# purpose of drop nosebands?



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I always understood the sole purpose of a drop noseband was to tie a horse's mouth shut. To prevent them 'gaping' or such, when a horse is not happy about the bit for whatever reason, or to stop small ringed snaffle being pulled through the mouth if a lot of pressure is used on one rein.

It came up elsewhere that this is an incorrect assumption and drop nose bands can be used very loosely, so they do not restrict a horse opening it's mouth. No reason was given for this though. I'm curious, what are the other purposes for these type nosebands, especially used loosely? I can't think of any myself.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

It depends on how loose you mean. 

Many fit them so tight that there’s either no space or there’s room for one finger. If it’s loose enough for two fingers, so that the horse can still chew and eat grass, then it teaches the horse the correct way to handle pressure from a bit. 


The looser noseband applies pressure only when the horse resists the action of the bit. The horse learns that the pressure is released when it stops gaping, relaxes its jaw muscles and drops its nose. 

I've no idea what it could be used for if it is any looser.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I use them on most horses as preventative and as a safety measure, as well as to prevent the tongue coming over the bit, etc. People say it shouldn't happen but even with good hands things happen and I'd rather be safe than trying to please some idealism or philosophy that says anything on the horse's nose is evil. For example my ottb is VERY VERY strong, he's a lot lighter in the bridle now than he used to be. He will flat out pull a rider out of the saddle if he wants to. He'll do it if a rider is too heavy handed, hold his mouth (absolutely cant hold against him) he flips out but I remember setting my hands because he was pulling SO hard on the bridle and resisting in my core that he literally pulled me from sitting trot up onto his neck, after that I bought a bucking strap and anytime he'd pull like that I'd grab the strap so he'd only have himself to pull on and he learned to respect the bit boundary and now is quite light. 

But it has to be understood that horse has some serious power, it's honestly ridiculous. Ridden 18+h warmbloods from europe without half his power. When he has a moment I want that nose band and flash for our protection. I had to run that horse into a wall at least 10x a ride for a very long time because you couldn't run rein stop, partially because of his stifles and because if you tried he'd honestly take the bit and pull you right onto his neck, anybody who thinks they can out muscle a horse is fooling themself. There are moments when he gets REALLY strong and I'd have to grab my bucking strap to keep my hands because he would get so strong there was NO way to not get pulled out of the saddle and when they pull that hard I've found the best way is to let them fight themselves and wait it out, if you always drop the contact you end up with a horse who cant accept contact or respect the bit boundary and be light and imo you shouldnt engage in a fight. He tore my core muscles and hurt my SI joint. He doesn't do that now and hasn't for quite some time but I wouldn't ride him without a noseband because he's the type of horse who completely assesses a situation and a rider and figures them out very quickly. It honestly shocks me, I'll have a great ride and he feels spectacularly light and easy and I'll put someone else on and they cant get him to go, on the bit, or he flat out refuses to be ridden or he fights them even if they do nothing wrong. Point being I want him to respect the bit boundary and not pull on my hands which he doesn't anymore and I don't want it to ever become a thing again and I also do not like being bolted off with, so I have a noseband and flash. It's not set tight, he can open his mouth but it puts a limit on how far he can open it.

This horse is also a workaholic. During winter he was a 2hrs a day, 6 days a week type of horse. It's not naughtiness, he's not a bad horse, just intense and hard driving. Also has an INSANELY strong hind end, he has so much power in his push off from the hind end. Never ridden a horse with that kind of push off power. Ridden PREs, drafts, high end warmbloods, halflingers, friesians and crosses, etc and FEI ponies. I think the FEI ponies are the closest in push off power. The ponies are harder driving than the big wbs. My point in mentioning that is organizing that kind of power takes a LOT of core strength and good timing on the riders part, if you have a horse like him his anxiousness can result in tension and it takes a LOT to try to relax and get him to have a more elastic, supple way of going. Tension can also lead to mouthiness and more tension vs being able to ride through the tense phases and come back to relaxation and lightness. Not all horses are consistent throughout a ride and different moments you need part of equipment. That said I'd rather have my noseband and flash to assist me in creating relaxation then to fight through for an ideology, I dont need it all the time but I have it when I need it if that makes sense and I think prevents further tension because as stated above if horse gapes it's mouth pressure is applied, so they learn not to gape. It also can prevent mouth issues and evasions.

How my noseband is set, clearly you could fit fingers in the nose band and flash. In Denmark we also set nosebands and flashes like this. It is illegal to have a noseband too tight. I cant remember how many fingers but at least 2. Also to show how much this horses pushes off his hind end to give an idea about the amount of organization it takes and why it might help to have a nose band at times, when he over powers and charges it's ALWAYS from behind and A LOT to organize. Note I'm 5'7 170cm tall. And long legged, he's 17h


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

@DanteDressageNerd, I understand and accept your explanation.... but I am guessing that at least 80% of horses wearing those nosebands are doing so because they are included with bridles and are part of a look, not because there is any point to them. Probably a lot of them are cranked really tight for the same stupid reason. 

For example my horse used to get her tongue over the bit when she was greener. I'd just keep trotting and wait for her to re-adjust her mouth. Once she worked through trying out all the possible options for carrying the bit, she stopped doing it. She isn't like your horse!


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

It's really funny @loosie that you ask this. U stalkin me? I asked another one of my instructors yday about drop nosebands as that share pony has one. She said that the flash noseband and the drop noseband provide the same use BUT that traditional nosebands allow for a standing martingale to be used. I never seen a standing martingale used before but apparently it connects directly to the noseband which is not good in combo with a drop? 

When I worked at the RDA place I asked the manager why THIS specific horse had a drop noseband over a normal one like all the others - she said that for this horse the drop noseband only came into play when she was naughty whereas a flash noseband was a "permanent fixture" so to speak. 

Again I do not know if the above is dictionary correct but thought it pretty cool.

edit: also I am not into drop nosebands or flash (not the same as being adamantly against them) as I really like to see the horse's head as naked as possible. I agree if there is a problem with the bit or their mouth there is a _problem_ and logically would need solving. Like Katie went better in a crank (when cranked, which I am against and consequently removed from her bridle altogether forever hereon) however that would have just further compounded her problems by masking them more.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

My dressage trainer has a couple of bridles that have the flash attached and can't be removed. So when using those on a horse she doesn't actually need them on, she'll leave them very loose. I occasionally use one on Patti, she tends to have a 'busy' mouth and some days she's just ...... busy busy. I'll put the drop on her so that she limits her business, still not tight but snugged enough to keep her from gaping and putting her tongue over the bit. Most days she's fine, but she gets nervous or emotional and her mouth starts going.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Avna said:


> @DanteDressageNerd, I understand and accept your explanation.... but I am guessing that at least 80% of horses wearing those nosebands are doing so because they are included with bridles and are part of a look, not because there is any point to them. Probably a lot of them are cranked really tight for the same stupid reason.


That is so true. The bridles we use are designed a little different and have a noseband which they consider a dropped noseband. I myself have no use for that however I do find the benefits of the rest of the bridle construction to be fantastic! and no one else offers that, so the noseband has to stay. Having said that we also don't use it the way they likely want most of society to use it - blood sucking tight. Ours is there because it is part of the bridle and it literally is closed to be there. It's loose enough you can easily fit many fingers, allow the horse to graze etc etc without it being a safety issue either. 

Unfortunately on the same token due to lack of education, you will see riders that are using it because its there and by default close it as tight as humanly possible because they don't understand the purpose of it and its effects. 

To each our own. Education is key and that's what the riding community needs to do is to ask questions that are educational in purpose.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Myself, I have no use for any kind noseband that I can think of, so I take them off. I don't know what club I am supposed to look like I'm a member of. As usual. My horse usually has a trail halter under her bridle anyway.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Here is a good article on the history of dropped nosebands. Notice the most commonly given reason for them was to keep the mouth shut.

Noseband Special: Part I: The History of the Noseband

There is also good reason for concern:


> Only 7% of the nosebands were loose enough to be classified as two-finger tightness, Doherty said. There were 19% at the 1.5-finger level and 23% at the 1-finger level. However, the vast majority—44%—were so tight that even the tip of the gauge could not fit under the noseband at the frontal nasal plane. Researchers found the tightest nosebands among the eventers, with dressage horses following close behind. The lowest level of tightness occurred among performance hunter classes, she said.
> 
> https://thehorse.com/18504/noseband-tightness-in-competition-evaluated/


Folks need to figure out what works best for their horse and situation, but strong & excited horses existed long before 1980. George Morris wrote in the 1990s about thoroughbreds vs warmbloods. He suggested - if I understood him correctly - the solution for hot horses was "equine tact", not "equine tack". That said, I've found a curb bit can be a useful training tool to stay safe long enough to build good habits. They are also good bits for a lot of the riding I do. That they can be misused doesn't mean they have no use. Perhaps the dropped nosebands are like that - used a lot more often than needed.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

An actual drop, not a flash, is good for young horses as its position removes any pressure from the changing molars. They should be loose enough that the horse can take a cookie still.

It can help prevent or fix jaw crossing and tongue flipping, and provides stabilization of the bit. I've used a drop nose and myself on my horse when he was young. He picked up the habit to flip his tongue at the lightest contact. A month in the drop and he learned to quietly take contact and could go back to a French cavasson. 

