# No Brakes!



## Ellieandrose (Apr 27, 2012)

Instead of ridding off her mouth ride from your body and voice. Other members on here would be better at explain on how to ride from your body instead of mouth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I Have worked on that with her, the issue NO ONE wants to rider after riding her once. NO ONE can sit anything past the walk. When she trots you get forced out of the seat so keeping contact is extremely difficult. Loping is not as bad, issue is that she slows down into the trot again and we run into the being launched out of the saddle issue. Is there a way to keep contact and post? when I ask her to stop, push myself into the saddle and bring my legs forward. She dose not really know leg and body ques. Most of the time leg ques to her mean "faster? Ok!" she had gotten better though I will say that.

Here is a vid from Sat.(a lot of the bouncing is when im trying to get her to stop so I 'quit riding' as I have been told by many people.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Have her teeth been checked?


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## Ellieandrose (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm going to write a bit if an essay on my phone so I'm sorry how this turns out. Haha. 
My mare used to be exactly like that, I sit deep and ask her to slow down and we'd ether end up in some gallop thing or she'd buck me off. So I went back to basics as people have said on here. From the video you put up it looks like that she could have a bit of a reminder on her ground work then once she is listening and looking for your slightest ques then we mount. What I found helpful was even having someone on the ground so the horse thinks its doing its regular ground work just with weight in the saddle and pressure on its sides. Once said horse is listen to the person on the ground start transferring ques from the person on the ground to the person on the horse. For example, every time the person on the ground tells you they are preparing to stop then you ask her to stop from the saddle, including a 'wooh' or what ever what you want to include. 
Once you think the horse is listen to you take the person away and see if it works, if not keep going on with this training. If it does work try at the trot, if the horse struggles to listen to you at the transition bring the person back in for the transition as well. This could and probably will take weeks if not months. This is how I did it with my mare and she's a dream now. Mum got a good work out as well!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

True she lacks balance and focus in the gait so it's no wonder she's not real fun to ride. I would have her teeth done if they've not been done recently. It's the ear pinning at certain points that makes me suspect pain in the mouth.


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

Personally, I'd get back on the ground and do a crud-load of ground driving. Basically, it sounds to me like she needs remouthing. I sure wouldn't be getting on board again until you have some kind of brakes established on the ground.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

She had her teeth done last year. She was 17 and looked like they had not been done in 10 years -_-' (that was a fun almost $100). I don't know how to help the balance issue. She dose not know where her feet are I can tell when we play with barrels. I might try working in the curb a it dose not hit the roof of her mouth (where the pain is coming from I bet). I may have to wait till winter to get someone to help me as its been in the low 100 and NO ONE wants do be out in that lol.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Try caveletti work. Have her teeth checked again and go back to ground work would be my suggestion.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Ill see if I can get some, don't know how much they run for though.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Woot looks like my BF can get a hold of some caveletties! So now I can work on her balance. lol she will LOVE this -_-'


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Sorry, I don't really see any runaway horse in the video. I see a confused horse, tho. I see a rider leaning against the cantle, bracing with the legs in lope, and see you rather heavily falling back in the saddle while posting. I might be wrong, im watching on the phone, tho. 

I would, first and foremost, do, as was said, more groundwork. Then doing way more walking first to warm her up. I would NEVER go straight, do lots of circles, making them smaller, then larger again, with leg and weight only. Then I'd start trotting, first nicely forward, again, lots of bending, changing hands. Try to get up out of your knee, when posting, don't stand straight up, rather just lean a little forward, and don't heavily sit down either, just lightly touch the saddle and get up again, so you stay WITH her movement. 
I would lope her at the end for a couple of laps only, again, circle, paying attention to the right lead! 
All the bending will get her to engage her hindquarters, bring up her back, get more comfy to sit. 
Do every change of direction with your weight and legs FIRST, forget the reins. 
Find the deepest spot in the saddle by getting out of the stirrups and stretching your legs down...it will pull you right in it( and the stirrups will seem too short after lol).


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

woops computer had a spazz moment


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

See I used to do that, then got yelled at by a trainer and was told to ride with my legs braced -_-'. and Leg cues to her mean 'faster' and faster is NOT fun. I do feel im coming down hard on her back but its HARD to post that fast. I try to get her to slow down at the trot but she just stops and walks lol. 
So I will NOT do as said trainer said and go back to riding with my legs 'normal'.

This is a vid of my working her in just a halter. She was getting it better then, but now that its over 106 everyday she is having a nice summer vacation lol.






in terms of ground work what should i do exactly? No one has felt the need to teach me (or bothered doing it themselves). This is what I mostly do with her on the ground.





this is mostly play but you can see how she normally acts when being worked. Paying attention to me.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

First off, and I mean this in the most constructive way possible, at least 90% of horse 'problems' are actually a problem with the handler.
secondly, are you sure its not pain? I've known two horses recently that were super 'rushy', and very hard to stop. both had back problems. After ruling out back pain and poor saddle fit, I would take these steps:

#1, put a smooth snaffle on her, no tom thumb, no curb.
#2, ask your self "am I not communicating clearly?" every time you have a problem. Its probably your fault. focus on how you ask for something, if you are asking in the right way and is the way you ride allowing your horse to comply easily, or making it more difficult? Most importantly focus on how quickly you release the pressure when the horse gives you the correct response.
#3, go get Clinton Andersons book. Do all of the groundwork exercises thoroughly, until you are both great at them. then move on to the under saddle exercises, and work on each one until you have them mastered. you very likely will find your problem has disappeared.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Im iffy on the snaffle as she HATES it. It can just be IN her mouth, no reins and she throws a tantrum. And the last time I used it I ended up on crutches for a week. Ill try it again, but if I get thrown Im NOT using it. I have a friend who is a certified massage therapist for horses check her back, and shes in the clear that way. Im iffy on Anderson too. Last person I saw train his way had whipped all the skin off a gelding chest, and his horses look fearful of him. Ill try it but I wont beat my horse.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I'd like to meet that trainer who says brace your legs and put him on a certain horse....then call in the helicopter with the big net to catch them.......

If your horse is a bit sensitive in the back, or her saddle doesn't fit quite right, and you brace and lean on the cantle, it will hurt her and she'll run away from under you. Period. 

