# Careless horse breeding.



## sorraiamustangs (Oct 8, 2010)

Scared, in the only home he’s ever known but feeling more lost than ever. He hasn’t seen anyone in days and was left alone with only a bucket of water and a patch of grass to feed from. He stands next to his best friend, whom is laying on the ground cold and dead. He slowly walks away silently asking “Where are you, I need your help.” This is the sad story of an abandoned horse. If he is found in time he will be sent to a rescue. A horse from the rescue will be sent to slaughter because the rescue is over filled. Just because someone decided that the horses that they were breeding were costing to much money. More than 90,000 horses are slaughtered each year across the world, says the USDA ( United States Department of Agriculture). People put up signs saying stop the slaughter, but is slaughter really the issue? We need to look to where it all starts. We need to put out laws that will stop careless horse breeding. 
One big issue is people who want to have a horse, so they buy one. A few months later they figure out that they can’t afford a horse and send it to a local horse rescue. This barely fills the rescues and it is okay. It is bad enough that an uneducated horse person puts a horse into a rescue. Then we have the bigger issue of when a person decides that they are going to breed their Quarter horse mare, a breed that is already over breed because everybody wants one. This mare has a baby and the people either decide to sell the baby or keep it, but most likely the mare is going to be bred again and again. Either the many people that they sell these babies to are uneducated people who think they want a horse and the baby ends up in a rescue. Or the people who bred the mare keep the babies and they slowly can’t afford all the horses, or they don’t have enough space to keep them in. Those horses end up going to rescues as well. Over filled rescues lead to horses going to slaughter. 
A very common issue with people that don’t want their horses is that they will abandon them. There are more than 1,600 horses abandoned each year. This issue also leads back to over breeding of horses. When people over breed horses they find out that they can’t afford them and will often abandon them. When horses are abandoned they are put into rescues. The rescues however are filling up to fast and can’t take any more horses. For example one horse rescue in Colorado, the Colorado Horse Rescue, says that they take in around 100-75 horses every year. This is just one of the very many horse rescues across America. Luckily some horses are saved from going to slaughter, for example my moms Quarter/Paint horse, Gus. He was a ranch pony that was used for barrel racing, reining, cattle ranching and trail riding. He broke his leg and they brought him to an auction in Kentucky. A person from the Hemphills in Vassalboro Maine, went to the auction and decided that Gus was one of the horses that they wanted. Now Gus lives at my house and we use him to work with little kids. This just shows that these horses can be rescued.
All these horses need is someone who understands what the problem is and is willing to help. So instead of breeding the horses over and over again, be smart. Go out and adopt a horse from a shelter. It doesn’t take much to lower the number. Over 80,000 horses will go to slaughter this year because of people who just don’t care. We could help them, so why don’t we?


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## sorraiamustangs (Oct 8, 2010)

It's a paper that I wrote in English class at school. I'm not saying that all horse breeding is bad but some people are careless about it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think it's ironic that your username has the word mustang in it and you are writing a paper about indiscriminate breeding. The U.S. Government is responsible for breeding thousands of horses every year that are practically given away to anybody with a horse trailer and a tall fence. The worst part is that they use MY tax dollars to fund it. What would happen to the auto industry if the government started building inferior cars but sold them at a loss on the open market. Then limited the places that cars could be sold. 

The average cost to keep a mustang is around 1200 dollars a year but they sell them for $125 when they can and when they can't they use tax money to keep them in long term holding for the rest of thier lives. It's not only a waste of tax dollars but it is fundamentally unfair and would probably be illegal if it happened in any other industry.


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## sorraiamustangs (Oct 8, 2010)

Well in case you didn't see the beginning of my name it says SORRAIA mustang. A Sorraia mustang is not bred or kept by the government. They are a very rare breed from Spain and there is very few in the U.S.A.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

My apologies. My comment still stands though.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

While I agree there are many many irresponsible breeders ones who breed grades with no purpose even registered horses with no purpose and so on. 

However I have found there are many many more irresponsible owners. Ones who tell themselves papers do not matter so loose their horses papers never get the horse put into their name then sell it again this time with out papers b/c they tell themselves that papers do not matter. Who in Gods green earth do you think responsible breeder track their horses? How do you think that they make sure their horses are doing well and can help if needed. This is what royally ticks me off about people especially the ones who think papers do not matter. Get it through your heads they do. In so many ways this is just one of them.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

sorraiamustangs said:


> Over 80,000 horses will go to slaughter this year because of people who just don’t care. We could help them, so why don’t we?


How could you (me, anyone) help them? Shoot irresponsible owners? If you have 3 horses and will take another 3 out of pity WITHOUT having resources to feed (and sometime train) them you will be as guilty and negligible (and by "you" I mean general "you", not anyone in this thread). 

I own 2 horses, both most probably would end up on meat truck if I wouldn't pull them out. I'm responsible enough to understand it's my limit and while I feel sorry for horses in slaughter I simply can't afford another one. So no, I can NOT help them (although I DO donate to the horse rescue nearby).


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

sorraiamustangs said:


> We could help them, so why don’t we?


Who is this 'we' of whom you speak?

Sorry, but I'm full up and can't afford to take on any more. Being responsible about what you can and can't do financially is important.

As Kitten stated, taking on more animals than you can financially support is completely irresponsible and only adds to the problem.

The rescues are full, horses are being turned out to fend for themselves, and those of us who are being responsible owners are finding it more and more expensive just to care for the ones we already have. 

No way am I going to jeopardize the animals already in my care to take on others.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

sorraiamustangs said:


> More than 90,000 horses are slaughtered each year across the world, says the USDA ( United States Department of Agriculture). Over 80,000 horses will go to slaughter this year because of people who just don’t care.


