# Horse doesn't like being tied up?



## stubbornamber (Jun 13, 2019)

Hello! I have a slight issue with my horse and I was hoping someone could give me any advice/tips which could help us sort it out. I'll try keep it short but no promises! So, around 10 months ago, my mum and I bought a lovely Zangersheide mare. At the dealers yard she was very calm and allowed herself to be tied on both side of the halter where she stood to be tacked up and washed down. So we bought her and she has been extremely lovely, a bit nappy but every horse comes with their issues and I'm able to handle it.

The main issue I'm having with her, currently, is that she doesn't like being tied up with her head facing the wall, if that makes sense. So this makes hoof picking, the farrier, standing by the trailer, grooming outside ect. extremely difficult. Whenever we tie her up and try to do something, she completely flips and rears in an attempt to get out - this always results in the strap holding her breaking which seems to cause more issues. We have tried a few times but have eventually given up and have simply decided to hold her in hand instead, which she is fine with. 

We're a bit stuck on what to do because we don't want to cause her any unnecessary stress or put anyone (horse and people) in risk of injury because she doesn't like to be tied up. My stable doesn't offer the choice of having two clips on either side of the halter, so that's out of the question. I was wondering if anyone had tips on how to keep her calm and realise nothing bad will happen to her when she's tied up? I would like to stress that I don't feel as this is done out of any hate or anger, she is fairly skittish (We suspect an abusive owner in the past with how she acts) so we worry that she had a bad experience with it in the past and is now terrified. 

Thank you in advance x


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

You state that this mare “doesn’t like being tied up with her head facing the wall” but stood calmly when tied on both sides of the halter at the dealer’s yard. To understand why the horse reacts differently, try to envision things from the horse’s perspective.

Was the horse able to look around at familiar surroundings when tied at the dealer’s yard? Were the ropes on either side taut or slack?

When you tie her, is she tied up short or is there slack in the rope so she can look around?

You might also look into using a tying method that provides some “give” such as the Blocker Tie Ring or the B-SAFE Horse Tie.


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## Aprilswissmiss (May 12, 2019)

You may want to start by working on teaching her how to give to poll pressure. To most horses, that's enough to keep them from pulling so hard they break something, since they move forward again once they feel the pressure of the halter on their poll.

HOWEVER... If your horse is truly that skittish, I can understand how this position does, and might always, make her nervous. In her mind, anything can come up from behind her, and she has no way to turn around to face what's "attacking" her. On top of that, if she's already broken out of ties a few times before, she's learned that the pressure goes away if she fights it enough.

So instead, I would think it might be best to teach her how to ground tie. That way, there's nothing to be scared of since she doesn't have to face a wall, and nothing to fight her and make her even more scared if she decides to be nervous about something. In the meantime while she's learning to ground tie but hasn't mastered it, you'll always be a few steps away to grab the lead rope if she decides to wander off - at least that's assuming you're not leaving her alone while she's ground tied. And her wandering off at a gentle walk is much safer than her bolting in sheer fright after breaking through a tie.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

How is she if someone holds her with her head facing a wall? Some horses do not like facing something solid like a wall or trailer because they are anxious when they can't see around them. 

I would work with this mare on really understanding how to be tied and how to give to pressure. Google the "Blocker Tie Ring" and there is likely something similar in the UK, or one can be made from a snaffle bit cut in half. The idea of this ring is that the horse is 'tied' to the ring with a long, smooth rope. If she pulls back, the rope applies some pressure but not a lot and runs through the ring, but never really releases her. She'll stop pulling, stand, think it through, and then you pull the rope up snug again. She never really gets enough pressure to set back hard, and each time she does set back, it will generally be less than the time before. When she does stand ok, work on moving her feet from side to side so she realizes she can move sideways, but not backward. Also work with her leading to make sure she really understands how to give to poll pressure.

If you don't want to use a blocker ring, outfit her with a long rope and a competent handler who can 'read a horse' and is wearing gloves. Run the rope through a ring and have the handler stand at her head holding the end of the rope. If the mare pulls back, the handler lets the rope run through the ring until the mare stops, then leads her back forward again. The concept is the same. Gradually the handler can stand farther and farther back as the mare becomes more comfortable. I've used this method quite a few times with horses who pull back when tied to a trailer, and it works well. At first I'll have the horse standing about 8' away from the trailer, and as they get more comfortable, stepping them up one step at a time until they're up next to it. 

If all else fails, teach her to hobble or ground tie. I'd also have this mare's vision checked, and get some physio/chiropractic done on her neck and poll. A horse that has pulled back hard often has something out of place, and then pulling back triggers even more pain the next time, which makes the horse anxious and more likely to pull back, and it becomes a vicious circle. A couple of horses I've been around who had issues tied next to a solid object like a wall had vision troubles of one sort or another.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

While she may well have had 'issues' previously, it is entirely possible she was fine before & 'napping', skittish, freaking when tied etc are all things she's acquired since coming to you.

Horses are naturally nervous in new situations, to different degrees. Ditto for being trapped & unable to escape, move their feet as needed to feel safe. So to have come to a new place, different horses, people who may or may not be experienced.... Then to be 'trapped' on top of that... So I don't tend to just treat any new horse as 'completely broke' but rather I approach stuff in a way that I can reassure & teach, if I find a 'hole' in behaviour or training. 

Horses also tend to be/feel more confined in crossties - I hate them personally - and I doubt that your tying her to a single point has anything to do with her reactivity.

