# Bits Vs Bitless



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Not all evidence requires a science experiment. For example, an experiment was done to see how much weight a horse can carry without pain. They came up with the answer of 20% of the horse's weight. Yet if I showed you an emaciated horse, you would know without thinking that the horse wasn't ready to carry 5% of its weight. And a lot of big guys have ridden horses at 30% for years without harming the horse, so why is a study needed? There are a huge number of variables involved and no scientific study can reduce those variables down to one.

There are a lot of horses who have been ridden with bits for decades without any problems. If someone did a study and concluded bits are always harmful - see Dr Cook - then most of us would reject it. The horses I've owned are ample evidence that horses can be ridden in bits and not harmed by them nor resent them.

Lots of people who use bits regularly also use bitless regularly. Within the last two weeks, I've ridden the same horse in a rope sidepull and the dreaded, awful Tom Thumb Curb Bit - and he did fine in both, for what we were doing. And most of the time I ride him in a single joint O-ring, which is very different from the TT and rope sidepull.

I don't compete in dressage, but I figure anyone who wants to compete in dressage bitless is welcome to start a Bitless Dressage Society and hold competitions - kind of like what Western Dressage has done. If enough people are interested, it will become a sport. I suspect, however, you would see a lot of horses trained in a bit and then ridden bitless in the competition, which would defeat the purpose...wouldn't it?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't encounter a lot of debate on bitless verses bitted. I guess each person's experience of "the horse world' varies a lot , depending on where they live.

I would love to see bitless allowed. sadly, it's doubtful they would be competitive. the judges favor certain head positions that are hard to achieve without a bit. not saying it's correct, but it's the current preference in competition.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

This rider-horse team looks pretty good doing it but, I would imagine it was a ton of work!






Maybe someday they will have a special class for it...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think there have been many posts, topics, info available, on this subject, just like barefoot versus shod, and it comes down to correct application of either, making your choice on the hrose, your own comfort level, ability, ect, and not being a 'Nazi', either way
For instance, all bittless is not the same, any more then all bits. Some bittless devises, have the potential of being way more severe then a bit, esp in the wrong hands, same as abit.
Thus, before you even entertain this subject, are you talking of a snaffle versus a bosal or direct bittless devise, or lumping mechanical hackamores into the same class as direct action bittless devises?
Then, there is the education of both the horse and the rider.
A horse, ridden correctly, trained correctly, using bits, by a perosn with feel , is going to achieve a higher degree of finesse and communication, then riding bitlless
On the other hand, a horse not highly trained, esp ridden by a novice, is going to have less potencial damage, ridden bittless
Western, where a finished horse,esp, is used to be rewarded, when he is going correctly, by a loose rein,,just packing that bit, is much happier, and does not like the fact that most bittless devises, esp those cross under jobs, never give that clear release
Can't really comment on dressage, where a horse is always ridden on contact, but certainly western, trained correctly, you do not depend on that head set due to bit contact, as a well trained hrose maintains that form on a loose rein
Bittless, western, is also considered a 'elementary training stage, and by the time a horse is 5, he is expected to have the education to be ridden one handed, and on a loose rein, and a curb bit is designed for that, so he 'graduates form that bittless or snaffle stage, but can go back to it ant time, as that 'graduation' is based on education, correctly, and never on control.
I don't know if dressage has a similar ideology , based on horses needing to be shown in a bit, as the horse is always ridden with some contact, and two handed


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I like that video Reining posted, of that dressage horse, doing flying changes, without that head held in tight contact-compares to a western riding horse doing flying changes on a loose rein, even if the horse is not expected to keep 'classic frame.

Here is a horse doing extreme trail brildeless. The main point being, these demos are often the end result of a horse first being trained with 'tradition equipment, versus having been trained that way from day one
When that horse is taught., through using bits, legs and seat correctly, one can then drop that bridle and ride that hrose off of those remaining aids
It is NOT the end result of having trained that horse, using only a neck rope!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

of course, we have here one of the prime examples, of how traditional training, makes this demo possible. Not even a neck rope, so beyond 'bittless


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In this one, Stacy has a sAddle, but , again, nothing on the head, which shows it is not want is on e the head, but the conditioned response, that allows you to drop that bridle, and ride off of seat and legs, and has nothing to do with what can be achieved, bittless, alone
This shows what can be achieved, not just riding with the same cadence, in a straight line doing flying changes, but circles, change in speed, spins, sliding stops, and with nothing on the head. 
I know darn well that Stacy trains with traditional equipement, and shows that way, in regular reining classes


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## danielbenham (Dec 10, 2016)

You guys are awesome. I have been shot down trying to have similar conversations before and you guys have very eloquently put your points of view across in a way that has been enlightening.
I am and have used both and completely agree it is all in the understanding of the rider or trainer, it all comes back to learning theory and the application of light aids and consistent timing.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

danielbenham said:


> As someone who is passionate about ethical equitation I am amazed at the lack of robust scientific evidence available to support both sides of the bit Vs bitless debate that is rife amongst the horsey folks. Do you think more research is needed? and if sufficient evidence for better welfare was given do you think the big competition associations (FEI) should adapt the rules so that bitless was allowed in Dressage?


I do think more scientific studies would be great! I'm not at all amazed that good studies are rare though, be that on bits or otherwise(could say the same about the lack of 'good science' on both sides re shoes), because it costs money and is not in most people's interest - particularly the makers of bits! If there were more 'evidence' that may well help sway some authorities, but changes there are far more down to popular opinion - power of the people, than hard science. Personally, the only reason I can think of to ban bitless in dressage comps is because those who use bits are frightened of being shown up by those who don't. ;-)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh Smilie! That Extreme Trail looks like my kind of competition!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

danielbenham said:


> You guys are awesome. I have been shot down trying to have similar conversations before and you guys have very eloquently put your points of view across in a way that has been enlightening.
> I am and have used both and completely agree it is all in the understanding of the rider or trainer, it all comes back to learning theory and the application of light aids and consistent timing.


It has been an interesting subject to me. I can see no logical reason to not allow bitless in dressage. Either the horse can score well or they can't. I can think of some illogical (to me) reasons to not allow bitless in dressage, one of which is that contact with the mouth and lower jaw through a bit is part of some revered principles that people in dressage believe in sincerely whether they are supported by science or not. They truly believe that there is a "ring of muscles" that require the rider to recycle the energy of the hind end through the bit, and they think the horse requires this to attain true collection or extension. So the ideals and theories of dressage would have to change before bitless horses would place.

People see videos like this one and are inspired. But there are many factors that might make this scenario possible.




I just looked up the beach this girl is galloping on, and it is 0.7 miles (1.2 kilometers) long. I used to take my Arab and gallop her up a hill like this, that had a natural beginning and stopping place. Once she knew the routine, I'd give her a loose rein and she'd gallop full out and stop on her own at the end. Even when racing other horses. I'm not minimizing the fact that this girl rides bridleless, it's pretty cool. But we currently gallop on a 16 mile (25.7 kilometer) long beach. It has dogs, people, hidden hazards, cars, elk. My current riding partner is a TB we've clocked at well over 40 mph. After double the distance of this girl's entire beach, our horses are in full stride. At the end of our run, we do not have a loose rein, we have contact and are asking the horses to drop to a canter. Otherwise they would sometimes gallop on unsafely. I ride my mare in an english hackamore, my friend uses a simple snaffle. If we were more timid we could bit up, but we would be foolish to try to ride either horse in a sidepull in these circumstances.


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## danielbenham (Dec 10, 2016)

I was giving a presentation on learning theory the other day and one of my main points was how dressage needs to be updated to make it more ethical. That they penalise not only riding with less tack (bits or nosebands) but also prevent people using positive reinforcement through the use of their voice. I'm hoping that it changes soon.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Can you not ride freestyle dressage, like free style reining- as in,well, 'free style', which can be tackless or other modifications from \regular dressage' like using a bittless bridle, etc


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Dressage does not allow bit less riding because it is about progressive training and a horse who does not work into the bit is not fully trained. You can't have the same connection as a bitless. 

For others like hunters, beyond tradition there is no need to use a bit really. You're not supposed to be in their faces anyway.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The current ruling in dressage has nothing to do with how well the horse can perform without a bit, it dates back to the original conception of what dressage was about - training tests. If a horse wasn't able to work correctly in a bit then it wasn't considered fully trained
Part of the horse's training was how it progressed through the early stages of breaking to being ridden in a bit - and being compliant and responsive to the bit. That evolved into the dressage of today where the horses are moving onwards from accepting a snaffle bit through to accepting a double bridle
I'd rather see more pressure put on the way flash straps are used before starting a move to allow bitless bridles in the same competition as bitted one's
We ride all of our horses bitless at times, one of them most of the time so I've no bias either way


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sorry Apuetso - our posts crossed!!
I forgot the voice thing - the use of the voice is something again that your supposed to phase out as you progress through the training line - you will hear show jumpers using verbal cues occasionally but they have no place in the showing ring or a dressage ring.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Some odds and ends picked up from instrumented looks at bits...not sure I'd call them studies:








​ 
Rein Check
On contact, rein tension, and the myth of lightness

By Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PhD, DACVSMR, MRCVS

"...As dressage riders and trainers, we value the quality of lightness; but when I measure the amount of tension associated with a contact that feels correct to an experienced rider, it oscillates from about one pound to five pounds. Although five pounds sounds like a lot of tension to hold in your hand, it really doesn’t feel like a lot of weight in a dynamic situation. Some dressage texts lead us to believe that fully trained horses should take only a few ounces of contact with the rein. However, this advice is highly subjective and is not supported by actual measurements. Moreover, if rein tension is a consequence of the natural movements of the horse’s relaxed neck, then the mechanics of the motion dictate the amount of tension...

...It is difficult for a rider to correctly assess the amount of tension in the reins when the contact is dynamic and tension is constantly changing. Our goal as riders should be to offer our horses a consistent and predictable contact that allows them to seek the bit confidently and, in so doing, to use their entire bodies correctly..."

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...usdf-connection/copy_of_ReinCheckJune2011.pdf








​ 
"When tension was applied to the reins, the mouthpiece pressed more deeply into the tongue, thereby causing the joint to move away from the palate. Single-jointed bits are usually described as having a nutcracker-like action, the implication being that when tension is applied to the reins, the angle between the arms of the mouthpiece closes and the joint is pushed toward the palate. In our study, any nutcracker effect that tended to push the joint toward the palate was more than offset by indentation of the tongue." 

- Bitting: The Inside Story by Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PHD, MRCVS 

http://horseproblems.com.au/Bits/USDF_Dec05.pdf

A gag bit in use:








​ 
Now - take that information, and try to tell someone that they ride with pounds of pressure in the horse's mouth (slack reins seem to result in about 1-2 lbs) and not ounces. When I write something like "If you apply 5 lbs of pressure..." - I darn near get blasted off the Internet. How DARE I suggest riders use more than 3-4 ounces! I must be an incredible ham-fist and an abusive rider!

While I would enjoy reading more studies on bits and bitting, I'm not sure it would change how anyone rides. 

I would also like to see more studies done on bitless riding. The only one I've seen that wasn't done by someone selling bitless bridles was done by a dressage enthusiast, but I'd love to see some pressure readings on bitless designs:

"_Early studies on one type of bitless bridle, on the other hand, showed that the pressure on the nose, under the chin, and on the poll is quite high, Clayton added. Although this research is still in its early stages, Clayton said she isn't convinced the bitless bridle is more humane.

"Some people are under the impression that if you take the bit out of the horse's mouth, then you solve a lot of problems--that the bit is a source of pain," she said. "I would caution you that taking the bit away and simply putting pressure on the horse's nose may not be a cure-all."

Even so, the bitless bridle might be a "useful alternative" for horses that are unable to wear a bit, such as those with a lacerated tongue, she said.

Researcher Evaluates Bit, Rein Interaction with Equine Mouth
_
Researcher Evaluates Bit, Rein Interaction with Equine Mouth | TheHorse.com

I'll repeat this for emphasis from the same person: "_Our goal as riders should be to offer our horses a consistent and predictable contact that allows them to seek the bit confidently *and, in so doing, to use their entire bodies correctly*..._" If someone believes a horse needs to have a bit to "use their entire body properly", then maybe they need to stop doing research and go watch some horses move. A person with a bias like that would be no more impartial than someone selling bitless bridles.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Tradition is part of many disciplines, and if you don't like the rules, then don't show there, or work from within the organization to implement rule changes
Working cowhorse training, follows Vaquero tradition, in creating a Spade bit horse
Western riding 'tradition', far as showing, expects horse 5 and over, to be ridden in a curb, one handed, and again, if you just trail ride, does not affect you
That expectations indicates advanced training to me, and when I see a western hrose that needs to be ridden with two hands, again, shows lack of training, to me and many other western horsemen

Reining, also follows the same rules, far as showing in regular NRHA classes, in that a jr horse can be ridden in either a bosal or a snaffle,biut a senior horse must be shown one handed in a curb, and this is not due to that curb granting more control, ect, but the simple fact it is way, way, way easier to show a horse with two hands, then to show him compeltely off of that indirect rein, and a horse 5 and over, is expected to have that enducation.

The western curb was developed to facilitate riding with one hand, as it is better suited for that, then a snaffle, and "traditionally', the reason for this, was to keep the other hand free for roping, ect. It is also why, most western show people ride with their left hand, as most are right handed, thus leaving that right hand free.. I started out self taught, thus ride with my right hand on the reins, which is not a DQ, but rather not 'typical', and does have some disadvanatges , working trail obstacles, which are set up to be ridden left handed. I thus have to change hands at some obstacles, then change back, before leaving obstacle, as rules state you have to ride from that obstacle, using same hand you rode up to it


Free style reining, is a non pointed NRHA class, thus allows riders great degree of what bit,if any, or two hands versus one hand
You will thus see competitors in freestyle reining, going from one extreme to the other-that of using two hands on a curb,, to using nothing at all on the head, as per Stacy Westfall
Thus, my only question far as dressage, can not that free style also allow deviation from 'tradition ?
Sometimes 'green horse western classes are added to regular shows, where even a senior western horse can be shown with two hands. However, these classes do not earn regular points

Thus, my slant on bittless, versus bit, is based on western expectations, where a senior horse is expected to be able to be ridden one handed, and a curb is the best choice for that


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There would have to be a special Freestyle that allowed for bitless I think Smilie - because the current Freestyle is still judged under the same rules as a regular test where correct acceptance of the bit is part of the test.
I think it makes more sense to push for new classes for bitless horses than to try to integrate bitless in to the existing classes


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree with you, Jaydee
I think it is anyone's choice to chose bittless, for the right reason, but then they also can't expect rules to be changed, just to accommodate them, JMO


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ApuetsoT said:


> Dressage does not allow bit less riding because it is about progressive training and a horse who does not work into the bit is not fully trained. You can't have the same connection as a bitless.


Aside from 'headset' which is very often judged wrongly anyway, with people still getting rewarded for 'overbent' heads & nothing to do with the whole horse's carriage... there is absolutely no justification about the attitude that 'you can't have the same connection bitless'. If it were truly about 'progressive training'(As I agree it WAS supposed to be about, is in theory/ideal...), then they'd welcome the people who could train their horses 'progressively' not to need compulsive devices to make their horses perform!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Loosie, do you know of one horse, showing upper level movement, that did not first have some basic training in a bit?
Most horses at that level, where you drop the bridle,ride that horse with just a neck rope-whatever, were first trained using a bit
Many horses are started bittless, then as they progress, are bitted, as a bit will , in the right hands, create way more finesse then bittless, due to increased communication
Many people that advocate bittless, have no idea as to how to correctly educate the mouth of ahrose, to a bit, , thus get the idea that the horse is happier bittless, when in fact, he lacks the education far as how to respond to a bit correctly,or is ridden by someone, perhaps better off riding bittless, due to poor hands and feel
I have also seen some bittless devises, I would never use on a horse
It is pretty difficult, to judge a class where the judge has to not only judge horse against horse, but make adjustments, far as what that horse is ridden with
I can only talk western, but in a class, where senior horses are being ridden one handed, on a loose rein, keeping topline , collection off of seat and legs alone, very difficult tot hen throw in horses being ridden with two hands, on a bittless brilde and with contact. It si the bittless horse that then has the advantage, as anyone that has even shown a horse one handed, on a loose rein, knows!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> I can only talk western, but in a class, where senior horses are being ridden one handed, on a loose rein, keeping topline , collection off of seat and legs alone, very difficult tot hen throw in horses being ridden with two hands, on a bittless brilde and with contact. It si the bittless horse that then has the advantage, as anyone that has even shown a horse one handed, on a loose rein, knows!


I agree with @loosie. Wouldn't then the next progression of a trained horse be to be ridden one handed, on a loose rein in a bitless bridle? Why is the curb bit considered the top level of training, when a horse that could do the same thing one handed bitless would be even more trained than that?

Possibly it might be related to the yanking I see before classes and when the judge isn't looking, to correct the horse with the curb into the position that is desired. 

Why wouldn't the next progression of "self carriage" in dressage be that the curb bit could be removed and the horse could carry himself and respond to cues without the aid of the bit? 

I have seen horses doing upper level dressage movements that were trained in hand rather than with a bit and rider, and this is also how the Lippizaners are traditionally trained. I have a couple of modern books on this method, which is usually done using a cavesson and long reins.

I believe that some have also mentioned that western trainers are known to teach the ultra slow movement that western people call collection by training from the ground, following a slow moving vehicle in hand. So I would imagine the horse could be introduced to this way of going without the bit and learn to respond to direct reining cues with a sidepull or bosal, and neck reining cues on a loose rein later on. I don't believe the bit is a necessary part of the equation, but rather a traditional approach.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Smilie said:


> For instance, all bittless is not the same, any more then all bits. Some bittless devises, have the potential of being way more severe then a bit, esp in the wrong hands, same as abit.


This.

Look up the damage a mechanical hackamore can do to a horse. Don't do it right after lunch!

Bitless is not superior. You are just moving the pressure point from the bars of the mouth to the nasal bone. That bone becomes very thin in the last few inches. 

Correct use of a bit should not be in constant contact. Yes, I'm taking a shot at certain disciplines on that. 

If you rode certain hackamores the same way you would have a visible indentation across the horse's muzzle. 

All that said, you aren't going to convince people making money that they are wrong unless you can beat them.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Wasn't there a picture posted on another thread of a lipper being trained? And some got all ****y about it because the horse looked ticked off, and gawd forbid there was a whip involved! No bit, in hand, but a whip. Eeeeeeek!

And let's get real. Most of us on this forum do not have the skill set to train and show a horse at the upper levels of any discipline with a bit, let alone bitless. 

As stated above, bits are not the issue, how they are used is. Bitless is not the next coming of Christ. And bitless devices can be cruel with a clueless person.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Loosie, do you know of one horse, showing upper level movement, that did not first have some basic training in a bit?


No, not upper level stuff, but why do you ask? What's that got to do with people being allowed/encouraged to 'progressing' to bitless/bridleless?



> Many horses are started bittless, then as they progress, are bitted, as a bit will , in the right hands, create way more finesse then bittless, due to increased communication


IME, with people who largely ride more 'english' style over here, and especially most people who are focussed on dressage & competition, that is not common. Most horses are started - and kept in - bits. Period. I know it has always been common to start western horses bitless tho. I also don't agree with the 'more finesse/communication' comment. When horses are such sensitive creatures, I don't even get the idea that they need a piece of metal in their mouth to communicate effectively. Though I did once believe that(because it's what 'they' all say...). And I also have no problem with a bit being used for 'finesse' on a well trained horse. Apart from 'fixing head set' and complying with show rules, I don't think there's anything you can do in a bit you can't bitless.



> I have also seen some bittless devises, I would never use on a horse


Absolutely! It's like the term 'natural' - just because it is such doesn't necessarily mean it's 'Good'.

...And I agree with the person - Jaydee? - that said more emphasis needs to be put on the use of tight nose bands - if necessity of a bit is about 'acceptance' of the bit, how the hell can you even have a clue about that, when the horse's mouth is tied shut??:-x If that is the reason that bitless isn't allowed, then nosebands certainly shouldn't be either!


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

loosie said:


> ...And I agree with the person - Jaydee? - that said more emphasis needs to be put on the use of tight nose bands - if necessity of a bit is about 'acceptance' of the bit, how the hell can you even have a clue about that, when the horse's mouth is tied shut??:-x If that is the reason that bitless isn't allowed, then nosebands certainly shouldn't be either!


Cavasons are not allowed in shows here. I've had one trainer who insisted on it, knowing as a former accomplished USEF Judge that they aren't allowed in virtually any class. 

Simplistic, but if I can't show in it, I don't want to use it. I'm not really that big of a show guy, and mostly do working horse classes. That said it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me to train differently than you would show and expect to do well. 

Bits are a complicated topic that will not be solved here. The NFR that just wrapped up demonstrates the complexity of the issue. Horses that can win the world championship in any timed event can be ridden in a loose ring snaffle. They are "blown up" though. Carefully watch an NFR level round winning horse in the box on a loose ring snaffle just before the run. Mouth gaped open, crazy eyes, sweating. Does a horse that guys can win $30k a night on hate their bit; or are they just waiting to go! They can go too, all of those horses have tremendous speed indexes in a sprint. 

I'm a fan of the traditional Hackamore (la jaquima) and the art of training a horse in this manner. The end goal was a spade bit. The purpose of the hackamore was to teach the horse to respond to a signal, a lift of a rein. I think that is a poignant thing to remember in the bit vs. bitless conversation. A "finished" horse in that tradition, used a bit.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Loosie

'.And I agree with the person - Jaydee? - that said more emphasis needs to be put on the use of tight nose bands - if necessity of a bit is about 'acceptance' of the bit, how the hell can you even have a clue about that, when the horse's mouth is tied shut?? If that is the reason that bitless isn't allowed, then nosebands certainly shouldn't be either!

I am not going to get into English versus western, beyond telling you that nosebands are not even legal, western, let alone tight ones, and that a Dr Cook bittless bridle has more pressure then a western head stall!
Again, western, you can't use a nose band or cavasson of any kind, thus I don't train with one either. Thus, my horses work with a quiet, closed and relaxed mouth, because they truly are relaxed!
It is also a fact, that using a bit correctly, I can give complete release, while many bittless bridles never give that complete release, as in those cross under jobs. There are some bones and nerves, covered by not much, under those jaws
Some horses do prefer a bit, used correctly, over those bittless bridles that never completely release pressure
Like I said before, ride bittless if you want to, advocate for bittless classes of your choice, but don't expect to create an /anything goes, for established disciplines


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as rodeo horses, or any horse used in speed events, you can't compare them to horses shown in judged disciplines, where way of going, and not the clock, decides the outcome
Ever watch race hroses, heading tot he starting gate ?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

sarahfromsc said:


> As stated above, bits are not the issue, how they are used is.


Yup, 99% agree with you. I do think that there is enough info about other aspects of bit effects - digestive & breathing for eg - and I have attended a dissection where we got to feel how tongue pressure actually physically effected the hind end of a horse... to *question* other effects though, and I also think that, mechanical leverage devices aside, in bad hands/an uneducated horse, bits do cause more pain & potential damage than bitless/a halter. Therefore I think bits should generally be left for the 'refinement' phase of riding, when the horse no longer needs actual physical pressure to respond, **and when the rider is skilled enough to use the reins well.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> I am not going to get into English versus western, beyond telling you that nosebands are not even legal, western,


I thought we were discussing dressage comps.



> and that a Dr Cook bittless bridle has more pressure then a western head stall!
> ... many bittless bridles never give that complete release, as in those cross under jobs.


Yep, many, including myself have already said that bitless doesn't necessarily equate to 'good'. I agree with you that the crossunder ones aren't nice...


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> I have attended a dissection where we got to feel how tongue pressure actually physically effected the hind end of a horse...


Explain? I'd like  to know how this was possible on a cadaver.
(Hands do effect the hind legs, not disputing that)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wonder how competitive a bitless horse would be in upper level dressage against one that's ridden in the conventional double bridle?
Things like the rules on btv should be stricter but you can get a horse btv just as easily bitless as you can with a bit so I don't think it would solve that problem


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

“I should like balls infinitely better,' she replied, 'if they were carried on in a different manner; but there is something insufferably tedious in the usual process of such a meeting. It would surely be much more rational if conversation instead of dancing were made the order of they day.'

*'Much more rational, my dear Caroline, I dare say, but it would not be near so much like a ball.”*

-- Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice (1813)​.
Traditional dressage without a bit may be like Hunt Seat without the jumps, or Western Pleasure done fast. If part of the point of dressage is how well a horse responds to a double bridle, then bitless dressage...might be much more rational, but not near so much like dressage.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> Yup, 99% agree with you. I do think that there is enough info about other aspects of bit effects - digestive & breathing for eg - and I have attended a dissection where we got to feel how tongue pressure actually physically effected the hind end of a horse... to *question* other effects though, and I also think that, mechanical leverage devices aside, in bad hands/an uneducated horse, bits do cause more pain & potential damage than bitless/a halter. Therefore I think bits should generally be left for the 'refinement' phase of riding, when the horse no longer needs actual physical pressure to respond, **and when the rider is skilled enough to use the reins well.


Agree that bits, like spurs, should be left for the refinement, and used by people that understand correct use of both, who also have a lot of feel and timing, who ride with more legs then hands


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## Bright Stride Equine (Oct 20, 2016)

It has a lot less to do with what is on the horse's face and a lot more to do with whose hands are at the other end.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ApuetsoT said:


> Explain? I'd like to know how this was possible on a cadaver.
> (Hands do effect the hind legs, not disputing that)


One person had their hand on the horse's tongue, another manipulating the hind leg - tongue person could feel that very obviously. Vice versa. Instructor had us put our hand on a certain muscle(somewhere high on hammy) while other person pushed on tongue. You could feel it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

And, if the horse has been taught to just carry that Bit?
Studies are often manipulated, with selective data/population used
For instance, The great Dr Cook, inventor of that Dr Cook bridle, used horses in his study, which was of course, anti bits, on race hroses and polo ponies-both of which are ridden with strong bit contact, and in the case of polo ponies, also tie downs
Conversely, any studies far as effect, using pressure from that cross under bittless bridle and some mechanical hackamores?
How about amount of bit contact used?
Are you trying to suggest, Loosie, by that study, that the secret to hind end engagement, movement, is afterall, related to the head set, and bit action, versus the accepted truth that hindend engagement depends on riding back to front, more legs then hands, and my legs sure are along distance from my horse's tongue!
Who funded, hosted that study?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

perhaps, read some of the research data from Dr Hilary Clayton, who has studied bits and their actions for a decade or two, and yes, competes in dressage
This paragraph from the link below it

'I think that some of the resistances that we see in different bits are actually the horse's way of trying to relieve pressure on the palate," she said. Essentially Clayton suggested that riders should try to avoid putting pressure on the hard tissues (like the palate and the jaw bones) and keep the pressure primarily on the tongue.

Early studies on one type of bitless bridle, on the other hand, showed that the pressure on the nose, under the chin, and on the poll is quite high, Clayton added. Although this research is still in its early stages, Clayton said she isn't convinced the bitless bridle is more humane.

"Some people are under the impression that if you take the bit out of the horse's mouth, then you solve a lot of problems--that the bit is a source of pain," she said. "I would caution you that taking the bit away and simply putting pressure on the horse's nose may not be a cure-all."


www.thehorse.com/articles/28979/researcher-evaluates-bit-rein-interaction-with-equine-mouth


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Conversely, any studies far as effect, using pressure from that cross under bittless bridle and some mechanical hackamores?


It would be interesting to see a study done on pressure and also nerve responses(thinking especially of some 'bitless' & halters that focus on 'pressure points'...) of different contraptions. I think it would be a big eye opener for many who think they use a 'kinder' bitless option!



> Are you trying to suggest, Loosie, by that study, that the secret to hind end engagement, movement, is afterall, related to the head set, and bit action, versus the accepted truth that hindend engagement depends on riding back to front, more legs then hands, and my legs sure are along distance from my horse's tongue!


Oh, don't get me onto the subject of 'accepted truths':icon_rolleyes::lol: but no, not at all suggesting anything of the sort. It was only an observation the lecturer had us see/feel. That one end, even the tongue, is minutely effected & connected with the other. Only a 'study' in the sense we were there to study anatomy.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I bought a Dr Cook for a horse that needed to be bitless for a while. I didn't actually know how it worked when I ordered it - I expected it to be a regular sidepull for some reason. The horse was ridden in it all that summer and went great in it, even some jumping. Recently we tried it on another horse and she freaked out big style really quickly, maybe the different pressure, maybe it gave confusing signals. She rides really well in a Stubben hackamore, much better than in a bit
No two horses are the same


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I found this interesting. For me it says that the nerves in the mouth react on the brain! 







