# Ethics of joint injections



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I will only offer this:

When I asked the lameness vet about hock injections for one metabolic horse and was there something to help the other one with the fractured sacrum -------

The look on his face and the fierce shake of his head both times was enough for me to know to never ask that question again.

And he does injections -- I've watched the process --it's an ugly chill-to-my-bones process. He also does IRAP, so it isn't like his head is in the Fifties with these processes.

It could simply be that both my horses with arthritis issues are/were metabolic, Duke was highly sensitive to drugs and worse as he got older (RIP my Duke).

But I will say that, after I saw the entire process done at this vet's clinic a few years back, I wouldn't have an injection done anyway. It would have to produce a permanent near 100% positive affect for me to put a horse thru that


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I have nothing to add but the topic is a very worthy one.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are various types of hock injections that are used for different reasons
If you're using a hock injection to help a horse that's already got 'wear and tear' damage from past excesses then the idea is to help the horse stay comfortably mobile so it can lead as normal a life as possible.
The injection won't prevent further wear and tear damage if the horse is exposed to extreme physical activity.
Its hardly any different to using bute on a horse with wear and tear damage, you're just masking the pain while still putting the horse through more exertion than its joints are able to deal with. It will just cause further damage and eventually shorten the horse's working life, maybe its life.
'Normal a life as possible' should mean within the bounds of limitations caused by existing damage.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I don't have an issue with injections if it is going to help make a horse comfortable after other options have been tried.


I will use Stilts for an example. He is coming 14, he has some wear and tear from long days and hard riding. I have other options to try first but when it comes time I will have him injected. 

I have NO intention of using him like I did when he was younger for a ranch horse nor do I plan on training on him to go try to win the world on him in the cow horse. He has put in his time but he still enjoys being ridden.

I don't see a problem with making him comfortable when being ridden and go gather some cows on a short, easy day or go to a couple club shows a year.


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## simplytaylor16 (Jul 31, 2019)

You are most likely going to get a variety of answers out of this, I think you know your horse best to decide when enough is enough. Your vet should also advise you when it would be wise to retire. My experience with injections was great, if was a fairly quick process and my horse is feeling great. I guess it would also depend where you live, in my area several several people have their barrel horses injected when needed and still run. In the end, it's your opinion. Some people are totally against it, and some are all for it. As you can tell, I'm all for injections whether it's just for keeping them comfortable or so they can keep performing their best.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

I think for me it would depend on the potential outcome for the horse, but I echo @jaydee about the wear and tear. If the injections are done to keep the horse comfortable and other options have been tried then I am not against it, however I do not think I would continue using that horse as a performance animal to cause further wear and tear. For instance, I would not continue with a physically demanding form of riding as that is going to just exacerbate the original condition.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

It also depends on what you're injecting and why--- injections to keep the horse comfortable while the hocks fuse? Not a big deal. Without it the horse is uncomfortable needlessly. Injections to keep a lame horse in hard work? Not something I would be comfortable doing. I had one gelding that I roped on some years back who started getting sore and would have needed injections to keep him competitive. When he got to that point, I retired him to a trail horse, and we'd inject him in the early summer for riding season, and late fall so he was comfy over the winter when he was turned out, and he was happy as a clam. He bucked and kicked and ran and played and felt great with those injections. Without them, he'd get sore if he did too much. They made such a difference in his happiness, I felt ok doing that for him. He hated being a pasture pet, and liked nothing better than a trail ride or fun show. Being able to keep doing that with him was important for his mental state. My other rope horse never needed an injection a day in his life and I roped on him until he was 28. If he'd ever needed them, I would have retired him immediately-- at that point, he'd done enough. I would not have done them on him to keep him in work, but to keep the grand old man feeling good in his retirement? You bet. Had either needed them to keep competing? Nope. Competing days were done. I will not inject a horse to keep him competing if he's sound not competing without them. 

I will do them if needed to keep a good, healthy older horse comfortable for light riding or pasture sound. I will NOT do them to keep an older horse in heavy work. Some people have no problems with it, and you're going to be hard-pressed to find a top-end older rope horse, reiner, jumper, or barrel horse who isn't injected periodically. If the horse loves his job and it keeps him pain-free doing something he loves, that's probably different than a horse that is telling you he doesn't like his job anymore but you need him to keep going for another year or two. It's an individual thing for each horse and owner.

A relative of ours has back pain from decades of hard work. He gets his hips and lower back injected a couple of times a year, and the relief is well worth it to him. With his experience, he would have no issues injecting a horse to keep him pasture/light riding sound if the horse is comfortable with them. Someone who has not had it done, is squeamish, or isn't comfortable with the process and risks may make a different choice.


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## WildHorses85 (Oct 1, 2019)

Having been in the dressage and hunter world, SO many people inject, like crazy, often, to keep their horse in intense amounts of work and strain. I am against that. Honestly if you are injecting to make the horse comfortable, I think their work should be reduced. If you jump, perhaps step back and stop jumping. If you do upper level dressage, perhaps stick to lower level work. Extreme sports? Don't even get me started. If a horse needs injections I don't think they should be careening around.

I am all for injections to keep a horse comfortable and extend their life, if the outlook looks good. But would I inject and then ask that horse to continue working at a high level? I, personally, would not. But then you have some of the barns that literally inject every 6-8 months on some horses, and continue putting extreme wear and tear on them. To me, that is where I, personally, draw the line.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

So the general feeling seems to be that injections and keeping them in light work is OK. I guess what "light work" is depends on the horse.

But what if even "light work" would result in more long-term damage than "very light" or no work? Would you still inject them then, knowing that you might be reducing their quality of life in old age, or even ending up in a situation where you had to have them PTS earlier than you would have otherwise?

OTOH, maybe it's not healthy for them to just be sitting out in the pasture all day either?

I think where I've personally landed on this, at least right now, after reading what everyone else has to say, is that I will talk to the vet next time he comes out to inject her. I'd like to know if injections plus light work would result in a lower quality of life ultimately than no injections and no work. Then we'll go from there.

