# Clinton Anderson Academy Concern



## Spark

*Why are so many of the people Clinton Anderson certified as his clinicians no longer a part of his company? *

I'm considering going to his academy myself, but if it isn't a sustainable job... 
Are these people getting kicked out? 
Did they decide not to pay the $10,000 annual licensing/advertising fee and that s why they re not on the website? 
Or is Clinton so picky that no one can make this a viable career???


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## natisha

$10,000 a year to use the name? That's over $800 a month! More than a lot of mortgage payments. I wouldn't pay either.


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## Palomine

After the "academy" killed that Friesian in 2013...could be that association with his "academy" is not a good thing.

As well as more people were coming forward with stories about cruelty they witnessed from him.

The FAQs on the site, should raise warning flags for anyone too.

He's all smoke and mirrors.


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## BreezylBeezyl

I bet it's the fee. There are very, very few people in the world who can afford $10 000 per year for a licensing cost.


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## churumbeque

Contact the people that dropped
out and ask them.


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## dlady

Most of them started their own business. There's 2 still on his site now, Jeff Davis and Deigo Gaona, who will be leaving in January to start their own business. Chris Webb, Justin Freters and others has their own business and is still training and doing clinics. They are still members of the NWC and their contact information can be found there.


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## Saddlebag

If set up as a business, the monthly fees may be considered a business cost by IRS and deductible. I'd be curious as to whom the fees actually go to, Clinton or the big machinery behind him.


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## Fort fireman

Read all the requirements and info on the academy page. It doesnt sound like a deal to me. It is a huge money dump in all his programs before you even start in the academy then during the academy and IF you make it through it continues being a money dump year after year. That would be my guess. The people that are no longer with him realized they don't need his 10,000 dollar name to be in the business. JMHO


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## COWCHICK77

Oh geez..don't do it, it's just another way for him to make money. Do what everyone does that wants to work in the horse industry. Get a job at a barn and work your way up. At least you'll get paid while you learn. I realize that there are working student positions but I have managed to never take one of those, I have always been paid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag

Let's reconsider this. How much are the annual fees to attend University? These higher schools of learning hire knowledgeable people to teach. They don't come cheap. Isn't the CA academy about on par, cost wise with University fees? Should he be cheaper? He's invested years of work and money to get to where he is today. His advanced clinicians assist with teaching same as in Universities with undergraduates teaching. When one completes their CA education and heads home, who pays for all the advertising so you can get students and horses. You do. Nickle dime advertising doesn't cut it today. So why not pay the fees to CA at least until you are well established, but only when your good reputation sells.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

$800/mo is about 1 horse's board and training fees. Not so much when you look at it that way. CA has worked for years to develop his business model and if you're going to benefit from it, you have to pay for it. I don't find $10K/year outlandish, that's less than the cost/month of a cover on The Journal for advertising. It can certainly get you some customers and can benefit you. It's less than the cost of a big show and he goes to several every year, keeping his name in front of the public. 

That all said, when I'm looking for a trainer I'm not name shopping. While having completed his instructional academy will get me to look at you, you have to prove to me that you actually do know what you're doing. CA can't do that for you. So, depending on where you live, the types of horses and clientele in whatever disciplines are in your area, it may or may not be a good investment. Only you can weigh that out.


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## Joel Reiter

I suppose in some ways it could be compared to the difference between opening your own little no-name hamburger stand or buying a McDonald's franchise. Either way you have to know what you're doing and work hard to be successful. I presume that people who pay for the McDonald's name at least have the expectation their money will come back to them in increased business.


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## rideprosperously

churumbeque said:


> Contact the people that dropped
> out and ask them.


I agree, that's the best way to know the reason for sure.


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## Saddlebag

How many people drop out of university? Usually it involves money or the lack thereof but it could be a number of reasons. Life happens. The death of that horse was an unfortunate accident. CA did offer to give the owner a $25000 horse which she declined, preferring to bad mouth him to all and sundry. A friends horse killed itself at a trainer's. She came home with a new horse. These things happen, no one plans it.


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## Hackamore

It’s a money trap that draws in persons that are over fascinated with certain TV clinicians. If you are serious about training horses and learning the business then get a job with an established trainer that is that has a successful business training showing horses. They will most likely pay you a little something for the work or train you in trade for chores around the stable. 

