# Color Question



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Seal brown is a black-based horse (EE or Ee) with the brown agouti modifier restricting the expression of black to the hard points of the horse (mane, tail, legs, muzzle, ear tips) and lightens the soft points (under the elbow, flank, muzzle). Browns are also known for their seasonal coat color changes.

Liver chestnut is a red-based (ee) horse that is a dark liver color. They aren't sure what causes the darkness of the coat color, as no modifier has been found yet associated with the shade expression of chestnuts. You can identify a chestnut of any shade by the ring of lighter hair around the coronet band where there isn't already a white marking.

Smokey black is a black-based horse (EE or Ee) with one cream gene. Since cream can't effect black, the horse would be nearly indistinguishable from a regular black horse except for possible extreme sun-fading or if the horse has been genetically tested.
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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

Do liver chestnuts typically have the same color of mane and tail as they do on their body? Excluding flaxen mane and tail of course.
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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes, they do. They can also be so dark, that they are almost black. But the lighter ring around the coronet always gives them away.
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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

SummyK said:


> Do liver chestnuts typically have the same color of mane and tail as they do on their body? Excluding flaxen mane and tail of course.
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Liver chestnuts vary in mane and tail color just as much as every other shade of chestnut. They can be anywhere from very light flaxen to almost black. 

And to clarify seal brown, they can vary greatly in shade from looking bay (but have cinnamon colored soft spots) to looking solid black but again have those cinnamon colored soft areas (muzzle, elbow, flank). In the movie Man from Snowy River, the wild old stallion with the brumby herd is a seal brown. 

Smokey black, as Aires mentioned, is a black horse with 1 cream gene. You usually don't notice a difference color difference between blacks and smokey blacks, and most blacks fade/bleach in the sun to varying degrees. What sets smokey blacks apart is their 50% chance to produce palomino and/or buckskin foals when bred to horses without a cream gene.
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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

What are the odds of getting a palomino out of a liver chestnut? I bought a mare that was sold me as a liver chestnut, but my aunt called her a smokey black. Her first foal she was bred to a black and white paint and had a black and white paint. Her second one she was bred to a black based Gray and had a black and white paint that turned to a grey paint. The third foal she was bred to the Gray stud a second time and she had a palomino with none of the typical graying signs. Her 4th foal appears to be a smoky black so far with a brown roan sire.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I would save the guess work, spend the $25, and get the mare tested.
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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

SummyK said:


> What are the odds of getting a palomino out of a liver chestnut? I bought a mare that was sold me as a liver chestnut, but my aunt called her a smokey black. Her first foal she was bred to a black and white paint and had a black and white paint. Her second one she was bred to a black based Gray and had a black and white paint that turned to a grey paint. The third foal she was bred to the Gray stud a second time and she had a palomino with none of the typical graying signs. Her 4th foal appears to be a smoky black so far


Can you post a picture of her? Does the black based grey stallion have other palomino or buckskin foals out of non cream mares? To get a cream gene in a foal, it has to come directly from the sire or dam and cream hides in black. As for a smokey black foal, there isn't anyway to know it is smokey black unless you color tested or one of the parents was homozygous cream (Cremello/perlino). I can share lots of foal pictures of black babies who look anything but black without modifiers but do get a solid black coat for a first winter coat and cannot even be smokey black because they are purebred Arabs.
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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

I would but I have no background on her and the last place I checked on for testing required it.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

SummyK said:


> I would but I have no background on her and the last place I checked on for testing required it.


UC Davis requires background info on the horse to color test it? That's news to me.

There's also Animal Genetics: http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/Coat_Color/Index.asp
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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

SunnyDraco said:


> Can you post a picture of her? Does the black based grey stallion have other palomino or buckskin foals out of non cream mares? To get a cream gene in a foal, it has to come directly from the sire or dam and cream hides in black. As for a smokey black foal, there isn't anyway to know it is smokey black unless you color tested or one of the parents was homozygous cream (Cremello/perlino). I can share lots of foal pictures of black babies who look anything but black without modifiers but do get a solid black coat for a first winter coat and cannot even be smokey black because they are purebred Arabs.
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I was going to post a picture of her but I'm having problems with images tonight for some reason. if you look on my horses or barn page its thr mare whose name is Sage. She looks kind of reddish in the picture because of the sun but she's not red at all.


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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> UC Davis requires background info on the horse to color test it? That's news to me.
> 
> There's also Animal Genetics: Animal Genetics
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I honestly don't remember the name of the place but wherever it was at the bottom of the page said what materials were required and one of the things was background info.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

SummyK said:


> I honestly don't remember the name of the place but wherever it was at the bottom of the page said what materials were required and one of the things was background info.


Background info is if the horse is registered so then it is put on the test results as it can be handy for proof of the tests done on a particular horse 
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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

Ahh, that makes more sense. I thought that was kinda strange to require that cause I know there's a lot of people that don't have the horses backgrounds.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

SummyK said:


> I was going to post a picture of her but I'm having problems with images tonight for some reason. if you look on my horses or barn page its thr mare whose name is Sage. She looks kind of reddish in the picture because of the sun but she's not red at all.


Finally got the barn to work so I could see more than the tiny pixelated thumbnail. Impossible to tell anything about her color in that picture, the lower the sun is in the horizon (sunrise and sunset), the more red to golden light it creates which completely messes up all color. Can you post another picture in the barn or use photobucket to share a better picture?


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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

Finally got images to work, this is her just a few days ago


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

SummyK said:


> Finally got images to work, this is her just a few days ago


Can you clean up/wash her lower non white legs and take a picture? Mud on her legs prevents showing if she has a light color just above the hoof to be a liver chestnut. If she isn't liver chestnut, then she is likely a black who really fades, possibly a smokey black if she has a cream gene :wink: having a palomino by a black based grey stallion means either she has a cream gene or the grey stallion has one


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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

I'll see if I can clean them up


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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

I don't know what I was thinking earlier, I don't have to clean her feet up to be able tell you she has white on all four feet. You can't tell in the pic cause it's blurred. She has a white coronet on the front left and I guess a partial pastern on the right front.

Also the stud's Grandsire was a palomino paint.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

SummyK said:


> I don't know what I was thinking earlier, I don't have to clean her feet up to be able tell you she has white on all four feet. You can't tell in the pic cause it's blurred. She has a white coronet on the front left and I guess a partial pastern on the right front.
> 
> Also the stud's Grandsire was a palomino paint.


Partial white means that only part is white. The part that isn't white would show signs of chestnut/red if she is liver chestnut. If there is black skin in contact with the top of the hoof, that is what will tell you. 

As for the stallion's palomino grandsire, what color was the parent of the stallion produced by the palomino? Only way for cream to pass undectected is if it is misidentified (lots of horses are called incorrect colors), hidden in black or covered by grey.


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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

Okay, I will check the hoof that is partial.

The stud's dam came from the palomino paint. I have no I idea what color she was for sure cause she was already turning gray when I bought her, I think she was also black, but not certain.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

SummyK said:


> Okay, I will check the hoof that is partial.
> 
> The stud's dam came from the palomino paint. I have no I idea what color she was for sure cause she was already turning gray when I bought her, I think she was also black, but not certain.


Then the stallion's dam could have received a cream hidden in black and covered by grey. Test your stallion for cream 
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## SummyK (Jun 20, 2015)

I finally got to check the mares hoof that's only partial white, it's the same color from the hoof to the top of the leg, there is no lighter color other than the white on the back side.
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