# Ugh. The "fear free training" sham



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Wow. Just...wow. :shock:


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

I think I know the trainer/writer you are speaking of. For some reason it is all over my Facebook, all the time. I will start off by saying that I too do not like this approach. When it comes to the whole fear free/natural horsemanship debate, I don't discuss it with people, I discuss it with my horse. 

Many trainers like the one you have encountered have some sort of complex, believing that all horses who are trained via traditional methods are caged animals with no free will who are desperately seeking to escape the torment of their owners. If that were the case, then why does my horse approach me every time I enter her pen, ears forward and looking for pets? Why does she 'groom' my back when I bend over while sweeping the barn floor? Why do her ears flicker back and forth as I speak to her while riding? Why does she obey me with a soft, kind eye? If she hates me so much, then why does she show me the opposite?

I was watching some horsemanship videos on YouTube the other day, and was baffled by one particular comment I saw.



> Off with iron spurs and metal bits in horses' mouths! They are remnants from midieval days which are long gone.


Is that really so true? Sure, society has evolved, but training a horse in the 21st century is no less dangerous than it was several centuries before. Riders and handlers still face the same risks that come with training an animal 10 times their size. The principles of horsemanship haven't changed and, if we can all recall, ancient Romans invented early dressage. I've read some passages from these ancient texts, and it's surreal how absolutely relevant the information still is. What the Romans discussed several thousand years ago, we still discuss today.

It is impossible to train any horse without letting them know when they produce an undesirable result. Since we do not speak the same language, we must show them the only way a horse knows how: physically. 

If my horse is bulging to the outside (undesirable result), I can apply a *light *spur to that outside barrel. The feeling would be similar if someone poked you in the ribs with a single finger. What would you do? You would bulge the other way, but you would not complain that the sensation was painful. You would simply think that it was a bit annoying. If you did not respond to someone poking you, that person would attempt to gain the desired result by increasing the pressure of the finger, and they can continue to up the discomfort level until they gained the response they wanted - the same way how we can up the pressure of our spurs, bits, and other cues. *The only thing that separates training from abuse is fairness: using the correct amount of pressure in any given situation.* If you can master this, your horse will never be in fear or pain. 

Perhaps it's the advantage of owning a sensitive Arabian mare - but believe me, my horse will tell me when I am being unfair. Sometimes I use a little too much spur for no good reason, and she answers with a crow hop. I always acknowledge my error, and I even speak to her "Sorry, girl" and correct myself. She forgives me, and I forgive her, then we move on. 

Horses are very strong, very powerful creatures and no matter how big your bit or spurs are, if they want to go in a particular direction and throw you off THEY WILL!!!! Since my horse has done neither of those, I will continue to assume that she considers my relationship with her fair. She is never in fear, or pain, unless it is deserved, and she understands this. She gets what is coming to her when necessary, and thus she remains a safe animal for humans to be around and ride... If I ever ran out of a round pen if she misbehaved, I can guarantee you she be neither safe, nor rideable.


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## Bedhead (Aug 4, 2013)

everybody owes it to themselves once in their life to ride an Arabian mare  Egyptian bred if you can find one, but any other strain will do just fine, hehe. She'll be sure to set you straight and Lord help you if you try to pick a fight with her.

But all these 'you can do it yourself if you buy my book/dvd/carror stick/etc." things just make me cringe; Novices can't read body language and need a trainer/someone who knows what's going on watching them, and unfortunately that's who these books and whatnot are aimed at. Any experienced horse person would know better than "Just leave the pasture and give the horse time to think about what they did". Sure, he's thinking, but the only thing he's thinking is "Human enters paddock>Charge>Human leaves>I don't work>Awesome, let's do it again."


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Yeah seen it on Facebook for awhile I just keep scrolling


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## klstarrs (Dec 8, 2015)

They're awful, and very scary!
The other thing that gets me (prob because they read those types of books) are those that turn a decent horse into a dangerous one by being to kind/nice!

