# Show Horse Abuse



## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

My problem with showing is that it actually encourages the breeding of unhealthy animals. Here is what I wrote about it elsewhere:

Unnatural conformation and movement are what all showing eventually leads to (when I say showing, I mean disciplines in which horses are judged on their movement/appearance alone). See, riding a horse with naturally good gaits and carriage is easy. The whole point of competition is to prove you're better than everyone else, and the only way to do that is to make your horse do something UNUSUAL. Something they would not do if you the (supposedly) fabulous rider/trainer weren't there to teach them. Something that will make you stand out as "better" than natural to the judge. After all, after generations of selective breeding, many horses have decent natural gaits - if there are 10 such horses in the ring, how does the judge pick a winner? He/she looks for something DIFFERENT. If the horse is lucky, that something different is just coat color; if he's unlucky, it's unnatural movement like Big Lick.

This is what causes peanut rolling in western pleasure, useless tiny feet on halter QH's, defective hind ends on German shepherds and all the rest of it. Natural isn't speshul - it's too easy to get - to win ribbons we need something ELSE, even if that something else is actually detrimental to the animal in the end.


In short, showing encourages the breeding of more horses that are only suitable for more showing, not for anything else. It's an infinite loop driven only by money.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

This thread is a Can of worms waiting to be opened.

My opinion is this any good trainer or breeder or rider as a matter of fact does rely on good conformation. Certain conformation flaws effect a horses way of going no amount of tugging yanking whipping kicking yelling slapping is going to do a bit of good.
A good breeder breeds to improve on a specific breed or even discipline.
As it was siad in so many threads long before this one and sure to have many more, there are good and bad in all areas of horses. Showing no matter how you look at it can be very political. Unless showing is based on speed or clear rounds But as far as pleasure horses hunters etc etc your going to run into political BS and breed rascism ( lol ) 
I got out of the showing for one simple reason NO ONDE IS HAPPY no more does one go out to compete for fun to learn to meet new people share tips or just talk about the days. Its been more the "MY HORSE IS SOOOO MUCH BETTER THEN YOURS" or HORSE ABUSE HORSE ABUSE its just a bunch of whining. Im done with that. I do not breed anymore I do not show I enjoy my horses for the pleasure they give me unconditional love. Any horses I sell only go to approved homes with an agreement I have the option to buy back first.
ABUSE is over used over exagerated in so many cases. JMHO

TRR


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

the TWH fiasco is abuse, no two ways about that. That breed needs to rethink the High Lick movement. I have seen horses for the charro riding, with thier heads tied up high for all day. Abusive. I have seen quarter and paints with thier heads tied to the side and low all day. Abusive. I have seen horses just tied up all day to learn patience. Abusive. 
PETA says owning and riding a horse is Abusive. so.. unless your horse is out running free , you are abusive.. (not my opinion)


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

RosiePosie06 said:


> I was reading a thread about soring of TWH and the conversation had changed to the abuse in showing in general. I took it upon myself to start a topic on this considering the treatment of show horses is an important topic to me as well.
> 
> I experienced horse abuse blatantly in my face when I showed the paint breed show circuit. I saw *every single* trainer ripping and jerking on faces, my fellow youth competitors calling their mounts "it", and people hanging heads and tying them down. The problem with abuse is that whether someone's training is abusive is very subjective. Anyway, how do you guys think showing abuse should be monitored? What bothers you? I say vent here, I know I need to and I will later on.


First, "abuse" seems to be a new "fad" word of sorts. It is being WAY overused. Yes, the soring of the TWH and the video was blatant abuse. I don't hink you will find ANYONE to disagree with you there. However, you need to be really careful generalizing and saying "every" anything does.....XYZ. THat is NEVER the case, and will not gain you credibility for sure. Yes, training abuse IS subjective. I just got my horse back from reining training. I will guarantee you that some would consider it abusive. After all, I ride my horse (which PETA considers abuse), I use spurs **gasp** and my horse WILL do what he is told. Period. It bothers me to constantly have to wonder who is watching me as I warm up at a show(like last weekend).....and worry the some do-gooder will tape it and have my face on youtube without knowing the story. I happen to have one of those horses who will take the mile every time, if you give an inch. I am his 6th owner, and he is 7. One of his previous owners came to see him at the show last weekend. She made excuses for every bad behavior I corrected. She contributed to him being the monster he is today. I love him dearly, but he is lucky. He has a stubborn streak, will turn his butt to you if you let him (yes, he has kicked her in the past, because she made excuses that he was looking at something.....)She thinks I am "too hard on him.".....when I smack him for doing that.:shock: He will be loping around (after thousands of $$ in reining training) and just stop. Will NOT move. I have the job of getting him to go forward. Yes, it takes spurs, reins, whatever, but he MUST go forward. His mind is his own worst enemy. I am doing my best to make a good horse out of him so that nothing bad happens to him should I have to sell, but at some point he has to help a little. :wink: And yes, there are times I will "yank" on him. If he knows better and need to pay attention and everything else fails, Hell yeah!