You may want to check your numbers, you are vastly underestimating the situation.

Many many more than 90,000 horses are slaughtered yearly world wide and many many more than 80,000 homes are needed and it has _nothing_ to do with people not caring. There are simply too many horses.


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## sorraiamustangs (Oct 8, 2010)

I'm sorry about the numbers I just realized that I made that mistake. I never said that everybody was irresponsible. I meant that people could go adopt horses instead of breeding there own. I also clearly said that in the paper. I am not talking to everybody on the Earth that owns a horse when I say that. My point is that people need to not carelessly breed horses. Again not everybody who owns a horse does it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The problem is that there are very very few horses out there in a rescue situation that would fit what I need and want. 

I am of the mind that it cost me no more money to feed my Dun It mare then it does to feed the puck down the street. Not saying that the puck down the street is not a good horse for what he is and does he just does not fit what I want and need so why should I take in one who does not fit what I need. I can breed for less then I can buy one for. So again that is why I personally breed. I have a good market for what I breed and they do not displace other horses.

It comes down to the people who breed b/c they want a baby or they want anouther horse like their mare. If breeding was only that simple. It is not.

My favorite is the people who say they want a prospect yet the mare they are using is not even very well trained or a lot of time even broke to ride. Heck there is your prospect. Train and ride and use the mare before you breed her.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

sorraiamustangs said:


> My point is that people need to not carelessly breed horses.


Thing is take a look at the breeding section of any forum. No one thinks that they are the ones being careless. Everyone thinks there mare is just the best mare in the world b/c she is nice and friendly and that makes they breeding quality. Well who cares. Horses should be nice and friendly. That for the most part should be a give. I would rather have a mare who is a bit harder but can get the job done and done well and pass that to her foals the a nice friendly horse.


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## sorraiamustangs (Oct 8, 2010)

I realize that you guys who commented and many others are taking care of your horses and that's good but there are some people who don't.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

There will always be people who do not care for their animals. If that was not the case I would would not have 9 foster dogs here right now with a list of dogs who need fosters before they are put down in a day. Out of the 12 dogs I have had here as fosters since Jan. 11 where not fixed when they came in. What does that tell you? Now granted 2 where 5 week old pups but even if you take those out of the equation. I am just one foster for one rescue.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

True, but you can't_ make_ people act responsibly. They're either responsible or they're not.

Everybody thinks someone _else_ is the problem, and not them. I say if you're breeding with no clear idea other than, 'I want a piece of my mare', 'I think my mare would be a great momma', or 'I want a kyoot foal to raise and lurve', then you need to stay out of the breeding game. 

If you can't tell me about bloodlines and _why_ you think your mare will nick well with a particular stallion, you need to stay out of the breeding game.

If you're breeding because the stallion is the current horse du jour or a purty color, you need to stay out of the breeding game.

If you're breeding because the stallion owner down the road is giving you a breeding to your mare for free, you need to stay out of the breeding game.

If you're breeding a done-nothing mare who hasn't proven her worth other than popping out illbred, fugly babies, you need to stay out of the breeding game.

Nrh knows what he's doing and why, and I have no quarrel with_ responsible_ breeders. It's the types I've mentioned above that shouldn't be breeding but are the first to scream about, 'all the poor horsies going to slaughter, ZOMG!'


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Personally, I want to buy a registered horse with lines I know whose potential I can judge by that. I personally don't want to adopt a horse from a rescue whose history I don't have the foggiest clue about... Maybe when I'm rich and have room for a rescue or two, but other than that, I am in the market for a different type of horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

I personally have just entered the breeding world, why, because it's where I belong. I've worked in numerous stables, ridden, showed, and just enjoyed horses. Breeding however, is my niche in the horse world. I love handling stallions, fussing over babies, picking out mares and finding just that perfect nick... you hope. My first baby was just born and I have never felt more tired or satisfied in my life. 
Why the recap... because I get so tired of hearing of people claiming of all the horses going to slaughter and seem to believe the cure is to end ALL horse breeding. The problem is that if the responsible breeders did do so (and I've seen some who have) that just leaves the irresponsible breeders. Then you end up with a worse problem. What is the solution? I wish I knew. It's not to ban all breeding... that means in 30yrs horses would be nothing more than a memory. Stricter rules on breeders... sounds like a good idea, but then you get the greedy and power hungry who twists things and make it impossible for the average person to make a living. Just ask the dairy farmers. 
Responsible breeding is by no means a money maker. Those of us in it for the love of horses are not expecting to get rich anytime soon. We do it becasue we love horses and want to do our part in perfecting our chosen breed. The irresponsible ones are the ones who hope to make a quick buck and so breed whatever they can lay thier hands on and cut corners. 
I think the best solution right now is for responsible breeders to do what they are doing... educate those around them. I have a wonderful mentor who has been breeding for 15yrs and has a great reputation and the horses to prove it. 
Trying to force laws or take away rights will only end up creating bigger problems.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The thing is if you are breeding responsible and well then at the very least you should brake even. I have been breeding raising and showing horses for over 15 years and this is the first year I will take any money out of pocket to do anything with the horses. By this time next year that money will be back into my pocket along with more. Some will go back into the horses and the rest into my pocket for next time.

I really do not like it when people say you can not make money breeding and they do it for the love of the horse and to improve on the breed. Fact is very very few breeders truly improve a breed. They may improve on a given horse or line or even maybe a discipline but rarely the breed. Also if you are improving from one generation to the next then you should be making money as people are going to want the horses you are breeding.