I had a pony on part loan a while back while doing some of my equestrian exams (couldn't afford full loan or full time to dedicate so had pony 3 days a week).

It lasted 3 months before I gave up, owner was a teenager who'd never had a lesson in her life, parents had no experience of horses either. I spent all my days fixings the problems she caused, I just couldn't do it anymore, she sold the horse 2 months after I quit our share agreement.

She couldn't canter him because he bucks when you ask for the transition from trot to canter .. spent a week, canter transition buck, buck buck.. kicked him on every buck.. sorted, the next week she could canter on him fine. ( she wouldn't carry a whip, wouldn't kick him on etc.)

He wasn't long clipped in Uk winter, had a spell of a few mild days while she was on school holidays but still icy cold at night.. over 3 days (I wasn't there) she had went from heavy weight rug to medium to a fleece (he's too warm and his spring coat is growing! eh? not in february in UK) and on my next day to do him I get to yard to find him with no rug, stomping and shivering.. put two rugs on him and walked him around the yard for an hour to get his core temp. back up.

Another day (again I wasn't there) she decided to bath him - all over not just legs and not going to show or anything, still cold weather and still on winter clip because he looked a bit dusty on his coat and muddy legs.. he freaked at hose (snapped safety twine first attempt then headcollar 2nd attempt on the same day) He galloped back to stable near missing one of the other border's baby in their pram plus nearly hit another woman who tried to help when he started rearing. After his bolting back to stable he must have hit his hip going through the doorway but didn't hear about it until after I was up next and he was terrified to walk in or out of his stable.

I spend 3 hours a day for 3 days trying to walk him in and out, coaxing him with food etc. (she'd gave up and just took headcollar off outside stable and let him rush in because he knocked her over in his panic of having to go through the doorway.

He started biting/nipping because she constantly gave him titbits to keep him quiet while grooming (he had haynet too)

£3000 pony ruined in a year and sold to dealer for £400.. she thought she was being nice to him


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

Wonder how many people have been severely injured due to this book (and others like it):icon_rolleyes:


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

klstarrs said:


> They're awful, and very scary!
> The other thing that gets me (prob because they read those types of books) are those that turn a decent horse into a dangerous one by being to kind/nice!


This!! What some people don't realize is that the hardest smack you can give a horse is still nothing compared to what they give each other in the pasture. Too much "kindness" has ruined a lot of horses. My dad took in problem stallions when I was growing up and made a business out of it, as well as mares and geldings. Most of these horses were created by a "kind hand" not an abusive one. Ive read many posts here where someone gets a spoilt rotten rescue and says it's due to "abuse". No my friend, it was caused by lack of correction. And you're not doing it a favour by being "kind" to him. You're worsening the problem. It makes me so angry. When we take in rescues they're treated the same as every horse that comes through our barn. With a firm but fair hand. No special treatment (except feed and medical care of course) no love and kisses to turn them around. It's usually a rope halter or a stud shank and a crop in the round pen to establish who's higher in the pecking order right away. They'd be surprised to see how well behaved sweet little (nasty little) Bonnie is after two days with us.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Bedhead said:


> But all these 'you can do it yourself if you buy my book/dvd/carror stick/etc." things just make me cringe; Novices can't read body language and need a trainer/someone who knows what's going on watching them, and unfortunately that's who these books and whatnot are aimed at.


This sums it up rather comically, but also nicely
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvVPdyYeaQU

Ok so its not totally "stupidity" and more ignorance, but it is true that if you don't know what it is you don't know then you are VERY easily led. Furthermore you lack any skill with being able to filter through the myriad of information presented. 

That's why bad information can persist and even strengthen itself. Look at Holistic medicine as a prime example where many people with tiny knowledge of medicine or biology are very easily fooled into thinking it does something that it does not*. 

