# Point of Parelli Freestyle???



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Honestly just curious... 

What does it teach the horse???

How many of you agree with doing that type of riding before more refined stuff???

Freestyle is basically riding in a halter, no rein contact, and level 1 you start with just the halter/reins with casual rein, level 2 its riding with 1 carrot stick still casual reins, then level 3 is two carrot sticks and not using reins.. level 4 is bridleless. Ermmm Spirithorse can explain it better LOL


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

idk but I don't like parelli.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

There is no substitute for good training. To me this is not good training. 

Riding freestyle or bridleless is not something you train. It is the end result of good solid training.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

nrh - I was JUST thinking about what you said before I read your post. My goal is to be able to ride most of the horses I train bridleless in teh end and I know theres other ways of acheiving it.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Yes I can explain this LOL! The reason for Freestyle riding is to 1) give the horse an opportunity to express himself in a very free kinda way, 2) teach the rider to use FOCUS, 3) teach the rider to have an independent seat and not reply on their reins/hands/legs, 4) to build confidence and impulsion in the horse, 5) to teach the rider to stay out of the horse's way, 6) to work toward the ultimate test of freestyle riding, bridleless!....I could go on.

It's important to ride Freestyle before Finesse so that, as Karen Rohlf says, "You ride Freestyle, inside the Finesse." Meaning all your movements and aides are so subtle, light and can be isolated independently that the only change is that you ask your horse to pick himself up and carry himself in a different posture....which increases the difficulty. And if you were to drop your reins in the middle of Finesse work, the horse would maintain gait, speed, direction, remain balanced and stay in emotional control and the rider would remain balanced, focused, and calm. Freestyle is SO important!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> Karen Rohlf says, "You ride Freestyle, inside the Finesse." Meaning all your movements and aides are so subtle, light and can be isolated independently that the only change is that you ask your horse to pick himself up and carry himself in a different posture....which increases the difficulty. And if you were to drop your reins in the middle of Finesse work, the horse would maintain gait, speed, direction, remain balanced and stay in emotional control and the rider would remain balanced, focused, and calm.


And that sounds like a horse that has been trained using normal training methods UNTIL it IS supple to the aids.

Just as a horse has no clue what to do with a bit put in it mouth or understand what rider leg contact is BEFORE it is taught by training the meaning, I think any sort of attempt at freestyle before finesse ( or in other words knowing the basics) is like putting the cart before the horse.

Only through improving the basics and adding a degree of difficulty does the horse become free enough to ride a good freestyle.

When I was competing, freestyle was my speciality and I got most of my 10's in that event. Full knowledge of what you are doing built on training,trust and the horse's ability to react to the slightest indicator results in"freestyle" within finesse and ride that is effortless.

I fail to see how any of that can be built riding aimlessly around in a halter is going to achieve that.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Hmmmm this gave me something to think about 


I understand what Spirithorse is saying but after reading what spyder said it deffinately made A LOT of sense. 

Keep it going  This is interesting.

I can say in defense the riding around in a halter usually has a purpose .. usually some pattern of sorts.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

If you can't get lateral and vertical flexion, in three gaits, doing all the appropriate yields, transitions, etc. in a halter first you should not put a bit in the horse's mouth. 

If the horse is ridden Freestyle BEFORE Finesse, Finesse becomes much easier...for horse and rider.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> If you can't get lateral and vertical flexion, in three gaits, doing all the appropriate yields, transitions, etc. in a halter first you should not put a bit in the horse's mouth.


Why?

What is a logical reason you CAN'T teach the above with a bit?


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I have to say something about the bit. 


Linda used a bit for Allure, he couldn't be ridden much in a halter in the begining because she could really get control over him. So technically thats not true. 

Im on both sides here.
I can see that getting all teh basic aids and stuff through CLEAR communication through the bit before dropping the reins. Like I was just PMing spyder. Usually it goes focus, seat/legs, reins if needed.. so If they cant get it even with the support of the reins. Its gonna be hard for the horse to understand it when you have absolutly no contact. Idk if im making since I have a thought process going but I cant seem to get it down.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> If you can't get lateral and vertical flexion, in three gaits, doing all the appropriate yields, transitions, etc. in a halter first you should not put a bit in the horse's mouth.
> 
> If the horse is ridden Freestyle BEFORE Finesse, Finesse becomes much easier...for horse and rider.


I have ridden worked trained and shown quite a few reiners and I find this thought to be very very short sighted. Finesse comes from working properly the bit properly used adds a very subtle cue that adds to the finesse that you can not get with just a halter.

If what you are saying was really true then what you get as an end result in a finished reiner would not exist as NO reining trainer I have ever seen would even think about working a horse in just a halter.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> If the horse is ridden Freestyle BEFORE Finesse, Finesse becomes much easier...for horse and rider.


Pure bovine manure

Rather that rewrite I am going to post what I said to HorsesAreForever...


_You cannot make a song without an understanding of the notes or combination of the notes.

Assuming you are going to do a freestyle to music and one part is very dramatic followed almost immediately by a soft portion. To do a dramatic movement to complement that first part and expect the horse to follow a cue from you to collect, or go to a softer movement after he has to be instantly on the aids to make it effortless.