Bottom line is that every horse is different. You cannot judge what is abusive by just looking in every case. THe word is overused. be very very careful who you accuse. You may just end up with a lawsuit.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

Right now the TWH world is in the eys of the world much like the Race horse. But I will not state and never will state that ALL ONE BREED OR DISCIPLINE is bad. You get JAs in all areas. Not all TWH are abused like they show. Not all are and cant be classified as the same. 
QHs and Paints again you get some idiots. I will not say there isnt abuse in some cases What I am saying is SOME scream abuse and use abuse all too often. When in fact it isnt abuse at all just stupidity.
example of what is not actually abuse 
Horses in stalls 24/7( with exercise)
horse worked till they sweat
tugging on the horse
tap on the rump with a crop
Head held low ( peanut roller )
chain over the nose under the chin
Mule bits or any bit that matters
Tie downs
etc etc

Abuse to me is when a animal is hurt or starved or one causes pain to horse. Abandonment 
I can think of some more but the thread would be too long.

Yes TWH needs to revamp their code of conduct on how one handles and manages care and training of their horses. Strictor rules for those found to sore ..abuse horses such as band from ever showing again along with owning or training of horses. stiffer laws makes it harder to abuse.

JMHO

TRR


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

YA WHAT FRANKIE SAID lol


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

*



My opinion is this any good trainer or breeder or rider as a matter of fact does rely on good conformation. Certain conformation flaws effect a horses way of going no amount of tugging yanking whipping kicking yelling slapping is going to do a bit of good.
A good breeder breeds to improve on a specific breed or even discipline.
As it was siad in so many threads long before this one and sure to have many more, there are good and bad in all areas of horses. Showing no matter how you look at it can be very political. Unless showing is based on speed or clear rounds But as far as pleasure horses hunters etc etc your going to run into political BS and breed rascism ( lol ) 
I got out of the showing for one simple reason NO ONDE IS HAPPY no more does one go out to compete for fun to learn to meet new people share tips or just talk about the days. Its been more the "MY HORSE IS SOOOO MUCH BETTER THEN YOURS" or HORSE ABUSE HORSE ABUSE its just a bunch of whining. Im done with that. I do not breed anymore I do not show I enjoy my horses for the pleasure they give me unconditional love. Any horses I sell only go to approved homes with an agreement I have the option to buy back first

Click to expand...

I agree with all of this, except that I have to simply say that I feel like I only saw bad. In my eyes.




First, "abuse" seems to be a new "fad" word of sorts. It is being WAY overused. Yes, the soring of the TWH and the video was blatant abuse. I don't hink you will find ANYONE to disagree with you there. However, you need to be really careful generalizing and saying "every" anything does.....XYZ. THat is NEVER the case, and will not gain you credibility for sure. Yes, training abuse IS subjective. I just got my horse back from reining training. I will guarantee you that some would consider it abusive. After all, I ride my horse (which PETA considers abuse), I use spurs **gasp** and my horse WILL do what he is told. Period. It bothers me to constantly have to wonder who is watching me as I warm up at a show(like last weekend).....and worry the some do-gooder will tape it and have my face on youtube without knowing the story. I happen to have one of those horses who will take the mile every time, if you give an inch. I am his 6th owner, and he is 7. One of his previous owners came to see him at the show last weekend. She made excuses for every bad behavior I corrected. She contributed to him being the monster he is today. I love him dearly, but he is lucky. He has a stubborn streak, will turn his butt to you if you let him (yes, he has kicked her in the past, because she made excuses that he was looking at something.....)She thinks I am "too hard on him.".....when I smack him for doing that.:shock: He will be loping around (after thousands of $$ in reining training) and just stop. Will NOT move. I have the job of getting him to go forward. Yes, it takes spurs, reins, whatever, but he MUST go forward. His mind is his own worst enemy. I am doing my best to make a good horse out of him so that nothing bad happens to him should I have to sell, but at some point he has to help a little. :wink: And yes, there are times I will "yank" on him. If he knows better and need to pay attention and everything else fails, Hell yeah!

Click to expand...

First of all, "abuse" to me is not a fad word simply because I've been referring to what I saw in my show experience as abuse long before I really talked to horse people outside of the show world. Secondly, I entirely acknowledge that my view of abuse is different from others. It's undeniable. And I totally understand that a horse needs to be spurred or tugged at the appropriate moments for the appropriate reasons. Even I'm guilty of being TOO harsh with my horse at some point. However I assure you I took this into consideration the entire time I was observing what I saw as abuse. Many a time I thought "Okay, that girl is frustrated and taking her anger out on her horse. I'm sure she doesn't treat him like that all the time." Only to be proven wrong. Or "Okay, that trainer is probably only treating that horse like that because he's behaving horrible." Then see them ride the next horses at the next shows that way. Constantly yanking... Maybe I could change my word from "abuse" to "intimidation". Either way, the treatment I saw of horses made me very disillusioned. I was under the impression that "horse lovers" and "horse people" were one in the same. But apparently it is very possible to be a "horse person" simply because you enjoy winning and intimidating something into submission.*


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

The word "abuse" is WAY overused right now, IMO. That was my point. Watching any horse/trainers at a show does not tell you the whole story, even if you watch them the whole day. You do not know the history, personality of the horse, etc. But, again, if you think it is abuse, go to the show officials and report it.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I don't think that all showing is abusive, I just think it's counterproductive. The original purpose of showing was to evaluate horses for breeding - and it's not even the best way of doing that - but now it's just about bragging rights and money.