Riding is the same and when one is ignorant its very easy to see many "traditional" ways of training horses, and animals, as quite barbaric. It's because they've no understanding of what is going on in that moment; furthermore they might even have tried those methods (incorrectly) and gotten a very bad reaction. In addition we have films and books aplenty. People are used to the idea presented in that media - even though we know its not all real it still influences how people perceive things - and for many a film/tvshow/book is where they've probably first and even mostly encountered horses. They see Shadowfax and Black Beauty and those are "real" horses to them. 

Of course the other confusing part is that nestled within the subject of "natural" horse training (And other similar methods with other animals) there are sound reasoned methods and processes. They tend to be very different though and often rely upon a very experienced individual to carry off those methods because they are often reliant upon a greater understanding of the animals language, mentality etc.... Sometimes even down to being almost totally individual understanding of an animal or small group; this making the methods transferable, but not always in their entirety and not always the exact same way for another different individual. 


*Note I'm not disputing its placebo effect.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Overread said:


> They see Shadowfax and Black Beauty and those are "real" horses to them.


LOVE the LOTR reference!!! No one ever seems to think of Shadowfax (or later Brego) when they think of the movies that have led us to believe that horses are some mystical beings who can be tamed with just a gentle hand...and some "magic."


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> LOVE the LOTR reference!!! No one ever seems to think of Shadowfax (or later Brego) when they think of the movies that have led us to believe that horses are some mystical beings who can be tamed with just a gentle hand...and some "magic."


Ugh same as the black stallion. Knew a woman who was absolutely crazy over the black stallion. She even went to lengths of buying her 12 year old son an unhandled black mustang stallion off the range, payed the guy a few bucks not to cut him because "I wouldn't want my manhood cut off". These people had no horse knowledge and kept him in a two foot high electric wire with no shelter. Her son ended up getting kicked quite severely and while he was in hospital the stud got out and got himself shot in the neighbours pasture. They moved thank god and everyone was ultimately okay.


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## Peachy (Nov 20, 2015)

New title for that book "how to get yourself killed"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

I suppose thinking on it more the thing is being nice and kind does actually work - with dogs and cats and rabbits - to an extent. Furthermore the potential problems from those animals are often much smaller in scale and many heavily domestic breeds are pretty docile in general in those groups - heck if cats are all their experience then being all nice and sweet works almost 100% of the time.


So not only does TV tell them its possible, and the book, but also their own experiences of animals reinforces it. 




Going on my own experiences I'd say another factor is confidence. It takes more confidence to risk a more hostile action than a kind one even if the hostile one is the correct action to avoid trouble. As horse is indeed a very powerful creature and whilst some people are oblivious; many are not and thus the idea of "hitting" such a huge animal seems totally daft to them when hte horse can hit back so much harder. So the idea of being sweet and kind and gentle appeals because it means they don't have to confront that confidence barrier. Especially if they have no real life trainer to aid them - to show them how much/little force is needed, when and where and why.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

I just looked up the guy- what he had to say wasn't all bad. He wants horses to be relaxed when they are training and for the horse to take all the time he needs understanding. That's nice.
However he has no idea about bits- how sensitive mouths, fat tongues or parrot mouths take a bit differently. Not everything can go in a loose ting single jointed snaffle- horse performance shows that. The mare I ride goes in a loose ting French link and intermittently in a Waterford to adjust to her need for mobility in her mouth. The Tb gelding likes a fixed ring single joint- if the bit moves too much he gets confused and begins gaping. 

His 'no chasing rule' is absurd
that is how a horse tells another horse that they decide where the other horse goes. 

Spurs are for finesse. Crops are for forward both synthesize pressure similar to that which is intrinsic to them. As they are trained responses can be modified so that cross special attunement (doesn't that sound scientific!) becomes sensitive and familiar. Then tools like spurs and whips have their true effectiveness in a way that is not cruel- but specific and illuminating. The horse that has clear boundaries is happy because he knows right where he is and ought to be.