I'm still interested in other people's opinions.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ACinATX said:


> So, what I’m wondering about is the ethcis of joint injections. I’m a person who has a hard time with slippery slopes. Why is it OK for me to inject Moonshine so she can keep working (I guarantee you she’d prefer to be sitting out in the pasture getting fat), but not OK for someone to inject their barrel horse so he can keep working? Where do we draw the line, and how do we make that determination?
> 
> What do you guys think about this? Where and how do you draw the line?



I think it is an independent decision for each horse, and for each owner, based on the individual circumstances. 



Injections can be tremendously helpful to manage various sources of pain but they are not a cure. 



Yes, there does come a point when a horse should no longer be asked to do their primary career and maybe change to a less demanding career, or a time when the horse needs to be retired from riding entirely, based on the health condition(s) of the horse.


I've stuck more money into Red this year than I ever have on a horse with trying Pro-Stride injections in both front feet, numerous PEMF therapy sessions throughout the year, chiro check, vet checks, hock injections --- and that is only in an effort to keep him sound for general riding. I would give anything to make a barrel run on him again, and I know he would whole-heartedly run down that alley, but I also know that his body just cannot withstand it. Just like some humans are "blessed" with numerous health conditions, sometimes horses are dealt those cards too. I just hope I can keep him around long enough for my children to learn to ride with. He might just yet take a spin around the barrels one more time ...... but _at a trot_ with a kid in tow. 


Should I give up on him? Some people probably would have thrown in the towel by now. In contrast, some people would also probably still barrel race on him, not caring that he won't last. I'm just doing what I think is best for him ..... and partly considering what is best for me too .... the both of us.


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## Aprilswissmiss (May 12, 2019)

I think it's a personal decision that relies solely on a conversation between the owner and the vet. I know what I'd do with my horse, but I can't say I'd give the same advice to other people.

I think the big thing with my horse is I don't compete with her. I don't do hard work with her to begin with, just trails and neighborhood walks for the most part, with some fun stuff like log jumping and short gallops mixed in. If she wasn't showing resistance to work and otherwise seemed happy, but maybe sometimes just a little uncomfortable and stiff, I'd probably have her injected just to keep her happy so we can continue doing what we both enjoy - especially since it's not much more work than what she would already do playing in the pasture. I would stop doing the "fun stuff" though, and stick more to neighborhood strolls.

If she was showing resistance to work and didn't seem happy being ridden anymore, I'd stop riding altogether, BUT inject her if she needed it to be comfortable around the pasture. At that point, the damage is done, and with all she's given me, the least I could do is let her be comfortable while she lounges and grazes around. I don't mind having a pasture pet. The issue is that a lot of people can't/don't want to have a pasture pet.

Sadly, for the people who compete, the alternative to injections would be to send off their horse and get a new one that was younger. It's part of the reason I'm not the biggest fan of owning horses solely to compete. Neither answer is very good for the horse. But if injections can keep that horse in a relatively good home with decent care, even if that means they continue to compete and strain their joints and maybe shorten their lives, it's probably better than unintentionally ending up at auction to be sent who knows where. If they just dispose of their horses and get new ones, they're increasing the amount of homeless horses and flooding rescues while simultaneously increasing the demand for (potentially reckless) breeding, which I think is a much bigger problem than injecting. The IDEAL situation would be where every owner can retire their horse and love on them unconditionally until their time has come, but a lot of people are unwilling to do that. Which is sad, because it's what they'd do for their dog or cat. It's part of the reason I decided to work towards small animal medicine instead of equine medicine as a pre-veterinary student: people sometimes will only see a horse as a mechanism for competition, and nothing more.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

ACinATX said:


> So the general feeling seems to be that injections and keeping them in light work is OK. I guess what "light work" is depends on the horse.
> 
> But what if even "light work" would result in more long-term damage than "very light" or no work? Would you still inject them then, knowing that you might be reducing their quality of life in old age, or even ending up in a situation where you had to have them PTS earlier than you would have otherwise?
> 
> ...



I'd rather a horse have a slightly shorter life and be comfortable in those months/years than live a bit longer but be in pain. It's the same dilemma for things like Rimadyl/metacam in dogs-- yeah, they will likely fry your dog's kidneys and/or liver with long-term use, but if it keeps the dog comfortable for the time in between, might that not be worth it? We lost our nearly 13 y.o. Samoyed about a month ago. One morning he started vomiting and had a high fever. I rushed him to the vet, and he was in multi-organ failure and fading fast. He literally went from 'fine' to 'dying' in a few hours. We put him down. Two days before he had been chasing rabbits and rolling around on the floor with a new toy and jumping onto his favorite chair to snooze. Until the morning he passed he'd never skipped a meal or not followed me to the door when I went outside. I know his meds for arthritis and degenerative vertebral disc disease shortened his life, but if we hadn't given him those pain meds, he would have possibly made another year but been sore and painful during that time. Might that have been worth it? I don't think so. I don't want my animals hurting if I can do something about it. It's a balancing act.


Each horse is an individual, and there are SO MANY things that injections may or may not help. It's a case-by-case basis.


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## Sherian (Aug 28, 2012)

I have a background in competition horses where joint injections are considered a benefit to the horse - keeps them comfortable and moving well, lessens the need for anti inflammatories, lessens secondary injuries from the horse protecting the arthritic joint. The options have come a long way in 20 years with better products that are superior for joint health then the old pump 'em full of cortisone. 

curious what about the process disturbed you @walkinthewalk ? it's just a small prep for cleanliness and an injection?


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Depends.


Depends on the location/reason. Depends on the horse's age, level of work, and discipline. Depends on the owner's attitude towards it. Also depends on the horse's personality.


Lower hock joints are different than upper, stifles, cervical facets, naviculars, SIs, they all have their own prognosis. Low motion joint with arthritis vs high motion, an articular lesion or soft tissue injury. 



