# My Journey in Becoming a Strong Leader



## Hoofpic

Yes I am starting my journal. Here we go. 

I titled this thread as is, because this is essentially what I've been told by many people to what my mare needs, a "Strong Leader" which is 100% true. So this is my ultimate goal with my mare, to become as strong of a leader as I am capable of being.

Riding my mare this Friday.


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## phantomhorse13

Look forward to hearing about your successful ride on Friday - with video!


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## jenkat86

Good! I'm happy to see this, @Hoofpic!


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

Yay! Can't wait to hear how the ride goes!


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## Golden Horse

Good luck for Friday


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## elle1959

Glad you're starting a journal and I hope you have a good ride on Friday.


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## Tazzie

Good luck on Friday!

I just had one comment from your thread (no, I'm not starting anything!!)

You mentioned maybe getting a Back On Track pad for her. I know @Wallaby has one for Fabs. He apparently likes it, but if I remember correctly it can be very overwhelming when first starting out. I just don't want to see your exciting day go badly because she got overwhelmed at the saddle pad!

Also, what is your mares name? I don't think I've seen it mentioned :lol:


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## Hoofpic

Thanks everyone, im so excited!

Tazzie, her name is Fly.


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## Tazzie

Now that is an adorable name!


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Now that is an adorable name!


Thanks, I love it too! When I first got her, I remember one of the boarders at the old barn asked me what her name was and I told her. She goes "as in fly on the wall?"....are you going to change it?" Im like "uhh why? I love her name".:icon_rolleyes:


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## greentree

As long as she didn't get the name from sending people flying!


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> As long as she didn't get the name from sending people flying!


:neutral:


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## phantomhorse13

I hear "fly" and think of speed! I like it.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

phantomhorse13 said:


> I hear "fly" and think of speed! I like it.


Me too! I know a very successful barrel horse named Fly.


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## sarahfromsc

When I hear 'fly' it takes me back to the slang of the 70's.

Hells bells I'm old.....lolol


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## phantomhorse13

sarahfromsc said:


> When I hear 'fly' it takes me back to the slang of the 70's.
> 
> Hells bells I'm old.....lolol


You could pretend it makes you think of the song "pretty fly for a white guy" .. that was at least from the 90s? :wink:


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## sarahfromsc

phantomhorse13 said:


> You could pretend it makes you think of the song "pretty fly for a white guy" .. that was at least from the 90s? :wink:


That would make me as young as my kids...lol....and like them I was naive to the ways of the world.


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## Hoofpic

I had another great lesson today with my outside trainer. 

The only thing I find is the most difficult learning from a Parelli trainer is that they are so specific in the techniques. Like when you do it after, it has to be bang on.

Because of this, some times Ive had difficulty comprehending instructions as its taken me a bit longer to learn and grasp on but once I do, its good as gold.

I dont know what it is, but I find my body language is more on edge when working with instructors when it comes to groundwork (its because I know I have a set of eyes on me that are analyzing me), but once Im on my own, Im almost like a completely different person. I felt this on Monday night when I brought my mare into the arena (just her and I) and I did some groundwork with her and I tell you, over the past few weeks, things (that havent before) have started to now feel natural to me. I think its my confidence. I have more confidence today than I did a month ago and I can feel it.

She told me again today that she truly believes I shouldnt be riding my mare on Friday because my mare is very green and green + green = black and blue. She just said that "shes not good enough on the ground"...."This is why Pat always says, before getting on a horse, that horse must have this, this, this checked off meaning they're solid on the ground"....."Your mare has some check marks, but not enough".

She said shes just looking out for my safety and I told her that I appreciate her looking out for me.

But I also told her, Im just going by my gut feeling. I told her that Im confident and I will be recording it and I will show it to her after. She said she cant wait to see it. I want nothing more than to prove her wrong that I am capable riding my mare.


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## Hoofpic

When I have her watch my ride, I want her to say to herself "wow...Steven proved me wrong"...."I did not see this coming"....."he did quite good and had a good ride on his mare". I am motivated in making this happen. I love being challenged.


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## tjtalon

Hoofpic, I think you're more than ready for Fly! Just get on her & forget about being watched (I know how that feels, it does make a difference, but try to put it out of your head...just you, and your horse...just BE THERE).

Good thoughts sent to you for Friday!


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## Hoofpic

tjtalon said:


> Hoofpic, I think you're more than ready for Fly! Just get on her & forget about being watched (I know how that feels, it does make a difference, but try to put it out of your head...just you, and your horse...just BE THERE).
> 
> Good thoughts sent to you for Friday!


Thanks. Im confident that Im ready. I know its hard for my outside trainer to judge me as a rider because shes never seen me ride before, which is why I cant be upset with her for saying I shouldnt be riding my mare.

She said shes not upset that Ive decided to ride her, but she still strongly feels that my mare is nowhere even close to having anyone on her back (which IMO she is wrong on this one). If anything, she needs to be ridden right NOW. Not a month later, not even two weeks later. Now. Shes more curious to see how I do and I am going to surprise her. She's doubting me in that Im a capable rider to ride my mare and I will prove her wrong.


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## paintedpastures

To me this parelli trainer may have helped you in beginning but think now is hindering your advancement & confidence.:icon_rolleyes: Too much listening to her groundwork & babying you along...you are not using your own instinct & observation when interacting with your mare. Got to do more listening to your horse, less to her & you will click/communicate better!!! I really think YOU have that in you! to read your horse without someone telling you different & ultimately making your doubt yourself & your mare's ability. Need to trust in yourself & your horse you will succeed:wink:


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## Tazzie

I agree, you are READY to ride your horse. And ride her tomorrow. I have full faith you will do fine! And you know what, sometimes green and green doesn't turn out as bad as a lot of us know it can be. Below is a picture of my husband on my mare. She was just freshly broke, only steering from the reins since we ground drove her all over the farm. My husband only did guided trail rides prior to this. The difference is I was right there with him. And your trainer will be right there with you. You can do this! I KNOW you can!


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> She told me again today that she truly believes I shouldnt be riding my mare on Friday because my mare is very green and green + green = black and blue. She just said that "shes not good enough on the ground".... I want nothing more than to prove her wrong that I am capable riding my mare.


Remember that you HAVE ridden Fly before!!

I don't agree with the Parelli notion that everything has to be "good enough" on the ground before moving on to riding. It's not like you expect to be riding a Grand Prix dressage test tomorrow! And until someone is sitting on your mare, she will continue to be green under saddle - no amount of groundwork changes that.

Take a deep breath, get on, grin like a fool, and enjoy every moment of riding Fly.


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## carshon

I just want to add my words of encouragement as well. I think you will find that the bond with your horse only deepens once you start riding her. I lost my gelding 1 month ago - he was born here at our place and was 13 when he passed away. I got a new horse pretty quickly as I am an avid trail rider. Her ground manners are terrible! And I was second guessing myself. I have ridden her a few times now and she is great under saddle. The more I ride her the better her ground manners are getting.

I think you may find this with Fly as well. Really looking forward to hearing how your ride goes.

We are all rooting for you!


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## bsms

This is an old picture, but it is my youngest learning to ride on a just-broke to ride Arabian mare:








​ 
Notice the fire-breathing green-broke mare trying to hurt her very green rider? Neither do I. Lilly was a total sweetheart. Tell her "Please" and "Thank you", and she would give you everything she had!

There are horses that will try to do things wrong, but I think they may be more common as very experienced and arena sour lesson horses than as green broke horses. They can spook, but any horse on any given day CAN spook. I hope to get a ride in this morning before the winds pick up (predicted 40 mph this afternoon). My horse could spook. 

Mia spooked on me when I first started riding. I got her stopped, tried to dismount before her mind was back, and she exploded in mid-dismount. It was my one fall, and did this:








​ 
That soft tissue damage still aches several times a week, after 7 years. So yes, you can get hurt. My horse could slip on the pavement today, and I'll be hurt.

Risk free means never riding. It also means no groundwork with horses. I've hit the ground far more times while standing near a horse than from their backs. For complete safety, don't go near a horse. 

Parelli has an obsession with ground work. I've seen no more than 50% of groundwork carry over to behavior under saddle. At best. If someone tried to do a Parelli ground work test with Bandit, they would say he was unrideable. Totally unready to ride. Even though he has years of riding on him. And I think too much ground work annoys a horse. Horses like purpose. They like DOING things together. And none of mine see any purpose in doing circles, or being poked or having a lead rope shook in their face.
."..._There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...__ 

...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals_." 

 - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)​.
*Written 148 years ago by a military officer*. It has more to do with building a bond with your horse than anything I've found in Parelli's book. Now, in fairness to Parelli, a lot of people have been helped by his methods. But no one becomes a horseman by using a cookie-cutter approach to horses. When you trust your instinct, you will sometimes be wrong and may get hurt - but there is no other path to learning how to work with horses. IMHO. But no one would ever pay me for advice...


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## cbar

Good luck tomorrow Hoofpic! Since this is the journal section, you really should put some photos of your mare on here!!


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## Hoofpic

paintedpastures said:


> To me this parelli trainer may have helped you in beginning but think now is hindering your advancement & confidence.:icon_rolleyes: Too much listening to her groundwork & babying you along...you are not using your own instinct & observation when interacting with your mare. Got to do more listening to your horse, less to her & you will click/communicate better!!! I really think YOU have that in you! to read your horse without someone telling you different & ultimately making your doubt yourself & your mare's ability. Need to trust in yourself & your horse you will succeed:wink:


Well I dont think shes holding me back, shes helping me out immensely but I just think shes a bit limited in what she thinks I can do with my mare and that is because she hasnt seen me ride before. But once I show her the video this weekend, hopefully it will change her opinion.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I agree, you are READY to ride your horse. And ride her tomorrow. I have full faith you will do fine! And you know what, sometimes green and green doesn't turn out as bad as a lot of us know it can be. Below is a picture of my husband on my mare. She was just freshly broke, only steering from the reins since we ground drove her all over the farm. My husband only did guided trail rides prior to this. The difference is I was right there with him. And your trainer will be right there with you. You can do this! I KNOW you can!


Thanks Tazzie. Sounds like your hubby did great. No looking down at the ears!. Is that a bike helmet he is wearing? Looks very sporty for a riding helmet



phantomhorse13 said:


> Remember that you HAVE ridden Fly before!!
> 
> I don't agree with the Parelli notion that everything has to be "good enough" on the ground before moving on to riding. It's not like you expect to be riding a Grand Prix dressage test tomorrow! And until someone is sitting on your mare, she will continue to be green under saddle - no amount of groundwork changes that.
> 
> Take a deep breath, get on, grin like a fool, and enjoy every moment of riding Fly.


Though really brief (and at bareback), yes I have rode my mare before I bought her

I agree with you that if I want my mare to become less green, she needs to be ridden.

When I was talking with my riding coach last weekend, she said "Yes she is green, but shes not as green as you think she is"....simply cause shes had the training last fall from her and she felt shes made huge progress during that time, plus me as a rider.


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## Zexious

Looking forward to following your journey c:

You seem to defend your Parelli trainer a lot. Can I ask what you're hoping to gain and learn from continuing lessons with her? --This is a genuine question, not trying to be snarky D: <3<3


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> I just want to add my words of encouragement as well. I think you will find that the bond with your horse only deepens once you start riding her. I lost my gelding 1 month ago - he was born here at our place and was 13 when he passed away. I got a new horse pretty quickly as I am an avid trail rider. Her ground manners are terrible! And I was second guessing myself. I have ridden her a few times now and she is great under saddle. The more I ride her the better her ground manners are getting.
> 
> I think you may find this with Fly as well. Really looking forward to hearing how your ride goes.
> 
> We are all rooting for you!


Thanks. i have no doubt about this, that our bond will deepen even more once I start riding her! Ah Im so excited! You dont know how much Im looking forward to tomorrow. Ive been patiently waiting many months for this day.


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> This is an old picture, but it is my youngest learning to ride on a just-broke to ride Arabian mare:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Notice the fire-breathing green-broke mare trying to hurt her very green rider? Neither do I. Lilly was a total sweetheart. Tell her "Please" and "Thank you", and she would give you everything she had!
> 
> There are horses that will try to do things wrong, but I think they may be more common as very experienced and arena sour lesson horses than as green broke horses. They can spook, but any horse on any given day CAN spook. I hope to get a ride in this morning before the winds pick up (predicted 40 mph this afternoon). My horse could spook.
> 
> Mia spooked on me when I first started riding. I got her stopped, tried to dismount before her mind was back, and she exploded in mid-dismount. It was my one fall, and did this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> That soft tissue damage still aches several times a week, after 7 years. So yes, you can get hurt. My horse could slip on the pavement today, and I'll be hurt.
> 
> Risk free means never riding. It also means no groundwork with horses. I've hit the ground far more times while standing near a horse than from their backs. For complete safety, don't go near a horse. Thursday, May 5, 2016


Ouch that looks very painful.:sad: I agree that there is risk with everything. If you dont want any risk, dont be around horses at all. Im willing to take the risk, I never once was doubting whether or not I should. Obviously my outside trainer doesnt think I should take the risk.



> Parelli has an obsession with ground work. I've seen no more than 50% of groundwork carry over to behavior under saddle. At best. If someone tried to do a Parelli ground work test with Bandit, they would say he was unrideable. Totally unready to ride. Even though he has years of riding on him. And I think too much ground work annoys a horse. Horses like purpose. They like DOING things together. And none of mine see any purpose in doing circles, or being poked or having a lead rope shook in their face.
> ."..._There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...__
> 
> ...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals_."
> 
> - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)​.
> *Written 148 years ago by a military officer*. It has more to do with building a bond with your horse than anything I've found in Parelli's book. Now, in fairness to Parelli, a lot of people have been helped by his methods. But no one becomes a horseman by using a cookie-cutter approach to horses. When you trust your instinct, you will sometimes be wrong and may get hurt - but there is no other path to learning how to work with horses. IMHO. But no one would ever pay me for advice...


I agree with this. I do think that groundwork can only achieve so much and that horses are more annoyed by it and getting poked by the carrot stick more than anything.


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## Hoofpic

I jist picked up my saddle pad. Finally the store got a 3/4" contour diamond pad at 28" length.

Fly cant take anything longer than a 28" not even a 30".

And i wanted 3/4" over 1".

But the dollar went up and the prices on these diamonds are crazy now. If i went with the 1" pad version, it would be $210cdn. But the 3/4" is $100 more. So i paid $310cdn for this pad. Wow. Not happy about the price but because i wanted diamond so bad and needes these measurements, i have no choice


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## Hoofpic

cbar said:


> Good luck tomorrow Hoofpic! Since this is the journal section, you really should put some photos of your mare on here!!


Here you go.

I need to start taking pictures again, its been awhile.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> Looking forward to following your journey c:
> 
> You seem to defend your Parelli trainer a lot. Can I ask what you're hoping to gain and learn from continuing lessons with her? --This is a genuine question, not trying to be snarky D: <3<3


Im hoping to learn to become the best leader that Im capable being. And she gives me a lot of confidence. I can tell that she has very high standards from when she just teaches me but Ive already seen the benefits and started to feel the rewards soon after re-connecting with her. I cant even explain it in words just how much shes been to me so far.


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## Rainaisabelle

They're nice photos !


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> They're nice photos !


Thank you


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## tinyliny

I like this one:


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> I like this one:


Thanks, I love that one too.

I'm eventually going to get one of her photos either painted onto canvas or black and white hand drawn sketched and framed.


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks Tazzie. Sounds like your hubby did great. No looking down at the ears!. Is that a bike helmet he is wearing? Looks very sporty for a riding helmet


Lol, cut him some slack. That was his first ride on her I think :wink:

And no, it's a riding helmet. I believe this is the one he got. I made him try on a lot of them to find which fit the best. It was his valentines day present :lol:

Ovation® Protégé Helmet** | Dover Saddlery


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Lol, cut him some slack. That was his first ride on her I think :wink:
> 
> And no, it's a riding helmet. I believe this is the one he got. I made him try on a lot of them to find which fit the best. It was his valentines day present :lol:
> 
> Ovation® Protégé Helmet** | Dover Saddlery


He did great  I do like his helmet a lot. Ovations are nice helments, very pricey up here in Canada though.


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## Tazzie

He's only gotten better. I let him trail ride that horse where ever he wants to go. I'm always right by him.

And he seems to like it! Shame they are pricey up there :sad: it's one of the more affordable ones here. And he doesn't ride a lot, so he didn't need a crazy expensive one. I have a Tipperary, and I love it! My husband used to whine I made him ride in a helmet, since a lot of our friends don't. I said I love him, and he doesn't need a bigger injury from falling. He doesn't whine anymore since I've also never ridden without a helmet.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Tazzie said:


> My husband used to whine I made him ride in a helmet, since a lot of our friends don't. I said I love him, and he doesn't need a bigger injury from falling. He doesn't whine anymore since I've also never ridden without a helmet.


I was very surprised that my husband, who is a former Marine and not always the most safety-conscious :icon_rolleyes: , insisted that when he starts riding and taking lessons, he wants a helmet. I'm pretty sure this is the look I had on my face: :shock: . :lol: However, he's smart about it. He has a TBI and three titanium plates in his face, so he knows that a fall could, in reality, kill him.


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## karliejaye

Fly is absolutely adorable! What a sweet face she has.


Today is lesson day, yeah? Have a blast!


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## Tazzie

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I was very surprised that my husband, who is a former Marine and not always the most safety-conscious :icon_rolleyes: , insisted that when he starts riding and taking lessons, he wants a helmet. I'm pretty sure this is the look I had on my face: :shock: . :lol: However, he's smart about it. He has a TBI and three titanium plates in his face, so he knows that a fall could, in reality, kill him.


He thought it was a dumb valentines day present :lol: I asked him if he wanted to ride my horse. "Yes." "Well, this is how much I love you, now you're getting a helmet." I am proud that he'll grab it if it's home and he wants to ride. Even wears it on the steady eddy trail horse. He kind of knows it's not worth arguing with me :lol:


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## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Fly is absolutely adorable! What a sweet face she has.
> 
> 
> Today is lesson day, yeah? Have a blast!


Yes today is lesson day, in 2.5 hours to be exact. Heading to the barn shortly here. (Great thing about working from home I guess!).

I'm so excited. :

Can't wait to see the footage after.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I'm so excited.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'm So Excited Carlton Dance - YouTube


Drafty, Im so excited I got to the barn too early lol. But im setting up my camera and etc.

Here we go!!!!!!

Sent from my C6806 using Tapatalk


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## DraftyAiresMum

Glad for you, HP. 

Sorry to say that I reneged on our bargain, but through no fault of my own. My car broke down on Monday and I haven't been able to get it fixed. Don't even know how I'm going to get to work tomorrow and I'm more than a little bit stressed about it.

Have fun, though! Can't wait to see the pics/video!


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## Hoofpic

Well, the BO sat in as well and he and my coach both said i did good for a first ride lol. I wasnt too impressed myself. Perhaps i set the bar too high for me for the first time. Obviously it will take time to transition over as well as a new girth.

Cant wait to watch rhe replay.

Riding her again this sunday. I want quick back to back lessons. The best thing is that my coach and BO had confidence in me because they love my attitude and will to learn.


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## Peachy

people laugh when I tell them my horses names are Gina and Evie which I absolutely love as they act like a Gina and Evie! fly is an awesome it's Different I love it!


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## Peachy

She looks like a Gina lol


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## Hoofpic

Also when i said i wasnt impressed (not from the BO watching as i had no issues with him watching. He gave me a lot of good advice.

I wasnt impressed by me as a rider today. But perhaps i set the bar too high for myself.

Not sure if i want my outside trainer to see it lol.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Riding a green horse will do that to you. Lessons horses, even the ones who test you, are easy. They know what they're supposed to do, it's just a matter of pushing the right button to get them to do it. Riding a green horse is a completely different beast. They often don't know or aren't sure what's being asked of them. Because of this, unless you're used to riding green horses, you're going to look and feel like you have zero clue what you're doing.

Trust me. Voice of experience speaking here.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Riding a green horse will do that to you. Lessons horses, even the ones who test you, are easy. They know what they're supposed to do, it's just a matter of pushing the right button to get them to do it. Riding a green horse is a completely different beast. They often don't know or aren't sure what's being asked of them. Because of this, unless you're used to riding green horses, you're going to look and feel like you have zero clue what you're doing.
> 
> Trust me. Voice of experience speaking here.


Thats what the BO and coach said too. I didnt do terrible but definitely was a bit rocky. But i know i can make huge improvements for sunday.


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## Hoofpic

When the trainer and BO said i did good for a first ride, i had to ask them to make sure they were being completely honest about it. I felt bad, not that i didnt believe them but having the BOs eyes on me as well definitely made me a bit more weary.

I was too tense from my shoulders and up, which was unheard of me. Trainer said it was cause i was nervous regardless of me denying it.

Now off to pickup some joined leather reins, bigger stirrups.


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## DraftyAiresMum

It's difficult NOT to tense up/be nervous on a green horse when you're not used to riding greenies. I've ridden naughty horses quite frequently. Completely different ball game than riding my greenie. Even if they don't act up, there's that always that part of the back of your mind that wonders if they can and what they'll do if they do.


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## tjtalon

One "on" at a time, Hoofpic! Kudos!


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## tjtalon

Hoofpic;9001361
I was too tense from my shoulders and up said:


> I do that too. next time, breathe down, into your middle. It'll sit you in your seat...brings your energy down into your lower body, if that makes more sense to you.
> 
> :cowboy:


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## greentree

Was she just not as fun as you thought? Or greener than you thought? Not as responsive?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Was she just not as fun as you thought? Or greener than you thought? Not as responsive?


She wasnt bad, she was actually quite good but definitely its going to take a lot of adjusting for me as a rider. 

Ive never ridden a green horse before so was one of the most valuable experiences ive gone through to date.

BO and trainer both agreed that the ride was well worth it and theyre glad i finally got on her and now i know what she js like in the saddle and theyre confident with my attitude and will to learn, i can be a strong leader for her in the saddle.


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## DraftyAiresMum

This is kind of the reason there's the stigma of green riders with green horses. Doesn't matter how many lessons you've had or how good of a rider you think you are, a green horse will show you exactly how much you DON'T know.


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## Hoofpic

Im almost home. To to upload the video. It might be all night to upload. 20-25min ride.

I will be recording each lesson.


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## tinaev

Glad to hear you had a good ride!


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## greentree

Hoofpic, you may be better off letting things come as they will, rather than trying to record an analyze everything. It will keep you WAY more relaxed, which I would BET your mare needs.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, you may be better off letting things come as they will, rather than trying to record an analyze everything. It will keep you WAY more relaxed, which I would BET your mare needs.


I am, but also I learn a lot by rewtching my ride so that I can see what I did from a 3rd person perspective. 

For instance, the stirrups on my saddle were too small for my big boots. It made it awkward for my feet to be in them. Can a different saddle totally throw you off as a rider? As in needing to get used to it.
Obviously this one has a much different feel than the lesson one ive been using on the lesson mare.

So I picked up stirrups just now that are a full 1" wider and also longer and y ou wouldnt believe the difference it makes wow. Im very much looking forward to putting these on the saddle tomorrow and see how much better I feel on the next ride on Sunday.

Also got myself a nice set of joined reins.


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## Hoofpic

Ok im watching the aftermath and I actually dont think I did all that bad. Im perhaps too hard on myself. Again it was my first ride and there was some good things I did in it.


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## Golden Horse

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, you may be better off letting things come as they will, rather than trying to record an analyze everything. It will keep you WAY more relaxed, which I would BET your mare needs.


I agree.

Videoing a ride every now and again is a fantastic thing to do, it is a really valuable tool to help you understand what the trainer is saying to you, because how I look is never how I feel 

I think that too much though will be a bad thing, you have to 'feel' rather than study for some of it, there is a balance to be drawn. If you read a lot of threads on here you will find that people had break throughs when they stopped trying so hard, less is so often more in the saddle.

I also am a little worried about you wanting to be a strong leader when riding, I kind of tried to do that and it made me a bossy micro manager, you have to be a patient leader, a caring one, a sympathetic one, and yes if needed strong, but just be careful.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I agree.
> 
> Videoing a ride every now and again is a fantastic thing to do, it is a really valuable tool to help you understand what the trainer is saying to you, because how I look is never how I feel
> 
> I think that too much though will be a bad thing, you have to 'feel' rather than study for some of it, there is a balance to be drawn. If you read a lot of threads on here you will find that people had break throughs when they stopped trying so hard, less is so often more in the saddle.
> 
> I also am a little worried about you wanting to be a strong leader when riding, I kind of tried to do that and it made me a bossy micro manager, you have to be a patient leader, a caring one, a sympathetic one, and yes if needed strong, but just be careful.


I dont record to analyze everything but pinpoint what I need to correct for the next time. For me when I see it after, it sinks in my head more. Sure, it sinks in my head as Im riding and taking direction but I know for me, I really benefit by seeing things more than once. This is why I found clinics so beneficial.


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## greentree

That is the thing with horses, though....especially mares.....a lot of things are just not going to be the SAME from ride to ride...that is a machine, not a horse. So what you need to do tomorrow is not the same thing you need to do Next week!!


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## Tazzie

Yay! I'm glad it went well!

I won't get into the recording versus not recording. I like recordings. Sometimes I can't remember valuable tips or exercises later on, and I do go back and rewatch stuff. That said, I don't record all the time.

I will say, we are always our worst critics. We always feel we do terribly, and get hard on ourselves that we should have done better. I'm really only a dressage rider, but this could pertain to you as well. Riding is a dance. You step forward, and you step backward. You always hope for forward motion, but in reality it isn't always forward. Sometimes the steps back are what launch you into that break through. Just go easy on yourself. You're a green rider with a green mare. It's going to be a lot harder than if you had a totally broke horse. But she seems quiet enough to handle you.

I do agree with GH. Yes, be a leader, but you need to be calm and patient. Especially with greenies. They just don't get things like a well broke horse. They are essentially an empty keyboard: there are no buttons installed. It'll be your job as the rider to install those buttons.


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## Tazzie

greentree said:


> That is the thing with horses, though....especially mares.....a lot of things are just not going to be the SAME from ride to ride...that is a machine, not a horse. So what you need to do tomorrow is not the same thing you need to do Next week!!


This too. Mares are SO frustrating. The horse you put away one night won't be the same you pull out the next. They are stubborn, opinionated, and can be hormonal. Some days they need firmer, others you need to realize some things won't be worth the battle and shoot for a smaller goal. But when you get her totally on your side under saddle, you'll have a partner that will try her heart out for you.


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## DraftyAiresMum

What's that saying?

"You ask a stallion, you tell a gelding, but you negotiate with a mare."


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## Rainaisabelle

Another saying 

"Smooth seas never made a skilled sailor "


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> That is the thing with horses, though....especially mares.....a lot of things are just not going to be the SAME from ride to ride...that is a machine, not a horse. So what you need to do tomorrow is not the same thing you need to do Next week!!


I know but what im saying is, I can pin point what basic things i need to do. Stuff like being more relaxed, keeping the heels down etc.

I went through this same thing when i first started riding the lesson mare and i overcame it.

Did i set the bar too high today by telling myself that i could keep my hands as still as when on the lesson mare, or my posture would be just as good on my mare as the lesson mare? Yes. But now i know and i feel more ahead after riding my mare today because i got a feel for her in the saddle.

Like i said this is a huge weight off my shoulders.


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## Hoofpic

Ok I just watched the full lesson and still stand by my assessment that the shorter reins affected me in causing me to have my hands and arms more forward than I usually do. We used my coaches joined reins and I havent used these ones before and they seemed a lot shorter than the joined reins I usually use on the lesson mare. Anyways, I did pick up a set of thinner ones myself and curious to see how i find them on Sundays lesson. 

NOTE: In this video, I never usually have my hands this forward. I keep my elbows tucked to my sides and my hands just fall naturally so my elbows can still bend. NOt trying to make excuses but I wasnt a big fan of these reins as they felt shorter than what im used to (which im sure they arent and its just a mental thing). Reason why I believe this is because i usually have excess rein length sitting between my hands at all times on the lesson mare, but on these reins I had none so i had to have my hands more forward than usual.

The fact the stirrups were actually too small for my big feet most definitely had a factor in me not being able to keep my heals down. Im glad I managed to pick up a much larger set today (I figure if its going to affect my riding then i will address a problem right away). I have no doubt that the widerstirrups will make me more comfy in the saddle. 

In the video, I made a couple remarks to my trainer about the stirrups and she said its not so much the saddle but my body. 

How far back on your feet should the base of the stirrups sit? I know you need to keep your heals down, but I find its pretty hard if your stirrup is too small and the base of the strirrup is right at your toe nails. Ive always found that even the ones on the lesson saddle that I rode the lesson mare in could have been wider for my big feet. 

My new ones, Im able to put a lot further back along my foot and I definitely will be able to slip my feet in and out of them a whole lot easier thats forsure. I think stirrup fit is a huge factor in how you ride IMO. These new ones are a full 1" wider than the ones that came with my saddle, so its a signifcant upgrade. Not just that but the base are longer in length front to back so it should help.


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## Rainaisabelle

Your legs should be underneath you. They should line up with you hips/elbows/shoulders. I have my foot about the 1/4 of the way in.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Your legs should be underneath you. They should line up with you hips/elbows/shoulders. I have my foot about the 1/4 of the way in.


Thanks. I got a bit luck (and worried at the same time lol) cause my stirrups are on the last whole and it was just long enough for me. 

So your foot is 1/4 of the way in. Thats not much at all, thats like just past your toes.


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## bsms

What type of riding do you do? I've never seen the videos.


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## Rainaisabelle

Well I have small feet so my 1/4 of the way would be just before halfway. But it shouldn't matter your feet shouldn't be moving.


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> What type of riding do you do? I've never seen the videos.


I do western.

VIdeo is taking long, 20mins or so long so it wont be up til the morning as im heading to bed soon. So I will let it continue to upload throughout the night.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Well I have small feet so my 1/4 of the way would be just before halfway. But it shouldn't matter your feet shouldn't be moving.


Oh just before halfway sounds more comfortable than just behind the toes lol. Im almost certain that this is one reason why i had difficulty all this time keeping my heels down on the lesson mare, cause i could have benefited from bigger stirrups.

Today what was happening was, because the stirrups that came with my saddle were "barely" wide enough for my feet, I couldnt keep my heels down and was putting too much pressure on my toes in the stirrups and this and my hands being too forward was causing me to me put too much of my weight forward and Fly could feel it.

But now I have my own set of joined reins as well as much wider stirrups so im confident ill be a lot more comfortable. These stirrups i can put much more of my foot inside.

I will take a pic for you guys tomorrow so you guys can see the size difference.


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## Rainaisabelle

The best way to figure out with your legs is to take one leg off at a time while sitting you should feel whether they're to far forward or back


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## bsms

If western, then I'll be a heretic and say a lot of the rules of English riding do not apply. The western saddle has a very different tree, with a different way of distributing weight. The fenders are more stable, the stirrups very different, and the goals often differ.

How far should your feet be in the stirrups? You decide.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/question-stirrup-position-ball-foot-mid-74556/

Larry Trocha:










Some expert ropers:










My stirrup tread is 3 inches wide. My youngest uses stirrups that are 4 inches. You can buy as much as 5 inches, which would cover almost the entire front of the foot:










There is also no requirement to have your toes pointing forward. I find it easier to keep my stirrups on with my toes out some, which also matches the US Cavalry recommendation of 20-45 degrees toes out.

I like rubber soled cowboy boots on my leather stirrups.

But my youngest rides with her toe in the stirrup, while I go much deeper. I like heels down. She does not. Your choice:










She also likes her heel under her hip. I like the back of my heel just in front of my belt buckle. Saddle shape also affects it - a western saddle has a "ground" and isn't flat like an English one:










That center part rising up is the "ground" of a western saddle, and it can be shaped to put your thigh in a certain spot. Or not. Depends on the saddle:










Or:










My own is in between:










FWIW, Pat Parelli riding:










In the end, you will need to try a few different things and see what works for you. If you are paying your instructor, then listen and do it that way...and be open to changing later on.


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## greentree

Bsms is correct, as long as you are comfortable, it does not matter where your foot is. And this is not an equitation show, so I do not think you should be worried about whether your arms are forward or whatever. Do all that stuff on the lesson horse, but just relax and figure out how to get Fly to do what YOU ask.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> The best way to figure out with your legs is to take one leg off at a time while sitting you should feel whether they're to far forward or back


Hmm I kinda get it.


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> If western, then I'll be a heretic and say a lot of the rules of English riding do not apply. The western saddle has a very different tree, with a different way of distributing weight. The fenders are more stable, the stirrups very different, and the goals often differ.
> 
> How far should your feet be in the stirrups? You decide.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/question-stirrup-position-ball-foot-mid-74556/
> 
> Larry Trocha:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some expert ropers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My stirrup tread is 3 inches wide. My youngest uses stirrups that are 4 inches. You can buy as much as 5 inches, which would cover almost the entire front of the foot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is also no requirement to have your toes pointing forward. I find it easier to keep my stirrups on with my toes out some, which also matches the US Cavalry recommendation of 20-45 degrees toes out.
> 
> I like rubber soled cowboy boots on my leather stirrups.
> 
> But my youngest rides with her toe in the stirrup, while I go much deeper. I like heels down. She does not. Your choice:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She also likes her heel under her hip. I like the back of my heel just in front of my belt buckle. Saddle shape also affects it - a western saddle has a "ground" and isn't flat like an English one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That center part rising up is the "ground" of a western saddle, and it can be shaped to put your thigh in a certain spot. Or not. Depends on the saddle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My own is in between:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, Pat Parelli riding:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the end, you will need to try a few different things and see what works for you. If you are paying your instructor, then listen and do it that way...and be open to changing later on.


Thanks for the post bsms. 

Sorry if my reply is coming across as short, I gotta head out the door shortly this morning as Im helping a friend move for a couple hours this morning before heading out to the barn later today.

I think my stirrups (the new ones) are 4" across in width. Theyre nice and big.

From my experience, I find that you can only keep those heels down so much if your stirrups are where your toes are. Only makes sense, cause naturally your pressure point will be where it lands on the stirrups.

So with me being able to now put much more of my foot in the new stirrups, Im wondering if this will allow me to keep my heels down more. We will see tomorrow.

This is critical because (as I noticed yesterday on my mare), going from a 15hh horse to a 14hh horse felt significantly different. It was a lot easier for me to accidentally shift or put too much of my weight leaning forward. And this is not what i want.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Bsms is correct, as long as you are comfortable, it does not matter where your foot is. And this is not an equitation show, so I do not think you should be worried about whether your arms are forward or whatever. Do all that stuff on the lesson horse, but just relax and figure out how to get Fly to do what YOU ask.


Well I definitely had my hands more forward yesterday and unintentionally of course. You will see what I mean. This caused my body to be leaning forward too much, where keeping my back straight is arguably my best quality in the saddle and was from the get go. 

What I learned from yesterday is that on a smaller horse who isnt nearly as long, the room that you have for your body to move forward and back means that much more because of the horse having a shorter back, they can feel it more and quicker and you have to be that much more still and better positioned as opposed to a bigger and longer horse. You have a bit of a buffer on a larger horse, I dont have that on Fly. This is something that I quickly learned once I got on my mares back and I will need to adjust to.

So since my balance and back positioning is my best quality in the saddle, its time I really put it to the test because this will be a challenge for me in terms of me becoming accustomed to riding a much smaller horse than the lesson mare. Im still confident I can do it, its just making adjustments thats all.

But like I said, it was a first ride. I cant put too much pressure on myself. I had very high expectations for me because I set the bar too high. But thats why I wanted to get back at it asap again and will be having my 2nd ride on Fly on Sunday! It quickly reinforces things for the both of us and doesnt let stuff sit on my mind.

You can bet I know exactly what I need to do and corect from the first ride.

And after some thinking last night, this is why Im not going to show my outside trainer the lesson from yesterday, but instead I will show her the footage that I will have from tomorrows lesson! Cause yesterdays lesson was NOT a good example of a trainer to first assess me as a rider. Tomorrow I will be night and day better because I know I can do it.


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## greentree

Hoofpic, are your new stirrups 4" DEEP, (heel to toe), or 4" wide(side of foot to side of foot)??? It is easier to put heels down on a shallower stirrup than a deeper one.


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## Hoofpic




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## greentree

Yes, you were correct, the old stirrups were too small.....i like the new ones.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I tend to put my stirrup so that the just behind the full ball of my foot is resting on it. This is the natural pivot point for my ankle and foot, if I'm standing on a narrow surface (beam or curb...I've found it useful to stand this way to find my natural pivot point and what's more comfortable for me). This makes it easier for me to keep my heels down and cue how I need to without losing my stirrups. This is regardless of whether I'm riding in my western saddle, which has larger stirrups, my old barrel saddle, which has smaller/narrower stirrups, or my old Aussie, which had English irons on it.

BSMS has a point with the foot being in the "home" position, however, he's citing mostly men doing fast, hard disciplines where you don't have time to think about where your foot is and need to be able to keep yourself in the saddle when your horse hits the end of that rope or makes a sudden maneuver tracking the cow. For that reason, "home" works best for cowboys and ropers. As you are neither, @Hoofpic, I think finding the most comfortable position for your foot in the stirrup is a better idea than listening to what any of us have to say.

It is entirely possible for the reins to be physically too short. I have a pair of 10' leather English (joined) reins that I adore. They have a great feel and they're long enough for my 17hh horse. I bought a pair of barrel reins to try because they were in our colors and they were pretty. I didn't realize they were 8' until I got on my horse and had no reins to work with. 

Here's an example of where I position my feet and how long my reins are. A couple of things: Not my saddle, I borrowed it from the BO, so I was NOT comfortable in it; yes, I know I'm looking down, it was my first ride on him and his fifth ride ever :shock: ; and please ignore the big white granny panties, it was something of a joke, but also a bid to try to get me to relax (it worked beautifully, BTW). Also, he's only about 15.2hh and 2.5-years-old in this pic. He's grown A LOT since then (he turned 7-years-old yesterday and is now just barely shy of 17hh).


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, are your new stirrups 4" DEEP, (heel to toe), or 4" wide(side of foot to side of foot)??? It is easier to put heels down on a shallower stirrup than a deeper one.


I didnt measure but i think theyre 4" width, and maybe 2.5-3" forward and back.

I did see and try on one of the stirrups with narrow foot pieces and thought it would make it harder for me to put my heels down so i didnt get them. Plus they were $140cdn yikes. These stirrups aint cheal thats forsure. Even mine were $100.



Sent from my C6806 using Tapatalk


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I did see and try on one of the stirrups with narrow foot pieces and thought it would make it harder for me to put my heels down so i didnt get them. Plus they were $140cdn yikes. These stirrups aint cheal thats forsure. Even mine were $100.


By narrower, do you mean like this?

Western Aluminum Padded Bell Stirrups - Horse.com

I've actually found those to be _easier_ to get my heels down in, as they aren't taking up a lot of my foot. One thing to remember is that you don't want weight in your stirrups. You want enough weight in them so that you don't lose them, yes, but you don't want to be pushing your heels down off the stirrup and balancing on the stirrup. Balance comes from your seat and core. Heels down is not so much "heels down" as it is "toes up" and a lengthening of the calf muscle. 

My Hereford saddle has stirrups like you just bought. They're called roper stirrups, as they are wider and more square to accommodate a large man's boot.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> What I learned from yesterday is that on a smaller horse who isnt nearly as long, the room that you have for your body to move forward and back means that much more because of the horse having a shorter back, they can feel it more and quicker and you have to be that much more still and better positioned as opposed to a bigger and longer horse. You have a bit of a buffer on a larger horse, I dont have that on Fly. This is something that I quickly learned once I got on my mares back and I will need to adjust to.


Remember as well when you are thinking about differences Fly is not as well trained as the school horse you have been riding, she is more likely to react to movement than a school horse. This is the joy of riding, different sizes, shapes, levels of training, type of horse all leads to a different 'feel' and often having to make small changes to the way we ride to get the best of each horse.


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## bsms

DraftyAiresMum said:


> ...BSMS has a point with the foot being in the "home" position, however, he's citing mostly men doing fast, hard disciplines where you don't have time to think about where your foot is and need to be able to keep yourself in the saddle when your horse hits the end of that rope or makes a sudden maneuver tracking the cow. For that reason, "home" works best for cowboys and ropers. As you are neither, @*Hoofpic* , *I think finding the most comfortable position for your foot in the stirrup is a better idea than listening to what any of us have to say*...


Exactly. Try some options, talk with your instructor, think about it...outside of shows, it is a personal choice. Different saddles, different builds, different goals, different horses...keep open to ideas, try things, and use what works for you, your horse and your goals.

Greentree said it beautifully: "*Do all that stuff on the lesson horse, but just relax and figure out how to get Fly to do what YOU ask.*" That simple statement has a lot of riding wisdom!


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## sarahfromsc

Hoof pic, enjoy the journey and don't get so anal over stuff. It will come together. Rome was not built in a day.

Much experience on this forum, however, we have never met you, your horse, your trainers , your BO. Take what we say, and stash it away or use it to ask your trainer and BO questions, but at this juncture in your riding, listen to those whose see you ride.

I still work hard on my riding. Some days that dang right heel wants to pop up......even after 40 or so years. Usually because of stiffness, fatigue, or pain in my knee, hip, back, or even shoulder. After all, those heels are connected to something, and that something is connected to something else. Get my drift?

Relax, enjoy the journey of learning to ride.


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## sarahfromsc

PS. Somedays you will ride like this:


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## sarahfromsc

Other days you will feel like this:


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## sarahfromsc

Well, that sucks. Maybe the pics will show up one day.....lolol.....then maybe not.


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## greentree

Celebrate!! The like button worked!


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## Hoofpic

Im exhausted.

Heres my lesson from yesterday. Please dont share it outside HF.thx

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=4CcajVNp-w4


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## phantomhorse13

I thought might be easier for people to see if its embedded here for them:









I have not been able to watch all of it yet as my internet is horrible in the evenings, but from what I have seen your reins did look too short. But more importantly you look GREAT on Fly!!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Haven't watched all of it, but just in the first two minutes, a few things jumped out at me.

First, yes, your reins are VERY short.

Second, you are VERY stiff. You have no fluidity in your hips and your arms are very straight with no elasticity. You need to follow the horse's motion with your hips. Your back doesn't have to look like it has a ramrod shoved up it. Watch any of the top riders of any discipline and they follow the motion of the horse. Your shoulders and elbows should be following the horse's motion if you're going to ride two-handed. That way you don't pop your horse in the mouth by accident.

Fly is very cute and seems really willing. She also seems very...not nervous, but...unsure? How many rides does she have on her?


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## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> I thought might be easier for people to see if its embedded here for them
> 
> I have not been able to watch all of it yet as my internet is horrible in the evenings, but from what I have seen your reins did look too short. But more importantly you look GREAT on Fly!!


Thanks.

Yes my reins were too short. Not trying to make excuses (this is the first time ever that i used those reins, theyre my trainers) and i wasnt overly crazy about them. They just felt way too short, even though im sure single reins are all the same length.

Dont ask me why i held the reins so forward, i think its because i wanted some slack between my hands (like i get with the single leather reins on the lesson mare). I swear they felt noticably shorter in length than my reins.

Im curious to see how i do with my new reins tomorrow. 

Of course the small stirrups didnt help. Im excited to put my new and larger stirrups to work tomorrow.

I was adjusting to a new horse, new saddle, new stirrups, new reins all at once.


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## Rainaisabelle

I agree with above, you need to follow the movement! And let your reins out like 2 - 3inches so that they're just Infront of the saddle... But in saying that your instructor will correct you  

With following movement I found it the best to close your eyes and just sit and feel your seat bones going 1,2,1,2 you'll feel it and you should follow it.


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## Rainaisabelle

I know you're not a dressage rider but go to my thread and watch one of the beginning videos to one of the most recent and see the difference


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> They just felt way too short, even though im sure single reins are all the same length.


Single reins are _not_ all the same length.

If you go into my tack room, you will find all single reins.. and they vary in length from 7 feet to 10 feet long!! While I could get away with the 10' reins on my barely-14.2 gelding with a short neck, its annoying to use them because the extra is long enough to catch around the toe of my shoe! And there is no way in heck I could ride my 15.2 long-necked mare in the 7' reins.. I would have to do two point and have my hands halfway up her neck.


I suspect you will be a lot more comfortable in your new reins. And certainly in your new stirrups.


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## bsms

I've only seen the first 7 minutes. With my Internet speed...I'm downloading the file so I can watch it without it freezing on me.

I love Fly! I think you're doing fine. I'm a 58 year old guy who started jogging in 1972. I find myself needing 15-30 minutes to get my hips and legs relaxed and stretched enough to melt around my horse. FWIW, an exercise I like is to ride two-point, or "standing in the stirrups". At a relaxed walk, stand in the stirrups. Use the horn if needed to keep your balance - never reins. And just let the horse's motion sink your weight past your knees and into your heels. Another one that helps, if the horse doesn't object, is to lean forward in the saddle, then lean back, while the horse just stands still. You could also let your instructor lead your horse while you ride without stirrups. 2-3 minutes of that will loosen your body up and make riding easier.

Just suggestions. Download finished...you were looking better after the 20 minute mark. Enjoy! I like your horse!

PS - I used 10' single reins for Mia. 9' single reins with Bandit. And we use 8' single reins with Cowboy.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Haven't watched all of it, but just in the first two minutes, a few things jumped out at me.
> 
> First, yes, your reins are VERY short.


Yip see my comment above.



> Second, you are VERY stiff. You have no fluidity in your hips and your arms are very straight with no elasticity. You need to follow the horse's motion with your hips. Your back doesn't have to look like it has a ramrod shoved up it. Watch any of the top riders of any discipline and they follow the motion of the horse. Your shoulders and elbows should be following the horse's motion if you're going to ride two-handed. That way you don't pop your horse in the mouth by accident.


No doubt in my mind i was too stiff. Now, im not trying to make excuses for myself but i will say that i dont ride the lesson mare anything like this. Im not stiff on her at all. You will see it in tomorrows lesson on Fly. Ill be a different person.

No doubt i can achieve that same feel on my mare.



> Fly is very cute and seems really willing. She also seems very...not nervous, but...unsure? How many rides does she have on her?


Thanks
Like i sais, she was very good yesterday and she was a bit unsure at times cause i was too stiff and too forward. Im never forward like this on a horse.

I had my lesson with my outside trainer today and she asked how my ride went. I told her and we chatted a bit about it. We both agreed that the biggest and most immediate adjustment that im having to make is going from a 15hh horse to a 14.2hh horse. On the lesson mare, i had a bit of a buffer for her to not read my signals if i accidentally lean forward on her. Because Fly has a shorter back, i dont have that margin for error which is a-ok by me because like I said this will put my balance and bacj posture to the test.

My outside trainer also mentioned how lesson mares know what being asked from them and they learn every riders style and tendencies over time. Fly doesnt have this so thats why i need to be as direct as i can be with her and reward her right away when she does what i ask. We did this yesterday. For me, im a big believer that giving a young horse scratches on their neck or withers while in the saddle is critical in their learning.

I dont know how many total rides the previous owner had on her but from digging for info from her, its in the 40-50 range from the previous owner and about 18 from my riding coach now from last Fall.

I will be honest, in some ways yesterday kinda felt like when i first got on the lesson mare. I had to get used to her as well. But it was really quick that i got used to her and got in sync with her. And dont forget, I was riding her ONCE A WEEK! I will be riding my mare 2 times a week for now and eventualky up to 3 times a week. This is what my riding coach suggested as well. To start, she wull ride her first then i ride her for 20mins until i get more in sync then my ride time goes up and hers goes down.


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## Hoofpic

My outside coach was on my case again today about me being too heavy for Fly. A month ago i weighed Fly with a weight measure that we got from the horse store. 

She came in at 900lbs even but my outside trainer says to measure her with the formula that i learned from the first aid clinic i took (i dont remember it, have it at home). She says the tape measure isnt accurate.

Anyways i weighed myself this week and i came in at 170lbs. My saddle i dont know the exact weight but my guess is its 30-40lbs.

She wants me to bring my scale to the barn, carry my saddle, pad, cinch in my hands and stand on the scale to see total weight.

"If you are over 20%, and riding your mare, that is not fair to her."

My outside trainer, BO and riding coach all say and preach that a rider should never be anymore than 20% of the horses weight.

So i will find this formula and measure my mares weight again. Shes at least 900lbs.

My outside trainer wants the results for the next time she comes out.


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## Rainaisabelle

I don't think you look that heavy


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

I agree with what everyone else has said about your riding, so I won't comment on that. I will say that I agree that you don't look too heavy for Fly. Have you seen Clinton Anderson on Mindy? He's about your height and Mindy is 14.1. She was his main horse for years.










Fly looks like a lovely little horse! I like her!


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## evilamc

I think you look fine on her size wise. That was a great first ride I think, good job! I like how encouraging your trainer is. Would she be willing to give you a lunge line lesson or two with Fly? Maybe that could help you get used to her and focus on you some while she controls speed and direction?


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## bsms

Hoofpic said:


> ..."If you are over 20%, and riding your mare, that is not fair to her."...


Don't tell my horses. Bandit is 800 lbs, and I'm 160+ in my socks. Add a 30 lb roping saddle, and clothes and boots and saddle pad, and I break 25%. I rode Mia for 7 years. I was 180 in my socks then, and she was 900 lbs...so again, right around 25% with tack & clothes. I've ridden little 13.0 hand Cowboy at 30%, and we've done 2.5 hours and he trotted up the hill going home on his own desire.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/am-i-too-big-his-horse-605666/

_"The second Cavalry Endurance Ride was held in 1920. The U.S. Remount Service, representing the Army, became much more involved in the ride this year. The Army wanted to increase the weight carried to 245 pounds and the Arabian owners agreed. The horses traveled sixty miles a day for five days with a minimum time of nine hours each day. The highest average points of any breed entered went to Arabians, although a grade Thoroughbred entered by the Army won first...

..."With two endurance rides to the credit of Arabian horses in 1919 and 1920, the U.S. Remount, and incidentally the Jockey Club, felt something had to be done to beat these little horses in the next ride..." The Army selected all Thoroughbreds or grade Thoroughbreds which were all ridden by Cavalry majors. The Army also wanted to lower the weight carried to 200 pounds, but the Arabian people, having proved their horses at 245 pounds, objected. A compromise was reached at 225 pounds. 

In spite of the Army's efforts, the first prize in the 1921 Cavalry Endurance Ride went to W.R. Brown's purebred Arabian gelding *CRABBET #309. Mr. Brown won the trophy once again in 1923 with his Anglo-Arab gelding GOUYA."

http://www.arabianhorses.org/discover/arabian-horses/#Arabians in the U.S. Army

_800 lb Bandit & I at 25%:


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I don't think you look that heavy


Im not heavy at all. I am very very skinny and underweight for my height.

It's gotten REALLY ANNOYING when I have people constantly telling me that Im big or heavy for my mare. And you know what? Ive come to realize that for as long as I own Fly (or any other 14.2hh horse), I will always get harassed about my height on small ponies.

Just because Im tall doesnt mean Im into riding bigger horses. The 2nd horse Ive ever ridden (last year) was on a 18hh gelding. PRETTY NERVE RACKING WHEN YOU GET UP THERE. I was put on him and told to do a rising trot on him on a 20 metre circle. Uhh ya, for someone who is scared of heights, it was an experience alright. Can't say whether it did more harm or good for my learning.


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## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> I agree with what everyone else has said about your riding, so I won't comment on that. I will say that I agree that you don't look too heavy for Fly. Have you seen Clinton Anderson on Mindy? He's about your height and Mindy is 14.1. She was his main horse for years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fly looks like a lovely little horse! I like her!


Thanks. That is Clint in that pic? He looks very young in that pic.

I dont think Im too heavy at all. But even if I was coming up to 200lbs with the saddle, and she is indeed 900lbs (I will re-measure her with the formula that I learned) tomorrow. That would put me at what 22%?


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## Hoofpic

evilamc said:


> I think you look fine on her size wise. That was a great first ride I think, good job! I like how encouraging your trainer is. Would she be willing to give you a lunge line lesson or two with Fly? Maybe that could help you get used to her and focus on you some while she controls speed and direction?


Thanks. I definitely did have some good moments and good things that I can pull from it.

Like my riding coach said yesterday, my time on the lesson mare paid dividends because there is no way that she would have let me ride Fly the first time I rode for her to assess me as a rider. 

See what I mean when I said that I love how encouraging and positive, energetic my coach is? Her attitude and her encouragement really helps push me in wanting to go above and beyond in achieving what she wants from me. This is why I really do give a lot of credit to her as a coach and how it has influenced my progression in learning. 

She really does do a really great job in what she excels at the most and thats teaching riding. She is so easy to understand, shes very vocal and when I dont do what she asks, she gets on my case and yes she can be really hard on me about it. But this is a sign of a good coach and this is what gets me to really listen to her and smarten up.

Note: Dont think I mentioned this at all on here to any of you, but she learned from my BO. BO is a former trainer and heck he still does lessons here and there for some people who request it.

She is definitely going to give me a lunge line lesson on Fly. This is what she did (I believe in my 1st lesson) with the lesson mare. This was of course well before I even had the rising trot down or even was able to balance and steer at a 20 metre circle on a full trot. 

I think if anything what would really be beneficial for me and Fly (and my coach will let me do it, its just when) is full walks around the full arena so I can get more feel for my seat in the saddle, and also doing serpentines! I love doing these!


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## bsms

Percentage of the horse's weight means nothing. There are halter-bred QHs that are probably too heavy for their legs without a rider, while a thick-legged tank like 13.0 hands Cowboy can handle an exceptional amount of weight.

How to Ease the Burden | The Trail Rider

British Cavalry, World War One:


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## Rainaisabelle

Honestly (I don't care what your outside trainer says...) you're fine. You'll know if you aren't. 

Strangely, I am 160cm and 80kg and I love huge horses my current horse is 16.3 and I want my next one to be 17+


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> My outside coach was on my case again today about me being too heavy for Fly. A month ago i weighed Fly with a weight measure that we got from the horse store.
> 
> She came in at 900lbs even but my outside trainer says to measure her with the formula that i learned from the first aid clinic i took (i dont remember it, have it at home). She says the tape measure isnt accurate.
> 
> Anyways i weighed myself this week and i came in at 170lbs. My saddle i dont know the exact weight but my guess is its 30-40lbs.
> 
> She wants me to bring my scale to the barn, carry my saddle, pad, cinch in my hands and stand on the scale to see total weight.
> 
> "If you are over 20%, and riding your mare, that is not fair to her."
> 
> My outside trainer, BO and riding coach all say and preach that a rider should never be anymore than 20% of the horses weight.
> 
> So i will find this formula and measure my mares weight again. Shes at least 900lbs.
> 
> My outside trainer wants the results for the next time she comes out.


OK, this would be enough for me to kick her into touch right away, it is none of her business if you are to heavy for Fly, which you aren't. You DO look a little top heavy, because she is compact, and you are taller, so you will always have to watch your balance etc, riding a small horse is just harder when you are tall, that is why I sold my 14.2hh Haflinger I loved her, but I never felt stable on her.

Back to you and Fly, that 20% rule is not written in stone anywhere, it is a guideline, nothing more, some horses shouldn't carry more than 10% most will be comfortable between 10 and 20% some will happily carry up to 30%. Remember that they are saying at 20% you can ride all day, jump, go hunting do whatever, doesn't mean that at 21% you can suddenly do nothing. It is common sense, and I would listen to your riding trainer in this one.

At the end of the day, your horse, your choice, and I would certainly NOT be turning up with a scale to prove to a groundwork trainer that I was a match for my horse.


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## ManicMini

I would brush off the comments about you being too heavy for your mare. You aren't doing any prolonged, strenuous riding and Fly doesn't appear to be distressed by carrying you. FWIW my horse isn't much bigger than Fly at 15hh and not much heavier at 1000lbs. I loan him out to my SO's friend who weighs 220lbs not including the tack! They ride all over the hills and since his friend is a balanced rider, my horse hasn't come up sore. 

My SO is 6'5" and he rides a Standardbred that is 16-16.2hh. She has a smaller barrel and he frequently gets comments that he's too big for his mare because of how low his legs hang past her belly. He tells them if it doesn't bother the horse, it shouldn't bother them. This is a cropped pic of him on his mare...or not since the forum won't let me attach pics -_-


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## sarahfromsc

Your scale? No sir!

Sweet Jesus.


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Your scale? No sir!
> 
> Sweet Jesus.


What?

Well I was a bit taken back when she told me to either bring my saddle home to weight myself with the saddle or bring the scale to the barn. I actually will do this but its because im curious how much my saddle weighs, not so much about fulfilling my trainers request. But I know she will ask the next time she comes out on what the results are. 

She's brought this up with me many times already, I just think she needs to back off already. I get her point.


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## Rainaisabelle

I would have kicked her the curb awhile ago


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> OK, this would be enough for me to kick her into touch right away, it is none of her business if you are to heavy for Fly, which you aren't.


I think she needs to back off on this topic.



> You DO look a little top heavy, because she is compact, and you are taller, so you will always have to watch your balance etc,


I wear layers, (never known with barn weather), so I had a few sweaters on.

Tomorrow Im going to ride in something lighter and try jeans instead. 

Has anyone ridden in shorts before?

Personally, I dont even find jeans all that comfy to ride in. If I could ride in sports attire I would do this. Lightest clothing in weight.



> riding a small horse is just harder when you are tall, that is why I sold my 14.2hh Haflinger I loved her, but I never felt stable on her.


Yes and I realized this yesterday and am prepared to put in the extra effort to overcome what I need to overcome. 



> Back to you and Fly, that 20% rule is not written in stone anywhere, it is a guideline, nothing more, some horses shouldn't carry more than 10% most will be comfortable between 10 and 20% some will happily carry up to 30%. Remember that they are saying at 20% you can ride all day, jump, go hunting do whatever, doesn't mean that at 21% you can suddenly do nothing. It is common sense, and I would listen to your riding trainer in this one.


Good point. 

And afterall, once she gains more muscle, she will obvious become stronger and should be able to handle more weight am I right? Not that I plan on having a heavier person on her.



> At the end of the day, your horse, your choice, and I would certainly NOT be turning up with a scale to prove to a groundwork trainer that I was a match for my horse.


I was a bit puzzled as to her request thats forsure. I dont know why shes being so hard on me about this.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I would have kicked her the curb awhile ago


Im trying to be very polite about it because I know shes doing me a lot more good than harm (from all the learning Ive gotten from her), but I do wish she would just let this go.

I am going to exchange my new scale right now for a digital one and see if the reading is any different. I find my scale that I just picked up last week isnt accurate. Half of the time I get 160lbs, the other half I get 170lbs. I think Im more 160ish.


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## Rainaisabelle

Shes making you obsess over your weight?


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I wear layers, (never known with barn weather), so I had a few sweaters on.
> 
> Tomorrow Im going to ride in something lighter and try jeans instead.
> 
> Has anyone ridden in shorts before?
> 
> Personally, I dont even find jeans all that comfy to ride in. If I could ride in sports attire I would do this. Lightest clothing in weight.


When I say top heavy I mean tall, not in weight in anyway, because she is small, as in short, and compact, as in short backed, it makes you look tall on her. You will look better when you relax a little.

Do not ride in shorts, very unprofessional to turn up for a lesson in shorts for sure. Try stretch jeans maybe, or even English breeches, lightweight bootcut would work


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## bsms

I've never climbed on a horse where me & my tack didn't hit 200 lbs, and the heaviest horse I've owned during my 8 years of riding was 900 lbs. When Lilly (around 800 lbs) was green broke, she struggled a bit with me...for a few weeks. We kept the rides short and she adapted in a month. Cowboy is around 700 lbs. If the terrain gets rough enough, I max him out. Maybe more than max out, so I'll dismount if the terrain is rough. Bandit (800 lbs) and Mia (900 lbs) never saw the day they couldn't handle me. Bandit's previous owner was probably 220-230 in his socks, 250+ with tack, and that was (IMHO) more than an 800 lb horse should be asked to carry.

If they are struggling with your weight, you'll feel it and the instructor should be able to see it. But there is no scientific evidence for the 20% rule on a riding-fit horse. None. And it was NOT a US Cavalry rule. They bought horses averaging 1000 lbs to carry a 250 lb load (rider and gear) for 20+ mile days.

Jeans with a flat inner seam work for me. The folks who have ridden our horses in shorts never rode them TWICE in shorts. Their choice. I also have a strong preference for boots with a good heel. I feel safer that way:


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. That is Clint in that pic? He looks very young in that pic.
> 
> I dont think Im too heavy at all. But even if I was coming up to 200lbs with the saddle, and she is indeed 900lbs (I will re-measure her with the formula that I learned) tomorrow. That would put me at what 22%?


Yes that's him. She was his main horse from the late 90s-2010, and then CA retired her (I believe those around the correct years, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong). So, chances are that he was a bit younger when this pic was taken.

Yes that would be 22%, but I personally wouldn't get too hung up on the percentages.
I know you're taking it into consideration since your trainer mentioned it, but I would tell you to listen to your horse. While some horses won't really show if they're uncomfortable, most will. So, my advice to you would just be to listen to Fly- chances are that she will let you know if she's uncomfortable. From what I saw in the video, she looks fine! =)


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## DraftyAiresMum

Golden Horse said:


> When I say top heavy I mean tall, not in weight in anyway, because she is small, as in short, and compact, as in short backed, it makes you look tall on her. You will look better when you relax a little.
> 
> Do not ride in shorts, very unprofessional to turn up for a lesson in shorts for sure. Try stretch jeans maybe, or even English breeches, lightweight bootcut would work


I agree with this.

You look precarious up there because of how long your torso is. I'm curious how long your inseam is, as you look very long-waisted. I do think that the look of it will improve when you relax.

You're not too heavy for her. I have ridden my best friend's 14.3hh mare who is about 1100lbs at my heaviest, which was 275lbs. My barrel saddle I was riding in was another 20lbs. She didn't even notice me up there.


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## paintedpastures

I think you did pretty well your first time. I know unsureness of her movement & how she reacts to your cues added together with the reins being to short make it harder to relax body . You are stretching your arms forward to try give the reins more slack so you can give her release & not be bumping her mouth. That just seems to follow down & stiffen everything up & hard to relax & go with movement of horse:sad:. I indeed think the change to longer rein & stirrups will help:wink: That combined with you now having got that first ride under your belt ,gives confidence & excitement to keep going:runninghorse2:

Happy for you !!! You look good on your horse don't let anyone tell you different !!! PS are you riding at Duke ranch??


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## Hoofpic

I just got the new scale and the new one says I weigh 117lbs. WHAT?! lol jesus how hard is it to buy an accurate weight scale.

I dont think I weigh 160lbs but I definitely do not weigh 117lbs. I think Im around 130lbs. If thats the case then my trainers and the BO will be happy.


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## Hoofpic

ManicMini said:


> I would brush off the comments about you being too heavy for your mare. You aren't doing any prolonged, strenuous riding and Fly doesn't appear to be distressed by carrying you. FWIW my horse isn't much bigger than Fly at 15hh and not much heavier at 1000lbs. I loan him out to my SO's friend who weighs 220lbs not including the tack! They ride all over the hills and since his friend is a balanced rider, my horse hasn't come up sore.
> 
> My SO is 6'5" and he rides a Standardbred that is 16-16.2hh. She has a smaller barrel and he frequently gets comments that he's too big for his mare because of how low his legs hang past her belly. He tells them if it doesn't bother the horse, it shouldn't bother them. This is a cropped pic of him on his mare...or not since the forum won't let me attach pics -_-


Thanks. Id love to see the pics.

I know for a fact that theyre are guys out there way bigger than me who ride smaller horses. Like I said, Im around 130-160lbs tops. Im very underweight for my height.


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## Rainaisabelle

Weigh yourself first thing in the morning before you eat but after you've been to the bathroom..


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Weigh yourself first thing in the morning before you eat but after you've been to the bathroom..


Oh ok. Didnt know this. This is hoping my scale is accurate.

I just put on a 20lb and 45lb dumbell and both readings were 18.8lbs and 37lbs. Odd. I highly doubt dumbells are off on the reading lol.


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## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> Yes that's him. She was his main horse from the late 90s-2010, and then CA retired her (I believe those around the correct years, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong). So, chances are that he was a bit younger when this pic was taken.
> 
> Yes that would be 22%, but I personally wouldn't get too hung up on the percentages.
> I know you're taking it into consideration since your trainer mentioned it, but I would tell you to listen to your horse. While some horses won't really show if they're uncomfortable, most will. So, my advice to you would just be to listen to Fly- chances are that she will let you know if she's uncomfortable. From what I saw in the video, she looks fine! =)


Personally, I dont get why so many people are so hung up on percentages.


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## Hoofpic

paintedpastures said:


> I think you did pretty well your first time. I know unsureness of her movement & how she reacts to your cues added together with the reins being to short make it harder to relax body . You are stretching your arms forward to try give the reins more slack so you can give her release & not be bumping her mouth. That just seems to follow down & stiffen everything up & hard to relax & go with movement of horse:sad:. I indeed think the change to longer rein & stirrups will help:wink: That combined with you now having got that first ride under your belt ,gives confidence & excitement to keep going:runninghorse2:
> 
> Happy for you !!! You look good on your horse don't let anyone tell you different !!! PS are you riding at Duke ranch??


Thanks.

No Im not at Duke Ranch. 

I feel confident on her and obviously it will go up the more I ride her. 

I gaurentee there will be a huge improvement in me on her tomorrow. I know exactly what I need to do. Getting that first monkey off my back is a ridiculously huge weight off my shoulders. 

Now flashing back, I see why my riding coach asked me a month ago to see if i wanted to use my new saddle on the lesson mare to see if it fits and if it did, ride her in it. Cause it gets me used to a new saddle and the saddle that I will be using all the time.


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## tinyliny

Is this YOUR green mare or the school horse? 


Speaking frankly, your riding skill is still very much at a beginner level. I realize this is painful to hear, but it is true, based on that video. However, in just that one lesson, and with the spirited help of that instructor, and your sincere efforts, I saw improvement . 

Personally, I would not see you as ready to really ride a green horse anywhere outside of an arena with trAiner support. And, you really will benefit from some lunge line lessons where you get your seat more secure and then can be freer to work on holding the reins and affecting your horse . As it is, you are so unstable that your rein contact us all over the place and irritated the mare.


However, you have a will and a dream and with work and time you can achieve it!


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## DraftyAiresMum

tinyliny said:


> As it is, you are so unstable that your rein contact us all over the place and irritated the mare.


I think this is what I was seeing. I knew it wasn't quite nervousness or unsurety. It was irritation. I think the longer reins will help some, but how much remains to be seen.


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## Hoofpic

This new scale is 100% accurate, apparently these really do need to be on a hard and flat surface to measure weight accurately. I was getting jumping readings when i had it on the carpet - anywhere from 115lbs to 122lbs. I put it on a flat unfinished floor in my basement and I got 161.6lbs 5 times in a row, even when standing on it with one foot. For someone at my height of 6'2, I still am about 40lbs under weight.

So it looks like i will be around 200lbs if not bit over with my saddle. I will still weigh my saddle but I might have to bring the saddle home to do it since there is no hard completely flat surfaces at the barn.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I think this is what I was seeing. I knew it wasn't quite nervousness or unsurety. It was irritation. I think the longer reins will help some, but how much remains to be seen.


I was trying to find my riding coaches reins that I used on Friday to compare the length of them with my new ones but I couldnt find hers. Maybe its just me, but I swore that her reins were a bit shorter in length than the leather ones that im use to using. 

With her reins, if I had my elbows in my sides and my hands just in front of them, my hands would be at the very end of the reins meaning I would have zero slack in between my hands. Definitely not was I was use to. 

I will see how the new set of reins are. I went with soft nylon (same material as in lead ropes) over leather simply cause i dont like the "snap" that leather reins have when they get twisted and bundled up. Nylon dont have this problem. But these are MUCH thinner reins than the ones I used on Friday. The ones on Friday were as thick as a lead rope.

This whole thing makes no sense because Im sure my new reins are no longer in length than the ones I used on Friday, I just think it is but its most likely not. But if I used those leather ones on the lesson mare and I still had slack when I had my elbows in and hands down low, then, seeing how the ones I used Friday are most likely the same length and my mare is smaller, I should have had more slack between my hands not less.


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## bsms

A famous French rider from the late 1800s had a unique approach to teaching someone riding. At the start:

"_The repetition of these flexions will soon render the legs supple, pliable and independent of the thighs. The flexions of the legs and thighs will be continued for four days (eight lessons). To make each of these movements more correct and easier, eight days (or sixteen lessons), will be devoted to it. The fifteen days (thirty lessons), which remain to complete the month, will continue to be occupied by the exercise of stationary supplings..._"

If I understood him correctly, he felt the first month of twice a day lessons should be done on a stationary horse while the student did exercises to supple and strengthen the body, just to get ready to start riding!

That sounded crazy to me, but the more I thought about it, the less crazy it sounds. If I were going to try teaching someone to ride - and no one would ever pay me for lessons, not with how I ride - I think I'd start with 1-3 hour trail rides on a calm trail horse, walking and maybe sometimes a little trotting.

During my first 15 minutes on a horse, I suck at riding. I'm horrible...after 8 years. I'm just so stiff and tight! The next 15 minutes, I'm merely bad. Still too tight. It takes 30 minutes for me to relax and stretch out enough to kind of melt around the horse, and only then do I move WITH him instead of perch ON him!

There are things about riding that cannot be changed just by knowing what you need to do. I KNOW what I need to do, but my 58 year old body doesn't cooperate! I adapt by trying to avoid anything challenging during the first 30 minutes of riding. Pretty much walking and easy turns for the first 15 minutes, and some light trotting and a bit more aggressive turning during the second 15 minutes.

But since my horse doesn't like doing 30 minutes in the arena, and since he sometimes spooks hard during a ride through the neighborhood, when heading out...I often keep a hand on the saddle horn. I know it is "wrong", but a hard spook 5 minutes into the ride is tough on me. I'm fine after 30.

That is why I looked to see how things changed as the lesson progressed. And after 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes...it looked to me like you were relaxing, getting stretched out and more comfortable in the saddle. If so, that will not change in a day or week. You're young, so your body will adapt in a way mine refuses to do. But it will take time, and time on horseback. Some things can't be rushed.


----------



## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> Don't tell my horses. Bandit is 800 lbs, and I'm 160+ in my socks. Add a 30 lb roping saddle, and clothes and boots and saddle pad, and I break 25%. I rode Mia for 7 years. I was 180 in my socks then, and she was 900 lbs...so again, right around 25% with tack & clothes. I've ridden little 13.0 hand Cowboy at 30%, and we've done 2.5 hours and he trotted up the hill going home on his own desire.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/am-i-too-big-his-horse-605666/
> 
> _"The second Cavalry Endurance Ride was held in 1920. The U.S. Remount Service, representing the Army, became much more involved in the ride this year. The Army wanted to increase the weight carried to 245 pounds and the Arabian owners agreed. The horses traveled sixty miles a day for five days with a minimum time of nine hours each day. The highest average points of any breed entered went to Arabians, although a grade Thoroughbred entered by the Army won first...
> 
> ..."With two endurance rides to the credit of Arabian horses in 1919 and 1920, the U.S. Remount, and incidentally the Jockey Club, felt something had to be done to beat these little horses in the next ride..." The Army selected all Thoroughbreds or grade Thoroughbreds which were all ridden by Cavalry majors. The Army also wanted to lower the weight carried to 200 pounds, but the Arabian people, having proved their horses at 245 pounds, objected. A compromise was reached at 225 pounds.
> 
> In spite of the Army's efforts, the first prize in the 1921 Cavalry Endurance Ride went to W.R. Brown's purebred Arabian gelding *CRABBET #309. Mr. Brown won the trophy once again in 1923 with his Anglo-Arab gelding GOUYA."
> 
> ArabianHorses.org - Arabian Horses
> 
> _800 lb Bandit & I at 25%:


Thanks for the pic, that gives me a good idea.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I agree with above, you need to follow the movement! And let your reins out like 2 - 3inches so that they're just Infront of the saddle... But in saying that your instructor will correct you
> 
> With following movement I found it the best to close your eyes and just sit and feel your seat bones going 1,2,1,2 you'll feel it and you should follow it.


And this is why Im very much looking forward to when my trainer allows me to trot my mare full arena. IMO, its easier to get your seating down correctly when using the full arena as opposed to a 20 metre circle, trot or walk. 

I have a feeling she will allow me to do this today, im going to ask. She didnt do it on Friday because she was worried my mare will try to speed up on me. 

I know on the lesson mare, I got my seat in the saddle by doing lots of full arena walks and trots first before tackling 20 metre circles.

And this is why I said that my lesson on Friday actually did bring flashbacks to my very first lesson on the lesson mare. We did some 20m trots and I had the same issues. Hands too forward, unintentionally leaning forward, too stiff. But once we went back to full arena walk and trots, corner to corner, along the wall, I very quickly got my seating right and carried it over back to the 20 metre circles. So I have no doubt i can do this again.

Im not trying to make excuses but perhaps having me work my mare on a trot on a 20 metre circle in the first few minutes getting on her wasnt the best and most ideal situation in terms of me getting my seating right. New horse, new saddle, I definitely think I should have started by using the full arena first, THEN go to 20 metre circles.

Thats why the saying goes and every trainer has told me this "anyone can balance in a straight line, but circling is a lot harder". Not saying i cant balance on my mare when circling, I can, but full arena walks and trots along the wall are really beneficial when getting used to a new horse and new saddle because it allows you to get your seating down more quickly and easier. Just my opinion.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Something like the length of your reins shouldn't be such a big deal. Yes, the reins you used were too short. Standard length on leather reins is 8'. Most nylon or other synthetic reins I've seen are 7'. Get a pair of 8' reins and move on. It's not rocket surgery.


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> But since my horse doesn't like doing 30 minutes in the arena, and since he sometimes spooks hard during a ride through the neighborhood, when heading out...I often keep a hand on the saddle horn. I know it is "wrong", but a hard spook 5 minutes into the ride is tough on me. I'm fine after 30.


IMO, when a horse spooks, you need to do whatever you are most comfortable with to make you feel safe. If you have to grab the horn, to do it. Ive never been on a horse who has spooked so I cant say what i would do.



> That is why I looked to see how things changed as the lesson progressed. And after 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes...it looked to me like you were relaxing, getting stretched out and more comfortable in the saddle. If so, that will not change in a day or week. You're young, so your body will adapt in a way mine refuses to do. But it will take time, and time on horseback. Some things can't be rushed.


Yes I did make progress and was more relaxed as the lesson went on. When I get on today, with the new reins and new stirrups (that actually fit my feet), I will be even more relaxed. You will see a huge change in me today. Im very commited and know exactly what I need to do. Im itching to get back at er, this is how commited I am to achieving what I want to achieve with my mare in the saddle. 

I have set expectations and goals for myself as a rider on my mare (and are they too high? perhaps, but I like challenge), and this is why I set the bar high for myself, because I know its needed and the importance behind it, not just for my sake as a rider on my mare but my mares sake. 

Did I like having zombie arms on Friday? Of course not, in fact I was quite upset about this after I saw the footage. I "had" this problem at first on the lesson mare but I quickly got rid of it. I totally did not see myself going back to a bad habit that I had on my own mare. But on the other hand, it doesnt surprise me because again, completely new horse, completely new plan in terms of how I ride her.

I'm not that young (35), but when I'm really devoted to achieving something in life, I still very much feel young. Im a go getter, so I go after what I want. I experienced it last summer, when you have a passion for something, there are no limits. 

Dont forget, when I got my mare last June and even leading up to last fall, I didnt have a whole lot of interest in riding in general. Remember, how at one point I was even second guessing on buying a saddle and just using her bareback pad? All because I didnt have a whole lot of interest in riding and I had much more interest in groundwork, horsemanship, obstacles etc? I will be honest, riding was very much an after thought at this time.

Well since then, and since Ive gotten back into riding, is when I realized just how important riding is. When I first got back in the saddle, was I jumping in excitement going around in circles around the arena? God no. But as time progressed and the more coaching I got, I got to acknowledge the meaning behind it and why we do it. And I think thats the most important thing. I have a completely different mindset as far as how I view riding today than I did even 7 months ago.

I wont accept my body or mind to refuse change that I want to do. I will make it happen, there's no excuses.


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## greentree

Rocket surgery!!! That's a good one, Drafty!


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> And this is why Im very much looking forward to when my trainer allows me to trot my mare full arena. IMO, its easier to get your seating down correctly when using the full arena as opposed to a 20 metre circle, trot or walk.
> 
> I have a feeling she will allow me to do this today, im going to ask. She didnt do it on Friday because she was worried my mare will try to speed up on me.
> 
> I know on the lesson mare, I got my seat in the saddle by doing lots of full arena walks and trots first before tackling 20 metre circles.
> 
> And this is why I said that my lesson on Friday actually did bring flashbacks to my very first lesson on the lesson mare. We did some 20m trots and I had the same issues. Hands too forward, unintentionally leaning forward, too stiff. But once we went back to full arena walk and trots, corner to corner, along the wall, I very quickly got my seating right and carried it over back to the 20 metre circles. So I have no doubt i can do this again.
> 
> Im not trying to make excuses but perhaps having me work my mare on a trot on a 20 metre circle in the first few minutes getting on her wasnt the best and most ideal situation in terms of me getting my seating right. New horse, new saddle, I definitely think I should have started by using the full arena first, THEN go to 20 metre circles.
> 
> Thats why the saying goes and every trainer has told me this "anyone can balance in a straight line, but circling is a lot harder". Not saying i cant balance on my mare when circling, I can, but full arena walks and trots along the wall are really beneficial when getting used to a new horse and new saddle because it allows you to get your seating down more quickly and easier. Just my opinion.


This whole post here, THIS is why inexperienced riders should not have inexperienced horses, and yes I know it is a done deal for Hoofpic, but for anyone else who reads this...

The mare NEEDS to be worked on a 20m circle, the trainer is right, it saves having to try and rate her speed the whole time, you work them on a nice circle, keep the bend, keep it soft. Here the rider does not have the balance for a 20m circle and wants to 'go large' which can mean that the mare could speed up and then there is the temptation to take a pull.

I have to ask, you have said something like this twice now



> I had my lesson with my outside trainer today and she asked how my ride went. I told her and we chatted a bit about it. We both agreed that the biggest and most immediate adjustment that im having to make is going from a 15hh horse to a 14.2hh horse. On the lesson mare, i had a bit of a buffer for her to not read my signals if i accidentally lean forward on her. Because Fly has a shorter back, i dont have that margin for error which is a-ok by me because like I said this will put my balance and bacj posture to the test.


It makes ZERO sense to me, what is this margin of error you are talking about? I have never heard of this change from a horse with a longer back, to a shorter back, if it is something that your 'ground work coach' is saying it is another strike against her....


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> This new scale is 100% accurate, apparently these really do need to be on a hard and flat surface to measure weight accurately. I was getting jumping readings when i had it on the carpet - anywhere from 115lbs to 122lbs. I put it on a flat unfinished floor in my basement and I got 161.6lbs 5 times in a row, even when standing on it with one foot. For someone at my height of 6'2, I still am about 40lbs under weight.
> 
> So it looks like i will be around 200lbs if not bit over with my saddle. I will still weigh my saddle but I might have to bring the saddle home to do it since there is no hard completely flat surfaces at the barn.


DO not get hung up on scales and weights, and please DO NOT think you have to prove anything to that ground work person, your riding trainer is fine with you riding, everyone else is fine with you riding, GO RIDE......

Be a man, tell her it is your horse, and you are going to ride it, it sounds to me just another barrier she is throwing in your way, "Oh you're not ready" "Oh you are too heavy" Because she fears once you actually start riding, you will be dispensing with her services, because lets face it who can afford to keep paying out for that much training time...

If I had the money spare, I would spend the money you are giving her on having more riding hours put on your mare, so at least there is one experienced person in the partnership....


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## greentree

Ther's that deja vu feeling again......

1. Is this the Godsend Parelli girl telling you that you are too big for Fly? 

2. Remember the Parelli lesson about being a predator around a prey animal? 

There is (obviously) nothing wrong with having goals and expectations, for a human. But the horse usually reads this as tension, and tension is the WORST thing you can have on a young, green horse who has no experience. They read it as predatory behavior, and it sets up a fight or flight response.

For at least a month, if you are riding regularly, I would leave all those goals at home. Relax, and ride. Make sure the mare does all the basics, but resist the "Today, We Are Going To Do Perfect Circles" thinking, because it makes you tense. 

Have a wonderful ride!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Golden Horse said:


> This whole post here, THIS is why inexperienced riders should not have inexperienced horses, and yes I know it is a done deal for Hoofpic, but for anyone else who reads this...
> 
> The mare NEEDS to be worked on a 20m circle, the trainer is right, it saves having to try and rate her speed the whole time, you work them on a nice circle, keep the bend, keep it soft. Here the rider does not have the balance for a 20m circle and wants to 'go large' which can mean that the mare could speed up and then there is the temptation to take a pull.
> 
> I have to ask, you have said something like this twice now
> 
> 
> 
> It makes ZERO sense to me, what is this margin of error you are talking about? I have never heard of this change from a horse with a longer back, to a shorter back, if it is something that your 'ground work coach' is saying it is another strike against her....


Wish I could "like" this dozens of more times.

When I worked at a Girl Scout horse camp as a wrangler, we had sixteen horses. We had everything from a chunky 13.3hh APHA mare to a fat 16.3hh friesian cross. I rode them all at least once. While there was a difference in gaits and smoothness, there was never an issue balancing over the different lengths of backs. Half the time, I was riding in a saddle that didn't fit me, as each horse had their own specific saddle and pads. My balance and riding was the same (with some minor adjustments for differences in gaits), regardless of the saddle or how long or short my stirrups were. There was one saddle that the off side stirrup was stuck on a certain hole that was much too short for my long legs. It was an uncomfortable ride (thankfully I only ever had to school that horse once!), but it was just as productive as any of my others.

By the way, I'm not terribly experienced in the saddle, even though it may sound like it. I've had one "formal" lesson in my life. I have ridden a variety of horses, both in the arena and on the trail. This is why I can speak from experience that green plus green is rarely a good idea.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> My outside coach was on my case again today about me being too heavy for Fly.
> 
> "If you are over 20%, and riding your mare, that is not fair to her."


Bullsh!t.

This is me on our gelding Sultan - note this pic is taken during a 100 mile endurance ride:











Sultan weighs just over 800 lb. Sometimes there is a scale at some of our events, and he had weighed in at 810-820. With my tack, I weigh 170-175 (you get weighed for best condition, so I am all too aware of what my weight with my tack is!). So on the best end of that (170 & 820), I am riding at 20.7% and on the other end its 21.6%. Both of those numbers being over the magic 20%.

Yet we do things like this:











My DH rides him way more than I do (Sultan is his heart horse). DH with his tack weighs in 180-185, meaning he is riding at 22% at best.











Don't let anybody tell you 20% is some crazy end point to functionality.

And don't let them tell you anything like 'well it might work for now, but you will lame that horse in the long run.' Sultan has been doing endurance for 10 years now, and is still going strong at 17.


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## Golden Horse

@phantomhorse13 I wish I could like your post and your pics several times over


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## bsms

"The mare NEEDS to be worked on a 20m circle, the trainer is right, it saves having to try and rate her speed the whole time, you work them on a nice circle, keep the bend, keep it soft. Here the rider does not have the balance for a 20m circle and wants to 'go large' which can mean that the mare could speed up and then there is the temptation to take a pull."

Hmmm...none of my horses have been worked on a 20m circle, although the usable are in our little arena is about 60 feet wide. Bandit can work for short bursts in the arena, maybe 10 minutes or so, but then he needs to get out. Keep him working in the arena, and you'll get an upset horse.

The way to learn not to keep a pull on the horse is to ride out with slack reins. Lilly may have been backed a half-dozen times before going out. Purebred Arabian mare, green as green could be, bitless - and she could be taken out. Mia was also a purebred Arabian mare, and she was an entirely different animal. Some horses ride great even when green as a new apple, and others are challenging after years in the saddle. But watching Fly, I saw more resemblance to Lilly than to Mia. And it took 800 lb Lilly about 2 weeks to adjust to my then 185 lbs plus western saddle (probably around 215 total, so around 27%).

There are suppling exercises one can do to help the horse. But what Hoofpic needs will be learning to relax in the saddle. Lots of straight lines will help both her and her horse. I'd guess Fly could be ridden fairly well in a sidepull, which is another great way to learn not to hold a horse back with the bit. But that is a separate problem, and one which might not ever develop. 



greentree said:


> ...For at least a month, if you are riding regularly, I would leave all those goals at home. Relax, and ride. Make sure the mare does all the basics, but resist the "Today, We Are Going To Do Perfect Circles" thinking, because it makes you tense.
> 
> Have a wonderful ride!


I agree. Just find some things you and your horse can do together. Don't ask or expect perfection from either of you. Relax and try to just have fun. 

_"...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals....a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness..." - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)_

I'm not a Parelli fan, but there IS something to be said for trying to find some 'games' you can play with her, from horseback. Teach Fly that riding is something you do together, and that it is a fun thing to do. Horses love "together"! The more the two of you concentrate on having fun, the faster your balance and teamwork will happen. You cannot force it, but you can ruin it by working too hard. Another old picture:


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## KigerQueen

my fiance is about 270lbs and rides any size horse including the pony (Apache reservation horse) who might weight in at 700lbs. that little crazy thing will chase cows all day, run barrels and run up mountains like he dose not even exist! i weigh 170 and i used to rise my 14.2hh little arabian and she had NO problems with me on her back. Soo unless she weights 700lbs and you weight 300 i would not worry about it!

i think your ground work trainer dose NOT want you riding because once you are riding you wont need to do so much ground work. and once you dont need that you dont need her. she needs you more than you need her. Why on EARTH yould you continue to do ground work (to get her ready to ride) if you are "too big" to ride her? think of that. I would stick with 1 trainer for now. the one who wants to see you ride, the one who wants to help you reach your goal!


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## Hoofpic

Dont have much time to chat, lesson is coming up but after some thinking im considering dropping my lesson time with the outside trainer to once a week and now i ride my mare 3 times a week.

She will be quite upset about it im sure and will probably go bonkers when she hears about this.

Cause even at 2 rides a week and 2 days with outside trainer, and i have to work on stuff that i learn from my outside trainer on my own. My mare still needs days off and what about the days we just hang out?


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> DO not get hung up on scales and weights, and please DO NOT think you have to prove anything to that ground work person, your riding trainer is fine with you riding, everyone else is fine with you riding, GO RIDE......
> 
> Be a man, tell her it is your horse, and you are going to ride it, it sounds to me just another barrier she is throwing in your way, "Oh you're not ready" "Oh you are too heavy" Because she fears once you actually start riding, you will be dispensing with her services, because lets face it who can afford to keep paying out for that much training time...
> 
> If I had the money spare, I would spend the money you are giving her on having more riding hours put on your mare, so at least there is one experienced person in the partnership....


The outside trainer yesterday really annoyed me when she getting on my case about my weight. It really set me off for our entire lesson yesterday. It killed my mood.

I think im better seeing her once a week, not more. She keeps preaching that what she teaches me, i work on it with my mare everyday and IMO thats too much. I need days off as does my mare. Plus those hang out days for my mare and i are very crucial. I dont want to be haltering her and working her every single time i come out. I know my mare appreciates the days where i ask nothing from her because shes told me when i really started doing this months ago.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Regarding your size versus Fly.

This is me on my 14.2hh, 800lbs, narrow Arab/NSH cross gelding. I'm 5'7" and was about 165-170lbs in the pic. I'm riding in a 45lbs western show saddle. He had no trouble with me at all, even with severe arthritis in his hocks.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Dont have much time to chat, lesson is coming up but after some thinking im considering dropping my lesson time with the outside trainer to once a week and now i ride my mare 3 times a week.
> 
> She will be quite upset about it im sure and will probably go bonkers when she hears about this.


Well if she is at all unprofessional about it, then great excuse to tell her to go, you are the client, you are paying, you call the shots, remember that.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Ther's that deja vu feeling again......
> 
> 1. Is this the Godsend Parelli girl telling you that you are too big for Fly?
> 
> 2. Remember the Parelli lesson about being a predator around a prey animal?
> 
> There is (obviously) nothing wrong with having goals and expectations, for a human. But the horse usually reads this as tension, and tension is the WORST thing you can have on a young, green horse who has no experience. They read it as predatory behavior, and it sets up a fight or flight response.
> 
> For at least a month, if you are riding regularly, I would leave all those goals at home. Relax, and ride. Make sure the mare does all the basics, but resist the "Today, We Are Going To Do Perfect Circles" thinking, because it makes you tense.
> 
> Have a wonderful ride!


Ok ill leave all my goals at home. done.

Gkad i read this before my lesson today


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Well if she is at all unprofessional about it, then great excuse to tell her to go, you are the client, you are paying, you call the shots, remember that.


Yip, how she reacts will say alot about her. We shall see how she is when i tell her. Its official, i will see her once a week, not twice. What ive realized is that two lessons a week come up very very quickly especially when the trainer gives me homework to do and i like to give my mare two days off a week where she can just hang out and be a horse and not see me haha.


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## sarahfromsc

phantomhorse13 said:


> Bullsh!t.
> 
> This is me on our gelding Sultan - note this pic is taken during a 100 mile endurance ride:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sultan weighs just over 800 lb. Sometimes there is a scale at some of our events, and he had weighed in at 810-820. With my tack, I weigh 170-175 (you get weighed for best condition, so I am all too aware of what my weight with my tack is!). So on the best end of that (170 & 820), I am riding at 20.7% and on the other end its 21.6%. Both of those numbers being over the magic 20%.
> 
> Yet we do things like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My DH rides him way more than I do (Sultan is his heart horse). DH with his tack weighs in 180-185, meaning he is riding at 22% at best.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let anybody tell you 20% is some crazy end point to functionality.
> 
> And don't let them tell you anything like 'well it might work for now, but you will lame that horse in the long run.' Sultan has been doing endurance for 10 years now, and is still going strong at 17.


 Just wanted to add another 100 likes!


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## sarahfromsc

Golden Horse said:


> This whole post here, THIS is why inexperienced riders should not have inexperienced horses, and yes I know it is a done deal for Hoofpic, but for anyone else who reads this...
> 
> The mare NEEDS to be worked on a 20m circle, the trainer is right, it saves having to try and rate her speed the whole time, you work them on a nice circle, keep the bend, keep it soft. Here the rider does not have the balance for a 20m circle and wants to 'go large' which can mean that the mare could speed up and then there is the temptation to take a pull.
> 
> I have to ask, you have said something like this twice now
> 
> 
> 
> It makes ZERO sense to me, what is this margin of error you are talking about? I have never heard of this change from a horse with a longer back, to a shorter back, if it is something that your 'ground work coach' is saying it is another strike against her....


 1000 likes!


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## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic, I know there are people who disagree with achieving a nice circle, with a soft bend, and a horse that travels in a relax and in a rhythmic manner. 

The circles are as much for your benefit as it is for your mare. 

Those circles will teach about inside leg and rein vs. outside rein and leg. The circles will teach your mare how to respond to those aids of yours. 

Those circles will teach you about your seat.

The circles will help get your mare to relax, have rhythm with in each gait.

Those circles will help, you and your mare when learning the canter and which lead to ask for.

Those circles will teach you about diagonals.

Then the circles will expand to include figure eights and serpentins.

Listen to your trainer and don't put the roof on before you have a foundation.

Relax and listen to YOUR TAINER.


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## Hoofpic

Well thats a wrap.

Coach said i did better! Wwwway more relaxed! I was able to get my mare trotting for much longer. I was in sync with her for longer. 

You will see in the video.

Im fine with trotting her to her right on a 20 metre circle but i need to practice, practice, pratice to the left.

Coach said its a good thing if anything because riding to my right is my strength but its my mares weakness. And immedaitely that made m flashback to the mane event where one of the trainers said to make your horses weakness your strength.

And she said practice, practice, practice. The more ride time i can get on her, the betterfor the both of us.


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## Rainaisabelle

20m circles are fantastic..... Check out other people's threads you might learn some things.


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## Rainaisabelle

sarahfromsc said:


> Hoofpic, I know there are people who disagree with achieving a nice circle, with a soft bend, and a horse that travels in a relax and in a rhythmic manner.
> 
> The circles are as much for your benefit as it is for your mare.
> 
> Those circles will teach about inside leg and rein vs. outside rein and leg. The circles will teach your mare how to respond to those aids of yours.
> 
> Those circles will teach you about your seat.
> 
> The circles will help get your mare to relax, have rhythm with in each gait.
> 
> Those circles will help, you and your mare when learning the canter and which lead to ask for.
> 
> Those circles will teach you about diagonals.
> 
> Then the circles will expand to include figure eights and serpentins.
> 
> Listen to your trainer and don't put the roof on before you have a foundation.
> 
> Relax and listen to YOUR TAINER.


This ^


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## bsms

Since I'm the person not fond of circles...

There are many ways of cracking the nut. There is no need to do a circle to teach inside leg & rein versus outside. You can teach that and learn it in ANY turn, including one of 60 degrees. If done on a trail, the horse can understand WHY, and a horse who understands is better than one who has memorized - just as a human is.

Doing a circle doesn't teach you as much about your seat as doing turns, of varying amounts. A tighter turn needs a different balance than a big turn. In some turns and speeds, the horse can stay vertical. In others, they need to dig in. And the best way to learn balance in turns is to simply DO turns. 

But those turns do not need to be 360 degree circles. Unless, of course, doing patterns for showing is your goal. Zig-zagging between the cactus can be a good way to teach the horse CHANGING directions, while it also has incentive to watch where it puts its feet. Doing the same in brush has the same effect. But doing it where the horse NEEDS to do it makes sense to the horse, while doing 20 laps of a 20m circle does not.

My horse, Bandit, arrived here using his feet wrong. It was tied to how he had been shod. He used his front left leg twisted about 30 degrees, and I didn't know it until we pulled the front shoes and spent enough time riding him on pavement to see the wear pattern. It took 6 months for his hoof to reshape based on the inside of the foot, and for his to start moving his left front leg straight.

He also was ridden, long and hard, at over 30% of his body weight. I don't like percentages, but once you get above 30%, it is hard work for the horse. So he braced his back like an I-beam, to protect himself.

Rehabilitating him hasn't meant lunging him in circles of various sizes. It has meant a lot of time in two point, so I'd be off his back. It has meant being very careful with the bit, so he could learn to trust me not to hurt his mouth. It has meant teaching him he can make a turn without falling into the turn with his inside shoulder, but there is no reason why that had to be done making 360 degree turns.

If you and your horse LIKE to do patterns, that is different! Do as many as you want! But I think too many people get locked in to the patterns, and forget that you can teach better movement ANYWHERE. 

And as a rider, being able to ride a 20m or 10 meter circle has no particular gain in my balance compared to riding turns of varying degrees, varying tightness, varying speeds. And personally, I don't think people learn a good seat by doing circles. I think they learn it by varying turns, varying speeds, and going up and down hills, and sometimes turning while going up and down hills.

So if you and your horse enjoy doing steady patterns - have at it! But if your horse is like mine, Fly will enjoy variety more. And you will develop better balance by riding over various turns and varying terrain than you will by doing circles on level ground. 

That sort of work is A way of teaching a horse to use its body better. It is A way of teaching a rider. But it is not the ONLY way to achieve that goal. So find a technique for learning that both you and your horse can enjoy. If that is circles and basic dressage work - fine! But you can get a good seat and ride a supple horse without doing 20 m circles. Your choice. And your instructor's, because there is no reason to pay an instructor unless you try to follow their advice!


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## Hoofpic

Two rides on my mare in 3 days, never saw this coming.

Now see if I took my outside trainers advice, I wouldnt have experienced what i did in these two rides. Im glad i did the second lesson relatively quickly from the first.

I said to my Riding coach that I can do 3 rides a week but i would like to start with twice a week for now and work up. She said to start with riding my mare two days a week and she feels i can handle 30mins on her which I did today I think. She said if things go well for my mare and I at twice a week, then keep it that way. We wont know how quickly things may progress and no point making a set plan now but instead go as times progresses.

So twice a week ill ride my mare and once a week with the outside trainer. This will really help give me time to work on the homework that my outside trainer gives me. I just cant see her twice a week, it doesnt give me enough time to do the homework in between lessons especially when she teaches me a new thing each lesson.

And ill be honest, im still disgruntled about yesterday. She really killed the mood for yesterdays lesson. Im paying her for her time and here she wants to go on about my weight being too much for my mare.


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## phantomhorse13

I think planning to ride your mare a couple times a week with your trainer is great! For the 3rd ride, I hope you will be riding the lesson horse? That way you still have a day you can work on just you.

When you speak to your outside trainer, go with your gut. I think dropping to once a week is still more than enough. As you said, Fly needs at least one off day and so do you!


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## sarahfromsc

Fly is a green horse. Hoofpic is a green rider. They are not ready for trails.

Bandit is not green correct? You have seven years riding on Hoofpic.

You tried lessons, and admitted the instructor sucked, so quit. Let Hoofpic take his lessons and ride the circles, figure eights, shallow and deep serpentins. He needs only to listen to the person he is paying, not a bunch of faceless people over the Internet.

This is his journal, his journey, his mare.

If in a few months he wants to quit because he thinks he is all that and a bag of chips, that is his right, and business. But, i will speak my mind and tell him circles are important. 

Where I have an advantage over you is I rode my early life sans lessons. Didn't start lessons until my late 40's. What I learned is how a horse can travel if taught correctly. And the joy of learning that, and the utter happiness of riding a horse who knows.

Very eye opening and humbling.

Watching his clip, he knows nothing, of inside/outside rein and leg, or anything else. And fly knows not much more. In fact at points during the clip it looked as if they headed into the walls. 

Eventually if he listens to his trainer and doesn't make excuses or let his ego rule, and his skill set grows, maybe they can set up 'cones of confusion', and/or hit the trails.

Hoofpic, my advice still stands, take what we say and discuss it with your trainer, but listen to her and you gem of a BO.


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## elle1959

As far as movement and stiffness, the more saddle time you get with a good instructor who can encourage you to open up in your hip region, the better this will get, and that will, in turn, improve your balance and, ultimately, your confidence. It takes a while so don't get discouraged. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> I think planning to ride your mare a couple times a week with your trainer is great! For the 3rd ride, I hope you will be riding the lesson horse? That way you still have a day you can work on just you.
> 
> When you speak to your outside trainer, go with your gut. I think dropping to once a week is still more than enough. As you said, Fly needs at least one off day and so do you!


I think two rides on my mare a week for now is a good start. My riding coach doesnt want me riding the lesson mare for the time being because she wants me to get used to my mare the best I can and just to focus on that. She says that right now, my time is best spent on my mare, not the lesson mare. I think thats a good idea because right now my plan is to get used to a 14.2hh horse, not a 15hh one that Ive been riding for months now.

I just spoke with my outside trainer. I explained to her that I find two lessons a week to be too much because it doesnt allow enough time for me to work on what I learned in each lesson on my own. Two lessons is a lot, like I said, the days come up a lot quicker than you realize. 

She understood and said it was a good idea to do one lesson a week right now. It is very important for me to still have days with my mare where we dont do anything, we will just hang out in the field, I wont ask of anything from her etc. At least one day of these a week is vital. Then I also need at least a day a week where I dont see her at all, where I spend my time reading my books, resetting my mind, etc.

I used to see my mare every single day when I first got her (For the first 4 months) but I find that I need at least one day a week where I dont see her so I can rejuvanate myself and it really does make a big difference for me.

With that being said, I will say that over the past month, I do not regret one single bit for having my outside trainer out twice a week. She has taught me so much over the past month, it really has benefited me in so many ways. Remember, my initial goal when reconnecting with her was so that I could have another set of eyes on me when I handle my mare. So once a week wouldnt have been very effective. But because she has taught me so much in the past month, Ive felt Ive made enough progress and gained enough confidence to only have her out once a week.


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## Golden Horse

sarahfromsc said:


> Fly is a green horse. Hoofpic is a green rider. They are not ready for trails.


One look at the video tells you that! Fly maybe fine with a experienced rider, Hoofpic would be fine on an experienced trail horse, but I would not send the two of them out of the arena for sometime yet. 





sarahfromsc said:


> Let Hoofpic take his lessons and ride the circles, figure eights, shallow and deep serpentins. He needs only to listen to the person he is paying, not a bunch of faceless people over the Internet.
> 
> This is his journal, his journey, his mare.


Absolutely, and his trainer appears to be knowledgeable and IS telling him the right thing. The last thing Hoofpic needs is for Fly to speed up with him and for him to inadvertently take a hard contact, she is already a little worried by the inconsistent contact, on a circle it is easier not to let her 'get away from him




sarahfromsc said:


> If in a few months he wants to quit because he thinks he is all that and a bag of chips, that is his right, and business. But, i will speak my mind and tell him circles are important.


Not to soon I hope, it looks like they have a little bit of a journey in front of them!





sarahfromsc said:


> Watching his clip, he knows nothing, of inside/outside rein and leg, or anything else. And fly knows not much more. In fact at points during the clip it looked as if they headed into the walls.
> 
> Eventually if he listens to his trainer and doesn't make excuses or let his ego rule, and his skill set grows, maybe they can set up 'cones of confusion', and/or hit the trails.
> 
> Hoofpic, my advice still stands, take what we say and discuss it with your trainer, but listen to her and you gem of a BO.


Yes yes and yes again


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## Rainaisabelle

What Sarah says is logical. Hoof pic is green so is the mare. I think he should listen to who he is paying, we can only say what we think but ultimately he should listen to his instructor. 

Now I really think you should get a lesson atleast once a fortnight on the lesson mare... I am doing the same after I finish my uni placement of riding my TB 4 days a week but getting a lesson once a fortnight on a lesson horse.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Dont have much time to chat, lesson is coming up but after some thinking im considering dropping my lesson time with the outside trainer to once a week and now i ride my mare 3 times a week.
> 
> She will be quite upset about it im sure and will probably go bonkers when she hears about this.
> 
> Cause even at 2 rides a week and 2 days with outside trainer, and i have to work on stuff that i learn from my outside trainer on my own. My mare still needs days off and what about the days we just hang out?


So she gets upset. Are you dating her?
See how easily your new best friend can turn on you? I think she cares more for easy money than you or your horse.


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Fly is a green horse. Hoofpic is a green rider. They are not ready for trails.


No we arent, but we will be one day. But this is so far down the road, its not even on the back of my mind.



> If in a few months he wants to quit because he thinks he is all that and a bag of chips, that is his right, and business. But, i will speak my mind and tell him circles are important.


Im seeing now how beneficial circles are. I know my riding coach is preaching it, circles, circles circles, bend, bend, bend, and I have full confidence in her leading the way. Afterall, she DID learn all her training from the BO. And the BO is the master of advice at the barn. 
The man knows so much, I just about see him as an encyclopedia. And its not just me, every single boarder there sees him the same way.



> Where I have an advantage over you is I rode my early life sans lessons. Didn't start lessons until my late 40's. What I learned is how a horse can travel if taught correctly. And the joy of learning that, and the utter happiness of riding a horse who knows.
> 
> Very eye opening and humbling.


WHat do you mean by this?



> Watching his clip, he knows nothing, of inside/outside rein and leg, or anything else. And fly knows not much more. In fact at points during the clip it looked as if they headed into the walls.


Well I wouldnt say that I know "nothing" of inside/outside rein and leg. 



> Eventually if he listens to his trainer and doesn't make excuses or let his ego rule, and his skill set grows, maybe they can set up 'cones of confusion', and/or hit the trails.
> 
> Hoofpic, my advice still stands, take what we say and discuss it with your trainer, but listen to her and you gem of a BO.


I am listening to my riding coach and BO, what makes you think Im not?

Ill be honest, I dont and have never mentioned anythign to either my BO or riding coach about any advice Ive gotten from here because I know for a fact (the riding coach more so) they simply dont care.


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## Hoofpic

I will mention that my outside trainer wants to see me as a rider and also so she can get a feel for what kind of style and logic my riding coach teaches. I promised her last week that I would get this video to her and I havent yet. I didnt want her to see my lesson on my mare from Friday but I will let her see the one from today. Personally, if it was me and she wants to see me ride for her very first time, I would much rather her see me on the lesson mare. But since I wont be riding her anytime soon, it means moot.

I wish I recorded my most recent lesson on the lesson mare so you guys could see what I was like on her and compare to how I was on my own mare this past Friday and as well as today (I will have the video up). I think it would have gone a long ways so you guys could see how I was on a lesson horse.

Another thing I should mention is that my outside trainer has no idea that i rode my mare again today and will be riding her twice a week from her on in. Obviously she didnt even approve of me getting on my mare this past Friday, so she will be totally against me riding my mare twice a week from here on in. She might flip out. I wont mention anything to her about it (I learned from last week, sometimes you're better off keeping your mouth shut). If she asks though, ill just be honest and tell her the truth.


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## natisha

Have the Parelli person watch your lesson in person. Be sure to record that interaction!


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> So she gets upset. Are you dating her?
> See how easily your new best friend can turn on you? I think she cares more for easy money than you or your horse.


I think thats a bit harsh.

I know that she doesnt care more about the money. She is one of the most passionate trainers Ive met and learned from. You can just see it in her facial expression when talking to her. She really does want the best partnership between her clients and their horses.


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## bsms

I've already said: "_And your instructor's, because there is no reason to pay an instructor unless you try to follow their advice!_"

But in western riding, there are no compulsory figures to learn, and you do not direct the horse thru the turns.

_"Watching his clip, he knows nothing, of inside/outside rein and leg, or anything else. And fly knows not much more. In fact at points during the clip it looked as if they headed into the walls._"

If Fly & Hoofpic bounce off a wall, they will figure it out.
_
"The last thing Hoofpic needs is for Fly to speed up with him and for him to inadvertently take a hard contact, she is already a little worried by the inconsistent contact, on a circle it is easier not to let her 'get away from him..._"

It isn't that hard. In western riding, contact is a "cue", not a perpetual state. Contact should be rare. And it is certainly Hoofpic's thread. I'm just encouraging Hoofpic to have a good time riding Fly, and not to worry about rules and 'compulsory figures' that do not apply to western riding.

This is English Riding:

_Riding a Circle

When riding on a circle the horse’s hind quarters must be guided and controlled by the rider’s legs; his forehand by the reins. The circumference of the circle is determined by the circle markers.

The rider’s inside leg, close behind the girth, activates the inside hind leg, helping to maintain the lateral bend and preventing the horse from falling into the circle. The rider’s outside leg should be positioned further behind the girth, controlling the quarters. The rider’s outside leg, together with the inside rein, should maintain the lateral bend and cause the outside hind leg to step further forward.

http://www.usdf.org/edudocs/training/basicexercises.pdf
_
It has nothing to do with western riding. In western riding, you cue with "_seat / leg / reins (if needed)_" - see, I did listen to my instructor! When you need a turn to the left, you push against the horse with your right leg. Then, if the horse doesn't neck rein, you use your left hand to cue with the reins. Use more for a tighter turn, less for a wider turn.

My first experiences in riding came in visiting people on ranches. I'd get 5 minutes of instruction, or less, then we'd go ride somewhere. Of course, that was with an experienced horse. After doing that, my college room mate - who now has a ranch and sold me "Trooper" - asked if I would be interested in a two day camping trip on horseback. I could use his green broke mare. I said yes, of course, and the green broke mare & I went on a two day trip in the Utah mountains. We had a few moments, but she was a good-hearted horse and my intentions were honorable, and we figured it out.

If Fly was a fire-breathing insane horse, I'd worry. But Fly looks like a pretty good horse. Green, but neither untrained nor mindless. So have fun on Fly, Hoofpick! Enjoy riding Fly. Work with your instructor, and Fly, and have fun. Teach Fly a good stop (your instructor can tell you how, or you can find some good videos on the subject on YouTube - I like Larry Trocha's stuff), teach Fly clear cues for turning, teach Fly neck reining, and have fun. And if you and your instructor and horse want to work on perfect circles, do so.


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## Hoofpic

Im rewatching my lesson from today and unfortunately, it didnt record the entire time I was on my mare. The camera can record up to 30mins, and from what I saw, I was on my mare for just over 30mins, Id say 35! So you missed the last 4mins where I was trotting my mare on 20 metre circles to her left (which is her strong side but my weak side). I balance much better going to my right than my left.

And like I was told by one of the trainers in the big clinic that I attended a couple weekends ago "Make your horses weakness, your strength". I think it was Parelli who said this. But this is true! If you make your horses weakness your strength, it will only benefit the both of you.

And you know what? I have no doubt that I can overcome my left side because when I first got on my lesson mare and my trainer got me to trot her at 20 metre circles. Guess what? I went through the exact same thing. I struggled more trotting to her left on a 20m circle but my coach kept making me do them over and over that I worked it out and Im fine on her now. So now, its just the matter of me doing it again on my own mare. Thankfully, going to the left is my mares strong side. 

What I love is that on Friday and today, my trainer hoped on my mare after I finished for about 2-3 mins, just to make sure to leave things on a good note. I think that is a sign of a very good coach.


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## sarahfromsc

bsms said:


> I've already said: "_And your instructor's, because there is no reason to pay an instructor unless you try to follow their advice!_"
> 
> But in western riding, there are no compulsory figures to learn, and you do not direct the horse thru the turns.
> 
> _"Watching his clip, he knows nothing, of inside/outside rein and leg, or anything else. And fly knows not much more. In fact at points during the clip it looked as if they headed into the walls._"
> 
> If Fly & Hoofpic bounce off a wall, they will figure it out.
> _
> "The last thing Hoofpic needs is for Fly to speed up with him and for him to inadvertently take a hard contact, she is already a little worried by the inconsistent contact, on a circle it is easier not to let her 'get away from him..._"
> 
> It isn't that hard. In western riding, contact is a "cue", not a perpetual state. Contact should be rare. And it is certainly Hoofpic's thread. I'm just encouraging Hoofpic to have a good time riding Fly, and not to worry about rules and 'compulsory figures' that do not apply to western riding.
> 
> This is English Riding:
> 
> _Riding a Circle
> 
> When riding on a circle the horse’s hind quarters must be guided and controlled by the rider’s legs; his forehand by the reins. The circumference of the circle is determined by the circle markers.
> 
> The rider’s inside leg, close behind the girth, activates the inside hind leg, helping to maintain the lateral bend and preventing the horse from falling into the circle. The rider’s outside leg should be positioned further behind the girth, controlling the quarters. The rider’s outside leg, together with the inside rein, should maintain the lateral bend and cause the outside hind leg to step further forward.
> 
> http://www.usdf.org/edudocs/training/basicexercises.pdf
> _
> It has nothing to do with western riding. In western riding, you cue with "_seat / leg / reins (if needed)_" - see, I did listen to my instructor! When you need a turn to the left, you push against the horse with your right leg. Then, if the horse doesn't neck rein, you use your left hand to cue with the reins. Use more for a tighter turn, less for a wider turn.
> 
> My first experiences in riding came in visiting people on ranches. I'd get 5 minutes of instruction, or less, then we'd go ride somewhere. Of course, that was with an experienced horse. After doing that, my college room mate - who now has a ranch and sold me "Trooper" - asked if I would be interested in a two day camping trip on horseback. I could use his green broke mare. I said yes, of course, and the green broke mare & I went on a two day trip in the Utah mountains. We had a few moments, but she was a good-hearted horse and my intentions were honorable, and we figured it out.
> 
> If Fly was a fire-breathing insane horse, I'd worry. But Fly looks like a pretty good horse. Green, but neither untrained nor mindless. So have fun on Fly, Hoofpick! Enjoy riding Fly. Work with your instructor, and Fly, and have fun. Teach Fly a good stop (your instructor can tell you how, or you can find some good videos on the subject on YouTube - I like Larry Trocha's stuff), teach Fly clear cues for turning, teach Fly neck reining, and have fun. And if you and your instructor and horse want to work on perfect circles, do so.


There are no patterns in western riding?

What about the barrel pattern?

Reining patterns?

Now we even have western dressage.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I think thats a bit harsh.
> 
> I know that she doesnt care more about the money. She is one of the most passionate trainers Ive met and learned from. You can just see it in her facial expression when talking to her. She really does want the best partnership between her clients and their horses.


 She's the one who killed the mood for riding, she thinks your mare isn't right for you, she's the one you thought would go bonkers, she's the one who almost prevented you from having a good ride on your horse, she's the one who said your horse wasn't good enough to ride yet, she's the one you're hesitant to show your riding videos to...and I'm harsh?


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## DraftyAiresMum

BSMS, I know you're trying to be helpful, but watching Hoofpic's video, I think you're telling him to go out and run a 5K before he can walk...because it worked for you. 

As you can see, he's riding with contact. His mare is super green and doesn't neck rein. That's not going to change any time soon. You can ride in a western saddle with contact. People with GREEN HORSES (like Hoofpic's mare) ride with contact all the time because the horse doesn't know all the more subtle cues required for neck reining. 

Hoofpic's instructor obviously wants him riding with contact. Telling him that western riders don't ride with contact is counter-productive. You're essentially telling him that his instructor is wrong and you know more because you happened to get two very forgiving green horses who were able to figure out what you wanted of them.


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## Hoofpic

I found a very valuable piece of info last night. I felt that I needed to know exactly how many rides Fly has had on her from the previous owner, so as crazy as this sounds, I called her...last night to ask her. She seemed okay hearing from me. 

She said she put on about 40 rides total on Fly in the 2 years and 3 months owning her. She didnt ride her for about 6 to 8 months after getting her because she did groundwork with her. And she didnt ride her in the winters because they didnt have an arena and it was too icey. So add the 18 that my riding coach put on last fall and that brings it up to about 60 to date.


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## Golden Horse

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic's instructor obviously wants him riding with contact. Telling him that western riders don't ride with contact is counter-productive. You're essentially telling him that his instructor is wrong and you know more because you happened to get two very forgiving green horses who were able to figure out what you wanted of them.


Exactly, I would like this post many times if I could, I would go further, having watched the video I consider it irresponsible to be suggesting that he does anything other than his instructor is telling him. 

But the great thing is that Hoofpic REALLY wants to learn, he wants to become the best rider he can be, he wants to do the best for Fly that he can, and he is well aware that he needs help to achieve that, so I think he will take the time to learn what he needs to.


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## bsms

DraftyAiresMum said:


> ...As you can see, he's riding with contact. His mare is super green and doesn't neck rein. That's not going to change any time soon. You can ride in a western saddle with contact. People with GREEN HORSES (like Hoofpic's mare) ride with contact all the time because the horse doesn't know all the more subtle cues required for neck reining.
> 
> Hoofpic's instructor obviously wants him riding with contact. Telling him that western riders don't ride with contact is counter-productive. You're essentially telling him that his instructor is wrong and you know more because you happened to get two very forgiving green horses who were able to figure out what you wanted of them.


No. Western riding and constant contact do NOT go together. It isn't just a different saddle. It is a different philosophy of riding. If the instructor wants Hoofpick to ride with constant contact, then that is pretty odd - but go ahead and do it since _"there is no reason to pay an instructor unless you try to follow their advice!_"

There is no need for constant contact with a green western horse. Heck, according to the lady who later trained her, MIA was not just 'green' when I got her, but probably untrained. As in "no rides", according to the best guess of a professional trainer. 

I had a chance once to talk to a professional guitar player. I asked him if he found it a tough instrument to learn. "Well", he replied, "*It took me 30 minutes to learn to strum a few chords, but I'll die before I master the guitar!*" That is a good summary of western riding. Learning to ride well with almost no contact can take a lifetime. But riding western well enough "to strum a few chords"?


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Have the Parelli person watch your lesson in person. Be sure to record that interaction!


The outside trainer did ask me to politely ask my riding coach if she would be okay if she could sit in on our lesson. I didnt even consider doing this because I know it wouldnt be okay with my riding coach (and most likely my BO as well) and it comes across as borderline breaching. Usually trainers dont feel comfortable with other trainers watching and observing them if they dont know them, who they are as a person and what their motive is.

BO already made an exception for me in letting me bring in an outside trainer and on top, even lets me use the arena if its free at no charge. Usually, if you use the arena often you should be renting usage of it from the BO. So I didnt want to push too many buttons and ask for too much too soon.

Exactly 3 weeks ago from today, I was seriously considering stopping services with my riding coach and have my outside trainer teach me riding on my mare. But that just wouldnt work, it would be too inconvenient with making sure the arena is free to use (and my riding coach uses it for 60-80% of the week). PLUS I would be very hesistant in asking my BO if he would be okay with this (Im almost certain he wouldnt be), so I didnt want to ask. He runs a business and with his barn being a lesson riding school for anyone to come and ride thier lesson horses, obviously my riding coach is his assistant and helps him bring in the money. Well if I bring in an outside trainer and shes seen in the barn, arena multiple times throughout the week by others, boarders, customers, etc...I would think it would make the BO feel awkward. 

Lately, Ive even felt bad for using his arena with my outside trainer twice a week and for free. But now I have it cut back to once a week, so that will be better. 

So you ask myself, why am I still using my current riding coach for my riding? Because I've been having success with her over the past 7 months and again, its the whole saying "If it aint broke, dont fix it". PLUS, I do really think she is a very good riding coach. So just keep things as is.

My outside trainer is only temporary. When I say temporary, it could be 6 months, it could be a year or two years. Unless she does something that really makes me upset or brings up red flags, I see her as a long term mentor. Over time, as I make more and more significant progress in my learning as a horseman, I will cut my lessons back with her more and more. Eventually, I will taper off to once every two weeks, then once a month.


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## DraftyAiresMum

To ride without contact, one must first learn to ride with contact. I learned that the hard way because I learned backward. I learned to ride with contact after I learned to ride without. 

Curious...have you EVER seen any of the trainers you post videos from off YouTube NOT ride with contact on a green horse? 

Once again, you must walk before you can run. Even your guy who plays guitar had to learn the fingerings to strum those few chords first. That's what Hoofpic is doing: learning the fingerings, so to speak. It has NOTHING to do with western riding or any specific discipline. It has everything to do with having a SOLID FOUNDATION. It just happens that Hoofpic is more comfortable in a western saddle.


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## Rainaisabelle

I think the best thing to do here is just listen to your instructor.


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## Hoofpic

When I took her saddle and pad off after todays lesson, I was brushing her and I noticed everywhere on her back, topline, barrel was dry but this one spot (on both sides). Is this normal to have sweat here?


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## Hoofpic

I forgot to mention that the larger stirrups made a HUGE difference today! Even my coach immediately commented and noticed. She was glad I picked them up right away. I cant tell you how much better and more comfortable I felt in the saddle today and I felt it right away.

And my new joined reins? Guess what?! I didnt have any problem as far as finding them too short. I still had slack between where my hands would fall, so that means that the ones I used on Friday were most likely 7" and mine now are 8".

Here is my biggest struggle (and I know my coach helps me with this all the time during the lessons but I do eventually have to get with the times).

I never know how much slack I should have in the reins. So that I dont have too much slack so that it has no effectiveness, but also that I dont have not enough and cause pulling. I would really like to get this down pat.

My BO audited again today, but this time from the viewing area. He said to me on Friday that he felt I could have been more nervous knowing that he was watching me from the side of the arena. Im worried that he is concerned about whether or not I can ride my mare or that he has any doubt about me as a rider. If so, I want to prove him wrong. I dont mind him watching but I will admit, it does make me a bit more on edge because I know the wealth of information that this man knows. He can spot things from a mile away that many wont pick up on, and that comes from his many years of experience. He taught all his kids, he taught my current riding coach.

Now, Im sure many of you are wondering why he is watching in on my lessons with my mare, when he did only from time on time when I rode the lesson mare but not for full lessons. Well that is because he cares. And he cares enough to obviously be concerned about certain things. Probably more so about my mare than me, but he obviously cares about the current training level of his boarders and their horses.

Remember when I first moved to this barn? The first time my coach rode my mare, guess what. My BO watched...the entire thing.


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## Hoofpic

Sorry a bit OT, but if anyone wants to read...its a good read.

BO is quite upset at one of the boarders. Now them two have a really good relationship but he obviously doesnt like certain things she does. THis is one of the boarders who I share my stall with to store our stuff in. Her and I have gotten to know each other quite well over the past few months and we get a long really well. We always chat.

She is the boarder who has the 2 year old colt. I cant say that she is the most popular person at the barn. Shes often been told by other boarders that this colt is spoiled, is a brat, needs groundwork (this I do agree with). Yes this is the same colt who jumped his stall, not once, not twice but three times in a month.

