# Resisent Free Trained Horses, HELP ME?!



## JustLeaveIt2Mya (Jun 6, 2009)

The horses i work with are trained with resisence free training which means the horse is never harmed or hurt in its training, well i need help i'm afraid to saddle one horse as soon as you go on the side to tighten his cinch he's ready to bite you, what can i do to fix this habit?


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## nldiaz66 (Jul 27, 2008)

Is it just a bad habit,or something else like him being sore or wrong fit tack


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

What do you normally do when the horses act up? What has worked previously?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I'd guess the horse is probably being hurt, despite your good intentions. Check out tack, back, other potential issues... Balance International have a lot of great info on their site regarding *comfortable* saddle fit.

Assuming there is no physical prob, or you've rectified it, I would use approach & retreat & positive reinforcement, to teach him to *happily* accept the saddling process. 

*But* I would not be uncomfortable with *instant* punishment/negative reinforcement either. While I'd aim to train in such a way that it was likely not necessary, if I thought that biting was going to be likely, I'd strap a brush, rough mat or something spikey around the likliest part of my anatomy, so that I could go about my business & if he bit me, he'd cause discomfort *to himself* as opposed to me punishing him directly & after the event.

If he's fine being saddled, until it's time to do up the girth, you might start the 'retraining' there, or go back as far as necessary, if he's not fully comfortable & confident with prior steps.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

JustLeaveIt2Mya said:


> The horses i work with are trained with resisence free training which means the horse is never harmed or hurt in its training, well i need help i'm afraid to saddle one horse as soon as you go on the side to tighten his cinch he's ready to bite you, what can i do to fix this habit?


Don't saddle the horse anymore and tell the resistant free trainers to fix him.


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## JustLeaveIt2Mya (Jun 6, 2009)

well, i use to pads, a liner and a proffesional choice pad...he always cranks around at attempts to bite me while im tightening the cinch(girth)...i've tryed scratching and making it a good experiance and that seemed to help so he didnt crank around but he still jerked his head up but he didnt come around with his teeth out so that's a plus :]


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

What is resistance free training?


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

goldilockz said:


> What is resistance free training?


To quote the OP:

The horses i work with are trained with resisence free training *which means the horse is never harmed or hurt in its training, *


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Mercedes said:


> To quote the OP:
> 
> The horses i work with are trained with resisence free training *which means the horse is never harmed or hurt in its training, *


I read that, my question is how does it differ from "regular" training (that isn't abuse)?


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

JustLeaveIt2Mya said:


> well, i use to pads, a liner and a proffesional choice pad...


Is that all? You should add a pillow.

Look, the horse is in pain. Stop saddling him, stop riding him and tell these resistant free trainers to get him fixed so you don't need; two pads, a liner and a professional choice pad. And a saddle that fits would help too. :?


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

goldilockz said:


> I read that, my question is how does it differ from "regular" training (that isn't abuse)?


Ah, well that's an entirely different question than what you originally asked.

I assume, based on the information the OP has given us that resistance free training means you don't care that the horse is sore, has a saddle that doesn't fit and tries to bite you when you cinch up the saddle.


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## JustLeaveIt2Mya (Jun 6, 2009)

ok, thanks :]


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Mercedes said:


> Ah, well that's an entirely different question than what you originally asked.
> 
> I assume, based on the information the OP has given us that resistance free training means you don't care that the horse is sore, has a saddle that doesn't fit and tries to bite you when you cinch up the saddle.


It's pretty much the same question. "What is ___" and "What is the difference between _____ and _____" is, at it's foundation, the same question asked two ways.

Anyway... now I'm confused because you've contradicted yourself. If she meant the horse is *never harmed during training*, how do you come to the conclusion that *resistance free training means you don't care that the horse is sore*?

It is way too early in the morning for me :lol:

ETA: Nevermind, I googled it and have my answer. Thanks anyway!


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## JustLeaveIt2Mya (Jun 6, 2009)

no, resisent freee training is like you never harm the horse or hurt the horse in any way,


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

goldilockz said:


> It's pretty much the same question. "What is ___" and "What is the difference between _____ and _____" is, at it's foundation, the same question asked two ways.
> 
> Anyway... now I'm confused because you've contradicted yourself. If she meant the horse is *never harmed during training*, how do you come to the conclusion that *resistance free training means you don't care that the horse is sore*?
> 
> ...


