# Do I have a grey or bay foal?



## Agheera (8 mo ago)

Came to say the foal is so so so cute and good looking <3. I'm not an expert but seems to me she will get a similar color like her mother (I love it!!), maybe a littleee bit darker but they change so much in color after they are born! 

Here one of the "savage" mares gave birth to a foal and looked almost black when he was born and now is a lighter brown! For me he changes color every 1 week haha.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Bay no gray.

@Agheera foal coats are subject to fade and environmental influence and do change quite a bit until lost,. First color shades of their new coat are subject to be much darker than the adult shade will be due to several factors. You dont know the final until older, even then some colors depending on genetic factors can seemingly change year to year. Their genes don't.

Genetically this foal is EeA_grgr (no gray as opposed to Grgr or GrGr which are both gray)

OP the black appearance of the muzzle is her skin.


----------



## Sunshinemps (8 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> Bay no gray


 Thanks! Only thing I’m suspicious about is her grey muzzle. I’ll attach a newborn photo. Does it seem ‘off’ to you?


----------



## Sunshinemps (8 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> OP the black appearance of the muzzle is her skin


Ah okay. A girl in a group said because her muzzle was so grey then she was more than likely going to be grey. She said bays usually don’t have a grey muzzle. Thanks for your help


----------



## Agheera (8 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> @Agheera foal coats are subject to fade and environmental influence and do change quite a bit until lost,. First color shades of their new coat are subject to be much darker than the adult shade will be due to several factors. You dont know the final until older, even then some colors depending on genetic factors can seemingly change year to year. Their genes don't.


Thanks! At what age more less they get their "final color"? I have a 9 months old that at the beginning looked dark brown with a light brown muzzle, with black legs and now he looks just 100% black haha. I don't really care about his color, but I'm curious to know how he will look like when older 








Mother and her foal








This is him, 9 months

Right now all my horses are getting furry due to low temperatures coming in!


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@Agheera your foal is bay. Brown phenotype. Likely EEAa. A black horse would have no brown/tan/cinnamon on the muzzle. Your horse will never be as light as the dam but may lighten a small amount at the next shed this is the dark foal coat that happens after foal camo shed. That horse has a dilution gene acting on body color. Can't tell from the picture if cream or dun though I suspect dun. Nd1 which is part of the dun group would be primitives without dilition but there can be excessive fading in blacks and dark brown bays of the body. Suspect that if there are primitive markings and new coats come in rich then fade over the season. My black and dark bays are homozygous for nd1 and body fade to a rich honey color. Until they fade they are so dark you don't see the primitives.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

First is one of my dark bays. She is a couple of days old and dry. Just born she looked almost black with light under belly and silver muzzle and legs. Second is same horse and her dam who is also dark bay a year later. Both are still shedding.


----------



## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Looks bay to me, with regular foal camo. Nothing says grey to my eye.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Bay, not grey. Grey foals are usually born looking very adult in their base color. So, if they are foal color bay, they are very bay, not mousy on their legs and not faded on the body. She's lighter on the body and her legs aren't all black yet. No grey goggles and her muzzle is light but not grey.


----------



## Agheera (8 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> @Agheera your foal is bay. Brown phenotype. Likely EEAa. A black horse would have no brown/tan/cinnamon on the muzzle. Your horse will never be as light as the dam but may lighten a small amount at the next shed this is the dark foal coat that happens after foal camo shed. That horse has a dilution gene acting on body color. Can't tell from the picture if cream or dun though I suspect dun. Nd1 which is part of the dun group would be primitives without dilition but there can be excessive fading in blacks and dark brown bays of the body. Suspect that if there are primitive markings and new coats come in rich then fade over the season. My black and dark bays are homozygous for nd1 and body fade to a rich honey color. Until they fade they are so dark you don't see the primitives.


Thaaaanks so much!! I'm learning a lot here!


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

what color was the stallion?


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Sunshinemps said:


> Sire: Gg Ee crcr A(?)
> Dam: ee (Haflinger, not tested)


This is the cross for OP.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Sunshinemps said:


> Ah okay. A girl in a group said because her muzzle was so grey then she was more than likely going to be grey. She said bays usually don’t have a grey muzzle. Thanks for your help


You see how silvery both the muzzle and legs are on mine. Foal camo is different than the adult coat. It will indicate what the adult coat will be reliably in most cases but there really are no blanket because this then that...there's always an exception. Some colors can be harder than others at times bit there are usually tells especially if you document from birth (wet) to dry and as they get through those first few days.


----------



## Ruth McClure (10 mo ago)

Your filly is most decidedly bay in colour. No signs of grey at all as far as I’m concerned. She looks very sweet by the way. 😊


----------



## Sunshinemps (8 mo ago)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Bay, not grey. Grey foals are usually born looking very adult in their base color. So, if they are foal color bay, they are very bay, not mousy on their legs and not faded on the body. She's lighter on the body and her legs aren't all black yet. No grey goggles and her muzzle is light but not grey.


