# Natural Horsemanship - usefull or useless



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Just wondering on opinions. I read good things as well as opinions that it's nothing but ... (add whatever dirty words you wish  ). I personally tried Parelli and didn't like it much, however I started Clinton Anderson techniques recently with the problem mare, and they seem to be helping out (although progress is very-very slow). 

What I have to admit though Parelli, Clinton, etc. etc. have really amazing horses to demonstrate (like riding without bridle, turning and lunging free in field, and so on). I don't think those trainers run to the barn at nights (when noone see them) and use some different methods on those horses than they demonstrate to public. Lol!


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I started using parelli on my horse, but had to come to a stop when it got too cold outside for lessons and was moved into the indoor arena. I would work with her now, but the outdoor arenas are ice skating rinks, and the indoor is always flooded with people.

I have noticed a difference in her, but its been a while, so we lost a lot of what we did. 

I havent tried anyone else, so i cannot comment on them, but i do like Parelli.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Im all about getting things done quickly and efficently. Natural horsemanship in my opinion is a waste. It takes much much longer to teach a horse something. Quite frankly, for me it takes too long. Plus for me it doesn't work. Im not about all "connecting with the horse" and being "nice to the horse". No, if i want something done it better do it (that is if it knows better). I call Natural Horsemanship "beating around the bush" because really thats what your doing. You don't strike the horse what so ever, you don't use an artifical aids. Its a time waster. I have to have a horse completely trained for WP and EP by August. I don't have enough time to "back up the horse when it bites me". I hit it hard enough that it wont do it again. I forget which famous trainer said this but "Make the horse feel like its going to die for what it did and it will never do it again". Thats what i live by.


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

John Lyons said that, and he does use aspects of natural horsemanship in his method.

I believe in moderation. I wish you had a "Yes, I use it, but its a buzzword" option. Many of these methods have been used for centuries: enterprising trainers have just brought them to the mainstream and rebranded them as their own.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Ahhh Lyons. I figured, but i wasn't sure.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I use Parelli. But I would be *very* careful about who you call a "natural horseman." Pat in my opinion is a prime example of what a natural horseman SHOULD be. Troy Henry, Tom Dorrance, etc. are others, but IMO the majority of the other "natural horseman" these days are not natural horseman at all. NH has become a phrase that has been VERY over used and it's lost its TRUE meaning, which is why Parelli has taken out the Natural Horsemanship in it's name. They refer to it now as the Parelli Program. They don't want to be associated with the people who CLAIM to do NH but they really treat every horse the same, it's a cookie-cutter program and that simply does not work. Parelli does not do that. 

I love the Parelli program. I believe in what they teach and I've seen it work time and time again. It's for every horse, but it may not be for every *person.*


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## horsecrazy29 (Jan 14, 2008)

I lean more on John and Josh Lyons always have.
With that said, I take from other trainers as well, other *natural horsemanships*.

I like natural cause you don't have to have tons of fancy equipment and your working with the horses mind set.

Frankly if I don't have the patients to teach a horse slowly and thoroughly I don't have the business teaching a horse. 

I don't believe into beating a horse into submission, working it to death for respect. I gain it fair and square and its a relationship I will always have weather its MY horse or someone else's. I believe a horse truly can not have a solid ground to stand on if hes never learns the correct way of doing things, and learns it in a positive way.

I don't think anyone training works for everyone and I have no issue supplementing what I find easier and works easier for me.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Sara said:


> I believe in moderation. I wish you had a "Yes, I use it, but its a buzzword" option.


In fact I did (well, tried... ), but somehow it displayed only 2 after I submitted.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

> I don't believe into beating a horse into submission, working it to death for respect.


I agree with you horsecrazy. The people at my barn think that way, and they show and rarely do they place well. For me, the horse has to love what its doing, have its heart into it. If it doesn't, i think it shows. 

I rather spend a couple months or longer to train my horse to do something, rather than being rushed. for me, i rather have a horse that loves doing what its doing, rather than not.


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

I used to ride horses trained the "normal" way, you know, worked to death and scared into submission. They weren't nice horses. My horse was raised on Parelli, and I maintain him with Parelli and things are wonderful. He WANTS me to ride, he WANTS to play with me. Having your horse run up to you in the pasture and fight everyone else to get his head in the halter first is way cool. He drops his nose down it and wiggles it into his halter. I also love that he will go trotting up to the mounting block and wait for me to ride him, even if we aren't having a riding day. It's the most amazing thing ever.


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> Im all about getting things done quickly and efficently. Natural horsemanship in my opinion is a waste. It takes much much longer to teach a horse something. Quite frankly, for me it takes too long. Plus for me it doesn't work. Im not about all "connecting with the horse" and being "nice to the horse". No, if i want something done it better do it (that is if it knows better). I call Natural Horsemanship "beating around the bush" because really thats what your doing. You don't strike the horse what so ever, you don't use an artifical aids. Its a time waster. I have to have a horse completely trained for WP and EP by August. I don't have enough time to "back up the horse when it bites me". I hit it hard enough that it wont do it again. I forget which famous trainer said this but "Make the horse feel like its going to die for what it did and it will never do it again". Thats what i live by.



Ok, have you ever studied Natural Horsemanship? Becuase what you described wasn't it.

You can smack a horse in Natural Horsemanship. Haven't you ever seen Clinton Anderson, Pat Parelli, and Chris Cox? But beating a horse to dealth is unnecessary and cruel.

You don't make a horse do something. It just won't happen. You work with it. And if you don't want to take the time to work with it then sorry get a new hobby! :wink: 

No offense, but I would hate to see you "train" a horse.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I agree that "natural horsemanship" should be used carefully. But I meant methods of Parelli, Anderson, Lyons, and so on. In fact some "normal" trainer still can have "natural" approach, just without calling it that way. However I agree lunging horse to death in round pen so it won't have enough strength to even trot and then cowboy it is NOT good. I've seen such "trainer" training tiny not even 3 years old horse. OMG! The owner was happy about the trainer though.... Yaks.... When he tried to approach my qh (she was coming 2) I said NO WAY.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Sara said:


> Many of these methods have been used for centuries: enterprising trainers have just brought them to the mainstream and rebranded them as their own.


...and that's why I dont endorse it.

I did however vote that I use it. Obviously, not because I buy into all the trainers, but because everyone uses it on a daily basis, whether or not you think about it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I am willing to take the time it takes to put a good, proper foundation on a horse so that he will WANT to OFFER me things. I don't believe in making horses feel like they are going to die, that's the opposite effect I want to have! :wink: I want the horse to feel safe with me. If one says that in "NH" you never are firm with a horse, well, that person obviously does not know what they are talking about :roll: That's like me saying that everyone who doesn't follow NH beats their horses :lol: It's simply not true.


