# mouth cuts - HELP!!



## toosleepy (Jan 14, 2009)

if it were me and he had a cut on his tongue i wouldn't ride in a bit for a few weeks to give it time to heal, try a bosal or hackamore. i'd also find that bit with out the sharp edges on it if possible.


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

that's a good idea, thanks!!


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Minor mouth, especially tongue injuries heal VERY quickly if horses are anything like people. I remember when my son cut his tongue and as a young mom I was freaking because I couldn't figure out where the blood was coming from. The doctor in ER said I couldn find it because by the time I washed him up and started looking, it was already closing up. She said you wouldn't even see it the next day if you knew where to look.

However, I wouldn't use that bit -- again... Why the points? Seems dangerous to me.


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

When I bought him, his trainer said that he went crazy if he was ridden in any other bit. I can ride him in the arena with a plain double jointed full cheek, but out in the open, he needs a more severe bit or else he will run off.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Sounds to me like a training issue, not a horse issue. I'd get away from that bit as it can be VERY dangerous and incredibly painful. Also a few more incidents like the one you already had, then your horse will have scar tissue and will have SERIOUS bitting issues when his tongue is all scarred up.

If you need more control in a field, learn how to use your leg to move his hind end over, haunches in, leg yield, circles, get him to pay attention. If you aren't able to do this with him then I highly suggest that you find a trainer to work with who can work with both your horse and you. Overall that bit can do a lot of damage and there are far more less harsh alternatives to riding a horse safely without a bit of that caliber and danger.


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

Getting him to pay attention is not the issue, we are quite schooled in the lateral movements, and my trainer is a Grand Prix jumper. The problem is that he will suddenly get out of hand, running off like crazy. Before I bought him, his trainer said that he threw a girl into a fence when she was riding him out in the open in a plain snaffle. They also said they tried various hackamores and some very WEIRD looking bits, and found the segunda to be the easiest to ride him in. He was a lesson horse for a few years before I bought him, and he was always ridden in this bit, even by inexperienced riders. I think that this has caused him to have a very hard mouth and be difficult to bit. I'm leaning towards this bit - http://equusunlimited.com/contents/media/464729.jpg - because I've heard a lot of lovely things about it. This event has definitely scared me out of using my segunda again, and until I can work up enough money to buy the pessoa, I'm riding him in a dr. bristol full cheek.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

any horse can be retrained to have a more sensitive mouth - a hard mouthed horse is usually just one that learned to ignore the bit all together. I've been retraining a 21 year old Morgan that was ridden ALL his life in double twisted wires and double bridles and was as hard mouthed as they come - in lessons AND by children....

He's now in a happy mouth snaffle outside and in the ring, and learning to respond to seat and aids other than the bit in his mouth. 

If your horse is getting out of hand and running off like crazy as you say, I'd more than definitely say that there's an issue with him paying attention to you! If he was completely focused on you, then running off wouldn't be an issue at all.


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

It's weird, we'll be out happily hacking in the field, and then suddenly, a bush will move, or a helicopter will fly overhead, or a squirrel will come down a tree, and he jumps a foot and runs off. It doesn't matter what we're doing too, we could be walking on the buckle or schooling cross country, but he always find something to spook at. He's been like this since the moment I got on him, and I've just recently tried using Parelli methods to calm him down. He spooks in the arenas too, but once he spooks out in the polo field (where we hack at my barn), he's almost unstoppable. He seems to do it less when I lounge him before riding, but I did lounge him before he threw me off.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

While not a fan of parelli per se, i think the games are a great idea. if you can teach him to STAY focused on you (it sounds like you have him focused, he just loses focus), then you should be fine in a softer bit. Also try exercises outside the ring but on the ground where if he takes off, you're not getting thrown and I'd assume that he'd come back after his run to the barn since that is where he's fed (assuming there are no dangerous/nearby roads). If you work on keeping his focus while longing, it will be easier to keep his focus while riding. Try whispering while longing so he has to strain to hear you, and stay focused on YOU not on stuff around him. Good luck!


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

thanks!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

I'd also like to add, how LOVELY it is that on this forum, everyone reads and responds w/o getting rude or snippy!!!! There's a few myspace horse groups that I'm a member of and I barely reply anymore because it all turns into a heated debate where someone calls the other one's horse a mule, and the other one chimes in with your a bad rider....blech. Personal attacks are dumb. This was an awesome thread b/c I learned something too - it's not just the bit on this horse, or the training, but seems to be the FOCUS. Totally changed my point of view on what would work to keep his attention


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

Ditto!! Although I might not get too angry if someone called Leo a mule, he can certainly act like one sometimes!! lol


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Keep us posted with what happens with this guy. And what bit you decide on.