It's great that you realise she & others are in danger if you just tie her. It's also great you realise she's not doing it from 'hate or anger'. IME those emotional responses are extremely rare in horses(& not about pulling back/flipping when tied) and they are an outcome of how they're treated - even if a horse is nasty aggressive, it usually starts as a defensive behaviour.

I would try to work out & address why she is 'skittish' first. Though she could be just innately nervy, there are often other reasons. Extra magnesium in her diet & low potassium can both help. Too much 'high octane' feed could of course have her bouncing off walls. So pays to consider diet & nutrition as well as management.

Then I'd tackle tying as if she's never been tied. No 1 thing is DON'T tie her up until she's well & truly ready. As TX suggested above, using something like a 'blocker tie ring', or if you have smooth round rails, to just wrap once around with a long rope...


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## stubbornamber (Jun 13, 2019)

Hello @TXhorseman !

When we tie her up, we tend to leave the rope as slack as possible without making it dangerous so she can twist her body around and look behind her if she wishes to. We have a feeling that what she doesn't like is the resistance she get's when she pulls back - which is why she is completely fine when she's faced the same way but with someone holding her in hand instead of her being tied up because she has that ability to move around if she wishes to. 

The stables comes equipped with the Blocker Tie Ring and our trailer uses the B-SAFE horse tie and, unfortunately, she has had an aversion to both of those when we have tried to tie her up.

However, the idea of allowing her to look around may just work because the wash bay (where we tend to do most activities) is blocked off from the rest of the barn and she does get a bit stressy when she's away from her herd.

Thank you x


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## stubbornamber (Jun 13, 2019)

Hi @Aprilswissmiss !

I've never heard of Ground Tying before but, after watching a few videos on it, I'm definitely going to try it out with my mare. 

Thank you very much x


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## stubbornamber (Jun 13, 2019)

Hello @loosie !

We have altered her diet to try keep her nice and calm due to how panicky she got when she first arrived at my stables, and all of her food is low sugar (Stay Cool & Hi-Fi Light) and we have recently started her on E-Calm to try see if this would help with her stressy nature as she tends to worry about things that aren't there.

And because we already use a Blocker Tie Ring and we still get the same reaction, it was suggested to me by April that I try ground tying which I feel might be the best course of action so that she doesn't become stressed when she realises she is unable to move her head. 

And it may well be that these issues developed since coming to our barn but I can't really see that being the cause. Simply because the horse we saw at the dealers yard (who was very starved and not well looked after) is a lot different to the horse we have now (who is well fed and very pampered). However, it may be that we introduced things wrong to her and now we have to take a step back and start from the beginning again - which will hopefully we worth it in the future! 

Thank you x


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## stubbornamber (Jun 13, 2019)

Hi @SilverMaple !

Sophie (my mare) seems to be completely fine with being held when facing the wall. She still tends to pull back at random times but then settles when we don't yell at her and simply wait for her to calm down before resuming what we were doing without fuss. And the few times we have tried to tie her up, we have always left the rope slack enough that she can twist and move her body if she wants to. However, as soon as she realises there is a pressure holding her, she freaks out.

We do use the Blocker Tie Ring at my stable and it, sadly, doesn't help. We have tried to keep her tied so it gives it but doesn't break but that only serves to make her panic more until it's dangerous for everyone involved. We don't want to risk someone get hit or Sophie falling and hurting herself while she panics so, whilst I truly wish it worked, I'm sad to say that, that method doesn't work. We are definitely going to be working with her leading as she gets a bit...strong when we take her out and she tends to knock you with her shoulder if the other mares are out and she isn't. However, in our eyes, that's more to do with us being a bit lax with manners and that's something we have to fix separately.

If you don't want to use a blocker ring, outfit her with a long rope and a competent handler who can 'read a horse' and is wearing gloves. Run the rope through a ring and have the handler stand at her head holding the end of the rope. If the mare pulls back, the handler lets the rope run through the ring until the mare stops, then leads her back forward again. The concept is the same. Gradually the handler can stand farther and farther back as the mare becomes more comfortable. I've used this method quite a few times with horses who pull back when tied to a trailer, and it works well. At first I'll have the horse standing about 8' away from the trailer, and as they get more comfortable, stepping them up one step at a time until they're up next to it. 

I certainly haven't heard of the method with the long rope and the ring, so it definitely might be worth trying when we are able to find someone who is able to see an event before it happens. When we had her vetting done, the vet did mention there is some part of her eye that's a bit damaged but they assured us that this wouldn't affect her in any way...might have to look into that a bit more to see if there's something they were missing out on. 

I'm 100% going to be trying to Ground Tie method as that's probably the calmest way of sorting this issue out, so I can only hope it will help after a few weeks of working on it with her.

Thank you very much x


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

If she's unmannerly and pushing against you when being led, there's half your problem. She doesn't behave because she knows she doesn't have to. Horses who lead well, stand still when asked, behave well in stressful situations because they trust and respect their handler, and know how to give to pressure properly rarely have tying problems. A horse that bulls you around when being led, even when fresh, sees no point in listening to you. If she's stressed away from her herdmates, that anxiety could certainly be carrying over into her actions when being tied. She's worried about A, then B happens, then C, and then she just can't take it anymore and the slightest thing sets her off. Sometimes trying to avoid 'stressing' a horse gets you a horse who's a worrywart and anxious. Horses need to learn to deal with stress. Now, that doesn't mean throwing her into something she is not prepared to handle, but it does mean teaching her how to deal with stress and release her anxiety on her own. 


