# Spade bits.



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

The main two folks you'll want to talk to here are kevinshorses and CowChick77, they are the ones most experienced with the Spade on this forum.

I like to see a good bridle horse at work, but I've never had one of my own.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I am with you both a true bridle horse is a sight to behold.

And yes it is a very misunderstood bit. People think it is cruel and used as a torture device which is so far from the truth. It is actually very comfortable for the horse and there is, depending on the sway bars and balance, quite a bit pre-signal before it engaged. 

We don't have any true bridle horses, Gracie and Zorro are ridden in half breeds but just recently figured out that Zorro prefers a Spade over the half breed mouthpiece. 
I have tried riding him in everything, I have put him in a snaffle, a correction, square swivel port, various half breeds of widths, heights and amount of tongue relief and he loves a Spade. The spade we use on him is pretty forgiving it lays back and has a large spoon which fits him well with his big wide mouth, so he by no means is "straight up".

I would love to train a horse completely the vaquero way, without starting with a snaffle and take my time.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Like Cowchick i don't have a true bridle horse right now. I have a couple that I ride in halfbreeds and one that I'm getting ready to put in the hackamore from a snaffle. The next horse I start for myself will be in the hackamore and never have a bit in his mouth until the two-rein. If you're on facebook you can look at the group called Californio Traditions. They are a very knowledgeable group of folks that are really willing to help. if you prefer a forum formatted like this one then Classical Horsemanship forum is a good one. It's new and doesn't have many members so there isn't a lot to look at but if you have a question it's a good place to post it.

I think if you use some social networking you'll find that there are more people than you think that are interested in bridle horses on the East coast.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

(Please note I am ignorant on this subject, so no disrespect intended). This may be a dumb question, but is it always the necessary to go from a traditional hackamore through all the steps to get to a spade bit horse? 

What if the horse is used to a regular curb bit? What would happen if you tried a spade?

Please note, I am not thinking of doing this, I don't even have own a spade. I am just curious if a horse that is well broke and light on a "normal" curb could switch to a spade? And if not, why would that not work? 

Aren't the mechanics similar in that the horse should be responding off the signal and not the actual mouth pressure? So if he backs off a regular curb and carries himself nicely, would he do the same thing in a spade?

Just thoughts in my meandering mind.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> If you're on facebook you can look at the group called Californio Traditions. They are a very knowledgeable group of folks that are really willing to help. if you prefer a forum formatted like this one then Classical Horsemanship forum is a good one. It's new and doesn't have many members so there isn't a lot to look at but if you have a question it's a good place to post it.



That's good to know, I will have to check that out. 

I got ****ed off and deleted my FB page and I was a member of the Californio page. Was wondering where to get my "fix" from, haha.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

The horse may respond well to the spade but it wouldn't have the same look or feel as a horse that was brought through the whole process. Adjusted properly a spade can be used as a leverage bit if a horse is light enough but all you'll have is a conventionally trained horse packing a $400 bit.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> (Please note I am ignorant on this subject, so no disrespect intended). This may be a dumb question, but is it always the necessary to go from a traditional hackamore through all the steps to get to a spade bit horse?
> 
> What if the horse is used to a regular curb bit? What would happen if you tried a spade?
> 
> ...


Good question! And the answer is yes. Zorro is a retired rodeo pickup horse and he gets rode in a Spade. He has always been rode in a correction of some sort. He is responsive and he will ride fine in those bits and responsive but we were looking for something for him to be happier with. But again he isn't a true bridle horse, he just happens to be happy in one and packing it.

But like FF said it is more about the process then the end result with traditional Vaquero style horsemanship.


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## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

I'd love to learn more about the Spades, Vaquero style horsemanship, I was doing some research and came across this gentlemen, "Richard Caldwell - Vaquero Horsemanship" , I was curious if you guys have heard of him?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Okay, got it! I was thinking "all that just to ride in a spade bit?" :lol: 

Does anyone know of any online videos offhand that would show me what a bridle horse looks like in action? Something that shows what the finished goal is? Because there are a lot of light, responsive normally trained horses out there. Like reining horses and such. How is a bridle horse different than say a good reining horse?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Yep! that guy is pretty handy, he shows at the NCHA snaffle Bit Futurity too. Which that was the whole idea behind the futurity.

Chief Rojas designed the futurity with this style of horsemanship in mind. You were supposed to bring the same horse back every year ans show him in each stage....well you can see what it turned into.

Chief Rojas wrote an excellent book about that and the history of this style horsemanship, can't remember the name of it right now, but I will dig it out.


