# Barn sour, buddy sour, argumentative horse



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Fighting the same fight. Subbing to see what's advised.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Staying safe, of course is number one,but unfortunately, all ground work and respect does not just transfer to riding, or training horses would be much simpler!
When i was younger, I rode green horses out that had way less training then in later years, simply because when I was younger,my confidence was much greater, as it was not under mined by what could happen, should my less then young body hit the ground.
Thus, I spent a lot more time getting ahrose truly 'broke' in his comfort zone first, putting 'buttons and ingrained response, building trust, so that I could then ride them out successfully, alone. If you know you can't successfully ride a horse past something, be it beyond a certain point, don't ride there until you can. 
Horses are creatures of habit, and we all know the maxium that we train a horse each and every time we ride or handle him, either for the good or the negative
Thus, each time that horse is able to blatantly act up, the minute it is asked to go out of his comfort zone, guess what he learns, plus he will never see you as a leader he can trust, thus always feeling he must look out for himself
When I first ride a horse out, that horse goes where asked No, it is not normal for a horse to resist because he is a certain age-he might test, but given the right 'answer', that test is very mild,short lived, and does not become a repeat default


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Smilie said:


> Staying safe, of course is number one,but unfortunately, all ground work and respect does not just transfer to riding, or training horses would be much simpler!
> When i was younger, I rode green horses out that had way less training then in later years, simply because when I was younger,my confidence was much greater, as it was not under mined by what could happen, should my less then young body hit the ground.
> Thus, I spent a lot more time getting ahrose truly 'broke' in his comfort zone first, putting 'buttons and ingrained response, building trust, so that I could then ride them out successfully, alone. If you know you can't successfully ride a horse past something, be it beyond a certain point, don't ride there until you can.
> Horses are creatures of habit, and we all know the maxium that we train a horse each and every time we ride or handle him, either for the good or the negative
> ...


Thank you, Smilie. You hit on exactly what I'm worried is going to happen - because it has happened to me before. Ona has been pushed out of her comfort zone, acted out by rearing and got away with it, and we had to go to a trainer before I could make her stop.

You say not to try to ride a horse beyond a certain point until I'm certain I can do it, and that makes 100% sense. It's the getting from not being able to do it, to being able to, that I'm having trouble with.

She's very reactive and I want to figure out how to safely enlarge her comfort zone - to just take her to the edge of it and get her comfortable and thinking there and gradually expand it over time, as she builds trust in me as a leader. Is that how it works?

For example, today all we did was the very first CA exercise - keeping her out of my personal space with two eyes on me. We did it in the center of her comfort zone, no problem. Then I walked her forward 25 feet and did it again, rewarding her with treats when she stood still with her head down and her eyes on me. Moved another 25 feet, did it again, then 25 feet more etc. When we reached the edge of her comfort zone her head and ears went up and she started to act like she was going to walk over me so I cued her to back up. Instead of backing up, she decided to gallop circles around me. I had her in her knotted rope halter attached to a lunge line. She didn't get away from me and I just let her run for a while then said "whoa" and asked her to come in. Instead of coming in, she galloped around me the opposite direction. I just let her go and then when I said "whoa" and asked her to come in, she came in. I asked her to back up, and she did, and when she stood out calmly and quietly of my personal space with her head down and both eyes on me I gave her a treat and brought her back to PJ.

She didn't rear on me so I guess we're past that - and I don't know if I should have got after her for galloping around me but I don't know how I could have got after her for it anyway. I guess I could have brought a lunge whip and made her keep going until she was tired.

I'm thinking of repeating the exercise this evening and that's another thing I'm not sure of - how often to work with her.

I hope she's not going to learn that if she starts galloping circles around me, then the next time she behaves herself I'll bring her back. How many steps ahead can horses think?


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I'm wondering if, next time, maybe it would be better if we stop just before we get to the point where she started galloping around me today - just hang out there doing ground work. Once I get my safety vest, maybe I'll just stay in her comfort zone while I'm on her. 

Maybe the reason she is reactive is because I push it too far?


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

If this were me, this is how I'd approach it.

Have a leading set-up that gives you better pressure than just a flat nylon or leather halter. I like a thin rope halter. Though for horses who are likely to really pull and test, a chain might work better. Have a fairly long lead rope. Have a dressage whip or Parelli stick -- something you can direct with to do a mini lunge session on a tiny circle. Also have some treats, because bribery can help make this experience a lot more pleasant for both of you.

With this set up, you take her for a walk in the direction you'd like to ride her for your lessons. There are several behaviours she's likely to exhibit:

-Turns her head away from you and crowds her shoulder into you.
Response: sharp elbow to her shoulder and needle into her with it until she moves away. Repeat every time this happens, even though it'll get tedious if this is something that's a habit. Do anyhow and don't be nice about it.

-Whinnies to her friends while tuning you out. (This often goes along with the shoulder-crowding behaviour!)
Response: Put her to work! Longe her at a brisk walk on a tight circle around you until you have her attention again. You will probably both get a bit dizzy. :lol: This will a) make her work by having to cross her legs behind and b) be tedious enough that walking on forward will seem like a more pleasant alternative. Once she's gotten the point, walk her forward until the next interruption. Repeat as needed.

-Balks or tries to pull towards home
Response: tiny lunge circle, as above. You can also vary this up with changes of direction, stopping, adding bits of trot, etc. Whatever it takes to keep her mind on you. Again, resume walking in the desired direction when she's put some work in and seems receptive to that alternative.

When she IS walking along with you nicely, give her an occasional treat to make heading away from home into a thing she gets rewarded for WHEN she is cooperating.

Important note: you need to be able to lead her on a nice loose lead where she doesn't always need to be held at the chin. If you keep constant pressure on her face, she'll be anxious the whole time and won't feel like she has any way to do the "good" thing by walking willingly to release pressure.

Do this incrementally. Don't try to go the whole distance in one session or you'll just have a fight on your hands and won't progress. When you've pushed her comfort zone a bit and gotten her cooperating and at whatever place you'd like to end on for the day, give her some treats and pats and praise, and take her home. On your walk back, do NOT let her set the pace. Stop her, back her up, move her feet now and then. If she gets fast or starts to barge ahead, time to stop and lunge her on the spot again until she's paying attention. No treats on the walk back -- let her associate the treats with being away from home, not heading towards it.

The "working in tiny annoying circles" method works very well under saddle, too, and is my go-to method for horses that are balking or barn sour. They can't bolt, buck, or rear when you have one rein pulled back towards your hip and their hindquarters disengaged, and it's definitely no fun for them.

I put this program (the groundwork portion -- never made it to the ridden portion before circumstances changed) in place with a horse earlier this year who had intense separation anxiety and very bad leading manners, and the difference was INCREDIBLE. She can now be led anywhere on a loose lead, with no whinnying or anxiety, and is nice and relaxed and a lot braver with potentially spooky things along the way. I suspect it would have made a big difference under saddle, too.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you, SteadyOn. Your post reassures me that what I've been doing with her up until now makes sense. She has learned some tricks regarding the little circles, though. She has decided she wants me to make her do circles because 1) when she's running in circles she's not going forward and she can even take a few steps backward when she's facing the right direction 2) she can do her best to end the circle facing the direction she wants to go. She has become a bit of a circle addict...and I've become dizzy LOL


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree on teaching that leading with respect, having the horse both lead on a loose shank , while staying out of your space, never trying to rush ahead, nor lag behind
I am not much for endless circling, and it drove me nuts when someone did that on a trail ride!
I;m more on getting body control, so you can ride a horse past stuff. No, this does not mean you don't also work on trust, and I always give a horse a chance to move forward, look at something, keep forward and not balk or try to turn around
However, if a horse acts very concerned about something ahead you know is just a sign, or whatever,tries to get head up, neck stiff, attempting to loose forward, I ask for that face and poll, taking contact, while using strong legslto continue to drive that horse foreward, and might also counter flex him, so nose is slightly tipped away from the object of concern, ribs and shoulders flexed in the object's direction
I am not going to play a circling game, either riding,nor in front of a trailer to load a horse.
That is not to say that circling,taking head away, disengaging hips does not have a place, perhaps to gain control of a horse that attempted to bolt, but it is also not my default, each time a horse tries to balk, as there are places you simply can't circle, or loose forward. 
Control with on coming traffic, narrow trail, are just two examples

Also never allow a horse to call when you are working with him or riding him. If he is calling, that is also where his leader is-back in that pasture, and not beside him or on his back.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

newtrailriders said:


> My current goal is to safely be able to get on her and ride her the half mile to lessons instead of trailering her there.
> 
> Ona doesn't give me any trouble at all in the work area but when I bring her out into the yard, even right near the gate, she starts acting up. So I'm thinking I want to just do ground work near the gate and not let her back in until she calms down and just keep doing that every day, further and further from the gate, until she gets over being sour.
> 
> If I never stop working her and don't bring her back to her comfort zone until she's quietly behaving and listening, that should do it, right?


newtrailriders, I like a lot of what you're doing, but I think you might progress faster if you make one reversal. I would try working your horse in the area she is comfortable and then taking her outside and just letting her graze. Then go back in and work and come back out and graze. The whole idea is staying home is work and leaving is fun.

Also, to get results from Clinton Anderson's method, be very particular. In the beginning you won't be very good at communicating what you want from your horse and your horse might not be very good at guessing what you want. But you want to shape that behavior so that in every session you are getting closer to the ideal.

After using everything from a dowel to a pvc pipe to a dressage whip, I finally bought a handy stick, but in the beginning use whatever you have. The first time I was sure my big guy knew what I wanted and didn't think he needed to do it I whacked him. He was so surprised he jerked the lead rope out of my hand and ran 200 yards away and stared at me with big eyes. At the end of that lesson he had a magical, transformative reduction in spooking. As Clinton says, be as gentle as possible and as firm as necessary and always reward the slightest try.

Good luck, be safe, and please keep us up to date.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Joel Reiter said:


> newtrailriders, I like a lot of what you're doing, but I think you might progress faster if you make one reversal. I would try working your horse in the area she is comfortable and then taking her outside and just letting her graze. Then go back in and work and come back out and graze. The whole idea is staying home is work and leaving is fun.
> 
> Also, to get results from Clinton Anderson's method, be very particular. In the beginning you won't be very good at communicating what you want from your horse and your horse might not be very good at guessing what you want. But you want to shape that behavior so that in every session you are getting closer to the ideal.
> 
> ...


Well that certainly sounds easier and she'd give me a lot less objection to it. I'm all for easy - and my instincts tell me that, the less often she acts up, the less often she will act up in the future. Everything she does 3 times or more becomes a habit and I certainly do not want her to get in the habit of running around like an insane horse every time I work her out of her comfort zone.

I also feel like I must show her that she has to pay attention to me and do what I say whether she's in her comfort zone or not. I'm not asking much of her right now - just to stay out of my space and pay attention to me. This horse has had my number. A few months ago my husband and I were able to ride her and her buddy out from home and then she started challenging me. She got in the habit of rearing and it took some work with a trainer to get her over that. 

I want to establish leadership in the safest, easiest, most peaceful way possible. I don't want to have to argue with her over every little thing. I'm afraid I wouldn't win the arguments.

It feels like there's a fine line that has to be tread - to show her that being outside her comfort zone isn't as scary as she thinks it is and she still has to listen to me there.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I did a web search for "expand horse comfort zone" and found this article. I still need to find parts 1 and 3, but part 2 suggests I've been trying to push her a little too far, too fast. That, plus what Joel Reiter said, is kind of a relief to me because I was a little uncomfortable pushing her.

https://www.equinebehaviorist.ca/single-post/2017/04/15/Expanding-you-Horses-Comfort-Zone-Part-Two


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Which book are you using? _Clinton Anderson's Downunder Horsemanship; Establishing Respect and Control for English and Western Riders_ is the main one. As you work through the lessons it will help to go to his web site or YouTube to make sure you understand what it's supposed to look like.

You definitely want to push her, and if you do the lessons right you will be pushing her. One of the main points of Clinton's method is to take your number back from a horse that has your number. So you have plenty of opportunity for excitement without contaminating it with taking her outside the work area. I would suggest you advance beyond at least the backing and disengaging the hindquarters lessons before you try to take her outside her comfortable area again.

Try to work on consecutive days if possible so each day can build on the last, and aim for 30-45 minutes of well planned training each day. You will advance quicker if you video record your sessions and then compare what you actually did with what you're supposed to be doing. If you are like me what you think you're trying to do won't look very much like what you actually do, and you need to get that cleaned up to make progress.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you! That's the kind of specific advice I'm looking for. Yes the book I have is Down Under Horsemanship . I have his DVDs and have watched a lot of his videos but this is my first time totally committing to starting at the beginning and working all the way through one method. The person who trained her is not a fan of CA. She's been taught backing and yielding but not his way.

I was encouraged by her attention to me yesterday. She does appear to want to learn and I feel like I'm making more progress with her and understand her better than before.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Lots of groundwork to establish respect, and control of her feet. Lots of desensitizing to scary things--- start small, and don't stop doing what you're doing until she stops moving. Then let her think a few seconds, and begin again. After a few tries, she won't move, then start stopping only when she offers some sign of relaxation-- lowering her head a big, a slow blink, yawning, licking, etc. The idea is to teach the horse that they can control their fear, and how to get 'up' and them come right back down.

