# Why the word "Bonding" makes me wince!



## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

I cannot possibly be the only adult who winces when I hear the word _“bonding”_ as it pertains to horses.

The instant I see it written or hear it spoken I assume that the person has to be some magical-thinking, horse crazy young girl who has grown up on a diet of My Pretty Pony and Walt Disney horse movies.Usually I’m hearing something like _“I’m having trouble bonding with my horse and I’m afraid he doesn’t love me but mommy won’t let me get a new one”_ or, even wo_rse “Princess loves me and we have bonded so she would never, ever hurt me”_It actually makes me cringe!I’m thinking, geez kid this isn’t some lovey-dovey, ‘hearts& flowers’ relationship!This is a 1000lb animal that can and sometimes will throw you across the aisleway or crush you like a bug with no warning.Fortunately I rarely hear an experienced, adult horsewoman or horseman use the word bonding in describing their relationship with horses.

Even growing up a horse obsessed little girl I _never_ heard the word bonding used and understood quite quickly that horses were nothing like dogs with their _“I live to please you”_ attitude. 

Heck, I have often thought that if a person really wants to feel unconditional love from an animal, they’d stick with dogs instead of horses _or humans_!They sure are the only ones running to the door wagging their tails when_ I_ come home.And, most importantly they have been selected and bred for only two things: the desire to guard us and our property and the ability to show us affection.A horse is a whole other story.Domesticated to work and serve us, not to be affectionate or loving.

So kids, here’s the hard truth.Don’t be sad because you think you aren’t “bonding” with your horse.They simply don’t think that way.

Yes, a horse will learn to recognize us and many times even the vehicles we drive.They will whinny at us, act excited to see us and maybe ask to be let out but this _is not love._When we ascribe human emotions to animals we tend to misunderstand the true nature of the relationship. 

At best, we can teach a horse to trust us, respect us as _their boss mare_ and enjoy all the good things we can provide them even if it’s as simple as a treat, feeding or a head scratching.A horse that has been treated badly or is naturally standoffish can learn that humans aren’t such bad creatures to be around and can learn to trust.

Try to accept trust and respect as a pretty good alternative to all this talk about “bonding”.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Trying to "bond" with horses is dangerous period. They are not pets. They are work animals.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I too can stand this "bond". A simple search on Instagram will reveil teens literally SPOONING THEIR HORSES (like laying between their legs) while they are laying down. And they do things like lay under their horse and let them put their hoof on their head or stomach. When asked why they are doing it or told that it's dangerous they already respond that "_____ would never hurt me! We have a bond! " or "your not a real horseman unless you trust your horse and of your not doing this your not a real horse person". Then it's typically followed by some vulgar cursing and name calling...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

SlideStop said:


> I too can stand this "bond". A simple search on Instagram will reveil teens literally SPOONING THEIR HORSES (like laying between their legs) while they are laying down. And they do things like lay under their horse and let them put their hoof on their head or stomach. When asked why they are doing it or told that it's dangerous they already respond that "_____ would never hurt me! We have a bond! " or "your not a real horseman unless you trust your horse and of your not doing this your not a real horse person". Then it's typically followed by some vulgar cursing and name calling...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or the people on instagram with their horse "hugging" them.

We have media to blame for this. "Black Beauty", "Flicka". Are allllll to blame


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I don't have a problem with the term bond. A bond can be a lot of different things. You can call yourself the alpha mare and do that sort of silly baloney that could get you kill. Don't hate the term hate the actions. As Shakespeare wrote "What is in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" and as Forrest Gump said "stupid is as stupid does". 

I think there are "bonds" that exist between horse and rider. To me a bond is one in which your horse performs an action even though you have miscued or been late in a cute. Think a show jumper who has their rider misjudge striding but still gets them both over the jump. This bond is the result of hours of work and work is the key word. The problem is that some people think that a bond is the result of giving a horse whatever it wants. This gives the rider a false sense of security. To me a bond with your horse is when your horse goes above and beyond what you have asked because you have consistently asked for a behavior. The horse gets it right even though you bungled the request. The result of you both knowing the lines and expectations.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

SlideStop said:


> I too can stand this "bond". A simple search on Instagram will reveil teens literally SPOONING THEIR HORSES (like laying between their legs) while they are laying down. And they do things like lay under their horse and let them put their hoof on their head or stomach. When asked why they are doing it or told that it's dangerous they already respond that "_____ would never hurt me! We have a bond! " or "your not a real horseman unless you trust your horse and of your not doing this your not a real horse person". Then it's typically followed by some vulgar cursing and name calling...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You will never be a REAL OLD horseman pulling all that crap, that's for sure.


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## ChevysMyBoy (Jan 2, 2013)

I feel like some of what your saying isn't entirely true. Like, yes- all that horse spooning, and hugging, and whatever is just *dumb and dangerous*! But, I feel like you can have a bond with a horse. Like, yeah. they aren't going to roll on their backs waiting for a tummy rub but they do, in my opinion, love people. People don't breed highly aggressive horses who 'look pretty'. Its unethical. You don't get on a horse without having some level of trust in them. They are our horses and we are their humans.

In my opinion, my horse loves me. If not love, he likes me…a lot! Horses are not _just_ work animals. Chevy is my companion, parter, and best friend and I would have to say that we make a great team. The people who don't feel that way about their horses seem to have a relationship with their horses that isn't even close to as strong as I have with Chevy. They are a part of ALL of our lives and for many equestrians, they make our lives whole. I feel like if you give a horse enough TLC, eventually they will care for you. 

Here are horses who have saved their owners lives. I feel that if they save their owners life, they love them at least the teensiest tiny bit. Or at least see them a member of the 'herd' and, ya know what, that's enough for me.

Horses Saving Human Lives?! Horse Heros. | Horse and Man


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I think humans are the ones who need the companionship, not the horses. Horses don't actively seek out approval like dogs do. Horses don't want to crawl into your lap and cuddle. You are NOT that horses companion. You're the thing that feeds it and sits on it's back. Humans are the ones who do all the caring, not the horses. 

I don't think horses have the capacity to "care". Caring takes rationalization, which horses don't have the ability to do. They don't have the ability to give two craps about any other animal outside their own basic herd/maternal instincts. That horse would be just as happy without you as it is with you. 

Yes horses give us meaning, horses give us a reason to get up everyday, shoot horses even saved my life. But I am not foolish enough to think that they "appreciate me", or even think of me in that way. Even rescue horses, they are happy.....to be fed. Horses don't have the capacity to understand outside their own basic instincts and needs. They just don't. 

People fail to realize that horse companion relationships are one sides relationships. YOU are the one who needs the horse's company, that horse would be just fine without you. That horse doesn't care for you, it's only used to you. It's nice to think that horses give back the compassion we give them, but it's simply not the case. 

The most bonding you ever get out of a horse is when you have a horse really tuned in. The horse knows what you expect when you expect it and behaves accordingly. Now THAT is the kind of bond I like. A horse that respects me and listens.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I'd like so see The Black Stallion pulled from shelves. One young gal of 12 had this idea she could "tame" my big gelding. She was taking lessons but no matter what I told her about equine behaviour she tuned me out and seemed to think she knew better than I. One day said horse nipped her. The timing was wonderful because I was about to tell her I wouldn't be able to teach her any more. The nip was her wakeup call and she was then willing to listen to what I said.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

When I see the "b" word here on some thread….I picture butterfly farts and unicorns. What a load of carp.

I think this is what some horses think of the "my little pony" syndrome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq6S4T7QcDI


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## Maryland Rider (Jul 2, 2013)

Don't forget the other term "Join Up" :rofl:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I strongly believe you should ride the training, not the bond - but that doesn't make a bond evil or nonsensical. I have told people before that if they wanted a bond, they should get a dog...and yet...

Mia & Lilly were corral mates for about 4 years. When we sold Lilly - to a lady who lives about 2 miles from here - Mia stood against the part of the corral closest to where she last saw Lilly and whinnied and nickered thru the afternoon and into the night. The next day, less so. After 3 days, she stopped going there and calling. When she saw Lilly about 2 years later, they weren't entirely certain where they knew each other from, but they definitely were very curious about each other - and Mia is afraid of strange horses!

Caring? If not, she sure faked it well.

It is much less so with horses to humans, IMHO. Still, as you own them & ride them & spend time around them, you will find you interact easily with some and with difficulty with others. Trooper is better trained than Mia, and will obey me more consistently - or used to, although Mia has improved a lot - but Trooper takes no pleasure in my company. Trooper thinks my youngest daughter is a minor deity, and he is the only horse she is interested in riding, but Trooper wouldn't give a rat's rear if I fell off the end of the world. I'm pretty sure he'd give me a nudge...

Mia seems to enjoy my company, at least somewhat. Part of it is that she is a nervous horse, and she feels safer around me than anyone else. Part of it is that she has obviously been taken care of by humans, because she thinks generic humans do good things for horses. But while Trooper will say, "Waiting for orders. I'll do what I must!", Mia will say, "What are WE doing today?"

She acted that way even back when she was a spook monster, who bolted and spun and squirted diarrhea like crazy...so no, a "bond" does NOT make you safe. She was dangerous for me to ride, even while 'liking' me. But honestly, if I didn't feel some connection to her, I'd have sold her off years ago!

I hate the way "bond" is used and sold. But that doesn't mean horses have no more feelings than a motorcycle. If that was true, I'd be out of horses by now. Hay is $17/bale, and we expect it to break $22 this winter. The horses cost too much if they are just tools.

A few years ago, I was digging a small ditch across the corral. I started in the middle, and worked both ways out. As I was working, Mia came over and watched for about 5 minutes. She sniffed the shallow ditch in obvious puzzlement. Then she went to the far end of the ditch, and began pawing at it, swapping front feet about once/minute. She wasn't a very good digger, but she was trying. I don't know what others would call that, but it kind of seems like a bond to me. :?


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> I don't think horses have the capacity to "care". Caring takes rationalization, which horses don't have the ability to do.


 I hate all the ridiculous "bonding", Disney mumbo jumbo too, but I don't agree that they are just work animals capable of nothing but trust and respect. For example, I had a mare that for whatever reason chose to trust me. She had been beaten up and sold drugged at a sale. I never coddled her, she was very respectful, great under saddle, did whatever I asked, just a reactive type. I had dropped her lead on the ground and she was grazing after a ground work session, and I was crouched down, checking something out. Someone had left the gate open and the whole herd unexpectedly came running right at us. She sidepassed over top of me and stood there while her buddies ran by, making sure I was safe.
So explain that one to me? Cant chalk it up to respect or trust, it wasn't a job or something she was ever trained for, and it went against her natural instinct. 

I think horses can form relationships with other horses and sometimes other animals, like people. is it a "bond" like Disney? Nope. But it is more than a respectful animal that views you as a strange sort of food dispensing leader.

Take Pickles as an example. I was selling a broodmare for my bo. A reputable breeder offered to trade a two year old for her. We're standing in a massive field of hundreds of acres with 10-15 10 month-3 year old fillies. All had minimal handling and people experience, only there for the grain in piles on the ground 30' away from us. There were 4 of us there, and this ridiculous looking 10 month old, pot bellied baby walked over, stood right next to me and let me put my arm around her. One of the ugliest babies I've ever seen. I really didn't want her. So why me? She ignored 3 other people, and left her feed to stand with me, and I had nothing to give her. My BO bought her and told me I had to have her. She's been the easiest horse to train I've ever owned. She steals the BO's gloves and fencing equipment and dumps it in the waterer, tries to undress guests wearing interesting sweaters. Never has tried any of that on me. So why?


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

It's a shame that this term - "bonding"- is so often mixed with naive ideals, lack of common sense and humanizing a horse. It undoubtedly leads to dangerous situations and it scares me how many people claim to have a bond, yet lack basic horsemanship knowledge or even a clue about herd psychology, safety around horses, etc.

However, horses are strongly motivated by their herd instincts and, if a person approaches them just right, they are open to seek a relationship - or a bond, if I may. They do have their emotions, their choices, their likes and dislikes, and they may as well choose to open more to a special person, if an intuitive approach is combined with good skills, common sense, timing, etc. Bonds should not be idealized, romanticized and taken out of context. They are a result of the right actions at the right time, of mutual trust, of a healthy dose of respect, of motivating the horse just right.

Me? I'll just let myself to stir everything up a little and say that I have a bond with my boy. It was born very soon after our paths crossed, just by knowing he'll be a very special horse in my life (don't you sometimes get this unmistakeable feeling?), and by observing his attitude towards me. Nevertheless, countless hours of both work and even more of just being by his side at the pastures are what actually made the bond work. Had I just implied that he must like me as I liked him back then, I might as well not be around anymore.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

As with any other animal, horses have their own personalities. Likes and dislikes. Some horses you can really push on, others not so much. Some horses prefer apples over carrots, some don't like either of them. Horses are unique in themselves.

Obviously horses will work with certain people better than others. Because their character traits click better. Some horses prefer females to males, shy types over outgoing types, etc. I firmly believe they see and sense body language we don't even know we are displaying. Since that is how they communicate with each other after all. 

I hope that puts some sort of an answer to your "why" Blue.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm with you. 99% of the time, the word "bond" implies the rainbow farts and all that jazz.

HOWEVER, there are some true instances of bonding that doesn't follow that implication. Those of you who have known me for very long would likely agree that I can't stand that "my horsey LUVS me" crap, but I believe that a horse can and will bond with a person.

I have a special bond with Dobe. He can be obnoxious and frustrating at times, but nobody would ever say that he's spoiled in his behavior. He'll tolerate being ridden and handled by others but he and I just sort of "fit", you know?

All that being said though, there cannot be a "bond" without a basis of mutual respect there.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I kept several of my horses for more than 20 years of their lives. I trusted them to campaign with them. I trusted them to carry my students. I trusted them to carry my DD's, even when young, on very long trail rides.
I have NEVER thought it was a good idea to sit down underneath ANY of my horses. It's not that I didn't trust them, but a small move for a horse can accidentally be a big HURT for me.
Love your horses. Groom them, pet them, ride them. Show them kindness. If you want a bonding animal, get a puppy. Then you can lavish love on an animal while you're watching tv.


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## PaintingPintos (Jul 24, 2012)

Why must we throw out bonding completely? Bonding does not always mean that you need a dog salivating at your very presence, it can merely mean a forming of trust and expectations of eachother.

Though I know it's because she learned that I would not hurt her, I had an incredibly trusting mare....she was abused when she arrived at the barn to be boarded. Hated people, despised them all. Would kick, bite, rear, charge if you approached her with a saddle or even a halter. Her owner dumped her there eventually after she disappeared and stopped paying board.

I wanted a challenge so I took her under my wing. In a few weeks she went from squishing me against the gate and biting me when I tried to pet her, to following me around without a single rope or bit of tack on her. In another few weeks I got a halter, lead rope, and myself on her. I rode her around for 15 minutes, letting her choose the course. She didn't mind, and the next day when I arrived with the halter she walked up to the fence to greet me. I was one of the few people that had treated her kindly and consistently. I ended up spending hours and hours a day at the barn-- the horses have free choice to go into the stable, into the stalls, or go out to 20 acres of pasture and woods. I'd follow the herd around and sit in the grass and let the horses sniff me. I wasn't a threat to them, they would approach me for petting and scratching, they didn't mind my presence.

I'll let you know that I didn't use treats as a reward, she wasn't food motivated, she was driven by pressure like all horses are. Pressure pressure pressure and then when she did what was expected she would get a release of pressure. That's not to say that I would go out in the field and chase her until she obeyed me, but I'm saying I would give her opportunities to do things, then if she ignored them all, I'd make it harder for her. "Fine, if you don't want to do this the easy way, you just picked the hard way" 

It wasn't hard. The horse trusted me. She would fall asleep when I was grooming her, she'd let me lean on her (once I was waiting for her to have her hooves trimmed, and I was standing in the stall with her while leaning on her, and it took a long time so I ended up falling asleep on her, lol), stand behind her and comb/braid her tail, I could really do anything I wanted. Bonding doesn't mean that the horse adores you with all its heart, the horse doesn't have to be a Disney character, it just has to TRUST you. It's just all about trust and leadership...


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## PaintingPintos (Jul 24, 2012)

Saranda said:


> It's a shame that this term - "bonding"- is so often mixed with naive ideals, lack of common sense and humanizing a horse. It undoubtedly leads to dangerous situations and it scares me how many people claim to have a bond, yet lack basic horsemanship knowledge or even a clue about herd psychology, safety around horses, etc.
> 
> However, horses are strongly motivated by their herd instincts and, if a person approaches them just right, they are open to seek a relationship - or a bond, if I may. They do have their emotions, their choices, their likes and dislikes, and they may as well choose to open more to a special person, if an intuitive approach is combined with good skills, common sense, timing, etc. Bonds should not be idealized, romanticized and taken out of context. They are a result of the right actions at the right time, of mutual trust, of a healthy dose of respect, of motivating the horse just right.
> 
> Me? I'll just let myself to stir everything up a little and say that I have a bond with my boy. It was born very soon after our paths crossed, just by knowing he'll be a very special horse in my life (don't you sometimes get this unmistakeable feeling?), and by observing his attitude towards me. Nevertheless, countless hours of both work and even more of just being by his side at the pastures are what actually made the bond work. Had I just implied that he must like me as I liked him back then, I might as well not be around anymore.


I absolutely agree with you. He must have really learned to trust you. Also, I adore your profile picture. That looks like a bond to me


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Thank you.  When this picture was taken, we visited the sea for the first time together. I had set him at liberty to which he responded with lovely responsiveness to anything I proposed, and, at last, fell asleep by my side as I had decided to sit by the shore.


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

> When I see the "b" word here on some thread….I picture butterfly farts and unicorns. What a load of carp.


My laptop screen almost wore Fruitopia when I read that XD


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> I'd like so see The Black Stallion pulled from shelves.


Oh give me a break. It's FICTION! If you banned every fiction book that wasn't realistic, how many would you have left? NONE! It's up to parents to teach their kids the difference between stories and reality.

As for "bonding" with a horse, lying with your horse might be dangerous, but so is riding! I hate it when people allow their horse to have dangerous habits because they think the horse is "playing." But otherwise I don't see why all the negativity is necessary. In fact if you don't want a bond with your horse then why not get a motorbike instead?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll toss this out mainly because I think it is a neat old picture. It comes from a documentary abut the British Cavalry during WW1 (yes, one). The British brought in over 100,000 horses in months, and mostly trained city boys to ride them and use them. In one part, they noted how many of the 18-19 year old boys were seeing death around them, and took refuge in the comfort of their horse. In like manner, the documentary said, horses came to view 'their human' as the only sanity in a world gone mad. This picture was taken close to the front lines, although out of range of the shells. The man's unit was expected to receive orders to the front shortly. Both horse and man had been on the front before. But for a few minutes, both horse and human took comfort from the closeness of the only sane constant in their lives:








​ 
That isn't the "War Horse" sort of movie bond, and it may have been more human-->horse than horse--> human, but surely two animals who trust each other can take some comfort from being with each other?

That said, I think mutual trust is a huge factor, as is respect for each other for what each individual is. Mia, for example, likes me nearby...but she doesn't have any desire to get lovey-dovey. I think one of the reasons she is comfortable with me is that I don't try to hug her, pet her or do other things that I will do with my dogs.

Unhappily, when I hear the word bond combined with horses, it usually is something along: "I have this incredible bond with my horse, but he's bit me twice and I don't know why..."


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> I'd like so see The Black Stallion pulled from shelves


 lets ban that you tube freestyle of stacy Westfall's freestyle too. I wonder how many idiotic teenagers with no self preservation instinct have tried that one with bad results?


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## SummerShy (Aug 3, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Oh give me a break. It's FICTION! If you banned every fiction book that wasn't realistic, how many would you have left? NONE! It's up to parents to teach their kids the difference between stories and reality.
> 
> As for "bonding" with a horse, lying with your horse might be dangerous, but so is riding! I hate it when people allow their horse to have dangerous habits because they think the horse is "playing." But otherwise I don't see why all the negativity is necessary. In fact if you don't want a bond with your horse then why not get a motorbike instead?



This. :clap:


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## SummerShy (Aug 3, 2014)

BlueSpark said:


> lets ban that you tube freestyle of stacy Westfall's freestyle too. I wonder how many idiotic teenagers with no self preservation instinct have tried that one with bad results?



Probably not as many as you think. Don't you know teenagers are all vain and therefore require all the latest and most fashionable & expensive horse tack out there? I can't picture a bunch of them willing to go without their fancy bling bling halters and saddles.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Ponyboy, I hope you are using that name because you are a boy. A boy would not fantasize about the black stallion like young girls do. It is when this fantasy gets mixed up with reality that these little girls can get hurt around horses and no one wants that to happen.


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## Maryland Rider (Jul 2, 2013)

All the bonding and joining up put to the wayside!

Do my horses like me, yes when I have food or treats.
With nothing in hand and I walk through their turf, they will follow.
Me and a bail of hay, I raise my hand high and make a noise, they wait.

I do have an extremely good working relationship with my horse.
I spent 3 years reaching this point and the last 3 years enjoying it.

We don't lay on the ground together and take a nap.
Some nights when camping all 4 are laying down sleeping.
They notice me walk by and don't get up, part of our trust.
I may give one a scratch as I pass by though.