For the fast trot....it isn't that fast, first of all( watch a kid in a Shetland pony...now THAT is fast lol), second, if you have your knee on the horse and get up out if knee and lower leg, only slightly getting up and doing so forward rather than up, you won't come out of the saddle that much and have a shorter way down, so to speak. Which, in turn, makes you go with her movement. 

She might have a problem with the mouth, so why insisting on a bit? Sidepull, hackamore, if she's more comfy that way. And every time she gets too fast, turn her. When she slows down, go straight. 

I'm not a great fan of Anderson, of none of the " gurus", actually. I'm rather the Brannaman, Dorrance, Hunt type. Sorry Bluespark;-)


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Im iffy on the snaffle as she HATES it


single or double jointed? A horse with a shallow pallet will HATE a single jointed bit, but that would include the tom thumb, where many horses with thicker tongues will hate a double jointed but work well in a single joint.

the tom thumb is a harsh, confusing bit, and I don't think it makes sense in the way it functions at all.



> Im iffy on Anderson too. Last person I saw train his way had whipped all the skin off a gelding chest, and his horses look fearful of him. Ill try it but I wont beat my horse.


Read the book. If you follow the directions you will end up with a willing, soft, obedient, respectful horse, and yourself as a better handler. I'm sorry, but anyone whipping the skin off any part of a horses body needs to be tied up and whipped themselves. No where in CA's book does it advocate beating, abuse or taking the hide off a horse. You admitted you have little knowledge of groundwork, and no money for a trainer, so the best ground work book I know of, that gives clear, easy to follow steps and good results, is CA's.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

How do you ask your mare to stop? I ask because I have a horse that I was told had to be ridden in a kimberwick or he had no brakes (I was also told he would bolt if not lunged before being ridden). I took him to a trainer who watched him and I work. The trainer said he has great brakes you need to relax and let him use them. I was used to horses that you use weight and steady rein contact to get them to stop. This horse its weight, a short pull back and release (the release is where he starts to relax). So, are you pulling back all the time to get that slowing? I also tried a curb (he reared), I tried a snaffle (he was okay), I tried the kimberwick (it took work to stop), I put him in a french link and he is as happy as a clam. Its not a bit issue its a training issue and hard bits are going to make it worse and mask it. 

I would bet that you don't establish a strong enough rhythm at the trot to have it act as a slowing force. You posting out of rhythm with the horse often enough is uncomfortable for both of you so one of you matches the others rhythm. I bet you are matching her rhythm and she should be matching yours. Get music with a steady beat and play that or repeat a rhythm when you ride. 

Before you start fussing over the trot, balance work and what not get a good stop. That means ground work and possibly clicker training a bomber stop. Get the horse to respond to a voice command for whoa every time, on the ground before you even put a saddle on. I know folks who have had their lives saved by having clicker trained a whoa on the ground before they got on the horse. If you don't have brakes you should not be going forward.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Lol said trainer has not come off a horse sence he was 10. (he deals with rearing, bolting, bucking you name it horses). works for him not me. I agree hor trot dose not look fast but its horrid! lol. People dont believe me untill they try to ride it. Suddenly they dont want to ride my horse anymore XD. I did the sidepull and she desided traffic looked fun. a macanical hack makes her flip over even in the softest hands. She has a sensitive mouth untill you say stop. Its so irritating. Everyone is like "oh her mouth is so sensitive you can squees her to a stop on the reins" yes thats fine and dandy untill you are out on the trails or faster than a walk.

As for the one rein stop that was coupled with the snaffle bit and me ending up an a ditch. Found out she can
1. pull a 180 at full speed
2. run looking at the horse behind her
and 3. duck out under me WHILE looking behind her and leave me in a ditch -_-' so We are working on that lol. When she want HOME shes going HOME.

Ill work on where my legs are and my posting. I might go back to the english saddle as it fits her perfect. Its a thorowgood saddle. The issue is she thinks shes a race horse with it on. Shes calm in a western until we trot.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> I'm not a great fan of Anderson, of none of the " gurus", actually. I'm rather the Brannaman, Dorrance, Hunt type. Sorry Bluespark:wink:


I agree, but their books are not nearly as easy to follow. for someone who has little to no knowledge of ground work, simple is a good place to start.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

BlueSpark said:


> I agree, but their books are not nearly as easy to follow. for someone who has little to no knowledge of ground work, simple is a good place to start.


I absolutely agree with that! They are certainly not the typical " how to" clinicians. 
But OP could look up Buck Brannaman videos on YouTube and see if she can relate. There are many. 
If she can't relate, the how to book is the right thing.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Sorry my computer was slow. When I ask her to stop a SIT in my seat, as in pull myself into the seat, sit back and then cue with the reins, and Say whao. She is fantastic on the ground and on drive lines. Its when you get on her that she dose not want to stop. I normally don't like tomthumbs but after the snaffle incident (and me just about bloodying her mouth in trying to get brakes, trust me I felt bad but there where joggers on the trail and she WOULD run them over) My bf had me try the bit. I was able to get her to stop with her head DOWN! normally she was just about to knock my teeth out every time we stopped. That's why I like working in that bit. 
Ill try to go back to the snaffle. I might also drive her more as she stops on a dime in driving lines. 

Id mute it as it was windy and you can only hear me.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Have her checked out by the massage person you mentioned. And have her check saddle and saddle fit, too. I'm just about willing to bet she has a back problem and runs away from the pain.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

The same person who is driving her gave her a full work up, including saddle fitting.

This horse was abused when I got her. She was used for tripping then beaten by a charro. (almost 300lb guy used to gallop her up and down the street on the pavement!) So I have some 'un training' to do from that. I had to teach her that walking was ok. Again her back is fine, I check her periodically for issue (had one saddle that did not fit and she told me about it)


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

So list of things (in no given order)

1. try snaffle
2. more ground work
3. don't listen to the trainer and ride normal lol
4. try ground driving?
5. look into clicker training.
6. caveleties! (trying to get some this week)
7. have someone work on the ground with me in the saddle.
8. work on posting.

Anything I'm missing?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

One at a time, lol, otherwise you won't even know what did it;-)
I'd try the seat first. Together with the posting. I can very well imagine what she went through, I see that around here a lot, unfortunately.......


