# Why the meat truck comment all the time?



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

While you may not be able to fathom selling a horse to a meat buyer, it happens all the time. People either don't want to or can't afford euthanization and to properly dispose of the body. Disposing of the body is quite a large problem - even if you go with the $0.10 euthanasia option, you still have to figure out what to do with the body. 
Plus, gaining a few bucks for meat price is mighty appealing to many people, especially when the alternative is spending a few hundred + for euthanization and disposal. Beyond that, a person can send a horse to a sale and pretend in their minds that the horse went to a loving home where it will live out its days happy as a clam. A person can just dump a horse at a sale and promptly make up whatever fantasy ending they had for said horse.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> While you may not be able to fathom selling a horse to a meat buyer, it happens all the time. People either don't want to or can't afford euthanization and to properly dispose of the body.
> Plus, gaining a few hundred bucks for meat price is mighty appealing to many people, especially when the alternative is spending a few hundred + for euthanization and disposal. Beyond that, a person can send a horse to a sale and pretend in their minds that the horse went to a loving home where it will live out its days happy as a clam. A person can just dump a horse at a sale and promptly make up whatever fantasy ending they had for said horse.


But what I don't understand is why people make it sound like they had no choice but to send it to a meat buyer. I get that it's an option, but I don't see how it is spun like it's the only option. 

Okay, let's say a person sends their horse to auction and pretends it went to a loving home and wasn't killed. I guess that would be the equivalent of a person who brings a dog or cat to the pound and just pretends it was adopted instead ending up out the back door in a plastic bag.

But what about people who just flat out sell to a meat buyer and act like they had no other option? I don't get that. 

I don't want to single a person out, but the person in the other thread is what I'm talking about.

They took the time and money to bring in trainers and said they just gave it all trying for this horse. Then she tried to find another home and nobody wanted it. At that point, why not just have it euthanized where you know it's just going peacefully in its sleep?

I can see how a horse DEALER would sell to a meat buyer.

I can't see how a person could say they put so much time and money into their beloved pet but then had no choice but to sell it to the meat buyer?

See what I mean? Sure euthanizing is expensive. But like I said, if you have a horse that you planned on feeding and providing vet care for, and brought in trainers for, how can you suddenly not have the funds when it comes to euthanizing?

Are there places where there are no vets around to euthanize? I've never lived anyplace extremely rural so maybe there are places where you pretty much would have to shoot your horse or sell it to a meat buyer? I don't know.

I would not keep a horse around if I felt I was in danger. I don't see a problem with finding a good home for a horse if things aren't working out. But I do think an owner owes their horse to opt for euthanizing over the meat truck. Gosh even a bullet to the head is better than the haul to Mexico with a knife in their neck. Even the worst horse deserves better.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

> you still have to figure out what to do with the body.


Do vets ever dispose of the body? I know you can pay to have them dispose of a dog or cat. What about a horse? I would think and hope that there is some type of disposal service.
What about if a horse dies on your property? What happens to the body then?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

This is coming down to the whole slaughter debate again. Some people feel it's perfectly fine to sell a horse to meat - they are livestock, after all. Some people feel it's wrong to sell a horse to meat, they feel that horses are pets.

Disposal can be a problem in some areas. Not impossible, I'm sure if you searched long and hard enough you'd find some option in nearly every instance, but it comes down to whether or not it's feasable. Some horse owners live paycheque to paycheque, and simply can't afford a vet or disposal. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's a simple fact of life.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

I definitely do not want to get into the slaughter debate. I've read those ad nauseum.

I don't mean this to get into the territory of is it moral to sell horses for meat. (for me personally, a horse is a pet and I wouldn't sell my horse for meat any sooner than I'd sell my dog or cat) BUT that is not the issue.....

I was asking seriously why some people make it sound like they didn't have a choice but to sell to a meat buyer. If you chose to do it, then fine. Just say, " I made the choice...."

It's making it sound like you had NO choice that I'm not understanding. That's why I was asking. 

I was really wondering if some people live in places so rural that there are no vets around? Or is it hard to find an equine vet who will euthanize? 
I know there are plenty of dealers and traders who will sell a horse for meat and not bat an eye.

I was just having a hard time understanding a scenerio where a person bought a horse for a pet, paid trainers to help with behaviors, planned on spending X dollars a month in food and vet bills.....but then it ends up on the meat truck because it's cheaper than euthanizing.

So can I assume that these comments are just people making it sound like they had no choice but to send the horse on the meat truck? I mean, if someone feels that's their right to do it, then why not just say that? Why make it sound like a sob story where you just didn't have the choice?
I'd respect a person more if they said they shot their own horse than the person who make it sound like there were violins playing as they sadly collected their money from the meat buyer.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

My guess is that if they posted "welp, selling to the meat buyer" rather than making it out to be a big sad sob story, people would jump on them for being insensitive.
Darned if you do, darned if you don't. 
Euthanization doesn't have to be the pink stuff in a syringe, either. A bullet is just as effective, just not as "pretty" if you will.
I'm willing to bet that IF someone really wanted to, they could likely figure out a way to euthanize rather than sell to the meat man. Some people don't have the time, energy, or budget to explore those routes. I won't get into the ethics of it, but for some people, euthanization isn't feasible for one reason or another. I'm sure most could rather not sell to the meat man, and some don't care.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

People look at horses differently. I would NOT put my horses at the auction (aka meat truck in many cases). However I know plenty of people, who have no problem sending horse to the auction.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

I have found that people (in general) will only do what's best for them, NOT what's best for the animal, whether it be a dog, cat or horse, etc. Seen too many people that wouldn't put poor little FiFi down because THEY couldn't stand to lose their pet. It didn't matter that little FiFi was old as the hills, incontinent, blind and toothless. I personnaly wouldn't sell to a meat truck and would shoot my horse myself if I couldn't afford a vet.