BO is quite upset because she lets him get away with far too much stuff and I dont blame him because this is very much true. She doesnt do any training with him, she comes out to see him everyday, often twice a day on weekends but she only comes to feed him grain, hand graze him and sometimes takes him for walks (which end up short because they turn into hand grazing buffets). 

Like I said the BO is the best observant at the barn so he knows her very well. I often observe her as well so I see whats going on. I could be out in my mares field hanging out and I will observe her across the field since her horses herd is just across the fence. 

When she leads him, he will constantly dive his head for grass. She lets him get away with it. Then she will pull and pull on the lead and he refuses to listen. She she pulls and pulls and still nothing. This instantly reminded me of the rule to not nag but escalate. Nagging just annoys the horse and it is completely ineffective. 

So when she finally gets his head up, then carry on leading and then he wil do it again. She will then this time just give up and ask him what hes doing but she will let him dictate how long he gets to eat grass for. So she stands there as long as he wants to eat and then will try again to get his head to come up.

I was talking with the BO a couple weeks back and he was quite disturbed about this, seeing how he said that she cannot lead her horse past 5ft without him diving for grass and he is only 2 years old, basically the message that he is getting is, every time he has that halter on, he gets to eat grass and eat as much as he wants, when he wants and where he wants. He is calling all the shots.

Which is true. Today I ran into her. Sometimes I can see her 4 or 5 times in a week, sometimes I see her once a week. Today, I was putting my mare back in the field and hanging out. She halters him, takes him out of the field and as soon as they get out, his head dives for the grass. She lets him while she continues to do up the chain on the gate. When shes done, she tells him to stop, pulls his head and they go eat his grain etc...after she hand grazes him, and then when she wants to lead him back in the field, he wont listen. I saw him stop 4 or 5 times in what was no more than a 30ft distance reaching for grass. Each time, she would let him, then she would pull on the lead and he wouldnt listen. So she kept tugging and tugging until his head came up.

Another thing that she does all the time and it drives my BO nuts is that she is always coming to the barn with buckets and pails or bags of food. This drives my riding coach nuts as well. Ive picked up over the months that my riding trainer and this boarder arent exactly fond of each other.

Watermelon, apples, carrots, stud muffins etc. Her and another boarder both have a rule where their horse gets a treat every single time they go out to see their horse. Not once, not twice but multiple times. They stand tied, they get a treat. They get let go in the field, they get a treat. Treats while being brushed. 

Like I said I chat a lot with the boarders (pretty much all of them) and as I do, I observe them and their horse. I learn a lot. So guess what now? Of course the horse will come to expect a treat each time. This drives the BO nuts. He knows I treat my mare on occasion but not everyday and he says thats good. On occasion is fine, not everyday. But I dont know if you would really consider me treating my mare cause what I always do is always put the food in a small feed pan and she eats out of it. If I do this, I will only do it at certain times, like after a lesson or after shes been worked. 

So this boarder, since she often brings treats to the barn. She will just give treats like crazy to her horse and others in the herd. She doesnt treat my mare without asking, which is good! Everyday, he gets 3-4lbs of grain, a few stud muffins that she makes, lots and lots of hand grazing and other treats like watermelon, cucumbers, cookies, nuggets etc lol.


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## ChristineNJ

:runninghorse2:Yeaaaaa! Glad you finally got on your horse!!:runninghorse2:


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Sorry a bit OT, but if anyone wants to read...its a good read.
> 
> BO is quite upset at one of the boarders. Now them two have a really good relationship but he obviously doesnt like certain things she does. THis is one of the boarders who I share my stall with to store our stuff in. Her and I have gotten to know each other quite well over the past few months and we get a long really well. We always chat.
> 
> She is the boarder who has the 2 year old colt. I cant say that she is the most popular person at the barn. Shes often been told by other boarders that this colt is spoiled, is a brat, needs groundwork (this I do agree with). Yes this is the same colt who jumped his stall, not once, not twice but three times in a month.
> 
> BO is quite upset because she lets him get away with far too much stuff and I dont blame him because this is very much true. She doesnt do any training with him, she comes out to see him everyday, often twice a day on weekends but she only comes to feed him grain, hand graze him and sometimes takes him for walks (which end up short because they turn into hand grazing buffets).
> 
> Like I said the BO is the best observant at the barn so he knows her very well. I often observe her as well so I see whats going on. I could be out in my mares field hanging out and I will observe her across the field since her horses herd is just across the fence.
> 
> When she leads him, he will constantly dive his head for grass. She lets him get away with it. Then she will pull and pull on the lead and he refuses to listen. She she pulls and pulls and still nothing. This instantly reminded me of the rule to not nag but escalate. Nagging just annoys the horse and it is completely ineffective.
> 
> So when she finally gets his head up, then carry on leading and then he wil do it again. She will then this time just give up and ask him what hes doing but she will let him dictate how long he gets to eat grass for. So she stands there as long as he wants to eat and then will try again to get his head to come up.
> 
> I was talking with the BO a couple weeks back and he was quite disturbed about this, seeing how he said that she cannot lead her horse past 5ft without him diving for grass and he is only 2 years old, basically the message that he is getting is, every time he has that halter on, he gets to eat grass and eat as much as he wants, when he wants and where he wants. He is calling all the shots.
> 
> Which is true. Today I ran into her. Sometimes I can see her 4 or 5 times in a week, sometimes I see her once a week. Today, I was putting my mare back in the field and hanging out. She halters him, takes him out of the field and as soon as they get out, his head dives for the grass. She lets him while she continues to do up the chain on the gate. When shes done, she tells him to stop, pulls his head and they go eat his grain etc...after she hand grazes him, and then when she wants to lead him back in the field, he wont listen. I saw him stop 4 or 5 times in what was no more than a 30ft distance reaching for grass. Each time, she would let him, then she would pull on the lead and he wouldnt listen. So she kept tugging and tugging until his head came up.
> 
> Another thing that she does all the time and it drives my BO nuts is that she is always coming to the barn with buckets and pails or bags of food. This drives my riding coach nuts as well. Ive picked up over the months that my riding trainer and this boarder arent exactly fond of each other.
> 
> Watermelon, apples, carrots, stud muffins etc. Her and another boarder both have a rule where their horse gets a treat every single time they go out to see their horse. Not once, not twice but multiple times. They stand tied, they get a treat. They get let go in the field, they get a treat. Treats while being brushed.
> 
> Like I said I chat a lot with the boarders (pretty much all of them) and as I do, I observe them and their horse. I learn a lot. So guess what now? Of course the horse will come to expect a treat each time. This drives the BO nuts. He knows I treat my mare on occasion but not everyday and he says thats good. On occasion is fine, not everyday. But I dont know if you would really consider me treating my mare cause what I always do is always put the food in a small feed pan and she eats out of it. If I do this, I will only do it at certain times, like after a lesson or after shes been worked.
> 
> So this boarder, since she often brings treats to the barn. She will just give treats like crazy to her horse and others in the herd. She doesnt treat my mare without asking, which is good! Everyday, he gets 3-4lbs of grain, a few stud muffins that she makes, lots and lots of hand grazing and other treats like watermelon, cucumbers, cookies, nuggets etc lol.


So what? It's her horse. She can make him a pushy brat if she wants. How does that effect you or the BO?
I'm a barn owner & I don't tell the boarders what to do unless they have their horse in training or ask for help. My job is to take care of their horses, provide a safe place for them to live, not criticize what they do.
Talking behind someone's back seldom turns out well. 

I give treats...by hand!!! No horse here is pushy for treats.


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## tinyliny

If you screw around too much with thie BO and ask him to tolerate much more, he is going to throw up his hands and maybe throw you out of his training program .

The lesson I watched showed a trainer that seemed about appropriate for what you need right now. Bird it the hand right there, so don't go throwing that away for thT outside trainer, who is a bird in the bush.


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## gottatrot

Hoofpic,

When horses are getting into shape they often sweat in funny places. You might see a small spot on one hindquarter or shoulder, or one side of the neck. 

My husband rides horses in cargo shorts. I've warned him and told him his legs will rub raw and it will hurt. Yet he keeps doing it and somehow he never gets sores and says it's comfortable. When I've tried it I rubbed holes into my leg. So you could try wearing shorts if you want, you never know if it will work or not.

By the way, you're doing great. A lot of times when an instructor is having you do smaller circles around them it's not because of any lofty ideals of teaching your horse balance and inside/outside rein. It's because they can keep an eye on what you're doing more easily, and also you can hear them talk better. During some of my first lessons, I asked if I could go down the length of the arena and my instructor was fine with it. It was just a convenience thing for her, and she didn't care either way very much. Pretty good you're working on posting too.

Fly seems like a very nice horse. I agree it can be an adjustment going from one size of horse to another. I've never found that horses ride the same. Some horses have a more forward or more backward center of gravity, differently shaped barrels which put your leg on differently, and quite different gaits which may mean your stirrup length might need to change.

I rode with "zombie arms" when I was a teen. I'd straight-arm cue the horse. Later I learned that my arm between the shoulder and elbow should stay in line with my torso. However, that's difficult to do until you've had some practice lengthening and shortening the reins easily. I believe learning to slide your hands up and down to constantly change the rein length is a necessary skill for riding. 

Comments for the discussion: Horses and riders can be started out with contact or without. Riding with contact is a style of cueing, not a basic building block that everyone must learn. I prefer teaching new riders without contact and work on getting them an independent seat before working with the horse's mouth or face. Horses can also be started on a loose rein and taught with a cue and release method going back to loose rein. That is my preferred method for starting nowadays.

Hoofpic doesn't apparently have the type of trainer that is going to send him out on trails right away. However, if that is what he wanted to do, it would be quite possible for him and his horse to go outside on trails and learn out there too. I know a couple trainers who take both green horses and green riders out for lessons on trails rather than in arenas. What makes it safe is having the basics taught to the horse (turning, stopping, basic gaits) and then having an experienced teacher and steady companion horse to go along as mentors. I've done it myself, and worst case the green horse acts up a bit and we switch horses for a little while, I show the green rider how I would handle the situation, and then we trade back when the green horse feels calm again. You don't take a horse with less than 30 rides or hot horse out with a green rider, but a horse with basics and good temperament is capable of learning out on the trail with his rider.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Sorry a bit OT, but if anyone wants to read...its a good read.
> 
> BO is quite upset at one of the boarders. Now them two have a really good relationship but he obviously doesnt like certain things she does. THis is one of the boarders who I share my stall with to store our stuff in. Her and I have gotten to know each other quite well over the past few months and we get a long really well. We always chat.
> 
> She is the boarder who has the 2 year old colt. I cant say that she is the most popular person at the barn. Shes often been told by other boarders that this colt is spoiled, is a brat, needs groundwork (this I do agree with). Yes this is the same colt who jumped his stall, not once, not twice but three times in a month.
> 
> BO is quite upset because she lets him get away with far too much stuff and I dont blame him because this is very much true. She doesnt do any training with him, she comes out to see him everyday, often twice a day on weekends but she only comes to feed him grain, hand graze him and sometimes takes him for walks (which end up short because they turn into hand grazing buffets).
> 
> Like I said the BO is the best observant at the barn so he knows her very well. I often observe her as well so I see whats going on. I could be out in my mares field hanging out and I will observe her across the field since her horses herd is just across the fence.
> 
> When she leads him, he will constantly dive his head for grass. She lets him get away with it. Then she will pull and pull on the lead and he refuses to listen. She she pulls and pulls and still nothing. This instantly reminded me of the rule to not nag but escalate. Nagging just annoys the horse and it is completely ineffective.
> 
> So when she finally gets his head up, then carry on leading and then he wil do it again. She will then this time just give up and ask him what hes doing but she will let him dictate how long he gets to eat grass for. So she stands there as long as he wants to eat and then will try again to get his head to come up.
> 
> I was talking with the BO a couple weeks back and he was quite disturbed about this, seeing how he said that she cannot lead her horse past 5ft without him diving for grass and he is only 2 years old, basically the message that he is getting is, every time he has that halter on, he gets to eat grass and eat as much as he wants, when he wants and where he wants. He is calling all the shots.
> 
> Which is true. Today I ran into her. Sometimes I can see her 4 or 5 times in a week, sometimes I see her once a week. Today, I was putting my mare back in the field and hanging out. She halters him, takes him out of the field and as soon as they get out, his head dives for the grass. She lets him while she continues to do up the chain on the gate. When shes done, she tells him to stop, pulls his head and they go eat his grain etc...after she hand grazes him, and then when she wants to lead him back in the field, he wont listen. I saw him stop 4 or 5 times in what was no more than a 30ft distance reaching for grass. Each time, she would let him, then she would pull on the lead and he wouldnt listen. So she kept tugging and tugging until his head came up.
> 
> Another thing that she does all the time and it drives my BO nuts is that she is always coming to the barn with buckets and pails or bags of food. This drives my riding coach nuts as well. Ive picked up over the months that my riding trainer and this boarder arent exactly fond of each other.
> 
> Watermelon, apples, carrots, stud muffins etc. Her and another boarder both have a rule where their horse gets a treat every single time they go out to see their horse. Not once, not twice but multiple times. They stand tied, they get a treat. They get let go in the field, they get a treat. Treats while being brushed.
> 
> Like I said I chat a lot with the boarders (pretty much all of them) and as I do, I observe them and their horse. I learn a lot. So guess what now? Of course the horse will come to expect a treat each time. This drives the BO nuts. He knows I treat my mare on occasion but not everyday and he says thats good. On occasion is fine, not everyday. But I dont know if you would really consider me treating my mare cause what I always do is always put the food in a small feed pan and she eats out of it. If I do this, I will only do it at certain times, like after a lesson or after shes been worked.
> 
> So this boarder, since she often brings treats to the barn. She will just give treats like crazy to her horse and others in the herd. She doesnt treat my mare without asking, which is good! Everyday, he gets 3-4lbs of grain, a few stud muffins that she makes, lots and lots of hand grazing and other treats like watermelon, cucumbers, cookies, nuggets etc lol.


were you not in these very shoes a few short months ago?? You are becoming a horse expert very quickly.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> . But I know she will ask the next time she comes out on what the results are.
> 
> She's brought this up with me many times already, I just think she needs to back off already. I get her point.


 It is none of her ****ed business and I would tell her that quick, fast, and in a god****ed hurry. 
You are tall, your horse is short big flipping deal.


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## Hoofpic

Sundays ride is up for viewing


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Sorry a bit OT, but if anyone wants to read...its a good read.


Well I read it, and it isn't a good read, it is barn drama by internet.......none of your business what anyone else does, this is gossip nothing more.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Golden Horse said:


> Well I read it, and it isn't a good read, it is barn drama by internet.......none of your business what anyone else does, this is gossip nothing more.


:iagree:

Ever heard of "Nunya"? As in "Nunya business"? Unless you're handling the horse on a regular basis, it's none of your business how she handles her horse. If the BO complains to you about it, just politely change the subject.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> So what? It's her horse. She can make him a pushy brat if she wants. How does that effect you or the BO?
> I'm a barn owner & I don't tell the boarders what to do unless they have their horse in training or ask for help. My job is to take care of their horses, provide a safe place for them to live, not criticize what they do.
> Talking behind someone's back seldom turns out well.
> 
> I give treats...by hand!!! No horse here is pushy for treats.


I just dont like seeing the BO upset thats all. It doesnt affect me, but he obviously cares an awful lot about every horse on his property regardless if its his.



greentree said:


> were you not in these very shoes a few short months ago?? You are becoming a horse expert very quickly.


I was never implying that I was an expert.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> If you screw around too much with thie BO and ask him to tolerate much more, he is going to throw up his hands and maybe throw you out of his training program .
> 
> The lesson I watched showed a trainer that seemed about appropriate for what you need right now. Bird it the hand right there, so don't go throwing that away for thT outside trainer, who is a bird in the bush.


And thats why I never felt comfortable asking my riding coach and BO if it would be okay for my outside trainer to sit in on our lesson or if I could use her for my riding for now on. Its asking for too much. Im glad I didnt do either, so good judgement on my part. He has already allowed me to bring in an outside trainer to begin with and I left it at that.


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## egrogan

She really is a cute little horse. 

I agree with those who have said it's good to experience riding different horses when you can. They do challenge your balance and body in different ways. I regret that I don't have more time to ride different horses- riding only my own horse definitely makes me a worse rider. 

Since when you're riding your mare, you're training her as much as you're training yourself, I think you will find it very helpful to have a lesson on a horse that allows you to focus on only YOU. 

And I am a huge fan of lunge lessons, particularly given where you are developmentally in your riding.


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## ChristineNJ

[













Another thing I should mention is that my outside trainer has no idea that i rode my mare again today and will be riding her twice a week from her on in. Obviously she didnt even approve of me getting on my mare this past Friday, so she will be totally against me riding my mare twice a week from here on in. She might flip out. I wont mention anything to her about it (I learned from last week, sometimes you're better off keeping your mouth shut). If she asks though, ill just be honest and tell her the truth.[/QUOTE]

I would ditch that "outside trainer" ASAP........ She is negative influence and a big waste of money. Your trainer looks like a good one and you will learn more from her!! :wink:


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## Hoofpic

ChristineNJ said:


> I would ditch that "outside trainer" ASAP........ She is negative influence and a big waste of money. Your trainer looks like a good one and you will learn more from her!! :wink:


I just think my outside trainer has way too high expectations when it comes to a horses groundwork before riding them. 

If I ask myself, are my mare and I further ahead today after I rode her twice the past 3 days or are we behind? Because from what my outside trainer was telling me, if I rode her, it would hurt our partnership and set us back. There is no doubt in my mind that my mare and I are further ahead today than last week. It may be a little further ahead but its still something. Its a step in the right direction for the both of us.

I bet I could show this video from Sunday to my outside trainer and she would say "Nope, you two didnt achieve anything".

After some thinking, I will still show the outside trainer the video to my 2nd lesson so she can get a general assessment of me as a rider. Its only fair that she knows and has a general idea. 

Im doing this because its only fair to her to know. But if shes going to be negative about it, then that will be the end of it.

Surprisingly she is actually a very upbeat and positive trainer, its just that she is just so much of a perfectionist when it comes to groundwork and that IMO whole heartedly has to do with the Parelli method.

She actually reminds me a lot of one of my previous trainers that I used for groundwork for about 2 months while at the old barn. He was so insistant that his program made by him was needed for every horse to know before riding them. This included 8 or 9 different ways to lunge a horse, 9 or 10 different ways to back a horse up, 3 or 4 different ways to sidepass etc. He just drilled execersize after execersize after execersize. He kept telling me that EVERY SINGLE task in his program had to be perfected before getting on that horse or it will show in the saddle.


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## KigerQueen

I have done 5 years worth of ground work with my arab. i can send her over anything though anything and make her lunge figure 8s infront of me all with no tack, halter or lead on her and nothing in my hands (its all a fun game to her). and she has nearly killed me under saddle several times and is not fun to ride. The paint i am riding did not know how to lunge 3 months ago and we are now working on giving to the bit, leg yealds and slowly collecting him in 4 lessons with my current trainer. i cant send this horse over anything, he can change direction and stop lunging and relaz while lunging. we have done some side reins on him but thats before i ride to get him to understand whats about to come. thats it. ground work is important but not THAT important. If the horse is ready to be backed and understand how to stop, turn and speed up and slow down and is not terrified of its own shadow its ready to start riding. ground work only translates soo much to under saddle.

a bit about my trainer. she has about 20 rides on her 2 year old Hanoverian tb filly. she is 75 and dose only enough ground work that the horse dose not try ti kill her. she taught pony club for 37 years and has been training for longer. 

in other words ditch the outside trainer. spend them money and time WITH your mare!


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## 6gun Kid

Okay I am going to be very blunt, ditch the outside trainer. You don't need her, or her negativity, nor do you need endless ground work. You are riding, dude, you have done enough groundwork. Will you need to continue to reinforce it? Yes. But to spend a whole day with your horse on groundwork with a _trainer_, after you are in the saddle on a regular basis, totally unnecessary.
Blunt point number 2, get out of your danged head! Quit setting goals, quit videotaping every lesson and poring over it looking for faults. By setting goals, you stressing yourself to achieve things that at this point, quite simply aren't that important, and don't think for a second your mare wont pick up on the stress and will then become stressed herself.
Go buy a set 9 foot reins, figure out where you want them, tie them together and quit fussing about them. 
Again with the blunt, I didn't think you would get to where you are right now by reading your posts from just 2 weeks ago. You have made big strides but you aren't done yet. Don't take all the fun out of your journey by overcomplicating things


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## greentree

Is the moon falling? I thought she hung it......


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## Golden Horse

Many likes for @6gun Kid ,


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## DraftyAiresMum

My take on Parelli disciples is this...

They are fanatical about groundwork, yet Parelli horses are some of the rudest, most difficult-to-handle horses I've ever had the displeasure of working with. 

There was a lady at my old barn who had a 20-something-year-old Arab gelding who had gone through almost the highest level of Parelli you can (no idea the levels, but she was very proud of his certificates and such and kept them posted on his stall door :icon_rolleyes: ). He was one of the rudest horses I have EVER dealt with. I had gone out to the turnout to grab my gelding and the "herd leader" was being a butt and chasing my gelding, this Arab gelding, and another boarder's gelding all over the place. The three geldings who were being chased somehow end up freight-training right toward me as I stood about fifteen feed inside the (one acre) turnout. My gelding and the other boarder's gelding peeled off and gave me a wide berth when they saw me (at least fifteen feet, if not more). This Parelli gelding came STRAIGHT FOR ME, even though there was PLENTY of room to either side for him to dodge me. If I hadn't stepped out of the way at the last second, he would have run me completely over. His owner saw and yelled from the barn (which was almost 100ft away) "Oh, he's trying to play the Circle Game with you! Isn't that neat?" No, crazy lady. He's trying to run me over.

We also had two other boarders who did "Parelli" training with their Arabs (former show Arabs from Scottsdale, so they were nuts to begin with). The lady was out in the arena with her mare, trying to play the YoYo Game and the horse freaked out and ran her over. Funny thing, 'cuz out on a trail ride with her boyfriend who had the other psycho, former-show Arab who was Parelli-trained, her horse flipped out for literally no reason and she ended up having to be air-lifted to the hospital.

My old gelding was trained using "Parelli" and he had horrible manners. He'd climb up your shoulder if you let him and tried to spook to get out of anything resembling work. It took a firm hand and almost a year before he was manageable for anyone but me.

Then there's me over here with my 17hh gelding who I bought as a 15hh, 1200lbs barely-handled 2yo stud colt who didn't know how to lead or anything, and who was leading, lunging, had the best manners at the barn, and was under saddle within three months of me buying him. Didn't any specific training method, just picked and chose from the ones I liked and figured out what worked for us (mainly Clinton Anderson and Chris Cox, though).


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## Hoofpic

KigerQueen said:


> I have done 5 years worth of ground work with my arab. i can send her over anything though anything and make her lunge figure 8s infront of me all with no tack, halter or lead on her and nothing in my hands (its all a fun game to her). and she has nearly killed me under saddle several times and is not fun to ride. The paint i am riding did not know how to lunge 3 months ago and we are now working on giving to the bit, leg yealds and slowly collecting him in 4 lessons with my current trainer. i cant send this horse over anything, he can change direction and stop lunging and relaz while lunging. we have done some side reins on him but thats before i ride to get him to understand whats about to come. thats it. ground work is important but not THAT important. If the horse is ready to be backed and understand how to stop, turn and speed up and slow down and is not terrified of its own shadow its ready to start riding. ground work only translates soo much to under saddle.
> 
> a bit about my trainer. she has about 20 rides on her 2 year old Hanoverian tb filly. she is 75 and dose only enough ground work that the horse dose not try ti kill her. she taught pony club for 37 years and has been training for longer.
> 
> in other words ditch the outside trainer. spend them money and time WITH your mare!


Im not denying your facts or ignoring your advice, but what my outside trainer can and will teach me is the liberty work. This is her bread and butter and because liberty is one of my greatest interests, this is why I reconnected with her.


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## greentree

Ok, this has bee my definition of NH for some time......giving people something to do who are afraid to ride. This "trainer" seems to bear that out.

I do not remember seeing an answer to my previous question....is this the same one that was SO perfect?


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## KigerQueen

^ YES! So much YES! EVERY parelli horse i have met has injured their owner. i know only one person who trains parelli who turns out good horses because she combines the methods with others. she has a firm yet kind hand. if a horse bites its going to get hit and hit HARD! if it miss behaves he will REGRET IT! she also yous t touch and thats fascinating to watch. She will take a while doing ground work but its usually once we week because she is busy and has no dead line but she want to get on the horse sooner than later. 

Dont buy into one method too much. every method dose NOT work for every horse! EVER. Clinton Anderson works AMAZING for my arab but turned out paint into a flighty stressed nuttjob. traditional English dressage ground work and just getting on him calmed him down and he is now a relaxed happy horse. the English ground work would drive my arab nuts.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Im not denying your facts or ignoring your advice, but what my outside trainer can and will teach me is the liberty work. This is her bread and butter and because liberty is one of my greatest interests, this is why I reconnected with her.


I think we get that, but I think we're also trying to say that there's better avenues for learning liberty than Parelli. Ones that won't make your horse a neurotic, bored mess. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Okay I am going to be very blunt, ditch the outside trainer. You don't need her, or her negativity, nor do you need endless ground work. You are riding, dude, you have done enough groundwork. Will you need to continue to reinforce it? Yes. But to spend a whole day with your horse on groundwork with a _trainer_, after you are in the saddle on a regular basis, totally unnecessary.
> Blunt point number 2, get out of your danged head! Quit setting goals, quit videotaping every lesson and poring over it looking for faults. By setting goals, you stressing yourself to achieve things that at this point, quite simply aren't that important, and don't think for a second your mare wont pick up on the stress and will then become stressed herself.
> Go buy a set 9 foot reins, figure out where you want them, tie them together and quit fussing about them.
> Again with the blunt, I didn't think you would get to where you are right now by reading your posts from just 2 weeks ago. You have made big strides but you aren't done yet. Don't take all the fun out of your journey by overcomplicating things


One thing about the outside trainer is that (remember), when I got back in touch with her, it was because I wanted a mentor, someone to watch and observe me when handling my mare. And she's done just that. 

She's taught me a lot over the past month. I still think I will benefit learning from her, but right now riding is the #1 priority for my mare and I (I just wont tell her this). The outside trainer is second. 

By only seeing her once a week for now on, it will give me much more time to work on what she teaches me on my own. Two lessons was good to start with (because right from our first lesson, we went back to basics). 

Without her help, I wouldnt have been able to get my mares respect back and have her see me as the leader (if I could myself, it wouldnt have come this quickly). It was the 2nd or 3rd lesson with my outside trainer when we achieved this. 

Remember, like I said, I was down this same down path about 9 months ago (where I did have my mares respect), but I let my foot off the gas cause I underestimated the consistency that you need to maintain to keep things this way. That was a real hard lesson to learn because it took a lot of blood, sweat and tears to get it back.
Thats why Im doing everything I can to maintain it, keep building the trust and partnership between my mare and I (And the outside trainer is mentoring me along the way).

For instance, our lesson on Sat...we spent the entire lesson getting my mare used to the plastic bag. Next lesson we will do sidepassing.
We were going to do sidepassing last Sat but she said that sacking her out to a plastic bag would come first and it would be very beneficial for her to experience this.

I will note that my mare is absolutely terrified of plastic bags. But after the lesson, she is a lot better. Still scared but we were at least able to get her to follow the bag, rub it on her withers, topline, barrel, front legs, nose, muzzle and half way up her mane.

What she did was take the string off my carrot stick and knot the plastic bag to the end of that. It immediately reminded me of when I worked my mare with my flagstick.

The outside trainer wants me to keep working on this with my mare so that I can have this this thing rubbed on her anywhere and she doesnt react at all.

She said the reason why this is so beneficial is because if you are riding her out on the trail and she sees or hears a plastic bag, say you step over one or she sees one fly by on the trail, she will be calm and wont react. 

The previous lesson to this, we did the same thing but with the big bouncy arena ball. We were able to get my mare to stand while we put the ball on her back, roll it over her, bounce the ball up high while walking with her, walk with the ball above my head, roll the ball all around her and have it touch her. Now shes not perfect on this, but again, I need to work on this. She is a lot better from this after the lesson.

I mentioned before that I have completely DROPPED MY GOALS. I do not have any goals set for my mare and I. I record my lessons because its very beneficial for me in seeing how I did and what I need to work on. Im not analyzing every move. Im a visual person so the more I see it, the more it sinks into my head. Sometimes things dont quite sink into my head verbally, but when I see it they do.

But at the same time, Im keeping things simple and most importantly having fun when riding my mare.

It also helps me re-listen to examples or tips that my riding coach gives me during the lesson, that I may have not taken in fully during the lesson. Remember, Im not the best listener at times, I can be a bit A.D.D. so hearing what she says to me more than once really helps. This is the exact reason why I took notes when I audited all those clinics a couple weeks ago. If I was able to record those, I would have.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Ok, this has bee my definition of NH for some time......giving people something to do who are afraid to ride. This "trainer" seems to bear that out.
> 
> I do not remember seeing an answer to my previous question....is this the same one that was SO perfect?


Not perfect, but she has incredibly high standards when it comes to a horses groundwork. 

I dont agree with her in that a horse cant have any holes on the ground in order to be ridden. I think that groundwork can only take you and your horse so far and then the rest is in the saddle. 

However, the great news is that the outside trainer and I have stepped outside (about 3 or 4 lessons ago) of the traditional groundwork and gone into more obstacles. Yes we completed the Parelli 7 games and that is great because my mare has never experienced all 7 of them.

She is well aware of how extroverted my mare is and how dominant she is and how she needs to have her mind stimulated so she is always changing things up. She knows exactly when to pick things up so that she does not get bored.

That is one of the best qualities I see in this trainer is her ability to know when to change things up to a new activity so that we dont bore the horse. We may ask of one thing, but once my mare does it once and a good effort, we end things there and move onto the next thing.

But I do see her point on other things. Like on Sat after our lesson, we were talking and she was mentioning how getting my mare used to the big ball and plastic bags, tarps is only going to pay off in the end because I will have a more confident horse who has a lot of trust for me. Because each time you work with a horse on stuff like balls, tarps, plastic bags, logs, wood palletes, you are building trust and their confidence goes up.

She said one thing to me that REALLY REALLY stood out to me in my mind and I think its one to remember forever.

She said that if you go out in the field and watch a baby horse and their mother...that baby will mimic exactly what the mother does. If the mother is calm about something, the baby will do the same. If the mother panics, so does the baby.

So she wants it so that my mare mimics me so essentially I am her dad. So it doesnt matter what is in my hand, it could be an entirely unknown object to my mare, but if its in my hands and im holding it...my mare will be calm and not react because she sees it in my hands and has enough trust in me that she just automatically stays calm. So that its not so much about the object or happenings around my mare, but it roots back to me. And this will carry over to the outside environment where outside distractions can came up - wind, other animals, etc. She wont react because Im with her. And it carries over to the saddle as well. SHe wont react because im on her back.

Hope that makes sense. Sorry Im not the best writer.


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## Hoofpic

Another thing I would like to mention is that even though this trainer is a Pat Parelli trainer, I am not stuck on the way she teaches me things. I know nothing is set in stone. There have been some advice that she has given me that I've found other ways in achieving what I want to achieve in the past. I know there is no written code when it comes to horsemanship. Im not changing what I currently know to what she preaches but ADDING to it. 

Cause I still learn a lot from my BO as well. He gives me a lot of great advice. It may not be from him doing lessons with me, but through us talking. We talk quite often and our conversations can go so long that I feel bad for taking up his time because I know he has stuff to do. But he knows that what he teaches me, I dont just throw it out the window and thats why I think he is so willing to talk to me about stuff and share his knowledge with me.

He sees how I learn - from multiple people/trainers, hanging out in the herd, my use of cameras, and he has gladly accepted it. Im very grateful for this. He admitted that hes never had a boarder before who would record themselves or hang out in the herd on a nice day. But he knows that everyone learns differently and if it benefits my learning, he is all for it. And this would be exactly why he made an exception for me in allowing me to bring in an outside trainer to work with me.

But what my outside trainer has given me is a much softer, much more responsive and willing horse today than my mare was a month ago. The difference in my mare is ENOURMOUS! She is so much softer when backing, yielding her HQ, FQ, and she leads so much better. My outside trainer has re-enforced with me in setting much tighter boundaries with my mare and she implemented these right away. She got me more confident in becoming a more firm and consistent leader for my mare. 

Shes taught me so many ways to use the carrot stick that I never thought would be possible. Yes I carry my carrot stick with me all the time. It really helps me. It such a great tool. She's taught me how to use the energy from inside me and to use my body language more expressively so my mare feeds off it. 

There is still work to be done, but she has become more in sync with me when on the line, huge difference. Before I couldnt even lead her, woah, then back up and have her back up with me and at my pace because she wasnt in sync with me. Now I can. Its not showmanship competition level but its miles better than it was before. 

Watch this video and see how soft this horse is. 






This is exactly what I saw when I went to go audit that one trainer working her stud. 

This is what im wanting to achieve with my mare. My mare is MUCH softer today than she was a month ago. Some of the stuff in that video, I can do with her. My mare is a lot more responsive now in yielding her HQ to me when I just look at her tail (this is at liberty), and she has a lot more energy now in her legs just from responding to the energy from inside you. She never had this before.

What I saw in that Parelli liberty presentation a couple weeks ago at the Mane event was a real eye opener for me because that is what i want to be able to do. Have the horse so connected to you at liberty in the arena that they mimic your every move.


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## KigerQueen

our old gelding has a semi tire blow up less then 60 feet from him and tripped for a spook (my fiance needed to change his cloths). he spooks at nothing. our paint is not spooky and their Apache pony is fearless. Again NO GROUND WORK other then walk trot lope, stop and turn. that it. the ground work never left the round penn. I am the ONLY person who has even asked them to be sent through things. and these horses are fantastic trail horses and i dont mean plot along ponies. i mean galloping up trails and doing thing like in man from snowy river. ground work is nice and liberty is fun BUT its not the end all be all. my mare has ALOT of ground work and i can sa that she was a better and safer riding horse when she did not know HOW to lunge than now and she will do anything i ask.


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## 6gun Kid

I cant imagine anything more useless to do with a horse, but if that's what you want to do. Knock yourself out.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I think this kind of stuff is fun when a horse is too young to ride. It gives you and the horse something to do, some 'play' time together. If you don't have the ability or confidence to ride, it's fine until you do. Once you're on the horse and riding, I don't see any more point in working the horse like this for hours and hours on end. Get on and go ride, it's more fun for both of you.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> I cant imagine anything more useless to do with a horse, but if that's what you want to do. Knock yourself out.


How do you find liberty useless? Its all about having fun and moving and controlling their feet with absolute lightness.

It goes hand in hand with stuff like cowboy challenge, obstacles.

On line ground work I do not find fun. I do not like lunging any horse. Ive just done it too many times. Whether its a 12ft line or 25ft line, going around in circles is just boring for me, even if its 4 or 5 circles.


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## Hoofpic

Now, I will mention that I dont even know forsure if liberty is something that my mare is into. I havent gone far enough into it yet. But if she tells me that shes not into it, ill stop things completely. Im not going to force any horse to do something theyre not into. 

I just find with her curious personality that liberty would suit her well. Mix that in with obstacles and it would be exciting. But if shes not into liberty, then we will just stick with obstacles on the ground because I know for a fact (from the previous owner) that obstacles is what this mare enjoys the most. SHE LOVES THEM! Because it keeps her mind stimulated and makes her think. And she has had quite a bit of exposure with them as well. Going over rivers, bridges, creeks, logs, etc.

Funny enough, most of my mares riding time has come on trails. Her old home didnt even have an arena.


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## DraftyAiresMum

My gelding loves obstacles, too. Have you taken your mare on any trail walks, yet? My gelding loved them before we broke him in. Taught him to trust me and know that I won't ask him to do anything truly scary, even if he initially thinks it is. I now have a horse who LOVES investigating mailboxes (the funkier, the better...his favorite was the one my friend's Arab gelding swore was going to eat him that had cacti planted on it...it was literally a platform with cacti planted on it and the mailbox in the middle of it) and playing with rolling trash cans that he can easily flip the lid up on. :icon_rolleyes:


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> How do you find liberty useless? .


Useless as it has no practical application, no use in ranch work, no use on the trail. I fail to see how playing tag with your horse goes hand in hand with anything. All cowboy challenges I know of involve the horse being ridden, and I ought to know I have competed in the EXCA.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My gelding loves obstacles, too. Have you taken your mare on any trail walks, yet? My gelding loved them before we broke him in. Taught him to trust me and know that I won't ask him to do anything truly scary, even if he initially thinks it is. I now have a horse who LOVES investigating mailboxes (the funkier, the better...his favorite was the one my friend's Arab gelding swore was going to eat him that had cacti planted on it...it was literally a platform with cacti planted on it and the mailbox in the middle of it) and playing with rolling trash cans that he can easily flip the lid up on. :icon_rolleyes:


We have a large hay field across the small street from the barn that I took her through once. It was an experience for the both of us. I plan on doing it again. The owners of this field allow any boarder at our barn to ride their horses through it whenever they want. Often my riding coach and some others will ride their horses through it and all the way down to a nice small path at the very back. Its probably about a 1.5km distance to get there. Its really nice in the summer. I would love to be able to walk my mare down here one day. 

Some boarders will ride their horses along the street leading up to the barn, Ive taken my mare out here a bunch of times (shes okay with the crossing the street) but I dont like walking her on the street cause its gravel. Hard on their feet and especially with hers, so easy to get rocks lodged into her hoof.

The field just looks like this.










Also, there is a small path on the barn property that takes us to the back of the field that Ive walked her through about 8 or 9 times. Its not super long (takes 5mins to walk one way), but its still something because you walk through trees and branches. 

Im a big fan of walking your horse, it builds trust and quite quickly, plus its good excersize for them and it frees your mind as well as theirs. If I hand graze her, ill mostly do it there at the very back.


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## sarahfromsc

"She said the reason why this is so beneficial is because if you are riding her out on the trail and she sees or hears a plastic bag, say you step over one or she sees one fly by on the trail, she will be calm and wont react."

I am sorry, but I laughed out loud when I read this.

From personal experience, a plastic bag floating in the breeze, or stuck on a bush, on the trails is a whole different ball game.

Will my horse go by such an alien object out on the trails? Yep, but he lets me know that it is an alien life form.


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## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> She said that if you go out in the field and watch a baby horse and their mother...that baby will mimic exactly what the mother does. If the mother is calm about something, the baby will do the same. If the mother panics, so does the baby.
> 
> So she wants it so that my mare mimics me so essentially I am her dad. So it doesnt matter what is in my hand, it could be an entirely unknown object to my mare, but if its in my hands and im holding it...my mare will be calm and not react because she sees it in my hands and has enough trust in me that she just automatically stays calm. So that its not so much about the object or happenings around my mare, but it roots back to me. And this will carry over to the outside environment where outside distractions can came up - wind, other animals, etc. She wont react because Im with her. And it carries over to the saddle as well. SHe wont react because im on her back.


Foals are very in tune to their mothers. Then they grow up and become adults. Why would an adult horse want a parent? The point of growing up for any creature is learning how to think and live independently. I've heard this before, and seen adult horses "fail" to react as a foal would by looking to their owner first as a foal would look to their mother. The owner/trainer finds this disheartening, thinking their training needs more work. You say you have a dominant type mare. That's good, she can learn to be confident on her own. We ride thinking, adult horses, not foals. They make their own decisions independently, which can be based on their trust in us but it's a social/herd/friend relationship not a parent/child relationship.


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## tinyliny

gottatrot said:


> Foals are very in tune to their mothers. Then they grow up and become adults. Why would an adult horse want a parent? The point of growing up for any creature is learning how to think and live independently. I've heard this before, and seen adult horses "fail" to react as a foal would by looking to their owner first as a foal would look to their mother. The owner/trainer finds this disheartening, thinking their training needs more work. You say you have a dominant type mare. That's good, she can learn to be confident on her own. We ride thinking, adult horses, not foals. They make their own decisions independently, which can be based on their trust in us but it's a social/herd/friend relationship not a parent/child relationship.


In addition to this , you really DON"T want your horse responding as a foal. when frightened, a foal will try to get as close to its mother as possble. in fact, in foal hood is about the only time the horse can do this ; get so close that he is almost on top of the other horse, without causing the other hrose to react a bit defensively.

I have seen folks who baby horses so much, or who work on Parelli moves in such a way that they allow , in fact encourage, the horse to be waaaaay too close. they infantalize the horse by allowing it to continue to seek reassurance by climbing on top of its handler when frightened. its not pretty to see.

Hoofpic, 

your second lesson shows improvement. I think you are a good student with , as horsemen say, "a lot of try in you". 
I am going to suggest you give up your concern for some kind of ideal relationship in 'liberty' and just focus on improving your OWN riding skills. while you are learning fast, you are a long way from having a really solid seat. it's from there that you start really being able to be a 'driver', instead of just a passenger. first, you need to become a really good passenger; not interfering with your horse's movement. only then can you get her to go YOUR way.

"first get with your horse, then get them with you". your job, should you choose to accept it, is to focus solely on being the best rider you can, . . . for now.


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## Hoofpic

I have to run over to my chiro shortly here, I think I put my back out last night. Not sure what happened. I was fine after I rode. Maybe it was during my sleep. The good thing is that I respond really well to chiro. An adjustment and im back to normal. Had to get it done today because my next ride is on Wed.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> She said that if you go out in the field and watch a baby horse and their mother...that baby will mimic exactly what the mother does. If the mother is calm about something, the baby will do the same. If the mother panics, so does the baby.
> 
> So she wants it so that my mare mimics me so essentially I am her dad..


 This is the most ridiculous statement in a thread full of ridiculous statements. Whatever respect I might have had for this so called "trainer" just evaporated. Again, I am going to say ditch her before she gets you hurt.....or dead.


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## karliejaye

Hoofpic, I watched clips of each of the videos and I gotta say, I saw a lot of improvement between the two. Now, if I were you, I would stop filming for a few months, work on getting comfortable and fluid on Fly, listen to your riding instructor, relax, and re-evaluate a few months down the road.
My personal opinion on the outside Parelli trainer would be to forget her, but if you are truly gaining confidence and enjoy the liberty work, go for it. My caveat would be to look at it like cross training or an extra-curricular activity. One does not always compliment the other, but if you can sort out how not to let one conflict with the other, then have fun! Isn't fun a big part of why we have horses? And who's to say what is fun for you, except for YOU!


Relax, figure out how to follow the horse, and THEN you get to the fun of influencing the horse. Don't let your mind get ahead of you!


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> "She said the reason why this is so beneficial is because if you are riding her out on the trail and she sees or hears a plastic bag, say you step over one or she sees one fly by on the trail, she will be calm and wont react."
> 
> I am sorry, but I laughed out loud when I read this.
> 
> From personal experience, a plastic bag floating in the breeze, or stuck on a bush, on the trails is a whole different ball game.
> 
> Will my horse go by such an alien object out on the trails? Yep, but he lets me know that it is an alien life form.


But isnt it good to sack out a horse to a bag? I mean doesnt hurt right?


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Foals are very in tune to their mothers. Then they grow up and become adults. Why would an adult horse want a parent? The point of growing up for any creature is learning how to think and live independently. I've heard this before, and seen adult horses "fail" to react as a foal would by looking to their owner first as a foal would look to their mother. The owner/trainer finds this disheartening, thinking their training needs more work. You say you have a dominant type mare. That's good, she can learn to be confident on her own. We ride thinking, adult horses, not foals. They make their own decisions independently, which can be based on their trust in us but it's a social/herd/friend relationship not a parent/child relationship.


Ok thanks. An adult horse wants a leader.

Im going to continue having my mare gain confidence .


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> Hoofpic,
> 
> your second lesson shows improvement. I think you are a good student with , as horsemen say, "a lot of try in you".
> I am going to suggest you give up your concern for some kind of ideal relationship in 'liberty' and just focus on improving your OWN riding skills. while you are learning fast, you are a long way from having a really solid seat. it's from there that you start really being able to be a 'driver', instead of just a passenger. first, you need to become a really good passenger; not interfering with your horse's movement. only then can you get her to go YOUR way.
> 
> "first get with your horse, then get them with you". your job, should you choose to accept it, is to focus solely on being the best rider you can, . . . for now.


I plan on doing this. Infact i think im going to skip on this weeks lesson with my outside trainer.

I know what you mean but im confident i can learn both at the same time. Cause i only ride twice a week anyways so i need other stuff to do with my mare. Then when i get back to the barn, im all refreshed mentally.

Is it a bad idea to work a horse twice in one day? Like say i do some online work with her then later in the day i ride. This is not my ideal choice but if i ever need to do this, then at least i want to know if its okay. I know my outside trainer wants me to practice with my mare everyday but thats just not gonna happen.

I told her that. As much as Id love to see my mare 7 days a week (I did this for the first 4 months when i first got her, i got burnt out), i know from experience that i need at least one day a week to reset my mind. Same with my mare. 

I found that i was able to be more alert and focused when i didnt see her every single day.

We both need days off and also days where we just hang out. This is why today im not even going to see my mare. Weve both taken in quite a bit over the past 3 days.


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## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> But isnt it good to sack out a horse to a bag? I mean doesnt hurt right?


There is a school of thought that a person can over do the desensitization which can 'dull' a horse.

Besides, you cannot desensitize a horse to everything that can pop up in the arena or the trail.

How many bags have you seen in the arena?


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> There is a school of thought that a person can over do the desensitization which can 'dull' a horse.
> 
> Besides, you cannot desensitize a horse to everything that can pop up in the arena or the trail.
> 
> How many bags have you seen in the arena?


Not many but I dont see a bag being any different than a carrot stick.

I know 10 years ago you wouldnt see many use a plastic bag or even a flagstick for training but now you see it a lot with the modern day horsemanship trainers. Not sure why. 

According to my outside trainer, my mare NEEDS to be 100% comfortable having the bag on the end of my carrot stick rubbed anywhere on her and wants to see results the next time she comes out. 

Now Im not sure if this is considered a "hole" in my mares training like the outside trainer claims it to be. But I do know an obvious hole that I need to address and im working on - my mares weak side is her right side. She doesnt bend very well to her right and standing on her right side and getting her to yield her FQ, she struggles with, but shes getting better! Got lots of licking and chewing the other day.

Standing on her left side, I can get her to yield her FQ in a full circle and she crosses those front feet very nicely. But the other direction needs work and right now, I just ask for one step at a time. So as soon as I see those front feet cross over once, I release pressure and reward her and move onto something else. But eventually I will want to take it to 2 steps, then 3, then half a circle, then eventually a full circle.


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## Hoofpic

Sundays ride is up for viewing






Just posting again if anyone wants to see it but doesnt want to fish through the thread for it.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Hoofpic,
> 
> When horses are getting into shape they often sweat in funny places. You might see a small spot on one hindquarter or shoulder, or one side of the neck.


Thanks. I was worried about the sweat spot. I was surprised but she wasnt all that sweaty afterwards! She was a bit but nothing compared to the lesson mare and I trotted my mare for over 30mins yesterday. I still dried her off thought and let her cool. I dont feel comfortable letting out a hot horse even on a hot day.



> My husband rides horses in cargo shorts. I've warned him and told him his legs will rub raw and it will hurt. Yet he keeps doing it and somehow he never gets sores and says it's comfortable. When I've tried it I rubbed holes into my leg. So you could try wearing shorts if you want, you never know if it will work or not.


My riding coach said only long pants allowed. Darn. Thats why I wore track pants and to be honest, its not anymore comfortable than jeans are. 



> By the way, you're doing great.


Thanks.



> A lot of times when an instructor is having you do smaller circles around them it's not because of any lofty ideals of teaching your horse balance and inside/outside rein. It's because they can keep an eye on what you're doing more easily, and also you can hear them talk better. During some of my first lessons, I asked if I could go down the length of the arena and my instructor was fine with it. It was just a convenience thing for her, and she didn't care either way very much. Pretty good you're working on posting too.


I agree with that too. But I also think that bending on 20 metre circles really benefits the riders learning as well as the horses. Thats what my coach said. It really helps you achieve ultimate balance in the saddle. Yes its obviously harder than down the wall, full arena but like my coach said, the best way to get them down pat is to keep doing them over and over and over. Eventually it will click. Thats what happend on the lesson mare. I struggled with my balance trotting her on 20 metre circles. I first struggled with keeping her trotting for full circles but eventually i overcame both. I need to do the same on my mare.



> Fly seems like a very nice horse. I agree it can be an adjustment going from one size of horse to another. I've never found that horses ride the same. Some horses have a more forward or more backward center of gravity, differently shaped barrels which put your leg on differently, and quite different gaits which may mean your stirrup length might need to change.


I found the 2nd ride on her to be NIGHT AND DAY more comfortable in the saddle. New reins, bigger stirrups most definitely had a large part to do with it.



> I rode with "zombie arms" when I was a teen. I'd straight-arm cue the horse. Later I learned that my arm between the shoulder and elbow should stay in line with my torso. However, that's difficult to do until you've had some practice lengthening and shortening the reins easily. I believe learning to slide your hands up and down to constantly change the rein length is a necessary skill for riding.


Right now, I just need to know how much slack to have in the reins. My coach tells me but eventually i would like to know on my own.



> Hoofpic doesn't apparently have the type of trainer that is going to send him out on trails right away. However, if that is what he wanted to do, it would be quite possible for him and his horse to go outside on trails and learn out there too. I know a couple trainers who take both green horses and green riders out for lessons on trails rather than in arenas. What makes it safe is having the basics taught to the horse (turning, stopping, basic gaits) and then having an experienced teacher and steady companion horse to go along as mentors. I've done it myself, and worst case the green horse acts up a bit and we switch horses for a little while, I show the green rider how I would handle the situation, and then we trade back when the green horse feels calm again. You don't take a horse with less than 30 rides or hot horse out with a green rider, but a horse with basics and good temperament is capable of learning out on the trail with his rider.


I agree.


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## Hoofpic

I was thinking about this earlier and here are key pointers that I pulled from the first two rides on my mare.

1) She responds very well to the cluck. If I have her already walking, essentially my first que that I give her when asking her to trot is I give her two clucks and say "trot". Most of the time she will respond off it. But if she doesnt, then I give a light squeeze with my legs and she will 9/10 times respond off it. Not even a hard squeeze just very light.

Now I love watching my coach ride her before and after I get on my mare because she makes it look so easy. But essentially Im basically trying to mimic her. I just really want to get balanced and in sync with my mare at a trot on a 20m circle. Obviously it will take time like it did with the lesson mare. My coach says not to worry, I will get it, its just the matter of practice and doing them over and over again. 

One thing I really need to start doing is kicking harder if my mare doesnt go when I ask. There were far too many delays in the first two rides and I need to eliminate them. Like I told my coach yesterday, a big reason why I didnt kick as hard as I could is because I didnt know how my mare would react seeing how she responds to very little leg and reign. Trainer said this is not my fault for thinking this.

But when my riding coach got on after and I watched her do 20m circles, if my mare didnt listen, she would get on her right away and hard. So if she isnt turning, she will give a hard kick with that one leg to get her over. If she wont trot, she gives her a hard kick and my mare seemed to be okay with it. When she gives verbal ques with her kick, she says it very sternly. Not mean, but a serious tone of voice. Its really no different than on the lunge line and giving verbal ques. If the horse doesnt listen the first time, you get on them and change your tone of voice. Like my coach has always said to me "its not a question...you make them do it".

So now, going into the 3rd lesson, I wont be afraid to give my mare a big kick if need to be. I need to be MUCH MORE assertive just like my coach is in the saddle.

I did this on the lesson mare and as soon as I became noticably more firm and assertive in the saddle, she wouldnt test me as much and she saw me more as a leader on her back. Obviously Im not a fan of kicking a horse when riding them, as Im all about lightness (if my outside trainer found out about me doing this, she would flip out) as she is not at all a believer in kicking a horse in the saddle to get them listening to you.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I've never sacked out my gelding. I just did things that I'd normally do and made him tag along. If he acted unsure or like he was going to spook, we worked on it and made him investigate what was so scary and he soon learned that it wasn't so scary.

We once went on a trail ride and there was a big black trash bag flapping to the side of the road. While all the other horses were freaking out and acting like complete ninnies, my schmuck was ambling over to investigate the bag. :icon_rolleyes: 

Point is, you don't have to desensitize with gadgets and crap. You can desensitize by just exposing the horse to regular stuff.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Horses so t like to be nagged or hen pecked any more than people.

But this can be a hot topic so I will hush now.....lolol


----------



## Hoofpic

. I need to be MUCH MORE assertive just like my coach is in the saddle. No more 3, 4, even 5 second delays to get her to trot. If she doesnt listen after asking her twice, give her a hard kick with both legs and give the verbal que in a serious tone of voice. Am I right here?

I remember the first time my outside trainer was out with me doing a lesson, another boarder was riding her mare in the outdoor arena near by us. The mare wasnt responding to her so the boarder said in a loud tone of voice "trot" and gave her a massive kick with both legs. Well my outside trainer saw and heard it and raised her eyebrow. She said she is way too hard on her horse and she needs to be way lighter on her horse.


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## Skyseternalangel

I'm going to be honest, I skimmed the tar out of this thread because I was certain it would do me no good.

However, I am proud of you.

I know I have been hard on you in the past, and finally you are proving yourself a horse person by getting out there and learning, instead of playing the 1000 same-question-reworded game. 

Your first lesson on your mare was great. Your second, even better. I mean you trotted around the entire arena. That's awesome.

Now, my advice is simple. Remember that you have elbows. 

Your elbows apparently stop working when you're on a horse. This is a VERY common thing, because beginners have yet to learn to separate and use parts of their bodies independently. Your arms should not be zombie in nature, but soft... draping, elbows opening and closing.

Try it off the horse first, and then try it at the walk... then the trot is a little different because the horse doesn't "nod" its head as it does at the walk. Their head stays still, but your ARMS and elbows are still draping and soft. No tension in them. Like wet noodles.

I like Fly, seems like a very honest sweet and happy pony. Remembering you have elbows will make her less irritable.

I look forward to your updates, and will continue to skip the other stuff.

Except Phantomhorse's posts... because I cannot get enough of Sultan.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I've never sacked out my gelding. I just did things that I'd normally do and made him tag along. If he acted unsure or like he was going to spook, we worked on it and made him investigate what was so scary and he soon learned that it wasn't so scary.
> 
> We once went on a trail ride and there was a big black trash bag flapping to the side of the road. While all the other horses were freaking out and acting like complete ninnies, my schmuck was ambling over to investigate the bag. :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> Point is, you don't have to desensitize with gadgets and crap. You can desensitize by just exposing the horse to regular stuff.


Well Ill admit, Im not a huge sacking out person, I do believe that you want to make your horse less reactive and less nervous by making them a responsive and calm confident horse. One of the trainers at the mane event said this as well, I think it was Warwick Schiller. 

For instance, lets take walking a horse over a wood pallete or matress for instance. Instead of sacking them out to the object, just walk them over it. You are putting them in responsive mode and not nervous and reactive mode.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Well Ill admit, Im not a huge sacking out person, I do believe that you want to make your horse less reactive and less nervous by making them a responsive and calm confident horse. One of the trainers at the mane event said this as well, I think it was Warwick Schiller.
> 
> For instance, lets take walking a horse over a wood pallete or matress for instance. Instead of sacking them out to the object, just walk them over it. You are putting them in responsive mode and not nervous and reactive mode.


Exactly. Except I don't think about it in reactive versus responsive terms. I think about it in terms of what makes sense. If I don't make it seem like it's a big deal, the horse will follow my lead and not think it's a big deal.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> However, I am proud of you.


Thanks.



> I know I have been hard on you in the past, and finally you are proving yourself a horse person by getting out there and learning, instead of playing the 1000 same-question-reworded game.


Many of you on here have been hard on me in the past and it paid dividends because it made me smell the coffee and realize that I had to learn off trainers in real life. For instance, I was told by many on here for many months to get a mentor to observe me handling my mare. I did just that and have seen the immediate rewards. Its amazing how much quicker and more effective things are taught to you and sink into your mind when its done in person and not verbally over the internet. 

I appreciate all of everyones on here advice and without you guys being hard on me, I wouldnt have finally realized just what I needed to do to become a good horseman. It may have taken awhile for certain information to sink into my head but it eventually did.



> Your first lesson on your mare was great. Your second, even better. I mean you trotted around the entire arena. That's awesome.


Thanks but still lots of work ahead for me!



> Now, my advice is simple. Remember that you have elbows.
> 
> Your elbows apparently stop working when you're on a horse. This is a VERY common thing, because beginners have yet to learn to separate and use parts of their bodies independently. Your arms should not be zombie in nature, but soft... draping, elbows opening and closing.
> 
> Try it off the horse first, and then try it at the walk... then the trot is a little different because the horse doesn't "nod" its head as it does at the walk. Their head stays still, but your ARMS and elbows are still draping and soft. No tension in them. Like wet noodles.


So what you're saying is, move my elbows in and out, left and right? I think the reason why my trainer wants me to keep my elbows still and intowards my sides is so that my hands dont get wandering.

I have a bad habit of having my hands (especially my left since im left handed) take over. I dont have this problem anymore on the lesson mare but I did at first. How did I get rid of it? As my balance got better, I mentally trained my brain to keep my hands still as if im holding onto handles on a bike. 



> I like Fly, seems like a very honest sweet and happy pony. Remembering you have elbows will make her less irritable.
> 
> I look forward to your updates, and will continue to skip the other stuff.
> 
> Except Phantomhorse's posts... because I cannot get enough of Sultan.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Exactly. Except I don't think about it in reactive versus responsive terms. I think about it in terms of what makes sense. If I don't make it seem like it's a big deal, the horse will follow my lead and not think it's a big deal.


I'll be honest, my outside trainer wants me to be able to rub the bag on the end of my carrot stick anywhere on my mare. I personally dont want to do it. I just find it boring. When she did it for last weekends lesson, I was getting bored.

It was a stressful lesson for my mare because there was lots of yawning afterwards.

Are there a lot of horsemanship trainers out there who are big on rubbing bags and flags and tarps and balls on horses?

Now obviously rubbing my mare with the end of the carrot stick is much different because I use the carrot stick as an ext of my arm. Its amazing how effective the stick and string is and my outside trainer has taught me how to use it in the absolute least amount of pressure.

For instance the bag, wouldnt it be more exciting and more effective to just put the bag tied on the stick on the floor and walk your horse right over it?


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> So what you're saying is, move my elbows in and out, left and right?


No not like that at all.

Are you familiar with bungee cords? Rubber bands, slingshots? You know how to pull one end it gets longer and then when you relax the tension it gets shorter?

Think of your elbow as the reins and your hands and fore arms as being one end of the rubber band. Your HORSE is pulling the rubber band, through the connection in its mouth. When she bobs he head down, she's pulling, when it comes back up, she's releasing. 

Your job is to follow that movement by ALLOWING your elbows to open and close. 

Not left and right, stretching open forward, closing back. Like when you are holding a tray and you put it infront of you, then you bring it back close to you.










BUT NOT TO THIS DEGREE, just showing you which direction I'm meaning.

Your upperarms can stay close to your body, with your elbows anchoring them, and your elbows then can open and close to allow that rubber band to be stretched by the horse.

Do you understand?


----------



## greentree

Sorry, Hoofpic, but Fly does NOT respond to a cluck...I had to turn down the volume on the video, because the clucking was making me crazy!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Smeh. I tend to live out of my car, so I would take my gelding with me when I'd have to find something in my car and let him explore with his head in the car (well, truck, but it was a little Toyota pickup). Letting him explore on his own terms made him more confident. A couple of years ago, I was looking for a bag of tropical Skittles I'd brought my gelding as a birthday present in my car ('86 Ford Escort GT, so very small). He stuck his big ol' noggin right in the car and "helped" me look for them. :lol:


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## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> . I need to be MUCH MORE assertive just like my coach is in the saddle. No more 3, 4, even 5 second delays to get her to trot. If she doesnt listen after asking her twice, give her a hard kick with both legs and give the verbal que in a serious tone of voice. Am I right here?
> 
> I remember the first time my outside trainer was out with me doing a lesson, another boarder was riding her mare in the outdoor arena near by us. The mare wasnt responding to her so the boarder said in a loud tone of voice "trot" and gave her a massive kick with both legs. Well my outside trainer saw and heard it and raised her eyebrow. She said she is way too hard on her horse and she needs to be way lighter on her horse.


 Be as soft as you can, but as hard as needed.

How can a horse appreciate a soft feel without knowing what a hard feel feels like?

How does your trainer ask for the trot? What cues is she using? Y'all need to use the same one so as not to confuse your mare.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> No not like that at all.
> 
> Are you familiar with bungee cords? Rubber bands, slingshots? You know how to pull one end it gets longer and then when you relax the tension it gets shorter?
> 
> Think of your elbow as the reins and your hands and fore arms as being one end of the rubber band. Your HORSE is pulling the rubber band, through the connection in its mouth. When she bobs he head down, she's pulling, when it comes back up, she's releasing.
> 
> Your job is to follow that movement by ALLOWING your elbows to open and close.
> 
> Not left and right, stretching open forward, closing back. Like when you are holding a tray and you put it infront of you, then you bring it back close to you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BUT NOT TO THIS DEGREE, just showing you which direction I'm meaning.
> 
> Your upperarms can stay close to your body, with your elbows anchoring them, and your elbows then can open and close to allow that rubber band to be stretched by the horse.
> 
> Do you understand?


I understand but Im still worried that it will cause my hands to become too active.

So basically say im turning her right. I tickle the right rein (aka I just clamp my hand on it or squeeze gently enough to get them to feel it), and left leg. As she turns, I am to have my left elbow move forward a tiny bit?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Sorry, Hoofpic, but Fly does NOT respond to a cluck...I had to turn down the volume on the video, because the clucking was making me crazy!


Sorry. She responds sometimes to the cluck but light squeeze is more effective ive found. But in the long run, I would love to train her so that she responds to the verbal que. So when I say trot, she trots, when I say walk, she walks etc.

A boarder has a mare who can do this. I rode this mare in the clinic. She woahs just by you saying woah, walk when you say walk. Yoy dont have to do anything with the reins.


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Be as soft as you can, but as hard as needed.
> 
> How can a horse appreciate a soft feel without knowing what a hard feel feels like?
> 
> How does your trainer ask for the trot? What cues is she using? Y'all need to use the same one so as not to confuse your mare.


The good thing is that my mare has felt what a hard feel feels like. Just not from "me"...yet.

That is definitely something im going to ask my training first thing on Wed at my next lesson. But from my observations, my trainer clucks at her and gives her a light leg squeeze. If she doesnt go then she gives her a hard kick. Ill have to ask her again to double check.


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## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Well Ill admit, Im not a huge sacking out person, I do believe that you want to make your horse less reactive and less nervous by making them a responsive and calm confident horse. One of the trainers at the mane event said this as well, I think it was Warwick Schiller.
> 
> For instance, lets take walking a horse over a wood pallete or matress for instance. Instead of sacking them out to the object, just walk them over it. You are putting them in responsive mode and not nervous and reactive mode.



it sounds as if you think sacking a horse out is easy.

sacking out a hrose is WAY more than just flinging things at it. it is absolutely dependent on good timing to teach a horse what you should be teaching it, and that is that there is nothing scary about the object. you are teaching the horse to respond to the intent in your body, and not the object.

you can use the same blanket to cause the hrose to run around the round pen, OR, cause it to just stand still and do nothing. it's the INTENT in your body, not the blanket itself.

it's also knowing when to apply the pressure and when to NOT remove it.
removing it too soon, or not soon enough are the biggest mistakes people make when desensitizing. AND, you want the horse to be ok with things moving around when both standing still AND walking . a lot of horses will be ok if they can stop, freeze up, grit their teeth and bear the awful thing until you reward them for doing so. but, they are not OK with it, they are only enduring beacuse they CAN freeze. if you ask them to put up with the scary thing AND move, they lose it. and THAT is the situation you will most encounter on the trails; a scary thing while you are moving.


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## Hoofpic

This is how my outside trainer sacked out my mare to the bag on the end of the carrot stick. Now my mare isnt completely sacked out to the bag but shes a lot better.

First she would put the bag on the side of her nose and knee height so that my mare could smell it. As she does this, she moves the stick and bag away slowly so she can get my mare to follow it. She will have relaxed off body language putting no pressure on my mare. She will do serpentines going backwards while still having my mare follow the stick and bag.

Then after she would stand on the side of my mares now and just raise the stick and bag off the ground, then back down. Rinse and repeat until she can get close enough to touch my mares shoulder with it. Well my mare didnt like it and was scared of the bag so then the trainer started with her withers and topline since thats wheere shes used to having a saddle on.

Over time when she got my mare more comfortable, she would try to rub the bag on my mares barrel. My mare would move away but my trainer would keep the bag there and keep it up there. AS soon as my mare stopped moving, she would take the bag and stick away right that second. Immediate lick and chew. She did this quite a few times and on both sides and lots of licking and chewing. What she did first was, when my mare moves, the trainer guided her along the arena wall (with her own back to the wall) so that my mare couldnt keep circling her and get away. Then afterwards, she would move away from the wall and into the centre of the arena.

She then tried other areas like my mares forehead, neck, front legs, HQ and tummy. She was able to get my mare relatively comfortable with it on her mane, withers, muzzle, her barel, but not really anywhere else. She said i need to work on this.

We did the same with the big ball the lesson before. Where she got me to roll the ball to my mares side barrel and if she moved, the ball would keep rolling towards her. As soon as she stopped moving, the ball would rihgt away go away. She got me to do this on both sides and my mare was fine on her good side but not so much her weak side. 

So what the trainer had me do was to change things up so that if my mare wouldnt stand while i rolled the ball to her weakside barrel, i would then roll the ball back to her good side than right away back to the weak side again.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Sorry. She responds sometimes to the cluck but light squeeze is more effective ive found. But in the long run, I would love to train her so that she responds to the verbal que. So when I say trot, she trots, when I say walk, she walks etc.
> 
> A boarder has a mare who can do this. I rode this mare in the clinic. She woahs just by you saying woah, walk when you say walk. Yoy dont have to do anything with the reins.


My gelding responds to "walk," "trot," "ho" (whoa), and "easy." It's really easy to teach, if you've already taught them to lunge. All you do is add the verbal cue when you ask for the gait, then immediately release the pressure when they respond. It took my gelding all of maybe two sessions to pick it up. I use "easy" when I want him to slow his trot down. I also draw out the words ("waaaaaaaalk" and "eeeeeaaaaasy"), along with lowered body language. For "trot," it's a short, hard word and I say it in more of an upbeat, higher tone. 

There is a downside to having a horse trained on vocal cues, though. For example, when I worked at the Girl Scout horse camp, we were basically giving big, thirty- to forty-five-minute group lessons. Our horses were voice-trained. We'd tell the girls to "Walk on," which was their cue to give their horse a kick and say "walk on." The trouble was, the horses would hear US say "walk on" and immediately respond to us, ignoring the girls riding then. This could be a problem in a lesson for you because your trainer may say "Okay, now walk her" and your mare will hear what she thinks is a vocal cue for her when she hears "walk" and will respond to your trainer's voice, rather than your cue.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> I understand but Im still worried that it will cause my hands to become too active.


It isn't active hands, it's being soft for your horse instead of stiff. Your hands aren't DOING anything when you release tension in your elbows. Can be done with or without contact. 

Holding your hands out in front and being rigid in your arms is what is irritating her. If you start learning how to be soft, she'll be softer yet and more relaxed and happy when you ride her


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> It isn't active hands, it's being soft for your horse instead of stiff. Your hands aren't DOING anything when you release tension in your elbows. Can be done with or without contact.
> 
> Holding your hands out in front and being rigid in your arms is what is irritating her. If you start learning how to be soft, she'll be softer yet and more relaxed and happy when you ride her


Okay Im going to try this on my lesson tomorrow! So my example is correct? If im turning her right, as she is turning, I move my left elbow slightly forward and vice versa for the left side?

Basically like you said its an elastic band effect, the more she turns, the more my elbow goes forward.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Okay Im going to try this on my lesson tomorrow! So my example is correct? If im turning her right, as she is turning, I move my left elbow slightly forward and vice versa for the left side?
> 
> Basically like you said its an elastic band effect, the more she turns, the more my elbow goes forward.


No your example is not correct, sorry I didn't catch that

When you turn, you are just asking her to move her shoulders and go in a new direction. You don't purposefully move your elbows. You hold the reins with your hands/fingers, and you ALLOW your elbow to be loose, or to bend if you are doing turns.

I was trying to find a segment from my riding videos as a visual, but I always ride the walk away from the camera apparently lol.


----------



## greentree

If YOU look where you are going, and you body turns in that proportion, (the same arc as the circle) you do not have to DO anything with your arms. The outside arm will go forward, and the inside arm will come back.


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## egrogan

Skyseternalangel said:


> It isn't active hands, it's being soft for your horse instead of stiff. Your hands aren't DOING anything when you release tension in your elbows. Can be done with or without contact.
> 
> Holding your hands out in front and being rigid in your arms is what is irritating her. If you start learning how to be soft, she'll be softer yet and more relaxed and happy when you ride her


Another way to think of this is having "following" hands. Imagine you are standing face to face with someone and have your hand in theirs as if you're giving a handshake. If that person bends their elbow back toward their hip, what does your hand do if you are still grasping theirs lightly? Your hand extends out forward towards them. Now if you bend your elbow and move it back towards your hip, what does the other person's hand do? It stretches forward towards you, following the direction of your elbow. You are following each other without resisting or wrestling. If you resisted, you'd be tugging the person towards you rather than following them.

Because the horse's head doesn't stay fixed while it moves, you have to think about following the motion. As Sky said, when your arms are held rigidly, when your horse moves her head through her stride, she hits a solid wall, not a gentle contact that follows along with her motion.

As you learn to follow the motion of your horse, you will develop that elasticity. And because she holds her head differently at different gaits, to follow softly will require you learning the motion all over again at all gaits. 

I know that it is hard to differentiate between hands "moving all over" and hands that "follow the motion" right now- that's ok. It takes practice to develop feel, and for most people, that means having someone standing there in person to say "yes, that's it!" Your horse will also tell you too, by shaking or throwing the head if that solid wall blocks them every time they try to find a release.

Others have made the point that it's best to work on your seat before this (at least at the trot). When you're still a bit bouncy and unstable at the trot, your upper body, arms, shoulders, and hands are moving in ways you don't want. That's why people often take lunge lessons to establish the seat early in the process of learning to ride. You don't have to worry about jiggling on the horse's face while you're finding your balance. 

The goal, of course, is for all the pieces of your body to work in harmony with the horse, not interfering with her motion.

_Disclaimer. I've never ridden western and the above is how I think about following hands for a beginning English rider. Disregard if this contradicts your instructor._


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> If YOU look where you are going, and you body turns in that proportion, (the same arc as the circle) you do not have to DO anything with your arms. The outside arm will go forward, and the inside arm will come back.


Oh I see what you mean. 

When I look right now, I mostly just turn my head and use my eyes. Its okay to have your upper torso turn a bit as you are turning your horse? As my torso shifts a bit, my elbows and hands will as well

Im forsure going to try this tomorrow (but I wont mention anything to my trainer about it, will see if she comments on it though). And hopefully as a result she wont have to tell me to lengthen reins as much as she is doing now.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Another way to think of this is having "following" hands. Imagine you are standing face to face with someone and have your hand in theirs as if you're giving a handshake. If that person bends their elbow back toward their hip, what does your hand do if you are still grasping theirs lightly? Your hand extends out forward towards them. Now if you bend your elbow and move it back towards your hip, what does the other person's hand do? It stretches forward towards you, following the direction of your elbow. You are following each other without resisting or wrestling. If you resisted, you'd be tugging the person towards you rather than following them.
> 
> Because the horse's head doesn't stay fixed while it moves, you have to think about following the motion. As Sky said, when your arms are held rigidly, when your horse moves her head through her stride, she hits a solid wall, not a gentle contact that follows along with her motion.
> 
> As you learn to follow the motion of your horse, you will develop that elasticity. And because she holds her head differently at different gaits, to follow softly will require you learning the motion all over again at all gaits.
> 
> I know that it is hard to differentiate between hands "moving all over" and hands that "follow the motion" right now- that's ok. It takes practice to develop feel, and for most people, that means having someone standing there in person to say "yes, that's it!" Your horse will also tell you too, by shaking or throwing the head if that solid wall blocks them every time they try to find a release.
> 
> Others have made the point that it's best to work on your seat before this (at least at the trot). When you're still a bit bouncy and unstable at the trot, your upper body, arms, shoulders, and hands are moving in ways you don't want. That's why people often take lunge lessons to establish the seat early in the process of learning to ride. You don't have to worry about jiggling on the horse's face while you're finding your balance.
> 
> The goal, of course, is for all the pieces of your body to work in harmony with the horse, not interfering with her motion.
> 
> _Disclaimer. I've never ridden western and the above is how I think about following hands for a beginning English rider. Disregard if this contradicts your instructor._


Totally makes sense now. Im definitely going to try this for tomorrows lesson.

Just basically keep my upper torso a bit more loose thats all. Have it on a swivel so that when i look to turn, I dont just turn my head and look to where i want to go but my upper torso from the hips up. 

I would imagine, you wont even need to shift your upper body around too much anyways right? Cause ive been practicing the motions right now in my chair and imagining the outside getting looser as i turn. 

Thank you for the advice Sky, very valuable piece going into my 3rd lesson. Im surprised my coach hasnt mentioned this to me even on my lesson mare. Cause this is how i pretty much rode my lesson mare. 

BUT Ive done my fair share of observing my coach when she rides (any horse for that matter) and she does just as you described...she has her hips turn a bit as well when turning the horse.

Actually, I can differentiate from hands moving with the seat vs hands moving all over the place. I immediately can spot it when i watch my coach ride.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

You can kind of see what they're talking about in this pic of me riding my (green) gelding.

See how my elbow is slightly bent and doesn't look at all rigid?


I was trying to find a pic of us turning, but apparently my friend who was taking the pics refused to take a pic of me while we were turning. :lol:


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My gelding responds to "walk," "trot," "ho" (whoa), and "easy." It's really easy to teach, if you've already taught them to lunge. All you do is add the verbal cue when you ask for the gait, then immediately release the pressure when they respond. It took my gelding all of maybe two sessions to pick it up. I use "easy" when I want him to slow his trot down. I also draw out the words ("waaaaaaaalk" and "eeeeeaaaaasy"), along with lowered body language. For "trot," it's a short, hard word and I say it in more of an upbeat, higher tone.
> 
> There is a downside to having a horse trained on vocal cues, though. For example, when I worked at the Girl Scout horse camp, we were basically giving big, thirty- to forty-five-minute group lessons. Our horses were voice-trained. We'd tell the girls to "Walk on," which was their cue to give their horse a kick and say "walk on." The trouble was, the horses would hear US say "walk on" and immediately respond to us, ignoring the girls riding then. This could be a problem in a lesson for you because your trainer may say "Okay, now walk her" and your mare will hear what she thinks is a vocal cue for her when she hears "walk" and will respond to your trainer's voice, rather than your cue.


Dumb question, so when you taught your gelding the verbal ques in the seat. Did you just give the verbal ques and not physical?


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You can kind of see what they're talking about in this pic of me riding my (green) gelding.
> 
> See how my elbow is slightly bent and doesn't look at all rigid?
> 
> 
> I was trying to find a pic of us turning, but apparently my friend who was taking the pics refused to take a pic of me while we were turning. :lol:


Yes I see it. 

My only concern is that is it actually possible to have your torso turned a bit towards the direction you are wanting your horse to turn to at a full trot or even rising trot? I would find it almost impossible.

Ive watched a ton of other riders and the kids who ride at my barn and take lessons from my riding coach, and I dont think ive seen a single one of them do this. They all have their upper bodies from the hips up sit like statues on the saddle.


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## DraftyAiresMum

No, I still give the physical cue. The reason I added the verbal cue was to make it less confusing for him to know what I was asking (remember, I basically broke my gelding out myself and I am _not_ a professional trainer, so I've had to work with the tools I have). 

In the saddle, it would go something like this to ask for a walk: imperceptible lean forward, accompanied by a squeeze with my calves and the verbal cue "walk." To trot, it would be another squeeze and the verbal cue "trot." To stop, it's a settling of my seat, a block on the reins, and the verbal cue "Ho." Eventually, I'll be able to eliminate the verbal cue all together (actually, already can, but still give it more for my own sake) and he'll completely understand the physical cue.


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## DraftyAiresMum

This is my best friend riding my gelding a couple of years ago. Granted, her body is a bit exaggerated because it was her first time riding him and, as I've said, he's still very green, but you can see how she's turned her torso. The both pics are at a trot.


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## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Hoofpic, I watched clips of each of the videos and I gotta say, I saw a lot of improvement between the two. Now, if I were you, I would stop filming for a few months, work on getting comfortable and fluid on Fly, listen to your riding instructor, relax, and re-evaluate a few months down the road.
> My personal opinion on the outside Parelli trainer would be to forget her, but if you are truly gaining confidence and enjoy the liberty work, go for it. My caveat would be to look at it like cross training or an extra-curricular activity. One does not always compliment the other, but if you can sort out how not to let one conflict with the other, then have fun! Isn't fun a big part of why we have horses? And who's to say what is fun for you, except for YOU!
> 
> 
> Relax, figure out how to follow the horse, and THEN you get to the fun of influencing the horse. Don't let your mind get ahead of you!


Thanks.

Its a tough decision and you know what? I will eventually stop recording myself when riding, just not now. I'm going to record at least the next few lessons, maybe more, because I want to see you guys gauge my progress. 

Its the same thing for when I did groundwork. Yes the main person that im still listening to is my coach, but I love taking in feedback from others as well. Feedback to make me a better rider, not a confused one.

Even if I record and just watch the video once, it at least allows you guys to see what kind of progress im making or what im still struggling with. 

My first lesson I watched a few times from start to finish. My 2nd one I only watched once. So thats a great sign. Im making sure I "casually" watch it and dont start analyzing every move. I dont pause it, fast forward or rewind. I just casually watch it as if im watching a clinic.

I have dropped my goals as a rider. They are no longer valid. But what I do from lesson to lesson is note on what adjustments I need to make. I just make a casual mental note in my head, I dont stress over it, I dont over think it. This is exactly what I did when I rode the lesson mare and it really helped me in my progress on her. Getting better at anything or at any sport is all about making adjustments because if you dont or cant, then you wont improve. And the better that person can handle constructive crictism, the faster they will excel.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This is my best friend riding my gelding a couple of years ago. Granted, her body is a bit exaggerated because it was her first time riding him and, as I've said, he's still very green, but you can see how she's turned her torso. The both pics are at a trot.


Yes! I totally see it now! And this is EXACTLY what my riding coach does when she rides any horse. I need to copy exactly that starting tomorrow!

It doesnt sound like anything outrageously hard either. So when I turn now, I will think as turning my head WITH my hips. Right now, I would be just turning my head so its my neck that does all the work.

I have a feeling that this will really help me big time with the rein control in terms of having the slack consistent.


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## Golden Horse

I think the point that we are trying to get across is that riding is often NOT something you see improvement every lesson. I know from my own experience, and reading here, it is often many lessons of frustration and trying before something suddenly clicks, and you GET it. Or everything is going well, and then for no reason it suddenly is all going badly. Riding a horse successfully is a bit like trying to wrap up a cat, everytime you think you have it all safely wrapped up. you find a bit has escaped. You will work on your hands, and your legs go wrong, work on your seat and your hands are all over the place, it takes a long time for it all to come together, so it is a little unrealistic to expect improvement on every ride.

Each lesson I have my instructor asks me what I want to work on, and we make that one thing the main focus, but at the same time I get nagged at for anything else that goes wrong.....BUT you have to remember to enjoy the journey, you are riding your mare, that is the important thing, of course you want to ride her well, and it will come, but enjoy what you are doing now, enjoy the journey, and stop analysing every little thing. As we discussed elsewhere on the board, riding is part sport, part art, part recreation, part science, different amounts of each for different people. At the moment you are to focused on the science, the how, listen to your instructor, do as she says and really feel the difference it makes to Fly as you do different things. Don't think you have to keep coming back here and post your improvements, because honestly, we are not the important ones, Fly is the important one. Be more in touch with how it feels and how she reacts, rather than videoing to show people, because that does not matter. Video once a month or so, that is enough time to see a change, but every lesson, yeh, not going to happen


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> So when I turn now, I will think as turning my head WITH my hips. Right now, I would be just turning my head so its my neck that does all the work.


Pretty much. 

It also helps your horse feel what direction you want them to turn. Remember how people talk about using their seat cues to help turn a horse? _That_ is what they're talking about.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> It also helps your horse feel what direction you want them to turn. Remember how people talk about using their seat cues to help turn a horse? _That_ is what they're talking about.


Well Im curious to see what difference this makes now, thats forsure.

And when I think about it, this should really help me with rein control and always constantly having to tighten up reins, give more slack etc should it not?


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## DraftyAiresMum

Yes, it should help a lot.

I didn't notice in the video from Sunday. Did you use the new reins you bought?

You can see how long my reins are in those pics I posted. They would be too big on a normal horse (they're 10' English reins), but they're perfect on my gelding. I rode once in a pair of 7' barrel reins. I HATED them and so did my gelding, even though he was in a Little S hackamore at the time. It felt like I was constantly hanging on his face, even though I wasn't.


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## tinyliny

the videos you are recording now will become invaluable in a year or two, as they will show you just how far you have come, inch by inch , week by week.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Yes, it should help a lot.
> 
> I didn't notice in the video from Sunday. Did you use the new reins you bought?
> 
> You can see how long my reins are in those pics I posted. They would be too big on a normal horse (they're 10' English reins), but they're perfect on my gelding. I rode once in a pair of 7' barrel reins. I HATED them and so did my gelding, even though he was in a Little S hackamore at the time. It felt like I was constantly hanging on his face, even though I wasn't.


Yes the ones on my Sunday ride are my new ones. They seemed fine for length. Did they look short to you?

I remember the very first time I rode in my life, I was put on a gelding with split reins. HATED IT! Will never do it again.

I think 10" reins would be too long for me. With the 8" that I got, I still have a good amount of slack between my hands. The ones I used on Friday, I still stand that they were shorter than mine I got now.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> the videos you are recording now will become invaluable in a year or two, as they will show you just how far you have come, inch by inch , week by week.


Thats exactly my thoughts! I know Golden wont agree, but I still think recording videos is beneficial for my learning. Because Im not going to allow myself to get over carried away wit hthem. Just because I record them, doesnt mean Im going to become over analytical. 

Im still focused on listening to my coach and going by feel, going by when things click. I know when things click they just feel natural after. I felt this on the lesson mare. Its all about my mare, how she responds to me in the saddle, how I respond to her and this is my main objective. 

YEs I will record video but it will be for pleasure viewing just for fun. But as I get better though, I wont record every lesson, it will drop off to maybe once every few weeks.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Thats exactly my thoughts! I know Golden wont agree, but I still think recording videos is beneficial for my learning. Because Im not going to allow myself to get over carried away wit hthem.
> 
> Im still focused on listening to my coach and going by feel, going by when things click. I know when things click they just feel natural after. I felt this on the lesson mare.


LOL doesn't matter if I agree or not.......BUT I still think that expecting to see improvements every lesson goes to that unfair expectations of you and Fly. This is your journey, you and your trainer call the shots.


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## Hoofpic

I have a chance to attend (audit) a cowboy challenge obstacle clinic (includes free BBQ lunch), as well as a bit clinic and chat with a vet this Sat. Im wondering if i should go. Or maybe I should cool it with the clinics. I do have the Peter Campbell one coming up in mid June.

This place is where I bought my new stirrups, not far from my barn.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> LOL doesn't matter if I agree or not.......BUT I still think that expecting to see improvements every lesson goes to that unfair expectations of you and Fly. This is your journey, you and your trainer call the shots.


I agree and disagree. I agree that this is my journey and my trainer and I (more so my trainer) calls the shots. I just want to share my journey with all of you.


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## evilamc

I also agree you still need longer reins. Yes you have slack in the middle but your arms are still sticking out to GIVE you that slack rein. You shouldn't need to have your arms so far forward to have slack in the reins.

I use 10ft reins on my barely 15h horse. Yes I have a good bit of slack but I LIKE it. Its just the right amount. Especially for trail riding, I need enough slack so I can give him his head so he can get a drink/if I let him have a snack break. I know you aren't trail riding but getting longer reins now and getting used to them will help your arms/position and make for a happier mare I think.








Pic from last summer









Pic from the other day...excuse my dirtyness....I was too tired from unloading hay/digging trenches to change...and saddle my horse LOL

I know these aren't moving shots but see how I have more bend in my elbow yet the reins aren't too tight still? I have contact with his mouth, just lightly, and hes happy there.


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## Hoofpic

evilamc said:


> I also agree you still need longer reins. Yes you have slack in the middle but your arms are still sticking out to GIVE you that slack rein. You shouldn't need to have your arms so far forward to have slack in the reins.
> 
> I use 10ft reins on my barely 15h horse. Yes I have a good bit of slack but I LIKE it. Its just the right amount. Especially for trail riding, I need enough slack so I can give him his head so he can get a drink/if I let him have a snack break. I know you aren't trail riding but getting longer reins now and getting used to them will help your arms/position and make for a happier mare I think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pic from last summer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pic from the other day...excuse my dirtyness....I was too tired from unloading hay/digging trenches to change...and saddle my horse LOL
> 
> I know these aren't moving shots but see how I have more bend in my elbow yet the reins aren't too tight still? I have contact with his mouth, just lightly, and hes happy there.


Thanks for the pics. I called my store and they dont sell 10ft reins but said they have chain extenders that extend it by 1 ft per side. $30 for the pair. Get it? I will be there on Sat for the clinics.

What do these chain extenders look like? Anyone use them before?

Sent from my C6806 using Tapatalk


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## greentree

I don't think you want chain extenders.....maybe slobber straps. You could make those.


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## evilamc

Hmm could you maybe order them? 

These are mine:
RJ Round Yacht Rope Trail Reins Brass 10'

I have a purple set for my mare hehe! For their price I've been very happy with them. I agree you don't want chain extenders....I feel like that would completely change the communications to your mare because of how they would feel for her.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I don't think you want chain extenders.....maybe slobber straps. You could make those.


Ok. I would be interested in potentially trying tk make some if not difficult.

Sent from my C6806 using Tapatalk


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## Skyseternalangel

Please continue to record every ride. It is imperative to reflect on what your instructor said each lesson, and to see the before and after of whatever tip they asked you to apply in that moment.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Please continue to record every ride. It is imperative to reflect on what your instructor said each lesson, and to see the before and after of whatever tip they asked you to apply in that moment.


I agree. 

Sent from my C6806 using Tapatalk


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## bsms

Rein length is a compromise. With Mia, who had a long neck, I liked 10' reins:










I also frequently rode her in a curb bit, and the reins needed to be longer for a curb. Notice the loop in the reins is getting close to where it can catch against the saddle blanket when using a snaffle. But anything shorter made it hard to let her graze from the saddle.

Bandit with 9' reins. The loop is again getting close to where it could catch on something:










If he does this while riding, 9' is too long:










But it feels just about perfect for this, and this is the bulk of our riding:










I've tried 8' reins with both, but I find that too short, both for letting them graze from the saddle and because I like to use an opening rein and move my hand more - which requires some slack. I have tried split reins many times but I just don't like them. Maybe because I'm USED to these reins, and am a creature of habit.

FWIW, my cue to tell them it is OK to graze while being ridden is to stop, pause, then give full rein and pat them on the withers. The pat means "_Go ahead and eat_". If I don't tell them to eat, it is not OK to do so. I find it annoying if the horse tries to eat all the time.


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## jenkat86

I think 6gun kid already mentioned it, but you should get some long (8'+) leather split reins and if you want them joined just tie them wherever it feels good for you. Also, one day you might WANT split reins and then you will already have them.

I've been trying to catch up on the whole thread, haven't read it all yet but I did take a peek at your riding videos....

I'm glad you finally got on that horse!


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## bsms

If you tie split reins, you get a big knot and the reins are squeezed together to enter the knot, instead of a smooth curve. Western split reins also end up being heavier, which is what a lot of riders like - and what I dislike. English leather reins are much lighter, or at least the ones I owned were. But they are also stiffer, so they don't loop over in the hand as softly as yacht rope reins. I also think leather reins feel harsher on my hands, although a 8' roper rein, well oiled, is OK - just a bit shorter than what I really like.

Like many other things in riding horses, "it depends" applies. If you can BORROW different sets of reins, you can settle on what you like without spending as much money as I did...but I didn't know anyone who used anything other than heavy split reins.


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## DraftyAiresMum

bsms said:


> English leather reins are much lighter, or at least the ones I owned were. But they are also stiffer, so they don't loop over in the hand as softly as yacht rope reins.


This is why I bought used leather English reins. :lol: Already broken in and super soft (you can see how pliable they are in the pics I posted).

My other favorite pair of reins are my flat braided cotton split reins with nylon poppers ( Royal King Braided Flat Cotton Split Reins - Horse.com mine are Weaver brand and brown, but same concept).


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## egrogan

This is all personal preference, but I really don't like a metal-on-metal attachment between a rein with a metal clip on the end and a bit.


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## jenkat86

egrogan said:


> This is all personal preference, but I really don't like a metal-on-metal attachment between a rein with a metal clip on the end and a bit.


I completely agree. I want that connection to the bit to be able to break if ever in a bad position.


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## bsms

I love metal snaps. It would take a lot of force to break a leather tie-loop, and that much force can break or bend a metal snap too. I've had a tied up horse pull hard enough to straighten the metal snap.

People say they rattle on the bit, but I've seen no evidence to support the claim. I think the weight of the rein keeps them in place. But without high-speed video, how could we tell one way or the other?

All I can really say is that I've used them for years without any problem. But which reins to use are all about personal choices.


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## carshon

I second (or third or fifth) the comment on personal preference. We cannot use metal snaps on two of our horses. The one has figured out how to undue them by rubbing the end against her leg. And the other mare cannot bear metal on metal on her bit. Must be some vibration but she tosses her head constantly. For convenience and because we are trail riders we use slobber straps with buckles on them - the reins can be removed quickly and used for other things. We have 3 riders in my family and we all use different rein types and rein lengths

Hoofpic - ask the BO if he has some reins that you can try - that way you are not taking our work for our preference but have some time to feel them and deal with many different lengths. Find what is right for you and your horse.


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> I second (or third or fifth) the comment on personal preference. We cannot use metal snaps on two of our horses. The one has figured out how to undue them by rubbing the end against her leg. And the other mare cannot bear metal on metal on her bit. Must be some vibration but she tosses her head constantly. For convenience and because we are trail riders we use slobber straps with buckles on them - the reins can be removed quickly and used for other things. We have 3 riders in my family and we all use different rein types and rein lengths
> 
> Hoofpic - ask the BO if he has some reins that you can try - that way you are not taking our work for our preference but have some time to feel them and deal with many different lengths. Find what is right for you and your horse.


The reins that the BO has are the ones used for lesson horses. The longest they have is 8'. These are the ones I used on my lesson mare.


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## egrogan

Is there a Facebook tack trader page in your area? This list is pretty US-centric, but it gives you a sense of what's out there. When I've wanted to try new stuff that I wasn't sure I'd like, I've found it cheaply on a page like English Tack Trader and then resold it when it (inevitably ) didn't work out.


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## greentree

As small as Fly is, I cannot figure out why you need longer reins...


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## anndankev

I like to use leather Romel reins with the romel removed, also have a Tucker brand Trail Rein that is a single leather rein plenty long enough.


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## Hoofpic

Im going to give the 8' reins that I got last week another go in todays lesson. I didnt find them bad on Sunday and definitely better than the ones I used on Friday. Ive used single reins before (another horse) and dont like them. Too long, too much slack, gotta worry about looping them etc. 

I think the tip that Sky gave about keeping my hips loose and when I turn my head, engage my hips with them as well should help a lot with rein control. We will see, im very optimistic!


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## anndankev

By single rein I meant a loop, not split reins.


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## Hoofpic

anndankev said:


> By single rein I meant a loop, not split reins.


Oops sorry. Ok what I meant was, Ive used "split" reins before and I didnt like them. Much prefer single.

In fact I have the set of split reins for my mare from my previous owner. 

Im going to a "bit" clinic on Saturday and have to say Im looking forward to it. I wonder if the lady will be talking about reins as well.


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> Rein length is a compromise. With Mia, who had a long neck, I liked 10' reins:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also frequently rode her in a curb bit, and the reins needed to be longer for a curb. Notice the loop in the reins is getting close to where it can catch against the saddle blanket when using a snaffle. But anything shorter made it hard to let her graze from the saddle.
> 
> Bandit with 9' reins. The loop is again getting close to where it could catch on something:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If he does this while riding, 9' is too long:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it feels just about perfect for this, and this is the bulk of our riding:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried 8' reins with both, but I find that too short, both for letting them graze from the saddle and because I like to use an opening rein and move my hand more - which requires some slack. I have tried split reins many times but I just don't like them. Maybe because I'm USED to these reins, and am a creature of habit.
> 
> FWIW, my cue to tell them it is OK to graze while being ridden is to stop, pause, then give full rein and pat them on the withers. The pat means "_Go ahead and eat_". If I don't tell them to eat, it is not OK to do so. I find it annoying if the horse tries to eat all the time.


Thanks for the examples, it really helps me a lot


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## Hoofpic

Im really sad.

After talking with the BO this afternoon before my lesson, ive made a decision to not hve my outside trainer here anymore. 

He was really bothered by what he saw on Sat with my trainer sacking out Fly to the plastic bag tied onto my carrot stick.

He said of all the horses that hes trained in his lifetime, hes never ever done it like that and a ball is fine, but a bag is not. He said the way my trainer used it, it was a weapon and no need for my mare to go through that.

He said sacking out a horse to a bag is pointless. If you are on a trial and they see a bag, they will be uncomfortable regardless, but ultimately they react by seeing how the owner or rider reacts.

He said, the way she was sacking my mare out was detramental and he was worried about how my mare would be during my ride on sunday with my riding coach, thats why he sat in and watched. Thankfully my mare was fine.

Will go more in detail later.


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## greentree

That is sad. Sorry.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> That is sad. Sorry.


Are you being sarcastic?


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## egrogan

Did he say you CAN'T bring someone outside to the property, or just that he wouldn't do things that way?

I personally don't subscribe to that method of training nor really see the point, but I feel bad for you sometimes Hoofpic because you've got a host of know-it-alls (us included! ) telling you what to do and not letting you experiment with what you like best. I personally think rubbing a horse with a plastic bag on the end of a stick is kind of silly, but telling you it's so detrimental to your horse that it would affect how she rides in a lesson? Now _*that *_seems even sillier!


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## Hoofpic

Greentree, the reason why Im sad is because there goes my extra pair of eyes on me when im handling my mare. There goes my teacher. There goes my liberty work. I can still do liberty stuff with my mare but ill most likely have to youtube it to teach me. 

The good thing is, I have a good idea of the foundation behind it.

How lucky am I to have a BO that cares so much for his boarders abd their horses? 

One thing that none of you know was that I waa actually on the fence on whether or not I should continue on with my outside trainer starting the past couple nights. You guys started to convince me and sway my decision. I hate to bring this up again but her little lecture from sats lesson on me being too heavy for Fly really did push my wrong buttons. Her telling me to bring my scale to the barn was just over the top. That really caused me to see her in a completely different light than before. And i used to look up to her so much up until then.

So i got to the barn today and my BO came and talked to me. He just said "I saw what happened"...."there is no need for that". A couple boarders (who i get along with well and i chat with) were in the barn at the same time as me with their horses and they saw what was happening and had to leave with their horses because they were worried that their girls would react from it. They knew that if their horses were to injure themselves, liability would be a mess.

So BO just said that its not my fault for what happened (im not knowledgable enough to tell if sacking out a horse to a bag is benefical for them) so he was just looking out for me and saying if I want to still have this trainer out, hes still okay with it but make sure there are no other horses in the barn then.

But he said how she was sacking Fly out was not the right method and it was detramental. He said if he was me, he would save his money and no longer have her out cause shes not doing anything for my mare or I.


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## Golden Horse

egrogan said:


> I personally think rubbing a horse with a plastic bag on the end of a stick is kind of silly, but telling you it's so detrimental to your horse that it would affect how she rides in a lesson? Now _*that *_seems even sillier!


I guess it may depend on HOW it's done, I did one ground work clinic with Gibbs and of course the bag was used, but very much approach and retreat rather than flooding. It was interesting that Gibbs was 100% fine with it when standing but was scared of it while walking, something that a lot of people don't do.

I guess you were questioning it anyway Hoofpic, so just move forward into a new stage, riding your mare, you can still do the groundwork you have learned if you think it benefits the pair of you......


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Did he say you CAN'T bring someone outside to the property, or just that he wouldn't do things that way?
> 
> I personally don't subscribe to that method of training nor really see the point, but I feel bad for you sometimes Hoofpic because you've got a host of know-it-alls (us included! ) telling you what to do and not letting you experiment with what you like best. I personally think rubbing a horse with a plastic bag on the end of a stick is kind of silly, but telling you it's so detrimental to your horse that it would affect how she rides in a lesson? Now _*that *_seems even sillier!


He jist said that he is fine with sacking out but not the way my trainer was doing it. How was my trainer doing it? Well exactly how Pat Parelli does. He said it was far too much for any horse at any age. This I agree with him on as my trainer was using the bag on my mare for an hour and a half. Far too long. Lots of yawns after from my mare when i tied her so she was obviously very stressed in that lesson.

The fact my outside trainer wanted me to keep that bag tied on the end of my carrot stick and have that replace my carrot stick for the time being was really alarming. Thankfully i did not do this because i know my BO and other boarders would NOT be ok with this.

And my outside trainer wanted me to sack out ny mare to the bag on a stick day after day so that the next time she came out, i could rub it anywhere on her and not have her react.

He said Im fine having another trainer out but he just wouldnt do things like how my outside trainer did. Im not sure if i want to bring in another trainer. Im not getting too far ahead of myself here but perhaps my outside trainer taught me enough and gave me enough confidence in the month that I had her out here for, to see if I can run with it solo. She did teach me a ton, (aside from the last lesson, im still very glad to have her out. Shes shown me a lot and if it wasnt for her I wouldnt have gained my mares respect once again. So she deserves a lot of credit.

Shes shown me exactlt what i need to work on, on the ground. Shes shown me a much softer way to interact with my mare and how to express my body language better.


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## Rainaisabelle

Sorry I'm going back to rein length, 
I think rein length is something you're going to have to figure out with fly and where she is comfortable and same with you. Where you're not a dressage rider here are some photos of me riding my TB


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## Rainaisabelle

For some reason my photos aren't uploading but if you go to my thread I think it's page 29 has a really good explanation of rein length


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I guess it may depend on HOW it's done, I did one ground work clinic with Gibbs and of course the bag was used, but very much approach and retreat rather than flooding. It was interesting that Gibbs was 100% fine with it when standing but was scared of it while walking, something that a lot of people don't do.
> 
> I guess you were questioning it anyway Hoofpic, so just move forward into a new stage, riding your mare, you can still do the groundwork you have learned if you think it benefits the pair of you......


My outside trainer was doing follow the bag on a stick (which my mare did...BO was ok with this as well), then she went use the bag on a stick in a forward motion so it was always incoming towards my mare. Always going towards my mare. Then when she got my mare somewhat comfortable with having it rubbed on her, my outside trainer started rubbing it frantically all over my mare and my mare freaked out, didnt ljke it at all. 

Trainer said that we need to be able to rub this anywhere on my mare and at any pace and have her just stand still as if shes not phased at all. She was trying to rub it under my mares tail, on her hind legs and tummy and BO said no need for that.

He said if you want to sack out, use the ball or a tarp.

My next lesson my outside trainer wanted to work on the same thinf but using a tarp. Being able to wrap the tarp around your horse. Hokd it above your head and wave it like a flag, wave it over your horse etc

BO had some really encouraging and positive words for me after. He said he saw improvement in my 2nd lesson and he is confident i can be a good rider for my mare. 

This really meant a lot to me. He just said it takes time, dont rush anything and just relax. Go with the flow of the horse and you will achieve softness. I told him that one day I would like to be able to go on a trial ride on my mare with my riding coach and other boarders. He said just be patient, it wilk happen.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> This really meant a lot to me. He just said it takes time, dont rush anything and just relax. Go with the flow of the horse and you will achieve softness. I told him that one day I would like to be able to go on a trial ride on my mare with my riding coach and other boarders. He said just be patient, it wilk happen.


Great advice from someone who knows you and your mare, and no reason why you shouldn't be trail riding before very long. Go with the flow, achieve softness is what you are after, and so often we get it by trying less, and just enjoying the ride.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Sorry I'm going back to rein length,
> I think rein length is something you're going to have to figure out with fly and where she is comfortable and same with you. Where you're not a dressage rider here are some photos of me riding my TB


After riding in my 8ft ones again today, I actually like them length wise. Not sure if i need longer ones. With my hands relatively not too far forward, I still have about 1.5-2ft remaining in slack between my hands.

Im going to start doing situps and crunches everyday for now on. My riding coach said if I can get my core stronger, it will go a long ways in helping me with my balance.


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## gottatrot

To me, your barn owner sounds sensible and smart. I think you've made a good decision. You don't need someone stressing out your horse that much as part of her training. It reminds me of a girl I know who wanted to "bomb proof" her horse so she kept sneaking up and throwing a bag full of pop cans over the side of the horse's stall. The poor horse had no idea when something scary was going to drop out of the sky, and began to feel his stall was a very unsafe place he did not want to go into. He was eating his hay all tense and rigid. It did not help him at all with not spooking at things in the riding arena.

I'm not too picky about rein length, I have two rules: If the horse puts their head down to the ground, I should be able to still hold onto the reins without leaning way forward. And the reins shouldn't be able to go around my foot when the horse's head and neck are up high. There's sort of "golden" length for me though, depending on how long or short the horse's neck is. The best length is where the reins hang down your thigh just a little bit, because if they're shorter than that you can end up with them underneath your seat when you're posting and sit on the ends. I've ridden with split reins so long the horse kept stepping on them, and single reins so long (13 ft) I kept having to get my leg out from inside of them.


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## Hoofpic

Thank you Sky for your advice on keeping my hips loose and have them turn in a bit when i turn my head. I did this today and it felt great. It worked! Wasnt hard at all to do and felt natural. Reins stayed softer when turning and my balance is coming along! My riding coach said it was much better than the 2nd ride and she kept telling me to remember that this is only the 3rd ride. So its going to take time.

Today was a tough ride! Why?

My trainer and I both noticed that my mare was bit harder to bend on the 20m circles to her right (which is her weak side). She went 5 months with only being ridden once (that was by the saddle fitter and only at a walk at full arena), to being ridden 3 times in 6 days. So of course she will be a bit soar because she will need sometime to get back in shape. I think two weeks and she will feel better as she gets into shape.

Cause my mare has gotten a bit out of shape. My chiro says shes a bit fat. I dont know if i would say shes fat but like everyone has t old me "shes definitely not starving for food" lol. Shes a bit chunky and I want to shed off a few pounds around her barrel and turn that into muscle. I think she will be a happier mare once she tones up a bit.

My mare had a lot of energy in her today and throughout the lesson we were able to get that trot to slow down a bit. She was so fast coming out of the gate but I got used to it. Cause you know what? I have to go through rides like this. Shes a mare and mares will have their days where they will have more energy than others. Shes not going to be the same every time and today was truly my first test with her in the saddle.

So though perhaps it was rather soon that I experienced this on my mare, its something I will need to learn to know how to handle and felt great getting it under my belt right away.


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## sarahfromsc

Your BO is a gem.


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## greentree

No, not being sarcastic. I am sorry.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> No, not being sarcastic. I am sorry.


But werent you one who thought i should stop seeing my outside trainer?


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Great advice from someone who knows you and your mare, and no reason why you shouldn't be trail riding before very long. Go with the flow, achieve softness is what you are after, and so often we get it by trying less, and just enjoying the ride.


Now where would I be today had I delayed riding my mare and taken my outside trainers advice in that my mare is not ridable because her groundwork isnt finished?

Yes my mare cant bend very well, me, my BO and ridin coach know that. But cant it be addressed in the saddle?

Sent from my C6806 using Tapatalk


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## greentree

Good heavens, I don't know. I cannot keep these people straight. It's like watching As The World Turns, only the people have no names.


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## sarahfromsc

LOLOLOL....Ahhhh shoot, I did t mean to laugh.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Good heavens, I don't know. I cannot keep these people straight. It's like watching As The World Turns, only the people have no names.


Its ok.

Im still a little bummed out about it all, because when I first had this trainer out I was in love with her and her teaching style. I was seeing so many rewards and just so glad to finally have another set of eyes on me when handling my mare. Im sure you can all remember just how happy I was to have found her again.

But like I said, the last lesson didnt leave a good impression inside me. And I know my BO is just looking out for me and my mare. Like Sarah said, he is a gem and there is a reason why so many boarders and people look up to him. These just arent people and boarders who come and go. They have known him for many years and gotten to know just how good of a person he is in terms of trusting his judgement and learning from him.

I dont know how many horses the BO has trained in his lifetime but its definitely more than my outside trainer.


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## greentree

Yes, if she was the one that you were convinced could take you to liberty heaven, you are right, I felt she was full of it from the get-go. Just a feeling I had. Still, I am sorry that it did work out like you hoped.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Yes, if she was the one that you were convinced could take you to liberty heaven, you are right, I felt she was full of it from the get-go. Just a feeling I had. Still, I am sorry that it did work out like you hoped.


I dont think she was full of it, not at all. She was just too caught up by the Parelli method and Parelli only method in teaching.
She truly believed that if you want a truely light and willing horse, you need to teach via the Parelli method.

And that is my ultimate goal. I want a willing horse and the #1 way to achieve that is to build their confidence. You build their confidence by building the trust between the two of you. THats why stuff like the big ball, tarp, logs, wood palletes are great obstacles to build trust. Going to this clinic this Saturday should really help.

: Im still trying to find a solid wood pallette to bring and store at the barn. I would love to be able to get my mare to stand and walk over it.

This trainer taught me a lot! But what she taught me was how to bring softness in your horse through your body language. How to use your energy to drive them.

Even though I only taped our first few lessons, I still benefits from all 8 or 9 lesson that I had with her.

What I will say is that the carrot stick is my best friend, it goes with me everywhere. She taught me so many sutle and light ways to use it.

Could you imagine how much trouble I would get in if I was to take her homework and carry my carrot stick with the plastic bag tied around it everywhere on the barn like I do now with my carrot stick? The other boarders and the BO would flip out. Horses can see this bag from a mile away. What if one was to freak out and accidentally injure himself? I would be liable. 

Especially seeing how there is not a single horse on the property who is NOT terrified of the bag. This is why when my trainer suggested it, I was a bit taken back.

But like you guys said, perhaps I'm better off (and safer in the long run) without learning from the Parelli method.

I can still learn liberty but ill have to do it on my own.

Eventually I would love to attend a showmanship competition.


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## KigerQueen

the fun thing about liberty is figuring it out on your own. this is the first time in my life i have had a trainer. and honestly i can hardly handle 1 trainer much less two! stick to one. focus on one trainer and one thing at a time. my trainer has given me the homework of riding between lessons and im like "so hi odie think we can do the thing today?" and his immediate response is to become a giraffe and look outside the arena at every thing he can. instead of head down and paying attention and bending. he also only has a granny gear when my trainer is not present... so i feel you with a second set of eyes but i think 1 trainer and an observant bo are enough.


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## EliRose

Just gonna say good luck to ya. You seem to have found a great BO and I'm sure you'll be more confident without the Parelli lady sounding off at you over uncontrollable things.


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## gottatrot

The best way I've found to get horses over plastic bags (and I tried sacking a horse out with a plastic bag, which didn't make her less afraid of them on the roadside): 
Fill a plastic bag with pieces of carrots. Every time you get a piece of carrot out, rattle and crumple the bag. Next thing you know, the horses are not only unafraid of plastic bags, they want to inspect them to see if there are any carrots in there. This is how I unintentionally despooked my horses as well as a few other horses to plastic bags. After awhile you can even call horses in from the field by crumpling plastic.


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## gypsygirl

I've been following this whole thread and it seems to me that this plastic bag issue is just a handy excuse for your BO to get rid of this outside trainer. 

There is nothing wrong with desensitizing your horse with a plastic bag. The point of desensitizing IMO is not that they don't get afraid of this or that particular object, it's that they learn how to react appropriately when they are afraid of something. Please don't let your horse stand on a pallet, they can't hold that much weight !! 

Like I said in your other thread, it's really hard to do parelli part time, you're either all in or all out. It's a training program with specific steps, which means not riding until you reach a certain point. Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's what it is.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> He said sacking out a horse to a bag is pointless. If you are on a trial and they see a bag, they will be uncomfortable regardless, but ultimately they react by seeing how the owner or rider reacts.


I genuinely am sorry about this...but I'd like to throw out a little "told ya so." :wink: What your BO said is EXACTLY what several people, including myself have told you here on the forum about sacking out and general desensitization. I'm glad you have figured it out though. And I do mean that in the kindest way. It was probably done with good intentions, but unfortunately our horses don't always understand our intentions. Kudos to your BO for speaking up. 

And just a thought...have you ever approached your BO and asked him if HE would be willing to give you a few lessons? It doesn't have to be a long term thing.

I can imagine that you probably feel like this is a set back. If you do at all feel that way...don't. I don't view this as a setback at all. Use this time to focus on your riding. The time you were spending with your outside trainer, use that time to ride a lesson horse and work on YOUR riding, instead of worrying about your mare. I think if you do that you will be able to start putting all the pieces together a lot easier, and things may stick a bit better. Soon you will be able to recognize how the ground work ties into saddle work. 

I really want to hug your BO.


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## greentree

Hoofpic, I have owned more than 50 willing horses in my lifetime(so far), and, until Mr. P came along, never knew it took walking over pallets, logs, etc. to have one be willing. 

dV....(new abbreviation, means deja vu), horses are psychic. They LIKE what you LIKE, if you are their "leader". So, when you get SICK of going around in circles in an arena, I bet Fly starts to not LIKE it. If you are happy out on the trail, I bet she LIKES it. 

When you SMILE, you relax. When you RELAX, so does your horse. When you teach them something, then SMILE, and RELAX, that is when they GET it.


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## jenkat86

greentree said:


> dV....(new abbreviation, means deja vu), horses are psychic. They LIKE what you LIKE, if you are their "leader". So, when you get SICK of going around in circles in an arena, I bet Fly starts to not LIKE it. If you are happy out on the trail, I bet she LIKES it.
> 
> When you SMILE, you relax. When you RELAX, so does your horse. When you teach them something, then SMILE, and RELAX, that is when they GET it.


I would like this 100 times if I could. Best info I've read in a long time.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> that is my ultimate goal. I want a willing horse and the #1 way to achieve that is to build their confidence. You build their confidence by building the trust between the two of you. THats why stuff like the big ball, tarp, logs, wood palletes are great obstacles to build trust.


Please don't get caught up in the idea that groundwork is the ONLY way to get a horse to have confidence in you.

Yesterday, I was out riding one of our geldings. He is rehabbing from an issue and only supposed to be walking (which he finds beyond boring, as he is a fit endurance horse), so he was def up and feeling fine. I have never done 'groundwork' with him beyond catching, leading, grooming type of stuff. Yet this is what I got from him while riding yesterday:






He had never seen that piece of equipment before. Heck, neither had I. But because of our history - all of it riding-based - he trusted me when I told him it was ok.


You can and will build trust with your mare from the saddle. Listen to your trainer and your BO and enjoy riding Fly!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> *She was just too caught up by the Parelli method and Parelli only method in teaching.
> She truly believed that if you want a truely light and willing horse, you need to teach via the Parelli method.*
> 
> :_ Im still trying to find a solid wood pallette to bring and store at the barn. I would love to be able to get my mare to stand and walk over it._
> 
> *But like you guys said, perhaps I'm better off (and safer in the long run) without learning from the Parelli method.*


Per the *bold*, that is the fundamental problem with most Parelli disciples. They are almost cultishly devoted to the Parelli way and honestly believe that it is the be-all-end-all. They are not open to other methods and get upset when anyone tries to tell them differently. 

Per the _italicized_, do you mean "solid" as in "not falling apart" or "solid" as in "no gaps"? Because the latter is going to be extremely difficult to find. The bridge at my old barn was a pallet that the BO had added boards to to make the top solid with no gaps. At the barn I'm at now, the bridge is a pair of pallets with a piece of plywood screwed to the top that latch together with an eye-and-latch configuration. Here's pics of both (the first is the old barn, the second is the new barn):


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## greentree

For the pallet....drive by the plumbing supply places. I got a very nice solid one from there. You could just use a piece of plywood. 

They are cultish and desperate because they paid a LOT of money to get that training, and they need to find a way to get out of that hole!


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## bsms

Yesterday, I was too sore from the previous day's jogging to want to ride. My wife didn't want to either. So she put a leash on our 2 year old white German Shepherd, I put a lead line on Bandit, and we walked together for 3-4 miles. We did some walking beside a road that has little traffic, but all the traffic there goes at 60-65 mph, including 1 semi. We stopped for about a minute to look at a garage where someone inside was using a table saw to cut metal. We went past a section of desert where both horse and dog were alert about something. It was garbage day, and Bandit has always disliked garbage cans, but he passed by 40 or so without paying any attention.

My right arm was soon covered with horse boogers, as Bandit blew the boogers out of his brain. "Brain-boogers" are a leading cause of tension in a horse - little known fact! After about 30 minutes, his head dropped and he spent most of the remaining walk feeling relaxed. I actually tried to get him interested in some garbage cans toward the end, and he just didn't care about them - no interest at all.

Neighborhoods are Bandit's high stress areas. He can handle the desert fine. Its humans and houses and weird human things that make him tense. So I guess we were desensitizing him, or working on trust, or doing 'groundwork', or something. It looked like we were just a husband and wife out for a walk, taking a dog and horse with us. And I'm eccentric enough that my neighbors don't blink an eye at my walking my horse like a dog.

That doesn't mean I could take Bandit out today, by himself and under saddle, and have him handle it. I think about 25-50% of groundwork carries over to 'alone & under saddle' work...but 25-50% is more than 0%, and the walk was an enjoyable hour regardless. Simple as it was, I consider it good training for both horse and rider. Walking beside a horse is a great way to learn to read their moods, and them walking beside you is a good way for them to learn trust and confidence in humans.

If you like Parelli, but aren't able to go whole hog into his system, then think about what parts you like and adapt it to what you have the time and skill to do. I think Parelli had some good ideas which he largely ruined by turning it into a "system", instead of a bag of good ideas to reach for when you face a challenge. I personally like the part of Parelli that says a horse does best if it trusts its rider, and that there are things we can do to build trust. I dislike the parts that say I should teach trust in a corral with a carrot stick. So, like with most of the books I've read, I take what parts interest me and adapt them to match my situation.

_"...Here, too, we find a practical hint for the treatment of full-grown horses that shy at particular objects and sounds, or object to passing certain spots. Treat them as the English trainer does his young ones, lead them about as described above, and reward them for their docility with a bit of bread, sugar, or something of the sort ; you will thus avoid all conflicts, the danger and evil consequences of which are enhanced a thousandfold if you attempt to mount your horse under such circumstances. Of course, when shyness arises from defective vision, which is often the case, this method will be of no avail." - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)_

I think both Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service, and Pat Parelli would approve of my walk yesterday. More importantly, I think Bandit found it relaxing to walk with a couple of humans and a dog. We need to do it more often...


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## DraftyAiresMum

BSMS, your experience with walking Bandit is exactly what I meant by going on "trail walks." :clap: Is it going to make him a safe, "bomb-proof" trail horse immediately? No. Is it going to help? Most definitely. Plus, if you're on the ground, rather than in the saddle, you can more safely handle a spook, then take him over to work out his tension and fear of whatever caused him to spook.


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## Zexious

I know it can be a bummer to realize that it's time to let one trainer go, but honestly two trainers is only any good if they agree with one another and have similar goals. As a novice, conflicting views and opinions will likely cause more problems than provide solutions.

How's the mare today, OP? <3


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## bsms

If a horse is going to panic when a semi goes past at 65 mph, I'd prefer to be on the ground when it happens! But horses being horses, Bandit barely flicked an ear at the semi. But the same horse who ignores a semi can get worked up over a garbage can on its side...:icon_rolleyes:...a garbage can identical to the one that sits next to his corral 24/7!


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## carshon

Instead of over loading you with even more advice or stories of my own - I just want to say Hoofpic - I am proud of you. Riding Fly is a HUGE step and you have not just done it once but multiple times. Good for you and I hope you have many many happy trails.


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## Hoofpic

KigerQueen said:


> the fun thing about liberty is figuring it out on your own. this is the first time in my life i have had a trainer. and honestly i can hardly handle 1 trainer much less two! stick to one. focus on one trainer and one thing at a time. my trainer has given me the homework of riding between lessons and im like "so hi odie think we can do the thing today?" and his immediate response is to become a giraffe and look outside the arena at every thing he can. instead of head down and paying attention and bending. he also only has a granny gear when my trainer is not present... so i feel you with a second set of eyes but i think 1 trainer and an observant bo are enough.


And I was starting to see this especially when I started riding Fly and planned riding her 2x a week with my riding trainer. There was no way I could continue to do two lessons a week with my outside trainer especially with all the homework she gives me. She kept preaching that I need to work on what she teaches me almost everyday, if not everyday and IMO thats just far too often.

Doing it every day bores me out and will sour my mare.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> The best way I've found to get horses over plastic bags (and I tried sacking a horse out with a plastic bag, which didn't make her less afraid of them on the roadside):
> Fill a plastic bag with pieces of carrots. Every time you get a piece of carrot out, rattle and crumple the bag. Next thing you know, the horses are not only unafraid of plastic bags, they want to inspect them to see if there are any carrots in there. This is how I unintentionally despooked my horses as well as a few other horses to plastic bags. After awhile you can even call horses in from the field by crumpling plastic.


Actually I was reading last night and came across this very same thing. Cut the bag handles and put some carrots inside. Let them go up to it on their own.

Its no different than the big ball. The very first time I had my mare sacked out to it, I did what my BO told me and that was to just let her go up to it and investigate it on her own. When her nose is up to it, slowly roll the ball away from her so it draws her in.

Now, after speaking with the BO last night, he was completely fine with how my outside trainer was doing this exact same thing with my mare and the bag tied onto the end of my carrot stick, simply because the bag was going away from her. But it was once she started using the bag the other way and having it always come towards my mare was when he had a problem with it. He said it was used by my trainer as a weapon and she was a predator.

Now Im not going to sack out my mare to the plastic bag anymore (and I havent again since the outside trainer did on Sat), simply because that way just too much for her. That is why I gave her a two day break and didnt even go see her on Monday or Tues of this week.

My outside trainer felt that my mare made a lot of progress in that 1.5 hour lesson and that she is a lot more comfortable with the plastic bag. Which IMO, I dont think she is. I think if anything shes more terrified of it after seeing how my trainer used it on her.

She said that the bag tied onto the carrot stick is no different than sacking out a horse to a stick and string. But the BO said its not the same at all. Even the big ball and plastic bag is not the same at all.


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## greentree

It is not too often if you incorporate it into your daily stuff. Move her rear with a "look" only when you go get her out of the pasture. Move her shoulder as you close the gate. Do the different excercises as you groom her. Do a little thing or two before you mount up. It does not have to BE a lesson, unto itself.


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## Hoofpic

gypsygirl said:


> I've been following this whole thread and it seems to me that this plastic bag issue is just a handy excuse for your BO to get rid of this outside trainer.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with desensitizing your horse with a plastic bag. The point of desensitizing IMO is not that they don't get afraid of this or that particular object, it's that they learn how to react appropriately when they are afraid of something. Please don't let your horse stand on a pallet, they can't hold that much weight !!
> 
> Like I said in your other thread, it's really hard to do parelli part time, you're either all in or all out. It's a training program with specific steps, which means not riding until you reach a certain point. Not saying it's right or wrong, but that's what it is.


No like I said, my BO (even though he isnt a huge fan of sacking out any horse to a plastic bag since he doesnt find it completely nessecary), understood that it was my horse and I could do what I want. So he was fine when he happened to see my trainer sacking out my mare to the bag with it tied on the end of the carrot stick and drawing her into it by having her follow it.

It was when she was using the stick and bag towards her and constantly for almost an hour is what he didnt like. It was too much for my mare to handle and I agree with this. He asked if I recorded the lesson, I regretfully said no. Of all the lessons I recorded with my outside trainer, this is the one I wish I got on tape so you guys could see. He just said "if you want to sack out your horse to a bag, there is a way to do it, just not how your trainer did it".

