# is this even owning a horse?



## TNcowgirl35 (Apr 14, 2014)

Hey yall,

Well I recently got a job at a huge horse farm. its a million dollar horse barn that only caters to hunter-jumpers that are competitive. everyone I have met so far is really nice there. but the boarders there do nothing with their horses other than ride.. the people that work there (me included) clean the stalls, feed, water, turn out, groom, wash and tack up the horses. not to mention the board also includes 3 days of professional riding and lunging. I only see the owners sometimes and they only ride their horses for 20 mins tops or just lunge them. then afterwards they don't stick around long, usually just long enough to hand the horses back to us still fully tacked and leave. Idk, it just seems like theyre not doing anything with their horses and are missing some of the best parts about owning one. I like tacking up and caring for my horses just as much as riding them. is this common with most competitive barns? Every other barn I have worked with the boarders have always had to tack up and groom their own horses and they spent a lot of time at the barn. To me, just getting on a horse and riding doesn't really build a bond with the horse, and having other people work with the horse 5 times as much as you do doesn't make sense either. This is the biggest barn ive worked for and I guess im just not used to this kindve thing?


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Is it owning a horse? Yes. They paid the money for it. And they pay the upkeep bills. Just because they don't scoop poop and spend hours in the barn doesn't make them any less of an owner. They pay for those services for their horses to be fed, groomed, tacked up etc. 

They have their own priorities and them physically caring for the horse isn't one of them. They want to play...not do the work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

You're judging them based on your own experiences and standards. Stop there. They are all owners, they all pay for their horses welfare, they've chosen the best barn they can afford for it. They choose to compete, and to have other tasks done for them.

Maybe some are too busy.
Maybe some don't like shovelling muck.
Maybe they just choose a different style of horse ownership to yours. But it's not wrong.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Yes it is considered owning. And it is quite normal for upper level barns to be this way, especially in the h/j world.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

I've learned not to judge people based on what they can or can't spend or choose to spend in the care of their horse. Of course, that is assuming that the horse is cared for and the owner doesn't take advantage of people to get this care for their horses. Some "backyard owners" who keep horses on their own property and do everything themselves look down upon those that don't fully care for their own horses. Some fancy show people who show up to a pre tacked up horse look down upon the backyard riders who do everything on their own. 

Personally, I want to be as involved in my horse's care as possible. Because of my position in life I can't have him on my property or be able to care for him every day. I board him and have others muck out my stall, feed, turn out my horse, etc. Does that make me less of an owner? I pay his bills, treat any wounds that need to be treated, worry about his health and well being, put a great amount of thought into his training, tack up and cool him off myself. Where do you draw the line? Is anyone that boards their horse less of an owner? Full care board? Full care plus training? The whole shebang with the pre tacked up horse? 

I love tacking up my own horse, but there are some days when it seriously cuts into my riding time because of other obligations. On these days I'd love to be able to show up to a tacked up horse as much as I enjoy doing it myself. I used to be completely in the same mindset as you until I was around a wider variety of people and sat back and thought about it. My boyfriend's mom used to be really involved in horses, including owning her own barn for a period of time. She sold the property and got out of horses when my boyfriend was a child. She's the type that has lived every aspect of caring for horses, and loved it while she was doing it. I asked her why she didn't buy a nice horse now that she's older and has the money, and she says that she would if we had such a facility in the area. She doesn't have time to keep a horse, but has an intense love for the creatures. Some folks want a different experience than others, and the horse gets cared for. They pay the bills and do as they please.


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## TurkishVan (Feb 11, 2013)

Personally, I wouldn't trust anyone else to tack up and prepare my horse. But I'm paranoid and one of the po' folk. :lol:

And $1200/month for full board?! Yowza! I'm just thinking of the nice barn and arena I could build after a few years of saving that kind of money!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

yes it is ownership and wow.. wish i could have afforded that, and someone to build the corral covers for me ! i would not be such a beat up wreck .


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Yes it's ownership and I'm moving to TN tomorrow!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If it wasn't for those people being willing to pay for full board, in every sense of the word, you wouldn't have a job. Some don't wish to scoop poop but many just don't have time.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Yes its ownership and as long as the horses are well cared for and not in danger (which it sounds like they are getting top-care) then who cares? The horse sure doesn't.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Everyone is different, but if you bought the horse and are paying for it's upkeep, you are an owner. 

To you it may seem like they're missing out. But if someone can afford to pay a HUGE board bill and is satisfied with only seeing/riding their horse for about 20-30 minutes at a time, that's their life and their prerogative. As someone else said, it's possible they choose to board at your barn because it specifically offers that type of service. 

There are people on the opposite end of the spectrum as well. They pay for full board and care because their lives are so busy, there's no way they could come out and spend hours upon hours at the barn, though they may want to. But they still love horses and riding. It's worth it to them to know that even if they can't be there, their horses are getting top-notch care.