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

i voted for useful 
i dont know where we would be with our wb if we hadnt had some frank bell in the beginning. 

i believe its called 'natural horsemanship' because its about interacting with a horse on its level. its about doing things and teaching things in a way that the horse can understand. then you get a horse who has love and respect for you doing things not because hes afraid not to but because he wants to. a properly trained horse wont be doing things because he is afraid of getting whacked if he doesnt. essentially teaching a horse using scare tactics like hitting them isnt good unless you are talking about things like biting etc but when teaching riding, ground manners etc its really not necessary

but hey, thats just my opinion


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> I am willing to take the time it takes to put a good, proper foundation on a horse so that he will WANT to OFFER me things. I don't believe in making horses feel like they are going to die, that's the opposite effect I want to have! :wink: I want the horse to feel safe with me. If one says that in "NH" you never are firm with a horse, well, that person obviously does not know what they are talking about :roll: That's like me saying that everyone who doesn't follow NH beats their horses :lol: It's simply not true.


Couldn't have put it better!


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I used to smack my horse whenever she misbehaved. My boyfriend shot a video of my riding her one day, and she was being a brat, so i gave her a whack on her neck. I didn't think anything of it then until i saw the video. I was APPALLED at myself :!: For a few seconds after i could still see my hand print. After that i promised myself and Vega I would never hit her again.

If she does try to nip me, i either put up my elbow so she runs into that, or i bite her back on her neck (not literally, but i use my hands) She doesn't try to nip at me anymore, because it's just not fun.

At my stable, i have seen people to some pretty nasty things to their horses. I have seen people kick their horses in their stomachs to get them to move over, have seen people smack them on their face, because the tossed their head up. Or they will yank on the lead when a horse has an itch. The best is when the horse is standing, and being good, and they will yank on the lead a couple of times, the horse moves, and they yank again.

I agree there is a time to get tough with them, but i dont think you should have to make a horse submit to you, by beating it. I think there are plenty of other ways you can get a horse to submit without having to be violent.

That's just my opinion tho


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

I like any other practice horse person use element of NH in everyday activities with my ponies. I do not follow NH as such but i think that almost all people use it wether that is what they want to call it or not.


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

horse_luver4e said:


> .Delete. said:
> 
> 
> > Im all about getting things done quickly and efficently. Natural horsemanship in my opinion is a waste. It takes much much longer to teach a horse something. Quite frankly, for me it takes too long. Plus for me it doesn't work. Im not about all "connecting with the horse" and being "nice to the horse". No, if i want something done it better do it (that is if it knows better). I call Natural Horsemanship "beating around the bush" because really thats what your doing. You don't strike the horse what so ever, you don't use an artifical aids. Its a time waster. I have to have a horse completely trained for WP and EP by August. I don't have enough time to "back up the horse when it bites me". I hit it hard enough that it wont do it again. I forget which famous trainer said this but "Make the horse feel like its going to die for what it did and it will never do it again". Thats what i live by.
> ...


EXCUSE ME?
YOU MUST NOT HAVE SEEN THE HORSE SHE HAS TRAINED. BECAUSE I CAN GUARANTEE YOU HER HORSE IS BETTER THAN WHATEVER YOU HAVE TRAINED. HER HORSE HAPPENS TO BE A PHENOMENAL SHOW HORSE AND I'M NOT JUST SAYING THAT TO STICK UP FOR HER. I HAVE SEEN WHAT SHE HAS TRAINED. BACK OFF HER CASE.

please read the forums rules. talking in capitals constitutes yelling and thats not allowed here - jazzyrider


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

horse_luver4e said:


> You can smack a horse in Natural Horsemanship. Haven't you ever seen Clinton Anderson, Pat Parelli, and Chris Cox? But beating a horse to dealth is unnecessary and cruel.
> 
> You don't make a horse do something. It just won't happen. You work with it. And if you don't want to take the time to work with it then sorry get a new hobby! :wink:
> 
> No offense, but I would hate to see you "train" a horse.


EXCUSE ME? How dare you, that was just wrong. Just because i work with horses differently then you does not mean im bad at it. As far as making a horse do something. You bet your sorry butt i make my horse do something it doesn't want to do. And you know what? My horse still works for me. Yes i said it *for me*. I don't believe in "asking a horse to do something" i don't believe in "working problems out slowly". I believe showing the horse what i want it do. Makeing sure it understand what i want. It it refuses to do it from time to time *im going to make it.* So you don't make your horse do anything huh? So you let your horse get away with things? So tell me, lets say your horse refuses to set its head? Your just going to let it be like that? Let it walk all over you? So you "ask" it to put its head down. Either way your making the horse do it. Or you let your horse get away with everything. Does that make me a bad trainer? NO. I have sucessfully trained over 4 horses. 3 of which where mine and 2 where for other people. I have *tried* doing NH it doesn't work for me. So just because i like things done quickly and correctly does not make me a horrible trainer thank you.

*DID I SAY I BEAT THEM TO DEATH?* No. I did not. I punish them enough so they don't do it again and move on. 

Answer me this. Why in every single post we converse in together, why do you always jump at me? Do you have something against me? Am i too "cold" and "abusive" for you?[/b]


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

come on guys. lets not let this turn into yet another thread that slowly goes downhill because of differing opinions. once again, differing opinions is the winner of whats starting this crankiness. 

if someone says something you dont like, ignore it. everyone has the right to think what they want even if it makes you look bad. if you dont like it ignore if it really gets up your nose use the rude button to alert a mod but dont get into defending yourself. its like a dog chasing its tail...you just end up going round and round and round

can we get on with the thread now please


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Im sorry. But i defend myself when i get insulted.


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## I Love Lane (Dec 11, 2007)

Jazzy - I wonder if the dog has corn on its tail............... **** :twisted:


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

Yeesh...


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

> come on guys. lets not let this turn into yet another thread that slowly goes downhill because of differing opinions. once again, differing opinions is the winner of whats starting this crankiness.
> 
> if someone says something you dont like, ignore it. everyone has the right to think what they want even if it makes you look bad. if you dont like it ignore if it really gets up your nose use the rude button to alert a mod but dont get into defending yourself. its like a dog chasing its tail...you just end up going round and round and round
> 
> can we get on with the thread now please


I couldn't have said that any better.


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

I Love Lane said:


> Jazzy - I wonder if the dog has corn on its tail............... **** :twisted:


lol lane...maybe


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> Im sorry. But i defend myself when i get insulted.


and i know instinctively that is what everyone wants to do but you usually learn as you get older that you really dont need to defend yourself. allow others to have their opinions and dont give them the satisfaction of getting uptight and defending yourself. you have to remember than when you get defensive in a thread towards one person, everyone else reading the thread has to deal with that in some way because they have to read it. if someone insults you and you must say something, pm them then its kept out of public view


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> horse_luver4e said:
> 
> 
> > You can smack a horse in Natural Horsemanship. Haven't you ever seen Clinton Anderson, Pat Parelli, and Chris Cox? But beating a horse to dealth is unnecessary and cruel.
> ...


No I don't let my horse get away with everything! But I don't beat on her to get her to do something! You shouldn't talk bad about NH just becuase it doesn't work for you. You could have just said "I don't use NH becuase it doesn't work for me." Not crap you think is true which is insane. And why do you think I allways jump on your case? Oh maybe it's becuase your cold in most of your posts. Posting things like "do you hit your horses". I'm done fighting ok. You keep on but I'm done. I want to use this forum for info not posting things that you know will cause a fight just so you can say were whimpy trainers becuase we don't abuse our horses! :x 

I'm very sorry everyone. Can we get back to subject?


