# The perfect horse.



## SunnyDraco

My closest idea to perfection is a horse built for excelling in many disciplines, movement and long term soundness. Easy on the eyes and proportionate. 

As an example, a two year old filly:









She is going to be amazing when she finishes growing 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trailhorserider

Beauty is so much in the eye of the beholder. I have seen some gorgeous TB's that look just about perfect......for a Thoroughbred. But I personally, as a riding horse, like something with heavier bone. Something with good, sturdy feet. Something that can do rugged mountain riding and still be sound at 20+ years.

So I guess what I'm saying is, it depends on what you are using the horse for. What looks like the best conformation for a race horse wouldn't be my personal ideal as a riding horse. And what I like in a riding horse, would never make it in an event that called for speed.

I like something that is functional and sound over the long haul. Even a lot of QH's look light boned to me. Sigh. How I love a sturdy horse and they are far and few between here in Arizona.

My ideal horse would be something like an Irish Draught. Here is a random Irish Draught I found on Google. 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Bridon_Belfrey,_RID,_Irish_Draught_Stallion.jpg

While this horse may not be absolutely perfect in every respect, he is a good representation of what I would consider my ideal "type" for what I wish to find in a riding horse. Yup, not many like him here in Arizona. I don't understand why we don't breed more horses like this. I don't know if people are obsessed with speed events or cow horses or ??? Maybe people just don't have a concept of form following function, but you just don't find many sturdy horses in my area. Even the big burly QH's have tiny feet. I can imagine that horses like this are expensive, no doubt, but I would think you could develop some quality horses using draft crosses. So why don't we breed horses like this in the USA?

I used to have a BLM Mustang that was 14.3 and stout. He looked like he had a touch of Belgian or Haflinger in him. He was sound, sound, sound and had really great bone and size 2 feet. Unfortunately he passed away. But honestly, why should a Mustang be built to last longer than our supposedly well bred purebreds? People just don't breed bone and hoof into horses around here. :evil:


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## Elana

This horse, IMO, comes close. thoroughbred Racing Champion Lonrho, in Australia. 

Nice short back. Good withers that flow nicely into the back. Well formed croup. Correct coupling. Correct placement of the LS. Correct hind leg. Good bone. Wide throatlatch. Shoulder is a bit steep and I would like his point of shoulder to be higher. An aside he is a true black horse. True blacks do not fade in the sun and are pretty rare.


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## SunnyDraco

Elana said:


> True blacks do not fade in the sun and are pretty rare.


I have heard of the non fading blacks being called blue blacks. Fading blacks are still black, they aren't a false black to make the non fading ones to be true blacks. I guess that is why I have a problem with the term "true black" referring to non fading blacks because it implies that fading blacks aren't truly black even though genetically they are black.


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## Elana

Perhaps the more correct terrm when referring to "true Black" would be melanistic black. A black that fades or a black that has white markings was always considered genetically to be a form of brown....


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## SunnyDraco

Elana said:


> Perhaps the more correct terrm when referring to "true Black" would be melanistic black. A black that fades or a black that has white markings was always considered genetically to be a form of brown....


My mom has a non fading black with 4 socks and a stripe, genetically tested to be EE aa so brown isn't genetically an option without Agouti even though he has white markings. She also has a fading black with a stripe and a couple coronets and a partial coronet who is genetically tested Ee aa and so is also not genetically brown as there isn't any kind of agouti.


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## Foxhunter

The perfect horse depends on what sort of class it is being shown in.

To compare an Arab with a Shire, Lead Rein pony with a Hack, Fell Pony with a Hunter - all need to be perfect to the class standard.

There is an old saying about a Shire, you should get a bowler hat between its front legs and a postcard between its hocks. Any heavy draught horse should be very close at the hocks but this would be detrimental in a ridden class. 

Ridden horses in show classes should all move straight and freely with no knee action but you want the knee action in some breeds.

No matter how 'perfect' a horse is for its breed/class standard it is no good without the right temperament!


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## horseluvr2524

What Jaydee said.

For me, I love the baroques of Spanish origin, Andalusians, Lusitanos, etc. Always wanted one but I figure without giving an arm and a leg for one, the only way I could get something similar is to adopt a mustang who's conformation is reminiscent of Spanish blood, like this guy. I can't believe only one person bid on him! It shows that they are not bidding for conformation..


