# what color is my gelding?



## Chanter321 (Apr 8, 2012)

My mother and I have argued for years about Sparkey's color, what do you all think? Brown, Bay? Something else? He is registered as a bay, but you know how hard it is to tell color on a youngster.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

I am leaning towards brown. Do you have a picture of him in a winter coat? That would confirm he was brown if he has cinnamon color around his muzzle and flank while in the winter coat (brown cannot disguise itself in the winter coat)
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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

He's much the same color as my horse, which I have decided is a brown.

















She's considerably blacker now that her winter coat is coming in.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I also refer you to this light-hearted thread for reference: 
Badass Brown


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I think he's brown. Reminds me a lot of my friend's Arab gelding who was brown.
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## Chanter321 (Apr 8, 2012)

the final picture of the lot is his winter coat, the picture was taken in February, its also the lightest he ever has been, which is why I included it. he is usually almost black all year except for the dapples. That was the year my mom decided he was a brown, I stuck to what his registration said.


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## Chanter321 (Apr 8, 2012)

I was wrong! that was taken in September. i started looking at it and realized: He wasn't fluffy!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Yep, he's a brown. No doubt.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

100% a beautiful brown 

Brown is very similar to bay as the only difference is the agouti mutation which controls the on/off switches for black pigment. It is also possible for a horse to have both bay and brown agouti, the bay agouti is usually the dominant agouti mutation. Brown horses are commonly mistaken for bay, but what brown cannot do is hide in a winter coat because the winter coat forces it to show the lighter cinnamon color on the soft areas. A bay horse will remain the same color all year round and have a dark muzzle all year round. Hope that helps to understand the differences between bay and brown which is why having a winter coat picture can really clear up any confusion ;-)


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Brown~


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## Chanter321 (Apr 8, 2012)

so what about the little guy in the background? My mom thinks he might also be a brown, but he looks like a bay to me! And what makes a horse a black, we have a filly who I think is a black, but colors are so confusing I'm not sure... I can post more pictures of the little guy in a while.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Chanter321 said:


> so what about the little guy in the background? My mom thinks he might also be a brown, but he looks like a bay to me! And what makes a horse a black, we have a filly who I think is a black, but colors are so confusing I'm not sure... I can post more pictures of the little guy in a while.


The little guy in the background of the winter coat picture looks like a brown as well due to how light colored the muzzle is. 

As for a black, what makes a horse a black is a black extension gene (E) and a recessive agouti (a) whereas a bay or brown has a black (dominant) extension gene (E) and a dominant agouti (A). (Chestnuts/sorrels are recessive ee and as there isn't black present, agouti has no visual effect on chestnut/sorrel but can pass agouti to foals). 

To identify black, there are several ways. Sometimes by parentage (two black parents can only produce a black or a chestnut, or produce only a black foal if one of the parents is homozygous black). You can identify by pulling hairs and paying $40 for coat color testing, if results come back Ee aa or EE aa, you have a black horse. Having multiple pictures from different times of the year can identify a black (especially right when the winter or summer coat comes in), if the head is completely black with no lighter colors around the muzzle or eyes, you have a black. If the filly is still a foal going through coat color changes, a picture of her as a newborn can answer the question (black foals can go through weird/unusual colors between the time of birth until their first winter coat)


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Bay. He has 'black points', black mane & tail and black legs to above knees/hocks


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Bay. He has 'black points', black mane & tail and black legs to above knees/hocks


Not necessarily.

Bay and brown are closely related. Brown presents much the same as bay, except it adds cinnamon-colored areas to the soft points of the body (muzzle, flank, under elbow, point of buttocks...places sun bleaching wouldn't normally occur). I know a brown who looks cherry bay all year, but in winter gets those cinnamon soft points.

I agree with Sunny that the little one is brown, as well.
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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Bay. He has 'black points', black mane & tail and black legs to above knees/hocks


FYI- so does brown ;-)

There are three agouti mutations and depending on the agouti mutation depends on how the black pigment is controlled

Wild Bay agouti - the black is most restricted, low and disconnected black socks (may have partial black knees/hocks/cannon bones but may not be concentrated black until the pastern), black mane/tail and small black tips on the ears. 

