# Parelli or Clinton Anderson?



## EquestrianCowgirl4

Who do you like?
Parelli? 
or 
Clinton Anderson?


----------



## attackships

parelli seems like a good horseman, but ive seen some clips from his clinics and the big show production he puts on is a bit "much" for me personally. i have never seen/read anything about clinton anderson so i can't compare. Although I do like clinton anderson's rope halters despite how dang expensive they are. I'll vote for him! ;p


----------



## trainerunlimited

I like Clinton's method. You don't need as much stuff to mess with them and I can understand and relate to him a lot better. I also like Chris Cox, but he wasn't an option, lol.


----------



## SorrelHorse

I do not like the Pareli methos simply because I don't connect with it. I haven't gone in depth at all, but fro what I have of clinton anderson (I get dvds from the no worries club) it is easy to understand and effective for me and the horses.


----------



## OkieGal

Niether, but if I HAD to choose one, Anderson. 
I voted other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Adam

I chose other as well. If I had to pick a big named guy, it would be John Lyons. However, my fav is the trainer I've hired


----------



## farmpony84

I like many of Clinton Andersons methods but I have found some of Parellis tips useful. I've also used John Lyons and many others, along with my own personal trainer. The important thing is to know that there is no ONE training method for any ONE horse. What works for me, might not work for you and what works for this horse, may not work for that horse. There is nothing wrong with mixing and matching. I am totally against drinking any koolaids though.


----------



## EquestrianCowgirl4

farmpony84 said:


> I like many of Clinton Andersons methods but I have found some of Parellis tips useful. I've also used John Lyons and many others, along with my own personal trainer. The important thing is to know that there is no ONE training method for any ONE horse. What works for me, might not work for you and what works for this horse, may not work for that horse. There is nothing wrong with mixing and matching. I am totally against drinking any koolaids though.


 I agree with you! I go alot off Parelli as a base but I also have my own twist on it. I also do some stacy westfall too! 
i like where you are coming from


----------



## myhorsesonador

I don't like either of them, and I'll tell you why. These are my opinions and you don't have to agree with them 

Parelli: I guess it's good for bonding, but for the most part is just a bunch of games. I've seen so meny videos that proves Parelli and him wife (mostly his wife) Don't really know NH.

Clinton: Arogant SOB. 

Both Parelli and Clinton spend their whole show "buy my product blah blah blah" 

Who I do like is: Chris Cox, Denis Reis, Craig Camron, and a local trainer here that tought one of his students to ride a wild untouched mustang in 3 hours with just a rope halter, named Tom Olive. (I'm sure he has done it, but the girl that was riding was a friends kid.)


----------



## SorrelHorse

myhorsesonador said:


> I don't like either of them, and I'll tell you why. These are my opinions and you don't have to agree with them
> 
> Parelli: I guess it's good for bonding, but for the most part is just a bunch of games. I've seen so meny videos that proves Parelli and him wife (mostly his wife) Don't really know NH.
> 
> Clinton: Arogant SOB.
> 
> Both Parelli and Clinton spend their whole show "buy my product blah blah blah"
> 
> Who I do like is: Chris Cox, Denis Reis, Craig Camron, and a local trainer here that tought one of his students to ride a wild untouched mustang in 3 hours with just a rope halter, named Tom Olive. (I'm sure he has done it, but the girl that was riding was a friends kid.)


 
I find that the methods still work even without the products however.

An honestly I really hate craig cameron...Not for his methods but for the fact that none of his shows have ever really helped me. A lot of talking and not a whole bunch of variety or successful tips....It takes awhile to get to the point. Chris Cox and Dennis Reis are okay for me, I just find them sort of dull. I have to be in the mood to really sit down and pay attention.


----------



## Lockwood

subbing


----------



## myhorsesonador

SorrelHorse said:


> I find that the methods still work even without the products however.
> 
> An honestly I really hate craig cameron...Not for his methods but for the fact that none of his shows have ever really helped me. A lot of talking and not a whole bunch of variety or successful tips....It takes awhile to get to the point. Chris Cox and Dennis Reis are okay for me, I just find them sort of dull. I have to be in the mood to really sit down and pay attention.


I DVR all the shows so I can skip the irrelavent ones. lol. Honestly I just enjoy watching their shows, I haven't actualy learned any thing from any body even Clinton.


----------



## Evansk

My mom like Anderson and John Lyons

I use Ray Hunt / Buck Brannaman, I found that I couldn't really connect with the trainers methods, I mean their all kinda the same but not at the same time.


----------



## franknbeans

I really like Chris Cox, but use a combination of many. Least of all PP.....blah, blah blah...savvy....blah blah...


----------



## Evansk

franknbeans said:


> I really like Chris Cox, but use a combination of many. Least of all PP.....blah, blah blah...savvy....blah blah...



haha that made me laugh :lol:


----------



## Jolly Badger

I don't care for any of the trainers who have their own product lines, but I have to say that Parelli is probably my _least_ favorite of them. 

He talks a lot, but doesn't say anything worth listening to. 

I still remember the first time I read an article about Parelli "hill therapy." I thought it was a joke. . .like the horsey version of an article in _The Onion. _He and LP really seemed to think that they'd "discovered" the concept that working a horse on a hill was a good way to build muscle and balance, and they were "selling" the concept to their loyal followers.

_Anyone_ who has done _any_ riding outside of an arena on any kind of a regular basis knows that working over varied terrain is great for both horse and rider. You don't need to join a $20/month "club" to be told that.

As for favorites, I have a lot of respect for Buck Brannaman, though (from what I've read and heard) he really doesn't consider what he does as "natural" horsemanship and regards the phrase as little more than a marketing strategy.


----------



## mls

Jolly Badger said:


> I don't care for any of the trainers who have their own product lines, but I have to say that Parelli is probably my _least_ favorite of them.


Ah - it's called marketing and sponsorship. These folks to do not approach the companies - the companies come to them. Same as any other althlete or celebrity. Paid endorsements.


----------



## Jolly Badger

mls said:


> Ah - it's called marketing and sponsorship. These folks to do not approach the companies - the companies come to them. Same as any other althlete or celebrity. Paid endorsements.


The thing is, I have more respect for a trainer or rider who has proven themselves in their field and is asked to represent the company (like Ariat, or Wrangler, or Professional's Choice) than a clinician who slaps their own name on a bunch of training gadgets to be sold exclusively through their "training program" just to make extra bucks off their loyal followers.

Trevor Brazile is a great all-around cowboy whether or not he is endorsing Wrangler. The PBR riders who endorse Ariat have proven themselves in their sport with or without the products they help to advertise. Karen O'Connor, Beezie Madden, George Morris. . .they're all extremely talented horse-people who have proven their talent and gotten where they are by being GOOD at what they do. Not by relying on starry-eyed followers to buy their over-priced "stuff."


----------



## farmpony84

I have been told that GaWani Ponyboy is actually really good. I've seen him at expos sitting at his booth but I've never paid much attention to him. There are a few trainers here that really seem to like him.... I plan to take a look at him when I get a chance.


----------



## kevinshorses

Bill and Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt and Buck Brannaman are my biggest influence. Bruce Sandifer is a fabulous horseman from Santa Barbara California that speciallizes in building the spade bit horse through the traditional vaquero methods of southern California. He has a lot of unique insights and methods that can help anyone regardless of style.

None of these people endorse anything in thier clinics. I think Ray and Buck have been sponsored by a halter company but they never push the products. When Ray did a clinic for me he showed up with one truck pulling a living quarters horse trailer like many people on this forum probably have. Buck is the same. The last time I saw a CA demonstration it looked like the circus was in town. There were at least 3 semi trucks and three or four big tents full of Down under Crap. Parreli is much the same or worse. These men aren't doing what they're doing for the horse. They're doing it for money and ego. That's not something I want to learn or support.


----------



## mls

kevinshorses said:


> These men aren't doing what they're doing for the horse. They're doing it for money and ego. That's not something I want to learn or support.


Just curious to know if you have met and spoken one on one with either of these two? Or are you basing your opinion only on what you see?


----------



## Lockwood

farmpony84 said:


> I have been told that GaWani Ponyboy is actually really good. I've seen him at expos sitting at his booth but I've never paid much attention to him. There are a few trainers here that really seem to like him.... I plan to take a look at him when I get a chance.


I have seen him work in person and like what I saw.Although I only spoke to him briefly, I really liked how he worked with the horse at the clinic I was at that day. From what I understand he is out of the limelight for a while due to a motorcycle accident but I sure hope he returns soon so I can see him work again.


----------



## kevinshorses

mls said:


> Just curious to know if you have met and spoken one on one with either of these two? Or are you basing your opinion only on what you see?


I've met them both. I think they are fine people and probably good horsemen but I think there are a lot better ones out there. I don't like how they prey on the uninformed and get them to buy hundreds of dollars woth of crap they don't need. I like that they appeal to a lot of beginners and have introduced people to a better way of handling thier horses. Much like marijuanna is a gateway drug that leads to other drugs, CA and PP lead many to the better horsemen and away from the clinicians and trainers. When I judge a horseman I look at his/her horse and only the horse. I don't care if they wear farmer overalls and a feed store cap. The horse tells me how much they really "savvy". Both CA and PP ride nice horses but they aren't in the same class as Buck Brannamans or Bruce Sandifers. To watch either of them ride it's like they just became a part of that horse and whatever they think, the horse just does. Totally different than the kick and pull and wave a stick that the others do.


----------



## its lbs not miles

I've seen things I agree and disagree with from every person promoting their methode of "natural horsemanship". When my grandfather and family members from his generation were mentoring me as young teen the term "natural horsemanship" didn't exist. It was just understanding how horses did things and LOT of common sense. I have an 83 year old 1st cousin once removed who give me pointers in my youth (to many years ago) and is still training new horses using patience and common sense (what they now call NH )
One of my biggest problems with all these "professional NH" system creators is they seem to feel that they're doing it right and the rest aren't as good (and their followers can be fanatical ). If you see something one does that works well with your horse, then use it. Don't get into lockstep with any one of them. All the horses I've worked with training have each had their own little quirks about what works with them. Somethings have worked with most of them, but not always. If you try something from one of the NH programs that doesn't work, try something from another. There's also no crime in using your own common sense and figuring out your own way that none of them use.

My mentors use to point out that horses are like people with their own personalities. It was the common sense things that stuck with me the most. 
You'll never be bigger or stronger, so you have to always be smarter. 
Training and teaching a horse to do what you ask because it wants to(rewards and praise help a lot there) always trumps teaching it by force. 
Keep discipline fair and use what the horse understands as discipline, not what we think of as discipline (unless you're thinking like a horse).
Stop training if you get frustrated with how things are going. Never train when angry or upset. Do something the horse already does well and you'll both feel better about the days work (you always want to horse to feel willing to train the next time).
Never forget that horses have LONG memories.
There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to teach a horse.

It wasn't rocket science, just common sense. I find it odd that people are paying so much money to be told how to train a horse using one persons "system".


----------



## Fargosgirl

I used to really like CA until I seen him in person. In his training he says "tap, tap, tap your horse" Well, when you can hear that "tap" in person, it is a really solid smack. I don't know if it was just that day I saw him, or if he's always that way, but in my opinion he was unnecessarily harsh to a horse that was trying its guts out to figure out what the monkey with the stick wanted. Also his videos skip some of the time he spends doing things, he whacked on the horse I seen him work for nearly 3 hours before it was doing what he wanted. Even then the horse looked to me like it was _reacting _out of fear, rather than responding calmly because it understood.

I feel the need to defend these clinicians a little. Yes they are in it for the money, but by "mass producing" a product they make it available to the masses. I can't afford to spend $45/hour to have private lessons with a trainer, but I can save up and get a few videos on subjects I am currently having trouble with and then work out my problems on my own. Before I started watching clinician videos, I was taking advice from anyone with a horse, and it landed me in a WORLD OF TROUBLE!

I agree that it is far better to receive personalised advice from someone who knows you and your horse, but these big name guys do fill a need, especially for the backyard hobbyist. I have videos and books from many big names, and I know I'm going to be unpopular for saying this but Parelli is my favourite. It just works for me, even if its not for everyone.


