# How much until A Horse is considered "overworked"



## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Take that up with your trainer. Your concerns are completely valid. If she dismisses your concerns, I'd be seriously considering looking for a different trainer.

I don't have much patience for that kind of disrespect.

Also, if you were supposed to be in a lesson, why wasn't your trainer there?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

That is completely unacceptable. For you, and for the horse. Either ask to ride on a different day when Emily isn't being ridden right before you arrive, or change to a different barn.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

So its kind of complicated. But the trainer there doesn't know anything about jumping. She is more of the "All I can do is teach you the basics" kind of thing. So now that I get training from a different barn about jumping and she can't help me she always says "I'll just let you do your own thing and stay out of the way" She is also in college and had a big exam coming up so I was just going to "do my own thing" while she studied in the house.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> So its kind of complicated. But the trainer there doesn't know anything about jumping. She is more of the "All I can do is teach you the basics" kind of thing. So now that I get training from a different barn about jumping and she can't help me she always says "I'll just let you do your own thing and stay out of the way" She is also in college and had a big exam coming up so I was just going to "do my own thing" while she studied in the house.


Then based upon this threads content and the above statement..........
You need to move on to a barn where jumping is done, proper instruction is given and dangerous practices of over-working a horse till heaving and panting are not permitted let alone where barn workers intentionally create a distraction that the horse you are now riding acts out and near injures you.

You also give contradictions in what the horse is being made to do...
Your "instructor" doesn't do jumping, yet you go their to jump. :|
Emily _{the horse?}_ is lathered and hard breathing, panting you said, and the current rider dismounts and tosses the reins to you of said horse...
She is tacked up in a dressage saddle that does not fit you correctly not allowing you to ride at a proper leg length when you jump??
You're jumping in a lesson, with a trainer who doesn't know jumping, and in a dressage saddle?? :icon_rolleyes:
_I'm sorry but you need to get out before you get hurt._
You _*don't*_ own the horse and will emotionally get attached to another horse at another barn when presented the opportunity.
You are though treading on dangerous ground of getting physically hurt with barn practices such as they are...
Your parents are aware and see this going on and do nothing about it on your behalf?
If you were my kid, you would_ not_ be riding in such a place, period.
I value my child's safety more in a dangerous sport and protect it as needed.

There are no excuses of college student, exams and such as you present...
Those are childish excuses made and admitted to.
This sounds more like someone pocketing some $$ for allowing you to ride at will with no thought to instruct you, keep you safe or truly knows how to control a riding situation as you describe or the care of a horse so it not be "wasted" by a non-caring rider, who-ever it might be.

Please, find a new barn where safe practices for you and for the horses are followed...
Injuries don't always heal...let you not be a victim.

_I *don't* mean to come off and down at you, but it is you who is being taken unfair advantage of and it is going to be you who will get hurt riding a horse who is "wasted & physically spent"._
Please, please leave here and find a new barn where safe practices for you and for the horses are followed...
The excuses you make, remember them when you have a terrible fall or injury and have to heal, if you heal and not carry permanent disabilities and the chance of never riding ever again.
It happens all to often...
Consider if your next ride is worth it...or do you look for a different barn...
I bet those other barns are around. 
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

New trainer.


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## ThoroughbredBug (Jan 18, 2017)

Personally I would find a new instructor at a different barn. Not only is riding (let alone jumping) a tired and sweaty horse unfair and unheathy for them (for numerous reasons), but it's dangerous for you. The horse may either have a meltdown about being overworked and throw a hissy fit, dumping you or otherwise hurting you, or the horse could trip and fall, knock a jump and fall, etc. hurting you both. You should also not be jumping without an instructor unless a) the horse has been properly trained to a level above what you want to be doing (_never learn new things for you and the horse at the same time_) b) you are in correct tack for jumping c) the horse has the energy and muscle to be jumping and most importantly d) you have been correctly trained to a level above what you plan on doing by an instructor well-versed in jumping, which goes back to the whole 'dont learn alone' and 'dont teach the horse as you learn' things.

