# AI vs Live Cover?



## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

OK ive always thought AI would be less expensive than a live cover, but i have done some research on it and it becomes quite pricey, what are yalls opinion?

Anny


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## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

Well ... it all depends ... :wink:

If the stallion your are breeding live cover to is just down the road, LC wins - hands down

If you are on the East Coast and he is on the West Coast, AI wins - hands down

If you have an incompetent vet and no stallion within 5 miles and you are relying on said incompetent vet to tell you when to order semen - AI is going to get very expensive, very quickly but if your vet is good and he knows what he is doing AND your mare co-operates, AI can be very cost effective

You have transport costs and board bills when you ship your mare for LC and depending on the distance involved, you may also opt to leave her there for 60 days to make sure she stays in foal once she is confirmed in foal so those costs can add up as well. Add to that Coggins and possibly Export Health papers as well, and those costs can really start to escalate

There are many pros and cons to each. It is never a simple answer as to which one will always be more or less expensive than the other ...


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

A.I. is wayyy better. It is so much easier on the mare, she does not have to support the weight of the stallion or the risk of her being severly injured. A.I. has a higher pregnancy rate vs. live cover. The stud cant get hurt either. A.I. is a way better choice, i did my senior project on A.I. vs live cover. A.I. is more expensive but in the long run its better. At least in my opinion.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>A.I. has a higher pregnancy rate vs. live cover_

OK this is very interesting to me. Please share details . What studies have you reviewed on this and within what paremeters were they conducted? What were the actual pregnancy %s for either choice? Can you share any of the references? 

I have heard claims on both "sides" for each being better (as far as pregnancy rates, and/or resulting in delivery of a live foal) and I have also heard that they are about equal, given optimum conditions and practices being adhered to on both "sides".... so I would like to be armed with actual facts next time this comes up around the horse barn dinner table!


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## aynelson (Jun 13, 2009)

AI vs live cover - I would pick live cover. I have had 2 experiences with AI - one bad experience and one not so great. During our first breeding, bacteria was introduced into the uterus and my mare came down with a terrible infection. The pregnancy took, but somewhere along the way she developed a placental infection and we lost the foal. The second time, AI was used, they induced a heat cycle to try to get ovulation and the mare came down with colic. We do have a foal who is great. However, "easier on the mare" that is totally subjective and was NOT my experience. I think nature probably has this department perfected and live cover wins hands down. 

P.S. With AI the risk of multiples goes up, risk of infection goes up, and I do not think the % of viable pregnancies actually increases with AI. Check that fact. 

Good luck!


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## southerncowgirl93 (Feb 5, 2009)

I just read an article on this from one of my old magazines.

A.I

Some advantages
- No travel required. Less stress on mare that way.
-Reduced risk of disease.
-Less risk of injury.

Some disadvantages
-Shipping costs. Very expensive, especially for multiple shipments.
-Semen mix-up.
-Potential to devalue semen and offspring. (Too easily available.)

Live Cover

Some advantages

-Access to experts.
-Ready access to stallion.
-No shipping costs.
-Less chance of a mix-up. (Easy to tell one stud from another.)

Some disadvantages

-Travel. (More stress.)
-Disease and infection. (More exposure.)
-Injury.


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## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

> _A.I. has a higher pregnancy rate vs. live cover_


absolute and utter hogwash ... :?

AI can have a WORSE pregnancy rate if the mare reacts to the extender used, or if she has uterine clearance issues and needs to get rid of 60 or 120 ml of extended semen dumped into her, as opposed to 20-30 ml of raw unextended semen going in there via the live cover route

We are pretty well split on live cover versus AI breedings and my in house TB mares that are live covered every single year get in foal off the first covers for years in a row, and the mares we ship semen to dont always manage to have the same excellent statistics

Another one of those "Old Wives Tales" that needs to get permanently dumped on the trash heap ... :wink:


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## My Beau (Jan 2, 2009)

My trainer breeds her mares every year with AI, and I just bred mine AI - even though the stallion is only a half hour away. That's just the way the stallion owner's of the guys we use do it...