----------



## trainerunlimited

I have different views on Clinton. I think he is a great horse trainer, but a phenomenal people trainer. As far as him whacking horses, he doesn't just go WHACK for no reason, he starts out soft and gets harder as needed. If the horse is being very stubborn, he corrects them until he gets the response he was looking for. I've been to three of his Walkabout Tours and loved every one of them. His videos are skipped around a lot, but I think in order for him to show all the things he wants per video, it has to be cut down.

Larry Trocha is a great teacher as far as seeing mistakes that happen to everyday horses and people. I love that he actually rides several different horses and uses the green or problem horses so we can actually see them mess up and how he fixes it.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I've had to fix a Parelli-trained horse, so of course, I'm not a huge fan of his. My old gelding was trained using Parelli (not very well-executed Parelli, mind you, but still Parelli) and he was more of a handful as a trained six-year-old than my unhandled two-year-old stud colt when I bought him. Retrained my old gelding literally from the ground up using common sense and a little bit of CA and ended up with an eight-year-old that we used as a bareback lesson horse in a french link snaffle (his old owners said he couldn't be ridden in anything but a twisted wire snaffle, direct reined :shock:, with spurs, and his head tied down to his chest).

I have used a lot of CA's methods on my coming 3yo and they've worked really well.


----------



## smrobs

Given the big names, I would much rather study with Buck Brannaman just because I think he's a much better horseman that the others and he truly _is_ in it "for the horse".

However, if I had to choose between PP and CA, I would choose CA. At least most of his methods don't have the feel of a 3 ring circus where you have to play "games" to make "friends" with your horse.

I tend to try to avoid anything PP. Mostly because I think he's a loud mouthed cluck, but also because many of his "followers" I've encountered just seem like stark raving _lunatics_ to me.


----------



## myhorsesonador

smrobs said:


> I tend to try to avoid anything PP. Mostly because I think he's a loud mouthed cluck, but also because many of his "followers" I've encountered just seem like stark raving _lunatics_ to me.


This is why I call PP a cult.


----------



## natisha

I voted CA but I think Chris Cox wears his jeans the best.


----------



## doubleopi

I know the most about John Lyons but my current trainer uses Clinton Anderson. I've never been impressed with Parelli.


----------



## Fort fireman

In my opinion I think they are both sell outs in a way. Just my opinion. i've sat and watched there shows and they both have some decent info but it is like watching a hour long commercial for "MY STUFF" buy My stuff. Clintion has rope halters that cost $1.50 worth of rope and you to can own one for 45 bucks. It has two knots on the nose band. Wahoo!. Buy my string and stick for 60 bucks. Lets face it, it's a flippin short lounge whip. i am not saying they don't have good info or merrit just alot of wading through BS to get the info.
Again just my opinion but it gets alittle over board. 

I really like Buck Brannaman. i know he had a movie out about him not long ago and hopefully it doesn't change him in a bad way. ( i don't think it will) he just seems to stil be in it to help people with horses. I would have loved to be able to sit down with Bill or Tom Dorrance or Ray hunt. Just to try to soak alittle of that wisdom. 
Not to mention I am seeming to gravitate more toward the vaquero style of horsemanship. It is "natural horsemanship" before natural horsemanship existed. The only problem is here in NC people kinda look at ya funny when you mention it and ya just kinda have to wait for a Buck Brannman to come to town.

Again all opinions.


----------



## tlkng1

I used CA's mthtods but have modified them to the individual horse. One of his methods I don't like is how he sends a horse off while on the lunge in the second level of lunging for respect..he gets them to change direction quickly and then sends them off fast...I just see a lot of possible leg injuries with that and will do the same but send them off in a walk and bring them back up to the trot.

I absolutely cannot fault CA's loading method and have used this same thing on a few horses at our barn who were absolute loading nightmares. Now they literally load themselves.


----------



## SorrelHorse

tlkng1 said:


> I used CA's mthtods but have modified them to the individual horse. One of his methods I don't like is how he sends a horse off while on the lunge in the second level of lunging for respect..he gets them to change direction quickly and then sends them off fast...I just see a lot of possible leg injuries with that and will do the same but send them off in a walk and bring them back up to the trot.
> 
> I absolutely cannot fault CA's loading method and have used this same thing on a few horses at our barn who were absolute loading nightmares. Now they literally load themselves.


 
Can you please explain how the lunging for respect stage 2 can cause leg problems? Do you believe it is any worse than normal work or running in the pasture?


----------



## smrobs

Tlkng, one other thing to consider...the reason that he asks for such a fast turn and quick takeoff is not just for respect, they are the groundwork base for the under saddle rollbacks and hard turns. Because he rides reining/working cow horses, hard turns and rollbacks are a huge part of his training regimen.

Not everyone needs those and not everyone can ride them even if their horse does them properly, but it is nice to have a horse that will do it when you ask.

I see where it might be harder on their legs than say, turning a slow turn and walking out of it, but I don't see that it could be any harder on them than asking for them to sit a stop out of a lope, spin 180* and lope off again.

Pretty much everything we do with horses poses risks to their joint health and longevity. The best you can really do is not to _avoid_ those things, but to make sure the horse is properly prepared and conditioned to do the action.

Just for an example. A horse that has been taught how to properly do a rollback is much less likely to bow a tendon or torque a joint if they spook and spin during a standard ride.


----------



## kevinshorses

The worst thing you can do for a horses joints is work them in a 50 foot circle for endless repetitions like so many people think they need to do.


----------



## tlkng1

I ride english so rollbacks aren't a necessary part of the program  but thehorse I had worked the method on previously did have fun with them and did them well and would do a rollback at the walk. What concerned me, however, is he did have arthritis in the hocks so I didn't want to push the speed off issue with him. SMRobs I didn't think about the spook issue  but you have a point there and horses certainly do psin on their own when in the paddock or just free...call me paranoid 

Kevin, I admit that if I have to lunge to bleed off energy I much prefer a free lunge. I do use the line if I am trying to work topline and stretching exercises or in the case of my new horse, trying to build muscle by working him up and down a hill in one of the turnout paddocks (we were battling a saddle rub on his withers so I wasn't riding).


----------



## joachim

Well, a horse trainer should be available when you need him. So I was always on the search for the best horse trainer I can get and she/he needs to be in the neighbourhood of say 20mls. I have seen some specialists and could have arranged a lesson or two. But imagine the next week you gonna run into a problem or an unsolved question. What are you gonna do then? Taking you cell phone while being horseback or typing an email?

I do like the trainers around the corner, sometimes the less shiny person can give you the right advice w/o creating a show for the audience. Well, that is just where I come from


----------



## tlkng1

Just as it helps to have other riding instructors it helps to get a view from other trainers. Yes, we like the local trainers obviously as they are available, however, they also tend to have their own way of doing things. I like getting informaiton from several sources before making a decision on what will work with my particular horse. In my case, the barn I am at is anti-clinician except for George Morris and waved off when I intriduce CAs methods rto my horse, yet, in nearly a year of "halp" from the trainers at the barn, the horse still had lousy ground manners. In 6 months of work with CA's methods, his ground manners vastly improved. s an aside, he wasn't my first ever horse and his ground manners, while I called them lousy, weren't extremely bad..he wasn't a biter or kicker..he just wasn't as "pleasant" as I would have liked to see.


----------



## Corporal

I think this is the 4th thread on this subject but I believe that these NH trainers hit the market at just the right time. One of my (now) 15yo teenage help came out last Saturday and I found myself telling her she should buy young and started but NOT ruined when she buys her first horse--mom and dad aren't in the market to buy one for her.
I believe that people stopped spending adequate TIME with their horses in the 1990's and theses horses were changing hands without retraining out obedience issues. CA, and the others aren't trainers so much as they are RE-trainers. To see good initial training I watch Dennis Reis and Chris Cox. _(I'm wondering if Natisha is watching him or his horse, lol.)_ The horses that they turn out are the proof in the pudding. I remember a Cox program where he took a 3 yo to an eventing course in TX. His gelding was obedient in the Dressage arena and he taught him to jump a log on the ground before trying it with him aboard. ALL of the time the horse was calm, and flexed. He also had a program introducing neck reining to a 2yo and the result is what you WANT in any horse, accomplished in a short period of time with logical reasoned steps that you can duplicate.
Dennis Reis demostrates to ME in his programs that you can be the boss, in the same way that my horse, "Tyke" (1970-1998, RIP) established HIS authority (1994) with another's horse. Tyke was tied to our trailer, the other horse was tied about 12 feet away on another trailer. Tyke took ONE step forward, the other hesitated, took one step backwards--dominance established. Tyke was the bossiest herd leader I have ever met and I never saw another horse that didn't back down to him.
Reis maintains his ground and insists that the horse moves without smacking a whip aroud all of the time. His methods are easy for me to understand and duplicate.
I have used CA's techniques, but I cherry-pick. I don't think I've ever seen "Tyke" or "Corporal" or "Lawman" (Cup & Cakes) make another horse lunge 5 steps one way and 5 steps another way, back and forth, to establish herd leadership. I did see "Corporal" cow-kick "Prime Time" (TB) when turned our immediately after he saw Prime Time give _me_ some disrespect. In FACT whenever I had a problem horse in (my old) herd, the entire herd would beat that horse up for me.
Still, CA has sound methods. He *Lucked* into the tie ring, but it makes perfect sense to use it early on yearlings. However, I kinda wonder about a few things.
CA tells stories about how he had problems with his horses growing up that I didn't experience until, again, buying horses in the late 90's.
_"I thought that you were lucky if your horse loaded easily in the trailer_.", for instance. "Corporal" loaded into my trialer as a 4yo (1986) with a piece of baling twine bc we weren't expecting to buy a horse that day and didn't have a lead rope with us. The ONLY horse that was a trailer problem for us was an old mare that was having sight and other problems. Everybody else did fine. We even (blush) loaded 5-6 horses several times into our 4-horse stock trailer. Our big barrelled, 13'2hh pony, "Toma", would load himself between 2 other horses in the back.
All I had in my arsenal was 3 years of hunt-seat lessons, but I re-trained horses with minimal problems, or retrained Western to English and all to gunfire and close-order drill. I've usual manuals and books and learned by doing. I kinda wonder why CA insists that he needs the advice of others to train his show horses. =/
To ME, you train a good foundation on your horse and the rest is just gravy.
I STILL watch his programs to see if there is anything I haven't thought about. I am learning from Julie Goodnight in her starting a colt series that's on right now.
Parelli's advice sounds workable and then they throw in advice like pumping your legs alternately to get impulsion. :? I even tried it with my 5yo QH--didn't lighten him up. My spurs did, however, and he remembers. I had always learned to whisper with my calves and use a crop behind my leg if my horse turned off his "hearing." After awhile my lesson horses would see a rider flip their crop up and immediately responded with more energy before the crop was used. You know, they have this "peripheral vision" going on. =b
Sorry for the length. I suggest watching them, but check here to see if anything they say sounds fishy.


----------



## smokeslastspot

I use mainly CA methods but also a bit of all the method's I've seen except Parelli. We call the it the parrelliite cult around here. I didn't used to give much thought to him at all until I saw an owner giving their horse treats when they tried to bite while being cinched up. When I told her that wasn't a good idea she started going on and on about how HE said that was what you should do and how dare I contradict him. That was not the only stupid thing I've seen out of that program. 

Mostly I just try to always use common sense when I'm around horses. That seems to be in short supply these days unfortunately.


----------



## natisha

Corporal said:


> . _(I'm wondering if Natisha is watching him or his horse, lol.)_


He has a horse?:wink:


----------



## Fargosgirl

smokeslastspot said:


> I use mainly CA methods but also a bit of all the method's I've seen except Parelli. We call the it the parrelliite cult around here. I didn't used to give much thought to him at all until I saw an owner giving their horse treats when they tried to bite while being cinched up. When I told her that wasn't a good idea she started going on and on about how HE said that was what you should do and how dare I contradict him. That was not the only stupid thing I've seen out of that program.
> 
> Mostly I just try to always use common sense when I'm around horses. That seems to be in short supply these days unfortunately.



I just wanted to comment on this method. I know that it sounds insane to treat a horse that is trying to bite you, but this actually worked with one of my mares. When I bought her, she had the bad habit of biting and kicking any time you put your hand under her belly or chest and I spent two years smacking her and yelling "NO!" only to have her get more aggressive with me. After hearing the treat suggestion, I thought it was nuts, but also thought I didn't have anything to lose because this nasty old mare couldn't possibly get any worse in her behaviour. In about a week of treats her attitude changed completely and she never really had a problem with me touching her underside again. 

