# Where to turn next with horses navicular?



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I have a horse here on Previcox. That's the name for the dog stuff. The horse dose is 1 dog pill cut into quarters, so 1 dog pill =4 horse pills. Way cheaper for the same medication. The only difference is the label, like Ulcergard vs Gastrogard. 
My vet gives me the dog med without any problems. Is he supposed to? Probably not but I appreciate it & so does the horse's owner.

If your vet is a stickler for rules that make no sense then he may not do it.

MSM is a pretty good anti-inflammatory.


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

on the subject of shoes. eggbar shoes and pads are not always the way to go. also wedges just speeds up navicular issues. find a farrier who is willing to put on ground control shoes. you can buy the shoes for $25 a pair and they will last you a few cycles. once they are trimmed to the horse they are simply to put on, they act like a cushion, protect the hoof and stimulate the frog.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

KigerQueen said:


> on the subject of shoes. eggbar shoes and pads are not always the way to go. also wedges just speeds up navicular issues. find a farrier who is willing to put on ground control shoes. you can buy the shoes for $25 a pair and they will last you a few cycles. once they are trimmed to the horse they are simply to put on, they act like a cushion, protect the hoof and stimulate the frog.




I'll look into the ground control shoes. My farrier brought up "glue on shoes", but he seemed peeved when talking about them because apparently now everyone thinks they can be a farrier with glue in shoes. He is an excellent corrective farrier though! I trust him 100% with my horses feet, he explains everything to me he continues his education (both him and his son went to Cornell), and I love that his son will eventually take over for him when he is ready to retire.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

natisha said:


> I have a horse here on Previcox. That's the name for the dog stuff. The horse dose is 1 dog pill cut into quarters, so 1 dog pill =4 horse pills. Way cheaper for the same medication. The only difference is the label, like Ulcergard vs Gastrogard.
> My vet gives me the dog med without any problems. Is he supposed to? Probably not but I appreciate it & so does the horse's owner.
> 
> If your vet is a stickler for rules that make no sense then he may not do it.
> ...


Her supps have 12,000mg of MSM in them. 

I'm hoping my bet will be flexable, she is VERY down to earth! I've been reading on the internet that vets have been sued to prescribing it to equines instead of dogs?? Doesn't make sense to me since you can use medications for things other then their intended use, or "off label".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Bute, my vets tell me 3 days, that's it, for full dosing 2x daily. Talk to your vet about this. It's serious medication. If three days don't help then you need to address other ways of making the horse more comfortable.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> Bute, my vets tell me 3 days, that's it, for full dosing 2x daily. Talk to your vet about this. It's serious medication. If three days don't help then you need to address other ways of making the horse more comfortable.


Exactly. I don't want her on a long term bute regime. Since its not severe I'm starting at the bottom and working my way up with treatment. Started with the natural supps, shoes and conditioning... Now feel I need to take another step up in managing her pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have had really good results with using 'half round' shoes. My farrier sets them back almost to the white line. I have shown horses in reining classes with these shoes. I have one older ex-roping gelding wearing them now. 

I have never had good results with egg-bars. I would keep a horse barefoot and short and rounded up good before I used anything but half rounds.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

The problem with Navicular is that their really are a lot of options out there but its kind of a game that you have to play until you figure it out. I started out with the aluminum wedge but I couldn't keep it on my guys feet and they ended up breaking apart so we switched to a steel shoe. That works so much better for him because I can keep them on his feet. I had him on the smartsox supplement for a while and I THINK it worked? I asked for the isoxsuprine because a lot of people said their horses were on it but I haven't been giving it to him lately.

I got him the Tildren shot a few years ago. It was about 1200 dollars. I did see results but only for about a year. His shoes are now a heart bar and that is working out well for him. About three weeks ago I got the Osphos shot and that really made a difference. It is a much, much lower fee. I think it was about 500. But it seems to have been worth it....

I only use bute when he needs it. For shoes I get the equinox because it lasts longer and is better on the tummy....

Good luck.....


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I assume Osphos is some sort of calcium shot? And is Tildren, is it like a legend? 

Cherie, he set her shoes back already, but I'll see if he can set them back more. I don't think she needs egg bars just yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

SlideStop said:


> Her supps have 12,000mg of MSM in them.
> 
> I'm hoping my bet will be flexable, she is VERY down to earth! I've been reading on the internet that vets have been sued to prescribing it to equines instead of dogs?? Doesn't make sense to me since you can use medications for things other then their intended use, or "off label".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people will sue over anything. I suppose your vet has to trust you or say it's for a dog.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

natisha said:


> Some people will sue over anything. I suppose your vet has to trust you or say it's for a dog.