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## laurapratt01 (Oct 3, 2012)

Yep, they're owners but they sure are missing out. Not only are the other aspects of horse ownership enjoyable, they teach you the most about horses. Knowing how to handle a horse on the ground (through turn out, grooming and feeding ect.) makes you a better horse person. Even cleaning stalls teaches you about horse health (are they drinking enough water?, is their manure normal? Did they pee? Why didn't they finish their hay/grain?) Just being able to hop on your well trained horse doesn't make you a good horseman... It may show that your trainer (and horse's trainer) is a good horseman though.
I can't help but root for the "backyard team" at every show that I go to. Heck! I am the backyard team. I'm always more impressed by the folks who have brought a horse that they've trained (even if it's with the help of a trainer), and that they've groomed and braided than those who hop on a horse that's been warmed up by their trainer, and prance into the show ring after a groom gives their boots a good polish and wipes down their horse. I know a lot of people who just ride at barns like the one you work at and it's kind of disturbing how little actual horse sense they have even after years of riding, however, they do tend to win at shows. I guess they're happy with that even though the pride of winning on a backyard horse that you care for yourself and work with everyday is soooo much more satisfying!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Best sort of owners in my opinion!

I have had many horses at livery for owners who wanted to Fox Hunt them. For various reasons, mostly the work factor, I never saw them from one hunt meet to the next. 
I would have their horses ready, plaited, tack cleaned and on and they would arrive. I would drive them to the meet amd arrange to pick them up later. When they were ready to come home they called me and I drove to pick them up. 

Generally they would usually untacked the horse and leave after a conversation on how the horse went and when they would next be down. 

This meant the horses were mine to do with as I pleased, I could get them really fit, if the owners weren't coming down for a couple of weeks I could hunt them. 

These owners usually lived well out of the area, worked long city hours so never had the time to do anything with the horses. Most wouldn't have had a clue either!

They would leave their hunt boots and jackets in the tackroom and I would also have those ready for them. They paid me cash for this service. I never set a price as I found they were more generous than me asking a set fee! 

Always I got a very good Christmas present from them plus a generous cash gift. 

Most owners who want to do their own horses arrive at different times. Often don't muck out to my standard or muck out after the place has been swept and never think to clean their mess. 

I get calls "Can you turn the horse out as I won't be down" mid morning had I known earlier it would have been easier. They also cause barn dramas. 

As I said the owners who just come to ride are the best!


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

As the others have said, yes it is ownership.

I personally am a hands on type of person and want things done to my standards, which may be higher or lower than others, but they are my own standards.
I do think owners miss out a bit in bonding with their horses by not at least grooming them, but it's their choice. They may not have the time or ability to do it. 
I'm a live and let live kind of person, unless the animal is being neglected/ abused, then I'm not so laid back and nice about things. 
Sounds to me like the horses get very good care from you and the other staff though. 

I rode at one of the best H/J barns in my county. The owner/trainer/instructor was old school, and could give George Morris himself a run for his money in the way she taught, but she was good.
She required owners to care for their horses unless they had a valid reason not to, and then she charged extra for the 'special care'. To cover the extra care some of the horses got, she would give the riders with no horses (myself included) a chance to earn some money and possibly earn some free lessons. And if the owner okayed it, they got to ride/ exercise the horse during the lesson for the owner. But you had to groom and tack/un-tack the horse, no matter what. Owner or not.
I sure do miss my old trainer.


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## Customcanines (Jun 17, 2012)

I have been priveleged to enjoy all 3 types of ownership. My first horse started at a boarding stable where he was fed and his stall cleaned, and the farrier and vet came out at regular intervals, but I groomed, saddled and supplied supplements. Thete wete a lot of kids there, and we all hung around even when we weren't actually riding. When we started doing well in the shows, I moved my horse to a high class hunter jumper facility similar to what you are describing. I enjoyed that, also, because I got to jump high and I learned a lot. Now I have my trail horse at my daughter's. She feeds and turns out, I clean the stall and groom. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure which one I liked the best - they all have their good and bad points. Right now I love having my mare at my daughter's, but I wasn't the one that had to haul water all winter in the sub zero cold. All I can say is each one was right for the horse I had at the time, and the time of life I was at. Personally, I do like to groom and "play" with my horse now, but when I was younger I wanted to spend more time riding and grooming seemed like a waste of time. Lol. If I wasn't jumping, I wan't happy. Now half the time all I do is groom, and that's ok.


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## 2BigReds (Oct 7, 2011)

Mulefeather said:


> There are people on the opposite end of the spectrum as well. They pay for full board and care because their lives are so busy, there's no way they could come out and spend hours upon hours at the barn, though they may want to. But they still love horses and riding. It's worth it to them to know that even if they can't be there, their horses are getting top-notch care.


