# Breast Collars and saddle slip to the side



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't ride on steep hills and I won't ever pull or rope cattle. However, when Mia spooked the other day, she spun hard to the left and the saddle slid on to her right side. The saddle horn was about 90 degrees off. Mia did stop, but it was not a fun afternoon:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497

I didn't have the cinch tightened down super strong, but it was only about 1 hole looser than 'as tight as it goes'.

In our hard pack little arena, jumping off hurt. Had it happened on a trail, jumping off could have meant going into cactus. There isn't much bare soil around here, and none is soft:










So I'm trying to figure out a way to reduce the chance of the saddle slipping sideways in a spook. The cinch is probably tight enough already. Are there other tack options that will reduce the chance of a repeat? Would a breast collar or pulling collar help? I have no experience with either...and hadn't thought about it, until Monday afternoon. :?


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## calicokatt (Mar 5, 2012)

A breast collar will not help, only add more straps to what has to be undone before you can safely get the saddle off. I know this from personal experience, watching my daughter do essentially the same thing, though I've never been so unlucky.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

A breast collar will help some if properly adjusted. It will certainly stop the saddle from ending up under her belly in a really extreme situation.

I'm going to go with the really generic, "obvious" question first:wink:;

Are you _sure _your saddle fits?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Does it fit? Yes. And no.

She's an Arabian, and like a lot of Arabians, she is a tough fit. I'd say the angle of the bars in front is close, but a little flatter than perfect. In terms of horizontal distance, it is too wide...not gross, but some. The saddle tree in this saddle is a Martin Axis, which boasts of having a lot of flare to the tips. That wouldn't help...

She has good wither clearance, and moves well in it - better than she does in our "Arabian" Circle Y, but that could be because the Circle Y puts ME in a funky position. The Circle Y is also not a perfect fit by any means. She moves better in this saddle than in my Australian saddle, which is why I've been using it. She turns better, tighter, and more balanced IMHO. After 3-4 months, I'd say her back is looking better too, particularly around the withers.

The saddle doesn't shift when I mount. If I stand in one stirrup on one side, it doesn't go anywhere. Realistically, I can't afford to buy another saddle. If she didn't move well in it or acted uncomfortable, I'd have sold the saddle right away. I kept it because she moves well in it and I like what I'm seeing in her back.

On a trail, her explosions are likely to be straight ahead...that, or a jump sideways. Ridden in a curb bit, she stops well straight ahead. I don't think she has jumped over a foot sideways in close to a year, and a small hop like that isn't a problem. All of her trail riding will be in a curb for the foreseeable future.

I was wondering if her initial explosion shifted the saddle back some. That would hurt because her withers drop off fairly quick. I think I could have handled a 45 deg shift, but 90 was too much.

One training thing I can do is get her used to dismounts from the left side. I also need to get her used to my dismounting with both feet out of the stirrups.

It was the first hard spook she's had in about 6 months, and I have no clue why. She was calm enough just before the spook that I almost pulled my feet out for some no stirrup work. The gouge marks in the arena were the deepest she has ever made, so she was putting some power into that spook!


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

Maybe try a breast collar with a wither strap? Maybe that could help the sliding issue some
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ropinbiker (Aug 3, 2012)

I am sure you did this, but I will ask. Did you re-tighten the cinch after warming her up? If not, that could be the issue.

What type of pad are you using? I have to use a different pad on a thinner horse that my daughter rides. And, I don't put a blanket under this pad, I just use the pad. It's a classic equine sensor flex with the felt bottom and wool top.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I know that a properly fitting breast collar has saved my butt before. My mare has a saddle that fits her decently but she's butt high and her canter is so rough and choppy that my saddle would slip to the side a lot. She hates cruppers so on a lark i got a breast collar and with the proper fitting problem was solved. It will slip a little but it wont slip a lot. (Properly fitting is the key words though) ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

ropinbiker said:


> ...Did you re-tighten the cinch after warming her up? If not, that could be the issue...


I never got the chance. I rode her at a walk for about 3 minutes, then she spooked...over nothing that I saw or heard. The pad is a Diamond wool felt. The cinch is mohair. We have a 'Tacky Too' pad we used a few years ago...it has a bit more grip, but the horses sweat more with it. With my English saddles, I use a SMx VenTECH girth because the saddles slipped too much with the other girths I tried. I never was happy about it, but I can't say any of my horses ever acted sore or unhappy with them, and they DID provide more grip.

