# Can you do a proper join up w/o a round pen?



## replica (Aug 13, 2011)

Hey,

Can you do the monty robert's join up without a round pen? 
He seems very precise on the type of area that you do join up in but I have no access to a round pen and was wondering if I can achieve the same results in an alternative area and if anyone has had success?
Sorry if this has been asked and mentioned somewhere before,
Thanks.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

My understanding of Join up is basically that the horse is made to see that you are the most importantthing for hims to focus on and that he will feel most comfortable near you as opposed to far away from you.

This is really the same concept as "walking down a horse", which is used to catch a horse in a large paddock or pasture when the horse doesnt' want to be caught.

YOu are basically moving the horse off , following it and waiting to see if it will turn back and come to you. If it does, you allow it to, make being with you a good place and then walk off and see if it will follow you.
practice sending the horse away and then asking it to come back with body language ala monty roberts. you could do that in a pasture if it wasnt' too big.


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## replica (Aug 13, 2011)

I've tried it in the paddock and a circled tape fence in the past but lately the problems I've had is her attention will drift off somewhere else and I can't get her to move at all.
If I put pressure on her it seems to become dangerous and she threatens to kick out and shes charged at me and reared in the past though I did stand my ground - but now I can't even get her to move off at all she just starts eating.
I read the other thread about problems w/ charging but I honestly don't know how I can make myself any more scary - even with a lunge whip cracking shes not bothered, I can't lunge her at all anymore either.
Nothing phases her, unless I turn into a huge scary tractor, she doesn't listen to anything, riding is the same.

I'd imagine a round pen / sand would probably help make me a focus, but I've probably got more problems than that! Perhaps I've even ruined her by trying to do join up - she was never like this before 
I'm really fed up of her taking the pee!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

replica said:


> I've tried it in the paddock and a circled tape fence in the past but lately the problems I've had is her attention will drift off somewhere else and I can't get her to move at all.
> If I put pressure on her it seems to become dangerous and she threatens to kick out and shes charged at me and reared in the past though I did stand my ground - but now I can't even get her to move off at all she just starts eating.
> I read the other thread about problems w/ charging but I honestly don't know how I can make myself any more scary - even with a lunge whip cracking shes not bothered, I can't lunge her at all anymore either.
> Nothing phases her, unless I turn into a huge scary tractor, she doesn't listen to anything, riding is the same.
> ...


Maybe your lunge whip needs to do more than make noise if she is kicking & charging at you.


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## replica (Aug 13, 2011)

Like what? If your saying hit her I don't see how that would help.
Specially with a lunge whip, she doesn't even respond to a crop..


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## ScharmLily (Nov 23, 2009)

You do not need a round pen. Monty himself has done join up with a mustang on acres of land. He even has a segment on his online uni about doing join up without a round pen. You do need to be somewhat athletic though, and it will likely take longer. If you have a riding ring that is fenced in, this is suitable and can even be sectioned off in some way to make it smaller.

I have found join-up to be easiest in a round pen, but since I don't have one myself, I have always made do with my small ring.

However, as much as I like Monty's methods, if join up isn't working for you, then there is no rule that says you can't try something different. I did find one horse that I couldn't join up with and he displayed much of the same behavior as your horse. I am sure that given enough time, more education on my part, and the right environment that join-up could have been achieved, but I didn't end up wanting to buy the horse anyway, so he went back to his owner. For a horse that is this difficult, a real round pen would probably be best. I do really like Monty's dually halter and I think that doing some basic groundwork with her to earn you some more respect would be a good place to start.


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't do exact join up but something similar. Round pen is ideal but not necessary. I worked with horse in a big pasture in a herd... I took much more time and needed more condition ;P but worked.
Basically if you say her to move - she MUST move.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Welcome to the forum Replica.

