# Training the over reactive horse



## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Horse is running the show, not you. You are letting her get by with way too much for her not to be in charge. She is not over reactive, she is spoiled.

And no, she is sweet only when she is doing something that goes along with her plans for the day. She is not opinionated at all, she is a horse and you have let this go on and now she is becoming dangerous.

Have you ever had horses before, or is this your first one? At this point, whichever it is, you need to have someone with good horse handling skills teach you how to work with horses.

No one takes hours and hours to doctor a horse, and no one has this many problems that knows what they are doing.

Not being rude, just telling you that you and your handling skills, or lack of same have caused this. Horse is now what I would consider bordering on extremely dangerous, and may be past point of return, and will be at that point if you don't get help and quickly.

She needs a HCTJM badly. And I don't think you can do that, you need more help than you can get online, you need someone on the ground that can pinpoint the things you are doing to cause this, that can correct you so you are an effective handler.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I agree she thinks she's in charge and so far you haven't effectively changed that.

Also think there's a time and a place to crack down and a time and a place to ignore it.

I would also get her on a high dose of magnesium yesterday. Very classic list of magnesium deficiency and it sounds pretty bad. Worst case it doesn't do anything and you stop it and know it's not the problem. Best case you have a different horse. Worth a try. The above still apply.

From the sound of it she definitely is one of those bratty drama queens as opposed to a horse that is genuinely frightened of things. She keeps on getting away with it too.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Thanks...

Palomine- I have started, worked with or re-started 150 horses. I take rescues, projects and horses with horrible manners and history. Horses who've been passed from trainer to trainer. Worked with trainers certified by Clinton Anderson and taken lessons from Grand Prix level riders. I do not know everything, hence the asking to see how others would handle her, what ground work would you re-cover, what would be your course of action in this situation and how would you reprimand a horse in any one of those situations? I am asking for some ideas, something that might be new to me to try or maybe something that I've over looked. Or maybe I'll say "Yupp, tried that..." and this wont help at all but hey, worth asking other horse people is it not??? If you have any actual advice, that would be greatly appreciated. 

Yogi- She is actually on Magnesium, Red raspberry and Rescue remedy. 

*No one takes hours and hours to doctor a horse, and no one has this many problems that knows what they are doing.*
In the instance of doctoring her head, like I said, started out nice. I didn't expect trouble from her. I have a low ceiling cattle barn and she repeatedly reared up and hit her head over the matter. I took her out and made her move, we lounged, did direction changes, backed her up down the property blah blah blah... walked up to pet her forehead and she was fine. Squeezed triple antibiotic ointment on my finger and reached up higher to put it on her cut and her ears went sideways, she hopped, pawed, darted away, snorted so she was reprimanded, yelled at, backed up, and sent off to lounge again. This repeated. Tried twitching, didn't matter. 

I do not expect it to take hours, or even minutes and like I said not even from her. She does have a "Nope, not in my plans today" attitude & I get what you are saying in that comment. But this is not my first rodeo and so, I am asking, what would you have done that is so different. What training technique would you apply if a horse continues to rear and hit its head, or lounges fantastic, gives to pressure, licks its lips and when you put ointment on your finger it freaks out again. No matter how much you've been over this? No it isn't suppose to take hours but it was. It was taking hours. 

I do not just stop. She doesn't get grass or to take a breather like many beginners would do. No "atta girl its OK" so that she is being rewarded in any way for her misbehavior. She is expected to do her job. Her job that day was to stand and have her face cleaned. Not be coddled or allowed to opt out. 
On the same hand I do believe Yogi is exactly right and its extremely important to know what to ignore. But none of these instances were something to ignore.

Or lets try this. I've gotten every resistant horse in the books to walk into puddles. The day I set out to get them in. Within the hour. Again, not my first rodeo, I've met horses. But from the approach of walking her around and around and around the puddle until she "accidently" steps in to, ponying, to lounging away and resting near the puddle to the I took my draft horse and a strap and PULLED her @ss into the puddle - she will not go in. Sure I can drag her in that day but she still keeps a 20' distance the next time, even when being lead and will not relent and willingly go in. She wont even willingly go near it. What is your next course of action?


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Have you had anyone else work with this horse? In some situations a horse and handler just don't get along and the irritated horse will act out. Just a thought.

A horse like this I would think: 
1)magnesium
2)poor handling
3)other health problem (eyesight maybe?)
4) horse extremely dislikes the handler
5)horse genuinely has a mental problem.

If you/a vet can rule out the first 4 then you may just have a horse with a few screws loose. I have known a few of these unfortunately.


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

I suggest you look into positive reinforcement training.

I know I am going to take heat for this but not all horses do well with negative reinforcement. NR is effective, it works most of the time, but in this case it sounds like it is not working well, and you did ask for suggestions. And even Clinton Anderson says if what your doing is not working try something else. 

Remember horses are flight or fight, your horse is fighting because she cannot flee. She is good for a while then something triggers her and she explodes. It is probably a lot of trigger stacking and then one thing sends her over the edge.

Don't Shoot the Dog! The New Art of Teaching and Training, by Karen Pryor is good, Shawna Karrasch is a positive reinforcement trainer she has dvds and I think a book. Alexandra Kurland has a very good book Clicker Training for Your Horse.

I was a die hard negative reinforcement trainer my whole life, it is how I was taught, it was really the only thing I knew, until a year ago when divine intervention introduced me to a positive reinforcement trainer.

I have this mare that was not doing well with negative reinforcement, while I was able to do most things with her on the ground it was like she was a ticking time bomb. I knew what would set her off and either avoided it, or got ready to move her feet and make her do it. She did not tie, she spooked at her own shadow and everything else you can think of, and she was not getting better, no matter how much I "moved her feet". It was not like she was my first horse, or first horse I broke or trained but she was the first horse I could not figure out.

Then I met the positive reinforcement trainer and after one session with her my mare she had draw, and for the first time she started to show interest in what we were doing, and was a willing participant. Her eyes got brighter, and she was excited to come and do the training.

Basically we started everything over from the beginning but using PR, initially everything was done at liberty. Then we moved onto haltering, rather then me haltering her she learning to drop her head in the halter and halter herself. She walks with me, she stands at the hitch rail for grooming, walks with me to the arena goes to the mounting area all at liberty. Now when she gets nervous she looks to me for guidance and waits, rather then running off. The change in her attitude and improvements have made me a believer in positive reinforcement. 

One of the things that has stuck with me since day one is how Clinton Anderson will say "ask, tell, make," the trainer I work with said "if you ask and they say no are you really asking?" Since we do most things at liberty and they have the choice to leave, then you know when you ask if they really want to be there, and are really ok with what your doing.

It was a huge leap for me and I have not given up on negative reinforcement, but learning about learning theory, operant conditioning, shaping behavior has made me a better trainer, and given me a load more of tools in my tool box. Oh and I do not avoid things with her anymore, now she is a willing participant with whatever we are doing. If she does get worried we have very strong behaviors we can go back to and build her confidence from there. 

