# Coughing induced by laying down!



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Some of you may know my 16 yr old Arab gelding Harley has a chronic cough. Only in the winter, and usually only coughs first thing in the morning. Last winter, it got so bad, the vet put him on Dex. This year, I am managing it with natural supplements, but it's slowly getting worse. 

Last night, we put a motion-sensing video camera outside his stall because he has gotten out a couple of times and we're trying to figure out how he's doing it. So I got a really good idea of what he does all night (329 30-second video clips, to be exact!). This led to the discovery that anytime he lays down, he gets up a few minutes later in a big coughing fit. Like full-body coughing, a lot more than what I've been observing in the morning, which was more of a light cough. It happened 3 times, so not a coincidence. He is coughing a lot more at night than during the day, which was a surprise to me. I think it may even be preventing him from getting enough down time (he would only lay down a few minutes before getting back up to cough).

Other relevant info: he had a severe case of pneumonia when he was 8. He does sometimes have thick, whitish mucus, but not all the time. Never coughs in the summer (even though he likes to nap laying down during the day). Coughs more when it's colder outside. The coughing is NOT exacerbated by exercise. I do not believe it is COPD yet (neither does the vet), but want to avoid having it develop into COPD.

The vet has been informed of this and will be coming for a visit. I'm hoping this new information will help him determine the best way to manage this cough. I have tried several herbal supplements which help, but do not clear it up completely. One I haven't tried yet, but that I have on order so will be adding it soon, is spirulina (blue-green algae). I'm also steaming his hay, which again, seems to help some, but not completely. But if anyone has ideas, I'm all ears! Things I could discuss with the vet (who likely is going to suggest Dexamethasone again)....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

What kind of bedding are you using? Have you tried stripping his stall and sweeping it out to keep dust down? It does sound like it's time for the dex again, unfortunately.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> What kind of bedding are you using? Have you tried stripping his stall and sweeping it out to keep dust down? It does sound like it's time for the dex again, unfortunately.


I use pellets. Last winter it was shavings. It doesn't seem to make a difference.

He may well need Dex. It was painful to watch those full-body coughing fits and I worry about his joints if he can't sleep laying down. But if we do the Dex again, I want to have a serious conversation with the vet about long-term effects. We were able to wean him off it last spring though, so he wouldn't need it year round, just during the really cold months. Probably 3-4 months a year.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree with Dream
A horse coughs either because he has an infection or an allergy
The sensitization that is part of the allergic response, does lead to the development of CPOD.
When he is lying down, he will be more intimately exposed to whatever is on that stall floor


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

This will happen in calves that had severe pneumonia - their lungs never fully heal from the disease. When laying down (and cows lay down a lot) the extra pressure of body weight and organs causes the lungs to have to work harder - since they are already compromised the bodies reaction to get more oxygen is to cough.

I do not believe that this is reversible. In cows it causes unthriftiness (harder to gain and keep weight on) 

This is just my experience with calves. We tend to inherit the calves that others would let die- we nurse them back to health and raise them to harvest. We do 4-8 calves per year


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm not sure that this is caused by the bedding, but just in case...

Have you heard of or tried rice hull bedding?
I am just thinking that if it IS the bedding then it must be caused by the scent of the wood (since you first used shavings and now pellets). Unfortunately there are very few dust free options out there that do not contain wood. There is something we have here in the states called 'Carefresh', but it is marketed for small animals in small bags (the small animals cannot take the wood scent, it overloads their little lungs). I think it would be very expensive to try to bed a horse with it.

Some other options I have read of: peat moss and shredded newspaper. I heard that the newspaper can temporarily dye white horses with the print though!

You could also put rubber mats in his stall, and then bed very lightly on top of that with something hypoallergenic.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

horseluvr2524 said:


> I'm not sure that this is caused by the bedding, but just in case...
> 
> Have you heard of or tried rice hull bedding?
> I am just thinking that if it IS the bedding then it must be caused by the scent of the wood (since you first used shavings and now pellets). Unfortunately there are very few dust free options out there that do not contain wood. There is something we have here in the states called 'Carefresh', but it is marketed for small animals in small bags (the small animals cannot take the wood scent, it overloads their little lungs). I think it would be very expensive to try to bed a horse with it.
> ...


I seriously doubt it's the bedding because a) he doesn't cough in the summer (same bedding, much dustier when it's hot and dry), b) his whole stall is made of wood. Even if the bedding wasn't wood-based, wouldn't any exposure to wood do it? c) I already have rubber mats. Last winter, he was boarded in a barn that also had rubber mats and used shavings very sparingly. The stall was stripped every day and swept. He coughed worse there than here. I could try straw, but I think he'd eat it. There are no other bedding options around here. I suppose I could try newspaper, but that would make a heck of a mess! 

I do NOT think it is an allergy to bedding for the simple reason that we use the same bedding year-round, but he ONLY coughs in the cold months. He also has a bit of mucus that sometimes flies out when he coughs. That tells me there is an accumulation of liquid and/or mucus in his lungs and/or respiratory system. I'm inclined to think that it is the act of laying down on his side that causes the mucus to interfere with his breathing. Kind of like trying to sleep with stuffed sinuses, you know? I think there is scar tissue on his lungs. Cold weather seems to make it worse. Laying down obviously exacerbates it (and does so with various kinds of bedding). My question is what are the treatment options?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

carshon said:


> This will happen in calves that had severe pneumonia - their lungs never fully heal from the disease. When laying down (and cows lay down a lot) the extra pressure of body weight and organs causes the lungs to have to work harder - since they are already compromised the bodies reaction to get more oxygen is to cough.
> 
> I do not believe that this is reversible. In cows it causes unthriftiness (harder to gain and keep weight on)
> 
> This is just my experience with calves. We tend to inherit the calves that others would let die- we nurse them back to health and raise them to harvest. We do 4-8 calves per year


This makes sense to me. Except the part about unthriftiness. Harley has no issue gaining - and keeping! - weight on. I'm still hopeful there's something we can do to alleviate it. He's only 16. I want him to live as long as possible. Humans who get pneumonia are also more prone to getting it again and again. I wonder if we shouldn't try a round of antibiotics.


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

Could it be the dry, cold air irritating his lungs? 
If it's not bedding/allergy, not dust and possibly not the pneumonia, then dry air or growth in the lung is all I can think of.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

secuono said:


> Could it be the dry, cold air irritating his lungs?
> If it's not bedding/allergy, not dust and possibly not the pneumonia, then dry air or growth in the lung is all I can think of.


I do think dry, cold air is a trigger. But why does laying down make it considerably worse? 

Far as a growth in the lungs... is that something they could see with a portable X-ray machine? Guess I'll have to discuss it with the vet. If he has to be trailered in, that makes things more complicated (we don't have a trailer), but if it makes a difference in treatment, it might be worth it. However, if treatment is going to be the same no matter what, might as well just go straight to treatment.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I the treatment is Dex, then there is an allergic response that is being repressed, and Thus for the vet to declare there is no issue of CPOD and then use Dex, is rather contradictory , to say the least!

'Treatments

The drugs available are not curative, but there are some that will provide at least temporary relief for the COPD-afflicted horse. Some of the drugs available are bronchodilators, which, true to their name, dilate the bronchial passages so that more air can flow into and out of the lungs. There also are mucolytic drugs (those that dissolve mucus) that can be helpful.

Corticosteroids, such as prednisone and dexamethasone, can be used to provide at least temporary relief.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

This is coming from way out in left field and I have never heard of it in horses BUT I think you have rubber mats in the stall with pelleted bedding over. 
I know people can have latex/rubber allergies, is it possible for a horse to have it???


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Woodhaven said:


> This is coming from way out in left field and I have never heard of it in horses BUT I think you have rubber mats in the stall with pelleted bedding over.
> I know people can have latex/rubber allergies, is it possible for a horse to have it???


That has occurred to me too, so not out in left field  . But once again, if he were allergic to the rubber mats, he would be reacting to them year round, not JUST in the cold months.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I the treatment is Dex, then there is an allergic response that is being repressed, and Thus for the vet to declare there is no issue of CPOD and then use Dex, is rather contradictory , to say the least!


To be precise, the vet has not given a specific diagnosis, since we can't seem to find the cause. Also, every time he has come out, Harley wasn't coughing because it is not consistent, only sporadic. He listened for rasping in the lungs, he did the inflated plastic bag test, found nothing. Did not advise scoping because the coughing is so sporadic. He only suggested Dex after I kept after him about this nagging cough that wouldn't go away. 

The way I see it, COPD is not a black and white diagnosis, but rather a continuum. It's not like you can tell from a blood test that gives a positive or negative result. It's diagnosed from a series of symptoms and the frequency of those symtoms. I believe we discussed this (or maybe it was with someone else) on one of my previous posts about Harley's coughing. He does not meet the criteria for COPD, at least, not yet. But that's only because I've been managing it so carefully. I believe that if I just ignored it, we would be dealing with full-blown COPD. My goal is to prevent that.

Good point about the bronchodilators. Assuming they work for several hours, it would be worth trying one late at night to see if the effects carry through until morning. Will mention to the vet.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

To play devil's advocate, how do you know he isn't reacting in the summer time? Maybe he still has coughing fits from lying down at night, but the warmer weather eases his phlegm production so you don't see daytime coughing...?