The psychology of the method is that the bite is just feed back on something you are doing. The horse is thinking "I hate it when you do that!" So when you reprimand them they still keep a negative attitude about what you are doing, but by treating them it changes something they feel is negative into something positive for them.

I'm not saying this will work on every horse in every situation or that it would always be my first course of action, but it isn't quite as stupid as it seems on first glance.


----------



## tinyliny

I could see that being used if you offered the treat BEFORE the horse threatened to bit. Mac does not ever threaten to bite, but he does bloat when cinching. I usually bring him a treat , give it to him just before raising the cinch. It seems to keep his mind off the cinch for that moment. If he threatened me, I would not give him a treat, I'd give him a wollop .


----------



## mftowner06

Clinton Anderson - I also like John/Josh (son) Lyons, Buck B, Larry Trocha


----------



## myQHpaul

Monty Roberts. He just has such an easy way about him and the horses he works with and if the Queen of England trusts him with her horses, then I trust his techniques with my 7 year old haflinger  I use his online university for tons of ideas on how to work with Sonny and so far, everything he said would happen has and Sonny seems happy with me too.


----------



## Scoutrider

I voted "Other." If I were forced at gunpoint to choose CA or PP, I'd take CA in a heartbeat. The Parellis drive me bonkers, but at the bottom of the fluff and pageantry are a few sound techniques. I don't like either of their under-saddle work particularly... 

I don't follow any one trainer religiously... I take what I like from anyone and everyone, and modify it if I get to the barn and things aren't shaking out right in practice.


----------



## gypsygirl

i voted CA. i do some parelli ground work stuff tho. i really like CA ground work, it helped me and my mare really work well together when i first got her. i dont know much about either of their undersaddle stuff.


----------



## My Bida Booger

equestriancowgirl4 said:


> who do you like?
> parelli?
> or
> clinton anderson?


parelli!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 2SCHorses

I would pick CA. I actually went to a CA clinic with my dominant Appendix, and it was great for us because he was a pretty pushy horse. BUT my pony mare is sensitive and I just use very light, light pressure and cues. I don't need to be aggressive at all, and the guy that ran the clinic (wish I could remember his name, but I'll have to go look it up in my journal) said that you need to adjust the pressure for the horse, and with my mare just a *tiny* wave of the stick is all it takes and she's doing the right thing.

Parelli overall didn't work for me, but I have integrated some of his stuff and some stuff from other trainers, so it's like a smorgasbord of training stuff. I even do some Tellington Touch with my super sensitive pony to relax her. 

I don't think one has ALL the answers, but I do let my friends that have first time horses use my CA DVDs because it is easy for them especially if they don't have the $ to spend on a trainer because they just blew it all on a horse, trailer, boarding, etc ... I saw something on FB about equine owners and one part said: "This is what my husband thinks I do." and it was a pic of someone burning a Benjamin. Yeah, I get that.


----------



## Makoda

I vote other.

My pick is me, cause I am the best of all and I don't do it for the money. If you don't think so just ask me I'll tell you.


----------



## desert winds

*parelli gone bad*



DraftyAiresMum said:


> I've had to fix a Parelli-trained horse, so of course, I'm not a huge fan of his. My old gelding was trained using Parelli (not very well-executed Parelli, mind you, but still Parelli) and he was more of a handful as a trained six-year-old than my unhandled two-year-old stud colt when I bought him. Retrained my old gelding literally from the ground up using common sense and a little bit of CA and ended up with an eight-year-old that we used as a bareback lesson horse in a french link snaffle (his old owners said he couldn't be ridden in anything but a twisted wire snaffle, direct reined :shock:, with spurs, and his head tied down to his chest).
> 
> I have used a lot of CA's methods on my coming 3yo and they've worked really well.


Hi DraftyAiresMum,

I hope you won't take any offence in this,but have you ever tried Parelli actually? I am not a fanatic follower of a one man show,but i bought my horse 5 weeks ago and have had incredible results with Parelli and loads of patience and common sense as well. I ride him bareback in a halter now and before I had him he's never been ridden in a halter before. I feel very sorry for your poor gelding and am glad you retrained him so well obviously, but i can't believe that the previous owner had any idea what she was doing and she certainly did NOT use Parelli...what you describe seems like the absolute opposite of Parelli or any approach a good natural horse trainer would ever use( or anyone with a bit of horse sense,poor gelding :shock: )


----------



## kevinshorses

I can ride a horse in a halter on the first ride but it doesn't mean the horse is well broke. I don't think 99% of Parrelli followers do it right.


----------



## franknbeans

desert winds said:


> Hi DraftyAiresMum,
> 
> I hope you won't take any offence in this,but have you ever tried Parelli actually? I am not a fanatic follower of a one man show,but i bought my horse 5 weeks ago and have had incredible results with Parelli and loads of patience and common sense as well. I ride him bareback in a halter now and before I had him he's never been ridden in a halter before. I feel very sorry for your poor gelding and am glad you retrained him so well obviously, but i can't believe that the previous owner had any idea what she was doing and she certainly did NOT use Parelli...what you describe seems like the absolute opposite of Parelli or any approach a good natural horse trainer would ever use( or anyone with a bit of horse sense,poor gelding :shock: )


 Desert winds-I know you are new here.....and welcome. My guess is that you had success with the patience and common sense part-not the Parelli. GOod horsemanship is based on the patience and common sense-not a guy with a squirrel on his lip who thinks he is "savvy". I do believe you have misunderstood your results. We do not KNOW that the previous owner did not "use parelli"-after all, it is videos that are open to interpretation, there is none to see if you are doing it correctly, and common sense and patience are not "common". Perhaps the owner only went with the "Parelli" part because she watched the DVD's, had a stick, long lead and rope halter. JMHO.


----------



## 2muchcoffeeman

attackships said:


> parelli seems like a good horseman, but ive seen some clips from his clinics and the big show production he puts on is a bit "much" for me personally.


Second this sentiment.



> i have never seen/read anything about clinton anderson so i can't compare. Although I do like clinton anderson's rope halters despite how dang expensive they are. I'll vote for him! ;p


I like CA's approach to horses (and if anybody wants to yell "BUT IT'S JUST COMMON SENSE STUFF!", look around — you see much common sense in the people around you? :lol: ) and some of his methods, even if I do think his trademark logo rips off that of a Chevy Impala. (No, really — think about it for a second.)

There are other trainers I like less than Parelli — in a couple of cases, a great deal less — but quite a few I like much more than Parelli. I certainly wouldn't spend any money on his commercial output and if I hear the word "horsenality" again I'm gonna throw a small fit.


----------



## BoldComic

I voted C. Anderson but I like John Lyons too.


----------



## Ian McDonald

All these guys are pitch men even if they're good horsemen (and imo that last part varies). Personally, I tend to be more inclined to follow teachers who have horses that look like I'd want mine to look. I want to know how they got them that way.


----------



## Rellor

franknbeans said:


> Desert winds-I know you are new here.....and welcome. My guess is that you had success with the patience and common sense part-not the Parelli. GOod horsemanship is based on the patience and common sense-not a guy with a squirrel on his lip who thinks he is "savvy". I do believe you have misunderstood your results. We do not KNOW that the previous owner did not "use parelli"-after all, it is videos that are open to interpretation, there is none to see if you are doing it correctly, and common sense and patience are not "common". Perhaps the owner only went with the "Parelli" part because she watched the DVD's, had a stick, long lead and rope halter. JMHO.


 Why do you feel the need to diminish Desert winds opinion of training methods, just because it is different from your own? And seriously insulting a trainer's appearance as a reason for discounting his methods, how mature is that?


----------



## ButterfliEterna

I think that in order to be a successful and fluent horseperson, that you need to realize that one person does not have all the answers, including ourselves. No one trainer is the same, and it has been said -- neither are the horses we work with. A method that is tried and true on one horse holds no guarantee on another... and as imperfect humans, we should realize that there is always room for error and improvement. When one starts thinking that they know it all, they have truly lost their footing and are common to hit the ground faster than he who is humbled by the experience. Don't be a trainer if you cannot read/judge/predict a horse by it's movements. They require someone with patience and a strong will, otherwise you will get either 'dead broke' horses or soured ones. 

I know of a person in these parts who advertises themselves as a trainer and taken on some equine clients (a few rusty trail horses and some non-halter trained geldings). When we went to see them, I asked the trainer to show me their 'methods'. Sure enough, there was a huge lack of communication (trainer to horse) and interpretation (horse to trainer). A bit frustrated, I walked up and caught him; touched him all over and walked away. The trainer was absolutely stunned, even when I pointed out the miscommunication. "He doesn't want to be 'bad' or not listen. You're just not effectively telling him what to do, nor praising him for doing it right, so he keeps guessing at what you want." Now, I'm nothing special, but I feel that you do have to focus and be tuned in to be successful with horses....


----------



## KBparelli2012

Despite my username, i enjoy both CA and Parelli. 

I use several of Andersons methods when training, and i also use his Handy stick. The carrot sticks that Parelli uses are too hard to juggle (having to switch sticks all the time). However, i do love both of them, and use both of their methods. 
I also learned a bit from purchasing Larry Trocha videos, have dabbled a bit with John Lyons (didnt like his stuff too much, it never worked for me), and Monty Roberts is okay too. 

Then again, my grandpa is the best horse person i have ever known, that man is magic on a horse. I use some of his things as well!

Each horse is an individual, and i firmly believe that you should use whichever method works best for the HORSE. I dont think a horseperson should limit themselves. Learn all you can, from everyone you can, and use what you need to. Just make sure that whatever you DO use, you do it the right way!! 

Cant tell you how may people i have seen attempting Parelli methods on youtube...and i sit there and go..wow...you werent supposed to do that.

Sorry for writing a book, but i get lots of adversity from the fact that i am a woman training "cowboy" horses in Mississippi...add that on top of the fact that i do it in a way that most people dont know anything about...and i get alot of c***.


----------



## FaydesMom

Why choose?

Both Anderson and Parelli, as well as many other trainers, offer differing methods to try to find what works for each individual horse. I think by limiting yourself to only one persons method, you do yourself and your horse a dis-service.

As long as the methods are safe and make sense, there's no reason not to try different things until you find what works to get the best results.


----------



## Dame Nuit

I didn't read the whole thread... 

Just some thing came into my mind. Lot of people among you said : so horrible to sell DVDs, that's marketing, they just to it for their own ego... 

Do you have thoses DVDs? Have you seen the lessons inside? 

I have almost all Parelli's DVD (not the tree last ones), I have CA DVDs, I also have DVDs from french Michel Henriquet, Michel Robert, Philippe Karl, Jean d' Orgeix. 

I can go from on method to another. I like them all. I use them all. I mix them. 

Thanks to PP, I can manage myself with my horses all right. DVDs are expensive, of course, but I didn't have to pay for a bad trainer anymore... And that makes the method become very cheap in fact! :lol:


----------



## fran2

*Parelli or Anderson*

Hi, I've just waded my way through this thread and read a lot of the posts with great interest.

I have all the Parelli DVDs (bar the last 3) and have been a member of the Savvy Club since 2005. I also spent 6 weeks in Florida and have attended numerous Parelli clinics here in the UK. I am also a member of the No Worries Club, have the Fundamentals DVD and plan (when I have the funds) to puchase CA's Intermediate and Advanced DVDs.

Both clinicians are good horseman. Both have excellent timing and can 'read' their horse. Both are excellent showman and successful businessmen. The principals of both these clinicians (and indeed most NH practioners) relies on pressure and release and taking charge of the horses's feet. Different students interpret the instruction in different ways - some more effectively than others. The CA DVDs are similar to the old Parelli levels - easier to follow but more open to 'abuse' by the student.

I don't think Parelli or Anderson are better than each other - just different. In the words of Dr Robert Miller - if he wanted a horse for his mother, he would get Pat to teach it, if he wanted a string of horses for his dude ranch, he'd get Clinton.


----------



## ktrolson

I vote for Clinton. Yes, he is arrogant and downright annoying at times. he does make me laugh at his tour stops though. But I'm not there to be his friend. I am there to learn how to train my horse and have a good relationship with my horse. He is very easy to understand and his methods do work! I have proof in my horse.