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

I live in a pretty rural area and there's not really any good horse vets here. The one that is a horse vet doesn't care about horses and takes horse meds for headaches and the closest better vets are 45 minutes up to an hour away. But all the vets I know will euthanize a horse.
If somebody just sells them for slaughter before trying to sell them to an individual buyer it tells me they don't care one bit about that horse and just want it gone. For me, none of the horses I will ever sell are going to see an auction. I've been to one horse sale and that made up my mind right then. Selling them to anyone who I think is shady or just wanting to sell for slaughter won't buy my horses either. 
I know in some areas you can't bury a horse and in that case it's either burn them or have someone come get the body.
If you can bury them you're going to need a backhoe and if you don't own one you may have a hard time finding someone to dig a hole and get the horse buried and it may be expensive. If you have the space where you can just drag the body off in an isolated corner and let it decompose that is an option. Growing up on the farm we had an area in the woods where cows were dragged to decompose and I had to do that with 2 horses who died. My preference is to bury them but that wasn't an option. So yes, sometimes you have no way of disposing the body but I don't think selling a horse to slaughter should be your first option. Every owner should be responsible enough to make sure they do all they can to send them to good homes.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

For the disposal issue, everyone who owns a horse should have a disposal plan. What if you walk out to the barn one day and the horse is dead? Meat man isn't going to clean up that mess. So you do have to have some type of disposal plan if you own a horse. At some point, the horse is going to die.

But I guess I just take issue with people who make it seem as though the meat truck was something they were forced to do rather than a choice. If you feel there was nothing wrong with what you did, just own up to it. 

I don't see how someone could feel bad shooting their own horse, but not feel bad sending it on the meat truck. I think part of horse ownership should be the good, bad and the ugly. 

Thanks for answering everyone. I honestly couldn't understand why the meat truck was always brought up, but nobody mentioned euthanasia.





> If somebody just sells them for slaughter before trying to sell them to an individual buyer it tells me they don't care one bit about that horse and just want it gone.


That's how I see it. I just people would be more honest rather than act like they loved their horse but the meat man became their only option.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Heelsdown said:


> But what about people who just flat out sell to a meat buyer and act like they had no other option? I don't get that.


_Maybe it is their last option. How do you know what they have and haven't tried? It is very possible that they tried to market the horse unsuccessfully, and sending it to auction was the last chance the horse had at going to a good home._



_I have never heard of someone selling directly to a meat buyer._




> I can't see how a person could say they put so much time and money into their beloved pet but then had no choice but to sell it to the meat buyer?


_Not everyone views horses as pets. There are still a lot of people who view them as their income, and therefore stay detached from them. Yeah, they may enjoy their horses or the horses that they train, but they also realize that that is how they make a living. _

_Plus, horses in some parts of the country are still working animals, not a pet. If that horse isn't working out, then it needs to be gone, yesterday, so that money isn't being put into a non-working animal._



_Not to sound callous, but some horses aren't worth the money that the meat buyer pays for them, and the owners are lucky to get something to cover the fuel they spent to get the horse to the auction house._


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

I completely understand that some horses aren't viewed as pets. That isn't news to me. 

I know a lot about horses. And I also know that what I know is the tip of the iceberg. I'm here on this forum to learn.

I honestly didn't understand why some people acted like they had no other option but the meat buyer. And there ARE people who have said they sold to a meat buyer. Perhaps they meant they sold the horse to a middle man, I don't know. But they sold the horse knowing fully well it was going to be meat.

My question wasn't, "How could they do that to their pet?" because I understand that it wasn't a pet to them. 
My question was, "Is euthanasia not an option in some places?" Because selling your horse for meat is never your *only* option IF there is euthansia available.

I guess it's the word "only" that I was stuck on. To say the meat truck was their only option is kind of a swiss cheese argument. It's full of holes. 

"Euthanizing costs money." But if a person doesn't have the money for euth. then how were they planning on feeding and caring for the horse anyway? If you can't afford to kill your horse, then it's probably a good indication that you can't afford a horse, period. 

"Disposal costs money." But what would that person have done if they came out to the barn one day and the horse was dead? They'd still have to find a way to dispose of it. If you can't afford to dispose of a horse's body, you can't afford it to begin with.

I've read people flat out say the meat truck was their only option after spending so much time and money on a horse. So at that point, euthanizing it is just throwing good money after bad. They don't want to spend any more money. I get that. Don't agree with it, but I understand that. 

But then why not just say, " I didn't want to spend any more money on this horse". Why make it sound like you had no choice but to sell it for meat?

That is misinformation and really kind of annoying for people like me who are here to learn. It just sounds very shady.


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## SkyeAngel (Sep 8, 2010)

I see your point, op. But I think I know the thread you are talking about, and I think the comments of the poster meant the following (In summary):

They bought the horse and tried to train it but found that with all their efforts it was downright dangerous. Because of this they were not able to sell the horse, mainly because there are so many good horses out there, no one is willing to pay for one that might kill them. (At this point the poster could have made a profit by selling to a killer, but decided to give the horse away in the hope that _someone_ could help it). The meat truck comment was supposed to mean "the horse probably ended up on the meat truck because I doubt anyone could get through to it". The poster did not WANT it to go for meat, and they did not KNOW it had gone for meat, but probably felt that it was unlikely that someone paid hundreds to euthanize a horse that they had already made a loss on.

Of course I understand that your horses are your babies. Mine are too and I would not sell them for meat. But A horse that puts your life in danger is different. I would not feel the sentiment for it that I do for a horse I could actually bond with. I would not want to send it for meat, but cannot see myself willing to pay hundereds to have it put down. If I am completely honest, I would probably have given the horse away. And when you give a horse away, you don't know where it will end up.


I think the comment is fair because I think most people I know would be reluctant to spend the money to euthanize a dangerous but otherwise healthy horse.

I will also add that sometimes it is kinder for a horse to go than it is to have them moved constantly from place to place because no one wants them. Also just because they have gone for meat does not mean they will suffer a terrible death that is so much worse than slaughter. Not all places are inhumane, despite a lot of PETA dramatisation.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Heelsdown said:


> For the disposal issue, everyone who owns a horse should have a disposal plan. What if you walk out to the barn one day and the horse is dead? Meat man isn't going to clean up that mess. So you do have to have some type of disposal plan if you own a horse. At some point, the horse is going to die.


