# the ethics of breeding amidst overpopulation - opinions?



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Overpopulation in the U.S. became a big deal when the slaughter industry was shut down. Agree or disagree, with that avenue gone the number of horses that are uncared for or unwanted for whatever reason climbed. There are too many horses and not enough people to care for them in a responsible manner. Is that going to stop those breeding - no. Many don't see further than the baby they are pinning their hopes to and not the baby that didn't turn out to be what they wanted.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I have to agree with the above post. Not ALL of the reason, but some of it. Maybe most of it. 
People have a funny tendancy to think that breeding horses is profitable. It isn't. LOL 
I spend WAY more on my horses then I make on them. I had four foals this year - two are looking at going to my trainer as three year olds if they haven't sold, one I am marketing as an endurance gelding, the other a western gelding. I have the resources to keep them here until they find a good home. I still have my 2013 babies here. One is a keeper, two boys are for sale. I don't NEED to move them and I can keep them here until I get that home for them. I know my limits of what I can have and what I can't (even though my heart says "BUY THAT ONE!!" :lol: )
With one stallion in training and the next heading out this summer, I think I am good with what I have for awhile. Unless, you know.... "Hey, honey..." 
But in all honesty, you don't make money unless you have a massive capital to start off with, enough you can compare with the people at the top because it's almost a political game at times. 
And maybe we need to stop breeding 40+ mares to get that one National Champion. 

So, if you have the time, money, resources, and knowledge, go ahead. I am not "pro-breeding" nor am I "Anti-Breeding". I think it's your personal option to breed mare to stallion and I have no say. I think maybe too many people don't know what they are really getting into, though.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

There are responsible dog breeders who strive to improve a dog breed or natural ability (herding, guarding, tracking, etc), who are very selective with their breeding program and who they sell puppies to. Sadly, the majority of dog breeders are either puppy mills, owners who just love how cute puppies are or owners that aren't responsible to make sure their dog is spayed/neutered because they don't have the means to care for puppies and/or their dog is not of good quality for breeding (ill tempered, poor health, genetic problems, etc). 

The over population in dogs is not from the careful and selective breeder who breeds with a purpose. The same is true in the horse industry, there are the same types of breeders among horse owners, including some who actually do "let them run wild" or dump them somewhere anonymously when they can't care for them. Most mares and stallions are not breeding quality, but you will still find owners happily breeding horses whether or not they can even afford to feed the horse they bred. The happily ignorant who think that a foal is the cutest thing ever and treat it like a puppy because it is just a baby, then they find that their adorable foal has become a 1200 lb disrespectful monster who is too dangerous to handle. 

The problem with a flooded horse market and rescues being full is more of a problem with humans which causes the abuse, neglect, starvation, not gelding colts, change in income, hay prices, etc. Horse slaughter may not have been a happy place for horses to be sent, but it did provide a way out for owners unable to handle or care for a horse no one wants. It could be a monster they created as a cute foal or countless other issues that no one else would want. Some things are out of out control, accidents happen and horses get severely injured even if we bubble wrap them. Sad to see how many stallions I have seen advertised really cheap for sale because the colt with no papers broke his shoulder or hip as a youngester and so he was never gelded... Why do people who think their poorly put together grade colt needs to be a breeding stallion because he cannot be ridden? Every foal is cute and adorable to look at but they are more work than more people realize and have to be treated as a full grown horse with severe ADHD. A cute and adorable foal could also end up looking like a hippo crossed with a giraffe when they mature. 

OP, if you are really curious about all the breeding talk you hear at the barn you are at, smile and ask, "what are your plans for the foal?" This simple question will let you know if they actually have a plan or just want a baby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

I stopped breeding 4 years ago. I also sold most of my horses. I am now considering very strongly gelding my stallion. HE would be a happier boy turned out.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

somebody must make a profit breeding, otherwise no one would do it.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

I never really made any profit in the 30 years of breeding. I did it for the love of the breed.


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## BigNickMontana (Aug 5, 2013)

I look at it like this, there are responsible breeders and then there are greedy Alpha Sierra Sierra Holes. 

No matter what it is in, dogs, cats, rabbits, horses, cows or Siberian tigers, there are always those folks who will breed everything they can as fast as they can consequences be ****ed. 

There are also the folks who make bad choices in breeding, and the accidental breeding's, but by in large it is the irresponsible people who seek to make a profit. 

I have a pure bred in tact German Shepherd, I don't know how many times I have been out walking my dog and had an absolute stranger pull up in a car and offer me money to breed him to their dog. 

I have always declined because I know what the deal is, they don't care about the health or temperament of the pups, they care about getting paid. They can sell those puppies for $500-1000.00 each, they make money. And **** good money, but all too often those dogs have temperament and health issues and wind up in bad homes, and then they become problems. 

So it really boils down to what the persons motivations and ultimately what the outcome will be. 

If you can breed a horse, and you can provide a good home for it, or you can get it into a good home, I don't see the issue.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I breed a little bit now. I used to breed and show a lot but have cut way back on all of it. I think a lot of folks are in denial that external issues can affect you're ability to care for what you breed. I've never been a huge breeder, about 10 was my average each year. The bottom fell out of the market in the 80's and I haven't bred more than 5 a year since then. Now I'm down to 1 or 2 every other or every 3rd year because I will not breed if I can't afford to keep what I have on the ground already for ever. 

Right now I have some young horses, both bred and bought, that I want trained to saddle because I've always insisted that my stock be useful other than for halter or breeding. So, I have a gelding to send out for breaking this year and 2 fillies that need it as well. They aren't as urgent because the fillies aren't for sale but the gelding will be when he's good for something. I have 3 adults who are saddlebroke and need riding regularly. One broodmare that I allow to just be a broodie because she was 10 when I bought her and I just kind of feel like she's earned her right to just breed when I want a baby from her. Otherwise, she can be a pasture puff. And I have her weanling colt that I'm raising until he's old enough to train and sell. 

I'm contemplating breeding 1 mare this year but I still haven't decided for sure. We'll see how things are progressing come March-ish. I do have outside mares booked to my stallion and will obviously, breed them but the foals won't be mine. 

So, do I feel ok for breeding despite the over population of horses? Yes, I do. I'm prepared to keep every horse I breed and I do keep them until they're of use. I feel the overpopulation comes from people who breed and have no future plan for what they've bred, and I apply that equally to the breeders of 100 plus foals/year and the breeder who only breeds 1 in their lifetime. There is a good market out there for using horses. When I attend sales, the horses who can DO sell for decent money. You're not going to get rich, but you can at least break even on most of what you sell. 

You say, "You can make a champion out of a mutt.". I don't disagree with you as applied to a dog. I don't even disagree with you when you apply it to a "mutt" horse that you adopt from a rescue. I won't touch those horses because I've gotten to the point where I won't touch ANY grown horse that I haven't raised from a baby and trained myself. I'm getting older, get hurt a lot easier and when I raise them and train them myself, I know what I have. I don't have a 1200 lb enigma who might decide to flip over on me or kick my head off. I have my own reasons why I won't touch a rescue horse or support 99% of rescues too, but we can have that discussion privately or on another thread.

The majority of breeders are not in it to make a huge amount of cash. The old axiom, "Do you want to be a millionaire in the horse business? Well, start with 5 million.", totally applies. When I do make a profit, it goes right back into my facilities, so I rarely "make" money if you only think of spending money. Most people breed because they love the horses, they really love raising babies and enjoy all the steps it takes to train them up. 

Sorry to rewrite War N Peace here, but I wanted to give a good, breeder's eye view of things.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I think in todays world breeders need to be even more conscientous about their breeding than ever due to overpopulation. We can argue the 'how' it came about till we're blue in the face but the fact is that it's a problem and one of the steps to solving it is responsible breeding. My boss slowed down her breeding. In the past six years we've bred about three (hopefully four!!) colts/fillies. When choosing mares to pair with her stud we looked at temperament and how good they were at representing the breed. Only three mares made the list. Because of that, of the foals born we have (so far) three outstanding yearlings and one that will (hopefully) be here in the spring. 

I have almost all rescue animals. I've always rescued and always consider rescues first before I consider buying from a breeder. When and if I do buy from a breeder I always make sure that they have good intentions for their stock and are responsible. I don't support farms that in this economy put out ten - god knows how many foals out a year and doesn't care what happens to them, or the rest of the population. I buy from breeders who breed responsibly and want their babies to get good homes.

I just wanted to add that I believe rescued horses are just as good as 'bred' horses. They have their scars and issues but with a LOT of time and effort they can also be productive and win at shows.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> somebody must make a profit breeding, otherwise no one would do it.


Watch a National Championship? The political who's who at he end of the lead shank makes the dollars, conformation aside.
Be is Halter, Reining, any Pleasure. Least the last few years.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

WSArabians said:


> Watch a National Championship? The political who's who at he end of the lead shank makes the dollars, conformation aside.
> Be is Halter, Reining, any Pleasure. Least the last few years.


This is the very reason I am not impressed with most show records. Who trained the horse and rides it has as much to do with winning as the horses ability.