This is me. Well, sorta. I always have my horse in a full care vicinity at least in the way of feed, turnout and mucking (unless he's in a pasture, which is preferable anyway) simply because I can't afford the time to go feed twice a day if I'm going to be able to afford the cost of ownership period. Any area that I've lived in tends not to charge much more for full care as opposed to self care and that's if they even offer the latter.

That, and my arthritis partially dictates how much physical activity I do and when. For the most part, I'm pretty much able to work through it if it's even present but on certain days I can barely dress myself let alone lift a hoof or a pitchfork. I have always been responsible for my own tacking and grooming however, and I like it much better that way but understand if some people don't so much. It's a lot of work!


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## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

The best riding I've ever done was on a horse somebody else owned like this. I could not afford the animal or the training they had and they paid me to exercise them. Do not complain, you are working in a gold mine. If you have a good seat and a light hand you can get paid for exercising some amazing horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honeyhorses (Mar 26, 2014)

legally yes they do own their horse... but to the horse no way, to the horse these "owners" are just random strangers that come and ride them every now and then.
and your right, they do miss so many of the best parts of caring and building a bond with their horse and that's their loss.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

Is it even horse ownership if someone keeps a pet in the field behind their house and never does anything with the horse?

I can only speak for myself - I have boarded at several different places, and spent anywhere from twice a day (doing chores) to twice a month at the barn, depending on what other thing were going on in my life at the time. I can honestly say that I benefit most from horse ownership when I am working towards a goal with my horse. I like taking lessons, I like seeing us get better at something. I've moved my horse further away from home (currently ~1hr drive one way) for good care and instruction. I still groom, tack, and take care of my own horse, and some days I drive out just to give my horse a bath or take him for a walk, but e.g. that casual drop-in visit after work just to say hi just doesn't really happen anymore, and I miss it. At the same time, I missed dressage training when I was just pasture boarding and trail riding...
I don't mind doing chores, even mucking out can be very meditative, but if I can pick between mucking out and taking a lesson - lesson it is . I am quite happy to know that I don't HAVE to go do chores, that my horse is well taken care of without me. That leaves me more time for work, my kid, my husband, my dogs, and the other things in life that are important to me, and the time I spend with my horse is actually enjoyable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

honeyhorses said:


> legally yes they do own their horse... but to the horse no way, to the horse these "owners" are just random strangers that come and ride them every now and then.
> and your right, they do miss so many of the best parts of caring and building a bond with their horse and that's their loss.


I think to a horse, the whole concept of ownership is very foreign, so I don't think the horse perceives anyone as their "owner".

For all we know, the people that just come there to ride did their lifetime dose of mucking out when they were teenagers .

Most high performance horses in racing and sport aren't ridden by their owners at all, but by a professional rider (or jockey), and the owners certainly don't do barn chores. Yet somehow these owners too get satisfaction out of seeing their horse do well, or they wouldn't be doing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

I would absolutely love to be in those owners situation. I don't enjoy mucking out stalls or fixing fences or sweeping my barn or lugging my saddle out of the tack room and then heaving it onto my horse's back (I'm 5'4 with chicken arms ). I would love it if I could just go to the barn and have my horse tacked up and ready to go. 

Of course, that's not how it is. We keep our horses on our property and therefore we don't have an A class facility (converted slaughterhouse), don't have an indoor arena, I muck my own stalls in the heat with the flies, fix my own fences, clean the barn myself, and ready my own horse. 

I daydream about what it'd be like to just walk out there and have everything perfect and all ready to go.

I enjoy spending quality time with my horse, but I don't enjoy the time leading up to said quality time if you know what I mean. :wink:


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## kimberlyrae1993 (Mar 20, 2013)

Its there horses and they pay there horses bills... do they have a relationship with there horses like people who take care of them in there own like us NO!! I personally don't feel its right at all.. but they pay the bills and the horse is taken care of right..

If you have a kid and only hang out with him/her when you "want" but pay all bills and nanny's for them your taking care of them yes but is it right?!?! NO

MY HORSE AMY IS MY CHILD AND I TREAT HER LIKE ONE!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

Different strokes for different folks. 

I do self care, so I have 100% hands on when it comes to my two horses! but before I got my mare! I was down at the full care section of the ranch! and it sometimes felt really nice to know my horse was being fed and cleaned without me having to go out every day. 

Don't get me wrong, I love taking care of my two, and feel its a rewarding experience to be in control. But sometimes (like this last week when I had a cold and it was hot) it sure would be nice to take a break.


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## Kristyjog (Nov 11, 2013)

I have a few family members that show paint horses nationally. Their show horses are with a trainer at a similar barn you described. They fly once a week to ride their horses. But at home they are a working ranch and do every aspect of horse care. So you never know someone situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

This is very common for upper end owners, who have the money to pay to have these things taken care of. And many barns in the old days, grooms did everything and handed over a tacked up horse, legged up the rider, and then took horse when ride was over, and put it away. Rider rode. Period.