If YOU are following that piece of music as you ride you do not want to make obvious or rough aids so you need the quietest aids that in time almost become second nature BECAUSE the bond between you and the horse was developed over time and with training. This is the finesse.

So you could argue it is finesse within freestyle as much as you can ague it is freestyle within finesse...they actually become one._


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Couldn't agree more Spyder. A horse is challenged to learn the finesse and then after they know what is expected of them, then you can relax them into the freestyle. And frankly, teaching finesse with a halter would be about like squeezing a horse in through at cat door. Halters are, by nature, unprecise. You will never find an upper level dressage horse or reining horse that has been ridden in only a halter.

That being said, you say


> "If you can't get lateral and vertical flexion, in three gaits, doing all the appropriate yields, transitions, etc. in a halter first you should not put a bit in the horse's mouth."


I say that it doesn't matter what you put _*on*_ a horse's head, it's what you put _*in *_their head that matters. You cannot achieve finesse without training and there is absolutely no training happening with a horse wandering around aimlessly in a pen with a passive rider.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

The closest that I come to "Parelli Freestyle" is riding an extreme greenie on a very loose rein to let him get his sea legs without worrying about bit pressure too much between turns, and warming up on a very loose rein for the first few minutes of a ride before taking up the slack and asking the horse to work a little more. Always with a bit. I probably could ride Scout in a halter, _maybe_ bridleless on a brave day after a solid warmup, but I've never tried it, and I know I couldn't have on my first ride on him and had any brakes at all. 

I see benefits galore for the rider to working without reins (independent seat, riding back end forward, not leaning on the reins, not fussing with the horse's head, etc.), and I see that it is helpful for greenies or out of shape horses to acclimate to the aids in steps at first. However, some of the most finessed riding and horses I've ever seen came by it as a by-product of "normal" training (whatever that is anymore). To me, starting out bridleless is like teaching the cool by-product without the months/years of education behind it. Maybe its a "Build it and they will come" kind of thing... :wink:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

smrobs said:


> there is absolutely no training happening with a horse wandering around aimlessly in a pen with a passive rider.


Ya that is what the neighbor girl learned when she tried riding my reiners. She could not cue them correctly and my one mare just stopped. Would not move. If she has been human she would have had her arms crossed just standing there.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

nrh - all I could see was a horse on its hind legs and crossing the front just like a human hahahaa


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> nrh - all I could see was a horse on its hind legs and crossing the front just like a human hahahaa


Well that is about what she did. Sara was riding and it lasted all of about 10 min the first time and then Cassie just stopped and refused to move. Like if you can find the right spot to cue me I will move until then I will just stand here.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Good horse. Good teacher really.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Good luck in getting Spyer do anything without an understanding of the seat and aids. I can however ride him bridleless if I chose for there has been many a time I cantered and simply dropped all contact....he just kept right on trucking.

On the thread about schoolmasters I posted, Kelly Horsemad posted she got a passage because she gave the wrong aids on the only schoolmaster she rode....lol...that was on my horse...LOL


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

****! I can see myself doing that! Accidently getting passage, or Piafe.. and thinking.. "okay...well, thats the button for that... now how do I get a simple canter!!" 

I accually rode a level 2/3 dressage horse, when I was thinking of selling chance a while back, and the normal canter cue for my mare was the half pass for this horse. I was like 'Why am I going sideway now?!' Or at some point I was getting haunches in im like oh my this is different. I couldn't seem to go in a straight line LOL Oh it was fun. After a few tries I got it but then the girl got on and made it look EFFORTLESS. I started working on my leg aids and such after that!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

HorsesAreForever said:


> the normal canter cue for my mare was the half pass for this horse. I was like 'Why am I going sideway now?!' !


 
I have pointed this out so many times.

Most dressage riders will NOT use the outside leg as a canter aid. The outside leg is a GUARD only should the quarters swing out ( rarely happens in a well trained horse).

Partly this is because the half pass aids are the outside leg back and I had to get one of my students to completely retrain their horse. The other reason is when doing tempi changes it takes too much time to move the outside leg back to get a lead change.

Get on Spyder and while cantering just tap the inside leg to get that lead then the outside leg to switch.....totally simple.

This is the FINESSE that we have been talking about and so easy for the rider to get lead changes, that when doing freestyle it looks like nothing is being asked from the horse.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Interesting. 

The horse im training - the owner wants her horse trained to canter by outside leg. Which Its her horse.. fine. My mare is trained with both actually - dont ask why, it just happened. But I got both of them to where you can barely see that im asking for the canter. Which I was proud of because people actually ask me if I asked for the canter - and I can proudly say yes lol

But I will keep that in mind when I start riding Chance again. With Little im still working on simple changes - bringing him back to a trot then asking for the other lead again. He gets so unbalenced so easy poor guy lol


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Thats how a lot of western riders ask for the canter. I get into a more forward seat and press the outside leg to cue that I want that hind leg behind, in essence, cueing for the lead on the other side. Like I press with my left leg to cue for a right lead and vice versa.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

This is totally off topic, but I'm SO glad you guys started talking about canter leads! I had no idea that some people cued from the inside and that is making me wonder if maybe Lacey was trained like that since she consistently picks "the wrong" lead when I cue her from the outside... Very interesting! 
Thanks! =)


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I'm not gonna argue with people who are simply wanting to argue back. HAF got the answers and responses she was looking for and wanting, so I'm done.