Parelli: Wow, I just don't understand most of what he says. And the "horsenality" stuff, I don't really get that either. I think his wife brought that into the program.


----------



## Back2Horseback

its lbs not miles said:


> I've seen things I agree and disagree with from every person promoting their methode of "natural horsemanship". When my grandfather and family members from his generation were mentoring me as young teen the term "natural horsemanship" didn't exist. It was just understanding how horses did things and LOT of common sense. I have an 83 year old 1st cousin once removed who give me pointers in my youth (to many years ago) and is still training new horses using patience and common sense (what they now call NH )
> One of my biggest problems with all these "professional NH" system creators is they seem to feel that they're doing it right and the rest aren't as good (and their followers can be fanatical ). If you see something one does that works well with your horse, then use it. Don't get into lockstep with any one of them. All the horses I've worked with training have each had their own little quirks about what works with them. Somethings have worked with most of them, but not always. If you try something from one of the NH programs that doesn't work, try something from another. There's also no crime in using your own common sense and figuring out your own way that none of them use.
> 
> My mentors use to point out that horses are like people with their own personalities. It was the common sense things that stuck with me the most.
> You'll never be bigger or stronger, so you have to always be smarter.
> Training and teaching a horse to do what you ask because it wants to(rewards and praise help a lot there) always trumps teaching it by force.
> Keep discipline fair and use what the horse understands as discipline, not what we think of as discipline (unless you're thinking like a horse).
> Stop training if you get frustrated with how things are going. Never train when angry or upset. Do something the horse already does well and you'll both feel better about the days work (you always want to horse to feel willing to train the next time).
> Never forget that horses have LONG memories.
> There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to teach a horse.
> 
> It wasn't rocket science, just common sense. I find it odd that people are paying so much money to be told how to train a horse using one persons "system".


This brings up some really interesting thoughts in general. For example; you mention that your 83 year old cousin was using "patience and common sense"...I hate to say this, but I would imagine that something like 75 years ago (about the time I would guess your cousin really got "into" training horses), people in general were a LOT LONGER on PATIENCE AND COMMON SENSE! Not just when dealing with animals, but children and ALL things requiring taking the TIME to REASON OUT the best method to do something while obtaining the least amount of RESISTANCE!

I tend to think that IN GENERAL, the older generations were SO MUCH more adept at training animals (and raising children, too, often times). Sometime around the 1960's for a LOT of people, those skills sort of fell by the wayside. Hence the "Natural Horsemanship" folks making their way onto the scene to take millions of $$ from people who are no longer able to figure out the more basic aspects of life in general; along with people being SO CONFUSED by common sense ideas (GENERALLY SPEAKING, not ONLY with HORSE TRAINING, etc...) such as consistency, "stick-tuitiveness", and not running out the moment something doesn't go exactly their way!

I see SO many folks on this forum, despite many being younger than I am, holding fast to these older, previous-generation's engrained ideas, and that is one of the reasons I* love* reading posts here. It's horse people that are cornering the market, OFTEN TIMES, on INTELLIGENCE, KINDNESS, and the ability to REASON. These are the mentalities which tend to monopolize this forum. I so rarely see those traits in the average co-worker I have, or other non-animal-y person of today, sadly. They tend to look at everything in "fast-food terms"; "How fast can I have it made, eat it, and be on my way?" 

Too bad that none of those concepts work when trying to make a horse of sound mind that is going to be with you or someone else, (if training for someone else) for possibly the rest of your/their lives. When one thinks about the fact that each foal takes just about one year to GESTATE, let alone the subsequent couple of years to GROW until being ready for intensive training! How can one look at ANYTHING having to do with horses as "fasttrack"? 

IM(humble)O, I think that _some part of all_ of the NH trainers/training methods can have SOMETHING to offer any horseperson looking for very specific answers to specific training problems with their particular horse, but to become, as a previous poster mentioned, "a kool-aid drinker" of ANYONE'S SINGULAR METHODS closes out a world of common sense and practical training ideas that are out there to be tried.

And I also agree with what yet ANOTHER poster said, that I have NOTHING against a trainer endorsing _A_ (as in ONE, or even A COUPLE; possibly TWO) GREAT products which they love and have used throughout their lifetime of work), but when I am watching these folks' half-hour training showcases on RFD-TV and I see that ALL FIVE commercials between segments are THEM advertising and ENDORSING product after product in REALLY GENERIC ways, it makes me consider them to be sell-outs! 

I think, "Gosh, they HAVE to be making enough cash JUST with the training they do, let ALONE all the VERY $$$ clinics, the DVDs, books, etc...and NOW they have to add endorsements? And are they EVEN using ANY Of the endorsed products? It's frustrating. I want to respect all of these folks' different methods for the good and toss out the bad, and despite the fact that everyone has to eat, I don't think that without 15-20 endorsements each, they would be surviving on beans and rice five nights per week!!:?


----------



## Saddlebag

Back2horseback, I think of Whoopie Goldberg's sage advice. "Take a deep breath before you speak". It is amazing how effective this is in calming a person's core.


----------



## Back2Horseback

Saddlebag said:


> Back2horseback, I think of Whoopie Goldberg's sage advice. "Take a deep breath before you speak". It is amazing how effective this is in calming a person's core.


Does my "core" seem UN"calm" to you? I am willing to shorten my posts if folks prefer, (or you could just skip 'em if I'm too wordy for you; I do tend to have a lot to say in general!), but I can't and won't apologize for enthusiasm! 

If you are referring to something else, apologies for assuming you meant my communication style...


----------



## Back2Horseback

By the way, Saddlebag, if you read carefully what I wrote, you might see that I was giving a HUGE COMPLIMENT to the people of this forum; as they are the ones with more common sense than I often see in other aspects of personal interactions amongst others in day to day life, kindness, (generally speaking!) and who follow the older, tried and true sensible animal care methods, hence my usual enjoyment of learning from reading all sorts of posts here....long and short. It takes all kinds.... :0)


----------



## DressageDreamer

I agree with many others....common sense, patience and taking what works for you from the big named trainers. I use a lot of Clinton's techniques with great success. I personally think Parelli is a bit over the top as I don't plan to be play buddies with my horse, but that is me. I don't buy their tools, I get what I need locally for a lot less or make my own. 
Basically consistency and teaching a horse it isn't going to die from everything that it fears does wonders. Groundwork sets the foundation for riding, respect and safety. That is my two cents worth


----------



## Horse Riding Fan

Personally I prefer the so called dull shows... Maybe I'm just turned off by the ones that describe their methods like gangbusters and seem more marketing than sound methods.. Just my personal inclination..


----------



## Dark Horse

myhorsesonador said:


> I don't like either of them, and I'll tell you why. These are my opinions and you don't have to agree with them
> 
> Who I do like is: Chris Cox, Denis Reis, Craig Camron, and a local trainer here that tought one of his students to ride a wild untouched mustang in 3 hours with just a rope halter, named Tom Olive. (I'm sure he has done it, but the girl that was riding was a friends kid.)


I know this is an old thread, but came across it and had to post. I've had first hand experience and have spent a lot of time in the company of Mr. Tom Olive and sadly, I'd never, ever reccommend anyone that cares about an animal to him. Cruel, browbeating, unusual tactics, non-sensical rambling and somebody that should not be alone in the company of a female are just some of the things I'd say to describe him. I've personally seen him put the stud shank part of the lead rope through a horses' mouth, attach it to the other side of the halter and longe the horse. When the poor animal was too tired to keep it's nose to the center, he'd rip the longe line. After causing both sides of the mouth to literally drip blood, he promptly but a bit in it's mouth, saddled it and rode it for about 3hrs. This is just one of MANY cruel things I've seen out there. 

I've spoken to Clint Anderson on the phone when I was interested in buying one of his signature horses. He told me to buy all his dvd's, learn his methods, attend his clinics and he'd consider selling me a horse. I've seen him in person, and again, was not impressed.

I've met PP and while I don't subscribe to his methods, there are some good things in there. You take what works, as with any trainer, and throw away the rest. 

I believe a lot of trainers get a bad rap because they attend clinics and send people out there into the equine world to show all that they learned while attending. It's not a clinician's fault if the person attending doesn't either get it, or they misrepresent what was initially taught. So, what we see as either a PP horse, Pony Boy horse that's been "trained" by the owner isn't really accurate of what the outcome would be by the Trainer.

Buck Brennaman sits far and above them all, in my humble opinion. A true horseman, a gentleman and not a person who is a media *****. I respect the heck out of that!!!


----------



## HappyHoofPrints

I gave so many others a chance over the past 15 years but I study only Clinton Anderson now. I used his methods 5 years ago to Re-Train 2 half Arab Well-Seasoned! endurance horses that needed attitude adjustments! And then to begin my 2 full Arab youngsters for the trail. Absolutely love Down Under Horsemanship!


----------



## BBBCrone

Dark Horse said:


> I've spoken to Clint Anderson on the phone when I was interested in buying one of his signature horses. He told me to buy all his dvd's, learn his methods, attend his clinics and he'd consider selling me a horse. I've seen him in person, and again, was not impressed.


Let me start off by saying that I do not follow Clinton Anderson. However I did find this part of the post rather strange.

Okay so you aren't impressed. Fine and dandy and obviously I have zero problem with that. The other part of your post, I do.

His horses are expensive. For good reason. His horses are trained under his method. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he is asking. Fact is I find it to be a very smart business decision. If you are buying one of his horses you'd better know how to make them respond. I can see the writing on the wall if he did NOT ask you to do this.

"I bought a horse from Clinton Anderson and it cost me yadayada ... and it's no good because yadayada." See where this is going?


----------



## Livvy1123

parelli <3


----------



## SeeyaLater

What about the greats???? Ray Hunt....and today Buck Brannaman.


----------



## Padrona

I would choose Parelli over Anderson. I also love Buck Brannaman and John Lyons. 

After watching Anderson abuse and terrorize his horse at Road to the Horse, 2011, I hate his method even more than I already did. :evil: What he did to that horse is inexcusable and evil. He never gave that horse a mental break for a second. If he was with the horse, he was yanking, cranking, whipping, jerking, and terrifying the poor thing. It was so miserable to watch, it was like a bad car accident you just can't tear your eyes away from. Yeah he "broke" the horse in two sessions alright. Broke him, as in mentally damaged him. At the end when he did his freestyle and took the bridle off to let the horse gallop, all I saw was a terrified prey animal in full panic mode running for his life. There was absolutely nothing beautiful about a cowboy galloping a horse full out without a bridle. He KNEW that horse had no buck or spook in him . So he KNEW he could gallop him without a bridle and the horse would just follow the rail and the other horse he turned loose in there with it. He took advantage of that poor colt's terror. It was one of the most vile and disgusting things I have ever seen in my life.

Chris Cox and Pat Parelli took a gentler approach, although Cox was still a lot rougher than I cared for. 

While Cox and Anderson were busy throwing lariats at their horse and forcing them into a wild gallop around the round pen, Parelli had his horse gently and curiously approaching him at a walk. While the other two horses were lathered in sweat and panting for air, Parelli's horse was just curiously checking out all the stuf, and following Pat around the pen. Yes he was a friendly colt anyway, but Parelli was right when he said that "anybody can drive any horse wild." If Anderson had drawn Parelli's friendly colt Hey Whiskey (Troubador), he would have made him a crazy, tizzed up freak show just like he did the other colt. I watched Anderson tie up a perfectly calm, gentle, friendly little colt to a round pen fence and then proceed to throw plastic bags up in the little colt's face to purposely spook him into pulling back. He was trying to demonstrate how a pulling horse can get hurt by pulling back, so buy my blocker tie ring instead. SERIOULSY. You dim witted moron. You just wrecked a curious, friendly baby horse's mind by tying him solid then forcing him to pull back until he dang near breaks his neck. Awesome training there buddy. :evil:


----------



## BBBCrone

This is BBBCrone's husband so bear with my novice opinion. Ive watched PP, CA, Buck Brennaman and Chris Cox. Of all of them, I would say Buck is probably my favorite and PP is my least favorite. Buck, CA and Chris all demand the respect/trust of the horse. You WILL do what I ask, your a horse if you dont you can hurt me. Parrelli to me seems more like a dog trainer in the aspect you want to the horse to be a pet. I have yet to see PP take a "hot" horse and be able to train him. I watched Buck and CA take extremely "hot" horses and within a few days have the horses respect/TRUST. Something I dont understand that Ive read a few times in this thread is....what is so wrong about a horse sweating? There is nothing wrong with it. Do you not sweat when you work hard? Ive watch them all ride and Parrelli struggles in certain areas. Buck, has firm approach yet is very soft spoken but still demands the respect/trust. I don't see the respect of personal space from a Parrelli trained horse that I do from a CA or Buck or Chris Cox trained horse. 