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Sorry.


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

I think that training a horse should never be about speed and time until the horse is ready and the rider is. I think training fast and wanting to get it over with is a little sloppy. No offense to ANYONE.  

I prefer to take my time to perfect things the Natural way. I have recently started studying complete Natural Horsemanship. With some I agree and some I don't. 

Everyone has a way they do things. :wink:


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Ok. Darling. I don't abuse my horses.


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> Ok. Darling. I don't abuse my horses.


I don't think you do. lol. 8)


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

BluMagic said:


> .Delete. said:
> 
> 
> > Ok. Darling. I don't abuse my horses.
> ...


Lol, Blu I'm thinking she was referring to horse_luvr.


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

Oh.  I wasn't sure. I was being cautious. lol. I'm a dork. 


Thanks...


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

BluMagic said:


> Oh.  I wasn't sure. I was being cautious. lol. I'm a dork.
> 
> 
> Thanks...



Ha, its cool.


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## alucard (Dec 8, 2006)

I think that a combo of both is good. If my horse bites me, I'm gonna do what another more aggressive horse would do...bite her back. Horses are all bluff (mostly) so when you act bigger, they usually back down.

I watched a video on youtube about some riders that were taught to whip their horses when they wouldn't go forward and to get them to stop they would do "sawing" on their mouths....violently pulling back and forth sometimes causing their mouths to bleed. Well....their horses looked terrified and they didn't do anything that their riders wanted them to. I think that's a little extreme...well rather I would love to put a bit in those rider's mouths and do that to them! And make them jump things and whip them when they don't do it right! 

But giving them carrots 24/7 and letting the horse walk all over you isn't right either and you'll end up getting hurt.

I like to sit in the middle, I communicate with my horse in a way that she and I both understand, and she's happy and wants to do anything I ask her so I'm happy. If I need to discipline her, I'll do it in a way that's not overboard, won't damage her or me, and she'll understand exactly what I'm doing and why.

But that's just my 2 cents!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I use NH everyday, but it's subconscious. I don't say I do Parelli stuff or Clinton Anderson stuff.. but I use horse language. When a horse is being hard to catch or bossy to me in the paddock, I act like a horse and chase it away until it wants to come to me. I use my body language as best as I can to tell the horse what I want. 

I don't have an opinion one way or t'other about it, I haven't tried any of the "buy it and use it" NH methods, I just go with what I've observed over the years


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## Feathers (Dec 22, 2007)

I think NH is good...but I like to sit in the middle too. I'm not into buying all of those NH discs and things. I wouldn't go too extreme on the natural side.

I would just like to try the most humane, effective, and rewarding methods for both myself and my horse. 

I have used some basic NH methods for ground work and they were very useful to get my horse to respect me. However, when it comes to driving, I haven't really heard of any NH methods...are there even such things? 

Different horses will listen and respond different to different methods. I would say, "whatever works best for that horse and rider"!


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

^^^ that is what it should come down to...what is best for the horse and the rider. although i do have to say, what could possibly work better for a horse than to communicate with it in a way it understands. if we could bark, dont you think we would be able to much better express our desire for our puppies not to pee on the carpet?? but we cant so we have to teach them in a way that they will understand. 

natural horsemanship methods should work on any horse. its not the method that doesnt work most of the time its the person who is trying to get the method across. as frank bell says "every horse can do natural horsemanship, but not every person can". i picked up some things and had them working well straight away where as my husband wasnt getting the same results as he didnt have his technique figured out. once he got that he was getting the same results as me.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I completely agree with jazzyrider. NH works with every horse because after all, it's natural to them. Those who say that NH is not natural to the horse at all don't understand that it's UN-NATURAL TO THE HUMAN. So when the program "doesn't work" it's so easy to blame the horse or blame the program......but some people never look at themselves. WE are the ones who have to change....not the horse. The horse is already perfect. He can do spins, piaffes, flying lead changes freely out in the pasture, but isn't it funny how the horse "can't do it" when WE come into the picture.....hmm, how interesting. Now that doesn't mean we say "You stupid horse, you can do this!" We should look at ourselves and ask, "Why is my horse not doing this? Why is he biting me? Why is he hard to catch? etc. etc." It's all because of US. I truly believe that's why a lot of people dislike NH (I'm talkin about Parelli, simply b/c that's the program I follow) because it forces them to look at themselves. It shows their weaknesses and their faults and they don't want to see it. It's much easier to smack the horse, blame and label them as biters, kickers, being a cranky mare, etc. 

If you show a horse leadership, TRUE leadership, you'll have a good thing going. A leader is someone who is empowering, fun, imaginative, compassionate, understanding, mentally and emotionally fit, confident, having a plan, skilled, knowledgable........so many things can describe a good leader. But someone who forces a horse to do something, pushes them too hard for the sake of their own personal goals, intimidates horses, critical, etc. is NOT a leader. Leadership is not about showing a horse who is boss, it's not about getting a horse to do something. Leadership is the horse trusting your every suggestion and trying his guts out FOR you because he WANTS to. Horses will jump higher and run faster out of heart and desire.


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

^^^ amen 

its good to have ya back


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Thanks jazzyrider


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## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

Well said Spirithorse.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

oops, must have just missed your post.......thanks AKPaintLover.


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## mell (Sep 5, 2007)

i havn't read the other posts but-

i think it is beneficial, but i think some people take it to far


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I do agree in most cases training is about us, not as much about the horse. When something goes wrong and either of my horses dont' understand what I'm asking from her I blame myself 100%. However some horses are smarter and pick up quicker than other, and many horses are just naturally lazy, so one has to "persuade" them to do something in the beginning. 

I was terrified when I watched Clinton's "Gaining respect on ground" for the first time. I mean he whacked them pretty good (btw to the words "natural" trainers don't hit the horses :lol: ). But it's funny but I tried his stick on my leg (for interest), and indeed it does sound pretty loud, but it doesn't hurt that much (well, I'm not good at whacking anyway...  ).


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

I think Natural Trainers hit their horses. It's a big point of "Natural". That's what horses do in the wild. They always have a rank. I watch the horses out at the fairgrounds when I am cooling Blu. They all have their own pecking order. Horses bite and kick eachother. I don't think hitting them......appropriately.......hurts as much. lol. :wink:


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## jemaineclement (Feb 13, 2008)

very useful, teaches a horse the very kind way instead of the horrible hitting way.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Okay, I may be opening a can of worms (but hopefully we all can stay mature about it :wink: ) but I will beg to differ on "NH" people (again I'm speaking from Parelli b/c that's who I follow) HITTING their horses. To me, hitting is going out of your way to strike the horse, either with your hand, whip, etc. It's meant as a punishment and it's an aggressive act on the human's part. It's emotional. Everyone knows that a smack from a human will not hurt the horse, and we see horses biting and kicking eachother, right? BUT......what the horse PRECIEVES is where I come from on this issue. The horse is a prey animal, we are a predator, two totally differnt ways of thinking. When we actually hit a horse he precieves us as acting predatorial and will either become afraid and skeptical or he will continue the behavior b/c he's turning it into a game. And everytime the person hits the horse, the horse wins the game! Have you ever seen a "biter" bite the person and then pull his head away quickly to avoid the smack? That horse has turned it into a game. 