The Spanish Riding School exclusively uses drop nosebands on their stallions.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

my2geldings said:


> Unfortunately on the same token due to lack of education, you will see riders that are using it because its there and by default close it as tight as humanly possible because they don't understand the purpose of it and its effects.





Avna said:


> My horse usually has a trail halter under her bridle anyway.


So...I like or have comment to add to these...

my2geldings...It is so sadly true that today many do not know the proper use, adjustment of equipment they, the rider chose to put on their mount...but the rider subjects the animal to use, misuse of, or abuse by not being a informed equestrian partner.
avna...
If you are riding with a trail-bridle anything like what I see used here, then you do have a noseband on the halter section to the trail-bridle...
If you're riding with a halter of any design under your bridle, then you do have a noseband still on, maybe not engaged like some others, but it is there doing something whether you realize or not.









 

If you are only riding with the headstall carrier then you more resemble the one-ear bridle of western riders...yet those riders commonly have a curb bit and strap for communication and those bridles some of them also have a throatlatch strap.









I don't like one-ear headstalls _{seen below}_ as my horses I swear can cock an ear, shake their head and be standing looking at me head naked...no thanks. :icon_rolleyes:









There are many varieties of mosebands...
To me a noseband is conventional in appearance, a band that conforms to the face, held on its own thin strap and goes around the muzzle just below the cheekbone structure.








Adjusted so the horse can breathe easily but tight enough 2 fingers can be inserted gently between face and leather strap..._no tighter._
I do ride with a standing martingale on occasion and when properly adjusted they *do not* interfere with way of movement but is a safety catch for the horse who would otherwise bloody my face and break my facial bones with a violent head-toss.
This style to me can be multi-purpose and use...








This is a drop-noseband that I grew up occasionally using on a few horses.
Shown loose, actually very low on the face but you can see the side-ring where the angle changes from a conventional style to the drooped, literally the noseband is dropped down the face to a lower height and then the buckle is made to encompass the mouth and bit around the back of the jaw.
When you compare the positioning though of a conventional to a dropped noseband there is a large difference in look and what the job of the equipment is meant and needed/made to do.








This picture depicts the dropped, grackle, flash and conventional nosebands in that order.
As you can see they are all different and have a purpose specific to the horses needs for best communication.
I also have the add-on attachment that can make the flash without having the carrier loop be present all the time...this style also will allow that standing martingale be safely attached to the conventional noseband not to the mouth strap. 
I don't own a true bridle as dressage riders use nor do I have a grackle or any of the other newer styles seen today...I have no need nor want of them.

A noseband to me _does_ have purpose...
I was taught it helps to stabilize the bit in the mouth.
Offers jaw support to the horse.
Keeps a horse from crossing its jaw, a evasion tactic some learn.
Can help prevent a pull-through of a bit.
Helps to keep a horse mouth quiet and less likelihood of tongue placing over the bit happening.
Offers aesthetics to a face to hide, emphasize, break-up long and ugly to pop a sculpted head and balance a profile.
And dang, yesterday out riding my horse rubbed his headstall and broke his leather bit cheeckpiece...I rode safely back to the trailer using that noseband I then buckled my reins to...it would of been a long walk home otherwise.:frown_color:

In the right hands your equipment can be a plus, used incorrectly it can be abusive or cruel...
The knowledge of which to use, why and when, and how to use it correctly though is what sadly today many do not take the time to learn.
It is a fad to have horses heads in gadgetry many do not need, same as using the fad bit of this months flavor.
Horses are individuals and should be treated as such.
Pick the equipment that gives you the best communication between man and beast with the least seen and applied.
There is a trend...not always good, not always bad.
There is a reason to each piece of equipment and a way to have it used correctly and why.
It is our job as equestrians to learn the reason behind the gimmick and hype of each, to understand how to apply and why and then how to use it the right way when astride to emphasize and help our mount be their best and it is our job to do the same, be the best so we ride in harmony together.
Knowing your horse, their needs and yours is what must be taken together into consideration.
For one, no noseband is right.
For another having several choices needing used is right.
For all though, _it needs to be because the horse works best in i_t...a individual not a cookie-cutter fad statement.
ApuetsoT ans bsms...both very good points.
_You just knew you were going to get a book..:lol: :hide:._
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm bewildered by the idea that a drop noseband stabilizes the bit. After all, the horses I've ridden and met haven't had the bit flopping around in their mouths! It is stable because the horse supports it with his tongue, typically without tension on the lips. They don't open their mouths, gape, thrash, etc. Heck, they act relaxed in the dreaded Tom Thumb even, so...why does the bit need "support"?

I realize it is often TAUGHT that it stabilizes the bit, but I'd LOVE to see evidence it does. Sounds to me like what people tell other people because it sounds so much better than "My horse tries to get rid of the bit"...which would then lead to the embarrassing question, "Why?"


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

BSMS I dont know how it would stabilize the bit, I have heard that too and maybe it does with a loose ring vs and eggbutt. An eggbutt is more stable than a loose ring but many use the loose ring in dressage for a more active mouth and salvation to encourage chewing. But some horses find that "noise" irritating and so an eggbutt is used. 

It's actually illegal to show in dressage without a noseband. With the kandar or double bridle there is a noseband but no flash and drops are not allowed with the kandar. However there is an art to bit selection, as well as to use the kandar effectively and for the right reasons. However once a horse and rider hit the FEI levels they are required to show in a kandar, however many school in both. I sometimes get irritated when people criticize riders for favoring the kandar because I've known horses that go better in a kandar than a snaffle and some GP horses who favor the snaffle. It depends on what the horse prefers and goes better in, so I dont think having a horse in a snaffle is a virtue per say. Though I think sometimes people will use a kandar in an attempt to mask faults but I think you can see those faults even with the kandar on. If a horse doesnt know how to use it's neck or accept contact correctly kandar or not, it is apparent and the kandar wont fix those basics. Similarly a flash isnt necessarily a "quick fix" or a mask for bad hands or issues. Sometimes it's just the piece of equipment the horse goes best in or for safety. And it wont entirely fix a problem, a horse can evade with a noseband or lock it's jaw much more easily with one than without and resist against a rider. I think some of the time they are just an extra piece of equipment that isn't necessary. I've also ridden horses that go far better in the french cavesson or drop or nothing at all. Ive had a few I broke who didn't go in any cavesson but later had to adjust to one because show rules dictate they have to at least have a french cavesson. 

In Germany the nosebands and flashes were WAY WAY too tight (you will not find this in Denmark). It made me cringe but they do it to lock the horses jaw, so they can have no say or opinion and they do not often care if tack fits or not. And of course it depends on the barn and individual but I remember when there every horse went in a very tight crank and noseband for submission. As in if I didn't adjust tighter than I want to they would tighten it tight enough that it took two people to pry it off. So while there I just tightened them tighter than I like but looser than they do so that wouldn't happen again. I remember riding a GP horse there that was so tight in the body and jaw it couldnt supple or carry itself in a correct outline what so ever. Couldnt get him to soften, no matter the laterals I tried. It is really quite incredible the sort of evasions horses figure out from rough riding, then others become so complacent and switched off that when riding them it no longer feels like a conversation but a dictation of obedience on a machine taught to accept buttons. A noseband, flash, etc used incorrectly can do that. Then you have horses who cannot be beaten, whipped or shackled into submission and those are the ones that get thrown out of certain programs or systems and you hope fall into the right hands or into a good situation or else they are abuse or slaughter candidates. It's all about finding what is best for the horse, not for a system or for a rider to cause harm. I like throw away horses and when you have them you have to adjust your methods and find the way they are happiest, regardless of what noseband. You adjust for them, not the other way around. I mention this because equipment is only as good or as bad as how it is used and I think there are more important things that occur in conversation between the horse and rider that is more important than strictly what is on the horse's head. However I strongly agree with horselovingguy that people need to educate themselves and figure out why they have the equipment they do and WHY they use it.

New Rule for Noseband Tightness for Competition Horses in Denmark
Noseband Special: Part IV: The Thicker, the Wider, the Better?

Also and I know BSMS posted the 1st one
Noseband Special: Part I: The History of the Noseband
Noseband Special: Part II: The Purpose of the Noseband
Noseband Special: Part III: Riders and Trainers on Their Choice in Noseband


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

bsms said:


> I'm bewildered by the idea that a drop noseband stabilizes the bit.



This is a "tool", just a tool that some horses need, some do not...some learned how to hold and mouth a bit and some have not yet learned to do this consistently, quietly...
We are all teaching and educating our horses with every interaction done with them.
With every piece of equipment we use on them, with them... correctly or incorrectly.
It is just another learning tool in the arsenal a good teacher can help their student to utilize and learn with/from.
Just as a good teacher of children has to have many methods to reach different children the same concept, we the rider must also have "tools" to teach our horses.
A tool to carry a message needing taught and understood so you can reach for the next pinnacle.

:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

@horselovingguy, my trail riding gear is a plain sturdy leather western bridle with a throatlatch. I don't like split ears for the same reason you don't. I like the idea of those combo halter-bridles, just don't have one. If my bridle broke I'd ride home in my halter without a problem. 

I have no quarrel with nosebands per se. They just seem like a piece of equipment more often misunderstood and misused than not.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

horselovinguy said:


> ...Just as a good teacher of children has to have many methods to reach different children the same concept, we the rider must also have "tools" to teach our horses...