If you have money to spend on education, then get a degree in business management. Knowing how to run a business is more important than your ability with horses if you want to be successful.


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## Saddlebag

Hackamore, have you been to CA's ranch to learn? A degree is business management is a waste of money. Now that's a money trap.


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## loosie

Saddle, that exorbitant yearly fee sounds like it's just to use his name, nothing to do with the course cost. That right there would do me for a reason not to bother, but I'm sure there are many other reasons... Do you have an Aussie accent & your bum looks great in jeans Spark?? I believe that's a big part of his appeal... ;-P


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## Saddlebag

If one sets up as a proper business, registered with the state and IRS, then wouldn't the annual fees be a deductible? I could see it helping a recent graduate get his/her training business off the ground for a few years.


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## STT GUY

churumbeque said:


> Contact the people that dropped
> out and ask them.


 
Wild speculation is sooooo much more fun!


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## jgnmoose

I suspect that one of the issues is that that there aren't many people who have a horse that needs serious behavioral training and deep pockets to fund the change. Nothing against Mr. Anderson, this seems to be the people he wants to reach. 

I don't mean this to be calloused. Many of the people who would spend $10K "fixing" a horse that scares the hell out of them would be better off spending $15k on a been there done that quiet horse with quality breeding and training that will let them actually enjoy their love of horses and compete or show.


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## Saddlebag

Most people take short courses of maybe a week. Those in it for the long haul can lay out as much as $50K. I've often wondered how many horses and how many years it would take a graduate to recoup their expenses. If you can watch those taking the short courses, it's more about fixing the people not the horses. The horses respond accordingly.


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## Wimpys Smart Cash

The trainers I have used, I first went and watched them at a show, day, evening and late at night, not just their winnings, but how they went about getting there in the relationship with the horse. I asked folks who they like and why. And I also learned who they got their training from, and what is that trainers philosophy. I would even go to the barn they work out of, and observe. I personally wasn't interested in a name brand, more so who the person is and what are they about. 

I suppose the trainers I like have gone down the slow, long road of making a name for themselves. They aren't showy or flashy, just good down to earth folks that really get horses, and humans for that matter. Although that's also how I was raised, you work hard and in time your hard work pays off, the slow steady road. I'm definitely not a get rich quick upbringing.

Best of luck!


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## loosie

Oh to have even a couple of $k to spend on horses jgnmoose....


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## loosie

Saddlebag said:


> it's more about fixing the people not the horses. The horses respond accordingly.


That's what it's all about, for the most part - the horses are the easy bit! I think this is the 'big difference' between 'NH Gurus' & 'normal' trainers, who take on horses for training & just hand them back to owners without knowing/caring what the owner knows. NH to me seems more focussed on teaching *people* to understand/be effective with horses. Which is a very good thing IMO... albeit a lot harder to do than just training the animal IME! After all, it's not *generally* pro trainers who stuff up horses, but unknowing owners/riders.


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## STT GUY

Spark said:


> *Why are so many of the people Clinton Anderson certified as his clinicians no longer a part of his company? *
> 
> I'm considering going to his academy myself, but if it isn't a sustainable job...
> Are these people getting kicked out?
> Did they decide not to pay the $10,000 annual licensing/advertising fee and that s why they re not on the website?
> Or is Clinton so picky that no one can make this a viable career???


First...why don't you call Dale Cunningham or Shana Terry and ask them, both have been with CA for a long time and Dale is a pretty straight shooter.

Next, you are is essence training to be a franchise owner with this training. It's a lifetimes worth of training..a four-year degree if you will, The average dost of a public college in 2014 was $9500 per year. You can do the math. 

So now you have graduated as a Certified Clinician. You have to go out and build your business. Three to five years of working your ever loving a$$ off. Based on starting four businesses from scratch (all successful, one became an industry leader Like DUH) I would say that if you're not totally comfortable with 80 to 100 hour weeks for three to five years to start and grow YOUR brand than you need to reconsider. My wife and I averaged 100 hrs a week for about a five year stretch and then were able to back it down to about 80 after that. Remember....if you truly love what you do it's work but it's different that working for the man...in some cube or slaving away making someone else money. "Do what you love and you will never "work" a day in your life" true words. 

Keep in mind, horses are a lifestyle and a hobby for most. No one NEEDS a horse in most cases so you are going after discretionary dollars. So you are not in the horse training business.. you are in the problem solving and lifestyle/entertainment and even quality of life business. You want to help people enjoy their hobby while minimizing the risk associated with it. More fun and enjoyment with less risk is win-win.