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Ill start there and with cavaletties. Wont be able to work too much with her though, as its 1000 degrees here lol. She will get worked every day once it drops below 90.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

From the videos and temperature it sounds like you're in the same kind of climate I'm in lol. Early morning....early early;-)


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Having not yet watched the videos, but read all the comments and agreeing with most of them I will add: why go at a speed that you/she are/is not ready for yet? Assuming it's not pain, which of course would be the first thing to deal with. 

Ensure that the brakes work 100% on the ground at a walk and trot. Every time. No crowding. 

Then mount and ensure the brakes work at a walk. Every time. When you say stop, she stops NOW, not three strides from now. If she doesn't stop on the spot, back her up to where she was supposed to stop, plus a step. 

Then move to trot. Trot, walk, stop, walk, stop, walk, trot, walk, stop -- repeat ad nauseum. Again, she MUST stop where you want her to every time. No excuses. No leniency. Once that is clear, move to walk, trot, stop, skipping the walk between the trot and stop.

Weeks or months from now, then move to the lope. Doing anything sooner is 1. dangerous 2. probably confusing.

This might take a WHOLE lot of patience and ignoring the "I wanna" in your mind, but doing things too fast is not doing things right.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I only watched a minute or so of the first video posted, so this is based on what I saw.

Like Deserthorse said, braced legs and arms. When you brace for a stop you will get the same out of the horse. Relax, and drop your ribcage, LIFT your hand with a curb bit( if you still insist on using one) if you want to send a signal. Do not try to set the head by pulling the head down-it is counterproductive. Again like Deserthorse said lots of circles and stop on the bend, and instead of asking for the back up try reversing using the bend you stopped on. She will already be setup for it. On the bend it is harder for a horse to brace rather than going straight and asking for backing. horses that have the habit of bracing get sticky there.
If you rode cutting horses you should know that when cutting the rib and shoulder is lifted up away from your cowside leg. If not, he falls into the turn losing ground and time. So think of it that way. Stopping with a slight bend and switching directions.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I was working with that but she out smarted me lol. My bf would trot (and later on lope) the horses towards the fence and ask them to stop. their options where ether to turn or stop. His horses have a dead stop. Tried it with her and she will refuse to stop and just turn. So i did that with turning her right after she stopped (like rolbacks). worked for about two days and then she was done with it. Ill try it with just turning and see how that works. She was getting a better stop (walk only) when I was working with her on the trail (did not have a safe arena for a year) and she got it. Then I had to start over after we put back shoes on her because she has NO idea how to balance after that (and was no longer in pain. had no idea she was in pain). As for the asking her to drop her head I don't pull, I gently ask. She for the longest time did not how how to give. whenever you slightly pulled on the reins all she knew was to put her head up, I think the hack had a lot to do with that. (head up was not good for her back). So now that she has learned its ok to put her head down I have noticed she keeps her head lower than she used to, and will stop with her head down at a walk.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

What im seeing is you pulling back and not giving the horse any relese at all.. when i ask a horse to stop i give a light jerk of the reins untill they come to a complete stop.. the constant pull makes them throw the head up and will cause them to start ignoring the bit and make them hard in the mouth-- i never give a constant pull unless im wanting a lateral flex (pulling their nose to mt knee) 

Id try giving light taps instead of full on pressure.. same for backing- dont hold the pressure on the bit like that just give the light taps.. i do this for turning too. Its more efficient and is very clear what youre asking of them.

Start this with what shes familiar with (the sidepull) then once she gets what you want switch to the smooth snaffle and you can work your way into the bit you want to keep riding her in.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I don't have the side pull anymore. After she took me for one too many wild rides I gave it back to my friend (and after I was convinced she was going to have a permanent indent in her face). I can ride her in the mustang halter though. I have tried that in the past and she dose not like it. Ill try again though.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think toto has said it well. The thing that gets my boy to stop is relaxation of the rider and a squeeze on the reins followed by a release. Its the release that is more a stop cue than anything else.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am in agreemant with Deserthorsewoman. The braced manner of your riding has a great deal to do with the horse bracing up.

If you have taken the hrose from an abused Charro situation and got her this far, you've done well. that's a lot of work. 
But the mare is still a very worried being, and the whole stopping worries her the most. it must have been something painful for her during her past training. or, she was punished if she didn't stop fast enough , or ? But, she has a lot of anxiety about it. 
I also think that the saddle may very likely be causing her discomfort at the trot or canter, and the harder you ride into the cantle, the more it hurts. Its a really hard habit to break when you learn to ride with your knee braced. it's that bracing that makes you pogo up and down when she canters.

I guess I am really just repeating what others have said, but basically it's get the horse comfortable and responding to the bit at the walk before doing a trot. that could be a LOT of walking, a LOT of small circles. Then when you go to trotting, if possible, let her trot out for awhile, wihtout stopping her. I mean let her cruise around the arena until she relaxs and drops her head on her own. she might trot the first 5 minutes all bunched up and tight, but just keep her going, figure eight, circles, whatever, not too tight, not much rein contact . Just let her go. When you're pretty sure she wants to stop, then kind of tell her she can and let her ease into the stop slowly on the loosest rein you can offer, and you DON"T brace you knee. you can "quit riding" without bracing. in fact, bracing is not quiting, it's actively doing something.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I watched the video until I could not stand anymore.. and I will watch the others later. 

First of all, that is the most boring ride I have ever seen and you probably don't see it! You put her in a trot and at the SAME PLACE you ask for the turn to the center and the stop. Then you pet her and back her up. Oh my.. she is a smart looking horse too. Then you changed direction and did the same thing the other way. All at the same pace. All the same number. YAWN!

This, BTW, is a very human thing to do (stop at the same place.. rinse and repeat). Problem is the horse will get bored out of her skull. On top of that you sit on her like a block of wood.. braced and not light at all. She is a nice light horse.. you need to be as well. 

Meanwhile the horse travels with her nose poked up and her back hollow. She has no idea what you want and looks like her saddle does not fit well.. like she is in pain. This may be a saddle fit issue or it may be the wooden way you are riding. 