 Yet I've never seen a western rider who needed this tool. Which, honestly, makes me suspect it is a tool needed, if at all, for a more aggressive approach to the use of the bit. And dropped nosebands, the ones that go below the bit, were largely unknown before 1980, and almost totally unknown before 1960. The cavalries of the world taught stallions to go into combat without using them. So...what did they do different? How did they 'stabilize' the bit? Seems more like a band-aid that became a fad rather than a needed tool.

PS: Nosebands above the bit kind of look nice. Not sure what they do, but they look kind of nice. That would be reason enough for them in my book. I'll also admit a lot of folks got upset when I used a curb bit to get Mia to stop bolting, but it worked well and she eventually ended up in a bosal. Used one with Bandit and we're now happy bitless. So...just because something seems odd or unnecessary to me doesn't rule out others finding them helpful. I freely admit that!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

bsms said:


> Yet I've never seen a western rider who needed this tool.


Right...this is not a "tool" used by a western rider but by a English rider...

We could go round and round when you bring other subjects into the fray about how horses were trained and used in olden days..
Yeah, cowboys also saddled a bronk and rode it out or killed it trying to get it tame...
You can _not_ compare old to today, not in this.
I'm not taking this thread off on a tangent, so am bowing out.
I bid you :wave: on the topic bsms.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._

Returning to...._*purpose of drop nosebands?*_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

No noseband will stop a horse from getting its tongue over the bit if it so wants. 

If you chase your teeth together you can still draw your tongue back and move it around in your mouth, ditto with a horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@DanteDressageNerd


just reading your description of the horrendously tight nosebands makes me cringe. Can you imagine what it must feel like to have a cold metal thing put into your mouth, then a leather strap tightened over your cheeks and jaw so tight that you cannot adjust that metal thing even a milimeter? that you feel your breath will be cut off? that your instincts of claustrophobia are triggered? 



Being someone who feels claustrophobic and afraid of my mouth being held shut, I can totally relate, . . . and cringe. . to think of that.


the other day a barnmate was heading out on her very old warmblood for a ride, and I petted the horse's head and said 'have a nice ride', and at that moment I felt how stranglingly tight the noseband was, and how the bit was shoved way up into the old gent's mouth. I flashed for moment, "Should I say something?". I hardly knew her, and its' been a lifelong work in progress for me to try not to give out uninvited advice. So, I didn't say anything. But, it means nothing changes for that horse.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

ApuetsoT said:


> <snip>
> The Spanish Riding School exclusively uses drop nosebands on their stallions.


Can you show me evidence of this? I googled it and only see a few. Mostly not.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Avna said:


> Can you show me evidence of this? I googled it and only see a few. Mostly not.


I mispoke a bit. Their double bridles do not use drop noseband. Their traditional snaffle bridle uses a drop and fulmer.

TACKROOM - Spanish Riding School
Do a ctl+f for Spanish in these two.
Noseband Special: Part III: Riders and Trainers on Their Choice in Noseband
Noseband Special: Part I: The History of the Noseband


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I use a dropped nose band on my gelding. He's western riding trained. Nose band is adjusted tightly so he can't gap his mouth opened. Can't put a finger between nose band and his jaw.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

ApuetsoT said:


> The Spanish Riding School exclusively uses drop nosebands on their stallions.





Avna said:


> Can you show me evidence of this? I googled it and only see a few. Mostly not.


I actually went and looked closely at many of the pictures, not the videos..
Many of the horses are ridden with drop nosebands...not a flash but a drop.
You do not have to capture the mouth to utilize a drop but you can.

Many of the horses have a lowered, drop noseband used.
A few had the flash band below the mouth...
The older stallions, the finest of the pure white ones that ride the precision drill team I see it missing from...as training progresses and is a "fait accompli" maybe not needed when ingrained in the brain and movements done??
I found you this... https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/tack--apparel/horse-nosebands-11817
_*Drop Noseband*
Other name: Hanoverian
Invented by a German trainer who worked at the Spanish Riding School, this noseband encircles the horse's nose at a lower point than its regular counterpart: below the bit and at a point parallel to the horse's chin groove, yet still resting on the nasal bone.Worn properly, this noseband is a clear reminder for your horse to keep his mouth closed and prevents him from crossing his jaw. It's a popular aid in training young horses who are just learning to accept the bit. The drop used to be quite popular in dressage, but that has given way to crank-with-flash combinations. Some riders and trainers say that the drop's low position on the nose makes it less flattering to the look of their horses' heads and attribute its decrease in popularity to that. The drop's placement also makes it unsuitable for ?attaching a martingale._


Then I found this...
According to the TACKROOM..._TACKROOM - Spanish Riding School_
They* are* ridden with drop nosebands.
Some are also ridden with a double bridle with double bit.
Looking at the exquisite tack room of the school makes me drool...
:runninghorse2:...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

What the Spanish Riding School needs, or a world class competitor riding a very difficult horse needs, is irrelevant to the needs of the average rider. How does one train a horse to do this:










Horse or unicorn? Amazing flying Lipzzaner stallions leap into the air at spectacular annual fundraising gala | Daily Mail Online​ 
Honestly, does it matter? How many posters on HF are ever going to TRY to teach their horse to do that? How can a world class eventer deal with a very difficult but very gifted horse? Don't know, but it wouldn't mean the average rider needs to follow their example!

What is the bit of choice for a world class barrel racer running a very difficult but gifted horse? I don't know, but I know a lot of horrible bits are sold over the Internet or at our local tack shop to people who are NOT world class anything. What genius does to achieve the unimaginable isn't always what average riders of average horses ought to imitate.

Also see: 

Noseband Special: Part II: The Purpose of the Noseband

Noseband Special: Part III: Riders and Trainers on Their Choice in Noseband


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> What the Spanish Riding School needs, or a world class competitor riding a very difficult horse needs, is irrelevant to the needs of the average rider. How does one train a horse to do this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Only the best of their stallion graduate to Haut Ecole. The spanish riding school is(or at least was) looked at as one of the purer dressage school so many average riders do try to emulate their practices. I, myself, started my horse in a fulmer partly because they do. 

If you understand why they use the tool, why not use it? Comparing a harsh barrel racing bit to a drop nosebands is unfair. You don't need to be an expert to use a drop.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"If you understand why they use the tool, why not use it? Comparing a harsh barrel racing bit to a drop nosebands is unfair. You don't need to be an expert to use a drop."

Answer: "_Doherty, in collaboration with colleagues, including Paul McGreevy, BVSc, PhD, MRCVS, MACVSc, professor of animal behavior and animal welfare science at the University of Sydney, in New South Wales, Australia, evaluated 750 competing horses in three countries. ...

...Only 7% of the nosebands were loose enough to be classified as two-finger tightness, Doherty said. There were 19% at the 1.5-finger level and 23% at the 1-finger level. However, the vast majority—44%—were so tight that even the tip of the gauge could not fit under the noseband at the frontal nasal plane. Researchers found the tightest nosebands among the eventers, with dressage horses following close behind. The lowest level of tightness occurred among performance hunter classes, she said._

https://thehorse.com/18504/noseband-...ion-evaluated/"

The SRS, from what I read, requires a 2-finger gap, or bigger. But it seems many are not using them that way. 67% at one finger or less.

I'm a podunk rider who is 4 for 4 in getting horses to ride relaxed in a Tom Thumb bit, but that doesn't mean I'm happy about how many are sold. Or how many curb bits are used, although I think a western curb bit can be an extremely gentle approach to riding. But while I admire a well-ridden western curb bit, I also acknowledge it is often abused.

I also think a horse who opens his mouth and tries to evade the bit is telling his rider something worth knowing. Forcing him to keep his mouth shut prevents the rider from learning. A great rider may already understand and know when and how to use an override. It seems many ordinary riders, including those competing, do not.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

That quote isn't differentiating between noseband types. I think we all are very aware of the trend of over tightened nosebands. I'd be surprised if they saw more than a handful drop nosebands during the study (drops, not flashes) seeing how rare they are now. Drops are less likely to be used as a fashion statement or as following the norm, I wouldn't be shocked if on average the drop noseband is looser than other types as there is usually more thought behind their use now.

Someone who follows a school like the spanish riding school likely isn't going to be cranking their horse's mouth shut with a drop.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Another lively debate! 

IMO the dropped noseband was used to keep the mouth closed on the bit to increase effectiveness of the bit. At the time of my youth it was mostly seen on jumpers/eventers as they can get quite strong. 

Dressage had the regular noseband, then the crank, then the flash (if I remember correctly :wink: ) 

The crank was in fact cranked down in an effort to keep the jaw closed. It was moderately successful, but the flash placed very tightly worked better (but not used with a double bridle, so back to the crank, lol) 

I used to have my nosebands too loose to suit many instructors, and they would check my bridle prior to a ride and then tighten them up. I learned to adjust my bridle so it looked tight but was actually just resting on the horse with no air gaps...

I used a flash for a whole year, but my competition horse HATED it and honestly I got tired of cleaning a piece of leather full of slobber. So I took it off and he did better. Never used a flash attachment again, but all my bridles came with them. I would just cut the little loop off and go on. 

Then there was a change of fashion, and some instructors started checking bridles and loosening the flash! They would get surprised when they saw I didn't have one, and I just would smile and say my horse didn't like them. 