Good luck.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry, but I have to agree with Palomine
She is not a sensitive horse, she is a spoiled horse
Sure, you use a bit of a different approach with an over reactive horse, versus a dull horse, but i have worked with both, and all learn to go through water, accept clippers, and certainly don't light into bucking, using just any excuse
I see no sense in ponying a horse on a trail ride. Get it broke enough to ride out
Also, I don't try and desensitize a horse to every obstacle possible, hopping I cover anything they might encounter.
Instead, get body control and respect on a horse, which this horse does not have
Your example of the dog, shows a horse given an inch, and then taking the proverbial mile. 
She is typical of a horse that has learned to use any excuse to act up. Yup-soon you better make sure all the bugs are dead, no wind is blowing, no birds flying over head, and God forbid a deer should hop out
She is not going in the water because you have allowed her to learn she can buck, act up, intimidate a rider, whenever she does not feel like doing something
Forget the water, forget trial riding, until you get this horse broke, thus have body control and respect on this horse, so she does not second guess you as to where she will or will not lead or ride
What you don't do, is baby such ahrose, ***** foot around her, make exceptions.
I have to borrow Cheri's phrase here, as it is very fitting,
'a horse is only as good as you expect it to be'
Or, as Tom Dorrance says, 'be as gentle with a h0rse as possible, but also as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen
I don't care what excuse, it is never enough for a horse to come at you, 'with all four feet' That is NOT a sensitive horse, that is a spoiled and disrespectful horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

While there are times for positive re-enforcement, which I also use, I don't think that is what this horse needs
A horse that has gotten worse with time, has learned she can take control
A horse that comes at people with all four feet, uses anything as an excuse to buck-sorry, that horse needs firm , consistent, clear boundaries
Far as positive re-enforcement, I don't believe in food rewards, but certainly will use.good boy, or good girl, plus a scratch on the whither, at the right time, or just step off and end a work session, when a horse really tried.
Trying to drag a horse through the water, shows a very wrong approach, and is just as bad as trying to drag or beat a horse into a trailer
Look at the true problem, and that is the horse is deciding where he will or will not ride. Fix that AWAY from the water. In other words, 'the obstacle is not the obstacle'.


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## BiologyBrain (Jul 9, 2015)

Sorry for the novel... I don't have a lot to offer here, but I can commiserate with you. I have a mare that is quite similar. She has been spoiled in the past - not by me - and her training seems to have had shortcuts taken. Her spoiling and training shortcuts were caused by her serious injury as a weanling (she needed many months of complete stall rest and then slow physical therapy to learn to walk again) and her easy-going temperament. She was great in-hand with all the natural horsemanship things and I thought she was great for riding too - that's what I was lead to believe. Then out of nowhere she started bucking like a bronc at seemingly random times. I stuck in the saddle until about the 5-6th ride that she bucked. Then I landed in the hospital with a variety of injuries (concussion, dislocated shoulder, bruised coccyx, etc) even though I wore a helmet (cracked it 3+ times) and she is only 13-3HH. During my recovery, as I handled her, I noticed she wasn't as solid on some things as I thought she should be. 

Since then I've completely started her over again. With the exception of halter-breaking her, I'm doing everything again. She has a naturally calm temperament and most things generate a 'spook in place' at most. However, things build up apparently and she suddenly can't take it anymore and explodes. So I started her over again - tying, sacking out, accepting new equipment, longeing, long-lining, etc. My main goal now is to be sure that she is really accepting everything with a truly relaxed demeanor, not just internalizing her fear and letting it build. I watch to see if she is pinching her nostrils, raising her head, tensing her back, or clamping her tail. If she's showing any (or all of these signs) I slow down what I'm doing, but continue until she realizes it's not a threat to her well-being and she relaxes. It has taken us quite some time, but I think we are really gaining great ground. Part of the time has been me recovering from my injuries, but it is also slow going trying to be super alert to her warning signs and working through them. We're working on the longe-line right now and trying to go from racing around at crazy top speed (like in a round pen) to nice relaxed gait and turns without bracing. I've noticed that this slow work has improved our relationship in areas I haven't been working on specifically. I went to trim her feet this afternoon and she patiently stood without any jerking of her feet as she did the last time I trimmed her. I was very impressed! 

So that long novel contained my tiny bit of knowledge gained from my mare - you may have to go backwards before you can go forward. Maybe, she, like my mare, is just a good natured horse to start with, and doesn't freak out as often as she could, but instead lets it build until she can't take anymore. On her good days, watch her carefully for signs of tension - they may be there, unnoticed because she does what she's supposed to most of the time. Every time you see tension, work on whatever is causing the tension until she relaxes.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I've known one horse like that and found positive reinforcement to be the key as well. She was a lot of work and made me think outside the box. It was an interesting experience working with her and while I'm glad I had that experience I hope to never have to do it again.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

IMHO, if its taking hours, then you are training her to take hours. If what you are doing isn't working (outbursts becoming more regular) then stop what you are doing. All you are doing is making this horse tougher. She has no clue that the reason she is being worked so hard is because she's done anything wrong. And if you keep it up, she will resent it, and you. Here's an idea to kill 2 birds with one stone….put ointment in back pocket, get a feed pan and put a bunch of feed in it, make a large puddle of water, drop feed pan on other side of puddle - let her watch you do this so she knows what's in the pan. Then, lead her through water to pan, while she's eating the grain retrieve ointment, smear ointment on cut. If she doesn't like the saddle, so what. Put it on her and turn her loose in the roundpen. Let her do whatever she needs to do, run, buck, fart, kick out, roll, etc. to learn, a) that the saddle isn't going anywhere, b) what it'll do/won't do, feels like, etc., c) isn't hurting her, and, d) it doesn't bother her nearly as much as she thinks it does.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Hmmmm... I have always positively reinforced good behavior -obviously- but never tried clicker training or just positive reinforced training as a whole. I do have a friend of a friend who does, but most of their herd is glorified pets and they only ride bareback in halters, walk/trotting down the trail a few times a year so my impression of it has been that that is good if that is all you want to do... which this mare would love. But I would need to do a whole lot of research on it. It is something that I would consider trying for her. I feel that like someone suggested she has a screw a little loose. And this might be an alternative method. But at this point, I am not going to stop and put her away when she decided shes had enough. 
When clicker training, what do you do when the horse acts up? 

Honestly she is fantastic most of the time. She is not disrespectful, she is super soft and light. She is very friendly, a little goofy and enjoys coming out to do things. She comes when she is called, puts her head in her halter. Stands patiently in the cross ties. She isn't herd bound. She loaded on the trailer, rode two hours alone to get x-rays as a 3 year old. Didn't need to be sedated to stand still for the x-rays and was complimented by several vet techs on "what a nice young horse she is" and "how pleasant she was to handle." 

*OK I am sorry for the novels but I am clearly not describing this horse correctly.*

So, Smilie. First to CLARIFY this horse is less than green broke. Someone has been on her back a few times. One of which was the time mentioned that she started bucking, the other times went great. I am not attempting to ride a horse who has issues on the ground. The rides took place this spring, which it had been MONTHS prior to that that we had any issues with her at all and felt she was ready. You said "get body control and respect on a horse, which this horse does not have" but she does. And I would totally agree with that line! Say you have a horse who for 60 days strait is a saint. Does everything that you ask (minus maybe a puddle, but I am short on puddles to work with being high, dry and sandy so we need spring thaw or major rain to even have something to work with) so mid summer, 60 days, shes great. Then one day, she comes unglued and looses it because prickers are touching her. Prickers that for the past 60 days would have been fine, and for the next 110 days she would probably accept. But not today. Today she is NOT going to have them. How do you handle it? Or for the past 60 days the dog could have ran her right over and she would just stop, but today, the dog sets her off because it is breathing and she is in an outrage. HOW do you handle that situation and HOW do you prepare for every little time something might cause her to loose it. 

I am not training her to take hours. If that were the case, she would take hours to do what I want every day. She does what I want her to do within seconds. Until that day. Then she cannot be reasoned with. Which can be a few days a month or nothing at all for 3 months but never the less, she has always had the occasional day. And on that day she get set off by something new nearly every time (again, water and clippers being the exceptions) 

Like the ointment. Perfect example, Horse Poor- I can walk out right now and slather Swat on her face and in her ears. She has never looked sideways at spray, ointment or the like. And even after that day, no issues. I was able to treat her cut, HOSING her face off and putting anything I wanted on that cut the next day. But on that day, she would NOT have it. She was a monster, and I didn't expect it but handled it as it came. Ultimately, I couldn't treat it. There was nothing short of sedating her and arguing for hours and hours I feel IS going to teach her to take hours to give. It IS going to make her "harder". But what do you do, on that day? Just one day. One episode. She just comes unglued and is not recognizable. She is NOT herself. How would you handle it? If every other day before and since ointment is no issue but on that day - absolutely not, she'd sooner kill herself than allow that my question is how do you handle THAT?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Forget the water, forget trial riding, until you get this horse broke, ...
> I don't care what excuse, it is never enough for a horse to come at you, 'with all four feet' That is NOT a sensitive horse, that is a spoiled and disrespectful horse.


