# Trainer taking advantage or is this commonplace?



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Have you spoken to your instructor about your feelings? Ie that you're scared/nervous and frustrated? Riding greenies can definitely be trying and frustrating, but after a certain time you do want to be taught to handle more challenging mounts.. But that's not to say you should be doing so right now if you don't feel ready to..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Yeah, I always fought with that paying to train other people's horses too. I think what it comes down to is, which do you prefer? The boring "been there done that" lesson horse or do the ones with a little spice to them light you up?
I suppose ideally it would be nice if there were more really good school horses out there, but most barns usually have some less than ideal mounts for some riders. In my opinion, the biggest difference between riding a schoolmaster versus a green horse is the difference between getting by as a passenger versus actively riding/training the horse every step of the way. 

If these greener horses are making your nervous, just talk to you instructor and ask her to put you back on some more steady horses until you are ready for more of a challenge. I totally understand the 40's thing in terms of self preservation. You know better than anyone, including your trainer, if you're game for more horse.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Tell her you don't want to ride greenies because your scared and you don't feel like your progressing. There is a fine line between a challenge and inappropriate. For example I love using one pony at my barn who turns people who sit on horse who people who RIDE. She tests and acts like a pony but when you get it right she couldn't be a better lesson pony! Unless you have a solid WTC down there is NO reason for you to be riding naughty greenies. Especially 3 year olds as they are still physically immature and its extremely easy to give them bad habits..

Just a thought, my barn insurance won't cover lesson horses under 6. I guess they view that a safe age. Her insurance might be similar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Hmmmm you could see this as a blessing or not......I worked with a reining trainer and I was very very green, could ride, but not on a draped rein and I never had formal instruction.......every horse I was on was 5 and under...mostly 3 year olds.......and I did learn a whole lot!!!

Perhaps you could ask for walk/trot instruction on these younger horses for a few lessons then progress to the canter......perhaps they are very sensitive (as young ones are) or perhaps they need you to over-emphasize your cues (as is the case with a lot of youngsters)........

Perhaps your instructor is trying to get you on a variety of horses to expand your skills.......if she didn't trust you on her youngsters she wouldn't put you on them....and if she trusts her youngsters she wouldn't put you on them....it goes both ways......

Don't be fearful, see it as an opportunity........


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Kind of along with what Muppetgirl said, the first time you do successfully work a green horse through a "moment" and produce a beautiful result, it is one heck of a rush.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

I can definitely see the benefits of riding a green horse. But I think I'm going to tell her to keep me on older horses for now. I have definitely gotten past wanting a dead head. I can't stand a dead broke horse. I do like a horse with some spice. 

But I've found there is a difference between a seasoned horse who challenges you just outside your comfort zone and a young green horse who just flat out doesn't know what he's doing. I think the unknown is what I don't like. All I keep thinking is that as far as they know this horse won't bolt, buck or rear. But if he's only been under saddle for 6 months, how do I know he won't do this? 

I know what is tainting my view is that right now she's very short on help. Two girls quit and IMO there are way more horses than there are hands. So I feel more like I'm being used as a warm body to help train the horse. I could be totally wrong and I don't want to assume anything but I just get that feeling. I just wanted to see if it was common for green riders to be on green horses. 

I have to say, being on the younger horses has totally driven away any thoughts of buying a one when the time comes I do buy. I found some dream breeds of mine that of course, are much cheaper as colts and I thought, "Hmmm maybe I can afford that Gypsy Vanner or Lippizan if I buy one young and then I'll help break it in and we'll learn together! Weeeee! This will be fun!" lol. so much for that idea! So I guess it IS a good thing she put me on the young horses. Shattered that dream like a dropped mirror! LOL

People aren't kidding when they recommend an older horse as a first horse. There is such a difference between a horse that knows the ropes, isn't a dead head, but one that knows what it's doing and knows how to focus on my cues versus one that is looking all over the place and has total attention deficit disorder. It's a bit unnerving for this old bird. 

I think I'll be honest with her. I was talking to a friend recently that I knew in high school. She used to a be a pretty darn good rider. She had a bad fall in her 20s and hasn't been on a horse since. She won't even get on a old broke horse these days. She's done with horses. It breaks my heart hearing that. I don't want that to be me. As much as I want to advance, I need to find that balance between moving outside my comfort zone but stopping short of just flat out being scared, know what I mean?

Thank you all for answering my question though. I really do like my trainer and I started wondering if she really thought she was helping me advance or she was inadvertently putting me harm's way because she's too short on help to break in all of these horses she bought last year. I'm glad to know it's at least common for greenies to ride greenies even if it's not for me.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

tell her you will be glad to help her train her horses, however you wont be paying her for the privilege.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Sounds like a good decision. Your concerns are well thought out and you know your limitations. That all being said, don't discount all young horses. My first horse was a just turning 5 OTTB. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body, learns very quickly and is my best buddy. I'll take a young one with a good mind over an older already screwed up one any day.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

It is fine to ride a green horse if you are confident enough to do so; however, the money is flowing the wrong direction. If you are training a horse, you should be getting paid. It sounds like your trainer is taking money from clients to train their horses and then letting you pay her for the privilege of doing the work. I would call her hand on this one.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Oooh that is very dishonest. I would talk to her about it and if she gives you an excuse or continues putting you on unsuitable horse's I'd tell her where to go and move on to a place that cares more about your well being than where you are now. Horses are dangerous enough if you are being safe!

There is a saying - green and green equals black and blue. You are correct in that you need to be riding dependable horses who know what they are doing so that you can learn! While it might be "common" for some people - to me it is a huuuuge red flag!! Amateurs in general (ie people who ride for fun) should never be put on anything green unless they are accomplished enough to really ride it. I recently watched a girl on a young horse get bucked off and the horse tried to double barrel her on the way down. The horse bucked because the girl tensed up and that's it. I always think that a rider on a horse should be able to handle anything that horse does. If they can't, then they need to be put on a different horse. There is being challenged, and then there is being plain stupid. Don't let yourself get lumped in the latter category.

I find far more often than not, new riders or new horse people have way more common sense than supposedly seasoned horse people. Just because those of us who have been in the business for a while see stupidity as common place does not make it acceptable. OP, please trust your gut and make a change before you get gravely injured!


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

I absolutely agree with Anebel. I'm also thinking about the training of the horses. Their training is going to severely suffer in the hands of a rider who is not yet experienced enough to train. They are likely to wind up with bad habits that will have to be fixed down the road.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You are paying for lessons on a safe horse, no? Tell her you don't feel safe on the horses she is putting you on and she has nothing suitable, you will be going someplace that does. Remember, you are the one paying her.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Putting you on a green horse does not make much sense to me unless you know what a broke, trained horse feels like.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Putting you on a green horse does not make much sense to me unless you know what a broke, trained horse feels like.


I think this is what happened with me....I rode all the showing horses first for a long time then 'graduated' to the youngsters.....and yes I did notice a big difference in them! It felt like I went from an automatic transmission to a stick shift!!!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm thinking that she's trying to bump you out of your comfort zone so that you can progress. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like it's working. After 2 years of lessons, I would expect you to be able to sit a canter more than for just a few strides. I would address 2 things at your next lesson. #1, telling her you aren't comfortable on the newer, greener horses and that you want to go back to your comfort zone and #2, I would talk to her about what is holding you back from being able to sit a canter. Is it fear? Stiffness? Lack of rythm? What is her opinion? Maybe ask for some lessons on a lunge line so that all you have to concentrate on is the motion and staying with it. 

There's no shame in wanting to be back on a good old Steady Eddy. As we progress in our horse lives, especially if we start out as kids, I think we start with the Dead Head that you can do anything to, then progress to Steady Eddy, then up to maybe a little hotter, spicier horse that challenges us to improve, to the greenies for the adrenaline and then as we get older and figure out we're mortal, we come back to the Steady Eddies. They're some pretty darn good horses!


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Joe I always love your to the point comments! :lol:

Myboypuck That's true. I wouldn't ever rule out a horse for being too young if he/she was the right horse for me. I know some young horses that are old souls. And that is true about an older horse with bad habits being worse. These horses are just not for me. They are pretty typical young horses.

Tessa that is something else I thought of when riding. Am I screwing up this horse? I know I have quiet hands and I'm pretty good with using the least amount of leg as possible, but still. I hate to think this horse is learning the wrong things because of me.