It is perfectly acceptable to do this. And they love their horses no less than you do yours.

You don't have to have a bond with a horse to be able to ride it successfully. You don't have to have a bond to work with a horse. In fact, you don't even have to have seen the horse before in your life to be able to work with it, ride it, or handle it.

Bond is overused and means nothing. Horses are herd animals, and will just as willingly follow a new horse that is showing leadership, as it will the old leader, once they sort things out.

We had horses in training whose owners lived in FL, and we were in MO. They flew in every couple of months, but usually we just saw owners in the month before a show, and then at the show. They knew what they were doing, and our trainer knew what he was doing. Worked well.

Will also throw this in for you to consider.

You do not know who on here might be a boarder at that barn, or might have a friend who is, and also who might know someone there personally.

If you express this opinion elsewhere, to the wrong person, and it gets back to customers, barn owners or the trainer? You will be out of a job. One thing you never ever do is critique your barn, make comments about the owners, or their horses.

The horse world is a small one, and very easy to get crossways.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

kimberlyrae1993 said:


> Its there horses and they pay there horses bills... do they have a relationship with there horses like people who take care of them in there own like us NO!! I personally don't feel its right at all.. but they pay the bills and the horse is taken care of right..
> 
> If you have a kid and only hang out with him/her when you "want" but pay all bills and nanny's for them your taking care of them yes but is it right?!?! NO
> 
> ...



And you know this how? For you to take the view that they don't know their horses, nor have a relationship with them, is flawed at best.

The horses recognized their people when they came, and the owners were gifted riders who guided their horses to WC status. And had several at the same time in some cases, all ridden well, and all horses and owners had a good friendship with each other.

And for what it is worth, any good horseperson can walk in, deal with your horse and work with it without ever having laid eyes on it before. They are herd animals, and a special bond beyond all else, just isn't there except in extremely rare horses. Pride's Perfection grieved over his groom and wouldn't eat, until they sent groom to be with the old horse. But by and large, horse is sold and does just fine.

Rarely when a horse is sold, does it pine away and die over their old owner. They are not like that.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

kimberlyrae1993 said:


> Its there horses and they pay there horses bills... do they have a relationship with there horses like people who take care of them in there own like us NO!! I personally don't feel its right at all.. but they pay the bills and the horse is taken care of right..
> 
> If you have a kid and only hang out with him/her when you "want" but pay all bills and nanny's for them your taking care of them yes but is it right?!?! NO
> 
> ...



Sorry but you are wrong.

Horses kept with me and ridden once or twice a week by their owners Fox Hunting, certainly recognised their owners and would greet them when they arrived.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Regula said:


> I think to a horse, the whole concept of ownership is very foreign, so I don't think the horse perceives anyone as their "owner".
> 
> For all we know, the people that just come there to ride did their lifetime dose of mucking out when they were teenagers .
> 
> ...


With a lot of these owners I think you are correct with the second paragraph. My boyfriend's mom had horses when she was younger, and she used to do all of the grunt work. Everything from taking care of her own backyard horses to running a small boarding stable to showing successfully. She got out of horses when my boyfriend was a relatively young child, sold the horses and the property to be able to focus on her husband and son. 

Last year she was kind enough to give me all of her remaining horse items. I asked her why she didn't buy a nice horse now... She has property on which she can keep a horse and money to pay for board if that's what she chose. She said that the only way she would own a horse now is if it was at one of these barns you speak of. She lives in the city, drives out to her farm every day to manage 2000+ pastures hens and the associated property, likes to spend time with her family when she gets home, and successfully shows and occasionally breeds dogs. She said that she has a great love for horses and all aspects of their care. She's visited barns since getting out of horses and loves the smell of manure and hay. She just doesn't have the time of inclination to care for one, and won't buy it unless the tasks are cared for and she can show up to a tacked horse when she wants to ride.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

Well, I still tack up my horse and cool them out when I ride, but I don't do any of the work of owning a horse. I do stay at the stable and help with mucking and watering and turning out when I have a few extra hours, just because I do want to know how to take care of a horse and it's nice to just do something physical and unwind. 

I've asked myself if I would want to work at the stable in exchange for lesson time or cheaper board, but I'm looking at a situation where I can make 100+ an hour at work, vs. the minimum wage task of working at the stable. So I feel like, in my situation, it's better for me to work the extra time and make more money so I can pamper my horse more. There's no shortage of people who can't make the money and need discounts more than I do. 