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

All the pros and cons and experiences mentioned are why I asked what the variables were in any studies comparing the conception/live foal %s of AI vs. Live Cover-- because either method is only as good/error free as the people performing all associated operations, from mare prep to teasing to vetting to breeding-- the only exception being if the mare and stallion were in a natural pasture setting and had unrestricted access to each other for a couple entire heat cycles--- no human error possible there, unless they weren't fed or fenced properly 

BTW when I have allowed a stallion to live with a small herd of mares and pasture breed, I get virtually 100% conception rates-- and have very calm and content stallion and mares. I have hand bred (live cover) everything this year, as I had a new (to me) stallion and some leased mares, but I would consider managed pasture breeding again if the appropriate circumstances existed.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I like both for different reasons. They both have pro's and con's..

Alot of stallion owners (in the reining world anyways) won't do any live color on mares because they don't want to take any chances on their stallion getting injuried. Which I totally respect.


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## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

FehrGroundRanch - I only do live cover on TB mares because I have to. For no other reason. 

Especially with maiden mares and/or mares you dont know, stuff can happen very very quickly and even in the most experienced TB breeding sheds that breed literally thousands of mares each year Live Cover among the various stallions they stand, you hear of deaths and catastrophic injuries done to the handlers and in some cases to the stallion as well

The mares can be lethal with that back end. They can flip themselves over, they can leap sideways, they can rear and strike out and with everyone in such close proximity, its tough at time to stay out of harm's way

I dont believe in breeding hobbles - I have again seen and heard of too many injuries to the mares that use them but I have also seen and heard of many stallions that end up with stud ending injuries if they get kicked in a vulnerable spot

Collecting is far safer - for the most part - but at the facility I used several years ago, they had a stallion fall off the phantom, get a front leg wedged in a cross bar, he crashed to the ground and his shoulder was broken. They surgically corrected the break but he re-broke it as he was coming out of the anaesthetic and ended up being euthanized. Freak accident - of course, but this kind of stuff does happen more than you think ...


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I know, horses can and will get injuried no matter how safe you try to make the situation. 

I have used live cover with no issues so far, but we did buy a stallion that had been kicked and was no longer able to breed. 

Great topic BTW


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

wow, im seeing a lot of sides from this 8)


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

We used AI on the Warmblood breeding farm I worked on, and I greatly prefered it. If done properly, you can impregnate a lot more mares then you can with live cover. I find it much safer, and again, if done properly, I think the settling rates tend to be higher on average.

I'm not sure if that can change with frozen or cooled semen? Elaine had one stallion, and as soon as we collected him, the semen went directly into the prepped and waiting mares. They all settled within the first two tries.

I personally don't see a huge pro to live cover, except in cases where people don't know what they're doing. You remove the safety risk to both stallion, mare and handlers (of course, you still have to be careful inseminating mares!), plus you're able to better utilize the amount of sperm you collect with less waste. Just my opinion anyway!


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>You remove the safety risk to both stallion, mare and handlers_ 


I disagree just a little . I don't think that with AI, the risk is REMOVED--to collect a stallion, you are still having to handle and manage a 1200+ pound aroused male. Granted, to impregnate the same number of mares, you will be handling him less if you collect and split the collection amongst mares than if you live covered each mare-- but collecting a stallion still poses a risk to the handlers and the stallion.


IMO one of the greatest advantages to live cover is the effect of mare/stallion contact on stimulating hormone release, libido, and thus fertility. There is also the advantage of observing the stallion's "read" of the mare's readiness, in combination with the mare's subtle differences in response to the stallion. Ultrasounds, palpations, follicle checks and measurements are great tools, but sometimes how a mare and stallion interact can tell you more about the actual readiness of the mare than a vet check-- horses do not read the manual on how many days along in their cycle they are supposed to be, or how many mm their follicle is supposed to measure at their peak potential fertility .


