# Mare "Nopes Out" of Situations



## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

Does anyone else have a horse that just "nopes out" of situations? 

My mare Dixie, when faced with an unpleasant situation, will occasionally rear, then turn around and "nope" back to the barn, and can only be stopped about 50% of the time, by digging your heels in and fighting her with all your might in a non-victorious tug-of-war.
Rope halters don't help either. All that does is make her shake her head as well. 
I seriously think if she could talk she would seriously be saying, "Nope, nope nope, nope, NOPE!" :gallop:

The only thing that has ever stopped her is a stud chain. *It wasn't my idea.* Before she got better about her feet being handled, for the first time handling her, our farrier (who is very experienced and is also normally extremely gentle if he can possibly be) couldn't do a thing with her until he ran a stud chain through her mouth.

She's better about her feet now. Has been for the most part since that day. But she still reacts to every new situation by just bullheadedly pushing herself back to the barn. She doesn't even seem angry most of the time. Just too concerned to stay. Like, "Sorry, I have to go now."

If you've ever played a horror game or something and just "nope"d out when you got too scared, that's what Dixie does. If she doesn't like something she just walks or trots away. Oh, and if you don't manage to hang onto her to be dragged all the way back to the barn, she starts galloping around all Willy nilly.

Has anyone else ever had a horse that does this? If so, how do you handle it?


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## falling (Apr 13, 2014)

Is this when you are leading or riding her?


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

falling said:


> Is this when you are leading or riding her?


Leading her. It's not a big deal riding because we don't really do anything that spoops her out then. But if you try and desensitize her to anything, she does the "nope" thing and just gets the heck out of dodge.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

My mare got to be very good at that game. The only way I stopped her was some very well timed corrections, a dressage whip, and a stud chain, over the nose. I did try putting it under the chin but she ran right through that numerous times and that is what I tell people when I get flack for the chain.

Note: When I used the stud chain, I NEVER snapped it or corrected her with it. I just gave her about a foot and a half of slack in the lead and kept her right at my shoulder. That way when she went to spin away she would feel that chain tighten over her nose, rather than run into it with momentum. If I could catch her before she did that, I used the dressage whip to smack her hindquarters and turn her head towards me, so instead of spinning away she would circle round me. This is an extremely dangerous vice that definitely needs to be corrected. My horse nearly ran out into the road into traffic pulling this stunt.

Check out the Monty Roberts dually halter. It has a stud chain type assembly attached to it that you lead by, except instead of a stud chain it is two pieces of soft nylon rope. She has not run through that halter yet, but I suspect if she really wanted to she could. I also ride using that attachment, it works a bit similar to a side pull and she loves it.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

LilyandPistol said:


> Leading her. It's not a big deal riding because we don't really do anything that spoops her out then. But if you try and desensitize her to anything, she does the "nope" thing and just gets the heck out of dodge.


You should try desensitizing in a closed area like a round pen. If I'm desensitizing a horse I do NOT like to use a stud chain or similar contraption. The previous information I gave you is for when a horse is refusing to lead somewhere. The point of desensitizing is to get the horse to understand that the object/thing is not scary. It has to be very well timed so that you can give a release and take the object away for the smallest improvement (you need to be extremely good at reading their body language). You should never desensitize a horse while tied. Making them feel trapped and like they have nowhere to run is not going to do it. Remember fight or flight. If the horse can't get away they may try attacking the object or even you.

Personally, I don't bother too much with desensitizing. Certain horses do not respond well to it. Some horses I've worked with we can go at it all day and get them fine with it by the end of it, the very next day they think its the devil again. For months on end. So IMO if its not an issue under saddle or leading them past I don't mess with it. No reason to cause the horse undue stress over something trivial.


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

horseluvr2524 said:


> You should try desensitizing in a closed area like a round pen. If I'm desensitizing a horse I do NOT like to use a stud chain or similar contraption. The previous information I gave you is for when a horse is refusing to lead somewhere. The point of desensitizing is to get the horse to understand that the object/thing is not scary. It has to be very well timed so that you can give a release and take the object away for the smallest improvement (you need to be extremely good at reading their body language). You should never desensitize a horse while tied. Making them feel trapped and like they have nowhere to run is not going to do it. Remember fight or flight. If the horse can't get away they may try attacking the object or even you.
> 
> Personally, I don't bother too much with desensitizing. Certain horses do not respond well to it. Some horses I've worked with we can go at it all day and get them fine with it by the end of it, the very next day they think its the devil again. For months on end. So IMO if its not an issue under saddle or leading them past I don't mess with it. No reason to cause the horse undue stress over something trivial.


Yeah, I get all of that about the fight or flight thing. I also agree desensitizing to a whole lot of things is kind of pointless. However, I'm talking about things like dealing with washing her, or fly spraying her, that are often almost-necessities. I also agree that stud chains and whips are a bad idea in this situation.

I do desensitize in a closed area. But it is connected to the barn and she wants to go in there and hide and "nope" out. Its her sanctuary type spot where she feels safe. And if you block the barn off, she just nopes around all over the arena.

She's fine leading regularly for the most part. 