I have owned/trained horses for 30 years, just fyi. I retrained about 20 of them.
I am not the _best trainer for a young horse,_ but I have learned many things from my two geldings that I bought as green broke. I gave up on one gelding that was afraid of way too much, including dewormers, shots and trailering.
You have just "met the elephant" with this horse.
I will NOT accept any wrong behavior while leading or tied. THIS is where you start.
You cannot let up once you start a battle of wills with any horse. You have to spend a whole day working on picking up that one foot, or demanding that this mare drop her head down for you on command. You ask first as if you are asking a very obedient and light and seasoned horse, then escalate your aids. 
Never lose your temper because that is going to give her another excuse to misbehave.
*You CAN wear a horse down.* People are wired to be persistent. Horses are wired to submit to authority.
Really work on a complete list of ALL of the problem behaviors with this mare.
*Spend one FULL WEEK on EVERY ONE OF THEM.
That is the commitment that it will take to fix this horse.
*Decide that you Like this mare before you start, and be ready to immediately praise her every time she tries to be obedient, and stop and let her think about what she did right. This is what I have learned from Clinton Anderson, to accept small obediences, to show the horse that she has please you and TO BUILD ON THIS.
IF she doesn't tie and pulls back, use a training arena and tie a very old lead to an old, beatup halter and turn her out for a day to let her fight the lead every time she steps on it. She will punish herself. I learned about this from a Welsh pony farm where they taught their yearlings to tie like this. Funny to see 20 of them turned out dragging leads, but YOU won't get hurt and SHE will learn.
Then start with tying her up to a horizontal fencepost outside for an entire day, and plan jobs where you or somebody else can keep an eye on her and you could get on the other side of the fence to undo a lead if she gets a foot caught and panics. 
Build on this and begin each training session with her tied to the same spot.
It takes SOOOOOOO many more hours to really train a horse than most people ever spend, but they NEED the time.
Good luck. You are probably the last chance that this mare has before she gets thrown away.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree that this seems to be a spoiled horse. 

The example of not allowing you to put cream on the wound shows she is not totally trusting you and so acts like a right PITA. Personally I would have tried nicely and when she started to play up out would have come the twitch and that applied to her nose. 

If she is obedient to AIDS when she t throws a wobbly then bringing her head around to you knee would stop it. A riders reactions to these situations need to be instinctive/automatic that the moment she tenses her head is on your knee. A few tight circles and then trot forward, any tension, ditto in the opposite direction. 

https://youtu.be/NXI6wv1kBrc

Good example of what I mean


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

She becomes un glued , because she has learned that she can, esp when she uses something familiar, like the dog, as an excuse.
You have to make that wrong thing have consequences
Does not matter if the horse is good most of the time, if there are times she will suddenly buck, charge people, ect.
Far as needing water to teach a horse to go through it-not true.
First time our horses see a river, is when they are first hauled out tot he mountains. Not only do they need to cross water, but water that is moving rapidly
If she was a fearful abused horse, i would maybe consider clicker training worthwhile, but she is not. She is spoiled, and bucks not out of fear, but because she has learned to use it to her advantage.
If she is as green as you say, what are you doing riding her out? Kinda like driving with no brakes or steering.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From your original post:

'She absolutely will not go in water. 

She absolutely will not accept a clippers on her ears/bridle path.

She was being ridden in the arena and doing great but startled ever so slightly at the dog who went by. She walked on fine for a couple more steps and then just got mad, blew up, bucking, snorting, grunting, ears off to the sides, plain mad. Her rider was thrown and she kept it up for a bit. Over the dog walking by...

She will not tolerate bugs. If you are attempting to work her and bot flies are on her legs, forget it. She'll go from great to p*ssed in a second and her ears go off to the sides, she becomes disrespectful, she stomps, she bucks.'

This is a horse calling the shots.
Any horse can learn to accept clippers- I have clipped many horses over the years, including foals and yearlings, when I showed them.
Some were more reactive at first, but all got clipped. I use the advance and retreat, at first, but if I have to use a twitch for that first bridle path or ear clipping, it gets used. There is no 'won't allow or accept-ever!'

You say she gets 'mad' Well, a horse does not really get 'mad', but they can decide to take charge, be stubborn, act out, if they truly have no respect
When you ponied her, and she started to buck, what did you do? Let her?
If you are going to pony ahorse, then you must have control at all times. 
I ponied many young horses, while fitting them up for halter, right along a ditch, next to a busy highway. I used two elad shanks-an ordinary one, and a stud shank, run under the chin.
The horse being ponied, had to travel respectfully, with head at shoulder of the pony horse-never surging ahead or lagging behind, or never thinking of acting up, either trying to throw in a buck, or a bite. That is what the chain shank was for, if needed, and they soon learned to travel on a loose shank, in the right position,, and not react to traffic
By allowing her to buck, with bucking having no consequences, why then should she not think it was okay, also ridden?
Horses are creatures of habit.
You have allowed her to say 'no' at times, and horses don't do well with inconsistency, or grey boundaries. It is also why professionals are much more aware of never letting little things slip, until they become major issues.
This horse is way past having 'little things slip', and is at the next level.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Fox hunter, agreed. I use flexing and one rein stops.
And we did bring out a twitch that day, it didn't matter. 

Corporal, I completely agree. On days that she does this I do set out to win, hence the hours that it can take.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Smilie-
She hasn't been ridden out obviously, not sure where you got that. She is to green.

When she started to buck under saddle she was yelled at, and the rider attempted to jerk her nose around in a one rein stop but came off. She got right back on her, flexed, trotted circles and finished the ride with no mishaps. 

When she attempted to buck while being ponied she was reprimanded. 

It is not as though I just sit back and wonder why she keeps bucking.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, start by teaching her the one rein stop, first at the walk, then the trot and finally at the lope
Horses don't understand yelling
I don't get ponying horses out on trails, in a group ride.
I have never ponied horses on trail rides, and have ridden many young horses out over the years. I have ponied pack horses, of course.
Maybe you need to go back right to ground work, and then when you ride her, make her focus, and that means not being distracted by dogs or any other distraction, but able to immediately use some body control to make her focus on you, dis engaging hips, controlling shoulders, ect
A horse that comes at you with all four feet, is not ready to ride


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

You are not hearing me when I say, I agree. She is not being ridden, after the increasing outbursts of late. She was, after doing well with ground work for months. Then we started to ride her, just a few rides. Since, she has acted up and we've gone back to ground work. She does a one rein stop under saddle (was learning) she does it while ground driving. She does disengage her hind quarters, yield her shoulders and so fourth. On the ground, as she has such limited time in the saddle. We are back to just ground work. 
I disagree as far as ponying and will continue to pony her and other horses but I agree with all of the rest of your thoughts and pointers. 

Just curious, those suggesting posative reinforcement training, how do you handle a horse who is behaving badly? Not specifically her, but any horse.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

How much Magnesium is she getting? She does sound extremely and textbook deficient..right down to the bug hypersensitivity.

I dealt with a horse that was a drama queen (not like your mare just wimpy dramatic personality). Threw a FIT about cleaning a very superficial wound on the tip of his ear. We tranqed and twitched and still couldn't really get it. Finally called the vet figuring have it done right once and call it good. MULTIPLE tranqs and twitching later ear was cleaned, horse was put away and we moved on this life. He got over it pretty darn fast when he realized he was not given an option.

She loves that you are willing to play her games with her 

You're taking the training approach which is all well and good, until the horse is just playing games. Sometimes they need to realize there IS NO choice.

The problem isn't the horse. The problem is you reading the horse.

I know it can be tricky and require a certain type of handler and it's not to say you're bad with horses that this one is giving you problems, it may just not be a good match.

When she didn't want her head treated you did everything BUT "make" her do it. Again, I get why but trust me this mare was clearly thinking "hey I can back around the property ALL day... and you still haven't touched my head!! YAY!!"