> I find far more often than not, new riders or new horse people have way more common sense than supposedly seasoned horse people. Just because those of us who have been in the business for a while see stupidity as common place does not make it acceptable.


this made me lol, but I see what you mean. I read this board so much and I have an idea of how things are supposed to be. Then when you see something in real life that doesn't seem very safe, it's like :?

The other thing that bothered me was she didn't tell me the horse was young. She just told me I'd be riding this horse today. I got on and the horse was all over the place. It made me feel like it was my first day in the saddle. I asked what is going on and then she told me that the horse is only 3 and she's still just learning. I think my face was pretty much :shock:
This happened the next two lessons with different green horses. I like her so much. And I can see how a trainer would think, "Hmmm give a lesson, give this horse some wet blankets = two birds, one stone and all that." Just not for me. 25 years ago I would have had a blast. Not now.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Muppetgirl said:


> I think this is what happened with me....I rode all the showing horses first for a long time then 'graduated' to the youngsters.....and yes I did notice a big difference in them! It felt like I went from an automatic transmission to a stick shift!!!


LOL....But because you rode the broke/showing horses you knew what they felt like and that gave you something to work towards with your colts.
I started out on the other end, I could start a colt and get him going but after a certain point I didn't know what to do with them or knew what "right" felt like. (I am still like that, but at least it is pushing farther ahead..tee hehehe!)

It is a mixed bag for sure. You can't have one without the other I suppose, eventually it is beneficial to learn both ends.


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## Paintlover1965 (May 22, 2009)

I think you're right to question your trainer's decision to have you ride her green horses. You need to learn the basics on a well trained school horse so you can gain knowledge and skill before you can ride a less predictable less schooled horses. There's plenty of time to ride green horses in the future if you so choose to.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Not to come across rude, but sounds like your instructor is not doing a good job. Not being able to canter after couple years of lessons is a big red flag that something is not quite right about say lessons (unless you have some physical issue that holds you back). Also no, it's NOT OK to put a student who is not very advanced on untrained green horse. I've never seen it around with exception of one (very crappy) place. Frankly, if I'd be you I'd look for a different place to take lessons...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I agree with *Val* - after two years you should be a lot further ahead than you are even just riding once a week so your instructor would fail for me just on that count
All I see happening is you losing your confidence here
There is a lot to be said for encouraging people to push themselves as its how we progress but at the same time we ride for pleasure and if you are content and happy with where you are and no ambitions to do anything greater than why allow yourself to be pushed at all?
My children learnt to ride on safe ponies that did as they were asked the instant the request was made but unless you asked correctly they did nothing and they then moved onto the slightly more challenging ones that needed a little more 'asking' at times as they had it in them to say ' 'cant be bothered today' - but that is a big difference between a green horse that doesnt even understand the 'ask' in the first place
Find a new instructor/trainer.


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## cpr saves (Dec 5, 2012)

Confidence is a very fragile thing. It is so important to get it and keep it. Once it's lost, it is extremely difficult to get it back. Riding a green horse is not fair to either of you. 

It takes a lot of experience to become very clear and consistent with how and what you are asking of the horse. For a young horse to receive inconsistent cues is nothing but frustrating for them and will create a mess. 

If you take a serious fall, you may be physically injured and worse yet, not ever want to ride again. Or just always be anxious about taking another tumble, which will have a negative result in all your future rides.

You're right to insist on riding more experienced horses until you are completely comfortable and ready to move on to more challenges. Trust your instincts and stick to your guns. There are other instructors out there if this one is not willing to respect your wishes.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

I know I feel like I should be further along now. I've been with this trainer for a year. Before that I lived in another state and was with a different trainer. So she's not totally to blame but I know I could be further along now under different circumstances.

I know it's important to be able to ride different horses. But, I feel like I've made my best strides in riding a couple of seasoned horses there. She has put me on a different horse each week and, for lack of a better metaphor, it's like driving a new car each week. I feel like I'm just getting to know the horses buttons and then the lesson is over. Then next week it's a new horse. I don't want to be the person who can only ride one horse, but I do feel like I need some security. There are two horses there that give me the best lesson and I feel like I actually progress. I'm going to ask for one of them.

I do think of finding another barn sometimes. This one is kind of an all around barn, no real discipline. Mostly trail riders. There's just a lot of things I see that people do there that most people on this forum agree are not a good idea. If I listed the stuff here your head would spin. I'm talking people smoking in the barn when it's clearly bothering the horses, not to mention hay all around! Little kids (6-7 years old) going out on trail rides with no helmets on these 3 year old green horses. Even people I know who never wear a helmet said they wouldn't dream of letting kids ride on their farm without one. I sometimes feel like they are whistling past the graveyard that nothing bad has happened yet. Yet I like the people there and my trainer so much. But yeah, might be time to go barn shopping. :-(


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think it might!!!
I dont know a huge amount about US riding schools, we have one near us where helmets are a rule, no one is allowed on a horse without one but I did spend a lot of time one winter a few years ago at a breeding/show/boarding barn where I rode a horse that someone was selling and wanted exercising and it worked for me as my horse was lame and they had an indoor. They gave lessons there and had no helmet rules at all
In the UK all lesson horses have to suitable for the job, you do get ones that present more of a challenge for experienced riders but they still have to be safe - no green horses. Not fair to the horse or the rider
I would have thought that their insurance company would be concerened with their attitude - so I wonder if they even have good coverage?
Have you been asked to sign a waiver at all?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

In Georgia, there is a law that is supposed to relieve barn owners of liability if people are injured while riding there. I seriously doubt that the law would stand up to protect people against deliberate negligence such as allowing small children to ride without helmets or putting green riders on untrained horses. If you BO doesn't care about little kids, chance are, they don't care about you. It is probably not deliberate malice; more a case of not truly understanding the risks.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm not gonna pick on the no helmet business, out here in OK we never wear them and I have never seen a barn or show that requires them unless it's in hunter or dressage classes. The helmet is the exception not the rule out here, so negligence isn't necessarily going to fly. We also have the "inherent risk law" here and sign waivers on top of that being posted. If a parent wanted the helmet on their kid, it would be up to them to put it on before the lesson or ride, if the trainer/barn didn't require them. 

Smoking is a huge pet peeve of mine, I make people go out into the middle of the street in front of the property, I don't allow it ANYWHERE on my place. And that includes casual visitors. 

Since the trainer is switching up horses on you, I really do think she's trying to find one that makes you progress and come along. I think she's just not reading you right and you need to tell her you're not ready for that. The rider has to be a little responsible for some communication and by going along like this for a year, she's probably thinking you're liking it. 

Trainers are not Gods and not omnipotent and all knowing. Too many people say, "Well, my trainer says I.........." or "I have to ask my trainer........." instead of taking charge of their own learning program. When I go to a trainer I spell out exactly what I need (I've recently started showing at stock seat shows rather than Arab shows, I need to learn the rules and different styles of riding) and what I want (I want to ride at the upper level shows like AQHA World) and my time frame (I can only afford 6 months of training for me & my horse). That tells the trainer just how hard to push and how long he can push me and in what direction. If at any point, I don't agree with what he's doing or don't understand what he's having me do, I stop dead in the water and I start asking questions until everything is clear. I don't know what board & training is out in VA but here in OK it costs me around $500-1000/month depending on what kind of trainer I'm at. No way do I shell out that kind of money every month and not get what I'm after. 

It may be time for a new barn but first, since you say you're over all happy, I'd sit down with the trainer and talk to her about your fears, expectations, wants and needs. Besides asking for a new, Steady Eddy horse, set some goals. She is making money by the lesson, if all you do is go out and trot and resist working the canter, she'll let you for the next 50 years, it pays the same. If YOU want to progress then you need to say, "I want to be comfortable at the canter/lope by June 2013. I would like you to really work me on that, on a lunge line if need be, until I can feel the rhythm and get with the motion so that I don't lose my seat after a few strides every time.". Spell out what you want, when you want it and how you want to get there. That lets her know how hard/fast to push and what you're comfortable accepting from her.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Thank you for all of the tips! I feel so much better getting advice from you all.