If you've got a 15yr old campaigner who's teaching the kids how to bomb around the 2'3"s and his hocks are starting to bug him, go ahead and inject. Hocks fuse and the horse has lots of wear and tear that he has proven he can withstand. If you get a year out of them, fantastic. Inject again. If they don't last, time for a career change. As far as high-intensity sports, I see it similarly in what does the horse handle. If they need one set of injections and they are happy to keep racing or jumping or whatever for however long, great. When they aren't comfortable, then change jobs. The owner has to be aware enough to know they are on borrowed time and not wait for something catastrophic to happen before they step down their workload.



Even a younger sport horse who's in hard work. If something needs injecting and doing so makes them 100% again for extended periods between injections, go ahead. The caveat on that, the owner needs to take the initiative to fix why they were sore in the first place, be that a change in shoes, turnout, riding style, tack, ect. Maybe they just aren't strong enough and stressed the joints compensating for weakness. Owner needs to acknowledge that and take steps to fix that, but you still are going to want the injections to get the joint quiet. If the horse just can't handle the work, then they need to go a different direction.



Some horses suck at retirement. If injections every 6 months means you can take the old guy out for a trail ride 3x a week, vs them self destructing or wasting away in retirement, great. Arthritis needs motion, so if injections keep the horse moving, that's going to be better for them in the long run.



Injections have to be part of a broader diagnostic investigation. I do not support preventative joint injections or when the horse is lame, but let's inject and see how he goes. I won't inject without a proper workup and diagnostic imaging, otherwise how do you know what you assumed was some hock arthritis wasn't actually a tendon tear, but the steroids were close enough to take care of that pain too. Now that horse is going to go misdiagnosed and injure themselves more.


When it comes to their long term comfort, I don't see it as some kind of moralistic conundrum. Will this injection make him comfortable, yes or no. If yes, I'll inject. Injections are fairly low risk and straight forward for the benefits they provide. I'd rather my horse be comfortable for a shorter period of time than have him live longer but in pain, especially if I could do something about it. If the injections make them happy and they stay happy, it's worth it to me. My horse has had 6 different joints injected a total of 9 times over the last 10 months. He was always a pretty happy and easy going guy, but the difference in his attitude is noticeable between how he's been for the last several years to these last few months. He's much more expressive and goofy now. Especially after seeing the other side of him, I'd never want to make him live without injections. He tells me how he's feeling that day and if he's good enough to ride and maybe we'll go for a trot in the pasture.


Ramblings aside, I don't think injections are unethical or bad, but they do carry responsibility. It's not a fire and forget procedure.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Great post @ApuetsoT.


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## Sherian (Aug 28, 2012)

agreed - good post by @ApuetsoT


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Sherian said:


> curious what about the process disturbed you @walkinthewalk ? it's just a small prep for cleanliness and an injection?


The gelding I observed was getting injected to keep working - a Quarter Horse. I honestly can't remember his job. It could have been barrels since anyone who doesn't ride a Walking Horse or a Hunter-Jumper in my area envisions themselves a barrel racer.

The prep work was fine. I thought the first injection with a big needle was bad enough but that was only the numbing agent. After it took affect, the vet came back with longest needle I have ever seen and injected something into the left inner thigh of the horse. Even though the horse couldn't feel a thing, I could, lollol. I still can't unsee that. 

I never did ask the vet what the injection was as it was really hectic in there, the vet was behind schedule, and I had already been waiting close to an hour past my appointment for Joker to have hoof x-Rays and to have his shoes reset.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

walkinthewalk said:


> The gelding I observed was getting injected to keep working - a Quarter Horse. I honestly can't remember his job. It could have been barrels since anyone who doesn't ride a Walking Horse or a Hunter-Jumper in my area envisions themselves a barrel racer.
> 
> The prep work was fine. I thought the first injection with a big needle was bad enough but that was only the numbing agent. After it took affect, the vet came back with longest needle I have ever seen and injected something into the left inner thigh of the horse. Even though the horse couldn't feel a thing, I could, lollol. I still can't unsee that.
> 
> I never did ask the vet what the injection was as it was really hectic in there, the vet was behind schedule, and I had already been waiting close to an hour past my appointment for Joker to have hoof x-Rays and to have his shoes reset.



Never watch SI injections then. Had them done earlier this year. No lie, it's a two foot needle that goes in the top of their hip. It went so deep, the entire needle was in. 



It's a little unsettling to watch.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

ApuetsoT said:


> Never watch SI injections then. Had them done earlier this year. No lie, it's a two foot needle that goes in the top of their hip. It went so deep, the entire needle was in.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a little unsettling to watch.


Mercy, I would have to be carried out of theremg::hide


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

There's a huge difference between doing 2-3 short lessons of flat work/weekly vs running flat out on barrels or doing eventing or even super collected Western Pleasure showing. The injections you're talking about and the work you're talking about are getting a joint injection so they can continue moving vs being all stove up with arthritis. The horse will still be all stove up with arthritis without the injections, whether she's doing a little flat work or just out on pasture. Arthritis has also been demonstrated to progress less quickly and be less debilitating if the horse can be kept moving. If she can be kept moving she'll be healthier and less uncomfortable and the joint injections can help with that.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I just dealt with this in my personal horse.

I chose to not go with continuing injections. He had mild arthritis. Lived in large pastures and had to move about to get to feed and to water. I did put him in a semi-retirement situation where he will be active. As @Dreamcatcher Arabians said, activity does slow the progression of osteoarthritis. 

I did try hock injections for him, but for the riding we do (mountains, polo) it did not offer enough change. It really isn't a cure. Although, he never moved as if lame, he just couldn't do the work I needed him to. Post injections only 20% of rides were adequate, and I felt continuing to ask him to perform in my work was unfair to him.

That said, I would absolutely get a horse polyglycan injections on a scheduled basis as a preventative if I was competing at a higher level.

So, I agree with many others here. It depends on the horse, the owner, the situation, the outcome. No one easy answer is right for all.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Really like @Apuesto's post. 