I breed for a hobby and am willing to keep the foals I produce until they find a good home. My main purpose is to breed replacements for my broodmares.
there will always be a market and demand for a good horse that is trained well and has a good temperament.
The market is improving and I predict in the near future those of us with good breeding stock will see a return on our investments and increased demand along with good prices for the foals we produce. Shalom


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> This is the very reason I am not impressed with most show records. Who trained the horse and rides it has as much to do with winning as the horses ability.
> 
> I breed for a hobby and am willing to keep the foals I produce until they find a good home. My main purpose is to breed replacements for my broodmares.
> there will always be a market and demand for a good horse that is trained well and has a good temperament.
> The market is improving and I predict in the near future those of us with good breeding stock will see a return on our investments and increased demand along with good prices for the foals we produce. Shalom


I agree Donald. I am of the same opinion. I don't plan to make money- I enjoy my horses. Period. I can, and will, keep them until they have great homes. We didn't have any issue selling one of Dream's colts- to an international buyer - and we have not advertised either as of yet. I am keeping the others, and plan several breedings this year.
I've got my breeding stock, and I'm very happy with what I have. :wink:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As said, there are responsible breeders and for every responsible one there are probably three who decide to breed just because they have a mare. 

There will always be a market for good, sound well bred, conformationally correct horses, especially those bred to mares and studs that have good performance records. Not talking so much about show records as they are often a case of not how good your horse is but who you know!


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

If a person chooses to breed an animal it's their business and not mine or anyone else's. 

If a person neglects or abuses their animals then that's a different subject.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

JCnGrace said:


> If a person chooses to breed an animal it's their business and not mine or anyone else's.
> 
> If a person neglects or abuses their animals then that's a different subject.


I am not sorry to say I dosagree with you.

To breed from any animal takes responsibility. It needs to be carefully considered and, with so many horses on the market and prices down so low, costs must be taken into consideration. 

What is the point of breeding a poorly conformed horse to another the same? It is asking for trouble with unsoundness. 

It is even worse with dogs, so many people breed because the thought of having eight pups to sell at inflated prices seems a good deal. No or little thought is given to the homes those pups will go to. 

Much the same with humans, the idea is great, the responsibility is not.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I am fairly certain that I will never breed a horse; I will always buy horses already on the ground. I simply have no need for something that young, except maybe to ogle over how cute it is xD

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to breeding. I think only the most pristine examples of an animal should be bred. 

But! That's just my opinion, and my opinion reflects that my actions in the horse world <3


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

JCnGrace said:


> If a person chooses to breed an animal it's their business and not mine or anyone else's.
> 
> If a person neglects or abuses their animals then that's a different subject.


While we cannot stop someone from breeding, we can disagree with their choice whether or not it is our personal business. Many frame carriers are bred to frame carriers every year, resulting in many foals that are doomed to die and are either humanely euthanized or let to die naturally in a slow and painful way. With all the foals born with awful genetic diseases which effects their life, soundness, health, mind, or usability, there are certainly reasons we can speak up about someone's choice in breeding. 25% chance is not a low risk in breeding two carriers of frame or a genetic disease. 

If someone is breeding a rank sociopath mare believing they will get a foal that will be a complete angel or that it will somehow magically fix the mare's mentality, they need someone to wake them up from a daydream for their own safety. 

It is also too common that someone just wants a baby to play with and plan to sell as a weanling when they are no longer cute and little. 

Just the other day, I saw someone post in a Facebook group looking to buy a young cheap/inexpensive colt/stallion as company for their horse. They didn't have a trailer and couldn't afford shipping so needed someone to deliver the horse as well. Some questions were asked and it was revealed that they wanted a young intact male for their 3-4 year old filly that was basically given to them. Yet many kept sending this person information on young colts they had that fit this person's desires. No questioning if they had experience with stallion handling, good fencing or anything related to breeding knowledge as this person was very inexperienced with horses. So between someone wanting to save them self from paying to geld a colt that should be gelded and someone wanting a breeding pair of cheap/inexpensive quality horses because mares and stallions make the best pasture buddies (haha), you get the kind of foal that is given away for free on craigslist. It is like a dog lover who picks up free/cheap dogs and then breeds then with no consideration of what they are breeding, but puppies are cute. 

You don't need to neglect or abuse a horse to be a problem. My younger sister worked at a horse rescue and they were contacted by a breeder who needed help finding homes for his horses. None were abused or neglected, but they weren't even halter broke either. This breeder had started with registered Arabians but had let his herd of many mares and a few stallions run together for so long, there were no papers, no knowing who sire or dam were, bad conformation, hardly ever touched, pregnant mares that were bred at some point but no idea when or who the daddy was. Any breeder can be a problem when they no longer want everything they bred and have produced horses that are only worth their weight in meat until someone else invests time/money into training.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## altheablue18 (Dec 15, 2014)

JCnGrace said:


> If a person chooses to breed an animal it's their business and not mine or anyone else's.
> 
> If a person neglects or abuses their animals then that's a different subject.



No offense to you, but I do feel strongly that it's this mentality that led to the situation we are in now with dogs. It's my business as a shelter worker because literally thousands of dogs were dying needlessly at my shelter every few months. Many of them were purebreds. Many of them were offspring of purebreds. Animal control picked up the unwanted or neglected ones, and animal control was paid for by taxpayers. My shelter took the brunt of the anger of the public for 'killing the poor furbabies' (we were a county shelter, not a no kill) but I would rather euthanize than watch an animal go crazy in confinement with insufficient mental or physical stimulation. So yes, I do feel its the business of the community to consider the wider implications of the individual owner creating more life. I didn't want to get into the dog side of things but that's what I know. And I know even those who call themselves 'responsible breeders' who 'love the breed' are contributing to the problem on some level. 

Again I'm not saying dogs and horses are the same. I am 100% certain that any family can find a suitable pet at an animal shelter vs. purchasing one from a store or breeder; the same cannot be said of a 1500 pound animal who has had no training or improper training, or has conformational issues which would limit its ability to be useful (and a horse is a work animal, where in most cases dogs are just companions, so the standards are much higher and rightly so given the cost to maintain a horse). So homeless, untrained horses are more difficult and it makes more sense to buy than to adopt in many cases. But I do think we need to be mindful of our role in the plight of the horse in North America. 

anyway great conversation all, I appreciate reading everyone's opinions and am glad folks are thinking about the topic so much!


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

I tend to agree that fewer horses should be bred, however, if no responsible breeders are out there improving horses for specific disciplines, where will that leave the horse population down the road? If ALL horses are the poorly put together back yard bred crap I see in sale barns today, then we'll all be less successful at our sports and have much larger vet bills than we do now. I have ridden a ton of these kinds of horses, and as sweet as they may be, even for something like ranch work, they have nothing on a purpose bred well conformed animal. It is heartbreaking to keep and love horses who don't hold up.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

once upon a time i thought about breeding a mare. on the ranch i lived on i loved playing with the foals (the mare was ok with me playing with her days old foal too lol! best thing for a horse crazy teen!). but now that i have learnt so much with my more and about the horse world, i dont think i could ever do it. I always wanted to have a small herd of the best Kiger Mustangs and breed them. But i dont know if i could now. I would get weanlings and raise them and that would be enough for me.

and just for funs here are the type of Kigers im talking about.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I am not sorry to say I dosagree with you.
> 
> To breed from any animal takes responsibility. It needs to be carefully considered and, with so many horses on the market and prices down so low, costs must be taken into consideration.
> 
> ...


Humans keep breeding and breeding, with no thought ever given to genetics, or whether they can afford the offspring, and most people think its ok. And many of the results of this breeding has very little value, and is instead a burden on society. I'd rather people bred horses. At least you CAN eat them.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Very good thread. My only interest in breeding was after I bought my KMHSA mare, who was 10yo at the time and had dropped 4 healthy foals. I wanted to breed her bc I knew that she would let me play with her foal bc I spent 5 days at a CW Event with the seller, and he told me so, as he had bought her when she was weaned and he bred her.
I waited too long to really seriously breed her, but what nagged me was the possibility that I might lose HER, so I decided not to.
There are many things to take into consideration if you decide to breed. Is your mare worth breeding? (My Vet tells me that my mare is built well for breeding bc everything is in place. Some mares will defecate into their vulva and have other problems with their builds that makes it dangerous.)
Can you keep and care for the foal? Glad to hear that that is what many of you here do. I had intended to keep the foal.
How are you going to wean the foal?
How are you going to keep the foal healthy and not injured while the bones are growing and how are you going to do this while you train them?
Young horses can get permanent injuries that lame them. "Buster Brown", grade QH, result of a backyard breeder, was dropped off with his dam at the rescue as a foal. He left the rescue for my place, and their grounds had the typical old farm garbage, and Buster came with an inch long chip in his LR hoof. My farrier has trimmed and shaped it, he IS sound, but you can still see where the injury was, almost 6 years later. HE also has a healed over 1/4" cut on his L eye, upper lid. There is no weeping, he is not shy to it, NOBODY at the rescue could tell me how it happened, but it happened and this horse must live with it. You have to treat these foals like china dishes and train like a drill sergeant. Leaving them alone in a field won't sell that foal.
It's too much of an investment for me, and I'm not new to horses. Even when the economy was good I would see nice horses auction for meat for one reason or another. Good or bad breeding isn't a guarantee of a long life. GOOD TRAINING and a fully broken horse is much more likely to a long life. Still, why do I want to buy a poorly bred animal and spend time training it? Just some food for thought.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

squirrelfood said:


> Humans keep breeding and breeding, with no thought ever given to genetics, or whether they can afford the offspring, and most people think its ok. And many of the results of this breeding has very little value, and is instead a burden on society. I'd rather people bred horses. At least you CAN eat them.