Yeah, I have been known to spoil them.
Some apples and some carrots or treats.
Stiff brush to get their itchy spots they like.
I am not cold, I do show them affection.

I still stay away from their backside, you know, the business end.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> Ponyboy, I hope you are using that name because you are a boy. A boy would not fantasize about the black stallion like young girls do. It is when this fantasy gets mixed up with reality that these little girls can get hurt around horses and no one wants that to happen.


THIS

Girls are so much more emotionally driven than boys. 

An I'm sitting here like :shock: when I read "whats the big deal about people bonding?" HUMANIZING is the big deal. This is a very real problem and gets people hurt more often than not. Little girls thinking they can train a wild mustang because they can "bond" with them. People justifying bad behavior by making humanizing excuses. 

Or even worse, people taking horse's actions personally. Which results in anger and usually winds up getting someone hurt. "Why would he do that?! I thought he loved me" etc. 

No, I'm sorry. There is so much wrong with people trying to bond with an animal who is incapable of bonding at the level we do. It gives people unrealistic expectations and can get people into very dangerous situations.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I only hear "bonding" from newbies or not very skilled horse people. Bonding, to me, is what a mother does with her newborn baby.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

waresbear said:


> I only hear "bonding" from newbies or not very skilled horse people. Bonding, to me, is what a mother does with her newborn baby.


 Also in reference to .Delete.'s earlier post about horses not being able to rationalize and in turn not being able to care. While for the most part I agree I think horses can and sometimes do form strong relationships with other horses animals and humans. 
For example my husbands mare has become extremely attached to my husband and one of the other mares in the little "herd". If I take her friend away even though shes not alone in the pasture she will work herself up so much that she will be drenched in sweat from running the fence. And when I bring her friend back she nickers to her and smells her all over while sticking to her like glue.(note: she is NOT really herd bound and if I take her away from her friend she is fine it is just when her friend is taken away from her).

Now this same mare will in my opinion actually become depressed if my husband doesnt come to see her at least every other day. If he doesnt see her for two day you can tell she just looks "down". By the third day she will stop eating and it continues to get worse from there. When he does come see her you can see her eyes brighten and she will nicker and whinny to him.(that to me says she has at least formed a "bond" with him).

Also more on the note of waresbear's post. A friend of mine, who breeds Appys, had a mare(maiden) that had a perfect foaling with a beautiful little colt as a result. A month later there was severe flash flooding and the foal drowned in the creek. The mare ran the creek every day for WEEKS calling for her foal, she rejected orphan foals that were brought to help her, and started losing weight as she wouldn't eat or drink. They tried bringing her in but she would break out of her stall(even while sedated) and run to the creek. They put her down because she was wasting away and they couldn't help her.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh my, that is so sad!


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

Chasin Ponies said:


> _ “Princess loves me and we have bonded so she would never, ever hurt me”_


I hear and read excuses like this and it just makes me shudder. It's akin to hearing excuses and justifications for an abusive husband/boyfriend. 

Horses can very well kill you instantaneously whether it be intentional or accidental.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

waresbear said:


> Oh my, that is so sad!


I agree to me that momma was heartbroken. Just as some people give up on life when a loved one passes that momma gave up on everything except trying to find her baby. And no one can tell me that mare didn't care her baby was gone.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

When I was a teen I had the same teen fantasies as these young girls do. We didn't call it bonding per se, but we all had that fantasy. It was part and parcel of the time and was a beautiful thing for that time. I don't think a person should denigrate the idea of a bond. It may be a fantasy, but it's part of being a teen girl who's crazy about horses. She'll grow out of it in time and there's no sense in rushing her past that.

Of course, there is the matter of safety. a girl needs to know how to act with a horse in a manner that is safe. Inasmuch as the bonding fantasy stands between her and safe interaction with the horse it needs to be tempered with common sense and knowledge. However, making fun of this idea of bonding is simply making fun of a child's time in life and how they think and feel.


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## littlebird (Jan 22, 2014)

Saddlebag said:


> Ponyboy, I hope you are using that name because you are a boy. A boy would not fantasize about the black stallion like young girls do. It is when this fantasy gets mixed up with reality that these little girls can get hurt around horses and no one wants that to happen.


I feel that this is sexist. 

Are you forgetting that it was a BOY who rode the Black Stallion?


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## Jumping4Joy (Jan 29, 2014)

This🙏^^ it honestly makes me sad when people think that boys are not as emotional as girls. Just because society TELLS boys to be ashamed of expressing emotions and that it's acting "feminine" by showing them. Boys have emotions too, you know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xJumperx (Feb 19, 2012)

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize if I'm just way off base here.

I wouldn't go to say that there is absolutely no compassion from horse to rider/owner. Horses are NOT emotionless, stagnant creatures. They are herd-oriented type animals, and while much of that is status and rank, it is cold to believe that every horse feels nothing towards every living creature. I'm sure that horses DO have some sort of connection towards their caretakers and peers. Do I think it is the same type of relationship/connection/emotion we feel? No. I but I do think there is a big difference in the connections between my OTTB that trusts me, and the flighty Warmblood at my friend's barn that didn't know me from Adam's cat. 

I think the term "bonding" has been taken to the extreme by the hoof-on-head and other INSANE teenagers who thinks their pony wuvs dem sooooo much. In short, do I think there is a bond between horse and owner? Yes. Do I think it is something you should test your life with, and act like your pony is a person with? ***NO.***

Basically, I agree with everything danicelia24 said wholeheartedly.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

...I've read studies that prove that woman are more emotionally driven than boys. There is nothing wrong with it. Certainly there is the exception to the rule.


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## ChevysMyBoy (Jan 2, 2013)

I feel like there are different forms of bonding, like there are different forms of love. You love your horse, but you also love your child. If it came to a situation to save one or the other, you'd obviously save the child. The degree's of love and bonding vary. A mother and her child have a bond while a horse and his owner/caretaker have a form of another.

I would never be the girl to sit under her horse or so something foolish like that. However, I do feel like my horse sees me as a herd member or something. He is a 12 year old gelding and at a recent show a horse got loose and that mare hit my gelding twice. After the second time he started nudging me towards the exit gate at he used his body almost as a shield for me. Now, this may have very well be oddly timed situations, but Chevy seemed to _purposely_ move to be between me and that other horse. But, who knows. I just feel like seeing the other side of things may help with your own perspectives.


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## littlebird (Jan 22, 2014)

.Delete. said:


> ...I've read studies that prove that woman are more emotionally driven than boys. There is nothing wrong with it. Certainly there is the exception to the rule.


Gender-based studies are notoriously unreliable. Most social and cultural studies in general are notoriously unreliable and usually just make nice headlines and clickbait.

I had to explain to a teen girl once that locking her friend (who was a boy) in a room with no windows and no lights was not nice and that boys get scared too. She seemed genuinely shocked that the boy who had been locked in agreed with me.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

When I read a post with the word bond in it, I usually stop reading to avoid frustration.

With that said, I wish I could spend a day actually feeling how/what they feel, when they feel it, and why they feel it.

I do believe they feel joy. Hence the bucking and farting on a cool morning.

I believe they can feel protective. They will protect a herd buddy from a herd bully.

I believe they feel like. Why else would a horse leaves his herd to come to his human?

I believe they know intent. When you hit them to kill one of those b-52's that has landed on them. They don't even flinch or get upset. Pop them to correct an undesirable action, and they know you aren't swatting a fly.

I trust my horse, but I know my horse is a reactive creature; therefore, I don't think I'll spoon with him.....ever.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

I think there are maybe two ways to think of having a "bond" with a horse. The most common one, and one I think is superficial, is this "my horsey loves me we have a bond" crap, all this "spend time with your horse, groom it, give it treats" stuff to form a bond just, usually, puts people into a servile position vis a vis their horse, and its no wonder that many of these horses get dangerous. 

the other kind of bond that there is, the one I try to get and maintain, is much more subtle, unseen and only comes from good training and hours and hours and hours of effective riding. I first felt it, or first noticed it at least, when I was a teenager, I was working on a cattle station and finally had my own team of work horses ones I actually owned, as apposed to always having to ride station horses (ones owned by the cattle station and ridden by anyone and everyone who worked there).

On the day I first really noticed it, I don't think Ill ever forget it, I was riding along the wing of a mob of cattle and I saw a cow that was thinking of running off, I was watching her and when she went I jumped out in front of her, my horse must have only had to run about 10 meters and then he sat into his back legs as we cut her off, as she cut back around, she tried to go back behind my horse, the horse spun round and blocked her. She decided it was more trouble than it was worth and went back where she belonged, me and the horse just went back to work. 

The whole thing took all of about one or two seconds, but later I realised that at no time did I tell the horse to do anything, not consciously at least, and I could feel exactly where all of the horses feet were and how to move them like it was instinct. It was as if my mind simply by wanting to block the cow, was controlling the horse's feet; in other words all of the communication between me and the horse had, for both of us, gotten past any sort of conscious action. When I realised that that is what had happened it opened my mind up to what a real bond with a horse feels like. My horses never got treats, I never hung out with them in the horse paddock grooming them (ie bothering them) it all just came from hours and hours of working hard together.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Don't even know what to say about that sexist comment. My boyfriend is a wonderful horseman who is driven by his emotions in a similar way I am, and I have had the pleasure of meeting many young men and accomplished male horseman who have told me they fantasized as kids as well. I'm a little shocked that someone could say a young boy couldn't live that fantasy, and offended that women are though of as the more frivolous of the two genders.

As far as the bond goes, I typically agree. However, I believe some horses are one-person horses, or build relationships very similar to a herd hierarchy with their people.

My mare, Selena, was one I thought had zero loyalty. I figured she would ride for anyone, and work for anyone, and would not care whether I was there or not. However, after I got hurt a few weeks ago, I changed my mind. I got kicked by another horse, she jumped, and I fell off. It resulted in a broken knee cap and chipped femur. When I was riding out, she was hot, jigging, being a real dink. After I fell off, she almost immediately sobered up. I got back on and she was low headed, walking easy, taking her time over obstacles she normally would have jumped over or skirted to avoid. 

When we got back to camp, my friend untacked her. She normally pulls on the lead trying to get to grass, or tries to rub on you, but this time she stood with her ears up, looking straight at me across the campsite as my boyfriend wrapped and cleaned my leg. When she was put back in the campsite corral, she ignored her food and stood at the gate and watched. She nickered every time I got up, and became stressed when I left her sight. This is behavior I did NOT believe in until that day.

Now, she's broke, of course she can be ridden by anyone and will behave for anyone, but after that I believe that whatever relationship we have could be classified as a "bond" by some people. She is as safe as horses come, I could probably crawl between her legs and hang on her neck and various other stupid things...Doesn't mean I will. I have climbed under her belly and stood on her back, but I don't think that is the sign of a bond.

I think that the things we do together though, the way we know how each other will move, and the way we accommodate for each other's downfalls...I think that is the sign of a mutual understanding and partnership. We both know our job is all.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

I think bonds are more about what the person feels. I hate it when people try to treat them like people. To some degree it's okay. Like thinking your horse looked at you a certain way when you did something crazy. Or they give you a look that you interpret as them telling you something "Ahem! Where is my peppermint?" That's okay to me. 

I think my broodmare and I would classify as a "Bond" in my books. I can read her like a children's book. I can almost say I "feel" her, but it is just that I have lived with her for 15 years and I know every inch of her. I have seen all of her tricks and know what sets her off, what she does before certain behaviors. She's very predictable if you pay attention. Would she ever hurt me? She would never attack me or seek to do me harm. Like most horses. Would I ever lay under her? Oh hail no. 

As for her part. She chooses to be with me more often than not. She will whinny when she sees me and meets me halfway. She will follow me and she is comfortable with me. She certainly LIKES me and likes my company. I think it is my nature. I'm pretty inoffensive and gentle by nature. Lots of creatures are comfortable around me. 

She does LOVE. Maybe not me in the way I love her, but for example she LOVES scratches. She especially loves getting her teats cleaned and rubbed. Id say she loves that as much as I love her. Rub right behind her poll and she will fall asleep. Crinkle a candy wrapper or shake a can of grain and tell me they don't "love". Hahaha! Boy do some get excited. They don't sit around and think, "Man I wish that human would come give me a carrot." Or "Man where is human? I haven't seen her in a while?" They live in the moment. But they certainly respond when said human or carrot appears. Or when something they don't like appears. They definitely like and dislike things, some things to me would push the boundaries of love. Much in the way a girl loves her shoes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> When I was a teen I had the same teen fantasies as these young girls do. We didn't call it bonding per se, but we all had that fantasy. It was part and parcel of the time and was a beautiful thing for that time. I don't think a person should denigrate the idea of a bond. It may be a fantasy, but it's part of being a teen girl who's crazy about horses. She'll grow out of it in time and there's no sense in rushing her past that.
> 
> Of course, there is the matter of safety. a girl needs to know how to act with a horse in a manner that is safe. Inasmuch as the bonding fantasy stands between her and safe interaction with the horse it needs to be tempered with common sense and knowledge. However, making fun of this idea of bonding is simply making fun of a child's time in life and how they think and feel.



I grew up watching The Black Stallion, and honestly, I think it is STILL my favorite movie. I'm almost 40 now and I still think it's beautiful. 

How many young people would NOT have gotten involved with horses if it not for that and similar movies? I strongly suspect that is where my love for horses came from. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the fantasy because when you get a real live horse reality sets in. At least it did for me. It probably took a good year for me to "bond" with my first horse. I was completely green (I had only ever ridden rental horses nose to tail) and he was a middle aged Arabian gelding who was the best beginner's horse.  But even then, it took a good year before I felt I knew him and could trust him in most circumstances.

What do I call a "bond?" Having a comfort level with the horse and knowing what it is likely to do in various situations. Having trust in the horse. And having the horse trust me. That's what I call a bond. And it takes TIME. You can't buy it with treats (although I do feed treats). It's more like an accumulation of experiences that you and the horse have been through together that builds trust. That's what I call a bond. It's having been around each other so much that you can read each other and trust each other.

And I agree with what someone else said......if you don't want a bond with a living creature, why not just get a bike? I am in it FOR the relationship. Because goodness knows, a bike would be cheaper, safer and less upkeep! So the relationship of a real live animal is what I am in it for. 

I don't know why, but I don't particularly care for dogs. They are okay, but I don't need one. I prefer horses and cats. Dogs will love anyone. Cats and horses you have to earn their trust. :lol:


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

AnrewPL said:


> I think there are maybe two ways to think of having a "bond" with a horse. The most common one, and one I think is superficial, is this "my horsey loves me we have a bond" crap, all this "spend time with your horse, groom it, give it treats" stuff to form a bond just, usually, puts people into a servile position vis a vis their horse, and its no wonder that many of these horses get dangerous.
> 
> the other kind of bond that there is, the one I try to get and maintain, is much more subtle, unseen and only comes from good training and hours and hours and hours of effective riding. I first felt it, or first noticed it at least, when I was a teenager, I was working on a cattle station and finally had my own team of work horses ones I actually owned, as apposed to always having to ride station horses (ones owned by the cattle station and ridden by anyone and everyone who worked there).
> 
> ...


^^^ This is what I think of when I think of the word bond. Willow and I work way better together than Mona and I ever did. We are just a better fit.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

SorrelHorse said:


> My mare, Selena, was one I thought had zero loyalty. I figured she would ride for anyone, and work for anyone, and would not care whether I was there or not. However, after I got hurt a few weeks ago, I changed my mind.


I had this happen too. My second horse was a very high strung Arabian gelding. A lot of fun to ride, but all business. No lovey-dovey in him. 

I always figured if I came off he would run home and leave me for dead. As a matter of fact, he did that not long after I bought him. I didn't come off, but he got away and ran home without me.

So I figured that's the way our relationship would go and I didn't think no more of it until about 10 years later when the saddle rolled when we were cantering up a hill and I swerved to miss a limb. The saddle went over and I came off pretty hard. I was in no shape to immediately jump up and catch him. But instead of running for home he STAYED with me. Never would I expect him to do that because he really showed no inclination that he cared much about me one way or the other. But on that occasion he stayed right with me until I was able to get up and re-saddle him.

So I would call that a bond. When a horse that would normally leave you for dead decides he might hang around to see if you get up again. :lol: I felt our relationship was closer after that.


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## CuttingHorse (Mar 21, 2014)

I do think that horses bond with people and other horses, but not in the way that humans would bond with another human. Like others have said, there's bond in the sense of, "My horse loves me sooooo much! I can sit underneath him, and ask him to give me a hug with his leg because we have a _bond_!" That's a lie, horses don't think like that, and while I don't think most horses would intentionally try to hurt you, it doesn't mean they're not going to accidentally. Just because your horse loves you and you have a bond doesn't mean he isn't going to pick his hoof up to swat a fly and kick you in the process.

The type of bond I believe in is the type that you and the horse understand each other and there is a respect between the human and horse. I also think that horses have the ability to care. Like a human? No. My first horse, a polish arabian mare, I believe cared for me. She would chase off other horses and put herself in between me and other horses as a mare would do with her foal. If I was attributing the gesture to a human emotion, I would call it love, but I think for horses love and care is the same thing.

I think that the word "bond" has been taken over with human emotions, rather than an actual bond of understanding and respect.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> No, I'm sorry. There is so much wrong with people trying to bond with an animal who is incapable of bonding at the level we do. It gives people unrealistic expectations and can get people into very dangerous situations.


Still, I can't help but think of the uncounted number of people who've thought they've 'bonded' with other humans, and have lived - or sometimes haven't lived - to regret it.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Jumping4Joy said:


> This🙏^^ it honestly makes me sad when people think that boys are not as emotional as girls. Just because society TELLS boys to be ashamed of expressing emotions and that it's acting "feminine" by showing them. Boys have emotions too, you know.


Even those of us who really aren't all that emotional can get pretty attached to our four-legged friends. And can get to the point of 'bonding', if by that you mean being so much in tune with each other that it seems like you're read each other's minds.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

bsms said:


> But honestly, if I didn't feel some *connection* to her, I'd have sold her off years ago!


And there's the word I was looking for. 

There is a significant difference between "bonding" and feeling a "connection." Bonding and connection are both two way streets, but "bonding" is so much more. Bonding is what that old couple married 68 years has. Bonding is why a dog will remember his soldier after a year's tour to Iraq.

Connection is more like a friendship, based on respect and trust and an intangible 'other' thing that helps build and reinforce that respect and trust. There are some people I have disliked from the day we met; I'm still courteous and professional with them, and if they happen to be in a position of authority, I do as they ask. There are others that I've instinctively liked right from the start, and was willing to go above and beyond for them. We've all had that connection. Am I bonded to any of them - no. 

In both cases described above, I'm the horse. 

We can anthropomorphize all we want and say horses love. The don't. Sorry folks, but prey animals can't afford love. Their herd mates and babies get killed and eaten. And they run off. A new mare might nose or nudge her baby, but that isn't love. It's confusion and a maternal instinct triggered by hormones. They don't understand 'dead' until it starts to smell bad. Horses want food, exercise, rest, and protection. In the wild, that's the herd, and mutual grooming and pairings are part of herd-hierarchy and thus a safety mechanism. But if their Buddy-horse dies, they don't mourn.

Will a lone horse neigh and nicker and fuss if her only pasture-mate is taken away. Well, yeah - duh. She's alone. There's no protection from the predators that roam the night. If there are 5 other horses in the field, she'll turn around and try to make a new buddy, so she can rest or eat without being ambushed.

Memory is also different from love or bonding. Yes, horses remember. Teach one a bad habit and see how long it takes to UN-teach it.

So - if you must, then say you feel a connection with your horse. And maybe that horse feels a connection with you... but I will garun-dam-tee you that if a mountain lion jumps out of the woods and eats you, she isn't going to come back to see if you're okay or even mourn you.


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## tjtalon (Apr 26, 2013)

I never post on other forums than my "own" (won't say which one), but will make this one exception.

Yes, there's a "bond", when that horse, as the above stories show,shows behavior & awareness transmitting that YOU (person) have been accepted as Lead Mare (whether you or male or female, to them I don't think it matters..it's what they have seen). You are That that protects them & leads them to what they need. 

Horses are beyond our human awareness of sensitivity regarding being sensitive, aware, etc. They see us, in an absolute.

Bonding? Yes, but it's THEIR version of bonding.

'Nuff said. I won't visit this forum again to see any disparaging comments on my opinion, & I apologise if I have offended anyone, sure haven't meant to. I highly respect all who truly work with, attempt to understand, & achieve connection with a brilliant being..who can read us in a nano-second.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

I don't really use the term "bond" much, because I think it means something different to the horse community at large than it does to me. And I think I'm right as evidenced by this thread. I do think Rio and I have a bond though. It is probably 70/30 on my side but I do feel there is something coming back my way. 

I have mentioned many times on this site the gradual change in demeanor over the almost 2 years I have had him. When he came home I had a ****ed off horse, ****ed off but without a mean bone in his body. He would spend a lot of time when people were nearby just kicking his stall door. If you came over and tried to say hi or pet him you were greeted with pinned ears, a swift kick to the stall door and relentless head tossing. He would tolerate your presence but he did not want it. He would allow himself to be pet without biting or displaying threatening behavior but would escape swiftly as soon as your back was turned.