What Parelli teaches is to give the horse AMPLE opportunity to get out of the way, say from the stick, and if they choose not to they run into the stick. Did I go out of my way to hit him? No, I gave him the choice. I'm basically telling the horse, "Here comes the stick, you better move!" And if he doesn't then it's like I'm saying, "Oops, you didn't get out of the way in time!" Some horses will actually go INTO the pressure (that is their nature) but am I hitting the horse? No, he is CHOOSING to do that. So in this way the horse blames HIMSELF for what happened, he doesn't blame me and he didn't precieve the negative action that happened as a result of his choice to be something that I did TO him. It's that reverse psychology!


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> What Parelli teaches is to give the horse AMPLE opportunity to get out of the way, say from the stick, and if they choose not to they run into the stick. Did I go out of my way to hit him? No, I gave him the choice. I'm basically telling the horse, "Here comes the stick, you better move!" And if he doesn't then it's like I'm saying, "Oops, you didn't get out of the way in time!" Some horses will actually go INTO the pressure (that is their nature) but am I hitting the horse? No, he is CHOOSING to do that. So in this way the horse blames HIMSELF for what happened, he doesn't blame me and he didn't precieve the negative action that happened as a result of his choice to be something that I did TO him. It's that reverse psychology!


This is glorified hitting, and it was one of the reason I chose to leave NH behind. Now, I'm not having a go at you Spirit, I'm just going to let you know what I think. 

My horse does have a choice, and it's a constant thing. At any given time he could bight me or misbehave in a million different ways. As soon as he does it, he has, as you say, chosen to run into my lead rope or he has chosen to have himself backed and then set up, and then made to stand still for a period. There's no in between time. If I ask him to do something, and he doesn't do it, he gets a very swift reminder, and then I let the issue drop. 

I guess I'm trying to say that Parelli, or anybody else, does make it sound wonderful with their "it was the horse's choice" justification, but they don't do anything different than the rest of us. 

You hit your horse, and just because you follow Parelli, it doesn't mean that your horse ran into it, while our horses are victims. We both either went out of our way to hit the horse, or we both have horses that make choices that result in punishment.

Just because you state your case cleverly, it doesn't make the deed any more justified than someone else who does the same thing. This is how lawyers make their money, incidentally.

I'm not trying to call you a hypocrite, but I am still wondering when NH people are going to come off their moral high horse and recognize that we share a common set of techniques.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Well said, Spirit. I completely agree. It's not about coming to horse and start whacking it. They have lots of opportunities to avoid it first as pressure increases with time. As well as for backing up, if the horse doesn't want to back up, it "runs" in the stick. 

I've seen once the trainer (John Lyons certified) teaching the abused horse (horse, which was beat up to death with whip before she came to the rescue) to load the trailer. When she tried to bull him and push him from the way he gave her one short good smack right away. Guess what? The horse wasn't scared or anything AT ALL. No pinned ears, no pulling away, no fear of the stick. But(!) she didn't try to do it anymore. Comparable to 4 hours rescue spent to load and bring horse in, he spent 20 mins to make her load HERSELF. All I can say I just had no words.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I love how you put that Tim =O


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

tim- I know you aren't trying to call me out. I expected this when I posted my view. 

I do not believe I'm a hypocrite. Now if I smacked a horse for trying to bite, I WOULD be a hypocrite. But I never have horses try to bite me, even when their owners say they are nippy. It goes back to the leadership thing.......horses WILL NOT bite you if they think you are alpha. 

We are all intitled to our own opinions. So if me thinking that I don't smack horses puts me on a high horse, well, that's fine.  My horses sure don't seem to mind. After all, THEY are the ones I'm trying to impress.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I must comment on the "I ask my horse thing" What if you horse says "no" to your "question". What then? Do you let it get away with not doing what you asked?


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> What if you horse says "no" to your "question".


There is actually a saying: "If your horse says no, then you either asked the question wrong, or asked the wrong question."


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Amen to that LuLu!  

Once you fix yourself the horse will do anything for you.


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## Bucky's Buddy (Jan 27, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> I use NH everyday, but it's subconscious. I don't say I do Parelli stuff or Clinton Anderson stuff.. but I use horse language. When a horse is being hard to catch or bossy to me in the paddock, I act like a horse and chase it away until it wants to come to me. I use my body language as best as I can to tell the horse what I want.
> 
> I don't have an opinion one way or t'other about it, I haven't tried any of the "buy it and use it" NH methods, I just go with what I've observed over the years


I have not had tons of hands on experience with NH, but what I get from it is it's all about the language you speak. I have trained a few dogs and it's the same concept (different language, but same concept). When the dog does something wrong or doesn't respond to the "question" correctly there has to be a negative reaction from the alpha. With dogs, the alpha would growl, nip at the nape of the neck and even take hold of the nape of the neck and push the offender to the ground if the offense was bad enough to warrant that. I think with horses, it's the same thing. As the alpha, which is what you need to make yourself if you want respect and correct responses, you need to give negative feedback when they are misbehaving. Whether that be a nip, charging you in the paddock, or not responding to your aids. I think what NH is trying to teach is how to communicate in that all important "herd" language. I have seen how horses treat each other in the pasture and it's brutal :twisted: ! I'm sorry, but a horse has way too much power against us and we will never "make" a horse do anything, so in a way we are always using NH, but the question is do we communicate in a way that makes us seem as the alpha all the time or do we bully them only occasionally and they humor us because they don't feel like fighting back? If a horse can feel a fly land on it's back in the field, we don't need to strike or hit our horses. We need to learn how to effectively apply "pressures" that they submit to, it's all in how we ask. What language are you speaking? It takes alot of time to train a dog effectively and you are never "done"! It's the same way with horses. Training is a relationship that is built daily whenever you are in contact with the animal and if you are not in contact with them daily you will never achieve that relationship.

WOW! What a soap box! I think, as in everything in life, there needs to be a balance. I think NH has alot to teach about communication with the animal in his own language, but I personally don't have time to be out with the horses I work with everyday. They don't live with me and I don't own them, I don't even feed them, someone else does. So, I will never have the relationship I want with them right now. So, I depend on training equipment, and gadgets to achieve the results I want, but I'm sure gonna let them know with abundant praise when they're doing the "right thing"!  OK! I'll get down now.............. :wink:


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## Cowgirl74 (Feb 14, 2008)

Natural Horsemanship has been around for years and years. Communicating with a horse in a way that the horse understands. Especially through the use of body language. At the same time using patience and understanding to teach the horse what you are trying to train it to do.

What I don't like about today's NH is that its all become a money making scheme. What is so natural about a stick with a string on the end of it? How many horses do you see in the pasture bouncing a big blue ball off each other? Where on a trail, or anywhere else for that matter, have you ever seen a horse standing there with a tarp over it? Its glorified trick training, and people are paying through the nose for it. Yes, desensitize your horse, but do it with things that they will see every day.

Todays NH "trainers" say that by following their program you develop an equal partnership/relationship with your horse. The horse gets a say in everything. Yada yada yada. Horses do not ever function in a herd as an equal to another horse. They are either above or below the horse next to them. Its a natural pecking order. They need a leader, not a buddy.