While you can eat them, I don't think I could :?
I can't bring myself to eat lambs, goats or rabbits either. Cows, pigs and chickens or other poultry, those are on my dinner table frequently :lol:

We can control which horses are reproducing, test genetics before breeding and choose different matches with no regard to a horse's "feelings" or "emotions" about whether they have babies or not. We can always wish we could have half as much control and force our own ideas about our own society's reproduction and moral values, it is not ethical is do so. Just like we cannot force someone to geld a stallion running with mares and producing ill tempered or genetic disaster foals. We can try to kindly educate others to be wiser but they still have the freedom to choose and there are always consequences.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I have never bred a horse, and can't imagine any realistic scenario where I would, given my skills and experience. So my opinion is not worth much on this topic... 

But, just the other day, I was really surprised after having a similar conversation with someone at the barn where I board. She was offered a great gelding that she really likes for next to nothing, but ultimately decided not to take him, for a lot of reasons. But one thing she said stuck with me, and that was that she'd never want to own a gelding, since once he could no longer work, she'd be stuck with a pasture ornament- _where if you had a mare that became unsound or could no longer work, at least you could breed her. _That just seemed really shocking to me, that the assumption is that a mare would earn her keep one way or another, either through riding or breeding.

I don't mean to pick on this girl, she has a ton more horse experience than me and would probably be looking to own the types of mares that are successful and well conformed enough that breeding might be a viable option. But it's just such a different way of thinking about the purpose of a horse...


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## altheablue18 (Dec 15, 2014)

> Humans keep breeding and breeding, with no thought ever given to genetics, or whether they can afford the offspring, and most people think its ok. And many of the results of this breeding has very little value, and is instead a burden on society. I'd rather people bred horses. At least you CAN eat them.


^I thought about bringing this up too. I dont know the 'most people' you refer to; it isn't me or most of my friends. I dont think we need to be planning human reproduction based on genetics (I'm not a Nazi) but I do feel very strongly about human overpopulation. I am in my 30s and dont have or want kids. I see so many of my peers 'breeding' irresponsibly and it really irks me the way America gives them preferential treatment because no one wants to have a criticism be construed as 'anti-family'. As with horses, if you don't hav_e _a well-thought out plan for the future and you don't have the means _or the willingness to sacrifice to come up with the means_ (without being a burden to society) to provide for a child (or pup, or foal), I dont think you should be creating life of any species. But I am probably digressing into general life philosophy and maybe that is for another forum.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

egrogan said:


> I have never bred a horse, and can't imagine any realistic scenario where I would, given my skills and experience. So my opinion is not worth much on this topic...
> 
> But, just the other day, I was really surprised after having a similar conversation with someone at the barn where I board. She was offered a great gelding that she really likes for next to nothing, but ultimately decided not to take him, for a lot of reasons. But one thing she said stuck with me, and that was that she'd never want to own a gelding, since once he could no longer work, she'd be stuck with a pasture ornament- _where if you had a mare that became unsound or could no longer work, at least you could breed her. _That just seemed really shocking to me, that the assumption is that a mare would earn her keep one way or another, either through riding or breeding.
> 
> I don't mean to pick on this girl, she has a ton more horse experience than me and would probably be looking to own the types of mares that are successful and well conformed enough that breeding might be a viable option. But it's just such a different way of thinking about the purpose of a horse...


That reminds me of my sister's gelding, she took him to be boarded at a really nice stable, very nice horses of the best breeding and the stalls kept so clean it was like they cleaned them nonstop all day. Now my sister's gelding was beautiful, sired by a beautiful old Arabian stallion with really old bloodlines and out of a grade mare (sired by a registered quarter horse and out of a grade arabian mare bought at auction for $50). This gelding was beautiful and breathtaking, the owners of the barn fell in love with him. They told my sister that if he was a mare, they would pay whatever it took to get her to sell. For them, training and having a job didn't matter, they saw something they wanted to reproduce. 

Mares can also end up as pasture puffs at the end of a performance career. Just because they have the parts, doesn't mean they are fertile or capable of carrying to full term, especially when they are older. Retired geldings usually make great babysitters or pasture companions, so there is always a place for a good solid gelding with manners.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Breeding not only has to take in the factor of the cost.
Not only is there the stud fee there should also be swabbing the mare for cleanliness, vets fees for swabbing and for examining to see if she is ovulating is not using live cover.
Scanning to see if she is in foal, scanning later to makes sure she is not carrying twins. 

Then there is loss of use. 

So you have a foal on the floor, hopefully all is well. You then have to keep that foal with ensuing expenses for three or four years. 

It all adds up even without counting the time you spend with the youngster.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

SunnyDraco said:


> While you can eat them, I don't think I could :?
> I can't bring myself to eat lambs, goats or rabbits either. Cows, pigs and chickens or other poultry, those are on my dinner table frequently :lol:
> 
> We can control which horses are reproducing, test genetics before breeding and choose different matches with no regard to a horse's "feelings" or "emotions" about whether they have babies or not. We can always wish we could have half as much control and force our own ideas about our own society's reproduction and moral values, it is not ethical is do so. Just like we cannot force someone to geld a stallion running with mares and producing ill tempered or genetic disaster foals. We can try to kindly educate others to be wiser but they still have the freedom to choose and there are always consequences.


I have been very hungry more than once in my life. I found I can eat just about anything.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

altheablue18 said:


> ^I thought about bringing this up too. I dont know the 'most people' you refer to; it isn't me or most of my friends. I dont think we need to be planning human reproduction based on genetics (I'm not a Nazi) but I do feel very strongly about human overpopulation. I am in my 30s and dont have or want kids. I see so many of my peers 'breeding' irresponsibly and it really irks me the way America gives them preferential treatment because no one wants to have a criticism be construed as 'anti-family'. As with horses, if you don't hav_e _a well-thought out plan for the future and you don't have the means _or the willingness to sacrifice to come up with the means_ (without being a burden to society) to provide for a child (or pup, or foal), I dont think you should be creating life of any species. But I am probably digressing into general life philosophy and maybe that is for another forum.


In my county, almost 2/3 of the families are on food stamps or more, and just about every one of them has 3-4 kids with another on the way, or a pregnant teenage daughter. If it wasn't so easy to get public support, would they stop?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

egrogan said:


> But one thing she said stuck with me, and that was that she'd never want to own a gelding, since once he could no longer work, she'd be stuck with a pasture ornament- _where if you had a mare that became unsound or could no longer work, at least you could breed her. _


I'm all for horses earning their keep, one way or another, whether it be as a lovely riding horse, a halter horse, a polo pony, racing at the track, or as a broodmare or stallion. But....and it's a big BUT, I would never use a broodmare who broke down as a breeding animal. That implies a weakness that needs to be corrected. 

My parents bred thoroughbreds for the track and I saw that mentality every day and every day I saw horses that couldn't hold up because of it. Mare breaks down at the track at 2 1/2, no problem bring her home and breed her to Soandso and sell the foal at the Keenland sale. The problem was, if you couldn't correct the underlying conformation issue and fix it, you were just breeding more horses to breakdown and perpetuating the problem. If one of ours broke down we not only didn't use that filly as a broodmare, after a couple of them broke down, we didn't repeat a particular cross. We were always trying to improve our soundness. I've carried a lot of my folks philosophies over to my own breeding, even though I don't breed for the track. 

Every horse that I've kept as a riding horse, I've kept sound up into their 20's at the very least. You can't have that with critical conformation issues. I may not get to ride now like I did when I was a kid, but when I ride, I RIDE. I show all day, go out on trail the next day, ALL DAY, up hill, down dale, through water, and across sand or mud or rocks, doesn't matter. And most of the time I do it barefoot. Hooves are another pet peeve of mine. You have to have good hooves and take care of them. 

So, even if you think in the beginning, that it was just an accident and the injury didn't have anything to do with conformation, I think you have to question that. What kind of injury was it? Was there an underlying confo issue that made it worse? Or if there hadn't been a confo issue, would it have less of an injury? If you're not willing to really LOOK at how your horses are built and take them apart mentally, then I think probably you shouldn't be breeding.


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## altheablue18 (Dec 15, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm all for horses earning their keep, one way or another, whether it be as a lovely riding horse, a halter horse, a polo pony, racing at the track, or as a broodmare or stallion.


But if you take on the responsibility of a horse-be it a champion, a pleasure or trail horse, horse, a prospect, a broodmare, or whatever, and the horse later becomes 'worthless' in terms of financial gain and/or use, what then is your responsibility to the animal? What then is the responsibility of the larger horse community to that life (and does it change based on what the horse has or has not earned or produced in its lifetime)? Even a very well bred horse can become a pasture ornament in the case of a barn or trailer accident or whatever. What then, if the owner only has room for 2 horses and the reason the owner has horses at all is to be able to ride/show them? 

Just another philosophical question related to population and responsibility...not a judgment or accusation...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

altheablue18 said:


> But if you take on the responsibility of a horse-be it a champion, a pleasure or trail horse, horse, a prospect, a broodmare, or whatever, and the horse later becomes 'worthless' in terms of financial gain and/or use, what then is your responsibility to the animal? What then is the responsibility of the larger horse community to that life (and does it change based on what the horse has or has not earned or produced in its lifetime)? Even a very well bred horse can become a pasture ornament in the case of a barn or trailer accident or whatever. What then, if the owner only has room for 2 horses and the reason the owner has horses at all is to be able to ride/show them?
> 
> Just another philosophical question related to population and responsibility...not a judgment or accusation...