I have never lunged this horse, I have never had a trainer (as much as I would have liked one), I have no round pen or other facilities for typical "ground work" and training. What I did have was a small voice telling me that this horse was not going to hurt me. Why? Because in each of our small interactions he chose not to. He could have. He could very easily have bitten me when I gave him carrots when he was kicking that door. He could have kicked me in the head without a second thought when I was learning to pick up his feet. Run me down when I was leading him away from his feed bucket to go for a walk. But he never did. Over time those small interactions gave me trust in him, and in his innate gentle nature. 

On his end there was food. Food in the pasture 24 hours a day. More food in the morning, more food at night. Treats at random times just because. I won that horse through his stomach. It wasn't hard to do since he was so underweight when we brought him home. Over time a rhythm developed. If he did well, he got food. If he didn't do so well, he still got food. :wink: The door kicking stopped, the pinned ears stopped, the evading the halter stopped. There came a point when it became less of "oh god here she comes, what is she going to do to me now" and to quote BSMS more of "what are WE going to do today?" It was a subtle shift but it was there. He recognizes me as his person now and has the same trust in me that I do in him. I will not choose to hurt him and he will not choose to hurt me. I am greeted with forward ears now and at the end of our ride he will happily place his head in my hands and let me pet him for as long as I want. He actually seems to enjoy the touch as opposed to just tolerating it as he did for so long. 

I am not an idiot. He would probably never notice if I was gone. Never give it a second thought if I didn't stop the car on my way down the driveway and yell "Bye Rio!" to him in the pasture (he comes up to the fence when he hears the car). He would not miss it if I decided to give up riding. But when we do interact a bond of trust and security is there between us and to me that is more priceless than a mythical Black Stallion "bond".


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## Atomicodyssey (Apr 13, 2014)

I believe "bonding" is just another term for a positive relationship. I agree the person laying underneath their horse claiming it won't hurt them due to a "bond" is ridiculous. But our horses do come to recognize us, and perform better as a result of familiarization. We may place far more value on our relationship than they do, they are "just animals" but like any other living being they too have emotions.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

> They don't understand 'dead'


 I've observed quite the contrary. An old mare dropping to the ground and dying peacefully. The whole herd coming in a circle around her with their heads low, nickering softly, pained expressions and tense, yet slow body language. The younger horses clearly stressed and seeking the support of their peers. Her closest friend right by her side, carefully touching her during her death and becoming severely depressed right after it for weeks to come. My own horse acting nervous and depressed on the day it happened, and leading me to the mares' body where it had been dragged away from the eyes of the herd, concealed under some trees to be collected later. 

Horses might not be bothered to define and analyze their feelings like we do, but I don't doubt that they feel as deeply as we do. Including the ability to mourn the loss of a close member of the herd, if the situation allows (not having to escape a predator, for example), and clearly understanding "dead" many, many hours before the body has started to decompose.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Oh, yes, they understand 'dead'. Watch a mare grieve over her dead foal. Or the surviving member of a long-time pair when his buddy dies. I had to move a dead old gelding through a herd of younger horses that grew up with him being around, to get him to the grave. The entire herd of youngsters (there were 9) dropped into line behind the tractor and followed up the hill single file, and stood quietly while we sent him to rest, then one by one walked slowly past him and back down the hill. They KNEW.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I hear ya Chasin, and agree mostly to gist of it. I disagree that horses_ cannot_ bond though - it just means friendship IMO, of which you can definitely have with horse, dog, etc. There's nothing magical or mystical or fluffy about it, IMO, just some people's attitude... & unrealism about it.

I just don't get the attitude that 'horses are work animals not pets' tho. Mine are pets who 'work' too(albeit not much these days) ;-) But I am rather strict about behaviour & 'manners' regardless whether we're talking dogs, cats, chooks, horses... perhaps lack of training is behind delete's attitude about that one??


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## dernhelm1984 (Dec 19, 2013)

What some of y'all have already said: most people say "a bond" and "bonding" as having a "connection" and "creating a good connection." I don't often use the word myself but that's what I mean when I do. Nothing more. 

Yes, I know there are people out there who post videos of themselves crawling under a horse or whatever on YouTube and using the term like they have a fairytale relationship with said horse... but a gigantic majority of horse people I have encountered both in person and online clearly do NOT use the word in that context . They say bond, they mean connection.

So I don't see what the big deal is at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skiafoxmorgan (Mar 5, 2014)

I read the entire Black Stallion series. Several times. Saw allllll the movies. Not even in my wildest dreams of youth did I ever mistake fiction for reality. Pulling them from the shelves isn't the answer. Those books ignited my fascination with horses, and they give wings to every horseless child that reads them. The answer lies in parents PARENTING their children and giving them solid foundations in reality. The answer lies in not mystifying and sanitizing life.

As for bonding. I think it is possible. Certainly my old Bandit and I had an undeniable bond of trust. Copper, my leased mare, after several months, is suddenly beginning to look at me when I walk in, walk up to the stall door when I approach, and show me her personality. There is a look in her eye that wasn't there before. In my estimation, she is beginning to "bond" to me. Whether that means she sees me as lead mare or "loves" me, I don't care. It is a bond. She is learning to trust me.

That said, I HATE seeing the words, "we have an incredible bond," too. As OP and several others have written, it is usually followed by some nasty vice and a request for how to fix it without destroying that "bond." 

My mare's "bond" is based on expectations and rules that have been followed, so now she's begun to stop testing me and instead just does as she has been taught. She can relax in the absence of pressure instead of challenging me. The prior example is based on treats and hugs, and a total unawareness that the horse is actually bullying and being quite rude. One use of "bond" is appropriate and something we all strive for, the other is a disaster.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

waresbear said:


> I only hear "bonding" from newbies or not very skilled horse people. Bonding, to me, is what a mother does with her newborn baby.


Exactly!!! If you suggested that they to spend the amount of time training a horse to reliably stay put on command down on the ground next to you, they'd think you were nuts, and NOBODY does that! Professional show people do that, ride/train 8 hrs/day. The Cavalry (name your country) did that on campaign. That is why you can see the picture that bsms posted with a WWI soldier and his probably very tired from campaigning horse down next to him.
Most people's pleasure horses are as out of control as the children I saw recently at Walmart, pulling toys off the shelf while their mother, waiting in line let them play with them! THAT type of horse with poor training WILL hurt you if you sit down next to him and something startles him and he gets up kicking out. I have seen my horses get up in less than 5 seconds--can YOU get up and out of the way that fast?
_We are JUST TRYING to keep you people new to horses from getting seriously injured by your horse._
There are plenty of testimony biographical stores of people who have had wonderful relationships with their horses. Alois Podjawsky wrote one, called "My Horses, My Teachers." There are many others that are also worth reading. "The Black Stallion" and "War Horse" are fiction. Neither are an accurate representation of what you really have when you keep and train a horse that you click with and develop a really good working relationship. 
I always trade horse stories with other horse people that I meet in passing. A few years ago a visited with two women who were in the same horse camp in SD. We were camped right at the trailhead and saw them coming back from a ride soon after they left AT THE WALK. One of their horses had broken a rein. Her 13yo QH was walking calmly back to camp with her aboard. *THAT is a good working relationship. * She told me that she worked for months to get this mare to learn to always walk first, bc she wanted a good trail horse. Her work paid off, and she owns a horse that she has clicked with. This is exactly the same as a famous pair of rider/show jumper or rider/reiner or ride/dressage horse.


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## Elsa (Jun 20, 2014)

I don't think horses bond like some want, but then I also don't think most dogs bond like people want either. :lol: I also think people are often too fast to claim these types of "special" bonds. However, I have seen horses that seem to go to pretty great lengths to take care of their riders and don't show the same consideration to other people. 

There is a difference between an animal with a connection based on trust and respect for the handler and the idea of some Disney style magical bond.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Here's my two cents: 

1. On the subject of "Do horses love other horses/people". Yes I believe they do. I watched my mare and gelding grieve over a deceased herd mate for months. My mare lost her 'boyfriend' to a twisted gut and old age. When he was being euthanized she busted through six fences, out of a stall simply to be with him. No halter, no lead, no fence around her she stood over him while he died and afterwards for about three days. My gelding stood over the grave of his buddy for darn near six months. I've seen too much 'emotion' and 'love' in horses that I believe they have it. As for rationalization, they have that too. Some are better at it, and some aren't but in the end a prey animal needs to be able to recognize a threat and think of how to respond appropriately. Not like ours but still applicable. 

2. When I think of bonding I think of someone who knows the horse inside and out as an individual. I was working with a colt and walking him down the road. Someone asked me how I could send him over things that he had never seen before. The answer is through hard work at proving that I was a capable leader who would keep him out of danger. To this day I can send that colt over anything and he does it because he knows I don't put him in a position to be hurt. 

I think that as humans we need to recognize what's horse behavior and what's human wishful thinking. But I don't think that we should discredit that a horse (or any animal) is incapable of emotions, love, or even 'bonding' to people because a few humans couldn't recognize a horse as a 1000+lb horse instead of a 1000+lb human.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> ...I just don't get the attitude that 'horses are work animals not pets' tho. Mine are pets who 'work' too(albeit not much these days) ;-) But I am rather strict about behaviour & 'manners' regardless whether we're talking dogs, cats, chooks, horses... perhaps lack of training is behind delete's attitude about that one??


One of my roommates in college came from a ranch, and he joked about my attitude toward dogs. He said that on a ranch, horses and dogs are tools, nothing more.

Fast forward 40 years. He has a blind Border Collie who lives in a shed near the sheep. He warns people that she isn't friendly, but she loves being near the sheep. He explained that she was the best sheep dog he's owned, but she went blind and now...she lives near the sheep so she can hear and smell them, and he sees to it she is fed and watered and has shelter and is left alone. I asked him why he didn't throw 'the broken tool' away. He smiled and said if I had seen her working sheep in her youth, I'd know.

On his wall is a picture of Trooper's sire, framed with hair from the tail and mane. He said the stallion was mean, dominant and aggressive. My friend was bitten a number of times and you could never turn your back on the stallion. One day, he rode the stallion out to work some cattle that had been on the range for 2 years without humans. The cattle were rough, mean...and the stallion LOVED it! He quickly figured out the 'game', and it became a test to him - who is the toughest animal on the range. The stallion won.

Once the stallion associated humans with working cattle, he began to tolerate them. He was the horse my friend turned to if he needed to do 50+ miles/day for several days, or if they had really rough cattle. One day he realized the stallion hadn't bitten him or kicked him in ages.

When the stallion was old, my friend's kids used him to work cattle. He wasn't lovey-dovey, but he was a willing and eager member of the team. And when he died, the kids took a photo of their Dad on the stallion, framed it with hair from his mane & tail, and put it in a place of honor on the wall. My friend says he'll never meet a finer horse.

I guess somewhere between 20 and 60, the dogs and horses stopped being tools.

It also brings up what I think is a critical part of a 'bond' - teamwork. I think a lot of horses and dogs understand having some sort of a job, and take pleasure in doing it. My Border Collie has no sheep to work, but he thinks his job is to monitor me and be ready. He follows me room to room, lies next to my feet when I'm at the computer and curls up next to my chair in the living room. He watches me feeding the horses or cleaning the corrals, just in case. He figures that is his job, and he does it with Border Collie dedication.

For several years now, my training goal with Mia has been to teach her to calm down, not jump out of her skin, and just do a few simple tasks when asked. I ride for the pleasure of her company, and my supremely egotistical mare seems to understand that. If I ride another horse, she often gets upset - "_What am I? Chopped liver?_" I think a lot of horses and other domesticated animals understand being part of a team (herd?), doing something together. It is no substitute for training or caution, but it builds a willingness and acceptance that makes riding fun.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> I could feel exactly where all of the horses feet were and how to move them like it was instinct. It was as if my mind simply by wanting to block the cow, was controlling the horse's feet; in other words all of the communication between me and the horse had, for both of us, gotten past any sort of conscious action. When I realised that that is what had happened it opened my mind up to what a real bond with a horse feels like. My horses never got treats, I never hung out with them in the horse paddock grooming them (ie bothering them) it all just came from hours and hours of working hard together.


 I had this happen with an ottb stallion I handled a lot on the ground. I was 18, he was 12, retired from the track at 2 and maybe sat on a handful of times since then bareback. It was the end of breeding season, and the bo said I could try riding him in the arena. So I did, and the same thing happened, only he was barely trained. It felt like we were communicating telepathically, but it must have just been him wanting to listen to the slightest cues and me not realizing I was giving them. I took him on a trail ride with mares in heat and he refused to look at them. A rider fell off and I asked him to stay behind while the others went to find the runaway horse. He stood there and watched the mares go. A green stallion that had done nothing but breeding for 10 years. Looking back it was insane and never should have happened, but the connection we had was crazy.



> but prey animals can't afford love. Their herd mates and babies get killed and eaten.


 that's silly. So do humans, maybe not the eaten part, but killed, certainly. How many people loose children in miscarriage, infancy or youth? How painful is it to loose a parent? How many people have lost a family member or friend to murder, accident or disease? Can we not afford love? I can tell you from personal experience, life would hurt so much less without it.



> A new mare might nose or nudge her baby, but that isn't love


 I'm guessing you haven't seen this process very much. Just like mothers of many other species, some mares are better than others, but anyone that thinks a mare doesn't bond with her foal, and love her foal, doesn't have much experience. There are mares that prefer the company of their foals over all else until the day they die. Many a mare will recognize their foals after years of separation.

there are so many examples that defy the "horses don't love and form complex relationships" thing. Horses that pine away and die for a lost foal or herd member. Horses that pick herd members that are weak to stay close to(like horses who choose, out of a herd, to guide a blind buddy). I watched a 17hh Clydesdale (recently gelded) pick an ancient, cancer ridden, crotchety old Arabian gelding to be his buddy, out of a herd of 30. Why was that? He shielded him from nasty herd members. From a "survival is everything" standpoint, what he did made no sense.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I still firmly believe that "love, bonding, caring, etc" are all human emotions. NOT animal emotions. Loving, caring, bonding, all takes rationalization, appreciation, empathy, etc. Which is something horses are simply not capable of. 

Being able to rationalize is what separates humans from animals. Horses work off their instincts, nothing more. They aren't mentally capable of "love". These are HUMAN terms with HUMAN meanings. Yes a mare will nurture her foal, be upset if it dies, when it's weaned, etc. Because that is their natural instinct to. They have chemical and hormonal reactions going on that drive them to mother that foal. We see hugging, kissing, cuddling, as love. Just because a mare nudges that foal, that does not mean it's out of love. She could have been saying "&@*(#& get up!". 

HUMANS attach these emotions to horses. WE need them, WE love them, WE care for them. Not the other way around. Sure, there is some level of companionship, and maybe even a "connection" of mutual understanding. But I think it's absurd to think horses have the capacity to rationalize these deep emotions. 

Why do horses get buddy sour? Because they are instinctively herd bound. Why do mares care if their foal dies, because they have a mothering instinct. 

Yes they crave companionship from each other and do not do well alone. They are social animals. They need to be in groups, to interact. Why? Because they are prey animals and prey animals do better in large numbers. They do not do well alone, because they are not wired to work that way. They LOOK for that other horse to tell them when they are in danger. They LOOK for that leader to guide them. This is why horses do so well with being sat on and told what to do. Being herd creatures they instinctively crave leadership and need guidelines to follow. 

To build on that, that is why alpha horses are so hard to train at times. An to build on that even more, this is where horses unique personalities come into play. Pecking order. I don't think horses are emotionless, I don't think they cannot feel. But I do think they cannot rationalize enough to understand these emotions we place upon them.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

BlueSpark said:


> I'm guessing you haven't seen this process very much. Just like mothers of many other species, some mares are better than others,* but anyone that thinks a mare doesn't bond with her foal, and love her foal, doesn't have much experience*. There are mares that prefer the company of their foals over all else until the day they die. Many a mare will recognize their foals after years of separation.


I think that this is an almost an insulting statement. I've worked with many people who work for breeding facilities. An they all have the same basic idea that YES the mare bonds with the foal, YES the mare mothers the foal.

But what you're seeing is instinct. Not some super amazingly complex love and adoration for a wee bee bee. You're seeing a horse doing what it was made to do. Mother a foal.


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## paintmered (Jul 27, 2014)

i don't mind the word bond and i don't mind bonding with my horse. But in a SAFE way. How i bond is i simply bathe and brush and it works perfectly fine. He trusts me and i trust him. Obviously i wouldn't use that trust to do something dangerous.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> I still firmly believe that "love, bonding, caring, etc" are all human emotions. NOT animal emotions. Loving, caring, bonding, all takes rationalization, appreciation, empathy, etc. Which is something horses are simply not capable of.
> 
> Being able to rationalize is what separates humans from animals. Horses work off their instincts, nothing more.


You know, this attitude bothers me even more than the Disney rainbow unicorn farts concept of bonding. There really isn't anything that separates humans from animals. Any differences are just a matter of degree, not of any fundamental kind. The neurons are the same, pretty much all the same sorts of brain structures, etc.

As for prey animals not being able to afford love (or whatever emotion you like), I have to call BS on that, because humans ARE prey animals, and have been for all of our evolutionary history. Granted, for the last few thousand years we've mostly preyed on each other, but still, look in the Trail Riding forum for long threads on what to do about mountain lions, and say we don't have the instincts of prey. So if humans can love (and mourn &c), where is there any rational reason to think that other creatures lack that capability?

From a purely evolutionary perspective, any herd/pack animal is going to evolve something akin to love, because that's the part of the glue that keeps the social unit together. And some of us even evolved the capability to accept members of different species as members of our herd/pack.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

BlueSpark said:


> I had this happen with an ottb stallion I handled a lot on the ground. I was 18, he was 12, retired from the track at 2 and maybe sat on a handful of times since then bareback. It was the end of breeding season, and the bo said I could try riding him in the arena. So I did, and the same thing happened, only he was barely trained.


You misunderstand. This stallion was handled a great deal, which means he was trained to listen to human commands. *This is why ground training really works.* The horse is obeying you, the leader of the herd.
Still, this is a GREAT story! =D


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

All higher animals rationalize, in varying degrees. If a horse could not rationalize, it wouldn't be able to seek out a stream to relieve its thirst. I have limited experience with horses, but I've also been told dogs don't rationalize, don't feel emotion, etc. I've spent my life with dogs, and that is just silliness and human conceit.

It is instinct for a mare to protect its foal? Then how do humans differ? I've met mothers with little connection to their child, but I've met many more who would give their life without hesitation for their child. If it is instinct for the horse, why don't we say that for the human? If the willingness of a dog to give its life for the pack is instinct, then how is it different when a soldier offers his life for his friend and comrade? When instinct becomes indistinguishable from love, I'm content to call it love.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you remove all the fantasy stuff then true bonding is really just about the horse trusting you with a good helping of familiarity and consistency
Nothing wrong with that.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> You know, this attitude bothers me even more than the Disney rainbow unicorn farts concept of bonding. There really isn't anything that separates humans from animals. Any differences are just a matter of degree, not of any fundamental kind. The neurons are the same, pretty much all the same sorts of brain structures, etc.
> 
> As for prey animals not being able to afford love (or whatever emotion you like), I have to call BS on that, because humans ARE prey animals, and have been for all of our evolutionary history. Granted, for the last few thousand years we've mostly preyed on each other, but still, look in the Trail Riding forum for long threads on what to do about mountain lions, and say we don't have the instincts of prey. So if humans can love (and mourn &c), where is there any rational reason to think that other creatures lack that capability?
> 
> From a purely evolutionary perspective, any herd/pack animal is going to evolve something akin to love, because that's the part of the glue that keeps the social unit together. And some of us even evolved the capability to accept members of different species as members of our herd/pack.


I suppose we are on opposite ends. Because it's your kind of attitude that is why people think they can have some sort of rational bond with horses. Which I cannot disagree with more.

It's a fact that rationalization is what separates us from animals. Yes humans are an animal, yes when you break it down we all have the same fundamentals. But it's looking at the details. If horses could rationalize at a human level, we would not still be using the same kind of techniques that have been used for hundreds of years. 

Horses learn through consistency. Why do we keep them in fences? Cause they will run away. Why is it such a task to teach a horse to load onto a trailer? Why do some horses continually spook at the same things? Why do horses check their grain bins periodically incase grain "magically" appears? 
Why do we even have to "break" out colts then? Why do horses kick through fences and get caught? 

The implication that horses can rationalize is absurd. For example, the barbed wire thread. You CAN show that horse the fence 20x over. You can walk the entire length of the fence 100x. BUT that still doesn't translate to "don't touch it". A horse doesn't look at a sharp fence and think "huh...I shouldn't touch that". THAT is what separates us from animals. The ability to see a situation and predict the consequences. 

If it is true that horses can rationalize, why do we have to "baby proof" everything so they don't hurt themselves? Shouldn't they be able to look at that tractor blade and understand that it'll hurt them?! No. Because they don't think that way. They learn though experiences, not through pondering the "what if's".