When you ride, work on the things she's difficult with incrementally. If you can get ten feet down the driveway before she starts trying to head home, only go 8 feet. Work her hard in her 'safe zone' then let her rest 8 feet out. If she heads back home, she goes back to work there. After you ride, get off, loosen the cinch, and offer a rest away from the barn. When you get back to her barn, tighten the cinch up, lope circles for awhile, then leave her tied for an hour or so. T 

How is she tied away from her safety net? Find different, safe places to tie her and leave her there (keep an eye on her, of course) until she's standing relaxed with her head down and one foot cocked before you let her go. Might take 20 minutes, might take all day, but it WILL come. The horse will learn that being somewhere new is not always scary. 

The horse I'm currently training is so bad he'd rather work near his buddies until he drops than go ten feet away, so we're doing a lot of groundwork. I was very frustrated that I didn't think he was making much progress, but yesterday I had him tied to the outside of the roundpen while I worked a mare, and when I took the mare back to the barn, he didn't freak out about being alone. He waited patiently for me to come get him, so that is a HUGE step for him. It'll come. Two months ago, he would have gone over the round pen panels to get back to her. I'm using my beat-up beast of a horse trailer to work on the tying with him. I move it around. At first, it was right outside the pasture fence so he could still see his buddies. Now it's behind the barn near the grove. He's getting pretty good there, so then I'll move it down to the end of the pasture near the road next-- it's about 1000 feet from where the other horses are, so that's the plan. Yes, you need to push the comfort zone, but you need to be able to read just how far to push it. CA tends to overdo some things-- on a horse that is truly fearful, you can't push that hard. A horse that's afraid isn't thinking, so you need to take them only as far as to get the anxiety there, but still let them think.

Another thing that tends to work well-- hobbles. You have to know when your horse is ready for this and knows how to control panic so he doesn't hurt himself, but I teach all my horses to hobble as a matter of course, both for their own safety and because it really seems to help them learn to override 'panic' with 'think'. When they are comfortable with the hobbles and realize they can't take off and I know they're not going to blow up, I start introducing some things they were anxious about before. It's amazing how quickly they realize nothing is going to hurt them when the option to 'run home to mama' is taken away. 

Good luck! I'm working on this with a very anxious horse. Remember that in most cases, barn sour/buddy sour is due to anxiety. Take away the anxiety, and you'll see an improvement in your horse. I highly recommend Warwick Schiller's video subscription series. The groundwork alone will make a huge difference in your horse. It's well worth the cost. I've trained and worked with horses for 30 years, and was not making much headway with this horse. I liked Warwick's approach to teaching a horse how to control his own response to fear and anxiety while working to take it away, and it's really made a big difference in not only this horse, but in how I approach all my horses. It's not fast, but it does work. I'm training a friend's mare, and it's amazing how much nicer this horse is already to work around than she was a month ago when she got here. She is certainly progressing much faster than my project horse, but for him, I have to undo the fear. She doesn't have fear, but she is a pushy mare and my friend is not an assertive person, hence the reason I have her. I don't anticipate any problems whatsoever when I get on her.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Can't re call as to how this horse is, tied up solid and alone. If she is not good with that, then get her good with that fundamental basics.
It sure helps have the hrose thinking, being in an accepting mode, versus reactive, so that you can build on this very basic required fundamental that I insist all my horses learn
To take an old gem from a former member, whose experience in training horses, including problem horses was very extensive.
"horses are only as good as you expect them to be'.
Be a strong firm , but fair leader, and the horse in turn learns to have confidence in you, trust your judgement, knowing that you are 'looking out for the lions', so he does not have to.
Definitely push her out of her confidence zone, stop 'pussy footing' around her, expect her to lead and go where asked, and she will become a less reactive horse, one that trusts in your leadership, versus continually needing to test
Yes, not trying to ride past where you know you can, thus having the horse realize it is you who decides when to return, making home work, and riding away relaxing, all have their place, but ultimately, you need to have that body control, that ingrained response, that softness, created by riding in the comfort zone, so that the horse is 'broke', enough to be ridden through stuff.
It works and I don't think all the leading in the World, the never really pushing ahorse through stuff, hoping you are just going to de -sensitize them to everything possible, replaces that leadership
There is no way you are going to be able to de sensitize a horse to everything they might ever encounter. You can, however, get that softness in the body, that ingrained response, to be able to ride them through those things


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I think you are on the right track OP. It's just a matter of figuring out and/or knowing just how far to push your horse. 

Yes, you DO need to push her or you are never going to advance. We don't learn unless we are pushed out of our comfort zone. 

However on the same token, you don't want to push too far that she completely falls apart and her mind is not in a state where it can learn. 

Keep on doing what you are doing each day. Push her a little bit past her comfort zone and when you get her focus and good responses, quit and put her away. While her issues will still be there when you finally mount up again, you can use those same principles under saddle that you did on the ground. Keep her focus on YOU and let her learn to look to you for guidance.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I had one horse that I would ride to the next power line pole, then back, then the post after that and back, and so on. The first session took 2 hours but she improved after that. 

I had one horse for training that never improved in his separation anxiety. Probably was the reason he was free on Craigslist!

Taking them for grass walks- where you lead them down the street and let them graze, sometimes helps. 

Once you get to the point where the horse is upset and calling for his buddy, or acting up you have gone too far. If they are that upset, they aren't going to learn.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I appreciate all of the advice and encouragement. I must confess that I did not expect for things to continue to require so much patience and dedication. I had it in my head that once a horse was "broke," then it was "broke," and life would be a series of pleasurable trail rides. I had pictured us spending every weekend this summer horse camping and exploring all the trails. It's kind of a two steps forward, one step back, two steps back, two more steps back, 3 steps forward kind of thing.

I don't know if I can say we made any progress today or not. We started out with Ona tied and I did the CA stuff with PJ - just the personal space thing, backing, and yielding his hindquarters. Then I led PJ away, hand grazing him out of her sight etc. He was pretty relaxed and I enjoyed him. I don't think it will be long before I feel safe riding him away from the house - maye I'll ride him to lessons, instead of her. I got him as a husband horse but he's a little more my speed than Ona, I think. I was surprised when we got back to find my husband standing with Ona looking concerned. Apparently while we were gone she got herself so worked up that she got both front feet stuck through the gate. She got them out on her own. She's normally not like that, or I wouldn't have tied her near the gate. Usually she paws or snorts but she doesn't freak out when she's tied alone. It seems like she's getting more anxious instead of less anxious 

So then we switched them out. I did the CA stuff with Ona in the work area then brought her away from PJ. PJ always goes ape whenever I take Ona away from him. I let him run the fence line while I hand grazed her in the yard. He never quits running when he's in the pasture without her. He'll literally run for hours without stopping, if she's gone for hours. I guess he's been less frantic about it lately since I've been taking her for lessons. He's not calling for her so loudly that he's bringing the entire neighborhood over to check and see if he's OK anymore, at least, and he's cantering rather than galloping. Tonight I kept her within his sight and just a few feet outside of her comfort zone. He trotted the fenceline and actually stopped to drink some water a couple of times. My husband and my dad had a little bonfire so I brought her over near the bonfire and let her graze and get used to the popping noises while we visited, until it got dark, then brought her back to PJ.

So I don't know if we made any progress today or not.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

If it makes you feel any better, Trigger was a complete jackwagon this evening. This was the kind of evening that makes me want to give up. Bad thing is, he went further than usual and didn't rush back. He just got to the This Far and No Further Shall I Go place and that was it. 

Told my husband when he got home that Trigger had been a complete jerk tonight.

Husband countered with: Maybe you were the complete jerk tonight?

Didn't make me feel better but I can be honest: He may be on to something.


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## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

I didn't read through all the replies in detail, so I apologize if I am repeating something that's already been said. 

My filly and I dealt with this. She didn't really throw an absolute fit when she got away from a certain area but once we got over the hill from the barn, she started acting stupid. Spooking, rushing ahead of me, etc.

At first I thought she needed more time out. But she wasn't getting better. I tried comforting her because ultimately, horses act out like that because they're fearful. Let her eat in hopes that would calm her nerves. NOTHING worked. I finally got fed up with her being an idiot and started making it very uncomfortable for her to act like an idiot. She got to move her feet every time she did anything stupid. Sure enough, she got really calm after about 2 trips out. Now we can go anywhere and she acts like a model citizen - vet, shows, trails, etc. Perfect little angel. 

Ultimately I think what happened was I showed her I was in control. And she finally snapped out of it. Horses do not benefit from us coddling them after they get to a certain "point" - and I think anyone who has worked with an anxious horse knows what I mean. I compared it to a kid who had an unnatural fear with something. To a point you try to comfort and desensitize a kid, but you finally get to a point where you have to figuratively shake them and tell them to snap out of it because they're being absolutely ridiculous. 

I've worked with numerous buddy/barn sour horses and they all react differently to different "solutions." I've done CA and it has worked. Find a method that your horse progresses with and work on it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

progress is not giving up, and advancement can be baby steps, if need be. Better baby steps then a wreaK
Personally, I myself tie a horse that knows how to tie, in a safe place, out of sight and out of mind, and then just concentrate on the hrose I am working with
Thus, I don't take horse and tie them within sight of their buddy.I tie that horse up, in a safe place, or put him in a corral, and then focus on the horse I am working with.
Do you have either a corral or a barn?
If so, put that horse behind in either place, and then just concentrate on the horse you are working with, who must keep his attention on you.
That horse left behind, can figure out on his own, that calling, prancing around, gets him so where, and that his buddy will come back, thus learns to accept separation
NOne of my horses, even those that live together, call, or get hyped up if I take buddy away fro a ride. Sure, they will greet our return with a soft whinny, but they are not freaking out when we are gone.
NEVER tie a horse, where if he acts up, he can get in trouble, until he gets tot he point he totally accepts being tied, buddy leaving or not..
So, how long to get a horse outside of his comfort zone?. I guess perhaps the 'advance and retreat will eventually work
I rather get a horse truly broke, in his comfort zone, so you can ride him out,can keep control, and then just ride out and expect the horse to be fine, or, if he has a slight problem, get him back to you and ride him positively out.
I think, otherwise, you might wind up spinning your wheels endlessly. The more you ride them out positively, the more confident they become,JMO


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

horseylover1_1 said:


> I didn't read through all the replies in detail, so I apologize if I am repeating something that's already been said.
> 
> My filly and I dealt with this. She didn't really throw an absolute fit when she got away from a certain area but once we got over the hill from the barn, she started acting stupid. Spooking, rushing ahead of me, etc.
> 
> ...


Exactly! Our posts must have crossed,but coddling ahrose, just has you locked into the same old no win situation.
You must get that respect, so the horse listens to cues he understands, comfort zone or no, and along with that, will come the trust
Horses desire, and need strong fair leadership=that is their true sense of security, and not just their comfort zone


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> If it makes you feel any better, Trigger was a complete jackwagon this evening. This was the kind of evening that makes me want to give up. Bad thing is, he went further than usual and didn't rush back. He just got to the This Far and No Further Shall I Go place and that was it.
> 
> Told my husband when he got home that Trigger had been a complete jerk tonight.
> 
> ...


OF COURSE it makes me feel better! Misery loves company!!! My husband agrees that when Ona's a jerk to me, I'm a jerk to my husband. Stuff rolls downhil right? LOL! My husband says he didn't realize he was downhill to Ona. My husband is a saint and I swear I'm trying very hard not to let my horse get between us LOL



horseylover1_1 said:


> I didn't read through all the replies in detail, so I apologize if I am repeating something that's already been said.
> 
> My filly and I dealt with this. She didn't really throw an absolute fit when she got away from a certain area but once we got over the hill from the barn, she started acting stupid. Spooking, rushing ahead of me, etc.
> 
> ...


Another nail hit on the head, here. Yesterday when I tried just coddling her on the edge of her comfort zone, letting her graze, I did not feel like that was going to get me anywhere. She was not paying any attention to me. I could see how this would work for a fearful/anxious horse but Ona is not a fearful or anxious horse. She rarely gets scared of anything, but frequently gets frustrated and pushy. She is a strongly opinionated horse who wants everything her way all of the time. She thinks people are meant to serve her or get out of her way and that is my fault for buying a baby as my first horse and spoiling the crap out of her when she was little.

She needs to freaking knock it off and I'm going to have to be done coddling her. She reminds me of a certain spoiled rotten child I used to know, who needed to be taken out behind the woodshed but never gotd taken there. Now she's a spoiled rotten woman who loves to make people miserable.

I had her living with a trainer for over a year to get broke and for boarding. She rode her in the arena mostly, several times per week. She wasn't a professional trainer but was raised in a horse home and her parents showed in the world shows and won a lot of shows. Jessie started the horses and her parents finished them, and Jessie showed some of her own horses with help from her mom. Jessie was very impressed with Ona's conformation and beautiful movement but she wanted to give up on breaking her, a couple of times. She always used to tell me "you're never going to be able to handle this horse. You need to sell her. If you give this horse an inch she will take a mile." I would agree to sell her and then realize I'd spend the rest of my life worrying about her if I ever did. I decided either I was going to ride her or she was going to become a pasture pet, but there's no way I'll risk her being put on a meat truck. Finally, Jesse did get her broke enough that she thought I'd be able to handle her - and I WAS able to handle her, for a few months.