Some other things I should note. It's not just different horses, it's also switching between gaited and non-gaited. I had been going back and forth between the two and for a couple of months it was nice being able to try both out. Then I realized that since I want to do mostly ring work, I really prefer non-gaited. Just give me a good older quarter horse and I'm happy. So she kept me on non-gaited horses but a different one each week. Then this past few weeks she's had me on green horses. 
Also she's not the only person who trains. She has this other person train us as well. This girl knows a lot about horses and is a heck of a rider, but not much of a trainer. I take my lesson with 3 other people so there's 4 of us just riding all over the place. Two of the people are on their own horse. The other woman, like me, doesn't own yet. She doesnt' like the green horses either, but she's so soft spoken I don't think she's going to say anything. 

Overall it's just too much of a mish-mosh for me between alternating trainers, alternating gaited and non and alternating seasoned horses between green horses. I just feel like I can't find my groove. I am going to definitely talk to my trainer and let her know what I want to do for now. It's possible she thinks I'm enjoying all of this switching up but I'm not.

I'll admit that I'm not a helmet nut myself. I wear one myself but I don't think anything of seeing other adults without one. But I have to admit I cringe when I see these little kids who have barely ridden or never ridden going out on trail rides with these green horses. Over the summer the barn was doing birthday party trail rides which is a great idea but many of these kids had never been on a horse. I'd see them on these green horses heading out and I always held my breath until they got back. The trails have tons of tree roots and large rocks. One crazy turkey flying out and there's no way the kids would know how to calm their horse. 
The one girl who did trail rides said she took a bunch of 12-13 year old girls out on the trails. She turned around and none of them had their hands on the reins. They were all texting and taking pictures of each other with their phones. 

Sorry for rambling, but when I tell people I ride, so many times I'll get a lecture on how dangerous horses are, blah blah. There is an article from a few years back circling around that says horses are more dangerous than motorcycles because of the rider to injury ratio. But I see things like what happens at this barn and I honestly am surprised we don't hear of more injuries and even deaths. 

I want to trust my trainer I can ride a green horse and I think, "Well if this was really dangerous, she wouldn't put me on them." But then I look at the other things they do there and I'm thinking safety is not that big of a concern.
Oh boy. My lesson is Saturday. I'm going to get there early so I can talk to her. I'll make it short and very sweet. I think she'll understand.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

In any relationship, you have to communicate. People cannot read your mind. Hopefully you will have a happy story to tell us after your next lesson.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I hope you can sort something out but the more you describe this place the more I think it doesnt sound like a serious riding stables where you will really learn anything valuable - kids texting etc - obviously not taking things seriously, they might as well be at home on the sofa doing that. I like to relax on a horse - actually its essentail but you never take your eye off the game no matter how experienced you are and if I was escorting a ride no way would I allow them to do that. 
Good luck. hope you can sort something


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Celeste said:


> In any relationship, you have to communicate. People cannot read your mind. Hopefully you will have a happy story to tell us after your next lesson.



I agree. I really thought I was clear with what I wanted. Last spring I told her I really wanted to stick to English saddle and do ring work with the non-gaited horses. Then every so often she'd have a gaited horse for me to ride and I went along with it. Then I did tell her I felt much more comfortable using either of the schoolies there because I really want to work on my canter. But she said I can work on the canter with the green horses. But I can barely get them trot. I think this is one of these cases where the trainer is thinking, she knows what I need better than I do. I'm sure many times that is true. I really did try. I do need to remind her again. You're right.


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## Luvs JRT (Jan 3, 2012)

Oh my god, I am sitting here trembling I am so angry and worried for you. 
First I'm able to post right now middle of a week day - because I'm on week 2 of recovery from a young green 4 year old buck. I have 2 more weeks off of work and trying to heal from this fall. And I have over 30 years of riding experience and this was my own horse.

I am so livid that someone that is calling themselves a coach/trainer is putting a person that cannot feel comfortable in a canter on a school lesson horse is putting you on a green baby - AND to top it off asking you to canter them.

I understand you like this coach/trainer (and trust me I am using this word loosely!) BUT put this all into perspective. Do you have children? Would you put your 10 year old child or 10 year old relative in the same situation that she is putting you into. I'm not calling you a child, but if it isn't safe for a child, then it isn't safe for a green rider.

Your trainer/coach is using you, and I wonder how those green horse owners would feel knowing that someone who is green is breaking them? I know I would be livid - again I'm not doubting your capabilities, but you were exactly right on when you ask what bad habits are you letting these babies get away with or things that you might be asking for the wrong way. And its no fault of yours you don't know any better. But when I put a horse out to a trainer - i'm expecting a trainer to train with the correct tools. If all I'm looking for is to get the buck and bolt out of my baby, then he goes off to a cowboy that is going to stick the buck, so the horse doesn't learn it just needs to buck to get me off.

Your the same age as I am, and we don't bounce like we did before. This was my own horse, and the second time we've had "issues" and I will tell you now my confidence is gone. Over 30 years of horse passion and experience - and it took one fall to put me in a position that I might just sell him and wipe my hands of horses period. Bruises and broken bones heal - confidence and trust takes a much longer time IF it does heal. 

The fact that the other issues about the barn, smoking, no helmets (which by the way I was wearing and for the second time in my 30 years - it saved my life!) nothing about this barn sounds professional or somewhere I would want to risk my life at. Yes I know you can get hit by a car tomorrow walking down the street. But through out life we take calculated risks... this barn sounds like the calculations are not adding up.

Please for the sake of your own body and mind.... either demand you get the horse you want, something safe - or find another barn. And please print off this forum thread and show it to the other greenie thats too quiet to say anything.


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

First of all--being in your 40's (as I am), my guess is that you have had enough "life experience" to REALLY TRUST YOUR GUT. As an RN of 15+years, and being nearly 40 myself, I'VE LEARNED I have EXCELLENT RESULTS regarding patient safety when I listen to that "little voice" telling me something IS NOT RIGHT. 

As a younger RN, I would ignore that "voice" & thankfully never had any detrimental outcomes but I sure came close once or twice and I learned FAST NEVER ignore my gut again for anything. My guess is you know what is happening with this trainer (but you LIKE HER A whole lot, so you don't WANT YOUR GUT to be RIGHT ...)...Sucks friend, but, I'm guessing you are right on with her. 

She is actually ALSO probably NOT FULLY ADMITTING TO HER SELF that she's doing "double duty" with you & your lessons while she's short 2 trainers. Kind of saying to herself, "Getting Heelsdown on greenies will help HER PROGRESS! (Aaaand it won't HUUUURT me to get an extra horse at least WORKED, even if not trained "properly" today...he won't be in his stall all day!").

You think that could be possible? This was my overwhelming impression reading this thread. Another thing is that I wanted to share how things go with my trainer as possibly a semi-guide you could follow??

I ride one of three horses...Fancy is "good old reliable horse"...not a DEAD HEAD BY ANY STRETCH; but if you ASK, (correctly) she delivers! ANYTHING NEW I start is done for a minimum of 2 lessons on Fancy...we then decide if I should work with Fancy longer to continue, say, gaining cuing smoothness OR does Holly feel I LOOK READY TO PROGRESS to her intermediate level horse, Giselle. If SHE FEELS I'm ready, the next question is whether I FEEL CONFIDENT after 2 lessons on Fancy with the "new thing" (recently canter and asking for correct lead) then TOGETHER WE MAKE THE DECISION to move up to Giselle. 

I'll then ride Giselle for a minimum of 2 lessons, & the same cycle repeats (Giselle is very much like Fancy...if you ASK CORRECTLY SHE WILL DELIVER, BUT, her challenge is she is about TWICE AS FORWARD AS FANCY!) 

Finally, once we're BOTH COMFORTABLE with my level of balance/confidence on Giselle, I can move up to my pretty heart horse, Victory! She is extremely talented and CAN be cued 100% off of seat/leg. She'd an advanced dressage horse & the only benefit to riding her OVER GISELLE (they're full sisters, just an FYI!) is that I HAVE TO BE TOTALLY BALANCED in the saddle @ EVERY GAIT, or she becomes frustrated and confused and Holly WON'T allow me to ride her other than in the upper round pen, letting her stretch out, just get some MOVEMENT/fun time out of her stall, to do basic walk/trot/canter maneuvers and then take her out on the trail...this gives Victory a nice break from the rigours of her "show training" & it's positive to change things up a bit in her world!

Anyhow, these are the forward/back training methods Holly uses with me; & they WORK WELL for both of us I feel. Perhaps, with the variety of horses your trainer has, you two could isolate a "rotation" of three for you to ride with each new "concept"; moving back & forth with increased skill/new skill...does that make sense at all? I really hope so. 

