# The Logistics of Running a Horse-Drawn Business



## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

OOPS!

Third Shift Team
CB3S01 - Right
CA3S02 - Left

Correction

Third Shift Team
CB3S01 - Right
C*B*3S02 - Left


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Your horses would do much better with turnout instead of being stabled. Feeding schedules can be arranged so the horses are sharing space. You want tie stalls not box stalls. Plan on the off teams being out in a far pasture(s) and the am and pm team in the near pastures overnight, switching off from the holding pen. Pull the am team in to feed, groom and harness. The process should take enough time to allow for digestion of any pelleted feed. As there are 7 horses per team (two teams) a crew of 2 to 4 would be all you need and would give the horses the time they need. The spares can be fed, groomed and left with feed during the shift. I'd rotate the spares into the teams so they are working as well. Same goes for the carriage horses. You'd really just need two barns, 2 holding areas, 4 near pastures and 4 far pastures. They should be big enough to be cross fenced for rotational grazing. All areas should have a place to put out hay when needed or if necessary and the holding pens will be dry lots so will need hay at all times. You would want 32 tie stalls for the stage barn (stage and support together) and a smaller barn if you feel you have to have two barns with 12 to cover the carriages. You need a separate hay barn. I'd have a harness room for each the stage and carriage horses in the barn with each horse having a designated space for their harness/halters and leads. You want a wash rack and space for trimming/doctoring under cover with a couple of sets of stocks. There should also be a feed room and cabinets for grooming supplies handy. The horses should have hay in front of them while waiting for their turn and once harnessed (bridle hung on hames) waiting to be hitched. Those waiting can be munching. Once they are off and working you can have your crew clean the barn and set out feed for the next shift then start all over. You will want a couple of box stalls in case someone needs to be stalled due to injury and an isolation area if illness that is contagious occurs. Have you thought about out riders? Really your stage should have parts and such on it with a team of drivers capable of simple maintenance and not a separate crew following. That should be held in reserve and sent out as needed. They can also be rotated into team so they are working consistently. When the shift is done you bring those going off duty in and unharness, groom and turn out for hay. Pull the ready pm team out and hitch. At the end of the day all can be fed and then pastured. The teams that are off in the far pastures can have a covered area with designated feeding spots and fed am and pm. These would be in areas fenced off from the pasture but have an alley or open space to bring them into as they head into their space for meals. Each barn can have a crew and that crew will feed the outlying horses. I'd say you want a morning and afternoon crew plus a manager for each side (stage and carriage).


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Your horses would do much better with turnout instead of being stabled. Feeding schedules can be arranged so the horses are sharing space. You want tie stalls not box stalls. Plan on the off teams being out in a far pasture(s) and the am and pm team in the near pastures overnight, switching off from the holding pen. Pull the am team in to feed, groom and harness. The process should take enough time to allow for digestion of any pelleted feed. As there are 7 horses per team (two teams) a crew of 2 to 4 would be all you need and would give the horses the time they need. The spares can be fed, groomed and left with feed during the shift. I'd rotate the spares into the teams so they are working as well. Same goes for the carriage horses. You'd really just need two barns, 2 holding areas, 4 near pastures and 4 far pastures. They should be big enough to be cross fenced for rotational grazing. All areas should have a place to put out hay when needed or if necessary and the holding pens will be dry lots so will need hay at all times. You would want 32 tie stalls for the stage barn (stage and support together) and a smaller barn if you feel you have to have two barns with 12 to cover the carriages. You need a separate hay barn. I'd have a harness room for each the stage and carriage horses in the barn with each horse having a designated space for their harness/halters and leads. You want a wash rack and space for trimming/doctoring under cover with a couple of sets of stocks. There should also be a feed room and cabinets for grooming supplies handy. The horses should have hay in front of them while waiting for their turn and once harnessed (bridle hung on hames) waiting to be hitched. Those waiting can be munching. Once they are off and working you can have your crew clean the barn and set out feed for the next shift then start all over. You will want a couple of box stalls in case someone needs to be stalled due to injury and an isolation area if illness that is contagious occurs. Have you thought about out riders? Really your stage should have parts and such on it with a team of drivers capable of simple maintenance and not a separate crew following. That should be held in reserve and sent out as needed. They can also be rotated into team so they are working consistently. When the shift is done you bring those going off duty in and unharness, groom and turn out for hay. Pull the ready pm team out and hitch. At the end of the day all can be fed and then pastured. The teams that are off in the far pastures can have a covered area with designated feeding spots and fed am and pm. These would be in areas fenced off from the pasture but have an alley or open space to bring them into as they head into their space for meals. Each barn can have a crew and that crew will feed the outlying horses. I'd say you want a morning and afternoon crew plus a manager for each side (stage and carriage).