This is where we run into the "nope" issue. You can't hose her or fly spray her or anything similar because of her little "nope" fits I cannot control. It's like her fight and flight instincts mix.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, horses have natural flight or fight or fight, instinct, with flight the first option, and fight if that is taken away-that is the nature of the hrose, being a prey/herd species.
HOWEVER, we train them progressively in such a manner , that the physiologically they think a simple lead shank and halter controls them, along with trust in our leadership, and once a horse, through incorrect handling, or just a quirk of fate, learns that is just a bluff, that he can indeed pull away, then the horse is 'out the barn door', and you then have to undo that bad habit, with whatever it takes, so , in your case, the hrose never learns he can say no, can pull away, can drag you where he wants to go
A stud chain through the mouth, is very severe, and I have never used that restraint, even on stallions, hand breeding
Over the nose, is second in severity, and I also don't use it.
I have never needed anything beyond a stud shank run under the chin, to get a horse respectful, leading on a loose shank, never attempting to pull away.
Most horses never even need that stud shank applied, trained correctly from day one.
The longer you allow your horse to pull away, say no, learn she can drag you round, the more ingrained that habit will become, and you have a spoiled horse
She does not need desensitizing, far as learning to lead with respect, and ahorse that leads with respect, goes where asked, instead of deciding where they will or will not lead
Yes, you are working with a prey species, thus one with ingrained flight response, BUT we train a horse to control that flight reaction, through trust, consistent fair, but firm boundaries and respect.Without that conditioning, horse are pretty useless for us, far as what we expect to do with them


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## Bright Stride Equine (Oct 20, 2016)

She essentially needs to learn to focus on you more than on her fight or flight instinct.

And that is asking a lot. Especially of a horse who has gotten away with running off multiple times. Start with ensuring she is responsive to halter cues: forwards, side to side, head down. Then start desensitizing work. Start with something familiar, like a saddle pad. Let her sniff it, rub her with it, move it around, flap it on her back. Build up gradually and reward often.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with Smilie: the real problem is not that is a scaredy cat, but she does not respect the lead, that she does not have the concept of 'giving to pressure' down so strongly that she will obey it no matter the stimulus.

I used to ride a hrose that did this sort of dirty trick. he'd lead fine , until it was time to lead himn into a trailer. then, at the last minute, with zero real warning, he'd turn 90 degrees, line up his head and hind end in a straight line away from me, and pull like he was moving the Budweiser wagon on his own. NO HUMAN BEING on earth could have held him. the ONLY thing that worked was the stud chain, and a couple of short sharp yanks to say, "smarten up!". I didn't like doing that, but by golly, I did.

what my trainer said to do was improve his willingness to give to the pressure of the halter. It's the same approach , or similar, as to a horse who panics when tied.

she would use two people. one person would take the long leadline (like 15 ft.) once around a tall pole so that when the horse pulled back, they could feed SOME line if necessary but keep a firm hold with the dally around the pole. the other person would walk past the horse , behind him and far enough off to not get kicked. they would do something to worry the horse, like wave a flag, or open and close an umbrella. not AT the hrose, but just passing along. the horse will pull back, and the flag wavers' job is to flag him a bit to make him move forward, so that he gives himself some slack. the horse will usually leap to the side away from the flagger. the line holder gives a bit of slack to the hrose when the horse stops pulling. the flagger walks on by and flags the horse from the other side, getting it to move back, hit the end of the rope and come forward off the rope, at which time the flagging stops.

little by little, the horse will move away from the flag until it feels the halter tighten, then will respect that pressure and come forward, and . . eventually, they wont' worry about any kind of commotion going on behind them. if they need to move off to the side to see what's going on, the will, without panic. they'll know they have some freedom to move when tied, but also that if they hit the end of the rope, they must give and move the other way if they still need to move their feet, but to NOT fight the rope.

It's hard to explain this activity, and hard to do if you don't know how to do it, and don't have good timing. but, I guess my point is that the problem stems from your horse not respecting and giving to the halter, not that she is so afraid.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

My horse is much more full of nope than your horse, it sounds like, in that lots of things unnerve her on the ground. But she *never* pulls me around. No matter what I've got on her head. This is entirely because she was started right (not by me), and never was she allowed to put pressure on the lead rope. It is really a matter of conditioning, not emotional state.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree that this horse needs to learn a lesson and you need to have more control.

I had a pig ignorant horse that knew exactly how to set his neck and charge away. In his case it was usually going out to the field. A stud chain stopped this but the moment you didn't have that chain on he would just set his neck and charge off. 

I stopped it in one lesson. I led him down to the field and opened the gate, this was when he would charge off going up the ride between the paddocks. This day I had fixed a length of rope to the gate post. As I opened the gate so he took off. I just let him go and he had enough speed that when the rope snapped taught he went base over apex and landed on the electro rope. 

I took him back to the gate closed the gate and started again. He never tried to pull away again.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

@LilyandPistol

I tie horses that have issues with fly spray and hose. I just take it slow with them and in time they get over it. I do not make a big deal about them fidgeting around while tied, except if they move into my space or swing their hindquarters into me, and then I will use whatevers handy (within limits of course. I usually carry a dressage whip in situations like this) to get them to move off me. I do not ever spray hose or fly spray directly onto their face or extreme upper neck, I use a washcloth for both.

My mare also ran from fly spray and hoses. She got over it and will now even let me hose off her face only somewhat begrudgingly. It did take some time though, and if you try to hose her or spray her while she's loose, she will still leave (meaning totally loose, not in halter and lead). To be fair, she also walks away if you try to brush her while she's loose.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Foxhunter said:


> I agree that this horse needs to learn a lesson and you need to have more control.
> 
> I had a pig ignorant horse that knew exactly how to set his neck and charge away. In his case it was usually going out to the field. A stud chain stopped this but the moment you didn't have that chain on he would just set his neck and charge off.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I understand this. you had tied a length of rope across the gate openning, so it tripped him? or, you had tied him by a 'length of rope' to the gate post?


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

horseluvr2524 said:


> @*LilyandPistol*
> 
> I tie horses that have issues with fly spray and hose. I just take it slow with them and in time they get over it. I do not make a big deal about them fidgeting around while tied, except if they move into my space or swing their hindquarters into me, and then I will use whatevers handy (within limits of course. I usually carry a dressage whip in situations like this) to get them to move off me. I do not ever spray hose or fly spray directly onto their face or extreme upper neck, I use a washcloth for both.
> 
> My mare also ran from fly spray and hoses. She got over it and will now even let me hose off her face only somewhat begrudgingly. It did take some time though, and if you try to hose her or spray her while she's loose, she will still leave (meaning totally loose, not in halter and lead). To be fair, she also walks away if you try to brush her while she's loose.