I do agree with natural horsemanship, but REAL natural horsemanship. Not this money making, gimmic selling, foolishness that's selling for who knows how much.


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## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

Cowgirl, 

I get where you are coming from, but I live in Alaska, and there are jokes here about our use of blue tarps (and incidentally, duct tape). For me, desensitizing to tarps is a really good idea. You never know where you will encounter one blowing about, flapping in the wind, used to cover something the horse must walk near. We like to put tarps on and around our jumps to add to the "scariness", so that nothing surprises the horse at the shows. Funny as it seems, the "backyard" jumper class last year included a jump with a tarp over it.


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## Bucky's Buddy (Jan 27, 2008)

:lol: I totally identify with the "tarp" thing, here in Southern Oregon we got alot o' tarps in all colors! I agree with you, too, Cowgirl, there is minimal to no equality in any species, even our own! Somebody's always on top and the totem pole just decends from there! Those who make top $ for training programs are part of that totem pole too. There is definately a place for communicating with a horse in his language and I think for our own safety we need to make ourselves the alpha. So, however you look at it NH is real and I do like certain aspects of it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Horses don't need to use sticks to communicate. We do. The stick acts as an extension of your body. Horses have long bodies, people have tall bodies. With a stick you can be longer and taller then a horse. Even people who don't follow NH use a lunge whip, so what's the big deal?

Getting horses used to balls, tarps, etc. are SIMULATIONS for real events that could very well happen. Like standing on a pedestal. The horse has to do that SAME THING when he loads into a trailer, but without the squeeze from side to side and above him. It prepares the horse. And why not get our horses used to those kinds of things? It just makes them safer, IMO.

It's important that the horse knows he has a say in something.......to an extent. Iv'e heard Pat say, "Cause your idea to become your horse's idea, but understand his idea first." There is so much truth in that statement. If you don't understand your horse's idea then you are just a dictator and soon the horse won't even express his emotions because the person never listens or they always shut it down.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> Amen to that LuLu!
> 
> Once you fix yourself the horse will do anything for you.


Thanks Spirithorse  

It's true though isn't it? There is always a reason why the horse says "no".


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## Cowgirl74 (Feb 14, 2008)

In the case where your horses frequently come across tarps, well in that case it would be something to desensitize your horse to.

Yes, we use lungewhips in training. But what's the difference in a carrot stick? Well, I bought my lunge whip for 9 bucks. The "Carrot Stick" sells for $35.65 and if you want the string, you have to toss in an extra $19.49 (a whopping 6 ft string). That comes to $55.14. For a lunge whip?!?!?! A 22 foot piece of "Prefessional Line" costs $66.70!!!! Its frigging yacht rope that I can buy that at the local hardware store for about 50 cents a foot!

And people argue that its all about the relationship with your horse? Nope. It's all about the almighty dollar.

I use NH all the time in training my horses. If I'm going to teach my horse to load onto a trailer, I use a trailer, not a stool. I teach them with patience and understanding. And I let my horse tell me when they are ready and how far they want to go that training session. I don't use whips or crops or anything like that. I like rope halters as much as the next person. I buy mine at the local feed store. The same ones that NH "Trainers" use, but mine costs 20 bucks, not $31.05. 

What I don't do is spend hundreds of dollars on gimmicks and videos to establish a relationship with my horse. I use common sense, and the form of NH thats been around for hundreds of years. Not the type of NH that someone all of a sudden decided to make a video about and sell it for $249 bucks a course or level or whatever they call it. 

What I'm saying is, by all means, use NH with your horse. Its a wonderful way to train them and earn their respect. You don't need to follow these so call "trainers" to do it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Until you use Parelli's equipment you will never understand the quality of communication you can have while using the tools. It's much more refined.

And why not start the horse out easy with trailer loading then by standing on a pedestal? I think it prepares the horse even better for the actual trailer. I never make it about the object I'm working with. It's not about the trailer, creek, whatever. it's about the horse's confidence.


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## Deb (Feb 12, 2008)

I must comment on the "I ask my horse thing" What if you horse says "no" to your "question". What then? Do you let it get away with not doing what you asked?	



You make the same request but with a little more pressure. You want your horse to move away from pressure right? and the preference is that it only take a whisper of pressure. So the first time you "ask", you use a whisper of pressure. If he ignores you, you ask again, but with more pressure and so on, increasing it in increments until it gets uncomfortable for him to refuse. Horses want to be comfortable and there will come a point where he realizes that if he doesn't do what your telling, the pressure will increase and he'll be uncomfortable. The point here is that you are giving him an opportunity to give in before it gets to that point.

A group of horses settling things amonst themselves do this. They understand the lingo. So first a dropped head and pinned ears. And if that don't work, the teeth next and if that still doesn't get the point across, then the hooves fly. You can bet the next time that dominant horse drops his head and pins his ears, the other horse gets out of his way. Now he only has to use light pressure.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Deb said:


> You make the same request but with a little more pressure. You want your horse to move away from pressure right? and the preference is that it only take a whisper of pressure. So the first time you "ask", you use a whisper of pressure. If he ignores you, you ask again, but with more pressure and so on, increasing it in increments until it gets uncomfortable for him to refuse. Horses want to be comfortable and there will come a point where he realizes that if he doesn't do what your telling, the pressure will increase and he'll be uncomfortable. The point here is that you are giving him an opportunity to give in before it gets to that point.
> 
> A group of horses settling things amonst themselves do this. They understand the lingo. So first a dropped head and pinned ears. And if that don't work, the teeth next and if that still doesn't get the point across, then the hooves fly. You can bet the next time that dominant horse drops his head and pins his ears, the other horse gets out of his way. Now he only has to use light pressure.


But eventually your making the horse do it unless your going to let your horse get away with not doing it. So really saying your "asking" your horse to do something and "not forcing it to do anything" isn't completely true. In the end either you make your horse do it wether it wants to or not, or you let your horse get away with it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

*Making* a horse do something takes away the horse's choice and sometimes their dignity. Like tie downs, it MAKES a horse carry his lead lower even if he can't, say for physical reasons. People who push their horses across a creek if the horse is balking are MAKING the horse do it even though the horse is saying he's unconfident about it. Making a horse do something does not preserve their confidence and with some horses if you MAKE them do things they don't want to they get crabby and sometimes it can get up to aggression. But who can blame them?

If a horse doesn't do something when I ask it's either because 1) I asked the question wrong, 2) he's unconfident, or 3) he's just being snotty lol. For number 3 it's a respect issue. But I'm not going to say, "You rotten horse, you WILL do this!" The horse already doesn't respect me, so how would making him and being forceful get him to respect me? It won't. Respect is earned, not given or demanded. So now I would make a game out of this situation with this particular horse. Usually these kinds of horses see no incentive for them at all. There's nothing in it for them. So by using rest, scratches, or food as INCENTIVE, NOT BRIBE, to motivate the horse they WILLINGLY put more effort into what I'm asking. With horses it's not a take take take take relationship. We have to give back to the horse. If we don't that's when you see issues appear like a horse that's hard to catch, is cranky when you ride, cinchy, bucks, gate/barn sour, etc. 