There are people who rode bitless and bridleless, most are in an enclosed space. From experience I know that regardless of the training in certain circumstances, when horses are in a 'herd' situation, having control without a bit would be unlikely.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

What is that video supposed to be illustrating? All I see is a pony being terrorized.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I see the 'full tap' lable, so I have a fair idea what it's about, but agree with apeutsot. All that video tells me is that IMO, that bloke needs someone to force a bit in his mouth & his head wrestled to his side. While someone frightens the hell out of him. And the owners & watchers all need a smack for allowing it!!

Of course, using a bit, for sharp pain, you can force a horse to do stuff that he would otherwise fight you about. But Fox, you can easily get the horse to put his head in that position with a halter(or even without), by TEACHING them to YIELD!



> There are people who rode bitless and bridleless, most are in an enclosed space. From experience I know that regardless of the training in certain circumstances, when horses are in a 'herd' situation, having control without a bit would be unlikely.


Couldn't agree with you less there. (Except to bridleless... but possibly just lack of confidence & not feeling up to that task, that I don't feel safe riding without any head gear when out on the trail) I don't know about 'most' people only riding bitless in an enclosed area - it is quite common over here these days, to ride in a halter or bitless bridle(gone are the days where I was the only eccentric...) While most people I've seen who do stick to arenas DO use bits(perhaps their focus on competition, perhaps just lack of confidence/training), I am but one of many people, including my kids, ride out bitless.

From my experience, I know that regardless of training, in certain circumstances, no horse will be reliably controllable, bit or otherwise. Of course, having a means of strong punishment like that can help be more effective in many situations. If it doesn't make it worse - experienced that too. Having ridden & seen many bitted horses who lacked control, and I assume you have too, I don't know how you can say that bits = reliable control. Likewise, for many years now, I've ridden many different horses bitless, usually in a group situation. I've 'retrained' difficult personalities who were not in controllable in a bit. Sometimes at speed or in a competitive environment - we've raced our horses, jumped, gone past or through Very Scary Things. Horses have had to learn to leave their mates, or allow their mates to run off while they hang back. Etc. In short, all the things I'd expect from a well trained horse, regardless of headgear. IMO it's about training, not what piece of tack you choose. And I don't use a bit, until the horse is pretty reliably well trained without it, so I DON'T need to use it for control, with force.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> There are people who rode bitless and bridleless, most are in an enclosed space. From experience I know that regardless of the training in certain circumstances, when horses are in a 'herd' situation, having control without a bit would be unlikely.


I too have to disagree with this. I do quite a bit of pasture riding for the convenience of time I just take Oliver’s rope halter, tie the other end of the lead rope to the other side and hop on. Not much pressure on the reins/nose there or the knot comes undone and you are left riding with one rein. 










I do it right in the middle of the rest of the herd (not something I would suggest for others. Safety etc.) and we walk off. One day, Cowboy took off and then Caspian, followed by Ghost. Oliver loves a good race.

I could hear them all coming up behind and loping towards us, out of the paddock and into the pasture. It was a nice cool morning and everyone was frisky. I actually expected Oliver to start running too and was ready for it. As they all went past us, he stopped like I asked and we continued on at a nice walk; in control. Did my heart take a little bit of a leap in my chest? Yes, for a brief moment. At that point, he was still untested as to what he would do in that situation with his herd running past him in the open pasture and not only was I in a halter, I was bareback as well, though I did at least have a helmet on that day.

That was the day I knew our training had done its job. His mind was with me, not with the herd (he is the leader of the herd). 

The mind is what ultimately controls the feet, not the bit. If you have their mind, you have their feet. A bit is one way to accomplish that task but, there are others. It isn't just that the horse is trained to bit-less that makes it effective, the rider has to know the best way to use that particular apparatus as well. (a western Hackamore works on different principle than say a Dr Cooks)

Maybe it is the cattle training he was exposed to (herd situation of a different type), maybe it is the way he was trained, ridden for nearly a year on trails in bosal/mecate which is also bitless. Just a hanger, no throat latch.










Those were the days he was still learning that his job was no longer mounting the mare flagging him in front of us; green horse with a sex drive, bit-less on an open trail with a mare saying "Hey babe!" the control I had didn't come from my being in his mouth but, inside his head. Maybe it is his level headed personality or our partnership or maybe he likes our little hacks out so he behaves himself but, I don't think twice about having control riding him bitless in any situation where I would need to have control such as a spook. Now if I want to communicate a refinement of motion, that's a different story.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The video was showing what a different reaction the handler got when he put the pony in a bit - in the halter it was a non stop battle but the moment the bit was introduced the pony felt he was 'under control' and was a totally different animal
It doesn't always work as some horses react badly to a bit but not a halter but I do find that if I have a horse that's difficult to lead in a halter the moment I put a bridle on that same horse is 100% compliant


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

So here is an honest question. What if you took the time to train that horse who was difficult in the halter not to be? Make his leading skill shine like a new penny. Would that possibly make him even softer in the bit?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

That's Pony knew how to yield to the halter pressure but he wasn't going to follow the tap method. I only put it up to show how a bit gives more control than nose pressure. 

I also do not think the pony was frightened, he was at the clinic because he was giving the owners problems. They did not want to use a bit in his mouth. Paul tried in the halter but the little toerag was just fighting regardless and trying to intimidate. 

I am not one to lay horses down as routine but I have every respect for the way Paul Williams works and can see the reason for him using it as routine. He has saved many a racehorse from ending up on a dinner plate in the Far East because he can turn them around faster using the Tap.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It isn't easy to train a horse not to bolt off when being led in a halter if its got its mind set on doing that and it's learnt that it can succeed - a small pony you can usually win with by using your own strength and techniques but the bigger they get the harder it gets especially if they decide to start going vertical or leaping through the air. 
People that talk about retraining this sort make it sound very simple - if the horse hasn't been trained to understand verbal cues you can start from there but a lot of the time they know exactly what whoa and steady means they just choose to ignore it in the same way that they choose to ignore the pressure on their nose
It's why chains get used and things like Chifney bits - sometimes using something that the horse actually respects is the only way to break the cycle of habit


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I think there are extremes on either end of the spectrum. You have the ones that have been spoiled or are just plain out of control for a variety of reasons and then you have horses like my Old Ghost who wouldn't dare. I think though, that most fall somewhere in between which his where my other's are and might be worth a try.

There is an old saying: whether you believe you can or believe you can't, either way, you are probably right.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You just can't just compare bits and bittless without taking many things into consideration, far as how well that horse was first taught to yield to pressure, what education a horse had with a bit, as, lets face it, direct action bittless devises, use much of the same pressure points horses have learned, since they were first halter broke
The problem with the use of bits, is in most times, application, realizing the mouth is virgin territory , when a horse is first bitted, and the hrose needs to learn to yield to those new pressure points, versus assuming he should automatically transfer that understanding from his nose, face, ect, to his mouth
To me, a mouth is 'sacred\, and if a horse who understands how to give to a halter, refuses to, I will go to a stud shank, and never, never to a bit
All too often, mechanical hacks are just lumped into bittless, with many people not acknowledging there is a huge difference between a bosal or bittless bridle, to a mechanical Hack, same as between a snaffle and a curb
I love bosals, and used them a lot, riding not senior hroses, but junior horses, as senior horses, are expected to have 'graduated from needing to be ridden two handed, in either a bosal or snaffle
Maybe it is this difference in ideology, between western and English, far as mechanical hackamores. They are not legal in any judged western event, and reserved for events like gymkana, where even bits not legal elsewhere are used, and where one can ride with two hands on a curb
I also think, when comparing bits to bittless, they way you ride comes into play, and thus you can't compare the two, without also comparing western versus English
If you ride where contact is always a part of the picture, where nosebands are used, then I can see where Dr Cook came to his conclusions, regarding bits, as he used polo ponies and race hroses in his studies to support hi stance that bits cause damage
Yes, I know, there are many great English riders, who ride with very light hands, and there are western riders that never stay out of a horse's mouth, so am not making a general statement, beyond the fact, that in a discipline where tow handed riding and contact is an elementary stage, where a horse graduates to just carrying a bit, ridden on aloose rein, cannot be compared where that horse is always ridden with two hands and some contact
Thus, to be fair, I think this topic of bittless versus bit, has to be divided between English and western, or it just has too many variables to come to any conclusions


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> Wouldn't then the next progression of a trained horse be to be ridden one handed, on a loose rein in a bitless bridle?


Well shoot! I must be a lot more advanced than I thought. I've been riding Hondo one handed on a loose rein in a Cook's for over two years now. :cowboy:

@Reiningcatsandogs; I enjoyed the video of the bridle-less rider. I was impressed. But would she lose points for her toes? They were pointed down a lot of the time. No matter, she lost no points with me.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Darned if I know why it needs to be either/or. Why does one have to be "good" and the other "bad"? Why can't both be good, unless used badly?

If a sport wants to make judgments based on "Double Bridle" or "One Hand in a Curb", that is the sport's prerogative. No reason why anyone outside that sport needs to care, and anyone who dislikes how a sport is done can start their own.

It doesn't take science studies. Just open eyes. Are there healthy, happy horses ridden in bits with contact? Yep. Millions, maybe. What about bits without constant contact? Yep. Millions. Bitless? Yep. Maybe not as many, but a huge number.

So...what is the question? And does it need to be asked?


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Sorry to interrupt not sure if the girl who was galloping tackless had her name mentioned, her name is Alycia Burton she's amazing! She does lots of clinics in Australia and New Zealand if you look her up on YouTube she has some jumping videos as well


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

About riding bitless with a Cook's in a stampeding herd. Been there. Done that. Even before Hondo was mine, but still after I had bonded and ridden him quite a bit. (without a bit

We were just about to enter the 60 acre field where Hondo now stays. The herd of 20 or so horses were about 50 yards away. Don't know what happened but they all started stampeding toward and through the gate. Somehow I managed to keep Hondo within a 10 foot or so circle. Not without turning this way and that to see what was going on. But he did not take off. After the herd settled in the field, we rode over and joined them for a while before going and de-tacking. Hondo had time to think and responded to the Cook's just fine. I don't see how a bit could have helped at all. In my green hands at the time it may very well have been a hindrance.

According to Henry Wynmalen, Dressage means Teaching, but that teaching in beyond just training.

And although Wynmalen being a Dressage person expresses that all revolves around the bit, he also writes:

Quote: "The presence of a bit in the horse's mouth, and its action, is the first basic conflict between the interests of horse and man."

Page 62, Dressage


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Well shoot! I must be a lot more advanced than I thought. I've been riding Hondo one handed on a loose rein in a Cook's for over two years now. :cowboy:
> 
> @Reiningcatsandogs; I enjoyed the video of the bridle-less rider. I was impressed. But would she lose points for her toes? They were pointed down a lot of the time. No matter, she lost no points with me.



Riding with aloose rein, one handed, on a broke horse, is easy. Riding that horse in all gaits and maneuvers one handed, not so much! My husband rides down the trail, one handed, but I would not say that his horse could truly be ridden one handed, in any complicated pattern.
The Dr COOk Bridle is one of those cross under jobs, I believe, so never truly releases all pressure
Also, I never said it matters how an individual rides-if you want to ride with two hands on a curb, or one hand on a snaffle, go for it. You just can't compare bittless to a bit, without also comparing as to whether that bit is used with contact, whether that bittless devise has leverage, ect
I mean, I can put any bit in the mouth of one of my trained horses, be it a signal jointed snaffle, a curb with jointed mouth, a curb with a port, a bosal and they ride just fine, don't mind that bit, although they might work better in one then the other, but still listen, don't seem to not 'like' a bit.
Thus, my point being, in remains training and expectations and how that equipment is sued, rather on whether bittless is better then a bit, or visa versa


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Again, Bittless and bridleless are not the same thing,
Most of those horses, if not all, that are ridden tackless, have first been trained 'traditionally', developing the bond that allows the headgear to be dropped completely
This article goes into it-a good read
Bitless Or Bridle-Less? What Is The Difference?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> The Dr COOk Bridle is one of those cross under jobs, I believe, so never truly releases all pressure.


If the reins are attached to a bit, the pressure of the centenary in the reins is never "truly" released.

As mentioned in another post, if a horse can feel a fly landing on his rumble seat in a forty mile windstorm, why can't he sense the slightest change in tension of a strap running down the side of his face and under his chin?

If I'm stopped and Hondo is not munching on flora but is ready to go, all I need to do is move my hand 2-3 inches forward and he starts moving. That said, I may be doing other things with other body parts that I'm not aware of.

I doubt we will ever advance to complicated dressage maneuvers, but we've jumped small ditches at either a canter or gallop and also trot. Flatfooted a jump across about a four foot wide ditch. (surprised me, i was asking him to go down in it but there was something he didn't like said hold on harold we're going for it) It was a good experience for me as I learned what it felt like for a horse to gather his feet under him in preparation for a flat footed jump from standing.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Another Quote o The Week!



There is an old saying: whether you believe you can or believe you can't, either way, you are probably right.

Thanks RCD!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> That's Pony knew how to yield to the halter pressure but he wasn't going to follow the tap method. ...Paul tried in the halter but the little toerag was just fighting regardless and trying to intimidate.


It is obvious that in many situations, such as this, that the sharp 'pressure' from a bit enables a horse to be forced to comply to stuff he can get away with in a halter. There's no debating that. 

IME he obviously hadn't learned to yield anywhere well enough, and the way the guy was going about it was only encouraging the 'fight', regardless of pony's attitude.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Again it is not bit verus bittless, but rtaher the mental conditioning, so whatever you decide to ride with, doesnot matter, long as you understand it is not the bit itself, or that nose pressure, but rather conditioned response, that allows brildless demos.

No one gets on and rides horses tackless, doing any complicated maneuvers, without that horse first having had an ingrained response, to bit, seat and legs, that ultimately allow that bit or bittless bridle to be completly dropped. 
Thus, those tackless demos are by no means proof as to what can be achieved, without ever using a bit, or even a head stall, but rather the end result, of using a regular training program, usually centered around a bit, so that the horse advances to being able to have that bridle dropped completely,ridden purely off of the other two aids left-seat and legs.


From the link I posted :

Bitless Or Bridle-Less? What Is The Difference?
Published August 6, 2014 Leave a Comment

Bitless or Bridle-less? To me, there’s a big difference. Often when I write about riding my horses bridle-less, people confuse it with the issue of riding bitless. To me, they are totally different subjects.

At expos and clinics, I am often asked, “Is it okay for me to ride my horse bitless?” It is presumed in this circumstance that you will use headgear of some sort– be it a rope halter, side-pull, hackamore or bitless bridle.

When I talk about riding bridle-less, I am referring to what I personally feel is the ultimate bond with my horse—to be able to ride complex maneuvers and patterns with nothing on his head and no reins or physical control of the head and no way to physically restrain the horse.

To answer the question of whether or not you should ride your horse bit-less (with some other form of headgear), I would ask you three simple questions: Do you ever have trouble stopping or turning your horse? Is your horse ever disobedient? Does your horse ever spook and bolt? If the answer to any of these question is yes, then personally, I would not want to be riding that horse bitless.

Truth is, most well-trained horses will work just fine bitless. Many horses actually work better bitless—with a rope halter, hackamore or bitless bridle for control–because they do not have the added stress of a rider who is inarticulate or unskilled with her hands or the harsh pressure of a totally inappropriate bit, both of which happen a lot more often than you might think.

There are many good reasons to ride a horse in some sort of bitless headgear—from dental issues to scarring on the tongue; from a young green horse to a sensitive horse with a heavy-handed rider. As long as you have adequate control of your horse at all times, there’s certainly nothing wrong with going bitless.


Limitations may come into play when you are training a horse without a bit, when you ask for more difficult things like collection, jumping, rollbacks, etc. The more difficult it is for the horse to comply with your request, the more likely he will be to ignore the pressure on his nose. He may well make the decision that he’d rather live with the pressure on his nose than do the more difficult thing that you are asking.

The bit is one tool that riders use to allow you to put enough pressure on the horse to motivate him to do things he isn’t otherwise motivated to do. Sort of like a person being willing to work overtime if he makes time-and-a-half, a horse is more motivated to do hard stuff in order to avoid pressure on the bit.

For myself, my ultimate goal with my horse is to be so bonded, so in-sync with, so in-control of him that I don’t need any head gear at all. When my horse is so obedient that he says, “Yes sir Captain! Your wish is my command,” and he listens intently to my body position and gestures for cues as to the direction and speed of the course I have chartered for us, it is truly an accomplishment.

This is not a relationship that develops overnight; however, with a horse that is already well-trained, experienced and willing, it can be accomplished quickly, if the rider has enough skill. A horse that is responsive, compliant, willing and eager to please, that is finished in his cues, can perform complex maneuvers, has a good work ethic and is respectful of authority, is years in the making and usually involves a bit and a skilled rider.

Once I start riding a horse bridle-less, I still constantly revert to riding with the bridle, to reinforce as needed to keep my horse honest, sharp in his responses and to develop new skills.

The bit, or more accurately, the rider’s hands, can be the cause of many, many training problems. The wrong bit in a horse’s mouth can cause problems as well and the right bit can resolve lots of problems, as you may have seen on many episodes of Horse Master. A bit cannot train a horse, only a skilled rider can; but it can sure cause a lot of problems.

On the other hand, the bit is a communication tool that when used properly— not as a cue, but as reinforcement of a cue and only as needed—can assist the rider in developing the performance and cooperation of the horse. To me, the bit allows us to develop a fine line of communication between horse and rider—so fine that the horse can perform incredible maneuvers, cued only from the rider’s seat, legs and gestures and without the need of any type of bridle.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry for posting that entire link, but I feel it is info often not taken into account, far as bits and bittless/tackless riding demos
The author is Julie Goodnight


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

You can definitely condition horses to gallop in a herd situation or very exciting situation in a sidepull or gentle bitless bridle. 
In my mind, these are the steps/factors that mean either success or failure:

1) Training the horse to understand the cues.
2) Developing trust toward the rider (following your cues will lead to safety, not harm). 
3) Conditioning the horse to the expected situation (such as spooky woods, big horse show, open country, running with groups of horses).
4) The horse's personality.

#1-3 we have control over. #4 will prevent some horses from being safe to ride bitless even if steps 1-3 are done perfectly. The ability to control a horse's speed is a gift given to us by the horse. There is no way to force it or turn the horse into a robot. It is nothing personal and does not mean the horse dislikes us or that our training was poor. What it means is that the horse has more incentive to do something besides what we are asking. 

Some horses are content to obey cues from the rider all the time. Other horses try to figure out how they can go faster than the rider wishes when they feel high spirited. This is not wrong or bad, and it is not wrong or bad to use a bit that works on these horses even when they want to see what they can get away with. We can be gentle as long as the horse is gentle and obedient, and also provide incentive to listen when necessary. 

I think humans are the same. Some are happy to follow rules, but others don't care for rules and will only follow once they understand the necessary concept behind a rule. I don't think some horses understand why we must limit speed when it is so insanely fun to gallop as fast as you can. In a horse's world, there is no harm in a fast gallop. In order to get them to follow our random rules, we have to provide enough incentive to do so. Just like you can get a human to follow a rule if there is a reward or penalty for following or not following it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> It isn't easy to train a horse not to bolt off when being led in a halter if its got its mind set on doing that and it's learnt that it can succeed - a small pony you can usually win with by using your own strength and techniques but the bigger they get...
> People that talk about retraining this sort make it sound very simple ...
> It's why chains get used and things like Chifney bits - sometimes using something that the horse actually respects is the only way to break the cycle of habit


Yes, it can be time consuming, depending on how ingrained previous 'lessons' to the contrary have been, can take lots of *consistent* repetition to show the horse it no longer works, and the horse is likely to 'try harder' at behaviour that it's learned worked previously, before he gives it up. So I wouldn't say 'easy'. But I think I would still class it as 'simple', being just a matter of teaching some basic principles, show them what behaviour IS acceptable, rewarding the Right Things and preventing the wrong.

I'm also not one for stud chains, rearing bits & the likes, I prefer to use minimal punishment & only strong punishment when absolutely necessary. Of course, this depends on your definition of the term, but I don't personally call fear of punishment 'respect' either.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> You just can't just compare bits and bittless without taking many things into consideration,...


Just wanted to say, well explained, all of that post.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

How or why is it that a bit will slow an exuberant horse where a bitless will not?

It would seem to me it is the avoidance of pain or the threat of pain. Granted that may be necessary with some horses but I don't understand the difference in the stopping power of the two other than one has the potential to cause pain and the other does not.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I have great respect for Julie Goodnight for her riding and training abilities.

Julie says: "Does your horse ever spook and bolt? If the answer to any of these question is yes, then personally, I would not want to be riding that horse bitless."

My comment: Hondo used to spook and bolt. He has not spooked and bolted going on 1 1/2 years. I firmly believe his spook and bolts in the past would have occurred with a bit. He was only controllable when the fear subsided enough for him to think. And when he was thinking, bitless worked fine.


Julie says: "The bit is one tool that riders use to allow you to put enough pressure on the horse to motivate him to do things he isn’t otherwise motivated to do."

My comment: I see the bit as a whip. Julie dances around the notion of a bit being a whip, but she gets very close to clearly stating it in the above sentence.

But again, maybe the horse needs a whip. But if so, then so.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> How or why is it that a bit will slow an exuberant horse where a bitless will not? It would seem to me it is the avoidance of pain or the threat of pain.


Depends on why a horse spooks and bolts. Some do it from fear. But some horses will just want to run fast. Not scared, just excited. When a horse refuses to listen to you and thus creates a dangerous situation for himself and others...then I have no problem with using the avoidance of pain to end it.
."I am going to ask you a question, and before you read on I would like you to answer it clearly – to yourself.

Question: “Why does a horse stop or go slower if you pull on the reins?” If you answer, “Because it hurts the mouth,” I am sorry to have to break the news to you – you have failed.

But no, I'll give you another chance: “Why do you jump up instantly if you sit on an upturned tack or drawing pin?”

If you answer again: “Because it hurts” - you really do need to read every word in this book! *The horse stops – and you jump up – not just because it hurts, but to stop it hurting. By no means the same thing.*

And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, you would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse. These are not trick questions. If you really believe in and act on the answer you gave to the first, then you think that all you have to do is to hurt your horse's mouth and he will stop.

On the contrary, the important thing is to let him know – to teach him – how, by doing what you want of him, he can avoid any pain, irritation, inconvenience and discomfort the bit (or whip or spur) might otherwise cause." 

- Tom Roberts, “Horse Control – The Young Horse” (Griffin Press, Netley, South Australia, 1974)​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In the end, whether you ride with a bit or without one, the ultimate deciding factor is s to how you use either, and the training of the horse.
I have no problem with anyone chosing bitless, just the concept that it is more 'natural/better,, or with the idea a horse prefering bitless, if the true fact is that the horse was never trained to respond to a bit correctly, or the rider, far as using a bit correctly
Not much we do with our horses is 'natural', including riding, de -worming, immunization, clipping, stabling, ect
Thus for me, NH is not bit versus bitless, treed saddle versus treeless, barefoot versus shod, but rather just good training , using balance and empathy


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> "I am going to ask you a question, and before you read on I would like you to answer it clearly – to yourself.


My answer was to avoid the pain which is an aversive response not to be confused with willing compliance.

Pain works.

Spook and bolt is fear based. Always.

harold, beginner, arizona, 12-17-16

PS: Dragon has no training beyond halter. We'll see how the theories hold up. I will be training him in a Cook's.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Bolts are not all fear based. Horses can run away because they want to run. And if you are ever on a horse running fast - fear or excitement - who NEEDS to slow...whatever it takes. Otherwise you and your horse may die.

Nor do I agree pain is pain. I've pulled very hard on a Tom Thumb curb bit with Bandit - just to raise his head from eating grass. Much harder than I've ever used it while moving. And he did not get upset in any way. When I pulled hard enough, he raised his head and we walked off - not gaping, no tossing head, etc. Heck, Bandit will buck if he gets upset...but he wasn't upset.

A bit some people would ban, used with much more force than I've ever used riding - yet all it did was get him to raise his head and agree to stop eating. 

So...is that "pain"? It was probably uncomfortable, but did it hurt?

The key, IMHO, is Bandit knew what to do to get release - so HE was choosing. He'll get ****y bitless if he thinks it is unfair. But...Tom Thumb curb. Pulling very hard. Wasn't upset. Hmmm....

BTW - he was often ridden in a bosal before I owned him. He also has a lot of white hairs on the bridge of his nose. Nowhere else. Something to think about.

"_the ultimate deciding factor is...how you use either, and the training of the horse_" - @*Smilie* - This. It is also why it is impossible to do a scientific study that examines one variable.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I didn't say all bolts were fear based. I said all spook and bolts were fear based. Fear is part and parcel to the meaning of spook.

Maybe Bandit's got a mouth that's been toughened up and is more insensitive than others?

Brain MRI's can detect pain reception areas in the brain lighting up. But I reckon it'd be hard to carry one in a saddle bag.

Can't really have any opinion about pulling hard on Bandit's bit. Maybe it was just pulling on his teeth and chin?

Agreed that the training makes a difference. Personally, I divide them into two large categories. Aversive and Willing Compliance.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...Maybe Bandit's got a mouth that's been toughened up and is more insensitive than others?...


Something I've noticed about Bandit is that he canters more eagerly in a light weight bit with slack reins than a heavier bit with slack reins. I have a lot of faults as a rider, but creating hard-mouth horses is NOT one of them.

I just don't buy the "bits are painful" argument. Why? Because my horses "talk" a lot, and none of them say bits hurt. Bandit is not a subtle horse. He has no problem with "_Can you hear me NOW?_" If Hondo had bad past experiences with a bit, then he may strongly dislike them - just as Trooper became terrified of cowboy hats after a guy wearing a cowboy hat spurred him bloody. But the problem isn't that bits are painful, but someone used a bit wrong and taught him bits are painful.

That can be untaught, if desired. Bandit arrived here slamming on the brakes if I lifted the reins with a bit in his mouth. It took time to get his trust. He doesn't mind riding with contact now. I sometimes do so just because he sometimes seems to enjoy it - regardless of what Dr Cook says. I don't make a habit of riding with constant contact, but I can understand how some horses would flourish that way.

The only reason I seriously think about bitless with Bandit is because he has an odd shaped mouth.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

All spooks are not fear based, and we have been into that subject a lot, before, concerning the different types of spooks.
Larry Trocha has some good videos on the different types of spooks
All bolts are also not fear based, as some horses use that bolt, when they would rather not go where asked
It is this important to recognize whether a spook is fear based or not. 
Horses are not stupid, and learn associations that give them rewards, not making any moral judgments doing so, and thus the concept that you train a horse each and every time you ride him, intended or not, either for the good or the bad
For a horse that has learned to use spooking to his advantage, same as halter pulling, the first incident is based on a true fear reaction, with the horse, in case of that spook, being rewarded, put away for the day, not asked to go on, or the horse that halter pulls, learning that he can break free, whenever he does not wish to stand tied
Thus, in a true fear spook, you just go with the horse, proceed on as if nothing happened, BUT, you do correct any attempt to add bolting, bucking, spinning around, tot hat spook
Anyway, we are back on old ground, straying from the original topic.
For the most part, I consider bittless a 'kindergarten stage, but where you can go back to anytime, or stay there, purely on personal choice.
A horse that is very light, through correct training, just packing a bit, has less constant pressure then most horses ridden bittless, and a good bridle horse is very content , packing that bit, has he has learned to trust the rider's hands, and that is key.
I admit that more damage can be done by incorrect use of a bit, then most times with a bittless devise, but in the right hands, correct training, a bit will give a much greater degree of finesse and communication
Thus, if the rider does not have an independent seat, does not use bits for communication, versus physical pressure, the horse is much better off, ridden bittless, as it allows for more human error, in most cases


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I did not intend to suggest in anyway that you developed a hard mouth in Bandit, I was just questioning his past.

Hondo went just as well in a bit. A snaffle. Couldn't really tell any difference, except he hindered the installation of a bit and helped with the installation of any head gear without a bit.

If bits do not produce uncomfortable sensations in their application, I'd be curious to know why so many people think a horse is more responsive to a bit that Cook's and why they think a horse will run through a Cook's and not a bit, curb, snaffle, curbed snaffle (hello smilie, or otherwise.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> All spooks are not fear based


Name one, just one true spook that is not fear based.

SPOOK



verb
1.frighten; unnerve.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> I did not intend to suggest in anyway that you developed a hard mouth in Bandit, I was just questioning his past.
> 
> Hondo went just as well in a bit. A snaffle. Couldn't really tell any difference, except he hindered the installation of a bit and helped with the installation of any head gear without a bit.
> 
> If bits do not produce uncomfortable sensations in their application, I'd be curious to know why so many people think a horse is more responsive to a bit that Cook's and why they think a horse will run through a Cook's and not a bit, curb, snaffle, curbed snaffle (hello smilie, or otherwise.


