# Swapping leads behind



## farrieremily (Jul 8, 2018)

My daughter is learning on a retired hunter and having a hard time at the canter. 

Our mare will pick up the correct lead and after a few strides she begins swapping to a counter canter. She maintains the correct lead in front and proceeds to switch behind every couple strides. 

My suspicion is my daughter’s seat isn’t as balanced and she is inadvertently asking for the change. 
I never reached that stage in my own riding so I’m not 100% certain how to help. 

We are doing balance work. Her legs are nice and still. The horse will maintain the correct lead all around on a lunge line. 

I’m hoping for a combination of my daughter improving and Frenchie learning to what she wants and to ignore her miscues. 

Any advice for helping the two get in sync?
An explanation of how she’s asking for the change so we know what to work on correcting?

Really any advice at all getting a small child cantering a huge 17.3 horse!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Cross firing is usually associated with poor balance and muscle if there’s no underlying condition that makes the horse struggle to follow the line of the track with the line of the body. In both I would expect to see the same thing happening on the lunge, without a rider.
With that, I’m thinking that there could be some rider error involved that’s probably relating to a small rider struggling to really balance herself on a horse that’s way too big for her..
Look at how she’s positioning her body, look at where her legs are and see if either or both tell you something.

Horses that get tense in canter and start to pull or lean on the hands and brace often cross fire but you arent giving the impression that the horse does that.

If there’s a problem with the spine or sacroiliac that’s affecting the horses ability to follow the line, it might be small enough to not be a problem without a rider but just her light weight could be enough to do it. Always worth getting it ruled out


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Rule out hocks, stifles, si pain first. Cross firing is a common symptom of hind end discomfort. 

How much work is she in? Can also be muscle weakness that needs to be worked on. I'd shes not very fit, a small kid won't be able to hold her together easily.

And differences maitaining the lead when going in different directions or footing?


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## farrieremily (Jul 8, 2018)

My daughter was on her on the lunge line and it wasn’t an issue. 
We’re still going to find a chiropractor. That is what we were trying to find out on the line. 
She’s shown all summer walk trot so she’s not completely out of shape but we’ve only tried cantering in very short sessions. We have decent weather to really work on getting her working a little more now. 

She carries her head low and is heavy on the front end. (We tease that she did Western Pleasure over fences) but she doesn’t lean into the bit. She likes very light contact so we’re also trying to bring her up and rounder and get her on her hind end. But I don’t think that’s really the problem.


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## farrieremily (Jul 8, 2018)

ApuetsoT said:


> Rule out hocks, stifles, si pain first. Cross firing is a common symptom of hind end discomfort.
> 
> How much work is she in? Can also be muscle weakness that needs to be worked on. I'd shes not very fit, a small kid won't be able to hold her together easily.
> 
> And differences maitaining the lead when going in different directions or footing?


Both directions. Footing doesn’t make a difference. 
She canters both leads on her own on our rock hard paddock. So there’s no impact pain. It might be something from adding weight. 
If I can’t find a chiropractor I’ll see what the vet can tell me

I know she needs to get more in shape but it doesn’t seem like trouble maintaining. She’s well coordinated, it looks like a very deliberate switch.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Sometimes, especially with an athletic horse who can swap easily, it's arthritis in the hock. They switch to the more comfortable lead, I have a horse like this but I fixed his issues. He gets hock injections and I make sure I ride him regularly. It took about 3 rides keeping him totally bent to the inside break the habit.


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## farrieremily (Jul 8, 2018)

Thank you all, by the way! Just realized I wasn’t adding that. 
These are all suggestions I will be looking into.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

will horse do this when YOU ride?


I am guessing that on a smaller circle, on the lunge, only the correct lead is able to keep the horse in balance. But on a larger circle, either lead will work, so the horse is sort of flipping around, trying to find whichever feels best. And, if you daughter is gripping up, then the horse is probably sort of trying this and that to get the legs on her side to quiet down.


I suspect that as your daughter gets more comfortable at the canter, this will go away. Don't panic yet.


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## Feathers7 (Jun 11, 2019)

farrieremily said:


> My daughter was on her on the lunge line and it wasn’t an issue.


Experienced hunter, you say? Horse probably knows how to change leads on the fly, and your daughter is asking for them on accident. =) Also, what @*tinyliny* said - what happens when you ride?

My horse did this and it was due to hind-end weakness. Not on a lunge, where she had support, but she'd do it if I chased her away from mischief and she was having fun running around in her pasture. She also had a slight hip imbalance that likely emphasized it. Just confirming what everyone else has been saying.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It could be the horse trying to balance the child. I've seen that happen with horses that are really too large for the rider and the rider can't balance depending on the gait. Even if you think you are seeing balance what the horse feels may be entirely different.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I was inadvertently making the horse do this at a clinic earlier this year. Instead of using mostly inside leg to keep her going in canter, I was using too much outside leg and shoving her quarters over and unbalancing her. (Not something I normally do, but it was my first clinic in decades and I was nervous so my body was being weird!) It could be something as simple as using confusing leg aids to push him on.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Something you can also try is a bute trial. If the swapping goes away by the end of the trial, then you are likely dealing with arthritis. If it doesn't change, it's probably more likely weakness or rider error.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

It could be that the child is accidentally cueing the horse to change, but since it's "on accident" the horse is not in the correct position to do a full flying change and thus only cross fires.


Or.... it could be that under the direction of the rider, lameness problems are manifesting. How old is the horse? Have you ever x-rayed the hocks? My boy Red had numerous lameness issues (although he's not that old) and his weak side is his right lead and he will "fall out" behind at times if I do not ride him correctly to help him hold it. 



I think your best bet is to start with a lameness evaluation to rule out any pain factor and then continue with conditioning of the horse, and lessons for your daughter.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Is that your daughter on the horse in question in the Avatar? How much does your daughter weigh and with a saddle (English? Western?) I am assuming English how far down the side do her legs go. At 17.3 for the horse you have tall, wider even if a narrow horse and big strides. When you say little I am imagining elementary sized school sized rider.


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## farrieremily (Jul 8, 2018)

ApuetsoT said:


> Something you can also try is a bute trial. If the swapping goes away by the end of the trial, then you are likely dealing with arthritis. If it doesn't change, it's probably more likely weakness or rider error.


I may try this, thank you.


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## farrieremily (Jul 8, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Is that your daughter on the horse in question in the Avatar? How much does your daughter weigh and with a saddle (English? Western?) I am assuming English how far down the side do her legs go. At 17.3 for the horse you have tall, wider even if a narrow horse and big strides. When you say little I am imagining elementary sized school sized rider.


That was her several years ago. She’s 11 now and not quite five feet tall yet and Frenchie has lost her extra weight but is still a table. 

It’s probably a combination of things we need to “fix” (possibly pain) and work on (definitely condition and the riders balance)


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## farrieremily (Jul 8, 2018)

I haven’t ridden in a couple years now. Last time I was on her I had no trouble getting a nice gallop on the trails. That’s not the same as asking for a nice schooling canter but she wasn’t goofy about her hind end. 

She definitely needs more conditioning. I guess I’ve just never had a horse out of shape enough to effect their gate. Thinking about it even if she were in shape she’s still a huge heap of horse to lift and support. 

She’s been essentially a pasture ornament for five or six years other than an occasional trail ride then worked walk trot since February this year. So she really hasn’t had to use her back/loins/haunches to support or work hard. 

We’re going to look into pain but start gently and consistently building up her strength again too.


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