Just my perspective


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Either way, your not going to let the horse get away with it. I think by saying you /asking/ the horse sounds nicer then saying /this horse is going to do what i say/ But really, its all the same thing. But thats just my opinion.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

That's fine, just a matter of perspective.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> *Making* a horse do something takes away the horse's choice and sometimes their dignity. Like tie downs, it MAKES a horse carry his lead lower even if he can't, say for physical reasons. People who push their horses across a creek if the horse is balking are MAKING the horse do it even though the horse is saying he's unconfident about it. Making a horse do something does not preserve their confidence and with some horses if you MAKE them do things they don't want to they get crabby and sometimes it can get up to aggression. But who can blame them?
> 
> If a horse doesn't do something when I ask it's either because 1) I asked the question wrong, 2) he's unconfident, or 3) he's just being snotty lol. For number 3 it's a respect issue. But I'm not going to say, "You rotten horse, you WILL do this!" The horse already doesn't respect me, so how would making him and being forceful get him to respect me? It won't. Respect is earned, not given or demanded. So now I would make a game out of this situation with this particular horse. Usually these kinds of horses see no incentive for them at all. There's nothing in it for them. So by using rest, scratches, or food as INCENTIVE, NOT BRIBE, to motivate the horse they WILLINGLY put more effort into what I'm asking. With horses it's not a take take take take relationship. We have to give back to the horse. If we don't that's when you see issues appear like a horse that's hard to catch, is cranky when you ride, cinchy, bucks, gate/barn sour, etc.
> 
> Just my perspective


Look up determinism.

ITS THE SAME THING!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Like I said tim, it's *my* perspective.


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## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

There are a few topics on here that seem to go round and round and round. This must be one of them.  

Just remember to play nice everyone.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> Like I said tim, it's *my* perspective.


Or _is_ it...?? :shock: 

Lol nevermind. No that's cool, really. As long as you don't objectify it with some sort of "better-than-your-training-methods" argument, I have no problems.


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

If I ASK my horse a question and he doesn't REPLY. I ASK again. I will only ASK him three times and if he doesn't get it...I am either ASKING wrong or he doesn't know what I want so I TELL him to do it or I TEACH him. 

(sorry for the caps. I am just exagerating. )






edited for spelling


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Yes tim, it IS my perspective :wink: :lol: 

BluMagic is right on.


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

i cant believe this thread is still going on :roll: 

the way i see natural horsemanship is this: its very similar to having a child. when a child is really little they have no understanding of words, emotions or right & wrong. these are all things we need to train our children and our horses to get the behaviour and respect we deserve as the dominant factor in the relationship. if a child is shown things in a way that he doesnt understand then we must find a way to teach him so that he will learn and come to understand what we are asking of him/her. if we go about beating them every time they dont understand something they will end up resentful and afraid.

even though babies and young children are humans they still havent yet learnt our language and associations between words so we teach them in a loving gentle way. this forms a basis for trust and respect. 

while i will physically discipline my horses under certain circumstances, i only do so under extreme circumstances. a responsible parent would hardly discipline their child physically when they are teaching it something and it doesnt understand. 

the whole point is about teaching our horses with love and patience rather than a short temper and even shorter patience. it really gets me annoyed when i hear someone say they dont have time for gentle methods. they just want the job done then and there. if you dont have the time to teach a horse properly then either a) you need to find another less demanding hobby or b) have only enough horses that you can afford to spend the time with. lack of time is by no means an excuse for taking a 'short cut' with training. there are no short cuts to the right training. short cuts lead to problems. even if the horse seems to be doing what he is told after receiving the flogging of a lifetime that does not mean that the horse has learnt anything. all he has learnt is that he is gunna get his butt kicked if he doesnt do it. eventually though he will get sick of this and bigger problems can arise. a horse should do something because he has learnt how to do it and he wants to please you not because hes afraid that if he doesnt do it he is going to get a whoppin'. although a lead stallion uses physical "discipline" to control others, it isnt repetitive and its done in a way that teaches the other horse that he is to respect the leader. the only time he gets punished is if he challenges that authority.

i wasnt going to make this a long post but apparently i have failed there lol my wish is that people who are against NH could understand it at least and appreciate it for what it is regardless of how it has been represented by certain people. and also that in many ways, ALL of us use NH is some way shape or form every day. and for those who are right into NH to understand that not everyone takes such a passive approach as others. everyone has their own way of dealing with things and their own interpretations of what everything is. neither way is better than the other to a certain degree. i believe approaching things in the most natural way possible is a great way to go but i dont live by NH. everyone is different and sees the pros and cons in everything differently according to their own views etc doesnt mean i agree with whacking your horse as part of training but its also not my place to question people too much. in the end everyone is going to do their own thing.


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## Delregans Way (Sep 11, 2007)

> i wasnt going to make this a long post but apparently i have failed there lol


lol i enjoyed the read :lol: :lol: I totally agree with Spirthorse and you Jazzy...very well said  

But remember there is no wrong and right answer guys :? Keep that in mind


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> Yes tim, it IS my perspective :wink: :lol:
> 
> BluMagic is right on.


Hehe. Thank you! :twisted:


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## Deb (Feb 12, 2008)

[
But eventually your making the horse do it unless your going to let your horse get away with not doing it. So really saying your "asking" your horse to do something and "not forcing it to do anything" isn't completely true. In the end either you make your horse do it wether it wants to or not, or you let your horse get away with it.	
_________________
.Delete. ]


It is a funny thing about these forums, using a certain word seems to get people all freaked out, where as using another word for the same idea gets a pass. Asking, telling....you're right Delete, it is really all the same. But I think that those who have started the use of that word as they train people to teach their horses, felt that in order to move folks away from a heavy handed attitude with their animals, thought that it might help to change the language used. "Ask" conveys a certain respect and consideration for your animal and might suggest that it is necessary to wait just a brief moment for compliance due to the human/animal language barrier. Keep in mind that where you are likely fair and honest with your horses when teaching, not everyone starts out with the same attitude.


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## Deb (Feb 12, 2008)

It sounds like Spirithorse has studied the Parelli techniques and enjoyed the results with her horse. I also used them a lot with my two horses years ago, and it really helped me and my little girl to get on the same wave length with them. The one mare is very stubborn, and doesn't like to do what she is "told" and the other is willing, but tends to get quite flustered when she doesn't understand. And my daughter, who was a little girl at the time, was riding the stubborn horse. Eleven years old and skinny as a little toothpick, she needed an angle to deal with that horse. We found that the "games" helped immensely and where Ambra started out being quite pleased to just ignore her regularly, after a time she started to give her a somewhat grudging respect. This in turn gave my daughter a bit of room to learn to ride and in time, she became a pretty good rider for her weight class. But I can remember many an afternoon prior to the "games" where I walked around the ring leading them because my little girl was afraid to be there by herself. I am not exagerating when I say the horse was/is stubborn and cranky.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

I was one of the few who voted the second option in the vote. Only did so because it was pertaining a bit more to me and my horses.

Natural horsemenship does wonders if that is what you dedicate yourself to. I think it's personal preference what YOU decide to do and you think works best for your horse. No matter what technique you use to traine you horse(s) whether you or not you realise probably uses a certain amount of natural horsemanship.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I also chose the other option in the poll. Only because i feel we are all aiming at the same idea no matter how much you re-word it.