I do not believe my lack of a flash affected my scores in a negative way, and honestly just didn't care. I got very good scores generally. 

IMO a noseband is attractive on a horse and I try to size the noseband to fit the horse's head. I have put a horse in a crank before, but only because they are fatter and looked good on a extra large head, and it was never cranked tight! 

Now I ride with a rope halter under a snap on biothane headstall. I plan to purchase a biothane halter to snap it to instead of the rope one, only because I have concerns that if the horse got loose the rope would tighten and not break. The fittings on halters break, so am thinking of his safety. 

The noseband is a strictly English style thing, and I do see young western horses gapping their mouths at times, so IMO a noseband can help most young horses to accept the bit but then can be removed for general riding. 

Most trail riders prefer some sort of halter or noseband when riding for tying up the horse. It is convenient to have it right there and not change head gear.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> ...PS: Nosebands above the bit kind of look nice. Not sure what they do, but they look kind of nice. That would be reason enough for them in my book.


This is why I use a noseband. My horse doesn't have the prettiest head in the world, and he looks better with a noseband on. It's high and loose, just for looks. 

In my opinion, young horses don't _need_ a noseband to teach them not to gape their mouths open. It's not like you see all these older horses gaping their mouths and you say, "Hmm, they must not have used a noseband when they were starting out." 

What I've found more helpful than putting a noseband on is to be flexible about changing bits. Many people think every horse should go in a certain bit, and if the horse shows signs of dislike, shut the horse's mouth. I've found that horses can be highly individualized about what bit they like. My one mare would have chewed and gaped until the end of time in a single-jointed mouthpiece, but put her in a thin french-link, and she was quiet. No noseband needed. 

My current horse likes a bit with no breaks in the mouthpiece, but it has to have a low, wide port. I tried a higher port and he didn't like that. He chewed and put his head low in a few bits we tried, but went quiet when we put in this mouthpiece. He doesn't like any type of single or double joint, lozenge or french link, regardless of cheek piece. 

But just because a horse likes a bit, that doesn't mean you can control them in it. As with @DanteDressageNerd's horse she had to turn into the wall. 

I won't speak to dressage, because the rules create limitations, but for horses going out and/or jumping, a person would be better served with a different bit (or hackamore) on the hotter, stronger horses than a noseband. It's my personal philosophy to keep searching until I find a mouthpiece that the horse likes (as evidenced by facial expression, holding the bit comfortably on the tongue, keeping the mouth closed except for on occasion), and then finding what the horse will respond to. If they run through it, try something else. 

For example, my OTTB has been on the track and he knows all about how much he will feel in a snaffle, how much he can run and push through the pressure. In a kimberwicke with mild curb action, he is very responsive. In a regular snaffle, I have a lot of horse pushing forward if he gets excited, and I have to turn him tightly to slow him. A noseband with the snaffle is not going to be as effective as just leaving a noseband out of it and putting him in a different bit, one that he carries well and doesn't argue about.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> @DanteDressageNerd
> 
> 
> just reading your description of the horrendously tight nosebands makes me cringe. Can you imagine what it must feel like to have a cold metal thing put into your mouth, then a leather strap tightened over your cheeks and jaw so tight that you cannot adjust that metal thing even a milimeter? that you feel your breath will be cut off? that your instincts of claustrophobia are triggered? .



Again a misconception, they can move the bit around in their mouth. 

I have used both drop, and grackle nosebands - fitted correctly, mostly for helping a horse to stop crossing their jaw.


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## unclearthur (Feb 25, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> Again a misconception, they can move the bit around in their mouth.
> 
> I have used both drop, and grackle nosebands - fitted correctly, mostly for helping a horse to stop crossing their jaw.


They can't swallow, though, because the lower jaw needs to move to get the tongue back. That's why they dribble so much.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

bsms said:


> What the Spanish Riding School needs, or a world class competitor riding a very difficult horse needs, is irrelevant to the needs of the average rider. How does one train a horse to do this:





Can truthfully say I have ever trained a horse to do the capriole but have untrained many that do it naturally!​


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

unclearthur said:


> They can't swallow, though, because the lower jaw needs to move to get the tongue back. That's why they dribble so much.



Well I cannot say I have noticed a horse wearing a drop noseband salivates more than one without.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Avna said:


> Myself, I have no use for any kind noseband that I can think of, so I take them off. I don't know what club I am supposed to look like I'm a member of. As usual. My horse usually has a trail halter under her bridle anyway.


Ditto. I dont understand why, if there is not a specific, good reason, you'd put stuff on the horse unnecessarily, esp all over the sensitive face. 

IME there's usually a good reason, whether the person can see it or not, for the horse to 'argue' about something anyway. Coming from a scene where nosebands aren't the norm, I've been more used to considering what's wrong & working to change the cause rather than just stopping the symptom, if a horse opens their mouth, puts their tongue over the bit, tosses their head, whatever. Maybe it's his teeth or other mouth issues, maybe the bit, the hands on the reins, something else. Maybe it's conditioned response due to previous pain or bad training...

Regarding the use of dropped nose bands as a preventative, it seems to be the way, in my experience that the more you restrict a horse, with noseband, martingale, 'strong' bit for eg, the more you give him something to argue about. In retraining or working with horses who's owners have told me they aren't controllable without that sort of thing, I've generally found the less restrictions the better. Never say never, but generally.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

horselovinguy said:


> This is a "tool", just a tool that some horses need, some do not...some learned how to hold and mouth a bit and some have not yet


The thing about this argument is that it only seems to be 'needed' by English riders - it doesn't seen rational to me that even 'some horses' need it, when Australian & western - and presumably most everywhere else that don't use drop nose bands - just don't. What's really going on that makes it so hard for the horse to accept the bit communication 'quietly'?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

horselovinguy said:


> Right...this is not a "tool" used by a western rider but by a English rider...
> 
> We could go round and round when you bring other subjects into the fray about how horses were trained and used in olden days..
> Yeah, cowboys also saddled a bronk and rode it out or killed it trying to get it tame...
> ...


Don't bow out HLG, I value your input. But on this one, I'm absolutely with bsms that his comments about western riders & trainers of old are not in the least off on a tangent, but absolutely relevant. Perhaps couldn't be more so.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

...And I'm getting the idea that, while as with almost anything, they can be used appropriately, but my original assumption that they are just for tying the mouth shut whhewhen the horse is not quietly accepting the bit was indeed correct after all. No one seems to have given any other reason.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> ...And I'm getting the idea that, while as with almost anything, they can be used appropriately, but my original assumption that they are just for tying the mouth shut whhewhen the horse is not quietly accepting the bit was indeed correct after all. No one seems to have given any other reason.


I think the difference lies in how it is approached. Yes, nosebands close the mouth. Cranking up the noseband and ignoring the problem isn't right. I think that is distinct from using a noseband temporarily to stop a habit so a new one can be formed, without cranking it shut.
When I used the drop, I wasn't educated enough to quickly fix the evasion myself. My options were to let him continue flipping his tongue and hope it went away/I could fix it on my own and risk cementing the habit, or use a loose drop to stop the habit while he learned how to take my hand. Once month later he's never had any mouth evasions since. 
Kind of like a martingale.
Or when a horse prefers the feeling of one type over another.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

I actually went to look up what I could find about the drop noseband online. I've only ever seen one in person, and that was roughly 15 years ago. This is what I've found:

::: Sustainable Dressage - Tack & Auxillary Equipment - The Bridle & the Bit :::


I prefer a plain noseband personally. I like mine to be well padded. I used to HATE crank nosebands since it was associated with trying to cram the mouth closed. I've honestly switched sides and now LOVE a crank. My nosebands are notoriously loose so my horses are allowed opinions, but the crank noseband adds a bit more padding under the jaw. In a regular noseband I was having rubbing issues on my mare no matter how snug or loose it was. With the crank and extra padding, she's much quieter. We also sampled tons of bits, and I have at least a dozen or so at home that are "failed" bits. We FINALLY found one she loved and was legal for Dressage. Personally, my noseband is only on there because it's in the rules it must be there. But I have them so loose they wouldn't come into action really, unless the horse is REALLY gaping. In which case, I've done something massively wrong to cause that. Both of my bridles have the flash attachment still on them, but my mare HATES flashes, and we've never tried one with our gelding. I'm not a huge fan of flashes, so I just leave the strap off.

These were taken in an In Hand class. The gelding was playing with his bit; no it's not fit that high up in his mouth. And yes, my husband was holding him too close to his jaw. He was corrected when I saw it.



















The gelding is hard to see how loose his is, but you can see a bit on the mare. I can fit at least two fingers under the noseband. And it's only there because the rules say to use it.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Really good conversation going. Love the different input everyone has. Continuing on reading...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> The thing about this argument is that it only seems to be 'needed' by English riders - it doesn't seen rational to me that even 'some horses' need it, when Australian & western - and presumably most everywhere else that don't use drop nose bands - just don't. What's really going on that makes it so hard for the horse to accept the bit communication 'quietly'?





loosie said:


> ...And I'm getting the idea that, while as with almost anything, they can be used appropriately, but my original assumption that they are just for tying the mouth shut whhewhen the horse is not quietly accepting the bit was indeed correct after all. No one seems to have given any other reason.


