# Bits - A Discussion



## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

I'd like to start off by saying I'm not here to offend anyone or point fingers - this is just what _I've_ learned over the years and what I've been taught, and also what I've come to as a conclusion from studying these things. I've formed my own views on this, and they seem to hold up to science - but people have other views and I'd like to hear them as a means to discovering _why_ this is so controversial as it is as in my opinion the scientific facts at least, seem very clear and decisive. I'm not looking to start an argument - I want to show you my side and hear yours to better understand the perceptions around this area. 

So now once we've gotten past that - gag bits. I've always been told since I was young that they're terrible contraptions, that when the reins are pulled the mouthpiece slides up and hits the molars(depending on the amount of gag and length of shank, though there are many that are very long these days), and at the same times applies poll pressure. The horse, however, being more sensitive in the mouth than the poll usually, ends up riding with his head up in the air and his back hollow do to riding behind the vertical(or even in front of the vertical but with the neck at maximum elevation so this is negated), which as shown in many areas - riding with a hollow back is detrimental and can even be the cause of such things as kissing spine. That's what _I've_ been taught, and seeing the bits in action as well as studying the mechanics of the bit seems to prove that point. I also suppose I should define what is considered a gag - any leverage bit in which the mouthpiece can slide up and down the shank, allowing it to move up and apply pressure to the lips and poll in one motion. That includes the "American Gag", Dutch gag, sliding gag, running gag, etc. Anything that can slide, even if it's only a millimeter has gag action. (Hence why the Myler loose-ring snaffles with hooks are considered gags when the hooks are in use.)

So. That is what I've come to, and yet I've never heard the counterarguement for a gag bit. Some argue that it is a source of collection, but that cannot be true because collection comes from the seat and is not the result of any one bit. (It's also sorely lacking in any discipline these days, so I doubt that a bit would change that anyhow.) Others say it causes good self carriage, but if the head-high/back hollow is good self carriage then I've given up trying to understand the bio-mechanics involved in riding, because up unto this point they've all been wrong. So, my fellow equestrians - whether you use a gag bit or not, I'm not looking to make arguments or pointing fingers, as I said above. I just would like to understand _what_ the point of using these bits is - as I'm rather confused. From a classical standpoint, they are something I would never use. There's many bits such as that, and I'd like to know what exactly a gag is supposed to do that's beneficial. And like I said, it's not that I wish to belittle anyone for using it or shout that my way is the only way - but I'm frankly just confused as to why a bit such as that would be considered a useful training tool when I've been taught it's the exact opposite. I cannot learn if I cannot listen to both sides, after all.


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## Aprilswissmiss (May 12, 2019)

Regardless of the type of bit, I think any "tool" that causes obvious pain or severe discomfort when used either isn't a fair tool or isn't being used properly. A horse that raises its head to avoid the bit is doing that out of pain or discomfort. If you need an advanced bit to _control_ your horse because you can't with anything less severe, you should probably go back to the training basics and work your way back up. Harsher bits, if used at all, should be used as a tool for refined communication for advanced maneuvers, not to control a horse that won't listen or collect on a snaffle. And at that point, I don't see gag bits as refined communication, because the only thing it does is put the bit further up the horse's mouth - which isn't refined communication, it's forceful control. Just my opinion.

See Warwick Schiller's videos where he rides any green horse/horse that needs to go back to the basics with just a rope halter, and teaches them to reliably steer, walk, trot, and canter on a loose rein before he even considers doing anything more advanced with more advanced tools.

Commence the debate...


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

And I completely agree. I'm by no means against bits or a "snaffle-only" person, but if I'm going to put something in my horse's mouth you can bet I'll know what the mechanics of it are first. Any finished horse should not have to be ridden in a sharp bit in my opinion, no matter the discipline - yes, some are faster than others but if your horse isn't trained enough to pace itself or accept aides when moving at a faster pace then I don't consider him finished. Finished is more than being able to complete the task - it's completing it with skill and finesse.


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## Feathers7 (Jun 11, 2019)

Aprilswissmiss said:


> Regardless of the type of bit, I think any "tool" that causes obvious pain or severe discomfort when used either isn't a fair tool or isn't being used properly.


Agreed! It's up to us to interpret why a horse is behaving the way it is. When a "pain" behavior is caused by tack, it's not complicated and it's usually a pretty obvious reaction. If the head goes up, does that happen when a different bit is used? Without a gag bit? If no, there's your answer. If yes, then you're still on a detective mission. I've never known any horse to not respond to tack used within 1-2 rides. If tack is okay, and the horse has no other source of pain, everything is just o-kay.



> Harsher bits, if used at all, should be used as a tool for refined communication for advanced maneuvers, not to control a horse that won't listen or collect on a snaffle.


Also agree.

[/quote]See Warwick Schiller's videos where he rides any green horse/horse that needs to go back to the basics with just a rope halter, and teaches them to reliably steer, walk, trot, and canter on a loose rein before he even considers doing anything more advanced with more advanced tools.[/QUOTE]

These:
https://youtu.be/eYIU72KaLUw 
https://youtu.be/e-Lc440xQkc


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Some horses do well in a gag. There is no requirement to use a gag harshly. I only used one for a couple of rides. My horse didn't care for it so I stopped using it - but it didn't cause her to raise her head, hollow her back, etc.

*Those symptoms come, not from the bit, but from a rider ho doesn't give a release.* It happens with any bit that is poorly used.

On a journal thread, an experienced rider I respect has picked a gag for a horse who gets excited on runs, who can be a challenge to control when excited, but who dislikes curb bits. I reject the idea that all horses must learn on "mild bits only" because an excited horse may not have enough control of his emotions to obey a mild bit, and won't LEARN that control unless ridden, in the open, while excited, with a bit the horse WILL respect. Once the horse LEARNS the RIDER has ideas worth listening to, and how to control his (her) emotions, the horse can start listening in a milder bit.

Mia was a good example. In the arena, you could ride her with your pinkie on a snaffle. She didn't get super-excited when in an arena. Out in the open? That was a different question, and she knew how to resist a snaffle. So I switched her to a curb bit. 3 rides in the arena to teach her what a curb bit felt like and how to get her own release with it. Then I took her out on the trail. That first ride out she panicked about a motorcycle. She tried to bolt, the curb bit was enough to restrain (curb) her...and moments later, she realized the motorcycle was now running AWAY from her!

I could almost see the light come on above her head. "_You mean, I can stand still and the bad thing will go away?_" I couldn't guess how many bolts she had done, but there was only one more time she thought of bolting. That was when she scrapped against a cholla cactus with her hind leg. She leaped forward. I got her to stop in 3-4 strides....then dismounted and pulled all the spines out of her leg. That was the last time she tried to bolt. She'd still spin violently when startled, but she never tried to run away with me again.

She wasn't going to learn to stand her ground in a snaffle. She knew HOW to fight it and, by fighting it, it made things even more scary in her memory. A curb bit taught her a valuable lesson. She always liked curb bits more than snaffles, although I rode her in both. Eventually traded her for Bandit, and Mia became a brood mare who is now mostly ridden in a bosal.

Point being that excitement and/or fear - the horse has a hard time distinguishing between the two - can get a horse amped up. Think of it as background noise. It is easy to listen to someone when standing next to a mountain lake. Much harder in a noisy bar. Excitement is like a noisy bar to the horse's mind. You may need to shout to be heard - but once the horse learns to listen when excited, you won't need to shout any longer.

Mia in the arena:








Mia a couple of years ago on the Navajo Nation with a couple of her babies:








Harsher bits are not harsher if the horse resists a "milder" bit. Gags are basically a snaffle bit - except the linear pull of the snaffle is amplified mechanically. A curb bit rotates, applying pressure against the bars and tongue regardless of head position, and can be useful with a horse who has learned to resist the snaffle. But a curb bit can be a gentler bit, MILDER, than a snaffle once the horse has the self-control to listen. Curbs and gags are not just for finished horses. They can be good tools to get a horse past a problem.

PS: A horse can have an elevated head and a relaxed back. A lot depends on the horse's build and personality. Bandit ALWAYS has a raised head:

















Trooper rarely elevates his head. Difference in build and personality:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@The Equinest I 100% agree with your post. Well written!! That is the information I always understood to be true also. I personally do not and would not use a gag type bit. Or any severe bits, and I have seen some that are brutal. 

As for the other side of the question, "Why would one use a gag bit?", I have gently asked this of folks when I have seen them used. 

These are some of the things that have been shared with me:

1) Barrel racing/speed events. To be able to stop the horse. The horse becomes unmanageable in the ring, and the gag is the only way to stop the horse. 

My opinion (and I ran barrels as a teen) the horse is not suited for the sport, or not trained for the sport, or a combination of both. These folks appear to believe that a horse must be "fired up" to run. IME, the opposite is true, a fast run requires a thinking, highly trained horse not a mindless one. 

2) Inexperienced riders/uneducated riders. These folks have shared little in the way of logical explanations, as most have no idea of the mechanics of any bit. They have said anything from "the horse came with this bit" to "the horse ran off with me and *X* told me to get this bit" 

My opinion; those folks should have started out with riding lessons, and education on the mechanics of bits. I have even seen gags used in combination with tie-downs. :evil: These folks also seem to have trouble catching their mounts...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Things like bracing, hollow backs, inverted neck position, sucking behind the bit can occur in any bit (or bitless set up that involves pressure on the nose).
The problem isn't with the gag bit, the bit or the nose pressure - the problem lies in poor training and the process used to get the horse acceptable to pressure.

If someone is using so much force (in a gag bit) that the bit is affecting the teeth then it isn't the bit that's the problem.

When the bit is correctly positioned in the mouth then pressure can't take the bit upwards against the teeth because the corners of the mouth are going to prevent that happening. If it does happen then the corners of the mouth will also be damaged - and again - the problem isn't with the bit, the problem is down to poor riding and poor training.

The only thing a correctly used gag should do is apply a 'squeezing pressure' between the poll and the corners of the mouth and its that that makes them a useful bit for horses that dislike too much pressure on the bars.

I would rather see a gag bit with a mild mouthpiece on a horse that gets a bit too forward, than someone sawing at their horse's mouth with a snaffle with twisted mouthpiece


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

AnitaAnne said:


> @The Equinest I 100% agree with your post. Well written!! That is the information I always understood to be true also. I personally do not and would not use a gag type bit. Or any severe bits, and I have seen some that are brutal.
> 
> As for the other side of the question, "Why would one use a gag bit?", I have gently asked this of folks when I have seen them used.
> 
> ...




I personally have used one of the Myler Combination bits, that has only 1/4" of gag. This bit works well for my well-trained horse, but also has worked well on younger horses that weren't quite grasping the full picture of a bit that mainly utilizes mouth pressure, i.e. a snaffle. The Myler Combination bits use nose, chin, poll, bar, and tongue pressure to communicate, and generally make it very clear on what exactly is being asked. I often recommend this bit, as it has worked wonders on a variety of horses for me!

Beyond bits with a small amount of gag, I really don't see the purpose. If a gag bit has a ring that is capable of moving a bit up 2" in the horses mouth, and the bit is already positioned properly, what is the point?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I am a trail rider and really don't have use for a gag bit but I did try one once or twice........you know the "wonder bit?" I tried it on a middle aged trail horse that I normally rode in a curb. So it's not like he needed it, I just wanted to see how it worked.











I personally hated the "spongy" feel. I guess he did fine in it, I don't remember the horse having an objection, but I remember that "I" hated how it felt. I still have one in a box somewhere, because I sort of hoard bits, but I doubt I will ever have a horse that needs it or goes good in it. But if I did, I don't think it's an overly harsh bit. 

Now some of the bits the barrel racers use really scare the crud out of me and I personally wouldn't even try them. BUT, I am not a barrel racer, so whom am I to say they aren't good in the right hands. But with what I do with my horses, I surely don't need anything that intimidating! This is an example of a bit I personally would never even try:











I "guess" you could say it would be mild in the gentlest of hands, but it would be hard to have gentle hands running barrels, at least for me. 

I did try a Myler combo on my youngster once and really didn't find he did any better in it than a normal Myler curb bit. And it was more of a pain to take on and off, so I ended up selling it to recoup my investment.........because it was about $100 used. I have several other Myler curbs though and really love them! The short HBT shank is my favorite, I think it makes a fabulous trail bit.








Not a gag bit of course, but since Mylers were mentioned, I thought I would show my favorite Myler. :Angel:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

ClearDonkey said:


> I personally have used one of the Myler Combination bits, that has only 1/4" of gag. This bit works well for my well-trained horse, but also has worked well on younger horses that weren't quite grasping the full picture of a bit that mainly utilizes mouth pressure, i.e. a snaffle. The Myler Combination bits use nose, chin, poll, bar, and tongue pressure to communicate, and generally make it very clear on what exactly is being asked. I often recommend this bit, as it has worked wonders on a variety of horses for me!
> 
> Beyond bits with a small amount of gag, I really don't see the purpose. If a gag bit has a ring that is capable of moving a bit up 2" in the horses mouth, and the bit is already positioned properly, what is the point?



The Myler combo bit also isn't as much of a gag as it looks like at first glance because it has the built-in stops that keep the mouthpiece from rotating all the way. I think it's a good design. I just didn't keep it because there didn't seem to be an advantage for the horse I was using it on. But I would have no problem using a bit like this if my horse did well in it.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Gag bits are not used to stop a barrel horse, but instead to help keep the shoulders up coming into a barrel at speed on a horse that wants to cut in and turn early. In spite of their draconian appearance, most horses go very well in them. 

I think a lot of English-only riders are of the opinion that anything with a gag or curb action is a harsh bit, and that isn't the case in the western world. Bitting the western performance horse is a science. There are so many factors that go into a bit, and two bits that look very similar can act very differently on the horse, which is why you'll see the reiners, cutters, ropers, barrel racers, and ranch riders with entire tack rooms full of bits. It's important to remember that a western horse, properly bitted, is carrying the bit on his own and is comfortable. What you think is comfortable may not be the case for the horse. I've found very few of my horses actually liked a snaffle. Most went far better, were more relaxed, and were much happier in a curb bit. Even the tortuous-looking spade bit is quite comfortable for the horse to wear in spite of its appearance. The big spoon sits flat against the hard palate, so it's not digging in like some lesser curbs. The curb is adjusted to prevent the bit from rotating too far. The mouthpiece lies comfortably on the tongue and encourages the horse to relax his jaw. It spreads out weight, and balances beautifully. It gives a TON of 'signal' so the horse knows when a cue is given and can respond to the softest touch. A well-trained horse with a well-fitted half-breed or spade bit is a happy horse, in spite of the fact that many people would consider it cruel. It's not. My old gelding would happily open his mouth for his half-breed bit when he saw me coming. He would gripe and complain and toss his head in consternation with a 'gentle' snaffle or low-port curb. Could you ride him in anything? Yes. What did he prefer? The bits most people would wrongly assume to be painful and cruel.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

@TheEquinest would you mind posting links to the science you are comparing your findings to?

Just like any bit. A gag isn't for everyone or every horse or every occasion. I rode in gags when I barrel raced. Mainly jr. cow horse (not sure why they call them cow horse bits as they aren't legal in reined cow horse or cutting) and wonder gags. I also have a banana gag that was made by a well known cutting horse trainer well before the barrel racers starting using them. 

The banana gag pictured below looks pretty scary but it's not. I have used it on green colts without a curb strap. It uses lip and poll pressure before pressure on the bars. Green horses seem to like it because it doesn't scare them if they are worried about their mouth. Even without the curb strap and that much gag I have never hit the molars. It has been good for horses who have been pulled on too much in the snaffle especially and have gotten fussy in the face.

As explained to me using gags barrel racing and why I used them, (I don't like the crazy combo bits) using a gag can keep you and your horse out of a speed jam. Someone like me who can be a bit quick with my hands, the gag delays my hand and allows the horse to work so I don't jam him up. I don't use the gag to stop or control the horse.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

I ride a horse in a gag bit - a wonder bit very similar to one posted earlier in the thread. Duroc is a hot, sensitive, competitive horse with claustrophobia issues. After experiencing a training program that expected him to conform to a box he didn't fit into, he became a rearer and was sent back to his owners as a rogue. Trying to find headgear that didn't make him feel trapped yet also gave me brakes when I needed them was a challenge. Duroc can't stand the feeling of a curb strap and had learned to toss his head up and run right through a smooth snaffle when excited. He was fine to ride in a snaffle (or even in a halter) in a ring, but as an endurance horse we needed to find something that worked outside of the ring, too.

When all is going well, Duroc goes around nicely on a loose rein:









The slide action of the bit gives Duroc a lot of pre-signal before the bit engages - 95% of the time, that is all he needs. Using slobber straps and heavy reins to get the same effect is just not practical for 100 miles.










But when something gets his blood up, having a bit with some poll pressure as well as bar pressure is the difference between a discussion and a runaway. This picture was taken a few strides after a group of horses galloped past us. Note that even with full contact, he isn't gaping his mouth or trying to evade the bit.










Like so many things with horses, how you use something can make all the difference.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

phantomhorse13 said:


> I ride a horse in a gag bit - a wonder bit very similar to one posted earlier in the thread. Duroc is a hot, sensitive, competitive horse with claustrophobia issues. After experiencing a training program that expected him to conform to a box he didn't fit into, he became a rearer and was sent back to his owners as a rogue. Trying to find headgear that didn't make him feel trapped yet also gave me brakes when I needed them was a challenge. Duroc can't stand the feeling of a curb strap and had learned to toss his head up and run right through a smooth snaffle when excited. He was fine to ride in a snaffle (or even in a halter) in a ring, but as an endurance horse we needed to find something that worked outside of the ring, too.
> 
> When all is going well, Duroc goes around nicely on a loose rein:
> 
> ...


I so, so, so wish that my seasoned horse could go in a gag bit - your description is exactly what I've been searching for in a bit. In many bits when pressure is applied, he often worries about and blows through the bit, getting stronger the more worried he gets. He has gone pretty well in latex wrapped dogbones and waterfords, but could even use a bit more. I tried a gag bit that I have yet to find on the internet anywhere, and even just closing my hands onto the reins sent him up into the air.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

I'm by far not an English rider - I'm a western rider who's grown up in the western rodeo/cow world, actually. I just study classical principles and I'm highly fascinated by the bio-mechanics involved with both bitting and riding. 

Moving on to the barrel racing topic - see, the problem I have with gags in this area is that they actually don't lift the shoulders. You cannot lift the shoulders through the mouth - the only way to lift the shoulders is to shift weight onto the hindquarters and then that will allow for the shoulders to free up and be lifted upwards when a horse is properly reaching under himself and lifting the base of his neck. In my opinion and experience from studying this topic, the gag will pull the head up, making it _feel_ as if the shoulders are lifting when in actuality the curve of the spine is being dropped and hollowed. The base of the neck is not lifting, and neither are the shoulders. Most riders tend to "ride the face" that I've seen with gags as well, meaning that they are achieving even less than a rider who understands some of the aspects of seat is. I've studied the topic quite a bit and I've never come across a barrel horse that I'd consider actually lifting the shoulder and not just lifting his whole body up in a half-rear motion almost. That is not lifting the shoulders, however. If I pull back on a gag, the head raises and the vertebrae of the neck can easily be over flexed and misaligned. It lifts the head, shortening the stride and therefore slowing the horse, which is handy for getting a horse to rate before a barrel but not too handy when you want to do anything else. The back is not lifted and weight is not shifted back correctly due to this - so the shoulders are hindered. 

For consideration - Lisa Lockhart barrel racing. The horse, despite wearing what looks to be a Jr. Cowhorse which has a small amount of gag action, does not have what I consider a lifted shoulder. He's dropped his shoulder into the turn. The only way to lift the shoulder up and ride the horse more upright would be to teach the horse some degree of collection, round the back and drive up underneath with the hindquarters. One thing I've found most fascinating about barrel horses is that despite the fact that they are turning incredibly fast, their hindquarters are often drifting out and dragging behind, slowing the horse's ability to gather them under himself and limiting his ability to reach forward and _drive_. Which would be certainly handy. I'm not bashing on barrel racing, in fact I find it quite a fun sport - but all areas of equine sports have faults and this is merely my opinion on this particular one. 










Meanwhile, on a classically trained horse, rounding the back and head in relative elevation: 










An interesting thing to note that despite this horse appears somewhat "collected", he's being ridden on or even behind the vertical. He certainly has impressive front leg movement, but his hinds are trailing out behind, dropping his back and hollowing his spine so that all the weight of both the horse and the rider is nearly entirely resting on the front legs. 










Dressage today certainly has it's faults - but it is the discipline that pays more attention to anatomy and the actual bio-mechanics of how the horse's body functions and moves. No one bit can cause the lifting of the shoulders - that is done through careful training and technique. If a horse can travel "elevated" in the pasture without a rider, I seriously doubt he needs a certain bit to do so with a rider. What's more, anatomically "raising the head" has nothing to do at all with collection or lifting the shoulders really. It's about the movement of the body as a whole, and while some might say that the body follows where the head goes - that is certainly not entirely true in this manner.

As for bits and training - a bit is a training tool for establishing communication. A bit has the same mechanics in a world champion rider as a beginner, so I do not think that you can blame all issues on training. A bit certainly can be the cause of issues - otherwise, why would we ever try so many different types? As for high-head carriage - that is entirely different that forced false frame. A false frame is not a natural state for the horse to be in, and it is detrimental to the horse's body just as standing with hunched shoulders is detrimental to the person's body. High head carriage is a natural thing, and should not be punished. What is bad high head carriage is when the horse is forced into absolute elevation rather than relative elevation - this puts an immense amount of strain on the 2nd and 3rd vertebrae and also negates the reason for lifting the head in the first place. 

For example: absolute vs. relative elevation

Absolute:










Relative:










Relative elevation lightens the forehand and allows the horse to truly extend itself if wished for, freeing up the shoulder. Absolute elevation(which is the kind that comes from a gag) restricts the horse's movement and drops the spine. 










^^This is also a very interesting image on how the skeleton looks when held up at the degree a gag will and often does. Any bit can hold a horse up this high, but a gag especially because it's mechanics encourage the horse to this position. 

As for resources: 

This is a very interesting study on kissing spine and it's causes as well as treatments, and what may be noted from it is that the discipines more likely to cause kissing spine are jumping and dressage(Though it did not mention western I believe, so it's not fully covering the broad spectrum of equine athletes.), which dressage especially when done incorrectly can be a great cause of impaction on the horse's spine due to the complexity of the movements(there's a reason true collection used to be necessary for a dressage horse, and a reason why we're seeing more and more adverse effects on horses used in dressage today). https://aaep.org/sites/default/files/issues/proceedings-11proceedings-424.PDF

::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - False Collection & Evasions ::: Sustainable Dressage, though a personal blog has very good and educated information about classical dressage and certain things such as collection and the false frame of false collection is so detrimental, as well as sources from several notable equestrians and veterinarians. 

This is also a good video on gags and their mechanics: 



And this is a video on how proper riding(and improper riding) can cause serious affects to the vertebrae and the whole of the horse's body: https://vimeo.com/238968637 Link to Website if Vimeo doesn't work: https://www.equitopiacenter.com/videos/developing-your-horses-back-the-biomechanics-of-engagement/

Putting this all together and after studying and looking at how gags work as well as how other bits work, is how I've come to my opinion. I certainly don't believe that one bit will work for all types of horse(I had a mare that utterly _despised_ snaffles, and refused to do anything in them), I do believe that there are certain bits such as this that cause more harm that good.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

EDIT: my images hate me, so here they are in order:

Lisa Lockhart: 

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.tow...81db05/5c1324ac8d4ff.image.jpg?resize=400,351

Classical Dressage Rider for Comparison:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...Irwin-fancy-that.jpg?resize=300%2C289&ssl=1&s

Modern Dressage rider(behind the vertical):

http://rmds.org/potd/TarynAndersonAndRomulus2017.jpg

Absolute Elevation:

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/collection/false_collection/chacomo293b.jpg

Relative Elevation:

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/collection/false_collection/brapiaff.gif

Horse skeleton: 

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/collection/false_collection/spinal_curve2.gif

It should also be noted - the reason I dislike gags is the false frame they create. That false frame has been proven to cause kissing spine, among other things like incorrect musculature(especially a pseudo-ewe neck, caused by upside-down muscling on the neck). Any bit when used incorrectly can cause these issues - but the mechanics of the gag no matter how it's used encourage the false frame.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

And, last but not least(it really sucks that I can't edit to put this in the original post :| ), here's a video that shows another reason why I dislike gags.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I agree the gag doesn't lift the shoulder. It's a marketing ploy. 

The video with Gavin I have watched before and do believe it has some good information. However it was explaining mouthpieces. Even though some gags were used to demonstrate nothing was really explained about the gag action itself.

Most of us are not looking for the high degree of collection you are demonstrating with the dressage photos or think it can be achieved with a gag. You had asked why we might use one and I don't think any one here thought they were getting collection. Am I being dense and missing the point?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_I do believe that there are certain bits such as this that cause more harm that good._"

There are certainly bits that are often misused. But I can think of several very experienced riders of hot horses who have found gag bits useful. I would be careful about ruling out ANY class of bits. 

The first video you posted is marginal. Horse skulls are a bad way to analyze what happens in the mouth. So are arms. Horses do NOT always flee pressure. They can choose to push into it as well. Single joint snaffles do not create a nutcracker in the way he is describing. Some horses LIKE bar pressure, while others prefer tongue pressure. Some don't care either way. If you want to know what happens inside the mouth, you need to take X-rays:








I also reject the idea of "rounding backs". Physically speaking, it doesn't happen. And the emphasis on "round" has been at least as harmful as any class of bits could be! Unless one wants to compete in dressage, I'd recommend focusing on a SUPPLE or FLOWING back. This is easy to feel. Easy to feel when it is not supple. And a much better indicator of horse discomfort than round or hollow. This older thread turned quite bitter, but I think it provides multiple sides of the argument:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-horse-activity/horse-movement-inverted-round-674346/​
The second video makes some of the errors discussed (and rejected by some) on the above thread. I share a fascination with bits and horse biomechanics, but I find a lot of bad poop out there. I'd recommend these videos for understanding how bits work. @DanielDauphin used to post at HF, don't know if he still does:





















ADD: "_It should also be noted - the reason I dislike gags is the false frame they create._" Gag bits don't create a frame. No bit does. Depends on how the rider uses them and how the horse has been trained (or not) to respond. And of course, there are also horses who have had bad experiences with one class of bit or another and respond badly to them - unless retrained. I suspect a horse can be trained to lift the shoulder in response to a particular bit action. Or not. I find the idea that a given bit or given use of the rein creates anything in a horse a bit silly. It all depends on how they have been trained to respond.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The video in post 17 bothers me. First, most people don't think of twisted wire bits as gentle bits. Second, the lips do NOT pull like that. Third, who in the heck seesaws a gag bit and thinks they are being gentle? In fact, who seesaws ANY bit violently and thinks they are being gentle? I'm one of the least experienced riders on this thread, but I never, ever thought that!


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

I ride my current mare in a junior cow horse with a dog bone mouthpiece with a copper roller. Honestly we may find that when we compete we will need a stronger bit as she occasionally pushes through this one when she gets excited. The current bit has a small gag action which I like because it gives her the pre-warning. As others have said, sometimes horses require something stronger until they are worked through whatever it is they're having difficulty with. I wouldn't suggest to someone who could not stop their horse on trails with a snaffle that they are a bad rider or horse owner because their horse has learned to run through a snaffle nor would I suggest that they just only ride in enclosed areas because horses act differently in differing situations. I think to say a gag is never necessary is a bit extreme. I have had multiple horses who rode perfectly well in gag bits with far more gag action than what I'm currently using. 

I think having one bump on the horse to get their attention is far more kind and humane than sawing constantly in their mouth on what people consider a "light" bit. If I rode my mare in a simple D ring snaffle I'd be in her mouth constantly and she would push through it and get frustrated and run through it. I put her in the junior cow horse and when she's not excited or working then she can walk on a loose rein just fine with only the occasional reminder. 

As for lifting the shoulder in a barrel horse, it's often a matter of inches that we want to lift. The way Lockhart's horse is leaning is deceptive. Also considering she is an 11 time WNFR qualifier I would say that she knows how to lift Louie's shoulders when necessary.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

bsms said:


> The video in post 17 bothers me. First, most people don't think of twisted wire bits as gentle bits. Second, the lips do NOT pull like that. Third, who in the heck seesaws a gag bit and thinks they are being gentle? In fact, who seesaws ANY bit violently and thinks they are being gentle? I'm one of the least experienced riders on this thread, but I never, ever thought that!


I don't hold much stock in that person as she also sells her Meroth bit knockoff and considers her videos and rants as science.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@bsms

True, the spine is rather rigid. But it's also naturally curved upwards, and when a horse is ridden a high, strained headset the weight is pressed more and more onto the back rather than the hindquarters as it ought to be, which certainly is not good. A horse can travel naturally without a rider with it's back "rounded" and travel hollow as well. When a horse lifts it's head that high, the topline contracts because the muscles are pulling inwards from what I've read and understood, and that's exactly the opposite of what we want in a balanced horse. Something interesting I've found is that kissing spine is most commonly located between the T12 and the T18 vertebrae - which is exactly where the saddle goes. The study I linked above on kissing spine concluded that the majority of horses with kissing spine were dressage or jumping horses. And with the misconceptions regarding collection in dressage these days and the amount of people riding and training behind or on the vertical with flashy leg movement but a sagging back and trailing hind legs - I find that very easy to logically believe. 

