# Question: Classic Roans gone Grey...



## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

I've never thought much of it before now, but does any corning they develop slowly go through the whole greying out process? Or does it stay the base colour & doesn't ever grey back out?
If anyone has experienced it before, what happened & was the horse Grey or Fleabitten Grey?


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Grey really doesn't care what horse color it is changing, and the only time the speed of the process seems to be directly impacted is when LP or being homozgous grey is added to the mix. A roan will look roan until the grey has reached the point of turning the head, legs, mane and tail to grey. All dark color will be lost over time until it looks just like any other grey. Being fleabitten has more bearing on the genetics involved with the grey, certain horses are more prone to developing fleabites regardless of their color.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Corning marks will go grey. Grey doesn't care and will affect any marking- The only markings that can remain are fleabites of varying sizes and the random somatic or chimeric mark.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Guys, please read the original post- having bred & owned many Grey's over the last 25yrs I'm well aware of the greying process, which has Nothing to do with the question I was asking at all.

I was asking if people who OWN or have OWNED a Roan gone Grey, have experienced what happens with their corn markings & if so, was their horse flea-bitten or plain/white Grey- 
ie. Did they notice the corning was Greying out faster, slower or about the same as the horse's original greying out process? or did the corning simply stick around in some capacity- like some sort of weird fleabites? & what kind of Grey it was- flea bitten Grey or plain/white Grey.

My mare got me thinking that those of us with Classic Roans gone Grey have a unique opportunity to observe the exact same horse go through the Greying process more than once & be able to compare it with how they greyed out the 1st time around.
For instance in my mare's case, she got a cut on her leg as a 3yr old, the hair grew back in entirely white, then over 2 seasons the white hair was replaced with black/dark grey hairs, she never developed corning before either.
As a flea-bitten 8yr old, she got a scrape down her back & the hair grew in dark chocolate brown with a few white hairs in it, so as a corn mark (I assumed it'd simply follow her original pattern of greying out & in 4years would be pretty much gone, yet it is still very dark brown).
Last season she went to stud & as per natural service, she developed a few corn marks around the sides of her quarters... which have only gotten darker than they were this time last season.

So it got me wondering- do only flea-bitten greys develop Corn marks or do plain/white Greys also develop them.... do corn marks tend to Grey out faster before they develop flea bites, or is my mare just funky  
Hence, my posting my original question


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, you are talking of two color gene modifiers working at the same time, so any changes to that base coat color would be due to both the roaning and the greying gene, so there is no way to simply look at a horse, and decide as to which modifier is at work the most, or in what degree
All I know, is in Appaloosas, that greying gene can work at different rates on the base coat color and the spots. I bred Charlie's dam, by transported semen, to a stallion I had just seen in the Appaloosa Journal. He appeared like a black Leopard.
I then saw some of his offspring in the Journal, with quite a few of them greying. 
I e-mailed the stallion owner to see if his stud carried the greying gene.
He said, 'well, some of his offspring are grey!
Charlie was born loud colored, and became completely white by the time she was two


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Well, you are talking of two color gene modifiers working at the same time, so any changes to that base coat color would be due to both the roaning and the greying gene, so there is no way to simply look at a horse, and decide as to which modifier is at work the most, or in what degree
> All I know, is in Appaloosas, that greying gene can work at different rates on the base coat color and the spots. I bred Charlie's dam, by transported semen, to a stallion I had just seen in the Appaloosa Journal. He appeared like a black Leopard.
> I then saw some of his offspring in the Journal, with quite a few of them greying.
> I e-mailed the stallion owner to see if his stud carried the greying gene.
> ...


Yes, exactly- Roan & Grey are at odds with each other- at least in the early stages of Greying out anyway. 
ie. My mare was a classic example of Roan trying to keep all the points dark coloured, while Grey was trying to remove the pigment from her head, mane & tail 1st,then Grey tried to hyperpigment the body, while Roan was fighting to keep it light.
What changed was my mare started to develop corning AFTER she started getting fleabites & frankly the corning isn't greying out as I expected it to, so I'm beginning to wonder (after 4years!) if whatever genetic quirk allows the reestablishment of pigmented hairs (fleabites) in Greys, is also being triggered with the corn marks OR if the rate of Greying out isn't entirely down to the individual's genetics, but also their environment (only thing I can think of for the same horse, with the same DNA not following the same Greying out schedule it did originally).