From my novice eyes, Buck and CA are the methods I will be using to train Zoot. Along with what BBBCrone knows. A 1/2 Arab 1/2 Paint year and half old gelding. He will learn we are in charge. No physical abuse but a firm, clear, concise instructions and he will be expected to have respect. 

As far as the "marketing" aspect. They all sell things, they all want you to use their products. Its call a free market and I cannot fault them. If something will help in training a horse...example from the post above...the tie ring...that will teach the horse not to pull and it makes my job easier...so the horse basically trains himself not to pull why not? As far as using plastic bags to throw up in the horses face its all part of desensitizing/sensitizing. I seriously doubt that he "ruined" that curious, friendly baby." Sounds like you want the "pasture pet" and not a 1200 pound horse that can hurt you or himself if he doesnt have the manners or proper training.


----------



## bsms

BBBCrone said:


> ...As far as using plastic bags to throw up in the horses face its all part of desensitizing/sensitizing. I seriously doubt that he "ruined" that curious, friendly baby."...


Depends on how it was done. I didn't see it. But from what I've seen with MY horses, I wouldn't consider throwing plastic bags at their heads acceptable training. That doesn't desensitize them in a way that is useful.

As typically used, desensitizing them should mean 'getting them to trust humans'. Someone good at reading horses and knowing when to back off CAN use plastic bags to achieve that end, but it would be very easy to do it in a way that DESTROYS trust.

The trainer I hired DID use plastic bags on the end of a dressage whip to help Mia understand that humans do strange things sometimes, but those strange things wont hurt you. But it was also obvious that if done wrong, it would have taught Mia that humans are psycho-freaks who like to terrorize horses. I consider the ability to read the horse's emotions a critical part of a trainer's skills. Without it, almost any training technique can turn bad fast!

I don't know how Anderson did it since I didn't see it.


----------



## BBBCrone

I didnt see how he did it in reference to Padrona, but I have seen his DVD's where it(the bag) is on the end of his "stick and string" while the horse was tied. I highly doubt CA would "torture" a horse just to prove a point to buy a product. As far as your assessment of desensitizing, I agree...its getting a horse to trust you yet them getting over the fear of things as well. Teaching them everything out there is some big scary monster. The same way I have seen Buck take a "golf flag" and use it as well. We also dont know how "sensitive" Padrona is their description as to what "throwing it in their face to spook" is either.


----------



## jackiepentrecoed

Here in UK we don't have many 'Clinicians' of the type referred to in this thread, very few that would be classed as high profile/high exposure like you do in USA, we tend to have specialists who specialise in the various disciplines eg. show jumping, eventing, dressage ect.
Very few that actually specialize in foundation and general behaviour problems.
If you can't do it yourself then you take your horse and have it broken/started/trained by someone recommended by friends or by reputation within the field of your chosen sport, then further down the line you would find a trainer and attend (usually private or small groups) lessons, (uk being so small you don't have to travel very far to find someone to teach you and any given discipline)
A lot of children are bought up going to pony club (you own and keep your own pony as opposed to riding schools where you hire ponies) and instructors are available in all discipline for a moderate cost, qualified riding instructors can be found every where!

But to my mind riding and keeping horses is not just about being able to ride well in the show ring or cross country but by being an allround horseman! we are good at getting good riders but not so good at being good horsemen! sorry to be going on a bit 

Monty Roberts was about the first Natural Horseman to come to UK in the 90's and for me was the first time I was exposed to new ideas and made me think outside the box of traditional British horsemanship.
Enter Natural Horsemanship! (40 years both professional and private horse ownership) but it was not until 2008 that I attended a Parelli celebration in UK that I had my mind blown away at the depth/feel/and understanding that could be achieved when NH methods were used with knowledge and love.
I have followed the Parelli program for the last 4 years and wished with all my heart that I had had exposure to NH all those years ago.
Since learning Parelli I have not closed my eyes to other NH clinicians and have sort them out when ever possible.

On TV I can now see many of the clinicians that you get in USA ; Chris Cox, Craig Cameron, Clinton Anderson, Buck Brennaman and many others. I have also watched live the last 'Road to the Horse' and I must say that I was disgusted at the way Clinton acted towards both his horse and to fellow contestants (yes I know he won it years ago) he was so direct line wanting to win he had no feel, timing or care for that horse he just wanted the job done, ok you might think he got the job done but at what cost to that horses future? I think he deserved to come last!!

I don't think of it as to whom I would chose to teach me it is more of who my horses would choose to teach them that counts!! I would safely leaving any of my seven horses (by the way none of them have behaviour or attitude problems) with; Pat Parelli, Buck Brennaman, Dave Stuart (who I have attended clinics here in UK with) and the late James Roberts who was UK's own Natural Horsemanship clinician and my mentor for the last 2.5 years. But never Clinton, he still has too big an ego for my liking, lets hope he matures and looks back and uses all he knows with more feel, timing and compassion for the horse, then I think I might look again at what he has to say.

So don't ask who you would like but who your horse would chose!!


----------



## Padrona

BBBCrone said:


> This is BBBCrone's husband so bear with my novice opinion. Ive watched PP, CA, Buck Brennaman and Chris Cox. Of all of them, I would say Buck is probably my favorite and PP is my least favorite. Buck, CA and Chris all demand the respect/trust of the horse. You WILL do what I ask, your a horse if you dont you can hurt me. Parrelli to me seems more like a dog trainer in the aspect you want to the horse to be a pet. I have yet to see PP take a "hot" horse and be able to train him. I watched Buck and CA take extremely "hot" horses and within a few days have the horses respect/TRUST. Something I dont understand that Ive read a few times in this thread is....what is so wrong about a horse sweating? There is nothing wrong with it. Do you not sweat when you work hard? Ive watch them all ride and Parrelli struggles in certain areas. Buck, has firm approach yet is very soft spoken but still demands the respect/trust. I don't see the respect of personal space from a Parrelli trained horse that I do from a CA or Buck or Chris Cox trained horse.
> 
> From my novice eyes, Buck and CA are the methods I will be using to train Zoot. Along with what BBBCrone knows. A 1/2 Arab 1/2 Paint year and half old gelding. He will learn we are in charge. No physical abuse but a firm, clear, concise instructions and he will be expected to have respect.
> 
> As far as the "marketing" aspect. They all sell things, they all want you to use their products. Its call a free market and I cannot fault them. If something will help in training a horse...example from the post above...the tie ring...that will teach the horse not to pull and it makes my job easier...so the horse basically trains himself not to pull why not? As far as using plastic bags to throw up in the horses face its all part of desensitizing/sensitizing. I seriously doubt that he "ruined" that curious, friendly baby." Sounds like you want the "pasture pet" and not a 1200 pound horse that can hurt you or himself if he doesnt have the manners or proper training.


Well I have to say that you're wrong about Parelli not being able to train a HOT a horse. I have a super hot, high strung Arabian that gets wrung out on adrenaline and has great days but horrible days too. I tried all types of trainers, methods, supplements, feeding programs. I did use a Clinton Anderson trainer and he ran her in a round pen for hours until she was lathered in sweat, and he got NOWHERE with her. Absolutely flat NOWHERE. Dressage lessons, trail rides, endurance rides, shows, we've done lot without really accomplishing anything actually.

Completely exhausted with this horse an with her hot, spooky nature, I hauled 16 hours one way for Pat Parelli to work with her for about 2 hours and she was a totally different horse. She was so damned strung out on adrenaline, she ran the fence for 30 minutes, barely even acknowledging Pat existed. She was twisting her head like a crazy psycho and would NOT settle down. He kept commenting how extreme she is. 

Normally he would work with a horse about 1 - 1/12 hours and then give them back to the owner after the transformation took place, but she was so hot and so difficult, he left the coliseum and worked her in the barn one on one with me and without the crowd. He did not feel she was at a good stopping point in the coliseum. I was so happy he put the horse first and did what was right by her, and me. 


TODAY, she is a different horse ENTIRELY. I have used his program to get through to this mare and change her once and for all. I started her over completely from scratch at the friendly game and have been building my way up. I am now riding her bareback in a halter, or bridle, and she is doing awesome. Instead of getting strung out on adrenaline and not allowing anyone to control her feet, she is a very happy partner. I am literally thrilled every day to go out there and work and ride her whereas before I would just get frustrated and want to cry many times. 

I have to disagree with you very strongly because the #1 complaint I have about my mare is how HOT she is. She is a halter bred Arabian and is prone to be a drama queen and be very difficult to handle at times. At other times she would be a puppy dog a kid could ride bareback, but if the sitaution was right, she would get very hot and spooky. 

Pat nailed it down for me that the horse isn't afraid of objects. She is afraid of a human controlling her feet while she is high on adrenaline. WOW. He summed up her whole life 5 minutes after meeting her. All these years I have tried to desensitize her to STUFF. I have tried to teach her how to spook in place, etc. but it had nothing to do with the spooking. She's an adrenaline junky that gets an endorphin rush off the adrenaline release. He showed me how to control her movement and get her down OFF the adrenaline, and then further, how to never let her go to that place of adrenaline in the first place.

All my friends I ride and compete with know how difficult this horse is. She can be awesome one day but a dragon the next day. The horse that Pat Parelli worked with was the dragon. But he got through to her, and he made a transformation in her, and in me, that I can't describe. 

She is also an extremely dominant, opinionated mare who has no problem kicking or running you down if she feels she needs to get on top of the human.

I have had LITERALLY ZERO PROBLEMS since we got back home from the tour stop.

Pat had his hands full with this one. There were times I was actually afraid I owned the horse that would break Pat Parelli. I sat in the stands with my hand over my mouth half the time. I was horrified, embarassed, and scared for Pat. My horse was all the talk on the Parelli forums for weeks after the event. Everybody wanted to know more about her, know her history. They were so supportive and offered advice freely.

I just got in from outside working with my mare this morning. Everything I do with her now, is with a smile on my face. She is very respectful, attentive, and she tries every time. We don't fight like we used to, although I am asking exponentially more of her than I ever have before. 

So I don't mind defending the Parelli program because I have seen firsthand what it can do for a REALLY difficult horse.


----------



## Padrona

bsms said:


> Depends on how it was done. I didn't see it. But from what I've seen with MY horses, I wouldn't consider throwing plastic bags at their heads acceptable training. That doesn't desensitize them in a way that is useful.
> 
> As typically used, desensitizing them should mean 'getting them to trust humans'. Someone good at reading horses and knowing when to back off CAN use plastic bags to achieve that end, but it would be very easy to do it in a way that DESTROYS trust.
> 
> The trainer I hired DID use plastic bags on the end of a dressage whip to help Mia understand that humans do strange things sometimes, but those strange things wont hurt you. But it was also obvious that if done wrong, it would have taught Mia that humans are psycho-freaks who like to terrorize horses. I consider the ability to read the horse's emotions a critical part of a trainer's skills. Without it, almost any training technique can turn bad fast!
> 
> I don't know how Anderson did it since I didn't see it.


I agree with Chris Cox who says he hates the term desensitization, and a horse should never be desensitized. But I get what you're saying. I expose my horses to as much stuff as I can. I haul out to ride a lot, I work with my horses every day, and I dont' just want pasture pets, as someone here accused me of. I want good, all around, WORKING horses. 

But what Clinton Anderson did was take a yearling colt, tie him hard to a solid wood round pen fence, and then purpose jump at the horse's face with plastic bags in his hand to force the horse into a pull-back panic. He was demonstrating how hard a horse fights a hard tie. Then he attached the horse to a blocker tie ring (that he sells) and did the same spooking with the bags. The horse pulled back but the rope slid through the ring. 

