# Conformation critique on mare



## anonymity (Jan 8, 2019)

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on my mare? She is 13 y/o and 14.1hh for reference. :smile:


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

Kudos on providing a picture where he horse is standing on flat, hard ground squarely!

If possible, it would also be good to have front and hind pictures instead of just lateral.

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She appears to be:
- *slightly* downhill (?)
- over at the knee
- sickle-hocked (?)
- a tad long in the back
- upright shoulders
- slightly shallow heart-girth (?)

She looks like a nice mare, though.

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Her hooves are are not exactly "ideal" - looks like too much toe and heel. 

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What is that bracelet thing on the left, right hind in the first picture?


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

α CMa;1970661715 said:


> What is that bracelet thing on the left, right hind in the first picture?


*left hind pastern*

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How far apart were these pictures taken? They look rather different to me....


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## anonymity (Jan 8, 2019)

Thanks! The bottom picture is about 2 years old, top is a couple months old. And the fetlock band has my phone number on it in case of emergencies.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Welcome to the Forum...
For a first post...whew... :|
I agree with some of the previous posters comments but not all...

_So, I love her markings._
She has a nice mix of markings, where she needs to be brown to keep away sunburn tendencies she is...
She has enough "flash" to be very eye catching.

I like her eye.
She has a nice flat forehead and wider set eyes.
Nicely shaped ears and nice placement on her head.
I'm not thrilled with her throatlatch area...it is thicker than I prefer.
Her neck appears short and thick with a high tie-in on her chest.
She is heavy on her front end and to light for my taste on her hind...
Currently she is very under-muscled and that itself can change appearances dramatically.
I like her front legs and flat knees...a little straighter pasterns all around but it matches her shoulder and hind end angle. 
She is if at all a small bit behind but not much...actually she has some thickening at her front pasterns from ????
She has a nice tie-in of her neck top to her wither which is average sized and shape.
She has a dropped topline look to her whether from being out of shape or the beginning of swayback not sure.
She looks pretty even top line to belly, a deeper heart-girth line if you look past the dropped back.
Her hind end to me is weak...
I would like her more if her sacroiliac joint was forward of where it is.
That gives her a appearance of a steeper croup...
Her hind legs are straighter than my taste with a sickle & cow-hocked appearance. 
Again straighter pastern but they match all the other angles of the horse....
There is something about her left hind ankle that makes me want to look closer...
Her feet appear small for her size, typical of many quarter horses...
Her front feet need a better angle to them as they look... wrong but can't tell you why except I see a broken line {hoof gurus help!!}
The way she is standing she could be overweight...know she is our-of-shape and that can so change the build the eye sees.
I _*do*_ like her very much.
She looks like a fun ride, legs set to make her handy and get around with some ease and quickness.
Some small tweaking done to her stance, her muscling and presentation for pictures taken and you would have a very different comment from me...
Your horse is a diamond in the rough...she has many really nice traits.
A few that need minor tweaks and a eye with how to set-up to minimize the weak and emphasize the strong...
She would be welcome in my barn and part of my herd...
ENJOY her...she is really cute.
:runninghorse2:...


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## α CMa (Dec 5, 2018)

horselovinguy said:


> Her front feet need a better angle to them as they look... wrong but can't tell you why except I see a broken line {hoof gurus help!!}


Subtle, but I kind-of see it too.

There's something about her hooves in the second picture that... doesn't seem... quite right...? It looks... more "boxy" or a stretched cone.... Her toes and heels seem a bit long for my taste, especially compared to the first.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

α CMa;1970661735 said:


> There's something about her hooves in the second picture that... doesn't seem... quite right...? It looks... more "boxy" or a stretched cone.... Her toes and heels seem a bit long for my taste, especially compared to the first.