As for nutcracker action - I disagree. All three of the horses I currently own are ridden in single joint snaffles, and they absolutely can nutcracker and poke the palate. When pulled too hard or used incorrectly(such as the hands being too high, etc), or when the horse resists the bit and pushes against it(and your hands are too stiff).

This is obviously a very exaggerated image, but I think it has some good insight on how the elevated head position a gag causes many times can effect a horse's natural body carriage. (Link if the image won't work: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...ads/2015/02/multifidus.jpg?resize=550%2C209&s)










The horse must carry all our weight on his back, and riding with the back dropped and hollow cannot be comfortable for him, as shown by the study on kissing spine - they concluded that the impaction from the sitting trot was one of the main causes for dressage horses.. The video I linked on Vimeo has an interesting piece in which they did radiographs of the horse's back at rest and with the back slightly "lifted"(obviously without a rider, but it's an interesting standpoint), which shows that the space between the vertebrae widens when the back is lifted. I'm not entirely sure what to think of it yet, but it's certainly interesting to consider. 

A supple and flowing back is certainly important, but I think it's quite logical that riding with the back hollow and all your weight sitting on the horse's more unsupported spine is detrimental. There's a reason a horse has to build up the muscle to do dressage moves. As for traveling up hills in a "natural frame" - a natural frame with good self carriage is one thing, while a poor frame with bad self carriage is another. My mare is nearly always ridden in her natural frame with working, the only time we try for a "low and long" or slightly elevated frame is when we're doing some arena work to help strengthen her topline and her training. I've seen horses that never need to be taught any degree of collection because they have such good natural self carriage, and others that have utterly abysmal self carriage(often caused by bad riders), and must be taught how to carry themselves better. Many 100-mile endurance horses use dressage techniques for strength and better balance as well. 

As for the "hot horse" issue - I've grown up riding hot horses, Arabs, ponies, TB crosses, gaited horses, the like. I've never once felt the need to use a gag bit to control them and I've also never once owned a perfectly trained horse that "wouldn't need the gag anyhow". The majority of my horses can learned to ride from the seat and listen despite being hot horses, so if an amateur, non-professional rider such as myself can do that, then I really don't see why a professional couldn't take a bit more time training their horses. I understand that some horses are very stubborn and very hot-headed, but that's not something that should be solved by a bit in my opinion.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_True, the spine is rather rigid. But it's also naturally curved upwards.._."

Not really. And when ANY rider mounts up, it sags. Not much though, because it cannot sag much without breaking the spine. Fortunately, the SPINE is not the weight bearing part of the back. The MUSCLES are, and the horse will tense the muscles as much as needed to support the spine - which is why 800 lb Bandit used to be able to carry 300 lbs on his back! It never rounds up:








"_As for nutcracker action - I disagree._"



> "When tension was applied to the reins, the mouthpiece pressed more deeply into the tongue, thereby causing the joint to move away from the palate. Single-jointed bits are usually described as having a nutcracker-like action, the implication being that when tension is applied to the reins, the angle between the arms of the mouthpiece closes and the joint is pushed toward the palate. In our study, any nutcracker effect that tended to push the joint toward the palate was more than offset by indentation of the tongue."
> 
> - Bitting: The Inside Story by Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PHD, MRCVS


"_The horse must carry all our weight on his back, and riding with the back dropped and hollow cannot be comfortable for him..._"

I've never met anyone who disagrees: Horses should not be ridden in a way that drops their back and forces them to brace with all their strength to prevent injury.

"_As for the "hot horse" issue - I've grown up riding hot horses, Arabs, ponies, TB crosses, gaited horses, the like. I've never once felt the need to use a gag bit to control them..._" If @phantomhorse13 says one helps her, my willingness to debate is over. Her word may not be "gospel" but it is close enough to gospel for me! Same with some other riders on HF who have found them useful. 

For my own experience, vastly more limited, I've found curb bits very helpful in working with Mia (and to a lesser extent with Bandit). Many told me switching Mia to a curb would ruin her. Instead, it made it possible to ride her with some margin of safety. Bits are about BOTH control and communication. This forms a cycle: the control teaches the horse to listen, as the horse listens, you can do more, and a spiral of increasing experience results in a horse who listens in most situations. Most. Because 2 of my horses are far too independent to EVER give me total control.

If you have never felt a gag helped, fine. You may change your mind someday. Bits are a tool. When you meet a horse who needs a miter saw, you may find the drills you own aren't up to the job.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm in the "any bit (or other piece of equipment) can be cruel" if in the wrong, or ignorant, hands.

I've ridden many polo horses in various gag bits, rarely having to engage either the bit or poll actions. Even in practices or low goal games ( my interest is in rehab, generally, not high goal competition).

I only own one. A simple ring snaffle type mouthpiece. I've used it to introduce horses to responding to the signal of bits. To lighten them up, essentially. Western or english.

I've also used it on horses that arrived quite dependent on the reins and bits. Again to lighten their responses. And again, western or english.

It works well.

It's a shame if one who is interested in horsemanship doesn't get to be around more talented horsemen who can utilize a variety of tools well. Good horsemen are fascinating to me.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> As for the "hot horse" issue - I've grown up riding hot horses, Arabs, ponies, TB crosses, gaited horses, the like. I've never once felt the need to use a gag bit to control them and I've also never once owned a perfectly trained horse that "wouldn't need the gag anyhow". The majority of my horses can learned to ride from the seat and listen despite being hot horses, so if an amateur, non-professional rider such as myself can do that, then I really don't see why a professional couldn't take a bit more time training their horses. I understand that some horses are very stubborn and very hot-headed, but that's not something that should be solved by a bit in my opinion.


So how did you handle the horses who _didn't_ 'learn to ride from the seat?' What is your solution to the issue of a horse taking off with you out in the open?


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

Images of the horse's spine show that it does appear to curve upwards, from what I can see, in sort of an S shape. If you've got a good source or book on how it works I'd love to read it, I'm having a bit of trouble finding anything on exactly how flexible the spine is and it's an interesting topic. 

As for the gag issue - I'm debating it because I've yet to come across an argument _for_ gags that really makes much sense on a scientific level. Most people just use them for control, which in my opinion isn't the reason to use a bit. Others say they lift the shoulder, or collect the horse, but that's not true because collection is not caused by lifting the face nor is lifting the shoulder. The higher the head and more tucked the chin, the harder it is for a horse to do that, hence to need for relative elevation vs. absolute elevation.

So, what exactly is the reason? I consider gags very harsh bits indeed, and not something to get softness from. I've ridden horses my whole life and they soften just fine in other bits, it just takes a bit more time. I also have a friend that rides in a wonder bit and her mare has an upside down neck musculature from having her head high constantly, as well as not being a soft horse in the slightest. I also have a friend that barrel races and rides in a sweet six and her horses are certainly not soft either, nor controlled. It's not really fair normally to judge something off a few incidents - but I've had no other good proof that this is a good bit. The control aspect can be applied to anything, I could ride in a bike chain bit for control as well and my horse would be soft on the bit because he wouldn't want to even think of fighting back. 

So yes, I'd like to hear the actual mechanical and scientific reasons for using a gag other than what's commonly said and is very incorrect from what I've seen. A bit is not as bad as the hands that use it - a bike chain bit is a bike chain bit no matter who's using it, and just because someone might apply less pressure than another rider doesn't mean it won't hurt. I personally can't believe that getting a horse's lips stretched to the degree some gags can stretch them cannot cause a significant amount of pain. 

As for the horsemen I've learned from - well, I respect them even more for getting the same result without what I consider a training gimmick. Any horse I've ever ridden that's been ridden mainly in a gag has been very touchy and avoiding of contact, not soft and supple.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

The mechanics of the gag? 

As soon as you lift the reins, on a well-balanced gag bit with reins that are also balanced to the bit, there is slight poll pressure. It is best, and ideally, used as a pre-signal bit, as mentioned earlier. A small "ok. Something is going to change."

A sensitive rider, with sensitive hands and seat can then offer cues for turning, slowing down, increasing rate of speed... without ever getting into the horse's mouth. 

And release is immediate. Providing the headstall, bit, and reins are balanced.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

When you saw horses ridden with gag bits, did they also have running martingales in use? Or draw reins?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

> In1976 was also when Hans Carlson demonstrated that the main function of the back muscles was not to increase the range of movement of the horse’s vertebral column, as suggested in the video as well as in the show ring, but at the contrary, to protect the vertebral column from movements exceeding the thoracolumbar spine’s possible range of motion. Uneducated riders argue that the study was made on cats. Carlson’s study was effectively effectuated on cats, which demonstrates in fact, that visual impressions can easily lead to the wrong perception. Multiple studies have then been done duplicating the same protocol and the findings were similar with horses and most terrestrial mammals. Basically, all the theories promoting better performances and gaits through stretching and greater amplitude of the horse’s vertebral column movements are in direct contradiction with the way the horse’s vertebral column and surrounding muscles are designed to work.
> 
> In 1980, Leo Jeffcott measured the range of possible movement of the horse’s vertebral column. Many studies after Jeffcott found differences in the location of vertebral column movements but they all found a limited range of motion. Basically, the back muscles do not increase the vertebral column range of movement but, at the contrary, resist forces induced on the horse’s vertebral column in order to maintain the vertebral column movements within the limits of its possible range of motion. This was 1980 and it was already demonstrated that theories such as the swinging back and stretching were in plain contradiction with the way the horse’s vertebral column and back muscles operate. At this point of knowledge, the thought that the horse’s thoracolumbar column was flexing longitudinally and laterally as a whole was totally blown away. All investigations clearly demonstrated that while greater movements were possible between T9 and mostly T14, while some horses show mobility until T16, the rest of the horse thoracolumbar spine was quite rigid. Movements occur but within the limits of a restricted ranged of motion.
> 
> ...





> When I had the chance to talk with Dr. Hilary Clayton in January 2009 and asked her about how a horse's back shape changes under weight, her answer was a very quick and sure "It sags". So the idea of a horse "rounding up under the saddle" doesn't even seem to be a question in the minds of people who actually study biomechanics. They know it doesn't actually happen. It is just one of the many "saddle fit myths" that have been perpetuated without any real backing.
> 
> Comparing rising and sitting trot
> 
> ...





> So what did they find?
> 
> For every full stride, each muscle showed two, non-identical bursts of electrical activity. So each muscle would have been contracting twice, which makes sense because the back flexes and extends twice during a full stride. (The activity of the longissimus dorsi was higher when the leg on the same side was in stance phase and less when the leg on the other side was stance phase, though it still fired during that phase of the stride.)
> 
> ...


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

To the OP, with all due respect, I have not seen any scientific evidence from you as you are requesting from those who have or do ride in a gag. You have posted videos, links and pictures of the results from forcing a horse into a false frame which can be from numerous other bits not the gag alone. Or you've posted videos from self proclaimed bit experts that coincide with your opinion.

Several people have posted explaining why they might use a gag and again no one is trying to force a frame or collection. Those who were bold enough to post pictures of them using them on their horses you can see they aren't trying to do so and they have a natural headset.
Somewhere I have pictures of me barrel racing in a wonder gag on a horse that placed in the top 5 Jurrasic Classic 1D (not with me) Horse turning the barrel with his head and neck in a natural position, no mouth gaping even though the reins and part of the gag is engaged. Again I used the bit to help stay out of his way but still give direction.
I have no scientific evidence, nothing more than my anecdotal evidence and opinion. It sounds as though your anecdotal evidence has made your mind up already though, fair enough. 
My advise is if you find no use for a bit don't use it. I think you may find yourself frustrated trying to convince the whole horse owning world a piece of equipment is wrong.

Good luck on your horsemanship journey.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@boots

And what about pressure on the mouth? When you pull, the mouthpiece slides up and applies pressure on the lips even if it doesn't apply pressure on the bars/tongue till it hits the end of the shank. And when it does.... people cringe at the amount of lip stretch some horses in a snaffle have, but given the amount of shank a gag can have I can't call that "gentle poll pressure" in the slightest. A horse's lips are very sensitive, as there's a reason some people use twitches/lip chains. The poll is also highly sensitive. If you have a hot horse(which most people on here so far have said to have) he's likely going to fight the bit rather than listen to a small cue, which means that mouthpiece is sliding all the way up until the lip stretch is massive and the head is forced up due the the pain from that, while also being forced down from the pressure on the poll. And if he's still fighting, or if you're unbalanced and pulling on the reins, or if you just don't have soft hands? Ouch. 

This is a bit with only a small amount of gag action - and that's a horrendous amount of lip stretch. 










And the sliding gag:










There is no way that I can justify using a bit that can do _that_ just for creating softness - there are plenty of better options. Even if you don't think you will ever do that to your horse, what if he spooks, or you loose your balance, or you fall off? There could be some serious damage done with that amount of scissor-mechanics and leverage, moreso than a different bit in my opinion. You can give a pre-signal just as easily by merely "picking up" the reins or shifting your seat. Sure, a snaffle can cause a huge amount of lip stretch as well, and so can a curb, but it takes a lot more force from the rider to yank the bit that far up in the horse's mouth. The gag just... slides up, because that's what it's made to do. 

As for the horses I've ridden/seen ridden? Nope, I've never seen one used in either of those. Neither are very popular where I live as it's mostly a western community, but tie-downs are very common which I don't think is a good combination with a any leverage bit really either unless it's rather loose. But fortunately I haven't seen anyone use a gag and a tie-down together yet, I can only image how terrible that would go.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

@equinest - the photos you show don't look good. I agree. Those are the kind of cherry-picked photos that groups who want all horse riding ended use. 

I can find awful photos of horses in any kind of bit. And doing any discipline.

What if a horse spooks in a curb and the rider doesn't have much for a seat? Or a bosal? 

Ever see a horse stumble, fall, merely on accident, and come up with a bloody mouth or nose, or scuffed up skin on the nose?


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> This is a bit with only a small amount of gag action - and that's a horrendous amount of lip stretch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But you can do this with a snaffle:









or this:









So how can you justify using _that_ bit?

What if he spooks, or you lose your balance, or you fall off?


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

A snaffle however doesn't slide up when you have correct hands - a gag does. That's the difference. No matter how to pull, it _slides_. Any bit can cause pain, I absolute agree - but a gag is made to slide up and pull the lip. Any other bit is not. That's why I dislike them, and that's why I can't see the purpose of using them - we all know that pulling the lip to that degree is painful, and the gag is made to do that. Another bit like a curb or snaffle you have to exert a huge amount of force on, or the horse has to be riding with it's face out and resisting the bit. But due to the gag's action, no matter where the horse carries it's head, you can make the bit ride up it's face like that.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

The Equinest said:


> A snaffle however doesn't slide up when you have correct hands - a gag does. That's the difference. No matter how to pull, it _slides_. Any bit can cause pain, I absolute agree - but a gag is made to slide up and pull the lip. Any other bit is not. That's why I dislike them, and that's why I can't see the purpose of using them - we all know that pulling the lip to that degree is painful, and the gag is made to do that. Another bit like a curb or snaffle you have to exert a huge amount of force on, or the horse has to be riding with it's face out and resisting the bit. But due to the gag's action, no matter where the horse carries it's head, you can make the bit ride up it's face like that.


Naw. A gag bit doesn't *have to* pull up the lips. 

Any more than a curb but *has to* hurt the bars of the lower jaw and ultimately deaden the nerves. Or painfully exert pressure on the tongue.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

It _does_ though. You pull back on a curb gently and it simply rotates in the horse's mouth, and applies a small amount of poll pressure. You pull back on the curb harder, there's only three real directions force is being applied in - 1.) the bit applying pressure back, 2.) the poll applying pressure down, and 3.) the curb strap applying pressure into the jaw to keep the curb from over-rotating. So the horse is essentially being told to move back and down - slow down. The gag, however, when pressure is applied, has 1.) pressure on the poll down and 2.) pressure on the bit up. Without the curb strap(because for some reason, gags don't need that? That's what I've gathered from these comments, though I'd want a curb strap even more with a gag since it would prevent it from rotating and sliding to the point of extreme pull on the lips, making it a slightly better bit, though without the curb strap you have the absolute freedom to apply as much pull on the lips as you'd like), the head is trapped between those two forces. There's no backwards force till you hit the end of the sliding shank, if what you say about the mechanics is true, so all you're down is telling the horse to put his head up and down at the same time. Which.... again, doesn't make much sense. With another bit you'd have to hold the horse's head up by force to get the same action that a gag has, with a gag that's just the natural mechanics.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Bits no matter what kind, are only as good as the hands that hold the reins. 

Any bit can damage a horses mouth with the reins in uneducated hands. Same bit with educated hands holding the reins can be a great tool.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

The Equinest said:


> It _does_ though. You pull back on a curb gently and it simply rotates in the horse's mouth, and applies a small amount of poll pressure. You pull back on the curb harder, there's only three real directions force is being applied in - 1.) the bit applying pressure back, 2.) the poll applying pressure down, and 3.) the curb strap applying pressure into the jaw to keep the curb from over-rotating. So the horse is essentially being told to move back and down - slow down. The gag, however, when pressure is applied, has 1.) pressure on the poll down and 2.) pressure on the bit up. Without the curb strap(because for some reason, gags don't need that? That's what I've gathered from these comments, though I'd want a curb strap even more with a gag since it would prevent it from rotating and sliding to the point of extreme pull on the lips, making it a slightly better bit, though without the curb strap you have the absolute freedom to apply as much pull on the lips as you'd like), the head is trapped between those two forces. There's no backwards force till you hit the end of the sliding shank, if what you say about the mechanics is true, so all you're down is telling the horse to put his head up and down at the same time. Which.... again, doesn't make much sense. With another bit you'd have to hold the horse's head up by force to get the same action that a gag has, with a gag that's just the natural mechanics.


Ah. But pressure applied to the shanks of a curb didn't " simply rotate" the mouthpiece. We have to remember the amount of "purchase" on the curb. 

The length of metal that extends upward from the mouthpiece and to which the headstall attaches. Curbs are leverage bits. Going back to low level physics, think of the load arm being the purchase, the effort arm is the shank, the mouthpiece is the fulcrum. 

Engage the effort arm, and the load arm also changes, putting downward pressure on the fulcrum/bit. Basically why we don't start young horses in curbs, and why we stress immediate, at least quick, release when coming with a curb bit. Any bit.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

The mechanics of a gag still don't make much sense to me, though. What is the use of telling the horse to put his head up and down at the same time? And since he's much more sensitive in the mouth, he ends up raising his head to avoid pressure from the mouth and either tucking his chin or sticking his nose out to avoid/bear the poll pressure. So.... you're again, just telling him to do two opposing motions in one. Which I can't imagine is very clear or precise to the horse when trying to give a cue. 

The ratio of pressure applied with the hands vs. pressure applied on the bit changes due to the length of the purchase. It can alter it from a 1:1 snaffle ratio to a 1:2 ratio if the purchase is 1 inch and the shank is 2. Which is a rather short purchase, compared to others. But many gags have a purchase, which means now when you pull on the rein, you must first lift the bit, sliding it up the mouth, wait for the bit to lock and allow the poll to have pressure applied, and depending on the length of purchase - which is often very long, I dislike any bits with a lot of purchase and many gags have a lot of purchase - you're applying a very mismatched ratio of pressure. For example, this bit has only a smaller amount of gag action but a large purchase, meaning once the gag slides up all the way you're applying an immense amount of force on the face and poll. 










And the common "Wonder Bit" has a shorter purchase but more gag, meaning there's less force applied to the mouth but more to the lips and poll, which means when you pull back rather than giving a clear cue to stop or slow down, you're giving a cue to raising the head. I've seen these bits in action on hot horses, and you have to pull back a great deal to engage the actual mouthpiece into applying enough pressure to make the horse stop, which means often you're pulling back enough to completely rotate the bit in the horse's mouth and make the mouthpiece ride up the shanks and apply an upwards force, then a downwards force from the poll. 










That upwards + downwards action isn't going to get a hot horse to slow - you're going to have to engage the mouthpiece into putting more pressure on the actual bars and tongue. Which means over rotation and squeezing the head between the bit and poll.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

The leverage of a curb is also dependent on the angle of the shanks in relation to the purchase.

Regarding poll pressure, if you put your hand on your horse's poll does his head fly up in the air? A horse will raise its' head when a snake or curb or mechanical hackamore or bosal is used harshly, too.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> A snaffle however doesn't slide up when you have correct hands - a gag does. That's the difference...a gag is made to slide up and pull the lip...


First, a gag doesn't pull any higher up "with correct hands" than a snaffle does. Gag bits can go no higher than the molars, and lots of folks have pulled snaffles that far back. 

Nothing evil about pulling back on the corners of the mouth. You can pull them back to the edge of the molars without causing much pain. After all, lots of horses are ridden with the snaffle bit held that high!










OMG! English riders are so cruel!​
Nope. In common with western riding and any other kind of riding, SOME riders are idiots and jerks. Others are not. Mia wasn't thrilled when I tried a 4-ring elevator bit on her, but she wasn't in pain. It just didn't seem to offer her or me anything we didn't already have in an O-ring snaffle, and she continued to prefer a Billy Allen curb to any snaffle.

Some years back, I bought the dreaded, evil Tom Thumb bit and tried it on Mia. She didn't blink an eye. Tried it on Trooper. He didn't care. He'd probably had one before when sheepherding, like his half-brothers still do:








Tried it with Cowboy & later with Bandit. They didn't fuss or care either. Grass is more likely to catch on the knuckle with a Tom Thumb than with a Billy Allen. Apart from that, my horses didn't notice a Tom Thumb as being anything other than just another curb. I junked it a few months back along with a dozen other bits I never reach for, but most bits truly are only as harsh as the hands that use them. I've been told Waterford bits are cruel. This was Mia in one:








I've been told all curb bits are cruel. They are not. I've been told all bits are cruel. They are not. Now you are telling me all gag bits are cruel although you admit you've never even TRIED riding with one. While very experienced riders are saying they work well in some horses. 

So who do I believe? You, or riders with a ton of experience, or my own "lying eyes"? Heck, maybe I'll pick up a "Wonder bit" and try it with Bandit, just to see once again for myself.








BTW, just looking at it, I see one advantage over a snaffle: The bit will move less than the hand does, dampening any ill effect of an unsteady hand. A three inch pull of the hands will not create three inches of movement in the mouth.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> A snaffle however doesn't slide up when you have correct hands


Contact on _any_ bit is going to make it slide up the bars towards the molars, unless the horse is massively behind the vertical. How much it moves depends on the force of the pull, due to the anatomy of the mouth and simple physics. 




The Equinest said:


> a gag is made to slide up and pull the lip... we all know that pulling the lip to that degree is painful


I disagree that all pulling on the lip is painful. When I go to the dentist, they pull my lips all over the place in the process of cleaning my teeth and never once have I considered it painful. Every time a person gives any kind of oral medication by syringe, they are likely pushing the lips back until they reach the molars.

Here are close ups of the pictures I posted earlier:









You can clearly see the difference in the bit between the neutral and fully engaged positions. I agree that the bit has stretched the lips, but what I do not agree with is that it is painful. It is simply another signal for the horse to interpret. I see a horse carrying the bit with no sign of gaping. 


You have made it clear you would never use a gag bit, but still haven't answered what bit you _would_ use in the same situation.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

> A horse's lips are very sensitive, as there's a reason some people use twitches/lip chains. The poll is also highly sensitive.


Incorrect. The bars and facial areas where a hackmore sits are more sensitive than the lips but yet they become numb very quickly. If you look in a horses mouth the lips curl in over the bars which is something no one with their demonstrations with horse skulls simulates. Despite the claims of bar pressure versus tongue, lip, poll being "gentler", I believe to be false as a bit that uses bar pressure still essentially sits on the inner lips. Whereas the BOTH the snaffle and gag still use the corners of the lips.

That is NOT why twitches are used. Using a twitch on the lip or upper gumline causes a very brief discomfort for distraction then the endorphins kick in creating a high. This is where I see twitches being misused. One, from people thinking it is pain that makes the twitch work and use it too tightly which can cause physical damage. Two, taking the twitch off before the horse has a chance to feel the endorphins.





> A snaffle however doesn't slide up when you have correct hands - a gag does. That's the difference. No matter how to pull, it _slides_. Any bit can cause pain, I absolute agree - but a gag is made to slide up and pull the lip.


"When you have correct hands". That goes for a lot of bit use. If bits were the only factor rather than also applying the factor of the hands using them then people with butcher mitts for hands, lack of knowledge could get by. In those instances where it slaps a little Band-Aid on it doesn't last long and bigger problems emerge. While there are people like this out there, no one here commenting is in that category.





> Without the curb strap(because for some reason, gags don't need that? That's what I've gathered from these comments, though I'd want a curb strap even more with a gag since it would prevent it from rotating and sliding to the point of extreme pull on the lips, making it a slightly better bit, though without the curb strap you have the absolute freedom to apply as much pull on the lips as you'd like), the head is trapped between those two forces.


I don't always take the curb strap off of the banana gag as I am assuming you are addressing me as no one else here mentioned it.
In the situation where horses have been pulled on too much in the snaffle but are still green they find relief with the gag and no curb strap. They relax and quit worrying about their face. After they have quit worrying I can go back to the snaffle or whatever bit I think appropriate. Again just the lip pressure, little to no poll is applied if not using a curb unless you hit the end of the gag which on my banana takes a long time to get there. 

So many people think if you change a bit on a horse it means your upping the pressure and there is some imaginary gate saying you can't go back. A lot of the times if I change bits, it may only be for 20 minutes or it could be a few days. I am trying to change the feel and get him thinking so he doesn't just go into auto mode. "I feel pressure here so I just push through". That differences in where the pressure is applied (that doesn't always mean increased pressure) can be be enough to get him to think about what I am asking of him and if I have done my job he relaxes and gets responsive with less and less direction from me.


As far as poll pressure is concerned. Horses will lower their head only if been taught to. It isn't natural for them to lower their head to poll pressure. How many times have you witnessed a horse or colt getting a lead rope over his poll being tied to the trailer/tie rail and once he feels it tighten over his head, he pops his head up? Same with maybe a horse who had been turned out on the lawn with the lead rope thrown over his back, it slides down his neck to his poll and he steps on the end and the reaction is to pop the head up and back.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

No bit is meant to have that much pressure on the lips all the time - when you ride with a snaffle held in that high of a position you create pressure with no release. Not exactly what we want, no. Also, considering every rider I've ever seen in real life or in pictures with a snaffle that high has a noseband cranking their horse's mouth shut, I'd say they're certainly in pain. Personally, I think if nosebands were eliminated in dressage we'd see some idols fall. 

The difference again, between the curb and the snaffle or a gag bit is that the gag is _made_ to ride up on the mouth like that. Your method of communication is not a pressure on the bars or tongue, it is the stretching of the lips upwards and the forcing of the poll downwards. When you apply poll pressure to a horse, a well trained horse will drop it's head. A stubborn or green horse will resist. With a gag, you're applying pressure to the corners of the lips, and when the gag locks the bars more, and the poll. The mouth pressure pulls the head up - and that's the action most people on here have described as desirable so far. You "lift" the face. But you're also applying a considerable amount of pressure on the poll, especially in those longer shanked or sliding gags. The poll action on a well-trained "professional" mount should tell him to drop his head - but the gag is telling him to raise it. It doesn't make any sense. The horse is now confused, because would you like him to drop the head, or raise the head? Are you wanting him to stop, or merely raise his head position? I _have_ ridden horses in gags before, and they generally seem to be very touchy with the face, not in a good "soft and supple" sort of way but in "please don't pull on my face" way. I've also ridden the same horse in a regular solid curb and she was much more relaxed with the mechanics. 

I disagree very much that stretching the lips does not cause pain - most horses have to be sedated when their teeth are done anyhow, and if lip stretching _wasn't_ painful why would some horses object to it so much? I've never met a horse comfortable and relaxed with their lip stretched, ever. Some horses tolerate it more than others, but I've never met one that would just love for you to come and stretch their lips up 1 or 2 inches. It's not a natural position for them to be in at all. 

A snaffle does _not_ slide up if you are a good rider and you're riding a horse that's well trained. I've ridden a majority of snaffle horses my whole life, and only those that were resistant to the bit or if my hands were too strong/too high did the bit ever slide up. A horse that is on the bit and willing doesn't fight it, and hands that aren't yanking his face off don't cause the bit to slide up to any amount of a painful degree. A bit generally rests about 1 inch from the molars - pull it up to the degree some gags can just in normal riding situations, and you're absolutely hitting the molars, hence the gaping mouth. 