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

this is not the first time that the TWH association has been under the light about 15 yrs ago there were told that a vet must be on site to check horses for soring, you think that other breed association would clean up there act so this dose not happen to them, well they do not get it, if the judges stop give ribbons to the horse that do not show neurally them the money would stop and they would stop keep doing what you are doing and the govermaent will tell you how it will be.:?


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

> Watching any horse/trainers at a show does not tell you the whole story, even if you watch them the whole day. You do not know the history, personality of the horse, etc. But, again, if you think it is abuse, go to the show officials and report it.


Then all I can say in response to that is that IN MY OPINION, no human being who cares for horses should treat so many horses that way so often, despite the circumstances. I think if someone wants to justify that they can spend multiple days riding multiple horses like that and not be mistreating them, then they obviously don't truly care for their horses.


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

And again you say I don't know the history of the horse, well once the amount turns into five + horses being treated the exact same way. Then I begin to question not only history but the integreity of the human.


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

> this is not the first time that the TWH association has been under the light about 15 yrs ago there were told that a vet must be on site to check horses for soring, you think that other breed association would clean up there act so this dose not happen to them, well they do not get it, if the judges stop give ribbons to the horse that do not show neurally them the money would stop and they would stop keep doing what you are doing and the govermaent will tell you how it will be.


The western pleasure circuit has the same problem with paralyzing tails. It's illegal and against the rules, but SO MANY horses do not have full use of their tails. I haven't seen or heard of anyone getting in trouble for it, despite the rules being entirely against it. Plus if paralyzing a part of your horse is not cruelty, then I don't know what is.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

> First, "abuse" seems to be a new "fad" word of sorts.


A-MEN -- right up there with "rescue".


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> I don't think that all showing is abusive, I just think it's counterproductive. The original purpose of showing was to evaluate horses for breeding - and it's not even the best way of doing that - but now it's just about bragging rights and money.


I want to start with, I respect your opinion, it is yours to have. Although I may not agree with it completely, I do know there are a lot of people who show for the reasons of Money or bragging. 

I however LOVE to show my horse. I am not looking for bragging rights, and I don't get any money out of it, in fact... I loose money ha ha.

Why do I show? Well, here is my reason. I bought my horse as a 7 year old pasture pet that had for all intents and purposes, been given up on. He had a history of an abusive "30 day training" and bucking people off after that. Then I bought him and reworked him from the ground up. I decided to go with dressage to teach him to move more properly, use his body, an be balanced. I show him dressage because I like to see that we both are improving. Most people say our scores SUCK. But I think my horse is great because each show we get a higher score...

As for abuse. I saw it at some shows when I lived in California. I have NEVER seen it here in Nebraska. In fact, they are pretty strict about that out here. Not just show officials but the people at the shows. Yes you often have to know the whole story, but people are not afraid to ask "what is going on that you need to do that to your horse?" I've seen trainers help people who aren't their students at a show because they see an issue escalating to where the rider is just freaking out. I have been mostly to dressage shows, but I have also been to some of the APHA shows, and AQHA shows... I think the most abusive thing I have seen out here is an occasional "bump" with the reins...and most of those people get yelled at by their trainers for it too.

I think if everyone all over decided to SPEAK UP at shows, ask questions, let show authorities know what is going on, then there would be a lot less abuse at shows. It works here in Nebraska, so why not other places. I think a person who sees someone doing something abusive but doesn't speak up or at least question what is going on, is just as bad as the abuser themself.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I think if everyone all over decided to SPEAK UP at shows, ask questions, let show authorities know what is going on, then there would be a lot less abuse at shows. It works here in Nebraska, so why not other places. I think a person who sees someone doing something abusive but doesn't speak up or at least question what is going on, is just as bad as the abuser themself.


I think sometimes people want to give the trainer/rider the benefit of the doubt and don't say anything. The shows I've been to are VERY clickish and that might intimidate someone from speaking up.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

gigem88 said:


> I think sometimes people want to give the trainer/rider the benefit of the doubt and don't say anything. The shows I've been to are VERY clickish and that might intimidate someone from speaking up.


Yeah. Some trainers you don't ever want to cross because they'll tell you to your face that they'll slash your trailer tires or hurt your horse during the night...