It may work for some horses, not this kind. She is smart and she is wayyy ahead of you. Just a tricky horse and a personality/training clash. I happen to do well with that kind, in fact I far prefer that kind. Many people don't. Nothing wrong with that. However, if you want to continue working and advancing with her you need to learn how she clicks and not trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. It may click for you or may not.

I can't give specific advice because as I said this type of horse either needs to be ignored or (sternly) reprimanded and it just comes down to the individual situation. Her head? I would of made her even if it wasn't pretty, then given her a pet and moved on with the day. Consistent proper handling will give you a GEM of a horse here, one that responds beautifully to the slightest cue, you just need to figure HER buttons and how to communicate with HER individually.

I don't think the issue is training persay I think it's personality leading to training. I'm surprised with your experience you have not come across many many more horses like this and figured out how to work with them. She may be a challenge but she's worth it.

I don't think positive reinforcement (as a training method not as in a pet for being good!) is at all right for this horse. Clearly she knows how to behave.

It could possibly be hormonal if it is completely out of the blue like that. Has the vet checked her?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, yes, yes, I was wondering when someone was going to suggest hormonal problems. Go for it, although I have ridden and even shown many mares, some reactive, some not so much so, and have shown every one of them, without any hormonal manipulation.
There is no reason under the sun, why a mare, in heat, can't be expected to behave, like a stallion, that is always under the influence of hormones
Difference being, those stallions are mainly handled by pros.
I am all for ruling out cystic ovaries or granuloma tumors, but after that, nada. A mare can be taught to ignor her hormonal drives, same as a stallion
This mare very well might be a chellenge, BUT, with the correct handling and riding, she can become a 'horse'
Give such a horse an idea that it can insist on not doing something, blow up, and you are well on your way to having an unpredictable horse, the one that is going to wait for an advantage to 'get you'
Those types are far worse than a truly green horse, that just lacks experience, as you will let your guard down, and that horse will take advantage, very likely hurting you
I really do not think that you have the experience to deal with this type of horse, no matter how many horses you say that you have re rehabilitated
Get a handle on her, or someone, maybe you, will get hurt
Trying magnesium won't hurt, as horses that are deficient, will be over reactive. If she is not deficient, won't help


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie- COMPLETELY agree, hence why I said vet check. The only reason I thought of that at all was the OP is pretty insistent she is perfect aside from specific days. Being in heat is not an excuse in and of itself, though if there is a physical *issue* while not an excuse it may provide an explanation.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as the bug sensitivity-sure, those big horse flies can drive my horses nuts, difference being, even then, they do not resort to bucking under saddle
Such a horse is a ticking time bomb on a trail ride!
Even when Smilie was just a long two year old, and she accidentally encountered a nest of ground hornets, which stung her, she was still broke enough, so I could tell her, 'whoa', take her head away, and step off.
Yup, I walked her for about half of a mile, before I got back on , but the key point is, I had body control on her, had her soft in the face, and conditioned to 'whoa' being such an absolute, that she stopped long enough for me to step off, even while being stung.
Same year, I was riding her at a clinic, when some horse, tied a trailer, came charging back into the arena, after breaking loose, still saddled. Some horse started to buck, try to bolt, ect, but I could take Smilie's head away, have her face that horse, and stand, while many horses there were going bananas.
This was not because Smilie is a dead head-far from it, She would hump up, just having show numbers pinned onto her saddle pad, or saddle bags tied on.
Difference was, I expected her to behave, not like an over reactive horse, not like a green horse, not like a mare in heat, but as a horse that has learned respect, and that I expected to act like 'just a horse'


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Yogiwick said:


> The problem isn't the horse. The problem is you reading the horse.


THIS^^ She knows what to do, so it isn't "new" anymore. She's figuring out what she can/can't do and what you'll do about it. That's what makes her seem unpredictable. I guarantee you throwing a fit was on her mind BEFORE the dog showed up. The dog is what you noticed, so the dog got the blame.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

I have gotten several helpful PM's, thank-you and I will respond as I have the time 

*When she didn't want her head treated you did everything BUT "make" her do it.*
Please define "make her do it". That is my question, I keep getting the "you can't handle this horse" speech and ignoring it as you guys do not know me from Adam and I get that. But no one has said in specific how they would better handle the situation. I opened this to discuss the different ways that folks would handle it. See if there is an approach that I haven't tried. Something that I am missing. I have yet to address the commentary hoping someone will just engage in the debate of how they would handle that situation. Which, as mentioned, some are via PM. If you can picture the situation well enough to know that you'd tell me I am unable to handle this horse and to go sit in the house, you can picture the situation well enough to tell me how YOU would handle MY horse if she refused to be treated. (AND I get that you will say it goes back to the basics and blah blah, I agree... so what would your work day with her consist of?) If it happens that a horse who has always been good for wound treatment, (I mean, she had a leg injury requiring 100 days of leg wrapping and stood completely still for any and all doctoring from day 1 until the end & As mentioned she has had Swat and bug spray applied, no issues. Ointment is not new. Even if it was, no excuse for this what so ever.) But one day she says no, how would you proceed? I DID make her. But ultimately I ended up with a horse with a concussion who still refused to allow treatment of her head. (Haven't mentioned that because I don't need to hear it) Everyone says get a twitch. I continually say that I did. I did everything on that day short of calling my vet, paying for an emergency visit to have her sedated and then proceeding with doctoring. We use rope halters, tried a gum chain, tried a twitch, tried working her, she did everything else that I would ask BUT the allow the treatment. She reared in the barn and eventually knocked herself a good one. Knowing that it shouldn't take hours, not expecting to, not letting her "get away" with anything, I don't coddle. I am a firm "face the trailer until you get on the trailer" kind of trainer because *Again, I get why but trust me this mare was clearly thinking "hey I can back around the property ALL day... and you still haven't touched my head!! YAY!!"* I COMPLETELY agree with this statement. I would have never taken her out of the barn thus letting her have that small victory as we stop asking her to accept the treatment on her way to work her if it wasn't for the fact that she was going to kill herself. SO - what alternative ways could the situation have been handled? How would you "make" her? Challenge her to an arm wrestling match?

*It may work for some horses, not this kind. She is smart and she is wayyy ahead of you. Just a tricky horse and a personality/training clash. I happen to do well with that kind, in fact I far prefer that kind.*
Again, I agree! I agree with everything, I am 98% sure were all on the same page here. I own 3 of "that kind". My personal horses are "that kid". They're brilliant. In the end, they will do anything for their person. This is not a horse that I am going to give up on, on the say so of people on the forum who haven't met either of us. 

I do not expect you guys to know my training potential, methods, history or career. Just like I came on here asking for some thoughts from people who I do not know. I've dealt with a lot. I would love the chance to learn more, I am not "God" when it comes to horses but I have made some major progress in many "last chance" kind of situations. As well as OTTBs, BLM mustangs, starting horses and all of the more routine circumstances. 

And even this guy- Who was written about in a book. Who remained a nut case and was passed around for free when I got him. 




When I tell you she has me puzzled, I am looking for ideas on what to work on, suggestions, not a bunch of "well maybe you just plain cannot handle her, you are not doing her any favors". A. You have no way if knowing this. B. If I was truly failing her, she'd be the first and I would LIKE to work through it and learn. But since no one can judge that from the other side of a computer screen, I am asking for some "for instances" on how YOU would handle her during any one situation.

*The problem isn't the horse. The problem is you reading the horse.*
I do not think that this is the case. But please, explain.

:cowboy:


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

I am no horse trainer. I have way less experience than you with difficult horses. But since it seems that negative reinforcement (making her move her feet etc) is getting you nowhere, I would do as gssw suggested and try the positive reinforcement route.

I am doing this at present with my horse. She has a different problem to your horse, but she has gone from being a confident green young horse to a scared and difficult mess in a very short time (please, no "helpful" comments on this problem, it wouldn't be useful for me to hear that I've messed up my horse when I have barely described the circumstances). So now I find myself with a herdbound horse that threatens to explode if we go further than 100m from home. Negative reinforcement is no good. The best way (no, the ONLY way)I have found so far in getting her to relax and distracting her from her nameless fear is positive reinforcement. I have never been a treat person but now I take a bag of pieces of dry bread with me to give her a reason to ignore her fear and accompany me, and to let her know I appreciate her efforts. 