Also agree with @Sherian.
Sometimes an injection can help a horse get through an issue and prevent further damage. There was the mention of arthritis being less painful and damaging if the horse can move better. My horse has intermittent upward fixation of the patellas. He was beginning to get mild arthritis in his stifles already at 11 because of moving poorly due to the pain from that issue. Injecting his stifles once helped him move better and get his quad muscles stronger, which meant his stifles did not catch as much. Moving better will actually help prevent his arthritis from getting as bad in the future.

So it's not always a selfish decision, meaning you are doing it because you want to ride the horse. Sometimes it is just better for the horse all around to do an injection. And as was mentioned, there is the horse's emotional state to consider. Some horses really do prefer to be moving and going out on rides.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

For me, it would depend on what exactly is being injected for starters. Because cortisone injections may accelerate joint deterioration and tendon degeneration, I would definitely think more than twice. I hear of a lot of young horses being injected with this and it does concern me as to why it would need to be done at a young age in so many in the first place. An older horse wouldn't concern me as much to keep them comfortable.


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## tim62988 (Aug 30, 2012)

i think it's a personal preference. my mare was off early summer one vet said maybe have a chiropractor take a look, vet made it out in a few weeks and said stifles gave me options so I picked middle of the line care which was stifle injections.

slowly worked her back up to our regular trail riding and have put on some great miles and a lot of miles. will make an appointment this winter to have her rechecked after a few weeks of trail riding in the spring to see if she's going to need another round which I suspect she will but I personally will choose injections over retirement as motion is lotion so I need to be cognizant of what I ask from my mare and possibly work a second horse into the mix but i feel ethically it's not a bad option if used to keep a horse mobile and comfortable


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## simplytaylor16 (Jul 31, 2019)

LoriF said:


> For me, it would depend on what exactly is being injected for starters. Because cortisone injections may accelerate joint deterioration and tendon degeneration, I would definitely think more than twice. I hear of a lot of young horses being injected with this and it does concern me as to why it would need to be done at a young age in so many in the first place. An older horse wouldn't concern me as much to keep them comfortable.



Just curious, how do you feel about HA injections? Do you like that better than the cortisone?


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## simplytaylor16 (Jul 31, 2019)

LoriF said:


> For me, it would depend on what exactly is being injected for starters. Because cortisone injections may accelerate joint deterioration and tendon degeneration, I would definitely think more than twice. I hear of a lot of young horses being injected with this and it does concern me as to why it would need to be done at a young age in so many in the first place. An older horse wouldn't concern me as much to keep them comfortable.


Just curious, how do you feel about HA injections? Do you like that better than the cortisone?


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

LoriF said:


> For me, it would depend on what exactly is being injected for starters. Because cortisone injections may accelerate joint deterioration and tendon degeneration, I would definitely think more than twice. I hear of a lot of young horses being injected with this and it does concern me as to why it would need to be done at a young age in so many in the first place. An older horse wouldn't concern me as much to keep them comfortable.



You also have to consider that *inflammation* in the joint can damage the joint too. Yes, there are always risks when you inject something into a joint, no matter what you are injecting, but often times the injection benefit outweighs the risk.


Vets are also using better quality formulations of steroids as well, which aren't as detrimental as previous versions were. 



As far as young horses vs old horses, again, I think it boils down to WHY the horse is being injected. Using my horse Red as an example, he had very advanced hock fusion diagnosed at the age of 7 in his right hock. I had hauled him to a regional specialist for a second opinion (who agreed with my usual lameness vet) and he suspected he had had hock changes from birth.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

simplytaylor16 said:


> Just curious, how do you feel about HA injections? Do you like that better than the cortisone?



The majority of vets inject a "cocktail" that includes a form of HA and steroids.


HA of course is good for joint lubrication but it won't do anything to address inflammation, which most joints have if they have inflammation and/or arthritis. That's where (in my opinion) the steroids can be very beneficial.


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## simplytaylor16 (Jul 31, 2019)

beau159 said:


> The majority of vets inject a "cocktail" that includes a form of HA and steroids.
> 
> 
> HA of course is good for joint lubrication but it won't do anything to address inflammation, which most joints have if they have inflammation and/or arthritis. That's where (in my opinion) the steroids can be very beneficial.


Hmm I'm very curious now as to why my horse was only injected with HA, but I guess that will go back to doing the x-rays!


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

As advised to me by some of the top vets in the UK directly... we wanna hold off injections as long as possible. I was all worried and was like am I riding her too much? They laughed in my face. Turns out that at that point I was on the "don't ride enough" spectrum, much less worry about over working her. Make sure your definition of light work is really light work. I think to some people my original idea of light work is "nonexistent" to them ****. I know I'll eventually have to get them for my big ol' mare. I think a lot of people so often fear the day that they have to put their pet to sleep that we lose sight of the quality of life aspect. 

To inject and work I would ask myself this:

- does this horse need a job to be happy? 

Plenty retired horses, dogs and even snakes in my experience become depressed when retired. I 100% do not agree injecting a horse for high level competition but the problem isn't the injection - it's the management and rigorous training that leads to that necessity that bothers me. But that's a whole other topic :< It really really depends on the horse. I know that if my mare couldn't be ridden anymore I could easily fulfil her life with hand walks, ground driving and liberty exercises. But there are horses and I imagine especially some competition and working horses would really struggle with that transition.

My mare will 100% need injections at some point. I mean she's middle aged and big girl. But I was told we really want to hold off on that as it becomes less effective each time. She is slightly lame - it's almost impossible to see but same as yours is. Part of her issue might be related to the fact my farrier has ignored my/vets requests for three cycles and I've just switched to a new one. But on each (and regular!) assessment the rotation of vets that have seen have always said "yes she's slightly off, but she's forward, willing and not in any obvious pain". The key thing I have learned is to be really on top of her fitness and strength. Not less work. But MORE. That is because we don't compete or do anything fancy. I needed to more hind end strengthening exercises. She made substantial improvements the stronger she got back there. No lie, she takes some time to warm and loosen up but once her engine is going!! 