Personally, it's just too much energy for me to be wasting on seeing and judging what other people are doing. I get riled up every once and a while, but when I realize there's nothing I can do about it, it's just so. I tend to believe that the universe will work itself out in a certain way, and that everybody is followed by karma (Rita Crundwell, for example). Even though their horses may be pushed past the limit and winning championships, you can't expect a person like that to be a very happy person inside. These trainers smoke and drink and swear and sleep with their youth clients... You can tell that these forms of questionable "abuse" come from a place where they desperately are looking to fit in and be special because they are lacking in their personal lives. And it's hard to "make it big" in the horse industry. Sometimes you got to do things you don't want to in order to earn a living. I think that the registries and the judges are slowly improving to create better standards for horses and riders.

All I can do is concentrate on my own training. I incorporate natural horsemanship. I take the time to train things, which may take twice as long as trainers. I want my horses to be sound and happy, and I want to win on my terms. There's something to say about struggle that makes winning that much more sweet. If I resorted to hanky-shank and won a bunch of classes, I wouldn't feel nearly as good about myself, personally. They would be empty wins in comparison to taking the extra year to finesse pressure and release. It would make it even more sweet to be the one person with a level neck and uncanted lope who gets placed above everyone else. Because it wasn't "hurry up and make it win and on to the next horse when it's crippled", it would be a bonding experience and true horsemanship.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I decided to go with dressage to teach him to move more properly, use his body, an be balanced. I show him dressage because I like to see that we both are improving.


Dressage is not included in my definition of showing (see my original post). Dressage is more subjective than most sports, but it's still in the sport category because it tests learned skills as opposed to just way of going.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> Dressage is not included in my definition of showing (see my original post). Dressage is more subjective than most sports, but it's still in the sport category because it tests learned skills as opposed to just way of going.


Actually I'll have to argue with that. Cinny gets marked way down ALL the time because of his way of going and the fact that he has not built up his topline so that he can carry himself properly


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

abuse can be a simple as .. bumping a horses teeth with the bit when trying to bridle, as i recently saw someone do to a horse that is now mine. Bumped that bit onto his teeth more than once, i went SAID This is not how you bridle a horse, DO not ever bump that bit on his teeth again. That would hurt so that is abuse. (she signed the horse over to me )


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

stevenson said:


> abuse can be a simple as .. bumping a horses teeth with the bit when trying to bridle, as i recently saw someone do to a horse that is now mine. Bumped that bit onto his teeth more than once, i went SAID This is not how you bridle a horse, DO not ever bump that bit on his teeth again. That would hurt so that is abuse. (she signed the horse over to me )


 This is EXACTLY what we're talking about. Bumping a horse's teeth when you put the bridle on is a far cry from abuse.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I should have been clearer, I heard the bit hit his teeth. Had she cracked his tooth I would have cracked her. Heard it. AND bumping a horses teeth with the bit is a bad beginner mistake, and if it ever happens at My property again the b is out and not welcome back. How would you like your teeth bumped with a metal bar to the point it makes noise.. IT is ABUSIVE and IGNORANT>


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

You'd be hard-pressed to crack a horse's tooth while bitting him. It's nowhere near abuse, it's simply a beginner's mistake or a bit of carelessness. Your horse's life and health are not in danger because someone was a bit rough when bitting him.

If it's happening on your property, sure, you can tell her how you want things done. However, understand that it is NOT abuse.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Understand this, it is abusive uncalled for treatment of an animal. If its fine with you to bash your horses teeth with a bit , then you are also abusive. There are minor to major forms of abuse. I dont tie my horses with thier heads low or high either.. abusive. It causes them pain .. bashing the teeth can be painful.. therefore abusive. You are entitled to your opinion, but if I saw you do it on my property, i would smack the back of your head. BEcause that would not be abusive either...


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Would I ever intentionally bang the bit agaisnt a horse's teeth? No, it's unnecessary and wouldn't accomplish anything. However, just because a horse feels slight discomfort from it, it does NOT constitute abuse. Watch a few videos of the recent TWH controversy. Go to a local rescue and watch some of the neglected horses that come in on death's doorstep, or the PMU mares, or the horses forgotten in a deceased neighbor's barn for years, practically standing on their fetlocks because of toes that are curled over. THAT is abuse. Abuse is not hitting a horse's teeth against his bit.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

OFFS, are you serious, Stevenson?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

legal definition of cruelty and abuse varying by state but most seem to concur: overwork, tortured, tormented, wounded, physical pain, mental anguish and physical violence. Seriously.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Teehee. Guess I'm abusing my horse when he "runs into my elbow" when he tries to bite me.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm sorry, but the kind of bull**** definition of "abuse" being applied by your logic is exactly what is creating the issues in the system that cause REAL abuse cases to not be addressed as quickly and fully as possible.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I posted the legal description.
If you dont think having a peice of metal bashed into your teeth is painful and incorrect well....I would hate to be your horse. 
and smacking a horse for biting is not abusive ... repeatedly beating your horse cause it bit you is abusive. 
smacking someone in the back of the head is as abusive as smacking a mishaved horse. IN my definition a smack is without with force and does not cause pain and damage.