To me it sounds like it's the FDA can take action if they find out. Not sure how they would, unless they did an audit or something. Of course I would NEVER "tattle tale" on my vet, but I would think they wouldn't be open to risking their loose their license over it. Then again, maybe I'm paranoid :lol: I think I'm going to nurse jail every day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

SlideStop said:


> I assume Osphos is some sort of calcium shot? And is Tildren, is it like a legend?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Tildren and Osphos are both the same class of drug, but delivered differently (one is given IM and the other IV through a drip, IIRC). The way they work is pretty complicated and I know I'll get it wrong if I try to do a quick summary, but there's an article in the current issue of Equus that explains it well. It would probably be worthwhile for you to hunt down a copy and give it a read


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

It is called 'off label use'. Most Vets and a good many MDs do it all of the time. They do not do it when it is contraindicated or has warnings, but most do it otherwise. 

It is just like the many, many horses that have been 'saved' by using DMSO IV when it is only sold as a 'solvent'. Even the Universities use it IV for West Nile and other neurological crisis problems including severe trauma.

I have never heard of any Vet getting in trouble with any board for off label drug use. Like MDs, the problem would come if they had a track record of actually injuring or killing animals with unapproved drugs or uses of them. 

There is a huge difference between a drug not being indicated or recommended for a specific use and having it be contraindicated or banned for a certain use.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

verona1016 said:


> Tildren and Osphos are both the same class of drug, but delivered differently (one is given IM and the other IV through a drip, IIRC). The way they work is pretty complicated and I know I'll get it wrong if I try to do a quick summary, but there's an article in the current issue of Equus that explains it well. It would probably be worthwhile for you to hunt down a copy and give it a read


It's exactly what I thought it would be! It basically like the new medications old ladies are getting for their osteoporosis. Makes to total sense, and it's worth looking into as an adjunctive therapy! Thank you!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Cherie said:


> It is called 'off label use'. Most Vets and a good many MDs do it all of the time. They do not do it when it is contraindicated or has warnings, but most do it otherwise.
> 
> It is just like the many, many horses that have been 'saved' by using DMSO IV when it is only sold as a 'solvent'. Even the Universities use it IV for West Nile and other neurological crisis problems including severe trauma.
> 
> ...


Thats what I figured. But after doing more research I found that most people were getting scripts for their dogs and giving it to their horses. I also stumbled on this vets page which broke down why they don't give prescribed previcox to horses: http://www.claramasondvm.com/previcox-in-horses.pml

Honestly, if you ask me, is a load of hot dog poop. Just another way for the drug companies to take make a quick dollar!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AlmostTexan (Apr 27, 2014)

This is interesting, as I just brought home a 7 yo QH gelding that the breeder told me was indicating navicular changes. I'm waiting, of course, for my vet to come out and do an assessment. Evidently the only time he shows any soreness is after he's been stalled. After 5 minutes of hand walking he is no longer sore. So far, no indication at the walk, trot, canter at the lunge left or right has shown anything. 

The breeder told me about Osphos so I'm looking into it. This is only the first time I've read about it. Pretty interesting.


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

subbing..


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

AlmostTexan said:


> This is interesting, as I just brought home a 7 yo QH gelding that the breeder told me was indicating navicular changes. I'm waiting, of course, for my vet to come out and do an assessment. Evidently the only time he shows any soreness is after he's been stalled. After 5 minutes of hand walking he is no longer sore. So far, no indication at the walk, trot, canter at the lunge left or right has shown anything.
> 
> The breeder told me about Osphos so I'm looking into it. This is only the first time I've read about it. Pretty interesting.


Navicular and arthritis have similar signs, but the major difference is that horses with arthritis work out of the stiffness while navicular horses the stiffness gets worse with exercise. Sounds like your guy most likey has arthritis. start him young on a good joint supp!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi Slide, haven't we been through this before? If so, got a link? If not, you will learn a lot about my views & experience on other threads. Just skimmed other responses here, so a quick(ish) note on your first post...