Lp & Roan seem to act differently with Grey.... although that isn't really a surprise given Lp seems to be plain crazy all on it's own what with colour shifting etc.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Surayya said:


> What changed was my mare started to develop corning AFTER she started getting fleabites & frankly the corning isn't greying out as I expected it to, so I'm beginning to wonder (after 4years!) if whatever genetic quirk allows the reestablishment of pigmented hairs (fleabites) in Greys, is also being triggered with the corn marks OR if the rate of Greying out isn't entirely down to the individual's genetics, but also their environment (only thing I can think of for the same horse, with the same DNA not following the same Greying out schedule it did originally).


If you clone a grey horse, the clone will have a different rate of greying because there isn't a set guideline/schedule to grey out. Just like the white markings on the clone will be different than the original. Unpredictable behaviors of genes at the time of early fetal development.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

SunnyDraco said:


> If you clone a grey horse, the clone will have a different rate of greying because there isn't a set guideline/schedule to grey out. Just like the white markings on the clone will be different than the original. Unpredictable behaviors of genes at the time of early fetal development.


Ummm, not sure what bearing that has on my post at all considering I am talking about the exact same horse going through the "greying out" process twice in it's life :???:
I'm not talking about a horse who may have the same DNA sequence as the 1st, yet developed in a very different uterine environment, so is already intrinsically different than the donner horse before it's even born, 'greying out' the exact same way the original horse did & besides that, cloning isn't that simple, a clone for a start, at it's the most basic level is nothing like 1 horse having the ability to grey out twice, as the nucleus of all of a clone's cells will reflect the telomere status of the original donor animal, which is going skew things, so despite the DNA being arranged in the same sequence, it isn't the same age as the original horses was when it was born, so the clone/s are born intrinsically different on a genetic level from the donner horse anyway (or at least that's my understanding from the limited knowledge about cloning I've had over the last 20years :shrug: ).

The "genetic" component I referred to in my post was not suggesting all Grey's grey out to a fixed pattern just because they have the Grey mutation present, it was with regards to certain lines of Greys from certain key sires or mares Greying out either slower or faster, developing fleabites or not, Greying out in a predictable pattern- ie. All foals aren't necessarily on the same property, nor receiving the same nutrition, yet Grey out similarly enough to have a predictable pattern to it in general.

By the same token "environment" was meant as the external environmental factors around an already adult individual, that was at a vastly different stage of the greying out process than the original "beginning stages" of pigment loss. ie. Grey actively Adding pigment back into hair, not actively trying to Remove it.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Surayya said:


> By the same token "environment" was meant as the external environmental factors around an already adult individual, that was at a vastly different stage of the greying out process than the original "beginning stages" of pigment loss. ie. Grey actively Adding pigment back into hair, not actively trying to Remove it.


I am not sure where you are coming from either to get "going grey twice"... But the "adding pigment back into the hair" is an interesting topic. I was raised with a herd of grey horses and watched many foals go through the grey process into adulthood/late teenage years. Almost every chestnut and bay foal actually had the grey change the base color (all the red hairs) into a dark, almost black grey color before having the pigment removed. So we had chestnut and bay based foals who lost all red coloring and went through dapple grey color stages. One of those chestnut based greys was extremely accident prone, his scars did go through the greying process with him even if at first the scars were dark colored (not red, just dark).


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

SunnyDraco said:


> I am not sure where you are coming from either to get "going grey twice"


As already stated- horse is a Classic Roan- Classic Roans get corn marks which stay with them for life/ dont roan out over time.
Horse is also Grey & is in the later stages of her "greying out" process ie. is "white" with flea bites on her body & bit of pale Grey hair left on her legs... She also developed a weird chocolate coloured lacing type pattern of hairs on the bridge of her face/nose area about 3 years ago now.
Therefore, horse has a mutation that causes hair growing back in, to be the original base colouring, which then should "grey out" again.

Ergo, the horse has areas of it's body that have been effectively reset for the greying out process to start all over again a 2nd time around on the same horse, so one would assume it would follow a similar timetable to said horse's original process of greying out.

The hyper-pigmenting of coats is something else entirely to what I was referring to there, I should have been more specific on that (although I too find it very interesting. My theory is Red is typically the 1st pigment stripped from the coat & that's what makes it appear darker/ change colour, rather than Grey adding pigment to the hairs). 
I was actually referencing Grey slowly removing all pigment from the hair as the early part of the grey'ing process of a flea-bitten grey, with the later part of the process being adding pigment back into the hair via fleabites.

What has thrown me & got me wondering is having Roan developing corning while the Grey mutation is also turning pigment back on again (flea bites) & in my girls case her "greying out progression" for the corn marks, is just not matching with her original progression of greying out, hence wanting other Rona gone grey owners experiences  

I hope that response makes sense- it's 7:20am here & I haven't slept a wink all night!