Though I can see how they might seem similar there is a big difference between Join-up (as coined by Monty Roberts) and 'Walking Down'. (which is the technique used with Shy Boy etc)

I do not agree with join-up personally, I will make that clear from the start. However, in terms of how it works, you are triggering the horses flight mechanism. Effectively you are creating constant and uninterrupted pressure (fear) until the horse submits and you offer it a way out (often based on 'flooding' principles too which is what Monty often relies on). That way out is to stick by you. (or else get driven around again)

This is quite different from walking down. Walking down should not trigger the flight response. You are moving the horse, much as they often do to each other. However the difference is that you offer relief when they turn to look at you. Then you work on draw (as in bringing them to you). If they ignore or move away then people drive them again. You are not asking for submission. Hence I have less of an issue with this than join-up.

Both are forms of conditioning yes, but both have different intents and different physiological effects on the horse.



> Perhaps I've even ruined her by trying to do join up - she was never like this before


Don't worry I'm sure thats not the case but back to your issue. What WAS the problem? Why did you try to do 'join-up' if she wasn't like this already? What were you trying to achieve?


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## LetThatPonyRun (Aug 16, 2011)

I was just reading this and I know what the Join-up method is but I was interested in what the Walking Down method is? Can you explain what it is, like what it involves?


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## replica (Aug 13, 2011)

@ doe:
Thanks for the welcome C:
Well I wanted to try join up for various reasons, one I’ve always been interested in this method of horsemanship and I wanted to try it for myself and two I wanted to try develop a bond she’d understand to start the foundations of her learning respect.

I've achieved follow up once but she didn't really given any signs of submission but I asked her to join up as she was getting aggressive again, she followed me around until someone came up to the pen and she went over to them :evil:

She’s a very dominant character and is the alpha mare when put in a herd, which probably makes the job a hundred times harder, she has little ground manners or concept space at all – would pull you all over the place, walk all over you. Though she has improved since using the dually halter this has helped.
She used to lunge very well and listen to voice commands but she doesn’t at all anymore, she won’t move on when you ask her and if you put too much pressure on her to do she gets aggressive.
I’m finding difficult to overcome this and I hate how she is dictating on what work she’s doing, she’s too intelligent for her own good! There is only one thing on her mind, always, and that is food.

Other than that she’s not a nasty horse at all, never kicks ( unless we’re talking about the lunging/join up situation) or bites and easy as hell to tack up and a bombproof ride. 
But she’s really taking the **** lately, the lunging, she’s started napping on hacks, she just doesn’t respond to leg,voice commands, or crop, she’ll do anything to get out of work to just eat.
I also can't get her to canter on command anymore -which was hard in the first place and I could only do it through voice as she was broken to drive. I don't really know how to do anything and not being able to lunge makes it even harder. Oh and before anyone asks shes not in pain,healthy, yada yada.
When she has done something once she’s not interested anymore and I’m running out of ideas


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## x Bustie and Alli x (Jan 15, 2011)

Is she currently in a herd situation or on her own?


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## replica (Aug 13, 2011)

Shes totally on her own, the only other horse near is a shetland that lives next door.


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## x Bustie and Alli x (Jan 15, 2011)

meby see if you can keep her away from the shetland too as shel see the shetland as company when really you want her to want your company most. 
I tried walking down Alli this morning. Really thought it would take ages cz she never seems to respond well to that sort of thing but truley, she walked over to me after about 4 sendoffs. 

The first time I sent her away the rope from the halter 'bit' her bum and she shot off. after that just the snaking of the rope or waving of my arm sent her away. I'm not saying hit her lots, but if a horse did something another horse didn't like it would get bitten/kicked/butt-swinged-towards. Replicate this with whatever works. Stick with rustly bags on? anything she moves from will work for walking down - i think  no expert tho  - basically find something she hasn't experienced before and use it to MAKE her listen. Don't stop till you get a response you want. Even if its just a slighlty lowered head


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## replica (Aug 13, 2011)

I don't think the shetland makes any difference really! she can't see her from her paddock / or when I'm working.
& when I'm riding her and I go to the bordering fence to say hi to the bearpony , shes not interested in the slightest!