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

People, he is claiming the person banged the bit on the horse's teeth on PURPOSE. That is mistreatment (avoiding "abuse"). However if it is on accident, of course it's not. If someone hit my teeth with anything metal on purpose I'd flip a b*tch. If they did it on accident... well I'd probably cuss up a storm but accept apology. Horses aren't immune to pain either.

Now claiming that since some horses get abused near death, the ones that get abused as well but are living are not actually abused is VERY flawed. If I tie my horse up and beat him repeatedly when he has nowhere to go, but he just has welts and is fine the next day, is that not unjust and cruel?

Basically take the word "abuse" out of the equation. I am severely against UNNECESSARY (I can never spell that word!) use of physical force upon an animal in any form. My horse doesn't give to the bit, do I yank on his mouth to a point that I see him flinching and hear the bit hitting the bars of his mouth? No. I go back some steps in my training and help him respond to the bit again. My horse tries to bite me, do I hit him? Yes. Do I repeatedly lash him with a rein? No. Yes, it is subjective. If I elbow a horse in the face on accident, is that mistreatment? No. If I hit him in the face repeatedly? Yes. Accidents happen. Even your horse will accidently hurt you! So remove that from the conversation.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Oh, come on now, don't pick and choose! You said that, as per the law, physical pain counts as abuse, no matter how small or great, if your horse is caused pain by you, it is abusive. Well, my elbows are pretty sharp. My horse feels pain if he goes after me. I am every bit an abuser as someone who inexperiencedly/unknowedly knocks a horse in the teeth (I quote, "bumping a horses teeth with the bit is a bad beginner mistake", does not sound like someone who does this on purpose..). Or someone who is learning spurs for the first time and accidently rolls too hard. Or anyone who has hot wire in their pastures. Or anyone that uses a crop, or puts on shoes, or pulls their horses mane.


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

oh vair oh said:


> Oh, come on now, don't pick and choose! You said that, as per the law, physical pain counts as abuse, no matter how small or great, if your horse is caused pain by you, it is abusive. Well, my elbows are pretty sharp. My horse feels pain if he goes after me. I am every bit an abuser as someone who inexperiencedly/unknowedly knocks a horse in the teeth (I quote, "bumping a horses teeth with the bit is a bad beginner mistake", does not sound like someone who does this on purpose..). Or someone who is learning spurs for the first time and accidently rolls too hard. Or anyone who has hot wire in their pastures. Or anyone that uses a crop, or puts on shoes, or pulls their horses mane.


Just to clear things up, I do not agree with Stevenson on those points you are addressing. I do think that horses use force to communicate, so we have to as well. It's the unneccassary force I meant.

However I agree with him about the bit, assuming the one who did that did it on purpose.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Yes. It deals with _intent_ If the intent is to harm the horse, it is abuse. If it is a rookie mistake, cut the girl a break and use it as a chance to _educate_ her, not criminalize her.


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## KissTheRing (Aug 2, 2011)

Simple as I've never seen a happy horse at a rated/big show- ever. Their either hyped out of their mind or hurting in someway- alcohol injections ect. I dont define abuse as correcting but any correcting in long stints is-


I love to show local- because its a complete different feeling- But even then their are the snooty people that wont smile back when you complement their horse- When I pass some one, doesnt matter who, I ALWAYS smile at them- They just give me a look like "WTF Come At Me Bro!" 
Showing is something I tolerate because I want to know how my horse measures up to others- vain I know- but it means a lot to me when he places high. Because that is all my hard work and asperations in motion.

I believe the only thing that will change the show world is a good group of people; to make the norm not normal anymore. Example NH- They are changing the way their horses are trained- but their catching all sorts of hell because their seen as uh crazy. But they get result- without all the exessive tools and loosly used term "abuse"


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

KissTheRing said:


> Simple as I've never seen a happy horse at a rated/big show- ever.


Please come watch me at a rated show some time.  I feel like there are more and more people out there who are dedicated to their horsemanship and their horses. I supplement my western pleasure training with natural horsemanship. I go to the Congress and the Worlds. It's not hard, it just takes longer and more patience. Do I win all the time? No, the board is still quite split, but there are people out there who are trying to change things for the better.


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh vair oh, I have to say that the conversations I've had with you about WP have made me really respect you. I hope you kick a bunch of butt when you show and prove to everyone that natural horsemanship is not crazy and a happy horse can win! The California APHA circuit needs a dose of your methods haha.


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## KissTheRing (Aug 2, 2011)

oh vair oh said:


> Please come watch me at a rated show some time.  I feel like there are more and more people out there who are dedicated to their horsemanship and their horses. I supplement my western pleasure training with natural horsemanship. I go to the Congress and the Worlds. It's not hard,* it just takes longer and more patience.* Do I win all the time? No, the board is still quite split, but there are people out there who are trying to change things for the better.


