# Obstacle course / Trail courses



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

As a lifelong trail rider, paying for my own horses non stop for sixty years, and having used one of my rescues as a lesson horse for small children:

I am not sure the current lease horse is the right horse for you

Your comment that the two of you are having some struggles but she was perfect for her owner, leads me to think the horse is nervous about your sight issues and is unsure.

It takes a special horse to essentially be a service horse like your dog is

Is there a therapy riding school in your driving distance that might be able to assist you in not only getting your confidence back but possibly help you find a horse more suited to you?

You are probably already attached to this Icey, but thankfully it is a lease horse. I honestly think there’s a horse better suited to your needs, out there somewhere. Which is why I suggest contacting a therapeutic riding school, regardless of what type of healing they focus on


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Most of it I find is mind over matter. If you don't mind it then it doesn't matter to the horse. That said it takes a trust that you have built and confidence in both yourself and your horse to just do it - whatever it is. 



I've done both riding and driving courses. Really wish there were competitions close to us and that the barn would do more of this. The BO has stuff out there and they do work on it more so when they are starting out but I think it builds a strong relationship.


ETA I'll second Walkin. We cross posted but after reading through your threads I have to agree. I also would agree as someone that has vision issues as well. Not every horse is suitable to someone with vision problems (or any other handicap for that matter) as we tend to bring our own baggage along for the ride. Some horses will happily tote that load too. Others not so much.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I too get the idea this horse is not the right one for you. I also think it sounds like you'd benefit from a good instructor to give you hands on help & advice.



Animalia said:


> but for me she is "testing" me and has become quite nervous, flinchy, and spooky. ... off. I then did this repeatedly over the course of a few minutes--trying to surprise her


This doesn't sound like 'testing' to me, sounds like major lack of trust/fear, for whatever reason, perhaps exacerbated 
By your sight probs. And doing things to 'try to surprise her' will likely just make it worse. As will kicking or otherwise trying to force a horse who's 'stuck' due to fear.


> obstacle courses? Did it help your relationship with a horse? Did it help your horse be less spooky? I am hoping to get out on the trails, but I don't trust this horse yet.


Whether its obstacles, dressage, western... whatever, it's not WHAT you do but HOW you do it.

I have always enjoyed obstacles & when we moved here we discovered an 'extreme cowboy racing'' club which we joined. Sim. to 'Extreme Trail' but with a racing component - when you're up to it. The instructor we first met (who only instructed as requested - we basically just did our own thing & she wandered around watching & helping when asked.) was big on it being something that should be done in such a way that the horse finds it easy & fun too. She wanted to focus on horsemanship skills over competition & goals. 1st few club meets were great, but i think she had a falling out with organiser & then things were different. 

I & my kids were told to 'just get on his case' if our horse was nervous about something(had 4 new horses with different, dubious backgrounds at the time). I watched people who's horses hesitated at an obstacle get stuck into their horse & persevere at making his life hell for 'refusing' until the horses who were originally just a little unsure, were terrified of the obstacle & frightened of their people. We went to a competition & watched people booting their horse with spurs, wrenching their heads around... in short, the unfortunately common really bad horsemanship you see in lots of places.

So... did it help our relationship, our horses be less spooky? Yes, generally. But it was just another experience to give them to *prove* our trustworthiness and leadership. Tho when I took my old boy, who I already have a great relationship with & was fine with all sorts, but has big... trust issues with strangers... he got nervous, what with others who were traumatizing their horses near him. 

And I wouldn't say *the obstacles & event* were what helped, but the way we went about it. There were many there who caused their horses to lose trust & respect in them, who became more spooky.

So.... you understandably don't trust this horse on trails. She sounds extremely untrusting of you too, and so she feel she must look out for herself, no one she can rely on, which makes her edgy & reactive. Obstacles can be great *tools* to help you *earn* trust & respect from your horse, but they don't actually do the earning for you. It's not about the(whatever thing).



> Would it be realistic of me to think I could enter at the Level 1 skill--where everything is done at the walk? This is all just walking through logs and suspension bridges and teeter boards--no fluttering stuff, pool noodles or tarps.


_JUST_ suspension bridges & stuff, and yet you're concerned about fluttering & pool noodles? :lol: find that amusing because it's back to front to so many people's attitude. But again, it's not the Thing, but about how trusting your horse is with you, how you introduce things, how you go about it. Yes, it is absolutely realistic that you & your horse could be up to this by April. Or it could be a really terrible idea to even go there, depending on your relationship with her.


> If I decide to do this, how do I train without the actual obstacles available to me?


In principle it shouldn't matter, because it's about your horse having trust in you, to follow your lead regardless of how it seems. Again, it's not about the 'thing'. In practice though, esp when you currently have such an UNtrusting horse, even if you're successfully earning her trust with little things at home, taking her to a comp without her being familiar & comfortable with 'stuff' is just setting her up for failure & would be a mistake imo.


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

So, I appreciate all of your thoughts and advice and caring about my safety. I think I might have undersold Draumsyn a bit--and myself--which is Really the problem. LOL I believe Draumsyn is, so far, a very safe horse. She was advertised as a horse for a "confident beginner and up". Well, I am an experienced rider--but I'm not real confident anymore and I think that above all is the problem. Not my eyes so much--except that they are part of the reason for me having lost confidence in myself overall, as a person. I've always had low self esteem and having physical challenges has made me doubt my worth in the world, or my reason for being alive even. 



The second part of this is, Draumsyn was not easy to find. What I mean is, in my area there were almost no horses available for lease--up to two hours away! For almost a year while I've been looking--just always only a small handful--like 4 or 5 at the most and they were all expensive performance/show horses--not just "come and out and have fun" horses. Since I can only go out once a week or so, the owner is only charging me $50/month. Since my husband had Stage IV cancer 5 years ago and has barely worked, and I'm on disability income this was almost unbelievable! And she was within driving distance--45 minutes away. And she was small and considered very safe and her owner is a young woman (who has other horses) who is so kind and laid back and so willing to work with me. I want to have her come out and help me work with Dee, I just haven't yet, because the two times I rode with her there--to "test" Dee and then the day I signed the lease--Dee just wants to be in her owner's pocket--whether I'm on her back or not. LOL Annoying and hard to get pointers. But maybe now that I've ridden a couple of months, that would be a good thing to work on--getting her to listen to me with her owner present--or in any situation. 



So, anyway, I don't have a lot of options for a lease horse and Dee has really been a dream come true in so many ways. I am done running away from challenges. I am doing this to get my riding chops back and honed and to grow as a rider. The therapeutic riding centers around here are expensive and the horses are dead broke robot horses and the students are just about all developmentally disabled kids. I don't need that kind of riding at this point in my life--I need a horse that has to be "ridden", whether it's fun or not. LOL It's more fun doing this, because when I do make a breakthrough it means so much and I am so proud of myself. 