Yes, for a horse that respects being tied, I actually 100% agree that tying them for desensitizing to washing or fly spray is perfectly fine. I wasn't going to say that since I think I'm still on most of these people's "bad side" and anything I disagree on won't help, but oh well. This is what I have to do with Pistol every spring when I re-desensitize him to the two things. Otherwise, he simply backs up as far as he can without pulling on the lead and faces me. This makes desensitizing him without spraying him in the face very hard. (I'm very glad he has the respect to keep his head toward me though.) If I take up the slack so he can't do that, he wanders around in circles and will literally do it for HOURS. The solution was tying him. I just simply had to be careful and make sure he didn't flip out. He respected his lead enough as long as I took it easy and slow and didn't hurt himself. However, Pistol had a very good trainer before I had him that did a good job of training him. Dixie, the mare I'm having issues with, did NOT. And I can't help that. But Dixie is not near as respectful of her lead as Pistol, and if tied and sprayed, she WILL hurt herself.


So maybe what I am asking is, how do I fix it? I can't help how her previous owners screwed her up on this.


How do I fix their errors?


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> I agree with Smilie: the real problem is not that is a scaredy cat, but she does not respect the lead, that she does not have the concept of 'giving to pressure' down so strongly that she will obey it no matter the stimulus.
> 
> I used to ride a hrose that did this sort of dirty trick. he'd lead fine , until it was time to lead himn into a trailer. then, at the last minute, with zero real warning, he'd turn 90 degrees, line up his head and hind end in a straight line away from me, and pull like he was moving the Budweiser wagon on his own. NO HUMAN BEING on earth could have held him. the ONLY thing that worked was the stud chain, and a couple of short sharp yanks to say, "smarten up!". I didn't like doing that, but by golly, I did.
> 
> ...


 This is a really good idea. But the only thing is I don't have a tall pole for it. Is that a necessary part?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you need someplace strong enough that with the rope 'dallied' they can hold her when she pulls back. when I saw my trainer do it, she used a beam to her covered arena. she also used the round pen, wrapping the rope once around the bar. now, I wouldn't ever advise tying a horse who pulls back to the round pen, BUT, since the horse is not actually hard tied to the bars, but rather is held by a human being holding the other end of the rope, providing resistance most of the time, and small amounts of 'give' when needed, . . .IF the horse really lays back and threatens to pull the panel up , the 'holder' can release their hold to avoid a catastrophe.

also, the tie point needs to be as close to wither height as possible.

and , remember that it is the job of the flagger to get the horse who is pulling back to MOVE FORWARD, off the rope.

also, I would do this with horse in a rope halter. if the hrose can break the halter, then it only reinforces a bad habit. you want to give them just enough rope to help them if they got into real trouble, but not allow their strategy to win.


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> you need someplace strong enough that with the rope 'dallied' they can hold her when she pulls back. when I saw my trainer do it, she used a beam to her covered arena. she also used the round pen, wrapping the rope once around the bar. now, I wouldn't ever advise tying a horse who pulls back to the round pen, BUT, since the horse is not actually hard tied to the bars, but rather is held by a human being holding the other end of the rope, providing resistance most of the time, and small amounts of 'give' when needed, . . .IF the horse really lays back and threatens to pull the panel up , the 'holder' can release their hold to avoid a catastrophe.
> 
> also, the tie point needs to be as close to wither height as possible.
> 
> ...


Hmm, you know, I think there is actually a pole in the barn I can use for this.


Thanks for the help! I'll probably try it this weekend when Dad is home and can be the "second person"


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> I'm not sure I understand this. you had tied a length of rope across the gate openning, so it tripped him? or, you had tied him by a 'length of rope' to the gate post?


The length of rope was tied across the gate opening. Doesn't sound like it was tied low enough to trip him at the ankles/fetlocks. 

I like the concept, TBH. Let the horse figure out they're being stupid on their own and decide to behave, so you don't become the "bad guy."


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I don't tie a horse solid when I wash them for the first time, nor when I use fly spray on them for the first time. I use a stud shank if needed, so I can use the approach and retreat, but the horse can't try to leave, yet does not feel, 'trapped'
Tying them solid for this de sensitization, would be considered 'flooding;, and also has the potential to create a halter puller

Far as reforming a horse, that you KNOW , understands how to give to a halter correctly (pressure ), but through in correct handling or a freak incident, learned he can pull away, I do not use a rope halter. I attended a seminar, where a vet stated he treated hroses with damage, caused by a rope halter, and when that horse pulled back
I do go for the cure, in a safe way, but I really hesitate far as describing how to use that technique, to someone that perhaps I feel, does not have the experience to use it correctly, without some supervision
I will tie that horse with a body rope, in a safe place. Done correctly, it will cure a horse of halter pulling, while also not putting all the strain on the neck muscles, should the hrose set baCK.
If a horse knows how to tie, but has learned he can break loose, I don't allow him to pull, get slack by doing so, either with a tie ring or a person holding around a post. The only way that horse gets slack, is by giving to that pressure, moving forward, and hense, the body rope use, along with a double stitched nylon halter and good hardware (no snaps)
If he needs to learn to give to pressure, then I agree on giving some release, by holding the horse, as described, or simply getting him truly 100% to giving to pressure, before ever tying him


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@LilyandPistol I hope you have someone knowledgeable to help you. I am feeling a bit of unease about making that suggestion to you. it's got to be done right to avoid a disaster.

you have to release the rope only enough to avoid the horse totally shutting down, but if you release too much, the horse doesn't learn to hard tie. I was happy watching my trainer do it, and working as the 'flagger', but I was glad to have her direction , too. would not feel as confident doing it without her guidance.