I can only control myself and my actions. 

I have a filly that I bought to see how she would cross with my stallion. I bought her as a 2 year old and have had her for almost 2 years, just giving her time to grow. This past summer she got a horrendous injury and I wasn't sure if she'd be sound at the end of it. I'm still not positive. She's broodmare sound so she can be bred, but I don't know if she'll ever be rideable. I intend to find out this summer. If she is not sound for riding, she'll remain here, a well loved ornament, until she dies. If she's also sound for riding, then she'll have a discipline and if I don't care for what she does with the stallion, she can go on and have a career. I have 2 others that are ready to start this year, a gelding who will be started and sold, and another filly I bought as a yearling to cross on my stallion. She'll be started this year and probably be given another year or maybe 2 before I try to breed her. 

Let's just run through the list: 

Stallion - Skip N My Assets, 5 yr old, ridden western dressage & pleasure, breeding, doubtful that he will ever be sold

Gelding - SVS Il Divo, 9 yr old, ridden western dressage, hunter pleasure, western pleasure, trail, he will never be sold

Gelding - Bodacious Okie Gunner 2 yr old, will be started and sold. 

Filly - Shiner's Moon Dance 4 yr old, was bought as a 2 yr old to see how she'd cross with my stallion when she was old enough. Got a horrendous injury last year (T post through her knee) and I don't know if she'll be sound to ride. If not, she'll stay here til she dies, a very well loved pasture puff. If she's sound for riding, she can have a career in addition to having a baby or 2 for me. I doubt I'll ever sell this one, she has her grand daddy's disposition and is just SWEET. Not to mention, cute. 

Filly - Laker Smoke, 3 yr old filly, also bought as a yearling to see how she'll do with the stallion when she's old enough to breed. She'll be started under saddle this year too. This is a very athletic and SMART filly, I have a feeling she will never be sold even if I don't like the cross. 

Mare - LA Peppermint Patti, 10 yr old mare, bought just because she was gorgeous, even before I thought of who I might breed her to. She's my riding mare, has had 1 foal for me, was a great mom to him, he was gelded and sold. She will NEVER be sold. 

Mare - Bright As A Star (Honey Boo Boo to her fans), 12 year old mare, broodmare only. She was 10 when I bought her, had never been ridden and I don't think she'd enjoy it anyhow. So, she can be a pasture puff if she stays here long enough to become infertile. Makes great babies, AWESOME mother. 

Foal - Ducati, yearling, plans are to geld, train to saddle and sell. 

I can't really answer your hypothetical question because I'm not in that position. If you can only have 2 horses, and you're sole purpose for owning them, is to ride/show and one becomes disabled then you have to make a decision. For me, if the horse was in no pain just no longer riding sound, I'd try to give him to someone as a pasture mate. If that's not possible or if the horse is still in pain from the injury, or it's a devastating enough injury as to guarantee significant health and pain issues later on, I have no problem with humane euthanasia.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I wanted to add some info on Goldie's (Shiner's Moon Dance) injury but the edit/timer wouldn't let me. So here it is:

Goldie's injury, while devastating and possibly career ending even before she has one, is not due to conformation. She got in a dispute with the dominant mare and the mare ran her through a fence into the neighbor's pasture with another dominant mare. On her way back over the 4 ft fence, she caught the Tpost in her lower leg and it traveled up, through her knee and out the gaskin. It exposed a bunch of critical structure and we thought she might have a small fracture, but it doesn't appear to have been so and everything has filled back in and she runs and plays fine. We'll see if there was more to it than what appears when she goes under saddle. I hope not, I'm still paying for THAT vet bill. She was in the equine hospital for almost a month getting IV antibiotics, wound flushes and pressure checks to make sure the capsule of the joint hadn't been compromised. I can't believe she still likes people after all that.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Another random thought: 

Pasture Puff or Lawn Ornament is a job description too. They're very important and need to be loved on and bring much joy to their owners. Especially applicable to dowager broodies who can no longer produce.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I believe we need more responsible breeders that breed all round quality horses.
Not all the excess horses we see are bred by negligent ignorant mare owners. A good percentage of these unwanted horses are from respectable breeding programs that breed for ONE discipline and only get a few foals each year that meet their standards.
The rest are sold or given away to defray cost or reduce the breeders feed bill..
I only retain fillies. I have no need for a gelding.
As stated earlier if a mare is injured I can at least justify feeding her by breeding her.
With the amount of horses I own I cannot justify a pasture ornament and will not have one. 
I have several mares in their late twenties to mid thirties that are retired. They can live here as long as they can maintain good condition on senior feed and maybe a joint supplement. I am unwilling to spend much more on an animal that is simply taking up space and using funds that a horse that earns it keep might need.
My horses are livestock . I have owned many in the forty plus years I have ridden and only the first few were never treated as livestock. Shalom


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

While I agree with what a lot of you say about responsible breeding, I will always stand on the side of the person who wants to breed their animal for whatever purpose. Do any of you ever consider the consequences of there being laws about breeding or inspection requirements? How many of us would be able to afford horses if this were to happen? Who do you think would be issued permits to breed if they were required? I guarantee it wouldn't be the person with the best horses only the person with the most money who was willing to grease some palms. You think the genetic issues are bad now they'd only get worse with a more limited gene pool. Think about all the breeds that wouldn't exist today if a little experimenting wasn't allowed. 

In my perfect world everyone who owned an animal would responsible for and considerate of that animal but I'm not willing to go to the place that would set any kind of limits because of the chain reaction that would set off. I for one do not want to live in a nanny state. Heck, I'm stilled totally po'd about having to wear a seatbelt.


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## Kotori (Jun 18, 2012)

I think that our responsibility to horses is to give them the best chance possible of going to good homes. That doesn't always mean that they will, but a well-built horse will always be more in demand than a poor built horse. 

I wish that all horses in bad situation was a certain type, so we could point and say 'don't breed that kind of horse' but even really valuable horses get neglected.

I think the mentality of 'breed the mare if nothing else' is how we end up with crazy horses. Bad temperament? genetic. bad conformation? also genetic. Injury? Is it worth possibly passing that on? If the mare can not handle being in work and is showing great potential, at the minimum, than she isn't worth being bred, period. 

On the other hand, there are certain horses I wish I would see bred more. Working line Shire, Suffolk, old-style morgans, Cream draft have all ended up on the endangered list. That does not mean they are exempt from the above criteria, though some take it that way. 

--Might have more to add tomorrow.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

JCnGrace said:


> While I agree with what a lot of you say about responsible breeding, I will always stand on the side of the person who wants to breed their animal for whatever purpose. Do any of you ever consider the consequences of there being laws about breeding or inspection requirements? How many of us would be able to afford horses if this were to happen? Who do you think would be issued permits to breed if they were required? I guarantee it wouldn't be the person with the best horses only the person with the most money who was willing to grease some palms. You think the genetic issues are bad now they'd only get worse with a more limited gene pool. Think about all the breeds that wouldn't exist today if a little experimenting wasn't allowed.
> 
> In my perfect world everyone who owned an animal would responsible for and considerate of that animal but I'm not willing to go to the place that would set any kind of limits because of the chain reaction that would set off. I for one do not want to live in a nanny state. Heck, I'm stilled totally po'd about having to wear a seatbelt.


The biggest part of responsible breeding is education. Anyone can learn what it takes to be a responsible breeder, but it is a choice if we want to learn or just stay in the old ways and breed anything with a tail and four legs (tail optional). You don't need to have the very best of horses to produce solid good minded foals but you do need to have a plan set in place. I am not against breeding a grade mare who has the temperament and build you want to reproduce for yourself and are prepared for raising, training and all the care needed for that foal. I do have a problem if you want to breed a train wreck just because she has a uterus and "needs a job" or "the mare really wants a baby", doesn't matter what their breeding is. 

I saw a young filly posted in my local craigslist a couple months ago, advertised that she could make an excellent future broodmare to breed a racing champion from... While at the same time they said she should be able to handle light riding but would never hold up to racing training which is why she was for sale. Didn't matter that her dam had produced a stakes winner, this yearling filly had horrible front legs, standing upright and they jutted forward at the knee as a very large glaring conformation fault (you hoped it was just a bad angle and she was starting to walk forward but she was standing square and both knees were equally forward in all the pictures of her standing). Yes, someone out there would breed that filly just for her bloodlines and because she was dirt cheap, but is it the right choice? 

There is clearly a lack of education on many levels, including among stallion owners.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Viranh.. I have seen a lot of back yard horses that were fantastic kids and trail horses.
They are not all crap . Look at some of the things done to the purebred horses..
Halter horses with no feet and bubble butts, downhill build to the extreme, up hill builds to the extreme , tiny tiny feet , short tiny petite horses , heads that belong on a sea horse, upturned nostrils that look like they would drown in a good rain . horses bred for color only or speed .
hundreds of mares bred for that one special race,jumper,cow,reining horse,breeding for that special lineage or name. I have grade horses that are nice animals. I dont need a paper for my horses. I have owned registered horses as well as grade. I have seen registered crap horses at auction and for sale. I own one mare , she came to me almost dead, and she was removed from a breeding farm situation, and this mare should have been put down as a foal ,she has so many faults the best thing you can say about her is she has a cute face cause the rest of her is uggly. But she was bred because of papers and lineage. Its not just the back yard breeders.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Some of the "back yard breeders" actually have much better horses than you see in the showring. They just didn't have the ready cash to promote them. Breeding has become far too much about the money for some folks, and not nearly enough about the horse.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

There was a time that a breeders were given numerous tax concessions, ie basically write off the entire operation. This was a huge bonus for the wealthy as they could write of a good chunk of their income rather than paying taxes. Kenny Rogers was one, his barns sit empty now as the laws were repealed. He raised some of the best Arabians in the US.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> somebody must make a profit breeding, otherwise no one would do it.