I don't consider myself "disabled" in the tradition sense. I have some challenges, but I go hiking alone--with my dog off leash and running around loose. I went to Disneyworld with my mother and sister and walked the pants off of them--and navigated all 5 parks without my dog--and sometimes in the dark (I had my white cane but didn't even need to use it all the time) and a couple times, I struck off on my own through the parks. So, I really don't think my eyes are her problem--I think it's my own anxiety feeding her. And THAT I'm not going to run away from. I think she's the horse I need to be my mirror, but not be too unsafe so I can work through this. I think I've made some mistakes that might have made her a little more nervous too, and I'm working on correcting that--like trying to do "join ups" and chasing her around the round pen--when all she wants to do is be calm and/or follow me around. She will follow me anywhere on a lead line--trails, woods, around machinery, through and over obstacles etc. When I get done riding, I get off and walk around the arena--and let her loose while I gather my stuff and put obstacles/toys away and she follows me--healing like a dog--like she's glued to me--I have tried to play "keep away" and she just moves with me. It's very sweet and doesn't seem like she doesn't trust me. About once or twice per ride she will "balk" and throw her head a bit and act "barn sour" by trying to turn towards the exit. But a lot of horses do that. I've only known her for 2 months, her owner has known her for 7 years and trained her from a 7 year old who had never had a halter on--so they have been through a lot together--and Brianna (the owner) as I said is Uber mellow and relaxed. I'm getting there hopefully. 



Actually, I appreciate what you all said, and I think it made me examine my own situation and firmed my resolve to improve my bond with this horse and keep working on getting us smoother and it allowed me to defend my own abilities, which allows me to say good stuff about myself. LOL I need to do more of that. People tell me I have an excellent seat and that I'm a pretty good rider. Brianna was very impressed the day I came out and met her and rode Dee the first time--but I just brush it off as "people being nice" instead of accepting the compliment and believing it. LOL 



More later, time for dinner! Thanks again and I will be safe!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

OK, so sounds like it's not feasible that you find a different horse, and the problem is more about you rather than her anyway(respectfully - it usually is, not meaning to single you out...). Sounds like you appreciate that, and you CAN overcome it & become a great, confident leader with her. I do believe(from firsthand experience, as well as teaching scared kids & animals) you need to change your way of thinking/mindset about it all, to do so tho.



Animalia said:


> but I'm not real confident anymore and I think that above all is the problem. Not my eyes so much--except that they are part of the reason for me having lost confidence


Yes, the crux of the matter - that's why I wrote your eyesight possibly *exacerbates* issues - meaning I didn't believe that was the *cause*. Remember, horses are prey/herd animals. They get nervous & reactive without their herdmates/people they can trust, so if she can't trust you, due to your lack of confidence/nervousness, doesn't have other horses/people to rely one, she's of course going to be nervous, reactive, NOT safe. Through no fault of her own. It's just part of her being a horse. She may have been the 'perfect horse' with her owner, because she trusted her. She was probably 'in her pocket' when you rode with her, because she knew she couldn't trust you. 

Horses 'read' emotions & attitudes of ours we often aren't even aware of ourselves, so if you know you're a nervy, inconfident person, imagine how 'loud & clear' that's coming through to her. & horses can't think rationally, so she just feels your fear/anxiety & how can she feel safe with you, when you clearly don't feel safe within yourself? 

So, just like you would with a scared animal or child, I think to overcome that & gain confidence, esp with an animal who's going to react to your attitude, you need to stick to 'easy' stuff that's not likely to cause any reactivity/lack of confidence with either you or your horse. That may well mean sticking to 'baby steps' for a while. But with repetition of easy stuff, good feelings, etc, you will both become confident with those baby steps, and can move on to something that pushes you **just a little** out of your 'comfort zone'. Then with repetition of that 'level', you will both become confident with that & then find the next 'level'... etc. In that way, you can gradually 'stretch' your 'comfort zone' & become braver, without pushing either of you 'in the deep end', putting you in a situation that makes you anxious, makes her feel she needs to fend for herself...



> Dee just wants to be in her owner's pocket--whether I'm on her back or not. LOL Annoying and hard to get pointers. But maybe now that I've ridden a couple of months, that would be a good thing to work on--getting her to listen to me with her owner present


As said, I think that is a 'symptom' if you like, of her lack of confidence in you. While 'getting her to listen' while her owner's present may be a good way of tackling it, I think the reasoning is not just about 'getting her to listen' but that she will be more confident with her trusted leader, so she will be in a better state to listen to you - it will be easier, less stressful for her.



> I am done running away from challenges.


I guess what I'm trying to say is, no, don't run from challenges, but don't go at them like a 'bull at a gate' either & try to force issues. Instead, try to better understand & be considerate of your horse's feelings & reason for being reactive, and be kind & easy on yourself too!



> I think it's my own anxiety feeding her. And THAT I'm not going to run away from. I think she's the horse I need to be my mirror,


Yep, sounds like she's being that. So recognise that & realise that to change it, you need to find ways(like baby steps, making stuff easy & fun) to avoid 'going there'. Don't 'run away' but don't go there in the first place if you can help it.



> I think I've made some mistakes that might have made her a little more nervous too, and I'm working on correcting that


And remember, we ALL do. And we/you still will make more. Don't knock yourself for it, just try to learn for it - which it sounds like you are.


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

loosie said:


> I too get the idea this horse is not the right one for you. I also think it sounds like you'd benefit from a good instructor to give you hands on help & advice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you bring up some good points. I am not giving up on this horse yet. From what I've experienced, horses often test new riders until they are sure the new rider will be a good leader and will not let them get away with stuff. Since I've been having anxiety issues, I think we are struggling to find that path, but it's not been terrible, just a little frustrating at times. I've had some great rides with her too. 

As for "surprising" her, what I meant was that over the course of several minutes I kept randomly rubbing the saddle until she calmed down about it. Then I'd do it again a minute or so later when she wasn't expecting it again--and I kept desensitizing her and talking to her while I did it until it didn't bother her anymore. Then after a few minutes, I could randomly rub the saddle and she didn't care. I'm not sure why that day that particular noise or vibration worried her, but we did work past it. But I was a real ninny that day too. If horses are our mirrors, then she definitely has a lot to teach me about myself and I hope we can learn from each other and grow into a good partnership. I am going to work on sacking her out too. Her owner hasn't ridden her regularly for at least 2 years so I'm not sure she's seen her in all kinds of "moods". She had one other adult leaser before me who got along pretty well with Draumsyn--but again--the owner was just taking the woman's word for it--she was never there while they were riding. And now, I am sharing lease of the horse with a family with 3 little girls. The youngest is 3 years old! And the parents and the kids had NO experience with horses until they started leasing a "pony" for their daughters. They just put the girls on and lead her around. They refused the offer of lessons from the owner. But I wonder if those very young kids are spooking Draumsyn as well. Having 3 different kids squealing and banging around on your back might not make for a peaceful time, even if you are a normally good horse--and they see her 3x week while I only see her once--but I really ride and do groundowork with her. There are a lot of variables here I guess--not to mention she's only been at this boarding facility for a few months and the pasture and hay are much richer than she is used to, so I wonder if some of these nerves are nutritional. 



As for the obstacles, what you are saying makes perfect sense about it not being "things" but the relationship that is more important. And a big part of my wanting to get back into horses was me wanting to build a relationship with a specific horse--build that trust and respect between us--rather than just riding dead broke horses that don't care who you are and have been brow beaten into trusting any joker that gets on their back. So, in that way, I guess I have a golden opportunity in Draumsyn! I just need to be up to the challenge and willing to do a lot of groundwork and not always riding. I'm not sure about the competition, given all the circumstances, but it's definitely fun to have a focus. I am not going to push the issue on either myself or Draumsyn to be ready by April. But I want to do obstacle training anyway for interest and trust building. She's really good at walking over poles and teeter boards and around barrels and other obstacles--no problems--she loves it. She does not like riding circles around the outside of the arena--that's when she gets a little balky sometimes--after the 5th time around or so. LOL She wants to do the course again. She walks across a mattress with no problem, and up onto and over a truck tire platform (although I haven't done these two while riding her yet). But the "nervous" thing seems to be more about noises and "scar" fluttery stuff waving around. If I can desensitize her enough to get her to walk through an arch of dangling ribbons and drag a noisy bag behind her, I will feel very proud! 