And as for Allure, he is an extreme case....I was talking about your every day "normal" horses. Yes Linda did ride him in a bit, but now that they have more respect and understanding she rides him in a halter a lot as well....working on Freestyle


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Oh well I dont think ive seen her ride allure in a halter lately. I also havent been looking out for it so who knows.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The point is that she could not do it with out the bit. She started there and then moved in to the halter.

You can not gain a high level of fineness with just a halter. There is not enough control to be precise enough to get that. If you look at the bits that are used on reiners and reined cow horses which are very close to what you would get with a bridleless ride as they are ridden on a loose rein and most of the cues come from the seat and legs. This is why it is very easy to drop the bridle on a reiner. Anyway. Take a good look at those bit. Most are high ported broken bits. WHY? B/C they give you the most control to get the fineness you need with the littlest movement of the hand. This is where fineness comes from. You can not get that from a halter.

Also if you are just talking about an every day horse. Why should that matter?? I would expect the same response and fineness from a trail horse as I would from my reiners. Actually even more. When I go for a trail ride I want to relax and have a nice ride. I do not what to have to keep cuing my horse.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

You can't get a high level of Finesse in a halter? lol you should watch some videos of Karen Rohlf riding in a halter


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

There is a difference between riding in a halter and TRAINING in a halter. I can get all the fineness I want in a halter or even with nothing at all with my finished reining horses. However they did not get there in a halter. They got there in a bit.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> There is a difference between riding in a halter and TRAINING in a halter. I can get all the fineness I want in a halter or even with nothing at all with my finished reining horses. However they did not get there in a halter. They got there in a bit.



I bring this up only to stimulate the conversation a little and mostly agree with you nrha.

Horses are trained with a Bosal and attain a high level of finesse in reining and reined cow horse events.
Many use bits to train and some don't and stick to the old ways.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

A bosal is used in ONE step of the training process. There are several bits in there too.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I am fairly ignorant when it comes to Parelli training. However, I would never poo poo it just because it is different from my approach. I see so much "Parelli bashing" here.I will tell you of a marvelous experience I had recently. It may not fully fit this topic, but it is close. I does refer to horses who were more "finished".

A friend of mine who does teach NH clinics did a demo, recently, that blew me away.

She is a GP dressage trainer/rider who has been doing NH for about five years. She did a at-liberty demo with two of her horses that was beyond interesting.

First, one of her horses was a certifiable rogue and destined to be put down. A huge warmblood. She took him and under her training he became an upper level dressage horse. his obvious trust in her is amazing.

She took him, and her GP horse and performed with them at liberty. Side by side, with no contact of any kind, they did a type of freestyle. When she trotted, they trotted. When she piaffed, they piaffed (in perfect competition worthy frame). When she would half pass, they would half pass at her side. They performed at walk, trot, and canter. I could not believe the communication and unbelievable trust these horses and trainer had in each other. I have to tell you i was very envious. 

I use much of the predator/prey understanding in my training approaches and it has helped me develop a good reputation in my retraining of known damaged horses.

To say there is no value in this training? I will simply have to disagree with you.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> A bosal is used in ONE step of the training process. There are several bits in there too.


 
I've known some horses that were started, trained, and shown on only a bosal.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> I've known some horses that were started, trained, and shown on only a bosal.


It does happen but the people that do it are very good horsemen that have a deep understanding of how the bosal works. Most of the time people try it they end up with a horse that has a skinned up nose and a skinned up jaw, inverted neck and back and a poor stop. I did this once myself which is what prompted me to learn the correct way to do it. Even now I use a bosal only on horses that I am planning on having for a long time and it is only one step toward a finished horse.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> A bosal is used in ONE step of the training process. There are several bits in there too.



Kevin,
I agree with you most all of the time and deeply respect your way with horses ,But I will refer you to to Bobby Ingersoll's book "The Legendary California Hackamore& StockHorse".

There were and still are many horses that might not even see a snaffle bit until they are about 5 or six years old.
A lot of the old timers would start them in a hack and leave them there.
I have done it this way a half dozen times and have no problem teaching half pass two track,stop and spin with doubling.

After all .....it's all and out the legs and seat anyway.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Marecare said:


> I bring this up only to stimulate the conversation a little and mostly agree with you nrha.
> 
> Horses are trained with a Bosal and attain a high level of finesse in reining and reined cow horse events.
> Many use bits to train and some don't and stick to the old ways.


If you have ever trained or shown with a Bosal you will see and know that at that point there is very little refinement. They are ridden 2 handed and their is constant contact with the reins to the horse. Also the Bosal is a stiffer type training aid.

Also a lot of the time when you are going from one to the other there is a bit in the mix normally working with the Bosal.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> *There is a difference between riding in a halter and TRAINING in a halter.* I can get all the fineness I want in a halter or even with nothing at all with my finished reining horses. However they did not get there in a halter. They got there in a bit.