A lot of them seem to be accidental breedings or some that just don't have a clue and breed poor quality horses just for fun. They don't spend the money on care or training they just sell cheap to some unsuspecting soul that doesn't have any more sense than they do.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Incitatus32 said:


> I think in todays world breeders need to be even more conscientous about their breeding than ever due to overpopulation. We can argue the 'how' it came about till we're blue in the face but the fact is that it's a problem and one of the steps to solving it is responsible breeding. My boss slowed down her breeding. In the past six years we've bred about three (hopefully four!!) colts/fillies. When choosing mares to pair with her stud we looked at temperament and how good they were at representing the breed. Only three mares made the list. Because of that, of the foals born we have (so far) three outstanding yearlings and one that will (hopefully) be here in the spring.
> 
> I have almost all rescue animals. I've always rescued and always consider rescues first before I consider buying from a breeder. When and if I do buy from a breeder I always make sure that they have good intentions for their stock and are responsible. I don't support farms that in this economy put out ten - god knows how many foals out a year and doesn't care what happens to them, or the rest of the population. I buy from breeders who breed responsibly and want their babies to get good homes.
> 
> I just wanted to add that I believe rescued horses are just as good as 'bred' horses. They have their scars and issues but with a LOT of time and effort they can also be productive and win at shows.


Rescue horses do not usually come with papers so you wouldn't be able to go to breed shows which can be important depending on style of riding.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

SunnyDraco said:


> While you can eat them, I don't think I could :?
> I can't bring myself to eat lambs, goats or rabbits either. Cows, pigs and chickens or other poultry, those are on my dinner table frequently :lol:
> 
> We can control which horses are reproducing, test genetics before breeding and choose different matches with no regard to a horse's "feelings" or "emotions" about whether they have babies or not. We can always wish we could have half as much control and force our own ideas about our own society's reproduction and moral values, it is not ethical is do so. Just like we cannot force someone to geld a stallion running with mares and producing ill tempered or genetic disaster foals. We can try to kindly educate others to be wiser but they still have the freedom to choose and there are always consequences.


Wonder if eating poor quality unhealthy animals of any kind would effect our health in the long run. The old saying is you are what you eat.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Poor quality has nothing to do with it. That's simply conformational.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

squirrelfood said:


> Some of the "back yard breeders" actually have much better horses than you see in the showring. They just didn't have the ready cash to promote them. Breeding has become far too much about the money for some folks, and not nearly enough about the horse.


i think the majority think of a backyard breeder as the ones that just breed because they have a mare and or stallion with no thought. They just do it because.
Those are the ones poorly conformed and not taken care of to most standards.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

squirrelfood said:


> Poor quality has nothing to do with it. That's simply conformational.


Poorly conformed probably have genetic issues that effect health.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

The 'quality' part isn't an issue. It's simply conformational. Nobody fusses about eating a sickle-hocked ewe necked steer, or a roach-backed hog.

Or even a 3-legged chicken or double yolk egg.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

My first herd was what I could afford. No horses had great conformation, but I only had two horses that were chronically lame. The others were outside 24/7 with a shelter and worked EVERY WEEK, and very rarely did any of my lesson horses go lame.
I wonder, sometimes, if the lameness problems as a gauge are more attributable to horses that are not in the peak shape needed to perform manuevers, and therefore injury themselves prematurely due to trainer error.
I totally agree that any breeding horse with a chronic health/lameness problem should be pulled from breeding.
You wouldn't do this to your child. Why would do it to your horse?


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Back yard or big time, it comes down to proper education. Either can have it. In my neck of the woods, right now we are having a problem with Friesians. People are (apparently) buying a colt, then standing them with no regard to conformation. So a lot of these crosses are coming out with huge heads, massive front ends, swayback, and no hind quarters to speak of. Over the last few years there seems to be a bidding war lowering the prices of these stallions here on CL.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

OP, I actually wanted to comment on your sentiment about being "anti-family." I don't actually think this construct is a thing... Birth rates (at least amongst Caucasian Americans) has been declining for some decades now. I actually think it's "in" to not have a family, particularly with my generation. I know that I never plan on having children, and at least part of the reason is due to what you described--over population. 

In regards to Viranh's post; I don't think that's something we will ever have to worry about. There will always be backyard breeders (just like there are of other animals).


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think 'backyard' breeders is a badly thought out term
The worst offenders in the UK at present are a lot of the Gypsy Cob/Vanner breeders - far from being backyard but totally indiscriminate, often 'abandoned on vacant land and neglected.
Then you have what I suppose could be called backyard - the outgrown or unsound family pony/horse or the one they rescued that turned out to be unrideable but so 'cute and pretty' we just have to have a baby from it regardless of it being any good - but these at least don't amount to large numbers
Then the stallions that no one bothered to castrate that produce the accidental offspring
Then the low end breeders that run a stallion with a herd, do as little as possible by way of care and feeding and sell them at auction for whatever they can get even if they do get shipped direct to the slaughter yards in Mexico or Canada
And then the careful breeders - small or big time that have good stallions or use an AI service, research really well and only breed from top class mares that are either competition proven so have a good chance of producing a competition offspring or have the conformation, action and temperament to produce show ring winners - and there is still a market for both


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

I would agree that the larger cause of lameness/unsoundness is caused by money. Starting too young and pushing too hard just to make a few bucks. Yes, there is some poor breeding going on, also for money. Look at TB's and their lousy feet and legs. Arabians with their overbent heads, club feet and sickle hocks. QH with tiny feet and overblown bodies. All fad breeding for the money instead of breeding useful sound horses that hold up.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

And the ones Squirrelfood just described are the ones that would continue breeding if there were any kind of laws in place to restrict breeding.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

whisperbaby22 said:


> Back yard or big time, it comes down to proper education. Either can have it. In my neck of the woods, right now we are having a problem with Friesians. People are (apparently) buying a colt, then standing them with no regard to conformation. So a lot of these crosses are coming out with huge heads, massive front ends, swayback, and no hind quarters to speak of. Over the last few years there seems to be a bidding war lowering the prices of these stallions here on CL.


The Amish have a stallion in my area that people are breeding to. He didn't impress me. I'm sure the stud fee isn't very much though.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

squirrelfood said:


> The 'quality' part isn't an issue. It's simply conformational. Nobody fusses about eating a sickle-hocked ewe necked steer, or a roach-backed hog.
> 
> Or even a 3-legged chicken or double yolk egg.


There are some issues of what is given to cattle and affecting people so my point is that even though unproven it is possible.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

churumbeque said:


> The Amish have a stallion in my area that people are breeding to. He didn't impress me. I'm sure the stud fee isn't very much though.


If he has good conformation, a good disposition and easy to handle; does a pretty good job at whatever they work him at, he would impress me more than a lot of show stock I have seen.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I think we all need to remember that while we all have opinions about how things should be done, unless we're footing the bills we don't have any say so in day to day operations on various farms. All we can/should control are our own actions/decisions and let market opinion take care of the rest. There will ALWAYS be those who just breed to breed. They always have, they always will. Even if we went to licensing of breeding farms and keurings, they would not participate because they are not breeders. They just breed a baby once in a while and do not consider themselves to be commercial, make your living at it producing the best stock possible farms. So, they wouldn't get licensed and they wouldn't be bringing stock to keurings for evaluation. 

The language on a possible bill requiring licensing would probably have something to do with the number of breedings done or foals bred each year and to be commercial I'd wager it wouldn't be 2-7 foals or breedings per year, probably more than 25 for a smallish operation. Anything less would be exempt as a hobby farm, and unless you're willing to completely do away with hobby farms, that's where they'd come in. 