One last question--I am getting so confused and frustrated at how to deal with correcting a horse. Everyone has a different opinion. I was taught to never let the horse decide to do anything on their own--always stay in control. And if they did "refuse" to do something to get on their case so that the easier path for them was just to DO the thing they were scared of or reluctant to do. I've also seen people say what you said about not putting so much pressure on so they don't hate life and you. So, if a horse is refusing to do something--whether from fear or stubbornness--what do you do? It can't be right to just let them get their way? Do you get off and lead them through (that's what I used to do on the trail if my horse was afraid of water or a bridge--but back then I could back on easily without a mounting block!). BUt then if I get off whenever she's having a minor tantrum or scared of something--won't that set up a bad precedent if she just wants me off her back she'll learn to act up more to get me off? As I said, she's not a bad horse, I've ridden bad, scary horses. So far, she's just moody and a little nervous. 



Thanks!


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I think you would benefit from slowing down a bit. I understand exactly how you feel, you want to get back to your previous level of riding and confidence pronto - else you feel like a failure. But it doesn’t really work like that. If you used to be a weightlifter in your youth and took it up after many years, I am quite sure you wouldn’t expect to get to the same level immediately, if ever.

You seem to be putting pressure on yourself to perform. Remember, you are not aiming for the Olympics. You will not starve if you don’t perform - this isn’t your job. You will not spoil the horse for ever and ever if you get off and lead her past something that she’s scared of. Even if you do make mistakes, you can correct them or the owner can if you cannot. 

Also, I said this on one of your previous threads - it’s winter. All horses are a bit spooky. Even if you just go out and love on her without riding until spring, I would consider that a win and time and money well spent. There is no rush. If you don’t feel confident riding now, just spend some time with her on the ground and wait for spring. She is likely to calm down a lot as the temperature rises and once you’ve ridden her through summer, you will be more confident come winter next year. This wouldn’t be a failure- it would be a wise choice to get to your goal without getting injured or scared so much that you give up riding.

You are putting yourself into a very difficult situation: an older - presumably less than fit - re-rider (no offense, I am not young or amazingly fit either), no lessons, you eyesight making you vulnerable, new horse in a new environment for both of you, in the middle of winter, riding on your own. This isn’t easy and you have my permission to give yourself a break


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I have read a few of your threads without commenting, but you now seem to be questioning your decisions and how the horse reacts to those decisions. 

It appears that you have "studied" some of the current gurus, many of which teach that "you must always be the leader" and "never let the horse make a decision" and "do not let the horse get within three feet of you without your permission" and similar stuff. 

I consider most of this to be BS. 

You have a horse that is described as kind, good with beginners, and friendly. She likes to follow people around, and is generally agreeable. 

But you seem to want to force her, instead of asking her. Why not let her follow you? Why not stroke her and tell her how wonderful she is? Why not enjoy her?

If it makes you and her both calmer and happier if you get off and lead her for a while when she is nervous. No shame in that! 

Being kind, friendly and loving to her will help you develop a bond.


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

AnitaAnne said:


> I have read a few of your threads without commenting, but you now seem to be questioning your decisions and how the horse reacts to those decisions.
> 
> It appears that you have "studied" some of the current gurus, many of which teach that "you must always be the leader" and "never let the horse make a decision" and "do not let the horse get within three feet of you without your permission" and similar stuff.
> 
> ...



Well honestly I've read, watched, studied and talked to everyone! That's part of the problem--too many people with differing opinions all claiming to be professional or experts. I too believe in the kinder approach and I tend to gravitate towards natural horsemanship the most--but even among those experts there is disagreement about how much pressure to put on a horse and how to "calm" them. I think I need to go with my gut here, it always led me correctly with horses in the past. I could often handle horses others couldn't--at least on the ground--same for all animals. Since I started working with Draumsyn I've tried to make some of our time together a time for her to do what she wants (on the ground). But not enough. I've taken her into the round pen and the arena--with just her halter on and let her go and followed her around, or she followed me around--and we just explored stuff. Need to do more of that and less "force", but not so much that she doesn't respect me either. Always a balancing act. 

Thanks for your input!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Animalia said:


> . I was taught to never let the horse decide to do anything on their own--always stay in control. And if they did "refuse" to do something to get on their case so that the easier path for them was just to DO the thing they were scared of or reluctant to do. I've also seen people say what you said about not putting so much pressure on so they don't hate life and you. So, if a horse is refusing to do something--whether from fear or stubbornness--what do you do? It can't be right to just let them get their way? ... Do you get off and lead them through !


To the last bit, yeah sometimes I do - but if your horse doesn't trust you, that might not help anyway. Got one horse here, came from a lovely client of mine - a very diligent & intelligent, but very nervous, inconfident woman... who sent him to umpteen different trainers because of 'his issues' of being scared of his own shadow, couldn't tie, couldn't go in a trailer without being forced, etc. Even one of the trainers that i know said hes a very nervous, jumpy thing who would never make a good kids horse... well it did take him a few weeks to settle in but he will follow anywhere with my daughter, has never put a foot wrong.

So... my own opinion about the rest you said above is, this is one area I think it helps to anthropomorphise! 

Firstly, while for safety &... practicality, of course I want a horse trained to do as I ask, but I personally want a horse to enjoy my company & 'games' as much as I do, not just be a slave, do it because they Must. So I do allow horses to make decisions too - but I think the difference is that I *allow* it often but I don't *let* the horse just do whatever, whenever.

Anthropomorphising, if you were continually just harassed, bullied, forced into doing something that was frightening that you believed was extremely dangerous - say walk through a tigers enclosure or stick your hand in a box of venomous snakes... would you feel ok with it? Would you feel ok with the one forcing you? Would you trust them, respect them for it? Would you feel ok with them at other times if they occasionally did that, or would you feel apprehensive about being with them at all? Would you think of them as a good, trustworthy leader?

Instead if someone acknowledged & respected your fear & feelings/opinions, and took time to introduce 'scary' things in such a manner that you could handle without feeling like you were actually in danger, you'd probably get to the point of following them to the depths of hell if they told you it was ok.

And then, there is a HUGE difference between trying to force someone who's scared, and forcing someone who just says 'I don't wanna!' You need to know the difference. Forcing the issue, or persevering until the horse gives in is, imo an absolutely a valid tactic. In the right situation.

But again, if you care whether the horse enjoys your requests too, you won't be in the business of just forcing anyway - that should be a minimal part of the equation. You will focus on getting them doing it for themselves & rewarding them for it.


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

Horsef said:


> I think you would benefit from slowing down a bit. I understand exactly how you feel, you want to get back to your previous level of riding and confidence pronto - else you feel like a failure. But it doesn’t really work like that. If you used to be a weightlifter in your youth and took it up after many years, I am quite sure you wouldn’t expect to get to the same level immediately, if ever.
> 
> You seem to be putting pressure on yourself to perform. Remember, you are not aiming for the Olympics. You will not starve if you don’t perform - this isn’t your job. You will not spoil the horse for ever and ever if you get off and lead her past something that she’s scared of. Even if you do make mistakes, you can correct them or the owner can if you cannot.
> 
> ...





Thanks for that! I need it!  I remembered what you said about Winter and it's been in the back of my mind. \We got WInter about 2 months early this year and I think it screwed up all of us living things--just messed with our heads and bodies. 