You obviously WANT A GREAT OUTCOME AND are highly in touch with what YOU NEED, which is a teriffic start. I truly hope your trainer will listen & take in what you share with her re: your needs!

Very BEST to you!! B2H ;0)


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Thank you ladies both so much for your advice. Luvs, I'm so sorry that happened to you! I hope you don't leave the horse world after being a part of it for so long. I can see how it would make you want to though. I really hope you feel better soon. 

I have a tendency to worry too much about things but I'm glad that in this case, my concerns are valid. I'm staying off the greenies. I have come to really appreciate all of the hard work that goes into making a horse a solid mount. Thank you to all of you people who break in these young guys making them honest horses for people like me.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Heelsdown said:


> Thank you ladies both so much for your advice. Luvs, I'm so sorry that happened to you! I hope you don't leave the horse world after being a part of it for so long. I can see how it would make you want to though. I really hope you feel better soon.
> 
> I have a tendency to worry too much about things but I'm glad that in this case, my concerns are valid. I'm staying off the greenies. I have come to really appreciate all of the hard work that goes into making a horse a solid mount. Thank you to all of you people who break in these young guys making them honest horses for people like me.


Let us know how things go. I'm always curious to see how trainers take to being questioned or told that what they're doing isn't meeting a student's needs.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I think everything I'm thinking has already been said, but I'll chime in and agree- it is not normal or acceptable to put a green rider on a green horse. Are these green horses hers, or are they client's horses that she's being paid to train? I'm betting it's the latter, and she's double dipping- she's getting paid for each 'training ride' that you're putting on the horse and then you're paying her for the privilege of doing so. The clients were probably told their horses would be used in lessons, but with advanced riders.

There's a wide range between green broke and push-button, and not everyone aspires to riding the "young crazy things." There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to stay on sane, sensible horses who have more training than you do. Moving to a more advanced horse doesn't mean moving to a horse with no training or other issues, it means moving up to a horse who is capable of responding correctly to your cues and allowing you to continue progressing in whatever discipline(s) interest you.

If those green horses you've been riding are clients' horses there for training, I'd immediately start looking for somewhere else to ride: she's cheating those clients as well as you. If they're her horses, then maybe try having a chat with her about your desires and goals and see if things change. At this point you need to be working on becoming confident at W/T/C, and if you're riding a different greenie each week it will take a LONG time to get to that point.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Thank you Verona. I agree, 

Well, I went to my lesson SAturday. Trainer wanted to put me on this one green horse I'd ridden before. I said I really didn't feel comfortable and I felt like riding the greenies is causing me to plateau in my riding. She insisted that they've worked with this horse recently and she's much better than before. 
So I agreed and figured let me look like I'm trying to oblige and if it doesn't work, then I can say I really tried. Well, the horse was better, yes. She wasn't quite as all over the place with a scared look in her eye. But still, she's a young green horse.
Every time I'd start to transition from walk to trot she was all over the place. I ended up being able to get her to trot by the end but it took a lot of effort on my part. She kept wanting to stop or pull me to the middle. My trainer had to keep going behind the horse and smacking her butt trying to get her to move. Then the horse would take off in a jerky way and then stop again. There's a difference in riding when you are making your horse move versus someone else doing it. I didn't care for my trainer smacking her to make her move. The point is for the rider to do it, no? But when it was over, yes I learned something in my lesson about riding a green horse. 

But to me, my lesson isn't about learning just anything. I want to learn how to be a better rider myself. At this stage I don't care to learn how to keep a green horse moving around the ring. I can go the rest of my life and never sit on a green horse and I'd be just fine. That is what I had to keep reminding myself of. I don't have to do any of this. I don't have to even ride at all. If the only riding I ever do in my life is on a steady, Eddy seasoned horse, then that is okay! I'm only in this for pleasure reasons. I'm not looking to do any kind of showing or jumping. I just want to ride for pleasure. So I don't have to know how to ride all kinds of horses, regardless of training or age. It's kind of refreshing knowing that. 

Anyway, after the lesson I told my trainer that while it was a good learning experience, I'm really anxious to learn the canter. She said that we could try cantering on this horse next week. I told her that I really wanted one of the older schoolies to canter on. I just don't feel safe nor capable of teaching this horse at the same time I'm teaching myself. 
If she wanted me to come play on her horses and give them saddle time for free, I'd be happy to do it but for $50 an hour, I want a lesson on a lesson horse. 

So she still seemed unconvinced but I think she's willing to listen to me. To answer someone's question about the horses, two of the greenies belong to people and they are there for training. Four of them belong to the barn owner and they are right now for sale on her web site. She bought them from a farm last year for resale but IMO she took on too many young horses at once considering she's the only full time person there among a plethora of on and off high school and college students. Then there are a couple other young horses and I honestly don't know who they belong to. 
Poor things. They are sweet but I just don't care for riding them. 

Thank you all for your input and for reading all of my drivel! I really appreciate the advice!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

$50 an hour?!?! To ride a green horse??

Honestly if you want to pay to ride other people's training projects you can come to my barn I'm sure they would let you only pay $20 lol! Riders who ride green horses CHARGE the owners $30-60 per hour, not pay it!!

IMO if even after expressing your concerns and your coach is not willing to put you on a broke horse I would be hightailing it out of there!! And only two being client horses still does not make it OK to be putting students on them!!


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

Heelsdown...I'm not in any position to tell you what to do with your money/time/life/anything...but FWIW; I would move to a new trainer at a new barn ASAP. Period. You've given it more than "that good, college try"! You can feel very assured that you are doing what any of us newer/returning riders would do for certain.

My two pennies...Very best of luck to you!! 

B2H


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

OP, you clearly have more common sense than that trainer.

It's been said over and over, but green riders should not be riding three-year-olds, no matter how calm the three-year-olds may seem. 

You want to learn to sit the lope, and you're right in wanting a seasoned horse to do that. It's hard to know exactly how a green horse is going to react when it first starts loping. It might crowhop, it might build up speed quickly. The horse doesn't know how it's supposed to act when loping, and needs an advanced rider to teach it what to do and maintain control. 

I don't even know you, but I'm worried about you for that next lesson (along with the other beginner in your barn). Please, listen to your gut and don't let that trainer talk you into another green horse! You should be advancing slowly to slightly livelier, but still seasoned, horses so you can focus on what you need to learn without worrying about your safety or the young horse's training.

It blows my mind that they're putting kids with little experience (helmets or not) on green horses. **** that's crazy!

Luvs, sorry to hear about your accident.

That's all.


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

Okay, I'm just going to add one more thing. 

I think you should think about getting lessons elsewhere because your instructor clearly doesn't have your safety, or other people's safety, in mind. 

Now, even if you stop riding green horses, she might compromise your safety in less obvious ways that you might not pick up on. There are so many ways horses can inadvertently hurt you, and it's really important to have someone who has a good handle on safety teaching you.

I know there are probably other factors to consider before switching places, but I'm just throwing this out there as something to think about.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm going to unsubscribe to this thread. I don't want to read about the train wreck that's fixin' to happen. My vote for finding another trainer also.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Ladies thank you so much for being concerned. I'm so glad to have someone validating my feelings. I definitely will not be getting the green horses again. I just won't. She said that next week I'll ride one of the schoolies. I'm thinking she's going to give me a few rides on them and then try to get me back on the green horses. But I decided that I won't do it. 