I think the ultimate cure is for those who try to produce really good animals to keep on doing it, maybe on a scaled down version for a while, and let the glut of horses level out. Right now, you can still get a pretty good horse for very little money. Once that levels out, I think it will mostly sort itself out.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have read several times now in UK horse magazines that there is already looking to be a shortage in the near future of top level quality horses for competition and showing classes
What we have here and there are too many mediocre horses being bred - and too many with conformation problems that will lead to unsoundness or inherited behavioral problems. These were the horses and ponies that really used to be bred for the European meat market and fast tracked there through the auctions but the EU passport regulations has almost halted that trade for them in the UK so they sell for peanuts and its caused the prices overall to drop unless you're buying at the top end
I don't have a problem with buying a bargain horse that's being sold cheaply for a genuine reason but way too many people buying totally useless horses because they're cheap rather than save the money it costs to keep them for a year or two and buy a good sound well trained horse off a reputable person


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

By the time I have bred, raised and trained a horse to be good under saddle, I'm not going to be giving it away. I'll put a fair price on him and I'll get it or keep him. That's how I've always done business. When I say fair, I mean Just that. For instance, Bo my next 2 year old who will be getting started soon. He'll get a 60 day start with the trainer and probably another 60 with me just riding him out and about and putting on the miles. Depending on how he shapes up, I would expect to be able to market him for roughly $5K. He's not a top end show horse, but he'll be a good, solid, safe everyday working mount. My most consistent market is for a good stock horse gelding, started and with miles but not finished on either trail or cow work. They start about $4500 and go up. For horses with a show future it costs more, because I'll take them and show them and also get miles outside the arena on them. I'm not trying to sell $100K warmbloods, just good using stock for every day riding and some showing. The kind of horse you buy as a 4 or 5 year old and keep til he dies. When I have a horse go to a family and the whole family can ride him, I'm thrilled.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

churum ... what is Given to Cattle .. like any animal used for slaughter, what you Put in it 
is going to affect the meat. It has Nothing to do with breeding. 
Not all conformational issues are genetic . 
All animal breeds have issues with genetic faults. If the arab fad keeps up with heads that are popular now, well, they are creating a deformity. Just as the tiny tiny feet, bubble butts, Butt high , horses, and then the dressage horses that are so up hill they will start to look like a giraffe. These are the Purebred Registered horses. Give me my grade horses or ranch bred horses that are bred for function and use first.


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## poundinghooves (Aug 5, 2010)

I have wondered this same thing altheablue18! I too am strongly against breeding or buying while shelter pets are dying! I have always wondered though if there is an overpopulation problem with horses, like there is with dogs and cats. I know rescues are full, but is that due to owners needing to get rid of a horse fast (maybe a family or financial situation or maybe the horse has an issue, etc) or is it because there are too many horses out there?


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

poundinghooves said:


> I have wondered this same thing altheablue18! I too am strongly against breeding or buying while shelter pets are dying! I have always wondered though if there is an overpopulation problem with horses, like there is with dogs and cats. I know rescues are full, but is that due to owners needing to get rid of a horse fast (maybe a family or financial situation or maybe the horse has an issue, etc) or is it because there are too many horses out there?


Pretty much all of the above. Throw in the fact that feed is priced out of reach for a lot of folks who would otherwise keep their horses.......


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

poundinghooves said:


> I have wondered this same thing altheablue18! I too am strongly against breeding or buying while shelter pets are dying! I have always wondered though if there is an overpopulation problem with horses, like there is with dogs and cats. I know rescues are full, but is that due to owners needing to get rid of a horse fast (maybe a family or financial situation or maybe the horse has an issue, etc) or is it because there are too many horses out there?


It has more to do with market, what they are selling, the effort they put into selling, the price they ask for, what buyers are looking for and what buyers are willing to spend. 

There are lots who want to buy a horse and are actively horse shopping. Horses who end up at rescues tend to be the ones that no one is willing to buy. Training is the biggest part of the market value, so is age, soundness, health, physical condition. Most horses who are at a rescue go through training (which may be just basic halter training and manners for the young or unsound), vet care to get them healthy, gelding of colts, badly needed hoof care, rehabilitation to gain trust after abuse and/or pumping food into them to get them to a healthy weight. If a horse is sound, healthy and broke to ride when it is left at a rescue, the rescue is thrilled because they probably can find someone to adopt that horse within days which means they have more money from the adoption that wasn't spent on that horse before getting adopted and they can put that money towards the costs of the other horses that require more money put into their care before they can be available for adoption. Most rescue horses cost more in feed, vet and farrier than they get for adoption. When my sister worked at a rescue, most of her time was sending letters and filing out forms to get money to pay for the care and needs the horses needed. 

While there are many horses on the market and some sell while others do not or cannot, it has more to do with the individual horse and what buyers are wanting. Many older unbroke, untrained, pasture puffs, sickly, malnourished, underfed, abused, neglected and unsound horses that are near impossible to find a home for unless someone puts more time and money into them than they will ever be worth. There is a lot of horses who are poorly bred, bred without a long term plan or are bred by those who thought they would keep the foal but something changed their plans. This is why we discourage owners who are going into college from breeding, they don't know what their life will be like during and after college to ensure they will actually be able to care for and train a foal. Others do a horse a disservice when they buy them for a breeding program and their breeding program falls through and 15 years later they sell all their stock they never actually bred and they never did anything for training for all those years they never bred. The market doesn't have much need of unbroke older mares. 

Also remember, most grade horses are purebreds without papers or from purebred stock. I grew up with many grade horses, two were bought at auction for $50 each but were probably purebred Arabians but no papers to prove it. They could beat registered Arabians in type and conformation but their previous owner wouldn't allow the auction to share information about them, probably didn't want to get in trouble for half starved yearlings that couldn't even lift their heads. Their condition didn't worry my mom, she saw through their shabbiness and just wanted to get papers on what appeared to be well bred Arabians. Even Arabian breeders would try to guess their lineage because they were beautiful, correct and awesome kids horses even when they were green 4 year olds. 

Never breed just because a horse has papers or because they are somehow better without papers because they supposedly weren't messed up by breeding fads. Each breed has many types within the breed, while some Arabian breeders may breed for some fad that hurts actual performance and ability to work, not all Arabian breeders follow a fad but stay true to the breed and not what is popular in the halter or some other show ring. Same goes for every breed, there are breeders at both ends of the spectrum, those who breed for fashion and the money and those who breed true to the breed and for the love of the breed. It is easier to see the breeders who breed for fashion, they promote hard and all over with their large fortunes. But I would not slap labels on an entire breed just because the big money is destroying function with fashion, you look under the fashion and hype and find larger numbers who love the breed and keep to the true function and purpose of the breed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## altheablue18 (Dec 15, 2014)

Dreamcatcher-It sounds like your horses are lucky, and have caught a pretty good deal. But I do have a different take on something you said...



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I think we all need to remember that while we all have opinions about how things should be done, unless we're footing the bills we don't have any say so in day to day operations on various farms. All we can/should control are our own actions/decisions and let market opinion take care of the rest.


This is your opinion. Not all of us think The Market will solve all in a way that is morally acceptable. Yes the market drives human actions but it does not produce the best outcomes all of the time, and when market conditions result in suffering and death I dont want to sit silently on the sidelines and I'm glad others dont either. The Market has not done much good for all the dogs who end up as bodies in landfills. Im not looking for government to step in with a brilliant fix (they'd screw it up), but I'm also not going to say that animal overpopulation and the resulting deaths, which are due to human driven factors (like greed, ignorance, irresponsibility, etc etc) is just 'none of my business.' As a horse lover, and animal lover, its my business. 

As a community it may not be our job to police other people's actions...except when other people are doing things that we find morally reprehensible. And again, this is a matter of opinion and I'm not advocating for laws. 

And as I stated previously, even if I didnt care about animal welfare, my tax money still goes towards animal control. Not a huge amount-not nearly enough to properly fund it-but still. That makes it my business.


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## altheablue18 (Dec 15, 2014)

Zexious said:


> I actually think it's "in" to not have a family, particularly with my generation.


Haha really? Can you tell my parents that? :lol:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

altheablue18 said:


> And as I stated previously, even if I didnt care about animal welfare, my tax money still goes towards animal control. Not a huge amount-not nearly enough to properly fund it-but still. That makes it my business.



I don't know anything about dogs & cats and Animal Control (there is none where I live). I am an animal lover, at one point I had 60 cats that I was feeding. I got together with my vet and we fixed them all and I gave away all but 6 neutered males. Attrition has me down to 3 and I'm not replacing any as they fail to come back for dinner. I put the food out in the feed barn, they get fed. I trap them and give them their vaccines and any deworming or medication as necessary. These are NOT pets. They aren't even tame. 

When people drop off dogs in this area, they tend to be shot for harassing livestock, and since there's no ACO in the county area, that's the only control there is. I don't like it, but I can't afford to take in the 30-50 strays I see every year either. The farmers will have to handle that. If I catch the stray and take it into town, I pay $50 for them to take it at the city pound and they take it in and immediately put it to sleep. I don't like that either. 

My horses do have it good and my neighbors horses have it pretty good too. If I see a horse that looks like hide over skeleton, I try to strike up a conversation to see what's going on with that horse. If it's a case of they just aren't feeding, then I call the sheriff. Legally, that's all I can do. They either seize and see if someone can foster or they try to work with the owner. That's what I mean by not being able to call the shots on any one farm. I don't mean I can't do anything, but I mean that my way and my opinions of how things ought to be done are not the only ones and certainly are not the only ACCEPTED ones for the area. 

On my farm, I decide how many I can afford to feed and what I feed them. There are people on this board who would tell you they don't like how I feed. Tough, it works for me and the horses are healthy. Same thing for breeding. If I can afford to breed my mares, pay the stud fees if I use an outside stallion and pay for all the vet care, feed the foals and train them up, that's entirely up to me. No one has the right to come tell me I cannot breed my own horses. They are livestock and they are my property. I try to practice good stewardship of all that I have been lucky enough to receive. 

1 Timothy 5:8 - But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Psalms 104:25, 27. Animals, both small and great.. they all wait for thee to 
give them their food in due season. 