Thanks! I’m not sure why, but I have such a gut feeling she’s grey. I secretly hope she isn’t as I love her little face markings but she will still be loved either way 😅 I’ve attached a couple more photos from today (day 4 earth side) and her eyes are starting to darken a little. I’m not sure if this is hyperpigmentation at play or just how she’s turning out but if you wouldn’t mind, could you take a look? Does she still look bay to you? Thank you so much ☺


----------



## Sunshinemps (8 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> You see how silvery both the muzzle and legs are on mine. Foal camo is different than the adult coat. It will indicate what the adult coat will be reliably in most cases but there really are no blanket because this then that...there's always an exception. Some colors can be harder than others at times bit there are usually tells especially if you document from birth (wet) to dry and as they get through those first few days.


Thanks! I’m not sure why, but I have such a gut feeling she’s grey. I secretly hope she isn’t as I love her little face markings but she will still be loved either way 😅 I’ve attached a couple more photos from today (day 4 earth side) and her eyes are starting to darken a little. I’m not sure if this is hyperpigmentation at play or just how she’s turning out but if you wouldn’t mind, could you take a look? Does she still look bay to you? Thank you so much ☺


----------



## Sunshinemps (8 mo ago)

SteadyOn said:


> Looks bay to me, with regular foal camo. Nothing says grey to my eye.


Thanks! I’m not sure why, but I have such a gut feeling she’s grey. I secretly hope she isn’t as I love her little face markings but she will still be loved either way 😅 I’ve attached a couple more photos from today (day 4 earth side) and her eyes are starting to darken a little. I’m not sure if this is hyperpigmentation at play or just how she’s turning out but if you wouldn’t mind, could you take a look? Does she still look bay to you? Thank you so much ☺


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The white on her nose is part of her snip. She has a star, strip and snip. Hyperpigmentation is present at birth and does not develop days later. Hair around the eyes and in the tail lose pigmentation first. That isn't present. A hyperpigmented bay would have the jet black legs of an adult. They would not show the light underbelly of foal camo. See how black the legs and rich the coat. These are hyperpigmented


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If I blow your most recent picture up then there appears to be white hairs coming in directly around the eye but I can't say if it's photo quality or actual. The legs would not be as expected if it is. And as said no description is a blanket rule, there are exceptions. I'll hope that the foal is bay and photo quality when blown up is poor as bay is what Newborn looks like.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I see what maybe in top two but not bottom two. Give it more time and see if goggles




























come in.


----------



## Aisha2704 (7 mo ago)

I would say bay, but the muzzle, tail and legs do indicate a slight chance of a grey. 
Btw she is absolutely adorable 🥰


----------



## Sunshinemps (8 mo ago)

Genetic results are in and...

Grey baby! 
e/e A/A G/g


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Interesting. I'm wondering now about lighting as I've not seen a red going gray with legs that look black or what appear to be ear tips.


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

It's baby hair. She will probably look much different in a year.


----------



## RFInukshuk (7 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> @Agheera your foal is bay. Brown phenotype. Likely EEAa. A black horse would have no brown/tan/cinnamon on the muzzle. Your horse will never be as light as the dam but may lighten a small amount at the next shed this is the dark foal coat that happens after foal camo shed. That horse has a dilution gene acting on body color. Can't tell from the picture if cream or dun though I suspect dun. Nd1 which is part of the dun group would be primitives without dilition but there can be excessive fading in blacks and dark brown bays of the body. Suspect that if there are primitive markings and new coats come in rich then fade over the season. My black and dark bays are homozygous for nd1 and body fade to a rich honey color. Until they fade they are so dark you don't see the primitives.


Dam is ee. Foal absolutely cannot be EE


----------



## RFInukshuk (7 mo ago)

This foal is quite clearly hyper pigmented and will grey out.
I’m not quite sure what everyone else is looking at to see a bay foal.
Bay base is possible but I can’t see ear tips to determine.
I would want to say red going grey but bay going grey is also possible.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

RFInukshuk said:


> Dam is ee. Foal absolutely cannot be EE


 @RFInukshuk Please read the entire thread for content. This is the dam and foal I was referring to.


----------



## RFInukshuk (7 mo ago)

QtrBel said:


> @RFInukshuk Please read the entire thread for content. This is the dam and foal I was referring to.
> View attachment 1130976


i did read the entire thread, as I always do.
I have simply misunderstood, apologies.


----------



## RFInukshuk (7 mo ago)

I disagree here, I believe that your foal is grey and the reason that she looks bay is because she’s hyper pigmented red. 
mare is red with pangaré. Extension ee, agouti ?, no cream and positive pangaré

I would think baby is most likely ee agouti?? crcr Gg

I’m Not sure why anyone looks at this foal and thinks no grey


----------



## Myrrhydian (4 mo ago)

Sunshinemps said:


> Hi everyone. I had a little filly born 2 days ago and I’m stumped to what colour she is. Posted on a few Facebook genetic groups and the answers are either bay, grey or red. (She’s definitely not red in person, got the stud owner to confirm, light might throw it a different way).
> We had a family friend come out (big breeding farm) to have a look at her and he’s putting money on she’s bay. He knows the sire and swears every grey foal that he throws has come out with distinct grey goggles and very dark hyperpigmentation, especially on the legs. I’m not sure how credible that is as I’m sure every foal is different. Some people in the group said that as she had dark skin as a newborn she was grey, but I’ve since learned that that only applies to red based foals and bays have dark skin from birth. I intend on getting her tested in the future but thought it might be fun to have a couple guesses.
> S
> View attachment 1129776
> ...


I have no idea what color she'll be, but WHAT A CUTIE!!!


----------