I did look around my area for another barn but they are all hunter jumper barns. It's so hard to find a barn that just does pleasure riding lessons. And it sucks because I made so many friends at this barn. Lots of women my age, few of us great riders, just looking to be around horses and have fun. The environment is more casual. Where the one H/J barn where I used to live was a much younger crowd and more competitive. So I like the environment here. I was thinking that maybe if I bought a horse and I was only riding my horse, then I could continue taking lessons. I'm getting to the point where I'm wanting to own a horse anyway.

but that's an excellent point about how many other things are going on that can put me in danger as well. This sucks. It's a shame because there are so many good things here at this place, but so many WTF? things too. Ugh.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If she sees the money about to walk off, she probably will decide that she is going to keep you on safe horses. Be firm and I bet that she backs off. Just say no if she insists. Tell her that you will take your money somewhere else. She'll come around.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Heelsdown. Put it in language she will understand - money. Let her know that should you get hurt, being as you are 40, it may take longer to recover, during which time you won't be having lessons. If the fall shatters your courage then you will definitely no longer be riding any horse she offers. That she will understand. If she insists, turn your back and walk away. Fear has a way of expanding and until it becomes unsurmountable. Listen to the little voice inside of you - it's been yelling at you that you're not ready.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

Heelsdown said:


> Ladies thank you so much for being concerned. I'm so glad to have someone validating my feelings. I definitely will not be getting the green horses again. I just won't. She said that next week I'll ride one of the schoolies. I'm thinking she's going to give me a few rides on them and then try to get me back on the green horses. But I decided that I won't do it.
> 
> I did look around my area for another barn but they are all hunter jumper barns. It's so hard to find a barn that just does pleasure riding lessons. And it sucks because I made so many friends at this barn. Lots of women my age, few of us great riders, just looking to be around horses and have fun. The environment is more casual. Where the one H/J barn where I used to live was a much younger crowd and more competitive. So I like the environment here. I was thinking that maybe if I bought a horse and I was only riding my horse, then I could continue taking lessons. I'm getting to the point where I'm wanting to own a horse anyway.
> 
> but that's an excellent point about how many other things are going on that can put me in danger as well. This sucks. It's a shame because there are so many good things here at this place, but so many WTF? things too. Ugh.


Do you have a friend that owns a horse that would be suitable for you? What if you were to pay for a partial lease on a friends horse? You'd also be helping a friend with their horse expenses.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The lease horse idea might be a good option for you actually
I wish you could find some better instruction because even aside from the green horse thing she doesnt seem to have progressed you very far in the time you've been riding there


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

I definitely agree with that, Jaydee. If you have been riding for a year, I feel, under good instruction on a good lesson horse, that most riders will be able to say they are comfortable with their lope.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Tessa unfortunately all of the horse people I know are at the barn. We've moved here a year ago and the barn is where I met all of my horse friends. I suppose I could ask one of them. There are only a couple of horses that would work out with though because many of the women own gaited horses and I want to learn on a non-gaited horse. That would be a great deal to work out if I could though. 

I truly believe that if I was able to stick with one or two seasoned horses that my lope would be at least decent by now. There's just too much switching around for me. She said she was going to be putting me on a different horse each week and that is exactly what I've been doing. Some variety is good. Too much variety and I cannot make any progress. 
Then there's the fact that this is an outdoor arena so if it's raining icy or muddy on the day of my lesson, I don't get to ride. So I'm really not even getting there every week. More like 3 times a month, some months only two. That's what 3 hours a month? On a different horse each time? No wonder I'm not getting any where. 

I need to really think about what I'm going to do. For this next month at least, I'm going to only ride the schoolies. I'll just flat out refuse the young horses, so don't worry about that.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

So let me get this straight. You are paying $50 per GROUP lesson, one hour a week. During this lesson, your are riding barely broke 3 year olds and spend much of that time just trying to get the horse to move.

You have been riding for 2 years - with this trainer for 1, and you have not progressed beyond the inital stages of learning the canter - asking for it and sitting a few strides.

To be blunt, you need to really evaluate why you like this person as a both a trainer and a human being, because she is completely taking advantage. I live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and what you are paying is not unusual for a PRIVATE lesson with an accomplished trainer and appropriate horse here. You should have progressed past the level you are at now in a month or two, not two YEARS. 

I would expect a rider with two years of weekly lessons to be comfortable at all three gaits, able to use the arena effectively (riding into the corners, correct circles etc) and safely around other riders, and competent with basic lateral work. I would expect them to be balanced, able to ride all three gaits without stirrups, able to ride without the reins and without reins and stirrups on a lunge line, and overall able to use their legs, seat, and hands effectively and independently. They should be able to post on the correct diagonal, ask for the correct bend and be able to apply that to getting the correct lead at the canter. They should be able to do a simple lead change across the diagonal and working on flying changes, and beginning work on collection and extension, at least able to shorten the stride on the short ends of the arena and lengthen the stride along the long sides. I would also expect a rider at that level to be able to handle basic behavioural issues under saddle - how to respond to a sudden spook, sit and correct a minor buck, and getting a horse moving and focused. They may be able to school sour lesson horses without issue. They may have competed at small shows by this point if that is what interests them.

I would also expect them to be fairly advanced with horses on the ground - they should be able to tack up without help and be able to saddle and bridle a difficult horse (*difficult*, as in a horse that simply tests them, not a dangerous horse). They should be able to identify various pieces of tack and understand their mechanics. They should understand basic horse care - feeding, how much forage is needed, types of hay and what bad hay looks like compared to good hay, the role of concentrates in a horse's diet and the options available; first aid, what to do with a small cut, large cut, vital signs, symptoms of colic, and how to identify lameness; maintenance, what you use a vet for, what vaccinations are common, the basics of worming, dealing with a farrier and a very basic grasp of hoof care. Finally, they should be able to handle most behavioural issues on the ground outside of what the experienced would consider dangerous - they should be at a level where a well behaved horse will not develop bad habits from their handling, and they can gain respect and correct rude behaviour.

That sounds like a lot, it is. For 2 years and approximately 104 lessons and $5000+ you should know and be capable of a lot. If all you want to do is ride casually, you should be capable of it by now without issue.

Your trainer may be friendly towards you, but they are not your friend. I would never *EVER* consider putting a rider at your skill level on a green horse, let alone a barely broken in 3 year old. That is something that even challenges my level of experience, and I've been riding for 20 years! What she is charging you for lessons is COMPLETELY inappropriate, and only tells me that she is deliberately screwing you. Even if she follows your request and puts you on one of her "seasoned" horses from now on, I question that horse's level of training and I question her competence. She doesn't deserve your business.

Talk to the hunter/jumper barns and see if they offer lessons on a leased horse or if they can point you in the right direction. Go to local shows and talk to the trainers there, ask around and make connections. Go to feedstores, equine vets, talk to farriers, and join local clubs. Keep an eye out for clinics and other events that might be a fair distance away and consider attending at least one per year, as they are a great place to network. On top of that, I'm sure there are several members on this forum from Virginia who can provide you with some options as well.

Best of luck!


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

Very good points Gremmy. This whole switching horses every week business is so counterproductive to your learning! I don't switch a student to a new horse until they have 'graduated' to a more advanced horse. More advanced means slightly more sensitive, slightly more forward, still a sane and experienced horse! I don't expect to advance very much on a student's first day with a new horse because I feel they need time to get to know one another. A less advanced student takes a lot more time to get the 'feel' of a new horse. I may take 2 or 3 lessons to find the perfect 'next' horse, but once we find that horse I keep them on it for months until they have accomplished the goals I have planned for them. Of course, sometimes the student's regular horse is not available, and in that case I may do a lunge lesson so they can still work on themselves without having to learn a new horse. Switching horses every week and for weekly lessons? I don't know how she expects you to advance your skills.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Tessa, barely advancing is an old coaching trick. It's done to keep the student hooked and paying for a long time.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Thank you for your detailed post! I copied this so I could use it to check my progress of where I should be right now. 



Gremmy said:


> So let me get this straight. You are paying $50 per GROUP lesson, one hour a week. During this lesson, your are riding barely broke 3 year olds and spend much of that time just trying to get the horse to move.


Sounds pretty bad when put this way but yeah that's basically it. The barn I was at the first year was in CT and my trainer was fantastic. My riding progressed really well the first year. Now not so much.




> I would expect a rider with two years of weekly lessons to be comfortable at all three gaits,


 Not yet



> able to use the arena effectively (riding into the corners, correct circles etc) and safely around other riders, and competent with basic lateral work.


 I'm pretty good with all of this. Of course always room for improvement.



> I would expect them to be balanced, able to ride all three gaits without stirrups,


 Can walk without stirrups but that's it. 



> able to ride without the reins and without reins and stirrups on a lunge line,


 did this at the other barn but only at a trot.



> and overall able to use their legs, seat, and hands effectively and independently.


 I'm pretty good with this too but honestly I think that comes from doing hours and hours of reading forums and watching youtube videos. 


> They should be able to post on the correct diagonal,


 This I can do.


> ask for the correct bend and be able to apply that to getting the correct lead at the canter.


 nope not at all. I wouldn't have the first clue how to pick up the correct lead or change leads. 