It wasn't even close to being the same question and I was being sarcastic in my answer. Like, no kidding there's a contradiction here.

I hear coffee helps.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Mercedes said:


> It wasn't even close to being the same question and I was being sarcastic in my answer. Like, no kidding there's a contradiction here.
> 
> I hear coffee helps.


No need to be rude or condescending. :wink:

I don't drink coffee for two reasons: One, I'm pregnant, and Two, it's nasty.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

goldilockz said:


> No need to be rude or condescending. :wink:
> 
> I don't drink coffee for two reasons: One, I'm pregnant, and Two, it's nasty.


I wasn't. It's called the truth.

I don't do coffee either. Tastes like crap.


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## JustLeaveIt2Mya (Jun 6, 2009)

the trainer's do care, and they have the best intrest at heart...


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

JustLeaveIt2Mya said:


> the trainer's do care, and they have the best intrest at heart...


I care alot and if I did something to damage a horse either physically or mentally I could not sleep. I should watch that word physical because I will use force to get what I want but nothing that really hurts the horse.
Example. Tying a horse securely to a solid object and expecting him to stay. He can fight it if he wants, physical restraint but he will remain tied.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

Check your saddle fit, make sure you aren't cranking on the cinch when you tighten it up and check for soreness. Sounds more like he's in pain and is trying to tell you something vs. it being behavioral. Also- using a bunch of padding can actually exacerbate a saddle fit problem.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

well I am probably going to get skewered LOL but in my many years around horses I find lots of them get cranky when the girth is tightened up. I know of several who fall over and play dead if you tighten the girth too fast, that is the extreme. However signs of disagreement during saddling are common. Very often horses do it when they are not sore and it does need to be addressed. 


I mean am I the only one who knows of many horses that aren't really fond of that part of tacking up? Once you get through that they are fine and go about their business. Yes it needs to be addressed you don't want to get bit and let the horse get away with it. (unless of course its a pain issue)

Just my two cents for today.
I got a horse that already had this bad habit long before I got her. She tried several times to bite me when I tightened girth. (and I checked for pain, saddle fit, etc) and determined it was just her protesting going for a ride. After using my voice, etc. I just smacked her the neck very quickly and sharply and guess what she never did it to me again.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

One thing my husband's instructor does for the horses they ride for lessons is to make sure there are no folds of skin caught under the girth by lifting the front legs one by one. Just bent out in front to make sure all extra skin is out from under the girth.

Maybe try that.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

goldi,yes that is a good practice to do


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Mercedes said:


> Ah, well that's an entirely different question than what you originally asked.
> 
> I assume, based on the information the OP has given us that resistance free training means you don't care that the horse is sore, has a saddle that doesn't fit and tries to bite you when you cinch up the saddle.


Who got out of the wrong side of bed today??:lol:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> I should watch that word physical because I will use force to get what I want but nothing that really hurts the horse.


Think that's a great point, because often, whether the handler believes in getting 'physical' or not, the mental 'hurts' go unregarded, unrecognised.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

again if the horse is just being a bit of a brat and being naughty while you cinch the girth very often a quick smack and stern NO seem to work.....JMO


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

loosie said:


> Who got out of the wrong side of bed today??:lol:


Refute what I said then.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

lovemyponies said:


> I mean am I the only one who knows of many horses that aren't really fond of that part of tacking up?


No, you aren't the only one that have seen many. That's not the point. And 'many' doesn't mean it should be happening.

Every one I've ever seen is either sore, had a saddle that didn't fit, or people issues.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

lovemyponies said:


> well I am probably going to get skewered LOL but in my many years around horses I find lots of them get cranky when the girth is tightened up. I know of several who fall over and play dead if you tighten the girth too fast, that is the extreme. However signs of disagreement during saddling are common. Very often horses do it when they are not sore and it does need to be addressed.
> 
> 
> I mean am I the only one who knows of many horses that aren't really fond of that part of tacking up? Once you get through that they are fine and go about their business. Yes it needs to be addressed you don't want to get bit and let the horse get away with it. (unless of course its a pain issue)
> ...


1 - If you know several horses that fall over and play dead - someone is really not into the basics where you are at. The reason a horse will fall over when cinched is the nerve that is pinched in the process. Sort of like hitting your funny bone on your elbow. It goes numb and they have no control.