As for that image of a gag in a fully engaged position - it's not fully engaged at all. There's no curb strap, you can continue to pull back and lift the bit in the horses mouth for quite a great deal longer. As for what bit I would use? Well, no one has asked so far so forgive me for not answering. There's also not been any certain "situation" other than owning a hot horse, which I already do and she goes just fine in both a snaffle with direct reining and a curb for leg cues or neck reining. I've never felt the need to subject her to a gag just because she's hot headed and stubborn. No one has addressed the fact that the gag slides up and applies force both and and down, which are rather conflicting cues. I don't think there's any _one_ bit that will always work for every horse, but I do think there's certain types of bits that should be avoided due to their poor mechanics. A solid curb will be quieter in the horse's mouth over a sliding and jointed gag as it won't jostle with every move of the hands, and many hot horses are very sensitive rather than really hot headed.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

> The difference again, between the curb and the snaffle or a gag bit is that the gag is _made_ to ride up on the mouth like that. Your method of communication is not a pressure on the bars or tongue, it is the stretching of the lips upwards and the forcing of the poll downwards. When you apply poll pressure to a horse, a well trained horse will drop it's head. A stubborn or green horse will resist. With a gag, you're applying pressure to the corners of the lips, and when the gag locks the bars more, and the poll. The mouth pressure pulls the head up - and that's the action most people on here have described as desirable so far. You "lift" the face. But you're also applying a considerable amount of pressure on the poll, especially in those longer shanked or sliding gags. The poll action on a well-trained "professional" mount should tell him to drop his head - but the gag is telling him to raise it. It doesn't make any sense. The horse is now confused, because would you like him to drop the head, or raise the head?



The pressure on the lips is another way to communicate with the horse. The gag uses the corner of lips like a snaffle does. It does NOT use constant pressure if it is adjusted to hang just below the corners like a snaffle can be adjusted. 

ALL leverage/ curb bits use poll pressure if pulled on in the same manner you think all gags are pulled depending on the length of purchase. The gag uses more lip pressure before the bar/tongue/palate (depending on the mouthpiece and curb adjustment) and poll pressure come into play. 



You keep saying the pressure on lips causes the horse to lift the head. So because a snaffle uses the corners of the mouth like a gag how do you manage to keep him from running around with his head up in the air? Because you taught him. Just like you taught him to drop his head to poll pressure.




> I disagree very much that stretching the lips does not cause pain - most horses have to be sedated when their teeth are done anyhow, and if lip stretching _wasn't_ painful why would some horses object to it so much? I've never met a horse comfortable and relaxed with their lip stretched, ever. Some horses tolerate it more than others, but I've never met one that would just love for you to come and stretch their lips up 1 or 2 inches. It's not a natural position for them to be in at all.



No, they object to having their mouth cranked open to accommodate hands and tools for extended periods of time. I have had a couple equine dentists that were pretty handy and could get by some horses that were pretty ouchy without sedating. They gave the horses a break to rest often and manipulated the jaw to let the horse feel the difference in taking the points off.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> No bit is meant to have that much pressure on the lips all the time
> 
> With a gag, you're applying pressure to the corners of the lips, and when the gag locks the bars more, and the poll. The mouth pressure pulls the head up


Who here has suggested riding with constant contact in a gag? And if mouth/lip pressure "pulls" the head up, then any horse wearing any bit should be going around with its head in the air, as every bit applies pressure to those places.




The Equinest said:


> A bit generally rests about 1 inch from the molars - pull it up to the degree some gags can just in normal riding situations, and you're absolutely hitting the molars, hence the gaping mouth.
> 
> As for that image of a gag in a fully engaged position - it's not fully engaged at all. There's no curb strap, you can continue to pull back and lift the bit in the horses mouth for quite a great deal longer.


There is a straight line from my elbow to the bit, showing solid contact. But since the horse isn't gaping his mouth, it must not be hitting his molars. So how is this bit in this context not communicating and instead 'forcing' the horse with pain? 




The Equinest said:


> As for what bit I would use? Well, no one has asked so far so forgive me for not answering.


Post #26 did.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

I don't know how embroiled I want to get in this but I will at least put in some input which I don't think has been included yet. 

Im also going to link an article by Horse Nation that I think is rather good that I read while researching gag bits. 
https://www.horsenation.com/2012/06/07/a-bit-of-advice-gag-bits/ 

I'll briefly address the "tightening on both ends aspect" hopefully with enough clarity that it's well understood but I'm a bit sleep deprived so if something is unclear let me know. 

Starting with forces. And the bridle as a system. When a force is applied on the reins, with a traditional snaffle that force is felt in the mouth according to the angle between the bit and the hand. This can be pressure on the bars, pressure on the lips or tongue and palate pressure. We universally with anything short of bridleless use degrees of pressure to communicate piles of different things to the horse. Be it in a halter or a bridle or what may have you. 

Let's look at the gag and the idea of it tightening on the poll and the mouth at the same time. This would be true if the face of the horse were as hard as a cinder block- but it's not it's firmer around the bones, and soft around the skin and fleshy tissue. The skin of the mouth yields (I mean this in the purely physics related sense) with any compressive or tensile force. Basically it's a non-neutonian solid like every other gooey thing on the planet. So when the gag is engaged it applies a pressure and that force causes the most moveable thing to move in direct relation to the magnitude of the force- in this case the bit moves up in the horses mouth. It does not apply forces in both directions on an equivalent scale (more about this in a minute) because the mouth yields to the pressure (where there is yielding "work done by a force in physics terms" there is release of pressure). Nothing is resisting it except the friction of the strap through the loops or the rings through the bit and the natural resistance of fatty tissue (which is functionally zero) these "friction forces" (simply resistance to change) are of a much much lower magnitude, enough that we can essentially say that the gag is not a leverage bit- it's actually just a much stronger snaffle. 

I think everyone else has addressed the concerns. If you'd like I can work on some force equations and draw a diagram for you (though finals just ended and I'd love to not, but if it would help with the concept) 

I ended up buying a gag bit as a Christmas present for a friend because of it's "magnifying snaffle action" where the horse feels more in the mouth than is applied in the hand because her horse is a large and rooting creature and she is a girl with one hand and nerve damage in the other and doesn't have the strength to resist him pulling her down in a plain snaffle. He knows she's weak and will happily pull her around all day if he could. Like all bits their use is situational. I do not use a gag on my pony though he is also hot and stubborn and can bolt like a shot out of a gun. He doesn't push onto the forehand, and his job requires work on the contact. For him- Not a good option. For the horse in question- I'm hopeful it will work for him, since he's not very good in a curb and he's a bit of a bully to his rider in a snaffle. 


I will add as a caveat. We are working on the lips of the horse- my description of them yielding is purely in the physics sense. On the horse pressure on the lips is an aspect of the snaffle action that is conducive to braking and elevating the forehand.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I use a solid shanked low port bit with rollers. My gelding is very soft and responsive in this bit. Very light touch on reins is all it takes,for him to turn or respond.

It's adjusted to just be touching corners of mouth. 

He's not a horse you get rough with or use force, because you won't win. Here a picture of him, I'm on him with his blankets was super cold. I was asking him to turn, he's responding with just a very light touch with the reins. 

It's our job to educate them well both on the ground and under saddle. And responding to bit starts from on the ground training. 

He was full of himself, was windy an very cold 14 below zero wind chill.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_I disagree very much that stretching the lips does not cause pain - most horses have to be sedated when their teeth are done anyhow, and if lip stretching wasn't painful why would some horses object to it so much?_"

Ummm...because their TEETH are being worked on? And I've had a couple of good equine dentists who did the work with no sedative. The lips are not even part of the equation. Bandit has enough excess lip that I could pull the corners up to his eyeballs without fazing him. OK, slight exaggeration. But not everyone can get a horse to stand calm enough, long enough, to file teeth in the back of the mouth while the horse is awake. I've seen it done. But the horse's concern is NOT their lips!

"Y_our method of communication is not a pressure on the bars or tongue, it is the stretching of the lips upwards and the forcing of the poll downwards._"

I don't understand your fascination with stretching lips. Nor do I understand why you think snaffles do NOT stretch lips.








​
Snaffle or gag, you can only raise the mouthpiece until it encounters the molars. Mia could avoid a snaffle because, like many others, she realized she could stretch her head out and let the snaffle rest against her molars. Or even grab the bit - hence the old phrase, "_Got the bit in his teeth_"!

Once there, it will go no higher. And at that point, it is NOT stretching the lips painfully.

"_A snaffle does not slide up if you are a good rider and you're riding a horse that's well trained._"

Well, maybe I'm not a good rider. Or Bandit is not well trained. Bandit would tell you "good training" is highly overrated. But...when he stretches his head out at speed (necessary for him to see where he is going), a straight line from his mouth to my hands is going to go parallel to his mouth. A pull on a snaffle will raise it. And Bandit is comfortable like that, assuming he is in the mood for contact - as he usually is at speed. Or even at a relaxed canter - a straight line from the bit to my hands will go parallel to the line of his mouth, and he's content that way:








Nor does every horse feel a need to slow instantly to any tension. Bandit has a lot of miles of racing behind him. Get his blood up and he may not feel the need to slow down just because the monkey on his back wants to!

Not everyone values a "highly trained horse" - not if "highly trained" means the horse has to always respond to light pressure. I really like Bandit and I'd be disappointed if he started slowing at the lightest pressure. Not that it is likely to happen!

"_No one has addressed the fact that the gag slides up and applies force both and and down, which are rather conflicting cues._"

Like a lot of humans, you are judging the bit action like an engineer: Break down the components and compare. Horses are not engineers. No horse thinks, "_I've got a little poll pressure to lower my head (most don't associate poll pressure with lowering squat anyways) and a bit rising in my mouth to say lift my head (and most horses don't think a mouthpiece rising in their mouth means lift their head anyways)...oh golly, I'm confused!_"

Horses respond to the totality of feel. They memorize the totality of what is going on. They lack the linear, straight-line thought required to break things into the components and then try to resolve them. 

Lifting and/or lowering the head in response to cues is something Mia and Bandit and Trooper can't even conceive of - probably because I don't give a rat's rear end where they put their heads. Bandit's head is his responsibility. Not mine. I've never asked him to lift or lower his head, or to break at the poll. All that is HIS job. My job is "_Thatta way, and at this speed!_" I set goals. He determines the means. Which requires a certain amount of training in itself...


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

Well, to better understand the actions of the gag, why don't we take a look at the two sports they're used very commonly in? Eventing and Polo.

First, the polo pony. I google "polo pony" and this was on the very first page of images that pops up, no "abuse-hunting" required. This pony was involved in a libel case, but that's from an untrustworthy source and what's more it was about mis-advertisement, not bits or training level. 










Immediately, you can see the over-rotation of the gag(a standard "two ring gag", one large ring with the mouthpiece attached and two smaller rings on either side, acting as the purchase and half the shank.), as well as the position the horse's head is forced in by the upwards pressure of the bit sliding as far as it can without hitting the molars(again, that distance is really only 1-1.5 inches, which is not very far at all), and applying downward pressure on the poll - shoving the horse's face up and out to attempt to avoid both forces. Her neck is completely inverted, throwing all her weight onto her forelegs even if she were to be in a stride with more contact. Note the use of a martingale - likely to keep her from tossing her head _too high_ and flipping over. You might argue that he's putting more weight on the bit than usual, but his hand really isn't much farther back than a normal riding position nor are the reins really abnormally short. And yet - still the head is thrown high, even without the rider "sitting" to cue for the horse to shift weight back and slow down, and the body is strung out all over the place - a horse can execute this stride with much more grace than this poor horse's single pastern has to hold, as you can see here with this mustang - his head is higher positioned than some horses, yes, but it's stretched out and relaxed, his far hind is much farther under himself than the polo pony's, and there is not nearly as much inversion of the neck and back. 










Meanwhile, here's a polo pony in a more "gathered" stride, with his legs under himself, this time in a sliding gag:










This pony has the same high neck carriage and drooping "hollow" back as the first one, each though you can see the droop in the reins! It's not the snaffle rein either that's causing that amount of lip stretch, as you can clearly see that the snaffle rein is much looser than than the gag rein. The gag reins is applying all of the force, and it's not even all the way to the same level of rotation as the first image, yet there's still that high amount of lip stretch and poor posture. The shoulders also aren't "raised", which would be the only merit of this bit if it actually lived up to the standard - shifting weight onto the hindquarters. But the shoulders are not raised, they are dropped. The horse is leaning into a turn slightly, but for comparison, a horse also with a high headset, and leaning slightly into a turn at a canter:










Search the words "polo pony" and there's a mirage of over-rotated gags, high headsets, inverted movement, poor self carriage, and a great deal of straps, martingales, nosebands, etc all to keep the horse's head down - all while the gag yanks it up and out. I don't call that "needing a sharp turn/fast stop", I call that "I'm going to stick a big bit in my horse's mouth instead of training him". 

Now for eventing, and what do we see on the very second page of images, on a flattering article about how TB's are made for eventing? This amazing image:










This horse is jumping, and to physically jump he must ignore the amount of weight the idiot rider is balancing on his mouth and arch his neck up, otherwise he's not going to clear the jump. As for the mouth... the noseband is keeping it shut so we don't have to see his mouth gaping 3 inches wide and a bit jammed between his teeth. And that bit has the ability to go even tighter - imagine if this was a less angelic-horse that got hot-headed when that much pressure is applied or if he was stubborn and started flipping his head? Or if the rider was adding even more weight on the reins? It would be a disaster. I can't even call that "bit pressure" anymore, that's just pain. 










And then there's this image - a canter. The rider isn't really even applying pressure barely if at all, and still - the horse is inverted and the hindquarters trailing. There's a million images just like this one, and you cannot tell me _all_ these riders have a bad seat or all these horses are poorly trained or that all these horses have naturally that bad of self carriage and _still_ got selected as eventing horses. That is a man-made posture, no horse naturally takes it. And the only similarity I'm seeing is guess what - either a gag, or an idiot rider with a snaffle and hard hands. 

So, based on that evidence, and just scanning the first few pictures that come up on google search for popular events or horses in both sports - no, I'm not seeing and evidence otherwise that what I've already stated. The common factor? A gag and the need for a quick stop/slow down. And no bit should ever be used to force a horse to do something - the horse ought to be taught _how_ to do something, not told by someone's sharp hands. 

A snaffle _can_ cause this action as well, and so can a curb. But _only_ when ridden incorrectly. A gag will create this action no matter what when it's engaged - the mechanics stay the same no matter who's riding it. You ride "correctly", the action is still sliding up the shanks and applying pressure up while also forcing down the poll. You ride like an idiot - same action but more severe. A snaffle, you ride correctly and the horizontal force from the bit is nearly all going backwards(hence why they're so damaging sometimes, I absolutely agree with that), not upwards. If the horse's jaw is level, yeah, all the force would be going backwards. As you can see here, this horse has his face in front of the vertical, the reins have tension, and the horse is moving forward - but it's certainly not moving the lip up very much. As for the curb causing this action - well, you'd have to pull _up_ rather than back like a maniac to ever lift the curb that high I believe, and it would probably be negated by the curb strap long before it reached the level a gag can. 










If you don't touch the bit - sure, ride in a gag all you want. I've seen a mare spook with a gag and nearly go over backwards on her rider because the sliding action + the extreme upwards force was to much for her. That horse gets ridden in a gag every day, and she has the same self carriage and musculature issues as the horses in the photos above. Meanwhile, my mare is ridden not ridden in a gag and does the same exact type of work, with the same fitness, on the same exact terrain - and she doesn't have any of this. I don't claim to be an amazing rider by any means, so if I am able to keep my horse fit and happy and with better self carriage than the horse that gets pumped fulls of supplements and does the same exact thing I do, maybe even more, and _still_ has bad posture and an upside-down neck from having her head up and the face out all the time(with a rider with a better seat than I) - yeah, I call that a non-coincidence.

As for understanding pressure and yielding to said pressure - any riding horse must understand and comprehend yielding to pressure somewhat, otherwise they would not be riding horses as you would not be able to do more than sit there and hang on for dear life. Horses are prey animals - their instinct is to move away from pressure. The only reason they typically don't is because either they do not know how or they do not respect you as a partner and teacher. Linear thought has nothing to do with it. A dog doesn't need linear thought to fetch a ball, does it? Nor does a sheepdog to perform a complex maneuver with the guidance of the shepherd. Nor does a dolphin to rescue a human. Horses learn, yes. And they are taught as one of the very basic principles of horsemanship to yield to pressure - otherwise, you would not be able to even lead your horse. They certainly do not need linear thought to understand that, so yes, when they feel poll pressure a trained horse would naturally move away from it. Natural headset and trained headset also are not as different as one might think when done correctly - a trained or forced headset is not good for the horse _unless_ it is based on the horse's own natural headset. Hence why, inverting the neck and back is not good. 

So, I still see no evidence that a gag _will not_ cause the conflicting cues of up vs. down, nor that it cannot cause much more harm than another bit can with more ease, or that it's good for "softness".


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

@equinest "So, I still see no evidence that a gag will not cause the conflicting cues of up vs. down, nor that it cannot cause much more harm than another bit can with more ease, or that it's good for "softness"."

I answered this back up in post 48. And I went through the physics of it.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@lostastirrup

That's exactly part of my point, however. The gag _does_ have conflicting cues when it reaches the point it cannot slide anymore, because by now if the rider is still pulling there is nowhere for the mouthpiece to go and it rotates even more, applying more poll pressure. As the bridle is not a perfect force-splitting machine, no, of course it's not an even pressure. 

Which is why it's entirely false to say the gag works off poll pressure, because to get a great deal of poll pressure you must first fully engage the sliding part of the bit. Sliding gags(running gag, etc) are much nastier than a shanked gag in this way because the reins do directly apply pressure on the poll, and the bit slides through and up. What's more, I can hardly imagine that a rope in non-existent of friction, so there's not as quick of a release as there might be in say a "Wonder Bit". A sliding gag has a despicable amount of force that it can apply, despite not really being "shanked", the ring when rotated acts as a shank. 

So no, the bit does not apply pressure evenly. The bit must first slide a good deal up before engaging the poll, which I explained in my previous posts, and _then_ it is squeezing the head between the poll and lips. Unfortunately - it's extremely easy to get a gag to rotate that much. Since the bit doesn't act on the tongue/bars as much as many people would probably prefer, it's often got to rotate that much just to get a hot-headed horse to slow down. If a horse can run with a snaffle yanking his mouth off and still resist it, I think the same horse will likely very easily "evade" the gag's cues by raising the head, and inverting the neck. And then we're back to square one, because now he's in a very poor position indeed, and to get his head down the rider is likely going to pull _more_, because riding inverted naturally is not a very balanced manner of going. 

The gag works off the sliding mechanism of the lip, until it is stopped and then it must engage the poll and pull up at the same time. As many gags don't have very much slide, that means it traps the head between the mouth and poll very quickly. Then you might say that a bit with more slide is therefore kinder - but at the point at which the mouthpiece can go no further on a larger gag, it's horrendously high enough that it is in no way kind. The horse wants to avoid the pressure to the face, so yeah, he's going to lift his head. Up, inverted, and poorly. You cannot get good self carriage from holding a horse's head up by force, nor balance.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"First, the polo pony. I google "polo pony" and this was on the very first page of images that pops up..."

Well, that pretty much says it all.

"Now for eventing, and what do we see on the very second page of images...This horse is jumping, and to physically jump he must ignore the amount of weight the idiot rider is balancing on his mouth and arch his neck up..."

Again, irrefutable evidence. < / sarcasm >

"They certainly do not need linear thought to understand that, so yes, when they feel poll pressure a trained horse would naturally move away from it...."

A TRAINED horse will respond as trained. An untrained horse will respond naturally, which is likely to resist the pressure on the poll. But apart from that...

Horses do NOT break things down into individual components, analyze those components, and the try to balance them out. HUMANS think that way. Horses - based on my limited but valid experiences teaching a few about how to respond to curb bits, simply think in terms of "What gives me release? And do I care?"

As a rule, they want "release". And they try different ways to get it until they DO get it, and then they remember HOW they got it and try that answer again. If it proves to be the right answer a bunch of times, they stick it in long-term memory, which for a horse means a lifetime.

However, they may also CHOOSE to ignore it. When I first put a Tom Thumb bit on Bandit, we paused and I let him eat some grass. Then I tried to pull his head up. But he's a desert horse and didn't WANT to stop grabbing grass, so I ended up pulling far harder than I've ever pulled while riding. He then lifted his head to his normal high position, sighed, and we continued on the ride with no fuss, bother or concern.

What I learned was that it couldn't have been hurting him very much. He simply preferred eating more grass to yielding to the pressure, which was much greater than I've ever used with him riding. HIS CHOICE. That has been repeated with many bits over the last 4 years. More pressure than I ever use riding is not always enough for him to pass up one more chomp of grass. So the idea that horses are in great pain from anything I do doesn't cut the mustard.

However, Bandit WILL raise his head and shake it if there is some grass stuck on the bit. He can't get release from the grass unless I stop, dismount, drop his bit and clean it off (along with lecturing him on being a glutton). What can I say? He has trained me well...

I find this advice on stargazing accurate:



> Chamberlin on Stargazing
> Riding and Schooling Horses​
> One rule which is unchanging in regard to the action of the rider's hands, but not in regard to their position, is as follows: *Whenever the horse places his head in a position other than the correct one, the hands are moved to where they can increase tension on the bit and make his mouth uncomfortable.* In these cases, they must be so placed that the horse cannot possible escape the bit's tension for a fraction of a second, until the rider permits it. When he ultimately seeks to avoid discomfort by putting his head in the correct position - *and then only* - the hands must soften immediately...In the first instances, it is better to let the reins go slack when rewarding the horse...
> 
> ...


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Photo one: I don't know the rider, horse, or what else what happening at that moment.

Photo two: Feral horse. I disagree that he is collected. Horses do that naturally. 

Photo three: I don't see loose reins. The rider is "checking" the horse to make a shot. Horse is collected. And coming down from a hard gallop.

Photo four: I don't know that person or horse.

Photo five: Horse is in a gallop. Collected.

My best recommendation is for one to not use a gag, if they can't. We horsemen have many tools available to us and our horses.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@boots

None of these horses are anywhere _near_ collection. Collection is the action of shortening the distance between the horse's "seatbones" and the base of the neck, which allows the horse to then elevate the forehand, lift the withers, reach farther under itself, and move lightly and balanced. None of these horses are displaying any form of collection - self carriage is not the same thing as collection. The mustang and the dressage horse are both displaying good self carriage, not collection. The polo ponies and eventing horses are displaying poor self carriage brought on by their high headset and inverted posture. 
@bsms

The horse will still naturally move away from pressure, as he is a prey animal. They don't "fight" unless they have no other way to combat pressure. Hence why constant harsh pressure on the bit will often cause a horse to flip his head around, stick his face out or up or both, or drop his head into the dirt. Yes, you teach him to respond to pressure correctly, that's the whole point of a "release" but a horse will avoid or yield to pressure naturally. 

I've never said that those images are irrefutable evidence, but considering they're extraordinarily easily found and there's a million other images just like them when you look up either things - I'd say they're pretty good evidence, yes. Watch Olympic jumping as well and you can see riders yanking their horse's heads up to an inverted position with a big gag as well. Watch eventing videos, and again you can see if very frequently. Watch polo, it's everywhere. It's not a "singular or isolated event" or a rare occurrence - it's a very frequent occurrence. Watch a barrel horse getting slowed down from a run, or rated at a turn. Again, very common. I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air, it happens very often and very commonly. And we've already established that a "hollow" and high-headed, inverted frame as this is not good for a horse. 7 out of 10 times you see this - it's in a gag, or a rider with heavy hand and a curb/snaffle. So yes, I again call that pretty good evidence that a gag will very easily cause this posture. The horse's head is forced up - but the shoulders do not follow, bringing about the inverted posture.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

You are criticizing a type of bit many have found useful and helpful based on Internet pictures.

"_Hence why constant harsh pressure on the bit..._"

Ummm....no kidding? My horse won't move well if I ride with "_constant harsh pressure on the bit_"? When I used a gag bit with Mia, I didn't use "_constant harsh pressure on the bit_". I just ordered a "wonder bit" - should arrive tomorrow - and I'll try it with Bandit. But not with "_constant harsh pressure on the bit_". And riding with a snaffle used with "_constant harsh pressure on the bit_" will cause problems as well. In fact - having done it myself, unfortunately - riding with constant, too hard pressure on a bitless bridle will cause problems!

"_7 out of 10 times you see this - it's in a gag, or a rider with heavy hand and a curb/snaffle._"

Let me rephrase that for you: "_9 times out of 10, it's with a rider with heavy hands_"?

I can make any horse ride inverted with the gentlest bit you can imagine. Or ride him with a flowing back while riding with a supposedly harsh bit. IT'S THE HANDS!


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

The Equinest said:


> @lostastirrup
> 
> That's exactly part of my point, however. The gag _does_ have conflicting cues when it reaches the point it cannot slide anymore, because by now if the rider is still pulling there is nowhere for the mouthpiece to go and it rotates even more, applying more poll pressure. As the bridle is not a perfect force-splitting machine, no, of course it's not an even pressure.
> 
> ...



There's an easy solution to this and it's "be kind with your hands" the photo posted by phantomhorse with the gag engaged, clearing checking back on the horse, the gag has gone about half as far as it can go. And that's enough for most horses. If youre slamming it back to the teeth. No. That's not not an appropriate use. No one will argue with you on that one. 

I've ridden with a gag, a three ring elevator on a low setting, and for heavy horses on the forehand that you're educating off the contact to perform a work that requires them to back off the bit but also maintain direct rein turning. I would recommend it to a soft handed rider with a heavy horse. They don't go from one extreme to another. They're too lazy. They go far enough for relief and no farther. If it's causing your horse to flip over and toss it's head its being used incorrectly and the rider has created problems that need fixing- and probably the gag is not going to be a helpful tool. 

As for the friction of release in the gag. Unless you're using putty and glue as your bit rings and cord,your release is really quick. It's one of the benefits. The horse hits the bit it slides up and the moment the horse backs off of it it goes back to the neutral non effectual position. This is assuming that the rider is not a grabby Gabby and is educated on how to use the bit appropriately. 


As for the pictures you posted, I for one think that bay pinto in the show jumping phase is riding stupendously. There is not a good reason to ask a horse to put it's head down while jumping. They kinda like seeing the jumps. He's reaching under deeply with the hind end, the forehand is up (more than I'd expect by a long mile for a cob). He's not trailing behind at all. He looks good. Not everything has to go on the bit at all times. There is more than one good way to skin a cat. I can't speak to the polo I'm not a fan of it and they way they tack the horses. The water jump over a corner. The rider is actually not set against the reins. She's slipped them long and looks to be having been sitting back in a defensive seat before the fence. Is she pulling on the horse? Yeah. She is. No she's not giving him a perfect auto release. But if you've ridden an eventer most will drag you to the fence and fling themselves over it.
They're hella brave and very keen. Having to check back over a fence while riding a complex question is not out of the realms of possibility.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

I don't think they need their heads down, but they don't need them at maximum or near maximum elevation. That's straining the C2 and C1 vertebrae quite a bit, and isn't a good position for a horse to be in. The pinto is by no means horribly moving, but he's certainly not moving as well as he could be if his head were in a more natural position and his shoulders more elevated. Conformation plays into part of it, cobs don't generally have the most uphill conformation at times, but he absolutely could be using his body more efficiently.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

​


The Equinest said:


> I don't think they need their heads down, but they don't need them at maximum or near maximum elevation. That's straining the C2 and C1 vertebrae quite a bit, and isn't a good position for a horse to be in. The pinto is by no means horribly moving, but he's certainly not moving as well as he could be if his head were in a more natural position and his shoulders more elevated. Conformation plays into part of it, cobs don't generally have the most uphill conformation at times, but he absolutely could be using his body more efficiently.



So the bit is wrong overall because the horse COULD be using himself better? Even if he's giving a good effort given his conformation. And appears to be traveling in good balance towards a fence he's probably using that headset to see? I don't buy it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Nothing special about "elevated shoulders". It takes energy to elevate the withers, and it is a waste of energy if the goal is to cover ground efficiently. For efficient movement, you move as little in the vertical as possible. The pinto is not inverted.

The front end naturally carries more weight and is well adapted to do so. The front legs are not attached to the spine. The thoracic sling (muscle) supports the front of the horse and provides a shock absorber not present on the rear.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

This reminds me of the helmet vs. no-helmet threads. Everyone can state their view and their reasons for wearing or not wearing a helmet. Or using or not using a gag-bit on their horse. And that is GREAT, because that is how we learn and evaluate what we are doing. Maybe someone will bring up a point that will cause us to reconsider our stance or try something new.


What I don't understand is why it has to be all or nothing. If someone says "I will always wear a helmet" or "I will never use a gag bit," can't we also except that others will never wear a helmet or think a gag bit is just fine? Nobody is making anyone convert, just stating our opinions and experiences. :smile:


I can say I will always wear a helmet without forcing my views onto my friends. And you can say you will never use a gag bit but that doesn't mean everyone who does use one is wrong. Just do what you think is right for you and your horse. :Angel:


I love these sorts of discussions as long as we don't all get too black and white. Life is shades of grey.


PS. I find the concept of collection fascinating, not because I think it is a bad thing to achieve.......I think it looks and feels great. But how do WE, as humans, really know what is best for the horse? They know their body better than we do, and there are probably factors we haven't even considered that goes into how a horse carries itself. I personally think collection is for the rider. I'm not 100% convinced it is for the horse. It's kind of bold of us to say we know how the horse should carry itself better than it does. Even if a horse isn't the brightest animal, it knows how it's own body feels and what is comfortable and what it painful for it.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Reading through all the posts and a lot of good ones throughout.

Collection has nothing to do with the appearance of the head and neck. Some breeds like Morgans are naturally collected. The most simple definition is that the horse is driving with the hind end rather than pulling on the front. This is desirable because it is where a horse is the most athletic. When you watch a Level 4 Reiner doing a pattern they are collected nearly 100% of the time with the neck nearly level with the back and head in a relaxed position. 