Oh I wish people around here cared a little more- 
The bolded is what people always have a problem with- Like the horses that win in 2yr divisions- no hate- But I just dont see the point to make them win at such an early age- because they've may be been trained for 6 months, you think they trained them right? Maybe but iffy--- But I guess thats all money influenced

I'm happy your an individual that stands against the "normal" / again loosely used "abuse" in the horse world


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Bleggghghgh. The Socal horse circuit SUCKS. I go and watch the shows, and nobody seems to have gotten the memo on what 4-beating is... I was actually very surprised, because I thought people out here would be more higher leveled. I'll probably trailer out to AZ for the futurities. Their breed shows appear to be a little better, from what I've heard. Though, it doesn't really matter, still waiting for my show pony to grow up. x.x

Yes, I love my natural horsemanship and my Dressage to level up my WP/HUS ponies... I'm just like, yes, my horse can hold his head and be soft to the bit without fearing my hands... He can be mentally responsible for what he does with his face... Just takes a week instead of two minutes... :/


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

If I was to nit pick everything a boarder does I would never have boaders in my barn. I have seen horses bite at bits chomp bits and loudly too. I tap SAMs teeth with the bit because hes a bit numb to know when to open up and Im sorry but his law and is a bit big to try and use finger between gums and to slip bit in mouth at same time. You would have to hit the horses teeth pretty dang hard to crack them. 
I think some people get a little carried away on what is abuse and what isnt. If someone is having trouble in an area with their horse that doesnt mean abuse its the barns owners place to show the person a better way of doing it. But to say I WOULD THROW THE %$#@ OUT if they did it again is a bit over the top. And probably wouldnt have many boarders wanting to stay. 
My horse bites me you better believe their going to get a good smack or I bite them back. ( I think that falls under Rick Gores Think like a horse ****)
My horse kicks at me their going to know that isnt tolerated one bit. I had one of my colts kick at me with intent and I didnt hesitate to kick him right in the Butt literally Thats not abuse thats telling them its not tolerated. I get a horse that crowds me all the time in a stall My cure a needle in hand Solves that issue fast Not abuse its letting them know its not tolerated. I have a horse that rears at me I make them back up fast till I say stop Thats not abuse thats telling them rearing is not tolerated.

Take a whip to a horse repeatedly and leaving whip marks is abuse hitting a horse with a solid object repeatedly thats abuse starving beating abandoning torture to commit harm.

Over using the word abuse makes the real cases harder to prove. learn to distinquish abuse and stupidity and such before claiming abuse.

JMHO

TRR


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Here is an example:

This is me at 16 riding my WP pony at PtHA congress. Notice the level poll, not below the withers, on the bit, and the subtle give-and-take between us. This is a horse that has never been ripped with the bit. And aside from the cadence issues from my then general lack of training knowledge, and aside from the fact that he is not a hunt seat horse, you can see the beginnings of something completely natural and happy in the show ring.

(PLEASE, turn down the volume for my angsty teenage music choice x.x)






I wish I had more recent videos where I didn't look like such a novice, hehehe x.x


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

well, thanks to those who understood my point. And I am a she, an almost 60 yr old she, who has had horses for 45 years. I can smack you , and startle you, not causing pain, or I can use force and cause pain. Same as with horses, I can discipline with the tone of my voice also, and with a look. Watch horses in a herd, before the kick comes the look.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

yes, i did post the legal description. So I guess we are all guilty according to the legal description


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Popcorn anyone?? This should get..interesting...


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

I would have to say all kicks do not come with a "Act in time " warning only takes a split second for ears to go back and and kick. 
If I had someone come into my barn and yell ABUSE because they dont like what Im doing is definately going to get the boot out of my barn ...now if they come in my barn and say Hey I dont agree with what your doing its stupid now thats an opinion I will tolerate But abuse I do not abuse my horses PERIOD 

and why does it one throws well I have this amount of years with horses etc etc years dont mean anything really I seen people with less years have alot more knowledge then those with more. 

STEVENS you have your opinions and thats fine. Im not fighting on this at all its a good discussion and we are all intitled to our opinions. oh and I have about 40 years in horses as well.

I told everyone right in the beginning this was going to open a can of worms lol Im going fishing now.

TRR


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

KissTheRing said:


> Simple as I've never seen a happy horse at a rated/big show- ever.


????? Wow, generalize much? Go check out my WP horse. He's at an AQHA show right now in Northampton MA and will be there until Sunday. I can give you directions if you want.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

GotaDunQH said:


> ????? Wow, generalize much? Go check out my WP horse. He's at an AQHA show right now in Northampton MA and will be there until Sunday. I can give you directions if you want.


Agreed. I've been to_ plenty_ of shows where it's obvious the horses are having a grand old time.

Some horses_ live_ for the show ring.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Agreed. I've been to_ plenty_ of shows where it's obvious the horses are having a grand old time.
> 
> Some horses_ live_ for the show ring.