There may not be a good tack solution. I spent most of my adult life in the Air Force. When you investigate an accident in the Air Force, you look at how to prevent or reduce any repeats. Sometimes it means a change in operating limits...such as, "Do not attempt a wet runway landing when cross winds exceed XX mph". It might be a change in aircrew or maintenance training. The ideal is to find a mechanical solution, because that can be done to 100% of the aircraft and eliminates human error.

I tend to take the same approach to riding. In this case, it may come down to 'sometimes bad things happen'. She is much calmer than she used to be, but she needs a lot more improvement...and I think she will, with time. I still need to become a better rider. If I had trained her to dismount on both sides, I think I could have dismounted off the right without scaring her too much. 

Looking back, my trying to move the saddle back to the left was hopeless. The more I tried, the further off-balance to the right my weight went. It just made things worse. Another option would have been to immediately pull my left foot out of the stirrup and slide off her to the left side. She still would have reacted once I was on the ground, but it doesn't matter as much once one is on terra firma!

I wouldn't expect a breast collar to prevent all slipping, but it looks like it would prevent it from slipping a full 90 degrees. I don't know anyone who uses one, so all I can go on is pictures. I've got a birthday coming next month, and a nice breast collar looks good with a saddle, if nothing else. If I decide to sell the saddle and go back to my Australian one, I could either sell it with the saddle or switch it to my daughter's saddle to decorate Trooper.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Also something to think about, some horses will blow themselves down the instant they spook, making the cinch much looser than it was a moment ago...or a moment later LOL. I've been in that situation where the horse spooks and the saddle shifts and the more you try to right it, the more it slides off. That's never very fun at all.

It certainly couldn't hurt to try a breast collar because it will help. The most important thing will be to keep that lower tug on it very snug so it won't allow much movement. Just because Mia's an Arab, I'd likely go with a pulling type collar because regular collars can be so hard to fit. You wouldn't need anything too heavy duty, but I would make sure whatever you get has a pinch guard behind the ring on their chest.

Of course, I'm partial to these, but they are a lot heavier than what you'd probably need.
Pulling Collar Burgundy Saddle Smith No Tooling Western Saddle Rodeo Tack | eBay

Only thing is, they are also one of the cheapest to be found that still has a pinch guard LOL. This one is cheaper but not by much.
New Wagler&apos;s Leather Shop USA Made Heavy Pulling Collar Wade Saddle Breastcollar | eBay


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## goatgirl132 (Mar 14, 2014)

About the saddle not fitting. Could you use a gel pad and it would flatten where the saddle does fit and will be expanded where the saddle dosent and so it will fill in the gaps where it dosent fit.
I know they do that for english. Not sure it it would work for western.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I always ride with a breast collar. I feel naked without one. To me it's like a seat belt. You may never need it, but if you have a serious saddle-roll event it could really save your butt! 

I have had, on more than one occasion, a saddle roll and while the saddle may still end up on the side of the horse, it will keep you and your saddle from ending up underneath the horse, which is potentially fatal for both you and your saddle.

I use a regular breast collar with a wither strap, but a pulling collar works similarly. So I guess it's just a matter of fit and preference. But to me, a breast collar is almost as important as a cinch. I just wouldn't feel safe without one. Because I HAVE had saddles roll with me, and boy, you don't want to end up underneath the horse. That's pretty close to worst case scenario. That and being dragged. Those would be my worst fears.

So I credit a breast collar to potentially saving my life at least twice. The saddles rolled, probably a good 90 degrees, but did not end up under the horse. 

Yes, saddle fit is very important, but if the saddle is loose enough and the spook is big enough, even a well fitting saddle can roll.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Aren't those Diamond pads quite thick? Try switching to something thinner. Thick pads can cause a saddle to float which leaves little for the bars to grab.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Here's a breast collar very much like the one I use with my Aussie [I oiled mine which "dyed" it this nice medium oil color...it's probably my favorite piece of tack in terms of look+function!].