On the topic of unthriftiness (I think the idea about pneumonia-based scar tissue in his lungs is very viable), excessive weight gain is a form of unthriftiness in one sense.
I don't know how to explain it without going back to my gelding againnnn, but my gelding has a muscle disorder that, untreated, causes him vast amounts of pain and stress.
Before I knew about the disorder, he regularly was 200-250lbs overweight -maybe even more- while wearing a grazing muzzle 24/7, being turned out 24/7, no supplemental hay, and half a pound of a low-NSC ration balancer per day. He had constant diarrhea and it was pretty clear that he wasn't using his food well.
He showed no signs of his disorder, besides being grumpy and vastly overweight.
After I finally figured his disorder out and started treating it as best I could, he's eating triple the calories he was before just to keep his ribs covered!!

His body is no longer stressed so it's no longer in survival mode. Now that it's out of survival mode, his body is actually using the food as food instead of saving it for "the coming bad time."


Anyway, something like that *might* be going on with Harley. Decreased lung function can cause weight gain in humans, it probably could in horses as well.
hope you get it all figured out!! *hugs*


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## ThoroughbredBug (Jan 18, 2017)

Subbing, may have thoughts later... My gelding has off/on resp. issues as well, and while we have no firm diagnoses, I'm curious to hear about how you're going about Harley's issues. Maybe I'll get some ideas in order to see what's triggering my guys coughing fits. *fingers crossed*


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

When you see your vet ask about providing a humidifier - his lungs could be working harder to process not only the cold air but if it's dry like you say as well. If he produces more mucus in winter then his body might be overcompensating for the coldness/humidity which exacerbates the issue. I know it would be harder to provide heating/humidifier. I used to sleep with the window open in winter, despite the snow & I would get continuous, chronic chest infections because of it. They always felt better once the air was a reasonable temp. It wouldn't matter if my body was boiling, if I was still putting freezing air in my lungs they would hurt. Maybe he's more sensitive than your average horse because of this. 

Either way you sound like a really nice person and I hope you get this figured out. I can't imagine how it was watching him suffer through the night :< 


Best wishes x


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Ok, hear me out because this is stupid, lol

I get on some pretty bad night time coughing jags. It is not from allergies. The cough, for reasons I don't get, are generated in my esophagus. I can feel it.

Also for reasons I don't get, if I take four 150mg Ranitidine, things seem to open up and the cough goes away.

Ranitidine is also an acid reducer. I used to give Streeter (16) 150 mg tablets twice daily. Streeter never coughed but he did have ulcer issues. The Ranitidine worked for a short period but I eventually always had to buy Omeprazole from the vet.

*My point is this:*. Maybe Harley needs something to relax his esophagus when he is laying down. I don't know, it's a wild-out-in-left-field theory but you have tried everything else. Maybe a bronchodilator isn't quite the right thing.

And FWIW, when I was five, I did have bronchitis that went into pneumonia, that went into rheumatic fever. I never seemed to have any lung damage. This coughing thing didn't show up until I was in my late 50's. It could be there was not enough scarring to cause problems until I got older with a weaker immune system.

If you want to try the Ranitidine, the formula is 2.74 mg per POUND. Yes, that's a lot. You could try it for a couple of days and if it helps, maybe find something the same but cheaper.

I wish I had something more sensible. If I can remember when Joker's chiro comes to work on him next month, I'm going to ask her what she thinks. She is going for her masters in a form of Eastern medicine and she has taken Dr. xie's herbal course.

There IS somwthing out there but it's apparent it isn't anything normal that we are all familiar with.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Wallaby said:


> To play devil's advocate, how do you know he isn't reacting in the summer time? Maybe he still has coughing fits from lying down at night, but the warmer weather eases his phlegm production so you don't see daytime coughing...?
> 
> 
> On the topic of unthriftiness (I think the idea about pneumonia-based scar tissue in his lungs is very viable), excessive weight gain is a form of unthriftiness in one sense.
> ...


Hmmmm.... valid point about the possibility that he coughs in the summer too, but only at night. I have a feeling I am going to be viewing a LOT of video for the next while. I'm actually glad we did this, because we now have new information to share with the vet. I can only hope it will get us a little closer to finding a solution! But I find it hard to believe that I would NEVER hear him cough at all in the summer. We got up pretty darned early to go to shows and he wasn't coughing. In the winter, he coughs occasionally during the day, so I would assume I would hear the odd cough in the summer as well. Hard to say though...

How did you figure out it was a muscle disorder? Wouldn't he have shown symptoms of pain when being worked? While Harley doesn't like the girth tightened, he seems to enjoy being ridden and loves to canter and jump. I wouldn't say he gets fat on air, but he sure does love to eat! We have to limit him because he's small-boned and only 14.2hh. He eats hay cubes twice a day and about half a square bale of hay. About the same as my mare, who is also pretty dainty, but one inch taller. He does tend to have runny stool though, which is something else I'm grappling with. How did you diagnose your gelding with the muscle disorder? What kinds of tests does that require?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> Ok, hear me out because this is stupid, lol
> 
> I get on some pretty bad night time coughing jags. It is not from allergies. The cough, for reasons I don't get, are generated in my esophagus. I can feel it.
> 
> ...


That would be so, so nice of you walk! Would love to hear what she thinks! I am still looking for someone in my area who Eastern medicine on horses. Not having much luck. Even our vets are not really equine vets - they're large animal vets. They work for the Dept. of Agriculture. I like our vet, but he treats a wide variety of animals. There are no other options around here. 

As for the Ranitidine, it might be worth a shot! So are you thinking some kind of acid reflux? That may not be as crazy as you think... though again, why not in the summer? Why only when it's cold out? I will research it some more...


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Kalraii said:


> When you see your vet ask about providing a humidifier - his lungs could be working harder to process not only the cold air but if it's dry like you say as well. If he produces more mucus in winter then his body might be overcompensating for the coldness/humidity which exacerbates the issue. I know it would be harder to provide heating/humidifier. I used to sleep with the window open in winter, despite the snow & I would get continuous, chronic chest infections because of it. They always felt better once the air was a reasonable temp. It wouldn't matter if my body was boiling, if I was still putting freezing air in my lungs they would hurt. Maybe he's more sensitive than your average horse because of this.
> 
> Either way you sound like a really nice person and I hope you get this figured out. I can't imagine how it was watching him suffer through the night :<
> 
> ...


Very kind of you Kalraii.  I can try a humidifier. I have one to steam his hay. But I'd be adding humidity to the whole barn, not just his stall, and I worry about growing mold and just making things worse. But it's something I can consider... the more options you kind folks throw out, the more things I can discuss with my vet.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I found this on Stable cough

;Stable Cough:

This is one of the most common coughs. Horses at rest, normally in the stable or barn. It can be brought on, or made worse by eating, drinking, lying down or during sweeping. It can come and go with the changes of the seasons.

A dry cough with a wheezing cough, which can last for a couple of minutes each time. It will be considered chronic if it has been on going for 4 weeks. There may or may not be any changes in nasal discharge or elevated respiratory rate.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is avery good article on different coughs in horses, from Equus Magazine, that might help shed some light, or at least, a place to start and eliminate stuff

How Bad is Your Horse's Cough? | EQUUS Magazine


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Here is avery good article on different coughs in horses, from Equus Magazine, that might help shed some light, or at least, a place to start and eliminate stuff
> 
> How Bad is Your Horse's Cough? | EQUUS Magazine


The only cough that sounds like Harley's is the one related to allergens. I can try to leave him out 24/7, but not tonight - we're being hit with a major freezing rain/hail storm and everything is covered with about 2 inches of ice. Once I figure out whether they can even go outside tomorrow, I can determine whether it's an option to leave him out tomorrow night, or the next one. However, he does use his stall for shelter, therefore will probably just go in there to sleep anyway. But maybe moving around more will help? My worry, as you know, is that in the past, colder weather has brought on more coughing. Keeping him warm seemed beneficial, so turning him out in the dead of winter seems pretty brutal if his immune system is already vulnerable.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

He may be reacting more in winter 1) because of the cold 2) the barn is more closed up in winter with less air circulating around (I know the stall doors are open but still less air) 3) he is spending more time in his stall in winter.

These are just suggestions as I'm trying to think of anything that could help poor Harley

I wonder if you put some bedding outside, no mats and perhaps he might try to lay down outside and it might help.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> Hmmmm.... valid point about the possibility that he coughs in the summer too, but only at night. I have a feeling I am going to be viewing a LOT of video for the next while. I'm actually glad we did this, because we now have new information to share with the vet. I can only hope it will get us a little closer to finding a solution! But I find it hard to believe that I would NEVER hear him cough at all in the summer. We got up pretty darned early to go to shows and he wasn't coughing. In the winter, he coughs occasionally during the day, so I would assume I would hear the odd cough in the summer as well. Hard to say though...
> 
> How did you figure out it was a muscle disorder? Wouldn't he have shown symptoms of pain when being worked? While Harley doesn't like the girth tightened, he seems to enjoy being ridden and loves to canter and jump. I wouldn't say he gets fat on air, but he sure does love to eat! We have to limit him because he's small-boned and only 14.2hh. He eats hay cubes twice a day and about half a square bale of hay. About the same as my mare, who is also pretty dainty, but one inch taller. He does tend to have runny stool though, which is something else I'm grappling with. How did you diagnose your gelding with the muscle disorder? What kinds of tests does that require?


I don't think Harley has a muscle disorder, I was trying to give an example of how Harley's easy-keeper-ness could potentially be being "enhanced" by something like scar-tissue in his lungs. My story was supposed to be an example of how an unknown medical issue can trigger a bunch of seemingly random symptoms that, once the underlying issue was treated, all disappear.

Sorry, I didn't explain that very well! 


I'll be interested to see what you find out this summer with the video!! It'll be interesting to see if he coughs, or not...