Hi Hondo
First, I think that I did mention that horse can learn to run through anything, and that is not why I don't like the Dr Cook Bridle. Rather it is because of those cross under straps and the constant poll pressure, and I don't ride my more seasoned horses with bits because I need that bit for control, but rather I truly believe you have greater communication with a bit, more complete release, and that hroses ridden correctly in bits, like them, and even prefer them over many bittless type devises, esp those that exert constant poll pressure
Contrary to your horse, mine open their mouth to accept a bit, so perhaps you are partly dealing with past negative associations, left from how Hondo was ridden with abit, before you


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@SmilieI just don't get the poll pressure idea. Sure, if the reins are really being pulled, there is some. But how is this worse than gum pressure?

You say you have more control with a bit. Could you share in a few words exactly why you feel that is?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...If bits do not produce uncomfortable sensations in their application, I'd be curious to know why so many people think a horse is more responsive to a bit that Cook's and why they think a horse will run through a Cook's and not a bit, curb, snaffle, curbed snaffle (hello smilie, or otherwise.


1 - The bit normally rests on the tongue. When I put a bridle on, I can see them lift the bit with their tongue and they carry it. The tongue is obviously sensitive, so they can feel very light pressure or movement. That gives the bit an advantage in precision. You can communicate with a bit in greater detail.

I haven't used a genuine Dr Cook so I cannot speak to it. I rode for a few years in this setup, which obviously does not offer precision:








​ 

By analogy, which would make it easier to steer a person - a hand on the shoulder, or a hand on the belt?

And if you need to reassure the horse, a bit makes it easier to play with the reins a little and remind them you are with them. That is why my youngest prefers to trail ride Trooper in a bit - she can play with the reins and he simply joins his mind to her better than he does with any bitless we've tried.

I've ridden Bandit bitless and a bit gets his focus back to me with a wiggle, but I need to move his head from side to side to get his attention back in a sidepull.

2 - Stopping power. Bits are sometimes about communication. Sometimes they are about control. An experienced horse like Trooper, who doesn't get intoxicated with speed and rarely spooks, can easily handle being ridden on trails forever in almost any bitless setup.

Horses who spook and bolt lose their minds to varying degrees. I've never seen bandit spook and lose his awareness of where we are and what is around him. I've been on Mia many times when her mind dumped - usually for 5-15 seconds. A lady I once worked with gave up riding in her teens. Her horse spooked, and about a mile later literally ran face first into a brick wall. Killed the horse and broke 6-7 bones in the girl, who still has a scar on her arm.

If the horse's mind totally drops out that way, you are screwed. Jumping off at 35 mph might be smart.

Most do not do that, or there would be very few old riders.

Based on my experiences with Mia, I think you can sometimes 'shock' a horse back into reality. The time I used a Pulley Rein to stop her from running off into the desert at full speed, I don't think it was pain that stopped her. I think the pain shocked her and broke her train of thought out of the "must run fast" cycle it was stuck in. Of course, there is no way to prove this. But I have slapped my own leg with a whip, and had the noise alone refocus my horse.

If a bit or Dr Cook's or any tool is misused, the horse can learn to run thru it. That was the point Tom Roberts was making: "And there isn't any doubt: if jumping up didn't stop the pain, you would try doing something else. So, too, eventually, does the horse." You can teach a horse to run thru any bit.

But used properly, a bit is a bigger obstacle for the horse to run through. 

I don't view that as a bad thing, but I've spent some years riding a very reactive mare who had no understanding of the dangers offered by the Sonoran Desert. Hondo may be trustworthy. Mia was not, and never was going to be unless I could let her spend a few weeks living in the desert - or restricted all of our riding to an arena. That is why she is now a broodmare, and her riding is in the open country of NE AZ. And time roaming thousands of acres with a genuine herd may have taught her things I never could.

I guess I say a horse is easier to control in a bit than bitless because I've done a bunch of both with 4 horses, and 4 of 4 were easier to control and safer to ride with a bit. I don't see how a study would change my mind when I've ridden hundreds of times both ways. I fully understand that bitless forever will work for some horses and some riding. 

But not all. And I see no signs my horses resent bits. Not even the Dreaded Tom Thumb.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Name one, just one true spook that is not fear based...


 @Smilie has told me, and I agree, that there are "false spooks", where the horse is looking for an excuse instead of genuine, deep down fear. Bandit can "spook" pretty easily in the first 400 yards of riding. Go out for 2 hours, and it would take a heck of a lot to "spook" him when we are 1/4 mile from home!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@bsms It is so far entirely unclear to me what is meant by a person being able to communicate with more precision with a bit. I don't have a clue as to what can be communicated with a bit that can't be communicated with a Cook's.

I don't get the analogy. A more correct analogy might be a hand on the shoulder or a strap running across the shoulder and down to the opposite belt. Same deal. Pulling on the same shoulder.

As far as nervous and spooky on the first 1/4 mile or so, Hondo is almost always tense for the first 1/4 mile or so. I haven't quite figured out a theory for that. He sort of acts like I used to feel, "Is this ride going to turn out ok, am I going to make it back in one piece?". I'm sure that's not what he is thinking but he seems to be thinking something like that. And pretty soon he's ok. He has never been rewarded by going back for that so I do not believe he is up to anything conniving.

I'm sounding like a bitless Nazi but I'm really not.

I just try to understand the position of the anti-bitless nazi's out there. Not you or any of the regular group but they are out there.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> @SmilieI just don't get the poll pressure idea. Sure, if the reins are really being pulled, there is some. But how is this worse than gum pressure?
> 
> You say you have more control with a bit. Could you share in a few words exactly why you feel that is?


Again, note, i did not say more control, as I often would ride horses in camp, down to water, with just a halter, or out of the back pasture at home, long as i could find a stump. I also rode young horses in bosals, and still occasionally put one on my older horses.
If you can ride a horse as a three year old in a bosal, at shows, and out in the open, you sure can go back and ride that horse that way, even when the horse is up in the bridle
I prefer bosals, as that is what one uses w, western,if showing a young horse, and you wish to go bittless


What I believe I said, was more finesse.
In fact, I once took my three year old reining mare to a clinic, wearing a bosal, and the instructor told me to put a snaffle on, as I would get more done


Smilie is only about three here
I often showed her, Einstein and several others, as jr horses, in bosals


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> @bsms It is so far entirely unclear to me what is meant by a person being able to communicate with more precision with a bit. I don't have a clue as to what can be communicated with a bit that can't be communicated with a Cook's.
> 
> I don't get the analogy. A more correct analogy might be a hand on the shoulder or a strap running across the shoulder and down to the opposite belt. Same deal. Pulling on the same shoulder.
> 
> ...


Hondo, unless you show, you are not going to understand increased signal, finesse using a bit
Also, I am not a anti bittless Nazi-as we often started horses in halters, side pulls and bosals. I have no probelm if anyone choses to ride bittless, but I do have a problem when the bittless Nazis declare bits to be cruel, that bittless is always the best choice, and that bittless is kinder, more natural
I believe that any well trained horse should ride bittless, but I also believe the converse is true-that any well trained horse should also ride well in bit, mouth issues excluded
Here Smilie is riding with a bit-looks perfectly relaxed to me


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo, you can Argue with Larry Trocha and others, far as horses spooking for different reasons
In fact, I once found a link, where heart monitor were put on endurance hroses, to differentiate a 'pretend spook from areal fear spook.
The heart rate went up, in a true fear spook, but not in a fake spook


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo, you can argue with people like Larry Trocha on different spooks, or just ride enough different hroses






In fact, I once found an article where they used heart monitors on endurence horses, to help term a true fear spook, from a feigned spook'
Heart rates went up in the true fear spook, but not in the other one


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)




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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is a good article that looks at the pros and cons, of both bittless and bits. I think it has a pretty balanced view,and does point out that not all bittless devises are equal, any more then bits, with some mechanical hackamores, very severe
Whether you chose bits or bittless, do it for the right reasons

Pros and Cons of Bitless Bridles | Second opinion doctor


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Wow! Six posts in a row! You're in high form 

I carry an equine heart rate monitor in my pommel bag. I wear the wrist watch always for my current time piece.

I just may hook it up to Hondo before I leave and see what his heart rate is during his nervous leaving 1/4 mile. In reflecting on this I'm really leaning toward the idea that he may have memories of bad happenings on rides similar to how it was bothering me for a while. But the horses have better memories.

I bought he heart rate monitor to make sure I didn't push him too hard on long steep uphills. I can tell now and don't really need it for that but once in a while I strap it on.

About bit vs bitless:

I actually do not think I am skilled, experienced enough nor a good enough rider to use a bit.

I have read many places that a horse bolting from fear will run harder if pain from the bit is applied. I know in the past under exciting, scary, and confusing situations I have applied way too much tension on the reins as a means of staying aboard. If I had the riding skills of the lady riding the spook in the video, I would be safe with a bit. I've watched her hands and the reins and only once could I see any possible tension in the reins and maybe not then.

But I'm not near that skilled. And from day one I have been riding in a 5 x 6 mile area of very rugged terrain, solo with no cellular service. (i do carry a personal locator though) So if I hauled back on Hondo's bit when he was already running for his dear life, I could cost me my own.

Round pen and arena is one thing, but out hacking, I think a beginner such as I using a bit out on a hack where literally no one else ever goes is dangerous. OK, I'll not argue that perhaps I shouldn't be out there alone with a horse at all, but that said, I firmly believe a beginner such as myself is safer out there with a bitless. And probably a Cook's as it has less propensity to cause pain than many of the other bitless.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> @*bsms* It is so far entirely unclear to me what is meant by a person being able to communicate with more precision with a bit. ...


Can't speak to a Cook's since I've never owned one. I tried a cheap rope crossunder, but that is not a fair comparison.

The first time I encountered where a bit helped was with Trooper's balance in a turn. I don't mind a horse dropping in with his shoulder, unlike many. But he would tip his nose out, which is a sign he was off balance and compensating. The lady who broke Lilly and did so much for Trooper and Mia was giving my daughter lessons, and she suggested putting Trooper in a bit - she knew he understood them.

Put the bit in, then my daughter could tip his nose slightly in during the turn. That forced Trooper to adjust his body and he started turning more balanced. In a few weeks, he gave up trying or wanting to tip his nose out. He had learned to balance differently with input from the bit.

Can that issue be addressed bitless? Yes. When Bandit did that, I'd weigh my outside stirrup. That helped. Then I tried that PLUS the bit, and he quickly figured out what I was after. Once he felt it, he "knew" how to handle himself. I mostly believe in giving the horse balance problems and letting him figure it out himself, but a bit can help. Would a Cook's, or a better designed sidepull work? Don't know.

We kept Trooper in bits because he acted more confident in a bit. He wants to please his rider - an extremely willing horse - and he acts more relaxed in a bit. That tells me HE finds it simpler to understand.

Folks need to do what they think is best and decide what works for them, their horse and their riding. Lots of horses act pretty happy in bits, including curb bits and people riding with constant contact.








​ 











Hondo said:


> ...but out hacking, I think a beginner such as I using a bit out on a hack where literally no one else ever goes is dangerous...I firmly believe a beginner such as myself is safer out there with a bitless.


I'm sure I won't change your mind. Maybe on Hondo you are right. I tried both hundreds of times with Mia, and with Mia, you'd be wrong. You believe bits HURT horses. The ONLY time I've hurt a horse in a bit was when I did a Pulley Rein stop - and we NEEDED that stop! And both Mia and Bandit would tell me if I hurt them...two very opinionated and expressive horses!
​


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

(Speaking from dressage) When you need a horse to give a certain response and know the difference between a wiggle of a finger vs raising of the hand by 1/4" vs tighten of the shoulder, you need the bit to communicate that. It's a finer line of communication, a bitless creates too much noise to have that. The average rider out on a hack doesn't care about this but to do more it is important.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

ApuetsoT said:


> (Speaking from dressage) When you need a horse to give a certain response and know the difference between a wiggle of a finger vs raising of the hand by 1/4" vs tighten of the shoulder, you need the bit to communicate that. It's a finer line of communication, a bitless creates too much noise to have that. The average rider out on a hack doesn't care about this but to do more it is important.


Ahhh, now that computes. Henry Wynmalen said something about an advanced dressage rider needing all ten fingers. So I reckon some of that could carry over to the skilled hack rider as well.

Thanks!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Seen that spook video before, good rider, but timing is out the window
The time to have gotten control of her horse, was when her horse first reacted to that donkey, and it shows exactly what I mean by needing to use different techniques, as to when an object is stationary, and when one starts to come towards you
Soon as that horse had his attention drift tot hat donkey, she should have used some body control,(of course, you need to have those on BEFORE needing them in 
an emergency situation. She should have counter flexed that horse, and kept forward
She has very little, if any body control on that horse.
Watch the Trocha videos
I often have had cattle bounding up to the fence, riding down the road in spring, on young hroses that are not exposed to cattle, and that horse is not ready to ride out, JMO


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

As far as finesse goes with bitless or bits...I think I've ridden in almost every style of bitless. You can't really compare a bosal to many styles because it is one with the least ability for finesse. The noseband is one solid piece, so you can't influence different parts or change the pressure points easily. Horses can learn to go lightly in it, but finesse would come from other training and not from cues to the head. A mechanical hackamore is likewise not an instrument of finesse. Nor is a rope halter. A sidepull or scawbrig has more opportunity for finer cues, and a crossunder for some horses. With a sensitive horse, you can get as finely tuned cues with a bitless - as long as you train the cues. A horse with a noseband adjusted snugly around the nose as a sidepull can feel finger movement on the reins. 

Several years ago, @bsms said something I find very true, and it has stuck with me. He said that for some horses, getting excited is the equivalent of being in a loud environment like an airplane hanger. You might whisper to someone in a library, but need to shout to get them to hear you at a rock concert. So what is needed is sometimes based on the noise inside the horse's head. 

I find it similar to nurses in emergencies. Some have the ability to keep the noise in their head down. Others hear "code!" and immediately the noise in their head gets very loud so you have to get their attention, look them in the eye and almost shout to get them to hear you. They are not trying to ignore sounds and are doing their best, but they can't hear as well right now. 

Smilie will say it's the training, it's the rider, and more. That doesn't explain the differences I've seen with so many similar riders on similar horses needing different tack. For example, my friend I ride out with frequently. Her last horse was a giant OTTB that was very excitable. She rode him in a crossunder bitless, had great finesse with it and he'd gallop full out very fast and seem excited. Yet she'd give him a touch at the end of his run and he'd respond immediately and softly. 
She now rides a little smaller OTTB mare. Also excitable. This horse would seem similar outwardly, has the same rider and similar training. But this mare goes in an eggbutt copper roller snaffle and sometimes does not "hear" cues to stop. She has talked about bitting up and would not feel safe in a bitless.

I also have two excitable Arab mares. With Amore, the strongest bit I ever put in was a double jointed snaffle. My worries were about ever getting too strong or not releasing contact fast enough. This is a horse that would run from the pain of a bit rather than responding to the increased pressure. She graduated to a sidepull and went happily in it. Same rider, slightly different excitable Arab and I have Halla in a curb bit and she still pulls in it sometimes. She does not run from the bit, but rather requires enough incentive from one to stop. 

Like with the nurses: for some, if you get too loud they will hear you even less and it will increase the noise in their head. You have to focus them and get quieter. This is like a horse that will do better when the bit is not too strong or painful. 
Some keep an innate quietness in their head no matter what is going on. These are like horses that can be ridden bitless anywhere. 
Others will get loud in their head and the only solution is to get loud enough that they can hear you. These are like the horses that need a stronger bit to stop.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

For me, @ApuetsoT and @gottatrot almost have put a wrap on the subject.

That said, I have on occasion yelled at Hondo with the Cook's by going to two hands and seesawing or applying alternate tension on the reins. Didn't ever really calm him but got his attention as in, "Oh, you're still back there?". Seems to always take a while to filter the excited chemicals out of his body. Does mine too.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I'll clarify that I am not talking just about the ability to stop, turn, or even bend a horse bitless. I'm referring more to subtle jowl flexion, or positioning for a lateral, or half halting a single leg, or influencing the shoulder, ect. Subtle things that are required to advance in Dressage. You might be able to get it bitless, but its a whole lot clearer with a bit.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

ApuetsoT said:


> I'll clarify that I am not talking just about the ability to stop, turn, or even bend a horse bitless. I'm referring more to subtle jowl flexion, or positioning for a lateral, or half halting a single leg, or influencing the shoulder, ect. Subtle things that are required to advance in Dressage. You might be able to get it bitless, but its a whole lot clearer with a bit.


Yep, I got that when you described a bitless as too noisy. The noisiness of the bitless made perfect sense to me, for the finer points of behavior which I will likely never pursue.

But Henry Wynmalen's book on Dressage has the approach plus the nuts and bolts to training that I intend to follow with a halter broke 5 YO baby boy that I think would curl up in your lap and lick your face if he could.

Dragon's becoming an experience I would not want to have missed. But since he will never be in Dressage, I do intend to train him in a Cook's when we get past the halter.

Oops, I drifted off topic a little.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Having ridden horses of various breedings, esp in the beginning, I do not negate individual temperament being a factor, along with training
There of course, is also the trust,built over years, riding one horse, that is also a factor
There is an art to using a bosal correctly, and I'll be the first to admit I like a snaffle better, for training young horses, and then easy to ride them in a bosal, but I'm no Les Vogt !

Perhaps, watching this video, will show how the bosal is used, in creating a bridle horse, with the foundation laid, alternating riding with a snaffle and a bosal, before going to the double reins. It is a part of a tool in creating a spade bit horse, and not an entity onto itself. The finesse is created by alternating with the bosal and the snaffle,, and not just using it as some sort of end point bittless brilde. It requires more experience to use correctly then something like a sidepull or bittless bridle


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yup, and that old favorite here, Buck B, creates a brilde horse, using the two rein stage. Not les Vogts' league, but also follows Vaquero tradition
Not in les'league, but added it, as Buck comes up so often in NH discussions


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Did I understand Les to say the old time cowboys carried a snaffle when riding with a leverage bit and changed it out when they needed to do some hard cattle gathering?

On Buck. I just don't understand why horses are taught to carry their heads way back like that. I've never seen a horse do that naturally and it doesn't look comfortable and just looks like it would interfere with his natural balance. I know it's part and parcel to dressage but I just don't like it. Maybe I don't understand it. Sure looks strange with a cowboy doing it.

My idea is that I don't really want to teach a horse how to do anything he doesn't already know how to do but just do it willingly and happily when I ask. I have always preferred to keep my dogs training to the bare minimum necessary and I guess I look at the horse the same way.

I guess it's a case of different strokes for different folks?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have mentioned William a TB that use to come to me to be got fit for jump racing. He was the spookiest horse ever! Even a butterfly could set him off. He missed nothing. 

I came to the conclusion that he was looking for a reaction from the rider. I never allowed him to get anything more than 90 degrees from the original direction, he never ever got into hooking off with me, not because it was a thing he didn't do but because he never got the chance.

No matter what his reaction was I never got flustered, I would verbally cuss him, turn him back on himself and give him a good boot. The forst six weeks were pretty dramatic but after that I had him out for a good two hours and he didn't do any major spooks at all. 

The rider with the horse spooking at the donkey hadn't a clue. She was leaning forward all the time. Her legs way to far back and was allowing the horse to turn whichever way it wanted. I agree with Smilie in that she should have been more ready when the donkey started to approach and the horse tensed up.

One thing I have found is that if the horse really respects the rider and it does go to spook and the rider corrects quickly, that the animal will be confident in the order to face Old Nick and all his demons.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I just re-watched the video. It looked to me at first there was some concern about the donkey, stopped looked, and the horse seemed ok and was moving out fine. The difficulty seemed to start when the donkey began approaching the fence. That was too much for the already slightly suspicious horse.

So I believe the lady may have relaxed a little when the horse seemed to be moving on ahead fine.

I don't understand why her legs are seen as too far back. I have no idea where they are "supposed" to be under those conditions but it did/does appear that she kept her balance very well, didn't use the reins for staying on, and just calmly rode out the spook.

I made the slow motion version that I posted. The regular long version shows her riding back and forth in front of and even up to the donkey as a desensitization maneuver. Another lady in the group rode up to the donkey first.

But whatever, that video played a large part in me getting my confidence back in riding out Hondo's spooks.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Ha ha on the butterfly. Hondo and I had a "butterfly incident". 

There was a strange trailer in HIS field that was worrying him. I began expertly counter flexing him back and forth past the trailer being careful not to overwhelm him with more fear than he could manage.

Then, I swear, this itsy bitsy teeny weeny yellow polka-dot butterfly arose from a clump of grass. That was just too much. He wheeled and I believe did a huge leap before taking off.

Fortunately I had one hand firmly on the pommel from his nervousness and stayed mounted. I felt a sharp pain in my lower back when I believe he did the jump and the cantle hit my back. Was sore for two weeks or more.

Continued util he smelled and touched the trailer with his nose and all was well.

Today I would dismount, lead him to the trailer for his thorough inspection.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...I don't understand why her legs are seen as too far back. I have no idea where they are "supposed" to be under those conditions but it did/does appear that she kept her balance very well...


Screen captures showing beginning of spook, mid-spook with butt on ground, mid-spook with horse backing up fast, and seconds before "end of spook":








​
I'm sure not going to point fingers.



Hondo said:


> ...On Buck. I just don't understand why horses are taught to carry their heads way back like that.... and just looks like it would interfere with his natural balance...Sure looks strange with a cowboy doing it...









​
I don't know much about Buck. Even a nobody rider like me sometimes focuses on X to the exclusion of Y, at least for a given time. Wouldn't mean I like Y or won't address it later. But if Buck was wearing a Top Hat and Tails, lots of us would criticize. Since it is a cowboy hat and chaps, it is OK. Joking, of course, but there is some truth in the joke.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Buck is training in the old Vaquero tradition, or trying to, although he does not have the expertise like someone like les Vogt, who is accepted as being one of the top hackamore reinsman today, in the development of Bridle horse
I merely posted Buck, because in numerous discussions on kinder ways, new era of horsemanship, Buck always comes up as a reference, and that his 'precieved kinder way', does not exclude some more 'classic old California Vaquero training

Back tot hat spook video. Very often here, the idea is posted, that if ahorse is concerned about an object, you just let him sit there and look at it, versus taking some body control, and keeping forward. That works, unless that object of concern pushes past the point of flight space for the hrose

That girl should have started riding actively, the minute her horse showed concern, which for me, means to ask for the face, keep forward, with some leg yielding.
Obvious direction that horse is going to try and spook, is away from that donkey. If you have shoulder control on your horse, and on the rest of his body, you can arch ribs towards donkey,slightly, head counter flexed slightly, keep forward, most of all. Only place the horse can then spook is towards that donkey.
She also could have ridden an angle past it, in that obviously open field, while keeping forward


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> y.
> She also could have ridden an angle past it, in that obviously open field, while keeping forward


Monday morning quarterbacking is easy to do, but in reality no one can say for certain that anything could have been done to keep that horse from semi blowing up when that donkey started heading towards the fence. Don't know the horse, don't know the rider.

I happen to be a proponent of letting Hondo stop and look. Seems to work well for him and I think he appreciates my attention as well. He has never ever spooked or failed to ride on well after looking except once he continued to insist to me there was something dangerous that I was not seeing. In that situation I dismounted and led both him and Rimmey,, who was being ponyed, for 300 feet or so until he seemed relaxed that all was well, mounted and rode on no problems.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've had quite a few horses that will fake a spook and then bolt to avoid work/go back to their barn/buddies
Never underestimate the smartness of a horse!!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...Very often here, the idea is posted, that if ahorse is concerned about an object, you just let him sit there and look at it, versus taking some body control, and keeping forward...If you have shoulder control on your horse, and on the rest of his body...


Not sure many have ever posted to just let him sit there and stare. It can work, but it can also raise the horse's tension.

I do object to "body control" because I've ridden horses who will NEVER give you "body control". I've whipped a horse's rump with a heavy leather whip - and had the horse fly backwards. There are horses smart enough to know they have feet on the ground and you do not.

There are also horses like Bandit, whose previous rider COULD push him past things - yet he arrived here afraid of just about everything, and his reaction was the reaction of a trapped horse - spinning, bucking, fleeing. Just because a horse CAN be pushed past something is no promise the horse has accepted the idea the thing wasn't scary. A horse who obeys because you are the scariest thing he knows can be a powder keg waiting to go off.

I don't feel free to criticize Buck based on the video, and I don't see any reason to criticize the lady either. There was a time Bandit would act like that. He never slipped on to his butt, but he was known to sometimes add some bucks, so call it even.

It took time to build trust, and sometimes you have to press into scary things in order to earn that trust. We've done it, and on the far side Bandit's becoming a confident horse. But it hasn't always been good looking. And we haven't "arrived" - and maybe never will. He's a smart horse with strong instincts of self-preservation. He'll NEVER be an "Anything you say, Boss!" horse.

"_If you have shoulder control on your horse, and on the rest of his body, you can arch ribs towards donkey,slightly, head counter flexed slightly, keep forward, most of all. * Only place the horse can then spook is towards that donkey*._"

I gather you've never met a horse who can spin. Of course, with "body control", they cannot, since you control the body. But just as any horse can blow thru any bit if they want to enough, a horse can blow thru 'body control' if he wants to bad enough. A horse who thinks "I can only spook forward" isn't a very bright horse...maybe one of those "3000 repetitions" horses.

And do bits help? Depends on the horse. And the rider. If she had been using a harsh bit and had balanced on the reins, she would have been better off in a sidepull. As it was...she looked fine.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Monday morning quarterbacking is easy to do, but in reality no one can say for certain that anything could have been done to keep that horse from semi blowing up when that donkey started heading towards the fence. Don't know the horse, don't know the rider.
> 
> I happen to be a proponent of letting Hondo stop and look. Seems to work well for him and I think he appreciates my attention as well. He has never ever spooked or failed to ride on well after looking except once he continued to insist to me there was something dangerous that I was not seeing. In that situation I dismounted and led both him and Rimmey,, who was being ponyed, for 300 feet or so until he seemed relaxed that all was well, mounted and rode on no problems.


Again, was he spooking/concerned at something ahead that was not advancing towards him? Makes a huge difference.

Yes, another option for her, would have been to dismount and led her horse by that donkey
We have often run into feral hroses, ect, out west, or deer ahead on the trail, and,yes, if not sure as to what is rustling in the bush, stopping to let both you and and the horse assess as to what it is, often works.
It does not work, when some creature that the horse is not sure off, advances towards you. The horse then goes into flight mode, and you need to have the tools to modify that flight reaction, or get off.
So, unless you have encountered an animal the horse is not sure of, like a moose or donkey or whatever, actually come towards you, you really have no idea if Hondo would continue to just stand there, as the object of his fear approaches


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The trailer in the incident I posted about had fuel for the helicopter refueling during roundup.

The next day I was on the ground with the cattle while the helicopter was working the cattle. When we got to the wing fences for the corral some of the cattle were not cooperating with the helicopter. I worked some within 30 feet or less of the prop wash just overhead. It finally got to be a little much and I moved out until they backed off and waved me on in and finished penning the last few.

One of the ranch owners was in the helicopter and had ran out of video but said that Hondo was doing some very very fancy footwork and asked if I would be interested in doing an over. I said no way.

But they were impressed how I handled Hondo under those circumstances with just a Cook's that they of course frown on. And I was told my seat looked very solid and never loose, which made my chest swell a bit of course.

I would not be interested in doing an over for $100 but I'd give $100 for a video of the one I did do.

When we unloaded Hondo at my place he raised his head and looked back in the direction of the corral, now 1 1/2 miles away. They laughed and said he's still looking for that D****helicopter. And I think he was.

Anyhow, their worry's about me being able to handle Hondo under most situations has pretty well subsided.

BTW, the person in the helicopter that ran out of video is the person that gave Hondo to me and said he was dangerous to ride over a walk. A daughter on the ground has only been dumped by one horse on the ranch in her 35 years here.

I'll give you one guess who dumped her.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Please dismiss anything I say here that it is repetitive from my previous comments.

First, my impression is that the Spanish Vaqueros basically invented (in the last 500 years) the idea of "bitless". The point wasn't to never use a bit, it was to not cause a young horse to become sour to the bit, wolf teeth and all. The end result was the expectation of a "Bridle Horse", which is a a finely tuned horse with a Spade Bit and Rommel Reins. The making of one of these horses is really inspiring to read about.


I think the root or bits being considered cruel is how they are used. If you use a bites like a steering wheel, and expect to yank and pull on it for whatever you want the horse to do, then yes it is an instrument of potential cruelty.

If used as a signal, then no. 