Personally if the horse thrives on ridden work and enjoys going out on group or solo trail rides or just enjoys some arena games but it 100% requires pain relief or an injection to keep comfortable for that work then yes. I'd inject. Would the horse be happy being a pasture ornament and you, as an owner, are happy and able to fulfil it's emotional needs on the ground? Then hold off on injecting. Is the horse uncomfortable even without work? Absolutely inject. 

Focus on the quality aspect and hopefully you find your answer  I'd rather inject a horse and it live a more fulfilled, if slightly shorter, life than a long life full of boredom. But my personal answer: if you're not gonna compete at a high level and put Moonshine through the mincer I really wouldn't worry about doing an injection and wear and tear. I don't feel that applies to casuals like myself (if you're the same, not assuming!) 


Some great posts here!

edit: one last thing a great point brought up. Definitely if they are stiff and walking funny, over compensating.. it might be creating more wear and tear and stiffness everywhere. Might be better to wear down a single joint than have multiple issues across the board because said horse is in pain. Definitely something to consider!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@Kalraii what does a snake retire FROM? LOL, but also curious....


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

@ACinATX I used to do conservation talks. I'd use one snake per presentation sometimes I'd have six in one day. But the snakes would only work a week on and off and it was a full time job. Same approach for all the other animals. Some snakes (personality and species dependant) were just incredibly unhappy. Not eating, regurgitating.. being stressed/aggressive/lethargic. SOME loved coming out. When I would be preparing in the morning some would be at the tank door checking out the commotion. Those that didn't want to come out? Some would literally slighter off if I opened their door, flaiming their tail like "no no no no no not meee!". It's really strange... and kinda funny. I have one corn (of all the ones I have ****) that gets seriously depressed if not handled regularly even though he has a few flatmates. It's also good exercise for them, they get really strong coming out and by being handled. I had several chilean rose tarantulas as their temperament is really good for actual handling. One was an absolute cow and acted rabid. In fact she still acts rabid, thirteen years later. Two come out and don't exhibit any signs of stress, don't lose appetite etc and were very open and curious with their behaviour. The last one would flick hairs and go off her food if you messed with her. _Tarantulas._ It's just amazing really aint it... It's all in the detail


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

simplytaylor16 said:


> Just curious, how do you feel about HA injections? Do you like that better than the cortisone?


HA occurs naturally in the joints and would be something that I would choose over any type of steroid if it helped the animal be more comfortable. But I would also take it easy on an animal that was not at optimal condition for a sport that I choose. More than likely I would keep the animal and choose a different sport that it can do.


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## WildHorses85 (Oct 1, 2019)

Kalraii said:


> @ACinATX I used to do conservation talks. I'd use one snake per presentation sometimes I'd have six in one day. But the snakes would only work a week on and off and it was a full time job. Same approach for all the other animals. Some snakes (personality and species dependant) were just incredibly unhappy. Not eating, regurgitating.. being stressed/aggressive/lethargic. SOME loved coming out. When I would be preparing in the morning some would be at the tank door checking out the commotion. Those that didn't want to come out? Some would literally slighter off if I opened their door, flaiming their tail like "no no no no no not meee!". It's really strange... and kinda funny. I have one corn (of all the ones I have ****) that gets seriously depressed if not handled regularly even though he has a few flatmates. It's also good exercise for them, they get really strong coming out and by being handled. I had several chilean rose tarantulas as their temperament is really good for actual handling. One was an absolute cow and acted rabid. In fact she still acts rabid, thirteen years later. Two come out and don't exhibit any signs of stress, don't lose appetite etc and were very open and curious with their behaviour. The last one would flick hairs and go off her food if you messed with her. _Tarantulas._ It's just amazing really aint it... It's all in the detail


That is really quite intriguing!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

fallowing this. I have considered if hock injections is a conversation i need with my vet about negra. she has been sore in her hocks quite a bit as of late.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Great topic! It's something I've thought about since Harley was diagnosed with arthritis last summer. His hocks are fused, and he is doing very well on Previcox so no injections yet... but when the time comes, we will probably do them. He does much better when he's active. When he's not ridden as much, like in the winter or in that month of spring when the arena is just slop, he's depressed and stiff. He seems to be happy going to shows, and is certainly healthier when ridden consistently. The vet who diagnosed him said he's fine to jump 2'3". I know some might think it's cruel to jump a horse with arthritis, but these are low jumps -- he'll never go higher than 2'3" -- and you should see him in front of a jump. He lights up. Ears go forward, head goes up, eyes go wide, tail is high, he goes faster and his whole body comes alive again. People think he's a youngster when they see him like that. 

That said, it's a big dilemma as to how long he will be able to continue to do it, and whether injections are going to be necessary or warranted in his case. Either way, he will live out his life here with us, but will he be happy to be a pasture pet? I don't think so. He doesn't play well with others, has no interest in very much. He likes to perform, and likes to be with his human. 

My daughter's coach had a jumper that she retired to light riding a few years back because of arthritis. Within 6 months, the horse had gone so far downhill that she could not longer be ridden at all. She looked awful. She told me she regretted ever retiring her. Best to keep a happy horse doing what they love doing for as long as possible, as long as you are alert to the signs that it is becoming too much. We'll keep Harley on low jumps for a while, and I have not dismissed the possibility of injections... but haven't decided on them either. That said, when the cold comes and he is miserable, I may well do it just to keep him comfortable. 

There is no easy answer. But thanks for bringing this up!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

There's two things you often hear said about joint injections: Once you start you can't stop, and joint injections cause damage themselves.

If you've got a horse who already has OA and you inject them, they're going to feel better. When it wears off, they are going to feel worse. As it's a degenerative condition, once the injections wear off they might be worse than where they started. Not because of the injections, but because it's a degenerative condition that you stopped treating.