Yep...my horse practically trots onto the trailer, he LOVES getting off the farm and to a show.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

DrumRunner said:


> Popcorn anyone?? This should get..interesting...










have some of mine, I've got plenty to share. I've noticed "Abuse" gets tossed around as a topic on this board with little more than the intent to troll or push one's own myopic world view. I'm (coff coff) late 40something and have trained both horses and dogs/police K9s and KNOW better than to get in the middle. Many years ago my old K9 mentor told me something that has stuck with me ever since.

(read this in a clipped staccato German accent)


> The only think you can get tree trainers to agree on is dat a fourth man is doingik it wrong. They won't agree as to why him is wrong, only dat he iss wrong.


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

My previous show horse didn't neccessarily love showing (it made him a bit nervous) but he loved his job! Even when I rode under a trainer that I will never ever return to who treated him badly he STILL wanted to work. I never stood up to er because I was 11 or 12 at the time and shy... I would now.

Anyway if you are accusing me of wanting to "troll", please take it back. I already had a discussion about the word "abuse" and have been replacing it with "mistreatment" and "cruelty", because those are more accurate. It hurts me as a person to assume that I'd bring this up just to be spiteful because I am a dedicated animal lover and take the good treatment of all life very seriously.

However people disagreeing with me doesn't bother me! It's definitely true what you said about trainers haha. You learn what TO do and what NOT to do from everyone


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

No RosiePosie, my statement was a general observation regarding the various threads one can find here and not directed at anyone in particular.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

This is how I look at this.. I haven't even read all of the posts but this is usually how it plays out in life, especially with horse people.. 

In an "abuse" case there are three stories. That of the "abuser", the person ranting about the "abuser"..and the truth.. both parties will go back and forth arguing. There is usually over exaggerating going on and the story gets twisted from every angle..Just food for thought.

AND I can guarantee that every person on this forum has abused one or more horses in their life time..that said, abuse is NOT just beating or neglecting the horse...The people who try to baby a 1000lb + animal are just as bad as the people who beat and neglect their horses..because the "pretty horse is a dog" people are setting that horse up for failure. That horse will have no respect for that owner and then that said horse will have to be sold..and who wants a dangerous horse? Not many people will put with that..and so to one of the abusive beating people.. Kinda funny don't you think?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> This is how I look at this.. I haven't even read all of the posts but this is usually how it plays out in life, especially with horse people..
> 
> In an "abuse" case there are three stories. That of the "abuser", the person ranting about the "abuser"..and the truth.. both parties will go back and forth arguing. There is usually over exaggerating going on and the story gets twisted from every angle..Just food for thought.
> 
> *AND I can guarantee that every person on this forum has abused one or more horses in their life time*..that said, abuse is NOT just beating or neglecting the horse...The people who try to baby a 1000lb + animal are just as bad as the people who beat and neglect their horses..because the "pretty horse is a dog" people are setting that horse up for failure. That horse will have no respect for that owner and then that said horse will have to be sold..and who wants a dangerous horse? Not many people will put with that..and so to one of the abusive beating people.. Kinda funny don't you think?


 
Whoa....I am HIGHLY offended by that! You need to think twice before saying carp like that! I don't beat my horses, I don't neglect my horses, I don't overfeed/underfeed my horses, and I don't baby my horses because I think they are a "pretty pony" I can pat and brush.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> Whoa....I am HIGHLY offended by that! You need to think twice before saying carp like that! I don't beat my horses, I don't neglect my horses, I don't overfeed/underfeed my horses, and I don't baby my horses because I think they are a "pretty pony" I can pat and brush.


I could have worded that better, I apologize.. What I meant in that statement is that even the people who want to baby their horses and rant about the people who "abuse" their horses by "beating" them are just as bad as the people who do beat their horses, IMO.. and the regular people who may smack their horses a few times to correct the horse, for let's say biting, those people are put in the same category as the people who "beat and abuse" their horses by the people who are babying their horses.. I'm having a hard time explaining this, laugh..I could explain it in much more detail in person...To put it shortly.. Through someone else's eyes, every one has "abused" their horse, even if it's not abuse in your mind. Every one sees things differently.. and I agree with you on just about any thread we've both posted in..The "abuse" just differs in opinions by different people, disciplines, standards, and such.. 

That said, I am NOT saying that you personally beat, neglect, baby, and "abuse" your horse..but through someone else's eyes..(the people against WP) you are put in that category as the people who actually DO abuse the horse.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ OK....I get it now, sorry! Even though I don't abuse my horses and never have, in SOMEONE'S eyes...I am an abuser. Because by PETA standards, we are ALL abusers...and horses should never been ridden, or gelded, or spayed, or ridden, or housed etc. But SHOULD be turned loose to run free, no matter where you live, so they can breed willy nilly, overpopulate, and die at the hands of poachers, predators, ranchers who don't want them on their land etc.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> ^ OK....I get it now, sorry! Even though I don't abuse my horses and never have, in SOMEONE'S eyes...I am an abuser. Because by PETA standards, we are ALL abusers...and horses should never been ridden, or gelded, or spayed, or ridden, or housed etc. But SHOULD be turned loose to run free, no matter where you live, so they can breed willy nilly, overpopulate, and die at the hands of poachers, predators, ranchers who don't want them on their land etc.


lol No problem.. I could have worded it better..I was on my phone for the first post and didn't really reread it..my fault!