There is a great story of Sheila Varian using fishing line (monofilament) as rein chains on her Rommel Reins and Spade Bit in the 1960s and winning the Reined Cow Horse at Salinas (which was a huge deal at the time). She was making a point, with supreme confidence, that her horses were light and responsive. 

You aren't going to get that with a bit, or "bitless" if your posture is riding "on the bit", balancing on the horse's mouth. In higher levels of Western style riding, we want a slack rein. The communication is a lift of a rein, a touch of a leg, not cranking down on a bit. It makes a world of difference when speaking of whether bits are good or bad. 

Horse terminology can mean different things in different areas, hopefully that wasn't confusing.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't think if a white ghost donkey from hell appeared and started floating ominously toward us that I'd try to give a horse only one option to escape which would be toward the donkey. The rider handled things well enough, and I don't think keeping the horse from creating that space needed to feel safe would be helpful. My reaction would be to move out into the field until the horse had enough space to feel safe to pass the donkey without the amount of tension that felt possibly explosive. Otherwise I'd be worried a butterfly might show up at the wrong time and get me bucked off. 

The degree of tension in the horse is what dictates how much space I give the scary object. I always want the horse to feel he can move and get away, but keeping him within a distance that he can tolerate. I don't care if he faces the object. We think about sight from the perspective of facing something head on. Horses see that object whether it's on their side or behind them, they have a great field of vision. The only thing that facing the object does is make the horse feel he has to do more to get away from it, if necessary. Which can create more tension. What I don't do is spin the horse away from the object and open up a loose rein, otherwise the horse might get the wrong idea and gallop off. But if the horse spins away, I'll let him trot away for a few steps until I feel the tension ease, and then try to go back along the way we were originally travelling. 

The next time we came past the donkey, I'd start farther out in the field and go by where the horse was only mildly worried. After the horse figured out the donkey was only a critter, we'd end up back on the road again, maybe a ride or three later.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

This is gonna be long, and could get me slapped or banned, but what the hell.

Whipping a horse is not body control. If you have to whip then you need something.....else. Because body control is made by repetition. And I know you have made fun at the 3000 reps, bsms, of repetition. How many times (reps) have you had to do to get Bandit past the freaking trash cans in your neighborhood? Is that not reps? If you had put that many reps into shoulder control or hind end control, would it have taken so many trips past the freaking trash cans? In fact, aren't you having issues with the trash cans?

Body control is a condition response to stimuli. Horse does A, I counter that with B, horse listens to B because of a conditioned response. Isn't that how we train a horse to walking with a halter and a lead rope? Y'all ever train a foal to lead? Repetition, repetition , repetition. The foal doesn't come out of the womb knowing **** about leading.

How does one potty train a two year old....repetition and consistency. Toddlers don't just wake up one day and say, ' I am tired of this wet soggy stinky diaper, I am gonna use the potty!' 

I hate when I change OP systems on my computer, because, through REPS, I have be reconditioned to do X to get the Z response I want. When I do X and do not get the Z response, I get ****ED, just like a horse who is not getting things because of a riders lack of reps and consistency and training.

Horses like reps, because reps equal consistency. And horses like consistency.

Without consistency the horse tests daily. Mine does. Small little, no one else notices but me, tests. I am grooming him after breakfast. I ground tie in the aisle. He stands, I am grooming. He will lean forward. If I let him do this leaning forward thing, the next moment he is moving a foot. If I dont correct at this point, the other foot is moving. If I don't correct the lean, the first foot moving, the second foot moving, before I know it he would be walking off towards the pasture. So every now and then, to make sure I am listening to HIM, my arab will try the lean forward thingy......once, because I let him know that isn't an option by calmly leaning him back.

Body control starts in the aisle of the barn on the end of a lead role. He leans, I calmly make him lean back. He tries to lean and move a foot, I calmly have him move his foot back to where it was and make him lean back. That, gentlemen, is the first step, the first building block in body control.

Bsms, my horse would love to drop the left shoulder and spin left......hard.....at anything he doesn't want to deal with.....boulders with moss, purple flowers, the cut raw end of a tree that has been cleared from the trail, or other riders heading in the opposite direction ...he wants to race them.....After thousands of reps I can block his dropping shoulder and spinning left, and he listens without being whipped. Imagine that! A horse listening to cues due to ....gasp.......training (reps) and training (reps), and training (reps).

As for Buck and riding two handed....reins to the bit, and reins to the bosal. I can't ride that sweet. I am not going to critize the fact the horse horse is BTV in the one snap shot that was taken from the video and posted. If y'all can't see what the man does when the horse goes BTV with his hands, legs, body, well y'all need more instruction. Don't critize someone better than you especially with something you have never tried.

The point Hondo, isn't bits are cruel and bitless isn't. All forms of bridles work on pressure and release of said pressure. Some on the mouth, some on the poll, some on the nose, some on the jaw, and some on all of the above. One is not superior to the other or kinder than the other. If a horse has been trained correctly to respond to a bit it is no different than me wearing a bra or you a jock strap. You know it is there, but it isnt a biggie. Itchy maybe ( in the case of a bra) but certainly not cruel.

I want my horse to be able to ride in the snaffle OR the bosal so if I ever end up in a wheel chair and can no longer take care of them, I have added 'stuff' to my horse's 'resume'. They are willing ride in either, they can ride in a show environment as well as out on the trail, whether the trail is wooded or open. They can be ridden in an urban environment or off the grid. All this training with the bit, and without a bit, makes him more marketable to a good rider and not some ****ed up hack.

Don't over analyze everything. Causes ulcers and then you will be spending $$$$$ on Zantac and aloe vera juice.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Great post above!
Yes, body control is conditioned response, which is created BEFORE you need to use it.
Sure, you can develop trust, as your example of Hondo and the helicoptor, and mine, where \i actually asked my horse to charge a bull moose, but that does not negate having conditioned response to legs, reins, just like to a halter
I have to disagree with you, Trottin, as that girl doing everything possible. That horse never, never should have gotten a chance to spin away,run backwards, and she is lucky, riding a horse without any body control on it, with that bit, or is it a mechanical hack, hard to tell, except she has leverage, and very lucky she did not pull that horse over on to herself, although she came close!
Sorry, poor riding/training, JMO!


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> This is gonna be long, and could get me slapped or banned, but what the hell.
> 
> Whipping a horse is not body control. If you have to whip then you need something.....else. Because body control is made by repetition. And I know you have made fun at the 3000 reps, bsms, of repetition. How many times (reps) have you had to do to get Bandit past the freaking trash cans in your neighborhood? Is that not reps? If you had put that many reps into shoulder control or hind end control, would it have taken so many trips past the freaking trash cans? In fact, aren't you having issues with the trash cans?
> 
> ...


This is absolutely amazing ^^


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Trottin, I think I mentioned before, riding my reining mare down the road, on pavement, coming across a stud donkey. She was fine, until he came towards us, braying. I then got her in the ditch, as she has slide plates on, had that body control 'discussion', and then rode on.
Nope, sorry, and a great example where body control, along with trust, telling the hrose, 'listen up, I am telling you that animal is of no danger, and the horse believing in that leadership, with body control, giving the slight lapse in time, needed to get that horse';s mind back on you-his leader on his back!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@jgnmoose I'm beginning to sort of get it on the finesse. Good example with the turn signals. Les Vogt in the video which I watched said the reins to the leverage bit should never actually be pulled. He said one was to only "insinuate" with the reins. The word insinuate really spelled it out to me.

BUT, a big BUT, I still do not feel qualified to have my hands on those reins. I would not want something in Hondo's mouth that I could very easily unintentionally cause him harm.

I believe the rider using the equipment MUST be as advanced or more than the horse wearing it. And that's very often not the case. In the end, that's my only reservation. Other than that, if the horse likes it and the rider is skilled, then I rest.

@Smilie Heck if you can't work a donkey on pavement with slide plates me thinks you must need to work on body control :rofl: (i'm just playin'-devil made me)


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

BTW, I didn't post the original video on the donkey. Before the end in the original, the lady rode past the donkey twice and then turned around and rode right up to it. Horse was totally calm and ok.

I wonder why it sometimes seems so much easier to find fault and criticize than it is to look for and find positives and praise. Seems to sometimes be a part of human nature and one that I admittedly struggle with.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Hondo said:


> @jgnmoose I'm beginning to sort of get it on the finesse. Good example with the turn signals. Les Vogt in the video which I watched said the reins to the leverage bit should never actually be pulled. He said one was to only "insinuate" with the reins. The word insinuate really spelled it out to me.
> 
> BUT, a big BUT, I still do not feel qualified to have my hands on those reins. I would not want something in Hondo's mouth that I could very easily unintentionally cause him harm.
> 
> ...


All of this, and exactly. It is a kind of magic that we can only hope to be good enough at as the real deal horseman. 

My favorite Mare is hard headed and not easy to catch. Herd bound and not really the kind of horse you cling to, petting won't get you any favors. When things are going good in the Team Penning or a friends place, you can tell she enjoys it and she is doing something she loves. I am reminded of Martin Black's remark that I hope I am not misquoting. "Your job is to get out of her way and just ride enough to not embarrass her and me".

I was taught to bridle, to really put that horse in frame. I'm not going to question that, at the same time a horse that is free'd up to do real work doesn't carry themselves that way. It will probably take me a few decades to form a respectable opinion on what makes the two nothing alike.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> ...Whipping a horse is not body control. If you have to whip then you need something.....else. Because body control is made by repetition. And I know you have made fun at the 3000 reps, bsms, of repetition. How many times (reps) have you had to do to get Bandit past the freaking trash cans in your neighborhood? Is that not reps? If you had put that many reps into shoulder control or hind end control, would it have taken so many trips past the freaking trash cans? In fact, aren't you having issues with the trash cans?
> 
> Body control is a condition response to stimuli. Horse does A, I counter that with B, horse listens to B because of a conditioned response...


Body control is something you can supposedly get in an arena. After all, you can do thousands of right turns, left turns, stops and starts in an arena. But what happens when you leave the arena? Will thousands of turns = a conditioned response that controls the horse?

So you teach "body control" thru many repetitions in the arena. Now you go here, and ride your horse up the ramp and dive into the water - because you control the horse:

















​ 

https://equineink.com/2008/12/16/dont-try-this-at-home-the-diving-horses-of-atlantic-city/
​ Well, probably not. Most horses will take "control" back. I don't know how many thousands of stops and turns Mia & I did in the arena, but they didn't count for squat when she became scared.

Perhaps I'm the only person who has had a horse who could be "controlled" with my pinkie finger in an arena, but who was a mess when I first started riding her out into the real world. She would stop "with seat" in the arena. My oldest daughter described her as telepathic. Got her to where she would not race in the arena - after all, who REALLY wants to run fast and go nowhere?

But get her outside the arena, and suddenly that "body control" didn't do squat. Well, it did some. It kept me in the fight, when she decided to fight. But to teach her to give up her fears, what WORKED for her was slack reins. Not control, but letting her have a voice.

Shortly after I swapped her for Bandit, and she went off to be a brood mare, I realized I could get Bandit past things he remained afraid of. Most of the time. And his previous owner said to just push him past. He'd "get feisty", but if I could win, he'd go on.

But I also noticed that if I took the time to TEACH him X was not scary, he would go by without the flick of an ear. And I wanted a calm and confident horse, not a scared but obedient one. That was when after 7 years of riding, something occurred to me that no one else seemed to talk about - that MAYBE a horse learns trust the way a human does, by learning someone has good judgment that proves right. What an amazing concept - that horses learn trust from a rider showing them the rider is smart and trustworthy. Not from round penning them. Not from doing 10,000 repetitions in the arena and removing their free will. But from being proven RIGHT.

At the time, @*Smilie* told me I'd make Bandit spookier. She wasn't the only one. A number of experienced riders told me I'd be rewarding fear by honoring it, and my horse would become uncontrollable. But the proof is in the pudding.

The horse who used to explode doesn't. I went from dismounting 3-5 times a ride to having done it twice, IIRC, in the last 3 months. He's going past trailers and trash cans and people on roofs. Not because I control him, but because he understands. And increasingly, he goes past things as soon as I tell him I've got it and it is safe. Not 100%, but vastly more often than he did before. The trend is strongly my friend.

Instead of turning him into a spook monster, he's becoming a confident and trusting horse - something he most definitely was NOT 18 months ago. And when he decides to do something WITH me, I don't have to worry about him exploding halfway, or trying to run away at the halfway mark. Once WE are doing it, I have an extremely strong team mate.

"_A horse listening to cues due to ....gasp.......training (reps) and training (reps), and training (reps)._"

You cannot bypass the mind of a horse via repetitions. If you could, you could teach a horse in the arena and then ride him ANYWHERE, first time - big city, burning building, off ramps into a 60' dive - all based on your repetitions and "body control" you gained in the arena.

Why do some top jumpers use a curb bit, or a harsher bit? Because when their horse gets excited, the thousands of repetitions they've done fail to control their horse. *No one ever controls the body of the horse. You do not replace the horse's brain.* You ASK. You can "Ask, Tell, Demand" - and if the horse feels threatened enough, scared enough, excited enough, he'll give you the Middle Hoof Salute and ignore your demand. Because he is a living creature.

How much training and exposure and trust-building - of the real kind, not the round pen kind - depends on the horse and how it has been used. Bandit's previous owner seems to have been able to win the fights and push him past things (control his body), and that just drilled fear into Bandit's brain. It didn't make him calmer or more confident. He obeyed, but he did not believe. We've been working our way out of that hole. A hole dug by a good guy who believed in body control.

And we've been climbing out, not by bypassing my horse's mind, but by engaging it. Not by repeating cues until he ceases thinking, but by encouraging thought. And it is working. And as has often happened to me in the past, what experienced riders told me would happen HAS NOT.

"_As for Buck and riding two handed...Don't critize someone better than you especially with something you have never tried._"

Guess you didn't notice I defended Buck: "_Even a nobody rider like me sometimes focuses on X to the exclusion of Y, at least for a given time. Wouldn't mean I like Y or won't address it later._"


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

THIS: And I wanted a calm and confident horse, not a scared but obedient one.

AND THIS: You cannot bypass the mind of a horse via repetitions.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

BSMS when I read your post I was actually a bit disappointed because the way it came across was that by doing repetitions and by teaching a horse body control in an arena we are as riders effectively shutting down their voice ? 

Repitions aren't about shutting a horses mind down it's about making sure the horse understands the cue and knows it's job. Just because you do 3000 repitions of something doesn't mean you aren't engaging the horses mind. Transitions transitions transitions are apart of teaching a horse to be responsive and to go upwards and downwards from seat/leg/voice whatever you want, people do thousands of them it doesn't mean the horse is shut down, it means they learn by doing.



In my opinion if you take your horse out and it spooks constantly at the same thing all the time every time you go out it doesn't respect or trust you enough in the first place it's got nothing to do with working in an arena because if you can't transfer the work you do in the arena to the outside world then you haven't done it right.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> @jgnmoose I'm beginning to sort of get it on the finesse. Good example with the turn signals. Les Vogt in the video which I watched said the reins to the leverage bit should never actually be pulled. He said one was to only "insinuate" with the reins. The word insinuate really spelled it out to me.
> 
> BUT, a big BUT, I still do not feel qualified to have my hands on those reins. I would not want something in Hondo's mouth that I could very easily unintentionally cause him harm.
> 
> ...


Hey, Hondo, I think you know that even plain shoes are not the greatest on pavement,although I have ridden in enough parades, with shod horses
If you wish to take the head away, disengage hips, on pavement, with a horse shoed with slide plates, be my guest!. Myself, I will head to where I have some traction!
I agree that very few people should ever ride with a Spade bit, and only on a horse that is properly trained
I admit that I don't feel Confident in riding with a Spade, having never taken a horse through that program
I do feel perfectly okay, riding a horse I have brought through the snaffle bit/bosal stage correctly, in a curb, because I have done that, with many horses, over the years
I agree with those horsemen, who state that a horse should be able to perform any maneuver he ever will need to in life, in a snaffle or bosal, before he is ever moved on to a curb, and should be able to go back to that snaffle, or bosal, at any time. 
In fact, good western trainers, will tell you, that if they get a problem horse, or are teaching anew maneuver, they will go back to that snaffle
For you, bittless is an end point, and that is fine, asit works for what you do.
Bittless, to me, is a beginning point, where you use that bosal or snaffle, or both, alternating, to put basics on a horse, with that horse then graduating to a curb.
Perhaps, that is due in part to the fact that I also showed many of my horses, western,, where hroses 5 and older, are expected to being able to be shown one handed, with a curb
If you don't show, then many riders who happen to also ride in a western saddle, either stay in the snaffle bit stage, or choice to go bittless, and if that is your end point, comfort level, belief principle, then go for it!. Nothing wrong with it, but to assume, just because I prefer to ride a more finished horse, with a curb, on a loose rein, does not then mean it is because otherwise my horse would bolt, ect.
You might be surprised to discover, a horse correctly trained, might actually prefer just packing a curb, on a loose rein-as mine sure do!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> THIS: And I wanted a calm and confident horse, not a scared but obedient one.
> 
> AND THIS: You cannot bypass the mind of a horse via repetitions.


No, but you can get the mind of a horse BACK to you,when he has tuned you out, focused on some object of concern, using familiar body control exercises


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hondo said:


> THIS: And I wanted a calm and confident horse, not a scared but obedient one.
> 
> AND THIS: You cannot bypass the mind of a horse via repetitions.


But the latter leads to the first part of the former. The second part of the first statement is a transition to the first (hopefully anyway).

When I first got my horse Phin, his spook was a fast and hard spin and bolt away from the scary thing. He wasn't trying to unseat me, he was truly frightened. As he was new to me, I had not figured out his subtle signs of tension, but in some cases - like deer exploding out of the bushes beside us - there is no warning sign. That extreme reaction was unacceptable to me as it was unsafe for us both, so I started working on getting him to listen to my seat and leg cues under normal circumstances, such as bending around a tree on trail or sidepassing over a fallen branch (I have no arena unless you count the open hayfields).

With time, he got adept at listening to those cues and I got better about his tells that something was making him nervous. So the massive spook/bolts changed to spook/spin/halt.. then to spook and 1/4 spin.. then spook and take 2 steps sideways. We are now to the point that he will spook in place. Many, many things do not worry him any more (like killer political signs along the road or Horse Eating Mailboxes), so his confidence has definitely grown tremendously. But when a turkey fell out of a tree and landed on his neck as we were making our way down a steep single track trail (yes, really.. and that crazy stuff only happens to his poor horse), he was honestly terrified.. but he listened when I told him he was ok while applying leg to the side he was thinking about spinning to. And he stood there and let me remove the turkey from his mane. Then he stood there watching the stupid thing flail away. He was about a foot taller and his eyes were bugged out 3 inches.. but he stood. He was scared but obedient - and that sure as heck beats being terrified and not-obedient. Blindly bolting down that piece of trail would not have ended well.

It's not about bypassing the mind, it's about teaching a different response, which includes looking to the rider for guidance. The way I have found works best is training the response before the crazy thing happens, in the hope its remembered when shiitake does happen. I shudder to imagine what would have happened had that turkey fallen out of the tree when I first got him..


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

phantomhorse13 said:


> But when a turkey fell out of a tree and landed on his neck as we were making our way down a steep single track trail (yes, really.. and that crazy stuff only happens to his poor horse), he was honestly terrified.. but he listened when I told him he was ok while applying leg to the side he was thinking about spinning to. And he stood there and let me remove the turkey from his mane. Then he stood there watching the stupid thing flail away.
> 
> He was about a foot taller and his eyes were bugged out 3 inches.. but he stood. He was scared but obedient - and that sure as heck beats being terrified and not-obedient. Blindly bolting down that piece of trail would not have ended well.
> .



OMG....snort, guffaw.....the visual........:rofl:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Rainaisabelle said:


> ...Repitions aren't about shutting a horses mind down it's about making sure the horse understands the cue and knows it's job...
> 
> In my opinion if you take your horse out and it spooks constantly at the same thing all the time every time you go out it doesn't respect or trust you enough in the first place...


Doesn't take thousands of repetitions to teach a horse a cue. It took about 15 minutes to teach a curb bit to Mia standing next to her to start riding her at a walk in the arena. Second arena ride included trotting. Third included cantering. Then we left the arena, and the curb bit worked fine.

At the time, "experienced riders" told me all I would do is have a horse who would run through a curb. After I swapped Mia, after the fact, @*Smilie* told me good trainers would all have told me not to use a curb, but ride her more in the arena with a snaffle - to do enough repetitions to have "body control". But of course, at that point, she was FINE in a snaffle - IN THE ARENA. She'd listen to my pinkie and seat - IN THE ARENA. I could and did ride her in an English jump saddle and a crude rope sidepull, without problems - IN THE ARENA. She just did not get scared - IN THE ARENA.

I could not teach her to handle fear in a place where she never felt it (any more - she HAD at one time, and we worked through that). If she was going to learn to handle fear, she'd have to go somewhere that challenged her - and I'd need to be on her. Because at that point I could easily lead her for miles from the ground.

Trust? If I was on the ground, and Mia was scared, she would race to me, put her head against my chest, and tremble like a leaf until I took care of her. Happened many times. But then, she could clearly see me on the ground. Much harder to see me mounted and she could forget I was there.

And some things would just blow her mind. That was why, when she bolted, if we had room, the best way to handle it was to stay loose and call her name. When an ear flicked back, her mind had returned and I could stop her easily.

A big part of my problem was believing the "experienced riders". Just push her past things. Just act confident. Sing, or focus on something ahead. Control her. But every time I'd push her too far - perhaps encourage her too far is a better way of describing it - we'd go backwards. Sometimes physically, but always emotionally. I'd be using the bit and my legs and my seat and trying to control her, and while I COULD eventually get her to hold her ground...the fear would be stronger the next time. Not less. Worse.

Progress came when I read a book by Tom Roberts, who consistently gave advice that works for me better than anyone else. When I gave up trying to control her, and worked her in scary situations with slack reins, we began to make progress.

After I got Bandit, I took it further. Not only use slack reins, but try to teach him trust by EARNING it. Not by controlling him. By TEACHING him, and by creating a track record of being right again and again and again.

And again, "experienced riders" told me I would fail. That what I needed was to ride him in the arena for thousands of repetitions. Well, he did need a few hundred to realize I used a bit - but NOT as an emergency brake. We did enough arena work to get him comfortable with understanding the cues, and then we rode out. 

First I had to teach him to talk to me. His previous rider wasn't interested in his opinions, and horses don't talk to people who don't listen. So I had to listen closely, then respond to what he told me. And once he felt free to tell me he was afraid, I honored those fears - and we handled things differently based on his fear. I would block a bolt or spin and ignore a buck, but if he was willing to work with me, I'd work with him. I assumed he was being honest about his fears. Then we would work together to find a compromise we could both accept - and do it.

I didn't try to control him, other than to block a bolt, spin, or ignore a buck. I wasn't interested in control. I wanted understanding and trust. And I had to earn it.

It hasn't made him a spook monster, although I was told it would. He arrived with no trust in his rider's judgment. He had been TAUGHT that by his previous rider - a good and decent fellow who tried to follow Clinton Anderson. I think it backfired. Then again, Bandit is an uncommonly independent fellow. He has zero confidence in the judgment of other horses, too. But he is learning to trust me.

I doubt he'll ever walk through a burning building at my request. If I want to ride him off a cliff, I'm sure he'll refuse. All trust has limits. That is OK by me.

But the solution with Mia and Bandit - as proven by events - was NOT to ride them in an arena and do thousands of repetitions in a snaffle. They already KNEW the cues! They needed experience outside the arena, and trust earned outside the arena. You cannot train a trail horse by staying in the arena. And the proponents of "body control" told me to solve the problem in the arena - with more and more repetitions of cues they already knew.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

bsms said:


> Doesn't take thousands of repetitions to teach a horse a cue. It took about 15 minutes to teach a curb bit to Mia standing next to her to start riding her at a walk in the arena. Second arena ride included trotting. Third included cantering. Then we left the arena, and the curb bit worked fine.
> 
> At the time, "experienced riders" told me all I would do is have a horse who would run through a curb. After I swapped Mia, after the fact, @*Smilie* told me good trainers would all have told me not to use a curb, but ride her more in the arena with a snaffle - to do enough repetitions to have "body control". But of course, at that point, she was FINE in a snaffle - IN THE ARENA. She'd listen to my pinkie and seat - IN THE ARENA. I could and did ride her in an English jump saddle and a crude rope sidepull, without problems - IN THE ARENA. She just did not get scared - IN THE ARENA.
> 
> ...



I have 2 things left to say.


If your horses knew the cues and their job they wouldn't spook and do the same thing over and over every time you got on. Lessons would probably benefit you. 


As Albert Einstein said Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Rainaisabelle said:


> ...If your horses knew the cues and their job they wouldn't spook and do the same thing over and over every time you got on...


Ummm...they got better. Or did you MISS that?

And yes, horses who know cues backwards and forwards can still spook. And if you want them to stop spooking, you need to get out of the arena.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

bsms said:


> Ummm...they got better. Or did you MISS that?
> 
> And yes, horses who know cues backwards and forwards can still spook. And if you want them to stop spooking, you need to get out of the arena.


I guess I missed it, must be because every time I read one of your posts I get lost in the past and can't see the present. Have a fantastic day!


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

The world is my arena. But the training still starts on the end of a lead rope every time you pick it up.

Just because an animal, and I am including two legged here as well, is obedient to someone doesn't make that being a mindless drone. Case in point. I remember being terrified on my first day of kindergarten. Clinging to my moms legs, crying, scared to death. My mother told me calmly to let go and walk into the classroom. I was obedient and did as I was directed.

I didn't die, nor did I didn't turn into a mindless drone later in life. That first step made me confident later in life.

So I don't understand why some think having a horse that is obedient makes it scared and not calm?

Can that be explained?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> But the solution with Mia and Bandit - as proven by events - was NOT to ride them in an arena and do thousands of repetitions in a snaffle. They already KNEW the cues! They needed experience outside the arena, and trust earned outside the arena. You cannot train a trail horse by staying in the arena. And the proponents of "body control" told me to solve the problem in the arena - with more and more repetitions of cues they already knew.


Right, and this is also why I believe sometimes we need something stronger than a sidepull if a horse gets too freaked out to "hear" us in one. Because as @phantomhorse13 said, the horse has to learn that not bolting away or doing his natural response will end up safely and he won't be harmed. The opportunity to learn this may never come in if our equipment doesn't work for the horse, so he won't learn that no matter how many cues you teach him to respond to. This is why horses will sometimes buck or bolt until the rider finds a way to stop them and let the horse learn they don't need to put so much effort into getting away because they will survive regardless. We have to break the cycle to teach the horse that it will be OK.

I think it is this exposure to things that makes the horse learn not to spook or bolt, etc. I think even if the horse traveled our riding trails all alone without a rider, eventually he would teach himself that donkeys don't eat horses, and neither do butterflies or stumps hidden in the woods. After all, that's how feral horses learn what will harm them or won't. They certainly don't spook at everything they are exposed to each day. So do we really teach the horse to respond faithfully to every cue, or does he just begin to understand over time because he doesn't flee the scene and also doesn't die, all the variety of things on the world that aren't dangerous to horses? Which makes him far, far more likely to respond to our cues?

I used to believe 100% that it just required enough repetition to get a horse super responsive in every environment. People think the same thing about dogs. But there are dogs that you can drop with a hand signal from 100 yards as a deer is racing past their nose, and there are dogs that you cannot. It has to do with whether the incentive is stronger to follow the conditioned response or whether the animal's instincts are stronger. Both dogs will be far more likely to follow the command if it has been trained and practiced, but one dog will be far more likely to follow the command than the other. That will not change even if you add another 3,000 repetitions to each dog's training regimen.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

sarahfromsc said:


> So I don't understand why some think having a horse that is obedient makes it scared and not calm?
> 
> Can that be explained?


I don't think that many very obedient horses are scared, but I think horses that have been cowed into obedience usually are. I've met horses like this, that respond instantly to cues but are extremely anxious as they respond. They've been taught to jump before they think by riders that insist on immediate responses and punish if the cue isn't followed immediately and correctly. Some will literally cower if they choose the wrong response by reacting too fast, and then realize it afterward. 

But I also think many people see horses that are not obedient at a certain point in time and think they have not been well trained. Which is also often not the case. 
A horse I know that was under training with a professional eventing trainer for over ten years reared, spooked and ran through cues the first few times he was ridden on trails in the woods. That horse is one of the best trained horses I've ever been on. He will shift his weight onto his hind end just with a tiny weight shift from the rider. He will change leads if you think about it, and can collect or extend his trot or canter in tiny increments at your every whim. He was shown extensively and in the situations he was comfortable with he was a solid and dependable horse. 