I thought it was awful how he purposely taught that horse to pull back just to market his prodct.


----------



## gypsygirl

sounds like you just didnt understand CA, he certainly doesnt want you to teach your horse to spook in place !


----------



## Padrona

gypsygirl said:


> sounds like you just didnt understand CA, he certainly doesnt want you to teach your horse to spook in place !


I have no use for Anderson or his abuse and torture of horses. So I would have no idea what he teaches or doesn't teach, and don't have any interest in knowing. I prefer a kinder, gentler approach.


----------



## jackiepentrecoed

Excellent post Padrona and not because you support Parelli NH but because you had the heart and desire to seek out help for your horse and got it, and you both came away with knowledge and understanding from the horses point of view, when we can understand it from the horses point of view we can then help them but without that we will never help them through whatever is making them hot/aggressive/spooky/shy. 
I know when I see a good horseman when I see one and having a good rapport with a horse dose not mean it is a pet.


----------



## bsms

gypsygirl said:


> sounds like you just didnt understand CA, he certainly doesnt want you to teach your horse to spook in place !


Where I live, spook in place means the horse's first reaction to something scary is to wait for the rider to decide what to do. It means 'stand still and listen to your rider instead of run mindlessly away'. It isn't a bad thing at all...:wink:

I LIKE horses that spook in place.


----------



## gypsygirl

Padrona said:


> I have no use for Anderson or his abuse and torture of horses. So I would have no idea what he teaches or doesn't teach, and don't have any interest in knowing. I prefer a kinder, gentler approach.


i guess im not understanding. so you had an idiot who called themself a CA trainer run your horse around and now CA is abusive and tortures horses ? I guess i dont see the correlation ?


----------



## jackiepentrecoed

I would like to ask any Clinton Anderson supporter if they were proud of his performance at the 2011 RTTH? and would you have liked that to have been your horse?


----------



## TheAQHAGirl

Clinton Anderson. 

If Parelli people aren't calling this abuse






Then Clinton's is no where near abuse.

I also do not like that way that Pat says 'my way or the high way'. Very arrogant, I will never follow a person like that.

I have heard many things and his way is very 'fluffy' and unrealistic.

He has stated before, that you can be 'one' with your horse. There shouldn't be a leader in the relationship, etc. and that you and your horse should be on the same level. Which is flat-out bogus. If you look at a heard of horses in the pasture or the wild there is no such thing as horses 'being one'. There is always a alpha horse, and then a less-dominant horse. No such thing as 'one' in the world of the horse. If your not going to be the leader then the horse will be.

I've also been told by a Pat Parelli guy that if your horse bites you, ignore it or give him a carrot. He was serious. I just looked at him like, "Are you for real?"

Anyways I've seen many horses through the Parelli program. None of them came up normal, to say the most. A friend did the Parelli program and she told me that she saw no improvement in her horses, and if anything they got even worse and bored. 

Parelli, IMO, uses unrealistic approaches to horses. His arrogance turns me the other way, and all the Parelli horses I've seen are bad. Hes simply not my cup of tea.

Clinton on the other hand is what I like. I've seen many Clinton horses, and they're just fabulous. All are quiet, calm, etc. They're great horses. Better than what I've seen Parelli do.

And if I'm correct I believe that Clinton was one of Parelli's students at one point..

But other than Clinton I really like Larry Trocha and John Lyons and Buck Brannaman.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

Pssh. None of them. The problem with these trainers in the micro-analyzation of every move the horse makes. I have encountered both PP and CA trained horses. I've had a few that I restarted to make bridle horses, and the first and foremost thing is I had to let them air out and be a horse again. Some horses this took almost a year. And when they came to me, they didn't enjoy being messed with. They would pin their years when you approached them. And only because they were so annoyed with all their previous training. I just let them be horses again I dropped all of the countless hours of lunging, brought them back to the basics, treated them like unbroken colts. I let them make mistakes at first. Now they are some very nice spade bridle horses. My favorite publiic trainer is The late Bill Dorrance. As far as PP and CA. I'm out!


----------



## gypsygirl

bsms said:


> Where I live, spook in place means the horse's first reaction to something scary is to wait for the rider to decide what to do. It means 'stand still and listen to your rider instead of run mindlessly away'. It isn't a bad thing at all...:wink:
> 
> I LIKE horses that spook in place.


i guess we have different thoughts then. i dont care if my horse moves a bit, as long as they keep out of my space, but i want them to relax quickly even if they get scared. i would rather have a little movement followed quickly by relaxation, then a tense horse glued to one spot.


----------



## Hang on Fi

I prefer Clinton, mostly because I've seen Parelli followers try and befriend their horses with bribery or coddling that results in being trampled by their horse or crowding them. I recall a situation where we had the grain bucket race and there were two individuals that I knew followed the Parelli circle... Their horses about clobbered them for a bucket of grain. 

I like that Clinton is a bit firmer (sometimes to a fault) and I've liked his methods. However, that being said I stay away from any horses that have "natural horsemanship" tied into their sale ads. More often than not they're a part-time natural horsemanship "trainer" with a horse that has no respect. 

Then again anyone trying to be a "friend" with a thousand pound animal is asking to be walked all over.

I've done things Clinton has done, but I don't follow him "religiously" I prefer John Lyons


----------



## jackiepentrecoed

I don't want to argue but some of the things you say can't go by without comment!



TheAQHAGirl said:


> Clinton Anderson.
> 
> If Parelli people aren't calling this abuse
> 
> Pat Parelli Abuses Horse "Catwalk" at Natural Horsemanship Demonstration - YouTube


I didn't actually see anything from that short grainy film that was abusive just a difficult horse (who by the way was not showing signs of fear more of determined attitude not to be handled around the head)



TheAQHAGirl said:


> Then Clinton's is no where near abuse.
> 
> I also do not like that way that Pat says 'my way or the high way'. Very arrogant, I will never follow a person like that.
> 
> I have heard many things and his way is very 'fluffy' and unrealistic.
> 
> He has stated before, that you can be 'one' with your horse. There shouldn't be a leader in the relationship, etc. and that you and your horse should be on the same level. Which is flat-out bogus. If you look at a heard of horses in the pasture or the wild there is no such thing as horses 'being one'. There is always a alpha horse, and then a less-dominant horse. No such thing as 'one' in the world of the horse. If your not going to be the leader then the horse will be.


This is totally wrong in Parelli NH we are taught that the relationship is 51%human 49% horse, Humans should always be the alpha



TheAQHAGirl said:


> I've also been told by a Pat Parelli guy that if your horse bites you, ignore it or give him a carrot. He was serious. I just looked at him like, "Are you for real?"


In PNH we don't retaliate we get the horse to back up out of our space so that can't bite. your 'Parelli guy was wrong!



TheAQHAGirl said:


> Anyways I've seen many horses through the Parelli program. None of them came up normal, to say the most. A friend did the Parelli program and she told me that she saw no improvement in her horses, and if anything they got even worse and bored.


 I think that says more about your friend that it does about Parelli! 



TheAQHAGirl said:


> Parelli, IMO, uses unrealistic approaches to horses. His arrogance turns me the other way, and all the Parelli horses I've seen are bad. Hes simply not my cup of tea.
> 
> Clinton on the other hand is what I like. I've seen many Clinton horses, and they're just fabulous. All are quiet, calm, etc. They're great horses. Better than what I've seen Parelli do.


That's ok we all are allow an opinion



TheAQHAGirl said:


> And if I'm correct I believe that Clinton was one of Parelli's students at one point..
> 
> But other than Clinton I really like Larry Trocha and John Lyons and Buck Brannaman.


----------



## bsms

gypsygirl said:


> ...i would rather have a little movement followed quickly by relaxation, then a tense horse glued to one spot.


The goal isn't a tense horse rooted in one spot. It is a spooked horse who waits for his rider to decide what to do. If the horse is tense because there is a rattlesnake in front of us, we may turn around. If it is a quad, I may find a spot off the trail where we can let it go by. And if it is some bit of trash someone dumped in the desert and doesn't look like it belongs there, we'll go on past it or over it. My call.

I've had them stop for javelina, coyotes, snakes, ATVs, loose dogs, aluminum foil...and how I want to respond varies. I don't want a horse who goes forward even if he sees a rattlesnake and I do not. I don't need an immobile horse. I do need one that waits for my decision. Standing still and waiting for instruction beats the tar out of running in blind panic...


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

jackiepentrecoed said:


> I don't want to argue but some of the things you say can't go by without comment!
> 
> 
> I didn't actually see anything from that short grainy film that was abusive just a difficult horse (who by the way was not showing signs of fear more of determined attitude not to be handled around the head)
> 
> 
> This is totally wrong in Parelli NH we are taught that the relationship is 51%human 49% horse, Humans should always be the alpha
> 
> 
> In PNH we don't retaliate we get the horse to back up out of our space so that can't bite. your 'Parelli guy was wrong!
> 
> I think that says more about your friend that it does about Parelli!
> 
> 
> That's ok we all are allow an opinion


If you have to twitch a horse to touch his head, you are seriously lacking in your training program, I don't care who you are or how much money you make or how many followers you have, that isn't a good practice and will ultimately make things a lot worse...


----------



## bsms

jackiepentrecoed said:


> ...This is totally wrong in Parelli NH we are taught that the relationship is 51%human 49% horse, Humans should always be the alpha
> 
> ...In PNH we don't retaliate we get the horse to back up out of our space so that can't bite. your 'Parelli guy was wrong!...


My horses prefer a higher ratio of human control. If they have 49%, they could go to 50.1% pretty easily, and that makes them tense. They act happier if they believe they don't have any decisions to make.

I would retaliate if my horse bit me. I'd not just back them out of my space, I'd have them wanting to leave the planet! And if I chose to spare their life, then we could go back to normal.

But I'm a nobody, and my horses aren't anything to boast about. YMMV.


----------



## gypsygirl

bsms said:


> The goal isn't a tense horse rooted in one spot. It is a spooked horse who waits for his rider to decide what to do. If the horse is tense because there is a rattlesnake in front of us, we may turn around. If it is a quad, I may find a spot off the trail where we can let it go by. And if it is some bit of trash someone dumped in the desert and doesn't look like it belongs there, we'll go on past it or over it. My call.
> 
> I've had them stop for javelina, coyotes, snakes, ATVs, loose dogs, aluminum foil...and how I want to respond varies. I don't want a horse who goes forward even if he sees a rattlesnake and I do not. I don't need an immobile horse. I do need one that waits for my decision. Standing still and waiting for instruction beats the tar out of running in blind panic...


i dont want my horse to panic bolt...clearly. i want her to deal and relax and keep on doing what shes doing, i dont want her to stop and i dont necessarily want her to wait for me. if theres a dog or an atv she shouldnt have to stop trotting and wait for direction, she should keep trotting and navigate calmly.

what would i do at a show if she stopped at everything that spooked her a bit ?


----------



## jackiepentrecoed

Wanstrom Horses said:


> If you have to twitch a horse to touch his head, you are seriously lacking in your training program, I don't care who you are or how much money you make or how many followers you have, that isn't a good practice and will ultimately make things a lot worse...


I admire your thinking and in many ways I too agree, but and there is always a but! like many things/tools in the wrong hands are dangerous and cruel, in certain situations there is a place for twitching, done with care and consideration, for example I personally know what the affects are ( natural release of sedating endorphins) and in extreme situations and for the safety of both horse and handlers a humane lip twitch (in UK we have a none rope metal device that can be applied/released in seconds) is far better than some of the alternatives!
I have one in my yard, I have not had the need to use it for years now, but I would not hesitate to use it if I deemed it to be useful for a particular situation.
I worked with stallions/studs many years ago and observed the way they used the same bite/twitch (on the neck) to calm mares.


----------



## bsms

gypsygirl said:


> ...what would i do at a show if she stopped at everything that spooked her a bit ?


With time, they will learn what bothers their rider and what does not. Mia used to be scared because a palo verde tree shed its flowers. Now she doesn't care. Trooper did get scared once...kids on a trampoline. They were behind a fence, and all he could hear/see was kids screaming, and then flying up in the air. He was quite concerned at whatever it was behind the fence that was flinging screaming kids in the air. Now that he's seen it a few times, he knows that doesn't bother me so it doesn't need to bother him.