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## stevenson

Elana... a while back , there was discussions on black horses, and I stated a black horse does not fade, if it fades its a brown, and did I get a can of worms on that. ! 
My 2 black with white horses dont fade. I have a belg x draft mare that I call bay and people told me she was not bay but brown as she had goldish fade on her mouth and flank, then other post say wild bay for horses with fading as hers.. 
My horses are black, have draft in them and appy , as well as my brown/bay draft with morgan and appy.


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## JCnGrace

While he was far from being a perfect horse he was my perfect horse.


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## hyperkalemic4

Loved the black. I like a short back and a long deep hip


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## silverxslinky

For me it has to be *****. I would love for someone to point out to me the weak spots on this horse because for the life of me I can't see any.


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## anndankev

Just my opinion, I'd rather see the reins/lead in pictures than have them be photo shopped out. 

I'm not good at spotting photoshopping but that is a given. Causes me to wonder if any thing else was photoshopped.


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## silverxslinky

anndankev said:


> Just my opinion, I'd rather see the reins/lead in pictures than have them be photo shopped out.
> 
> I'm not good at spotting photoshopping but that is a given. Causes me to wonder if any thing else was photoshopped.


I'd never thought about that before, what do you think they would photoshop? The horse is definitely set up to his best advantage here, standing on a slope, but he does not appear to me to have been photoshopped, at least not beyond some expected touchup. He looks very much like this on video as well. But then again I am also not very good at spotting photoshop.


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## CandyCanes

silverxslinky said:


> For me it has to be *****. I would love for someone to point out to me the weak spots on this horse because for the life of me I can't see any.


***** is a gorgeous horse, no one can deny. I am a great fan of him. 

There are some minor things. 
His feet are not great.... The heels are underrun and he is high heeled. As a result, the pasterns are a little upright, and for dressage his pasterns could also be longer. 
His croup is a little flat, which would cause him to lack some suppleness through the back. Horses with flat croups (though his isn't really that bad at all) tend to be more leg movers than back movers. You want a back mover. His front end is slightly 'bigger' than his hind end. His butt could be a bit bigger to even up his proportions. 

Despite these minor faults, he is still an excellent breeding stallion, and one I plan to have a foal from in the future.


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## anndankev

> what do you think they would photoshop?


Don't know, I'm good at neither confirmation critique nor photoshop. 

Only know on the beauty is in the eye of the beholder basis.
He is beautiful.


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## Zexious

Man, that horse is gorgeous ;-; <3<3


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## silverxslinky

CandyCanes said:


> His feet are not great.... The heels are underrun and he is high heeled. As a result, the pasterns are a little upright, and for dressage his pasterns could also be longer.


This is the one thing that I did notice, however, if you look at the hilltop stallion lineup it seems that a lot of the stallions standing there have feet that look similar. It makes me wonder if it's due in part to farrier work, and if perhaps there is a reason that they trim them this way. 



CandyCanes said:


> His croup is a little flat, which would cause him to lack some suppleness through the back.


You mentioned that you would consider breeding to ***** at some point in the future, do you think that he might be a good match for a mare with a croup that is steeper than ideal? 

My mare, for example is a bit shorter and steeper in the croup than I would like, and also has pasterns that are longer than I would prefer. 

Here I realize that we're getting in to more breeding than conformation, but I am curious as to the opinions that you and others may have on this subject.


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## Tryst

Generally you would want to breed very correct to an area your mare is weaker... ie breed to a stallion with a correct croup and pasterns. Rarely do you get 'intermediate' between the two parents, but more often like one or the other faults (or both in some cases)... Now I'm not saying he is a bad choice for your mare... Obviously he is an awesome looking horse and I consider the faults he has as quite minor. Just as a general rule look for VERY correct in the areas your mare is weak rather than the polar opposite trait. Always useful also to look at what traits a various stallion seems prepotent for in their offspring.

And as an aside... Ugg... HATE the high heels they have on him!


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## CandyCanes

What needs to be thought of is this- in Europe, we love our high heels on horses. The bigger the better. The concept of good feet having low heels has not yet entered the schools of thought in Europe. 