On the other hand, even if you both come out of rides like this unharmed, it's unprofessional horse management and unprofessional barn conduct for the instructor to handle things this way. Or rather... not handle it by doing nothing. If you cannot ride on another day, when Emily has not been worked, and in a saddle that fits you and the horse both by measurement and fits the style of riding you will be doing, I would leave that barn and go somewhere else. I also wouldn't be riding a jumper without an instructor and relying on the horse to 'teach' you anything, as that will end poorly. Sure an experienced lesson horse may be able to get you both over fences safely but lesson horses/lease horses have a tendency to know they should be patient and not act out with things that you shouldn't be doing anyways. Leg swinging, perching over fences, bumping the horse in the mouth, etc. All bad habits, but typically things a good safe lesson horse will ignore for a while while the instructor explains to you how to solve your issue.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

What they said. ↑↑↑


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

*I've thought about it*



horselovinguy said:


> Then based upon this threads content and the above statement..........
> You need to move on to a barn where jumping is done, proper instruction is given and dangerous practices of over-working a horse till heaving and panting are not permitted let alone where barn workers intentionally create a distraction that the horse you are now riding acts out and near injures you.
> 
> You also give contradictions in what the horse is being made to do...
> ...



I wish I could leave, and I wish I didn't already have an attachment to the horse. I have been riding Emily for 4 years now. 5 in the summer. My trainer is a family friend and my mom is a massage therapist, so I ride for free and she gets free massages. Thats why I don't get to choose who I ride with, when, or in what condition. Its not my place to demand things or tell her she is doing her job wrong, I'm scared I would come off as a brat or a know it all. Also we wouldn't be able to afford regular lessons if we had to pay full price and I have to take 4 lessons a month to show at my other barn, and I can't make it to the other barn 4 times because it is 1 hour away. Emily is my only option.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Poor Emily. For her sake, if you really cannot leave, you NEED to explain to your instructor that it's just not fair. It's not fair on Emily and it's not fair on you. Remember, this only happened because the other girl couldn't keep her mouth shut. You need to open yours to protect both you and Emily from possible injury. You also need to speak with your parents and be honest about your feelings - about how unhappy this makes you. 

It isn't your place to tell people who to do their jobs. But it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to care for one another and to protect ourselves and each other. You care for yourself don't you? You care for Emily? Does she enjoy being worked so hard? Who will speak up for her? Who will speak up for you? Why are you so afraid of speaking? What punishment will they give you for saying "this isn't fair or healthy"? 

You know what can help you though? Is to write everything down. Write down how long the other girl rode, write the condition of the horse on your arrival and at what time. Write how long you rode and in what tack. And if you rode with an adult watching or not. Then you can go to your parents and ask if they can help you find a way to make a good deal that gives everyone a chance. 

This isn't a good situation. You should try to ask your parents to move - they might consider it once you tell them the truth. It takes me 2 hours to see my horse. But she's happy and not overworked. Travelling is annoying and can be more expensive.. but my horse is happier and my riding more fun. Think about that. Quality, not quantity. 

Good luck!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As you cannot change barns try riding different horses, riding the same horse all the time is not as good for you as riding as many different ones as you can.

One of the rules I had drummed into me and I, in turn drummed it into my pupils is that you never jump when alone.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

So massage in trade for instruction or in trade for ride time? I agree that riding different horses will make you a better rider, but I suppose the instructor wouldn't like it too much if your mom gave two hours of message to other people and by the time she got to your instructor she only had enough energy left to give her a mediocre message at best. Your mothers time spent on her in trade for your riding is worth something. Where I live, an hour message is at least fifty bucks and hour if not more.

You can say something without coming off sounding bratty. You can tell your mom that you would like to practice your jumping with Emily but you can't if she is dripping in sweat and still trying to catch her breath when you get her. 

What was the reason for not being able to switch saddles? I don't get that part. If you are left on your own for everything else then why the restriction on what saddle you use?