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## cenproweb

After watching CA videos I am not impressed with his training.


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## jgnmoose

loosie said:


> Oh to have even a couple of $k to spend on horses jgnmoose....


Lol, yeah I know the feeling. It was what I've heard about the cost of some of the hard cases that have been brought to Mr. Anderson to fix.


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## loosie

cenproweb said:


> After watching CA videos I am not impressed with his training.


Yeah, bit like that Monty character - after seeing/hearing him in action, I'm a little confused why they have such a huge 'following'. 

Maybe the word 'following' has some relevance... And then CA has got that accent, which some weirdos apparently find sexy... And I believe Monty likes to do stuff like 80 pushups in front of his audience & have them count them out loud... now that's impressive...


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## its lbs not miles

Sorry, but I'm not impressed with any of these "natural" horse trainers. They sell a system of tricks for training and better hope to high heaven that the horses you train respond well to the tricks (some horses respond badly to some of the tricks). 
Maybe I should go into business . Being retired I certainly have the time. I'm still training horses, but I do it for free. I don't advertise or look for it. They find me. I just have a problem saying "no" to a horse.
I spend my time training the horse and teaching the owner how to work with their horse. Why? Because horses are not all the same. The owner needs to learn about horses in general and understand their horse in specific. You can't teach that, or learn that from a "canned" training system. It might work with many horses, but there will always be wonderful (even great) horses that will not respond well to some of these tricks.
$10K? And I'm doing all this for free )). I think I'll keep doing it free. You can't buy the satisfaction of helping the horses and their owners. I think that's something all these snake oil salesmen have missed.
You can't sell horsemanship. You can't buy it either.
Not saying these men don't know horses. I've seen some of them do impressive things. Most of the impressive things I've seen were NOT part of their training program. It was with horses that didn't do well with their tricks so they fell back on that they knew vs. what the teach. So why pay for a bag of tricks when it's what they know that's more important. But you can't sell that, since it's about understanding horses and the horse. No book of video and cover all that. Every variation and different ways of dealing with them.
$10K is obscene.


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## STT GUY

its lbs not miles said:


> Sorry, but I'm not impressed with any of these "natural" horse trainers. They sell a system of tricks for training and better hope to high heaven that the horses you train respond well to the tricks (some horses respond badly to some of the tricks).
> Maybe I should go into business . Being retired I certainly have the time. I'm still training horses, but I do it for free. I don't advertise or look for it. They find me. I just have a problem saying "no" to a horse.
> I spend my time training the horse and teaching the owner how to work with their horse. Why? Because horses are not all the same. The owner needs to learn about horses in general and understand their horse in specific. You can't teach that, or learn that from a "canned" training system. It might work with many horses, but there will always be wonderful (even great) horses that will not respond well to some of these tricks.
> $10K? And I'm doing all this for free )). I think I'll keep doing it free. You can't buy the satisfaction of helping the horses and their owners. I think that's something all these snake oil salesmen have missed.
> You can't sell horsemanship. You can't buy it either.
> Not saying these men don't know horses. I've seen some of them do impressive things. Most of the impressive things I've seen were NOT part of their training program. It was with horses that didn't do well with their tricks so they fell back on that they knew vs. what the teach. So why pay for a bag of tricks when it's what they know that's more important. But you can't sell that, since it's about understanding horses and the horse. No book of video and cover all that. Every variation and different ways of dealing with them.
> $10K is obscene.


It's pretty easy to see why CA is successful. He's very good at what he does and his system works with a majority of horses, while placing a strong value on safety of the rider. It is clear and concise, meaning THIS is what you do and THAT is what should happen. Action = expected result(s). He's a very good showman and public speaker and has figured out how to create a tribe.. the holy grail of marketing success. Nothing "bad" or "snake oil" about that.

There are no "tricks" in his system. Merely actions and expected results. I like CA but no one person has all the answers, I also enjoy Craig Cameron, Chris Cox and Julie Goonnight as well. 

Success breeds contempt, always has, always will.


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## Rainaisabelle

I don't mind Clinton Anderson hes one of the trainers I can stand to watch, parelli is one that I don't understand...