Problem is she doesn't find anything scary? the only thing that makes her listen/spook her are huge vehicles. I've literally smacked her with all my might once with a crop because she was ****ing about when hacking not listening to my leg / kept napping pulling the reins to eat. Not even the slightest response she didn't even bloody notice!
I guess I could try the bags, I have thought of that before no idea what her reaction will be but I doubt theyd be much of one


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## x Bustie and Alli x (Jan 15, 2011)

Oh ok. Alli is scared of shetlands for some reason lol.

Sorry distracted  If she really is that bombproof then I'm sort of out of ideas... What about loud crashy sounds? Just a random idea so I'll probs sound slightly crazy here but how about a metal dustbin lid being banged? Sounds like a backfiring vehicle?


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Replica

Obviously its leadership issues in that you aren't leading her and she knows it. There are many many ways to address this. If (and its all relative) she is truly a very dominant horse, then I wouldnt want to encourage you to try and dominate her physically in a round pen or online.

If she is food motivated then theres your place to start.

If a horse is disrespectful around food or dominant then this is what I do. I dont know if you stable her, but if you do then offer her some food in a feed bucket. Personally I open the door and stand there a few feet back (out of strike range) They have to offer me both ears, upright, focussed on me with no sign of agression. One ear isnt enough. One ear and a hard eye isnt enough. If they step forward I move them back. They do not cross that threshold. They get the food the SECOND they offer two ears and soft eyes with no disrespectful signs or impatience. Even with horses that are fine that remains the cue - its just a daily tune up lets say. If you need to have a stick or whip in your hand tap them on the chest (make sure you are out of the front strike zone) or even use one of those door chain things at first if you need to.

Another very powerful way to set rules is to take feed to the field. Put it down and keep them away from it. You are claiming it. You control it. If she approaches ask her to stop in her tracks. If she doesnt - chase her away however you need to. Take a long rope and whirl it, throw it, bags on sticks anything you personally need to keep a safe distance but make her move. Then go back to the bucket. Keep repeating until she stops when you ask, and offers the same passive expression as described above. Then you can invite her in to the food and move away.

Control over food is a very powerful way to establish dominance, as well as establishing your space, and the beginnings of communication, and her having to take notice of you, without needing to physically fight with her.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Incidentally its not that shes not scared by anything. Its just that she reads your intent and so knows she doesnt need to be scared by it. She's secure and to a point thats a good thing. If you have the determination and conviction then she'll move for a feather being waved at her.

Use whatever you need to. Ultimately its you that she needs to be moved by, its you that she needs to come to respect, not the object in your hand. Otherwise she will know to run over you when you dont have a whip. So use what you need to, to get her attention, but focus on YOU. Be strong, be firm, but dont get angry. Anger is weakness and she is more likely to fight that.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Horses retreat into a safe place in their brain, zone out and will often take all kinds of abuse as they are disconnected. Take your lunge whip with you, hold the lash and point it downward and behind you. Circle around until you are directly behind your horse but far enough away to not get kicked. Then with energy, run up behind her and stop on the spot she was grazing. She may bolt but won't run very far. Stay on the spot a few seconds then repeat this until she begins to turn and face you with both eyes, not just one. This establishes you as the more dominant. Horses do this all the time. You whip is "just in case" so you most likely won't be using it. When she turns to face you slump your shoulders so you look a little smaller and let out a big breath. Don't move while she is facing you. She may wish to approach, If not try stepping back a few steps as horses often follow what is moving away. If she won't approach you, she's unsure. Wait until she's grazing then circle around and repeat the exercise. If you spend an hour or so doing this it's time very well spent. You are gaining her trust and respect as you assert your leadership.