So.. here is what I would do. First of all, forget the trot and the lope for now. Just walk. Change direction.. complete 180 degrees.. every 1/4, or 1/3 or 1/2 or 3/4trs they way around that pen. Get her thinking you are crazy. Throw in some 90 degree turns toward the center of the arena.. then a 90 degree back to the rail. Just keep yourself light in the saddle.. weight in your heels not your butt.. and your hands light and easy on the reins. I would try her in a french snaffle. Again.. no trotting.. just walk.. keep turning.. keep asking for nice long strides.. build an active and engaged walk by actively engaging her mind. 

Keep control of her feet. If you ask for the halt and she doesn't halt, turn her. turn her. Turn her. Ask for the halt. No halt? turn turn.. keep the straight strides a different amount. Make her EARN everything. Keep her engaged. Keep her wondering what you are going to do next. 

If she breaks into a trot, turn her.. turn again.. turn again.. make it a lot of work. 

Keep her interested. No more boring. At all. 

You don't need caveletti at this point. She isn't ready. You aren't ready. Learn to sit her lightly and to be light with your hands. Get her forward and engaged at the walk.. not just dragging along.. get her interested and forward at that gait.. and very responsive. 

The trot will come later. 

You can do this. You have an athletic build.. and you have a nice horse.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

^ i agree about the cavalettis. 

Id say the saddle aint fitting right by the way she draws her head up like shes in a panic at the trot- and i noticed its kind of pinched up like a 'V' in the back.. I think the bars are too big on her and its too long in the back.. its a bear trap saddle so i think its sinking you forward but holding you in an awkward position- from what i saw. 

I used to ride a 'crazy' arabian that didnt stop to good but when i used the light jerks on the reins it stopped the horse instead of them biting down and running through the bit anyway.. and come to find out that arabian wasnt so 'crazy' after all it was the way shed been trained.

a sidepull is about like using a nylon halter to ride in so i agree- its not for her if you notice its digging into her face.. id start all over with a smooth snaffle bit- you can even use a mullen (straight bar) and see how she likes that.. if its the saddle throwing off your posture kick it to the curb!


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## mangomelon (May 11, 2012)

You sound like your making excuses for your horse. She doesn't like to stop, she doesn't like the bit, she doesn't like this, that, etc. If you've ruled out pain, then it doesn't matter if she doesn't like it. That's her problem. I rode a mare once who could "only be ridden in a [special] rope halter" because she didn't like bits and she didn't like hackamores and it was all a bunch of bs...the mare was just throwing a fit because that got her what she wanted. I rode her in a snaffle anyway and she tossed her head and backed up and threw a fit about it and I just ignored all that and didn't release driving pressure with my legs until she moved forward. Eventually she was fine in a snaffle. That's just my experience but don't make excuses for her. She may just not like it because it's new and she doesn't understand something so instead of assuming it doesn't work, work her through it.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

mangomelon said:


> You sound like your making excuses for your horse. She doesn't like to stop, she doesn't like the bit, she doesn't like this, that, etc. If you've ruled out pain, then it doesn't matter if she doesn't like it. That's her problem. I rode a mare once who could "only be ridden in a [special] rope halter" because she didn't like bits and she didn't like hackamores and it was all a bunch of bs...the mare was just throwing a fit because that got her what she wanted. I rode her in a snaffle anyway and she tossed her head and backed up and threw a fit about it and I just ignored all that and didn't release driving pressure with my legs until she moved forward. Eventually she was fine in a snaffle. That's just my experience but don't make excuses for her. She may just not like it because it's new and she doesn't understand something so instead of assuming it doesn't work, work her through it.


:think: Youve rode this (OPs) horse before?


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## mangomelon (May 11, 2012)

toto said:


> :think: Youve rode this (OPs) horse before?


No, I rode a different mare. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I was making comparisons between that experience and how she's describing this horse.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

When I mean "don't like" I mean I don't want to get hurt. When she "dose not like" something (ex the kimberwick) she will start rearing and bucking and stuff I can't sit. I CAN ride her in the smooth snaffle, but suddenly she will decide to do something stupid and I can't stop her (throws her head up grabs the bit and runs like the devil himself is behind her). And the braced riding I have only done the past 2 rides (the last was the vid) I have a bad knee and sitting like that kills. I will take another vid next week of the english saddle that fits better. As for the boring ride I know lol. I don't do arena riding normally. I find she works better on the 'trails' close to where I board. Its something different and new things to work with. In the arena there is not a lot to do (that I know). And its a small arena so not a lot of room ether. Next vid i do ill ride in the snaffle and the english saddle.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

So you're saying the saddlefit and her back has been checked and found okay, yet the English saddle " fits better".... hmm...
You don't have a bit problem, you have a back problem, no matter how much you don't want to hear it....


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Any western saddle looks big on her lol. The english dose not look like a huge thing on her. Also its an adjustable tree so its bound to fit better then a arab western saddle. She is calm in an western saddle and a nut in an english, hence why I like the western (The only times I have come off this horse where when she did something stupid in the english saddle).

Here is the english (note I do not have the lifting pad or the nice irons as they where borrowed)

















Ill try the english again. Hopefully cutting out 90% of her alfalfa should make her less likely to '*** out' in the english.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

And again...lifting pad with the English saddle.
I am convinced that, unless you'll have well fitting gear for her, you will run into trouble. Example: western saddle too long, plus you bracing= pressure above the kidneys, which horse tries to escape by running. Pinching because to narrow a tree= backpain which horse tries to escape from by running. Too wide a tree = pressure on the withers which the horse tries to escape from by running away. Running away from something also means nose up in the air and upside down neck. 
So, no matter how you turn it....you know the deal....alfalfa or not...


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> When I mean "don't like" I mean I don't want to get hurt.


All I can say is to read my thread.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/how-buy-right-first-horse-230058/


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

The western is not causing her pain. I don't need the lifting pad on the english, it was just to see how it worked (was not going to argue as I was buying the saddle from her for a steal, if she wanted me to do a hand stand I would have lol). And I don't have money to run around trying to find the elusive perfect saddle. She is fine with this one, she has had her back looked at numerous times and she is not sore. And again I DON'T NORMALLY RIDE LIKE THAT! Sorry but I have stated this, I have ridden braced 2 times and the vid being one of them. And she acts no different regardless what saddle im in (except for being more of a nut under english) and how I ride her, or who rides her. my friend who rides hunter jumpers, refuses to stop, my friend who rides cow horses, same thing, my bf who is a little big for her still wont stop. She is consistent in her lack of wanting to stop. She acts the same even if I'm bareback. I had a saddle that WAS causing her pain and she still did not act up out of the ordinary (don't use that saddle anymore). I don't think it is saddle related.