I know that I've never used a drop until we started doing dressage. Patti was not happy with the bit in the beginning and developed the habit of gaping and flipping her tongue. We did teeth, we measured palate, we had the vet look for abnormalities and she just didn't want to accept the bit. She has come a very long way and 99% of the time now, it isn't needed, we just gave her time to develop another habit. HOWEVER, when we're going to a competition, if she gets emotional or nervous, she'll start the busy mouth stuff. Well, in Western Dressage, a roller bit isn't legal, anything that isn't absolutely smooth isn't legal, so she will start to chomp and gape. The dressage judges hate it and will mark her way down, regardless of how well the rest of the test goes. So, we'll put the drop on her for a little while to give her time to settle down and quit being fussy. Once she does, it comes off. So I think that's why you think only English (or Classical Dressage) people need it, and western doesn't. Western doesn't penalize you if the horse plays with his bit, in fact a roller bit is usually given as a good idea for a young or green horse, gives them something to do. Since the advent of Western Dressage, western horses are now starting to need it.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I had one on my bridle (came with it), but took it off. No need for it IMO.  Not necessary to me, at least for my horse.

Just the regular plain 'ole noseband works for me. 2 finger rule as well.


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

I've never used a drop noseband before, but have seen them being used. Could the micklem bridle be considered a drop noseband type fit? A lot of people used them on TB's at my old barn and said their horses seemed happier in them. I'm with @Tazzie , I converted to the crank noseband as well. They seem to have a bad reputation, but I think the extra padding is more comfortable for the horse and I keep mine pretty loose as well. I just don't see the purpose in a tight noseband, dropped or not.

I am working with a "baby" right now in a loose ring and he likes to play with the bit A LOT. I thought about using a flash to create some stability but then decided against it when I realized that the more I kept him forward and engaged, the quieter he got. Every horse is different, and I'm not against using a flash. I used one on my last horse just because I liked the way it looked, but I could put a finger between it and he could still open his mouth plenty.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> . Well, in Western Dressage, a roller bit isn't legal, anything that isn't absolutely smooth isn't legal, so she will start to chomp and gape. The dressage judges hate it and will mark her way down, regardless of how well the rest of the test goes.



This, Fergie yawns, especially when we get to loose rein work, and she will gape in the test. We have experimented at home and even when I have the tiniest bit of contact she will gape. It has become a habit, and yes she gets marked down for it, even though she is not resisting as such. I have wondered about putting a drop on her for schooling, and see is we can install a new habit. First step is to find a snaffle that she likes, and then go from there.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> ... So I think that's why you think only English (or Classical Dressage) people need it, and western doesn't. Western doesn't penalize you if the horse plays with his bit...Since the advent of Western Dressage, western horses are now starting to need it.


At the risk of offending some...I notice a trend here. Horses who are supposed to be ridden with constant contact, or where the bit is used extensively, are associated with dropped nosebands. Styles of riding where the horse is given more freedom, where a bit is used intermittently, are not.

It seems like it is a tool to 'help' get the horse "on the bit". Those of us who cannot imagine asking a horse to go "on the bit" are bewildered why anyone uses them. So coming at this from as an outsider, perhaps the "Purpose of Drop Nosebands" is to encourage the horse to accept the higher and more frequent bit pressures used in some equine sports?

That isn't meant as a criticism. I just finished a trail ride with Bandit. When I got him 3 years ago, he would have freaked out in dozens of places he strolled thru today. It has taken a lot of work to get him to calmly accept and maybe even enjoy doing things that were once too stressful for him. It felt so good to have a fundamentally sane, relaxed, willing horse under me...but he didn't wake up one day like that. Over the last three years, he's been urged (not forced) to do things he found uncomfortable. The learning process has been stressful at times, but the end result may be a horse who can spend the next 15 years enjoying going out in the desert, running, trotting, checking things out.

I don't value the things that would require more use of the bit. But for those who do, maybe a noseband can help get the horse "over the hump" and in to a more relaxed, confident state. And like any tool, it can also then be abused by unthinking, uncaring people - like the people who buy a western curb bit without understanding how to use it humanely.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

I think every horse responds differently to nosebands and bits and I’ll never say never when it comes to what’s required to communicate with them; although, I’ll always aim for as little equipment as possible. Nosebands have their place if used appropriately and temporarily and not as a torture device used to replace basic schooling. If they’re going to be used then they need to be loose enough to allow a release of pressure for positive reinforcement. 

My gelding came with a drop noseband and I quickly realised that he’d no need for it and either rode him in a cavesson or a bridle with a headcollar underneath. Sometimes with no bridle or headcollar; I’d just hang on to his mane. I was advised to put a grackle on one of my mares and the result was constant fussing and head shaking. 

Unfortunately, a lot of amateur riders see the professionals riding in certain way and use the same methods to sort out their own problems. 

An interesting study published in Plos One, found that just under half of dressage and event riders at national and international level in Europe, had their nosebands overtight – less than two fingers, some with no room. Eventers were the worst of the bunch. 

Reasons for the tightness included preventing gaping which is penalised in a dressage competition and increasing sensitivity to the bit. 

Tightness was not dependent on the stage of training, which suggested that it was a pre-emptive measure rather than corrective. 

It suggested that it had a tourniquet action which impacts on arteries, veins and nerves which can be linked to head shaking and numbness; and, 

Tightness was being used by the majority of UK riders to improve sensitivity to the bit rather than proper schooling.




It doesn’t take much for bad practice to filter down to the average rider.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> So I think that's why you think only English (or Classical Dressage) people need it, and western doesn't.


Depends on your classical school. I just moved to a new barn and the trainer there does French classical. Think I'm one of the few people there who ride with noseband (because he looks ugly without one!). They want their horses moving the jaw and being mobile.
It's more fair to say competitive dressage doesn't want the mouth moving.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

A friend of mine has a super-hot TB mare who prefers a flash or figure 8 noseband to a regular or not one at all. For her, it seems to help her balance the bit in her mouth and relax her jaw. It's adjusted far more loosely than you will see it in competitive dressage (in fact at her last dressage test, it was mentioned that if she wasn't going to use it properly, she'd do better to take it off-- so yeah, tight is apparently 'proper'. 



My friend likens it to women who are so used to wearing a bra that they feel uncomfortable without one. For her mare, a loose flash/dropped/8 noseband seems to be what she finds most comfortable, and gives her one less thing to fret her pretty head about.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Caledonian said:


> I think every horse responds differently to nosebands and bits and I’ll never say never when it comes to what’s required to communicate with them;



Exactly, a noseband used correctly is useful, but there are those who abuse it. Western riders don't use a nose band...apart from ropers and gamers who who have a tie down, which is a noseband and martingale combined. Each discipline has its own needs or wants, some bad, some good, some good things can be used badly, and that is universal across all of the equine world, competitive or not.




SilverMaple said:


> My friend likens it to women who are so used to wearing a bra that they feel uncomfortable without one. For her mare, a loose flash/dropped/8 noseband seems to be what she finds most comfortable, and gives her one less thing to fret her pretty head about.



LOL, good one.

I guess one persons "tying it shut" is an others "storm vest security blanket" shame we can't actually ask the horse what they think.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I know that I've never used a drop until we started doing dressage. Patti was not happy with the bit in the beginning and developed the habit of gaping and flipping her tongue. .


So are you saying your horse was fine with a bit until you started doing dressage?

For people's info, i've only done 'dressage' a bit for myself, for mine & my horse's education, not competition. I've had a few lessons, the basics of teaching a horse to work 'with contact'.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

SilverMaple said:


> My friend likens it to women who are so used to wearing a bra that they feel uncomfortable without one. For her mare, a loose flash/dropped/8 noseband seems to be what she finds most comfortable, and gives her one less thing to fret her pretty head about.





Now that's a first for me! that's a very creative explanation. Are there really women who feel uncomfortable without a bra on???


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Now that's a first for me! that's a very creative explanation. Are there really women who feel uncomfortable without a bra on???



Yup, specially if asked to doing anything energetic! I mean it's nice to be free when slumming around the house, but any sort of movement gets unpleasant.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> It seems like it is a tool to 'help' get the horse "on the bit". Those of us who cannot imagine asking a horse to go "on the bit" are bewildered why anyone uses them.


Excepting that I teach horses to (firstly) go on a loose rein AND in 'contact'. I've taught them to go 'on the bit' both with a bit and in a halter or (true)hackamore. I dont do long periods of 'contact' work though, generally something like 10 min max, so maybe that's the difference...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> Now that's a first for me! that's a very creative explanation. Are there really women who feel uncomfortable without a bra on???


I find that hard to believe. But then I'm not very big, rarely wear one myself... Unless I'm planning on doing some trotting - then it's uncomfortable not to...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Seeing as this was quoted




> It seems like it is a tool to 'help' get the horse "on the bit". Those of us who cannot imagine asking a horse to go "on the bit" are bewildered why anyone uses them.



There are those of us who can't imagine why anyone would want to use anything as inherently poorly designed as a Tom Thumb bit, or for that matter any curb type of bit on a trail horse. For every type of riding there is someone who cannot imagine and are bewildered by others choices.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> Yup, specially if asked to doing anything energetic! I mean it's nice to be free when slumming around the house, but any sort of movement gets unpleasant.





I knew someone would say that. Of course, in my remark I meant it to be understood that it excluded active movement. 