> They should be able to do a simple lead change across the diagonal and working on flying changes,


 not at all. :-(



> and beginning work on collection and extension, at least able to shorten the stride on the short ends of the arena and lengthen the stride along the long sides.


 I only know what collection and extension is from reading and youtube. We've never gone near the subject.



> I would also expect a rider at that level to be able to handle basic behavioural issues under saddle - how to respond to a sudden spook, sit and correct a minor buck, and getting a horse moving and focused. They may be able to school sour lesson horses without issue. They may have competed at small shows by this point if that is what interests them.


 other than the shows I'm pretty good with all of this. I've done a lot of trail riding and I can keep a horse calm and sit a small spook.



> I would also expect them to be fairly advanced with horses on the ground - they should be able to tack up without help and be able to saddle and bridle a difficult horse (*difficult*, as in a horse that simply tests them, not a dangerous horse). They should be able to identify various pieces of tack and understand their mechanics. They should understand basic horse care - feeding, how much forage is needed, types of hay and what bad hay looks like compared to good hay, the role of concentrates in a horse's diet and the options available; first aid, what to do with a small cut, large cut, vital signs, symptoms of colic, and how to identify lameness; maintenance, what you use a vet for, what vaccinations are common, the basics of worming, dealing with a farrier and a very basic grasp of hoof care.


 I think I'm pretty good with handling horses on the ground. I can catch a horse in the field, groom, tack, then untack, bathe or blanket and put back the horse. I know a lot about care from again, reading and youtube as well as helping care for the horses on this farm. 

Thank you for the detailed list! So really I have a lot more info in my head than I do riding skill. It's my level of riding alone that I'm not happy with. If you heard me talk horses, you'd think I was a better rider than I was because I understand things but I just can't do them. And that is frustrating.

There is a local riding club close to me. They are mostly middle aged women. I'm going to contact them and ask about doing lessons with one of them. I had never added up the cost of my lessons but year over 5k and I'm still not very far just saddens me. And I'm in pretty good shape, take yoga, go swimming, decent in the athletic department. I can learn this stuff but not if I'm messing around on young horses or even different horses each week. 



> A less advanced student takes a lot more time to get the 'feel' of a new horse.


Tessa what you described is perfect for me! Getting to know a horse first and being allowed to fall into a rhythm with one or two good horses would be so nice! Then there is the issue to going between the gaited and non gaited horses. I can't learn the trot to canter with a gaited horse! :evil:

Thank you ladies. This is depressing but refreshing at the same time but at least I know what I have to do.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

Heelsdown said:


> . To answer someone's question about the horses, two of the greenies belong to people and they are there for training. Four of them belong to the barn owner and they are right now for sale on her web site.


Hang on, she has you riding horses that are in her possession for training!? :shock:

I'm not saying anything against you but if I sent a horse to a trainer and found students of ANY level were riding it, furious would be an understatement. 

$50 an hour for a group lesson!! I could only see paying that if the instructor was in the top of their discipline, not giving "general" riding lessons. 

Talk to the Hunter/Jumper barns around you. You might be surprised, there is most likely an instructor available who would be happy to work with you on "good, general riding skills". After all, nobody can successfully compete in any discipline if they aren't well versed in the basics of good riding.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Tessa, barely advancing is an old coaching trick. It's done to keep the student hooked and paying for a long time.


Is it? Not my intention in the least. In fact, my actual goal for my students is to prepare them for leasing or owning a horse. Everything I teach is with the understanding that they won't be my student forever, and that I have a great responsibility to prepare them as best I can to be the best horsemen they can be. I have 4 levels and upon graduating their last level, they are fully prepared to lease or buy a horse. They don't graduate until I feel they are fully prepared. 
I just feel that students advance more quickly on a horse that they are familiar with.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

Also, I too would be livid if I found out my horse that I was paying hundreds of dollars a month for for training was being ridden by students!!! Shady business!


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## Bluebird (Jul 20, 2011)

I learned to ride when I was ...erm...47! Can I just say first of all that it is the best thing I ever did. However, as we get older, our bodies are not as supple as they used to be. This makes mastering even the basics of horse riding a little more of a challenge. When we fall off (and we do a lot), we tend not to bounce as high as some of you and due to the effects of hormones, some of our bodies break a lot more easily so we do have to be careful. Good horses give you confidence and you can relax more when you ride them making is a much more positive experience. I had a similar experience to the OP in that I rode 'school masters' for the first year or so and then I was tried on more green and flightly horses. BIG MISTAKE. It took 2 lessons and 1 hack on a couple of 'green' horses to totally destroy my confidence. I couldn't control the horse properly, he knew that I was inexperienced and he pushed boundaries to the limit. He spooked with me and I fell off resulting in a badly bruised hip and having to walk with crutches for a month. I found out that the 'riding school' were using me to break in their horses (as I had now been riding for 2 years) and I was paying for the priviledge. I never went back and was scared of getting on a horse again even though I had worked with and been around horses all my life. So roll the story forward. I went to another riding school which was BHS (British Horse Society Accredited) and what a difference. The principal was a top class showjumper (retired) and I had explained to her what had happened to me. She was horrified and said that a novice rider should never ride green horses. She also said it was not about the length of time you have been taking 'lessons' but about the amount of riding time you have - i.e. actually riding the horse that makes you progress. So I went for lessons 2-3 times a week over a couple of months rather than once a week. It was expensive but I improved 200% and learned more in a shorter time than I had done 2 years previously with another riding school. I turned 50 and what did I do? Decided to go get my own horse. I wanted a nice experienced riding horse/pony over 7 years old who would let me grow old gracefully and still let me ride. So what did I buy in the end? I put it down to my age and my deteriorating mental capacity...I bought an 18.1 hh Clydesdale gelding, aged 4. He had been broken to ride but only just. People told me I was totally bonkers and looking back I probably was. However, I just had a gut feeling that this was ok. 'Patrick' turned out to be the nicest, gentlest most perfect horse for me ever. Yeah he's a bit green, I remain a novice but you know, that horse tries so hard to please and there is not a bad bone in his body. We've both come along brilliantly and we now have a bond so strong I almost think he can read my mind. Anyway, love him so much I then had another 'senior moment' and decided to get him a buddy. Everyone told me to get a nice cob/pony...so I went out and bought ...a baby Clydesdale. Now I am not saying anyone should follow my example because I am totally mad. But I think oneof the pooints I am making is that sometimes it is not so much about how inexperienced the horse and rider are, it is genuinely about the actual horse and its temperament. Touch wood, have had my giant puppydog for a long time now and have never, ever fallen off. Its a long way down...


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## Bluebird (Jul 20, 2011)

You are my kind of instructor! Well said and I wish you were over in the UK. I would definitely hire you. I progressed when I bought my own horse after years of riding lessons.


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## Bluebird (Jul 20, 2011)

Tessa7707 said:


> Also, I too would be livid if I found out my horse that I was paying hundreds of dollars a month for for training was being ridden by students!!! Shady business!


Tessa. You are brilliant! The penny has really dropped for me after reading what you said and I wish you lived in the UK so I could hire you as an instructor. XXX


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Bluebird thanks for sharing! I adore clydesdales. Oh they are just so beautiful. I have never seen them used for anything other than pulling here. I'm sure they are ridden but I've never seen them. I love their sweet and docile personalities.

Tessa I agree I wish you were my trainer as well. I guess from being in college, grad and undergrad, I like structure. I like the idea of having a list of things I need to accomplish in order to graduate. And then after I graduate, I move on to the next level. That is a brilliant way to measure progress.

Well, I had my lesson this morning since I can't be there Sat. I really paid attention to HOW I was being taught and sadly, I can see exactly what you all are talking about. Saddlebag was right. She's barely advancing me and I don't know why other than to keep me there longer.

There is a horse there I talked to you all about that is perfect for me. I've said on MANY occasions that after riding many, many different horses, I'm ready to settle into one or two. I'm very interested in buying this horse, but I need more time to spend with him. I had asked two weeks ago if I could ride him. They insisted I ride the greenie. Then last week I said can I please ride Charlie this week since I'm thinking of buying him and I need more time with him. (he is THE perfect beginner's horse. Laid back but has some go, but not too much. Perfect.) I get there this morning and they have this other horse for me to ride. I asked again, "Can I please ride Charlie. I haven't ridden him in weeks." My trainer said "Oh I was going to put you on this one." I said "I'm sure he's nice but I really wanted to ride Charlie today."