I'm going to go with the plan of taking her to the edge of her comfort zone, forcing her to listen to me and be quiet and behave and give me all of her attention, then treating her and taking her back. I'll ride her in her comfort zone and do ground work outside of it for now because riding her when she's acting like a brat is out of my comfort zone.



Smilie said:


> progress is not giving up, and advancement can be baby steps, if need be. Better baby steps then a wreaK
> Personally, I myself tie a horse that knows how to tie, in a safe place, out of sight and out of mind, and then just concentrate on the hrose I am working with
> Thus, I don't take horse and tie them within sight of their buddy.I tie that horse up, in a safe place, or put him in a corral, and then focus on the horse I am working with.
> Do you have either a corral or a barn?
> ...





Smilie said:


> Exactly! Our posts must have crossed,but coddling ahrose, just has you locked into the same old no win situation.
> You must get that respect, so the horse listens to cues he understands, comfort zone or no, and along with that, will come the trust
> Horses desire, and need strong fair leadership=that is their true sense of security, and not just their comfort zone


I have a "corral" of sorts. It's just a fenced off area of the original barbed wire fence, where I work the horses. I don't think it would be safe to leave them in there unattended. My barn isn't a proper barn but rather a large 3-sided building that was meant for storing tractors etc. Maybe it's time to go ahead and put some stalls in there or something...actually maybe it would be better to re-build the corral.....thinking aloud here. The horses really don't go in the barn that much at all, they prefer to go down into the woods when the weather is bad.

I wish I was a confident enough rider that I could ride Ona without panicking when she acts so badly because I really feel that if I were able to just be firm enough with her to force her to keep moving, we'd get through all of this so much more quickly. I'm not there yet. I could pay another trainer to "tune her up" and get her to where I can ride her unsupervised again, but then I'd just find myself in this same place again sooner or later. The instructor we've been going to is assuring me that Ona really can turn out to be a great horse for me and I will really enjoy her when we get there. I'll just keep only riding her with supervision. 

She hasn't been too bad for me when I'm riding her at lessons, but since I now have a broken rib from doing a very stupid thing on PJ (Mr Bombproof), I just don't want to get on a horse again until I get an air vest.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Horses are direct reflections of their owners. When you describe your horse as fearful, anxious, argumentive,... it tells me a lot about you. Don't feel too bad, my horses are fat and lazy. Attitude always reflects leadership, even with people.
When we are patient and tolerant (but firm) with a horse, we get a patient and tolerant horse.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

newtrailriders said:


> I had it in my head that once a horse was "broke," then it was "broke," and life would be a series of pleasurable trail rides.


No such thing as a "broke" horse. :wink::wink: I swear they are always a work in progress! Just some more than others....



newtrailriders said:


> Yesterday when I tried just coddling her on the edge of her comfort zone, letting her graze, I did not feel like that was going to get me anywhere. She was not paying any attention to me.


Correct. This will not get you anywhere. 

When you are working with your horse, it is work time. It is not coddle time. I think most people (myself included sometimes) are guilty of being "too nice" to their own horse. They can handle a hard day's work. 

You said you sent her to a trainer last year who pretty much did arena riding. Any possibility you could find a cowboy or ranch-hand that takes horses in for training? I'll bet Ona would benefit greatly from a couple months of working hard every day on a ranch. That usually takes care of the attitude problem.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I think OP brings up an excellent point. How many of us that either know nothing about horses, or have very limited experience, even if its like me, being around them a LOT as a kid, but not truly understanding them, get a horse and think once they're trained or 'broke' they stay that way? 

HOW MANY OF US have heard old cowboys say: That horse is too old to learn anything new?

And we find out the horse is learning each and every time we do anything with them?

I had the same idea. Get a broke-broke horse (Superman?) and they stay ready to ride out any time.

Get Trigger to where he trusts me on the ground, and that's all he needs, he'll remember all he knew before so far as riding and suddenly we'll click and go places and see people and not squabble at the gate?

That's some more of that reality that bites new horse owners in the behind. Fortunately, it sounds like a lot of horses owned by people here have people that realize its them, not the horse. At least I hope they do... or come to realize it, admit it, and seek help.

This is a good thread to reinforce the fact that they're constant work, demand consistency, and no matter the age, they are constantly learning, and there comes a tipping point where affection and earning trust can slide right into coddling and spoiling, then you have a whole new problem on your hands.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Also, I don't know if this can help OP, but the guy that gave us Supes told us to always unsaddle a horse in a random place. Don't take them directly back to the barn each and every time. Stop a half mile away or a quarter mile away, whatever it takes, untack them there, lead them home and make them walk respectfully. Go back for the saddle with the fourwheeler or the truck if you have to.

Take the truck out into the pasture to catch them, saddle them up there, then unsaddle at the barn.

Unsaddle in the pen, or saddle up in the pen, keep it random and that way they don't get in the habit of equating the barn with food and a luxurious rub down after untacking.

I realize that's for folks who have the luxury of living in a rural area with lots of land and no fear of leaving a saddle on the shoulder of the road and returning to find it gone or a lot of confused folks stopping to wonder why there's a saddle laying on the side of the road, but perhaps it could be helpful. We're starting that ourselves, as well as removing the buddy soured ones from said buddy, and taking the barn soured ones away from the barn and working on getting them calm out of sight of the barn... and tacking up or untacking there, not at their tie post.

When I do bring Trigger back to the barn, I've started leaving him tied at the post (with his saddle loosened a little) for a while after every ride. I usually eat dinner, clean other saddles, sweep the tack room, whatever it takes to stall him out. Sometimes its an hour, sometimes a half hour, but he doesn't get the tack right off.

It does seem to be helping, but again... baby steps. And sometimes they're so small its impossible for someone not directly working with that horse to recognize it.... and its so. darn. frustrating. 

OP - I feel you.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

newtrailriders said:


> OF COURSE it makes me feel better! Misery loves company!!! My husband agrees that when Ona's a jerk to me, I'm a jerk to my husband. Stuff rolls downhil right? LOL! My husband says he didn't realize he was downhill to Ona. My husband is a saint and I swear I'm trying very hard not to let my horse get between us LOL.


I skipped riding Trigger a few nights ago, said I didn't feel like putting up with his crap.

Husband: I don't think he wants to put with your crap either...

Ahhhh the little nuggets of wisdom that he's trickling out....

I could beat him to death for refusing to be helpful, Mr. I've Rode Horses All My Life and Now I'm Over Horses.

HOW ABOUT YOU HELP YOUR WIFE since she's feeding your heifers and checking your fences every day? :evil:


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Your problem is 'coddle'. You don't coddle, even with a fearful horse. You get that horse's focus on you, then keep stretching the comfort zone. Don't go so far out that the horse is unable to even think, but don't keep them in the 'safe zone' all the time, either. Take her far enough out that she's starting to react, but no so far she's in full panic/tantrum/flight zone (depending on the horse). If you do this consistently, the horse will start to have a much larger safe zone, and you'll get farther and farther out before you have an issue. If you can't get her attention and focus, that's not her fault, that's yours. Put her to work, then when she's focused and not throwing her tantrum, let her stop and rest.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You don't need to un saddle a horse at random places. I sure as heck am not going to walk home, then drive back and get my saddle!
You can, when riding in an arena, , and when the horse is going well, step off at a random place, esp not at the out gate
Nope, not going to either walk part way home, nor go back for my saddle! I will tie a horse up, saddled, at times, after he has worked and esp in the early training phase
. I then either let him chill out there for an hour or so, then un tack, or, I might ride him some around home, schooling him.
Thus, coming home never just means being turned out with buddies again, or turned out to eat, or even that work is over, although I relax that rule, once a horse is going well, and never starts to be drawn to home like a magnet, just 
tying him up occasionally, randomly before un tacking and turning back out.
This horse, also by what you have said, is not really fearful, just has learned to refuse, and you most definitely have to assert leadership, ride her through stuff
There are two ways of doing it, and I agree with Beau, having someone ride her, putting in long hours, like riding a grazing lease, would do wonders
The second way, is to build your own confidence, getting her truly more 'broke' in where you now can ride her successfully, so that you then have the tools both on yourself and the hrose to ride where you now cannot


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Hahaha GhostHorse! I could beat mine to death too, for being a total newbie sitting on his dead broke husband horse and telling me I need to chill out LOL. Although - I might definitely benefit from a chill pill. 



SilverMaple said:


> Your problem is 'coddle'. You don't coddle, even with a fearful horse. You get that horse's focus on you, then keep stretching the comfort zone. Don't go so far out that the horse is unable to even think, but don't keep them in the 'safe zone' all the time, either. Take her far enough out that she's starting to react, but no so far she's in full panic/tantrum/flight zone (depending on the horse). If you do this consistently, the horse will start to have a much larger safe zone, and you'll get farther and farther out before you have an issue. If you can't get her attention and focus, that's not her fault, that's yours. Put her to work, then when she's focused and not throwing her tantrum, let her stop and rest.


This evening - it's GOING to happen!!



Smilie said:


> This horse, also by what you have said, is not really fearful, just has learned to refuse, and you most definitely have to assert leadership, ride her through stuff
> There are two ways of doing it, and I agree with Beau, having someone ride her, putting in long hours, like riding a grazing lease, would do wonders
> The second way, is to build your own confidence, getting her truly more 'broke' in where you now can ride her successfully, so that you then have the tools both on yourself and the hrose to ride where you now cannot


Yup that's her. She's quite the opposite of fearful, I think. I would say she runs more to the side of aggressive, although she has never hurt anybody and she does have a very sweet side to her.

My dad's cousins own a huge ranch not too far from here. It's several thousand acres and they have hired cowboys from Mexico who work the cattle using horses owned by the cousins. I've occasionally considered sending her there to work for a while, but I'm not sure those cowboys are the best trainers of horses for ladies to ride on trails. I'm not sure I could stay on her if she became a real good cow horse. She already seems to kind of enjoy chasing things..... and she has one heck of a sliding stop on her when she wants to LOL. When she was a foal I once watched her run toward the barn as fast as she could and then she went to slide to a stop. There was a big frozen puddle in front of the door and she slid right on through the door and part way down the aisle. 

It would be nice to find someone to lease her to, though. Sometimes I fantasize about leasing her to a show person and letting them win lots of ribbons, and finding myself a nice older half arab to learn endurance and competitive trail riding on. Hey - wait! Aren't some of YOU ALL show people?!?! Come on now, somebody take her and rein with her or something. LOL too bad all the show people already have their hands full with their own horses.


You're right, Beau. There's no such thing as a broke horse, and least not to a green rider! The two horses I got injured on were both "dead broke" and "bomb proof". 


Elkdog....yes, I suppose I may be somewhat fearful, anxious and argumentative. But not near as bad as that daggone horse of mine LOL


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No horse is ever 'bomb proof', but they do become 'broke',through consistent good riding
For instance, Charlie is a reactive horse, came into my life when I had major things going on, was older, and then had a wreak in a warm up
My' younger self', would be disgusted as to how long it took me to make her into a good reliable horse, but that is the reality of life
When Charlie was three, and just started under saddle by me, her dam lost a breeding by transported semen to the AQHA pleasure stallion, Don't Skip this Chip


My vet wanted to use a younger mare for the re-breeding,and Charlie was the only colored pleasure bred Appaloosa mare I had at the time, to breed to an AQHA stallion
Thus, I had to break my own rule, and breed her as a three year old,before she had those two years at least, under saddle
Thus, one year as a broodmare, and one as a mare with a foal on her.
Then came double knee replacements for me
So, soon she was 6, green and needed to be shown one handed in a curb.I had someone ride her for me, for a month, and then felt I could ride again, about 3 months after double knee replacements.
Probably should not have been riding, period, esp on a green horse!

Anyway, she was going fairly well, and we even placed in some all breed shows under saddle.Then, she was run into, badly during a warm up, with the horse ahead of her balking, then running backwards, jamming into her left rear, while her rider accidentally hooked her with a spur, enough to draw blood.
I survived several big leaping bucks, got her head checked around, and got that whoa.
However, it took me tow years to get her trust back, in 'traffic
Now, I ride her out everywhere by herself, and she has become that half sister to my favorite gelding, Einstein, that I knew was hidden there somewhere, if only I rode her like I rode my horses in the past, forgot I was riding with double knee replacements and became the leader she needed me to be
What I am saying, as I got older, knew what could happen, coming off, esp after double knee replacements, I can Identify with the hesitation to push a horse through stuff, but I also knew that I had better ride like i used to, or sell her, as I was not doing her justice
I chose to try and ride like I used to, and she in turn became the horse I knew she could be


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Is Charlie the horse in your avatar, Smilie?