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> The thing is if you are breeding responsible and well then at the very least you should brake even. I have been breeding raising and showing horses for over 15 years and this is the first year I will take any money out of pocket to do anything with the horses. By this time next year that money will be back into my pocket along with more. Some will go back into the horses and the rest into my pocket for next time.
> 
> I really do not like it when people say you can not make money breeding and they do it for the love of the horse and to improve on the breed. Fact is very very few breeders truly improve a breed. They may improve on a given horse or line or even maybe a discipline but rarely the breed. Also if you are improving from one generation to the next then you should be making money as people are going to want the horses you are breeding.


Please let me clarify. I meant that you would not make a living only breeding horses. I do hope to at least break even and even at times to make a little extra to help improve the farm. The only horse breeders I've seen make good money are also a show barn or a horse mill. 
I know a lot of breeders do not improve the breed as they are hoping to sell and breed what is desired at the time. 
Personally, I have a picture in my head of what I am aiming to achieve. I will be keeping fillies that I feel bring me a step closer and selling those who do not fit my personal ideal. I would hope to sell the others as I do intend on breeding good horses. What I do not expect is to ever make a fortune doing this and believe you have to love what you're doing to keep doing it for a lifetime... as I plan to do. Now I must go back to the barn and enjoy being eaten alive by mosquitos as my mare is close to foaling. There I will be able to lay on my uncomfortable cot in my clothes and try to ignore the neighbors barking dog and get some sleep. Considering that every odd sound coming from my mare will jolt me awake I will be waking up in the morning tired and bleary eyed. Unless of course a baby shows up in which I will run on adrenaline for the next 3hrs and crash for a couple more. Then up to care for the rest of the horses, work with the filly already on the ground, mow the other two fields that need mowing, fix the fencing in the big field where I'll be placing the two mares and foals, head to town to get more diesel for the tractor and lime for the stalls. In between there I will make lunch and supper for my husband and maybe get some laundry done... maybe. Nighttime will be decending and time to feed once more, get the mares and babies back inside and start the routine all over again. Isn't this just fun . That's what I mean by loving it. And even if I could afford it I wouldn't hire a night watchman as that newborn life on the ground is what makes every minute of my exhausting life worth it. Hopefully I'll get wiser as time goes on and learn how to support my business with proper breeding practices that improve while at the same time not compromising my horse's health and welfare.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

It astounds me to see the astronomical amount of horses that are bred for racing each year. As in, these horses are bred for a purpose... but there are ALWAYS duds in the horse racing industry... every OTTB I've owned has been a "dud" and I've owned four. Mind you, they made some wonderful pleasure horses, but they were discarded by the industry and then the industry turned around and bred some more to take their places. Every year there are brand spankin' new three year olds competing in the KY Derby, and next year a new batch will be in to replace them, and the year after that, and after that... it really adds up. It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say. Like... we have TONS of racehorses right now, but the horses that will be running in the 140th KYD still haven't even been born yet.

I guess that the fact racehorses have such a short career is a big part of it. Between 2 and 5 is typical, right? Give or take? And that's providing it doesn't suffer any injuries. Then, the next 20 years are usually unclear. I'm sleepy, but hopefully you get my point. =/


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

Equilove said:


> It astounds me to see the astronomical amount of horses that are bred for racing each year. As in, these horses are bred for a purpose... but there are ALWAYS duds in the horse racing industry... every OTTB I've owned has been a "dud" and I've owned four. Mind you, they made some wonderful pleasure horses, but they were discarded by the industry and then the industry turned around and bred some more to take their places. Every year there are brand spankin' new three year olds competing in the KY Derby, and next year a new batch will be in to replace them, and the year after that, and after that... it really adds up. It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say. Like... we have TONS of racehorses right now, but the horses that will be running in the 140th KYD still haven't even been born yet.
> 
> I guess that the fact racehorses have such a short career is a big part of it. Between 2 and 5 is typical, right? Give or take? And that's providing it doesn't suffer any injuries. Then, the next 20 years are usually unclear. I'm sleepy, but hopefully you get my point. =/


Agreed!!
I have an idea maybe if everyone would just stop breeding all & any kind of horse thats encluding the so called pure blood reg. horses, the horse world would even out. lol! 
just my thought.


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## Can He Star (Mar 9, 2011)

I have a x racer and I love him to death. Just cause he could race doesn't mean he is useless I jump, dressage and hopefully future event him. He has the sweetest nature and he's my baby. The thoughbred industry is the problem. It's mostly x racers that end up qt the doggers


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I agree with the TB racing world. Definite overbreeding with no regards to consequence.

Ban breeding altogether? Oh the havoc that would create. Sure you could track & stop those breeding legitimate pure bred horses with a purpose but that wouldn't stop the backyard mutt breeders of the world. Where would that leave the horse world? Not evened out but more full of grade, unwanted horses with no purpose. Bet they would be affordable though and everyone could rescue an "omgz a perty poneh, let's buy it for $100 and train it ourselves" 

I do agree that responsible breeding needs to be a goal for the horse world in general, but the ban ALL statement is naive. 

My family has been breeding responsibly for over 50 years. Foals are usually sold before they hit the ground to well screened buyers. We've NEVER sent a single horse to auction or put them in a situation set up for failure. In fact I know where 90% of them are right this minute and just this week visited a 26 year old mare that was from my first personal horse. Guess what? Same owner she was sold to 25 years ago. She was giving a ride to the 4th kid in that family to ride & show her. 

Sorry for the bit of a rant but to those who've been in the horse game their entire lives that do so responsibly & with purpose should not be penalized for the schmucks out there trying to make a quick buck on garbage horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

vikki92 said:


> Agreed!!
> I have an idea maybe if everyone would just stop breeding all & any kind of horse thats encluding the so called pure blood reg. horses, the horse world would even out. lol!
> just my thought.