I agree with this in theory.

The problem comes in when what you thought was your disposal plan was not available anymore.

I was shocked to hear that the rendering company in my area will not pick up horses anymore.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Don't have time to read the whole thread but I wanted to add about disposal. Some counties will come out and dig a hole on your property for you to bury a livestock animal. In the case of my county, you have to call the sherrif's department and they bring a backhoe out usually the same day, especially if it's a death by disease. Ensuring the animal is burried deeply is the counties most effective way to prevent the spread of disease. Call your sherrifs department and/or city hall, I'm sure someone would know if there was a program like that available in your county if need be.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

And then there are other areas where it not legal to bury on your property, period. (Risk of contamination to the water table.)


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## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

Plus, a lot of horse owners don't even think about what they'd do if their horse just died unexpectedly. People just assume the horse will live to be old and they don't have to think about disposing it when the horse is still young. Usually when their first horse dies they think about a disposal plan for future horses. It's like young people in general don't write out a will in their 20s, they expect to live a full life and worry about it later on 
Even if you don't like the horse you shouldn't be ok if it has a terrible fate. I had a Paint gelding who turned very aggressive towards people, charging and running at them, trying to bite,etc. He wouldn't do anything under saddle and when he became aggressive on the ground he had to go but I was very honest about what he acted like and ended up doing a partial trade for my next horse. The people who took him were horse trainers and I know they were good with horses. They couldn't do anything with him either and in the end they sold him at a horse auction and that's the last I know of Sleepers White Pride. But I did my part in trying to get him to a good home with people who had a good chance of turning him around.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> And then there are other areas where it not legal to bury on your property, period. (Risk of contamination to the water table.)


I've heard of this, too. So there has to be some type of disposal option for a horse owner. Surely someone has had a horse die on their property. I'm just a very detailed person and this is the kind of grim stuff I think about. I would have to know what I would do should I walk out to the barn one day and find a dead horse. 



> I think the comment is fair because I think most people I know would be reluctant to spend the money to euthanize a dangerous but otherwise healthy horse.


I'm of the opinion that there is no place in this world for a dangerous horse. Unless you are living alone in some cabin in a remote area, you are at some point going to put someone or some thing in danger if your horse is a danger. But I guess I still can't understand why you wouldn't have the horse put down yourself. I can see not wanting to spend the money. I mean, who likes vet bills? lol. But I guess I view it as all a part of horse ownership. Caring, feeding, vet bills, euthanizing, disposing. I'd see it as all my responsibility. I'd feel, I don't know, cheesy, selling the horse for meat and then saying I didn't have a choice, ya know? 

I've read many posts where I wondered if maybe people didn't realize they could have a horse euthanized based on their posts. Or maybe it wasn't an option. 

I honestly wish slaughter was legal in the US. Peta tactics aside, there is just no way that horses packed inside trucks with no food or water for days before they are killed isn't cruel. But I realize that's another issue.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Heelsdown said:


> I honestly wish slaughter was legal in the US.


It _is_ legal, Heels. It's just not legal to sell it for human consumption in the US.

I can take one of my horses to the local slaughter house and have it butchered for my own consumption. I just can't _sell_ the meat. I can _give_ it away, but I can't sell it.

Except for California and Oregon, horse slaughter is still legal in the US.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

It is very illegal in PA to dispose of a horse. They have recently added a few options to make it slightly less expensive but you do need a rendering person. Burying a horse in PA is illegal. Burning a body is illegal. If your site is inspected, I believe they will allow you to 'compost' a horse though. 

Back to the OP, I think some people get in over their heads with horses and just need them gone. No quicker way than to send them to the auction. I personally have no problem with auctions or slaughter. I've gotten some great horses at auction. As far as slaughter goes, I think there are so many horses and not enough homes. The surplus has to go somewhere. Not everyone can afford to keep a horse through thick or thin. 

Off Topic but...some horses are at auction and on the meat truck for a reason. Some are dangerous, sick, injured...etc. If it is a horse that you aren't attached to, what difference does it make if you put it down in your field or the slaughter house does?


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> It _is_ legal, Heels. It's just not legal to sell it for human consumption in the US.
> 
> I can take one of my horses to the local slaughter house and have it butchered for my own consumption. I just can't _sell_ the meat. I can _give_ it away, but I can't sell it.
> 
> Except for California and Oregon, horse slaughter is still legal in the US.


sorry, thanks for clarifying that for me. I meant I wish the slaughterhouses in the US hadn't closed down. I know that people can kill their own livestock.
Which is another reason why I can't fathom a meat truck being a better option for a dangerous horse. A bullet to the head is kinder. More work for the owner, yes, but again, who said horses were easy? lol


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Heelsdown said:


> I've heard of this, too. So there has to be some type of disposal option for a horse owner. Surely someone has had a horse die on their property. I'm just a very detailed person and this is the kind of grim stuff I think about. I would have to know what I would do should I walk out to the barn one day and find a dead horse.


The problem is, you do not know the rendering company will not come until you are stuck in that situation.

Someone I know had to have a horse put down a little bit back. Everyone was shocked to learn the rendering company was not an option. It took several days to find a way to dispose of the body. Good thing it all happened in the middle of winter. The option that was finally found was not cheap either.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

> As far as slaughter goes, I think there are so many horses and not enough homes. The surplus has to go somewhere. Not everyone can afford to keep a horse through thick or thin.


Agreed. I know this from doing dog and cat rescue. I could never understand why people could say they were against euthanizing. I mean what are we supposed to do with all of the unwanted animals? Stockpile them in warehouses? Let them go into a hoarder situation? We need to educate people on being more responsible but in the meantime, euthanizing is the only option for the unwanted animals we have. 




> Off Topic but...some horses are at auction and on the meat truck for a reason. Some are dangerous, sick, injured...etc. If it is a horse that you aren't attached to, what difference does it make if you put it down in your field or the slaughter house does?


The difference isn't for the owner, it's for the horse. A quick bullet to the head in a field is a far more humane than the haul to Mexico or Canada. There's a huge difference. 

