# Western Pleasure...?



## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

Eh, I'm not a fan of martingales by any means, but that one looks like it's adjusted properly. I was always taught that you want the rings to hit a the point of the horse's shoulder, any higher than that and you pretty much defeat the purpose of even using one. Also, I believe the point is more to get the horse to tuck his nose in and round up, rather than to encourage a low headset. Again, I don't like to ride in the things but that's just what I've picked up from having to use them on the school horses in college. 

Also I would like to point out that many western pleasure horses are bred to carry a naturally level headset. My mare (has cow horse bloodlines but still) almost always travels with a level top line, not because I've forced her into that position from gadgets or other training methods, but because that's the way she naturally carries herself.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I have cowbred horses too, but they have a little bit of run in them too...so they like to have their heads a little up. :/ When I use a martengale, it's adjusted so if the rein is straight from the bit when the horse's head is relaxed, the ring is equal with the rein...I don't really like the things either, Ink. A lot of those "tools" have had their uses so abused. I dunno. I use a tiedown for my roping mare for balance. And it's loose 80% of the time.

I just don't like how there was no release on the downward pressure of the martengale... my 3 year old would be very grumpy with that...she's probably try to buck me off or something. She hates being asked for the same thing constantly.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> Personally, I'm not a fan, but I'm not going to bash it or start a fight. I just saw this video of a person training their horse and saw the martengale and kinda just lost it. No wonder the horses head is so low. The martengale is much to tight for it! When/if I ever use a martengale it's for maybe the first 20 minutes of a couple rides, and it's set so that it will only actually do something if the horse tries to get it's head up in the air. But watching this video... I hardly see horses with their heads like that naturally, but having it tied that low.... :?
> 
> I dunno. I guess this is a bit of a rant. No offense to WP riders intended... It's just not my thing I guess. I think it's just some of the training that ruined WP for me. Oh, and the lack of speed, I like to go fast. :wink:
> 
> January 24, 2012 - YouTube


OK, first of all....do you have permission from the owner to post that video here and then ridicule it? That person in the vid happens to me a friend of mine. You are SO NOT COOL for posting that vid without her permission.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You must not have spent much time on youtube if this is what you found to rant about. While I think it's an excellent example of what is wrong with western pleasure it's not an example of acute abusive behaviour.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> OK, first of all....do you have permission from the owner to post that video here and then ridicule it? That person in the vid happens to me a friend of mine. You are SO NOT COOL for posting that vid without her permission.


If it's on youtube it's fair game, gotta be careful what you release out to the public. Not for or against, just pointing out


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> You must not have spent much time on youtube if this is what you found to rant about. While I think it's an excellent example of what is wrong with western pleasure it's not an example of acute abusive behaviour.


I don't think it's abusive. There is no beating, wicked spurring...ect, but I just don't like the martengale and how she chose to use it...


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

Tianimalz said:


> If it's on youtube it's fair game, gotta be careful what you release out to the public. Not for or against, just pointing out


 
Agreed. We all post videos to share on this forum. Just because you know this person does not mean that it is all of a sudden the wrong thing to do. The point of youtube is to share videos with EVERYONE. you need to be able to handle the comments, good and bad, that come along with it.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> OK, first of all....do you have permission from the owner to post that video here and then ridicule it? That person in the vid happens to me a friend of mine. You are SO NOT COOL for posting that vid without her permission.


I also know the horse & rider in the video,so also was surprised to see the video posted:-(. That horse has a naturally low headset & quiet relaxed demeanor with or without the running martingale he would travel much the same.I do not see some overly low headset.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Following this thread to see if maybe I can learn a few things from the Western Pleasurers (Like that phrase? :lol, not interested in doing it myself, but interested if a few new things can be learnt.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I dont agree with the training, the judging, the gaits, the unnatural movements, or anything whatsoever about it, So really not interested in the training methods. I dont see anything at all I would ever want my horse to do. 
If someone doenst want people lookiing at their videos, dont post them on Youtube.

But you start off by saying no disrespect and I dont wanna bash WP, then you proceed to bash WP. 
I dont like it, many others dont. SOme people do. I dont see anything really abusive, just stuff I dont like or want my horse to do. To each his own


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> I don't think it's abusive. There is no beating, wicked spurring...ect, but I just don't like the martengale and how she chose to use it...


Well, then why didn't you just email her or share a comment on her Youtube page?????? No, instead you come here, post a Youtube vid and then start ranking on it. Did you not have the nerve to open a discussion with her privately about how you don't like the way she uses the martingale???


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

wetrain17 said:


> Agreed. We all post videos to share on this forum. Just because you know this person does not mean that it is all of a sudden the wrong thing to do. The point of youtube is to share videos with EVERYONE. you need to be able to handle the comments, good and bad, that come along with it.


Ok....so then you go post a vid on Youtube, send me the link...and then I'll post it on ANOTHER horse forum so people can rip it apart. Make sure you PM me with the link.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Joe4d said:


> I dont agree with the training, the judging, the gaits, the unnatural movements, or anything whatsoever about it, So really not interested in the training methods. I dont see anything at all I would ever want my horse to do.


Hey Joe, I think we have disagreed on things in the past, but I agree with you 1000% on this! 

I can't stand the WP lope. If my horse ever did that I would kick him up in speed. Ugh! It's not graceful, it's not smooth, it doesn't look comfortable or natural for the horse. It's just plain awful. Doesn't anyone like the adrenaline rush of cantering anymore? 

And since some of you know this horse, why oh why do they want it to move this way? I guess that's why I don't show. I will not make my horse into something I dislike to please someone else (a judge).


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Hey Joe, I think we have disagreed on things in the past, but I agree with you 1000% on this!
> 
> I can't stand the WP lope. If my horse ever did that I would kick him up in speed. Ugh! It's not graceful, it's not smooth, it doesn't look comfortable or natural for the horse. It's just plain awful. Doesn't anyone like the adrenaline rush of cantering anymore?
> 
> And since some of you know this horse, why oh why do they want it to move this way? I guess that's why I don't show. I will not make my horse into something I dislike to please someone else (a judge).


Do you know the WP industry at all? Well, I'll fill you in a little. It may not be your cup of tea, but it's the cup of tea for many people....me included. These horses are bred specifically to go slow naturally. If I hand gallop my WP horse, and I do to keep his mind fresh....he HATES IT! He was not bred for speed in mindset. He's bred with the right conformation AND mindset to go low and slow. Sure, there are a bunch out there that are being forced to go slow. But we all got a clue a LONG TIME ago that we can breed certain PROVEN bloodlines with the right conformation and mind.

ETA: and I don't MAKE my horse do something he dislikes to please a judge. We was bred for WP and that's what he does.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm sorry but nothing beats a *good* WP lope. IF you've got a naturally slow legged horse that can get into a nice cadenced lope, it actually makes for a really nice ride. Yes there are some out there that look like crippled bobble heads, but that's not what is supposed to look like. Going fast can be fun, but slowing it down can be nice too. I always say don't bash it till you try it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

All the WP people say that the crippled bobbleheads aren't what a WP horse really is but if you look at the horses that are winning both at local and national levels you see the cripple looking tropers.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ do you get to a lot of AQHA shows on a regular basis? The horses use describe don't make the judge's card.


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## stephiibean (Jan 24, 2012)

I'm no western rider - I have done it in the past but I mainly rode Reiners. Had a bash on a couple of pleasure horses and it was all too slow for my liking!! 

How does the martingale effect the horses head position that much though? It seems a lot different to a standard english running martingale? I saw no strap around the neck?
Or is it exactly the same thing and I've got it all wrapped round my neck. From what I know of martingales (again only ever used them in english riding) is that they help keep the horse from raising its head too high. The horse can still raise its head though and they don't keep them down (especially not that low)

Am just curious to know how the martingale differs, if it does differ that is, to an english martingale and how it is keeping the horses head that low?!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't want to get into a debate about the merits of WP but these horses are supposedly the best of the best and I can't see any of them that are in a true canter. Most are skipping with thier HQ. The outside hind leg is always trailing the inside hindleg and there is no engagement of the hindquarters or true collection.


Skip to about 8:00 to see the "loping".


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

OK maybe so, but here's an example of what a western lope is supposed to look like:






This horse is round, collected, and cadenced. Granted this is a horsemanship class (because you're right most of the world WP horses are strung out and bobbley) but the principle _should_ be the same in the rail classes too. Is it taking time for things to shift in this direction? Absolutely! But I have faith we'll get there eventually.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I would like to note this horse is in a training session not showing in some WP class.He is not a finished WP horse with some pro trainer.She is working on refinement of cues & body control.He is responding to that well in his exercises you can see him supple & show shoulder control .This all aids his progression of using his body as a whole as he learns self carriage. For a young horse & owner/rider I see them progressing well


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You have a lot more faith and patience than I do. Even that horse was dragging its outside hind toe in a place or two.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

In response to a question asked earlier, the horse's head will stay low without the training fork (or as hunt seat people call them, martingale.) It's NOT meant to get a headset....yet many people think that is WHY they are used.

What a training fork does, on young horses such as my friend's in the video, it teaches the horse that with a SLIGHT lift of hand (and leg pressure from the rider), on a draped rein...that the horse is to lift the back and rate. When you put on a training fork and go long with the rein, even the slightest UPWARD motion of the hand with engage the bit because of the training fork. Because WP horses are ridden on a drape rein with virtually no hand/mouth contact, they need to learn that LEG with a slight raise of HAND is their cue. 

In hunt seat....there is constant contact, in WP there is none. SO in hunt seat, if you wanted to send a signal through your hand to your horse's mouth, all you would need to do is sponge the reins or put more pressure with your fingers around the rein. We don't have that option with a western horse on a loose rein. That's why people will use a training fork to relay the signal to the horse through hand.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

kevinshorses, it looks like it's limping, eh? To slow the lope - okay, but to slow it sooo much that it looks unnatural... eeeeeh. That's a bit iffy. I don't like it. That's me. I actually don't care what people do with their horses. It's their horse. Not mine. 

People bash team roping and barrel racing and such all the time. I don't go flip because of it. I say, "Whatever, I'll keep doing what I like and leave them complaining." If someone posted a video of me training my horse and bashed it, I probably wouldn't make it a big deal, unless something waaay offside was said. I'd probably not say anything cause then it would turn into what we have here.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> I don't want to get into a debate about the merits of WP but these horses are supposedly the best of the best and I can't see any of them that are in a true canter. Most are skipping with thier HQ. The outside hind leg is always trailing the inside hindleg and there is no engagement of the hindquarters or true collection.
> 
> 
> Skip to about 8:00 to see the "loping".
> ...