This was taken a while ago on the saddle that was giving her white spots (again don't use it anymore)






I am aware of the bouncing, found she did not like it and it made her stop.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Corporal said:


> All I can say is to read my thread.
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/how-buy-right-first-horse-230058/


Im not going to sell me horse. She would be on a Frenchman's plate within a month. I already saved her from being dog food. She may lack brakes but she is a good horse. I can trust her on trails regardless how far and rugged. She will swim in the lake, jump a ditch, run up a mountian and not freak out at anything (well as long as its not a evil garbage bag lol). The only times she has gotten me hurt are with the english saddle. I stopped using it, no more issue. Its just her brakes are crap. When I got her there were NO brakes. Im here asking for ways to take her brakes from crap to good. Im not asking for a reining horse stop, just nice stop.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The arena is where you belong for now.. and you need to make it interesting. Training her there is how you get that stop anywhere.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

How do I make it interesting?


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> I CAN ride her in the smooth snaffle, but suddenly she will decide to do something stupid and I can't stop her (throws her head up grabs the bit and runs like the devil himself is behind her).



The arabian mare i rode did this too-- to stop her from clamping on to the bit give a light snap snap snap on the reins till she stops.

pulling back with out release causes the horse to grab the bit and run harder in horses that already bolted on you and can cause rearing in horses that are stopped.


You dont need to get rid of your horse- just find a good trainer in your area to help you out-- your horsell be where you need her to one day just takes time.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

See the snapping dose not work. At one point she took off and there we went full speed for a mile. I did everything, snapping the reins, one rein stop, even trying to pull the bit to her ears. In the tom she can't do that.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I only read the first and last page, so sorry if this has already been covered. But if she stops in the walk, teach her how to do that from your seat in walk, make sure she has it every single time before stepping up to trot. If it doesn't work in trot, push her forward in trot in a circle, keep pushing until she is tired, then try again. Rinse lather repeat. 

To ask from your seat, imagine the worst possible situation in your life to fart. (sorry, but it's true). You are in a tiny office being interviewed for a big promotion, or whatever, would just be horrific for you. As hard as you would hold that in, is the exact thing you do to ask for it from your seat, and then just close your hands on the reins, no pull, just a close. As your horse gets used to the idea, you don't have to squeeze as hard with your seat. 

Honestly it does work.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

^ thats a good way to explain how to ride against the horse. :clap:


Any horse will stop in a tomthumb bit- its a powerful bit-- if she is only wanting to listen to that bit makes me think shes hard in the mouth or is getting away with too much.

The problem with the one rein stop-- your horse has to be taught the one rein stop, lol.. i feel like its a waste of time.

the trick to stop a bolter from bolting is catching it before it gets out of hand-- dont tense up and go to 'holding her back' like a barrel horse- stay calm and give her a tug on the reins to stay in the gait and do that every time she tries to get away from you untill she gets the point that she aint gonna run off.. same goes for when she dont want to stand still like in the first vid- when you feel her take that step catch it and give her a snap to stay put- if she keeps fighting you make her take a few steps backwards- do not keep pressure to back her- pressure then relese after she takes the step back- if shes having troubles backing kind of snap snap snap the reins untill she gets what youre asking of her.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

toto said:


> ^ thats a good way to explain how to ride against the horse. :clap:


Not really sure what you mean as 'against the horse'. It's surely with the horse and what we should be aiming for as it's not yanking on their mouth and riding with our seat. No? 

Or do you mean riding with smarts so not just using force? Honestly I don't know what you are meaning.







toto said:


> the trick to stop a bolter from bolting is catching it before it gets out of hand--


I agree, you feel it happening before it happens and that's the time to stop it. Head either goes up or down as they brace, and that depends on the horse, but you should feel the back end come under, just power, a hard, sharp turn is needed in this moment, but I think this is for a more advanced rider. A horse does not just bolt, there's warnings first. But I don't know how to explain feel to a newer rider.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

The issue is she dose not give warning. One second she is dead. I mean she is just asleep, then in a split second we are off and I have NO idea where it came from. as for the quick one rein stop if she really wants to she will look behind her and keep going -_-'. She is good at a walk. I just lift slightly on the reins and she stops dead, regardless if im using a bit or not. Anything faster than the walk is where I run into issues. I will admit that most of the bolting is being barn sour (or in one case she had her first experience with jumping cactus). I tried the 'western' way of training with one rein stops. Walk a little ways, one rein stop, walk a little ways, one rein stop, etc. Within two turns she will brace her neck and refuse to turn. I have learned that if I can keep her head down (not collected just not high enough to knock my teeth out lol) I have speed control and brakes. The issue is getting her to keep her head down (tie downs don't work with that arab neck of hers lol).

Ill take more vids Sunday.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

After reading the responses here and the OP's resistance to them (sort of like her mare) I think what she wants is a magic answer. She does not want the arena work to get her mare supple and listening. 

Ian McDonald just put up a video of a horse with resistance issues that he is working to soften. I suggest you watch this. This is what you need to be doing.. with this mare... in the round pen. You need to get her soft.. and here he is riding with my favorite training device ever.. the rawhide core bosale and mecate. 

Notice the horse softens his jaw and chews.. just like he had a bit in his mouth. That is called softening and that says a huge amount about the skills of the guy on the horse's back, humble as he is. 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/video-update-bucker-229962/


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Horse brakes are NOT in the mouth.

Does she do the head toss when you lunge her? If she does, put some sidereins on to stop that while lunging. She is NEVER listening to YOU when she has her head in the air. Once her head is dealt with, you need to work on the back and hindlegs. Stiff horses are ROUGH. Her back must absorb the spring. AND you have to learn to post, without gouging her in the mouth. 

I did not watch the later videos, but only the first. The first thing I saw was that she paid NO attention to you going into the arena. I fast forwarded a bit, and you got on, flexed her, then took off at a trot. If that was to save time on the video, OK. But this mare needs HOURS of low headed walking to build up her stomach muscles, so that they can support her back, and honestly, for a month she does not need to trot.