When your mare freaks out over something, I would ask her to do something she knows how to do, which is relaxing for her. Teach her a lower head cue if she doesn't know one, and use that when she is nervous. And reward her when she does it right. 

Then try going whatever you were doing again, and if she doesn't allow you distract her again with something she knows how to do. Keep taking her back to the problematic issue and see if her attitude changes. Of course, you should reward her if you see the merest hint of yielding on her part. 

I don't know if this will be any use but it is what I would try. 

PS I realise that I am sticking my neck into a noose with this post and that I'll probably receive negative reinforcement rather than positive here ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The bite of bot flies is extremely painfull and some horses are more sensitive to it. When it comes to doctoring the horse, did you get her permission to apply it? Did you present it to her in a way that she could touch the container and smell it. Usually if they touch it you're good to go. To help stop her spook be sure to keep your chin up and focus straight ahead whether in the arena or on the trails. Don't be guilty of watching the ground 10 or so feet ahead. When you do, remind yourself that you are picking out a place to come off. The horse picks up on your body position and if it tell it we're going to that tree way down there, that's where the horse will go. You may be inadvertently training unwanted behavior into the horse if you offer it pats and soothing talk after it quits whatever it was doing. It's a horse, not a toddler. A toddler will see it as reassurance, a horse sees it as a reward for what it's just done. And don't look at places it has previously spooked or the horse will know it was right in spooking there.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Bondre- Thanks for the explanation. I am not entirely sure if this is for her, but I am talking with several forum members about it as it seems like a fascinating approach if I continue to get nowhere. This horse really doesn't seem to respond to being reprimanded in certain cases and at these times seemingly its gotten me nowhere. 


*Don't be guilty of watching the ground 10 or so feet ahead. When you do, remind yourself that you are picking out a place to come off.*
This is a great line, a great point and something that I catch myself doing. She is sensitive enough to know that.

*inadvertently training unwanted behavior into the horse if you offer it pats and soothing talk after it quits whatever it was doing. It's a horse, not a toddler.*
This I do not do, no coddling and I agree, its a 1250 Thoroughbred, not a child.

Thanks for the thoughts!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OP your response was a little ranty and I hope not at me as I specifically said why I would and wouldn't say certain things. In fact I eve gave a similar example of how I dealt with it (and no the vet did not come out for an emergency visit that day).

"so what would your work day with her consist of?"

My work day with her would consist of just basic doing what I wanted and expecting her to behave. I think in a sense you are "overtraining" if that makes sense.. it's hard to explain because I think a lot of it does come down to instinct and learning to read these type of horses. Once she gets it she gets it so stop treating it as a training exercise and just tell her "get over it".

When she was bucking what happened? I get the most important thing is to try to stay on and that may be the only thing you can focus on at the time! but ideally she should be stopped in her tracks and reprimanded for bucking. I bet she was looking for that dog to spook at and as such the rider should of been prepared for an explosion. I assure you I could not ride through an explosion, but I'm pretty good at preventing them.

I'm guessing she may feel you are too firm as a trainer, not that you are at all too harsh but more that when she decides instead of complying and one ups you you respond in like instead of ignoring it. She enjoys the fight. Again, this comes down to the way she thinks.

You understand that while many horses would see the backing around the property as punishment this mare saw it as winning as it did not yield the desired result.. there is a time to compromise, ignore, reward, correct, etc. Picking which in these situations is key as I'm sure you know but I think her brain is wired a little differently in that regard than many horses. Expect her to be good.

Did I say you couldn't handle her? And wow.. did I ever say "go sit in the house" "you aren't doing her any favors" etc?? I'm sorry if that's all you got out of what I wrote, especially since I did not mean anything along those lines at all nor do I think they are true 

For the record "positive reinforcement" is being used incorrectly a lot in this thread. If you mean "bribe with food" say that lol. Or clicker training.

While I think those things do have application I don't think they will help the overall issue here. They also need to be done correctly.. I am currently dealing with a horse that in just a few months has been well trained to spook and throw a fit..(eyeroll) A horse like this will take advantage of that if not done correctly.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree with Yokiwick
Yes, training should involve both negative re enforcement and positive, but for me, that does not mean a food bribe-ever.
I will reward a horse with a horse cookie, after a good ride, while back at the barn, but never to ask a horse to do something
I realize there are many that don't agree with this, and that is fine
If you truly have the respect from your horse, they simply do not question as to what they will or will not allow, where they will or will not ride or lead.
A horse that decides to buck, charge people, regardless how 'nice, sweet, she generally is, is not truly respectful.
It is nice to get that respect, before you have to treat them. Just because a horse is good about having a leg would treated, does not mean the horse will be equally co operative when another body part is handled, treated, clipped
Since you could not get near her face to treat her wound, I am left thinking that she is not solid on being tied or having her face4 and ears handled
I have had horses that were perfectly fine, even first time, having legs clipped, but not so much muzzle or ears. Another horse might accept having muzzle and even ears clipped, for the first time, but not legs
Does not matter, in each case the job gets done, tailoring method to the horse
You want a black and white ABC answer, and that is not possible, without seeing your horse, how she reacts, and how you dealt with the situation
Certainly, on a hrose I thought was going to go up, last place I would try treating her, would be in a low roof cattle barn!
There also comes a point where a horse stops thinking, and just goes into flight or fight mode, and we have no idea as to how you balanced that instinctive drive, modifying, adjusting your approach.
Information, for a worthwhile dissection of a problem, is a two way street, and I am still left wondering where 'spoiled or even confused and green come in, as can't see what is happening.
I do agree that the goal is to prevent a buck, thus riding pro active, versus trying for that 8 second whistle


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> For the record "positive reinforcement" is being used incorrectly a lot in this thread. If you mean "bribe with food" say that lol. Or clicker training.


For the record, your statement is incorrect. If you want to do down positive reinforcement here by sarcastically renaming it "bribing with food", that is your choice, but I, or anyone else, can do the same trick renaming negative reinforcement. How about just saying "hitting them with a whip?"

I offer a scientist's definition of positive reinforcement in relation to horse training:

_
“Positive reinforcement”:
Positive reinforcement is an operant conditioning process where the linking of a behaviour with a stimulus increases the frequency of that behaviour in the future. For example, if, as a horse is walking into a horse trailer, it receives a carrot, and then the behaviour of entering the trailer becomes more frequent in the future, this behaviour is said to have been positively reinforced.

However, there is a recent trend to describe the removal of pressure as a “reward” or “positive reinforcement” because the horse desires it. The fact that something aversive needs to be applied for its removal to be desirable is an ugly truth that is often swept under the carpet by this inaccurate use of the term. This type of reinforcement is actually negative reinforcement which, as with positive punishment, relies on the judicious application of something aversive to the horse in order to modify behaviour._
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Your definitions, Bondre, are scientifically correct
However, I guess I remain old camp, far as training horses, with the basic premise being, teaching a horse to move away from/ yield to pressure, versus their natural tendency of resisting, thus moving against pressure
This does not mean the same thing as applying force or harsh methods.
Does not matter if you are leading a horse, tying a horse, applying leg aids, having that horse learn how to correctly give to a bit,as it all involves the horse learning by pressure, but more importantly, learning the reward of that release from that pressure, by yielding to that pressure
I have never used any food treats, nor harsh methods, to load any horse into a trailer. They load, because they have learned to softly yield to pressure
Positive re enforcement, for me, is a scratch on the withers, or a verbal, 'good boy or good girl
I can use both of these tools, showing, or just riding out. 
Conversely, I am not about to carry treats or a clicker
Positive conditioning training, evolved from liberty training, as how else can you train animals at liberty? Works very well for performing dolphins or even horses, but the jury is out in my mind, as to how positive of a training method it is, in developing a horse you can trust and ride as a true partner.
Food is a great motivator for horses, right up there with reproductive urges (geldings excluded in the latter)
When 'push comes to shove', I rather like to think I have that trust and respect in my leadership, then any food reward association.
If that puts me in the camp of those that mainly use negative conditioning, so be it, as my horses don't read labels, trust me, are happy to be with me and work well for me. None are hard to halter, none fear either my hands nor my legs, when riding them, and my horses are known even to nicker, when I walk out in the pasture to halter them


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Bondre said:


> For the record, your statement is incorrect. If you want to do down positive reinforcement here by sarcastically renaming it "bribing with food", that is your choice, but I, or anyone else, can do the same trick renaming negative reinforcement. How about just saying "hitting them with a whip?"
> 
> I offer a scientist's definition of positive reinforcement in relation to horse training:
> 
> ...