When my horse sees me, he knows he gets to either get treats, get out of his stall or the pasture and get some one on one time, get to graze on that lush tempting grass that's on the other side of the fence, or maybe have to work *bummer!*. He does recognize me! There's no doubt about that!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Sounds like the situation my husband has. I exercise his horse, do all the feeding, grooming, etc. When he decides he wants to ride, I get his horse ready for him. However, if he decides to go to lessons with me, our instructor makes him tack up his own horse, prolly why he doesn't go that often.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

waresbear said:


> Sounds like the situation my husband has. I exercise his horse, do all the feeding, grooming, etc. When he decides he wants to ride, I get his horse ready for him. However, if he decides to go to lessons with me, our instructor makes him tack up his own horse, prolly why he doesn't go that often.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hahaha, good point. Is it even horse ownership if you make your wife do all the chores? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopie22 (Jan 28, 2013)

I would have to agree that it is still ownership. I would love to work in a barn like that and have the chacne to work with the horses. i would not mind tacking up, grooming, feeding etc. As long as they pay their dues and the animal is not being neglected I am fine with that. I would like to eventually open up a barn obvioulsy not anywhere near that level but just a laid back boarding stable. And I would offer extra services for a little extra cost.


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

I get why you are annoyed by seeing this. But remember that some of these people might have other things going on in their lifes that you don't know about. Sure some of them are lazy, or just don't have the interesst. But some might not be able to do those things because of health issues. 
I remember when I was a kid I reacted to how our riding teacher didn't ever clean or tack up her own horse... Little did I know she had a neck injury from a car accident. She was just happy to be able to ride at all


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I live at both ends of the spectrum.

At my home place I do all the chores for my own and for those that belong to others. Exercising included. 

When I'm working out of town, I haul one or two with me and they are kept at a full board barn while I'm there. I still tack my own when out of town because what I use depends on what each horse will be doing that day.

The BO at the full care facility laughed at me once when I couldn't find a horse I brought because I couldn't recognize it, pick it out, in the herd. A bay horse that I didn't know very well in a sea of bay horses! I wailed "I don't know which one is mine!" She offered to pull them for me if I call on the way out. I've taken her up on it twice when I worked really late.

When I'm working with horses with me, I love knowing she and her crew have their eyes on them and they are cared for. No way could I do it with my schedule.


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## luvmydrafts (Dec 26, 2013)

Sure, it is ownership and I dont see anything wrong with it as long as the horses are taken care of good...happy and healthy etc. if they are fine then everything else can be up in the air and done however owners want IMO...lets face it cleaning up poop piles is no fun, lol...if the owners have that kind of money to blow on hiring staff to do it for them then they are free to.


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## Gossip (Sep 26, 2011)

Yeah, some higher level farms are like that. Like an Olympic farm my trainer used to work at. But think about. All the years of training and working with horses, doing the barn chores, just to get to the point they are at now. Competing succesfully in higher level competitions. I think they've earned a break from barn chores. Although I do think that even higher level competitors should just spend quality time with their horses. Not all higher level barns are just about riding and nothing else. I think they truly care about their horses and love spending time with them even when not in the saddle. Their lives are very busy though.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I saw the same kind of thing in the AQHA pleasure world. It's very common there too. At first I was annoyed at it like the OP was, then I realized the best client is the client who doesn't get in the way :lol:

I prefer to be left alone to handle the horses in the best way I see fit. That is what they pay me for after all. 

The horse isn't neglected, abused, or anything of the sort. It gets worked 1 to 2 times a day by either the trainer or the owner, gets bathed, feed, stall mucked, etc. Most horses in that kind of situation actually look forward to their owners because they spoil them! I can't tell you how many times I've heard trainers complain because the client is spoiling the horse with one thing or another.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

Some days I would love this option (mostly in horrid weather). 
I feel that it is definitely a better option then having them in a paddock drive past and chuck feed to them once a day. The horses are well cared for happy healthy and fit. Far worse are the people who ride once a week and expect their horses to keep competitive fitness, 

Yes I'm off to ride in 130km winds because I didn't ride yesterd and my hunter needs to stay fit. Right now I would pay anyone to ride her or at least tack her up!


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## horseTraining (Jun 22, 2014)

TNcowgirl35 said:


> Hey yall,
> 
> Well I recently got a job at a huge horse farm. its a million dollar horse barn that only caters to hunter-jumpers that are competitive. everyone I have met so far is really nice there. but the boarders there do nothing with their horses other than ride.. the people that work there (me included) clean the stalls, feed, water, turn out, groom, wash and tack up the horses. not to mention the board also includes 3 days of professional riding and lunging. I only see the owners sometimes and they only ride their horses for 20 mins tops or just lunge them. then afterwards they don't stick around long, usually just long enough to hand the horses back to us still fully tacked and leave. Idk, it just seems like theyre not doing anything with their horses and are missing some of the best parts about owning one. I like tacking up and caring for my horses just as much as riding them. is this common with most competitive barns? Every other barn I have worked with the boarders have always had to tack up and groom their own horses and they spent a lot of time at the barn. To me, just getting on a horse and riding doesn't really build a bond with the horse, and having other people work with the horse 5 times as much as you do doesn't make sense either. This is the biggest barn ive worked for and I guess im just not used to this kindve thing?