I was talking with one of the boarders (1 of the 2 who were in the barn at the time during my lesson with the outside trainer on Sat and left because they didnt like what they were seeing) last night since I happened to run into her at the barn after my ride and she said that when her and the other boarder were sitting inside the viewing area waiting for us to finish....she noticed near the end of the lesson that there was one moment where my mare kicked out at my trainer. Not a full kick out but she turned her butt and made enough of a gesture to notice. At the time, I thought I had noticed this as well.

Near the end of the lesson, my mare made it quite obvious that she was stressed and irritated by the ridiculously long lesson with the bag. This boarder also said that if she was me, that she wouldnt have this trainer back out again.


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## natisha

gottatrot said:


> The best way I've found to get horses over plastic bags (and I tried sacking a horse out with a plastic bag, which didn't make her less afraid of them on the roadside):
> Fill a plastic bag with pieces of carrots. Every time you get a piece of carrot out, rattle and crumple the bag. Next thing you know, the horses are not only unafraid of plastic bags, they want to inspect them to see if there are any carrots in there. This is how I unintentionally despooked my horses as well as a few other horses to plastic bags. After awhile you can even call horses in from the field by crumpling plastic.


Anyone who would terrorize a horse for an hour & a half should be gotten rid of.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, I have owned more than 50 willing horses in my lifetime(so far), and, until Mr. P came along, never knew it took walking over pallets, logs, etc. to have one be willing.
> 
> dV....(new abbreviation, means deja vu), horses are psychic. They LIKE what you LIKE, if you are their "leader". So, when you get SICK of going around in circles in an arena, I bet Fly starts to not LIKE it. If you are happy out on the trail, I bet she LIKES it.
> 
> When you SMILE, you relax. When you RELAX, so does your horse. When you teach them something, then SMILE, and RELAX, that is when they GET it.


Thanks, makes much sense.



phantomhorse13 said:


> Please don't get caught up in the idea that groundwork is the ONLY way to get a horse to have confidence in you.
> 
> Yesterday, I was out riding one of our geldings. He is rehabbing from an issue and only supposed to be walking (which he finds beyond boring, as he is a fit endurance horse), so he was def up and feeling fine. I have never done 'groundwork' with him beyond catching, leading, grooming type of stuff. Yet this is what I got from him while riding yesterday:
> 
> http://youtu.be/Bb0yV6QfGD8
> 
> He had never seen that piece of equipment before. Heck, neither had I. But because of our history - all of it riding-based - he trusted me when I told him it was ok.
> 
> 
> You can and will build trust with your mare from the saddle. Listen to your trainer and your BO and enjoy riding Fly!


I agree that you can build trust in the saddle, I just havent done it yet. I will eventually. So obviously right now Im much more familiar with building trust on the ground. 

We have some of those large tractors right across our property all the time in the hay field harolding them so I would love to be able to do the same thing you did in that pic.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Per the *bold*, that is the fundamental problem with most Parelli disciples. They are almost cultishly devoted to the Parelli way and honestly believe that it is the be-all-end-all. They are not open to other methods and get upset when anyone tries to tell them differently.
> 
> Per the _italicized_, do you mean "solid" as in "not falling apart" or "solid" as in "no gaps"? Because the latter is going to be extremely difficult to find. The bridge at my old barn was a pallet that the BO had added boards to to make the top solid with no gaps. At the barn I'm at now, the bridge is a pair of pallets with a piece of plywood screwed to the top that latch together with an eye-and-latch configuration. Here's pics of both (the first is the old barn, the second is the new barn):
> [


Thats the thing and if there is one thing that I learned from the Mane Event that I attended 3 weeks ago, and having watch all those trainers, its that there is no single one way to do things. Its what works for you and your horse. If what you do is different than others but it works, then it doesnt mean its wrong. This is exactly why my BO does not like Parelli and his method. 

Ive seened at some wood pallettes at scrap depots and they all have gaps. I dont mind gaps, they just cant be large enough so that my mare can accidentally get her hoof inbetween. 

From the sounds of it, Im best off buying the Plywood myself and making it. I dont have the tools or generally not much of a builders type of person so i would get a shop to do it for me.

I went to an obstacle clinic about a month ago where I got some experience there and I was able to get a 10 year old mare to step onto a pallette a few times, as well as onto and over a bed mattress. Now sure Id love to be able to do the mattress with my mare but its a lot of work since I was told thats essentially the hardest obstacle out there to get your horse to step and walk over simply cause of the bounciness.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Have you given the loose elbows a try?


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> If you like Parelli, but aren't able to go whole hog into his system, then think about what parts you like and adapt it to what you have the time and skill to do. I think Parelli had some good ideas which he largely ruined by turning it into a "system", instead of a bag of good ideas to reach for when you face a challenge. I personally like the part of Parelli that says a horse does best if it trusts its rider, and that there are things we can do to build trust. I dislike the parts that say I should teach trust in a corral with a carrot stick. So, like with most of the books I've read, I take what parts interest me and adapt them to match my situation.
> 
> _"...Here, too, we find a practical hint for the treatment of full-grown horses that shy at particular objects and sounds, or object to passing certain spots. Treat them as the English trainer does his young ones, lead them about as described above, and reward them for their docility with a bit of bread, sugar, or something of the sort ; you will thus avoid all conflicts, the danger and evil consequences of which are enhanced a thousandfold if you attempt to mount your horse under such circumstances. Of course, when shyness arises from defective vision, which is often the case, this method will be of no avail." - On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)_
> 
> I think both Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service, and Pat Parelli would approve of my walk yesterday. More importantly, I think Bandit found it relaxing to walk with a couple of humans and a dog. We need to do it more often...


I definitely am a fan of the Parelli 7 games. My mare was taught a few of the 7 games prior to reconnecting with this trainer but not all 7. Now, she has gone through all 7 and the few games that she did know are more refined. 

For the most part I am a fan of the 4 stage process under Parelli because it gives your horse preques before the actual ques. So in the long run I truly do believe you will get a softer horse because that horse will respond to the lightest of your pre-ques.

I really was amazed how much of a reward I was seeing right at the start.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> I know it can be a bummer to realize that it's time to let one trainer go, but honestly two trainers is only any good if they agree with one another and have similar goals. As a novice, conflicting views and opinions will likely cause more problems than provide solutions.
> 
> How's the mare today, OP? <3


I started seeing this the day that I decided to open my mouth to my outside trainer and tell her that I will be riding my mare the following week and she obliged. It would be incredibly difficult to work with two trainers if one feels I should strictly be focused on riding her and the other feels I should only be doing groundwork.

Now, remember my riding coach has no problem with my continuing to do some groundwork with my mare every now and then. But my outside trainer was completely against me riding my mare. So much to the fact that she was solely convinced I would get hurt and that my mare was not ridable period. Even SHE said she wouldnt get on her because she wouldnt feel safe on her.

My riding coach and my BO HAVE seen my mare on the ground. They say shes fine. Yes shes not perfect and there is some stuff I could work on with her from time to time, but right now, this mare needs time in the saddle and I would achieve far more by riding her than by not riding her and only doing more groundwork.

The stuff that my mare needs work on, on the ground is mainly just balance on her weak side. Like I said, she doesnt yield her FQ very well when im on her right going to her left. But she yields perfectly when im on her left going to her right. So I plan on working on this with her. Right now, we have started with just one good effort and I stop and end the lesson there. As soon as I see her right front foot cross over her left and it was a smooth and good effort, I reward and end it right there. Then eventually im going to ask for two steps, then be able to do half a circle, then a full circle. Actually, now that I think of it, I could probably ask for two steps right now because I havent worked on this with her for over a week. I plan on working on this with her tonight.

Right now I can yield her FQ going to her right smoothly in a full complete circle with minimal pressure . This is my goal going to her left. She does not like yielding to her left and was extremely fussy about it. Had to put a lot of pressure on her and tap her on the muzzle with the carrot stick but once she got the point, she got softer.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Ive seened at some wood pallettes at scrap depots and they all have gaps. I dont mind gaps, they just cant be large enough so that my mare can accidentally get her hoof inbetween.
> 
> From the sounds of it, Im best off buying the Plywood myself and making it. I dont have the tools or generally not much of a builders type of person so i would get a shop to do it for me.


Get a couple of pallets. Get a sheet of plywood and have the local building supply cut it to the size of the tops of the pallets (usually they'll do that for you...if not, I'm sure you can find someone to help you). Buy a screw gun (you should have one around the house anyway for repairs and such) and some wood screws, and screw the plywood to the top of the pallet. Throw some paint on it to help make it last longer and _voila_! Instant trail bridge.

That second pic, with my gelding standing on the stacked bridge? Those were made exactly how I just described.

If you were closer, I'd have you come over and we'd slap one together in an afternoon.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> It is not too often if you incorporate it into your daily stuff. Move her rear with a "look" only when you go get her out of the pasture. Move her shoulder as you close the gate. Do the different excercises as you groom her. Do a little thing or two before you mount up. It does not have to BE a lesson, unto itself.


Thats true and this is what Ive been doing. Each time I go catch her, I have her turn to me by looking at her tail. She knows the drill by now and even though sometimes she may not do it right away, (I might have to put a bit of pressure on her hind end with the stick), she will eventually do it. 

Obviously it doesnt help when her herdmates try to clinge to her and I have to chase them away.

When I close the gate, I always get her to yield her shoulder away from me. But this is her good side, she yields her FQ from her left to her right so smoothly each time. 

Maybe one of these days I will record a video and show you just how soft and responsive she has become. Even backing up, she is much more responsive. Again back to basics is what the outside trainer and I first worked on for the first couple lessons and it completely changed my horse. Theres no doubt that it took longer and more work simply cause shes a dominant horse but right now I have a much softer horse than a month ago.

My goal on my own, going solo from here on in, is to maintain the firm boundaries that my outside trainer have set with my mare and I.

She is so much better on the lunge line and I will remember that great piece of advice that my outside trainer gave me, "when you yield their HQ on the line, only expect the best so keep asking for them to yield their HQ to you until they are perfect dead centre facing you". I thought at first, this was borderline micromanaging but now when I think of it, its not. Its true, you cant accept lazy efforts when getting them to yield to you on the lunge line.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> How's the mare today, OP? <3


I think shes happier today. Though the lesson from Sat was very stressful for her. 1.5 hours working with a plastic bag would be for any horse. It was far too long! I wanted it to end but my trainer kept going at it. 

She kept claiming that this was a HUGE hole in my mares ground training that until my mare was ok with the bag, we couldnt move forward (which would have been sidepassing the next lesson).

I think shes getting used to being ridden again now. She knows that its time for her to work. Last Friday when i saddled her up, she was really surprised, cause shes not used to being tacked up. You should have seen the look on her face. 

Ultimately though I think once a couple or few weeks pass and she conditions more, she will feel better cause hopefully she can lose some weight and turn that into muscle.

My chiro called her fat and I dont like my mare being called that. So it gives me motivation in getting my mare into better shape. And I will make it easier for her because i plan on getting into better shape myself by strengthening my lower back muslces, and my stomach muscles.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> My chiro called her fat and I dont like my mare being called that. So it gives me motivation in getting my mare into better shape.


Yeah, I'd call her a bit on the tubby side.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Anyone who would terrorize a horse for an hour & a half should be gotten rid of.


I just wish the outside trainer broke it up within a few lessons but instead she wanted to build the great wall of china in that one lesson. 
If she left it at 20mins, it would have been much more effective. 

I just feel bad because I put my mare through that. If there was a way for us to apologize to our horses I would have, but I know horses dont hold grudges and shes already past it. I acknowledged it and know better to not put her through that again.


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## KigerQueen

my mare used to spook at the random shopping carts on the train. as long as she would stop and look at it i would let her stand and think. she got over the carts though she would ALWAYS let me know they were there by staring at them as she walked by. no spook but she never fully trusted them lol! things happen but if i harassed my mare with a bag for 1.5 hours i thing she would have it out with me. it normaly takes me a few days of a few min at a time to get her over something. manholes were an issue for a while. she still dose not trust the lines in the road or changes in pavement but she will listen to me. just tell me her opinion about if sevral times via snorting first lol. love mares. more so Arabian mares.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Have you given the loose elbows a try?


Yes I did it right away and worked out great. Mentioned it with my coach and she said totally makes sense and shes okay with it.

I felt softer and more in control when I did it too. I really noticed it on the 20m circle at a trot. Im less robotic and my rein control was better. Thanks again so much for that advice. It has changed me as a rider.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Yeah, I'd call her a bit on the tubby side.


I do agree that she is a bit chunky. I like to gauge a horses form by looking at them from behind and seeing how far out their barrel comes out to the sides. 

Once she gets into better shape, she sheds off some fat and turns it into muscle, then she should gain weight right?

Oh humans, muscle is 3x the weight as fat on a person. Is it the same logic on a horse? If I can get my mares weight up, Im all for it, I just want it to be muscle not fat.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I do agree that she is a bit chunky. I like to gauge a horses form by looking at them from behind and seeing how far out their barrel comes out to the sides.


That's not the really most accurate way to gauge weight, TBH.

My BO likes her horses a little on the tubby side and none of them have big bellies, but they do have fat deposits elsewhere. 

On this body condition chart, I'd rate your mare at a 7.


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## Hoofpic

I feel that Ive gained enough knowledge over the past month with my outside trainer to see if i can run with this solo. As in handling Fly day to day without having that 2nd set of eyes on me. Im confident that I can.

Having her out (excluding the last lesson) was still very instrumental for me and my mare. Im just dissapointed that it was so short lived, but I think the fact that she doesnt see Fly as being anywhere near saddle ready is just too much of a conflict for me to overcome. And its not going to be fair to Fly being forced to do all this groundwork.

I feel confident enough from what shes taught me on the ground to be able to carry on myself and work on stuff with Fly in the arena on my own. One of these days I will record it and show you guys but im definitely more knowledgable today than I was a month ago.

This liberty work, if I really want to get into it, I will have to do it on my own. Lots of youtube watching. But Im 100x further ahead and more knowledgeable today on liberty than I was a month ago.

I know there isnt a single fan of my outside trainer on here, but I do know that she deserves a ton of credit for what she has done for me and my mare over the past month. I wouldnt have gained my mares respect back if it wasnt for her. I wouldnt be riding my mare right now if it wasnt for her (cant ride a horse if they dont see you as a leader on the ground right?). So she deserves a ton of credit.

Shes taught me so many things that I will hold onto forever moving forward in my learning. 

But if anything, if say down the road I do decide to bring in another outside trainer, Im best finding someone who isnt a Parelli trainer. Im sure there has to be some trainers out there who just teach general horsemanship but are also into liberty. And thats why I got tired of Pat's 3rd lesson at the event a few weeks back and had to walk out 1/3 into it. Because he was making interacting and working with horses, his way or its wrong.

Someone earlier mentioned that I could perhaps ask my BO if he is willing to teach me horsemanship lessons. Im sure he would, but you know what? It still stems back to my original reason on why I didnt ask him in the first place. He already has enough to do in his day to day barn operation and people coming to him with requests and favours. I dont want to put anymore on his plate. As much as he loves helping others and taking care of the horses, I do know that at his stage of his life (hes a senior), you have to allow the man to enjoy his free time.

So with that being said, I learn from this man by talking to him and observing him with others and just him around the barn.

He does teach 2 or 3 people riding lessons but maybe once every couple weeks.

For the time being, I will not bring in another trainer. I will see where I can take myself on my own in terms of my liberty work. But my biggest goal right now for myself is not liberty, its me staying as a leader and doing everything I can do keep it this way.


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## Zexious

^You're the one paying them, not us <3 No need to justify your actions! If you think someone or something is beneficial to your learning, goals, or program... well, as the saying goes, "you do you, boo."


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## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> I just feel bad because I put my mare through that. If there was a way for us to apologize to our horses I would have, but I know horses dont hold grudges and shes already past it. I acknowledged it and know better to not put her through that again.


I really wouldn't beat yourself up about this. I'm sure the horse was irritated in the moment (I'm not sure I'd say "stressed out") but she forgot about it as soon as it ended. It was almost a week ago, she's way over it!


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## Hoofpic

I beleieve she was between 1-2 years old in this pic.

Link not working hold on.


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## Hoofpic

Heres a pic of Fly when she was a yearling (Im guessing), from her original breeder. I still use that same halter on her today but Im expecting her custom made halter anyday now and it will be retired. This is the youngest pic i have of her.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That's not the really most accurate way to gauge weight, TBH.
> 
> My BO likes her horses a little on the tubby side and none of them have big bellies, but they do have fat deposits elsewhere.
> 
> On this body condition chart, I'd rate your mare at a 7.


Never seen this chart before. Thanks. 

But my mare has always had a big belly, it droops down even when she was 2 years old.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Never seen this chart before. Thanks.
> 
> But my mare has always had a big belly, it droops down even when she was 2 years old.


Sounds like a hay belly. That'll probably go away with steady work.


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## Zexious

She sure is a cutie! I haven't seen her before <3<3
Do you have any more recent pics?


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Sounds like a hay belly. That'll probably go away with steady work.


I dont mind the belly though. But even with her previous owner she has always had it and she was on green grass in the spring and summer.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I dont mind the belly though. But even with her previous owner she has always had it and she was on green grass in the spring and summer.


"Hay belly" isn't literally. I just basically means a bigger/bloated belly due to more forage and less exercise. ;-)


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> She sure is a cutie! I haven't seen her before <3<3
> Do you have any more recent pics?


Yes, even though I need to get some more recent ones.

These are from a month or so back.


























Taking a nap with the gelding that shes the closest to in the herd. These two are very close.


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## Zexious

^She's so dainty! Love it! <3


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## Hoofpic

My ride from yesterday. I was on her for 35mins so you missed the last 5mins or so. It was mostly just walking and cooling down.

Not sure why its so blurry when watching in the embedded video but if you click the link, watch from my youtube page and its much sharper. So maybe try that.


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## DraftyAiresMum

You're not _nearly_ as stiff as you were and Fly looks much more relaxed because of it. :clap: 

One thing it seemed like was when you asked her to trot the first time, you seemed to get left behind, like you weren't expecting her to trot. This left you bouncing on her back, which is painful for her (you can tell she's not happy about it at all), until you finally got her rhythm as you rounded the corner to go down the right-hand wall. If you know you're going to ask her to trot, be ready to start posting as soon as she trots. 

It also takes you a bit to find the rhythm to post. I would not be trotting Fly much and ask your trainer for trot lessons on the lesson horse until you can pick up the posting rhythm quicker than you are now. With the way you bounce around on Fly, she's going to end up balking at the trot because it's uncomfortable for her.


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## jenkat86

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You're not _nearly_ as stiff as you were and Fly looks much more relaxed because of it. :clap:
> 
> It also takes you a bit to find the rhythm to post. I would not be trotting Fly much and ask your trainer for trot lessons on the lesson horse until you can pick up the posting rhythm quicker than you are now. With the way you bounce around on Fly, she's going to end up balking at the trot because it's uncomfortable for her.


Definitely agree with these statements! You both looked a lot _more_ relaxed!!!

...but you are far from relaxed :wink: I totally agree with Drafty that you need to really work on finding your rhythm. Not only is that bouncing hard on your horses back but it's hard on her mouth. I'm only about 10 minutes into the video so far, but there is not a lot of slack on those reins and all that tension from the bouncing is going straight to her mouth....I don't know if you notice or not, but she keeps popping that head up. That is a (bad) behavior that horses start to get away from the bit and it can take a lot of time and effort to correct. 

I would definitely encourage you to get more lessons on the lesson horse- maybe some lunge line lessons where you don't have to worry about steering or anything like that- you just worry about finding your seat and rhythm because I do think you need to find body control on YOU. I'm not saying to quit riding Fly, but try to work in an extra lesson a week on a different horse. Fly looks to naturally have a "choppier" gait where her trot isn't all that smooth. I think it will only help you in the long run. 

Still though...pat on the back to you for your progress so far!

I'm also editing to add: I commend you for putting your videos on here for all of us to see. I think that takes a lot of guts.


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## DraftyAiresMum

^^ :iagree:
@jenkat86 finished my thought for me. I'm not quite as far in, but I noticed the same things she did in regards to you (accidentally) popping Fly in the mouth when you post and her resultant head fling. 

Personally, I'd find longer reins. There doesn't appear to be much drape between your hands. You want to feel her mouth, but not be _in_ her mouth. If you look at the pics I've posted of me riding my gelding, there's usually quite a bit of slack in the reins, unless we're turning or stopping. 

Look at these two pics of us trotting (don't mind my position, I know I tend to lean forward at the trot...also, no, I'm not posting...my gelding is difficult to post on because his trot is so smooth, he might as well be gaited).

^ See all the slack in my reins?

^ Not as much slack, but there's a direct line from my elbow, through my wrist, down the reins, to the bit...yet there's still bend to my elbows. If your reins are long enough, that's a lot easier to achieve.


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## greentree

Ummmm. Muscle weighs about 10% more than fat....


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You're not _nearly_ as stiff as you were and Fly looks much more relaxed because of it. :clap:
> 
> One thing it seemed like was when you asked her to trot the first time, you seemed to get left behind, like you weren't expecting her to trot. This left you bouncing on her back, which is painful for her (you can tell she's not happy about it at all), until you finally got her rhythm as you rounded the corner to go down the right-hand wall. If you know you're going to ask her to trot, be ready to start posting as soon as she trots.
> 
> It also takes you a bit to find the rhythm to post. I would not be trotting Fly much and ask your trainer for trot lessons on the lesson horse until you can pick up the posting rhythm quicker than you are now. With the way you bounce around on Fly, she's going to end up balking at the trot because it's uncomfortable for her.


Thanks. Youdo bring up a good point. I need to stop waiting for her to go before i post. 

I never knew this was uncomfortable for horses. Can i ask why it is?

On the lesson horse, i dont have any delay before I can get into a rising trot. I can get into it right away.

When i bounce on Fly its unintentional, usually its around corners but its gotten better.

Yestersay she had more energy and her trot was faster than usual.

I am going to eventually ask to ride the lesson mare as well from time to time. Perhaps once a week.

EDIT: i also just found a local place with 10' reins. Theyre Burwash reins. Im going to pick them up shortly here.

Thanks for the pics. Im curious to see if they make a difference.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I never knew this was uncomfortable for horses. Can i ask why it is?


Ever carry a backpack on your back and started trotting/jogging? How does it feel if that pack just flops around? Hurts, doesn't it? 

Same principle applies for your horse. Your entire 160lbs is pretty much just bouncing away up there, landing on her back pretty heavily.


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## Hoofpic

Do you think the reason why theres no alot of slack on the reins is because of me needih more length?

Im going to pick up a 10' joined rein right now. I found a place who has them.

Also, I should mention and not sure if anyone has noticed yet but for all 3 rides (and all the rides that my trainer has rode on my mare), we have been looping the reins onto the halter. Does that make sense? 

That is why she is wearing her halter as well as her bridle. She still has her bit in but The reins are clipped onto her halter.

My trainer did this from the very start because of how she reacts to such little pressure and having the reins attached to the bit might be too much pressure for her. So when i asked, she said because i have the reins cliped onto her halter she doesnt feel near as much pressure as she would with the reins on the bit.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Ever carry a backpack on your back and started trotting/jogging? How does it feel if that pack just flops around? Hurts, doesn't it?
> 
> Same principle applies for your horse. Your entire 160lbs is pretty much just bouncing away up there, landing on her back pretty heavily.


That makes sense. I totally didnt know that.

I just picked up 10ft reins.

Im going to be riding the lesson mare tomorrow and will record it.

I want you guys to see how i ride the lesson mare to make any comparisons.

How is that ive been able to ride the lesson mare with 8ft reins? Shes bigger and has a longer necj


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## bsms

I spent the first 3 years around horses using a rope sidepull, like this one on Trooper:










It was fine for Trooper, not for Mia. I've been experimenting with this one and Bandit...not sure what I think of it after 3 rides:










FWIW only, but I rarely post. I just find it easier to stay in the "up" position of the post and work on my balance...but that may be because of my stirrup length. I guess folks say you shouldn't use the stirrup while posting, but the old school (1930s) did. And I do, so maybe it is my fault as a rider. But I find it easier, and that it requires I get my heel under my center of gravity:










That was about a month after I got Bandit, when he was trotting with an I-beam up his butt. That is the "up" position for me. The less I go up, the less I have to come down, and I don't see any sign my horse knows if I've got 1/2" under my crotch or 6 inches. I lean forward because I learned riding from reading VS Littauer, and he liked jumping. I'm the only western rider I know who leans forward...and how much slack I've got depends on my horse more than on me.

However, an old cowboy who had about 1000 times as many miles under his butt as I've got told me posting is how you get somewhere with a horse who "_still has some work in him_". I'm just not very good at the motion.


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## greentree

Ok, I watched a bit of the video....I do not have enough gigabytes to watch the entire thing, sorry. You are much more relaxed, and I love the laughing and smiling! 

I do not exactly understand how she has the reins hooked, but anything that helps keep a novice from jerking a green horses mouth is OK with me!


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Ok, I watched a bit of the video....I do not have enough gigabytes to watch the entire thing, sorry. You are much more relaxed, and I love the laughing and smiling!
> 
> I do not exactly understand how she has the reins hooked, but anything that helps keep a novice from jerking a green horses mouth is OK with me!


Take a look at this pic. I know its not the clearest. 

See how the clip of the reins arent where her mouth is? THe single rein is actually clipped onto the side holes of her halter. So there is nothing attached to her bit except just the bridle.

Has anyone ever done this? Apparently to my coach, she said she wont feel near the amount of pressure/tug on her mouth from the bit as a horse who has the reins right on her bit. 

So jenkat and Drafty when you say its hard on her mouth with those short reins, Im not so sure she is actually feeling it.

Sorry you will need to click on the pic to get a closer view


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## greentree

So the reins go through the bit from the outside, to the halter rings?


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## natisha

I've used a regular halter to give lessons. It does save the horse's mouth. Good choice for you & your mare.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> So the reins go through the bit from the outside, to the halter rings?


Yes exactly! Perhaps a wise move from my coach.


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## Hoofpic

I just talked with my riding coach. She said why not have both my lesson mare and Fly in tomorrow and split the time between the two - that way my mare still gets something in and gets excersize. 

So ride the lesson mare first, then hop on Fly right after. Thats actually a good and rather unique idea. Lets see how it turns out! 

I will record myself on the lesson mare but most likely not on Fly because I might only be on Fly for 15-20mins. But at least you guys can see what im like (if im at all any different, which I believe I am) on the lesson mare.

Im more balanced and my body is more under control on the lesson mare, you will see. But that is because Ive spent much more time with her than my own mare. But when I first started riding the lesson mare many months ago, I was in the exact same shoes as I am right now on Fly. Balance is getting there but my rthym could still be a lot smoother. You will see what I mean.


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## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> Has anyone ever done this? Apparently to my coach, she said she wont feel near the amount of pressure/tug on her mouth from the bit as a horse who has the reins right on her bit


Yes, I do this frequently when teaching beginners and therapeutic riding clients. They "graduate" to a bit when they demonstrate quiet hands and independent balance. 

That said, most of our lesson horses happily go bit less. Very unbalanced riders or kids who yank on the face may not get reins at all, because even without reins attached to a bit, you cb still transmit uncomfortable tugs and pulls to sensitive parts of the face with a bit less, side pull, halter-bridle, whatever you use. 

Bottom line, the horse's face is not there for a person to balance on. That's your job.

Edited: just saw the comment about feeding rein snaps through the D-ring to connect to the halter. Not sure I understand why you'd do that and haven't used that method. But if your instructor thinks it's working, her call!

PS-agree with the others who see you going in the right direction! It's fun, right??


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Yes, I do this frequently when teaching beginners and therapeutic riding clients. They "graduate" to a bit when they demonstrate quiet hands and independent balance.
> 
> That said, most of our lesson horses happily go bit less. Very unbalanced riders or kids who yank on the face may not get reins at all, because even without reins attached to a bit, you cb still transmit uncomfortable tugs and pulls to sensitive parts of the face with a bit less, side pull, halter-bridle, whatever you use.
> 
> Bottom line, the horse's face is not there for a person to balance on. That's your job.
> 
> Edited: just saw the comment about feeding rein snaps through the D-ring to connect to the halter. Not sure I understand why you'd do that and haven't used that method. But if your instructor thinks it's working, her call!
> 
> PS-agree with the others who see you going in the right direction! It's fun, right??


I would love to ride Fly bridleless. I know some do, its harder though, takes skill.

Yes its fun, am definitely going in the right direction. Stopping services with my outside trainer was the first step (as much as it still hurts to say that).


----------



## elle1959

Hoofpic said:


> I started seeing this the day that I decided to open my mouth to my outside trainer and tell her that I will be riding my mare the following week and she obliged. It would be incredibly difficult to work with two trainers if one feels I should strictly be focused on riding her and the other feels I should only be doing groundwork.
> 
> Now, remember my riding coach has no problem with my continuing to do some groundwork with my mare every now and then. But my outside trainer was completely against me riding my mare. So much to the fact that she was solely convinced I would get hurt and that my mare was not ridable period. Even SHE said she wouldnt get on her because she wouldnt feel safe on her.
> 
> My riding coach and my BO HAVE seen my mare on the ground. They say shes fine.



Keeping you out of the saddle for as long as possible seems like a great way to stretch out your lessons over a long period and extract as many dollars from you as she can. I think you made a very wise choice in letting her go.


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## greentree

I think you ARE riding her bridleless. I don't see how the bit is doing anything. I would try without the bit and see.


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## Hoofpic

elle1959 said:


> Keeping you out of the saddle for as long as possible seems like a great way to stretch out your lessons over a long period and extract as many dollars from you as she can. I think you made a very wise choice in letting her go.


I know many wont want to hear this but I still believe she is a good hearted person and wasnt after just the money.


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## bsms

She may have had great intentions and simply differed on the right way to proceed. The Parelli process is vastly more ground oriented than I will ever be, but many who believe in it genuinely think it results in greater safety and a lighter horse. I disagree, but it isn't like I can point to a huge string of successes or achievement in MY past to back anything I think!


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> She may have had great intentions and simply differed on the right way to proceed. The Parelli process is vastly more ground oriented than I will ever be, but many who believe in it genuinely think it results in greater safety and a lighter horse. I disagree, but it isn't like I can point to a huge string of successes or achievement in MY past to back anything I think!


I think shes going to be shocked when I break the news to her.

Im still not sure how Im going to tell her without her take offense to it. 

Any suggestions anyone?

I would like to tell her within the next couple days. 

The reason why she hasnt contacted me since Sat is because she has family visiting right now for two weeks and she said she would get in touch with me when she has more time freed up.


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## Hoofpic

Was a bit cold tonight but I got some pics after I put her back in the herd. Want to get more this weekend. Maybe Sat morning before the clinic since ill be meeting a boarder at the barn in the morning as we are going to the clinic together. Should be so much fun!


























Wanted this further out with more of her hind end in it, but I got it at the very last second as she just happened to turn her head around for half a second.


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## Zexious

^Gorgeous!
Enjoy your clinic <3


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## elle1959

Hoofpic said:


> I know many wont want to hear this but I still believe she is a good hearted person and wasnt after just the money.


You're in a better position to know than we are. I'm always a bit skeptical of anyone who is selling me something, just because my own experiences haven't always been the best.


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## Hoofpic

elle1959 said:


> You're in a better position to know than we are. I'm always a bit skeptical of anyone who is selling me something, just because my own experiences haven't always been the best.


Its just unfortunate that she preaches the Parelli method and what happened in the last lesson, because if it wasnt for that I honestly do believe she would NOT say that my mare is not ridable. The way she made it sound, was if my mare was dangerous in the saddle.

She reminds me of one of the trainers that I used at the old barn who claimed his "custom" program was suited for every horse and if you cant do every excersize on his program, your horse isnt ready for the saddle. But funny enough, he DID say that my mare was ridable (and this was last summer). Yes this was the guy who wanted to put a dummy made of straw on my mares back (which I didnt let him do). He did put a couple of 4L jugs of water tied on the saddle on each side and lunge my mare, which i was fine with. I know this is beneficial and something i wouldnt mind revisiting on my own down the road.

Its been just over a year now, being around horses again and Ive already used and learned from 5 trainers (5th is my current riding coach), what is wrong with me?


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## greentree

Given that we had never met you, nor your horse, and several of us were not comfortable putting you on the horse, either because you are a beginner. I do not put beginners on green horses, because if she decides to REALLY test you going into that corner of the arena (where she turns around about every third time), it is going to really shake your confidence, and we do not want that to happen.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Given that we had never met you, nor your horse, and several of us were not comfortable putting you on the horse, either because you are a beginner. I do not put beginners on green horses, because if she decides to REALLY test you going into that corner of the arena (where she turns around about every third time), it is going to really shake your confidence, and we do not want that to happen.


You mean from what you saw in my 3rd ride? Well I agree but its something that I need to learn to overcome right? Its all about timing (like my coach always says) and correcting before it even happens. 

I had these same things happen on the lesson mare when I first started riding her. She would do things like this to get away from work. Like I said before, she tested me left and right, non stop. She is a mare known for testing her riders to see what she can and cant get away with. Thankfully, I was able to overcome her testing and it didnt shake my confidence. 

Im very much looking forward to todays ride. Im glad you guys will be able to see what im like on the lesson mare and if you see any differences.


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## Hoofpic

I was thinking about this last night. Speaking of liberty. Now I've self taught myself a bunch of things in my lifetime and perhaps liberty is something I should try to self teach myself by watching lots and lots of videos. Do you think this can be done? Or is liberty too involved and indepth that you need on site training and guidance? Cause Im up for the challenge if this is something that can be self taught. I just want to be able to achieve something that i can look back at years down the road and be really proud of myself. 

Now, as a rider, yes I want to get better but that is because I want to be able to eventually ride my mare on trails and do obstacles etc. As a rider, Im not looking to become better by choice but because I need to if I want to have the best and most capable connection with my mare. But I will be honest, attending cowboy challenges is something that I would very much be interested in down the road (taking it I can become a good enough rider to do cowboy challenges). Because I do know that you need to become a pretty advanced rider to do that kind of stuff especially since (for the most part) its fast paced. But thats one factor of cowboy challenge that interests me is because it can be fast paced and you're constantly doing different stuff.

Riding around the arena is not the most exciting for me, but Im doing it because I know its what you need to do to get better as a rider and its what you need to do to find rythym with your horse. But once I get good enough as a rider and I can start riding my mare on my own, the first thing I will be doing is setting up logs and barrels in the arena and maneuvering around them on my mare. According to the previous owner (who brought her over rivers, bridges, creeks) this is where my mare is at her best and will give you 110% because she finds obstacles to be the most stimulating for her mind. And I think this is probably what ill be spending most of my time in the saddle doing. I'll still do lessons with my coach to make me a better rider but when I have options down the road, doing stuff like obstacles is just more exciting for me. And for my mare too.

If I work on that and self teaching myself liberty, that would keep me really busy. Cause honestly, I hope I never have to (ok thats a stretch but you know what I mean) lunge my mare again cause I find lunging incredibly boring. I mean, Ive seen and watched boarders at the old barn who would lunge their horse for 40-50mins non stop on a 20ft line to get them to bend better, get excersize. They constantly take them from a trot to a canter and back to a trot. It just doesnt do anything for me. You can get them excersize and work on them bending by doing obstacles and a mini cowboy challenge in your arena.

Ive done it so many times over the past 11 months that Ive been shown 4, 5, 6 different ways to do it but at the end of the day I know what the goal is when lunging and what you are wanting to achieve. So it doesnt matter which steps you take in going about it, as long as you get the end result. Cause of all the what (15-20?) different people that Ive seen lunge horses, everyone is different and not two have done things exactly the same. 

Now, I cant remember which past trainer told me this but they said that for a horse my mares age (5)(though she was 4 at the time when I used him), if you do groundwork with them, you should go 2 days on, 1 day off (off or do something else) because that horse will start to tune you out. When they told me this, it really stuck out in my mind because he got a bit upset at me when I told him that I was doing groundwork with my mare 5, 6 days a week. 

ANd I know this is what my outside trainer kept preaching on me. If I want to do liberty, I need to keep doing on line work with my mare. Keep lunging her from time to time to see her progress. BLAH! I hate lunging! Yes I am fully aware that liberty is started on line first, but I just hate lunging. Im confident that I learn liberty without having to lunge my mare too often.


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## greentree

If you have the TIMING to teach the horse tricks, then you can do anything you want!! 

You are, yes, going to have to teach this stuff on the lead, first, but I don't see why it would involve lunging.....


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## Elana

I have read through all of this (I cannot believe it.. but I did) and I watched the videos. 

Hoofpic, you over think things. I am not saying this to be mean. 

Sometimes you need to just DO and FEEL it instead of over thinking it. Like driving a standard.. listen to the engine and look at the terrain and shift by feel (up or down)! 

I think you are on the right track, but if you are bored at your level riding in the arena on a green horse then you are not challenging your self or your horse enough! 

Instead of riding mindless circles, try serpentines, spiral circles in and out! Try doing a circle and instead of looking straight ahead, look to the center of the circle (pick a spot.. a mark in the ground) and ride the horse around in a circle concentrating on keeping the horse the same distance from that mark (the radius equal). This will mean your circle is ROUND. While you are doing this, you want your horse to trot at the same speed.. not speed up or slow down. Spirals in or out.. you again pick that center spot and try to evenly spiral in and then back out and keep the horse from speeding up or slowing down. 

Serpentines are half circles in different directions.. and you have to again, keep them round AND change posting diagonal when you change direction AND keep the pace even. 

You can also do figure 8's which are riding two circles that touch in the center, not two loops with an X in the middle. Again.. pay attention to your radius and your diagonal.. you can take a walk step between and now you are adding transitions. You and your horse need to learn a balanced way to go from trot to walk (it is hard!!). 

All these exercises will force you to think about where your horse is and how to get these things done.. and as part of that you won't be so fixated on YOU and all this tweaking your are talking about.. your hands will learn to be in the right place or your horse will not be where you need her to be.. you will learn balance because if you don't, you will "buy some real estate" (fall off).. you will learn how to handle your horse or you will not maintain that radius distance.. you will learn to wrap your horse around a steady inside leg and drive her forward with an active outside leg so she tracks up and bends around the circle.. reaching under herself with her hind leg. I think you will become more fluid, and more a part of the horse, if you focus on doing a "job" (such as a round circle at an even pace) than on heels down, head up, shoulders back, hands here and so forth. 

You have a nice little horse and you have a lot of "want to" but *you need to relax* (in your head and on your horse). You are so worried about your relationship with the horse you have lost sight of the need to handle and work her.. like a horse! If you want a relationship with an animal, get a dog. Dogs are really good at this. Horses? Not so much. 

Now get out there and ride and enjoy this horse. 
BTW IMO kicking the Liberty trainer to the curb is the best decision you could make along with the decision to ride your own horse!! HAVE FUN. It isn't surgery.. its FUN! 

Good luck!!!


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## DraftyAiresMum

You asked for advice on how to tell the Parelli trainer that you're done with her. Here's my advice. I've had to become VERY diplomatic in my current position. :lol:

I would say something like this...

"Hey, _________. I've really enjoyed having you as an instructor and I've learned a lot from you. However, I've decided to focus mainly on riding for right now and feel that my riding instructor, _____________, can best help me with that. I know you feel that in order to have a good horse under saddle they first have to be a great horse on the ground, but I've ridden Fly several times now and I think I can accomplish more of my goals by focusing solely on one trainer."

If she throws a hissy fit...well, all the more reason to ditch her. If she can't be professional about it, not your circus, not your monkeys.

Fly is gorgeous, BTW!


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## Hoofpic

Elana said:


> Sometimes you need to just DO and FEEL it instead of over thinking it. Like driving a standard.. listen to the engine and look at the terrain and shift by feel (up or down)!


Dont worry about being mean, I can take some pretty harsh comments from people (and no Im not talking about from off here).

Yes, I know what you mean, go by feel. Which I am but also Im cleaning up on my current routine and adding to it to make things easier and softer in the saddle.

For instance, Sky's advice about softening my elbows by unlocking my hips worked right away and I felt so much better and softer. I felt a lot more in control in the seat cause I wasnt just guiding direction by my eyes and where they were looking.



> I think you are on the right track, but if you are bored at your level riding in the arena on a green horse then you are not challenging your self or your horse enough!


Im not bored, but riding circles around an arena will never make me jump up and down. I know it has to be done and why its done and I am commited to doing it. 

Now, ironically add a few other horses into the arena (like what I experienced at the clinic and during a few of my lessons) and have us all follow each other in sync with one another going through transitions and all of a sudden it completely changes the dynamic of the lesson because it totally makes me feel like we are all out on a trial ride.



> Instead of riding mindless circles, try serpentines, spiral circles in and out! Try doing a circle and instead of looking straight ahead, look to the center of the circle (pick a spot.. a mark in the ground) and ride the horse around in a circle concentrating on keeping the horse the same distance from that mark (the radius equal). This will mean your circle is ROUND. While you are doing this, you want your horse to trot at the same speed.. not speed up or slow down. Spirals in or out.. you again pick that center spot and try to evenly spiral in and then back out and keep the horse from speeding up or slowing down.


We will get there, right now Im still working on getting my mare to do nice consistent 20m circles and keeping her at a trot (which I was able to do last ride), but I havent quite been able to get her to do both consistently. Its all balance, no doubt about it. I had the same issue on the lesson mare at first but my balance came quick and next thing you know I was able to trot her consistently on 20m circles.

Serpentines I do love and find them very fun and my coach said we will get to those eventually. Cause then I can start changing direction more with the half circles and that should be a bit more exciting for my mare.



> You can also do figure 8's which are riding two circles that touch in the center, not two loops with an X in the middle. Again.. pay attention to your radius and your diagonal.. you can take a walk step between and now you are adding transitions. You and your horse need to learn a balanced way to go from trot to walk (it is hard!!).


Ive done figure 8s as well on the lesson mare. I like them. I will do them on my mare eventually, but not there yet. My coach wants me to work on my balance a bit more on a 20m trot and in and out of the corners. 



> All these exercises will force you to think about where your horse is and how to get these things done.. and as part of that you won't be so fixated on YOU and all this tweaking your are talking about.. your hands will learn to be in the right place or your horse will not be where you need her to be.. you will learn balance because if you don't, you will "buy some real estate" (fall off).. you will learn how to handle your horse or you will not maintain that radius distance.. you will learn to wrap your horse around a steady inside leg and drive her forward with an active outside leg so she tracks up and bends around the circle.. reaching under herself with her hind leg. I think you will become more fluid, and more a part of the horse, if you focus on doing a "job" (such as a round circle at an even pace) than on heels down, head up, shoulders back, hands here and so forth.
> 
> You have a nice little horse and you have a lot of "want to" but *you need to relax* (in your head and on your horse). You are so worried about your relationship with the horse you have lost sight of the need to handle and work her.. like a horse! If you want a relationship with an animal, get a dog. Dogs are really good at this. Horses? Not so much.
> 
> Now get out there and ride and enjoy this horse.


Thanks Ill do that. Focus on a job and just do it. And thats my coaches mentality, when she wants me to do something just focus on the job and do it. Thats why she is having me do so many repititions.



> BTW IMO kicking the Liberty trainer to the curb is the best decision you could make along with the decision to ride your own horse!! HAVE FUN. It isn't surgery.. its FUN!
> Good luck!!!


Its still a bit raw in my mind but I think as time goes on I will see the rewards of it. 

I really did like her a lot and found her very trustful. But if she has a completely opposite opinion on my mare in the saddle and doesnt think of her as saddle ready, (not even for her) then how am I suppose to over come that? I cant. Even if I continued to work with her, it will cause many disagreements between us down the road because her and I stand on such different ends of the spectrum on that topic. Am I to keep my riding journey private with her when I work with her? Well that wouldnt be fair would it? Cause she should know. But if I disclose it, then she will just be negative and talk it down. 

But again, the biggest and important factor was that my mare doesnt deserve to have to go through all that groundwork again. Ok so shes not balanced, she has a weak side and she can use some refining in areas. But that will also come with time in the saddle. 

I know the #1 thing my outside trainer kept telling me was, the reason why my mare is not ready to be ridden and is not safe to ride is because she is too spooky. She saw that my mare was not okay with a plastic bag, she saw that my mare was reactive to the parked trailer, so she would say *"you see how she is reacting now, could you imagine what she would be like with you on her back?"..."and you want to ride her?"..."I wouldnt, absolutely not"...."Steven, she is not saddle ready".*

Now that makes me ask myself...say I told her (or she found out) that my plan now is to ride my mare twice a week. Right now, she doesnt even know that I rode my mare a second time.

So seeing how she's so against me getting on my mares back, let alone riding her. You would think that eventually she would say "Hey, Im sorry, we are at different ends here and I will not be able to help you achieve your goal so I will have to discontinue my service with you". Would you not? Cause afterall, why would any trainer with a "good" mindset stick with a client who is doing something that they are so against?

The last lesson with the 1.5 session on the plastic bag was the real eye opener for me. Even if my BO didnt speak to me about it and chime in with his opinion, I still had a bad feeling about it about half way into it. That was my gut feeling telling me that.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You asked for advice on how to tell the Parelli trainer that you're done with her. Here's my advice. I've had to become VERY diplomatic in my current position. :lol:
> 
> I would say something like this...
> 
> "Hey, _________. I've really enjoyed having you as an instructor and I've learned a lot from you. However, I've decided to focus mainly on riding for right now and feel that my riding instructor, _____________, can best help me with that. I know you feel that in order to have a good horse under saddle they first have to be a great horse on the ground, but I've ridden Fly several times now and I think I can accomplish more of my goals by focusing solely on one trainer."
> 
> If she throws a hissy fit...well, all the more reason to ditch her. If she can't be professional about it, not your circus, not your monkeys.
> 
> Fly is gorgeous, BTW!


I do like your example for what to say to her but she would flip out if I went in that much detail. I would say its best to not bring up me riding my mare at all cause the last thing I need is to spend another hour on the phone with her having her convince me that my mare is not saddle ready and that I wont achieve anything riding her yada yada yada.

Your example is great though because its honest, I just think (from having learned my lesson a few weeks back), sometimes its better to keep your mouth shut. My first mistake was mentioning me riding Fly in the first place. But two trainers that Im working with, they both ought to know right? 

And if I was to say that I dont want to focus on groundwork right now, she would know Im lying because she knew how much I was into her liberty work that she taught me, everything she taught me on the ground etc.

I might have to just say that the use of the plastic bag from the last lesson was a big concern at the barn by other boarders and the BO simply for liability reasons if another horse were to injure themselves reacting from it. But obviously she will know that this isnt the entire truth, and that there is more to it than just the bag.

Thanks I think Fly is gorgeous too. She is a barn favourite everywhere she goes. She gets a lot of attention from everyone and all the horses. People (whether its my chiro, massage, farrier, trainers, past trainers) all always have good things to say about her. They all said that she is a fun little horse, she is curious and incredibly smart, but she isnt bad, she just needs to be shown the way and she will give you her all. I have gotten rid of a whack load of her past bad habits that she used to have as well and introduced new ones (like having her lower her head each time I halter and unhalter her).

If there is one thing that I learned from the past clinic I attended, it was that, there is no such thing as a "bad" horse. The horse is always the result of the owner(s) and their training (or lack there of). Horses are perfect creatures, its humans who put them through things that damage them. It was Parelli who said this!

Parelli said, there is only one thing that you have when you take that halter off - the truth. So in other words, if you really want to see the connection and partnership between your horse and you, its shown with the halter off.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic, you can't be nice all the time. I know you want to be, and that's admirable. But it isn't feasible. Sometimes you have to be tough and stick to your guns. 

So what if she gets upset? That's her problem, not yours.

If you re-read what I said, you'll see that I *never* said that you wouldn't be focusing on groundwork. Just because you're saying that you want to focus on riding doesn't mean that you won't be doing groundwork as well. You're saying you're going to be focusing on _*one trainer*_, not one discipline (because groundwork could be considered a discipline).


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## elle1959

I think it's okay to just be straightforward. You could simply tell her that you don't think the relationship is working out and that you won't be continuing. You don't have to provide additional details. I know it's hard to be blunt sometimes, we want to cushion the blow because we're told all the time that we need to be nice and protect others' feelings, but sometimes you just have to yank the band-aid off quickly because it's less painful in the long run.


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## DraftyAiresMum

elle1959 said:


> I think it's okay to just be straightforward. You could simply tell her that you don't think the relationship is working out and that you won't be continuing. You don't have to provide additional details. I know it's hard to be blunt sometimes, we want to cushion the blow because we're told all the time that we need to be nice and protect others' feelings, but sometimes you just have to yank the band-aid off quickly because it's less painful in the long run.


^ :iagree:

And if she starts going off on you, just be polite and say "This isn't up for discussion. I'd hoped to end this amiably, but apparently that's not possible. Thank you for your time and training"...and hang up.


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## Rainaisabelle

If you have Instagram Hoofpic, razzatliberty is a fantastic Liberty account and she's amazing! I've seen her journey from the beginning !!


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> If you have Instagram Hoofpic, razzatliberty is a fantastic Liberty account and she's amazing! I've seen her journey from the beginning !!


Thank you


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic, you can't be nice all the time. I know you want to be, and that's admirable. But it isn't feasible. Sometimes you have to be tough and stick to your guns.
> 
> So what if she gets upset? That's her problem, not yours.
> 
> If you re-read what I said, you'll see that I *never* said that you wouldn't be focusing on groundwork. Just because you're saying that you want to focus on riding doesn't mean that you won't be doing groundwork as well. You're saying you're going to be focusing on _*one trainer*_, not one discipline (because groundwork could be considered a discipline).


Good suggestion, I will do that and let you know how she responds. I think she will get the hint that her opinion of my mare not being saddle ready is ultimately what cost her future visits with me and my mare.


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## Hoofpic

A bit OT but do you guys think that horses (for the most part field owners) who arent handled often, arent ridden get sad or depressed about this? Do you think they know that they dont have a "caretaker" for them who doesnt come to halter them, work with them, brush them?

I know ideally horses just care about food, water and safety but I would think that stuff beyond that (grooming etc) eventually does play a factor. Ive heard some possible long term effects, no handling can have on a horse and just curious if it can affect them mentally.

Even though they are out in the field and are in a herd. I would think that horses know when they see me go in and catch my mare often and see the other boarder go and catch her mare as well. But these two boys are field horses and the only time they come out of the field is when they get their feet trimmed.

Reason I ask is because I am the person who spends the most amount of time in their field so Im the one person who interacts with these two boys the most. Whether im hanging out with them or doing whatever. So these two boys have become really attached to me. First it started with one but over the past few weeks Ive started to notice the other gelding start to get noticably more attached to me.

I give them some attention, rubs, scratches when I go in the field and my BO doesnt mind it (theyre technically his horses), but lately they have been wanting a lot of attention from me. One gets jealous when he sees me give my mare attention and when my mare sees me give either of them attention, she gets jealous and will try to come up as well. But because she is below these two in the herd, she cant push them around. So next thing you know all 3 are standing next to me wanting attention. These two boys are very respectful of my space every time I enter the herd and if they do get in my space I can easily move their feet with very minimal pressure.

But I wonder if they are a bit sad because they are looking for that leader. They are looking for someone to brush and groom them.


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## sarahfromsc

@Hoofpic: just say what you gotta say to the outside trainer and get it over with. You ruminating over it takes your mental energy away from your life and mare.

Move on and up. Sweet Jesus!


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> A bit OT but do you guys think that horses (for the most part field owners) who arent handled often, arent ridden get sad or depressed about this? Do you think they know that they dont have a "caretaker" for them?


 @Hoofpic ...really? Lol...we're going back to this again? :icon_rolleyes:

(all in good fun, of course.)

A horse is a horse...I don't think they care. They only care about food and shelter, IMO.


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> @Hoofpic: just say what you gotta say to the outside trainer and get it over with. You ruminating over it takes your mental energy away from your life and mare.
> 
> Move on and up. Sweet Jesus!


I will, dont worry. I know its not worth my mental energy thinking about.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> @Hoofpic ...really? Lol...we're going back to this again? :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> (all in good fun, of course.)
> 
> A horse is a horse...I don't think they care. They only care about food and shelter, IMO.


I dont mean to bring it up and I know a horse just cares about food and shelter. But you have to remember horses are emotional creatures and some horses really do want that human interaction. 

I went to a clinic awhile back and the 10 year old mare that I was working with, accroding to the owner, she actually prefers to be around people than horses, which I found different. This mare was very much a people's horse. She had a very sweet personality and was a submissive introvert, complete opposite from my mare so working and handling her was quite a change from what Im used to. It made me think, if I didnt already have my mare, she would be the type of horse (personality wise) I should get. But she was also a rescue horse.

I love both of these boys, they really are good boys, so well behaved, the only way Ive gotten to know them is from being around them, so I dont know them as well as the BO does but Ive gotten to know them really well over the months. 

Last night they were standing by the gate wanting scratches and when I left they called for me to come back, and I kept looking back and they keep looking at me, so that made me wonder if being a field horse has made them lonely in wanting that human caretaker.

Not a big deal, just curious thats all.

If I can swing it down the road and keep building on my knowledge I would eventually like to buy a gelding. I think it would be really interesting and fun to have both a mare and a gelding in terms of not just handling them but riding and working with both personalities.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> A bit OT but do you guys think that horses (for the most part field owners) who arent handled often, arent ridden get sad or depressed about this? Do you think they know that they dont have a "caretaker" for them who doesnt come to halter them, work with them, brush them?





Hoofpic said:


> I dont mean to bring it up and I know a horse just cares about food and shelter. But you have to remember horses are emotional creatures and some horses really do want that human interaction.
> 
> I went to a clinic awhile back and the 10 year old mare that I was working with, accroding to the owner, she actually prefers to be around people than horses, which I found different. This mare was very much a people's horse. She had a very sweet personality and was a submissive introvert, complete opposite from my mare so working and handling her was quite a change from what Im used to.
> 
> I love both of these boys, they really are good boys, so well behaved, the only way Ive gotten to know them is from being around them, so I dont know them as well as the BO does but Ive gotten to know them fairly well over the months.
> 
> Last night they were standing by the gate wanting scratches and when I left they called for me to come back, so that made me wonder if being a field horse has made them lonely in wanting that human caretaker.
> 
> Not a big deal, just curious thats all.


Here's my take on this...

My gelding doesn't much care for other horses. He's never been herd bound and almost lets himself out of the gate when I come to visit. He is VERY oriented to me when I'm at the barn (constantly keeps his eyes on me, even if I'm not anywhere near him). 

He has two other geldings in turnout with him. One is Oz, a bay QH, who is just a sweetheart. He is a little stand-offish, but will come up to me and ask for scratches and love. He rarely gets handled and, in the almost four years I've been at this barn, I've never even seen him out of the turnout. The other was Bob, a nasty Appy who was very mean to my gelding and Oz (luckily, he was moved back to his stall and Colt, a big dunskin gelding, took his place). He was also nasty to people and even picked the BO's son up by his shoulder and threw him. 

Then, I've met horses (usually mares, if we're going to be honest) who couldn't care less if there were people around. My best friend's 5yo paint/Arab mare doesn't trust people at all and would be perfectly content if we all disappeared.


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## jenkat86

There's no harm in bringing up a question like that. After giving your example, I can see where it's a fair question...but there is harm in humanizing the horse so much. They are emotional creatures, but at the same time their world is the exact opposite from ours. You simply cannot compare their behaviors to those of a human. 

Ragtime lived solo for 18 of her 27 years. She didn't get introduced to a herd until I introduced her to one. If she had her preference, she would stick with me because she knew I wouldn't run her off of anything, or nip at her or whatever...but when I would take CoCo out to ride, Ragtime would pace that fence and call and work herself into a hot mess until that horse came back.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Here's my take on this...
> 
> My gelding doesn't much care for other horses. He's never been herd bound and almost lets himself out of the gate when I come to visit. He is VERY oriented to me when I'm at the barn (constantly keeps his eyes on me, even if I'm not anywhere near him).
> 
> He has two other geldings in turnout with him. One is Oz, a bay QH, who is just a sweetheart. He is a little stand-offish, but will come up to me and ask for scratches and love. He rarely gets handled and, in the almost four years I've been at this barn, I've never even seen him out of the turnout. The other was Bob, a nasty Appy who was very mean to my gelding and Oz (luckily, he was moved back to his stall and Colt, a big dunskin gelding, took his place). He was also nasty to people and even picked the BO's son up by his shoulder and threw him.
> 
> Then, I've met horses (usually mares, if we're going to be honest) who couldn't care less if there were people around. My best friend's 5yo paint/Arab mare doesn't trust people at all and would be perfectly content if we all disappeared.


Thanks for the diverse examples.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> There's no harm in bringing up a question like that. After giving your example, I can see where it's a fair question...but there is harm in humanizing the horse so much. They are emotional creatures, but at the same time their world is the exact opposite from ours. You simply cannot compare their behaviors to those of a human.
> 
> Ragtime lived solo for 18 of her 27 years. She didn't get introduced to a herd until I introduced her to one. If she had her preference, she would stick with me because she knew I wouldn't run her off of anything, or nip at her or whatever...but when I would take CoCo out to ride, Ragtime would pace that fence and call and work herself into a hot mess until that horse came back.


That sounds familiar. Ive met quite a few people who own horses who were alone by previous owners. 

18 years wow that is a long time!


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## Skyseternalangel

I am over the moon happy all of your questions are now in this thread, and not spread hay wire in separate threads all around the forum.

Here's to more riding videos!


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## carshon

I will add my two cents here as well. As a human we reprimand in a different way and through our training have taught the horse to look to us for guidance. If you are a strong human leader your horse will gravitate to you - for protection but also because they know you give out sweet things. 

Horses do have personalities - although I am not a fan of the left brain - blah blah blah I do believe the have personalities - but so do chickens, or cows etc. Humans have made pets of horses and so we tend to humanize them because we want (need) them to love us back.

I juts purchased a mare on 4/17 - she had been alone with a gelding for 3 years in a 22 acre pasture - ridden very little. When I brought her home she refused to eat hay and was super standoffish. I started introducing grain (very little) and a lot of grooming time. And we have done some riding - her personality is slowly coming out and she is seeking me out in the pasture - running in for her supper and will leave the other 3 horses to come to the gate if she sees me. This is because she is still a little insecure in the herd and I make her feel good. 

My advice to all new horse owners is to be careful. Your horse does not "love" you - and he shouldn't. You always have to be the leader because herd dynamics always change.


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## KigerQueen

my mare likes to interact with select people more than horses but once she realizes food or "playing (free lunging/work)" is not involved she wants nothing to do with people. our 26 year old mare is the same. our 31 year old gelding and our paint LOVE my fiance (and me but him more lol). they want to be with us (unless there is food, then they love food event MORE!). now i will say there are few horses who LOVE to work. most would just love to be with you while they are stuffing their faces or wandering about. that would be their dream. but most could care less if you just let them sit in a field all day doing nothing. i know most of my 5 are that way. the 31 year old LOVES work but he is being retired ethier he like it or not.


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## elle1959

Skyseternalangel said:


> I am over the moon happy all of your questions are now in this thread, and not spread hay wire in separate threads all around the forum.
> 
> Here's to more riding videos!




I am, too. I like this as a journal thread because journals are more about the personal journey and I think it's important to remind myself at times that this is Hoofpic's journey and no one else's. I think at this point all most of us want is to see him succeed.


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## Hoofpic

I think i did good today in my ride. 

Drafty, the 10ft reins really helped.


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## Hoofpic

The new reins were great. I rode the lesson mare for 30mins today or just under and my mare for 15. We worked on my body control on both horses. Trainer taught me a very interesting excersize in controlling a horses walk and trot.

I just used the standard 8ft leather join rein on the lesson mare and the 10ft ones on my mare cause I wanted to compare. Right away I noticed the extra benefit in having the 2 extra feet on my mare. THough I still dont understand how im able to ride a much longer horse in the lesson mare with shorter reins. Doesnt make sense to me.

My coach didnt think I needed the 10ft reins and she wasnt a fan of them when she rode my mare but she said whatever I prefer and makes me most comfortable. She has really started to win me over in the past week.

Im very glad that Im riding more because over the past week alone I have started to have even more faith in my riding coach.

Im a bit embarassed cause it took me some time to get the lesson mare to trot (had to use a crop) which has never happened (so dont mind the first couple mins of the video). She is in heat and has been in a really sour mood lately. I noticed her mood right away and was second guessing if this was a good day to ride her.

I brought both of them in, brushed them, picked their feet, saddled them. Then untacked after, brushed, cleaned their feet again and dried them off after and put them back out. Its a lot of work when you have to get 2 horses ready but it was a great experience for me because I got to work on my timing, making sure both horses were tacked and ready to go 15mins before my lesson start time.

Im pretty happy with myself knowing and capable of fully tacking up a horse and untacking them on my own. This is something that Ive always found a bit overwhelming when I first got my mare but I learn quick. Plus it makes it easy on my coach because she can help others while I tack up and untack, and put the horses back out. All she has to do is be with me when im in the arena.

The lesson mare and Fly are neighbours at their water trough that they share but they dont know each other that well. My mare has shown interest in getting to know the lesson mare but I think shes a bit timid when I take her in/out of the field and the lesson mare is nearby.


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## Hoofpic

Forgot to add this to the post before.

More about my coach. Im a bigger fan of her today than I was a week ago. Noticably bigger. Not that I wasnt a fan of her then, but obviously having ridden my mare 4 times in the past 8 days, I have gotten to take in more of her coaching in a shorter amount of time. Remember, up until this past week, I have been riding ONCE A WEEK. Thats it. So going from that to all of a sudden going to 4 times in 8 days is pretty much going from casual mode to rapid mode. Its a pretty big jump. But boy has it sure been fun. If I want to become a competant rider on a green horse, I need to ride more than once a week. Cause there is no way that I would be able to progress like I would by riding my mare just once a week. My coach still insists on me keeping it to twice a week for now and see how I do. Just because I progressed so well on the lesson mare at once a week for 2.5 months, then a 4 month break, then once a week again for 2 more months.

The quicker I can make my core stronger, the quicker I will become better.


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## evilamc

Just throwing this idea out there about the reins.

On your lesson horse you may be comfortable with the 8ft reins because its a trained horse, she may carry herself better and shes probably more used to newbie riders bumping on her face so kinda ignores it. Where with your mare, if you bump on her face she doesn't like it and tries to stretch awayyyy from it. She may like the "freedom" she feels having more rein to have her head and that you may not be bumping on her/leaning on the reins as much since they're longer...and you're giving her more slack.

Just an idea....and a not very well worded one...I see it in my head but I'm not good at putting it in words as to why the length makes a difference lol!


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## bsms

Horses just wanting food and shelter: I'm pretty sure Cowboy and Trooper could live happily ever after in my corral, as long as they got food, water, and shelter. I'm equally certain Bandit is bored and enjoys getting out...preferably, out of our little arena as well. I think he enjoys movement and doing things. Mia was like that also.

I suspect reins are kind of like stirrups. A few weeks ago, I decided I'd try shortening my stirrups 3 holes to get closer to the length people say is right. Part way into the first ride, I dropped them one hole. Today, I dropped them 2 more, back to where they were. I'm not saying where they are now is right for anyone else but me...but darn it, it felt GOOD today. I could barely feel them - and with MY tendency to brace against stirrups, that works.

Reins are about communication, so how the horse carries itself and how it wants to be communicated with plays a role.


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## greentree

Evilamc is on the right track...as Fly starts to give to the bit, instead of sticking her nose out, those 10 ft reins are going to seem WAY longer.....


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Evilamc is on the right track...as Fly starts to give to the bit, instead of sticking her nose out, *those 10 ft reins are going to seem WAY longer.*....


which is a good thing no?


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## gottatrot

Better to have more reins than you need rather than not enough, IMO.


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## gypsygirl

I can tell you that I haven't ridden my horses due to being pregnant since August 24th! Got the okay to ride next week ! Two of my horses are fine, the mare on the other hand, has been tortured since day one. She doesn't even like one day off a week and I ride her 7 days a week practically year round (usually the coldest part of winter I ride 5 days a week). Even now that they are on lush grass she runs up to the gate to come out. She is much happier and more relaxed after she works.


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## Dehda01

Don't forget that there are many out of the saddle exercises to strengthen your core and improve your riding. I am constantly having to remind my self that my planks, TRX and cardio are all for the good of my riding. And they really are!!! It can be shocking how planks can strengthen the core fairly quickly. But riding is a fine balance between strength, balance and mental strength. You must keep all in check. 

You are doing great, and improving rapidly. But the body can only learn muscle memory so fast, and that can sometimes feel frustrating. Keep it up! Sit back and have fun.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Better to have more reins than you need rather than not enough, IMO.


True, I saw it yesterday. Glad I picked up the 10ft ones.


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## Hoofpic

gypsygirl said:


> I can tell you that I haven't ridden my horses due to being pregnant since August 24th! Got the okay to ride next week ! Two of my horses are fine, the mare on the other hand, has been tortured since day one. She doesn't even like one day off a week and I ride her 7 days a week practically year round (usually the coldest part of winter I ride 5 days a week). Even now that they are on lush grass she runs up to the gate to come out. She is much happier and more relaxed after she works.


I always thought you can still ride when you are pregnant?

Well you are lucky to have a mare who likes to work.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Don't forget that there are many out of the saddle exercises to strengthen your core and improve your riding. I am constantly having to remind my self that my planks, TRX and cardio are all for the good of my riding. And they really are!!! It can be shocking how planks can strengthen the core fairly quickly. But riding is a fine balance between strength, balance and mental strength. You must keep all in check.
> 
> You are doing great, and improving rapidly. But the body can only learn muscle memory so fast, and that can sometimes feel frustrating. Keep it up! Sit back and have fun.


Thanks, I will have to look into these excersizes. Trainer says even if i I spend 4mins a day doing them, it will help. I find 4mins too little, I would spend no less than 15mins a day IMO.


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## tjtalon

Hoofpic, this is what I have: Rodeo Core core strengthening machine. Was only $120-ish as I recall. Works for me. Being older, I do do it a little at a time. (Trick is to actually use one's core to move the thing [it goes in a small elliptical movement] & not use one's feet on the foot rests).


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## tjtalon

(Found it on Amazon).


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## tjtalon

PS the pad (actually, a cat bed) on the chair I put over the seat. Seat can be a little rough.


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## Dehda01

4 mins of planks is a lot. You will find out. You can rotate through doing sideplanks, regular (there are many variations), but they are hard and doing 60-90 secs is what you typically hold before moving on. It is a static exercise. I love TRX, and because it works your entire core while doing each exercise, I find it makes general improvement rapid. It is also 1 piece of equipment that you can do a multitude of variations of exercises on.


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## Dehda01

Sometimes the risks of falling are not worth taking, some people have had difficulty getting pregnant, some pregnancies are high risk, some horses are not trustworthy enough to ride. Some people ride while pregnant, some people don't. Don't ever question a person's personal decision. There can be A LOT of very PERSONAL factors. Be kind. 



Hoofpic said:


> I always thought you can still ride when you are pregnant?
> 
> Well you are lucky to have a mare who likes to work.


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## Prairie

Considering how long it took you to even mount your mare, perhaps you shouldn't question why a pregnant woman isn't riding. You have a lot to work on for as many lessons as you've had and claims of having good balance and a straight back----every video shows a rider who is out of synch with the horse bouncing like a sack of potatoes, pulling on the mare's face. Worry about your own riding instead of questioning another.


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## Hoofpic

Loving this obstacle clinic. I finally found a vitamin and mineral supplement in pelleted form. I got a sample and a 3 month supple tub. Im confident my mare will eat it simply cause its grain form.

Also seeing if I can have one of the pallettes here to take to the barn.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Sometimes the risks of falling are not worth taking, some people have had difficulty getting pregnant, some pregnancies are high risk, some horses are not trustworthy enough to ride. Some people ride while pregnant, some people don't. Don't ever question a person's personal decision. There can be A LOT of very PERSONAL factors. Be kind.


Im not questioning anyone. I didnt know that otherwise I wouldnt have asked.

Prairie needs to chill out.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Im not questioning anyone. I didnt know that otherwise I wouldnt have asked.
> 
> Prairie needs to chill out.



OK, this is your journal, and you have the power to control it, one HUGE piece of advice, you do not have to address everything, and sometimes it is better just to move on. Comments like this is how things can escalate, from very innocuous beginnings. 

I always thought you can still ride when you are pregnant?

Sounds like it is a long held belief, rather than "Oh, can't you ride while you are pregnant?" which is more of a question.


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## Dehda01

Infertility and pregnancy are hot topics for many women. It is a sensitive subject that many woman have had to go through. You never want to cause damage to a child and horses are inherently dangerous, even the calmest ones. I have fallen off walking on my "safest" horse and am a very experienced rider when she tripped and tumbled. Accidents happen.


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## Hoofpic

I didnt mean to offend anyone. My writing isnt the best so when I write what Im thinking, sometimes im not accurate.

Sent from my C6806 using Tapatalk


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## Dehda01

Good answer.


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## Hoofpic

Thanks Dehda. I didnt mean any harm.

Anyways, I got a bit bit for Fly. After the bit clinic I was convinced. So I got a D ring, sweet iron, with a single break so it puts no pressure on her tongue. Its a Miler. Bit more than I was wanting to spend but I figure a bit is not sonething you buy too often and I think its just as important as a good cinch and pad.


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## Hoofpic

Heres the new bit


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## gottatrot

That should be a good bit for you. I finally got a Myler a couple months ago and it's a very nice bit.

Glad you escaped with your life after wandering onto the minefield of maternal feelings. It's taken me years to figure out I'm missing a critical part of DNA that gives women strong, protective feelings toward babies and pregnant women. They can turn on you in an instant, fangs bared if you say the wrong thing. Word of advice: Don't compare their feelings to how you feel about your new puppy. Also, even though babies are ugly, just pretend they are cute.

I ran into a woman I hadn't seen in a few years at work. She asked if I had kids, and I said no. Then I asked if she still had her dogs she used to have. She said yes, and how great they were. I said, "Who needs kids anyway?" (Not that I think animals are kids, but it was just something stupid I said). Three women turned on me and laid into me. I thought I was going to die.


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## Hoofpic

New vitamin and mineral supplement in pellet form


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> That should be a good bit for you. I finally got a Myler a couple months ago and it's a very nice bit.
> 
> Glad you escaped with your life after wandering onto the minefield of maternal feelings. It's taken me years to figure out I'm missing a critical part of DNA that gives women strong, protective feelings toward babies and pregnant women. They can turn on you in an instant, fangs bared if you say the wrong thing. Word of advice: Don't compare their feelings to how you feel about your new puppy. Also, even though babies are ugly, just pretend they are cute.
> 
> I ran into a woman I hadn't seen in a few years at work. She asked if I had kids, and I said no. Then I asked if she still had her dogs she used to have. She said yes, and how great they were. I said, "Who needs kids anyway?" (Not that I think animals are kids, but it was just something stupid I said). Three women turned on me and laid into me. I thought I was going to die.


The bit was pricey but I will say thay bit clinic today was so beneficial. I should have got a D ring snaffle last time. Im wondering if that with the sweet iron will have an effect on my mare. Talked with the bit expert and i was glad i attended it.

I wasnt escaping from any comments earlier today, I was at a clinic all day. All i know is, my apologies if i offended anyone, it was not my intention.


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## DraftyAiresMum

My gelding loves his sweet iron and copper snaffle. He prefers loose ring over D-ring, though.


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## Golden Horse

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My gelding loves his sweet iron and copper snaffle. He prefers loose ring over D-ring, though.



:rofl: Ah the joy of horses, Hoofpic, don't be disappointed if she doesn't like your choice of bit....the one thing I know for sure about horses, they don't always like what you think will be best for them. My Arab mare HATED loose rings with a passion, Gibbs, well I tried so many bits on him before giving up and trying a loose ring, which he of course loved.....go figure. He rejected my expensive Myler bits, and everything else I tried....


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> :rofl: Ah the joy of horses, Hoofpic, don't be disappointed if she doesn't like your choice of bit....the one thing I know for sure about horses, they don't always like what you think will be best for them. My Arab mare HATED loose rings with a passion, Gibbs, well I tried so many bits on him before giving up and trying a loose ring, which he of course loved.....go figure. He rejected my expensive Myler bits, and everything else I tried....


Well right now she has loose ring with single break and a copper ball. Shes not overly crazy about it. She plays with the ball far too much and the bit expert suggested I get a bit without the copper ball. The new one still has a roller but its different.

Not sure how different sweet iron is compared to brass but she said that most horses will like sweet iron. Its like a life saver in their mouth and it encourages them to suck on it. Im sure brass does as well.

But when she said that a D ring gives much better lateral signals ques and distributes the pressure more evenly when there is pressure than a loose ring where it its more pressure is on one spot, i was sold.

Plus it shoukd sit better in my mare mout
fly was always constantly fumbling with the loose ring.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Never heard of a brass bit. Nickle or stainless steel, yes. But not brass.

My sweet iron bit is black. I got it for $35 on Amazon.

I've tried six different bits on my gelding. He outgrew his absolute favorite and I couldn't get it in a bigger size. Ordered something similar in a bigger size and they sent me the wrong bit. Turned out that he liked the one they sent me, so I let sleeping dogs lie, so to speak.


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## Hoofpic

I fixed my mares problem with her picking up her feet about 1.5 months ago. Im sure many of you can remember me bringing this up with you a few months back if not longer. Ever since this time in the video, she now picks up the first time I ask and picks up softly. No more pawing motion.

The secret was not rubbing her on her tummy after she picks up her foot and I have it in my hand and up (too long of a delay), but the second that foot comes off the ground when i ask for it, is when i praised her. Ever since this time, she has been a much different horse in picking up her feet.

She has learned to become more patient in when I clean her feet because sometimes it takes me a good 3 solid minutes just to clean one since her are pretty high maintenance when it comes to picking them compared to other horses.


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## Hoofpic

tjtalon said:


> Hoofpic, this is what I have: Rodeo Core core strengthening machine. Was only $120-ish as I recall. Works for me. Being older, I do do it a little at a time. (Trick is to actually use one's core to move the thing [it goes in a small elliptical movement] & not use one's feet on the foot rests).


Where would I buy something like that?


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## Hoofpic

Got to the barn this morning for a quick stop and the herd were all laying down. Got a pic of Fly and her best friend. These two are so close. Photos like these suck because if you get up close to the fence to get rid of the fence in the images, the horses will get up and there goes your shot.


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## greentree

Those Mylers come apart in the middle at the most inopportune times......


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Those Mylers come apart in the middle at the most inopportune times......


Can you tell me more? Did you own a pair? You are worrying me now.


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## Hoofpic

I got some good news. I took a couple wood pallettes to the barn today from the clinic. I just need to pick up a couple sheets of plywood in the morning and long screws so I can drill them on top of the pallete tomorrow. Im so happy. I have a new obstacle to work with, yay!

Was told to get builders plywood, its the cheapest.


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## greentree

I have several Mylers. One Kimberwicke, one similar to what you got, and two driving bits. A former driving colleague was using his when it came apart. I was not on the carriage when it happened, but he showed me the bit, and he could snap it together and pull it back apart. 

Just a little heads up....when you meet these people at clinics and trade shows, their stuff (or their method) ALWAYS works miracles. always. Learning to nod, say thank you, and move on will save you a LOT of money, and keep you from needing to rent storage space for all your unused horse stuff!


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I have several Mylers. One Kimberwicke, one similar to what you got, and two driving bits. A former driving colleague was using his when it came apart. I was not on the carriage when it happened, but he showed me the bit, and he could snap it together and pull it back apart.
> 
> Just a little heads up....when you meet these people at clinics and trade shows, their stuff (or their method) ALWAYS works miracles. always. Learning to nod, say thank you, and move on will save you a LOT of money, and keep you from needing to rent storage space for all your unused horse stuff!


Thanks. Im worried now. Should I return this bit or just keep it? How many Mylers do you have? No problems with yours?

The bit expert actually didnt sell me on the Myler bit specifically. When I showed it to her, she said to see if I could find something cheaper but similar. But the store didnt so I figured I would just get it. She was a great lady and she is good friends with the BO.


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## Hoofpic

My ride from Friday.

Not sure why its only 360p in the embedded video again. Click the title and watch it on youtube and its much much clearer.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. Im worried now. Should I return this bit or just keep it? How many Mylers do you have? No problems with yours?
> 
> The bit expert actually didnt sell me on the Myler bit specifically. When I showed it to her, she said to see if I could find something cheaper but similar. But the store didnt so I figured I would just get it. She was a great lady and she is good friends with the BO.


I have mostly Mylers & have never had a problem. Lots of people I know use them too without incident. 
I suppose as with any product there could be a failure but I think if there was a common problem with Mylers we sure would have heard of it. Horse people aren't shy about outing an inferior product especially a pricey one. I'll continue to use mine without worry.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I have mostly Mylers & have never had a problem. Lots of people I know use them too without incident.
> I suppose as with any product there could be a failure but I think if there was a common problem with Mylers we sure would have heard of it. Horse people aren't shy about outing an inferior product especially a pricey one. I'll continue to use mine without worry.


Thanks for the re-assurance. I guess its worth taking a chance on, like everything else. I didnt want to make another trip back to the store unless I had to.

Do Myler at least have a good warranty that they will honour?

Im really curious to see how my mare takes this bit and if it has a positive effect and difference on her. I think she will play with it a lot less and this is what I want. If she responds t o it even better than the previous, even better. I will hold onto the old one just in case.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks for the re-assurance. I guess its worth taking a chance on, like everything else. I didnt want to make another trip back to the store unless I had to.
> 
> Do Myler at least have a good warranty that they will honour?
> 
> Im really curious to see how my mare takes this bit and if it has a positive effect and difference on her. I think she will play with it a lot less and this is what I want. If she responds t o it even better than the previous, even better. I will hold onto the old one just in case.


That's how bit collections start:wink:
I don't know about warranties but if I had a freak break I would be quick to send it to the company & expect some kind of answer.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> That's how bit collections start:wink:
> I don't know about warranties but if I had a freak break I would be quick to send it to the company & expect some kind of answer.


How many Myler bits do you have? I'm guessing you have used yours for awhile now?

I'm wonder what Greentree's colleague did when his broke.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> How many Myler bits do you have? I'm guessing you have used yours for awhile now?
> 
> I'm wonder what Greentree's colleague did when his broke.


I don't know for sure, at least 4. 
Yes, most of mine I've had for a number of years. As you get older you tend to forget years.


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## Dehda01

I have at least 6 Myler bits that I have rotated through my herd of horses over the last 15+ years. Ranging from 1-15yrs old. I haven't had any problems. But some people have. Any time there is a joint there is a weak link. I have had cheap snaffles break in half, it was an exciting day...

Not every horse likes every bit... Even if you expect they will. They can veto any bit, by sometimes it also mean ls more schooling... And it can be a fine line knowing he difference. 

I personally don't like a loose ring bit for green horses or green riders, I prefer a fixed ring bit. The loose ring can rely much information to the mouth and that can be overwhelming to many horses. A fixed ring can dull that slightly and help steering.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I don't know for sure, at least 4.
> Yes, most of mine I've had for a number of years. As you get older you tend to forget years.


Thank you. How come you guys have so many?

Im guessibg it depends on the activity that you are doing?


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I have at least 6 Myler bits that I have rotated through my herd of horses over the last 15+ years. Ranging from 1-15yrs old. I haven't had any problems. But some people have. Any time there is a joint there is a weak link. I have had cheap snaffles break in half, it was an exciting day...
> 
> Not every horse likes every bit... Even if you expect they will. They can veto any bit, by sometimes it also mean ls more schooling... And it can be a fine line knowing he difference.
> 
> I personally don't like a loose ring bit for green horses or green riders, I prefer a fixed ring bit. The loose ring can rely much information to the mouth and that can be overwhelming to many horses. A fixed ring can dull that slightly and help steering.


Thanks. From what i was told a green rider or green horse or a sensitive horse should use a dring and only a rider with light hands should ride in loose rings( Which im obviously not.)


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## Dehda01

That can be a very simplified version of it. And one I won't confuse you more by expanding on at this point.

A d-ring is a good general side of a bit for you, some of the mylers are made for a very responsive horse and that may be too much for her and you at this point, but it may work well. It can be a stabilizing bit for many horses. But it also is a fairly thin mouthpiece. 

And the thinner the mouthpiece- the more pressure on the bars vs spread over a wider surface of a wider thickness.


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## sarahfromsc

Dehda01 said:


> I have at least 6 Myler bits that I have rotated through my herd of horses over the last 15+ years. Ranging from 1-15yrs old. I haven't had any problems. But some people have. Any time there is a joint there is a weak link. I have had cheap snaffles break in half, it was an exciting day..
> 
> 
> Not every horse likes every bit... Even if you expect they will. They can veto any bit, by sometimes it also mean ls more schooling... And it can be a fine line knowing he difference.
> 
> I personally don't like a loose ring bit for green horses or green riders, I prefer a fixed ring bit. The loose ring can rely much information to the mouth and that can be overwhelming to many horses. A fixed ring can dull that slightly and help steering.



I had a bit break pushing cattle in Wyoming. Thank goodness for leather strips, because that became my bit. A well trained horse can pretty much adapt to anything.


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## Dehda01

Yea... You are lucky you had a leather chin strap. 

Having that bit break on me has made me a EVEN more obsessive about double checking my tack. But leather can always wear out and metal can always break. Always double check for wear spots and dry rot!!!


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## sarahfromsc

When the bit snapped at the joint the chin strap was useless as well.

I was in thick scrub gathering cows whe I came out and noticed the bit dangling. So I step off, took the bit off the bridle and had four pieces of 12 inch leather strips. I cut it and braid three pieces together and attached that to the bridle and ran it through the horse's mouth. By then the real ranch hands came up to ask what the problem was so I told them. They were rather impressed I had the leather and had PACKED it from PA.

I may be a city slicker, but I am not completely naive......lolol


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## Dehda01

Yes, but it gave you something to pull against the horses neck...


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## sarahfromsc

:iagree:
I totally give credit to the horse and the person that trained him. Certainly was not my riding abilities!


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## Hoofpic

I got my bridge built! So happy! Well two pallettes and they connect. Will introduce my mare to it on tues.


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## Hoofpic

I will admit, I was missing my outside trainer this afternoon when I was working with my mare. I will just need to adapt being without her by my side. I think the toughest thing is that I dont have anyone to ask questions when I need to when handling my mare. 

Today I was working on teaching my mare something new but I dont know if it was effective or not. I dont know if my ques were dinstinctive enough for my mare to tell apart. Basically I want to teach my mare to not put her head down for grass unless I give her the que that she is allowed to. So what I did was the Warwick Schiller method (I cant show it because its in his video libary that you need a membership for).

Warwick says the #1 thing that you do NOT want to do is pull their head up, as I already know its completely ineffective. You're just nagging the horse. Almost everyone I see does this and every single time, the horse will try it again. So Ive been looking for another method.

What he did in his video was he would give lots of slack in the lead with the horse. When that horse would put their head down, he swings and and snaps the lead horizontally so the horse puts their head back up. After a few times the horse will know not to put their head down for grass.

I did just that today and my mare caught on. But I said to myself, I need to teach her a que on when I let her eat grass. So I figured how about if I use both my hands and arms and raise my arms a bit with the lead in it and lower them dropping the whole lead (except the very end of it) on the ground and say "eat time" (thats the verbal que I came up with), then she will know I am letting her put her head down for grass. It took about 5 times today or repeating this with her today for her to pick up on it solidly. And to get her to stop, I just give light pressure on the lead and her head comes up. 

She is not allowed to put her head down again unless I give her the physical que again. I make sure to be quite animated about it to make sure its obvious for her.

I think she picked up on it but Im not 100% sure if my ques are disctinctive enough.

But I have other great news! I got her much more willing and softer in doing lateral flexions. Still not perfect but a lot better. Today was the first time I worked with her on flexions in about 3 weeks.

I can at least get her head to start half way through the flexion without any pull in the lead. She doesnt always respond right away but I went back to basics and I would give her the physical que. As soon as her head turned that direction even the slightest amount, I release pressure and scratch her. Today we only did 4 or 5 on each side and the next time I work on this with her, hopefully I can ask more from her and get her to give me more distance through the flexion with zero pull


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## DraftyAiresMum

You know if it worked if you try tomorrow and she remembers. ;-)


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You know if it worked if you try tomorrow and she remembers. ;-)


I didnt see a lick and chew. And this is why I was always so reminded to wait for the lick and chew. But also, my mare and I can get bored if we just stand around too long inbetween each time I do it. My outside trainer always harped on me for allowing enough time inbetween each time I repeat something when teaching my mare something, but also because she is an extrovert, I need to able work at a faster pace (and more importantly know when to) so that she doesnt get bored.

This is where I missed the outside trainer. If she was there, she could have answered my questions on the spot. 

I dont have the ability to be able to pick up a horses body language on when I can start picking up the pace.


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## KigerQueen

trust me my gelding picks crap up (some things i want him to and some i dont) and he hardly licks and chews. and sometimes when he licks and chews he is going to promptly forget it. so they can still learn things without the licking and chewing. sometimes it it just something that dose not involve deep thinking. sometimes they are thinking of other things lol (at least with my gelding).


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## Hoofpic

KigerQueen said:


> trust me my gelding picks crap up (some things i want him to and some i dont) and he hardly licks and chews. and sometimes when he licks and chews he is going to promptly forget it. so they can still learn things without the licking and chewing. sometimes it it just something that dose not involve deep thinking. sometimes they are thinking of other things lol (at least with my gelding).


So when do you know when to wait for the lick and chew and when you dont need to? 

I know for training, like groundwork, lick n chew is a must (according to past trainers).

Also, on Tues (or maybe tomorrow ill see), I will record myself on getting my mare to step on the bridge. I feel confident I can do it and with all the auditing that Ive done on trainers doing this exact same thing (whether it be with other objects etc, its still the same principle). And apply what i learned from it on my own.

When I was able to back up my mare through L shaped logs about over a month ago I was really happy about that. I will apply the exact same logic to the pallette. #1 rule is to be patient, very patient.


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## KigerQueen

when you are introducing something hard and complicated yes. i know my arab will lick and chew when she is really thinking (there is also some ear smoke lol). Odie... well he can be a hot mess but if he dose what i ask a cuple of times i quit. even if i feel like he had no idea what i was asking. then i will come back the next day and he will do it first try. so there is obviously some learning going on lol!






i had the hardest time getting odie to change direction. he would go backwards, sidepass around me in a circle and even lay down. here is the moment i FINALY got him to understand changing directions. i dont think there was any licking and chewing from him


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## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> I didnt see a lick and chew. And this is why I was always so reminded to wait for the lick and chew. But also, my mare and I can get bored if we just stand around too long inbetween each time I do it. My outside trainer always harped on me for allowing enough time inbetween each time I repeat something when teaching my mare something, but also because she is an extrovert, I need to able work at a faster pace (and more importantly know when to) so that she doesnt get bored.
> 
> This is where I missed the outside trainer. If she was there, she could have answered my questions on the spot.
> 
> I dont have the ability to be able to pick up a horses body language on when I can start picking up the pace.



it appears you are beginning to trust your own judgement on YOUR mare, and what works for her.

having a long time elapse between each time you ask them to repeat something is not necessary, certainly not each and every time you do it. if they do very well, then maybe a bit longer. but, you don't want the whole thing session to come to a complete halt while you are waiting for a certain amount of time to elapse. 

and, petting and scratching between each and ever try is not helpful in training, either. it serves as a distractant. you see, a horse's mind is always in the present. if the horse did well, recieved a release of pressure, the horse is dwelling in the place of associating the release of pressure with what JUST happened right before that .when you go petting on them every time to tell them they've done well, you bring their mind OFF of the that dwelling space and onto you, and since many horses are either not so keen on being petting, you are actually ever so slightly annoying them. or, in the case of an itchy horse, the hrose is so enamored of your petting on them, they do not in any way associate that with the original request you had. you actually interrupt their 'soaking' time by petting/scratching on them too much.

if they are getting good, and you don't need another repetition, THEN pet on them a bit, let them stand untouched, just resting for a bit, and when you see their mind go elsewhere, then go on to something else.


if you are not sure about training, if the hrose has done it good enough for you to quit, consider "Did you see a change?" ask yourself that, becuase training them is looking for a change in their behavior, and is usually a series of small changes, so look for a change, then reward by letting them do nothing for a bit.


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## Hoofpic

KigerQueen said:


> when you are introducing something hard and complicated yes. i know my arab will lick and chew when she is really thinking (there is also some ear smoke lol). Odie... well he can be a hot mess but if he dose what i ask a cuple of times i quit. even if i feel like he had no idea what i was asking. then i will come back the next day and he will do it first try. so there is obviously some learning going on lol!
> 
> Training Brake though! - YouTube
> 
> i had the hardest time getting odie to change direction. he would go backwards, sidepass around me in a circle and even lay down. here is the moment i FINALY got him to understand changing directions. i dont think there was any licking and chewing from him


Oh thats a nice demonstration, great job on it! Your boy has such a nice sharp yield on the HQ. 

Does he normally lick and chew on other things you work on him with?

You mentioned sidepassing and since you did...guess what? I worked on sidepassing with my mare for the very first time today and she has a really nice sidepass. All I did was stand at her barrel facing her barrel and swung the end of the lead, tapping her very lightly to start on her barrel. As soon as the front feet crossed and the back feet followed I stopped and praised her. She gave me 3 really good sidepasses from her strong side, then when I went to her weaker side, same thing, she sidepassed just as well and gave me 3 nice ones in a row. I was very impressed by her. I asked a total of 6 times and she gave me a nice sidepass each time.

Immediately I thought, gee I wish I had this on tape so I could see my outside trainer see it. Sidepassing was the next thing that we were going to work on. So there you go, my sidepassing lesson in about 4mins and I saved myself $50


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> it appears you are beginning to trust your own judgement on YOUR mare, and what works for her.
> 
> having a long time elapse between each time you ask them to repeat something is not necessary, certainly not each and every time you do it. if they do very well, then maybe a bit longer. but, you don't want the whole thing session to come to a complete halt while you are waiting for a certain amount of time to elapse.
> 
> and, petting and scratching between each and ever try is not helpful in training, either. it serves as a distractant. you see, a horse's mind is always in the present. if the horse did well, recieved a release of pressure, the horse is dwelling in the place of associating the release of pressure with what JUST happened right before that .when you go petting on them every time to tell them they've done well, you bring their mind OFF of the that dwelling space and onto you, and since many horses are either not so keen on being petting, you are actually ever so slightly annoying them. or, in the case of an itchy horse, the hrose is so enamored of your petting on them, they do not in any way associate that with the original request you had. you actually interrupt their 'soaking' time by petting/scratching on them too much.
> 
> if they are getting good, and you don't need another repetition, THEN pet on them a bit, let them stand untouched, just resting for a bit, and when you see their mind go elsewhere, then go on to something else.
> 
> 
> if you are not sure about training, if the hrose has done it good enough for you to quit, consider "Did you see a change?" ask yourself that, becuase training them is looking for a change in their behavior, and is usually a series of small changes, so look for a change, then reward by letting them do nothing for a bit.


But every trainer that Ive audited and learned from, worked with said to reward for each effort they give especially just as they are learning it. For instance, what are your thoughts on sacking out a horse to the big arena ball by rolling it towards them so that it touches them with the ball on the ground? 

Do you think its a detramental way in sacking out a horse?

The trainer yesterday at the clinic did rewards each time. 

For instance when I backed up my mare through two narrow logs parrelel to each other, what I did was stand at her side by her nose. I would first walk her through the logs a couple times. Then I would at first walk her a tad bit inbetween the logs (but not far enough in for her to step on the logs), then swing her HQ around so her butt is going in. Then I would have us stand there for a bit, then ask for one stepp backwards with the least amount of pressure on the lead. As soon as she steps back, I release pressure and reward. Then wait a tiny bit and when I felt we were ready, I would ask again for another step. Rinse and repeat. Then after a few of the 1 steps. I would ask for 2 steps. I only had to ask for 2 steps once and the next time she was backing up on her own with zero pressure on the lead and just from my body language in walking towards her. 

When I do the pallette, I think im going to set up the tarp as well and perhaps some logs. Id love to show you guys.

Hopefully I can show you in my next video what Ive been taught from past trainers and all this auditing that Ive been doing over the past few months.


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## Hoofpic

Heres something that Ive always wanted to ask you guys that my outside trainer taught me on the first day seeing her. 

She taught me to never ever scratch or rub any horse on their withers with 1) your palm of your hand and 2) you facing them. Because its confrontational and in their face.

She said the correct way to do it is to turn away from them (so your shoulder is away from them) and rub their withers with the back of your hand.

What do you guys think about this?


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## ChristineNJ

elle1959 said:


> I think it's okay to just be straightforward. You could simply tell her that you don't think the relationship is working out and that you won't be continuing. You don't have to provide additional details. I know it's hard to be blunt sometimes, we want to cushion the blow because we're told all the time that we need to be nice and protect others' feelings, but sometimes you just have to yank the band-aid off quickly because it's less painful in the long run.


I agree with Elle. Don't provide any details. Just say the relationship is not working out and don't get into a long discussion because she will to talk you out of stopping. Say thanks for everything and just say "Gotta run, good bye". Personally, I would say "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." (I was one of the ones that thought she was taking advantage of you) I'm glad you are finally getting rid of her! :icon_rolleyes:


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## Hoofpic

ChristineNJ said:


> I agree with Elle. Don't provide any details. Just say the relationship is not working out and don't get into a long discussion because she will to talk you out of stopping. Say thanks for everything and just say "Gotta run, good bye". Personally, I would say "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." (I was one of the ones that thought she was taking advantage of you) I'm glad you are finally getting rid of her! :icon_rolleyes:


I know she didnt have many fans on here but I still think she is a great person and I know she wasnt taking advantage of me. Shes not that kind of person. Its just with her Parelli style, she has ridiculously high expectations for all horses when it comes to groundwork. I just dont like burning bridges, cause afterall the horse world is small.


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## KigerQueen

Good job!!! sometimes you just need one step thwn build from there. i might have a vid of my mare where im "plying" with her too at liberty. and no i rarely see licking or chewing from him unless he is eating something lol (or trying to at least).

here is a vid a dug up. not the best of what i can get her to do but its the only one thats good. most the vids i have are of her goofing off and im not asking much of her. pretty much of this vid but she was more for playing and wanted to "work"


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## tinyliny

I didn't say not to reward them with each try they make. I said not to go all petting on them every single time.
the best reward to them is to allow them to just stand, unbothered, for a bit.

you might put your hand or your stick quietly on each time after they've complied, and rub if you are doing something really phyysical on them , like flagging them over in very close quarters , or applying some really big pressure on them if they are dulled out, and you want them to know that the item you are using as a tool on them (which may have been scary to them) is just an item. by rubbing on them after they done what you asked with the tool, you show them that it is your body language INTENTION that was transmitted with the tool, not the tool itslef. so, you are both flagging them big with it, then softly rubbing them with it, with a completely different intention in your body.

I know that Parelli and CA both rub the horse with the stick, after they have applied any kind of real push on it, to kind of 'rub out' the pressure.


I think all that is far from the level you are working at. 

my real point is to not overly pet the horse after everything. they don't like it, and it will create a horse that is too close and too muggy on you.


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## KigerQueen

here slightly better one of my doing round pen work with my mare. you can see she likes it more and is more in tune with me. odie wants do chase butter flies and puppy dogs all day so two very different horses.


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## KigerQueen

^ YES! the paint was raised by my fiance and loved on quite a bit. its not a bad thing but my fiance and him literal lean on each other and push each other. its how they are. me not so much. so im dealing with a horse who is pushy and has a major "step mom" complex with me. he will jump over the moon for my fiance. he wont even stand still for me -_-'. i love on the horse after im done and the halter is off. when i was loving on the paint it was because he gets WAY to amped with Clinton Anderson (hence why i no longer do ca with him). my mare loves me but dose not want me to touch her lol! so both are polar opposite there too.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> by rubbing on them after they done what you asked with the tool, you show them that it is your body language INTENTION that was transmitted with the tool, not the tool itslef. so, you are both flagging them big with it, then softly rubbing them with it, with a completely different intention in your body.


What do you mean by this?



> I know that Parelli and CA both rub the horse with the stick, after they have applied any kind of real push on it, to kind of 'rub out' the pressure.
> 
> 
> I think all that is far from the level you are working at.


Im not sure if its far from the level Im working at cause Ive seen enough of it with my own eyes to know what you mean when you first mentioned this.



> my real point is to not overly pet the horse after everything. they don't like it, and it will create a horse that is too close and too muggy on you.



True. I just wish Ive seen some trainers who dont pet after each time as a reward.


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## Elana

Hoofpic said:


> A bit OT but do you guys think that horses (for the most part field owners) who arent handled often, arent ridden get sad or depressed about this? Do you think they know that they dont have a "caretaker" for them who doesnt come to halter them, work with them, brush them?
> 
> I know ideally horses just care about food, water and safety but I would think that stuff beyond that (grooming etc) eventually does play a factor. Ive heard some possible long term effects, no handling can have on a horse and just curious if it can affect them mentally.
> 
> Even though they are out in the field and are in a herd. I would think that horses know when they see me go in and catch my mare often and see the other boarder go and catch her mare as well. But these two boys are field horses and the only time they come out of the field is when they get their feet trimmed.
> 
> Reason I ask is because I am the person who spends the most amount of time in their field so Im the one person who interacts with these two boys the most. Whether im hanging out with them or doing whatever. So these two boys have become really attached to me. First it started with one but over the past few weeks Ive started to notice the other gelding start to get noticably more attached to me.
> 
> I give them some attention, rubs, scratches when I go in the field and my BO doesnt mind it (theyre technically his horses), but lately they have been wanting a lot of attention from me. One gets jealous when he sees me give my mare attention and when my mare sees me give either of them attention, she gets jealous and will try to come up as well. But because she is below these two in the herd, she cant push them around. So next thing you know all 3 are standing next to me wanting attention. These two boys are very respectful of my space every time I enter the herd and if they do get in my space I can easily move their feet with very minimal pressure.
> 
> But I wonder if they are a bit sad because they are looking for that leader. They are looking for someone to brush and groom them.


No they do not. 
Horses do not need people if they have other horses. 

No matter what sort of relationship you have with any horse, that same horse will kill you quick is that, see you dead on the ground, sniff you.. maybe paw you.. and then go back to eating. 

My Father worked at a livery stable when he was a kid (1930's). Brought a horse there carrots every time he came to the barn (Jim Dandy was the horse). That horse would dump a paying customer when he heard my Dad anywhere on the place. They had a relationship born of carrots. 

One day Dad was out riding Jim Dandy. They hit a patch of loose deep sand and the horse tripped and fell, wrenching a shoulder in the process. Horse was 3 legged at that point.. and it was a good thing. Dad was hung up on the saddle (Dad was 8 years old). Jim wanted to run, but could not (3 legged lame). So.. the horse took to trying to kick my Father who was hanging off one side of the saddle. If my Father had been a little larger or a little lower, Jim would have killed him. If the horse had not wrenched a shoulder so he was 3 legged, he would have killed him. 

And that is what horses are. They are capable of killing you and you should never ever ever forget that. They are quite happy living without any human.


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## greentree

Lick and chew is thought to indicate a release of endorphins. It really has nothing to do with daily training. She may or may not do it, and it may or may not mean anything. 

Far as teaching the horse not to reach for grass, this is difficult to explain. In the presence of the LEADER! The horse may try once to eat the grass. The horse gets punished. The horse does not try to eat grass again. 

Before you try to teach an animal to differentiate between conflicting commands, you MUST have ONE perfected. If she is still trying to eat when you LEAD her, there is no way to teach her when it is OK to eat.


----------



## Elana

Hoofpic said:


> Heres something that Ive always wanted to ask you guys that my outside trainer taught me on the first day seeing her.
> 
> She taught me to never ever scratch or rub any horse on their withers with 1) your palm of your hand and 2) you facing them. Because its confrontational and in their face.
> 
> She said the correct way to do it is to turn away from them (so your shoulder is away from them) and rub their withers with the back of your hand.
> 
> What do you guys think about this?


This is what I would call over thinking things.

Standing sideways to a horse is non confrontation. Facing them and making eye contact is confrontational. If you are working around a horse, such as grooming and so forth, you need to face the horse. You need to watch the horse if for no other reason than to be able to get out of the way if they suddenly move. Which side of your hand you pet the horse with is immaterial and is REALLY over thinking. 

I trained with very little petting the horse. A single stroke on the neck when taking a break sitting on them was about it. 

Training is really simple. It is the application of pressure and the release of pressure at exactly the correct time. Pressure, both positive and negative, creates stress and stress can be both positive and negative. 

The way to learn horse body language is to sit outside a pasture or paddock (NOT interacting with the horses in the paddock) and watch a bunch of horses interact with each other (especially at feeding time). You will see horses pressure each other and they will use no more pressure than necessary to get a response from another horse.


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## 6gun Kid

Ok I have a few things I want to touch on, but first things first. Good job, pal! You are still riding, still learning, and still listening. I, think I understand where you are coming from with the outside trainer, you connected with her, you liked her, and you don't want to upset her by firing her. Unfortunately sometimes you have to take the hard seat, if she truly is this "wonderful" person you think she is, she will take it in stride. Being hired and fired, is all in a days work for a trainer, and quite often without the benefit of an explanation. Just tell her, how grateful you are for all she has taught you but you are going in a different direction. I still think you are a little too deep in your head still, but that just seems to be your personality, and I know how that is, I tend to be the same on certain things too. Finally, rein length. My 2 cents, which at this point maybe entirely irrelevant with the Myler and 10 ft. reins. Go buy a 22 ft. mecate and a pair of slobber straps, then you can adjust the reins to whatever length you want and have a built in lead rope too boot, its how I ride all young horses in a snaffle. 
http://www.horseforum.com/members/41643/album/stuff-things-5375/mccarty-116314.jpg
here is how you tie it
Functional Horsemanship: Mecate with a Snaffle Bit
Anyways good job, dude. Keep it up!


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Heres something that Ive always wanted to ask you guys that my outside trainer taught me on the first day seeing her.
> 
> She taught me to never ever scratch or rub any horse on their withers with 1) your palm of your hand and 2) you facing them. Because its confrontational and in their face.
> 
> She said the correct way to do it is to turn away from them (so your shoulder is away from them) and rub their withers with the back of your hand.
> 
> What do you guys think about this?


I feel like with horses, 10% (probably less, actually) of horsemanship falls under the category of "you have to do it this way" and the other 90% falls under the category of "find what works best for the horse and you."

Most of us here understand that you take things very literal. To give your outside trainer the benefit of the doubt, I'll just assume she didn't know this about you.

And with the example you gave, the reasoning behind her rule seems silly to me. I know plenty of horses that don't care how or where you give them a scratch...they love it and it's not threatening in the least bit to them. A horse can see a big difference between someone who is calculating every move vs. someone acting natural when they handle the horse. 

Be a human around your horse, not a robot. She will like it better.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Lick and chew is thought to indicate a release of endorphins. It really has nothing to do with daily training. She may or may not do it, and it may or may not mean anything.
> 
> Far as teaching the horse not to reach for grass, this is difficult to explain. In the presence of the LEADER! The horse may try once to eat the grass. The horse gets punished. The horse does not try to eat grass again.
> 
> Before you try to teach an animal to differentiate between conflicting commands, you MUST have ONE perfected. If she is still trying to eat when you LEAD her, there is no way to teach her when it is OK to eat.


But if you make the ques disctinctive enough, shouldnt they be able to pick up on it?


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## Hoofpic

Elana said:


> This is what I would call over thinking things.
> 
> Standing sideways to a horse is non confrontation. Facing them and making eye contact is confrontational. If you are working around a horse, such as grooming and so forth, you need to face the horse. You need to watch the horse if for no other reason than to be able to get out of the way if they suddenly move. Which side of your hand you pet the horse with is immaterial and is REALLY over thinking.
> 
> I trained with very little petting the horse. A single stroke on the neck when taking a break sitting on them was about it.
> 
> Training is really simple. It is the application of pressure and the release of pressure at exactly the correct time. Pressure, both positive and negative, creates stress and stress can be both positive and negative.
> 
> The way to learn horse body language is to sit outside a pasture or paddock (NOT interacting with the horses in the paddock) and watch a bunch of horses interact with each other (especially at feeding time). You will see horses pressure each other and they will use no more pressure than necessary to get a response from another horse.


I do quite a bit of sitting in the herd to watch and learn herd behaviour. It is one of my favourite things to do at the barn. Ive learned a lot and to be honest I know that standing facing a horse with eye contact is confrontational but at an angle and its not. This is one thing that ive really engaged into my daily routine is making sure i use my body language more expressively with my mare.

But when my outside trainer kept harping me to turn my shoulder completely away from my mare after I halter her and greet her and only rub with the back of my hand, it was new to me.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Ok I have a few things I want to touch on, but first things first. Good job, pal! You are still riding, still learning, and still listening. I, think I understand where you are coming from with the outside trainer, you connected with her, you liked her, and you don't want to upset her by firing her. Unfortunately sometimes you have to take the hard seat, if she truly is this "wonderful" person you think she is, she will take it in stride. Being hired and fired, is all in a days work for a trainer, and quite often without the benefit of an explanation. Just tell her, how grateful you are for all she has taught you but you are going in a different direction. I still think you are a little too deep in your head still, but that just seems to be your personality, and I know how that is, I tend to be the same on certain things too. Finally, rein length. My 2 cents, which at this point maybe entirely irrelevant with the Myler and 10 ft. reins. Go buy a 22 ft. mecate and a pair of slobber straps, then you can adjust the reins to whatever length you want and have a built in lead rope too boot, its how I ride all young horses in a snaffle.
> http://www.horseforum.com/members/41643/album/stuff-things-5375/mccarty-116314.jpg
> here is how you tie it
> Functional Horsemanship: Mecate with a Snaffle Bit
> Anyways good job, dude. Keep it up!


Thanks.

I have yet to tell her yet, just been busy and don't want to bother her since she has company visiting her. So I will tell her when she contacts me next (which Id imagine would be sometime today or tomorrow) since her trainer is running a 1 day clinic at her place and she invited me to come audit for free.

I actually was going to go but that was before I made the decision of not continuing on with her anymore. Plus her trainer is a Parelli trainer so what good would it do for me.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I feel like with horses, 10% (probably less, actually) of horsemanship falls under the category of "you have to do it this way" and the other 90% falls under the category of "find what works best for the horse and you."
> 
> Most of us here understand that you take things very literal. To give your outside trainer the benefit of the doubt, I'll just assume she didn't know this about you.
> 
> And with the example you gave, the reasoning behind her rule seems silly to me. I know plenty of horses that don't care how or where you give them a scratch...they love it and it's not threatening in the least bit to them. A horse can see a big difference between someone who is calculating every move vs. someone acting natural when they handle the horse.
> 
> Be a human around your horse, not a robot. She will like it better.


I agree with you but when learning from her, the message she gave me all along was that I had to do things exactly her way or its wrong. Theres the Parelli logic right there. They really do believe that their way of teaching is catered to every horse. Which is not true because you know what? I have worked with enough trainers since working with her to know what has worked with my mare before and what currently works and I wasnt willing to completely change the way I do things that I already know just for her. If it works, dont change it.

She kept telling me that if you really want a truly soft willing horse (which of course is my ultimate goal), the only way is the Parelli way.

I will give an example. One lesson we were working on yielding my mares FQ and I knew how to do this but she said I had to use the carrot stick. So I did, in the lesson. Personally it makes no difference, but yes when working with a horse to yield their FQ, using a carrot stick can make it a bit easier cause it makes your que a bit more obvious and uncomfortable for them because there is a stick right in their face and if they try to resist, they get a sharp tap on the muzzle with that stick. 

But over time as they get better yielding their FQ, you should be able to just walk their way into their shoulder, and they automatically yield away from you. No different with their hind end and its EXACTLY like how its done in the field. Its all body language and driving them with your energy.

Well guess what, yesterday when working with my mare outside, I didnt use the carrot stick (I still had it with me, just on the ground) to yield her FQ, but I just put both my hands casually in front of me (not even palms up or open) and started walking towards her in tight circle and she yielded just as well. Now because her yielding from her right to her left is her weak spot, I just asked for one step, as soon she gave me a nice crossover with her front feet (which was the first time i asked), then I stopped. Then repeated but asked for two steps this time and stopped once she gave it to me. I asked for two because I have never asked her for two steps yet. 

Am I able to yield her FQ from her right to her left in a full complete circle? No, not even half a circle but I saw a definite improvement in her yielding from her right to her left from a couple weeks ago in the lesson. So I left it at that and the next time we work on it, ill ask for a bit more.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> But over time as they get better yielding their FQ, you should be able to just walk their way into their shoulder, and they automatically yield away from you. No different with their hind end and its EXACTLY like how its done in the field. Its all body language and driving them with your energy.


I agree with you here. My goal for horsemanship, and again...this is MY goal and I don't expect everyone to have the same goal is to eventually get to get my horse soft and responsive by using the absolute lightest pressure possible. In the example you gave with the carrot stick, that would never work for me. I compare the carrot stick with yelling. Yes- at first sometimes you have to yell to get your point across, but do you always keep yelling? You could...but I don't want to.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> But if you make the ques disctinctive enough, shouldnt they be able to pick up on it?


No. Horses have a brain the size of a walnut. They NEVER get past the level of about a five year old child. They have NO rationalization. They cannot connect things together. EVER. They are SIMPLE. (Have we not said this before...I feel like I am repeating myself.) 

To a horse, a millimeter makes a difference. Whether you had a good day or a bad day at work changes your body language drastically....way more than one mm. So YOU cannot make those cues distinct enough to be clear to the horse.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> No. Horses have a brain the size of a walnut. They NEVER get past the level of about a five year old child. They have NO rationalization. They cannot connect things together. EVER. They are SIMPLE. (Have we not said this before...I feel like I am repeating myself.)
> 
> To a horse, a millimeter makes a difference. Whether you had a good day or a bad day at work changes your body language drastically....way more than one mm. So YOU cannot make those cues distinct enough to be clear to the horse.


I know that horses have a brain the size of a walnut.

Well ill find out next time if what I taught my mare yesterday worked or not. I think I made it pretty obvious with my ques, perhaps it might take a couple more times doing it with her though.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I have yet to tell her yet, just been busy and don't want to bother her since she has company visiting her. So I will tell her when she contacts me next (which Id imagine would be sometime today or tomorrow) since her trainer is running a 1 day clinic at her place and she invited me to come audit for free.
> 
> I actually was going to go but that was before I made the decision of not continuing on with her anymore. Plus her trainer is a Parelli trainer so what good would it do for me.


I have never called a client to set up a lesson unless they contacted me first. They know where I am, they call me.

Why not text her? "Thanks for your your help but I will no longer be needing your services."

If she responds back tell her you feel that the bag session went overboard & that is not the path you've chosen with your mare. Clean & honest.


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## Skyseternalangel

When working with a horse, a shorter time frame with good results is better than a longer time frame _waiting_ on the horse to show "lick and chew" signs.

Horses aren't a gumball machine. Just because you put a quarter in and a gumball comes out, doesn't mean that if you do a,b,c then horse will lick and chew as a result.

Horses are individuals, each learn in their own way, process information in their own way, and take X amount of time to get comfortable with a new guideline. 

When in doubt, work on it a LITTLE BIT each day, or each interaction. Maybe 5 minutes. Build on it each day, try to end on a decent note (in this case, one instance of walking three strides and she doesn't put her head down) and then put her away or move onto something else.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I agree with you here. My goal for horsemanship, and again...this is MY goal and I don't expect everyone to have the same goal is to eventually get to get my horse soft and responsive by using the absolute lightest pressure possible. In the example you gave with the carrot stick, that would never work for me. I compare the carrot stick with yelling. Yes- at first sometimes you have to yell to get your point across, but do you always keep yelling? You could...but I don't want to.


I was never a fan of putting a stick up to any horses side of the face to yield their FQ. But I saw the benefits of it (and in other areas) on my mare because it made her softer. No horse would like a stick near their face as it puts a lot more pressure than nothing there but as a first time thats why I think its very effective especially when my mare wouldnt yield from the right to the left. 

My carrot stick has become my best friend. It really is a saviour because it makes yourself that much longer. And that is why I carry it with me everywhere, I just keep it in neutral when I dont want any pressure coming from it. 

I never knew you could achieve softness when using a carrot stick and this is what my outside trainer really taught me, was very soft and sutle ways in going about using the stick, but still be just as effective. Each of my past trainers taught me how to use the carrot stick, but as a whip, not even close as light as my outside trainer taught me.

And that is my ultimate goal, to have my mare be soft and willing and be able to handle and work with her with the lightest ques. And over the past month, she has gotten softer. A big reason is because im using my energy and thinking it mentally. So for instance if I want her to move back, I look her directly in the eyes, think back and use my energy to drive her back. Still work to be done, but its a definite improvement.

This is why I would like to re-visit backing her up through logs again when I have the chance. Im curious to see the difference in her.


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## egrogan

You mention softness a lot in your writing about the groundwork. What do you mean by that? How is a horse soft on the ground? (genuine question, I don't know what you mean).


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## Prairie

You talk about the carrot stick as if it was magical in being able to move your mare. What are you going to do in an emergency if you need to move her but don't have that magical carrot stick? Perhaps it would be better to establish your position in the herd of 2 rather than rely on a stick to direct her. You talk about "softness" as being achieved by that stick, but it does not take a magical carrot stick to train a horse to be soft and responsive.


If you are in the herd, the herd dynamics have changed so you are not observing the natural order that exists with no human present. Thus your observations are distorted. If I walk out into our pasture, I now become alpha, the one who must be obeyed, and our alpha horse will submit to what I ask---that's not how a herd hierarchy works when the human is not present.


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## jenkat86

I think maybe what he means instead of "softness" is actually lightness- on the ground.


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## Golden Horse

I'm still wondering what FQ are/is


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## Prairie

I *think* F/Q is forequarters.....so he's moving the forequarters doing a pivot since he referred to how she was crossing her legs.


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## egrogan

Golden Horse said:


> I'm still wondering what FQ are/is


French Quarter?


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I have never called a client to set up a lesson unless they contacted me first. They know where I am, they call me.
> 
> Why not text her? "Thanks for your your help but I will no longer be needing your services."
> 
> If she responds back tell her you feel that the bag session went overboard & that is not the path you've chosen with your mare. Clean & honest.


Well in a way I know she has company and I dont want to bother her, but you are right. I will text her and see what she says.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I'm still wondering what FQ are/is


Foreqrters


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## Golden Horse

Ahhh, shoulders!


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## anndankev

Also Forehand


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## Prairie

At least in my circle, forehand is the term we use......and my circle includes hunter/jumpers, WP, Trail, Ranch work, roping, and cutting so it's fairly wide.


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## Golden Horse

anndankev said:


> Also Forehand


That's better, that's the word I couldn't think of


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> You mention softness a lot in your writing about the groundwork. What do you mean by that? How is a horse soft on the ground? (genuine question, I don't know what you mean).


Soft as in having them respond with the lightest pressure. 

When I was watching my friends trainer a few weeks back working her stud and she could move her studs feet individually by just looking and pointing at them is what I call extremely soft. 

I still would love to teach my mare this but have no clue in how to go about it.


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## greentree

Look intently at the foot you want to move. Move your lead rope hand until she moves THAT foot. Smile and stand up a little, looking away from the foot. NO need to pet, or treat, or say good girl. Do another foot, etc. do this everyday when you groom her.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> You talk about the carrot stick as if it was magical in being able to move your mare. What are you going to do in an emergency if you need to move her but don't have that magical carrot stick? Perhaps it would be better to establish your position in the herd of 2 rather than rely on a stick to direct her. You talk about "softness" as being achieved by that stick, but it does not take a magical carrot stick to train a horse to be soft and responsive.
> 
> 
> If you are in the herd, the herd dynamics have changed so you are not observing the natural order that exists with no human present. Thus your observations are distorted. If I walk out into our pasture, I now become alpha, the one who must be obeyed, and our alpha horse will submit to what I ask---that's not how a herd hierarchy works when the human is not present.


I always carry my carrot stick with me but I dont always use it. Sometimes ill just throw it on the ground but its good to have just in case. I have established myself in our herd of 2, I can move her without my stick no problem, I just find the stick really makes things easier at times. It really is a great training tool. 

Just because im carrying it with me everywhere doesnt mean im relying on it too much. Its just like the whip, Ive seen some trainers do some pretty remarkable stuff with the usage of a long stick.

Now about a month ago when I was at the clinic where I walked a mare onto and over a matress, and backed her up through L logs, I didnt use a stick. I used my body and hands to guide her. But after seeing how all these trainers using sticks in their clinics, and how they go about using them, I do see a benefit.

Yes im aware that herd dynamics change when im in the field too with the horses. That is why I always make sure I watch from stand just outside the gate as well.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Look intently at the foot you want to move. Move your lead rope hand until she moves THAT foot. Smile and stand up a little, looking away from the foot. NO need to pet, or treat, or say good girl. Do another foot, etc. do this everyday when you groom her.


I dont get it.


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## DraftyAiresMum

The stick, or whip, or fly swatter, or whatever you use, is just an extension of your arm. The only time you should need or use the extension of your arm is if you have to or to reinforce your arm. 

You're putting too much stock in the "lick and chew." I never even heard of licking and chewing until I came on the forum five years ago.

When you're riding, do you wait for your mare or the lesson mare to lick and chew before moving on? Do you sit there after asking her to back a few steps, waiting for her to lick and chew, then move on to asking her to move forward? I'd be willing to bet you don't. If you don't do it in the saddle, why would you do it on the ground?

Work with your horse enough and you'll just be able to tell when she's got a concept and you can move on.

Focus more on pressure and release...less on "lick and chew."


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## egrogan

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I never even heard of licking and chewing until I came on the forum five years ago.


Me too! One of the many ways of interacting with horses I'd never heard of until I started reading stuff here. I'm glad I've learned so much about how other people approach horses, it's been eye opening.


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## tinyliny

greentree said:


> Look intently at the foot you want to move. Move your lead rope hand until she moves THAT foot. Smile and stand up a little, looking away from the foot. NO need to pet, or treat, or say good girl. Do another foot, etc. do this everyday when you groom her.



what Greentree means is that you indicate your intention by focussing on the foot you want to move, and then you impart the desire to move by applying energy with the movement of the leadline, or clucking or, swiching you hand, or any other movment that causes the hrose to want to move away from it.

I'd like to add to this that when you see someone move, as if by magic, one foot at a time, and the foot that they choose, it is because they KNOW which foot is easiest for the horse to move at any one time. 

if the horse has more weight on one front foot, and you ask him to move, it is the less-weighted foot he will move away first. or, he willl shift his weight onto the other foot, and THEN move the first foot. 
if you want the hrose to move any particular foot first and solely, you must ask him to move an unweighted foot, not a weighted one. you set him up for success by asking what he CAN do easily.

think on that for a bit.


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## Hoofpic

Such good old boys.


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## Zexious

^Lovely! <3


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> what Greentree means is that you indicate your intention by focussing on the foot you want to move, and then you impart the desire to move by applying energy with the movement of the leadline, or clucking or, swiching you hand, or any other movment that causes the hrose to want to move away from it.
> 
> I'd like to add to this that when you see someone move, as if by magic, one foot at a time, and the foot that they choose, it is because they KNOW which foot is easiest for the horse to move at any one time.
> 
> if the horse has more weight on one front foot, and you ask him to move, it is the less-weighted foot he will move away first. or, he willl shift his weight onto the other foot, and THEN move the first foot.
> if you want the hrose to move any particular foot first and solely, you must ask him to move an unweighted foot, not a weighted one. you set him up for success by asking what he CAN do easily.
> 
> think on that for a bit.


Thanks, thats more clear now. But if you apply energy by the movement of your lead hand (in the direction of where youwant that foot to go?), wouldnt they see it as moving their whole body?

I agree with your point on making sure you ask for a foot that they dont have their weight on.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> ^Lovely! <3


Thanks. Im going to get prints for some of these shots and give them to my BO to put up in the viewing area bulletin board. 

I know for Christmas, I want to get him good photos of all his own horses on the property to keep. When one of his oldest geldings past away a couple months ago from breaking his leg in the field while running, I know it was hard on him because he didnt have any photos of him to remember him by. 

So the BO might not be ok with me wandering to other herds to take photos of them but if I can manage to find a way, I will get some good photos of his other horses. BO isnt a fan of people going up to other horses that they dont own or wandering into their fields. Obviously he is ok with me giving attention to the two geldings in my mares herd but that is because thats where my mare is.