The blocker tie rings work if the rope is long enough. I had one that would keep running backward so I had a 60 foot rope on him. The first three times, he went all the way to the end of the rope and bumped his butt up against the round pen. The fourth time he went about 25 feet. Then 15. By the end of the first session, he would only go a few steps. You could see the gears turning in his brain as this 'dangerous, confirmed puller' realized that A.) he wasn't getting untied and B.) nothing was fighting back at him and C.) I wasn't yelling at him. Within a week I tied him everywhere with a 10-foot lead rope. He tied very well after a few months being tied ONLY with a tie ring, and once he got to the point where he'd stand quietly for hours, and realized he could still move his feet to look around without setting back, he was fine. Once the horse realizes that he can still move and isn't trapped, but that he doesn't get away, it seems they figure it out. I'll usually use a 30-foot yacht line rope to start unless the horse is really bad. It's smooth, isn't prone to knots, runs through the tie ring well, and most horses will stop running back before they get to the end of it. Then walk them back forward and start again. It's important to leave enough slack when the horse is tied to it that he can shift around a bit and turn his head. Some horses don't tie well strictly because they've been tied so short they feel trapped. I like leaving enough slack that they can stand comfortably with the head in a relaxed position and move a step or two to each side and turn their heads without that rope coming tight. So long enough they can move a bit, but short enough then won't get a leg over the rope (although with the blocker, that's not a real big deal if it does happen, either). Once they get more comfortable, you can tie shorter if need be.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

stubbornamber said:


> And because we already use a Blocker Tie Ring and we still get the same reaction, it was suggested to me by April that I try ground tying


I am interested to know how you have used the tie ring? I suspect, to have 'an aversion' to it & react the same, you may have possibly gone about it the wrong way?

Yes, for now at least, just holding her lead or teaching her to 'ground tie' is a good move. But you can't rely on ground tying, so for safety reasons, in some situations, she may need to be tied. So I'd still work towards that. Unless perhaps you never intend to take her off the property or such. I WOULD NOT tie her firm though, until she is *calm & reliable* about 'tying' using something like a tie ring or rope around a rail, with reasonably firm pressure(but you don't start there), in a variety of different places/situations.



> And it may well be that these issues developed since coming to our barn but I can't really see that being the cause.


Yeah, not at all meaning it IS only, or even some after she came to you, just that it could be. And yes, I did note that she came from a dealer, so who knows her past...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

stubbornamber said:


> We do use the Blocker Tie Ring at my stable and it, sadly, doesn't help. We have tried to keep her tied so it gives it but doesn't break but that only serves to make her panic more until it's dangerous for everyone involved. We don't want to risk someone get hit or Sophie falling and hurting herself while she panics ...
> I certainly haven't heard of the method with the long rope and the ring,


Pardon that I didn't read this before my last reply. Essentially, the 'method with the long rope and the ring' _IS_ the 'method' you use with a tie ring. You don't put the horse in a 'sink or swim' situation she's likely to panic. Equipment such as this doesn't work all by itself, it's a training tool.

She is, for whatever reason, frightened of being tied. So she panics & pulls back. This has a) likely confirmed some of her fear about this situation, by causing her pain, when she pulled hard enough to break something or flip and b) taught her she can get loose, escape from the situation. So, to keep putting her back in that situation is only likely to further confirm her attitude/reaction. And if she is put in a situation where she's tied stronger, can't easily break away, she will likely just 'try' harder, panic more.

Many people suggest to just tie her with something really strong(& wide around her neck & high, to reduce risk of injury), _TO_ something really strong - ie not your average fence post or rail!, and just leave her to fight it out until she gives up, learns it's useless. I don't personally like this sort of approach, because I think the *motivation & attitude* behind the behaviour is more important, relevant & effective to change. This method doesn't do anything to reduce the horse's fear, just 'break' them of the hope of trying to escape. Behaviouralists call this 'learned helplessness'.

With the 'long rope method', if you like to call it that, whether you use a Tie Ring, a regular ring, rope wrapped around a rail, abseilers 'figure 8'(discovered these work great & way cheaper than Tie Rings), whatever... you use *gradual desensitisation* to get her used to being in that situation and with feeling pressure from the lead to stay there, and you *avoid/minimise* causing more 'practice' being afraid & panicking.

So... I'd start leading her into the 'tie spot' & just standing there with her. If she's fine, go to 'phase 2'. If not, use 'approach & retreat' - bringing her in, taking her out, before she gets very nervous, until she realises it's nothing *& she's not pulling on you at all* Then asking to stand for gradually longer, as she can manage. Once she's *calmly* standing there, phase 2....

I'd use at least about 15' rope. The reason for a long rope(& your situation may call for longer, as SilverMaple described) is that she can go as far as she feels the need, without actually getting loose. But if she's in a smallish yard or... has a round pen to back into or something, that saves you having to have acres of rope! ;-) Not that, IME they tend to go _that_ far anyway. I'd run the rope through the ring(or whatever) _ONCE_ to start with. So there is practically no 'grab' on it at all. _You keep hold_ of the loose rope, 'wind it in' so it's as short as it would be if tied. But you're holding the slack. *In such a way it can run through your hands when she pulls back. This is where gloves come in handy, because you want to put *a little* pressure on it as she pulls back, but not enough to cause her more fear. And if she's able to back out of the situation without feeling trapped, she will not be so reactive about it & soon get over her fear of being 'tied' with that much pressure, so it gives you a base to gradually build on. Each time she rushes backwards, you just wait for her to stop & calm, then calmly reel her back in. Rinse & repeat until she is no longer worried about standing there. 