I mean, we all know that while horses aren't only a luxury for the wealthy, but let's face it, they aren't for poor people either. If you are living hand to mouth, horses are NOT the business for you. A horse is not the pet for you. So when someone who can afford a horse, let alone multiple horses speaks as though they literally didn't have the money to humanely euthanize their horse, it just sounds bogus to me. 

It seems the truth of the matter is, they didn't want to spend the money. Far cry from not having the money. Nobody likes vet bills. They suck. I don't think it has anything to do with being attached to an animal. I'm not attached to the neighbor's dog down the street. Doesn't mean I'd want to see it packed on a truck with 100 other dogs headed to Mexico or Canada, terrified the whole way. 
Doesn't make me a bleeding heart. Doesn't mean I'm anthropomorphic . It just means I have a modicum of compassion for a being that feels pain and fear.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I understand where you're coming from, Heels. 

While I have no problem with equine slaughter, I do think the long truck rides are completely inhumane.

It's not the deaths that bother me so much, as the suffering the animals are forced to go through _before_ those deaths.

If the plants were reopened here the US, the rides would be much shorter and the horses would meet their ultimate fates more quickly.

Dead is dead, and what you do with the body afterward isn't my concern. My concern is for the living animal and what its existence is like _before_ it dies.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> I understand where you're coming from, Heels.
> 
> While I have no problem with equine slaughter, I do think the long truck rides are completely inhumane.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I'm glad you understand what I'm saying. To deny the cruelty involved in leading up until the time the animal is killed is just sticking one's head in the sand. From the auction, until the horse is killed and everything in between, is just a grotesque way for a horse to die. And there are so many good horses, that gave their hearts to their owners that end up that way. It's just not dangerous or mean horses that "deserved" their fate. 
So basically the meat truck and auctions are convenient for owners, but it's definitely a stretch to say they were the only option for an unwanted horse.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Heelsdown said:


> It's making it sound like you had NO choice that I'm not understanding. That's why I was asking.
> 
> I was really wondering if some people live in places so rural that there are no vets around? Or is it hard to find an equine vet who will euthanize?
> I know there are plenty of dealers and traders who will sell a horse for meat and not bat an eye.
> ...


Yes - there are places that rural. Do YOU know how to properly shoot a horse to ensure it will not suffer?

YOUR decision to not send a horse down the road on a truck. Many individuals do not have the option. It's not a sob story.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Heelsdown said:


> euthanizing is the only option for the unwanted animals we have.


_No it is not the *ONLY* option. _

_It might be the more humane option, but you cannot tell me that everyone is going to go euthanize their animal. Not to mention the horses that have been left to starve a few times._

_Some animals are going to get shot, some animals are going to be set free to fend for themselves, others taken to auction or to the pound._


_Again, not everyone sees their horses at pets, but you keep saying this repeatedly. _

_Just because people own multiple horses doesn't mean that they have the extra money laying around for a euthanization. I would bet $10 (that I do not have) that there are several members on this board who own a horse or horses, that would be hard pressed to come up with the money tomorrow, if they needed to euthanize a horse._


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

mls said:


> Yes - there are places that rural. Do YOU know how to properly shoot a horse to ensure it will not suffer?
> 
> YOUR decision to not send a horse down the road on a truck. Many individuals do not have the option. It's not a sob story.


Well I know how to shoot a cow, so I imagine a horse isn't much different. And if there is anyone who could shoot a horse so it didn't suffer, it's people in rural areas. But it doesn't matter if I could or not. I've scraped before with money. If I had an old, sick or injured horse, he'd be euthed. by the vet, whatever that cost would be. 

When you say "not an option" are you referring strictly to finances or that there is not a vet in these rural areas? If there is no vet, then what happens to horses that are injured? They can't be selling every injured horse. I realize there aren't vets around the corner, but I would hope that a horse owner, even one in a rural area, does have a vet that they use, no?

I'm just not sure what you mean by they don't have the option. That was my original question. The only answer I've seen so far is they didn't want to spend the money.

I have no doubt that there are many people who are tight on money. Gosh I've been there myself. And vet bills always have a way of coming up at THE worst times. But I have a hard time believing that every person who has sold to auction did so because of money reasons and not because of convenience.

I thought when I started this post that perhaps there were people who truly believed that a horse they couldn't use anymore could be euthanized or that maybe it wasn't an option. But I kind of answered my own question. In a rural area, you'd still need a vet for an injured horse, so the rural thing doesn't really make sense.
I guess I'm looking for an answer that I'm not going to find. I just can't imagine spending so much time and money with an animal but still not seeing it as anything more than livestock that is meant to be eaten. Different mindset I guess.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

> Just because people own multiple horses doesn't mean that they have the extra money laying around for a euthanization. I would bet $10 (that I do not have) that there are several members on this board who own a horse or horses, that would be hard pressed to come up with the money tomorrow, if they needed to euthanize a horse.[/I]


I'm sure that is true and I would *implore *those people to look long and hard at their finances and maybe come to terms with the fact that horse ownership isn't for them. What are they going to do if that animal breaks a leg? What would they do if their horse got sick or hurt? If a person is hurting for money that bad, then spending hundreds a month just for a horse's care is just whistling past the graveyard.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Heelsdown said:


> I just can't imagine spending so much time and money with an animal but still not seeing it as anything more than livestock that is meant to be eaten. Different mindset I guess.


There's nothing wrong with your mindset, but there's also nothing wrong with someone who sees horses only as livestock. 

Cattle farmers treat their animals well but know ahead of time that the majority of them will be on someone's dinner plate, or that they'll be providing milk. 

The vast majority of these farmers have cows that are special to them, and who will be euthed instead of sold when they stop producing. So are they hypocrites for keeping one or two animals who have become special to them and sending the rest off to slaughter? I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that I don't condemn them for their lifestyle.

It's okay not to agree with someone, but it's not okay to impose our views on them and expect them to live by our desires just because we may not like how they do things.