I could probably take a really good non-Pro horse to some shows in other disciplines and people wouldn't think we even knew what collection means because of what they think it looks like. 

Collection can be done on a loose rein in a rope hackamore if the horse is built for it. Everything else is the natural build and athletic gifts of the horse, the sport, the tack, style of riding, skill of rider, opinion etc


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jgnmoose said:


> ...The most simple definition is that the horse is driving with the hind end rather than pulling on the front. This is desirable because it is where a horse is the most athletic...


From Racinet:



> When the horse tries to move at high speed without allowing for the possibility of sudden stopping, the backward resistance is limited to the amount of energy needed to prevent the horse from falling forward and down, i.e., from tripping. But, if the horse, because of the possibility of some unforeseen event, mores fearfully or cautiously (i.e., when he takes into account the need for suddenly stopping or for preventing a fall), then his mind will literally be torn between the two contradictory necessities. Nowhere other than in the High School movement called the "passage" is the phenomenon of "inhibited thrust" more obvious: while the thrust of the hind legs remains powerful, it is counteracted by an equally powerful hesitancy. And it is this combination which makes all the charm of this movement...
> 
> ...horses in the wilderness will assume a collected posture, characterized by a constant "coiling under" of the pelvis and a high head carriage...


If collection was only pushing from the rear, without a lifting of the withers, then race horses would be collected. The lifting of the withers is what makes it such hard work, particularly with a rider weighing the back down. As best I can tell, it doesn't help the horse TURN faster. It helps the horse turn faster WHILE staying completely vertical. A horse who wants to turn fast without collecting will just lean into the turn.

I'm not arguing collection is bad, just that it is not the definition of good movement.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Personally I don't think anyone has changed their stance on this issue, but I do appreciate the thread has not turned to rudeness. 

I have learnt some more about mechanics of the gag bit, so has been useful. I'm not saying I plan to use one, since my horse goes fine in a snaffle or a sidepull. 

Chivas just basically likes to chomp on the bit when he is stressed, so if anyone comes up with a equine pacifier that I can use bitless so he can drink easier from creeks on trails, I'm ready to buy


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Watch some Reined Cow Horse, especially the fence work. If the horse dive bombed into the fence to stop the cow without being light in the front and driving from the hind they would lose the cow every time. 

Because they can pick up the front end while driving out of it they can stick it on a cow and even in 180 degree turns.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

Okay, let's go back to the initial standing point to why I wanted to discuss this, because we're getting a bit sidetracked on a number of things from training methods to equine psychology(not that those topics aren't important, they're just not what I was intending to discuss and they're not necessarily connected in all ways to the topic). Also, I am sorry if I come off short on some of these posts, it's a side effect of checking these either late at night or in-between other things when I have time. 

1.) The gag's action. We've established gags are used to "lift the head" by most riders. Which while you can lift the face with a gag, you cannot lift the forehand, which is the purpose of lifting the head. Lifting the head alone does nothing for the horse balance wise or agility wise, nor will it make it easier for him to execute his task. You cannot ride the face, as the body will not always follow. It's a basic torque equation - the legs support the horse. Apply force on one end, and there must be another force pushing down on the fulcrum(the withers in this case). That is the exact opposite response most people desire when trying to lift the head - they want to lift the forehand as well. But the gag doesn't do that, because lifting the forehand does not come from lifting the head. When you lift the head to such a high height, you push down the base of the neck because the weight of the head/neck is pushing downwards on the withers/base of neck now. A horse with good self carriage arches the neck up and lifts the base of the neck in doing so. To raise the head to maximum or near-maximum elevation in the manner that I've shown previously, you must engage the muscles of the topline which contracts the topline, and sends the hindquarters trailing out behind, inhibiting their ability to drive. 

2.) So, lifting the head applies a force upwards, and then another force downwards on the wither. Inverted posture - the withers are pushed down while the head is forced up. Google polo ponies - whether it's good evidence or not that's your choice to decide but every image of them with a high head has a quite inverted posture. And they're 9 out of 10 times ridden in gags. Not irrefutable evidence - but in the absence of an actual scientific study I think it's a good starting point for speculation. 

3.) Inverted posture is bad. We've established that, I don't think we need to go over it again. 

4.) Yes, I'm using internet photos as evidence. There are no studies on the mechanics of snaffle bits either and yet we assume to have a pretty good understanding of them as well, proven by internet photos. And it's not as if I'm digging, either. Look up polo or eventing yourself and see what I've seen. If I were scouring for the 3 or 4 bad photos with gags out there that would be one thing - but I'm not. 

5.) My point is this - I've shown what I believe is enough evidence to support there being a possibility that gags cause poor posture. Any bit _can_ cause this, but it seems to me that based on the poor mechanics of a gag that only work to pull the head up and not anything else, that a gag is rather well-made to cause these issues over another type of bit. Soft hands will not fix that - some horses can be ridden with no contact, but in the sports where gags are most commonly used(barrel racing, polo, eventing, jumping), constant contact is often used. A jumper doesn't let his horse run with a loose rein between jumps any more than a polo pony is let run on loose rein. These horses do not have a riding style that allows them to ride with no contact - they receive a constant amount of it. They have their heads forced up, and their withers pushed down, putting them in an inverted position with a tense neck and back, not a supple or collected back whatsoever. 

You say that you'd hesitate to rule out a whole class of bits - but if I were to come to you with a new line of bits with nice spiked chain link as a mouthpiece, would you not hesitate to also rule out a whole class of bits? That is an obvious cruelty machine. If I were to come to you instead with a bit with smooth, well made shanks but a port so high it would hit the palate if you pulled it back just slightly(which these bits do exist, and are quite common), would you also rule out a whole class of bits knowing you understood how sensitive and easily harmed the horse's palate is? Then why could I not also rule out a class of bits called gags based on reasonable evidence that they can cause poor, inverted posture and that they have confusing and painful cues to the horse? A rider might argue that if one rode in a loose rein with that palate-stabbing bit you'd be fine because it would never be engaged that much, but not all horses ride in loose reins, do they? Nor to most people when their horse is green, or spooked, or jittery, or hot-headed. A rider may claim he does not apply enough pressure to the mouthpiece to slide it up that far, but if you don't need the slide and high-head action, why use the bit? And if your horse is spooky, or jittery, or hot-headed, can you still ride with loose reins? No. I don't believe you can many times. And if your horse is being a stubborn creature as they most certainly can be, and you are trying to hold him back or in or slow, can you not quite easily force his head up into that unnatural position? Yes. You quite easily can. 

I do not think that people who ride in gags are evil, or bad riders, or that they want to hurt their horse. But I do think that there's a very good possibility with quite enough reasonable, logical evidence that gags _can_ cause quite a few very harmful issues for a horse. Soft hands are only as soft as the bit. Soft hands and a hard bit are still soft hands and a hard bit, only the degree of harshness is changed from very hard to less hard. Hard hands and a soft bit do not equal up, they create hard hands and hard bit. A bit is not as bad as the hands that hold it - no matter who holds the reins, a spiked medieval war bit is still a spiked medieval war bit in a horse's mouth. A snaffle still has snaffle action and a curb still has curb action, while a gag most definitely does have gag action. If you can ride with a loose rein, that's great. But many, many horses cannot and many of those horses are ridden in gags. And many of the horses ridden in gags such as that have poor posture and poor communication with the rider. Polo is one of the sports that uses gags the most, and just by scanning the first few rows you come up with many horses that have poor self carriage with high heads/etc. And they're nearly always ridden in a gag. Just because we might not like the sport doesn't mean we should ignore it - the gag action is the same whether it's polo or eventing. The same goes for the video on a sliding gag I linked a while back - just because you might not like the person making it doesn't mean the action of the bit isn't true. 

So far, no one has yet to give me any evidence that a gag is _not_ predisposed to cause poor posture when ridden with contact. Any bit can do it, yes. But the gag is specifically made to lift the face and only the face, which causes the inverted posture, and therefore I do think there's a very good possibility it's a harmful bit. 
@trailhorserider

Collection is very interesting, especially when you look at it in relation to the horse carrying our weight on their backs. I personally would like to do a study on it someday and take some radiographs of collected vs. non-collected horses, and look at their spine specifically to compare it to the normal resting and the inverted position of poor self-carriage. I do think, however, as a species of higher intelligence than the horse and with a very good understanding of physics, biochemistry, etc, we can make decent judgement on what is good for a horse and what is bad. Collection is a natural movement that is accentuated, in my view. A horse naturally carries himself with good self carriage - collection is based on that good self carriage. Which is part of the reason why animals ridden in too-high headsets in dressage never achieve actual upper levels and sometimes not even the lower levels of collection. You cannot get a natural based movement from a non-natural frame, after all. 

I don't think _all_ horses necessarily need true collection or should travel collected all the time - but a horse needs good self carriage or you will cause damage to the horse's joints, back, and muscles while riding. Good self carriage ties into collection very much, which is why true collection can be easily told from false collection when you look at it on a "natural movement" scale. True collection raises the withers, allows the horse to drive under with the hindquarters, and "rounds" the back, as well as lifting the base of the neck. Collection is very, very helpful for complex movements, and I do think that all horses should be bred with conformation that would at least _allow_ them to perform some level of collection in mind, but the everyday riding horse needs proper self carriage rather than collection. A sport horse would benefit from a level of collection while riding, as their tasks are much harder than the regular riding horse, and the strengthening of the body it takes to maintain and achieve a level of collection would aid them very much, as well as the ability to carry themselves more balanced by using a level of collection in work.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> ...enough evidence to support there being a possibility that gags cause poor posture. Any bit _can_ cause this, but it seems to me that based on the poor mechanics of a gag that only work to pull the head up and not anything else, that a gag is rather well-made to cause these issues over another type of bit. Soft hands will not fix that...
> 
> ...Then why could I not also rule out a class of bits called gags based on reasonable evidence that they can cause poor, inverted posture and that they have confusing and painful cues to the horse?...with quite enough reasonable, logical evidence that gags _can_ cause quite a few very harmful issues for a horse...
> 
> ...


Multiple points of disagreement.

1 - "mechanics of a gag that only work to pull the head up and not anything else"

That is simply factually incorrect. Gags do NOT only work to pull the head up. I hope to try Bandit in his new gag bit this afternoon. Based on playing with it in hand, I doubt he'll pull his head any higher than with a snaffle or a curb. The actual gag action will only raise the mouthpiece about an inch. 








Once the bit rotates 90 degrees, the gag actions stops - both because the mouthpiece hits the end and because the shanks will then be pointing back at the rider's hands - and any further pull will not rotate anything. I don't think - and I'll look in his mouth in a couple hours - that it will raise it enough to reach his molars. 

So why am I trying it? Because the rotation of the shanks, in common with a curb bit, will give a signal to Bandit. He'll know from the rotation what I am about to ask. It will also dampen any hand movement on my part since I'll need to move my hand 2.5-3 inches to get an inch of movement in the mouth. That is what gives it leverage, but it also means the mouthpiece will move less than my hand. I think I have pretty steady hands, but a bit that allows greater stability MIGHT make my horse happier.

2 - "cause poor, inverted posture"

Again, just no. POOR USE of a gag can cause that. No release can cause that. And both of those will cause the same thing with a snaffle, curb or bitless bridle!

In western riding, or along a trail or (I assume) in an endurance race, the rider does not maintain constant contact. And a rider can be light with a gag or curb even WITH constant contact. It really isn't that hard. I could put a rope bitless bridle on any horse and get the horse to raise its head (or buck). Or not. It isn't the tool, it is how the tool is used.

3 - "any evidence"

Actually, I've cited my experience and a number of much more experienced riders have cited theirs. Your refusing to believe them or me is not the same as "no one has yet to give me any evidence"!

4 - "collection is based on that good self carriage"

Again, no it is not. Collection is not based on "good self carriage". YOU define good self-carriage as collection, and then say collection is based on it.

When Bandit was doing relay races, he did NOT need to lift his withers. That would be a total waste of energy. Nor would reaching under himself and raising his withers help him in the desert:

















Collection is not wrong. Those who enjoy it are welcome to work with their horse to get it. But it has zero to do with a horse's longevity. 800 lb Bandit used to run 10-15 mile legs with as much as 300 lbs on his back. Did it mean he braced like an I-beam? Yep! Did it cause an injury? Nope. It just took him a long time to accept that bracing was no longer needed. I don't WANT a braced back. It is definitely a sign something is wrong. Let's admit 800 lb horses shouldn't be hauling 300 lbs around at a gallop! But they can, and can do so without injury. 

There is no rounding up with collection. It doesn't create an arch. It increases the peak impact forces on the horse's front feet and legs. It uses a lot of energy. It is hard work for the horse. And all of that is fine for a dressage competition. But 13 hand BLM mustang Cowboy has never "collected" in his life and he's doing fine:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

OK, first ride with Bandit in a gag bit is done. It was more interesting than I expected. Between school, weather and family issues, I've only ridden him a couple of times in the last couple of months. My daughter is home on leave from the military. We walked Trooper and Bandit out in the desert, on lead lines, yesterday - and Bandit was TENSE. For some reason, I wasn't expecting him to be tense today...

Played a little with the bit from the ground. I couldn't get it to go very high in his mouth. The corners of his lips are uncommonly low. I adjusted to get the mouthpiece off his canines. Pulling didn't get it to rotate very far at all:








With both reins pulled, it didn't rotate to the stop. Part way there, the gag action ended and it simply pulled like an O-ring snaffle. But the sun was setting, so I mounted up. We did half a lap and then I let him put his head down, letting him eat while the "Booma rein" prevented my reins from sliding off his neck, as in this picture from a month ago:

















At that point, something spooked him. Hard. He leaped and spun and headed toward the corral. That is SOOOOO not what I wanted to experience! The Booma Rein thing got an ops check. It took me 2-3 strides to get hold of the reins and get the slack out, then 2-3 strides to stop him. I was NOT planning on his first stop in a gag bit being like that!

Bandit doesn't get wound up in an arena often. When he does, it takes 20+ minutes to calm him down. That was true today. He was...well, let's just say more "athletic" today than normal! We have a 10-12 foot deep gully that runs by the west and northwest side of the arena. Wild animals use it to cross the neighborhood. Something in that direction had him on full alert. I went to one-handed riding. We did a few sideways squirts. I was trying what I called the "Grandpa Bear" stirrup length setting, to contrast it to the "Baby Bear", "Momma Bear" and "Poppa bear" lengths. Once I got him settled enough to dismount, "Grandpa Bear" went back to "Poppa Bear". Grandpa Bear was simply too hard to ride going sideways rapidly.

As he started to settle, I gave him more chances to eat some grass. At one point, he snagged a piece that included a 4' long Bermuda runner, and we did a few laps with him sucking up the Bermuda runner like a kid eating spaghetti. With time, we worked our way to the northwest. After 30 minutes, he stopped acting nervous. We quit at 40 minutes with the sun well below the horizon.

Now...how did the gag bit work? 90% like his O-ring snaffle. There were two small tendencies, small enough that I can't be certain they were real:

1 - He tended to tip his nose more to the outside, in brief movements, while neck reining in a turn. That could have been nervousness, or it could have been the shank was giving more twisting movement to the bit than one gets with an O-ring. It wasn't dramatic and by the end of ride it may have gone away.

2 - His head tended to be LOWER. Not higher. The gag was not causing him to raise his head. If anything, he carried it lower than I expected given his nerves. By the end of ride, his headset was lower than normal (based on 4.5 years of riding him).

I wasn't using a lot of contact. I'd have LIKED to use almost none at all, but he was too nervous for that. But if anything, he worked lower and got lower faster with the gag than I would have expected him to do in his Billy Allen or O-ring.

This picture is of a one-rein pull:








I checked. It was still well below his molars. Realize his starting point was with the bit adjusted so it couldn't get closer than 1/2" to his canines. [Note: resting untouched 0.75-1.0 inch above] With his lips hanging so low, I don't want bits any higher than absolutely needed. So the results I got are NOT comparable to someone who uses a noseband to keep the bit high in the mouth, or to someone who adjusts the bit high to begin with. If someone rides like this, they may see different results:








I plan to try Bandit some more in the gag. Today was not a fair introduction for him but it certainly was not bad. He got calmer and softer the entire ride and was starting to ride nicely at the end. His tension wasn't the bit. We got off to a bad start but the reins were extremely loose - halfway down his neck slack - when he spooked. I'm certain it felt different to him than the O-ring or Billy Allen curb. But he wasn't afraid of the bit. He mostly understood it. He neck reined ok at the beginning and got better with practice. He did NOT raise his head. On the contrary, he worked lower and got there faster with the gag bit. I think.

PS: I bought a second Booma Rein for use with Trooper. I think I like it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Something I noticed in this picture that I think is worth mentioning:








Notice the mouthpiece is almost directly under the end of the bridle. It isn't physically possible to get the mouthpiece any higher. And at that point, it is still well below his molars. I peeked inside to look.

I don't care how may YouTubers put a bit on their arm and say, "_Look at this!_" The evidence I care about is what I can replicate when the bit is in my horse's mouth. Bits tend to sag a bit due to their weight during a canter or trot. 0.75-1.0 inches is far enough above the canines to prevent that sagging movement from contacting his teeth. And far enough below his molars that I don't know how I could get the bit to hit them.

Of course, if someone starts with the bit almost against the molars, their results would be very different. But adjusted like this...I just don't see how any harm is going to happen. Even a ham-fist would have trouble hitting his molars. And his lips are NOT stretched painfully.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Thank you for the report bsms! Very interesting! 

I rode my mare today too but in her regular grazing bit type curb. She was very "hot" because she hasn't been out much lately and the weather is cold up here in northern Arizona. Once I've ridden her more regularly and she's not as hyper, I might try out the gag I have just to see how she responds. I don't think I'll like it because the time I tried it before (different horse) it felt very "spongy" to me. But it would be interesting to see how my current horse responds. She is a gaited horse who is prone to being barn sour. So I want to try it when she's relaxed because if she doesn't like it, or I have no brakes, I don't want to be 3 miles from home on a horse that wants to :gallop:!
Any thoughts on putting a curb chain on something like a wonder bit? I know that changes the dynamics a bit, but maybe not for the worst? It would limit the amount of poll pressure I would think, and make it function more like a regular curb. :think:

I really like discussions like this.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't see how a curb strap would help. For one thing, it would catch on the big ring. It also would stop the rotation before the gag was actually working. I think it would then end up being much like a Tom Thumb bit - which I don't mind, myself, but which I think is inferior to a Billy Allen.

I don't think there IS much poll pressure. I forgot to check today. But this gag doesn't raise the bit very high. I'll check on the next ride but I think - at least where I place the bit - that the entire "gag" action is overrated. It just doesn't seem to do much, really. But I've only got one ride on it. I may change my mind after a dozen.

And one reason some people use a gag instead of a curb is that some horses feel trapped - squeezed - in a curb. Mine don't care but I guess some really dislike that feeling.

"_it felt very "spongy" to me_". 

It kind of felt that way to me, too. I move my hand more than the bit moves and it feels less precise than an O-ring. But that dampening, almost, of my hand may make it a gentler bit for Bandit. I think I have pretty good hands for my experience and riding proficiency, but I'm not God's gift to horses! In so many things, the LESS I do to my horse, the more successful he seems to be.

But yeah, now that you mention it, spongy seems like a good description.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> I don't see how a curb strap would help. For one thing, it would catch on the big ring. It also would stop the rotation before the gag was actually working. I think it would then end up being much like a Tom Thumb bit - which I don't mind, myself, but which I think is inferior to a Billy Allen.
> 
> I don't think there IS much poll pressure. I forgot to check today. But this gag doesn't raise the bit very high. I'll check on the next ride but I think - at least where I place the bit - that the entire "gag" action is overrated. It just doesn't seem to do much, really. But I've only got one ride on it. I may change my mind after a dozen.
> 
> ...



Well, I'm not God's gift to horses either. But maybe they are His gift to us. :Angel:

I try to ride on a draped rein, but sometimes when you have a hyper horse turned for home, the best you can do is hope to get her to walk more than trot, lol! She might actually like the spongy feel. We'll see. 

I am the kind of person that likes trying out different tack just to see how it works.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> I don't think there IS much poll pressure. I forgot to check today. But this gag doesn't raise the bit very high. I'll check on the next ride but I think - at least where I place the bit - that the entire "gag" action is overrated. It just doesn't seem to do much, really. But I've only got one ride on it. I may change my mind after a dozen.



If there isn't much in the way of poll pressure (and I'm not even sure poll pressure is something we want?) then it isn't much different than an O-ring snaffle. But there has to be more going on that just an O-ring snaffle with big, funny shanks. I guess that's why I want to stick a curb chain on it. :tongue:


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@bsms

I explicitly said that _any_ bit can cause poor posture. Nearly every person I've ever spoken too about gags has told me how they use them to 'lift the shoulders' or the head. So yes - I'd say that they most certainly do that, otherwise people wouldn't use them to do so and claim they do it so wonderfully. 

What's more, the mouthpiece sliding applies pressure on the lips. Which again - causes the horse to lift his head. Not all horses will respond the same, that's obvious. I've gotten a hold of a 3-ring gag that I'm going to try on my own mare and test the mechanics of. I'll agree, testing bits on arms isn't much good except for testing pinchy-ness or abrasion. But given the fact that nearly every person I've spoken too has claim to use a gag to lift the head/shoulders - yes, I'd say there's a reason why they use this specific bit to do so. 

I also never defined collection as self carriage - I said collection is _based_ on good self carriage. Collection is an emphasis of natural movements - if it were a man-made movement we'd be seeing the detrimental effects of it everywhere just like we do rolkur or anything else such as that, like the big lick. You cannot get an animal to benefit from a movement or posture that entirely man-made - it must have some natural elements within it. Collection is an emphasis of good self-carriage, because good self carriage is the very beginnings of collection. Anyone who rides classical dressage will know that self carriage and collection are pieces of each other and one is needed for the other to happen. Never did I say that collection = good self carriage nor the other way around, but they are most certainly tied together. It is not _my_ personalized definition whatsoever. One of the first things you must teach a dressage horse is self carriage if he does not have it already - only then can you move on. 

Also, one of points was not about the absence of rein tension but the presence of it. If you ride in a bit without touching the reins, you can even make the world's most pinchy bit decent. Of course you can! The point was however, people often do not ride in gags without rein tension. So riding without it and then saying it's a good bit or that it doesn't do these things isn't a valid testing point. My mare normally rides with a rather elevated to medium elevated headset when we're working, but out on pleasure rides when I let her down on a completely loose rein or if we're working on leg yielding, she drops her head lower than usual as well. Like I said, I'm going to put her in a 3-ring gag and take some pictures to get another test of it, also because like you said, the corners of his lips are low. It might be better to get some with normal mouth anatomy as well as with rein tension. I might bring a spring scale out as well if I can find mine to measure how much force I'm applying on the reins each time for comparison. I also think that the new fad of "bit seats" says quite a bit about how "quiet" or "soft" many modern rider's hands are... combine that with any bit, but _especially_ a bit made to slide up and that's a disaster. A bit might sag, yes, but it's only the center. The edges(which are the parts acting on the lip) can't sag at all. I'm interested to see how my mare reacts to it, because she's only either given me two reactions to bits - either traveling nicely, with a medium headset, or dropping her face in the dirt to avoid it. She's also the standard "hot headed" girl, and can get very pushy and mouthy when she feels like it, so I'd be interested to see exactly what that will do to her headset in a gag. I may ride with a snaffle rein + a curb rein just in case.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

People make false claims about bits all the time. They will claim a Baucher creates poll pressure. They claim curb bits do. The first is totally false and the second is mostly false. Either way, I saw zero sign with Bandit. No lifting shoulder. No lifting head. If anything, the reverse. I'm reporting what I'm seeing.

I had to google to find what a "Bit seat" is. Sounds barbaric. If someone has to alter their horse's teeth to protect it from their hands and bit, they ought to have their own teeth pulled. Without anesthesia. Personal opinion. If someone has tried it and found it helpful, perhaps they could start a thread and correct me. Although that is something I will not subject Bandit to just to satisfy my curiosity!

As for a bit sagging - that is the effect of the weight of the bit and the normal looseness of a bridle. My experience is that if I adjust the bit for less than 1/2" of clearance from the canines, relaxed, my horse will get upset during a big trot or canter. If there is more than 1/2" of clearance, my horse will NOT get upset. My explanation for what I see is that the bridle and bit are sagging down in the mouth at the bottom of the stride, hitting his canines. I cannot prove it, but I know moving the bit up one hole will cause the irritation and fussiness to disappear immediately.

And at that level, I see no way to get the bit to ride up and hit the molars. I just don't know how I could do it. I couldn't get it close to the molars. I suspect what you are seeing pictures is someone who has FIRST adjusted the bit high in the mouth, supporting it with a noseband, and THEN been a hamfist.

Too many riders are heavy-handed. But that is true regardless of the sport and regardless of the type of bit.

I'll try a few weeks of riding Bandit in the Wonder bit. Bandit doesn't get claustrophobic in a curb, and he listens well enough in his O-ring. He certainly does not "need" a gag bit. All I can tell from one ride is that it is most certainly NOT a cruel bit. It is not, by design, hard for him to understand, accept, and ride in. It isn't giving him conflicting signals. He didn't raise his head, let alone thrash or shake his head (as he will if a piece of grass gets caught on the bit). So...worst case, it is less annoying to him than a piece of grass on his bit...


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> I just would like to understand _what_ the point of using these bits is - as I'm rather confused. From a classical standpoint, they are something I would never use. There's many bits such as that, and I'd like to know what exactly a gag is supposed to do that's beneficial.


I recently tried a gag bit for the first time after a recommendation from @phantomhorse13. The very well trained 17 hand eventer I was riding overreacted extremely to having a bit with a curb chain (rearing, hopping to light pressure). This was on a kimberwicke, which has very little leverage and I have used these on many horses, even very sensitive ones. So my opinion was that this horse was not going to tolerate chin pressure. What I needed was a bit that had more incentive to stop than a snaffle, but nothing underneath the chin. 

What the gag did for this horse that was beneficial: it allowed me to gallop the horse with another Thoroughbred and slow down in time to turn corners and such, without having him overreact. He was very light in it and for him it had a head lowering action.
This horse is very well trained and does 2nd level dressage and jumping in a snaffle. Another experienced rider and myself tried riding him out at the canter with other horses in a snaffle, but when excited he did not respond well enough to trust at the gallop. He has been in this type of situation many times, so is unlikely to become much less excited about moving out with other horses. 

This was not a training shortcut, but rather a solution for a type of horse many would find quite intimidating or unsafe to ride in this situation. 



Aprilswissmiss said:


> If you need an advanced bit to _control_ your horse because you can't with anything less severe, you should probably go back to the training basics and work your way back up. Harsher bits, if used at all, should be used as a tool for refined communication for advanced maneuvers, not to control a horse that won't listen or collect on a snaffle.


I think you just have not experienced this type of situation where horses can be extremely well trained (I can do half pass at the canter, collected and extended trot and canter, shoulder-in and many other dressage movements in a plain snaffle in the arena with this horse) and still not be able to go in a snaffle in all situations. I can think of no reason other than pride that would make one try to ride a horse so strong in a bit they will not respond well in when excited. I can also think of no reason to not take a horse out for a gallop if you can find the right equipment that works for them, especially a giant Thoroughbred that is off the track and loves to run. 



The Equinest said:


> As for the gag issue - I'm debating it because I've yet to come across an argument _for_ gags that really makes much sense on a scientific level. Most people just use them for control, which in my opinion isn't the reason to use a bit.


I think you are using "control" to mean a person being "controlling." I am a very non-controlling person when I ride, since I've found that allowing a horse more freedom of movement will make them more willing to work with me. But safety can be a big concern if a person is out of control. So in that sense, yes, you need to use the amount of bit the horse needs to not be out of control. That means you can slow them enough to avoid hitting that patch of poor footing that popped up in front of you, or avoid the ditch. An out of control horse is more likely to lose the rider and end up loose, perhaps on the road. Not every horse was started from the beginning by good and knowledgeable horsemen. Some have learned they can run through a snaffle, and no amount of going back into an arena and having them go around it not running through a snaffle will convince them otherwise. You can't give a horse amnesia through practice. Take them into the wrong situation again, and off they will go. I know this because I have tried it on more than one horse. In these cases, having a bit that allows you to control the horse is very prudent and wise.
And no it is not true that a horse that has learned to run through a snaffle will run through everything. Horses can often be convinced that a bit with a different type of action is something they must listen to. As with @bsms' example and his horse Mia.



The Equinest said:


> That upwards + downwards action isn't going to get a hot horse to slow - you're going to have to engage the mouthpiece into putting more pressure on the actual bars and tongue. Which means over rotation and squeezing the head between the bit and poll.


In the case of the horse in my example, the gag only seems to amplify the snaffle action. Since the horse is well trained to respond to the snaffle, it seems he only needs to have the snaffle pull a little bit harder in order to get him to listen when galloping strongly over open country. Since he is a very big horse, it's basically just having the effect of making the rider a little bit stronger. 
There is nothing wrong with that. Perhaps a three year old's pull on a snaffle might not stop a horse, but an eight year old's will, or maybe only an adult can stop the horse since the horse has always been ridden by adults. How much pressure the horse will listen to can be individualized in different situations.



The Equinest said:


> Inverted posture is bad. We've established that, I don't think we need to go over it again.