So, you may express your opinion and I may give you the courtesy of listening and discussing your opinion with you, but as for telling me how to live my life or run my business, no you cannot do that.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I don't know anything about dogs & cats and Animal Control (there is none where I live). I am an animal lover, at one point I had 60 cats that I was feeding. I got together with my vet and we fixed them all and I gave away all but 6 neutered males. Attrition has me down to 3 and I'm not replacing any as they fail to come back for dinner. I put the food out in the feed barn, they get fed. I trap them and give them their vaccines and any deworming or medication as necessary. These are NOT pets. They aren't even tame.
> 
> When people drop off dogs in this area, they tend to be shot for harassing livestock, and since there's no ACO in the county area, that's the only control there is. I don't like it, but I can't afford to take in the 30-50 strays I see every year either. The farmers will have to handle that. If I catch the stray and take it into town, I pay $50 for them to take it at the city pound and they take it in and immediately put it to sleep. I don't like that either.
> 
> ...


I have personally seen all her horses in person and my friend takes very good care of all of her animals. Dreamcatcher is a good owner and breeder.
She even gelded a horse that most arabian breeders would give their teeth to own. One that was a proven producer. 
She knows what shes talking about and the rest of us need to listen to her advice. Shalom


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> I have personally seen all her horses in person and my friend takes very good care of all of her animals. Dreamcatcher is a good owner and breeder.
> She even gelded a horse that most arabian breeders would give their teeth to own. One that was a proven producer.
> She knows what shes talking about and the rest of us need to listen to her advice. Shalom


Thank you, Donald. I appreciate your comments.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

I reiterate Dreamcatcher's comments. Each of us decide our own lives and businesses and no one may judge or decide otherwise. Whether people agree or not is irrelevant. I also decide how many I can take and feed on my farm. I've had to turn down quite a few, sadly. And I also can afford the feed, foals onsite as long as necessary, the breeding fees - if/when I choose an outside stallion, the vet care, etc. Until someone else is paying my mortgage, which in all my years on this earth, has never happened, I think anyone else's input is moot - unless it is asked for.


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## altheablue18 (Dec 15, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I don't know anything about dogs & cats and Animal Control (there is none where I live). I am an animal lover, at one point I had 60 cats that I was feeding. I got together with my vet and we fixed them all and I gave away all but 6 neutered males. Attrition has me down to 3 and I'm not replacing any as they fail to come back for dinner. I put the food out in the feed barn, they get fed. I trap them and give them their vaccines and any deworming or medication as necessary. These are NOT pets. They aren't even tame.
> 
> When people drop off dogs in this area, they tend to be shot for harassing livestock, and since there's no ACO in the county area, that's the only control there is. I don't like it, but I can't afford to take in the 30-50 strays I see every year either. The farmers will have to handle that. If I catch the stray and take it into town, I pay $50 for them to take it at the city pound and they take it in and immediately put it to sleep. I don't like that either.
> 
> ...



I hope I have not offended you, because obviously you are conscientious and you have educated yourself-you have gone above and beyond to be a good steward and that is commendable. We need more like you. But unfortunately your conscientiousness is not the norm where I live. There are many people in my area who live their lives without a care to stewardship or even common decency when it comes to animals, and when someone sees an animal being hurt or abused or starved the abuser says 'its my property/house/whatever and none of your business.' There are 'business owners' who operate puppy mills (that I've seen personally) which are horrendous. And Im not a bleeding heart. I'm pretty tough and to me, these places were disgusting. So in those cases I do think the community must stand and do something. I think its harder with horses because there is really so much $ involved in their care and there are so many different opinions about what the minimum standard of care is. I work with a horse rescue and I know some people call it abuse just because they see a horse without a blanket in the early winter. So I know there's a fine line between 'not my business' and otherwise and we have to be careful not to tread over it. 

I'd also like to reiterate, I'm coming from a different place (domestic companion animals) so I'm just exploring the topic. I am certainly not judging anyone on this forum. In fact the people I'm harping about are probably not here because they probably dont care enough about their horses to want to geek out on a horse forum on the web like we do.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I don't think any of us would want to antagonize a breeder that actually knows what they are doing, someone bred the horse I have now and I am very grateful. But horses have evolved into something of a grey area, not pets, legally livestock, but kept as "pets" by a large number of us. I am glad that this discussion has had so many thoughtful replies.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

altheablue18 said:


> I hope I have not offended you, because obviously you are conscientious and you have educated yourself-you have gone above and beyond to be a good steward and that is commendable. We need more like you. But unfortunately your conscientiousness is not the norm where I live. There are many people in my area who live their lives without a care to stewardship or even common decency when it comes to animals, and when someone sees an animal being hurt or abused or starved the abuser says 'its my property/house/whatever and none of your business.' There are 'business owners' who operate puppy mills (that I've seen personally) which are horrendous. And Im not a bleeding heart. I'm pretty tough and to me, these places were disgusting. So in those cases I do think the community must stand and do something. I think its harder with horses because there is really so much $ involved in their care and there are so many different opinions about what the minimum standard of care is. I work with a horse rescue and I know some people call it abuse just because they see a horse without a blanket in the early winter. So I know there's a fine line between 'not my business' and otherwise and we have to be careful not to tread over it.
> 
> I'd also like to reiterate, I'm coming from a different place (domestic companion animals) so I'm just exploring the topic. I am certainly not judging anyone on this forum. In fact the people I'm harping about are probably not here because they probably dont care enough about their horses to want to geek out on a horse forum on the web like we do.


Your points are very valid. If there weren't any laws could you imagine what kind of place the world would be.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

altheablue--Since I'm probably in a similar demographic that you are, I doubt they'd listen xD But parent's opinion and the general consensus can often differ~


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## altheablue18 (Dec 15, 2014)

Zexious said:


> altheablue--Since I'm probably in a similar demographic that you are, I doubt they'd listen xD But parent's opinion and the general consensus can often differ~


yep, you're right. when i go home for holidays and am around my parents and their friends, and i try to explain that I'm childless by choice, the response is nearly always a sympathetic smile and a comment to the effect of 'oh honey, you'll find somebody.'


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

@Altheablue18 - no, I'm not offended at all, it's all part of the discussion. Today people tend to not set clear boundaries and then get all offended when someone else doesn't know where they are. 

I agree with you re: puppy mills and such. My state used to be, may still be in spite of all of the laws, one of the very worst for puppy milling. They've done a lot of legislation and I think it's better, but can't say for sure. I know when they bust one it makes the news now, so that makes me think maybe it's down. 

Not having animal control, unless it's a private shelter or city shelter, makes it hard to call when you see certain abuses, especially when it involves livestock. Here in OK they are VERY pro property owner's rights and you better be darn sure before you do a seizure. In some ways this is very good and in others it can really hinder the attempts to help an animal that desperately needs it. 

You're also correct about the vast differences in the minimum standards of care. I know a person who thinks I'm the cruelest thing EVER because when the weather is decent, I leave my horses outside on pasture rather that in a stall. IMO, I'd rather they be out 24/7 as much as possible, I think it's good for their physical health and their mental health. Yet, they know when the weather gets bad to haul for the back gate and they're usually standing there, tapping toes as if to say, "What took you so long?". Others think I'm awful because I blanket them, some think I don't blanket or sheet them enough. I don't feed alfalfa and some think that's the only feed fit to eat. So, ask 10 people about how to keep a horse and, as someone else has commented, you'll get 13 answers. 

I had to snicker at your childless by choice and the "You'll find someone" comment. LOL! Really? Like you'd even have to look hard.....SNORT! I find it refreshing to hear from folks who don't choose to become the Royal Broodmare immediately on graduating high school!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> I have personally seen all her horses in person


OH, NO!!! It's an Arabian Club!!!=b
At least I know where to go if I get the yen for another Arab. LOL

I know what you about knowing your limits. I've had 21 to care for, dogs, cats, horses and rabbits, at one point, and three years ago I had 60 chickens, and took 15 RIR/EE pullets about to be layers to a small animal auction. They were easily the healthiest birds there, and somebody bought the whole flock. I was down to almost 20 after butchering.
This is the first time I've kept my birds outside in the winter, instead of the stall. It pains me to keep my pared down winter flock of 6 in a refurbished 3 1/2' x 4' house with really good air flow, but EVERYTHING I've studied on the subject has taught me that boxing them up in the winter without a really good air exchange creates humidity and will kill them, even when the wind chills are -20F, as they are today. I'm adding more straw this afternoon, I've addressed any drafts and I'm sure that they will be just fine. They are super feathered out and laid 3 eggs this morning.
My three horses are in their stalls today, in my wooden, sided barn, and with a window to the west shelter open and the Dutch doors open to the east, it is STILL 20 degrees warmer in that barn and they are comfortable.
Two weeks ago it was too balmy to put them, so I left them out all night, to continue building great winter coats.
I don't give a HANG what somebody else Thinks about my horse care bc I KNOW that I deal with it every day. I won't condemn the people who bought an elderly companion mare for their younger mare--I drive by their place, some 8 miles from home--bc I know what a hard keeper older horse looks like and they were kind to take her.
I rehomed a sweet, little dog several years ago who was dumped and showed up at my door. (A Miniature Schnauzer would get trampled at my place.) I WISH somebody would dump some cats bc I could use a few more in my barn.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Corporal, I know what you mean. I'm down to 16 -/+ and 3 guinea hens. The guineas sleep up in the tree branches above the chicken coop, no matter the weather, they don't want in. The rest of the hens put themselves to bed at about 5:30 pm, or like today when it's exceptionally cold, they may pretty much stay in all day. They have a water heater to keep ice off their water, lots of food and I'll toss them some Chicken Candy (Scratch) about 4 pm. It really bugs me not to bring the whole lot into the house when it gets like this but I look outside and see them out periodically, just-a-peckin and happy being chickens and it amazes me. I'm a REAL sucker for my chickens, so I do have a hard time sometimes treating them like the barnyard critters they are. There's not much more peaceful and soothing than an armfull of 'purring' chicken.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

OK ladies, these last two posts mean it's time to revive the Horse Forum Chicken Thread!!