Then you have different classes of injectables. There is some truth to steroid injections damaging cartilage. There are certain types that are damaging to cartilage, but there are other that are chondroprotective. The older steroid tends to be the former. If you have a low motion joint that will eventually fuse, using those harsher steroids can serve two purposes: reduce pain and inflammation, and facilitate fusion of the joint. Things like hocks and pasterns. The protective steroids are better in high motion joints like stifles.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

This may be a dumb question. I've never had to do injections on my horses fortunately as any condition was able to be treated by a change in work and supplements or other therapies. 

I get cortisones injected into my own joints. It lasts six to eight months, but the pain comes back. Is it the same thing? 

I know that the joint damage is going to continue for myself, and I've been cautioned that eventually even the injections aren't going to work. I assume that it's similar. I also know that I have other options that help with the joint pain that aren't the injections. The doctor cautioned me that while I get the injections the joint feels good, so I do more strenuous things. I assume it's the same.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> and you should see him in front of a jump. He lights up. Ears go forward, head goes up, eyes go wide, tail is high, he goes faster and his whole body comes alive again. People think he's a youngster when they see him like that.
> 
> That said, it's a big dilemma as to how long he will be able to continue to do it, and whether injections are going to be necessary or warranted in his case.



No easy answer, indeed. And horses are such individuals. Some love what they do so much, they will do it even if they hurt. Others will be much more "vocal" in their behavior if something is bothering them. I think that's where it is important for a performance animal (that is the type to try hard no matter what) for the owner/rider to recognize when something is wrong with the performance and decide accordingly how to manage, BEFORE the horse develops a behavior issue because of it. 



Which is always way easier said, than done.





therhondamarie said:


> I get cortisones injected into my own joints. It lasts six to eight months, but the pain comes back. Is it the same thing?
> 
> I know that the joint damage is going to continue for myself, and I've been cautioned that eventually even the injections aren't going to work. I assume that it's similar.



Sort of. I again comes back to WHY the horse is getting injections. 



For example, if a horse has it's hocks fusing, injections can help tremendously to help with the pain. And if they are lucky enough to completely fuse, then the pain also usually goes away and injections are no longer needed (nor could you even get a needle into the joint space anyway).


But of course for things like arthritis, yes, damage will be done over time regardless of injections or not. Some people argue that injections can slow down processes such as arthritis because you are (in part) helping decrease and control the inflammation that causes the process in the first place.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Acadianartist said:


> My daughter's coach had a jumper that she retired to light riding a few years back because of arthritis. Within 6 months, the horse had gone so far downhill that she could not longer be ridden at all. She looked awful. She told me she regretted ever retiring her. Best to keep a happy horse doing what they love doing for as long as possible, as long as you are alert to the signs that it is becoming too much.



Years ago I asked my favorite vet the same question.......when do you retire a horse? He said "don't." He said when they quite getting exercise is when they loose muscle tone and then one day they lay down and can't even get back up. He was really in favor of keeping even elderly horses ridden and active.


That said, I did have a couple horses I completely retired simply because I didn't think it was right to be riding a horse that was pretty crippled up. But as long as a horse can do even light riding, I will ride them. 


I've never had a horse's joints injected. If I did, it would probably come down more to economics than any kind of ethical dilemma. I wouldn't push a horse to ruin it's body just so I could ride it. I don't compete and if a horse is just able to walk, that's fine with me. So I wouldn't be pushing a horse to be competitive or anything. But if it made the horse happier doing light exercise, yes, I would feel fine doing injections for that. Because light exercise is good for them. It's kind of a "use it or loose it" scenario.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

therhondamarie said:


> This may be a dumb question. I've never had to do injections on my horses fortunately as any condition was able to be treated by a change in work and supplements or other therapies.
> 
> I get cortisones injected into my own joints. It lasts six to eight months, but the pain comes back. Is it the same thing?
> 
> I know that the joint damage is going to continue for myself, and I've been cautioned that eventually even the injections aren't going to work. I assume that it's similar. I also know that I have other options that help with the joint pain that aren't the injections. The doctor cautioned me that while I get the injections the joint feels good, so I do more strenuous things. I assume it's the same.


I tend to use things like Legend (HA) or Adequan (PSG) when a horse first starts acting a little stiff. If that helps, awesome and we stop there. I've had several show horses that have lived into old age with me, and when they become uncomfortable, we inject joints as needed. I haven't done a joint in a while, but will again when necessary. I've found most of the elder horses have let me know that they're done when it's time to go out to pasture. My old guy Lucky, was 31 years old when he let me know that he had had enough of trails and parades. He was an agreeable fellow and did shows and jumped low hunters with my little sister until he was about 18, then let us know he really wasn't liking it any more, but loved trail and parades. Other horses may not want to work that long, they find ways to tell you. 

Even us humans need help once in a while. I'm at the point with my back where I have bulging discs everywhere, OA, and stenosis to the point that I'm now going to let them inject my neck and my lower back and hopefully will be a candidate for ablation in my lower back (basically, nerving) to relieve some pain. I've made it clear to the doc that what we're doing is for my quality of life, if there are no horses, there's no quality. He would prefer I never get on another horse. Not happening. In humans, not sure if they do it the same way in horses, the injections are limited to 3 per year. And that's not 3 in the neck & 3 in the lower back, it's 3 period and so once they've done my neck & back, I'll be 2 for the year. That's to protect from the damage steroids cause to cartilage, bone and tendons. I'm crossing fingers and toes that it will fix the problem and let me get on with it. I'm one that cannot stand being idle, put me out to pasture and I'm not sure how long I'd last. So, I totally sympathize with these older horses that still have plenty of gas in them, just having a hard time getting around. I'd be a 21 year old horse (63 human years), so still have lots of want to. Just maybe not quite has fast or rough as I used to, I'll leave that to the young'uns.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

Thank you @beau159 and @DreamCatcherarabians for those clarifications. Side note: my boyfriend had the nerving done in his back, but there is still tremendous pain. He does ride still, but that's why we looked for traditionally smoother horses for him and he ended up with a TWH. 

My take away from injections in horses is that like anything it can be a disaster in the wrong hands and it can extend a horses comfort in the right ones.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

The original question was about ethics and where you draw the line. Obviously injections can be beneficial or harmful for the horse, all depending on a lot of things.