I would think the farrier is amazing for what he has LEARNT. ***** would only get the very best farriery. But this is the reason I rasp Diddlys feet myself. To not go with the flow, but go faster and find out whats going on in America first, and act to improve the feet. 

In terms of the croup it is best to breed to a mare with a very correct croup rather than one which is steeply angled. You have more chance of getting the correct croup that way rather than a chance of getting a steep or a flat croup if you bred him to a steep crouped mare... If that made any sense. I would also do the same with the pasterns. Get a mare with correct pasterns, instead of one with long pasterns to counteract his short ones.


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## silverxslinky

Candy and Tryst, thanks for the feedback! I had a feeling that was the way it worked but have no knowledge on breeding whatsoever. If I ever were to breed this mare it would be a few years down the road and with professional guidance. 

In keeping with the original intent of this post, to demonstrate an example of "the perfect horse," does anyone know of a horse who is as well put together as ***** with the addition of a particularly good hind end?


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## CandyCanes

silverxslinky said:


> Candy and Tryst, thanks for the feedback! I had a feeling that was the way it worked but have no knowledge on breeding whatsoever. If I ever were to breed this mare it would be a few years down the road and with professional guidance.
> 
> In keeping with the original intent of this post, to demonstrate an example of "the perfect horse," does anyone know of a horse who is as well put together as ***** with the addition of a particularly good hind end?


I personally prefer Moorland Totilas's build over *****'s. I find it more proportional, and adhering more with the phrase "Front end of a duchess and hind end of a cook"! 









As far as I can see, though the grass is blocking them, his feet are also better than *****'s. I think he has better bone too. I find him more compact, and the slightly high wither on ***** does not present itself on Totilas. 



Also, looking at the over all picture- Look at *****. Your eye is automatically drawn straight to the bigger front end. You don't want your eye drawn to any part of the horse, good or bad. 

Now look at Totilas. Your eye is not drawn anywhere. You see the whole horse, instead of focusing on one aspect. 
Only well balanced horses can make you look at the whole picture  Totilas has succeeded, and ***** has not. That tells you a lot.

EDIT And another thing, Totilas has a 'vibe' surrounding him when he performs, like no other horse. A very powerful, dark vibe. Just watch his dressage to music with Gal, and you will see for yourself. I have seen him in the flesh once, and when he came into the warm up, everything and everyone just stopped. Horses stopped in mid piaffe, as riders stared at him, and spectators' eyes were riveted to him. 
I'm not a fan of Totilas's way of going, with the legs here there an everywhere in the extended trot. I prefer *****'s low, less exuberant movement. HOWEVER ***** could walk straight by any horse in the warm up without the rider batting an eyelid. He doesn't have that same presence as Totilas.


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## SueNH

Once again I'm the heretic. The Brabant was probably what started my horse crazies. My parents have several pictures of me sitting on them out in a field somewhere in Europe as a toddler.

TB's have never excited me. A good working team of heavy horses will make my heart flutter.


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## silverxslinky




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## Foxhunter

***** has a great front end but it is not matched by the back end. 
Totilas is way better proportioned.

I will say that not one of those pictures is very good from a professional point of view.

***** had a pole coming out of his back. Taken on a slope which accentuates the weaker rear end.
Totilas, dark horse against a dark back ground.
Valegro also had a lot of other things around him. 

As for the UK not having caught up with low heels, that is not so, might be in Ireland but not in England. Any farrier I have had has always shod with low heels.


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## silverxslinky

I decided to go back and mark up ***** and Totilas so that I could better see the difference between them. I think I agree with you that Totilas is the better conformed horse, but only slightly. He's got a more laid back shoulder for sure, a higher set neck, a longer forearm, and better front pasterns. You're right that he's lighter in the front, and he does not have as high a wither.

However, if he's got more bone it's negligible. ***** has a much cleaner head to neck connection and I think his loins are a little stronger. Totilas is also a longer more rectangular horse overall. You pointed out that you thought that *****'s croup was a bit flat, but from where I'm sitting they look like they have the same angle to them, *****'s is just longer. This may still have the effect of making him more of a leg mover than a back mover, I'm not entirely sure? ***** also looks to me like he's lighter in the front than behind contrary to your critique though the difference is not as dramatic as with totilas.