I was mostly just joking. pretty much talking about , well, just being around the house.


No more than you would I consider riding 'ala naturale".


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> Excepting that I teach horses to (firstly) go on a loose rein AND in 'contact'. ...I dont do long periods of 'contact' work though, generally something like 10 min max, so maybe that's the difference...


I think the degree of contact is important. VS Littauer postulated three levels of control. Elementary is what I do, although I think riding slack reins well is far from elementary! Intermediate was "soft contact", used for communication. I sometimes use it, when I have something I think my horse needs to hear. Bandit had been taught ANY contact meant slam on the brakes, so we had to work on it. From my perspective, "soft contact" is what I resort to when I'm not good enough to get the job done without it. My views are more traditional western - the better the horse and rider, the less contact needed. But I'll let Littauer describe the difference in his own words:

"_Riding on contact is also called riding on the bit, or being, or moving on the bit, and unquestionably it is. I prefer, however, to differentiate between the two degrees of the same thing, "on contact" being the milder form. Now what precisely is the difference?

Unfortunately it is one of those things which are so easy to point out in actuality and so difficult to describe in words. Here is my best attempt:

Suppose that after you have established contact between your hands and the mouth of a schooled horse you were to continue to urge the horse forward and you were to do it with increased strength. What will happen then? Evidently the horse will try to increase the speed of the gait. But if, at the same time, you restrain him with your hands just enough to maintain the original speed yet continue to urge, then the horse will accept the bit more firmly, slightly leaning on it. Concurrently, the energy which your legs have created and which your hands have prevented from being transformed into speed will form a reserve of energy enclosed between legs and hands. It will keep the horse in an animated state and he will begin to move more vigorously although maintaining the ordinary trot.

The cooperation between your legs and hands will enable you to obtain the maximum unity between the actions of the hindquarters and of the forehand. The horse's gait may become what is called "brilliant". A movement of better quality, academically speaking, is characteristic of riding fully on the bit._"

What he's describing is something I have no interest in. After all, my goal is to decrease my contact, not increase it. I'm far more interested in efficiency than brilliance. But if someone IS interested in that "brilliance", then they may need to get their horse "over the hump" - to push past that intermediate stage, such as when trail riding was scary to Bandit, in order to get to a higher level, where Bandit can enjoy trail riding and presumably a horse can enjoy brilliant movement.

*In most learning, there is a stage where it is mostly hard work and not much fun, but one has to push over that hump to get to the fun beyond.* A horse cannot understand that the hump is temporary and that the unhappy hard work he's doing NOW can give him a reward months or years later. A dropped noseband may be a good training tool for getting past that hump, if certain types of riding are your goal.

I don't think there is 1 chance in 10,000 that I'll ever ride using a dropped noseband. I'm trying to take what I do understand (horses sometimes have to work at things in order to be more happy much later on) and use it to understand something I'll never do - instead of reflexively criticize. But it will remain a foreign concept to me.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I knew someone would say that. Of course, in my remark I meant it to be understood that it excluded active movement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is an interesting thought though...I mean especially in this hot weather I have been glad to get rid of the bra at home, but whatever the weather I'm wearing it to ride. It makes me wonder how we know if a horse finds a drop, properly fitted, is actually comforting to a horse of not....


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## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

To answer the part of the question about what would the point of a loose flash/drop noseband;

this is what my trainer uses them for, aside from dressage, i can't see anywhere a flash should really be used.. but she basically uses hers loosely to encourage the horses to close their mouths, not to tie them shut. Obviously in dressage with contact, opening the mouth is a form of evasion, and she has found with some horses, simply having it there encourages them to have a closed mouth, therefore not evade the work. I only state this as I've seen it first hand with one horse, and the difference really is paramount. 
Not to say it would work with all/many.

I'm personally unsure how I feel about flashes/drops. I don't use one, certainly wouldn't unless it was purely for the above reasoning, but again, if my horse didn't fall into that category I would opt not to bother.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> So are you saying your horse was fine with a bit until you started doing dressage?


No, not saying that at all. Patti is the first horse I have not started myself and sent her to a cowboy to get her started and riding out on trails. He did a phenomenal job of getting her going and confident enough to ride out on her own. He did not do a great job starting her on the bit. She didn't like it, so he quit using a bit and went to a mechanical hackamore. She didn't like that either. In fact, that's when she seriously wanted to start moon gazing. I brought her home, took her out on trail and discovered she had no "face" at all. Touch her face and she threw her nose up and flipped her tongue over the bit. So, sent her to another trainer with explicit instructions on what I wanted. Didn't get it there either, they said, "Well, she doesn't like her face touched so we gave her more cues from leg & seat.". So fast forward 5 or 6 years, maybe a little more, and we started doing Western Dressage. First time she's been taught properly how to accept a bit and contact. She now likes a little contact, it gives her security. She hates free walk because of the dropping of contact, so we have to finesse things a little bit. Or when she gets nervous and emotional, she reverts to her nose/tongue flipping, gaping and busy, busy, busy mouth. To the point I had her teeth done twice, TMJ xrayed and checked out, and to see if the bit we were using was hitting her palate too hard. Nope. She just didn't like it. So now, about 1 year after starting Western Dressage, she is good most of the time. Just once in a while she reverts and we go back to a drop noseband for, usually less than an hour, and she gets focused and figures out whatever she was upset about really isn't a thing and she quiets down. It's a little tighter than 2 of my fingers, more like 1 1/2, but it does the trick. Once she's quiet, off it comes and we just ride in a Western bridle and snaffle bit. No curb, no bit hobble (most of the time) and she's great.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Now that's a first for me! that's a very creative explanation. Are there really women who feel uncomfortable without a bra on???


Yes ma'am What about when breastfeeding? Extremely painful without a bra...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Tiny, I often ride in a dress on a hot summers day, & more often bareback, but pants is one thing i dont ever want to ride without! (Shudders)

And forgot to say earlier, thanks for all the (other) thought provoking comments people. I'm not trying to say tying a horse's mouth shut is necessarily/always a bad thing btw either. It's just not where I want to be. I find the range of different views on this forum really educational.

Bsms you have basically explained pretty well how I feel about it too. Thanks for the last explanation bob - I suppose the degree of 'contact' I use is no pressure compared to what dressage people call it - at no time do I want my horse leaning on the bit.



seabiscuit91 said:


> Obviously in dressage with contact, opening the mouth is a form of evasion,


I don't get how that's thought of as 'evasion' - unless of course, you let the horse quit doing whatever when they do so. Its of course an *attempted* evasion, a protest to the lack of negative reinforcement(release of pressure), but they're evading nothing effectively, if you keep asking for it. They're just telling you that it's uncomfortable/frustrating for them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AnitaAnne said:


> Yes ma'am What about when breastfeeding? Extremely painful without a bra...


Really?? I would have found it extremely difficult breastfeeding my babies with a bra on! :rofl::rofl:

...and I have no idea why there's an angry face at the top of this reply!


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## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

loosie said:


> I don't get how that's thought of as 'evasion' - unless of course, you let the horse quit doing whatever when they do so. Its of course an *attempted* evasion, a protest to the lack of negative reinforcement(release of pressure), but they're evading nothing effectively, if you keep asking for it. They're just telling you that it's uncomfortable/frustrating for them.


Evasion may be the incorrect wording here, though that was how it was explained to me. 
I guess it is more of a protest, or an attempt to evade the bit/pressure of whatever the hands are asking.. maybe?
not saying any of that is right or fair, and more often would think if a horse is gaping there's a rider error/tack problem. but maybe in sense opening the mouth is avoidance, and encouraging them to not avoid it, and be soft/supple can help in some cases.
I'm not experienced enough to really defend this logic or lack of. Trying to get across what I've been told without butchering it too much.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> Really?? I would have found it extremely difficult breastfeeding my babies with a bra on! :rofl::rofl:
> 
> ...and I have no idea why there's an angry face at the top of this reply!


This is so very off topic...but...yes with a bra on! They have flaps you open (or did when I was doing it) and I had to sleep in my bra or my girls would be painfully swollen and moving all around. Gravity has a strong pull :frown_color:


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

I don't approve of flashes,. To me they seem like fig 8s that don't work well. However I can understand the use of a drop, a micklem, or a figure 8 I've had experience with all but the micklem- sorta, I only have a knockoff. 

Benefits of the drop- fastens below the bit, under the chin. Correctly adjusted it supports the bottoms jawbone. We have to remember though that moving our reins up or down is going to punish the lips or the bars respectively. The drop makes it so the horse can't avoid the latter, this is not so good when you have a rider with bad hands, the horse will lock up in the neck. With good hands, properly adjusted, it steadies the fussy or laterally twisting face. I think Charlotte Dujardin has valegro in a drop for his snaffle bridle. 