Similar advantages can be attained by utilizing an agressive and frequent teasing program in conjunction with AI breeding, but with aggressive and frequent teasing you are reintroducing some of the risks to handlers and horses that strict vet-check/AI prep and breeding had reduced.


All of that said-- I appreciate the many options that AI breeding opens up (bridging distance, increasing safety, allowing injured animals to breed/be bred, limiting transmission of disease, etc.) but in some situations and with certain mares/stallions, IMO as close to "nature's way" as possible is still the best way.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

the only reason I would do live cover is if I was breeding a TB. TB's that are registered HAVE to be live cover. no way around it


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## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

Laura - I have to agree with a lot of what you have said in your last post ... 

I HATE HATE HATE teasing a mare in her stall with a foal at side. She is defensive, protective and if she kicks out because the stallion is invading her protected space in a very loud and invasive manner, the foal has every chance of being kicked. Badly. 

Our paddocks are set up with 10' wide aisles between them and I simply turn the mares out in their paddocks, which are 10' away from the stallion's paddock, and I then watch.

If the mare's arent even close to being breedable, they will either glare at the stallon and then ignore him for the rest of the day or - depending on the mare - she may go up to him to say "hello" and THEN ignore him for the rest of the day.

On about Day 3-4, she will go up and say hello, she may hang around for awhile and/or she will leave and keep coming back throughout the day to visit with him

On Day 5-6 - you'd need a crowbar to pry her away. She plants herself right there close to him, and will do nothing but stand and pee. If she leaves at all, its to go and get a drink or have a nibble of grass, and then back she comes once again. An idiot could tell at that stage that she is ready to breed ... 

We do the same with the maiden mares and have found it works fabulously well to allow them to "get to know the stallion" and to also allow him to verbally incite them to come in and to be receptive to him and we can also stand and watch their attitude to him to get a bit of an inkling about what we may be in for once they are ready to live cover

I will ALWAYS listen to what the stallion tells us, long before I will listen to a vet and the ultrasound. I have gone too many times on the vets advising "she is a breed NOW!" only to find the stallion wont drop, he wont get erect, he wont approach the mare and we have to physically restrain the mare - HARD! - and/or tranq her to get the job done at all. All because the vet said she had to be bred now - she was ready - and big surprise. She doesnt get in foal either ...

So - yes. There is very much that component with Live Cover breeding that simply isnt present when you stick that arm up there and inseminate the mare, all based on what the vet has told you to do

Like anything in life - there are very much pros and cons to either side ...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

That's interesting TrueColors, and definately gives me a new perspective! I guess I'm going based off prefering AI, to the somewhat traditional method of the mare not even meeting the stallion until breeding day and using a teaser stallion to "test the water". In that sense, I find live cover immensely dangerous. However, if I sent my mare to a farm setup like yours and learned that was how you did it, I'd definately choose it over AI! I agree with you - reproduction is a science and horses have a LOT more milleniums of experience on the science of reproduction then we humans do! Heck, I lost my Warmblood filly because the vet kept telling me she didn't take because she kept coming back into heat. Guess who popped out a filly almost a year later? By that time I'd rehomed her after spending hundreds of dollars to have a vet tell me she wouldn't take :roll:

I'd actually be more comfortable turning a stallion loose with his herd of mares then I would handing my mare over to a facility to be bred. Most of the reason I dislike live cover is because humans interefere SO much, we create the danger. How receptive can a mare be when we tie up three legs, twitch her, and then force a stallion on her? AI tends to take away from that manmade danger in situations when the horses can't be natural about it anyway. That's my only preference for AI.

I've always loved Anglo-Arabs. When can I send my mare to you guys? :wink: ****. J/K!