I was reading through the thread waiting on someone to say that.  Can't agree more.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> I am fairly ignorant when it comes to Parelli training. However, I would never poo poo it just because it is different from my approach. I see so much "Parelli bashing" here.I will tell you of a marvelous experience I had recently. It may not fully fit this topic, but it is close. I does refer to horses who were more "finished".
> 
> A friend of mine who does teach NH clinics did a demo, recently, that blew me away.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that no one is against NH. It is has more to do with Parelli and his ways and advertising then anything. You do not need a $50 stick and the thought that a rope halter is a good replacement for good training with a bit. It is more what he has become vs. NH.

I have nothing against NH. I use it all the time. However I do not look at PP as NH. I look at him as a good salesman of used cars.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> First, one of her horses was a certifiable rogue and destined to be put down. A huge warmblood. She took him and under her training he became an upper level dressage horse. his obvious trust in her is amazing.
> 
> She took him, and her GP horse and performed with them at liberty. Side by side, with no contact of any kind, they did a type of freestyle. When she trotted, they trotted. When she piaffed, they piaffed (in perfect competition worthy frame). When she would half pass, they would half pass at her side. They performed at walk, trot, and canter. I could not believe the communication and unbelievable trust these horses and trainer had in each other. I have to tell you i was very envious.
> 
> .


All very nice they did liberty BUT they got the training FIRST. Would have been nice to have seen this rogue trained to upper level dressage in a halter...or was he.

If he wasn't ( and probably wasn't) then you just gave an example of training (basics to finesse) to create an at libery horse. 

This is no different than trying to create a song without an understanding of the notes and music scale.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

It basic training is a foundation. Like the foundation of a building. If it is not strong the building might stand for years. However the first thing that shakes the building it falls and people get hurt. Horses are no different. A good foundation is the cornerstone of a good solid well trained horses that you can do anything with.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Who said anything about not using bits? We DO use bits but ONLY after the horse has a very good understanding and knowledge or all our yields and all flexion. If the horse won't 'give' to a halter willingly he won't 'give' to a bit willingly, or as well as he could.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> If the horse won't 'give' to a halter willingly he won't 'give' to a bit willingly, or as well as he could.


Why? Can you explain that?


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> Who said anything about not using bits? We DO use bits but ONLY after the horse has a very good understanding and knowledge or all our yields and all flexion. If the horse won't 'give' to a halter willingly he won't 'give' to a bit willingly, or as well as he could.


A halter is a very poor training tool simply because it moves on the head. This means that pressure is uneven and inconsistent, thus making it significantly more difficult for the horse to interpret and thus learn what the aids are.

Unless of course we are talking about one of those tight rope halter thingy majigs, which makes it not a whole lot different than a longeing cavesson...though you'd never see a SRS rider ever training (or riding for that matter) in a longeing cavesson because it's not designed for training in that way, the same way a halter is not designed for training in in that way.

That doesn't mean it couldn't be done that way, but frankly, what's the point?


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> If the horse won't 'give' to a halter willingly he won't 'give' to a bit willingly, or as well as he could.


What?

What kind of 'give' to a halter are you talking about? Like leading the horse? Or are you talking strictly riding?

Are you talking simply pressure and release?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Spirithorse said:


> If the horse won't 'give' to a halter willingly he won't 'give' to a bit willingly, or as well as he could.


Again I call B/S on this. I have ridden, worked, shown and trained too many horses over the years. I have horses who have only been trained in a bit. They will give to the slightest movement of the reins. You do not even have to make contact with the bit/reins. WHY?? B/C they have been trained correctly they understand what is being asked and do so willingly. The cues are very precise and I still say that in the beginning you can not get that precision with a halter. A halter is not designed to be a training tool under saddle. It is designed to lead and tie a horse with. A bit and bridle are designed to train a horse under saddle and help communicate what you expect from the horse. They are a refinement tool along with your leg and seat.


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## HannahNaturally (Aug 12, 2009)

I Trained Mr. Blaze in a halter, everything he can do in in finesse/Dressage I taught in a halter ..heck I taught everything in a halter first. because most people and YES even ME had hard hands, now Pat Parelli is a Professional and so is Linda Parelli, they have light hands and years of Experience...oh, when I say Light hands, I mean that they are light on the horses mouth and don't pull (just so everyone knows  ) anyways. so, all their horses are in good hands if they teach first with a bit. I think one of the whole points starting out with a halter is that they are teaching the PEOPLE to have lighter hands, and with a halter doesn't matter how hard you pull, it won't hurt the horses mouth, unlike a bit. I also think it is to teach the horse to be first light in a halter...think about it, if you can get a horse to be soft and collected in a halter imagen how soft they will be with the bit. 

also I have a Good Friend named Mirka, who teaches Reining horses and has worked with Honza Blaha and tons of Professionals. she starts her horses in a Halter and then once they are good in a Halter she teaches them with a Bit. and they are very light in a Bit first off.


But anyways, If you are a Professional I see nothing wrong with teaching in a bit first. if it's your horse you can do whatever you want. I just chose to start in a halter.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Lol Hannah you already know how jelous I am of you and Mr. Blazeyyy man. But those are some really good points.