You are misunderstanding nor was I being sarcastic..

Positive means the addition of something (possibly food, hey maybe even a whip!)

Negative means the removal of something.

You also have "punishment" vs "reinforcement" as such there are 4 basic methods.

I'm sure if you do further research you will find that.










Nothing wrong with using food at appropriate points in training or as a treat. I don't think you should rely on that (agree with Smilie, proper training is a combination of methods) but that's irrelevant to what I said, I was pointing out the misuse of the term that is all. It's not about renaming, it's about calling a treat a treat.

You cannot clump positive into giving food and negative into hitting with a whip... doesn't leave you many options!!

My dog was NEVER trained with food. A, I don't like to and B, he doesn't really care about food that much. Was he therefore untrainable? Of course not. Being a GSD his goal in life is to please me and he is very very highly trainable. When he did a good job I would tell him that and give him a pet, when he didn't do what I wanted I would ask him again until it clicked and he got that pet. I don't need to correct him after the fact, as I said being a human oriented dog he is eager to please and listens on the spot. Dog training is VERY different from horse training. I am more likely to use food in a training sense for dogs as it helps to have them follow your hand to teach basic commands (sit/down, etc). Using food is a very different method in horses as it tends to get them into more of a reactive mindset than a thinking mindset. I also know several very poorly trained horses where people used food simply because the horse just assumed they were "above" that food machine since they knew all the buttons.

I don't think food (as a training method) has too much application with horses. I mean... isn't "good boy" the same as clicker training? Except on the horse goes "yay food that's all I think about!" and the other the horse says "hmm I'm good! what did I do to deserve that!". They may learn IF done properly the first way but I would rather have an animal willingly pleasing me than their stomach. Also an issue with many animals being overfed 

Like I said, you want to use food fine, just say that. Lack of using food as a training method doesn't mean I beat my horses!

Personally I think this mare will figure out very quickly that if you are a food machine you are there to please her and lose respect.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Oh Sky used to be this way. I'm not a trainer, just a horse owner.

But back then even brushing his forelock or petting his head was a marathon event.

He didn't do clippers, He didn't do saddles, he didn't do blankets, didn't do hoof picking, couldn't tie, wouldn't lead, could barely take a treat without chomping your fingers off.

Saddling, he would tuck his butt and spook from it.

Still acts stupid from time to time around puddles until I work his butt into it and then he's fine. 

She is testing you, and so far you haven't made any leeway into winning those tests. Or since she has such little education, she is fearful and then gets angry when she's still made to do it... sounds like a brat to me!

Do make sure everything health wise is good, but then think about her frame of mind. Is she focused on you, or on something out in the distance or is she glazed out completely? Do you see her create distance, even a little bit, between whatever you're holding/about to do? As in, if you bring the clippers to her, does she slightly lean away? If she does, keep bringing them towards her until she stops moving. Then take them away. Don't switch them on until every time you show them to her, she doesn't lean away. 

The first time I used clippers on Sky, was literally a week after I had even shown him what they were because he was that freaked out (nope wasn't babying him, just picking my battles and creating positive experiences). Then I switched them on, had him on a leadrope and he danced around trying to create distance. I let him dance for awhile but then I asked him to halt and stand. Then I brought them closer until he stood still, then I switched them off and I remember his sharp breathe out like he had almost been holding his breath. Repeated that for a few days, then I used them on him and yes he was still nervous but he wasn't violently running away from me on the leadrope. 

Now I can clip him anywhere. Even standing highly on something.

Now I don't know what you are doing, but this is what I did. To some it may be *****-footing around, but honestly I think it's better to create better experiences to build on than try and strong arm a horse... because that's a losing battle.

The burr thing I might understand, because it feels uncomfortable but I would have continued to ride. If a horse runs into burrs in their paddock, I doubt they start rearing or bucking on their own. They can handle having them on, but if you felt bad for the horse and wanted to remove them, then sure you can get off and do that but you better get back on and continue to work or she'll learn that she can throw a fit and you'll get off of her.

It's one thing to be concerned about setting off other horses, but it's another to allow her to learn that freaking out equals no work. 

As for the doctoring thing, she needs to allow you to do that. Does she know how to lower her head? If she let you pet her, she should have let you doctor her. Did you try petting her and then sneaking it on there? That is what I did in the past if they didn't know the head down thing.

Sky ALWAYS used to lift his head to evade me messing with him, but I'm tall so he couldn't escape my touch so he never truly won. Don't give your mare the satisfaction of thinking she won, or it'll get worse.

What else did you mention.... oh the hind foot thing. He tried that crap with me too. Nothing was wrong with him, he was just being rude. For that, just continue to work on it. Don't let go until she stops snatching, and if she's not lifting it in the first place that's when you pop her with the hoofpick or shift her weight to pick it up. 

My horse, before he was mine, used to snatch his feet from farriers, or refuse to pick them up... and they'd get mad but wouldn't really correct him just try and strong-arm him... which wouldn't work and he'd try to kill them.

When I got him as a project (he was still owned by someone else but she wanted me to learn with him.... dumb idea but we got lucky) he was a monster about feet. I wouldn't let him win. If he snatched his foot, he got an immediate whooping and I picked it up and (because I was dumb) growled at him and he would let me have it. 

Now.... just the other day actually, he was loose without any tack on while I RASPED and carved his bars off of his hinds (!!!) so... goes to show that if you work hard, it pays off. 

Re the dog thing, he was looking for an excuse. The real reason she went into a fit was she wasn't focused on her rider. A focused horse is a safer horse. If she is mentally wandering around that's when spooks or violent episodes happen.

Also since she's so green, I wouldn't trust her to stand untied even to do her wraps. Set her up for success until she's more knowledgeable to trust.


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## BiologyBrain (Jul 9, 2015)

New_image said:


> When I tell you she has me puzzled, I am looking for ideas on what to work on, suggestions, not a bunch of "well maybe you just plain cannot handle her, you are not doing her any favors". A. You have no way if knowing this. B. If I was truly failing her, she'd be the first and I would LIKE to work through it and learn. But since no one can judge that from the other side of a computer screen, I am asking for some "for instances" on how YOU would handle her during any one situation.
> :cowboy:


Welcome to the Forum! Unfortunately, the answers you've gotten in the public forum are basically what you will end up with a good bit of the time... You are a) over-horsed, b) under-skilled, c) your horse is spoiled, d) too much of a danger to continue working with by yourself, etc... However, you can definitely start with the inboxes suggestions and assistance. 

I've got experience, but probably not as much a you. However, I guess I can throw my hat in the ring too... I already wrote that I'm dealing with my very own over-reactive mare. As I've worked with her I have figured out that she was spoiled and less trained than I was lead to believe. So I started over from tying forward. We are having great success and it is definitely building and making her a better horse in areas I didn't know she was lacking. 

I'm wondering how she is usually when you want to handle her ears - brushing, patting, etc. If she's usually fine and is fine now, maybe right after her injury she was unreasonably sore. If she isn't good working with her ears and head then I'd start with serious desensitization work on them. Advance and retreat until you can fold her ears up and stick your fingers in them. 

