# What creates a "spoilt" horse?



## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

I have seen folks here mention again and again problems with "spoilt" horses. And I'm wondering, how are spoilt horses created? The owner's treatment of the horse is what spoils it, I assume, but how does that happen? How is a spoilt horse treated by its owner? And how does a spoilt horse behave?

And I guess the next question is, how do you unspoil a horse? :lol:


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

In my opinion a spoiled horse is much like a spoiled child. It is convinced that the person in charge is not really in charge. For a horse that means the owner does not follow through. So these horses get away with things like kicking or biting or the owner does X, and Y but not Z because the horse does not like Z.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

There are no horses in this world that are "spoiled". They don't comprehend as a spoiled child does. However, there are lots of horses who have been conditioned by their owners/handlers to act as they do - by bad timing, by basically rewarding the horse for unwanted behavior, by ignoring the birth of dangerous habits (e.g., "He doesn't bite, he just likes nibbling my shoulder!" and by misinterpreting horse body language/herd psychology.

This can be reversed by conditioning the horse correctly, according to what the handler/owner wants him to behave like - basically it means rewarding in the right moment for the right thing.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Saranda said:


> There are no horses in this world that are "spoiled". They don't comprehend as a spoiled child does. However, there are lots of horses who have been conditioned by their owners/handlers to act as they do - by bad timing, by basically rewarding the horse for unwanted behavior, by ignoring the birth of dangerous habits (e.g., "He doesn't bite, he just likes nibbling my shoulder!" and by misinterpreting horse body language/herd psychology.
> 
> This can be reversed by conditioning the horse correctly, according to what the handler/owner wants him to behave like - basically it means rewarding in the right moment for the right thing.


Just curious then Saranda: What word do you use to describe a horse that has been conditioned this way? (If you don't want to use the word "spoiled"?)

Semantics aside, my horse Red was a 1300-pound SPOILED horse when I got him as a 6-year-old. No ground manners. His owner had allowed him to walk all over her and always be in your bubble. He'd never really been disciplined and never been asked to work. Just was allowed to get away with whatever he wanted. 

There are certain things we are still working on, and probably always will (being soft in the bridle is one of them). But you can bet that he has learned to respect my space because I've indicated to him that that's how it's gonna be. 

Your horse will do what you allow them to do.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I just call them horses who are being what they are - horses. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I know a REALLY spoiled horse. the owner is not firm with her and pushed and nags at her. Dose NOT demand respect and because of her treating her like "her baby" she is dangerous. The mare tried to disconnect my head from my shoulders because she did not want to go in her stall (did the same to the BO and i was the only one not recovering from a hip surgery that could catch her).

I "spoil" my mare, but i also remind her when she is pushing her limits, and she will get a refresher if she oversteps herself. THAT is why my mare is behaved and "and angel" and others are "monsters" (not my words)


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

Lack of discipline. I did it to my horse when I got him, being 13 and not knowing any better. I wanted him to "like" me, so I praised him and gave him treats and let him walk all over me. In reality, it was totally counterproductive and he turned sour and tried to kill me every chance he got. It took years of correction with a good trainer to fix it, but now that he knows he can't pull one over on me, we're best buds. 

The only way to fix it is to enforce clear and consistent boundaries. Horses thrive on strong leadership and will be happier for it.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I often use the phrase "spoiled rotten" to describe my horses but it has nothing to do with bad behavior. Learned behavior may describe it more accurately because they are very much creatures of habit and they like their routines. Some examples of why I call them spoiled are:

If I need to change their normal feeding time by more than a half hour either way it will take me twice as long as normal because they're all like "What, you expect me to come to the barn right now? Make me!" Which means I have to go out and run them into the barn.

If they have itchy spots they come and stand beside me and give me the "look" that says, "Hey, can you help me out here?". My old gelding carries it a few steps further by lining up to me in a way that shows where he wants scratched (chest he lines up face to face, for his belly he turns sideways, and yes, turns his butt to me for a butt scratch and doesn't get into trouble for that move because after 27 years together I have no worries that it's meant in an aggressive manner). If I ignore him he nudges my arm with his top lip.