2 - Anytime there is a saddling issue - it needs to be addressed. Even if addressing it is by ensuring the horse is securely tied when you place the saddle. Horses never forget - they forgive. 

3 - I would never hit a horse to try and change a habit that was more than likely taught to the horse by a previous human. (see 2)


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

mom2pride said:


> What do you normally do when the horses act up? What has worked previously?



This is good advice and you might also spend some more time around the girth area without a saddle and see if there are some tender areas.

How are you drawing the cinch up?


Look for other areas that might be effecting the horses behavior.
Horses that have been cinched WRONG for years can have this reaction even though there is not pain and it is called pain memory.
It is a reaction to the pain that they used to get.

It takes time to work through some of these kind of problems.


Or You could just smack em!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mls said:


> 3 - I would never hit a horse to try and change a habit that was more than likely taught to the horse by a previous human. (see 2)


So what would you do if the horse cow kicked when you reached for the cinch under the belly?? Or how about cow kicking when you started tightening it up?

How about pulling back on cross ties when cinching??


All of this can be quickly corrected. How would you go about it???


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> So what would you do if the horse cow kicked when you reached for the cinch under the belly?? Or how about cow kicking when you started tightening it up?
> 
> How about pulling back on cross ties when cinching??
> 
> ...




I realize this is a test,but the spirit that we approach these problems is sometimes quite helpful with the solutions.

Horses across the country show these kinds of behaviors every day don't they.

I basic idea behind "Natural Horsemanship" (and I lump the major systems together for this) is that we as the handlers make an effort to figure out "WHY" the behavior exist in the first place.
We look for the root cause to the behavior.

We look at any environmental causes, and we look at the history, and here is the tough one,then we look at ourselves and ask if we helped cause the behavior.
We do this because we are trying to get out of the "action/reaction" level of training.
We are looking to fix the problem and help the horse be more comfortable with people.

I spend a lot of time helping people be more comfortable with horses also.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Marecare said:


> I realize this is a test,but the spirit that we approach these problems is sometimes quite helpful with the solutions.
> 
> Horses across the country show these kinds of behaviors every day don't they.
> 
> ...


This really says nothing about how you would handle any of the problems I brought forward. You say you would never strick a horse, never force a horse so how do you deal with my problems??
Put them on a couch and try talking them through it?? Reason with them?? Or clamp down right away, showing them that that behavior is not acceptable?
I don't reason, I just fix the problem and clamping down immediately fixes the problem. I am not going to ask if he is sore if he cow kicks me. I am not going to ask if he has a problem standing still in cross ties?? He is jsut going to do it and he will be alot happier doing it my way.
Again clamping down if anything brings an animal closer. I also work with an abused pony, one no one could catch until I started in on him. Now he is a pain anytime , anyone goes in the field. He curls his neck around you while you are walking away from him. He wants a treat, he has to curl his body around mine.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> This really says nothing about how you would handle any of the problems I brought forward. You say you would never strick a horse, never force a horse so how do you deal with my problems??
> Put them on a couch and try talking them through it?? Reason with them?? Or clamp down right away, showing them that that behavior is not acceptable?
> I don't reason, I just fix the problem and clamping down immediately fixes the problem. I am not going to ask if he is sore if he cow kicks me. I am not going to ask if he has a problem standing still in cross ties?? He is jsut going to do it and he will be alot happier doing it my way.
> Again clamping down if anything brings an animal closer. I also work with an abused pony, one no one could catch until I started in on him. Now he is a pain anytime , anyone goes in the field. He curls his neck around you while you are walking away from him. He wants a treat, he has to curl his body around mine.




You may want to direct the conversation into a "my way,your way" kind of thing,
But I am not here to prove anything.
It is my opinion that after many years of working with horses that most behavior issues are caused by the very people that are handling them.
I don't use the concept of punishment at all.
I don't need to and have not needed to for a very long time.

You need to so carry on.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> So what would you do if the horse cow kicked when you reached for the cinch under the belly?? Or how about cow kicking when you started tightening it up?
> 
> How about pulling back on cross ties when cinching??
> 
> ...


That has absolutley nothing to do with the statement I responded to.

A cow kicking horse has a lot more issues than being saddled. Back to square one on basic human/equine space.