Even out?

How would it even out?

Would the broodmares suddenly have some other use? Will people keep horses with out a use (said already mentioned brood mares)?

How long do you propose we not breed for to make things all even?


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

Sorry but it always bothers me when the first breed people attack for overbreeding is the TB. I'm not saying there isn't a problem but if you start looking at the numbers the AQHA has nearly triple the registered horses in a year. Are you telling me that all theses QH are finding wonderful homes? Then there is the APHA and AHR. There are a lot of different big time registeries out there... its not just the racing industy... they simply get more of the publicity. I personally love racing and know a lot of TB's enjoy racing, I'd like to see some serious changes but I don't want to see it eliminated all together. Any more then I'd like to see QH, Paints, Arabs, Appaloosas, or any horse breed vanish. It's the individuals that need to be educated and the registries that need to help make changes to lessen the amount of "cull" horses. Unfortunatly, as with just about anything these days, as long as there is money involved, true reform is left by the wayside. Which them leaves room for the extremists who want to eliminate all breeding and such and will probably end up making ridiculous laws which cripple the breeders trying to do thier best.

Okay, rant over.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Equilove said:


> It astounds me to see the astronomical amount of horses that are bred for racing each year. As in, these horses are bred for a purpose... but there are ALWAYS duds in the horse racing industry... every OTTB I've owned has been a "dud" and I've owned four. Mind you, they made some wonderful pleasure horses, but they were discarded by the industry and then the industry turned around and bred some more to take their places. Every year there are brand spankin' new three year olds competing in the KY Derby, and next year a new batch will be in to replace them, and the year after that, and after that... it really adds up. It's hard to explain what I'm trying to say. Like... we have TONS of racehorses right now, but the horses that will be running in the 140th KYD still haven't even been born yet.
> 
> I guess that the fact racehorses have such a short career is a big part of it. Between 2 and 5 is typical, right? Give or take? And that's providing it doesn't suffer any injuries. Then, the next 20 years are usually unclear. I'm sleepy, but hopefully you get my point. =/



There are several reasons why I think TB have such short carriers. One is simply b/c of the way they are started. Then the big money is in the aged events so for the most part past 3 maybe 4yo year there are only a few big money events. The ones who do well in these events are put into the breed shed as they are more valuable there then on the track.

Then and I think this is the big thing. There is no non pro level. There is no way for the horses owners and youth to take those horses who may not be at the top and race them. It is just not possible the way the race industry is set up.

Where as every single on of my horses can and have been shown in the non pro levels after they where done with the trainers. This is true of most other events. They have a carrier with in their disciple past the aged events with out needing to be retrained.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

vikki92 said:


> Agreed!!
> I have an idea maybe if everyone would just stop breeding all & any kind of horse thats encluding the so called pure blood reg. horses, the horse world would even out. lol!
> just my thought.



Why do you think stopping breeding would be the answer? If you did that not only would you have no horses after a short time but also the loss of a lot of jobs along the way.

People who thing stopping breeding is the answer have not really giving it much thought past "oh we must stop"


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Crossover said:


> Sorry but it always bothers me when the first breed people attack for overbreeding is the TB. I'm not saying there isn't a problem but if you start looking at the numbers the AQHA has nearly triple the registered horses in a year. Are you telling me that all theses QH are finding wonderful homes? Then there is the APHA and AHR. There are a lot of different big time registeries out there... its not just the racing industy... they simply get more of the publicity. I personally love racing and know a lot of TB's enjoy racing, I'd like to see some serious changes but I don't want to see it eliminated all together. Any more then I'd like to see QH, Paints, Arabs, Appaloosas, or any horse breed vanish. It's the individuals that need to be educated and the registries that need to help make changes to lessen the amount of "cull" horses. Unfortunatly, as with just about anything these days, as long as there is money involved, true reform is left by the wayside. Which them leaves room for the extremists who want to eliminate all breeding and such and will probably end up making ridiculous laws which cripple the breeders trying to do thier best.
> 
> Okay, rant over.


It was one just one example. And trying to remedy with "Well, every other breed is overbred too!" doesn't make me think any differently what I said about the racing industry... Like I said, I've owned several ex-racers and I am a thoroughbred girl at heart. Before I owned Savanna, the only other breed of horse I owned was full or part thoroughbred. So I have no ill feelings toward TBs. I wasn't "attacking" them either.

Also, someone is more likely to buy a retired western QH for their kids than a retired racing TB. So pitted against those odds, I'd say quarter horses have a better chance at finding homes at all, and there's no statistic that can determine whether any home is a good, or bad home.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Even out?
> 
> How would it even out?
> 
> ...


Haha. I don't think there's a way to "stop" any of this except to stop the sports or euthanize horses that don't succeed. Which I don't think will happen...


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Equilove said:


> Haha. I don't think there's a way to "stop" any of this except to stop the sports or euthanize horses that don't succeed. Which I don't think will happen...


Slaughter works well.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Slaughter works well.


OMG, you had to go* there?! :rofl:
*


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Oops, sorry. It just seemed like a logical answer. I know logic is frowned upon.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Oops, sorry. It just seemed like a logical answer. I know logic is frowned upon.


Yes, yes it is! You stop that_ right now!!!_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

*Bows head in shame.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

How about allowing horses to be slaughtered that are too old or crippled or crazy or just unwanted without shipping them to another country. At one time not that long ago there was much more money to be made in the horse industry because people didn't have to hang on to thier unwanted horses forever. At one time there was no such thing as a horse rescue because EVERY horse had a fairly significant value. People didn't leave horses to starve in a field because they could haul them to a sale and get a check for a few hundred dollars. If you haul a horse to a sale now (and I have) you don't get enough to fill your tank with gas.