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## replica (Aug 13, 2011)

Sigh, I stupidly tried to lunge / lead her over some small jumps today – she is such a pig and has absolutely no respect for anyone or anything when there is grass.
I had the dually head collar on and attached it to a long lead line, bad idea as these stupid ropes seem to have no grip what’s so ever – she was dragging me all over the place if I managed to get her up she would be off again, she is impossible to control.
The dually, the lunge whip, crop, smacks NOTHING matters if she’s on the mission to eat.
I tried with just a normal lead rope and though that gave me more control she was still dragging me and eating and I was finding it impossible to keep her head up, I would walk few paces and then she’s pulls off again to a juicy patch of grass.
Even when I managed to pop over the small jump, she instantly dived to the grass again, bum in my face – its seriously making me angry her pure disrespect is really ****ing me off.

She is turned out 24/7 and always has food and treats – hardly deprived. When I give her a bucket of feed she isn’t possessive over it either, I can easily take the bucket away from her if need be and she doesn’t get aggressive.
She is perfectly capable of walking politely and backing up when asked but the minute grass comes into the equation she is like an ox.

*Doe,* I’ll try your advice about possessive the bucket – She’s kept out in grass fenced in mainly by a electric fence, something she does respect so I guess I could chase her away and claim her bucket of feed by waggling the fence a bit? I don’t really know what else I could do to chase her off at a safe distance.
I just don’t know how I can translate this respect over to leading and then eventually lunging again, she’s going to be re-broken to drive soon as her owners want to get a cart for her – god knows how that’s going to work at the moment when she has no respect for anything or anyone.


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## replica (Aug 13, 2011)

*@Saddlebag:*
Not totally sure what you mean, so.. at a far distance directly behind her run up - assuming she moved away and claim the place she was at?
I can see how this would work with some horses, but im 90% sure she won’t move at all.
I will try it though, but isn’t this the same sort of concept as join up? What happens if she starts rearing/charging at me again.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

If you cannot MOVE your horse on the ground, then how can you move them in the saddle? Chances are that when the pony moves under saddle it's only becaues that she wanted to go there anyway.

Can you move this horse when they are on a leadline? I mean forward, backward and to both sides? This is rock bottom for horse training; moving the horse in all directions off the leadline.

You will eventually want to be able to do this with your body language.

I bet this horse/pony can totally be moved by body language. She just knows that you are already pretty certain she will not move, she reads your lack of committment.

Go toward her with something in you hand, or a plastic bag tied on the end of your whip and whip it all aorund. I mean move toward her like a crazy man! Fall apart! go wacko! Make your horse's eyes pop out of her head wondering what the heck is up with you! 
GET HER ATTENTION. Once you get her attention, you can direct her attention and her feet and that is what you need to be doing.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

You don't want her to move because she's afraid. She should move because you told her to. Ask. Suggest. Demand.


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## replica (Aug 13, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> I bet this horse/pony can totally be moved by body language. She just knows that you are already pretty certain she will not move, she reads your lack of committment.
> 
> Go toward her with something in you hand, or a plastic bag tied on the end of your whip and whip it all aorund. I mean move toward her like a crazy man! Fall apart! go wacko! Make your horse's eyes pop out of her head wondering what the heck is up with you!
> GET HER ATTENTION. Once you get her attention, you can direct her attention and her feet and that is what you need to be doing.


I disagree saying that I have a lack of commitment, if I hold the pressure up and she gets aggressive what am I supposed to do? get kicked in the face, charged at?

Its easy enough to say demand and make her move, but I've already tried what your suggesting. She is blind and death to everything when she is intent on eating something she seriously is.
Like how the hell am I supposed to get her attention by jumping up and down screaming at her, I could run right up to her with guns blazing and she would totally ignore me, perhaps kick me in the head and graze over my dead body.

This is a horse that doesn't even notice low flying jets and helicopters whilst grazing, I really don't think attaching bags to sticks is going to get her togive me a blind bit of notice.