So, thank you to ALL for sticking with me here through this difficult time. Here's the stupid thing about all this--I am a an animal behaviorist and trainer (semi-professional)! I trained my own Guide Dog and I have worked with many dogs, cats and birds at improving undesirable behaviors and improving relationships with owners--as well as the side benefit of giving the animals a happier life. I used to work with tigers, lions, cougars and monkeys in zoo and sanctuary settings--hands on. I used to hug a tiger daily! 



And I've cared for so many horses--hundreds--but I am SO out of practice and old and out of shape physically and in pain from my arthritis and fibromyalgia---it all makes me tense. I'm working on it and improving--this is one of the benefits I wanted out of working with a horse again and riding. 



The other stupid thing is, I am a Shamanic Healer, am trained in Reiki, work with people's chakras and use crystals and herbs for healing--and I was a Veterinary Technician for 13 years--as well as having a degree in Wildlife Biology and Zoology. Physician heal thyself! My shamanic practice is helping me, but lately I've been such a stuck mess. And Horse is my power animal. I think that is making me feel like a failure when working with a REAL horse and it doesn't immediately go perfect. And yes, I always am impatient and want to be better--NOW, not later. LOL Patience! 

Thank you all again and I'll post my progress!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

& another story... after riding confidently my whole life, i had babies & a very green 3yo. Long story short, had a fall then totally lost confidence. Got to the point o couldnt even THINK of throwing a leg over without getting stressed. & of course my young, previously brave & calm boy of course 'fed' off my fear & got reactive. 

Can you understand how dumb & useless I felt, having ridden all my life, trained other people's 'difficult' horses, taught others to ride, now couldn't even ride my own?? So I kept telling myself I 'should' be able to do this, kept just forcing myself... which would make my horse edgy or downright reactive.... vicious circle.

Finally I came to the realisation that I wouldn't dream of treating a scared child or animal like I was treating myself... & by default treating my horse. I want back to the very basics - as in, didn't even consider throwing a leg over even, till we could both do it without stressing. Didn't even consider riding till I could again mount confidently & my horse was happy to have me there - started out just throwing a leg over then immediately sliding back off. Took a while but I eventually got back to (nearly) as... footloose & fancy free as I used to be. And that same horse is a brave go anywhere for me boy - even to the point we have ridden into a tunnel recently that was so dark he walked into the wall! Oops!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Animalia said:


> Here's the stupid thing about all this--I am a an animal behaviorist and trainer (semi-professional)! ... I used to work with tigers, lions, cougars and monkeys in zoo and sanctuary settings--hands on. I used to hug a tiger daily!


Ha! So am I - though I'm very jealous about your experience with big cats, of which I've had virtually none(only of a private zoo who had a (cuddly)black leopard & a lioness). And while I felt stupid for not being able to do what I 'should', I felt even more stupid when it finally dawned on me... just treat yourself & your horse as you know you'd treat a scared....(fill in the gap on species). 

We are all so susceptible, get so conditioned to do stuff just because it's 'the accepted way' & some 'guru' said so, or we have these preconceived ideas/pressures about what 'should' happen. I often am perplexed at the people who wouldn't dream of treating a dog or a child in some way that they treat their horse. But then I remember, it's 'traditional' to treat horses like that & it also took us a long time(& some still don't) to change our ways of treating dogs & children too.



> I am SO out of practice and old and out of shape physically and in pain from my arthritis and fibromyalgia---it all makes me tense.


I reckon horsef's(or whoever - sorry if wrong person) analogy about weightlifting is a great one to keep in mind.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> …. it finally dawned on me... just treat yourself & your horse as you know you'd treat a scared....(fill in the gap on species).
> 
> We are all so susceptible, get so conditioned to do stuff just because it's 'the accepted way' & some 'guru' said so, or we have these preconceived ideas/pressures about what 'should' happen. I often am perplexed at the people who wouldn't dream of treating a dog or a child in some way that they treat their horse. But then I remember, it's 'traditional' to treat horses like that & it also took us a long time(& some still don't) to change our ways of treating dogs & children too.


Agree. This advice is worth repeating. 

People have tried to tell me that I can't train a horse like a dog...yet my RMHA gelding easily learned the "touch" command.

I have had horses for nearly 50 yrs, and have watched training methods come and go. Since I have done nearly every sport with a horse (not polo, not roping and not reining) I have had a variety of instruction and methods of training. 

From these, and dog training, I have come up with my own system. It works for me, and my horses do well and appear quite happy. 

I have never lunged my RMHA gelding, yet the vet assistant had no trouble lunging him for an exam. 

When I returned from vacation last spring, he walked up behind me and stuck his nose in my hair, kind of messing it up, then just breathed deeply in and out of my hair. I took this to mean he had missed me, and was just enjoying having me stand there with him. 

Animals brains work like ours; if one would raise a child with love and understanding, why not treat one's horse or one's dog the same?

Treat them kindly and fairly, and they will return the favor and try to do anything we ask of them. 

I think most kids know this instinctively, which is why young people can out ride most adults.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^People go on these days about 'making' a horse respect you(aside from the fact I don't believe respect can be forced...). But it is so important IMO to be respectFUL to animals too - and in doing so, you will hopefully *earn* their trust & respect back.


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

All good advice for everyone. I always treat animals with respect. As a shamanic healer (I'm still learning and growing in this way of life) animals are my teachers, my guides, my helpers. I don't believe in forcing them--in most situations. Sometimes, with dogs especially, If you already have a trusting relationship and they are just being silly about something--like getting into a river, or going up or down stairs if they've never seen them--just pulling them "in" and rewarding and praising is all you need to do. When they finally get on the step, or in the water, and nothing happens, they realize it's ok and never have a problem again. But if they were utterly terrified and freaking out about something--I would'nt do the forcing, that would have to be coaxing and very slow. I have found horses to often be in the latter category, as prey animals. But yet, as a couple of you have said, people have a tendency to force horses and be demanding. The first thing I did with Draumsyn when I started riding was stop using the bit. She seemed to hate it. I rode with just a halter the first day I was on my own and she did SO much better and seemed so much happier. I do not want to cause pain or have to use pain and dominance to get them to do anything. 



I am also guilty of not treating myself the way I would a child or an animal, or any other human! Another issue I have been getting much better at in the last couple of years, but everything is a process isn't it? LOL I think the first mistake I made with this horse was not getting to know her before I rode her. In a lease situation you go out and "try" the horse. So after spending 10 minutes with her while the owner saddled her up, I got on and rode. Last May, when I rode some horses in TN, I spent the whole first day just getting to know them, leading them around, grooming them, etc. Didn't even try to get on until two days later. I am going to start over and go more slowly. 



Loosie--you are so right! And it's so nice to hear I'm not alone in feeling stupid about this stuff and not being perfect right away. I think my little Icelandic will be a wonderful riding companion--once we/I get on a better footing in our relationship and I relax. I think I don't trust her either--as a new horse to me, in the beginning, I didn't know what she could and couldn't do, so I was tentative and didn't trust her to just "be ok". So, now I am going to do all the groundwork I intended to do and not care so much about getting riding time in for awhile. And I'm looking for a place to take some lessons in the meantime. I wish I could get lessons on my Icelandic, but the barn doesn't have a riding instructor and I doubt I can afford to get someone to come to me. So building confidence on another horse might be a good thing anyway. And once I'm more confident about my English riding abilities and giving better cues, I will feel better on any horse. I rode a big, rangy Quarter horse a few times a couple months ago--Western, neck reining, etc And it just felt like home--I was so relaxed and happy. I need to get there with the English stuff. 