SlideStop said:


> I was really hoping that a good trim, a set of shoes and ...Right now she can handle a 20 min walk/trot/canter ride or about a 45 minute walk on trail (which is made specifically for horses) until I notice her taking shorter steps. She is never head bobbing lame, and I've noticed her noticeably off maybe 2 times.


Conventional (be that with or without bars or wedges) treatment is palliative only. That means, they can be effective in relieving symptoms temporarily, but as they don't address or help the cause and allow/exacerbate the bad mechanics, the 'disease' is progressive & usually needs stronger palliatives as time goes by.

Drugs are also palliative. They can help the symptoms only.

'Head bobbing lame' usually only happens when there is 'unilateral'(one sided) lameness. If the horse is sore in both fronts, or all feet/legs, they don't tend to head bob, but rather they will be 'short' and 'choppy' more evenly. 

If the horse is 'short' after 20 minutes, I wouldn't assume that mean she's fine up until that point, & obviously I missed something that you say you've only noticed her off 2 times & yet it sounds like she's always off after about 20 minutes, to the degree that you're considering painkillers.



> 2. Go for eggbar shoes, and possibly pads/wedges on the following trim if she needs it.


Farriers noticed a long time ago that horses who had heel pain/weak heels, could often be relieved of pain by using a bar shoe, to take the heels further out of comission. Unfortunately they also noticed that the 'disease' was still 'progressive', and at some point this measure stops working & then raising heels further out of the action, with gradually increasing wedges are necessary to keep the horse comfortable. So yes, if you reckon treating the symptoms is the best you can hope for, I'd go eggbars to start with. Gradually 'wedge' the heels up as needed.

BUT these days, we know that while any bone loss can't be regenerated, while crap heels can't become really strong, we can generally manage symptoms AND improve mechanics & function, so the hooves can improve too, not just palliative. Good trimming & hoof boots, padded if/as needed are at the basis of rehabilitation.



> would be $500 to inject both feet. I'm hoping I can get a year out of it. If I do it now she should be good through the fall, then when it gets cold I doubt I'll be riding much.


I appreciate others have different views, but I would personally be focussing on what you can do to help your horse REGARDLESS of riding. IME after & often even during rehab, the horse MAY be ridden, even often to pretty high standards again. But focus is on healing, not using. If your focus is just on being able to use your horse for as long as possible, then palliative measures might be best, as they'll probably keep the horse able to work for a few years yet, before you need to replace it.


----------



## AlmostTexan (Apr 27, 2014)

SlideStop said:


> Navicular and arthritis have similar signs, but the major difference is that horses with arthritis work out of the stiffness while navicular horses the stiffness gets worse with exercise. Sounds like your guy most likey has arthritis. start him young on a good joint supp!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was my train of thought, to be honest. Already started him on MSM and am researching a better product.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I recommend hoof boots as well. My navicular mare did not do well with shoes.

Is your horses feet contracted? As rehabilitation often involves getting that foot to expand.


You may wish to read the article on this website
Pete Ramey Articles


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Not sure, but I don't think so. 

The vet said her soles were way, way to thin and that she wouldn't be sound if he had trimmed her and not put shoes on her. I've been treating her feet with keratrex to toughen them up.

I really, really, wish I could get an ELPO farrier out, but the closest I can get is a Chris la Pierre farrier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Whoops, KC la Pierre. Chris is the woman who uses his method :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

The ground control shoes help the hoof expand and they also protect the sole. and frog stimulation is important for navicular horses. and it protects the sole of the hoof so it wont be ouchy. its also a cushion and that helps ouchy hooves.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm going to give the ground control shoes a try! I'm not sure how well she'd do barefoot. She's always had brittle, dry, thin, slow growing, feet. I have her on hoof supplements and I've been putting keratrex on her. 

I called my farrier earlier today to get his opinion and so I can get order them before Skippys appointment. 

Just one thing with the shoes, the break over doesn't look great with them? 

If anyone is interested, here is a video of her from Sunday after an hour trail ride! She felt really amazing Sunday. I'm really hopeful that we can stop or severely stunt the progression! 

http://youtu.be/AmckqPxMeY4
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SlideStop said:


> I'm going to give the ground control shoes a try!


As mentioned earlier, there are palliative measures such as this, or you can attempt to actually improve the state of affairs & heal & strengthen the feet. I don't think that palliative is necessarily a bad choice. Depends on the situation, whether the horse is too far gone or too old for attempting rehab to be worth a try, or perhaps the owner doesn't care to put in the effort & just wants to use the horse as long as possible before replacing it. 