A horse that pulls in the cross tie is typically claustrophobic. I would not put them into the situation to panic them. You do not force humans to ride in a crowded elevator if it will send them into a panic attack.

Again - I will not go after a horse for something someone else taught them. Most bad manners horses have are taught by a human. I do a lot of corrective training. Surprising what a person can do without resorting to violence.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> So what would you do if the horse cow kicked when you reached for the cinch under the belly?? Or how about cow kicking when you started tightening it up?


BTW - the true definition of a cow kick is straight out to the side not up towards you as you stand at the shoulder/withers.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

mls said:


> That has absolutley nothing to do with the statement I responded to.
> 
> A cow kicking horse has a lot more issues than being saddled. Back to square one on basic human/equine space.
> 
> ...



I agree,

It is really amazing the progress that can be made when you approach the horse from the horses point of view.

This idea is quite frightening to people that have not done it for some reason.

I think it has to do with control.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Funny how no one can give me a solution to any of these problems. I too work problem horses. I get a 8 or 9 year old quarter horse in that kicks when you touch his back legs. The lady asks me to deal with it. 
Just how do I go about dealing with it?? Do I reason with the horse trying to figure out the history? He doesn't talk so how do I know history? The lady just bought him so she doesn't know either??
Where do I start??
Do I call a vet and get him involved?? Run the ladies bill up a couple of hundred for the barn call??

this is about natural horse training?? Give me a solution to work with this horse?
Yes I have my way but pretend I know nothing. How do YOU deal with this???

We have a 17 year old mare that stands in the doorway, barn doors wide open and the cross ties are really wide. This horse is born here, spent her entire life here and still won't stand in cross ties until her mother gets a whip, waves it in her face and then she stand quietly. The lady doesn't hit her, just threatens and then she is quiet??? Is this horse closrophobic??? Is it just bad manners??
Again how would a natural horse trainer go about dealing with this???

It is easy to comdemn people that treat this rougher but tell me how using absolutely no hitting/smacking, anything you as a natural horse trainer would deal with this?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Marecare said:


> .
> It is my opinion that after many years of working with horses that most behavior issues are caused by the very people that are handling them.
> I.


I couldn't agree more


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

With ANY behavioral problem there is ALWAYS two very important moments as we (the handler) work with them.

The first moment is when they are a peace and relaxed without stress.

The next moment is they are stressed and uncomfortable.

How they get from one state to the other is all about YOUR "READ of the situation as there are thousands of possibilities.

A basic core value of good Horsemanship is to go back to a place where the horse was doing ok and work forward at a slower pace,looking for the source of the basic problem.

There are several tools to use and desensitizing is a big one.
The other tool that can be used is to ask "WHY" and to start to look for the reason.
Horses have reasons for acting out and they may not be reasons that YOU think are valid,but they make sense to the horses at the time.
There are several reasons that a horse might cow kick in that situation.

Why do you think the horse was acting that way?


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Barring any medical or physical reasons a horse is cow-kicking, I'd say he just doesn't want you doing whatever you're doing. Horses have personalities just like people, and sometimes they don't _want_ us to do whatever we're doing. They just don't feel like it.

Kind of like my gelding today that didn't want the vet palpating his inner leg. He was not injured, there were no sore spots, he just *didn't feel like it* (even though he frequently gets palpated there during massages).

He got reprimanded (he didn't need a smack, but would have gotten one if he had tried to kick again) and all was fine. We didn't go "back to the beginning" and just let him get away with being a butthead. 

And miraculously, _he tolerated it during the second attempt_!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> Funny how no one can give me a solution to any of these problems. I too work problem horses. I get a 8 or 9 year old quarter horse in that kicks when you touch his back legs. The lady asks me to deal with it.
> Just how do I go about dealing with it?? Do I reason with the horse trying to figure out the history? He doesn't talk so how do I know history? The lady just bought him so she doesn't know either??
> Where do I start??
> Do I call a vet and get him involved?? Run the ladies bill up a couple of hundred for the barn call??
> ...


You don't want solutions - you want to force the horse and be done. I never said absolutely no hitting. But hitting is not training - it is reacting. In training you need to be PROactive not REactive.

We have a trainer in the state that trains through intimidation. Yes, the horse stops the behavior. For a while. Every horse I have traced back to him eventually reverts. Beating the behavior out does not get rid of it. It merely supresses it.