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

@tinyliny


I haven't had anyone in person in real life to help me out in a long time. I'm still alive  I understand the concern though. But I don't have anyone, no.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

LilyandPistol said:


> I haven't had anyone in person in real life to help me out in a long time. *I'm still alive * I understand the concern though. But I don't have anyone, no.


Not trying to be mean at all, but just because you're still alive doesn't mean that your horses are well-trained or that you fixed the problem correctly. Something like what is going on with Dixie will take a deft, knowledgeable hand and impeccable timing. You freely admit that you don't have any of that. Unfortunately, we can give you all the advice in the world, but implementing it correctly and safely is a whole different ball game. This is a dangerous habit she has. My gelding has "noped" on me once, in the manner that Dixie is doing so. I ended up with two dislocated fingers, a severely sprained wrist, and a battered/bloody face from colliding with the ground. I have the knowledge to deal with the behavior and prevent it from happening again and becoming a habit. You do not and I fear you're going to get hurt because you don't.


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Not trying to be mean at all, but just because you're still alive doesn't mean that your horses are well-trained or that you fixed the problem correctly. Something like what is going on with Dixie will take a deft, knowledgeable hand and impeccable timing. You freely admit that you don't have any of that. Unfortunately, we can give you all the advice in the world, but implementing it correctly and safely is a whole different ball game. This is a dangerous habit she has. My gelding has "noped" on me once, in the manner that Dixie is doing so. I ended up with two dislocated fingers, a severely sprained wrist, and a battered/bloody face from colliding with the ground. I have the knowledge to deal with the behavior and prevent it from happening again and becoming a habit. You do not and I fear you're going to get hurt because you don't.


 I agree, but there's nothing I can do about it. Unfortunately, I haven't the money myself for a trainer, and nobody in my family is going to pay it for me. The only "experienced" person I know that could possibly come for free is a man I highly disagree with on everything. And I am _certainly _not getting rid of Dixie. Honestly, training her out of this behavior seems much less dangerous than putting up with it, so that's what I am going with.


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## Kay Armstrong (Jun 28, 2015)

I'm not sure I read in the original post how old Dixie is..?? It would make a big difference in the way I would correct the behavior if she knew better or if she's learning....


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I'm not sure I understand this. you had tied a length of rope across the gate openning, so it tripped him? or, you had tied him by a 'length of rope' to the gate post?


The long length of rope, about 50 yards, and with a 3 ton breaking strain, was tied to the gate post not across the gateway. He had enough length to be in a good gallop stride when it pulled him up hard. I was still at the gate when he came down and I swear he thought I had stopped him!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

> Just too concerned to stay. Like, "Sorry, I have to go now."


Why is the horse too concerned to stay? You say it is stubbornness or something like that. Would that be why you would opt out of the scary situation in the horror game yourself? You were feeling pig headed? Or truly frightened?

I'm not sure why the horse would be thought of as stubborn because what you are describing is a horse that is running from something that has overfaced her. To me, "*too concerned*," is the same thing as too frightened. Fear is not stubbornness. If someone wanted you to walk down a dark alley at night alone, if you don't want to do it you are not being "stubborn." It won't help if they grab you and force you in there. You will run away as soon as you are able.

Fear is not something that we can just say "stop, don't be scared!" You have to discover how to get your horse over fear without overwhelming her to the point where she must run away. You have to stop introducing the new thing before it becomes too concerning. As we've talked about elsewhere on this forum, the best way to get over a fear of spiders is not to be tied up and have spiders thrown all over you. That won't work for most people. Instead, it might make you more scared of spiders. 

To get over a fear, you have to become convinced that something will not harm you. Horses are better at this than people because they have less psychological hangups. Usually with horses, if they are afraid of fly spray, we can first show them the bottle, and watch to see if this is "too concerning." If it begins to concern the horse, we will put the bottle away. Then we try again. Gradually, we work our way up to touching the horse with the bottle, and then making the squirt sound from far away. Any time things are too concerning, you stop before the horse feels the need to leave. You can do this on a lead rope, so the horse has some incentive to stay long enough to learn the lesson. But never let the horse feel trapped. If the horse leaves, you went too fast. Start over a little slower.

If you keep over facing the horse, the horse will want to "nope" out of more and more things and lose trust in you. If you desensitize the horse to things slowly instead of overwhelming her, she will stop saying "nope" and begin to trust you more and more.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

while I agree with you Gottatrot, in terms of never assuming fear is not a very strong motivator to horse behavior, and trying approach and retreat to help a horse who has a very ingrained fear, one of the reasons we teach a horse to give to pressure, . . the pressure produced when they resist to the halter/lead, is so that we can help them learn to deal with things that scare them. in ways other than just bolting, just leaving. 

we arne't saying ''you aren't afraid" . we are saying, "stay with me, I'll help you". if we cannot get a horse to really understand the meaning of the rope, and of being tied or lead, it is very hard to work with them in almost every other factor. 
unless you are practically a horse whisperer who doesn't need ropes or halters, the horse will not be available to you to help them change their reaction. you have to have the ability to stop them from fleeing , either with a round pen, or a rope, in order to get them to change things.

yes, approach and retreat can help, but if the horse uses this 'I'm outta here' philosphy for other things, such as things she just doesnt' want to do , like be ridden, or get into a trailer , you have no real options to change that. you need a horse that respects the rope for darn near everything where humans direct horses.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree with @tinyliny as well. 

My response is based on my interpretation of the OP's words. What I read is that the horse rides well, apparently has been taught to lead and such, but the "nope" comes in when the horse is "too concerned." Reading between the lines, I am only guessing, but visualizing a horse that can behave, knows how to do things such as get tacked up and go for rides, but becomes easily frightened by new things. If this is when the horse feels she must leave, then it is a fight or flight response and a way to deal with this _possibly_ is to not push the horse to that point of fear. 

I am also basing this response on horses I've known who were trained to lead and tie and such, but if pushed hard enough would resort to escape. Most horses will not disregard trained responses unless they feel it is life or death. But some horses think "life or death" much more easily than others. Horses often stay in their fences, and believe there is no way out. But if something comes to kill them, they will try to break out, life or death. 