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

The corn marks will grey out. Whether or not she gets flea bites is based on her personal grey genetics and really varies. It is unrelated to the roan gene. I have had 25+ greys with most of them closely related and they all greyed out on their own terms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Surayya said:


> What has thrown me & got me wondering is having Roan developing corning while the Grey mutation is also turning pigment back on again (flea bites) & in my girls case her "greying out progression" for the corn marks, is just not matching with her original progression of greying out, hence wanting other Rona gone grey owners experiences
> 
> I hope that response makes sense- it's 7:20am here & I haven't slept a wink all night!


Sleep does wonders for the mind and body, hope you are able to get caught up on sleep soon. 

Your girl is also quite young, most heterozygous greys are still very dark at 4 years old. There really isn't a steady pace for most greys to go through the process. They may go slow and then fast, or start fast and then go slow. Watched many greys vary in their own speeds of grey progression. What you are likely watching happen on your own girl is the typical corn markings associated with being a roan. Once grey takes over that location, the corning will also grey out. It just looks like a giant fleabite because the area around is mostly a mixture of roan with some grey as being roan will make her look much further into the grey process. You know, you could post pictures to show us visually what is going on ;-)


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Dehda01 said:


> The corn marks will grey out. Whether or not she gets flea bites is based on her personal grey genetics and really varies. It is unrelated to the roan gene. I have had 25+ greys with most of them closely related and they all greyed out on their own terms.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please read the actual post, as I've already stated I'm well aware of how Grey works given the numbers I've owned & bred over the years.

Have you owned a Classic Roan gone Grey that also developed corn marks? 
If so, please answer the questions I actually asked- ie. how did the Greying out process of the corn marks compare to the horse/s original greying out process? & was the horse plain/white Grey or fleabitten Grey?


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

SunnyDraco said:


> Sleep does wonders for the mind and body, hope you are able to get caught up on sleep soon.


Yes it does & thanks! 

Umm.... you've totally lost me on your 2nd paragraph (not hard to do in my current over tired state  ) -


> Your girl is also quite young, most heterozygous greys are still very dark at 4 years old.


You've confused my earlier post as my mare is not 4, she's rising 11 & into the later stages of her greying out process as I've already described.... her earliest corning is almost 4yrs old & is not even close to being as "stripped of pigment" as she herself was a 4yr old- in fact her oldest corn mark still makes people think she's a Dun from a distance lol (it's a still a distinctive chocolate brown stripe running down her back, almost 4yrs after the fact).



> There really isn't a steady pace for most greys to go through the process. They may go slow and then fast, or start fast and then go slow. Watched many greys vary in their own speeds of grey progression.


As I've already stated, I know that there isn't a fixed pace of progression for greys to go through the process- again I said this is the same horse who has already completed the pigment removal process on her body & is now actively in the adding pigment back to the body hair process of her greying out- her corn marks mean parts of her body are going through the greying out process for a 2nd time, so I already have a time frame for progression if it's as simple as "grey resets in those areas & starts the greying out process again".



> What you are likely watching happen on your own girl is the typical corn markings associated with being a roan.


Yes, I have already stated numerious times that this is the case.



> Once grey takes over that location, the corning will also grey out.


It's been almost 4yrs- Grey should have greatly removed pigment from these marks by now & it just hasnt- which is the whole point of my post- it is Classic Roan's Corn marks interacting with Grey (which in the early stages typically wants to remove all pigment from all hair including corn marks), in a later stages, when Grey itself is no longer actively removing pigment from the areas the Corn marks are in, but is instead turning pigment back on, that I am interested in. 




> It just looks like a giant fleabite because the area around is mostly a mixture of roan with some grey as being roan will make her look much further into the grey process.


Nope, her corn marks look nothing like her fleabites & certainly not giant fleabites (aka re-pigmentation marking), as she has a moderately sized repigmentation marking below her 1st corn mark- she actually started developing the repigmentation marking between 5 & 6yrs old, so it was there before the corn mark was  As I've already stated- her fleabites (& therefore repigmentation marking) follow the Classic Roan pattern- solid coloured on the head & legs, roaned out on the body- her corn marks do NOT Roan out like the fleabites do, so they stand out making their greying progression (or lack thereof) easy to see.



> You know, you could post pictures to show us visually what is going on ;-)


I was leaving that until I could take some recent pics of the oldest corn mark- which requires a LOT of grooming, as she has been taking full advantage of being coverless during our recent cooler wet weather, after a very long, very hot summer  
I never thought to bother taking actual pics of the progression tbh, as I always thought it would simply grey out as she did the 1st time around- ie. by the time it was 4yrs old it would be light grey, by 5yrs it'd be mostly gone, by 6 it would be entirely gone. I do have a few, but they arent great, as only 2 are close ups.
Since she was pretty much a pampered lawnmower for the last 18mths, I've only really just realised how long it's been & that the corning isn't actually following her original Greying out process lol. 