Horses are livestock for better or worse, and I'd rather they_ stay_ livestock instead of being designated as companion animals.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> There's nothing wrong with your mindset, but there's also nothing wrong with someone who sees horses only as livestock.
> 
> Cattle farmers treat their animals well but know ahead of time that the majority of them will be on someone's dinner plate, or that they'll be providing milk.
> 
> ...


Yes but from the time a cow is born, you know it's going to be food. Horses are a completely different purpose. So while horses are legally considered livestock, I'm always surprised when someone who isn't a dealer or trader could even put then in the same category.
Are people here playing devil's advocate or do they really only see their horse as something that will end up as food in Mexico when they're done playing with it? 
I know fully well there are plenty of people who see horses as status symbols or things they use to win competitions and show off their pretty ribbons. That's not what I came here looking for. I want to be a part of community of horse lovers, not a livestock board.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Humane Horse Remains Disposal : The Humane Society of the United States

I believe the plants were shut down because the Government (tax payers) were not longer willing to fund for inspectors for a 'product' we don't consume here. Also the amount of medications given to most horses makes the meat questionable. Holding pens for weeks before slaughter to clear systems don't work well either.

As a side note, just as information, one of my vets works as an inspector at a slaughter plant for cattle. His job is to ensure that the cattle are treated humanely & to pull any sick ones from the line. He said the slaughter experience is different between horses & cattle. Cattle spend their whole lives together, often in close quarters with one another, usually moved as a group & are used to chutes. They just follow along & show no fear even when the captive bolt is held to their heads. That is not the case with horses.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Heelsdown said:


> Are people here playing devil's advocate or do they really only see their horse as something that will end up as food in Mexico when they're done playing with it?
> .


I can only speak for myself but my horses are a very important part of my life, as individuals. I give them the best in life & I am there when that life comes to as peaceful an end as possible. All have a final resting place here at home. I even allow outside horses to come here if the owners have no other place. If I'm considered a bleeding heart so be it.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Heels, I believe we're all horse lovers on this BB. Livestock traders have their own web connections and contacts.

Horses _are_ livestock. It's not a dirty word and some horses _are_ raised as meat animals, just not here in the US. We don't raise dogs and cats as meat animals either, but some countries do.

You have the mindset of the majority of Americans, but that doesn't make it more right than a European/Oriental mindset, just different. 

My horses are pets, just like my dog and barn cats. However, I do not have the right to impose my particular beliefs on others, just as they do not have the right to impose theirs on me.

I'd rather someone _not_ send old Dobbin off to auction when he ceases to be rideable or they can't afford to keep him, but it's legal and should remain so. I may not like the path they've chosen, but I'll defend their right to continue on it.

We can't pick and choose rights based on our admittedly slanted bias of how we believe certain animals should be treated. That's a slippery slope, and can lead to us losing our _own_ rights when someone else doesn't agree with what we do with our animals.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Heelsdown said:


> Yes but from the time a cow is born, you know it's going to be food. Horses are a completely different purpose. So while horses are legally considered livestock, I'm always surprised when someone who isn't a dealer or trader could even put then in the same category.
> Are people here playing devil's advocate or do they really only see their horse as something that will end up as food in Mexico when they're done playing with it?
> I know fully well there are plenty of people who see horses as status symbols or things they use to win competitions and show off their pretty ribbons. That's not what I came here looking for. I want to be a part of community of horse lovers, not a livestock board.


_I was brought up around Standardbreds, who if they weren't making money, were normally sent down the road. My Grandparents would try their best (and after 40+ years in the business, know what they are doing) to get the horse going better, and be raceable. There was still a lot of horses that didn't cut it, so buh bye they went._

_Most likely because I was more involved in the racing industry, and only more recently got into the showing side, that I still see horses as a means of making a living, and not as pets. Sure, I adore my lesson horse, and wish he would live forever, but he is old, and isn't going to be at the barn forever. I will be sad when he is gone, but there will be another lesson horse to replace him when he goes. That is just how things are._

_There is nothing wrong with viewing horses as livestock, as that is what they are. Just because you view your horse as a pet, doesn't mean I have to, or that others do. It doesn't make us bad people either._

_Personally, I would much rather be realistic. If a horse is dangerous, I would rather he be shot, euthed or sent down the road. If being sent down the road means going on the meat truck, well, thats too bad. But at least he isn't going to hurt some kid who thinks they are a wonderful trainer that can fix anything._


_ETA: I bet this is going to make me sound like I am super callous, but I just want to add that I bawled my eyes out when my first pony passed away of natural causes. I was heart broken, but I moved on. She remains special to me, as any first pony would to any little girl or boy._


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Natisha, thank you and I agree. Horses can be terrified of plastic bags. I can only imagine how terrifying the haul to slaughter must be for them. 



> so buh bye they went.


How? Were they sold for slaughter? A friend of the family raced horses in upstate NY. A horse that couldn't race and win was useless. I don't care for the industry but I understand it. But I do remember the vet coming to their farm to euthanize many a race horse and hauling the horse's body away. 
I don't recall them being sold for slaughter. 


I do NOT see livestock as a dirty word. Far, far from it. My father's side of the family made their living as chicken farmers. I'm on the front line for keeping working farms and we only buy meat from local farmers.





> Personally, I would much rather be realistic.


 Absolutely! And there is nothing more realistic than having the income to support your horses, having a plan of what to do if that horse is injured, if it dies, how will you pay for it, etc. That is very realistic. 

To say one isn't sure what they will do if their horse has a life threatening injury or they don't know if they don't know if they can't afford to euthanize their own horse, or where or if they can dispose of it, or where a vet is because they live in a rural area is very unrealistic.

To sell it to auction and pretend it got a wonderful home is unrealistic. 
To pretend your horse doesn't feel pain or fear is unrealistic. 
To say that horses that were beloved pets don't end up in slaughter is unrealistic. 




> If a horse is dangerous, I would rather he be shot, euthed


Agreed.



> or sent down the road.


 I'm not sure what this means. Is "sent down the road" a euphemism for sent to slaughter? 



> If being sent down the road means going on the meat truck, well, thats too bad. But at least he isn't going to hurt some kid who thinks they are a wonderful trainer that can fix anything.