Billy Cook 12914 Lite Breast Collar Western Saddle Roping Tack Western Tack | eBay

It follows the contour of Lacey's shoulders pretty well and I've never had issues with it hindering her movement [a common problem for her with other collars - either it hinders her neck or it gets somehow caught under the point of her shoulder].

Because I know you appreciate illustration, here's a picture :lol:












Lacey is quite round and barrel-y [the typical old-school Arab build - not sure if Mia is the same] so I ride with a crupper as well. The saddle fits the best it can, but it will slip if it gets the chance - a breast collar and crupper make sure it never gets the chance. haha


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It looks like a breast collar or pulling collar would still allow significant slip. I hadn't thought of a saddle slipping completely under...THAT would make for a really bad day! I'm sure Mia would respond something like this:








​ 
I also had a cheap folded western saddle blanket with the pad. I may try deleting the cheap blanket, and I may try a grippier cinch (one like I use with my English saddles).

I'll need to think more about the BC/PC thing. They sound like reasonable safety measures, but our fridge is acting up. Still, one saddle slip under Mia and I might not be able to eat anything for a long time, or at least nothing solid, so who would care if it was cold?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

First, I am so sorry about your accident. NO serious fall is fun.
I know that nobody uses them anymore, but after doing CW Reenacting for a few years DH and I prefer to ride with both a breastplate and a crupper, coupled with a surcingle on top of the girth and run through the loop of the breastplate. I actually like this model picture:
http://www.imeha.org/imehaguidebook/photos/SilkCivilWarYes.jpg
bc it demonstrates the CW breastplate that attaches to the pommel very close to the withers of the horse. The traditional 20th century Western breastplate does not, fastening across the shoulder and not really keeping the western saddle from slipping. Many trainers have been switching to a breastplate more like the US Cavalry used. We never had a saddle with the breastplate and crupper attached come off, even if someone fell off the horse while riding him, but the saddle would never slip to the side.
We have always been in the practice of tightening 3x.
First, to adjust the saddle.
Second, before we walk to where we want to mount.
Third, right before we mount.
We also like to play with the saddle's latigo and I teach my horses to hold their breath. Then, the saddle is uber tight when I mount, but a little bit looser and more comfortable for the horse as I ride. When we were in the hobby each horse would be tacked up at the beginning of the day and not unsaddled until the evening. We just loosened up and tightened up when we stopped, and, of course, unbridled them.
I'm wondering if your Circle Y saddle is a size too small for _you? _ That would really make it uncomfortable for you, even if it feels good to Mia.
Just so you know, when I ride English on my horses I do not use a breastplate, though I do have an English breastplate. Then again, most people that ride English eventually buy a girth with heavy elastic below the billet buckles.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I think Mia would be comfortable enough in our Circle Y if _I_ could fit in it comfortably. However, it forces my thighs to a <45 deg angle, which I find very uncomfortable.

This was from my first ride in my current saddle. Adjusted like this, my thighs still are not as horizontal as they are in our Circle Y Mojave. I now have the stirrups adjusted 2 holes longer than this, and that makes it feel comfortable...but no pictures :-x:










Looking at the picture, I think the saddle is a bit too wide for her. At 15.2 or 15.3 & 900 lbs, she is NOT a Quarter Horse! 

I think I need to RELAX and let my weight settle back - western saddles are not designed for a forward seat as primary. I'm improving, although 'relax' and 'Mia' aren't words that really belong in the same sentence.

And I think she is obviously feeling comfortable. This was about 5 minutes in to our first ride, and she is getting the idea that stretching out in a sitting trot won't bother her. It was the first turn I made around a pylon that sold me. She turned in about half the distance and without slowing any. Of course, right now I'm not quite as enthusiastic about her turning up her own butthole with a smile on her face...:wink:


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Stand facing the saddle and touch the seat stitching with your fingers and lift the stirrup into your armpit so it's pressing into your rib cage. That's pretty darned close as to how long your stirrup should be. In the last pic, when your stirrups are that short the position of your legs pushes your bum against the cantle. This often causes a horse to move with a hollow back as it tries to escape the rearward pressure.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Also, have someone help you on the ground. The basic stirrup adjustment puts the bottom of the stirrup right below your ankle bone when you sit with your leg LONG. Best of luck solving this saddle fitting problem! **hugs**


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Does your saddle have a ring behind the seat for a crupper? A crupper WOULD stop your saddle from sliding sideways. I use one on my treeless saddle. My Mennonite harness maker made it for $11.00.