Thanks for all the talking, it really helps get my head and heart on straight! My husband is giving me "props" by telling me he knows I will synthesize my own training and trust building strategies with this horse--as he's seen me do it every other animal I've worked with--even if there was a lot of angst and feeling like I didn't know what I was doing at the beginning.  I think my first "starting over" goal is to just get her to relax that bottom lip and do some licking and chewing.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@Animalia that sounds like a great plan. Remember, there is no law that says you have to ride. If you feel like just spending some time with her and cleaning some tack - you can do it. If you feel like only riding for a few minutes, ditto. Just enjoy yourself, that’s why you are there. Riding, to me at least, is just incidental and non-obligatory. When I stopped putting expectations on myself, only then did I start truly advancing, even if I didn’t ride for a few months. Forcing it was completely counterproductive for me, I got myself into a hot mess and I was in a state of high anxiety. I get a feeling you are similar, especially at this stage of your life and riding.

Lessons will help greatly, but don’t push yourself there either. If the horse is consistently misbehaving or spooking - just get off and look for a more suitable horse. No use getting yourself scared or injured. 

Best of luck!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I was all set to hit the like button until I got to the last paragraph. 

Horses don't need to "lick and chew". That is more of that guru stuff that is not accurate. Horses "lick and chew" when they are stressed. 

Don't stress her out for no reason. 

If you need ground work to calm your nerves, that is one thing, but she is fine just as she is. 

Can you focus on getting to know her, instead of focusing on her getting to do tricks for you? 

Go take her for a walk and let her graze, then get on and ride. Rinse repeat.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AnitaAnne said:


> I was all set to hit the like button until I got to the last paragraph.
> 
> Horses don't need to "lick and chew". That is more of that guru stuff that is not accurate. Horses "lick and chew" when they are stressed.


Hmm, interesting that I haven't really thought about that one much myself. Given that I don't look for 'licking & chewing' myself, but given also that I know full well that yawning & licking can indicate stress - or perhaps more accurately it seems to be a stress release or 'calming signal' in dogs, and I have noticed that horses tend to yawn quite a bit when they're chronically stressed... I'm surprised at myself that I haven't given more thought to the 'lick & chew' brigade with horses. Perhaps we could more accurately say that in horses, licking & chewing is an indication they're coming out of a stressful situation - I think they tend to do it most after a 'confrontation' is over - whether an 'argument' with a fellow horse, or a 'big' lession with their human.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> Hmm, interesting that I haven't really thought about that one much myself. Given that I don't look for 'licking & chewing' myself, but given also that I know full well that yawning & licking can indicate stress - or perhaps more accurately it seems to be a stress release or 'calming signal' in dogs, and I have noticed that horses tend to yawn quite a bit when they're chronically stressed... I'm surprised at myself that I haven't given more thought to the 'lick & chew' brigade with horses. Perhaps we could more accurately say that in horses, licking & chewing is an indication they're coming out of a stressful situation - I think they tend to do it most after a 'confrontation' is over - whether an 'argument' with a fellow horse, or a 'big' lession with their human.


Lets look at cats, domestic cats as I have no knowledge of big cats...

Irritate a cat by petting too long, restraining, or even playing too rough and what does the cat do??? 

Walks or lopes off a bit, stops and glares, and then with differing degrees of force, licks a body part. IME usually the left shoulder, but not always. 

So what does one interpret from that? Is the licking a release? Or if so, a release of what? Tension? Is the hair standing on end and the cat is licking it down in the "trigger spot"? 

Or is it anger, and the cat form of cursing out the human? 

I think with horses, from humans they are asking for release, to please stop. Can you imagine being forced to turn back and forth, over and over, faster and faster? For no reason? This is what those gurus do to the horse; not lunging, no it is "move the feet" always keep those feet moving! 

Sort of like those old timey movies with the cowboy shooting at a person's feet to make them dance...does shooting at feet build a close bond? Develop respect and trust?

How about sharing a meal and just hanging out together, going places together; doesn't that build a better bond? A bit more fun too. 

My horses all love going places, and if they are disappointed when the destination turns out to be the vet, they are way too polite to say so :smile:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Speaking again of cats, I recently visited a cousin who has three cats. I had not met these cats before, and it has been over ten years since I was at this house. 

The cats, including the "shy one" immediately approached me. The cousin was surprised by this behavior, and repeated several times throughout the evening how surprised they were that the cats all approached me, a stranger. 

One cat even tapped me on the shoulder as I was petting the "shy one". 

So why did the cats act this way? I'm not sure either, but my best guess is that we communicated by our eyes, and they all realized that I was safe to approach.


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

Ok, forget it, I have no plans or goals. I have always been told (and noticed myself) that "licking and chewing" and relaxing the bottom lip meant the horse was finally relaxed and calm. I'm not talking about the nervous kind, or stress yawning and cats are very different from horses. Dee always has a tense lip and tight mouth--even while I'm grooming her. I am not going to chase her around and around a pen until this happens. I had intended to just "be" with her and hopefully see these things happen naturally. I am not a total moron or cruel person who will try to increase stress in any horse to make them "perform".


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Animalia said:


> Ok, forget it, I have no plans or goals. I have always been told (and noticed myself) that "licking and chewing" and relaxing the bottom lip meant the horse was finally relaxed and calm. I'm not talking about the nervous kind, or stress yawning and cats are very different from horses. Dee always has a tense lip and tight mouth--even while I'm grooming her. I am not going to chase her around and around a pen until this happens. I had intended to just "be" with her and hopefully see these things happen naturally. I am not a total moron or cruel person who will try to increase stress in any horse to make them "perform".


I'm sorry if my posts offended you that was not the intent! 

With all your stated animal knowledge, I would advise you to question what these gurus teach. Use your knowledge of animals and training to develop your own relationship with the horse. 

IMO, the mare is clamping her lip because she is tense and uncertain of what will happen. To relax her, maybe try a little stroking and a massaging grooming session. 

Or take a walk and eat a little grass on the other side of the fence...just like the saying the grass is always greener...

Just relax and enjoy her. Of course it is ok to have goals and plans, everyone needs those or they are aimless...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

PS, IMO the licking and chewing is a learned behavior the horse discovers will make the human stop. 

So this sort of pattern happens:
1) Guru moves horses feet by changing direction quickly

2) Horse turns as asked. 

3) Horse realizes after several back and forth turns that the human is "practicing turns" and horse relaxes because he knows what to do to make it stop.

4) Horse signals he understands by the licking behavior, which he has learned stops the action of the human.

5) human stops the back and forth commands

6) horse relaxes then starts to become tense again wondering whats next

7) human sees horse shifting and begins to move feet again
(repeat)

Again, this is just my observations. Have witnessed some less-forgiving type horses become angry at the constant changes, and become aggressive. They never lick and chew like the more forgiving types.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Animalia... I don't think anyone here thinks badly of you at all. Really! I think much of the advice has been really helpful. 

I have been heartened by most of it. I think just spending time with a horse is a great plan. I also think taking a horse out for a walk is beneficial to both horse and human. Often when I ride out I get off and walk back...especially in the summer when the blackberries are ripe and we can graze our way home.