You might see a horse barging away from a helpless rider on a trail and think the rider has not trained the horse, but in reality that horse might be extremely well trained and having a bad moment or being newly exposed to something he hasn't seen before.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> ...So I don't understand why some think having a horse that is obedient makes it scared and not calm?
> 
> Can that be explained?


Sure!

Never said ALL obedient horses are scared and not calm. And of course, my goal is to get Bandit mostly obedient while calm - and we are at that stage. MOSTLY obedient while calm.

But it is ALSO true that a horse can be BOTH scared and obedient. Bandit's previous owner used him in relay races. As he pointed out to me, he couldn't very well win a race if he needed to stop and explain things to his horse! And he was right - for what he did with Bandit. 

But I don't compete in anything. I've got as much time as I need. As my wife pointed out once, if we needed to detour, "_So what? We ride another 1/4 mile on a beautiful day. Why is that something to get upset over?_" And two weeks later, Bandit strolled solo past the thing he couldn't pass with another horse that day.

A horse started right should be BOTH obedient and calm. SOME horses who are told "Just do it!" eventually decide that 'doing it' works out, so no problem. They become obedient and calm by being told to do it. But SOME horses don't calm that way. Some horses NEED an explanation before they will trust and calm. And I happen to have owned two of them.

Mia is now, when not too pregnant, being used as a "kid's horse". There are many things I wish I could do over with her, but she is now considered a "kid's horse". I didn't totally fail her. And what she taught me was crucial for working with Bandit.

I think a lot of older beginning riders would be helped by my approach. They need to understand you don't build trust in a round pen. And they need to understand that a horse with options is far less likely to explode - and older beginners tend to fear explosions. We don't bounce as well.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Phantom horse explained the entire idea pretty well, as there is a combo of things, and not just body control, but trust, repetition, built over time
No, you don't just do body control exercises over and over again in an arena, and you miss the entire point, BSMS. You get the hrose soft in his entire body, before riding him out, and all body control does, as we have gone over this point umpteen times, is, give you that little moment in time, to make it difficult for a horse to go into flight mode, just long enough to get that mind back to you
horses are hardwired to react first, get safe distance, then evaluate
Again, BSMS, you talk about garbage cans. Sure, you can let a horse pause, then urge him on, get off, lead him up to it, ect, but you have yet to tell me what you would do, if Bandit was riding along, he he spots a moose.Yes, if that moose just stays that distance, moves off, you can perhaps just let Bandit sit there, then urge him on, bUT, sometimes young moose are curious, so tell, em what you would do, if that moose starts coming towards Bandit. I am quite sure, neither just letting him stand there on a loose rein, or taking him up for a sniff, is going to do it!
Body control is just an additional tool, that goes along with trust, experience, time and exposure. Sometimes you need to use all of those tools, sometimes only one.
Can't use a tool you do not have!
I have had deer jump out, numerous times, grouse fly up under the nose of my horse, and my seasoned horses just spook in place. There, I am only using trust and experience, and it is not as if I use body control each and every time, but that girl in that spook video, sure could have used it!
As for that horse , jumping off of that diving board, give me a break-that is not trust, anymore then a horse galloping into battle, cannons firing, amidst the smell of blood


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> ...but in reality that horse might be extremely well trained and having a bad moment or being newly exposed to something he hasn't seen before.


I asked a friend with 50+ years of riding in rough country when his horse became the most frightened. He said he had a great ranch horse. One day he was riding back to camp...on the 4th of July. As he passed a campsite, two campers started dueling boom boxes. The horse lost its mind. Finally bolted a couple of miles.

The horse had thousands of miles of riding in desert and mountains. He could work his way down a thousand foot slope with no path. Pick his way thru heavy forest. Work cattle and sheep. But he was caught off guard by dueling boom boxes on the 4th of July...

Bandit freaked the first time he heard a radio. Now he ignores them. But he had to be exposed to them and learn they didn't eat horses.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

For me, I don't care if my horse is scared or acting, they are not allowed to spin or bolt or act like idiots because there is something spooky. I may make adjustments as far as how my ride goes if there is something that worries them, but then my whole ride will focus around working past that place.

If they try to balk sideways they will get counter flexed, half halted, and moved over. If they try to run forward they get shut down before they get to that point. You're not allowed to dance when we have a several foot drop beside up, or bushes, or machinery, or any other number of things that would be dangerous. You're not allowed to spin on a roadway or try and bolt on a trail. That can get both of us killed.

Having them trust you is fine and dandy and all, and my horses do trust me, but they shouldn't have to trust you in order to get past a spooky object. What if a different rider is on them? All their training should go out the window? I'm not letting my horses put anyone in a dangerous situation because they haven't bonded with their rider, or they would rather not face something. And I have a hot, spooky young warmblood. When I ride him out I set him up for success by keeping him on contact, my leg on, feel what he's feeling and adjusting for it. He will oogle at a pile of banting in the arena every single time he goes past it if I don't ride him. If I do ride him actively, I can school him around the quad while the arena is harrowed. I don't care if it's an odd patch of dirt, or a kid on a bike with an umbrella, they will go where I tell them to, how I tell them to. It's up to me not to abuse that power after that.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> I asked a friend with 50+ years of riding in rough country when his horse became the most frightened. He said he had a great ranch horse. One day he was riding back to camp...on the 4th of July. As he passed a campsite, two campers started dueling boom boxes. The horse lost its mind. Finally bolted a couple of miles.
> 
> The horse had thousands of miles of riding in desert and mountains. He could work his way down a thousand foot slope with no path. Pick his way thru heavy forest. Work cattle and sheep. But he was caught off guard by dueling boom boxes on the 4th of July...
> 
> Bandit freaked the first time he heard a radio. Now he ignores them. But he had to be exposed to them and learn they didn't eat horses.


That is the entire point, a horse will always encounter something he has not been exposed to before,and that is when training comes into play, able to ride that horse through those situations
When that coyote came jumping out from under that hay tarp, following some bales he dislodged, as I rode by that hay stack, no way did I have an previous chance to expose Smilie to that.
it sure as heck would seem as if that coyote was attacking, and startled me also. Sure, Smilie took a leap forward, but she did not bolt, but stopped, as I checked her head around and said,'whoa'
There are places that I ride, where a hrose has to keep forward, can't spin or leap sideways,and that is when, being able to keep forward, perhaps counterflex your horse, can get you through such a spot
As per that horse in the video, have one try to go backwards, on a steep winding climb,
, or even jsut stall out,and you are going to have a serious wreak


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Thinking about @phantomhorse13's experiences, @bsms's experiences, and my own.

It seems that all three have achieved similar results but with at least somewhat varied approaches. Reminds me of what one person here at the ranch told me early on, "A lot of it is just time with your horse".

So the result is that each of us thinks, "My way worked", when much of the success may have been to things we did not recognize or notice we were doing. But like "The Shadow", the horse sees all.

Of course @bsms spent plenty of time with Mia but as described much of it back then didn't seem to be just relaxed time with the horse.

With just time to get to know each other and become familiar with what and when to expect certain things means a lot I think. Just like two people getting to know each other.

And I'll have to add that all of my solo riding from day one has been in a Cook's with which I controlled Hondo with a herd of 20+ streaming on each side of us within the first couple of months of riding him. I am not persuaded that my experience would have been better with Hondo in a snaffle. But that may not be the case with every horse. With Hondo I think it may have been a help for I really do believe he appreciated my honoring his own individual distaste for a bit, for what ever reason and however the distaste originated.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...There are places that I ride, where a hrose has to keep forward, can't spin or leap sideways,and that is when, being able to keep forward, perhaps counterflex your horse, can get you through such a spot
> 
> As per that horse in the video, have one try to go backwards, on a steep winding climb,, or even jsut stall out,and you are going to have a serious wreak...
> 
> ...Again, BSMS, you talk about garbage cans. Sure, you can let a horse pause, then urge him on, get off, lead him up to it, ect, but you have yet to tell me what you would do, if Bandit was riding along, he he spots a moose.


This may come as a shock, but just about everybody who trail rides rides in places where it is dangerous for a horse to go just anywhere. Ride a horse along a road, and it will be darn dangerous for the horse to go sideways into traffic. I spend a lot of time riding next to cactus. It would be a very bad idea for a horse to spook into cactus.

And oddly enough, even Mia never did that. I worried about her, and she sometimes jumped sideways 6 feet, and she could spin like crazy. She did spin us out in front of traffic once, and she did try multiple times to back us off of ledges. That is part of why she is now in the open country of NE Arizona. But even Mia kept enough SA - situational awareness - to keep us out of cactus.

I've already said something I like about Bandit is that he keeps good SA now. If he has 50 feet he can safely move sideways, he feels free to move 48 feet. If he has 3 feet, he'll feel free to move 1 foot. That is something that also depends on the horse and how experienced and how scared they are. The lady who had her horse bolt into a solid wall, full speed, killing himself and injuring her, had the most dangerous situation - a horse who truly lost his mind.

We don't have moose here. We do have dirt bikes, as I've mentioned, who come at you at 30-40 mph, ridden by people in full face masks and bright colored body suits.

I've already said I'll do whatever it takes to ensure Bandit does not profit from spinning, bolting, biting or bucking. I cannot make him NOT spin, but I can see to it he gets no profit from that action!

And I can PREVENT a lot of that by listening to a talking horse first! Rather than ride him out - which I've done a bit of - I'd much rather he TELL me he is too scared, and then we can work TOGETHER to find a solution that does not trap him. If I try to push him past stuff, and use "body control" to do so, I can't complain - shouldn't, at least - if he then defends himself. I also shouldn't be surprised if my "body control" proves faulty.

Because we don't control the horses body. We use "cues" - requests for a trained response - not "controls". No one blocks a horse's shoulder with a rein. Your rein position, on a trained horse, asks him to respond differently. No one "creates impulsion with their leg" - quote from a dressage manual. I do, but when I'm jogging, not riding.

We never control the horse's body. We can influence the mind that controls the body. That isn't a semantic difference.

What do I do if Bandit is confronted with something that is too much, and something that is moving toward us? I try to find a spot close by where we can get as far away as possible - be that 5 feet or 50 feet. I'll use standard cues for move left, right, forward or back - to encourage him to go there. Being a thinking horse, he has probably already seen it and is already thinking of going there anyways. So we go there together. If there is a ledge there, or a bunch of cactus, I may briefly direct rein his face to make sure he LOOKS at that danger. 

Then face the scary thing. That was something I had to teach him by blocking his desire - using any means necessary - to spin and run. That was something I needed a CURB BIT to teach Mia. So I used it. I managed to teach Bandit that with a snaffle. I think he would accept it now bitless, and we may go that route someday.

We face the scary thing, together. Did the same thing with Mia after I got her, with help from a curb bit, to hold her ground.

But if I see that situation developing, I'll take proactive steps before it becomes an issue - because I know I don't control my horse's body. If I see the garbage truck coming toward us at 40 mph, larger than any moose and belching smoke and stinking, I'll try to find somewhere - a driveway maybe, or side street - that will give us some extra room. Or quickly dismount, before Bandit gets scared, so I can help him better when the time comes.

I don't trust body control, because Bandit can ignore any cue - bit, whip, heels. Any cue that can be taught can be ignored if the horse wants to ignore it. So I work with his mind.

--------------------------------------

Main points: 

1 - I was told many times that if I had a problem on the trail, the solution was to get in an arena and learn "body control". Once a person understands we ASK horses to do thing and don't CONTROL them, then it follows that a horse who knows a cue and who chooses to ignore it due to fear or excitement will not be cured by getting in an arena and practicing some more. You cannot build trust where the horse has no need for trust.

2 - It is OK to be a coward. Horses do not object to a rider taking excessive care of them. They object to and will not trust a rider who ignores their fear. Trapped horses explode. Horses with options don't get as scared and don't explode. They USE their options.

Contrary to what I was told, honoring Bandit's fears didn't make him more fearful. He's become far more calm and confident BECAUSE I honor his fears and take care of him. And every time I show him I was right all along, and that he had nothing to be afraid of, he becomes a tiny bit more trusting. He spent years going past stuff he was still afraid of. I shouldn't be surprised that it takes a long time to re-wire his brain.

-------------------------------------

Ideally, I want Bandit to get to where Cowboy and Trooper are now. When Cowboy and I were being shot at, Cowboy was scared. Very scared. He had no clue what to do - so he NEEDED me to decide for him. Along with Trooper, we charged toward the gunfire. I want Bandit to think, "_I'm scared! What should I do? Oh wait - I bet my rider knows! What should I do, bsms?_"

If I can get him there, then the bit won't matter. If I can get him there, he'll do fine bitless. And yes, I've ridden him bitless on the trail. Primarily use an O-ring snaffle for now. Used a Billy Allen curb for Mia, until her emotions started to come under better control. With Trooper and Cowboy, it doesn't matter what you use. That is where I want Bandit.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

It seems to me that what we have here is two methods of accomplishing the same goal. Staying safe on your horse.

Smilie, BSMS lives and rides in the dessert. No moose there unless one escaped into the desert from a zoo. Alpacas, bikes, ATV’s, rattle snakes maybe. Moose, no.

BSMS having control of your whole horse’s body is a good idea for safety. It is quite useful in many regards. 

Pushing a horse past an object is one way to “skin the cat”. However, for some people (especially those who are beginning to ride in their fifties or older), trying to push a horse through ends in tragedy. A friend of mine who grew up on her daddy’s ranch raising and riding Quarter Horses for Futurity, pushed her fearful horse through one too many times and ended up with a broken arm and shoulder lying in a pile of rock and prickly pear. She went thirty years riding without a major injury but, not that day, with that horse. Her experience, changed my opinion on that method always being the way to go. 

It has to be left up to the judgement of the individual rider and the knowledge of their own riding abilities and the horse they are riding to make that call. A blanket statement (which I am not accusing anyone here of making but, have seen it made at other times), as with so many things in riding, where words like "Never" and "always" get applied, are misnomers.

As for the claim that you cannot prepare your horse to encounter every imaginable object, I think that is only true if you believe horses are unable to mentally make good use of associative learning. (a learning process in which separate ideas and beliefs are linked in order to increase learning effectiveness)

We showed up at my trainer’s for a ride and he was doing Western Dressage to a native American tune with only a flute. The mournful sound (it sounds a lot like a loon call at times) made Oliver nervous at first and he hesitated to approach but, since we had just unloaded, I led him up to the speaker where he got a chance to sniff and nose it, feeling the vibrations. Eventually, he found it rather fascinating as I had to tell him it was time to go. After that, we started riding to music ourselves.

A month or so later we were riding through a neighborhood where a garage band was practicing. He was a little tense but, we rode right past. Native American Flute coming through a speaker vs a bunch of teens slamming on a drum set with screeching electric guitars live, are different but, similar enough that he could pull from past experiences with caution rather than fear. Not all that different than a deer and a moose.

He’s been around regular cattle and I took him out to ride at a place that had Texas Longhorns. The lady I was riding with, initially said she intended to pony us through that pasture because for whatever reason, even horses used to working regular cattle took huge issue with the 12’ wide heads of the Longhorns. Oliver did just fine. I stopped him. He took one long look, sniffed the air, sighed and away we went. No big deal. No ponying necessary. It took all of five seconds. Different but, similar enough. 

We’ve ridden through Camels, wild turkeys, alpacas, hogs, chickens, goats, sheep, not so friendly dogs, snakes, vultures, deer, both dead and alive without an issue. He doesn’t spook or baulk at rocks, stumps, tractors, big or small, Christmas décor, boats on land or in the water, ATV's, Bikers, water skiers, wake boarders, swimmers, hikers, wind blowing in the trees or some imagined booger in the arena corner and will go where I point him whether he is in a shanked bit, a snaffle, a Dr. Cooks, a rope halter or a bosal. He learned that self control in the bosal, bitless. We've had two true baulk to date and only one real spook, which was quite justified. 

He spent the first six months of rehabilitation being able to investigate every strange new object I could find from the ground on lead. I believe it had an effect that carried over into our rides under saddle. 

That said, he is quite by nature, a brave and curious minded horse to begin with. He can also be opinionated. You can choose to fight his nature or use it to your advantage. 

Pushing a horse past is one way to get their mind using repetition and insistence, getting off and letting them investigate the world around them to mitigate fear or formant curiosity is another. To each their own.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hondo said:


> THIS: And I wanted a calm and confident horse, not a scared but obedient one.
> 
> AND THIS: You cannot bypass the mind of a horse via repetitions.


Hondo makes a very good point here. 
Of course I'm speaking from the perspective of a person who hasn't just owned/ridden a handful of horses in their lifetime but one that's ridden/owned or managed hundreds of them so perhaps that makes a difference
I've known lots of horses that came over as being incredibly calm and obedient but in truth they were that way because they were afraid not to be that way. Unfortunately when they come across something that's a lot more scary than their rider the wheels tend to fall off
Repetition training has its uses because horses have the minds of very young children but repetition training is all about creating muscle memory and the more you do the less the horse has to engage it's brain to figure out what you're asking for - the end result of that is a horse that's acting like a robot on auto pilot so if its in a situation where its brain takes over from that auto-pilot state it struggles to think rationally for itself or to listen to it's rider
We usually found that the ponies we bought from the New Forest round up sales that were untouched were much better at figuring out what was and wasn't a threat than those that had become totally rider dependent but lost faith in the rider when presented with something scary and that loss of faith completely over ruled any arena based 'muscle memory' training it had


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> Hondo makes a very good point here.


Those were quoted from bsms's post prior to mine. I'll hand your kudos on over to him.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

of course you can't by pass the mind, but you can get taht brief moment to get it back on you, if it should leave, briefly.
I only mentioned the moose, as an example of something not coming at a horse, with the rider just letting the horse stop and look, compared with something the horse is concerned about, continuing to come at them, in regards as to how you would handle the latter, should the hrose become more tense, as that object comes closer. That object could be anything, and not just an animal
In other words, there are times to let the hrose stop and look, times to keep forward, with some body control, and times to get off.
I also in no way negated trust, experience , which works by itself, 90 % of the time, esp on ahrose you have ridden for awhile
I also have gone into the fact many times, that if you prefer bittless, don't need to get a horse up in a bridle, then that is also fine, just don't assume that bittless is always kinder, and that well trained horses ridden with bits, can't be ridden , as many had their basic education, bittless
Hondo is also an older gelding, and you can't just extrapolate all equine behavior, based on him. Things might be a bit different, having hrose stream by him, were he a green colt, or a breeding animal
I have ridden Carmen out lots, where she has sen feral horses, had studs come closer for a look, and she remained calm. On the other hand, I rode Charlie out once, when she was in heat, and we came across a band of feral hroses, complete with foals and a stallion, that kept coming towards us, and with those mares and colts racing back and forth across the clearing in front of us. I had to use some body control on Charlie, ride her past that place, as she was sure that big boy wanted her, and her mind was for a short time, on that herd, more then on me
Once we got further down the trail, she relaxed, and continued on, riding with a loose rein
In the end, I am not saying you just work on body control, that you need it all the time, that you don't develop trust in your hrose, that you ride a fearful horse, and that most times experience, trust will get you through stuff, but to totally say you never need body control, so why bother, is also wrong, JMO


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, Evidence Based Horsemanship has proven that horses living feral, handled little, needing to look out for their own survival, versus stall raised horses, actually develope more neurons for learning, and many have stated the intelligence of Mustangs, due to this very fact, plus Dr Gustavfson stated that horses in training, allowed to live naturally, brought in out of the field, for lessons, learn way better then hroses kept stalled
Why does it seem to be considered here, one way or the other, that if you put body control on your horse, you then throw trust, thinking, experience/exposure, out the window, and you must therefore be riding a fearful robotic horse? That is so far out in left field, that I don't even know how to respond, as it seems if you even advocate using body control where it might apply, you throw all the rest of proven good horsemanship out the window, and then think, putting body control alone, on your horse will then let you blithely ride anywhere on some robotic, fearful horse
Since I do ride my show hroses out, I think I know as well as anyone, that a horse can be highly trained to ride in an arena, and yet be an absolute idiot ridden out, if not given that experience also, as part of his training
I have seen show horses, that are only ever arena ridden, can win upper level competitions, yet can hardly be ridden from the stabling facilities to the arena, needing to be led there, then mounted, so you are preaching tot he choir, far as just putting ingrained cues on your horse, in an arena, and expecting them to serve you in some situation out of that comfort zone.Also, body control is not just regular upper level memory learned cues, but as per that video by Larry Trocha, and is just an ADDITIONAL TOOL, in that tool box, so cited here, and which I also totally believe in-experience, trust, and developing a confident horse


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We don't get a lot of moose around here but unusually a few weeks ago we did have one around and it was using the very dried up river bank that goes along the bottom of our property to go back and forth between a wildlife reservation park and the lake 
Our horses were quite surprised by it in a more inquisitive way, I think the UK pair thought it was some weird looking breed of cattle and they just watched calmly as it went by, the 3 US horses quickly picked up on the fact that the UK horses weren't afraid so they relaxed and were more interested than anything - no panic or running away at all.
I'm not decrying having a horse responsive to cues - why would I? I've had to rely on that to compete and hunt but the brain is a very powerful thing. If it wasn't I wouldn't be afraid of frogs and heights and I'm a human.
If you get a reasonable warning of a spook then it is possible to take control and minimize the fallout if the horse will listen to you and you can use your cues to over ride what its strong primitive instinct is telling it to do but a lot of time the spooks come way too fast for the average rider to even be on catch up.
If the horse is faking a spook to have an excuse to turn back home or avoid something you can kiss your cues goodbye!!


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Being a dressage rider, we clearly use a lot of repetitions. BUT we do NOT do them back to back to back often. My horse would be dreadfully bored if I hopped on and told her all we would be doing that day is walk trot or walk canter transitions. Repetitions, for us, have come over the 3 years she has been under saddle, and she was started by me with no training prior (bought her as a yearling). Every day we work on certain aspects of our riding. Which has translated into every area we venture into. I have "body control" in the sense that I can put her shoulders or haunches any where I want them, and she obliges. She is not deadheaded. Anyone that has been near her or allowed to ride her knows she's a highly opinionated, expressive horse. If she thinks something is wrong, she lets you know.

I'm an "arena" rider in the sense that I school dressage, but as far as an arena goes... I have nothing. I have a wide open field that we periodically set up my letters in to make it look like an arena. But the fact is, she isn't ridden in an arena until we haul her to shows or lessons (which yes, after 15 years of riding I STILL love getting lessons.) She's schooled off of my legs and seat with minor cues from my hands. She carries a bit, and I can assure you that doesn't bother her in the least. On the contrary, when I give her rein, she happily follows it down wanting that connection with me. I HAVE ridden her in a halter, but she's not as confident in it. There is too much grey area with the halter. The bit allows for more black and white cues, which she very much prefers.

Now, the discussion of an arena horse flopping on the trails... we hauled out to Hocking Hills this fall to trail ride with another forum member. My mare had NEVER been on real trails. And these were REAL trails. Water crossings, logs in the trail, steep drop offs that if your horse spooked and went over, you'd both be dead. I schooled briefly before we hit the trails to ensure the brain was working properly and she was responsive. Aside from a few minor blips, my "dressage diva" mare was a true trail horse that day. Having done the "3000 repetitions" with my seat and legs allowed her to correlate that to the trails. As an aside, we were with other horses, but my mare HATES others. HATES them. So she was not relying on how others were reacting to the trails. She was reacting to her knowledge that I have instilled in her through our arena work.

The pictures I've posted were taken roughly a month apart. The trail pictures include walking into a cave (she's never seen a cave in her life, but walked happily right on in) and walking between rocks that were REALLY close together, something else she has never experienced before.

Now, her and I have mutual trust, but I work HARD to ensure her training is thorough. My extremely green husband can hop on her and hack around our farm with no worries of her spinning, bucking and bolting. Because I've worked hard to give her the confidence in whatever rider is on her back. She may stop and stare, but it normally only takes mild nudging with the legs to let her know whatever it is is harmless and she's safe to walk on.

That's just my $0.02. With regards to the entire bits vs bitless debate, I think it's a mutual respect thing. I'll respect your choice to ride bitless, and I ask for your respect in my choice to ride in a bit on contact.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've never said a person doesn't need to teach cues before riding out. That would be suicidal. In fact, every time I introduce a new bit, I take time to review lateral and vertical flexions from the ground, then repeat at a walk before trotting, etc. Usually takes about 5 minutes, but I never assume the horse will understand a new bit or new bitless bridle just because they understood a previous one.

But I may do a hundred left and right turns with Bandit just picking our way across 200 yards of cactus. We may do a half-dozen stops in the same distance so I can figure out where to try next. It would be hard to ride a horse for a few months without doing thousands of turns and uncounted stops and starts.

Bandit was ridden for years, primarily in a bosal with a bit added to stop him when he got excited. He did thousands of turns before I ever met him. He did need to learn to trust a bit. We worked on THAT in an arena before heading out. But frequently given advice for a trail horse who gets competitive, or excited, or scared, is to ride him in an arena with a snaffle and get control of him. My point is that it is entirely possible to have a horse behave beautifully in an arena, yet deliberately ignore your cues outside of one. 

I don't have tons of experience with hundreds of horses. I have had the same horse bolt multiple times on one ride, and I have done uncounted spins on a scared horse. You no more learn to handle that by riding in an arena than you teach a horse to go down a steep hill in an arena. I've tried lots of different things. You ( @Smilie ) suggest bending a horse toward the scary thing. Tom Roberts, who has consistently given me my most effective advice, says it works better to bend the horse AWAY. And still others say to keep the horse straight, and focus on things ahead of the scary object.

I've tried all three. Many times. If there is a difference in effectiveness, or a universal rule to use, I cannot detect it. The most effective thing I've found is to teach the horse to talk to you, and then give the horse real choices. A horse who chooses X over Y is more likely to have success trying X than a horse compelled to try Y. 

If Hondo is more confident and willing bitless, who am I to argue with Hondo? If Mia was more confident in a Billy Allen curb, who am I to argue? If Bandit and I can find a compromise acceptable to us both, why is that wrong? The root of horsemanship is the horse.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> You (@Smilie) suggest bending a horse toward the scary thing. Tom Roberts, who has consistently given me my most effective advice, says it works better to bend the horse AWAY. And still others say to keep the horse straight, and focus on things ahead of the scary object.
> 
> I've tried all three. Many times. If there is a difference in effectiveness, or a universal rule to use, I cannot detect it.


Smile never said to bend them towards the object. Counter flex is what she said. Allowing them to bend towards the object only allows them an avenue of evasion. Keeping them straight or counter bent gives more control over their reactions, and won't allow them to scoot away as easily. There is a huge difference in their effectiveness, even just riding in an arena.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Actually, you can ride a green horse out pretty successfully, along with some seasoned hroses, and more easily then riding that green horse out alone, from home
Many horses will ride better, hauled somewhere, where they don't know where home is, then when asked to ride out alone, leaving their barn and buddies
Far as having an arena, I only had an outdoor arena, useless for much of the year in Alberta, for the last 20 years. Before that, i started and trained in a pasture, across empty crop fields and just down country road.
 I even trained flying lead changes, going down our gravel road, after work, at dusk
Certainly, most times, when horses see game for the first time, they just look at it curiously, with that moose chosing to run away, versus coming closer
Horses only become concerned, if some animal they are not sure of, starts to approach them, like that donkey
Yes, a true fear spook, you just ride out, as if nothing happened, and cannot be expected for a horse not to react, when something pops out suddenly. You can though, prevent/stop the hrose from following that up with a buck or an attempted bolt
Far as a horse using spooking to get out of work, taht is a horse you must get after, making spooking the wrong thing to do, making that feigned spooking have uncomfortable results, and working through it, ending work session when the hrose is working honestly
You sure can use body control to stop such a horse from gaining from that spooking, making sure he understands that it is not part of the program


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I'm not decrying having a horse responsive to cues - why would I? I've had to rely on that to compete and hunt but the brain is a very powerful thing. If it wasn't I wouldn't be afraid of frogs and heights and I'm a human.
> If you get a reasonable warning of a spook then it is possible to take control and minimize the fallout if the horse will listen to you and you can use your cues to over ride what its strong primitive instinct is telling it to do but a lot of time the spooks come way too fast for the average rider to even be on catch up.


The best starting point is to teach a horse to respond to cues, and to also know the horse's basic reactions. Are they likely to be reactive, calmer, etc? 
The difference I have with some is that I see this as the starting point, not the solution. 
The next step would be getting the horse lots of experiences for exposure, and also developing trust with the rider. 
But worst case, it's very important to not trust training, but to rely instead on reading the horse, knowing when they are going to explode, and not pushing them beyond that point. I think of it as releasing a pressure valve. If the horse needs distance right now, do not push the horse closer or you will be sorry.