THEN you can *gradually* increase the 'grab' by taking another wrap around the rail or whatever. It will still give *easily* if she pulls back, but she will feel more pressure/discomfort when pulling on it. Do as above with that amount of pressure, before increasing a bit more. Etc. 

By the time you've got to using firm enough to be difficult for her(but still yielding, for safety - although it may be strong enough not to yield to a puny human) pressure, she should be fine with it. At that point, I would leave it at that, for a while at least, just 'tie' her like that. She's unlikely to panic by then, but if she does, she's still not tied firm, to feel really trapped & escalate panic or risk of injury. I do tend to still tie mine in that manner(or far lighter), when it's safe to do so - because you never know. But I'd avoid tying her firm until she's reliable & had _lots_ of practice *in different situations* with that 'phase'.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

What's interesting is that you say this horse is fine in cross ties, but not straight tied, with any kind of barrier in front of her. 

A horse that panics being tied will usually be equally as panic stricken in cross ties, if not more so.


This is either an issue of her not knowing how to give to pressure, or her being claustrophobic if not able to see open space in front of her. Both could be a real issue if and when you even need to trailer her somewhere.


Is it possible that when you went to buy the horse, to try her out, she was drugged? and that's why she cross tied without issue?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> What's interesting is that you say this horse is fine in cross ties, but not straight tied, with any kind of barrier in front of her.
> 
> A horse that panics being tied will usually be equally as panic stricken in cross ties, if not more so.
> 
> ...


That’s very true
It’s normally the case that a horse that ties to a single point won’t cross tie because the head’s more restricted.
I would think that she must have travelled to the current yard so I wonder how that went?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I quickly read through all the comments...
May have missed...

The horse panics and pulls back when facing a wall and tied...
_Why can't you face her outward, *butt to the wall* and then tie or cross-tie her?_

We used to have a horse exactly like this where I used to work...
Faced him so he could see down the aisle butt to the wall, one time of pulling back and hitting that wall cured him of that habit in the barn.
We did not tie him any other spot of a 100' long aisle either...knowing his issue we just used what made him quiet to stand...no more issue.
Our wash stalls also had "walls/barriers" and he was turned facing out when bathed...no issue.
When we were at shows none of our horses {English H/J} were ever tied to the van...all were either hand held or stalled.
When hand held, the handler is a quieting influence and also moves with the horse reducing the pull-back mechanism.

_Why can't you face her outward, *butt to the wall* ?_
If she were to "panic" going backward as is her norm, she would run square into the wall and hitting that is then going to shoot her forward.
Not many rear up when going forward, they either stop and think or if truly freaking...fight and break loose.. 
Most though just stop at forward pressure exerted to their nose like bring bridled and ridden teaches them.

Now going to read more closely each previous contribution...
:runninghorse2:...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

It sounds like there is more than one issue going on with her. Being able to see must be important to her, so standing with a wall in front of her can be very stressful. This is actually a common problem. 

The easiest way to have a horse learn to give to the pressure when tied is to use something with give in it. We used to use a innertube from a tire and tie it in the middle so the horse doesn't have anything solid to brace against, and the pressure naturally eases as they move forward. 

Now many companies make bungie cord leads/ties so those are easier to use. 

If I were retraining her, I would start someplace she feels safe, like her stall, and work on training her to stand tied there (with the bungie rope). When she starts backing up, encourage her to move forward to ease the pressure. 

The other thing I would try, along with the bungie lead, is hanging up a hay bag where she is tied, so it becomes a more pleasant experience. Also lots of attention and treats for good behavior. 

IMO most horses want to be good, but they can sometimes be confused as to what we are asking of them. Breaking things down into steps, by practicing "tying" at several different locations, can really help them to understand what one expects. 

Thus once she is comfortable being tied in the stall and understands how the bungie works, then can go around the different areas on the property and just spend a few days "practicing tying". Don't ride or tack up or anything beside tying up, grooming, and attempting to walk short distances away, and then return again. Focus on making tying up a pleasant, relaxing time that you two share together.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

horselovinguy said:


> The horse panics and pulls back when facing a wall and tied...
> _Why can't you face her outward, *butt to the wall* and then tie or cross-tie her?
> :runninghorse2:..._


_

I think the OP said that on the yard she’s keeping the horse on they don’t have cross ties and that would be the only way to tie a horse where it’s head isn’t at the wall.
I think I noticed that the OP is based in the UK where cross ties aren’t the ‘norm’ and most horses are either tied to a ring attached to a wall in their stable or outside to a ring attached to a wall, usually on the exterior of their stable.
The horse must have come from someone who had an American type barn with an aisle where cross ties are more commonly used but not so typical of a UK yard.
I’d never seen cross ties before I came here._


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I think the OP said that on the yard she’s keeping the horse on they don’t have cross ties and that would be the only way to tie a horse where it’s head isn’t at the wall.
> I think I noticed that the OP is based in the UK where cross ties aren’t the ‘norm’ and most horses are either tied to a ring attached to a wall in their stable or outside to a ring attached to a wall, usually on the exterior of their stable..


The basic idea still works...
Position the horse facing out...
If the tie is in a stall, face the horse toward the door, _face out_ of a corner...
The butt is what is closest to the wall so when pulling back the horse spanks itself and learns real quick to go forward...
The idea is handler is out of the line of trouble and the horse disciplines itself...
If you have a wall you somehow have a corner...use it to your advantage.