That's the problem with passing laws based on emotion instead of listening to the people that it will effect and using sound arguments. The problem is not that there should be more regulation of breeding. The problem is that there is no outlet for horses that are unwanted.

ETA Always Behind beat me too it! I guess I'm REALLY behind.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Logic is refreshing AB 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

You just typed more than I did, Kevin. That takes longer.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Crossover said:


> I'm not saying there isn't a problem but if you start looking at the numbers the AQHA has nearly triple the registered horses in a year.


Out of curiosity, is this really true? How would you go about finding actual numbers for this and if you can, could you post some links to the stats? I am genuinely curious.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> How about allowing horses to be slaughtered that are too old or crippled or crazy or just unwanted without shipping them to another country. At one time not that long ago there was much more money to be made in the horse industry because people didn't have to hang on to thier unwanted horses forever. At one time there was no such thing as a horse rescue because EVERY horse had a fairly significant value. People didn't leave horses to starve in a field because they could haul them to a sale and get a check for a few hundred dollars. If you haul a horse to a sale now (and I have) you don't get enough to fill your tank with gas.
> 
> That's the problem with passing laws based on emotion instead of listening to the people that it will effect and using sound arguments. The problem is not that there should be more regulation of breeding. The problem is that there is no outlet for horses that are unwanted.
> 
> ETA Always Behind beat me too it! I guess I'm REALLY behind.


Well said!  :clap:


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Then and I think this is the big thing. There is no non pro level. There is no way for the horses owners and youth to take those horses who may not be at the top and race them. It is just not possible the way the race industry is set up.


I agree with you completely here. There use to be country fairs and localized racing circuts. You might not have a triple crown winner but you could go and win some nice money. The big problem is you have small purses but the owners still have to put in a lot of cash to care for them on the track. A non pro division in racing just may benefit the racing industry.


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

sarahver said:


> Out of curiosity, is this really true? How would you go about finding actual numbers for this and if you can, could you post some links to the stats? I am genuinely curious.


 
Actually I first read an article in a horse magazine, I believe horse illistrated just quoting the numbers in the various registries for the year. It wasn't for any purpose like this. Then I've been googling around trying to find more facts. I've been trying to find the figures at the various registry websites but can't seem to find the right area. This link will get you to the Arab stats Arabian Horse DataSource - - Horse, Arabian, Data, Information, Registry, Pedigree, Sire, Dam, Foal, Parent, Progeny, Sire, Dam, Generation, Markings, Child, Race, Win, Place, Show, Accomplishment, Show, Travel, Import, Export, Owner, Breeder, Farm, 
I haven't put a lot of time in this yet... just may do so in the future if I find the time. My hope is someone else already has a site.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Crossover said:


> Actually I first read an article in a horse magazine, I believe horse illistrated just quoting the numbers in the various registries for the year. It wasn't for any purpose like this. Then I've been googling around trying to find more facts. I've been trying to find the figures at the various registry websites but can't seem to find the right area. This link will get you to the Arab stats Arabian Horse DataSource - - Horse, Arabian, Data, Information, Registry, Pedigree, Sire, Dam, Foal, Parent, Progeny, Sire, Dam, Generation, Markings, Child, Race, Win, Place, Show, Accomplishment, Show, Travel, Import, Export, Owner, Breeder, Farm,
> I haven't put a lot of time in this yet... just may do so in the future if I find the time. My hope is someone else already has a site.


 
Fair enough! I don't really know anything about the QH industry which is why I was asking :wink:

I do know a bit about the TB and racing industry, having been involved with it both here in Texas and also in Melbourne over a period of years. I am one of those people that you speak of who always blames the TB racing industry for the overproduction of horses :rofl:

So I guess here are some stats from the TB side that I can share with you, from the Jockey Club website:

==The Jockey Club--Dedicated to the Improvement of Thoroughbred Breeding and Racing Since 1894

US alone in 2008 - 32,169 foals registered

US alone in 2009 - 28,721 foals registered (reduction due to the recession)

No stats for 2010 that I could find.

Again, genuine question here, would 100,000 registered quarter horses be bred _each year_ in the US? Seems like many more than I ever would have guessed!

ETA: Nrhareiner you make a great point about having a non-pro racing circuit.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Sorry to double post but Crossover you were 100% correct, there were more than three times the number of QH's bred in 2009 than TB's!

According to the AQHA there were 93,835 QH's registered in the US in 2009:

http://siteexec.aqha.com/association/pdf/09_annual_report/09AR_Horse_Statistics.pdf

Well there you go, that is my new fact for the day!

Before anyone gets their knickers in a knot I am not about to start pointing the finger at QH breeders either :wink:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

That is just it. Lets say you have 2 owners. Say one owns a TB and races. Then the other say me. I own my QH and show NRHA Reining. Now lest say for the first 4 years we use a trainer who trains and shows our horses. Now lets say both horses are geldings so we can take out the breeding aspect for the time being.

Now once they are done being trained and shown by the trainer. Now what. What can the owner of the TB do? What use does the TB have for THAT Owner? Can the owner clime on and ride and race or even show that horse. I am not talking about a year latter with more training. I am talking right now or even as he is still being raced. What can that owner do with that horse? Now lets take my horse. The trainer is showing the horse in the Open division yet I can take that same horse and show him that same day in the non pro ranks with no more training. I can also take that horse and with little to no more training show NRCHA AQHA and in several other events.