We had a pony team - one of the boys would cow kick if you startled him near his flank. Got his owner "there". Did we beat him - no. He was startled and reacted. After we figured that out we ran a hand down to let him know we were coming. Never kicked again.

My husbands mare will pull when cross tied. We have owned her since she was a yearling. She KNOWS better and a quick "ACK" or "KNOCK IT OFF" will stop her but why force her into the situation, we straight tie and do not have an issue.

The horses I have worked with that kick - I use The t-touch method. Approach and retreat until they T R U S T me. I can't ask them why they kick, I have to work with it. Yes it takes time. But then anything worth doing does.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Why do you think the horse was acting that way?


I was about to nail 4 shoes on him:lol::lol::lol::lol:
My first time as a farrier for him.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Definitely check for pain first and foremost as biting, kicking, etc are the only ways horses have to show they are in pain. If it turns out he is just being a snot about it, I agree with whoever said to let him "hurt" himself. When he turns to bite you, lift your elbow up so he bumps himself on the nose or give him a loud, firm, no. If this doesn't work, send him away from you. I would use some crappy old saddle you don't mind getting hurt and as soon as he turns to bite you (If he is not in pain) send him away. Wait until he wants to come back to you, then try again. Make the hard thing difficult and the correct thing difficult. 

This has worked for me on many horses, maybe it would work for you.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mls said:


> The horses I have worked with that kick - I use The t-touch method. Approach and retreat until they T R U S T me. I can't ask them why they kick, I have to work with it. Yes it takes time. But then anything worth doing does.


I work as a farrier evenings and I don't have the luxury of working with a horse over time. I have my hour or so to shoe him and then I am off. I get a few new horses that don't co operate but that is part of the business.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

It is not the farriers job to correct the behavior, only to safely get the shoes on or the hooves trimmed. It is the job of the owner to correct the behavior for the long term. What MLS mentioned is a good solution to eliminate the behavior.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Definitely check for pain first and foremost as biting, kicking, etc are the only ways horses have to show they are in pain. If it turns out he is just being a snot about it, I agree with whoever said to let him "hurt" himself. When he turns to bite you, lift your elbow up so he bumps himself on the nose


 
The elbow works great. I am breaking new horses, basically wild horses and they like to bite and kick.:lol:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> It is not the farriers job to correct the behavior, only to safely get the shoes on or the hooves trimmed. It is the job of the owner to correct the behavior for the long term. What MLS mentioned is a good solution to eliminate the behavior.


 
I know this but what do you say to a lady that asks you to shoe her older horse?? I can't say NO. I have one lady that gives me 8 horses to do that are sweet hearts and one hanovarian that tries to take my head off. What do I say to her?? Yes I will do eight but get someone else to do the 9th?? 
No I have to play with the cards dealt me and make the most of it.

I just can't say NO to most things.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

And that solution wouldn't work for a wild horse. That solution is for a horse that is just deciding he doesn't want to be ridden today for whatever reason. There different solutions depending on the situation, of course.

ETA: And no, I wouldn't expect you to NOT shoe the horse. What I meant to say was in response to: "I work as a farrier evenings and I don't have the luxury of working with a horse over time. I have my hour or so to shoe him and then I am off. I get a few new horses that don't co operate but that is part of the business." 
What I was saying is it is the farriers job to get the horse shod and keep himself safe without attempting to train or correct the horse. It is the owners job to keep the farrier safe by taking the time to train her horse.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Definitely check for pain first and foremost as biting, kicking, etc are the only ways horses have to show they are in pain. If it turns out he is just being a snot about it, I agree with whoever said to let him "hurt" himself. When he turns to bite you, lift your elbow up so he bumps himself on the nose or give him a loud, firm, no. If this doesn't work, send him away from you. I would use some crappy old saddle you don't mind getting hurt and as soon as he turns to bite you (If he is not in pain) send him away. Wait until he wants to come back to you, then try again. Make the hard thing difficult and the correct thing easy.
> 
> This has worked for me on many horses, maybe it would work for you.


I agree with this. It's how we got AZ to stop biting when we were grooming him :lol: He would throw his head around and come in contact with a rather pointy elbow I possess.