On the topic of my gelding, I never noticed how bad off he was because every day was a "bad day" for him. I had no idea that that wasn't just his personality, you know? I never got the chance to ride him much when he was at home, maybe once every month or so, and it was only once we moved to a barn and I started riding every day that I realized that something definitely wasn't "right" with him.
Now that he's "better" and I know what a "good day" looks like for him, there's clear difference between bad days and good days, but back then there really wasn't that kind of definition.


If you're concerned about a muscle disorder, you can always ask your vet to do a muscle biopsy and send it to one of the universities that analyzes them. But I'd be surprised if Harley's issues were related to his muscles, I was more trying to illustrate how his weight, runny stool, coughing, and lungs might all be interconnected in a way no one ever guessed at.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

*I think Wallaby * might be on to something regarding a connection between weight, runny stool, coughing, and lungs.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, he has runny stools also and is over weight?
Has he ever had a CBC with white cell differencial? In the case of allergies, eosinophils are elevated
I do know, Smilie who is 100% fine, with full time turn out, will often cough, if I stall her overnight. This is even with all hay wetted, rubber stall matts and clean shavings She is very seldom stalled now, since I have not been showing her, and never coughs.
Of course, you can't leave him without shelter, but I would really think of having some horse shelters,and give him full time turnout. I do not bed my shelters. I also prefer to blanket when it gets really cold, like the week we were gone to Mexico. Temps that week went down to minus 30 C , and with strong winds.
I left blankets on Smilie and Charlie, telling our farm siter to take them off if it really warmed up. It did not, and so they just wore their blankets until I got back
When a horse lies down, his nose is much closer to any dust/allergen at ground level
All I know, is if a horse does not have some active infection, either viral or bacterial, or residual damage from a recent infection, they don't just cough for no reason
I would do the specific tests to rule out an allergic condition, which causes a hrose to become more and more sensitized withe each exposure, so that it takes very very little to produce a reaction (think booster effect)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just like in humans, you might wish to do some allergy testing, to rule out ROA

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19027178


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

carshon said:


> This will happen in calves that had severe pneumonia - their lungs never fully heal from the disease. *When laying down (and cows lay down a lot) the extra pressure of body weight and organs causes the lungs to have to work harder - since they are already compromised the bodies reaction to get more oxygen is to cough*.
> 
> I do not believe that this is reversible. In cows it causes unthriftiness (harder to gain and keep weight on)
> 
> This is just my experience with calves. We tend to inherit the calves that others would let die- we nurse them back to health and raise them to harvest. We do 4-8 calves per year


This is what I was going to say as well.

And as a human with breathing issues I can say it's the same (though you don't have issues with body mass crushing your organs lol). Laying down is uncomfortable for me if I'm having trouble and laying down flat is uncomfortable period on my back.

I'm not surprised to hear about this "development". I wouldn't be concerned about his joints from not laying down but sleep deprivation is a concern (they need to lay down for REM sleep), though at this point in his life I think if it was going to be a problem it would be by now.

Wouldn't hurt to do allergy testing, but I don't think that's what the issue is.

Curious what the vet says. I would consider scoping at this point.

I think the humidifier is a good idea (if feasible) and while the acid reflux theory makes sense (acid reflux does cause coughing in humans, ask me how I know!) I've never heard of anything like that in horses and am unsure with the obviously different body structure how that would work.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

is he developing the heave lines ? sometimes they hide on a chubby horse. 
some of the online vet supply sites carry a menthol cough syrup designed for horses. You can also have him allergy tested. Is your hay from the same field or from various fields ? Also do you get the hay at the same time each year ?
Same cut, such as 3rd cutting .


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> is he developing the heave lines ? sometimes they hide on a chubby horse.
> some of the online vet supply sites carry a menthol cough syrup designed for horses. You can also have him allergy tested. Is your hay from the same field or from various fields ? Also do you get the hay at the same time each year ?
> Same cut, such as 3rd cutting .


Thanks - I had to google heave lines and went through all the photos we have of him in various positions. He does not have them. Attaching one below. 

He is on a cough syrup called Respi-free. It contains menthol, as well as other "natural" ingredients (as in, allowed even for shows). I have been giving him a low dose because I didn't think he was coughing much. The suggested dose is 30-90 ml once to 3 times daily. I had been giving him 30 ml twice a day. I upped it yesterday to about 40 ml 3 x /day. No coughing AT ALL this morning. Sadly, my motion-sensing video camera stopped working around midnight so I didn't see any coughing or laying down. I think the battery is dead. We will charge it and try again tonight. I can still increase the dosage by quite a bit. The stuff costs an arm and a leg, but if it helps prevent the coughing, I'll be happy to give it to him.

Finally, I did have my hay analyzed so have a pretty good idea what's in it. The hay cubes are Timothy only and he only gets a little so I can give him his supplements. I did buy a second batch of hay because I was worried we'd run out. The bulk of our hay is first cut, from one field. The second back it second cut, and far more grassy in texture. Because it's less dusty and because the vet suggested second cut hay might help cure his runny stool, I have been giving Harley more of the second cut hay, but he still gets a bit of both. In any case, as soon as I gave him the new hay (first cut, then second cut) last summer, he stopped coughing. Literally overnight. The previous hay he was on was from his boarding stable and it was very dusty. I had to wet it. The new hay was nice and fresh and seemed like very good quality hay. He didn't cough until it got cold again outside (or until the hay started to age and get more dusty). 

Pic of Harley last November where you can see his belly.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Woodhaven said:


> He may be reacting more in winter 1) because of the cold 2) the barn is more closed up in winter with less air circulating around (I know the stall doors are open but still less air) 3) he is spending more time in his stall in winter.
> 
> These are just suggestions as I'm trying to think of anything that could help poor Harley
> 
> I wonder if you put some bedding outside, no mats and perhaps he might try to lay down outside and it might help.



Thanks Woodhaven. But there is bedding outside. Because of the dutch doors, lots of bedding gets kicked out of their stalls everytime they come in and out. No mats. But lots of bedding! I have never seen him laying down in the snow (just rolling), but I've seen Kodak nap in the snow for an hour. Harley does nap on grass or in his favorite sandy spot in the paddock in the summer, but doesn't seem to want to lay down in snow.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Wallaby said:


> I don't think Harley has a muscle disorder, I was trying to give an example of how Harley's easy-keeper-ness could potentially be being "enhanced" by something like scar-tissue in his lungs. My story was supposed to be an example of how an unknown medical issue can trigger a bunch of seemingly random symptoms that, once the underlying issue was treated, all disappear.
> 
> Sorry, I didn't explain that very well!


Gotcha Wallaby! Sorry I took your post so literally. I agree, it could be something underlying that we just can't put our fingers on. Which is why I keep posting about his symptoms in such great detail, LOL!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> So, he has runny stools also and is over weight?
> Has he ever had a CBC with white cell differencial? In the case of allergies, eosinophils are elevated
> I do know, Smilie who is 100% fine, with full time turn out, will often cough, if I stall her overnight. This is even with all hay wetted, rubber stall matts and clean shavings She is very seldom stalled now, since I have not been showing her, and never coughs.
> Of course, you can't leave him without shelter, but I would really think of having some horse shelters,and give him full time turnout. I do not bed my shelters. I also prefer to blanket when it gets really cold, like the week we were gone to Mexico. Temps that week went down to minus 30 C , and with strong winds.
> ...


So, to answer your first question Smilie - yes, Harley has chronic, but sporadic, soft stool. However, it's gone at the moment. His stool are nice and firm at the moment, and have been for a few days. It comes and goes, and is not completely liquid, just sometimes less firm. Bad enough to stain his hocks, but does not seem to be causing discomfort. No fever. He could probably shed a few pounds, but that's because it's winter and we can't ride as much. Also because he can't even move around much because of all the ice we've had. He's not obese. The weight will come off in the spring when he is more active. When he was on pasture, we didn't need to use a grazing muzzle, for example. He never got too fat grazing. It's just that he likes to eat and will not stop if you put hay in front of him, so we have to limit how much he gets. 

Ruling out an allergic reaction sounds like a good step. Will also bring it up with the vet. He did get a full metabolic panel done and was fine, but it sounds like to test for an allergic reaction, you'd want to do it when the allergy has been activated. 

Also, I understand what you're saying about horses being capable of living outside in the cold, however, if this isn't an allergy, and my gut feeling is right - that the cold makes it worse - and I put him outside when he hasn't had time to get used to it since he was in all winter, I could cause him to get sick again, maybe get pneumonia. I can't take that risk. 

Furthermore, I do leave the top of his stall door open on mild nights. I tried leaving it open on colder nights (he likes to hang his head outside) and in the morning, he was coughing more than ever. Those dry, - 20 nights seem to be the worst. So while I know everyone says a COPD horse does better outside, at this point, I'm not convinced it's the best thing for Harley.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Summer Harley and pudgy, winter Harley  Can't seem to find more recent winter pics with snow in which he's not wearing his blanket.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Have you tried large flake shavings?


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Subbing~


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

natisha said:


> Have you tried large flake shavings?


Not sure what you mean by "large" as there's only one kind of shavings sold around here. He was on shavings last fall/winter (two different barns), now on wood pellets (have tried three different brands).


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Vet says just give him Dex. 

I'm not prepared to go there yet, but will keep some on hand in case things get worse. I upped the dose of Respi-free (contains some natural supplements), but am still not at maximum dose. He didn't cough once today, not even a little. Will set up the camera again tonight to see if he's still coughing at night. I know we're just managing it, but by alleviating the symptoms, I may be preventing it from being aggravated. Vet basically said it's likely his pneumonia has predisposed him to COPD and there's really nothing we can do. Allergy testing, in his opinion, is often inconclusive. 