Why do I think this? Because I've tried it. I've tried relying on training, and my confidence, and other blasted things that left me laying in the ditch and watching a horse run off. Because I'm not super bright, and learn from the school of hard knocks. So I've thought, well, maybe it's a horse that I've trained, so they're not so solid. But what about this super well trained QH? Ditch. OK, what about this really well trained dressage horse? Ditch. But this horse has been _everywhere_. Surely he doesn't have a nemesis? Turns out he's never seen a pink umbrella before. Ditch.

I've also seen pro trainers come back to the barn with their horse limping at least two or three times. What happened? "Tried to push the horse. We smashed into a big rock." Or "Went into the ditch."

So guess what? I don't try to push horses toward things they're scared of anymore.



> _*(Smilie*_) of course you can't by pass the mind, but you can get that brief moment to get it back on you, if it should leave, briefly.


This is hopefully something you learn about the horse. Many horses have their mind leave, briefly. Others have their mind leave for oh, about ten minutes. That's a very long time. That's a horse you never want to push to that point if you can help it. Should you reach that point with a horse that does not calm back down easily, you may have a different strategy such as getting off quickly and leading the horse as he bolts around you rather than trying to get him to respond to cues.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

ApuetsoT said:


> Smile never said to bend them towards the object. Counter flex is what she said. Allowing them to bend towards the object only allows them an avenue of evasion. Keeping them straight or counter bent gives more control over their reactions, and won't allow them to scoot away as easily. There is a huge difference in their effectiveness, even just riding in an arena.


This. Bending toward the scary object could just ramp them up. I counter bend (so AWAY from the scary object), and usually put leg on to almost leg yield them toward the scary object. Works any time my mare wants to "spook" at someone dropping stuff while riding along the rail at a show (trails aren't the only place where unexpected events can take place!)

My point with repetitions was that when I ask my mare to do something, she has a trained response for it. It does not just happen in an arena. It happens out on the trail too.

As far as leaving buddies being harder, I've done that too. I just don't consider hacking around the farm a real trail ride. But if we want to get into that, I've ridden my mare safely away from her buddies on the farm while they are racing around and causing all sorts of ruckus. My mare's attention is on me, not her buddies. I've also "trail ridden" on the property "solo" (as in, no other horses with us; away from her buddies) while following my husband's side by side, which makes a crazy amount of noise. She does so willingly as I have established that whoever is in the saddle is the leader who will keep her safe. There are also people hunting on the farm, so she is no stranger to having gunshots ring out as we are working. Doesn't phase her. Again, because I am her leader and she knows I will keep her out of harms way.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Tazzie, you ride your show horse out, just like I do, so I am not disputing as to how well your horse rides out, and just made a general observation, having ridden many horses out, for their first time, over a thirty year span or more, and not directed at you
I just have found, that you can ride some fairly green horses out, better, where they don't know where home is, and with other hroses, and in fact, i know an outfitter that makes his living around that principle!
He used to take un started hroses, starting them for free, for their use during that season's trail riding
Within a month or so, those horses were going out on day trial rides, often packing dude, anywhere, but, when you got such a horse home, as my friend found out, they were miles away from even riding out across a filed, safely by themselves
I bought an ex race mare, off the track, that had learned every bad trick in the book, due to bad experiences on the track. She halter pulled, reared, went over backwards. 
I did get her partly re trained, but she was never the same as a horse I raised and started from day one. I did ride her out in the mountains, and she was a way better ride there, then she ever became, riding out from home. 
Trottin, If you read back far enough on this topic, you will see that I readily stated that there are times to use body control and ride a horse past stuff, time to let a horse look and appraise, and even times to get off
There is no one magic bullet
Far as having horses run into rocks etc, that to me shows the rider never assessed either the situation, himself or the horse correctly


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

My apologies Smilie! I did think it was directed at me!

We've never had an issue with Izzie, but then again I've been the sole trainer of her. I know what training I've put into her to develop her into the horse she is today. So we've never had an issue riding out alone, with company, away from buddies, or at a show. I'd have felt safe putting my husband on her for the major (in my world :lol trails we rode at Hocking Hills even though he's green as grass and mostly a passenger instead of an active rider. She thinks through situations instead of just reacts.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Tazzie said:


> My apologies Smilie! I did think it was directed at me!
> 
> We've never had an issue with Izzie, but then again I've been the sole trainer of her. I know what training I've put into her to develop her into the horse she is today. So we've never had an issue riding out alone, with company, away from buddies, or at a show. I'd have felt safe putting my husband on her for the major (in my world :lol trails we rode at Hocking Hills even though he's green as grass and mostly a passenger instead of an active rider. She thinks through situations instead of just reacts.


from what I have read, you have done a great job with Tazzie, making her into a wonderful all around horse!


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> from what I have read, you have done a great job with Tazzie, making her into a wonderful all around horse!


Thank you kindly!


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Why is it that experienced riders is typed out as 'experienced riders', like some slur?

When were reins the only thing used to stop a spin?

Horses don't spin and bolt in arena? Really? Hmmm ride in an arena somewhere in the north when the winter snow start to melt and 12 inches of snow and ice slide off the roof. Don't spin in an arena...bah. Oh and when it starts raining and 25 umbrellas come out and up. Good spin material. Or when riding a test, to come down center line one has to ride by corn stalks in October on a windy day. That particular day many horses did not exit the dressage arena in a normal fashion. Most exited at F or V......lolol

Body control can control the mind. The horse's body becomes conditioned to respond to a cue before the mind can take over. Is that mind control via the body?

For example, and this is with people, when driving and I am forced to make an abrupt stop, my right arm flings out to the passenger seat to block. Now, I haven't had a small child in the front seat in some 18 years, but my body is reacting to the stop before my mind can say 'no one there'. I have saved my purse a few times from flying to the floorboard and emptying out its contents. So, there is that. The point is, for years I had kids in the front seat and it is so ingrained in my mind, that my body reacts.

To me that is what I mean by body control while riding. His body responds to my cue before his mind takes over.

It does not matter if you have moose, or buffalo, turkey or grouse, dirt bike riders or mountain bike riders, all can cause a horse to become concerned over something. Our goal and our duty as riders is to be able to read the horse's cue(s) that he is planning on taking matters into his own feet, and influence his reaction to the stimuli we each encounter in the areas we ride in.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

^^Thanks. I've been looking for a good way to explain how I think of body control and why it is useful to install. I think you nailed it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

So here's a great example of how a horse's mind takes over from all the well established cues its been taught over many years. This is a horse and rider at Olympic level so neither of them are by any stretch of the imagination what could be described as novices. The horse is also in his familiar territory - a dressage arena - and yet given the right triggers all of that 'muscle memory' and education that's been instilled into him to get him to this really high standard goes right out of the window
Experience, good training and knowledge of your horse are valuable things but unless you're someone who's only ever ridden very easy going horses (and I've been lucky to have quite a few of them) imagining that your horse is always going to listen to those cues you've drilled into him/her is a dangerous place to be
Re. the flexing away or towards really depends on the horse - some actually respond better if they are flexed towards the scary thing so they can keep an eye on it and if flexed away will see that as an opportunity to run away from the scary thing - for others the opposite works better
The first video is from a different event for comparison


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

^^Yep. With kids and animals...the only thing you can rightly expect is the unexpected.

When I was teaching group ice skating lessons, every 8 week session there was always that one kid who could not feel when going backwards, when they were approaching another person or even the wall. I learned to always stand with my knees slightly bent, ready for them to hit me at any time. 

I didn’t worry about what I was going to do when it actually happened (again) that would be reflexive, having “practiced” thousands of off balance falls over the years. All I could do was always put myself into a position physically and mentally where I would best be ready when it came. It was coming, it was only a matter of when.

You can only control so much most of the time and be ready for the rest. I think with horses, body control of the rider is as important as that of the horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yup, ride out west,in an arena, and have that snow slide off the roof, and horses can spook in arenas as well as anywhere else
Far as those videos Jaydee posted, high level of training, does not equate to body control, and when you are showing, you still try to ride through stuff, versus really correcting that hrose
I think there is a huge mis under standing as to what body control is, as used, not to ride ahrose in some high level competition, where body correct aleignment and engagement is key,, but the ability to take a horse;s head away, disengage those hips, making b
'bad behavior both difficult and to have consequences
It has absolutely zero to do, with having the training on a horse to compete in any upper level discipline , as it is true, any horse can freak, and the aim is to school, correct such a horse, BEFORE you get to a major show
I've seen quite a few highly trained hroses, freak, either through true fear, or because they have become show sour, horses that can win at upper level, when they are 'on', but horses that have learned, different rules apply within the show ring then outside of it, with that rider always riding to win, never correcting that horse in a show situation
Nope, high level training has zero to do with body control, by itself.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

That Olympic horse freaking out, is a prime example of a rider hoping the horse is going to settle down and she can still ride that pattern , versus getting after that horse. 
I see zero body control exercises attempted, with the rider just hoping the horse is going to settle and listen to her aids, which is under understandable, given the venue
But guess what, horses don't realize that the reason the rider did not shut him down in his tracks, is because the rider still wished to get that hrose shown, just that in the showring, different rules apply
If you always ride to win, that is exactly what can happen.
A good book to read, concerning this, is 'Riding With Bob', where he goes into keeping a show horse honest, by not always riding to win, taking that horse to schooling shows, showing that hrose that same rules apply in the showring, as outside of it, and then really riding to win, where it counts
That dressage horse needs to go to a schooling show, then be really, really shown that same rules apply in a showring, as outside of it, versus just hoping for the best, trying to ride a horse through stuff, just relying on training

great book, even though from a reining'working cowhorse trainer, which I think that dressage rider needs to read!

https://www.amazon.ca/Win-Bob-Avila-Training-Mentoring/dp/0911647570


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

What is not shown well in that video of the horse freaking out, is the fact that he was riding in a MASSIVE downpour. So, what that rider REALLY needs to work on is riding that horse in the rain. But I do agree. He was being a passive rider, hoping the horse would just settle. What he SHOULD have been doing is using legs, bending, etc to get the horse to realize he was fine and the rider was still in charge.

I will admit to having my horse decide to spaz in the middle of a show ring when it started pouring on us. The horse who lives outside. I said "to heck with trying to win" and worked her through it. Got 5th out of 5. But she learned something that day. That rules do apply within the ring. So the next show we were ALMOST done doing our First Level Test 3 (most challenging test we've done) when the skies opened up and we wound up under a waterfall. She tucked her tail and thought about being horrible. But a quick bump with my leg brought her back and reminded her that she survived last time, and she would survive this time. She finished her solid performance, in the downpour. Not happily, but she listened to me because she knew I wasn't leading her astray.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I generally don't get involved in these discussions but I wanted to provide some food for thought. 

I think it needs to be understood it's very different approaching a hot, very sensitive dressage horse than a stock horse or a general horse. I'll tell you right now being someone who has worked with a wide variety of different types of horses, it is not like riding a stock horse. It is not the same kind of brain or mentality. I can tell you right now, riding through it and approaching it as David did is not just hoping the horse will settle down, it's proactively working through an issue in a pretty tactful, patient way. It isn't poor body control or saying David is clueless. Pretty sure he's an olympic rider, pretty sure he's ridden a lot of quirky, very difficult horses. Ive met him and actually know some of the horses he's ridden and they are not easy, straight forward horses or here just let me show you the line horses, if you try that you're going to get hurt. What "should" conventionally or theoretically work, doesn't always work. There is not a one size fits all methodology for every horse, every situation and every discipline.

I can also say with my quarab, when I had him if he acted up and if I had got after him, I'd have ended up in a wall or the dirt. The best thing I could do with him was be patient and just ride it through and keep him going, shutting him down or getting after him or focusing on making what should be a small issue, a big issue it would have been very unproductive and possibly disastrous. When I rode that horse in his first show and outside the dressage ring he was spooking and taking off, if I didn't have him in a steep shoulder in he was gone. In the test you didn't see any of that because my approach was just to keep calm, not make the issue bigger than it already was, re-direct his focus, keep him thinking and the test was pretty accurate with no blows ups. It was tense but accurate and next test he was still nervous outside the arena but inside was pretty calm and fluid because of how I addressed the issue in his training and also in the arena. I provided a good experience, positive reassurance and kept returning his focus to me when he'd worry. There are horses where it is flat out tactless to get after them for acting up. Sometimes you have to be very subtle and tactful. I'll say on something really hot or with much anxiety, the best way is to redirect that energy and form good habits, if you want to get after them you're going to lose all their trust in you and when they get scared they'll act out vs turn to you and look for direction.

I also had a high anxiety horse who lost his mind and took off in the dressage arena and no I didn't "trigger" it, it just happened and it was just at that show he behaved like that. I had a judge who was pretty foolish trying to tell me to pull on his mouth and make him stop and I was like if I do that he's going to take the bit and legitimately bolt. With him, you had to just be patient and re train his habits, if you got after him or tried a one rein stop he'd just take the bit and go because people tried to do that in the past and he'd learned to go around it. Every horse is an individual and if you expect them all to fit into a one size fits all model or curriculum you're going to fail. 

Also as a dressage rider, I don't look at a reining horse or western horse and think oh they're badly trained and the rider is clueless if the horse doesn't go how I'd want it to or they approach an issue differently than I would but they are clearly a competent rider. I look at it as well there is probably a reason. I don't know that horse, I don't know the situation, I don't know what happened on that day, so what place do I have to make an assumption? I've ridden reining horses and I've ridden western pleasure horses, I helped a friend work through some training issues on a reining horse but I would never claim to be educated in the system and methodology of training a reining/western horse because that's not what I do, my experience in that direction is very limited. I appreciate that style of riding for what it is and accept that that isn't my area of expertise, so if I were watching say a reining horse and it suddenly spun out and refused to do a pattern, what place would it be of mine to comment on how that rider/trainer should have trained and addressed that issue? Sometimes horses and people just have rough/bad days, it happens to the best of us and it can always be speculated on how the situation could have been handled differently but bottom line that moment has passed, learn something from it and move on.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ever take a reiner to center, where many patterns start, with that horse being Up tight, from the word go?
It is not just dressage horses, but any upper level show hrose that can get hot
I am not picking on dressage , as I have seen reiners get hot also,taking control in a pattern
The idea that all stock horses are some dead , cold blooded individuals, versus warmbloods, is just plain incorrect. Ask someone who has ridden some cutters and working cowhorses with a lot of 'sting. Any upper level athlete, fed to perform , can get 'hot'
My only point being, using some warmblood freaking out, because rain was pounding on a roof, to try and prove body control has no merit, due to high level of training, is just not correct
You can have a horse doing ever other stride flying changes, yet that alone does not mean it equals plain old body control, nor that body control has no merit
I never saw that rider trying to disengage anything,but rather just trying to ride through that horse's freaking out, hoping the horse comes back, just based on ingrained response to basic aids, and that won't cut it on any horse that gets on the muscle, no matter how well trained


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Again, some example of body control, irregardless of correct body alignment, used in his 'regular job'
Quite right, that the first time to use some body control, is NOT in an actual situation, and yes, then you can very surely have a wreak, trying to either take the head away, or disengage hips


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I generally don't get involved in these discussions but I wanted to provide some food for thought.
> 
> I think it needs to be understood it's very different approaching a hot, very sensitive dressage horse than a stock horse or a general horse. I'll tell you right now being someone who has worked with a wide variety of different types of horses, it is not like riding a stock horse. It is not the same kind of brain or mentality. I can tell you right now, riding through it and approaching it as David did is not just hoping the horse will settle down, it's proactively working through an issue in a pretty tactful, patient way. It isn't poor body control or saying David is clueless. Pretty sure he's an olympic rider, pretty sure he's ridden a lot of quirky, very difficult horses. Ive met him and actually know some of the horses he's ridden and they are not easy, straight forward horses or here just let me show you the line horses, if you try that you're going to get hurt. What "should" conventionally or theoretically work, doesn't always work. There is not a one size fits all methodology for every horse, every situation and every discipline.
> 
> ...


I do love your insight on posts. And I am clearly under the weather for not thinking of the highly sensitive Dressage horses. I, thankfully, have never ridden anything *that* sensitive, so I'd only be drawing from what works for me. When Izzie had her minor melt down due to rain, it wasn't her being scared. She was flat out MAD about rain. I didn't kick or beat her, but redirected her brain to think of something other than the annoying rain (which I didn't want to be riding in either). I didn't *need* the class really, and it ended up being a good experience in her learning that I won't let her be hurt. The rain didn't hurt, just annoyed the diva. That experience came in handy when I *did* want it to count because it only took a small reminder to draw her back to a previous experience where it was annoying, yes, but we were fine. Just very wet. And hopefully the next time we get caught in the rain she won't even think of being a butt.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

The idea that a horse won't spook in an arena, especially a stock horse, is absurd. I have spent most of my life riding other peoples horses, while carrying one or 2 of my own to round out whatever string I was assigned from the remuda. The single worst spook I have ever experienced was in an arena. It was also on the single best horse I have ever owned, one I still own. We were at a jackpot roping, having a good time, hanging with some friends. We were hazing roping calves, when one got loose and ran directly under my horse and he spooked right into a harrow disk, and sliced himself to the bone. What, you ask, does this have to do with the cost of vodka in Moscow? The foundation I created in the _arena allowed me to keep him calm, while extricated him and got him vetted. So, be careful of labeling arena riders,"experienced" horsemen, and shaming horse types._


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

Thank you Katie. And exactly different horses have different approaches that work best.

I think you entirely missed the point of my post. How you approach a situation is going to be different depending on the horse. I'm pretty sure David knows his horse better than you do.

I also never said I thought stock horses were dead or life less or didnt spook, did you even read my post? Where did I say or insinuate that? I've ridden some very sharp, very sensitive, quick reacting quarter horses but the mind is different. I've loved the quarter horses I've worked with because they're quick thinking, sensitive and very smart but the processing is different. I don't know how to explain the difference, it's something you'd have to feel and work with to understand. It's a different brain type. For example I have aspergers and my brain is wired differently than someone who is considered "normal or neurotypical." I have a different learning process, I approach situations from a different perspective, my emotional range and response to emotions is different. That's the kind of difference I'm talking about, it's not better or worse but it is different. 

I'll also tell you right now how David was handling his horse in that situation was quite appropriate and well done, simply because you can't see the aids he's using and don't understand his method or reasoning, doesn't mean it's wrong. I would never be arrogant enough to think I know what you do about training a reining horse or a western pleasure horse, so why do you somehow think you know so much more about dressage or how to ride a dressage horse than an olympic, world class rider? Please tell me what dressage horses you've trained and to what level. What have you done that makes you more qualified to evaluate David's horse than he does or Robert Dover or his team of top class horsemen and riders?


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I think you entirely missed the point of my post. How you approach a situation is going to be different depending on the horse. I'm pretty sure David knows his horse better ?


While I will admit, your comment about stock horses tweaked me a little, I am not really talking to you.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

I think what we are all agreeing on here is that there are varying degrees of sensitivity that need to be handled in different manners. What works for me and Izzie may not work for others. Clearly I read the situation wrong when I watched the video in how he handled it. I'm also not at the Olympic level, nor do I have dreams of being there at any point.

There are hot, sensitive horses no matter the breed or discipline. I think you, Kevin and Cassie, are on a similar page, just the wording is off. Both are saying arena work can have some... harrowing moments. Both are saying that because of conditioned responses you were able to get through some situations.

What I do have a problem with, is the term experienced riders being in quotes. I by no means classify myself as an experienced rider as I feel there is always room to improve. But still, I agree with Sarah. It comes across like a slur when quoted like that.

And now I'm just rambling :lol: I think a lot of us are on the same page here.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If any of this, is directed towards me, I never once stated any qualification of riding a dressage horse. but was referring back to the posts on the value of having body control, on a horse, along with all the other factors that create a good horse, such as experience, trust ect, and the dressage horse being posted in the first place, to show that high level of training, did not prevent ahrose from freaking out-which I agree with, but again, that training is not one and the same as having some simple body control on horse, so really has no relevance, far as body control, used in the context of this post
Also, as many here most likely know, the more you hang onto a horse that is getting on the 'muscle', the hotter he will get
My post, concerning that dressage horse, was merely to point out, that upper level training, which involves straightness, engagement, is not one and the same, as having some body control on a hrose that you ride out, esp young green horses, control that uses the opposite of engagement and straightness, to help diffuse an attempted buck or bolt.
Never suggested you resort to it, esp at an Olympic level compitition, and it certainly looks more 'professional;, to try and ride a hrose through his issues, then to even think of schooling ahorse at such a venue, esp if that horse never was taught body control exercises in the first place
You might never need body control esp if never riding hroses out, until they are very seasoned, as I certainly rode hroses out for years without it, esp when I was younger
My sole point was, to have body control on a horse, is just one more tool, along with solid training foundation, experience, trust ect, and that a horse can be schooled to a very high level, yet freak out, and that the advanced schooling the hrose has, able to perform upper movements, is not one and the same, as what is referred to as body control, as shown in those videos by Larry Trocha, videos where he talks of different spooks, using body control,to get ahrose;s mind back on you, to prevent an attempted spook or bolt, by making it difficult for the hrose to do so, and not videos dealing with how to train a reiner or a cowhorse, or any horse, for that matter


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> I often have had cattle bounding up to the fence, riding down the road in spring, on young hroses that are not exposed to cattle, and that horse is not ready to ride out, JMO


When walking my dogs, I frequently come across riders who are out in public on horses who are afraid of dogs - seriously, if you know your horse has a prob with something - or don't know what they're like - riding on a public road is probably not the safest thing to do. Mind you, with 'spooking', I do also see that as with dogs on lead, it seems to come down to the handler's reactions more so, as to how the animal reacts.

Try a spitting, screaming, pirouetting(& surely carnivorous) Alpaca From Hell! Wasn't phased when a friend said 'be careful, there are alpacas in this paddock we're riding past' - he's met them before, pretty much unflappable with anything 4 legged(it's only 2 legged males he has a tad of an issue with). Famous last... thoughts, as this screaming, whirling dervish came hurtling down the hill at us. :eek_color: I was glad there was a fence in between us, because I think this thing would have torn strips off us both if it could! I was glad also I had good control in a halter that day!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

It is all a matter of a rider/handler knowing the horse they are riding. 

Some horses will freeze in a situation, ready to spin and run away, others might just stop with the 'nope, no way' attitude. To a person watching both might seem the same but to the order they should feel the difference. The first, a pat, a wither scratch and firm aids will get it past a situation, the second needs a stronger aid in the form of a hard boot or even use of a stick to let it know that he cannot make decisions. 

Each animal is an individual and should be treated as such. 

Smilie would train her horses very differently to me especially with the riding sode of it but, I do know that if she came and rode one of my horses or I hers, we would both have the ability to adapt our methods to suit the horse.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Barefoot if possible, shoes if needed.

Bitless if possible, bits if needed.


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## Joost (Dec 1, 2016)

When I go trail riding the first part is thru some heavy traffic. The extra amount of control that You have with a bit is what I need in That situation. When where in the dunes / woods there is no need for the amount of control. So I see it as environment depended also.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm still struggling to get my head around the idea that a horse that's good enough to compete at Olympic level dressage standard and a rider that's also at the same level don't know anything about body control.
Hw do you think he gets the horse to perform all of those moves? Telepathy?
Unbelievable!!
He's not exactly a novice rider or someone that isn't used to dealing with young horses and challenging horses. He's currently in partnership with Nicholas Fyffe who I saw doing a Clinic earlier this year - an exceptionally talented rider who had no worries about getting on the horses in the clinic to show how it should be done
Marcus Fyffe Dressage - Marcus Fyffe Dressage


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't consider someone with only 7 years in horses and no formal training to be 'experienced'. A little bit knowledgeable to be sure, as long as they're not denigrating 500 years of horsemanship or making sarcastic and demeaning comments about some of the foremost trainers and riders in the business. Those people didn't get where they were by doing it wrong, especially those in Olympic and professional competitions.


EVERYONE can benefit from professional training, regardless of how naturally talented they _believe_ themselves to be.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Maybe the 'experienced rider' needs to be in quotes because people have varying opinions on what counts as experienced
You can be experienced riding well schooled reliable horses but totally inexperienced at riding a young or difficult horse
I've learnt over the years to take the words "I'm an experienced rider' with a very large helping of salt because too many people come to grief because they aren't anything like as experienced as they think they are


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I'm still struggling to get my head around the idea that a horse that's good enough to compete at Olympic level dressage standard and a rider that's also at the same level don't know anything about body control.
> Hw do you think he gets the horse to perform all of those moves? Telepathy?
> Unbelievable!!
> He's not exactly a novice rider or someone that isn't used to dealing with young horses and challenging horses. He's currently in partnership with Nicholas Fyffe who I saw doing a Clinic earlier this year - an exceptionally talented rider who had no worries about getting on the horses in the clinic to show how it should be done
> Marcus Fyffe Dressage - Marcus Fyffe Dressage


I will try and explain. 
I realize that an Olympic dressage hrose has a lot of body control on him, as no other way would he be able to perform all those maneuvers, but we are not talking about the SAME thing, when the word,'body control;, is used, to ride a green horse out, able to diffuse a buck,ride that horse past something ect by taking the head away, disengaging the hips
Therefore, my sole point was that I perfectly agree a very highly trained horse, who responds to the lightest cues, performing upper level movements, can still freak out, and just disagree with the point that the video thus shows body control, does not work, when we are talking 'apples and oranges', with that body control I am speaking about, not being the training one rides a upper trained hrose with, but the type one can use to diffuse a buck or a bolt, by taking the head away, disegaging the hips-body control you can use on a horse not even highly trained


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

To be clear, I have every respect for the high degree of training any upper level horse has, training where he responds to the lightest cues, but where engagement and correct body alignment is sought, and that is an entirely different assciation with the term,'body control, as used in an emergency situation to make athletic maneuvers difficult for a horse, by taking that correct alignment and hips away from him, and no refinement of any aids, and which not every horse needs, but which can be an additional handy tool, for someone just wishing to ride a green horse out
I also never implied that the rider, David,, i believe, did not ride that horse as he should have been ridden , nor that both he and the hrose aren't excellent examples of high level of training, JUST, that that example, had nothing to do with the type of body control I was talking about, which can be handy, to have on the average recreational horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Bare with me, as I was making lunch for my brother, visiting from Ontario, I though of another way to try and make what I am saying clearer, and also to make it very crystal, that I have every respect to that Dressage horse, and the high level of that type of body control, needed, in any upper level, where that conditioned response. allows very light aids, and where the hrose is put in the best position to take those responses easy, and where that response depends on training, and not on any physical advantage for the rider

The type of body control I am talking about, might include some of that, as in using leg yielding, counterflex, ect, but it also implies creating a conditioned response, which puts the horse in a form that makes it difficult for him to run through aids, through physical advantage created by being able to take the head away, disengage the hips,something that also has to be taught, before you use them in an emergency situation


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - So what you're saying is that a rider of David's caliber isn't capable of handling a green horse and that he doesn't how to ask for a leg yield or how to counterflex a horse because he doesn't have enough experience to do that?
Do you think that dressage horses are born 'ready to go'?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

So... I've been reading through this thread and I'm a little confused. They labeled that video "horse freaks out". That wasn't a freak out. I think it was a little bit of a fit, like someone didn't want to perform and to me, the rider didn't ever look out of control or even look like he was struggling to maintain control. He looked to me like he didn't want to leave the ring until they worked through the episode. At that point he'd already blown his ride so why not make the best of it and leave the ring on a rider win?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Smilie - So what you're saying is that a rider of David's caliber isn't capable of handling a green horse and that he doesn't how to ask for a leg yield or how to counterflex a horse because he doesn't have enough experience to do that?
> Do you think that dressage horses are born 'ready to go'?



You just don't get as to what I am saying, do you?

I said, the 'standard body control you might combine, like counter flex and leg yield, as STANDARD training, which you can also apply BUT the body control I am SPECIFICALLY taking about, is as per that Video by Larry Trocha, which you can put on any horse, with some time on him, and that you can use in an emergency situation,as in riding out, and do not need upper level training, to get control using those methods.

_I am not disputing the ability of David to control a horse < Just that the body control < Specifically that I am referring to < Is to be able (let me rephrase, wish to use) To take the head away < Or disengage the hips. It has zero to do with training of any upper level response aids._

I said, in addition you might also apply standard training response, like leg yielding and counter bend,giving the face and poll, _Not that David Can't do that > I am not stupid!

The responses, before that dressage horse, were focused on spooking, riding horses past stuff, where I agreed that at times, you just work on experience, exposure, at times, stop and let the horse assess things, at times to use STANDARD body control, taught any well broke horse, thus to give int he poll and counterflex, plus also have on the horse,the body control that makes bolting, bucking difficult, to be able to shut those down after a spook.