My mare is a 21 year old Paint. She was a broodmare before I got her when she was 14. So I have had her quite a while. We have had some trust issues and I was really puzzled by it. A close friend suggested that since most of her early life was spent as a broodmare she didn't develop the sense of trust with a rider. I can see this as being a possibility. She can be really spooked by an object when I'm on her back but if I get off and walk her up to it she is just as willing as all get-out. I get back on and it's back to fear again. I have had horses for most of my life and she's a first. I expect we may be working on this issue for the next decade or so. She's not a flighty or nervous horse. In fact she is probably one of the least excitable horses I have owned. Just this one quirk.

So Animalia, I guess you and the horse you ride just have to work at your own speed. But since you don't own the horse don't eliminate the option of another horse for you if you simply aren't gaining ground. By the way, I'm pretty impressed by the daily hugging a tiger business!


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Animalia said:


> Ok, forget it, I have no plans or goals. I have always been told (and noticed myself) that "licking and chewing" and relaxing the bottom lip meant the horse was finally relaxed and calm. I'm not talking about the nervous kind, or stress yawning and cats are very different from horses. Dee always has a tense lip and tight mouth--even while I'm grooming her. I am not going to chase her around and around a pen until this happens. I had intended to just "be" with her and hopefully see these things happen naturally. I am not a total moron or cruel person who will try to increase stress in any horse to make them "perform". I'm sorry some of you have such a poor opinion of me or are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Crying again. And I was having a good morning before I read this.


No on here thinks poorly of you. I've been reading and following this since you started this thread. 

You obviously care very much for your leased horse. You are doing great it takes time. You've gotten great advice. Don't take offense to things posted, everyone has there opinion and it's just that. 

You're doing a great job,no one is perfect. As long as you keep improving that's all that matters. :hug:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Animalia said:


> I am not a total moron or cruel person who will try to increase stress in any horse to make them "perform". I'm sorry some of you have such a poor opinion of me or are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Crying again. And I was having a good morning before I read this.


Wow! I am sorry you feel that way about our words. For my part - & assuming AA's too - that was far from our intention & there was no personal stab at you in the least. 

I just re-read to check anyone didn't inadvertently say something bad & I just can't see what we said that could have implied anything of the sort. I think you're simply assuming meaning & intent that's not there. But by all means if there's a specific something you feel was offensive, let us know. It is easy to misunderstand echother when we only have written words to go on.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If you think about foals, licking and chewing are a sign of submission.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

As well as clacking.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

@Animalia, ok if it makes you feel better I've done some pretty dumb things,to my horse. 

I've posted about several of them,I'm not well liked by some posters. I've not always been thoughtful of my horses well being,like riding him when he's not completely sound. 

I have taken offense to post on my own threads. But after really giving it a lot of thought I realized, I need to do better for my horse. 

You obviously really love your leased horse, it shows in every single post. I can't say that for my post about my own horse.:frown_color::frown_color:. 

I have really enjoyed reading about your adventures working with your horse. So keep posting everyone here wants to help. 

If in doubt about something posted ask, to get it clarified on what was meant.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> If you think about foals, licking and chewing are a sign of submission.


True



QtrBel said:


> As well as clacking.


True again...or is it "baby talk"?

*but we don't ride foals, and even foals don't continue the behavior every interaction*


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> Wow! I am sorry you feel that way about our words. For my part - & assuming AA's too - that was far from our intention & there was no personal stab at you in the least.
> 
> I just re-read to check anyone didn't inadvertently say something bad & I just can't see what we said that could have implied anything of the sort. I think you're simply assuming meaning & intent that's not there. But by all means if there's a specific something you feel was offensive, let us know. It is easy to misunderstand echother when we only have written words to go on.


Agree, no personal stab or intent to cause pain. 

My intent was to encourage questions r/t "accepted" training methods/theories and invite readers to observe their horses (and other) animals behavior. 

When I first began riding (have mentioned this in other threads) the "accepted method" of saddle breaking a horse was to tie them to a post, sack them out, saddle and bridle them, then "throw" the horse to the ground by a system of ropes tied at strategic points. After that, they were "broke" and ready to ride. The "trainer" would stand over the horse and mount as the horse was eased up. Sometimes the breaking process got quite energetic. 

I didn't accept that method, and I don't buy into much of the new stuff either. 

A man may learn to dance because someone shoots as his feet, but that doesn't make them a good dancer, or a pleasure to watch.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Just one more thing that came to mind with your last post OP... well, a couple... I know I ramble...

I think most of us who have been on an international(or not) forum for any time come to appreciate how little we can rationally 'know' someone, or a situation. Esp with different ways people express themselves, (not to mention language barriers) & can be taken. So we do try not to assume much. 

So I think it's important to read and reply as 'charitably' as possible - meaning if there is any question of how to take something, we should assume the best, not the worst. Or at least question, not just 'jump'. 



Animalia said:


> Dee always has a tense lip and tight mouth--even while I'm grooming her. I am not going to chase her around and around a pen until this happens. I had intended to just "be" with her and hopefully see these things happen naturally. I am not a total moron or cruel person who will try to increase stress in any horse to make them "perform".


We get all sorts of different opinions & practices here, and there are many far from 'morons' who do believe/do that sort of thing. So, I for one was not assuming *you* did that - though what you have said did make me question - or for that matter do I think everyone who believes this is a moron either. I think it's due a lot to people listen to 'experts' & take their word for it without understanding so much.

And it's great that you are intuitive & observant enough to have taken notice of 'signs' such as your horses tense lips - so many people just dont see or give any thought to 'the little things' like this (& I think all of us are guilty of inattention sometimes) and only start to take notice when problems are big & obvious. Which rarely happens 'out of the blue' without 'warning signs', if only people had 'listened' to them.



> My intent was to encourage questions r/t "accepted" training methods/theories and invite readers to observe their horses (and other) animals behavior.


Yes! Our society conditions us to just accept & trust 'experts' blindly. Even scientists are prone to just accepting other 'experts' without question - look at perpetuated errors stated in textbooks etc, because the first one was a mistake but became 'gospel' to subsequent 'researchers'... I believe critical thinking is so important & should be a compulsory subject in schools. But of course, the powers that be wouldnt like that... 

'It is not the unanswered questions but the unquestioned answers that can be the most dangerous'


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

I just felt like everything I said was getting overlooked or pounced on for being wrong. I said my horse had a tense mouth, even when I was grooming her--AA said my mare is tense and uncertain of what will happen--try stroking and grooming her. Ok, I've been with this horse for 2 months, it hurt my feelings for someone to think I've never stroked her, massaged her, groomed her, talked kindly and soothingly to her. I've given her Reiki, I've sung lullabye's to her, I've taken her out for grazing on a lead rope. I said I was going to do more leading and walking her around everywhere, spending time with her, being quiet and calm and exploring as well. Yet everyone got hung up on my "licking and chewing" reference and it felt like took me to task and complained about people who try to get their horses to lick and chew--and how cruel they were being--when I had just said I was going to look for that. That seemed to me like people were telling me I was going to be, or maybe already was, being cruel and doing things wrong and stupidly. I just needed some encouragement, and some of you gave me that, and thank you. I hope you know how much some of your advice and experiences you shared truly, truly helped me and I am extremely grateful. I am also extremely fragile right now and feeling like a huge failure. I used to BE somebody. Animals have always responded to me--I have been called the female Dr. Doolittle by many friends and family and employers. To have these issues now and have to admit that this horse doesn't like me and doesn't trust me and would rather not be around me is extraordinarily difficult. Especially when I've been so beaten down by life in the last 15 years. (or my whole life). I'm sorry if I offended any of you, made people feel bad etc. I hate being like I am right now.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Animalia said:


> I just felt like everything I said was getting overlooked or pounced on for being wrong. I said my horse had a tense mouth, even when I was grooming her--AA said my mare is tense and uncertain of what will happen--try stroking and grooming her. Ok, I've been with this horse for 2 months, it hurt my feelings for someone to think I've never stroked her, massaged her, groomed her, talked kindly and soothingly to her. I've given her Reiki, I've sung lullabye's to her, I've taken her out for grazing on a lead rope. I said I was going to do more leading and walking her around everywhere, spending time with her, being quiet and calm and exploring as well. Yet everyone got hung up on my "licking and chewing" reference and it felt like took me to task and complained about people who try to get their horses to lick and chew--and how cruel they were being--when I had just said I was going to look for that. That seemed to me like people were telling me I was going to be, or maybe already was, being cruel and doing things wrong and stupidly. I just needed some encouragement, and some of you gave me that, and thank you. I hope you know how much some of your advice and experiences you shared truly, truly helped me and I am extremely grateful. I am also extremely fragile right now and feeling like a huge failure. I used to BE somebody. Animals have always responded to me--I have been called the female Dr. Doolittle by many friends and family and employers. To have these issues now and have to admit that this horse doesn't like me and doesn't trust me and would rather not be around me is extraordinarily difficult. Especially when I've been so beaten down by life in the last 15 years. (or my whole life). I'm sorry if I offended any of you, made people feel bad etc. I hate being like I am right now.


You're far from being a failure I see someone with great try and asking for guidance. That isn't a failure. 

It can be hard to admit when things are going bad it just is. But you keep trying and that says a lot. 

I'm going through a tough time, so know all to well about feeling like a failure.

Give your lease horse time just hang out with her. Take her out to graze ,brush her give her some treats. Find her itchy spots she'll learn you give good scratches. That will help her to like you then build on that. 

You can PM me if you like,I'm more then willing to listen.


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

rambo99 said:


> You're far from being a failure I see someone with great try and asking for guidance. That isn't a failure.
> 
> It can be hard to admit when things are going bad it just is. But you keep trying and that says a lot.
> 
> ...



Thank you for that! I just may do that (PM you at times). I am in a nightmare of late stage perimenopause right now and that added to all my other health problems and emotional issues is making me feel like I've been taken over by aliens--nasty ones. LOL


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

Ok, thank you all for your kind words. I am sorry I am overly sensitive right now. I always want to think the best of people and I will remember that people on here are just trying to be helpful and I will try to respond in kind. 

Thanks again. And yes, I am really falling for my Icelandic. When she is being sweet--she is so endearing. And I so badly want us to have a good partnership. I'm just going to take some of the pressure off of us both and be happy to be around horses at all! 



I am feeling a little better about stuff and about this forum. Thanks


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah, everyone puts their own 'spin' on what they read/hear from others, based on their own experiences, mentality, etc. We all do that. No one here actually said that you never stroked your horse, or that you - or anyone for that matter, was cruel for 'looking for licking & chewing'. I tried to explain that last bit already, but pardon if it wasn't clear. We were simply discussing our observations of what it really could mean, is perceived by the horse, is all.



> feeling like a huge failure... Animals have always responded to me... To have these issues now and have to admit that this horse doesn't like me and doesn't trust me and would rather not be around me is extraordinarily difficult.


Hey, to that bit, I know exactly, from painful personal experience, how you feel there, which is why I told you about my young boy - now my 'old faithful'. And part of what made it 'extraordinarily difficult' for me was that I though I _was_ extraordinary in that regard. That I was 'useless' & others of my previous 'level' didn't have these issues(didn't help that I had no horsey friends around because I moved when I was pregnant). But in telling others of my 'uselessness'(first on this forum, then I could admit it to people in person) I discovered many, many of us go through this sort of thing, especially as we get older, find we don't bounce as easily... So, I would now say, I understand totally how it's difficult for you to admit your relationship with this horse, but that it is actually quite _ordinarily _difficult! ;-)

The other thing about your relationship with this particular horse, you've only had her 2 months, part time & it's not necessarily even your problem to fully 'own'. As good as she may have been in the past, doesn't mean to say she hasn't also met you with her own 'baggage'. I have a very good little horse here, got him a year & a half ago, a nervous, confused boy, but he was always very 'obedient' & calm with us(in a wooden, tight lipped sort of way), he has been quite 'shut down' about people, hasn't been able to relax fully or really enjoy anything we've done with him, be it grooming or otherwise, despite trying very hard to make everything 'good' for him. It's taken until the recent couple of months for him to really come out of his shell for my eldest(they spend the most time with him by far) & started actually enjoying being touched, playing games, etc.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I definitely don’t think you are a failure at all. If anything, just going out there and trying to do what you are doing shows great strength of character and is rather inspirational, to me at least. Most people in your situation just give in and use their health challenges as a catch-all. (Not that there is anything wrong with that either - lazing around, watching TV and eating bonbons is great).

I wouldn’t dream of doing what you are doing and I am generally in good health - but not very brave. New horse, middle of winter, on my own - no ways. My instructor would have to hold my hand every step of the way. I still have my instructor with me the first few times I ride my mare indoors in the autumn - and I am not ashamed to admit it despite the ribbing I get from the barn rats. 

Please note that I used the phrase “trying to”. Success in this situation is just going out there. Nobody will think any less of you for reassessing (as you did) and finding a different approach. If anything, you showed wisdom in coming here and asking for and accepting advice.

As far as your mare being tense when you groom her - some of them just don’t like it and never will. I wouldn’t take it personally at all. Some of them don’t like being loved on, or don’t feel like it all the time. This isn’t a reflection on the handler, it’s just their own personality. Some of them won’t like you no matter what you do. That’s ok, you don’t have to like all the horses either.


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

rambo99 said:


> @*Animalia* , ok if it makes you feel better I've done some pretty dumb things,to my horse.
> 
> I've posted about several of them,I'm not well liked by some posters. I've not always been thoughtful of my horses well being,like riding him when he's not completely sound.
> 
> ...



Just wanted to sincerely thank you for sharing this. It's not easy to admit this stuff, most of all to ourselves, but also in public. Sounds like you've done some healing and growing and I really admire that! I think we are all guilty of sometimes not doing things in our horses' best interests. When I was younger--teens and 20's and maybe even early 30's--I was a much more callous horseperson. If the horse was limping, I would ride, but not canter. But I might go out for over an hour trail ride! I would never do that today. I'm a lot softer and more understanding now. I'm not proud of some stuff I've done either. But the important thing, I think, is that we learn and get better.  Thanks for the support!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Mod Note*

Could we maybe get this thread back to the OP's question about Obstacle and Trail Courses please.

Its got rather sidetracked!

Maybe someone would like to start a thread about licking and chewing or any of the other things mentioned so they can get some discussion of their own?


Thank you

Jaydee


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

Thanks for the props, both of you! And Horsef, I don't find having your riding instructor there sometimes to be silly at all! My husband has actually offered to "hand hold" me the next couple of rides--maybe even walking alongside me if I need it, or leading the horse, until we are both more relaxed and less fearful of each other. LOL He's NOT a horse person, but he's very kind and sensitive and animals and people adore him, so he's good at this stuff.  I'm not going to be embarrassed about this--it's worth it to me to build good feelings in the saddle again. And part of the reason I love riding so much now is that is really helps my pain and loosens up the stiff muscles and joints, particularly my hips. I don't need to be controlling the horse myself to get the benefit--as long as I'm in the saddle. So, pony rides here I come. LOL Thanks again!