I don't have to see the video, I show AQHA and have for almost 2 decades. You didn't answer my question though....how often do you get to AQHA shows on a regular basis? You are forming an opinion by watching one class on a video.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> You have a lot more faith and patience than I do. Even that horse was dragging its outside hind toe in a place or two.


Because that horse is what we call "slow legged". It doesn't mean they are crippled or lame....they just have the natural ability with training enhancements to be able to move their legs THAT slow. It takes a super fit horse with an exceptional topline and good use of legs to be able to do that. See this is where seeking knowledge in what REALLY goes in in the WP industry comes in handy. Knowledge is power.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Ink said:


> OK maybe so, but here's an example of what a western lope is supposed to look like:
> 
> 2011 AQHA Amateur Horsemanship World Champion - YouTube
> 
> This horse is round, collected, and cadenced. Granted this is a horsemanship class (because you're right most of the world WP horses are strung out and bobbley) but the principle _should_ be the same in the rail classes too. Is it taking time for things to shift in this direction? Absolutely! But I have faith we'll get there eventually.


OMG, You have got to be kidding me. They are supposed to look like that ? That horse looks lame, My 30 yo looked like that right before I put him down. I laughed my a#$ off when the girl said, "When you add some speed". Good grief my horse walks that fast.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> I don't have to see the video, I show AQHA and have for almost 2 decades. You didn't answer my question though....how often do you get to AQHA shows on a regular basis? You are forming an opinion by watching one class on a video.


I don't go to many AQHA shows and I don't believe I could stay awake through an entire Pleasure class. That's why I posted a video of the Masters class at the World Quarter Horse Congress. I don't know what it takes to be a "master" but the title would lead me to believe that these are horses and riders that have won a show or two.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> In hunt seat....there is constant contact, in WP there is none. SO in hunt seat, if you wanted to send a signal through your hand to your horse's mouth, all you would need to do is sponge the reins or put more pressure with your fingers around the rein. We don't have that option with a western horse on a loose rein. That's why people will use a training fork to relay the signal to the horse through hand.



I do kind of wish you didn't have to completely throw your horses head away in the WP classes. I'm all for riding on a loose rein, but when you have to take up a good foot and a half of rein before you even come close to hitting the horse's mouth, it's a bit overkill. That being said, you have to hand it to the trainers that they can get all that done without touching the horse's face. If you've never ridden a horse with a good spur stop, you should. It's a blast!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> OMG, You have got to be kidding me. They are supposed to look like that ? That horse looks lame, My 30 yo looked like that right before I put him down. I laughed my a#$ off when the girl said, "When you add some speed". Good grief my horse walks that fast.


And that's great for you and your horse! If I wanted speed I'd go get a timed event horse, but that's not what I choose to do. Just like YOU don't choose to do WP. It really irks me when people talk down on a discipline they have no clue about.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> I don't go to many AQHA shows and I don't believe I could stay awake through an entire Pleasure class. That's why I posted a video of the Masters class at the World Quarter Horse Congress. I don't know what it takes to be a "master" but the title would lead me to believe that these are horses and riders that have won a show or two.


Thanks for answering my question and I thought so...that you don't go to AQHA shows regularly, so you are totally basing your opinion on watching 20 horses in a class. Get where I am going with this?


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

Joe4d said:


> OMG, You have got to be kidding me. They are supposed to look like that ? That horse looks lame, My 30 yo looked like that right before I put him down. I laughed my a#$ off when the girl said, "When you add some speed". Good grief my horse walks that fast.



I don't think he looks lame at all actually. He's carrying himself quite well, driving from behind and not having to overuse his neck to balance. This is a nice collected horse who happens to be moving slowly. And did you see those lead changes? They were so beautifully flat you almost can't even see him change on the second one. A crippled horse could not do that. 

I understand that this speed and style of riding may not be your preference, but you should at least have some respect for the level of training shown here.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Ink said:


> I do kind of wish you didn't have to completely throw your horses head away in the WP classes. I'm all for riding on a loose rein, but when you have to take up a good foot and a half of rein before you even come close to hitting the horse's mouth, it's a bit overkill. That being said, you have to hand it to the trainers that they can get all that done without touching the horse's face. If you've never ridden a horse with a good spur stop, you should. It's a blast!


You don't have to totally throw the reins away. Judges actually DON"T like it when you have such a drape that your horse could get a front leg caught. And that is where correct training and a talented WP bred horse come in...you shouldn't HAVE to have your hand at your chin for a correction. It should come from your legs and a slight raise. If your hand is at your chin, you have holes in your training.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> Thanks for answering my question and I thought so...that you don't go to AQHA shows regularly, so you are totally basing your opinion on watching 20 horses in a class. Get where I am going with this?


They were the top 20 horses in the world. Get where I'm going with this?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

I guess what I am saying in this thread, that don't bash something you don't know *anything* about. It would be no different than me bashing someone I don't EVEN know, JUST because I don't like the way they look. Or, that I look at all people with red hair as being stupid....without even knowing them!!! Do some research and become enlightened first when it comes to horse disciplines you have no experience or knowledge in. But then not everyone thinks like me when it comes to this. I get the knowledge FIRST, then form a KNOWLEDGEABLE opinion. It seems the most logical thing to do.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> They were the top 20 horses in the world. Get where I'm going with this?


 
Yep, I totally get where you are going with this. You don't have experiencce or knowledge of the sport and are basing your opinion SOLELY on what you see. It's a shame really. But to each their own.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

What I'm saying is that while I may not know the intricacies of WP I am not unfamiliar with equine biomechanics and the way a horse should move. If you want to train your horse to perform like that then go ahead but it's not natural for a horse to move like that and it probably isn't healthy either.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Well then. Some love it, some hate it. We havent gotten anywhere. And so it goes.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

*Please don't flame me*

First, I will acknowledge that I KNOW NOTHING about WP or Dressage or Reiners.

But, several people have been having a discussion about "unnatural" head set in a horse training for WP.

Over the past few months, I've seen a few videos on dressage and gaited horse showing (TW and Standard-bred). 

Without flaming me, because I honestly don't know, what is the difference between teaching a horse an extended gait (did I even say that correctly?) and odd movements and what the WP people are doing?

Don't all riding / competition styles impose some level of unnatural perfection on the horse learnt through training and repitition and maybe some 'tools'?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> What I'm saying is that while I may not know the intricacies of WP I am not unfamiliar with equine biomechanics and the way a horse should move. If you want to train your horse to perform like that then go ahead but it's not natural for a horse to move like that and it probably isn't healthy either.


But they ARE bred to move that slow....I guess you didn't read my other post about it. And my horse is 17 years old now, still showing AQHA WP and he's never been lame OR body sore in his life. You know why? Because it takes a physically fit horse to perform like this, in TOP body condition.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Are we done now? We could bicker about disciplines for the rest of our lives and get about as far as we have today. I just wanted to see if anyone else agreed with me. And some do, some don't. There was no need to blow this out of proportion this much.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Isn't one of the rules to WP is that the poll should be no lower than the withers?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

QHriderKE said:


> Are we done now? We could bicker about disciplines for the rest of our lives and get about as far as we have today. I just wanted to see if anyone else agreed with me. And some do, some don't. There was no need to blow this out of proportion this much.


Funny, I actually know a girl who rode her horse in a running martingale and a curb bit... I was like ??????


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## DejaVu (Jul 6, 2011)

I haven't read through all the comments, so excuse me if I repeat anything.

Now. That horse looks like an extremely well bred WP show horse. Multiple times did I see the martingale have slack in it. It wasn't "tying" his head down. These horses, when bred properly, require little headset training. They naturally carry low. I know so many pleasure horses, who actually find it harder to work with their poll up much higher than their wither. Low and level is where they like it.

Now, my own gelding, is not WP show bred. He comes from cow horse blood. WP is harder for him, since he's bred in a more stock horse build. Big butt, higher set neck, downhill, big chest, ready to work a cow. He's more comfortable with his head a little higher than judges would like, but I'm not pushing him any lower, because then it would become unnatural for him. Genetically, he's just not capable without uncomfort.
I pretty much keep him in the pattern classes, because he can move out more, and be okay with his head set slightly higher. We'll enter the pleasure classes if I'm in it for the points, but if not, we'll just stick with patterns.

I personally believe martingales aren't needed, and there's other ways to achieve a nice headset properly from the hindquarter and forward, but that's me and my preference to train. The martingale looks to have been used properly, the horse wasn't fighting it, and he was very obviously relaxed in his frame. Low is natural for him.


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## HarleyWood (Oct 14, 2011)

im not a big fan but my QH has his head that low all the time. i did no training and have had no restraints on him. weather im riding/leading/in pasture his heads low like that. hes not a WP horse just trail horse with cow backround


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## CanadianSage (Jan 30, 2012)

well, since we now have argued about everything possible LOL.

I will post.

*I* am the rider AND owner AND sole trainer of the said horse in the video. I am NOT going to come on here and say you shouldnt have posted the video because yes, I posted it on a PUBLIC site so people could see it. You all have valid opinions/observations, etc. I also chose to stay quiet to see where it would go.

I will tell you this and only this (I AM NOT going to explain myself, or my training methods or WHY I do WP with my horse, etc.) the martingale WAS NOT put on him for headset, I put it on so I could refine a few more cues, I DO NOT put it on so he cannot raise his head.

That being said. I am "flattered" you decided to post this particular video to use as an example. There are also other videos on my youtube account (if you care to go look) that show this gelding doing "reining" and english also with a little girl riding him....he is also starting beginning steps to learning how to jump, and I have been throwing a rope off of him.

There's a few events I dont agree with, but I won't "judge" unless I find out background info on the event, and learn to understand it.

So I do ask, to please respect us WP riders. You dont have to like it and you can say it thats fine, but please respect us....I give you respect as well.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Horse looked good in the video. Some horses on the top 20 video were canting their heads to inside, and hindquarters out. That is because they are slowed too much, that I hate to see. If a horse can slow down as much as possible, and remain straight on the rail, that is athletic. The canting inward is awful to watch for me. How those horses even qualified for that class is beyond me, bad judging IMHO. The paint in the video was slow & straight, his rider is doing a good job, because a tad slower and she would have a 4 beat, he's at the verge but he remains loping, that is strength. Don't put down WP, done properly it's beauty in slow motion. Only a well bred horse can do it, if yours can't, tough for you. Any horse can speed around, difficult part is slowing it down.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Ink said:


> I don't think he looks lame at all actually. He's carrying himself quite well, driving from behind and not having to overuse his neck to balance. This is a nice collected horse who happens to be moving slowly. And did you see those lead changes? They were so beautifully flat you almost can't even see him change on the second one. A crippled horse could not do that.
> 
> I understand that this speed and style of riding may not be your preference, but you should at least have some respect for the level of training shown here.