I think a change to her stance was being worked toward...
Elongate the hoof, toe and heel and hope to change the hind stance of the other picture that looks more like someone chopped the foot off...
Her being trimmed so short makes my feet hurt...
Either way...you don't normally mess with this kind of stuff at a age this mare presents as or suffer the possibilities of a sore, miserable and lame horse.
I will clarify that last sentence... "I would not mess with her stance knowing what you change in one spot like this is going to mess with her someplace else...and that may not be a good end result found."

_jmo..._
:runninghorse2:...


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I actually disagree with most of the above. *ETA- this was in regards to the first comment several more since I posted. I completely agree with her looking like a different horse with proper hoof angles and help with her muscling, making her good points shine. The problem with these pictures is they enhance her bad points and something like her feet which is NOT a conformation issue will make everything look worse than it is.*

But her feet definitely need work. I also think they're throwing the angle of her legs off. Hard to tell if she's cowhocked or sickle hocked in back but definitely off, see how she is "squatting" in the first pic? I don't see it so much in the second so don't want to say too much, but it is her conformation just made worse by how she is standing. Her legs are pretty fine boned compared to the rest of her, though she may be a tad "fluffy" it looks like?

Her back is long, I would really try to emphasize riding her correctly and getting her to lift and build muscle on her back, she's sort of "upside down" right now. She also looks a little unbalanced front to back in the second picture, but the pictures ARE very different in some regards, she's braced in the first one, in the second her hind looks pretty light compared to her front. May be tricky to fit with the sway right behind her withers (she is NOT swaybacked though, it's just how her back attaches)

I think her shoulder is fine, the color throws it off and it looks worse due to her neck attachment, which- her neck is weird. I can't quite put my finger on it but it ties into her body weird and is sort of thin, but curvy? throatlatch may be a little thick.

Overall not a bad horse, very pretty too! I would definitely want something to change with the feet and to make her back as strong as possible. Her legs aren't amazing but I suspect they aren't anywhere near as bad as they look, just something to keep in mind if you want to push her physically. Definitely more of a western type, collection type work will be more difficult for her. What do you do with her?


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## anonymity (Jan 8, 2019)

Yogiwick: Thanks! Her feet are more balanced now, went through a couple farriers. She is a bit fluffy; she has been very lightly used throughout her life (she's never done anything too strenuous). We've trained up to 1st level dressage and have done short (<2 mile) trail rides. Most rides consist of working on collection because it is naturally more difficult for her. Her legs aren't as great as I'd like - she did sustain a suspensory injury in the RF a few years back.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Nothing really to add that hasn't been said above about her body, except I'd emphasise what Yogi said about trying to get her back fitter before riding. She looks pretty heavy in the recent pic too. Hard to tell though, but if she could stand to lose a bit, that would help her posture too - she looks uncomfortable in the first pic. 

As for the feet... Obviously the last pic shows they're quite long in the toes all round. Then in the latter, they're a lot shorter, better looking *superficially, only going off one pic not focussing on feet so... But they do look *possibly* a tad short in the toe, broken forward angles now. If you wanted to post proper hoof pics for critique, there's a hoofcare section here & the link in my signature line will give you guidelines for what angles etc are needed.

So... IF the horse had any articular osteo arthritis or such, then it *may* not be advisable to try to 'correct' angles, but otherwise, if it's not done suddenly, getting the horse's feet in better shape is a good move, and will likely change the posture for the better. The horse may well need some chiro work or such along with hoof changes, as her body may need help adjusting too. As with the back being gotten strong with exercise may change the shape of it - so it's postural rather than innate, unchangeable 'conformation' - the 'over at the knee' thing, shoulder angle etc can be postural due to hoof balance too. *Over at the knee I would generally suspect weak caudal foot(DC's & LC's) - regardless of 'rightness' of angles for her, she may not want to weight weak heels - and at her age, that is something that probably wont change much for the better even with ideal circumstances. Therefore she may need extra padding protection for comfort under her heels(not under the walls tho), when working on hard ground. That, rather than hoof balance may allow her to relax on her heels & 'fix' the forward at the knee.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Welcome!! I think she is beautiful, and don’t see many of the things that the first responses indicate.

I’ll start at the top front, and work my way back.