In either case, it is often very helpful to teach a sensitive horse a head-down cue to have an easy relax button on them. You can use regular methods of pressure & release or you could try clicker training depending on how you think she'll respond best. you can even combine both methods, using one method for a while and then reinforce it with the other method. Once she's really solid with this method, you can use it in times of stress like when you need to do something with her head she doesn't want to cooperate to do like medicating or clipping.

Startling and bucking at the dog and other seemingly random things could be a lot of various issues. Is she tense? Does she startle easily all the time or are there only some times or types of things she startles over? Has she spooked at dogs before or since? Have you worked on spooking in place with her? Does she look to you as her leader? When she bucks does she loose her mind? You can transfer the head down calming cue to under-saddle use too. 

I have personally been having great luck with my reactive/spoiled mare by starting her over as if she knew nothing except haltering. I'm not working her specifically with a head down cue or anything, but I'm ensuring she knows I'm the leader and the safest place even if I get after her for misbehavior. My biggest challenge is making sure I don't treat her like a pet. However, since you've already been training like this for a while, that isn't likely going to help you -- unless you have seen some sign that she has some hole in her initial training. 

My mare's training 'holes' were very small and mostly involve her getting away with tiny behaviors that snowball. Also, since she is sensitive and reactive, the round pen tactics of chasing her without emphasis given to relaxation she stores up the tension until it boils over. I can get as harsh as I need to get with her, but I absolutely have to be sure she is 100% relaxed before moving on to the next item on the training list. Sometimes that means leaving her to deal with something that bothers her for a whole day without my interference at all. Other times it just means I have to spend an extra 15-30 minutes doing something.

I have a thread called Success with Starlie or something like that... I'll post a link if I can.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Good points by Sky
Charlie is a very reactive horse, but with correct training, she has learned to both control her reactions and trust my judgement.
Not once did I use treats to train her.
Not only was she reactive, but she suffered an incident that proved to her that she could not absolutely trust me, and had to look out for herself.
Still, with time and correct training, I have her trust back.
I have been told, that having a horse being run into, can be one of the hardest things to over come, as you convinced that horse it could trust your judgement in a crowded arena, and that no horse would run into her/him,as your guidance would prevent that
Well, I was warming her up in a crowded warm up arena,loping just off the rail, when the rider ahead of me, lost control of her horse, which balked suddenly, and then ran backwards
I could not get out of the way in time, so that horse slammed into Charlie;s left rear, with the rider's spurs hooking her in the flank, enough to draw blood
She went back in and won a small western pl class, but then in a large class, panicked when horses came up on her, closely, breaking and trying to run sideways. She felt she had to look out for herself, as I had failed.
Took over a year for her to relax, regain trust in me, and thus could be shown on a loose rein, with horses coming up on her
Point being, even on a reactive horse that has been led to believe she has to look out for herself, you can regain that trust.
First time I bathed her, I had to use a long lead shank with a stud shank, but she got bathed. Now I can run that hose all over, including on her head, and she accepts it
Riding in local indooR arena, she used to react big time, when snow slid off of that roof, or horse outside squealed , or dogs outside barked, or someone suddenly opened a door, ect, ect, ect.
I gave her the benefit of the doubt, as a green horse, and then I got after her for spooking, esp if she tried to fly sideways.
She has learned to both trust me, and also respect my leadership.
There is a place for positive conditioning training, but it alone does not a safe horse create
For instance, if ahorse, that knows how to move off a leg, but instead moves into it, not wanting to sidepass up to a gate, how will you fix that with just positive conditioning?
I will tell you how I do it, with that pressure and release
I will take that horse away from that gate and fix that true problem, making the horse really move off that leg.
I will then give the horse the chance to do the right thing, with light cues. If he does, I will reward with a verbal cue or a scratch on the withers


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

The bottom line is you have to understand where the root of all these problems is coming from, lack of focus, fear.... and then instead of avoiding it you confront it. 

If it's fear, you make them face it. If it's lack of focus, you work to get them focused, and keep them focused.

But I agree with Biology, start over as if they know NOTHING. Do not allow so much trust into this mare until she is more educated.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

I've scrolled through this and will admit to merely skimming it. 
Recently I've had the opportunity to work with a really nervy sensitive little half-arab gelding. It makes some things difficult- a little like the OP is experiencing, but he is more standoffish and shy. But I'd like to point out that sometimes sensitivity is the best possible thing. Today we were working on side-passing in hand and I stood in front of him and held a whip parallel to him, Then I stepped sideways crossing my legs. To my amazement he very carefully took a leg and mirrored me...and he kept doing it both sides.... It had me a lot shocked. I was so used to horses that would have to insist to get that kind of focus , many are not so naturally inquisitive and attentive. I'm just saying there is hope for the sensitive horse, in fact there is a lot of potential. But I think that there is a very important divide between brassy, sassy and reactive and sensitivity, attentiveness...but its also a fine line. Best of luck!


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> You are misunderstanding nor was I being sarcastic..


Not quite sure how you know that I don't understand you?



Yogiwick said:


> Positive means the addition of something (possibly food, hey maybe even a whip!)
> Negative means the removal of something.
> You also have "punishment" vs "reinforcement" as such there are 4 basic methods.
> I'm sure if you do further research you will find that.


No harm in repeating these basic concepts in case some people aren't familiar with them.

However, why do you assume that I am unfamiliar with this stuff and 'need to do further research' in order to have an informed discussion here? Wouldn't it be better and more conducive to positive, informative threads on the forum if you assumed that people in general know what they're talking about, and may indeed have a valid point to make, instead of shooting them down with condescending '¡you don't understand' and 'do some more research comments'?

I honestly don't understand why some of you guys are so defensive about positive reinforcement and trying so hard to dirty it's image. In one of her former posts, the OP mentions that she has received some good advice on the subject in PMs. Doesn't that just sum up the whole problem? No-one can even post here on the subject without bearing the brunt of the snide comments of the anti PR camp. :hide:

No-one here is denying the value of negative reinforcement in horse training, and no-one is saying to ONLY use positive reiniforcement. All that I have said is that to try using positive reinforcement AS WELL as negative. What is so bad about that to start up all these snide comments about givign treats?



Yogiwick said:


> Nothing wrong with using food at appropriate points in training or as a treat. I don't think you should rely on that (agree with Smilie, proper training is a combination of methods) but that's irrelevant to what I said, I was pointing out the misuse of the term that is all. It's not about renaming, it's about calling a treat a treat.


You're still willfully twisting the treat thing to fit your own agenda. A treat is food given just because, with no ulterior motive. Positive reinforcement is giving an agreeable stimulus - that is often food, but not necessarily - at a precise instant in order to reinforce an action on the horse's part. I'm sure if you did some more research, you might get to understand that ;-)

So agreed, a treat is a treat.... But positive reinforcement is NOT the same as giving treats.



Yogiwick said:


> You cannot clump positive into giving food and negative into hitting with a whip... doesn't leave you many options!!


I am quite aware that hitting with a whip is positive punishment rather than negative reinforcement. I slipped that one in to see if you would pick up on it. And that negative doesn't mean bad, and that positive doesn't mean good... 



Yogiwick said:


> Using food is a very different method in horses as it tends to get them into more of a reactive mindset than a thinking mindset.


I find the opposite is true to what you say here. If my horse is having a nervous moment, food brings her back to me and centres her on me 500% more effectively than making me move her feet. It distracts her from her nervousness. And no, I don't mean just stuffing her with treats whenever she's nervous. Yes, I do realise that doing that would be rewarding her nervousness and would make her rapidly worse. What I do is give her my head-down cue, which she is eager to respond to BECAUSE I have taught it to her using PR, and when she responds correctly she gets her reward. I have tried getting her back to me by getting her feet moving, and the results arer poor. After all, when she is nervous, moving her feet extremely fast is EXACTLY what she wants to do, so me asking her to do it, but in a controlled fashion, is neither relaxing nor a distraction for her. 




Yogiwick said:


> I also know several very poorly trained horses where people used food simply because the horse just assumed they were "above" that food machine since they knew all the buttons.


And I'm sure we all know of many poorly trained horses that have been trained using pressure and release. But that doesn't mean that pressure and release sucks as a training method. Nor am I going to be so darn stupid as to imply that here when it's blatantly not true. 