Really? 
No cross-ties in UK?
Not even "in the stall" a setup of ties?
Wow..:shock:
:runninghorse2:...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

AnitaAnne said:


> It sounds like there is more than one issue going on with her. Being able to see must be important to her, so standing with a wall in front of her can be very stressful. This is actually a common problem.
> 
> *The easiest way to have a horse learn to give to the pressure when tied is to use something with give in it. We used to use a innertube from a tire and tie it in the middle so the horse doesn't have anything solid to brace against, and the pressure naturally eases as they move forward. *
> 
> ...





I am not disagreeing with you , @AnitaAnne, but I do not understand why this works. I would think it would literally be just the opposite in terms of teaching a hrose to give to pressure.


I mean, a material like a bungie cord, or inner tube type thing, that has 'give' in it, also has 'take' in it. So, when the horse pulls back, it gives , some, but as soon as the horse comes off of that, and moves forward a bit, the material then 'takes' up the slack by its rebound property. So, it would seem that the signal of "freedom is in giving to the rope" would be less instant, and less noticeable than a plain rope (which as soon as the hrose steps forward, does NOT take up any of the slack created by even the minutest forward 'give' of the horse).


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

horselovinguy said:


> so when pulling back the horse spanks itself and learns real quick to go forward...
> The idea is handler is out of the line of trouble and the horse disciplines itself...


I think this could be effective IF the horse isn't really reacting in fear - as I & SilverMaple mentioned with 'the long rope method'. If the horse were actually afraid though, panicking, just putting the horse in that scary situation & 'disciplining' (punishing) in whatever way may very well just make its fear worse. And what about when you want to take the horse in a trailer or somewhere without a corner or such to face the horse out of? I'd personally rather take the time to teach them to stand confidently tied anywhere.



> Really?
> No cross-ties in UK?


Even working at big show outfits I don't recall ever seeing x-ties here. Only at the racetrack 'tie stalls' when I used to ride track work have I seen them.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

The horse I ride most of the time does NOT tie well. She will break snaps and cross ties just because she can. She's old, it's a hard-wired habit by now, and no one has been able to fix it. However...

One thing very few people in the horse world seem to be taught is the fact that it's possible to almost never have to actually tie a horse. Maybe it sounds crazy, but... it's true!

It's generally a bad idea to tie a horse solid for the farrier or the vet anyhow, especially one that's anxious. Better to be there and hold the lead.

Tacking up? Pull the end of the lead through the top ring of one of the cross ties, but don't knot it.

Tying at a post? Loop the rope around the post once, then twist the end of the lead rope a few times back over itself for a bit of friction, but so that it will still slide loose if necessary.

Detangling a mane or tail? Let them graze while you're at it and toss the lead rope over their back where you can reach for it quickly if they try to move off.

Are there circumstances where you MUST tie a horse solid? Yeah, but they're nowhere near as common as you might think.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I am not disagreeing with you , @AnitaAnne, but I do not understand why this works. I would think it would literally be just the opposite in terms of teaching a hrose to give to pressure.
> 
> 
> I mean, a material like a bungie cord, or inner tube type thing, that has 'give' in it, also has 'take' in it. So, when the horse pulls back, it gives , some, but as soon as the horse comes off of that, and moves forward a bit, the material then 'takes' up the slack by its rebound property. So, it would seem that the signal of "freedom is in giving to the rope" would be less instant, and less noticeable than a plain rope (which as soon as the hrose steps forward, does NOT take up any of the slack created by even the minutest forward 'give' of the horse).


This is a good question. The way a bungie works is a mater of physics or one could say strength of materials. 

First lets consider a horse that is tied with a regular lead rope. There is no give in it, and when a horse sets back on it and reaches the end of the rope, a small jerk of the head when the rope is fully extended will break the hardware on any halter. Horses are strong and have a lot of power. 

This then, is why rope halters without any hardware can become so dangerous. If a horse is tied with an unbreakable halter, the horse could easily become choked if the rope tightens too much. The halter would need to be cut off the horse. 

The other thing that can happen is the horse can suffer damage to the neck, including breaks, if the horse goes into full blown panic mode and continues to fight. 

A bungie cord stretches, and a horse can't set back on one because it will not become fixed like a regular rope. The farther a bungie cord is stretched, the more resistance one feels, and the pull to return is great. 


Thus as the horse pulls back, the bungie gives but does not put a fixed pressure on the poll. The horse doesn't reach that point of stopping, but the pressure continues to increase. If the handler encourages the horse to step forward, the pressure lessens. The horse is instantly rewarded for walking forward by a lessoning or complete release of pressure. 


One must not tie the bungie lead so tight that there is a constant pressure. The horse should have no pressure on the poll when standing in the correct place. 


It also helps to tie them up higher than the horse's head, as it is harder for them to pull back. The High-tie system for trailers works this way. 


I always use bungies to tie in the trailer, so the horses can shift if needed.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> I am not disagreeing with you , @AnitaAnne, but I do not understand why this works. I would think it would literally be just the opposite in terms of teaching a hrose to give to pressure.