I personally feel that if the injections keep the horse comfortable for general living and moving around with light work that keeps it's body fit that is fine. To give injections to the animal to keep it going in a sport that is continuously making the joints worse and worse for the animal, I would say that is not being fair to the animal and the person is just thinking about what they want to do. I honestly don't believe that a horse would be so in love with a particular sport that they would just lay down and die if they couldn't do that sport anymore as long as they got to do something else less abrasive to their body.
Most people do that for themselves.

I ride now and hopefully will for a long time. If that is not in the cards for me then maybe I will still have a horse to hang out with but do something else physically to keep in shape another way that my body can tolerate. I think that it should be the same for our equine partners. The job that I have now is really hard on the joints. I do it because I have to to make a living. To be honest, I can't wait until I don't have to do it anymore. I don't like doing things that make my body hurt. I take NSAIDs on occasion to make myself more comfortable but I certainly don't want to live on them. I would rather stop doing what I do that makes my body hurt in the first place.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

LoriF said:


> The original question was about ethics and where you draw the line. Obviously injections can be beneficial or harmful for the horse, all depending on a lot of things.
> 
> I personally feel that if the injections keep the horse comfortable for general living and moving around with light work that keeps it's body fit that is fine. To give injections to the animal to keep it going in a sport that is continuously making the joints worse and worse for the animal, I would say that is not being fair to the animal and the person is just thinking about what they want to do.



For discussion purposes _(promise I'm genuinely not trying to pick on you)_, why is it okay to inject a horse for trail riding but not for show jumping? Barrel racing? Reining? Dressage?


If horses are intended for enjoyment of the rider (which honestly, that is why most people have horses - to enjoy them), why does it matter what job the horse has if injections will help them feel better?


Yes quite obviously some sports are more physically demanding than others. There's no question about that. But the sport itself doesn't "make the joints worse" for those that take care of their horses. (So of course, that is NOT talking about someone that over-runs their barrel horse, or does way too many sliding stops on their reining horse, or over-jumps their jumping horse, or any other scenario. Because unfortunately, there are those people out there.) 



For example in the barrel racing world, Charmayne James and Scamper won TEN world championships together. Lisa Lockhart is still successfully competing on Chism and he's 17 years old this year. Brittany Pozzi Tonozzi is back on Duke this year, after he was off for 3+ years with a injury, and he's doing better than ever at age 16 this year. 



Are these professsionals abusing their horses by injecting them and still continuing to run barrels?
Are they doing a disservice to the horse and only thinking of themselves?
Have these horses not been treated fairly?

Are they *ethically wrong *to inject their barrel racing horses?


Again, truly not picking on you, but offering another viewpoint on the discussion. 



If the horse is happy to do their job, and the injections are used as an overall treatment program, along with other necessary treatments and/or proper rest periods, I see nothing wrong with injections when they are warranted for a performance horse.




trailhorserider said:


> Years ago I asked my favorite vet the same question.......when do you retire a horse? He said "don't." He said when they quite getting exercise is when they loose muscle tone and then one day they lay down and can't even get back up. He was really in favor of keeping even elderly horses ridden and active.



I would agree. Since I was going to school at the time, I rarely got to ride my old Beau who was developing some arthritis issues with his hind end. By the time I was done with school, he was unrideable. While he would have probably gotten to that point anyway, I truly believe he _deteriorated FASTER_ by not being ridden and just sitting in the pasture. So I think continuing to ride them, lightly if you must, is going to keep them around longer, rather than full retirement in the pasture.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I'm with @Beau on this one. Harley doesn't need injections yet. I haven't made the decision to get them or not to get them if and when the time comes. Is it wrong to let him jump low cross rails and 18" to 2'3"? Does he NEED to keep jumping to stay active and in shape? I don't have the answer. But as @Beau pointed out, we have horses for selfish reasons. I happen to think my horses have a pretty great life. In the wild, Harley would be dead. He requires a lot of maintenance to stay healthy. He gets more TLC than my other two horses combined. But he is my daughter's best friend, her first horse, her teacher and he will live out his life with us no matter what. 

My daughter and I have had many discussions about the fact that at any moment, he may have to stop competing. But at the moment, he is more competitive than ever, winning championships on a regular basis. If hock injections keep him comfortable so he can continue to be a teacher to my daughter, and continue to have a full and active life, I don't really have a problem with that. One day, we'll decide he can't jump anymore, but we're not there yet. That said, because my daughter wants to work on her position, she will jump on a different horse at her coach's barn over the winter. That way she can jump a little higher without putting any additional strain on Harley. But the vet told us very clearly that jumping 2'3" will NOT put excessive strain on Harley's joints. Heck, high level jumpers will tell you 2'3" is not even a real jump. But we will re-assess regularly. I think a sedentary lifestyle, whether for human or horse, is far worse than an athletic one. Harley is fit (a coach who knew him when he was younger and met him again last summer said he's fitter than she'd ever seen him in his life!), and happy to have a job to do. How do I know? Well, it didn't take long for my daughter and I to realize something was wrong last spring when he did not want to go in the show ring. That wasn't like him. He was also picking up the wrong lead which was new. That's when we had him x-rayed and found out he has arthritis. We put him on Previcox, and since then, he happily walks into the ring again. I'd like to think that we do know our horses, and listen to what they are telling us. 

In the end, we subject our horses to a lot of things. Are hock injections really worse than everything else we do so that we can enjoy them? The flip side is that if we stop using horses for our enjoyment, the horse population will go into serious decline since most people won't just keep them as pets. Is it selfish for us to want Harley to compete and live as long as possible in as good a shape as possible? Isn't that what we'd want for ourselves?