> I'm not sure how well she'd do barefoot. She's always had brittle, dry, thin, slow growing, feet.


If she's always been shod conventionally then this will indeed effect hoof growth & strength too. Keratex will make horn more brittle too. If the horse is uncomfortable bare in the paddock, then she has a serious issue & may need 24/7 protection, but even extremely brittle, slow growing feet aren't likely to get too worn bumming around a paddock. But yes, I'd imagine she wouldn't do well working bare, and padded boots for work are the way I'd probably go.



> She felt really amazing Sunday. I'm really hopeful that we can stop or severely stunt the progression!


So if that's the case, I'd be attempting to implement rehab measures, rather than bar shoes, as palliative measures will not 'stunt or stop progression'.



> Just one thing with the shoes, the break over doesn't look great with them?


The 'breakover' can be put wherever you want it. By placing the shoe in the right spot on the foot, but also you can rasp a bevel into the toe of the shoe too. If you're referring to the pics above, yeah, not perfect, altho doesn't look bad, but that's the farriery not the shoes, and it may be because it appears too large shoes have been used, that hang out the back.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I hope you're not insinuating that I don't care to put in the effort :? I'm willing to do just about ANYTHING (within my means) to help her, whether it's make her better or give her relief. This horse has had my heart for 6 years and finally being able to call her mine is mind blowing to me. Her being useful is important to me (at $600 a month for board!) but her comfort and wellness is equally, if not more, important!

When I have fhe farrier out maybe I'll have him evaluate her feet again. Maybe he thinks her soles are tough enough now. 

As for total rehab, do you think it's possible based on the video? I could get more of you need, and I have copy's of her X-Rays. Realistically, she is 19, her years are good riding are drawing shorter and shorter. I'm torn between trying to really fix the problem and being more palliative (meds, injections, shoes) while trying to stunt the progression with something like Osphos or Trildren. At the end of the day I just want what's best for her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SlideStop said:


> I hope you're not insinuating that I don't care to put in the effort :?


Not assuming anything of the sort, just explaining one of a few reasons someone might choose palliative rather than rehab. :wink:



> Maybe he thinks her soles are tough enough now.


Not likely, unless a lot of changes and time has happened since they were 'too thin'. But boots or such are generally effective measures to deal with this, and I do think, that with the flexible frog support(instead of fixed bar), that Easyshoes may be another alternative which won't be purely palliative.



> As for total rehab, do you think it's possible based on the video?


Couldn't possibly say, but an awful lot of horses have been returned to useful, 'working' lives after being 'incurably' 'navicular'. Be interested to see rads.



> I'm torn between trying to really fix the problem and being more palliative


As are many. You're not alone. One good thing(THE one good thing??) about 'navicular' is that it tends to be very slow progressing. So IMO you have nothing much to lose in giving rehab a go - you can always go back to palliative measures if it's not achieving anything or the horse is in pain.


----------



## Cappaloosa (May 21, 2013)

I am curious to hear what rehab options there are for navicular?

It is a degenerative disease that you can slow from progressing, but it will never go back to what it was before. If you have ever looked at a fluoroscope or xray of a horse with 'navicular changes' you will see darkened circles on the navicular bone. The dark circles are where the bone is deteriorating, due to inflammation, concussive effects and compromised blood flow to the tissues around the area. I realize that it sounds pretty horrible, but in all honesty, having worked as a racehorse and pleasure horse vet tech, its rare to find completely healthy navicular bones. 

That being said, there are steps you can take to slow the progress. Someone earlier mentioned isoxuprene, and I personally have had great results with that paired with a rolled toe shoe and gel pad. The ground control shoes also look really interesting, although I don't have any personal experience with them. 

I know you had mentioned navicular injections and although many people are anti- joint injections, I have seen many horses improve significantly from them. A lot of people believe all they do is band-aid the problem, but I personally think that is untrue. A lot of the injections offered now actually act as a lubricant and anti inflammatory. They also encourage healthy joint fluid production in the joint.

My 7 yr old Shamus had navicular changes in his fronts when I had him fluoroscoped by my boss and I know that when it comes to it, joint injections will be the route I will be taking. 

In any case, if you have the option I would recommend shipping into a facility that routinely works on Standardbred/ Thoroughbred racehorses as this is something we dealt with on a daily basis at the race track facility here. They will be up to date on new treatments as well as experienced in dealing with all levels of navicular. 