Yes, I agree, to some extent, I think your way of seeing it is right Tiny. I think _any_ form of punishment, if the horse is truly reacting in fear, is likely to make matters worse. Especially something like a bungee that doesn't let up the instant the horse does, but keeps 'pulling'. But I have seen this sort of thing - actually horses tied to inner car tyre tubes - used very successfully, when horses had learned to *calmly* pull back & get loose.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> Yes, I agree, to some extent, I think your way of seeing it is right Tiny. I think _any_ form of punishment, if the horse is truly reacting in fear, is likely to make matters worse. Especially something like a bungee that doesn't let up the instant the horse does, but keeps 'pulling'. *But I have seen this sort of thing - actually horses tied to inner car tyre tubes - used very successfully, when horses had learned to *calmly* pull back & get loose*.


I find it hard to understand your reasoning if as you state you have seen this practice used very successfully. 

Having a bungie cord stretch is in no way a punishment, it is the opposite of punishment. The horse is not stopped in his backwards movement due to the elasticity. 

I had a mare, TB/Appy cross that could snap a triple thick halter before you could take three steps towards her! Very dangerous when metal buckles come flying at a person...the minute she was free, she relaxed.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^I don't believe it's a good move to punish/discipline/put further pressure on(whatever you want to call it or specifically use) a fear reaction. I don't think it's fair or generally effective. And the horse is effectively already being 'punished' by being in that situation. The exception would be in 'emergency' type situations, when the horse's attitude takes low second place to doing whatever is necessary for safety - of horse or handler. So the diff in successful use, IME has been when a horse isn't actually or significantly afraid of the situation - he's not pulling out of fear of being trapped.

And perhaps it was because I was thinking of 'punishment' in behavioural terms, not whacking the horse or whatever, but just anything that is an undesirable stimuli to a horse. Eg. in this case, putting significant pressure on the lead. Esp when, due to elasticity, that pressure will not cease the moment the horse stops pulling back - they have to not only stop pulling but come forward before they 'release' the pressure.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> ^I don't believe it's a good move to punish/discipline/put further pressure on(whatever you want to call it or specifically use) a fear reaction. I don't think it's fair or generally effective. And the horse is effectively already being 'punished' by being in that situation. The exception would be in 'emergency' type situations, when the horse's attitude takes low second place to doing whatever is necessary for safety - of horse or handler. So the diff in successful use, IME has been when a horse isn't actually or significantly afraid of the situation - he's not pulling out of fear of being trapped.
> 
> And perhaps it was because I was thinking of 'punishment' in behavioural terms, not whacking the horse or whatever, but just anything that is an undesirable stimuli to a horse. Eg. in this case, putting significant pressure on the lead. Esp when, due to elasticity, that pressure will not cease the moment the horse stops pulling back - they have to not only stop pulling but come forward before they 'release' the pressure.


Just a case of terminology then. I consider it much less restrictive than hitting the end of a fixed object. Nor do I consider it a punishment, no more than learning to be tied could be a punishment. Its just a different type of lead rope...

If you consider training that teaches the horse to release from pressure a punishment, then nearly everything we do with a horse would be punishment. 

Horses used to be tied to a pole in the ground, outside, with the tire inner tube attached. They were left to figure it out for themselves, and most never had a problem after that being tied. It was the first step of saddle training. I prefer standing right next to the horse and teaching him what to do, for the horse's safety. 


The horse quickly learns to step forward, so has a lot of control over the situation. Anytime we turn the control over to the horse, the horse has the opportunity to make their own decisions, which is a confidence booster. 


IMO "tying" the horse to one of those rings that allow the rope to just slip though is just teaching the horse how to break free. Not something I want to teach my horse! 

Horses do not like pressure on their poll, and naturally will fight to resist it, but giving to the pressure is something that they need to learn how to do.

I've been riding/working with horses for almost 50 years now, and have seen a lot of training methods come and go. Some methods I am still using from back when I was first learning to drive and ride from a very experienced older man. Back then we loaded the horses in the back of a truck to take them to the fair. I and my friend rode back there, standing up, with them :smile:


As I frequently say, everyone has their own methods that work for them, and the OP will need to learn her way around all the advice to discover what works for her and her horse. 

If I didn't think this method would help her, I wouldn't have mentioned it. But calling tying up a horse with a different type of lead a "punishment" may lead her to not try something that might help her.


Some old-timey methods are still relevant today...


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## stubbornamber (Jun 13, 2019)

@tinyliny Hello!

It is very odd because, once she is loaded onto a trailer and is settled, she is completely fine. She does tend to like a bit of lax in the lead rope so that she is able to move her head and look behind her, but we do the exact same thing when she's in front of a wall and she simply freaks out.

We have considered that she may have either been drugged or very starved when we first got her - which resulted in such a dramatic character change when we got her. I say this because, when we first saw her, she was rather underweight and wasn't phased by anything. Whether it was water being sprayed onto her or her being cross tied. However, we bring her to our stables and after a week or two of proper, regular feeding and plenty of grass, she suddenly switched and became a lot more energetic. (We have made sure her food is as low sugar as possible so we feel as though it is simply a case of that she wasn't fed properly when we got her.)

We are trying her on a new supplement which is meant to help a nervy or anxious horse (because she paces at the fence line when she has her herd with her.) So i am hoping this make ease back the fear she feels when she thinks that she is completely trapped. It is odd that she is fine when someone holds her facing the wall, but hates being tied to the metal ring in the wall.


Thank you x


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## stubbornamber (Jun 13, 2019)

Hello @SteadyOn

I do understand where you're coming from and, because my mum and I work as team on most things, we rarely find the need to actually tie Sophie (the horse) up. However, my main concern is what will happen if we do need to somehow tie her up but are unable to.