Now lets say you want to sell these 2 horses. Which horse so you think will have a better resale value? Which will be easier to sell? Nothing against TB. They are great horses. It is just the nature of the industry and the discipline in which they show. One is very very highly regulated and requires a certain type of person to train and show the horse (TB small jockeys) and then you have the QH who anyone can train and show. Might not always win but it can and is done.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> That is just it. Lets say you have 2 owners. Say one owns a TB and races. Then the other say me. I own my QH and show NRHA Reining. Now lest say for the first 4 years we use a trainer who trains and shows our horses. Now lets say both horses are geldings so we can take out the breeding aspect for the time being.
> 
> Now once they are done being trained and shown by the trainer. Now what. What can the owner of the TB do? What use does the TB have for THAT Owner? Can the owner clime on and ride and race or even show that horse. I am not talking about a year latter with more training. I am talking right now or even as he is still being raced. What can that owner do with that horse? Now lets take my horse. The trainer is showing the horse in the Open division yet I can take that same horse and show him that same day in the non pro ranks with no more training. I can also take that horse and with little to no more training show NRCHA AQHA and in several other events.
> 
> Now lets say you want to sell these 2 horses. Which horse so you think will have a better resale value? Which will be easier to sell? Nothing against TB. They are great horses. It is just the nature of the industry and the discipline in which they show. One is very very highly regulated and requires a certain type of person to train and show the horse (TB small jockeys) and then you have the QH who anyone can train and show. Might not always win but it can and is done.


I completely agree with everything you said actually 

There is more of a market here in the US for QH's after they have finished their track/show life and QH's seem to be able to make that transition a little easier. Also, being able to compete pro and non-pro makes a huge difference since no additional training has to be done as you say.

Don't get me wrong, I love TB's - always have and always will. Every horse I have owned (bar one) was an OTTB and on top of that I have trained many many others for other people, because, well, sometimes it takes OTTB's a while to adjust from their highly specialised track life to a more multidimensional life in their new home. Not all first time OTTB owners are prepared for that and some run into troubles as a result.

The ones that go straight from the track and are able to compete in another dicipline within a short amount of time are few and far between.

The rest of them take time. Not everyone wants to deal with that unfortunately.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Also those numbers are very scewed. Think about it. Jockey club only tracks and register full TB. Where AQHA tracks AQHA and Jockey club crosses. So if you factor in the TB being bred to AQHA horses and then the TB being bred to APHA horses and TB being bred to Arab horses and TB being bred to WB horses. I would venture to say that the numbers are much closer then you would think.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Also those numbers are very scewed. Think about it. Jockey club only tracks and register full TB. Where AQHA tracks AQHA and Jockey club crosses. So if you factor in the TB being bred to AQHA horses and then the TB being bred to APHA horses and TB being bred to Arab horses and TB being bred to WB horses. I would venture to say that the numbers are much closer then you would think.


Like I said earlier - I have literally NO idea about the QH industry, I just posted the figures I found, wasn't trying to make a point even though it may have come across that way :wink: I was not aware that those numbers include QH/TB crosses as well.

As I mentioned, I am usually _firmly_ on the 'blame the TB racing industry for everything' camp ha ha.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I do not think it is one camp or the other. Unless you are talking about people breeding horses that should never be bred. Now that is the camp I am parking it on.


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## SissyGoBob (Oct 17, 2010)

wow people get off her back. Jeeezzzuuuuusssss


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Even out?
> 
> How would it even out?
> 
> ...


Yes I think Broodmares have other uses. 
as does jumpers, ropers,cutting horses, race horses, etc. all those (I think) are just titles, retired race horses can be trained to jump, rope cattle etc. So yes I think brood mares would have other uses.
Whats the purpose of breeding? when theres so many horses out there that need homes?
Just my thought.


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## vikki92 (Dec 18, 2010)

Sorry to double posts, but whatever happend to just trial riding & haveing a horse to just love & care for? 
None of my horses are show horses but they all make great friends, & riding partners.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

vikki92 said:


> Sorry to double posts, but whatever happend to just trial riding & haveing a horse to just love & care for?
> None of my horses are show horses but they all make great friends, & riding partners.



I can say the exact same thing about my show horses. They are great friends and riding partners. Thing is that they earn their keep. The horses I breed are very high quality and bring good money even in today's horse market they still sell for a very good profit.

You can do it all if you do it correctly. My broodmares had very good successful show carries. Now they are in the second carrier which is making the next generation of great horses who will go on to earn their keep.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

vikki92 said:


> Whats the purpose of breeding? when theres so many horses out there that need homes?


_Because not everyone wants the grade horse with crappy conformation that Joe Smith bred to Jack B. Nimble's stud down the road._

_Yes, there are good grade horses out there that are perfectly suitable for trail riding, but not everyone is happy putzing down a trail everyday._

_I would much rather purchase something of quality that was bred for the discipline that I want to do. For NRHAreiner...that is high quality quarter horses. For me, that eventual purchase is most likely going to be a warmblood type horse that is fairly well schooled, so again, a high quality horse that has had money invested into it since birth...not just an oops! horse._


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## SissyGoBob (Oct 17, 2010)

VelvetsAB said:


> _Because not everyone wants the grade horse with crappy conformation that Joe Smith bred to Jack B. Nimble's stud down the road._
> 
> _Yes, there are good grade horses out there that are perfectly suitable for trail riding, but not everyone is happy putzing down a trail everyday._
> 
> _I would much rather purchase something of quality that was bred for the discipline that I want to do. For NRHAreiner...that is high quality quarter horses. For me, that eventual purchase is most likely going to be a warmblood type horse that is fairly well schooled, so again, a high quality horse that has had money invested into it since birth...not just an oops! horse._