Wow!!

It all sounds like rocket science. I think the idea of having all those stables and corrals is to keep teams together and organized. His holding pen is temporarily to keep a team there while a corral is being repaired maybe. All those corrals are to make culling the animals easy. I guess I think of organizing work animals like soldiers in military units into barracks. Ranks, platoons, divisions and so forth. Mr. Groves doesn't have any pasture room unless he leases it from other land owners. His horses would therefore have a strict diet of hay and Purina horse chow maybe as well as a salt lick and water. A carrot and apple here and there for treats. Mr. Groves will need to hire so many stable boys as well for grooming, bathing, feeding and stable clean-up.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

All those barns take up valuable space. The horses need turn out for their mental health. They are not robots. You also have to maintain all of those separate barns and your profitability goes way down if you have people hired that can't multitask. Same for the horses. Not rocket science just good scheduling and management skills (time and otherwise). Holding pen and corral are the same. I fed up to 20 horses a day. At least 12 were handled on a daily basis though usually only 6 - 8 were worked. 4 that were doing the actual hitch work and two in training. I had this plus my day job. A good groom can handle feeding, grooming, hitching and minor veterinary care of several horses. They can also clean up after the horses. They should be able to file a rough hoof or pull shoes if needed in a pinch. On the road the rule was one extra person for number of horses but that was for safety reasons as our horses were on display and engaging in public activities (those tours or parades - think Ft Worth Stock Show, Circus Parades and Mardi Gras along with historic farming demonstrations and horse shows) where people expected to be able to interact with the horses, petting them and taking photos. It could have been done with fewer people but that was the way the owner wanted it. It was very expensive to do it that way. It sounds like all of your work is going to be done in places off limits to the public and the hitched vehicle will be ready to load and go limiting time for interaction. Depending on your loading area two people - one to help guests load and one to head the team and restrict the public access to the horses would be helpful. I'd only load one vehicle at a time so these two can earn their paycheck.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> All those barns take up valuable space. The horses need turn out for their mental health. They are not robots. You also have to maintain all of those separate barns and your profitability goes way down if you have people hired that can't multitask. Same for the horses. Not rocket science just good scheduling and management skills (time and otherwise). Holding pen and corral are the same. I fed up to 20 horses a day. At least 12 were handled on a daily basis though usually only 6 - 8 were worked. 4 that were doing the actual hitch work and two in training. I had this plus my day job. A good groom can handle feeding, grooming, hitching and minor veterinary care of several horses. They can also clean up after the horses. They should be able to file a rough hoof or pull shoes if needed in a pinch. On the road the rule was one extra person for number of horses but that was for safety reasons as our horses were on display and engaging in public activities (those tours or parades - think Ft Worth Stock Show, Circus Parades and Mardi Gras along with historic farming demonstrations and horse shows) where people expected to be able to interact with the horses, petting them and taking photos. It could have been done with fewer people but that was the way the owner wanted it. It was very expensive to do it that way. It sounds like all of your work is going to be done in places off limits to the public and the hitched vehicle will be ready to load and go limiting time for interaction. Depending on your loading area two people - one to help guests load and one to head the team and restrict the public access to the horses would be helpful. I'd only load one vehicle at a time so these two can earn their paycheck.


Well, my "horse business" is all imaginary for fun on my train layout world. The horses are kept at the Groves Homestead spread in the pine forest about 2.50 miles away from the Groves Campground. People get on board the stagecoaches at the camp master's trailer on the campground. A station wagon shuttles passengers from the train station to the campground to get on board the coaches. Drummond Lake where carriage rides are offered is also about 2.50 miles from the horse's home stables. You see, the horse vehicles are hitched at the Groves home and driven to there place of business to pick up customers for rides. There is no fuss in loading them up onto trailers. The horse wagons commute by "horse power" to their job sites. 