I'm a nurse and I've seen enough knee replacements to be very impressed at your toughness! I can not imagine getting back on a horse, much less staying on that wreck with two artificial knees. I bet you're going to tell me you got both knees done at once, too. That's insane! I've only known two people who have done that and they sure as heck didn't go out on horses. Congratulations on getting to where the two of you are today! Do you use the swivel stirrups? Did you have to trot Charlie in hand with two new knees??

I sure wish I would have learned more about horses before I got older and suffered so many broken bones, plus breast cancer. That's another thing that's made the past couple of years difficult. Whenever the horses and the weather are cooperating, it seems I'm recovering from an injury or a surgery. One or two more surgeries left to go and we'll be done with this crap, plus I ordered my new air vest today so that should help with the injuries! On the bright side, riding horses is a lot easier without ta tas bouncing everywhere. The new ones don't bounce LOL.

Ona's behavior was much better today. I brought her all over the yard, in and out of sight of PJ, and made her focus on me and obey me. She never offered to rear, never ran around or acted stupid. For the most part, she was relaxed and kept her head low and gave me lots of relaxed sighs. She did lift her head and get a little prancy at one point but that's it. Honest to God - she looks so sweet holding her head down low and giving me both eyes, I could just kiss her. But no coddling LOL.

PJ came up lame today. He's limping quite noticeably on his left front foot. It hurts for him to bear weight on it. I checked his hoof and it seems fine, and I didn't notice any warmth around his pastern but got the impression he may have felt a little tender just at the top of the hoof maybe. It didn't occur to me until just now that the problem may be up higher. I need to look closer at his leg, shoulder etc. Not that I know anything but I'd notice any warmth or swelling. He was still pacing the fence line while Ona was away from him, but at a pitiful looking trot rather than a canter. I think maybe he sprained or strained something. I have some pain medicine from when Ona had an injury about a year ago, but I don't think I want to give it to him. I'm worried if he doesn't have any pain he'll overdo things.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

I had an adventure with a buddy sour mule a few years ago. We went to Lewiston to chase cows in one spring. It is some of the finest riding in the world. If the ground was any steeper, a horse just wouldn't stick to it. It takes 2 or three healthy horses a day, they just play out. 
About the 3rd day I rode down to the ranch to get another horse. Mine was worn out, in fact all of mine were looking pretty tired. So I caught the mule. She had packed in with us and seemed pretty easy going. I saddled her up and off we went to chase cows. This was one of the most miserable rides I've ever had. She was braying, balking, wouldn't go with spurs sticking out both sides of her. We finally went about a mile up to the trail I wanted to go up and I just had to give up. I was peddling the whole way. She had a miserable plow rein so I took her back and traded her for one of mine, and off we went.
That night we were sitting around the cabin, eating beans and passin' gas. Talking about the days adventure. I started telling about my mule adventure and the owner just started laughing. It turns out I was the first person to ever fork her. That's right she had NEVER been ridden. She was a pack mule. 
She actually did pretty good for her first ride.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I'm literally laughing out loud, Elk Dog!!!!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

elkdog said:


> I had an adventure with a buddy sour mule a few years ago. We went to Lewiston to chase cows in one spring. It is some of the finest riding in the world. If the ground was any steeper, a horse just wouldn't stick to it. It takes 2 or three healthy horses a day, they just play out.
> About the 3rd day I rode down to the ranch to get another horse. Mine was worn out, in fact all of mine were looking pretty tired. So I caught the mule. She had packed in with us and seemed pretty easy going. I saddled her up and off we went to chase cows. This was one of the most miserable rides I've ever had. She was braying, balking, wouldn't go with spurs sticking out both sides of her. We finally went about a mile up to the trail I wanted to go up and I just had to give up. I was peddling the whole way. She had a miserable plow rein so I took her back and traded her for one of mine, and off we went.
> That night we were sitting around the cabin, eating beans and passin' gas. Talking about the days adventure. I started telling about my mule adventure and the owner just started laughing. It turns out I was the first person to ever fork her. That's right she had NEVER been ridden. She was a pack mule.
> She actually did pretty good for her first ride.


 Yes, that happens, as I heard the tale by one outfitter, who was helping to bring in a bunch of horses, for the person he was working for.
Of course, these good old guys like ajoke, well as the next person! That unfortunate soul, picked a horse he thought was green broke. He came back to camp, way, way after dark, to find out the hrose he had ridden, had never been ridden before, or packed, for that matter!
You can see as to why some of these good,ole guys, scoff at ground work.
They are more back in the days when a colt was hobbled, blind folded, climbed on, bucked out , and then that corral gate was opened for a ride out !


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

newtrailriders said:


> Is Charlie the horse in your avatar, Smilie?
> 
> I'm a nurse and I've seen enough knee replacements to be very impressed at your toughness! I can not imagine getting back on a horse, much less staying on that wreck with two artificial knees. I bet you're going to tell me you got both knees done at once, too. That's insane! I've only known two people who have done that and they sure as heck didn't go out on horses. Congratulations on getting to where the two of you are today! Do you use the swivel stirrups? Did you have to trot Charlie in hand with two new knees??
> 
> ...


 Yes, I got both knees done at once. I had procrastinated so long, fearing I would not be able to ride afterwards, that I put off those replacements, until my knees were so bad, that I walked like a duck, and was literally heading for a wheelchair
At first, I was going to have them done one at a time, but two weeks before the surgery, my OS offered to do them both at once. I jumped at the chance
Yes, it was tough at first, but I do not see as to how I would have walked correctly, with one straighten and the other so bowed.
As a lab tech, of course, I also focused on possible negative outcomes, like infections, thus needing the replacement removed, being on IV antibiotics, hoping that the second replacement would still have enough bone for good outcome
Once done , though, I was determined to have great results, pushed myself, and now have great ROM, can hike again, and, most of all, ride pain free.
I am also lucky that my daughter -in -law, is an OR nurse, thus arranged my entire surgical team (Ie the best ) I also lived with her and my son, for the first month.

No, the hrose in my Avatar is Smilie, and who has the past founder issues. She is also a horse I have ridden since she was two, earned many ROMs on. I rode her before knee replacements, and came off her only once, after replacements
Nope, not her fault. I started to show again, the summer after knee replacements, the previous NOv.
I was warming her up one morning at a show. There was no mounting block in the arena, and thus I scaled the arena fence, to get on. I thus failed to realize my saddle was not on tight enough
I had ridden her for about 3/4 of an hour, when I made a tight turn, and not yet riding with correct weight distribution, that loose saddle slipped and I came off.
Gentle fall, and good in away, as it showed me that I could come off and not damage my knees! 
Smilie meanwhile was ready to buck, with that saddle hanging on one side, and I thought, there goes my show saddle! But, when I and a few others yelled 'whoa', she stood,ingrained response taking hold

Here is Charlie, all 16.2hh of her !

First pic, when she was green, and shortly after knee replacements
Other two, about where she is now


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

We were at a draft horse driving clinic the other day, and someone asked about riding the draft horses. One of the guys said "Well, nobody has ever ridden my mares, but we can give it a shot." He hopped up on one, a volunteer on the other, and they made about four rounds of the arena at a walk, trot, and canter. Those mares never batted an eye. So pretty soon, everybody was riding a draft horse, most of whom had not ever been ridden. It was a testament to the temperament and training of these horses. By the time they're used to the noise and rattle of the harness, wagons, trace chains, farm machinery, etc. not much bothers them.

We were riding in the Montana backcountry about 10 years ago, and there was me, a friend, the outfitter who was also a friend of ours, two other riders who the outfitter was being paid to take hunting, and the outfitter's teen daughter who hated every second if it. We had three pack mules in the group. About the fourth or fifth day, a storm came in overnight and all but two of the stock headed down the backtrail toward the previous day's camp, including those who had been highlined when the tree blew over. Those left? Two of the mules who had entangled their lead ropes in some brush. Neither had ever been ridden. The hunters went off on foot in search of elk, the rest of the group settled in to enjoy the day in camp, and the outfitter took a mule and I took the other, and off we went in search of the rest of the stock. Those mules looked at us like we were nuts, but didn't do half-bad considering. Neither of them bucked, and once they figured out what we wanted, they behaved rather well and steering was better than expected. They were used to being tied and packed, so we tied them, saddled them, got on, pulled the lead lines loose, and off we went. We found the rest of the horses near the previous night's camp and thankfully not all the way back at the trailhead, saddled our personal horses, put those good mules and the rest of the horses in strings, and went back. No harm done, everyone was fine, and our outfitter friend now teaches all of his pack mules to be ridden, at least rudimentarily, as a matter of course! I am fond of good mules.


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## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

@newtrailriders Glad to hear about Ona's progress! Definitely keep us updated.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Draft horses that have been used, are simple to just get on and ride.
Afterall, I did that as a kid, with the Percherons that we used in the tobacco fields
They were never taught to 'ride', but at the end of the day, when they were finished pulling those tobacco boats, just hopped on, harness and all, and rode them home
Those mares were also turned out in winter, with leather halters on, by my step dad, just in big harvested fields.
I would hop on them bareback, pull that halter back by the crown, far enough with one hand, and then gallop full out over the snowy fields-not even using reins
When I was about 12 or 13, one of those mares had a foal, which I raised. With absolutely no clue or guidence in training that young draft, I just got on and rode her, and also taught her to pull a cutter
Draft horses, not only have cold blood, thus a very forgiving temperament, but by the time they have worked in harness lots, been exposed to stuff, are even more ready to ride, then any saddle horse just ground driven a bit before riding
No big deal riding them. Even standardbreds transition very well from driving to riding, as if they have done it all their life


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> We were at a draft horse driving clinic the other day, and someone asked about riding the draft horses. One of the guys said "Well, nobody has ever ridden my mares, but we can give it a shot." He hopped up on one, a volunteer on the other, and they made about four rounds of the arena at a walk, trot, and canter. Those mares never batted an eye. So pretty soon, everybody was riding a draft horse, most of whom had not ever been ridden. It was a testament to the temperament and training of these horses. By the time they're used to the noise and rattle of the harness, wagons, trace chains, farm machinery, etc. not much bothers them.
> 
> We were riding in the Montana backcountry about 10 years ago, and there was me, a friend, the outfitter who was also a friend of ours, two other riders who the outfitter was being paid to take hunting, and the outfitter's teen daughter who hated every second if it. We had three pack mules in the group. About the fourth or fifth day, a storm came in overnight and all but two of the stock headed down the backtrail toward the previous day's camp, including those who had been highlined when the tree blew over. Those left? Two of the mules who had entangled their lead ropes in some brush. Neither had ever been ridden. The hunters went off on foot in search of elk, the rest of the group settled in to enjoy the day in camp, and the outfitter took a mule and I took the other, and off we went in search of the rest of the stock. Those mules looked at us like we were nuts, but didn't do half-bad considering. Neither of them bucked, and once they figured out what we wanted, they behaved rather well and steering was better than expected. They were used to being tied and packed, so we tied them, saddled them, got on, pulled the lead lines loose, and off we went. We found the rest of the horses near the previous night's camp and thankfully not all the way back at the trailhead, saddled our personal horses, put those good mules and the rest of the horses in strings, and went back. No harm done, everyone was fine, and our outfitter friend now teaches all of his pack mules to be ridden, at least rudimentarily, as a matter of course! I am fond of good mules.


Know all about horses quitting camp, when you are packed way in, and an unexpected blizzard hits.!
We used to leave our hroses out on picket, all night to graze. In this particular spot, there was nothing but buck brush to tie them to. One mare, the one that had been on the track, we always left loose, as she would self destruct if she ever got tangled
For some reason, we left one horse tied close to our tent.
In the morning, the other three were gone, and heavy wet snow was falling.
In a hurry, to try and catch up to those hroses, before they went the entire 20 miles back to the staging area, I did not grab my slicker. They were almost back down, by the time I caught up with them, and my hrose was done, having trotted most of the way.

Thus, after tailing them up, it was a long, long,cold ride back-one I will never forget! In those days we really roughed it-thus no stove in that tent
I swear that I was only spared a death by pneumonia, because an outfitter was camped down form us, and did have a stove in a wall tent.

He was out scouting, but had left a hunter in camp, who provided both a chance to warm up on the outside with that fire in the stove, and rum for my insides!

Can't imagine sleeping over night now, in this tent!

Not the same place, but an idea of horses also really roughing it

Last picture is of the tent we got in later years. Need two pack horses then, but hey, worth it!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Smilie said:


> Draft horses that have been used, are simple to just get on and ride.
> Afterall, I did that as a kid, with the Percherons that we used in the tobacco fields
> They were never taught to 'ride', but at the end of the day, when they were finished pulling those tobacco boats, just hopped on, harness and all, and rode them home
> Those mares were also turned out in winter, with leather halters on, by my step dad, just in big harvested fields.
> ...


Well yeah, but considering that many of the people attending had not ridden before, or very rarely, it was a bit more of a testament than 'horse people' getting on them!! Lots of kids trotting along with smiles a mile wide, some the first time on a horse. The hames gave a nice hand-hold for them to grab!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

horseylover1_1 said:


> @newtrailriders Glad to hear about Ona's progress! Definitely keep us updated.