Fig 8- could definitely be used to tie the mouth shut, but again, the best practice with it is to support the face around the jaw without limiting lateral movement. I think it gives the horse more freedom and support than a traditional crank. The "top" strap is just below the cheek at a thick section of the face. The bottom strap is again just beyond the bit, but rather than wrapping like the drop- forces move up too the "nose pom pom" so all it does is support the lower jaw using the strength of the jaw at the cheek. Has a fair amount of give if left loose. I had a mare that hated cavessons, of any kind, but happily went around in a fig 8. (Pic) 

Micklem-. I got a knockoff because it was pretty (pic) my pony has no contact issues. Honestly he doesn't. I rode him bareback in a halter "on the bit" this winter, I ride him in a snaffle with no noseband on the bit as well. I ride him on the bit in a curb while after cows in Western tack and headstall, again no problem. So basically, I threw this bridle on him because it's pretty. Genuinely it helps. And no it's not tight. I think we have to remember in dressage or any riding that the bit ends in the jaw that is relatively free hanging from the skull. When the half halt or aid goes over it meets on the tongue in that free hanging jaw that the horse is holding up to meet the bit. This is good. We like that. We want our horses happily waiting to meet the bit. This is why we start with minimal stuff on the face. They have to learn that. And we have to be able to see or feel that they get it. At some point we may give the horse more support for training purposes- when the work is intense and I ask and ask my pony to keep pushing to the bit, he may want his "sports bra" or to correct some training issue like what @Dreamcatcher Arabians mentioned. If it's tying the mouth shut it's not being used correctly. The horse HAS to have mobility to respond well and have a conversation. 
@loosie, if I could I would invite you to try my boy and see if he felt restrained. You could watch him crop grass in his bridle and happily salivate and chomp as he processes the aids. You could feel him on the end of the reins mulling over the aids and adjusting his jaw and poll to meet the contact. 

There are fads, there is bad training, there is uneducated hands, and all in abundance, however I think you will find that when riders and trainers put the horse first the equipment is to the benefit of the horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

AnitaAnne said:


> This is so very off topic...but...yes with a bra on! They have flaps you open (or did when I was doing it) and I had to sleep in my bra or my girls would be painfully swollen and moving all around. Gravity has a strong pull :frown_color:



let's kill the bra / verses / no bra discussion. it was fun while it lasted, but is going to derail a good discussion on bits, and their use and . . all that!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Dropped nosebands and support. I don't see it. Here's why:

In western riding, it is common to adjust the headstall so the bit creates no wrinkles. So it is loose below the corner of the mouth. The rider than rides with slack in the reins, so no rein support for the bit. But like most western horses I've seen, my horses open their mouths on a ride only to stuff grass inside!

In English riding, it is common to adjust the bit for 1-2 wrinkles. Wrinkles come when the corner of the lip is applying pressure to the bit - that is what causes the wrinkle - so the bit is being supported on top, somewhat, by the horse's lips. Meanwhile, the reins are supposed to go straight, which only happens if there is pressure on them. You cannot have a straight rein without some backward pressure. That supports the bit on the bottom. So the bit is ALREADY "supported" - squeezed, even - between the rein and the lip.

Yet it is English riders who want more support for their already supported bit? And western riders who reject "support" for a bit which is loose in the horse's mouth? If a dropped noseband was an advantage for the support it gives - the "bra theory" of dropped nosebands - wouldn't it be western riders who would want it, and English riders who wouldn't need it?

Add in the number of riders in competition who use TIGHT dropped nosebands, and it really looks like a tool that could be useful for a very good rider on a specific horse, but merely a means of ignoring a horse's protests when used by average riders on average horses - UNLESS it is adjusted loose enough to have very little purpose at all. Other than looks, and I can understand someone putting one on loosely just because they like the look! Lots of western riders do that with breastplates. Heck, I've thought of getting a breastplate because I like the looks, except they don't make one narrow enough for my horse!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

loosie and seabiscuit...
How about remove "evasion" and try instead the idea of....*distraction.
*Remove distractions...
For many a horse having a reminder to stay on task, not wander is what "training tools" do...
They need not be cruelly used, a gentle reminder to remain on task or take some of the work of remaining on task away when the horse can actually use the noseband properly adjusted to relax the jaw against and "feel".
Yes, they can feel cues with their mouth more accurately when the mouth is quietly closed, not chewing, not fussing and with a bit that is correctly positioned and one that does not inflict pain with contact applied.
There are always extremes from one end of very mild and acceptable to downright horrible cruel in equipment used by...well, we know what those doing our trusted steeds wrong are.:|

OK...back to my corner.. :hide:
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

horselovinguy said:


> loosie and seabiscuit...
> How about remove "evasion" and try instead the idea of....*distraction.
> *Remove distractions...
> For many a horse having a reminder to stay on task, not wander is what "training tools" do...
> ...


I love this description. I've always been a "less is more" type of person, but I can respect when someone sees a need for a certain tool.

A girl I show with is rapidly shooting up the levels in Dressage with her gelding. He started off as Western Pleasure, and was frustrating himself as he had no idea what she was asking him to do with his head and neck. Being an Arabian, he could snake that sucker anywhere. She used draws (something I don't necessarily care for) to help him find the sweet spot. Once the light bulb clicked he was like "OH!!" and happily found it from then on. He LOVES his new job and work, but he was getting SO frustrated not understanding what she was trying to ask of him.

Each of us have very different backgrounds and very different disciplines. What is a helpful took for some is something worthless to another. I myself will only use any form of curb when I work into a double. Others prefer the curb or a tom thumb for every day riding.

But I liked your description of using it to help minimize distractions. It's why some Saddlebred people will put blinkers on their horses to help them focus on the task at hand. Not something us Dressage people use, but it's a tool they find helpful.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Tihannah said:


> Could the micklem bridle be considered a drop noseband type fit?


It is considered a dropped noseband, so is the PS of Sweden bridles actually-at least to Equine Canada. It's the way some of those bridles are designed.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm not sure how a Micklem noseband can be considered to me a drop noseband because one of the aims of the bridle was to produce something that wasn't going to act in the same way or the same place as a drop. 
The nose piece on a correctly fitted Micklem bridle is in a much higher position than a drop noseband which has the lowest position of all of the nosebands that fasten below the bit so has the potential to cause the most damaging pressure on the nasal bone and cause breathing difficulties if fastened too tightly.

The Grakle/Figure 8 and the drop will reduce the horses ability to cross their jaw, the Flash and the Micklem not so much. The Figure 8 was designed specifically for that purpose - the other name for it as used more in the UK is Grakle as it was named after the racehorse of the same name that won the Grand National in 1931. The horse had a habit of crossing its jaw and becoming hard to control.

The noseband below the bit doesn't so much support the bit because that job is done by the part that goes over the poll but it does help to stabilise the bit


I'm in two camps re. their use. 
They can be useful in a green horse if used in the 'prevention is better than cure' sense but if you're still using one several years down the line then it seems to be that its not working

They can be handy for horses that can't break habits like jaw crossing and putting their tongue over the bit but trying to figure out why a horse is still constantly opening its mouth after a few years under saddle should be the 'go too' action
We found that K stopped trying to open her mouth when we removed the restricting noseband, it was a reaction to having her mouth clamped shut. Now if she does open her mouth at all we know its a reaction to having more pressure than she can cope with so instead of ignoring it the hand gets lightened/softened 

I wonder if we're seeing such an increase in the use of these nosebands because riders are pushing horses into riding in contact and collection too soon and on too hard a hand?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I think a lot has to do with too many horses ridden 'front to back' rather than 'back to front'.


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## unclearthur (Feb 25, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> Well I cannot say I have noticed a horse wearing a drop noseband salivates more than one without.


FH, your reply, and mine to that, was to a comment on 'horrendously tight' nosebands rather than specifically drops.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> Now that's a first for me! that's a very creative explanation. Are there really women who feel uncomfortable without a bra on???



Yep. It's fine for lounging around, but if I'm up and doing something, I put one on. 



I friend of mine works in a job at historical re-enactments. She is very uncomfortable without the Victorian-era corset she wears daily when dressed for her job. She says it is really quite comfortable once you get used to it if it's fitted properly, as it supports the back, encourages good posture, and she prefers to wear one when active as opposed to going without. Interestingly-enough, her back problems that plagued her throughout life are now a thing of the past since she's been wearing one for her job, too. It's all in what we get used to and what is comfortable for us.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I currently ride with a rope halter and snap-on Zilco headstall. 

My horse, when stressed, chomps on the bit. I do nothing to discourage this, as it helps him relax. 

I tried riding him in an S-hack and he was fine at home, but out on the trails it made him testy and he even started flinging his head. So I give him the bit and he has it to play with when he wants too. 90% of our ride he has his mouth closed and is not messing with the bit. 


This type of behavior would get us penalized in most shows. 


Personally, if he likes to play with it I am ok with that. I think of it like a pacifier for him :wink:


Point being, I am not sure discouraging horses from opening their mouths is a good thing...I notice many horses, especially in the upper levels of Dressage, moving their lips and mouth around. I think they are counting or concentrating strongly. I notice it a lot in musicians too, they tend to make all kinds of odd faces


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> I'm not sure how a Micklem noseband can be considered to me a drop noseband because one of the aims of the bridle was to produce something that wasn't going to act in the same way or the same place as a drop.


I thought of all nosebands that were tied around the horse's mouth below the bit as 'drop' ones. For the purpose of this discussion, I think they can be classed as such. I can't see what's so different about them myself.