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## HannahNaturally (Aug 12, 2009)

Haha Michele, You will get there! In time. it takes allot of time took me 5 years O.O I hope it is shorter for you. I made allot of mistakes so it was longer then it probably should have been.

and Thank you!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

HannahNaturally said:


> I Trained Mr. Blaze in a halter, everything he can do in in finesse/Dressage I taught in a halter


The internet is a wonderful thing. Anyone can say anything.

Until I see a video or at least a picture of you at 3/4th level dressage in a halter doing dressage ( I mean real dressage, non of the fake stuff) that would get at least a 60 % score then it is just you saying you can.

And please don't ask me to look at your blog as it freezes my computer.


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## HannahNaturally (Aug 12, 2009)

lol I am Not asking you to look at my Blog?

Me and Blaze are still learning Dressage, of course we are Not level 3/4 in Dressage YET. But, I know I have taught Blaze in a halter, things such as haunches-In (at the walk still playing with it in other gaits) side passes, simple lead changes, (we actually got a flyig lead change yesterday yay!) shoulder IN....There is one ofther move he can do but I can't remember what it is called haha.....anyways I have nothing to Lie about, and Honestly I have nothing to prove to you, Because My parents know I teach in a halter, my friends know I teach in a halter...and allot of stuff I teach on the ground first, such as haunches-in (Thanks to the help of my Friend Frances.) ...and allot of my friends teach in a halter (Tho, not all of them are teaching Dressage.) 
so if you Don't believe me then you don't, with all do respect, that is really none of my concern.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Hannah is right inasmuch as Parelli's techniques are geared more for the rider's benefits. He can teach horses just fine; but people--- arrgh! We never get it right:shock:. He seems to have lots of gimmicky techniques, but amazing how some affect some people, some others. I've also been wondering about freestyle. I think its strength is to remind oneself who and what your horse is, what the Nature is, from which you want to form your Art. I do see, around here, some dressage riders sort of micro-manage their horses. They're the more competitive riders, and oftentimes, they cramp their horses.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Spyder said:


> The internet is a wonderful thing. Anyone can say anything.
> 
> Until I see a video or at least a picture of you at 3/4th level dressage in a halter doing dressage ( I mean real dressage, non of the fake stuff) that would get at least a 60 % score then it is just you saying you can.
> 
> And please don't ask me to look at your blog as it freezes my computer.


I could not agree more. The internet is a nice thing, but you SHOULD look into the people you get advice from before following through with the said advice. 

That being said; Spyder, this is from her blog, I enjoyed reading it for the past few hours.

_"Hello. My name is Hannah Willis. I'm 15 years old. Ido Parelli. I am an Official Level 3 Graduate. and Official Level 4 + Liberty pass. I have been doing Parelli for almost 5 years My goal is to become a parelli professonal. so I can teach others. and were they can get to were me and Blaze are. I LOVE teaching. and watching people learn new things! it's my dream! but if it doens't happen I know god has somthing even better instore for me! "_

This is her youtube account: YouTube - byhispirit's Channel

I do enjoy my internet!
ps. I'm not against good horsemanship or NH whatever you want to call it. I would MUCH rather use my rope halter than a chain over my horses nose... but if my horse pinned its ears at me like Blaze my horse and I would be having a serious talk.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

So, now we are reduced to making fun of a 15 year old because of her enthusiasm? 

I train using methods that are pretty universally accepted AND they work for me. Do I think they are the only methods to use for everyone and everywhere. Nope.

I don't use much NH but mostly because I am not familiar with their techniques. I have seen some amazing demos that makes me realize that there is something special that could be learned about rider/horse communication, though. Do I think I can learn a lot from it? Absolutely. Any one of us who thinks there is no more for them to learn about horses....well,.....

Spyder, I don't think a person being able to ride 3/4th level dressage is a very reasonable guide to use in judging people. Many excellent reiners, cutting horse trainers, jumpers, etc etc etc don't ride 3/4th level dressage, But they are experts at their discipline.

The Parellis are very commercial in their approach to training. But, that doesn't mean they have nothing of value to offer, IMO.

Folks, if you don't like NH, fine. But let's allow that there is a lot of knowledge out there that we just may not be familiar with.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> So, now we are reduced to making fun of a 15 year old because of her enthusiasm?


I am making fun of no one. I myself have a stick and sting and love my expensive rope halter (they are Clinton Anderson, I like the extra knots and longer rope. :lol 
The barn I am at now is SOOO fantastic but they seem to have the opinion that a chain over or under the nose is the fix to everything... I'm SOOO against using chains anywhere, but I won't get into that...

I said I enjoyed her blog, I love reading blogs, its my excuse not to work on my college papers! That was her intro to her blog, So what? Its there for everyone to see. (well those who's computers don't freeze) I think she sounds very smart and is most likely higher skilled than many adults... (just not yet to the level of Spyder :lol: ) but shes trying. 

You should _never _criticize people who seek professional help and those who are trying... thats my opinion.

I commented on her horse not to be mean I was just saying if my horse did that I would be having a total cow. lol becuase it is true, I would be.
BUT she is a fine example to people's opinions on what is important and what is not. I HATE a horse who is constantly pinning it's ears when it is asked to work. 99% of the time it is not becuase the horse is focused or working hard (like a cutting horse would be). That is like employees who post on facebook that they hate their job everyday, forgetting that they freinded their boss last year. 
I, personally, would rather have a respectful horse than ride bridleless but that is just MY OPINION.