(not gonna lie, hurt like a mofo for me sometimes too :lol (p.s. I fixed your typo lol. You said to make both the hard thing and the correct thing difficult )


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I was about to nail 4 shoes on him:lol::lol::lol::lol:
> My first time as a farrier for him.



As a farrier I am sure you have seen your share of kickers and biters.

If you were to come to my ranch to put shoes on the 28 horses that are here right now,then you would not have a problem.

My horses don't kick or bite.

I realize that in your line of work you run into bad behavior every day and it is very dangerous to you.
I would not be upset with the horse,I would be upset with the owner for not better training the horse.

I agree that in that case it is not your job.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

goldilockz said:


> I agree with this. It's how we got AZ to stop biting when we were grooming him :lol: He would throw his head around and come in contact with a rather pointy elbow I possess.
> 
> (not gonna lie, hurt like a mofo for me sometimes too :lol (p.s. I fixed your typo lol. You said to make both the hard thing and the correct thing difficult )


 
The corner of the brush that you are grooming with works just as well and doesn;t hurt your elbow.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

28 horses and not one will have a butthead day and try to lash out once? 

RiosDad: Yeah, I'm kind of a dummy sometimes :lol:


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> I know this but what do you say to a lady that asks you to shoe her older horse?? I can't say NO. I have one lady that gives me 8 horses to do that are sweet hearts and one hanovarian that tries to take my head off. What do I say to her?? Yes I will do eight but get someone else to do the 9th??
> No I have to play with the cards dealt me and make the most of it.
> 
> I just can't say NO to most things.


Yes you can. YOUR choice.

We've had the same farrier for over 20 years. He does an outstanding job. As a boarding stable he does new horses several times a year at our place. 

If a horse is a jerk, we may twitch to get the job done and then he gives the owner homework to make his job and the horses life easier. Works EVERY time.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Hah. True. I get a quicker response with an elbow then with a brush (It's more or less instant and I am completely unconnected with the punishment in their mind), but that's mostly because it's easier on me. The brush is definitely a good substitute if you're more on top of things than I.


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## Barrelracer Up (May 22, 2009)

I am going to try to bring this back to the original question of horse threatening to bite when the girth is tightened.

I had a horse that would get "cinchy" and progressively worse about it over time. I had a chiro look at him and he was misaligned in the withers, shoulder, hip and a few ribs.
When you mount up you are always going to pull on the horse no matter how lightly you try to climb aboard.

So, I would have chiro session done and see where she is.

Once that is addressed or ruled out, then work on the behavior - if it is still occurring.

And last I heard, resistance free training is where the horse learns to give to pressure. Pressure can be something as simple as your presence......like how you feel when someone is in your space. They aren't actually touching you, but you feel it. The horse learns that when they give to pressure, the pressure is removed. If they move from pressure it is increased steadily until they do. Resistance Free is from the horse not the handler!!

I will work with behavior that could be insecurity, but I will IMMEDIATELY shut down dangerous behavior. Then I will immediately find out if pain caused the behavior.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Barrelracer Up said:


> I am going to try to bring this back to the original question of horse threatening to bite when the girth is tightened.
> 
> I had a horse that would get "cinchy" and progressively worse about it over time. I had a chiro look at him and he was misaligned in the withers, shoulder, hip and a few ribs.
> When you mount up you are always going to pull on the horse no matter how lightly you try to climb aboard.
> ...



All very good points.
As a horse feels stress,pain,anxiety,or fear they "Brace" just as we do.

The idea is to get that brace out of them by relieving the thing that made them do it in the first place.

If the horse is anxious about being cinched up then step back and work on the real problem.
Someone may have tried to cut the horse in half with the cinch before or left it on after a long ride and rode will a poorly fitting saddle.

Work on the problem and not the brace or reaction.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

sorry

double post


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

mls said:


> 1 - If you know several horses that fall over and play dead - someone is really not into the basics where you are at. The reason a horse will fall over when cinched is the nerve that is pinched in the process. Sort of like hitting your funny bone on your elbow. It goes numb and they have no control.
> 
> *Okay well let me just clear that up. We had one horse that a boarder was given at our barn that did it. She is a very experienced horse person and was completely surprised the first time it happened and quickly learned to just slowly tighten the girth and it never happened when she went about it gradually. I had never seen it before... but another rider took her horse out one day and saw the horse do it. Then a few months later while visiting my sister in another state they had a pony that did it and was owned by a vet, also again, gradual tightening worked, Then while looking at a horse for sale the owner said she had one that did that too and that it was not as uncommon as one might think so that is where "several" came from. *
> 
> ...