But the BO has some other horses of his own that are getting up there in age and for all you know, could leave him any time without him knowing. So by me hoping to get him photos of them, it will at least give him photos to hold onto for when that time does come. I hope its not for a long long time, but like I learned from the previous accident. Always expect the unexpected.


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## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, thats more clear now. But if you apply energy by the movement of your lead hand (in the direction of where youwant that foot to go?), wouldnt they see it as moving their whole body?
> 
> I agree with your point on making sure you ask for a foot that they dont have their weight on.


yes, you do apply the energy so that they will move in the direction you want them to go. 

however, you don't necessarily need to 'drive' very much, if at all. I can get a hrose to step a foot over one direction or the other by putting a feel on the rope, that is putting a little wiggle or lift onto the rope that is directed toward the direction I want them to step.

here is a silly video I made about 5 years ago. the volume is terrible, but you may get a few yuks and giggles from it:


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## greentree

Pretend that your horse is standing on the rope, but you want to pick that rope up. How would you get the horse to move off of the rope? And if the horses's whole body moves, put it back in the same spot and start over.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> yes, you do apply the energy so that they will move in the direction you want them to go.
> 
> however, you don't necessarily need to 'drive' very much, if at all. I can get a hrose to step a foot over one direction or the other by putting a feel on the rope, that is putting a little wiggle or lift onto the rope that is directed toward the direction I want them to step.
> 
> here is a silly video I made about 5 years ago. the volume is terrible, but you may get a few yuks and giggles from it:
> 
> Moving the horse over and out for lunging preperation - YouTube


Thanks. That helped a lot. So over time, can you replace that lead rope with your finger and point to where you want the foot to go?

Is that horse an Appy? Looks like it.



greentree said:


> Pretend that your horse is standing on the rope, but you want to pick that rope up. How would you get the horse to move off of the rope? And if the horses's whole body moves, put it back in the same spot and start over.


Good example, thanks inkunicorn:


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## greentree

Remember, only reward the specific movement that you are training.....for instance......if you are riding, and trying to walk from a canter, don't reward when you get a trot. (Because it IS slowing down, but NOT for what you are training...)


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## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. That helped a lot. *So over time, can you replace that lead rope with your finger and point to where you want the foot to go?*
> 
> Is that horse an Appy? Looks like it.
> 
> 
> 
> Good example, thanks inkunicorn:


I suppose so, but, I would have little interest in that. I would mostly be handling the horse with either a bridle and reins, or a lead rope, so the better I get the hrose at following the feel of a rein/leadrope, the more helpful that will be in general.

the horse isn't just learning to place his foot. he is learning to follow a feel on the line, so once that is in place, you can put the feel to various directions and horse follows, not just learning a single trick to put into a bag of tricks.

if you think of your leadrope as your 'rein' you will use it much more effectively. you would not haul on your rein with prolonged and solid , hard pull (you shouldn't), you would not yank on your rein, certainly not without having asked gently, first. you approach your leadrope like a rein, too, transmitting a feel and recieving a feel; a dialogue.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Remember, only reward the specific movement that you are training.....for instance......if you are riding, and trying to walk from a canter, don't reward when you get a trot. (Because it IS slowing down, but NOT for what you are training...)


Yes I agree. I only reward for the movement I want and asking for.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> I suppose so, but, I would have little interest in that. I would mostly be handling the horse with either a bridle and reins, or a lead rope, so the better I get the hrose at following the feel of a rein/leadrope, the more helpful that will be in general.
> 
> the horse isn't just learning to place his foot. he is learning to follow a feel on the line, so once that is in place, you can put the feel to various directions and horse follows, not just learning a single trick to put into a bag of tricks.
> 
> if you think of your leadrope as your 'rein' you will use it much more effectively. you would not haul on your rein with prolonged and solid , hard pull (you shouldn't), you would not yank on your rein, certainly not without having asked gently, first. you approach your leadrope like a rein, too, transmitting a feel and recieving a feel; a dialogue.


You bring up very good points,thanks.

How you did it is much more beneficial than just using your finger to point.


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## Hoofpic

It it normal for dead hair to just pull out easily after the winter?

Quite a few strands came out yesterday and i was not happy. A mane takes 7 years to fully grow back.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Who told you that a mane takes seven years to fully grow back?! Nobody better tell my gelding. I completely roached his mane not quite three years ago and now it's well below his neck. :icon_rolleyes:

Do you lose some hair when you brush or comb your hair? I bet you do. It's normal. Hair dies and falls out and new hair grows in its place. Biology 101, kiddo.


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## greentree

JR's mane and tail were both hacked off with a knife ( he was a Mennonite workhorse....they have no electricity or running water....) and now, 3 years later, his mane is very long, and his tail is down to the ground! 

Of course, we ALL shed and regrow new hair!!


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Who told you that a mane takes seven years to fully grow back?! Nobody better tell my gelding. I completely roached his mane not quite three years ago and now it's well below his neck. :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> Do you lose some hair when you brush or comb your hair? I bet you do. It's normal. Hair dies and falls out and new hair grows in its place. Biology 101, kiddo.


My outside trainer told me it takes 7 years for a mane and tail to fully grow. Im talking from when the entire hair right from the stem comes right out.

Well yes I use a special comb (looks like a curry comb) when I brush Fly's mane and tail (regular hair brushes will pull too much out) and this one is much gentlier. Its actually a friend boarders of mine haha. Its so soft and helps detangle. For deep knots I use my hands and manually separate them. 

Then yesterday another boarder told me about Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition detangler. She let me use some and what a different it made on my mares mane and tail. Her mane and tail is so dry and I want to get it soft and smooth. This garnier stuff did it. Only thing is its so hard to find and its $5cdn for a 150ml bottle. Its pricey but it works much better than Showsheen or Mane and Tail spray and it doesn't have silicone in it.

The boarder who uses this on her mare everyday, you should see how shiny and soft her mane and tail is. 

So I picked up a couple bottles tonight and will use it on my mare for the next while. Hoping I can get her mane and tail soft and organic again.

Cause Flys mane and tail is so thick that you better brush it weekly or if you wait longer, it will take hours to do.

The good thing about this Garnier stuff is that (the boarder said), you use it every couple days and the mane and tail will not get tangled nearly as much and it makes for short work each time you do it because it makes the hair softer and softer each time you use it. This is what I want. Because showsheeen and mane and tail spray are not great products. It dries out the hair.


----------



## greentree

I use the Mane n Tail detangler every day. I don't have a problem with it, but I will check out the human stuff and see how it compares price-wise. Thanks for the tip!


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## Hoofpic

I just love the top of her tail. Last fall when she was in a paddock, she was rubbing her top of her tail against the fence and there was no white left. It was so short it was spiky white. But I put MTG on it twice a week for about 3 or 4 months and it fully grew back.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I use the Mane n Tail detangler every day. I don't have a problem with it, but I will check out the human stuff and see how it compares price-wise. Thanks for the tip!


Price wise the Garnier stuff is much more pricey but my friend boarder said I need to wait for it to go on sale (which is $2.99 each). I went to one drug store tonight and they had it on sale for $2.99 but only had two bottles left. This stuff sells for $7 regular. I should check out walmart too.

So I got a raincheck as well for 48 bottles (my friend boarder said if i find a sale for $2.99 get her a bunch) as she probably goes through a bottle a week.

I only used a bit yesterday but I immediately noticed a big difference in how soft and smooth and detangled it made my mares mane. She warned me that this stuff is amazing and it is! Expensive but there is no going back to Showsheen or Mane & Tail spray.


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## greentree

It does have silicone in it.....and it is WAY more expensive. On the Wal Mart website, it has been discontinued. I do not shop at WalMart, so it does not matter to me. I will stick with Mane n Tail.


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## Hoofpic

Here is a pic of it. Amazing stuff. Wow.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> It does have silicone in it.....and it is WAY more expensive. On the Wal Mart website, it has been discontinued. I do not shop at WalMart, so it does not matter to me. I will stick with Mane n Tail.


Oh ok, but it is basically fruit oils 

Have you heard of people using cocunut oil?

Mane and Tail spray doesnt make the hair soft, which is what I want.


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## paintedpastures

Find if You want full mane & tail,don't be brushing/combing out daily:wink: Have used few different products but one lately I like is Argan oil that makes hair nice & soft, easy to comb out. Few drops to roots massage in & Gently comb hair. Usually come in small bottles,seemingly pricey but it lasts cause you use much more sparingly..


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## anndankev

Tiny is giving a lot of great advice. And well defining feel and timing. I recommend paying attention. 

Read over her most recent post a second time, and watch the video again after that.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic, my gelding's tail is so thick that I can't get my hand around more than half of it at a time. It's also very coarse (yay draft horses!). I'm going to try coconut oil on it, so I'll let you know how it goes...if I ever get out to the barn.


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## greentree

I do not worry about soft with mine...horse hair is horse hair. Some of mine have fine hair, some coarse, but all of them have long hair(2 with manes down to their knees!), and I need the de tangling.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> My outside trainer told me it takes 7 years for a mane and tail to fully grow..


 Now I have gone from not respecting her as a trainer to wondering if she is a moron. It doesn't take anywhere near 7 years to grow out, maybe 7 months. Definitely within a year or two at most. As for the garnier stuff it does have silicone. 
I am a pretty blunt guy, so please don't take this as being rude, it is not my intent at all but my wife likes to point out that I quite often fail at diplomacy. My question is, do you research anything? Or do you just take advice as gospel? Repeatedly in threads when someone tells you something that becomes your new go to advice, product, training method etc., etc., etc.
I have no doubt that the people around you are telling the stuff they tell you because they believe it to be true. But don't take what everyone tells you as the end all be all, especially where horses are concerned because there is no one "right" answer. When you say things like show sheen and main n tail aren't good products because they have silicone in them and then go out and buy/hold 50 bottles of something that has silicone in it, it comes across as kind of obnoxious. I have used show sheen for 40 years with no problems whatsoever and easily 100 horses in that time have had full, luxurious, soft manes and tales. There is a saying about know-it -alls in Texas, it goes something like "instant a$$hole, just add alcohol". I have my own variation: instant equestrian, just add horse. Please don't fall into that category. I may be coming off like a **** right now, but I want you to know I am on your side. I want you, and Fly, to succeed. But to do that, you have got to quit drinking every cup of Kool-Aid someone gives you!


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## Golden Horse

> I have no doubt that the people around you are telling the stuff they tell you because they believe it to be true. But don't take what everyone tells you as the end all be all, especially where horses are concerned because there is no one "right" answer. When you say things like show sheen and main n tail aren't good products because they have silicone in them and then go out and buy/hold 50 bottles of something that has silicone in it, it comes across as kind of obnoxious. I have used show sheen for 40 years with no problems whatsoever and easily 100 horses in that time have had full, luxurious, soft manes and tales. There is a saying about know-it -alls in Texas, it goes something like "instant a$$hole, just add alcohol". I have my own variation: instant equestrian, just add horse. Please don't fall into that category. I may be coming off like a **** right now, but I want you to know I am on your side. I want you, and Fly, to succeed. But to do that, you have got to quit drinking every cup of Kool-Aid someone gives you!


No you don't sound like a ****, or a know it all, I agree 100% with your summing up. Everyone wants Hoofpic and Fly to succeed, but we all worry about his lack of knowledge, and this adopting as fact anything that anyone says.


----------



## gypsygirl

I have to say that I don't think 7 years is correct, but I know a lot of people that do ! My mares tail touched the ground when she was a 3yo, so obviously it didn't take 7 years ! It all depends on the horse. Not really sure where the number 7 came from, but I know a lot of people who believe that and they aren't morons


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic, my gelding's tail is so thick that I can't get my hand around more than half of it at a time. It's also very coarse (yay draft horses!). I'm going to try coconut oil on it, so I'll let you know how it goes...if I ever get out to the barn.


Ok let me know how it works out for you. I have CoCo oil at home so if it works ill try it.



greentree said:


> I do not worry about soft with mine...horse hair is horse hair. Some of mine have fine hair, some coarse, but all of them have long hair(2 with manes down to their knees!), and I need the de tangling.


I want it soft so that its easy to detangle, especially with a super thick mane and tail.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Now I have gone from not respecting her as a trainer to wondering if she is a moron. It doesn't take anywhere near 7 years to grow out, maybe 7 months. Definitely within a year or two at most. As for the garnier stuff it does have silicone.
> I am a pretty blunt guy, so please don't take this as being rude, it is not my intent at all but my wife likes to point out that I quite often fail at diplomacy. My question is, do you research anything? Or do you just take advice as gospel? Repeatedly in threads when someone tells you something that becomes your new go to advice, product, training method etc., etc., etc.
> I have no doubt that the people around you are telling the stuff they tell you because they believe it to be true. But don't take what everyone tells you as the end all be all, especially where horses are concerned because there is no one "right" answer. When you say things like show sheen and main n tail aren't good products because they have silicone in them and then go out and buy/hold 50 bottles of something that has silicone in it, it comes across as kind of obnoxious. I have used show sheen for 40 years with no problems whatsoever and easily 100 horses in that time have had full, luxurious, soft manes and tales. There is a saying about know-it -alls in Texas, it goes something like "instant a$$hole, just add alcohol". I have my own variation: instant equestrian, just add horse. Please don't fall into that category. I may be coming off like a **** right now, but I want you to know I am on your side. I want you, and Fly, to succeed. But to do that, you have got to quit drinking every cup of Kool-Aid someone gives you!


I usually don't take everything as fact but only with people that i trust, I tend to take their word for stuff. Stuff like mane and tail growth or whether an oil has silicone in it is minor to me so I wont bother researching it (at least not right away), whereas say if it was advice on a piece of training then I would. 

There is some boarders at the barn who have given me good advice in the past, but I do know that they give me other sorts of advice that I dont believe in so when they try to tell me, I nod my head, say thanks and no comment. For instance this one specific boarder has given me some great advice in the past but whenever she tries to bring up with me that I cant expect this or that, (or at least not that much) out of my mare because she is young and shes a mare, I completely ignore her. Age and my horse being a mare are irrelevant and have been ever since I have permanently re-tuned my thoughts just over a month ago.

She has a mare as well who is just 6 months older than Fly and she constantly has the fact that she is young and a mare as an excuse as to why she acts certain ways when trying to teach her stuff.


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## anndankev

Way back a hundred or so years ago, my sister went to Cosmetology School (for people), I had hip length hair and was always hoping it would grow longer. Sometimes I would see someone with much longer hair, Crystal Gail for example. 

My sister explained to me that each individual human hair lived a maximum of 7 years. So the best way for me to encourage my hair to be longer, was to prevent breakage so that every hair could become as long as it could, and last 7 years without breaking or being pulled out. 

She said the variable that enabled some peoples' hair to become longer was how fast, or slow, it grew. So Crystal Gail, and a woman I saw on a talk show whose hair was 12 feet long, or others with hair so extremely long had hair that grew very fast plus did not incur breakage and splitting.

I Imagine that 7 years life for a each human hair is where all the people who believe it takes 7 years for a horse mane and/or tail to grow out came from. It is simply not applied correctly. In humans there is an ongoing staggering of start times, old hairs fall or are pulled out while new hairs start to grow. 

I don't know the life expectancy of a hair in a horse's mane and tail; however, I feel like the variables would be the same.


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## Prairie

She has a mare as well who is just 6 months older than Fly and she constantly has the fact that she is young and a mare as an excuse as to why she acts certain ways when trying to teach her stuff. "


Have you never heard that you tell a gelding, ask a stallion, and discuss it with a mare? Of course age and sex have an influence on horses just like they do on other animals, including humans. For example, I sure don't expect my 2 yo grandson to respond to a certain stimulus like I do my 16 yo----the 2 yo doesn't have the experiences and knowledge nor the ability to always distinguish the best solution/answer! Working with animals is just like playing with building blocks---you have to have a good foundation to build on and that requires time and depends on the abilities of the builder and type of materials.


But more important is that every horse is an individual so the trainer has to have a deep bag of tricks, be able to read the horse, and figure out what particular technique will work with that particular horse......and then be willing and able to tweak that technique to suit the situation.

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/my-journey-becoming-strong-leader-702169/page58/#


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## KigerQueen

^ this! i never know how diverse horses personalities could be. now that there are 5 between my fiance, my father in law and i i understand. Rocket the 31 year old tb is quiet yet strong. when he has a moment poping him with the lead rope (on his chest if he tried to run infront of you when leading) only makes him mad and will earn a response of him striking. if you calmly remind him by pulling him back and telling him to quit it he quietly complies.

Odie in the same situation heeds to be poped in the check and backed up as any other correction is blatantly ignored. But Clinton Anderson style training amps odie up making him incredible reactive and dangerous but quiet english/dressage style ground work makes him calm and happy.

My arabian LOVES Clinton Anderson ground work and thinks its a game. and if she starts walking to fast i can tell her to stop and back her up two steps and thats all i need to do. 


i have found i click with mares better as they are kind of like cats. they dont need to be showed in attention, you dont need too many treats, and if you have a mutual understanding they will like to be near you but at the same time like their own space so not so much crowding.


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## Hoofpic

anndankev said:


> Way back a hundred or so years ago, my sister went to Cosmetology School (for people), I had hip length hair and was always hoping it would grow longer. Sometimes I would see someone with much longer hair, Crystal Gail for example.
> 
> My sister explained to me that each individual human hair lived a maximum of 7 years. So the best way for me to encourage my hair to be longer, was to prevent breakage so that every hair could become as long as it could, and last 7 years without breaking or being pulled out.
> 
> She said the variable that enabled some peoples' hair to become longer was how fast, or slow, it grew. So Crystal Gail, and a woman I saw on a talk show whose hair was 12 feet long, or others with hair so extremely long had hair that grew very fast plus did not incur breakage and splitting.
> 
> I Imagine that 7 years life for a each human hair is where all the people who believe it takes 7 years for a horse mane and/or tail to grow out came from. It is simply not applied correctly. In humans there is an ongoing staggering of start times, old hairs fall or are pulled out while new hairs start to grow.
> 
> I don't know the life expectancy of a hair in a horse's mane and tail; however, I feel like the variables would be the same.


Thanks for the explanation Anndankev, helps a lot


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## Hoofpic

I did it! Got Fly onto the bridge. Took about about 8 or 9mins but most of it was her distracted by outside distractions.

It wasnt perfection like how a trainer would do it but i got her on a few times.

I didnt have to ask her step at a time. I asked for the first one and she just followed right through. I was surprised.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> I did it! Got Fly onto the bridge. Took about about 8 or 9mins but most of it was her distracted by outside distractions.
> 
> *It wasn't perfection like how a trainer would do it but i got her on a few times.*
> 
> I didnt have to ask her step at a time. I asked for the first one and she just followed right through. I was surprised.


Perfection like a trainer?

Was your intent of the lesson to get Fly on the bridge? Did Fly get on the bridge? Were you or Fly or any innocent bystanders hurt or damaged in any way?

Sounds like a win to me. Every time you interact with a horse, you are training it (or else it is training you). There is no "right" way with horses (or any other thinking being). You achieved your goal. Congrats!!


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## greentree

^^love that, PH!!

Hoofpic, just because what you see at a clinic or on a video looks seamless, doesn't mean it IS. You KNOW about editing, right??

A MAJOR NH clinician was coming to our area, and my friend (a lifelong horse person who runs a lesson program, and takes in quite a few horses) had a show aquaintence ask her if she had some horses that they could use for demonstrations. She brought 2. One of the demos was a trailer loading demo. (The horse had no big problem loading in the trailer at her farm......he just had very little trailer experience.) 
They could not get the horse in the trailer.....he got LOOSE and they could not catch him in the arena. She had to go down and catch her horse, while they went on as if nothing had happened(SHOW BIZ). The other horse came home with SPUR RIDGES on its sides. She did not see that demo. 

My friend teaches HORSEmANSHIP, uses NH techniques in her teaching, and so it is not a foreign language. That story is one of the reasons that I take what these clinicians say with a tiny grain of salt. I have been training my own horses since I was 9 years old, and I feel qualified to discern the hay from the chaff. There is A LOT of chaff.....


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## Prairie

"I feel qualified to discern the hay from the chaff. There is A LOT of chaff..... "


Sadly that is very true and most of those popular trainers appeal to those who really think horses are similar to dogs, totally missing that one is a prey animal and the other is a predator. A horse is not a dog and needs to be trained and handled as the noble, flight or fight, curious critter he is. A good trainer works with the horse, a poor trainer works with tools that are totally unnecessary for training a horse.


Hoofpic, now that you were able to get her to cross the bridge, try working her around other obstacles like mail boxes, poles, hanging vines (or pool noodles), working a gate in hand, etc. so she learns to look to you for guidance and develops trust that you will not ask anything that will cause her pain. 

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/my-journey-becoming-strong-leader-702169/page58/#


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## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> Perfection like a trainer?
> 
> Was your intent of the lesson to get Fly on the bridge? Did Fly get on the bridge? Were you or Fly or any innocent bystanders hurt or damaged in any way?
> 
> Sounds like a win to me. Every time you interact with a horse, you are training it (or else it is training you). There is no "right" way with horses (or any other thinking being). You achieved your goal. Congrats!!


Thanks.

I have a video of it but Im really hesistant on posting it for you guys to see. I want to show you guys because I feel if I want to get better, I need to have you guys critique me. But Im scared. Because I did some things WRONG and I know it. I know Greentree wont be happy with me.

Yes I had the intention to get my mare on the bridge. She got on. My biggest barrier was that she was very distracted from happenings outside the barn. You may see the video and come to the conslusion that she wasnt paying attention to me at all during the video. There is also one moment where the BO drove right outside the barn door and she spooked and a bit into my direction. 

Im not quite happy with myself because when she would step to the side or not to where I want her to go, I didnt put her back in the exact same spot where she came from.

Why? Because I dont have that ability yet to do this without having to move my feet. I can do it if I really take the time and work on it (like I did when I managed to back her up through L shaped logs), but I find it much easier to get her back in the position where she was by me moving my feet.

Now I will say that if my outside trainer saw this video, she would freak out on me. Why? Because I moved my feet. Where she would always say KEEP YOUR FEET PLANTED WHILE YOU MOVE HER FEET.

When I watched my outside trainer and the trainer from the clinic last weekend do stuff like this, they would use the stick to guide the horse back to where they came from. 

And this is why backing up my mare through L shape logs I think would be really beneficial to me. Yes I managed to do it a few times a couple months ago but pinpointing steps is something i want to be able to do a lot better. I also think it was much easier to get my mare to take steps back to where she came from when doing the L shaped logs with my mare, because I was standing at the side of her nose, MUCH closer to her.

Will I work on the bridge more with my mare? Of course. I think it will be really beneficial to me. Stuff like this and the L shaped logs is probably two things I should do often for the next while because it will help me work on being able to guide her feet step by step without having to move mine.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I did it! Got Fly onto the bridge. Took about about 8 or 9mins but most of it was her distracted by outside distractions.
> 
> *It wasnt perfection like how a trainer would do it but i got her on a few times.*
> 
> I didnt have to ask her step at a time. I asked for the first one and she just followed right through. I was surprised.


Congratulations on achieving a goal....now as to the bolded....

I have spent a lot of time watching the trainer at my barn working with youngsters and horses in for a tune up, and you know perfection isn't what he is after. What he is looking for is improvement, understanding and harmony. 

So yesterday she walked over the bridge, on first ask, THAT is your perfection for the day, take it, and be real happy.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I'm not understanding why you have to put her in the exact same spot she came from if she steps where you don't want her. As long as you keep it up until you receive the desired response, then give her a release as a reward, it doesn't matter if she starts from the same spot. 

Rome wasn't built in a day. You have to walk before you can run. *Insert any other ridiculous cliche you can think of here*

As long as the end result is what you want, it doesn't entirely matter how you got there. Once she knows that the bridge isn't going to eat her and it becomes "ho-hum" to her, THEN you can work on "perfection" and whatever else you seek.

You're really missing the forest for the trees when it comes to training. You're so focused on getting each individual step absolutely perfect that you forget to acknowledge the fact that you did achieve your goal, which was getting Fly onto the bridge. That right there should be enough to say "Yes! I did it!"

I really think that Parelli trainer did more harm than good with you.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> ^^love that, PH!!
> 
> Hoofpic, just because what you see at a clinic or on a video looks seamless, doesn't mean it IS. You KNOW about editing, right??
> 
> A MAJOR NH clinician was coming to our area, and my friend (a lifelong horse person who runs a lesson program, and takes in quite a few horses) had a show aquaintence ask her if she had some horses that they could use for demonstrations. She brought 2. One of the demos was a trailer loading demo. (The horse had no big problem loading in the trailer at her farm......he just had very little trailer experience.)
> They could not get the horse in the trailer.....he got LOOSE and they could not catch him in the arena. She had to go down and catch her horse, while they went on as if nothing had happened(SHOW BIZ). The other horse came home with SPUR RIDGES on its sides. She did not see that demo.
> 
> My friend teaches HORSEmANSHIP, uses NH techniques in her teaching, and so it is not a foreign language. That story is one of the reasons that I take what these clinicians say with a tiny grain of salt. I have been training my own horses since I was 9 years old, and I feel qualified to discern the hay from the chaff. There is A LOT of chaff.....


I know a lot of videos online are edited (this is why I stopped watching Clint Anderson videos many months ago). But watching clinicians live is as real as it gets.

I feel that I should do it like how I observe it because each little thing means something. So when I ask Fly to take a step forward and she takes a step to the side (this is also what my outside trainer kept harping on me about) is that you move that exact same foot that she moved to the exact same spot that it came from. And if she keeps doing it, then you keep moving that foot back. 

Now, when my outside trainer first started working with me and this was one of the things that she wanted me to start doing for everything, I did question if it would be seen as borderline micro managing. I still dont know to this day if it is or not.

I dissapointed in myself because I made erorrs in the video. You will see. If my outside trainer saw it, she would be freaking out telling me to keep my feet still.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Congratulations on achieving a goal....now as to the bolded....
> 
> I have spent a lot of time watching the trainer at my barn working with youngsters and horses in for a tune up, and you know perfection isn't what he is after. What he is looking for is improvement, understanding and harmony.
> 
> So yesterday she walked over the bridge, on first ask, THAT is your perfection for the day, take it, and be real happy.


Thanks. Well Fly was really distracted last night when working with her on this and perhaps I could have been a lot harder on her by correcting her for this but I didnt. I didnt want to correct her hard, then all of a sudden I wont be near as relaxed (Which I was very relaxed last night) and she will react from it. 

Just last night it hit me again. If there is one thing that Ive really improved on, its that im much more relaxed all the time now when with my mare. Its a drastic difference really. And it only benefits myself and my mare (as im sure it makes her more relaxed and happier to be around me).

Last night she picked up her feet so well I really wish I could have recorded it. Its a HUGE difference from before.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I feel that I should do it like how I observe it because each little thing means something. So when I ask Fly to take a step forward and she takes a step to the side (this is also what my outside trainer kept harping on me about) is that you move that exact same foot that she moved to the exact same spot that it came from. And if she keeps doing it, then you keep moving that foot back.


This is ridiculous. You would never accomplish ANYTHING if you followed this method. 



> Now, when my outside trainer first started working with me and this was one of the things that she wanted me to start doing for everything,* I did question if it would be seen as borderline micro managing. I still dont know to this day if it is or not.*


Trust me. It goes beyond micro-managing.



> I dissapointed in myself because I made erorrs in the video. You will see. If my outside trainer saw it, she would be freaking out telling me to keep my feet still.


Why are you disappointed in errors?! Mistakes are how you LEARN!! You can't learn if you don't make mistakes. What, you just expected to do it absolutely perfectly the very first time you tried? 

*FORGET THE OUTSIDE TRAINER!!!* You ditched her for a reason, remember?


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Now, when my outside trainer first started working with me and this was one of the things that she wanted me to start doing for everything, I did question if it would be seen as borderline micro managing. I still dont know to this day if it is or not.
> 
> I dissapointed in myself because I made erorrs in the video. You will see. If my outside trainer saw it, she would be freaking out telling me to keep my feet still.


Jeez, I think that outside trainer has really done a number on you..horse riding is not about perfection, well not until you are high up in the show world, and even then people are AIMING at perfection and never achieving it.

This is where the Parelli type people hook you in for years, and why there are so many neurotic horses that have been through the seven games...STOP looking for faults 

GOAL = get horse to cross bridge
RESULT = Horse crossed bridge

That is a victory, doesn't matter a rodents rectum if you were in the 'wrong place' or where her attention was, you achieved what you set out to do, end of story.

NO we probably won't see the 'faults' because not many people are that fixated in 'perfection'


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'm not understanding why you have to put her in the exact same spot she came from if she steps where you don't want her. As long as you keep it up until you receive the desired response, then give her a release as a reward, it doesn't matter if she starts from the same spot.
> 
> Rome wasn't built in a day. You have to walk before you can run. *Insert any other ridiculous cliche you can think of here*
> 
> As long as the end result is what you want, it doesn't entirely matter how you got there. Once she knows that the bridge isn't going to eat her and it becomes "ho-hum" to her, THEN you can work on "perfection" and whatever else you seek.
> 
> You're really missing the forest for the trees when it comes to training. You're so focused on getting each individual step absolutely perfect that you forget to acknowledge the fact that you did achieve your goal, which was getting Fly onto the bridge. That right there should be enough to say "Yes! I did it!"
> 
> I really think that Parelli trainer did more harm than good with you.


You are right. Yes I am aware its all about steps at a time (even if its baby steps). The last lesson with my outside trainer was THE perfect example of how not do do a lesson where she was sacking out Fly for 1.5 hours with the plastic bag tied onto my carrot stick. She should and easily could have ended it at the 20min mark but she didnt. That lesson (I do think the BO was right calling this as "detramental"), did more harm than good cause im almost certain if I was to pull out a plastic bag today with Fly, she would freak out just as much as she did in the lesson if not more. So that would prove that my outside trainer achieved absolutely nothing in that 1.5 marathon of a lesson but just waste mine and Fly's time and my $50.

The only reason why I had Fly walk over the bridge 3 times is because 1) the first two times she walked over it without stopping and I wanted to be able to get her on stand on it with all 4 feet and 2) I wasnt able to really reward her for it the first two times because once she took that first step after I asked for it, she kept going and going and I immediately thought, well things are going so good, just make way for her to keep going and get to the end. 

So yes, even though perhaps I over rewarded her on the 3rd time, I knew I had to get that in or the whole lesson would have been out the window.

I see these clinicians do what they do in their demonstrations and I set the bar for myself way too high. I pretty much walk out of them convincing myself that I can duplicate exactly what I saw on my own without any supervision. Which IMO, sure its great for believing in yourself but i dont think its realistic and a habit that I need to stop.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> So yes, even though perhaps I over rewarded her on the 3rd time, I knew I had to get that in or the whole lesson would have been out the window.


I think you need to go in for a reset, purge all the garbage that the outside trainer has loaded you with.....WHY the heck would the whole lesson been out of the window...she did what you asked, period, a simple 'good girl' or a pat, after each crossing would have done it.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Why are you disappointed in errors?! Mistakes are how you LEARN!! You can't learn if you don't make mistakes. What, you just expected to do it absolutely perfectly the very first time you tried?



A young man was talking to a very successful, older man..........and he asked him, "How is it that you've come to have such good judgement?" The older man said, "From experience". The young man waited for him to continue, but when the old man didn't, the young man finally asked him, "Well, where does experience come from?" The older man said, "From bad judgement."

If you misjudge, but you benefit from that experience and learn what-not-to-do the next time, you'll develop better judgement.


Don't forget this goes not only for the rider, but the horse too!


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This is ridiculous. You would never accomplish ANYTHING if you followed this method.


I noticed the trainer from the clinic last weekend did this exact same thing (shes not Parelli) and I asked her this exact same question on why she does this. She said "Because I never asked for that foot to go where the horse chose to move it and by me instantly correcting him by making him move that foot back to where it was, it tells him that, that's not what I asked for".



> Trust me. It goes beyond micro-managing.


I thought so, I knew it! Remember, I "used to" micro manage (unintentionally of course) my mare many many months ago and I made every adjustment in myself to stop doing it. As soon as I stopped micro managing my mare, she was a much happier horse. I know because she told me. I saw a huge change in her attitude when around me.



> Why are you disappointed in errors?! Mistakes are how you LEARN!! You can't learn if you don't make mistakes. What, you just expected to do it absolutely perfectly the very first time you tried?


Because I dont want to accidentally teach my mare the wrong things. This is why I always make sure my ques that i give her are bang on.

*FORGET THE OUTSIDE TRAINER!!!* You ditched her for a reason, remember?[/QUOTE]

Yes


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> The only reason why I had Fly walk over the bridge 3 times is because 1) the first two times she walked over it without stopping and I wanted to be able to get her on stand on it with all 4 feet and 2) I wasnt able to really reward her for it the first two times because once she took that first step after I asked for it, she kept going and going and I immediately thought, well things are going so good, just make way for her to keep going and get to the end.
> 
> So yes, even though perhaps I over rewarded her on the 3rd time, I knew I had to get that in or the whole lesson would have been out the window.


No, no, NO! You're actually doing the OPPOSITE of what you think you're trying to accomplish! 

The lesson should have been to simply accept the trail bridge, whether by walking over it or stopping on it. She did that the very first time! THAT'S when you should have rewarded her. She accepted that you said that bridge wasn't scary and she could go over it without issue. That is the foundation and building block you want to start with. Once she comfortable with that and it's "ho-hum," THEN you can ask her to stop on it. 

I know many of us have used the phrase "Reward the smallest try" with you many, many times. You didn't do that for Fly with the bridge exercise. Instead of rewarding the try, you told her "Nope, not good enough! Do it again." If you don't reward the try, she'll soon get burned out and stop trying.

Think about it as if you're working a job. You're trying your best because you don't quite understand what's being asked of you, but all your boss is doing is saying "Nope. Not good enough. Do it again." and not telling you WHY it wasn't good enough. You gave him what he asked for, in your mind. So, he tells you to do it again and again and again the exact same way, and every time you give him what you think he wants...and it's still not good enough, so he makes you do it again. By this point, you're done. You lose interest, you lose focus, you stop wanting to try because it's not going to be good enough, so why bother. 

She may not think it through like that, but I can bet you that Fly is feeling basically the same way.

Sorry if I'm coming across a little strong. I'm running on very little sleep.


----------



## Hoofpic

The outside trainer just texted me telling me that she will be forwarding me directions to her trainers clinic (held tomorrow) later today. Now, I have not been in touch with her since that lesson with the bag. I was going to text her a couple days ago but I got tied up with other things. 

She thinks that Ive been working on sacking on Fly to the bag on the stick constantly since the last time she has been out, when really I have taken that bag off the stick, threw it out and havent worked on it ever again..

Shes going to be shocked but Im just going to tell her like it is.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> You are right. Yes I am aware its all about steps at a time (even if its baby steps). The last lesson with my outside trainer was THE perfect example of how not do do a lesson where she was sacking out Fly for 1.5 hours with the plastic bag tied onto my carrot stick. She should and easily could have ended it at the 20min mark but she didnt. That lesson (I do think the BO was right calling this as "detramental"), did more harm than good cause im almost certain if I was to pull out a plastic bag today with Fly, she would freak out just as much as she did in the lesson if not more. So that would prove that my outside trainer achieved absolutely nothing in that 1.5 marathon of a lesson but just waste mine and Fly's time and my $50.
> 
> The only reason why I had Fly walk over the bridge 3 times is because 1) the first two times she walked over it without stopping and I wanted to be able to get her on stand on it with all 4 feet and 2) I wasnt able to really reward her for it the first two times because once she took that first step after I asked for it, she kept going and going and I immediately thought, well things are going so good, just make way for her to keep going and get to the end.
> 
> So yes, even though perhaps I over rewarded her on the 3rd time, I knew I had to get that in or the whole lesson would have been out the window.
> 
> I see these clinicians do what they do in their demonstrations and I set the bar for myself way too high. I pretty much walk out of them convincing myself that I can duplicate exactly what I saw on my own without any supervision. Which IMO, sure its great for believing in yourself but i dont think its realistic and a habit that I need to stop.


You did good! What's wrong with leading her over the bridge? If she hadn't followed you how would she even know it was something to walk over? To her it's just a thing she could easily walk around.
I'll bet you moved your feet to walk over the bridge so right there it proves moving your feet works. The 'not moving your feet' thing refers to someone trying to lunge a horse where the horse just stands there & the person runs around trying to get the horse to move or some variation of the same.
Handler position is key & sometimes, often, we half to move to maintain correct position in relation to the horse.

You did right to lead her over first because it made sense to her to follow you. If you want her to stand on it start by doing step, whoa, step, whoa- away from the bridge. Then add the same thing at the bridge. Have her step on with one or two front feet, whoa-ask for another step & so on. When she does that well add step, whoa, back- one step at a time again away from the bridge then try it on the bridge. (I'll PM you may address so you can send me 50 bucks :wink 

I'll also bet Greentree will be happy with your success.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> So that would prove that my outside trainer achieved absolutely nothing in that 1.5 marathon of a lesson but just waste mine and Fly's time and my $50.
> 
> The only reason why I had Fly walk over the bridge 3 times is because 1) the first two times she walked over it without stopping and I wanted to be able to get her on stand on it with all 4 feet and 2) I wasnt able to really reward her for it the first two times because once she took that first step after I asked for it, she kept going and going and I immediately thought, well things are going so good, just make way for her to keep going and get to the end.
> 
> So yes, even though perhaps I over rewarded her on the 3rd time, I knew I had to get that in or the whole lesson would have been out the window.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> You are over thinking something that's pretty simple.......horses are rewarded by the release of pressure so as soon as you release the pressure to cross the bridge, she was rewarded. The whole lesson would not have been wasted because you accomplished what you set out to do.
> 
> 
> Horses do not need all this reward you seem to think you have to lavish on your mare --- what they seek is the release of pressure which tells them they performed correctly. I sure don't "reward" my mare every time she backs when I ask or negotiates an obstacle---I release pressure, which tells her she did good!


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> The outside trainer just texted me telling me that she will be forwarding me directions to her trainers clinic (held tomorrow) later today. Now, I have not been in touch with her since that lesson with the bag. I was going to text her a couple days ago but I got tied up with other things.
> 
> She thinks that Ive been working on sacking on Fly to the bag on the stick constantly since the last time she has been out, when really I have taken that bag off the stick, threw it out and havent worked on it ever again..
> 
> Shes going to be shocked but Im just going to tell her like it is.


I'll be more shocked if you tell her like it is.:wink:


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> No, no, NO! You're actually doing the OPPOSITE of what you think you're trying to accomplish!


Wait, what part are you relating to?



> The lesson should have been to simply accept the trail bridge, whether by walking over it or stopping on it. She did that the very first time! THAT'S when you should have rewarded her.


I rewarded her by saying good girl and a quick rub on the forehead with the carrot stick when she put her front foot on the bridge. Only thing is, as soon as that carrot stick reached her head, her foot was coming away from the pad. I was a tad late on this because what she did was actually tap the bridge first a few times with her paw and of course the first thing I saw it as was pawing so I didnt know if i should have rewarded her for it right away.



> She accepted that you said that bridge wasn't scary and she could go over it without issue. That is the foundation and building block you want to start with. Once she comfortable with that and it's "ho-hum," THEN you can ask her to stop on it.


Ok. So I did the right thing then by walking her over it twice before getting her to stand on it. I did the exact same thing when I worked with her on the tarp.



> I know many of us have used the phrase "Reward the smallest try" with you many, many times. You didn't do that for Fly with the bridge exercise.


I did. You will see in the video. When she walked over it twice, I said good girl and I think I praised her with rubs after as well but I need to see my video again. 



> Instead of rewarding the try, you told her "Nope, not good enough! Do it again." If you don't reward the try, she'll soon get burned out and stop trying.


Im aware of this and praying I didnt do this. Lets watch the video and assess.



> Think about it as if you're working a job. You're trying your best because you don't quite understand what's being asked of you, but all your boss is doing is saying "Nope. Not good enough. Do it again." and not telling you WHY it wasn't good enough. You gave him what he asked for, in your mind. So, he tells you to do it again and again and again the exact same way, and every time you give him what you think he wants...and it's still not good enough, so he makes you do it again. By this point, you're done. You lose interest, you lose focus, you stop wanting to try because it's not going to be good enough, so why bother.



Great clear example, thank you.



> She may not think it through like that, but I can bet you that Fly is feeling basically the same way.


I hope not, let me view the video again.



> Sorry if I'm coming across a little strong. I'm running on very little sleep.


You're not dont worry. I take it all in stride, I dont take offense to any advice.


----------



## Hoofpic

Drafty, I just watched the video. 

Ok the first time I got her on, (this was my mistake), I had the intention of wanting to get her to stand on it with all 4 feet at first so I didnt quite move back with her as she got on but Id tell her woah. So she would be moving back and fourth and I didnt want to risk rewarding her for moving back (which is obviously not what I wanted), so as a result, it didnt work out as she ended up stepping off the pallette from the side. This was my fault.

But the next time I got her on, when her first foot got on, I said good girl and I did give her a quick scratch on her withers.


----------



## greentree

I do not understand why you know I would be disappointed about what you did....


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Ditch the carrot stick for close work if it's delaying your response. 

What I meant by you're doing the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish is that in the post I quoted, you said that you waited until the third time she got on the bridge to reward her because she didn't do it perfectly the first two times. Perfect doesn't matter when you're just starting out. It's the TRY that matters. If all you're focused on is "perfect," then you miss the try and the "perfect" becomes meaningless. 

Natisha's suggestion of practicing what you want to accomplish away from the bridge, then moving the lesson to the bridge when you get what you want is a great one. 

My question to you is this: when she walked over the bridge, did you ever ask her to stop?


----------



## greentree

When you are training horses to get on stuff, you get one foot, then back them up BEFORE they get the idea to back up on their own. IMO, #1 reason why you need to practice NOT needing to give all of this unnecessary petting, scratching goo-goo-ga-ga rewarding.
In doing all that, you are missing the reward moment all together, and causing something else to happen. Just smile, relax into a breath, and move on. THAT is a reward.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> I noticed the trainer from the clinic last weekend did this exact same thing (shes not Parelli) and I asked her this exact same question on why she does this. She said "Because I never asked for that foot to go where the horse chose to move it and by me instantly correcting him by making him move that foot back to where it was, it tells him that, that's not what I asked for".





Hoofpic said:


> I noticed the trainer from the clinic last weekend did this exact same thing (shes not Parelli)





Hoofpic said:


> I noticed the trainer from the clinic last weekend





Hoofpic said:


> I noticed the trainer





Hoofpic said:


> the trainer





Hoofpic said:


> trainer





Hoofpic said:


> *TRAINER*



Trainer, hoofpic. Something you are not.

Green horses you are always starting from 0. Fussing over ONE foot when your goal is to get her from A to B will do more harm than good.

More advanced horses? Sure, you can focus on one foot. But babies/fresh meat? NO.

You are being a weak confusing leader if you do that. Every try should be an improvement, not a micro-managing correction.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Skyseternalangel said:


> Trainer, hoofpic. Something you are not.
> 
> Green horses you are always starting from 0. Fussing over ONE foot when your goal is to get her from A to B will do more harm than good.
> 
> More advanced horses? Sure, you can focus on one foot. But babies/fresh meat? NO.
> 
> You are being a weak confusing leader if you do that. Every try should be an improvement, not a micro-managing correction.


Wish I could like this a BILLION TIMES!!! :loveshower:


----------



## tinyliny

Hi, Hoofpic, it's me again.

ok, I just skimmed the recent posts, so may be repeating things others have already said, but let me address this that you said, and the idea espoused by your 'outside trainer'.

"I feel that I should do it like how I observe it because each little thing means something. *So when I ask Fly to take a step forward and she takes a step to the side (this is also what my outside trainer kept harping on me about) is that you move that exact same foot that she moved to the exact same spot that it came from. And if she keeps doing it, then you keep moving that foot back. 
*
Now, when my outside trainer first started working with me and this was one of the things that she wanted me to start doing for everything, I did question if it would be seen as borderline micro managing. I still don't know to this day if it is or not."

let's say you are asking Fly to put a foot forward, as you say. she is confused or distracted or irritated or whatever, and she backs a couple of steps away, instead. you want to correct that, but it's not that you are needing her to return to the exact same spot. THAT is not important. what's important is that you say "no" to her choice, . . . and then ask again.

you see, training a horse is about asking them to choose something, (and you are suggesting they choose 'come forward'), and ALLOWING them to make a choice. if they choose something other than what you are asking, you interrupt that choice . that is your correction. just interrupt that choice. THEN, ask again and wait for them to search around for the answer that doesn't get interrupted. if you take the time to place them back on the exact spot again, you are putting too much time and activity between your correction and what you corrected them for. again, just like petting on them, you are taking them away from thinking about their own actions and reactions, and taking their brains back on to something else.

after a hrose is more trained, you may start working on placing them exactly where you want them. but, initially, it doesn't matter where they stand when they asnwer your "come forward" request correctly. all that matters is that they choose correctly.


----------



## Prairie

Skyseternalangel said:


> Trainer, hoofpic. Something you are not.
> 
> Green horses you are always starting from 0. Fussing over ONE foot when your goal is to get her from A to B will do more harm than good.
> 
> More advanced horses? Sure, you can focus on one foot. But babies/fresh meat? NO.
> 
> You are being a weak confusing leader if you do that. Every try should be an improvement, not a micro-managing correction.



Great analysis of the situation!


You have to learn to walk before you can run! Some times being a strong leader means you leave well enough alone and praise the try even if it wasn't perfect.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> You did good! What's wrong with leading her over the bridge? If she hadn't followed you how would she even know it was something to walk over? To her it's just a thing she could easily walk around.
> I'll bet you moved your feet to walk over the bridge so right there it proves moving your feet works. The 'not moving your feet' thing refers to someone trying to lunge a horse where the horse just stands there & the person runs around trying to get the horse to move or some variation of the same.
> Handler position is key & sometimes, often, we half to move to maintain correct position in relation to the horse.
> 
> You did right to lead her over first because it made sense to her to follow you. If you want her to stand on it start by doing step, whoa, step, whoa- away from the bridge. Then add the same thing at the bridge. Have her step on with one or two front feet, whoa-ask for another step & so on. When she does that well add step, whoa, back- one step at a time again away from the bridge then try it on the bridge. (I'll PM you may address so you can send me 50 bucks :wink
> 
> I'll also bet Greentree will be happy with your success.


YOu will see in my video but what I did was when she would move her feet to the side of the bridge, I would get off the bridge and walk with her back to where I wanted her. 

Then when I have her back in front of the bridge again and I would walk over it while facing her, I think that told her what I wanted from her. I made it pretty obvious.

The step on, whoa, step on, whoa I did do but I did it too early. I tried doing this before even walking her on, which it didnt click in my head until after I tried it.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Ditch the carrot stick for close work if it's delaying your response.
> 
> What I meant by you're doing the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish is that in the post I quoted, you said that you waited until the third time she got on the bridge to reward her because she didn't do it perfectly the first two times. Perfect doesn't matter when you're just starting out. It's the TRY that matters. If all you're focused on is "perfect," then you miss the try and the "perfect" becomes meaningless.
> 
> Natisha's suggestion of practicing what you want to accomplish away from the bridge, then moving the lesson to the bridge when you get what you want is a great one.
> 
> My question to you is this: when she walked over the bridge, did you ever ask her to stop?


Ok thanks for clarfying.

No, sorry my mistake, I watched the video again and I did reward her the first time she put her foot on the bridge. You will see it. 

Natishas suggestion is great and its actually something that I always do and have done with other objects. Like when I walked Fly over the tarp, I first walked her around it with me inbetween her and the tarp. Then I walked her by it with me walking on the tarp and her on the dirt. Then, I tried walking her on and across the tarp by just regular leading her on her side. Didnt work cause she would lead fine but as soon as we got to the tarp she would walk around it. 

So this is where I simplified things even more and I had her sniff the tarp on her own, and for as long as she needed. Then I stepped on the tarp myself so that i was facing her. Let her sniff some more while I relaxed my body language and didnt look at her, put my heel up and then when she was ready I would look at her again and ask for a step. As soon as she gave me that step, I would reward her. 

With the tarp, I first had to get one foot on, then two, then we walked over it. Then I had her stand with all 4 on there. It was a lot harder than the bridge IMO. When I get time, I will re-do the tarp again and record it for you guys.

I did the same thing with the logs, I would walk her through her to show her what I wanted before actually having her back up through them.

When I walked her over the bridge, I did ask her to stop the first time (but this was because I first wanted to get her to stand on the bridge with all 4 ft first before walking her over it), however I realized after she stepped off it sideways and it didnt work that I should get her to walk over it completely THEN get her to stand on it next time. So this was my mistake. 

The 3rd time that I got her to stand on it with all 4 feet, I asked her to stop but I didnt have to give much of a que. She got on and kinda followed me. As soon as I stopped she did as well.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> When you are training horses to get on stuff, you get one foot, then back them up BEFORE they get the idea to back up on their own. IMO, #1 reason why you need to practice NOT needing to give all of this unnecessary petting, scratching goo-goo-ga-ga rewarding.
> In doing all that, you are missing the reward moment all together, and causing something else to happen. Just smile, relax into a breath, and move on. THAT is a reward.


Never would have t hought of that - backing them up one step after they put a foot on the object. This did cross my mind, but I was worried that you would be getting them to focus on having a "back" first logic when approaching objects.


----------



## 6gun Kid

I'm either really tired, really dense, or just plain confused (and quite possibly all three).
I am going to ask you one simple question, and it is a yes or no question. I want no buts or attempted explanations. Was your goal to get your horse on the bridge?


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Trainer, hoofpic. Something you are not.
> 
> Green horses you are always starting from 0. Fussing over ONE foot when your goal is to get her from A to B will do more harm than good.
> 
> More advanced horses? Sure, you can focus on one foot. But babies/fresh meat? NO.
> 
> You are being a weak confusing leader if you do that. Every try should be an improvement, not a micro-managing correction.


I agree with you that green horses you always start from 0 and working away at bits at a time.

THat is why last weekends clinician surprised me. She was given a horse (that she never met or worked with prior) who was a 9 year old gelding who was very green, had very time in the saddle and was mostly used by the owner to push cows. 

He was a very spooky horse and had an accident at the old place that has caused him to be very scared being worked on his right side. Owner couldnt get him on a tarp, on a bridge, not even near a big ball. This horse was much more reactive than my mare is.

So when the trainer would get him to step on the bridge, she would walk him up to it and she would step onto the bridge backwards so she faces him. Then have him line up perfectly facing her and right dead centre of the bridge. 

As soon as she would step sideways, she would use her long whip to tap him on that leg to get him to move right back. So if he took one step, she moves him back one step. If he took two steps, she moves him back two steps. And exactly to where his footprint was. So if they spend 10 seconds or 45seconds to get his foot back to where he was, then she spends that time doing it.

Now this boy would always step where the trainer didnt want him to so as you can imagine, there was a lot of time spend with her correcting him and putting his feet back to where they were.

As soon as he steps forward onto the bridge. She would rub and reward him on the forehead with the whip. Another step, another rub. Rinse and repeat. Eventually, after about 3 or 4 walk overs on the bridge, this boy was completely fine with the bridge altogether. 

Now, did she micromanage him by not letting him move his feet to the side or any other direction aside from forward? Perhaps. But I just found this interesting seeing how green this horse was and how spooky he was of objects in general.

Mind you, she worked with him for 3.5hrs so thats obviously a lot different than 10mins with me and my mare last night, but still.

And now knowing that it was okay that I did not micromanage and spend endless hoards of time last night getting my mare to put her feet back to where she was, makes me more comfortable showing my video. Yes I did still take the effort to move her back to the front of the bridge (where I wanted her to enter from) but I didnt take the extra effort to get her feet in the exact spot where they were (which is great).

But like I said, I dont have that ability anyway (at least not standing 3-4ft away from her while on the bridge) to be able to do this anyway. That is why you will see in the video that what I eventually did was just step off the bridge myself to re-walk her to the front of the bridge again while I stepped over it again. I hope this was ok. 

Video is almost uploaded for you guys to see.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> I'm either really tired, really dense, or just plain confused (and quite possibly all three).
> I am going to ask you one simple question, and it is a yes or no question. I want no buts or attempted explanations. *Was your goal to get your horse on the bridge?*


Yes it was


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Yes it was


 congratulations, it was a successful training session. I have said it before and I am going to say it again. *GET OUT OF YOUR HEAD!*
You need to let go of this perception that it has to be perfection or nothing. You and your horse are both far too inexperienced to accomplish what you feel you need to accomplish. Reward the try, ditch the carrot stick and rubs, and hugs and massages. When she_* TRIES *, _just tries, reward her by releasing. Not pester her to get it right on the first attempt and thereby setting you both up for failure. It is a marathon, not a sprint.


----------



## Hoofpic

Outside trainer is not fond with my decision. Says I should still attend her trainers clinic tomorrow. She says if I want Fly to be willing and have the best partnership I need to do it her way because the Parelli way is proven and any other way I won't achieve the same results. She says she knows its my decision on where I want to go from here with my mare and I, but she thinks Im making a mistake and not looking out for the best for Fly.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Outside trainer is not happy with my decision. Says I should still attend her trainers clinic tomorrow. She says if I want Fly to be willing and have the best partnership I need to do it her way and any other way I won't achieve the same results.


And that right there shows her true colors. Instead of accepting your decision like an adult and moving on, she's trying to guilt you and use scare tactics into getting you to do something you don't want to do. 

Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> And that right there shows her true colors. Instead of accepting your decision like an adult and moving on, she's trying to guilt you and use scare tactics into getting you to do something you don't want to do.
> 
> Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say.


I know some of you will be dissapointed with what I told her. Again, I didnt want to create any hate or drama or burn bridges (the horse world is small), and I still saw a lot of good in her and was very thankful for what she did for me and my mare.

I didnt say that her opinion of my mare not being saddle ready was a conflict with my other trainer. But I said that the last lesson with the bag didnt sit too well with the two boarders and the BO and I cant have you out anymore for liability reasons".

WHICH IS STILL TRUE. Im not lying to her, Im being honest. Its just Im keeping things simple and no need for me to spill all the beans to her. I was going to mention me going the riding route, but you know what? I learned from the last time that sometimes its better to keep your mouth shut and I did this time. I dont wany any hostility between us.

I think she is just dissapointed that if I really did want her as a trainer, I would do everything I can to make it happen. WHether its telling my BO that she is not the "detramental" trainer he and other boarders see her as, or moving to another barn. Because she offered for me to bring my mare to her place to do lessons and I said its too much work and trouble.

Shes definitely in complete shock and did not see this coming.


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## Hoofpic

I hate to say it (and I dont mean to go on about it) but Im still crushed about no longer having her out to the barn. But Im confident I can live up to the challenge of being the best leader for my mare without having a trainer by my side. I definitely couldnt say those words a month ago (and that just goes to show how much this trainer has done for me).

Anyways here is last nights video.

You can bring up any points you would like but please dont be too hard, I know I made some mistakes. 

Also when she spooked, I always correct her that way. It surprised me, that was probably the first time she spooked like that in a couple months.


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## Skyseternalangel

At 0.29 she tries to go forward but you cue her to stop. Next time allow her to go forward, and she'd be standing on the bridge sooner.

That is all.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> At 0.29 she tries to go forward but you cue her to stop. Next time allow her to go forward, and she'd be standing on the bridge sooner.
> 
> That is all.


Yes that was my mistake cause at the start I had the initial plan of getting her to stand with all 4 feet on the bridge, thats why I kept telling her woah. But after she stepped off sideways thats when I realized it would make more sense to get her to walk over it a couple times before asking her to stand on it.

Now, the next time I do this with her...if I can manage to walk up to the bridge, onto and over it without stopping that would be great. Its obvious once she is on it, she is confident enough to carry through to the end. So the biggest obstacle is getting her onto it without stopping as if its nothing. Its just a bridge, nothing to worry about.

ANd if I can focus on getting her to pay attention to me that would be great. Could I have corrected her more for not paying attention to me? Yes. But I didnt because I didnt want to create tension.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Yes that was my mistake cause at the start I had the initial plan of getting her to stand with all 4 feet on the bridge, thats why I kept telling her woah. But after she stepped off sideways *thats when I realized it would make more sense to get her to walk over it a couple times before asking her to stand on it.*


Great, best thing you have written all day, YOU REALIZED, that is what it is all about, you figured it out, well done.



Hoofpic said:


> Now, the next time I do this with her...if I can manage to walk up to the bridge, onto and over it without stopping that would be great. Its obvious once she is on it, she is confident enough to carry through to the end. So the biggest obstacle is getting her onto it without stopping as if its nothing. Its just a bridge, nothing to worry about.


Try not looking at her while you do it, just walk across the bridge and expect her to follow, because as you rightly so it's no big deal. When I look at you standing on the bridge, looking at her, confrontational, I think she is a good mare to come up as quick as she did. The way she is with it I would be wanting to have her just walk beside me next time, just like leading her anywhere, she walks on the bridge, you walk alongside.

I don't know much about carrot sticks and such, but you were very slow to swap stick and lead hand over when she kept sliding out on the same side, I would have changed over a lot earlier, block the side that they are going to.

Last, it was a total non event for her, not worried in the slightest, so she was bored, looking for something more exciting outside the arena...


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## natisha

Very good. I was so happy when you lead her up the bridge at 5:22. 
Have you ever loaded a horse in a trailer? I've found that facing them makes it harder to do while looking forward & walking gets the job done easier.
Try sending her over with you on the side using a leading hand as you would with lunging or leading.

One tip, knock the little corner off the middle of your bridge. If she steps down wrong & hits that it could harm her.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Great, best thing you have written all day, YOU REALIZED, that is what it is all about, you figured it out, well done..


It clicked for me, but still I should have known this before starting. Oh well.



> Try not looking at her while you do it, just walk across the bridge and expect her to follow, because as you rightly so it's no big deal. When I look at you standing on the bridge, looking at her, confrontational, I think she is a good mare to come up as quick as she did. The way she is with it I would be wanting to have her just walk beside me next time, just like leading her anywhere, she walks on the bridge, you walk alongside..


Actually this is EXACLTY what I was planning on doing, but I know to start it wouldnt work. Ive walked my mare over logs before on jumping stands (nothing high about 2ft off the ground) but high enough for her to take notice that she needs to pick up all 4 feet to not trip over them. And what I did was I just lead her and carried on and she followed the first time. The most important thing that I learned was to not slow down in the process and keep your pace the same from when you start to when you finish. The horse will mimic you as they go up to the log and over it.



> I don't know much about carrot sticks and such, but you were very slow to swap stick and lead hand over when she kept sliding out on the same side, I would have changed over a lot earlier, block the side that they are going to..


Ya Im not the quickest with the carrot stick. It depends what im doing and how much Ive done it. With some stuff Im noticably quicker with it.



> Last, it was a total non event for her, not worried in the slightest, so she was bored, looking for something more exciting outside the arena...


It was a start but the next time I do it, I need her to give me her full attention and accept nothing less. So if I need to put her rope halter on and correct her a few times to pay attention then ill do it. I dont know why I still bring her into the arena with her red halter on when I know the rope one is much more effective in giving ques due to the pressure points.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Very good. I was so happy when you lead her up the bridge at 5:22.
> Have you ever loaded a horse in a trailer? I've found that facing them makes it harder to do while looking forward & walking gets the job done easier.
> Try sending her over with you on the side using a leading hand as you would with lunging or leading.
> 
> One tip, knock the little corner off the middle of your bridge. If she steps down wrong & hits that it could harm her.


Thanks. Ive never loaded a horse in a trailer before but have observed many people do it before. 

The reason why I faced her was because i had a sense that I would have better control of her steps as she gets on it. If she steps to the left, I bring her back to the centre, vice versa. THis is how the trainer in the clinic last weekend did it. But again, she also was managing every step, so if the horse took one step sideways, he moves that same foot back to where the footprint was.

I could walk her onto it by just standing on her side and I will try this as well.

When I went to the clinic over a month ago where I got a mare to step onto and over a full size bed mattress, this is the route I took. I would step onto the mattress then onto the side of it (about half way into it) and ask for her first step.

That corner I will take it off. The guy at the shop didnt cut them plywood correctly for me and it was a couple inches short on each end, so thats why I had to overlap from the smaller pallette so that when a horse walks between the two there is no gap.


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## Prairie

Leading a horse over an obstacle should be just like leading her on plain ground-----you both face the same direction and just do it. Once again you are over thinking this and trying to micromanage the mare, losing her focus because she's bored, and actually confusing her by backing her up and worrying about her feet. The fumbling of that carrot stick and the lead accomplished nothing---ditch that stick unless you need it as an extension of your arm when you are working her from a distance such as lunging. At least you got her over the makeshift bridge so you accomplished your objective.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Leading a horse over an obstacle should be just like leading her on plain ground-----you both face the same direction and just do it. Once again you are over thinking this and trying to micromanage the mare, losing her focus because she's bored, and actually confusing her by backing her up and worrying about her feet. The fumbling of that carrot stick and the lead accomplished nothing---ditch that stick unless you need it as an extension of your arm when you are working her from a distance such as lunging. At least you got her over the makeshift bridge so you accomplished your objective.


Thanks. I need to get the outside trainers methology of micro managing each step my mare takes out of my mind. Also, the trainer from this past weekend has the same mindset. I really wish I had gotten the clinic from last weekend on tape because if y ou thought my outside trainer micro manages, well the trainer last week was even worse. She literally had to have the gelding go in an exactly straight line for her to be happy. Even if he moved one of his front feet 2cm, she would still correct him. And this is a green horse who was 10x spookier than my mare, they didnt know each other and they were starting from 0.

But you know why the outside trainer preached on me for it? Cause she said it was to set firmer boundaries with my mare so she knows what her boundaries are in terms of what she can and cant get away with. So for instance, if I tell her to stand, she is to stand. Not move a single step or else she gets put back into place. 

If Im doing the squeeze game in the arena and she moves without me asking her to, well move her back to where she was and in the exact same spot. Is that micro managing?

I will give you an example. Say you are outside (or anywhere) and you are asking your horse to stand. Then turn their head to look at something and they take a single step forward or sideways, or move their HQ around. Do YOU correct them by putting their feet back to where they just were?

Now what if it was 2 or 3 steps?

Because I do know how crucial it is for me (especially me) to have and keep firm boundaries with my mare cause she has a tendency to constantly test them to see what she can get away with. But I also do not want to micro manage her because both of us are far better off without that garbage.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I need to get the outside trainers methology of micro managing each step my mare takes out of my mind.
> 
> But you know why she preached on me for it? Cause she said it was to set firmer boundaries with my mare so she knows what her boundaries are in terms of what she can and cant get away with.
> 
> I will give you an example. Say you are outside (or anywhere) and you are asking your horse to stand. Then turn their head to look at something and they take a single step forward or sideways, or move their HQ around. Do YOU correct them by putting their feet back to where they just were?
> 
> Now what if it was 2 or 3 steps?


I'd correct them with my hand on the lead before they could make those moves. If I needed to do more it wouldn't be looking at any body part but giving a jerk on the rope & saying 'stand' "quit' or whatever. I may or may not put their feet right back depending on the circumstance & the horse.


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## Prairie

The problem is you are not experienced enough to know when to correct her and when to let her be, nor are you able to read her so you can head off any testing before she even tries. This is why green + green is never a good idea. You need a horse who is set in his training and can teach you. This mare is not that horse, although I do admit she is a saint. Also remember it is your job to keep her focused and if you lost her attention, the correction should be to you for failing to make the lesson interesting for her. A carrot stick is an extension of your arm and not a correction device, nor do you have the correct timing to get in the correction so she knows what she did wrong. 


Forget everything that outside trainer said and taught you----the Parelli methodology is not proven to be better and it has evolved into a market scheme to relieve the followers of their money. Most of the followers never even get to the point where they ride their horses.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I'd correct them with my hand on the lead before they could make those moves. If I needed to do more it wouldn't be looking at any body part but giving a jerk on the rope & saying 'stand' "quit' or whatever. I may or may not put their feet right back depending on the circumstance & the horse.


Ok. Now see with my mare, I think her and I are better off by me putting her back to where she was. Ill tell you why. 

Now dont get me wrong, Im not going to pull out the microscope and examine that she is exactly where she was (like how my outside trainer did) cause that was micro managing. With my outside trainer, she would make me put my mare back exactly where she was. So I would move her back and she would have me keep going it until she was exactly where she was. Now that is micro managing. 

For instance, say my mare takes a step forward when I told her to stand. IMO, what I would do is just back her up one step, but Im not going to look down at her feet to make sure her feet were in the spot it just was seconds ago. Back her up, done, its over and done with. That makes her think "oh I took a step forward, now im being forced to back up a step, I better not move forward". Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard right? 

If she moves to the side two steps, same thing, move her back to the side two steps. If its 1 step, make her move one. Like one of my past trainers told me, "step for a step"..."If they move two steps and you only move them back one....they will remember it for next time"...."point for her".

The good thing is that I've gotten Fly to ground tie really well. She's nowhere near what you would see from say a senior horse or a horse that was hobble tied but she is far better than she once was. I have no problem brushing, grooming her, picking her feet outside with just having the lead in my hand (I know thats technically not ground tying), but its not a good idea to have any horse ground tied outside, in case they flee. My mare wont, but again you never know. They could hear a noise in the back field and next thing you know theyre gone and you have to catch them. Not fun.

But Ive groundtied her in the arena before while brushing and grooming her and she stood really well. She knows the drill. All she has to do is stand.

And you know what? Ive worked on ground tying with her quite a bit but I havent really taken things to the next level. And that next level would be ground tying in a grassy place, say round pen (since I would need it to be enclosed). I think this would really be beneficial. Maybe ill try it this weekend. Bring her to the roundpen (since we have grass in ours). Ground tie her and brush and groom her. It will be a good test for me.

Did I tell you about that one lesson I had with my outside trainer? We were working on yielding FQ, from my mares left to right with me standing on her left (her good side). Now my mare kept taking a step forward every single time before I even asked her to yield her FQ away from me. Well lets just say that I wasnt yielding her FQ for awhile and not a lot because my trainer made me put her back to the exact spot that my mare was in before taking a step forward. She said you do this because "you didnt ask her to step forward...what she is doing is incredibly rude, she can stand and you need to be firm on her about it". 

I must have put her back to where she was 30 times in that one lesson. What are your thoughts on this? I ask because this is a prime example.


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## sarahfromsc

It should not have taken 30 times. And if the outside trainer let it go on for 30 times, well, that speaks for itself.


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## Prairie

I suspect that trainer was having you correct the poor mare for some handling error that was your fault instead of figuring out what you were doing wrong-----it should not take 30 tries to get a horse to do something so simple correctly if the handler executes the cue correctly!


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## piglet

Thirty times?!!!!

If your outside so-called trainer really had you do that to your poor sweet mare...grrrr.

If you were in a classroom, and your teacher told you over and over and over, "Nope! Wrong! Do it again!" and never explained or demonstrated HOW to do it correctly, I do not think you would like that teacher for very long.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> I suspect that trainer was having you correct the poor mare for some handling error that was your fault instead of figuring out what you were doing wrong-----it should not take 30 tries to get a horse to do something so simple correctly if the handler executes the cue correctly!


Ok 30 might be a bit much but it was at least 12 times. 

My mare was taking a step forward but onto my side. So in other words she was turning her head to my side and taking a step. So my trainer was getting me to put her back to where she was by guiding her muzzle and shoulder back to where they were with energy from the carrot stick.

At the start I wasnt near hard enough on Fly. But once I was, she stopped and got the point. This was completely new to me because im not used to giving a firm tap on my mares muzzle with sticks. It also was new to me because all my trainer kept telling me was "keep your feet still! Dont move your feet!" This and of course, having to put Fly back in the "Exact" same spot where she was, (while keeping my feet planted), was just a bit of a challenge for me at the time.

If I was to do the same thing today though, things would be much different. All I had to do was pick up my energy and be harder on FLy much much sooner and she would have quit it within 3 times doing it tops. This lesson was almost a month ago, so it was quite a bit of time ago.

But even when I lunged Fly, my trainer wouldnt let me turn around in circles on a dime. She said im not keeping my feet still so she would make me plant the toes of my inside foot into the ground and pivot off it with my other foot. So im using my outside foot to spin me. A bit excessive and over the top? Perhaps.


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## greentree

OK, here is my take....YoU looked scared to death of the bridge. SHE had no problem with it. Then she got on, and she got the bad vibes from you. Then when you stepped off of the bridge, she pretty much rammed into you, and you rugged her withers with the carrot stick. Precisely why we do not recommend beginners have green horses.....

Fly is a sweet, calm horse. She does not need all of that corrective NH work. What I see is precisely why green + green= black and blue. If this is reinforced a few times, then you have a horse barging over everybody. Then, you need to hire a trainer to fix it. See if someone else has a horse for you to learn on.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I will give you an example. Say you are outside (or anywhere) and you are asking your horse to stand. Then turn their head to look at something and they take a single step forward or sideways, or move their HQ around. Do YOU correct them by putting their feet back to where they just were?


The real answer is of course, "It all depends" 

Example, not on the ground but riding....we were doing trot-halt-trot exercises with my mare the other day, but she wouldn't stand still, my reaction was to try and insist that she stand, my trainers was "NO push her on make her trot again" Every time we came to a halt and she shifted we just went straight back into the trot, made her work. After about 10 minutes I asked for a halt and she was happy just to stand still, she was fed up with having to work her butt off.

So it is very simplistic to say, "put the feet back where they were" 

On the ground, if she moves when I have stood her I may back her to where she was, I may run her back several feet if it was a disrespectful move, I might circle her and make her stand again, as I say it all depends.

My other mare, I would just gently put her back, if she moved she had a good reason.

My gelding, I'd wack him on the shoulder and put him back to where he was......not exactly, just to a place where I decide is good


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## greentree

You keep saying you are determined....but I may be determined to teach kids math....however, if I keep telling them 2+2= 5, what good am I doing?


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## KigerQueen

^ yes! i lernt with my mare but she was not green. im now working with green and its making ME feel green. and im Green with English and hence why im only attempting it with a trainer. and she steps in and fixed what ever i just messed up. give me another shot and if i mess up again she fixes it. i can understand body language thanks to my not so green mare who LOVED to be worked on the ground. odie not so much.


I thought my arab would have a heart attack on half the obsticalls in a trail challenge including the teatre totter. she did not care at all. if you think it will end bad it will. act like nothing is different and its just another day in the park and you will be fine. if she has a moment just walk her away and right back to it and try again. only reward her when she is calm.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> OK, here is my take....YoU looked scared to death of the bridge. SHE had no problem with it. Then she got on, and she got the bad vibes from you. Then when you stepped off of the bridge, she pretty much rammed into you, and you rugged her withers with the carrot stick. Precisely why we do not recommend beginners have green horses.....
> 
> Fly is a sweet, calm horse. She does not need all of that corrective NH work. What I see is precisely why green + green= black and blue. If this is reinforced a few times, then you have a horse barging over everybody. Then, you need to hire a trainer to fix it. See if someone else has a horse for you to learn on.


What makes you think Im scared of the bridge? I was not at all scared.

She didnt ram into me. I lead her that way. There was not a lot of space there. Next time I will put the pallettes more in the centre of the arena. I put them there so you guys could get a good view.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> The real answer is of course, "It all depends"
> 
> Example, not on the ground but riding....we were doing trot-halt-trot exercises with my mare the other day, but she wouldn't stand still, my reaction was to try and insist that she stand, my trainers was "NO push her on make her trot again" Every time we came to a halt and she shifted we just went straight back into the trot, made her work. After about 10 minutes I asked for a halt and she was happy just to stand still, she was fed up with having to work her butt off.
> 
> So it is very simplistic to say, "put the feet back where they were"
> 
> On the ground, if she moves when I have stood her I may back her to where she was, I may run her back several feet if it was a disrespectful move, I might circle her and make her stand again, as I say it all depends.
> 
> My other mare, I would just gently put her back, if she moved she had a good reason.
> 
> My gelding, I'd wack him on the shoulder and put him back to where he was......not exactly, just to a place where I decide is good


Thanks for the examples, that helps. For my mare, I think its best if I stand firm with her and keep the boundaries where they are. So if I ask her to stand, she must stand. If she moves, ill move her back but I wont micro manage and make sure she goes exactly where she was. Ill move her back and move on.


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## greentree

You looked scared, AKA not confident. Not that you were scared of the bridge, I suppose, but afraid of what the horse was going to do. 
I will take your word for the second point, but it looked like she was about to step on you, then you rewarded her.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You looked scared, AKA not confident. Not that you were scared of the bridge, I suppose, but afraid of what the horse was going to do.
> I will take your word for the second point, but it looked like she was about to step on you, then you rewarded her.


Well no I was not at all scared and I was confident I could get her on it. If I was scared, I wouldnt be doing it because I wouldnt want my mare to feed off it. I was as relaxed as I could be.

No she wasnt anywhere near stepping on me. Its just my camera was nearby as well so there wasnt a lot of room. Next time I do it, I will be sure to give us more room all around.

If I did it again this weekend, do you think that would be too soon? I was planning on doing the bridge again and then pulling out the tarp and making some L shaped logs again.


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## Rainaisabelle

So I didn't watch it all sorry... But what I saw was a horse who wasn't listening, wasn't interested and was extremely confused. She WAS walking all over you and all over the place and even I felt confused when watching..


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## greentree

Too SOON?? You are seriously confused. You can do it all day long, everyday, if you want.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Well no I was not at all scared and I was confident I could get her on it. If I was scared, I wouldnt be doing it because I wouldnt want my mare to feed off it. I was as relaxed as I could be.
> 
> No she wasnt anywhere near stepping on me. Its just my camera was nearby as well so there wasnt a lot of room. Next time I do it, I will be sure to give us more room all around.
> 
> If I did it again this weekend, do you think that would be too soon? I was planning on doing the bridge again and then pulling out the tarp and making some L shaped logs again.


No, it's not too soon. You could ride her over it if you want to. 
You can do a lot with a bridge. Long way, short side, 2 legs on & side pass off, back off, whatever you want. Just read your horse & you'll get there but mix it up with something else so it remains fun for her & you too.


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## Golden Horse

natisha said:


> Just read your horse & you'll get there but mix it up with something else so it remains fun for her & you too.


Good advice


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## paintedpastures

Watched some of your video. I can see that Fly has a very willing quiet demeanor & could see her walking up over that bridge with no hesitation given more solid direction. You have her following along on a loose lead giving her no sense of direction really from your body language or lead.Because of that she is not paying full attention to you, the one that is to be leader! but rather her attention is split between you vs her surroundings:icon_rolleyes:. You have to maintain her focus/attention to you. You need to confidently walk beside her have light contact with lead pointing her in direction you wish her to go pointing her forward onto bridge. If not room beside her on bridge either you be beside her just off bridge on ground but continue leading her forward up & over or if you go ahead on bridge she should follow you up with the light pressure asking her to move forward. I see she hesitated coming all the way up to share bridge with you only because you were on stopped on bridge/stopped your forward motion,were facing her,were not asking her confidently to keep coming forward with pressure from lead & making her think not room for the both of us,lol & not really knowing what you wanted.. as soon as you stepped back to give her space & ask her forward she came willingly up & over:wink:. You need to ditch that carrot stick ,walk her with more light contact & direction when you are teaching them new things:wink:. When she is were she is suppose to be she will be walking NEXT to you on loose lead & paying attention. You have to watch her for signs of distraction & correct then/now to get her focus back to you,not let her do her lookie loo to the other horses & noises in barn:neutral:.
I can see her being a very willing candidate to trying many different trail obstacles & do them with no big fuss


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Too SOON?? You are seriously confused. You can do it all day long, everyday, if you want.


Im not confused, Im just double checking. Nothing wrong with that.



natisha said:


> No, it's not too soon. You could ride her over it if you want to.
> You can do a lot with a bridge. Long way, short side, 2 legs on & side pass off, back off, whatever you want. Just read your horse & you'll get there but mix it up with something else so it remains fun for her & you too.


Thanks


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## Hoofpic

paintedpastures said:


> Watched some of your video. I can see that Fly has a very willing quiet demeanor & could see her walking up over that bridge with no hesitation given more solid direction. You have her following along on a loose lead giving her no sense of direction really from your body language or lead.Because of that she is not paying full attention to you, the one that is to be leader! but rather her attention is split between you vs her surroundings:icon_rolleyes:. You have to maintain her focus/attention to you. You need to confidently walk beside her have light contact with lead pointing her in direction you wish her to go pointing her forward onto bridge. If not room beside her on bridge either you be beside her just off bridge on ground but continue leading her forward up & over or if you go ahead on bridge she should follow you up with the light pressure asking her to move forward. I see she hesitated coming all the way up to share bridge with you only because you were on stopped on bridge/stopped your forward motion,were facing her,were not asking her confidently to keep coming forward with pressure from lead & making her think not room for the both of us,lol & not really knowing what you wanted.. as soon as you stepped back to give her space & ask her forward she came willingly up & over:wink:. You need to ditch that carrot stick ,walk her with more light contact & direction when you are teaching them new things:wink:. When she is were she is suppose to be she will be walking NEXT to you on loose lead & paying attention. You have to watch her for signs of distraction & correct then/now to get her focus back to you,not let her do her lookie loo to the other horses & noises in barn:neutral:.
> I can see her being a very willing candidate to trying many different trail obstacles & do them with no big fuss


I always lead my mare on a loose lead, to and from the field, everywhere. This was one of the first adjustments that my outside trainer had me make and it made sense. Before i used to lead my mare 10" from the shank and she didnt want me to do that anymore cause then im just pulling on Fly and making her feel like a criminal.

So are you saying when directing her over objects to have her on a light lead? How much slack in the lead from the snap are we talking about here?

I can lead her with more purpose and direction. I was going to ask what your way is to keep her attention on me and I think this would be it. LEad her with purpose and direction and her focus should stay on me.

I mentioned why I didnt correct my mare last night for when she was distracted. I will be the next time though and I usually do, do this. I usually just give a light and small, but sharp half second pull on the lead to get her focus back on me. It would also help if I had her rope halter on so I will be putting it on next time for this.


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## tinyliny

watched your video, you did fine. just fine.


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## anndankev

I think the bridge video is very good. 

You are so improved in the handling of the stick and string you should be proud of the vast improvement you've made. Great improvements with timing and handling of the line as well. Your mare is very comfortable at the end, walked off that bridge as if it was 'not the obstacle' (ie no big deal).

Likely I would have had her cross from the other end also, next progression would be with me standing on the other side of the bridge, her going both ways. ...

Good job, congratulations.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> >>>I always lead my mare on a loose lead, to and from the field, everywhere. This was one of the first adjustments that my outside trainer had me make and it made sense.
> 
> 
> >>>Before i used to lead my mare 10" from the shank and she didnt want me to do that anymore cause then im just pulling on Fly and making her feel like a criminal..


 one leading with a loose lead isn't the problem, it is in fact what you want. However, she still needs to be focused on you. Not attention wandering between you and everything else. If you stopped, all of the sudden, she should stop. If you speed up she should speed up, etc. All from paying attention to you, not cues, signals, sticks and strings (really throw that ****ed thing in a creek, its a gimmick).
Second, your horse didn't *feel* like a criminal. Your horse feels like a horse 24/7/365. *QUIT,* putting human feelings/emotions in this equation. Your horse is a horse, you are a human. neither of you looks at the world through the same lens. This is known as anthropomorphism, stop doing it. The sooner you do, the happier your horse, and you, will be.


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## Elana

You stand in her way.. on the bridge. That stick you have is not handy. A dressage whip used to guide and tap is much handier. 

I see her wanting to get up on the bridge and not going forward because you are in your way and she is respecting your space. 

This thread is* too much over thinking and not enough doing*. At one point that horse switches her tail.. and she appears a bit annoyed.. and I must say I do not blame her. Just walk the horse over the bridge with you off it and along side. Rinse and repeat in each direction. Then repeat, stopping her on the bridge, count to three, and then move off. One time in each direction. Then you are DONE. Move on to something else. 

Too much standing around. Too much letting the horse think and get bored. Too much thinking and not enough forward and doing. 

I read through more of this and I have to stop. I just do. Too much typing and talking and thinking. Not enough reading the horse and doing. Your horse deserves a medal for patience. Truly she does.


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## greentree

Why would you consider it "too soon"? Because you keep saying "someday you would like to revisit backing through the poles", which makes me think you are still on something someone told you before about only doing one thing at a time.....that "one thing at a time" was said for YOUR benefit, not Fly's.
As a beginner, having no clue HOW to train an animal, you needed to learn these things one at a time, to keep from confusing the horse. (IMO, you are still confusing her, trying to "train" her for things that do not really need "training", like walking over the pallets......) 
When you have the arena to yourself, set up as many of these obstacles as you want, do them frontwards, backwards, at a trot, at a lope, sideways, ALL in the same time. You are not going to get Fly tired......


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## Prairie

"its not a good idea to have any horse ground tied outside, in case they flee. "


Good grief, who told you that. When my deceased hubby and I had cattle and were working them, our horses often stood ground tied for 3 or 4 hours, only wandering about 3 foot in each direction to reach a little more grass. Even my mare, if she and I suddenly have an unplanned dismount, will circle back to me or go to where hubby and our gelding are standing. A horse who is well trained and respects the rider will not flee!


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## jenkat86

I just watched the video. Good job. 

I do agree with @greentree in that you didn't seem confident. I don't think you looked scared, but I do think you looked...unsure. Fly was very willing and your actions in the beginning prevented her from moving forward, literally and figuratively. I think if you would have gotten out of your own way she would have understood what you needed from her a little more clearly. I also agree with the other's that you are over thinking the simple things. Quit trying for perfection 

Fly really is a good horse with a great disposition. Good job.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> but its not a good idea to have any horse ground tied outside, in case they flee..


 Head/desk head/desk head/desk....And just what in wide world of sports, do you think the purpose of ground tying is?


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## DraftyAiresMum

greentree said:


> You are not going to get Fly tired......


If anything, you'll see a completely different, totally engaged side of her.

Even try stacking the pallets and asking her to "step up" onto them.


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## Prairie

Maybe it's just me, but I would not try stacking pallets to lead a horse over-----horses are accident prone enough without us adding something that could be unstable or not heavy duty enough to support the weight of a horse who may panic or spook. Better would be to lead the mare around the property looking for interesting obstacles to work her on to engage her mind and keep her focused on the handler. She already appeared to have been worked over a simple bridge so more repetition would just be boring to her.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Prairie said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I would not try stacking pallets to lead a horse over-----horses are accident prone enough without us adding something that could be unstable or not heavy duty enough to support the weight of a horse who may panic or spook. Better would be to lead the mare around the property looking for interesting obstacles to work her on to engage her mind and keep her focused on the handler. She already appeared to have been worked over a simple bridge so more repetition would just be boring to her.


Didn't say lead over. I said step up.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I just watched the video. Good job.
> 
> I do agree with @greentree in that you didn't seem confident. I don't think you looked scared, but I do think you looked...unsure. Fly was very willing and your actions in the beginning prevented her from moving forward, literally and figuratively. I think if you would have gotten out of your own way she would have understood what you needed from her a little more clearly. I also agree with the other's that you are over thinking the simple things. Quit trying for perfection
> 
> Fly really is a good horse with a great disposition. Good job.


I didnt move back right away when I was standing on the board because I wanted to ask for her first step first. This is what I did when I brought the mare over a matrress awhile ago. I asked for the first step and once she gave it to me, i moved back more and asked for more. Another reason why I stop while standing on the bridge is because I allow her to sniff and smell the bridge.

Sorry, I still dont get it how you dont think I was confident cause I was.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> watched your video, you did fine. just fine.


Thanks



anndankev said:


> I think the bridge video is very good.
> 
> You are so improved in the handling of the stick and string you should be proud of the vast improvement you've made. Great improvements with timing and handling of the line as well. Your mare is very comfortable at the end, walked off that bridge as if it was 'not the obstacle' (ie no big deal).
> 
> Likely I would have had her cross from the other end also, next progression would be with me standing on the other side of the bridge, her going both ways. ...
> 
> Good job, congratulations.


Thanks. Ive gotten comfortable with the stick but I still need to be quicker. For some things Im a lot quicker with my timing when using the stick.


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## Skyseternalangel

You need to make decisions that make sense to your goals. If you want her to walk over the bridge, standing infront of her doesn't allow her to do that.

If you want her to walk over the bridge, stopping and then causing her to stop so she can smell the bridge doesn't allow her to do that.

If you want her to walk over the bridge, cueing her to stop on the bridge doesn't allow her to do that.
*
If you want her to walk over the bridge, making room for her to walk forward will allow her to do that. *


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## tinyliny

I think it might be worthwhile to consider rewarding hoof pics tries with as much generosity as we advise him to offer his mare. Sure , there's a lot of room for improvement in even the one bit of work he videoed and showed us. There's all kinds of finesse to learn. but he's in training, and there was some good stuff, and that's all you expect of a learner; some good tries. We don't have to turn on the firehose to give him a drink.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> one leading with a loose lead isn't the problem, it is in fact what you want. However, she still needs to be focused on you. Not attention wandering between you and everything else. If you stopped, all of the sudden, she should stop. If you speed up she should speed up, etc. All from paying attention to you, not cues, signals, sticks and strings (really throw that ****ed thing in a creek, its a gimmick).
> Second, your horse didn't *feel* like a criminal. Your horse feels like a horse 24/7/365. *QUIT,* putting human feelings/emotions in this equation. Your horse is a horse, you are a human. neither of you looks at the world through the same lens. This is known as anthropomorphism, stop doing it. The sooner you do, the happier your horse, and you, will be.


I will be doing the bridge again this weekend and I will record it. Perhaps today if the arena is free, since my lesson got cancelled today. 

I will be on her for keeping her attention on me. 

I know in previous lessons with my outside trainer where we would bring in my mare into the arena and she was too focused on what was happening outside the arena, and not on me - she would make me do join up with her in the arena. Then her attention would be on me. So in other words we dont get started on what I want to do with her until she joins up with me and has her attention on me. 

I never said my mare feels like a criminal. I was told that if you lead horses with no to very little slack in the lead then it does. And what they mean by this is because youre holding the lead so close to the snap, you are always pulling them along and they have no room to lower their head, etc.

So when I work with her next time on the bridge and her attention isnt on me, ill make sure it is before starting. And if she gets distracted during it, I will correct her.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> "its not a good idea to have any horse ground tied outside, in case they flee. "
> 
> 
> Good grief, who told you that. When my deceased hubby and I had cattle and were working them, our horses often stood ground tied for 3 or 4 hours, only wandering about 3 foot in each direction to reach a little more grass. Even my mare, if she and I suddenly have an unplanned dismount, will circle back to me or go to where hubby and our gelding are standing. A horse who is well trained and respects the rider will not flee!


One of the trainers at the old barn told me this and said this is why if you ground tie outside, do it in the outside arena or something.


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## elle1959

tinyliny said:


> I think it might be worthwhile to consider rewarding hoof pics tries with as much generosity as we advise him to offer his mare. Sure , there's a lot of room for improvement in even the one bit of work he videoed and showed us. There's all kinds of finesse to learn. but he's in training, and there was some good stuff, and that's all you expect of a learner; some good tries. We don't have to turn on the firehose to give him a drink.


Yes, as a learner myself, I can appreciate where he is, and where he is headed with this. Many of the things that are easy for me now were hard in the beginning. Learning to ride is an intricate dance with many moving parts, and the pieces don't all fall into place at the same time for a beginner. I know that, in the very beginning, I had to give conscious thought to every single little thing I did. Thinking about the position of the inside rein vs. outside rein, inside leg, outside leg, leg too far forward or too far back, asking for speed, using my seat, my visual focus, whether I'm tugging on the horse's face or have too much slack in the reins. Then, with all that, I'm expected to notice everything the horse is doing so that I can respond instantaneously with corrections that are needed. 

Um, no. As a very new beginner, those things all needed to be blended together with practice. They didn't happen together for me but they came together over time (and are still coming together). 

I had two instructors in the beginning. One always focused on what I was doing wrong and the other always focused on what I was doing right. Guess which one I stuck with? Guess which one taught me how to ride and helped me to find the most joy in it? I don't have to tell you. You already know.


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## jenkat86

Today, I'd like to see you just lead her over the bridge. Just start leading her in the arena and pass over the bridge...like it's not even there. Don't hesitate, don't try to line her up, don't look to see if she's following you...just lead. 

Have you ever heard of the K.I.S.S. method?


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> One of the trainers at the old barn told me this and said this is why if you ground tie outside, do it in the outside arena or something.


Maybe instead of saying you must always never ground tie unless in a space that is enclosed... you take it as "You and your horse aren't ready to ground tie so try to limit when you do it only to enclosed spaces"


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> You need to make decisions that make sense to your goals. If you want her to walk over the bridge, standing infront of her doesn't allow her to do that.
> 
> If you want her to walk over the bridge, stopping and then causing her to stop so she can smell the bridge doesn't allow her to do that.
> 
> If you want her to walk over the bridge, cueing her to stop on the bridge doesn't allow her to do that.
> *
> If you want her to walk over the bridge, making room for her to walk forward will allow her to do that. *


The reason why I didnt stand on the other end of the bridge (on the dirt) is because I wanted to be able to put her back into place when she stepped to the side. 

When I got her on but told her to woah, that was because it was the first time I got her on it and my plan was to have her stand with all 4 feet on it, and then I would repeat but walk her over the bridge. I know this wasnt the best approach and I immediately realized it once she stepped off the bridge to the side.

I had her sniff the bridge before getting on because I feel this is an important step in being patient with them and letting them get comfortable with the object before asking for the first step. This is what I was taught in the past clinics I attended. When I walked that mare over the mattress and wood palletes, I did the same thing. I let her sniff the object and give her time, before asking for the first step from her.

I already know that I made mistakes, I will learn from them trust me.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> One of the trainers at the old barn told me this and said this is why if you ground tie outside, do it in the outside arena or something.


 well they were wrong, the purpose of ground tying, is to be able to get off and on your horse where there is nowhere to tie. Just dismount, drop a rein, and go about your business. The horse stays put, you get the job done, pick up the rein, get back on the horse. If you plan on doing any kind of riding outside an arena, you better have ground tying in your bag of tricks.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> One of the trainers at the old barn told me this and said this is why if you ground tie outside, do it in the outside arena or something.




This is where general knowledge comes in----how do you think cowboys tie their horses out on the range? There are no hitching posts or arenas!


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Today, I'd like to see you just lead her over the bridge. Just start leading her in the arena and pass over the bridge...like it's not even there. Don't hesitate, don't try to line her up, don't look to see if she's following you...just lead.
> 
> Have you ever heard of the K.I.S.S. method?


Yes Ive heard of K.I.S.S and I use it. And that is my plan for the next time, just to lead her over it with me on her side and with a purpose. 

But you have to understand why I didnt just lead her (with me on her side) the first time. I did the same with the tarp. It wouldnt have worked with the tarp because each time she would have just stepped off to the side anyways. I think letting them sniff the object is very key before asking them to get on. And when you ask them to get on, asking for one foot first is key before just walking over it as if its nothing.


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> I already know that I made mistakes, I will learn from them trust me.


You took my post the wrong way. I'm not criticizing your mistakes because you're learning and we all make them.

I am trying to show you how best to think about your goals and making choices to help your mare achieve them.

Say your goal is to back your mare over a pole. Before the pole is even involved, you need to help your mare learn to back on the leadrope softly and with little pressure. That starts out with learning yourself how much pressure she first needs to even begin to lean back. How you position yourself affects her backward movement (and same with forward, but in this example we are focusing on backward movement)

Then once she leans back to begin moving backwards, you'd then try to softly get her to shift backwards and then lift a leg... then you have her shift backwards and move a leg back... then two legs (or five if that is what she gives you in which you may need to tone down your cue strength) until she is happily backing.

Then you introduce the pole. You first walk over it, stopping seveal feet in front of it. Then you ask her to back then halt without going near the pole. Then you lead her around and ask her to go over the pole again (facing forwards, leading like normal) and stop a little less infront. Then you ask her to back... again not backing over the pole yet.

When she's good with that, and you feel she is ready, you can ask her to back over the pole. When she does it, MOVE ONTO something else.

All of this doesn't have to be done in ONE session either. It can be spread over multiple days, a few days, or a couple days. 

Your goal is to back her over a pole, but you don't have to start with that right away.


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## Skyseternalangel

I want to add that if you come back to work on backing over a pole, your goal may change like backing over it straighter.. and adjust your position and cues to make it happen first without the pole and then with the pole.

Do you see what I'm saying here?


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> But you have to understand why I didnt just lead her (with me on her side) the first time. I did the same with the tarp. It wouldnt have worked with the tarp because each time she would have just stepped off to the side anyways. I think letting them sniff the object is very key before asking them to get on. And when you ask them to get on, asking for one foot first is key before just walking over it as if its nothing.


Well if she learned from the tarp experience, then she shouldn't hesitate at the bridge and you won't have to worry about her doing anything other than following you. By allowing her to sniff and check out the object that then opens the window of allowing her to make the decision for herself, instead of her trusting you and following you.

Why is asking for one foot first key instead of just having them walk over it as if it's nothing?


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Maybe instead of saying you must always never ground tie unless in a space that is enclosed... you take it as "You and your horse aren't ready to ground tie so try to limit when you do it only to enclosed spaces"


Yes thats a much better way to put it. Sorry, my bad for wording it wrong. 

I always knew all along what ground tying was. Its so when you dont have anything to tie your horses to. 

But my mare isnt there yet. Meaning she is not 100% in ground tying. Shes a lot better and has come a long ways but still has room for improvement. This is what i meant to say.

So because of that, (and all the ground tying work that Ive done with her to date has been in the arena or in the barn isle), if I want to take things to the next level, Im best off ground tying her in either the roundpen or outdoor arena where there is grass in both. So it will emulate an outdoor environment, but I will still have a barrier to be safe.



6gun Kid said:


> well they were wrong, the purpose of ground tying, is to be able to get off and on your horse where there is nowhere to tie. Just dismount, drop a rein, and go about your business. The horse stays put, you get the job done, pick up the rein, get back on the horse. If you plan on doing any kind of riding outside an arena, you better have ground tying in your bag of tricks.


Yes true. See my above comment.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> You took my post the wrong way. I'm not criticizing your mistakes because you're learning and we all make them.
> 
> I am trying to show you how best to think about your goals and making choices to help your mare achieve them.
> 
> Say your goal is to back your mare over a pole. Before the pole is even involved, you need to help your mare learn to back on the leadrope softly and with little pressure. That starts out with learning yourself how much pressure she first needs to even begin to lean back. How you position yourself affects her backward movement (and same with forward, but in this example we are focusing on backward movement)
> 
> Then once she leans back to begin moving backwards, you'd then try to softly get her to shift backwards and then lift a leg... then you have her shift backwards and move a leg back... then two legs (or five if that is what she gives you in which you may need to tone down your cue strength) until she is happily backing.
> 
> Then you introduce the pole. You first walk over it, stopping seveal feet in front of it. Then you ask her to back then halt without going near the pole. Then you lead her around and ask her to go over the pole again (facing forwards, leading like normal) and stop a little less infront. Then you ask her to back... again not backing over the pole yet.
> 
> When she's good with that, and you feel she is ready, you can ask her to back over the pole. When she does it, MOVE ONTO something else.
> 
> All of this doesn't have to be done in ONE session either. It can be spread over multiple days, a few days, or a couple days.
> 
> Your goal is to back her over a pole, but you don't have to start with that right away.


Sorry for reading your last comment wrong. Thanks for clarifying. That makes a lot of sense. In general, is backing up a horse over a pole seen as a pretty big task?

Thats similar to when I backed her up through logs and L shape logs cause I would walk her through her first before backing her up into it.



Skyseternalangel said:


> I want to add that if you come back to work on backing over a pole, your goal may change like backing over it straighter.. and adjust your position and cues to make it happen first without the pole and then with the pole.
> 
> Do you see what I'm saying here?


Yes I see what you mean.


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## jenkat86

I've found it much easier to ground tie my mare outside. There's grass outside, which means her head is going to be glued to the ground. If I try ground tying her in an arena I often find her waiting at the door, or if the door is open, she's just outside it eating...grass!

We obviously need to work on that


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Sorry for reading your last comment wrong. Thanks for clarifying. That makes a lot of sense. In general, is backing up a horse over a pole seen as a pretty big task?


Well seeing as they can't see behind them, it requires a lot of trust of handler and coordination by horse.

The point is to prepare the horse so they feel equipped to handle anything. You do this in a thorough but logical way, catered to the horse.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, what is your ultimate goal to do with your mare? You've mentioned liberty work, but don't seem to understand that it is based on a subtle connection between you and the horse based on trust and a partnership. You talk about being a leader, but have confused leadership with micromanaging her. You won't even give the mare a chance to show what she knows since you think you have to control her every movement, and all you accomplish is getting in her way. 


An example, we rescued an abused mare who was headshy, fearful, and hard to catch whose only knowledge of humans was pain, harsh handling, and untrustworthy. After only 30 days of working with her, I took her on her first group trail ride. While she was really tense and unsure of what she was suppose to do, I still let her have her head and figure out how to get us safely around the obstacles. The first one was an old wooden bridge that many of the experience horses refused, she dropped her head and sniffed it, then carefully crossed it. At the river crossing other horses were falling into deep holes or outright refusing to enter the river. A man kindly offered to pony us across, but I decided to see what she would do----she calmly entered that raging river and safely got us to the other side. Why did she perform so well---because I trusted her instinct to survive and didn't try to micromanage her! As the ride went on, the tenseness left her body and she became soft and responsive to the cues, cues she'd probably not responded to for over 10 years. Give your horse the opportunity to respond correctly without overthinking the what ifs!


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## 6gun Kid

Prairie said:


> Give your horse the opportunity to respond correctly without overthinking the what ifs!


 This is what I mean about him getting out of his head


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## DraftyAiresMum

Prairie said:


> Give your horse the opportunity to respond correctly without overthinking the what ifs!


This is super important!!

We talk about Hoofpic accepting his mistakes so he can learn from them. The same applies to Fly. If you don't allow her to make a mistake, you can't show her the correct way to do what you're asking.

Again, think about it in human terms. 

Say you're teaching someone to read. You let them sound out the words, providing small corrections to mispronunciations and such. If they don't hear the wrong way to say or read something, they'll never understand the correct way.

The same applies to horses. LET her misbehave. LET her make missteps and mistakes. Then gently correct her and show her the right way to do what you're asking.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Well seeing as they can't see behind them, it requires a lot of trust of handler and coordination by horse.
> 
> The point is to prepare the horse so they feel equipped to handle anything. You do this in a thorough but logical way, catered to the horse.


So when I backed her up through logs and L shaped logs do you think by me first walking through through it, then taking her back to the start and turn her around and back her up into the logs was enough preparation?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, what is your ultimate goal to do with your mare? You've mentioned liberty work, but don't seem to understand that it is based on a subtle connection between you and the horse based on trust and a partnership. You talk about being a leader, but have confused leadership with micromanaging her. You won't even give the mare a chance to show what she knows since you think you have to control her every movement, and all you accomplish is getting in her way.
> 
> 
> An example, we rescued an abused mare who was headshy, fearful, and hard to catch whose only knowledge of humans was pain, harsh handling, and untrustworthy. After only 30 days of working with her, I took her on her first group trail ride. While she was really tense and unsure of what she was suppose to do, I still let her have her head and figure out how to get us safely around the obstacles. The first one was an old wooden bridge that many of the experience horses refused, she dropped her head and sniffed it, then carefully crossed it. At the river crossing other horses were falling into deep holes or outright refusing to enter the river. A man kindly offered to pony us across, but I decided to see what she would do----she calmly entered that raging river and safely got us to the other side. Why did she perform so well---because I trusted her instinct to survive and didn't try to micromanage her! As the ride went on, the tenseness left her body and she became soft and responsive to the cues, cues she'd probably not responded to for over 10 years. Give your horse the opportunity to respond correctly without overthinking the what ifs!


Thanks for the example. 

Well liberty and obstacles are my two favourite things. 

Would you say I was micro managing her in my video? Again, this is a habit and way of teaching that i am currently dropping from my mind from my outside trainer and the past trainer this past weekend.

Do keep in mind on why I was taught this from my outside trainer. She taught me to correct my mare step for step (for her taking steps that I dont ask for) to set boundaries for her. 

However, I do see this practice being okay in a non training way but not so much in a training way.

For instance...

If Im out somewhere with her and I tell her to stand and she takes a step to the side, forward, moves her HQ whatever. I immediately put her back. Do you think this is micro managing? I dont. Because im asking her to stand. If she takes a step then she is disobeying what I ask.

But as for getting her to step forward onto something like a bridge, but say she steps sideways. Im not saying that I disagree with you in that you shouldn't be putting her back to where she was. So if she takes a step sideways, you just leave her and dont put her back, just carry on. That is what Im getting from everyone here, is to not move her anywhere when she steps to the side but just carry on.

But you have to remember, I want to get her on that bridge on a certain side, so if she steps to the side of it. I will need to move her back. 

The past clinic that I went to last weekend, the trainer said that you do this because when you ask for a step forward and they step sideways or back, whatever, its teaching them that a step to the side or back is not what you asked for. So by correcting them and putting them back to where they came from, it has them figure out that until they do what is being ask, they are going to keep being put to where they were. And once they do the right thing, they get rewarded. You are asking them to move forward onto the bridge, not to the side or around it, then onto the bridge. 

Now mind you, this trainer did this all on a green horse who is scared of obstacles.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> So when I backed her up through logs and L shaped logs do you think by me first walking through through it, then taking her back to the start and turn her around and back her up into the logs was enough preparation?



There was no need for preparation, you have done the prep, this is the point, all you have to do now is do new things.

Example, my mare hurt herself by panicking unloading from a trailer, I figured that she didn't like the feeling of her hind legs going down a slope. So I walked her down the drive way, led her down into a ditch, then walked her out, then set to back down. She didn't want to do it first time, got a step and she came up, that was fine, she was quiet and mannerly about it, tried again she managed to get both feet on the slope and came back up, so just tried again and she backed on down......asked her to come up, and then sent her back while I stood on the road. This time she found out that grass came at nose level when she was stood in the ditch, so after that had no issue, could ask her up, and back her down without any issue.

Now that was huge for her, which is why I led her down and up to start with, but I didn't worry about her, didn't over correct, just carried on as if it was the easiest thing in the world, and she did it. 

Fly just needs to do whatever you ask and her reaction at the bridge says it all, just do it.....

you need to get a T Shirt made

JUST DO IT DON'T OVER THINK IT


----------



## tinyliny

Skyseternalangel said:


> *Well seeing as they can't see behind them, *it requires a lot of trust of handler and coordination by horse.
> 
> The point is to prepare the horse so they feel equipped to handle anything. You do this in a thorough but logical way, catered to the horse.



horses can see quit a bit of what's behind them. just not very clearly. one reason why blinders are used on driving hroses; to limit rear and side vision.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> If Im out somewhere with her and I tell her to stand and she takes a step to the side, forward, moves her HQ whatever. I immediately put her back. Do you think this is micro managing? I dont. Because im asking her to stand. If she takes a step then she is disobeying what I ask.
> 
> But as for getting her to step forward onto something like a bridge, but say she steps sideways. Im not saying that I disagree with you in that you shouldn't be putting her back to where she was. So if she takes a step sideways, you just leave her and dont put her back, just carry on. That is what Im getting from everyone here, is to not move her anywhere when she steps to the side but just carry on.
> 
> But you have to remember, I want to get her on that bridge on a certain side, so if she steps to the side of it. I will need to move her back.


You're thinking of it too black and white. You need to be more fluid. If she steps off to the side, yes, bring her back to the side you want her to approach it from, but you don't have to put her back in the exact same spot. Instead of trying to direct her from a stand still (which, let's be honest, you don't have the skills to do), walk her around in a circle and reposition her to approach how you want her to. THAT is setting her up for success. 

Right now, trying to maneuver her from a distance and get her back where she should be obviously isn't working very well. You have to walk before you run. I get that you want to emulate the trainers you've seen, but remember that they have decades of experience handling horses, so they have a well-developed sense of timing and feel. You don't yet.


----------



## anndankev

I triple like the post by @Golden Horse (this is my first attempt at 'mentioning' or 'tagging' someone. Hope I did it right.). LOL

One barn I was at had a big, wide, deep hole next to the blacktop driveway. I suppose from all the trucks and trailers running off the side there, along with repeated deep mud puddles.

Anyway, I very often would back horses down over that edge. And also turn them around and back them up the step up back onto the driveway. Just as an everyday matter whenever I led a horse nearby. It was a great exercise for trailer unloading.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> There was no need for preparation, you have done the prep, this is the point, all you have to do now is do new things.
> 
> Example, my mare hurt herself by panicking unloading from a trailer, I figured that she didn't like the feeling of her hind legs going down a slope. So I walked her down the drive way, led her down into a ditch, then walked her out, then set to back down. She didn't want to do it first time, got a step and she came up, that was fine, she was quiet and mannerly about it, tried again she managed to get both feet on the slope and came back up, so just tried again and she backed on down......asked her to come up, and then sent her back while I stood on the road. This time she found out that grass came at nose level when she was stood in the ditch, so after that had no issue, could ask her up, and back her down without any issue.
> 
> Now that was huge for her, which is why I led her down and up to start with, but I didn't worry about her, didn't over correct, just carried on as if it was the easiest thing in the world, and she did it.
> 
> Fly just needs to do whatever you ask and her reaction at the bridge says it all, just do it.....
> 
> you need to get a T Shirt made
> 
> JUST DO IT DON'T OVER THINK IT


Thanks for the example, very clear and concise. You are right, just do it. 

So no need to let Fly sniff familiar objects? WHat if I introduce a new one that shes never seen before?


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> So no need to let Fly sniff familiar objects? WHat if I introduce a new one that shes never seen before?


You're still too hung up on "objects." You are making her rely on herself instead of you any time you do these introductions. As long as YOU are her LEADER and she is FOLLOWING you and showing you RESPECT...she will go where you lead her to go. 

It shouldn't matter if it's a flag, beach ball, car, dinosaur or the purple people eater...if you lead her she will follow.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You're thinking of it too black and white. You need to be more fluid. If she steps off to the side, yes, bring her back to the side you want her to approach it from, but you don't have to put her back in the exact same spot. Instead of trying to direct her from a stand still (which, let's be honest, you don't have the skills to do), walk her around in a circle and reposition her to approach how you want her to. THAT is setting her up for success.


Ok. 

Yes I have gotten rid of the logic of having to put Fly back to exactly where she was. I was never a fan of this since my outside trainer taught me because I had a good feeling that it was micro managing.

If she steps to the side, I can reposition her back to where I want her to be by how I prefer to do it (and this is why you saw it in my video), where I would get off the bridge and lead and circle her back to where I want her to be. 

I know its bad becuse Im moving my feet and I should be keeping my feet still but like you said I dont have the ability to reposition her from a stand still. This is what my outside trainer was teaching me on though.



> Right now, trying to maneuver her from a distance and get her back where she should be obviously isn't working very well. You have to walk before you run. I get that you want to emulate the trainers you've seen, but remember that they have decades of experience handling horses, so they have a well-developed sense of timing and feel. You don't yet.


True. I eventually would like to be able to maneuver Fly by her feet individually from me keeping still but im not there yet. This is what my outside trainer was teaching me to do as she said its absolutely critical for you to keep your feet still. She said one of the worst habits I have is not keeping my feet still when asking my mare to move. She kept saying "the one who moves who's feet is the leader"..."Keep your feet still!" Even if I took half a step, she would tell me to keep my feet still.

Do you think its too advanced for me? I know exactly what you mean by starting with baby steps and working your way up. Do you think it was a mistake from my outside trainer trying to teach me this right off the bat so soon?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> So no need to let Fly sniff familiar objects? WHat if I introduce a new one that shes never seen before?


The only time I let my gelding investigate an object is if he's already looky and acting like it's a big deal. Then I tell him to "show me what it is" and let him investigate it. 

If you go on my journal thread, there's a video on the last page of my best friend riding my gelding a couple of years ago. In the video, he gets looky at a farm implement that is used as decoration next to the arena at my barn. Between about 0:42 and 1:20, she lets him investigate it (after I direct her to have him show her what it is), then they move on. The *only* reason he's allowed to investigate it is because he had already noticed it and thought it was scary. If we had been walking by it and he had barely glanced at it, there'd be no need to have him investigate it. 

So, gauge Fly's reaction to a new object. If she's looky, she can investigate it until it's not a big deal anymore. If she doesn't care about it in the first place, there's no reason to make it a "big deal" by making her investigate it.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Do you think its too advanced for me? I know exactly what you mean by starting with baby steps and working your way up. Do you think it was a mistake from my outside trainer trying to teach me this right off the bat so soon?


I do think she was expecting WAY too much from you too soon. 

I've owned my gelding for five years and have done extensive groundwork with him and with my old gelding (for the almost two years I had him). Yes, there are some things I can get my gelding to do without moving my feet. However, there are some things you do where you have to move your feet. I used to be able to get my gelding to step over just by taking a step toward him and saying "Step." I say "used to" because I haven't really worked with him that much in quite a while. It's handy for when my hands are full with a saddle or something else and I don't have the hand or finger available to poke him and say "Over" or "Step" like I normally do.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Remember when I said this?


6gun Kid said:


> This is the most ridiculous statement in a thread full of ridiculous statements..


 *I was wrong I think this is!*


Hoofpic said:


> . She kept saying "the one who moves who's feet is the leader"..."Keep your feet still!" Even if I took half a step, she would tell me to keep my feet still.
> 
> Do you think its too advanced for me?


 Yes, any refined type movement is too advanced for you right now. Just get the basics, man. Then clean it up.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

6gun Kid said:


> Yes, any refined type movement is too advanced for you right now. Just get the basics, man. Then clean it up.


If you're musically-inclined...

You don't start out playing Flight of the Bumblebee at 200 BPM (beats per minute). You start out at less than 60 BPM and get the technique, fingers, rhythms, and notes down. THEN you add the speed..._gradually_.

Right now, you're learning your scales and fingerings. The hows and the whys and the feel of the keys. Once you get those down, you can move on to more complex songs and pieces. 

What your outside training was trying to have you do was play Solfeggietto at speed without first teaching you proper technique or fingerings or even the notes.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> The only time I let my gelding investigate an object is if he's already looky and acting like it's a big deal. Then I tell him to "show me what it is" and let him investigate it.
> 
> If you go on my journal thread, there's a video on the last page of my best friend riding my gelding a couple of years ago. In the video, he gets looky at a farm implement that is used as decoration next to the arena at my barn. Between about 0:42 and 1:20, she lets him investigate it (after I direct her to have him show her what it is), then they move on. The *only* reason he's allowed to investigate it is because he had already noticed it and thought it was scary. If we had been walking by it and he had barely glanced at it, there'd be no need to have him investigate it.
> 
> So, gauge Fly's reaction to a new object. If she's looky, she can investigate it until it's not a big deal anymore. If she doesn't care about it in the first place, there's no reason to make it a "big deal" by making her investigate it.


Thanks,ill check out your thread. 

Flys reaction to the bridge was she was snorting with her head down.

What do you think of my outside trainers method of (when we wprked with the ball), i would roll the ball all around her and roll it right up to her barrel on both sides and have it touch her?

Fly is ok with the ball touching her left side but not her right (her weak side).


----------



## Skyseternalangel

tinyliny said:


> horses can see quit a bit of what's behind them. just not very clearly. one reason why blinders are used on driving hroses; to limit rear and side vision.


I don't see your point in correcting me. Backing up still takes trust in the handler and coordination. Once a horse has learned to back up confidently they can handle just about backing into or over anything.

Just because I forgot the words"very well" you're going to jump on reply? Seriously?

Point is it is harder than walking forward over an object.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks,ill check out your thread.
> 
> Flys reaction to the bridge was she was snorting with her head down.
> 
> What do you think of my outside trainers method of (when we wprked with the ball), i would roll the ball all around her and roll it right up to her barrel on both sides and have it touch her?
> 
> Fly is ok with the ball touching her left side but not her right (her weak side).


I've never used a ball with my horse and don't see a point to. :shrug:


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I do think she was expecting WAY too much from you too soon.
> 
> I've owned my gelding for five years and have done extensive groundwork with him and with my old gelding (for the almost two years I had him). Yes, there are some things I can get my gelding to do without moving my feet. However, there are some things you do where you have to move your feet. I used to be able to get my gelding to step over just by taking a step toward him and saying "Step." I say "used to" because I haven't really worked with him that much in quite a while. It's handy for when my hands are full with a saddle or something else and I don't have the hand or finger available to poke him and say "Over" or "Step" like I normally do.


And thats why it was not a wise idea to learn from a trainer who has such high expectations, and of course her being a Parelli trainer didnt help either.

I agree with you that sometimes you need to move your feet.


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## 6gun Kid

@DraftyAiresMum excellent comparison.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Remember when I said this?
> 
> *I was wrong I think this is!*


Sorry, I dont recall this. Was this about the ground tying?



> Yes, any refined type movement is too advanced for you right now. Just get the basics, man. Then clean it up.


Ok ill do that. If i need to move my feet to get the job done ill do just that.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I've never used a ball with my horse and don't see a point to. :shrug:


Can I ask why you dont think the ball is a fun toy in the arena?

FYI, this is what we did with Fly.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I meant I don't see a need to desensitize them to it. Put one in the arena or round pen with them and let them play with it. They'll desensitize themselves to it.


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## gypsygirl

I have used a bag, tarp, and ball with young horses to teach them how to react when scared. They can't really do that by them self, because you need to be able to move the object toward them with out them losing it.


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## 6gun Kid

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I meant I don't see a need to desensitize them to it. Put one in the arena or round pen with them and let them play with it. They'll desensitize themselves to it.


I've had horses that loved them, but most were meh, about it.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

gypsygirl said:


> I have used a bag, tarp, and ball with young horses to teach them how to react when scared. They can't really do that by them self, because you need to be able to move the object toward them with out them losing it.


If they investigate it themselves, then you work with them on it, they already know from investigating/playing with it themselves that it's not scary. ;-)

Not saying it would work with a bag or a tarp, but he asked specifically about a ball.


----------



## 6gun Kid

6gun Kid said:


> This is the most ridiculous statement in a thread full of ridiculous statements. Whatever respect I might have had for this so called "trainer" just evaporated. Again, I am going to say ditch her before she gets you hurt.....or dead.


No it was about this nonsense. The more you let out about this girl, the more I am glad you walked away undamaged!


----------



## Hoofpic

gypsygirl said:


> I have used a bag, tarp, and ball with young horses to teach them how to react when scared. They can't really do that by them self, because you need to be able to move the object toward them with out them losing it.


Or first slowly move the object away from them and have them follow it.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> No it was about this nonsense. The more you let out about this girl, the more I am glad you walked away undamaged!


I am walking away from what the outside trainer taught me but not for everything. For instance, keeping my feet still and making sure my mares feet go back in the exact same spot will be two things i get rid of. Like you all have said, the trainer has expected too much out of me, far too soon. So I need to stick with basics right now, what works and get those down pat, then build from there.

She did teach me a lot in how to keep boundaries with my mare and how to be firm but light with her. Afterall she did help me get my mares respect again and if it wasnt for her, i wouldnt be riding my mare today. So she does deserve a ton of credit for that.


----------



## tinyliny

Skyseternalangel said:


> I don't see your point in correcting me. Backing up still takes trust in the handler and coordination. Once a horse has learned to back up confidently they can handle just about backing into or over anything.
> 
> Just because I forgot the words"very well" you're going to jump on reply? Seriously?
> 
> Point is it is harder than walking forward over an object.



Sorry, not my intention to upset you. just thought that the OP already has a lot of misconceptions about horses, and what I posted was a simple correction to a fact on their vision abilities. not a personal attack.


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## Hoofpic

Because I no longer have a trainer by my side, I have gone back to watching Warwick Schillers videos again for my horsemanship.

Everyone should watch this video. I think its a very good piece of advice from Warwick.


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## Prairie

As for letting a horse investigate a familiar object, why? How are you going to advance her training if you spend all your time letting her sniff object she knows? 


I'm really confused by this not moving your feet since groundwork is all about using your body to cue the horse so she does what you want. When I'm working our mare at Liberty, I'm moving just as much, if not more, than she is just to be in the correct position to send her where I want her at the desired gait or to have her follow me over obstacles. If I never moved my feet, she'd be off in la-la land wondering why I haven't opened the gate to the pasture!


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## gypsygirl

I've heard the idea of not moving your feet before. It's a technique used to keep newbies from begging their horse to do something. The idea is that whoever moves their feet first loses. I know I'm not explaining it great, but it does make sense to tell newbies, especially when lunging or similar ground work.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> As for letting a horse investigate a familiar object, why? How are you going to advance her training if you spend all your time letting her sniff object she knows?


I wouldnt let her on a familiar object. Now ill give you an example. When I first introduced my mare to the tarp, we did it in the arena. She wasnt okay with it at first, so I let her sniff it.

A month later or so, i decided I would bring that tarp outside and get her on it. Well, same thing, even though its the same obstacle, its in a different environment so she acts as if its completely new to her.

Just like when i first started brushing and grooming her outside in the field. She acted like it was new to her, even though shes had it done to her a thousand times. Its just a new setting.

I had a real interesting conversation about this same thing (about how horses react differently to familiar happenings but in different places) a couple months ago. He would tell me how, for instance the horses get used to the goats making noises every morning from their pen. THe horses know where the goats pen is and where the sounds come from. Well, when the BO lets goats out to free roam on barn property and the goats will make noises from other areas of the barn. The horses will react as if these goats and their sounds are complete strangers to them. And that is because horses have such an amazing memory in being able to remember exactly where something occured. 

Its no different when the parked trailer on the barn all of a sudden one day got parked to a different spot on the barn. The horses pick up on it from a mile away leading up to it and see it as a new object, even though its the same object all along, just in a different spot. But horses are so good in remembering this stuff.



> I'm really confused by this not moving your feet since groundwork is all about using your body to cue the horse so she does what you want. When I'm working our mare at Liberty, I'm moving just as much, if not more, than she is just to be in the correct position to send her where I want her at the desired gait or to have her follow me over obstacles. If I never moved my feet, she'd be off in la-la land wondering why I haven't opened the gate to the pasture!


You see thats the thing that annoyed me the most about the outside trainer. I know AND knew (and still is) that its all about body language. So just because I want to move my feet when I lunge my mare, doesnt mean that Im doing it wrong. Its just my preference! I feel that I can do a better job in driving my energy when I move my feet as opposed to planting the heal of my inner foot into the ground and using the other to pivot off it. 

So when I first lunged my mare and she wanted to see. Guess what I was doing? I was moving my feet. I was walking in little tiny circles, maybe 3ft diameter and she freaked out, "keep your feet still!" I spun on a dime and I was still not keeping my feet still for her.

Listen, out of all the trainers ive worked with and learn from, half lunge a horse by not moving thier feet forward at all. The other half lunge a horse and move their feet in little circles. IMO, it doesnt make it wrong if someone moves thier feet because they are at the end of the day accomplishing the same results and thats all that matters. 

Watch Klaus Hempfling, his name was introduced to me about 2 months ago from a trainer. Yes this is from the trainer who I was going to use before I hired my outside trainer and just lives down the road from my barn and yes she is the same trainer who taught me all about the "reset button" which IMO has been one of my most valuable pieces of advice given to me to date.

You see how he moves a horses feet? Through his energy and energy comes in your posture but it also comes when you walk. HIs videos really opened my eyes in terms of realizing how you can create more energy from within you simply by moving your own feet.

So my outside trainer IMO is preaching far too much on having to keep your feet still and also preaching far too much on using the carrot stick.

If you havent heard about this guy, well he is worth watching his videos.

When I went to meet and greet that first trainer (who told me about this guy) at her house and ended up having dinner at her house and we chatted all night, she showed me this video, made me watch it and it really opened my eyes.


----------



## Prairie

From post 686, "So no need to let Fly sniff familiar objects? " Yes there is no need for her to sniff familiar objects. Horses are programmed to watch for changes in their world since that change may just be a predator about to pounce on them. It's not rocket science about why horses notice that something has been moved.


IMO, you wasted time and money with that outside trainer and need to forget everything she told you. At this point you really don't have the relationship you claim with your mare---she knows you are her owner, but doesn't respect you as a fair leader. If she did, she'd not be spooky or looky at objects you tell her are safe.


I'm not a fan of someone physically chasing the horse.......a good trainer can accomplish the same thing by where they look and how they move their body.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic,

KVh (klaus von hempfling, right?) is an interesting trainer. He doesn't work by a 'system' so much as by dialogueing with the horse by 'feel', so he may be a better mentor to observe . it takes quite awhile to have that level of feel and timing, though. 