You're right, it must take alot of work to make a horse look like he is gonna fall over on his face. 
You guys say we dont know anything or follow the sport and then post a video of what is supposed to be perfect. Honestly thats turning me off even more. I had a few notions before but I had no idea it was much worse than I had imagined. 
Those movements are terrible, who in the heck decided that was pleasurable and why do people go along with it ?


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

Okay seriously guys..you put a video on YouTube, that means its there for everyone to see. There are no rules saying you can't post them on a forum & say your opinion on it..

If she was saying that was her & it wasn't..now that would be a different story. Just because it is your friend doesn't mean different rules apply to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When I look at WP, which is almost never, I'm reminded of the Texan who was visiting Israel. After seeing an Israeli farm, he turned and told the Israeli farmer,

"At home, when I get on my horse, I can ride in any direction for a week and still not reach the edge of my property!"

The Israeli nodded. "I'm sorry", he said. "I used to own a horse like that too!"

Oh well. WP is so far from anything I want to do on a horse that I might as well be a dog watching TV. Doesn't seem abusive, though.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> You're right, it must take alot of work to make a horse look like he is gonna fall over on his face.
> You guys say we dont know anything or follow the sport and then post a video of what is supposed to be perfect. Honestly thats turning me off even more. I had a few notions before but I had no idea it was much worse than I had imagined.
> Those movements are terrible, who in the heck decided that was pleasurable and why do people go along with it ?


You can still show Western pleasure, just show open. Around here, open shows, that horse probably won't place. Here, they want a LEVEL neck, they see it fall below for more than 3 strides, you get the gate. Also, the horse is marked down for head bobbing, they want smooth.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

if you are on this forum to learn things,don't ridicule the trainers and their ways of doing it.all trainers do things different,but they do them for a reason.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

I love how the OP complains that the head was 'so low'. That neck was level, so I really don't see an issue.

I have shown WP, I love WP. While my horse gets passed at the walk and jog, even by the 'infamous' slow-slow-slow trainers, I do have to move to the inside at the lope because I want three beats. He goes a little faster than the tropers or the sideways rail hogs, but he remains true to gait and has a pleasant expression on his face. This has granted us a top three in every Open WP class we've been in.

His head is level at walk and jog, and a little more raised at the lope. He's not a typically bred WP horse, he is more halter bred but after showing him in HUS for five years, he got really tired of extending, which is a shame because he is a gorgeous mover. He's quite happy with jogging and loping - it's so much less work in his opinion! And trust me, he wanted to be a pleasure horse. He literally just started going slow one day on his own. We tried to 'make' him a WP pony, but it never worked. It was his decision entirely... and now he's forcing me to buy chap$.


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## CanadianSage (Jan 30, 2012)

Joe4d said:


> You guys say we dont know anything or follow the sport and then post a video of what is supposed to be perfect.
> 
> Those movements are terrible, who in the heck decided that was pleasurable and why do people go along with it ?


1. WHO said that my horse and I are "perfect"? I sure the heck didnt, and I havent seen anyone else say that. there are WAY better pleasure horses out there than my gelding (in my personal opinion). The video posted was because I was using a martingale (or I like to call it a training fork) and she didnt like it.

2. Just because pleasure is NOT your cup of tea, doesnt mean others dont enjoy it. I personally dont WANT to go fast, I like the slow easy pace and the time and commitment and hard work it takes to get a really nice pleasure horse and YES some horses enjoy it, just watch em out in their pens.

I DO NOT like going super fast, I DO NOT like barrel racing or eventing, its NOT my cup of tea, but do I go out and pick it apart? Nope, because I still have respect to those who do it as I know what time and energy and commitment it takes to do different events.

not to start a halter debate, but for example I dont like Halter (the big time halter) BUT that being said I have a HUGE HUGE HUGE respect for the people who do it. Do I want to own a horse that will never be rode, and just walk and trot and stand still in the ring with? No, BUT there are people out there that DO and I respect that.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

CanadianSage said:


> ...and YES some horses enjoy it, just watch em out in their pens...


No offense, ride as you please...but that phrase just gave me a mental picture of a bunch of mustangs doing a WP lope across a hillside...:lol:


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Hmmm, so many disciplines and sooooo many opinions! I think we all can learn something from each.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

Joe4d said:


> You're right, it must take alot of work to make a horse look like he is gonna fall over on his face.
> You guys say we dont know anything or follow the sport and then post a video of what is supposed to be perfect. Honestly thats turning me off even more. I had a few notions before but I had no idea it was much worse than I had imagined.
> Those movements are terrible, who in the heck decided that was pleasurable and why do people go along with it ?



I'm beginning to think we aren't watching the same video. For heaven's sake that horse is _*collected*_! He's not moving any differently than I would want to see a hunter or even dressage (talking training level) horse move, and yes I ride both in addition to western. He's just not quite as forward as they would be. That horse's head isn't even close to being on the floor, and he certainly doesn't look like he's "falling on his face". Clearly you have no idea how much training and conditioning it takes for a horse to be able to carry himself in frame like that, and even more so to get those smooth flying changes. 

You are entitled to your opinion of course. I'm not asking you to like it, or even try it, but I would appreciate a little respect.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Ink said:


> ...For heaven's sake that horse is _*collected*_! He's not moving any differently than I would want to see a hunter or even dressage (talking training level) horse move, and yes I ride both in addition to western...


No, he is NOT collected. When the rear hooves are kicking up dirt in FRONT of them, you don't have a collected horse. Collection requires THRUST to come from the rear, not DRAG. Slow does not equal collection. You are entitled to ride your horse that way, and it is strictly your business and not mine. It isn't mean to the horse, so enjoy yourselves. But that is NOT the way a hunter or dressage horse should move...


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Here is my two cents.

What happened to the western pleasure that looked natural?
And yes, I get that todays AQHA horses are BRED to go that slow.
Which is a HUGE shame. Weren't quarter horses supposed to be versatile? Fastest horse over a quarter mile? Why on earth would you want them to go THAT SLOW? When was that a desirable trait?! Since when was that something you wanted to do, let's say, working on a ranch? Gonna rope that cow doing a half-mile-an-hour lope? No probably not.
Who decided to breed for characteristics that would put the horse desirable in events that barely even show what the breed was intended for? Look. My horse can go super slow and be collected, with it's neck perfectly level...Okay. So what? What does that PROVE? Like cutting...proves that your horse can work a cow. Reining...proves your horse is well trained and responds to cues. Barrel racing...proves your horse has rate, speed and power. Racing...need I even say.
I don't care if they are happy going super slow, it's the fact it has no PURPOSE. I don't find going that slow "pleasurable" and I find no pleasure in wanting my horse to walk faster than a jogging turtle.
What happened to the studs that could sire cutting, racing, and halter champions? Isn't that more desirable than a horse that enjoys going slow?

What happened to pleasure that was composed of REAL horses?


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

bsms said:


> No, he is NOT collected. When the rear hooves are kicking up dirt in FRONT of them, you don't have a collected horse. Collection requires THRUST to come from the rear, not DRAG. Slow does not equal collection. You are entitled to ride your horse that way, and it is strictly your business and not mine. It isn't mean to the horse, so enjoy yourselves. But that is NOT the way a hunter or dressage horse should move...


If you're ever in Indiana, and you want to ride a truly collected pleasure horse, come see me


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Actually, riding a collected gait isn't high on my list of priorities. However, when the rear hooves kick up dirt in FRONT of them, the horse is dragging his rear feet. That means no thrust is coming from the rear, only drag - and that means the horse cannot be collected.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

bsms said:


> No, he is NOT collected. When the rear hooves are kicking up dirt in FRONT of them, you don't have a collected horse. Collection requires THRUST to come from the rear, not DRAG. Slow does not equal collection. You are entitled to ride your horse that way, and it is strictly your business and not mine. It isn't mean to the horse, so enjoy yourselves. But that is NOT the way a hunter or dressage horse should move...



I have to disagree with you. I see a horse who is engaging his hind quarters and lifting through his back. That to me is collection. It would look quite different if he was strung out and pulling himself along with the front. I never said slow is the same thing as collected. Speed doesn't make collection either. I'm saying that is is possible to be BOTH slow and collected.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

MangoRoX87 said:


> Here is my two cents.
> 
> What happened to the western pleasure that looked natural?
> And yes, I get that todays AQHA horses are BRED to go that slow.
> ...



OK you've got some valid points here. I do think it's silly that the Quarter Horse has gotten so specialized for certain events to the point where you can almost classify them as different breeds.

A little history on Western Pleasure: First of all WP was originally intended as a foundation for other classes: reining, western riding, trail, etc. The _point_ was to show that your horse was broke enough to go around the ring at all three gaits in a quite relaxed manner. Eventually it came to be that the horses placing consistently were slower, working with a level headset and loose reins. In the interest of winning competitions, people took the slow and low to an extreme, following the notion that if some is good more is better. The same thing happened with the halter horses and the extreme body types people started breeding for (but that's an entirely different debate). I think WP as a whole is slowly taking steps away from those extremes. It's still not perfect, but hey, there are problems with every discipline when you come right down to it. 

It may not make any sense to you, but that's more or less the idea behind the class. I think we've strayed pretty far from the OP's original comments :wink: Perhaps we should all just agree to disagree, ride how we want, and call it a day.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Ink said:


> I have to disagree with you. I see a horse who is engaging his hind quarters and lifting through his back. That to me is collection. It would look quite different if he was strung out and pulling himself along with the front...


I guess we'll just have to disagree. I see a horse that is providing almost no power from behind, carrying most of his weight on the front.

Mind you, I don't think collection is the goal of all riding. For my purposes, it has little value. But when I joined the forum, I argued with some of the dressage folks about collection - and for the record, they were right and I was wrong.

I just finished watching my mare Mia get a lesson. Her movement was mostly well balanced, relaxed, and fluid. But it wasn't collected. Her weight wasn't being carried by the rear. Her jog was what I think a WP should jog like: relaxed, smooth, faster than a walk but easy to ride and sustain. But it wasn't collected.

I expect my horses to gather themselves or maybe collect when we're preparing for an acceleration, or to power themselves thru a tight turn. They are starting to do that. But none of them can maintain a collected pace, carrying weight on their hind legs and lifting well with their backs. And I don't care. That isn't what I want to ride. I'd rather have them extend...or accept a slow, relaxed, comfortable jog. Mia & I have had our fair share of problems, which is why she is getting professional training now, but we've covered a lot of ground with her relaxed jog. Faster than a walk, but smooth, relaxed, and comfortable for both of us. It is a good pace. It is admirable. But it isn't collected.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

MangoRoX87 said:


> Here is my two cents.
> 
> What happened to the western pleasure that looked natural?
> And yes, I get that todays AQHA horses are BRED to go that slow.
> ...


This ^^ is gold.