I'm editing to say that I re read your first post and you said that this is a lesson. You jumping a sweaty, hot, spent horse while the instructor is doing her school work in the house is not a lesson.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

If I was in this situation, I would read between the lines. The instructor is indirectly telling you that you are her last priority, way behind her paying customers. And she is not hiding her feelings. If it were me, I would interpret it as her telling me to go away and she is being rather blunt about it.

Make your decisions accordingly. I personally don’t stick around where I am not wanted, especially if my presence there could cause me harm. In this case the horse is being harmed as well.

Part of growing up is learning when enough is enough, even if it means you have to give up something or someone you love. It is a very important skill that will keep you alive and out of danger. 

(I would love to see this woman being put in her place by your mum. For example, giving her a sloppy massage on previously used sweaty and sticky sheets, because, you know - she just isn’t a priority. But that would be petty)


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> I wish I could leave, and I wish I didn't already have an attachment to the horse. I have been riding Emily for 4 years now. 5 in the summer. My trainer is a family friend and my mom is a massage therapist, so I ride for free and she gets free massages. Thats why I don't get to choose who I ride with, when, or in what condition. Its not my place to demand things or tell her she is doing her job wrong, I'm scared I would come off as a brat or a know it all. Also we wouldn't be able to afford regular lessons if we had to pay full price and I have to take 4 lessons a month to show at my other barn, and I can't make it to the other barn 4 times because it is 1 hour away. Emily is my only option.


Well then you'd best resign yourself to hand-walking Emily for an hour instead of riding her. Really, if your only choice is to ride a horse that has been jumping for two hours in a dressage saddle without an instructor watching you, then don't ride. Period. Give Emily a rest and use this hour to walk her, then hose her down. Heck maybe hand-graze her too. I'm dead serious.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I don't think your mother would be very happy that her hard work and skill as a massage therapist is being so undervalued.

I work freelance and have a specialized skillset. If I found out that someone was treating the services I offered in trade as being worth any less than equivalent cash payment, and disrespecting my child (if I had one), I'd be livid.

I think you should discuss this with your mother. I think she needs to have a talk with this "trainer."


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> I wish I could leave, and I wish I didn't already have an attachment to the horse.


Hi Lydia!

I feel for you; I'm quite attached to the animals I have, even the ones that don't technically belong to me. However, I _do_ have the final word as to decisions involving their welfare, on paper, in legal terms. (I insisted on this when their owners moved out of state and left them in my care.)

I see that you are a young person, so take some advice from an old Kodger. Avoid bonding with a horse (or any other entity) that isn't yours to bond with; you are setting yourself up for all kinds of emotional trauma. At this point I think you can begin to see what I mean.

This isn't an easy thing to hear, or to do, but it is _so_ important. My $.02.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Please bring this up with your mother. She and the instructor have an agreement to trade services and that is not what is occurring.

You are being taken advantage of, Emily is being overworked and that other person is not your friend. 

A friend would not ride a horse for two hours and hand her over to you too hot and tired to do anything. She should be cooling down the horse after her ride and not working the poor horse into the ground. 

Don't know if these "lessons" are every day, but first would see about changing your days to the ones that the other person doesn't ride. Doesn't matter if the "instructor" is not there because she isn't around when you need her anyway. 

You don't have to be mean or rude about it, but you do have to stand up for yourself and the horse.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Have empathy for Emily. Being a true horseman as nothing to do with riding, but everything to do with thinking of the welfare of the animal. If you truly have this attachment to Emily, you would not have ridden her, but looks after her well being.

Quality of any lessons beats quantity of lessons. Your ‘trainer’ sounds like a backyard yahoo who is taking advantage of you and your mother’s services. And should be told as much.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Honestly, this is horse abuse. Very sad. To these people at the barn this horse is just a machine.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

We are getting one side of a multisided story. We don't know the details of the trade, quality of service the mother offers as well as amount of time the mother spends in trade or whether the barn is anything more than some college kid trying to pay her horses way by offering services she isn't qualified to offer. From what I understand the OP has "official" lessons at a lesson barn once a week that are (I assume paid for and not traded for) specifically to jump. She rides at this barn to be able to "practice" on a horse that is we are told capable of doing this task. This horse is also used for other lessons. That there is antagonistic competition between these two is a large part of the problem and the horse owner/trainer is doing nothing to foster a better relationship between the girls. That to me says time to do what is best for the horse though I am sure this sort of treatment will continue - just with other riders. That the other child was allowed to ride for that long, jump in a dressage saddle and ride to the point of having a sweaty, heaving horse is unconscionable. 