And while you are doing this with her, you can get some riding lessons, and learn how to post without hands.

She is so pretty, and worth the trouble......

Nancy


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I did watch the video all the way through.. and wonder if the OP even realizes the horse only canters on one lead. 

This is a nice horse in need of a lot of training and an athletic enough rider who needs to have a lot of well done lessons.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Elana said:


> I did watch the video all the way through.. and wonder if the OP even realizes the horse only canters on one lead.
> 
> This is a nice horse in need of a lot of training and an athletic enough rider who needs to have a lot of well done lessons.


This! And she needs to take to heart what she posts on other threads about hands and bits ....so, try bitless. 
One other thing I was forced to do by my trainer on a runaway/ bolter TB...once he braced against the bit and went into run-mode, she made me throw away the reins. That confused the heck out of him and he would slow down. But literally, " here, have the reins", all at once throwing of the reins. Worked every time and, over time, took the resistance out of him. Do that in an enclosure, tho.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I would go bitless if she listened. Ill only ride that way in the arena. also the not picking up the lead thing is resent and driving me nuts lol. Sense I put back shoes on her she wont pick it up. Im willing to do the work, I have tried the seat thing and no reins thing and got no where. Ill try everything you guys have said and see what works. Also she dose not toss her head lunging. She is well behaved when lunging and doing ground work, she thinks is a game lol. She is not aloud to get way with anything but she enjoys it (was working with my friends horse lunging. she was grazing and as soon as I put the other horse away she ran into the arena and called at me, all excited lol). As for the lessons that's not possible. Don't have the money and the last person I got lessons from had me bracing lol.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

KigerQueen said:


> *I would go bitless if she listened*. Ill only ride that way in the arena.


The bold part is where you are wrong. The bit is not what makes a horse listen. 

The arena is where you and this horse belong. *Did you take 15 minutes out of your life and watch that video? Watch it! That is what your horse needs. Notice how little contact he has with the horse's face? you can do this with a snaffle. *



> also the not picking up the lead thing is resent and driving me nuts lol. Sense I put back shoes on her she wont pick it up.


It is not the shoes causing the not picking up the lead, its the riding. 



> Im willing to do the work, I have tried the seat thing and no reins thing and got no where. Ill try everything you guys have said and see what works.


It is not a system of try it 10 minutes. Oh that didn't work and then stopping. You need a program of NO TRAILS. Stay in that arena and get it there. And keep at it. You will go further with this horse doing a 20minute intense arena ride at the walk and putting her away than you will doing everything for 5 minutes in the arena and then taking her out on a trail ride. 

If you want to trail ride, do it on a different horse that is broke. 

If you want this horse on a trail ride take 6 months and work in the arena only and get the skills you need to go out on the trails with her. 



> Also she dose not toss her head lunging. She is well behaved when lunging and doing ground work, she thinks is a game lol.


Of course not. And do you know why? the reason for her head tossing and resistance is standing on the ground, not sitting on her back throwing her off stride or hitting her mouth!!



> She is not aloud to get way with anything but she enjoys it (was working with my friends horse lunging. she was grazing and as soon as I put the other horse away she ran into the arena and called at me, all excited lol).


Less likely that she wants to work as she does not want to be left alone. Horses are herd animals and if there is no other horse there, you are her "herd." Being with you is better than being alone. If another horse was there being with the other horse would likely be better than being with you. 



> As for the lessons that's not possible. Don't have the money and the last person I got lessons from had me bracing lol.


I am sorry you do not have the money. This is how so many very nice horses get ruined. People buy a horse thinking it will be like Flicka or Mr. Ed or the Black Stallion... and they can learn as the go like Alec Ramsey. That is fiction. 

The reality is you may learn on your own but that way may get you hurt and it will most assuredly ruin what looks to be a very very nice little horse. Eventually you may learn.. but how many horses will your ruin in the process? Don't you want your horse to do well? 

You really need a good coach.. which is what a good teacher is. And a good horse well broke to learn on. 

Well.. I have given all the suggestions I have. All the ones that work.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> I would go bitless if she listened.


Bitless does not mean bridle less, it means something like a hackamore. 



Elana said:


> After reading the responses here and the OP's resistance to them (sort of like her mare) I think what she wants is a magic answer. She does not want the arena work to get her mare supple and listening.


I agree, and so I am out.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

AlexS said:


> Not really sure what you mean as 'against the horse'. It's surely with the horse and what we should be aiming for as it's not yanking on their mouth and riding with our seat. No?
> 
> Or do you mean riding with smarts so not just using force? Honestly I don't know what you are meaning.


I mean what you mean- the rider using their seat to stop the horses forward drive.. when i stop my horse i kick my feet forward and give a light snap snap snap to stop- that sounds too simple.. when i kick my feet and legs forward i am using my seat to push forward (like a fart how you explained :lol and stopping my horses forward drive using my seat- i do not snatch my horses face- i barley even touch the reins- i wanted to make that clear that i give jerks but not a snatch- a light tap on the reins but i could use my seat only- picking up the reins makes my horse flex at the pole so she collects and tucks her tush in the stop.. if i gave her a yanking snatch on the reins id be a toto pancake, lol.  








> I agree, you feel it happening before it happens and that's the time to stop it. Head either goes up or down as they brace, and that depends on the horse, but you should feel the back end come under, just power, a hard, sharp turn is needed in this moment, but I think this is for a more advanced rider. A horse does not just bolt, there's warnings first. But I don't know how to explain feel to a newer rider.


Reckon i shoulda held my tongue on that one-- im just too helpful- or try to be.. i realized thats one of those things we have to figure out on our own but i just wanted to kind of give a hint to make it easy to figure out.