Your pictures of horses galloping are only showing horses that can see where they are going, and also are carrying their necks at an elevation where they can balance with the speed they are going. Self carriage at the gallop is a far different thing from at a collected canter. I believe you are thinking horses should travel with their necks curved over at the poll in order to not be "inverted." In actuality, so-called "inverted" posture involves the horse moving his neck above the range of his natural movement and also bracing with his neck and back muscles. Horses galloping with their necks elevated and heads forward are within the range of their natural and unbraced movement. The photo you describe as trailing behind shows a horse thrusting the hindquarters at the gallop. The full gallop is an extended gait, not a collected one, and the horse moving properly will not show any sign of collection.
Most likely this horse could not gallop at this speed with the neck lowered in this type of footing without losing balance or tripping. Her head is up so she can see where she is going at such a fast speed. This movement will not harm the horse's body, and is balanced and not "inverted." This is natural for an Arab.









I would submit that perhaps a lot of what you see as being wrong with gag bits due to those you have observed might actually be due to poor riding and/or potentially poor saddle fit. I strongly believe that poor saddle fit causes kissing spine and braced muscles more than anything else, and is far more likely to be the cause of poor posture in a horse than bitting issues.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> And then there's this image - a canter. The rider isn't really even applying pressure barely if at all, and still - the horse is inverted and the hindquarters trailing. There's a million images just like this one, and *you cannot tell me all these riders have a bad seat or all these horses are poorly trained or that all these horses have naturally that bad of self carriage and still got selected as eventing horses. That is a man-made posture, no horse naturally takes it.* And the only similarity I'm seeing is guess what - either a gag, or an idiot rider with a snaffle and hard hands.


Just to clarify which pictures I am talking about regarding the OP's gait analysis, they are from this post above.
The horse is not cantering, but is galloping. The hindquarters cannot be "trailing" at the gallop, as you can see in the image below, the gallop requires _extension_ of the gaits and a huge hind end thrust. Both horses have incredible balance and "self carriage," which if they did not have at the gallop they would fall down. Certainly they are not poorly trained. What is being compared here is apples and oranges. These horses are moving very well. 








I am not sure what you are looking at exactly when you think the back is not rounded under the horse. 
In this example:










> This pony has the same high neck carriage and drooping "hollow" back as the first one, each though you can see the droop in the reins! It's not the snaffle rein either that's causing that amount of lip stretch, as you can clearly see that the snaffle rein is much looser than than the gag rein. The gag reins is applying all of the force, and it's not even all the way to the same level of rotation as the first image, yet there's still that high amount of lip stretch and poor posture.


Again the horse is galloping, and therefore the hindquarters have coiled strongly underneath the horse, the neck is raised for necessary balance. The back is not visible under the saddle, so I am not sure how you could possibly say it is not rounded? Also horses breathe through their nostrils, and at the gallop for many horses this requires a raised head and nose to open the trachea and facilitate air movement. 
Here is one of the greatest horse athletes of all time, and certainly his hindquarters are not "trailing" behind him.








Nor is his "back hollow" in this picture.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> Lifting the head alone does nothing for the horse balance wise or agility wise, nor will it make it easier for him to execute his task... To raise the head to maximum or near-maximum elevation in the manner that I've shown previously, you must engage the muscles of the topline which contracts the topline, and sends the hindquarters trailing out behind, inhibiting their ability to drive.


And that is _exactly_ why I ride Duroc in a gag - I want the task _he_ has decided on (running away) to be harder!



The Equinest said:


> She's also the standard "hot headed" girl, and can get very pushy and mouthy when she feels like it, so I'd be interested to see exactly what that will do to her headset in a gag. I may ride with a snaffle rein + a curb rein just in case.


If you are comfortable riding with double reins, then def do so. When I was routinely retraining off-track horses to go out on trail, a 3 ring elevator with two reins was my go-to bit. That way I could ride on the snaffle rein if all went as I hoped.. but if things got more exciting than I planned, I had that second rein as the emergency brake.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> Lisa Lockhart barrel racing. The horse, despite wearing what looks to be a Jr. Cowhorse which has a small amount of gag action, does not have what I consider a lifted shoulder. He's dropped his shoulder into the turn.


Let me first comment on your comparison of Lisa Lockhart to your English rider you posted. Let me point out that those two horses are being asked to do two entirely different things. Your dressage horse is loping in what appears to be a straight line. Lisa's horse Louie is about to come in for the turn, on the extremely small pattern at the NFR. Louie, who, is an absolute legend and Mr. Consistency. * He is NOT dropping his shoulder in the picture you posted. *

I would never consider the two horses you posted to look the same in body position b/c they are not at all doing the same thing.

Not to mention, I do NOT see a rounded back on the dressage horse you posted. Looks hollow to me. Front end too far off the ground in relation to the rest of the body; doesn't look right. Mouth gaping. (Sorry, I'd pick the picture of Louie any day of the week!!!)


Curious.... have you barrel raced? To what level??




The Equinest said:


> - gag bits. I've always been told since I was young that they're terrible contraptions, that when the reins are pulled the mouthpiece slides up and hits the molars(depending on the amount of gag and length of shank, though there are many that are very long these days), and at the same times applies poll pressure.
> 
> So. That is what I've come to, and yet I've never heard the counterarguement for a gag bit.
> 
> I just would like to understand _what_ the point of using these bits is - as I'm rather confused. From a classical standpoint, they are something I would never use.


Since barrel racing has been mentioned, yes, you will see them a lot in barrel racing. One of my favorite bits is a Jr Cowhorse with the smooth dogbone mouthpiece. I like small amount of gag becuase I feel it gives the horse a little bit of a warning signal before the bit fully engaged. In my opinion, THAT is the best purpose of a gag bit when it's used as it's intended. Yes, you'll get poll pressure too, but you have to pull your rein all the way up to engage the bit fully. I also like the jr cowhorse b/c I can direct cue just one side of the mouth, and leave the other side alone -- ideal for a direct rein which is often used in barrel racing. 

My horses have never gone all that well in a lot of gag, such as a wonder bit or a Goosetree Simplicity for example, but I use small amount of gag all the time. In fact, my horse Red's regular riding bit has a little bit of gag. Just a cheapo bit I got online many years ago - works well. 



AnitaAnn said:


> These are some of the things that have been shared with me:
> 
> 1) Barrel racing/speed events. To be able to stop the horse. The horse becomes unmanageable in the ring, and the gag is the only way to stop the horse.


Of course, as already discussed, this is not the proper use of ANY bit (of course the answer is better training for the horse ) but being a barrel racing myself, I can't say I've ever really "been told" or that it's "accepted" that a gag bit is the only thing to stop an out of control horse. People (who don't know any better) usually suggest longer shanks, sharper mouthpieces, nosebands, etc etc. But again, that's wrong advice anyway.



AnitaAnn said:


> My opinion (and I ran barrels as a teen) the horse is not suited for the sport, or not trained for the sport, or a combination of both.* These folks appear to believe that a horse must be "fired up" to run*. IME, the opposite is true, a fast run requires a thinking, highly trained horse not a mindless one.


I think it varies wildly on the horse. They are such individuals. If you watched the recent NFR, some jockeys slowly "pranced" their horses down the alley. Others let 'em fly from the back 40! They all have different styles and all of them had the potential to win. Some horses have a more fired up personality - some don't.

Speaking the NFR alone, I cannot imagine having to force my horse to stand in line and wait. They must all stand there, in order, and can be FINED heavily if you don't. Not at all what I do at a normal rodeo or jackpot! And that fact those horses can do that night after night, 10 rounds in a row. [email protected]!!, I have such respect for those ladies to help their horses "keep it together" in the alley like that. Such a high pressure situation.



The Equinest said:


> So far, no one has yet to give me any evidence that a gag is _not_ predisposed to cause poor posture when ridden with contact. Any bit can do it, yes. But the gag is specifically made to lift the face and only the face, which causes the inverted posture, and therefore I do think there's a very good possibility it's a harmful bit.


My photobucket is just not working today. But when it does, I'd love to post one of my favorite barrel racing pictures using my gag bit and my horse looks like a wonderful balanced spring. 

I guess I really don't get THAT worked up about mechanics of a bit. If something is working for me, it's working, and we go with it. I don't need to know every detail of why it's working. I know what I _feel_, and how my horse_ feels_ about it, and that's what we go with.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> Okay, let's go back to the initial standing point to why I wanted to discuss this, because we're getting a bit sidetracked on a number of things from training methods to equine psychology(not that those topics aren't important, they're just not what I was intending to discuss and they're not necessarily connected in all ways to the topic). Also, I am sorry if I come off short on some of these posts, it's a side effect of checking these either late at night or in-between other things when I have time.


I don't think discussing training and such is off-topic as those are all factors when riding and training horses. I don't think it is fair it single the bit out alone.

I too apologize if I get short. I have been cranky plus I do love a good "discussion'. Just ask my husband!




> 1.) The gag's action. We've established gags are used to "lift the head" by most riders. Which while you can lift the face with a gag, you cannot lift the forehand, which is the purpose of lifting the head. Lifting the head alone does nothing for the horse balance wise or agility wise, nor will it make it easier for him to execute his task. You cannot ride the face, as the body will not always follow. It's a basic torque equation - the legs support the horse. Apply force on one end, and there must be another force pushing down on the fulcrum(the withers in this case). That is the exact opposite response most people desire when trying to lift the head - they want to lift the forehand as well. But the gag doesn't do that, because lifting the forehand does not come from lifting the head. When you lift the head to such a high height, you push down the base of the neck because the weight of the head/neck is pushing downwards on the withers/base of neck now. A horse with good self carriage arches the neck up and lifts the base of the neck in doing so. To raise the head to maximum or near-maximum elevation in the manner that I've shown previously, you must engage the muscles of the topline which contracts the topline, and sends the hindquarters trailing out behind, inhibiting their ability to drive.


Some do believe the gag lifts the shoulder or head. I do not and most on this thread do not use it to lift the head. I have not found the gags I have used or own to do either.
I will use barrel racing as an example as this is where you most hear it, but if a horse is throwing his shoulder into the barrel I found it is usually an anticipation issue or a timing or position problem on my part. Taking my cowhorse background and applying to barrel racing, I found horses who are responsive to me inside leg solves a lot of those shouldering issues. I don't rely on a gag to try to pickup and hold his front end out of the way.




> 5.) My point is this - I've shown what I believe is enough evidence to support there being a possibility that gags cause poor posture. Any bit _can_ cause this, but it seems to me that based on the poor mechanics of a gag that only work to pull the head up and not anything else, that a gag is rather well-made to cause these issues over another type of bit. Soft hands will not fix that - some horses can be ridden with no contact,* but in the sports where gags are most commonly used(barrel racing, polo, eventing, jumping), constant contact is often used.* A jumper doesn't let his horse run with a loose rein between jumps any more than a polo pony is let run on loose rein. These horses do not have a riding style that allows them to ride with no contact - they receive a constant amount of it. They have their heads forced up, and their withers pushed down, putting them in an inverted position with a tense neck and back, not a supple or collected back whatsoever.


As far as barrel racing is concerned the amount of constant contact is based on the horse and rider. I am no barrel racing expert. I have dabbled in it over the years and got to ride some pretty cool horses and I tried to apply my cow horse background which seemed to work well. So that meant not babysitting the horse, staying out of his way but let him know I was there to help him when needed, and building confidence with speed. Contact was used as needed, not constant. And trying to stay out of his way was aided with the gag. By slowing my hands if I got quick and in a hurry(again mentioning that timing issue, putting them in a speed jam).





> I do not think that people who ride in gags are evil, or bad riders, or that they want to hurt their horse. But I do think that there's a very good possibility with quite enough reasonable, logical evidence that gags _can_ cause quite a few very harmful issues for a horse. Soft hands are only as soft as the bit. Soft hands and a hard bit are still soft hands and a hard bit, only the degree of harshness is changed from very hard to less hard. Hard hands and a soft bit do not equal up, they create hard hands and hard bit. A bit is not as bad as the hands that hold it - no matter who holds the reins, a spiked medieval war bit is still a spiked medieval war bit in a horse's mouth. A snaffle still has snaffle action and a curb still has curb action, while a gag most definitely does have gag action. If you can ride with a loose rein, that's great. But many, many horses cannot and many of those horses are ridden in gags. And many of the horses ridden in gags such as that have poor posture and poor communication with the rider. Polo is one of the sports that uses gags the most, and just by scanning the first few rows you come up with many horses that have poor self carriage with high heads/etc. And they're nearly always ridden in a gag. Just because we might not like the sport doesn't mean we should ignore it - the gag action is the same whether it's polo or eventing. The same goes for the video on a sliding gag I linked a while back - just because you might not like the person making it doesn't mean the action of the bit isn't true.


It has nothing to do with not liking the person. I have an issue with putting a bit on a horse skull and bungee cord and calling it "science". It is not. It is a demonstration. I am guessing you are in her bitting group as you have repeated some things word for word. No judgment from me as I used to be in there too. I do have an issue with that person's inability to discuss ideas. If you disagree then you are blocked. Any how despite the horse skull with no flesh demonstrations being inaccurate I think they are fun to watch and can be informational as they can make potential bit buyers more aware but they can also misleading.


You mentioned the bicycle chain bit(mule bit) or spiked bits as being evil regardless of the hands. I agree if the horse can not find relief from it no matter what, despite there being no contact from the reins/rider's hands. That is the key, the horse should be able to find the neutral spot(balance). In a gag, or at least the simple ones the people here are using) a horse can most certainly the relief/neutral/balance spot. In a mule bit that would be pretty hard. He would have to be on the vertical with his mouth open enough to avoid the mouthpiece.

Where as with most gags with a simple, single jointed mouthpiece, if there is no rein tension it feels as though he is ridden in a snaffle with a bit more weight to it due to the weight of the shanks. So not a fair comparison to the gag.



> So far, no one has yet to give me any evidence that a gag is _not_ predisposed to cause poor posture when ridden with contact. Any bit can do it, yes. But the gag is specifically made to lift the face and only the face, which causes the inverted posture, and therefore I do think there's a very good possibility it's a harmful bit.


I rode in one of my banana gags today, please see my following post.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Due to @bsms trying the Wonder gag and reporting with experience and pictures, I too went digging for my gags. Unfortunately due to our recent move I couldn't find the little short gag I pictured in my first post in this thread but I did find a brand new banana gag made by a Texas bit maker. While it does have much longer shanks it has a stop for the mouthpiece making the gag portion about the same.
I too haven't ridden for a couple months between moving and the holidays but I got Stilts out and saddled him. Unfortunately, It was very slick with frozen ground with a tiny bit of slimy thaw on top. Walking was slick so I didn't get a chance to really work him.



So this is what I found keeping the points brought up in this thread in mind and the horse I am riding.
Most of you know Stilts but those who don't: cow horse bred and trained. Been a ranch horse all his life, shown ranch rodeo, team roped, steer stopped, low level reined cow horse, stock horse, ranch horse.
Sensitive horse so he worries about his face. He never really liked the snaffle or super heavy bits and surprisingly disliked the Billy Allen. Team roping he went better in the short shanked chain bit. I showed him in the hackamore, two rein and found he prefers the lower port of the frog, mona lisa and san joaquin for his bridle. (pictures attached)
He is not shy about protesting if I get heavy handed, either by hiding his face or the opposite by trying to get above the bit. And stressed chomping, pulling his lips up.



So in all fairness, I rode him in a loose ring snaffle first as he hadn't been ridden in a while and it was the same mouthpiece as the gag even though he doesn't really like the snaffle. I also I thought it would give a better comparison for feel in riding in both.
After getting him broke him loose, he was pretty tight, he was responsive to my legs and seat. But too slick to do a whole lot.


I then switched to the banana gag, no curb strap. He was the same. No change in mouth action or head elevation from the loose ring snaffle riding him. I should note, I have never ridden this horse in a gag of any sort.



He is the type of horse who is all business when riding but pushier on the ground. So to take the factor of my seat and legs away and just use my hands and bit to see how he would react on the ground. 



He was not offended by the gag bit. I did notice with this bit where the mouthpiece stops sliding on the shanks differs due to horse's face position and hand/rein position. Sometimes I could get halfway up or more and sometimes only 1/3 of the way before it would bind up. I need to play with it more and record which hand and head position gets more gag action.


I also tested poll pressure.(no curb strap) 

On my bit, with this horse, I slipped my fingers under the top of the headtstall. Yes, this bit does apply poll pressure. But it wasn't enough for MY horse to change his head position. He was unaffected by what little poll pressure it applied. He does not have a bridle path and I have not trained him to lower his head to me pressing his poll. I will admit the pressure on the poll was much less than I expected. I think it looks severe because the shanks are pulled back and it moves the cheek pieces of the headstall up the face closer to the eye.



I then put the longest leather curb strap I could find on the gag. I have never ridden this horse in a chain curb of any kind.
This curb strap wasn't long enough for me to adjust where I would like on this bit and this horse so the curb strap engaged before the gag stopped and applied pressure to the poll. 

He did raise his head when the curb strap engaged. He was more offended by the curb strap and the new placement as it sat farther up the jaw than he is used to than anything else.


I wish I had pictures to demonstrate. Next time I will remember to throw my phone in my pocket which I had intended to do.




Trying to get pictures attached...hold please....


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

I rode in a gag a bit today, and I've got pictures and some discussion on it but it'll be waiting until after Christmas when I have time, everyone.  I'll be back then.


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## Best Blend (Nov 27, 2009)

*Bits - no discussion*

For 12 years now I have ridden my OTTB with a bitless bridle or a halter - with great results and an enhanced bonding experience. And during this time have seen countless discussions about which bit will get the results you desire, and which bit causes less pain or discomfort. If the questions have to be continually asked, then the answers will continually be elusive as there’s no answer that will soothe any horse owners’ gut feeling about whether these devices should be used on any animal. 

To answer the questions permanently, one might ask their favorite human athlete (maybe a pro football player?) to jam a metal chopstick sideways into their open mouth and tie string around the ends of the chopstick and around the back of their head to anchor it tightly. Then have the athlete jog or sprint around the sports field a few times and ask the athlete’s opinion about how comfortable this contraption is and whether it might cause the athlete to desire to hang out with you and become your best friend. I’m pretty sure the answers would be a hearty hecks no and hecks no. And this experiment wouldn’t even take into consideration having “reins” tied to the ends of the chopsticks and having another human pull and jerk and “discipline” the athlete during their exercise session. 

If only horses could do lab experiments on humans.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Best Blend said:


> ...To answer the questions permanently, one might ask their favorite human athlete...to jam a metal chopstick sideways into their open mouth and tie string around the ends of the chopstick and around the back of their head to anchor it tightly. Then have the athlete jog or sprint around...


Not remotely comparable. Maybe you've never met a horse who benefited from a bit. I have. Nothing wrong with my "bond" with my horse, but he's an independent cuss who doesn't always know best. And when we go faster, he often WANTS some contact. Not my choice. His.

Bits also offer more precise communication than a bitless bridle. We've logged plenty of miles/hours bitless, using rope halters or Dr Cook's:








Riding him solo in the desert convinced me he felt more comfortable with a bit. So...we do. He relaxes more with a bit. I spent months alternating between bitless and bitted on trails and concluded Bandit preferred the bit.

"_and having another human pull and jerk and “discipline” the athlete during their exercise session_"

Ride like that and bitless will be cruel too.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

> To answer the questions permanently, one might ask their favorite human athlete (maybe a pro football player?) to jam a metal chopstick sideways into their open mouth and tie string around the ends of the chopstick and around the back of their head to anchor it tightly.


Due to the different anatomy you are comparing oranges to apples.
But with that said: do the same with a "bitless" contraption - a piece of leather or rope tightly over nose and under chin... Reins optional. I don't think your human athlete will be happy with that one either :wonder:


And to answer the question if I have ever ridden bitless: Yes I have!


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## whisper2myhorse (Dec 8, 2019)

trailhorserider said:


> I am a trail rider and really don't have use for a gag bit but I did try one once or twice........you know the "wonder bit?" I tried it on a middle aged trail horse that I normally rode in a curb. So it's not like he needed it, I just wanted to see how it worked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just recommended that bit to a friend who has been having a lot of trouble with her horse that was using a gag bit. She started using the one in the picture and the issues she was having improved on the first ride with the bit. This is the same bit I use for my four horses and I wouldn't use anything else. They respond very well to it.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@COWCHICK77


For clarification, I don't think that training methods are not relevant, but the specific ones we were going over a while back weren't really what I was wanting to have a discussion on. I'm interested more in the mechanics of the gag, etc. Training certainly comes into play, yes - but at that moment it wasn't relevant.  



--- 



Alright, now moving on to the riding I did in a gag. First off, my mare Miss is a rescue horse I bought last year, and we've logged hundreds of miles on the roads and in our first endurance race last year. She and I have clicked quite well, and we've just gotten to the point in our training where we're learning to move a bit more off the seat rather than relying on my hands to send cues. I've tried her in multiple bits and found her most comfortable in a basic copper-mouthed eggbutt snaffle, in which she responds very well and is very soft. She's prone to get stubborn and very hot-headed when she gets her way. I wouldn't call her a "spooky" horse(in fact I'm 99% sure she intentionally spooks just to change her gait/speed sometimes), but she's very "jumpy" and snorty for a 15+ yro mare.  



This is how her snaffle typically is set - no wrinkles, sitting comfortably in the mouth(I would have taken off the bit-guards but they're a pain to get on and off so I decided against it):












My thumb is at the edge of the molars here, and as you can see it's about 1-1.5 inches from the corner of the lip: 













Now, here's the gag I was riding in - a "dutch" gag(I believe these are the ones called Dutch Gags... that may be the 3-ring shanked gags however.) that's quite commonly seen in many equine sports. It's a pretty good quality made bit it seems, looks sturdy and felt like it was made well: 













The gag was a little thicker at the edges of the bar than the eggbutt, but not a whole lot. The weight of the mouthpiece of the gag and the snaffle felt pretty similar to me. I messed around with it a bit before putting it in my horse's mouth, and one thing I found that I did not like is that when the mouthpiece was angled up, it would sometimes catch if you pulled back on the shanks. Given the anatomy of the horse's mouth, and that the tongue is constantly pushing the bit up to some degree, I don't think it would be as smooth as you think originally if the horse got hot-headed or pushed against the bit. 



Obviously, given that the shanks are completely straight with no curve whatsoever, there's a great deal of leverage in this bit. The actual large ring of the sliding part of the bit also acted partially as a shank/purchase as well depending on how hard you pulled. My mare didn't react too much when I swapped bits - she could tell it was different immediately, but she just chewed on it a little. I set the gag up to lay the same as the snaffle, because I've found my mare reacts poorly to having any wrinkles in her lips constantly. She dislikes the constant pressure of the bit pulling up, so it's set pretty loose:











A small note - I ride in a halter/bridle combo, but the halter noseband isn't tight enough to keep the horse's mouth shut. I did _not _ride with a curb strap as most people on here have said they don't use a curb strap with a gag. 



Distance from the molar:











Now, for the ride. I got on, walked around a bit on a loose rein, then jogged a bit to warm her up and get her relaxed a bit(she tends to start off tense, wanting to go as soon as I'm on). I rode in a round pen because I dislike testing new bits on the road, if my horse doesn't like them and gets riled up I'm stuck either in a bit she doesn't like or trying to ride in a halter with a spooky/irritated horse on backroads(where people _love _to ignore the speed limit). So we started off in the round pen. After a bit of warming up, I asked her to stretched her neck out a bit and drive under with the hindquarters a bit. 



And that is where are troubles started in. She didn't understand the cue to stretch out and lower her head at all in the gag. She started to raise her head, then stopped and flexed at the poll, adopting a "tight and tucked" position with her neck, behind the vertical. Which was the opposite of what I wanted her to do. I loosened the reins and let her trot around a bit, then decided to ask for something a bit easier - a halt. I wanted her to raise her head and arch her neck a bit into the contact, like she normally does in the snaffle, then when I sit back a bit to stop. 



However, she did not do that either. I applied a bit of pressure, and she fought the bit. I applied a little bit more and sat back to try and get my cue across a little stronger, and she started flipping her head up and down, then finally came to a stop. This happened nearly every time I applied more than a very small amount of pressure(She's a very stubborn horse when she wants to be, and when she's irritated she's even more so. She's also no GP dressage horse or reiner and is not absolutely soft and supple.), and it became pretty clear very quickly that she did not like the bit. So, I got off and tested the poll pressure on the bit. I stuck my fingers under the bridle at the poll, and found that when I pulled back, it applies poll pressure only after about half the rotation that gag could make. By the time the gag rotated all the way, the poll pressure was quite a bit. Which may have been part of her confusion - she's trained to move away from poll pressure, which she's not perfect at but she gets the point. However, the gag is applying pressure on the mouth upwards and downwards from the poll, which is probably why she got confused when I asked her to stretch out a bit. 



Next, I tested how much rotation was needed to hit the molars, and I found that it was _not _nearly as much rotation as I thought it would need. It was roughly 90 degrees, which given the bit's shape didn't stretch the lips as far as I expected it too. Of course, we must take into note that compared to the "Wonder Bit", which has curved shanks, this would differ. But it surprised me how little rotation it took. In this image, my thumb is sitting right on the edge of the molar:












And for the last image - this is right about the amount the mouthpiece had to be curved upwards to get it to catch while sliding:












I would've liked to get a video of me riding in the gag vs. the snaffle, but I was alone so getting these images was hard enough. I may test it again on a different horse for another try, and try to get a video then.


But overall, here's my thoughts:


1.) I didn't like how "spongey" the bit felt. It took a pretty good deal of pressure on the reins compared to the snaffle to get my horse to respond when she did choose too, and given how easily it slid up, that makes me think it would be very easy to be constantly hitting the molars. The bit was very moveable and that also made a difference because my mare tends to prefer the stability of the eggbutt. She has been ridden in a loose ring snaffle before however, and did just fine, so I think it was more the shanks in combination with the movement that made her dislike the "spongey" feel. She's also the type of horse that doesn't like anything "jingling" on the bridle. I had clasps on my reins initially because it makes it easier to switch between bridle and halter, but I had to take them off because she disliked them so much. 



2.) I also disliked how easily it slid. That means instant engagement, given how straight the shanks are, and while it also means it should release quickly, it means as well that it can slide up quite far with quite a small amount of pressure on the reins. That was my most prevalent dislike, especially with how easy it was to get close to the molars. 



3.) The poll pressure. The bit created poll pressure much quicker than I thought it would, meaning again, that means you're asking the horse to move the head up and down at the same time. Many horses do not respond to poll pressure, but many, many of them do and any horse that's had some good groundwork will typically move away from any pressure placed on them. It caused my mare to flip her head around, and I imagine it's just as confusing for other horses. I'm going to try the bit next on a rather heavy-mouthed gelding that's my mother's who is _very _stubborn about moving away from any pressure whatsoever and see how he responds. 



4.) It _did _make my horse's head go up. She would start to raise the head, then the poll pressure would engage, and she'd drop it. To move away from both the sliding of the mouthpiece and the poll pressure, she adopted a rolkur-like position with the nose tucked in and the neck very arched. I did not attempt to pull far enough back to get the gag to stop sliding, because it was making my mare very uncomfortable with just a roughly 90-degree angle and I didn't want to test her grace in that manner. 



Overall? I didn't like it. I would _not _recommend it to anyone with a hot-headed horse because of the way it could catch on the shanks, and the way it made my horse get tense and tucked up. A hot-headed horse that gets like that is often bound to blow up. I also wouldn't recommend it to a sensitive horse because of the way the bit moves so much and can move around so much just from the horse's normal movement, barring any rein pressure. Most sensitive horses I've ridden have greatly disliked it when things were constantly moving in their mouth. As for the "dampening" effect - well, that ruins the purpose of instant engagement or release. The cues were dampened and confusing, and just caused my mare to get irritated and pushy on the bit. 



So yes. That was Test #1 on the gag on my regular riding horse. We'll see how the gelding reacts next time.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> ...And that is where are troubles started in. She didn't understand the cue to stretch out and lower her head at all in the gag. She started to raise her head, then stopped and flexed at the poll, adopting a "tight and tucked" position with her neck, behind the vertical....then decided to ask for something a bit easier - a halt. I wanted her to raise her head and arch her neck a bit into the contact, like she normally does in the snaffle, then when I sit back a bit to stop. However, she did not do that either. I applied a bit of pressure, and she fought the bit...


I'm not saying this in a confrontational way. There are a variety of ways to approach riding and I don't believe most of the standard ones are wrong. However, I suspect the difference we are seeing in results is rooted in our different philosophy of riding.

I never ask my horse to stretch out and lower his head. Ever. His head is his business. I never ask my horse to raise his head and arch his neck into contact. If he chooses to do so, I work with what he gives - but I never ask for it.

Frankly, I'd prefer to ride with almost no contact ever. We don't because Bandit doesn't want to ride like that. He sometimes likes to feel my hand, and that is part of why I stopped riding him in the desert bitless. It doesn't give him the feel he seems to want.

It could be gag bits are not a good match for how and why you ride. It may be - when weather allows me to ride again - I'll find they are not a good match for Bandit & I either. I prefer the Wonder bit to the 4-ring elevator (which was the same gag bit I tried on Mia years ago, BTW)...but that doesn't mean Bandit and I will settle on using one.