*Why not? I had one moment with my horse and she learned that was not behavior I wanted and we got along fabulously after that.*


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Mercedes said:


> Refute what I said then.


OK, if you like. You assumed the horse was definitely in pain. You can't know that. I agree with you that it's _likely_, or if not, that he probably was previously, when he first started this behaviour, but it's definitely not the only cause of that sort of behaviour.

You assumed the trainers don't care whether the tack is hurting him. From the sounds of it, that's definitely a false assumption. If they're into this so called 'resistance free' idea, they most likely care an awful lot. That's not to say they aren't _possibly_ misguided in their ideas or ignorant about saddle pain or the likes.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> I just fix the problem and clamping down immediately fixes the problem. I am not going to ask if he is sore if he cow kicks me. I am not going to ask if he has a problem standing still in cross ties?? He is jsut going to do it and he will be alot happier doing it my way.
> Again clamping down if anything brings an animal closer.


I agree that it *can* sometimes 'fix' the problem, but depending on the horse, the problem, your relationship with them & how you do the 'clamping', it can & does often make matters 100 times worse. It is generally only a short term 'fix', to punish a horse for a behaviour, especially if you don't care about addressing the causes & being considerate of the animal. It can also lead to the horse not doing that particular behaviour again, but you've only treated the symptom, so the 'disease' will manifest in other ways, possibly more problematic in the future. Curious that you believe you're making the animal happier by punishing it. As for bringing them closer, I suspect that has everything to do with everything else you do with the animal - it doesn't come about because of the punishment.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

again agree to disagree about what works. I am a person who would much rather not to a slap to my horse if at all costs but at the same time I realize horses do react naturally to some type of dominance. I don't think that chronic behavioral issues can be fixed with dominance......but I do think a properly timed snap at a horse can teach them a lesson


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> The elbow works great. I am breaking new horses, basically wild horses and they like to bite and kick.:lol:


That's interesting. I'm here in Oz & have started quite a few untouched horses - as in brumbies or station horses that have been rounded up & yarded - the only human experiences they've known. I've found them to be generally much easier & less likely to show any defensive aggression than many horses that have 'known' people prior to 'training'. But I don't use confrontational methods either. 

I'm also a hoof care practitioner & I agree that you shouldn't have to be taking the time to train a horse when you're just being paid to trim. However, while punishment may be a 'quick fix', it's rarely a long term one. That's why I ask new clients whether their horse is well behaved & advise people that if they wish, I'm happy to spend some time with a horse who is not, but I won't just come & force the horse into something for the sake of getting the job done - after all, I hope my clients will use me more than once & I want the horse to be happy to see me next time.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

goldilockz said:


> 28 horses and not one will have a butthead day and try to lash out once?
> 
> RiosDad: Yeah, I'm kind of a dummy sometimes :lol:


I would say that would have to depend on the behaviour of the handler at the time. Eg. someone told of a horse that didn't like a vet palpitating his inner thigh. Well I too would lash out if some strange man came & assumed he could do that to me, at least without asking permission first!:shock::lol: And I'm sorry, but you might be able to force or frighten me into it the first time, but I'd do all I could to avoid it happening again.... & I'm human, supposedly able to think rationally about these things.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

lovemyponies said:


> again agree to disagree about what works. I am a person who would much rather not to a slap to my horse if at all costs but at the same time I realize horses do react naturally to some type of dominance. I don't think that chronic behavioral issues can be fixed with dominance......but I do think a properly timed snap at a horse can teach them a lesson


Hi, after reading the above, not knowing who it's directed at, I thought I'd explain my views about punishment... I have a background in behavioural psychology/training. I personally think that punishment (positive and negative) are valuable 'tools' to have in your bag of tricks. BUT punishment, especially the positive variety generally comes with many undesirable 'side effects', some of which I've described. 

I definitely think it has it's place(especially in dangerous, emergency type situations), but a rather small, generally inefficient one compared to other methods of behaviour modification, and I think it's vital to understand the principles behind it, and behind the behaviours our animals exhibit, so that we can make the best judgements about when/where/why to use punishment & when it's best avoided.


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