No, people won't likely spend much time interacting with the horses except at the short 5-minute rest stops along the trips. By BARNS I guess you mean the buildings I call STABLES. Don't the horses need some kind of shelter? 

This company has 86 horses total in theory. If they are all lumped together in one enclosure they will be the devil to identity in a hurry when it comes time to hitch them to the wagons. Groves' horses will have much more room in their one-half to one-acre corrals (or fenced-in areas) than those poor New York carriage horses that have no outdoor space at all. I use 3-bar wooden fence and not barbed wire for horse enclosures.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Your minimum sq foot for each barn (and this is just off the top of my head) would be 3600 sqft. Most likely more the way you are setting it up. Each barn also has to have buffer space plus the corrals so lets say 5 acres for each and that is 50 acres right there tied up in space that most could be used for larger pasture areas. Then you have to worry about manure coverage in that small space and that won't work with that many animals. You still need a barn for hay storage and a barn for equipment storage. Paths (wide) going from each to the other. Does he own the interior of that 5 mile loop. There is upwards of what 500 acres? Then there is a loop around the lake that would be about 100 acres. Unless the lake covers that entire area there could be usable land there. Plenty of ways to make it work.

ETA No they don't. It is nice to have but not necessary. Because this is a business you would want it as it makes it miserable for the PEOPLE working if they don't have cover and nicer for the horses if there is shade and fans to start their work day. It keeps everything in one place and things much cleaner and neater. For years where I worked we had all the horses out and harness was kept in the trailer next to the covered car port on the house. I harnessed under there and then ground drove to what ever vehicle was being hitched to. PITA but you do what you can with what you are given to work with.

It takes more than 5 minutes to load and unload your passengers. Rest stops of 5 minutes would basically mean staying in place and letting the horses breathe. Rest stops for the passengers benefit would need to be longer. 

Sounds similar to Disney.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

They don't need grazing pasture as they are all fed hay and feed. Wheelbarrows are constantly on duty for picking up their dung. The horses can be given light exercises by having German shepherd dogs working them on their days off from the harnesses and traces. I watch Lassie reruns all the time.

Sounds like Disney? I rode on the horse-drawn streetcar there.

Yes, I am inspired by the stagecoach rides given at Knott's Berry Farm and pony rides given at zoos. 

The horse business should be run as efficiently as possible under the KISS principle. 

Theoretically, old Mr. Groves does not own the public roads, county space trails and streets he runs his horse wagons on. He may own 50 acres of land at most to be home to his carriage fleet and livestock. He has a permit or license from the county involved to run his business. He might have to pay a tax or fee to use public lands for his horse wagon ride operations.

I knew a woman next door who had a riding horse in a corral no larger than 1/4 acre with a tiny barn.This animal was never put in the pasture. Just hay and horse chow fed. This mare lived 20 or more years.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

"This company has 86 horses total in theory. If they are all lumped together in one enclosure they will be the devil to identity in a hurry when it comes time to hitch them to the wagons. Groves' horses will have much more room in their one-half to one-acre corrals (or fenced-in areas) than those poor New York carriage horses that have no outdoor space at all. I use 3-bar wooden fence and not barbed wire for horse enclosures."