One thing at a time.... tonight, I will do everything the same, but keep the dosage of Respi-free where it is. The company that makes it also makes two other products I can try. One is a lung flush. If none of those products help, I will try using straw as bedding (equine massage therapist mentioned that he could be reacting to a type of wood, ie, spruce, pine, etc. that is common to shavings and pellets). If that doesn't help, I will start leaving his stall door open at night, assuming the weather allows it. I also have Spirulina on order, which is supposed to help, as does vitamin C according to some sources. Bronchodilators are also an option. Lots of things to try before I get to the Dex!!! But I will give it to him if I have to.

Will keep updating as I rule things out. Thanks to all for your ideas.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

My chiro that also practices some Eastern Medicine is due to be here either Wednesday next week or the Wednesday after that.

*Please REMIND me* to ask her about Harley's issues and also if she might be able to locate someone in Ontario that would work with Harley.

Are you in the center of Ontario or close to any of the Provincial borders?

I know there has to be something to help him and my chiro may even be able to hazard an herbal guess. But you would have to have someone credentialed in the area to order it, as everything of Dr. xie's is by prescription.

anyway, I don't want to forget to ask her, so help me remember ------ I'm old ya know, lollol


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> My chiro that also practices some Eastern Medicine is due to be here either Wednesday next week or the Wednesday after that.
> 
> *Please REMIND me* to ask her about Harley's issues and also if she might be able to locate someone in Ontario that would work with Harley.
> 
> ...


Am putting a note in my agenda to remind you! LOL, not exactly young over here either!

I'm about 14 hours by car from Ontario, LOL. That's if you eat on the road and only stop once for a pee break 

I live in New Brunswick, wayyyyyy east. Central New Brunswick. I asked around at an Equine expo this weekend and no one knows of anyone around here. But if your chiro knows of anyone in the Maritimes, maybe they travel. My equine massage therapist goes all over the Atlantic provinces to do her thing. It's fairly common. But even she didn't know of anyone.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

While I do believe in some alternative medicine, there is an actual medication , FDA approved, that helps horses to breathe, and I used it a long time ago, when a stud of ours was fed dusty hay, at a trainers, and thus would cough on exercise. It helped very, very well

it is called ventripulmin, and is a syrup you just put over food

Ventipulmin® Syrup | Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sounds like a good plan but just to throw out I've seen some impressive stuff with allergy testing/immunotherapy. I'm curious as to why the vet thinks it's inconclusive? Was it in response to the testing or the results? I can understand the results being inconclusive in the way of just because he's allergic to "x" doesn't mean that's why he's coughing.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I am learning about horse health just like the rest of you, and am no expert.

I know a lot about pathophysiology in general from human health care. 

If a lung has anything that compromises it - whether it is loss of healthy tissue (damage/scarring) to exchange oxygen with the circulatory system, fluid or phlegm in the airways, or narrowed airways from constriction, the lung will be affected even more by anything that keeps it from inflating as fully. When laying down, a horse can't expand their lungs as fully, so this would make any underlying problem affect the horse more while laying down.

Something else that could make a cough worse when a horse lies down is that horses' upper airways drain best when the head is down grazing. Laying down can make any mucous that is being produced go down into the lungs instead of draining out through the nose. This is one reason horses with COPD can do better when turned out. They are not only exposed to less dust, mold and ammonia, but they also will drain any mucous that might exacerbate the problem better if their head is down grazing more.

Deep breathing also helps expand the lungs more fully and move secretions, and as with humans this happens more with movement and exercise rather than standing in a stall. I'm not saying you should turn the horse out 24/7, just explaining some things that can exacerbate breathing problems. I would assume you already feed off the floor and not from an elevated rack.

Colder air in the lungs can cause them to produce more histamine, which means allergy symptoms can worsen. Dryer, colder air can make the mucous membranes less slick and able to move secretions through. The secretions also dry up and get sticky and clog the airways more. 

About the coughing/acid reflux connection:

There are nerves that supply both the trachea and esophagus. Acid that refluxes into the esophagus can cause these nerves to trigger chest pain, cough, bronchoconstriction and asthma attacks. Acid that makes it farther up the esophagus can cause sore throat or laryngitis. This is why controlling acid reflux can help humans with chronic hoarse or sore throats, cough, and prevent some asthma attacks. 

However, I have not heard of acid reflux in horses, and would be skeptical of it happening very often because of what I've read regarding their esophageal sphincter. It is a very strong sphincter and actually works to prevent regurgitation from the stomach. It is nearly impossible for horses to vomit or move things from the stomach out, so I would doubt acid would be able to regularly make it into the esophagus to a level where it could affect the airways.

Just some facts to speculate on, hope it might help a little.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Smilie said:


> While I do believe in some alternative medicine, there is an actual medication , FDA approved, that helps horses to breathe, and I used it a long time ago, when a stud of ours was fed dusty hay, at a trainers, and thus would cough on exercise. It helped very, very well
> 
> it is called ventripulmin, and is a syrup you just put over food
> 
> Ventipulmin® Syrup | Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica


Lots of things offered for consideration here, Acadian. I always think that when you get one of these mysteries it may well be the combination of a variety of things (rather than one) which makes it so tricky to figure out. As an fyi, I have a horse prone to heave attacks in summer only (it starts when the weather gets hot and ends when the days cool down). He takes ventipulin (sp?) and dexamethasone. The ventipulin helps open up the airway extremely well while the dex reduces inflammation. I'm paying a little over $100 for a bottle of ventipulin and it will last me the whole season while he is affected.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie and Chevaux - thanks for mentioning this medication! Adding it to the list of things to try before going back to Dex. Do either of you know if it is allowed in competition? I know Dex is not. Harley won't be competing until spring, but last year, we had to wean him off Dex before competition and he coughed at the competition which was awkward. Chevaux - good to know you were able to get it in Canada. I pay 150$ for a big bottle of Respi-free. 

Yogiwick - not sure why the vet didn't think there was much point to allergy testing. I guess because there might be a reaction to several things, but no way to know which causes the coughing. He suggested I go through a process of elimination instead. 

Gottatrot - wow, thanks! That is indeed very helpful. I'm not ruling out the possibility of turning him out 24-7, but am unwilling to start doing it in the middle of winter. Next year, however, I could leave him out so he can adjust gradually to the cold. I absolutely believe horses can live outside in the winter, it's just that where I've kept him in so far, it might just make things worse to suddenly leave him out. As soon as spring rolls around, I'll start leaving him out. I also want to try one thing at a time so I know what helps and what doesn't. And yes, I do feed from the ground or from a lowered position (I use haynets). 

Off to the barn to retrieve another set of videos from last night.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Double post, ignore this one.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Videos from last night. He slept better than two nights ago. Had a very long full-body sleep (ie, laying down) from 12:28 to 1:23. Woke up and shook, did not really cough, but made a kind of retching sound. Watch video 0072 (noise is at the very beginning and barely audible). 






He lays down again at 3:39 and is up at 4:04, so about 25 minutes. Gets up and coughs several times. Tell me this doesn't look like a horse trying to clear his airways??? Video 0108.






Lays down again at 5:53 and up at 6:22. Total sleep: 30 min. Coughs three times, but it is a fairly shallow cough this time. Video 0126. 






He laid down one last time after this, from 7 to 7:30 am, coughed three times again. Didn't post that video as it's basically a repeat of the last. 

The only thing I changed is increasing the dose of Respifree, the cough syrup I'm giving him. He has not coughed at all during the day in several days. I would say there's a clear improvement. I can up the dose again, but that will take me to maximum dosage (90 ml 3 x per day). It's a bit of a pain because the syringe only goes to 60 ml so I have to give it to him and refill... he's not a big fan of this process so it can be challenging, but I will try it starting tonight.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Don't have time to watch videos but good to hear he is improving!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Alright, so help me out here folks. Last night, I decided it was mild enough outside to leave the top of his dutch door open (baby steps). He was still in his stall, but with the top of the door open so he could stick his head out, which he did periodically through the night. I gave him the maximum Respifree dose last night (90 ml). He's accepting it pretty well, likes to play with the syringe now. 

He didn't cough as much through the night, but had the most awful coughing fit this morning when I came in to feed him. Until he spat out a huge wad of mucus (again, whitish, thick, opaque). Gross. Anyway, that cleared it up, I gave him another 90 ml of Respifree and he didn't cough again. I notice he never coughs when he's eating, even when he eats the non-steamed hay during the day when he's outside with Kodak. I'm wondering whether there's any point in steaming the hay at all.

Essentially, he hardly laid down all night (only twice very briefly, from 3 am to 3:02 and from 6:51 to 6:56 am). So while leaving the top of the dutch door open led to less coughing through the night (only once at 6:51, but then again around 8 when I came in for their feeding), it also led to very little deep sleep since he was far more active through the night. Less time laying down = less coughing. Not sure this is really what I'm aiming for though. Thoughts?