I understand your frustration. It is hard to watch an owner treat their living, breathing, consciously aware animal, that you have grown to care for, like a piece of sports equipment.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

horseTraining said:


> I understand your frustration. It is hard to watch an owner treat their living, breathing, consciously aware animal, that you have grown to care for, like a piece of sports equipment.


I think this is an unfair statement!

Majority of people who ride at top competition level do not have the time to do barn chores or groom their horses. They are to busy riding and competing. 

I personally know some top riders both show jumping and eventing, ask them what their horses are fed and they wouldn't have a clue. Their stock answer would be "Ask the head lad." 
They will, when at home not competing, do nothing but ride not only their top horses but also the youngsters.

Behind every top rider there is an excellent back up team who do the work from mucking out the stables to bringing on the youngsters and keeping the top horses fit. These people will offer advice on how a horse is going, when something is 'off' with it and have it tacked up ready for their employer to get on when finished with another.

This does not mean that they do not care about their animals because they do, each and everyone of them. It is a matter of having the time and energy not only for the horses but for family too.


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## skiafoxmorgan (Mar 5, 2014)

I had always done the work when I owned horses before. I liked it. I'm leasing now, and the barn my girl is kept at is a full-board barn. I don't feed or clean stalls--well, if I get a bug up my butt, I can clean her stall if I want to, but it will be done no matter what. I don't know how much she eats or what she eats. I do my own saddling and grooming, but I can say now, having experienced a full-board situation, that there is something truly lovely about showing up to ride and just riding, not doing chores. I drive a half-hour each way, which isn't terrible, but it's an hour a day of just driving. If I want to ride for two hours, the minimum time away from home, housework, errands, work, etc. is 3 hours and 45 minutes (grooming, tacking, cooling and hosing off). That's a lot of time in. I am also exercising my owner's other horse now, and that's at least another hour and a half if I am riding both in a day. I'd KILL to have someone standing there with a groomed and saddled horse waiting for me.


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## horseTraining (Jun 22, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I think this is an unfair statement!
> 
> Majority of people who ride at top competition level do not have the time to do barn chores or groom their horses. They are to busy riding and competing.
> 
> ...


I do not speak from ignorance, I speak from experience. I have been on both sides. I have spent my days doing nothing but riding and competing on multiple horses. I have also been apart of the "back up team" in order to have the opportunity to train under some of the highest level riders internationally.

Unfortunately, many horses in the competition world are treated like sports equipment. It doesn't mean the owner/rider doesn't care about their animals, I am sure they do. Mostly all owners/riders are ill informed about the effects the competition lifestyle has on their animals and the horses suffer in the long run. 

Another sad truth is many "training" methods competition barns practice and many other styles of riding, competitive and non-competitive. We are taught to force things upon the animals and that resistance is only "lack of respect". Treating the horses as such has become rather a norm in the world of equestrian. 

Of course there is always exception to the rule, sadly far to few cases.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

horseTraining said:


> I do not speak from ignorance, I speak from experience. I have been on both sides. I have spent my days doing nothing but riding and competing on multiple horses. I have also been apart of the "back up team" in order to have the opportunity to train under some of the highest level riders internationally.
> 
> Unfortunately, many horses in the competition world are treated like sports equipment. It doesn't mean the owner/rider doesn't care about their animals, I am sure they do. Mostly all owners/riders are ill informed about the effects the competition lifestyle has on their animals and the horses suffer in the long run.
> 
> ...


Maybe in your part of the world but in the UK many top horses, both show jumpers and event horses are competing in their late teens at top level.

If information is not passed on to the rider by those in the back up team then how can they do the appropriate thing? 

One top event rider was going to ride a certain horse in the London Olympics. A few weeks before the horse had the slightest puffiness in a foreleg this was soon dissipated with treatment but the scan showed some damage. 
The owners (a syndicate) were told and given the choice of risking the horse or turning him away. They chose the latter. The rider gave his point of view which was to not risk, they listened and agreed.

This is more the norm in the UK,


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Fox that is also common among big show barns in all varieties of disciplines in the states.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

.Delete. said:


> Fox that is also common among big show barns in all varieties of disciplines in the states.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I would hope so! 

I do not know where Horse Trainer worked or how top the barn she was at was/is but if any place gets results but also gets through a lot of horses the they soon loose popularity.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> I would hope so!
> 
> I do not know where Horse Trainer worked or how top the barn she was at was/is but if any place gets results but also gets through a lot of horses the they soon loose popularity.