As for people saying that they aren't meant to be done up tight & that is incorrect for someone to do so, I looked up the 'crank' not having heard of that type, to find that, if I hadn't suspected from the name, this one at least is _designed_ especially to be able to do up tightly with LEVERAGE!:frown_color:


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

loosie said:


> As for people saying that they aren't meant to be done up tight & that is incorrect for someone to do so, I looked up the 'crank' not having heard of that type, to find that, if I hadn't suspected from the name, this one at least is _designed_ especially to be able to do up tightly with LEVERAGE!:frown_color:


The design allows for that, but so does a belt that tightens your pants. Instead of a metal buckle, you have a layer of padding that rests against the horses chin. The degree of tightness is left up to the rider, just as the harshness in hands with a bit.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Drops are drops, Flashes are flashes, Micklems are Micklems. No point is muddying the terms and making it confusing. They are distinct in their form and function.

In a discussion about drops, I don't see the relevance on how a crank is fastened when they are two separate pieces of tack not used together.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Tihannah said:


> The degree of tightness is left up to the rider, just as the harshness in hands with a bit.


Yeah, agreed. But my point was that it's designed specifically FOR this. Just like 'harsh' bits are designed to cause more pain/discomfort.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

loosie said:


> Yeah, agreed. But my point was that it's designed specifically FOR this. Just like 'harsh' bits are designed to cause more pain/discomfort.



That determination and amount of "harsh" though is made by a human.
One with understanding, knowledge and compassion to the animal or not...
Ultimately, harsh _is_ human-made and_ is_ human delivered or not. :|
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

Honestly I think it is a bit silly to have a one size fits all scenario and idea of what works for EVERY horse. We have things like nosebands, drops etc to fit different horses, riders and disciplines. I don't think my horse minds wearing a noseband and watch him go he doesn't usually open his mouth when I ride him which he could do given the looseness of his equipment, however I have it for situations where he may try to take the bit and bolt (he was a winning racehorse) and he is VERY clever about techniques to control a situation when he wants to, so I want to give myself a little advantage because I full well know it is IMPOSSIBLE to out muscle a horse, so I wont even try it. Mine is 172cm, 585kg or 17h 1290lbs (I'm 5'7-170cm and a former US Marine). If he wants to take the bit and go, I either have to one rein stop which I try to avoid as it is VERY hard on his stifles which I have had to do some expensive treatments on or run him into a wall or fence. Most of the time I can hack him safely on a loose rein, other days I need to have a contact or I'm going to have a ready to go horse and I need to keep him from launching. A horse is not the same throughout a ride and the amount of pressure used is not the same throughout a ride. I have to put my elbows into my core and hold my core a LOT on this horse because I HAVE to be in control of my hip. I tried the natural horsemanship way to make him more self going but it doesnt really work very well with this guy, the rider has to be in control of their hip and hold him to that and he has to listen to me which is why when I engage my core and close my hip to prevent excess movement I will hold my elbows into my core and close my fingers when I relax my core I soften my hips, elbows and fingers (I hold my reins between my thumb and index in neutral). I put my elbows into my rib cage to say where the contact barrier is, I keep it consistent so the horse knows where it is and I don't pull on them and they don't pull on me, so it is like holding hands. I don't think a lot of hackers have ridden a horse like this. Heck I've ridden hundreds of horses and never ridden one like this one. He's one where I'd be perfectly happy putting "know it all"s on to try and show me how I'm doing it wrong and get to laugh hysterically when they can't even get him on the bit or get bolted off with or he stands refusing to be ridden which I've seen him do. The only person I've seen besides myself get him to comply and happily work is my US trainer who is a GP rider. Heck I had a friend who is a very nice, empathetic rider who goes on young horses etc rode him decently but really struggled because he takes so much to ride. A rider has to be VERY strong and at the same time very light with really good timing because the moments when you're strong you have to REALLY engage your core and hold it or you'll be unable to sit him down, organize him or keep him with you then be quick to be neutral or he inverts and braces.

I also agree I prefer a crank to a regular noseband because it comes with a soft pad on the bottom and doesn't rub their chin as much. I have to use a fleece with Wonder so his normal strap doesn't rub. The noseband is only as tight as applied. I also like riding in spurs more than without. Some people think spurs are the devil but this horse is SO SO much happier in spurs than without because I can keep a quieter more still leg to communicate with him.

This picture shows me engaging my core and putting my elbows into my ribs to help "sit him back." The loading power in this horse is incredible, he has literally torn my core muscles. The 2nd is in the medium canter and try to regulate and keep him with me, rather than a simple charge forward but to keep him pushing behind and up into a medium. Which does require contact to accomplish. I think it's WAY too easy to say a piece of equipment is unnecessary just because it does not pertain to your purposes but what works for YOU isnt what is right for everyone, every situation or every horse or every discipline. A piece of equipment is only as harsh as how someone uses it. Like again my horse would NOT be something you could just happily hack on, once in a while sure he's pretty safe to hack after a work out but if you start there I can GUARANTEE the rider will have a tense, anxious on the muscle horse and at some point he will take the bit and bolt. I don't know if I'll ever completely stop that tendency in him. He had a hoof abscess and even sedated he still HAD to be lunged daily or he was just this tense ball of intensity that if you put a chain on him and werent paying attention would be down the road dragging you like a kite. And I've done a lot of NH with this horse. One size fits all programs, systems and ideology imo are doomed to fail when universally applied across the board.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

loosie said:


> I thought of all nosebands that were tied around the horse's mouth below the bit as 'drop' ones. For the purpose of this discussion, I think they can be classed as such. I can't see what's so different about them myself.
> QUOTE]
> I think with any discussion here we should try to stick with correct terms rather than lump everything into one box for any purpose as it just confuses things.
> If I go in to a tack store and ask for a drop noseband then I'll expect to be given a drop noseband and not a grakle, a flash or a Micklem bridle.
> ...


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Watching the grooms cranking up those 'crank' nosebands at an FEI competition, it's fair to say that most of those are designed to be leveraged as tight as possible, holding the horse's mouth shut without a dropped noseband. 

You do want some salivation. But a horse that can't move his jaw enough to swallow is another thing entirely.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> . One size fits all programs, systems and ideology imo are doomed to fail when universally applied across the board.


Great post in many ways, but love this...horses, and people are all individuals, and there are few absolutes across the board. Riding is about communication and finding out what works best for both parties, to make that communication as quiet and clear as possible.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

One of our horses is ridden in a Micklem bridle because she gets her tongue over the bit for something to do and it drives you mad.
We tried a flash, a grakle and a drop but none of them worked in as much as she was really unhappy in them even though she couldn't get her tongue over the bit. 
She's OK in the Micklem but I think that switching her from a 'lozenge' type double jointed snaffle into a thin single jointed loose ring is what made the most difference, she probably doesn't need the Micklem any more. The lozenge just gave her tongue too much to fiddle with


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> If I go in to a tack store and ask for a drop noseband then I'll expect to be given a drop noseband and not a grakle, a flash or a Micklem bridle.


Yes I beg your pardon. I meant to say for this discussion i was meaning anything under the bit. I thought those were just different types of 'drops'


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> Honestly I think it is a bit silly to have a one size fits all scenario and idea of what works for EVERY horse. We have things like nosebands, drops etc to fit different horses, riders and disciplines...


I haven't noticed anyone trying to impose one vision for riding on all disciplines. But suppose I told you I used a thin twisted wire curb bit on 7 or 8 horses because my horses were "hot". How many here would say, "_Makes sense! Who am I to judge?_" vs "_You use WHAT?_"

What a top level competitor in a given sport uses isn't for me to judge. I'm not top level in anything. But when average riders of average horses are preemptively tying their horse's' mouths shut, rather than it being something to do rarely for specific horses, then I think one needs to re-evaluate both how one defines a quiet mouth and how one gets it. The fact that millions of western horses can have quiet mouths without first wrapping leather around them strongly suggests a lot of riding can be done without ever using one.

What any individual does to meet a specific need with their horse isn't my business. Not unless I've seen them first hand, at a minimum!

But it seems reasonable to wonder why so many harsh, brutal bits are sold to western riders of no particular skill, and why very average English riders are often pulling a bit up into the corners of the mouth and holding it there with an under-strap.

"_In place of first putting the blame on the horse, which is only natural, the rider ought perhaps begin by trying to find out if he himself is not the culprit._"
- Breaking and Riding, James Fillis 1890​


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@DanteDressageNerd off topic slightly but I have to mention the picture in your avatar (and second one in most recent post) is fabulous!! Nice enough to hang on a wall...he has really fabulous movement. Amazing. 

@loosie um no, all nosebands that go under the lip are not drop nosebands...someone posted a picture a few pages back that showed each different noseband. 

Personally I have never liked the dropped nosebands because they can damage the nasal bones if done up too low and too tight. IMO the flash came about as an alternative to the drop that is off the nasal bone. 

@bsms 
"...and why very average English riders are often pulling a bit up into the corners of the mouth and holding it there with an under-strap"

Many lower level instructors have the students tighten the nosebands for more control. Plus they believe it is correct placement. These same instructors usually are overly concerned with heels, elbows, hand position, i.e. appearance. What they should be focusing on is performance.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The 'flash' is also a current fad in dressage. Horses seem to wear them as a matter of course, whether they need it or not.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

SilverMaple said:


> The 'flash' is also a current fad in dressage. Horses seem to wear them as a matter of course, whether they need it or not.


I know a lady who rides dressage. Her kids ride her old dressage horse hunters and he's perfect. Rides in a plain cavasson with no mouth issues. Occasionally she gets on him and usa a flash. It's just part of the outfit. 

It's like martingale.


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