Edited to add that I went back and viewed a few more videos. He has coughing fits at 7:35, 7:47 and 8:03 (which is about when I came in). He had not been laying down previously, but had his head stuck outside, waiting for his morning ration. So it appears he will cough even when he doesn't lay down, but less so then when he does. In other words, coughing is ALWAYS present when getting up from a laying down position, and usually disrupts his sleep, but can also be present at other times, though less so.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Regardless of what he is allergic to, I do believe that he is developing ROA, or CPOD as a result, and many factors, besides exposure to the antigen itself, are going to determine any progression over time
Other factors, like cold air, any inflammation , body position, movement (or lack thereof) ect, are going to exhaberate symptoms, but they in themselves are not the cause
I would seek the opinion of an equine vet and get more definitive tests


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Regardless of what he is allergic to, I do believe that he is developing ROA, or CPOD as a result, and many factors, besides exposure to the antigen itself, are going to determine any progression over time
> Other factors, like cold air, any inflammation , body position, movement (or lack thereof) ect, are going to exhaberate symptoms, but they in themselves are not the cause
> I would seek the opinion of an equine vet and get more definitive tests


No equine vets here Smilie, just large animal vets. Nearest equine vets are 5 hours away. 

I agree, I am only treating symptoms, not getting at the root of cause. Am exploring other options at the moment. Will keep you all posted, but as always, am, open to suggestions. As you can see, I can't get much support from my vet (ask Whattatroublemaker, we deal with the same lack of equine specialists since we live in the same area). If I was, I wouldn't be seeking answers elsewhere. 

I am slowly narrowing down the root cause of the coughing. Phlegm in his respiratory system appears to be causing a need to expel the mucus. This seems to be exacerbated when he lays down, thus possibly compressing his lungs or causing the mucus to pool (basic gravity). What is causing the mucus in the first place? 

I do have a lead... am following it and hope to get help soon. Keep the responses coming folks! All your ideas help me get closer to solving this mystery.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I doubt he is compressing his lungs, lying down, which does happen when a horse gets cast onto his back.
Lying down though, does allow that mucus to accumulate, as the horse can't lower his head, stretch out his neck and cough, as they will when standing
My husband has the beginning of CPOD, and when he gets up in the morning, guaranteed to have a coughing bout.
You are very dedicated to good management, and that should help Harley have many cough free periods during the year and delay/ prevent any serious progression. Good luck !


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I must correct myself, as I just found out through good old google, should you scope, then it is neutrophils that are increased in horses and not eosinophils, in case of allergies. Human lab work does not always co relate to horses!

Dr. House, AAEP. In most cases of allergic airway in other animals, mast cells and eosinophils are seen, but in horses it is neutrophils.,


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am in no way suggesting that Harley has anything like full blown CPOD, but googling I came across this site, with a product that might help, and info on also supplimenting Vit E. Just another product you might consider. 

I know nothing about it

http://www.equinemedsurg.com/articles/equine-heaves-copd/#Airway

(see, I do check out natural remedies also! )


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks Smilie! I am already supplementing Vitamin E, but will look at the other product you posted.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Had a look. Not saying it wouldn't help, but again, when I read this: 
*IS THIS YOUR HORSE?*

*Rapid respiratory rate, coughing, nasal discharge, stressed, can’t breathe right so can’t ride.*



I can't say Harley fits any of that. His respiratory rate is normal (as per vet), he doesn't have nasal discharge, he breathes fine at a w,t,c, and sure doesn't act stressed. In fact, I would probably think all is fine if it weren't for the fact that I set up a camera in front of his stall at night. He no longer coughs during the day, but at night, he has an occasional cough, which tells me what I thought was gone, is just being suppressed. 



So again, not full-blown COPD, but certainly could get there. I just want him to have a good, long life. 



My lead is a chiropractic, holistic vet... it's complicated, but I'm going to try very hard to have him treat Harley. Again, will update when something changes, but am still open to ideas in the meantime.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

like the disclaimer, I posted, I realize Harley is nowhere near full blown CPOD, and thus wondered if you would focus on that, far as the link, as that was not my intention
He might be at the beginning, thus the reason why I posted that link. If it helps full blown CPOD cases, a low dose just might be that 'ounce of prevention that is worth a pound of cure" !
At the same time, might be a better choice then steroids, if it comes to that decision needing to be made-that is all that was behind my post.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Just a couple of comments, Acadian:

Re Ventipulin and competition -- sorry I don't know if it's allowed or not; if I had to guess I would have to say no as it could, in theory at least, probably be used to enhance a horse's ability to perform thus giving an unfair advantage????

Re Leaving the top door open and restlessness -- I suspect this was a new event to him (at least in his mind) and hence he was more restless; if you keep leaving the door open (assuming you can if the weather lets you) he will accept it as part of the new norm and settle down for a quiet winter's nap. Then, at that point, you will be better able to judge if this is going to work for him or not.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> like the disclaimer, I posted, I realize Harley is nowhere near full blown CPOD, and thus wondered if you would focus on that, far as the link, as that was not my intention
> He might be at the beginning, thus the reason why I posted that link. If it helps full blown CPOD cases, a low dose just might be that 'ounce of prevention that is worth a pound of cure" !
> At the same time, might be a better choice then steroids, if it comes to that decision needing to be made-that is all that was behind my post.


Sorry Smilie, wasn't meaning to sound defensive. I know what you were trying to say. I guess my concern is that if he doesn't exhibit typical symptoms, perhaps he won't react in a typical way to the usual remedies. I have been assuming it was something like mild COPD, but I'm trying to stay open to the possibility that it's something else... For example, I have been steaming his hay. But he NEVER coughs while eating or after eating. Seem just fine all day long. At night, he never coughs while eating his hay, or after eating his hay. So last night, I plugged my nose and DIDN'T steam his hay. It was hard, because I really, really wanted to... But he didn't cough. Now, there was a camera malfunction so I lost part of the footage so I'm going to try again tonight... but during the few hours I recorded, he didn't cough once (he didn't lay down either). He was not coughing this morning. Not once. No mucus either. I don't think it's the hay.

Will keep giving him the max dose of Respifree, leave his top door open tonight and set up the camera again.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Chevaux said:


> Just a couple of comments, Acadian:
> 
> Re Ventipulin and competition -- sorry I don't know if it's allowed or not; if I had to guess I would have to say no as it could, in theory at least, probably be used to enhance a horse's ability to perform thus giving an unfair advantage????
> 
> Re Leaving the top door open and restlessness -- I suspect this was a new event to him (at least in his mind) and hence he was more restless; if you keep leaving the door open (assuming you can if the weather lets you) he will accept it as part of the new norm and settle down for a quiet winter's nap. Then, at that point, you will be better able to judge if this is going to work for him or not.


Thanks Chevaux. The other issue with the Ventipulin, is that if you follow the dosage suggested on their website, a 355 ml bottle (100$) would only last you 14 days! Yikes! Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but the Respifree is far cheaper and completely natural so for now, I'll keep using it. Still good to know there are other options out there... if I win the lottery! Just kidding, I guess I could swing it if I had to.

And you make a good point. That occurred to me as well, after I posted in here. It could just be the change that is keeping him up more. He wants to see what's going on outside. But it makes it hard to determine whether the fresh air is beneficial, or whether he's just coughing less because he's not laying down much. As you point out, the only way to know is to give it a few nights. I will try again tonight and hope that my camera doesn't malfunction this time. But he didn't cough at all this morning. My gut feeling is that it's the higher dose of Respifree that is doing it, but I could be wrong.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

There may be hope!!! I just talked to my small animal vet. He is also a family friend so despite the fact that he has a crazy busy practice, I begged a pleaded until he agreed to do a consult on Harley. The reason I wanted him is because he practices homeopathic medicine. He will also do traditional medicine, but has a far broader range of knowledge than most vets. He also just did an acupuncture and Chinese medicine course in the US which happened to be on horses. He used to be a large animal vet so it's not like this is all new to him, but his recent training makes him a perfect candidate to try to figure out what's going on with Harley. Also - he has COPD himself! Which he manages with homeopathic remedies. 

He is coming out tomorrow (yes, on a Sunday, like I said, he's a friend) and will start with trying to determine whether it's allergies or infectious. If he thinks it's allergies, he is going to do allergy testing. He has a different type of allergy testing kit than what my large animal vet would use and claims it is 90% accurate. If we can figure out the allergen, we can either remove it or minimize it. He also has had success desensitizing to allergens so if it's not something we can remove, there is hope we can desensitize Harley to whatever is irritating him.

Finally, if nothing else works, he has some homeopathic remedies (drops you add to his water) we can try. And if THAT doesn't work, he can recommend a bronchodilator that is in powder form, which we can add to his food. 

I'm hopeful that we will finally get to the bottom of this! And super-excited to get all the testing done.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

:happydance::clap::happydance::clap::happydance::clap:


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## Ryle (Jul 13, 2007)

Just for reference: https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/publications/attachments/cam02_nhmrc_statement_homeopathy.pdf


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Ryle said:


> Just for reference: https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/publications/attachments/cam02_nhmrc_statement_homeopathy.pdf


Thanks Cindy. I don't mean to open up a whole debate here, but the line between conventional and homeopathic treatments isn't always so clear. Extracting medicine from plants is common to both, for example. The vet who is coming to see Harley (he wasn't able to make it out yesterday, btw, but will come some evening this week) practices both homeopathic and conventional medicine. We start with the less invasive treatments, then move to the more invasive, conventional methods when it becomes necessary. He has cured my dog of digestive issues using acupuncture so I have reason to hope. The bottom line for me is whether or now we will see improvement in Harley. These will be easy to measure - if we can get him to stop coughing completely or mostly, I will be happy with that. I'm not disregarding scientific evidence, but I think that those who practice homeopathic medicine have such a broad range of approaches and treatments that it's possible some are effective while others aren't. Trust me, I am skeptical about it too, but prefer to try this before I resort to giving Harley steroids again. 