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## mystykat (Dec 4, 2011)

The horse is dead, but it's still being beaten.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

These kind of threads are like Zombies. They eat your brain and are almost impossible to stop!


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## mystykat (Dec 4, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> These kind of threads are like Zombies. They eat your brain and are almost impossible to stop!


 
I did read absolutely every reply on here. I must say - some pretty passionate people for and against. Though I personally am pretty neutral, never really followed it but it was pretty interesting to read the debate..until the debate started over again..and then again haha


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I read a couple comments before posting. First off, that's a training fork, not a martingale, it's a bit different. 

As for the rest... to each his own. I personally enjoy western pleasure and I think it's pretty amazing what these horse can do .....


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

bsms said:


> No, he is NOT collected. When the rear hooves are kicking up dirt in FRONT of them, you don't have a collected horse. Collection requires THRUST to come from the rear, not DRAG. *Slow does not equal collection. *You are entitled to ride your horse that way, and it is strictly your business and not mine. It isn't mean to the horse, so enjoy yourselves. But that is NOT the way a hunter or dressage horse should move...


No slow does not mean collection....but neither does FAST mean collection!! You can have slow AND be collected...takes a talented horse to do it.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

MangoRoX87 said:


> Here is my two cents.
> 
> What happened to the western pleasure that looked natural?
> And yes, I get that todays AQHA horses are BRED to go that slow.
> ...


Ummmm....in case haven't heard.....Quarter Horses have become specialized the last couple of decades. ONCE AGAIN, do some research first and you will get the answers to questions in your post.

And to the bolded comment....it serves a purpose to many people. Who gives a flip if it serves a purpose to YOU, I certainly don't care. Does Dressage serve a purpose?? I'm talking top level Dressage?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> No slow does not mean collection....but neither does FAST mean collection!!


Fast does NOT equal collection, which is why in part I don't place much value on collection. However, you cannot have collection without having significant thrust coming from the hind end. And the horses in the videos are going slow, but they are NOT pushing with their rear.

When a horse pushes from the rear, the power can go into forward motion (extension) or into lifting the back and supporting weight (collection). But it must PUSH from the rear to do either. If it is taking baby steps with the rear legs, kicking up lots of dirt in front of the hooves, and none behind, then in what sense is the horse collected? Where is the floating motion?

I tend to prefer speed to floating, and I am NOT a dressage rider in any sense - to my relief, and the relief of dressage riders everywhere! So I'll probably buffoon this, but this is more what I expect to see in a collected horse:


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

I think we can all agree that the average western pleasure horse isn't going to have to collect to the same degree as a grand prix dressage horse. But that doesn't mean collection is completely absent from the pleasure horse either.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

bsms makes some very good points. I've never been able to detect much collection in WP horses. I think it would be a great class if it was totally overhauled at every level and serious changes were made so that horses could travel naturally and at a normal speed.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

bsms said:


> Fast does NOT equal collection, which is why in part I don't place much value on collection. However, you cannot have collection without having significant thrust coming from the hind end. And the horses in the videos are going slow, but they are NOT pushing with their rear.
> 
> When a horse pushes from the rear, the power can go into forward motion (extension) or into lifting the back and supporting weight (collection). But it must PUSH from the rear to do either. If it is taking baby steps with the rear legs, kicking up lots of dirt in front of the hooves, and none behind, then in what sense is the horse collected? Where is the floating motion?
> 
> ...


I did ride Dressage for a few years, back a long time ago...and you like, thank God I don't compete in it either...because it's just TOO controlling and uptight. Although I DO respect what they do. 

Collection means something different to different disciplines. Now, collection to me...is that the horse is SO contained, the back rises up, their is both tempo and rhythm...you feel the back in your seat and they feel like a coiled spring. I get this with my WP at both the jog and the lope. Granted he is not upheaded like a Dressage horse, but it's collection none the less. I have hang time in the air when he's loping and I'm doing MY job to keep him lifted, slow and rated. That's what a good WP horse CAN and WILL do...and that is collection.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> bsms makes some very good points. I've never been able to detect much collection in WP horses. I think it would be a great class if it was totally overhauled at every level and serious changes *were made so that horses could travel naturally and at a normal speed*.


OMG....they are travelling naturally and that IS their normal speed! Want to let you in on a secret....they CAN go fast too! But this is what the class is about....period. A horse that can move THAT slow and relaxed and is bred to do it. 

Let me ask you something Kevin. How many "speeds" does your horse have at each gait? Seriously, how many different rates at the walk, trot and canter, and can your horse maintain each one of those "speeds" within each gait. I'll come back for your answer.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Every rider has a preference be it horse or style. 

When I watch a local level hunt horse compete, I feel like it's racing around the ring at a high rate of speed in an unbalanced manner that uses the riders tension on the rein almost as a third leg. I don't like what I see but it's a pretty popular discipline so many, many people like it.

I'm not bashing hunt and I'm merely using it as my example. I like the QH HUS/WP style. many people don't.... 

I think anyone person can pick apart any discipline don't like... To each his own I geuss....


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> Every rider has a preference be it horse or style.
> 
> When I watch a local level hunt horse compete, *I feel like it's racing around the ring at a high rate of speed in an unbalanced manner that uses the riders tension on the rein almost as a third leg. I don't like what I see but it's a pretty popular discipline so many, many people like it.*
> 
> ...


I feel the same way when I see hunters like that....hollow backed, heads up and running. But you know what, many people enjoy that so I hold my opinions to myself. The horse aren't using their bodies correctly, muscles under the neck where they shouldn't be, soreness problems start in the back....but that's what others do, so who I am to judge. You won't see me dissing in on a public forum.


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## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> OMG....they are travelling naturally and that IS their normal speed! Want to let you in on a secret....they CAN go fast too! But this is what the class is about....period. A horse that can move THAT slow and relaxed and is bred to do it.
> 
> Let me ask you something Kevin. How many "speeds" does your horse have at each gait? Seriously, how many different rates at the walk, trot and canter, and can your horse maintain each one of those "speeds" within each gait. I'll come back for your answer.


My long yearling has a natural low headset, and he naturally moves at a slower pace. He is WP and Halter bred. If I ask him he can speed it up, but when he is lunging and relaxed he keeps a level headset and moves in a nice jog. I don't like speed events- I'm not comfortable, and I'm not going to force him to do those types of events, he's not bred or bult for it. WP showcases a pleasureful ride in my opinion- something that any rider can get on and not worry about the horse running off on them. Is English Pleasure the same?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> OMG....they are travelling naturally and that IS their normal speed! Want to let you in on a secret....they CAN go fast too! But this is what the class is about....period. A horse that can move THAT slow and relaxed and is bred to do it.
> 
> Let me ask you something Kevin. How many "speeds" does your horse have at each gait? Seriously, how many different rates at the walk, trot and canter, and can your horse maintain each one of those "speeds" within each gait. I'll come back for your answer.


They can go as fast or as slow as I want them too. I don't have different speeds. My horse COULD walk that slow but I wouldn't allow it. They could trot that slow but why wouldn't I just let them walk. They can't maintain a real 3 beat lope at that speed but niether can any other horse that's why they "trope".


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

To the poster above Kevin, I agree, and it sounds like you have a contender there...good luck with him!

It comes down to....if you want like speed and want a timed event horse....go for it and good for you! If you like raw power and action....get a 5 gaited ASB, and good for you. If you like the thrill of being airborne....get a jumper and be happy! If you want a trail horse you can have fun on without the intricate training of a specialized horse....good for you! But you got an awful lot of cajones busting on someone who enjoys a good WP horse.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> They can go as fast or as slow as I want them too. I don't have different speeds. My horse COULD walk that slow but I wouldn't allow it. They could trot that slow but why wouldn't I just let them walk. *They can't maintain a real 3 beat lope at that speed but niether can any other horse that's why they "trope*".


Bull crap on the trope....just shows you have no clue. I guess you've seen every WP horse out there, so I guess Kevin....you are right....LOL. Pat yourself on the back.

Well I got gears in my WP horse, to bad you don't with yours.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> To the poster above Kevin, I agree, and it sounds like you have a contender there...good luck with him!
> 
> It comes down to....if you want like speed and want a timed event horse....go for it and good for you! If you like raw power and action....get a 5 gaited ASB, and good for you. If you like the thrill of being airborne....get a jumper and be happy! If you want a trail horse you can have fun on without the intricate training of a specialized horse....good for you! But you got an awful lot of cajones busting on someone who enjoys a good WP horse.


 

There's a difference between Kevin "busting on" WP and him busting on a person who enjoys WP. ONe is an opinion and one a personal attack. I do not think Kevin indulged in the personal attack. He stated his opinion pretty clearly and without personal malice. That is the way the forum works best.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Hmmm...there were some subtle low blows, but I'll call it a day on this one. My contention is, that people project a certain impression to others, when they express opinions without ANY knowledge or experience to back it up. Kinda like me....expressing an opinion on something I have NO clue about, but just looking at it on face value. Really kind of sad for the horse industry as a whole.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Why would I want "gears" on my horse. I can get them to go however fast I need them to go. Using your lexicon I have an infinite number of gears between gaits. regardless of how fast my horses go they go there with implusion and CORRECT cadence.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ my WP horse too.....true cadence and impulsion. It's obvious you and are have different views on WP; *mine* from experience and *yours* from merely visual appearance only without the experience. Thank God there is something for everyone in the horse industry. It's too bad people have to degrade other disciplines out there. I'm sure I could find faults in whatever YOU do with your horses and base opinions on soley WHAT I see, but that's not my style. Notice I haven't asked you exactly what it is you do? Because whatever you do, you obviously enjoy it...just as I enjoy my WP horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I want to make it clear that I am not attacking WP. As long as it doesn't hurt the horse, people can do any sport or style of riding they want, and I'll just be glad they are working with their horses.

I do object to a statement like this:

"He's not moving any differently than I would want to see a hunter or even dressage (talking training level) horse move, and yes I ride both in addition to western."

I would also object to the idea that non-WP have no 'gears'. At a walk & trot, I expect my horses to go at a wide variety of speeds, depending on what I ask them to do. My BLM mustang pony, however, has a fast trot that darn near makes me pee blood :shock:, so I'm trying to convince him that anything faster than a jog means canter - his canter is glass smooth.

Beyond that, I just figure WP is totally outside my interest in horses...and so what? If their riders are having fun, and the horses are not hurt, what business is it of mine? I'll say this much in their favor - I don't see a lot of WP riders telling everyone else to follow their lead! Probably a good thing, too...at that pace, there would be a huge traffic jam!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Kevin That is your opinion that your horses are moving "better" and I am glad they fit what you use them for but honey badger don't care because honey badger wants western pleasure movement.... And I like gears. I can go English, western, trail, probably could do lower level dressage, might could do side saddle and can do team penning (if I wanted) all on the same horse. That is what the AQHA style us all about....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

bsms said:


> I do object to a statement like this:
> 
> "He's not moving any differently than I would want to see a hunter or even dressage (talking training level) horse move, and yes I ride both in addition to western."