She can and does listen sometimes, but the minute she has the chance and the temptation of food is there she is totally over powering I honestly don't know how to stop it.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

replica said:


> I disagree saying that I have a lack of commitment, if I hold the pressure up and she gets aggressive what am I supposed to do? get kicked in the face, charged at?
> 
> Its easy enough to say demand and make her move, but I've already tried what your suggesting. She is blind and death to everything when she is intent on eating something she seriously is.
> Like how the hell am I supposed to get her attention by jumping up and down screaming at her, I could run right up to her with guns blazing and she would totally ignore me, perhaps kick me in the head and graze over my dead body.
> ...


Replica

I appreciate it may be frustrating but it's fact. If the horse isn't moving then she is more committed than you. She feels comfortable ignoring you. At worst you are an annoying bee to her.

I would suggest you get some help from someone who knows what they are doing. However if you are not able then revert to the more traditional methods. (not my preference but good if you are new to horses) You need a halter, and a long rope or rope and whip.

When she ignores you and eats grass, stand facing her but to one side (say her right side) so you are facing her bum, hold the line and walk in an arc towards her loin. If she doesn't move wave the whip or line more and more until she gets a firm whack. When she picked her head up and moves her bum relax. Then move around again. Mke your language very determined, turn your head and look hard at her loin if you need to at first. Then relax when she turns to face you and looks at you. Keep your left arm up as you move around her right side so you can protect your face in case she spins around, also it helps to lock your halter arm out dodge cannot shoot forward and put you in the kick zone.

An alternative method is to walk into her head. Walk at her head shaking the line or your hands (as if shaking eater from your fingers) if she doesn't move then simply walk into her neck - walk through her. Make her yield her front end and turn away from you with the front. You can even walk at her spraying a water mist at her face as many horses don't like sprays or water in their faces (horses usually stand with their bums in the direction of rain)

These are very crude but very effective methods for intial ground control.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

By moving her, suddenly run toward her and wave your lunge whip and other arm high in the air. If she's still not moveing slap your whip onto the ground. It's the element of surprise. She will likely scoot off which is what you want. Claim her space a few seconds then walk her down again. Don't yell at her but you can make a loud sshhh as you run at her.


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## GrittyCowgirl (Oct 21, 2009)

replica said:


> Like what? If your saying hit her I don't see how that would help.
> Specially with a lunge whip, she doesn't even respond to a crop..


Your horse is basically telling you to take a hike when she does this. It can into really dangerous behavior! By telling you to use the lunge whip on her, we (the above poster and I) are not telling you beat her as hard as you can, but simply tell her that isn't acceptable. What I do with young horse that try this in the round pen or on a lunge line is to take the lunge whip and lightly let the string end graze their hocks or fetlocks (if lightly grazing doesn't work, do it a little harder until it becomes uncomfortable for them and they get the message). It doesn't really hurt them, simply tells them they better get their legs back under them or the real work will start! 
Do you see horses kicking out at the dominant mare without reprocution?? You have to be the herd leader when working your horse and let her know you are pulling rank on her... Its why the herd listens to the dominant mare! She is the smarter one that keeps them out of harms way and she needs to see you as this leader as well!


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

With respect to the many post on respect in this context I am going to offer an alternate explanation for the behaviour your observing in your mare.

Horse behaviour, like the behaviour of the vast majority of animals, even humans, is driven by what results in a good consequence or a bad consequence. Any behaviour that results in a consequence the animal values will be repeated or reinforced. Behaviour that results in a consequence the animal doesn't like or value won't be repeated or will be weakened. This is called the law of effect and it underpins all horse training and horse-human interactions.

In the case of your mare, the food is a consequence which she values very highly. It is known as a primary reinforcer and she along with all horses and indeed all animals, has evolved to seek and consume it. Any behaviour that she performs that gets her to food, gives her time to eat it, or prevents other horses (or humans) from accessing her food will be remembered and repeated any time she either is trying to get or keep others away from her food. Undoubtedly, when given a choice between food and doing what you ask, the food is going to be much more reinforcing than you, the rewards of sticking with the food much greater and so she is going to be much more motivated to do what she can to keep access to the food. Particularly as the things you may want her to do aren't actually that fun or rewarding for her- doing circles in a round pen, going for a ride etc.