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## loosie

STT GUY said:


> It's pretty easy to see why CA is successful. He's very good at what he does and his system works with a majority of horses, while placing a strong value on safety of the rider. ...
> Success breeds contempt, always has, always will.


Yeah, I reckon there must be some good things in what he does, for him to be successful, don't agree with the 'snake oil' lable & yeah, your last comment of course has some relevance. 

My personal opinion of CA has come about from watching his YouTube shows(ads). I have serious problems with what I've seen & wouldn't call it safe either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dlady

I attended a CA fundamental clinic in Tunica, MS in October as a spectator. I went there looking to learn from him and his clinicians. You could tell that some of the participants had watched some of his you tube videos and not really studied the fundamental kit and he didn't mind pointing that out. What you see on you tube is mostly bits and pieces of a training secession. If he felt you was too aggressive with your horse, he called you on it. 

The clinic was from 8am-5pm. After 5pm was for the participants to get extra help if they wanted it. Some rode worse than me on the 1st day of riding. But with all the extra help that they had available from 5pm to 11pm, on the 3rd day of the clinic you wouldn't have thought they were the same people. They were doing roll backs on the fence like they had been doing it for months, when on the 1st ride, some could barely stay on their horse at the canter. 

I have heard people say that if you ever participate in one of his clinics, you can expect to be 10x better than you were before you went. They work hard with their participants and want to make sure everyone succeed. 

I took a lot of pictures and talked with everyone of them. His mom is a riot, and I can see where he get's his gift of gab. They're all very friendly and don't mind giving you advice. I had a few questions and they answered them. Every one was so helpful always ready to offer advice and neither one of them tried to sell me anything.

If you want to see what goes on, attend one of his clinics if one is near you. A walk-about-tour is mostly a demonstration and nothing like a clinic.


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## STT GUY

dlady said:


> I attended a CA fundamental clinic in Tunica, MS in October as a spectator. I went there looking to learn from him and his clinicians. You could tell that some of the participants had watched some of his you tube videos and not really studied the fundamental kit and he didn't mind pointing that out. What you see on you tube is mostly bits and pieces of a training secession. If he felt you was too aggressive with your horse, he called you on it.
> 
> The clinic was from 8am-5pm. After 5pm was for the participants to get extra help if they wanted it. Some rode worse than me on the 1st day of riding. But with all the extra help that they had available from 5pm to 11pm, on the 3rd day of the clinic you wouldn't have thought they were the same people. They were doing roll backs on the fence like they had been doing it for months, when on the 1st ride, some could barely stay on their horse at the canter.
> 
> I have heard people say that if you ever participate in one of his clinics, you can expect to be 10x better than you were before you went. They work hard with their participants and want to make sure everyone succeed.
> 
> I took a lot of pictures and talked with everyone of them. His mom is a riot, and I can see where he get's his gift of gab. They're all very friendly and don't mind giving you advice. I had a few questions and they answered them. Every one was so helpful always ready to offer advice and neither one of them tried to sell me anything.
> 
> If you want to see what goes on, attend one of his clinics if one is near you. A walk-about-tour is mostly a demonstration and nothing like a clinic.


A walkabout tour is a marketing exercise to being the "tribe" together and market good and services. It's a fun experience IMO as CA is a good showman and gives some good insight into his Method system.

My wife and I attended a four-day fundamental clinic in Norco, CA put on by Dale Cunningham. 12 participants (including two Belgian Draft horses and handlers from Disneyland) meant we all got personal attention. The four-day format is great as it allows a bit more practical application of exercises.

While I can only speak for Dale, the amount of opportunity for personal attention was outstanding. He was available before and after regular class hours and during lunch as well. We started at 8am and went to 6pm or 7pm. 

We will do another clinic with Dale in Norco in 2016...it's money well spent.


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## dlady

Dale is doing a clinic about 3 hours from me next year in Lynnville TN. I have considered going. But a couple of my friends want to get together and do a 10 day clinic at the ranch. From what I have seen, either way I decide is money well spent.

Clinton is doing a walk about tour in Memphis in April. I'm considering sending him a video so he can consider using my appy as a demo horse for this event.