I heard good quote pertaining to humans "those that stand for nothing stand against everything- no one is more antagonized than when they with a person who is not sure their own person or ideas is worth standing up for- such people cannot be trusted"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

lostastirrup said:


> I just looked up the guy- what he had to say wasn't all bad. He wants horses to be relaxed when they are training and for the horse to take all the time he needs understanding. That's nice.
> However he has no idea about bits- how sensitive mouths, fat tongues or parrot mouths take a bit differently. Not everything can go in a loose ting single jointed snaffle- horse performance shows that. The mare I ride goes in a loose ting French link and intermittently in a Waterford to adjust to her need for mobility in her mouth. The Tb gelding likes a fixed ring single joint- if the bit moves too much he gets confused and begins gaping.
> 
> His 'no chasing rule' is absurd
> ...


Great post! I do believe the author in question was a woman, but I'm not sure as I can't read the authors name :s all the pictures are of the same grey haired woman lol.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Timeouts for kids to think do not work either....lol


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> Quote- "when working with aggressive horses, retreating is the best road to follow." A chapter on aggression in the pasture. The advice given was "when your horse attempts to charge you, yell loudly and retreat from the enclosure. Give him time to calm down, time to think about what he's done and attempt to re enter."


Yeah, he's thinking about what he did alright. He's also thinking "Since I'm in charge now, the next time you come in here, I'm gonna stomp your butt"


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I'm afraid this kind of thinking is rampant in all kinds of animal training these days. It is hand and hand with the idea of "rescuing", morality-based vegetarianism, etc. It is in my opinion at its heart a desire to feel a connection with other species that modern society has severed. 

The trouble is, of course, that what is lacking is actual hands-on experience, and because the goal is to have 'oneness', anything that interrupts the narrative of compassion and freedom and interconnection (such as delivering strongly unpleasant consequences for bad behavior) simply is dismissed as barbaric, cruel, medieval, or whatever. The stories people tell themselves and each other about what is happening, so that they can keep believing in the fairy tale, are truly jaw-dropping. 

I could tell lots of tales about the doggie training world . . . where even if you won't get your head kicked in, you can have other very unpleasant consequences. 

But of course it is the animals that suffer.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Bedhead said:


> everybody owes it to themselves once in their life to ride an Arabian mare  Egyptian bred if you can find one, but any other strain will do just fine, hehe. She'll be sure to set you straight and Lord help you if you try to pick a fight with her.
> 
> But all these 'you can do it yourself if you buy my book/dvd/carror stick/etc." things just make me cringe; Novices can't read body language and need a trainer/someone who knows what's going on watching them, and unfortunately that's who these books and whatnot are aimed at. Any experienced horse person would know better than "Just leave the pasture and give the horse time to think about what they did". Sure, he's thinking, but the only thing he's thinking is "Human enters paddock>Charge>Human leaves>I don't work>Awesome, let's do it again."


 I have worked with several Arabs and one Egyptian stallion in particular that changed my thinking on handling horses. That horse taught me more in a few months than all the trainers I ever worked with

As for the instruction to "give the horse time to think about what he did", I would rather he think about the fact that I'm not easily intimidated. Here is where being able to"read" the horse comes in. Knowing if the behavior is a bluff or the horse means business


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

Was the name of the book "Fear-Free Horse Training with Neil Davies"?
I found him on Facebook. Heck, he doesn't even ride with his heels down. Maybe he had some stupid reason for that? I pointed it out and my comments were removed. Of course.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I have seen the consequences of being too "nice" to an animal first hand many times, also dabbled a little bit in the "no harsh physical correction" type training a while back and my very strong willed mustang mare taught me very quickly that it does NOT work. It is very true that a horse is happiest when 1) he knows his boundaries and his place and 2) he has a job and a purpose. I've also learned over time that the best way to correct a horse is hard and fast immediately after the offense so the horse knows exactly what they did wrong. Then you carry on as if nothing happened, calm and relaxed, no big deal.