It is highly unlikely horses have the cognitive skills to plan into the future- after all they don't need to strategise to eat grass, all they need to do is find it. Consequently, in any given moment they are behaving in ways that they believe best meets their needs at that time. Any tme she has access to that food, that's her best interest met. In order to change that you do need to expose her to a stimulus that is stronger than the reward of the food, and as many people have suggested, that stimulus may have to be quite strong to overcome the attraction of the food.

In effect, you need to tip the balance from food being the most rewarding to doing what you want as the most rewarding in that instance. To do that you will need to apply a pressure so that avoiding the pressure is a greater reward than continuing to eat. Avoidance of pressure is another primary reinforcer for horses and they, along with most herbivores have evolved to avoid it. We utilise the desire of horses to avoid pressure on their bodies as the basis for just about everything we do with them. We apply a pressure to motivate them to change what they are doing, they respond as we want, we release the pressure. The release of the pressure is rewarding, the horse is likely to respond in the same way next time it feels that pressure. From a survival perspective, when given the chance between satisfying the need to eat and the need to flee a predator who is trying to eat the horse, the horse will choose fleeing (pressure release) over the eating. That's what we tap into when we use pressure on the horse's nose, head etc to pull it away from a feed bin.

A word of caution though, in effect all horse training relies on horses seeking to escape pressure, so we need to make sure that when they do respond to our pressure cue as we want them to we release the pressure and thus reward the correct response. If we don't release the pressure the horse is likely to try other ways of getting that release and we don't generally appeciate those other ways as they can involve bucking, shying, kicking etc. However, if we release the pressure before the horse has responded correctly then what ever it was doing just before the pressure goes away is the behaviour that gets rewarded. Your mare kicking out at you is a classic example of this- she kicks out, you back away, she gets released from your presence, the kicking out behaviour is reinforced. 
Lastly, methods of training which involve chasing the horse or eliciting a flight response, or making him do endless circles don't teach the horse to respect you, and there is the strong possibility that the horse will form an association between you and fleeing, which is the opposite of what is intended. Flight responses in horses are usually related to fear, and there is now a lot of research suggesting that fearful memories are encorded differently to regular memories. Fearful memories can be recalled more quickly and powerfully than regular memories and the physiological responses engendered by the fear (adrenaline, increased heart rate, increased blood flow to skeletal muscles etc) switch on very quickly. We see this when a horse shies. So we should be very cautious about frightening our horse to get it to do something in case it learns to associate us with fear and then has that memory triggered in another context and when we least expect it. This is called spontaneous recovery and probably accounts for the majority of "out of the blue" hyperactive behaviours we experience with our horses when they buck, shy, rear etc for no apparent reason.

Rather than chasing your horse to catch it, using food (a primary reinforcer) is often highly effective, especially if you give it the food and then walk away. (Can be hard when there are several horses in the field). Advance retreat is also very effective, it is simply a form of pressure release which rewards the horse for standing still by the person backing away a few steps each time the horse stands still. It does take patience and the ability to read the body language of the horse so you back off before the horse starts to move away. I have used it successfully but am too impatient these days and use food and can call my herd of up to 20 horses and they will reliably canter up to the gate for their treat. We have big paddocks 60+ acres each so this is very handy.


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## HorseyyGal (Jun 20, 2011)

You can use a regular rectangle arena by fencing off the corners with poles  This was, it's octagional (sp?) & the horse cant stop in the corners. Next best thing to a round pen!


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

No I dont think you need I roundpen, but I believe it helps. Try attaching a plastic bag to the end of the lunge whip- it works!!  If you can afford (which i cant!!) and have enough time to set a roundpen up- get one!


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