Gee thanks for taking my quote out of context. That makes it sound like I'm saying you could line all three up side by side and they'd look exactly the same. Not what I meant at all. I was trying to point out an instance of a horse moving well, and that, on a basic level, those are the same traits that are desirable in other disciplines, i.e. moving in a balanced and collected frame, which we clearly don't agree on anyway. Fundamentally, weather I'm riding in an english or western saddle, I'm working toward the same thing; it's just the presentation is a little different.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The full quote, in full context:



Ink said:


> I'm beginning to think we aren't watching the same video. For heaven's sake that horse is _*collected*_! He's not moving any differently than I would want to see a hunter or even dressage (talking training level) horse move, and yes I ride both in addition to western. He's just not quite as forward as they would be. That horse's head isn't even close to being on the floor, and he certainly doesn't look like he's "falling on his face". Clearly you have no idea how much training and conditioning it takes for a horse to be able to carry himself in frame like that, and even more so to get those smooth flying changes.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion of course. I'm not asking you to like it, or even try it, but I would appreciate a little respect.


I think darn near everyone outside of WP would say they don't want their horses to ever move like that. You are welcome to want it, but _"those are the same traits that are desirable in other disciplines, I.e. Moving in a balanced and collected frame"_ doesn't do justice to the difference in goals between WP and most other approaches to riding. I honestly don't think most WP riders have any idea of how repulsive a WP 'lope' looks to most other people.


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## DejaVu (Jul 6, 2011)

WP collection isn't grand prix dressage collection. But it's collection nonetheless.
A 17hh warmblood, high set neck, built uphill, is going to have a more upright frame when collected.
A little QH, low set neck, is going to travel long and low, in their form. Back is still round, pushing from their hind end. Yes, plently of horses out there are improperly trained, and do move off their forehand. I'm not saying all pleasure horses are these dream horses moving from their hind end. But the properly trained ones do, and it's long, low, and smooth.

WP horses aren't _real_ horses? Excuse me, but that would be like me saying dressage horses aren't real because they move with an "unnaturally" big stride...:think: Seriously? 

I'm not bashing dressage, because I do ride it, and love it, but it's the perfect example to draw this little parellel, because like WP, dressage horses at the highest prestige levels, move very distinctly, just like WP horses move very distinctly for their discipline.

I'm one, that used to find the WP lope just as repulsive as some of you do. Sometimes I still do. Some horses, are just so obviously forced into a movement unnatural for them. I think that's wrong.
But when you have a horse, that's highly bred for this pace and motion, it's beyond natural for them. It's how they are, and when you can find that slow legged mover, soft in the bridle, so happy at their pace, it's really pretty.

I draw the line at people forcing horses into WP, who aren't bred for it. Like my own gelding, he just simply can't do it, and I'm not forcing him. You can't fight genetics. That's when I have a problem with it, and that's when it looks unnatural. The head bobbing, canted, tropes. Yes, that's ugly. But a true pleasure horse, doesn't move or look like that, and it bothers me when people say that that's what WP is, and start bashing it. The true WP horse, is nowhere near that, and I really hope is knocked points in a class, so maybe the people will catch the hint.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I have a lot of respect to western pleasure...as the rules are written. I grew up in the "peanut roller" days and I learned to dislike WP and dedicated myself solely to english. In the last decade, I have seen rules written to bring WP back to where it should be. here is the rule out of the AQHA rule book;

​


> *465B. WESTERN PLEASURE*
> 
> *Refer to Rule 441(c) for specific rules regarding inhumane treatment. *
> 
> ...





However, the judges are evidently not enforcing the rules, especially the ones underlined. If those horses in the video at the congress are the best in the country....I am saddened again. I LOVED the direction AQHA was going. But, until the rules are enforced, nothing will change....ever.

Starting at 3:22 in the first video, that horse, and the one behind, should have been excused from the ring. The whole length of the arena, the horses had their poll WAY lower than the wither.

I will still love a good WP horse when it is moving as it is supposed to be moving. However, I rarely see this in the upper level show rings. Even now.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

My theory is western pleasure horses trope because they can't defy gravity. The riders have them going SO SLOW that the horse has to put extra beats in there because they can't do a normal canter that slow.

For instance, I put "English pleasure canter" in Y-tube and these are some of the very first videos that popped up. Just random videos that show what a canter should look like. The horses aren't troping and they are going relatively slow. But they are not trying to defy gravity. 






This video also shows what a normal trot looks like. You know, where the horse actually picks up their feet and not just stubs them along on the ground. And of course near the end they canter:






What is funny is I ride western. Or at least I ride in a western saddle. But the gaits I ride look more like English Pleasure than western pleasure. The gaits of English pleasure look like how a normal, healthy horse should be moving in my personal opinion.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Isn't trot supposed to have a very brief moment of suspension between the lifting off of one diagonal pair an the landing of the other? And in canter, after the leading leg (front leading) hits the ground, the horse has a moment of suspesion where he curls his hind end under him to reach the outside rear under, then the inside rear and outside fore hit, then the leading fore, then suspension.

The problem is that I often see NO suspension whatsoever in WP super slow gaits. the horse cannot lift itself off the ground to make the switch of the diagonal pairs because it doesnt' have enough forward momentum to do this. Same in canter. It seems to develop a very stiff movement that has no swing in the back at all. The horse depends solely on leg movement, loses the power of momentum and ends up being super stiff and lame looking.

I agree that these horses are bred to move that way more naturally, which is good to hear. A horse not bred for this would be really hurtin'. Still, I dont' see how it can be called a natural gait for them to go that slow and that "hobbling".
But, then, honestly, how much of human /horsemanship really IS natural?


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

LOL WP horses can't go fast  That's funny, really. I like to switch things up, my horse is a busy thinker and so am I, we get bored easily and usually run barrels and poles once or twice per year with little preparation aside from pattern work about 2 weeks before the show and we get low twenties, and sometimes place, he can go faster but I'm not quite ballsy enough to push him that hard. 

I just realized how lucky I am to have a super talented horse. I realize when I'm typing how much it sounds like BS  

I have a mare named Gladys, who is WP bred out the butt, and she can beat anyone in a race - even the race bred QH. Go figure. The people we bought her from had her set on barrels and she was running 2D times. Yap. WP horses are so slow. All the time. And they're not 'real' horses either. Mmmhm. Still have some issues to work out with her but she'll be happy jogging along in the pen soon!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Did someone actually say they are not "real" horses? I think I missed that.
Probably eat real hay, make real poo and cost real money.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Here is a video of a horse that was used by AQHA to create a teaching video for judges on a how a WP horse should look like. 
I'm sure there will still be many that don't like that "look" but I for one would love to take a spin on a horse like him he makes it look effortless.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Nice horse, for sure.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

That's what I'm talking about!! Nice mover, IMO. I really like him. No, it's not my style, but I can appreciate him a lot.

BTW, I really respect that it doesn't look like his tail has been blocked. When he swishes his tail, he appears to have full movement. Blocking tails is another rule that is rarely checked or enforced.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

blocking tails? What is that?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

It's an injection into the dock of the tail to "paralyze" it. You will notice many WP horses never even twitch their tails. AQHA requires that if a horse's tails are tested, they can at least lift the tail to the horizontal plane to be legal. Some injections are poorly done by "hacks" causing long term damage to the tail.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I show APHA{which I think is similar to AQHA} ,I don't see them checking stuff very routinely. Not to say I haven't seen spot checks of things.Before a halter class once I had a them check tails also was showing a young stud & they checked testicles{not all judges check that in the actual class:shock:}.Also one of the few riding classes I was in, a novice ammy WP class they had everyone drop their bridles in line up to have bit inspection.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> My theory is western pleasure horses trope because they can't defy gravity. The riders have them going SO SLOW that the horse has to put extra beats in there because they can't do a normal canter that slow.
> 
> For instance, I put "English pleasure canter" in Y-tube and these are some of the very first videos that popped up. Just random videos that show what a canter should look like. The horses aren't troping and they are going relatively slow. But they are not trying to defy gravity.
> 
> ...


You can't compare western to hunt seat, the gaits ae SUPPOSED to be different.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

bsms said:


> .
> 
> Beyond that, I just figure WP is totally outside my interest in horses...and so what? If their riders are having fun, and the horses are not hurt, what business is it of mine? I'll say this much in their favor - I don't see a lot of WP riders telling everyone else to follow their lead! Probably a good thing, too...at that pace, there would be a huge traffic jam!


At the WP shows I go to, at the canter the QH and paints don't even make one round around the arena before being asked for a different gait. I, on the other hand and riding an Arabian, lap them a few times and I'm not going that fast! To each their own. I expect my horses to do any discipline I get the whim to. They don't have to be perfect, but they will do it!


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> Ummmm....in case haven't heard.....Quarter Horses have become specialized the last couple of decades. ONCE AGAIN, do some research first and you will get the answers to questions in your post.
> 
> And to the bolded comment....it serves a purpose to many people. Who gives a flip if it serves a purpose to YOU, I certainly don't care. Does Dressage serve a purpose?? I'm talking top level Dressage?


Ummmmm yes I have heard and I think that it's a darn shame. I was just giving one example of it.

I have done plenty of research, and I STILL have not found the purpose of western pleasure. If you don't mind, please explain it to me.

I don't know much about dressage, but seems to me that it's keeping training from the classic spanish schools or whatever alive..along with being elegant, cadenced and having good movement.Those horses have some serious talent, that is what I call training at it's finest.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

that talent only stays in spain.a wp horse can also be used on ranches to check fencelines or ride up on a cow or horse that is down without spooking them.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

bsms said:


> I think darn near everyone outside of WP would say they don't want their horses to ever move like that. You are welcome to want it, but _"those are the same traits that are desirable in other disciplines, I.e. Moving in a balanced and collected frame"_ doesn't do justice to the difference in goals between WP and most other approaches to riding. I honestly don't think most WP riders have any idea of how repulsive a WP 'lope' looks to most other people.



Yeesh I feel like you're picking out only what you want to hear to try and prove a point. OK maybe I didn't say it that well originally. Here's the video I was referencing, just so everyone's on the same page. 






I've seen *BAD *lopes and ridden some horses who would revert to the four beat crab lope if you didn't hold them together and keep them *gasp* collected. Trust me it's not comfortable and it's really not desirable. Yes there are some sorry looking WP lopers, but the horse in that video isn't one of them. I'm sticking to my guns here. YES on the _most basic level_ getting a horse to move consistently balanced, collected and cadenced are what most people are working for weather they are riding western pleasure, hunt seat or even dressage. (I_f any other hunt seat/dressage riders think I'm totally off base here I'd really like to know because if so, my trainers and horse judging coaches have been telling me wrong for years._) When you get into the details and refinement of each discipline yes you're going to run into some significant differences. I didn't mean that the finished product is going to look _exactly _the same in all thee. Sorry if that's how you took it, I must not have been clear enough.