We moved our horses to a new stable, which is the first boarding stable I have ever actually loved being at. On moving day, my mother's horse Belle was being a butt jerking on the lead while my less horse-experienced husband was holding her. I came over and grabbed the lead while she was in mid-jerk and jerked her back hard one time. Then she stood and stopped for a minute, but tried again a minute later and I jerked her again. We carried on this way while one of the other boarders came over and started talking to me about mares and how he used to have a couple but didn't get along with them. As Belle carried on (but doing it less and less as the minutes passed) and I corrected her, this man kept petting her face and "shushing" her trying to get her to "calm down". He clearly had the "be kind dont correct" method. I find out later he is the owner of Spirit, the horse who has a reputation for being bad tempered at the stable, doesn't get along with other horses, and after what I observed today, apparently has a problem biting humans as well! Irony?


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Even 30 years ago some people - mostly novice owners - didn't understand that you have to occasionally be cruel to be kind when it comes to training. 

When I would take young horses (mostly BLM mustangs straight from the auction block) in for training, it wasn't unusual as part of my contract that they couldn't come visit without calling first. I'd tell them it was because I couldn't divide my attention between the horse and them; in reality it was because part of 'gentling' a wild animal is that weighs hundreds of pounds more than you do often becomes a contest of will and dominance. 

Some people don't understand that you aren't really hurting the horse; you're just teaching it respect in its own language.


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## Alhefner (Nov 11, 2015)

I often have trouble taking a lot of the "positive only" type methods for animal training. The idea that no animal ever learns, or only learns fear, from properly applied correction is just plain wrong.

One of the things I tend to wonder about is some of the terminology used. For example "asking" an animal, horse or dog or whatever, to do something goes against the grain with me... when I want my dog or a horse to do something, I'm not asking... I'm commanding and I expect that command to be followed... Of course, I'm also quite "opinionated" in my own views and tend to keep a lot of my ideas to myself. Not saying I can't be taught though!


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Alhefner said:


> I often have trouble taking a lot of the "positive only" type methods for animal training. The idea that no animal ever learns, or only learns fear, from properly applied correction is just plain wrong.
> 
> One of the things I tend to wonder about is some of the terminology used. For example "asking" an animal, horse or dog or whatever, to do something goes against the grain with me... when I want my dog or a horse to do something, I'm not asking... I'm commanding and I expect that command to be followed... Of course, I'm also quite "opinionated" in my own views and tend to keep a lot of my ideas to myself. Not saying I can't be taught though!


Yes! I've often been referred to as a "drill sergeant" around my horses. I've also had people (who weren't horse sensible) tell me I'm mean to them because I "make" them do things. I have strict ground rules for my animals but it is literally the least they can do as most of them don't get ridden anymore. They CAN and will stay out of my space at feeding time or they'll get a good whack, it's not that hard. Everyone seems to think I'm asking so much?!


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## Bedhead (Aug 4, 2013)

You have some nerve not wanting to be ran over by hungry horses at feed time 😂
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Change said:


> Even 30 years ago some people - mostly novice owners - didn't understand that you have to occasionally be cruel to be kind when it comes to training.
> 
> When I would take young horses (mostly BLM mustangs straight from the auction block) in for training, it wasn't unusual as part of my contract that they couldn't come visit without calling first. I'd tell them it was because I couldn't divide my attention between the horse and them; in reality it was because part of 'gentling' a wild animal is that weighs hundreds of pounds more than you do often becomes a contest of will and dominance.
> 
> Some people don't understand that you aren't really hurting the horse; you're just teaching it respect in its own language.


I can't even remember how many times I've asked an owner to make a coffee run while I'm working with a naughty horse. By the time the coffee shows up, by magic, the horse is no longer naughty!