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Oh my gosh are you guys still picking at this thread? Who cares if you use natural horsemanship? Gosh get on with it! :roll:


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Its a good topic


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Yeah right. A good topic to fight about. :roll:


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

My2Geldings said:


> No matter what technique you use to traine you horse(s) whether you or not you realise probably uses a certain amount of natural horsemanship.





.Delete. said:


> I also chose the other option in the poll. Only because i feel we are all aiming at the same idea no matter how much you re-word it.


Couldn't agree with you guys more, but I did choose the first option. I think M2G said it well. Whether or not you realize it, you are probably using techniques that have been _labeled_ Natural as a result of the growing popularity of the natural training vocabulary and the influence of certain trainers.

Natural Horsemanship is by no means a new and original perspective. If you define it the way I do, then people have always been using it with their horses. The difference is that the name has been applied to a lot of new programs that appeal to people's sense of nuance by twisting the language a bit and throwing in some strange new tools.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

horse_luver4e said:


> Oh my gosh are you guys still picking at this thread? Who cares if you use natural horsemanship? Gosh get on with it! :roll:


What are YOU doing coming in this topic then. Perhaps YOU should move on with it :wink:


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

My2Geldings said:


> horse_luver4e said:
> 
> 
> > Oh my gosh are you guys still picking at this thread? Who cares if you use natural horsemanship? Gosh get on with it! :roll:
> ...


I'm not the one fighting back and forth. :wink:


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> I'm not the one fighting back and forth. :wink:


Don't do that to this topic, please. If you don't want to discuss it further, ignore it. Don't tell us to stop discussing something when there are many topics that you've perpetuated beyond belief.


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## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Calm down. I'm just trying to say that this topic seems to keep going in circles. :?


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

i don't think it's going in circles. More people are joining in with their views on natural horsemanship.

I use Parelli and i really like it. My fiance on the other hand, is like "this is all common sense" and yes it is. I just didn't know what to do with my horse, she's 4, spooks at a lot, hates stopping, and was a real handful. Now that i have a game plan, i find it easier. It all just comes down to personal preference of what you like to do. Some people just know what to do, where as others need a little bit of guidance.


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## Delregans Way (Sep 11, 2007)

Its not going around in circles, there are just alot of people who have very strong opinions... :roll:


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

i replied to this this morning but my reply is gone ((

horseluver - its not really going around in circles as we have heaps of new members who are giving their opinions as well. as long as it stays friendly it can keep going


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## Cheval (Jan 1, 2008)

I would love to use it in my training. I think that it's really a great way to bond, however some methods like Parrelli are very expensive.


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

In natural horsemanship you NEVER make your horse do anything. Sure you keep pushing harder and harder on their side until you cant and then you just hold it there until they move but if the horse really didn't want to move he'd plow you over in an instant. ITS A HORSE. After a while he says "Hey your idea sounds great!" and he hops over and then finds relief. Soon he begins to find out what this is all about. It eventually turns into a game of "Whats she going to ask me to do next?" On the ground and pretty soon in the saddle. Its now you get a light responsive and attentive horse. Not a pushbutton pony.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> Oh my gosh are you guys still picking at this thread? Who cares if you use natural horsemanship? Gosh get on with it! :roll:


I'm not sure about picking or fighting. So far people just expressed the opinions in nice way (whether they agree or disagree). Personally I found it very interesting to read, because "both sides" brought up very good points...


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Abby said:


> In natural horsemanship you NEVER make your horse do anything. Sure you keep pushing harder and harder on their side until you cant and then you just hold it there until they move but if the horse really didn't want to move he'd plow you over in an instant. ITS A HORSE. After a while he says "Hey your idea sounds great!" and he hops over and then finds relief. Soon he begins to find out what this is all about. It eventually turns into a game of "Whats she going to ask me to do next?" On the ground and pretty soon in the saddle. Its now you get a light responsive and attentive horse. Not a pushbutton pony.


But again, what if the horses says no? What do you do then? Let it get away with ignoring your ''question''?


I personally feel we are all aiming for the same thing. We are all doing the same things. Training a horse or working with a horse. No matter how much you re-word it no matter how much to say its a /nicer/ way to do things that you have the horse decide if it wants to do it or not. Its not like your going to let the horse say no anyways. Your going to continue /asking/ till the horse responds. Either that or your horse is walking all over you. One person says they command their horse to do something, others say they ask. I say you both are doing the same thing. Eventually wether you like to accept it or not your going to /make/ your horse do something. Wether is making your horse stand, move forward, or back up. Or in NH terms you horse is going to say /ok/.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Pushbutton isn't a bad thing either.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> One person says they command their horse to do something, others say they ask.


I do ASK my paint to do something, however I do COMMAND my qh to do something. They are different horses with VERY different personalities and what is acceptable to qh (yes, I can go to the point I have to use stick pretty firmly) I don't do to paint even she doesn't do things right. Not because I love one and don't love other one.  Simply because paint can't understand quickly what is asked (hm, well she's more on stupid side lol!) while qh intentionally try to avoid the work sometime (she picks up VERY quickly unlike the paint).


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Thats not what im trying to say! Im saying we are all doing the same things, you are eventually going to get your paint to do what you want it do no matter how much you re-word it. Its all the same.


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## Abby (Nov 26, 2007)

.Delete. said:


> Abby said:
> 
> 
> > In natural horsemanship you NEVER make your horse do anything. Sure you keep pushing harder and harder on their side until you cant and then you just hold it there until they move but if the horse really didn't want to move he'd plow you over in an instant. ITS A HORSE. After a while he says "Hey your idea sounds great!" and he hops over and then finds relief. Soon he begins to find out what this is all about. It eventually turns into a game of "Whats she going to ask me to do next?" On the ground and pretty soon in the saddle. Its now you get a light responsive and attentive horse. Not a pushbutton pony.
> ...


If they plow through me and ignore me, I keep the pressure on until I get even the slightest try to my goal. If the horse rams into my I try my best to keep my pressure steady but If I fall over its no big deal, I get up dust myself off and go right back to where I was, or if the horse starts stepping into me I step into them as hard as they did me if not a little more, and I do it instantly to show them that is not what I wanted. I reprimand them like a horse would another horse, I respond instantly and equally. I am in the end making or persuading the horse to do my bidding I am however, giving the horse PLENTY of time to make the right choice before things get ugly, and lead horses do the same thing which is why its called Natural Horsemanship not nice horsemanship. Horses are jerks to each other flat and simple. The only difference is people hold grudges while horses don't. They don't stare at the fat little pony and go "Oh your that stupid horse that bit me last week. Feel revenge!" and attack them they do it when it happens and then its over with. People should to the same thing and thats what NHS is about. I'm not saying other training is bad or mean, some other trainers that don't call them self NHS Trainers do the same thing, they respond immediately and accordingly and others try to convince you that you have to constantly make the horse submit, if the horse isn't fighting there is no reason to "make yourself the boss." Not all trainers are like that but some are.