I agree- shell learn when her horse puts all the focus on something else and not on her where it should be and correct it- thing is that bits gonna make the horse hard in the mouth and its gonna take a lot more work to fix that.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

She was ridden in a hack and she would try to flip over regardless who was riding her( and freak out even if you dropped the reins). Side pulls she will completely ignore. Ill ride her in her side pull mustang halter as she listens to that mostly (only in the arena). And I don't think i will ruin her. If a almost 300lb Mexican cowboy galloped her almost every day for a year on the street and she was used for tripping (having her front legs roped out from underneath her) and she is getting better im not worried. If I ride her every day she gets amazing brakes. but the longer her she sits (ex the summer) the worst her brakes gets.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If you paid a $100 for a float, you got a minimal handfloat, those are fine for horses that have no suspected problems in the mouth, your horse definitely does. You are going to have to anti up for a vet from a large animal practice that specializes in dentistry to sedate and powerfloat, I bet she has problems way at the back and ulcers back where you can't see in her mouth. Then you can restart her like a greenie, with a snaffle and don't skip anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Her mouth is fine. look in there myself. And not to sound mean but i payed $500 for the horse, im not and do not have the $900 it will cost to bring her to a vet I hate. The only vet clinic here is chaperell. My friend used them for a foundered horse. when she was gone the vet had a farrier but shoes on him and he sank withing a day. the other vet that worked there had to put him down. she did NOT sedate him, and did not give him enough to kill him at first. poor horse suffered. So no I WILL NOT bring my horse to toughs people. I don't know how to start a horse and the only person who could teach me is done with horses. Ill work her in the halter and see how that works.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I may add its the vets fault the horse foundered in the first place.


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## mangomelon (May 11, 2012)

You say you want to put the time and effort in but all you do is come up with a million reasons why the advice on here wont work and I think everyone has given you pretty good advice. Here's mine: if you're unwilling to do what you need to do to train your horse (get a vet, hire a trainer, etc) then sell the **** horse and buy one you can handle. You're doing no one ang favors by working with a horse you cant handle by yourself without professional help. Sorry if this sounds rude but I think its what you need to hear.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

to give incite as to how she was previously trained here are some examples:
took a while to brake her of this and to get her to tie without losing it





this is the kind of stuff he tried to use her for until he realized he needed a stock horse





And this is what she was used for before her last owner






So lack of a good stop is all we need to work on. And again about the wrong lead. she would ALWAYS pic it up UNTIL I put back shoes on.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I can handle her and I have a list of things I need to work on. She dose not need her teeth done, as it was done last year and she has been fine (and as i said i looked and everything is fine). The trainers out here are ether cruel or over priced. And if I sell her she will be dog food (no one wants a 18 year old unregistered horse that needs work when there are 50 others that are better for the same price). If you go back you will see im willing, but everyone started to jump on me AFTER I agreed with them on what I needed to work on/do. I have come a long way with her. she no longer attacks people in her stall. she no longer runs and tried to jump the fence at the site of a rope. She dose not bolt, rear or buck. She can stand tied without trotting in place. She LIKES people now. her only issue is her brakes need work. They are there, but they are not the best. She stopped bolting, but she is barn sour. I came here asking for help. Not a magic answer, but things to help her. Im already willing to ride in the rope halter and work on her stop. I will do circles with her to work on balance. No trails until her stop is better. etc. No I will not use a hack as I have seen what she dose. And as much as i would love to work her every day I cant because a cool day here is 106 with a low of 98. So anything major will have to wait till fall. I cannot hire a trainer as I cannot pay 400 a month board (at the trainers) on top of 500 a month training fee. The economy here is crap and its hard enough to keep her much less hire a trainer.


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## mangomelon (May 11, 2012)

Then I apologize for my post. From reading the thread it sounded like you weren't really committed to actually changing anything. Good luck with her!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Thank you sorry to snap. This horse has tried me alot. Stressed me out ALOT. But i have learned alot. Most people im my area beat a horse into submission, but I could not stand that and worked with her gently (not like babying but i was NOT going to hit her in the head with a 2x4). The only trainer in my area that is not a barral racer beats the horses (using the 'clinton anderson stick' she took all the skin of a gelding's chest after making him back up for an hour straight).

So This is what I need to do:

Ride in the mustang halter.
Do circles for balance.
Lots of stop and go.
Keep it at a walk/ trot until the stop for both is perfect.
Then work on the stop at the canter.

And possibly some driving?


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

My advice on ground driving is practice with a well broke horse before you try it on your mare. That is its your first time ground driving. A horse with as much history as yours when combined with multiple ropes and it being a first time for you could easily lead to a wreak. She could easily spin, get wrapped up in the lines and really loose her cool. So, know what the situation should look like before you try it on her.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

She has been driven before and is a dream (odd i know) but ill try to find a horse that can be driven (i know only one person in the area who even trains that way).


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

My post about the float was actually done on the first page, lol, put the iPod down & came back to it later & hit submit. Ok watched your vids and read all the comments. Unless you get this horse comfortable, fitted tack and someone to show you how to soften her to pressure, use your aids properly, enjoy your horse, because she giving you all she knows how and you can't help her doing what you are doing. Is she really horrid to ride or are you okay with how she goes for you? She looks like a sensitive horse that is confused.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

She is a horrid ride but i love her so ill put up with it. And she knows to stop. When she is ridden alot (and in a listening mood) she will stop like a well trained show horse regardless of gait. But the longer she sits (or if we are going home) she likes to 'forget' what whoa means -_-'. so ill work with her in the halter. The saddle fits but no saddle fits her 'perfect'. The english is lighter and is not as big as the western, but she is a nut job when i use it. in the western she is calm and i have better balance (or if she suddenly decides that a slight turn means to turn in the other direction -_-'). Im hoping to apprentice with a trainer next year so hopefully that will help me with her. Ill work on what you guys said, as i have no help around my barn (I know more than the people I board with) and my bf dose NOT like arabians and wants nothing to do with her ether.


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## Elphie (Jul 16, 2013)

I am an English rider so it might be a little different but in my experience with sensitive horses the tighter your leg the quieter and more relaxed the horse becomes. The reason she is crazy in an English saddle probably is not the saddle but rather how you ride in the saddle. I have ridden a ton of OTTB's talk about no brakes they are often taught to grab the bit and run. I always sit deep into my saddle (don't get behind the motion) and squeeze a horse up into a downward transition. Also your posting should determines the speed of the trot, not the other way around.


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## neon (Jul 16, 2013)

Put a verbal 'whoa' cue on her. When you're on her, do tons and tons of transitions to the halt from every gait. If she doesn't stop immediately, back her up.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Well My mare surprised me today. I knew my mare could drive in a circle (kinda like lunging but with drive lines). I did not know she knew how to drive as much as she dose. Here is a vid my friend took. Id mute it as My friends cell goes off and she is talking to her granddaughter lol.