Just sayin, but I think her point is for Joe Smith and Jack B. Nimble to not breed their horses.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

I think the cause of a lot of it is people with nobody-studs that they found at an auction trying to make a buck and offer it for stud, fairly cheap. I know a girl - she's only about 18, but she has access to all the horses in the world - and she bought a sorrel mini stud from an auction. His stud fee on Horseville was $50. His credentials? He can rear on command. He is not registered. She has an unregistered quarter horse mare with a fugly hind end that she's bred twice now to a palomino stud she bought from a friend. She also offers this stud for breeding at $200. She has another quarter horse mare, this one is actually decent looking, that she bred as well to an outside stud. All these babies are offered for sale as soon as they are up and walking and are cute enough for photos. I assume she waits till they're weaned, but who knows. I remember looking on their website and seeing several colts and fillies, barely weanlings, offered at $150-$300 each. All of them were bred on-site. What we have here is a bunch of hillbillies fulfilling a hobby.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Now now, slaughter employees have to feed their families to! :lol:

I already did my part in owning two unregistered animals that would have otherwise gone for slaughter. And curse my lousy sentiment for doing so. My Arab will have leg problems for the rest of her life due to wonky conformation and bad farrier work. My Paint has a locking stifle, she's tied up on me, she's cow hocked beyond belief, she has a screw loose in her head that makes her blow anytime she's pushed.

For all intents and purposes, they SHOULD have gone to slaughter. We don't need more horses like them. I love them dearly, but that changes nothing. Because what's going to happen? Someday down the rode, I will finish Jynxy's training and I will sell her to a family who loves her. And eventually, that kid is going to age and go "ZOMFG, I WANT KYOOT BABIES" and start breeding from a mare who is not only unregistered, but is also VERY likely to carry the frame gene.

Sometimes it really is best to just let the "ugly" ones go to slaughter and stop that line from continuing.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Now now, slaughter employees have to feed their families to! :lol:
> 
> I already did my part in owning two unregistered animals that would have otherwise gone for slaughter. And curse my lousy sentiment for doing so. My Arab will have leg problems for the rest of her life due to wonky conformation and bad farrier work. My Paint has a locking stifle, she's tied up on me, she's cow hocked beyond belief, she has a screw loose in her head that makes her blow anytime she's pushed.
> 
> ...


I can only think of one instance that I felt we'd "Rescued" a horse from slaughtered. A little paint gelding with three moles on his side was sold at auction because surgery would have been required to remove the moles... we only knew that because the person selling him was a friend of the owner of the stable I worked at, who bought him and used him for trails after she had the relatively inexpensive surgery on his side. He was a cute little gelding. They called him Joe :lol: In another instance, a "green" (at the time) friend of mine "rescued" a bay thoroughbred gelding out of a slaughter pen, and this horse was so damned aggressive on the ground I was afraid to go near him. He was alright in the saddle, if you could manage to get there. I rode him myself once... but once you got off of him and unsaddled him, he would tend to pull or charge you. He was sent right back to the auction 2 months later, his fate probably sealed back in the slaughter pen. This is after nearly taking off his owner's hand. The horse had mental problems.

I heard about a "slaughter buyer" (I guess that's what you call them?) that buys horses for a mexican slaughter house, but takes them to a facility where high school rodeo kids saddle the sound ones and test them to see if they're decent riding horses, or if they have potential, something like that. The ones that appear to be in good physical in mental health are offered for sale. The others are sent to Mexico. I am going to try and find that snippet and post it. It's really interesting.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

To be honest, it wasn't written all that well. I think you'd be taken more seriously and command a lot more respect if you made it more mature and armed yourself with actual sources, hard facts, etc. Just from the report, it kind of sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. The content could pack a lot more punch, and I would take the time to organize the actual structure of it. Make your paragraphs neater and correct the punctuation and whatnot. Sorry for the picky-ness (I'm a grammar Nazi, I admit) but the way you write makes a big difference, especially when you're trying to persuade people to see things your way or compel them to take action.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

vikki92 said:


> Whats the purpose of breeding? when theres so many horses out there that need homes?





VelvetsAB said:


> _Because not everyone wants the grade horse with crappy conformation that Joe Smith bred to Jack B. Nimble's stud down the road._
> 
> <snip>
> 
> _I would much rather purchase something of quality that was bred for the discipline that I want to do. For NRHAreiner...that is high quality quarter horses. For me, that eventual purchase is most likely going to be a warmblood type horse that is fairly well schooled, so again, a high quality horse that has had money invested into it since birth...not just an oops! horse._





SissyGoBob said:


> Just sayin, but I think her point is for Joe Smith and Jack B. Nimble to not breed their horses.


_OK...lets try this again. The purpose of breeding is because I DON'T want the horse that Joe Smith and Jack B. Nimble bred. Really, that horse is most likely a piece of crap (for our purposes here) that SHOULD NOT have been bred. _

_I want a well bred, well conformed, money invested into horse, which means that horse still has to be bred somewhere. It just won't happen to come from Stupidbreederton, but from Wellthoughtout City._

_Just because there are horses out there that "need" homes does not mean I have to purchase it. To me, it seems like most of the horses that end up in the kill pen (and I do realize that some horses should not be there, but they are a minority) are there for a reason, such as: _

_-Poor conformation. _
_-A screw loose (thanks MM!)_
_-Old_
_-Bad feet_
_-Poor training from a know-it-all who messed them up, and now aren't worth anything_

_Why would I want to buy any of those when I could buy a perfectly sound, sane, well trained horse out there? It may be more money, but thats the investment I want to make._

_You go right on ahead and save all the pwetty pohneez you want. I will stick to breeding something worth while that will have a good future._

_Get what I mean?_


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## munschk (Mar 11, 2008)

Unfortunately, there will always be too many horses than there are homes for them - same for dogs, cats etc. The problem with horses, or some of the problems are, they're expensive to care for, can be dangerous, the females can't be spayed (well they can but for all intents and purposes I'll say they can't) and many of the males aren't gelded (talking about those with poor conformation) which gives backyard breeders ample opportunity to breed 'pweetty babies'.