When they are used to getting hay and I leave it out once the grass is up in the spring for the first few days they'll follow me around after I turn them out and then all line up along the fence as I'm leaving the barnyard to let me know I'm forgetting something.

In the hot summer months they'll all come running if they see me with the water hose out and then all line up to get sprayed. And again the old guy does his lip thing on my arm if I'm spraying someone else and he wants the hose turned on him. He has me very well trained to his lip thing.

So they have learned that they can use their body language to communicate their wants to me and they take full advantage of it so in turn I call them spoiled rotten because more often than not I give them what they want. In no way does it mean that they are not expected to be mannerly at all times. It's very rare that one of them will test their boundaries or my patience and never longer than it takes for me to get a sharp "NO!" out of my mouth or a poke with my finger if they are invading my space (for clarification sake I consider my space to be my body and they can stand as close as they want as long as they are behaving themselves and don't try to unplant my feet, I'm not a "I need a bubble around me" kinda person). It helps that I've raised most of them from either foals or a young age so we've had years to establish what is tolerable and what's not.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

^If my horse did the lip thing to me he would be backing to the next county. And I also decide when to give the scratches, because the beta horse starts grooming the alpha horse first in a horse herd. 

There simply is no other word to describe a horse who wants want they want now and they don't care if they run over you to get it. You should decide when the horse gets what, and how they have to act to get it. My gelding when he came to me was hugely spoilt. His previous owner never got after him, always bribed him with treats, and avoided doing things he didn't like. He was pushy while leading and would paw if you expected him to stand tied. When he came to me I found out that if he didn't get his way he would turn to aggression to get it. 

So fast forward a few months and now he is a perfect gentleman, but he will always be one that you give him an inch he'll take a mile. He's overly dominant with anybody and any horse and you definitely have to always expect and reinforce his best manners. To get him unspoiled took a lot of work. When I first got him he would not back. At all. There was no way you were going to get him to move and he's 18h 1400lbs, I'm 5'9" but still only 115 lbs. So it took a lot of work and getting louder/bigger than I've ever had to with any horse. Say you smacked him for being nippy, he would charge you and try to pound you into the ground. If you got after him for pawing while tied he tried to kick you. He was BAD, so he was definitely spoiled. I equate it with a kid throwing a tantrum if they didn't get their way, he was throwing a horse "tantrum". 

I think people put too much thought into what words they use to describe a horse and I don't get that.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I don't mind the lip thing. Its their hands. If i say stop, my mare knows to stop. If she dose not she would be in trouble. But otherwise i welcome communication.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

SullysRider, that just a difference between you and me. I don't feel the need to correct him for doing his lip thing because I don't see it as an issue. Now if he carried it a step further and tried to use his teeth then that's a whole different ballgame. He learned not to bite when he was 2 years old and thought he could get by with it. To this day you can put your fingers in his mouth and he will not bite down on them. Him asking for a scratch from me does not even come close to what I've asked from him over the years. 

I believe the trust and respect issue is a two way street and as long as they do what I want, when I want when they are under halter or saddle then I can accommodate them a little when they aren't as long as they ask in a non aggressive manner. I guess it's a matter of a persons perspective as to what's aggressive or bad behavior and what isn't.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

it really depends on what you want to accept. I also allow behaviors that some would not, such as the lip thing. Well, let 's say, I don't go to pieces about it. I tap his face to move his nose off to discourage it, but I don't get so strong and firm about it that he will never even consider doing it again. 

I realize that that is the very sort of disciplining that creates spoiled horses. 
But, if he were to ever move his hind end toward me, I would be very quick to cut that behavior off, totally. it is NOT acceptable and I don't want to discuss it over and over again.