She did everything I asked, including the trotting.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Forigve me if you've already solved this. 

The other day, or maybe today? Not sure which I wrote out a response for another horse on this forum who has no go and I think it will help you quite a bit. 


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-will-not-whoa-259465/page2/


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

We have been working on alot of that though I will continue to do so. She is completely off alfalfa and it has helped alot. She Sometimes acts like a loon but only with the English saddle. She has lost some weight so I may need to buy a smaller gullet bar so it fits better. She is a Dead head in the western. She is stopping good in the arena but is barn sour. So I have been bringing her for walks off the property and im thinking of driving her off the property as well (with a long lead attached so if she had a moment I can spin her around and stop her). Im still using the tom thumb most of the time but Im slightly working her in the Snaffle. She reacts the same at the walk but as soon as we trot the head shoots in the air with the snaffle.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

If it's only in the English then i'm thinking saddle fit may also be an issue or that your balance is lacking in an english saddle. 

I'm also very against a tom thumb bit. I hate them really. It is THE worst bit in the world in terms of balance of it's construction. A horse that works even halfway decent in them deserve a gold medal. I've demonstrated on my own arm to friends why they suck so much. I stuck the bit in the crook of my elbow and applied maybe 2 ounces of pressure to the left shank to 'turn'. The link pinched so bad I had a purple bruise for a week. Not only that but when you pick up on one rein that shank wants to twist and push into the horse's face, thus putting pressure on the side of the mouth like a snaffle. All of that aside the straight shanks do nobody favors, it doesn't allow for any signal before the bit comes into play and it's single joined creating a nutcracker action. 

There are many types of snaffles to try and that is the type of bit needed for basic work like this. Mullen mouths, single jointed, double jointed then of course all your different cheek pieces, all of which have a slightly different feel. 

Curb bits aren't meant for more whoa, they are meant to refine cues on a horse that already has a solid foundation. I can't make you change bits though so if you insist on using a curb either of these is a much more kind option: 
First choice: 
I prefer a curb that is not jointed. However this one is hinged so your shanks will still move independantly. The port is just high enough for tongue relief and be very very mild. The short swept back shanks do not offer much leverage and give signal before the bit is engaged. 

Western SS Low Port Futurity Bit - Statelinetack.com

My second choice for a curb bit:
This is double jointed, making it more mild and again has short swept back shanks giving signal beforehand. This bit can work much like an english pelham in that you can attach two sets of reins so you can primarily work off of the snaffle and only use the curb when needed. 
Western AT Copper Dog Bone Ring Argentine Bit - Statelinetack.com

Even a barn sour horse will show a tendency to want to be in one area even in the arena ( the corner closest to their turnout or such). That is where you can begin to work on her issues. Like I said in the other thread, make that area an uncomfortable place to be and the rest of the arena easy.

On your walks, make sure she does have a couple feet of lead and you aren't leading by the clip.

Although, once things are good in the arena, the trails should be much better and if you have problems you can always bend to a stop, get her to relax and carry on. 

I think I recommend this in the other thread as well, but at first you'll want to work her at the barn beforehand and afterward just to reinforce that coming back to the barn quicker is not a great idea.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Normally I would agree with you on the tom thumb. But when I used it on her it was a ha la lu ya moment. When I ask her to stop in a mild curb bit her head goes up in the air. Same thing with a O ring snaffle, and she just about flipped herself over with a Kimberwick. The moment I put pressure on this bit she put her head DOWN and was soft (I would get a descent stop with a finger!). Id love to ween her off of this bit. She has already started dropping her head and backing in the halter, but still throws it when I ask for brakes. So We will keep working on the not stopping on the front end with her head in the air issue. Once she has that down in the halter driving ill (hopefully before the summer ends) be able to ride her in the snaffle and have good brakes when its cool out.


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## BridlesandBowties (Sep 1, 2013)

The problem is not in the bitless bridle. It is in A-your horses training, or B-your riding. Like a few people said you ride with your body, not your hands. The bitless bridle does not give you less control, it tests your skills as a rider when you are not using an instrument to MAKE the horse listen. 

I would completely chuck the idea of riding her anytime soon and start on some groundwork. Maybe it's just me, but if a horse can't listen in a side pull, it should not be ridden with a bit. 

Start with ground work. Teach her to respect your commands and form a tough as nails bond. Then, once you two have it down to a science, start lightly riding her in a round pen or arena. If you all can't stop together, you should not be anywhere where the environment is not controlled. 

I hope this helps xoxo


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

*Forgive me for not reading all of the posts, but it is IMPERATIVE that your horse stops.* "Corporal" (1982-2009) was headstrong and when riding outside of an arena you really had to pull for a halt with a snaffle, so I preferred a curb with him, still he would ALWAYS "whoa" on command. _Your horse doesn't understand this,_ and it's like you are driving without no brake pads.
There are many ways to solve this but ground training is the best way. You could saddle and bridle and ride by hand (where you are on the ground and ride with the reins) and INSIST that he halt EVERY DAMX TIME YOUR ASK. Your horse has developed a terrible habit. He will, at some point, tune you out and bolt. This makes him very dangerous to ride outside of an enclosed area.
Take any and all suggestions on this thread and retrain him to LISTEN to your cues for a halt.
I was working with my QH, "Buster Brown", yesterday after months of inactivity, and he needs work on his halts. I will be loose lunging for a whoa every time and working him in hand this whole week so he translates the whoa to the snaffle before I ride him again on Saturday. With him, it's just being green, with YOUR horse it's a bad habit, sorry to say.
Unlike Arabian sensitive Corporal, Buster is sluggish and slow in my training arena, but believe me, if I took him out on the trails he'd be on pins and needles and tune me out, so I must train him to obedience. Here is a book I've been studying that might help you,too.
Horse Training In-Hand: A Modern Guide to Working from the Ground: Long Lines, Long and Short Reins, Work on the Longe: Ellen Schuthof-Lesmeister, Kip Mistral: 9781570764097: Amazon.com: Books
Best of luck. Wasn't meaning to preach, I just am afraid for you. =D


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