Fact is, there will ALWAYS be backyard breeders, same with all companion species.

So what can you do about?

One thing is, as sad as it is, to realise that slaughter/euthanasia is always going to be there. If any laws are to be made, it should be towards improving the livelihood/care of horses going to slaughter and enforce those laws. Because those are the ones that ultimately would make a difference. Its a sad fact but its a fact. 

There is always going to be a surplus of horses, in all breeds and all industries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

There will always be some SOB carelessly breeding until nurse mare farming is stopped. Hugo, the invisible rescue horse (I can't wait for him to get down here!) is a case in point. The sole reason for his existence was to get his dam ready to nurse some racetrack thoroughbred. He was a throw away from the get-go. 

I got a great horse out of it but I have to wonder how many abused or neglected animals result from this gentleman's technique.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

vikki92 said:


> Yes I think Broodmares have other uses.
> as does jumpers, ropers,cutting horses, race horses, etc. all those (I think) are just titles, retired race horses can be trained to jump, rope cattle etc. So yes I think brood mares would have other uses.
> Whats the purpose of breeding? when theres so many horses out there that need homes?
> Just my thought.


And what if the horses that are out there, available (those that would be going to slaughter) do not fit the bill for what one wants to do with a horse?

Kind of like if the shelter only offered one kind of dog, you had no choice, you took the three legged blind dog or no dog at all. Too bad that you wanted to do agility, this is the only type of dog you are allowed to have because someone decided that no one should be able to breed anymore.


And have you ever thought about the fact that most retired horses are retired for a reason?
Not too many that are retired even though they are sound in mind and body with the talent to be a jumper just no one took the time to turn them into it.





vikki92 said:


> Sorry to double posts, but whatever happend to just trial riding & haveing a horse to just love & care for?
> None of my horses are show horses but they all make great friends, & riding partners.


That is fine for you. Other people want to do other things with their horses.


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## sorraiamustangs (Oct 8, 2010)

I don't think we should stop breeding, but maybe making people pay to breed a horse. If we put the same laws on horse breeding as there is on dog breeding it night help a little.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

sorraiamustangs said:


> If we put the same laws on horse breeding as there is on dog breeding it night help a little.


Hu? Laws on dog breeding?


No idea what laws on dog breeding you are talking about.


And really, fines on breeding will only make the honest people pay more money. Back yard breeders will never pay and keep producing crap.


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## sorraiamustangs (Oct 8, 2010)

Jessabel said:


> To be honest, it wasn't written all that well. I think you'd be taken more seriously and command a lot more respect if you made it more mature and armed yourself with actual sources, hard facts, etc. Just from the report, it kind of sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. The content could pack a lot more punch, and I would take the time to organize the actual structure of it. Make your paragraphs neater and correct the punctuation and whatnot. Sorry for the picky-ness (I'm a grammar Nazi, I admit) but the way you write makes a big difference, especially when you're trying to persuade people to see things your way or compel them to take action.



I'm sorry for the bad grammar and everything else, I'm only a 14 year old girl and have had teachers revise it since I put it up.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Hu? Laws on dog breeding?
> 
> 
> No idea what laws on dog breeding you are talking about.
> ...


There is no law in the USA about dog breeding. You can breed any dog you like. AKC papers mean nothing, it just means the dog is purebred.

BUT! In Germany they have the SV(German Registry) where the dog(German Shepherds I am talking about here) need to have hip scores and a Sch 1 in order to be bred.

Are there things like that for horses??


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

sorraiamustangs said:


> I don't think we should stop breeding, but maybe making people pay to breed a horse. If we put the same laws on horse breeding as there is on dog breeding it night help a little.


_Guess what? People who are breeding registerable horses are already paying. Breeding fees. Mare care. Registration fees. DNA verifying._

_People breeding crap don't care, so I bet they wouldn't care about paying a fee for breeding._

_The only laws that I know of about dogs are ones that are to keep your dog leashed according to your particular cities by-laws and laws about breed restrictions. Some cities do not allow certain dog breeds to live in their city, or if they do, then they must be leashed and muzzeled at all times out in public. But both of those are city government laws, and vary city to city....and not put in place by the guys in the House of Commons (Canada) or the Senate._




Alwaysbehind said:


> And really, fines on breeding will only make the honest people pay more money. Back yard breeders will never pay and keep producing crap.


_Exactly. If I am already paying for a good horse, now the price is going to go up more, because of all the extra's that the breeder had to pay._


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

No matter what anyone does people will continue to breed carelessly.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Lets see.

Stud fee
Chut fee
Fed ex charge
Vet charges (depending on how much of the work you can do your self)
DNA Typing
DNA Parentage verification.
Registration 
Insentive fund nomination
NRHA Performance license
NRHA Futurity Nomination
NRBC Nomination

Should I go on?


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## Crossover (Sep 18, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Lets see.
> 
> Stud fee
> Chut fee
> ...


Don't forget extra feed, pnumebort shots, shots for the foal, ect... Responsible breeders already pay for thier foals. Extra fees would just drive the responsible breeders out of business or cause them to put less into thier care. 
I'm against any regulation not because I don't care for the horses but because its the true breeders that end up suffering in the end.


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