That is why I'm wanting to know from other Roan gone Grey owners IF they have experienced the same thing- their horse/s corn marks taking markedly longer to grey out than the horse itself did originally or if they've done other funky things.... like get darker not paler over the years- esp if it was AFTER the pigment removal process of Grey had finished actively removing pigment for the corn mark areas- ie. the horse is either already totally white/plain grey or is flea bitten grey)
I'm also curious to know if white/plain Greys (those that don't have fleabites) even get corn markings at all, as I don't recall ever seeing one & I know when my mare was in the process of Grey's pigment removal, her "corn marks" grew in "white" not her base colouring.

I will also add- if I seem short at any point in this post PLEASE dont take it personally- I'm really feeling the lack sleep now & I promise it's not my intention to be sharp, dismissive or anything negative at all, so if it comes off that way at all, then I'm really sorry  (this is my last post before I go feed my ponies & then I can watch TV for an hour or 2 before going to bed).


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Wow- I am going to have to bite my tongue on this one. 

Yes, I had a few true roans grey out. The Corning marks just disappeared over time, how long really depended on the horse, I never had Corning marks remain. Most had at least a few flea bites, some didn't. 

There can also be somatic mutations involved- but those would have been there from the start. It isn't a scar? My greys scar pigment dark. 



Surayya said:


> Please read the actual post, as I've already stated I'm well aware of how Grey works given the numbers I've owned & bred over the years.
> 
> Have you owned a Classic Roan gone Grey that also developed corn marks?
> If so, please answer the questions I actually asked- ie. how did the Greying out process of the corn marks compare to the horse/s original greying out process? & was the horse plain/white Grey or fleabitten Grey?


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Dehda01 said:


> Wow- I am going to have to bite my tongue on this one.
> 
> Yes, I had a few true roans grey out. The Corning marks just disappeared over time, how long really depended on the horse, I never had Corning marks remain. Most had at least a few flea bites, some didn't.
> 
> There can also be somatic mutations involved- but those would have been there from the start. It isn't a scar? My greys scar pigment dark.


1st off- as I stated above- if my response came off sharp, then sorry, that wasn't the intention. 

When I posted my question asking about what other Roan gone Grey owners had experienced with their horse/s corning, I was hoping people would answer as you have above, with: 'yes they have owned roan/s gone grey & XYZ is what they experienced/ recalled happened, or others saying they hadn't owned a Roan gone grey, but had seen one go through the process & XYZ happened'. As that has been the only info I've asked for/about  
Being sleep deprived & trying to be diplomatic after numerous responses that ignore the questions you are actually asking & instead tell you basic information you've known for over 2 decades already, is somewhat difficult to say the least, but again, there was no intention on my part to be rude or sharp etc. So I am sorry if it did come off that way  

Anyhow, Thank you for answering the questions, that is perfect. 
It's good to hear from someone who has actually experienced Roan/s who are also Grey- esp someone who has had more than 1 (well I guess I now have 2 lol).
Did you notice if the corn marks took longer, shorter or about the same time to grey out than the horses original greying out process? (assuming of course that you had from a foal/weanling).
Did you notice if your younger horses got corn marks or not?
I don't suppose you happen to have a pic of any of your white/plain Grey Roans showing a corn mark? (I'm not kidding when I say I've not seen one before- I can't find any online & since Classic Roans are still uncommon here, it's doubtful I'll ever see one in person :/ )

My girl doesn't have any somatic mutations/blood marks, only the re-pigmentation marking. 

No, it's not a scar, it was a shallow scrape down her back, probably from a low hanging branch (I don't know what happened exactly as it happened while she was in the what turned out to be substandard care of the professional transport company that the person who had been leasing her sent her back home with- we know not to use them again! :/ )

Oddly, as I mentioned in previous posts, the hair that grows over my girl's scars has changed since she was young- she has a small scar on one of her hocks from when she was a foal which grew back in all white, when she recut the same area open while at stud last year, the new hair grew in white & black (her legs are going flea-bitten now which is why I assume some black hairs grew in this time around), she has white hair from a deep scrape she got as a 4yr old on left foreleg & that hair is totally white as well, she also has a small scar on her rt front pastern that is only a couple of years old & that has black & white regrowth hairs, when she was 4yrs old she got a bad kick to her hock & had to have her hock wrapped for weeks, a pressure sore developed & that hair grew back in white as well, but again, she didnt start developing fleabites until around 5, so I simply assumed all the 'pure white' scar hair was due to her still losing pigment in those areas when the new skin & hair grew in & by the same token I assumed the new white & black scar hair was due to Grey turning pigment back on in the areas she had got the most recent scars.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Could someone give a scientific reference of the greying gene adding pigment back in at times, as that is news to me