I have to admit that some NHS is bullcrap, total bullcrap through and through. I support Parelli and use some of his methods but heres one thing I don't do. I DON'T buy his DVDs I don't buy his ropes, halters, items any of it. Why? because he charges way to dang much! Its ridiculous. rope's don't cost that much and I don't care if it says Parelli or Clinton Anderson or BIlly Bob, a yacht rope is a dang yacht rope. A rope halter is a rope halter. A bareback pad is a freaking bareback pad! I don't care what he says. I do my OWN natural horsemanship training based on horse communication. I'm more of a Monty Roberts fan to be honest, and all he is is polite.

All and all NHS is a personal preference. Its like shoes, some people fit into a size 8 and some don't. There is no common between. Sometimes there is an 7.5 that can squeeze into an 8 now and again where they could go either way but honestly either it works for you or it doesn't.

edit- woo this was the 100th post for this topic... and sorry for the length.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Abby, I do agree with a lot of what you are saying.  Nicely put.

I will say that all rope halters are not created equal. At the tack store I work at we have some rope halters that are CRAP! I mean, completely useless pieces of junk. Parelli's on the other hand are of amazing quality and when you compare a normal rope halter with their rope halter, the difference is amazing.....the communication is so much more clear. Sure their prices on some things are expensive, but no one ever said horses were cheap :wink: I'm fortunate enough to know a man who makes rope halters, lead ropes, reins, etc. out of the same stuff Parelli makes their equipment out of, so I buy that kinda stuff from him. He's cheaper and doesn't charge a shipping fee :lol: I will say this, Parelli's shipping fee is OUTRAGEOUS :shock:


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

To all the natural horsemanship people out there:

You say that when you ask your horse to do something, you add pressure and keep it on until the horse responds to your request, right?

So what do you think the rest of us do? Pressure and release is the most omniscient governing force of our universe. When we "make" our horses do something, we add pressure and keep it there until the horse responds. There's nothing different. There is really no other way. Honest.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

"Making" a horse do something is without concern for the horse's perspective and without proper knowledge of horse psychology and not being able to read a horse correctly. Sometimes people think the horse is being "disrespectful" or "testing them" or "being stubborn" when really the horse is unconfident about the situation. So when they keep adding pressure on they are actually MAKING the horse do something when really they should retreat and figure out WHY the horse isn't responding. Usually you see people MAKE horses do things when they have very little knowledge (they don't know any better), when they're frustrated, angry, etc, or when they've been told "You need to show that horse who's boss."


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> "Making" a horse do something is without concern for the horse's perspective and without proper knowledge of horse psychology and not being able to read a horse correctly. Sometimes people think the horse is being "disrespectful" or "testing them" or "being stubborn" when really the horse is unconfident about the situation. So when they keep adding pressure on they are actually MAKING the horse do something when really they should retreat and figure out WHY the horse isn't responding. Usually you see people MAKE horses do things when they have very little knowledge (they don't know any better), when they're frustrated, angry, etc, or when they've been told "You need to show that horse who's boss."


Ok, Ok, that makes more sense now. Thank you. But still, I will tell you, you're really not the only ones who take these things into consideration when you train a horse. Most evolved humans know that the fastest way to solve a problem is to go to the source. Not beat it to death with a club. So, when I have a problem, lets say with pivoting under saddle, I don't just try to make my horse pivot by kicking harder and harder, and pulling his face off. It just isn't going to happen. So I go back to basics. I take it from the ground up. I would say, maybe he just never learned how to pivot properly in the first place. I then work on his pivoting in hand where I can make myself more clear with ...DARE I SAY IT?? some essentially natural techniques involving pressure in the right spots. Then once he's got that down, I move to more subtle cues until I can finally get the point across under saddle with less frustration on both our parts.

Actually, what I just described is really how I taught my horse to pivot and it didn't take all that long.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

At my barn, those are the people that will kick harder to make a horse do something. They will yank on a horse and do other things when the horse has no clue. They don't take the time to each the horse on the ground before moving on the saddle. They seem to expect every horse (even the young ones) to know exactly what to do. That is what really turned me to Parelli. I couldn't go to them to ask for help, because all i would get is "Just smack her if she does this"

My fiance's horse used to just stop dead when we were leading him. Whether it be in a halter, or bridle. We asked a trainer there what to do, and she said to just smack him every time he stops. My fiance didn't like it at all, so he would just go a certain distance and when the horse stopped, he'd change directions. That worked out a lot better than hitting him every time he stopped. 

I'm not saying that everyone who doesn't use NH does this to their horses, but that's just the experience i have with people who don't use it.
I really wish i could show you what they do the horses and i'm sure no one would agree with what they do.


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## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

appylover31803 said:


> At my barn, those are the people that will kick harder to make a horse do something. They will yank on a horse and do other things when the horse has no clue. They don't take the time to each the horse on the ground before moving on the saddle. They seem to expect every horse (even the young ones) to know exactly what to do. That is what really turned me to Parelli. I couldn't go to them to ask for help, because all i would get is "Just smack her if she does this"


Well, yea. Those are the people who just don't need to own or ride horses. They're ignorant.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

> Well, yea. Those are the people who just don't need to own or ride horses. They're ignorant.


yes. And they also owned both our horses. They owned Gem longer than Vega, so Gem is more damaged. 
But that's why i do spend the money on Parelli, and all of his other things. Where or not it works for everyone, it works for me and my horse and that's all that matters.

But just as there are many ways to train other animals, there are a million ways to train a horse. Not everyone will agree with it, but if it works for you than that's all that should matter.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

tim, I know "we" aren't the only ones who take the things I listed into consideration. I by no means think that a non-NH trainer is cruel or unknowledgable, some are, but some aren't. And with your pivoting situation, I would have done the same thing  

Here's another twist.......not all people who study NH are good examples of how the program should be executed! I can't tell you how irritated I get when I see someone "doing Parelli" with a horse and it's VERY hard to watch. They are bad examples of the program. That's when people say "Parelli doesn't work with every horse." Well yes it does, it just doesn't work for every PERSON. I like the one that goes like this, "The Parelli horses I've seen are the most rude, ill behaved horses I've ever met!" LOL well obviously the person wasn't "doing Parelli" like they thought they were. 

Like around my area where I live, when I meet new horse people I usually never mention that I study Parelli. I don't preach it, I don't shove it down people's throats. If they ever see me work with my horse they usually ask questions, but I try to just be a good example of how the program SHOULD be executed. Some of my ex-bosses from cleaning stalls never knew I studied Parelli :lol: There was just never a need for me to share that information.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> That's when people say "Parelli doesn't work with every horse." Well yes it does, it just doesn't work for every PERSON. .


I strongly disagree. Just look at some abused horses. Or mentally corrput horses.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Well with extreme cases like that, the average person isn't going to be able to deal with the horse's issues. Only a professional should handle them. I know of many abused/mentally corrupt horses Pat himself has worked with, one of which being an EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE stallion in England at the Queen's place. He had a metal muzzle on all the time b/c he was so aggressive. After the Queen saw Pat work with that horse, she now expects all of her grooms, etc. to be at least a Level 1 grad. of the Parelli program.


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## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

In order to deal with those type of horses _patience_ and _understanding_ are the biggest keys.


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