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## KodasSlvrWings (Feb 5, 2014)

I think it is a matter of how you look at the word "bond". When I say bond I don't mean the "Disney crap" that you guys have all talked about, I mean reaching the level that your horse excepts you as their herd leader and takes directions from you. As for trust, there has to be some level of trust for a horse to allow you on his back and for you to get up in his back. Think about this. When saddling a horse are you not putting the skin of a dead animal on his back where a predator would leap on to kill? You then proceed to climb up onto that dead animal's skin and then start commanding this horse to do things for you. As for myself I'm not getting up onto a horse's back until I trust that they can handle the experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> The implication that horses can rationalize is absurd. For example, the barbed wire thread. You CAN show that horse the fence 20x over. You can walk the entire length of the fence 100x. BUT that still doesn't translate to "don't touch it". A horse doesn't look at a sharp fence and think "huh...I shouldn't touch that". THAT is what separates us from animals. The ability to see a situation and predict the consequences


 you can tell a child the stove is hot, or the knife is sharp 100 times, but how many kids touch it anyways? Most, at some point. a child eventually learns that there will be consequences for things. A horse learns the same thing, which is why you have horses that learn to stay in electric fence. For some of them you can stick a ribbon on some sticks and they wont touch it. Horizontal funny colored strip = ouch. Just like a kid, a horse sees barb wire, touches it, learns to stay away from it. Is a horse on par with an adult human? of course not. But a small child? maybe. They also learn by example, both of other horses and humans. How many nervous new riders are afraid the horse will spook at the (insert random harmless item here), tense up everytime they go by it, and teach the horse that that item is scary, when, infact, they would have walked by it without batting an eye. The horse learns by example. If you freaked out everytime you were near a barb wire fence, they would likely get the memo. Walking calmly by the fence while talking in a verbal language the horse doesn't understand does nothing.

you also have to realize that all horses are individuals. some learn lessons very well, and never touch a fence in their lives after a touch with their nose. others are not so bright and keep getting tangled in them. Just like people. How many repeat the same mistakes over and over, while others learn.


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## KodasSlvrWings (Feb 5, 2014)

^^^ this! My mare does something once and then figures out "oh, maybe I shouldn't be doing that." While my sil's horse will repeat something over an over again. Every horse is different and at some point they have to learn things. Otherwise you would never be able to ride them, you'd have horses running through those little wired fences. Speaking of getting out of fences my horses just last week found a place that they could get through and kept getting out until we could find out where and got it fixed. You can't tell me that they walked along pushing up against the fence until they hit that spot that they could get through over and over again. No, they saw the open spot in the fence, knew they could get through it, and then one by one they followed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I never said horses don't learn from experiences. In fact I did say they do.

I also agree they are individuals, unique personalities. 

I simply don't agree with the fact that they can rationalize at a level that we do. They have a certain capacity unique to each horse, but I tend the find the longer I am around horses. An the more horses I am around the less intelligent they seem. Granted, I don't spend much time with each horse. I haven't owned a personal horse in years. 

I also don't "try" to bond with horses. I don't even give it a second thought. I don't hug on them, love on them, or treat them like a pet what so ever. My opinion of this whole thing is biased I realize. Simply because I haven't had a horse for a "pet" since I was 15-16. It's like trying to make a cow a pet or a chicken a pet. I see horses as livestock and I completely disagree with any type of humanizing animals.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

As far as it is with me, it's not about humanizing, but about being human. About giving my respect, love, trust, time, emotions, sincerity to other beings, not just accepting only those animals who can articulate their thoughts in words and sentences. My horse is as much livestock to me as are my coworkers, neighbors, or any random person I happen to meet - he isn't. The fundamental difference might be that I don't seek anything I could get out from him - I seek for things I can give in return to what horses and other animals give to me. 

Disney? Well, let it be. I prefer living happily ever after anyway.  (And, no, I am not currently being kicked and bitten by a herd of out-of-control, spoiled, humanized horses.)

Having said that, I still agree that there are too many people who get into horses without the much needed guidance, knowledge and experience, and that does lead to disasters. Things have to be in balance and, even if you seek a more emotional connection with other species, you still have to keep an open mind for possible mistakes, which are inevitable. That's learning a whole new language, after all.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

KodasSlvrWings said:


> ^^^ this! My mare does something once and then figures out "oh, maybe I shouldn't be doing that." While my sil's horse will repeat something over an over again.


I know a good many humans that have a lot in common with your SIL's horse. Dare I mention recent events in Gaza as a prime example? Or the US 'War on Drugs', people who keep putting up with abusive spouses, supporting deadbeat kids, _et cetera ad infinitum_.


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## KodasSlvrWings (Feb 5, 2014)

I do think that certain people "click" with certain horses. I have had 5 of my own horse and only one that I have actually gotten along with. There was just something about the others that I just didn't have feelings towards. They were livestock to me. My mare that I have now is more than that. Do I treat her like a dog? No. But I do feel that there is a little more there than what was there with the others and I do tend to spend more time grooming or spending time in the pasture with her that I didn't do with the others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

.Delete. said:


> ...I simply don't agree with the fact that they can rationalize at a level that we do...


I don't recall anyone suggesting horses DO rationalize "_at a level that we do_". For a bond to form ("bond...4. something, as an agreement or friendship, that unites individuals or peoples into a group..."), all that is required is for the horse to rationalize, "This person cares for me, knows what they are doing, and I am happy with them when we do things". 

It is a relationship: "friendship". When social animals conclude they are part of a team, and they like their team, then they have bonded - united. At the horse/human level, it only requires a horse to notice a pattern of good outcomes and mutual support - and horses are VERY observant, if not deep thinkers.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Part of a great relationship between horse and rider is respecting that you are different species. You have to realize that your horse is a horse not a human. When you loose sight of the fact that your horse is in fact another species, and thus needs to be treated differently, that's when you run into problems.



> I tend the find the longer I am around horses. An the more horses I am around the less intelligent they seem.


 I could say that about people. If you only work with another creature because you have to, with no desire for any other form of interaction, you will start viewing them as bland, similar and qualities start blurring together. I deal with people every day. I have to remind myself to see everyone as individuals, because they all start blurring together. You start treating them as another number instead of a person with needs, feelings and opinions. Or in this case, a horse with needs, feelings and an individual personality.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

BlueSpark said:


> I could say that about people. If you only work with another creature because you have to, with no desire for any other form of interaction, you will start viewing them as bland, similar and qualities start blurring together. I deal with people every day. I have to remind myself to see everyone as individuals, because they all start blurring together. You start treating them as another number instead of a person with needs, feelings and opinions. Or in this case, a horse with needs, feelings and an individual personality.


I couldn't agree more Blue. I too, work with people every day. An I have the exact same opinion for people. They do all tend to blur together into one big mush.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> Ponyboy, I hope you are using that name because you are a boy. A boy would not fantasize about the black stallion like young girls do.


What?? Are you saying that because you think boys can't like horses as much as girls, or because you think girls can't tell fantasy from reality? 

Either way, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

.Delete. said:


> I think that this is an almost an insulting statement. I've worked with many people who work for breeding facilities. An they all have the same basic idea that YES the mare bonds with the foal, YES the mare mothers the foal.
> 
> But what you're seeing is instinct. Not some super amazingly complex love and adoration for a wee bee bee. You're seeing a horse doing what it was made to do. Mother a foal.



And "caring" a great deal more than a LOT of humans, who supposedly have that same instinct. I've been breeding Arabians since 1981. They CARE. At least, most of them do.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

bsms said:


> I don't recall anyone suggesting horses DO rationalize "_at a level that we do_".


In fact, I'd suggest just the opposite: that most humans don't use their reasoning abilities nearly as much as some people would like to think, and are often driven by instinct and irrational emotions. As I said before, the differences between humans and other animals are differences of degree, not of kind.

But in any case, reasoning ability has very little to do with bonding. Just let me ask those of you who're married and/or in love whether that was the result of a rational decision you made. Bet very few of you will say it was


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## ZLund (Aug 8, 2014)

Alrightly then, I have a telepathic, empathic, union, partnership, friendship, "kinship", pact, support system, cooperation, connection, and total affinity with my horses.

And they told me that they are very glad that they are not your horses. "We are NOT machines."

And if you fall into the catagory of people who think horses don't get bored either, then my horses say you're not correct about that either.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

ZLund said:


> Alrightly then, I have a telepathic, empathic, union, partnership, friendship, "kinship", pact, support system, cooperation, connection, and total affinity with my horses.
> 
> And they told me that they are very glad that they are not your horses. "We are NOT machines."
> 
> And if you fall into the catagory of people who think horses don't get bored either, then my horses say you're not correct about that either.


So like......the real life Black Beauty...

I wish I could read horses minds. You must teach me your ways.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

.Delete. said:


> So like......the real life Black Beauty...
> 
> I wish I could read horses minds. You must teach me your ways.


Actually, it isn't that hard. But you really have to study "horse' like you would another language.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Every animal, human or otherwise, has_ different_ intelligence, but IMO just because they think differently to us & lack certain skills, that doesn't mean they are not intelligent. And IMO there are many more similarities in the way we think & feel, the way we learn, than differences. I also think the major difference, and why we're _better _at rationalising & generalising is that we have a verbal language & therefore ability to communicate & therefore understand abstract concepts. ...Altho, having known of many people that can't think rationally, I sometimes wonder how different we really are on this too:lol:


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Agreed. Just because you don't speak Russian, should you think all Russians are stupid?


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

squirrelfood said:


> Actually, it isn't that hard. But you really have to study "horse' like you would another language.


yep, and that is the beauty of being he most intelligent species on the planet. we are infinitely smarter than horses, our neurology makes us weak, but smart and precise. E.g., I heard about research the other day that talked about why humans are physically weaker than a primate of comparable size and weight. a human of my size, 179cm, 93Kg, and I'm pretty fit and strong, is so much weaker than a chimp of smaller size. Because somewhere in our evolution we went through a process called Gracilisation whereby we, as a species, lost all of that animalistic strength power, agility and reflex, but what we got was intelligence and precision in our fine motor skills. And if we actually use our intelligence we can pretty close to read a horses mind, their mid ticks by by the minute, ours runs on milliseconds.


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## OliviaMyee (Jul 31, 2012)

I Wonder why my horse would come cantering up to me and neighing at all, i treated him really roughly after i got him some months ago. Why would a horse bother to want to be with some one who is always angry with him.

Why was it when i didn't see my horse he kept trying to look for me in the paddock said by a boarder, although my horse has tendencies to be strange and was gelded late and trys to mount round bales. 

I think people and horses can have bonds although, i don't trust my horse completely and i think he tends to trust me much more than i trust him. Some times i look at my horse and think wow he's so much more normal then me he's happy and forgiving and yet always trying to be with me yet, i have never been pushed around by him in a dominant way. 

I always try to think open when I'm rational, Never say never ?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A while back someone posted a very clever thread asking members about their fear of things that actually couldn't harm them or didn't even exist and it got a lot of replies - and then we say horses are irrational!!!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

In my opinion the "bonding" gets mistaken for simply tolerated when young girls put themselves in compromising positions with their horses to show their "bond".


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

AnrewPL said:


> Because somewhere in our evolution we went through a process called Gracilisation whereby we, as a species, lost all of that animalistic strength power, agility and reflex, but what we got was intelligence and precision in our fine motor skills. And if we actually use our intelligence we can pretty close to read a horses mind, their mid ticks by by the minute, ours runs on milliseconds.


Have to somewhat disagree with that. On the chimp vs human, ever see a chimp run a marathon? There just aren't that many land animals, other than canines, that can match human endurance.

In the mind-reading department, horses have (most) humans beat by miles. You aren't the one figuring out what the horse wants you to do from extremely subtle cues, you know. Then there's the story of Clever Hans, where the horse figured out how to "do math" &c the hard way, by noticing the extremely subtle cues the audience showed when he got to the right answer. I could no more do that, even with years of teaching (let alone figure it out by myself), than the horse could do calculus.


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## ZLund (Aug 8, 2014)

The Fountain of youth

"Woe to him who believes he knows it all. Woe to him who stops truly learning, stops changing, developing, growing, and maturing. He is old and dead. Intellectual agility is simply liveliness. It is the fountain of youth, of life. Always simply begin at the beginning like a child then you will be on the best path to becoming truly mature. And now, I wish you much pleasure and much 'glue' in experiencing the new. " 

_Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling - Authentic Natural Horseman_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

This is also the definition of Humility.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Never, ever stop learning.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

As a teacher, I also learned that you should be kind when you correct, and encouraging. Grace, always grace.


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## 3ringburner (Feb 8, 2014)

ive been around horses since i was about 6 and when i was about 8 my dad traded 2 fillies for 2 stud colts. One of the stud colts caught my attention and him and i just clicked! my dad decided to let me have him but with my dads help train him. He was about 3 and like i have said i was about 8. My dad had began working with him (breaking him out) but was only on him once with the saddle. Things got buisy and my dad stopped messing with him, well as an 8 year old i got very impatient. I wanted to ride my horse! So what did i do? I put a halter and lead rope on him and i moved him to the fence, climed up the fence and i got on bareback.... Not the smartest and i know now that i could've been seriously hurt but he never hurt me or did anything. in about a week i had him walking trotting and loaping in a pasture with 3 other horses.... I was young and dumb but Mito and i had a "bond" that was impeccable!


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

jamesqf said:


> Have to somewhat disagree with that. On the chimp vs human, ever see a chimp run a marathon? There just aren't that many land animals, other than canines, that can match human endurance.
> 
> In the mind-reading department, horses have (most) humans beat by miles. You aren't the one figuring out what the horse wants you to do from extremely subtle cues, you know. Then there's the story of Clever Hans, where the horse figured out how to "do math" &c the hard way, by noticing the extremely subtle cues the audience showed when he got to the right answer. I could no more do that, even with years of teaching (let alone figure it out by myself), than the horse could do calculus.


I said strength, I didn't say anything about endurance; and there is barley and animal on earth that isn't stronger than a human in the power to weight department. And, yeah, horses may well have most humans beat, but that doesn't mean that a good horseperson shouldn't be able to out smart them, after all, that's why we train them. Id say its the ineptitude of the person if they get trained by their horse, not an indication of inferior intelligence capabilities.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

*Moderator's note:*

Few posts in this thread have been removed due to them being pure popcorn posts. If you feel just like making fun of the discussion, other participants or the subject, please move on instead of making fun of the said issues. Thank you.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Just a thought here…

I think most horses aren't very affectionate with people because they've been bred that way. Most people think that if a horse does what it's told without complaining, that's good enough temperament wise. Creating lovey-dovey horses is not a priority for most breeders. It's not that horses are naturally indifferent and uncaring animals.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

ponyboy said:


> Just a thought here…
> 
> I think most horses aren't very affectionate with people because they've been bred that way. Most people think that if a horse does what it's told without complaining, that's good enough temperament wise. Creating lovey-dovey horses is not a priority for most breeders. It's not that horses are naturally indifferent and uncaring animals.



I agree that some of that has to do with natural temperament but equally important or more so is how they are handled and trained. Hence tolerating all the "love" that is smothered on them.

Also why would a lovey dovey horse be a priority? I think there are much more important traits to bred into a horse.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Hmmm...

I'm by NO means a lovey dovey horse owner. They are HUGE animals that can and will hurt us and there is NO room for stupidity and careless behavior around them.

That being said... I do believe there ARE spectacular animals among us, and regardless of training some horses ARE "spechiul".

When I was young, 14 or 15, I was out trail riding my first horse, whom I trained myself at 11. 
She was 5 or 6 then. 
Three HUGE German Shepard/chow crosses attacked us. She WOULD NOT buck and didn't take off with me when they were tearing her to shreds, one dog was latched onto the base of her tail! I jumped off and she ATTACKED the dogs!
Killed two and severely injured the other who got away. Then she came back to me!
Did she run back home to her herd? No.
Did she buck me off trying to get away from them? NO.
She waited until I was safely off before taking care of business. I'm not sure if I call that a "bond", but what would you call it?

Then there was my old man Rooster. When he was 22 his health started going down hill. He stood for HOURS by the fence waiting to "hang out" with me instead of being around the other horses, HE was the "boss man".
We let him live his final years on the porch.
When he was hungry he'd pick up the broom and beat the door, he'd nap with 2 year old DD sitting on his back, but most of the time he'd watch TV with his head through the window and watch me work or clean house.
When he was 24, almost 25 he had an incredibly bad colic. I saw him struggling out in the yard and went to check. I screamed for DH to call the vet but he couldn't find the number. 
When I left his side... Rooster SCREAMED like I've never heard a horse scream, struggled to his feet and chased me to the house. He got half way there before I stopped. When he saw me coming back he whinnied and collapsed.
I got him through the colic but had to put him down a few months later, he never really recovered.

So I don't know... Sure I've had dozens of horses that didn't give a flip about me any more than I did them, but sometimes... There ARE those stupid things called "bonds". I never did anything "stupid" around them (like put their hoof on my head!?!?!!!!), but I was reckless or did get into unexpected trouble and they always made sure I got home safely.
I've got more amazing stories about those two than anyone should deserve. Lord knows how much I miss and love them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I agree that some of that has to do with natural temperament but equally important or more so is how they are handled and trained. Hence tolerating all the "love" that is smothered on them.
> 
> Also why would a lovey dovey horse be a priority? I think there are much more important traits to bred into a horse.


It would be difficult to have a 900lb animal "love" on you.....sounds painful really.


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

I'll agree with Ponyboy and Cowchick77

My oldest mare isn't really lovey dovey, she's the type that will get the job done and want to go back out in the field, she's not one for handing out much affection. Now the other two I have, both the same sire but different dam, have the 'puppy dog' attitude. They're always there even when you don't call them and enjoy getting snuggled. Chloe likes attention, but i'd put her as in between my eldest and the other two. That being said...there is no way I'd EVER let my horse put his/her hoof on any part of my body, nor would I wrap their limbs around my torso in a 'hug'. When I was a kid a hug was when you put your arms around their neck and they rested their chin into the small of your back and I only learned how to do that from one of the experienced horse people in my family and I only did it that one time. I also don't say I bonded with a horse, I say a particular horse and I just click.


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

> It would be difficult to have a 900lb animal "love" on you.....sounds painful really.


Yeah, which is why I set boundaries with my yearling as soon as I got her, she can be affectionate, just at a certain distance.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Great quote Zlund, by a good horseman... but can't help a little snigger at the 'Authentic' bit! ~ As opposed to...??:lol:

If you're 'green' you're growing, if you're 'ripe' you're rotten!


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

The problem with the dog vs horse argument is that we have selectively bred dogs for thousands of years to be affectionate. There is (in my opinion) a greater variety in the "personality" types of dogs than there are in horses. This is simply because up until relatively recently in history, we have bred horses for the primary purpose of transport. They are very much beasts of burden and only recently have they become "pets". While dogs have thousands of years of being bred for very diverse and specific tasks. A Cavalier King Charles Spaniel has no other purpose than to be a companion. It was bred and has been bred for years to be a companion. Traits that are consistent with being a companion are present in this dog. While a Malamute has been bred to be a working dog to pull a sled. It does not have the same companion ship personality traits that the spaniel would have. That said, there are folk who have malamutes who love them as companions. So just because a horse may not have been bred to be a companion does not mean it can't be one. By the same token, horses have not been bred exclusively to be companions and comparing them to a species that has been is somewhat unfair to both species. 

I try to not judge other animals intelligence because well we have chimpanzees and gorillas that can communicate via sign language. There is a parrot that has the vocabulary and presumed IQ of a four year old. There are dolphins that give each other names and can communicate via symbols. There is a lot about the world that we don't know because we haven't found a good way to accurately represent what we see.


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## WildAtHeart (Jul 17, 2013)

I think of bonding as more of a mutual respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

AnrewPL said:


> I said strength, I didn't say anything about endurance; and there is barley and animal on earth that isn't stronger than a human in the power to weight department.


Again, I'll have to disagree on that, if for no other reason than that most comparisons are of active animals to sedentary urban humans. Change the comparison to say someone who's an active rock climber, and you might find that the difference is not as great as you think.

Then you have the basic fact that there are different types of muscle fibers. Some are optimized for strength, others for endurance. Humans tend towards the endurance side of the scale.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

jamesqf said:


> Again, I'll have to disagree on that, if for no other reason than that most comparisons are of active animals to sedentary urban humans. Change the comparison to say someone who's an active rock climber, and you might find that the difference is not as great as you think.
> 
> Then you have the basic fact that there are different types of muscle fibers. Some are optimized for strength, others for endurance. Humans tend towards the endurance side of the scale.


disagree all you like it doesn't change the fact that gracilisation of the human species happened and that increased fine motor control came at the cost of strength, the exact comparison I heard the other day was between a chimp and a human both with arms the same size, the chimps is stronger. It is common throughout the animal kingdom. Sure, you can site possible examples in which, through concentrated training, like a rock climber, a gymnast would be another, people increase their strength to pretty high levels, but it doesn't change the biological fact that as a population humans are physically weaker than other animals for their strength to weight. People have done long term research into this stuff and that's what they have found.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

fftopic:--------------------------------------------------fftopic:​
Studies now seem to suggest chimps have about twice the strength, but this study has a different description of the humans between when it describes the procedures and when it reports the results.

Vertical jumping performance of bonobo (Pan paniscus) suggests superior muscle properties

The 'athletes' are described as "four physically active male human subjects...reported to engage in various sport activities on a recreational level (i.e. volleyball, ice skating, climbing)" in the design, but the conclusion describes "highly trained human athletes". If the difference was only 2-fold, then our modern insulation from serious need for strength may account for most of it. I remember reading an account by a guy who was a medium sized farmer in the mid-1800s - so about 5'7" and 135 lbs, if typical. After a winter of near starvation, he was ashamed he could carry only ONE sack of grain - one 100-lb sack of grain - at a time. 