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## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Yep! that guy is pretty handy, he shows at the NCHA snaffle Bit Futurity too. Which that was the whole idea behind the futurity.
> 
> Chief Rojas designed the futurity with this style of horsemanship in mind. You were supposed to bring the same horse back every year ans show him in each stage....well you can see what it turned into.
> 
> Chief Rojas wrote an excellent book about that and the history of this style horsemanship, can't remember the name of it right now, but I will dig it out.


 Would you recommend Richard's books and dvds for someone who wants to learn? He's doing a clinic thats about oh..lets round it to 21 HRS away from me would he be worth the drive to go see? Its just a horsemenship clinc but I'd like to know your opinion


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> Okay, got it! I was thinking "all that just to ride in a spade bit?" :lol:
> 
> Does anyone know of any online videos offhand that would show me what a bridle horse looks like in action? Something that shows what the finished goal is? Because there are a lot of light, responsive normally trained horses out there. Like reining horses and such. How is a bridle horse different than say a good reining horse?


Look up Richard Caldwell or Bruce Sandifer, they both have videos on YouTube and they have websites.

I would almost say reining somewhat derived from the goal to have the ultimate bridle horse or responsive horse. Again the process is a little different and reining like any other show class has considerably evolved from the original intent. The reined cowhorse classes are still fairly close.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Evansk said:


> Would you recommend Richard's books and dvds for someone who wants to learn? He's doing a clinic thats about oh..lets round it to 21 HRS away from me would he be worth the drive to go see? Its just a horsemenship clinc but I'd like to know your opinion


If I was you, I would maybe watch some of his YouTube videos, see if you like him. Then maybe get a video or two. If you are still interested then go to a clinic. I would go watch


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## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> If I was you, I would maybe watch some of his YouTube videos, see if you like him. Then maybe get a video or two. If you are still interested then go to a clinic. I would go watch


 
 Thanks! I'll look him up on Youtube.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Evansk said:


> Would you recommend Richard's books and dvds for someone who wants to learn? He's doing a clinic thats about oh..lets round it to 21 HRS away from me would he be worth the drive to go see? Its just a horsemenship clinc but I'd like to know your opinion


You should contact Richard and see what you need to do to host a clinic. I wanted to go to a Ray Hunt clinic but didn't want to travel very far so I contacted him about hosting one. It was quite easy and I ended up basicilly riding in both classes for free. The most difficult part was finding an arena to hold it at.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I wrote my last post before I realized you were in the YUKON! That may complicate matters some.


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## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> You should contact Richard and see what you need to do to host a clinic. I wanted to go to a Ray Hunt clinic but didn't want to travel very far so I contacted him about hosting one. It was quite easy and I ended up basicilly riding in both classes for free. The most difficult part was finding an arena to hold it at.


 
Thats a good idea as well! I'll check out his videos and see. If he's as good as his Clinic Testimonials, I'll contact him about a clinic way up north here.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Evansk said:


> Thats a good idea as well! I'll check out his videos and see. If he's as good as his Clinic Testimonials, I'll contact him about a clinic way up north here.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

I contacted Richard Caldwell awhile back with basically the same question I asked here. He responded very quickly but his answer wasn't the most promising. He didn't know of anyone over this way that could help me with the spade stuff. I also contacted another guy. I can't remember his name but he has the Modern Vaquero ensure. Never heard from him. My wife and I are going to a buck brannaman clinic( just to watch) in October. Maybe there will be some folks there that can point me in the right direction to start down the path. I have my 5 yr old going pretty good( well I think so) in a hackamore. I got him when he was 3 and don't know much of his previous training. I started riding him in a snaffle and then moved him to a hackamore. I still have plenty of time before I even think about getting a spade. I just want to know more before I spend 375-400 bucks for a spade to find out it won't work with him. That and I don't want it tone a bad experience for him or me. I also have a 3 yr old that is going decent in the snaffle but I haven't moved him to the hackamore. He's still aways away for that. I've been having a hard time getting any consistent riding since the little one was born and the screwy weather.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

Fort fireman said:


> I contacted Richard Caldwell awhile back with basically the same question I asked here. He responded very quickly but his answer wasn't the most promising. He didn't know of anyone over this way that could help me with the spade stuff. I also contacted another guy. I can't remember his name but he has the Modern Vaquero ensure. Never heard from him. My wife and I are going to a buck brannaman clinic( just to watch) in October. Maybe there will be some folks there that can point me in the right direction to start down the path. I have my 5 yr old going pretty good( well I think so) in a hackamore. I got him when he was 3 and don't know much of his previous training. I started riding him in a snaffle and then moved him to a hackamore. I still have plenty of time before I even think about getting a spade. I just want to know more before I spend 375-400 bucks for a spade to find out it won't work with him. That and I don't want it tone a bad experience for him or me. I also have a 3 yr old that is going decent in the snaffle but I haven't moved him to the hackamore. He's still aways away for that. I've been having a hard time getting any consistent riding since the little one was born and the screwy weather.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Buck has a series on making a bridle horse. Maybe if you get the chance ask him.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Yep! that guy is pretty handy, he shows at the NCHA snaffle Bit Futurity too. Which that was the whole idea behind the futurity.
> 
> Chief Rojas designed the futurity with this style of horsemanship in mind. You were supposed to bring the same horse back every year ans show him in each stage....well you can see what it turned into.
> 
> Chief Rojas wrote an excellent book about that and the history of this style horsemanship, can't remember the name of it right now, but I will dig it out.


The NRCHA...not the NCHA.

And the book is by Arnold Rojas, These Were The Vaqueros.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Fort fireman said:


> I contacted Richard Caldwell awhile back with basically the same question I asked here. He responded very quickly but his answer wasn't the most promising. He didn't know of anyone over this way that could help me with the spade stuff. I also contacted another guy. I can't remember his name but he has the Modern Vaquero ensure. Never heard from him. My wife and I are going to a buck brannaman clinic( just to watch) in October. Maybe there will be some folks there that can point me in the right direction to start down the path. I have my 5 yr old going pretty good( well I think so) in a hackamore. I got him when he was 3 and don't know much of his previous training. I started riding him in a snaffle and then moved him to a hackamore. I still have plenty of time before I even think about getting a spade. I just want to know more before I spend 375-400 bucks for a spade to find out it won't work with him. That and I don't want it tone a bad experience for him or me. I also have a 3 yr old that is going decent in the snaffle but I haven't moved him to the hackamore. He's still aways away for that. I've been having a hard time getting any consistent riding since the little one was born and the screwy weather.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That definitly sucks that you don't have anyone near you help you. I think Richard Caldwell has a Youtube video to kinda help explain fitting a horse with a spade. Les Vogt does too. It sounds like it is going to be hard for you to find a bit because you will have to order one rather than walk into Capriolas and pick some up in your hands and feel them. The good thing is that once you buy one if it doesn't work they make for good trading material and you may be able to trade for one more fitting for your pony. 

I have the Buck Bridle Horse series on VHS....I just found them digging out the Rojas book..lol...if you have a VHS player I would be more than happy to send them to you to watch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> That definitly sucks that you don't have anyone near you help you. I think Richard Caldwell has a Youtube video to kinda help explain fitting a horse with a spade. Les Vogt does too. It sounds like it is going to be hard for you to find a bit because you will have to order one rather than walk into Capriolas and pick some up in your hands and feel them. The good thing is that once you buy one if it doesn't work they make for good trading material and you may be able to trade for one more fitting for your pony.
> 
> I have the Buck Bridle Horse series on VHS....I just found them digging out the Rojas book..lol...if you have a VHS player I would be more than happy to send them to you to watch.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Fort fireman said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thank you very much for the offer however I no longer have a VHS player. I have been thinking of getting the bridle horse series from buck though. The whole bridle horse thing may just be a pipe dream . Hopefully I may be able to find some leads in October at the clinic. I wish I could ride in it but it is kinda pricey and the lady that is putting it on said they usuall are sold out by the end of the weekend for the following year. Not to mention im working 2 of the 4 days.Maybe I can learn by watching and being a sponge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Fort fireman said:


> I thank you very much for the offer however I no longer have a VHS player. I have been thinking of getting the bridle horse series from buck though. The whole bridle horse thing may just be a pipe dream . Hopefully I may be able to find some leads in October at the clinic. I wish I could ride in it but it is kinda pricey and the lady that is putting it on said they usuall are sold out by the end of the weekend for the following year. Not to mention im working 2 of the 4 days.Maybe I can learn by watching and being a sponge.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't give up, it just sounds like it's going to be more trial and error rather than having a mentor guide you through. If you have any reined cowhorse trainers close that will help, that is as close to it as you may get. Also buy a membership to "Giddy Up Flix" I think it is like $11 a month and you "rent" dvds like Netflix. They have like 70 titles of Vaquero style dvds. Buck, Bruce Sandifer, Richard Caldwell, and a bunch of others and documentries. I forgot to tell that to Evansk too, that way you don't get stuck with a dvd you paid a small fortune for and don't like.