Brown agouti - the black is restricted most noticeably to a cinnamon color in the soft areas (muzzle/flank/elbow), also black legs/mane/tail. Many browns have red or dark red bodies and black legs/mane/tail, have seasonal color changes from dark to light colors and the winter coat shows the cinnamon colored soft areas. The seal browns are mistaken as blacks as their entire body can be a deep black but they have the same cinnamon colored soft areas around the muzzle, elbow and flank that the lighter colored versions of brown have. 

Bay agouti - Black is restricted to the legs, mane, tail, ear tips, and MUZZLE. The bays will remain the same color all year round, including having a dark muzzle in the winter. 

A lot has been learned about horse color genetics in the last 30 years, many books haven't been updated and many people out there haven't continued learning how much more we now understand. I had also been raised to identify a horse like the OP's as a bay and not a brown. When I first joined the forum is when I learned so much more about color genetics, having an open mind and getting rid of old learning is a continuous cycle. At one time, it was believed that "bay" was its own color which is why an old time breeder back in 1988 was so confused as to how my mom's chestnut mare produced a bay filly sired by her black stallion. The stallion owner even drove out to my parents' home to see the filly herself because she didn't believe my mom on the phone, she then tried to explain the filly's bay color by claiming that the darker hairs in the chestnut mare's tail was what caused the filly to be a bay. We now know (none of my family knew about agouti until I joined the forum) that in fact the chestnut mare carried an agouti mutation which was passed to the foal, the sire passed E a to the filly and her dam passed e A to make her Ee Aa. Technically, she is a brown not bay, she goes through seasonal color changes, gets a cinnamon color on her soft spots in her winter coat but is easily mistaken as a bay.
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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Technically he's brown, however I would still call him a bay and so would many, many others.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

Huh. Not to hijack the thread but since it's been answered, does that mean my boy Kainne was brown? This is him in the summer









And this is him in the winter









Or am I misunderstanding about the muzzle color thing?
Horse colors are so confusing to me, lol


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

rocky pony said:


> Huh. Not to hijack the thread but since it's been answered, does that mean my boy Kainne was brown? This is him in the summer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect comparison between summer and winter coats to show how brown can hide ;-)
Although I will also add that if both a bay and brown agouti are present, your horse will most likely look bay but there might be times that brown takes over or vice versa. The trend is that bay agouti are dominant over brown but there are times that it doesn't follow the trend.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

That's really interesting. So would that make a horse technically both brown and bay at the same time?

I feel like this is almost like a Schrodinger's Cat situation. If nobody looks at the cat, is it really brown? lol


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

rocky pony said:


> That's really interesting. So would that make a horse technically both brown and bay at the same time?
> 
> I feel like this is almost like a Schrodinger's Cat situation. If nobody looks at the cat, is it really brown? lol


There was another forum member a couple years back that posted pictures of their bay horse, same color all year round every year until one winter when suddenly the horse had cinnamon colored soft areas. The horse was homozgous agouti (2 copies of agouti) and the bay agouti almost always hid the brown agouti. Why it switched for one year is a mystery, but I would think that if a horse is consistent about getting a light muzzle,elbow and flank that you would call them a brown ;-)
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## Chanter321 (Apr 8, 2012)

here is a picture of the Filly from the summer she was born. I think she is black, but we know nothing about her parents except that her sire may have been a quarter horse...


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Chanter321 said:


> here is a picture of the Filly from the summer she was born. I think she is black, but we know nothing about her parents except that her sire may have been a quarter horse...


Yes, she is a black ;-)

Not a newborn picture (as in the first few days of life outside the womb) but she is in a coat shed there that shows her true color. I could really throw you off by showing you a 2 1/2 month old black colt who looked like a bright red bay before he started his next foal coat shed, which is why you can't always tell a foal's color at certain points of their first few coat sheds


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