The good thing about animals is they aren't influenced by placebos. The camera does not lie - I may not see Harley cough during the day, but with a camera to record episodes at night, and with me writing down the number of episodes, seriousness of the cough and number of coughs per episode, I think I have a pretty good baseline.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

are you using pine pellets ? or cedar pellets ? he could have a pine allergy. have you tried clean straw in place of shavings ? One year we had a sick foal, Vet said get some straw, shavings can suck up the nostril.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> are you using pine pellets ? or cedar pellets ? he could have a pine allergy. have you tried clean straw in place of shavings ? One year we had a sick foal, Vet said get some straw, shavings can suck up the nostril.


I don't know what's in them, it just says 100% softwood. May be a mix. And yes, it's entirely possible there's some kind of wood in there that is bothering him. Could be that the same kind of wood was in the wood shavings he was on last winter as well. 

I did think of using straw. Harley is a pig, so would probably eat some, but I'm willing to try it. However, before I make any more big changes, I'm going to get the allergy testing done so we know for sure (hopefully).


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## jenndieu (Oct 31, 2016)

I apologize up-front, because I'm out of time and have not been able to read the entire thread. 

My horse has allergy-induced respiratory issues. I realize from the skimming that you're working (very hard! kudos to you!) to determine if this issue is allergy-induced or infection-related. Unlike your horse, my horse is worse in the spring/summer. I was told to un-stall my horse.  He has to live outside 24/7 (with run-in shelter, if he chooses to use it). I realize that you're in Canada, and it's way colder there. Therefore, this may not be an option. However, the overall advice is to have him outside in the open air as much as possible. (I was told that keeping him in a stall would exacerbate the issue, because scar tissue would develop in the lungs. As more scar tissue develops, more airflow is restricted. Over years, you get to the point at which the horse can barely breathe due to the amount of scar tissue in the lungs). 

All that said, I had to stall my horse for a full six-months due to an injury. Both the vet and I were on edge about it (but there was no choice). At the first sign of coughing, I put him on SmartBreathe (some formula from SmartPak). I did not have high hopes of it doing anything, nor did my vet. However, we both determined that it was worth a try and would do no harm. I was *amazed* at the results. He became asymptomatic when on the SmartBreathe. I ran out, as we were trying to determine his release date, and I was juggling a lot of logistics. Without it, his symptons reappeared. I put him back on it, and he was perfect again. So you may want to look in to that product. I do highly recommend it. 

Very best of luck. Your horse is lucky to have you!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jenndieu said:


> I apologize up-front, because I'm out of time and have not been able to read the entire thread.
> 
> My horse has allergy-induced respiratory issues. I realize from the skimming that you're working (very hard! kudos to you!) to determine if this issue is allergy-induced or infection-related. Unlike your horse, my horse is worse in the spring/summer. I was told to un-stall my horse.  He has to live outside 24/7 (with run-in shelter, if he chooses to use it). I realize that you're in Canada, and it's way colder there. Therefore, this may not be an option. However, the overall advice is to have him outside in the open air as much as possible. (I was told that keeping him in a stall would exacerbate the issue, because scar tissue would develop in the lungs. As more scar tissue develops, more airflow is restricted. Over years, you get to the point at which the horse can barely breathe due to the amount of scar tissue in the lungs).
> 
> ...


Thanks Jenndieu! I will add that to the list of things to try. It's complicated because SmartPak does not deliver to Canada, but there are ways around that if necessary. It will just be more expensive and more complicated. Worth a try nonetheless! 

As for being outside 24/7 I'm really torn. I know that's what everyone says is best for them, but I have observed that in really cold weather, Harley coughs more. He is out in the summer, and is fine then, but in the winter, as soon as the temperature drops to -20 C or so, he coughs very badly. It's worse when the air is very dry, which it is when it gets that cold since everything freezes solid. 

I will wait to see what the vet thinks when he comes. I am not completely opposed to leaving him out year round (with access to shelter of course), but it's something I'd want to do gradually so he can adjust to the cooling temps. It's probably not a good idea to do it now when he's been sleeping inside all winter. And I worry about aggravating the cough on the off chance that it is actually due to an infection.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks Cindy. I don't mean to open up a whole debate here, but the line between conventional and homeopathic treatments isn't always so clear. Extracting medicine from plants is common to both, for example. The vet who is coming to see Harley (he wasn't able to make it out yesterday, btw, but will come some evening this week) practices both homeopathic and conventional medicine. We start with the less invasive treatments, then move to the more invasive, conventional methods when it becomes necessary. He has cured my dog of digestive issues using acupuncture so I have reason to hope. The bottom line for me is whether or now we will see improvement in Harley. These will be easy to measure - if we can get him to stop coughing completely or mostly, I will be happy with that. I'm not disregarding scientific evidence, but I think that those who practice homeopathic medicine have such a broad range of approaches and treatments that it's possible some are effective while others aren't. Trust me, I am skeptical about it too, but prefer to try this before I resort to giving Harley steroids again.
> 
> The good thing about animals is they aren't influenced by placebos. The camera does not lie - I may not see Harley cough during the day, but with a camera to record episodes at night, and with me writing down the number of episodes, seriousness of the cough and number of coughs per episode, I think I have a pretty good baseline.


Homeopathy and natural remedies, are not one and the same. Homeopathy, where a very dilute solution is used, so that there can be detected nothing of the original substance, and where supporters state some 'unknown principle is involved,, including water molecule memory, is just Bad Science
Alternative medicine that works, is the basis of many of our patented drugs
ASA , digitalis, just being two examples


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

do you have a relative in the States that you could use their address to get the product shipped, and then have the relative mail the package to you ? Probably costly to mail or ship, depending on where everyone would be located.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> do you have a relative in the States that you could use their address to get the product shipped, and then have the relative mail the package to you ? Probably costly to mail or ship, depending on where everyone would be located.


There are companies who provide that service. Like I said, it's not impossible, but it complicated and costly. Before I buy any more products though, I'd like to have the vet make an assessment. But of course, this is one more product to add to the list of things to try if we run into dead ends.


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## jenndieu (Oct 31, 2016)

I also was going to offer the same as *stevenson* in terms of shipping. If it's helpful (or less costly) to have something shipped to me in the States that I then can turn around and post to you, please let me know. I get free shipping to me from SmartPak.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jenndieu said:


> I also was going to offer the same as *stevenson* in terms of shipping. If it's helpful (or less costly) to have something shipped to me in the States that I then can turn around and post to you, please let me know. I get free shipping to me from SmartPak.


Wow, thanks jenn! The generosity of people on this forum is amazing. Will keep it in mind. 

So far, he is on Respifree at max dose and I added a couple of dose of another product I can get from the same manufacturers of Respifree. This one is called Stasis. I checked with the company and they confirm it's ok to give him both at the same time since they contain different ingredients. He did not cough yesterday. I had the camera rolling last night, but it shut off around midnight for some unknown reason. Could be the - 22 C weather we're having. Hubby is still swapping out cameras to find one that will work, but we're not having much luck. 

Also still waiting for the vet to come. Hoping some evening this week. Meantime, I don't want to withhold meds that are helping so I'm continuing to do what I'm doing. Oh, except for steaming hay. I am no longer doing that as it doesn't seem to make the coughing better or worse. My gut feeling is that it's not dust, but if the vet proves me wrong, I'll go back to steaming. Just trying to eliminate things by keeping everything the same, and changing only one thing at a time. At least until we can get more definitive answers.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Homeopathy and natural remedies, are not one and the same. Homeopathy, where a very dilute solution is used, so that there can be detected nothing of the original substance, and where supporters state some 'unknown principle is involved,, including water molecule memory, is just Bad Science
> Alternative medicine that works, is the basis of many of our patented drugs
> ASA , digitalis, just being two examples


Your definition of homeopathy - while I'm not disputing it, is certainly not one our vet would use, lol. He is not an "unknown principle" kind of guy. However, it's true that a dilute sample of something can be used to gradually desensitize to allergies if introduced in a calculated way by someone who knows what they're doing (that someone is not me). 

The way my vet looks at it is that there are many possible approaches to treatment, and he likes to explore every option. Homeopathic medicine, natural medicine, holistic medicine, oriental medicine, conventional western medicine, - he will use his knowledge in all these areas to come up with treatment suggestions and usually solves the problem (based on my experience with several of our dogs). What he does believe in, overall, is that we can often adopt less invasive approaches. Like when our dog poked himself through the chest with a stick, or when his leg was "gloved" after being dragged by a truck for about 20 feet, and he didn't stitch it up. As crazy at is sounded to us, it all healed up just fine with barely a mark. He was treated entirely with homeopathic medicine too, except for the initial shot of adrenaline he got when he arrived and was going into shock. It was a lot of TLC, but he pulled out of it just fine. Only to get hit by a car again a year later and die of a head concussion (idiot). I turned to him to get advice about Harley because I know he understands when I say I'd rather not turn to steroids if I can avoid them. He's the only vet in the area who understands that, and will try to find another treatment. It doesn't rule out steroids, no more than it would rule out my vet stitching up a dog when necessary, but the difference is that he won't automatically go to the more conventional treatment.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

To be clear, I believe in a combination of conventional medicine and some proven natural remedies, and use them myself, both for my horses and for me

Homeopathy is not using some dilution of an allergen, to help build up tolerance in a host subject, but an entire unproven field, based on concepts that have no known science.
It is like making a dilution of a drop in a lake, so that not even the most sophisticated instruments can find a molecule of that original substance, and where believers state it has some as yet unknown scientific laws controlling it, and also involves some water molecule 'memory, created by how those dilution containers are handled(shaken/rapped)
By the way, there is a million dollars up, for anyone that an prove this false science has efficacy, standing up to true double blind studies

What is homeopathy? | The 10:23 Campaign | #ten23

From above link:

Contrary to popular belief, 'homeopathy' is not the same as herbal medicine.