While I get that it is inconvenient for the sister to feed while you ride it should not be any issue and the horse you are on should carry on with what you are asking without fuss. That you can't keep her engaged says that you aren't at a level to be expected to handle that and that her training isn't where it needs to be for that to be expected of her. We can all offer solutions but the reality is only those of you involved in this situation know what is or isn't possible or acceptable. You as a minor or at the mercy of those around you. Being mature enough to sort through the advice given and come up with a workable solution for all involved would be ideal. Coming to vent is also acceptable but let us know which of the two are you looking for - an answer or a sympathetic ear.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> So I got to my lesson on Tuesday and I saw that she was still jumping Emily. When I walked out to the arena carrying my saddle and all my tack she hopped off and handed me reins. The horse was already dripping sweat and panting. My trainer also wouldn't let me change out our saddles so I had to ride in a dressage saddle with stirrups that were too short for me and couldn't be adjusted to my length.


Sorry, keep coming back to this, as I am really struggling here..

So, was the trainer coaching her for two hours, the trainer who doesn't coach jumping?

Too get into a dressage saddle, and have the stirrups too short, and couldn't be adjusted to fit, must mean that the other girl must be really tiny?

If you are in the habit of changing into your own tack, then you should be in the arena, and asking to change horse at least 15 minutes before you are due to ride, to give tie for the change, were you running late?

I REALLY struggle with a trainer who is not invested enough to make sure that your tack fits you before the start....BUT I have seen many a kid who has ridden without stirrups at my barn because they dallied about, messed around and didn't get around to fixing them in time, then they get taken away.


Then there is this 



> So its kind of complicated. But the trainer there doesn't know anything about jumping. She is more of the "All I can do is teach you the basics" kind of thing. So now that I get training from a different barn about jumping and she can't help me she always says "I'll just let you do your own thing and stay out of the way" She is also in college and had a big exam coming up so I was just going to "do my own thing" while she studied in the house.


So WHY are you trying to get instruction from someone who doesn't teach jumping, when you have jumping lessons at another barn....

Jump at the other barn, ride a different horse here and learn the basics.....as @sarahfromsc said, it is Emily who is the victim here, if you like her, step away and think of her best interest..


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> Sorry, keep coming back to this, as I am really struggling here..
> 
> So, was the trainer coaching her for two hours, the trainer who doesn't coach jumping?
> 
> ...


I have to have a certain amount of lessons a month to show. I show with another barn but they are a 1 hour drive away from my school and I can't make it down there enough to get in all my lessons. The barn Emily is at is 10 minutes from my school and the trainer is more of a backyard horses kind of trainer. Her daughters tried showing years ago but they didn't like it so they just ride for fun. She just went back to school to pursue a career in something else. I have been riding Emily for 4 years and the trainer rode when she was younger doing dressage and drill team. When I started riding there when I was younger I didn't know that I wanted to jump so she just taught me the basics of dressage. She has 2 jumps so I would jump once in a while for fun. I didn't decide to go into jumping full time until 2 summers ago, so when that happened I went to the other barn thats further and got my lessons there so I learned what I needed to do and to develop my jumping seat. So when I go to Emilys barn and I took group lessons I would just practice what the other barn taught me in jumping while the other girl learned the basics of dressage from the trainer. Then once the other girl decided to jump as well the trainer would make us switch horses because the halflinger she was riding doesn't jump. Thats when we started having problems. Eventually we sorted things out and I thought we had become friends so I started teaching her what I knew about jumping because I saw a lot of myself in her and the situation she was in as she wanted to jump and her mom wouldn't let her get lessons somewhere else like I did. Now that she has fallen in love with jumping she decided that she needed to get more time on Emily, which I get because Emily is the most willing jumper at the barn, so she told the trainer she didn't want to ride with me anymore so she could get full lessons on Emily. Thats when this overworking situation started. The reason that the trainer doesn't stay outside with me is because she can't help me with anything anyways since she doesn't know jumping. The only reason she used to stay out with me was for the other girl. Just a side note, she doesn't leave me unattended. Where she studies there is a sliding glass door so she can look out and check on me whenever she needs to. She simpily wasn't looking when Emily would pull a stunt. Hope this cleared things up for you. if not just let me know, I'm glad to answer any questions! This was the highest I got to jump for a while because I didn't know what I was doing