Also, I just wanted to commend you on taking any steps necessary to make sure your horse is happy and healthy. He looked pretty great in the video


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cappaloosa said:


> I am curious to hear what rehab options there are for navicular?
> 
> It is a degenerative disease that you can slow from progressing, but it will never go back to what it was before. If you have ever looked at a fluoroscope or xray of a horse with 'navicular changes' you will see


Yeah, you can't reverse it, but it doesn't seem to matter, to the comfort & soundness of the animal. If you've ever seen xrays of horses not lame with 'navicular' you can sometimes see the same. *It's not just on the navicular bone either. Soft tissue damage happens first too, before you'll see any evidence of bone changes. For that you need ultrasound. Bone degeneration can't be 'fixed', and to a large degree at least, depending on state of the damage & age of the horse, damage(or often failure of development in the first place) to digital cushions & lateral cartilage is also not able to be turned around.

BUT if the feet are able to return/be brought into functional form, and the horse can start comfortably landing heel first(usually with padded boots under the weak heels), the bone & tissue degeneration will not progress - they only continue to 'progressively degenerate' because the same unhealthy factors are effecting them. And horses can become comfortable and continue working again.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Loosie, here are the rads: 

Asteris Email Data Retrieval Â« Asteris
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Afraid it wants me to install another program to view/download. Can you attache them as jpg's?


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

if you click the folder that says jpegs you can view them in browser.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

loosie said:


> Afraid it wants me to install another program to view/download. Can you attache them as jpg's?


Did you click the link? It should all be on the website. No need to download anything. If you click on it and it does want you to download something I'll post them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cappaloosa (May 21, 2013)

loosie said:


> Yeah, you can't reverse it, but it doesn't seem to matter, to the comfort & soundness of the animal. If you've ever seen xrays of horses not lame with 'navicular' you can sometimes see the same. *It's not just on the navicular bone either. Soft tissue damage happens first too, before you'll see any evidence of bone changes. For that you need ultrasound. Bone degeneration can't be 'fixed', and to a large degree at least, depending on state of the damage & age of the horse, damage(or often failure of development in the first place) to digital cushions & lateral cartilage is also not able to be turned around.
> 
> BUT if the feet are able to return/be brought into functional form, and the horse can start comfortably landing heel first(usually with padded boots under the weak heels), the bone & tissue degeneration will not progress - they only continue to 'progressively degenerate' because the same unhealthy factors are effecting them. And horses can become comfortable and continue working again.



I agree, by your previous comments I thought you were saying there was a 'cure' for it. Would be nice!! But I agree that returning the hoof to proper functioning form is step #1 in the whole process of giving her horse the best chance. 

Also what I was saying about navicular changes is that many horses have the 'changes' without any lameness or functional problems yet. So I also agree that early detection and treatment is key.


----------



## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

It's asking to download Silverlight which is a microsoft program. Netflix runs off it.
Which kind of confuses me because I have silverlight in this computer.

I'll be the adventurous one and click. If I don't come back you know I blew my computer up.


----------



## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

It works. Safe. 

I don't know much about xrays. I'm just lurk and learn.


----------



## Cappaloosa (May 21, 2013)

SlideStop said:


> Loosie, here are the rads:
> 
> Asteris Email Data Retrieval Â« Asteris
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She certainly does have an interesting foot. It looks like in addition to the navicular changes she also has the beginning of some sidebone. Does she have contracted heels? Does your farrier have a plan of action from here? If you give her/him the rads, they should be able to come up with a good plan based on your horses confirmation, feet and ground conditions to get to a place to keep what has happened from progressing more.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

This are her heels with shoes 



This is before the shoes: 



I could take more photos today if you'd like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cappaloosa (May 21, 2013)

SlideStop said:


> This are her heels with shoes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They actually don't look bad to me, although I'm not a farrier so someone else may be able to give you more info.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, firstly, when I clicked the link again to tell you exactly what the viewing prob was, it worked. Was hoping Patty would comment on rads, as I can see the... more obtuse bits, but not greatly skilled in reading them. Really wish all vets would mark the feet for rads! Would be more helpful for assessing balance & accuracy.