OTOH, he knows I don't like to ride over the top of rattlesnakes. That is good. I don't want a horse who goes forward without regard for what lies ahead. I doubt you do either...a good horse is somewhere in between. Not constantly stopping, not rooted with fear, but not unaware of what lies ahead.


----------



## Wanstrom Horses

gypsygirl said:


> i dont want my horse to panic bolt...clearly. i want her to deal and relax and keep on doing what shes doing, i dont want her to stop and i dont necessarily want her to wait for me. if theres a dog or an atv she shouldnt have to stop trotting and wait for direction, she should keep trotting and navigate calmly.
> 
> what would i do at a show if she stopped at everything that spooked her a bit ?


I'm not saying twitches are cruel, they can be very useful for the correct circumstances. But when you are trying to reach a headshy horse, like PP was doing in the video AQHAGirl posted, that is an unnacceptable way of training a horse to "enjoy" his head being touched.. I've seen it done a hundred times and there was never a good outcome to it. They just ended up with a horse that you couldn't touch his ears, head or mouth. I'm not against twitches. I do prefer war bridles to twitches though. But as far as using them for specifically training a headshy horse, IMO, it shouldnt be done.


----------



## gypsygirl

we dont have rattlesnakes here so its a non issue.

i cant imagine wanting my horse to stop. especially if i was showing. pretty much anything i can think of that would spook her she could navigate. yes, she might hesitate, but she shouldnt stop.

at the last event i was at the cross country course was full of halloween decorations. it was also 15 degrees F, sleeting, with high winds. there was plenty to spook at, and believe me, gypsy looked at a lot. but when it came down to it, she never once stopped, she maintained her gait and thought forward all the time. if she hesitated to told her to go and that it was fine, and she believed me. 

i guess its probably the difference between a trail rider and a show rider. we require different things out of our horses. although i have no different requirements on the trail.


----------



## bsms

Guess we differ. If we're both getting what we want out of our horses, that's OK! :wink:


----------



## jackiepentrecoed

bsms said:


> My horses prefer a higher ratio of human control. If they have 49%, they could go to 50.1% pretty easily, and that makes them tense. They act happier if they believe they don't have any decisions to make.
> 
> I would retaliate if my horse bit me. I'd not just back them out of my space, I'd have them wanting to leave the planet! And if I chose to spare their life, then we could go back to normal.
> 
> But I'm a nobody, and my horses aren't anything to boast about. YMMV.


Even with a 51% human, 49% horse relationship does not mean that my horses would not like to sometimes try it on and alpha over me, but when you have gained that 51/49 it's not that hard to maintain  if the ratio gets much wider it won't be fun for either of you!

Even so, my horses still have their responsibilities and can make decisions (I don't want a robot  ) his quick thinking might be needed to get us out of a tricky spot one day.


----------



## jaydee

Given its a choice of the two then I'd have to say CA - though I wouldn't hang on his every word - he does seem to be more of a 'what you see is what you get' guy and makes no secret of the fact that he does get tough with horses and his horses do work better for him than PP's ever seem to do - and all the tricks - what is the real practical point in all of that? Why not get a poodle?
Beats me why novices dont just buy a good grounded schoolmaster, spend time around good trainers, learn about management, handling horses, how to ride properly and save themselves a lot of hassle. You learn the ropes and then move on to the green horses if you want too


----------



## Padrona

Yes, I had a CA trainer run my horse around the round pen. It was about 5 years ago before I knew the first thing about ANY natural horsemanship trainers. I also hired a John Lyons certified trainer and that also failed. And I love JL! 

As for Catwalk - I remember when that whole deal was hashed out for about 70 pages on a different horse forum. What I got from that conversation is that that video is the ONLY one that exists of that event, and the quality is terrible so you can't even really see what's going on.

Also, the owner of Catwalk basically stated that the horse is very extreme, he's dangerous, and his extreme resistance to bridling has never been able to be fixed, or even improved by anybody. Medical testing, training, lots of different equipment - nothing would help that horse get over it. Pat did use an extreme approach for an extreme situation. This was a stallion who had picked up a dangerous habit and Parelli was trying to break the horse's fight habit once and for all. 

Back when that was all the hoopty hoo on the forums, I had no knowledge of Parelli whatsoever. I had no connection to the Parelli program, and didn't give a hoot about natural horsemanship. I saw the terrible quality video, read all the comments, saw the follow up videos with the vet and the horse's owner, read the 70 whatever pages of conversation, and the conclusion I came to was that Pat Parelli was asked to try to fix a very dangerous and extreme behavior on a breeding, racing stallion. He had to go to extreme measures to try to break the horse's dangerous behavior. Having a leg tied up, and a gum line in place is a heck of a lot kinder than ending up on a slaughter truck headed for France because the stallion was too dangerous to keep around! My opinion on that situation basically has not changed. 

When Pat worked with my mare, he also went to some extreme measures. He actually kicked her in the gutt once, but that was because he went through about 10 levels of pressure prior to that, and she just KEPT running over the top of him and would not respect his space whatsoever. He didn't chase her down and kick her, but when she came at him, he sure flung the toe of his boot up there and defended his space. I would have done the same. You can NOT allow a horse to run you down. You just can't. It's dangerous. He tried using the stick, the rope, a stick with the bag on the end, and she would NOT stop running over the top of him. She was so strung out on adrenaline, I honestly don't even think she knew he was there. He HAD to get through to her somehow. I was at the end of the line with this mare. I tried everything. I have owned, raised, ridden, shown, and trained a lot of horses and I have never EVER encountered one so dominant and hot as this one. When something trips her off, she can be dangerous. Pat had to peel back the layers of her behavioral problems and get to the root cause. 

But what CA did to that poor colt at RTTH 2011 was outright abuse because this was an untouched, wild colt and CA basically treated him like a rank, dangerous stallion. He wasn't. He was just a colt totally innocent and ignorant. He had no baggage or bad habits or problems. But because he was a huge colt, and very athletic, CA went into that round pen with the intention of wearing him down and breaking him mentally because he knew that was the only way he'd win.


----------



## Hang on Fi

Padrona said:


> But what CA did to that poor colt at RTTH 2011 was outright abuse because this was an untouched, wild colt and CA basically treated him like a rank, dangerous stallion. He wasn't. He was just a colt totally innocent and ignorant. He had no baggage or bad habits or problems. But because he was a huge colt, and very athletic, CA went into that round pen with the intention of wearing him down and breaking him mentally because he knew that was the only way he'd win.


I have not seen this clip - do you have one available to view? The only one I found was him running the horse around bridleless or something and ran into the wall. That was the extent of that one. 

That being said; all trainers have a moment of complete idiocy that someone catches on camera. 

Heck, I dropped my sister-in-law's Arabian on the ground the old fashioned way because she was to the point I could not get her to pay attention to me and was being dangerous. 

Would I do that again? No... but it's easier to tell someone to walk away from a frustrated situation than it is to actually walk from one..


----------



## Padrona

Hang on Fi said:


> I have not seen this clip - do you have one available to view? The only one I found was him running the horse around bridleless or something and ran into the wall. That was the extent of that one.
> 
> That being said; all trainers have a moment of complete idiocy that someone catches on camera.
> 
> Heck, I dropped my sister-in-law's Arabian on the ground the old fashioned way because she was to the point I could not get her to pay attention to me and was being dangerous.
> 
> Would I do that again? No... but it's easier to tell someone to walk away from a frustrated situation than it is to actually walk from one..


I can try to find something and post it. I watched the full length DVDs, so I'm not aware of any you tube clips. A person really needs to see the whole 5+ hours of the entire competition to see everything CA does from start to finish. Yes, anyone can be caught at a bad moment, but this was 5 hours of "bad moments" for CA in that competition. That horse never got one moment of relief. I was honestly shocked that the competition organizers didn't step in and tell him to cool his jets with that poor colt. 

In the first segment they are required to give the horse 30 minutes of rest, and it cannot be taken all at the end. The announcer had to REMIND CA to give his horse a break, or he wasn't going to be in compliance with the rules. Parelli and Cox kept giving the horse a few minutes here and there to think and process something they were taught. CA just would.not.quit. 

I put my DVD player on slow motion and watched in detail a segment about 5 minutes long where CA yanked and jerked that horse around so hard he was actually rearing, striking out, teeth bared, mouth gaped wide open, and nearly flipping over backwards. This is a BABY horse. No experience with humans other than 1 week of halter breaking as a weanling, and then turned out in a field and untouched for 3 years. Then he shows up in CA's round pen and gets ruined. 

Trying to fix a bad, dangerous problem horse is one thing. I get that sometimes you do have to go to some extreme measures. Horsemanship isn't always beautiful and subtle. Horses beat the crap out of each other and deliver dangerous kicks and bites. Sometimes they break bones on each other. So if a human has to run a gum line or kick a horse in the gutt ocassionally because they are so entrenched in their dangerous behavior, they're going to hurt someone, then ok. That's better than somebody getting hurt! 

But when you just attack a 3 yr old colt like that for no reason, that is abuse and is completely unacceptable in my opinion. During that whole competition, CA could hardly catch his breath. He was wringing wet with sweat and panting into his microphone because he was so exhausted from running, chasing, flapping, slapping, jerking, etc... Parelli never lost his breath or shed a bead of sweat, and Chris Cox was somewhere in between the two of them.


----------



## Hang on Fi

Ah, they were DVD's, makes sense why I couldn't find it. 

Don't get the wrong impression by my post, I wasn't defending him (or any trainer) sometimes our emotions get the better of us and we end up doing something we regret that shows incompetence versus control. I certainly don't condone what he did, but because I haven't seen it... I can't really say. 

I don't care for natural horsemanship, period. Just because the hype that goes with it and the half-bum attempts to train their horses the "natural" way. It kills me when someone is afraid to push a horse around when they're a feeble 80lbs to this 800-1000lb animal only because they're hurting themselves not helping their horse. 

I believe there should be a happy medium of a firm hand and an understanding mind to make a sound horse. 

I do see what you're saying though.


----------



## RQEquestrianCenter

I encourage my students to look at all trainers. You can learn something from them all.


----------



## smrobs

gypsygirl said:


> we dont have rattlesnakes here so its a non issue.
> 
> i cant imagine wanting my horse to stop. especially if i was showing. pretty much anything i can think of that would spook her she could navigate. yes, she might hesitate, but she shouldnt stop.
> 
> i guess its probably the difference between a trail rider and a show rider. we require different things out of our horses. although i have no different requirements on the trail.


I don't think you are grasping the entire concept that bsms is getting at. What he's saying is that the horse's first response on _their own_ should be to stop and wait for instructions before reacting to a stimuli, whatever it may be. The thing is, there is such a learning curve about what the response should be to an individual stimuli. Plus, a good rider can give direction in almost the same instant as the horse begins to react. On an older, more trained horse, I can see what they are spooking at as soon as I feel them tense...and react just as quickly. So, I can either choose to stop, turn, or urge the horse on before they get the chance to fully stop or, often, even change gait.

There is a partnership going on there and if you have a good horse, you should be able to trust their judgment too. So, when my horses are old enough and trained enough that I have started to trust them to think for themselves a bit, then I start accepting their _advice_ in the direction we're going. 

For example, just a few years ago, I wanted to cross a creek. My horse, Dobe, was very hesitant and was basically saying in big neon letters "There's something wrong, I don't want to go that way", where before, he never hesitated at any water crossing. I ignored him because I was in a hurry and pushed him to go ahead. He went, but I soon wished I hadn't asked because he ended up bogged completely down and it took about a half hour and another saddle horse with a rope to get him out.

So you see, there is a bit of give and take. Where I ride, a horse that spooks and moves can get themselves or you seriously hurt or killed, depending on the situation. Therefore, for our own safety and for theirs, it is safer if a horse's first instinct is to stop and ask you want to do instead of deciding on their own which way to go.