I know the horse she wanted me to ride. He's a horse that has had on and off lameness and can't go much above a walk. She's been working with him. That's fine and dandy but I do NOT want that to be my lesson! I'd be happy to work with horses that need some work but I don't want that as my lesson. The point of a lesson is for ME to advance, not the horse. 

So reluctantly she let me go catch Charlie. I had a fantastic ride on him. We even did a little bit of cantering, yay! I just adore this horse. He's around 16 years old and such a difference from the young horses. 

Another thing I didn't like was that I want to do some trotting and cantering and she said, "Well don't do more than walk because the ring is muddy." I asked about the other larger ring that is usually in pretty good shape when the small ring is muddy. She said, "Oh I guess we can try that ring toward the end of the lesson." So I spent the first half of the lesson walking in the small muddy ring basically wasting my time. 
Then I had to ask can I go use the larger ring and she seemed reluctant but let me. There was when I made progress, getting a nice posting trot, I tried some sitting trots, and a little cantering. 

I should not have to fight and beg for this! 

The thing is I want out of this place. I actually felt a knot in my stomach now that I really paid attention to how she was teaching me. But I really love this horse. I'm really thinking of buying the horse and bolting out of there. In my 2 years of riding I never had a horse that I truly felt could be mine and I feel it with this guy. He's just an older quarter horse, nothing fancy, no papers. But **** he's wonderful and he knows me. He sees me and nickers, comes up to me when I go to catch him. I don't want to leave him. 

I'll figure out what I'm going to do. I won't be back for lessons until January. But I was nearly in tears when I left. Why do people have to be shady?


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## Bluebird (Jul 20, 2011)

Heelsdown said:


> Bluebird thanks for sharing! I adore clydesdales. Oh they are just so beautiful. I have never seen them used for anything other than pulling here. I'm sure they are ridden but I've never seen them. I love their sweet and docile personalities.
> 
> Tessa I agree I wish you were my trainer as well. I guess from being in college, grad and undergrad, I like structure. I like the idea of having a list of things I need to accomplish in order to graduate. And then after I graduate, I move on to the next level. That is a brilliant way to measure progress.
> 
> ...


Go buy Charlie then exit stage left as quick as you can. Forgive the pun but you're really being "TAKEN FOR A RIDE". Its chirstmas, can Sants have a hand in your Christmas present....?


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## frizzy (Jun 10, 2012)

When I started lessons my first lesson was in a round yard on a lunge line I walked trot and cantered (this horse a lovely safe horse) as I progressed I moved to the small arena and then eventually got to a large training arena. This was all in the space of 4months. I knew leg yields, was comfortable in walk trot canter, was doing correct leads, sitting and rising trot, learnt correct diagonals,
And going into corners circles etc, I also could sit a buck and handle naughty behaviour. The thing I loved about this horse was that as I progressed he knew and would start to challenge me. 


If you really wanna buy this horse I would do it  I've always been big on following my gut and if something feels right to go for it ...............but be very careful with the situation I would have another barn lined up so he can go straight there the day you buy him. And also make sure u get a receipt of sale. Just in case she decides to kick up a stink.

And I second ringing the jumping hunter barns they may be willing to teach you.


Good luck


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

Yes, "why *do* people have to be so shady"???

I, too, being about as far from this sort of person as one can possibly be, completely understand the impetus behind your question.

In a world where, in my "circles" at least, a good 70% of people seem to resort to indecent behavior of one sort or another before even CONSIDERING honesty, morality and trustworthiness, I find just getting by from day to day to be a puzzle...almost a game...required to be played, and played well at all times, in order to not lose your shirt.

IMO, that is an extraordinarily taxing manner by which to live. I'm often exhausted at the beginning of my night at work. I've been caring for ill (physically and emotionally) people and animals since I began working...about 24 years ago at age 16. This I enjoy. The other part? The games, the "shadiness", the hostility around every corner that seems to go hand in hand these days not _only with life in the workplace _but with life everywhere? That's the part which I feel to be slowly killing off a part of me that I want to keep alive!:-( 

I bring it up because reading about your experiences with your trainer, in an environment where you are optimally to be relaxed, peaceful and learning to be even better at something you love deeply (riding/caring for horses), yet having to play these BS games simply saddens me for you and for, I suppose, the state of affairs today.

I apologize for the heavy-hearted response....I think I could feel your heavy-heartedness over the circumstances of your situation and it really resonated with me.

I genuinely hope you buy your Charlie (DO IT!):wink: and move the heck on to warmer people, better teaching and a situation where you can really learn and do so on a horse whom you can grow to really love! It seems that foundation has already been layed for you two! 

I wish you nothing but the best....B2H


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Thank you so much for understanding and being sympathetic. It means a lot to me.
I know I sound so dramatic saying that I felt a knot in my stomach and was so upset, but really until I read the responses here, I didn't think, or want to think I was being taken advantage of.

I really thought when I posted my question people would tell me it was normal and on the up and up what my trainer was doing. Yesterday when I really paid attention to what she was doing, I could see how she was really trying to hold me back. And I'm sure it's not just me. She probably does this to a lot of people. It makes sense now why so many students, boarders and workers were bailing over the summer. 

I honestly and truly believe that a lot of times people do things subconsciously. I could be wrong, but I don't believe my trainer is saying to herself, "Now let me do what I can to keep Heelsdown's progress hindered. And let me put her on greenies and these horses I have here for training so that's less work I have to do." I really believe that she believes she's a good trainer and runs an honest business. A lot of times people have been doing things shady for so long that they don't know it's shady. It's just good business to them.

They learn to run a business in the most effective way possible, putting the least amount of work for the most profit, and they do that by taking short cuts, cutting corners. And then they tell themselves that they are doing right by their clients and students. It helps them sleep at night.

My trainer is good and does know a lot. But she also let money rule and she got in over her head. So now that's why she's doing crossovers by letting her lesson students ride green horses. 

I honestly think the people getting the most screwed by my trainer are the ones whose horses are there for training. They have no idea that their money is being wasted. 

Well, it was just two of us for the lesson yesterday. Me and the other woman I mentioned who is soft spoken. She doesn't have her own horse either. They had put her on a greenie who was difficult. When we were untacking she leaned over and whispered, "Today's lesson...not so fun." I said "I know!" but we didn't get a chance to talk. I think she's as sick of this nonsense as I am. 

I'm just sad. I considered this trainer a friend. Not a close friend but a friend nonetheless.


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## Luvs JRT (Jan 3, 2012)

I've been keeping up on this thread, and at times have had to just turn off my computer as I've been so angry and felt like reaching through the computer and strangling your coach!

Put aside the fact that she isn't intentionally plotting to hinder your progress or perhaps screw you over financially - all i am looking at is your safety period - and intentionally or unintentionally putting you at risk is NOT excusable!

So when your family gets the phone call that you or your other quiet rider is in the hospital - will it hurt less because she unintentionally put you in danger?

Ignorance is NO EXCUSE!!!! And anyone that calls themselves a trainer or coach should KNOW that first and foremost is the safety of the horses and the riders. Nothing else is more important that that. And your "coach" has no excuse that is good enough for me that explains why she is making this very difficult for the green babies to learn with green riders, and why she would see green on green as anywhere close to acceptable. EVER !!!! 

Go with your gut, buy this Charlie horse - he's probably looking at you as a way out also, and then get the heck outa there! Even if you don't have a coach for a little while, find somewhere where its safe, there are people there that are willing to help you out by being eyes on the ground - until you find a REAL coach.

And please if you care at all for this other lady, please please please tell her to come onto this thread and take a look.

I hope only for the best for you, Charlie and this other lady! Good luck and Happy Holidays


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

Riding Green horses is a good way to learn. If the horse is solid under saddle, just stubborn or needs some help knowing what you want it to do, then there is nothing wrong with the trainer putting you on a green horse. It helps you learn how to teach a horse, and teaches you how to be the boss and not be afraid to be firm. I was only riding with my trainer for a month or two before she started putting me on green horses. But I trusted my trainer, and I knew she wouldn't give me something I couldn't handle.

If you feel like she is progressing you too fast then just tell her. Ask to be put back on the older horses that you are comfortable with. But just remember, the only way to learn is to step out of that comfort zone every once in a while.