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Hope the woman carries liability.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> I have to have a certain amount of lessons a month to show. I show with another barn but they are a 1 hour drive away from my school and I can't make it down there enough to get in all my lessons. The barn Emily is at is 10 minutes from my school and the trainer is more of a backyard horses kind of trainer. Her daughters tried showing years ago but they didn't like it so they just ride for fun. She just went back to school to pursue a career in something else. I have been riding Emily for 4 years and the trainer rode when she was younger doing dressage and drill team. When I started riding there when I was younger I didn't know that I wanted to jump so she just taught me the basics of dressage. She has 2 jumps so I would jump once in a while for fun.
> 
> I didn't decide to go into jumping full time until 2 summers ago, so when that happened I went to the other barn thats further and got my lessons there so I learned what I needed to do and to develop my jumping seat. So when I go to Emilys barn and I took group lessons I would just practice what the other barn taught me in jumping while the other girl learned the basics of dressage from the trainer. Then once the other girl decided to jump as well the trainer would make us switch horses because the halflinger she was riding doesn't jump. Thats when we started having problems. Eventually we sorted things out and I thought we had become friends so I started teaching her what I knew about jumping because I saw a lot of myself in her and the situation she was in as she wanted to jump and her mom wouldn't let her get lessons somewhere else like I did.
> 
> Now that she has fallen in love with jumping she decided that she needed to get more time on Emily, which I get because Emily is the most willing jumper at the barn, so she told the trainer she didn't want to ride with me anymore so she could get full lessons on Emily. Thats when this overworking situation started. The reason that the trainer doesn't stay outside with me is because she can't help me with anything anyways since she doesn't know jumping. The only reason she used to stay out with me was for the other girl. Just a side note, she doesn't leave me unattended. Where she studies there is a sliding glass door so she can look out and check on me whenever she needs to. She simpily wasn't looking when Emily would pull a stunt. Hope this cleared things up for you. if not just let me know, I'm glad to answer any questions! This was the highest I got to jump for a while because I didn't know what I was doing


I hope I have cleared up things for people by adding some paragraphs in here, walls of text are very hard for a lot of people to cope with..please break things up a little.

As to your reply, no, no it doesn't clear up much, just makes muddier waters that much more murky....you haven't addressed the issue with the saddle, heck when the 'trainer' I'm using that term loosely, went indoors you could have popped off and changed the saddle, 2 minutes job done.....

The best I can say to all of this is, to echo @QtrBel, it sounds like a bit of a mess all around, and I hoe the insurance is good.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> I hope I have cleared up things for people by adding some paragraphs in here, walls of text are very hard for a lot of people to cope with..please break things up a little.
> 
> As to your reply, no, no it doesn't clear up much, just makes muddier waters that much more murky....you haven't addressed the issue with the saddle, heck when the 'trainer' I'm using that term loosely, went indoors you could have popped off and changed the saddle, 2 minutes job done.....
> 
> The best I can say to all of this is, to echo @QtrBel, it sounds like a bit of a mess all around, and I hoe the insurance is good.