I only watched the first 10 minutes or so. he is doing basically, what most NH trainers (and just plain trainers) do, and that is MAKING HIMSELF IMPORTANT to the horse. 
that lady was not important. Klaus was. what is the difference? what do YOU, Hoofpic, see as the difference between those two humans? beyond the age/gender thing.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> Hoofpic,
> 
> KVh (klaus von hempfling, right?) is an interesting trainer. He doesn't work by a 'system' so much as by dialogueing with the horse by 'feel', so he may be a better mentor to observe . it takes quite awhile to have that level of feel and timing, though.
> 
> 
> I only watched the first 10 minutes or so. he is doing basically, what most NH trainers (and just plain trainers) do, and that is MAKING HIMSELF IMPORTANT to the horse.
> that lady was not important. Klaus was. what is the difference? what do YOU, Hoofpic, see as the difference between those two humans? beyond the age/gender thing.


Yes Klaus Hempfling

You nailed it, he makes himself important to the horse as soon as he meets up with the horse in the arena
And perhaps this is something i ought to start doing with my mare. If she is not focused on me as soon as we enter the arena, i get her focused on me (i would do join up). Establish myself the second we enter the arena and she ought to pay attn to me. My outside trainer ALWAYS had me do this when we entered the arena. Get my mares attn on me. And how did we do it? Join up.


The difference between Klaus and my outside trainer is that Klaus is all body language and his energy whereas my outside trainer does that but also relies on her carrot stick. My outside trainer would never lunge a horse like that, because Klaus moved his feet, she would claim he did it wrong.

Im heading to the barn right now and im going to pull out the bridge again and do the exact same thing i did from tues, except there will be change in me.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tinylily, the difference that I saw between that lady in that video and Klaus is that Klaus expressed his body language and established his place in the herd of two as soon as he entered that arena.

The lady did not.

Am i right here?


----------



## palogal

Wow..what a thread. All I can say from the 70is pages is you're lucky to be alive with all the fools you have tried to follow. My advise get a REAL trainer that DOES something. If you're a reiner, get a reiner, if you're a pleasure rider, get a pleasure trainer. Drop all this nonsense and gimmicks before you get yourself killed and for God's sake don't try and do it by videos. I make a lot of money fixing horses that have been put through a "program" like this. 

Find a real trainer. Be safe.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling is a professional trainer. It is not only how he moves but where he moves and when; It goes well beyond the feet or attitude into (as others have pointed out) feel and timing and, IMO his is better than most other professional trainers on the ground. It takes a lot of time to develop.

If you read his books it is not about putting on a façade for the horse, try as you might, the horse will see right through that. 

According to Klaus, you must be who you are and be as honest with the horse as the horse is with you or you will meet with distrust because the horse will know you are being deceptive. 

I think it is great that you aspire to be able to deal effectively with a horse like KFH, but please understand that the only attitude that counts is the honest reflection of what you have inside. I think Fly has a very forgiving nature and that is good. What you are looking for will come with time and experience little by little and not by emulating anyone but you.


----------



## EliRose

tinyliny said:


> Hoofpic,
> 
> KVh (klaus von hempfling, right?) is an interesting trainer. He doesn't work by a 'system' so much as by dialogueing with the horse by 'feel', so he may be a better mentor to observe . it takes quite awhile to have that level of feel and timing, though.
> 
> 
> I only watched the first 10 minutes or so. he is doing basically, what most NH trainers (and just plain trainers) do, and that is MAKING HIMSELF IMPORTANT to the horse.
> that lady was not important. Klaus was. what is the difference? what do YOU, Hoofpic, see as the difference between those two humans? beyond the age/gender thing.


As far as I can tell, the woman wasn't really asking the horse to do much either. Obviously he was pushy, but it would have been more interesting to see HER lunge the horse.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Tinylily, the difference that I saw between that lady in that video and Klaus is that Klaus expressed his body language and established his place in the herd of two as soon as he entered that arena.
> 
> The lady did not.
> 
> Am i right here?



yes, in a sense. I was more curious to see what differences , specificly, you saw between how they moved, what they did. you have 'new' eyes, so will see things more as they are, instead of as they should be.

Klaus uses a lot of differences in how tall he stands, and how much or how little he lifts his chest out, how fast he moves. but, he is always asking the hrose to be looking right at him. he has an expectation when he works with horses, the lady moves as if she is lost, or far away from the horse, who is very far away from her (mentally)


----------



## Hoofpic

Tonight went much better, i was pleased. A lot smoother and i felt like a different person.

I did eventually get her to walk over the bridge without stopping but i had to be next to her and walk on the dirt. I tried walking right in front and she would go around. But you will see what i mean. I kept at it, i was persistant and walked with purpose and she walked over the brudge as if it was nothing.

I also set the tarp up.

She wasnt distracted at all tonight, nothing like tues night and i wonder if how i was constantly walking and trying to direct hrer had anything to do with it

Once we entered the arena, we did join up. I let her loose and she was distracted wanting to sniff around so i made her yield her hind end to me and join up.

Cant wait to show it. I feel tonight was a big improvement.


----------



## tinyliny

you know, folks can give all kinds of advice, and you can watch all kinds of videos, but nothing beats the feeling when you discover things on your own.


----------



## paintedpastures

Hoofpic said:


> I always lead my mare on a loose lead, to and from the field, everywhere. This was one of the first adjustments that my outside trainer had me make and it made sense. Before i used to lead my mare 10" from the shank and she didnt want me to do that anymore cause then im just pulling on Fly and making her feel like a criminal.
> 
> So are you saying when directing her over objects to have her on a light lead? How much slack in the lead from the snap are we talking about here?
> 
> I can lead her with more purpose and direction. I was going to ask what your way is to keep her attention on me and I think this would be it. LEad her with purpose and direction and her focus should stay on me.
> 
> I mentioned why I didnt correct my mare last night for when she was distracted. I will be the next time though and I usually do, do this. I usually just give a light and small, but sharp half second pull on the lead to get her focus back on me. It would also help if I had her rope halter on so I will be putting it on next time for this.



I am coming from having horses working in hand & showmanship. You have to give the horse proper direction utilizing the lead & your body language. It keeps horse focused on you & tells more clearly what you are asking. Hard to have that control of them with too much lead:icon_rolleyes: Know my SMS horse now could just shadow me she knows her cues from my voice & body language,they are like your dance partner. She knows when we are working & has to pay attention vs when we are just chillin . Watch some in hand trail videos you will see how they lead & are focused on handler:wink:. you have to redirect her attention back to you if she isn't focused, yes the pull pressure on the lead like you described is what you need to be doing,but be consistent in asking for her attention.:wink: 

This girl has a couple videos,this is most basic & you can see what I mean about how to hold shank & giving direction with the light contact from the lead


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> you know, folks can give all kinds of advice, and you can watch all kinds of videos, but nothing beats the feeling when you discover things on your own.


Yip and I saw it tonight. I couldnt just lead, walk onto the bridge and have her follow right behind me so i went back one step and lead her with me on the floor. Eventually i was able to lead her on with no stopping once my mare approached the bridge.

The next time i work on it, hopefully then i can walk in front of her and have her right behind me following. The bridge is too narrow to have both of us get on at the same time.

Could i have done it tonight? Perhaps but i remembered, you dont build a mountain in one day and she already showed big improvement from last time, so i wanted to end things on a good note. I didnt want to drag on the lesson either.

Hopefully you guys are happier with what you will see. Was i perfect? No. Did i make mistakes? Yes. But it was a big improvement.


----------



## Hoofpic

Sorry a bit OT. Perhaos its none of my biz but a fellow boarder friend who I talk to all the time reached out to me tonight.

I dont know what to tell her. Tonight she was in tears. She was struggling to get her colt under control. I was watching cause I was in the barn and I heard screaming. She haltered him, was trying to lead him out of the field but he was fussing cause he wanted to stay with his mates so he was dancing all over her. She kept telling him to back up but he wouldnt.

So when she opened the gate, he lunged forward for grass while she was trying to control him screaming at him but he kept lunging forward for grass. So she justlet him eat grass while she got the gate shut. 

She was wanting him to go back but he wouldnt go. So she kept trying but then gave up and just hand grazed him (she hand grazes him everyday).

Unfortunately it was just me and her there and the BO had already gone inside his house for the night. But it was chaos.

Then after she finished hand grazing her colt, she couldnt get his head up no matter what she tried. She was pulling on the rope and yelling at him but he kept ignoring her.

Eventually she got his head up but as she would walk him back to the gate, he would dive for grass again. She tried to get him to stop eating but she couldnt so she just let him eat some more. Then she had to pull so hard to get his head back up. Eventually she got him back in the field but she was so stressed out after.

A few weeks ago she fell when she was putting him back in his field. He took off like a rocket before he was unhaltered and sent her flying landing on her back. BO saw this and was concerned. Ive talked to her about it and she said she might have put out her back. I told her to see a chiro.

Its just that one time where he jumped out of a stall not once but twice. She used to put him in a stall to feed him his grain but she stopped after he jumped and escaped twice. He easily could have got hurt to hurt another horse
This was with other horses around and the BO told her to not stall him anymore cause he doesnt want him jumpin out of stalls all the time

A few weeks later he jumped out of the trailer window once when she tried to trailer him. She got him in but then he took off out of the side window. Mind you i know he just turned two, but its amazing what he can squeeze through.

So i was talking to her tonight and said she doesnt know what to do anymore. What would you say?


----------



## ManicMini

You tell the owner to find a trainer before the horse hurts itself, an innocent bystander or its owner again!


----------



## Hoofpic

ManicMini said:


> You tell the owner to find a trainer before the horse hurts itself, an innocent bystander or its owner again!


She has a trainer but she cant come out to the barn until the winter and no more than once every couple weeks because she is working a full time job right now, plus she trains her stud and in the winter she gets 4 months off work. And my friend said she can't afford more than two lessons a month. She is planning on having her out this winter to break him in because she wants to ride him this winter.


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## Rainaisabelle

Not much more you can do.


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## Hoofpic

I have a dumb question.

Im sure some of you have been accidentally bumped by your horses nose, muzzle, head on your head right?

If you see your horse move their head and its getting clcose to yours. Do YOU move your head to avoid getting hit? Or do you stay planted and stick your elbow out or something?

Reason I ask is because Ive seen this happen every now and then with others and from what I see, they move their head to avoid contact. But if you move, doesnt that say that you arent the leader since the one who moves who's feet is the leader. Though mind you, I'm talking about horses who do this accidentally and not intentionally to bump into you. And it happens so fast and out of nowhere that you have a split hair of a second to react.

Ive had it happen to me before as well and I have moved my head to avoid being hit. But it makes me wonder if sticking out your elbow would be the better thing to do. Stick your elbow out last second and if your horse hits it hard, its their problem right?


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Not much more you can do.


I agree.


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## Rainaisabelle

To answer it depends to me if its deliberate, I usually put my elbow out or catch him before he even gets that close. In saying that he shouldn't be that close that he can smack me with his head. Roys head is about the size of a 3yr old child he could easily smack my skull or break my nose.


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## greentree

A


Hoofpic said:


> She has a trainer but she cant come out to the barn until the winter and no more than once every couple weeks because she is working a full time job right now, plus she trains her stud and in the winter she gets 4 months off work. And my friend said she can't afford more than two lessons a month. She is planning on having her out this winter to break him in because she wants to ride him this winter.


Then she does NOT have a trainer.......she needs to send that colt OFF to a trainer. Only a fool would break a horse to ride without being able to lead it. Even in CA, winter is a good ways off. She needs a trainer yesterday.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic;9051434
Hopefully you guys are happier with what you will see. Was i perfect? No. Did i make mistakes? Yes. But it was a big improvement.[/QUOTE said:


> This right here, good job, dude. Even your typing seems more relaxed.
> 
> 
> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then after she finished hand grazing her colt, she couldnt get his head up no matter what she tried. She was pulling on the rope and yelling at him but he kept ignoring her
> So i was talking to her tonight and said she doesnt know what to do anymore. What would you say?
> 
> 
> 
> She needs to send this horse to trainer quick, fast, and in a hurry. She is going to get hurt bad. This horse has no respect for her at all!
> 
> 
> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a dumb question.
> 
> Im sure some of you have been accidentally bumped by your horses nose, muzzle, head on your head right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not a dumb question at all, I have a lippy gelding and every so often he needs to be reintroduced to Mr. elbow
> 
> 
> greentree said:
> 
> 
> 
> A
> 
> Then she does NOT have a trainer.......she needs to send that colt OFF to a trainer. Only a fool would break a horse to ride without being able to lead it. Even in CA, winter is a good ways off. She needs a trainer yesterday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly right, this horse needs to be n full time training for at least 30 days, if she cant afford that, she cant afford to own a horse.
Click to expand...


----------



## Prairie

Agree that the girl needs to send that horse off to a trainer and then take lessons from that trainer so she knows how to handle and correct the horse so that training is not undone.


For the horse's head bumping into yours, why is the handler standing that close to the horse without making sure the horse is focused on him? If the horse has intentionally invaded my space, he'd be quickly backed out of it with no question that he made the wrong move. If it was accidental, such as I moved and a youngster didn't move fast enough to be out of "my space", we'd repeat this until he knew that he had to move away unless I invited him into my space.


Why are you wanting to lead your mare standing directly in front of her? That's a good way to get run over if she spooks forward since you don't have an eye on her so you can move out of the way. Also, due to the location of the horse's eyes on her head, there is a distance in front of her where her vision may not see you (memory fails me, but I think it's 3-4 feet in front of the horse so correct me if I'm wrong, please).


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## gypsygirl

The other day my gelding kid cracked my head so hard I had to sit down. It was not his fault though. I bent down to pick something up and then stood up and turned at the same time. Didn't realize he was bending down to sniff me !


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## greentree

As for a horse hitting you with its head.....
That horse can twitch a single muscle to get rid of a fly....that horse knows exactly where I am. It shall not whack me with its body parts. Accidents MAY happen, but there WILL be a stern reminder, so they are certain that they need to watch out for ME.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> To answer it depends to me if its deliberate, I usually put my elbow out or catch him before he even gets that close. In saying that he shouldn't be that close that he can smack me with his head. Roys head is about the size of a 3yr old child he could easily smack my skull or break my nose.


Non deliberate.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> A
> 
> Then she does NOT have a trainer.......she needs to send that colt OFF to a trainer. Only a fool would break a horse to ride without being able to lead it. Even in CA, winter is a good ways off. She needs a trainer yesterday.


And this is why the BO is concerned. Plus she wants to break him in with a bitless bridle. She wont be using a bit. BO has kept telling her its a bad idea but she swears that her colt wont take a bit well. Hes a wildie so im sure he will be fine.


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## DraftyAiresMum

A non-deliberate whack gets a poke in the nose and a "Don't be stupid, stupid!" Usually that's all the reminder that is needed. If I see it coming, I'll get out of the way, mainly because my gelding's head weighs more than a small child and is longer than my torso. 

As for the chick with the colt...

My take is that she needs to sell (or give away) that colt before she gets hurt and he gets any more dangerous. Then she needs to take lessons from a REAL trainer on how to handle a horse (I say REAL because the trainer she has right now just moonlights as a trainer...she needs someone who can and will be there consistently). 

She sounds A LOT like the girl who owned the horse that threw me and fractured my ankle. Had zero clue what she was doing and had no business owning horses, let alone a rescue mare with no known history and a greener-than-grass 4yo mare (her 4yo makes your Fly look dead broke). Ultimately, it was the horses who paid: the rescue mare was taken back by the rescue after she was found in horrible conditions (skinny, cribbing, in a tiny stall 6" deep with mud and feces, with no water) and the 4yo was beaten bloody by the lady's boyfriend with a 2'x4' that had rusty nails sticking out of it because she wouldn't load in the tiny, nasty trailer they had (she'd only been trailered one other time in her life and it was in a big, open stock trailer). 

If this girl asks for your help or your opinion, I'd politely tell her that you're not getting involved because someone is going to get hurt and you don't want to be any part of it. *Not your circus, not your monkeys.*


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> This right here, good job, dude. Even your typing seems more relaxed.
> 
> She needs to send this horse to trainer quick, fast, and in a hurry. She is going to get hurt bad. This horse has no respect for her at all!
> 
> Not a dumb question at all, I have a lippy gelding and every so often he needs to be reintroduced to Mr. elbow
> Exactly right, this horse needs to be n full time training for at least 30 days, if she cant afford that, she cant afford to own a horse.


Thanks, I just uploaded the video and Im ready to share it. I know I can still make improvements in it. You will also see me do a bit of join up in the beginning and watch me tie and brush her after. 

You are right, I think its best to put your elbow up.

I agree that she needs to send him off to training. She actually did this last winter, she sent him off to her trainer for training for 2 months. She did groundwork with the colt and said he fixed her. But he obviously is just as bad as before if not worse. Ive seen (briefly when the trainer was out once to visit) how the colt is with the trainer and he is fine. But hes completely different when with the owner because she lets him get away with everything. Now, I know Im still learning and Im not saying im in any form an expert (but I used to be down this road), I let my mare get away with far too much stuff (unintentionally of course and thats cause I didnt know the criticalness of not letting this happen). It wasnt until I read in a book, the famous quote 

*"Horses are always learning, you are always teaching them something every second you handle them*, whether you meant to or not"...and its a quote that has stuck in my mind ever since and will be forever because it has been one of the most valuable pieces of advice Ive taken in so far to date. When I read this quote, it really opened my eyes and I really started to change.

The #1 thing that is hurting my friend (and the BO solely agrees) is that she is hand grazing him and feeding him treats, cookies, carrots, watermelon every single day. She brings pales to the barn everyday and walks up to him with pales of his favourite treats. She cant even get in the field because the horses wont let her because they will be standing right at the gate. But when she does get inside, they mug her for the treats. She needs to quit hand grazing him if she wants him to stop diving for grass. I know she loves spoiling her boy and her is her baby, but she needs to quit with the food cause this is the only thing that her colt connects her with - treats and grass and he gets them everyday and lots of it.

Cause as soon as he sees her, he thinks one thing and one thing only - its grass time and he gets to eat as much grass as he wants and where he wants, he calls the shots.


----------



## Prairie

There is nothing wrong with breaking a horse in a bitless bridle. Many use a bosal as the first introduction to a bridle and it is legal for showing in till the horse is 4 or 5, depending on the breed. I retrained our mare in a sidepull due to the damage to her mouth from her years of abuse. One has to understand that a bridle is not the steering or the brakes-----that's what your legs, seat, weight and core are for! The reins and bridle are to refine the lines of communication with the horse.


Really, you need to let the BO deal with all the drama at the barn and concentrate on yourself. All this heresay about what is happening at your barn is just confusing you and interfering with your learning curve.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Prairie said:


> Really, you need to let the BO deal with all the drama at the barn and concentrate on yourself. All this heresay about what is happening at your barn is just confusing you and interfering with your learning curve.


THIS!!!!

This is exactly why I keep saying "Not your circus, not your monkeys!!" Leave well enough alone and concentrate on YOU. If someone else gets hurt or something happens, that's on them. None of your business other than to make note of what NOT to do, then move on.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Agree that the girl needs to send that horse off to a trainer and then take lessons from that trainer so she knows how to handle and correct the horse so that training is not undone.
> 
> For the horse's head bumping into yours, why is the handler standing that close to the horse without making sure the horse is focused on him? If the horse has intentionally invaded my space, he'd be quickly backed out of it with no question that he made the wrong move. If it was accidental, such as I moved and a youngster didn't move fast enough to be out of "my space", we'd repeat this until he knew that he had to move away unless I invited him into my space.
> 
> Why are you wanting to lead your mare standing directly in front of her? That's a good way to get run over if she spooks forward since you don't have an eye on her so you can move out of the way. Also, due to the location of the horse's eyes on her head, there is a distance in front of her where her vision may not see you (memory fails me, but I think it's 3-4 feet in front of the horse so correct me if I'm wrong, please).


I think at this point, winter is too long to wait for training and each day its getting worse, it just makes it 100 times harder to fix. There is no doubt that this colt is being ruined. 

She wont correct him, she wont hit him because he is her baby and she doesnt want to hurt him. But she needs to, to send a message.

But talking with the BO, he doesnt think she is going to change. She goes out to the barn every night and he sees a lot of stuff between her and her colt that I and other boarders and the trainer dont see. He says the reason why he doesnt think she will change is because she is convinced that her colt loves her. Simply cause he is still a baby and the fact she knows he will come up to her each time he sees her in the field. He will follow her around without her even asking for it. But its not because of her, its because she always has treats on her and when he sees her, he knows its grass time. But she doesnt see it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Really, you need to let the BO deal with all the drama at the barn and concentrate on yourself. All this heresay about what is happening at your barn is just confusing you and interfering with your learning curve.


You are right, I need to focus on myself. As much as I would like to help other boarders, its none of my business and let the BO deal with it since its his property, he holds the liability forms, agreements etc.

Heres my video from last night.

Id still suggest clicking on the title link to watch from my youtube page to see it in HD. Still not sure why videos dont play in HD when playing from the embedded play button.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I think at this point, winter is too long to wait for training and each day its getting worse, it just makes it 100 times harder to fix. There is no doubt that this colt is being ruined.
> 
> She wont correct him, she wont hit him because he is her baby and she doesnt want to hurt him. But she needs to, to send a message.
> 
> But talking with the BO, he doesnt think she is going to change. She goes out to the barn every night and he sees a lot of stuff between her and her colt that I and other boarders and the trainer dont see. He says the reason why he doesnt think she will change is because she is convinced that her colt loves her. Simply cause he is still a baby and the fact she knows he will come up to her each time he sees her in the field. He will follow her around without her even asking for it. But its not because of her, its because she always has treats on her and when he sees her, he knows its grass time. But she doesnt see it.




And all of this is none of your business! You have your hands full with learning how to ride and care for your mare without worrying about what someone else is doing. You also don't have the knowledge or experience to know if what she is doing will ruin the colt or judge her. Also, that BO is a very poor businessman if he is discussing other boarders with you as you've mentioned often. That should be between him and the girl with no discussions of the situation with you. You seems to be on the level of someone in middle school with all the bashing and negative comments of others, not a mature man with a real life.


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## greentree

I gave up at 2:15..... Up to then I saw her say " screw you!" three times. She wanted to walk over the bridge off lead, and would have, if invited. Then she gave you that go to heck look, and walked by, then followed you as you walked the way she wanted to go, and then went into "ignore", again. You are wasting your time....put the lead rope on, do what you want...put the saddle on and ride her over the stuff. 

What you are doing is not Liberty, or NH, it is teaching the horse to ignore you. 

Sorry. I will try to watch the rest later.


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## DraftyAiresMum

That mare is NOT afraid of the bridge. She's not even worried about it. What she IS doing is flipping you the middle finger every time she refuses. The mare glare, the swishing tail...that mare is ****ED!

The first time she got her front feet off the ground when she refused (somewhere around the 5 minute mark), her little hiney would have been run backward so fast she wouldn't have known what was happening. Not only is that incredibly disrespectful (*and you didn't do anything about it!!!*), but it is dangerous. 

It should NOT take five minutes to get a horse who has been over a bridge numerous times just to take one step onto it. 

May I ask why you didn't get after her the first time she refused and she threw that mini rear at you?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I gave up at 2:15..... Up to then I saw her say " screw you!" three times. She wanted to walk over the bridge off lead, and would have, if invited. Then she gave you that go to heck look, and walked by, then followed you as you walked the way she wanted to go, and then went into "ignore", again. You are wasting your time....put the lead rope on, do what you want...put the saddle on and ride her over the stuff.
> 
> What you are doing is not Liberty, or NH, it is teaching the horse to ignore you.
> 
> Sorry. I will try to watch the rest later.


I wasnt asking for her to go over the bridge before 2:!5.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That mare is NOT afraid of the bridge. She's not even worried about it. What she IS doing is flipping you the middle finger every time she refuses. The mare glare, the swishing tail...that mare is ****ED!
> 
> The first time she got her front feet off the ground when she refused (somewhere around the 5 minute mark), her little hiney would have been run backward so fast she wouldn't have known what was happening. Not only is that incredibly disrespectful (*and you didn't do anything about it!!!*), but it is dangerous.
> 
> It should NOT take five minutes to get a horse who has been over a bridge numerous times just to take one step onto it.
> 
> May I ask why you didn't get after her the first time she refused and she threw that mini rear at you?


I didnt do anything because I saw it as her running into the corner of the bridge with not enough room to step onto it.


----------



## Prairie

"I wasnt asking for her to go over the bridge before 2:!5. "


That's because you were too busy try to "join up" with is a total myth and marketing ploy for owners who don't have the sense to figure out that horses are not going to join up with humans! You should have had that lead rope on her and just led her over the tarp and bridge---end of story!


"I didnt do anything because I saw it as her running into the corner of the bridge with not enough room to step onto it."


You can't read a horse so you have no idea what she was telling you.......that mare has your number and it's just going to get worse as she pushes the boundary of good behavior and figures out you are clueless about being a leader.. 





http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/my-journey-becoming-strong-leader-702169/page75/#


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> That's because you were too busy try to "join up" with is a total myth and marketing ploy for owners who don't have the sense to figure out that horses are not going to join up with humans! You should have had that lead rope on her and just led her over the tarp and bridge---end of story!


I didnt have the lead rope on her right away cause I wanted to make sure I established myself first before starting. I didnt do it last time and look how distracted she was.



> You can't read a horse so you have no idea what she was telling you.......that mare has your number and it's just going to get worse as she pushes the boundary of good behavior and figures out you are clueless about being a leader..


umm I dont know what to say. I wont let it get worse.

So would you say I should do the bridge with her again and work on getting her on it quicker?


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## Skyseternalangel

12 minutes of trying to walk across the bridge. The one time she did it, should have been when you stopped and moved onto something else.

Also you don't have her attention at all. She's basically giving you the finger but so passively that there is no fire in it.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> I didnt have the lead rope on her right away cause I wanted to make sure I established myself first before starting. I didnt do it last time and look how distracted she was.


You weren't doing anything!!!! If you think that is "establishing" yourself, then I am scared as hell for you. Because any other horse would knock your *** to the ground or jump the arena gate to go self-graze.


----------



## Prairie

What are you trying to establish? An alpha mare doesn't worry about join up with her herd nor does she piddle around if a horse gives her the finger. If I went through all that nonsense with our horses that you do to "join up", I'd never get 4 of them worked in a day. They know that when I put on their halters, it's time to get to work----no need for all that establishing myself! I'm their leader and outside of a certain mare who enjoys a long discussion (and has earned that privilege after saving my butt too many times to count when life went south on the trail), we get to work on the lesson or just head out on our ride.  Our horses know we are fair leaders who won't ask anything that will cause pain and that respect has been earned by us always working with them fairly and listening to what they have to say. It doesn't have to be re-established every time we halter them, but does need to be reinforced if one were to challenge our position as alpha.


----------



## greentree

Skyseternalangel said:


> 12 minutes of trying to walk across the bridge. The one time she did it, should have been when you stopped and moved onto something else.
> 
> Also you don't have her attention at all. She's basically giving you the finger but so passively that there is no fire in it.


Guess there is no need to watch the rest....

I KNOW you were not asking, but she would have....THEN when you ASKED, she wouldn't? (Did not watch, so I do not know) 

As I said, discontinue this stuff and ride her over the tarp and the bridge.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> You weren't doing anything!!!! If you think that is "establishing" yourself, then I am scared as hell for you. Because any other horse would knock your *** to the ground or jump the arena gate to go self-graze.


But this is what my outside trainer taught me. What I did in the very start of the video is what she taught me to do each time I bring her into the arena. Let her loose, make sure her attention is solely on me before doing anything and do that by joining up.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> What are you trying to establish? An alpha mare doesn't worry about join up with her herd nor does she piddle around if a horse gives her the finger. If I went through all that nonsense with our horses that you do to "join up", I'd never get 4 of them worked in a day. They know that when I put on their halters, it's time to get to work----no need for all that establishing myself! I'm their leader and outside of a certain mare who enjoys a long discussion (and has earned that privilege after saving my butt too many times to count when life went south on the trail), we get to work on the lesson or just head out on our ride. Our horses know we are fair leaders who won't ask anything that will cause pain and that respect has been earned by us always working with them fairly and listening to what they have to say. It doesn't have to be re-established every time we halter them, but does need to be reinforced if one were to challenge our position as alpha.


The reason why my outside trainer made me join up each time I catch her and bring her into the arena is because she wanted me to be able to yield my mares hind end by just looking at her tail and having her come to me. She did not want me to go right up to my mare and just catch and halter her because I was going through a bit of a spell where my mare would walk away from me. Trainer said this accomplishes nothing, shes telling me that she doesnt acknowledge my presense in the field and she would rather walk off with her herd mates. I want to draw her to me. So by looking at her tail and getting her to turn to face me, it gets her focus directly square on me.

I know I asked her quite a bit about this at the start and she said that it "tells the horse that ___ is here, my attention is on you".

Now whether any of that is right, I dont know. But this is what she told me. Ive been doing this ever since I started working with the outside trainer and I have noticed a difference in my mare. I look at her tail, she stops what shes doingm turns to face me and comes to me, then I lower her head and halter her. Some times it may only take one look and she does it, other times a few. But she will do it.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> But this is what my outside trainer taught me. What I did in the very start of the video is what she taught me to do each time I bring her into the arena. Let her loose, make sure her attention is solely on me before doing anything and do that by joining up.



How many of us have told you to forget everything that outside trainer supposedly taught you......all she did was empty your wallet without teaching you anything. Join up is a joke and is a ploy by a couple of money grabbing wanna-be trainers to separate new horse owners from their money.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> How many of us have told you to forget everything that outside trainer supposedly taught you......all she did was empty your wallet without teaching you anything. Join up is a joke and is a ploy by a couple of money grabbing wanna-be trainers to separate new horse owners from their money.


I know and I am in the process forgetting everything what my outside trainer taught me. The thing is, Im just trying to see the bad in join up.

I will give you an example. Before (not always, this only started about 2 months ago when I started doing groundwork with my mare again and when she knows shes being worked, she will be harder to catch, otherwise catching her has always been her best quality).

*This was the situation BEFORE I worked with my outside trainer. *I go out in the field walking to my mare (not directly) to catch her. As I approach, she will walk away. If I follow her, she will keep walking away. Usually following her friends. Sometimes she would trot a bit, so sometimes i would be walking from one end of the field to the other and back. WHat I used to always do in this situation was cut off her driveline so that she would stop and then I would halter her. 

I was told this achieves nothing because you are having to do all the work in catching them when it should be the opposite (having the horse come to you).

*Over the past month and a bit what Ive been doing is.*. I go to the field, I dont walk right up to her, but I stop and look at her tail. I can look at her tail to get her to turn to face me and acknowledge my presense. If she doesnt do it or ignores it, then I put pressure on that tail by tagging it with the end of the stick. If she wants to keep walking away from me, then I put pressure on her hind end and drive her away by flicking the string on the stick. As she is off and away, I just casually stand looking elsewhere, relaxed body language, dont pay attention to her until her attention is back onto me (which is within seconds). Then I ask for her hind end again.

My point is, she has been quicker to catch a lot of the times when I did this. Sometimes it would take a few looks to her tail to get her to come to me, other times once. Sometimes Ive been able to get her to stop eating grass and turn into me.


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## cbar

OK...I think the 'join-up' each time you bring her into the arena is a waste of time. I just watched and saw you follow your mare around the arena while she ignored you. In my opinion, kind of a waste of time. I really don't think that doing this every time is going to benefit your training your mare in anyway. 

As for the bridge stuff...you were displaying a lot of patience which is a good trait to have. If it were me though, I probably would have ended the bridge session once she walked on it. I also did not see a horse that was scared of it. Rather she was being stubborn. Sorry, I did not watch the entire video so not sure what happened after that. 

My one piece of advise is forget the "join up" BS and just get your mare in the arena and get to work.


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## tinyliny

before I watch your new video, I'd like to add my com,ments to the many other good ones (you are getting the best free advice around !)

that girl needs a trainer for that horse. I want to ask what such a timid and apparently clueless person is doing with a colt (stud?) and has all these ideas of training bitless and all, yet cannot get the little demon lift his head from the grass? this is a mismatch if ever I've seen one, and that girl should look for a different horse if she is unable to put the time and money into training it. why do you think a well trained horse costs more? becuase of the time and money put into MAKING it a well trained horse!!!!!

ok. rant over and out.

as for the should I move my head if it looks like the horse's head will contact mine question . . .

yes. you should. in the same way you move your feet out of the way of their hooves. HOWEVER (this is a big however) you only do this when self preservation is your only option. long before you are in this place, you address the horse's lack of respect for your space, and you do it before you are a milimeter from getting your nose broken, or a black eye from that 100lb head swinging into you.

you start by having your 'third eye' (your perepheral vision) ALWAYS on your horse's head or feet (you've got perepheral vision on two sides) when that head starts coming too close, you reach over and tap firmly on the cheek bone and ask the hrose to keep her head over in HER space. do it EVERY time she leaves her space and enters yours. you don't have to whale on her, just a sharp tap and a hiss or a "uh!uh! " or a "over there!" or whatever . 
eventually, you will see her start to move her head over and all you've have to do is make that sound, or just very lightly wave your hand at her face to remeind her to keep her head over. I like the hrose to keep their head no closer than a point off the shoulder, like at a 45 degree angle off of the shoulder. 

I am not a Nazi about it. if the hrose puts their head around politely to sniff me and I can tell they are very respectful, I allow them , then ask them to return to their place. but, in the beginning, the hrose must learn to have an awareness of his head and yours.

that said, they will forget and move suddenly at some time. all horses will. THAT is when you move out of the way if you value your head.

all this applies to how to take care of YOUR feet in the near vicinity of a 1200lb animal who wears iron on HIS feet.

now, off to watch your video.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I wasnt asking for her to go over the bridge before 2:!5.


I think greentree was commenting on your "join up" (or lack thereof). Fly did act like she was willing to go over the bridge at liberty before you "joined up." 



Hoofpic said:


> I didnt do anything because I saw it as her running into the corner of the bridge with not enough room to step onto it.


Sorry, but that was a huge middle finger directed precisely at you from her. I watched it twice, just to be sure. I didn't see her hit the bridge (and even if she did, so what? That does NOT give her leave to REAR!). I saw her stop, plant that back end, and pop up in front. Every single time she refused, she was essentially saying "Screw you, dude."


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## Hoofpic

cbar said:


> OK...I think the 'join-up' each time you bring her into the arena is a waste of time. I just watched and saw you follow your mare around the arena while she ignored you. In my opinion, kind of a waste of time. I really don't think that doing this every time is going to benefit your training your mare in anyway.
> 
> As for the bridge stuff...you were displaying a lot of patience which is a good trait to have. If it were me though, I probably would have ended the bridge session once she walked on it. I also did not see a horse that was scared of it. Rather she was being stubborn. Sorry, I did not watch the entire video so not sure what happened after that.
> 
> My one piece of advise is forget the "join up" BS and just get your mare in the arena and get to work.


The reason why Im following my mare when she is walking away is to create an arc on her hind end and keep myself in position to keep asking for it. When we first did join up with her in the arena she always did this and it took her a good 25mins for her to catch on to realize what we were wanting.

I didnt end the session with the bridge as soon as she stepped on it because my goal was to get her to walk on and over it without any stoppage or slow down in her feet as she gets to the bridge. ANd have me keep walking forward at the same pace while keeping my eyes forward and have her follow. I learned in the clinic last weekend that by walking the horse over the bridge a bunch of times afterwards, it gets them more comfortable in doing what you ask. ANd I felt once wasnt enough. I had her walk over it 5 times without slowing down or stopping, yes I could have ended it at maybe 2 or 3 times but I dont think 5 was terrible either.

My goal at the start was that I was going to just walk forward and not even keep her in my peripheral vision and have her follow onto and over the bridge (this exact same thing happened when I first worked with her on the tarp). She wasnt doing this, she was going around the bridge so then I had to back up and start to ask for the step first onto the bridge then follow through. Then as time went on, I went back to my original plan of me just walking forward and having her follow me without any slow down or stoppage and she did that. Except I just had to be off the bridge the whole time.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I wasnt asking for her to go over the bridge before 2:!5.





Hoofpic said:


> I didnt do anything because I saw it as her running into the corner of the bridge with not enough room to step onto it.





DraftyAiresMum said:


> I think greentree was commenting on your "join up" (or lack thereof). Fly did act like she was willing to go over the bridge at liberty before you "joined up."
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but that was a huge middle finger directed precisely at you from her. I watched it twice, just to be sure. I didn't see her hit the bridge (and even if she did, so what? That does NOT give her leave to REAR!). I saw her stop, plant that back end, and pop up in front. Every single time she refused, she was essentially saying "Screw you, dude."


ETA: Just watched it a third time...she may have knocked the bridge a tad with her hoof, but she pops up well after that happened. A good three seconds after. NOTHING excuses a rear. Absolutely nothing.


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## Prairie

"I learned in the clinic last weekend that by walking the horse over the bridge a bunch of times afterwards, it gets them more comfortable in doing what you ask."


Not really, all you've managed to do is have a bored horse and lose her focus. Once or twice is plenty of time to get them comfortable with something new that you ask and learning to obey your cues. Horses are NOT stupid and are quick learners if your training techniques are the correct ones for that particular horse.


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## tinyliny

ok, I watched half the video. I hope I didn't quit too soon.

here's what I see:

first of all, I LOVE your mare. she is a really nice horse, and a good match for you. you two will become really good partners, in time.

secondly, I love how calm you are. some folks say you are doing nothing. and yes, you are too passive. but, it's easier to UP your energy than to tone down energy that is too busy or bossy. it will not take much to clarify your calmness into 'steadiness' , which is a quality horses love.

you are kind of aimless in your approach, but your mare is such a kind sort that it is not a real problem. some horses would become irritated, or would start taking over. she is very tolerant and willing, that's why I think that eventually, as you gain clarity, she will meet you and there will be a very nice partnership.

lastly, your willingness to learn is another element that can make this partnership go. just don't let yourself be too focussed on the 'steps'. like whether or not one moves their feet, or allows horse to sniff or walks with or without horse over bridge.
too much brain power on those things will make you unable to see what is actually happening with your hrose, right then and there.

for example. at about 7 minutes, the horse wanted to put her eyes on the bridge. her THOUGHT was actually wanting to go to the brigge. right then, if you'd seen that, was a time to let her thought go there. you WANT her thought ON the bridge, so if she indicates a willingness to go there, let her. once she was there, you could ask her to carry more thgouth into the bridge, and ask her to thik about putting a foot on the bridge. if she did, yet could not walk forward, you let her take her foot off, but go right back to asking her to think about the bridge and put a foot on. 
see, if she can't walk the whole length of the bridge, abandon that goal and go to where the 'stuck' place is: her thought about even puttig a foot on the bridge. work on that only. get that really easy, then ask for more.

another example of how you can disregard the 'steps' and find a smaller, more achievable goal. why not haver her step on and over the bridge the short way? see? you have to be mentally flexible and willing to see things from the hroses point of view.

one poster her commented, a ways back, that she didn't want to go over the bridge WITH you becuase it felt too close to you, and I agree with that. she is such a polite mare, she did not want to be too close to you on that confined space. you may think , 'it's only 4 iches from plenty of open space", but the hrose does not see it that way.

also, consider the sound her hooves make when she walks on a different surface. this can often scare a horse. 
horses are very careful about where they walk. they value their balance above all, and amnything that threatens that (not saying you were, this is just a general comment) will make them feel very anxious.


I wish I could walk right into your video and work with you. I see a great deal of potential.


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## tinyliny

oh, and with regard to the join up at the beginning and how you catch her. folks can dis it all they want, but it isn't going to hurt anything to try it. what you were doing was ok. just, well, it only appears to work because the mare really had nothing else to compete for her attention, so she picked you. 

had there been anything else to draw her attention, your actions would have been totally fruitless. 

it's nice to be calm and give her a good place to come to, but you don't have to wait that long for her to chose you. you can put a little pressure on her when she walks past you as if you are not there. you let her chose that, but as soon as her hiney is toward you (outside of kicking range) , put a little more pressure on. you can make a little noise, you can kick a little sand , you can slap your thigh, you can swing your rope . . . . anything that makes her feel startled enough to stop ambling off and turn around at look at you. you are MAKING YOURSELF IMPORTANT. then, be calm and wait for her to make a choice again: YOU or 'out there'. if she chooses "out there', and she leaves you, you do something to make yourself more important than 'out there'.

now, what you do, how 'loud' you get depends on how 'hard' she is mentally 'out there'. if she just barely leaves you mentally, you just barely do something to bring her back. if she is menatlly GONE , you may have to do quite a bit to get her back. 
this is where you start to practice matching your energy to hers, which is based on careful observation of her, and staying in the present,.
it also means you have to learn how to bring up YOUR energy, since you will have to match hers, and exceed it just enough for her to come to you instead of 'out there'.

does this make sense?


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## egrogan

I want to second what @tinyliny said about Fly's very sweet, willing attitude. Yeah, she tuned you out a few times and gave you a little (very mild) attitude...She would have done what you wanted much more quickly if you had just asked her to. But I think if you have to have a green horse to learn with, this is about as good as it could be. I kind of want you to send her here to me, she's got the kind of personality I really enjoy 



Hoofpic said:


> The reason why Im following my mare when she is walking away is to create an arc on her hind end and keep myself in position to keep asking for it. When we first did join up with her in the arena she always did this and it took her a good 25mins for her to catch on to realize what we were wanting.


Think about what you said right here. A few posts ago, you said you did this "join up" thing because walking out to your horse in a field to snap on a lead makes "you do the work" instead of the horse. But it seems like you could walk up to Fly and within 25 _seconds_ snap the lead on her halter vs. 25 _minutes _of following her around to "create an arc...and keep asking for it." That just doesn't make a lot of logical sense.

The last few days, people have rightly pointed out that to get out of your head, just think about what you're trying to accomplish, focusing on the end goal, not all the process steps. Your end goal is to have a lead on a horse and get her paying attention, right? So if you can snap the lead on and then _do _something with her that deserves giving you her attention, then just get on with it, rather than playing all these unnecessary games! She just seems so ready to be given a challenge, and you're slowing her down because you're working her through some preset program that doesn't really apply to what you want her to do.


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## anndankev

In the first bridge video I felt you were trying to 'send' your mare over the bridge. Going on her own from your direction while you were some feet away from her. It was a good start, although you needed to remain very close to her, I don't think it helped to be on the bridge asking her to come onto it' however, at the same time I have reverted to that myself.

As you know I am no expert.

The replies posted on this thread were primarily from people in the 'lead close', traditional showmanship style. They were very critical of the method you were trying. And recommending you throw all stuff out. On the other hand, I get the idea that you want to handle her in this style, as well as in the traditional manner.

And I don't see anything wrong with that. The trouble is learning both at the same time can be confusing and muddle things up, both with you and your mare. That is way long ago I suggested you stay where you are and learn from your instructor and barn owner. 

So in the second bridge video I saw your goal change to leading her over, and getting a bit muddled. I admit I did not watch it in full, skipped parts.

If you want to do this NH style, that is sending her over. Then continue to do that until she does it well. This is my opinion. 

With that set up of tarp and bridge parallel and with space between I would, and have with more than one horse (even with two at once). Stood in the between the tarp and bridge and sent the horse over either, at my choosing. 

For example a complete circle crossing both, at walk or trot. cross one, turn around and go back over the same one. Go inside one and over the other, outside one. Stop when at center, and have them turn and cross toward me. Have one horse come in and pivot with me while the other out, and switch.

Many people do not see the point in all this, that it is not worthwhile, I respect their opinions. It will not get you any ribbons. On the other hand in general I do not feel that these people give consideration to my goals. Or respect that this is what I want and like to do.

Many, many people can speak fluently in more than one language. I am not one of them, I do admire them though. 

I don't know if that soliloquy makes sense to you, or anyone else. But Hoofpic, if you want to send her over the bridge, there is no reason to let naysayers talk you out of it. 

Here are a couple of videos of Chief and I working on a bridge. It is across a swale that had been filled with water/ice from recent winter rains and only just gone down, still some water at the bottom so I kept to the banks or on the birdge. It was very muddy and slippery as well. The first part I am first attempting to get him to walk onto and stop on the bridge, it evolved to getting him to circle around me over both the wooden and land bridge. 

On the second video, wanting to hurry up for the video I went more to leading him on. I was trying to make an application video for a clinic. And just one more little remark: Hoofpic, notice that one time where Chief did not step on the bridge but went to go around me as avoidance, I did not let him finish the circle around me - made him stop and go back the way he came to the starting point.

Also I just want to note, that I am very self-conscious when people are looking at me/watching me and it has a negative impact on my comfort level and performance.


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## greentree

Please, Hoofpic, WATCH the first two minutes of the video. Join up is putting pressure on the horse to MAKE them move, until they relinquish the hold on the urge to leave, when they realize that you know HOW to do this, then they turn and face you, and you can"speak" to them by inviting them in, and they follow you when you turn to leave.

When you are being taught something, and you believe you have demonstrated to the person teaching that you UNDAeRSTAND, but they keep trying to show you how to do it, what happens?? Your brain goes " lalalala".....blablabla, THAT is what you are doing to Fly.

She was following you, thinking she was doing what you wanted, tried to go over the bridge, told you she did not understand, thought she was doing what you asked.....then you asked her,very weakly, to yield, and she was DONE, and she kept on walking, got a little mad.


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## 6gun Kid

I see some good things and some bad things. Good things: you are calm and patient. You are persistent, but not a nagger. Bad things: your horse basically ignored you, and that rear? Lawdy, I'd have pushed back on that lead rope and backed her so fast, she'd have thought her head was on fire and her *** was catching.
I like how quiet you are, but you have to be firm too. You already know what I think of a that liberty garbage, so I am not even going to address it.


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## Hoofpic

Since I have a clip of me brushing my mare in the video, it reminded me a couple lessons ago, my outside trainer was telling me that Im tying my mare too low and that I should be tying her to this horizonal wood bar well above.

I thought it sounded odd. You can see in the pic where I pinpointed where the top wood piece is. Not a single person at the barn ties there horse to it ever. They all use the vertical posts that I use in this pic.

Why would you want to tie a horse up that high?


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## tinyliny

6gun Kid said:


> I see some good things and some bad things. Good things: you are calm and patient. You are persistent, but not a nagger. Bad things: your horse basically ignored you, and that rear? Lawdy, I'd have pushed back on that lead rope and backed her so fast, she'd have thought her head was on fire and her *** was catching.
> I like how quiet you are, but you have to be firm too. You already know what I think of a that liberty garbage, so I am not even going to address it.



I went back to see where the horse had 'reared'. i had not even really made note of that. personally, I would not punish that horse harshly for that. why? because the man was so very unclear about what he expected of her, her reaction is not pure disobediance, but more frustration at the lack of clarity. to punish her for what is more the leading human's fault would only make her anxious.

I would, however, have stayed right there, and persisted and clarified the "step your foot onto the bridge" request. really, that mare is very ready to comply as soon as hoofpic is more able to make clear requests.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I think greentree was commenting on your "join up" (or lack thereof). Fly did act like she was willing to go over the bridge at liberty before you "joined up."
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but that was a huge middle finger directed precisely at you from her. I watched it twice, just to be sure. I didn't see her hit the bridge (and even if she did, so what? That does NOT give her leave to REAR!). I saw her stop, plant that back end, and pop up in front. Every single time she refused, she was essentially saying "Screw you, dude."


Ok I get it and see it now. Could I have walked her over the bridge at liberty? Yes but I felt it was too much for me to ask for at this stage. Liberty starts at on line work right.

Ive made the decision that I will not do join up with my mare anymore when entering the arena. 

But I will say that there are times where I do like to let her loose to get out her bucks and kicks. Yes she is out in the field but you would be surprised how much energy still still wants to let out when i let her loose in the arena every now and then.

The thing is, I wouldnt know how to correct a horse who rears up. I know many of you on here are big fans of aggressively backing up a horse 10 ft or 50ft. But I just think there are so many better ways to correct a horse for something like this. What they are, I dont know.


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## KigerQueen

Im not a HUGE CA fan but watch some of his stuff. its basically horsemanship for dummies. he EXPLAINS everything he asks and will exadurate what he is doing. he THEN shows you how to translate it to the saddle and what and how he corrects the horse. he us not all is a mythical anima. its an animal with a brain the size of a lime (maybe). that may care about you but dose not have the capacity to love you as unconditionally or cognitively as say a dog.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> ETA: Just watched it a third time...she may have knocked the bridge a tad with her hoof, but she pops up well after that happened. A good three seconds after. NOTHING excuses a rear. Absolutely nothing.


I need to know ways to correct something like that. When it happened, I thought it was my fault (and plus I was at an angle when standing from her, so she looked a further into the pallete than I realized). But had I known, I would have corrected her, I just dont know how.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Not really, all you've managed to do is have a bored horse and lose her focus. Once or twice is plenty of time to get them comfortable with something new that you ask and learning to obey your cues. Horses are NOT stupid and are quick learners if your training techniques are the correct ones for that particular horse.


Yes I could have ended it after the 2nd time she walked on and over the bridge with no slowing down or stopping. It definitely crossed my mind during the moment but I said i would do it a couple more times. My mistake. But now I know for the future.


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## greentree

If she were giving you a problem being tied, or if she were a baby with little tying experience, then yes, we try to tie a horse above their head, because when they pull back, it gives them less leverage on the pull. Horses necks get broken when they decide they do not want to stand tied any longer.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> ok, I watched half the video. I hope I didn't quit too soon.
> 
> here's what I see:
> 
> first of all, I LOVE your mare. she is a really nice horse, and a good match for you. you two will become really good partners, in time.


Thanks. Im confident as well that we can be really good partners over time. But I need to get better.



> secondly, I love how calm you are. some folks say you are doing nothing. and yes, you are too passive. but, it's easier to UP your energy than to tone down energy that is too busy or bossy. it will not take much to clarify your calmness into 'steadiness' , which is a quality horses love.


Thanks. My calmness is one of my best qualities as a person in general. 

What do you mean Im too passive? Not walking direct and fast enough?



> you are kind of aimless in your approach, but your mare is such a kind sort that it is not a real problem. some horses would become irritated, or would start taking over. she is very tolerant and willing, that's why I think that eventually, as you gain clarity, she will meet you and there will be a very nice partnership.


Im trying to be more direct but I know for this one it was a bit tough because I wanted to keep my mare in my peripheral vision. So though I was keeping my head up, eyes forward and thinking in my mind to keep moving forward, I was still looking away in my peripheral vision to make sure that she was following what I ask or else i wouldnt have a clue on what happened. 

Not trying to make excuses or anything.



> lastly, your willingness to learn is another element that can make this partnership go. just don't let yourself be too focussed on the 'steps'. like whether or not one moves their feet, or allows horse to sniff or walks with or without horse over bridge.
> too much brain power on those things will make you unable to see what is actually happening with your hrose, right then and there.


And this is why I think it was a wise decision I stopped having my outside trainer out because she was all about the very little details. Putting my mares feet back to exactly where they were, me keeping my feet still. IMO it was just too much for the both of us.



> for example. at about 7 minutes, the horse wanted to put her eyes on the bridge. her THOUGHT was actually wanting to go to the brigge. right then, if you'd seen that, was a time to let her thought go there. you WANT her thought ON the bridge, so if she indicates a willingness to go there, let her. once she was there, you could ask her to carry more thgouth into the bridge, and ask her to thik about putting a foot on the bridge. if she did, yet could not walk forward, you let her take her foot off, but go right back to asking her to think about the bridge and put a foot on.
> see, if she can't walk the whole length of the bridge, abandon that goal and go to where the 'stuck' place is: her thought about even puttig a foot on the bridge. work on that only. get that really easy, then ask for more.


That is true and a good point. I was just leary of having her go back once she put her foot on the bridge cause i was so in the mindset of keep moving forward. 

Also, this bridge isnt new to her at all so thats why i didnt want to really let her sniff the bridge.



> another example of how you can disregard the 'steps' and find a smaller, more achievable goal. why not haver her step on and over the bridge the short way? see? you have to be mentally flexible and willing to see things from the hroses point of view.


Actually I did consider this (not sure when in the video) but there was a time where I said we were going to do it another way and what I mean by it was that I was going to try walking her over the bridge the shorter way but then I quickly flash backed to the clinic from the past weekend and the trainer there said you wouldnt do that because technically your entrance is at the end of the bridge and the exit is at the other end. So each time you have a horse walk on and off that bridge, it must be from the same sides each time.



> one poster her commented, a ways back, that she didn't want to go over the bridge WITH you becuase it felt too close to you, and I agree with that. she is such a polite mare, she did not want to be too close to you on that confined space. you may think , 'it's only 4 iches from plenty of open space", but the hrose does not see it that way.


I agree and thats what i thought as well. the bridge was too narrow. But if I walked in front of her and she was behind, she should have followed me on the bridge. 



> also, consider the sound her hooves make when she walks on a different surface. this can often scare a horse.
> horses are very careful about where they walk. they value their balance above all, and amnything that threatens that (not saying you were, this is just a general comment) will make them feel very anxious.


Good point, never thought of this.



> I wish I could walk right into your video and work with you. I see a great deal of potential.


Thank you.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> The thing is, I wouldnt know how to correct a horse who rears up. I know many of you on here are big fans of aggressively backing up a horse 10 ft or 50ft. But I just think there are so many better ways to correct a horse for something like this. What they are, I dont know.


It doesn't have to be aggressive. Assertive, yes. Why not try the way so many people have been successful with instead of digging deeper into the rabbit hole? 

"I _think_ there are so many better ways to correct a horse for something like this..."

Quit. Over. Thinking.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I've noticed something. Whenever YOU are unsure about something, you put it off on Fly being unsure about it. You say that you're not sure if SHE can handle it or that if SHE is ready for it. What I'm seeing is that YOU are the one who is unsure about it or doesn't know how to do it. There's nothing wrong with that, but you need to be honest for both of your sakes. 

The reason I advocate backing up (aggressively if needed) as a correction for things like biting and rearing is that it puts YOU in control. You are the big scary monster who means business when you're moving your horse backwards. It puts their focus solely on you and because you are MAKING them go a direction they normally wouldn't, it's an unpleasant experience.

The punishment needs to fit the crime and rearing (and biting) are crimes which are top no-nos in my book. When my best friend's mare bit me so hard on the back of the arm that she almost drew blood, you can bet I ran her backward as fast as she would go. Stopped, let her think about what happened, then continued on like nothing had happened. She hasn't bitten me since (or even tried) and that was three years ago. In fact, if she starts acting up with me, all I have to do is take a meaningful step toward her from the front and she immediately backs up a step or two and quits her shenanigans.


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## Knave

Hi! Sometimes I like to read your journal; Fly is beautiful and you care a lot about her, and that makes me smile.

However, as much as I like that you admit what you do not know and always seem interested in learning, I hope that you remember there are 'many ways to skin a cat.'

Sometimes I think you are given great advice, sometimes I think it is bad advice, and sometimes people can be jerks. My Dad is a really great horse trainer, but often I do things differently. He reminds me: "only take the advice if it works for you." By that he means that it is okay if I do things differently. My husband also makes good horses, but his horses are different and he uses different methods. I have taken the methods that I feel work from many people, including the both of them, and I have left the methods that don't work for me.

I guess what I'm trying to tell you is this: don't stop doing something that works for you because some person tells you differently. You are smart, pay attention to your horse, if you are getting results it works for you, and if not it doesn't.


----------



## Hoofpic

anndankev said:


> In the first bridge video I felt you were trying to 'send' your mare over the bridge. Going on her own from your direction while you were some feet away from her. It was a good start, although you needed to remain very close to her, I don't think it helped to be on the bridge asking her to come onto it' however, at the same time I have reverted to that myself.
> 
> As you know I am no expert.
> 
> The replies posted on this thread were primarily from people in the 'lead close', traditional showmanship style. They were very critical of the method you were trying. And recommending you throw all stuff out. On the other hand, I get the idea that you want to handle her in this style, as well as in the traditional manner.
> 
> And I don't see anything wrong with that. The trouble is learning both at the same time can be confusing and muddle things up, both with you and your mare. That is way long ago I suggested you stay where you are and learn from your instructor and barn owner.


I pretty much was trying to replicate what I learned from watching the clinic last weekend, as well as attending in that clinic from a couple months ago where I worked with a 10 year old mare and getting her on pallettes and mattresses and backing her up through L shaped logs. 

My approach in my 2nd video was much better than my first because I was moving my feet and showing her where I want her to go vs just standing on the bridge.

I know the #1 thing when it comes to stuff like this is patience. You have to wait until the horse is confident and comfortable enough before you ask for a step and thats what I was trying to do in my first video. But I also think if I did it with me standing on the side of the bridge it would have been more effective because i wasnt in her way.



> So in the second bridge video I saw your goal change to leading her over, and getting a bit muddled. I admit I did not watch it in full, skipped parts.
> 
> If you want to do this NH style, that is sending her over. Then continue to do that until she does it well. This is my opinion.
> 
> With that set up of tarp and bridge parallel and with space between I would, and have with more than one horse (even with two at once). Stood in the between the tarp and bridge and sent the horse over either, at my choosing.


I would have stood in the centre as well but I felt i wasnt there yet. I would have moved the tarp a bit closer as well. The reason why I spaced them out is so that I could walk with her along both objects and not just direct her, cause I dont have that ability yet. So I need to rely on my body language and the moving of my feet as much as I can to tell her what I want.

See, I wouldnt be able to do any of this with my outside trainer. If she saw it, she would tell me to keep my feel still and direct my mare with the carrot stick.



> For example a complete circle crossing both, at walk or trot. cross one, turn around and go back over the same one. Go inside one and over the other, outside one. Stop when at center, and have them turn and cross toward me. Have one horse come in and pivot with me while the other out, and switch.
> 
> Many people do not see the point in all this, that it is not worthwhile, I respect their opinions. It will not get you any ribbons. On the other hand in general I do not feel that these people give consideration to my goals. Or respect that this is what I want and like to do.
> 
> Many, many people can speak fluently in more than one language. I am not one of them, I do admire them though.
> 
> I don't know if that soliloquy makes sense to you, or anyone else. But Hoofpic, if you want to send her over the bridge, there is no reason to let naysayers talk you out of it.


I see a purpose in doing that as well. That is pretty much the start of cowboy challenge is getting your horse to maneuvuer between and around obstacles, walk, trot around barrels etc, going through transitions, pacing etc.



> And just one more little remark: Hoofpic, notice that one time where Chief did not step on the bridge but went to go around me as avoidance, I did not let him finish the circle around me - made him stop and go back the way he came to the starting point.


I like your videos, thanks, I remember watching them last year as well and it really helped me. You did a great job in them and a bridge like that IMO is much more difficult than the one I did. But I liked your approach.



> Also I just want to note, that I am very self-conscious when people are looking at me/watching me and it has a negative impact on my comfort level and performance.


Im glad that you are showing them to us


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Please, Hoofpic, WATCH the first two minutes of the video. Join up is putting pressure on the horse to MAKE them move, until they relinquish the hold on the urge to leave, when they realize that you know HOW to do this, then they turn and face you, and you can"speak" to them by inviting them in, and they follow you when you turn to leave.
> 
> When you are being taught something, and you believe you have demonstrated to the person teaching that you UNDAeRSTAND, but they keep trying to show you how to do it, what happens?? Your brain goes " lalalala".....blablabla, THAT is what you are doing to Fly.
> 
> She was following you, thinking she was doing what you wanted, tried to go over the bridge, told you she did not understand, thought she was doing what you asked.....then you asked her,very weakly, to yield, and she was DONE, and she kept on walking, got a little mad.


I see what you mean now.

When I was first taught join up (which was in the round pen at the old barn by a previous trainer), he taught me this exact same method you mention.

But then this outside trainer recently taught me how to do it but with the littliest to no pressure at first. The very first lesson I had with her, we were in the round pen. She said I want you to have your mare join up with you, show me. So what did I do? I stood in the middle of the roundpen and put little pressure on her hind end to make her go. As soon as she turned her inside ear to me, lowered her head (Which was within 30secs), I turned and walked away and she followed me.

Trainer said, I could have joined up with my mare within the first 3 secs and i didnt even have to ask her to go in circles at all. But I missed it. All I had to do was look at her tail and as soon as she turned towards me, I walk back. She said there was no need to make her go in circles. Now mind you, this was a completely different method of join up that ive been previously taught.

You see, when she was following me and then sniffed down on the bridge, I immediately thought the connection between us was lost and she was distracted. So going by what my outside trainer taught me, what you do is reconnect by asking for her to face you again.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> It doesn't have to be aggressive. Assertive, yes. Why not try the way so many people have been successful with instead of digging deeper into the rabbit hole?
> 
> "I _think_ there are so many better ways to correct a horse for something like this..."
> 
> Quit. Over. Thinking.


I would think 4 or 5 good steps of the horse backing up, with you applying maximum pressure should be enough eh?

Ok I will try it next time.


----------



## tinyliny

Knave said:


> Hi! Sometimes I like to read your journal; Fly is beautiful and you care a lot about her, and that makes me smile.
> 
> However, as much as I like that you admit what you do not know and always seem interested in learning, I hope that you remember there are 'many ways to skin a cat.'
> 
> Sometimes I think you are given great advice, sometimes I think it is bad advice, and sometimes people can be jerks. My Dad is a really great horse trainer, but often I do things differently. He reminds me: "only take the advice if it works for you." By that he means that it is okay if I do things differently. My husband also makes good horses, but his horses are different and he uses different methods. I have taken the methods that I feel work from many people, including the both of them, and I have left the methods that don't work for me.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to tell you is this: don't stop doing something that works for you because some person tells you differently. You are smart, pay attention to your horse, if you are getting results it works for you, and if not it doesn't.


i like this so much I have to quote it.
a person can get all worried that they are doing things 'wrong' when they work with a horse.

really, all training is is 'getting a change'. hopefully, it's the change you are looking for. horses are very forgiving.

there is one thing to remember, that however you chose to move a hrose, what you are really doing is moving their mind, and THEY move their feet. the better you get at moving/directing their mind, the better everything will go.

really practice watching your horse as you intereact with her and seeing where her thought is; on you or on something else.

practice getting her thought back on you when it strays too far. especially if you then want to ask her to move her feet.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I would think 4 or 5 good steps of the horse backing up, with you applying maximum pressure should be enough eh?
> 
> Ok I will try it next time.


I do it enough to where she HAS to work to get those legs under her. It's quick and direct. It's not supposed to be a walk in the park. It's a correction.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I've noticed something. Whenever YOU are unsure about something, you put it off on Fly being unsure about it. You say that you're not sure if SHE can handle it or that if SHE is ready for it. What I'm seeing is that YOU are the one who is unsure about it or doesn't know how to do it. There's nothing wrong with that, but you need to be honest for both of your sakes.
> 
> The reason I advocate backing up (aggressively if needed) as a correction for things like biting and rearing is that it puts YOU in control. You are the big scary monster who means business when you're moving your horse backwards. It puts their focus solely on you and because you are MAKING them go a direction they normally wouldn't, it's an unpleasant experience.
> 
> The punishment needs to fit the crime and rearing (and biting) are crimes which are top no-nos in my book. When my best friend's mare bit me so hard on the back of the arm that she almost drew blood, you can bet I ran her backward as fast as she would go. Stopped, let her think about what happened, then continued on like nothing had happened. She hasn't bitten me since (or even tried) and that was three years ago. In fact, if she starts acting up with me, all I have to do is take a meaningful step toward her from the front and she immediately backs up a step or two and quits her shenanigans.


You are right and I dont mean to put it on Fly. Sometimes Im unsure because of what ifs, depending on how she reacts. This obviously will go away the more I do something.

I didnt know that backing up a horse when they try to bite would be a great way to correct them. Thanks, now I know. Ive always considered it but never knew if it would make the connection between the action and the correction, whereas biting, then a smack on the mouth on paper makes a clear as day connection.

The good news is that my mare has stopped trying to bite me many many months ago (at least 5 or 6 months) and she almost never rears. How did I fix her biting me (remember that 2-3 week fiasco I had with her where I was stressed out just seeing her? Because she would try to bite me every day and I couldnt correct her due to bad timing?). Well, it wasnt a clear answer on how I fixed this, but over time I saw it...it was when I stopped micro managing her, that she let up and relaxed. The last time she reared was at the old barn, so a long time ago. But now when it happens I know how to correct her for it. Just too bad I didnt last night.

Speaking of rearing, I will tell you one thing and you wont like hearing this. At the old barn (when I first got her) there would be times where I would have her on a lead, we could be standing somewhere and I would ask her to back up. She would rear, like her front feet would come off the ground a good 3ft. ANd all I did was give a sharp downward tug on the lead and say NO! She in fact did this quite a few times with me and I didnt correct her.

But she hasnt done it once ever since arriving at the new barn. When I ask her to back, she always backs. And if she doesnt listen the first time (usually from her being distracted), I will ask again but escalate the pressure, and so on. The good thing is that im able to back her with a lot less pressure now. Why? Because I face her directly squared to her, look her directly in the eye, serious look and mentally think backwards. I find she responds to this body language really well that i often dont have to escalate my pressure (and if I do, definitely not to stage 3 or 4).


----------



## jenkat86

Onward and upward, @Hoofpic!


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> I went back to see where the horse had 'reared'. i had not even really made note of that. personally, I would not punish that horse harshly for that. why? because the man was so very unclear about what he expected of her, her reaction is not pure disobediance, but more frustration at the lack of clarity. to punish her for what is more the leading human's fault would only make her anxious.
> 
> I would, however, have stayed right there, and persisted and clarified the "step your foot onto the bridge" request. really, that mare is very ready to comply as soon as hoofpic is more able to make clear requests.


I need to ask, how do you think I could have given my mare more direct and clear directions when going over the bridge? Shorten the slack in the lead?


----------



## tinyliny

this discussion on running a horse backward harshly if they've reared up has got me wondering. I am questioning that, especially if the hrose is rearing due to balking. I know that if I was ON a hrose that reared, I would not use backing as a correction. I would try for forward, not backward. on the ground?
if horse is balking, and they rear, h m m . . . what say you all? back up a hrose that is already thinking backward? or, ?

shank it hard would be my instinctive response. or, a swift smack on his tummy, especially if he's rearing up and presenting it. 

but, here is where I know that I do not have a ton of experience with such things, just that my gut does not agree with the use of swift /harsh backing for a hrose that is rearing. agree or disagree?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> If she were giving you a problem being tied, or if she were a baby with little tying experience, then yes, we try to tie a horse above their head, because when they pull back, it gives them less leverage on the pull. Horses necks get broken when they decide they do not want to stand tied any longer.


Thanks. And I knew it didnt sound right when my outside trainer suggested Im not tying my mare up high enough. She's standing really well so I dont see a need to change it.

if there is one thing that I regret, I regret not taking videos of Fly when I first got her at the old barn. Mind you, I wasnt on this site at the time, but I really wish you could see the past habits she had and whats she improved on.

Like when I got her, even at the first week at the new barn, when I tied her, she would dance around all the time swinging that hind end from left to right, and back and fourth, ears up, head up, looking around all over the place. It was impossible to even brush her because she would constantly move away from me. I spent 80% of my time just moving her hind end back to where she was. It was frustrating and deflating to see and experience especially when all the other horses tied in the barns would stand quietly. But no Fly would do her dance every time she was tied and this carried on for a long time. Simply cause i didnt have the knowledge to correct her for this. I tried different things but they didnt work.

The week I got her, the second day I decided I would bring her into the barn and tie her and groom her for the very first time. Well lets just say she didnt want to be tied and when I tied her, right away she pushed her nose into me really aggressively. Stupid me, I did not correct her. All I did was push her nose away, but she would do it again, and again same thing I pushed her nose away. All it would have took was a hard smack on her muzzle to really set the tone right off the bat telling her that i wasnt going to put up with her attitude. But I didnt because I didnt have the knowledge or experience to know how to handle a situation like that.

Now if I got her today, Ive always wondered how different things would be at the start of our partnership. We wouldnt go through as many rough patches and the rough patches definitely wouldnt drag on for so long (biting, fussing when being unhaltered, standing tied, turning butt to me etc). But again, thats in the past and im just focusing on whats present today and moving forward.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> I need to ask, how do you think I could have given my mare more direct and clear directions when going over the bridge? Shorten the slack in the lead?



no. you do not need shorter line to direct her thought to the bridge. you put a little bump in the line , toward the object you are asking her to look at and think on. you watch her to see when she does look at it. when she doesn't look, you continue a little 'bump', when she does look, you quit. you can get so good that a bump on the line becomes less a bump and more a little tiny lift of the leadrope. horse's can feel it, they can.

once she's looking, you use the same feel on the leadline to say, "step forward". when she resisted, you stay in there at that place. you hold the line firm. if she goes up, give the line a short sharp hard bump, to get her attention. when she's looking AT you, you ask her to step on the bridge. personally, I like a longer lead line. you can put more 'feel' on the line when it's a good 5 feet long or so.

I am sorry that I cannot explain this in super concrete terms. you just have to experiment with putting a feel on teh line such that you send her thought toward things. I bet you could get really good at this in no time.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

jenkat86 said:


> Onward and upward, @Hoofpic!


Yes! :clap:

I don't mean to come off harsh and I'm sorry if I do. I spent a lot of time rehabbing my old gelding who was handled by people who couldn't be bothered to correct him and turned him into a pushy, rude, borderline dangerous jerk. So, letting a horse get away with (what to me is) a blatant misbehavior hits close to home and I'm passionate about nipping it in the bud.

Fly is a wonderful little mare with A LOT of potential. 

I agree with Tiny that I wish I could step through the computer and help guide you in working with her. There's potential there in both of you and it's great that you want to learn. You just need someone to help you.


----------



## EliRose

Let me just say you are _very _lucky to have such a sweet mare who doesn't lose it with unclear directions.

Just ride her over the bridge. She'll be FINE.


----------



## cbar

@tinyliny....interesting question. I haven't dealt with too many rearing horses myself. When I worked at the track and some of the youngsters would get a little 'uppity' being walked outside, my first instinct was to yank on the lead shank and give their head a little jerk. I never backed them up. Or I would use the end of the lead rope and smack them in the belly to get their attention. Not overly harsh, but enough to let them know that behavior is not tolerated. No clue if that's the right or wrong thing, but instincts just set in and didn't really have time to over-analyze the situation.


----------



## Hoofpic

Knave said:


> Hi! Sometimes I like to read your journal; Fly is beautiful and you care a lot about her, and that makes me smile.
> 
> However, as much as I like that you admit what you do not know and always seem interested in learning, I hope that you remember there are 'many ways to skin a cat.'
> 
> Sometimes I think you are given great advice, sometimes I think it is bad advice, and sometimes people can be jerks. My Dad is a really great horse trainer, but often I do things differently. He reminds me: "only take the advice if it works for you." By that he means that it is okay if I do things differently. My husband also makes good horses, but his horses are different and he uses different methods. I have taken the methods that I feel work from many people, including the both of them, and I have left the methods that don't work for me.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to tell you is this: don't stop doing something that works for you because some person tells you differently. You are smart, pay attention to your horse, if you are getting results it works for you, and if not it doesn't.


Thank you and that IMO is why leaving my outside trainer and doing it right now was absolutely needed. I didn't see it at the time, not even last week but today as the days have gone on, I am seeing it more and more that my mare and I are far better off without the Parelli method. 

I had a discussion on this with my BO just after the big clinic I went to a few weeks ago and he said that the reason why he doesnt like Parelli and will never support him and his training is because there are many ways to teach horses and just because I do something differently, it doesnt make it wrong (which in the Parelli world, it does make it wrong because its not the Parelli way). Teaching and working with horses isnt a one trick pony but according to Parelli it is, and its his way only. 

PS. My BO really dislikes Parelli. There is probably not a single person on his planet who doesnt like him anymore than my BO.

He's been around long enough and has trained enough horses in his lifetime to know how the horse world has evolved over the generations. He saw it when Parelli first started, when Monty Roberts started, Clint Anderson etc. The BO told me, when he learned from his trainer... his trainers would just tell him like it is. No BS around it, no beating around the bush. This happens because of this. That happens because of that. He doesnt make any games out of anything.


----------



## 6gun Kid

tinyliny said:


> I went back to see where the horse had 'reared'. i had not even really made note of that. personally, I would not punish that horse harshly for that. why? because the man was so very unclear about what he expected of her, her reaction is not pure disobediance, but more frustration at the lack of clarity..


 I don't think backing a horse is aggressive punishment and I thought most would recognize at least partially the tongue-in-cheek tone that was intended. I would have backed her up 8 maybe 10 steps quickly enough that she would have to get her feet up under her. As for the confusion part yeah, I see your point. But my response was based on what *I *would have done, if she had reared on *me.*


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> i like this so much I have to quote it.
> a person can get all worried that they are doing things 'wrong' when they work with a horse.
> 
> really, all training is is 'getting a change'. hopefully, it's the change you are looking for. horses are very forgiving.
> 
> there is one thing to remember, that however you chose to move a hrose, what you are really doing is moving their mind, and THEY move their feet. the better you get at moving/directing their mind, the better everything will go.
> 
> really practice watching your horse as you intereact with her and seeing where her thought is; on you or on something else.
> 
> practice getting her thought back on you when it strays too far. especially if you then want to ask her to move her feet.


How would you say are good ways to get a horses attention and focus back onto you? Aside from the usual light sharp snap on the lead. 

Im always trying to focus on my mare and see where her thought and attention is. I watch her ears a lot, same with her head, back legs,etc.


----------



## tinyliny

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Y
> I don't mean to come off harsh and I'm sorry if I do. I spent a lot of time rehabbing my old gelding who was handled by people who couldn't be bothered to correct him and turned him into a pushy, rude, borderline dangerous jerk. So, letting a horse get away with (what to me is) a blatant misbehavior hits close to home and I'm passionate about nipping it in the bud.
> 
> u.



it is easy to get used to applying the same sort of corrections to all horses, regardless of their needs. I, too, am often far too harsh with any sort of 'uppity' behavior. my trainer can be incredibly firm. but, the truth is, most times the hrose just doesn't really understand what is being asked. or, they understand , but they do not believe your intention, meaning your level of committment is so vague to the hrose , the hrose ends up saying, "are you sure you want me to go? I don't think so"

it's the handler's fault for lack of clarity in the request in the first place. 

most of us do a whole lot of 'flailing around' in trying to find our way with horses. join the club!


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> no. you do not need shorter line to direct her thought to the bridge. you put a little bump in the line , toward the object you are asking her to look at and think on. you watch her to see when she does look at it. when she doesn't look, you continue a little 'bump', when she does look, you quit. you can get so good that a bump on the line becomes less a bump and more a little tiny lift of the leadrope. horse's can feel it, they can.
> 
> once she's looking, you use the same feel on the leadline to say, "step forward". when she resisted, you stay in there at that place. you hold the line firm. if she goes up, give the line a short sharp hard bump, to get her attention. when she's looking AT you, you ask her to step on the bridge. personally, I like a longer lead line. you can put more 'feel' on the line when it's a good 5 feet long or so.
> 
> I am sorry that I cannot explain this in super concrete terms. you just have to experiment with putting a feel on teh line such that you send her thought toward things. I bet you could get really good at this in no time.


Thanks. Just visualizing it, I know exactly what you mean. I kinda did as you suggested last night. If we were walking up to the bridge and i felt her walking a bit out of path or her head turning outwards, i would apply a little pressure in the lead to guide her head back. But a bump in the line would be much more effective. I will try this for future obstacles. Im confident it will work and she will catch on right away.

I made the mistake last night thinking one step ahead, thinking that I could guide Fly over that bridge from just by body language alone. We are not there yet. Hence why I think giving her light bumps in the line to keep her focus on me and give clearer direction is needed first. Then when we have this down pat, then I can work on guiding her with just my walk and body language.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

tinyliny said:


> this discussion on running a horse backward harshly if they've reared up has got me wondering. I am questioning that, especially if the hrose is rearing due to balking. I know that if I was ON a hrose that reared, I would not use backing as a correction. I would try for forward, not backward. on the ground?
> if horse is balking, and they rear, h m m . . . what say you all? back up a hrose that is already thinking backward? or, ?
> 
> shank it hard would be my instinctive response. or, a swift smack on his tummy, especially if he's rearing up and presenting it.
> 
> but, here is where I know that I do not have a ton of experience with such things, just that my gut does not agree with the use of swift /harsh backing for a hrose that is rearing. agree or disagree?


I don't see rearing as the horse thinking "backward." I see it as thinking up. Because rearing on the ground is many times accompanied by striking, that is actually a more forward motion. You've got to unstick those back feet somehow, just like if you were in the saddle. A pop/shank on the lead rope isn't going to accomplish that. Neither will popping the horse on the stomach. 

Then there are the horses that don't respond to shanking, like my gelding. I can shank him until the cows come home and he doesn't really care. I've done in a flat nylon halter and in a rope halter with the same response. My old gelding, a pop on the lead rope was the end of the world to him. 

So, to unstick their feet from the ground, you can't yield their hindquarters (what horse is going to pay attention to that once they've gotten to the point of rearing?!). How else are you going to unstick their feet? Yes, pop the halter to get them down, then run them backward to make the behavior as uncomfortable as possible.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> H*ow would you say are good ways to get a horses attention and focus back onto you*? Aside from the usual light sharp snap on the lead.
> 
> Im always trying to focus on my mare and see where her thought and attention is. I watch her ears a lot, same with her head, back legs,etc.


oh my. lots of things. you can scruffle your hand on your vest to make a noise, you can cluck, you can take a step back, you can scuffle the ground, you can kiss, you can raise you hand a wave it, you can dance like a banshee . . . . anything. whatever works , BUT . . . . as little as possible , only as much as necessary.

you experiment. just don't go on and on with super tiny things hoping and begging you'll get her attention. if you do something to get her attention, and you KNOW she heard you but she does not give you her ear and her eye, then go to something MUCH bigger . big enough to startle her, in order to tell her, "you should have paid attention to the little one, silly!"


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> oh my. lots of things. you can scruffle your hand on your vest to make a noise, you can cluck, you can take a step back, you can scuffle the ground, you can kiss, you can raise you hand a wave it, you can dance like a banshee . . . . anything. whatever works , BUT . . . . as little as possible , only as much as necessary.
> 
> you experiment. just don't go on and on with super tiny things hoping and begging you'll get her attention. if you do something to get her attention, and you KNOW she heard you but she does not give you her ear and her eye, then go to something MUCH bigger . big enough to startle her, in order to tell her, "you should have paid attention to the little one, silly!"


Thanks. Interesting. I asked because from all the trainers that Ive worked with so far, we all worked on keeping my mares focus on me, the method used was giving a bump in the lead so she felt it through her halter. If she doesnt listen when I ask the first time, I give a firmer bump.

Ive used stomping feet before and it always gets her attention. But usually a bump in the line is enough.

That makes me think of what I can do with her today when I go see her. We wont do the bridge again. Any ideas?


----------



## tinyliny

work on sending her away from you, like over TO the bridge, around the bridge, over to anything , over ground poles. just work on geting her to go places , like anndevkey and her horse on the long line. 

maybe experiemtne with free lunging her and getting YOUR energy up a bit. 

have fun!


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> work on sending her away from you, like over TO the bridge, around the bridge, over to anything , over ground poles. just work on geting her to go places , like anndevkey and her horse on the long line.
> 
> maybe experiemtne with free lunging her and getting YOUR energy up a bit.
> 
> have fun!


That sounds like a great idea.

Do you mean do this on line or liberty?

I was also thinking about working on more of what Painted pastures posted as well. Ill try to find the video. Fly and I have started this from the outside trainer so its the matter of keep at it. We havent done this for a couple weeks.

Here we go.



paintedpastures said:


> I am coming from having horses working in hand & showmanship. You have to give the horse proper direction utilizing the lead & your body language. It keeps horse focused on you & tells more clearly what you are asking. Hard to have that control of them with too much lead:icon_rolleyes: Know my SMS horse now could just shadow me she knows her cues from my voice & body language,they are like your dance partner. She knows when we are working & has to pay attention vs when we are just chillin . Watch some in hand trail videos you will see how they lead & are focused on handler:wink:. you have to redirect her attention back to you if she isn't focused, yes the pull pressure on the lead like you described is what you need to be doing,but be consistent in asking for her attention.:wink:
> 
> This girl has a couple videos,this is most basic & you can see what I mean about how to hold shank & giving direction with the light contact from the lead
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GqqhZkUvDw


----------



## greentree

Can I ask a question? Why do you not get that sweet woman from whom you take lessons to help you with this training?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Can I ask a question? Why do you not get that sweet woman from whom you take lessons to help you with this training?


Which woman is this? The outside trainer?


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Which woman is this? The outside trainer?


The one who does your riding lessons.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> The one who does your riding lessons.


Oh. Well, she's strictly a riding coach for me. She is not at all into liberty, yes shes into cowboy challenge but she doesnt really have the time to teach it. Plus, Im still on the fence with her as a horsemanship trainer. Her and I have very opposite opinions on many areas of horsemanship. I believe in chiro and massage, she doesnt. She claims that you should always only lead a horse away from you, I dont agree with that. She made the wrong call on the lesson saddle fitting my mare (And thats how she got sore from it, thankfully I healed her up real fast). 

She's tried to correct a bad habit of my mares before and her suggestion completely did not work. It didnt even make sense. Remember how last year i would say that my mare would often try to speed up while leading her and cut into my side? And when I would get her to yield her FQ from me, she wouldnt? Her suggestion was to get her to do two tight circles away from me. Well its never made sense to me and never worked. 

I will say one thing, this habit is still not 100% fixed yet. Unfortunately, it still exists, its cut back by a lot but every now and then my mare will still try to lead ahead of me and into my side. For instance, say Im on her left and we are leading. She sees someone interesting up ahead on our left so she will try to get half a step ahead of me and cut into my side. 

However, I think I may have found the best fix that Ive had so far to date. Theres actually two I have in mind, but Im currently still working on the first one and so far so good. Its using the carrot stick. As soon as I feel her start to get ahead, that stick in my left hand goes from idle (pointing to the ground) to horizontal on my left hip with my left arm extended. That is the first que. If she doesnt listen, then that stick gets waved in firmly 1/4 distance from where im holding it to my mares muzzle. If she still doesnt listen, then that stick comes in again but 1/2 the distance, then 3/4, then the last que is that stick gives her a firm tap on her muzzle. I still need more time to see if this is the fix though.

What's really helped with my mares leading is the exersize where you lead your horse with you standing at their shoulder, and using your inside arm you have your carrot stick across thier back. Ask them to walk with you, when they slow down, just lightly tap that stick until they get to the pace you want them then stop. While of course keep facing and walking forward. Ever try this? Its worked wonders on my mare. And sometimes I still do it when leading my mare into the barn and theres lots of distractions around. It allows me to keep my lead with a happy face, with lots of slack in it and im not dragging her along.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I wouldn't tap her on the muzzle with the carrot stick. :shock: Tapping her on the chest would be a lot more effective. I also wouldn't use the carrot stick for this, as it is really unwieldy up close (as you've seen and proven through your videos). Get yourself a decent dressage whip. You can get one for about $10 (US). Walk with it at neutral in your right hand (or pointing down and to your left across the front of your body or even in your left hand at neutral). When she starts to get ahead of you, move the whip so it's positioned in front of her chest. If she ignores the whip coming over (which she will the first time or two), tap her sharply on the chest with it. Because it has a smaller lash on it, it will sting a little more and will get your point across quite effectively with less force.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I wouldn't tap her on the muzzle with the carrot stick. :shock: Tapping her on the chest would be a lot more effective. I also wouldn't use the carrot stick for this, as it is really unwieldy up close (as you've seen and proven through your videos). Get yourself a decent dressage whip. You can get one for about $10 (US). Walk with it at neutral in your right hand (or pointing down and to your left across the front of your body or even in your left hand at neutral). When she starts to get ahead of you, move the whip so it's positioned in front of her chest. If she ignores the whip coming over (which she will the first time or two), tap her sharply on the chest with it. Because it has a smaller lash on it, it will sting a little more and will get your point across quite effectively with less force.


The reason behind tapping her on the muzzle with carrot stick is to guide her head back to where she should be. Its basically telling her to stay on her side. Do you know anyone who has used this method before? I know there arent a lot of carrot stick users on here.

I have a dressage whip, Ive used it a bit but they are so cumbersome to carry around due to the length. If you mean a smaller one, I have that too. I do think a long dressage whip could be just as effective as a carrot stick for most things. 

If I recall, I think I have used the whip on her chest before and it didnt do anything. Mind you, this was 8+ months ago at the old barn so i dont quite remember.

But right now with the carrot stick, I give her 3 ques first before that stick taps her muzzle and that rarely happens. Usually once she sees the end of the stick starting to come in towards her, she smartens up.

But really I would love nothing more than to eliminate this habit of hers for good as its become exhausting trying to diagnose it.


----------



## greentree

Ok, I did not realize she was the two circle person. 

On the mare getting ahead, just give a swift yank to slow her down. If you are still having that problem, it is impossible to do any other work that involves respect....which is ALL of it....respect is the basis. Got to get that first. Still not there.


----------



## sarahfromsc

" right now with the carrot stick, I give her 3 ques first before that stick taps her muzzle and that rarely happens. Usually once she sees the end of the stick starting to come in towards her, she smartens up."

There should not be thee cues. You are nagging, not demanding. Heck, has you are not even asking. You are nagging. When someone nags you about something, what do you do? Maybe tune them out? Fly is tuning you out.

Get her respect leading and it will boil over to all other aspects of your training of Fly.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Ok, I did not realize she was the two circle person.


Yes and its just her logic believing that horsemanship doesnt necessarily need to be taught but is automatically taught from general handling of horses. We are too different when it comes to horsemanship, we butt heads. 

She is also the person who does (cause she believes in it) lead horses 8-12" from the snap. I much prefer to lead my mare with a happy face in the lead rope (like what you saw in my videos on here). I give lots of slack so she can walk with her head lowered if she likes. If you lead with 8-12" from the snap, you are always pulling and dragging them, theres no way around it.



> On the mare getting ahead, just give a swift yank to slow her down. If you are still having that problem, it is impossible to do any other work that involves respect....which is ALL of it....respect is the basis. Got to get that first. Still not there.


Swift yank back you mean? And have us both woah or keep walking but at a lesser pace? Ive tried this before as well and she would look at me and just swing her HQ around to face me.

I mean I could always try it again, perhaps I just wasnt hard enough on her when i did it at the old barn.

The carrot stick is great but what happens if i dont have it on me. Im screwed. 

Before the carrot stick, Ive even tried turning right away to face her dead on, look at her dead in the eyes and back her up assertively for 4 or 5 steps by walking quickly towards her and even tapping her chest with the carrot stick to apply more pressure. Didnt work.

Im going to show you guys an example from a past lesson with my outside trainer where she did just this. This was a day where my mare was being a brat and constantly trying to get into her side and she used the carrot stick to keep her out while leading her.

Ill show you.


----------



## Hoofpic

Here you go.

Essentially she was teaching me to get Fly to trot with me on line when I trot, and slow down when I slow down. But Fly was being a brat this night and kept trying to get her nose onto my trainers side. You dont actually get to see get corrected in this video (She was pretty good in this video).

Sorry for the constant re-focusing. It was real dark inside.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Wow. I was thoroughly annoyed just watching that. Fly seemed annoyed, too.

When she trapped Fly between herself and the wall without enough room for her to comfortably be beside the trainer, then kind of got after her for not trotting as asked, I cringed. Fly was trying to give her what she wanted, but didn't have enough space, then got a little irritated when the trainer got after her.

Then the way she stopped and put her hand with the lead rope above her head to get Fly to back up...ummmmmmm...I have never seen anyone do that before. Maybe I just haven't been around enough NH people? :shrug: 

Yeah, my vote is DON'T use her for groundwork. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Hoofpic

I wanted to show you guys this. This is how she taught me to do join up and what exactly she wanted me to do. This was in our very first lesson.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Wow. I was thoroughly annoyed just watching that. Fly seemed annoyed, too.
> 
> When she trapped Fly between herself and the wall without enough room for her to comfortably be beside the trainer, then kind of got after her for not trotting as asked, I cringed. Fly was trying to give her what she wanted, but didn't have enough space, then got a little irritated when the trainer got after her.
> 
> Then the way she stopped and put her hand with the lead rope above her head to get Fly to back up...ummmmmmm...I have never seen anyone do that before. Maybe I just haven't been around enough NH people? :shrug:
> 
> Yeah, my vote is DON'T use her for groundwork. :icon_rolleyes:


Her reason for doing this leading and trotting along the wall is so it works on having Fly inline with you and will be quicker and easier to get her in sync with you. Then when you have this down, you can work away from the wall. 

You know all those times where she got me to lead, woah, back up Fly on the line in prepartion for doing it at liberty? Then walk and back up without woahing? It was against the wall.

The bad news is that Ive only done this with Fly on my own once since then. But the good news is that (from the last time we did it), she was getting in sync with me. So there was no or very little delay when I go from a walk forward to a sudden back up etc.

She raises her hand like that because she said she wants me to lift the reins when im in the saddle with Fly and not to pull right back because by doing that, it gives your horse a reason to go against doing what youre asking them to do. Ive noticed quite a few of the riders do this same thing as well in that big event I attended a few weeks ago. They basically lift the reins at a 45 degree angle behind their head.

I do see what you mean at 1:05 where she asks Fly to trot with her but she didnt have enough space to do so. Then the trainer tapped her HQ with the stick.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I don't mind using the wall. It was the fact that the trainer didn't give her enough space, then got after her for not doing as asked. I don't blame Fly for getting a little ****y about that.

Sorry, but my gelding is way too tall for me to be able to make your trainer's way of raising her hand work. I'd be interested to see what she does with a really tall horse. I'm 5'7" with long arms and when my gelding puts his head up, I can _barely_ reach his poll, much less get my hand up so it'll do any good.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> " right now with the carrot stick, I give her 3 ques first before that stick taps her muzzle and that rarely happens. Usually once she sees the end of the stick starting to come in towards her, she smartens up."
> 
> There should not be thee cues. You are nagging, not demanding. Heck, has you are not even asking. You are nagging. When someone nags you about something, what do you do? Maybe tune them out? Fly is tuning you out.
> 
> Get her respect leading and it will boil over to all other aspects of your training of Fly.


My initial want was wanting to give Fly a tap on her muzzle without the 3 ques, but my trainer said not to give the three ques first so it gives her a chance to react without you immediately jumping right to stage 4.

And thats why ive working working with Fly on leading. She needs to know that she has to keep up with me and she is a lot better now. Before i was never able to lead her 5 steps without having to drag her. Now i can lead her in the barn with a happy face in the lead rope


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## sarahfromsc

Well, I am usually a 'one strike and you are out' kind of old lady. Might get two depending on the circumstances.

what is a happy face in the lead rope?


----------



## natisha

tinyliny said:


> this discussion on running a horse backward harshly if they've reared up has got me wondering. I am questioning that, especially if the hrose is rearing due to balking. I know that if I was ON a hrose that reared, I would not use backing as a correction. I would try for forward, not backward. on the ground?
> if horse is balking, and they rear, h m m . . . what say you all? back up a hrose that is already thinking backward? or, ?
> 
> shank it hard would be my instinctive response. or, a swift smack on his tummy, especially if he's rearing up and presenting it.
> 
> but, here is where I know that I do not have a ton of experience with such things, just that my gut does not agree with the use of swift /harsh backing for a hrose that is rearing. agree or disagree?


That depends, as always.
I had one come in that was pushy, rushy, drove for grass,stepped on you, looked wherever he wanted, liked to drag people etc. while being lead. Maybe he was testing me or something. 
He got better in a couple of days then while leading him outside he shouldered into me & I gave him barely a swat with the back of my hand to his shoulder while still walking. He stopped, leaped all 4 feet in the air, came down & did a Lone Ranger rear. I attacked him with the end of the lead rope so fast he was afraid to come down & ended up running backwards on his hind legs until the barn stopped us. The whole thing lasted maybe a few seconds but it's what he needed. He never did that again & leads like a pro now.
I didn't make him back up, he chose that as the lesser of two evils.

On the ground & under saddle are two different scenarios.


----------



## greentree

There's that silly feeling again....almost like we have been over this before.....

6", 12", smiley face, it does not matter. The horse goes where you want , at the speed you want. It walks where you want. Sometimes, I lead my horses close. Sometimes they walk behind. Makes no difference. if they want to go too fast, I give a yank. They slow down. If I break into a run, they run along. I do not drag them, they do not run into me. 

You need to do WHATEVER it takes to get the response you want, and quit worrying about counting anything, or what anyone else TOLD you. 

The horse has to RESPOND, or the cue escalates. So you want her to go? Get your whip, hold it on the opposite side from the horse. Walk fast, say trot. With gusto. TROT!! Start jogging. If she is not coming along, swing that crop immediately at her rear end(just twist your wrist). If she is still not trotting, swing the whip with your ENTIRE arm, and be sure it makes contact with her rear. Be sure to GO when she starts trotting. Do a few steps, and stop. Do it again, a few times until she responds to the word, because she figures out if she doesn't, the whip is going to contact her rear.

You HAVE to make an impression. The impression that you MEAN what you say, and are willing to back it up with punishment. Horses have no self esteem. You do not need to worry about that.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

sarahfromsc said:


> what is a happy face in the lead rope?


AKA- A lot of slack, so it looks like a smile.


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## sarahfromsc

DraftyAiresMum said:


> AKA- A lot of slack, so it looks like a smile.



So, when I ride with a drape in my reins, those are happy reins?

Sweet Jesus.


----------



## sarahfromsc

greentree said:


> There's that silly feeling again....almost like we have been over this before.....
> 
> 6", 12", smiley face, it does not matter. The horse goes where you want , at the speed you want. It walks where you want. Sometimes, I lead my horses close. Sometimes they walk behind. Makes no difference. if they want to go too fast, I give a yank. They slow down. If I break into a run, they run along. I do not drag them, they do not run into me.
> 
> You need to do WHATEVER it takes to get the response you want, and quit worrying about counting anything, or what anyone else TOLD you.
> 
> The horse has to RESPOND, or the cue escalates. So you want her to go? Get your whip, hold it on the opposite side from the horse. Walk fast, say trot. With gusto. TROT!! Start jogging. If she is not coming along, swing that crop immediately at her rear end(just twist your wrist). If she is still not trotting, swing the whip with your ENTIRE arm, and be sure it makes contact with her rear. Be sure to GO when she starts trotting. Do a few steps, and stop. Do it again, a few times until she responds to the word, because she figures out if she doesn't, the whip is going to contact her rear.
> 
> You HAVE to make an impression. The impression that you MEAN what you say, and are willing to back it up with punishment. Horses have no self esteem. You do not need to worry about that.


I believe we have. Along with the nagging, and over drilling. Nag, drill, nag, drill, nag, drill........


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Okay I am late to the party.
@*tinyliny* , rearing to me is dealt with according to how it happened. If the horse is throwing a fit, I just stand there (so long as I'm safe) waiting for the horse to quit, kind of like "are you done?" and we continue on.
If the horse is aggressive, then I get it to move however I can until it is thinking about something else.
If the horse rears out of fear, I don't take away the fear until the horse comes back to 'earth' to deal with it.

I never back a horse when they rear unless we are initially backing up and they decide to rear. They go up because sometimes they feel stuck on going back or forwards. Backwards to me is a correction to use sparingly.
@*Hoofpic* , when MY horse is trying to walk infront of me or distracted, I quickly turn to face him and MAKE him back up. We back until he is marching backward with gusto and refocused. Then we walk again. It can range from 10-1 steps (I've found less steps are needed the more we practice). It has paid off tremendously and my horse actually enjoys the challenge of listening to my body language and voice. Makes the walk from the barn to turnout more interesting


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Also I don't like how she leads your horse. Raising the rope like that only creates a pivot point for the horse to barge into the handler.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Sorry I've missed.. Which trainer is that? The Parelli one or?


----------



## paintedpastures

That was painful to watch....well after watching those videos with your NH trainer I can see why you are having some trouble. :icon_rolleyes: The horse is not being given solid direction /cues. Agree it is more nagging ,looked more confusing & irritating to fly . Hold the horse up were you can control them & give direction!! ditch the carrot stick & don't use wall for a crutch. Only time either that may come in handy is when you're FIRST teaching a youngster to trot with you on a lead:wink:. When you are walking off get your hands up by head push/ point lead forward as you walk off,your body movement forward & cue from lead will send them forward along side you.Walk with some purpose, when time to stop say whoa & cue with lead the stop. Utilize your verbal commands with your cues,walk trot & the big one Whoa. .Mix it up, leading different directions,so you are making them think & paying attention to you for their next cue/direction. 
I see a great partnership with you & Fly, You both have quiet patient demeanor that will get you far,also Your thirst for knowledge & dedication to your horse brings a smile. You are just in need of some guidance,hard to try explain stuff in text/written form.I'm more visual with this type stuff as beyond technique much also comes from reading your horse & timing/reaction,wish I could show you:sad:


----------



## TimWhit91

Back to your horse trying to get ahead of you, I will tell you how I handle it. I lead a horse, and if I notice they are not paying attention or trying to rush ahead, I will just stop. If they keep going or run into me, I fly backwards at them like a lead mare that is going to kick the crap out of the offending horse. I don't turn to face them, just run backwards and smack the chest with a lead rope if they are slow to respond. A couple times of this and they pay attention to the crazy lady


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I don't mind using the wall. It was the fact that the trainer didn't give her enough space, then got after her for not doing as asked. I don't blame Fly for getting a little ****y about that.
> 
> Sorry, but my gelding is way too tall for me to be able to make your trainer's way of raising her hand work. I'd be interested to see what she does with a really tall horse. I'm 5'7" with long arms and when my gelding puts his head up, I can _barely_ reach his poll, much less get my hand up so it'll do any good.


I agree but ill give her the benefit of the doubt that it was just a mistake she made.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Well, I am usually a 'one strike and you are out' kind of old lady. Might get two depending on the circumstances.
> 
> what is a happy face in the lead rope?


I prefer one strick and you're out as well. Hence why 4 steps is far too much when doing a correction.

Happy face is when there is slack in the lead, it droops down a bit forming a happy face.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> There's that silly feeling again....almost like we have been over this before.....
> 
> 6", 12", smiley face, it does not matter. The horse goes where you want , at the speed you want. It walks where you want. Sometimes, I lead my horses close. Sometimes they walk behind. Makes no difference. if they want to go too fast, I give a yank. They slow down. If I break into a run, they run along. I do not drag them, they do not run into me.
> 
> You need to do WHATEVER it takes to get the response you want, and quit worrying about counting anything, or what anyone else TOLD you.
> 
> The horse has to RESPOND, or the cue escalates. So you want her to go? Get your whip, hold it on the opposite side from the horse. Walk fast, say trot. With gusto. TROT!! Start jogging. If she is not coming along, swing that crop immediately at her rear end(just twist your wrist). If she is still not trotting, swing the whip with your ENTIRE arm, and be sure it makes contact with her rear. Be sure to GO when she starts trotting. Do a few steps, and stop. Do it again, a few times until she responds to the word, because she figures out if she doesn't, the whip is going to contact her rear.
> 
> You HAVE to make an impression. The impression that you MEAN what you say, and are willing to back it up with punishment. Horses have no self esteem. You do not need to worry about that.


Sorry I dont mean to bring up this topic again. I know its been brought up before. I did this because it has yet to be addressed.

You are right, i need to do whatever it takes to get the respond that im looking for. So as far as me giving her a 4 stage que with the incoming carrot stick, it would probably be the best idea to drop that idea altogether and start from scratch. 

Trainers honestly cant figure out how to fix this bad habit, neither can I.

When you say you give your horses a yank if they try to speed up and get ahead of you while leading...is it a downward or back yank? And do you stop walking when you do it or do you keep walking but at the pace that you want? 

I would think something like a yank with back pressure on the lead and a "HEY QUIT!" should do the trick. Saying "WOAH" wouldnt make sense because im not asking her to woah at all.

Perhaps I can give this one method another go at it but im almost certain ive visited this one before and it didnt work. Let me try it again but this time with a lot more firmness and room to escalate if i need to. 

When I tapped my mare on the muzzle with the carrot stick, it worked but then she gets shocked by it that she will stop walking and come to a halt as soon as that carrot stick makes contact on her muzzle (she really doesnt like it) so then i have to get her going again. I would prefer to not have to stop walking when correcting her.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> I never back a horse when they rear unless we are initially backing up and they decide to rear. They go up because sometimes they feel stuck on going back or forwards. Backwards to me is a correction to use sparingly.
> @*Hoofpic* , when MY horse is trying to walk infront of me or distracted, I quickly turn to face him and MAKE him back up. We back until he is marching backward with gusto and refocused. Then we walk again. It can range from 10-1 steps (I've found less steps are needed the more we practice). It has paid off tremendously and my horse actually enjoys the challenge of listening to my body language and voice. Makes the walk from the barn to turnout more interesting


Thanks.

I have tried that method and it didnt work. I could escalate it each time and still didnt work. I think I tried it for two weeks.



Skyseternalangel said:


> Also I don't like how she leads your horse. Raising the rope like that only creates a pivot point for the horse to barge into the handler.


What do you mean? She normally doesnt raise the rope like that, but she was doing it to show her lead Fly through her body energy.



Rainaisabelle said:


> Sorry I've missed.. Which trainer is that? The Parelli one or?


Yes the outside trainer (Parelli).


----------



## Hoofpic

paintedpastures said:


> That was painful to watch....well after watching those videos with your NH trainer I can see why you are having some trouble. :icon_rolleyes: The horse is not being given solid direction /cues. Agree it is more nagging ,looked more confusing & irritating to fly . Hold the horse up were you can control them & give direction!! ditch the carrot stick & don't use wall for a crutch. Only time either that may come in handy is when you're FIRST teaching a youngster to trot with you on a lead:wink:. When you are walking off get your hands up by head push/ point lead forward as you walk off,your body movement forward & cue from lead will send them forward along side you.Walk with some purpose, when time to stop say whoa & cue with lead the stop. Utilize your verbal commands with your cues,walk trot & the big one Whoa. .Mix it up, leading different directions,so you are making them think & paying attention to you for their next cue/direction.


I think the biggest reason my trainer came off as undirect was because she was doing it all through body energy and very little with hands, etc. She was trying to be as light as possible.

I do agree with your comments on mixing it up with different directions so im making Fly think. When I lead a horse, im a bit cheesy cause I always give a pre-que before the actual que. So if im about to get them to WOAH, I will say "and woah"...at and I will start to soften my body language and slow my walk, and then WOAH I really soften my body language completely. 

Same when I start to lead Fly, I wont just abruptly charge off, I will draw my energy from inside me before walking (usually its me bending my knees a bit).



> I see a great partnership with you & Fly, You both have quiet patient demeanor that will get you far,also Your thirst for knowledge & dedication to your horse brings a smile. You are just in need of some guidance,hard to try explain stuff in text/written form.I'm more visual with this type stuff as beyond technique much also comes from reading your horse & timing/reaction,wish I could show you:sad:


THanks. 

Well this journal helps me greatly. Even though you guys cant show me in person, I take everything in stride and re-read posts more than once if thats what it takes for me to fully comprehend what you guys mean. But for the most part, I am on the same page as everyone here and know what I need to do. I am currently trying to run with this solo and im confident I will be okay.


----------



## Hoofpic

TimWhit91 said:


> Back to your horse trying to get ahead of you, I will tell you how I handle it. I lead a horse, and if I notice they are not paying attention or trying to rush ahead, I will just stop. If they keep going or run into me, I fly backwards at them like a lead mare that is going to kick the crap out of the offending horse. I don't turn to face them, just run backwards and smack the chest with a lead rope if they are slow to respond. A couple times of this and they pay attention to the crazy lady


I actually did think of a very similar method as you just mentioned. When you say you fly backwards, do you mean you run back or you literally jump and leap backwards towards the horse?

Because Ive done it before where I would remain facing away from Fly and flap my arms like a chicken to get Fly to back up assertively.


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## TimWhit91

Running into them backwards, you have to literally act like you are foing to kick them like a horse would. You need to draw up that negative energy and exaggerate it. So if the horse is trying to rush ahead, I just stop walking. That gives the horse a chance to do the right thing. If he doesn't, I walk backwards as fast as I can get him to move. Either wacking him in the chest if he is resistent, sometimes I just use my feet to kind of kick his feet and get sime motivation. I go simetimes 3 steps if the horse Is on his first offense, if it is more than once I keep upping the ante. I have never had to do it more than 4 times in a session before that horse really stays back and watches my movements


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## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> I actually did think of a very similar method as you just mentioned. When you say you fly backwards, do you mean you run back or you literally jump and leap backwards towards the horse?
> 
> Because Ive done it before where I would remain facing away from Fly and flap my arms like a chicken to get Fly to back up assertively.


Same dif. 

What you describe and what timwhit describe are the same thing, from the horses point of view. Whatever works to make them want ro back away.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> I prefer one strick and you're out as well. Hence why 4 steps is far too much when doing a correction.
> 
> Happy face is when there is slack in the lead, it droops down a bit forming a happy face.


 What fresh hell is this? I think I have to be done, we are going in circles. Until you learn to be present, you will never be in charge with this horse. You are so hung up on terms and ideas that you continue to fail to grasp the basics. I think you need to concentrate on riding, quit worrying about how you hold a lead rope, or playing with that silly stick and string.
I get that you want to be soft, but you have to understand this one concept that no one can seem to get across to you, so I am going to just bluntly say it. You *must be firm.* Being firm doesn't mean abusive, it means there is a line that she cant cross without being swiftly corrected. You don't have that. You nag, as someone says. The fact that she seems to be a pretty chilled out pony is the only reason you accomplish anything.
I wish you all the best, I hope you find whatever the hell it is you are looking for, because 80 plus pages later, I still don't know (and I don't think you really do either), what it is.


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## bsms

I had no idea leading a horse involved so much technique. Nor do I understand in what sense having slack in the lead rope is a "happy face", or why holding the lead rope up in the air is supposed to mean "stop". None of the horses I've owned have ever known that, either.

_"This search for significant meanings where none are to be found recalls the reply made by Sigmund Freud to overzealous disciples who felt that there must be a significant meaning behind his cigar smoking. 

__ “*Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar*..."_

_ Sometimes a Cigar Is Just a Cigar | Quote Investigator_​


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## natisha

I may use the "happy face" lead rope the next time I teach a 5 year old kid.


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## cbar

I'm not sure I understand how leading a horse became such a big deal? Who cares if there is 8", a 'happy face' or what not in the lead shank. As long as the horse willingly goes from point A to point B with no issues.....I just don't see the big deal. YES, there are incorrect ways to lead a horse, but this is just nit-picking something so nominal. 

I would never strike a horse in the face/muzzle (unless they REALLY deserved it)....in my opinion this is a way to train a horse to be head shy. I especially wouldn't do it with a long/unwieldy stick. That just doesn't make sense to me. 

There is a lot of knowledge on this forum....I think Hoofpics problem is that he is confused as to what kind of horseman he wants to be. I think he is drawn to the NH/liberty stuff, but a lot of the training advise (mine included) conflicts with NH training. Decide what works for you, Hoofpic. Otherwise you will end up confusing the crap out of your mare AND yourself.


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## tinyliny

TimWhit91 said:


> Running into them backwards, you have to literally act like you are foing to kick them like a horse would. You need to draw up that negative energy and exaggerate it. So if the horse is trying to rush ahead, I just stop walking. That gives the horse a chance to do the right thing. If he doesn't, I walk backwards as fast as I can get him to move. Either wacking him in the chest if he is resistent, sometimes I just use my feet to kind of kick his feet and get sime motivation. I go simetimes 3 steps if the horse Is on his first offense, if it is more than once I keep upping the ante. I have never had to do it more than 4 times in a session before that horse really stays back and watches my movements


I use this a lot when I am out in the pasture wanting to hang out with or feed or work with one horse only, and some other horse keeps trying to horn in. I'll turn my hind end toward it, bend over a little, so my hind is really pointing AT them , and I have the leadrope bunched in my hand, which I hold back on top of my big butt, just where a tail would sprout if I were an angry mare. Then I start swishing that rope tail vigorously (staring slow and building to a rough shake) just how a mare does when she's saying "watch out! I'm gonna kick you!" And I star backing TOWARD the horse I want to drive off. Works every time.


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## Hoofpic

TimWhit91 said:


> Running into them backwards, you have to literally act like you are foing to kick them like a horse would. You need to draw up that negative energy and exaggerate it. So if the horse is trying to rush ahead, I just stop walking. That gives the horse a chance to do the right thing. If he doesn't, I walk backwards as fast as I can get him to move. Either wacking him in the chest if he is resistent, sometimes I just use my feet to kind of kick his feet and get sime motivation. I go simetimes 3 steps if the horse Is on his first offense, if it is more than once I keep upping the ante. I have never had to do it more than 4 times in a session before that horse really stays back and watches my movements


Makes sense. You know what? I think this is my new experiment starting today. So technically when you adruptly get them to woah, that is essentially giving the horses a chance to start backing up and getting back to where they should be next to you, without having you go backwards on them.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> What fresh hell is this? I think I have to be done, we are going in circles. Until you learn to be present, you will never be in charge with this horse. You are so hung up on terms and ideas that you continue to fail to grasp the basics. I think you need to concentrate on riding, quit worrying about how you hold a lead rope, or playing with that silly stick and string.
> I get that you want to be soft, but you have to understand this one concept that no one can seem to get across to you, so I am going to just bluntly say it. You *must be firm.* Being firm doesn't mean abusive, it means there is a line that she cant cross without being swiftly corrected. You don't have that. You nag, as someone says. The fact that she seems to be a pretty chilled out pony is the only reason you accomplish anything.
> I wish you all the best, I hope you find whatever the hell it is you are looking for, because 80 plus pages later, I still don't know (and I don't think you really do either), what it is.


Trust me, I know I need to be firm. Firm and consistent. Its always on my mind

Im not being abusive with Fly (unless you consider a firm tap on the muzzle with the end of the carrot stick to be that).


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## whisperbaby22

Well I want to come on here and commend Hoofpik. I think we can all agree that that is a beautiful little mare, always well groomed, and so what if Hoofpik wants to lead her a certain way. He is incredibly diligent, and eventually he'll find his way.


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## tinyliny

every single idea that folks have been raising, and even the Parelli teacher's idea, is really about GETTING THE HORSE'S ATTENTION.

when the horse walks into you while being lead, she is not paying attention. if you were a higher ranking horse, she would be constantly paying attention becuase to NOT pay attention would get her kicked or bit. 
so, when she is blahing into you, you do anything that gets her attention. ok. raise the line? swing a stick, shush the rope at her, slap your thigh, whatever. it makes her stop and go, "What?!" 

now, you have her attention. ask her to back up. firmly.

next time you are walking along, you don't wait so long to re-catch her attention. if you see even a hint of it wandering away, do something to get her attention back.

when I am leading a horse, i have my hand out to the side, and a tiny bit in front of me. it is my 'wall'. if the horse's nose gets too close to that wall, usually just a bit of wiggle of the rope, will remind them of that barrier, and they will slow, and fall back again. if they keep getting too close, I can lift my hand and bop them under the chin.

this is a Warwick Shiller thing:
another way to teach a horse to not crowd up on you is to lead them like I said, with the hand out as your 'wall', and if the hrose goes past that wall, you just quickly, and somewhat aggressively, spin (away from teh horse) and change directions and you walk off the new direction quickly and firmly. the hrose will get a surprise pull on the halter, and she'll have to hustle to catch back up to you


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## Hoofpic

whisperbaby22 said:


> Well I want to come on here and commend Hoofpik. I think we can all agree that that is a beautiful little mare, always well groomed, and so what if Hoofpik wants to lead her a certain way. He is incredibly diligent, and eventually he'll find his way.


Thank you. But I know I need to step up when the time calls for my mare and show her im that leader. I know i am and can be, I feel it inside me.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Thank you. But I know I need to step up when the time calls for my mare and show her im that leader. I know i am and can be, I feel it inside me.


I think Hoofpic needs "that moment." You know, that moment when the horse does something that forces you to react and respond bigger than you normally would. I think that would give him that *push* he needs to really get the concept of a firm, appropriate correction and realize that all this analyzing and wishy-washy is not doing him any favors.

I'll share my "moment."

It was with my old gelding. I was leading him down the aisle between the large outdoor stalls at our first barn (20'x40' outside permanent pipe stalls with shades). It was breezy, but not anything to write home about. We were about 2/3 of the way down the aisle (so maybe 20ft from the end of the stalls...his stall was one of the last ones) when suddenly a LEAF blew across our path. Now, heretofore, I had been very passive in my corrections of him. When that leaf blew across our path, he absolutely FREAKED and literally tried to climb up my shoulder to get away. I didn't think out how to correct him. I reacted. That reaction was shanking him back down the length of the aisle, which was a good 80ft. His butt hit the fence at the end of the aisle, we stood there looking at each other for a second (not sure who was the more surprised, him or me :icon_rolleyes: ), then I turned around and walked away like nothing had happened. After that day, I never had another problem leading him ever, even when he'd get hyped up and just want to bolt. There was no carrot stick involved (heck, I didn't even know what one was). There was no "If he does this, I must respond this way." It was pure, 100% reaction.

That's what Hoofpic needs. We can lecture him and preach to him until we're blue in the face, but unless and until he's faced with that "do or die" moment, none of it is really going to sink in or really going to matter. When it comes to an 800lbs animal or his well-being, he'll "get it" and react accordingly. I think until that happens, we're just barking at the wind.


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## tinyliny

real fear brings out backbone in some, others run.


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## DraftyAiresMum

tinyliny said:


> real fear brings out backbone in some, others run.


I have a feeling that Hoofpic wouldn't run. I'm not sure what makes me say that, but that's just the vibe I get. :shrug:

Like I said, unless and until something like that happens, I don't think anything of what we're saying is truly going to sink in.


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## KigerQueen

here is Clinto showing how to start liberty work.






watch this one. here is is working with a brumby stallion. never been handled and he erns the horses respect in 1 session. he shows from wild to saddles on his youtube channel.


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## Rainaisabelle

DraftyAiresMum said:


> tinyliny said:
> 
> 
> 
> real fear brings out backbone in some, others run.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a feeling that Hoofpic wouldn't run. I'm not sure what makes me say that, but that's just the vibe I get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, unless and until something like that happens, I don't think anything of what we're saying is truly going to sink in.
Click to expand...

I get that vibe as well... 

I agree with what you said. Sometimes it takes our safety or someone else's to be put in danger to make us have a back bone!

Hoof pic you need to be in the moment don't expect anything from your horse but don't be complacent. Action = reaction


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## EmilyJoy

These videos may give you a visual on training your horse on obstacles. 











Clinton Anderson, if you can get past all the advertisement, is really great at explaining things really well, and he doesn't beat around the bush as much as a lot of others I have watched. Larry Trocha, and Warwick Schiller are other awesome trainers to look up and go over and over and over what they do and how they train their horses. The more black and white you are with your horse the better off you will be. I could never get into Parelli, I think the guy himself originally could train horses, but what it has turned into really turned me off.


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## Hoofpic

My coach said that I had my best lesson on Fly to date. She lunged Fly with me on her back doing 10m circles to work on my form. 

Horses are moody today cause of the weather and a full moon is coming so it was great to ride to Fly even when she had so much energy and i had to work on controlling her pace and slowing her trot down.

That one lesson where i rode her and she was so fast out of the gate, it was great for me to experience it so early on cause today according to my trainer she had an even faster trot today and I handled it a lot bettrr and was more confident. Honestly, I didnt even notice her having a faster trot today. I got on her and felt so comfortable on her.
I was in rythtm with her and Drafty! Im now posting as soon as she i ask her to trot. No more delay! I think shes happier.

Cant wait to show you guys.


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## palogal

Please STOP BEGGING this mare to do something. When she was a baby was the time for all this fiddle-farting around on the ground. Work with your riding coach and RIDE the horse.


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## Hoofpic

I will reply to some posts later.

I have some bad news. The D ring snaffle is a no go. Fly doesnt approve so we went back to the original loose ring bit.

Now i have a $175 bit sitting here that i cant get my money back.

Trainer said that the clinics are great but not to fall for everything. Obviously, clinicians are there to sell and will try to sell everything to me.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I will reply to some posts later.
> 
> I have some bad news. The D ring snaffle is a no go. Fly doesnt approve so we went back to the original loose ring bit.
> 
> Now i have a $175 bit sitting here that i cant get my money back.


Sell it. You only used it once, so you can clean it up and sell it for $140. Yes, you're out $35, but that's better than being out $175.

This is why I won't buy expensive bits until I KNOW my horse likes the cheap version. I can't afford to spend big money on something that may or may not work. I got my current bit for $40, shipped, and my gelding loves it.


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## elle1959

Hoofpic said:


> Now i have a $175 bit sitting here that i cant get my money back.


Put it on ebay at a fair price and you will most likely get most of it back.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Trainer said that the clinics are great but not to fall for everything. Obviously, clinicians are there to sell and will try to sell everything to me.


Somehow I remember someone (or several people) saying this exact same thing...multiple times on multiple of your threads. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Sell it. You only used it once, so you can clean it up and sell it for $140. Yes, you're out $35, but that's better than being out $175.
> 
> This is why I won't buy expensive bits until I KNOW my horse likes the cheap version. I can't afford to spend big money on something that may or may not work. I got my current bit for $40, shipped, and my gelding loves it.


Im going to see where i can sell it, i dont use ebay.

I knew i shouldnt have bought it. Stupid me.




DraftyAiresMum said:


> Somehow I remember someone (or several people) saying this exact same thing...multiple times on multiple of your threads. :icon_rolleyes:


But i didnt know before the clinic. Its a valuable lesson that i learned.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I have a feeling that Hoofpic wouldn't run. I'm not sure what makes me say that, but that's just the vibe I get. :shrug:
> 
> Like I said, unless and until something like that happens, I don't think anything of what we're saying is truly going to sink in.


It will sink in, I want to prove to yout that I can do it. You are right, the moment just hasnt come yet but it will and when it does, it will be a big weight off my shoulders.

Being with the outside trainer obviously didnt help because she always preached lightness and she wouldnt ever dare smack a horse. She doesnt believe in that. So its good i got rid of her and can discover this next gear (in me) that im referring to. I know i have it in me, ive come along ways in becoming more firm and assertive (all the way from being far too soft) on Fly


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## DraftyAiresMum

You can still achieve lightness, but until you can be as firm as needed, WHEN it's needed, lightness will continue to elude you.

There's a difference between the way you are now and true lightness. Where you're at right now, you don't have the correct timing or feel. You're overthinking it and trying too hard for perfection. Let instinct take over. I hardly ever think when correcting my horse. You have a three second window in which to correct a horse and it make an effect. Three seconds is NOT enough time to think it through.

When I got after my gelding for trying to climb up my shoulder because of a leaf, I didn't think. I reacted and let instinct take over. My instinct told me how big was big enough based on how my gelding reacted. 

That's why I said that you need to have a "moment." It would FORCE you to not think, but react. That will do more for your timing and feel than ANYTHING any trainer or Internet forum can try to tell you.


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## egrogan

As a horse owner and tack buyer, you want to use eBay. You will definitely appreciate it for tack!


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## cbar

Put the bit on Kijiji. There are also consignment stores in Calgary that will sell it for you.


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## tinaev

There are numerous Facebook groups for used tack, I belong to one specifically dedicated to used bits. You'll definitely be able to sell your bit and get some of your money back.


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## Hoofpic

Thanks guys. I will put the bit up on Kijiji and look around to other places. Its too bad I bought it in the first place, regret it 

I felt different when riding fly today. It was a great feeling. I felt much more comfortable and things felt natural today for the first time. I felt rythym, i felt softness in fly and me in tge saddle.

It was a bit rough at first when on Fly doing a trot on a 10m circle but i settled in and i think my coach is right, its definitely my best lesson so far and she said it was a huge improvement from last lesson.


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## KigerQueen

as i said i dont fallow CA like its a religion (and i know a few who do) but there IS one thing he can teach you. timing. he shows you when to release and how big to get. i lent SOOO much just from watching a few episodes of his show. i have fantastic timing with ground work now because he tells you "there see how he did ____. when he dose that release at that exact moment". With CA everything is Black and White. non of this 4 steps of nagging or "porcupine" nonsense. he says move and the horse better move.


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## EmilyJoy

I agree with the above, but on the other hand for someone who gets confused easily or misled, if you follow his course step by step you _will _probably get where you would like to be. Eventually you'll be able to pick and choose from different trainers what you like and incorporate it into what works for you.