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>> Most of the reason I dislike live cover is because humans interefere SO much, we create the danger. How receptive can a mare be when we tie up three legs, twitch her, and then force a stallion on her? AI tends to take away from that manmade danger in situations when the horses can't be natural about it anyway. That's my only preference for AI.
_
Ahhh but not all people manage their in hand live covering with twitches hobbles and such. I wouldn't like live cover breeding either if I trussed up every mare. If the stallion is being forced on her-- ie. she is not at least showing receptivity (for a maiden) or better yet begging for his attention (for an experienced mare)-- something is seriously amiss! My goal with hand covering is to make it as stress free and natural as possible, because IMO it is safer, and I have happier horses and better conception rates that way.

I have my stallion's pen near one end of the mare paddock, and, like True Colours, I observe several times daily what each mare is "doing", and keep track. The stallion and mares can be in full sight and hearing of each other 24/7, if they wish to be. 

If I see "clues" in a mare's behavior and/or the stallion's interest in a mare, I halter up the mare, take her out of the paddock, and tease her more "up close and personal" with the stallion-- he is allowed to come into contact with her over his fence when appropriate. I have a very vocal, very attentive stallion. He doesn't bite or charge. He is a very good teaser.

If the mare is receptive and the stallion showing appropriate interest, what I do next depends on the mare. With mares I am familiar with, I don't usually breed at the first sign of receptivity, but wait a day or two, if they typically are in standing heat at least four days-- I prefer to cover a mare only twice in her heat cycle if at all possible. If I am not familiar with her typical oestrus behavior, or if it is a day or two into standing heat, I do minimal cleaning under her tail with water, either tie her or have a helper hold her (as I don't tie maiden mares or mares I am not familiar with, or the occasional mare who does not stand well tied). I get the stallion ready (minimal water cleansing) and proceed to cover the mare. 

I am not a big operation, and I don't usually have outside mares to worry about. We covered 6 mares this season, ranging from a five year old maiden off track TB, to a tempermental 16.3 hand mare who had only ever been bred via AI previously, to a 16 year old mare who has had 7 foals and is an old hand at all of this. Not one twitch, hobble, needle or chain touched any of the mares. In fact, I only used a chain over the nose on the stallion with two mares-- I knew from how they teased that they were a little more reactive, and for his own safety I wanted him to be more responsive if I felt I had to move him out of the way quickly-- but not one mare took any serious shots toward him, and obviously we had successful covers. 

I know some folks will say a mare should be restrained for the safety of the stallion and handlers--I have worked at barns where we used all the gadgets to restrain a mare. Guess what-- they can and do still kick, rear, flip, and panic with hobbles, twitches, in breeding chutes and stocks, and even when tranquilized. When they are restrained with devices and end up freaking out, IMO it is a bigger wreck than if they are being attentively held or attended to while securely tied, and it can be MORE dangerous to all concerned, especailly the stallion. 

I prefer not to use any of that if I can avoid it, and as this year illustrated, if a mare is somewhat familiar with the stallion and the process and is not bred until she is totally ready, it can work out smoothly and relatively stress free for all involved.

The above won't work with every mare, every stallion, or every farm, every time-- these are my own mares, or mares on lease that I am responsible for and have here long term, so I get to know their habits and concerns pretty well. I would not hesitate to employ more restraint if I felt it was the best choice. But seriously (and embarassingly, LOL) I had more drama getting one old bird to load in the trailer to go for her ultrasound appointment than I had getting her covered and in foal!


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## aynelson (Jun 13, 2009)

southerncowgirl93 said:


> I just read an article on this from one of my old magazines.
> 
> A.I
> 
> ...


Well, this article is just a list of reasons the author has dumped into categories with no facts to back them up. When really looking into medical matters, journal articles that have been peer reviewed are the gold standard. I would still talk to medical professionals and not look to a show magazine for advice on breeding. When reading articles, you need to always read with a scrutinizing mind, don't take what is printed as truth.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

I would always choose A.I. I think it is a lot easier on both mare and stallion and in some cases on the foals to. My aunt breeds reining/cutting horses and thats all she uses. I have heard horror stories of mares and studs being so badly injured they had to be put down. In my opinion i think A.I. is the best choice, but for thoroughbred breeders they cant use, and why is that???


