# Foal color question



## DeBruhlchick (Mar 18, 2017)

We bred a black mare to a buckskin stud . The black mare was sired by a blue roan ... My question is , my foal looks buckskin , will she be buckskin , black , grullo ???? When she sheds out ???? Any thoughts you could share ?


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## DeBruhlchick (Mar 18, 2017)

More pics


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Your foal appears to be buckskin. 

Black bred to buckskin (without knowing genotype who has E OR e) gives the options of the chestnut, bay, black, .... or if sire throws the crime gene... palomino, buckskin or smokey black. 

Knowing those options and asking as daddy is not hiding dun( which I don't think the baby is because there isn't a dorsal)- I can be fairly certain you don't have any dun in there and your only phenotype option from my first options would be buckskin.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

This baby looks buckskin to me with a lot of sootiness to her.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I think brown + cream. 
(Someone help! What is the proper name for that color? M... M... Mmm)


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm going with buckskin/sooty buckskin (BTW, my favorite color!)


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Buckskin.

Grulla isn't an option as neither parent is dun. Blacks are generally born a mousey grey color and this baby is distinctly tan.

Congrats!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

ApuetsoT said:


> I think brown + cream.
> (Someone help! What is the proper name for that color? M... M... Mmm)


Buckskin


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

LoriF said:


> Buckskin


No, there another term for a brown with cream, separate from bay with cream. Starts with a M.


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## Uze (Feb 23, 2013)

ApuetsoT said:


> No, there another term for a brown with cream, separate from bay with cream. Starts with a M.


Mushroom? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom_gene

http://www.theequinest.com/colors/dilution-genes/mushroom/


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Mushroom is different. 

I have only ever heard a brown plus cream called a brownskin. 

Whether this foal matures that dark will be determined after yearling shed. First shed is often the darkest due to milk proteins and fats and can be misleading. Time will tell what the summer coat and how sooty he ends up.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Is something like murello... Or murano... My Google Fu is failing today.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Uze said:


> Mushroom? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom_gene
> 
> Mushroom Horse Coat Color Dilution Gene | The Equinest


If I am reading this article correctly and another article linked to this one, the suspected gene that they are calling mushroom expresses itself on a chestnut base. They tested for silver gene and it came up negative. What they call brown is created with an agouti gene At but as of yet has not been fully proven, that I know of. Personally, what people call brown is still just another shade of bay to me.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Brown is thought to be At, so it is a bay. There was only one lab that was offering testing but they have since suspended their testing


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

ApuetsoT said:


> Is something like murello... Or murano... My Google Fu is failing today.


I tried to look for what you are talking about and the only thing that comes up is murano glass blown horses. LOL I'll keep trying to hunt down something like you're talking about.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

LoriF said:


> I tried to look for what you are talking about and the only thing that comes up is murano glass blown horses. LOL I'll keep trying to hunt down something like you're talking about.



I was finding the same thing. I figure since for so long brown wasn't a real thing, no one uses the term colloquially.


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## DeBruhlchick (Mar 18, 2017)

Thank-you all ! Always wanting to learn . 😊 Love all the information


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

ApuetsoT said:


> I was finding the same thing. I figure since for so long brown wasn't a real thing, no one uses the term colloquially.


So IS brown a real thing? 

For years I always just considered it a dark shade of bay. And then I got on this forum and thought I understood that it's actually a different color genetically from bay.

But now I'm confused. Is brown it's own genetic color, or is it just a dark version of bay?

I actually used to own a brown Arabian. But at the time he was alive, I thought he was dark bay. :shrug:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

LoriF said:


> I tried to look for what you are talking about and the only thing that comes up is murano glass blown horses. LOL I'll keep trying to hunt down something like you're talking about.


Could you guys be talking about ruano? I think that is spanish for roan.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> So IS brown a real thing?
> 
> For years I always just considered it a dark shade of bay. And then I got on this forum and thought I understood that it's actually a different color genetically from bay.
> 
> But now I'm confused. Is brown it's own genetic color, or is it just a dark version of bay?


For a while, a certain lab claimed to have a test for an At allele at the agouti locus. The presence of At meant a genetically as well as phenotypically brown horse. However, problems with that test came out and the lab pulled it (it was based on mouse research not equine). I believe that lab no longer exists at all now.

Meanwhile, other scientists have totally mapped the agouti locus and have found that only two choices are possible there: A or a. So at this point, brown and bay are the same genetically as far as agouti goes.. however, that doesn't mean that eventually someone won't discover another gene that actually controls bay vs brown.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> So IS brown a real thing?
> 
> For years I always just considered it a dark shade of bay. And then I got on this forum and thought I understood that it's actually a different color genetically from bay.
> 
> ...


I guess it just depends on who you are talking to. One genetic research company said that they found the At locus and that is what creates brown. After further research and the t on the At not behaving how they thought originally, they took that test down. At (if there is actually an At) and A are still both dominant agouti so in my eyes it doesn't matter, still a bay. But, researchers don't know everything. 
I've always wondered what creates different shades of any color and it would be great if it was figured out. One of my mares would be a color that some may consider brown. I call her bay. Phenotypically I guess you can make a distinction but genetically still a bay.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

We think there is a brown now. The lab pulled their test as they found they were testing for an associated gene, not the actual At.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks guys, that is very interesting! 

Back when I bought my first horse, a pretty Arabian gelding, I didn't even know "brown" was a color. So I just called him dark bay. :smile:


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Thanks guys, that is very interesting!
> 
> Back when I bought my first horse, a pretty Arabian gelding, I didn't even know "brown" was a color. So I just called him dark bay. :smile:


You can get very dark bays without being brown, real question is what the gelding looked like with his winter coat. Winter coats reveal very clearly the difference between bay and brown as brown tends to look like bay during the summer. Many times a black that fades get mistaken as a bay.


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