But of course!! I'm getting her further from the house every day. Today was the first day I actually relaxed and we had fun at it. We got the furthest we've got yet, and she seemed to be enjoying it. I figure the goal right now is just to get her calmly and safely as far away from the house as possible, so worked on keeping her calm and not getting after her too bad when she acted up but just giving her time to settle. We'd walk 20 steps, take a few bites of grass, walk 20 more. When she got high-headed I'd make her do the CA exercises but if she was calm she got to eat grass sooner. I think we could have made it all the way to my instructor's house (and my goal in all of this is to be able to RIDE her all the way to my instructor's house), but it got dark and we had to turn around. We'll get there. I told her I might not make her into horse burgers.

Smilie, you are a true inspiration!! It's awesome to hear you're hiking etc. I love hearing stories about people who do more after major medical ordeals than most young healthy people do. Grit, and determination! Charlie is GORGEOUS. 

I love your camping setup. That's the kind of stuff I used to dream about doing, and my husband would really enjoy the camping part of it a lot. I'm drawing the line at buying more equines, though. No pack mules - will just have to trailer camp as I'm positive it will be cheaper in the long run.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

newtrailriders said:


> But of course!! I'm getting her further from the house every day. Today was the first day I actually relaxed and we had fun at it. We got the furthest we've got yet, and she seemed to be enjoying it. I figure the goal right now is just to get her calmly and safely as far away from the house as possible, so worked on keeping her calm and not getting after her too bad when she acted up but just giving her time to settle. We'd walk 20 steps, take a few bites of grass, walk 20 more. When she got high-headed I'd make her do the CA exercises but if she was calm she got to eat grass sooner. I think we could have made it all the way to my instructor's house (and my goal in all of this is to be able to RIDE her all the way to my instructor's house), but it got dark and we had to turn around. We'll get there. I told her I might not make her into horse burgers.
> 
> Smilie, you are a true inspiration!! It's awesome to hear you're hiking etc. I love hearing stories about people who do more after major medical ordeals than most young healthy people do. Grit, and determination! Charlie is GORGEOUS.
> 
> I love your camping setup. That's the kind of stuff I used to dream about doing, and my husband would really enjoy the camping part of it a lot. I'm drawing the line at buying more equines, though. No pack mules - will just have to trailer camp as I'm positive it will be cheaper in the long run.


I[m excited for you!! Making progress! 2 steps forward 1 step back seems to take forever sometimes but worth it.
Some of the outfitters around here will "dude ranch" for you. Pack camp and supplies for you and you ride your own horses (or hike). My farrier and his dad outfit like this all the time.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Around here also, there are outfitters that will take quests into remote locations, where those areas can be accessed by hrose and wagon.
They have all the comforts of home in those locations that they are allowed to set up in, including bear fencing, power plants, nice tents with all amenities, (beds with mattresses, LOL. You can either go in with the wagon, and ride one of their horses, or just ride your own horse in, while all your personal supplies are brought in by the team and wagon
Maybe when I get 'really' old, I will do that Would be nice to have a meal cooked and waiting, after a ride, versus making it, when tired!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

elkdog said:


> I[m excited for you!! Making progress! 2 steps forward 1 step back seems to take forever sometimes but worth it.
> Some of the outfitters around here will "dude ranch" for you. Pack camp and supplies for you and you ride your own horses (or hike). My farrier and his dad outfit like this all the time.





Smilie said:


> Around here also, there are outfitters that will take quests into remote locations, where those areas can be accessed by hrose and wagon.
> They have all the comforts of home in those locations that they are allowed to set up in, including bear fencing, power plants, nice tents with all amenities, (beds with mattresses, LOL. You can either go in with the wagon, and ride one of their horses, or just ride your own horse in, while all your personal supplies are brought in by the team and wagon
> Maybe when I get 'really' old, I will do that Would be nice to have a meal cooked and waiting, after a ride, versus making it, when tired!


That sounds awesome! What's that type of trip called, so I can google it?!


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

^^^^ I recommend Mackey Bar on the salmon river. There is a trail named "Horse Heaven Trail" Incredible riding on 50 miles of the most beautiful country in the lower 48 and the best part is, no grizzly bears! You can fly in or take a jet boat. I drove in and it is the scariest road I've ever been on!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I've been reading Ona all wrong. Poor thing. She is NOT being disrespectful or mean towards me. Yes she has been in the past but we're past that. Yesterday I led her about 50 feet from my instructor's house and she did not get pushy with me or try to head for home. She did some things that, in the past, I would have interpreted as pushy based on what I've read in some places but she was not being pushy.

She comes into my body space for comfort, and this CA hula hoop thing makes her feel a little uncomfortable when I'm not careful about the timing and how I do it. When she's on the verge of a panic attack (which is happening less often), it calms her down a lot if I do a very _gentle_ version of the CA hula hoop. I use the lead rope to nudge her and get her attention on my face, back away from her a couple steps while making her stay where she is (rather than aggressively pushing her away from me), and calmly (like I'm talking to a toddler on the verge of a tantrum) say "Ona, look at me," and then start tapping on the lead rope until she gives me both eyes. Sometimes if there's something scary nearby it takes a few tries before I can get her to focus on me. While she's looking at me with both eyes I stand still and calmly and slowly count to ten and it calms her down the same way a mother can de-escalate a toddler. Then I have her back up and yield her hind quarters etc. to activate the thinking side of her brain fully. The "hula hoop game", done gently, has become a comforting thing for her when she's anxious, but if I try to get all aggressive and pushy and tap her face and demand she stay a whole "handy stick" away from me, for no reason, when she's being good, that scares her. It causes her to escalate and puts her on edge and we do not have a nice, relaxing time at all.

I spent hours grooming her every night when she was a baby. She's always liked to tuck her nose under my arm and hide her eyes at times, and just stand like that quietly. She still does it. 
She also LOVES to pull a person in for a big hug. She'll just put her head over your shoulder and pull you in tight and stand there like that. Everybody has always loved it when she does that and to suddenly start demanding a huge amount of personal space and not allow her to touch me is confusing for her.

Putting her to work is a transition for her and I really don't see any reason to be mean with her about it. I need to find a way to calmly get her mind on me while I'm on her back. As we get further and further from home and get more miles on us, I think she'll get more adventurous.

When she's too close to me and gets prancy or panicky or starts misbehaving, tossing her head and getting light on her front feet, then of course it's time to start popping that rope halter and backing her aggressively away from me before I get hurt. Sometimes I do have to be aggressive, but when she gets quiet then some physical affection is a good reward for her. When she gets nervous and prancy but she's not in my personal space, I just let her prance it out for a little while and let her calm down. She composes herself a lot faster that way than if I decide to lunge her or force her to stand still.

Also, she's an emotional eater LOL and letting her have a few bites of grass every 20 steps helps her to move forward into the "not sure zone." During this phase of enlarging her comfort zone, I'm letting her do it to keep her moving forward. When we first started, I had to stop every 25 feet even in the yard to let her eat. Now we get a few hundred feet away from the house before I let her have a bite, then go to the edge of where we got to during the last session and I allow her to keep eating every 20 steps as long as she's going forward. When she gets nervous, I do the CA games and calm her down and then we go forward again.

I need to find a way to calmly get her mind on me while I'm on her back. As we get further and further from home and get more miles on us, I think she'll get more adventurous and start acting like a "normal horse" and she won't need babying.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is one that is close to us, far as being located in a mountain area that is an easy haul for a day ride form us. I have never gone on one of their rides,having our own horses of course, but did attend a horseback wedding held at their facilities

Sunset Guiding and Outfitting Inc., Sunset Horseback Holidays - Enjoy Alberta's Rocky Mountains!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You don't need to either coddle Ona, nor be harsh, but you do need to set firm clear boundaries, that work for a herd/prey species, and not a toddler
Horses get their confidence from firm, clear but fair leadership, that is built around consistent expectations.
When they recognize you as that strong and fair leader, they in turn relax, BECAUSE, they learn to trust your judgement, so that when you indicate that something is not a problem they in turn accept that judgment, versus feeling they must be in flight and self preservation mode
All horses, if allowed, will snatch at food, when up set, and it is great to lead her out some, make that experience pleasant, by stopping somewhere when she is relaxed and listening, letting her hand graze some, making that outing pleasant
I would not be using that grazing, like a food bribe, or a trail of bread crumbs, to have her go where asked to.

I also do't believe in playing circling games. I get a horse leading well in his comfort zone, introduce a rope halter or stud shank, run under the chin there, if I think I might need it, and then I just expect them to lead with respect

That means never crowding me, never balking, never rushing ahead, and keeping slack in that lead shank
ONa will never gain confidence riding out, is she sees you as a weak leader, one whose judgement she can't trust, and one who just begs for her attention, versus one who insists that attention returns to her.
Sorry, you are still coddling her, and that just does not work well with horses. Horses are only as good as we expect them to be.
Not saying you should do what I would do, as everyone has their own comfort level, but just telling you, so you get the idea of an approach I would use
Ona would have had time spent tied up alone, for a foundation
I would make sure she understood 100% giving to pressure, in her comfort zone, using a plain halter and lead shank.
I would then introduce a stud shank, run under her chin, if I thought leading her somewhere out of her comfort zone might compromise my keeping control of her, thus teaching her that she can, when she wants to, balk, rear, try to pull away and have success doing so
Once she understood the function of that stud shank, and how to respond to it correctly (ie, always give, keep slack, so it does not need to come into play, and how to quickly give, when it does, versus moving into that pressure, I would just lead her where ever I wished to go.
What you are doing now, might eventually get you leading her to your trainer's, but you will most likely need to go through that same process going anywhere new
You need not try to expose her to everything she might encounter, and comfort her, when she gets excited, but rather be that constant leader, who she then trusts is looking out for those lions, she she does not have to, and a leader, where the same rules apply, either working in a comfort zone or outside of it


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Another point.
You do realize that you have created inconsistent boundaries, and horses don't make judgements as to when exceptions are made, but rather get resentful, unsure, when sometimes an action is corrected and other times is ignored, or ven allowed
A horse should learn not to invade your space, unless you invite him in.
Letting her 'tuck; people against her sometimes, while at other times getting after her, just does not work with horses. They do well in black and white, fair and firm boundaries, and not in grey boundaries that are inconsistent


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you so much, Smilie. I do trust your judgment. It kind of breaks my heart to lose that aspect of her. Some people know her as "Ona the hugging horse," and it makes people so happy when she does that. 

I need to find some sort of consistent middle ground.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Does not mean that you can;t still hug her, ;just because', as I often hug Smilie and Charlie
They just don;t get the initiate that interaction, be it presenting their butt to be scratched, like some horse learn to do, or check me out for treats, ect.
If you allow her to crowd you , when she gets frightened, how then can she extrapolate that from not running over you, if you are between her and some source of fear?
I don't get putting her to work, running circles, when she gets up tight, out of her comfort zone.
Perhaps if she was just being disrespectful, but fearful, not so much in my books, as you are telling her to run, yet she can't really flee.
It works at times, riding, as you have your legs and the reins, to take head away, disengage hips, do familiar exercises that gets her focus back on you, but it is not something I would use leading. Others might think different, so whatever works


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## Lylly (Aug 11, 2014)

SteadyOn said:


> If this were me, this is how I'd approach it.
> 
> Have a leading set-up that gives you better pressure than just a flat nylon or leather halter. I like a thin rope halter. Though for horses who are likely to really pull and test, a chain might work better. Have a fairly long lead rope. Have a dressage whip or Parelli stick -- something you can direct with to do a mini lunge session on a tiny circle. Also have some treats, because bribery can help make this experience a lot more pleasant for both of you.
> 
> ...


Awesome advice: this works for my extremely low self-esteem rescue mare :icon_frown: I do this in small doses with her she will mess you up if you push to far & the last thing you want is for them to see doubt or fear from you. another way is to walk out then when she wants to turn to go to were she feels secure go back ( in your case the work area ) and work the crap out of her there, move her hip then her shoulder then back up, repeat as many times as you can then, walk out calm and cool. If she wants to go back repeat the same thing. eventually she wont want to go back lol the trick is to be calm when walking away even rest away, take a deep breath calm and cool away from the secure area.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Get the respect, leading, in the comfort zone, and then lead that horse where ever you want to.
While working a horse under saddle, that is barn sour, around home, has it's place, in hand, you should be able to lead a horse anywhere, with the right foundation,and with any with whatever aids needed.( Be nice halter, rope halter, stud shank)

A horse that leads with respect, does not question as to where he will or will not lead
If you can't even lead a horse somewhere, you need to do some more basics in his comfort zone,before taking him anywhere,, JMO
Un like riding, there is only one thing a horse has to be solid on , when it comes to leading, and that is giving to pressure 100%, no matter as to what is going on around him. You simply cannot let a horse decide where he will or will not lead!
Personally, if I did not think i had control of a horse, I would never lead him out, as you never know what comes along. Might lead down that road fine, one day, as you gradually wean him out of his comfort zone,but what happens if a deer suddenly pops out of some trees, a big truck comes towards you? Changes everything, and then you better hope you have something besides that horse having become more comfortable, going out grazing here and there
Not going to do much, working him around home, if he pulled away and spooked into traffic!
I guess, I will change that quote of John lyons abit.
His advise goes something like this:\:ride where you can, until you get the skill and training, to ride where you now cannot
That goes even double leading, as leading is way more basic.