I love a saying of C.A.'s "*Get the job done,* do it as easy/gentle as possible but as firm as necessary." The punishment should fit the crime. Another saying is, "where knowledge ends, frustration begins." So balance between getting knowledge and getting the job done.  Forget piddling around when the horse clearly could be moved up to a more challenging "level".


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

EmilyJoy said:


> Forget piddling around when the horse clearly could be moved up to a more challenging "level".


While I agree IF the handler is advanced enough, if the handler is not ready to move up to a more challenging level, it can create a lot of issues. We always harp on not rushing the horse, but I think not rushing the handler is as big of a problem. This is why it's always best for someone new to horses to learn everything they can on a BTDT, well-trained horse, rather than trying to train the horse while they are being trained themselves. The handler can then focus on learning how it FEELS to have a horse respond correctly.

I think I just hit a major point of the issues with Hoofpic and Fly. He doesn't know how it feels for the horse to respond correctly to his requests, so when Fly _does_ respond correctly, Hoofpic doesn't recognize it as the correct response and keeps asking. This leads to Fly becoming irritated, disinterested and shutting down. 

Yet again, another argument for "green plus green equals black and blue." Not necessarily literally in this case, but still...


----------



## Hoofpic

KigerQueen said:


> as i said i dont fallow CA like its a religion (and i know a few who do) but there IS one thing he can teach you. timing. he shows you when to release and how big to get. i lent SOOO much just from watching a few episodes of his show. i have fantastic timing with ground work now because he tells you "there see how he did ____. when he dose that release at that exact moment". With CA everything is Black and White. non of this 4 steps of nagging or "porcupine" nonsense. he says move and the horse better move.


Can you tell me which shows you watched of his? You dont beieve in the porcupine game? Lol


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## DraftyAiresMum

The "porcupine game" is a strictly Parelli thing and the majority of people on this forum don't practice or like Parelli.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> The "porcupine game" is a strictly Parelli thing and the majority of people on this forum don't practice or like Parelli.


I know, it was just a joke 

Parelli (and Parelli trainers) can say all he/they want about how you will have a much lighter and willing horse when Parelli taught. Im not so sure about that.

For instance liberty training is not Parelli. 

Guys, Im going to give the stop, then run backwards at Fly while doing the chicken dance correction a shot and see how it works.

When you say run at Fly, you mean literally run right? I have a good feeling this will work on her.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Sorry. Running on about four hours of sleep, I've been at work for 13 hours already (only three more to go), and I've already worked 65 hours this week (will be 76 hours by the time the week is over).


----------



## TimWhit91

Hoofpic, I love how eager you are to learn. I want you to get your horse out. Forget about everything you have been taught. Walk around the property and just find random things to lead fly around, over, on, whatever. Safe things. Just watch her ears and head. If she is relaxed and following you with her head down, don't make her stop and sniff things, just keep going. If she loses focus, randomly stop. If she doesn't stop with you, run backwards like I said. Keep doing that until she pays attention to your every move. She will start to stop as soon as you stop, back up when you back up. You won't need to touch the lead rope and you will learn to time things better. Get that horse out to see things, she has a great mind on her.


----------



## KigerQueen

witch shows you referring to? Ca or pat? i have seen several CA and seen him in person. have had the opportunity to work with him in person. Parelli i have seen enough of him and his work to be satisfied. i used to watch alot of his shows on RFD TV. my friend trains a mix of parelli, T Ttouch and what ever life has taught her. 3 years YEARS of ground work!!! im sorry but people with the extreme mustang challenge can train a solid horse in 100 days. Ca just wants you to get respect and to get on the damin thing. if you get bucked off you messed up somewhere so start over and see where you missed. fix it and try again.


----------



## Hoofpic

TimWhit91 said:


> Hoofpic, I love how eager you are to learn. I want you to get your horse out. Forget about everything you have been taught. Walk around the property and just find random things to lead fly around, over, on, whatever. Safe things. Just watch her ears and head. If she is relaxed and following you with her head down, don't make her stop and sniff things, just keep going. If she loses focus, randomly stop. If she doesn't stop with you, run backwards like I said. Keep doing that until she pays attention to your every move. She will start to stop as soon as you stop, back up when you back up. You won't need to touch the lead rope and you will learn to time things better. Get that horse out to see things, she has a great mind on her.


Okay I will do that tomorrow.

I will say though as of right now, she is actaully very good in woahing when i just stop. This is how I can tell if she is paying attention to me or not.

I always watch her head and see where it is and if its looking elsewhere or lowered to the ground every time Im leading her (I see in my perpherial vision). A lot of times she will lower her head when walking with me (which is good!)


----------



## Hoofpic

My ride from yesterday.

This is the first time that Ive been on my any horse trotting on a 10m circle so it was a completely new challenge for me. But I feel I got better as time went on. According to my trainer my mare had an even faster trot yesterday than she did that one day (believe it was the 2nd lesson), except this time I wasnt bothered or thrown off by it at all. In fact I didnt even notice it (and IMO this is a very good sign). If it wasnt for my coach mentioning this to me, I wouldnt have known. Fly had a lot of energy yesterday (mostly from the weather change and a full moon is coming, so all the horses have been on edge the past couple days.

I feel a lot more comfortable on Fly now. Things started to really sink in yesterday and feel natural. I felt this exact same feeling on the lesson mare when I rode her (believe it was my 4th or 5th lesson on her) where things started to really sink in.

When I say things are sinking in, what I mean is I feel softer in the saddle, lighter, Im not thinking nearly as much, Im more relaxed. Coach was really happy with how the lesson went. My timing (as far as not letting Fly stop and keep her trotting) is coming, its getting better. Im starting to pick up on things quicker and reacting quicker.


----------



## EmilyJoy

DraftyAiresMum said:


> While I agree IF the handler is advanced enough, if the handler is not ready to move up to a more challenging level, it can create a lot of issues. We always harp on not rushing the horse, but I think not rushing the handler is as big of a problem. This is why it's always best for someone new to horses to learn everything they can on a BTDT, well-trained horse, rather than trying to train the horse while they are being trained themselves. The handler can then focus on learning how it FEELS to have a horse respond correctly.
> 
> I think I just hit a major point of the issues with Hoofpic and Fly. He doesn't know how it feels for the horse to respond correctly to his requests, so when Fly _does_ respond correctly, Hoofpic doesn't recognize it as the correct response and keeps asking. This leads to Fly becoming irritated, disinterested and shutting down.
> 
> Yet again, another argument for "green plus green equals black and blue." Not necessarily literally in this case, but still...


 I absolutely agree, but I saw a lot of his comments on how "I don't think she is ready for this", and "I don't want to rush her" etc. When really the rider is not ready for this.
 Most of the groundwork IS for the rider, and not so much for the horse. He's got to get to the point where he is actually _seeing_ his horse, as far as reading her body language. I wonder if he would watch some of C.A.'s videos of training really aggressive horses, the exaggerated form of what Fly is doing, would he be better able to clue in? You know, like the saying "exaggerate to teach, refine as you go along"... Anyway just a thought.


----------



## Hoofpic

Sorry there is about 5 mins of the end of the lesson that didnt get recorded (the joys of having a 30min time limit on NON video cameras bylaw here in Canada). I might switch to my video camera for lessons here on simply cause i wont have this 30min time limit and I can get a wider angle so you will be able to see the entire arena. I will do this for you guys.

Its very annoying because my last 5 mins was argably my best in my lesson yesterday and was hoping to have you guys see it.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

EmilyJoy said:


> I absolutely agree, but I saw a lot of his comments on how "I don't think she is ready for this", and "I don't want to rush her" etc. When really the rider is not ready for this.
> Most of the groundwork IS for the rider, and not so much for the horse. He's got to get to the point where he is actually _seeing_ his horse, as far as reading her body language. I wonder if he would watch some of C.A.'s videos of training really aggressive horses, the exaggerated form of what Fly is doing, would he be better able to clue in? You know, like the saying "exaggerate to teach, refine as you go along"... Anyway just a thought.


LOL! I think we're saying exactly the same thing. A few pages back (don't want to bother finding it :lol:  ), I said the exact same thing about how he puts a lot of his insecurities with trying something off on Fly instead of owning it. The sooner he can say (and realize) "I'm not sure about this," the better of he'll be.

I think watching CA would maybe be a good idea, just to get an idea, but something tells me that at this point, he's going to find CA a little over the top and aggressive for his tastes. BUT, as you said, maybe the exaggeration will help him SEE what to do in a more obvious manner. :thumbsup:


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> LOL! I think we're saying exactly the same thing. A few pages back (don't want to bother finding it :lol:  ), I said the exact same thing about how he puts a lot of his insecurities with trying something off on Fly instead of owning it. The sooner he can say (and realize) "I'm not sure about this," the better of he'll be.
> 
> I think watching CA would maybe be a good idea, just to get an idea, but something tells me that at this point, he's going to find CA a little over the top and aggressive for his tastes. BUT, as you said, maybe the exaggeration will help him SEE what to do in a more obvious manner. :thumbsup:


I dont find CA at all aggressive. Infact some of the best quotes that I have on the back of my mind was from reading his book. "The fundamentals of horsemanship" I think its called.

I would love to see his DVDs or whichever ones you guys are referring to.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I dont find CA at all aggressive. Infact some of the best quotes that I have on the back of my mind was from reading his book. "The fundamentals of horsemanship" I think its called.
> 
> I would love to see his DVDs or whichever ones you guys are referring to.


I have some of his VHS tapes somewhere. No idea which ones, but I think they're Gaining Respect on the Ground or something like that. Bought them at Goodwill for $.99 each. They're from back before he was really commercialized. :icon_rolleyes:

I just like how straightforward he is. No dinking around. You just get in and go. Chris Cox is another one I like. Again, very straightforward. No games to learn, no pre-cues. You do what you need to do with the horse to make it listen and be respectful.


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## Skyseternalangel

Get a video recorder for you, not us.


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## KigerQueen

you can find ALOT just from his youtube channel. he is also documenting his training of his gunner babie and turning him into a reining horse. he has 3 1 hour vids up on it so far. i also was given his dvds as well. have not watched them yet though as i skimmed them and i honestly know the beginning fundamentals witch is where i was with odie and im a little more advanced with my mare.

here is a link to his youtube itsellf. its all online so not paying or downloading required 

https://www.youtube.com/user/DUHorseman


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## Rainaisabelle

I watched a small amount of your video and you looked slightly unsteady and a bit out of rhythm but I'm sure that will come in with more riding. Good on you


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I watched a small amount of your video and you looked slightly unsteady and a bit out of rhythm but I'm sure that will come in with more riding. Good on you


Thanks. But you need to watch most if not all of it cause I really settled in nicely as the lesson went on. It was a big improvement from my past lesson and things have really started to feel natural for me on Fly in terms of my balance.


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## Hoofpic

KigerQueen said:


> you can find ALOT just from his youtube channel. he is also documenting his training of his gunner babie and turning him into a reining horse. he has 3 1 hour vids up on it so far. i also was given his dvds as well. have not watched them yet though as i skimmed them and i honestly know the beginning fundamentals witch is where i was with odie and im a little more advanced with my mare.
> 
> here is a link to his youtube itsellf. its all online so not paying or downloading required
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/user/DUHorseman


Thanks  I will check it out. I have seen some of CA videos so im not completely new to his teaching style. He is much different than Parelli.



DraftyAiresMum said:


> I have some of his VHS tapes somewhere. No idea which ones, but I think they're Gaining Respect on the Ground or something like that. Bought them at Goodwill for $.99 each. They're from back before he was really commercialized. :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> I just like how straightforward he is. No dinking around. You just get in and go. Chris Cox is another one I like. Again, very straightforward. No games to learn, no pre-cues. You do what you need to do with the horse to make it listen and be respectful.


Thanks. I have heard the name Chris Cox as well, not sure where though.


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## ChristineNJ

Well, I just watched the video of the "Bridge". First of all I was picturing a long country Bridge in the forest with lots of trees and running water just beneath it! Then I saw your "Bridge".....LOL.....not what I was picturing. Second of all (as other members mentioned & you finally realized) she should have been led over the "bridge" first and not stopped in the middle of the "bridge". And lastly, I would have approached from the other side which would have given her more time to study the "bridge" and more time to turn around towards its. You are making her turn so quick she doesn't have time to look where she is going. And one more thing, I think you have to be more assertive and sure of yourself when asking her to follow you. You were not "being a strong leader" in this video. :wink::gallop:


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## Prairie

You may think that you became more steady and in rhythm with Fly at the end of the video, but you really weren't. You were still all over the saddle, popping the mare in the face at each stride. You need to relax your hips and feel what her body is doing, staying in "tune" if you will so she's not fighting to stay balanced under you. 


LOL, how many pages did the discussion of leading cover! I'm pretty sure Fly knows how to be led, but until the man on the other end of the lead rope recognizes that's he's over-thinking this, there will be no improvement. When I have a horse who's easily distracted, the secret is to mix up the cues and directions when leading so he has to pay attention to avoid a correction----no need to pop the lead rope or whatever if you just change direction and the horse gets an automatic "pop" from not paying attention by going straight and doesn't making the change with you. Even our ADHD goofball gelding figured out on the first leading lesson he better pay attention to where the handler was if he didn't want a correction.


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## Hoofpic

Well Prairie I disagree with you. Im feeling more confident and my coach said i took a bit step.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie, I will be working on this with Fly in the next couple days. I was just about to tackle it but then I brought in my outside trainer and I put it off. But I think it would pay off. 

Must have watched this video 8 or 9 times to know exactly what to do and pick up little details. Also one of the demonstrations that Warwick did at the clinic a month ago was on this exact thing.


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## egrogan

^^Nice looking horse in the video, but it has nothing to do with a secure seat while trotting? (And what was with the bizarre analogy about women controlling their husbands??)

Anyway, I do think you're improving, but please keep your humbleness about you. You're in a bit of a "you don't know what you don't know" situation here. I think lunge lessons are great for you as you develop your seat, but you are still bouncy on Fly's back and not yet centered in the saddle. And that's ok! These types of lessons will help you continue to get better, and develop that confidence that you are moving <i>with</i> your horse.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> ^^Nice looking horse in the video, but it has nothing to do with a secure seat while trotting? (And what was with the bizarre analogy about women controlling their husbands??)
> 
> Anyway, I do think you're improving, but please keep your humbleness about you. You're in a bit of a "you don't know what you don't know" situation here. I think lunge lessons are great for you as you develop your seat, but you are still bouncy on Fly's back and not yet centered in the saddle. And that's ok! These types of lessons will help you continue to get better, and develop that confidence that you are moving <i>with</i> your horse.


That was the very first time I was on any horse trotting on 10m circles and the first time I was put on a line trotting on Fly. It was new to me.

But I know that I am moving ahead and noticably more confident in the saddle and my positioning and balance is coming along nicely. 

That video is for reactive horses. Warwick makes a very good point.

Today I didnt do much with Fly cause its been pouring all day, but when I lead her, if she is looking away and her focus isnt on me, I just give a light bump on the line to get her focus back on me.


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## egrogan

Do you consider Fly to be a reactive horse?


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Do you consider Fly to be a reactive horse?


Yes I do but she has gotten better over the past month. I got her comfortable walking past the parked trailer now. She used to always be on edge when walking past it each time into the barn.

Theres a young 3 year old gelding (very cute) who is here for a couple months for training so he is in the isolation paddock (Fly use to be in it), and each time we walk by he comes running up to the fence wanting to say hi to Fly. Well Fly sees and turns her head to look. I give her a light bump on the lead to get her focus back on me. I make sure she doesnt slow down, I keep walking. 

You see, when I arrived at this barn, my current riding coach gave me a piece of advice. She said that when she leads any horse, she doesnt let that horse even turn their head to look anywhere. She keeps her peripheral eye on them and if she sees that head turn to look to the side, she gives a light nudge on the lead to get their focus back on them. 

She said that she wants the horses head to be only in one position and thats forward and straight ahead. When she told me this, I always thought this was micro managing. But right now, I think differently. What are your thoughts?


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## greentree

As, usual, you are taking one little, tiny tidbit , and turning it into a giant revelation. 

Just walk the horse where you want to go. If she bumps into you, or pulls back on you, or goes in the opposite direction, deal with it accordingly. 

Otherwise, leading a horse through a carnival should not be THIS difficult.

We have seen absolutely nothing reactive about Fly....


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## EliRose

If Fly was even a quarter as reactive as that Warmblood (who honestly didn't seem to be too bad), I don't think your trainer would even let you sit on her. The Fly we've seen in your videos is a mare that simply doesn't care, or at worst feeds off of her novice handler. If she was reactive and you were bumping her in the mouth like you do, she wouldn't just take it. You've likely never handled a horse that was even on the muscle, let alone truly reactive.


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## Hoofpic

From today. The jumps were still up from yesterday so I figured why not walk Fly over them a couple times.


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## DraftyAiresMum

EliRose said:


> If Fly was even a quarter as reactive as that Warmblood (who honestly didn't seem to be too bad), I don't think your trainer would even let you sit on her. The Fly we've seen in your videos is a mare that simply doesn't care, or at worst feeds off of her novice handler. If she was reactive and you were bumping her in the mouth like you do, she wouldn't just take it. You've likely never handled a horse that was even on the muscle, let alone truly reactive.


Couldn't agree with this more!!

Looking at a horse coming up to greet her makes her reactive? Being looky at a trailer makes her reactive?

If that's reactive, what the hell was my old gelding, who literally tried to climb on top of me because a freaking LEAF blew across our path?! :shock:

Fly is anything BUT reactive. She might be slightly more looky than my gelding now, but all in all, she seems pretty chill. I'd hate you have to deal with a truly reactive horse. You'd likely be in the hospital by now.

A reactive horse is the young TB gelding at my old barn who would rear, spin, bolt, and generally just freak out every time he was led past the big poop dumpster that was always in the same place all the time. :icon_rolleyes:


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> From today. The jumps were still up from yesterday so I figured why not walk Fly over them a couple times.
> 
> http://youtu.be/9e3xmFfgB2A


That was really good! :clap: Nice, easy, calm. You just DID IT. No stopping to let her think, no negotiations. You led, she followed. Now, do what you did there on your bridge.

Fly is super cute. With the right training, I could see her being a super cute little kid's hunter pony. :lol:


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> If Fly was even a quarter as reactive as that Warmblood (who honestly didn't seem to be too bad), I don't think your trainer would even let you sit on her. The Fly we've seen in your videos is a mare that simply doesn't care, or at worst feeds off of her novice handler. If she was reactive and you were bumping her in the mouth like you do, she wouldn't just take it. You've likely never handled a horse that was even on the muscle, let alone truly reactive.


Fly cares, she gets easily distracted all the time.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Couldn't agree with this more!!
> 
> Looking at a horse coming up to greet her makes her reactive? Being looky at a trailer makes her reactive?
> 
> If that's reactive, what the hell was my old gelding, who literally tried to climb on top of me because a freaking LEAF blew across our path?! :shock:
> 
> Fly is anything BUT reactive. She might be slightly more looky than my gelding now, but all in all, she seems pretty chill. I'd hate you have to deal with a truly reactive horse. You'd likely be in the hospital by now.
> 
> A reactive horse is the young TB gelding at my old barn who would rear, spin, bolt, and generally just freak out every time he was led past the big poop dumpster that was always in the same place all the time. :icon_rolleyes:


Fly is a lot better now from over a month ago. The outside trainer really helped make her less reactive. Remember the porta potty where the kids from last winter threw snowballs at it with me and Fly standing on the other side and she completely spooked? Well shes never been comfortably walking past the porta potty since then.

It wasnt just her looking, but her slowing down her pace as we approach it. But it seems I have gotten rid of it, or at least drastically minimized it. How did I do it? By doing those excersizes where I would lead her with my carrot stick on her back (just past her withers), face forward as if the stick wasnt there and when she is at the pace I want her at, and where I want her next to me, I let the stick sit on her back. If she slows down, I lightly tap her until she picks it up again.

WHen I lead her, I want my shoulder just behind her cheeks. I remember the outside trainer said this was too close and she wanted me to lead Fly with me at her barrel.



DraftyAiresMum said:


> That was really good! :clap: Nice, easy, calm. You just DID IT. No stopping to let her think, no negotiations. You led, she followed. Now, do what you did there on your bridge.
> 
> Fly is super cute. With the right training, I could see her being a super cute little kid's hunter pony. :lol:


Thanks. I plan on doing the same with the bridge. With the jumps, I didnt have to ever give her a single bump in the line because from what I saw, she was pretty in sync and focused on me and where I was going.

When I do the bridge with her again, Im going to take TinyLilys advice and give her a light bump in the lead here and there to be more direct in telling her what I want.


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## EliRose

When I mean "care", I mean where you are in relation to her. As in caring about not running you over.

Being distracted doesn't mean the horse is reactive.


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## EliRose

Reacting is bolting, spooking, excitement over otherwise "reacting" to minor, everyday, stimulus. Looking at something doesn't mean the horse is reactive.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> When I mean "care", I mean where you are in relation to her. As in caring about not running you over.
> 
> Being distracted doesn't mean the horse is reactive.


Ive always see a distracted horse as a reactive one. Cause one who is distracted gives them a reason to spook. The more distracted a horse is, the less focused they are on you.

I could be wrong.

I very much care about Fly not running me over.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, you do not even have a basic understanding of a horse as a prey animal if you think being looky and slightly distracted is "reactive"! As a prey animal, a horse has to be in tune with his environment and notice the slightest changes or movements just to be safe and not end up as dinner tonight. Even our domesticated horses have this instinct no matter how safe their quarters are. Just because a horse is distracted does not mean they will run over you---horses know where every member of the herd is at any given time even when they are fleeing from a predator. You need to learn to trust your horse and learn to read what she is trying to tell you.


As a rider who enjoys challenging trails in unsettle land, I appreciate my mare's alertness when her superior senses pick up that something may not be right. Rattlesnakes, cougars, quick sand, rogue stallions trying to cut out the mares under saddle, wild boar, bulls threatening to charge, uncertain footing, etc mean that her instinct for survival by being looky and sometimes distracted keep us safe! Hubby's gelding and my mare are not buddy sour, but I'll guarantee they always know where each other is, even on the larger rides with over 100 horses---that has advantages too since we know our horses will find each other if life goes south and we have to ride for our lives to escape a predator.


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## Dehda01

If a horse is being distracted by something outside of the ring, you(as the handler) need to get more interesting....

Is Warwick Schiller's video he illustrates that by changing direction rapidly, or asking for disengaging the hindquarters. My horses pay attention to me because I will make them work harder if they take their attention off me. Oerhaps it will be work, or disengaging in hindquarters, or a quick change of direction... I get INTERESTING! They don't want to look away because then it is more work for them. Right now, you aren't commanding your space or her respect. And she is a fairly polite horse so far, but that can always change once she figures out she can get away with it. You will need to learn how to claim space and not be boring, you must keep you energy up, but not too up during groundwork to get an electricity between the two of you for communication. But it is a fine line... Similar to the fine line between too much desensitizing/sensitizing.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Ive always see a distracted horse as a reactive one. Cause one who is distracted gives them a reason to spook. The more distracted a horse is, the less focused they are on you.
> 
> I could be wrong.
> 
> I very much care about Fly not running me over.


You don't have her attention. YOU care, she doesn't.

I have handled hyped racehorses ready to run who are hyper AWARE, not distracted. That's reactivity. I've also had my personal horse spook hard and dump me while we were on a drape rein walking off. He's not remotely reactive, but he REACTED to something really scary in the moment. There is a difference. You're working with a large prey animal with a mind of their own.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, you do not even have a basic understanding of a horse as a prey animal if you think being looky and slightly distracted is "reactive"! As a prey animal, a horse has to be in tune with his environment and notice the slightest changes or movements just to be safe and not end up as dinner tonight. Even our domesticated horses have this instinct no matter how safe their quarters are. Just because a horse is distracted does not mean they will run over you---horses know where every member of the herd is at any given time even when they are fleeing from a predator. You need to learn to trust your horse and learn to read what she is trying to tell you.
> 
> 
> As a rider who enjoys challenging trails in unsettle land, I appreciate my mare's alertness when her superior senses pick up that something may not be right. Rattlesnakes, cougars, quick sand, rogue stallions trying to cut out the mares under saddle, wild boar, bulls threatening to charge, uncertain footing, etc mean that her instinct for survival by being looky and sometimes distracted keep us safe! Hubby's gelding and my mare are not buddy sour, but I'll guarantee they always know where each other is, even on the larger rides with over 100 horses---that has advantages too since we know our horses will find each other if life goes south and we have to ride for our lives to escape a predator.


Sorry what I meant was, by "distracted" I meant spooking to surroundings. Though she is a lot better now.

I am familiar with herd instincts and a horses first instinct is survival first. I am well aware of that.

I am familiar with how horses all know where each other are. Ive picked up on this and learned from my herd watching.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> If a horse is being distracted by something outside of the ring, you(as the handler) need to get more interesting....
> 
> Is Warwick Schiller's video he illustrates that by changing direction rapidly, or asking for disengaging the hindquarters. My horses pay attention to me because I will make them work harder if they take their attention off me. Oerhaps it will be work, or disengaging in hindquarters, or a quick change of direction... I get INTERESTING! They don't want to look away because then it is more work for them. Right now, you aren't commanding your space or her respect. And she is a fairly polite horse so far, but that can always change once she figures out she can get away with it. You will need to learn how to claim space and not be boring, you must keep you energy up, but not too up during groundwork to get an electricity between the two of you for communication. But it is a fine line... Similar to the fine line between too much desensitizing/sensitizing.


This is why Ive been wanting to do what Warwick did in that video for over a month now.

So let me ask you, when my riding coach said that she doesnt let any horse turn their head while leading them, (she gives them a bump on the line), would you agree with that? Should a horse be allowed to look elsewhere while being led?

Basically what you are saying is, I need to put in the extra effort to consistently and constantly keep her attention on me.


----------



## Prairie

So if you are aware of all this, why do you think a distracted horse will run over you? Don't you think she knows exactly where you are?


Your biggest problem is being too concerned with micro-managing her and too self-centered on yourself. You need to learn to "go with the flow" and learn to make the lessons fun for her so she pays attention. Right now, you seem to do a good job of annoying her because you are too busy with that carrot stick to pay attention to her, with trying to following some senseless outside trainer, and with patting yourself on the back for tiny improvements rather than giving credit to your mare for putting up with your novice errors, boring her so she doesn't pay attention, and confusing her with your messed up cues or not getting out of her way when she tries to respond correctly. 


This mare is green, but fortunately for you, she has a good disposition and really tries to figure out what you are asking. Give her credit for being a good girl and putting up with your errors! Also recognize that horses can be dangerous and will spook----if that's more than you can deal with, find another hobby!


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> So if you are aware of all this, why do you think a distracted horse will run over you? Don't you think she knows exactly where you are?
> 
> 
> Your biggest problem is being too concerned with micro-managing her and too self-centered on yourself. You need to learn to "go with the flow" and learn to make the lessons fun for her so she pays attention. Right now, you seem to do a good job of annoying her because you are too busy with that carrot stick to pay attention to her, with trying to following some senseless outside trainer, and with patting yourself on the back for tiny improvements rather than giving credit to your mare for putting up with your novice errors, boring her so she doesn't pay attention, and confusing her with your messed up cues or not getting out of her way when she tries to respond correctly.
> 
> 
> This mare is green, but fortunately for you, she has a good disposition and really tries to figure out what you are asking. Give her credit for being a good girl and putting up with your errors! Also recognize that horses can be dangerous and will spook----if that's more than you can deal with, find another hobby!


Im not micro managing her. And I never said that im not giving her any credit for any improvements. How are my lessons not fun?


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> This is why Ive been wanting to do what Warwick did in that video for over a month now.
> 
> So let me ask you, when my riding coach said that she doesnt let any horse turn their head while leading them, (she gives them a bump on the line), would you agree with that? S*hould a horse be allowed to look elsewhere while being led?*
> 
> Basically what you are saying is, I need to put in the extra effort to consistently and constantly keep her attention on me.


not very much. if they glance over somewhere, having heard something, this is normal. but, once you do 'something' to get their thought back on you, if they don't come back to you as easily as they left, then they aren't REALLY with you in the first place.

a horse that is really with you will keep you in the corner of his eye, one ear near you, ready to swing back to you the instant you move. his looking elsewhere is not him actually "leaving", just him checking out his surrounds a bit.

but, it's a matter of degree. so , you test that. when you see the horse go 'away' , you move a little, say, sideways or backwards and see if the hrose adapts to that. or, you make a lttie noise and see if they come back to look at you. start soft, then if they don't respond, go much bigger. you give them a chance to take 'the good deal', and if they don't, you make them feel a bit sorry for not having taken that.

you don't STOP them from looking elsehwere. that could only be done by holding them on an iron grip, such that they could never move their head to one side or the other. but, you don't just allow them to go out there for very long before you check in with , "are you still with me?" "ARE YOU!!??" "that's better, now let's go"


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## Dehda01

Hoofpic said:


> This is why Ive been wanting to do what Warwick did in that video for over a month now.
> 
> So let me ask you, when my riding coach said that she doesnt let any horse turn their head while leading them, (she gives them a bump on the line), would you agree with that? Should a horse be allowed to look elsewhere while being led?
> 
> Basically what you are saying is, I need to put in the extra effort to consistently and constantly keep her attention on me.


I don't mind a slight turn, as long as they aren't taking me with them or gawking. I am not going to ask my horses to close their eyes as they walk through the world. Depending on the level of disrespect, I might jiggle the lead, go to a full shank, or make them do a full 360. But it really depends on the horse, how much training they have, and what they are doing. My silly 2yr olds that I have had for 5 months I will need to do big corrections on, particularly when I hauled her to a new place this weekend. My other horses have been with me much longer and know better, so I often need to only catch my breath in a certain way to get their attention back to me. The next step is me picking up the lead rope, and escalating.


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## jenkat86

I just watched your video of your last ride on Fly (I think last)- where you are trotting on line. My only suggestion- bring your stirrups up at least one hole. They are too long, and it's making you brace too much. 

My only other suggestion- look for another "horsemanship" trainer, or instructor to help you, but don't get caught up on the fact that they aren't a liberty trainer. You and your horse need to learn the alphabet before you can start reading (props to @gottatrot for that analogy). You can't get to liberty without a solid foundation of the basics. I think you need a little more work one-on-one with an actual person in front of you for that to really sink in.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Im not micro managing her. And I never said that im not giving her any credit for any improvements. How are my lessons not fun?



If you're not micro managing her, how do you explain so many pages of posts on just how to learn her? Where have you ever given the mare credit for her patience with your confusing cues and tries to respond correctly---you don't even praise her when she responds correctly or acknowledge that you are the reason she can't because you are in her way. Exactly how are the lessons fun for Fly?---normally she's bored to death from your micro-managing, fumbling with the carrot stick, and you can't keep her focus. 


As long as my horse has an ear cocked in my direction, I'm please that the horse is focused on me and what we are doing. Certainly something will catch her attention so both ears are pointed forward as she looks, but all I have to do to regain her focus is execute another cue, even one as simple as changing speed or direction.


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## DraftyAiresMum

jenkat86 said:


> My only other suggestion- look for another "horsemanship" trainer, or instructor to help you, but don't get caught up on the fact that they aren't a liberty trainer. You and your horse need to learn the alphabet before you can start reading (props to @gottatrot for that analogy). You can't get to liberty without a solid foundation of the basics. I think you need a little more work one-on-one with an actual person in front of you for that to really sink in.


To add to this, I would look for a trainer who doesn't follow one specific discipline. When you have someone who not only drank all the Kool-aid of a specific trainer, but now sells that Kool-aid, you're going to run into a lot of stuff like what happened with your old Parelli trainer. "There is only ONE WAY to do XYZ and that is the way of _________ trainer!! Any other way is rubbish and mean and cruel and won't work. There is no need for you to adapt to the horse. The horse must adapt to you!!" It's a very narrow-minded way of thinking that sometimes does more harm than good.

If you were to watch me (or most people I know) do groundwork, you'd see a little bit of Clinton Anderson, a little bit of Chris Cox, maybe even a little bit of *gasp* Parelli (although none of us would ever admit it :lol: ), and a good dose of just good old-fashioned common horse sense. I cut my teeth in the horse world with a trainer who despised "natural horsemanship" (because to her, NH was synonymous with Parelli, mostly). Hers was a common sense approach. We didn't do groundwork, as such. I never had a real lesson in groundwork. She showed me a couple of times how to free lunge in a round pen, then once I'd taught my gelding how to free lunge in side reins, she taught me to lunge on a line. Any other corrections and teaching of how to do stuff, she left up to me. I may not have been able to wiggle my lead rope and get my gelding to run backward, but I could back him with a finger to his chest and the word "back"...and that was good enough for us. Of course, I goal wasn't (and never has been) liberty...it's been riding. BUT, we did enough work on the ground to make my crazy, _reactive_ Arab/NSH who everyone said wouldn't amount to anything because of his past abuse into a solid kid's bareback lesson horse in a french link eggbutt snaffle (after his owners said he couldn't be ridden in anything but a twisted wire snaffle). :shrug:


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## Prairie

It's amazing what a little bit of Horse Sense can accomplish @DraftyAiresMum! By following many different trainers, you build a deep bag of tricks and learn to read a horse so you know which trick will work with a particular horse. There is no such thing as a training technique that will work with every horse. You have to train the individual horse you have and not be set on using only one trainer's concepts and techniques.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Prairie said:


> It's amazing what a little bit of Horse Sense can accomplish @DraftyAiresMum! By following many different trainers, you build a deep bag of tricks and *learn to read a horse so you know which trick will work with a particular horse*. There is no such thing as a training technique that will work with every horse. You have to train the individual horse you have and not be set on using only one trainer's concepts and techniques.


This is the biggest part of it (in bold). Learning to read the horse. 

My old gelding was VERY expressive. You always knew how he was feeling or what he was thinking. If he was bored, he would let you know. If he didn't want to do something, there was no doubt about it. If he was engaged and happy, he was a completely different horse. 

My current gelding isn't as opinionated, but because I learned to read a horse first and foremost, it made it easier to read his more subtle cues that he's not having it and he's bored. I was lunging him a few weeks ago when we got our new saddle and I could tell he wasn't really wanting to work. So, after some lunging, we worked on yielding and hooking on and different close work. Within a couple of minutes, he was engaged and paying attention. I was still able to evaluate saddle fit reasonably well and I maintained his attention and focus without having to work too hard. Win-win, in my book.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> not very much. if they glance over somewhere, having heard something, this is normal. but, once you do 'something' to get their thought back on you, if they don't come back to you as easily as they left, then they aren't REALLY with you in the first place.
> 
> a horse that is really with you will keep you in the corner of his eye, one ear near you, ready to swing back to you the instant you move. his looking elsewhere is not him actually "leaving", just him checking out his surrounds a bit.
> 
> but, it's a matter of degree. so , you test that. when you see the horse go 'away' , you move a little, say, sideways or backwards and see if the hrose adapts to that. or, you make a lttie noise and see if they come back to look at you. start soft, then if they don't respond, go much bigger. you give them a chance to take 'the good deal', and if they don't, you make them feel a bit sorry for not having taken that.
> 
> you don't STOP them from looking elsehwere. that could only be done by holding them on an iron grip, such that they could never move their head to one side or the other. but, you don't just allow them to go out there for very long before you check in with , "are you still with me?" "ARE YOU!!??" "that's better, now let's go"


Thanks. So sounds to me like there should be a boundary as to how much a horse can look elsewhere when being led. So if they look around casually and head comes back to you, that is fine. No need to give a light bump in the line.

But if they look elsewhere and dont pay attention to you and are too engaged with other happenings around them, then give a bump in the line to get their attention on you again. 

Or like you mentioned, do other stuff like change direction, walk sideways, make a noise. That could be perhaps a better idea because you are essentially testing them to see how focused they are on you, before having to correct and not just correcting them (bumping the line) right away. 

Sound right?


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I don't mind a slight turn, as long as they aren't taking me with them or gawking. I am not going to ask my horses to close their eyes as they walk through the world. Depending on the level of disrespect, I might jiggle the lead, go to a full shank, or make them do a full 360. But it really depends on the horse, how much training they have, and what they are doing. My silly 2yr olds that I have had for 5 months I will need to do big corrections on, particularly when I hauled her to a new place this weekend. My other horses have been with me much longer and know better, so I often need to only catch my breath in a certain way to get their attention back to me. The next step is me picking up the lead rope, and escalating.


Thanks, that really helps.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I just watched your video of your last ride on Fly (I think last)- where you are trotting on line. My only suggestion- bring your stirrups up at least one hole. They are too long, and it's making you brace too much.
> 
> My only other suggestion- look for another "horsemanship" trainer, or instructor to help you, but don't get caught up on the fact that they aren't a liberty trainer. You and your horse need to learn the alphabet before you can start reading (props to @gottatrot for that analogy). You can't get to liberty without a solid foundation of the basics. I think you need a little more work one-on-one with an actual person in front of you for that to really sink in.


I tried my stirrups higher but I found it harder. When I first started riding Fly I had them down one notch from wha theyre at right now. What do you mean bracing too much? I mean, I can give it another try moving them up one more.

How did you think my overall ride was,once I was on my own?

Well, I could bring in another trainer if I wanted (was really hoping for it to really sink in on my own and Im still confident it will). You are referring to the REALLY HARD correction that will have me step and react well outside of my boundaries right? The one that will make Fly go WOAH, Ok I better stop now, he means business.

I started watching CA videos again last night and will do more of watching his videos for the next bit here. I forgot who said it, she said that after she watched some of his videos, it made a difference in her. Let me just give this a try first. Im still confident I can run solo with this, its the matter of me making myself a lot bigger when the time calls for it. I know I have it in me.


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## Prairie

Bracing means you aren't flowing with the horse's movement and moving in synch with the motion. That's why you flop all over the saddle and aren't balance with the horse. You're also very stiff and aren't using your elbows like an elastic band so you won't pop her in the face at every stride.


Now a question....Why are you posting in a western saddle? Normally posting is associated with riding English. While there are times and places for posting when riding western, IME most novice riders learn to "feel" the horse's movement faster by just sitting in the saddle, which leads to the rider learning how to flow with the motion of the horse.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> What do you mean bracing too much?


What I mean by bracing is...you are not moving with the horse. You look like you are waiting for impact or something, your body still isn't looking comfortable and you still don't look like you have found your seat.



Hoofpic said:


> How did you think my overall ride was,once I was on my own?


Overall I thought it was good. You are improving with every ride. I really like that you trotted on the lunge line, I think you should continue that for a few more lessons to help your body figure out what it needs to do. 



Hoofpic said:


> You are referring to the REALLY HARD correction that will have me step and react well outside of my boundaries right? The one that will make Fly go WOAH, Ok I better stop now, he means business.


Not at all. What I mean is that you take one-on-one, in person direction really well. The advice we give you doesn't sink in as well because we are not watching you and we are not SHOWING you when to do XYZ at the exact moment you need to do XYZ. The problem is when you come to the forum and all of us tell you to do something, you have ALL day to THINK about it...and then you start thinking too much and you mess yourself up. When someone is there with you in person telling you what to do, you just do it. You don't have time to question anything. THAT'S what you need to do all the time. 

Looking at it this way...you are very much like your mare  and that's not a bad thing.


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## jenkat86

Prairie said:


> Now a question....Why are you posting in a western saddle? Normally posting is associated with riding English. While there are times and places for posting when riding western, IME most novice riders learn to "feel" the horse's movement faster by just sitting in the saddle, which leads to the rider learning how to flow with the motion of the horse.


 @Prairie- I ride western and always post at an extended jog. Our shows even allow/encourage us to. I do agree with you though that he should be sitting the trot to better feel the movement, but Fly seems so forward and he seems so rigid that he'd just pop right off of her. Until he learns to control her trot, I think it's best he post.


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## karliejaye

I did a lot of bracing and bouncing when first learning to ride and one image/idea really helped me out and I still think of it when I feel myself having a difficult time following a quick horse.


Think of a basket ball. When it is filled with air it is the equivalent of a tense muscle and a braced body: rigid and full unyielding. What happens when you drop a basket ball? It bounces. Now think of a partially deflated basket ball. It is similar to relaxed muscles. What happens when you drop a deflated basket ball? It doesn't bounce.


Now, there is a fine line between having yielding, relaxed muscles that flow with a horse's movement and becoming a floppy sack of potatoes, but muscle tension (often deep core muscles and spinal muscles) leads to bouncing and you can't muscle your way to following the horse. You must relax into your horse to follow.
Maybe your instructor talked about that, I am watching at work and can't turn on the audio.




I know you're getting a TON of info kind of flung at you and I would imagine it gets overwhelming. I just want to say kudos for sticking to it and growing as a rider and horseperson. With all the differing opinions and info-overload you are getting, I want an honest answer: Are you still having fun? Are you safe with your horse? Are you growing as an individual? If yes, you are doing SOMETHING right!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> What do you mean bracing too much?


You should not be pushing your weight down your leg onto the stirrup. THAT is bracing (you're bracing your leg/weight against the stirrup). Your weight should be mainly focused on your seat because that is where your balance comes from. Right now, you're relying too much on your stirrups and putting all your weight in the stirrups. This is part of what is causing you to bounce all over Fly's back.

Honestly, were I your trainer, you'd be back to solely walking until you had a good, independent seat. A lot of stirrupless walking to supple up your hips and get you feeling the horse. Right now, everything from the hips up is stiff and like you've got a ramrod shoved up your patootie. Yes, you need to have good posture, but you also need to loosen up. 

You remind me a lot of a lady at my barn that my best friend was giving lessons to (and I would help, if my best friend got frustrated or couldn't explain something well enough). Thought ramrod straight posture and holding herself that way was how she should ride. Her little mustang mare did a lot of what Fly is doing: breaking down out of the trot without being asked, trotting fast and choppy, when she did trot she was all strung out. Lady couldn't figure out why Blanca had better gaits and didn't break down out of the trot when my best friend rode her. Finally, we took her stirrups away from her and HOLY CRAP! :shock: The difference was AMAZING! Sad thing was, the lady relied on her stirrups so heavily that she was terrified to ride without them. She was another one who put her insecurities (particularly about riding in the arena with other horses being ridden) off on her mare instead of owning it.


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## Hoofpic

Speaking of CA, when I first watched his videos many many months ago, I believe this was the first one I watched of his. In fact at the time, Ive watched a ton of his videos so I am quite familiar with his training style and most of the ones that Ive watched were from trouble or aggressive horses with no manners. This was well back in April of last year before I even got Fly.

Now even though Fly cant 100% relate because she is not an aggressive horse, I can pick up a lot from just CA's body language in this video.


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## Prairie

jenkat86 said:


> @*Prairie*- I ride western and always post at an extended jog. Our shows even allow/encourage us to. I do agree with you though that he should be sitting the trot to better feel the movement, but Fly seems so forward and he seems so rigid that he'd just pop right off of her. Until he learns to control her trot, I think it's best he post.



That's why I said certain times and places since most Western riders I know will post an extended jog/trot. However, in Hoofpic's case, he's really forcing the posting so it doesn't originate from the horse's upward movement at a trot and he's too stiff. IME, novice riders do better if they concentrate on one thing, in this case feeling the motion of the horse and relaxing so they move in synch with it.


At this point, I highly doubt that Fly has the training to properly jog with that impulsion from the hindquarters that flows over the rounded back, resulting in that smooth pitter-patter jog of a WP horse. 


^This is a good reason why novice riders should have that "been there, done that" well trained horse so they can feel what a properly working horse is doing.


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## jenkat86

Prairie said:


> ^This is a good reason why novice riders should have that "been there, done that" well trained horse so they can feel what a properly working horse is doing.


Absolutely.


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## Hoofpic

Now one thing that this video reminded me of...

If a horse, say you let them loose in a round pen or an arena so that they can run around, get out their bucks etc. I do this with Fly every now and then, sometimes I would leave the arena so she is alone to run around, other times I would hang out in the middle usually. 

Would you expect this horse to run along the wall for every second that you are present in the arena? What if the horse will run straight towards you, but then say when they reach 10ft from you they shift their angle and run around you. Not a complete circle around you but they will angle off away from you. And then they run to the end of the arena and do the same thing again. Whats your thoughts on this? Would you ever allow this and if not, what correction would you make (aside from nipping them in the bud with the whip or carrot stick).


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## egrogan

My thought is if you let them loose for "free time" and aren't asking them for anything, then free time is free time (sort of like dinner time is dinner time, I would not mess with a horse while they are offered and eating grain. Though of course they don't get to be nasty to me about it and have to wait for the signal to eat. But once they're eating, that's their time when I'm not asking them to do anything that involves me). If you don't want to get run over, get out of the way. Or don't offer free time. But don't give mixed messages by offering free time and then half demanding their attention.

Isabel will run and buck for a lap of the ring and then just stands in the corner and looks at her reflection in the mirror.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Now one thing that this video reminded me of...
> 
> If a horse, say you let them loose in a round pen or an arena so that they can run around, get out their bucks etc. I do this with Fly every now and then, sometimes I would leave the arena so she is alone to run around, other times I would hang out in the middle usually.
> 
> Would you expect this horse to run along the wall for every second that you are present in the arena? What if the horse will run straight towards you, but then say when they reach 10ft from you they shift their angle and run around you. Not a complete circle around you but they will angle off away from you. And then they run to the end of the arena and do the same thing again. Whats your thoughts on this? Would you ever allow this and if not, what correction would you make (aside from nipping them in the bud with the whip or carrot stick).


If I am anywhere in the vicinity, I do not allow bucks (unless they are WELL away from me/my space) or charging toward me. That's what turnout is for. If I don't have a whip or a carrot stick, the best way I've found to deter that kind of behavior is to make yourself big and literally chase the horse away from you. This can be done by moving toward the horse aggressively, waving your arms, shouting, basically anything that says "Hey! I'm bigger and badder than you, so you need to respect me!"

However, like egrogan said, free time is free time. I don't expect them to pay attention to me (other than to where I am in relation to them and respecting my space) or lunge like they would if we were working. In my journal thread, I talked about having Aires in the round arena for some free time and how he was acting. I usually don't go to the middle of the space unless we're working. That's his cue to know "Oh. Time to get down to business." The only exception is if I'm sitting on the mounting block in the middle of the space. Then, my body language is completely passive and I just watch him. If I'm in the middle and my body language is upright and "in charge," it's time to work.


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## karliejaye

I used to let horses run and muck about when I had access to an enclosed arena. I would either get out or just make myself big if they came in my direction. Like egrogan said, free time is free time. They get to decide how they will use it. I only step in if they are getting dangerously worked up (only had to do that twice with an OTTB in for training).


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> What I mean by bracing is...you are not moving with the horse. You look like you are waiting for impact or something, your body still isn't looking comfortable and you still don't look like you have found your seat.


Well after last lesson I feel a lot more comfortable in the saddle. I know I cant convince you guys on here but Im just saying how it is. My coach saw it as well. Do I still need to get better? Of course, but it was a significant improvement. There is no doubt that time will get me fully comfortable and balanced in the saddle, just like it did with the lesson mare.



> Overall I thought it was good. You are improving with every ride. I really like that you trotted on the lunge line, I think you should continue that for a few more lessons to help your body figure out what it needs to do.


Thanks, we will be.



> Not at all. What I mean is that you take one-on-one, in person direction really well. The advice we give you doesn't sink in as well because we are not watching you and we are not SHOWING you when to do XYZ at the exact moment you need to do XYZ. The problem is when you come to the forum and all of us tell you to do something, you have ALL day to THINK about it...and then you start thinking too much and you mess yourself up. When someone is there with you in person telling you what to do, you just do it. You don't have time to question anything. THAT'S what you need to do all the time.


No no, don't think that the advice given on here doesnt sink in well with me. It does, it just sinks in differently. But its up to me to step up, take the bulls by the horn and fulfill the requests. I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I NEED TO DO. And I know I can do it. 

The biggest challenge that Im finding is that I cant see how its done in person, but thats what my mind is for and after I visualize it, I know.

But what Im starting to do is, take the advice on here, run it through my mind but take it off my mind after that. Dont even think about it (cause that will cause my to dwell on it). Just do whats being told of me, there is no excuses and no way around it.



> Looking at it this way...you are very much like your mare  and that's not a bad thing.


Its not a bad thing but still I see myself being different.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic, you may *feel* like you're more comfortable in the saddle, but what we *see* (with trained eyes) is that you are still very stiff and bouncing all over Fly's back. Not saying there's not improvement, because there is. Just pointing out a BIG issue that needs to be addressed with alacrity on your trainer's part.

One thing I'm VERY glad to see is that you are no longer comparing riding the lesson mare and riding Fly. They are nowhere _near_ the same and won't be for a good long while (if ever). Comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.


----------



## egrogan

And to add to the above, you feeling more confident and you still being stiff and unbalanced are not mutually exclusive. You DO look better. You do NOT look balanced and secure in the saddle. That is what you're working towards, and you just need more time in the saddle to make progress. Lunge lessons are great for this, and totally agree with the people who suggested you might ask for some stirrupless lunge lessons to keep moving forward.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Well after last lesson I feel a lot more comfortable in the saddle. I know I cant convince you guys on here but Im just saying how it is. My coach saw it as well. Do I still need to get better? Of course, but it was a significant improvement. There is no doubt that time will get me fully comfortable and balanced in the saddle, just like it did with the lesson mare.


You can tell us the sky is green if you'd like. What your video shows contradicts what you are telling us. You will not understand what we are saying until you find and feel that balance in the saddle, then it will make sense. 



Hoofpic said:


> I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I NEED TO DO. And I know I can do it.


I'm going to be blunt here, but no, you don't know exactly what you need to do because you don't yet know what you don't know. 



Hoofpic said:


> The biggest challenge that Im finding is that I cant see how its done in person, but thats what my mind is for and after I visualize it, I know.


Which is exactly why you need someone there in front of you showing you what you need to see.


----------



## jenkat86

egrogan said:


> And to add to the above, you feeling more confident and you still being stiff and unbalanced are not mutually exclusive. You DO look better. You do NOT look balanced and secure in the saddle. That is what you're working towards, and you just need more time in the saddle to make progress. Lunge lessons are great for this, and totally agree with the people who suggested you might ask for some stirrupless lunge lessons to keep moving forward.


Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> If I am anywhere in the vicinity, I do not allow bucks (unless they are WELL away from me/my space) or charging toward me. That's what turnout is for. If I don't have a whip or a carrot stick, the best way I've found to deter that kind of behavior is to make yourself big and literally chase the horse away from you. This can be done by moving toward the horse aggressively, waving your arms, shouting, basically anything that says "Hey! I'm bigger and badder than you, so you need to respect me!"
> 
> However, like egrogan said, free time is free time. I don't expect them to pay attention to me (other than to where I am in relation to them and respecting my space) or lunge like they would if we were working. In my journal thread, I talked about having Aires in the round arena for some free time and how he was acting. I usually don't go to the middle of the space unless we're working. That's his cue to know "Oh. Time to get down to business." The only exception is if I'm sitting on the mounting block in the middle of the space. Then, my body language is completely passive and I just watch him. If I'm in the middle and my body language is upright and "in charge," it's time to work.


Thanks, thats what I thought. 

You make a good point about not standing in the middle of the arena if its free time. Best to just sit at the end of even better, not be in the arena at all. Because Im sure Fly sees it as well that if you stand in the centre, it means work time.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic, you may *feel* like you're more comfortable in the saddle, but what we *see* (with trained eyes) is that you are still very stiff and bouncing all over Fly's back. Not saying there's not improvement, because there is. Just pointing out a BIG issue that needs to be addressed with alacrity on your trainer's part.
> 
> One thing I'm VERY glad to see is that you are no longer comparing riding the lesson mare and riding Fly. They are nowhere _near_ the same and won't be for a good long while (if ever). Comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.


But Im bouncing a lot less than before and thats a very good sign. I do have to remind myself that this is only ride #5. I have no doubt in my mind I will eventually fully find my seat on her, seeing the progress Ive made so far in the 5 lessons. I know Prairie wont agree, as she thinks Im flopping like a fish all over the place. I was in my first few lessons but after the recent one, I am doing it a lot less. My coach even said it. I have more control of myself and my balance in the seat than before, but obviously still work to go. 

You suggested I started posting as soon as I give her the que to trot each time and I did just that and I can tell Fly appreciates it. Its something that I do every single time now.

My coach is preaching on me to get looser and it is coming. Last lesson I was asking her about the elbows and how Ive unlocked my hips when turning and giving leg (which is great, thank you again Angel), but also to unlock my elbows forward and back so when Fly lowers her head, she wont be picking up tension on the reins. As soon as she lowers her head, my elbows give a bit (she gave the elastic band effect as well), so that the reins soften. And I started doing this in the last lesson.

Also, before the next ride I am going to bring up my stirrups one hole and see if it makes a difference.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, thats what I thought.
> 
> You make a good point about not standing in the middle of the arena if its free time. Best to just sit at the end of even better, not be in the arena at all. Because Im sure Fly sees it as well that if you stand in the centre, it means work time.


I like to make things as black-and-white as possible for my horse (or any horse I'm working with). I like them to know when I want certain things that I will ask in a certain way. It makes things easier for both of us. Clear, consistent cues and expectations.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> And to add to the above, you feeling more confident and you still being stiff and unbalanced are not mutually exclusive. You DO look better. You do NOT look balanced and secure in the saddle. That is what you're working towards, and you just need more time in the saddle to make progress. Lunge lessons are great for this, and totally agree with the people who suggested you might ask for some stirrupless lunge lessons to keep moving forward.


Thanks, I know I look better on Fly and my balance has gotten better but its not there yet. I know that and Im working towards it. If I didnt make any visible progress in these 5 lessons so far, then it would be a bit concerning and discouraging. But I have and my coach has seen it and she loves my will and dedication to learn and thats why she is confident I can reach that point. Thats what makes her such a great coach to learn from. When you have uncertainty or doubt, she gives you the encouragement to bring your spirits back up.

Im not saying that my spirits have been down when riding under my coach. But for instance, when I first was taught the rising trot on the lesson mare, I did have doubt that i would ever get it down because I was confused and didnt know how to do it. I didnt know what she meant when said to be "in sync" with your horse. But I got it. And like she described, once you get it, it clicks and you will know it and it feels natural. And I just finally got my rising trot down for the very first time in the lesson right before the riding clinic there. She was really pressing on me getting it because she said I had to know it for the riding clinic.

When she taught me diagnals and asked me to change diagnals, I nailed it the very first time she asked. She was surprised, same with me.

Ive had stirrup lessons before, just not on Fly. My coach has asked me many times in all of my lessons if I feel better posting on Fly when she trots or sit, I tell her post. Because I bounce too much when I sit on her at a trot. And I dont mind posting because for me its much more comfortable. Ive never found sitting on a horse while trotting to be all that enjoyable myself.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Ive never found sitting on a horse while trotting to be all that enjoyable myself.


That's because you're so stiff. See how one follows the other? 

Did you watch that video of my best friend riding my gelding on my journal thread? You notice how the whole time he's trotting, she's not posting, nor is she bouncing all over his back? Now, watch that video again, then watch you posting on Fly.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That's because you're so stiff. See how one follows the other?
> 
> Did you watch that video of my best friend riding my gelding on my journal thread? You notice how the whole time he's trotting, she's not posting, nor is she bouncing all over his back? Now, watch that video again, then watch you posting on Fly.


No I couldnt find that thread, what section is it in?

Well on the lesson mare, when I did a sitting trot on her I was fine but I still didnt find it enjoyable.


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## Hoofpic

Finally came in the mail this morning! Bit longer than expected but the owner said the embroidery had a bit of a delay. I love it!!!! Custom made, the top band and throat latch are larger than your pony size halter but smaller than the regular size halter. This was the only way to go. RIght now Fly's red halter is a pony size halter and when she has the winter coat on, she is on the last hole and its a bit tight to get on especially with her super thick mane.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, your assumption that your riding is improving because you are more relaxed and confident is based on incorrect assumptions. Your video does not lie and shows an out of balanced rider flopping around on the back of a horse jerking on the mare's face. Nor will you be able to take what we tell you and improve because you don't have the knowledge yet to visualize it.....and you are too concerned with trying to impress us with how much you've improved despite what our eyes tell us on your videos. Your trainer is doing exactly what every good teacher does by looking for something positive to say plus she wants to keep you as a paying customer. 


There's an excellent video on another forum that demonstrates how to set up a 55 gallon drum and exercises to improve your balance and fluidity similar to being on the back of a horse. I'll have to ask Admin if I can post a link to it. I've used this barrel riding myself and found that it really works to improve your seat while working the core. Best part is that you ride the barrel on days when it's really too miserable outside to enjoy riding!


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## Hoofpic

Couple other things - looks like I wasted $30 on that small bucket of pelleted vitamins and minerals. Tried giving it to Fly for the 3rd time and she wont eat it plain. Even tried putting some loose redrock salt in her pan and nothing. But if you mix it with minced carrots or crushed cookies she will eat it.

Here is a couple pics from Tues night that my friend boarder took with my phone while I was preparing her pellets. This will give you an idea how her current red halter fits her now.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> No I couldnt find that thread, what section is it in?
> 
> Well on the lesson mare, when I did a sitting trot on her I was fine but I still didnt find it enjoyable.


As and ye shall receive: http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/buenos-aires-new-beginning-660513/


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## egrogan

She sure is cute!


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, your assumption that your riding is improving because you are more relaxed and confident is based on incorrect assumptions. Your video does not lie and shows an out of balanced rider flopping around on the back of a horse jerking on the mare's face. Nor will you be able to take what we tell you and improve because you don't have the knowledge yet to visualize it.....and you are too concerned with trying to impress us with how much you've improved despite what our eyes tell us on your videos. Your trainer is doing exactly what every good teacher does by looking for something positive to say plus she wants to keep you as a paying customer.
> 
> 
> There's an excellent video on another forum that demonstrates how to set up a 55 gallon drum and exercises to improve your balance and fluidity similar to being on the back of a horse. I'll have to ask Admin if I can post a link to it. I've used this barrel riding myself and found that it really works to improve your seat while working the core. Best part is that you ride the barrel on days when it's really too miserable outside to enjoy riding!


Well if you dont think Ive improved at all from the very first lesson and still think I flop around like a fish on her back, then that is your opinion. I know I have a ways to go but I also know that I have made improvements. Im not saying it just because it makes me feel better. Im saying it because I feel it. I am noticably more comfortable and more confident and less nervous when on Fly's back.

I will say one thing, I learn a lot from watching my coach ride. Each time she gets on Fly's back I sit and watch her positioning in the saddle, her rythym, and I learn a lot from it. I am trying to mimic her.

Next Saturday my coach is going to an event (Im not sure exactly what event it is) but I just found out this past weekend from overhearing her chat about it with other riders who she teaches at our barn as theyre all going to it. 

They are taking a couple of the barn horses there, it has some jumping and there is a showmanship competition. 

I sat in on a lesson this past weekend where my coach was in the seat of learning, learning from a jumping coach. I thought the coach looked awfully familiar. The jumping coach is one of the BOs daughters! She comes out to the barn every now and then to ride some of the BO's horses. I knew that one of his daughters was a trainer, as he taught her. But up until now, I had no idea that the other one was one as well.

Anyways, I watched how my coach rode in that lesson and it really helps push more and more into my mind on exactly what I need to do. When you talk about having that softness in the saddle by feeling your horse through your seat, I know what you mean. I see it right way when my coach rides any horse. And I felt this on the lesson mare (it didnt come right away but over time it did). I know you dont think I know what you mean when you say it, but I do. I just havent transfered it over to Fly...yet.

My coach is a very honest and sincere trainer, I have full trust in her as a riding trainer. If im not improving, shes not going to BS me and lie to me saying that im improving unless she sees and believes that I am. She learned from the BO and I know the BO is a person I trust. The very first and immediate thing that I learned about my BO is that he just speaks his mind and if he comes across as harsh or too blunt at times, he will do it. There still days where I will run into him at the barn and he's still intimidating. Its just who he is, he has that aura about him. Trainer is the same way. Ive seen similarities in her that have carried over from the BO in not just their personalities but how they communicate with you when teaching.

Im not saying you are wrong, but Im just saying that I know I have made improvements since the first ride even if its only in some areas.

If you can get permission to post the link to that video I would very much be interested in trying it out. It does sound very beneficial.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> As and ye shall receive: http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/buenos-aires-new-beginning-660513/


Thanks


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## Prairie

I sent a message to Admin regarding the video and thread. 


However, it's is more than my opinion that you aren't improving in the basics of riding----balance and being in synch with the movement of the horse. Others have pointed this out too. Until you understand what balance feels like and are moving with the motion of the horse, you're really not improving. You've been BS's before and what you really fail to acknowledge is that as long as you are paying, any trainer is going to tell you that you are improving under their guidance. Unfortunately, there is a huge difference between watching someone ride in balance and moving with the horse and actually doing it.


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## Hoofpic

Listen, Im not trying to make excuses for myself. I just thought I would mention this.

Whenever I handle my mare, doing whatever at the barn, outside, in the arena, leading her into the barn, whatever. I know its nothing like Ive experienced at my previous barn. Why? Because at the previous barn, I didnt have a BO that was the great observer that my current BO is. The one at the old barn spent most of his days inside the house watching TV and only came out to feed or fix shelters. He couldnt care less about observing anyone or anything. For the most part, he didnt pay attention to anyone (and that would explain why that place has such a high turnover rate).

Anyways, the BO now is obviously a person who Ive had to learn over the months to become accustomed to having around me when Im at the barn. I may not want him observing me with my mare, but he will and he does as he pleases. Nothing wrong with that. Its his property, and he can choose to watch who he wants as he pleases. So as soon as I arrive at the barn, I know I always have that spotlight on me and that spotlight is the BO's eyes. Does it make me nervous? No. But I definitely take notice that he is observing and IMO its no different than having a trainer have a lesson with you and sit and watch you. It doesnt matter if the BO is 5ft away from me refilling buckets of water for his goats or 100ft away sitting on his quad chatting with someone. He is always observing. 

If there is one thing that Ive learned and have been impressed about him, its his ability to get to know horses and their personalities, as well as pecking orders in all the herds by just observing them from a distance. Mind you, he is there all day, everyday so he has the ability to do this at any given chance. But still.

So even though my BO has never taught me a lesson 1 on 1, he absolutely knows 100% how I am with my mare and where our herd of 2 stand. He knew this in the first week being there. And Im sure he is seeing the changes in us and what we have progressed through over the months and what we still need to work on.

Now awhile ago him and I were chatting (forgot about what), but anyways, whatever we were talking about, I ended up saying to him that my mare tries to get ahead of me while leading and/or inside my side. And he just replied (with a laugh) "Well, its simple...dont let her". He didn't go more in detail about it, he just left it at that. It was an extremely brief but bang on answer.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> I sent a message to Admin regarding the video and thread.
> 
> 
> However, it's is more than my opinion that you aren't improving in the basics of riding----balance and being in synch with the movement of the horse. Others have pointed this out too. Until you understand what balance feels like and are moving with the motion of the horse, you're really not improving. You've been BS's before and what you really fail to acknowledge is that as long as you are paying, any trainer is going to tell you that you are improving under their guidance. Unfortunately, there is a huge difference between watching someone ride in balance and moving with the horse and actually doing it.


Ok fine, you are right. I have not improved at all, not even the least slightest bit from lesson #1 to lesson #5 on Fly. I'm at the exact same spot that I was at once I first got on her.


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## Prairie

Good grief, I didn't say you aren't improving in some areas, but in the basics of balance and moving with the horse you haven't left the starting gate. Until you can ride with a balanced seat and are in synch with the movement of the your horse and have learned the art of elastic elbows, you aren't going to move forward in your riding. 


Let me ask you this.......where would you be if Fly suddenly spooked sideways with no warning while you are riding?


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## tinyliny

hoofpic,

you are improving at your riding. don't worry. at about an average pace, from what I can see. it takes a long time to get that good balance in the saddle . just time and miles and different terrain.

just keep inching along and expect progress at its own pace.

a lot of folks forget how long it took them to get where they are today.
I remember, vaguely, wobbling all over the place when learning how to post. while I am not a competitive rider, I can post reasonably freely now, without having to think about it too much. you are getting there, too.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Good grief, I didn't say you aren't improving in some areas, but in the basics of balance and moving with the horse you haven't left the starting gate. Until you can ride with a balanced seat and are in synch with the movement of the your horse and have learned the art of elastic elbows, you aren't going to move forward in your riding.
> 
> 
> Let me ask you this.......where would you be if Fly suddenly spooked sideways with no warning while you are riding?


But like my coach said, IT TAKES TIME. I cant expect to be in balance right away, it is coming. I had this same feeling on the lesson mare and I eventually got balanced on her. All I know is that I felt something last lesson and it was a good feeling. It was the first time in the 5th rides on Fly that I felt this feeling. You can disagree all you want. It was a gut feeling I had.

Like I said before, according to my coach, my mare had an even faster trot last lesson than she did on the 3rd one (where I was just learning to control her trot) and there were times where I was overwhelmed by the fast pace she was trotting at (especially in the corners) because I just still getting used to her trot and it being so different than the lesson mare (shes smaller, more strides, choppier trot), but if my coach didnt tell me this, I wouldnt have known. Why? Because Im getting used to her trot and getting more comfortable with her. That is a good sign.


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## jenkat86

@Hoofpic, Prairie is being blunt with you, but I do feel she is 100% correct. After your first recorded video of you trotting on Fly, I think it was around May 6th (?) several of us recommended you try trotting lessons on a lunge line to help improve your balance and encourage you to find your seat. Fast forward to this last video- you are trotting on a lung line. That is something your trainer would bypass if she didn't feel it were necessary. 

Don't take this particular criticism as someone saying you haven't improved at all. There are several different planes of horsemanship and riding and while you are improving with some of them, other's are taking you longer to find. There is nothing wrong with that. Use this as a tool to highlight the areas you are weaker in and then ask for ways to help improve that. @Prairie already suggested a great exercise with a barrel that would probably help you improve. Riding bareback (at the walk) while doing serpentines and ground poles would help too. Also, a LOT of walk to halt transitions and trot to halt transitions would help.

And you are right...it does take time!


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> @Hoofpic, Prairie is being blunt with you, but I do feel she is 100% correct. After your first recorded video of you trotting on Fly, I think it was around May 6th (?) several of us recommended you try trotting lessons on a lunge line to help improve your balance and encourage you to find your seat. Fast forward to this last video- you are trotting on a lung line. That is something your trainer would bypass if she didn't feel it were necessary.
> 
> Don't take this particular criticism as someone saying you haven't improved at all. There are several different planes of horsemanship and riding and while you are improving with some of them, other's are taking you longer to find. There is nothing wrong with that. Use this as a tool to highlight the areas you are weaker in and then ask for ways to help improve that. @Prairie already suggested a great exercise with a barrel that would probably help you improve. Riding bareback (at the walk) while doing serpentines and ground poles would help too. Also, a LOT of walk to halt transitions and trot to halt transitions would help.
> 
> And you are right...it does take time!


Yes I know that but no one can expect me to be perfectly balanced on her in just 5 lessons. I know I am more balanced on her today than I was 5 lessons ago. I know what I have to work on, it will come with time and I am doing everything I can to make that time happen sooner rather than later and Im confident I can achieve this. For instance, Sky wanted me to unlock my hips when steering and not just turn my head, I did that in the next lesson. Its helped me immensely. Drafty wanted me to start posting each time as soon as I give her the que to trot, I did that in the next lesson. Again, its helped me immensely (and Fly is happier). I was also suggested to get longer reins, I did just that and I immeidately felt the benefits in having that extra 2ft length.

My coach said we will be getting into serpentines fairly soon here.

I had no problem with my trainer putting me on a lunge line. I even asked for it prior. Why? We did this exact same thing on the lesson mare when I started riding her and it made a difference in my balance on her. Its amazing how much more you can key in on something when you take away the steering. 

But I know (cause she told me) a big reason why she put me on a lunge line that lesson was because my mare was being cheeky that day and had a bit of an attitude and had so much energy in her. Trainer lunged her for a few mins before I got on her. I trusted her judgement and call on that. ANd you know what? the next lesson I will do the same. I will ask her to put me on a lunge line again.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I know that but no one can expect me to be perfectly balanced on her in just 5 lessons.


Nobody is expecting you to be perfectly balanced by now except for you. At least that's what is seemed a few pages back. You were adamant that you were comfortable trotting and we all saw something different. So now that you are admitting that you have room for improvement...great! Let's move forward! I am confident you will achieve it too, but it's like you said, it takes TIME, and practice. 



Hoofpic said:


> My coach said we will be getting into serpentines fairly soon here.


I feel like the circles are beneficial, but they aren't making you use your body enough. So IMO, the sooner you start doing things that demand your balance then the quicker you will start improving.


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## karliejaye

Since you seem interested in off the horse exercises to help build core and balance, I have a few more suggestions I had gotten from a physical therapist and clinician years ago.


1. Get a big exercise ball and sit on it as much as you can. While watching tv, while eating, while working. The unstable seat makes you constantly move slightly and gently to stay balanced.
When you get sitting down on the ball, try kneeling on it. First on all 4's then on your knees:


















When I practice consistently I can hold a kneel and even "post" with my hips and stay balanced for 5-10 minutes at a time. It takes work and patience.


2. Make or find a balance board. The concept is similar as above, but you can stand on it and bend your knees as if in riding position. Again, do it in front of the tv or any other activity and multi task.


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## greentree

This is going to sound strange to you Hoofpic, but maybe someone can explain it better than I.......

Whenever my lesson felt the worst, it was the best. If it felt like I did everything right, then it was the worst.....I used to think this was my self deprecating personality, or hormonal, or something, but it would show in a dressage score, every time. If I came out of the ring going"yes! What a good ride!", my score would be about 5 points lower than I thought.....if I came out saying,"man, we could have made a much rounder circle, and she did not really stretch...", then I would get a high score and a ribbon.

It was the same with lessons. The harder the work, the WORSE it feels. And with training. Never say, "hey, watch THIS....." Recipe for disaster!

I recommended that Daniel Stewart book about balanced riding a LONG time ago.....also Sally Swifts book has a LOT of visual cues for things like body, arm and hand position that MAY help you get some of these more ephemeral concepts.


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## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Since you seem interested in off the horse exercises to help build core and balance, I have a few more suggestions I had gotten from a physical therapist and clinician years ago.
> 
> 
> 1. Get a big exercise ball and sit on it as much as you can. While watching tv, while eating, while working. The unstable seat makes you constantly move slightly and gently to stay balanced.
> When you get sitting down on the ball, try kneeling on it. First on all 4's then on your knees:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I practice consistently I can hold a kneel and even "post" with my hips and stay balanced for 5-10 minutes at a time. It takes work and patience.
> 
> 
> 2. Make or find a balance board. The concept is similar as above, but you can stand on it and bend your knees as if in riding position. Again, do it in front of the tv or any other activity and multi task.


Thanks, I will try to find a balance board today. Not sure where id get such a thing but ill look around this afternoon.

The ball, I would get but I have this phobia with me sitting on those balls. Im always worried about them popping on me even though I know they can handle my weight. I know, this is a story for another day but even me just looking at those pics it makes me a bit queezy inside.


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## karliejaye

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, I will try to find a balance board today. Not sure where id get such a thing but ill look around this afternoon.
> 
> The ball, I would get but I have this phobia with me sitting on those balls. Im always worried about them popping on me even though I know they can handle my weight. I know, this is a story for another day but even me just looking at those pics it makes me a bit queezy inside.


I probably shouldn't tell this story, for fear of making your fear worse, but I have had one pop before. My mom found it at a garage sale, so who knows what is had been through and how old it was. It startled me, but I wasn't hurt. I have never had any problems with them from the store and I even bounce around on them quite a bit. There are "anti-burst" ones as well.


As for the balance board, I made one with a rectangular piece of 3/4" plywood and a screw in wall protector thing:


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## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> I probably shouldn't tell this story, for fear of making your fear worse, but I have had one pop before. My mom found it at a garage sale, so who knows what is had been through and how old it was. It startled me, but I wasn't hurt. I have never had any problems with them from the store and I even bounce around on them quite a bit. There are "anti-burst" ones as well.
> 
> 
> As for the balance board, I made one with a rectangular piece of 3/4" plywood and a screw in wall protector thing:


Thanks. I dont know why but Im always uncomfortable sitting on balls. I dont mind rolling and bouncing them though. I know theyre very good for your back though but IMO I just see it as an item that will eventually break over time.

Im too lazy to build a balance board so I found a sports store near my house who has some for sale for relatively cheap so I will buy one today.

So if I stand on the board and squat down (into a riding position), I can mimic my position from the saddle?


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Nobody is expecting you to be perfectly balanced by now except for you. At least that's what is seemed a few pages back. You were adamant that you were comfortable trotting and we all saw something different. So now that you are admitting that you have room for improvement...great! Let's move forward! I am confident you will achieve it too, but it's like you said, it takes TIME, and practice.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like the circles are beneficial, but they aren't making you use your body enough. So IMO, the sooner you start doing things that demand your balance then the quicker you will start improving.


Well I felt that because I said that i felt great after the last ride and that I have made progress, that just because Im not balanced in the seat yet that I have not made any gains at all. 

Like if I was to say that I noticed a change in Fly (a good change), and one of the reasons why is because my balance is getting better and Im starting to post as soon as I ask her to trot (not when she actually trots), then I would be told different. So I wont say anything.


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## Skyseternalangel

Every moment spent on the horse is a moment of learning. Improvement happens when you allow your body to be with the horse. That takes time. 

I won't comment on the 5 lessons thing. Number of lessons doesn't matter, trust me. It's the quality of the lesson. 5 lessons with one trainer can be completely different to 5 lessons with another trainer. 

Fly is learning too, and centrifugal force on a circle makes it more challenging to find balance, but if you can find it on a circle then straight will be so easy.

What I see in your videos doesn't matter, because you are starting out and developing what it feels like to ride a horse when you don't have as much muscle memory. It can be hard, and you SHOULD celebrate your small changes, they're so important to notice.

But as a beginner you are far from moving with your horse, and that's okay!!!! Other posters may have seemed like they were shooting down your balloon parade but they're being very directly honest. If you were more humble about learning, instead of claiming to be so great in other threads and then getting so defensive when you're offered comments or whatnot... then I'm pretty sure you would be receiving only glowing comments of encouragement.

If I go out there and claim "oh man guys, my canter seat is AMAZING" when in reality it kind of sucks but each ride it gets better, then people wouldn't take me seriously.

Allow yourself (and Fly) to learn. Don't get a big head about learning, but you're allowed to be proud of your steps forward on your learning journey to riding a horse.


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## jenkat86

egrogan said:


> And to add to the above, you feeling more confident and you still being stiff and unbalanced are not mutually exclusive. You DO look better. You do NOT look balanced and secure in the saddle. That is what you're working towards, and you just need more time in the saddle to make progress. Lunge lessons are great for this, and totally agree with the people who suggested you might ask for some stirrupless lunge lessons to keep moving forward.


I just want you to read what @egrogan said again. The two things are not mutually exclusive. You can have one without the other. There is no finish line with this. You can ALWAYS be better than you were yesterday. Appreciate the fact that outside, unbiased, fresh eyes are watching you ride and can critique you along the way.


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## greentree

That is IT, jenkat!! There is NO finish line!! There is never going to be a day when someone says "NOW you know everything, and it is perfect!"


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Every moment spent on the horse is a moment of learning. Improvement happens when you allow your body to be with the horse. That takes time.
> 
> I won't comment on the 5 lessons thing. Number of lessons doesn't matter, trust me. It's the quality of the lesson. 5 lessons with one trainer can be completely different to 5 lessons with another trainer.
> 
> Fly is learning too, and centrifugal force on a circle makes it more challenging to find balance, but if you can find it on a circle then straight will be so easy.
> 
> What I see in your videos doesn't matter, because you are starting out and developing what it feels like to ride a horse when you don't have as much muscle memory. It can be hard, and you SHOULD celebrate your small changes, they're so important to notice.
> 
> But as a beginner you are far from moving with your horse, and that's okay!!!! Other posters may have seemed like they were shooting down your balloon parade but they're being very directly honest. If you were more humble about learning, instead of claiming to be so great in other threads and then getting so defensive when you're offered comments or whatnot... then I'm pretty sure you would be receiving only glowing comments of encouragement.
> 
> If I go out there and claim "oh man guys, my canter seat is AMAZING" when in reality it kind of sucks but each ride it gets better, then people wouldn't take me seriously.
> 
> Allow yourself (and Fly) to learn. Don't get a big head about learning, but you're allowed to be proud of your steps forward on your learning journey to riding a horse.


I am celebrating when I make even small improvements and 
Im making sure to give Fly a scratch with my inside hand to telk her good job when she does what I ask. I feel this is very important for a young horse.

I dont want to come across as being over my head or Mr know it all. Im very grateful for this forum and being able to have other eyes on me to critique.

Most importantly, Im having fun and the last lesson was where it really sunk in. Not that i wasnt having fun in the previous rides but the last ride just gave me a very good and soothing gut feeling moving forward


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I just want you to read what @egrogan said again. The two things are not mutually exclusive. You can have one without the other. There is no finish line with this. You can ALWAYS be better than you were yesterday. Appreciate the fact that outside, unbiased, fresh eyes are watching you ride and can critique you along the way.


Dont worry I am, and Im very thankful for all the advice on here and the luxury of having outside advice. I jist dont want anyone thining Im over confident which is not my intention.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. But you need to watch most if not all of it cause I really settled in nicely as the lesson went on. It was a big improvement from my past lesson and things have really started to feel natural for me on Fly in terms of my balance.


'
When I say I watched some I mean I watched start, middle and end so my comment still stands.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> '
> When I say I watched some I mean I watched start, middle and end so my comment still stands.


ok then


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## Hoofpic

I got my balance board yesterday, was pretty cheap. 

So I stand on it basically in a squating position and this should help me with my balance in the saddle? Even though in the saddle only some of my body weight is in the stirrups, and on the board, all of my weight is on the board.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I dont want to come across as being over my head or Mr know it all.


Well sadly often you do, and fir that reason I am out of here, You have a lot of knowledgable people trying to help you, and so often all you want to do is explain why they are wrong.

I said awhile a go that sharing every ride is not a good idea...look you have a coach, you're paying her to teach you, let her do her job. Wait a couple of months then post a video so people can actually see how far you have come. Riding just is not a thing where you get better every time, sometimes it all goes wrong, but more often you just get one thing sorted, and something else goes pear shaped.

Riding should be a journey for you and your horse, not a race, so enjoy being with her, enjoy your riding.

Good luck


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## karliejaye

Hoofpic said:


> I got my balance board yesterday, was pretty cheap.
> 
> So I stand on it basically in a squating position and this should help me with my balance in the saddle? Even though in the saddle only some of my body weight is in the stirrups, and on the board, all of my weight is on the board.




That is one good way to use it. It doesn't mimic EXACTLY the balance in a saddle, but it works on your core and balance, and often that carries over into the saddle. 


Here's a sports therapy page with suggested exercises. I particularly like 6 and 7: http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/r...er-leg-ankle-exercises/wobble-board-exercises


You can also sit on it and try to balance in a v sit.


*Here's my theory on why core strength helps balance in the saddle:*
The "core" is made up of multiple layers of muscle, some large, some very small, but modern living doesn't demand much of them, so most of us are not very toned in these muscles. When we go to do a balance activity we often rely on other muscles such as our glutes, hamstrings, and shoulders as well as the superficial abs to try and balance. This leads to tension in the saddle and difficulty following. Strengthening the core muscles (beyond just the abs) requires dynamic movement and instability that the body has to work with strength but not tension to achieve balance. That is where sitting on a barrel, standing or sitting on a balance board, or using an exercise ball comes in handy. You CAN incorporate movements that mimic riding, but it is not entirely necessary to achieve core strengthening.


Just my 2 cents on the matter, and after failing a national level riding exam (USPC) one year, I went to a clinician for a few weeks a few times on my school breaks. She is also a physical therapist and had me adopt a strict core strengthening program. I believe it is her advise that helped me up my riding and pass the exam on my second attempt. Food for thought.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Well sadly often you do, and fir that reason I am out of here, You have a lot of knowledgable people trying to help you, and so often all you want to do is explain why they are wrong.
> 
> I said awhile a go that sharing every ride is not a good idea...look you have a coach, you're paying her to teach you, let her do her job. Wait a couple of months then post a video so people can actually see how far you have come. Riding just is not a thing where you get better every time, sometimes it all goes wrong, but more often you just get one thing sorted, and something else goes pear shaped.
> 
> Riding should be a journey for you and your horse, not a race, so enjoy being with her, enjoy your riding.
> 
> Good luck


Well Im sorry you feel that way, its not my intention at all.

I will re-consider again not sharing my rides for a couple months. I will still share any other videos that I take working with Fly but I will hold off on the next couple months sharing my riding videos cause the next time I want to share with you guys, I want to show you that Ive made significant progress.


----------



## Prairie

There's no doubt that those core muscle are critical to riding, just like your legs, seat, and weight are. Without the strength and control of your core, the other natural aids can't perform to correctly cue the horse nor will you be a balanced rider, able to quickly adjust to whatever silliness your horse may throw at you or actually help the horse easily negotiate challenging conditions such as climbing up and down steep hills or sailing over jumps. 


In reality, balance is critical to many activities in our lives from walking or riding a bike on to adjusting to varying terrain or climbing stairs, standing on one foot, or even just sitting down and then standing up. It really shouldn't be that hard to transition your sense of balance over to a horse nor take "x" number of rides to adjust riding balanced on another horse. Back when I took lessons as a beginner horse crazy kid, by lesson #8 we were cantering circles, with simple lead changes for figure 8's-----that was going from never having actually really ridden a horse and then riding 8 different horses in the succeeding lessons so we learned to adjust to the individual we were riding! When DD was 4 yo and got her first pony, she was cantering a week later while attending a clinic for young riders and knew how to cue for leads. 


Now I'm out here for the time being since Hoofpic doesn't seem to want to be honestly critiqued. Tally Ho!


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## ChristineNJ

This is getting very boring. I'm outa here also!! Way too many posts and this poster just wants attention.........his other posts were all about getting fired from his job and what should he do.....finally it was cut short by the administrator. He just keeps asking "What should I do?" and then contradicting the advice & arguing about it. This journal should be shut down also!!:icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes:


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## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> That is one good way to use it. It doesn't mimic EXACTLY the balance in a saddle, but it works on your core and balance, and often that carries over into the saddle.
> 
> 
> Here's a sports therapy page with suggested exercises. I particularly like 6 and 7: http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/r...er-leg-ankle-exercises/wobble-board-exercises
> 
> 
> You can also sit on it and try to balance in a v sit.
> 
> 
> *Here's my theory on why core strength helps balance in the saddle:*
> The "core" is made up of multiple layers of muscle, some large, some very small, but modern living doesn't demand much of them, so most of us are not very toned in these muscles. When we go to do a balance activity we often rely on other muscles such as our glutes, hamstrings, and shoulders as well as the superficial abs to try and balance. This leads to tension in the saddle and difficulty following. Strengthening the core muscles (beyond just the abs) requires dynamic movement and instability that the body has to work with strength but not tension to achieve balance. That is where sitting on a barrel, standing or sitting on a balance board, or using an exercise ball comes in handy. You CAN incorporate movements that mimic riding, but it is not entirely necessary to achieve core strengthening.
> 
> Just my 2 cents on the matter, and after failing a national level riding exam (USPC) one year, I went to a clinician for a few weeks a few times on my school breaks. She is also a physical therapist and had me adopt a strict core strengthening program. I believe it is her advise that helped me up my riding and pass the exam on my second attempt. Food for thought.


Thanks for the info, I will check out that link.

I have also been doing core excersizes (try to dedicate 10mins a night for them), this includes sit ups, crunchies, etc.

Sitting on a balance board would mimic riding? I never would have thought of this. Thanks for the info.

I went to see my chiro two last week to get my back adjusted and he said that my gluts and hams are very tight. From what Im not sure (my guess is riding) cause when I started to ride more and longer, my legs got a bit sore lol.


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## whisperbaby22

I disagree, this is a journal, not in the critique section. This is just the way this person operates. Is the horse being abused in any way? I enjoy the journal section because people are open enough to put their thoughts out there. If you no longer want to respond that is fine, just read or don't even come here.


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## gypsygirl

ChristineNJ said:


> This is getting very boring. I'm outa here also!! Way too many posts and this poster just wants attention.........his other posts were all about getting fired from his job and what should he do.....finally it was cut short by the administrator. He just keeps asking "What should I do?" and then contradicting the advice & arguing about it. This journal should be shut down also!!:icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes:


Why would you say someone else's journal should be shut down ?


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## Rainaisabelle

In the end it's hoof pics journal to document his progress  I am excited to see the progress he and fly make.


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## Hoofpic

I put Flys new halter on today. She was a bit unsure about the bright orange (she spooked when i was putting it on) so i took a couple mins to just let her see it, rubbed it against her nose, then when i put it back on after she was fine. I didnt think she was uncomfortable from the bright orange at first.BO and trainer got a good laugh out of the embroidery but said "cheeky mare" suits her haha.

Everyone loves it. I can see this halter getting a lot of good laughs.

I forgot to take a pic but I will tomorrow. Fits really well.


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## Hoofpic

Fly got her feet trimmed today. My farrier has become one of my best sources for info over the oast few months. I look forward to him coming out, I learn something from him each time. We always chat each time and he doesnt mind at all answering any questions i may have.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> In the end it's hoof pics journal to document his progress  I am excited to see the progress he and fly make.





whisperbaby22 said:


> I disagree, this is a journal, not in the critique section. This is just the way this person operates. Is the horse being abused in any way? I enjoy the journal section because people are open enough to put their thoughts out there. If you no longer want to respond that is fine, just read or don't even come here.


Thanks. I know Im not going to be everyones fan and if I make people upset then its not on purpose.


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## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> Fly got her feet trimmed today. My farrier has become one of my best sources for info over the oast few months. I look forward to him coming out, I learn something from him each time. We always chat each time and he doesnt mind at all answering any questions i may have.


I started with a new trimmer going on 4 months ago now, and I've learned so much watching him. I feel a bit shy asking him too many questions because I know he has a busy job getting though multiple horses at our barn. 

But, it's taken him four months to undue what a bad trimmer did in just two months, so I appreciate his willingness to teach me about angles and how his work on the heels is affecting my mare's frogs and overall hoof health. It's been an interesting transformation, and we still have some work to do. Good trimmers are with every penny-I didn't quite realize just how different a good vs bad trim was until the first farrier I used on Isabel retired last winter, and I had someone else work on her that just didn't do things in a way that made sense for my horse. Luckily another boarder at the barn found our current guy, and he makes a special trip to our part of the state just to work on a few horses at our barn. 

I still don't feel nearly knowledgeable about feet and horse nutrition-but have learned a ton on this forum over the years...


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## greentree

Maybe she doesn't like orange...


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I started with a new trimmer going on 4 months ago now, and I've learned so much watching him. I feel a bit shy asking him too many questions because I know he has a busy job getting though multiple horses at our barn.
> 
> But, it's taken him four months to undue what a bad trimmer did in just two months, so I appreciate his willingness to teach me about angles and how his work on the heels is affecting my mare's frogs and overall hoof health. It's been an interesting transformation, and we still have some work to do. Good trimmers are with every penny-I didn't quite realize just how different a good vs bad trim was until the first farrier I used on Isabel retired last winter, and I had someone else work on her that just didn't do things in a way that made sense for my horse. Luckily another boarder at the barn found our current guy, and he makes a special trip to our part of the state just to work on a few horses at our barn.
> 
> I still don't feel nearly knowledgeable about feet and horse nutrition-but have learned a ton on this forum over the years...


Thats the thing. I could easily just use the BO's farrier (one farrier times all the horses on the property, even all the boarders use her), but I went into this barn with already having a great farrier.

I could have (and did consider) switching when I moved here. Even the BO and trainer will bring in your horse to get them trimmed. But one thing, I wanted to be there each time Fly got her feet done simply cause it was a great time for me to learn about feet and farriers.

Not saying that I couldnt do that if I was to use the BO's farrier, but she only comes out in the daytimes during the weekdays, so I dont have that flexibility when booking with her and seeing if I can come out when she is there. I havent even met her (she comes by every 2 weeks).

I like to observe and watch my farrier trim because Im learning. My farrier now fixed Fly's feet in just 2 or 3 trims. If you guys remember, Fly use to have every foot at different angles and the previous farrier was lazy and took too much heel off. Well my farrier now got her perfectly balanced in just 3 trims and shes been perfect since.

Today I learned that horses have two times a year where their hoofs really go through a growth spike. Cause I was asking my farrier about why my mares frogs got so big and he told me about this growth spike that hits just as winter ends and the grass starts to come back up.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Fly got her feet trimmed today. My farrier has become one of my best sources for info over the oast few months. I look forward to him coming out, I learn something from him each time. We always chat each time and he doesnt mind at all answering any questions i may have.


It sounds like you have a good one, and those seem hard to find! Take care of him!


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> It sounds like you have a good one, and those seem hard to find! Take care of him!


Yes he is a great guy, very chatty and loves to share his knowledge which is a great quality for a farrier IMO. He talks about his horses with me every time he comes out and Ive learned that he has a fairly extensive background on training horses.


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## Hoofpic

I rode Fly over the bridge today! And we did logs and rode her outside for the very first time.


----------



## Knave

Wow! Congratulations!


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

That's awesome!


----------



## Hoofpic

^ Thanks, very good lesson today. It was really nice experiecing another place other than the arena. Im sure it was refreshing for Fly as well.

Trainer didnt get on her first today cause she feels im capable getting on her right away.

So, so far Ive experienced twice, a Fly with a lot of energy in her and has a super fast trot that I had to slow down and get under control. 

Well today for the first time, I experienced a lazy Fly who didnt have much energy in her so i got a feel for the other end of the spectrum. Cause horses will be different on each day and you wont know what you may get, so I will need to know how to handke different situations.

Today was a prime example. So I had to work on my timing more today to keep her going and squeeze with my legs as I feel shes starting to slow down.

Coach started me on the lunge line again today and will do again on Sunday.

The logs were great. I didnt even look at the logs, jist looked straight ahead as if I was on the ground. I got her to walk dead centre across the logs.

Then I did a couple 20m circles at a trot between jumping posts. I liked this. It really makes you work on your tiking and your arch to maintain your circle

She went on the bridge the first time I asked. I then made her go back on but this time to stand on, then woah, and she walks off when i tell her. Im very proud of her.

So that makes me has. How much more meaningful or powerful is walking around and over obstacles when youre on a horses back vs on the ground?


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## greentree

Good job! Gosh, I really never thought about anything I did with my horses as being more meaningful than the other....certainly no more " powerful".


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Good job! Gosh, I really never thought about anything I did with my horses as being more meaningful than the other....certainly no more " powerful".


Thanks. Well I guess "meaningful" would be a better word than "powerful".

At the end, my coach let me ride Fly at a walk just around the barn property. I loved it. Definitely alot more that you have to work withcause of the extra distrations.

Coach was a bit surprised in how calm me and Fly were when we rode outside the barn. We were both very relaxed. She said that not every horse would be that calm (the very first time experiencing it) and its paying off for me because of all the groundwork that ive done with Fly. Is that true? Groundwork can tie into something like that?

My BO was watching me ride Fly for the first time in the outdoor arena and he was sitting on his gator (pretending not to watch, cause he said he doesnt want to make me feel nervous), but i knew he was still observing. He came to me after and said i had a good ride. So that was really nice to hear.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Groundwork can tie into it because it builds trust and respect.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Groundwork can tie into it because it builds trust and respect.


Thats true but it just made me wonder...is riding a horse outside of the arena for the very first time and having them stay calm and behaved usually a pretty significant task to ask of them?

Cause coach said that shes seen a lot of people who will try to ride their horse outside the arena and around the barn but the horse wont be as calm or collected, or they will get all nervous or worked up and its all because they dont have the groundwork.

In fact, one of the boarders daughters rode one of their mares (who is only a year older than Fly and according to the owner is more green than Fly), outside the arena, around the barn about a month ago and she got bucked off and fell bad on her hip. Thankfully she is okay. 

I was there when it happened and saw the horse get worked up, but didnt know she bucked the rider off.


----------



## TimWhit91

Some horses are just more easy going and more the "born broke" type than others. Fly seems to be that kind, you are lucky! Some green horses would flip out going outside the first time and being ridden by a green rider. 

Good job on the progress, I 5hink Fly is going to be a great partner for you


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> ^ Thanks, very good lesson today. It was really nice experiecing another place other than the arena. Im sure it was refreshing for Fly as well.
> 
> Trainer didnt get on her first today cause she feels im capable getting on her right away.
> 
> So, so far Ive experienced twice, a Fly with a lot of energy in her and has a super fast trot that I had to slow down and get under control.
> 
> Well today for the first time, I experienced a lazy Fly who didnt have much energy in her so i got a feel for the other end of the spectrum. Cause horses will be different on each day and you wont know what you may get, so I will need to know how to handke different situations.
> 
> Today was a prime example. So I had to work on my timing more today to keep her going and squeeze with my legs as I feel shes starting to slow down.
> 
> Coach started me on the lunge line again today and will do again on Sunday.
> 
> The logs were great. I didnt even look at the logs, jist looked straight ahead as if I was on the ground. I got her to walk dead centre across the logs.
> 
> Then I did a couple 20m circles at a trot between jumping posts. I liked this. It really makes you work on your tiking and your arch to maintain your circle
> 
> She went on the bridge the first time I asked. I then made her go back on but this time to stand on, then woah, and she walks off when i tell her. Im very proud of her.
> 
> So that makes me has. *How much more meaningful or powerful is walking around and over obstacles when youre on a horses back vs on the ground?*


*
*
you had a great lesson . don't cloud your happiness with unnecessary cogitation.


----------



## tinaev

Hoofpic said:


> Cause horses will be different on each day and you wont know what you may get, so I will need to know how to handke different situations


A fried of mine has a quote she says a lot:

"Ride the horse you have today, not the horse you EXPECTED to have."

I find I often wind up repeating it to myself to remind me that just because I have a 22 year old been there done that, doesn't mean he's always going to act like one. Sometimes you have to alter your plans and just go with the flow.


----------



## Hoofpic

TimWhit91 said:


> Some horses are just more easy going and more the "born broke" type than others. Fly seems to be that kind, you are lucky! Some green horses would flip out going outside the first time and being ridden by a green rider.
> 
> Good job on the progress, I 5hink Fly is going to be a great partner for you


Thanks for the answer. This was why I was asking in the first place, cause I didnt know. Now I do. I had no idea that some green horses would flip out going outside for the first time with a green rider.



tinyliny said:


> [/B]
> you had a great lesson . don't cloud your happiness with unnecessary cogitation.


Ok i wont.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> A fried of mine has a quote she says a lot:
> 
> "Ride the horse you have today, not the horse you EXPECTED to have."
> 
> I find I often wind up repeating it to myself to remind me that just because I have a 22 year old been there done that, doesn't mean he's always going to act like one. Sometimes you have to alter your plans and just go with the flow.


I agree and thats why today was a great learning for me because I got on a horse who was lazy and unmotivated and didnt have much energy in her so I had to adjust. Ive been on a lazy horse before (the lesson mare), but not yet, up until today.


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## EliRose

Believe us now that Fly is not reactive  ?


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## Hoofpic

Going over the logs and bridge. I edited out my ride.


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## Hoofpic

http://www.youtube.com/embed/stMvxUqu9Eo


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Believe us now that Fly is not reactive  ?


Do you mean because she was completely calm and unphased when I was on her back outside of the barn?


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose,

Its funny you mentioned that because it would be funny if I was to tell me outside trainer that I rode Fly outside today for the first time, cause it was just 4-5 weeks ago that she said...

"If I were you, I definitely would not ride her and can you imagine what she would be like riding outside?"...."she would be spooking and you wouldn't know how to handle the situation"....."You both are a long ways before even considering riding outside".

LOL gives me a good laugh.

Fly, pat on your back cause you just proved her wrong! So proud of you.


----------



## Hoofpic

There is one thing that the previous owner of Fly told me last summer that I will forever rememeber.

She said that Fly just goes with the flow when you teach her new things and is extremely calm. She may be a bit uncomfortable at first to new things but once you show her, she will put in the extra effort trying her best to make you proud of her.

And I think thats a great quality to have, Im very lucky to have that in Fly. I bring this up because lately I've been seeing this great trait in her.


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## Skyseternalangel

Re the reactive thing, my horse would have huffed puffed, jumped sideways and bolted across the arena if my trainer moved giant pallets behind him. He is a reactive horse, lol.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Re the reactive thing, my horse would have huffed puffed, jumped sideways and bolted across the arena if my trainer moved giant pallets behind him. He is a reactive horse, lol.


Oh I see what you mean now!

Right, because in my video, I had Fly somewhat close to my coach while she was moving the huge pallettes out. Once Fly saw them, she wanted to go right up to them, but I told her WOAH until she was done setting them up.

Even the very first time I pulled the pallettes out, I had her tied as I was pulling out the pallettes from my stall where I keep my stuff and she wasn't phased at all. She was looking to see what it was, but no snorting.

I still think Fly is a reactive horse, just not nearly as reactive as I was claiming she was a week ago. I think the things that she is being reactive to in the surroundings is not out of the ordinary for any horse to be attentative to.

Over the past few days, Ive been working on keeping her focus on me when I request it. So when im leading her, if she turns her head to look away, I am doing exactly what Warwick Schiller did in his video. Yes I have finally put it in practice and starting working on it. Ive only done it once so far in terms of a mini lesson with Fly (so I dont think she quite knows 100% what im asking when im all of a sudden changing direction in the opposite way that she is focused towards) but I will be doing it again and again in the next few days and hoping she catches on. And hopefully once it sinks in with her, that when Im leading her and she looks away, all I will need to do is just give a light bump on the lead and her focus is back on me just like that.

I can do that right now (it can and has worked), but its also hasnt worked at times without having to give numerous light bumps on the line and for me, thats nagging and I dont want to be nagging.

At the end of that quick 5min lesson with Fly from a couple days ago, I did start to notice a bit of a change in her. What she likes to do all the time is turn her head away to look elsewhere. We could be leading, we could be just standing next to each other. So after a few times of me all of a sudden walking off and changing direction on her, she did start to have her head turned in towards me more (so that told me, that she was starting to pay attention to me more).


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## Rainaisabelle

I think you're confusing responsive with reactive


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I think you're confusing responsive with reactive


I think you are right as well. Responsive is a much better way to describe her.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Thats true but it just made me wonder...is riding a horse outside of the arena for the very first time and having them stay calm and behaved usually a pretty significant task to ask of them?
> 
> Cause coach said that shes seen a lot of people who will try to ride their horse outside the arena and around the barn but the horse wont be as calm or collected, or they will get all nervous or worked up and its all because they dont have the groundwork.
> 
> In fact, one of the boarders daughters rode one of their mares (who is only a year older than Fly and according to the owner is more green than Fly), outside the arena, around the barn about a month ago and she got bucked off and fell bad on her hip. Thankfully she is okay.
> 
> I was there when it happened and saw the horse get worked up, but didnt know she bucked the rider off.


The horse feeds off the rider. If you're calm and relaxed, your horse will be calm and relaxed. 

In the arena, my gelding is usually contrary and he likes to pretend he doesn't understand what you're asking him for. Out on the trail, I can drop my reins completely and he'll just mosey along, happy as a clam. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I am not entirely comfortable riding in arena (don't know why, just not). As I've said before, my gelding has quite a bit of groundwork on him.


----------



## elle1959

Prairie said:


> I sent a message to Admin regarding the video and thread.
> 
> 
> However, it's is more than my opinion that you aren't improving in the basics of riding----balance and being in synch with the movement of the horse. Others have pointed this out too. Until you understand what balance feels like and are moving with the motion of the horse, you're really not improving. You've been BS's before and what you really fail to acknowledge is that as long as you are paying, any trainer is going to tell you that you are improving under their guidance. Unfortunately, there is a huge difference between watching someone ride in balance and moving with the horse and actually doing it.




For heavens sake, he's had all of five lessons on this horse. I think many here are nagging Hoofpic the way he's been accused of nagging his mare. If he feels better, or more confident, let him have that. It will help him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## elle1959

I usually don't come onto threads to critique the tone of them, but I just want to say that this thread reminds me of the first trainer I worked with, who I took some riding lessons with. No matter what I did, nothing was right. All she ever did was pick up on the things I didn't know (which, in the beginning, was everything) or do correctly, criticize, and make me feel bad about myself and like I'd never be able to learn well. 

Instead of finding something to build on, and saying things like, "ok, you're getting that. Now, when that happens, try doing this, also," she'd just nag and say things like, "Did you think you did that right? Well, too bad, you did this, this and this wrong." If I was working on reining, she'd nag about my feet. If I was working on my feet, she'd nag me about my midsection. 

None of it made any sense because it was all stream of semi-consciousness BS on her part based on what she was seeing, rather than some sort of effort to create a learning experience and a sequence of logical things to work on for the person paying her. She'd see something, then she's spout off about it, without any thought as to what we might be working on or what I might be trying to do that had nothing to do with the thing she was nagging me about. 

She'd tell me to do something, then when I'd do it, she'd talk about something else I did wrong. I couldn't even *tie a knot *for her the right way, as I'd been taught a knot by another horse person that I was perfectly happy with, but it wasn't HER way of tying a knot, so it was WRONG. In retrospect, it's a wonder I didn't give up riding entirely. 

Let me also mention that this is a journal entry, which to me is a place where we can document what we're going through, good and bad, and watch our own progress as it evolves. I can't speak for Hoofpic, but I know that in my own journal when I start receiving a lot of unsolicited advice, I start feeling like people are forgetting what a journal is for. I'm not saying that helpful advice or tips aren't welcome, only that I don't know that they ought to be the focus of a journal thread. 

This is one of the reasons I no longer update my journal as frequently as I used to-- people don't respect the difference between a journal entry and a request for advice or critique. 

So, I'll shut up now.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> The horse feeds off the rider. If you're calm and relaxed, your horse will be calm and relaxed.
> 
> In the arena, my gelding is usually contrary and he likes to pretend he doesn't understand what you're asking him for. Out on the trail, I can drop my reins completely and he'll just mosey along, happy as a clam. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I am not entirely comfortable riding in arena (don't know why, just not). As I've said before, my gelding has quite a bit of groundwork on him.


Thanks. Thats what I thought. Why do you think it is, that you're more comfortable riding outside than the arena? Is your gelding hobble trained?

Now, yesterday we went right from the arena to the outdoor arena without me having to dismount, I didnt get nervous at all. Obviously my trainer guided the way and was close by but I have to say that my emotions and feelings inside stayed the exact same. 

Different environment going outside with all the extra distractions around, but I didnt get nervous at all. I didnt get nervous because I was fully confident that Fly would be just fine outside with me on her back for the first time and she was! I was NOT antipicating anything. I just thought to myself "Ok we are going outside, big deal". It didnt even cross my mind as we went outside, I was just excited cause it was a new surrounding for us and it was nice for a change.

Getting to work on and experience going up and down different slopes for the first time was exciting. I can see it being very beneficial because trail riding is all about slopes and leveraging your upper torso forward and back.

My trainer said she will be having me do more of the outside riding and riding around the barn and have me experience riding both in and out the barn, which IMO is great. She obviously knows that outside and trail riding is where my real interest lies and knows that obstacles is where my real interests lies and thats why yesterday she set up the obstacles for me and pulled out my bridge. 

Over a month ago, I was really feeling that this trainer doesnt care about the partnership that Fly and I have, nor does she care about helping us build it.

Well right now (especially after yesterday), I no longer feel that way about her. She obviously does care about helping Fly and I build our partnership, its just in the saddle, whereas the outside trainer was on the ground.

I know for a fact that my coach and the BO sit down and chat about their students and how their riding is coming along, what each student is into, and the direction theyre going to go with each of them. So Im sure the BO had something to say since Ive started recently about what direction my trainer should go with me, but it was sure nice seeing her changing things up and throwing in some stuff that Fly and I are really into, into my lessons.

Cause down the road when Im capable of riding Fly unsupervised, I very much look forward to riding her at a walk, around the barn property and just taking things in. Its definitely a whole new experience for me that Ive never experienced before, just because Im so used to being on the ground by her side and not on her back.

Thank you everyone once again for convincing me (and I know it wasnt easy), to no longer see my outside trainer and right now was the time it had to be done. There is just no way I could have both trainers work with me at the same time.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Can I ask what hobble tying has to do with confidence?


----------



## Hoofpic

elle1959 said:


> For heavens sake, he's had all of five lessons on this horse. I think many here are nagging Hoofpic the way he's been accused of nagging his mare. If he feels better, or more confident, let him have that. It will help him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you Elle.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Can I ask what hobble tying has to do with confidence?


Im just asking.


----------



## Hoofpic

Heres some pics and a summary from the Mane Event I attend a month ago. Found it on facebook today.

10 Year Anniversary of The Mane Event


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can I ask what hobble tying has to do with confidence?
> 
> 
> 
> Im just asking.
Click to expand...

That wasn't meant to be snarky it was a legit question why do you think hobble tying would have a connection to confidence ?


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> That wasn't meant to be snarky it was a legit question why do you think hobble tying would have a connection to confidence ?


It doesnt, I never said it did.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Sorry I must have misinterpreted, I'm still curious though as to why that is something you would ask?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Why do you think it is, that you're more comfortable riding outside than the arena? Is your gelding hobble trained?


Not sure what my gelding being hobble-trained has to do with anything. :shrug: No, he's not hobble-trained. I don't camp or go on long rides, so I don't see a need for it.

I'm probably more comfortable on the trail because that's where I've ridden the most. I've ridden in an arena a handful of times and one of the first times (it was a round pen, not the arena), I was thrown from the horse and fractured my ankle. So, I have negative associations with enclosed spaces.
@Rainaisabelle , I can understand how you would make that correlation that he's thinking hobble-training has anything to do with confidence riding in the arena.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Sorry I must have misinterpreted, I'm still curious though as to why that is something you would ask?


Well because the horses that Ive known who were hobble tied, the owner usually did stuff like walk them with leads or ropes on the ground, around their legs etc.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'm probably more comfortable on the trail because that's where I've ridden the most. I've ridden in an arena a handful of times and one of the first times (it was a round pen, not the arena), I was thrown from the horse and fractured my ankle. So, I have negative associations with enclosed spaces.


Oh sorry to hear that.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Smeh. It is what it is. Everyone has their thing that bothers them and arena riding happens to be mine. Everyone always laughs at me because it's more logical to be afraid out on the trail (wide open spaces for the horse to bolt and run off in), but on the trail, I'm relaxed and happy. 

I've taken a mare I had ridden twice up a trail similar to this, only more rocky and narrow, with boulders on either side (so close my boots were brushing the rocks as we rode through)...and we were the only pair to do it on the first try. All the other horses balked. We didn't even hesitate.









Put me in an arena, and I have a panic attack.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Smeh. It is what it is. Everyone has their thing that bothers them and arena riding happens to be mine. Everyone always laughs at me because it's more logical to be afraid out on the trail (wide open spaces for the horse to bolt and run off in), but on the trail, I'm relaxed and happy.
> 
> I've taken a mare I had ridden twice up a trail similar to this, only more rocky and narrow, with boulders on either side (so close my boots were brushing the rocks as we rode through)...and we were the only pair to do it on the first try. All the other horses balked. We didn't even hesitate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Put me in an arena, and I have a panic attack.


I would feel more comfortable outside as well, dont worry.


----------



## Hoofpic

I know some of you are going to get upset from me asking this but I need to get it off my chest.

When I catch Fly, (over the past couple weeks or so), she will stop doing what she is doing and turn to face me when I look at her tail. Great! She doesnt always do it the first time, sometimes she will walk away with her friends, sometimes she will run away with her friends. Then when I ask her again to turn to face me, she will.

But most of the times she will no longer come up to me. Sometimes she still will, but most of the time she will just turn to face me, give me her full attention, and then I walk up to halter her.

Should her turning to face me and give me two eyes and ears be good enough?

Should this be a concern?


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I don't think it should be a concern she's just watching you..


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I wouldn't be concerned. She's acknowledging you and waiting for you instead of running away. That should be good enough.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I don't think it should be a concern she's just watching you..


Which is a good thing that she is watching me. I was just concerned that shes not coming up to me as much as before and shes making me come to her.



DraftyAiresMum said:


> I wouldn't be concerned. She's acknowledging you and waiting for you instead of running away. That should be good enough.


Ok thanks. Though, she doesnt always turn to face me right away when I catch her. Sometimes she will walk away and I have to follow her. I say WOAH and she will walk away sometimes run with her friends (depending if her friends get in the way, which I chase them out), but if I chase one horse out, they all follow lol.

Someone here mentioned to me that if she walks away, to put immediate pressure on her and if she wants to walk away, make her work and move her feet. In other words make her run. Then DONT follow her but take my body language off her completely and when she stops running, ask for her to face me again and see if she is willing to stand. If she walks away again, then put a lot of pressure on her again and make her run again. What do you think about this?

I almost think this would be much better for me to do. Because if she walks away or runs off and I have to follow her, what does that achieve? Nothing. But if I put pressure on her and get her to realize that by her walking away or running from me, its going to mean I make her run and move those feet...then she might stop.


----------



## Hoofpic

When you watch my riding videos, which angle/point of view do you guys prefer?


----------



## Hoofpic

I know all the talk on here about you guys saying how wet blankets on my mare would be the most beneficial thing for us in the saddle and me telling her that im the leader.

Well today I think I did just that and it would be my very first wet blankets on my mare. How can I tell? She was so sweaty after. The sweatiest ive ever seen her.

Ive never been so exhausted in my life after a ride lol. And i know she is as well.

I got the go ahead from my coach today to ride my mare UNSUPERVISED at a walk if I wanted. This is great!

Even though i can only walk her on my own, I still think this would be very beneficial for me. I can walk her along the rail, practice serpentines, 20m circles, walk over logs, inbetween logs, around barels.

Today we did more online work (but it was quick) and we did serpentines for the first time with my mare.


----------



## Hoofpic

Also I found our just yesterday that Fly is in heat. But she wasnt any different yesterday when i rode her.

Friend boarder said im very lucky to have her, shes such a good horse


----------



## karliejaye

Indeed you are lucky. Fly seems like a perfect mare for you. One of those "one in a million" horses.


----------



## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Indeed you are lucky. Fly seems like a perfect mare for you. One of those "one in a million" horses.


Thanks. I agree. She is such a sweet mare. Though she still can be cheeky at times, and thats why she has "Cheeky mare" on her halter lol.

Where is everyone? Did I lose everyone? :sad:


----------



## Rainaisabelle

You won't get as quick responses on a journal thread or really answers to strange questions but when you post critique worthy stuff people will respond


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I agree. She is such a sweet mare. Though she still can be cheeky at times, and thats why she has "Cheeky mare" on her halter lol.
> 
> Where is everyone? Did I lose everyone? :sad:


Yes. Mostly gone.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I agree. She is such a sweet mare. Though she still can be cheeky at times, and thats why she has "Cheeky mare" on her halter lol.
> 
> *Where is everyone? Did I lose everyone? :sad:*


*

sorry, it seemed like there wasn't much new, so I thought I'd leave and come back later. 
*


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Definitely like view 1 more than view 2. View two is too distorted. Anyway you can put the camera so it's in the center of the far wall so we can see more equally? (not in the corner as it is at the moment)

As for losing everyone, we are free to move about the cabin. A journal is for your benefit, not to spark followers. This isn't twitter.


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## tinaev

I like view 2. 

Also keep in mind it's a holiday weekend in the US. Many people aren't spending much time online.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> You won't get as quick responses on a journal thread or really answers to strange questions but when you post critique worthy stuff people will respond


I wasnt asking strange questions. :sad:


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> sorry, it seemed like there wasn't much new, so I thought I'd leave and come back later.
> [/B]


Lots have happened with me and Fly over the past few days. I just haven't been posting videos of my rides and wont be for the next while until I know that I have gotten fully balanced and in sync with my mare.

Like my coach said on Sunday, Im getting there but im still not there yet.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Definitely like view 1 more than view 2. View two is too distorted. Anyway you can put the camera so it's in the center of the far wall so we can see more equally? (not in the corner as it is at the moment)
> 
> As for losing everyone, we are free to move about the cabin. A journal is for your benefit, not to spark followers. This isn't twitter.


I like view 2 because the wide angle lens just covers so much more area. Thats what I hated about my riding videos, you couldnt see me in the far right corner and my head would cut off. Way too much off screen footage and that was no good IMO. My camera used in view 1 isnt wide enough to cover an arena. Great camera for in the field and tack area or anything close up, but not good for in the arena. I want to make my videos the most pleasurable for you guys.

When you say center of the far wall. Do you mean the rail where the tack area is? If so, yes I can do that with view 2 because the camera for that would allow me to still have the entire arena in view. I actually have been considering trying this spot for awhile now and I think ill give it a go for the next lesson. This way, it would be easier for you guys to make out details when I go to the far end.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I know all the talk on here about you guys saying how wet blankets on my mare would be the most beneficial thing for us in the saddle and me telling her that im the leader.
> 
> Well today I think I did just that and it would be my very first wet blankets on my mare. How can I tell? She was so sweaty after. The sweatiest ive ever seen her.
> 
> Ive never been so exhausted in my life after a ride lol. And i know she is as well.


The wet saddle blanket thing...it's one of these things that you can take literally, but the point really isn't to just have a sweaty pad. When you work long and hard, the type of work that results in a wet saddle pad, it tends to get a beneficial reaction from the horse in the end. You tend to end up with a quiet, non reactive horse that listens to your cues and aids and it tends to instill a good work ethic into the horses. It sounds like the ride was beneficial to both of you! 

As far as not a lot of traffic on your journal the past few days...it was Memorial Day weekend here in the states, so it could be that just not many people were on the forum at all...?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> The wet saddle blanket thing...it's one of these things that you can take literally, but the point really isn't to just have a sweaty pad. When you work long and hard, the type of work that results in a wet saddle pad, it tends to get a beneficial reaction from the horse in the end. You tend to end up with a quiet, non reactive horse that listens to your cues and aids and it tends to instill a good work ethic into the horses. It sounds like the ride was beneficial to both of you!
> 
> As far as not a lot of traffic on your journal the past few days...it was Memorial Day weekend here in the states, so it could be that just not many people were on the forum at all...?


Thanks.

Not sure if my ride on Sunday was what you would label as "wet saddle blankets" technically but she was really sweaty after and even the pad was wet haha.

We trotted her consistently for almost an hour, going up and down through transitions, doing serpentines, 20m circles, changing direction etc. Looks like we will be doing more of the same in todays lesson. 

Oh right, totally forgot it was a long weekend in the US this past weekend.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Not sure if my ride on Sunday was what you would label as "wet saddle blankets" technically but she was really sweaty after and even the pad was wet haha.
> 
> We trotted her consistently for almost an hour, going up and down through transitions, doing serpentines, 20m circles, changing direction etc. Looks like we will be doing more of the same in todays lesson.


Regardless of what you want to call it, it sounds like it was a very beneficial ride for both of you!


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## egrogan

It's funny how jargony a sport/hobby can be. I had never heard that "wet saddle blankets" term before I joined the Forum. 

I see it as a metaphor for spending lots of time on the horse, practicing in the environment you want them to work in so it becomes second nature to them.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Not sure if my ride on Sunday was what you would label as "wet saddle blankets" technically but she was really sweaty after and even the pad was wet haha.
> 
> We trotted her consistently for almost an hour, going up and down through transitions, doing serpentines, 20m circles, changing direction etc. Looks like we will be doing more of the same in todays lesson.
> 
> Oh right, totally forgot it was a long weekend in the US this past weekend.


Funny how something can be SO decieving, isn't it?? Looks for all the world like those riders are just SITTING up there.....


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Regardless of what you want to call it, it sounds like it was a very beneficial ride for both of you!


I think it was. My coach really wants me to get my balance down and also keeping Fly trotting without stopping, while being able to control her trot's pace.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Funny how something can be SO decieving, isn't it?? Looks for all the world like those riders are just SITTING up there.....


I dont get it.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I dont get it.


You know, how non-riders say riding a horse is easy because the horse does all the work or "just sitting up there." They don't realize how much work it is for the rider too.


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## Hoofpic

Well I have great news! I was able to bridle my mare today for the first time well....fall? 

She lowered her head for me as she saw the bridle. It looks like all the other work that Ive been doing over the past 6 or 7 months has paid off. She didnt fuss at all. She submitted right away, no pulling the head back or fussing.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> You know, how non-riders say riding a horse is easy because the horse does all the work or "just sitting up there." They don't realize how much work it is for the rider too.


Oh okay I get it now. Thanks. Well I have never assumed that the rider didnt have much work, I always knew it was a lot.


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## Hoofpic

So my coach (now that she has given me the green light to ride my mare [walk only] unsupervised), she said that she would really suggest I do this whenever I can in my free time, because when I have lessons with her, it will really benefit me from lesson to lesson. I agree with this.

Even just walking Fly, theres still a lot i can do. Walk along the rail, over logs, around the barrels, over the bridge, work on serpentines, work on my 20m and 15m circles, work on keeping her balanced, work on keeping her attention on me, work on finding my seat more in the saddle, lightness in the reigns, work on mounting her and dismounting her without need a block, etc. (Not that Ive ever used it).

So I am riding my mare twice a week right now with my coach. I figure right now I will probably get on Fly once a week on my own (unsupervised), maybe twice we will see). But I plan on keeping it short, like 20-25mins. Cause shorter rides but more frequent will build that muscle and I really want to build muscle on Fly (or at least loose some of that chub chub). Even at just a walk, having me on her back will still build muscle wont it?

The sad part is, if I do this, I will not have any time at all to work on liberty work with my mare (not that I have been doing this recently since Ive dropped my outside trainer), but you get my point. I still love my liberty but maybe its an unreachable dream for me. Maybe liberty is just too much work and too far of a goal, too high of a mountain for me to climb? I do know that it takes, A LOT of hours that you need to be invested in.


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## greentree

In order to build a muscle, it must be pushed just a little past its normal level, with the exercise getting progressively harder. If you think you riding your mare at a walk is pushing that level, then it will be building muscle. 

To get rid of fat, she needs to expend more calories than she takes in.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> In order to build a muscle, it must be pushed just a little past its normal level, with the exercise getting progressively harder. If you think you riding your mare at a walk is pushing that level, then it will be building muscle.
> 
> To get rid of fat, she needs to expend more calories than she takes in.


Not sure how I can tell if that would be pushing that level. 

How do i get her to expend calories?


----------



## Hoofpic

http://youtu.be/RjGkXpwS_YA?rel=0&vq=hd1080

Skyangel, I tried the cam right in the middle and it wasnt good. Missing too much of the ends of the arena. So found out this was the best spot. Not quite in the corner but about 15ft out. I can do this in any of the parts of the arena, as long as its 10-15ft from the corner.


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## Rainaisabelle

Expend calories basically means exercise. To build muscle they have to be working correctly and out of their threshold. Nutrition also plays a part as they need the right amount of nutrients like protein to build muscle. For example I ride 4 days a week walk/trot with poles and such to help build my TBs muscle.

You can still build muscle walking by doing poles and hill work  once you start trotting you'll be pushing her to build muscle.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Expend calories basically means exercise. To build muscle they have to be working correctly and out of their threshold. Nutrition also plays a part as they need the right amount of nutrients like protein to build muscle. For example I ride 4 days a week walk/trot with poles and such to help build my TBs muscle.
> 
> You can still build muscle walking by doing poles and hill work  once you start trotting you'll be pushing her to build muscle.


Ok thanks, thats what I thought. 

Well, since my mare isnt on grain it might be a bit more of a challenge. Plus she isnt liking the pellete vitamins and minerals that I got for her (which is a shame). 

When I walk her, I will forsure do logs. I know this is really great for them because they are forced to lift their feet. I know awhile back, my outside trainer said that logs does nothing for a horse. :icon_rolleyes:

Im pretty sure that my coach gave me permission to let me ride her in the outdoor arena unsupervised. This will be great because we have some slopes in there.


----------



## Hoofpic

What do you guys think of bridle paths? My coach said I should really consider one on my mare, then when I halter her, it will be easier and I wont have to organize her mane that gets in the way or gets caught underneath the halter strape cause its so thick. I told her that I would consider it but her mane is her most compelling feature. Even though I know, not a lot comes off and you would hardly notice it. Is this done with regular clippers?


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Not sure how I can tell if that would be pushing that level.
> 
> How do i get her to expend calories?