Her head and eye are nice. Her head is tied beautifully into her neck, with a nice, open throat. Her neck is gorgeous, pretty shape, and decent length. Her shoulder has a very nice slope. Her knee may be a little over, but not significantly. Her hoof angles look WAY better than the before! Her withers are nice and run well into her back. Her back is a reasonable length for a stock horse mare, and her hip is nice. Her overall stance in that picture is defensive, as if the Bobcat is coming to get her, so I used the other picture for hind end assessment. She may be a little sickle hocked, but that is OK, to overcome her slightly long back.

Very pretty! Is she a Paint Horse? If she is, I would love to see her pedigree. My in-laws bred Paints in the 1970’s through the 1990’s.


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## anonymity (Jan 8, 2019)

greentree: Thank you! Yes her stance is a little defensive, she was angry/worried about something (I forget what lol). She's grade, all I know is her sire was a Paint. I think her dam was something else...maybe an Azteca as those are very common in my area. Any guesses on what she could be crossed with though?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I took this from @a Cma's post:

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She appears to be:
- *slightly* downhill (?)
I agree, slightly downhill

- over at the knee
I don't see over at the knee. I see a very nice, flat, even knee. I'd be interested to see it from the front view, to see if it has that 'open, shield-shaped , large joint of a good , solid knee, . . or no.

- sickle-hocked (?)
I'm not seeing that. if you visually bring the leg back until the lower leg is perfectly vertical, it should be vertical in a line that just touched the back edge of the buttocks. I think this horse will do that. to me, 'normal' hock angles for a qh type.

- a tad long in the back
I thought that, too, when I first saw the photo. However, 'long in the back' should always be considered from the TOP of the horse, not the underside. this mare's underside IS long, but her topline is not. In fact, it is on the short side, and that ties in to my next remark . . .

- upright shoulders


I do not see an upright shoulder. if you look at the angle of the shoulder, it is actually modestly laid back. But, the wither is somewhat prominant, thus making the shoulder look upright. Additionally, the point of shoulder is relatively high, with a sloping downward angle to the 'elbow'. This often makes for a hrose that can 'tuck up' those front legs in a tidy jump.

- slightly shallow heart-girth (?)


I would agree, in fact, her entire shoulder is on the small side. However, since her belly is dropping down, it can make her shoulder and heart girth appear smaller in comparison. 


She looks like a nice mare, though.


I agree, just appears out of shape.

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Her hooves are are not exactly "ideal" - looks like too much toe and heel. 


I agree. the angles on the front are too low and becoming underrun.

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__________________________________________________


It is very interesting how you ask for a conformation critique from a large group of people, and you'll get a large discrepancy in opinions, sometimes the exact oppossite.


I am going to base my comment on the upper photo only, since it is the more recent. ( will say, though, that looking at the lower photo, one can see that she has gained weight, and is FAT now. fat.)


<My remarks are in brown


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks for posting a paint horse conformation! The patterns always present such a challenge to the eye. She has a really pretty face, her neck is a bit short and she looks long in the loin. I like her back legs better than her fronts. She has a nice healthy and shiny coat. Looks a bit overweight in the belly or was she a brood mare? Looks like a real sweetheart!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

The problem is the lower picture is outdated and her head is turned. The upper picture may be more current but she is standing oddly (I like the term "defensive") which throws things off.

Interesting you're working on collection with her due to it being more difficult. I mean, there's no reason she can't do it or can't do lower level dressage though she will likely struggle if you try to do it competitively. If this were my horse I would do lots of long and low with her, I don't know if you've tried that, and try to fix her upside down muscling and weak back. I know it's hard when the horse is in light work and I definitely am not someone to comment on muscling in critiques unless you're posting a halter horse or a horse that is underconditioned for what it is doing, but my thoughts on her muscling is more to get her back strong to help her long term health vs "looking pretty" if that makes sense. True collection would help her back muscles of course, but better muscling will help her with collection. Horses are so interesting lol.


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