It's also unrealistic to think that horses that end up in slaughter were dangerous or problem horses. Many, many times their only offense was they got old or suffered an injury. 



> Just because I believe horses are livestock, doesn't make me a bad person.


Not a bad person. It's how someone treats their livestock that makes them a decent or cruel person, IMO. And right now, the horse slaughter industry is cruel. Anyone who knowingly sends their horse to slaughter is no better than the person who packed their horse on the truck or the person that kills the horse. They are cowards for not having the stones to give their horse a quick death. 
I think we've already established that there are other ways to dispose of a horse other than slaughter. If someone is tough enough to be a farmer or in the livestock industry, then they should be tough enough and knowledgeable enough to provide a quick death for their horse.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

> Absolutely! And there is nothing more realistic than having the income to support your horses, having a plan of what to do if that horse is injured, if it dies, how will you pay for it, etc. That is very realistic.


Yes. I think a lot of people go into horse ownership thinking the purchase price and board are the only major expenses they'll have. They don't think forward and plan how to pay for unexpected emergencies or even regular vet bills. 

This doesn't only happen with horses, it happens with dogs and cats as well. There are so many stories of people not being able to afford vet care for a sick pet, but they didn't think twice about the purchase price. 

We are a society of impulse buyers and sometimes the animals pay for it. I don't think that's something that will ever change, even though it should.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Heelsdown said:


> How? Were they sold for slaughter?
> 
> I'm not sure what this means. Is "sent down the road" a euphemism for sent to slaughter?


_I don't know where they are, as my Grandparents didn't tell me where exactly each of them went. Some of them would have been better off in the slaughter house then a buggy horse for a select group of Amish around here. Many have ended up as good buggy horses for others. _




> It's also unrealistic to think that horses that end up in slaughter were dangerous or problem horses. Many, many times their only offense was they got old or suffered an injury.


_I never said all horses that end up at slaughter are dangerous or problem horses. I completely and realistically realize that._




> And right now, the horse slaughter industry is cruel. Anyone who knowingly sends their horse to slaughter is no better than the person who packed their horse on the truck or the person that kills the horse. They are cowards for not having the stones to give their horse a quick death.


_As much as the start of this thread was made to sound like it wasn't an anti-slaughter thread by you, that is what it has turned into, by you._


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

> As much as the start of this thread was made to sound like it wasn't an anti-slaughter thread by you, that is what it has turned into, by you.


Because I started out sincerely asking what type of situation a person could be in where they had no other choice but to sell to auction. 

From all of the defenses I've read here, I'm seeing that there is none. When a person says they had no choice, what they are really saying is they didn't want to deal with euthanasia. 

I'm not anti slaughter. The pink juice or a bullet are a humane way for a horse to die.

I'm anti- Mexico or Canada slaughter because of the conditions the horses suffer in order to die. 

I'm also anti "I had no choice but to sell my horse to to the meat man" when it really means, " I didn't want to pay the money to see my horse have a humane end". Stop with the euphemisms. 

I hope everyone sees the difference. Because there is a big difference.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Different people see their choices in different ways, when I took my poor Raven* to the vet, he gave his prognosis on her, she wasn't going to be fit to breed or ride anymore, he asked if I was taking her to the Auction. He didn't mean anything bad by it, around here it is normal for unproductive stock to go the auction, be it cow or horse.

She didn't get sent, she came home and lived another 6 months before we finally had to take the option to have her euthanized.

I personally could see options, for other people (like my husband) he would have no problem sending her to the auction, he is a farmer through and through, everything has to earn its place.



*Raven was a mare that was bought sight unseen as a ride and drive mare, who was also going to be part of my broodmare band. When she arrived here it turned out she wasn't quite as advertised, and was more of a rescue case. All in all we had less than a year with her, poor girl.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Heelsdown, I think you are talking about being responsible. Being responsible for the animal and doing right by both the animal and the next person on down the line.

I agree with you 100%. I would rather euthanize an old horse than give it away. (That is one of my biggest pet peeves, people dumping old and /or lame horses because they aren't useful anymore). And it would be better to euthanize a truly dangerous horse than give it away. It would be the responsible thing to do.

There is a gray area though where sometimes you just have to hope for the best. The horse is not truly dangerous for everyone, but is too much horse for you personally. Then what do you do? I bought a pair of horses like that one time. I ended up selling them for nearly nothing at auction. I know the mare is still out there tormenting people, because I heard from one of her owners (who bought her from a horse dealer who bought her at auction). I don't know what happened to the gelding. I hope he found a good home. But he was a real brat and he was just way too much for me to deal with. So I dunno. It's those gray areas that bother me. You want to give the horse a chance, but you truly don't know where it will end up. :-(


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Heelsdown said:


> Because I started out sincerely asking what type of situation a person could be in where they had no other choice but to sell to auction.


_Well, I guess I didn't realize that ALLLLL auction houses, and I mean every single one of them, have horses go to slaughter. /sarcasm_

_Maybe I am lucky that I live in an area that most auction places sell good decent horses around here. If the reserve isn't met, then the horse stays with the owner. _

_The sales barn in town might have a kill buyer frequent it, but not that many good quality horses go through it anymore. _

_So yes, an auction might be my last choice if I have tried everything I am able to, including outside trainers, to fix a horse that I am having problems with. However, I would choose to send it to the better auction place, knowing that the horse could possibly come back home with me._


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Golden Horse that is sad about Raven. I'm glad you were there for her.



> Heelsdown, I think you are talking about being responsible.


 yes



> Being responsible for the animal and doing right by both the animal and the next person on down the line.


Absolutely. I don't know how people live with themselves when they sell or give away horses and lie about their behavior. Full disclosure, 100%.



> (That is one of my biggest pet peeves, people dumping old and /or lame horses because they aren't useful anymore).


 It's pretty crappy. Then to act as though they were forced to do it is even worse 



> And it would be better to euthanize a truly dangerous horse than give it away. It would be the responsible thing to do.