I like to use the term body control, versus the one rein stop, as it is more along the line as to what Larry trocha shows

While David , Im sure is very capable of just riding a horse through stuff, using standard aids and his riding skill, it can benefit the ORDINARY recreational rider, t obe able to take the head away and disengage the hips , to perhaps save their hide at some point.

If you would have read what I said, versus immediately assuming I was discrediting dressage, what i was trying to say, would perhaps have become evident to you

I mean,I really tried, but you just would not really attempt to understand as to what i was saying. Frustrating!_


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well this greenhorn is still learning through all this. I've seen several references to disengaging hindquarter. What the heck is that? I finally highlighted and searched Google. Wow! Yet another disputed area on the finer points.

One says it's all about the front. When you get to the hind, it's set up and done, pretty much. One says it should be called a yield on the hinds. No no, when their legs are apart they are ready for impulsion. Crossing the hinds disengages that.

Is there nothing in the horsey world that is not controversial?

And here is an example of how "cueless" I am. Hondo has been gaining a little weight and I have been needing to push harder and harder to find his ribs to check how fat he is. He won't let me push that hard. He whips his hind end completely away from me.

So guess what? I've just learned that Hondo was trained to disengage/yield his hind quarters.

Now I gotta go look up to see how ya get'em to turn on their hinds. Would that be disengaging the fores?

Next time I saddle up I'll try the disengagement with a bitless. (trying to stay on topic here)


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

If Hondo disengages in a halter...........what is the difference with a bitless bridle setup?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

sarahfromsc said:


> If Hondo disengages in a halter...........what is the difference with a bitless bridle setup?


I think it may depend on the flavor of the bitless bridle.

Hondo flexes his head to the Cook's much more readily than with a halter it seems.

Much of my riding is on really technical and difficult trails but now that I've got foot care pretty well down it's time to start learning some of the finer points of riding. They would be handy in and about the corrals but out in the hills not as much. Horses that travel in this area almost have to be born in the area or similar. Others from out of area often just can't hack it. So when the negotiating gets really tricky, I give him all the slack he wants for close examination of where he thinks the next foot be best placed.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I just thought if he was already disengaging in the halter, the bitless wouldn't be that much difference. Like mine disengaging whether in a halter, bosal, of snaffle.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Oh I got it. You sort of figured I had him in a halter when I was poking his ribs. Nope. That was unrestrained without a halter. He is seldom in a halter unless I'm leading him in from his 60 acre field. And then I usually carry the halter out there and carry it back while he walks along beside me.

I trim his feet, mount Ground Control shoes, or install boots, all unrestrained. Sometimes I'll boot him while he eats before he gets his bridle.

So he was disengaging without a halter but that was not under saddle. That's yet to be tried. 

And the thing about the trails around here is that a horse has to learn to read the terrain to get around over it. It just takes a lot of experience in the area to do that.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

sarahfromsc said:


> If Hondo disengages in a halter...........what is the difference with a bitless bridle setup?


Looking at this again I'm wondering if you're suggesting that a bitless bridle is more or less no different that a halter?

Probably not asking that, but if so there is a lot of difference. A halter more or less slides up the nose except on the ground when pulled sideways or ahead.

A Cook's has a certain adjustment of the nose band to prevent that slipping from happening as much. If the rein is really pulled on there is some down pressure on the poll, against the side of the face, under the chin, plus a slight increase in tension around the nose band area.

I am not familiar with other bitless bridles but there is a world of difference between a Cook's and a halter.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I thought you had him haltered hence I wondered why would there be a problem disengaging while bridled, whether bitless or otherwise.

I can poke mine in the ribs to check for excess baggage and he does not disengage. But, I can look at his hip and he does.

Kinda interesting how that worked out. I believe horses learn intent. But that is a whole nother can of worms ......lolol


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

sarahfromsc said:


> I believe horses learn intent.


In my limited experience, no doubt about it.

So it sounds like where to push varies with different trainers? I read that the hand push was to be in the same location where the heel would push

So you use the hip? Or is that just with ground work?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yielding hips, as a turn on the forehand, is not one and the same, as disengaging the hips, while also taking the head away.
No reason you could not do it with a bittless bridle, as well as with a halter
When you use it as a method to control a buck or bolt, on a horse that first has been taught to give his head, you are simply making it difficult for the horse to either bolt or buck. It is a little different then just using a one rein stop, as you might use a set release, set release, so the hrose can;t just brace
If you watch those tow videos by Larry Trocha on spooking, actual video will explain much more then any words
When you just ask a horse to do a turn on the forehand, leaving his head and neck evenly between the reins, it is not called disengaging the hips, but just yielding hips , or turn on forehand
Thus, a turn on the haunches, where the horse yields his front end, is also not called disengagement, but a turn on the haunches
Disengagement is not a maneuver that is trained simply using correct cues for a regular accepted trained maneuver,with the horse responding simply to ingrained cues, but taking the head away and forcing that disengagement, and thus putting the horse in a position where it is not really possible for him to engage, as he must, to either buck or try to bolt


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I spent best part of 40 years starting young horses. In the last thirty years _I have never backed and ridden a horse for the first time in the arena_ I have always ridden them straight out on the roads and tracks generally on their own. 

Of all those horses, the ones that had never had anyone start them, not one ever offered to buck, spook or bolt. Yes, they would try it on as they got fitter but it was never anything more than a try in to see what a rider's reaction would be and a feeling very well factor. 

I am talking about mostly TBs potential racehorses, in serious work to get them fit for the track. Horses that have to learn to gallop in a herd without tanking off, most on three hard feeds a day and stabled other than when they were worked. 


Yes, there were the 'difficult' ones, they were my forte. Getting the ground work right, mostly through long reining them out and about, standing them at a high mounting block whilst fiddling with them, got them use to the shadow above their heads, meant they just accepted the rider. 

Riding them straight out they were looking ahead, going places where they had been long reined, they were thinking of other things rather than the new feeling of a rider in their backs. 

Problems arose when horses had been started and messed up. Remedials always took a lot more time.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Hondo said:


> In my limited experience, no doubt about it.
> 
> So it sounds like where to push varies with different trainers? I read that the hand push was to be in the same location where the heel would push
> 
> So you use the hip? Or is that just with ground work?


If I'm correct, and Sarah can correct me if I'm wrong, she isn't pushing the hindquarters over. She is focusing on the hip with her eyes, and the horse moves them. The best people we have in our trail in hand classes are able to do that, and it's pretty incredible really. That would be where her comment about them learning intent comes from, if I'm correct.


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

farmpony84 said:


> So... I've been reading through this thread and I'm a little confused. They labeled that video "horse freaks out". That wasn't a freak out. I think it was a little bit of a fit, like someone didn't want to perform and to me, the rider didn't ever look out of control or even look like he was struggling to maintain control. He looked to me like he didn't want to leave the ring until they worked through the episode. At that point he'd already blown his ride so why not make the best of it and leave the ring on a rider win?


That was most definitely a freak out. I read a post from someone that actually attended that event. She said what you can't see in that video is that it started pouring shortly after the "hot" horse entered the arena. The camera men then proceeded to pull out large orange tarps to cover their cameras and they were whipping about in the downpour and people in the audience were screaming and popping umbrellas all over the place. With all factors included, I highly doubt this horse was just trying to get out of work...


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Tazzie said:


> If I'm correct, and Sarah can correct me if I'm wrong, she isn't pushing the hindquarters over. She is focusing on the hip with her eyes, and the horse moves them. The best people we have in our trail in hand classes are able to do that, and it's pretty incredible really. That would be where her comment about them learning intent comes from, if I'm correct.


Yep, I sorta got that, but in the recent reading I've done on training for disengagement the instructions were to work on the area behind the cinch where the heel would press when disengaging from the saddle. So Sara's comment about the hip made me wonder if there were different methods/approaches to disengagement.

I'd also be curious how Sara first trained the horse that will move when she looks at his hip.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Tihannah said:


> That was most definitely a freak out. I read a post from someone that actually attended that event. She said what you can't see in that video is that it started pouring shortly after the "hot" horse entered the arena. The camera men then proceeded to pull out large orange tarps to cover their cameras and they were whipping about in the downpour and people in the audience were screaming and popping umbrellas all over the place. With all factors included, I highly doubt this horse was just trying to get out of work...


Either way, my point was - while reading these posts I got the feeling that folks felt as though the rider were not advanced enough to handle the situation or didn't react properly. I never felt the rider was out of control, in danger of losing control, or at all put out by the horses actions. I felt the rider did a fine job.

PS - that wasn't a "freak out" in my book. A freak out to me is quite a bit more than that. I thought the horse was explosive and the situation could have turned badle had the rider not maintained composure. Still think the rider did a good job.


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

I agree. I wouldn't have been eating dirt if it'd been me on that horse in that situation! Lol


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Hondo said:


> Yep, I sorta got that, but in the recent reading I've done on training for disengagement the instructions were to work on the area behind the cinch where the heel would press when disengaging from the saddle. So Sara's comment about the hip made me wonder if there were different methods/approaches to disengagement.
> 
> I'd also be curious how Sara first trained the horse that will move when she looks at his hip.


Physical and verbal cues mated with repetition, and praise. Just like backing and ground tying. When he is to close to the gate when I need to bring him in I look at his chest he backs up. Sometimes I have to offer the word back, but he backs up so the gate can be swung open.

I can put halter on both ground tie, open the gate, walk back to them, pick up the lead ropes and walk them to the barn. I hate gate crowding and gate dashing. My pet peeves.

Ground tying, is the same. I drop the lead rope and say 'stand' while grooming, they lean forward, I put them back and say 'stand'. They move the right hoof right, I move it back and say stand. It builds from there. Then I can go to the tack room and they stand. Or I can go to the bathroom and they stand. Building blocks and knowing Rome was not built in a day is the key.

Now, the new Dales I was given knows nothing. But through repetition he is getting it. i don't make it a 'thing'. It is part and parcel of moving them in and out of the barn, grooming them, tacking up, working with feet. So, it is not like I make a specific time and say, 'I am going to work on this.' It is done daily while I do the mundane tasks of horse keeping.

Putting on a halter and attaching that lead rope means training time, even if I am just grooming them or bringing them in to eat. They know may intent and I am consistent. I am not a trainer, nor even the best horse person in the world, but I am consistent.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hondo said:


> I'd also be curious how Sara first trained the horse that will move when she looks at his hip.


There are times when this can be done with mental communication. I would muck the horses out whilst they were eating. If they were stood on a pile of droppings I could move them with picturing them doing just that. 

My last horse and one of the hunters if they were stood with one foot on a pile of poop and I pictured removing that pile, would just lift and hold up the leg that was in the pile, back or front.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@sarahfromsc This sounds much like how I've handled Hondo. He will stand at the gate, etc.

When you are training a horse's hip to move over do you ever use actual striking with a rope in that area or just pressure until he moves over?

I have not really done anything that could be called specific training with Hondo. Just day to day routine and doing stuff more or less the same. He seems to just figure stuff out.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Hondo said:


> @sarahfromsc This sounds much like how I've handled Hondo. He will stand at the gate, etc.
> 
> When you are training a horse's hip to move over do you ever use actual striking with a rope in that area or just pressure until he moves over?
> 
> I have not really done anything that could be called specific training with Hondo. Just day to day routine and doing stuff more or less the same. He seems to just figure stuff out.


When I get back from barn chores and clearing a down tree, I will open a new thread and answer, since I have hijacked this one.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> Either way, my point was - while reading these posts I got the feeling that folks felt as though the rider were not advanced enough to handle the situation or didn't react properly. I never felt the rider was out of control, in danger of losing control, or at all put out by the horses actions. I felt the rider did a fine job.
> 
> PS - that wasn't a "freak out" in my book. A freak out to me is quite a bit more than that. I thought the horse was explosive and the situation could have turned badle had the rider not maintained composure. Still think the rider did a good job.


No, that was never the message, far as the rider not able to handle the horse, as I have been in a show situation where a horse got 'hot', and just tried to ride it out.
Happened to be atrail course , set up outside. I won the open junior horse trail, a very complicated pattern, and then rode that same pattern in the amateur trail class. Unfortunately for me, a train went by, blowing that whistle, and while I still got that pattern ridden, we took out a few obstacles, s myhorse was sure notbwaiting ofr me, far a guidence for each foot step, focused on that train
The ONLY point, far as I was concerned, was that that video did not confirm that body control, used /trained, put on a horse to enable that horse to perform at very upper levels,does not mean that the body control we discussed previously, which you might use in an emergency situation, does not work
That was my sole point. We are talking apples and oranges, not ability of the rider to ride a horse when he gets hot, nor negating the upper training on that horse, that usually has him reacting/listening to invisible cues, performing advanced maneuvers flawlessly, and maneuvers that takes years of training to develop
I only meant, that just because a horse highly trained, can still freak, dose not mean that the basic body control, one might put on the average recreational horse, not nearly trained tot hat level, might not come in handy, for the average rider, not one at the level of David, but the AVERAGE rider
That body control simply involves being able to take the head away, and disengage the hips , shuting the horse down
Whether a horse even attempts to buck, when first started, depends a lot on training, breed/bloodlines, so is not really relevant.
I always tried to start horses, so that they never learned to buck with a saddle,but sometimes 's..t' happens
It is also true that some stock horse lines are noted for having some 'buck' in them, which is not noted so much in TBs, not that this point has nay true relevence to the,thread
The pully rein was taught to calvery riders, which is just another example of not regular training per say, but an emergency tool, and that is the body control I am talking about.
You might never need it, but does it hurt for the average recreational rider, to perhaps have that tool, along with all the other ones?
I mean, I know that in some places, the emergency dis mount is taught. The pully rein is another example of emergency technique, just as is the body control that I am talking about in this context, and not the high degree of 'regular body control, put on an upper performance horse, who has way more 'standard, body control, then the average trail horse will,ever come close to
Is this finally clear?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

WHy are we now talking about various training,techniques to ASK a horse to yield his hips? IT has ZERO, to do with making him yield his hips, while taking the head away, in an emergency situation!
No wonder these threads get so off topic, convoluted and confused!
I mean, I can have my horse tied in the barn isle, look at his hip, say over, and the horse moves his hips over, without ever being touched
I show in trail, so I can assure you that I can do both turns on the forehand, turns on the haunches, sidepass, with invisible leg cues
I can show a horse in showmanship and halter, purely off the halter, having him back lightly, set up, move any foot, do a turn on the haunches, and never touch the horse.
All this has nothing to do, with not asking, but taking the head away, forcing the hips to disengage, in an emergency


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> @sarahfromsc This sounds much like how I've handled Hondo. He will stand at the gate, etc.
> 
> When you are training a horse's hip to move over do you ever use actual striking with a rope in that area or just pressure until he moves over?
> 
> I have not really done anything that could be called specific training with Hondo. Just day to day routine and doing stuff more or less the same. He seems to just figure stuff out.


 No, you do not strike a horse, to ask him to move his hips over, either on the ground, or while riding
You can start on the ground, just pressing where your leg will be riding, and just enough to get that try, and immediately reward or release, so as he takes one step=then build on that. 
I don't train with ropes, bats or whips
Horses also learn, though correct training, to associate leg position, with body part asked to yield. Thus, for a turn on the forehand, you use your leg slightly behind the cinch, to ask those hips to move
Rein against the neck, and , backed with leg, slightly ahead of the cinch, tells a horse to do a turn on the haunches
Both legs at cinch, with alight touch, can ask a horse to move ahead, or pick up a jog. 
On the ground, you can combine a smooch, or over, with a touch, and eventually just skip any hand pressure, using only a smooch and a look, or the word, over and alook
In my avatar, Smilie is doing a pretty tight 360 in box. You alternate a turn on forhand steps, with turn on haunches, to keep from hitting a rail, which is a fault


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Metal gates have replaced rope gates at breed shows, for the pure fact that those metal gates are free standing,often unstable in the sand, and some wreaks have occurred, with horses getting hung up in those gates, esp when pattern asks for a back through. I have ridden enough steel free standing gates though, in years previous
You basically work arope gate, same as a steel gate

Charlie




Smilie


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> I can have my............
> 
> so I can assure you that I can...........
> 
> I can show a horse......


umm, what was the topic again?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> I have ridden enough steel free standing gates though, in years previous
> You basically work a rope gate, same as a steel gate


Doesn't count unless you have to close the gate before the cut cattle get out or the remaining get in. Going through gates with no dogs barking and no cattle jumping around?

Sounds like kindergarten. Now do all the above in a Cook's bitles (on topic) and you've got something going.

Do they ever bend up the gate latches on purpose so you have to lean over and use both arms to get the latch unstuck?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Is this finally clear?


Not at all.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Doesn't count unless you have to close the gate before the cut cattle get out or the remaining get in. Going through gates with no dogs barking and no cattle jumping around?
> 
> Sounds like kindergarten. Now do all the above in a Cook's bitles (on topic) and you've got something going.
> 
> Do they ever bend up the gate latches on purpose so you have to lean over and use both arms to get the latch unstuck?


What is your point , Hondo? I don't open gates just in trail classes, but on trail rides, and helping my friend, who runs over 100 cows
I have even opened barb wire gates off a horse, although I don't recommend it as regular practice
A gate'fixed ' by posts in the ground, and where you don't loose points ,loosing that gate for a second, for going to two hands on the reins, is way easier. 
Unless you have tried both, how can you even judge?

How about kids running along the bleachers? What's the difference if you are riding in a Dr Cook, or one handed, on a loose rein???
When you show, you ride by show rules, and you would not be able to ride a horse of Hondo' age in aDr COOK, although you could show him in trail in a bosal, if he was five and under
I don't know as to why that Dr Cook somehow makes you feel you have some greater level of communication with Hondo. Great, if you like it, but then I have seen colt starters in those colt starting trainer chellenges, ride colts with 4 days on them, in a large arena, in just a halter, at all gaits, working obsatcles, dragging obstables, and working a cow

This is Steve Rother, on acolt with about 4 hours on her, showing what is possible, although he does not recommend that sped in his regular training approach-just riding with ahalter

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheHorseteacher


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Not at all.


Not surprised!

Not clear that taking head away, making hips disengage, has nothing to do with regular training used to cue a horse to move hips over, either ridden or standing, leaving the head aleigned
Don't understand that a horse can be trained to respond to very high degree of body cues, but that is not the same as basic 'emergency type body control, one might use, to make it difficult for a horse to try and bolt or buck?

Well, as they say, learning about horses , is a life long process, and it might become clearer to you over time, and maybe not


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> What is your point , Hondo?


Gee Smilie, I was just trying to provide more information regarding the possibilities with bitless for the OP?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

danielbenham said:


> As someone who is passionate about ethical equitation I am amazed at the lack of robust scientific evidence available to support both sides of the bit Vs bitless debate that is rife amongst the horsey folks. Do you think more research is needed? and if sufficient evidence for better welfare was given do you think the big competition associations (FEI) should adapt the rules so that bitless was allowed in Dressage?


I think that it would be neat for the shows to add bitless classes, however nothing moves quickly in the horse industry. I know that the reiners are incorporating bitless routines into their freestyles....


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> I think that it would be neat for the shows to add bitless classes, however nothing moves quickly in the horse industry. I know that the reiners are incorporating bitless routines into their freestyles....


Yes, reining free style is not counted towards NRHA points, thus regualr rules, far as reining, don't apply
You thus get the entire gauntlet in free style reining, from completely tackless, as per Stacy Westfall, to people riding with two hands on a curb
That is why I asked, could that also not be done in free style dressage, far as allowing bittless riding
Beyond that, regular reining classes certainly have bittless, as per bosal, but the horse has to be 5 and under, as horses older then that, are expected to be up in the bridle, ridden one handed
Many schooling type shows,and even breed shows, have classes where green or senior horses can be ridden with two hands, either in a curb or a snaffle, but those classes are not pointed classes, any more then walk trot classes
I personally don't see the problem. If a horse rides well , on a loose rein, why does it matter if he is just packing a curb? It is the very fact that horses shown completely off of the indirect rein, one handed, allows the bridle to be dropped completely, in all those bridle-less demos in the first place, that they are already, mainly riding off of seat and legs alone, so completely dropping that bridle, is not big step
That may well differ, English, where that horse is always ridden on some contact, far as bit and bittless


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here is Craig Johnson, brildeless reining demo,. He still has aneck rope


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here is Craig Johnson, brildeless reining demo,. He still has aneck rope
Don't just assume that a horse, shown with abit, can't be ridden bittless, and sometimes better than many bittless horses


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Brildeless trail






Mountain trail, brildeless (not a speed event, this time,as in the former, I posted, a way back


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Tried to delete this post., sorry,


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hackamore working cowhorse (bosal) First the dry work, then the fence work with cows
These are jr horses, most likely 3 year olds, and not senior horses


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I showed Ri in a bosal as a 2 and 3 year old and then moved to a snaffle as a 4 and 5 year old before moving on to the curb. I think the OP was asking about a class that all horses could ride in. That would be a bitless dressage class for any age horse. I think that is the discussion the OP was looking for. 

I personally don't see why a well trained dressage horse couldn't do a bitless class (if one existed - which it doesn't' to the best of my knowledge) but what one would have to consider is the "bitless bridle". 

Hackamores are bitless and so are bosals BUT... they DO have pressure points that when used incorrectly in my opinion would be not at all gentle or kind. Infact, it could be downright painful and I think you would run into that with any bitless bridle. I think people get confused sometimes thinking that a bit or spurs or whatever device is cruel and painful when the truth is, the RIDER is what makes most ANY device cruel and painful. A well trained horse with a well trained rider isn't going to be subjected to pain when all the ducks are in the right row.

So the question should really be changed to something more like can you ride a dressage horse in a bridle-less class (if one existed). That's where it would be pure training and pure skill.

Just my two cents.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hondo said:


> @sarahfromsc This sounds much like how I've handled Hondo. He will stand at the gate, etc.
> 
> When you are training a horse's hip to move over do you ever use actual striking with a rope in that area or just pressure until he moves over?
> 
> I have not really done anything that could be called specific training with Hondo. Just day to day routine and doing stuff more or less the same. He seems to just figure stuff out.


I like to allow horses to figure things out for themselves. When I rode the babies out for the first time they have to open and close gates. They have seen it done when ponied out but never had to do it for themselves. Some just do it others need to be given time to work it out. 

As for opening and closing gates - of which there are many in the U.K., most are well hung and even have higher catches making it easier for riders, but some had dropped and need two hands to lift and drag to open and close so the horse has to be steady and obedient to the leg. 

As for excitement, it takes a good horse to open and hold open a gate when hounds are running and the rest of the field are charging through the gate!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

farmpony84 said:


> it could be downright painful and I think you would run into that with any bitless bridle.


Do you believe this holds for the crossunder bitless, and if so where do you believe the principle pain/pressure points would be?

I ask, of course, because I use a Cook's and would want to avoid any possibilities of pain.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't know much about those, just googled them to check out the pictures and it looks like the pressure point is under the jaw. 

The thing for you to remember though is, if you have soft hands and your horse is supple and gives to the pressure, then he isn't going to be in pain. If you are not jerking or holding but only asking then he's not going to be miserable. It really works that way with any bridle. You put pressure on, he gives, you reward by releasing pressure. As you and your horse become a team you end up using less and less pressure. Especially if you are not riding in a show-frame. If you are riding collected but in a more natural frame then eventually you will think it and he will do it. I do show my horses and I ride them for show using the "correct horse show person/horse show horse tools) but I also ride my horses for pleasure and believe it or not... I was NH before NH was cool!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Dr. Cook explains the pressure points are the nose, under the chin, side of face, and poll and that it is impossible to cause pain with the Cook's BB.

I agree that all other BB have the potential to cause pain and even broken noses, or so I've read.

I know the Cook's is a controversial piece of tack and the following quote from Dr. Cook will induce many denying head shakes, but here it is anyhow.

Quote: Using a bit, a rider cannot avoid contravening a tenant of the FEI that "the welfare of the horse is at all times paramount". http://www.blixxhorses.org/pdf/bitlessBridle.pdf

And this decidedly bitless nazi site. Benefits of Dr Cooks Bitless Bridle? now available in UK


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@farmpony84 BTW, I hope it didn't look like I was trying to "set you up" with the question.

I am sincerely interested in anybody's comments that believes the Cook's can cause pain and how.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> I showed Ri in a bosal as a 2 and 3 year old and then moved to a snaffle as a 4 and 5 year old before moving on to the curb. I think the OP was asking about a class that all horses could ride in. That would be a bitless dressage class for any age horse. I think that is the discussion the OP was looking for.
> 
> I personally don't see why a well trained dressage horse couldn't do a bitless class (if one existed - which it doesn't' to the best of my knowledge) but what one would have to consider is the "bitless bridle".
> 
> ...


Well, if you can ride a western horse, usually shown in abit, with nothing, why would you not also be able to show a dressage hrose that way?
I think it has nothing to do with skill, or training , as I am quite convinced that a horse who excelled the best, bittless, in dressage, just like western, would be soild in a bit first.
If you can absolutely show me, a dressage horse that has NEVER been ridden with a bit, show upper level competitiveness, I would be interested.
Yes, there are videos of dressage horses, doing flying changes,bittless, but unless that rider swears the hrose has never had any training in a bit, I remain doubtful
As Jaydee mentioned, 'traditional dressage, just like 'traditional western, has certain expectations , when a horse reaches a certain level of training which includes acceptance and correct response to a bit, as that involves a greater degree of 'education', then just riding a horse off his face
Far as a bosal, in has pressure points, as does the Dr Cook, with the bosal designed specificlly not to be an'end point in the horse;s education, like the Dr Cook.
The bosal is used to teach lightness in a young horse, along with the snaffle, so he graduates eventually to being ridden with more finesse, greater education, in abit, one handed
The Dr Cook is an endpoint onto itself, and not an intermediate training devise. Many horses, esp western horses, that expect complete release, when going correctly, don't like a Dr Cook, which does have constant pressure, with those cross under straps.
I guess there would be no harm in offering a bittless dressage class, but not all bittless bridles are the same, so, again rules needed.
Personally, I don't see a problem, not having bittless classes. If a horse is truly broke, you can ride him bittless all you want, train him bittless, but he should also have the education to being ridden with a bit, as per 'classic dressage expectations
Stacy Westfall certainly has no problem riding her reiners with regular tack, in regular reining classes, and then showing them bittless in free style


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Dr. Cook explains the pressure points are the nose, under the chin, side of face, and poll and that it is impossible to cause pain with the Cook's BB.
> 
> I agree that all other BB have the potential to cause pain and even broken noses, or so I've read.
> 
> ...


Ever here of research using a select population for their study?
Well, Dr COOK used race horses and polo ponies for his studies to prove bits caused harm. Those horses are all ridden with strong contact, and far as I know, he never did one study on a western horse, who graduated to being ridden one handed on a loos rein, in a curb
Yes, if you are going to hang on reins, balance on reins, then I agree that bittless will do way less damage.
On the other hand, horses ridden correctly, and trained correctly, with abit (I am mainly referring to western, and will let those that ride mainly English, give their own thoughts,, as there is a difference as to how bits are used, correctly, in those two disciplines ), by a rider with true feel, achieve a greater degree of finesse, riding with a bit, and, there is enough evidence, that many horses do not like the Dr Cook bridle, as it does have constant pressure, whether mild or not, and never that complete release,. 
A horse that has been taught to be very light, resents that fact, although, of course, horses never ridden with true lightness, accept in very readily, esp if they were never ridden/trained correctly using a bit


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Far as a bosal, in has pressure points, as does the Dr Cook,


The way in which this is written, the suggestion is that the Dr. Cook bridle has pressure points somewhat comparable to the bosal, which is patently false. Don't know that this was the intended indication, but felt it should be corrected in case anyone read it that way.



Smilie said:


> a Dr Cook, which does have constant pressure, with those cross under straps.


With slack reins the crossunder straps are hanging loose as are the reins. If the reins are being pulled on, there is contact across the horse's nose, under it's chin, up the side of it's face, and with slight downward poll pressure.

Otherwise, the Cook's has no more pressure points than a halter. And when the reins are pulled, the multiple pressure points that do exist are so many of such a high area that there is no more than a hugging effect anyhow. At least that's how mine is.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The following, is the main reason I see for having bittless dressage classes-for more novice riders:

'The biggest plus of a properly designed CBB, proponents say, is that it doesn't hurt the horse, even when used by novice riders. "The Bitless Bridle is forgiving of riders' rough hands," states Angelo Telatin, an international instructor in dressage, eventing, and show jumping, and faculty lecturer in the Equine Studies Department and Advisor/Coach for the Intercollegiate Dressage Team at Delaware 

Beginner riders often use the reins for balance, pull themselves up by the reins whilst they are learning to do a rising trot, etc.," observes Jahiel. "All of this is painful for the horses because by jerking, pulling, and waterskiing on the reins, the riders are putting strong and erratic pressure on the bit. The Bitless Bridle is a great boon to the horses that carry people who don't ride often, don't ride well, or simply haven't done enough riding to be balanced in their saddles. It can save horses a lot of unnecessary pain. With The Bitless Bridle, the riders have full control, but the horses are much more comfortable, as they are protected while the riders learn to balance themselves and achieve the body control that will keep them from using too-strong pressure or making inadvertent jerks or tugs at the reins."