However, though Totilas is clearly a very very lovely, hugely successful horse, I've never been as enthralled with his performances as some. Personally I find his movement very like that of a saddlebred. He has a wonderfully free shoulder and very dramatic forelimb movement but he doesn't always seem to come through behind especially in the extended trot. And yes he looked this way even with the supremely talented Edward Gal aboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1ttmKBcJfs 
He looks like there's a fraction of a second of a difference between when his forelimbs and leave the ground and when his hind legs follow. I also feel like there are horses with better articulation in the hocks.

Because, as you said, ***** was never as successful as Toto, I choose another horse to compare, Valegro, sired by *****. Personally, I think that Valegro ridden by Dujardin is a more correct, if less flashy, example of a grand prix dressage horse. Watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcDLLxgWa_Y
To me he looks much more active behind than totilas, his hocks move like the pedals of a bicycle, he steps underneath himself more and the timing of his footfalls is the same in front and behind in the trot. To me Valegro looks very much like ***** with with the most notable difference being that he is a bit shorter and steeper behind.

So take what you will from that and please disagree with me on any points on which you feel I'm mistaken! I'm still learning as we all are, and have presented my opinions so that I can revise them as needed.


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## silverxslinky

Regarding the heels:



> 17. Heels (high–low) The height of the heels of the front hooves, measured between the ground and the coronet band. The heels are responsible for a correct position of foot and pastern. Heels that are broad and moderately high are best for soundness.


This is actually from the KWPN/NA website regarding scoring at inspections. Linear Scoring : KWPN-NA Not entirely sure what to make of that since most horses I see have short toes and low-ish heels.


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## CandyCanes

Silver, I probably missed many things. As all I did was run an eye over each of them. I didn't mark them up, so optical illusions would be overlooked. 

The Kwpn association, as you stated prefers high heels. In Ireland, foxhunter, we also go with high heels... Germany as far as I know due to Kwpn influence tends to go that way.


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## LoveofOTTB

My gelding is a Great-Grandson of Secretariat on both his sire and dam's side. He has OK conformation, of course when he came to me, he was skinny and his top line was terrible. He has now gotten fatter (just in time for the harsh part of our winter!) and we are slowly working on his top line, which I know will take time. I personally really do like Secretariats conformation, he was a stockier race horse. He was more built like the horses of the past, then the horses of the 70's were built. They tended to be sleeker, smaller boned, more like today's horses. He also had a nice strong back, which he passed down to my boy. I don't have the worlds best conformation shot of my guy, but here is a picture of him:








He is trained in hunter/jumper as well as western, and currently we are training him in western pleasure. To me he is perfect, and has things like his top line and neck, to work on =]

Here is a picture of Secretariat. He was just so beautiful, to me, lovely conformation:


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## EliRose

I've personally always really liked my gelding's grandsire, Dehere. He was bred/raced/stood at stud (for a time) in the town over from me, so we see his get all over. They all seem to be extremely athletic horses with super, super nice attitudes to boot.


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## smrobs

Physical perfection doesn't always result in impressive ability though. Look at Seabiscuit. His conformation was terrible, but he was a heck of a racehorse after they figured out how to get him to run.

To me, the "perfect" horse is any horse that has the constitution/conformation to remain sound and healthy for a lifetime of work in their given discipline. Because each discipline is so different and the physical requirements are so different, it only stands to reason that each "ideal" would be different.

Just look at the horses that have been posted; thoroughbreds and warmbloods that are the peak of racing and dressage competition.

Then, take a look at this guy. He would never win a race against a TB and never perform a pirouette to rival any dressage horse....but I bet they couldn't work a cow like he does. I dream of the day when I have a mare that is quality enough to breed to him


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## trailhorserider

EliRose said:


> I've personally always really liked my gelding's grandsire, Dehere. He was bred/raced/stood at stud (for a time) in the town over from me, so we see his get all over. They all seem to be extremely athletic horses with super, super nice attitudes to boot.


I like this guy A LOT.  