GotaDunQH said:


> You can't compare western to hunt seat, the gaits are SUPPOSED to be different.


I agree with this to an extent. You are getting into an apples to oranges comparison here, but to quote _My Big Fat Greek Wedding_, "they're all different, but in the end they're all fruit." SO there you go. :lol:


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> I can go English, western, trail, probably could do lower level dressage, might could do side saddle and can do team penning (if I wanted) all on the same horse. That is what the AQHA style us all about....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is exactly what I am talking about!


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

rob said:


> that talent only stays in spain.a wp horse can also be used on ranches to check fencelines or ride up on a cow or horse that is down without spooking them.


 
Wrongo! A well trained QH horse, or any breed, can do it ALL...(dressage, cows, barrels, eventing, etc)....I have one. He's semi-retired and his title now is Head Babysitter for my son!


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

in your opinion he can do them all,but that doesn't mean he's going to do them correct or be real good at them.


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

So, this has showed me just how ignorant I am of things. lol I thought I was a western pleasure rider. See I ride my horses with a western saddle and I do it for pleasure. LOL Jees I need to go back to lessons.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

fur,you are not far off.there is pleasure riding and there is western pleasure.wp is a competition class that takes alot of experience,balance,and fashion if it is done correctly.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

rob said:


> in your opinion he can do them all,but that doesn't mean he's going to do them correct or be real good at them.


Oh he did them all very well and correct! And, it isn't just my opinion. If a horse can only do one thing, then there's something wrong with his breeding or training (or lack there of).


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm trying to think of the breeds that you'll see (on average) a lot of multi-disciplined horses... 

Quarter Horse
Paint/Pinto
Appaloosa
Morgan
Arabian

are the ones that come to mind. You'll see many of them doing western and english or dressage etc....

Not sure I've ever seen an TB excel at WP. (Not saying that it CAN'T happen, but it's not the norm). I wouldn't say that if it can't do both there is something wrong with it's breeding necessarily just because a TB isn't built to move like a QH (in the sharp turn on the haunch and slow movement sort of way). Warmbloods are built for a different reason as well. 

Confirmation does play a hand in what a horse can or can't, or should or shouldn't do.... 

It really is a preference thing. I know many people think WP is pukey nasty gross. I think it's pretty neat and really, really hard. I personally put it right up there with dressage in level of dificulties... I just think the folks that are going to argue this one until they are blue in the face. I'm not changing my stance....


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

you said yourself earlier that he could do them all,but he might not be great at them.but maybe he's found a discipline that he'll be great at now.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

rob said:


> you said yourself earlier that he could do them all,but he might not be great at them.but maybe he's found a discipline that he'll be great at now.


I said he COULD do them all. He isn't going to excel at them all. That would make him a super horse if that were the case and it takes a lot to earn that title. He CAN do them all. Dressage would be a lower level, I know his limitations.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

WP = ruined gaits


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

rob said:


> you said yourself earlier that he could do them all,but he might not be great at them.but maybe he's found a discipline that he'll be great at now.


What??


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

MangoRoX87 said:


> *Ummmmm yes I have heard and I think that it's a darn shame. I was just giving one example of it.*
> 
> I have done plenty of research, and I STILL have not found the purpose of western pleasure. If you don't mind, please explain it to me.
> 
> I don't know much about dressage, but seems to me that it's keeping training from the classic spanish schools or whatever alive..along with being elegant, cadenced and having good movement.Those horses have some serious talent, that is what I call training at it's finest.


It's a darn shame that the QH is THAT versatile that it can do many different discipline within the breed? How is that a shame? Wow...is all I have to say.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

paintedpastures said:


> Here is a video of a horse that was used by AQHA to create a teaching video for judges on a how a WP horse should look like.
> I'm sure there will still be many that don't like that "look" but I for one would love to take a spin on a horse like him he makes it look effortless.
> Great Western Pleasure Sire Radical Revolution - YouTube


While I think anyone on the outside looking in at WP doesn't quite understand the slow, slow movement, I do think those horses are pretty athletic. I agree with GotaDunQH. Those horses are bred to move that way. IMO, it's too bad the sport went into slowness overkill. There is nothing more beautiful than watching a true WP horse like the one in this video.


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## DejaVu (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm aware this isn't western pleasure, this is western riding, but go to the 5:45 mark, since everything else isn't relevant to this discussion. 
Even though the horse at the end of this video is doing western riding, and moving out a bit more, I just want to point out his movement. I can't help but wonder what he looks like when she slows him down a fraction for WP. I bet he's just as smooth. Good example of high breeding, and proper training for a balanced, slow horse.
I'm not even going to say anything about those lead changes. That's one balanced horse. 

Again, skip to around the 5:45 mark.






I'm pretty much done with this conversation, because I have a feeling it's not ending, but I just wanted to show the horse at the end of this video, so people can get tropes, and canting out of their minds. The video posted above me, also shows excellent paces, similar to the horse in this video.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, it still looked like a crippled crab to me. If I want an incredibly slow moving trot, I'll ask for a walk. If I want a super slow canter, I'll ask for a trot. If I really want to move at 0.5 mph, I'll stop, roll a cigarette, smoke it, and THEN ask for a walk. 

If someone wants to do generations of breeding, and then extensive training to get the same results...that is their business.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> It's a darn shame that the QH is THAT versatile that it can do many different discipline within the breed? How is that a shame? Wow...is all I have to say.


If that statement was true, western pleasure horses would be in cutting and on the track.

The horse itself is not versatile except for an elite few, it's all the different specialized bred horses for all of the events that make it SEEM more versatile.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I rode on a well trained WP horse once. The trot was so frigging slow I could out run him on the ground.

And the bizarre canter was so rough it felt like a lame horse on the wrong lead.

Hardly a pleasure to ride.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

DejaVu said:


> I'm aware this isn't western pleasure, this is western riding, but go to the 5:45 mark, since everything else isn't relevant to this discussion.
> Even though the horse at the end of this video is doing western riding, and moving out a bit more, I just want to point out his movement. I can't help but wonder what he looks like when she slows him down a fraction for WP. I bet he's just as smooth. Good example of high breeding, and proper training for a balanced, slow horse.
> I'm not even going to say anything about those lead changes. That's one balanced horse.
> 
> ...



I daresay some people here will still not like the way that horse is moving. But that western riding pattern is exactly what WP is supposed to be building toward: an extremely well trained horse. And weather you like the look of the gaits or not, I think it's fair to admit that it takes a lot of good training to get flying changes like that.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

just appreciate the discipline.not all of us like to jump things in our long johns with a helmet on,and we don't need to run 90m.p.h.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm not gonna argue here (as I know nothing about WP), but the whole discussion very much reminds me one of those hot discussions about dressage we have from time to time in "English Riding" section. Even arguments are similar. 

All I want to say IF the discipline is not abusive it's not very fair to judge it (should I say bash?) just because you "don't like the look", "don't like the speed", "don't like the contact", "don't like the saddle", "it's boring" (this one I hear all the time about the dressage), etc. Especially if the whole experience is just one ride (or not even one). Someone may want to do it or not (I wouldn't as I don't find it interesting for me), but bringing it down simply is not right. 

We all have different taste, and our horses have different preferences. From those videos I just watched in this thread I bet LOTS of training goes into the finished WP horse.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

bsms said:


> Well, it still looked like a crippled crab to me. If I want an incredibly slow moving trot, I'll ask for a walk. If I want a super slow canter, I'll ask for a trot. If I really want to move at 0.5 mph, I'll stop, roll a cigarette, smoke it, and THEN ask for a walk.
> 
> If someone wants to do generations of breeding, and then extensive training to get the same results...that is their business.



Again, I say agree to disagree. Clearly you and I are seeing two very different things, and neither one of us is going to change our minds. I could do a quick search on youtube and show you what "crippled crab" lope _really_ looks like (sadly it's a lot easier to find bad examples of a lope than its to find good ones), but really what's the point? 

I officially give up!
It's been fun arguing though


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I'm not gonna argue here (as I know nothing about WP), but the whole discussion very much reminds me one of those hot discussions about dressage we have from time to time in "English Riding" section. Even arguments are similar.


I couldn't agree more. I think the argument is similar because it's the same person who argues! :lol:

If riders want to hack around on their horse, that's fine. If riders want to train for a discipline, that's fine too. Who cares! I say enjoy what your doing and do the best you can.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Ink said:


> I daresay some people here will still not like the way that horse is moving. But that western riding pattern is exactly what WP is supposed to be building toward: an extremely well trained horse. And weather you like the look of the gaits or not, I think it's fair to admit that it takes a lot of good training to get flying changes like that.


The western riding videos you posted are a good example of what WP SHOULD be. The horses in both of your videos were moving about as slow at the lope as a horse can and still maintain implusion and proper cadence. The trot was a real trot and the walk, while half as fast as the slowest I'll let a horse walk, was twice as fast as the horses in the Congress video I posted. If horses went down the rail like that then I would be defending the sport just like the rest of you. However, despite the arguments about how WP is changing and how they really move better than just the examples that have been given here, i have yet to see an example of a WP horse in a WP class moving as well as these western riding horses.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

mildot said:


> I rode on a well trained WP horse once. The trot was so frigging slow I could out run him on the ground.
> 
> And the bizarre canter was so rough it felt like a lame horse on the wrong lead.
> 
> Hardly a pleasure to ride.


Sounds like he was four beating which is not correct.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> Sounds like he was four beating which is not correct.


 Yet it still wins at every show!


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

Actually it doesn't Kevin. Visit a couple of local shows every year, hardly anyone fourbeats anymore - at least up around where I live. The judges who place the tropers are the uncarded 'we couldn't get anyone cheaper so this will have to do' judges.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

PaintsPwn said:


> Actually it doesn't Kevin. Visit a couple of local shows every year, hardly anyone fourbeats anymore - at least up around where I live. The judges who place the tropers are the uncarded 'we couldn't get anyone cheaper so this will have to do' judges.


Or the ones that judge the Masters class at the Quarter Horse Congress!!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't think I've seen a four-beater at a show in quite some time. Maybe at the local shows but not at the breed levels. I think Kevin is just determined to prove that WP is poopie.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

MangoRoX87 said:


> If that statement was true, western pleasure horses would be in cutting and on the track.
> 
> The horse itself is not versatile except for an elite few, it's all the different specialized bred horses for all of the events that make it SEEM more versatile.