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## Joel Reiter

People talk about Clinton Anderson from varying levels of comprehension of what he teaches. In increasing order of offering a clue, they are:

Seeing an episode of his show on RFD-TV or YouTube
Watching him compete in Road to the Horse
Attending a Walkabout Tour
Reading his Downunder Horsemanship book
Studying the fundamentals kit
Attending a clinic with your horse.
Most of Clinton's detractors have obviously never gotten past #1, because if they had, they would have heard him say over and over and over again how "this horse is reacting this way, but another horse might react like this, and here's how you adapt the technique to the horse." They also would have heard him say over and over and over that what I'm demonstrating here is nothing like how I recommend you train. If I had this horse at the ranch we would be doing this for X number of days before we moved on to the next step."

You could put the fundamentals kit or the colt starting kit on RFD-TV but nobody would watch him spend 45 minutes just moving his hands all over a horse and patiently working through every "don't touch me there" spot.

If you don't like his TV show, don't watch it, but even in those episodes he repeats that what he is showing is a radically accelerated, abbreviated snapshot of his method.


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## loosie

I do absolutely appreciate - & I'm sure have said so before - that I have only seen 'snapshots' of what he's about. So far as I've seen its not about teaching you what he does, but giving examples & advertising. That's fine by me. I just don't like a lot of what I've seen, that's all. And if that's his advertisements and I don't agree with it, why would I pay for a clinic? Assuming he comes 'down under'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## STT GUY

loosie said:


> I do absolutely appreciate - & I'm sure have said so before - that I have only seen 'snapshots' of what he's about. So far as I've seen its not about teaching you what he does, but giving examples & advertising. That's fine by me. I just don't like a lot of what I've seen, that's all. And if that's his advertisements and I don't agree with it, why would I pay for a clinic? Assuming he comes 'down under'.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First... I hope you are safe from the bush fires that we are hearing about.

When I finally decided to join my wife in her passion for horses, I was a rank novice. Seriously, I knew the food went in below the nose somewhere...the poop came out under the tail and based on observations had figured out where the term "I need to pee like a racehorse" came from. Other than that....totally ignorant. 

So, armed with this ignorance but willing to learn, I searched for a system that worked. Tried the Pat and Linda stuff, but it just made me want to fall asleep, join a commune and wear patchouli. I kid, well not really, but suffice to say I just don't mesh with that system.

I bought a Clinton Anderson "Philosophy" and found it was a simple, step by step, easy to follow method. Do THIS....expect THAT. Are not getting THAT? This..this..this...this and this are common reasons why. Check your method and try again. No whispering into my horses ears or trying to use the "wheel of personality" to determine how to get my horse to do something. Now a few years in, I value and appreciate a plethora of trainers and basically pick and choose cafeteria style what works for me. No one person has a corner on the market of good ideas and training methods and not all work for all people and horses. 

I'm not a DUH groupie or "tribe" type person, I am just appreciative of a system that worked and still works for me.


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## cenproweb

Original question was is it worth $10,000 GASP


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## STT GUY

cenproweb said:


> Original question was is it worth $10,000 GASP


Costs more than that to be a certified clinician. It's like anything else...are you willing to work your a$$ off to build a business for several years and what's an acceptable ROI for that original investment and subsequent annual ones.


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## cenproweb

What about the guy who helps people with horses for free? It's the horses that are suffering when only the rich can afford them. Horses are being killed off or slaughtered. When Tom Dorrance started traveling around helping people with horses I'll bet he only got a meal and a place to stay for a while. When I was a kid I did work my butt off just to be near horses.


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## dlady

Loosie, CA and Ian Francis was at the Queensland State Equestrian Center on Dec 19-20th. From the pictures I have seen, it was almost a packed house.


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## loosie

^I'm happy for him. Not sure how that's relevant.


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## STimore

I wouldnt use a CA trainer. At what point is paying CA all that money helpful? Trainers will work under other trainers to learn. Most get paid. Once they learn they go out ,& hang their own shingle.


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## Reiningtrner

I tried out for the Academy myself, and was not chosen due to slight difference between myself and the two that were chosen that I tried out with. I've talked with several of the clinicians that are no longer with the company, and the majority decision to not stay with the company was that, "The business just wasn't there after about a year or so of traveling around doing clinics". I have a lot of respect for the method but not necessarily for the companies business practices. Not being chosen actually opened my eyes to a lot of things, and I don't think it would have been the best decision for me to have gone through. Also there is a 3 year non-compete clause that you are required to sign in order to graduate, that's a little steep for any business to ask you to do. About a year is reasonable. Hope this helps, and good luck!


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