No they won't as you can assign space by team as you have it set out. You can even have designated tack rooms for each set of horses and keep it to two barns - one for the carriage set and one for the stage set. But how many horses are you cramming in that 1/2 to 1 acre pen? They NEED room to be horses on their time off. Those N.Y. horses spend their time off away from the city and are trailered in from whatever farm houses them in their off time. A friend leases 100 acres of his farm for the mules used in the French Quarter. They are constantly being rotated and each animal has 6 months off and 6 moths working. I think they work 4 days on and 3 days off which they are brought to a smaller farm that is much closer for turn out. Those animals are treated well. Granted the number of days on they are confined but if you don't HAVE to do that then don't. It is much better for your animals if you don't.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Had something in the oven. Sounds like a lovely place even though it is imaginary.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> "This company has 86 horses total in theory. If they are all lumped together in one enclosure they will be the devil to identity in a hurry when it comes time to hitch them to the wagons. Groves' horses will have much more room in their one-half to one-acre corrals (or fenced-in areas) than those poor New York carriage horses that have no outdoor space at all. I use 3-bar wooden fence and not barbed wire for horse enclosures."
> 
> No they won't as you can assign space by team as you have it set out. You can even have designated tack rooms for each set of horses and keep it to two barns - one for the carriage set and one for the stage set. But how many horses are you cramming in that 1/2 to 1 acre pen? They NEED room to be horses on their time off. Those N.Y. horses spend their time off away from the city and are trailered in from whatever farm houses them in their off time. A friend leases 100 acres of his farm for the mules used in the French Quarter. They are constantly being rotated and each animal has 6 months off and 6 moths working. I think they work 4 days on and 3 days off which they are brought to a smaller farm that is much closer for turn out. Those animals are treated well. Granted the number of days on they are confined but if you don't HAVE to do that then don't. It is much better for your animals if you don't.



Well, for the purpose of my railroad simulator, the only barn content offered for horses is a stable with ten box stalls. The horse figures in the corrals also have saddles, blankets and bridles on them too. Of course any live real-world horses would not be wearing any tack in their home pens or in the pastures. Mr. Groves could own theoretical pasture that is not exhibited on the train layout for letting the horses chill out on their time off. We just have to use our imaginations and assume he has the proper space for keeping all these horses righteously!! :cowboy:

I will have to post pictures of my horse stable setup.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

jonbailey said:


> Well, for the purpose of my railroad simulator, the only barn content offered for horses is a stable with ten box stalls. The horse figures in the corrals also have saddles, blankets and bridles on them too. Of course any live real-world horses would not be wearing any tack in their home pens or in the pastures. Mr. Groves could own theoretical pasture that is not exhibited on the train layout for letting the horses chill out on their time off. We just have to use our imaginations and assume he has the proper space for keeping all these horses righteously!! :cowboy:
> 
> I will have to post pictures of my horse stable setup.


*As a matter of fact, I just added a 3-bar fence along the back wall of the train building (behind Groves' stables) with open double farm gates and a sign on it labeled "50 Acre Pasture". There is a man in a cowboy hat, a local hired hand, on a horse with a Shepherd working dog driving a small set of horses out into this implied pasture from one of the stables, which is empty with an open gate implying the horses there were just moved to pasture. 
*


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

A good many of those horses would consider Lassie a nuisance and that harassment deserving of a set of hooves to the head. And yes, this is only imaginary but the fun is in putting it together and understanding that there is a real world. Sure they could live off hay and horse chow and never see a blade of grass but that is not in the best interest of any horse. I know a friend of a friend that runs a riding stable. She has 16 horses on 3 acres. They all have hay and pellets as they is no grass anywhere to be found. The horses are crammed together in small pens as she also has a covered riding arena and house on this acreage. I went to see my friend's horse that was boarded there. They were all a miserable lot. Contrast that to where my child rides with 18 horses, 20 acres (1 barn and outdoor dressage arena, a riding ring and jumps in the pastures). This lady also leases an additional 20 acres (on a 100 acre spread) that has a covered arena where she can ride during inclement weather. The horses are walked over and tack is carried in a vehicle. The horses only come in to eat am and pm. Otherwise they are out being horses if they are not being ridden. Every afternoon the lady gathers the horses and ties them to rails so they are there when the beginners get there to ride. Advanced students have to go get their own. Guess which horses are happy, fit, eager to work and rarely have issues with colic, ulcers, injury or other illnesses? 

I love Disney. We stay at Fort Wilderness (the campground) where the barns are for several of their working horses. They offer rides around that entire area. The night rides where they bring you to the best spot to view the fireworks is my favorite. 

Don't know why this never posted. Looking forward to pictures! Enjoy your railway. I have a friend that does the same. Drives his wife nuts but I'm used to it as an uncle had a several layer set up in his basement.


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## TMJon (Jun 21, 2018)

The people obviously love their horses, so why not start a business that provides the owner with a bespoke oil painting of their horse?

Take some pictures of the horse, let the owner pick the best one, send the jpeg to a Chinese artist, pay $100, get a hand painted picture back, frame it and sell it to the horse owner for £500.

TMJon


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