I in no way made fun of her or picked on her. Her blog link is RIGHT there for anyone to click on.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

I don't see anyone making fun of a 15 yr old. 

I've viewed the video and frankly I cringe at the rearing clips. Standing in front of a horse, raising your arms up with a whip/stick/carrot in your hand is a way to get your face rearranged and I can't believe, 1) that it's part of a 'responsible' training program, 2) being taught like that. 

It's akin to two stallions posturing and getting ready to duke it out for possession of the herd and the horse in the video reflects this with an equally aggressive posture back. It's only his inherent generosity (and lack of body parts) that keeps him from carrying it further.

I can't ever remember seeing a SRS Master standing in front of a Lipizzaner stallion to perform The Airs, ever. 

And lastly, I'm not seeing this video as an example of Finesse/Dressage. There's nothing dressage about it in terms of the classic definition, and the aids being given are quite visible and often times loud...so where's the finesse? Perhaps this video isn't an example of what the poster was claiming in her original post? In which case, I'd be interested in seeing what she's defining as finesse/dressage.

In another 10-15 yrs, I'm convinced this young woman will look back at these teenage years and shake her head at some of the things she's done. But I give her props for at least seeking out a mentor, even if that mentor isn't perhaps the best one to have.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Mercedes said:


> In another 10-15 yrs, I'm convinced this young woman will look back at these teenage years and shake her head at some of the things she's done. But I give her props for at least seeking out a mentor, even if that mentor isn't perhaps the best one to have.


Sadly, I can think of countless times I myself have done this also... when I was young perhaps my mentors where not as great as I thought at the time. 
Later with education and allowing myself to see "outside" of their ways I saw there was a better, different way. Not all I learned was wrong, I learned many good things too, but I believe you cannot possibly learn everything from one person.

My advice: NEVER worship anyone. Allow yourself to see what everyone has to offer, not just one person. Study many methods. There is no one way, you can combined methods without any negative effects. :wink:


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Spyder, I don't think a person being able to ride 3/4th level dressage is a very reasonable guide to use in judging people. Many excellent reiners, cutting horse trainers, jumpers, etc etc etc don't ride 3/4th level dressage, But they are experts at their discipline.


Sorry but if you CLAIM to have trained a horse to a finesse level in dressage that pretty much shows that at those levels.

I agree with Mercedes and the video shows someone doing circus tricks and in no way shape or form can be called dressage. I see a girl making attemps in "having fun" with her horse but unguided as she is in real training (not parelli) she will never get past "attempts" at dressage.


So Hannah...have fun but don't call it something it isn't.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Cirrcus tricks was the exact term I was going to use but real life intervened and prevented my from posting. It looked like a nice, well broke horse that has learned some circus tricks. I didn't see much in the riding that I thought was all that great. I would rather see someone ride in a bridle and have little contact than see someone have to pull hard on a rope halter. When I was young I rode alot in a halter bareback and I had a few runaways and a few spills but one thing I didn't get was any refinement or softness. Ihad to get that in a bridle so I could ride in a halter. I can't help but think that is the proper way to do it.


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## HannahNaturally (Aug 12, 2009)

Firstly people....WHEN DID I CALL THAT DRESSAGE???!!! WHEN!! SHOW ME!! I never ONCE called it dressage so some of ya'll are making yourself look bad because I didn't even post the link to the video...someone else did, I never called it dressage because It isn't dressage. Blaze can do many things, I always stand infront of him and ask him to rear, he is very respectful. he pins his ears when I play the cutting game with him and ask him to rear, that does not make him disrespectful, almost every horse I've ever seen rear or do cutting game puts their ears back. Blaze has never attempted to hurt me when he rears and never has charged at me, he is my Bud! he respects me and I respect him. (by the way I was a few feet from him when he did rear.) Blaze is an awesome horse who has taught me so much. and I love him 

As you said Spyder I was HAVING FUN with my horse, so stop saying I'm calling it dressage when I'm not. I put videos up of Blaze showing us Having fun so there you have it.

as I said, I am LEARNING Dressage, I am in no way a Professional in Dressage as you spyder, I am not level 3 or 4 in Dressage. right now I am just learning how to teach side passes at the trot and canter and learning to teach haunches-In at the trot, which is quite difficult by the way haha. I am not being taught by a professional I am just learning off DVDs and videos and Parelli and videos on youtube. like I said I will never compete in Dressage because I just am learning it for fun, and to teach me to have a better seat and teach Blaze to be balanced and I love watching it.

Oh and Blaze is not a stallion.






FlyinSoLow said:


> My advice: NEVER worship anyone. Allow yourself to see what everyone has to offer, not just one person. Study many methods. There is no one way, you can combined methods without any negative effects. :wink:


 
and I completely agree. I don't just do parelli Myself, I also am saveing for Walter Zettl's dvds and Karen Rohfl's Book/dvds and I want to Learn from Honza Blaha.