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## Evansk (Dec 22, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Don't give up, it just sounds like it's going to be more trial and error rather than having a mentor guide you through. If you have any reined cowhorse trainers close that will help, that is as close to it as you may get. Also buy a membership to "Giddy Up Flix" I think it is like $11 a month and you "rent" dvds like Netflix. They have like 70 titles of Vaquero style dvds. Buck, Bruce Sandifer, Richard Caldwell, and a bunch of others and documentries. I forgot to tell that to Evansk too, that way you don't get stuck with a dvd you paid a small fortune for and don't like.


Good thing I'm subbed to this thread! I'll check out Giddy Up Flix. Sounds like a good deal for $11 a month!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Evansk said:


> Good thing I'm subbed to this thread! I'll check out Giddy Up Flix. Sounds like a good deal for $11 a month!


It's pretty cool, you can get anything from cowhorse training videos to yoga for riders to trick training. They even have all the PP, CA "super secret club" videos without having to join the "super secret club" if anyone is interested....


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Is this a good example of a bridle horse? Saw it while surfing YouTube and thought it was pretty impressive.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Not my taste personally, but I can certainly admire the effort to be light on the hands and have a horse that responds to the lightest cue.

That is the aim of true horsemanship, whether it be classical dressage based on the works of Pluvinel and de la Guerinere, or the vaqueros of California.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

equiniphile said:


> Is this a good example of a bridle horse? Saw it while surfing YouTube and thought it was pretty impressive.
> 
> Martin Black - The Bridle - YouTube


See to me, that is the way I would expect a good western horse to respond in a regular curb bit. 

Am I there myself? Not exactly, but I do think my Mustang is. He was a rope horse and all-around mountain trail horse and he was as light as butter when I got him. If I so much as flicked my wrist he would turn. It kind of led to a bit of confusion on his part I'm sure, because I am apparently not the rider his last owner was. But I'm sure that if a good western rider got on him he would be responding like butter again. He's kind of come down to my level. :shock:

But anyway, if no one said anything about spade bits or bridle horses or what-have-you, and I just watched the video without the sound, I would think that is the same stuff I see on RFDTV all the time. Reining and cowhorse stuff. (Which is actually what I think western riding SHOULD be, not all that western pleasure crud). I guess I am just trying to figure out what makes the spade bit so infatuating. I guess it's just a marker that you've arrived at a certain point in your horsemanship.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If you are curious about how the spade works in a horses mouth watch this.


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Can you have a light horse in a curb bit? the answer is absolutely. For me the big reason I want to try my hand at a spade (down the road when Im good enough) is because it is the road less traveled. It is a style of riding that is no longer practiced in this part of the country and is lossing popularity all over. The big reason is the misunderstanding and the time involved. It is just a personal choice to try my hand. i fgure if I can get my boys going in a spade there won't be much out there that I cant handle. I may get them going in a spade and noone around here even have a clue that it is a spade bit. they may just think wow that is a fancy cheek peice on that bit. but I will know.i guess I'm just hard headed and don't like going with the flow. i like doing things that not everyone else does. Hell, I still hunt with a flntlock rifle modeled from one from 1760's.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

It is the tradition that all western style of horsemanship has evolved from, not just buckaroos. It is was what the reined cow horse shows came from. But it kinda got lost for awhile other than cowboying on the desert. Martin Blacks video is a good example of a bridle horse, did you ever see him pull on that horse? That is when you know when you have gotten there. You have a horse so light, working cattle on a fast pace and you can stay out of his way and not pull on him. Like martin said, the spade is not a leverage bit, it is a signal bit. If you have to pull on it, then you ain't ready to ride in it, because your riding it like a leverage bit. Also it can be hard to train a horse like that just cowboying on him a day or two a week. For me sometimes I get wrapped up in getting my cattle moved that I forget about my horsemanship. It takes a hell of a hand to make a good horse and cowboy good. And Martin is a good cowboy, he's been there and done that. He worked on the Winecup for almost 20 years. And for me, someone saying that I cowboy good is the biggest compliment any one could give me. But its one of those things that don't get thrown out very often. So being able to train a nice bridle horse, being able to handle it in a cowboying situation and get the job done makes is part of being a good cowboy. It would be no different than someone wanting to compete in top level dressage I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kissmybarrelbutt (Mar 2, 2012)

Several people at my barn are training their horses how to carry them etc and we have one finished true bridle horse. I personally would never. My trainer said it takes about 6 yrs for her to have one completely trained. So it take me atleast 10.... Plus ya sure I could learn to ride in one,but I have no need to...


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