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

Yeah, I actually had a post about him in the Training section just recently cause he is so ALL OVER my facebook and got on my nerves.
Not impressed. His riding sucks too. I commented critically on one of his posts once and it got deleted immediately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

It always amazes me how one person's correction is another person's abuse. 

I know I've shared it many times, but this subject always brings to mind the boarder at my old barn whose mare threw me.

I was picking Aires' feet one day and she was chatting with me as I worked. He's always been bad about his back feet. He tried to pull away and when that didn't work, he tried to cow kick me. I stood up and whacked him on the hip and told him to quit it. He knew that that wasn't allowed, he was just being a butt. This lady freaked out. Started telling me how she'd never hit her horse because it might hurt her and how I was cruel. Keep in mind that this is the same lady who refused to brush her horse because it might hurt her and when her horse was grazing on weeds while she was standing and chatting with my friend and I and we mentioned that it might not be a good idea to let her do that, she literally reached her hand into this psycho mare's mouth and pulled them out, all while baby-talking to her and telling her how the weeds were icky and she shouldn't be eating them. :icon_rolleyes: 

A week later, my trainer friend came to me and told me that the lady was spreading a rumor around the barn that I abused and beat my horse. Luckily, I'd been there longer than she had and everyone knew me and how I handled my horse, so no one believed her. In fact, one of the boarders (an older cowboy with a nice little gaited pinto gelding) laughed right in her face. :lol:

She subscribed to that website that was popular a few years back that was completely ridiculous...I think it was called "Rainbow Horsemanship" or some ludicrous name like that. It preached no bits, no saddles, no vet or farrier care of any kind...and absolutely no corrections. :icon_rolleyes:


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Speaking of rumours! Caught wind that someone in the village is spreading around that my fathers neglecting our horses.. Starving, beating etc. Unbelievable.


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> She subscribed to that website that was popular a few years back that was completely ridiculous...I think it was called "Rainbow Horsemanship" or some ludicrous name like that. It preached no bits, no saddles, no vet or farrier care of any kind...and absolutely no corrections. :icon_rolleyes:


Good lord. How are they supposed to learn? Through telepathy?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I assume the person under discussion is this guy:

Fear Free Horse Training with Neil Davies

I disagree with many of his ideas, but not all. For example:
"Horses learn only from the immediate result they get. You must correct your horse by making things slightly unpleasant for him at the exact time that he uses unwanted behaviour. It’s too late to correct your horse even a few seconds after the event, because he won’t relate the unpleasantness with the unwanted behaviour. 

Equally, you must make things easy and pleasant for your horse immediately he does as you ask. If you don’t reward your horse immediately, he won’t relate the pleasantness with the desired behaviour."

"The truth is that horses don’t know or care what you think is good or bad. Horses simply do whatever’s easiest for them. If you make it easy for your horse to stop, kick up, pull the reins and run home, then that’s what he’ll do. If you make it easy for your horse to listen to you, to walk, trot and canter perfect circles and to try his hardest for you, then that’s what he’ll do. 

Left to their own devices, horses couldn’t care less if their circles are perfect or not, or if they walk, trot and canter at the right time. However, every horse can learn to try his hardest. Every horse can learn to co-operate with you and to move exactly when and how you ask. And I’m sure that every horse will find this more enjoyable than resisting and fighting with his rider. 

Horses simply learn what behaviours make life easy and what behaviours make life unpleasant for them."​OTOH, he says a lot of stuff I disagree with. His ideas on bits are:
"I guess I’m no expert because I haven’t a clue why you’d ever use any more than a plain loose-ring snaffle bit for any horse to do anything. I’ve never met a horse that couldn’t feel a plain loose-ring snaffle bit in his mouth. I’ve never met a horse that couldn’t feel a headstall on his nose or a string around his neck. 