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

beau159 said:


> For discussion purposes _(promise I'm genuinely not trying to pick on you)_, why is it okay to inject a horse for trail riding but not for show jumping? Barrel racing? Reining? Dressage?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seriously not feeling picked on at all


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

beau159 said:


> For discussion purposes _(promise I'm genuinely not trying to pick on you)_, why is it okay to inject a horse for trail riding but not for show jumping? Barrel racing? Reining? Dressage?
> 
> If horses are intended for enjoyment of the rider (which honestly, that is why most people have horses - to enjoy them), why does it matter what job the horse has if injections will help them feel better?


In my opinion, ethically speaking, it is much more complicated than exactly what job the horse is doing. The ethics of it to me comes down to the bigger picture of the individual horse. 

If a person is truly seeing a horse as only here for the rider to enjoy, that is objectifying the horse and means the horse is more likely to suffer from ill treatment. I can't say horses as a species are "intended" for anything. They are wonderful animals and should be respected as living beings. @Acadianartist said we have horses for selfish reasons. To me that's like saying people get married and have children for selfish reasons, since they do it for their own enjoyment. Some do these things out of selfishness, but we can have co-beneficial relationships with domesticated animals, just as we can with families. We don't have to have them purely for our own ambitions and desires, with no thought for their well being. Instead, we can ask them to do some activity we enjoy, that is within the realm of their individual mental and physical capacities, and in return we give them good feed, medical care, shelter, and a good life with friends. That is not only for our own benefit, it benefits the horse also. 

So to me, that is why it is more complex than what job the horse does. A person could learn from the vet that their horse does not have perfect anatomy for something like barrel racing, but it does not seem to be doing any harm. Yet that imperfect anatomy has led to some mild joint arthritis. If the job is not causing an issue, and injections keep the horse more comfortable, it seems perfectly ethical to inject to keep the horse comfortable while jumping or reining. Yet we know there are also people who have a horse who is not suited for the level of work, is breaking down, but the person still wants to use the horse so is trying to keep the horse going by injecting. That person is not thinking of the horse's long term future, and doesn't care if the horse becomes crippled later on.

The same thing can be done for the right reasons, ethically, considering the whole horse, or it can be done for the wrong reasons, with no consideration for the horse.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

LoriF said:


> No where here did I say that it's ok for a trail horse to have joint injections but not for show jumpers, barrel racing, reining, or dressage.



Nope, you didn't say anything about trail riding. But again, discussion points for a comparison of a sport that is light work versus more intense work.








LoriF said:


> I run on uneven rocks all day long and it has taken it's toll on my knees and hips. If someone told me that I would have the same wear and tear if I walked 10 miles a day on flat sidewalks, I would tell them that they have lost there minds.



But there are some folks out there that WOULD have just as bad knees and hips as you, even though they did only walk on flat sidewalks their whole life. Just like humans, horses bodies are all different and some will have problems even with light work.



And I guess that is the point I am trying to make and why I don't feel it's fair to entirely blame a particular sport for "chewing up" their joints. Because it might have just been the horse's genetics and nothing to do with the sport. There's no way to know.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

beau159 said:


> Nope, you didn't say anything about trail riding. But again, discussion points for a comparison of a sport that is light work versus more intense work.



Just in the sport of trail riding their could be light work versus more intense. If the horse was having problems with intensity I don't think that I would get the joints injected so I could keep up with the intensity. I would give injections to keep the horses comfortable and scale back on the intensity. If I wanted to continue to compete at the same intensity then I would get a different horse that doesn't have issues with it.








beau159 said:


> But there are some folks out there that WOULD have just as bad knees and hips as you, even though they did only walk on flat sidewalks their whole life. Just like humans, horses bodies are all different and some will have problems even with light work.


And If I had been dealt a crappy hand of cards with a predisposition to have bad joints in the first place, I certainly wouldn't being doing activities to aggravate the situation for myself.



beau159 said:


> And I guess that is the point I am trying to make and why I don't feel it's fair to entirely blame a particular sport for "chewing up" their joints. Because it might have just been the horse's genetics and nothing to do with the sport. There's no way to know.



I guess I really don't understand why you are trying to make this point with me. I am not blaming an entire sport for chewing up their joints. I don't even know where that came from because it is not something that I even said.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

The subject of Ethics is a complicated one in of itself; to ask if joint injections are ethical is very difficult to answer. 

Quite a few owners/riders/vets would not even blink if the subject of injections came up. If it kept the horse going, they would do it. IMO these are more likely to be serious competitors, the professional riders. 

On the other side of the issue, many pleasure riders would not consider injections for various reasons. Cost, possible damage to the joint, and questionable benefit to name a few. 

When I first stated in Dressage, I had a TB/Appy mare I was competing on at the lower levels. She had a fabulous (9) walk, a really nice trot (7-8) and a horrible canter(5). One day while lunging her in a field the BO suggested I ride in (She said had been cleared for a new arena just waiting on fencing) my mare stepped in a dep hole, injuring her hock. 

After a long stall rest and slow convalescence, she was still off on that leg after 6 months. I had purchased a second horse to ride during her time off. My vet said hock injections were needed and she could then go back to training, otherwise she should be sound enough for gentle trail rides. 

I decided not to do injections. Dressage is very hard on the hocks, and I felt there was really not a good reason to continue competing her. She was retired to brood mare and lived a long and happy life out in pasture producing two beautiful bay fillies with blankets. 

IMO a horse that needs injections to compete, is pushing the horse beyond their innate physical capabilities. Injections, IMO, are a patch, not a fix and could cause further damage to the joint at an accelerated rate. 

Humans too suffer pain and damage to joints and temporary relief is obtained for those who choose to get injections, but it increases the progression of OA and leads to joint replacements. 

I personally have injuries to a joint that has progressed to arthritis, and I did one time try an injection due to the severe pain I was in. It helped temporarily, but within 6 months it was worse, and there is a hard lump in the area where the injection was placed. 

So I won't have another injection, and I won't subject my horse to one either. There are other ways to deal with the pain...


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

LoriF said:


> I am not blaming an entire sport for chewing up their joints. I don't even know where that came from because it is not something that I even said.
> 
> 
> ...
> ...



Maybe I misunderstood you?


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