And I could say the same....that cutters and racers would be doing WP. What's the point you were trying to make????


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

mildot said:


> I rode on a well trained WP horse once. The trot was so frigging slow I could out run him on the ground.
> 
> And the bizarre canter was so rough it felt like a lame horse on the wrong lead.
> 
> Hardly a pleasure to ride.


That's too bad....probably wasn't a well-trained top level horse.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> Yet it still wins at every show!


4 beaters? NO WAY......they get slammed HARD by judges. At the AQHA shows I went to in 2011, the 4 beaters didn't make the judges cards. Now, if you go to an open show....you'll still see them.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

I went to one WP show to see what it was about, they threatened to toss me out if I didn't quit snoring as it was spooking their highly trained horses (OK, not quite true but close). Shocked me to the core when they asked the audience to sit down, shut up and don't move while horses were in the ring. I was told it was because they were such "expensive" horses, whatever.

If you want to ride WP, go for it and have fun. For myself, I find it boring, meaningless and will not attend another show. I do however really enjoy poking fun at WP riders!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Darrin said:


> I went to one WP show to see what it was about, they threatened to toss me out if I didn't quit snoring as it was spooking their highly trained horses (OK, not quite true but close). Shocked me to the core when they asked the audience to sit down, shut up and don't move while horses were in the ring. I was told it was because they were such "expensive" horses, whatever.
> 
> If you want to ride WP, go for it and have fun. For myself, I find it boring, meaningless and will not attend another show. I do however really enjoy poking fun at WP riders!


 
That may be the only post in the whole thread that I totally agree with!!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Darrin said:


> I went to one WP show to see what it was about, they threatened to toss me out if I didn't quit snoring as it was spooking their highly trained horses (OK, not quite true but close). Shocked me to the core when they asked the audience to sit down, shut up and don't move while horses were in the ring. I was told it was because they were such "expensive" horses, whatever.
> 
> If you want to ride WP, go for it and have fun. For myself, I find it boring, meaningless and will not attend another show. I do however really enjoy poking fun at WP riders!


To be fair, a fairly quiet (but not hospital quiet) is expected during most arena competitions that I am familiar with such as dressage and jumping. Not because the horses are expensive, but because it's fair to not expect riders and horses to put in their best performance with a bunch of unnecessary distractions in addition to those that normally occur at a horse show.

But I've never, ever heard of people being told to not move while a horse is in the arena and I have been to watch Grand Prix level events. It don't get no higher than that.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Darrin said:


> I went to one WP show to see what it was about, they threatened to toss me out if I didn't quit snoring as it was spooking their highly trained horses (OK, not quite true but close). Shocked me to the core when they asked the audience to sit down, shut up and don't move while horses were in the ring. I was told it was because they were such "expensive" horses, whatever.
> 
> If you want to ride WP, go for it and have fun. For myself, I find it boring, meaningless and will not attend another show. I do however really enjoy poking fun at WP riders!


Really? That surprises me with all of the dogs and the golf carts, mopeds, bicycles, tents, music, clippers, cell phones, etc that are at these shows. Are you sure you were at a WP show?????

I remember a couple years at state fair we were between the Tundra Truck Challenge and the Demolition Derby. There were no warm-up rings and we had to cross a parking lot to even get to the ring....


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

DejaVu said:


> Again, skip to around the 5:45 mark.
> 
> Western Riding Clinic and Competition, from the 2010 American Quarter Horse Youth World Cup - YouTube


This horse moves better than most of them. Of course, it is also team Germany and not an actual WP class. Maybe they can't stand troping in Germany. And if so, good for them! 

I do have an honest question, from a farrier standpoint. I have always wondered if WP horses have a higher incidence of navicular than the regular Quarter Horse population. Because they honestly don't seem to pick up their feet very well. I doubt they are getting good heel first landings. 

Are WP horses particularly navicular prone due to the way they travel?


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

First and only show I've been to that the audience had anything like this asked of them. Every other show just announces the class and people carry on like normal. Clapping, hooting, hollering, kids running around, etc are the norm. But this one, dagger looks were given to people who talked louder then a whisper with serious looks of disapproval if you got out of your seat. I'm talking it was **** near dead quiet during each class, unnatural if you ask me.

On the other end of the spectrum, went to a trainers only TWH show. Audience was asked to make as much noise as possible during the final class to see if any of the horses could be rattled (none were).


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> This horse moves better than most of them. Of course, it is also team Germany and not an actual WP class. Maybe they can't stand troping in Germany. And if so, good for them!
> 
> I do have an honest question, from a farrier standpoint. I have always wondered if WP horses have a higher incidence of navicular than the regular Quarter Horse population. Because they honestly don't seem to pick up their feet very well. I doubt they are getting good heel first landings.
> 
> Are WP horses particularly navicular prone due to the way they travel?


I don't think so. The ones that I would think that would be navicular prone would be the halter horses with all of that muscle mass and those tiny feet...


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Or the ones that judge the Masters class at the Quarter Horse Congress!!


I do say politics is involved. Don't dare **** off the BNT's! I mean come on, if Cleve Wells still has clients and wins shows, there is obviously a bunch of BS going on in the score sheets.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> This horse moves better than most of them.


That was downright painful to watch. It's as if they purposely want their horses completely unbalanced and on the forehand, with the hind legs barely moving fwd.


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## IquitosARG10 (Aug 27, 2011)

Correct me if I appear ignorant, as I ride English, but the people I have boarded with in the past who are WP only turn their horses out for about 2 hours a day, have fake tails, black crap put around their eyes, and they all have dead personalities. Again, not accusing, as I love quarter horses, but this is just unnatural. In Dressage, there are to be no embellishments. 

I am really not trying to point fingers, as there are crazies in every discipline (like the dressage riders whose horses have white necks and open sores on their necks from such tight reins).

My friends rode English, but were briefly at a WP barn. OMG. The stuff I heard was just insane. All their horses were kept inside with these dumb lights over the stalls and people on here are going to claim that WP has the purpose of being able to heard cows and run a fenceline? These horses would probably spook at a cow bc they've never seen one.

I believe that some of the movements ARE truly beautiful and very lovely to watch, but is all the other stuff really necessary? (again, not accusing everyone of this, but overall this is what I see.) When done correctly and the well being of the animal is respected, I have no issue. If you get rid of all the cheap and cheesy bling, I think it is gorgeous to watch. The natural way...


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## IquitosARG10 (Aug 27, 2011)

Horse Training or Abuse? From Horse&Rider | EquiSearch.com

Just addressing previous posts on this thread.


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

kind of late to the party here but anyways

I see nothing wrong with the martingale, you obviously know nothing about the proper use of one if you think this one is "too tight". If any tool the rider is using the most it would be their reins, she is asking this horse to keeps its head down by asking him to bridle up, not because she has anything hooked to keep the head down....martingales don't do that, the reins pull through them, so the tightness of it all depends on the tightness of the reins and this rider is riding with what I would call a loose rein.

I also want to say not only is the low head set a must have in western pleasure but it is something, I think, is an important thing to have in horses of ALL disciplines. Of course not as low as WP horses carry their heads but the plus of having a horse that carries their head low is great! Not only does it allow them to properly work and even do the simplest things like backing up correctly but you will have a so much easier time handling a horse that has a low head set. If the horse has its head up you have no control of the horse AT ALL!

Not trying to bash you or anything but just like you did with this video you posted I am going to make an observation and assumption about you.
I would be willing to bet my life that the horse that you have in your avvy picture is very high headed.
I would also be willing to bet that it is very rare that you get nice quality runs out of this horse, and he/she probably has a very odd turn style.
I would also be willing to bet the reason why is because he/she keeps his/her head high and you have slight to little control over this horse.
I may be wrong, but I would be willing to bet I am right.

Just like you I am not trying to start something, but also just like you I have offended someone without intending to.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

sierrams1123 said:


> ...I also want to say not only is the low head set a must have in western pleasure but it is something, I think, is an important thing to have in horses of ALL disciplines. Of course not as low as WP horses carry their heads but the plus of having a horse that carries their head low is great! Not only does it allow them to properly work and even do the simplest things like backing up correctly but you will have a so much easier time handling a horse that has a low head set. If the horse has its head up you have no control of the horse AT ALL!...
> 
> ...I would also be willing to bet the reason why is because he/she keeps his/her head high and you have slight to little control over this horse...


Don't tell my Arabian mare. Or my Appy, who is 3/4 Arabian. 30 deg high is normal for them. I don't call it high until they pass the 45 deg mark. And low, really low, is maybe 10 deg low. Any lower, and that means they are eating. :wink:

And don't tell my wife. She is supposed to get her third riding lesson in as many years on the Appy this morning, and she won't do it if she learns she will have no control of the horse at all!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

sierrams1123 said:


> I also want to say not only is the low head set a must have in western pleasure but it is something, I think, is an important thing to have in horses of ALL disciplines. Of course not as low as WP horses carry their heads but the plus of having a horse that carries their head low is great! Not only does it allow them to properly work and even do the simplest things like backing up correctly but you will have a so much easier time handling a horse that has a low head set. If the horse has its head up you have no control of the horse AT ALL!


That is simply not correct.

At the lower levels of training in dressage, a low headset helps develop topline and back muscles. As horses progress through the training scale and their ability to collect improves, the low headset becomes a hindrance and is in no way necessary for control.

Do not confuse evasion of the bit from above with the more upright, heavily muscled neck of an upper level dressage horse.

And riding a horse over fences with your style of headset is tantamount to a death wish.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> Don't tell my Arabian mare. Or my Appy, who is 3/4 Arabian. 30 deg high is normal for them. I don't call it high until they pass the 45 deg mark. And low, really low, is maybe 10 deg low. Any lower, and that means they are eating. :wink:
> 
> And don't tell my wife. She is supposed to get her third riding lesson in as many years on the Appy this morning, and she won't do it if she learns she will have no control of the horse at all!


Agree, and the same goes for the Morgans I've ridden.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

IquitosARG10 said:


> Correct me if I appear ignorant, as I ride English, but the people I have boarded with in the past who are WP only turn their horses out for about 2 hours a day, have fake tails, black crap put around their eyes, and they all have dead personalities. Again, not accusing, as I love quarter horses, but this is just unnatural. In Dressage, there are to be no embellishments.


My horse is out 24/7 with access to a walk in stall. He has TONS of personality and on show days I do put some vaseline around his eyes just because... and yes, he does have a fake tail......


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

I mostly meant western disciplines, but I know for a fact a lower head set it sought after in many english disciplines too.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> This horse moves better than most of them. Of course, it is also team Germany and not an actual WP class. Maybe they can't stand troping in Germany. And if so, good for them!
> 
> I do have an honest question, from a farrier standpoint. I have always wondered if WP horses have a higher incidence of navicular than the regular Quarter Horse population. Because they honestly don't seem to pick up their feet very well. I doubt they are getting good heel first landings.
> 
> ...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

GotaDunQH said:


> trailhorserider said:
> 
> 
> > This horse moves better than most of them. Of course, it is also team Germany and not an actual WP class. Maybe they can't stand troping in Germany. And if so, good for them!
> ...