Yes, some interesting stuff in the back of the foot there, also the lateral imbalance in the bones of the right fore, d/p view. Although sidebone is so normal, esp for a horse of that age, that I've even heard vets call it 'natural development'! As with the opacity of P3 - it is considered normal for P3 to be... holey, and not have a periosteum, unlike every other bone in the horse's and every other species' body. I'm not sure about how thin it actually is though or whether it's the xray strength tho. 

Toes a bit forward, very thin soles(could tell precisely if only vet had marked), looks poss thinner on right fore, and on the right it seems a little 'broken back' h/p angle, causing the joint spacings to be more closed cranially(at the front).

Then the pics. Yes, a bit fwd toes, a little contracted, not bad tho, in shoes. Obviously thin(flat?) soles. But the bare feet, appear more 'stretched', especially the second one(left?) & that crack looks roughly about where it should be.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

If you could believe it she was trimmed 12 days before that!! The farrier where she was wasn't that good, although the other girls raved about him. Her hoof walls were uneven too. The farrier now brought her toes back significantly and is rebalancing her hoof walls.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cappaloosa (May 21, 2013)

I hope you don't mind, I went ahead and marked up some of the rads that were taken to give you a better idea of what I see.









In this photo I have the anterior surface of the P2/P3 circled. There is a little bone remodelling here and the joint space is slightly narrower, likely due to having P3 slighting tipped forwards, causing extra concussion on that area. 










In this photo I just have the slight sidebone circled for interests sake. It is a little worse on one side, indicating a laterally unbalanced hoof.
The large circle in the middle is Skippys navicular bone. As you can see there is 'channeling' throughout the bone (the darker lines).The darker areas is where the bone is softer. This rad is the right front, and the channeling in the left front navicular is more moderate. Sidebone in the left front is also more moderate. Could be that he is a 'left footed' horse?










Again just side bone from a posterior view of the left front. It's more progressed on the medial hoof, indicating that he is likely landing inside first in his stride. 










Loosie is correct in that the P3 always has the 'moth eaten' look without any periosteum. The areas I have circled are areas where the bone has slowly 'worn away' due to increased concussion. This is like because of the 'tipped forward' P3 mentioned in the first rad. It's not bad now, but will continue to worsen if there continues to be pressure on the tip of the P3. Again, the left front is slightly worse than the right front. This is common in horses with heel pain since the are landing toe first to avoid discomfort from sore heels.

I hope I didn't scare you or anything, just wanted to explain a little more of what I was seeing in the rads.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Wow!! Thank you for doing that! 

When I first started working with her the left side was the weakest. Eventually her weak side became her strong side and just out of habit I ride her more to left. 

Anywho, obviously there is no way to reverse the changes, but will rebalancing her hoof help? Also, Maybe the Osphos could help prevent more changes to the bones. 

My horse is a train wreck! Can't wait to get a good handle on all this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Also, do you think icing her feet after we ride could help take down the inflammation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cappaloosa (May 21, 2013)

SlideStop said:


> Wow!! Thank you for doing that!
> 
> When I first started working with her the left side was the weakest. Eventually her weak side became her strong side and just out of habit I ride her more to left.
> 
> ...


I would definitely not say trainwreck!! I know it sounds like a lot, but I don't see anything there that can't be treated. I promise you, she is not as bad as it sounds. Most hooves have some kind of remodeling no matter their discipline or conformation.

I don't have any experience with Osphos, but it could definitely help strengthen her P3. As Loosie said, Sidebone is really no biggie and most adult horses have some form of it. As for rebalancing, I dont have much experience with farrier work, but it could help prevent further damage. Sometimes conformation dictates the way they land (inside/outside etc). I don't want to give you an idea on how to trim or anything, because its honestly not my strong area. I'm sure an experienced farrier should be able to help with a game plan for the feet going forward. Most farriers I know loove rads, so I'm sure just having them to show will help lots.


----------



## Cappaloosa (May 21, 2013)

SlideStop said:


> Also, do you think icing her feet after we ride could help take down the inflammation?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know how much of a difference it would make, but it definitely couldn't hurt! You could always try it for a few weeks and see if you notice a change at all.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I iced her feet after I rode for about 25 minutes. Hopefully it cuts down on the inflammation! Besides being time consuming, it's pretty cheap. If it helps her, great, if not at least I didn't waste a ton of money!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cappaloosa said:


> Loosie is correct in that the P3 always has the 'moth eaten' look without any periosteum. ...This is like because of the 'tipped forward' P3 ... This is common in horses with heel pain since the are landing toe first to avoid discomfort from sore heels.


