# "See-sawing"



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I was in an arena and observed/overheard a lesson given by a professional trainer that does colt starting, lessons and showing(Not 100% sure in what all, but western pleasure for sure)

Now I'm not saying what is right or wrong. I'm not now, nor will I ever be a western pleasure person, but I can appreciate good horsemanship in any discipline.

It appeared that the lesson was in western pleasure style riding, mostly in a circle around the trainer. The lope had the hip pushed into the circle very significantly when on the correct lead. 

The trainer multiple times told the rider to 'soften' the horses face/mouth by jerking alternate reins until the horse tucks it's head.

To me these are bad. But I certainly don't know everything, perhaps this is acceptable behaviour? Do many people lope with a hip tilted into the circle? Is there a purpose?

Is see-sawing an accepted training technique?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

> "Vibrations" to relax the jaw are executed as follows: the snaffle bit is worked back and forth through the mouth by a soft, sawing action on the reins. This sawing, or vibration, is produced by closing the fingers of the right hand, for example, while the fingers of the left hand simultaneously relax to let the bit slip an inch or so through the horse's mouth, toward the right.
> 
> Then smoothly, slowly, without delay, the fingers of the right hand partly relax, while those of the left close and slide the bit back toward the left. The wrists may assist the action of the fingers, by bending inward and upward, so that the palm of the hand turns toward the rider's chest.
> 
> ...


That is the proper use of see-sawing, or using vibrations. Jerking the reins back and forth to get a horse to tuck its head is not good. IMHO.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I think your question is in the use of the verbiage and watching a student rider. See-Sawing is a phrase that is used quite a bit to explain a cue that can be done in any discipline, not just western pleasure. It sounds like that was a young horse, as in 5 years or younger because in order to see-saw as they trainer put it, the horse would be ridden in 2 reins and a snaffle. 

It's really supposed to be just a gentle cue, not a tug or a pull. Just kind of a play in the fingers, a little tightening, I don't think you really even have to move your wrist to do it properly. But with a younger horse it may be more animated and with a student rider, also may be more animated as they are trying to figure out what needs to be done.

When done properly it's not going to "hurt" the horse. Although I'm sure it's an annoyance. If the rider rewards by releasing when the horse drops his head, or tucks his nose, then the horse will eventually learn where to carry his head.

I never like the phrase see-saw.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

The horse appeared fully mature, and ridden with shanks.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

then she should have just been able to jiggle the reins a little to get what she was asking for....


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

It's a closing and opening of fingers on the reins alternating with calf pressure to the according rein. If a person on the ground can clearly detect it, it's being done incorrectly, as it will not encourage any kind of lightness.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

No, imo it's not acceptable. You can alternate flexions, sponge a rein when appropriate, but the quick back and forth, even subtle, isn't going to get them really soft. They'll be backed off instead.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I feel like the first half of my post has to be caveats. I ride "Western" events that are more of a working type. I don't see the point because collection doesn't happen in the face and neck, it happens in the horse's back. 

When I've seen this it was hard to tell what the end goal was to be honest, and I am of the opinion this is more about maintaining a look than being "in frame", "collected" etc. 

I very rarely see horses doing something highly athletic carrying such an artificial frame. I'd go as far as to say that the more athletic the event is the less importance is placed on it. 

That said, I can't claim to be a trainer and admit I am still trying to figure out why different disciplines have different ideas and standards for what the ideal is and how you get it.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The movement of the bit should come purely from the movement of the ring finger against the rein alternately. (Assuming the reins are running between the little and ring fingers) anything more and it becomes a seesaw action. 

One of the most difficult horses I had to retrain was one that had been see sawed to the point that riding him on a totally loose rein at a trot he would swing his head left and right.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

BlueSpark said:


> I was in an arena and observed/overheard a lesson given by a professional trainer that does colt starting, lessons and showing(Not 100% sure in what all, but western pleasure for sure)
> 
> Now I'm not saying what is right or wrong. I'm not now, nor will I ever be a western pleasure person, but I can appreciate good horsemanship in any discipline.
> 
> ...


Horses often canter or lope with their hip to the inside. They do this so the inside rear leg does not need to work as hard as it would if the horse’s body was straight. Someone not realizing this might not pay any attention to it.

See-sawing is a common technique used to get a horse to lower its head to relieve the annoyance. While it usually achieves this basic purpose, it also usually creates tension in the horse. Of course, how it is done can make a significant difference.

If done softly – almost imperceptibly – the technique may achieve the purpose without causing undue tension. However, many seem to have been under the opinion: if a little is good, a lot is better. The result is that heavy handed see-sawing has become quite common.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

My last trainer was a ‘twinkler’ each lesson was about the head, and twinkling or other descriptions for using the reins one after the other to tuck the head. I won’t use see sawing as a description for that, as that is something different as I understand it....it is a far bigger and more ‘violent’ movement. I have always seen it as using the whole arm, big movements to either stop a runaway, or other emergency....never as a training tool.

My current trainer has spent years training that ‘handy’ tendency out of me, only at the end of last year did I start to feel the true beauty of a horse in self carriage because of my leg, while the hand remains quiet and giving.....it is a new world when you get the whole “just add leg” statement.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

This is such a pet peeve of mine, but many people don’t see it as a negative. There are some trainers around that it is very common for now, and I try to keep my judgement to a minimum anymore realizing that just because I see things differently doesn’t mean I am automatically correct. That being said I still cringe when I see it. It is so normal in my area that it is done in a warm up pen with no thoughts as to hiding it.