Absolutely. Not only, I guess from doing dog and cat rescue for so many years, I kind of apply the same rule to horses. For the time and money you put into one, you can save 10. As an owner, one can only realistically put so much into one horse before you have to just call it a day. I just don't believe in calling it a day by selling to slaughter.

I know what you mean about not knowing where a horse will end up. That's part of life. I've adopted out many animals and all I can do is hope that it's a good home, but there are no guarantees. 



> Well, I guess I didn't realize that ALLLLL auction houses, and I mean every single one of them, have horses go to slaughter. /sarcasm


There's no need for sarcasm. I know all horses that go to auction don't end up at slaughter. If my posts implied that, then I apologize. 

I know many horses get homes and many don't. Since the economy has worsened, unfortunately, so have the chances of a horse finding a home. 

There is nothing wrong with an owner sending a horse to auction to sell if they take it back should it not sell. It's turning a blind eye to what happens if it doesn't sell that's the problem.



> The sales barn in town might have a kill buyer frequent it, but not that many good quality horses go through it anymore.


And a horse that is a senior, has health issues or lameness isn't considered good quality. I'm sorry, but I feel they deserve better than the meat truck. I realize that being a pasture pet is not an option for all horses. But to say the meat truck is the only other option is just going to the other end of the spectrum. There are options in between.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Heelsdown said:


> I'm sure that is true and I would *implore *those people to look long and hard at their finances and maybe come to terms with the fact that horse ownership isn't for them. What are they going to do if that animal breaks a leg? What would they do if their horse got sick or hurt? If a person is hurting for money that bad, then spending hundreds a month just for a horse's care is just whistling past the graveyard.


I do not disagree with what you are saying.

The other side of this coin are people who have had horses, had the money to more than simply provide for them, etc but are now going through a rough time.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I do not disagree with what you are saying.
> 
> The other side of this coin are people who have had horses, had the money to more than simply provide for them, etc but are now going through a rough time.


I know what you mean and I see that a lot now. I know the BO was telling me how once the economy tanked, so did the horse industry. While horses are considered livestock, this isn't the 1800's, and they really have evolved into the pet/hobby category. An expensive pet/hobby. And the type of clients who own horses are also the type who were hit hardest by the economy. I see that a lot up here in Connecticut.


I don't believe in keeping pets during the fruitful times in our lives and dumping them when times get tough. But horses as we all know, are far more costly than a typical pet would be. If a person is hurting that bad, selling is probably the best thing for them and their horse. Don't wait until the horse is sick or hurt and the only option for selling is the meat man. 


And for people who don't even consider their horses their pets at all, well, selling shouldn't be that tough a decision for them if times are tight. If you can't afford to give your horse a humane death, then how can you possibly afford to keep it alive? 
I believe a person can be detached from their horse as a pet, but still responsible, caring and humane enough not to send them on a meat truck. 


Another great option, especially for people not that attached to their horse....I was reading about places that take horse meat to feed animals in sanctuaries such as zoos or big cat sanctuary. I personally couldn't do that, but if a person isn't attached to their horse, they could give their horse a more humane death by saving them the grueling trip to Canada or Mexico. Apparently some places will pick your horse up and other places require that you drop them off. They use a bolt gun. Like I said, I couldn't do it. I'm one of those that would want to plant a tree in the ground next to my horse's body, lol. But at least this is a more humane option and is *free* to the owner. 
I realize it's not possible in many places, but it's something a person could definitely look into if they are limited on options. I would do everything in my power to save a horse the trip to Mexico or Canada. Until they can change the laws for horse slaughter in this country, even the meanest old codger doesn't deserve the meat truck.


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## eclaire23 (Oct 26, 2010)

Heelsdown, your question isn't really a question. Its a statement. The people probably didnt have a choice. When a average horse cost a owner $200-500 a month. It gets kinda costly. I my eye. When a horse can no longer work its daily price off it needs to be retired. Sadly there are more animals than humans. And where I would love to save them all. Euthanasia is best- but slaughter<- (such a foul word) is more practical. 

Think of the issue this way would you rather have a rotting corpse in your back yard thats doing no good- or the thought of knowing the "problem" horse actually went to do some good for something/somebody.

I strongly disagree with sending a problem horse though. Its just lazy to buy a horse with a temper or problem then not train it properly. The whole excuse "It can be trained" is a hunk of poop. 

When the horse becomes a danger to people or himself thats when its okay to seek other options.

I feel you on this issue. It's hard to wrap oneself around the idea.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Heelsdown said:


> I don't believe in keeping pets during the fruitful times in our lives and dumping them when times get tough. But horses as we all know, are far more costly than a typical pet would be. If a person is hurting that bad, selling is probably the best thing for them and their horse. Don't wait until the horse is sick or hurt and the only option for selling is the meat man.


Um. Sure. Life is not that simple.

With the exception of some I highly doubt most horse owners say, 'I know I am broke and I will never be able to afford to give Dobbin proper care but I am too selfish so I will never part with him'.

Selling is not always easy. Lots of horses are not truly placeable. 

Add that people like to think they will not get stuck in that hole for that long. Who wants to sell Dobbin when they are sure there is a job right around the corner.

Then something tragic happens and .....


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

> Heelsdown, your question isn't really a question. Its a statement


 Well it started off as a question. I really wanted to know why an owner wouldn't consider euthanasia or even shooting a horse before letting it go on a meat truck, knowing what the horse will endure before it dies. All I'm reading is that cost and convenience are the two reasons.

And really, what is the ratio of people who truly can't afford the euthanasia versus people who just don't want to spend the money. Sadly it seems the latter is the case more than the former. 



Of course things happen and life happens. But can we really deny that most horses who end up on the slaughter truck had owners who really tried their best? I think it's much more realistic that their owners picked the easiest choice.
I know that not all horses are sellable or even giveable. If a horse can't be sold or given away, what a wrong with an owner showing a little compassion and trying to give their horse to a local zoo, or pay the $100 to have the vet euth? 
It seems like a little bit of effort and planning on an owner's part would go a long, long way. But people have already admitted that if a horse isn't useful, they don't care if it suffers before it dies so it really is pointless.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I believe I sent a horse to slaughter. 