The horse does need reinforcement of training to lead and tie. The horse also knows _and will always know_, that she can escape if she tries hard enough. Just because a horse is taught to give to pressure or that he can't get loose, that doesn't mean he won't try if he ever believes his life depends on it. Because of this, I believe it can be helpful to teach a new learned response, which is that the handler is not going to introduce things that need escaping, but instead can be trusted, brings good things and pleasant times. 

But again, I am going off the OP's response of the horse being concerned i.e. fearful rather than just knowing she can run off to eat her food at will. Which would be far easier to just shut down with a couple times of not getting away with it. In that case, a strong response will teach the horse, as suggested by others.


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## Fimargue (Jun 19, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> now, I wouldn't ever advise tying a horse who pulls back to the round pen, BUT, since the horse is not actually hard tied to the bars, but rather is held by a human being holding the other end of the rope, providing resistance most of the time, and small amounts of 'give' when needed, . . .IF the horse really lays back and threatens to pull the panel up , the 'holder' can release their hold to avoid a catastrophe.


That is exactly how I have dealt with a horse who constantly pulled free when being led.

Lunge line around a resistant pole, holding the other end of it if needed. At first another person holding the lead rope as well, for her to get the hint that no matter what she tried, she couldn't get away from the handler with force.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> The long length of rope, about 50 yards, and with a 3 ton breaking strain, was tied to the gate post not across the gateway. He had enough length to be in a good gallop stride when it pulled him up hard. I was still at the gate when he came down and I swear he thought I had stopped him!


Worked like a running W!
Horses sure learned to 'whoa' using it, though I imagine all did not survive!
Glad it worked out well in your case!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Guess I don't read into the OP's post the same as you, Trottin.
I do not see a horse that fears for it's life, thus causing her to resist training she understands, but a horse that has learned she can pull away, rear, 'whenever faced with something unpleasant'
The OP does not know how to get a horse used to fly spray, a water hose, by using the graducal approach and retreat, yet not loose control of the horse
Not that I agree with anyone putting a chain through the mouth of that horse, like the farrier did, but that also shows me a horse that lacks a lot of basic good training and respect
The horse is 'mostly okay riding', as the OP says she never challenges her with anything-ie packing a person around abit, in acomofrt zone, does not mean that horse is great under saddle


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I think some of you are making the situation more complicated than it is. 

Mare has girls number, mare knows she can get away with being an ignorant piglet, mare becomes ignorant piglet. 

Honestly, I would not be one little bit afraid to give her a few good yanks with that lead rope when she just decides that she doesn't want to listen anymore. Once I would get her attention again, I'd lunge her in a couple circles each way and carry on.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

You're probably right


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

She needs to learn to give to pressure - not when she feels like it, but when you ask. 

She also needs to know that when she decides to try to escape instead of looking to you for help and guidance, she's going to have to work much harder than she would have if she had stayed. 

Let me use an example of my own horse. He's still adjusting to living in a herd situation, and he came to us very herd bound due to his past boarding situation. The first time I took him out of his pasture, he screamed and called for 20 minutes, and would not stand still. So, I took him to an area where he could move, and each time he decided not to stand still, I made him move his feet by twirling the end of the lead rope at his hip, and occasionally whacking him with it if he didn't move fast enough. He could call and scream all he wanted as long as his feet were moving. I would give him an opportunity to stop moving and stand quietly with me, and if he took that, then I let him rest. Once we were calmed and he was listening and attentive to me, I was able to pet him, be pleasant, and make standing still an oh-so-wonderful experience! 


So let's use this same concept - you're leading her, and she decides "NOPE NOT GONNA DO THAT". Keep her off balance by forcing her to move her hip over while bringing her head in toward you (with you staying centered between head and hip so she can't either kick out or rush into you), quickly enough to where she can't quite get up enough speed to push through it. Any time she decides to leave, keep her off balance and circling. You might have to do it for 10, 15, 20, or 30 minutes. 

The point is, she needs to know that leaving is not an option - or, if she decides to take that option, she's going to work harder than she would if she had stayed. You also need to be consistent with her and correct her each time she gets out of line, or attempts to get away. 

I'd also work on teaching her a head-lowering cue. It's very easy to do, and you can practice it wherever you are. In the stall, tacking up, grooming, etc. She learns that when she lowers her head, the pressure goes away - but you do it little by little. A scared horse doesn't want to graze - lowering their head is an easy way to help bring them back down to a "thinking" mindset instead of a "reacting" one.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, yes, many of us here have suggested that the Op get the help of a trainer, but if you read all of the OPs posts, you will see that getting a trainer, is not an option open for her, thus the attempt to give some advise she might be able to use by herself, even though,,not ideal solution
Making them 'work' is one tool, when they don't focus on you, but on a horse that has learned they can pull away whenever they have enough of an excuse to do so , and believe me, it will take less and less to make her do so, if not corrected, I use whatever it takes, to stop them, convince them that I can indeed both stop that attempted pulling away, and even make trying to do so, uncomfortable
Rope halter is enough at times, but, i am quite comfortable with a stud shank run under the chin, long enough that it gives immediate release,when the horse gives. On a horse that I know might go up, try to jerk away, I will use along enough lead shank that I can go with the horse when he goes up , and also give him a reprimand, or stop him in his tracks, if he goes to pull away
Some time spent tying solid, in a safe place, also does wonders.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I think at least there are several options here in the thread. Hopefully the OP can figure out what the primary issue is. I'm not saying I know, since I'm not standing there looking at the horse.
Whether the horse is frightened, used to running off just because the handler allows it, or never understood the training in the first place, there are some suggestions here she can try. I hope one of them will work for her and the horse. If what you try makes things worse, that is the wrong approach.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Mulefeather said:


> She needs to learn to give to pressure - not when she feels like it, but when you ask.
> 
> She also needs to know that when she decides to try to escape instead of looking to you for help and guidance, she's going to have to work much harder than she would have if she had stayed.
> 
> ...



the bolded is what one can do with a horse that just HAS to move their feet and is contemplating 'leaving' you. I wouldn't think of it as keeping them off balance, but rather letting them move, but never allowing them to line up so that they CAN barge off. that means you have to keep the head bent in toward you, and to keep the horse from coming over you, you keep the hind end moveing outward, while horse is circleing around you. it will get the horse's mind on you and your authority. but, with a horse that has learned the trick of lining up and barging off, it can be tricky becaue if for one second you don't keep the head in and the hind out enough, that horse can line up and head out and you can't stop her.

so, you have to be razor sharp in watching for that and keeping a bend in her body. don't allow her to straighten out.

once the horse HAS gotten lined up , busted free and run off, you can't punish them . you just go catch them and start again.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

That is a good technique (the off balance /moving ) on a horse that gives some warning that she is about to maybe try and leave, but not on a horse that suddenly bolts
I am not strong enough to hold a horse that decides to suddenly leave, and thus I lead a problem horse with something that gives me an 'advantage ' (not talking of a horse never taught to give to pressure, but one that has learned he does not have to, having learned their own strength, and our 'bluff', far as a plain halter and lead shank controlling him 
This horse is 'leaving Dodge', when the op tries to use fly spray or a water hose on her. In order to try and do that, you are holding that horse with one hand. Yes, you can use that hose or fly spray on the rear, having the horse travel some, while moving those hips around, but ,far as myself, I am going to have something on that head, besides a plain halter, holding with my left hand, while having that fly spray or hose in my right, knowing how far to push that horse, backing off as the horse accepts , and really rewarding that point where the horse stands, then relaxes. This is a win , win situation, as the horse is calmer at the end of this lesson, then before it started. The horse also learned that dancing around, did not result in avoiding that spray or hose, and finally, the realization, 'hey, it does not hurt at all, and is harmless, and maybe I'll trust my handler more next time"!


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## SomethingSpecial (Aug 14, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Well, yes, many of us here have suggested that the Op get the help of a trainer, but if you read all of the OPs posts, you will see that getting a trainer, is not an option open for her, thus the attempt to give some advise she might be able to use by herself, even though,,not ideal solution
> Making them 'work' is one tool, when they don't focus on you, but on a horse that has learned they can pull away whenever they have enough of an excuse to do so , and believe me, it will take less and less to make her do so, if not corrected, I use whatever it takes, to stop them, convince them that I can indeed both stop that attempted pulling away, and even make trying to do so, uncomfortable
> Rope halter is enough at times, but, i am quite comfortable with a stud shank run under the chin, long enough that it gives immediate release,when the horse gives. On a horse that I know might go up, try to jerk away, I will use along enough lead shank that I can go with the horse when he goes up , and also give him a reprimand, or stop him in his tracks, if he goes to pull away
> Some time spent tying solid, in a safe place, also does wonders.


OP is a quite young beginner minor. I'm not sure she has the strength/knowhow/or timing to do any of what was suggested in this thread. IIRC, these horses are her grandfathers.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the OP can do use a stud shank, and can /wants to try. she has no access to a trainer. 
while it can be tricky, at least she isn't just saying, "oh well. she got away with it AGAIN". a try is worth it, IMO.


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## SomethingSpecial (Aug 14, 2015)

LilyandPistol said:


> My mare Dixie, when faced with an unpleasant situation, *will occasionally rear*, then turn around and "nope" back to the barn, and can only be stopped about 50% of the time, by digging your heels in and fighting her with all your might in a non-victorious tug-of-war.
> Rope halters don't help either. All that does is make her shake her head as well.
> I seriously think if she could talk she would seriously be saying, "Nope, nope nope, nope, NOPE!" :gallop:


I really think her experienced grandfather should help with this. IME it's quite easy to escalate the situation to something dangerous. especially if this horse IS fearful and not just being a jerk, it could get dangerous quickly when extra pressure is applied.

bullheadishness, sure. Rearing, absolutely not for a child to be handling.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

When the horse 'nopes' out where does she go back to? Is it the barn or the fields?

Any animal only has to get away with something a couple of times and it is a learned behaviour.
@Smilie, the rope was tied high on the gate post and long enough that the horse could get into a good canter but not flat out. Not a thing I have used very often and I know the risks. Quite honestly if the horse will not learn with the usual methods then if anything untoward happened then it was probably for the best.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I have a couple of 'last resort' tools that I can use when I get a horse who has no ground manners. If we can work through issues without a lot of heavy handedness, that's great but when the horse has learned that they can run you over, pull away and just be plain difficult, then I will resort to whatever is needed. I don't use a lot of stud chain, just because by using one you can mark up a halter horse pretty good, not a good thing if you scar one up. 

First thing I will try is when the horse gets strong and tries to bolt or run me down is a version of Parelli's 'Half Circle' game. I have a couple of large trees in my front yard and when the horse gets out of control, I move to where they end up going around the tree and they check themselves, hard. I still have the rope but it's their inertia that puts a stop to the nonsense. I stand on the far side of the tree and let them get moving, and then I step over to where my end of the rope is now around the tree in a half circle and when the horse hits the end of the lead or lunge line, it's their body weight working against them. The full force of their running away doesn't ever hit me, it's absorbed by the tree. A few times of doing that, and they have taught themselves that bolting or bulling isn't a great idea. 

My last resort for a horse who doesn't respect or give to pressure is a Be Nice halter. I don't use it often because it's a very strong correction, but with one who just comes with so many bad habits, it's a quick way to get the horse under control so you can move forward in training. Timing is EVERYTHING with one of these halters as the release is key to training the horse, so it's not for everyone.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

SomethingSpecial said:


> OP is a quite young beginner minor. I'm not sure she has the strength/knowhow/or timing to do any of what was suggested in this thread. IIRC, these horses are her grandfathers.