My main horse had a small number of rides on him when I purchased him. Small being at most 15. However, he was started directly into a true see-saw training style. By that I mean with a strong power alternating hands to pop the horse in the mouth fast and hard. This would make him sore and be a punishment for pushing on the snaffle. 

Now, being arrogant about my own talent with headsets I figured this would be of zero consequence for my training. After all, the horse had only a few rides and I thought I could easily fix any horse’s head. Well, do you know how they say horses are humbling? This horse will never be light. Sure, if he is attentive and we are in a training type environment he will seem extremely light to an observer, but when things go wrong or he is distracted or confused he can and will pull against my hands. He is dull mouthed and will always be, and simply from a small amount of that style of riding.

My grandfather and others of that older generation immediately dismiss the trainers they see using that as a tool. My father explained to me that it is because they know it is something impossible to come back from. Another friend of mine who is a trainer who studied under persons with that style explained that it is a tool. She said that if rushed by a client, sadly it is useful, but that she’d never do it with her own horses because it is something that becomes necessary throughout their lives. She explained that colts started that way become 8-year-old horses in the open that are still being see-sawed in the warm up pen.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am somewhat surprised that your horse, @Knave, isn't displaying the more common bad habit that results from a training that was based on see-sawing for a headset; avoiding contact with a bit and curling behind it in evasion.

that has got to be THE hardest bad habit to retrain, IMO, much harder than softening a hard-mouthed horse.

I think the only sort of wiggling, or 'milking', or twinkling, or jiggling, or what ever you want to call it where by the rider makes the reins change up the contact, back and forth again, that is in any way useful is on very rare occasions when you want to break the horse out of a fixed way of thinking . 

Like, the horse is blocked mentally, and in his body, and will not listen to the gentle action of the inside rein that is asking for a softening, or the action of both reins, or a half halt on the outside rein, . . . etc.
a back and forth action is a bit of a 'shock' to them, in the sense that it brings their mind back to the bit and your aids, wherein you then can 'talk' with them again. But, I think it can become a crutch, and interfere with them being willing to listen to small cues anymore if used as THE only way to ask the hrose to think back to his rider.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@tinyliny No, he’s never been evasive of it. Truly I’ve not seen continual evasion of the bit in the horses I’ve seen it used on, but momentary which is what makes the continuous requirement in my mind. Truly though that has only been looking over the fence, as he is the only horse I’ve ridden that has been exposed to it.

You sound like I did when I purchased him though, thinking it would be easy to lighten him up.  That has not proven the case at all. Lol


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Actual 'see sawing' that involves pulling the bit from side to side is one of those 'old fashioned' training things that's mostly frowned upon now and for good reason. I would only use it as a last resort if a horse was getting away from me at the gallop and all else had failed. 
Sponging, twinkling etc is a very different action that just involves opening and closing your fingers on the rein/reins or a little vibration on the reins is a different thing. It lasts just seconds - the time it takes you to say 'twinkle'. 
Done correctly it shouldn't be visible to an onlooker.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

We use that technique in driving to slow a horse down from a strong trot to a working trot, but it's like a half-halt in dressage, on an appropriately trained horse. Just a gentle squeezing of the rein on each side, very little hand movement. I'd hesitate to use that term with a raw beginner because it's easy to mistake what the trainer means.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> .it is a far bigger and more ‘violent’ movement. I have always seen it as using the whole arm, big movements to either stop a runaway, or other emergency....never as a training tool..


Oh boy, at an early age I learnt to swing a pony from side to side, never letting it get in a stride when it was trying to run away with me! Then when in racing proper some of the horses were classsed as 'strong' and their whole idea was to go as fast as they could, a definite No NO! They had to be kept at a canter to those not familiar with racing terms canter is a slow gallop.

When one horse I was riding decided to hook off with me the old memories came back and I started to swing him. It worked and we stayed with the other two horses we were working with. Next time on the gallops he started again and after a couple of swings - was beyond see sawing - he just settled knowing he couldn't get away!


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I view this in two different ways. Like Foxhunter just said, I will use this technique often to interrupt the rhythm of a horse that is trying to go too fast. It is particularly helpful when trying to extend the trot and the horse wants to break over into the lope.
Done the way you witnessed, I'm always reminded of those who like to tie a horse's head down by the reins and run them around the round pen for 20 minutes "to soften his mouth". I know of no better way to take all of the feel out of a horse's mouth, but you will certainly notice the bit being pulled side to side as the horse moves out. Usually, when you see a heavy handed person doing this, they have habitually lunged the horse around tied and are using the side to side motion to remind the horse that his mouth is supposed to have all of the sensitivity of a sack of flour.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

When I first put a bit in a youngster's mouth I will allow them to chew it for a while and once use to the feel I will stand facing the same way as them and put a finger on the bit ring either side, I will then on one some, put a feel on one side until they give to it and then do the other side. Quite soon, just withna light touch they are giving willingly from one side to the other. 

All tactfully executed as to much pressure they will start to fight it.


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