Heelsdown said:


> Perhaps they meant they sold the horse to a middle man, I don't know. But they sold the horse knowing fully well it was going to be meat.
> 
> My question wasn't, "How could they do that to their pet?" because I understand that it wasn't a pet to them.


My horses are pets to me, I love them dearly - but I made a terrible error a few years ago and bought one that must have been drugged. It took several weeks for the true personality to show, however when it did, the horse was completely dangerous. She could not be led without rearing (full rear, full height). 
Under saddle it was worse, she would turn into a bucking bronco ride. Rear, buck, rear, rear, buck, twist. She was terrible. So I rode her in the walk only for about a year, that didn't help. I took her back to basics and restarted her, that didn't work. She would charge at me in the round pen, and it was not because I was not assertive enough. I had 3 different trainers work with her, nothing helped. 

I owned her for 2 years, spent a fortune on her and a lot of my own time trying to get her right. Myself and three trainers were not able to. She was just dangerous. I did not want to put her in an auction, she could not have been ridden through it or if she was, that would have guaranteed her slaughter. 

So I listed her for sale for $100 negotiable. I listed all of her problems, was completely honest. I thought the $100 price would put off meat men. After four months, I had no interest and had spent more than $1k on board. So I listed her for free. 

A pleasant couple came out to see her with a trailer. I was completely upfront about her behavior, they were unconcerned and claimed they had trained many horses. they saw her antics when we tried to load her, even with Ace she was rearing like crazy, they were still unconcerned and we loaded her with a chain through her mouth after about an hour of trying everything else. 

It just doesn't make sense to me that she did not go for meat, why on earth would they want her. However they said the right things, so I felt it was worth a chance. 

I am not against horse slaughter, I would not want my horses to go to it though. There was a chance they were telling the truth, and I thought it was worth taking that chance.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

AlexS said:


> I believe I sent a horse to slaughter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sadly, there are people who make a living posing as great potential owners when that is not their intention. That's why they show up with a trailer, ask all the right questions & never have a problem with behavior issues. They target the free or cheap ads & hopeful people.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

natisha said:


> Sadly, there are people who make a living posing as great potential owners when that is not their intention. That's why they show up with a trailer, ask all the right questions & never have a problem with behavior issues. They target the free or cheap ads & hopeful people.



I don't doubt that - that's why I started my post with I think I sold a horse to slaughter. (ETA sold is not the right word, I gave her away)
It seemed so very unlikely that they would want her and be unconcerned with her issues. If they had not taken her, I would have euthed her, she was just too dangerous, so I figured it was at least worth the chance that they were truthful. 

I am not against horse slaughter, I am against the long drives to get there - however, this might be a terrible thing to say but I had very little feelings for that horse. This does not mean I would wish her ill or pain, however I certainly did not love her - care about her welfare yes, love no. If she ended up at slaughter, I am sorry that she endured the trip there and the stress, but I am not sorry that she has passed on. 

I let them drive off with her knowing it was a strong possibility but it was worth the chance to me, as she would have been PTS anyway soon.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Alex, I'm sorry you had to go through that. It's horrible how people can drug horses to sell them. Then try to accuse them of it, and all you'll hear is, "Well they never did that here! I sold you a bombproof horse. You must have ruined them " I'm sure there are decent horse traders out there, but so many of them are such scam artists. They'll use their kids or their grandma to lie for them.
It sounds like you did everything you could for that horse. I mean, you gave her a chance and who knows? Maybe they just wanted a project. I know there are plenty of people that like the challenge. Not me! lol. 
It's okay to not have mushy feelings toward a horse. There is a horse at the barn that I often ride whom I really don't care for at all. I do feel safe riding her, but she's just a total witch on the ground. She's bitten me several times for doing horrible things to her like grooming or putting her halter on. I definitely don't have any feelings of love for her so I get that. A rearing horse? No love from me. 

But I think we can mostly all agree that killing horses is the only option because there simply aren't enough homes for all of them. Somebody has to go. I just don't agree with the current methods of slaughter now. I couldn't send a horse on a meat truck and sleep at night unless I truly explored every single option. I could honestly go out and shoot a horse myself before letting it go on a meat truck. A good horse would be buried under the elms. A butthole would be food for the coyotes.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks for understanding Heelsdown, I was nervous to share my story as I do love my horse, I have loved every one of them until this mare. I didn't love this horse, but I did not want any bad to come to her. 

I really felt like these people were meat dealers, but they said everything right, they were not worried as they were going to put a war bridle on her. I doubt that, and I think she probably went for meat - but my next step was to get a vet out to euth anyway, so death was the ultimate option. I felt she may as well have the chance that they were telling the truth as I can't ever really know who I sell to, only how they present. 

Interestingly though, I bought her from a late teenage girl (she was in the 19-20 range). I called her and got that teenage high pitched girl voice saying 'I can't imagine why she is reacting like that'! Right. I didn't bother calling again. 
I since bought my Lucas from a horse trader who presented him accurately, and he has proven in the 2 years I have had him that he is as great as she said. 


Not including boarding costs or vets I spent over $15k in two years on a horse I could not ride and could not be lead. I am not a novice owner and I could not afford to keep going with that, three trainers were enough. I did give the 3rd trainer a lot less time than the first two but he said he did not think he could help - and I had spent more than I had available on a $2k horse. 

I believe she went to meat, unless someone pulled her out of a Camelot type lot, she had near perfect confirmation, but I doubt it. 

I lost sleep about my decision to not just have her PTS, but I think the off chance that she got a home is worth it.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

It's always possible a person is lying. But if they told you they wanted to work with her, it's definitely possible they did. At that point, you were giving her a chance. You let her go and hope for the best.
I think it's very different from someone who takes an old/injured/problem horse to an auction knowing it's going to most likely not get bought and then just walks away telling themselves the horse found a good home. That isn't being realistic or honest. Your situation is different. They said they were going to work with her. 
I really wish there could be more recourse against dishonest sellers. So many of them just prey on uneducated people who could end up killed because of their lies. It's horrible.


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