I'm right there with you both, lows (actual temp) going down to -11*F here tonight. I added a little insulation to the walls of my unheated coop yesterday, threw down some extra shavings and blocked off the nest boxes overnight to try to eliminate "dead air" space. I talked DH into letting me use a little corner of the garage as a temporary "playpen" for the girls on these brutal days when windchills are just unreasonable. They had a grand old time in there today, I put down a layer of straw and shavings for them to play in and they thought it was just great. They decided that making a nest out of a half-full shavings bag was perfect- I had 4 eggs in there today! 









Nice to see them doing something instead of huddling in the coop. Corporal, you're exactly right, the humidity is so much harder on them than the cold. I'm hovering between 40-50% humidity in the coop (where they're still roosting overnight), and fingers crossed that we'll make it with no major frostbite incidents. I have one who hasn't finished molting with a naked neck, but I tucked her in between two of the more...robust...girls tonight and I'm sure she'll be fine.










Anyway, sorry to go wildly off topic there...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

LOL! I'm not so sure that it is off topic, we started out debating breeding of horses, dogs & cats. Why not talk about our chickens?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

egrogan said:


> *I have one who hasn't finished molting with a naked neck,* but I tucked her in between two of the more...robust...girls tonight and I'm sure she'll be fine.


'O' 'O' 'O' 'O' 'O'




I think you're right. My EE hens have small combs, so I'm less worrried about any frostbite.
My six hens are TOTALLY fuzzybutts!!
When I fed this evening their little house was _really_ warm. Their house is 6 ft. due south of a garage sized outbuilding, so it blocks all due north winds.
Are you'all members of BYC? I *lived* there for two years, bc I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING!! (member since 2009.)


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I have pretty limited time for the internet and since chickens aren't my major source of income, I don't spend a lot of time on BYC, but I have gone there many times. Especially when looking for advice on a problem I haven't seen before. It was there that I learned chickens actually LIKE a shampoo and blow dry!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

They like cartoons too. My son lost his hen that was paper trained and spent a great deal of time in the house. I never thought I'd miss a chicken. Here I was feeling sorry for mine as they don't have a "house" proper. They have a roof and when the nights start getting cold and the wind kicks up we cover the two sides that the coldest wind comes from. Other than that we keep the boxes lined with hay or shavings and keep the roosts up in the corner the wind break is on. We tuck the one that molted late in between our fluffier hens too.


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## liltuktuk (Dec 16, 2011)

Just going to add my 2 cents here.

I have no problem with people continuing to breed good, using horses. I want a horse with sound temperament, good conformation, good solid feet (no hoof no horse!), and that will hold up to hard work.

I don't show, I have no use for prancing around in circles in an arena or trying to win a beauty pageant. And a lot of the halter horses I see, :shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:, I can't even figure out how they're holding up their own weight, let alone would be able to hold up a rider. I enjoy trail riding and am getting into endurance riding this year. And that's what I want, a horse I can ride all day and the next day they're ready to go again and they enjoy it.

I have an Arabian mare that a couple of years ago I was considering breeding to get my next riding horse. I have the financial means to care for 2 horses and have always wanted to train a horse from the ground up. I went back and forth looking at studs, trying to decide if I should go for it or not a finally decided not to, because:
1) The risk of loosing her due to the pregnancy and/or foaling was not something I would be able to cope with.
2)She's grey and would have a high probability of passing on the grey gene. Now I love greys, but she has a melanoma that she started developing at age 9 and I just don't want to have to deal with that again.
3) While she's a good horse and has a personality that I get a long with, she is kind of quirky and can be spooky. I'm not sure if this is 100% just how she is or how much of it was due to her life prior to when I got her, but I wanted my next horse to be something that I could do anything with and not have to deal with spookiness.

So, instead I bought a 6 month old supposedly paint/arab cross colt off of craigslist for $300. Supposedly a PMU foal from Canada, but I found out after the fact that the woman I bought him from could be less than trust worthy. He's going to be 2 in April, and so far he's a giant, loveable, hunk of buckskin pinto cuteness. He's built nicely and should hold up to whatever I want to do, he's a complete lover, and I have yet to be able to scare him. I'm crazy excited to start him, but am trying my best to hold off until he is 3 to really start riding. Everything I've asked him to do so far he picks up really quickly and remembers it. He can be a bit stubborn, but so am I. :wink: 

When I bought him the lady kept going on and on about how she'd love to keep him because of his coloring for breeding :shock:. Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to have 5 more of him, but I wouldn't breed a grade horse of unknown lineage without him first proving that he was the best thing since sliced bread....and well I don't have the time or facilities for that.

So there's my 2 cents on the horse breeding bit....

Now onto the off topic part :lol:.

Chickens: I can't wait until I can have my own property with my horses, some chickens, some goats, and my cats and dogs living in happy rural bliss.

Human babies: As of right now, not in our plan. And it drives my parents and my boyfriend's parents crazy. They've officially hit the grandchild phase and aren't amused when I mention that they have plenty of grand-dogs, cats, and horses. It seems selfish to some, but for me to have children at this stage in my life would mean that I would have to give up everything I enjoy either due to time or monetary costs, which would be my horses, and I'm not willing to do that.

In terms of humans "breeding" to reduce genetic issues. While most people would be appalled of the idea that we limit who can have babies based on genetic traits, I for one wish that people who have genetic diseases/conditions with a high probability of being passed to offspring wouldn't have children that it could be passed on too. Just like with horses or dogs, think of the diseases/conditions we could wipe out if people who know they have the genetic trait and would pass it on to their children decided not to have children. 

I'm also the person that if I decided to have kids and during my pregnancy found out that my child would be born with some genetic default, mental incapacity, etc. that would affect their quality of life and that it was still safe to terminate the pregnancy I probably would. I know many people who would be appalled by this, but I know that I personally could not deal with having a child who was disabled due to mental defect.

Well it looks like my 2 cents turned into 2 bucks.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

If all good and responsible breeders stop breeding because it is the 'responsible thing to do'... Well that means that the only people left breeding are those who are less scrupulous or irresponsible breeders, who will continue to breed irrelevant of the market. Same is true in dogs and cats honestly. A very small part of the pet overpopulation problem are responsible breeders that invest extensive time in screening puppy/kitten buyers and keep tabs on their offspring throughout the duration of its life and offer to take that dog/cat back if needed. A much larger problem is those that sell the pet and that is the last contact they have with the pet or its owner.

In horses it is probably good to reduce the number of mares bred by even the best breeders if their is not sufficient demand, but I don't feel they should stop breeding all together. The key to overpopulation is not for responsible breeders to discontinue breeding, it is to educate those that 'just have to have a foal out of their mare and neighbors stallion'.

For what it is worth I am also of the female population that is not going to reproduce too. I think my parents have finally accepted that... LOL. However I have responsibly bred two litters of puppies (know exactly where every one of them is at and in regular contact with all of my puppy owners, most are spayed/neutered, rest are in show homes).


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

> Well that means that the only people left breeding are those who are less scrupulous or irresponsible breeders, who will continue to breed irrelevant of the market.


And since everyone wants a horse for cheaper than responsible breeders can stay in business for................ enjoy your junk horses, folks.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I have no issue with breeding horses. Just remember why you are doing it (because I love dolly and want a foal out of Dolly is not enough reasons). To breed you need to do your research. If you have junk you can breed to the top stud in the world and the result will be.. most often.. at least 50% junk! 

I bought a dog from someone. Dog was by a world class sire and the dam was untitled. This breeder had been breeding dogs for YEARS (health testing for Hip Dysplasia and all that was done). She started out years ago with a junk female (nerve and confidence issues).. and for 20 years created this line that went back to this female. All her dogs had nerve and confidence issues (I did not know this at the time). One that did not had a wry bite.. so was no good for breeding. 

I was unknowledgeable about things..and bought a female puppy that I planned to breed if she had the right stuff. dog is lovely speciman physically.. but has the same weak nerve and confidence issues of the Female tail of that line. This breeder who wanted to "partner" with me breeding this dog had a blue fit when I spayed. She was going to take me to court over it. 

Ultimately that did not happen (and the dog was spayed so there was no undoing it). 

That is what you have to be willing to do if you are breeding horses. You have to be tough enough to cull your breeding program to get all you need in the offspring. You need to do your homework and make sure the animals being bred have prepotency for the traits you want and need. Last, but not least, do not take a poor animal and breed to a great animal hoping for a great animal. You probably won't get a great animal. You will probably get.. well.. junk. 

I too think we need US slaughter houses for horses. Horses are too expensive to care for if they are not useful. I have often said that the worst fate is the lame gelding that cannot be made sound. Such a horse is better off slaughtered than living its years out abused. Everyone says "let them live as pasture puffs." Problem is there is not enough land to waste on such a project.. land is too expensive to buy and own to have it be filled with expensive pretty things that cost more than they are worth to keep. 

Breed? Yes. Carefully and with thought not willy nilly to provide yet another animal that is barely adequate to do any job. 

JMO


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