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## Bluebird (Jul 20, 2011)

RiverBelle said:


> Riding Green horses is a good way to learn. If the horse is solid under saddle, just stubborn or needs some help knowing what you want it to do, then there is nothing wrong with the trainer putting you on a green horse. It helps you learn how to teach a horse, and teaches you how to be the boss and not be afraid to be firm. I was only riding with my trainer for a month or two before she started putting me on green horses. But I trusted my trainer, and I knew she wouldn't give me something I couldn't handle.
> 
> If you feel like she is progressing you too fast then just tell her. Ask to be put back on the older horses that you are comfortable with. But just remember, the only way to learn is to step out of that comfort zone every once in a while.


A green horse is not a good option for a novice rider especially if the horse in question is hard to handle. You really have to put yourself in the position of a slightly older adult taking riding lessons for the first time. It is a totally different mind set than trying a horse in your teens or twenties. As you age, your body reacts very differently to stress and your life experience also makes you much more aware of risks. You also learn differently. Horsey picks this up and then plays you up! It really isn't fun and putting an adult under stress like this is not good for horse or rider.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

Thank you very much everyone! I bet there are like minded instructors somewhere in your area. It may be an older retired trainer who may be willing to take on another student, or one who doesn't advertise because she doesn't need to. If you feel you can responsibly care for a horse, then I say definitely go for buying Charlie Horse. Cute name! Any pictures of him?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Heelsdown said:


> There is a horse there I talked to you all about that is perfect for me. I've said on MANY occasions that after riding many, many different horses, I'm ready to settle into one or two. I'm very interested in buying this horse, but I need more time to spend with him. I had asked two weeks ago if I could ride him. They insisted I ride the greenie. Then last week I said can I please ride Charlie this week since I'm thinking of buying him and I need more time with him. (he is THE perfect beginner's horse. Laid back but has some go, but not too much. Perfect.) I get there this morning and they have this other horse for me to ride. I asked again, "Can I please ride Charlie. I haven't ridden him in weeks." My trainer said "Oh I was going to put you on this one." I said "I'm sure he's nice but I really wanted to ride Charlie today."
> 
> 
> The thing is I want out of this place. I actually felt a knot in my stomach now that I really paid attention to how she was teaching me. But I really love this horse. I'm really thinking of buying the horse and bolting out of there. In my 2 years of riding I never had a horse that I truly felt could be mine and I feel it with this guy. He's just an older quarter horse, nothing fancy, no papers. But **** he's wonderful and he knows me. He sees me and nickers, comes up to me when I go to catch him. I don't want to leave him.
> ...


Book a stall at a full service training barn, go back and buy Charlie and move him the same day. It will be a clean break, you'll start your new horsey owner life with a new instructor and you and Charlie can learn to be the team you want to be with him. He sounds awesome, the rest of your situation, not so much. Go get your BOY! and post lots of pics!


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Book a stall at a full service training barn, go back and buy Charlie and move him the same day. It will be a clean break, you'll start your new horsey owner life with a new instructor and you and Charlie can learn to be the team you want to be with him. He sounds awesome, the rest of your situation, not so much. Go get your BOY! and post lots of pics!


This, totally agree:clap:


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm so glad this forum helped you. And I also hope you'll have a chat with the other novice rider, if you can.

I don't know why some people are so shady. We all know a few. I don't think they're always intrinsincally "bad" or anything - just good at rationalizing stuff to themselves. 

Best of luck getting out of there and finding a new place. Charlie sounds great - if you're ready to own a horse, I'd say go for it.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

I vote for Charlie, too-he sounds like a grand horse for you. I do hope you can talk to that other lady, too, & clue her in to what may be happenning. Maybe she could switch barns also-it's so nice to have friends around. I'll bet you can find another instructor to coach you & Charlie & it might even be cheaper! Hope you are feeling better about things now that you see what the problem was.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Is there a way to put "Update" in the thread title? I couldn't figure it out.

anyway, I wanted to update. My heart is broken. Charlie was sold over Christmas. A young girl who rides at the barn bought him. I had no idea that anyone was even looking at him. I totally understand that's how it goes. First with the money gets him. I wasn't ready to buy just yet but I was going to make the exception for him. I was preparing to get a run-in shed for my property and hopefully bring him home this month. 
I was so mad at myself for not getting him sooner but I didn't want to make the mistake of buying too soon. But waiting wasn't a good idea either. Ugh. I'm heartbroken over it.

Well, I lost Charlie and I'm done with the barn. I have a few possibilities of barns in my area. One is a little further than this one but I think it will work. Another option is there is a wonderful trainer in my area who goes to your house so when I do finally get a horse, I can have her giving me lessons here. 

It was so, so awkward telling my trainer that I wasn't coming back. I know I should have explained exactly why but I knew that I'd get nothing but excuses. So I just said that I was looking for a barn with a greater focus on English riding and one that had an indoor arena so I could ride all year and not have to skip multiple lessons because the ring is muddy. And really that is part of the reason I'm not happy there. She didn't seem happy but I think she's used to people coming and going at this point. 

Just wanted to update you all. Thank you SO much for all of your advice. I really needed to hear it. I don't know that I would have made the decision on my own.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Heelsdown said:


> anyway, I wanted to update. My heart is broken. Charlie was sold over Christmas.
> 
> ...............
> 
> Well, I lost Charlie and I'm done with the barn.


I'm so sorry that Charlie was sold. Yes, that's how it goes, first money and all that BUT, if your trainer knew or the BO knew that you were interested IMO, they should have given you a head's up so that you could offer higher if you wished. 

Things happen for a reason and I suspect, that your horse is still out there waiting for you. My best recommendation would be, go find a good barn with a solid lesson program and school horses, and start taking lessons from them and see how fast you progress. Continue making your plans for the shelter and fence and get that accomplished, so when the right horse presents himself, you will feel free to move. 

Main thing though, get back in a lesson program right away and start making progress and give yourself that affirmation.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thanks for the update
I think Dreamcatcher has pretty much said it all so I'll just wish you good luck at the new barn and hopefully your right horse will come along - get your property sorted and do all the research
You've made the right decision IMO


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

:-( Oh! I'm very sorry to hear that about Charlie, Heelsdown! I, too, agree with Deamcatcher on everything she wrote in her post above, and believe everything happens for a reason (I know that is trite and cliche, but very true generally, nonetheless).

Your "dream-horse" is still out there...perhaps you'll find him as a result of changing barns and it will all make excellent sense in the end!

*So* glad you are moving on...I can feel your relief for that aspect of the situation in your post. I wish you _wonderful_ luck and send out huge prayers for finding the best barn to suit your needs!

Take care, and I can't _wait_ until you update us again about the new place and circumstances....Yeay!!:lol:


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## Nevermore1 (Dec 30, 2012)

Heelsdown - I know I am late to this post but wanted to say I am glad you left that barn. It sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen and I suspect they don't have the best insurance if they let people smoke around the barn (or will lose it when the ins company finds out). I see a lot of posters here say that $50 is too much for group lessons - I'm not sure where you are in VA but that is actually one of the lower prices for the N VA area based on the research I have been doing in looking for some basic lessons for myself. Most places up here run $50-85 for one hour group. There are a few places that have private lessons for about the $70 and up range but those are for 30-45 minute lessons and some of them don't teach you how to tack up (the horse is ready when you there). If you are in S VA then I would think that the prices should be lower than $50 and hour but not by much (based on FFX and Loudoun Counties being among the richest in the nation). I hope that you eventually find the right horse and barn for you and continue with your riding. I am 37 and just starting to look into horseback riding since my 4 year old took it up a few months ago.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Thank you so much all of you! I'm so glad I could come here to vent. I don't want to dump all of this on my husband. Poor guy hears enough about horses, lol.

I had been paying $75 at the previous hunter barn when I lived in Connecticut. So when I moved here I thought that $50 was a good price. Initially she was doing my lesson alone. Then a few lessons in she put me with the group. I'd gladly pay $50 for a lesson again, even more, if it means getting a good lesson. The one barn I'm looking at is $45 per lesson. It seems to be a common price around here for hunter barns. 

I really hope Charlie got a wonderful home and he's appreciated for the wonderful horse he is. I feel like I lost a pet. I know that's happened to so many people though. Your heart horse is sold from under you. And years later you still think about them. I think that's how it will be with him. 

Back2horseback, I am relieved to be gone! Off to newer and better.


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