For example, if my mum wants to go to a show but I'm injured so she has to go by herself...because Sophie despises being tied up, my mother would struggle to tack up, get ready and do everything that needs to be done for a show. The same could be said for me if I wanted to go somewhere by myself.

I suppose I would simply like to have the knowledge that I am able to tie sophie up if need be, and that I don't always need to rely on someone holding onto her whenever we go out, have the farrier, have to bathe her ect.

Thank you x


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

horselovinguy said:


> The basic idea still works...
> Position the horse facing out...
> If the tie is in a stall, face the horse toward the door, _face out_ of a corner...
> The butt is what is closest to the wall so when pulling back the horse spanks itself and learns real quick to go forward...
> ...


Some people have cross ties, you might see them in yards that have got American style barns, though we had an American style barn at one place where we lived and still tied the horses to a ring on the outside wall of their stables.
The OP could put a tie ring close to the door so the horse could see out. It would have to be trained to stand away from the door and not right up to it and not crowd the door every time the carrier went in and out to his mobile forge. 
Not all farriers like to shoe in a stable as the light isn’t very good in some of them

I do think that horses who’ve learnt to break away are better off tied in a confined space where they can’t go far and their efforts just get them taken very quickly, straight back to where they were. 
If this horse is stabled regularly then she really should be well used to looking at a wall. I would think that either something bad (in her opinion) has been done to her when she was tied or she was drugged on the dealers yard and wouldn’t cross tie either now.
I think I’d be trying to contact her previous owner (before the dealer) and talk to them about her. That should be easily done as previous owners will be recorded on her passport.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

As I said, I am not arguing that it WORKS, because you are not the only one who says it does. And your below description of the gradual application of flexible pressure onto the head as the horse begins to pull back may be the secret. Most likely it is, not the release offered by the stretchy material. 



Oh, and the use of a handler, to encourage the horse to step forward off the pressure, is the very thing I would use to help a horse that has set back hard against a rope halter or strong nylon/leather one.







AnitaAnne said:


> This is a good question. The way a bungie works is a mater of physics or one could say strength of materials.
> 
> First lets consider a horse that is tied with a regular lead rope. There is no give in it, and when a horse sets back on it and reaches the end of the rope, a small jerk of the head when the rope is fully extended will break the hardware on any halter. Horses are strong and have a lot of power.
> 
> ...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Understanding the way materials work and operate under stress is usually something only engineers concern themselves with. 

When it comes to our precious animals though, especially strong ones like our horses, most people do want to understand the How and Why things work. 

So consider a person jumping off a bridge for the thrill of it. This is done typically with a bungie system (bungie jumping) as using a regular rope would mean severe injuries or death when the person jumping hit the end of the rope and there was a sudden stop. The force (stress) on the body would be huge. 

Please don't ask me for those figures because I certainly do not have those calculations memorized, as there are so many variables. (drop, length of rope, weight of person, etc.)

I would guess that 99.99% of people bungie jumping, would want a gentle bounce when they jump, and not a sudden stop as caused by a firm rope or even worse, the lack of any rope. 

This theory then, also applies to horses. A firm rope is unforgiving, unless the hardware breaks. I personally have seen horses fall down after a rope and/or halter breaks. Just not something I want to risk with my horses. 

Safety is the first rule for me, and a gentle "bounce" from a bungie rope is safer for me and my horse. The bonus being that the horse learns to step forward with gentle pressure. Win/win situation...

There are many, many horses safely using the Hi-tie trailer system, which was designed with the aid of engineers and experienced horse people. It is based on two main principles; 1) Tie the horse above the level of the head to reduce the horses' ability to brace, and 2) use a bungie cord to avoid pressure and allow the horse to move around. 

Of course I didn't design the system, but I can understand how it operates. 

@tinyliny thank you for asking questions and listening. I know I am always learning, and I appreciate others desire to learn. I am glad I can impart some knowledge to those who wish for it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well put. I can see that in the case of a horse that is apt to panic at the first feeling of being held tight, it is the first part of the equation, the application of the pressure, that is really the key to it's flipping out, so having that 'slow" grab is what makes the difference. I was too focused on the second part of the equation; the release of pressure. In training, usually we are so focused on the release of the pressure, and making sure it is fully felt, and well timed.


I remember taking lessons, years back, on ground manners and my trainer reminding me to NOT take up any slack the horse created by coming forward off of a tug on the line , in the case of leading a horse who lags behind, pulling on the leadline. She said that folks often do this; they bump or pull the horse to step faster (to come off that pressure), and as soon as they do, they take up all the slack, so the horse has lost his 'reward'. Horse soon learns there is no point in coming off the line, since the slack he creates will only by pulled forward again.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hey AA, not sure if I'm correct, but I think this could be the first time we've had a difference of opinion that I recall! :wow: 



> But calling tying up a horse with a different type of lead a "punishment" may lead her to not try something that might help her.


Yeah, I think it is much a case of terminology, calling it 'punishment' but I do think that understanding the behavioural concept behind stuff is helpful myself. To understand how 'a different type of lead' can help or not. And to understand 'punishment' in a behavioural sense is that it is any _undesirable_ stimuli applied to a behaviour to make it _less likely to happen in future._ So yeah, strictly, that does include _any_ pressure is punishment. And so, it's a matter only of degree - as I agree, that's something that IMO comes into just about everything dealing with horses, unless perhaps you're a 'purist' clicker trainer or such. 