"_As for the "dampening" effect - well, that ruins the purpose of instant engagement or release._"

Not really, but I'm used to riding with a curb bit as a signal bit. The F-4 Phantom was a two-seat jet fighter. I flew as a WSO in them decades ago. A very good pilot told me the key to not pulling too many "Gs" was "stick rate input". If you pulled back smooth and consistently, then you could feel the wings bite into the air, the jet respond, and you could ease off before you flew the jet into too harsh of a turn. But if you snatched the stick (which controls the direction of flight in a fighter), you could overcontrol the jet and damage it.








That is kind of how I view the dampening effect with a gag (or curb). When possible, I want the horse to feel the initial movement, just 10-15 degrees of rotation, and respond THEN instead of waiting for full pressure. But like the F-4, how fast and how quick the pull is becomes critical. The larger distance your hand has to travel to get an inch of movement in the horse's mouth makes it easier to play around - not "_instant engagement or release_", but "_engagement is about to come, so let's just get the job done now and forget the rest of the pull_".

With curb bits, the horse's I've owned have learned to listen to the signal stage. I don't know yet if that will work with a gag. I accept that may not work for the type of riding you want to do and that is fine. But it doesn't make a gag bit bad. Can't speak to English riding since I don't do it. And until the mud dries out a few days from now, I won't be able to check it with Bandit. Still: *You cannot separate the gentleness of a bit from how the rider is using the bit.*

BTW - when I start a horse in a curb, I spend some time teaching him the reactions I want while standing on the ground next to him. I don't mount up until he knows what I expect him to do - to get release - from various pulls on the rein.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@bsms

No, I understand what you're saying. I ask my mare to "stretch out" a bit because it helps her relax before or while riding, and it also asks her to do a slightly more complex task to help strength her body by using muscles in a way that they may not be normally used. Given that she's my partner, I can easily tell how fit or strong I am, but I must keep her and help her get that way as well. I never ask her to constantly ride in that position, or maintain it for a very long time.

However, I will disagree with you that philosophy or riding style really matters. A bit has the same mechanics regardless of riding style - and the two basic types, curbs and snaffles, are used in both disciplines and all styles. I do not think that a bit should be limited to _one_ style of riding. What's more, people will likely never limit a bit to one style of riding even if they _should_. Gags are ridden with people who ride in a loose rein constantly like I try to do, or as you do, and by people who ride in constant contact. In fact, some of the biggest supporters of gags are those that ride in constant contact. So I do not think that you can really justify a bit by saying that it supports one riding style or another, because people will never limit it to that one style. All disciplines(other than dressage, I suppose. Or at least I've never seen a dressage horse in a gag, probably because they're not really useful mechanically to dressage or legal) use gag bits, so there is certainly no set riding style that promotes them. Loose rein or not, the mechanics are still the same when you pull back. What you do with your horse's head is your business, and many riders differ. If the gag can only be used on riders who ride with loose reins - well, then many, many people are potentially harming their horses. And if the gag should only be used on riders with loose reins(or, those that do not pull back/use the bit unless they absolutely need to), and is detrimental to those who ride with more contact - why use it at all? 

As for the dampening effect - well, the gag is supposed to have instant engagement and quick release, yes? Well, if you dampen that, you soften/muddle the cue. Which means instead of instant engagement, you get a weird "fuzzy" period between the actual engagement of the mouthpiece and the initial pressure. Just as my personal experience, my horses have rather preferred less-movable bits that give clearer, more precise cues with less force. That's just my experience, but some horses may prefer that bit of a "warning period" before the bit engages. I also train my horses to move off the seat more than the hands, so the seat acts as more of the "warning period" and I only engage the bit if I have to. I also think that if people get used to having to apply more pressure to get a response, then they'll start applying more pressure than they realize without knowing it. It's very easy to pull back harder than you realize with a bit that moves/slides so easily. It's one reason why I personally prefer using snaffles on harder-mouthed horses for training, because I can feel the horse's mouth easier through direct contact and I can feel _exactly_ how much pressure I'm putting on their mouth. 

Also, my mare's been ridden in a curb before and had entirely different reactions too it. One of the reasons I was so surprised as to how much she disliked the gag was because I believe it might have been you stated that the gag acted like an "amplified snaffle", and considering she prefers the snaffle over other bits, I didn't think she'd have as much trouble with it as perhaps a horse normally ridden in a curb might. I also didn't think she'd end up so confused with the bit. :| I don't think I'll rider her in it again, as she really didn't like it and I don't want to put her through that again. I'll see if I can test it on a few other horses however for experimentation's sake. She understands cues with a curb as well, maybe not as well as with a snaffle since that's what we normally go in, but she _does_ understand them. I can get her to "stretch out" in both bits.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

*gags are illegal in Dressage, as are several other bits. Horses bits are checked immediately before entering the ring*


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> ...However, I will disagree with you that philosophy or riding style really matters. A bit has the same mechanics regardless of riding style....


Actually, riding style has a huge impact on bit mechanics. English curbs and gag bits tend to have straight shanks. Why? Because English riding tends to favor horses with vertical faces, and a straight shank balances correctly when the head is vertical. Western curbs and gags have bent shanks because western horses typically carry their heads at 45 degrees. This affects the balance and also how far the bit can rotate before the shanks are pointed at the rider's hands - at which point the bit can rotate no more.



The Equinest said:


> ...Loose rein or not, the mechanics are still the same when you pull back....


Not even close! When the reins are loose, a curb bit starts to rotate while there is still slack in the reins. Same with a gag, I think, but I don't have video to prove it yet. That period of rotation is very obvious to the horse and offers the horse a "signal" - a pre-cue, if you will. It give the horse a chance to obey BEFORE pressure is applied to the mouth. But it ONLY works if the horse is ridden primarily with slack reins. If your reins are straight, you skip the signal phase and go directly to the pressure stage. HUGE difference.








Slack reins leave 1-2 lbs of pressure. An English bit maker tested bit pressure and concluded pressure less than 5 lbs were irrelevant. Possibly because keeping the rein straight results in pressures varying between 3-6 lbs of pressure. Thus a half-halt took 9 lbs of pressure. In comparison, a reiner had bit pressures measured and stopped the horse from a canter with 5 lbs on a snaffle bit.

Those differences do not make English riding or dressage wrong, but they do suggest a serious difference in how bits are used (and thus designed) in western riding!



The Equinest said:


> ...As for the dampening effect - well, the gag is supposed to have instant engagement and quick release, yes? Well, if you dampen that, you soften/muddle the cue. Which means instead of instant engagement, you get a weird "fuzzy" period between the actual engagement of the mouthpiece and the initial pressure...


Well, no. Not really. Substitute "softening" for "dampening". If it takes 3 inches of pull to move the bit 1 inch, then a three inch movement of the hands means the horse experiences one inch of movement. It also means a one inch pull results in 1/3 of an inch of movement. While the mechanical advantage is greater, the movement in the mouth is reduced. And horses, to a point, care more about movement. With a gag, unlike a curb, pressure RESULTS from movement. Thus less movement means less pressure.

You soften the cue, yes. That only "muddles" the cue if the horse is used to higher pressures/movement. It is a "weird "fuzzy" period" only if your horse is used to being ridden with a straight rein. If you normally ride with slack, that weird, fuzzy moment is a chance for the horse to pick the right answer before the reins increase the pressure. I'm writing this from a curb bit perspective and haven't had the chance yet (rain all day today) to see if it also works with a western gag bit.

A sheepherder on a friend's ranch nearing the end of a 30 mile day using a Tom Thumb bit:








Used in dressage, that tack would be cruel. Used on a 30 mile sheep drive...the horse didn't mind. He was full of energy and ready to move out when I got on him at 5 AM the next day. Thus I conclude a bit can be cruel if ridden in one scenario and fine if ridden in a different one.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've never tried this, but it would be another example of something common in western bitting but "weird" in English use:



> What is the purpose of slobber straps? They are designed to add weight and “feeling” to the bit, which in turn allows for a clear communication, feel and release in training. For young horses or those working heavily on softening exercises, slobber straps allow the horse to realize a change or transition is coming. Then the horse can start to process it and clearly feel the rewarded release with the leather pieces hanging straight down.
> 
> https://westernhorseman.com/mercantile/product-spotlight/gear-of-the-month-july-2/


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> I've tried her in multiple bits and found her most comfortable in a basic copper-mouthed eggbutt snaffle, in which she responds very well and is very soft.
> 
> Now, here's the gag I was riding in - a "dutch" gag
> 
> ...


Question:
How has the mare reacted to other types of bits you have tried? The same? You said you've tried lots on her and she's quite picky.

Thoughts:
I consider it a very, very big change from the bit you normally use on her to the gag bit you tried. I'm not at all surprised by the horse's reaction for her first time in it, especially since you say she is very picky.

I don't care for the bit you chose, just in my experience with similar ones, but I don't feel it's fair to lump ALL GAG BITS into the same category or make the same conclusions from one bit on one ride on one horse. JMO.

Photo bucket is still being a stinker, so I"ll just attach the file the "old fashioned way". Here's my horse going in his gag bit (Jr cowhorse with a smooth 3-piece mouth), and going just fine in it.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@bsms

Yes, there's a difference, but given that I was using an English style bit on a horse trained to ride more English-style than western and asking for a typically English move... and given that the gag supposedly acts as an amplified snaffle, which is what I typically ride in - her reaction doesn't make much sense to me. I've ridden her in a curb(three-piece Argentine) with double reins for training purposes, and she did not have that reaction of getting "tight and tucked" in the curb. She was quite relaxed in the curb, actually. The only reason I don't ride her in it more often is because she's not perfectly neck reining and I dislike having to constantly ride in double reins or risk poking my horse in the face if I need to pull her around quickly for whatever reason. 

Constant contact for me means rather than constantly engaging the bit or pulling on the horse's mouth, I have the reins "straight" but still a bit slack. I'm able to feel what my horse is doing with the bit easier than if the reins were entirely slack, but I'm not constantly bearing on the mouth. I'm by no means God's gift to horses, but I _do_ try to be as soft and quiet as possible. If I were to have ridden "dressage style" in that gag with constant weight on the bit, I do not think it would have gone very well. 

Also, I've read a little on that study but I'd love to know - in regards to the 5lbs of pressure, is that what the _rider_ is applying on the bit, or what the bit is applying on the horse? Because there's a great deal of difference between applying 5lbs of pressure on the reins of a curb and applying 5lbs of pressure from the bit on the horse. And I do believe the bit-maker studied modern dressage for his conclusion - which, in my opinion, there's a great deal more unnecessary contact in modern dressage than there needs to be, given the constant riding behind the vertical and the lack of collection. If a reiner can stop a horse with a snaffle on a loose rein with less than 5lbs of pressure - well, I think that somewhere dressage must have lost something. (I'm not saying dressage is always inherently right... but the "classical" principles of dressage are often very correct when it comes to many things. It shows something, in my opinion, that the best principles of both worlds often agree. However, like always, with the progression of equine sports there is the progression of flaws in the sports.)

As for when I said that the mechanics are the same regardless of loose rein or not - the _mechanics_ themselves are the same, yes. The "warning period" may be a bit more lacking, but when riding my mare on a more tight rein than I'm guessing you rode Bandit, there was still a "warning period" in which the bit would engage, but it was rather soft and slight before actually starting to slide up a great deal. It may have been different on a more "western style" bit, but unfortunately I don't have access to a curved-shank gag and I'm not likely to spend my money on it either, so I'd be happy to see your videos if you get a chance to get them. It would be interesting to see how much rotation/pull on the curved shank it takes to get the bit past the "warning period" compared to the straight shanked gag. 
@beau159

When my mare dislikes bits, she tends to chew on them a great deal, get very hot-headed and even to rear at times if I continue trying to ride in them. She also flips her head around a great deal and goes gaping at the mouth. I did not test her patience enough in the gag to get her too the point of rearing, fortunately. But yes, she reacted pretty much the same as with bits she normally doesn't like beyond that she typically doesn't like "boxing herself in" in a tight and tucked frame. When she's afraid or irritated she'd rather be stretching her face out and pushing against the bit normally. 

As for this bit being so "different" than what I normally ride in - technically, it shouldn't be. This bit should be even more clear or welcome to my mare than a western curb(which she also has been ridden in and did just fine), since it acts like "an amplified snaffle". Which is what she's normally ridden in - if anything, I'd expect her to be soften and respond quicker after a little while in the gag than in the snaffle. 

As for your mare - well, the Jr. Cowhorse has a great deal lesser gag action than either of the two main bits we've tested so far, and therefore is quite liable to have a different reaction, given than it cannot slide up very far and does not need to slide up far before engaging poll pressure and locking the mouthpiece, at which then it performs like a normal curb. Personally, if I were forced to ride in a gag I'd probably choose a Jr. Cowhorse with a nice smooth mouthpiece and a french link or perhaps a lozenge mouthpiece. I dislike the twisted versions of them very much, since gags act on the lips the twist is bound to drag across the lips. It may just be that I've always had rather sensitive horses, but many of the horses outside of my own that I've ridden in twisted wire have been quite irritated when stopping/backing/turning(The twisted wire is often very thin, too, so it's very harsh compared to a thicker, smooth bit.).


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The rein pressure studies were all done with snaffles only, so rein pressure equaled mouth pressure. 

The angle at which rotation stops on a Wonder bit is here:








At that point, the rotation effect is finished and the only remaining way to apply pressure/raise the bit is direct pulling back - same as a snaffle. This is only true with Bandit's head held at this angle. If he lifts his head and stretches his nose out (to see better in the distance when going faster), then there could be a little more rotation. [Note: You would actually have a small lever effect. I believe a class 2 lever with a 2:1 mechanical advantage]

The same can be done with a snaffle. This was Mia's favorite snaffle evasion when scared (Internet photo with blue lines added, not Mia or me):








By stretching her nose out, a direct line to my hands resulted in almost a straight line pull back to her molars. She could then leave them there or even grab them with her teeth - "She's got the bit in her teeth".


> The earliest known use of the phrase is in John Dryden's satirical poem The Medal, 1682:
> 
> But this new Jehu spurs the hot-mounted horse,
> Instructs the beast to know his native force,
> ...


She found having the snaffle rest against her molars quite acceptable and we did far too many fear-bolts before she learned (with help from a curb bit) to hold her ground instead.

One of the things Mia taught me was to never pull back, and back, and back to stop a horse. They get very content to pull forward with more strength than I can pull back. Instead, pull / release. Pull / release. Bump. Bump. Don't give them anything constant or firm, but NAG the horse. In a true fear bolt, the horse will NOT stop until its fear goes down. Hence, "_No one stops a bolting horse. They stop a horse who has stopped bolting._" But repeated firm bumps got her listening far faster than a steady pull of ANY pressure - and I probably exceeded 100 lbs of pressure on some of those bolts.



> Denny Emerson writes: So, how should I have obtained the response? He didn't listen to my light leg pressure. Why shouldn't I use more if he fails to respond? Well, because of what I just said. Harder and harder pressure makes him more nervous. The way to get him to move is not to bang on his sides, but to 'pester' him until he moves.
> 
> I have never read any book about riding that talks about 'pestering' a horse. They always use the terms like 'Apply the aids,' as if the horse will magically understand what the heck that means.
> 
> Know Better to Do Better


I find that is true with stopping as well as getting a horse forward.

I'm not in any way defending all use of gag bits. I just know some riders - much better riders than I will ever be - sometimes find them useful. With luck, I'll be able to try one with Bandit tomorrow. My guess, though, is that we'll go back to using an O-ring as our primary bit. Or maybe go back to this one. It is a great bit for a horse who likes to eat while riding since the grass has nothing to catch on:








PS: It is wonderful to have a polite discussion of bits!


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> Overall? I didn't like it. I would _not _recommend it to anyone with a hot-headed horse because of the way it could catch on the shanks, and the way it made my horse get tense and tucked up.


No surprise you didn't like it - anybody reading your posts would know that. :wink: 

If your mare is going well in a snaffle, and is very picky about bits, why would you want to change anything anyway? However, just because your horse doesn't like it doesn't mean another horse will have the same reaction. 

What bit did you ride your mare in for the endurance ride? Curious what ride you went to and what you thought of it. Will you do more?


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@phantomhorse13

I try to be objective when testing things, and from an objective standing point, I still didn't like how it acted and how my mare then responded. I've grown up riding hot-headed horses my entire life(never owned a full QH, probably never will), and I've never felt the need to stick them in a gag. Some have gone well in curbs, some in snaffles, some bitless. But I've never had a horse that I feel would benefit from that action or from "bitting up" in that manner if I can't control him properly or if he doesn't like the snaffle. I disagree very much with the notion of "bitting up" a horse if you can't communicate well in a bit that should work just fine - yes, some horses like different bits, but "control" isn't something I consider a reason to change a bit. Often it's a part of training rather than any issue with the bit.

As for the endurance race - it was quite fun, and I'll think I'll do a few more before my mare may move on to a more retired/broodmare stage. She's a good mover and a smart little girl and I'd love to get a foal out of her before she's too old, but I think it wouldn't hurt to wait a few more summers(she's not a maiden mare either). I rode in my eggbutt snaffle for the race as well, and she got quite hot once all the other horses started moving out(this was our first "official" ride so I wanted to hold her back a bit and keep her from rushing off like she's prone to do), but we managed quite well once she realized what was going on. I rode most of the day in a loose rein.  

As I said, I'll be testing that gag on a few different horses and cataloging their reactions as well. I'm well aware that 1 or 2 horses isn't a perfect testing base. (Today we had quite an adventure instead - some lovely 16 degree weather, 8 inches of snow, and some ice. We discovered that yes, our rubber shoes do not snowball, but yes, they will slide!) 
@bsms

Ah, interesting! It makes more sense to test those things in a snaffle anyhow, but it would be very interesting to see it done in a curb as well. 

And yes, "pestering" is sometimes much more effective! When I was re-teaching my mare to back up, if you got heavy on the hands she'd start rearing(she's got a weird mental block when it comes to moving the hindquarters...), but if you're light and more "nagging" she learned to go right on back. I've yet to meet a horse who truly enjoys learning to back up, but technique can certainly make a great deal of difference when it comes to it. 

I'm still a bit confused at to _why_ exactly my mare disliked the gag so much, considering she doesn't really have an issue with leverage and she's normally ridden in a snaffle, so it's not as if either of those actions are foreign to her. I may try it again and try to get a video so I can analyze it a bit more. She's not really the type to "stick the nose out" like you described on Mia(though my pony is, I may try it on him and see his response), she'd rather flip her head around or make one large surge forward to yank the bit out of my hands. She's quite stubborn when she wants to go(we learned that again today when we went skiing down an icey road because she wanted to trot and I wanted her to slow down for a car, I ended up steering her off the road and into a snowbank where she could get some traction to actually slow down). 

Also, likewise! I enjoy a good discussion, regardless of my personal feelings on things. It's always nice to be able to actually think and test things instead of watching people argue. (Though, given that I do have a temper I _might_ sometimes argue as well! lol)


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> When my mare dislikes bits, she tends to chew on them a great deal, get very hot-headed and even to rear at times if I continue trying to ride in them. She also flips her head around a great deal and goes gaping at the mouth. I did not test her patience enough in the gag to get her too the point of rearing, fortunately. But yes, she reacted pretty much the same as with bits she normally doesn't like beyond that she typically doesn't like "boxing herself in" in a tight and tucked frame.



So a devil's advocate question here: Was it really the gag itself your mare disliked? Or something else? (since there have been other bits that have given her the same reaction) 



I just question it since you do seem to be strongly looking for evidence against any and all gag bits, and quick to place all the blame on the gag action. What other bits has she not liked?







The Equinest said:


> As for this bit being so "different" than what I normally ride in - technically, it shouldn't be. This bit should be even more clear or welcome to my mare than a western curb(which she also has been ridden in and did just fine), since it acts like "an amplified snaffle". Which is what she's normally ridden in - if anything, I'd expect her to be soften and respond quicker after a little while in the gag than in the snaffle.



A leverage bit is not a snaffle. I don't expect any horse to immediately be soft and quick in a leverage bit of any kind, when they are most used to being ridden in a snaffle. 



What "western curb" have you used on her?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> I didn't like how "spongey" the bit felt. It took a pretty good deal of pressure on the reins compared to the snaffle to get my horse to respond when she did choose too, and given how easily it slid up, that makes me think it would be very easy to be constantly hitting the molars.* The bit was very moveable and that also made a difference because my mare tends to prefer the stability of the eggbutt*.


I would like to point out here that anyone who is testing a bit on a horse is not ever simply testing the action of a bit. Rather, you are always testing how a certain horse responds to the structure, mechanics and action of a bit. I bolded a key phrase. Basically, if you want to see how you like riding in a gag bit, you need to ride a horse that prefers the action of the bit, and then see what you think about how it works. 
If I put a gag bit on either of my two horses, I would think it was a terrible bit (if I thought I was only basing my opinion on how they responded to it). My super sensitive Arab mare only ever went in bitless bridles with no leverage (including no crossunder action), or double jointed snaffles. If you put a single jointed snaffle on her, you'd think they were the worst bit in the world. An eggbutt snaffle was terrible for her, making her drop her head to the ground due to the weight. A curb bit...also terrible, tried one one time only. These reactions had to do with her particular temperament and also her anatomy and sensitivity. 

How do I know that horse's reactions weren't just the way I was using the bit? I have ridden many, many other horses in snaffles of all kinds and curbs of all kinds, and these reactions were singular to her. I am sure she would react terribly to a gag. She is way too sensitive. My gelding only likes one certain type of mouthpiece, and he likes the gentle curb action of a kimberwicke. I would never use a gag on him. That being said, as described, I have ridden a horse that went very well in a gag, due to his own particular anatomy and temperament. 

I would think a horse that can do an endurance ride in an eggbutt snaffle and go on a loose rein would not ever require a gag bit, so your candidate to try it on was not one that would tell you much about the bit. If the horse responds to a gentle snaffle even when excited, the horse does not need a stronger signal, so a gag would only be a type of punishment for the horse. It would be like trialing smacking the horse's hip with a whip when the horse already moves over to a hand cue.  That is not fair to the horse. 



The Equinest said:


> I'm still a bit confused at to _why_ exactly my mare disliked the gag so much, considering she doesn't really have an issue with leverage and she's normally ridden in a snaffle, so it's not as if either of those actions are foreign to her. I may try it again and try to get a video so I can analyze it a bit more.


I would not try a gag on this horse again, since she doesn't like it. It is a different type of bit, so a horse that goes well in a curb or snaffle may not appreciate the action of a gag. It can be a good option for horses that don't like a curb (if they can't stand the chin pressure, which is a necessary part of a curb bit), or don't respond well enough in a snaffle. Neither of these things seem to relate to your horse.

My personal strategy with horses that seem difficult to bit is to first try different mouthpieces on a snaffle, and also different sidepieces since some horses don't like bits that move a lot such as a loose O ring, while others seem to be pacified by that movement. If the horse still doesn't like the snaffle, I may try a bitless option, or else I may try a gentle curb such as a kimberwicke. Most often I can find some type of snaffle that works. If not, usually the kimberwicke will. If the horse has such a bad mouth problem that he doesn't like any bit, some form of bitless or hackamore will usually work. 

I have run into horses with such sensitive skin that they can't be ridden in anything that rubs on the nose or sides of the mouth, in which case bitless will not work. The gag is another option that can work very well for some horses, and it is great to have a lot of ideas in your toolbox for singular horses. I've ridden several horses that were thrown into mechanical hackamores and they were a terrible idea for the horses. I've also owned a horse that went beautifully in a mechanical hackamore and loved it. Because of my early experiences I was vocal about how I thought mechanical hackamores were terrible. Later on, I had to eat my words when my own horse went so nicely in one. 

Something else to consider is that horses are "hot" in different ways. Your horse might be hot or reactive, in some ways. But a horse that needs a stronger bit is usually one that is hot about running fast and competing with other horses, and your horse is not that way or she would not have handled her first endurance ride in an eggbutt snaffle. My current TB is "hot," he spooks, rears, bucks, and other things. He does not have a drive to compete, run fast or keep running, so he does not require a strong bit in any situation. My last mare was hot, but she wanted to run and race at every opportunity. She required a lot stronger bit than my gelding.

My main point here is to consider each horse as an individual, and think about what it is they may need based on their temperament, anatomy, and particular issues. Don't limit yourself based on one horse's reaction. You may be surprised at what things you end up using someday, even after making up your mind at some point that you don't care for them. It has happened to me a few times.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 30, 2019)

Harsh bits are for harsh or strong horses. There should never be a harsh horse, but if by chance one has gotten that way, that's the bit you use. You use it to communicate to the horse that you aren't playing around, and you only use it if you are sure you know what you are doing. Citation Norton bits fits into this category.Even if you do use a bit like that, you still are gentle, because you aren't trying to hurt the horse into submission. The horse must decide to submit because he knows that you know better and that you are his leader, not his follower. 

You should never need a bit like a Citation Norton. Snaffles, when used correctly, can do just as much harm as a Citation. Any bit that can actually damage a horse in any way should not be used. That's my two cents.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Well written and well said @gottatrot 

I call my RMHA "nervy" because he is "hot" is a fast reacting way, not really race-brained but he definitely will run with the pack at first. Teaching him to think first has been a struggle since the beginning. 

Poor kid just can't keep up with the fast ones, and he knows it :wink:


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@beau159

The instant I engaged the gag, she went tense and tucked up, and gaping at the mouth. Typically when she doesn't like a bit, her first reaction may be head flipping/etc, but she likes to _push_. If she can grab the bit in her teeth and do whatever the heck she likes, she's happy. She didn't try that in the gag - she tried about as hard as she could to avoid it. And she's not really the type of horse to avoid things - if she wants something, she pushes. So yes - I'd say she dislikes the gag action. 

I've tried her in pretty much every variant of a snaffle I could get my hands on, and she was the best in the eggbutt(I think she likes to copper a lot as well). I've ridden her in a solid mouth "grazing" type curb since she liked how little the eggbutt moved compared to the loose ring/etc, and she didn't appreciate that(Probably because while she goes very well off the leg, she's not a perfect neck reiner yet. She's fine going in a curb, but in case of spooks/etc I prefer the snaffle until she's 100%.). A more "flexible" curb with a single jointed mouthpiece(ridden without a snaffle rein) wasn't her friend either. I've found she goes pretty well in an Argentine when ridden in a snaffle rein + curb rein for a little bit more help with cues while working on her neck reining/etc. Overall, she doesn't like the super "flexible" bits, but also isn't quite ready enough for a solid mouth curb. I'm in the process of getting a hold on a Mullen-mouth snaffle(they're incredibly difficult to find her, and I'd rather not order something online that I can't feel the quality of, but I may have to resort to that.) to try on her. 

And as I said, as soon as the weather decides to get back above 10 degrees, I'm going to go out and try it on my other horses. I know one horse isn't a very thorough test, obviously, and that different personalities and preferences need to be taken in. Overall, the reason my first review wasn't positive is because there really _wasn't_ any positive moments about it at all. It made my mare unhappy, and made the ride unhappy. I don't claim to be God's gift to horses, but I do have pretty soft hands and I've been riding for my whole life. It's not as if I don't know how to use a bit. We'll see how it goes with the others, and I'm interested to see if the circumstances repeat, or if there's certain things the gag really likes to encourage. We'll see, I suppose. 

As for the response I was _expecting_ to be possible from the gag - well, I don't expect a bit that functions supposedly as an amplified snaffle to be utterly confusing for my horse, especially after a little while of riding. She's not a super soft horse, but she's pretty soft and she usually loosens up after a little while and responds very well. I don't think it was the leverage - like I said, an Argentine and a solid curb were fine, just a little lacking in precision as she's not a perfect neck reiner and likes to run through my leg cues occasionally when she's in the mood. They're fine for arena work, but on the trail/road I might need that little bit of a clearer, quicker response provided by the snaffle + leg. 
@gottatrot

Which is exactly why I'm going to test it again, on different horses. I'm just documenting what the different responses are - by no means should they be taken as absolute.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@Kathrynil

No offense, but I've ridden many hot-headed and pushy(or even aggressive!) horses in my life, and never would I ever consider "bitting them up" to help anything. The more pushy - the more basic I go. Most of the time, it's neither a bitting or riding issue, but a groundwork issue. Bitting up a pushy or hot horse has only served to make them even worse in my experience. I had a pony who would run through every command in a snaffle, had no neck reining or leg cues, didn't stop or turn - well, now he's ridden by children in a halter for rodeos. It may take more time - but in my opinion the gentle approach is the best approach. 

As for the Citation - well, take my opinion as it is but that is not a bit that should ever be anywhere near a horse. Pain is not something I wish to be the communicator between me and my horse.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

beau159 said:


> Question:
> How has the mare reacted to other types of bits you have tried? The same? You said you've tried lots on her and she's quite picky.
> 
> Thoughts:
> ...



Late to this party, but... That picture is AWESOME.


Also, Jr Cowhorse with a smooth 3 piece mouth seems to make ALL our horses happy and seems to have a broad range of activities you can do in one. No one fusses or tries to get away from it, no one throws their head or tries to chew it. Everyone just moves on down the trail like it isn't there.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> No offense, but I've ridden many hot-headed and pushy(or even aggressive!) horses in my life, and never would I ever consider "bitting them up" to help anything. The more pushy - the more basic I go. Most of the time, it's neither a bitting or riding issue, but a groundwork issue. Bitting up a pushy or hot horse has only served to make them even worse in my experience. I had a pony who would run through every command in a snaffle, had no neck reining or leg cues, didn't stop or turn - well, now he's ridden by children in a halter for rodeos. It may take more time - but in my opinion the gentle approach is the best approach.