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

IquitosARG10 said:


> Correct me if I appear ignorant, as I ride English, but the people I have boarded with in the past who are WP only turn their horses out for about 2 hours a day, have fake tails, black crap put around their eyes, and they all have dead personalities. Again, not accusing, as I love quarter horses, but this is just unnatural. In Dressage, there are to be no embellishments.
> 
> I am really not trying to point fingers, as there are crazies in every discipline (like the dressage riders whose horses have white necks and open sores on their necks from such tight reins).
> 
> ...


Lots of generalizations in this post. I sure could "generalize" YOUR sport if you want.

My horse gets turned out a few hours a day BECAUSE there are only 4 turn outs and 13 horses. Many of these boarding facilities only have so many pastures and paddocks. Black crap around the eyes and muzzle...it's part of show turnout especially if you are showing Halter or Showmanship. We aren't the only people that do it....go to any local, open or breed show and you'll see it. Fake tail....I use one; bought one last year after ALL these years of showing AQHA. My horse has become folically challenged with his tail the last few years. What's the big deal with using a fake tail anyway? Geesh....untwist your panties! If it's tied in correctly and not TOO big for a horse that has lost alot of tail hair, they look great. Lights....well they keep a slick show coat on a horse because a lot of these horses are shown year round. Lots of people do it across ALL th disciplines.

The dead personalities? Please...that's the sign of a good minded and SANE horse. Lastly, my horse is not afraid of cows. Last place I boarded at had two cows and my horse didn't care a lick.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> GotaDunQH said:
> 
> 
> > Just adding due to conformation, not way of movement...
> ...


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

To the one who said WP horses get 2 hours of turn out and have dead personalities.. I present to you.. THE BUTT. Who gets turned out every day until usually about 10-11pm, because if you don't be becomes Mr. Cranky Pants.



















But I guess there is one thing though... I do abuse him for my own amusement, and he just stands there and takes it. No halter or anything:









And he's also VERY unrounded and uncollected! (I think this was our first ride of the year last year actually LOL)












Point here is to stop putting all eggs in one basket and making assumptions. Just because Anky VanGrunsven rollkurs the sheetz out of every horse she rides, doesn't mean I expect all Dutch people to ride their horses the same way.

I used one local WP trainer who has won no major titles who believed in the 4 hours per day or less turn out system, and some days they didn't get turn out. He's the one who told me to sell my horse because he'd never be anything special. I went to a guy who has won APHA and PtHA WP and HUS World Championship titles, who turns out every day for several hours per day as long as the owner allows it, and who told me Cowbutt could be a PtHA world caliber horse for HUS -and- WP.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ love your horse....what a good minded soul to let you dress him up! LOL.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

Tehehe he looks like the guy from that Rock of Love show with his wig and bandanna.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'll share personality too!


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

sierrams1123 said:


> kind of late to the party here but anyways
> 
> Not trying to bash you or anything but just like you did with this video you posted I am going to make an observation and assumption about you.
> I would be willing to bet my life that the horse that you have in your avvy picture is very high headed.
> ...


Correction: That mare is a Heading horse, she naturally has a different turn than a barrel horse. That run was just me fooling around on the barrel pattern for the first time in 2 years. It's not meant to be perfect.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

Ink said:


> Tehehe he looks like the guy from that Rock of Love show with his wig and bandanna.


We were Slash and Axl Rose (Guns N Roses) for a halloween horse show  Made the top 10 cut out of over 30 horses, and didn't place in the top 6, but we did get an honorable mention!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

farmpony84 said:


> I'll share personality too!


Me likey VERY MUCH!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> Correction: That mare is a Heading horse, she naturally has a different turn than a barrel horse. That run was just me fooling around on the barrel pattern for the first time in 2 years. It's not meant to be perfect.


But see, she was basing her post on what she observed in a video and making assumptions....pretty much like those of you have been doing with the WP. So, when the shoe is on the other foot....


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Actually, I believe of all the people arguing on this thread, I hardly said anything. Yes, I do look at WP videos and go, "Ick." But this was the first time I've ever said anything about it to anyone but my dad and a couple friends.


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## IquitosARG10 (Aug 27, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> Lots of generalizations in this post. I sure could "generalize" YOUR sport if you want.
> 
> My horse gets turned out a few hours a day BECAUSE there are only 4 turn outs and 13 horses. Many of these boarding facilities only have so many pastures and paddocks. Black crap around the eyes and muzzle...it's part of show turnout especially if you are showing Halter or Showmanship. We aren't the only people that do it....go to any local, open or breed show and you'll see it. Fake tail....I use one; bought one last year after ALL these years of showing AQHA. My horse has become folically challenged with his tail the last few years. What's the big deal with using a fake tail anyway? Geesh....untwist your panties! If it's tied in correctly and not TOO big for a horse that has lost alot of tail hair, they look great. Lights....well they keep a slick show coat on a horse because a lot of these horses are shown year round. Lots of people do it across ALL th disciplines.
> 
> The dead personalities? Please...that's the sign of a good minded and SANE horse. Lastly, my horse is not afraid of cows. Last place I boarded at had two cows and my horse didn't care a lick.


This post explains a lot to me.

Now I know why I don't hang around WP people. Thanks for the enlightenment!

Oh, and my panties are not twisted. But apparently there are a lot people on here whose are. I really don't care. Just sharing my experiences.


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## IquitosARG10 (Aug 27, 2011)

I think what bothers me the most is your definition of a dead personality, and the fact that you're ok with it. Wow. That is really a shame. And very, very sad.


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## Lunarflowermaiden (Aug 17, 2010)

Wow this has been an entertaining thread.

Personally I don't see much pleasure in western pleasure, but I also probably wouldn't run barrels (not that any of the horses I normally ride are in anyway suitable for barrel racing). But that is just me, and if you like it, fine. 

What I do have a problem with, is the two year old shows that they have. Meaning any horse entered in that show, started being ridden at around 18-20 months old. Which is just plain wrong.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

IquitosARG10 said:


> This post explains a lot to me.
> 
> Now I know why I don't hang around WP people. Thanks for the enlightenment!
> 
> Oh, and my panties are not twisted. But apparently there are a lot people on here whose are. I really don't care. Just sharing my experiences.


I had a terrible experience with a dressage barn I worked at. Does that make me 'enlightened' and not hang out with them or respect what they do? No. But I'm not close minded either, unless someone is blatantly wrong and making assumptions.

If you're judging a dead personality on what you see in the show pen, then you really need to get a grip - and I do believe that's all you have seen of WP since you "don't hang around WP people" THUS, means you've never been around any good WP horses. Of course they're going to behave in the pen, because they've been trained to behave.


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## IquitosARG10 (Aug 27, 2011)

PaintsPwn said:


> I had a terrible experience with a dressage barn I worked at. Does that make me 'enlightened' and not hang out with them or respect what they do? No. But I'm not close minded either, unless someone is blatantly wrong and making assumptions.
> 
> If you're judging a dead personality on what you see in the show pen, then you really need to get a grip - and I do believe that's all you have seen of WP since you "don't hang around WP people" THUS, means you've never been around any good WP horses. Of course they're going to behave in the pen, because they've been trained to behave.


I'm not judging WP as a whole, I'm merely saying that is what I've seen with it. I'm not a dressage rider either (although I have started to become intersted in it). I boarded at a dressage barn and left because they were so horrible. But their horses were turned out all day at least. The WP boarders had their horses turned out for 2 hours...the people I've met at other barns had no turn out for their horses. My comment on the personality is that they just don't look happy. I wouldn't be either if I had to stand in a stall all day. I never said this was the case with EVERYONE. I believe I said this was MY experience.

It bothered me when another posted said that dead = well behaved, and with that I just simply do not agree.

I don't go to WP shows, and that's why I have said nothing about WP shows. I don't have an angry tone in saying this (Except a previous post which made me a little angry). The only thing I have defended about dressage is that there are no embellishments when it comes to the show ring, which I prefer. I'm not into the fake tails and all that stuff!

Not trying to make enemies here, I just don't understand why the horses are never turned out and why, in shows, fake tails and oils are necessary. Just an opinion. Sorry for ruffling the feathers that I have.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

IquitosARG10 said:


> I'm not judging WP as a whole, I'm merely saying that is what I've seen with it. I'm not a dressage rider either (although I have started to become intersted in it). I boarded at a dressage barn and left because they were so horrible. But their horses were turned out all day at least. The WP boarders had their horses turned out for 2 hours...the people I've met at other barns had no turn out for their horses. My comment on the personality is that they just don't look happy. I wouldn't be either if I had to stand in a stall all day. I never said this was the case with EVERYONE. I believe I said this was MY experience.
> 
> *It bothered me when another posted said that dead = well behaved, and with that I just simply do not agree.*
> 
> ...


How can you even say that? It's the horse personality!!!! It has nothing to do with the discipline...it has to do with the mindset of the horse! I own a quiet horse who HAPPENS to do WP. He also does hunt seat and dressage.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

IquitosARG10 said:


> This post explains a lot to me.
> 
> Now I know why I don't hang around WP people. Thanks for the enlightenment!
> 
> Oh, and my panties are not twisted. But apparently there are a lot people on here whose are. I really don't care. Just sharing my experiences.


I'm sorry your experiences have been so limited with WP. But I don't think what anyone on this thread who is defending their discipline of WP embellishes any more than what I have seen owners do with other disciplines. I think your judgements are being a little harsh. 

As far as barns go, many barns only turn out for two hours. There are just too many horses and not enough pens. It's a numbers game, not an uppity game. 

I'm also curious as to why people keep going back to the slowness of the sport. That's what the sport is - slow and controlled. Those horses are not being hurt or made lame. If you have ever watched someone train a good WP horse, you would see the movements involved are difficult and in no way could a horse who was lame do it. It may look like some of them are, but as discussed, that is not what is desireable. I also haven't seen anyone on this thread defend the "trope".

It also takes a certain kind of mind for a good WP horse. It's not that the horse is a dead head, but rather more of a thinking and methodical mind. If I had my choice, I would rather take a western pleasure mind than any other. 

And just to add, I ride dressage 99% of the time.


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## CanadianSage (Jan 30, 2012)

Just to let you all know, all my horses are turned out 24/7 as that is how it is set up where I board. And my gelding has THE MOST interesting personality I have ever had in a horse. He is silly and quirky. Yet quiet undersaddle.

Here is an example of some of his sillyness...


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ Canadian...that is hysterical!


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