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## equimed (Jun 2, 2009)

A lot of factors in play - nice discussion, thank you.

We sold one of our PREs to the States to a lovely, caring, careful owner.

He went for a live cover - & the mare kicked him, broke his patella in 3 places, and he had to be put down. Heartbreaking.


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## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

equimed - I sold a TB stallion to a lady out west and the same thing happened. He was dismounting off a mare, she double barreled him, nailed him up high on the hind leg and broke it in several places and he was euthanized :-(



> In my opinion i think A.I. is the best choice, but for thoroughbred breeders they cant use, and why is that???


How much time exactly do you have to hear this tirade?! :?

The Jockey Club's Board of Director's is made up of very wealthy, very well established farm and stallion owners, who own farms in KY and FL and CA that have many hundreds of stalls for visiting mares. Each state that houses large TB farms employs thousands of people as these visiting mares get shipped in to foal out and then get rebred to these stallions and each of these stalls are filled to the tune of $25.00 ++ per DAY x several months that the mares are in residence. Think of transportation companies that make a large percentage of their annual revenues shuttling these mares around, blacksmiths, vets and feed stores in these States, the HUGE unfathomable economic impact if this was to stop. If AI was allowed and these mares no longer had to be shipped anywhere. It is truly mind boggling, plus these large TB farms owned by JC Board of Directors, would sit there with hundreds of empty stalls. It simply wont happen. It never CAN happen ...

They talk about "dilution of the gene pool if AI is allowed" and some such nonsense but money talks and anytime this subject comes up, it is voted upon and squashed with a 100% majority vote by the Old Boys in the Old Boys Club

Oh! And did I mention the State Run Incentive programs funded by each State, for foals born in those States??? HUGE business. Mind boggling money involved that Mare Owners pay into each year for the State run incentive racing programs. Stop sending mares to be bred, and stop having foals born in those States, bye bye to millions of dollars in incentive cash poured in annually

The Old Boys would never allow it, the State Senators wouldnt allow it

Arent you glad you asked now?! :lol: :wink: :lol:


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

TrueColours, I take it you are not a big fan of the Jockey Club. while I understand why if you don't like them. The boys in the club want to protect themselves, just like most people in that place. I don't blame them but I am not sure if I agree with them. 

My opinion AI gives you a boarder selection of studs. However if you have a number of mares like the professional breeders and have a stud or two that you have a preferance to, live covering is cheaper and easier, after buying the stud of course. If the stud is local, I think it is easier on all way. Not have to getting the swimmers, put the swimmers in the mare, and anything else, just introduces the stud to the mare and let nature take its course. If I own a herd of mares and was going to breed them, and if I owned the stallion. I would pasture breed them.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

IMO, AI is the wrong way to go. I wish that the AQHA would move in the direction of the JC but it will never happen. By keeping it to live breeding, it keeps the value of the offspring up and the value of the stallion high. Once he is gone, that's the end of his direct line.

In the AQHA, you can conceivably have endless copies of Smart Little Lena, or Hollywood Dun It, etc. That drives down the values. A live breeding has inherent risks but done properly by pros and the use of hobbles (as an example) it is relatively safe.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

That is something to think about Bill.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>> A live breeding has inherent risks but done properly by pros and the use of hobbles (as an example) it is relatively safe._ 

I have used breeding hobbles (I have a very good set that has not been on a mare in over 10 years!) and seen them used at other farms--- I am not a big fan. Mares are not born "hobble broke" but some farms assume they are and slap them on any and every mare. I have seen more than one mare panic at the unfamiliar feeling of restraint and scramble and even fall in hobbles, and have seen stallion get a foot through the hobble straps on the way up or down.... it is seriously scary to see one, much less two 1200 pound horses tangled up in a set of breeding hobbles. Mares can still kick in them, and depedning on the hobbles, can even break them. I am sure tht an acclimated mare can be hobbled safely-- I just think that they are more trouble than they are worth in most cases.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

lol thanks true colors. If you said it before sorry i did not see, but i do have one more questions... what does tirade mean lol??