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Animalia said:


> Thanks for the props, both of you! And Horsef, I don't find having your riding instructor there sometimes to be silly at all! My husband has actually offered to "hand hold" me the next couple of rides--maybe even walking alongside me if I need it, or leading the horse, until we are both more relaxed and less fearful of each other. LOL He's NOT a horse person, but he's very kind and sensitive and animals and people adore him, so he's good at this stuff.  I'm not going to be embarrassed about this--it's worth it to me to build good feelings in the saddle again. And part of the reason I love riding so much now is that is really helps my pain and loosens up the stiff muscles and joints, particularly my hips. I don't need to be controlling the horse myself to get the benefit--as long as I'm in the saddle. So, pony rides here I come. LOL Thanks again!


Could also make a little trail course and have husband lead you through on horse. Could also do some in hand trail course with your mare. 

Great idea on having husband help you, nothing wrong having him lead horse. Then you can relax and get you confidence back. Keep us posted on how it goes!


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Animalia said:


> My husband has actually offered to "hand hold" me the next couple of rides--maybe even walking alongside me if I need it, or leading the horse, until we are both more relaxed and less fearful of each other. LOL He's NOT a horse person, but he's very kind and sensitive and animals and people adore him, so he's good at this stuff.


This picture is the very first time I rode my horse after moving her home from a boarding barn in July 2018- I had ridden her a hundred solo trail miles before bringing her home, and yet I was still gripped with fear riding her that first lap around the pasture at home. My lovely husband is exactly the same way you described your husband and he walked alongside us for that first ride.









Fear is a weird thing. I've ridden several hundred miles with this horse since I've brought her home, and while I've had dips in confidence and challenges- even plenty of moments wondering if she was the right horse- we've just finished a fabulous riding season and I'm so glad I kept going with her, even in the tough moments.

A clinic we did last spring, which included a lot of "confidence building" obstacles, was definitely a key turning point for us, primarily because it built _my _confidence in my ability to work with my horse. These are some of the obstacles in the clinic:




(Just to clarify, we are not in this video- this is the clinician working with a young horse she had for a Mustang Makeover competition. But she uses these obstacles when she's teaching too)

We practiced them all in hand first, and then rotated through them under saddle too. The in-hand time was key though.

Edited: Found a couple of pictures of us doing obstacles at the clinic. Here's the streamers:









And one of the pedestals:


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

egrogan said:


> This picture is the very first time I rode my horse after moving her home from a boarding barn in July 2018- I had ridden her a hundred solo trail miles before bringing her home, and yet I was still gripped with fear riding her that first lap around the pasture at home. My lovely husband is exactly the same way you described your husband and he walked alongside us for that first ride.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cool! Was last Spring the first time you did obstacles with her? How long did it take for her to get used to streamers and things being dragged behind her? My horse seems to not mind walking on and over stuff, but waving things around at her or making scary noises (like velcro jacket pockets, noisy nylon jackets, etc) are somehow terrifying to her. LOL How long had you had and worked with/ridden your horse before you started obstacles? My horse's owner says that she is very brave--once she trusts her rider. Then she will go anywhere, even if it's something she hasn't seen before. I guess a lot of horses are like that. Are you planning to try any competitions?


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## Animalia (Nov 10, 2019)

I'm going to go start a journal about my horse tails to chart my progress. I am hoping to look back on these early posts a year from now and laugh at myself and marvel at how well things have actually gone. LOL


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I'll preface all of this by saying I'm not a horse trainer- just fortunate to have a fairly forgiving horse to work with while I improve my own riding (I'm an adult "re-rider" that got back into horses in my early 30s, dabbling in some basic dressage lessons and a lot of trail riding).



Animalia said:


> Cool! Was last Spring the first time you did obstacles with her?


We had done some work with poles in the course of dressage lessons, but nothing with pedestals, objects, etc.



> How long did it take for her to get used to streamers and things being dragged behind her?


She had never seen any of those things before the clinic weekend. I think this was day 2 or 3 of the clinic. I think it's important to note though, what they stressed in the clinic (and I've heard from a lot of people here over the years too), is that it's not really about the "thing" you're asking the horse to do- the "thing" is just a way to check-in on how well the horse is listening and working with you. If you have a horse that willingly goes forward or sideways when you ask, the "thing" you add to the scenario shouldn't really matter much. Not to say they won't be curious or worried or startled the first time you try something like that, but if they have already demonstrated that they're working with you through more basic leading or ridden activities, then adding in the thing goes pretty smoothly. With the streamers for example, I think I walked it through her once from the ground while we were waiting our turn for another activity, and since she was forward-thinking and leading well she didn't even look at it. When we started riding through it, the instructor recommended taking it in steps- first time we went through, all the streamers were pulled fully back and we just walked through the opening; next circle, they let out the layer of streamers farthest from the middle; next circle, let out the next layer; last circle, we rode through the full curtain. She didn't hesitate at all even though she had never done something like that before. 



> My horse seems to not mind walking on and over stuff, but waving things around at her or making scary noises (like velcro jacket pockets, noisy nylon jackets, etc) are somehow terrifying to her. LOL


I think that just means breaking things down into small steps and rewarding what you want (if you want to use the positive reinforcement/treat approach- I know not everyone works with their horse that way, I personally am a fan of food rewards but that doesn't work for everyone or every horse). My horse is terrified of cows- she can see them from 1/2 mile away and plant her feet and not want to move. So, we've been working on that in baby steps from the ground. It's slow going, and someone else probably would have gotten her over it by now, but we've been improving all summer to the point that we can now ride past them on the opposite side of the road. At the beginning of teh summer I couldn't get her to approach them at all. I truly believe she was scared, so we focused on doing things that got her mentally "unstuck" and helped us make progress.



> How long had you had and worked with/ridden your horse before you started obstacles? My horse's owner says that she is very brave--once she trusts her rider. Then she will go anywhere, even if it's something she hasn't seen before. I guess a lot of horses are like that.


I got her in Nov 2017. She was boarded until July 2018, and then she came home. This clinic was in March 2019 (I think? Maybe April?) Between Nov 2018 and the clinic, I barely rode her because we don't have an indoor, and winters in Vermont are challenging for riding outside. I was at a real low point last spring trying to get her going again, since my only options at the time were riding solo on the dirt roads around our house. She was very barn sour and very on-edge when I was trying to get back into riding in the spring. I didn't feel equipped to deal with that and nothing I was trying seemed to be working. The clinic helped a lot because it re-upped my confidence that I did in fact know how to handle this horse, and helped me think about what was in it for her- what could I do with her that would make her _want _to work with me as a real team? Getting some basic, simple strategies for defusing nervous behavior went a long way for me. 



> Are you planning to try any competitions?


Unfortunately I don't have a trailer right now, so I'm a bit limited by going to competitions that are within riding distance (there is a great equestrian venue ~10 miles down the road, and we've done some distance riding there this summer), or where I can catch a ride. We also had a pretty serious trailer loading problem last summer into the spring, so I was pretty hesitant to catch a ride and then cause a scene with a horse that wouldn't load to come home. What I learned here, as well as from a trainer we worked with, is that a loading problem is related to the same leading issues and willingness to work together that I was describing above. By the end of the summer, I got her loading really well (as long as I wasn't nervous about it- that definitely made her refuse ). She is still nervous during the trailer ride, but we're working on it so we can go to more activities next year.


Sorry this turned into a novel; your questions really got me thinking about the past year with my horse. Thanks for that! I will look for your journal to follow along.


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