Good further explanations. Mostly agree but want to elaborate & give a bit more food for thought on the above.

It is *normal* for P3 to look 'motheaten' & lacking periosteum. So normal that it is accepted as natural. Perhaps in shod horses it is always the case, but in foals and some adult, and many feral horses, it is not the case. I'm not experienced enough by a very long shot in this, to assert definite conclusions, but a couple of things to ponder... If it is the natural state of P3 in Equus Cabellus, it is the only structural bone in the horse's body like it, and there are no other structural bones in any other animal(inc P3 in other wild equidae) that are naturally like this. In any other animal this state is called osteoporosis. In horses who have become clinically lame with no other obvious cause, it is called pedal osteitis.

Re 'tipped forward' P3, I don't think that's *obviously* the case actually. I haven't measured angles, but agree it appears that the distal(ground surface) angle of P3 could be a tad steeper than 'normal'('should' be around 3-5 degrees... tho the sort of fluffy look to it...). It could be the way the horse is standing, but it's slightly 'broken back' if anything, so I'm thinking that P3 angle is probably not far out for this horse. Looking at the photos(lateral view on the ground would help too), it also doesn't appear heels could/should be lower.

And toe first landings & heel pain... Could absolutely be as you said, but can be a chicken or egg question. Even if P3 isn't too steep, even if the horse doesn't land toe first, long toes will cause the 'broken back' strain at breakover/take off, which not only causes damage to the cranial joint surfaces(& associated soft tissue), but this causes great tension and ensuing damage on the DDFT, and in consequence, the whole 'navicular region'.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SlideStop said:


> I iced her feet after I rode for about 25 minutes. Hopefully it cuts down on the inflammation! Besides being time consuming, it's pretty cheap. If it helps her, great, if not at least I didn't waste a ton of money!


Yeah it isn't going to hurt to ice them, and if they do become inflamed, I think it's a good move, as may be giving bute or such, short term for inflammation(or turmeric), but if I thought riding her was going to cause damage & inflammation - or if hoof confo is as the photos with long toes, I wouldn't be riding her. *Again, not assuming, thinking this is stating obvious to you actually, but worth saying I reckon. :wink:

To your earlier question, yes, balancing *& adequately supporting/protecting feet with padded boots etc can indeed prevent further damage & so halt 'progress' of the 'disease'. I speak from experience. **Toe first impacts/broken back liftoffs are indeed harmful, so it should be avoided where possible, working 'navicular' horses up hills, where toe first impacts are a given.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Well, she seems to enjoy the ice! She stand in there, fetlock deep, all by herself for 20 minutes. 

I think my game plan is going to be injections, for now, then in the fall I'm going to transition her back to barefoot. I'm thinking the injections will subside the inflammation and discomfort in that area for the summer, then while transitioning her to barefoot, getting her heels wider, etc. Then hopefully we'll be in the clear!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah, but at her age, I don't think 'transitioning to barefoot' and 'getting heels wider' is realistic. She's likely to always need padded boots on hard/rough ground IME. Injections for now will hopefully counter the effects of shoes for the time being.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Maybe I dropped the ball somewhere here.... But isnt that what you've been telling me to do all along here? Pull her shoes because it would be better for her? 

And of course she'll need boots for riding. She'd need them even if she was 100% healthy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yes, pull her shoes, just IME (probably) not realistic to 'transition her to bare'. But then you say 'of course she'll need boots for riding'(tho not a given she'd need them if she was healthy footed, 100% or otherwise ;-) ) so I think just the choice of terms is the confusion.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Ok, longgggg talk with the farrier! 

Basically he this she would do really well with a synthetic shoe. Turns out he has more experience with them then I thought, he's even lectured at Cornell about them! The price difference is going to be pretty steep, depending on the brand and way he puts it on, about $60 more. I'm not sure the brand he uses but he said he'd text me today with the brand and price (it was pretty late last night). Then, in November-ish, I'll pull her shoes and just stick with boots for riding. When summer comes back around I'll may have the rubbers put back on, depending on her comfort. 

I'm going to put the other vet stuff on hold, except the Osphos injection, and see what kind of results I get from the rubber shoes. 

This horse drives me to drink! Oh, wait, I can't afford that! :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^You'll have to start brewing your own beer - have one for me when you do!


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

loosie said:


> ^You'll have to start brewing your own beer - have one for me when you do!