Remember the wet saddle blanket question you had? Rides like that are what will help build muscle. I've been doing a lot of work with CoCo trying to get her to use her back end more and in turn you've seen pictures of how athletic she has gotten. The things I've been doing are: serpentines, walking/trotting poles, small circles, large circles, small to large circles, large to small circles, long backing, upward transitions (walk to trot or walk to lope), downward transitions, rollbacks and some trail work mixed in there too. When on the trail and we come to hills, I always make her walk up and down. More recently I've been asking her to trot up and down, but I'm mindful that she is still using her body. I don't allow her to stretch out during that. The majority of our rides are an hour or longer, and that does include a warm up and cool down. All those exercises can be done on the ground, or mounted and they can also be done at any gait. The key to it all though is to have your horse engage their body during it all.

Back to the liberty thing....I still don't think you are understanding the fundamentals of it. Liberty horsemanship can be compared to reading a novel. In order to be able to read a novel, you have to understand the alphabet first, then you have to understand words, then you have to know how to make a sentence. The work you are doing right now with the riding is all part of "putting the words together" to make a sentence...so don't look at it as you are missing out or slowing down your progress. In reality you are creating a much more stable foundation to liberty by continuing to ride.

It's absolutely NOT an unreachable dream. But like anything worth doing, it's worth doing right. And there is a very long process to this. You have nothing but time and a nice horse to work with...enjoy the process.


----------



## Dehda01

All of my horses have a bridlepath. They range in size depending on the breed. The friesian has a 1.5-2" bridlepath which is just long enough for her halter. You can't even notic it is there. It just makes everything lie flat. Some of my horses that have pulled manes have 2" bridlepaths and some of my long maned arabs have much longer bridlepaths.


----------



## Dehda01

I think you should try to strive to become a horseman first- which is so much more than riding. Keep reading about horses, watch them and keep learning. 

The liberty work can occur at any time, but you are very much learning and Liberty work takes a lot of understanding horse body language and having 100 of your horse's respect and attention and you are not yet there. Baby steps.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Trimming a bridle path isn't really a big decision. It's more for convenience than anything else. I used to but now I don't, there really isn't a difference in my horse's happiness or comfort. 

That angle you recently posted will do, but honestly you want it to be more level not perched up high.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I don't do a bridle path on my gelding, mainly because he hates clippers and using scissors to trim his mane is ridiculously difficult (I roached his mane once with scissors...not fun). Lot of people I know don't bother with a bridle path. 

You're enough taller than Fly that rearranging her mane shouldn't be a huge issue. Now, if she were 17+hh, it might be a bit more work, but...smeh.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Remember the wet saddle blanket question you had? Rides like that are what will help build muscle.


Well, I "think" my lesson from Sunday was what would be considered a wet saddle blanket lesson. I was just working her hard and getting her to really pay attention to me.



> I've been doing a lot of work with CoCo trying to get her to use her back end more and in turn you've seen pictures of how athletic she has gotten. The things I've been doing are: serpentines, walking/trotting poles, small circles, large circles, small to large circles, large to small circles, long backing, upward transitions (walk to trot or walk to lope), downward transitions, rollbacks and some trail work mixed in there too. When on the trail and we come to hills, I always make her walk up and down. More recently I've been asking her to trot up and down, but I'm mindful that she is still using her body. I don't allow her to stretch out during that. The majority of our rides are an hour or longer, and that does include a warm up and cool down. All those exercises can be done on the ground, or mounted and they can also be done at any gait. The key to it all though is to have your horse engage their body during it all.


Thanks, good info to know. So even doing all that at a walk only should still be really beneficial for me. Just yesterday we started working on 15m circles and going from 20m to 15m circles and seeing how round I can make the circle. I find it really helps. 

For warm up, I just have my mare walk around the arena a few times along the rail with me on her back. And then cool down, I get off her and walk her around the arena for 5mins. Is this good enough? The more she was worked, the more walking to cool down. 

Then I dry her off and let her cool down quite a bit before putting her back out.

What do you do to cool down and warm up CoCo?



> Back to the liberty thing....I still don't think you are understanding the fundamentals of it. Liberty horsemanship can be compared to reading a novel. In order to be able to read a novel, you have to understand the alphabet first, then you have to understand words, then you have to know how to make a sentence. The work you are doing right now with the riding is all part of "putting the words together" to make a sentence...so don't look at it as you are missing out or slowing down your progress. In reality you are creating a much more stable foundation to liberty by continuing to ride.


Oh interesting, didnt know this. The outside trainer kept telling me that liberty is build from the ground doing on line work, but IMO im progressing further ahead by doing it from the saddle am I not?

My mare has just had so much groundwork done with her, I dont see any point doing more. Lunging her? Why bother anymore? Even my coach said theres no need to do it unless i absolutely need to.



> It's absolutely NOT an unreachable dream. But like anything worth doing, it's worth doing right. And there is a very long process to this. You have nothing but time and a nice horse to work with...enjoy the process.


No hurry for me to get into liberty


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I think you should try to strive to become a horseman first- which is so much more than riding. Keep reading about horses, watch them and keep learning.
> 
> The liberty work can occur at any time, but you are very much learning and Liberty work takes a lot of understanding horse body language and having 100 of your horse's respect and attention and you are not yet there. Baby steps.


Yes I am doing that.  Personally, I dont think I was ready (still am not) for liberty work. But yet my outside trainer was wanting to teach me it. Makes me wonder if she was doing it because she really felt it was a great approach with me and my mare moving forward, or because she saw it as money coming in for her and she just accomodated to whatever interested me. Because I will be honest, she was so against me riding my mare, that she would rather teach me liberty than having me ride her and IMO that doesnt sound right.


----------



## jenkat86

Absolutely doing all that at the walk can be beneficial! And something to remember...not all walks are created equal. You can push her out into a "working walk" which will engage her muscles more. I do recommend working with your trainer a few times on this first though because it's really easy to push them into a trot.

When I ride my horse, often times I'm pulling her straight out of the pasture prior to my ride. So I want my warm-up to "warm-up" her mind as much as her body. I do a lot of transitions, both directional and speed and really make sure she's soft and supple when responding to my aids. It also shows me what I might need to work on for that day.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Trimming a bridle path isn't really a big decision. It's more for convenience than anything else. I used to but now I don't, there really isn't a difference in my horse's happiness or comfort.
> 
> That angle you recently posted will do, but honestly you want it to be more level not perched up high.


Thanks, I will lower the camera. Thought the extra height would be beneficial but its too high. I like the new angle as well.

It was just my coach who brought it up with me. She thought maybe it would make haltering a bit easier cause then I wouldnt have to push back mane hairs as much.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I don't do a bridle path on my gelding, mainly because he hates clippers and using scissors to trim his mane is ridiculously difficult (I roached his mane once with scissors...not fun). Lot of people I know don't bother with a bridle path.
> 
> You're enough taller than Fly that rearranging her mane shouldn't be a huge issue. Now, if she were 17+hh, it might be a bit more work, but...smeh.


Well not so much about me not being able to reach Flys top of the head but more about not having her mane get tangled under or in the way of the halter and bridle. Not a big deal to me. I think if anything it might be more work to clip than just leave it alone. Fly would not like the sound of the clippers at all.


----------



## SEAmom

Walking for 25 minutes can be perfectly productive, but one has to know what makes the walk productive and what encourages muscle-building. Ask your coach for ideas. I know what works for me and my horse, but I know that it's too much for you. There's no reason your mare can't build muscle at a walk, but it won't be an ambling, round-and-round-we-go walk.


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## Dehda01

Well, yes. Horses must be trained to accept clipping bridlepaths. They don't automatically know it. The first time I turned on the clippers with my new 2yr old friesian she offered to leave the barn but they learn. And now she and be clipped with just a lead around her neck. I am able to just walk into my other horse's stalls or out in the pasture with my trimmers and trim bridlepaths and muzzles without halters or lead ropes. They walk up and lower their polls to offer themselves for the routine. And I have both little and BIG horses. They learn But they need to be taught.


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## Hoofpic

SEAmom said:


> Walking for 25 minutes can be perfectly productive, but one has to know what makes the walk productive and what encourages muscle-building. Ask your coach for ideas. I know what works for me and my horse, but I know that it's too much for you. There's no reason your mare can't build muscle at a walk, but it won't be an ambling, round-and-round-we-go walk.


Thanks Im going to ask my coach on what she would suggest I do to build muscle at a walk. I know the logs are great cause it works their tummy, but I might have to ask my BO about this as well.

One of the things she wants me to work on is making sure to keep my mares attention on me whenever Im on her back. So outside distractions can never be a factor for her ever in the arena.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Well, yes. Horses must be trained to accept clipping bridlepaths. They don't automatically know it. The first time I turned on the clippers with my new 2yr old friesian she offered to leave the barn but they learn. And now she and be clipped with just a lead around her neck. I am able to just walk into my other horse's stalls or out in the pasture with my trimmers and trim bridlepaths and muzzles without halters or lead ropes. They walk up and lower their polls to offer themselves for the routine. And I have both little and BIG horses. They learn But they need to be taught.


Oh nice. After some thinking Im probably just going to do without the bridlepath and that should be fine.

I need to focus on other and more important things like practicing bridling my mare UNSUPERVISED. Yes it went surprisingly great yesterday, but I need to be able to replicate it with no coach around. Like my coach said, put it on, take it off, and repeat it a few times each time for the next while. This will move me much further ahead than just bridling her one time and once or twice a week.

I think the trick is getting her to lower her head first. Yesterday she lowered her head before I even had the bit anywhere near her mouth and that was great! She didnt pull back at all or fuss. I would love for her to do this every single time I bridle her. Obviously, it carried over from me having her lower her head each time I halter and unhalter her in the field. PS - thank you to the outside trainer for teaching me this. Its obviously paid off.

I know some people may think its a bit overboard by asking my mare to lower her head each time i halter and unhalter her, but the BO thinks its a great thing to do.

I would love to take a video for you guys because bridling to me is still very raw and new to me. Its obviously something that I havent done a whole lot of.


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## Dehda01

I teach the "lower your head" touch and vocal cue first off with a new horse. I expect my horses to drop their heads to the ground and keep it there until I say so. Grooming and tacking up is so much easier once that is established. But a big part of that is respect on the horse's part. 

Is your mare cooperative to bridle? If not, you may want to practice bridling on a horse who thinks it is "old hat" and doesn't mind if you make a mistake. 

Always be polite with their front teeth and don't hit them with the bit when bridling and unbridling. 

Be gentle around their ears.

Always make sure that you have the reins around their neck to catch them if the get away from you... And perhaps the halter around their neck as well as backup... Depending on the horse. You never want them to escape.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I teach the "lower your head" touch and vocal cue first off with a new horse. I expect my horses to drop their heads to the ground and keep it there until I say so. Grooming and tacking up is so much easier once that is established. But a big part of that is respect on the horse's part.
> 
> Is your mare cooperative to bridle? If not, you may want to practice bridling on a horse who thinks it is "old hat" and doesn't mind if you make a mistake.
> 
> Always be polite with their front teeth and don't hit them with the bit when bridling and unbridling.
> 
> Be gentle around their ears.
> 
> Always make sure that you have the reins around their neck to catch them if the get away from you... And perhaps the halter around their neck as well as backup... Depending on the horse. You never want them to escape.


Well she sure was very cooperative yesterday when I bridled her twice in a row! She lowered her head as soon as I brought up the bridle.

My biggest challenge is lining up the bit to the mouth and waiting for them to open up then sliding it in, without worrying about getting bit.

As soon as I get the bit in, Im fine getting the bridle on. Im going to try this tonight and record and post a video for you guys. Wish me luck 

And yes I always put the reigns around her neck first. And last Fall I did some bridling on one of the lesson horses.


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## greentree

How do you think she can bite you?


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Well she sure was very cooperative yesterday when I bridled her twice in a row! She lowered her head as soon as I brought up the bridle.
> 
> My biggest challenge is lining up the bit to the mouth and waiting for them to open up then sliding it in, without worrying about getting bit.
> 
> As soon as I get the bit in, Im fine getting the bridle on. Im going to try this tonight and record and post a video for you guys. Wish me luck
> 
> And yes I always put the reigns around her neck first. And last Fall I did some bridling on one of the lesson horses.


You wait for her to open her mouth?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> How do you think she can bite you?


Accidentally of course by me having my fingers in the wrong spot. I have trouble at times looking for that soft spot along the back of their mouths where there is just softy pillownes


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> You wait for her to open her mouth?


I Do. I hold it up to her mouth and when she opens i slide it in slow.


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## Dehda01

You need to be in control of bridling, not letting her choose when to open her mouth. 

You need to tell her to open her mouth by gently putting your finger on the bar of her mouth just behind the incisors. There is a large gap where are no teeth and that is where the bit sits. Keep your fingers away from the front incisors and you will be fine. 

For most trained horses this is a cue, for green horses it is a irritant- either way they open their mouth. And you gently put the bit in being careful not to hit their front teeth.


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## greentree

That spot is right where the bit goes....just stick your thumb on your left hand right in and press, while pushing the bit in with your fingers when she opens her mouth.


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## Hoofpic

Success! Got the bridle on twice. I didnt do it right after the other but i tried twice and got it both times. Will show the video.

It wasnt perfect and definitely room for improvement but she didnt fuss.

I think the worst thing is, i put the bit by her mouth and she wont open up until after awhile. Youll see what i mean.

Im very pleased how tonight went


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## Rainaisabelle

Honestly, get the bit near her mouth and put your thumb near the corner of her mouth and put it in get her to open and put the bit in? Don't let her 'wait awhile' just get her to do it. She can't bite you if you do it like that.


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## Skyseternalangel

I think you are struggling between the purpose of liberty and the purpose of traditional training. Both have the end result of the horse wanting to be with you and listen to cues... but there is a time and place for them. Bridling is not the time and place for liberty mindset. 

Imagine if by sliding the bit slowly into her open mouth, you startle her and bang the bit on her teeth. Now she's not keen on opening her mouth. Then it becomes harder next time to bridle, and confusing. You continue waiting for her to open her mouth, but now she's not relaxing but clamping her lips shut. Because horses can do that. Then what? 

Give her a clear cue, and get the dang horse bridled! In time it will turn into the horse's choice of anticipating the bit and opening their mouth voluntarily. But it does NOT begin that way. Horses do not understand our way of thinking without consistent reminding known as training. Consistent. Not randomly waiting on HER to open her mouth (does a yawn count?) to put the bit in. That's one way to surprise a horse and end up with either or both of you hurt.

That is not respectful, it is rude.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> You need to be in control of bridling, not letting her choose when to open her mouth.
> 
> You need to tell her to open her mouth by gently putting your finger on the bar of her mouth just behind the incisors. There is a large gap where are no teeth and that is where the bit sits. Keep your fingers away from the front incisors and you will be fine.
> 
> For most trained horses this is a cue, for green horses it is a irritant- either way they open their mouth. And you gently put the bit in being careful not to hit their front teeth.


Just curious what happens when you hit their front teeth?

After you said that I need to control her and not let her choose when to open her mouth, that made me change my mind on showing the clips from tonight. 

It probably wouldnt be a bad idea for me to study a diagram of a horses mouth so i know exactly where this spot is. I know, but i dont know enough if you know what y ou mean.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> That spot is right where the bit goes....just stick your thumb on your left hand right in and press, while pushing the bit in with your fingers when she opens her mouth.


Sounds simply and easy enough.


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## Rainaisabelle

Well how would you like to be hit in the teeth with a steel bit ?


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Don't let her 'wait awhile' just get her to do it.


Thats what i unfortunately did tonight :sad: Lesson learned.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Well how would you like to be hit in the teeth with a steel bit ?


I know but what if the bit touches their front teeth but doesnt bang it.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well how would you like to be hit in the teeth with a steel bit ?
> 
> 
> 
> I know but what if the bit touches their front teeth but doesnt bang it.
Click to expand...

Nothing? It's just uncomfortable I mean you can't prevent the bit from completely not touching them but you can be gentle and not make it completely bang against them


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## Rainaisabelle

Rainaisabelle said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well how would you like to be hit in the teeth with a steel bit ?
> 
> 
> 
> I know but what if the bit touches their front teeth but doesnt bang it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nothing? It's just uncomfortable I mean you can't prevent the bit from completely not touching them but you can be gentle and not make it completely bang against them
Click to expand...

https://youtu.be/piuo23-XmuI


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## Dehda01

If you hit their teeth enough times with the bit, or pull an ear/tangle an ear with the mane enough timesrudely, they stop wanting to play with you. Depending on the horse they will start to protect themselves and get very bridle-shy. 

Be respectful and polite of their teeth and ears. 

You are in a prone position bridling a horse, because they are naked and aren't under quite as much control so you need to learn how to do it efficiently and politely. It sounds like you need to be taught mouth anatomy and how to properly ask. Have you read any of the pony-club manuals? Even though you are a western rider, there is a lot of good horsemanship to be learnt. Any other riding manuals?


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## Hoofpic

I will reply to the posts in a bit here but I have a bit of an OT question.

Does anyone here have health insurance for their horse(s)? Ive had mine since day one on Fly. I dont quite remember the exact details off by heart but I know its full coverage with what I believe up to $10,000 in any type of surgery with a $250 deductible (so I pay the $250 or $500) and the rest is covered under insurance.
Im going to get details in a bit here.

I pay $25 a month for this.

The reason I ask is because everyone Ive met and known so far, not one has insurance for their horse(s). So im wondering if its just because most dont feel its generally worth it?


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## Dehda01

This is the gap just behind their incisors.









Place the thumb of your left hand right here to ask them to ask them to open their mouth and then gently maneuver the bit into their mouth. I like to have my right hand on the bridge of their nose holding the rest of the bridle to support the head and control the bridle.









Yes, one of my other horses wanted to photobomb. I am lucky we didn't have everyone vying for a spot in the photo.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Nothing? It's just uncomfortable I mean you can't prevent the bit from completely not touching them but you can be gentle and not make it completely bang against them


Ok thanks.

The good news is that I have NOT banged the bit against my mares front teeth when putting in. Ive always been very careful of this not to happen. The same thing for when I take the bit out. I let the bridle hang so my mare lets go of the bit on her own. I dont drop it down myself.

The reason why I ask though is because last night when I put it in, the bit did touch, make contact against her front teeth but very light and definitely didnt bang against them. It was more of a light rub against the front teeth since I was holding it up there.

But now that I know that I should NOT wait for my mare to open her mouth for me to put the bit in, but right away put my thumb on the soft spot at the back of her mouth, then I obviously will not have this situation anymore of me holding the bit at her mouth waiting for her to open.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> If you hit their teeth enough times with the bit, or pull an ear/tangle an ear with the mane enough timesrudely, they stop wanting to play with you. Depending on the horse they will start to protect themselves and get very bridle-shy.
> 
> Be respectful and polite of their teeth and ears.
> 
> You are in a prone position bridling a horse, because they are naked and aren't under quite as much control so you need to learn how to do it efficiently and politely. It sounds like you need to be taught mouth anatomy and how to properly ask. Have you read any of the pony-club manuals? Even though you are a western rider, there is a lot of good horsemanship to be learnt. Any other riding manuals?


I havent read any other manuals but I do have a very good idea of how gentle you need to be when bridling and unbridling. I feel I am gentle but obviously practice makes perfect right? Bridling is something that Ive maybe done 8 times to date, so its still new to me. But i always make it a habit of being gentle on her ears, not pulling and not banging the teeth.


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## Skyseternalangel

Have you ever accidentally bit aluminum before or even touched it with your teeth? It hurts and though bits are made of steel imagine even touching your teeth it's going to hurt and with a horse are very sensitive


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> This is the gap just behind their incisors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Place the thumb of your left hand right here to ask them to ask them to open their mouth and then gently maneuver the bit into their mouth. I like to have my right hand on the bridge of their nose holding the rest of the bridle to support the head and control the bridle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, one of my other horses wanted to photobomb. I am lucky we didn't have everyone vying for a spot in the photo.


Did you just take those pics now? Thank you very much, much helpful. So the soft spot isnt right at the very back of the side of the mouth. About 2/3 back it looks like. Like I said, I know where the spot is in general, but if you were to get me to stand next to a horse and put my thumb right to the spot with their mouth closed and have my thumb land right on the spot, then i probably would be off.

I want to be able to just put my thumb right on the spot without having to run it along other teeth.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Have you ever accidentally bit aluminum before or even touched it with your teeth? It hurts and though bits are made of steel imagine even touching your teeth it's going to hurt and with a horse are very sensitive


I would imagine so. When I bridle my mare, I Dont think she is biting down on the bit as the bit is going into her mouth and i dont think she is either when im taking the bit out. I will show a clip.


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## Dehda01

Yea, I am on colic watch with my donkey and my other horses are harassing me. So easy targets. It is a bit difficult taking pictures one handed and trying to get the right shot when you are being mugged in the field though.


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## egrogan

Articles on equine mouth anatomy: http://www.thehorse.com/articles/18089/oral-examination-of-the-horse and Back to Basics: Equine Dental Terminology and Anatomy | TheHorse.com

Very simplistic diagram of where bit sits:


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Yea, I am on colic watch with my donkey and my other horses are harassing me. So easy targets. It is a bit difficult taking pictures one handed and trying to get the right shot when you are being mugged in the field though.


Ok okay, your pics help our so much  Thanks.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Articles on equine mouth anatomy:Oral Examination of the Horse | TheHorse.com and Back to Basics: Equine Dental Terminology and Anatomy | TheHorse.com
> 
> Very simplistic diagram of where bit sits:


Thanks for the diagram. I didnt realize their molars sit that far back.


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## Dehda01

Hoofpic said:


> Ok okay, your pics help our so much  Thanks.


I figured they would help.


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## Hoofpic

Sorry about the camera angles, I was trying to find the best spot to put the camera. IMO for something like this, my other camera would give a MUCH better view as I can zoom in. I was a bit lazy to set my other camera up last night, so come Friday I will use that camera. But at least right now you can get a general idea of how I bridle her and unbridle her.

First part I bridle her. 2nd I unbridle.


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## greentree

Next time you are grooming, open Fly's mouth and look at her teeth. 

There have been times when I have had life insurance on valuable horses, but never medical. Multiply that by 13. Certainly not worth it, IMO.

Just watched our video, and have a suggestion. Just hold the crown of the bridle in your right hand, and put it right over her ears in one motion, instead of holding the middle and switching hands. 

Do not let her swing her head away. Pull it back over with a correction noise.


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## egrogan

You have such an advantage because you're so tall! My horse is about Fly's size, but I'm really short so I'm still looking up and have to stretch to handle the bridle over her poll.

From what I could see, you were very gentle with her. You'll get smoother with the process with more practice, and do take greentree's suggestion of just opening up her mouth and taking a look at what's in there and where.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Next time you are grooming, open Fly's mouth and look at her teeth.


Her teeth are fine, she had really sharp teeth at the back last fall but I had her teeth floated in October of last year. Will do another float this fall again. Teeth getting floated is an annual thing right?



> There have been times when I have had life insurance on valuable horses, but never medical. Multiply that by 13. Certainly not worth it, IMO.


My biggest concern is say, Fly was to ever get surgery (praying this will never happen), surgery is pricey and if Im stuck with a 5k or 10k surgery, Id rather have insurance cover the cost outside of my deductible. But I do see what you are saying, even with me paying $25/month, that is still $300 a year out of my pocket that Im spending on health insurance for Fly. That's almost a full months board for me.

Its definitely not cheap, but on the other side of things, if I ever even have a vet bill thats more than my deductible, than I just pay my deductible and the rest is covered. 

Actually just found out my deductible is $500, not $250. Cause last August I had a $575 vet bill when she got injured and I didnt bother filing to get $75 back for insurance because the vet would charge $75 just to write up a report anyways (forgot what theyre called exactly but insurance brokers require it)



> Just watched our video, and have a suggestion. Just hold the crown of the bridle in your right hand, and put it right over her ears in one motion, instead of holding the middle and switching hands.


Oh the reason why I switch hands is because my coach wants me to, as soon as I get the bit in her mouth, I switch hands so my left is now holding it up, while I use the right to fold her ears a bit and the left guides the bridle around her ears.

My biggest problem at first (not on Fly fortunately) was getting the straps and such around the horses eyes.



> Do not let her swing her head away. Pull it back over with a correction noise.


This is the first time she pulled her head away when unbridling, she usually stands. I pulled her back over, but it wasnt right away.

I could say "NO" like i do with other corrections, at the same time pulling her head back over to me.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> You have such an advantage because you're so tall! My horse is about Fly's size, but I'm really short so I'm still looking up and have to stretch to handle the bridle over her poll.
> 
> From what I could see, you were very gentle with her. You'll get smoother with the process with more practice, and do take greentree's suggestion of just opening up her mouth and taking a look at what's in there and where.


I do have an advantage forsure in being tall. I know that I find it easier to bridle Fly than a larger horse because I dont need to reach up. Same with haltering. Even with the lesson mare (she wont lower her head for you), I have to reach up to put the halter on and its not as easy as Fly.

I just need practice. Just like when I was learning to saddle. Im still learning to saddle perfectly because right now Im slow as I take my time (always want to make sure I have the saddle and pad sit perfectly on them and that its balanced, same with the cinch, want to make sure it isnt rubbing against the back of their front legs. And making sure the cinch is tight but not too tight. So im a bit OCD when it comes to tacking up.

I will bring in my mare 45-50mins prior to my lessons cause brushing, picking her feet and tacking up easily takes me 30mins if not a bit more. Cause I like to have her all tacked up and ready to go at least 10mins prior to my lesson. No different than with the farrier. I think my coach appreciates it as well having her ready to go each time. She just walks in and shes all ready.

I would love to be able to open Flys mouth on my own but I know she doesnt like it and dont want her to accidentally bit me.


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## karliejaye

Hoofpic said:


> Her teeth are fine, she had really sharp teeth at the back last fall but I had her teeth floated in October of last year. Will do another float this fall again. Teeth getting floated is an annual thing right?


I don't think she meant to check for hooks or points, but more for your own education and experience. Every horse's anatomy is slightly different, so it's good to get an idea of the "lay of the land" so to speak.


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## updownrider

Dehda01 said:


> You are in a prone position bridling a horse, because they are naked and aren't under quite as much control so you need to learn how to do it efficiently and politely.



I am confused. Did you mean to say a prone position? Typically one is lying flat with the chest down and back up when in a prone position.


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## Hoofpic

Oh and yes thats her new custom fit halter! Haha. I still get a good laugh out of it each time I put it on her. Everyone at the barn laughs at the "cheeky mare". My coach said it totally suits her because she knows that Fly can be blantantly rude at times, she just sometimes goes about it discreetly (shes a very smart mare).

I know the BO thinks its an interesting looking halter cause its so bright and made a joke about how Fly might not like the "cheeky mare" part when I first put it on her haha.

It is much easier to put this halter on her due to the extra size and I think it looks great on her as well! I will still get a really good pic of her in it this weekend.


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## greentree

karliejaye said:


> I don't think she meant to check for hooks or points, but more for your own education and experience. Every horse's anatomy is slightly different, so it's good to get an idea of the "lay of the land" so to speak.


Yes...I meant open it and look at her teeth so that you can see where they are and get more comfortable with handling her. It is a normal part of horse handling here at my place. You also never know when you may spot a cracked or broken tooth. 

$500 deductible policy would definitely not be worth it to me....


----------



## Hoofpic

Bit of an OT question.

I will put my mare in the roundpen every now and then (not often) and just leave her alone there for a bit to eat grass. Do you think this is a bad idea? BO and coach said you should never let your horse eat grass in the same area where you work them.

For instance the path that you take when leading a horse to and from the barn. Which I never let Fly eat grass on the path or along the way. If I hand graze her, i take her to certain areas well away from the barn.

Is this true?

Now, I should mention that there is only TWO people (myself and a friend boarder with the 2 year old colt) at the barn, who hand grazes their horses. I have really cut back on it over the months but I do like to treat my mare every now and then. Ive learned my valuable lesson, that hand grazing a horse too often will do you more harm than good (and Im not taking shots at my friend boarder, but Im also seeing her horse as a big reminder to keep my eyes open).Cause at the old barn I would hand graze her 4, 5, sometimes 6 days a week. Now? Once a week at most, sometimes once every 10 days. 

Everyone else (including the BO and coach) are firm believers that as long as a halter is on a horse, it means work time and theyre never allowed to eat grass when a halter is on. This trains them to NOT put their head down for grass when their halter is on.

Before I would work my mare in the roundpen, I would put her in early, let her eat while I do other things. Then I come back and work her and during that time she is not allowed to put her head down for grass. Am I sending mixed messages to Fly?

For instance, right now, even though I wont be using the roundpen for lunging her or anything anymore, I do see it being useful for other things. Like ground tying. Ive never ground tied her with grass on the floor and want to do it this weekend. But if I put her in early to let her eat grass, would that be bad?


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## Dehda01

updownrider said:


> I am confused. Did you mean to say a prone position? Typically one is lying flat with the chest down and back up when in a prone position.


While one meaning of prone is to lie face down... I meant the adjective as to suffer from the consequences from... Per the Oxford Dictionary.... and my famous relative Webster....  prone: definition of prone in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)

* adjective*

1_ [predicative]_ (*prone to/prone to do something*) Likely to or liable to suffer from, do, or experience something, typically something regrettable or unwelcome: _years of logging had left the mountains prone to mudslides_ _he is prone to jump to conclusions_ More example sentences Synonyms



2Lying flat, especially face downward: _I was lying prone on a foam mattress_ _a prone position_ More example sentences Synonyms


2.1_ technical_ Denoting the position of the forearm with the palm of the hand facing downward.


3_ archaic_ With a downward slope or direction.




*Origin*

Late Middle English: from Latin _pronus_ 'leaning forward', from _pro_ 'forward'.


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## greentree

Whether your horse eats in its arena makes no difference. Whether your horse eats on the trail , path, wherever, makes no difference .


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## jenkat86

greentree said:


> Whether your horse eats in its arena makes no difference. Whether your horse eats on the trail , path, wherever, makes no difference .


I agree. I think the only thing that matters is that your horse doesn't eat when you don't want it to.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Yes...I meant open it and look at her teeth so that you can see where they are and get more comfortable with handling her. It is a normal part of horse handling here at my place. You also never know when you may spot a cracked or broken tooth.
> 
> $500 deductible policy would definitely not be worth it to me....


I will say one thing, the broker that Im with (Henry Equestrian) doesnt have the greatest customer service from the times that Ive had to contact them. Theyre based out of Ontario in Canada.

I just found out my deductible is $300, not $500 and my vet bill from last Aug was $375, not $575. 

So with a $300 deductible, does it change your opinion at all on whether you feel insurance is worth it on a horse?

So I just lowered my plan to $20/month...its their lowest plan. So $240 a year, savings of $60 a year. 

Its the same $300 deductible, just my annual coverage drops from $5000 to $2500. Which IMO $2500 for a years of medical allowance is still plenty. Last year i used $0 because all times when I had the vet out, it was too low of a cost to claim anything.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Whether your horse eats in its arena makes no difference. Whether your horse eats on the trail , path, wherever, makes no difference .


Oh ok, didnt know this. Maybe the BO and coach are too strict on believing horses shouldnt be ever allowed to eat grass when they have a halter on?

I know he doesnt believe I (or the other boarder should be hand grazing our horses, especially since we both are the two most green boarders on the property but we have the two youngest horses) but he also realizes that my horse is my horse and its my decision. But ALSO that i dont hand graze her a lot anymore. So he has learned to accept it. Everyone at the barn are firm believers that a horse should never be allowed to graze when they have a halter on. But just because you will see Fly try to lower her head every now and then when she is with me, doesnt mean its a consequence from me hand grazing her.

I know that lesson I did a couple weeks back did not work. My ques given to her were not clear enough. Maybe I just need to repeat it more with Fly, but one lesson wasnt enough.

I do think that hand grazing your horse a lot is no different than giving them treats a lot. They very soon come to expect it each time. I learned the hard way and why I cut back my time hand grazing Fly by about 90%.


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## egrogan

I don't see the problem. I hand graze just about every time I ride (in nice weather anyway). I think it's a nice reward. Just like anything else, they have to have manners. But as long as they're polite about it and don't "dive" for grass (which is all about what I allow), why not?


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I don't see the problem. I hand graze just about every time I ride (in nice weather anyway). I think it's a nice reward. Just like anything else, they have to have manners. But as long as they're polite about it and don't "dive" for grass (which is all about what I allow), why not?


I would love to hand graze Fly more (I enjoy it, its nice time just you two hanging out), but I know I cant because it brings out bad habits in her.

All it takes is 3 good straight times of you catching her and grazing her and the next time you catch her, as soon as you walk out of the gate, she will look for the grass cause shes expecting it.

When she got injured last August and was unable to eat hay for a week (cause her leftside of the jaw was sore and she couldnt chew and swallow the hay), guess what I was doing? I had to hand graze her, 3 times a day for 2-3hours each time, every single day. It wasnt the 18-19 hours a day of grazing that the pasture horses there got, and she was still underfed during that week, but it was a helluva lot better than grazing her for only a few hours a day and have her go hungry.

It was exhausting. I had to bump up my vacation week and use up 4 of my sick days just to do this. Because she wasnt out in the field (she was still paddocked at this time) and I wasnt going to put out a horse who had cuts on her face into random fields with terrible fencing and out of control horses . BO at the old place kept telling me "why are you grazing her?...just put her out in the field"


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## Dehda01

I hand graze when I want to hand graze. I also allow my horses to eat grass when we are on long trail rides, I think that it can be a reward for working hard for me. But it is always on my terms and they can't be rude about it. I can end it at any time without argument. If I had a horse that was going to be pushy I would have a chain or rope halter on them so I had the upper hand and could end the naughty behavior. 

It is always about respect for me. I am willing to be a benevolent leader and give them nice things, but they don't get to take advantage of it.

But I also am a different level of horse person than you are. Sometimes it is easier telling beginners never than ... Sometimes.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I hand graze when I want to hand graze. I also allow my horses to eat grass when we are on long trail rides, I think that it can be a reward for working hard for me. But it is always on my terms and they can't be rude about it. I can end it at any time without argument. If I had a horse that was going to be pushy I would have a chain or rope halter on them so I had the upper hand and could end the naughty behavior.
> 
> It is always about respect for me. I am willing to be a benevolent leader and give them nice things, but they don't get to take advantage of it.
> 
> But I also am a different level of horse person than you are. Sometimes it is easier telling beginners never than ... Sometimes.


I agree, I think its a nice reward as well. I really enjoy hand grazing. But IMO, right now I view it as something that has to be earned. Cant be just given.

Lately Ive been working on keeping my mares focus on me so I havent had time really to work more on teaching her not to put her head down. I really took GunKids advice on just take her out and about and watching where her focus is, her ears etc. I did a couple lessons on Warwicks video that I posted awhile back and unfortunately it did not work! A real bummer, I was so looking forward to it. 

Basically if im standing on her left. She will look directly to her right. As soon as she does this, I make an active and strong walk to my left, walk about 10-15steps then woah. She hasnt caught on yet which Im very shocked about.

However, I did notice Fly's attention more on me and less on her surroundings after each time I did this lesson with her. But she still has a tendency to look away when standing next to me. 

Last night I had us stand just outside a bunch of bushes and trees. I chose here because I know shes not 100% comfortable around trees and bushes, worried about something going to jump out from the bushes. So this was a great test. Even though she did focus a lot on the trees at first, after awhile her head wasnt so convincingly looking away and was more right next to me so this was good to see. Maybe I just need to repeat this lesson more for her to sink into her head? I also didnt wait for a lick n chew each time.


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## greentree

Dehda01 said:


> I hand graze when I want to hand graze. I also allow my horses to eat grass when we are on long trail rides, I think that it can be a reward for working hard for me. But it is always on my terms and they can't be rude about it. I can end it at any time without argument. If I had a horse that was going to be pushy I would have a chain or rope halter on them so I had the upper hand and could end the naughty behavior.
> 
> It is always about respect for me. I am willing to be a benevolent leader and give them nice things, but they don't get to take advantage of it.
> 
> But I also am a different level of horse person than you are. Sometimes it is easier telling beginners never than ... Sometimes.


This must be it....just say no, rather than try to explain the whys.

$2500 on an insurance policy would not be worth me paying into, no.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> This must be it....just say no, rather than try to explain the whys.


Ok



> $2500 on an insurance policy would not be worth me paying into, no.


Just curious why you think so? Because the chances of a horse needing an expensive surgery or a $500+ vet bill is rare and not that common?


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## Hoofpic

I wont go too much in detail but I used to know someone that showed me this pic saying how everyone was saying this was so cute. A horse kissing and giving her some loving just like a dog. Just how many things can you pick out from it thats just wrong? Isnt this more dangerous than cute? Nothing cute about it, especially from a horse that she doesnt know.


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## Skyseternalangel

^ How is that relevant to your journal. It sounds kind of petty to be honest.


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## EliRose

Agreed, super petty. That _is_ a really cute picture - and how do YOU know that's not her pony? Looks like a prom or wedding photo. And it sure isn't your business, or ours.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Oh ok, didnt know this. Maybe the BO and coach are too strict on believing horses shouldnt be ever allowed to eat grass when they have a halter on?
> 
> I know he doesnt believe I (or the other boarder should be hand grazing our horses, especially since we both are the two most green boarders on the property but we have the two youngest horses) but he also realizes that my horse is my horse and its my decision. But ALSO that i dont hand graze her a lot anymore. So he has learned to accept it. Everyone at the barn are firm believers that a horse should never be allowed to graze when they have a halter on. But just because you will see Fly try to lower her head every now and then when she is with me, doesnt mean its a consequence from me hand grazing her.
> 
> I know that lesson I did a couple weeks back did not work. My ques given to her were not clear enough. Maybe I just need to repeat it more with Fly, but one lesson wasnt enough.
> 
> I do think that hand grazing your horse a lot is no different than giving them treats a lot. They very soon come to expect it each time. I learned the hard way and why I cut back my time hand grazing Fly by about 90%.


What's your consequence? I somehow think that's your problem, not hand grazing in general . . . I work with racehorses and the ONLY time many of them get to graze is in hand. A poke on the shoulder gets most of them back to paying attention and away from the grass. A little boot to the muzzle if necessary.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I wont go too much in detail but I used to know someone that showed me this pic saying how everyone was saying this was so cute. A horse kissing and giving her some loving just like a dog. Just how many things can you pick out from it thats just wrong? Isnt this more dangerous than cute? Nothing cute about it, especially from a horse that she doesnt know.


I see danger in that picture. Not safe to wear probable heels, on grass & holding a pony while wearing a long strapless gown with a camera pointed at you.


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## greentree

My friend carries THREE mini's around in the back of her minivan....they probably do that to her while she DRIVES!! I don't see the problem.


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## SEAmom

Interesting that not so long ago you thought it was perfectly fine to have your horse "kissing" all over your face and now you cast all this judgment upon someone you don't know about a situation you have absolutely no knowledge of. Not to mention it isn't relevant to the topic of you and your horse. You're the last person who should be making those comments about this picture.

Personally, I find petty and hypocritical of you to make any kind of post about the girl in the picture. You have enough issues of your own to deal with, don't worry about strangers you don't know and pictures you happen to find on the internet.


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## Dehda01

I had a similar prom picture taken with my big, terrifying, "aggressive" regional winning stallion.  who would mug you for peppermints... And fall asleep during halter classes. I love it and it is framed at the top of my stairs. He always knew that teeth were unacceptable, but his lips were always going a mile a minute. 

My horses in the pasture now are the same way. A few of them are his babies. They want to mutual groom and stand with a lip extended asking for permission. No teeth allowed, sometimes I slow down and rub a wither or chest and they groom the air. 

It is a cute picture of a pretty lady and a adorable pony. Let it be. I think you are picking on her and her boobs a bit too much.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Ok
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious why you think so? Because the chances of a horse needing an expensive surgery or a $500+ vet bill is rare and not that common?


I have had horses for 50 years, and only once could have used that policy.knock on wood. (50x300)X (as many as 21 horses at one time) just does not add up.


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## Dehda01

Insurance is all a game of chance. Horses are put on earth to try to commit suicide. You do what you can to prevent them from succeeding 

I have put horses through colic surgery and unfortunately still not had them survive. I am not sure I will do it again. In my personal experience, it is better for me to pocket the money I would have put towards insurance and put it into a animal savings emergency account. Horses can be heartbreak on hooves. But you never quite know how and when. They are notorious for having expensive injuries and accidents. If insurance makes you feel better, then do it. Most of the time, you will come out poorer for it. But if you have an accident prone horse it more than pays for itself... But you never know until it is too late. Because that is the nature of insurance. I do personally believe in having a good liability/umbrella policy/medical policy for myself though.


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## karliejaye

Insurance is a very personal and individual decision. I do not have insurance on my horses because I don't have the extra income and have made up my mind for personal reasons that should a horse need surgery, I will opt to euthanize. Different strokes for different folks. When I was competing heavily years ago I did insure my horse.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> What's your consequence? I somehow think that's your problem, not hand grazing in general . . . I work with racehorses and the ONLY time many of them get to graze is in hand. A poke on the shoulder gets most of them back to paying attention and away from the grass. A little boot to the muzzle if necessary.


Not sure what my consequence is. I dont hand graze Fly very much, maybe once every 1-2 weeks now. I would love to hand graze her at least once a week.

If she puts her head down when next to me standing somewhere, I stomp my foot and say no. Obviously, I need to work on this more with her. I really dont feel proud of myself when I give her a light tug on the lead to get her head back up each time. Cause we all know it does not work.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Agreed, super petty. That _is_ a really cute picture - and how do YOU know that's not her pony? Looks like a prom or wedding photo. And it sure isn't your business, or ours.


i dont see anything wrong posting the picture and I do know the girl. We dont talk anymore but we did. ANd no thats not her pony, it was a rented one for that occasion.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I have had horses for 50 years, and only once could have used that policy.knock on wood. (50x300)X (as many as 21 horses at one time) just does not add up.


Ok thanks. Im really considering cancelling my insurance right now for Fly. $240 savings over a year is still $240 savings right?

Though I would hate for something to happen and have an expensive vet bill and not be able to claim any of it back. But like you said, the chances of it happening are very small.



Dehda01 said:


> Insurance is all a game of chance. Horses are put on earth to try to commit suicide. You do what you can to prevent them from succeeding
> 
> I have put horses through colic surgery and unfortunately still not had them survive. I am not sure I will do it again. In my personal experience, it is better for me to pocket the money I would have put towards insurance and put it into a animal savings emergency account. Horses can be heartbreak on hooves. But you never quite know how and when. They are notorious for having expensive injuries and accidents. If insurance makes you feel better, then do it. Most of the time, you will come out poorer for it. But if you have an accident prone horse it more than pays for itself... But you never know until it is too late. Because that is the nature of insurance. I do personally believe in having a good liability/umbrella policy/medical policy for myself though.


Good point. I think im going to cancel the insurance. Like I said, over the past year, I didnt used up any of my claim coverage because both times when I had the vet out, I paid for everything out of my own pocket.



karliejaye said:


> Insurance is a very personal and individual decision. I do not have insurance on my horses because I don't have the extra income and have made up my mind for personal reasons that should a horse need surgery, I will opt to euthanize. Different strokes for different folks. When I was competing heavily years ago I did insure my horse.


That makes sense. For a competition horse it would make sense, but not a pleasure horse.


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## Dehda01

What does stomping your foot or giving a light tug accomplish? You need to be a severe as a horse requires you to be but strive for the light touches. 

But if your horse goes right back to being rude (because you know that doesn't work) and the light tugs aren't enough, then you need more than light tugs. 

My horses aren't going to rush past me... Except my 2yr old. She is still learning and sometimes she forgets the consequences. She gets as big a response as is required. But my goal is as small a response as needed. I want to be soft and quiet, but sometimes, in the beginning you really don't start off that way.

But beginners shouldn't be learning on horses that need big responses. But if she is bullying you, you can bully back a bit. Not ABUSE mind you.


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## SEAmom

Not proud of a light tug? Really? Why? Are you afraid to hurt her feelings or something? What does stomping your foot accomplish any better than tugging on the lead rope? Well, other than looking like you have a fly on your leg or that you're throwing a tantrum - neither of which horses particularly care about. This makes no sense to me.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Not sure if I heard this somewhere or if I just made it up ( :lol: ), but...

"You have to start out loud/large so you can end up small/light/quiet." 

In other words, your horse won't understand the light/quiet cues if it doesn't first understand the bigger/louder consequences of not obeying those cues.

_Disclaimer: Hope that makes sense...it did in my head._


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## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> If she puts her head down when next to me standing somewhere, I stomp my foot and say no. Obviously, I need to work on this more with her. I really dont feel proud of myself when I give her a light tug on the lead to get her head back up each time. Cause we all know it does not work.


Right, tug of war doesn't work. But she knows how to disengage her hind end, right? So if she isn't responsive, either a. really get after her by backing her up or b. ask her to move that hind end over and as she lifts her head to do that, walk off where you want her to go.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> What does stomping your foot or giving a light tug accomplish? You need to be a severe as a horse requires you to be but strive for the light touches.
> 
> But if your horse goes right back to being rude (because you know that doesn't work) and the light tugs aren't enough, then you need more than light tugs.
> 
> My horses aren't going to rush past me... Except my 2yr old. She is still learning and sometimes she forgets the consequences. She gets as big a response as is required. But my goal is as small a response as needed. I want to be soft and quiet, but sometimes, in the beginning you really don't start off that way.
> 
> But beginners shouldn't be learning on horses that need big responses. But if she is bullying you, you can bully back a bit. Not ABUSE mind you.


The good thing is that she doesnt put her head down trying to get grass a lot, not often. Some days she will do it once, some days twice, a lot of days none. I just would like to be able to have her stand near me, and have lots of slack in the lead with her not trying to put her head down for grass. 

Usually if I correct her once and say NO, she quits it then. 

Stomping my feet I find is very effective on my mare in terms of getting her attention back on me. It works everytime. This was my go to method for when she used to paw when tied. She doesnt paw anymore.


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## Skyseternalangel

Honestly I read nothing except saw the words "stomp" and "no" in succession.

How is that communicating that behavior isn't acceptable to the horse? Stomping is to grab attention. No is but a word. There needs to be sensible actions behind words so the horse will learn what you mean.

Please think things through.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Right, tug of war doesn't work. But she knows how to disengage her hind end, right? So if she isn't responsive, either a. really get after her by backing her up or b. ask her to move that hind end over and as she lifts her head to do that, walk off where you want her to go.


Yes she knows how to disengage her HQ. You are right I could back her up hard if I have to correct her for the 2nd time in a row.

I did find though, in the past, the 2nd time by me giving a firmer and harder tug on the lead and telling her NO while looking right in her eyes did work! She didnt try it again after that.


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## Rainaisabelle

When I first got Roy I met this trainer at my current Agistment he's quite on in years probably 60-70 and he's worked all his life with horses he's a pretty cool guy albeit confusing and you can never get a simple answer. 

Anyway my point, when I took Roy up to hand graze him by the arena sometimes it was hard to get him to stop.. Roy easily outmatches me 600kg to 82kg anyway so this guy comes up grabs the lead rope and well taps? His jaw bone it wasn't a kick but it was more then a tap. Of course Roy was like holy hell what is happening, he tried again to graze so all this guy did was lift his foot and Roy stopped and stood patiently. 

I know some people won't agree and it's probably not correct but I've never had an issue hand grazing since..


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Honestly I read nothing except saw the words "stomp" and "no" in succession.
> 
> How is that communicating that behavior isn't acceptable to the horse? Stomping is to grab attention. No is but a word. There needs to be sensible actions behind words so the horse will learn what you mean.
> 
> Please think things through.


I dont get it, what do you mean?

Not to get OT, but the day has finally come! Im very excited, auditing a Peter Campbell clinic all day tomorrow. I will still be able to go to the barn at night, it will be a long day. Has anyone here met him or watched any of his clinics? Ive been following his recent clinics on Facebook over the past few weeks and its gotten me really excited to see him live.


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## DraftyAiresMum

@Hoofpic , what Sky means is that Fly doesn't understand the word "no." It's just a word to her. Stomping gets her attention, but it doesn't have a negative association for her.

Obviously, if you're still having to use the correction on a regular basis, the correction isn't working, so you need to find something else.

A prime example of a correction carrying a negative association that translates into a softer cue is my best friend's mare that bit me. I chased her backward for a good 50 feet. You read that right. I didn't "back her aggressively" or "make her back up." I literally CHASED her *** backward as fast as she could go for 50 feet. I made myself big, I made myself scary, and I made her think her world was coming to an abrupt and immediate end. Now, all I have to do if she goes to bite me is lift a finger toward her and go "Ah!" She immediately flies backward a few steps with her head in the air. 

My gelding is a notorious head dropper when he wants to graze. A stomp and "NO!" wouldn't phase him in the slightest. He has, however, been flicked in the nose with the tip of a dressage whip. That brought his head up post-haste. Now, all I have to do is flick the end of the lead rope at his nose (there's a leather popper on the end of my 12ft yacht rope lead) and he'll bring his head up. No tug of war, no looking like a fool stomping my foot and telling him now. His head is bigger than your average horse's, too (draft size halter and bridle), so there's no way I'm winning that tug of war.


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## Skyseternalangel

My boy weighs almost 1300lbs and listens to me without ANY issues when it comes to walking near grass. No attempts to pull me to get any, no attempts to walk all over me, no rudeness of any kind. He waits for me to give him the ok and he's a very happy horse.

Because my corrections in the beginning made sense. I didn't stomp my foot and yell no at him to get my 1300lb beasty to listen. Are you kidding me? What if he were to spook and run me over? No... corrections must be sensible. If they are stuck with their face on the floor, drive them off. Make it unpleasant, make them yield their butt... anything but replicating a tantrum that literally teaches the horse nothing but possibly to be more spooky.


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## piglet

Hoofpic-

Many years ago, a trainer I knew summed up the difference between working with a "green" horse vs a trained horse.

For a trained horse, you use the lightest cue you possibly can, because they understand the cues, and are confident in their job. If they ignore you, the cues get as severe as necessary. (And you make darn sure you aren't giving imprecise directions. No fair asking them to go if you are also clutching onto the reins for balance!) Your cues go from soft to strong.

For a green horse, your cues need to be "louder" to start with, because they don't have a lot of practice paying attention, and they are not practiced at following your directions. You soften those cues as the horse shows understanding. Often, the second time you give a cue, you can be softer IF you were clear, and rewarded their try the first time. Your cues go from strong to soft.

My horse pays attention to a soft cue - "Ah!" - because I started with a strong cue (a strike with my whip a hard as I possibly could. He is NOT allowed to kick me to the ground so he can run off and eat spring grass. You are very lucky your mare is such a kind soul.)


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## Hoofpic

I will reply to posts later tonight but im allowed to bring my cam tomorrow and take pics at the clinic! Im excited.

I rode my mare this afternoon for the first time on my own. Not completely unsupervised as my trainer was there doing other stuff. 

I bridled my mare 4 times (2 before the ride and again two after) EXCEPT this time I out my thumb in the soft spot of her mouth and got her to open up much sooner. She didnt move her head away, she was good. Thank you guys for showing me where to place my thumb. I think the bridling is coming along nicely.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> @Hoofpic , what Sky means is that Fly doesn't understand the word "no." It's just a word to her. Stomping gets her attention, but it doesn't have a negative association for her.


Oh ok I get it now, thanks for clarifying.



> Obviously, if you're still having to use the correction on a regular basis, the correction isn't working, so you need to find something else.


Yes



> A prime example of a correction carrying a negative association that translates into a softer cue is my best friend's mare that bit me. I chased her backward for a good 50 feet. You read that right. I didn't "back her aggressively" or "make her back up." I literally CHASED her *** backward as fast as she could go for 50 feet. I made myself big, I made myself scary, and I made her think her world was coming to an abrupt and immediate end. Now, all I have to do if she goes to bite me is lift a finger toward her and go "Ah!" She immediately flies backward a few steps with her head in the air.


I get it now.



> My gelding is a notorious head dropper when he wants to graze. A stomp and "NO!" wouldn't phase him in the slightest. He has, however, been flicked in the nose with the tip of a dressage whip. That brought his head up post-haste. Now, all I have to do is flick the end of the lead rope at his nose (there's a leather popper on the end of my 12ft yacht rope lead) and he'll bring his head up. No tug of war, no looking like a fool stomping my foot and telling him now. His head is bigger than your average horse's, too (draft size halter and bridle), so there's no way I'm winning that tug of war.


True. I see where you're getting at.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> My boy weighs almost 1300lbs and listens to me without ANY issues when it comes to walking near grass. No attempts to pull me to get any, no attempts to walk all over me, no rudeness of any kind. He waits for me to give him the ok and he's a very happy horse.
> 
> Because my corrections in the beginning made sense. I didn't stomp my foot and yell no at him to get my 1300lb beasty to listen. Are you kidding me? What if he were to spook and run me over? No... corrections must be sensible. If they are stuck with their face on the floor, drive them off. Make it unpleasant, make them yield their butt... anything but replicating a tantrum that literally teaches the horse nothing but possibly to be more spooky.


I agree. Actions speak louder than words. Simple as that.


----------



## Hoofpic

piglet said:


> Hoofpic-
> 
> Many years ago, a trainer I knew summed up the difference between working with a "green" horse vs a trained horse.
> 
> For a trained horse, you use the lightest cue you possibly can, because they understand the cues, and are confident in their job. If they ignore you, the cues get as severe as necessary. (And you make darn sure you aren't giving imprecise directions. No fair asking them to go if you are also clutching onto the reins for balance!) Your cues go from soft to strong.
> 
> *For a green horse, your cues need to be "louder" to start with, because they don't have a lot of practice paying attention, and they are not practiced at following your directions. You soften those cues as the horse shows understanding. *Often, the second time you give a cue, you can be softer IF you were clear, and rewarded their try the first time. Your cues go from strong to soft.
> 
> My horse pays attention to a soft cue - "Ah!" - because I started with a strong cue (a strike with my whip a hard as I possibly could. He is NOT allowed to kick me to the ground so he can run off and eat spring grass. You are very lucky your mare is such a kind soul.)


Thanks, I know what you mean now. Im surprised out of all these trainers that Ive been through, met and worked with, not a single one has mentioned that to me. They all wanted me to start light and work my way up.


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## Hoofpic

Just a heads up to the mods, I will be taking pics tomorrow at the clinic and I have permission sharing them on here.So please do not remove them. Thanks 

Hoping to get there early for a good seat.


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## Skyseternalangel

It's not that actions speak louder than words. It's that horses READ body language. You cannot converse with a blind person by signing (sign language) so why do you communicate with a horse using something they do not understand?


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## Dehda01

Ok... Imagine you are in a market in a foreign place. A person walks over to you and seems like he needs to tell you sometime really important. He pushes you slightly and yells "spaghetti". You stop- simply of shock.. He yells "spaghetti" again... You might be confused but might offer a new behavior... Like step sideways. He shakes his hands and gestures back. " SPAGETTI" he pleads with you. Oh... Maybe he needs you to backup. He nods frantically and says "spaghetti"again with a big smile. It worked for you the last time so you back up again. He looks so relieved. He gestures above your head to a piano that could have fallen on you....

You need to imagine working with any horse, but particularly green horses that words and gestures don't yet mean anything 100% of the time yet. She might know what "NO" mean... But it might mean " spaghetti" to her. So when she hears it she might keep Offering various behaviors until she gets a good response. 

This can be used to you advantage. Horses will desperately offer behaviors to get a release of pressure. I started teaching my 15 year old mare how to sidle up to a fence or mounting block as a nice trick, and as such she has to swing her hindquarters to me which is something I had never asked her to do while on the ground. So I grabbed a dressage whip, and choose a new word she had never heard before and added the cue. She went through maybe various options she could possible think that I could want before she took a single step towards me. That seemed like something I wouldn't want to her. But 10-15 minutes later I had the behavior fairly well down, and now she does it wonderfully. But she really thought bringing her body towards me was not ok and was going o get her in trouble. But when I taught her sons, who as much younger, with much less training, they pick it up in much less time... Perhaps because they weren't as worried about my personal safety....but most likely because they don't over think and had to go through everything they ever had to be taught in order to rule out what was being asked of them.... Or because I got better at training the movement...


----------



## Hoofpic

Thanks for the tips Angel and Dehda, you have made it very clear on what I need to change. Those are great example you've given me. Sure stomping my foot works great for getting my mares attention back on me, but if I need to correct, then do it through body language. I can still say NO but follow it at the same time with some sort of visible body language regardless of me coming across as a crazy man.


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## Hoofpic

Starting from the ground. Peter talking about respect from your horse.

Im taking lots of notes.

Lots of males attending.


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## Hoofpic

This clinic would have been very beneficial if Fly and I attended but at $600 a day I cant afford it.

I will post my notes later but I love how black and white Peter is. Hes a no BS, no grand stage entertainer that Parelli is, he doesnt crack jokes, he just tells you as it is. Very blunt horseman and I love it. The impression I get from him is that he is not there to impress anyone, just teach you what he knows.

I much prefer watching him live than Parelli.

Peter doesnt even use a carrot stick. And definitely doesnt roll a big ball in the arena.


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## Rainaisabelle

I'd like to point out that a month ago you were a Parelli fan with a Parelli trainer...I'm not sure why in your posts you keep comparing different people to Parelli. He is what he is but if they're a horseman working at a clinic or at a big show then they're an entertainer that's how they get there money.


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## Zexious

When I was riding, I really loved attending clinics. I think it's a great way to get a fresh perspective on you as a rider and your horses, and a fun way to learn something new. Plus, it's great exposure to BNTs. 
Maybe save and attend next year?


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## egrogan

Most people don't use a carrot stick or roll a big ball at their horse 

They just get on and ride! I think you're on a much better path now than you were a month ago!


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## Dehda01

A good horse training is not entertaining. If you set your horse up properly, it should be downright boring. My goal for my green horses are boring, mundane riding experiences. Not events. You shouldn't see me give big training signals, though I am much more obvious than with my very broke horses. 

Parelli is a salesman. And very good marketer. But has a very poor reputation with most horse people. He is the PT Barnum of the horseworld. He puts on a big show... But often leaves a lot to be desired.


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## Hoofpic




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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I'd like to point out that a month ago you were a Parelli fan with a Parelli trainer...I'm not sure why in your posts you keep comparing different people to Parelli. He is what he is but if they're a horseman working at a clinic or at a big show then they're an entertainer that's how they get there money.


I know he is still an entertainer, but hes just very different from Pat, which is a great thing really.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> When I was riding, I really loved attending clinics. I think it's a great way to get a fresh perspective on you as a rider and your horses, and a fun way to learn something new. Plus, it's great exposure to BNTs.
> Maybe save and attend next year?


I will never be able to afford it but eventually I do plan on hauling Fly for a day to do stuff together.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Most people don't use a carrot stick or roll a big ball at their horse
> 
> They just get on and ride! I think you're on a much better path now than you were a month ago!


I think im much better off today than i was a month ago. All thanks to you guys.


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## Hoofpic

Should clinics not be for the most part silent for auditors? This is the second one now where there is a parent with a loud kid that wont keep quiet. Its disrespectful that these parents continue to sit in the crowd and disrupt others and not excuse themselves. 

So today i had enough and went up to the mother and asked if she could step outside because she is making it difficult for me to hear. Especially seeing how Peters mic wasnt terrible loud either and there wasnt much seating for auditors to sit in, so even if moved it wouldnt do much.

So the mother apparently had her feeligs hurt and took it the wrong way. During lunch break, Her hubby came up to me and said theres not much they could have done and that they paid good money to be there and that I have to understand that they have a baby.

Which is fine, but so did I and others. Cause i know for a fact that others were annoyed as well by her baby making noise and i told them that

So what was I to say to the mother? I said i didnt mean to hurt her feelings and she was like whatever.

Lol whatever then. You know I dont even owe you any apology what so ever, so the fact i even said sorry says a lot on my part. And if you cant even accept it, then get lost...youre wasting my time.

Like what am I apologizing for? Cause i asked her to step outside (which was literally 5ft away)? Big deal.

Obviously the hubby was bothered as well, if he goes well out of his way to approach me about it.

Like really, its no different than a movie theatre or eating out at a restaurant. If someone is making excess noise to disrupt others i will confront them about it. Im paying money to be there and drove 40mins to be here. Im not going to have it ruined by others.

Its called being courteous and respectful of others. My sisters always would step out when their kids would make noise in punlic events.


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## Zexious

^If this is a clinic with any merit, you pay to audit it. 
They paid (or have someone exhibiting) and so did you. They have the right to enjoy the clinic, just as you do.
I have never attended a clinic as an auditor (granted, I have attended very few as an auditor) or an exhibitor where there was assigned seating... so move if someone is bothering you.

EDIT--Ok, so I reread the post and can see that you said it was too small and moving wouldn't do anything.
Regardless, I think you were out of line. It's not your place to ask someone to leave. If you're not enjoying yourself, it's on you to leave. If you really think she's disrupting others, then speak to someone in charge and have them speak to the woman. Calling a stranger out in public is, in my opinion, rude and unnecessary.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> ^If this is a clinic with any merit, you pay to audit it.
> They paid (or have someone exhibiting) and so did you. They have the right to enjoy the clinic, just as you do.
> I have never attended a clinic as an auditor (granted, I have attended very few as an auditor) or an exhibitor where there was assigned seating... so move if someone is bothering you.


I could have moved and it wouldnt have made any difference because the spectating seating was small. Whereas this mother with her baby and her stroller had an entire side of the arena to move to. A side that was 3 or 4 times the seating area. Not like she was sitting anyways. Heres what i dont get. These people can say all they want about they still get a lot from the clinic and are listening, i find that very hard to believe when you are working so hard trying to keep your baby or kid quiet.


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## Rainaisabelle

Oh dear lord...


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## Zexious

My post was edited before you responded, but addressed your last post OP.

And, unfortunately it's not really your prerogative or call to make whether or not someone is getting anything from the clinic..


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I could have moved and it wouldnt have made any difference because the spectating seating was small. Whereas this mother with her baby and her stroller had an entire side of the arena to move to. A side that was 3 or 4 times the seating area. Not like she was sitting anyways. Heres what i dont get. These people can say all they want about they still get a lot from the clinic and are listening, i find that very hard to believe when you are working so hard trying to keep your baby or kid quiet.


You obviously haven't been around kids very much.

When you have kids or are around them a lot, you learn to adapt and learn to listen "around" the interference of the crying or whatever. You can still learn by watching at a clinic, as well.

I agree that you were COMPLETELY out of line. If I had been that mother, I would have gone OFF on you the second you said something to me. My husband would only have gotten involved to protect _you_, not to stand up and defend me.

Here's one thing that I find about you...

You aren't adaptable. Not when dealing with other people and not when dealing with your horse. You seem to think that a prescribed action will work every single time and then get all frustrated and flustered when it doesn't. You're also pretty self-centered. I fear that until you learn to adapt and be fluid in your dealings with Fly and with people, you're just continuing to set yourself up for frustration and failure.

Sorry if that seems harsh. Peace, I'm out. :cowboy:


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## Hoofpic

Almost done but so far my notes.

1) You need response with respect.
2) You dont fix horses, you direct them.
3) it doesnt matter what you ask your horse to do, its how you ask.
4) the halter hooks to the feet, not the head.
5) Its not about putting more miles on a horse, but the right miles.
6) dont be afraid to make a mistake.
7) its your responsibility to have your horse respond with respect.
8) green = growing. Right thinking you know everything = rotten
9) A horse needs direction, not correction.
10) Backing up a rearing horse is the ultimate correction, because a horse cant rear if their weight is on their hind legs. If a horse rears, back them up as soon as they come back to earth.

In the saddle:
1) gotta see it, gotta do it, gotta feel it.
2) Feel, timing, balance
3) Never work on the timing, you work on the feel. Feel will bring you balance.
4) No such thing as a stubborn horse. It means they outsmarted you and they just dont understand.


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## greentree

Sorry, dude, that is THE definition of rearing. Look at a rearing horse picture.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You obviously haven't been around kids very much.
> 
> When you have kids or are around them a lot, you learn to adapt and learn to listen "around" the interference of the crying or whatever. You can still learn by watching at a clinic, as well.
> 
> I agree that you were COMPLETELY out of line. If I had been that mother, I would have gone OFF on you the second you said something to me. My husband would only have gotten involved to protect _you_, not to stand up and defend me.
> 
> Here's one thing that I find about you...
> 
> You aren't adaptable. Not when dealing with other people and not when dealing with your horse. You seem to think that a prescribed action will work every single time and then get all frustrated and flustered when it doesn't. You're also pretty self-centered. I fear that until you learn to adapt and be fluid in your dealings with Fly and with people, you're just continuing to set yourself up for frustration and failure.
> 
> Sorry if that seems harsh. Peace, I'm out. :cowboy:


Ive spend a lot of time with my niece and 3 nephews when they were younger and I didnt have Fly. 

Its just how my siblings and I were raised. We see it as being courteous and respectful of others. Its no different if this was to happen in a movie theatre or restaurant and i can gaurentee you that im not the only peron who would confront the person.

When my niece and nephews were babies and toddlers, i babysat them alot and hungnout with them in public places with my sisters. When they wouldnt keep quiet when asked, my sisters always excused herself from the situation simply cause she didnt want to disrupt others.

Shes confronted people before who had a loud baby and she was trying to listen in on something. It doesnt make her self centered.

Thats what it comes down to. Being respectful of others.


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## greentree

Yes, respectful, but still, IMO, you could have said excuse me, I am having trouble hearing over the baby.... Or gone up to the announcer, or whomever was doing the microphone, and asked them to turn it up.


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## Dehda01

Never back up a rear horse. You will be asking that horse to flip over on you. Spin them and get there back end moving over. My gelding offered to rear multiple times when I needed him to ride over a beaver dam tonight. He thought it was stupid. Backing him up would have made him even lighter on his front end- that was not what I needed. I needed to reinforce/reestablish forward again and take away his ability to rear. So he got folded in half until he was able to find his brain and then asked nicely to go forward in a place he could go forward. Once forward was reestablished we were able to go back to wading through belly deep water and walking over the beaver dam.

As to the crying baby- never judge other people at a horse event. They want to learn just as much as you do, paid the same few and someday it might be you who can't get a babysitter and need to bring a fussy baby to an event. You need to learn a bit of kindness and empathy. 

Clinics sound are never good. Get used to it.


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## Zexious

^This. This. This. This.
Where did you ever get the notion to back up a horse that's trying to rear?
Focus instead on engaging a horse that's trying to rear. Not mindlessly backing them up.

I'm wondering if maybe you're confusing the terminology? Maybe you mean buck? 

As far as the situation at the clinic, my opinion stands and others seem to agree with me.
They have every right to be there that you do.
Nobody likes a screaming baby. I get that. But polite society (something I happen to be quite the fan of) dictates you politely look the other way.
A little kindness and understanding for others and their situation can take you a long way.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Yes, respectful, but still, IMO, you could have said excuse me, I am having trouble hearing over the baby.... Or gone up to the announcer, or whomever was doing the microphone, and asked them to turn it up.


There was no announcer, Peter used his own mics.

Anyways, might as well move on...


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Never back up a rear horse. You will be asking that horse to flip over on you. Spin them and get there back end moving over. My gelding offered to rear multiple times when I needed him to ride over a beaver dam tonight. He thought it was stupid. Backing him up would have made him even lighter on his front end- that was not what I needed. I needed to reinforce/reestablish forward again and take away his ability to rear. So he got folded in half until he was able to find his brain and then asked nicely to go forward in a place he could go forward. Once forward was reestablished we were able to go back to wading through belly deep water and walking over the beaver dam.
> 
> As to the crying baby- never judge other people at a horse event. They want to learn just as much as you do, paid the same few and someday it might be you who can't get a babysitter and need to bring a fussy baby to an event. You need to learn a bit of kindness and empathy.
> 
> Clinics sound are never good. Get used to it.


Peter said it. One of the horses in the clinic was rearing on the ground and Peter said as soon as the horse comes back down, back them up. He made the owner do it a bunch of times and seem to have worked on that horse. He didnt back the horse up assertively, just lightly one step back.

Edit: now when i think of it, I dont think this was on the ground but in the saddle.


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## Dehda01

Hoofpic said:


> Peter said it. One of the horses in the clinic was rearing on the ground and Peter said as soon as the horse comes back down, back them up. He made the owner do it a bunch of times and seem to have worked on that horse. He didnt back the horse up assertively, just lightly one step back.
> 
> Edit: now when i think of it, I dont think this was on the ground but in the saddle.


And I am telling you, backing up a rearing horse while you are on their back is a dangerous and stupid thing. I will get after them on the ground and make them think they are dying for a few seconds, but undersaddle they are getting folded in half if it is safe for me to do so to get the behavior to stop and then they HAVE TO GO FORWARD.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> And I am telling you, backing up a rearing horse while you are on their back is a dangerous and stupid thing. I will get after them on the ground and make them think they are dying for a few seconds, but undersaddle they are getting folded in half if it is safe for me to do so to get the behavior to stop and then they HAVE TO GO FORWARD.


So is it safe to say that, thats the one piece of advice from today thay i shouldnt listen to?

I thought Drafty backs up horses too if they rear?

This is a 4 day clinic and today i got a free pass to audit one more day if i like. I might go tomorrow late afternoon depending what time i finish at the barn.

Mmonths ago, I was talking to Peters wife and asked her if all the content taught would be in continuation or just repeated from days 1-4 and she said repeated. So i immediately tought, great, I can learn it all in just one day.

Found out today once i got there that its continuation and thats why Peter highly recomended me to come all 4 days and stay from start to finish.


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## EliRose

I have to think you are completely misunderstanding what in the heck rearing even is. It's when the horse puts weight in their HIND end. Bucking is when they put weight on their FRONT end. If a horse is threatening to rear, you move them FORWARD and disengage. Often one of the early threats IS the horse backing. 

If they're threatening to buck, you take them back. Backing a rearing horse is one awful idea that could easily end up with a horse on top of you.

I'd have about ripped your head off if you came up to me about my (non-existent) baby. The parents have the same right to be there as you, and if it didn't upset the clinician - so keep your mouth shut.

Here's a video of Clinton Anderson doing a good job flipping a horse over by applying waaaay too much backwards pressure (when he was actually disengaging her HQs). I'm still somewhat surprised that they actually used this in the show, his timing here is horrendous and he 100% created that rear.


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## EliRose

IDK why that's not posting, but it's the "Star Treatment" episode. Watch it.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> IDK why that's not posting, but it's the "Star Treatment" episode. Watch it.


Ill watch it, thanks 

I know absolutely 100% Peter meant reari
ng, not bucking and rearing is when their front feet come off the ground. I used to get rearing and bucking mixed up but not anymore.
Too bad I couldnt get a video but i know forsure that this horse was rearing and as soon as those front feet came back down, the rider moved the horse back one step.

But you are right, moving them forward when they rear and as soon as those front feet come back down makes MUCH MORE SENSE.

Maybe Peter just made an honest mistake?


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## EliRose

That's a very dangerous mistake.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> That's a very dangerous mistake.


True and perhaps he was actually serious (my guess was he was), the guy has over 30yrs exp and has worked with thousands of horses, so dont think he would make a mistake on that.

I think his logic was that, because you cant correct a horse for rearing until their front feet come back down, it is safe to back them up right after.


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## greentree

And "right after" is too late. As was said before, rearing is a problem in the horses head with " going FORWARD" . A going forward horse CANNOTrear. That requires stopping combined with a backwards movement to balance on the hind legs. 

Just lumped that guy on with the rest of the morons.


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## Zexious

Hoofpic, can you tell us a little more about this trainer? His accolades, maybe? You may have posted his full name or accomplishments elsewhere in the thread, but 120 pages is a lot to look through xD
Exposure to horses for decades doesn't necessarily mean someone knows what they are doing. 

You said you're planning on attending one more day--maybe ask him what he meant?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> And "right after" is too late. As was said before, rearing is a problem in the horses head with " going FORWARD" . A going forward horse CANNOTrear. That requires stopping combined with a backwards movement to balance on the hind legs.


But you cant correct a rearing horse right as their front feet are off the ground can you?



> Just lumped that guy on with the rest of the morons.



What? Not a Peter Campbell fan? Are you familiar with him?

From what Ive been told by many people, he is highly regarded horseman. Ive heard nothing but very good things about him.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> Hoofpic, can you tell us a little more about this trainer? His accolades, maybe? You may have posted his full name or accomplishments elsewhere in the thread, but 120 pages is a lot to look through xD
> Exposure to horses for decades doesn't necessarily mean someone knows what they are doing.
> 
> You said you're planning on attending one more day--maybe ask him what he meant?


He doesnt consider himself a "trainer" but a "horseman". He said some really interesting things today that really caught my attention. He said that he wouldnt know how to train a young horse, but knows how to get one started. Now, this was when he was doing his "starting a colt" lesson in the late afternoon to early evening tonight. I thought maybe he was being sarcastic and perhaps he was.

He also said that if he knew early in his career that the horse world would be where it is today, he wouldnt have gotten into teaching horsemanship. But he does it because he wants to help others with any issues that they have and teach them how to communicate with their horse.

Here is his site. He is on a Canada tour right now. The man is always on the road, very busy horseman with his clinics. At $600/ day to be an active member in his clinics, I would think this guy is a well known horseman in the horse world.

Peter Campbell HorsemanshipPeter Campbell

Not gaurentee Im going tomorrow. I have a group riding lesson at noon and if I go to Peters day 2 after, it wont be until 4 or 5pm and it might be over by then. Just waiting to hear back on whether they will still be teaching at that time.


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## Zexious

You correct a rearing horse by encouraging forward movement.

So, based on his website he's just ridden a lot of horses..?

PS--Every "horseman" is a "trainer."
Every time you work with your horse you are training it, be it for better or worse.


----------



## Hoofpic

Some pics from today.










This is his 3 yr old gelded stud, only has 10 rides on him.










Though it was like 29C here today, I still went for a nice hike on the lunch hour. Gotta get those legs strong for riding. Such a beautiful view here with all the trails. 





























I want to be able to ride Fly out on a trail like this one day.


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## Zexious

Nice. Looks like a lovely day.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> You correct a rearing horse by encouraging forward movement.
> 
> So, based on his website he's just ridden a lot of horses..?
> 
> PS--Every "horseman" is a "trainer."
> Every time you work with your horse you are training it, be it for better or worse.


Well he learned from Tom Dorance when he was alive. 



> Peter Campbell is able to teach people the most effective ways to help your horse become a “Willing Partner” through simple, practical, and essential values that create respect and a strong bond between horse and rider.


I would say hes up there with Warwick Schiller, Clint Anderson, John Lyons etc.

Aside from the rearing correction, he gave a lot of very valuable advice and sayings today.


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## Hoofpic

I will admit, Im a little surprised none of you guys have heard of his name.


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## Zexious

^Based on what?

Warwick is a NRHA accolades, and has competed at WEG.
Anderson has similar accomplishments on the Australian circuit.
Lyons has received notoriety from Universities and Equitana...

EDIT--Why is that surprising?
I'm an "on hiatus" A circuit H/J rider... I have never once attended a western or "horsemanship" clinic in my life.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> ^Based on what?
> 
> Warwick is a NRHA accolades, and has competed at WEG.
> Anderson has similar accomplishments on the Australian circuit.
> Lyons has received notoriety from Universities and Equitana...
> 
> EDIT--Why is that surprising?
> I'm an "on hiatus" A circuit H/J rider... I have never once attended a western or "horsemanship" clinic in my life.


Sure Peter isnt as established but he seemed like a very good horseman today.

Here is an article I found and thought it was a good read because these same 10 points is what I made out from today as well.

10 Things I Learned at the Peter Campbell Clinic - LOPE

I do agree with this person that Peters clinic today was very inspirational. Though I will admit that he did go over some stuff today (riding) that was a bit too advanced for me, but still good to hear it regardless. As I continue to get my knowledge up, when I do hear it again, it will sink in better.

His clinics are horsemanship and riding together.


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## tinyliny

it will take you years, and many repeats of such things to understand what he's talking about , in many instances.

just so you don't get all worried if you don't get it all this time. or, even worse, assume that you DID get it all this first time.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> it will take you years, and many repeats of such things to understand what he's talking about , in many instances.
> 
> just so you don't get all worried if you don't get it all this time. or, even worse, assume that you DID get it all this first time.


I agree and Im not expecting for me to get some of the advanced stuff the next time I hear it. I think this would explain why his teaching style is so black and white and blunt as can be, because today he said something along the lines of how he can talk about this and that but it will do us no good because we wont know what he means by it. And that the best way to know what he means by it is by experience. Knowledge comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgement.

Now, on his Facebook page, he also has 1900 followers. Not sure if that would be considered a lot for a horseman.

I will admit, he actually reminded me a lot my BO. Both are very blunt, direct and black and white approach horseman who get right to the point. Im almost certain that my BO would know who Tom Dorrance or Ray Hunt is when they were around.


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## Rainaisabelle

If you back a horse while it rears you're going to end up with a horse either flipping backwards and hurting itself or if you're riding then it will end up on top of you. 


Take everything with a grain of salt not everything you hear is correct.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> If you back a horse while it rears you're going to end up with a horse either flipping backwards and hurting itself or if you're riding then it will end up on top of you.
> 
> 
> Take everything with a grain of salt not everything you hear is correct.


I agree


----------



## Skyseternalangel

A gelded stud? A stud is a stallion meant for breeding...... geldings cannot breed.


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## Skyseternalangel

I know this is your journal but sometimes you come across as a barn gossip, and are expecting to connect with us that way?

No thank you, no on here likes barn drama or adding to it. It's the one thing that takes away from a perfect day/experience at the barn. If you are like this in person, you will find yourself without friends I'm sorry to say. 

Gossip is toxic.


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## Dehda01

All geldings start off as stallions at some point. Then their testicles get cut off and they are stallions no more.  as soon as the testes are off... You can't call them a stud/stallion. Just a gelding. 

I am glad you felt you got something out of the clinic. I try to feel inspiration out if a clinician even if it is only one tiny training tip. But yes, some of his tips are junk, and some are very good. Nature of the beast. Humans are imperfect, and riding is an art. You just need to learn how to close your mouth, open your ears and eyes and sponge up the information. And then learn how to shift the good from the bad. And at clinics and even riding instructors, there will be. 

He sounds like a local/mid guy, not famous enough to be heard out of circles but starting to do tours. I have not ever heard of him and have an ear to the ground in many circles, but It is a big place we live in. 

Rearing truly is one of the most dangerous vices.


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## greentree

Never heard of him....

My DH has thousands of friends on fake book, too. 

A person's expertise is not measured by the amount charged in a clinic. " he must be good because he charges so much"???? NO. 

A "horseman" does not tell you how great he is... Watch some of those bad PP and CA videos to find out that the horse will put you in your place!

Learning to read between the lines will get you a lot more knowledge than quoting these yahoos. 

You correct a rearing horse BEFORE it rears.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> I know this is your journal but sometimes you come across as a barn gossip, and are expecting to connect with us that way?
> 
> No thank you, no on here likes barn drama or adding to it. It's the one thing that takes away from a perfect day/experience at the barn. If you are like this in person, you will find yourself without friends I'm sorry to say.
> 
> Gossip is toxic.


I'm not into barn drama at all, this is one reason why I moved away from my previous barn. It was toxic there.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> All geldings start off as stallions at some point. Then their testicles get cut off and they are stallions no more.  as soon as the testes are off... You can't call them a stud/stallion. Just a gelding.


I know some of you will laugh, but this I didnt know.



> I am glad you felt you got something out of the clinic. I try to feel inspiration out if a clinician even if it is only one tiny training tip. But yes, some of his tips are junk, and some are very good. Nature of the beast. Humans are imperfect, and riding is an art. You just need to learn how to close your mouth, open your ears and eyes and sponge up the information. And then learn how to shift the good from the bad. And at clinics and even riding instructors, there will be.


Yes, great learning experience for me. Even good reputable horseman can give bad advice. Its not something you would like to see (since when fans are buying into their teaching method and knowledge database, we are drinking their kool aid), but not much you can do.



> He sounds like a local/mid guy, not famous enough to be heard out of circles but starting to do tours. I have not ever heard of him and have an ear to the ground in many circles, but It is a big place we live in.


From what Ive found out, hes been doing tours for many years now and its not just the occasional one. He is always on the road. His schedule this year is nuts.










I will admit, after having watch yesterday, it wasnt long after it started that I knew if Fly and I attended it would have been very beneficial for the both of us. This would have been an amazing experience for Fly to go through. She's never been through any sort of clinic like this. But at $600 a day, it was just too much for me. I know its 8 hours long a day, so total 32 hours but still.



> Rearing truly is one of the most dangerous vices.


Do you mean, the advice that HE gave for rearing is one of the most dangerous pieces of advice?


----------



## EliRose

Reading is one of the most dangerous vices and his advice could get someone killed.


----------



## LoriF

Skyseternalangel said:


> A gelded stud? A stud is a stallion meant for breeding...... geldings cannot breed.


I kind of took what hoofpick said that he meant a horse that was used as a stud in the past and has been recently gelded. I don't know, maybe he meant something else


----------



## Hoofpic

LoriF said:


> I kind of took what hoofpick said that he meant a horse that was used as a stud in the past and has been recently gelded. I don't know, maybe he meant something else


Yes, this is what I meant. I was just telling what Peter told us in that his boy used to be a stud.


----------



## greentree

Hood pic, could you please get some basic horse books and study them like you studied in school? Write down the terms, then define them and check your answers? 

You seriously seem to be missing some MAJOR BASIC knowledge.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Reading is one of the most dangerous vices and his advice could get someone killed.


True. I just need to completely take out his advice on correcting rearing. Whether others in the clinic follow it is none of my business either.

But Im glad I mentioned it on here because had I not, I wouldnt have known that backing up a rearing horse is a huge safety risk.


----------



## Hoofpic

Its too bad that I cant make it to the clinic first thing this morning - theres a chance I might only be able to catch the last couple hours. There is one part that he will be eventually talking about that I really want to be there for. I would hate to miss it.



> 5) Horses aren’t people (or dogs, for that matter).
> Seems obvious, right? Of course, horses aren’t people. You really don’t need to attend a clinic to learn that. And yet, most of us are guilty of anthropomorphizing our horses (at least a little bit). Usually, it’s with the best intentions. We love them, and we want to make them happy. However, the nicest person with good intentions can turn the best horse into a dangerous and unhappy creature. As an example: a horse pins his ears and threatens to bite or kick when the owner attempts to mount. The owner might try to be respectful of the horse’s feelings (he must not feel like going for a ride today), by putting the horse away. Over time, a horse who is consistently spoiled and appeased will become more and more disrespectful. Horses naturally need (and want) a leader to give them direction. The spoiled horse has been thrust into a leadership role. As such, he becomes unhappy, dominant, and eventually unsafe. Peter spent some time at this clinic talking about the dangers of spoiling a horse. In particular, he brought up treat training and hand feeding treats. This is really treating horses as if they are dogs, and is equally detrimental. In their natural environment, the dominant horse asserts his status by moving another horse and taking his food. When a horse is hand-fed a treat, he is learning he can take the owner’s food; therefore, he is dominant over the owner. This can lead to aggressive behavior, which can ultimately put both horse and owner in danger. The best way to be a kind owner is to remember your horse is a horse.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hood pic, could you please get some basic horse books and study them like you studied in school? Write down the terms, then define them and check your answers?
> 
> You seriously seem to be missing some MAJOR BASIC knowledge.


I will try to find one on amazon. I have lots of books, still come to read and no teminology one yet.


----------



## greentree

Do you not have a library?


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## greentree

Go put that into practice with your own horse, instead of wasting your time watching him try to explain it!


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## Dehda01

Of all the vices that a horse can have, rearing is the most dangerous. Because it is so easy to get them off balance and have them flip over on you. Some horses will flip on purpose. 

I rode a horse that would flip because he had gotten show burnt. Owner "forgot" to mention it to me. Nearly got me killed. She finally told me once he flipped twice and I said I wasn't climbing back up until she got him fully vet checked out since it was so unlike him and he had warmed up so nicely outside of the ring. Would have been nice to know and I never would have climbed on him or maybe tried to set him up better. She thought since I had trail ridden him all summer long he would have forgotten his arena burnt behavior and because I didn't know his previous behavior maybe it wouldn't happen.... So irresponsible. She nearly got me killed. But I couldn't trust her and it wasn't worth my life. 

I have had good friends die or be permanently damaged from traumatic brain injuries. They are never to be played with.


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## Dehda01

You know what his schedule means to me... It looks doesn't have a set of training horses or lesson students sitting in a barn expecting to be worked by him. Looks like he is trying to tour on weekends. That is all. doesn't mean he is famous, but I rank horseman by how well they can handle a horse. I don't particularly care about your awards or fame. I don't see any reason why he deserves a $600 fee however. He isn't Buck Brannaman.


----------



## EliRose

Dehda01 said:


> You know what his schedule means to me... It looks doesn't have a set of training horses or lesson students sitting in a barn expecting to be worked by him. Looks like he is trying to tour on weekends. That is all. doesn't mean he is famous, but I rank horseman by how well they can handle a horse. I don't particularly care about your awards or fame. I don't see any reason why he deserves a $600 fee however. He isn't Buck Brannaman.


All I've heard about him is that he tries to be Buck, and ends up being kind of a jerk.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Do you not have a library?


No i dont.



greentree said:


> Go put that into practice with your own horse, instead of wasting your time watching him try to explain it!


What? Im not wasting my time listening to him. Okay, he is admittedly wrong on the rearing correcting but everything else i found was beneficial yesterday. Not trying to argue with you, but I wont know what hes trying to say unless I give him ears.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Of all the vices that a horse can have, rearing is the most dangerous. Because it is so easy to get them off balance and have them flip over on you. Some horses will flip on purpose.
> 
> I rode a horse that would flip because he had gotten show burnt. Owner "forgot" to mention it to me. Nearly got me killed. She finally told me once he flipped twice and I said I wasn't climbing back up until she got him fully vet checked out since it was so unlike him and he had warmed up so nicely outside of the ring. Would have been nice to know and I never would have climbed on him or maybe tried to set him up better. She thought since I had trail ridden him all summer long he would have forgotten his arena burnt behavior and because I didn't know his previous behavior maybe it wouldn't happen.... So irresponsible. She nearly got me killed. But I couldn't trust her and it wasn't worth my life.
> 
> I have had good friends die or be permanently damaged from traumatic brain injuries. They are never to be played with.


But they can still flip over you if theyre front feet are back on the ground?

If i go see him this afternoon, I will ask him about his reasoning behind backing a horse up when they rear. Not saying hes right, (i know hes wrong), but im just curious on his logic behind it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> You know what his schedule means to me... It looks doesn't have a set of training horses or lesson students sitting in a barn expecting to be worked by him. Looks like he is trying to tour on weekends. That is all. doesn't mean he is famous, but I rank horseman by how well they can handle a horse. I don't particularly care about your awards or fame. I don't see any reason why he deserves a $600 fee however. He isn't Buck Brannaman.


He definitely is no Buck, thats forsure.

From what he told us, he travels for a living and mosy of the year. He doesnt have horses to train because he doesnt want to be known as a trainer. He doesnt even call himself a trainer, but a horseman.

Aside from his own, he doesnt want to be working horses. But teach others how to work their horse.

He made that comment yesterday about how he wouldnt know how yo train a horse, but knows how to get one started. Now like I said, Im not sure if he was being serious or not when he said this but it definitely caught my attention.

He said one other thing as well that caught my attention. If he knew early in his career that the horse world would be where it is today, he wouldnt have gotten involved with anything. Take that for what its worth. He didnt go too much in detail. But hes still doing it today. Whether its the money that drives him who knows.


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## Rainaisabelle

Horses can flip over with all four feet on the ground but it is unlikely they would need some sort of impulsion to get off the ground. 

Rearing is a vice that is so dangerous it's not even funny. Not only can horses go up full vertical but one inch of pressure the wrong way they're flipping over on top of you probably crushing you and killing you.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> All I've heard about him is that he tries to be Buck, and ends up being kind of a jerk.


Where did you hear that he tries to be Buck?

I did find some past feedback on Peters clinic and it seems many have said the same that Peter came across as a jerk.

Now I will admit, hes a very rough looking guy and not the mosy personable (which is fine by me because im not the most personable either at times).

He brings intimidation as I could see it yesterday in some of the participants expressions. He is a very blunt person who is like me, what he says can sometimes be taken by the other person in the wrong context.

But my BO is the same. Hes a very blunt guy who at times, I find still intimidating. At first I thought he was a jerk. But hes not. Its just the way he explains things and communicates with you at times that some people may take it personally because of how he says it.


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## Skyseternalangel

It's fine that you want to expand your own knowledge but please don't practice this without your instructor or BO's supervision. You can get seriously hurt. You are trying to read the Illiad before you can read See Spot Run.


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## Dehda01

The horse that flipped on me did not offer any pre-rear, or head flip. But that is fairly unusual. But he was a horse that had practiced this maneuver to not go into the ring. Interestingly enough, I had been riding him for 6+ months at home and trucking to trail rides without any signs of problem. The warmup was in a grass cross country field and he was fine. We were about to go into the dressage part of our test and he trotted forward into the arena. Stepped into the arena. I felt him gather up but though he was just collecting into my half-halt and he threw himself backwards in one smooth movement. I was able to push myself it of the saddle and out of the way and truly though it was a fluke- maybe he had gotten stung by bees coming by the fence post. His eye looked a bit hard as I gather him as he stood up, but a checked him over. Everyone came flying over to us. The owner was silent the entire time. I asked if anyone has seen anything and no one had. Just that he suddenly got tense at the fence. 

The judge said I could have a few minutes to regroup and I took him back to the warm up. I climbed back up- he was tense but then worked out of it. But the once we walked back towards the arena again he jettisoned himself right over again- 10 feet away from the fence this time. This time I had him slightly bent but it threw off his perfectly laid plan and he landed on me. 

The owner then fessed up that this is what he had started the year before with the last trainer. 

So must of the time flipping horses are pulled over by the rider, or if they go too high because they aren't paying attention, but you can have a horse with a plan too. This horse had decided he was done being a show horse. He was a very good trail horse, but it is hard to safely sell a trail horse with dirty flipping habit.


----------



## greentree

If you search around on this very forum, several...ok many, times on YOUR own threads, you will see just how many times the SAME thing has been said. 

You live in a CITY, in a large country, without a LIBRARY???


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## Dehda01

Start with a cheap basic horse encyclopedia. Then get a learn how to ride book. eBay has them cheap if you really can't figure out a library card... But the library is you best and easiest bet. 

You really need to learn the basics.


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## Hoofpic

It was a tough choice but i decided NOT to go for the last two hours to todays clinic. Im dissapoointed after the whole incorrect advice on rearing. And like you guys said, rearing is one of the most serious vices.

Long drive too and it so hot here today.

Im working with Flt (only taught it from my coach last week) on moving her haunces. Shes getting better, shes not perfect but like coach says as long as she tries and i reward her.

Those guys in yesterdays clinic, i would say are pretty advanced. They made this stuff look so easy. All their formations when trotting was so unified and perfect. I watched each and everyone of them.


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## Hoofpic

I feel I can still get more from this clinic, and because I have a free pass to audit one day, Im going to check out the clinic tomorrow for a few hours.

Im sure a few of you guys feel im wasting my time with this guy?

Greentree, we have libraries here but i never go to them. I buy all my books on amazon. Ive also subscribed to amazon audible for horse books to listen to in the car but im shocked how limited the selection is and how pricey they are.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Horses can flip over with all four feet on the ground but it is unlikely they would need some sort of impulsion to get off the ground.
> 
> Rearing is a vice that is so dangerous it's not even funny. Not only can horses go up full vertical but one inch of pressure the wrong way they're flipping over on top of you probably crushing you and killing you.


Good to know, thanks. 

Im just more puzzled as to why Peter gave the advice that he did
Not just that, but a live demo with one of the participants and their own horse in front of everyone.


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## elle1959

I'm a little bit confused by this rearing controversy. He didn't say to try to back the horse while it is rearing, but to wait until all four feet are on the ground before doing it. Not going to argue over that, but what would people actually do to correct a horse that has just reared?


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## evilamc

elle1959 said:


> I'm a little bit confused by this rearing controversy. He didn't say to try to back the horse while it is rearing, but to wait until all four feet are on the ground before doing it. Not going to argue over that, but what would people actually do to correct a horse that has just reared?


I've been lucky enough to not really have to deal with rearing...but the few little times I've felt it could possibly happen, I send them FORWARD or yield the hind quarters. I get there feet moving a different way. Going backwards is just putting their weight back making it easier to go up. You have to redirect the energy. I guess if it happens before you're able to then You keep it from happening again by redirecting the energy?


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## Dehda01

elle1959 said:


> I'm a little bit confused by this rearing controversy. He didn't say to try to back the horse while it is rearing, but to wait until all four feet are on the ground before doing it. Not going to argue over that, but what would people actually do to correct a horse that has just reared?


I already said what to do but can repeat. Disengage backend to take away ability to rear as soon as safe to do so. Often you need to get them moving in a very tight circle until they are will to move forward again. Then you make them MOVE FORWARD. You really need to pay attention. I keep them with a exaggerated lateral bend until they really prove they can be trusted again. If they threaten again they get folded/circled tightly and made to move their hindquarters over. 

Rearing is a horse not wanting to go forward. You need to fix that and take their ability to go up away from them. They have difficulty going up when laterally flexed and moving forward.


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## elle1959

Thanks


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## Dehda01

But all of this really doesn't matter. Hoofpic should be years away from having to deal with problem horses. Right now you need to learn how to walk/trot/canter in rhythm. Basic horse care. How not to kill you and your horse. 

Get books. Read. Watch clinics, go to shows, take as many lessons as you can. RIDE AS MANY HORSES AS YOU CAN. Don't hobble yourself by just learning on one horse. They all have lessons to teach and feel very different. Keep your eyes open and your mouth shut. Much of it wont mean much to you about timing because you don't have timing and feel and won't for some time. 

And that is ok. We all started out there at some point.


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## Hoofpic

^ You guys are great for explaining it, thank you.

Well I'm not sure if Im going to be able to see the clinic today, just too busy with work. Im still trying my best to go but if I cant, no big deal and tomorrow I forsure can't go because I have a lesson in the afternoon.

I just got the news that my barn is once again having another 2 day riding clinic (same as the last one a couple months ago) and guess what? Remember, at the last one, I regret not at least bringing in Fly to have her just take in the experience? Well this time I can make up for it. I'm so happy we are having another one and so soon.


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## NeryLibra

The thing about horses is like someone else mentioned earlier, you're never going to learn everything you need to know off one mare. In fact, where I used to ride, no student was allowed to ride the same horse for more than a collected week at a time and usually rode someone different each lesson unless that horse was what met their challenges and educational need. This kept up until you displayed good basic flat and ground work on whoever you sat, and it produced some seriously skilled riders. 

To me it sounds like you need to get back to basics, and get additional help with Fly. It's great you want to take charge with her and be hands on, but you need a keener eye to help oversee what you're doing so you don't accidentally make things worse for yourself. There'll be nuances in her body language that you, as someone so green with little in the way of trainig experiences, will easily overlook. It's not an admission of defeat, but an admission of lack of knowledge, and furthering your will to learn.

The thing about a green horse is that she can't teach you to lead when she's only just learning herself. In order to learn, you'll need to get on someone else for a little while. You can always continue with Fly.. But it sounds like it'd be extremely beneficial to lesson with another mount. You have nothing to lose, and a whole world to gain by doing so.


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## Hoofpic

I dont know what it is but Im always questioning when and if I should talk to the BO. I know he has some days where hes tired and doesnt want to be bothered (he is in his 70s so I need to respect his time and privacy). If he doesnt feel like chattin, then I dont want to bother him.

As much as I want to share anything and everything with him, I need to realize that i cant. So if I talk to him about a clinic I just attended or whatever and he doesnt seem all that talkactive about it, then its a lesson learned that I cant just go up to him all the time with new stuff that ive learned or done etc. As much as I want to share with others, (same goes with the trainer), I need to learn that sometimes neither of them just dont care to listen to what I have to say.

Some days I talk to him and hes super talkactive and we end up chatting an hour or close to. But other days, he isnt talkactive at all. So I need to respect that.

I dont have the relationship with him that the trainer and other boarders (who have known him far longer than I have) have. I see it all the time in how he communicates with everyone, I know who he is closest to, and its fine by me. Afterall, I am still the newest boarder there, of the 7 (including me) total boarders there.


----------



## Hoofpic

Trainer showed me how to do the emergency jump off the horse. YES! 

And even though she hasnt taught me how to move the HQ yet from the saddle (just haunces), I am working on moving Flys haunces in the saddle. She will do it but she doesnt have it down pat yet. I would like her to because (especially after seeing it in Peters clinic), I do see how valuable it is, to be able to move your horses front and HQ over easily.

Fly will try to walk forward when i first ask. COach showed me the que to give her. So my coach said when she moves forward, to get her to woah first, then ask again. But since this is all about pressure and release, wouldnt I NOT stop her and keep asking her right through with my que until she stops walking forward and crosses those front feet?


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## greentree

You MUST study these terms. You have several things confused. 

Haunches and HQ(hindquarters ) are the SAME thing.

She is not crossing her FRONT feet while being asked to move her REAR end


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> But since this is all about pressure and release, wouldnt I NOT stop her and keep asking her right through with my que until she stops walking forward and crosses those front feet?


No.

Listen to your coach.

You are coming across as arrogant again, trying to prove your COACH wrong?

And like greentree said, front feet do not cross. Not unless you are asking the horse to move ONLY sideways, not forward and NOT just from haunches (same as hindquarters............)


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## palogal

You have a coach for a reason. Do as the coach says. Someone who does not know basic vocabulary has no business questioning the coach. There is nothing wrong with not knowing what you're doing (which you do not), everyone starts somewhere. Trust your coach and learn, soak up every word she says.


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## Rainaisabelle

Sorry is this disengaging the hind quarters of am I misinterpreting ?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You MUST study these terms. You have several things confused.
> 
> Haunches and HQ(hindquarters ) are the SAME thing.
> 
> She is not crossing her FRONT feet while being asked to move her REAR end


Ok I didnt know they were the same. Now, I know that she is pivoting (much better word) and not crossing her front feet.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> No.
> 
> Listen to your coach.
> 
> You are coming across as arrogant again, trying to prove your COACH wrong?
> 
> And like greentree said, front feet do not cross. Not unless you are asking the horse to move ONLY sideways, not forward and NOT just from haunches (same as hindquarters............)


Im not trying to prove anyone wrong, I just wanted some clarification thats all. Nothing wrong with that.


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## greentree

Yes, but you could ask HER, Instead of getting all confused by asking here also. 

Then she could SHOW you, right there, how the exercise gets done.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Ok I didnt know they were the same. Now, I know that she is pivoting (much better word) and not crossing her front feet.


 
Apparently those books you told us you were reading on another forum didn't sink in.....when a horse pivots, the horse DOES cross the front feet, with outside foot crossing in front of the inside front hoof and the inside rear hoof planted.


Get out those books you claimed to have purchased and read them!


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## tinyliny

Prairie said:


> Apparently those books you told us you were reading on another forum didn't sink in.....when a horse pivots, the horse DOES cross the front feet, with outside foot crossing in front of the inside front hoof and the inside rear hoof planted.
> 
> 
> Get out those books you claimed to have purchased and read them!
> 
> 
> Now I'm out of here again........



You need to cool down a bit. The op is still new at this and going to make mistakes, . . Like we all do.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

MODERATING: Everyone needs to keep in mind that this is the OP’s personal Journal and not a thread in the training section. 

Please keep it civil, polite, helpful and friendly.


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## greentree

Reining, I even went back and retread the post to make sure I had not misunderstood....in case he said turn ON the haunches, on which case she WOULD cross her front legs... Lol!


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## Hoofpic

Best buddies.


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## greentree

When do your horses finally shed their winter coat up there?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> When do your horses finally shed their winter coat up there?


Their coats came off about a month and a half ago. These pics were from March.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> You need to cool down a bit. The op is still new at this and going to make mistakes, . . Like we all do.





Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> MODERATING: Everyone needs to keep in mind that this is the OP’s personal Journal and not a thread in the training section.
> 
> Please keep it civil, polite, helpful and friendly.



Thanks


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The warning I posted above is more of a general reminder for all. 

It would be a shame to have a flare up in a personal journal.


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## waresbear

Hoofpic, it's so awesome how involved you are in horses. Keep at it!


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## jenkat86

I'd like to go back to this. 



Hoofpic said:


> And even though she hasnt taught me how to move the HQ yet from the saddle (just haunces), I am working on moving Flys haunces in the saddle.


Why are you trying to work on things that you haven't been taught yet?



Hoofpic said:


> She will do it but she doesnt have it down pat yet.


How are you cuing her? How is she responding?



Hoofpic said:


> I would like her to because (especially after seeing it in Peters clinic), I do see how valuable it is, to be able to move your horses front and HQ over easily.


It is a valuable thing for a horse AND rider to know how to do CORRECTLY. Does fly move off of your leg? Do you know how to ask for that? There are a lot of fundamentals that need to be taught BEFORE moving onto a more advanced maneuver like this, which is probably why your coach hasn't taught it yet. A and B come before C. 



Hoofpic said:


> Fly will try to walk forward when i first ask. COach showed me the que to give her. So my coach said when she moves forward, to get her to woah first, then ask again. But since this is all about pressure and release, wouldnt I NOT stop her and keep asking her right through with my que until she stops walking forward and crosses those front feet?


So...your coach did teach you how to ask for a pivot? I'm confused...


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## SEAmom

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> The warning I posted above is more of a general reminder for all.
> 
> It would be a shame to have a flare up in a personal journal.


It's a little misleading, however, because training questions are consistently being asked in a journal. These are conflicting purposes.


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## egrogan

SEAmom said:


> It's a little misleading, however, because training questions are consistently being asked in a journal. These are conflicting purposes.


I don't think we can dictate what people write about in a journal. My whole journal started off as essentially a training journal- how to turn an arena horse into a trail horse. I never felt I couldn't write what I wanted and continue to appreciate any feedback people are willing to share.

When I read something in this journal, or any other, that I don't understand, agree with, or find frustrating, I just don't respond (or I do in an exasperated way! ). Hoofpic is learning in something of an unorthodox way, but no one has to participate in his learning if/when it's frustrating to them.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

In the journal section, you are a guest of the OP in his personal story of his journey with horses, so keep the discussion helpful and constructive and within the boundries of our Concientious Etiquette Policy. 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-rules-community/conscientious-etiquette-policy-6069/ 

It isn't that you cannot discuss a topic, but rather HOW you discuss it. 

An OP should never dread coming to his/her own journal to relay his or her journey, feeling that they might be told they are being self centered or arrogant. Some things are just best left unsaid or require more thought on your part as to how to relay the same message in a more kindly manner so as to help (especially a beginner) and not hurt. 

If you are frustrated, often it is best to either take a breather or just not respond at all.


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## whisperbaby22

I think we have to consider this in the light of all the new horse owners who end up with a horse they cannot handle. How many of those do we see. Hoofpic is taking great care of this mare, is doing things slowly and coming along at his own pace. We can all agree on this.


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## jaydee

This is getting silly now
My apologies to Hoofpic for posting this on his Journal
Journals are like Blogs - places for members to share their personal experiences. No one has to comment on them at all but its nice to do it when you follow a members journal to let them know that you're interested in what they're doing and writing.
If you aren't interested, if what they do is boring or irritating to you then don't read them.
If you do follow someone and they ask a question or ask for advice then by all means give it in a polite, helpful way but we've got a whole forum specifically for that so if a member does want help then its better to start a thread there because its likely to get more attention.
Journals aren't places to go too to search through to see if some random member needs your help and really not places to start throwing out advice unless its actually requested and then only in a friendly, respectful way.


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## NeryLibra

Hoofpic, something that helps me (and many others!!) in my understanding of horses is to watch videos. This is something you've already found to be beneficial in the past. All over the internet, there's good, descriptive and educational videos for you to select from. But I'll link you to one of my favorite trainers. The cool thing about owning Fly is that you'll be able to work with her on whichever principles you'd like, but I must stress. *You need to make sure you have your coaches help.* There's no doubt in my mind that you can do this, but like I said earlier, a keener eye will help to prevent you from accidentally making things worse. 

Warwick Schiller - he's a no-nonsense horseman who is extremely adept at giving examples that are easy to follow. He follows the belief that all problems start with a horse that can't behave on the ground, and I've watched him prove it constantly in his videos. Rearing is atopic he covered briefly on his free youtube channel, but he has informative videos that you can pay for. The ones I've bought haven't at all left me disastisfied, which is why I'll link you to both his youtube account and his personal website. Whether you use his principles or not, the videos are well worth your time. I feel that you'll benefit greatly, like I did, from his explanations. 
Warwick Schiller Performance Horsemanship | Horse training, https://m.youtube.com/user/WarwickSchiller.j





, 



. These are two of the videos he has about rearing, and why it's dangerous. 

Another interesting channel is art2ride - 
art2ride.com | And https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCLTTnkE3oPSZAepGXqJlwQw. These videos aren't quite as focused on training, but rather critiquing how people ride. They do, however, have a greatly helpful series called "training the rider's eye." In the series, it's likely going to cover stuff you haven't seen or tried before, but it is pretty interesting. 

Learning horses is like learning a second language. I really wish I had found this page when I first started riding. http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/horsedictionary.shtml.


I look forward to keeping an eye on your journey, but remember to stand back and enjoy yourself! Horses and the people that train them (and they train us, too) really do have a lot to teach us that can be applied all over life. I even use some training techniques in my role as supervisor at work.. But I'm still very much a student when it comes to horses. And even though I've been on hiatus, I rode twice a week for 4 years.


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## Hoofpic

Thanks for the videos Nery. I am a huge fan of Warwick Schiller. The guy is just straight black and white, no games, he just says it as is. He is great in giving real life examples as well.

It sure sounds like you have trekked along quite well in terms of your learning by riding twice a week as well. Yes, you are right and I know to make sure I have my trainers help


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## Hoofpic

Dumb question but Ive been wanting to ask this for awhile.

Anyone here think its a bad idea to blanket horses that are in a herd? My main concern is it being a safety hazard. Say she gets bit by one of her mates and the strapes become loose etc. I would still like to throw my rain blanket on my mare when we get a decent amount of rain (theyre herd of 4 only have a 2 horse shelter), but Ive also been asked by peeople before on why I even bother blanketing my mare when it rains "you dont need it"...."she wont get cold" even in the summer rain.


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## Skyseternalangel

If she's shivering then she needs one, but if she isn't then it'll likely make her too hot.

I don't worry about their safety since blankets can easily be destroyed by another horse or the horse themselves, but more like the blanket getting damaged (they are expensive)

But that is just my view. I worry more about halters being left on in terms of safety


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> If she's shivering then she needs one, but if she isn't then it'll likely make her too hot.
> 
> I don't worry about their safety since blankets can easily be destroyed by another horse or the horse themselves, but more like the blanket getting damaged (they are expensive)
> 
> But that is just my view. I worry more about halters being left on in terms of safety


Thanks. Yes im also worried about her blanket getting destroyed and ripped in the herd. Her mates love to chew on things and all it takes is one of the snaps to break (ive had it happen before) and a strapis dangling and then it becomes a safety hazard when they run around and play. 

I blanketed her before but that was when she was alone.

We had a really bad thunderstorm last summer, about 10mm of rain a day for 3 or 4 days straight and i had the blanket on her each day. Cause i know that one day during last summers bad storm i happened to be grazing her (I figured no big deal we can stand in the rain) but then it got worse so I brought her in to dry her. I tied her and she was shivering, so i dried her off (took a while) and then blanketed her and waited for her to warm up before putting her back out.

At the time, the barns trainer (this was at the previous barn) happened to be in the barn when I was drying her off and I said shes cold cause shes shivering and she said not to worry about a horse shivering and that it doesnt mean that theyre cold. I was puzzled cause this made no sense to me. How can a shivering horse be warm?

So under heavier storms, yes my mare does benefit from blanketing and shes happier when i do it.


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## Skyseternalangel

You can help ease a shivering or cold horse by providing lots of hay/forage


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## Hoofpic

Well today was a forgetable day. Havent had a day this bad (cant even remember! Id say at the last barn), but I rack it up as a learning experience. 

I came here in anticipation of my lesson and it turned out to be a nightmare. Was not expecting this at all. I need to put today behind. It took me (trainer ended up catching Fly) an hour and a bit to catch Fly today. I didnt end up riding her cause my trainer said it woukdnt be a good idea but to take her to the roundpen and kick her ***. So i brushed her first, so that I wasnt upset in the roundpen then i took her to the roundpen for about 10mins.

I dont know what was up with her today but my friend boarder said she went to catch a couple other mares this morning and they were hard to catch, so something was happening making the mares all jacked uo.

My trainer was not happy with my mare and my BO had to help us out, as well as another boarder. It was a team efforr just to catch her, we had to corner her.

One of my friend boarders says my mare is still in heat but my coach doesnt think she is. There was lots of factors today. It was windy today and a new mare has been brought into the herd today so I spent a lot of the day watching them. I love watching a new member get put into a new herd.

I need to convince myself that this never happened.


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## Hoofpic




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## Hoofpic




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## Hoofpic




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## Dwarf

Hoofpic said:


>


Beautiful photos! Can I ask what camera you use?


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## Hoofpic

Dwarf said:


> Beautiful photos! Can I ask what camera you use?


Thanks. I use a Panasonic FZ1000 for my photos.


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## Hoofpic

Well she was back to normal today when catching her. Still not sure what was up with yesterday, but my trainer said sometimes horses are just horses. I think what was most important, was that I went back to the barn today with a reset mind and I didnt have any doubt in my mind that she would be easy to catch.

I brought her in and rode her on my own, just around some jump stands in circles and over logs and inbetween logs. Also worked on my circles, going from 10m, to 15, to 20 and so on. Also, I got my mare to stand pretty well (a lot better than before) when I mount her. I tell her to woah and she will stand. Its all those times from me getting on her, then back off, then back on, (trainers advice) has been paying off.

Im also working on getting her to stand and not go anywhere until I "tell her" to walk or walk on. She has a tendency to just walk off as soon as i get on and shes gotten better.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I need to convince myself that this never happened.


Hoofpic, Why do you look at things like this as such a bad thing? And do you see it as a setback?

BTW- I REALLY like that first picture you posted of the four of them lined up like that.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Hoofpic, Why do you look at things like this as such a bad thing? And do you see it as a setback?


Well I know that horses are just horses on some days (more so mares than geldings once you factor in them getting in heat, more up and down mood, sensing full moons, etc), but when this first happened on Saturday and I was out in the field for over an hour trying to catch Fly, the first thing I thought to myself...its my fault, holes in her training, if she was better on the ground, she wouldnt be doing this, this shouldnt be happening, its a sign of my lack of training on her, etc. But I knew it wasn't the case.

When I left the barn that night, I asked myself, should this have happened? Of course not, but horses are horses and they have their momemts and some times there is nothing you can do about it. Was it my fault that it happened? No. 

But I still dont, in any way regret taking her to the roundpen after. Now, I was very careful in how I roundpenned her. Im not into roundpenning a horse for 20mins non stop or (like a former boarder at the old barn would always tell me, "do it until their legs fall off!!!"). I put pressure on her to go, but I made sure I didnt apply too much, change of direction a handful of times, and as soon as I saw that inside ear turn to me, her head lower a bit and lick and chew, I stopped. With Fly, she usually gives in pretty quickly, so it didnt last anymore than 3 or 4mins if that.

Someone who comes to the barn every now and then to visit was out yesterday and kept trying to tell me "oh it was the wind, it was the wind". Im like "No it wasnt because it was 10x windier yesterday than it was on Saturday". It was primarily because they had a new member brought into the herd and Fly and her two gelding mates were jacked up with energy. Im a strong believer that was THE reason.

Now, yesterday, the BO took my lesson horse out of the herd and I feel that was a big reason why Fly was easy to catch yesterday. If she was in there, I would have a feeling, it might have been the same thing repeated on Sunday. Im not sure why he took her out, but I dont know if he feels my mares herd is a good fit for the lesson mare, hes just experimenting right now with where to put her. But there is a chance that he took her out yesterday so that I dont run into the same problem yesterday. If this was the case, its very thoughtful of him, but on the other hand, its always something I will eventually have to learn to handle on my own.

Im confident that my mare is no longer in heat even though a friend boarder claims she is, but my trainer says shes not. She was about a week ago but not anymore.



> BTW- I REALLY like that first picture you posted of the four of them lined up like that.


Thanks, I love it too. That was from Saturday, the herd was so jacked up and very clingy to each other (because of the lesson mare being in there) so it made it easy for me to get pics like that of all 4 of them lined up like that with their ears up. I put it up (as well as a few others) onto the photo wall in the viewing room. BO really liked the first set of pictures I gave to him with the muzzles etc.


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## Hoofpic

Anyone here have a gopher hole problem where your horse is at? We have tons of gophers and ground squirrels at our place constantly digging up holes. Im always in the field filling them with poop and then they just dig the hole up again. Some of the holes have actually stayed packed with the poop I filled them with for months now, others last not even a day before I see the poop back out. Its very annoying. Thankfully the field my mare is in, isnt nearly as bad or dangerous as some of the others. But I still feel much safer and better knowing each hole is filled. Now, I know my BO has poison to put deep in the holes but im not 100% what he uses. 

From my research mice poison wont work, you will need to put so much deep inside the holes to have it kill a gopher or squirrel. You need actual gopher grain and Rosal mixed and its very expensive! $99 for a 20lb bag and $200 for a 50lb.


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## greentree

You need a Rodenator! You will have to google it...it is so entertaining!


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You need a Rodenator! You will have to google it...it is so entertaining!


Do you have problems with gopher holes at your barn?

My biggest concern is that any horse can get their foot inside and stuck and get seriously injured. It happened at the old barn, horse had to be put down 

This is why Im always out in my mares field filling the holes with poop. Ive become paranoid about this. Mind you, the holes in my mares field are not near as huge as the other ones there. But also Fly has small feet. Some of them in the other pastures are so big, I could slip my foot and leg down and in the hole. 

I need to get some poison, but this stuff aint cheap. Only one place locally sells it and its $100 for a 20lb bag or $200 for a 50lb bag. Yikes.


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## egrogan

Please don't go putting poison on your BOs field! Poisoning rodents can have a major negative impact on your local predators.


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## greentree

No, but I have continuing education credits in gophers and moles (I have a degree in Agriculture, have pesticide applicators license.....)
If I had gophers, I would get a Rodenator.

Agree with egrogan...no poison!


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## karliejaye

I have a friend who was having major gopher and rockchuck issues. They tried so many options, then got the Rodenator. It has by far been the best they have tried in 15+ years of battling rodents. 


As for a risk to the horses, it is, but it isn't a HUGE risk, in my experience. Accidents do happen, and I certainly wouldn't ride in a field with a lot of gopher holes, but I wouldn't stress TOO much about it.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Please don't go putting poison on your BOs field! Poisoning rodents can have a major negative impact on your local predators.


No he says its fine if I put poison down the holes, because other boarders have done it in their fields where theyre horses are at. He says, he could do it for me but I want to save himself the trouble. There are a couple empty fields that horses used to be in, but he took them out temporarily for the grass to grow back, that he will drive out to a few times in the day times to fill the holes with poison. He drives out with a bucket and 2 spoons of poison well down the holes. Not sure what my BO has that he uses for poison though.

What do you mean when you say poisining rodents can have a major negative impact on local predators? Are you saying the dead rodents can draw in predators?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> No, but I have continuing education credits in gophers and moles (I have a degree in Agriculture, have pesticide applicators license.....)
> If I had gophers, I would get a Rodenator.
> 
> Agree with egrogan...no poison!


Rodenators aren't cheap and IMO I would have to get the BO's permission to bring one in. He might not even allow it. Infact (seeing how he's just been putting poison down the holes with a spoon) for the past few years (at least), I dont see why he would want to change anything, if what he's been doing has been working.


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## Dehda01

The problem with poison is secondary kill and environmental toxins. Do you want the toxins leeching out of the dead body into a predator that could eat the body and killing them or into the environment possibly exposing your mare?


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## Rainaisabelle

Do not put poison in your paddock !


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## EliRose

Absolute BS to even think that your BO would allow poison but not a Rodenator! It is a much more effective tool, and kinder to the environment. It also actually destroys the tunnels.


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## EliRose

I have to say it is frightening that you don't understand that poisioning rodents = poisoning important predators/potentially the groundwater. That's grade school stuff.


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## egrogan

Dehda01 said:


> The problem with poison is secondary kill and environmental toxins. Do you want the toxins leeching out of the dead body into a predator that could eat the body and killing them or into the environment possibly exposing your mare?


Agreed, this is what I meant...


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> The problem with poison is secondary kill and environmental toxins. Do you want the toxins leeching out of the dead body into a predator that could eat the body and killing them or into the environment possibly exposing your mare?


So you mean if say I put poison in the hole, it kills some gophers and it attracts cougars and can be a safety risky for my mare and the herd? Cause the predator will come follow the scent of the toxins from the dead gophers.

Of course I dont want that! 

Aha! Now I know why the other boarders who have put poison in holes in the other fields, did it when there was no horses living in those pastures.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Do not put poison in your paddock !


She's in a field, but I wont do it. Im glad i checked with you guys first.



EliRose said:


> Absolute BS to even think that your BO would allow poison but not a Rodenator! It is a much more effective tool, and kinder to the environment. It also actually destroys the tunnels.


Rodenators are pretty much exterminators right? I know they are worth it, (though pricey), saves the hassles of putting out poisons, traps etc.

I think the biggest reason why he hasnt done it, is because at a barn, gophers (obviously depending on the area too) and other rodents will always be an on-going problem. Just like with mosquitos, bees and wasps, it can be worse one year, but much better the next. 

For instance, at my previous barn we had mice. But also the barn cats took care of them. There is no mice at the barn Im at now, but we have gophers (which are much worse IMO).

Plus, at a barn, over 20 or 25 acres, a rodenator would cost a fortune.



EliRose said:


> I have to say it is frightening that you don't understand that poisioning rodents = poisoning important predators/potentially the groundwater. That's grade school stuff.


I am not ashamed to admit, that yes, I did NOT know this.

BTW, what do you mean by poisoning important preadtors and the groundwater?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My father grew up during the Great Depression on a farm. What he did when I was growing up was stick a hose in the hole and flush the gophers out. I probably don't need to tell you what he did when the little ******s came running out to escape the water.....


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## Hoofpic

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> My father grew up during the Great Depression on a farm. What he did when I was growing up was stick a hose in the hole and flush the gophers out. I probably don't need to tell you what he did when the little ******s came running out to escape the water.....


I have seen that actually, on youtube. Apparently is quite effective. Only thing is, you have to be right at the hole as the gopher is right inside and from what I know, (friend boarder also told me yesterday she saw a bunch of gophers out yesterday morning before I got there at 11am), these rodents come out in the morning. 

Because Friday night I was filling all the holes with poop. I use my foot and really pack it down deep inside the hole so I can fill it up. Then I fill it right to the top and pack it down with my foot so it doesnt just sink when weight is put on it.

Then Sat afternoon I get out there and theres 7 or 8 holes that I just packed, all exposed again. I couldnt believe it. So I filled them again. Then Sunday, the holes were exposed again! So I once again packed them. 

I wish we could keep these guys out of the field, its really annoying. So tomorrow I will go back out and I know I will have holes to fill again.



karliejaye said:


> I have a friend who was having major gopher and rockchuck issues. They tried so many options, then got the Rodenator. It has by far been the best they have tried in 15+ years of battling rodents.
> 
> 
> As for a risk to the horses, it is, but it isn't a HUGE risk, in my experience. Accidents do happen, and I certainly wouldn't ride in a field with a lot of gopher holes, but I wouldn't stress TOO much about it.


Well many months ago, I thought big rocks and stuff like a wood log and branches could be a safety hazard for horses in a field, simply cause if they were to accidentally run and stomp on it awkwardly, they could get stone bruise.

But gopher holes IMO are much more of a safety hazard. You just never know. They run so fast and at night, I highly doubt horses are looking closely where theyre walking.


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## Rainaisabelle

You can safety proof your paddock all you like they will just find something else to hurt themselves on.


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## Knave

When the horses are out I personally would trap. We trap gophers and poison squirrels (which can kill a dog or cat who catches one so we keep them locked up for three days following poisoning) in our pivots. Gopher traps work great though, but I wouldn't want to do either with the horses in the pen. The horse might eat the poison or get hurt on a trap.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> She's in a field, but I wont do it. Im glad i checked with you guys first.
> 
> 
> 
> Rodenators are pretty much exterminators right? I know they are worth it, (though pricey), saves the hassles of putting out poisons, traps etc.
> 
> I think the biggest reason why he hasnt done it, is because at a barn, gophers (obviously depending on the area too) and other rodents will always be an on-going problem. Just like with mosquitos, bees and wasps, it can be worse one year, but much better the next.
> 
> For instance, at my previous barn we had mice. But also the barn cats took care of them. There is no mice at the barn Im at now, but we have gophers (which are much worse IMO).
> 
> Plus, at a barn, over 20 or 25 acres, a rodenator would cost a fortune.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not ashamed to admit, that yes, I did NOT know this.
> 
> BTW, what do you mean by poisoning important preadtors and the groundwater?