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## HannahNaturally (Aug 12, 2009)

and yeah, I don't see people making fun of a 15 year old. I see allot of ADULTS lying saying a 15 year old said something that they didn't. now that is just sad and amusing at the same time.

well I'm done here on this post. I have better things to do then agrue with people.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

HannahNaturally said:


> Firstly people....WHEN DID I CALL THAT DRESSAGE???!!! WHEN!! SHOW ME!!


 
Here....




HannahNaturally said:


> I Trained Mr. Blaze in a halter, everything he can do in in finesse/Dressage I taught in a halter ..


 
Now as far as your rant over people making fun of you because of your age....look back at the posts. I never knew what your age was when I called you out nor do I care.

15 year old or 40 year old I will call anyone on making claims that just aren't so.


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## HannahNaturally (Aug 12, 2009)

I said I TAUGHT BLAZE I never said "here is the link to my video with me doing dressage" so You lied. ya'll made up on your own that I called the video Dressage. and like I said no one is making fun of me. people are lying about what I said.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Okay, everybody. I think it is time that we get back on topic of the OP, even though it managed to get way out there pretty quickly.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

HannahNaturally said:


> I Trained Mr. Blaze in a halter, everything he can do in in finesse/Dressage I taught in a halter ..heck I taught everything in a halter first.


Here you are stating everything he can do with Finesse/Dressage he was taught in a halter.

The problem is while I commend you one what you have done with your horse. I see no finesse at all. What I see is a horse who dose not give to the halter who is stiff and hollowed in the back and his heavy on the fount end and dumping in the stop.


In the end you have a nice horse. However it is a nice horse who dose tricks and you enjoy. Which is great. It is not at all a horse who is light responsive and collected with any level of finesse.

Continue working and enjoying your horse and keep learning. You have a lot of time as long as you KNOW that you are not there yet.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

HannahNaturally said:


> I said I TAUGHT BLAZE I never said "here is the link to my video with me doing dressage" so You lied. ya'll made up on your own that I called the video Dressage. and like I said no one is making fun of me. people are lying about what I said.


I in fact said this: *Perhaps this video isn't an example of what the poster was claiming in her original post?* *In which case, I'd be interested in seeing what she's defining as finesse/dressage.*

Be careful before you start flinging around the words 'lying, lied, liar'.


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## HannahNaturally (Aug 12, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> I see no finesse at all. What I see is a horse who dose not give to the halter
> 
> .


 

looks like he is giving to the halter there. we were cantering around having fun. (my friend edited it) and if you look at the lead rope I barely have any contact on his head.


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## HannahNaturally (Aug 12, 2009)

Mercedes. Yes You didn't lie. but others did.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

HannahNaturally said:


> looks like he is giving to the halter there. we were cantering around having fun. (my friend edited it) and if you look at the lead rope I barely have any contact on his head.


 
And herein lays the fault in your reasoning.

Dressage/finesse is not about just a headset.

To focus on this part only will result in failure.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

HannahNaturally said:


> looks like he is giving to the halter there. we were cantering around having fun. (my friend edited it) and if you look at the lead rope I barely have any contact on his head.


Actually, in truth, this picture shows a horse evading contact and behind the aids. I can tell that he's dropped his base of neck and has simply tucked his chin. He's not through, he's not round, and is not demonstrating finesse or dressage.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

HannahNaturally said:


> Mercedes. Yes You didn't lie. but others did.


 
As Mercedes stated, be careful how you fling that accusation around as I saw none from anyone.

When you mature you will realize this.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)




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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

HannahNaturally said:


> looks like he is giving to the halter there. we were cantering around having fun. (my friend edited it) and if you look at the lead rope I barely have any contact on his head.


Again I do not see finesse I do not see a horse with a correct frame. I see a horse who is like other have said is behind the bit/halter. I do not see a horse that is lifting its shoulder and rounding and moving up into the bit/halter.


There is so much that goes into the finesse I am talking about it is not about a single instant in a snapshot. It is about the whole picture and being able to keep it going for more then a stride or 2.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

hahaha I see this on so many threads:

If I CAPITALIZE certain WORDS will it make my ARGUMENT BETTER?



The answer is no.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


>


Oh yes, a BIG can of worms and me and my partner in crime, Mercedes are good at opening them.......


Actually she is better.......... I am just the scorekeeper.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

How did this go from freestyle to finesse?? Well nvm I can kinda see how LOL 

But can we get back to freestyle!  Hmm???


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Spyder said:


> Oh yes, a BIG can of worms and me and my partner in crime, Mercedes are good at opening them.......
> 
> Actually she is better.......... I am just the scorekeeper.


I've never seen a can-o-worms I didn't like. I've also never seen a bag of popcorn I didn't like...such a shame we have none here.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> I've never seen a can-o-worms I didn't like. I've also never seen a bag of popcorn I didn't like...such a shame we have none here.



We did it is just that they where finished a few pages ago.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, back to the original post

I really don't see any reason that the freestyle is pointless OR worthless. I think anything that can assist in the horse and rider developing better communication has merit. Does it have to be an untrained horse? As I said, I know a person who has introduced this stuff to her horses, some at the GP dressage level. She certainly sees merit in it as part of her training.