If I could change anything about him, I would give him just slightly thicker bone and hooves. But that's because I personally like stocky, thicker built horses. But this guy is darn near perfect in my eyes. Love his butt, neck, withers, shoulders, the depth of his heart girth, just about everything.


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## EliRose

trailhorserider said:


> I like this guy A LOT.
> 
> If I could change anything about him, I would give him just slightly thicker bone and hooves. But that's because I personally like stocky, thicker built horses. But this guy is darn near perfect in my eyes. Love his butt, neck, withers, shoulders, the depth of his heart girth, just about everything.


Wasn't he nice? Fantastic broodmare sire, and he put a lot of "pretty" on his babies. My guy's sire, Graeme Hall, is not as attractive or well put together as most of Dehere's family, but I blame the super coarse, thick Crafty Prospector for that :wink:


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## Foxhunter

As said earlier, the 'perfect' horse depends on what you want it for. 

A horse can have the perfect conformation for its standard but unless it has the right ethics towards work, it will be nothing but good looking! 

It is not just a matter of what it looks like but also of its brain and heart.

One of the most perfect horses I ever had the pleasure of working with was the perfect horse for showing what could go wrong with their legs! Splints, Spavins, windgalls, you name it and he showed signs of it! He had a big Roman nose, sway backed slightly and moved very wide behind.
When I got him he was very poor. Obviously elderly, and had known better times. He turned out to be a brilliant horse. Nothing ever fazed him, he was the best horse to ride out in heavy traffic with young horses and had a heck of a jump to him. 
A toddler could handle him, he gave confidence to nervous roders and he loved life and no matter where he went he drew attention, he was so noble.

A horse like that is worth ten that are correct but have the wrong attitude,


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## Patty Stiller

The"perfect horse" will depend on its intended use.
For example the shoulder you want in a draft is a little different from the shoulder you want in a jumper , or the shoulder in a sprint speed horse as compared to a distance horse. 

IF you mean the best type of overall all around conformation, here are a few of the things I want to see: 
a good slope to the shoulder, 
deep heart girth, 
matching hip and shoulder angles that create a belly line that is twice the length of the back, 
a LONG powerful croup and long hip,
low set hocks,
short cannon bones, 
neck that is not set too low and long enough to be flexible, 
straight forelegs
very SLIGHTLY cow hocked hind legs(for better pushing) 
large bone and feet 
and for bonus, a decent looking head.


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## Captain Evil

EDIT And another thing, Totilas has a 'vibe' surrounding him when he performs, like no other horse. A very powerful, dark vibe. Just watch his dressage to music with Gal, and you will see for yourself. I have seen him in the flesh once, and when he came into the warm up, everything and everyone just stopped. Horses stopped in mid piaffe, as riders stared at him, and spectators' eyes were riveted to him. 
I'm not a fan of Totilas's way of going, with the legs here there an everywhere in the extended trot. I prefer *****'s low, less exuberant movement. HOWEVER ***** could walk straight by any horse in the warm up without the rider batting an eyelid. He doesn't have that same presence as Totilas.[/QUOTE]

The first time I saw Totilas on a video with Edward Gal I couldn't believe it. He moved like no other horse I had ever seen. Just jaw-droppingly astonishing. The only thing I can compare it to was hearing Gidon Kremer play Vivaldi's Four Seasons in Edinburgh. That piece is like a favorite tweed jacket: well-worn and well-loved. I know it by heart. I settled back for a lovely evening...

WRONG!! 

Kremer played it as though his violin was on fire... It felt like the music just grabbed my bones and began shaking them. It was as different from my familiar Four Seasons as Totilas' movement was from every other horse I had ever watched move. I'll never forget either one.

I agree about the exaggerated movement: you just have to wonder how they achieved it; nevertheless, it is unforgettable.


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## Breezy2011

The 'perfect horse' to me is built a lot like my mare. I know I am biased, but I have been told by many people that she is VERY well built, plus, she is a 'true' black, for a bonus! She is only 3 right now, so does have some more filling out to do, but overall, to me she is the 'perfect horse' conformationally, and personality wise.


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## tinyliny

that's a lovely mare! does she have two blue eyes?


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## Breezy2011

tinyliny said:


> that's a lovely mare! does she have two blue eyes?


She just has one blue eye, one brown.


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