Nancy


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I enjoyed reading about your adventures with Miss Mia! If you are not already a writer, you should be!! 

After looking at the picture of you mounted, I notice that the saddle goes rather far on Mia's back...with a mare this is not usually a good thing...

Two things I have noticed over my many years of riding, is 1) mares seem to have their worst heat in Feb (strongest) and 2) with some mares, even a slight pressure over the loins can make for some spectacular bronc manuvers...

I had a mare that was totally unridable on the 1st & 2nd day of her heat cycle each month until the fall. She had really, really strong heat cycles. Typically, she went into heat exactly the same day that a show was scheduled (she was a Dressage horse) causing us to have some spectacular explosions right in front of a snickering crowd.

You did mention, I think in the linked story (?) that the last thing you did before practicing some turns was to scooch down deep in the seat. So, my suggestion would be to make sure your saddle, and weight are not over her loins!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Thank you for the kind words. In this case, I don't think the saddle length is a major factor.

Almost all western saddles extend onto the loins. She has been ridden a lot in that saddle, and I've continued using it because she moves well in it. My personal preference would be my Australian saddle. Her preference, based on how she moves, is the western saddle.

Mia is a also a mare who almost never acts 'mare-ish'.

The links below are to a custom saddle tree maker who has obviously put a lot of thought into saddle fit:

All western saddles extend over the loin

Saddle fit - Western compared to English Part 3








"_Here is Dancer. She is a 16 hand Quarter Horse with a fairly long shoulder to hip measurement of 28". The distance between the shoulder and last rib (as marked by the lower two pieces of tape on her back) is 18". ...Here is one of ours with 23 1/4" bars. (This one is a 13" wide wood post Packer.)_"
​My saddle doesn't fit her the way I like, but that is a challenge for those who like western saddles...to find one that fits both horse and rider, you have to actually try them because nothing is standardized. None of the local tack shops has a selection worth a bucket of spit, and buying used is also a challenge. Good quality saddles just don't come up for sale often where I live. And if the saddle fits the horse well, as the Circle Y Mojave seems to, it may not fit the rider at all...:evil:


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Subbing to see how things progress~


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Hmm, that is good she is not mare-ish, but they all can have their days! My little palomino QH is fine with my Fabtron saddle, but one day my daughter put it back one inch father than normal, and bam! She wasn't on her more than 2 minutes (had walked from the center of a 60' round pen to the rail) and she was hitting the dirt. First and only time that mare ever bucked, and my child will not get on that mare again with out first having me check the saddle placement! Hahahaha

Anyway, it was just a suggestion! Sorry I wasn't more help 

My Fabtron saddle has a 23" skirt, it is the only one I have found that fits my short-backed Rocky Mtn horse without sitting on his loins...I have been looking for two years trying to find a saddle without a horn that fits him as well. Darn saddle fits every horse I have ever tried it on! 

here is a picture.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Since these older threads sometimes pop up, I want to update it with the current info:

I've spent about 3 months getting, trying and returning saddle trees. It could be done faster, but we had a fridge and drier to replace in the middle of it, and that put a damper on my finances.

Here is a picture I took today of the tree that I think is going to be the basis for her next saddle:










The blanket was recommended because the actual saddle with have leather between the wood and the horse, and the fit can be deceptive when using just a plain tree. Here is how the plain tree fit, however:










I think I've emailed about 60 or 70 pictures, and these are just a sample. Even when you get down to a bare tree, judging saddle fit is more art than science. A custom tree would give a better fit, but this should be close enough for most use. I think it would be considered a "semi-quarter horse bars" tree, although actual angles and shapes vary from one maker to another.

By comparison, here is the saddle I'm currently using:










She moves well in it, surprisingly so, but I think you can see how padding it up could lead to it slipping sideways. I haven't bought a pulling collar or breastcollar because I think what she really needs is a saddle that fits.

In the meantime, I have continued riding using the above saddle and a pad that is about 3/4" thick. I think it is less likely to come off if she spooks hard that way...but I'll feel a lot more confident on a trail surrounded by rock and cactus if I can get her a saddle that fits her reasonably well!


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