Hate beer! I'll have to figure out how to make the hard stuff!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Well, there on! I snapped a few quick pictures. The brand is called easy walker, and he keeps them in stock and is very familiar with using them. Costs $170 in total, and hopefully I can get a second cycle out of them! If the makes a difference I'll stick with them since its much less invasive then injections or medications. Time will tell. Oh, he also made it a point to reiterate what crappy, slow growing feet she has. The backs he literally just cleaned up and reshaped with a rasp, no nipper needed. If she were barefoot she'd likely wear away more hoof then she grows. 




_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i wanted to get thoughts but the company that makes them has gone under. i didnt want to get something then not be able to get more.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Really?? My farrier didn't make any mention that. Are you sure?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i tried to find their website and though some digging it turns out easy walker when under. idk if someone else took over production but i could not find anything on sizing so i went looking. easy walkers where my first choice. i love the ground control shoes but they are hard to clean under.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

KigerQueen said:


> i tried to find their website and though some digging it turns out easy walker when under. idk if someone else took over production but i could not find anything on sizing so i went looking. easy walkers where my first choice. i love the ground control shoes but they are hard to clean under.


Ask your farrier to put silicone under it so the dirt doesn't get stuck. Hopefully my farrier can continue to get the Easywalkers! Or we switch to Easy Shoes by the easy boot company.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i wanted the easy shoes too but the price and the amount of resets i could get where not worth it to mee. as for the silicone im worried that she will get moisture under it and get thrush (she likes standing in wet because she is a special type of special). also does not the sole need to breath?


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Before the silicone is placed the foot should be dried with a blow dryer. I've even read of it being down with a torch. Once the silicone goes in there should be much room for anything. My farrier was explaining to me that the silicone adds an additional layer of protection to the sole,adds more weight bearing surface area and helps increase the dissipation of concussion when the foot strikes the ground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

its worth a shot. idk how my mare will take a blow dryer. that is if it doesn't fry from the heat -_-'. ill talk to my farrier about it though.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

:happydance: 
:happydance:
:happydance:

The vet came out today and good news.... She said she's made significant improvements!! She says whatever I'm doing is working well for her! 

She basically gave me two options. The "quick fix", injections into the navicular bursa, but I'm fine with taking the less aggressive route. She got the Osphos today! For future doses the vet will give me a script for it and I'll just give it myself, which will help cut costs a bit. She also recommended I begin her on some aspirin or isox to increase the blood flow to the area. 

So long as she keeps doing well I won't see the vet until I'm ready to have her re-x-rayed. 

Here's to many more rides with my girl! :cowboy:


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Congrats!!! this has been an exciting day!

mine was going to get osphos today but there is no bone damage (well a tiny spot not even the sixe of a pin) on the skyline shots. my vet sees an improvement in mine as well! synthetic shoeing and corect/timely shoeing seams to be working for both out poneys!!!!


----------



## Cappaloosa (May 21, 2013)

SlideStop said:


> :happydance:
> :happydance:
> :happydance:
> 
> ...



Great to hear!!! Sorry i've been MIA lately, horse probs of my own very "special" mare. lol.

I have had great results with isox on my hold horse with navicular changes/ringbone. He was feeling so well that I was able to ride him regularly until he was about 30. He went on it 6 yrs before that and I noticed a marked improvement within about a month. I also had the silicone you mentioned as an additional cushion which I think also contributed a lot.


----------



## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Cappaloosa said:


> Great to hear!!! Sorry i've been MIA lately, horse probs of my own very "special" mare. lol.
> 
> I have had great results with isox on my hold horse with navicular changes/ringbone. He was feeling so well that I was able to ride him regularly until he was about 30. He went on it 6 yrs before that and I noticed a marked improvement within about a month. I also had the silicone you mentioned as an additional cushion which I think also contributed a lot.


I'm in the process of ordering isox today! I had a lightbulb moment yesterday. A few weeks ago the farrier was saying how little her feet have grown. He hardly nipped off anything! My mare feet looked about the same after he left. She's always had crummy feet, and this is her second trip with me, so I chocked it up to being normal for her. But yesterday I think it makes sense. She probably isn't getting great circulation down there. I could have her on all the best supps in the world and if they aren't getting down to where they need it's pointless. So, isox it is! 

The shoes have really helped, I think. No questions rocks aren't a bother for her any more and her stride is longer, especially in the road!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