When physical labor was a constant rather than a sport, we developed higher strength ratios than we seem to now. Even if I dieted down to 160 lbs, I think I would still carry more 'marbling' than most wild animals, or most men from 1850.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I do understand the types the op is talking about, it's the ones that believe their perfect horsie would never hurt them, he loves them to much! In some cases the horse probably wouldn't hurt them, intentionally, in other cases this person is showing off their injury from where the horse 'accidently' kicked/bit/charged/etc., but of course 'he didn't mean to'. However, I do not have an issue with the word or idea of bonding. I can't remember using that word out loud, but I may have if asked to describe it (it just hasn't come up).

I am going to say that no one can say what they think or feel, because no one has experienced it for themselves, all we can go on is what we have seen or experienced, some of it is easily explained, others not so much. 

Personally I do believe horses are capable of love,respect, and bonding. I've known plenty of people that had no desire to bond or have a relationship with others (people or other), and I've known horses the same way. I've known people that preferred horses (or other animals) over other people, and I've known horses that preferred the company of people (or a certain person) over other horses. I have seen, and have had great bonds with some horses. 

I have two horses now, one of them respects me, but it's strictly a working relationship, he doesn't love me, or prefer me, and would be perfectly fine if I fell off the planet. The other one seeks me out, calls to me, leaves the others to come to me (and I should mention I don't give treats, he's not expecting food), two of his companions like to bolt when they see me (or someone else) coming, and as they are running in the opposite direction, he's ignoring them to come to me. Would he notice if I disappeared? I think he would to some degree, he would get use to me not being there and get over it, but for a while I think he'd look for me. I will say I do believe I out rank his four equine companions. 

As for animals mourning, they do, not all of them will, just like not all people do, but some will mourn themselves to death, others will just get depressed for a while, and some will not even seem to notice they are gone. I do have one I witnessed, that I don't really have an explanation for, not a horse, but another prey animal. We had two goats, mother and son, the son was about a year old, he got out of the pen and died (not sure what happened to him, there was no obvious signs of trama, he was just dead), his mom cried and cried for him, of course I couldn't explain to her that he wasn't coming back, so I decided to show her. I walked her over and we got about 10 feet from him, she suddenly slammed on the breaks, then she started shaking. We stood there for about 15 mins, letting her soak it in and pull herself together, then I put her back in the pen, where she stayed quiet, never yelled out for him again. No one could tell me she didn't know he was dead, otherwise she would have gone right back to screaming for him the second I put her back in her pen.


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## dernhelm1984 (Dec 19, 2013)

Was browsing my Facebook feed today and saw that one of my horse friends posted a link regarding "connecting/bonding" with your horse. Of course I immediately thought of this thread! I found it to be an interesting read so I am going to share!

Connecting with Your Horse

Let me know what y'all think of this woman's thoughts. Hope you enjoy!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

How about Magnetic Connection instead of Bonding. Bonding is a maternal connection with offspring. A magnetic connection denotes a variable connection.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

haviris said:


> I do understand the types the op is talking about, it's the ones that believe their perfect horsie would never hurt them, he loves them to much! In some cases the horse probably wouldn't hurt them, intentionally, in other cases this person is showing off their injury from where the horse 'accidently' kicked/bit/charged/etc., but of course 'he didn't mean to'. However, I do not have an issue with the word or idea of bonding. I can't remember using that word out loud, but I may have if asked to describe it (it just hasn't come up).
> 
> I am going to say that no one can say what they think or feel, because no one has experienced it for themselves, all we can go on is what we have seen or experienced, some of it is easily explained, others not so much.
> 
> ...


I can relate to all points since I have four horses with four distinct personalities and thought processes.

they have been with me anywhere from 8 years to 23 years so, we have experienced the entire range of emotions together. Each one reacted differently, just as you describe - it depends on the horse, it depends how truly in tune the person is to those horses who are willing to share their soul with a human.

Very well said ---- Very well said :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

AnrewPL said:


> disagree all you like it doesn't change the fact that gracilisation of the human species happened and that increased fine motor control came at the cost of strength...


Well, I'd have to say that it changes the fact that your fact's not a fact  First, there's no real tradeoff between strength and fine motor control - see for instance the elephant's trunk. Second, humans simply don't have superior fine motor control, in general, though of course that control may be located in different areas in different species.



> ..the exact comparison I heard the other day was between a chimp and a human both with arms the same size, the chimps is stronger.


Of course this is exactly what you'd expect, considering that chimps are brachiating - that is, they use their arms to move through the trees - while humans walk and run. Compare leg strength & endurance, and (fit) humans will have the chimps beat by miles.

You can see this carried out to an extreme with canines, particularly sled dogs. They evolved to run long distances, then were selectively bred by humans to excel at this.



> ...but it doesn't change the biological fact that as a population humans are physically weaker than other animals for their strength to weight.


Except that they aren't. If we take a comparison to the horse, an average horse ought to be able to output about 1 horsepower (by definition). Yet a human (again, a fit one) at about 1/5 the weight can produce up to 0.4 horsepower.



> People have done long term research into this stuff and that's what they have found.


Show me. I can't find much in the way of such research, and what I do find with Google shows that humans stack up about average in strength to weight, and better than most in endurance.

But none of this is really relevant to bonding, or whether animals have or don't have any particular mental capacity.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I board my horse. My BO does all the feeding, cleaning and turnout. So, my gelding has no incentive to see me as the provider of food. He gets minimal treats (he gets very mouthy if given too many treats). Knowing this, how would you explain that if my BO and I were to stand at opposite ends of the turnout with no food or treats, my gelding would come to me 100% of the time without me having to say a word?

I can not go out to the barn for weeks on end and Aires will always come straight to the gate when he sees me. I have never taught him to lower his head to be haltered, yet he'll drop his nose into the halter for me (and only me...anyone else has to reach up to almost his full head height to halter him). I could go on, but I'll keep it short by saying that there are many, many things that I can do with Aires that no one else would even dream of trying. I trust him and he trusts me. 100%. All the time.

Now, I agree that this "speshul, majickal, my horsey would never hurt me, we have such a great bond" stuff we see is complete hogwash. I may trust my horse 100%, but I know that he's still a horse and is definitely capable of injuring me, even unintentionally. Just ask my dislocated finger, badly sprained wrist, swollen and scraped up face, knees that I still can't kneel on three months later, and my thoroughly battered ego from when Aires bolted and pulled me to the dirt. I don't blame him for hurting me. He was terrified and did what any prey animal would do: he got the heck out of there. 

The word bond means something that binds, fastens, or holds together. It also means an agreement that binds a person or persons to a line of behavior. There is NOTHING in the definition of the word bond that suggests it is solely something between a mother and child. Also, by the logic presented that bonding is something solely felt by humans, then it does not apply to dogs and more than it applies to horses (which has been stated by others on this thread, that dogs can bond, yet horses can't).

Here's the thing, though. If we follow the line of reasoning that horses cannot love or have any other human emotion, then we cannot, in good conscience, say that they trust or respect, as those are human constructs and emotions as well. Which goes against everything that any of us have been taught as horsemen and women.

Are horses capable of love? I honestly don't know. I'd like to think so. Not in the "majickal unicorn" way, but in the way that, at liberty in an arena, my gelding prefers to come and rest his head in my lap, rather than wander around and explore or play. Also in the way that he knew I was having a panic attack and pushed his head gently into my chest and stood there quietly while I had tears streaming down my face and tried to get myself back under control. Neither of those behaviors are "instinctual." They show a capacity to understand (on some level) and to care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HadleyBug (Jul 10, 2014)

Though I like your idea of Magnetic Connection SaddleBag, I must disagree with you on bonding being a maternal instinct. For instance, my twin brother and I share an incredible bond.. One whom somebody without a twin couldn't comprehend. We know each others feelings. He can look at me and read my emotions like an open book and vice versa, even though that saying is beat to death there is no other way for me to explain it. We can and do finish each others sentences.. And he calls me or face times me, even sometimes shows up, when he feels I am upset about something. We went to some quack Psychiatrist who tried to play us off as psychic, but went to another who said it is a twin thing that others can't imagine.. Some have it and some don't, it just depends on the two individuals. And that we don't understand it because our parents don't and they passed the confusion onto us. Of course some have a different description of maternal, but I think of it as only a "mother to offspring" relationship, where I disagree 100%. 

My whole point in the above was to say, nobody can tell you that you don't have a bond with anything or anyone. That is your emotion toward the situation. I will go so far to say I have a bond with _most_ of my animals. Some don't give me the time of day because they were trained for working and doing their job, and that is all they know how to do. 

I have to say, those teenie girls doing incredibly dangerous things with their horses does NOT mean there is a bond. They lay under their horses and have their horses put their hooves, legs, heads, etc on them, which a horse could hurt you, whether they mean to or not. I'm pretty sure we have all seen the epitome of clumsy in a horse/pony.. Imagine that epitome of horse/pony with its hoof on your chest, stomach, face, etc. *NO THANKS*. 

We shouldn't be shaming the word "bond" though. It's not an evil word.. Some just don't understand it. And it is perfectly fine not to understand something. 

But with that said, I think horses are very capable of love and affection. I have been saved by horses on multiple occasions, them standing by me, in front of me and being calm in VERY nerve racking moments. And I have seen a horse bolt because of Velcro, the rider flying off the horses back and then the horse walking back to the rider with his head low in sort of an apology. Not only to come back to the rider but touch her with his nose and sniff her face. A bond to me is created on a balance of utmost respect and affection all the way. Which affection is different to all horses, some just want to be left alone. And with that, I leave them alone. Some like to be near me but not have me pay any mind to them. Some like to be up my *** and want to be pet every second I am there. A big ol' scratch to the noggin or belly or neck. My space bubble-busters love me. I feel they do. And not only on ground, but in saddle. They do what I ask, sometimes know what I am about to ask and do it. It shows love to me. 

But one thing we can all agree on, in this very diversely thought thread, is that the young girls doing dangerous tasks with their horses "who love them so much" does not show a bond. It shows stupidity with horses, and lack of respect for an animal that is more than 10x your weight.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Personally, I think horses are more intuitive than they are intelligent. I think if a horse could rationalize, we'd have a devil of a time training it. Horses are what they are and I appreciate that!


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I have a bond with my horse. I treat her real well and she doesn't beat me up too bad when I do something stupid.

When I start to fall off the saddle during a spook, she stops spooking and waits for me to get back in balance before she finishes.

She ignores my terrible cues and keeps doing the same exercise over and over for me until I get it right and she doesn't hold it against me when it takes way too long for me to get there.

In return, I give her plenty of carrots, lots of extra grooming, fly spray, back checkups and adjustments, and great hoof trimming. I keep her busy and active but give her days of rest too and don't ask her to do things she can't.

Now that's what I call a bond.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

James, is arguing about that really even relevant? 

I just read above 'was browsing FB' & it reminded me... 'my nice horsey won't hurt me' is no more unrealistic than some of the IDIOTIC & DANGEROUS 'cute' things & poses people do with kids/babies & dogs!!



> I think if a horse could rationalize, we'd have a devil of a time training it.


What's the saying... For a person to be a good dog trainer, they must be smarter than the dog in question. That's why some breeds are harder to train than others!


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

jamesqf said:


> Well, I'd have to say that it changes the fact that your fact's not a fact  First, there's no real tradeoff between strength and fine motor control - see for instance the elephant's trunk. Second, humans simply don't have superior fine motor control, in general, though of course that control may be located in different areas in different species.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ill find the relevant research for you, and see if I can attach some journal articles.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree with Loosie, the amount of down right dangerous things people do with dogs and children is terrifying. I also think that it is wrong to just assert that only teenage girls can have a rainbows and unicorns look at horses. I have seen a scary number of middle aged people who have the idea that if their horse loves them it won't hurt them. I even worked with wolves for a while. We had a woman swear she had a "spiritual connection" her words not mine with the alpha female of the pack. Her logic was because the wolf had followed just behind her as she walked around the outside perimeter of the fencing. What is one woman's spiritual connection is another person's stalking.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I couldn't really explain what annoys me about the term "bond" or "bonding" when it is used in reference to horses. Until today.

I'm home for four days and two friends were playing in two different polo games, early and late, so I offered to help each.

So I handled twelve different horses plus my own and two others that I know well who weren't being played.

One of the horses I groomed has a reputation for being difficult on the ground. Another was sleepy. A third was terrified of nearby llamas orgling and he wanted to head south where he never had been bothered with those.

My point is that each horse deserved to have their needs met in a way they could respond safely. Looks don't matter. Their response to me doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if I like their gaits or if I own them or whatever.

If I am handling a horse, whether I own it, am doing a favor, or am getting paid, I have made a commitment to give the horse the best of what I can. 

If I waited, or checked for, some bond with each horse... not much would get done.

So the bottom line is that the "bonding" that some describe is too exclusive to me. What? If they don't feel something they won't treat one horse as well as the next? Each deserves the best regardless of some humans emotions.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I didn't see where anyone said anything about treating one differently due to a bond. I treat both my horses (and the family horses that are in my herd) equally well. I worked at a vet clinic, and treated all those horses just as well as I would treat my own. I don't need a bond to treat a horse the way they should be treated. I was even quite nice to the naughty little zebra that stayed with us (she was actually quite a bit nicer when she left then when she came). And I wouldn't expect to bond with a strange horse I'm just 'helping' with for the day. 

There is a difference to me between a bond and a connection. I have a connection to my older gelding, but like I said we have a working relationship. He doesn't love me, he doesn't even like me, but he is obedient and tolerant of me. He took some time to get to where we are, and I don't think it will ever be more then what it is now, and I'm fine with that. 

My two are as different as night and day, I do things for Zane that I don't need to do for Quest.

Someone mentioned we keep our horses fenced in because if we didn't they'd run away, and I'm sure that is the case for some, but for the most part the reason I have fences is to keep my neighbors happy (and keep random driver bys from calling the cops). Growing up my horse spent as much of her time loose on our property as she did penned up. She didn't have anywhere else she wanted to go. When we redid the fence instead of penning her somewhere else we just let have the run of the place til it was back up.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Roperchick said:


> ...and giving human emotions or whatever to them. Just no. Lol


Of course they don't have human emotions, they have horse emotions, because they're horses. That's a very different thing from saying they don't have emotions, period.

And if we're going to argue about that, let's start with something basic, like fear. Anyone want to argue that their horse doesn't feel fear? Then explain why they spook  And why, at a biochemical level, they have very similar physiological reactions*, including adrenaline release, to a similarly fearful human?

Because biologically all us mammals are pretty much alike, just different twigs out at the end of one branch of the tree of life  See e.g. http://www.tolweb.org/tree?group=Eutheria&contgroup=Mammalia


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> Of course they don't have human emotions, they have horse emotions, because they're horses. That's a very different thing from saying they don't have emotions, period.
> 
> And if we're going to argue about that, let's start with something basic, like fear. Anyone want to argue that their horse doesn't feel fear? Then explain why they spook  And why, at a biochemical level, they have very similar physiological reactions*, including adrenaline release, to a similarly fearful human?
> 
> Because biologically all us mammals are pretty much alike, just different twigs out at the end of one branch of the tree of life  See e.g. Eutheria


Nowhere has anyone said horses don't have emotions period. 

Arguing just for the sake of arguing.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

jamesqf said:


> Of course they don't have human emotions, they have horse emotions, because they're horses. That's a very different thing from saying they don't have emotions, period.
> 
> And if we're going to argue about that, let's start with something basic, like fear. Anyone want to argue that their horse doesn't feel fear? Then explain why they spook  And why, at a biochemical level, they have very similar physiological reactions*, including adrenaline release, to a similarly fearful human?
> 
> Because biologically all us mammals are pretty much alike, just different twigs out at the end of one branch of the tree of life  See e.g. Eutheria


please dont twist my words around to prove your own point. i never said horses did not have emotions, i said people like to give their horses human emotions/traits. Anthropomorphize. 


Im saying a girl that says she makes a promise to a horse 10 yrs ago and they had such a "super special bond and they were absolute BFFS" and thinks a horse is going to understand what shes saying and hold her to this magical promise 10 years later after hes been through multiple other owners? wheres the validity? wheres the proof? wheres the logic?

my horses love and hate me. they know when I'm bringing a saddle out to work them hard, they know when its a lazy day of treats and little kids. horses can know when to be super gentle and careful with a timid rider, they're smart and quick minded on how much they can get away with.

the longer I've been with a certain horse the more it will express. My mare who I have had for 13? years will greet me when I come home after being stationed away for 3 years. My colt couldn't care less and would take a week before it would click that I am the one who raised and trained him. 

they can pick up on your emotions and will react in their own way.

but

they're animals. they aren't going to express these emotions in a human way.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

oh my no offense to th op of that thread but she needed a reality check badly. I had a "bond" with the first horse I ever trained showed and leased but when things got heated at the barn and I left I was devastated that I couldn't buy him. But at least I knew where he was and I got my mare shortly after. Though i did see Nilla recently and he nickered at me and walked up to me but I'm not so naive to think we had a speshul bond. Me and him clicked and I think he remembered me. However if he was sold I wouldn't do what that girl did especially since Nilla was not my horse. I may ask the current owner if she has heard anything about him but that would be the extent of it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

.Delete. said:


> Nowhere has anyone said horses don't have emotions period.


I have heard people say precisely that actually... not here tho. Some people believe the strangest things...:lol:



> Arguing just for the sake of arguing.


That you call a debate, don't you??:lol:


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

And how argumentative is it to argue that someone posted just to argue? :smile::smile::smile:


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

squirrelfood said:


> And how argumentative is it to argue that someone posted just to argue? :smile::smile::smile:


I was hoping no one would catch on to my plan :lol::lol:


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Roperchick said:


> please dont twist my words around to prove your own point. i never said horses did not have emotions, i said people like to give their horses human emotions/traits. Anthropomorphize.


You shouldn't take general statements personally, you know.

Now YOU may have not said that horses don't have emotions (though I did read it that way), but quite a few people have.



> Im saying a girl that says she makes a promise to a horse 10 yrs ago and they had such a "super special bond and they were absolute BFFS" and thinks a horse is going to understand what shes saying and hold her to this magical promise 10 years later after hes been through multiple other owners?


But now you're going way to the other extreme, and getting into Disney rainbow unicorn fart territory. Both extremes are wrong (as extremes so often are).


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

Then maybe we both misread each others posts.


If you look at my original post.....that extreme is what I was talking about in the first place. Haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Roperchick said:


> Then maybe we both misread each others posts.


Easily done. I can't begin to count the number of times that I've written something that seemed perfectly clear to me, only to have the people who read it think I meant to say something completely different.



> If you look at my original post.....that extreme is what I was talking about in the first place. Haha


Yes. And there's this: if I can't always accurately communicate with another human using words in the same language, how much harder is it to communicate with a horse? So even if you (generic you, not you personally) think you have this great bond, the horse isn't saying what s/he thinks about it. We can only judge the horse's attitude by its actions.

Which is part of the reason I tend to get along with horses better than humans, because with humans there's so often a bit of a gap between what they say and what they actually do.


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## clumsychelsea (Jul 9, 2014)

Are we arguing about arguing?! Amazing.

Anyway, I haven't read most of this thread, but I just wanted to chime in because of a google search I just did... I was looking up some simple groundwork exercises to inspire me to try some new things with my horse and 99% of the results were, "how to bond with your horse", or "how to create an unbreakable bond"! 

I'm not sure of my opinion on the matter entirely, but goodness gracious, all I wanted were some ideas of ground exercises, not hugs and kisses and treats, LOL. (Shockingly, a lot of the articles genuinely did say just to hug and pet and give treats and your horse will "love" and respect you. Sigh.)


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

clumsychelsea said:


> (Shockingly, a lot of the articles genuinely did say just to hug and pet and give treats and your horse will "love" and respect you. Sigh.)


Well, would your spouse love you if you didn't give them hugs and pets (and probably treats?) Think about it.


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## clumsychelsea (Jul 9, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Well, would your spouse love you if you didn't give them hugs and pets (and probably treats?) Think about it.


A horse is not a spouse, surprisingly.  Hugs and treats are all well and nice, but not if you think they're the magical end all training mechanism like the articles I read thought.


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## BKLD (Aug 11, 2013)

.Delete. said:


> Trying to "bond" with horses is dangerous period. They are not pets. They are work animals.


^^This is a statement that I have a problem with. I understand how people need to be careful around their horses and see them as horses, but I see horses as pets, as members of the family as much as my dog or bird. 

Personally, I feel that there is appropriate "bonding" and inappropriate "bonding". You can't "play" with a horse or "cuddle" a horse like you can with a dog. They're very different animals. A lot of people do not understand horses (heck, dogs are much more common, and I find that a lot of people don't understand dogs!), and so most do inappropriate and frankly stupid sort of "bonding", such as aforementioned playing and cuddling. Appropriate bonding is treating the horse like a horse, and staying safe.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Let me rephrase "Trying to do my definition of bonding (the fantasy crap) is dangerous period. Horses are not pets. They are work animals"


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I think we're all on basically the same page (or in the same book at least) LOL.

True, the fantasy "My horsey luvs me sooo much and we have such an amaaazzzingg bond that he would never, ever, ever hurt me" thing is utter shtuff.