So, in my view, for my level of acceptance, he is not spoilt. another rider would simply not tolerate any kind of "hey, what about me?" kind of lipping. and if the horse had any biting in him, that , too, would have to be fully eliminated.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Part of it comes with knowing the horse. If Trooper turned his butt to me, he'd be threatening (extremely unlikely, BTW) - and get in a ton of trouble. If Mia does it, she is begging for a butt scratch. I'll give about 10-15 seconds of as hard a rub as I am capable of, while she rocks back and forth...and then she turns back to me or ambles off, depending on her mood.

In like manner, they learn our moods and oddities. Regardless of how they view it among themselves, they all understand that I am not being subordinate if I walk up and rub their withers for a moment. They have come to understand that as "We're relaxed together".

What I will do to and tolerate from Mia differs from a strange horse because we've spent 6 years around each other and read each other well. I don't worry if she licks my forearm, but I'd never let a strange horse do that to me.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

JCnGrace said:


> SullysRider, that just a difference between you and me. I don't feel the need to correct him for doing his lip thing because I don't see it as an issue. Now if he carried it a step further and tried to use his teeth then that's a whole different ballgame. He learned not to bite when he was 2 years old and thought he could get by with it. To this day you can put your fingers in his mouth and he will not bite down on them. Him asking for a scratch from me does not even come close to what I've asked from him over the years.
> 
> I believe the trust and respect issue is a two way street and as long as they do what I want, when I want when they are under halter or saddle then I can accommodate them a little when they aren't as long as they ask in a non aggressive manner. I guess it's a matter of a persons perspective as to what's aggressive or bad behavior and what isn't.


I didn't mean it as an attack on you, though I can see how it could be viewed that way. I more so meant it as an example I guess you could say, my horse would take that little inch and run with it. 
My other gelding, who I lost in February, I would let lick me, I knew he wasn't going to use his teeth. He was as submissive as they come and even at 17.1 he was always last on the totem pole (even in with ponies which we had to do cause he kept getting beat up). Even though things like grooming are different in horse herd hierarchy (the beta grooms the alpha) and in a horse herd that would be viewed as the horse asking being alpha, I know and understand there are horses who you can let do those things with no harm done.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

In regards to children being spoiled vs horses, I can say for a certainty that the children do not view themselves as spoiled either(up to a certain age). There isn't the awareness of "this is wrong but I will do it anyway", there is just "this is what I'm going to do and who is to stop me. If they try, I know what to do." They become much like the horse whose owner tiptoes around him and pampers him like he has no fault in the world. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

JCnGrace said:


> If they have itchy spots they come and stand beside me and give me the "look" that says, "Hey, can you help me out here?". My old gelding carries it a few steps further by lining up to me in a way that shows where he wants scratched (chest he lines up face to face, for his belly he turns sideways, and yes, turns his butt to me for a butt scratch...


Yes. Seems to me there are big differences between asking for something, insisting on it, and trying to take it regardless. My horse friends (that is, horses I know well) probably qualify as 'spoiled' in that they will ask for, and often get, a lot of scratches & treats, but all of them (except the new one, and she's learning fast) know better than to go beyond asking.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Would it be fair to say that a big part of what makes a spoiled horse spoiled (or whatever term you wish) is that the owner forgets that the horse is a horse. Loosing sight of the fact that a horse can seriously injure you (sometimes without meaning to) and putting on overly rosy glasses. As an example, they see the horse as a surrogate child, spouse or other human in a horse suit. Likewise, they think that behavior's that are clearly disrespectful the use of teeth or hooves against humans are the result of a human fault. The thought that "Pookie didn't mean that, I should not have done X. He does not like X."


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

It's ok SullysRider, I did think you were responding to me but I didn't take it as an attack. I understand your side of things and I do have a mare that likes to push her boundaries if you let her.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am sure that some horses _do_ know when they are behaving inappropriately. They might well do it with one person like barging to the stable door or pulling whilst being led, yet if I am around they behave as they should because they know I will not take it even of someone else is leading them.

The horse that is pushy, kicks, bites or barges is in control. Give a horse, dog or child control and they have the full responsibility of getting what they want. That is an unhappy burden for them!