So, as an only method of training or as a supplemental method......I think I would try it if I knew what I was doing (which, unfortunately I do not).

i would never try to train a method without proper guidance. Certainly not just from books and DVD's alone (clearing throat). Without the ability to ask questions clarifying any uncertainties, You just don't know if you are doing more harm than good, IMO.

Hannah, are there any dressage trainers in your area you can use? Sometimes they will allow you to shadow them in their teaching to learn from other peoples lessons. I will take struggling kids under my wing, on occasion. If you can't afford lessons, maybe you can trade labor, and become a working student. Anyway, interpreting from books/DVD's can be really dicey if you are not familiar with all the little nuances of that style of training/riding. You are a gifted kid and worthy of progressing your knowledge. Just remember, there are times to expound....and there are always times to listen.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Yes, back to the original post
> 
> I really don't see any reason that the freestyle is pointless OR worthless. I think anything that can assist in the horse and rider developing better communication has merit. Does it have to be an untrained horse? As I said, I know a person who has introduced this stuff to her horses, some at the GP dressage level. She certainly sees merit in it as part of her training.



*It dose have marret with a trained horse. What it dose is teach the rider or at least help the rider to stay out of the horses way. The horse knows its job and a lot of times the rider gets in the way of the horse doing its job. I drop reins quite often on my finished horses for just this reason. Keeps me using my legs and seat properly. **It is not about training the horse it is about working with an already trained one.
*


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## SavvyGal (Feb 24, 2010)

I see a Horse who was collecting naturally, just as Honza Blaha teaches. his horses will collect their whole body without any bit/halter etc. Blaze was very round and collected and was giving.


Hannah, You know their is no sense with agrueing with people who are Jealous of your talent. People only wish they had the relationship with their horses like you have with Blaze. You are amazing and a Inspiration to all. 

Remember when you sent that picture to Karen Rohlf saying thank you for the program she has? and she was amazed at how great Blaze looked.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

SavvyGal said:


> Hannah, You know their is no sense with agrueing with *people who are Jealous of your talent*. People only wish they had the relationship with their horses like you have with Blaze. You are amazing and a Inspiration to all.


:mrgreen: 

Especially true for the _*accomplished *_trainers on this forum!... :shock: :lol:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

SavvyGal said:


> I see a Horse who was collecting naturally, just as Honza Blaha teaches. his horses will collect their whole body without any bit/halter etc. Blaze was very round and collected and was giving.
> 
> 
> Hannah, You know their is no sense with agrueing with people who are Jealous of your talent. People only wish they had the relationship with their horses like you have with Blaze. You are amazing and a Inspiration to all.
> ...


I am not sure where you get that the horse in the video is rounded and collected?? As he is not. If he was when she asked him to stop he would not have dumped on his front end.

As for jealous. Not sure where you get that. I did not see anything in any of the pictures or videos that I wanted to emulate. 

I agree she has a good relationship with her horse and looks like she is having fun playing around. Past that I see nothing that looks like training past doing tricks.


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

Am I the only one that seems suspicious of someone that just joined and only made one post to "help" a loosing argument?

Anyways, I see freestyle as sort of a test on how well your horse is trained and how you work together. You most certainly cant get there without training and the appropriate tools.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> Am I the only one that seems suspicious of someone that just joined and only made one post to "help" a loosing argument?


 
Nope, you're not the only one. As soon as I can get my BFF's to get accounts I'm sure they will agree!!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> Am I the only one that seems suspicious of someone that just joined and only made one post to "help" a loosing argument?
> 
> Anyways, I see freestyle as sort of a test on how well your horse is trained and how you work together. You most certainly cant get there without training and the appropriate tools.



It is being handled.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> Am I the only one that seems suspicious of someone that just joined and only made one post to "help" a loosing argument?
> 
> .


 
I thought the same thing.

The term "alter" comes to mind and if it is proven, the admin has chosen to ban such IDs.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> :mrgreen:
> 
> Especially true for the _*accomplished *_trainers on this forum!... :shock: :lol:


 
If you are referring to either Mercedes or myself....hardly.

I see no talent to get jealous of. Now Cindy Ishoy...hmmmm not really there either as we know each other well. 

Probably the only one I am jealous of is JeanPaul Pare who IS AN ACCOMPLISHED trainer.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spyder said:


> If you are referring to either Mercedes or myself....hardly.


Well... I was somewhat sarcastic here and meant number of people.  You, Anabel, nrhareiner, Kevin, RD just to name some. Saying "people jealous that's why they say so" is a very poor (not to say offensive) argument in discussion. :wink:


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Uhg. Can't wait until my horse is recovered fully so I can video what Freestyle is really about....and what CAN be accomplished with just a halter


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I know ive been waiting forever missy!!!! llol


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

LOL I knooooow! I swear I'll get it up sometime....his injury put a damper on my plans lol but he's doing very well so I'm not complaining


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Oh, that would be wonderful to see a freestyle in action!! Please, give us a taste.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

lol I will as soon as my guy is able to be ridden again  I'm starting walking work with him right now on the ground...maybe if he's good enough I'll sit on him bareback and not go anywhere, just to be on him again! lol.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thats what I did with Chance a few days ago. Just sat on her. I miss riding her so much. Im happy Arie is doing better


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