However, it is entirely possible to "click" with a horse. Some people might call that a bond.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Animals like dogs, cats and even horses are as capable as humans of appreciating affection. That's not to say you use it as a stand alone training method but it can be a way to show them you're pleased with what they've achieved
My husbands horse goes and puts her head gently into his arms for a scratch and a 'cuddle', she doesn't do it to anyone else and she's really well behaved to handle.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

^^^my made goes to the closest human and demands they hold her head up when she gets tranqed for vet work....does that count??? Lol.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I do think humans can have a bond with horses. absolutely. it comes as a result of all the things you do with the horse for groundwork and riding, not as the goal.

Im in the process of " bonding" with the new horse I am riding. it comes down to being consistent, fair and predictable. that's what a horse needs from a human 

I ask the same thing the same way as much as possible. I accept his try and ask him for a bit more when I know he can say "yes". I look for itchy spots to scratch for him. give him treats in a bucket , make sure to offer him water, do the girth up slowly. scratch his ears just the way he likes it. I try to get 'with' him when he moves out. 

really, bonding with horses is being fair and predictable in your expectations, and setting consistent and clear limits.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Wow. This thread is moving faster than I can keep up with. There's a few things going on in here that could be interesting if they were spun off into a separate thread. I might tackle that sometime.

Let me start by saying that I am in the camp that defines horses as livestock. I've had or worked with a few horses that one could say I had a "bond" with. I'm under no illusions that those horses "loved" me. We simply worked well together. 

I did silly, dangerous things around my pony as a kid. That wasn't bonding. I knew it was dangerous. That was part of the fun.

I also know of what may be an example of the "butterfly farts and unicorn rainbows" aspect of things. There is a special needs kid at the barn where I do most of my riding. She's now in her 20's, but has been riding at least since she was a pre-teen. She does all the luvy duvy stuff, but also doesn't hesitate to correct a horse who doesn't behave. Her father explained to us how they came to own the horse she rides now. The kid is fearless around horses, and often pushes beyond her abilities. They had leased a series of horses, including the one they now own. They were on a trail ride and the girl got into a bit of trouble and was coming off of the horse. The horse stepped under her and prevented the fall. The same thing happened a second time, and the father plunked down cash for the horse right then. Is that a "special bond" or a well trained trail horse?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hey all, much enjoying reading this lengthy discussion. 

Some thoughts:

1) If the movie industry adds objectionable connotations to a perfectly reasonable term, should that lead to everyone else abandoning the term in disgust, or imagining that only the saccharine definition now exists? I think not – let's reclaim that term. (Otherwise we will also be throwing out much abused terms like “love” and “marriage” and “freedom” - and the proverbial baby with the bathwater.)

2) James has already made some very pertinent points about the biological side of this argument which I was glad to see represented in the debate. _In__appropriate anthropomorphising_ is a problem on one side of the spectrum which many of us recognise: Treating a member of a different species as if it actually were _**** sapiens _(and usually in infantile form). This can cause communication difficulties, and neglect of the unique needs of another species. How many of us here wince when we see people pushing dogs in prams, and dressing them up in booties and hair ribbons? That way the dog is reduced to a mere human pseudo-infant, and its true needs are often neglected, like having appropriate relationships with its humans and other dogs, and lots of physical exercise and mental stimulation (...and species-appropriate nutrition!). Also, the human being is not stretched by the amazing potential for learning and interesting experiences that comes with forging a two-way relationship with a member of a _different species_, and the changes in world view that inevitably come when we can start to see the world through their eyes. They are stuck instead in a limiting and dysfunctional relationship not very different from co-dependency in humans, with all its ugly consequences.

But on the other side of the spectrum is another, less recognised problem: An _anthropocentric_ perspective that draws inappropriate dividing lines between humans and other animal species as if humans were totally “other” in some overriding biological way, which they are not. Humans and the domesticated animals with which they most often work and play are all mammals, and social mammals at that – i.e. part of a smallish subset of a vast catalogue of living things on earth. So, neurally, anatomically, physiologically, and behaviorally, humans and dogs/cats/horses(/apes/cows/sheep) are actually vastly more similar than they are different (and the more related, the more similar overall _generally_). I think a blindness to the many genuine similarities is as limiting a perspective as a blindness to the (fewer) genuine differences. The relationships that result from it are master-servant or man-machine, which are stunted and quite limited compared to the rich relationships of warm teamwork and mutual respect and affection.

Part of the human cultural baggage is a “cream of creation” complex, that led many animal behaviour specialists in the past to hold off from publishing genuine observations on the behaviour of social animals they were studying, because it contradicted the rather mechanical and primitive view of animals at the time. This is now being slowly rectified. An interesting interview with one of the most recognised specialists on primate behaviour appears here: 

Jane Goodall Interview -- Academy of Achievement: Print Preview


It was Martin Luther King (incorrectly thought of by many of his contemporaries as a “lesser being” because he was African-American) who, after studying philosophy, remarked: “An adequate understanding (of competing philosophical theories) is found neither in the thesis nor the antithesis, but in a synthesis which reconciles the truths of both.”

This statement, though made specifically in the context of philosophy, is also often a useful tool for more general debates. If you make your own synthesis of opposing viewpoints, this is unlikely to mean you will arrive at the geometrical midpoint (wherever that is) of the debate. But, a synthesis steers away from extreme points of view, and promotes understanding of (and _partial_ agreement with) different points of view.

A humorous way to look at curly debates, originally written in the context of theological disagreements:


*The Blind Men and the Elephant*

by John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887)

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined, 
Who went to see the Elephant 
(Though all of them were blind), 
That each by observation 
Might satisfy his mind 

The First approached the Elephant, 
And happening to fall 
Against his broad and sturdy side, 
At once began to bawl: 
God bless me! but the Elephant 
Is very like a wall! 

The Second, feeling of the tusk, 
Cried, Ho! what have we here 
So very round and smooth and sharp? 
To me tis mighty clear 
This wonder of an Elephant 
Is very like a spear! 

The Third approached the animal, 
And happening to take 
The squirming trunk within his hands, 
Thus boldly up and spake: 
I see, quoth he, the Elephant 
Is very like a snake! 

The Fourth reached out an eager hand, 
And felt about the knee. 
What most this wondrous beast is like 
Is mighty plain, quoth he; 
'Tis clear enough the Elephant 
Is very like a tree! 

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, 
Said: Even the blindest man 
Can tell what this resembles most; 
Deny the fact who can 
This marvel of an Elephant 
Is very like a fan!? 

The Sixth no sooner had begun 
About the beast to grope, 
Than, seizing on the swinging tail 
That fell within his scope, 
I see, quoth he, the Elephant 
Is very like a rope! 

And so these men of Indostan 
Disputed loud and long, 
Each in his own opinion 
Exceeding stiff and strong, 
Though each was partly in the right, 
And all were in the wrong! 

Moral: 

So oft in theologic wars, 
The disputants, I ween, 
Rail on in utter ignorance 
Of what each other mean, 
And prate about an Elephant 
Not one of them has seen! 


(This poem is also always useful for thoughtful self-reflection. It could be misappropriated as a shillelagh with which to beat people with different points of view to our own over the head, but that would be missing the point...and unproductive.)


PS:











;-)


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

That was an excellent post, SueC, and a delightful read! Thank you for your valuable input.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> Let me rephrase "Trying to do my definition of bonding (the fantasy crap) is dangerous period. Horses are not pets. They are work animals"


Accepting your statement just for the sake of discussion, do you suppose it's just barely possible that the work might get done better if there was some sort of a (non-disney) bond, than if the human treats the horse as the biological equivalent of a tractor or motorcycle? From what I've seen, it certainly seems to work that way in practice.

Personally, I've never done anything with a horse that I would consider work, and never expect to. So to me (and probably to most of us) the horse IS a pet. Of course a pet horse can't be treated exactly like a pet dog, but neither can a pet cat or bird.

OTOH, I could say that I'm using my dogs for 'work' when I take them out skijoring, even though all of us appear to be having a good time. I could even say that I 'play' with my horse, when I get her to do things like run beside me. At least I'm playing - of course I don't really know what's going on in her mind: maybe it's Skinnerian conditioned obedience, maybe it's the expectation of carrots.


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## LyraFreedom (Jan 13, 2013)

Sounds like most of Y'all are just jealous. Allot of people don't bond with their horses(you)but allot of people do(us). I know quite a few younger and not at all young equestrians whom have amazing relationships with their horses and they do actually run into the barn wagging their tails like dogs just to go for a ride. My horse is the most important thing in the world to me, he saved my life.


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## LyraFreedom (Jan 13, 2013)

If you hadn't bonded with your horse at some point than walking up to them would be like walking up to a wild Mustang haha.

Sounds like you just made a big deal about not liking one little word, most british people don't like the word Panties but I don't see them arguing about how supid and Disney fantasy like it is.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> Accepting your statement just for the sake of discussion, do you suppose it's just barely possible that the work might get done better if there was some sort of a (non-disney) bond, than if the human treats the horse as the biological equivalent of a tractor or motorcycle? From what I've seen, it certainly seems to work that way in practice.


It's certainly possible. That is just not I personally operate. I treat all the horses I work with very well. I hose them off after every ride, I brush them down, I'll rub on them, I'll talk to them in childish stupid voices, I'll goof around with them. But I never think of them as a pet. 

There is nothing wrong with people having horses as pets, that's all well and fine. I don't try to "connect" with a horse because 100% of the time the horse I'm working with isn't mine. I train these work animals to be some ones pet, to "tolerate" people "loving" on them. IMO horses work better for me when I have no emotional connection to them what so ever.

I've often heard that the best trainers are the ones who don't get emotionally involved in what they are riding. Which is what I strive to do. When I did own horses I never kept them very long as it was. I was always flipping them. I get very bored very easily with the horses I'm riding and I'm always looking for the next "project". 

There is nothing wrong with having horses as a companion, as long as you're safe and not irrational about it. There is also nothing wrong with seeing horses as a business, work animal, or livestock. The horses I sit on work just fine for me. 

I would venture to say that "some" people with horses for pets let their horses get away with more by giving them excuses. I understand this doesn't hold true for everyone, I know plenty of people on this site with horses for pets and they keep their ponies in line. However, when you get emotionally involved with a horse there are tendencies to "forgive" them easier. OR the latter and take bad behavior personally. Because "he's you're wittle toot pony and he didn't mean to kick you". 

That is why I believe that in some cases, horses should not be viewed as pets. An people's emotional connections to them can cloud their judgment and lead to a dangerous situation.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

I haven't seen this "butterfly farts and rainbow unicorn" junk personally. So I really don't believe it. I do believe that some people put their horses hooves on their body - but have not seen that personally. I am smart enough to tell right from wrong and know that doing stupid stuff COULD get you hurt - even nonstupid stuff can. So going back onto topic about BONDING (which I think we've strayed off of a couple times now?)...

I don't know if my horse and I have a bond. I'd say maybe. He doesn't gallop to the gate to greet me but sometimes he will walk up to me as I'm walking to him (sometimes he'll walk the other way >_>). Some mornings if I'm down there, especially during pig months, he.would be waiting at the barn and would nicker - or neigh, whichever one is louder - at me. Either saying hello or wanting food, either way it made me feel happy he was calling out to me. And he will continue walking if I let go of the lead rope (sling it over him) or he'll follow me if I'm out in front. And sometimes I'll just stand there, leaning on him, breathing in the best smell ever: horse (which he finally has! It used to smell like dust ). I don't know if you'd call it a bond or not.

I would say bonding has to be based on respect and trust. You want your horse to respect you but also think you aren't a monster coming to eat him. Same with you. Respect your horse because he's liable to kick you in the face, and not always you can trust them completely, maybe 50%. 

I think bonding comes through spending time with your horse: grooming, riding, training, etc. 

And about them being or not being pets - no. They are horses IMO. You can't cuddle with them like a dog or cat. But I don't think of my horse as a work animal. He's a horse and a friend to me. And just so happens he gives piggyback rides. :rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

I keep stallions and mares. I INSIST each one be on its best behavior any time I'm handling them. And I still hand-feed carrots and apple slices to all but one of them. SHE simply doesn't GET "no snatching" (boss mare, of course). I also deliver lots of pats and hugs. They are livestock and I enjoy them immensely. Lots of farmers around here treat their cows as well too. Still doesn't make them pets or "mystical best friends who magickly bond with me and love me forever", although I'm pretty sure they like me well enough to be happy with me.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

I agree. If my horse gets too pushy (even without treats) he'll get his head pushed away or "chicken winged", where I pop my elbow out to get him to quit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We had a lot of what we call DIY liveries at the place I worked at in the UK (self boarding?) and there were always a few horses/ponies that would only be caught by their owners (who also rode them and handled them very responsively) it didn't matter how many treats you had with you they wouldn't go to anyone else but the person they recognized as their owner and to me that means there's a bond that's unique to one relationship that horses are capable of


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Our Hereford bull would only come in if Dad or me called for him. I wouldn't consider THAT big boy a pet! We just happened to be the ones responsible for feeding him.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I am only on page 6 but I have two stories. The first is of my Father who had a pony at Bradwell's Livery in Albany years and years ago (80 years). Bradwell was US Cavalry and while the horses might have been thin they were all groomed thoroughly every day and taken out for exercise on a string every day.. with my then 8 year old (sic) Father on the lead mare at the head of the string. This was 1930 at the start of the Great Depression. 

My Father had a favorite horse at the stable (in addition to his naughty pony). The horse was a sorrel, "Jim Dandy." Every day my Father would arrive at the stable to work and would give Jim a carrot or some other treat. Jim developed an affinity for my Father to the point where if someone rented Jim and my Father would show up, Jim would rid himself of the rider and come to my Father and follow him around like a dog. 

One day out on a trail ride with his parents, my Father was riding Jim Dandy. They were cantering along and hit a patch of sand (the Albany Pine Bush is a sand plain). Jim did a bad step and fell.. and my Father ended up with one foot stuck in a stirrup hanging upside down. Jim had wrenched a shoulder and was 3 legged lame.. and it was a good thing because he wanted to run off but could not on three legs. Instead he kept spinning and alternately trying to kick my father in the head. His parents came back and go my Father out of that fix and he lead the horse back.. hobbling on 3 legs. The horse healed, but my Father learned that a "bond" with a horse lasted about as long as all was well. 

When I was young I read EVERY horse book I could get my hands on. EVERY horse book. Marguerit Henry, Walter Farley, Mary O'Hara, Will James and every factual book I could on training and riding. Everything. Beyond my reading level or not (made me a better reader). I took lessons on horses every chance I could and drew them. At Age 12 we moved to a 5 acre place and my sister (who was older and had a job) bought a horse. I spent every waking spare minute with that horse... and rode him to pony club every week where I had lessons. HE taught me there is no such thing as the Black Stallion or Flicka and Fury. That said, I rode him everywhere.. and in the hot summer down to the creek where we spent the day swimming in the deep hole and lazing in the shade. He was the ONLY horse so I was his herd. 

Make no mistake.. a couple of years later when we got horse number 2 that business of me being his herd went right out the window. 

That horse and I knew each other intimately well and he was very very well trained (I had him for nearly 20 years).. but I would not call the relationship a bond. 

The relationship I had with my dog of those years? That was a bond. The horse relationship? Not. Just plain Not. 

That horse was the ONLY horse I had that I eventually put down. All others were sold at some point. I liked some of those a lot and some were very talented.

I never heard of "bonding" with a horse (or "natural horsemanship" for that matter) until I got a computer and went on a couple of horse forums.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I think Elana brings up a valuable point: the horse may like you and enjoy your company more than others, but he remains a horse. Enough pain, shock, surprise will generate fear and it becomes every horse for himself, so to speak.

I believe good training creates a habit pattern so strong that the horse will obey even when shocked, hurt or afraid - at least, that is my goal. When my mare drags her rump thru a cactus neither of us saw and has a rear full of spines, it is the 500-1000 previous stops in response to a bump on the reins that gets her to stop. A 'bond' would only tell her, "_Something behind us hurts, save us both by running as fast as you can!_"

I used to be embarrassed by the amount of time we spend dinking around in our little arena, practicing turns, neck reining, backing, stopping, etc. I now view that as a time to add another 100 good stops and turns to her total, so that when she is nervous or surprised by a truck, a bicyclist, a dog, cactus, a bee sting, etc, she will instinctively follow her training - and respond correctly to the cues because she has done so thousands of times before and it no longer requires any thought from her.

A bond, or clicking with your horse, or having a good personality mix with your horse - that is fun. It is the icing on the cake. But it is training that can get a scared horse to stop in its tracks when hurt, saving both horse and rider. IMHO. And the bonus is that training will work regardless of who is riding, provided the cues match the training!

In military flying, certain things are "boldface". What you should do if you enter a spin, for example. The boldface must be memorized word for word, and you are tested regularly. Fail your boldface exam, and you are grounded. Why?

When the poop hits the fan, and you enter a spin, there isn't time to think. You must react, and react perfectly. By drilling the boldface, a pilot in an emergency simply responds to a spin, fire, etc. That is the sort of training I want with my horse for things like "turn now" or "stop" - a habit that kicks in without the horse even thinking about it.


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## PaintingPintos (Jul 24, 2012)

jamesqf said:


> Accepting your statement just for the sake of discussion, do you suppose it's just barely possible that the work might get done better if there was some sort of a (non-disney) bond, than if the human treats the horse as the biological equivalent of a tractor or motorcycle? From what I've seen, it certainly seems to work that way in practice.
> 
> Personally, I've never done anything with a horse that I would consider work, and never expect to. So to me (and probably to most of us) the horse IS a pet. Of course a pet horse can't be treated exactly like a pet dog, but neither can a pet cat or bird.
> 
> OTOH, I could say that I'm using my dogs for 'work' when I take them out skijoring, even though all of us appear to be having a good time. I could even say that I 'play' with my horse, when I get her to do things like run beside me. At least I'm playing - of course I don't really know what's going on in her mind: maybe it's Skinnerian conditioned obedience, maybe it's the expectation of carrots.



That's an excellent point! Another thing I'd like to add to your statements is, if a horse NEVER has fun or is NEVER entertained and is ALWAYS treated as a work animal/machine, that's a REALLY lousy life that animal is living. I see why any horse like that would turn herd-sour or start kicking/biting.... you MUST have some sort of bond or partnership that ends with a release of pressure and some kind of positive enforcement or you're going to have a miserable pony on your hands.

Plus, like you say, playing with horses is better than working. When you're in the saddle, you should always present a challenge for both you and the horse. You shouldn't just direct a horse to do something, you're giving them signals and you both have to figure out exactly what those signals mean and what they translate into. I adore playing with horses-- running around with them, chasing eachother around, playing "fetch" (my trainer has a colt who is pretty much a large dog....he will fetch almost any liftable item you can throw), hide and seek (just hiding behind things and making funny noises until the horse finds you, then you give a treat or scratching), etc etc. There are a hundred ways you can play with a horse, and if you've never played then shame on you! There's an article somewhere that's about "100 things you can do with a box" that deals with entertaining yourself and your dog with a simple cardboard box. You don't even have to use a clicker or have a dog with you to play with it-- have your horse pick it up, step in it, try to get all 4 feet in it, hop over it, toss it over the horse's back, put the box over your back and have the horse nudge it off, hide treats under the box, it's endless....


Okay, that was way longer than I meant it to be. I get sidetracked sometimes :lol:

Anyway, here is the box link..... 
101 Things to Do with a Box | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

They're horses - why would they not behave like horses!!!!
Bonding with horses is not the same as friendship in the human or even dog sense. Its more about trust, familiarity and dependency. 
It has nothing to do with them being pets either
My grt grandfathers horses were all work animals and never treated as pets but he still had a bond with them


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"There are a hundred ways you can play with a horse, and if you've never played then shame on you!"

Hmmm...guess it is time for me to crawl under my bed with shame. Trooper is already none too fond of me, and Mia would have nothing but contempt for me if I tried playing with her. My 3 horses seem to like reasonable behavior - behavior with a purpose. They understand "work". Mine would view "play" as harassment, or incipient insanity on my part.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

bsms said:


> I think Elana brings up a valuable point: the horse may like you and enjoy your company more than others, but he remains a horse. Enough pain, shock, surprise will generate fear and it becomes every horse for himself, so to speak.


And this is different from humans in what way, exactly?

Ever try to rescue a drowning person, and have them almost pull you under with them?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Actually, I rarely rescue people from drowning here in the Sonoran Desert. However, I regularly need my horse to do something that might make no sense to HER ideas of self-preservation but that WILL increase her odds, and mine, of surviving. That is why I train my horse.

If I ever need to rescue the same person over and over again, I'll be sure to try to train them and not rely on my 'bond' with them...