Roan
Roan is a horse coat color pattern characterized by an even mixture of colored and white hairs on the body, while the head and "points"—lower legs, mane and tail—are mostly solid-colored. Horses with roan coats have white hairs evenly intermingled throughout any other color. The head, legs, mane and tail have fewer scattered white hairs or none at all. The roan pattern is dominantly-inherited, and is found in many horse breeds. While the specific mutation responsible for roan has not been exactly identified, a DNA test can determine zygosity for roan in several breeds. True roan is always present at birth, though it may be hard to see until after the foal coat sheds out. The coat may lighten or darken from winter to summer, but unlike the gray coat color, which also begins with intermixed white and colored hairs, roans do not become progressively lighter in color as they age. The silvering effect of mixed white and colored hairs can create coats that look bluish or pinkish

Gray vs. roan[edit]

Blue roans, such as these may be confused with young gray horses or blue duns
Main article: Gray (horse)
Roans are sometimes mistaken for grays. However, grays lighten with age, while roans do not. Gray is one of the most common coat colors found in horses, and is found in almost all breeds. The defining characteristic of the gray coat is that it becomes progressively lighter over time.[10] Gray foals may be born any color, and there may be no indication of the future gray coat at birth.[11] Mature grays may retain none of their original coat color, and have a "white" coat, while the color of the skin and eyes is unchanged. The first white hairs are usually seen around the muzzle and eyes.[11] As a gray may go from entirely colored to entirely white over the course of its life, the process of "graying out" can, at times, closely resemble roan.[12] Thoroughbred and Arabian horses registered as "roan" are often gray, especially chestnuts turning gray.[11] Unlike grays, roans do not develop more white hair with age, and without white markings, roans retain colored heads.

When you have both the greying gene and the roan gene working on a base coat, looking at the horse you can not determine as to whether the grey gene or the roan gene is the cause of specific white hairs
Thus, visual observation based conclusions are not accurate very often. I would be more inclined to think that the darker hairs resulting, being due to the way roan can change, often season the season, then the greying gene putting any color back in


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Corn marks and roans
Corn mark characteristics are related to the roan and not the grey gene

'Roans have other unusual characteristics. If the skin is damaged by even a very minor scrape, cut or brand, the coat grows back in solid-colored without any white hairs.[6] These regions of solid-colored coat are called "corn spots" or "corn marks" and can appear even without the horse having had a visible injury.[6] Another trait is reverse dappling; many horses develop rings of hair that appear slightly different-colored, called dapples, which often indicate good health. Usually dapples are darker than the surrounding coat, but on a roan, the dapples are lighter.[6]


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Nowhere that I have ever read, does the greying gene go in reverse, and add pigment back in. The grey gene blocks the hair shaft from taking up the melanin pigment, thus causing that pigmentation to accumulate on the skin, and thus the associate with malignant melanoma
Now, if there is some gene that causes that pigment up take to once again be unblocked, working on that greying gene, it's new to me!

Since the grey gene is a de-pigmentation gene, I don't see how that then becomes reversed, and that de-pigmentation gene adding color back in!

'While gray is commonly called a coat color by breed registries, genetically it may be more correct to call it a de pigmentation pattern. It is a dominant allele,[1] and thus a horse needs only one copy of the gray allele, that is, heterozygous, to be gray in color. A homozygous gray horse, one carrying two gray alleles, will always produce gray foals.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Could someone give a scientific reference of the greying gene adding pigment back in at times, as that is news to me


......... Fleabites .....


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I would guess any new marks are scars. My greys often come in with a newpermanent bay or black(depending on their base color these days) scratch from a tree lot I have unfortunately. 

Fleabites are color that has been allowed to remain in the genetic code. Not repigment. I have no more wish to fight with a combative person. I simply don't have the energy. My pictures are long gone on ancient computers.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Dehda01 said:


> I would guess any new marks are scars. My greys often come in with a newpermanent bay or black(depending on their base color these days) scratch from a tree lot I have unfortunately.
> 
> Fleabites are color that has been allowed to remain in the genetic code. Not repigment. I have no more wish to fight with a combative person. I simply don't have the energy. My pictures are long gone on ancient computers.