A bit, a headstall or even a piece of string around your horse’s neck is simply a way to give your horse a signal. When you pull on the bit, headstall or string, your horse will find it unpleasant to varying degrees. When you don’t pull, your horse will find things relatively easy and pleasant. This is the only way any bit or headstall can be used to train any horse. Pull –unpleasant, give –pleasant."​I guess I know more than he does, because I understand WHY a curb bit can be a very gentle option, and have seen it work very well as a training tool. On snaffles, I can think of reasons to prefer a D-ring over an O-ring.

He likes foals to be handled immediately, dislikes round pens (I view them as an overrated training tool, but good for some limited purposes), believes desensitization doesn't work (I think it does for limited goals), etc, etc.

But here is a quote from him on leading, which indicates he does understand a need to control the horse:
"A horse that drags along behind or rushes forward or pulls away or pushes over his handler is telling you that he’s not confident and relaxed. It’s nothing to do with ‘respect’ or the horse ‘invading your personal space’. Such a horse has never had consistency in his training. One minute he’s allowed to run, the next minute he’s allowed to walk. He’s allowed to push over the handler or to rush ahead or pull away. From the horse’s point of view nothing’s definite, so he can’t relax. 

The handler must have an exact circle in mind where and how he wants the horse to walk. When the horse walks this circle, life is easy and pleasant. When there’s a variation to the circle, the handler must make things a little unpleasant for the horse. Horses aren’t stupid, they’ll take the easy option every time. It won’t take long for a horse to work out that all he has to do is walk a simple circle and life is easy and pleasant."
​I don't own his book and do not intend to buy it. But I also don't see any need to get worked up over him. As for his riding...this is not pure evil, either:


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I'm fascinated by the underlying motives of those who believe sentient beings learn best when there are no negative consequences, ever. Nobody, nothing, learns best that way. We learn by getting feedback of all kinds from our environment. 

My daughter just bounced her first check. Sadly it was her rent check! Bet she won't make that mistake again. When I was sixteen I was under the impression you can substitute cake ingredients (like chocolate drink mix for cocoa). Didn't do that twice. 

All sentient beings navigate through life by constantly recalibrating their behavior through environmental cues. Some are unnoticeably tiny like losing and regaining your balance while moving (often referred to as walking), some are more like touching a hot stove.

It is the trainer's part to discern whether what is needed is a hot stove or a tiny sensitive adjustment.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> It always amazes me how one person's correction is another person's abuse.
> 
> I know I've shared it many times, but this subject always brings to mind the boarder at my old barn whose mare threw me.
> 
> ...


People like this make me gag.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Avna said:


> It is the trainer's part to discern whether what is needed is a hot stove or a tiny sensitive adjustment.


I love this!!!!! :loveshower:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I partially agree with the guy. He uses the term "_slightly unpleasant for him at the exact time that he uses unwanted behaviour_". I prefer Tom Robert's phrasing "_This will profit you not_". 

The US Cavalry manual on riding said well-done punishment was very effective, but then said very few riders punished a horse well. Those that didn't know how to do it well were better off not punishing at all since poorly done punishment was a huge source of problems.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I love my stout 12' rope. When anticipating going into a pen with a new horse I'll have watched it for about 10 min to get a sense of it and then enter. I may just walk around the perimeter slowly, maybe stop, reverse still watching the horse. If nothing aggressive appears it will be asked to move using as little pressure as possible to get the result. As soon as it does I'll turn away for a few moments then ask again. If the horse displays aggression then my demeanor changes to "I'm going to kill you if you mess with me" as I approach the horse's shoulder. They sense this and most will move away, especially with a little encouragement with the rope, just moving it. The one that tried going over top of me felt the sting of a well delivered smack of the rope on her neck near her jaw which turned her away. The consequence matched the severity of her aggression. She tried it a second time and then we got along just fine.


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## Kirkr (Feb 13, 2017)

Sorry to bump this up, but it seemed like a great thread!


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