When someone comes along and says, "Hey, you are not going to do that with me!" They might well fight to get their own way. When they realise that they cannot then they are only to willing to relinquish command. 

They live in the moment, not the past or the future.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

The learning process is basically the same in any species, starting at birth. It goes something like action, reaction, learning :

try new behaviour = a)no reaction, b)a bad reaction, c)encouragement

if a, they'll try again sometime. If b, they'll avoid repeating, and if c they'll likely repeat the action soon.

for example, a foal is nursing. it starts getting impatient and head butts its dam. The dam responds by nipping the foal, so the foal learns to be a little more patient.

or similarly with a human. The human is riding the horse at a walk and asks for a trot. The horse feels lazy and doesn't bother responding, so the rider quickly corrects the horse and gets him trotting. The horse learns there is no point arguing and trots on cue next time.

A spoiled horse doesn't get the needed correction. A good example is a horse that's pushy on the ground. It likely started with the horse standing a bit closer every session until it decided to push the handler with its shoulder. The handler doesn't respond. a session or two later the horse tries it again with a little more force, also with no response. Soon the horse is shoving the handler all over the place.

There is nothing more frustrating than never knowing where you stand, which is a big issue I see with people. Yes means yes, no, no. So many people will let the horse get away with things one day, then discipline them the next, then back to being lax the day after that. I see it often with people who's horses are their 'babies'. Like the above example of the pushy horse, the owner doesn't respond, until one day the owner decides it unacceptable, yells, smacks the horse and backs it halfway down the barn aisle. Yet the next time the horse cautiously tries to push the handler, it gets no response. You end up with a bratty, spoiled horse that's typically very confused and no longer takes discipline seriously.

If you don't want a spoiled horse(or child)set boundaries and stick to them EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. No exceptions.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

What creates a spoiled horse? The same thing that creates a spoiled wife or a spoiled kid. Loving them to much.

I plead guilty on all counts. 

Some times it works to my disadvantage, but I love spoiling my wife, kids, and horse.


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## Haileyyy (Mar 10, 2012)

To me there is a difference between spoiled and undisciplined/disrespectful. My horses are spoiled, they get treat and hugs and kisses. They all get loved on a lot by my family, but they are respectful. I don't have to worry about them being pushy or mouthy or just generally being a pain. If they do push the boundaries they are reprimanded. I put my foot down, say no, and thats the end of it.

My aunts horses are not spoiled at all but a VERY disrespectful and pushy. It's difficult to do anything with her horses because they are just so undisciplined. Just standing in the pen her horses are all over you, mouthy and nippy, and push you around. Her horses don't get nearly the same amount of affection and love my horses do but it's a 180 when being around them.

The same thing applies for others animals, like dogs and humans. My dog is super spoiled but she knows where the line is and not to cross it. She sleeps in my bed (more like HER bed with the amount of room she takes up), has more toys than she knows what to do with, and is showered with affection. But when I say no or come she listens. My sister and I are also spoiled, but disrespecting others is something we don't do. 

Being disrespectful and pushy does happen more in spoiled horses because those people tend to let things slide and the offenses snowball from there but there doesn't have to be a correlation between the two.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

How are they created?

By someone having a foal that wasn't disciplined correctly, or at all.

By someone feeding sweet feed and giving horse attitude.

By someone teaching cutesy tricks, or feeding treats.

By someone never riding their horse outside the confines of whatever area horse decides.

By someone getting off when horse acts up.

By someone backing off of feed bucket.

By someone babying horse, or speaking in soothing voice all the time.

By someone expecting a horse to be frightened of something.

By someone sneaking in and doing things that will ruin a horse.

By someone consistently halting what they were doing with a horse because the horse gets an attitude.

By someone moving timidly every time they are around the horse.

By someone being convinced the reason their horse is acting up is because it was abused/neglected/starved.

By someone wanting to bond/love/trust their horse without understanding horses do no operate that way.

By someone putting human emotions into horse's behavior and letting them get by with dangerous things.

By someone not staying in the leadership role.


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