The reasoning for the saddle was that we were losing daylight and she didn't want me to waste time changing out the saddle when I could have used the time riding. I didn't end up using that time anyways but it was the owners choice and I wasn't going to contridict her.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> As to your reply, no, no it doesn't clear up much, just makes muddier waters that much more murky....you haven't addressed the issue with the saddle, heck when the 'trainer' I'm using that term loosely, went indoors you could have popped off and changed the saddle, 2 minutes job done.....
> .


 It sounded as if the other girl was riding right up to when the OP arrived for her lesson so getting there 15 minutes earlier to change saddles wouldn't have been an option and after that the 'trainer ' seemed to be calling the shots.


Apart from that it just seems to me that for the sake of the horse you should quit this place, no matter how much you like her she isn't yours and never will be yours.
If you're serious about jumping then you need to focus on having lessons that are aimed at helping you do that because right now you're not getting the help you need
Muddling along on your own is only causing you to get into bad habits and basically 'do it wrong' - you need someone experienced on the floor yelling at you when that happens


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## Layneywashere (Apr 6, 2018)

I can definitely see your side of this. I would be concerned this is to much work for the horse also. Two hours of work followed by another hour of work could be very straining on a horse, even in peak shape. This also makes me question the trainer, a trainer should be looking out for the horse just as much as the rider, and if you were there for a lesson why leave you alone to ride? That doesn’t make any sence. Try to talking to your trainer. I would also consider finding a new barn to train at or a different trainer that can offer you lessons.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

From the situation you've described, these are _not_ lessons. It's simply free riding time with virtually no supervision. In fact, this "instructor" sounds so irresponsible and worthless that I would advise _not _taking any of her advice even if she could bother to take the time to work with you. 

If poor Emily is in this bad of shape when you arrive, decide to do what is right for the horse and take a walk with her, cool her down, spend time with he and stop trying to jump her. To work her in this condition make _you_ party to the abuse. Is that what you want? 

A relationship between a massage therapist and a customer is not a friendship, it's a business arrangement. "Freeby" trades of services sometimes work out but often do not. You are not valued as a paying customer at this place and you will not learn anything productive. Give the horse a break and don't work her if she is in this condition.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

*Update! Everything is good now*

So on Tuesday I went to my lesson prepared to just walk Emily depending on her condition. I looked at the arena and no one was out there riding. I went to the barn and the other girl was tacking up her pony. She started talking to me and she was like "I'm sorry about leaving our group lessons, I know your showing on Saturday so I agreed to letting you use Emily for the whole hour." I was very confused because I thought that she was switching our lessons forever. Now this girl is like 3 years younger then me, but her sister is a year older then me and her and I used to get along great until I started showing (She is against it so it strained our "friendship") her sister eventually quit riding because she was in it for fun and when I started having to get ready for shows I didn't have time to put on a western saddle and play musical feed bags anymore, and the trainers daughter quit too so she got bored and stopped coming. Supposedly, the younger girl said that her sister wanted to come back for a week to just ride and hangout but she didn't want to interfere with my training. However her comeback just showed how much she was over riding and changed her mind so her sister didn't want to ride alone and came back to me. I'm not sure her story is true considering the orginal story was that she wanted more time on Emily, but I'm not going to drag it on more then it needs to be.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Even if one discounts all the barn drama here, it still does not sound like any sort of professional place to be if you are serious about success. Actually, not even if it's just to learn the basics. I understand you really are not in control of the situation. Just stay safe and take care of that horse. Somebody needs to be looking out for her.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Don't assume everything is good now. She may only be nice because there is a show coming. Doesn't mean she will be nice next week.
This reminds me of why i wanted my own horse so badly. I half leased a horse every summer. One of the other girls would come and work my lease horse hard the day before. He would be exhausted every time I rode. Looking back, he probably wasn't getting fed enough and he probably had stomach ulcers. Of course, i was just a kid and didn't know any better. Now i do.

If you want to ride for free try posting on Facebook in the trail riding group for your area. Usually there is someone who has an extra horse that needs exercising. it might not be jumping, but you will get your ride time in. Trails are fun and there are usually some down trees to hop over. If you know how to ride, there will never be a shortage of horses to ride.


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