Thus,lead your horse where you can, until you get the respect and training, to lead him where you now cannot


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Smilie said:


> Does not mean that you can;t still hug her, ;just because', as I often hug Smilie and Charlie
> They just don;t get the initiate that interaction, be it presenting their butt to be scratched, like some horse learn to do, or check me out for treats, ect.
> If you allow her to crowd you , when she gets frightened, how then can she extrapolate that from not running over you, if you are between her and some source of fear?
> I don't get putting her to work, running circles, when she gets up tight, out of her comfort zone.
> ...


That's a relief. She hugs people who walk up to pet her so I guess that counts as the people initiating it  I really don't like the circle thing at all and it's driving me nuts because she thinks I'm trying to tell her to circle around me after I let her grab some grass and then try to cue her to go forward. The circle trotting seems to work her up and I've been halting her and leading her forward, trying to avoid the circling. 

It's when she starts to crowd me when she's nervous that I make her do the CA "hula hoop" thing and just calm down and stand still and look at me. When she's nice and calm and h as her head low I pet and rub her a little before moving her forward again. It really calms her down and I'm wonderingi what I'll be able to do to calm her while I'm in the saddle.



Lylly said:


> Awesome advice: this works for my extremely low self-esteem rescue mare :icon_frown: I do this in small doses with her she will mess you up if you push to far & the last thing you want is for them to see doubt or fear from you. another way is to walk out then when she wants to turn to go to were she feels secure go back ( in your case the work area ) and work the crap out of her there, move her hip then her shoulder then back up, repeat as many times as you can then, walk out calm and cool. If she wants to go back repeat the same thing. eventually she wont want to go back lol the trick is to be calm when walking away even rest away, take a deep breath calm and cool away from the secure area.





Smilie said:


> Get the respect, leading, in the comfort zone, and then lead that horse where ever you want to.
> While working a horse under saddle, that is barn sour, around home, has it's place, in hand, you should be able to lead a horse anywhere, with the right foundation,and with any with whatever aids needed.( Be nice halter, rope halter, stud shank)
> 
> A horse that leads with respect, does not question as to where he will or will not lead
> ...


So - maybe back up a little on continuing forward outside the comfort zone and, instead, spend a lot ore time leading her around in her comfort zone and do lots of stopping, turning, etc. and get her behaving perfectly 100% of the time while leading at home? That certainly sounds a lot easier. I do want to work on expanding her comfort zone too, though.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Personally I don't like the tiny little circle thing. It can make them near impossible to get on when you go to ride. Every time you get beside them to put your foot in the stirrup they start spinning. That'll drive you nuts!
If they don't lead for me I make them go backwards. It's the only time I grab the lead rope right under the chin and drive into their chest with my shoulder. Make them back up FAR, until going forward is the release.
When I lead away from the heard they keep the focus on me. I'm the new leader! If they look away I ram into their shoulder with mine. Keep their focus on me at all times. It only takes once or twice for even the most spoiled horse to figure out. Here again the backing up thing will work wonders.
I despise the use of whips and chains, or anything that causes pain. If she isn't leading with a lead rope, use a lariat. Put it loosely around her butt. Any time the lead rope gets tight, gently pull the lariat to give pressure from behind. Horses respond GREAT to this.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Stud chains don't cause pain, used correctly, same as spurs.
You always give the hrose a chance to respond to the lightest aid first, one they understand first, before backing up either with a spur or chain
When a horse understands perfectly well how to respond to a halter, you introduce a chain run under the chin. That chain is long enough, loose enough , that it never comes into play, if the horse leads with respect, keeping a loose lead shank, same as you never go to the spur, unless the hrose ignores a leg aid he understands
That chain also releases immediately, soon a that horse gives.
Same as a horse knowing you ride with spurs, seldom needing to be touched by a 
spur, a horse , taught to be light leading, using that chain run under the chin, seldom if ever, engages that chain.
People who think a stud shank is cruel, do not understand how to introduce a horse to one, nor use it correctly, same as those that think spurs are cruel
Watch a showmanship class. Those horses are very light in hand, yet relaxed, and lead perfectly well, with just an ordinary lead shank and halter. That chain is there, same as spurs, for 'just in case', when you are showing,and need that instant response.

Watch this youth showmanship. You see a respectful horse, not one that is upset, afraid of that chain run under the chin, as the hrose knows that chain will never come into play, if he responds to that lead shank correctly

Both when riding or leading, I absolutely disagree with backing a horse that refuses to go forward. You are correcting the wrong thing-loss of forward motion, and in fact, can actually teach a horse that balks to run backwards

far as using a lariet, now we are talking nerve line.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

oKay, just read where you are using that lariat around the butt. That is a way to halter break a horse, and I did that with weanlings all the time. However, a horse that IS halter broke, understands that lead shank, but balks, is disrespectful, does not need a butt rope, anymore then a grown teenager having a tantrum needs a soother!
A horse that through incorrect handling, has learned that he can refuse to lead as asked, has learned he can pull away, when he wants to, has to be handled in such away that the wrong thing is both uncomfortable and unsuccessful, making the right thing easy.
A horse that has never learned that the halter and lead shank are just a conditioned response, never gets to the place where he ever needs to be lead with anything except a plain halter and lead shank, unless they are shown, where they are introduced to that chain run under the chin, for lightness, not control, same as spurs
Most of our horses we never showed, have been only lead with a plain halter and lead shank. Trained correctly from birth, they never learned to question that response, learned to balk, learned to be disrespectful leading in general.
Once you have allowed a horse to develop a vise, be it rearing, pulling away when led, balking, halter pulling, you then must first erase that negative learning, by whatever it takes, before they can be replaced with positive learning

I get the picture, and pardon me if I am wrong, that this horse;s main problem is that she has been treated a bit like that proverbial barnyard pet, with the incorrect balance between firmness and being too soft.

In other words, the golden rule has not been followed close enough:

"Be as gentle with a horse as possible, BUT also as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen'

Too many people now get that first part, which is good, but fail, for the horse;s own good, to grasp that equally important second part


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Smilie said:


> Stud chains don't cause pain, used correctly, same as spurs.
> You always give the hrose a chance to respond to the lightest aid first, one they understand first, before backing up either with a spur or chain
> When a horse understands perfectly well how to respond to a halter, you introduce a chain run under the chin. That chain is long enough, loose enough , that it never comes into play, if the horse leads with respect, keeping a loose lead shank, same as you never go to the spur, unless the hrose ignores a leg aid he understands
> That chain also releases immediately, soon a that horse gives.
> ...


If you think a stud chain doesn't hurt, go ahead and put one on. Hit yourself in the ribs with spurs several times, and put a long shank bit in your mouth for a couple of hours. Give someone with "light hands" the reins. This line of thinking is why you have to tie your horses when you go camping. You mentioned once they got loose and ran off in the night.
I just let mine go when I'm out in the back country. They never stray far from camp and are within ear shot EVERY morning. In fact there is no fence to the east of my place. I don't need one. They're free to go to Montana anytime they want. In the 5 years I've been here nobody has ever left.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I feel like my problem has been that I go from being too gentle to being too "firm," and I'm having trouble finding the middle ground. When she was downright awful one day I did get really mad and lunged her hard until she was begging to stop, and she was really good for a few days after that. I've had to do that twice, actually. Then she slowly started getting a little less respectful, and then a little less....and I can't tell which of her behaviors are disrespectful and which aren't, until things have reached a certain point. I want to be fair and not just assume she's being disrespectful. It's so hard to tell!

She's definitely making progress. Only a couple of weeks ago she was rearing straight vertical in the air if I took her 2 feet from the gait. Now I can get her calmly out of the yard and a ways down the road before she starts to balk, and she doesn't rear anymore. She's definitely not 100% under my control when I'm "leading" her down the road, though. Sigh.

It's not as if she's never been trained to lead, by the way.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

newtrailriders said:


> I feel like my problem has been that I go from being too gentle to being too "firm," and I'm having trouble finding the middle ground. When she was downright awful one day I did get really mad and lunged her hard until she was begging to stop, and she was really good for a few days after that. I've had to do that twice, actually. Then she slowly started getting a little less respectful, and then a little less....and I can't tell which of her behaviors are disrespectful and which aren't, until things have reached a certain point.  I want to be fair and not just assume she's being disrespectful. It's so hard to tell!
> 
> She's definitely making progress. Only a couple of weeks ago she was rearing straight vertical in the air if I took her 2 feet from the gait. Now I can get her calmly out of the yard and a ways down the road before she starts to balk, and she doesn't rear anymore. She's definitely not 100% under my control when I'm "leading" her down the road, though. Sigh.
> 
> It's not as if she's never been trained to lead, by the way.


Reading your posts, I think you're overcomplicating things by trying to work out her intentions behind each action. Just to give an example: if a horse gives "love bites" versus "aggressive bites," neither behaviour should be tolerated and both need to be corrected. You'll make it less complicated for both of you by ignoring the intentions you're projecting on her when you set your boundaries. If biting isn't allowed, it isn't allowed. If crowding isn't allowed, it isn't allowed. If she has to lead well she ALWAYS has to lead well. Be consistent and firm about enforcing your boundaries so you both know the rules, and it will help you to enforce them and her to respect them. You shouldn't need to suddenly make things a big deal and then back off completely about them. That's not fair to either of you.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

elkdog said:


> If you think a stud chain doesn't hurt, go ahead and put one on. Hit yourself in the ribs with spurs several times, and put a long shank bit in your mouth for a couple of hours. Give someone with "light hands" the reins. This line of thinking is why you have to tie your horses when you go camping. You mentioned once they got loose and ran off in the night.
> I just let mine go when I'm out in the back country. They never stray far from camp and are within ear shot EVERY morning. In fact there is no fence to the east of my place. I don't need one. They're free to go to Montana anytime they want. In the 5 years I've been here nobody has ever left.


Well, bring your ponies to where we ride,have a blizzard move in over night, and then perhaps you might be taking a long hike in the morning
Not even going to argue with someone who has no concept of using spurs, bits or any other equipment correctly.
But wait, you have a mare that bites the **** of other horses, if they won;t cross a river.
There is not one person who rides in our back country, where we have wolves, grizzlies, elk, and who does not tie their horses over night

We also tie our horses,on hunts, and go on foot to blinds, returning after dark, with our horses still waiting. Now, I suppose you are going to tell me, you give the command to your horses to 'stay;, leave them back in some mountain area for several hours and they are just going to be waiting.

There are horses on that government ranch,at the Ya Ha Tinda,used for the park services, and they stay in that general area,because, a , that is =where the grass is, and it is also their home range

Our horses don;t live in the mountains-we haul to them.
I explained as to how a stud shank is used correctly. Yes, if some idiot does not first get a horse truly giving to pressure, just puts a stud shank on a horse and then shanks him, it is going to hurt. That is not the way I said to use it.
I also mentioned that i don't trail ride with spurs, so no need for anyone that does not require showring finesse, to ever use spurs. I and others also mentioned how to use spurs correctly

In fact, I'd be very interested to see you haul your horses , ride into our back country, esp this time of year,and just leave them loose over night- some 30 to 40 mils in, no cell phone and no vehicle is going to come along and give you a ride
Then let a blizzard move in horses are going to move down, into lower country,where there is more food
Gee, my horses come when I call them, greet me with a whinney, are all easy to halter, guess they must really fear me!


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

newtrailriders said:


> When she was downright awful one day I did get really mad and lunged her hard until she was begging to stop, and she was really good for a few days after that. I've had to do that twice, actually. Then she slowly started getting a little less respectful, and then a little less....and I can't tell which of her behaviors are disrespectful and which aren't, until things have reached a certain point. I want to be fair and not just assume she's being disrespectful. It's so hard to tell!
> 
> She's definitely making progress. Only a couple of weeks ago she was rearing straight vertical in the air if I took her 2 feet from the gait. Now I can get her calmly out of the yard and a ways down the road before she starts to balk, and she doesn't rear anymore. She's definitely not 100% under my control when I'm "leading" her down the road, though. Sigh.
> 
> It's not as if she's never been trained to lead, by the way.


I cherish every minute I get to spend with the horses. When I'm with them there are no bills, taxes, work, responsibilities, just us.
Anger can NEVER be part of our time together. If a horse is doing the wrong thing, I'm asking the wrong question. I look at myself and work to improve ME. 
Horses are the 2nd greatest teachers of patience and tolerance in the world. Teenagers are the first. All we have to do is listen to them (horses, not teenagers) and learn.