As I said before- the oldest one was a just a graze involving only the top layer or 2 of skin.... unless by scar you mean any type of skin damage that removes hair?

Now I'm confused... I thought you said Grey's can't get "permanent" marks?

Interesting, I've never heard of that fleabite expression theory- every other person (including a geneticist when I got my girl tested for grey) has said it appears that Grey, for some unknown reason, flips the mechanism that removes pigment from the hair shaft, thus allowing pigment back into the hair again- What it is caused by exactly is not yet known- it could be an additional as yet unfound mutation or it could be specific to the grey mutation itself- for now I obviously choose to go with it being grey itself (since the mutation is obviously present), until evidence to the contrary comes to light  

I wasn't aware we were fighting & I'm hardly being combative when I've apologised for any offence you've taken. 
I'm sorry you are still annoyed/offended by me, but I can do no more than apologise, offer an explanation & thank you for answering.

That's a shame about the pics, but I understand.

I also understand you aren't interested in continuing further discussion & that's fine, in the event you do read this, thank you again for answering my original questions & I do hope you get time to recharge your energy


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Of course Greys can scar after the fact. It just depends on how badly the hair follicle is damaged. In my mares summer coat you can see a long scratch across her back. See brands and freeze brands. Grey horses must be freeze branded much longer than regular colored horses I order to damage the follicles enough to get the hair to come out black. See the kyro kinetic post on this website about it. The skin follicle just has to be damaged enough to put out black hairs rather than white hairs.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Surayya said:


> As I said before- the oldest one was a just a graze involving only the top layer or 2 of skin.... unless by scar you mean any type of skin damage that removes hair?
> 
> Now I'm confused... I thought you said Grey's can't get "permanent" marks?
> 
> ...


If you read the one link I posted, it states right out, that the roan gene has the association that if a scar, scrape, ect occur, the hair that grows back will be non roan.
If there is some scientific info that the grey gene, can be reversed, from depigmenting, to adding pigment back in, I',m all ears
Roans do often darken at times, but Grey is always progressive
Yes, greys, obviously retain dark skin under any area that was pigmented, so if greys get a scrape that expose skin, that scrape will be colored
When I( wash Charlie, her original blanket and leg markings are obvious
As for Classic roans, what exactly is that definition?
Since the roan gene can act on any base coat, or coat pattern, then the visual observations of that roaning process are tied to that fact, including the areas that remain pigmented.
You are trying to state, without any proof, that any re pigmentation you noticed was due tot hat greying gene, and until proven otherwise, I say it is due tot he roan gene.
Of course, if a roan, that had greyed, gets a scrape, then that roan gene is still at work in that 'grey' area, and can,a s stated, have the hair grow in sold colored, which then has to play 'catch up', far as toatl body greying.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dehda01 said:


> Of course Greys can scar after the fact. It just depends on how badly the hair follicle is dama
> 
> ged. In my mares summer coat you can see a long scratch across her back. See brands and freeze brands. Grey horses must be freeze branded much longer than regular colored horses I order to damage the follicles enough to get the hair to come out black. See the kyro kinetic post on this website about it. The skin follicle just has to be damaged enough to put out black hairs rather than white hairs.


It is quite simple.
The greying gene stops the hair shaft from picking up that melanin, which thus builds at the skin level. It is why grey horses have a high rate of melanoma, which arises out of the excessive pigment, stored at skin level, not taken up by the hair shaft. THERE IS NO DEPIGMENTATION AT SKIN LEVEL< QUITE THE CONTRARY!

Dark hair does not grow back in on a grey freeze banded horse. The hair follicles are completely destroyed by the longer application, causing a hairless brand

See below:


Freeze branding is the process of using a branding iron that has been super chilled with liquid nitrogen (-196º Celcius) which is then applied to the hide of the horse. The extreme cold destroys the cells in the horse's skin that produce pigmentation or colour. Therefore a freeze branded horse will have white hair grow back where the freeze branding iron was held on the skin. For white/grey horses the freeze brand is simply held on longer, which destroys the hair follicle and results in a hairless brand.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

My fleabit grey mare, who is a black-based gray, has at least one mark on her that is black that I know must have been caused by an injury because there is a dimple in the muscle underneath it. So I think it was a cut (or maybe even a kick) deep enough to affect the muscle. It happened before I owned her, so I don't know if the hair came in black while she was still black or if it came in black while she was already greyed out. 

It's late at night and I am confused about all this "greying out twice" stuff. I guess I just wanted to second what _*Dehda01 *_said in that even a non-roan grey can scar a dark color. So perhaps what look like corn spots are actually scars. (And when I say scar, I don't mean that there is obvious damage to the skin, but that the hair was scraped off at one point and it re-grew in dark). 