----------



## GotaDunQH

Padrona said:


> I can try to find something and post it. I watched the full length DVDs, so I'm not aware of any you tube clips. A person really needs to see the whole 5+ hours of the entire competition to see everything CA does from start to finish. Yes, anyone can be caught at a bad moment, but this was 5 hours of "bad moments" for CA in that competition. That horse never got one moment of relief. I was honestly shocked that the competition organizers didn't step in and tell him to cool his jets with that poor colt.
> 
> In the first segment they are required to give the horse 30 minutes of rest, and it cannot be taken all at the end. The announcer had to REMIND CA to give his horse a break, or he wasn't going to be in compliance with the rules. Parelli and Cox kept giving the horse a few minutes here and there to think and process something they were taught. CA just would.not.quit.
> 
> I put my DVD player on slow motion and watched in detail a segment about 5 minutes long where CA yanked and jerked that horse around so hard he was actually rearing, striking out, teeth bared, mouth gaped wide open, and nearly flipping over backwards. This is a BABY horse. No experience with humans other than 1 week of halter breaking as a weanling, and then turned out in a field and untouched for 3 years. Then he shows up in CA's round pen and gets ruined.
> 
> Trying to fix a bad, dangerous problem horse is one thing. I get that sometimes you do have to go to some extreme measures. Horsemanship isn't always beautiful and subtle. Horses beat the crap out of each other and deliver dangerous kicks and bites. Sometimes they break bones on each other. So if a human has to run a gum line or kick a horse in the gutt ocassionally because they are so entrenched in their dangerous behavior, they're going to hurt someone, then ok. That's better than somebody getting hurt!
> 
> But when you just attack a 3 yr old colt like that for no reason, that is abuse and is completely unacceptable in my opinion. During that whole competition, CA could hardly catch his breath. He was wringing wet with sweat and panting into his microphone because he was so exhausted from running, chasing, flapping, slapping, jerking, etc... Parelli never lost his breath or shed a bead of sweat, and Chris Cox was somewhere in between the two of them.


I'm not a fan of either CA OR PP and BOTH of them have had beat-downs caught on tape, so they are both in the same boat. Linda has a nice video herself of tormenting a horse blind in one eye. You know, if you CAN'T make your point in 3 seconds...then you are in over your head...period. That goes for CA, for the Parellis...whoever. The vids I've seen from the PP camp are just bad horse sense...period.


----------



## BBBCrone

I dont hang on any ones particular program however what I do see being said here is its ok if YOUR personal favorite abuses a horse because it was a bad situation and needed done. How old was "Catwalk"? Do you even know? Probably not, so lets not make unproven statements. Secondly a three year old horse still weighs 1000-1200 pounds and is NOT a "baby." I see how you try to make CA look bad because you are a Parelli person. CA is in competition with your favorite he's TOTALLY WRONG mean and cruel. Sounds like hypocrisy at its finest to me. The point being NO ONE is perfect. What I know is I would rather have a horse that respects me and from what I HAVE SEEN Parelli's horses are rude compared to CA's, BB's and Chris Cox's. Im not saying Parelli doesn't have some good things to learn. I just dont like his "games." The old saying goes..."its all fun and games until someone loses an eye"


----------



## Padrona

BBBCrone said:


> I dont hang on any ones particular program however what I do see being said here is its ok if YOUR personal favorite abuses a horse because it was a bad situation and needed done. How old was "Catwalk"? Do you even know? Probably not, so lets not make unproven statements. Secondly a three year old horse still weighs 1000-1200 pounds and is NOT a "baby." I see how you try to make CA look bad because you are a Parelli person. CA is in competition with your favorite he's TOTALLY WRONG mean and cruel. Sounds like hypocrisy at its finest to me. The point being NO ONE is perfect. What I know is I would rather have a horse that respects me and from what I HAVE SEEN Parelli's horses are rude compared to CA's, BB's and Chris Cox's. Im not saying Parelli doesn't have some good things to learn. I just dont like his "games." The old saying goes..."its all fun and games until someone loses an eye"


ACtually Clinton Anderson proved himself an abusive monster on RFDTV to me years ago - long before I knew anything about Road to the Horse competition. I was actually sitting in front of the TV horrified that this abuse could be broadcast on national television. I thought - REALLY?! If someone were doing this stuff to a dog or a kid they would be locked up for 5 years. :evil:


----------



## bsms

Padrona said:


> ACtually Clinton Anderson proved himself an abusive monster on RFDTV to me years ago...sitting in front of the TV horrified that this abuse could be broadcast on national television...


I suspect, then, that your definition of abuse differs from a lot of people. You mentioned Pat Parelli kicking your horse in the stomach as if it was incredible force to use against a horse that was about to run him over...let's just say that is perhaps 1% of the force my mare would use in a case like that. Horses are big, strong animals. I think the number of obnoxious horses is proportional to the number of owners who don't want to hurt their poor, little 1000 lb horse.

My definition of abuse would include Trooper, who had holes spurred thru his skin, and who still has a scar on one side (hair grew back on the other 
side). I doubt CA did anything like that...


----------



## TerciopeladoCaballo

Girls, girls, this is a poll O_O

In light of the argument;

I don't particularly vote for any one horseman, they all have their place... Yes, even the "abusive" ones, people who don't just chase a horse down, or even electrocute horses. The purpose might not be a humane or good one. If you just want a horse to DO something, well, you've got *many* ways to do that. Step it up a little and say you want a horse to respond, or "listen", to you all the time? You can do that by beating the liver out of a horse as well.

Paso Finos in their homeland are a prime example. Temple Grandin remarks on meeting these horses, saying that they clearly "hated people" but were so bred and trained for rough treatment, that they simply took it. Pasos can dance, prance, passage, trot, etc. without falling over backwards or rolling on the ground to get the abusive rider off, and with the rightly timed bludgeon to the head whenever they open their mouths or swish their tails, they can look like a perfectly tamed Dressage horse. The hard truth is that animals, as well as people, will become accustomed to almost anything. I've known women who stayed with abusive husbands when they had clear options, but they never lifted a finger against their men. No, it isn't as simple as saying this guy or that guy, this method or that method, is "correct" or "good" because the horses aren't behaving violently. Remember the infamous Rolkur video of a horse still very well working under saddle without buck or kick, yet his blue tongue flopping in the breeze? I rest my case.

Take a big breath.... If you work with horses, want to minimize or eliminate injuries and property damages, stay within the law, want to understand the mechanisms of horse behavior + horse health, want to obtain the ability to work with almost any horse effectively without causing injury or property damage, as well as achieve a bond with the horses, you *create your own horsemanship* by *observation, experimentation, and research.* Plain science. Anderson's horsemanship is _his_ horsemanship. Same with Parelli and all the others. It is up to *you*, all of you, to put together your own. Of course mimicry, monkey see monkey do, is the quickest way to get a result, or learn something, and that's what most monkeys---- people do.


----------



## Dark Horse

BBBCrone said:


> Let me start off by saying that I do not follow Clinton Anderson. However I did find this part of the post rather strange.
> 
> Okay so you aren't impressed. Fine and dandy and obviously I have zero problem with that. The other part of your post, I do.
> 
> His horses are expensive. For good reason. His horses are trained under his method. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he is asking. Fact is I find it to be a very smart business decision. If you are buying one of his horses you'd better know how to make them respond. I can see the writing on the wall if he did NOT ask you to do this.
> 
> "I bought a horse from Clinton Anderson and it cost me yadayada ... and it's no good because yadayada." See where this is going?


I've been out of the loop and didn't see your response, BBCrone, to my problem with having to buy all his dvd's prior to buying one of his horses. I really see your point of view. You're right, if I never saw anything that he did, I wouldn't know what to do with one of his horses. Agreed.

My issue was more in the condescending attitude he had. I'd told his staff that I wasn't a devoted follower of his program, had used it but had seen a lot of his shows on tv. They made the decision to put him in touch with me based on my total honesty. 

When I brought this issue up to his staff, they told me it wasn't a problem as if I did purchase a horse, I'd spend at least a day (not much time in my opinion if I knew zero about his program) learning how to work with the horse, learning his methodology and having hands on time with his staff and CA. All of which I mentioned to Mr. CA when he called and told me to buy all of his products before buying one of his horses. 

I'm not the sort to have a person powder my hind end..just show a bit of respect. No, I'm not a famous horsetrainer, or a famous anything else, but I do deserve to be treated in a respectful manner. IF he'd said to me, something to the affect of "if you purchase one of my horses w/o knowing anything about how he's trained, you both will be set up for failure" I'd have taken his commentary in a completely differernt way.

I've watched him at a clinic here in town a few years ago. I believe it was a 3day clinic. I have no idea of what was presented to the people who attended as far as what was to be expected of their horses in the physically fit sense, but on that third day, I saw exhausted horses. 

While I was there for about 2.5hrs, I don't think the horses stopped cantering for more than 30min. In fact, one horse was so tired, it went to the middle of the arena and layed down with the rider still on it. He thought nothing of it, but went over amidst the concerns of colic and said if the horse didn't get up he'd spank it. Of course, it got up and went back to another hour of canter, canter and more canter.

I have NO problem with making a horse work. I see zero issue with sweat, or even lather. I know he was trying to make the most of the time he had with the people who attended. I get that and would agree. Not taking into consideration that most horses can't work to that level isn't smart, in my opinion.

When he did allow the horses to stop so he could describe something every single one of them was not only sweating, they were all trembling with exhaustion, then it was off to canter some more. I ended up leaving before the clinic was done, so maybe he cautioned people to not work their horse to that point when they were home, I'd like to think so. 

I'm not trying to pick on CA, I've seen quite a few of his shows and like a lot of what I see. As with any trainer, you take the things that work for you, work for your horse and apply them. I think a smart horseperson has more than one way to train a horse, lot's of tools in the tool box, not just one cookie cutter way. 

Again, thank you for looking at his point of view and pointing it out.


----------



## BBBCrone

Hey! I totally forgot about that post 

Okay what you are saying now makes more sense. I understand why you might be a little miffed about that. Everyone deserves common courtesy. ESPECIALLY when dealing with a potential business transaction.

Like I said, I don't really follow him. I've learned a few things I hadn't known before. Some of his stuff I don't agree with. My hubby likes him because he's pretty good at explaining things in a way he understands. Nobody drinks anybody's kool-aid in this house though that's for sure.


----------



## skyhorse3002

I like them both. I think that sometimes Parelli can be a little to soft, but then Clinton can be a little rough. So if you take them both and do a mix then it's good. I started listening to Clinton and its because of his teaching style that I can understand what Parelli is saying. LOL.


----------



## smarties

I have very little experience with NH. I have seen Parelli being done by a couple different people at the barn that I board at. One girl is actually quite amazing. The others, I am guessing it may not be something the horse is into(I was more looking at the horses expressions and body language when going through their Parrelli training). I have done a little bit of John Lyons, and found that to be interesting. I have seen Monty Roberts in person and what I took away from that was he was all about selling stuff and breaking records in getting untrained horses backed. To quote him "26 minutes, now that's a record!"
Someone earlier mentioned common sense, That is pretty much what I try to use. Parrelli may work with some horses, CA may work with others, it depends on the horse and what type of training works with them.


----------



## bradshotwheels123

Clinton Anderson


----------



## PreciousPony

I am a fan of both Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli, but it was Parelli's techniques that I used when working through ground issues with my pony. I achieved amazing results using his methods. 

I think the reason Parelli gets a bad reputation for creating spoiled, rude horses is because Parelli is often picked up by inexperienced and uneducated horse owners. He puts his program in such a nice little package- "buy this kit, watch dvds, play the seven games, move up distinct levels, and then your horse is perfect!" I'm not saying this is what Parelli actually SAYS, but I think it's what a lot of the audience hears, or wishes they heard. So you have people with horses who are way too much for them, trying to play little games with them, claiming they are practicing "natural horsemanship," and it just doesn't work.


----------



## Sharond

Padrona said:


> ACtually Clinton Anderson proved himself an abusive monster on RFDTV to me years ago - long before I knew anything about Road to the Horse competition. I was actually sitting in front of the TV horrified that this abuse could be broadcast on national television. I thought - REALLY?! If someone were doing this stuff to a dog or a kid they would be locked up for 5 years. :evil:


I think he can be a little rough at times but I get more out of his demos than PP. that being said, I've picked up several tips from PP/LP that have worked well for me. 

I heard that CA was so angry and punched his Manager at RTTH in 2011 when it became apparent he wasn't going to win, so maybe his issues extend beyond horses? The person who told this was there, back stage, saw it.
I still watch him on RFDTV and think a lot of what he does has its place, afterall most of them do very similar things to gain respect and trust. Some just do it better, like Chris Coc, IMHO.


----------