Yeah that wasn't an accurate description of high end training facilities. At least from what I've seen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseTraining (Jun 22, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Maybe in your part of the world but in the UK many top horses, both show jumpers and event horses are competing in their late teens at top level.
> 
> If information is not passed on to the rider by those in the back up team then how can they do the appropriate thing?
> 
> ...



When I trained in Europe, I spent mostly all of my time working and riding in the UK.

The example you used sounds to me like common sense!! I hope that ALL riders and "back up team" would be smart enough to know that if the horse's body is indicating some sort of problem that competing wouldn't be an option.

What I said was "Mostly all owners/riders are ill informed about the effects the competition lifestyle has on their animals and the horses suffer in the long run." This did not refer to needing the back up team to report anything to anyone, however, it has been proven in studies that detecting pain can easily go unnoticed since a horse can experience physiological pain or trauma without showing evident signs.


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## Ale (May 8, 2013)

I would consider the fact that they paid for their horses and pay for the services. But I can see where you are coming from with your post, OP. I think that grooming, tacking, cleaning and spending quality time with your horse is very important for bonding and gaining trust between one another. But sometimes people might not have the time or the drive to do these things, like you and I would. I wouldn't put them down for it, because to each his or her own. But I understand fully what you mean. I couldn't just get on a fully tacked horse, ride around and hand my horse off to someone else. Grooming and tacking are fun to me, plus it allows you to see possible changes in your horse that someone else might not. Like I said before, to each his or her own for what they consider owning a horse :3


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

horseTraining said:


> When I trained in Europe, I spent mostly all of my time working and riding in the UK.
> 
> The example you used sounds to me like common sense!! I hope that ALL riders and "back up team" would be smart enough to know that if the horse's body is indicating some sort of problem that competing wouldn't be an option.
> 
> What I said was "Mostly all owners/riders are ill informed about the effects the competition lifestyle has on their animals and the horses suffer in the long run." This did not refer to needing the back up team to report anything to anyone, however, it has been proven in studies that detecting pain can easily go unnoticed since a horse can experience physiological pain or trauma without showing evident signs.


That's a very blanketed statement. I wouldn't say most all owners are clueless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

horseTraining said:


> What I said was "Mostly all owners/riders are ill informed about the effects the competition lifestyle has on their animals and the horses suffer in the long run." This did not refer to needing the back up team to report anything to anyone, however, it has been proven in studies that detecting pain can easily go unnoticed since a horse can experience physiological pain or trauma without showing evident signs.


Sorry I have to disagree with your statement. 

I agree that horses can be stoic in hiding many things including pain. The horse that is having mental stress will show it in many ways. Often going off its food, being tense and restless, refusing to load are some of the most common, the. Not performing to top ability. 

_there are always signs_ and this is where good knowledgeable team members will come to the fore and _do _have things to report.


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## horseTraining (Jun 22, 2014)

.Delete. said:


> That's a very blanketed statement. I wouldn't say most all owners are clueless.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey delete, can you show me where i've used the word clueless?


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

It was a general statement such as

"Mostly all owners/riders are ill informed about the effects the competition lifestyle has on their animals and the horses suffer in the long run."

is.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Don't knock it - I made a good living for many years taking money off people like this that for whatever reason didn't do the work themselves - and you're making a living out of now!!! I had one horse for 12 years who's owner only saw him once or twice a week in the hunting season - the rest of the time he was mine to do as I liked with.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

jaydee said:


> Don't knock it - I made a good living for many years taking money off people like this that for whatever reason didn't do the work themselves - and you're making a living out of now!!! I had one horse for 12 years who's owner only saw him once or twice a week in the hunting season - the rest of the time he was mine to do as I liked with.


An I bet that horse lived a happy 12 years with you Jaydee


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thank you - I like to think that he did. He was retired back to the people who bred him and sold him to her so he had a good life.


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## horseTraining (Jun 22, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Sorry I have to disagree with your statement.
> 
> I agree that horses can be stoic in hiding many things including pain. The horse that is having mental stress will show it in many ways. Often going off its food, being tense and restless, refusing to load are some of the most common, the. Not performing to top ability.
> 
> _there are always signs_ and this is where good knowledgeable team members will come to the fore and _do _have things to report.


I completely agree with your statement, there _is_ always signs. Hence why I said "it has been proven in studies that detecting pain can easily go unnoticed since a horse can experience physiological pain or trauma without showing _evident_ signs."

A lot of signs in the equestrian world are misinterpreted and many horses will check out "sound" by the vet, however, further reviewed by xrays, ultrasounds and radiology tests can prove otherwise. In fact all ridden horses will show signs of muscle and tissue damage in the back, while a large percentage also suffer from back disorders. Obviously more so in competition horses than your average pleasure horse.