A horsed that is trained to lead will lead anywhere. Through mud, water, over down trees, in the trailer, away from home, and will follow on the way back.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Now, that I truly agree with.
A horse that truly leads, leads anywhere, and why, trailer loading problems are not really trailer loading problems, but leading problems
The Obstacle is not the obstacle. The basic 'hole' is
A horse that trusts and respects you, does not question as to where he will or will not either lead or ride, caveat being, when riding, if I myself am not sure of some aspect of a trail, and I am riding a horse that generally rides where asked, without an issue, and he indicates something might not be safe, I listen to him
We train horses, correctly, so they are conditioned to accept that an ordinary lead shank and halter, controls them, when in reality, we know that there is no way without that conditioned response, we can in fact, prevent an adult horse, or even a younger horse, from pulling away, balk or whatever.
Once we have allowed a horse to successfully test that conditioned response, learned he can balk, rear, pull away, then we need to use whatever it takes, to make any other future attempt un successful
That correction is never done in anger, but rather in a'make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.
If you done your homework correctly, one never needs to erase bad habits, established through incorrect handling
My time with horses is also my time when all other problems disappear. It was my gelding Einstein, that helped me through my cancer year, including the chemo
When I rode him, started him as just a three year old, rode him , when I most likely should not even have been riding a seasoned horse, and he worked so willingly, I was just 'me' and not a cancer patient
When I had to put him down, at age 21, it was like loosing a family member, and one of the hardest thing I ever had to do.
Loving horses does not preclude using that firm as needed, when it is indicated, because either you or someone else messed up a horse.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I can not believe I'm even saying this, but I think I was one of those ridiculous people with a pipe dream and I need to get out of horses before they kill me or I ruin them.

I haven't done anything with either horse in a week. I've just been catching and feeding them and picking their hooves.

We were going to go horse camping this weekend but now PJ is limping again. The farrier can't come until Saturday and I can't see anything wrong. 

I don't know what I am doing. I'm wasting time and money on something I do not, and will never, know enough about. 

When we have an instructor with us we do great. I can not bring my instructor with me on every single ride and I don't think I can afford lessons forever.

I don't know what to do. Ona is absolutely stunning and has beautiful movement and conformation. Everyone who sees her, vets and horse people etc., tells me that. She's smarter than heck. I feel like if I could find a really good, experienced horse person for her, she has a ton of potential. I'm just so afraid if she doesn't get the right person she'll end up on the meat truck.

What do I do??


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

newtrailriders said:


> I can not believe I'm even saying this, but I think I was one of those ridiculous people with a pipe dream and I need to get out of horses before they kill me or I ruin them.
> 
> I haven't done anything with either horse in a week. I've just been catching and feeding them and picking their hooves.
> 
> ...


My horses are employees, plain and simple. It took me years to get to the 5 I have now. As an employer of both people and horses, if an employee doesn't have the aptitude to do the job, or wants to argue about everything they are fired.
I'm not an advocate of disposable horses, so don't get me wrong. The ones I've sold (at a profit) are good useable horses. They just didn't fit my needs. There was a recent thread about "just a trail horse" and I laughed all the way through it. When the saddles go on, mine are absolute professionals at what they do.
I was once engaged to a beautiful woman. Just one problem. She was an alcoholic. I couldn't stand the thought of watching her drink herself to oblivion, so I walked away. It hurt like hell, but we only have 1 run through this life so I asked myself "Is this the absolute best?"


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sit back, take a breath!
Relationships with horses can be up and down, same as with a significant other
Look at the big picture. Is your time with Ona, mainly negative, or do you have some great times? In other words, is the relationship worth trying to keep?If not,
, there once was a great article in Horse and Rider, I believe
It was titled, "When you know it is time to divorce your hrose' Nether marriage or horse ownership needs to be based on,'until death us do part'
When you have to force yourself to work with your horse, dread riding the horse, it is time to divorce that horse
Both of you can find partners that are more suitable. Why give up horses, as you seem to love them, based on a bad relationship, when that perfect horse partner can be out there waiting for you?
Sell Ona. Hopefully, she will find that person willing to work with her.
Take your instructor hrose shopping with you, to find a horse suitable for where you are at, a horse you can enjoy, and that your instructor can help show you how to keep his training and respect, versus trying to train both yourself and the hrose.
It cost just as much to care for a horse you can enjoy, then one that does not really allow you to enjoy your goal of trail riding, relaxed, on reliable hrose.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

What type of horse is Ona again?


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

elkdog said:


> My horses are employees, plain and simple. It took me years to get to the 5 I have now. As an employer of both people and horses, if an employee doesn't have the aptitude to do the job, or wants to argue about everything they are fired.
> I'm not an advocate of disposable horses, so don't get me wrong. The ones I've sold (at a profit) are good useable horses. They just didn't fit my needs. There was a recent thread about "just a trail horse" and I laughed all the way through it. When the saddles go on, mine are absolute professionals at what they do.
> I was once engaged to a beautiful woman. Just one problem. She was an alcoholic. I couldn't stand the thought of watching her drink herself to oblivion, so I walked away. It hurt like hell, but we only have 1 run through this life so I asked myself "Is this the absolute best?"


The thinking side of my brain agrees with you 100%! The feeling side....sigh. 



Smilie said:


> Sit back, take a breath!
> Relationships with horses can be up and down, same as with a significant other
> Look at the big picture. Is your time with Ona, mainly negative, or do you have some great times? In other words, is the relationship worth trying to keep?If not,
> , there once was a great article in Horse and Rider, I believe
> ...


I've been putting my feelers out for a good, solid, old trail horse. I can't bring myself to sell Ona. I know it's just plain stupid but I also know I'd worry about her forever. I love her too much! I don't have to trail ride her, though. If I have another horse for trail riding I can take some time to figure things out.

My farrier suggested sending her to his Amish friends for a while. He said their kids charge $10 a day to work a horse, and that is 8 hours per day of work. I know lots and lots of hours under the saddle is really what she needs but I also know that his horse that he just got back from them has become quite difficult to catch because he doesn't want to be worked. Do any of you all have any thoughts on this suggestion?



SilverMaple said:


> What type of horse is Ona again?


She's a quarter horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

My stepdad once sent that young draft horse I trained as a kid, to the Amish, as I had made her accidently into a one person type horse .
Well, they certainly worked her, and she came back with a huge collar sore
I guess, it would perhaps get her trained, but not sure how that end result would be, and why many people are quite fussy as to who they ever send a horse to be trained
Can you perhaps check out how those kids ride/train first?
Good idea to get a solid trial horse, and leave your decision, far as Ona open, finding the right situation either in her further education, or the right home


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Thanks, Smilie, I was thinking of the pros and cons of sending her there and worried they might work her "like a rented mule". Maybe I can get Dan to bring me out there to meet them the next time he goes.

Oddly enough, after not doing anything with her for over a week, I led her very quickly all the way to Nicole's and back this evening in the dark without a single argument from her. I think I figured it out LOL. I just have to look straight ahead at where I want to go, not look at her at all, and basically pretend she's not there. If her nose got a little in front of me or back behind me I made it uncomfortable by popping on the lead rope, otherwise I ignored her entirely. She walked the whole way quietly with her head down and the lead rope slack most of the time.

I have been browsing ads for horses for sale and have come across a number of old geldings that have done a lot of trail riding. I'm just wondering if two geldings and a mare is a recipe for trouble?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

newtrailriders said:


> Thanks, Smilie, I was thinking of the pros and cons of sending her there and worried they might work her "like a rented mule". Maybe I can get Dan to bring me out there to meet them the next time he goes.
> 
> Oddly enough, after not doing anything with her for over a week, I led her very quickly all the way to Nicole's and back this evening in the dark without a single argument from her. I think I figured it out LOL. I just have to look straight ahead at where I want to go, not look at her at all, and basically pretend she's not there. If her nose got a little in front of me or back behind me I made it uncomfortable by popping on the lead rope, otherwise I ignored her entirely. She walked the whole way quietly with her head down and the lead rope slack most of the time.
> 
> I have been browsing ads for horses for sale and have come across a number of old geldings that have done a lot of trail riding. I'm just wondering if two geldings and a mare is a recipe for trouble?


Glad to hear you are having some positive experiences with Ona!
Sometimes that is all it takes, to gain anew perspective, see a cup as half full, versus half empty!

We all have been there with horse, trust me!
Far as the gelding mare mixture, you are going to get different opinions on that one, based on individual experiences, way they manage their horses, whether horses are coming and going, versus a stable herd, ect
Many places that board horses, with those herds ever changing, find it best to simply group horses into mare and gelding pastures
On the other hand, people like myself, who raised hroses, thus always had horses that required them to be separated more as to feeding needs, then sex between mares and geldings, find that horses do work things out, and as long as the geldings or mares, know the rules, as to how they should act, when handled or ridden, they sort it out good enough in the pasture
For instance, I am boarding an older gelding for a friend. At first, Rubix, hubby's gelding, kept him driven away from my son's horses, which included one filly. As time went on, Rubix accepted the presence of that gelding

My son took his horses home,for the winter, so that left Ace and Rubix alone in that pasture. They became sort of buddies, with Rubix remaining the boss
Then, I turned my trail riding Horse, Carmen, out for the winter with them, as during the grass growing months I have to manage her,but now it is okay to turn her out full time
Carmen is Rubik's Woman', far as Rubix is concerned, as they have chalked up many trail miles together
Thus, at first , Rubix drove Ace off, when ever he even ventured close. My pastures are large, so no problem.
Now, about three weeks later, I see all three grazing together.
Long story short, it has always worked for me to tun mares and geldings together, except, of course, when mares had foals on them.
Others have found it to be a[problem
I even turned horses that we used as stallions for several years, out with a mixed herd, after they were gelded, and after a year or so had passed


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## Lylly (Aug 11, 2014)

newtrailriders said:


> I feel like my problem has been that I go from being too gentle to being too "firm," and I'm having trouble finding the middle ground. When she was downright awful one day I did get really mad and lunged her hard until she was begging to stop, and she was really good for a few days after that. I've had to do that twice, actually. Then she slowly started getting a little less respectful, and then a little less....and I can't tell which of her behaviors are disrespectful and which aren't, until things have reached a certain point. I want to be fair and not just assume she's being disrespectful. It's so hard to tell!
> 
> She's definitely making progress. Only a couple of weeks ago she was rearing straight vertical in the air if I took her 2 feet from the gait. Now I can get her calmly out of the yard and a ways down the road before she starts to balk, and she doesn't rear anymore. She's definitely not 100% under my control when I'm "leading" her down the road, though. Sigh.
> 
> It's not as if she's never been trained to lead, by the way.


Yaaaaa this is awesome progress some horses take 2 weeks and there out the gate paying attention to your every command and others take a year :shrug: referring to my rescue mare lol If your progressing then your doing it right theirs, no time limit. look up Coloradoreinsman on YouTube I think his videos will help you, they sure helped me. 



 this one is also good


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Well we walked the half mile to Nicole's today then another half mile past that. I think we have cleared this hurdle and it's time to restart the journey, with me on her back this time


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

I have a gelding that just turned 3 in May. Last year I put a pack saddle on him and he had the extremely important job of toilet paper holder. If you think it's unimportant, find yourself without while on the trail! He took his job serious.

This year I decided it's time to ride him. His name is "Witko" (it means crazy in Lakota) and he lives up to it! We started in the corral and all went well. He was turning both ways well, going forward and backward, stopping nice and would stand. So last week I decided to take him out in the field. We went around the field a couple of times and he stopped in front of the gate. So I figured "why not?" I thought we would ride up to the horse trailer parked at the end of the driveway. We got to the trailer and he walked right by it! So I had him turn right and down the road we went. About a mile, or so. It was like he was born to do it. This guy will surpass his half sister in no time. She's been my main saddle horse since I retired their mom.

On our way home for some reason I was thinking of you @newtrailriders hoping you were safe and making progress.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Lylly said:


> Yaaaaa this is awesome progress some horses take 2 weeks and there out the gate paying attention to your every command and others take a year :shrug: referring to my rescue mare lol If your progressing then your doing it right theirs, no time limit. look up Coloradoreinsman on YouTube I think his videos will help you, they sure helped me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JQCEhNs510 this one is also good


I tried watching this video but I found him confusing and upsetting to watch. He's giving the horse conflicting messages, allowing her to crowd him, and not communicating with her in a way that makes any sense. He talks about not trying to hold and control her head, but he does exactly that. One second he's saying he wants her to not back up when he pinches her nose, and the next second that's exactly what he rewards her for. Then he goes back to the original intention? His attempts to move her around him were a muddled and confusing mess. He's not giving her clear messages or a chance to do the right thing. The timing of his releases are inconsistent. If I were that horse, I'd be resentful and disobedient because he's not giving her the tools TO obey. Compare that to:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Not sure if I really like the second video either. 
Sure, there are times you let ahrose walk behind you, teach him to stay back, but that position is still not basic safe hrose handling, as taught by grass root organizations like 4H\ Having a horse lead, walking beside you, having his head a your shoulder, does not mean you don't teach that horse to stay out of your space, same as when walking behind you, so his rationale is incorrect
Having a horse walk beside you.not crowding you, not trying to rush ahead, or lag behind, on a loose lead shank, is safer then having the horse follow behind, where you can't see him, and where he can spook ahead and run over you
If you ever show that horse in hand, either at halter, or in showmanship, that horse leads beside you, as in this video

Esp.leading down along a road, that horse belongs up at your shoulder, not behind you< JMO


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Smilie said:


> Not sure if I really like the second video either.
> Sure, there are times you let ahrose walk behind you, teach him to stay back, but that position is still not basic safe hrose handling, as taught by grass root organizations like 4H\ Having a horse lead, walking beside you, having his head a your shoulder, does not mean you don't teach that horse to stay out of your space, same as when walking behind you, so his rationale is incorrect
> Having a horse walk beside you.not crowding you, not trying to rush ahead, or lag behind, on a loose lead shank, is safer then having the horse follow behind, where you can't see him, and where he can spook ahead and run over you
> If you ever show that horse in hand, either at halter, or in showmanship, that horse leads beside you, as in this video
> ...