Homeopathy is based on three central tenets, unchanged since their invention by Samuel Hahnemann in 1796.'

If you read the link above, and the 'principles that Homeopathy are founded on, such asThe Law of Infinitesimals and The Law of Succussion, You can see where many, myself included, while certainly accepting efficacy of herbal remedies, completely de bunk what is 'Homeopathy


https://www.theguardian.com/science/2007/nov/16/sciencenews.g2


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> To be clear, I believe in a combination of conventional medicine and some proven natural remedies, and use them myself, both for my horses and for me
> 
> Homeopathy is not using some dilution of an allergen, to help build up tolerance in a host subject, but an entire unproven field, based on concepts that have no known science.
> It is like making a dilution of a drop in a lake, so that not even the most sophisticated instruments can find a molecule of that original substance, and where believers state it has some as yet unknown scientific laws controlling it, and also involves some water molecule 'memory, created by how those dilution containers are handled(shaken/rapped)
> ...


I have great respect for your horse knowledge Smilie, and as always, appreciate the lengths you go to in order to respond to posts by newbies like me. I also do not wish to engage in a debate about the value of homeopathy. However, I would point out that it is not all quackery and witchcraft. In fact, this article illustrates my point about the homeopathic approach to desensitizing against allergens: 

"None other than the "father of immunology," Dr. Emil Adolph Von Behring (1906), directly pointed to the origins of immunizations when he asserted, "(B)y what technical term could we more appropriately speak of this influence than by Hahnemann's* word ‘homeopathy'." (*Samuel Hahnemann, MD, 1755-1843, was a renowned German physician and the founder of homeopathy). Modern allergy treatment, likewise, utilizes the homeopathic approach by the use of small doses of allergens in order to create an antibody response." https://www.homeopathic.com/Article...eat_Introductory_Article_for_Advocates_O.html

Homeopathic medicine is the use of very dilute (nano-doses) of substances to trigger a natural reaction in the body. In the same way a trace amount of peanut oil left on a spoon used to stir a soup could send someone in anapĥylactic shock. And those who have serious allergies become more and more sensitive to the substance as their body develops a hypersensitivity to it. 

This article also quotes journal articles of double-blind studies in homeopathic treatments that show that patients receiving homeopathic treatment improved more than those receiving placebos: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14734789

Of course if you dig, you will find others that attempt to disprove this research. Without wanting to sound paranoid, I'm guessing pharmaceutical companies would prefer we all keep buying conventional medicine. Since I am not an expert in the medical field, I cannot say who is right with a great deal of certainty. However, respectable medical journals subject articles to peer-review by experts, therefore I would expect someone does think there is merit to this above-quoted study, as well as several others quoted in the article I mentioned. 

The problem with the article you quote is that they use people, not animals as test subjects, for one. Animals do not recognize the placebo effect. Also, the million dollars was offered for someone who could prove "paranormal abilities" as per this quote in your article: "American magician and debunker James Randi has for many years had a $1m prize on offer for anyone who can demonstrate paranormal abilities". I am certainly doubtful he will find someone to fit that criteria.

Again, this is not meant to be a defense of homeopathy. I don't know what treatment options we will use to help Harley, but I do want to start with the least invasive treatments. Placebos don't work on animals so we will know pretty quickly, given how detailed my records are, whether something is working or not. However, I am not willing to throw homeopathy out the window until I try it - IF that's what my vet suggests. I figure it can't do any harm - unlike the example used in the article you mention which uses a homeopathic HIV - AIDS treatment as an example! I think that it can be irresponsible to turn away from conventional medicine when the consequence could be fairly imminent death, but I don't think I am putting Harley at risk by choosing the gentlest treatment first, then moving gradually to a harsher treatment. And if it has to be steroids, then that's what it will be.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Again, that is not what true homeopathy is-subjecting an individual to a low does of the antigen to build up immunity.
No, homeopathy ,is using an ultimate dilution where NOTHING of the original Substance can be measured, and thus claiming efficacy on some unknown scientific principles and 'water memory;.
That water memory, is used to explain when none of the original substance can be measured, even with the most sensitive scientific methods available
You are confusing using a dilute sample of an allergen, to try and build up tolerance, which is an excepted practice of immunology, to using an ultimate dilution, where nOTHING of the original substance can be measured,and then to state that is due to water molecule memory, facilitated by rapping those dilution containers
MOst times, if not always, something that can;t be measured, is not there!
I know I am being dogmatic about this, but with a lab and science background, while having an open mind to alternative treatments that work, but that just do not have been patented, I really have a problem with quackery, and that is, what homeopathy , as per definition of that term
Here is a good video on this controversy.Sorry, no attempt to offend anyone,and apologies in advance, if tim does so, just a good poetic rendition
I guess, due to recent trails, where parents allowed their children to starve, die of easily treated infections, I do have an agenda, far as debunking blind faith in things like homeopathy, which as noted , is NOT just alternative therapy, some of which has good efficacy
I myself took Essiac, when I had breast cancer, along with chemo


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If your vet is using a dilute sample of the allergen, which can be measured, it is not true Homeopathy, where nothing is left of that original sample, and where touted efficacy is claimed to be due to water memory, facilitated by rapping those dilution beakers, and to as yet unknown principles that are outside of the parameters of known scientific principles
None of those studies that tried to prove efficacy of homeopathy held up to true scientific double blind studies
A good read is Dr Ben Goldacre's book, Bad Science. He goes after all Bad science,including that of Big Pharma, and not just Bad science like Homeopathy
I really recommend that book. It goes into how Big Pharma can use selected population, publish unfavorable results in obscure medical Journals
In other words, he attacks ALL bad science
You are also again trying to attribute the case against Homeopathy to to persecution of all alternative therapy, in a protective manner, and that is not the case, far as Homeopathy
Bad science embraces both conventional medicine, as well as alternative, just like poor horsemanship is found in both traditional and NH training
True homeopathy, not all alternative medicine, is Bad Science


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks Smilie, but I think you are taking this thread into a direction that does not benefit me or Harley. 

I posted an alternate point of view on homeopathy. You can maintain your stance on it (it's not like anyone will convince you to let it go) regardless of the studies I posted. I don't really see any point in taking this argument further and frankly, I don't have the time! That doesn't mean I am confusing anything - in fact, you're the one lumping all quacks into the same category by suggesting all the homeopathy practitioners out there are nutjobs. 

I will respond to other suggestions on treating Harley and will update this thread when the vet has seen him, but have no desire to keep arguing with you Smilie.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry, will decline all further comments, and good luck!
Comments also were directed as to how true homeopathy is defined, which is not one and the same with herbal remedies, alternative medicine, as I certainly believe in many of those
Many people, and perhaps your vet, used that term 'homeopathy' more broadly, to encompass all .natural remedies, and with which I have a lot of agreement


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Acanadianartist.. what was the Vets suggestion and Dx /


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> Acanadianartist.. what was the Vets suggestion and Dx /


We are trying a few things. 

It's not an allergy. He thinks it was viral at one point, and that his immune system just isn't able to shake it completely. 

He did acupuncture, which got Harley coughing immediately, so clearly hit some pressure points. We are trying a homeopathic remedy added to his water daily. It may take 30 days to work so we are monitoring things. He is coughing less, but it's not gone (it's been less than two weeks though). If the homeopathic remedy doesn't work, he recommends we try a bronchodilator which is in powder form. But he'd prefer to kick start Harley's immune system so he can get rid of this cough once and for all. 

I'm also giving spirulina (which can also take about a month to make a difference) and have started giving him pine needle tea. I drink pine needle tea in the winter and it keeps me from getting sick. The stuff has crazy amounts of vitamin C, as well as antioxidants and a few other things. I researched it and you can feed it to horses and dogs as well. Since I have lots of pine trees and make it at home, I figure I have nothing to lose. 

Will let you all know how things go!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Time for an update. Sadly, things have not really improved. A month after the vet has seen him, he's still coughing. Not every day, and only ever in the morning, but this last week was rough. It always seems like the cold weather makes it a lot worse and we had quite a cold spell. 

We tried the homeopathic medication, but were not successful. Honestly, I just think this problem has become so chronic and ingrained, that the homeopathic stuff just isn't enough. The idea was to kick start his immune system, but it didn't work. Maybe worth a try again next fall to prevent the onset of the coughing rather than wait until it's been going on for months and is too far gone. In any case, we are moving to plan B.

Plan B is a bronchodilator in syrup form, the same one Smilie and Chevaux had previously suggested. It's called Ventipulmin. Ventipulmin® Syrup | Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica 

This really treats the symptoms more than the root cause, but we have to do something and this is still better than a steroid. The vet has ordered it in and we should be able to start it in a couple of days. I don't know if he can take it and compete, but I guess that's something we'll have to deal with down the road. For now, I think we have to stop the coughing. 

Thoughts from those who have tried it before? I don't like the side effects, but I suppose any meds will have side effects. Again, this is better than steroids. However, I will be watching him very closely for the first few doses.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Thoughts from those who have tried it before? I don't like the side effects, but I suppose any meds will have side effects. Again, this is better than steroids. However, I will be watching him very closely for the first few doses.


I've known several horses taking this medication and only heard positive things and no mention of issues with side effects.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> I've known several horses taking this medication and only heard positive things and no mention of issues with side effects.