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

def will, I'm trying him in a new bit tomorrow


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## morganshow11 (Dec 19, 2008)

Ya, like Toosleepy said, use a Hackamore of a bosal. I have my horse under a Hackamore, and he does SOOOOOOOOO much better than with a ported bit. That bit looks a lil harsh, but i don't know?


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## shellyshoe (Mar 12, 2007)

Hi there
i just wanted to ask do you hack out with other horse... i know i would never dream of hacking my horse with out a buddy for him. i would only get the same, bucking bolting.... horse are herd animals... so hack him in a herd. maybe it will help


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

I tried him in a new bit today and he seemed to do well. We jumped in it and he felt really soft, too. It's a comfort snaffle from Myler bits, here it is:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I really like that bit, it will be so much softer on his mouth than that other one. I hope you have much better luck with him. I would love to see some pictures.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Nice bit. I like that. I guess he didn't go crazy like his trainer said he does??? I hope this works out for you. Remember to work on training, esp now with this bit that hopefully won't be such a distraction for him as the other one.


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

He was very good, I jumped very high in this new bit and he was soft the whole time! He was also happier to put the bit in his mouth, I kinda felt like it molded to the inside of his mouth. He was a bit quicker, but that's to be expected after being ridden in the segunda.


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

Here's a video of him being ridden in the new bit - 



It DOES include a blooper!! But before that, he was wonderful I thought.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

i am glad that you found a bit that works ... i know that when i got my mares i asked what they used on them and they said one thing but i have found that another bit fits better- it's always nice to discover something that makes your horse happy!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

I'm happy that the new bit is working out for you.

If I may offer some advice/critique (if not stop reading now :wink but I'd really like to see you start working with him on getting him round and soft. He's rather inverted through the neck and hollow in the back, which is part of why his form over fences is somewhat sloppy and his jump lacks power and impulsion. He also seems stiff in that left hip and stifle and perhaps is out of whack chiropractically. He doesn't use his hind end properly when moving and when taking off the weakness in that left hip becomes more apparent as he uses his neck and forehand to sort of chuck himself over the fences.

In addition, it seems that you are quite grippy with your knee and lack a proper lower leg foundation, so as the fences got larger, your position got looser, which eventually led to the refusal at the end. By raising your stirrups a hole and dropping your weight into your heel, and slightly turning out your toes, you can get away from the knee grip position you are doing over fences right now. This will help keep you from jumping ahead and getting dumped off. In addition, rather than jumping the height when your horse is not properly moving or muscled and your lower leg (and as a result your upper body) is not secure, I'd prefer to see work on cavaletti, grids, and lots and lots of grids with no stirrups and reins. I'd also be focusing on entire lessons in two point with a focus on elongating the thigh and calf muscles as you drop your weight into your heel. This will help keep you more secure in your tack, and eventually lead you to be able to take a proper contact with your horse allowing him to propel from behind rather than pulling on the fore the way he moves now.

While working on your position, your horse could also benefit from some longing with long side reins (not too much and I'd have that left hip checked first as longing will simply exacerbate the chiro issue if there is one), and encourage him to stretch down rather than invert and hollow. Initially he will be better off trying this without a rider as it's asking him to use his body in a completley different way than before. As he starts to stretch down and accept the bit, he will be able to build muscles and move off the hind end more. *Cheers to the new bit! None of this would have worked in the old bit as nearly no horse will take a contact or reach for/accept that bit! 

*And finally, please consider checking your saddle fit. Your horse looks pretty narrow and I have a feeling that the saddle may actually be hitting his withers slightly especially over the larger fences in landing, which will only further exacerbate the head in the air/hollow back way of going that he does now.

Hope this helps and glad that you're on your way to a better ride with the new softer bit!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Oh and please take the standing martingale off! It's not helping to keep his head down - it's just acting as a band aid to the problem (and not a very effective one at that!)


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## jaredmtucker (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree with CJ82Sky. Stay away from shanks. And don't worry about your horses mouth, it'll heal quickly. Do worry about the possibility of damaging his mouth again. This leads me back to my original point.