Agree with you there. I like them to my right, with their head about at my shoulder. I do like how clear and concise he is, though, in comparison the the previous video. And that method can easily be modified for leading beside instead of behind. Mainly shared it to show that respectful leading can be taught without micromanaging and confusing the horse, or grabbing it by the face and some of the other confusing weirdness in the other vid.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Before I figured out how to lead her well, with her listening and not arguing and staying calm on a loose lead, I never would have believed how important position is. If she gets too far ahead or too much behind it simply doesn't work. When I feel her breath on my hand or forearm she leads well. Any higher means she's paying attention to something else, lower means she's trying to snatch a bite.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I've noticed that horses clearly taught to lead behind are very easy to get to lead up beside your shoulder if you ask them to, but they don't get pushy and disrespectful there if taught to lead behind FIRST. Plus, I want the horse to lead where I put him. If I want him behind me, he'd better stay back there. This comes in handy on narrow trails, where you may not have the option of the horse up beside your shoulder but also want a horse who won't run you over when you stop to figure out where to stop on a shale slide.... I can also take one of my horses into a halter class and he'll do what I ask on a loose shank without specifically training it. Horses taught to lead behind can be led from the right, from the left, next to you, behind, with four other horses, pony off another horse, and do well in a pack string. All of those can be problematic if you only teach your horses to lead next to your shoulder. 

Far too many people let the horse lead them when up beside the shoulder. In 30 years of having my horses behind me, I've yet to have one run me over. It's now become my preference, and that very simple change makes ALL the difference for people who are having respect issues with their horses, and I suspect that's why all of the clinicians teach it. If there's one thing you change to make a difference in your horse's mindset, that's it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, yes, when on narrow trails, I lead a horse behind me, and I also lead a pack horse behind my horse in those cases.
Respect is respect, and the converse is also true. If a horse learns to respect your space, leading beside you, they will also respect it when led behind you
When I pony a young horse, it is led so that the head of that horse is up beside that shoulder of my pony horse, not behind, esp when I used to long trot yearlings, in the ditch, along a busy highway!
4H breaks down safe horse handling in a more ABC method, and not on that child, able to read a hrose, enforce body language. Thus the teaching of the quarters, and having a horse lead beside you with respect
We, experienced with horses, deviate from that, as we can read that horse,better, thus enforce respect of space, but, basic safe horse handling, that should be taught, at the grass root level, remains having the horse lead beside you, and why that is taught in 4H
Certainly, when I hand bred stallions, that sud was up beside me, not behind!
if someone lets the horse lead them, when led beside them, they are doing it incorrectly, same as a person leading a horse behind them, allows that horse to run over them, when spooked
You can't take correct application of one method, and compare it to an incorrect method of the other!
Would you encourage a young child, to lead a horse behind them? 
Obviously, if you never show stallions and other horses in hand, then just teaching the horse to lead behind you, would work
It is not as if I don't lead my horses behind me, out of the pasture, out on atrial, or in other situations where that works best, BUT they are also taught to lead beside me, with respect, and that means the hrose does not crowd you, does not get in front of you, does not lag behind, but walks, trots whatever, on a loose shank, beside you, while respecting your space
I would certainly not lead a young horse, at Spruce Meadows, in between expensive cars, behind me, on the way to that booth!
Race horses are poned to that starting gate, up beside that pony horse for a reason!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

So now I'm back to trying to ride her, guess I need to be patient and be back to square one. It's been about a month, I guess, since the last time I rode her. 

I tacked her up and walked her around a bit and then got on, in the yard. It didn't take long for her to rear on me again - pretty high. I moved her in some circles and fought with her a while then just sat on her. Hubby suggested I lead her on a long walk down the road, tacked up, because she was fighting the bit. So I did that and once she got used to the bit again we came back and I brought her into the round pen, where she's never gives me any trouble, and rode her around in there. 

I guess maybe I'll keep riding her in the round pen and then just go a couple feet out the gate and back in again and go a little further every day like we did when she was learning to let me lead her to Nicole's.

This is going to take some time.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

elkdog said:


> I have a gelding that just turned 3 in May. Last year I put a pack saddle on him and he had the extremely important job of toilet paper holder. If you think it's unimportant, find yourself without while on the trail! He took his job serious.
> 
> This year I decided it's time to ride him. His name is "Witko" (it means crazy in Lakota) and he lives up to it! We started in the corral and all went well. He was turning both ways well, going forward and backward, stopping nice and would stand. So last week I decided to take him out in the field. We went around the field a couple of times and he stopped in front of the gate. So I figured "why not?" I thought we would ride up to the horse trailer parked at the end of the driveway. We got to the trailer and he walked right by it! So I had him turn right and down the road we went. About a mile, or so. It was like he was born to do it. This guy will surpass his half sister in no time. She's been my main saddle horse since I retired their mom.
> 
> On our way home for some reason I was thinking of you @newtrailriders hoping you were safe and making progress.


Thank you for thinking about me, that makes me feel good!


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Since Hubby is watching, could he take a video?

It may help some of those experienced to see what is going on. Then go on to give you some fresh valuable tips and ideas. Especially on how to prevent her from getting into position to rear. Sort of interrupting the process.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Be careful. As you most likely know, while a rear is pretty easy to sit, it is also one of the most dangerous things a horse can do, based on what can happen if she goes over backwards.
Unfortunately, if not nipped in the bud, rearing under saddle can just become a default, whenever the horse balks
Yes, a video would be helpful. 
Since you know she ups the anti, when she balks, by rearing, you have to be very aware as to when she starts to stall out, and keep that forward, boot her hips around, and make that rearing have negative consequences.
Most of all, your safty comes first!


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Ugh. A video will show how fat I am, and probably all sorts of things I'm doing wrong - which would be good, but embarrassing. Next time I decide to push the envelope I will take you up on your kind offers, though. Thank you.

I'd rather avoid it happening again though and I'm wondering if throwing some something heavier than me on her saddle and leading her around might help?


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Our farrier had a big fall picnic today and everybody brought their horses for trail rides. He said I should bring Ona and he could take her out on a trail ride and then she'd be nice and calm so I could go out on her. He did that for five people and the only horse he wasn't successful with was Ona. He took her down to the creek and forced her to ride through the water then rode her back and got off and tied her. He wasn't able to get her to behave so he didn't even take her out on a trail ride. Everybody was watching and now she's known as "the crazy horse with the evil glass eyes," because of her rearing and pale blue eyes.

Everybody there said the same thing. "Send her for 30 days with the Amish."

He's bringing a load of hay out to the Amish soon and when he's there he'll talk to them, and if they agree to do it we'll bring her out there together. Several of the people at the picnic have sent their problem horses to them for 30 days and they say they come back nice and broke. They ride them and buggy them for 8-10 hours per day.

Maybe she'll come back broke and maybe I'll be looking for a nice older half arab.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Just want to mention that I met several of the horses that have gone there to be trained, and the buggy horse they were using today just got back from there recently. Very nice, calm horse, well nourished and in good shape with no evidence of abuse. There was a family there who left the Amish, and their kids used him to give buggy rides all day.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Thank you AGAIN, Smiley! You've been so helpful. 

What does the guy in the first video mean by making him "come into the bit?" I hear people say that all the time, does it just mean bending at the pole when you apply a little pressure on the bit, instead of fighting it? The relationship between the bit and rearing confuses me. The farrier was talking about it too and I don't get it because there's no pressure on the bit when she's asked to go forward, but that's when she rears. 

Pat Parelli was saying exactly opposite of what my farrier said - I was using a snaffle and no tie-down, and she was rearing on me all the time. My farrier used a shank bit and a tie down to stop her from rearing! His shank bit had a big brass ball on it that she kept playing with, wiith her tongue, and that's why he used it. He said something about her playing with it and it heating up in her mouth? I don't know what he meant but she definitely seemed to like that bit better. He said she has a very soft mouth. She couldn't rear on him with the tie-down on, but he didn't give her much of an opportunity to try, either. He gently used the spurs and made her go forward every time she balked and considered rearing. She got in the habit of rearing for me and that's the first thing she tried when he got on her. She couldn't do it with the tie-down but I guess if he let her keep trying she'd have found a way to make things real bad real fast.

There has been something something simple I'm not getting, and I think maybe that Parelli video pointed it out for me. The part where he says the horse would be relaxing if the kid wasn't on him, but when the kid gets on the horse gets all tense and thinks he has to go.....made something click. I think I just need to calm down and let Ona learn to relax while I'm on her. She stays relaxed in the work area when I'm on her and only tenses up when we leave the work area so I think I'll just ride her around in the work area and then through the gate then back into the work area a few times, get her to relax.

I wish that horse would have tried to rear a few times in the Parelli video so I could have seen how he would told the kid to react.

I may have to put the spurs on and gently spur her forward when she tries to rear, but do everything I can to let her stay relaxed and not get her to the rearing point. Just calm her down and get her in the habit of not rearing and hopefully we can gently move past this without me getting tense.

I haven't been doing anything at all with her lately besides catching her and feeding her. I've been feeling lazy and guilty about that, because it seems like I ought to be out there trying, but I don't want to try again until I know how to do it without making things worse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horses do rear for different reasons, and Ona has learned to rear, as a form of balking, and not like a horse that wants to go, is held back by the bit, and then goes up, as that is the only place left for that horse to go.
Thus Ona is rearing whenever you are asking her to go where she rather would not.
On a horse like that, you have to feel when she first starts to stall out, before she plants herself, and either boot her forward, or kick those hips around
The point of a horse giving to a bit, as a basic for fixing rearing, is more in the case of a horse that wants to go, and when the rider tries to hold that horse back with bit pressure, goes up.
Tiedowns can prevent a horse from going up high, but you are not fixing the rearing in itself
Plus, take that tiedown off, as you should for trail riding esp, and the horse will resort to rearing again, as the issue was not really fixed


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

perhaps this article will help.
Note, that no trainer worth his salt, says just to stick a curb bit in the mouth and put a tie down on. That is a temporary band aid at best.

Tips for Stopping that Rearing | Ride Magazine


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## Lylly (Aug 11, 2014)

SteadyOn said:


> I tried watching this video but I found him confusing and upsetting to watch. He's giving the horse conflicting messages, allowing her to crowd him, and not communicating with her in a way that makes any sense. He talks about not trying to hold and control her head, but he does exactly that. One second he's saying he wants her to not back up when he pinches her nose, and the next second that's exactly what he rewards her for. Then he goes back to the original intention? His attempts to move her around him were a muddled and confusing mess. He's not giving her clear messages or a chance to do the right thing. The timing of his releases are inconsistent. If I were that horse, I'd be resentful and disobedient because he's not giving her the tools TO obey. Compare that to:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1kl2iIpWqg&t=348s


Warwick is amazing. have you looked at Colorado Reins man Sean Davies ? he is also amazing. yes the guy in the video I posted isn't the best but I still learnt a lot from him, like for instance the part about staying in there spot and not pushing on you.


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## Lylly (Aug 11, 2014)

elkdog said:


> I had an adventure with a buddy sour mule a few years ago. We went to Lewiston to chase cows in one spring. It is some of the finest riding in the world. If the ground was any steeper, a horse just wouldn't stick to it. It takes 2 or three healthy horses a day, they just play out.
> About the 3rd day I rode down to the ranch to get another horse. Mine was worn out, in fact all of mine were looking pretty tired. So I caught the mule. She had packed in with us and seemed pretty easy going. I saddled her up and off we went to chase cows. This was one of the most miserable rides I've ever had. She was braying, balking, wouldn't go with spurs sticking out both sides of her. We finally went about a mile up to the trail I wanted to go up and I just had to give up. I was peddling the whole way. She had a miserable plow rein so I took her back and traded her for one of mine, and off we went.
> That night we were sitting around the cabin, eating beans and passin' gas. Talking about the days adventure. I started telling about my mule adventure and the owner just started laughing. It turns out I was the first person to ever fork her. That's right she had NEVER been ridden. She was a pack mule.
> She actually did pretty good for her first ride.



Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha :dance-smiley05: that poor mule had no idea (snort)


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

newtrailriders, I'm going to post this story here for you. Looking back over your most recent comments in this thread, I think it might be worth watching and thinking over to see if there's any way to apply the lesson.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, you can try that, as it is just an application of making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.
In the end, the horse did not really win, but rather found doing his own thing had negative results.
Turning right and heading home, in the mind of the horse, equaled rest, so the horse merely balked, asked to turn left, going tot he next village. 
Once he found out doing so, got him more work, not end of work session, he found riding on to the next village, turning left as asked to, being the easier choice
You could try letting your horse go home, the minute she looses that forward, even before she rears, and working the crap out of her back home ,rinse and repeat.
This might work, as she is rearing as a form of balking, and not becuase she is being held back when she wants to go


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