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I like the Julie Goodnight quote about the only conversation you need to have with your horse... "Horse, this is your CAPTAIN speaking."
This is pretty simple, and of course we all have far more conversations than that but the point is that no matter what we are doing with a horse, the horse needs to know the rules and respect those boundaries (excluding some major disaster taking place).
I think it is difficult to express what we think horse emotions are. We all can understand fear. But I think probably most of our horses "like" us, for lack of a better term. We supply feed and grooming and some pretty good scratching.
Ours come running to me to save them from the neighbors July 4th rocket celebration. 
Maybe the best term is respect...and it works both ways.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My older son at 16 had a crazy (for want of a better word) relationship with our gelding. The horse was alone in his pasture. When my son came home from school he'd turn the horse loose. The horse trailer was backed up to ward the fence. My son would run around the side and hide and the horse would come looking. He'd jump up and the horse would take off bucking, then circle around looking to see where my son was. This craziness went on for about 15 min. The horse knew my son would jump out but he delighted in the game. Guess who was at the gate as soon as he knew my son was home? Treats or patting wasn't involved. When the game was over the horse followed my son back into the pasture.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

SueC said:


> But on the other side of the spectrum is another, less recognised problem: An _anthropocentric_ perspective that draws inappropriate dividing lines between humans and other animal species as if humans were totally “other” in some overriding biological way, which they are not. Humans and the domesticated animals with which they most often work and play are all mammals, and social mammals at that – i.e. part of a smallish subset of a vast catalogue of living things on earth. So, neurally, anatomically, physiologically, and behaviorally, humans and dogs/cats/horses(/apes/cows/sheep) are actually vastly more similar than they are different (and the more related, the more similar overall _generally_). I think a blindness to the many genuine similarities is as limiting a perspective as a blindness to the (fewer) genuine differences. The relationships that result from it are master-servant or man-machine, which are stunted and quite limited compared to the rich relationships of warm teamwork and mutual respect and affection.


Well said, and there is a middle ground between fantasy bonding and man – machine relationships. I think calling a horse your "partner" is naïve, since most horses, like most people, would not "work" if they didn't think they had to. But they are not machines either. I think of horses as employees – yes they are supposed to do what you want, but they also have some "rights."


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I agree that horses should have rights. My forward good trail horse taught me this. Our relationship was like a pendulum. By respecting this we wound up having an incredible relationship that for me was a real learning experience. I've mentioned elsewhere he'd shut down arena work at 20 minutes. I made the mistake of asking him for more and all I wound up with was a gnarly rebellious attitude. I learned to make the most of the time he allotted me and he'd do his best to cooperate. On the trail, we got into a tight spot and I tried to micromanage him. Wrong. On a loose rein and me sitting there like a bump, he sorted the situation out and handled it calmly. He had become the dictator. It's not that I tried to regain control, eg. whether we continue on or head home, he offered the decision to me and went along with it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

LyraFreedom said:


> Sounds like most of Y'all are just jealous. Allot of people don't bond with their horses(you)but allot of people do(us). I know quite a few younger and not at all young equestrians whom have amazing relationships with their horses and they do actually run into the barn wagging their tails like dogs just to go for a ride. My horse is the most important thing in the world to me, he saved my life.



I haven't read much past these posts so forgive me while I address this.

Lyra, I have a horse, and he is my favorite, probably the best I have ever owned out of the many.
I could tell you story about how one day I was bringing some cows down a fence line had to open a gate to let another cow in with the ones I had, they took off and I had to run out to get them put back together, my horse spooked at a rabbit that came out from under the brush, tripped and fell on me. Worried about getting my heavy snow pac boot caught in my stirrup I rolled over on my belly when he got up and lost my get down rope. He sees them cows take off and he peels out after them, he gets them gathered and stopped. I have to walk a half mile to catch up to them and he has them in a bunch except for one that jumped the fence. When I get close he leaves the cattle and trots over to me, I get on and we trail our cows to where they need to be. 
I could tell you that it was because of this magical bond we have but I am not. 
This horse loves his job, he works cattle by himself. He is also very smart and personable, he never met a person he didn't like. People remember him everywhere I take him despite his plain bay color, hound gut and small stature. 
Do I love him? You bet I do and I would be devastated if anything happened to him. I put him up in the ranks of my husband and family but I am not going to fool myself into thinking that he does these spectacular things just because he has a bond with me. 
Simply,he is just a great horse.



LyraFreedom said:


> *If you hadn't bonded with your horse at some point than walking up to them would be like walking up to a wild Mustang haha.
> *
> Sounds like you just made a big deal about not liking one little word, most british people don't like the word Panties but I don't see them arguing about how supid and Disney fantasy like it is.


 And to the bolded. My goodness..

I have horses I use for work that I do not own. We are not "bonded", some of them I don't even like to ride yet I can walk out into a several hundred or thousand acre field and catch. Not liking walking up to a wild mustang.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

You know, this whole bonding thread just rubs me wrong.

Because if you don't feel like horses have feelings and can "bond" (whatever that means to you) then why even have a horse? Why not just get an ATV? 

I am in it for the relationship with the animal. If I were not to care about the relationship with the animal, why not just get something with less maintenance? I care for horses because I love horses. But if someone isn't getting that out of the relationship, why even bother?

So all of those who say "horses are just livestock, blah, blah, blah...." what are you actually getting out of the relationship? Do you like a challenge? Have found some way to turn a profit? Because for me, I want a horse bonded with me. Now we can all talk about what constitutes a "bond." But gee, if I weren't wanting a bond I would get a bicycle!


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

I have seen Mustang horses in person, rode one, and petted some completely wild ones - or just lightly touched, whatever you'll call it. Walking up to them is WAY different than walking up to a domesticated horse that you don't have a bond with. With mustangs, you have to be slow and easy, not normal speed like he'll just stand there and let you touch his face. A trained one, maybe. Wild, no. Walking up to a horse you don't have a bond with is NO way the same as walking up to a wild Mustang, in my opinion.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> You know, this whole bonding thread just rubs me wrong.
> 
> Because if you don't feel like horses have feelings and can "bond" (whatever that means to you) then why even have a horse? Why not just get an ATV?
> 
> ...


 This thread rubs me wrong too.

My responses may seem cold to some. But I think I am realistic about my relationship with my horses. I do love my horses, I enjoy the time I spend with them other just riding, showing and work. I like to scratch on them, groom, sit on them bareback *but,* I don't have an over Disneyfied dream- my horses only love me and that I am the center of their world. (besides when I am feeding them) 
My horses have a great life they have jobs they enjoy and big grassy pastures that they are turned out on with other horses. Not much to complain about as far as a horse is concerned.

I have swung my leg over several hundred horses in my career thus far and I make a living on a horse. I can't have a special relationship with each one but what I can do is treat each horse as an individual and out of respect do the best I can for him whether it be training him or using him for a job and give him the best care I can.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Amen Chickie and flip Disney the bird.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My remark about little girls and the black stallion was not sexist. I raised two sons. They see animals a little differently from girls. I'm aware that a boy rode the stallion but the little girls seem to see it that a child "tamed" the beast and this is the dangerous fantasy. I now think of myself as having a magnetic connection, some days it's stronger or weaker or not at all.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I want to feel like me and my horse know each other and we are likely to know what each other's actions are in a given situation. I would like to trust my horse and have him/her trust me. I would like to think that if we get caught in slightly hairy situation, he will trust me to get him out of it. That's what I would call a bond. It's like being friends for a long time and know what each other is thinking.

That doesn't mean if the crap hits the fan, the horse won't bolt, buck or kick. They are horses and their flight instinct can kick in. But I like to think the longer we have worked together, the more likely we are to trust each other and have an understanding.

That's what I call a bond. 

Put me on a horse I've ridden for years and I will tell you we have a bond. Put me on a new horse, and I feel it takes at least a year to get to know it. I wouldn't buy a new horse and declare a bond for at least a year. Sometimes longer.

I have a gelding I raised from a foal and although I know he knows me well and is bonded with me in that respect, I still don't feel we have a bond under saddle. I still don't quite trust him not to do something crazy and he still doesn't quite trust me to protect him when he gets scared. We are starting to build trust, but we aren't there yet. When we get to where we can trust each other then I will call that a bond.

Not sure if that is what you want to call Disney or the Black Stallion, I personally don't think so. But it seems like there are black and white lines drawn with little middle ground on the subject. And if I had to choose, I would err on the side of bonding vs. not.  Because like I said, if I didn't want a bond I would get a machine instead.

Part of the attraction to me is spending time with another living, thinking, feeling being. Being out in the woods alone on a horse and feeling total harmony with them is a wonderful feeling I am drawn to. You are never alone if you have a good horse with you!


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

waresbear said:


> Amen Chickie and flip Disney the bird.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



this is. quite possibly. my favorite post of this thread. so mush sass haha


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> My responses may seem cold to some. But I think I am realistic about my relationship with my horses. I do love my horses, I enjoy the time I spend with them other just riding, showing and work. I like to scratch on them, groom, sit on them bareback *but,* I don't have an over Disneyfied dream- my horses only love me and that I am the center of their world.


Sure, and from what you've described, that's an entirely reasonable way to relate to horses, as it would be for anyone who rides many different horses. But not all people, horses, or relationships between the two are going to be the same. There's a lot of territory between the two extremes of Disney and motorcycle with legs.

I do know what it's like to 'bond' with a horse - not in the Disney sense, but in the reading each other's mind one. (And that's not just all in my head, since several people had remarked on how much better she was with me than other riders.) Yet I'm sure that if it had been me who dropped dead instead of her, she'd have gone on being a decent horse to whoever came along to ride her.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

squirrelfood said:


> I keep stallions and mares. I INSIST each one be on its best behavior any time I'm handling them. And I still hand-feed carrots and apple slices to all but one of them. SHE simply doesn't GET "no snatching" (boss mare, of course). I also deliver lots of pats and hugs. They are livestock and I enjoy them immensely. Lots of farmers around here treat their cows as well too. Still doesn't make them pets...


See, aside from the different attitudes of treating them like... animals, or friends(& that's mostly a matter of degree IMO), it all comes down to semantics, different perceptions of words IMO. Quoted your post Squirrel, as a good illustration of this, because to me, it applies just as well by changing 'horse/livestock' to 'dog'. So, my definition of 'pet' is very different to yours it seems:wink:. Obviously our _experiences_ are quite different, which is where we've _developed our attitudes_ & concepts. 

While I SO get the 'wincing' at ideas & terms like 'bonding', 'natural', 'join up', etc, etc, I think people are often too quick to generalise (understandably, & I think everyone does this sometimes) & cut off noses to spite faces, and also get 'anti' about stuff, because they assume that their personal experience & concept is universal. Especially on forums, when we only have written words to go on...:wink:


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

Ive ridden horses that hate pats, scratches, and meaningless human chatting they want nothing to do with a human except get food and a job.

I've ridden horses that go school-girl giddy for a pat on the neck. My mom will walk into Reds stall and he will just stand with his head on her chest and absolutely go weak kneed while she pets him. Hes a very open horse and absolutely craves attention and affection. She is his human boss mare. he respects the mares but he clicks with my mom. is that a bond? to some yes. 

I've seen a horse do an impossible feat of body contortion to avoid landing on a girl when they fell of a cliff at the expense of his own health. The girl in question having never seen this horse before that morning.

to me, I love my horses, I kid around and call them my children I have history with them all and would be devastated to lose one. but they don't rank above my human friends and family.

Theyre livestock. Funny and unique but theyre not human. my papa could name every single cow and he could rough house with his bull like its an overgrown puppy. He could read a herd and single out a cow to gently lead to the corral. He could go in there and with the twitch of his hand and a quick step to the left have a cow walk into the chute away from the herd. But don't tell him he has a "bond" with them because he'd laugh at you.

I have a mutual respect for every single one of my horses. they have things they excel at and they have things they hate. they can make me laugh, cry, and cuss like a sailor in one breath. Is that a bond? To me? no. that is a result of knowing them, their personalities, their strengths and weaknesses and how to work with them to get the job done. respect, patience, and forgiveness. 

I’m not a romantic. They don’t love me. They love the food I give them and the fun things they get to do. that's my relationship with them. Not everybody would go out and watch how I interact, communicate and work with them and define it the same way.

They work better for me than others and will do more for me because i know them i know how to ask for something and get them to do it. They in turn put their trust into me to never put them in a dangerous situation and to lead them.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

ponyboy said:


> Well said, and there is a middle ground between fantasy bonding and man – machine relationships. I think calling a horse your "partner" is naïve, since most horses, like most people, would not "work" if they didn't think they had to. But they are not machines either. I think of horses as employees – yes they are supposed to do what you want, but they also have some "rights."


Do you really think most people would not work if they didn't have to, or could it be that the "one Powerball and I'm out of here" type thing could reflect that a lot of people are in jobs that are relatively meaningless to them, and/or involve unpleasant relationships with bosses or some co-workers, and/or burn them out? When people's work has meaning to them, they are socially happy in their workplace, and not overworked, they tend to really enjoy their work, from personal observation. Ever heard of "retirement blues" and how the risk of depression and premature death actually increases due to retirement (corrected for age), unless the retiree can find meaningful ways to occupy their time (and for many people this also means wanting to be useful to their community, rather than just undiluted hedonism)? 

Now to other animals. What's one of the best ways to produce an unhappy sheepdog? Sit it on a sofa all day long, cooing to it or not. Or lock it in a large suburban back garden with lots of toys and and think it should fend for itself for exercise. Unless sheepdogs have sufficient exercise, they tend to be antsy and frustrated. And exercise itself is not enough: They actually look for teamwork, and they enjoy "supervising" and "guarding". Mine also enjoys skijouring the bicycle, endlessly retrieving sticks from the farm dam, accompanying the horse, herding anything, etc etc. Now which of these is work, and which are her hobbies? (And is that a meaningful question?) But take even the dogs of a professional sheep grazier, who basically spend most of their time with people herding sheep and riding on the back of utes. They love what they do. Is it work? Most sheep farmers I know think so, and they wouldn't hesitate to describe their relationships with dogs as partnerships either.

Next, horses. In my own experience, many horses enjoy running, seeing a bit of scenery, herding cattle, learning new things, etc. My father trains harness horses. His horses queue at their paddock gates going, "Me next!" It's not in expectation of food, they get that either way: They genuinely enjoy exercising, and teamwork. One of his horses, now retired, used to literally give little neighs of excitement when he was collected for work, and skip like a little girl, and arch his neck, and cast sidelong glances at his handler, and play with the lead rope as he went. He'd look for the bridle, and the moment you lifted it up, he'd try to catch the snaffle in his mouth. He was the closest thing I ever saw to a self-bridling horse. Once tacked up, he'd go prancing off on his training rounds with this super happy expression on his face. He was like that at the races as well and became famous for his happy antics. He'd start neighing and "skipping" when he saw the horse float on race days, and load himself. People could hear him the moment the float pulled up in the car park, he had a neigh like the laugh in the film _Amadeus_...and the way he entered the grounds like a Spanish parade horse, and looked at everybody and everything was priceless. He was my father's highest stake earner and loved what he did, far more than he likes retirement.

What is work and what is not is an interesting question. The horse has needs that are often frustrated by the manner in which they are kept in domestication, and their work/leisure with people often addresses those unmet needs, to exercise a lot, to range around, to run with other horses, to do something that's meaningful to _them_. When horses don't like their work, then I think it's probably for remarkably similar reasons people may not like their work (stress, overwork, pain, clashes with people, unfriendly atmosphere, boredom, efforts not appreciated etc).

My riding horse lives as natural a life as I could provide him with. He free-ranges with his herd in interesting and varied terrain, and often rounds up cattle for fun. But he comes up to the house quite regularly with this, "Can we do something together?" demeanour I also see very frequently in my dog. He'll take himself to the tie rails and look at me. He enjoys his rides, even though he is free to take himself around 2km of bush trails with or without me.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> Not sure if that is what you want to call Disney or the Black Stallion, I personally don't think so. But it seems like there are black and white lines drawn with little middle ground on the subject.


Yeah, I find that disappointing - that there can be pages and pages of thread like this that show there is a _spectrum_ of what people who don't consider bonding a dirty word actually _mean_ by the word, but there is still this kneejerk response where some people continue to not get past a Disney definition, and to imposing that on the whole spectrum of definitions and people. It kind of reminds me, in an unpleasant way, of the whole human tendency to use exaggeration and misrepresentation when getting into emotive "us vs them" arguments. It's not a very pleasant attribute of our species. I was just reading a book by Douglas Adams, where he spent quite a bit of time with zoologists and then said he could see why every zoologist he'd ever met preferred other animals to their own species! :lol:


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

I could be wrong here, but I have read most of the posts, and all of them I have had a skim of, and I don't recall anyone saying that having a bond with their horse was bad, or that horses should be treated like a piece of machinery. 

What I have seen is people say that the "bond" that a lot of people talk about (the Disney unicorn rainbow fart thing) is not so desirable. And, even people who see their horses as livestock, not pets, have bonds with them. Just that the bond is of a different quality, they may not call it a bond, if the Disney rainbow fart thing is the definition of bond, but its still a bond. 

I have seen posts from some of the people who use their horses to earn a living working cattle, smrobs, cowchick etc, talking about it in the same way I see it, horses are there for work, but they are a hell of a lot more than a motorbike or something, they are a partner. If people think that those who see horses as livestock and there to do a job simply see them as little more than a piece of machinery then they are sorely mistaken, monumentally mistaken. 

The "bond" you get when you have to work for hours, over days, over months, through the years, with a horse doing something like cattle work goes much deeper than any of this Disney unicorn fart stuff. Doesn't change the fact that the horse is there for work (which sueC is right, the ones bread to it love it) and it doesn't change the fact that they are livestock, but anyone who has spent that kind of time, in that kind of thing with a horse will sure as hell bond with it, just that the bond is of a different type. In my opinion its a much more substantial and realistic bond at that.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

:clap: Amen, Anrew.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

AnrewPL said:


> I could be wrong here, but I have read most of the posts, and all of them I have had a skim of, and I don't recall anyone saying that having a bond with their horse was bad, or that horses should be treated like a piece of machinery.
> 
> What I have seen is people say that the "bond" that a lot of people talk about (the Disney unicorn rainbow fart thing) is not so desirable. And, even people who see their horses as livestock, not pets, have bonds with them. Just that the bond is of a different quality, they may not call it a bond, if the Disney rainbow fart thing is the definition of bond, but its still a bond.
> 
> ...


Well done Andrew. I just worked up a similar comment, but you said it much more concisely than I could. I've enjoyed this thread. A variety of opinions and viewpoints have been expressed, and no one really got snarky about it.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> You know, this whole bonding thread just rubs me wrong.
> 
> Because if you don't feel like horses have feelings and can "bond" (whatever that means to you) then why even have a horse? Why not just get an ATV?
> 
> ...


 Thank you Trailhorserider. I had been hoping the "pro-bonding" folks would chime in. You've wrapped the perspective up nicely. While I don't agree with your point of view, I now understand it much more clearly.

As for my own answers to the questions you've asked, see AnrewPL's post above. I can be more specific with my own experience if you like.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

SueC said:


> Do you really think most people would not work if they didn't have to, or could it be that the "one Powerball and I'm out of here" type thing could reflect that a lot of people are in jobs that are relatively meaningless to them, and/or involve unpleasant relationships with bosses or some co-workers, and/or burn them out?


Not all jobs can be "meaningful," or only put you in contact with nice people. It's just not realistic to expect work to be fun all the time. Besides, a job is not the only way to challenge yourself. 

Horses who make it to the top of their sport probably love their jobs, but the rest of them? Chances are they are like most of us and would quit if they could. 

(And, off topic... people who win the lottery _should_ quit their jobs because other people need those jobs).


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Horses who make it to the top of their sport probably love their jobs, but the rest of them? Chances are they are like most of us and would quit if they could.


Do you really think a horse has any appreciation of what humans think of as being "the top of their sport"? I probably have a higher opinion of equine intelligence than most, but I still doubt that 

Indeed, I wouldn't be suprised, knowing what a lot of people will do to 'win', to find that many top competition horses live pretty miserable lives. 

Now as for humans... Well, I could stop working any time, and live comfortably off my investment income, but I still work because I enjoy what I do. And I understand that Warren Buffett goes to work every day, too


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## Janskee (Nov 16, 2013)

Interesting thread. I've only had my horse for a year and a half, and I bought a horse because I enjoy the challenge of communicating with the horse to do the things I'd like to do with him. It is a test of not only my physical skills (which I can do on my bike instead) if that's all I want, but also of my ability to 'partner' with the horse., meaning to earn his respect so he'll listen to me as his leader and to learn to communicate effectively with him. 

I'm absolutely sure that my horse would rather be in his stall or in the turnout with his buddies than to be ridden, because he's rather lazy and horses don't go do an hour long 'work out' in nature. It just isn't what they do on their own, it is something humans ask of them. However, he also comes right up to me when I approach with the halter and works willingly for the most part. I'd like to believe that is because he has learned to respect me (and he knows he only gets treats after a ride). Do I think he 'loooooovvees' me? Of course not. However, to say that a horse doesn't 'care' at all about people I think is inaccurate, based on what I've seen of horse behavior. My horse doesn't treat all other horses exactly the same - he has some that he is 'friends' with and others he doesn't care much for. Same with people. He definitely is much more careful when I put beginners on his back doing leadline than when I'm on him. So, he 'cares' within his capacity as a horse, which is different from the human capacity for love and caring. 

I know a man who has owned his Arabian gelding for most of the horse's life, and they truly have a 'bond' or whatever you want to call it that is amazing. I suppose you could just call it training or respect, but that horse comes running when his owner whistles, and he does anything and everything the man asks him to. He can lead that horse around the place with no halter or lead rope, and the horse just follows him and does exactly what his owner asks. He also seems to love going for trail rides and spending time with his owner. I would love to have that kind of relationship with my horse. 