Bitting up is wrong for an untrained horse. You are describing horses that are "pushy," but this sounds to me like a lack of training. Not turning in a snaffle, not knowing leg cues, etc (although neck reining is an option that many english riders do not teach horses, so a horse that does not neck rein is not necessarily pushy or untrained). 

However, I have to assume you do not take these hot horses out and do certain things like galloping around in the open, since you do not understand the value of bitting up for some trained horses. After a horse has been well trained, knows how to accept bit, rein, leg, seat and weight cues, can turn lightly and rate at different gaits, a next step for some horses is to go out and do more challenging things such as jumping a cross country course, galloping down the beach or on a mountain trail with other horses, etc. If these horses will not pay attention to the rider during these activities in their usual bit, the solution is not to find something less strong than their regular snaffle. These horses often need to be "bitted up," to find what the rider can use to communicate with them when they are excited.

In these cases, more ground work will also not teach the horse anything about how to slow from a gallop to a canter when another horse is passing them at full speed. How could a horse possibly relate those two things? 

I am guessing you have read articles based on a somewhat popular theory that horses only get excited if they are in pain, so therefore if you make your cues more gentle, a horse will stop "arguing" with a bit and become more compliant. Horses can get excited due to pain, yes, but they can also get excited because they enjoy running fast with other horses, or alone. That kind of excitement will not get better if you give them less incentive to listen to you, but will rather get worse. 
I owned a wonderful horse who loved running, and if I ever put a bit on her that was less strong than usual, it made her quite ecstatic and she would run as fast as she could at the first opportunity. She was well trained and I could turn her, but in a gentle bit or hackamore she would try to gallop off every chance she could. It took more incentive to get her to stay in slower gaits, because she loved and preferred going faster. That was not a training issue, it was her temperament.

It sounds to me when you say "hot headed," you are relating this to a negative quality such as being stubborn or ignoring cues. In my opinion, "hot," is not a negative quality, but rather just describes a type of horse that is excitable, reactive, or very energetic. Having a lot of energy, responding quickly or preferring to move fast does not relate to training issues, but simply relates to temperament. Those are not things you will train out of a horse, and they will not change with any amount of ground work. Being more gentle will not make the horse less energetic. 

My responses are mainly to the idea that "never would I consider bitting them up would help anything." I'll just say that some people avoid taking horses into situations where they would need to consider this, but for those that do, bitting up can be very helpful. 
Take the chestnut horse in this video...the rider is unable to stop the horse from taking off. Chances are that this horse is well trained and simply knows that he/she can do this. In that case, bitting up could be the best thing to do. Notice that all the horses followed...were all the riders unable to keep their horses at the pace or gait they wanted? Your control should not be based on hoping everyone else can keep their horse under control. I want my horse to have the correct bit that can keep my horse going in the direction I want, at the pace I want, no matter what the other horses are doing. That is what "bitting up" is for.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> @...No offense, but I've ridden many hot-headed and pushy(or even aggressive!) horses in my life, and never would I ever consider "bitting them up" to help anything. The more pushy - the more basic I go...[/quote]
> 
> Hot, pushy and aggressive describes 3 different types of horses. Mia was a hot horse. She needed open spaces and had a deep desire to run. She was racing bred. When I traded her for Bandit, that was why they wanted her. She had a passion for speed and a competitiveness with other horses. They didn't want to race her, but to breed others with that same competitive, "must move" desire.
> 
> ...


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> ...However, from trying a lot of bits on the two of them (and our other horses), I think a LOT of "bit issues" are "understanding issues". Most people think horses break a bit down into various pressure points and then analyze those to figure out what the rider wants. I strongly believe horses MEMORIZE the total feel of a bit, and the rider, and use the total feel to determine what to do...
> ...Memorizing a bit instead of analyzing it means the rider may need to teach a horse the desired response if the new bit feels different. We think the horse doesn't like the bit when the horse is really just confused by it. It may be the same "class" bit, but I think horses sometimes need to memorize a new bit just because something about the bit is a little different...
> ...If I'm right about a horse memorizing the totality of a bit's feel, then many bit issues may be nothing more than the horse not knowing what to do. Remember, the horse alone decides how much pressure to respond to. The HORSE chooses the pressure at which he'll respond. But what if he doesn't know WHAT response will release the pressure? Then both horse and rider are in trouble...


I agree with this idea. It brings up something that might be discussed...how should we assess whether a horse dislikes a bit versus a horse is confused by a bit? It is important to be able to assess this, because in one case the horse needs more adapting to the bit and/or more training, and in the other case the bit is never going to work for the horse.

For one thing, I agree that a horse memorizes the totality of a bit, but also a horse might find one small aspect of a bit aggravating and that will mean the entire thing will not work as the person believes or intends that it should. 
Some of these things that I have experienced first hand: the movement of a bit is too much for the horse - it is too thick and the horse has a small mouth or large tongue - the port is too high and the horse has a low palate - it pinches somewhere - it weighs too much - the taste is bad to the horse (a rubber snaffle, for example) - it wraps around the tongue too much - it doesn't wrap around the tongue enough. 

A guideline I would suggest is that if the horse cannot hold the bit comfortably in the mouth even when the reins are not applied, the horse probably has an objection to something about the structure of the bit. This is not referring to the mouthing a green horse will do when introduced to a bit, but meaning a horse that is used to wearing bits. 

Another thing I look for is if the horse has an unusually strong reaction when the reins are used lightly. For example, if the reins are slightly pulled and the horse rears, spins or backs rapidly, there may be something about the bit that the horse will not be able to adapt to (speaking again of a trained horse). A horse that does not like the bit might also duck the head sharply or throw the nose up when the rider touches the reins, or chomp and salivate heavily, pinning the ears.

Conversely, horses might find things about a bit comfortable and clear that we have been told are uncomfortable or confusing. Such as direct reining in an unjointed curb (as @bsms mentioned), or riding with contact in a leverage bit or hackamore.

Something about horses I was told once that stuck with me is that they are expert mappers. We all notice how they memorize terrain and immediately notice one small difference in a landscape they have seen before. They have a huge talent for picking up on things that are different. I believe they apply this same mapping to training and riding. They can decide something is the same, such as how a bit works and feels with your technique, and add it effortlessly into their map. Or they can find one small difference and decide this is new territory.

I used to slog along trying to get horses to enjoy bits they didn't care for, working to make my hands better and my signals more clear. "But this is a mild bit!" I would tell myself, and blame everything else except the bit. I found that I could ride a horse for a year in a bit and have them fuss about it, then one day change to a bit the horse liked and immediately lose all the fussing and issues. So now I try to find each horse a bit they can carry comfortably and take signals from without being bothered.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"We all notice how they memorize terrain and immediately notice one small difference in a landscape they have seen before. They have a huge talent for picking up on things that are different." - @gottatrot

I remember how shocked I was when Mia spooked over a Palo Verde tree that had blossomed. Space Aliens! She got used to it. Then, two weeks later, spooked again after a wind had blown the blossoms away! She spooked once in the arena. Well, she spooked a lot of times in the arena, but in this case, the terrifying cause was a weed that had sprung up since our last arena ride.

Their memory is literally "inhuman"! We analyze. They memorize. I read a study of some birds that argued the birds used memory too, but their use of memory resulted in what looked like logical thought - only faster. Less accurate, but faster. That would help a prey animal to respond instantly.

I agree that something as small as a double-joint instead of single can cause them to think, "New experience". Or not. 

And thickness or weight or taste might cause one horse discomfort. Mia's favorite snaffle was the Waterford. Bandit is nearly unrideable in one. Both loathe hollow mouthpieces. Bandit is more sensitive to weight. I like riding in Wrangler jeans. Others find jeans unbearable. We all have individual preferences, including horses.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I have just been following along on this thread, but had a new experience yesterday with a bit change. So I will share. 

Background:

Chivas has always, in the nearly 8 years I have owned him, played with his bit. When I purchased him, I put him straight into the bit I have always used, a loose ring, double-joined, bean snaffle. 

He has always worked well in this bit, by that I mean accepting of contact when applied, turning easily with only a gentle squeeze of my hand, stopping with no issues. But all along, when he would be in stressful situations, he would chomp the bit. Like a person chewing gum. 

I have used this bit in different combinations of metal, on Chivas and other horses, with no change in reaction. I have several bridles for him, with the same bits except for different metals. I keep one in the barn, and two in the trailer. The metals are full copper mouth, only bean copper, and no copper (SS). 

Yesterday:

So I had been thinking, since he had grown so much, that his bit may be too small for his mouth (4 3/4" ) so ordered him a 5" and at the same time, decided to purchase a narrower diameter bit to see if he would prefer a smaller diameter bit. 


The only one I could find was a D ring, Hunter style bit. So, the bit has two joints and a copper bean. Only difference is the D sides and the thinness...or so I thought! 


Before riding, I tested him on the ground, with just gently turning his head side to side. He seemed fine, if thinking about the sensation a bit. He was not biting the bit. 


So we rode out, and I was careful to gently ask him for turns, stops, slowing and backing. 


I am not sure if he likes the bit when it is engaged. To just hold it in his mouth, he seemed happy. 


Backing he had the most objection. 


So I compared the bits again, after riding, and I think found the problem. The bean in the center is turned a different way from his normal bit. His normal bit has the fatter part of the bean resting on the tongue, the D bit has the narrow part of the bean resting on the tongue, which is what I think he objects to. 


I do have 5" bits just like his current one, so will try that next to see if my observation is correct. I do think he would prefer a thinner bit, but not sure about that. So breaking down all these parts of the bit into separate trails. 


However, I have been riding Chivas for nearly eight years, so I think I have a pretty good understanding of his reactions. 


At home I can ride him bitless in a sidepull or an S-hack no problem. Out on trails, I need to "bit him up" in the truest sense because he INSISTS on have a bit to chomp on. :smile:


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Great posts!
Thank goodness ya'll are articulate! I love the mapping reference and understanding the difference between dislike and not understanding. And what I was trying to convey earlier about the training and what the horse understands what the bit means to him.



I had always bashed the Tom Thumb and a lot of that came from my childhood. Every complete bridle set in a feed store came with one or a low port grazer style. And it seemed every kid rode in one, it became the trademark of the backyard yahoo. (Don't get me wrong, I did plenty of dumb stuff with my horses and not exempt from the backyard kid status..lol) Then the internet came along and the standard internet consensus was all single jointed mouthpieces are evil and especially the Tom Thumb. Anymore, I just don't care. If it makes you and your horse happy, ride in it. I won't jump up and down and call someone a horse abuser.



It is amazing how the subtle differences in bits make a big difference to a horse. I had two loose ring snaffles both double jointed with a lifesaver. Same diameter, same weight, the only difference being the lifesaver on one was slightly oval, the other is round with two copper rings on the lifesaver. I didn't think they were different enough to worry about, horses and especially Hooey preferred the round lifesaver with the copper rings. I believe I sold the other. 



We have a rack of bridles with very similar mouthpieces, half breed. Some are center hung on the cheek pieces, some not. Staples a little wider, a little taller but they all can ride very different.


We want to put bits in neat little categories but I guess it just doesn't work that way.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I've ridden many, many horses in tom thumb bits without a bit of problem. (pun intended)

Suddenly, I read that they are horrible, very harsh bits. I never once believed it, because of the way all my horses reacted to it. Or should I say they never "over-reacted" to a Tom Thumb bit. Never. Not one horse. I always considered it a gentle bit, and I still do. I used it as a transition bit from snaffle to curb. 


They all went much better in the Tom Thumb then they did in that basic, comes with the bridle, curb bit. Lots of folks used that basic curb, it was all most of us had as a curb. 

Then they started getting fancy curbs, for those showing. About the same time people quit showing in plaid shirts and jeans and changed to glitter and glam shirts :rofl:


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The Tom Thumb is fine for a broke horse that you're not asking anything specialized with. If he's doing just fine for you toodling down the trail or pleasure riding, have at it. But for training, advanced maneuvers, or starting colts, there are SO MANY bits out there that offer a much clearer signal, and work much better. For a horse really accustomed to working with a bit that releases ALL pressure when he does the right thing, it can be very confusing for him. I equate it with a pair of gym shoes. They work just fine for walking around the neighborhood, a short weekend hike, or running with your kids on the playground, but if you want to take up marathon running, all-terrain hiking, or ballet there are MUCH more suitable and better shoes you can wear. The same with bits. Some do just fine for what most people do-- but if you're doing something more specialized or extreme, do yourself and the horse a favor and get something that works better and is more comfortable.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> The Tom Thumb is fine for a broke horse that you're not asking anything specialized with. If he's doing just fine for you toodling down the trail or pleasure riding, have at it. But for training, advanced maneuvers, or starting colts, there are SO MANY bits out there that offer a much clearer signal, and work much better. For a horse really accustomed to working with a bit that releases ALL pressure when he does the right thing, it can be very confusing for him. I equate it with a pair of gym shoes. They work just fine for walking around the neighborhood, a short weekend hike, or running with your kids on the playground, but if you want to take up marathon running, all-terrain hiking, or ballet there are MUCH more suitable and better shoes you can wear. The same with bits. Some do just fine for what most people do-- but if you're doing something more specialized or extreme, do yourself and the horse a favor and get something that works better and is more comfortable.


I'm not sure if I even have one anymore. I mainly ride with a double jointed snaffle now, or a side pull. 

I will say, there is not a thing I can't do, specialized, with a snaffle except for things that require a different bit, such as 4th level and above require a double bridle. But I am quite adapt with a double bridle too. 

Or used to do anything in a snaffle, I should say. Now, your term of "toodling down the trail" is mostly what I do. One of the perks of getting old...harsh to hear you describe my riding now that way, but if the shoe fits...pun intended again 


Of course Chivas is not keen on "toodling", he much prefers a good run through the mountains, and I will admit, walking hurts my bum knee more than moving along at a good clip.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I used to have very set notions about bits. Snaffles for anything young or English. Aluminum grazer for anything Western. 

That was it. No discussion.

Then I needed work, so learned to keep my mouth shut. And that led to me watching more. 

Now I'm amazed, and really enjoy seeing good horsemen use a wide variety of bits, etc. with great outcomes. 

On the lowly Tom Thumb, one of my favorite rancher friends starts and finishes his horses in them. We ran cattle together for a few years. 

His horses were great. Sorting, roping, handy horses. Someone told him those were awful bits. He went over and asked four of his ranch horses if that was true. They didn't say "yes" so he still uses it.

It wouldn't be my way of doing things, but it works for him and his good horses.

And just to mess with any notions I may still have, my newest horse likes a "floating spoon" bit. Seriously?


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I just don't really understand all the hate against Tom Thumb bits. There are so many shanked bits with broken mouth pieces, most of which are much more severe r/t the length of shank and thin bit. 

Take a walking horse bit for instance. The typical one is double twisted, with offset breaks and eight inch long shanks. How is that bit ok (or maybe folks think it isn't ok) when it has longer shanks than a Tom Thumb? Longer shanks = more leverage, correct? 

Here are pictures to compare: Tom Thumb on left, Walking horse bit on right


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

AnitaAnne said:


> I've ridden many, many horses in tom thumb bits without a bit of problem. (pun intended)
> 
> Suddenly, I read that they are horrible, very harsh bits. I never once believed it, because of the way all my horses reacted to it. Or should I say they never "over-reacted" to a Tom Thumb bit. Never. Not one horse. I always considered it a gentle bit, and I still do. I used it as a transition bit from snaffle to curb.
> 
> ...



Well. Superman came to us using a Tom Thumb. My boss, who is a lifelong horseman, also gave me one of his he wasn't using anymore. He explained how it works to me and said: In the wrong hands, this bit will tear a horse's mouth up. Do not panic jerk the reins or hang on the reins or tight rein any horse with this bit in their mouth (thereby keeping the bit engaged). 



I went home and looked up the bits, read more on them. I'm not entirely convinced they're a horrible horrible bit, and with a few small changes, they improve drastically (are the shanks straight or swept back? How long are they? Longer and swept back is better - telegraphing intent takes a half second longer, and the horse has time to understand what's coming, IIUC). The nutcracker action combined with the rotation from the shanks is what can send a confusing signal if the horse isn't familiar with the bit signals and if the rider doesn't know what they're doing.

And I've seen what it can do in the wrong hands - it is one of my deepest regrets and a sin someone else committed, but Trigger forgave me for. I had several in my previously owned but still new tack vending inventory, all laid out on the table at the youth rodeo finals last autumn - I had at least a half dozen cowboys I knew well pick them up, shake their head, and say: Won't nothin' like that ever go in _my_ horse's mouth. Them ain't worth nothing but selling for scrap..." My take away from their tone and facial expressions was that it's not because they're super gentle bits, quite the contrary.


Trigger's favorite bit LOOKS like a Tom Thumb - it's made by Cactus Saddlery (Well - has their brand stamp on it), but the shanks are a little longer, swept back just a little, and it has a life-saver ring to make the mouthpiece a three piece. It puts pressure on the jaw (With a properly fitted curb chain), the poll, and the bars, without the rotation and nutcracker action. That bit got a lot of approval from my ranch rodeo friends, and they bought all the others I had - I held back 2 for my own use because Cactus doesn't make them any more. 



Would he go okay in a Tom Thumb, in the right hands (mine?) maybe... maybe not. He may now associate them with hard hands and abuse, IDK. For him, I'll continue to use the life saver bit, for Superman? Or Gina? A Tom Thumb is just fine and dandy.



So. TL;dr - Final verdict from me: There are other bits out there that get the job done but are more forgiving, especially for beginner to low-intermediate level riders. Flip side: If your horse is used to one, goes well in one, and you understand the mechanics of one, and have soft hands, by all means, use away.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I prefer - and I think Bandit prefers - a Billy Allen to the Tom Thumb. I just found out yesterday I still have the TT in a bag of bits in the garage. Keep a bunch there because my wife gets a little tense when she sees 30 bits sitting on a shelf when we only have 3 horses! But...I used it on Bandit's second ride in a curb & it wasn't a problem. Didn't confuse him. That doesn't make it better, or even as good as, some other designs.

AND Bandit wasn't being asked to do advanced anything in one, nor do I ever ride him where I ask for lots of things via the bit. I guess we're mostly toodlers. Just toodling down the trail with Bandit can sometimes get tense enough to peg my fun meter, but I hope we're drifting to being better toodlers.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

COWCHICK77 said:


> it became the trademark of the backyard yahoo.



*Indignant Sniff*


That's ******* Equestrian, thank you.






:rofl:


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

AnitaAnne said:


> I just don't really understand all the hate against Tom Thumb bits. There are so many shanked bits with broken mouth pieces, most of which are much more severe r/t the length of shank and thin bit.



It's not the broken mouthpiece, it's the arrow-straight shanks on a TT that never fully release pressure on the horse and that engage without any signal. No matter what he does in a TT, there is still some pressure because the shanks are not swept back at all, and the curb will be engaged. The TT does not give a clear signal or release, and I've actually seen them flip the shanks above the mouthpiece as the horse tosses his head to escape it. No thanks. Nothing wrong with a broken mouthpiece on a shank bit if it works for your horse; I have a couple and use them and my horses like them, but I will not use a TT. If you MUST use a TT, use a bit hobble on the shanks to stabilize it so it can't twist around in the mouth with one shank up and one down. Been there seen that. Not pretty. There are similar bits that are much nicer balanced and suitable. There's really no need to use a TT with the other options out there. 

There is a huge difference between, say, a TT and this; the difference is minor, but it makes a big difference in how the bit works and releases, and the signal it gives.:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I am sorry @Silver Maple but I cannot logically understand how a TT bit can have one shank upside down. 

Not trying to be argumentative here, just really don't understand. The curb strap should stop any 180 degree rotation. 


When using the bit, can use it as a direct rein (single rein) or a curb (both reins) 


Anyway, I am old. This bit was a real marvel when it came out. Now there are hundreds of different bits, so much more research has gone into the study and design of bits. Just a lot different times then.

A horse is a very sensitive animal. It can feel a fly. I am fairly certain that any and all movement of the reins is felt by every horse. IMO a "warning" occurs with every bit, with the right hands. 

Also I spent a lot of time retraining horses. A change in bit was (and is) generally the first thing I'd do.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I took a picture of the two double jointed bean snaffles to show the differences. 

The loose ring is Chivas (and the others) normal bit. The D ring is the one I thought was the same, except thinner. Closer inspection shows why Chivas did not like the D-ring. The loop on the side bars will press on his tongue when engaged. I can clearly see why he didn't like it!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

AnitaAnne said:


> I am sorry @*Silver* Maple but I cannot logically understand how a TT bit can have one shank upside down.
> 
> Not trying to be argumentative here, just really don't understand. The curb strap should stop any 180 degree rotation.
> 
> .



But it doesn't. The curb strap and headstall don't keep the bit from flipping up. I have a TT in my tack trunk. If I get time this weekend I'll get a photo and show you how it happens.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> It's not the broken mouthpiece, it's the arrow-straight shanks on a TT that never fully release pressure on the horse and that engage without any signal. No matter what he does in a TT, there is still some pressure because the shanks are not swept back at all, and the curb will be engaged...


First, a horse who carries his head more vertically will find a straight shank better balanced than one who sticks his nose further out. Mia tended to carry her head at 45 degrees. Bandit tends to carry his at 30 degrees. 

Second, it is up to the rider to adjust the curb strap. I generally shoot for 45-60 degrees of rotation before the curb strap tightens. With Mia in a Tom Thumb, since it was NOT well balanced for her preferred head position, that meant a looser curb strap with a Tom Thumb.

There are many accepted bits with equally straight shanks:










I forget who made this bit:










Bandit in a Reinsman Tom Thumb. Relaxed horse, TT, loose curb strap. Little bit of "foam" because he'd been eating with the bit in his mouth:










For whatever reason, Bandit in a curb often relaxes more when the curb strap is starting to tighten. His choice. Not mine. It is hard to ride him with totally slack reins because he gets tense about it. So we often don't.

Here is the Reinsman Tom Thumb and Mia's favorite Billy Allen together. There is a small difference in straightness, but not as much as people expect:










PS: It is absolutely impossible to flip the shanks 180 degrees with Bandit's Tom Thumb. Think the picture shows it is impossible. After all, one DOES adjust the curb strap so it STOPS rotating at 45-60 degrees. If one removes the curb strap...well, IIRC, the AQHA fines that under "cruelty"...


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Bandit's Tom Thumb is not technically the original TT. The shanks are swept back a touch on his, negating most of the issues. Many are not-- the shanks are straight. Those are much more likely to be problematic. I would not consider your bit to be a TT, bsms. Many of the manufacturers have added some sweep to the shanks without changing the bit's name.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@bsms Bandit may prefer a little tension on the curb strap just because he used to race. Probably is just used to the contact from his race days. 


I never used a TT with contact, reins were always loose. Well, except on a gaited horse we had. In a show ring, he had to be on contact. But I still maintain a TT is gentler than the gaited bits I see in shows.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It is hard to find a Tom Thumb bit that is totally straight. Weaver makes a cheap one that comes very close:










The original was used with English horses where a vertical face was desired. The basic design is very close to a Pelham. I'd agree it isn't optimum, but Mark Rashid's famous article is just nonsense:



> However, because the rein is attached to the bottom of a swiveling shank, pulling on the rein results in the shank turning and tipping into the left side of the horse's face. When the shank tips, it also shifts the mouthpiece, which, in turn, puts pressure on the right side of the horse's mouth by pulling the right side of the bit into it. You now have pressure on both sides of the horse's mouth, as well as a shifting of the mouthpiece inside the mouth.
> 
> If this wasn't bad enough, tipping the shank also results in the tightening up of the curb strap that is under the horse's chin. Suddenly, the simple act of asking the horse to turn to the left is no longer a simple act. The bit is applying so much pressure in so many places, that the horse has no clue as to what you were asking for in the first place.
> 
> ...


Note Rashid's objections largely apply to all Billy Allen curbs...

Like a lot of other bits discussed on this thread, the fact is a lot of horses do fine in one. Depends on horse, rider & goals. By definition, what HAS been done CAN be done. I'm not arguing anyone needs to go buy one and use one, but lots of horses have ridden fine their entire lives with one.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The Tom Thumb @bsms posted above that Weaver makes is the bit I think of when someone says "Tom Thumb". 
The D's and swept back shanks change the balance of the bit, in my opinion, on the other examples. (Plus the Ds give the option of double reins.) But still the single jointed mouthpiece that gets cussed..lol..

I remember seeing the double mouthpieces that @AnitaAnne posted with the walker horse shanks more as a kid.
Not the twisted wire but smooth, typically used for horses with cut tongues as there wasn't a walking horse around that I knew of.

I have a Billy Allen and I thought Stilts would like it when we went from the snaffle to a shanked bit. He didn't. I rode a few other horses with it and they got along fine with it. Stilts preferred a sweet-water or mullen and even though he doesn't like a whole lot of moving parts he went well in a three piece dog bone with short shanks. 

All I can say is, I'm glad I'm a bit hoarder so I have plenty to try and choose from...lol


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

I have enjoyed catching up on this thread after my hiatus! I also took my mare (who was riding in the jr cow horse with the dog bone smooth mouthpiece) on a trail ride at Catalina State Park (absolutely beautiful) on New Years Day with my ladies riding group, and it was a horrible time. She pulled on the bit the whole time and was flipping her head up to the point I asked one of the gals to stay ahead of me in case she flipped them over so she could give me an assist. She would not stay at a walk and was prancing and dancing constantly. It was not relaxing at all, but it was also our third time on a trail. 

I had also recently bought a Carol Goosetree Simplicity II bit to try as she needs less rate going around barrels and this bit was recommended to me. I hope I did the image correctly. 









I rode her yesterday in this bit and she was phenomenal. Now I fully realize it could be the difference between riding in the arena at the barn and being on the trail. But she did make better turns without breaking stride, so I am hopeful that this bit may help with that. I ran her at a barrel race in December and she rated far too hard around the barrels to the point she was breaking stride and costing us time, so we've been working on that. I run her again tomorrow, so we will see if we've resolved that issue. This new bit has a lot more gag than the JR. cow horse, but she seems to be appreciative of it as it has more 'warning'. Also I do use a tie down on the barrel pattern. I do it because she is big and powerful so she needs it coming out of those turns. When I have practiced on her with any speed she feels for it and is less balanced. She was also started as a head horse so she is used to it. I do not use the tie down when trail riding, nor do I use it every time we ride in the arena. I did add the curb chain but it's pretty loose. 

Sorry this post is so scattered. It's been quite a month.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Late to this party, but... That picture is AWESOME.



I am late to respond, but thank you. It is my fave of the whole year; captured at a perfect moment!




AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Also, Jr Cowhorse with a smooth 3 piece mouth seems to make ALL our horses happy and seems to have a broad range of activities you can do in one. No one fusses or tries to get away from it, no one throws their head or tries to chew it. Everyone just moves on down the trail like it isn't there.



I too have used a Jr Cowhorse on a lot of different horses, and almost all of them have gone very well in it, but I will say that Dexter has been extremely particular and he did not like the Jr. Cowhorse at all. The only thing he likes and goes well in, is a super cheap bit I got on horse . com *shrug* Oh well, he goes fine it in, so he just wears that for everything!




therhondamarie said:


> I also took my mare (who was riding in the jr cow horse with the dog bone smooth mouthpiece) on a trail ride ... and it was a horrible time.
> 
> She pulled on the bit the whole time and was flipping her head up to the point
> 
> but it was also our third time on a trail.



Do you normally just do arena work? And little to no trail rding?


Sounds like it had less to do with the bit in her mouth and more with that she needs more miles on the trail. For me, this is the type of situation I will "bit up" if needed. The horse needs to have miles to get better at trail riding, but I also need to know I have control. I don't have to engage or use the "bigger bit" but it's good to have just in case.







therhondamarie said:


> I had also recently bought a Carol Goosetree Simplicity II bit to try as she needs less rate going around barrels and this bit was recommended to me.
> 
> But she did make better turns without breaking stride, so I am hopeful that this bit may help with that. I ran her at a barrel race in December and she rated far too hard around the barrels to the point she was breaking stride and costing us time, so we've been working on that. I run her again tomorrow, so we will see if we've resolved that issue.


I used to have the regular Simplicity and it didn't really work all that well for Red or Shotgun. They do better in the Jr Cowhorse. Maybe it's how I ride. I've just never done real well with that much gag. But Carol has nicely designed quality bits, and I know many people that they work very well for.


Of course this is off topic to the bit discussion but also remember to watch your BODY POSITION along with trying the new bit. Most of the time, when they rate too soon, it's because the rider is asking them to rate too soon (I am guilty of this as well, especially in indoor pens). Stay two-handed longer and don't even think "turn" or grab the the horn until you are already at the barrel. For a ratey horse, they're already thinking turn.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The three to the right are the bits I use 90% of the time, with the addition of one loose-ring copper snaffle that isn't in the shot. The jointed-mouth curb, and the low-port curb will work on nearly any horse. The medium-port curb with the romal is for a broke horse who is 100% solid on a neck rein and knows how to carry himself properly. 