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

Bill, While you are right to a point, AI also gives mare owners a wide selection of possible studs that would be possible otherwise. The way the AQHA allows things like embryo transfer, AI and I'm sure I have missed something, could be seen as too loose. And, each indivual looses some of the speciality of being a QH. Personally, I don't like how there is a "type" of QH for every discipline, I would like the AQHA to have one or two body types not the 8 or whatever there are now. No more than 3, 3 should be the upper limit. if this keeps up the AQHA could earn a reputation that almost any horse could be a AQHA. Similar to the American Warmblood weither registery or assication, whichever one less the looser requirements. 

Tirade means a pact of three in this case: breeders, transportation companies, and state sentators.


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## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

**MY** definition of tirade is:

A snarky, persnickety narrative on the subject at hand ... :wink:

kentucky - there are *SO* many ways this Jockey Club / TB situation culd be handled amicably to the benefit of everyone

There is no reason on earth why, if the JC were to allow shipped semen breedings, that *ALL* Live Cover ones need to stop. I could offer **my** stallion on an AI basis, whereas large KY, FL, CA, etc based breeding outfits could say "If you want to breed to Smarty Jones or Tiznow or whoever - its Live Cover and nothing else. Take it or leave it" thus protecting their investment in their facility and their support staff.

What is wrong with doing things in *THAT* manner? :?

Allowing AI would permit me to breed one of my mares to a TB stallion on the west coast that I would never ever have the option of breeding to as I would never ship a mare and foal that distance to be bred. It would also open up stallions overseas on a frozen semen basis whose bloodlines arent even in North America at all. Suffice to say that allowing AI would *EXPAND* the gene pool and not continue to limit it generation after generation which is exactly what is happening now with the LC only rule. Just try and find *ANY* TB's out there with no Bold Ruler or Mr Prospector in their lineage. Its virtually impossible to do ... It would also allow some of the infrequently used regional stallions to perhaps justify their existence by shipping semen out to Sport Horse breeders if that particular stallion would be a valuable addition to a sport horse breeding program and would serve to give the owners a few extra dollars in their pockets each year

No one is saying wipe LC out entirely. We are just asking for the choice to ship semen and open up our markets to Mare Owners that would otherwise not be able to use our stallions at all


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

Am I getting this right keep the elite top stallions stay as live cover only, and the other stallions can go either way? My only problem with that is what level do you say this cut off is, stakes races for the racing TB? and some similar level for other TB.


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## TrueColours (Apr 25, 2009)

Kentucky - no. Elite or less-than-elite stallions have no bearing on this whatsoever

The JC needs to state that "AI is now permitted" and then leave it up to the individuals stallion owners as to whether they want to go *ALL* AI, part AI breedings, or "0" AI breedings. 

Many may simply say they dont want the expense to outfit their farms with the necessary equipment, they dont want to learn the procedures, their stallion is too old and set in his ways to learn to jump up on a plastic mare :wink: or a myriad of other reasons and thats all fine. But simply give those who *WANT* to use AI as a method of breeding registerable TB's the option to do so and it may end up being 25% or the market switches over of 50% or less than 10%. Who the heck knows or cares, but at least make the option available for those that want it

And no - it would never be based on how much a stallion has earned or stands for. It would be up to the individual owners and thats it


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm afraid that I still disagree with AI for the reason I mentioned before. It diminishes the value of the stallion and perpetuates a line nearly indefinitely. It also puts more TBs on the ground then the current numbers. The JC could end up with the same mess that the AQHA is in. It also allows anyone with the money for a straw to use it on any breed with little control by the stallion's owner - greed is a powerful motivator.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

i think the complete oposite of you iridehorses.


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