Exactly! Geez, we're horrible owners.. We feed our horses, make sure they are in great health, pay more for their needs than we do our own, and *gasp* they have a more pampered life style than we do! We're terrible I know.. Now only if PETA would explain that to my horses..Because they sure don't seem to think they're abused..


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

I love friendly arguments Hahaha


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## sckamper (Feb 25, 2012)

Competition brings the worst out in anyone, or at least the majority of the human race. Unfortunately we are greedy and want to be the best. We want that useless blue ribbon, dang it! I only show in open shows and some people don't care what they have to do to get a horse to win. 

I have seen someone literally punch their horse in the face in the middle of warm up...Angry much? I saw a stud that had cut his leg open during the night, His loving owners superglued a huge flap of skin back, spray painted it, and went into a halter class (completely lame, but still won because he had the most muscle and that's what's important, right?) People don't know how to get their horses to do what they want except through extreme discomfort and pain. Horses being shown in tiny twisted wire bits with blood in the corner of their mouths, still placing... ridiculous!. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but the day I punch my horse is the day I walk away. 

And at the breed shows (all of them) its definitely even worse. Bigger prizes=Bigger risks. I went to the palomino world a few years ago and saw a horse that had just had its tail done (fresh blood at injection sites) being schooled. I think all those fancy curtains and stall drapes are to hide all the illegal stuff going on. 

I am always glad I wasn't born a horse, because I wouldn't take half of the crap that those poor saints take. 

Ok, I'm done with my rant now, carry on


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

PHBA is not a breed association, it's a color association and, as discussed to death in another thread, a lower level of competition than AQHA and APHA shows and a much higher likelihood of seeing questionable practices. 3


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## sckamper (Feb 25, 2012)

My bad... sorry. There's still questionable practices that go on in any association, whether breed, color, or otherwise. just because AQHA is a higher level of competition doesn't make people less cruel or greedy

Also there is a new registry for palominos that allows horses with registered palomino parents to show even if they are not palomino in color themselves. I guess it's kind of like breedstock paint classes.


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## KissTheRing (Aug 2, 2011)

GotaDunQH said:


> ????? Wow, generalize much? Go check out my WP horse. He's at an AQHA show right now in Northampton MA and will be there until Sunday. I can give you directions if you want.


No- If it were a generalization I would have said "There has never been a happy horse at a rated/big show Ever." 
I was stating my opinion, of which was, honestly pretty politically correct and did the job of answering the OPs question--- Don't troll on my words- when others are being way more cheeky


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Actually I'll have to argue with that. Cinny gets marked way down ALL the time because of his way of going and the fact that he has not built up his topline so that he can carry himself properly


But that isn't the ONLY thing he's marked on.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

KissTheRing said:


> No- If it were a generalization I would have said "There has never been a happy horse at a rated/big show Ever."
> I was stating my opinion, of which was, honestly pretty politically correct and did the job of answering the OPs question--- Don't troll on my words- when others are being way more cheeky


I wasn't "trolling" on your words.....I was RESPONDING to what you said, so friggin' lighten up. YOU said....YOU have NEVER seen a happy horse at a rated/big show....ever. And I told you where you could actually go to SEE a happy horse at a rated/big show.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

sckamper said:


> Competition brings the worst out in anyone, or at least the majority of the human race. Unfortunately we are greedy and want to be the best. We want that useless blue ribbon, dang it! I only show in open shows and some people don't care what they have to do to get a horse to win.
> 
> I have seen someone literally punch their horse in the face in the middle of warm up...Angry much? I saw a stud that had cut his leg open during the night, His loving owners superglued a huge flap of skin back, spray painted it, and went into a halter class (completely lame, but still won because he had the most muscle and that's what's important, right?) People don't know how to get their horses to do what they want except through extreme discomfort and pain. *Horses being shown in tiny twisted wire bits with blood in the corner of their mouths, still placing... ridiculous!*. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but the day I punch my horse is the day I walk away.
> 
> ...


Curious....was that an AQHA show? Because those bits are illegal and bit checks are done at every AQHA show in an Amateur and Open class.


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## sckamper (Feb 25, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> Curious....was that an AQHA show? Because those bits are illegal and bit checks are done at every AQHA show in an Amateur and Open class.


No, it was an open show, although they were supposed to go by AQHA rules.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

sckamper said:


> No, it was an open show, although they were supposed to go by AQHA rules.


Well then here's the problem. AQHA has no authority over these open shows. It's up to the open show associations to follow the rules EXACTLY; if they claim they are following rules from a higher organization.


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## Eclipse295 (Nov 30, 2010)

I think problems come when the human desire to win outweighs the human conscience.


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