How about thinking of how many well-trained horses you know whose owners use positive reinforcement at times? 



Yogiwick said:


> Like I said, you want to use food fine, just say that. Lack of using food as a training method doesn't mean I beat my horses!
> 
> Personally I think this mare will figure out very quickly that if you are a food machine you are there to please her and lose respect.


I haven't implied anywhere that you are a bad horse trainer because you don't use PR, nor that you beat your horses. However, you constantly imply that I am training my horse badly because I do use PR. And that intolerant attitude is what I find so inacceptable. Combined with the way you twist my words in your constant smear campaign against using food in training.

Why can't you just agree to differ?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Bondre said:


> Not quite sure how you know that I don't understand you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not going to respond to all of this because it comes down to the last line where I CAN agree to differ, there IS no "constant smear campaign"... I made what one post aside from pointing out that PR does not equal treat? Simply your "scientific quote" did not seem in line with the information I showed you, you say things that make it sound like you understand and then you say things that make it sound like you don't.

I don't mean to imply you are training your horses badly at all. I think good training is a mixture of PR/NR/PP/NP with some more applicable than others. I do think food specifically can be used in training within reason but think it is often overused. I don't care if you want to use it with your horse, it's your horse, I don't care if the OP wants to try it, it's her horse. I just don't think it will help in this situation.

I _completely _agree that good training has positive reinforcement, absolutely!! I use it _all _the time!! I'd say I use it just as much as NR.I just don't use treats (often) how does that mean I am "anti PR"?? I think you posted expecting to get jumped on (I don't know why) and when I responded you responded as if you'd been jumped on... _I_ don't like being jumped on for saying something other than "hear hear" :/.

What people don't understand is that positive doesn't mean "good" and negative doesn't mean "bad", nor "reward" and "punishment" etc..

I rode my horse today. She got lots of verbal praise, scratches, treats, etc. Who says I don't use PR? Every time I am working with a green animal I (typically) ask with negative reinforcement (release of pressure as a reward) and the instant they release that pressure they not only get the release but they get praise (not food) from me, now with a better trained animal the praise gets cut back (not that I don't praise of course) but the amount of pressure gets cut back as does the release of pressure creating a very light responsive animal that is HAPPY to please ME.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

lostastirrup said:


> I've scrolled through this and will admit to merely skimming it.
> Recently I've had the opportunity to work with a really nervy sensitive little half-arab gelding. It makes some things difficult- a little like the OP is experiencing, but he is more standoffish and shy. But I'd like to point out that sometimes sensitivity is the best possible thing. Today we were working on side-passing in hand and I stood in front of him and held a whip parallel to him, Then I stepped sideways crossing my legs. To my amazement he very carefully took a leg and mirrored me...and he kept doing it both sides.... It had me a lot shocked. I was so used to horses that would have to insist to get that kind of focus , many are not so naturally inquisitive and attentive. I'm just saying there is hope for the sensitive horse, in fact there is a lot of potential. But I think that there is a very important divide between brassy, sassy and reactive and sensitivity, attentiveness...but its also a fine line. Best of luck!


Agree that sensitivity in a performance horse is a positive. These are the horses that very quickly learn to respond to very light cues.
Many cutting horses, for example, are very 'feely', which they have to be, but makes them a horse not suitable for an entry level pleasure rider

One aLSO has to distinguish between a horse that is reactive/sensitive from a horse that is spoiled
A sensitive horse might scoot halfway across the arena, when leg is applied, but he is not resisting cues, bucking, charging people etc
I do use PR, but I don't really see application for this horse.
I can even concede using treats, to ensure a scared horse that he chose the right thing. Maybe, it could have had some application in that clipper session
On the other hand, you don't give PR to a horse that decides to buck, or charge people
Yes, you can go back to basics, because that horse might be bucking because he does not understand what is being asked, and was rushed, far as riding


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wouldn't treat this horse as if its spoilt and naughty but treat it as a horse that's got really poor self control and over reacts under pressure
You will never get good results using forceful methods or aggression on an over reactive horse because it just makes them worse
Anyone who'd had a horse like this would know that
Horses have to learn self control for themselves and that takes as much time as it takes - you push them too hard and you're back to square one
When they did stress level tests on horses being introduced to clippers for the first time the ones that didn't act up had exactly the same stress level results as those that did - they just had better self control
When someone suggested using clicker training on a horse we bought that was just as bad as the OP's I'd never heard of it before but instead of sneering at the idea because I'd never used it I tried it and saw positive results very quickly. Getting insistent and confrontational with her did no good at all but using CT and positive reinforcement I now have a horse that can be clipped, have its dental work done, shots and blood tests, ride where you point her etc without ever having to use any force at all


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

> You will never get good results using forceful methods or aggression on an over reactive horse because it just makes them worse
> 
> Getting insistent and confrontational with her did no good at all


COMPLETELY agree, this is what I meant by saying the OP may be being too "harsh". This mare is clearly very happy to fight back and upping the anti will just make it worse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I wouldn't treat this horse as if its spoilt and naughty but treat it as a horse that's got really poor self control and over reacts under pressure
> You will never get good results using forceful methods or aggression on an over reactive horse because it just makes them worse
> Anyone who'd had a horse like this would know that
> Horses have to learn self control for themselves and that takes as much time as it takes - you push them too hard and you're back to square one
> ...


As someone who HAS owned horses like this, note that I said using treats for clipping, plus the advance and retreat might work.
I also said the horse might have been pushed, so to go back to square one.
However, if a horse comes at me, 'with all four feet', that deserves action, so that horse never considers doing so again
I would also evaluate whether that horse is bucking out of true fear/confusion, being green, with not enough basics, or if the horse is using any excuse to buck-even objects it is not frightened of, as the Op suggested
That is what being a horse person is about-truly evaluating the basis a-of any behavior then applying PR or NR or a combo.
I also stated that 'we' have not seen as to how the Op handles this horse, thus I for one, get mixed messages, reading between the lines.
I see a spoiled horse, possibly, but also could very well be a horse that was never given the correct basics, and ridden before she was ready, by someone not really knowing as to what they are doing
A a horse that will not be led through a puddle is not solid on leading.
None of us here is actually seeing this horse, nor how she is being handled or ridden, or even able to evaluate if she even knows how to give to pressure correctly
JUst because the OP labels this horse as 'reactive' does not make it necessarily so. The horse COULD be 'reactive' because she is confused, lacks proper basics, ect 
She could be a horse that just lacks respect-as coming at people, certainly suggests
For instance-if a horse bucks out of true fear-you go back to basics, including gaining that trust and softness.
On the other hand, if the horse is using bucking to get out of work, intimidate a rider, then you have to make that bucking the wrong thing to do.

I have actually had several reactive horses, esp before I learned not to cross out to halter horses. Yes, you use a different approach, then with a less reactive horse, but there are still boundaries that horse is not allowed to cross, and one is aggression towards people.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From original post
'he is young and green in the saddle but generally she is calm, lazy and she is very handled. These out burst are not the majority but are becoming more regular the older she gets

Now, I don't know about you Jaydee, but I get a confused message here!
We have a horse that is generally calm, even lazy, and sorry, that is not how a truly reactive horse is-ever, until they learn to trust and dampen their reactions.

Outbursts are getting worse- so sounds possibly like a horse that has learned to test-or, of course, pushed, thus confused


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I wouldn't treat this horse as if its spoilt and naughty but treat it as a horse that's got really poor self control and over reacts under pressure
> You will never get good results using forceful methods or aggression on an over reactive horse because it just makes them worse
> Anyone who'd had a horse like this would know that
> Horses have to learn self control for themselves and that takes as much time as it takes - you push them too hard and you're back to square one
> When they did stress level tests on horses being introduced to clippers for the first time the ones that didn't act up had exactly the same stress level results as those that did - they just had better self control



I hope you didn't think I was saying to treat the horse harshly...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I hope you didn't think I was saying to treat the horse harshly...


No I didn't.


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