Good to hear. But having done some reading on it, I do understand it could potentially be used as a performance enhancer. That means I likely cannot give it to him within 24 hours of a competition. My daughter plans on doing some walk/trot/canter equitation classes with him this summer, so we'll have to figure that out. The plan is not to keep him on it any longer than we have to. Usually this clears up in the spring once the nice weather rolls around, so hopefully that will be the case again this year and we can take him off the meds. Not sure if there is a weaning off period like with Dex, but will find out.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Good luck! I hope it helps him. Do they typically test at the shows your daughter goes to? It wouldn't think it would make much difference at her level...it's not like it's grand prix show jumping. I've never heard of testing at local shows, but maybe it happens and I don't know it.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Jan1975 said:


> Good luck! I hope it helps him. Do they typically test at the shows your daughter goes to? It wouldn't think it would make much difference at her level...it's not like it's grand prix show jumping. I've never heard of testing at local shows, but maybe it happens and I don't know it.


No, they don't test.  But she does Equine Canada sanctioned shows, so technically, they could test if they wanted to. And I'd rather play by the rules, even if it wouldn't give Harley an advantage since, as you put it, it's not grand prix show jumping!


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> No, they don't test.  But she does Equine Canada sanctioned shows, so technically, they could test if they wanted to. And I'd rather play by the rules, even if it wouldn't give Harley an advantage since, as you put it, it's not grand prix show jumping!


I get it, I'm totally a rule follower as well!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Starting Harley on Ventipulmin tonight. Will set up the camera in his stall to monitor any changes and figure out whether I need to adjust dosage. I didn't get to chat with the vet about it, and since he hasn't treated horses in a while, I suspect he would just say to follow recommended dosage. Only the sheet that came with the bottle and the website differ. The website says 0.5 ml per 100 lbs (so 4-5 ml for Harley) and the sheet that came with the bottle says 4 ml per 125 kg (so about 12 ml). Given that if I follow the latter, this 160$ bottle will only last me 2 weeks, I will start with the lower dosage. 

According to the website, it should be given for 30 days and then the horse should be re-evaluated. I'll monitor how things are going and check with the vet again if necessary. A lot of people commenting on it online say they just give 5 ml whenever the horse gets wheezy or coughs. I don't think horses are supposed to be on it indefinitely. But given that he's been coughing for several weeks now, I figure I should probably load him up for at least two weeks before I even think about taking him off it. 

I know it sounds like I don't know what I'm doing. Please keep in mind there are no equine vets here. It's either a livestock vet (who goes straight to Dex) or a small animal vet. My small animal vet used to be a horse vet and was able to provide me with a lot of alternative options that the livestock vet never even brought up. I trust him, but prefer to do my own research as well. 

I do wonder about weaning off... will it have to be done gradually or can I just stop giving it to him? That's something I'll have to discuss with the vet I guess. For now, I'm eager to start Harley on this in the hopes it will knock out the coughing for the season. In a month, the weather will be nicer and he usually gets better. 

Wish me luck.


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Starting Harley on Ventipulmin tonight. Will set up the camera in his stall to monitor any changes and figure out whether I need to adjust dosage. I didn't get to chat with the vet about it, and since he hasn't treated horses in a while, I suspect he would just say to follow recommended dosage. Only the sheet that came with the bottle and the website differ. The website says 0.5 ml per 100 lbs (so 4-5 ml for Harley) and the sheet that came with the bottle says 4 ml per 125 kg (so about 12 ml). Given that if I follow the latter, this 160$ bottle will only last me 2 weeks, I will start with the lower dosage.
> 
> According to the website, it should be given for 30 days and then the horse should be re-evaluated. I'll monitor how things are going and check with the vet again if necessary. A lot of people commenting on it online say they just give 5 ml whenever the horse gets wheezy or coughs. I don't think horses are supposed to be on it indefinitely. But given that he's been coughing for several weeks now, I figure I should probably load him up for at least two weeks before I even think about taking him off it.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I haven't read your whole thread, but I thought I'd chime in on the Ventipulmin.

We use it where I work for horses that have respiratory flare ups, and it was measured with a pump provided with the bottle. From what I know, it was roughly 1 pump per 100kg, and I think the pump measured about 4ml?

We never really weaned the horses off it, but just stopped the course of medication. I'm sorry you have to struggle with no equine vets, I count myself very lucky that at my place of work, we have a team of seven specialist equine vets on call, with someone being available 24/7, as well as a highly skilled team of vet nurses. I can't count the number of times I've just rung our vet unit in a panic, and had a vet on site within the half hour.

Good luck!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Found this, which is FAR more useful than anything else I've seen so posting it here, partly as a reminder to myself! 

Dosage Schedule:

Initial dosage: administer 0.5 mL/100 lbs (0.8 mcg/kg) for 3 days (6 treatments);

If no improvement, administer 1.0 mL/100 lbs (1.6 mcg/kg) for 3 days (6 treatments);

If no improvement, administer 1.5 mL/100 lbs (2.4 mcg/kg) for 3 days (6 treatments);

If no improvement, administer 2.0 mL/100 lbs (3.2 mcg/kg) for 3 days (6 treatments);

If no improvement, horse is non-responder to clenbuterol and treatment should be discontinued.

https://www.drugs.com/vet/ventipulmin-syrup.html


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

IndiesaurusRex said:


> Sorry, I haven't read your whole thread, but I thought I'd chime in on the Ventipulmin.
> 
> We use it where I work for horses that have respiratory flare ups, and it was measured with a pump provided with the bottle. From what I know, it was roughly 1 pump per 100kg, and I think the pump measured about 4ml?
> 
> ...


Thank you Indiesaurus Rex! As posted right below your reply, I found a very useful dosage chart that recommends starting with a low dose and then increasing until you hit the appropriate dosage for the horse. Given that a) I don't know how Harley will react and b) his COPD is likely very mild, it seems like the safe thing to do.


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Thank you Indiesaurus Rex! As posted right below your reply, I found a very useful dosage chart that recommends starting with a low dose and then increasing until you hit the appropriate dosage for the horse. Given that a) I don't know how Harley will react and b) his COPD is likely very mild, it seems like the safe thing to do.


That looks like a good plan! My non veterinary knowledge knows of three drug treatments for RAO - steroid inhalers (I think fluticasone?), ventipulmin syrup orally, and IV ventipulmin. I've only known the IV used in acute cases of respiratory distress (the one that springs to mind is the rather overweight cob with a heart murmur that got terrorised on the field and was struggling to breath).

Good luck, and I hope Harley feels better soon!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Administered the 6th treatment this morning. For the first two days, I noted no coughing at all. He seemed to have improved (though I am having trouble with my night camera so cannot confirm that he is not coughing at night). Last night, around 6 pm, I noticed he was making grunting noises and stretching his neck out, then coughing. He also appeared to be "chewing his cud", ie, masticating without having any hay to eat (last hay was given about an hour prior). I massaged his throat, worried about choke, and waited. He wasn't worked up or stressed, just stood there, grinding his teeth mostly. Within a few minutes, this seemed to pass. Was fed soaked hay cubes with Ventipulmin at 6:30. No coughing after that. I wonder if the behavior was due to the Ventipulmin wearing off just before the next dose was to be administered. Will also bring in the vet to do his teeth as he is likely due to have them floated. He might have just had a piece of hay stuck between his teeth or in his throat. It was not observed again. 

This morning, he coughed twice. So I am moving to the increased dosage for days 4-6. 1 ml/100 lb. I hope this will do it, but am worried about the behavior I noticed last night. Otherwise, am not noting any of the typical side-effects. No trembling, no sweating, no increased respiratory or heart rate. He seemed to have a little less appetite this morning (ie, he didn't attack his hay like he hadn't eaten in a week), but he's still eating (not like him to pass up food - EVER). Honestly, he's pretty fat so a slight decrease in appetite doesn't worry me. It's not like he's leaving food laying around or anything, he's just not as voracious as usual.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

We have now completed day 6 of the Ventipulmin treatment. The first three days, I gave him 0.5 ml/100 lbs twice a day. Days 4-6 I gave him 1 ml/100 lbs. I think I'm going to keep him at that dosage. 

To recap, I have been monitoring his coughing at night using motion-sensor cameras. He coughs the most after he's laid down to sleep. He was coughing so much initially, he would only lay down for a few minutes at a time, which tells me the coughing was probably causing him so much discomfort that he had to get up on his feet to clear his lungs, and this was interfering with his REM sleep. From what I've read, they should get about 40 minutes of sleep laying down each night (this varies by horse of course). Night camera footage from day 3 at the 0.5 ml dosage revealed he had two longer, laying down naps of 37 minutes and 36 minutes each, which is a big improvement. However, after the second long nap, he coughed 5 times. So I increased the dosage starting on day 4.

Coughing during the daytime hours has completely disappeared, even when exercised. He is no longer getting the Respi-free syrup and in the past, when I have run out of it, within a day he was coughing very badly again. So the Ventipulmin is working a little better than the Respi-free and will hopefully have a more permanent effect that the Respi-free, which is just an herbal product that helps with the symptoms. 

Last night's camera footage revealed that he slept laying down for 45 minutes. After the long nap, he only coughed once, sort of a throat clearing cough, then snorted, then was fine. No other coughing was noted at any other time, and we spent hours in the barn yesterday. While we have not completely eliminated the coughing, I think it is a vast improvement so my thoughts are that this is the right dosage and I should continue for the rest of the 30 days at this dosage. 

Any thoughts from anyone else having used Ventipulmin, or who has experience with COPD horses, would be very much appreciated!


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

It sounds like it's working really well and that he's able to get some sleep! Yay!


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