And I am a fat, slow lady with a back injury and bad knees - if I can correct 1200 pounds of stubborn draft pony, she can correct her horse. The only thing she may be lacking is the confidence to do so. 

As far as the sudden bolt, in that instance you may have to set the horse up to succeed. I worked with a mule gelding who had a bad habit of dragging kids and other people when he didn't want to work anymore, or just decided he'd had enough of whatever they were doing. I used the technique I described with a chain over his nose the first time - trying to suddenly leave earned him a correction and having to work. He was a smart cookie, though, and I only had to do this once. I made standing still and allowing handling into the Best Thing Ever - praise, scratching itchy spots, and all release of pressure. That said, he still needed consistency - he knew who would and would not correct his bad behavior - a typical mule. 

Setting them up, in this instance, means having a game plan and studying when the horse decides to leave. If you're bathing the horse, it might mean paying attention to WHY she's choosing to leave - is the water too cold? Are you spraying her in the face, or working too quickly? Is there something spooky or unsettling around the wash rack? 

Since she's already associating that place with something unpleasant, I'd work on just getting her to stand quietly in that place - no water, no bathing, just stand quietly. It keeps the goal small and approachable, and keeps both of OP's hands free to correct and move. She's successful, gets praise and release of pressure, and doesn't get bathed. Repeating this helps break the association where she heads toward this spot, and she's squaring up for a fight or to bolt.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Mia bolted east, but I was ready...I bolted north. When we both hit the end of the rein, she was spun around 180 facing the saddle on the ground._"

Wrote that a long time ago, but the technique has worked well for me. If a horse explodes to the east, pulling west does no good. But if I throw myself perpendicular, my 165 lbs will spin 900 lbs of horse. Haven't owned any bigger horses, so don't know about them.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

That does disengage them, BSMS, but I sure would not be able to do that, esp on horses that range in weight around 1,200, and hate to think of the torque on my knees!
Nope, I'll cheat, and use that chain and disengage those hips before the horse even gets anywhere near a bolt. Whatever works, long as that horse does not get to leave, weather by himself or dragging the human!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I have a couple of 'last resort' tools that I can use when I get a horse who has no ground manners. If we can work through issues without a lot of heavy handedness, that's great but when the horse has learned that they can run you over, pull away and just be plain difficult, then I will resort to whatever is needed. I don't use a lot of stud chain, just because by using one you can mark up a halter horse pretty good, not a good thing if you scar one up.
> 
> *First thing I will try is when the horse gets strong and tries to bolt or run me down is a version of Parelli's 'Half Circle' game. I have a couple of large trees in my front yard and when the horse gets out of control, I move to where they end up going around the tree and they check themselves, hard. I still have the rope but it's their inertia that puts a stop to the nonsense. I stand on the far side of the tree and let them get moving, and then I step over to where my end of the rope is now around the tree in a half circle and when the horse hits the end of the lead or lunge line, it's their body weight working against them. The full force of their running away doesn't ever hit me, it's absorbed by the tree. A few times of doing that, and they have taught themselves that bolting or bulling isn't a great idea. *
> 
> My last resort for a horse who doesn't respect or give to pressure is a Be Nice halter. I don't use it often because it's a very strong correction, but with one who just comes with so many bad habits, it's a quick way to get the horse under control so you can move forward in training. Timing is EVERYTHING with one of these halters as the release is key to training the horse, so it's not for everyone.



this is essentially what I was describing with having the horse's line dallied , then held by one person, while another makes the hrose move with a flag.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> this is essentially what I was describing with having the horse's line dallied , then held by one person, while another makes the hrose move with a flag.


Yes, this is just my 'one man' version because I rarely have anyone around to help and if I do, they're frequently not real experienced with green/rank horses and I don't want to get anyone hurt.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

What I find so funny, about the 'Be Nice ' halter, is that it comes from Parelli, thus NH, but is in fact, a version of the nerve line.

Not directed at you Dream, but many of those who follow NH, are okay with using "be Nice halters,use rope halter for regular handling, yet are aghast at anyone using a stud shank!

Bottom line, through correct training, a horse is conditioned to accept that a plain halter and lead shank control him, and thus on these horses one seldom has to even consider Be Nice Halters, stud shanks (except of course, used like spurs, to teach lightness, for a horse shown in hand, which has nothing to do with needing it for 'control), BUT, once a horse has learned that he can pull away, no matter the reason, you use whatever it takes, so he is not successful in future attempts
Hopefully, the bad habit is then at least mostly eliminated, and one can go back to using that plain halter and lead shank, while realizing that horse will never have that clean slate of mind, and might , revert tot hat vise again, depending on handler or circumstances, thus might need 'reminders from time to time.
This is also why it is so important to practice an 'ounce of prevention, versus a pound of cure,' in all horse training
Do not ride where you can't, until you have the training on the horse, to ride where now you cannot. Do not attempt to do something with a horse, where you are not prepared to keep control of the situation
In other words, if that horse is not 100 % on giving to pressure, decides where he will or will not lead, don't attempt to use fly spray, wash the horse, until you are set up for success, thus never implanting a bad  habit
Anyone can be caught unaware, once, and have ahorse pull away, but after that, makes little sense to keep doing the same thing, and expect different results


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, trees work good to give you that extra physical help, and I have used it, but the flag makes not much sense to me, as you are encouraging the horse to move, then correcting him for it
I still find the chain under the chin, with an extra long cotton lead shank , works best for me,as trees are often not there where you need them!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Smilie said:


> What I find so funny, about the 'Be Nice ' halter, is that it comes from Parelli, thus NH, but is in fact, a version of the nerve line.
> 
> Not directed at you Dream, but many of those who follow NH, are okay with using "be Nice halters,use rope halter for regular handling, yet are aghast at anyone using a stud shank!
> 
> ...