Yes, there are limits to the kind of relationship that humans and horses can have, and it is naïve to expect a horse to love us in the same way we love them, or to 'never hurt us' because of some 'bond'. They are, at the end of the day, simply an animal (and a large one, at that) However, that doesn't mean that we can't create partnerships together that go far beyond a person using a 'tool' or piece of machinery.


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## Gossip (Sep 26, 2011)

I personally believe horses are capable of loving and bonding with a human, and I believe my horse and I have a bond. I'm not saying a spoon or cuddle with my horses, or do anything dangerous like that, because that would be stupid, but those who say a bond can't exist clearly haven't really been in tune with their horse, when everything in the world just melts away and it's just the two of you. I'm not saying it's all unicorns and rainbows. There's good days and bad days.
Those who say horses are work animals, that is not a fact, that's an opinion. The horse world has evolved and we now look at horses in a different light. Their our friends and companions. If horses are work animals to you, then fine, but to me they are much more.


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## iRide Ponies (Aug 10, 2012)

.Delete. said:


> Or the people on instagram with their horse "hugging" them.


Hey now, hey now.  I do agree with the rest of what you said, but I don't see anything wrong with teaching your horse to give hugs. Its not dangerous and its a pretty cute trick.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I do hope that, in time, more and more people will discover how actually emotional, empathetic and intelligent horses are. It's a whole new world, people! Good luck in your journeys.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Saranda, I love your avatar.  Not sure if it is you but it looks like the person trusts the horse and the horse is relaxed and content about her being there.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

It's me and my boy in the avatar, Roman. He was taking a nap after a few hours of playing at the seaside.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

It's beautiful.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Thank you.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

iRide Ponies said:


> Hey now, hey now.  I do agree with the rest of what you said, but I don't see anything wrong with teaching your horse to give hugs. Its not dangerous and its a pretty cute trick.



except when they are wrapping their leg around you. that is risky.


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Popping in for a moment-scant time to view every post as I'll be heading out back to feed and enjoy the serene and quiet bond with my beautiful mares... I dare say there is not one, no, not one here that can _honestly_ and _truthfully_ report there is not a bond of any kind with their horse. These magnificent animals gifted to us.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

My version of hug is them wrapping their head around you, or half way. Not leg stuff...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I believe that there are varying degrees of relationships between horses and humans. Going back to the original post, it is the word "bond" that is the problem as it seems to imply this 'majikal pixie dust' type relationship.

Even though the majority of the horse owning population thinks of horses as pets or companions as opposed to livestock or work animals, like Andrew articulated very well, it doesn't mean that I don't enjoy and appreciate horses or think of them strictly as motorcycles. If that was the case I could easily find a job mashing cows on a dirt bike or four wheeler rather than using a horse as there are plenty of those types of jobs out there. I do what I do because I get to ride a horse everyday. I ride different horses and I have to change how I do things in order to get my job done as every horse is different. The challenge is getting to know a horse and train him in a way that best suits him to get a job done while making sure he enjoys it. Because if he doesn't enjoy it he makes for a miserable partner!


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Again: where is anyone saying that horses that are seen as work animals are somehow valued less or "bonded" with less or loved by their owners than horses of those who see them as Pets????????!!!!!

People who *don't* give their horses hugs and treats and groom them and hang around in the paddock bothering them to "bond with them" and rather have their horse as a work animal might see their horse differently to some pony club girl who thinks her horsey loves her but they will still "bond" with them.

As I said before, the kind of "bond" one develops with a horse having to have the horse work with seamless precision constantly to get a job done, usually to pay the bills and keep a roof over their head, will sure as hell have a bond with them. Especially when that "bond" is developed over years. And its a bond that all the "my horsey loves me" crowd can only imagine. Its a bond so tight that your subconscious controls the horse and you can feel instinctively what is going on through that horse from its feet up through your own body and it all transcends consciousness. So whenever I hear people chiding others for "simply seeing their horses as a wok animal" and then talking about how their horse is "so much more than just a work animal" but a friend, a partner, a pet. Well they miss the point. and they will probably never know what I regard as the *real* bond with a horse. So again, anyone sitting there thinking "work animal" somehow = machine, or less valued, or less loved, or less "bonded" with, then you couldn't be further from the truth.

Its a bond that goes deeper than most people can imagine. In my life I have probably had it only with maybe four horses. I get on pretty good with most horses, I tend to get along better with geldings, better than with mares, and I think my wariness around stallions makes me not get along with them as good as I might. I have started maybe in the vicinity of 80 to perhaps 120 horses, not that many really, but a fair few all the same. I haven't gotten along with all of them, but I get on pretty good with most. In the Disney unicorn fart rubbish, I probably "bonded" with the overwhelming majority of those horses. Yet, all but four of those horses were started for other people, or as part of my work working as a ringer (cowboy/buckaroo for the North Americans). The four, they were my own horses, they were the ones I owned myself, started for myself and rode through to refinement. They were the ones I really got going; the rest I started and were sent off to whoever owned them to ride after they were started. Of my four, I got all four started over a space of about 3 years and rode them to refinement in the years after that, I spent more hours than I can remember on those horses working cattle, they were my working cow horses, I did thousands of kilometers on them with cattle. I saw them as work horses, that is why I owned them, and that's what they were ridden for. I had a hell of a lot of fun doing it, so work wasn't a drag, but it was work. Did I "bond" with those horses? You bet your **** I did. I could feel their feet hitting the ground like they were my own feet, I felt like from my hips down was imbedded in their backs, I was the only person who ever so much as sat on their backs, and I would have beaten to within an inch of their life anyone who dared to ride them. They were work animals, but if anyone thinks that work animal meant somehow less valued, loved, cared for or "bonded" with, then you don not know what the hell you are talking about.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^ :clap: Anrew.

That is exactly the problem with this whole debate. Others assume that those of us with horses who are primarily work animals view them as no different than 4 wheelers or dirtbikes because we don't run around screaming "OMG, MY HORSEYYYY LUVVS ME SOOOOO MUCH".

I have not seen anyone say that there cannot be _any_ bond between horses and people, only that the Disney version of the city teenager who has never seen a horse before breaking the wild mustang with nothing but love and sugar cubes is utter crap.

Like Anrew said, someone who does a daily job with their horse gets to the point that their horse is like an extension of their own body. You know them and they know you and there is a level of mutual trust and respect and conversation that most recreational riders could never possibly imagine. 

Just because I don't buy into the sparkly unicorn farts doesn't mean that I don't love my horses. Just because they don't get sugar cubes daily doesn't mean that they don't trust me to get them out of any jam they're in or aren't eager to give every ounce of try they've got whenever I ask them to step up. 

I do believe in a bond between horses and humans, but my version of a bond is when I know I can trust them to do what needs to be done...and they trust me to be a worthy leader and be willing to give their all when I ask.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

smrobs said:


> I do believe in a bond between horses and humans, but my version of a bond is when I know I can trust them to do what needs to be done...and they trust me to be a worthy leader and be willing to give their all when I ask.


This!! EXACTLY! :clap:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Again I don't buy into the Disney version of "bonding" but I think my mare and I have a good bond in that I do love on her and treat her but when we are out on the trail she gets me out of sticky situations and I get her out them. 
For example last winter my sister and I went on a ride and the hill happened to be pretty slick and I didn't realize how slick until Colly started falling. Now I've been on quite a few horses that have fallen but I have never been on one that did it so slowly that I was able to dismount off of, Colly did that and then she waited till I was clear of her legs before she got back up again very calmly and quietly. If my sisters horse had done that it would have been BAD. Colly took care of me and made sure I didn't get hurt when I very well could have.
Also just two days ago I took her out on another ride and she went over a down tree but got her back leg caught between two branches. I dismounted and she stood quietly while I got her untangled from the branches which if she didn't trust that I would take care of her and make sure she wasn't hurt, she could have had a freak-out and hurt herself and me.
That is my version of bonding with my horse I trust in her and she trusts in me. Even though I love on her and treat her I respect the fact that in a split second she could potentially kill or seriously injure me without meaning too.


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## iRide Ponies (Aug 10, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> except when they are wrapping their leg around you. that is risky.


Oh, on that I most wholeheartedly agree. But when the horse flexes laterally around a person standing at their shoulder, 'hugging' the human with the horses head and neck, that is fine and safe.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Janskee said:


> Yes, there are limits to the kind of relationship that humans and horses can have, and it is naïve to expect a horse to love us in the same way we love them, or to 'never hurt us' because of some 'bond'.


Call me a cynic if you wish, but I think it's naive to expect that sort of relationship with another human. If you're really lucky in life, you may find one, but the news is full of stories about people who thought they had, but were mistaken.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Bonding = attachment or the formation of a close relationship
It has nothing to do with any Disney or magical.
It doesn't mean you see a horse (or dog or cat) as a human in animals skin
It doesn't even have to involve hugging or cuddling
The majority of horses and ponies aren't owned as work animals and haven't been for many years now though I grew up among people that had worked with horses including two who fought in WW1 and they would never have been ashamed to say that they had a relationship with their horses that went beyond attending to the essential needs
From my own point of view if I didn't enjoy having a relationship with my horses I wouldn't even bother to own one - I'd just take lessons at a local barn or hire a horse for trail rides


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## tjtalon (Apr 26, 2013)

I've been reading this conversation almost daily, w/interest. Just one comment: It seems like all here "get it", no matter your discipline, work or pleasure. You wonderful folks are "preaching to the choir". The airy-fairy stardust spangled "my horsie luvvs me sooooooooo much!! see how Bambi puts her hoof on my head! we are soooooooooooooo bonded!!!!!!!!! lol omg" crowd ( minority, I hope) aren't reading these pages. They SHOULD.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> Indeed, I wouldn't be suprised, knowing what a lot of people will do to 'win', to find that many top competition horses live pretty miserable lives.


Have you ever tried to get really good at something you absolutely hate doing? It's very difficult. Human athletes need drive to succeed and horses are no different. They don't understand "winning" or "losing" but they do understand clearing a fence, running faster than another horse, herding a cow etc. Look on Youtube and you'll find videos of horses doing all those things without riders. Some (not all) of them clearly get something out of it.


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## MyHorseTeddy (Nov 2, 2013)

I do believe i have a "bond" with my horse. He was a rescue and came from a really horrible situation, and i love him more than life itself. I don't make my horse give me hugs or anything like that, he knows his job, and hes a good boy, but when he follows me around, and comes over to me when he sees me no matter where he is or what he is doing, but will walk away from anyone else, even the people who feed him, it makes me believe there really is something there besides a "work relationship" Yes my horse and i have a bond, and its not from some fairy tail, if i didn't have a connection with my horse I wouldn't have him.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> Have you ever tried to get really good at something you absolutely hate doing? It's very difficult. Human athletes need drive to succeed and horses are no different. They don't understand "winning" or "losing" but they do understand clearing a fence, running faster than another horse, herding a cow etc. Look on Youtube and you'll find videos of horses doing all those things without riders. Some (not all) of them clearly get something out of it.


Personally, as far as their attitude, I don't compare horses doing things on their own, of their own free will(eg not to escape or feel compelled), to being *trained* to do it with a rider(although then again, show me a horse that _will_ do showjumping, dressage, ridiculous 'obstacles' such as at Badminton... etc. Suspect I won't find much on youtube on 'performance' type naturual behaviour). I'm not in the least saying horses can't enjoy their 'work', or that that doesn't effect their performance, but I think the 'run faster, jump higher' etc is a LOT more to do with training & how trainable & accepting horses are. And of course physical ability. And then, that's only considering the actual 'work' side of a performance horse's life... the rest of the lifestyle of many(_not_ saying all/most) performance animals can be pretty poor.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Personally the word bonding does not make me think of majikal pixie dust, and to be honest I hadn't really thought about the word that deeply until this thread (and I still am not bothered by it), but if the problem is the word, then what should it be replaced by? 

By definition bond fits, but there may be other words that work just as well.

There is nothing wrong with not bonding, or wanting a bond with your horse. If I rode many different horses, or had horses as a business, I certainly wouldn't expect to bond, or even want to bond with them. I know people who keep horses for their own pleasure, but get bored easily and are always trading around, nothing wrong with that. For me, at this point in my life I'm ready to settle down with 'the one', I do remember how thrilling it was as a kid to ride many different horses, and dreamed of one day owning one of every breed and color (although even then I liked having that one special horse that was all mine), and making horses my career. But I grew up. In my life I've had exactly 4 horses that I had something special with, and yes I believe it went both ways. One of those was the mother to my 2 year old gelding, and I'm hoping (and so far so good, although I'm not riding him yet) he is 'the one'! Time will tell if he takes after his mother. 

Having a bond does not mean they would never hurt you (because of love or any other reason), it does mean they will respect you and try to please you. I've had plenty of horses I felt I could trust, but I also still trusted them to be horses, they will misbehave at times, spook at random inanimate objects,and yes, if something scared them badly enough they may take off for home, leaving me behind to fend for myself (and I know that one, and I suspect all 4 I mentioned would ignore something scary as long as I didn't seem to be afraid of it, and for the one that is in the saddle or out, for the others that may only apply if I'm on foot (and I'm talking about something scary that's moving, not something stationary, I know they'd be ok with that)). However, I don't think that is proof of anything other then they are horses, I know people that in panic situations will totally lose their brains and forget anyone and everyone in their attempt to save themselves. 

Oh, and had to comment on the farmers and cows. I actually do know farmers that have had 'special' cows, they had special relationships with, don't know if they would describe it as a bond or not, but it is what it is. I myself had a cow that I shared a bond with! I really miss that cow.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

loosie said:


> ...the rest of the lifestyle of many(_not_ saying all/most) performance animals can be pretty poor.


Yes, that's what I meant. The performance horse may enjoy doing its thing because that's the only time it gets to be out of its stall or 20x20 turnout pen.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> Yes, that's what I meant. The performance horse may enjoy doing its thing because that's the only time it gets to be out of its stall or 20x20 turnout pen.


You don't know that. I know several high dollar performance horses that get regular turnout and live happy lives. Like ponyboy said, it's a lot harder to achieve great things with a horse that hates it's job.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

Dogs are very unique as they are the only animal who given a choice will choose to share their time with humans rather than their own kind. 

I do think horses will be more willing to partner with humans who exhibit certain behavior and adhere to a certain punishment/reward structure. However, I have no illusion that my horse will have the same level of relationship with me as my dogs have. it's a herd versus pack mentality and fundamentally different.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

.Delete. said:


> You don't know that. I know several high dollar performance horses that get regular turnout and live happy lives. Like ponyboy said, it's a lot harder to achieve great things with a horse that hates it's job.


I agree. I believe there are many horses that get regular turnout and the best care. If a horse hates what you want it to do, I bet they'll fight you so they can't. Like if a horse hates his saddle, hang on...


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## llizzylou42 (Aug 8, 2014)

To me 'bond' means my horses come up to me and will trust me and do what I ask of them. I don't go around laying between my horses legs, I'm not _that_ dumb. 
I do however believe you can bond with a horse because they can recognize people and feel that they are loved by a specific person. I know horses who work harder, and act better when there are certain people around. To me, _that_ is bonding.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

STT GUY said:


> Dogs are very unique as they are the only animal who given a choice will choose to share their time with humans rather than their own kind.
> 
> I do think horses will be more willing to partner with humans who exhibit certain behavior and adhere to a certain punishment/reward structure. However, I have no illusion that my horse will have the same level of relationship with me as my dogs have. it's a herd versus pack mentality and fundamentally different.


If you keep dogs in a pack situation and not as household pets then they will often prefer to spend their time with their doggie friends than with their humans. Our one remaining barn dog has become far more attached to us since his life long doggy companion died, prior to that he would always prefer to be with her than with us


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

I had another thought re; "bonding". Not sure why this discussion is fascinating me. Perhaps because it's unfamiliar territory for me. Until I joined this forum, I had not heard of it outside of industrial adhesives and modern (newish) maternity practices. I hope I don't muddy the waters too much. 

All of us seem to agree that a bond exists or can be attained. We do seem to be of two different factions, although there is some overlap. There are the working horsemen and their livestock and the recreational riders and their pet horses. Both are valid relationships. 

So here are my observations. For the working horsemen, a bond is not a goal in and of itself. It is more or less a natural result of training toward a performance goal. That bond deepens as horse and ricer become keenly attuned to one another in the performance of their work. For the recreational riders (as I understand things), the bond is a specific goal. Some have stated that it is the primary reason they are involved with horses. Some seem to infer that the bond is a milestone that must be reached before they can progress with a horse.

For myself, I don't see that it is much of an issue unless it becomes a stumbling block, or a danger (as the OP mentioned).


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> You don't know that. I know several high dollar performance horses that get regular turnout and live happy lives.


But I DO know that. Nowhere did I say that ALL performance horses live such constricted lives, but I do see some, like those of my neighbor who competes/shows*, who live exactly as I describe. She's far from the only one I've seen who keeps their horses in small turnouts like that more or less permanently.


*At a high level, she says: others who claim to know her say there's a certain degree of wishful thinking there. I'm withholding judgement.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> *At a high level, she says: others who claim to know her say there's a certain degree of wishful thinking there. I'm withholding judgement.


Are you referring to me here?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

STT GUY said:


> Dogs are very unique as they are the only animal who given a choice will choose to share their time with humans rather than their own kind.


Dogs are unique that way!? I think not. I have a semi-feral cat that was wild as could be when I first met him (he was living in my hay barn). He would literally panic and try to escape, trying to climb the fence and such (the barn was fenced on 3 sides to keep the elk out).

Now, many years later, he follows me around like a dog and just craves my attention. You may say that's because I feed him (and we all feed our dogs too, right?) but it goes so much beyond that. I can give him treats when I am busy doing something so that he will leave me alone and much of the time that doesn't work, he is still following me around craving attention! The only thing that really satisfies him is if I give him a long, good brushing and some massaging around the ears. This cat LOVES that and isn't happy until he gets it. 

Cats are such undervalued creatures. I much prefer them to dogs and they are every bit as affectionate. People just don't seem to realize it.

Here is an animal that is free to leave, doesn't have to depend on me for food (he could go anywhere he wants and frequently kills birds and mice) and yet he just craves attention. So don't say dogs are special in this regard. :wink:


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## Maryland Rider (Jul 2, 2013)

A little barnyard bonding here.







They say pigs are smarter than dogs.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

.Delete. said:


> You don't know that. I know several high dollar performance horses that get regular turnout and live happy lives. .


Did anyone say *all *performance horses somewhere? Definitely wouldn't agree with that either. There are many I know that give their horses more natural lives too. I know many more than several, that are stalled full time, or live alone in small square paddocks or yards(can't have them living with eachother, they might get scratched).


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> I had not heard of it outside of industrial adhesives and modern (newish) maternity practices.


:rofl:


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## Sabrine12 (Jun 2, 2014)

i have no problem with bonding but i do undertsand what you mean, though i would not go to the point of ever thinking bonding is "stupid" and you shouldnt hug your horse or pet or whatever because blah blah and blah. okay bond with your horse spend time with it but dont become to lovey dovey that if your horse does something your too afraid to whack or smack because of ruining a bond. 

hmm all have interesting theories.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A bit off topic
But Carl Hester's current dressage horse Nip Tuck lives out 24/7 with another horse


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

.Delete. said:


> Are you referring to me here?


Disregard my comment James. I utterly misunderstood your comment, obviously lol. My apologies


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## Rosebit78 (Mar 26, 2014)

I would like to say that
a) you can defiantly bond with a horse. They are herd animals so it comes natural to them, it's not far fetched at all. 
B) you are right that people should never say their horse wouldn't hurt them, that's ignorant. 

To give an example. My mare Beauty who recently passed away after having her from when I was 3 years old until I was 2 was very much an alpha mare. If she didn't want to be caught I had to chase her, if she didn't want the other horses caught she would chase them. She also never learned the word woah. But she would also never let me get knocked off when I was still small, and I could turn loose my 6 year old brother on her and she would follow me like a dog so he couldn't get hurt. I loved this mare with all my heart, she was my dream horse when I was a little girl and my confidant when I was an adult. I treated her like a HORSE (I'd smack her when she acted up and I'd praise her when she was good) she treated me like a HUMAN (she was a horse first but did anything I asked when I had her caught) she may run away for an hour but if I could get even a piece of hay string around her neck you could lead her anywhere. She was capable of being horse who has bit me and kicked me in her lifetime. But I know we also had a strong "bond" relationship. One time in particular I would like to share. 
We were at our county fair like we did every year. The arena has a small alleyway, so the gate was always open for the horses to run out of the arena. Well when we made our run and we're coming back someone decided to shut the gate on us, right in front of me! I pulled the reigns and Beauty did her best to stop but we hit the gate. We hit It so hard that it threw me off and knocked her backward. Now, say whatever you will about this but it was one of those slow motion moments. I looked up at my horse about to fall right on my chest and as I was looking she met my eyes when she turned her head to the side and I watched her jerk herself sideways to avoid me. I came out of that with not one scratch. Thanks to that wonderful mare. 
Not saying she became all magical after that, she was still her stubborn awesome self. But I do belive with some help from God of course, that she quite possibly saved my life that night. 
Please don't call this up to a little girl and dreams of unicorns. Everything she did, riding and handling, was because of training, but that right there is something you can't teach.


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