Adds Cook, "The CBB is much safer for novice riders than a bit. A rider does not have to be skilled before he or she can use The Bitless Bridle correctly. Riders of all skills are less likely to trigger bolting with a CBB than with a bit."


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Cross-under family[edit]
Evidence of the concept of creating leverage by crossing the reins under a horse's jaw dates back just over 100 years. A bitted bridle with a cross-under design was patented by an individual with the surname McCleod in 1894.[citation needed] The first record of a cross-under bitless design that utilized nose, jaw, cheek and poll pressure, dates to the 1950s,[citation needed] about the same time that patents for the mechanical hackamore began to proliferate.[19] It was developed by an individual with the last name of Grimsley, allegedly designed for a group of rodeo bulldoggers in New Jersey.[citation needed] In 1980, the crossunder principle was part of a design by an individual named Woodruff, who obtained a patent for a halter. The first cross-under bitless bridle that utilized jaw and poll pressure that was patented and filed with the U.S. Patent Office was a 1988 design credited to Edward Allan Buck. The "Dr. Cook bitless bridle" arises from the 1988 design, and the Cook design was patented in the United States in 2001.[citation needed] Another version of the cross-under jaw/poll pressure bitless bridle is called the Spirit Bridle.

The disadvantages of these designs are the long way the rein has to travel to apply pressure and the slow release, as the reins are guided through rings on the side and go back from there to the rider's hand. Even if the rider lets go of the reins quickly, the reins slide back slowly. The pressure on the cheek can also cause the horse to tilt its head to escape it.

Designs applying poll pressure[edit]

A cross-under bridle.
In a cross-under bitless bridle, each rein connects to a strap that passes through a ring on the left side of the noseband and subsequently crosses under the horse's jaw and up the cheek on the opposite side, goes behind the ear and join the opposite rein at the poll.[20] Thus, pressure is applied to the bridge of the nose as well as to the branches of the lower jaw, cheek and poll joint.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Ever here of research using a select population for their study?


If you have research or know of any to back your personal claims I'd be interested in reading it.

Seriously.

I have, I believe, a fairly open mind but I'd need some hard evidence to debunk Dr. Cook's research beyond simple internet hearsay.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In the end, bittless is a choice, based on the decision of any rider and on the horse.
I think that there is place to lobby for bittless dressage classes to be added, but not to expect to ride bitless in established traditional dressage classes, where education of the horse, includes that education with a bit, and where a hrose is ridden by riders that have the hands ,and feel to achieve greater communication with a bit, not to mention, judging horses ridden bittless and with a bit, in the same class , can add another judging nightmare!

'One thing is for sure, no horse is the same, so if your horse is resisting the bit, has health issues that precludes the use of a bit, or you just feel like you’d like to use one, try it out and see how it works for you and your horse. Another thing to consider is that riders aren’t the same either. Beginner riders that may rely more heavily on reins for balance, etc., and so, a bitless bridle may be a good choice, while more advanced riders may feel that the bitless does not let them communicate as well with their horse.
One other third party summary:

Finally, another consideration in deciding on going bitless or bitted are the requirements of your particular discipline and style of riding. Show “rules” may require the use of a certain bit or the use of a bit at all. Be sure to check those requirements before deciding to invest in a bitless bridle.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> If you have research or know of any to back your personal claims I'd be interested in reading it.
> 
> Seriously.
> 
> I have, I believe, a fairly open mind but I'd need some hard evidence to debunk Dr. Cook's research beyond simple internet hearsay.


Are not polo ponies and race hroses, a select population?
Google, and you will find numerous human clinical trials, where select population was used, in part, to achieve expected/desired results


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> The disadvantages of these designs are the long way the rein has to travel to apply pressure and the slow release, as the reins are guided through rings on the side and go back from there to the rider's hand. Even if the rider lets go of the reins quickly, the reins slide back slowly. The pressure on the cheek can also cause the horse to tilt its head to escape it.


Dr. Cook answers your concerns on the first page, third column, of the first link. Quote: "A horse will respond to the pressure of a fly landing on it's face: A "hammer" in the mouth is overkill. End Quote His words not mine.

The straps up the face have vertical tension with very very little actual face pressure, even when pulled sort of hard. At least it's that way on mine.

So where did you hear this about a horse tilting it's head in an attempt to get away from face pressure?

One thing about the internet for all it's very wonderful values, if you decide on some conclusion, any conclusion, if you look hard enough you can find it on the internet.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here is one link
If you really research, read Dr Ben Goldarces bokk on |Bad Science', you will see how some drugs passed, getting favorable results, were tested on a select population, that were likly to give the results wanted.

The concept is similar, far as Dr Cook'sBB- he used horses ridden with strong bit contact, to prove his bit damage stance, thus he used a population, ensured to show what he wanted to show

I am not saying that the BB is not good for many horses, a good choice if you like it, just that I refute all the negatives he claimed, caused by bits, as He never used general population of horses, and certainly none ridden as I and many others do,on a loose rein, and a mouth educated progressively to a bit, correctly


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Dr. Cook answers your concerns on the first page, third column, of the first link. Quote: "A horse will respond to the pressure of a fly landing on it's face: A "hammer" in the mouth is overkill. End Quote His words not mine.
> 
> The straps up the face have vertical tension with very very little actual face pressure, even when pulled sort of hard. At least it's that way on mine.
> 
> ...


Sorry that was from a Wikpediia link on bittless bridles, and I did not give the link, but you can find it. I have to go feed my poor horses, ridden with bits !
Dr COOk is not an independent judge of his own invention!
His very words, 'hammer' in the mouth, shows a complete bias of bits, esp used correctly
It is because a horse can feel a fly on his hide, that he can, educated correctly, feel the slightest touch of a leg, or the suggestion of a rein cue, with finger tip signal, and certainly not ahammer. If anyone uses a bit like ahammer, I agree, they better grab a dr cook BB asp!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm sorry but I fail to see the connection between improper drug testing other than your personal claim that Dr. Cook does also.

He has done a lot of research. I'd like to see research that shows his research wrong.

He did research on countless skulls from numerous museums for bone spurs developed in the bit area. If that's not a general population I don't know what would be.

The OP is interested in bitless vs bit and I'm just trying to see that at least Cook's gets a fair shake. As far as some of the other bitless setups, I'd likely choose a three piece snaffle first, depending.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am not trying to say taht dr cook;s BB might not be a good choice for many, reasons to ride a horse bittless also a factor, but also that the stance bits are never a better choice, actually preferred by some horses, also true
Dr Hilary Clayton has done bit research for decades, and her stance is that she is not convinced that bittless is always better. There has also not been done any extensive research far as I know, to show any damage to body areas, used in bittless brildes
I am trying to convince no one to ride with a bit, find nothing wrong if someone decides to ride bittless, just the one sided views by many die hard bittless Nazis, that all bits are bad, all horses prefer to ride bittless and that you achieve better communication bittless, that all bittless brildes aremore humane, ect, as that is a
one sided view
There are several articles, listing both the pros and cons of bits and bitless
You can decide which is better for you, based on some of that input by , giving both sides equal un biased input, no vested interest, and then decide what is best

I don't know if I can link to another forum, where the Dr Cook BB was discussed, and including bone spurs, but I have copied this post, to give you someone else;s response to that study;

'The fellow that conducted that study sells the bitless bridles, so yes, that was a theory in search of confirmation and with loose protocols so the results would fit their advertisement for those bridles.

There have been previous bona fide studies where they determined when humans first started using bits by looking for defects in horse skeletons found where horses were known to have been used centuries ago.
So, yes, there is a bit of remodeling to jaws from having a bit touching there.
That doesn't necessarily mean bits are bad, any more than your own wrist remodeling as you age, from use, means you were abusing your wrists.

While there can be abuse that causes injury to mouths, that there be some bone spurs in the jaw doesn't necessarily mean abuse with bits happened or not, just that a bit was used.

I wonder if the good Dr will also check for spurs under the jaw, where his bitless bridle crosses and rubs them?
I bet that he will also find some remodeling there in horses ridden extensively with that kind of bridle.

We can find at times a bump on the nose of many western horses started with those thick rawhide braided hackamores, just from those bumping along on the nose if not adjusted very tight.
You can see the bump there into older age, it doesn't generally reabsorb as time passes.
That is why we make our own soft, used grass rope nose hackamores, that don't bump-bump-bump along.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dr. Clayton used x-rays and fluoroscopy that allowed her to see the horse react over time to the bit in its mouth and tension applied to the reins. Part of her work was to discuss fitting (the age old 'how many wrinkles) and thickness and bit selection for a particular horse. 

Here are two articles she wrote about it for USDF Connection:

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research...USDF_Dec05.pdf
http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research...06_Clayton.pdf

This is the master list of her USDF connection articles:
http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research...f-connection-1


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I don't see any possibilities of bone spurs on the lower jaw from the Cook's straps. I have a couple of horse skulls from the ranch. If you look at the area where the bit rests, there is a very narrow and almost sharp ridge on it that the bit rests upon.

The underside if the jaw bone is very wide and rounded with very little pressure on it ever except maybe with a beginner like me trying to stay mounted during a rodeo. But even then, not enough to ever cause a bone spur. I think that's reaching......

I just read that the bitless can in fact be used in advanced competition where a double bridle is required. Simply tie off the reins on the bit and use the bitless.

Also where a snaffle is required, this suggestion was made: An alternative approach to this problem, and the one that I commend to you, is to request permission from the judges to take part Hors Concours. This way you can use the Bitless Bridle and do not have to put any bit in your horse's mouth at all. You will be automatically eliminated but you will be scored. You will have the satisfaction of demonstrating to the judges and others how well your horse performs without a bit in the mouth (already one rider has been awarded the highest score!). The judges will become familiar with the new bridle and, in due course, will add their support to the pleas that are already being made for a rule change.

And I want to stress that I'm not a bitless nazi, I'm just trying to give equal time to Cook's.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

A few comments from the "Father of Dressage".

Quote: There will be those who regard Dr. Cook's recommendation of a crossover bitless bridle for dressage as being the height of heresy. Understanding that this suggestion will bring unrest to many who believe that use of a double bridle is an indispensable part of dressage, and that its use is sanctioned by the highest authorities, he calls as witness William Cavendish, Duke of Newcastle. In his 1743 classic on "The New Method of Dressing Horses" he writes, "it is not a piece of iron can make a horse knowing, for if it were, the bitt-makers would be the best horsemen: no, it is the art of appropriate lessons and not trusting to an ignorant piece of iron called a bitt; for I will undertake to make a perfect horse with a cavesson without a bitt, better than any man shall with his bitt without a cavesson; so highly is the cavesson, when rightly used, to be esteemed. I dressed a barb at Antwerp with a cavesson without a bitt, and he went perfectly well; and that is the true art, and not the ignorance and folly of a strange-figured bitt."


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

As I said, I will let the dressage people argue the bit versus bit, far as their discipline, as bitless and bits are used in a different concept, western, correctly
Many young western horses are started bittless (my son uses a halter), but the bosal being standard.
They then 'graduate to be ridden, by the time they are five, in a curb, and one handed. 
Thus, it is not as if they need that bit for control, as demonstrated by numerous bridless demos, but rather for finesse. I never use a cavasson (well, unless riding HUS ), so I am quite sure my horses would not like any constant nose pressure, however light, and since my curb strap is on loose, they are also used to no pressure under the chin, or under the jaws either
Actually, I would like to see ahorse, ridden Grand Prix, bittless-oh, lets go all the way, and make it brildeless!


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## danny67 (Nov 27, 2012)

If God didn't want us riding horses, He would not have invented bits.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Huh???


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

danny67 said:


> If God didn't want us riding horses, He would not have invented bits.


Yeah, & spose god invented spurs to kick horses, invented whips for us to hit things... must be a horrid, cruel sort of *[email protected]! :lol:


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

He looked down, and seeing what man had done, he visited Dr. Cook one night in his dreams.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

God might never have let the tree that produced Hippos, from dividing and producing Equus. He sure could have created a back more built to carry weight, thus a rider!
As for Dr Cook, he just got some bad vibes from bits, basing his theories and research on horses ridden with a great deal of strong and constant contact.
I don't think there is a bit versus bittless controversy among educated horsemen, but rather more of a debate on the proper use of either, based on education as to how to use either correctly, and not some blind revivalist stance (had to bring good old God in again )


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> I don't think there is a bit versus bittless controversy among educated horsemen



Wull, I reckon that leaves everyone that has posted out of the elite group of "educated horsemen" huh? 

Hello Smile! It's rain rain rain. I got nothing better to do. Would like to ride ride ride but I'm too sissy. Plus it'd be hard or the leather, right?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, Hondo, by us it is ice and more ice!
We escaped to Mexico for a week, when it was very cold, and came back to an extended Chinook
Even convinced hubby to ride down the road with me today, but should have put on hoof boots with studs! Luckily, Charlie is smart enough to know it is in her own best interest also, to not put in extra moves on icy footing!
As for my comment, It was meant to imply that I respect anyone that wishes to ride bittless, have started many horses bittless,,but I get rather tired of bits being bashed, with the idea that bittless is just better all the time, same as the entire barefoot debate
I do feel those that have ridden and trained enough horses, have feel, know how to educate a horse to a bit, have a more realistic view, far as bits being used , then someone who has just bought into the entire bittless mindset, and thus declares all bits to be cruel, with many of those same individuals happily riding in long shanked mechanical hackamores
The bittless phase is the elementary phase for many great training programs that eventually produce a 'bridle horse'
Nothing wrong with a horse staying in a bittless bridle, if that is what the horse and rider prefers, but is does not necessarily make it better, and some horses truly prefer to be ridden with a bit, o na loose rein, then in a Dr Cook, that never gives that clear and complete release


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

loosie said:


> I do think more scientific studies would be great! I'm not at all amazed that good studies are rare though, be that on bits or otherwise(could say the same about the lack of 'good science' on both sides re shoes), because it costs money and is not in most people's interest - particularly the makers of bits! If there were more 'evidence' that may well help sway some authorities, but changes there are far more down to popular opinion - power of the people, than hard science. Personally, the only reason I can think of to ban bitless in dressage comps is because those who use bits are frightened of being shown up by those who don't. ;-)


I'm not going to bother wading through pages of comments pro or con . It's one of those hot topics that get bantered around without anything positive to really come of it. Unlike things like the issues with shoes (e.g. reduces blood flow in the feet and lower legs, etc...which science has already proven) or weight carried (which gives the scientific results on the biochemical effects, explaining the science behind "why" long distance riders work to keep the weight carried down since we already knew from experience that it would have negative results before the ride was finished). In the case of bits it's hard to make a case . I ride without a bit, but that's no reflection on bits being bad. The bit is a tool. Just like a hammer. If a person beats their thumb bloody while trying to drive a nail into a board that doesn't make the hammer bad. Just means that person shouldn't be allowed to use one :rofl:. 

I do like loosie's comment though. Especially about the show industry. While I couldn't care less about showing it seems ridiculous to not allow someone to show without a bit. It has been demonstrated that a horse and rider can do everything required without a bit which does lead one to question what objection they can still have (other than since their horse can't do it no one should be allowed, they won stock in bit makers or "my brother-in-law sells bits" :rofl.

Anyway, bits are not inherently bad just because someone can't use it properly. I don't use them because over 40 years ago I realized that I don't need them, but that didn't suddenly make them bad for the people who do. It's a tool. It's a poor worker who blames the tool.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horses can be shown without bits, western. They are jr horses 5 and under
Western horses, are expected by the time they are 5, to be able to be shown one handed in a curb.
If you don;t show, then you can ride that senior horse western, two handed, in a snaffle, bittless or even in a curb
There are also novice classes, where any age horse can be shown two handed in any bit, and some classes being written for bittless.
At the same time, a judged class has to have a level playing field , and standards, so you can't have one horse showing bittless, using two hands, against ahorse showing one handed, on a loose rein, in a curb


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## ThoroughbredBug (Jan 18, 2017)

As a bridleless/tackless lover, I hope to eventually see bits disappear as a requirement. I've been to two shows (competed at one) that allowed you to perform without a bit, or even a bridle. Both were hosted by barns, not by an organization. One was at a barn I took lessons at, there were loads of kids doing flat classes, dressage tests, jump courses and trail courses in sidepulls or halters, two even had nothing! Not even a neck rope. The show I participated in was a jumping show at an old trainers barn, my gelding and I did three courses with no saddle and no neck rope or anything. We won two of those classes, placed third in the other due to a fussy horse tossing a rider. My gelding was a saint!  

That being said, I think a lot of the reason organizations are hesitant to not allow bitless is a control issue. They don't want riders horses getting out of hand and either hurting the rider or themselves, or the property, or other riders/horses, etc. That being said, that's a silly reason. ESPECIALLY when it's been proven that horses respond well to many other cues (seat, leg, voice, weight shifting, etc). Also, if the horse is alone in the area (reining, jumping, etc) and not with a dozen or more other horses. They are herd animals with a herd mentality, and if one acts up, others may too. If the horse is alone and contained they should have no reason to be picky about what you choose to do. :/ Unfortunately I think people have issues understanding just how well some horses listen to their riders without pulling on its face, and will be hesitant for a long time in the future to allow bitless/bridleless.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

ThoroughbredBug said:


> As a bridleless/tackless lover, I hope to eventually see bits disappear as a requirement. I've been to two shows (competed at one) that allowed you to perform without a bit, or even a bridle. Both were hosted by barns, not by an organization. One was at a barn I took lessons at, there were loads of kids doing flat classes, dressage tests, jump courses and trail courses in sidepulls or halters, two even had nothing! Not even a neck rope. The show I participated in was a jumping show at an old trainers barn, my gelding and I did three courses with no saddle and no neck rope or anything. We won two of those classes, placed third in the other due to a fussy horse tossing a rider. My gelding was a saint!
> 
> That being said, I think a lot of the reason organizations are hesitant to not allow bitless is a control issue. They don't want riders horses getting out of hand and either hurting the rider or themselves, or the property, or other riders/horses, etc. That being said, that's a silly reason. ESPECIALLY when it's been proven that horses respond well to many other cues (seat, leg, voice, weight shifting, etc). Also, if the horse is alone in the area (reining, jumping, etc) and not with a dozen or more other horses. They are herd animals with a herd mentality, and if one acts up, others may too. If the horse is alone and contained they should have no reason to be picky about what you choose to do. :/ Unfortunately I think people have issues understanding just how well some horses listen to their riders without pulling on its face, and will be hesitant for a long time in the future to allow bitless/bridleless.


I Think that you are completely mis understanding the reason for bit rules, or even as to how bits are used correctly, for finesse.
There are enough bittless demos out there, that prove horses usually ridden with a bit, highly trained, can have that bridle dropped and perform
One of the best example, is that totally tackless freestyle reining demo, by Stacy Westfall, on a hrose who is ridden with a bit, in regular NRHA classes
Also, western horses, are shown ridden on a loose rein, off of seat and legs, so rather un informed to assume that if you ride with a bit, that horse si not taught to ride off those aids, which in fact, are key, in order to be able to ride any horse on a loose rein
Shows run under rules, so whatever exceptions for fun day type shows are allowed at your barn, mean squat. Some barns also allow you to ride without a helmet, while others make it mandatory. Kinda get the idea that your barn had some sort of NH clincian, where a great empathizes is on riding without a bridle at times (as per Pat Parell!)
Also, there is a huge difference in the bittless debate, between showing English and western, as English you always ride with two hands on the reins, whether with a bit or bittless, regardless of age of the horse

Western, you only ride with two hands, until the horse is five. Thus,as a junior horse, you can ride that horse with two hands, using either a snaffle or a bosal
However, once a horse is 5 and over, he has to be ridden one handed, and a curb is designed to be used that way, riding mainly off of seat and legs and that loose indirect rein
What is the big deal? If your horse is truly broke, ride him at home , bittless, with a head collar, with nothing, but if he is truly broke, then there should be no problem riding him with a bit, as per show rules, or stick to ' novelty shows, that allow all kinds of deviations from accepted rules
All I know, I once taught a clinic, for young horses, and had to eventually tell a man riding his colt in a halter to leave that clinic, as he was a danger to the rest of the participants
That horse was intended for his daughter, had no 'face;, stuck nose out and head up, going where it wanted, most of the time


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## ThoroughbredBug (Jan 18, 2017)

Smilie said:


> I Think that you are completely mis understanding the reason for bit rules, or even as to how bits are used correctly, for finesse.
> There are enough bittless demos out there, that prove horses usually ridden with a bit, highly trained, can have that bridle dropped and perform
> One of the best example, is that totally tackless freestyle reining demo, by Stacy Westfall, on a hrose who is ridden with a bit, in regular NRHA classes
> Also, western horses, are shown ridden on a loose rein, off of seat and legs, so rather un informed to assume that if you ride with a bit, that horse si not taught to ride off those aids, which in fact, are key, in order to be able to ride any horse on a loose rein
> ...


I feel like you scanned my post without really processing much of it to have responded with what you did.  Or maybe I wasn't particularly literate in voicing my thoughts in a way that was not jumbled and easily understood. Either way, I'm well aware of how bits are used. My post was simply to say that bits are not necessary, and that any good rider on a properly trained horse should be able to ride bitless, if not bridleless. (Which from the sound of it you agree with that?) 

The shows mentioned were hosted by the barn but were in no way "fun shows." These were pay to do the class, ribbon giving and with HP awarded for all divisions with gifts such as custom coolers, a new bridle, $500 dover gift card, etc. People outside the barn attended both of these shows as well. By "non-organization" I simply meant not a USDA or USEA regulated show. Sorry if I made it sound like a private fun day type of thing lol 

"Kinda get the idea that your barn had some sort of NH clincian, where a great empathizes is on riding without a bridle at times (as per Pat Parell!)" First and foremost, I have never and will never work with a natural horsemanship clinician. I feel like spending money on that type of thing is counter productive. Like yes, I'll pay someone to tell me how my horse wants to be treated.  To me, NH is working with the horse, not against, and using as little trickery, bribery, or force as possible. It's not a method, or steps, it's a theme. I guess I feel like every rider develops their own style too, which again, would defeat the purpose of going and learning about "natural" horsemanship. It should come naturally, if you have to learn it, it's a method. It's not natural. If that makes any sense at all lol

Both barns that hosted these shows had about 80% non-associated riders (mainly trainers with greenies looking to come to a less busy and more chill show for practice, and one that offered schooling rounds). Only about 15-20% of the people showing, in both of the shows mentioned, boarded there, or took lessons from one of the 2-5 trainers at the barn. The idea behind both of the shows, from what I understand, was to offer an alternative way to show your horse. This is nice for both on-the-budget riders, who cant afford $75 for one jump round, and for people who's horses don't conform to the normal "show standard." Most of the horses shown had on "normal" tack. But for the most part, the people showing without a bit (or even bridle) chose to do so for the horses comfort. 

Quick story: One girl I spoke to at the jumping show I took part in showed me a few photos of her mares mouth. The horse was only 14, but had been severely neglected in her earlier years. She'd been left to starve, with a halter on, for almost a year. This permanately disfigured her skull, making it very difficult to fit a bridle properly. One of her ears was farther back than the other, her nose was terribly bent in, etc She was then "rescued" to a home who continued to underfeed her. Only by the time she was 6 did she start getting proper care. Her teeth suffered terribly, and numerous gum infections from eating bark, fencing, etc left her with about half to 3/4s of her teeth. She had some in the way of where a bit would sit too, because of how the gums had deteriorated. That horse literally could not physically have a bit in her mouth. She still got a few excellent rounds in that day. Even after never having a bit in her mouth (the girl broke her with a trainer at the age of 11 (Edit: The horse was 11, not the girl!! She was 23, at the show 26)) she certainly had what I would call finesse. She was forward, round, light and attentive. She carried herself well, used herself properly over the jumps, and collected and extended her stride nicely in order to accomodate to three funky distances. She did 2 strides in a 2.5 measured distance, four in a 3.5, and came in deep to a water jump and flew over it with just one stride in between. That mare did just as well as any bitted horse there. So I don't really think that a horse HAS to learn with a bit in order to have "finesse" as you put it. I also don't feel like whether one rides with one hand or two should matter in a bit vs. bitless debate. The whole idea should be to stay off their face, stop focusing on your hands, and use your body better. Just my thoughts though. 

Hopefully this elaboration gives you a clearer idea of my opinions on the matter.  Your response totally gave me the impression you may have interpreted my post in a way I certainly did not mean.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Always made the stipulation that if a horse had a mouth issue that precluded the use of a bit,then certainly to ride that horse without a bit
Also, the choice of using a bit or not, by anyone, is perfectly okay with me also.
I just won't buy into the idea that using a bit, correctly, on a properly educated horse is any less\kind' or show inferior horsemanship
I also think, that if you show, you show under the rules of that show, or find avenue that works for you
I for one, can\t imagine an open show venue, where the horse is shown outside of his comfort zone, where stallions and mares are both in the hitching ring, with those stallions just wearing head collars,nor am I comfortable with the picture of a bunch of novice riders , riding tackless in that crowded warm up
Upper level trainers, regardless of discipline, will tell you that you get more finesse with a bit. This is not because they are not exceptional riders/horsemen, but rather because they recognize those slight nuisances that the average rider is not even aware of
Also, many world class International jumpers are shown in mechanical hackamores, so also not a debate, as those hackamores are legal in jumping, as they are in gymkana.
In other words, if you wish to ride bittless, then ride in venues where rules allow that. Since you are into jumping, you have no problem, right?


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## ThoroughbredBug (Jan 18, 2017)

@Smilie "I just won't buy into the idea that using a bit, correctly, on a properly educated horse is any less\kind' or show inferior horsemanship" I would agree with you here. I think a bit, in most cases, is a preference, not any kind of evil vs. kind debate lol Personally, I think some bits are overkill. Same with mechanical hackamores, some are overkill, proving bitless isn't always better. Hackamores can be even more severe than a bit in some cases... I've seen some "bits" that are basically a bike chain welded to a shank. Can't think of any reason to use that sort of thing as you create more pain and/or fear than finesse. But in general I do dressage tests, reining patterns, trail ride, jump, and go cross country in either a loose ring french link, a standard loose ring, a sidepull halter or nothing. I feel like swiching it up is a good way to a) make sure my guy is listening to my body, not just my hands b) make sure I'm not leaning on reins and/or using them for balance and unaware of it and c) give his mouth a break but still keep him knowing how to go "on the bit" for more traditional showing without it feeling strange. 

"I for one, can\t imagine an open show venue, where the horse is shown outside of his comfort zone, where stallions and mares are both in the hitching ring, with those stallions just wearing head collars,nor am I comfortable with the picture of a bunch of novice riders , riding tackless in that crowded warm up" I agree 110%! I think this is the fear of some people when looking at whether to allow bitless riders or not. I've done my share of 4H shows before, for a few years, and they tend to be more lenient on certain things. Most kids in my area either have professionally broke 4 and 5 y/o horses that are worth well over 35k, or have rescues or self-trained horses. I always ask what the rules are on hackamores and sidepulls. Some say no, absolutely must have a bit in the mouth of everything in the show ring. Even the 2 year old in a lunge line class. Sometimes they say yes, and this tends to be where they allow a bosal in a western class, or a hackamore in a jumping or hunter under saddle class. Trail courses you can usually do whatever you want. I'm a firm believer that this is a start in allowing and normalizing bitless in the show ring. 4H (where I live at least) is heavily regulated by a number of experienced horse people. They are starting to experiment with allowing bitless at lower level shows, and occasionally at county and state fair, depending on where you live. I have hopes that this will one day grow out of 4H, Pony Club, and schooling shows, and we will start to see bitless "normalize" so that people have more choices in how they choose to show their horse at upper level things like the USEA, USDF, NRHA, AQHA and so on.

"Since you are into jumping, you have no problem, right?" No problem with what exactly? Don't want to assume and throw out an opinion into thin air lolol


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You can ride bittless, jumping, was the intention of that remark, so show rules where bits are required,, does not affect your discipline


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## ThoroughbredBug (Jan 18, 2017)

I show as an eventer, showjumper, dressage rider, and a reiner. I also dabble in flat classes both stockseat and huntseat, but find it tedious sometimes so mainly only at schooling level for flat. It does affect me. I have also been told at some local shows that I cannot jump in a hackamore or sidepull, so some rules are not the same even within one discipline. Mainly has to do with the level I've noticed. Generally USHJA shows allow hacks while schooling/local tend to be a toss-up and you just have to email the show sec. or someone before planning on entering.


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