I guess what I am wondering is, perhaps the same types of scrapes that leave corn spots on a roan are the same types of scrapes that will leave dark marks on a grey as well. And if that's the case, whose to say which is which if you have a horse with both genetics? Maybe those spots are bound to be permanently dark in both cases???

I dunno. :faceshot:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A grey horse has dark skin, thus are you sure the hair grew completely back, or are you actually just seeing some small scar(skin) area where the hair never grew back?
The reason the freeze branding iron must be left longer on a grey horse, is in non grey horses, that hair is just de pigmneted by that freeze brand, thus shows up as white hair-same as happens , at times, at the withers, when a saddle does not fit well
Since a grey horse already has colored hair replaced by non pigmented hair,l the brand is left on longer, to KILL those hair follicles , resulting in a hairless brand, where the dark skin can those show through
Look at your grey horse's skin,(in the area that was colored ) beneath that white hair, and you will see the original colored skin, unlike under white markings of a non grey horse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dehda01 said:


> Of course Greys can scar after the fact. It just depends on how badly the hair follicle is damaged. In my mares summer coat you can see a long scratch across her back. See brands and freeze brands. Grey horses must be freeze branded much longer than regular colored horses I order to damage the follicles enough to get the hair to come out black. See the kyro kinetic post on this website about it. The skin follicle just has to be damaged enough to put out black hairs rather than white hairs.


Not quite
The branding iron is left on longer, not to just damage the hair follicles, as in a non grey horse, but to kill that hair follicles. What you then see, is the dark skin in that brand, and not dark hair growing back. It is hairless brand in grey horses


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Surayya, can you please give me some link, where any geneticist has stated that there is a mutation that will reverse the de -pigmentation by the greying gene-or in other words, both switch it off, and then actually all that melanin, accumulated on the skin, to be taken up the hair hair shaft again?
Not saying someone might not have told you that, but I have not come across it in any scientific papers
Unlike roans, that can darken and become lighter, then darken again, greying is always progressive That pigment is still being produced, but stays at skin level, and dark areas on grey horses, on areas that have already greyed, are scars, that allow the skin color to show through

See if you can actually pull any dark hairs on those pencil line scars, and I bet you will find that you were looking at the skin


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Smilie said:


> A grey horse has dark skin, thus are you sure the hair grew completely back, or are you actually just seeing some small scar(skin) area where the hair never grew back?
> The reason the freeze branding iron must be left longer on a grey horse, is in non grey horses, that hair is just de pigmneted by that freeze brand, thus shows up as white hair-same as happens , at times, at the withers, when a saddle does not fit well
> Since a grey horse already has colored hair replaced by non pigmented hair,l the brand is left on longer, to KILL those hair follicles , resulting in a hairless brand, where the dark skin can those show through
> Look at your grey horse's skin,(in the area that was colored ) beneath that white hair, and you will see the original colored skin, unlike under white markings of a non grey horse


Not sure if this was directed at me specifically, but yes, I am 100% sure I am looking at black hair and not black skin. If I remember tomorrow I will get a picture. It's right on her rump at the level to get kicked or cut if she backed into something. So just for discussion, I should get a picture. She also has a weird spot on her forehead (black) but I am assuming that might be sort of like a bloody shoulder marking, only black. In other words, a spot that just didn't grey out. That one could go either way........either a scraped spot that grew in black or a spot that never greyed out to begin with. I've only had her about 6 years (and she's 22 now) so there was a lot of her life I didn't see. inkunicorn:

I won't comment on the brands as I've never owned a freeze branded grey. But I heard the same thing you did......that they leave the iron on longer to completely kill the hair follicles. So I'm not arguing it's black hair on a brand.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Smilie said:


> A grey horse has dark skin, thus are you sure the hair grew completely back, or are you actually just seeing some small scar(skin) area where the hair never grew back?
> The reason the freeze branding iron must be left longer on a grey horse, is in non grey horses, that hair is just de pigmneted by that freeze brand, thus shows up as white hair-same as happens , at times, at the withers, when a saddle does not fit well
> Since a grey horse already has colored hair replaced by non pigmented hair,l the brand is left on longer, to KILL those hair follicles , resulting in a hairless brand, where the dark skin can those show through
> Look at your grey horse's skin,(in the area that was colored ) beneath that white hair, and you will see the original colored skin, unlike under white markings of a non grey horse



Coming into this discussion late, but my gray mare had some kind of sweet-itch thing in the summer time where she'd end up scratching her butt raw if she wasn't bathed weekly. 
All it took was bathing her one day too late, and bam, she'd have found something to rub herself raw on during the night. :icon_rolleyes:

The first time it happened, the hair that grew back in was light gray and had essentially greyed out again by the next summer - you could see a faint line, but it was barely noticeable.
The second time, she rubbed herself bloody and ended up with a black line on her butt. The hair grew in dark black, much darker than the first rub was.