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

CJ82Sky said:


> I'm happy that the new bit is working out for you.
> 
> If I may offer some advice/critique (if not stop reading now :wink but I'd really like to see you start working with him on getting him round and soft. He's rather inverted through the neck and hollow in the back, which is part of why his form over fences is somewhat sloppy and his jump lacks power and impulsion. He also seems stiff in that left hip and stifle and perhaps is out of whack chiropractically. He doesn't use his hind end properly when moving and when taking off the weakness in that left hip becomes more apparent as he uses his neck and forehand to sort of chuck himself over the fences.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the wonderful advice, but I DO have a trainer. He is an international level Grand Prix jumper who has ridden with and competed against Olympic medalists. He is the best, most knowledgeable show jumping trainer in my state and every single aspect of this horse and my riding is carefully and thoroughly critiqued by him. As for Leo's miserable jumping form which I will acknowledge, I bought him a little over half a year ago and he has always jumped this way, even when he was ridden by a Maclay finalist in his sale videos, and even when my trainer jumps him. I did not buy Leo because he jumped or moved like a dutch wb, I bought him because he has tons of heart and we fit well together. As for MY position, no one is perfect and I am a result of my trainer's instruction. He taught me how to ride this way and his riding style works when the jumps go up. As for his back, he has mild arthritis in his hip and my vet has just given Leo his first shot of Adequan a few days ago. However, if the Adequan doesn't clear it up, I do know a wonderful horse chiropractor that helped my last horse recover from an injury.

Believe it or not, when he wants to be, he can move and use himself like an incredible dressage horse, and I've won a few dressage blues on him in Training level. I am working on him getting softer over fences, and for the past week we've been walking over crossrails. As for the saddle, it doesn't fit right and as soon as I can afford it, I'm taking it to a saddle fitter to get it adjusted. Until then, I have a bumper pad that worked really well with my last horse that I will try with Leo. Hopefully when he gains more muscles, he won't be quite so thin!

The refusal is due to the fact that we had never jumped an oxer that wide before, and neither of our confidence was up where it should be. We've been working on oxer a lot more lately so we can nail them at our next show.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Regardless of who your trainer is (and just because someone is a successful rider does not automatically make them a trainer - not judging YOUR trainer as I do not know them at all and have no reason to judge, just saying in general) or what they have done, or who rode your horse in the Maclays before, I stand by my original critique. If your horse as you said, has miserable jumping form, why not work to improve it by improving his muscling and balance rather than just jump him higher which certainly isn't going to help the problem? Same goes with your position. There are valid reasons why trainers like George Morris and Robert Dover and Jim Wofford drill position and balance and muscling and conditioning into our heads.

In my opinion (and this is just MY preference) but the higher a horse jumps, the higher levels of dressage he should be able to perform at to have the balance and fluidity and flexibility to be maneuverable and adjustable on a highly technical jumper course. No a GP jumper doesn't need GP dressage, but most well trained jumpers can do 2nd level dressage. I won't even let my students show ANY jumpers until they can score in the 60s at a training level test. Winning blue means nothing imo - it's the scores and more importantly the quality of the movement that matters - no matter what discipline you are riding in.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

And glad to hear that you've started longing him to build topline and muscling - that will help tremendously in his ability to jump and improve his way of moving overall!


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## stadiumjumper101 (Mar 11, 2009)

CJ82Sky said:


> Regardless of who your trainer is (and just because someone is a successful rider does not automatically make them a trainer - not judging YOUR trainer as I do not know them at all and have no reason to judge, just saying in general) or what they have done, or who rode your horse in the Maclays before, I stand by my original critique. If your horse as you said, has miserable jumping form, why not work to improve it by improving his muscling and balance rather than just jump him higher which certainly isn't going to help the problem? Same goes with your position. There are valid reasons why trainers like George Morris and Robert Dover and Jim Wofford drill position and balance and muscling and conditioning into our heads.
> 
> In my opinion (and this is just MY preference) but the higher a horse jumps, the higher levels of dressage he should be able to perform at to have the balance and fluidity and flexibility to be maneuverable and adjustable on a highly technical jumper course. No a GP jumper doesn't need GP dressage, but most well trained jumpers can do 2nd level dressage. I won't even let my students show ANY jumpers until they can score in the 60s at a training level test. Winning blue means nothing imo - it's the scores and more importantly the quality of the movement that matters - no matter what discipline you are riding in.


The highest score he has gotten so far was a 67% on T-2, but he did score a 61% on a T-4. I definitely believe what you said about dressage being necessary for jumpers, and my trainer does require all of his horses to be schooling at least 3rd level movements before he competes them in GPs. Since I am a USPC member, I follow the Pony Club manuals and just because we don't look amazing at the moment doesn't mean we don't work on it. My goal is actually to qualify for Maclay regionals in addition to going far in the jumpers. He wasn't very well taken care of before I got him (he wasn't neglected, but he wasn't in show form) and so I'm trying hard to get him to the point where he can jump in good form and balance and so can I. Check back on us in a couple of months and I bet you'll see a huge improvement.


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