For example, a horse could begin bolting/rearing with a rider. The first thing that most people do is bring out a vet. If the animal appears not to be showing any "evident" signs, no further tests are pursued and the horse is deemed to be sound. The rider may get a saddle fitter out next and/or a professional trainer, in which case the horse will probably be diagnosed as being "naughty" and not "respecting" the rider. This is a very generic example. Most riders wouldn't consider the fact the horse may be bolting/rearing to relieve the pressure of the weight from the rider and saddle. The weight have proven in studies not to inhibit the range in motion in the horse's movement, but it has proven to cause pain and damage to the back. On average, it only takes 15 mins under saddle by an average weight before the horse begins to experience pain.


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## horseTraining (Jun 22, 2014)

.Delete. said:


> It was a general statement such as
> 
> "Mostly all owners/riders are ill informed about the effects the competition lifestyle has on their animals and the horses suffer in the long run."
> 
> is.


I am sorry you perceived my comment in that way. Ill informed and clueless are two different things


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The vets that these top yards use come out with top of the range digital X ray machines and ultra sound equipment - they don't make guesses without that sort of thing when they're dealing with horses that are worth enough to owners to pay out on full board/livery every month - even the vet I use has that sort of equipment and if they can't figure it out they send them off to one of the big equine hospitals.
When you pay a lot of money for a saddle to be professionally fitted you are less likely to blame that for your horses bad behavior.


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## horseTraining (Jun 22, 2014)

jaydee said:


> The vets that these top yards use come out with top of the range digital X ray machines and ultra sound equipment - they don't make guesses without that sort of thing when they're dealing with horses that are worth enough to owners to pay out on full board/livery every month - even the vet I use has that sort of equipment and if they can't figure it out they send them off to one of the big equine hospitals.
> When you pay a lot of money for a saddle to be professionally fitted you are less likely to blame that for your horses bad behavior.


I think it is very common for veterinarians to have that equipment these days.

I have been lucky enough in the past to be an assistant to a vet, who mainly worked with competition horses. If we were to check out horse with a bolting/rearing problem, we did generic tests, like making sure the horse was trotting out sound, performing flexion tests, checking teeth, etc. If the horse showed *no signs* of lameness or pain, then we told the owners the horse was sound. Of course if the owners requested more tests, like x rays, than we gladly obliged. If a horse did show signs of lameness/health problems, it was brought to the equine hospital and would do everything imaginable to understand the cause. Like you said, when the animals are worth that much money, there is no room for making guesses.

And of course if you've paid for a saddle fitter would not expect your saddle would be the cause of behaviour. But most riders wouldn't consider that while riding the animal, the weight of the saddle and themselves might be the cause of the horse's behaviour.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Money and luxury doesn't always mean the best, a very expensive saddle and fitter can still be wrong for the horse (especially if the horse changes shape two weeks later), so the best for a horse is someone who knows them well, who educates themselves about horses and who recognises those tiny expressions of something being wrong, so personally I feel the best for a horse is an owner who is more hands on and spends a lot of time with their horse (though not necessarily mucking out:lol: even though my friend spotted earlier colic by counting poos). So yes it is ownership, but not something I would ever aspire to being able to afford.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Years ago I fell at work and did a number on my knee. The orthopedic dr. I went to was local guy whose wife was really into horses. Dr. didn't have much to do with them beyond a pat here and there and paying the bills. She had her horses at a full service boarding place much like you describe. The Dr was constantly scolding me about going down to the barn and beating up my knee. 

My horses are at home. If I don't go out to the barn and do it it don't get done. Poor man just couldn't get his head wrapped around the concept of doing your own feeding and cleaning and hoof trimming.

In spite of all that they were really nice people. I used to enjoy chit chat with his wife about horses. She was always amused by my hairy winter fuzzies. Her horses went to Florida for the winter. Mine got more hay thrown at them. If I could I'd probably pay somebody else to shovel the poo and do an occasional grooming but I enjoy most of it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When the people who keep their horses at home can afford to do it properly (that doesn't have to mean spending massive amounts of money) and have the knowledge and access to advice and will seek advice then the horses will usually do better but sadly there are far too many horse owners now that are clueless and can't be bothered to learn or ask for help so even though the horses on big yards maybe don't always get that personal touch they are less likely to be neglected
We are talking horses on full board at a pretty high cost here - not some run down establishment held together with duct tape


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

In the legal sense, yes, it's ownership. 

Horsemanship? Depends. I understand that horse people with huge businesses have to have other people help them. Otherwise, there wouldn't be enough time in the day! 

At the end of the day, I believe a true horseman or woman is a person who has experienced as many aspects of horses as possible, from care to riding to everything else. The knowledge of the other aspects of horsemanship will help tremendously in the riding part of it. 

Also, a true horse person can ride a variety of horses, not just push button ones.

When you backyard it, it is a little difficult to respect the people that do not sometimes, but I think us backyarders are the lucky ones just because we are immersed in the horse world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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