For a horse I don't know, I'll nearly always use the low-port curb. It is a very mild bit, but has enough leverage to get a horse's attention if he tries to run through it. You can add another rein and ride with two reins if needed, or run a draw-rein through the top ring if needed. I reschooled a lot of 'blown out' arena horses in that setup, and it works very well. I've never had a horse that didn't relax and go well in that bit after a few rides. If the horse might need a little more riding two-handed, the jointed-mouth bit allows that more easily than the solid mouth and helps keep a horse's shoulders up and doesn't let him brace his neck against it, but also is very forgiving and soft on a horse who is ready for one-handed riding and neck-reining, too. Both bits are comfortable for the horse, well-balanced, and versatile. If I could only have three bits in my barn, it would be these two and the o-ring snaffle.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Very nice Silver Maple!

It's probably been done before, maybe even by me, but it would be cool to have a "favorite bits" thread. 

I used to ride any horse I had (non-gaited) in that broken mouth curb/Argentine snaffle in your photo. I have one nearly identical to it (just the silver decorations are different). 

Then, when I got my first gaited horse, I went to a low port curb, because my neighbor with Fox Trotters said that's what they went best in. And you know what, they do, and that is now my favorite bit! Shorter shanks and ports of varying sizes but they all seem to work fabulous on the various Fox Trotters I've ridden.

I went through a "Myler" phase, because my last two horses did awesome in the little HBT shank with the #33 mouthpiece. But my current Fox Trotter mare actually seems to do better with less moving parts. So I ride with either a grazer or a grazer with loose cheeks. I discovered she even does awesome in a kimberwick. Which makes sense but it certainly gives a different "look" for someone who rides western!

The only bits everyone seems to love that I have never had good luck in is snaffles. I've tried to like them, I really have. But they just seem to encourage a raised head and/or rooting. But I mainly just trail ride on broke horses, so curb bits with short shanks just work perfect for me.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I rode my friend's OTTB in the Wonder gag bit again yesterday. I thought I would include a couple of photos to show how he goes in it.
The bit is similar to this:









It is a little difficult to see in the close up, but I wanted to point out that the horse is not wearing a noseband, and his mouth is closed even though we are going down a steep hill and I do have a little pressure on the bit in the pictures.
It obviously is not making his raise his head or poke his nose out. 
Some of the videos on Youtube make it look like the horse will have the bit raise up far in the mouth when the reins are pulled, but it does not sit with the shank parallel to the horse's mouth even when the reins are loose on this horse (probably due to where he carries his head), and it also does not pull hard on the horse until after there is a significant rotation. 
So even though the shanks are rotated a bit here, you can see my reins are not taut, and the horse is not getting pulled on in the mouth significantly.


















Throughout the ride in this bit, the horse tended to keep his head and neck in this posture. For most of the ride he was on a loose rein, and I never asked him to carry his head any certain way, but only asked him to respond to cues and gave him release whenever he complied.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

Do you normally just do arena work? And little to no trail rding?


Sounds like it had less to do with the bit in her mouth and more with that she needs more miles on the trail. For me, this is the type of situation I will "bit up" if needed. The horse needs to have miles to get better at trail riding, but I also need to know I have control. I don't have to engage or use the "bigger bit" but it's good to have just in case.

____
So prior to me owning her she had been on trails 2-3 times in her life. I took her on trails the day I tried her out, and she was just really hot and wanting to go go go. I've gotten her to mellow out quite a bit, but where the barn is there is only one wash to ride in and you have to go about half a mile down a pretty busy road to get to it. I've taken her out there once, but I am just a little too nervous to ride alone out there and go alongside the road with her inexperience. 

I've ridden her twice on eq. trails in national parks. Once we ended up being cut short because of rain and seeing a mountain lion. Then this ride with these ladies. So yes she definitely needs miles on the trail. I agree about bitting up on the trail just because if I do need it then I'd like to have the whoa power. 

I've been videoing practice runs to make sure I'm not causing her to rate too soon with my hands. I honestly think she's such an anticipatory horse that I need to focus a lot on my body position and me not anticipating. She is smart and wants to figure out what i'm asking then she does it before I ask.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Tried a ride with an AQHA gelding with a tendency to overpower his rider (she is one handed and he can be quite strong) in a gag bit. This one had quite a lot of slide to it. After being put out that he could no longer pull the reins out of her hands or her up onto the neck, we went lovely for her and we played with some dressage concepts and introduced leg yield and using spiral in and spiral out on a circle with a canter transition. He seemed happy with the bit and gaped his mouth a lot less than he usually does and he quit his habit of flicking his head up and down in the canter. 

After she rode I hopped on. Please enjoy this rendition of "my equitation goes to death when it's cold"....oh those shoulders hunched against the winter air... and take a minute to notice that the aqha was able to come into the contact with confidence and begin the steps to working over the back. He is still a bit green to this kind of work and tends to be unbalanced to the forehand, but I think these images show that the gag isn't a "proper mechanics destructive agent" in this case it was a good bit for this horse and rider combo. 


Note. In case it was not clear- not sharing pictures of my friend riding with the bit- That's I'm fairly certain against HF rules.


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## Jolly101 (Jul 2, 2018)

I've only skimmed parts of this thread, so I apologize If I may be missing information. I'll come back after I've read more  Generally, I've found that 'strong horses' are in fact horses resistant to the bit or with holes in their training, as long as they have a bit they are comfortable with. I say generally because I am not accounting for situations in which a horse becomes excited or has some sort of physical issue, such as body misalignment or improper saddle fit. However, these are usually temporary to an extent where fixing cause will fix most of the issue. There are also those that are hot and can be a strong ride, despite training, but for this, I will stick to talking about non-hot horses. 

My experience with this is that It will take time, perhaps a lot of time to go back and address the root cause of the issue. That time will depend on your own learning curve and consistency. That may not be what you want to hear, but It is true. I was once in the same situation, with a horse that instead would go too 'soft' or gape as an evasion. Luckily my horse was still very responsive to seat, but there was virtually nothing I could do to have him take contact again until he wanted to. I tried several different quick fixes in which many provided a temporary solution, but only going back to basics without time constraints permanently fixed the issue. Since that lesson, I've been able to apply the same concept to help other horses with reluctance to correct contact such as running through the bit, becoming heavy, and ignoring the bit etc. A different approach was used with each horse depending on what needed to be worked on, but I used the same concept of going back to basics and teaching them what it means to truly connect with the bit. The horses that did not keep to the changes were the ones who had constraints put on them, and the owners for one reason or another wanted to speed up the process and expected a certain level of performance without building the blocks to it. These horses eventually went back to their evasions as a means to escape that pressure. 

From the strong horses I've encountered, I've found that it takes more time to establish 'seat' and contact, because they are more likely to ignore in favor for speed. Desensitization was also more of a focus with those who were sensitive. I've found there are two types of speedy horses: (1) the horse that runs through contact and goes behind the bit and (2) the horse that goes heavy and pulls the bit. Contact needs to be made a place that they want to go to and their idea. To do that, it may take several short (+/- 15 min) rides/ in hand work, which stops when the horse goes properly into contact, and each extends very slightly in duration of holding contact so a horse sees contact as a positive thing. Then, once that is established at a walk and the horse comes back with seat without rein, then lateral work begins. Lateral work is a riders friend when it comes to strong horses. Being able to perform easy laterals is what helps bring a horse back to focusing and engaging the hind end= slower and more control. You should be able to do responsive laterals on a loose rein with your weight and leg aids before you add speed on these types of horses in my opinion because they are a tool to help harness that energy. 

With each horse, I started on the ground to instill concepts before teaching them undersaddle. Then at the walk until I was confident the concept was firmly established, then I'd add speed (first a few strides and slowly added). My horse took mabye 3 months, others took longer, but I also was not working with them as frequently. Generally, the strong horses took longer, but not much longer, as long as they were under a good diet and work schedule. I'm sure that there are other ways to deal with the issue and horses that do not fit into these categories, but this is what I've experienced and It seems to work.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Jolly101 said:


> Lateral work is a riders friend when it comes to strong horses. Being able to perform easy laterals is what helps bring a horse back to focusing and engaging the hind end= slower and more control. You should be able to do responsive laterals on a loose rein with your weight and leg aids before you add speed on these types of horses in my opinion because they are a tool to help harness that energy.


Laterals are useful for horses to "harness" energy until a very athletic horse gets very fit and balanced. At that point laterals become a useful way for the rider to help the horse burn through some excesss energy at times, but at other times they become a fun way for the horse to make things more exciting for the rider.

With very athletic horses the progression is as you said: responsive laterals on weight and leg aids, then when they are solid, add speed, then the horse gets extremely fit by being ridden for many miles and doing laterals along with hill work and galloping. An example might be an event horse.

After that, the horse may show you that for example, if you ask him to bend and engage while slowing to a trot, he can instead do canter half pass. Sometimes he may progress forward more slowly, but put his energy into making the canter very high, or offer flying changes.

While it is difficult not to laugh when horses are talented enough to be this type of naughty, sometimes a stronger bit may be useful to curtail these activities.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

I'll be coming back eventually - we've been battling the bitter Montana winter for the past few weeks and then _just_ as it started to clear up and go through a warm spot I came down with a nasty cold. Now all my horses are fresh, snotty, and a little bratty. I've been out a few times doing groundwork and some desensitization, but have been unable to find proper time to ride + catch the horses with work and the cold.  The gelding I'd like to mess with next with a gag is currently out on winter pasture(He's a trail horse known for being heavy and leaning on the bit, but a very sweet boy.) with 30 other geldings.... so catching the little dude is rather difficult sometimes. Hopefully, this Friday I'll have some time to grab him and try things out(he's also a bit quieter than my mare, so I can actually attempt to get a few pictures or a video on the mechanics to look at instead of dealing with Ms. Head-Tosser.). 

Moving on from that - I came across this article about bits and bitting, and while I think some of the talk about bit seats is rather barbaric(If your bit is bumping up against the teeth so consistently that you need bit seats, you've got a much larger problem than the horse's teeth.), it has radiographs of a snaffle, curb, broken curb, and two gag bits action in the mouth. The gag is the only bit that ever touches the molars when under pressure, other than the full bridle(which, given it has two bits - isn't any better, but at least it makes sense. There's not a whole lot of room for two bits in the horse's mouth.)

https://damascusequine.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/AnOverviewOfBitsAndBitting.pdf

Also, a quote: _"It might be thought that the gag functions to lower the head because tension on the reins
places pressure on the poll. But, because the horse's mouth is much more sensitive to
pressure than is its poll, the net effect of the gag bit, used with no auxiliary aids, is to
accentuate the basic head-raising action of a snaffle bit.2" _

Obviously, response to poll pressure varies per horse. The young barrel racers in gags have horses with high headsets and crazy eyes. The eventers and polo players are the same. A working western horse, on the other hand, is valued more if he's able to move around and listen without jacking his face up in the air, so he's likely taught a bit more response to poll pressure than your Average Joe's horse. My horse is very sensitive and has been taught to give to poll pressure if I ask, so she's more likely to tuck under and curl her neck than a horse who's been pulled fresh off the pasture. But beyond that, that's been the only slightly more "legitimate" article I can find that directly mentions gags. Most only bother to go over a snaffle and a curb and just tend to ignore the rest. Considering bitting is typically such a... well, _loud_ topic(I'm glad no one has gotten loud here yet.. I might believe in certain things but I do try to stay civil and open-minded until I'm proven otherwise with good evidence.) as well I wouldn't doubt if people are hesitant to breach any sort of conversation on _anything_ beyond what's universally known or despised(ex - the Tom Thumb). 

Another thing I'd like to point out is that so far, we've really only talked about the gag in regards to trail rides/etc, with the exception of @lostastirrup. A horse can be comfortable in just about anything on the trail, if the amount of trail riders using TT's or gigantic gaited bits says anything(The amount of leverage on those things frankly scares me away from ever attempting to ride with one for curiosity's sake - if I fall off or get off balance I could very well damage my horse's mouth beyond repair and I'm not willing to take that risk.). Try working or training in those bits.... you'll get a different result. My horse probably would have been fine after a half an hour or so if I'd ridden her off on a loose rein in the gag for a nice trail ride, but trying to train and actually establish any sense of contact was a different story. Part of the thing that I dislike about gags the most is that it's _so easy_ to rotate them. You apply just a little contact, and they start sliding up. If I were to apply the amount of contact it takes to guide my mare at a decent clip around a barrel pattern - the slide could be very easily all the way engaged. And so far we've shown that no one really want to fully engage the gag. (I also find it quite telling that of all the bits - gags are the ones that we see the crazy extremes in. I'm not talking your standard "Wonder Bit" or Dutch Gag that's found just about everywhere - I'm talking the 6-inch slide gag with a chain mouthpiece(chain is another dislike of mine.... mostly because yeah, it conforms to the horse's mouth - but the horse also can't ever carry it himself. That, and the pinch factor.), floating port, and no curb strap. I don't think you can introduce a bit like that in any way and not look at it and say "Looks scary. I wonder if it is?" somewhere along the line. I've seen some crazy snaffles(the hinged or ball-joint ones are... nasty, very pinchy things. I've heard of the ball-joint taking the tip of a guy's finger off. Like, no sir, not going anywhere near a mouth. :| ) and curbs(5 inch cathedral. Yeah... not for me. Spades I have no problem with, as long as your horse is ready. But sticking that amount of port in there without it being a real spade is just asking for a nice little hole in your horse's palate in my opinion.), but nothing like some of the gags I've seen. It's ridiculous. Worst part is - they're used more commonly that snaffles where I grew up. Every horse and rider may be different... but there comes of point in which you're just looking for a big "no brakes" band-aid to slap on your horse.)

So, enjoy picking through my late night thoughts and have a good night, everyone.  (Cross your fingers the snow will go away - I desperately want to be able to ride my track in the fields again without having to worry about ice/snow/getting over icy, overflown ditches. It's no fun trying to get in a good ride while making sure you're not about to go ice skating at the same time on a temperamental 900lb animal.)


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> Part of the thing that I dislike about gags the most is that it's _so easy_ to rotate them. You apply just a little contact, and they start sliding up. If I were to apply the amount of contact it takes to guide my mare at a decent clip around a barrel pattern - the slide could be very easily all the way engaged. And so far we've shown that no one really want to fully engage the gag. (I also find it quite telling that of all the bits - gags are the ones that we see the crazy extremes in. I'm not talking your standard "Wonder Bit" or Dutch Gag that's found just about everywhere - I'm talking the 6-inch slide gag with a chain mouthpiece(chain is another dislike of mine.... mostly because yeah, it conforms to the horse's mouth - but the horse also can't ever carry it himself. That, and the pinch factor.), floating port, and no curb strap. I don't think you can introduce a bit like that in any way and not look at it and say "Looks scary. I wonder if it is?" somewhere along the line.


I think you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. Gags are not the only bits we see extremes in. There are very nice curb bits and many uses for them, but curbs have many severe variations. If you dislike gag bits because they have nasty variations, then you should dislike curb bits also. 








To be technical, a spade bit is also a curb bit.

I think what you dislike about gags is also what can make them so useful. It is so easy to rotate them, but that means they are giving the horse signal before they begin applying pressure. So the horse has the opportunity to respond to the lightest pressure, and can avoid more pressure if they wish. These signal bits are only good for people who have good hands. What you're talking about..."the slide could be very easily all the way engaged..." is the very essence of having an independent seat. 
Of course no one wants to fully engage a gag. That's similar to saying no one wants to haul back hard on a long shanked curb. 
Yet we know curbs, used properly can be very gentle bits with lots of pre-signal. And used improperly are very uncomfortable.
The curb on this horse could be used very gently.









There are perhaps some bits that in and of themselves are not good, like some with sharp mouthpieces as you describe. However, I don't think you can throw out a whole category of bit, personally. 



The Equinest said:


> A horse can be comfortable in just about anything on the trail, if the amount of trail riders using TT's or gigantic gaited bits says anything(The amount of leverage on those things frankly scares me away from ever attempting to ride with one for curiosity's sake - if I fall off or get off balance I could very well damage my horse's mouth beyond repair and I'm not willing to take that risk.). Try working or training in those bits.... you'll get a different result. My horse probably would have been fine after a half an hour or so if I'd ridden her off on a loose rein in the gag for a nice trail ride, but trying to train and actually establish any sense of contact was a different story.


This also is some very broad generalization. First of all, you're assuming that trail riders using big bits have comfortable horses. Most people I see on trails with big bits are either uneducated and unable to tell if their horse is doing well or not, or else they are only walking on a loose rein so it doesn't particularly matter what their horse has in their mouth even if they don't have good hands. Or, their horse is well trained and responsive, and the bit is appropriate. 

However, this does not mean their horses would be comfortable if they began galloping and were hanging on to their horses' mouths. You're missing the point that bitting up would not be necessary if people were going on a loose rein for a nice trail ride...it is the galloping, jumping or faster work that can become too challenging to do with a horse in a snaffle, not the walk/jog/lope on a loose rein. 

Many people have horses both "working" and "training" on the trail, and your definition of doing either seems to indicate having a horse in a snaffle in an arena. Horses also work and train in curb bits (see reining horses), on loose reins or on contact. So I believe what you are meaning to say is that if you were to attempt to ride a horse in a gag bit while pushing them forward into a significant amount of contact (such as this rider below), that the horse would be uncomfortable and not respond well.









That would not be the occasion where you would need a gag bit though. It would be for a specific horse and/or rider, such as the horse @lostastirrup was riding, that was needing to be lighter for a rider who needs to ride with one hand. The horse was doing training in the gag bit, such as you describe, but the horse I was galloping on the trail was also doing a different form of training, learning to rate and transition and listen to the rider while being strong at the gallop.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

The Equinest said:


> A horse can be comfortable in just about anything on the trail ... Try working or training in those bits.... you'll get a different result.


If you want to get people 'loud,' continue assuming that trail riders don't work or train their horses.

I would welcome you to ride along with me on any conditioning ride or endurance event I participate in to see just how much work or training I am or am not doing.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@gottatrot

I didn't say gags were the only ones with extremes - all I said is that they seem to have the _most_ extremes, especially in the area I learned to ride. 

As for trail riding(@phantomhorse13), I've seen the most TT's/etc and other bits on amateur trail riders(in equine sports, they're less common even in amateurs). My point was simply that if you're just going to walk down a trail, and not really touch the reins - yeah, the horse can be pretty comfortable in a Tom Thumb. If you're trying to go - say, eventing, however - he's probably not going to be happy with you. There's a reason people don't like TT's. That was the point I was trying to make. By no means do trail riders not train their horses - but like I said, if you're trying to train a horse in a TT he's probably not going to be very happy - while if you're jogging down the trail, a loose rein in hand, he probably won't mind. I grew up riding in TT's in the mountains, and only till I got older did I ever consider them bad bits. The reason? I was riding well-trained horses that _could_ go on a trail ride on a loose rein, and I didn't have the experience to ever try training them myself.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

phantomhorse13 said:


> If you want to get people 'loud,' continue assuming that trail riders don't work or train their horses.
> 
> I would welcome you to ride along with me on any conditioning ride or endurance event I participate in to see just how much work or training I am or am not doing.


Yeah nothing aggravates me more then just a trail horse comments. That just walk on the trails on a loose rein. This is why I don't respond to certain posters ,not worth your time and energy. 

My horse works hard and is well trained and he's just a trail horse. I've let a few people ride him who claimed they were good riders. Ice proved them wrong 😂 😂 funny thing is they never again ,bragged about their skills as a rider. 

Ice never lies when it comes to a riders ability,or lack there of. He knows as soon as they get on.

I'd love to ride with you on a training ride,I know all the work you put into your horses training. Dang I wish I was closer to you.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_if you're trying to train a horse in a TT he's probably not going to be very happy_"

Training for what? Training for dressage? Then I largely agree. 

Setting an upper limit of acceptable behavior until the horse learns self-control? Then a TT will work fine, as most western curb bits will. Certainly better than George Morris's advice to use a double twisted wire snaffle on a bolter! 

Monty Roberts wrote a ridiculous article years ago attacking not just Tom Thumb bits, but any curb with swiveling shanks. Until then, TT's were common go-to bits. Now people act as if TT bits are pure evil. But I've tried them and the 4 horses I've tried them on have no concerns.

One approach to training a horse is constant contact to control him. Another is setting upper and lower limits of acceptable behavior until the horse learns to control himself. And since some horses WILL sometimes get very excited, without a lot of warning, it can be reasonable to use a bit that helps set limits even on a horse who rarely needs them set. For safety's sake.

One cannot separate the bit design from how it is intended to be used. What makes sense in one scenario may be utterly wrong in another. That is a rider skill question. When I wrote on HF that I was going to try a curb bit with Mia, at least 95% of the responses of "experienced riders" was that I'd destroy Mia. It didn't! It made her a calmer, saner, happier horse. 

What I heard over and over was that I needed to ride Mia in the arena until she was "soft", and that the softness in the arena would somehow carry over to the open trail. That wasn't even close to being true! She WAS soft in an arena. Heck, all she ultimately could DO in an arena was turn circles so why would she get excited?

What she needed to to go in harm's way - at least as SHE defined it - and learn we could survive, and that a gallop wasn't mind-bowing excitement. 10,000 hours of arena work wouldn't do it. And what I needed was some safety WHILE taking her out "in harm's way"!

BTW - I don't care about authorities saying gag bits will raise a horse's head. It doesn't match my experience, and I insist on all authorities bowing to what happens when I try it on my horse. I don't give a rat's patoot about how someone claims the dynamics of a bit will affect my horse, not compared to how he actually responds. *Let our horses teach us about riding!*

PS: In my experience, perhaps because I try to ride with the least frequent contact I can get, horses raise their heads because they are seeking release from pressure. That is a rider responsibility. The answer to a horse seeking release that way is two-fold:

First, INCREASE pressure when the head goes up while urging the horse forward. Then, THE MOMENT the horse lowers his head even an inch, give him total relief. Before long, the horse learns to LOWER his head to get relief and the star-gazing ends.

Second, learn to stop pulling so darn hard, and pulling so darn much! No horse ENJOYS running around inverted, unless the rider gives him no other choice.



> Chamberlin on Stargazing
> Riding and Schooling Horses​
> One rule which is unchanging in regard to the action of the rider's hands, but not in regard to their position, is as follows: *Whenever the horse places his head in a position other than the correct one, the hands are moved to where they can increase tension on the bit and make his mouth uncomfortable.* In these cases, they must be so placed that the horse cannot possible escape the bit's tension for a fraction of a second, until the rider permits it. When he ultimately seeks to avoid discomfort by putting his head in the correct position - *and then only* - the hands must soften immediately...In the first instances, it is better to let the reins go slack when rewarding the horse...
> 
> ...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> Laterals are useful for horses to "harness" energy until a very athletic horse gets very fit and balanced. At that point laterals become a useful way for the rider to help the horse burn through some excesss energy at times, but at other times they become a fun way for the horse to make things more exciting for the rider.
> 
> With very athletic horses the progression is as you said: responsive laterals on weight and leg aids, then when they are solid, add speed, then the horse gets extremely fit by being ridden for many miles and doing laterals along with hill work and galloping. An example might be an event horse.
> 
> ...


I got a Very Stern Lecture after a Dressage test in Macon Georgia one time by a high level judge who began by saying "I am aware that I am not supposed to judge based on what a horse does in the warm up, but I could not avoid seeing what your horse was doing." 

He went on to tell me how dangerous my horse was, and that I needed to get professional help :wink: 

Guess what my very fit, limber horse was doing??? 


Rearing in the warmup, flying sideways, and in general having a tizzy fit. It turned hot suddenly, and he was sweaty and ticked off! 


In the actual test, we did several flying changes, and much of our work was done at half pass in canter...um yeah, weren't we supposed to trot up the center line? I just kept following the pattern, even though we were not exactly in the correct gait. I actually got a 61 on that test, which shocked the heck out of me, but the work he did correctly, was very good...like extended canter :rofl: 


Btw, it was First level test three, No flying changes and No half pass at canter on the tests at that level. 


I got low rider marks, which really was quite unfair as I was doing everything humanly possible to keep that stinkin' horse in the arena :rofl:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

The Equinest said:


> @gottatrot
> 
> I didn't say gags were the only ones with extremes - all I said is that they seem to have the _most_ extremes, especially in the area I learned to ride.
> 
> As for trail riding(@phantomhorse13), I've seen the most TT's/etc and other bits on amateur trail riders(in equine sports, they're less common even in amateurs). My point was simply that if you're just going to walk down a trail, and not really touch the reins - yeah, the horse can be pretty comfortable in a Tom Thumb. If you're trying to go - say, eventing, however - he's probably not going to be happy with you. There's a reason people don't like TT's. That was the point I was trying to make. By no means do trail riders not train their horses - but like I said, if you're trying to train a horse in a TT he's probably not going to be very happy - while if you're jogging down the trail, a loose rein in hand, he probably won't mind. I grew up riding in TT's in the mountains, and only till I got older did I ever consider them bad bits. The reason? I was riding well-trained horses that _could_ go on a trail ride on a loose rein, and I didn't have the experience to ever try training them myself.


Well I have trained quite a few horses, and the Tom Thumb was the move up bit from a snaffle or more commonly a side pull. The horse was later put in a regular curb bit. The TT was used to train the action of the curb. It was the wonder bit at that time. 

I don't know who you ride with, or where, but I don't know too many riders just ambling along on the trail. 

Most serious trail riders are riding, at all three gaits, up and down thru the mountains. The horses are fit and usually fast. 

Now I am physically compromised, I have been trying to find a slower person or group to ride with, and so far can't find one...but then again, all that walking is painful on my knee...


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

The Equinest said:


> Another thing I'd like to point out is that so far, we've really only talked about the gag in regards to trail rides/etc, with the exception of @lostastirrup . A horse can be comfortable in just about anything on the trail, if the amount of trail riders using TT's or gigantic gaited bits says anything(The amount of leverage on those things frankly scares me away from ever attempting to ride with one for curiosity's sake - if I fall off or get off balance I could very well damage my horse's mouth beyond repair and I'm not willing to take that risk.). Try working or training in those bits.... you'll get a different result. My horse probably would have been fine after a half an hour or so if I'd ridden her off on a loose rein in the gag for a nice trail ride, but trying to train and actually establish any sense of contact was a different story. Part of the thing that I dislike about gags the most is that it's so easy to rotate them. You apply just a little contact, and they start sliding up. If I were to apply the amount of contact it takes to guide my mare at a decent clip around a barrel pattern - the slide could be very easily all the way engaged. And so far we've shown that no one really want to fully engage the gag.



So lets talk briefly about why "actual training" CAN happen in a gag if used appropriately. On this particular day (see post # 135 on page 14 of this thread), the horse's first time in a gag we did a couple of things. The first was we established the mechanism of the gag in hand with appropriate reactions to his behaviour reinforced with the whip just behind the girth to simulate the leg. I leg yielded the horse in hand, asked him to stop, turn on the haunches, and flex. He experienced the full range of motion in the gag that would be asked of him undersaddle. This included fully engaging the gag to its highest intensity when he tried to blow through his shoulder when asked to stop in hand. The engagement of the bit was porportional to the amount of force he put on it. He backed off a little and it gave in that exact amount- _isnt physics lovely like that?_ lesson learned. Ridden, with this bit, we wanted two things from this horse- go forward from the leg and a polite whoa. Both of those are perfectly possible with a gag. Because he was a horse that had learned to lean and jerk on a snaffle- i wasnt particularly worried about him overreacting to the bit in his mouth- he clearly was perfectly capable of ignoring the nutcracker effect and wasn't likely to lose his marbles. Couple that with that his rider does not have the strength in her remaining hand to apply a necessary correction in the snaffle for rude behaviour, and a gag seemed like the ticket to encourage him to yield politely. From the ground to get him to the idea of using his hind end a little more- I coached her to check him back with the bit up and close to her body with immediate releases- following a strong leg or whip aid. I asked her to ask often and release quickly, so that he was never given the opportunity to meet the gag fully engaged except for when he went to shove his head and try and jerk the reins out of her hands. All the while with insistent and clear aids for FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD. Within about 15 minutes they both had it figured out and we went on to working on baby leg yield. 

When I got on- i did 'put him on the bit' but not quite how you would in a snaffle- i kept my hands lower (this is important for the forces applied- think what a moment arm would do) and i held the contact with my pinkie and not my whole hand. I think with the gag you have to be quite light and quick- because to constantly engage it teaches the horse nothing (which is true for all bits, but you cant ask the horse to push to the contact in the same way where they elastically draw on you in a gag as you would a snaffle), rather I rode and had a high frequency conversation of "can you step bigger from my leg?" "excellent! now can you slow your forehand down?" He was a smart and intelligent cookie. figured it out and worked beautifully with a whole fleet of happy relaxed snorts, stretching down and licking and chewing. Its almost as if appropriately using equipment is key to whether its cruel. - Must have been a fluke of nature that he seemed to enjoy himself and work better in a bit that according to the OP causes chronic injury to the back and spine as well as the mouth. 


The Equinest said:


> gag bits. I've always been told since I was young that they're terrible contraptions, that when the reins are pulled the mouthpiece slides up and hits the molars(depending on the amount of gag and length of shank, though there are many that are very long these days), and at the same times applies poll pressure. The horse, however, being more sensitive in the mouth than the poll usually, ends up riding with his head up in the air and his back hollow do to riding behind the vertical(or even in front of the vertical but with the neck at maximum elevation so this is negated), which as shown in many areas - riding with a hollow back is detrimental and can even be the cause of such things as kissing spine.


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