She passed away before the next summer so I don't know if it would have lightened more, or what. I do know that the line was a "steely" gray on her winter coat - not black like it had been in the summer.

Here's a picture of her and that dark line:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I found a (not very flattering) picture of the spot on my mare's head on my computer. 

What do you guys think caused this? Is it the grey equivalent of a corn spot (hair got damaged and grew in dark) or simply a spot that never greyed out?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Wallaby said:


> Coming into this discussion late, but my gray mare had some kind of sweet-itch thing in the summer time where she'd end up scratching her butt raw if she wasn't bathed weekly.
> All it took was bathing her one day too late, and bam, she'd have found something to rub herself raw on during the night.
> 
> The first time it happened, the hair that grew back in was light gray and had essentially greyed out again by the next summer - you could see a faint line, but it was barely noticeable.
> ...


Wow, that's like a mini-version of my mare's butt spot! Except hers is much, much smaller and it has been there as long as I've owned her and it hasn't changed. Unless I go out there tomorrow and find it's gone or something! :biglaugh:

People keep telling fleabit greys actually increase in fleabits as time goes on. But on the 2 I've owned, I can't say I've really noticed a change in the concentration of fleabits. They appear a little different in winter vs. summer because of the length of the hair. But I can't say I've noticed them increasing at all. I really can't say I've noticed them decreasing either.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Showing on the Arab circuit when freeze brands were popular in the 90s I have seen grey Arabs with freeze brands. Both with black hairs and hairless brands. I was told it happened depending on how long the brand was left on. It was supposed to be left on to hairless but apparently it is a fine line and can go either way. I have seen both. That is what was explained to me when I was braiding them. 

The mark on the forehead could be with a scar OR somatic mark- basically a bloody shoulder mark on the forehead.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> I found a (not very flattering) picture of the spot on my mare's head on my computer.
> 
> What do you guys think caused this? Is it the grey equivalent of a corn spot (hair got damaged and grew in dark) or simply a spot that never greyed out?


Looks to me like a spot where the hair did not grow back


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I can find this info, regarding re growth of hair over a scar, on roan horses, but can anyone link to some color genetic site, that gives a similar occurrence with greys, and not just anecdotal type evidence? Some roan horses are also mistakenly called grey


'Roan horses don’t get lighter over the years, as gray horses do, but some get darker with age. Roan horses do change seasonally, but the lower legs, head, mane & tail will always stay colored. In the summer it may be more difficult to tell if a light colored horse is roan but the points and the head will be darker than the body. Interestingly when roan horses are injured the hair over the scars usually grows back colored, instead of the white seen with most other horses.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Looks to me like a spot where the hair did not grow back


Except that there IS black hair there. No doubt it, it's a patch of black hair. The only question is if is a somatic mutation or a spot that grew back in black.

What about Wallaby's horse. Isn't that solid evidence that the hair can grow back in dark? On my girl I don't know if she's always had the black spot or what, but Wallaby said Lacy got the black patch after rubbing herself raw on something.

I'm going to go try to get some close-up pictures. We are having awful 60 mph winds today, but I will see what I can do. 

Yes, in some early stages of grey, people will get them confused for roans, but I don't think that's the case with a horse that is fleabit grey.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Photos. :blueunicorn:

First is a better photo of her head spot. 2nd and 3rd photos are her rump spot. I think the rump spot definitely had to have been caused by an injury because of the shape and location. But all of these have black hair and are not simply hairless areas.

As you can see, there are also a few smaller, random black spots on her rump. I think this has to be something similar to corn spots in roans.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Don't know
Maybe the hair, if it has to regrow from the follicle level, then has to grey again?. All that dark hair appears shorter then the surrounding hair.
Not about to scar Charlie, to see If I can make her a colored Appaloosas again, instead of just a white horse!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Maybe the horse Dehda01 posted, is a chimera, or

"Bloody Shoulder Markings: Bloody shoulder markings are random patches of color on grey horses that simply do not grey out. Despite the name, they can be found anywhere on a horse's body.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

The horse I posted has a bloody shoulder mark on her head. I knew her, unfortunately I think I heard she passed recently. Warface by Dynamis.

Bloody shoulders are technically somatic mutations.

You would need to look at baby pictures/as your horse greyed out to figure out what that marking was on her forehead.


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