Nothing personal taken Smilie. I think you and I are pretty much mostly on the same page when it comes to dangerous behaviors. You fix it NOW with whatever is at hand. And I pretty much use whatever tools I think I need to sort an issue, don't really get all up in the air about any of them, as long as they're used fairly to fix a problem and then you let go, not punitive. 

A less NH person than me you'd be hard pressed to find, except where I've found something that works or to use as a description that people can use to look up examples, i.e. Parelli Games. I don't do a single other thing the Parelli way, but do like the games with young foals to teach respect and get them used to pressure and working, and I like his Carrot Stick. Just the right weight and size. 

I got introduced to a Be Nice halter when I got a stallion in who was prone to rear anytime he thought he ought to throw his weight around. He was, as are many Arab stallions, very adept at going up and taking the lead shank away from you with a swipe of his hoof and because of over use of a stud chain, he was pretty much impervious to that. So, enter the Be Nice (forget who told me about it but ... good tool.) halter. I could read this guy like a book, so when he'd start to get light in front, I would just lean on the lead rope a little and the lighter he got, the more I leaned until he learned that going up was a bad idea and hurt his poor little brain. I think I used that halter everyday for about a week, then he just wore it for another one and then just every now and then I'd put it on him, just as a reminder that I could and would do whatever it took to correct him. After a month or 2, I never used it again, but I bought all the available sizes, just in case. They're still hanging in my garage with the other halters, but I don't think I've actually taken one down to use in 5 or 6 years.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, I believe we are both 'old school' enough, but with a mix of the right amount of 'enlightened' horse training, that includes empathy, fairness, to get the that correct 'balance' a topic I posted recently.
That balance creates horses who understand who is leading who, in a fair, clear manner, and that results in horses, that feel secure, happy and confident.
I am in no way advocating abuse, nor harsh methods gone to as a primary training format,but I also am not going to apologize for using what it takes, to correct a horse that understands accepted behavior, but has learned he does not need to comply, that he can intimidate a human, can question as to who is leading who, and a horse that becomes dangerous.
Yes, judgement is needed, for my favorite quote to be applied,, but it remains a basic 'gem', far as I;m concerned:
Be as gentle with a horse as possible, BUT also as firm as needed, to make that horse ", good 'citizen'


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Yes, I believe we are both 'old school' enough, but with a mix of the right amount of 'enlightened' horse training, that includes empathy, fairness, to get the that correct 'balance' a topic I posted recently.
> That balance creates horses who understand who is leading who, in a fair, clear manner, and that results in horses, that feel secure, happy and confident.
> I am in no way advocating abuse, nor harsh methods gone to as a primary training format,but I also am not going to apologize for using what it takes, to correct a horse that understands accepted behavior, but has learned he does not need to comply, that he can intimidate a human, can question as to who is leading who, and a horse that becomes dangerous.
> Yes, judgement is needed, for my favorite quote to be applied,, but it remains a basic 'gem', far as I;m concerned:
> Be as gentle with a horse as possible, BUT also as firm as needed, to make that horse ", good 'citizen'


Exactly


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

SomethingSpecial said:


> I really think her experienced grandfather should help with this. IME it's quite easy to escalate the situation to something dangerous. especially if this horse IS fearful and not just being a jerk, it could get dangerous quickly when extra pressure is applied.
> 
> bullheadishness, sure. Rearing, absolutely not for a child to be handling.


My grandfather is less experienced than me. Sorry to disappoint.  He simply THINKS he knows everything.


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> When the horse 'nopes' out where does she go back to? Is it the barn or the fields?
> 
> Any animal only has to get away with something a couple of times and it is a learned behaviour.


The barn, normally. And, if you block off the barn, she just runs around or sticks her head in.


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

Mulefeather said:


> And I am a fat, slow lady with a back injury and bad knees - if I can correct 1200 pounds of stubborn draft pony, she can correct her horse. The only thing she may be lacking is the confidence to do so.
> 
> As far as the sudden bolt, in that instance you may have to set the horse up to succeed. I worked with a mule gelding who had a bad habit of dragging kids and other people when he didn't want to work anymore, or just decided he'd had enough of whatever they were doing. I used the technique I described with a chain over his nose the first time - trying to suddenly leave earned him a correction and having to work. He was a smart cookie, though, and I only had to do this once. I made standing still and allowing handling into the Best Thing Ever - praise, scratching itchy spots, and all release of pressure. That said, he still needed consistency - he knew who would and would not correct his bad behavior - a typical mule.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much, for the advice and that first part. Out of all the doubting and, on occasion, passive aggressive things people say, it's really refreshing to see encouragement. Thank you so,so much.


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

Kay Armstrong said:


> I'm not sure I read in the original post how old Dixie is..?? It would make a big difference in the way I would correct the behavior if she knew better or if she's learning....


She's 15.


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## Kay Armstrong (Jun 28, 2015)

Ah well then if she's 15 she should know better. 

Sounds like she needs a come to Jesus meeting. She definitely needs to know who's boss, then she'll learn to trust you and will look to you for direction when she encounters something she is unsure about.

You'll have to really learn to read her body language and predict what she is going to do next. For example when my filly goes from the pasture to the barn...she shakes her head once or twice before she decides to get excited.

When that happens I know what to expect.

You'll have to learn her "language" to predict what she is going to do. When you enter a pasture and you think she is going to run...you'll have to make the lead rope really short and make sure her head follows you as you turn to close the gate...that way she can't get the drop and you and have enough rope to run....


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## Greymark (Nov 16, 2016)

Not saying I'd recommend it, but I remember my grandpa telling me they had a team of Percheron mares like that, every time they'd go out to the bush to cut wood or haul logs they'd stop, turn and take off back to the barn. One day he hitched them to a tree and when they decided to pull their little trick they got the surprise of their lives! Never did do it again he said.


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