Why can I agree with you that a bungee can be a good, effective tool, but also believe it's too 'punishing' for some? A horse that's a bit nervous but not reactive, or a horse that is not nervous - he's just learned to break loose calmly for eg, could be just put in that situation, with a bungee or such and it's great, _because it's not too much for them._ But I just strongly feel, _if it IS more than they can cope with_, that they panic & react, I want to do all that I can to _avoid putting them in that situation,_ until they're up to it - which depending on prior experiences, may be... slow. And for horses who are already 'hair trigger', also the lack of immediate release when they do quit pulling can also cause further confusion/panic.

I just really feel minimising punishment is important, as especially with a horse who is already ready to panic - or doing so - that only adds one more 'bad' association to the situation. So, degrees... they need to learn to come off pressure of course, but while one horse may be fine with a bungee(which yes, IMO too, may be better than a hard tie & is less... confronting 'pressure'). But to another that may be far too much pressure, they're still too 'trapped'. So you might start with the long rope thru a ring, whatever 'degree' they _can_ cope with, while avoiding causing any real fear/reactivity. 

I think horses remember stuff on a far more... primal level. Emotions are strongly attached. So when a horse has terrifying experiences, that's what 'hits' them when confronted with the same experience. The more they get to 'practice' this association, the stronger it becomes. Whereas keeping things low stress, progressing only as the horse is ready for, they're 'practicing' being calm & not afraid & confirming that everything is actually alright. And the more practice of that, will overtake the previous fear experiences. Eventually... depending how well ingrained they are.



> IMO "tying" the horse to one of those rings that allow the rope to just slip though is just teaching the horse how to break free. Not something I want to teach my horse!


If you were just to put the rope through the tie ring(or round a rail, tree branch, abseilers figure 8, whatever) and leave them to their own devices, yes, that is likely to be what they will learn. But if it is used correctly as a *training tool*, the horse learns nothing of the sort, because they do not break free. You remain on the end of the rope, to reel them back in. As they're able to move their feet *as much as they see fit, without too much(whatever that is, for that horse at that stage) pressure/punishment*, they learn it's all OK & there's no reason to panic, but they also cannot just escape - that doesn't work.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

It doesn't teach them to break free. It teaches them they CAN'T break free, and they learn that without panic and without slamming back on a rope with no give and injuring themselves. They can move all they want and they're still 'tied.'

It's training tool. You don't tie them to it and leave. You stay nearby and help them through it. They move, you reel them back in when they stop backing up. You teach them to move left and right without pulling. You never, ever leave a horse tied with one and leave. You are part of the training process. Done right, it DOES work, and it works well.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

We will have to agree to disagree. I used to be in engineering, and strength of materials, breaking strength of hardware, and nearly 50 years of observing/interacting with rank horses all factor into my training methods. I'm not interested in forcing my methods on anyone. @tinyliny asked about "why" bungies work, and I answered. If you don't ever want to use one, whatever works for you is what you need to do. For me, safety comes first. 

Was at one stable for a while, and they insisted on using hay strings to go between the snap and the cross tie. Absolutely annoying to deal with constant broken hay strings and the horses only stood there as long as you also stood there. 


Back to the OP original problem, my RMHA gelding is very similar. I cannot tie him for very long to the outside of the trailer, and he has to have room to move around, and a full hay bag. Otherwise, he will dig a hole in the ground! 


Tie him to a tree and he'll stand quietly, even without hay. The horse has to SEE everything :smile:


This then is the main reason I was completely turned off by the NATRC rides. They want to decide how I should contain my own horse, namely tie the horse to a trailer all night so all the horses are "treated the same". Hogwash. Horses aren't the same, why should we treat them the same? 


Anyway, I think we have beat this subject to death, and as usual, the subject matter has totally gone off on a tangent. 


One tiny piece of advice; don't expect anyone at the other end to hold you up with a tie-blocker if you decide to jump off a bridge....I don't plan on jumping, but if I did I would want a really strong bungie securely bolted at triple the break strength keeping me from splatting :falloff:

G'night to all y'all :ZZZ:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AnitaAnne said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. ...I'm not interested in forcing my methods on anyone.


Hear hear! :CLAP: Many roads lead to Rome & all... That's what's so great about a world wide forum - we can all consider the vast array of different opinions & knowledge & experience... in order to choose what we think best for us.



> Anyway, I think we have beat this subject to death, and as usual, the subject matter has totally gone off on a tangent.


Yeah I think we've about covered it, but I thought we'd managed NOT to go off on a tangent... for a change! ;-)



> One tiny piece of advice; don't expect anyone at the other end to hold you up with a tie-blocker if you decide to jump off a bridge....I don't plan on jumping, but if I did I would want a really strong bungie securely bolted at triple the break strength keeping me from splatting :falloff:


:ROFL: :ROFL:


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

Interesting thoughts and ideas concerning this matter. I'll put my two cents worth. The only time I tie my horses so then can't escape is when we are at a place where other people also have their horses tied. Doesn't happen often. At home, my horses are never tied. I merely loop the lead rope over whatever I'm tying them to. They know that if they pull back, they can break free. Yet, it has been a long time since one of them did that. And on those occasion when something like a good size limb suddenly crashing to the ground has scared them, they break free, run 30 feet and stop. What I have observed is that when a horse is scared by whatever and it tries to break free and can't, that's when things turn dangerous. Mine seem to have learned that if something really threatening comes their way, they can break free. So why worry?


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