Hoofpic. Poison can get into the groundwater. That kills things other than gophers. A cougar or hawk gets a poisoned gopher, the cougar or hawk dies because you're poisoning them too. Or if there ar barn cats? They're dead. Ever heard of Silent Spring? Please educate yourself before you even think of putting poison out. Or, even better, spend your money on calling an actual exterminator.

The whole point of the Rodenator is that the tunnels are destroyed, making it much more likely that the gophers come back . . . There slogan is literally something like "they won't be back." And rodents are completely different from insects.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> You can safety proof your paddock all you like they will just find something else to hurt themselves on.


I know, but wouldnt you agree that gopher holes is a safety risk?


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can safety proof your paddock all you like they will just find something else to hurt themselves on.
> 
> 
> 
> I know, but wouldnt you agree that gopher holes is a safety risk?
Click to expand...

Sure but the fact you're willing to poison will just cause more issues.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Rodenators aren't cheap and IMO I would have to get the BO's permission to bring one in. He might not even allow it. Infact (seeing how he's just been putting poison down the holes with a spoon) for the past few years (at least), I dont see why he would want to change anything, if what he's been doing has been working.


If he still has the rodents what he's been doing has not been working.


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## jenkat86

I think you should give your horse and the other horses a little bit of credit. They LIVE in those pastures. They know far more about what's going on in it than you or I ever will. Quit worrying. 

They could slice their leg open on the fence and get an oozing infection just as easily as stepping in a gopher hole...

Let your BO manage his barn.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Hoofpic. Poison can get into the groundwater. That kills things other than gophers. A cougar or hawk gets a poisoned gopher, the cougar or hawk dies because you're poisoning them too. Or if there ar barn cats? They're dead. Ever heard of Silent Spring? Please educate yourself before you even think of putting poison out. Or, even better, spend your money on calling an actual exterminator.
> 
> The whole point of the Rodenator is that the tunnels are destroyed, making it much more likely that the gophers come back . . . There slogan is literally something like "they won't be back." And rodents are completely different from insects.


I didnt realize that. So a dead dopher can attract and bring in a predator like a coyote from a mile away.

I do know that gophers come back every spring and summer but go away as in the winters. So theyre a problem for about 4-6 months out of the year since our spring and summer seasons are really short.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I think you should give your horse and the other horses a little bit of credit. They LIVE in those pastures. They know far more about what's going on in it than you or I ever will. Quit worrying.
> 
> They could slice their leg open on the fence and get an oozing infection just as easily as stepping in a gopher hole...
> 
> Let your BO manage his barn.


Ok I wont worry so much, but Im still going to continue filling and packing the holes with poop when Im there.



natisha said:


> If he still has the rodents what he's been doing has not been working.


I think the gopher problem is on the entire field, which would include his neighbours down the road so to get rid of the problem through prevention, the exterminator would have to cover and work on the area around the barn as well.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Ok I wont worry so much, but Im still going to continue filling and packing the holes with poop when Im there.


You are wasting time when you could be reading and learning....fill the holes with cement.


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## NeryLibra

While gopher removal is beyond me, remember that over time, poop will begin to decompose. Filling a hole with something that will easily break down won't really do much in the way of prevention. Not to mention, unless you're packing the holes extremely well, it's questionable that the manure will stand up to weather and the weight of the horses. It makes me wonder if filling the holes with such a weak substance would be like putting leaves over a trap in a forest...if the horses start to confuse your poop filled holes with solid ground, I wonder if that won't present problems later? Just a thought.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, you're beating your head against the wall filling those gopher holes with poop. It hasn't worked so far and won't work in the future either since the gophers just redig that hole. Gophers are present year around, but are less active in the winter so you most likely won't see them. If you want information on something, just do a little research on the internet and save yourself the time asking so many questions on subjects that really are outside the scope of your responsibilities at the barn. Leave the running of the barn to the BO---that's what you pay him for!


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Ok I wont worry so much, but Im still going to continue filling and packing the holes with poop when Im there.


Well...do whatever floats your boat. But it's a lot of work for nothing.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You are wasting time when you could be reading and learning....fill the holes with cement.


Cement? You mean the tubed cement? I never thought of that actually.


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## Hoofpic

NeryLibra said:


> While gopher removal is beyond me, remember that over time, poop will begin to decompose. Filling a hole with something that will easily break down won't really do much in the way of prevention. Not to mention, unless you're packing the holes extremely well, it's questionable that the manure will stand up to weather and the weight of the horses. It makes me wonder if filling the holes with such a weak substance would be like putting leaves over a trap in a forest...if the horses start to confuse your poop filled holes with solid ground, I wonder if that won't present problems later? Just a thought.


Well about 3 months I filled every single hole in the field with poop and most have stayed packed like the day I filled them. So when the gophers are digging them back up, theyre not all the holes (thank god), just a couple handfuls or so. 

Ive been checking on them through the rain and stuff and they seem to be holding up quite well. When they get packed down, I will just put more poop in the holes to level them back up to the ground but this isnt too often.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Cement? You mean the tubed cement? I never thought of that actually.


NO....do NOT go filling up your BO's pastures with cement! Hoofpic....


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, you're beating your head against the wall filling those gopher holes with poop. It hasn't worked so far and won't work in the future either since the gophers just redig that hole. Gophers are present year around, but are less active in the winter so you most likely won't see them. If you want information on something, just do a little research on the internet and save yourself the time asking so many questions on subjects that really are outside the scope of your responsibilities at the barn. Leave the running of the barn to the BO---that's what you pay him for!


Well the BO already has enough on his plate and he fills the other 2 empty fields with poison down the holes, so I dont want to put more duties on his plate. I told him, I will take care of my mares field by filling the holes with poop and he said thats fine. This was a few months ago.

Now what I would LOVE to do myself is muck the entire field but I know its not needed because one of the girls harrolds the field and spreads the poop. If there is one thing I miss doing at the barn, its mucking poop. I know it sounds wierd but im still used to mucking poop daily as I did when my mare was in a paddock. It took some time for me to accept my mare being in a field that is not cleaned out like a paddock is.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> NO....do NOT go filling up your BO's pastures with cement! Hoofpic....


Don't worry, Im not going to be. Plus that stuff is expensive, would be costly to fill an entire field.


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## Prairie

If the barn is harrowing pastures, I sure hope they are removing the horses so they aren't grazing where the poop was spread and reinfecting themselves with worms. 


As you've already discovered, filling the holes with poop doesn't work. Better would be to make the area friendly to snakes that would hunt the gophers and eliminate them. We don't have a rodent problem on our property because the barn cats patrol the barn and we encourage non-venomous snakes to live here to kill off rodents in the pasture.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> If the barn is harrowing pastures, I sure hope they are removing the horses so they aren't grazing where the poop was spread and reinfecting themselves with worms.
> 
> 
> As you've already discovered, filling the holes with poop doesn't work. Better would be to make the area friendly to snakes that would hunt the gophers and eliminate them. We don't have a rodent problem on our property because the barn cats patrol the barn and we encourage non-venomous snakes to live here to kill off rodents in the pasture.


Yes the horses are removed from the field and put in the one next to it while their field is being harrolded.

We have 4 cats at the barn but they mostly hang out inside the barn. Filling holes doesnt work but it just hides the problem and prevents it from getting worse. Thankfully my mare is in one of the better fields.

Snakes would work but they would probably get eaten quickly by coyotes. We've had baby yotes pass through outside the fields before. Well outside the fields and not often.


----------



## Prairie

How long after it's harrow before the horses are returned to the pasture? The sun and heat have to "cook" the worm eggs to kill them after the poop is spread----that may take a week or more depending on the weather. 


If coyotes are in the area, they won't be killing snakes since the snakes are going to be in the tunnels on the hunt for gophers. Most animals avoid snakes since there is much easier prey to kill.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I didnt realize that. So a dead dopher can attract and bring in a predator like a coyote from a mile away.
> 
> I do know that gophers come back every spring and summer but go away as in the winters. So theyre a problem for about 4-6 months out of the year since our spring and summer seasons are really short.


*THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING*. Sorry for the all caps, but WOW is this frustrating!

It IS NOT going to entice predators, but predators already DO eat the rodents. Rarely does poison actually kill immediately, and predators will still be hunting. Read. Educate yourself.

Warning that the link to the first picture could be considered graphic. Redtail hawk dead from eating a poisoned rodent. Same thing could happen to a cat.

https://files.allaboutbirds.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Lima.jpg

Read, please:
http://sfwildlife.com/blog/item/this-hawk-will-probably-die-soon-here-s-why-2

FYI, just because the gophers are "gone" (they're hibernating, not dead) the holes are still there.


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## Dehda01

Secondary kill is when predators are killed by the poison from the prey they eat. So cats, hawks, coyotes, fox die because they eat the mice or gophers that eat the animals you poison. That erodes the entire food chain of your area. Bad news. Poison is BAD! Bad for you, bad for water sources, bad for the animals you love, bad for the animal you don't realize are important to your ecosystem.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> How long after it's harrow before the horses are returned to the pasture? The sun and heat have to "cook" the worm eggs to kill them after the poop is spread----that may take a week or more depending on the weather.
> 
> 
> If coyotes are in the area, they won't be killing snakes since the snakes are going to be in the tunnels on the hunt for gophers. Most animals avoid snakes since there is much easier prey to kill.


The horses are put back in maybe an hour after their field is done being harrolded. 

I dont like snakes, they make my skin crawl. Im not a fan of any kind of rodent or lizard. Squirrels and rabbits are cute though.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> *THAT IS NOT WHAT I AM SAYING*. Sorry for the all caps, but WOW is this frustrating!
> 
> It IS NOT going to entice predators, but predators already DO eat the rodents. Rarely does poison actually kill immediately, and predators will still be hunting. Read. Educate yourself.
> 
> Warning that the link to the first picture could be considered graphic. Redtail hawk dead from eating a poisoned rodent. Same thing could happen to a cat.
> 
> https://files.allaboutbirds.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Lima.jpg
> 
> Read, please:
> This hawk will probably die soon. Here's why.
> 
> FYI, just because the gophers are "gone" (they're hibernating, not dead) the holes are still there.



Sorry, I dont mean to make your frustrated, I dont have very good reading comprehension.

Now I get it, thank you for the link. It makes much sense now.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Secondary kill is when predators are killed by the poison from the prey they eat. So cats, hawks, coyotes, fox die because they eat the mice or gophers that eat the animals you poison. That erodes the entire food chain of your area. Bad news. Poison is BAD! Bad for you, bad for water sources, bad for the animals you love, bad for the animal you don't realize are important to your ecosystem.


I see it now. Yes you are right, poison (of any kind) is just bad bad bad stuff to have anywhere. BO knows this too, this is why he will only put poison down holes with no horses living in that pasture. Even if you put the poison deep into the hole, there is a chance that a gopher can still push it back up to the surface.

Anyways, today wasnt too bad, seeing how I didnt go to the barn yesterday, today I only had to refill 4 holes.


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## Hoofpic

Have I mentioned to you guys? Our barn is having another riding clinic this August and I will be riding Fly in it on both days! Trainer said "I think you should ride Fly this time" I said "I am". Remember how last time I was kicking myself for at least not bringing her in and tying her so that she can soak in the experience? Well Im more than going to make up for it now. Its going to be such a valuable experience for her, she has never experienced anything like a clinic before.


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## Rainaisabelle

Awesome


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## Hoofpic

My lesson mare was put back into my mares herd today. Looks like the BO is going to give it another go. The herd wasn't nearly as worked up today as they were on Saturday. A couple more days and my lesson mare should be settled in and mesh in with the crew. I was watching the herd today for a bit hanging outside the field and there was still some chasing going on. Chasing and kicking out at each other. The other mare is too laid back to chase or kick out at any horse. Its mostly the two geldings starting all the chasing and kicking out since they are the top dogs of the herd. Exact same thing as when Fly was first put into the herd. 

But just found out today from the trainer that the lesson mare is lame right now. . Not sure if the BO is going to get a vet out but I hope so, this mare has been through a lot (with her soar spots), and because since the BO nor my trainer believe in equine chiro or massage, its tough. Over the past few months, shes had this really odd sensitivity with the side of her barrels that no one has been able (not even the vet) to figure out. The lesson mare will lash out viciiously at students and riders by trying to bite them, when they try to brush her there, even lightly. No one can figure it out. 

My guess? I bet she has ribs out. When my ex's mare tried to viciously bite her when she was being brushed, it was because she had ribs out. When my mare tried to bite me and wasnt happy when I brushed her many months ago, it was because she had sore spots from the lesson saddle...and she happened to have a rib out and her poll was out. But her withers, topline and flank were all tight. One chiro adjustment fixed it, it was like magic. Im very lucky that my responds so well to chiro and massage.

I just hope this lesson mare can recover well and quickly. I know life of a lesson horse is really hard on the horse mentally and physically especially when you have so many different people (of all shapes and sizes) riding you.

I just know that horses benefit SO MUCH from chiro and massage, no doubt about it. Throw in red light therapy as well (my mare heals amazing from this).


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## EliRose

Honestly, she probably has ulcers.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

@EliRose- My thoughts exactly.


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## jaydee

Ulcers don't miraculously disappear after a chiro/massage session, if that solves the problem then you know it wasn't ulcers but if it doesn't help then they should consider ulcer treatment


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

@jaydee- Yes, but I believe Eli and I were both referring to the lesson mare. Not Fly.

Hoofpic mentioned in his last post that his neither BO or trainer believe in chiro or massage for horses, so I think it is safe to assume that the lesson mare hasn't been adjusted at least at this barn =)


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## jaydee

And does this BO/Trainer believe in treating for ulcers?


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

You'll have to wait for Hoofpic's answer on that one, but I would hope that treating ulcers is something all horse people believe in =)


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## Rainaisabelle

jaydee said:


> Ulcers don't miraculously disappear after a chiro/massage session, if that solves the problem then you know it wasn't ulcers but if it doesn't help then they should consider ulcer treatment


I feel like Jaydee was referring to the fact that chiro and massage don't fix everything .. And that even after a massage or chiro session the mare may not be better


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## jenkat86

OP did say a vet has looked at the lesson horse...you'd think a vet would definitely consider ulcers since those are classic symptoms. Perhaps that did happen and they were ruled out. In that case a chiro adjustment may be what she's needing...?


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> And does this BO/Trainer believe in treating for ulcers?


Isnt ulcers very painful and can be deadly?


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Isnt ulcers very painful and can be deadly?


Yes. And apparently I need at least "six characters" to post a simple reply.


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## Rainaisabelle

I'm not sure that they are deadly by themselves they'd probably have secondary complications that cause death... But they are painful


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## Prairie

It's my understanding that if the horse has hind gut ulcers, that there is no way to diagnose them except by trying some ulcer med to see if the problems go away??????


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## jenkat86

Prairie said:


> It's my understanding that if the horse has hind gut ulcers, that there is no way to diagnose them except by trying some ulcer med to see if the problems go away??????


I've always understood that to be the case with hind-gut. 

And while the ulcers themselves aren't necessarily deadly, they increase the risk of colic significantly- which we all know how that can end.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> OP did say a vet has looked at the lesson horse...you'd think a vet would definitely consider ulcers since those are classic symptoms. Perhaps that did happen and they were ruled out. In that case a chiro adjustment may be what she's needing...?


I feel really bad for this mare, she is a good mare but the past 8-9 months she hasn't been herself. I think she could use some time off and with her now being lame, it doesnt help her cause. Im almost certain she can really benefit from chiro.

I think all lesson horses should have chiro on an ongoing basis and perhaps need them more often than non lesson horses. 

Remember how I was telling you how (when I was riding her) that I didnt feel comfortable even brushing her because I know there wasnt something right with her? Well Im glad Im no longer riding her because IMO she needs time off.


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## jaydee

Mild ulcers are more common than people realize and a lot of horses are stoic enough to just live with them and display no symptoms, as long as the horse is always fed well and regularly, not taking medications like NSAID's that aggravate/compromise the lining of the stomach and not being subjected to constant stress then they tend to go unnoticed. Even fast work on a relatively empty stomach can cause them and most people who compete at upper level will have their horses on some form of ulcer protection when they think they're at risk
Some vets won't give any prescription medication without doing an endoscopy which is expensive and invasive so not risk free, others if they see symptoms like colic, weight loss, general lack of condition and tenderness in specific areas will just prescribe Omeprazole or advise a course of antacid and something that creates a buffer to protect the lining
The fact that the horse has already been seen by a vet makes me think he didn't suspect ulcers - and the horse is now lame so sounds more like it's got something else going wrong, maybe arthritis? 
If people have got a good Chiro that doesn't just hammer away at bones in some notion that they're moving them around then no harm in using them if they're seeing good results but you do need to be very careful about who you use and what they're doing


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## Prairie

Curious, how do you know the mare is just not herself? What are the symptoms outside of the lameness? Chiropractic adjustments and massages are not the cure for everything nor does every horse need them----Back on Track sheets can do wonders if the issue is muscular or arthritis for example.


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## Hoofpic

I will reply to some posts in the morning but just wanted to get this out there.


Today my coach taught me for the very first time yielding. I have to say its still very new to me, we did it a few times today and I have no doubt it will feel natural to me the more I practice, but she wants me to work on this with Fly on my own, as well as turning her haunces, getting fly to stand and not walk on until I tell her to walk on right after I get on her.

Im able to get on Fly now with her standing, which is great! Dont need a mounting block (never used it with Fly but always had to have the trainer hold her for me). Shes not perfect, sometimes she will still take a step away but then i stay with her and say WOAH and she gets the point. All those times of me getting on her, getting off, getting on repeatedly is paying off and i will do some more.

So today was great because my trainer just let me take Fly into the arena and get on her on my own without her having to stand next to her and hold her. 

Guess what? I FINALLY took Jenkats advice and moved my stirrups up one notch. Not sure how I felt about it. Its amazing how much of a difference just one notch makes. I did feel better but it took some adjustment thats forsure. Will run with it for the next while and see how it is. My legs felt shorter and I felt a bit more higher up.

Also, great news, trainer felt I was ready to ride (at least for a bit and get a feel for it) Fly with the reigns right on the bit. Lets just say that I immediately (my trainer as well) noticed an immediate improvement and difference in terms of my hands and reign control. Softer hands and more leg. This is my goal. Like I told my trainer, with me knowing that the reigns are right on the bit and I dont have the buffer anymore in terms of me being able to get away with extra tension in those reigns, I go the extra effort and mile in making sure those reigns are as light as possible and that I dont pull. So my trainer wants to make it a habit now of me riding Fly directly on the bit. But for the next while here, will slowly get myself used to it while transitioning over. So I will start my lessons off with the reigns looped on the outside of the halter, then go directly on the bit.

My hands are so much better. My balance is so much better. I would love to show a video but i wont just yet. Perhaps just before the riding clinic in a months time, ill see.

Trainer says im progressing really well and I honestly believe shes being truthful about that and not just saying it to keep me as her customer (like some on here think is the case).

Still working on a ton of circles...20m, down to 15, then down to 10, then back up to 15, etc. I am really amazed how beneficial circles are especially when you constantly change the size of them, change direction etc.

That 10min session from a couple weeks ago where I was able to get Fly to trot without stopping was a big step for us IMO in terms of not only her rythym but keeping her pace consistent and where i want it to be.


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## Hoofpic

Over the past couple weeks, my trainer has also introduced tear drops to me, 3/4 turns (I think thats what theyre called), trotting down the centre of the arena and trying to maintain a straight line as possible (its amazing how much more difficult it is without the walls to support you), 4 and 5 loop serpentines, emergency dismounting, reaching for my toes, horses tail, etc while in the saddle, etc. There might be a couple others that im forgetting, but its been a lot of information over the past few weeks. Im lovin it and just soaking it all in. Im having so much fun!

Theres one thing that I need to keep harping myself on (because the trainer has mentioned it to me a couple weeks ago and shes right on the nail). Im much better when I keep my eyes looking far ahead of where im going. Shes been having me get into the routine of looking even well down the other end of the arena as im turning away from one end. As im going up to one letter, Im already turning to look at the next. She says that im a different rider when my eyes are looking well well ahead of me. Theyre getting better, but im challenging myself to get a lot better because i still see a lot of room for improvement in this area. 

You look at all those guys doing cowboy challenge and barrel racing, theyre looking so far ahead of where theyre going.


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## Hoofpic

And one thing I need to mention and hopefully Golden reads this (because I took your advice on this)....Ive really cooled off in terms of being so analytical of myself, what I need to do, stop doing and just going with the flow from ride to ride. Im going by feel and what Fly is telling me and how she is responding to me.

She is a very willing mare in the saddle in terms of making the rider happy. Ive started to really see this about 3 lessons ago. What Ive learned is that as long as you give her clear direction, she will try her hardest for you and my trainer said thats a quality in a horse that cant be overlooked.


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## greentree

Hooray for "soft eyes"!! Sounds like you are making wonderful progress.

Did you ever stand next to a chain link fence, and shift your eyes on it? You can focus on it, and still see past it, or focus on what is past it, and still see it... That is how we should ride. Looking out beyond the horse, but still seeing the horse in our peripheral vision. 

Practice this when you go out to catch her, too. May help you have fewer of your "forgettable" times!

Good work!!


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hooray for "soft eyes"!! Sounds like you are making wonderful progress.
> 
> Did you ever stand next to a chain link fence, and shift your eyes on it? You can focus on it, and still see past it, or focus on what is past it, and still see it... That is how we should ride. Looking out beyond the horse, but still seeing the horse in our peripheral vision.
> 
> Practice this when you go out to catch her, too. May help you have fewer of your "forgettable" times!
> 
> Good work!!


Thanks.

I havent tried the fence looking because we dont have chain fences but Ive done exaclty that with other obstacles like the horse shelter or whatever is near me. Ive done this mainly when i was wanting to relax my body language and still pick up on what Fly was doing but without having to look at her. 

My trainer has been getting me to do this when riding and learning where her ears are pointed to and head is angled towards and making sure her inside ear is towards the inside of the arena and her head is angled a bit inwards. We do this to keep her focus on me and not on whats happening around the arena. 

This is why my trainer has gotten Fly and I used to having other horses in the arena at the same time. I love group lessons, I find that you learn stuff from them that you wont in 1 on 1 lessons. More distractions, more things for you to take note of and be aware of etc. And even though I do not watch the other riders, I still see what they are doing through my peripheral vision.

This is why Im so looking forward to the clinic in August. If I can ride Fly in that clinic with the reigns right on the bit (Im confident I can), then I would say that would be an accomplishment i would be proud of. I was surprised yesterday when she said that she wants me to ride Fly for a bit with the reigns on the bit. She said that shes felt my reign control and my hands have gotten well enough to be able to trust me with direct contact with the bit.

My hands really started to get better the day my trainer made me do 20m circles with a short crop balanced across my wrists and told me to not have that fall. Immediately we both noticed a night and day difference in my hands. I still have a bad tendency to have my hands spread too far out to the sides from each other. My trainer will just keep telling me to keep them closer to each other. But obviously this is harder to do if your balance isnt there and because my balance is coming along, Im able to keep my hands closer side by side better.

The clinic is still 2 months away so I have plenty of time to get a lot better.

Right now, Im riding Fly 3 times a week (2 lessons and the 3rd on my own). I would love to ride her 4 times a week but until I get permission to ride Fly outside unsupervised (even if its in the outdoor arena), Im a bit limited because I cant ride unsupervised if the indoor arena isnt free. But even if i keep that 4th lesson 15mins and all I do is get on her and dismount, getting her to stand when I get on and not walk off until I tell her to, that will still be 100x more beneficial than just riding Fly 3 times a week.

I owe it all to my trainer. She has really taught me and communicated with me throughout each lesson on how Fly is responding to me ques, me direction in the saddle. Ive got to experience Fly with her being lazy and taking more on my part to keep her going, her having so much energy and her in heat. 

I flash back to one of the clinics that Ive attended before about soft eyes and I remember exactly what the clinician meant by soft eyes. Your eyes are essentially directing the horse to where you want to go. And because im into Cowboy challenge, mentoring how those riders ride when doing this stuff is what I need to follow. Their eyes are always forward and well ahead to where theyre going.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I'm not sure that they are deadly by themselves they'd probably have secondary complications that cause death... But they are painful


So sounds to me like a horse having ulcers is a serious enough of a case for them to stop being ridden altogether or at least a lot less?

This lesson mare is one of the most ridden (in terms of how often) lesson horses on the property.

I was going to ask the BO yesterday on how she is doing but I felt its none of my business. Maybe later I can ask but not right now. But the lesson mare has been taken out of my mares herd again. Im guessing having a lame horse in a new herd is probably not a good idea.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Right now, Im riding Fly 3 times a week (2 lessons and the 3rd on my own). I would love to ride her 4 times a week but until I get permission to ride Fly outside unsupervised (even if its in the outdoor arena), Im a bit limited because I cant ride unsupervised if the indoor arena isnt free. But even if i keep that 4th lesson 15mins and all I do is get on her and dismount, getting her to stand when I get on and not walk off until I tell her to, that will still be 100x more beneficial than just riding Fly 3 times a week.


I'm curious...what would the consequences be if you chose to break these "rules" and you rode YOUR horse without "permission?"

Don't get me wrong, I think it's important and great that at the stage you are at you are riding while supervised. I guess it's just the stubborn deviant in me that wouldn't like someone telling me when and what I can do with my own horse...


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Curious, how do you know the mare is just not herself? What are the symptoms outside of the lameness? Chiropractic adjustments and massages are not the cure for everything nor does every horse need them----Back on Track sheets can do wonders if the issue is muscular or arthritis for example.


My trainer has told me that her lashing out to try and bite the handler when being brushed is unlike her. This is why she has been seperated from her original herd for about 6 months now, and on her own in a small field next to another herd, cause the BO felt she needed some time on her own.

I know the trainer and BO have been spending months trying to figure out whats causing her to act this way because they cant be having a lesson horse trying to bite riders who come to the barn especially when many of them are little kids. And this is why Im very relieved that Im no longer riding her. I dont want to put her in more distress and discomfort.

But, seeing how shes been one of the most ridden lesson horses for years now and has never had any massage or chiro done to her, she would benefit from it. Depending on how serious her lameness is, (which I dont have the eye to determine this), I do believe that to a certain degree its purely soft tissue related, in which massage and red light would really help.


----------



## jenkat86

Did we ever determine what type of lameness is being shown? 

Is she limping, head bobbing, stiffness, etc...? Or is it all behavioral, like the biting?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I'm curious...what would the consequences be if you chose to break these "rules" and you rode YOUR horse without "permission?"
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think it's important and great that at the stage you are at you are riding while supervised. I guess it's just the stubborn deviant in me that wouldn't like someone telling me when and what I can do with my own horse...


I can ride her unsupervised anytime, but for now it just has to be in the indoor arena. I have only ridden Fly outside once. Obviously it will increase as I get better but my trainer wants me to get my control and form down better first in the indoor arena before spending more time outside.

ALso if I ride on my own, (for now), I can only ride Fly at a walk. But I have no doubt that Im just about to burst this bubble anytime now with the trainer giving me permission to trot her unsupervised.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I can ride her unsupervised anytime, but for now it just has to be in the indoor arena. I have only ridden Fly outside once. Obviously it will increase as I get better but my trainer wants me to get my control and form down better first in the indoor arena before spending more time outside.
> 
> ALso if I ride on my own, (for now), I can only ride Fly at a walk. But I have no doubt that Im just about to burst this bubble anytime now with the trainer giving me permission to trot her unsupervised.


Yeah...but what happens if you break the rules!?


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Did we ever determine what type of lameness is being shown?
> 
> Is she limping, head bobbing, stiffness, etc...? Or is it all behavioral, like the biting?


Not sure but the trainer first noticed the lameness after a ride from last week where the rider was IMO too heavy. Id say a 300-400lb lady on her and the lesson mare is maybe 1200-1300lbs. 

One girl who used to board here, (they left 2 weeks ago) had one mare who was 15hh but not much heavier than Fly (Id say 1100lbs) and the BOs farrier told her many times that she is too heavy for her. But she didnt listen and kept riding her. 

Well she was always lame and it was just recently that she got chiro and massage work done to her and she noticed night and day improvements in her mare. Her lameness was gone, but then she would go lame again after she would ride her.

I know the rule is to NOT ride a horse that has just had chiro work for 48 hours. One day at the barn, (after she was telling me about a chiro adjustment just being done to her), she was saddling her up and rode her just two days after she was adjusted and this kinda bothered me but I also knew it wasnt any of my business and I didnt say anything.

Speaking of chiros and massage, over the past week Ive been considering having my chiro out just to check up on Fly. What do you guys think? Remember, she went a good solid 5 months with not a single ride and a solid 10 months in me owning her with only having maybe 20 rides on her total (all coming from the trainer last Fall), then all of a sudden being ridden 3 times a week, so shes had more rides and work on her in the past 5 weeks than she has in the past 5 months prior. Its always a good idea to have her checked up and see how her formation is doing. What do you think? 

I know my chiro suggested this, when I had her out for the very first time last December. She said after she starts being ridden again consisstently, to bring her back out after a month or so into her training.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Yeah...but what happens if you break the rules!?


Like take Fly out to the outdoor arena and get on her on my own? Well, I dont want to risk getting in trouble. I could just ask my trainer today if she would be okay with this.

Am I confident in being able to do this? Totally yes! I know it sounds crazy seeing how Ive spent all of 10mins with Fly in the outdoor arena with me on her back. But I didnt feel nervous or have any doubt when I was on Flys back outside. I knew and expected her to act the same outside just as if we were inside and she did.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Like take Fly out to the outdoor arena and get on her on my own?
> Well, I dont want to risk getting in trouble.
> 
> Am I confident in being able to do this? Totally yes! I know it sounds crazy seeing how Ive spent all of 10mins with Fly in the outdoor arena with me on her back. But I didnt feel nervous or have any doubt when I was on Flys back outside. I knew and expected her to act the same outside just as if we were inside and she did.


Yeah, see...I would have a problem with that. Getting in trouble for doing what I wanted with my own horse. I'm not saying go do that, because I think you DO still need to be supervised. But it wouldn't go over well if someone told me I "can't" do something with my horse, or else.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Not sure but the trainer first noticed the lameness after a ride from last week where the rider was IMO too heavy. Id say a 300-400lb lady on her and the lesson mare is maybe 1200-1300lbs.


I'm not blasting you for this statement. But I would like to sort of educate you on this a bit. I remember you were really concerned awhile back about if you were too heavy for your mare. You got a lot of good information and feedback there. But one thing to remember...horses are strong animals. And a heavy BALANCED rider with body control is much easier for a horse to carry than a lighter rider with no balance or body control. 

Just something to think about. 

Oh...and "lady" and "weight" should really never be brought up :wink:


----------



## egrogan

jenkat86 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I think it's important and great that at the stage you are at you are riding while supervised. I guess it's just the stubborn deviant in me that wouldn't like someone telling me when and what I can do with my own horse...


 @*jenkat86*, I have the same personality and every time I read about "getting permission," it makes me bristle. I must have been such an annoying kid for my parents, I've always been this way :wink:


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Yeah, see...I would have a problem with that. Getting in trouble for doing what I wanted with my own horse. I'm not saying go do that, because I think you DO still need to be supervised. But it wouldn't go over well if someone told me I "can't" do something with my horse, or else.


I dont think the BO or trainer would have a problem with me riding Fly in the outdoor arena, but I should forsure check with them first. I havent brought this up with them, so they never told me that I cant do it with Fly.

You think I should ask my trainer today on whether she would be okay with me riding Fly at a walk on my own in the outdoor arena?


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> You think I should ask my trainer today on whether she would be okay with me riding Fly at a walk on my own in the outdoor arena?


If you feel comfortable riding her out there, then yes. Absolutely. You've ridden her out there before, right- but with the trainer?


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## jenkat86

egrogan said:


> @*jenkat86*, I have the same personality and every time I read about "getting permission," it makes me bristle. I must have been such an annoying kid for my parents, I've always been this way :wink:



Yeah...my parents AND husband remind me of how difficult I am daily :shrug:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I have the same "personality flaw" as Jenkat86 and Erogan. If you want me to do something, tell me I can't. 

In this case though, your trainer may be telling you these things for the purposes of liability to herself or the barn owner. 

I am not at all familiar with equine law in Canada, but here in Texas, you are liable if you know your student is not yet capable of handling what a green horse will typically throw at them and you match them with that horse anyway and an injury results. 

Fly is however your horse so that might or might not enter into the equation depending on the laws in your area. Just something to consider.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> If you feel comfortable riding her out there, then yes. Absolutely. You've ridden her out there before, right- but with the trainer?


Okay I will ask my trainer today. I think Im best asking her than not asking.

Yes I rode Fly in the outdoor arena before, as well as out and about around the barn, into random areas. But it was only once and the trainer was with me.


----------



## Hoofpic

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I have the same "personality flaw" as Jenkat86 and Erogan. If you want me to do something, tell me I can't.
> 
> In this case though, your trainer may be telling you these things for the purposes of liability to herself or the barn owner.
> 
> I am not at all familiar with equine law in Canada, but here in Texas, you are liable if you know your student is not yet capable of handling what a green horse will typically throw at them and you match them with that horse anyway and an injury results.
> 
> Fly is however your horse so that might or might not enter into the equation depending on the laws in your area. Just something to consider.


I dont know the law in Canada either, but theres no doubt that the BO and trainer are slowly bringing me along in terms of me riding on my own in case I was to get injured, they wouldnt be liable. Its all about safety no doubt...which I have nothing against. But I think the biggest factor is just that if something was to come up, that i know what to do the time it happens. 

For instance, I would be confident trotting my mare full arena on my own, but not (yet) doing circles at a trot on my own. Because I take a lot of guidance from my coach when I do them to make me better. I would say Im pretty close though to being confident enough in doing these on my own, very close.

Remember, before I was even riding my mare, I wasnt even thinking about me riding on my own. I was just focused on me riding her period. Then when I started riding her and my trainer said "who knows, maybe in a months time you will be riding her on your own". I said "thats so far down the road, Im not even thinking about it". Well I was pleasantly surprised when my trainer gave me the green light to ride her on my own unsupervised (though at a walk only, but still).

Im coming along, like my trainer always tells me, dont look at the big picture but just keep chomping away here and there and keep my riding building. What Ive acknowledged is the more consistent of a rider I can be for Fly, the better off she will be. And it all routes back to groundwork, the more consistent you are when doing groundwork with a horse, the better the horse will be from it.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Okay I will ask my trainer today. I think Im best asking her than not asking.


You must have never heard the term , "It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission."



Hoofpic said:


> but theres no doubt that the BO and trainer are slowly bringing me along in terms of me riding on my own in case I was to get injured, they wouldnt be liable.


They covered themselves on that one when they had you sign a boarding contract- them bringing you along slowly has nothing to do with a liability.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> You must have never heard the term , "It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission."
> 
> 
> 
> They covered themselves on that one when they had you sign a boarding contract- them bringing you along slowly has nothing to do with a liability.


So you dont think I should bother asking my trainer if i could ride my mare in the outdoor arena on my own?

True they covered me when I signed the boarding contract, but I dont blame them for bringing me into my own slowly. Its not that they dont trust me but that theyre just being cautious seeing how this is a green + green situation and they both obviously know that green + green usually means black and blue.

Remember, before I started riding Fly 5 weeks ago, I viewed something like, me riding Fly on my own like a year end goal. And me riding Fly directly on the bit a year end goal. Both have already happened. So that shows that even though my trainer is being cautious, she has shown faith in me as a rider.


----------



## jenkat86

You and I do not have the same personality. What I would do in this situation is not what you should do in this situation. While I value my trainers opinion, I don't do well being told what I can and cannot do. And I will not stay somewhere that will give me consequences if I chose to go against their advice, as long as it doesn't endanger other horses or their property. 

Do you value your trainers opinion and the relationship you have with her? 

Do you feel comfortable riding your mare outside unsupervised?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> You and I do not have the same personality. What I would do in this situation is not what you should do in this situation. While I value my trainers opinion, I don't do well being told what I can and cannot do. And I will not stay somewhere that will give me consequences if I chose to go against their advice, as long as it doesn't endanger other horses or their property.
> 
> Do you value your trainers opinion and the relationship you have with her?
> 
> Do you feel comfortable riding your mare outside unsupervised?


I dont think there would be consequences if I was to ride Fly in the outdoor arena on my own without at least checking with my trainer.

Yes I value my trainers and BOs opinion and the relationship we have.

Yes I would feel very comfortable riding my mare in the outdoor arena on my own. I would even feel comfortable riding her out and about roaming the barn. It would be no different than the first time I did it with my trainer there. I wasnt nervous at all and she totally fed off it.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I know the rule is to NOT ride a horse that has just had chiro work for 48 hours. One day at the barn, (after she was telling me about a chiro adjustment just being done to her), she was saddling her up and rode her just two days after she was adjusted and this kinda bothered me but I also knew it wasnt any of my business and I didnt say anything.


2 days is 48 hours.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> 2 days is 48 hours.


I know 

Today I took her for a long walk (there and back about 1hour) into the big field across the barn. We have been in there once but we walked a muc greater distance today. I think it was good for us. 

I wanted to see how she would act when i have her in an open and unknown field to her and she looking around, turning her field to look away. I would give her a light buml in the lead to get her attention back onto me. But it took a lot of bumps.


----------



## Hoofpic

I got the green light to ride Fly outside!!! IM SO EXCITED! Will do this tomorrow and wander around the barn and record myself.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

That's awesome, Hoofpic!


----------



## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> That's awesome, Hoofpic!


Thanks, Im very happy.

Im happy with the progress that Im making but I cant help but still have that desire for doing liberty work as well. 

Btw im the only one at the barn who is into liberty.

Dont get me wrong, I truly do believe that I can accomplish alot with my mare in the saddle and now that I got permission to ride her outside unsupervised, I do miss the liberty.

I think it would be good to even just ride my mare around the barn property at a walk, watch her ears, her focus and having her take in whats happening in the moment with me on her back. Compeletely different experience than if i was on the ground.


----------



## Hoofpic

*Ignore this quote from above.*



> "Don't get me wrong, I truly do believe that I can accomplish alot with my mare in the saddle and now that I got permission to ride her outside unsupervised, I do miss the liberty."


*It should say...*

Don't get me wrong, I truly do believe that I can accomplish alot with my mare in the saddle and now that I got permission to ride her outside unsupervised, I have more flexibility in terms of what I can do with her in the saddle. 

Because outside there are a lot more distractions, so it will take more on my part to keep her focus on me. I want to be able to ride her onto the main road, ride past the porta-potty, parked trailers, mini donkeys, with me on her back and have her trust me that everything is safe. Guide her with soft eyes. 

Now, my trainer wants me to work on a lot of this stuff on my own, shes given me homework. Ideally I would like to ride her 4 times a week (cause 3 IMO is great but I think 4 will be even better in terms of progression in the saddle with Fly). Do you think Fly can handle 4 times a week with me on her? EVen if its just 15mins on her, thats still better than nothing.

I know that we talked about having variety with horses (especially young ones) so they dont get bored or tune you out. Now, because I havent done groundwork with Fly, well since the outside trainer has been out (about what 3.5-4 weeks now?), and Ive put liberty work to the side for now. I still want to get into liberty work, but right now I have so much on my plate, that I havent been able to find time watching liberty videos on youtube etc.

The furthest Fly and I have gotten into liberty is join up and getting her to woah when I woah, turn when I turn, and just starting on back up when I back up with no halter on. 

Obviously over the past month, ALL the work Ive been doing with Fly has been in the saddle. I hope this isnt too much of the same for Fly. Yesterday, I was going to ride her but I said I wont because I had a lesson today, so I wanted to change things up so her and I went for a nice long walk across the barn into the hay field.

After todays lesson, my trainer said I can ride her next lesson with the reigns directly on the bit right from the start. I told her that (I know this will sound wierd), when I have the reigns directly on the bit, Im actually better with my hands and reigns. Im much softer and as a result, because I cant use my hands as much, Im forced to use my legs (which is how it should be). 

Im gentlier because I know I have to be. Because the very very very first time I rode in a saddle (Which would be Feb of 2015) at the barn that I was helping out at for lessons...they had me on a well schooled gelding and the people teaching me kept telling me that im too light on the reigns. I was so light on the reigns in terms of how much tension I would have in it when getting them to woah, halt etc...simply because i know how much lbs of pressure the bit puts on their mouth and that you can damage the nerves in their mouth (cause where the snaffle sits is an extremely delicate part of their mouth) I didnt want to hurt the horse.


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## tinyliny

reins. not 'reigns' it's one letter shorter.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> reins. not 'reigns' it's one letter shorter.


Okay thanks Lily.


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## Hoofpic

Im not too happy with how todays ride (on my own) went. It was really windy today, so i decided it wouldnt be the best idea to ride her outside today. I always remember the saying "always set yourself up for success."


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Im not too happy with how todays ride (on my own) went. It was really windy today, so i decided it wouldnt be the best idea to ride her outside today. I always remember the saying "always set yourself up for success."


I'm confused. If you didn't ride outside why are you unhappy with how the ride went?


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I'm confused. If you didn't ride outside why are you unhappy with how the ride went?



I was going to ride outside but it was really windy so I figured I wont do it today. Me riding Fly outside on my own on a super windy day wouldnt be the best idea.

So I just brought her into the arena and worked on moving her haunches and front end in the saddle. Which I think went well but the thing is, things got delayed because I couldnt get on her! I was surprised, seeing how all this time she has stood still really well for me when im mounting. But today, she kept swinging her HQ away from me as i was about to get on. Tried putting her sideways against the wall, she would then move forward. 

So I remembered what my trainer told me. She said if she is hard to get on, tie her and keep getting on and off her. Well I did this, (first took her bridle out, cause I know that you should never tie a horse with them bridled), and got on her twice and off twice. 

Then decided to try getting on her again so I brought her into the middle of the arena and (didnt happen right away) but I was able to get on her. After we were done the ride, I got off, then back on again (still she would swing her HQ around), so I did it again. Then I figured I would end things there because things were going on for too long. I wasnt really able to leave today on a good note aside from brushing her.

My goal has always been to ride Fly for no longer than 20-30mins max, but its so easy to lose track of time especially if shes something that you are trying to get what you want from it. 

I have a video, I will watch it and see what I think.


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## greentree

Sorry you did not get to ride outside....

I feel the need to address a few of the points from your post....

1. I would never mount a horse that was tied. If the decide to have a meltdown, you are SUNK....

2. To fix this moving while being mounted, you MUST forget about time. It may take 2 days. Say whoa, and get her to stand, and MEAN it. Not whoa honey, whoa whoa, ho , honey easy, whoa. Say WHOA, STAND, and MEAN it. 

3. Why do you only ride her for 20 minutes??


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## sarahfromsc

greentree said:


> Sorry you did not get to ride outside....
> 
> I feel the need to address a few of the points from your post....
> 
> 1. I would never mount a horse that was tied. If the decide to have a meltdown, you are SUNK....
> 
> 2. To fix this moving while being mounted, you MUST forget about time. It may take 2 days. Say whoa, and get her to stand, and MEAN it. Not whoa honey, whoa whoa, ho , honey easy, whoa. Say WHOA, STAND, and MEAN it.
> 
> 3. Why do you only ride her for 20 minutes??


I am with you about the tying while mounting, and why only ride 20 minutes.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

I agree with the others on the mounting while the horse is tied. I would never try it.

I'm curious about the short ride time as well. I try not to put a time limit/ maximum on my rides. I know that sometimes you to with a busy schedule outside of horses. But, if I can, I love losing track of time while riding. It's very relaxing to me.


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## NeryLibra

The joy in owning your mare is being able to address an issue for as long as necessary. If you want to tackle standing to mount as your session for that day, and it takes an hour to get a good note, you're not bound by the time constraint of a trainer. The thing about training is that if you approach a situation like you only have fifteen minutes, it tends to take all day. And vice versa. If you approach it like you have all day, it won't usually take as long. That's been my experience anyway.

Since you have your new found freedom, why be so strict on how long you spend in the saddle? Are you finishing in 20 minutes truly satisfied with what you have achieved, or are you ending the session just because it's been twenty minutes? If you haven't hit a good note, Fly could start to anticipate you leaving before you make any real progress as it turns into a waiting game for her.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

^
Exactly!!


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## Rainaisabelle

Please don't mount a tied horse it can be so dangerous !! 


Secondly if you can ride for however long you want just ride don't make it a huge thing take it slow and enjoy it


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Sorry you did not get to ride outside....
> 
> I feel the need to address a few of the points from your post....
> 
> 1. I would never mount a horse that was tied. If the decide to have a meltdown, you are SUNK....
> 
> 2. To fix this moving while being mounted, you MUST forget about time. It may take 2 days. Say whoa, and get her to stand, and MEAN it. Not whoa honey, whoa whoa, ho , honey easy, whoa. Say WHOA, STAND, and MEAN it.
> 
> 3. Why do you only ride her for 20 minutes??


1. So mounting any horse when they are tied is a huge safety risk? Would you say this was just bad advice given from my coach?

After I did it once, something didnt feel right. I've never ever seen anyone mount a horse when tied in the arena before.

2. Yes, forget about time, you are right. Im just always wanting to make sure that Im not coming across as nagging.

Becuase she had her bridle on, I felt a bit limited as to how hard I could be on her and what I could do. What would you have done to escalate it when she wouldnt stand for me?

3. Well I always have that mentality of when working with a horse, shorter lessons is better. THis goes for anything, riding and groundwork. A horse will learn better and build muscle better with say 4 shorter rides a week than 2 super long ones. But Ive never technically had a "20" min lesson let on Fly. They have all been long.


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## Rainaisabelle

I would have backed her up and then put her back in the spot she moved from and tried again. Just because she has a bridle on doesn't excuse her behaviour.


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## wholegrain1999

How old is your mare if you don't mind me asking?


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I would have backed her up and then put her back in the spot she moved from and tried again. Just because she has a bridle on doesn't excuse her behaviour.


I backed her up a couple times but wish I could have been more of a crazy man, but because I was so worried about her feeling it in her mouth of I go all crazy I felt limited. :neutral:


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I backed her up a couple times but wish I could have been more of a crazy man, but because I was so worried about her feeling it in her mouth of I go all crazy I felt limited. :neutral:


You don't need to be a "crazy man." You just need to do whatever you are doing (in this case, backing her up) with purpose. Be stern and assertive. Not crazy. Nobody likes crazy. Even horses.


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## Hoofpic

NeryLibra said:


> The joy in owning your mare is being able to address an issue for as long as necessary. If you want to tackle standing to mount as your session for that day, and it takes an hour to get a good note, you're not bound by the time constraint of a trainer. The thing about training is that if you approach a situation like you only have fifteen minutes, it tends to take all day. And vice versa. *If you approach it like you have all day, it won't usually take as long. *That's been my experience anyway.
> 
> Since you have your new found freedom, why be so strict on how long you spend in the saddle? Are you finishing in 20 minutes truly satisfied with what you have achieved, or are you ending the session just because it's been twenty minutes? If you haven't hit a good note, Fly could start to anticipate you leaving before you make any real progress as it turns into a waiting game for her.


Thanks, I will start doing that. 

I need to stop putting a time limit on when I work with my mare. Its just Ive always been told that shorter the better. But if she is not doing what I ask for, then I need to continue out. Just like last week when I was hard to catch her and took over an hour. Yes it dragged on forever, but I had to stick to it until I got what I wanted. 

Same applies for in the saddle or in the arena doing anything.

Yesterday, I left things off on a much better note compared to how it started. I got her to stand, I was able to get on her twice.


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## NeryLibra

Glad to hear it.  Training a horse is like teaching someone a new language. You can't really rush how someone learns, but you can be stern in how something is pronounced and practice as much as needed. It takes patience, yes, but it also takes a good chunk of time.


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## greentree

NO escalation when she won't stand. Escalation ONLY occurs during MOVING exercises. Put her back in the same spot, and repeat. Your voice in the command came get more forceful, but that is it.

And, you need to Quickly put her back in the spot, as opposed to slowly walking her back over there....


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## Hoofpic

I got a video of me bridling her yesterday. She was being a bit more bratty than previous times, but I am getting quicker getting that bit in the mouth. Its still on me though to get her to open up quicker.


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## greentree

Hold the crown of the bridle in your right hand. Put the hand in between her ears, so the bridle is hanging in perfect position. Take your left hand and hold the bit so it is spread across your hand. Pull the bridle up with your right hand, and stick your left thumb in the corner of her mouth. As she opens her mouth, slide your right hand up, and gracefully pull the crown piece over her ears.

You will find this MUCH easier, as tall as you are!!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hold the crown of the bridle in your right hand. Put the hand in between her ears, so the bridle is hanging in perfect position. Take your left hand and hold the bit so it is spread across your hand. Pull the bridle up with your right hand, and stick your left thumb in the corner of her mouth. As she opens her mouth, slide your right hand up, and gracefully pull the crown piece over her ears.
> 
> You will find this MUCH easier, as tall as you are!!


I normally do hold the crown of the bridle inbetween her ears but the thing is yesterday she had her head lower so i had to adjust. Unless did you mean hold it actually physically right between her ears? Then Id be worried about the straps all in her face. 

Some days are better than others. Yesterday was one of the quicker days as far as me getting the bit in, but everything else wasnt as good as previous. The good news is that there have been days where I have been able to get the bit and bridle on really quickly, but unfortunately I didnt tape those times. Of course the best times are when its not recorded eh? :neutral:

Yesterday she was definitely on edge about something and wasnt super mellow like she was on Sat when I rode her in my lesson.


----------



## Hoofpic

Green, are you wanting me to bridle like this? (Thanks to Jenkat for the video!)


----------



## egrogan

^^Yes, that's a good example. 

There were a few times she seemed to be trying to help you, but you had the bit jammed up against her lips or gums rather than guiding it in. If you are standing to the side, should be a little smoother. And if you rewatch the video, the throatlatch is all stuck on her face anyway, so don't worry so much about the straps right now (though obviously ideally they will be tucked out of the way and not poking her in the eyes), guiding the bit in smoothly will make it more comfortable for her.

Do you need that big bulky halter on while bridling? Seems like that's also getting in the way.


----------



## jenkat86

I actually think someone else posted that before because it was under my "watched" videos. :shrug:


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> ^^Yes, that's a good example.
> 
> There were a few times she seemed to be trying to help you, but you had the bit jammed up against her lips or gums rather than guiding it in. If you are standing to the side, should be a little smoother. And if you rewatch the video, the throatlatch is all stuck on her face anyway, so don't worry so much about the straps right now (though obviously ideally they will be tucked out of the way and not poking her in the eyes), guiding the bit in smoothly will make it more comfortable for her.
> 
> Do you need that big bulky halter on while bridling? Seems like that's also getting in the way.


Me having the bit jammed along her front teeth was my fault. I thought it was in but it wasnt. So I put my thumb in there again and this time I got it in. The thing is, when I put my thumb in the soft spot in her mouth, she doesnt open her mouth a lot and not often. So I have to be quick to slide it in when she does open. Shes definitely no lesson horse who opens wide open. I would love to have her just open up without even having to slide my thumb inside but I think thats wishful thinking. Again, shes no lesson horse who will do this.

I wish I could scrap the halter but my trainer wants me to keep it on her for now, even though I have just started riding her directly on the bit. I think as time goes on, she will scrap the halter when I ride her. I know next lesson (Wed), she said I can put the reins right on the bit right at the start of the lesson (first time ever) because she (I do as well) sees a noticable improvement in my hands when i have the reins right on the bit.


----------



## greentree

jenkat86 said:


> I actually think someone else posted that before because it was under my "watched" videos. :shrug:


You're kidding....we have said that before??. Lol.


----------



## jenkat86

greentree said:


> You're kidding....we have said that before??. Lol.


I'm not kidding. I'm about 90% sure it was in this thread...but I just don't feel like looking through it all, lol.


----------



## Hoofpic

Here is my opinion on me having experienced riding Fly with the reins right on the bit. First it feels 100x better because its much more accurate. I can feel her mouth, when it was looped through the halter, I could but it felt tighter.

I feel I am past the stage of me having the reins looped through the halter. Why? Because right away, I noticed me being much softer in my hands and upper body when the reins are right on the bit. 

Because I know I no longer have the luxury of having some leeway in terms of how much tension im allowed in the reigns. With the reins right on the bit, I have no leeway. How many lbs of pressure i have in those reigns from my hands and arms is EXACTLY how many lbs or pressure she feels in my mouth. My hands are much softer and less active and Im forced to use my legs more (which is how it should be). So personally, I think moving forward for me as a rider, I think Im best off only riding with the reins right on the bit. And hopefully I can scrape the halter for good. I will ask my trainer if I can do this for Wed.

Because lets be honest, has anyone here rode their horse with their halter on as well as the bridle?


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Because I know I no longer have the luxury of having some leeway in terms of how much tension im allowed in the reigns. With the reins right on the bit, my hands are much softer and less active and Im forced to use my legs more (which is how it should be). So personally, I think moving forward for me as a rider, I think Im best off only riding with the reins right on the bit.


Well...that is the natural progression of things...


----------



## Hoofpic

I know Im going to take some flack for this, but here is the beginning of my ride yesterday and getting on. 

I brought her into the arena and I always get her to stand so I can tighten her cinch (and she always does) but this time she wouldnt even do this.

Then when I finally got her, what Im working on is having her stand and not walk off until I tell her to. So I get on, and I keep her at a halt, reward, then tell her to walk on. At 4:08 I finally tell her to walk on (you cant really hear me in the video).

I will say that this was easily THE worst day I had with her in terms of just getting on. Prior to this, she has stood still for me and Ive been able to get on her within seconds.


----------



## jenkat86

Have you been taught to back up yet, while riding?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Have you been taught to back up yet, while riding?


You mean backing up from a walk?


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> You mean backing up from a walk?


Yeah, while you are riding her.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Yeah, while you are riding her.


No we have only done halts from a walk. When I would back her up, she would already be stationary.

Hey Jenkat, now that you see me in this video with my stirrups adjusted. How do you think they look? Are they too short?


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> No we have only done halts from a walk. When I would back her up, she would already be stationary.


I'm not talking about halts. Halts are where you stop your horse and have it stand. I'm talking about backing. Have you been taught to backup your horse while you are sitting on her back? Or have you only been taught to back her up while on the ground?



Hoofpic said:


> Hey Jenkat, now that you see me in this video with my stirrups adjusted. How do you think they look? Are they too short?


I think the leg position looks much better.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Have you been taught to backup your horse while you are sitting on her back? Or have you only been taught to back her up while on the ground?


Yes Ive been taught to back up Fly while on her back. I always ask for one step at a time, as soon as she gives it to me, I release pressure from the reins. Then if I need another step, I rinse and repeat.



> I think the leg position looks much better.


Thanks, I think so too. At first it felt wierd, but Im actually more comfortable like this because I can use my legs more.

I thought about it some more and I think the best way to approach her standing still once I get on her until I tell her to walk. Is having her do it really well once (even if its for 1 or 2 secs), cause if i ask for her to do it 3 or 4 times, it will just annoy her.

Obviously as soon as anyone gets on her, she wants to get going but she has to understand that she has to wait until shes told to do so.

So when I get on her, get her to stand well for a sec or two, then tell her to walk on and dont do that again until the next ride. Then she will pick up on it that it will become a routine thing for her.


----------



## natisha

You are never going to catch the cattle rustlers or bank robbers.

For the not standing this is what I would do after I sent you for coffee.
I'd get into mounting position with her head tilted towards me a little, as soon as she moved I would hold her head right there & spank her a$$ around fast, multiple times, with me still at her side. If she bugged out her eyes & had a fit, even better. 
After a few turns & would say, whoa-stand. Regroup & try again. Repeat as necessary.

If she walked off once I got on I'd do the same thing from the saddle, not even waiting to collect the right stirrup.

She needs to know that doing what she does means more work than just standing there.

You need to learn her mouth isn't made of blown glass. I still can't figure out how she managed to get you on the off side except you let her.


----------



## jenkat86

natisha said:


> For the not standing this is what I would do after I sent you for coffee.
> I'd get into mounting position with her head tilted towards me a little, as soon as she moved I would hold her head right there & spank her a$$ around fast, multiple times, with me still at her side. If she bugged out her eyes & had a fit, even better.
> After a few turns & would say, whoa-stand. Regroup & try again. Repeat as necessary.







I'm not usually a big CA fan...but I think this is a good video and it pretty much goes along with what @natisha said.



natisha said:


> If she walked off once I got on I'd do the same thing from the saddle, not even waiting to collect the right stirrup.
> 
> She needs to know that doing what she does means more work than just standing there.


Absolutely agree. @Hoofpic, by having her stand after she walks off, you are doing nothing more than rewarding her for her bad (and disrespectful) behavior.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> You are never going to catch the cattle rustlers or bank robbers.
> 
> For the not standing this is what I would do after I sent you for coffee.
> I'd get into mounting position with her head tilted towards me a little, as soon as she moved I would hold her head right there & spank her a$$ around fast, multiple times, with me still at her side. If she bugged out her eyes & had a fit, even better.
> After a few turns & would say, whoa-stand. Regroup & try again. Repeat as necessary.
> 
> If she walked off once I got on I'd do the same thing from the saddle, not even waiting to collect the right stirrup.
> 
> She needs to know that doing what she does means more work than just standing there.
> 
> You need to learn her mouth isn't made of blown glass. I still can't figure out how she managed to get you on the off side except you let her.


Thanks, Im going to try that, is that ok? Perhaps a short dressage whip would be best to use when spanking her?

Not to make it sound like Im making excuses but yesterday was different because up until yesterday she actually has been standing really well for me when mounting. Yesterday was essentially the first time I had difficulty - I was caught off guard. because I was able to get on her so effortlessly previous times, I took it for granted.

So much improvement in just the past month, that my trainer doesnt even hold her for me when getting on her, she stands off to the side. I had some really good lessons with her standing so well but unfortunately a couple of them I forgot to tape 

I take her into the arena, put the reins over her, tell her to stand so I can tighten up the cinch and she did it. Then I grab a hold of the reins and up I go and she stood. 10-15secs max.

She has shown more improvement in standing still when i mount than standing still once I get on. Though she has improved in that, but not as much.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Training horse not to walk off when mounting - Clinton Anderson - YouTube
> 
> I'm not usually a big CA fan...but I think this is a good video and it pretty much goes along with what @natisha said.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely agree. @Hoofpic, by having her stand after she walks off, you are doing nothing more than rewarding her for her bad (and disrespectful) behavior.


Im not very happy. I wasn't going to go to the barn today (Mondays are usually Flys day off) but I feel I need to go tonight to work on this with her again, especially seeing how everything from yesterday is still fresh in my mind. 

Thats a very good video, thanks. I have a good idea what to do now.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, Im going to try that, is that ok? Perhaps a short dressage whip would be best to use when spanking her?
> 
> Not to make it sound like Im making excuses but yesterday was different because up until yesterday she actually has been standing really well for me when mounting. Yesterday was essentially the first time I had difficulty - I was caught off guard. because I was able to get on her so effortlessly previous times, I took it for granted.
> 
> So much improvement in just the past month, that my trainer doesnt even hold her for me when getting on her, she stands off to the side. I had some really good lessons with her standing so well but unfortunately a couple of them I forgot to tape
> 
> I take her into the arena, put the reins over her, tell her to stand so I can tighten up the cinch and she did it. Then I grab a hold of the reins and up I go and she stood. 10-15secs max.
> 
> She has shown more improvement in standing still when i mount than standing still once I get on. Though she has improved in that, but not as much.


The flat of your hand should be enough.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic, try this....squeeze your own arm. Gradually increase the pressure. When it hurts, then pay attention to what your squeezing hand is feeling. I bet it can be pretty tight before it hurts, and you are a HUMAN, not a horse. Do the same thing with the bit. Put it over your hand and pull.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> The flat of your hand should be enough.


Ok, but flat of the hand hurts the palm.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, try this....squeeze your own arm. Gradually increase the pressure. When it hurts, then pay attention to what your squeezing hand is feeling. I bet it can be pretty tight before it hurts, and you are a HUMAN, not a horse. Do the same thing with the bit. Put it over your hand and pull.


I will try with the bit 

I just tried with my arm and hand and see what you mean.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Ok, but flat of the hand hurts the palm.


A swat is all you'd need, not a full on slap.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> A swat is all you'd need, not a full on slap.


Ok. And just be assertive, dont need to be a crazy man.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Not to make it sound like Im making excuses but yesterday was different because up until yesterday she actually has been standing really well for me when mounting. Yesterday was essentially the first time I had difficulty - I was caught off guard. because I was able to get on her so effortlessly previous times, I took it for granted.


This is called "your horse is testing you" and is a normal horse thing, but you should pay attention to the circumstances of why it happens.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> This is called "your horse is testing you" and is a normal horse thing, but you should pay attention to the circumstances of why it happens.


Well she is testing me because that's just what horses do to their owners, when they want to make sure they are a leader.


----------



## greentree

Mostly when they are confused about the leadership. They KNOW if you are the leader; there is no need to test.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Mostly when they are confused about the leadership. They KNOW if you are the leader; there is no need to test.


Im not denying that what you are saying is true, but the previous owner always told me that Fly has always been a mare to always test and need reminders. Unless she didnt see the previous owner as a leader.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

greentree said:


> Mostly when they are confused about the leadership. They KNOW if you are the leader; there is no need to test.


Or because they are beings with a mind who at times don't want to work. Leader or not.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Well she is testing me because that's just what horses do to their owners, when they want to make sure they are a leader.


Honestly Hoofpic, when I first saw the bridling video I laughed because I thought it was a spoof & a pretty good one at that. It wasn't until a few posts later that I realized you weren't spoofing us.

Had I not read the posts before the mounting video I would have thought that was a spoof too.

Fly is not testing you on purpose. She is unclear of what you want because you are unclear, jerky & unsure. Your 'whoa' is not backed up by any consequence.

I suggest you take your bridle home, sit sideways on a high backed chair, put your forearm on the top of the chair back (the top of Fly's head between her ears) & bridle that chair back until hand placement & arm movements become automatic. Learn to balance the mouthpiece on you fingers leaving you thumb free to open her mouth. Picture that chair as Fly's head. Do it until you could do it in your sleep with finesse. I promise you the next time you bridle Fly you'll see a difference.

If you are spoofing us, well done.:wink:


----------



## jenkat86

natisha said:


> She is unclear of what you want because you are unclear, jerky & unsure. Your 'whoa' is not backed up by any consequence.





natisha said:


> She is unclear of what you want because you are unclear, jerky & unsure. Your 'whoa' is not backed up by any consequence.





natisha said:


> She is unclear of what you want because you are unclear, jerky & unsure. Your 'whoa' is not backed up by any consequence.





natisha said:


> She is unclear of what you want because you are unclear, jerky & unsure. Your 'COMMAND' is not backed up by any consequence.


No...that isn't a mistake. I didn't hit copy and paste too many times. This needs to sink in. This is the root of EVERY issue you have ever had with her, Hoofpic. And I do believe the root of that is simply the fact that you don't yet know what an appropriate consequence is or how it is to be applied. 

"Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement."


----------



## natisha

jenkat86 said:


> No...that isn't a mistake. I didn't hit copy and paste too many times. This needs to sink in. This is the root of EVERY issue you have ever had with her, Hoofpic.


Oh, good thing because I thought I was getting a migraine, seeing duplicates.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Honestly Hoofpic, when I first saw the bridling video I laughed because I thought it was a spoof & a pretty good one at that. It wasn't until a few posts later that I realized you weren't spoofing us.
> 
> Had I not read the posts before the mounting video I would have thought that was a spoof too.
> 
> Fly is not testing you on purpose. She is unclear of what you want because you are unclear, jerky & unsure. Your 'whoa' is not backed up by any consequence.
> 
> I suggest you take your bridle home, sit sideways on a high backed chair, put your forearm on the top of the chair back (the top of Fly's head between her ears) & bridle that chair back until hand placement & arm movements become automatic. Learn to balance the mouthpiece on you fingers leaving you thumb free to open her mouth. Picture that chair as Fly's head. Do it until you could do it in your sleep with finesse. I promise you the next time you bridle Fly you'll see a difference.
> 
> If you are spoofing us, well done.:wink:


Thanks.

So once i start applying a consequence each time she disobeys on what i want, that will make it much more clear to her on what I want?

Im going to do this again on Wednesday but i will have her untied when bridling (thank you from Jenkat), so I can inmediately back her up if needed.

I know, im sure the video gave you a good laugh.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So once i start *applying a consequence each time she disobeys on what i want*, that will make it much more clear to her on what I want?
> 
> I know, im sure the video gave you a good laugh.


A suitable correction.

The more dangerous the evasion, the bigger the consequence.

The more unsure the evasion, the more YOU need to make yourself clearer. That does NOT mean getting rough.


Bridling should not be a complicated endeavor. You present the bit, you slide your thumb into her mouth to cue open, and you guide it in. Loop her ears through the crown piece and wala. DONE.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So once i start applying a consequence each time she disobeys on what i want, that will make it much more clear to her on what I want?
> 
> Im going to do this again on Wednesday but i will have her untied when bridling (thank you from Jenkat), so I can inmediately back her up if needed.
> 
> I know, im sure the video gave you a good laugh.


Read my post again. I wasn't laughing at you. I would never laugh at someone trying.

No, you can't give a consequence until your signals are very clear otherwise she will have no idea what you want or what she did wrong. Just because you know what you want doesn't mean she does.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> No...that isn't a mistake. I didn't hit copy and paste too many times. This needs to sink in. This is the root of EVERY issue you have ever had with her, Hoofpic. And I do believe the root of that is simply the fact that you don't yet know what an appropriate consequence is or how it is to be applied.
> 
> "Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement."


Im going to repeat and memorize and remember that quote for Natisha. It incredibly valuable.

And i agree with the experience quote. Heard it as well in one of the clinics i went to.


----------



## greentree

natisha said:


> Read my post again. I wasn't laughing at you. I would never laugh at someone trying.
> 
> No, you can't give a consequence until your signals are very clear otherwise she will have no idea what you want or what she did wrong. Just because you know what you want doesn't mean she does.


And YOU have got to figure out what YOU are trying to ask. Spend some time thinking about that. Each little step, as in using the chair as a prop, and once you figure out exactly how each step of bridling goes,, move your thoughts to how to get on. Practice on that chair. Picture the horse standing still, practice saying WHOA and STAND with enough force to sound like leader.....picture what you will do when she evades, put her back, do it again. 

Have you ever taken lessons in anything(piano, dance)? I recommend taking some dance lessons, so that you can better understand how the teaching method works.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> A suitable correction.
> 
> *The more dangerous the evasion, the bigger the consequence.
> 
> The more unsure the evasion, the more YOU need to make yourself clearer. That does NOT mean getting rough.
> *
> 
> Bridling should not be a complicated endeavor. You present the bit, you slide your thumb into her mouth to cue open, and you guide it in. Loop her ears through the crown piece and wala. DONE.


Yes

I know bridling should be easy and quick. But Im getting there. Remember before I wasnt even able to bridle her because she would pull her head back or try to run me over (This was last Fall).... so progress is made, but now I know what to do to make things effortless from here.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Read my post again. I wasn't laughing at you. I would never laugh at someone trying.
> 
> No, you can't give a consequence until your signals are very clear otherwise she will have no idea what you want or what she did wrong. Just because you know what you want doesn't mean she does.


Sorry my fault, I wasn't implying that you were laughing at me.

But for instance, when I was wanting her to stand so that I could get on her, I felt that I was making it very clear on what I wanted was it not? She knew the drill and knew exactly what I wanted and was trying to do.

But you are right. Move her feet if she doesnt want to stand. She has the easy part, and thats to stand. If she doesnt, then make her work.

Like Peter Campbell kept repeating in his clinic from a month ago, "a horses halter is connected to their feet, not their head".


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Could we try something?
Post a scenario and we can give you corrections that we (your subscribers) either use, would use or have used on those particular instances.

That way you can kind of get more of an idea on suitable corrections vs. rough housing


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> And YOU have got to figure out what YOU are trying to ask. Spend some time thinking about that. Each little step, as in using the chair as a prop, and once you figure out exactly how each step of bridling goes,, move your thoughts to how to get on. Practice on that chair. Picture the horse standing still, practice saying WHOA and STAND with enough force to sound like leader.....picture what you will do when she evades, put her back, do it again.
> 
> Have you ever taken lessons in anything(piano, dance)? I recommend taking some dance lessons, so that you can better understand how the teaching method works.


Ok thanks, I will do that some more. I did practice it a bit last night before getting to the barn and will do more tonight since I wont be seeing her tonight.

I have never taken dance lessons before or played any instruments. I dont have any interest in dancing, but am familiar with how it is generally taught.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Could we try something?
> Post a scenario and we can give you corrections that we (your subscribers) either use, would use or have used on those particular instances.
> 
> That way you can kind of get more of an idea on suitable corrections vs. rough housing


Sure. How about leading her and she looks away from me? I give a bump in the lead and it gets her focus back on me for a second, but then her head will wander back out. When I lead her, I want her head straight.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Leading her and she looks away from me?


Be prepared for lots of mixed methods from each poster. The goal is to find what works best for your horse.

A few corrections I have used 



Changing direction and/or asking them to yield a part of their body. Sometimes their front end so they do a turn on their haunches (TOTH)
Stopping each time and quickly backing up. Backing up has been worked on previously to this so they are readily able to back up quick (Sky responds well to this method)
I have done other things that didn't work out so well, like increasing speed.... don't try that unless you are prepared to be nearly run over. Or yanking/jerking/tugging the leadrope....yelling... all things that didn't go over well.


My goal is to get my horse paying attention to where I am taking him, not him zoning out and getting distracted by other things.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Sure. How about leading her and she looks away from me? I give a bump in the lead and it gets her focus back on me for a second, but then her head will wander back out. When I lead her, I want her head straight.


Bump, bump, bump until she decides it's fruitless. Or a real jerk if needed.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Sure. How about leading her and she looks away from me? I give a bump in the lead and it gets her focus back on me for a second, but then her head will wander back out. When I lead her, I want her head straight.


This might fall into the nagging category, right now. Just walk, and as long as she is coming along, don't worry about it. Later, you may figure it out. Right now, just walk.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Sorry my fault, I wasn't implying that you were laughing at me.
> 
> But for instance, when I was wanting her to stand so that I could get on her, I felt that I was making it very clear on what I wanted was it not? She knew the drill and knew exactly what I wanted and was trying to do.
> 
> But you are right. Move her feet if she doesnt want to stand. She has the easy part, and thats to stand. If she doesnt, then make her work.
> 
> Like Peter Campbell kept repeating in his clinic from a month ago, "a horses halter is connected to their feet, not their head".


Mounting, you were clear in knowing what you wanted but you had nothing to block her stepping away or tell her to stand. Being clear would have been contact with the reins. You didn't even have a hold on the right rein when you got on.

Quick question. How do you back her from the saddle? Break it down in steps, please.


----------



## natisha

greentree said:


> This might fall into the nagging category, right now. Just walk, and as long as she is coming along, don't worry about it. Later, you may figure it out. Right now, just walk.


Probably the best advice ever.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Be prepared for lots of mixed methods from each poster. The goal is to find what works best for your horse.
> 
> A few corrections I have used
> 
> 
> 
> Changing direction and/or asking them to yield a part of their body. Sometimes their front end so they do a turn on their haunches (TOTH)
> Stopping each time and quickly backing up. Backing up has been worked on previously to this so they are readily able to back up quick (Sky responds well to this method)
> I have done other things that didn't work out so well, like increasing speed.... don't try that unless you are prepared to be nearly run over. Or yanking/jerking/tugging the leadrope....yelling... all things that didn't go over well.
> 
> 
> My goal is to get my horse paying attention to where I am taking him, not him zoning out and getting distracted by other things.


I have tried #1 (as in the Warwick Schiller video) and it didnt work. I havent tried #2 though.

I have on a few occasions just all of a sudden stop, and surprisingly she stopped when I stopped, not even a step or second later. So that shows her focus was on me.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Bump, bump, bump until she decides it's fruitless. Or a real jerk if needed.


Wouldnt that be nagging? THough.

I usually give a light bump and if she doesnt listen, I give a light jerk.



greentree said:


> This might fall into the nagging category, right now. Just walk, and as long as she is coming along, don't worry about it. Later, you may figure it out. Right now, just walk.


Oh ok. 

I remember Gunkid on here mentioning it on here one day and ever since Ive really taken note of making sure she pays attention to me when im with her and watching where her focus is. Like last Friday night when I walked her in the big hay field across the street, (first time for us, at that distance), I was taking note on where her attention was and what she was focused on. Lots and lots of looking away.

WIth that being said, she is very good in going right when I go. So we can be standing and I start walking, she comes along right away. Which Peter Campbell said in his clinic, that as soon as you start walking, your horse needs to get going right that second. Not a second later, not two seconds, but right away.

The only times where she will sometimes not go right away is if shes in the herd hanging out and napping with her mates and she will give me a big sigh/exhale. My trainer and I were talking about this exact same thing this past weekend and how Fly is very expressive as she is always constantly letting out big exhales and sighs. Take her out of the field, big sigh, saddle her up, big exhale, put her reins on and into the arena, big sigh.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Wouldnt that be nagging? THough.
> 
> I usually give a light bump and if she doesnt listen, I give a light jerk.


It's not nagging if you do it as soon as she starts to look away then release when she comes back to you. Nagging is doing the same thing over & over even though there are no results.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Mounting, you were clear in knowing what you wanted but you had nothing to block her stepping away or tell her to stand. Being clear would have been contact with the reins. You didn't even have a hold on the right rein when you got on.
> 
> Quick question. How do you back her from the saddle? Break it down in steps, please.


I did try putting her up along the arena wall but she would go forward. What do you mean "contact with the reins?" 

I do hold onto tge reins when getting on, its just when I did finally get on, they slipped from my hands.

When i back her up in the saddle.

1) light back pressure on the reins and tell her to woah. If we are trotting, I first sit with my back straight and then tell her woah.

2) when she woahs and is standing, I give light back pressure on the reins and say Back. As soon as she is almost done taking a step, I will let go of the reins (taking it that all i want is one step.). If i want more I rinse and repeat.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I did try putting her up along the arena wall but she would go forward. What do you mean "contact with the reins?"
> 
> I do hold onto tge reins when getting on, its just when I did finally get on, they slipped from my hands.
> 
> When i back her up in the saddle.
> 
> 1) light back pressure on the reins and tell her to woah. If we are trotting, I first sit with my back straight and then tell her woah.
> 
> 2) when she woahs and is standing, I give light back pressure on the reins and say Back. As soon as she is almost done taking a step, I will let go of the reins (taking it that all i want is one step.). If i want more I rinse and repeat.


There you go! #1 answered your own question as to what is contact with the reins. 
When you back her you use the reins to stop forward movement (the back can be refined but we'll save that for another day). That same contact should stop movement while mounting too. Gather your reins, hold contact & get on. That will tell her what you want.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> There you go! #1 answered your own question as to what is contact with the reins.
> When you back her you use the reins to stop forward movement (the back can be refined but we'll save that for another day). That same contact should stop movement while mounting too. Gather your reins, hold contact & get on. That will tell her what you want.


Thanks, that makes sense. ANd if she refuses to woah the first time I put back pressure on the reins, then I can say woah again and put even more pressure on the reins the 2nd time right?


----------



## greentree

Say whoa first, louder, THEN pull the reins....give her a second to respond to your voice. That is how you teach them a voice command.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

One of the most important things is to give her time to make the right choice or make a mistake so ask give her a second to make the right choice if she makes a mistake ask again louder. 
But always give her a chance to make the decision


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Say whoa first, louder, THEN pull the reins....give her a second to respond to your voice. That is how you teach them a voice command.


Oh I get it now thanks . She will learn that if she doesnt respond to my voice command, then she gets pressure on the bit. If she does respond, then no pressure.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> One of the most important things is to give her time to make the right choice or make a mistake so ask give her a second to make the right choice if she makes a mistake ask again louder.
> But always give her a chance to make the decision


Thanks. Yes I always make sure I give her time to make the right choice. So when I say WOAH, I see how she is going to respond to my que.


----------



## Hoofpic

Have a question for you guys.

Do you think a clinic learning how to long lining a horse would be worth it?

Im obviously wanting to attend and looking for more clinics. I miss my clinics


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Clinics are what you make of them.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Clinics are what you make of them.


True. Well there are some clinics coming up that I think would appeal to me (trail riding, back country, advanced first aid, etc) but theyre expensive. And since I am having good progress and success so far with my trainer, I probably should just stick to her.

Today we rode outside again in the outdoor arena but this time I trotted Fly. Have to say it was a very good experience for me (obviously my first trotting any horse outside) and a lot harder than inside obviously due to the distractions, different level terrain etc (we have grass in our outside arena, its not your typical outdoor sand arena like I had at the old barn).

What about advanced first aid? Remember the basic first aid course that I took a few months ago? Well the same lady is running another but this one is advanced. Should every horse owner know this?


----------



## NeryLibra

Advanced first aid, if taught well and by a competent person, will carry to other aspects in life and could be well worth your money.


----------



## greentree

I think you have enough going on in your head without clinics....wait until next year. Then you will at least have a foundation on which to build, and it will not be as confusing. 
Advanced first aid may be helpful....


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Have a question for you guys.
> 
> Do you think a clinic learning how to long lining a horse would be worth it?
> 
> Im obviously wanting to attend and looking for more clinics. I miss my clinics



clinics are fun. you meet nice people, learn new things. they are never a waste of time or money, unless you are in short supply of either. but, if you are doing it to avoid actually riding, that's a different story.


----------



## Hoofpic

NeryLibra said:


> Advanced first aid, if taught well and by a competent person, will carry to other aspects in life and could be well worth your money.


Oh really....anyone have an idea on what they think would entail?

From what Im guessing, its dealing with injuries out in the wild, trails, forests etc.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> clinics are fun. you meet nice people, learn new things. they are never a waste of time or money, unless you are in short supply of either. but, if you are doing it to avoid actually riding, that's a different story.


No, Im interested in clinics because it is another source of information to learn from. 

Its very interesting watching different clinicians and how they live in the horse world, their backgrounds etc.


----------



## tinyliny

well, some information is really meaningless until you know why it matters. you have to have known the opposite before you can understand what the experienced person is really talking about

I often think back to my early lessons with my trainer, and how she kept saying, over and over again, to be aware of how the horse was feeling about something, or where their thought was. but, it was not for years that I started to really understand what she was truly saying. knowing that, (that I did not understand her until I had gone the opposite direction for some time,) makes me wonder how many more mistakes I have to make before I 'get' what I hear. h m m . . . . 

no loss to go to clinics and such. just that you probably wil not be able to truly take in all that much until you've had a few more years of mistake making to set the stage. get out there and start making your mistakes! hurry~


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> well, some information is really meaningless until you know why it matters. you have to have known the opposite before you can understand what the experienced person is really talking about
> 
> I often think back to my early lessons with my trainer, and how she kept saying, over and over again, to be aware of how the horse was feeling about something, or where their thought was. but, it was not for years that I started to really understand what she was truly saying. knowing that, (that I did not understand her until I had gone the opposite direction for some time,) makes me wonder how many more mistakes I have to make before I 'get' what I hear. h m m . . . .
> 
> no loss to go to clinics and such. just that you probably wil not be able to truly take in all that much until you've had a few more years of mistake making to set the stage. get out there and start making your mistakes! hurry~


Good point. Mistakes are unavoidable, its best to get those over with ASAP. Not saying you will reach a point where you will never make anymore mistakes, but as you gain knowledge and experience, those mistakes will drastically decrease. 

I will say though, its been about a month and a half now since I stopped having my outside trainer out and I dont think Im doing too bad at all! Im saving $400 a month thats forsure and put towards other stuff. Riding my mare, instead of doing all that groundwork, was definitely THE WAY TO GO. Thank you to all. I didnt see it right away and it was tough to convince me to discontinue services with my outside trainer, but it paid off and as time went on, I saw how all of you were right.

PS - My mare stood perfect for me today when I got on her for my lesson. I got on within seconds. Perhaps, it was because my trainer was right there.


----------



## Hoofpic

Im very intrigued. Might have to try this. Particularly 3mins and on.






You know those flexy spongey tubes that you can attach onto jumping poles (horizontally?) and you have your horse go through them? Ive seen a couple clinicians use them. I want to get a set but not sure what theyre even called.


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## NeryLibra

There's a good chance advanced first aid could be about using what you already know out on the trail, but there's also a chance it could go further into certain subjects, like deep cuts, identifying broken bones, how to immobilize, etc. It all depends on what the instructor knows, what they're willing to teach and what they deem necessary for people to know. If it's the same person teaching, they might just use thetime to do the latter option, where they dive deeper into first aid and then teach you to apply it out on the trail.


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## Hoofpic

Great video from Warwick.


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## Hoofpic

NeryLibra said:


> There's a good chance advanced first aid could be about using what you already know out on the trail, but there's also a chance it could go further into certain subjects, like deep cuts, identifying broken bones, how to immobilize, etc. It all depends on what the instructor knows, what they're willing to teach and what they deem necessary for people to know. If it's the same person teaching, they might just use thetime to do the latter option, where they dive deeper into first aid and then teach you to apply it out on the trail.


I agree with you.

Here is what ive found so far on it.



> Join us for a one day highly advanced equine emergency first aid course and learn what to do in the most extreme situations! Covering everything from lacerations to poison, burns to bites, fractures to sucking chest wounds, this course prepares the student to handle the most serious injuries while waiting for the vet.


Clinic is $200 for 1 full day. The first one was only $150.


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## Skyseternalangel

If you try to learn too many things at once, not only will you be confused but your mare will be also.

Perfect the basics on and off saddle. Then you can go from there. Otherwise you will have a lot of holes in her training if you hop around without having her solid


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> If you try to learn too many things at once, not only will you be confused but your mare will be also.
> 
> Perfect the basics on and off saddle. Then you can go from there. Otherwise you will have a lot of holes in her training if you hop around without having her solid


Okay thanks. So don't bother with liberty for now is what you are saying.


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Okay thanks. So don't bother with liberty for now is what you are saying.



No more like get better at her leading, listening, yielding by working little by little on it ... and then incorporate liberty onto that. I see it as a stepping stone for advancing the communication between horse and rider


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Im very intrigued. Might have to try this. Particularly 3mins and on.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH-yIMcZN-k
> 
> You know those flexy spongey tubes that you can attach onto jumping poles (horizontally?) and you have your horse go through them? Ive seen a couple clinicians use them. I want to get a set but not sure what theyre even called.


Pool noodles?


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> No more like get better at her leading, listening, yielding by working little by little on it ... and then incorporate liberty onto that. I see it as a stepping stone for advancing the communication between horse and rider


Ok thanks, Ill do that .

As much as my outside trainer says that everything starts from the ground, well...it does, but it also applies from when you start riding as well.

My trainer has been getting me to really keep Fly's head bent a bit towards the inside when riding her. Keep her away from being distracted.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Pool noodles?


I think you're right, thanks! I will check it out today.

Yip this is what I want.


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## Hoofpic

Am I a loser or odd because horses is THE main thing that im into in my life right now and a couple other things that im into has really become an afterthought in my life? Okay I wouldnt say an after thought but its on the backburner ever since I got into horses.


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## FaolchuThePainted

I don't think so being with horses is the greatest thing ever and if I could I'd spend every second of every day around them a
Few weeks ago I spent like three hours probably washing and combing crap out of a horses tail and it was the best day I had had all week


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## Hoofpic

FaolchuThePainted said:


> I don't think so being with horses is the greatest thing ever and if I could I'd spend every second of every day around them a
> Few weeks ago I spent like three hours probably washing and combing crap out of a horses tail and it was the best day I had had all week


Being around horses is most definitely the greatest thing ever. Theres not a single thing that I would rather do than be at the barn. I love to travel but I gave up and sacrificed travelling for having the extra funds for my mare.

My outside trainer just texted me. She wants to know how Fly is doing and if everything is still going well.


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## egrogan

Just tell her everything's going great!


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Just tell her everything's going great!


I just replied andsaid the same thing. 

"Fly is doing great and coming along nicely."


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## Hoofpic

I got my pool noodles (4), will try it out and see how it goes. I dont quite remember how many ledges are on those jumping stands so I just got two for each side. I got the thinner ones since they seemed to be more bendy and $2 vs $5 each. Im curious to see how Fly reacts when I walk her through them. It will be no different than when I walk her over the bridge.

i know these noodles though are pretty alarming to horses because when you hang them from one end, they will dangle and move at the other. Plus theyre long and especially bright coloured. Either way, it will be a good experience for us.


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## Hoofpic

You guys have seen the home that my mare is in right now. Wanted to show you all her previous home that she was at last mid June 2015 to mid Sept 2015.

Was a lot of hard work feeding these horses every night but I loved doing it.


















Indoor arena was huge. THis is only half of it. The other side of the barn were show horses who were in competitions often, so there was a good amount of HJ crowd at the barn. People often would leave jumps up and the next person using the arena would have to take it down.










She hated this roundpen (60ft). Walls too high, cant see over, poor light. Horses dont like it when they cant see over things. The first time I had her in here, she thought I was going to leave her in there alone.

Outdoor arena was massive. I miss it (wish we had one this big and perfectly harrolded with sand)



















Fields were ridiculously huge at 20 acres for most of them. THis is one of the smaller ones. Theyre fields had 4-6 horse shelters, which I wish my barn had. My mares field only has a 2 horse shelter. They can fit 3 of the 4 horses in there with one butt sticking out lol.










AS you can see, the fields were massive. Would often take boarders a good 15mins just to catch their horse in the very back.


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## Hoofpic

Am i abnormal for always wanting and liking horses to be fed in their shelters when it rains and snows? 

i know when I used to always feed at the old barn, I always did this. I figure, what horse wants to stand out in the rain (especially if its pouring) and getting drenched while eating?

i know at the old barn, there were certain horses that would not eat their dinner if its raining. You would have to put it in their shelters lol. And I always did this because I dont want any horse to have to wait for the rain to pass before eating. 

I dont have anything against horses getting fed in the rain but I feel better in the shelters.


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## Hoofpic

I will admit, Im not very good in knowing how tight to make the cinch when saddling up. Today (the other day as well) Fly turned her head back towards me as I retightened it. It was a head turn back, telling me to BUZZ OFF. She did NOT like it. It was not too tight but Fly has become very picky about having the cinch tightened.

My trainer hasnt really given me any circumstances on how tight cinches are tightened. All this time, she has just gone by feel by putting her finger under or around it and she will tell if if its good or to make it tighter. Shes always told me to not bother fully tightening it when you first tack up because horses will let out air as they are standing, so you will need to retighten anyways right before you get on. So ive gotten into this habit awhile ago.

Anyone have any tips on knowing exactly how tight to make cinches? I dont want Fly to dread each time I tighten up the cinch on her. 

Rode her this afternoon outside by myself. Trainer was still at the barn but she was doing a lesson. She saw me outside with Fly and said we looked relaxed. Was only able to ride her for 15mins cause it started raining and turned into a down pour. Once the rain started coming down and thunder and lightning was coming, I said best to get off now. But still 15mins is better than 0mins right?

This isnt the entire ride - but most of it. I spent a good 5 or 6 mins working on 15m circles in both directions, while keeping her head to the inside a bit and figured its not exactly the most exciting thing to watch so I cut it out.

Also, note that with my camera, it looks like Im looking down at her but Im actually not. Im going to have to adjust my cam so its tilted a bit higher. It was sitting a tad bit too low today.

I was happy that I got to walk her around the porta potty, past the parked trailer and around the area where there is a lot of ojbects and materials (you will see her snort as she goes by) and in the area at the barn where there is a lot of trees (shes never liked this area because shes always been weary about something jumping out at her from the trees). This was my goal when I got to the barn today.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I'm not really sure if girths and cinches are the same but for me you should be able to get 3 fingers under it. You'll be able to feel if its to tight because there won't be an inch of slack. 

And yes some horses bloat so they push their stomachs out when tacking up, I usually put my saddle on tighten the girth up and do the rest then before mounting I tighten it all the way up.


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## Rainaisabelle

I could be completely wrong on this but when she freaks out don't make her stop ask her to keep going past the thing that's freaking her out as she's getting more anxious when you're asking her to stop she needs to keep going.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I could be completely wrong on this but when she freaks out don't make her stop ask her to keep going past the thing that's freaking her out as she's getting more anxious when you're asking her to stop she needs to keep going.


What do you think she freaked out at?


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I'm not really sure if girths and cinches are the same but for me you should be able to get 3 fingers under it. You'll be able to feel if its to tight because there won't be an inch of slack.


3 fingers under it, in the dead centre of her tummy? (well a bit infront of her tummy, just not sure what this area is called).

I would think 3 fingers would be way too loose for cinches but I could be wrong. The way Ive been tightening it when riding her, you cant put a single finger in the dead centre of the cinch where it hits her middle tummy. 

I can get 1 finger on the outside of the centre but thats it.



> And yes some horses bloat so they push their stomachs out when tacking up, I usually put my saddle on tighten the girth up and do the rest then before mounting I tighten it all the way up.


Good idea. I tack up, and I do the cinch up but i dont bother doing it up real tight since I will have to retighten anyways before getting on.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I could be completely wrong on this but when she freaks out don't make her stop ask her to keep going past the thing that's freaking her out as she's getting more anxious when you're asking her to stop she needs to keep going.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think she freaked out at?
Click to expand...

Ignore this comment my phone made it look like she was freaking out because I couldn't see the whole picture when I looked on my laptop I could see what you were doing. 

I got this photo off the internet but see the person for thing up I check just below that sort of where the belly begins to curve. I've never had an issue for thing my TB but maybe that's not the politically correct way to do it.


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## greentree

You and Fly did great!! Wonderful video. Good work. I love the way she is walking along looking around, and happy. 

Of course there are a few things I would change....
1. Put your hands together a little bit. Riding with them 3 feet apart is a punishment. 
2. Be sure you are holding the reins with your full hand. They look sort of draped over your hand, and if a herd do wild bugs attacked her head, she would flip them right out of your hands. You are NOT being "softer" by not holding the reins.
3. She needs a bridle path. There is SO much hair under the bridle that the entire thing could come off in a violent shake. I have seen this happen several times...I am not making this up.....
4. Tuck that strap in the keeper on the right hand side, please.
5. Volunteer to have a barn clean up party. I cannot remember ever seeing a boarding barn with so many obvious hazards.....


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Ignore this comment my phone made it look like she was freaking out because I couldn't see the whole picture when I looked on my laptop I could see what you were doing.
> 
> I got this photo off the internet but see the person for thing up I check just below that sort of where the belly begins to curve. I've never had an issue for thing my TB but maybe that's not the politically correct way to do it.


Thanks. It gives me a bit better idea. 

Im just worried Im tightening the cinch too tight (at least to Fly's liking) and that's why she is turning her head back to tell me not very nicely.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You and Fly did great!! Wonderful video. Good work. I love the way she is walking along looking around, and happy.
> 
> Of course there are a few things I would change....
> 1. Put your hands together a little bit. Riding with them 3 feet apart is a punishment.
> 2. Be sure you are holding the reins with your full hand. They look sort of draped over your hand, and if a herd do wild bugs attacked her head, she would flip them right out of your hands. You are NOT being "softer" by not holding the reins.
> 3. She needs a bridle path. There is SO much hair under the bridle that the entire thing could come off in a violent shake. I have seen this happen several times...I am not making this up.....
> 4. Tuck that strap in the keeper on the right hand side, please.
> 5. Volunteer to have a barn clean up party. I cannot remember ever seeing a boarding barn with so many obvious hazards.....


Thanks. I still feel certain things could have gone better. I need to learn that when I tell her to woah, she must woah. If I have to ask her two, three, four times in a row, I know you escalate it by applying more back pressure on the reins but Im always worried about applying too much. I did what you did by using my hand in place of a horses mouth and then applying back pressure. It did give me a better idea of just how much pressure a horse is feeling, but I still cant help but be cautious.

Though mind you, yesterday, I was going to put the reins directly on the bit but I didnt want to (just for this time). Just taking extra caution thats all, after all it was the first time I rode her on my own outside. Next time, I will ride her on the bit.

1. This is a bad habit that I have but Im getting better at. THe reason why its getting better? Because my balance is getting better.

I dont mind having my hands and reigns closer side by side, but too close and it becomes uncomfortable for me. 

I know if Im riding at a trot for example and my balance is thrown off for a quick sec, my hands will automatically widen and I know this is something i need to stop (its getting better) cause my trainer always tells me. The good news is that, this is happened far less today than before and that is simply because my balance has been improving. I feel my balance has made a significant improvement from when I first started riding Fly.

How I see it is, place your hands as if you are riding a roller coaster and hanging onto the bar in front of you. NOT as if you are riding a bike and holding onto the bike handles.

2. What do you mean? I know my trainer wanted me to keep my thumbs up.

3. I believe you. I think though (trainer and I talked about it the other day in my lesson and the time is coming real soon), where we will no longer be having her halter on when riding her. So I think that will help that only having her bridle on. 

I would hate to snip off any of her beautiful mane, its her main stand out feature. Though I know my trainer said, not much would come off and you wouldnt really notice it because its right behind the ears. If I do do this, can I do it with small scissors? She will not like clippers. 

4. What strap are you refering to?

5. Do you mean the logs of wood, all the scrap metal and empty bottles around the porta potty? The good thing about this area is that its an area where its a bit off the main pathway to and from the barn. So myself, I rarely walk around the metal and scrap piles. 

But the main reason why the BO keeps stuff here is because he uses the logs for stuff. He actually has his daughter bring him fresh logs of wood every now and then because he uses it for stuff. This is really the only spot in the open where there is junk laying around but obviously the BO has it there so he can use and access it. Now, remember, my BO can't walk so when he needs stuff like this, he needs to be able to access it easily and quickly from his gator.

Im not trying to deny you on this (if this was my barn, I wouldnt have a single piece of scrap laying around anywhere), but I do see his reasons for having certain things layed out at the barn. The good news is that this is really the only pile of scrap laying around in the main area of the barn. Everything else is off into old unused sheds.


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## Rainaisabelle

You won't trim a bridle path properly with scissors it will probably have to be clippers. Secondly who cares if she won't like them she will get over it.


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## tinaev

I trim a bridle path with scissors. Sure it's not perfect but it gets the job done and you can't even tell that there is any mane gone.

ETA:

On the "whoa" issue. Is that something you can bring up in your lessons? Fly needs to stop as soon as you tell her to, not after you've asked a few times and she decides to listen. I don't nitpick my horse but stopping on command is something I feel is non-negotiable. Rio never liked stopping when I got him. What worked for me was giving the command (I use a verbal + rein) and if he ignored it he immediately got backed up, hard, to the place he was told to stop. He was then made to stand there until I was ready to carry on. Fixed him up really quick. No, it isn't all softness and light with rainbows and unicorns but stopping is a safety issue I take very seriously.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> You won't trim a bridle path properly with scissors it will probably have to be clippers. Secondly who cares if she won't like them she will get over it.


Thanks Rain.


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## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> I trim a bridle path with scissors. Sure it's not perfect but it gets the job done and you can't even tell that there is any mane gone.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> On the "whoa" issue. Is that something you can bring up in your lessons? Fly needs to stop as soon as you tell her to, not after you've asked a few times and she decides to listen. I don't nitpick my horse but stopping on command is something I feel is non-negotiable. Rio never liked stopping when I got him. What worked for me was giving the command (I use a verbal + rein) and if he ignored it he immediately got backed up, hard, to the place he was told to stop. He was then made to stand there until I was ready to carry on. Fixed him up really quick. No, it isn't all softness and light with rainbows and unicorns but stopping is a safety issue I take very seriously.


Im currently in the process teaching her that she cant walk off right after I get on her until I tell her to. Even if I get her to woah, she always intreprets me putting my feet in the stirrups as her walking on. Same with when I take my feet out of the stirrups.

You are right, I think backing her up to where I originally had asked her to woah, would be a good way to correct her. I know many would just pull back harder and harder on the reins each time they have to ask but I dont feel comfortable doing that. I dont want to me yanking on the reins. Some days Fly woahs really good, other days not as good, I just want to get it more consistent thats all. My trainer knows about it and has been helping me each time I ride her i nthe lesson working on it.

Like on Wed, after my ride was done, I asked the trainer to get on Fly to see if Fly will stand for her. Originally she did not, so my trainer gave her a quick swat with her hand on her HQ and told her woah again, then she stood.

Yesterday, Fly stood a lot better for me when I got on her, on my own. I still had to correct her a couple times (got her to swing her HQ around a full circle, again I want to move her feet), but it was MUCH quicker than last week.


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## knightrider

I always trim my bridle path with scissors and they look OK. I don't have electricity in my barn and it is too much trouble to run an extension cord out just for a simple bridle path trim. Use the scissors along the top of the neck and it will look OK.


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## Hoofpic

I caught Fly drinking from here today. No, gross lol.


























Then off she goes haha


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## Hoofpic

Took some pics of my friends wildie at the barn today. Im going to print them out for her and give them to her.


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## egrogan

Nice shots! I'm sure your friend will love them. I really like the first one.

What does "wildie" mean?


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Nice shots! I'm sure your friend will love them. I really like the first one.
> 
> What does "wildie" mean?


Thanks.

Wildie means, Wild horse.. Hes only 2, just a baby.


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## Hoofpic

Well my lesson is this morning. More riding in one stirrup (in a rising trot), in full arena and 20m circles. We started this last lesson and there was improvement when we were done than when we started it. Obviously Im better balancing with my left foot in the stirrup and right foot out because Im left handed. Im not overly crazy about doing this but I can see its reason for doing so. It will make you a better rider in the long run.


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## NeryLibra

ohh you'll be sore. Just make sure you don't build more muscle in one half of your body than the other. Makes for uneven strength.


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## Hoofpic

NeryLibra said:


> ohh you'll be sore. Just make sure you don't build more muscle in one half of your body than the other. Makes for uneven strength.


I was sore the first time we did it haha. Well turns out we didnt do it today, it was another group lesson for me and another girl and we just did a lot of circles and constantly keeping the pace up. Fly was lazy today so it took a lot on my part to get her going at times. 

I really need to lean back more when on Fly. Trainer says my feet need to be more forward, and to get that, I need to lean back more.So this is the #1 thing that I need to work on is leaning back more. I was amazed how much easier it is to keep your feet forward and heels down when you lean back.

I told my trainer the real reason on why its harder for me (than your usual rider) to lean back and that is because Im scared of heights and i get worried that if i lean back too far, I will fall backwards or to the side. Well she said that you have a MUCH greater chance falling forward than backward. Which is true. So I need to stop worrying and just lean back more.

She said the easiest way to think of it is imagine yourself in a lazy boy recliner. Back is back, feet are forward. Well lets just say I tried it right away and WHOA it felt so different doing the rising trot like that! This will take some adjustment for me thats forsure.

Anyone have any tips on keep the back all the way back?

I use my core all the time now when rising trot and balancing. I try to put the least amount of bounce on Fly each time I go up and down.


----------



## Hoofpic

I know Im going to get some flack for this (and this is the LAST thing I should be thinking about right now), but Ive been dreaming and in lulu land all this weekend about having a 2nd horse. That second horse would no doubt, no question in my mind be the buckskin in my mares herd. I really LOVE him and his personality. He is such a sweet boy. Him and I have a bond. Not that Fly and I dont have a bond (cause we do), but its different bonds with two different horses. 

If I could only afford him...If I didnt have a car payment every month, I could make it happen.

The cost of him I could swing (even though expensive), but its the long term cost that I cant afford unless I made some serious sacrifices in life. Double board, double the farrier, double the shots, vacs and dewormers, double the chiro, double the massage and of course a whole new saddle, pad, cinch, bit, bridle, etc. 

Cause right now its costing me anywhere from $340-360/month just on my lessons on Fly with my trainer. Thats almost my monthly board ($400 + tax). So imagine getting a 2nd horse. How would I choose who to ride? I would have to find balance and timing on both right? And because Duke is 15hh and (not terriblly bigger) bigger than Fly, but hes stalkier and is a bit overweight, it would mean I would have to get accustomed to two horses at once.

Would I have the time, motivation and commitment to take care of two horses? Absolutely 100%. Having two horses would give me more of an excuse to stay at the barn longer thats forsure haha. If I had to go to the barn 6 days a week all year round, then I would do it. But having two horses and working with both, it would pretty much double the amount of time you spend at the barn am I right? That wouldnt be a problem for me since Im single, and have no kids or friends. But its the cost.


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## greentree

I cannot help you with riding with your feet forward....I cannot stand to ride in a saddle that does not let my feet hang directly underneath my hips. 
You have so little riding experience that you probably still fall forward from instinct, and it is really the opposite of what your brain thinks will save you. Your balance is kept by lifting your body, not collapsing forward onto the horse. It takes a good bit of time to overcome this. 

You should get another horse....you will learn twice as fast!! Lol.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I cannot help you with riding with your feet forward....I cannot stand to ride in a saddle that does not let my feet hang directly underneath my hips.
> You have so little riding experience that you probably still fall forward from instinct, and it is really the opposite of what your brain thinks will save you. Your balance is kept by lifting your body, not collapsing forward onto the horse. It takes a good bit of time to overcome this.
> 
> You should get another horse....you will learn twice as fast!! Lol.


Things are moving fast with Fly in terms of my trainer showing me new stuff. The past month has really made me realize that riding is much MUCH deeper than I originally thought it was. 

Im getting better but I still do need to lean back more. When Fly pulls her head forward or lowers it or slows down, my upper body should not be coming forward at all. It should be still. Leaning back with the feet forward (as if you are in a car) with the heels down, all the time will allow you do prevent the body from coming forward.

I tried it today for a bit and the rising trot feels completely different (not in a bad way at all), just different. I will have to get used to it. Your'e right though, its all a mental thing in our brain. But its sinking more and more into my brain because my trainer has drawn it out for me really well. I have no doubt that I can push myself some more and accomplish it. She is right, I should not be worried at all about falling if i lean too far back. There is a much greater chance (and it happens) falling forward than behind or sideways.

I just really wish I wasnt scared of heights thats all. Even on a 14.2hh horse, when doing the reaching down, reaching the tail, etc excersize I get a bit uncomfortable in fear of falling.

My trainer wants me to just reach down whenever I have trouble putting a foot back into its stirrup or getting it out, but I dont have the confidence for that just yet and its mainly because of my fear of heights. 

Speaking of stirrups, I have a bit of a problem here where my stirrups will sometimes fall too far back on my foot and next thing you know its close to my heal. I kinda am curious as to how the english ones (steel, super thin) would be and if they would make any difference.

Also, Im going to shop for some "riding boots". Nothing wrong with my boots now, I just think I could feel more comfortable with better and appropriate shoes thats all. Mine now are just too thick and its a PITA to just get in and out of stirrups. They feel like bricks on my feet lol. So Im going to see if i can find some leather riding boots.

I have to ask, how come riders in barrel racing or cowboy challenge lean so forward? Like way forward as if theyre riding a bike.

There is one boarder at the barn who has two horses (everyone else has one)(trainer has 3 but she doesnt really count since she gets free board, trims, shots, etc im sure). But I had a chat with her a few weeks ago about how she enjoys having two horses (she has two mares) and it was interesting to hear.

My ex had two horses too (one mare and one gelding, 7 and 3 years. Theres lots of things about owning two horses that really excite me but I think the biggest is the fact you get to know and connect with two different personalities. And what you learn with one horse (whether its something they teach you or you teach them) and you can apply it to the other.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I say this with niceness intended. Do not under any circumstances buy another horse. You are not ready to handle 2 horses and no offence can barely get it all together with the one you've got. 

Enjoy the horse you have she's young.


----------



## egrogan

Is this the horse the BO owns? Is he available to ride in lessons?


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I say this with niceness intended. Do not under any circumstances buy another horse. You are not ready to handle 2 horses and no offence can barely get it all together with the one you've got.
> 
> Enjoy the horse you have she's young.


I know getting a 2nd horse shouldnt even be on my mind. Its still (and can be) a goal for me down the road but right now, Im best off continueing to spend that $300-400 a month on my training, attending clinics, etc and increase my learning. Then when I more knowledgeable to the point where I can taper down on my lessons, then I can perhaps consider a second horse.

Peter Campbell said in his clinic, "Green = learning" so im best off continuing to put a good amount of money each month into my learning.


----------



## EliRose

Please don't get a second horse, especially one who looks pretty in the field that you have a "bond" with. I don't think you'd have a bond with him if he was a plain brown or red horse.


And he is probably not for sale.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Is this the horse the BO owns? Is he available to ride in lessons?


Yes the BO owns him, but hes (as well as the chestnut in my herd) have been for sale for the past year or so. From what I was told, they haven't garnered a lot of interest because of the asking prices for them.

They both were born at the barn and have spent their entire 10 year lives there but were never used as lesson horses. From what I know, both of their training have come from my trainer and she worked them and rode them when they were younger (she also broke them in), but over the past few years they have become field horses and rode maybe once every 5 or 6 months. 

The BO used to breed at the barn, when he used to have a couple stallions, but they passed away (about 10 years ago he stopped), and he would get the trainer to break them in the foals and train them, to eventually sell.

The barn has, about 30 horses right now (that includes the 2 mini donkeys that my trainer and a boarder owns), 3 are my trainers, 7 are 6 other boarders (including myself), only 5 or 6 are lesson horses, and the rest are field horses (some are getting up there in age so theyre retired and enjoying the pasture life), and 6 or 7 of those field horses are for sale.

But I know the BO's daughters come to the barn often to ride a couple of the field horses to get them excersize but not the two boys in Flys herd.

There are a couple horses (for sale) on the property that have some really extensive training. Of course the asking prices are up there.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

He's not for you then at all. If you're going to buy another horse which I pray you don't for atleast another couple of years buy something that's well broke and hasn't been siting in a paddock but has been in some consistent work.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> He's not for you then at all. If you're going to buy another horse which I pray you don't for atleast another couple of years buy something that's well broke and hasn't been siting in a paddock but has been in some consistent work.


Thats true. Duke can be for me but it would take a lot of work to get him back into shape because hes been a field horse over the past few years.

Is it true that horses that have not been worked for so long can become "untrained" and have to go back and retrain them again on some aspects? This is what I hear.

And remember, even if I was to talk to the BO about buying him, he might not even sell him to me seeing how he has high standards and he wants to make sure that his horses go to capable owners and ones who are a good fit for them. So he wouldnt just sell him to me for the sake of the sale (which is a good sign of an honest BO). He doesnt even know that I even like Duke this much to consider owning him, but he does know that I like him a lot).


----------



## EliRose

For the love of god don't buy him.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Im getting better but I still do need to lean back more. When Fly pulls her head forward or lowers it or slows down, my upper body should not be coming forward at all. It should be still. Leaning back with the feet forward (as if you are in a car) with the heels down, all the time will allow you do prevent the body from coming forward.


Ok, now I don't like your trainer so much unless she's only having you do this to temporarily to loosen your lower back & hips.


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Thats true. Duke can be for me but it would take a lot of work to get him back into shape because hes been a field horse over the past few years.
> 
> Is it true that horses that have not been worked for so long can become "untrained" and have to go back and retrain them again on some aspects? This is what I hear.


They're not bicycles, of course they can forget, and it sounds like he has only very basic training in the first. You have been INCREDIBLY lucky to have a green horse as gentle as your mare, don't test your luck.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> He's not for you then at all. If you're going to buy another horse which I pray you don't for atleast another couple of years buy something that's well broke and hasn't been siting in a paddock but has been in some consistent work.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats true. Duke can be for me but it would take a lot of work to get him back into shape because hes been a field horse over the past few years.
> 
> Is it true that horses that have not been worked for so long can become "untrained" and have to go back and retrain them again on some aspects? This is what I hear.
Click to expand...

Don't even think about it. Yes they can become untrained especially if they are just green broken and put back in the field


----------



## Hoofpic

Ive never been a fan of buckskins until I met this boy. This is from the winter, I want to get some more recent pics of him.


----------



## natisha

Riders at speed lean forward to stay over the horse's center of gravity.


----------



## EliRose

Sorry but I'm sure the only reason you have any interest or "bond" with the horse is because he's a cute color.

I honestly think you need a good fall to get some perspective.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Ok, now I don't like your trainer so much unless she's only having you do this to temporarily to loosen your lower back & hips.


What? I dont think she is wanting me to do this temporarily. At least thats the impression that I got today.

She wants me to lean back so my back is perfectly vertical and this will allow me to naturally keep my feet more forward (she wants them all the time where the stirrups naturally sit when hanging on the saddle) and my heels down.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

You shouldn't ride with your feet forward so I bloody hope it's temporary! You ride with your feet underneath you !


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> They're not bicycles, of course they can forget, and it sounds like he has only very basic training in the first. You have been INCREDIBLY lucky to have a green horse as gentle as your mare, don't test your luck.


Im not sure how many hours he's had on him but the feeling I got was that it's basic training as well. But he does know how to lope and apparently has a very good lope. 

Yes ive been incredibly lucky to have such a gentle green mare and Im not overlooking that fact.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> You shouldn't ride with your feet forward so I bloody hope it's temporary! You ride with your feet underneath you !


No, no...thats what my trainer wants. But shes just saying "forward, keep them forward" because at times my feet can get so (unintentionally of course) so far back. And then of course, with your feet back, your toes are down to the ground, not heels.

So lets take this pic for example (it looks somewhat similar to my saddle now).










See where the stirrups fall when the saddle is sitting like that? That is where my trainer wants me feet to be all the time when riding.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> You shouldn't ride with your feet forward so I bloody hope it's temporary! You ride with your feet underneath you !
> 
> 
> 
> No, no...thats what my trainer wants. But shes just saying "forward, keep them forward" because at times my feet can get so (unintentionally of course) so far back. And then of course, with your feet back, your toes are down to the ground, not heels.
Click to expand...

you should probably mention that then


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> you should probably mention that then


Sorry, I didnt explain it the best way. 

Does that pic help? 

Right now my trainer is just making things a bit exagerated (for the time being) so that it sinks in mentally for me more.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Sorry but I'm sure the only reason you have any interest or "bond" with the horse is because he's a cute color.
> 
> I honestly think you need a good fall to get some perspective.


No, its his personality that I've fallen in love with. 

Don't worry Im not buying him. But its nice to picture life with him as my second horse. 

The good thing is that the BO doesnt care when I pet, scratch or give him attention (he normally doesnt like people putting their hands on horses they dont own), but hes fine with me in this case. So im lucky to be able to give him attention and be around him whenever Im at the barn.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

You need to be realistic. You can barely ride your own horse right now. There would be no 100%, and no one needs an excuse to stay longer at the barn. The barn is not a payphone, you can stay as long as you want... no need to add quarters. Just obviously be respectful.

You can't bond with a horse that you haven't worked with. You sound in lust with a pretty colored horse. That kind of mentality will get you run over in the field because you aren't looking to read his body language, you are making googly eyes and thinking you and him are best friends. That's dangerous.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> You can barely ride your own horse right now.


Hey, come on now.



> You can't bond with a horse that you haven't worked with. You sound in lust with a pretty colored horse. That kind of mentality will get you run over in the field because you aren't looking to read his body language, you are making googly eyes and thinking you and him are best friends. That's dangerous.


Im not in lust. I really do love his personality.


----------



## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> Im not in lust. I really do love his personality.


But how can you know that when you have never worked with him? Plenty of horses are pleasant and curious of people when they're never asked to do anything but hang out in a field. But once you start working with them, that "real" personality emerges-especially a horse who has been asked for nothing for 10 years. Even my no-nonsense mare will give me some attitude the first time I ride after being gone for a week on a work trip. 

Some horses truly do need a job to trive and act out if they don't have that structure and purpose, but I think most horses would much prefer to stand in a field and not so much. You're going to see their personality and your abilities come out in that moment of giving them a new routine.


----------



## Tazzie

I also vote NO on a second horse! Especially one that will be equally green as your mare. I'll add a bit of perspective..

Izzie is a HANDFUL. But she's well trained. However, she had time off this past winter due to me having a broken wrist and really crappy weather. I got back on when the weather turned nice, and you would think my horse had entered herself into the saddle bronc competition at the local rodeo. This is a horse that has had a LOT of schooling, a LOT of training, and was put up for 3 months? This is NOT something you need to get involved with. Yeah, MAYBE he will be quieter than she was under saddle, but that is to give you an idea. It took me a few good riding days, and a couple of sweaty saddle pads, for Izzie to remember that she was in fact well trained and we didn't need the bronc antics. Also, you can easily go up and snuggle Izzie in the field all day long. But there is a very valid reason why I'm picky of how greener riders get to ride her. My husband can trail ride her, but he isn't allowed to do more than a walk when she's in full work. He flat out can't handle the amount that horse gives under saddle. And you ARE a green rider still.

I get what Sky was saying. You've walked your mare outside. Maybe done a little trotting. But you haven't been met with a situation where she has the option to trust you and relax, or ditch your rear end and leave. With how young and green she is, I would be shocked if it doesn't come sometime in the future. Well, that and she's a horse and the dumbest things can set them off.

A lot of us have stars in our eyes about a second horse. I'd LOVE another one to bring along. But I won't be able to have that until I have my own place, and really my husband and kids will get their mounts before I get a second one. That and the cost of horse ownership in general stop a lot of us. My suggestion is every time you feel the desire to buy another horse, put the cost of board/farrier/vet/etc for that month into a savings account. Then, maybe in a few years when you have had a LOT more lessons (and really, one should ALWAYS be in lessons; I have one tonight as a matter of fact), you could maybe get a second one. Years down the road. After you've taken at least one christening fall.


----------



## greentree

OK, Hoofpic, story time.....

I have NEVER met a person who TOLD me they knew how to ride that could actually ride.....for instance...(and I invite people to come ride at my house all the time) when we first moved here, we had gone around and met the neighbors, told them we were bringing horses, etc. The lady across the street was so excited, because they loved horses, and her daughter rode, yay! So a few months later when the horses arrived and got settled in, I asked her over to "help". 
We were working with one of the mares, and I asked if she wanted to sit on her while I led her back to the pasture. I put her up(this person, AND her DM, had gone on and on about how great a rider she was....), and as soon as the horse took a step, she collapsed onto her neck, like a monkey. So I explained to her how to sit up, grab some mane if she needed.....

If I ask someone to ride, and they say something like, oh, I love horses, and yes, I have ridden a bit, they usually know how to ride, and have no problem...

I believe Hoofpic's instructor is using the" overcompensation " or exaggeration tool in training him. If I remember from his video(I don't have enough gigs to go watch it again), his legs were crawling up.....totally normal to fix one part(hands) and break something else(legs), until he learns to control all the body parts...


----------



## jenkat86

greentree said:


> I believe Hoofpic's instructor is using the" overcompensation " or exaggeration tool in training him. If I remember from his video(I don't have enough gigs to go watch it again), his legs were crawling up.....totally normal to fix one part(hands) and break something else(legs), until he learns to control all the body parts...


I agree with this.


----------



## NeryLibra

Focus on time with Fly and building your relationship with her through her training. Or if this horse is a lesson horse, perhaps you can get on him with your trainer's help. But Both of you will greatly benefit from if you spend the time with your mare. It's always fun to pet a pretty pony every once in a while, but it's Fly who needs your devotion, and she is the one currently teaching you.


----------



## carshon

I swore I was not going to post on this every going thread any longer but the hands in the video led me to it.

Hoofpic - when your trainer says thumbs up she does not mean - thumbs pointing out to the sides what she means is what I call - motorcycle hands. The reins should be held like you are holding the handles of a motorcycle and your thumbs should both be pointing at the horses main and the outside of your hand should be ever slightly down so your thumbs are "up" this is the position a motorcycle handle bar would have your hands. To me the "true" sign of a beginner is how they hold the reins and most hold them as you are doing in your video. 

Fly is a super sweet mare and seems very forgiving.

And for the record - I vote "No" on a second horse. To me this is part of the arrogance I read in your posts - that you feel you are ready to move past Fly to a more advanced horse.

Keep up with your lessons really learn how to ride your horse.


----------



## jenkat86

In your latest video, were the reins attached to the halter or to the bit? 

Generally, I don't think it's a great idea to ride a green horse in an un-contained area without a bit, especially when the rider doesn't have body control yet. Lot's of things could go wrong there.


----------



## greentree

jenkat86 said:


> In your latest video, were the reins attached to the halter or to the bit?
> 
> Generally, I don't think it's a great idea to ride a green horse in an un-contained area without a bit, especially when the rider doesn't have body control yet. Lot's of things could go wrong there.


I have yet to figure out how running the reins through the halter to the bit does anything...


----------



## jenkat86

greentree said:


> I have yet to figure out how running the reins through the halter to the bit does anything...


It's definitely not sending clear signals, that's for sure.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> But how can you know that when you have never worked with him? Plenty of horses are pleasant and curious of people when they're never asked to do anything but hang out in a field. But once you start working with them, that "real" personality emerges-especially a horse who has been asked for nothing for 10 years. Even my no-nonsense mare will give me some attitude the first time I ride after being gone for a week on a work trip.
> 
> Some horses truly do need a job to trive and act out if they don't have that structure and purpose, but I think most horses would much prefer to stand in a field and not so much. You're going to see their personality and your abilities come out in that moment of giving them a new routine.


Good point, thanks. You are right, some horses do need to be worked to thrive.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I also vote NO on a second horse! Especially one that will be equally green as your mare. I'll add a bit of perspective..
> 
> Izzie is a HANDFUL. But she's well trained. However, she had time off this past winter due to me having a broken wrist and really crappy weather. I got back on when the weather turned nice, and you would think my horse had entered herself into the saddle bronc competition at the local rodeo. This is a horse that has had a LOT of schooling, a LOT of training, and was put up for 3 months? This is NOT something you need to get involved with. Yeah, MAYBE he will be quieter than she was under saddle, but that is to give you an idea. It took me a few good riding days, and a couple of sweaty saddle pads, for Izzie to remember that she was in fact well trained and we didn't need the bronc antics. Also, you can easily go up and snuggle Izzie in the field all day long. But there is a very valid reason why I'm picky of how greener riders get to ride her. My husband can trail ride her, but he isn't allowed to do more than a walk when she's in full work. He flat out can't handle the amount that horse gives under saddle. And you ARE a green rider still.
> 
> I get what Sky was saying. You've walked your mare outside. Maybe done a little trotting. But you haven't been met with a situation where she has the option to trust you and relax, or ditch your rear end and leave. With how young and green she is, I would be shocked if it doesn't come sometime in the future. Well, that and she's a horse and the dumbest things can set them off.
> 
> A lot of us have stars in our eyes about a second horse. I'd LOVE another one to bring along. But I won't be able to have that until I have my own place, and really my husband and kids will get their mounts before I get a second one. That and the cost of horse ownership in general stop a lot of us. My suggestion is every time you feel the desire to buy another horse, put the cost of board/farrier/vet/etc for that month into a savings account. Then, maybe in a few years when you have had a LOT more lessons (and really, one should ALWAYS be in lessons; I have one tonight as a matter of fact), you could maybe get a second one. Years down the road. After you've taken at least one christening fall.


Thanks Tazzie. You put things into perspective. Don't worry, I will not be buying a 2nd horse any time soon.

But its still a goal of mine for the future. A goal that I will work towards. But it wont happen for years until I get my knowledge and experience more up there. But it will be a goal that is far down the road that i wont even think aboutright now.

You are absolutely right about how horses can change a bit when they have time off. I've seen this first hand with my ex's mare. She would have time off in the winters and then she would have bad manners again and be disrespectful again just before riding time is coming.

Could it happen with my mare? Of course. But I want to be prepared knowing exactly how to handle the situation before it happens.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> OK, Hoofpic, story time.....
> 
> I have NEVER met a person who TOLD me they knew how to ride that could actually ride.....for instance...(and I invite people to come ride at my house all the time) when we first moved here, we had gone around and met the neighbors, told them we were bringing horses, etc. The lady across the street was so excited, because they loved horses, and her daughter rode, yay! So a few months later when the horses arrived and got settled in, I asked her over to "help".
> We were working with one of the mares, and I asked if she wanted to sit on her while I led her back to the pasture. I put her up(this person, AND her DM, had gone on and on about how great a rider she was....), and as soon as the horse took a step, she collapsed onto her neck, like a monkey. So I explained to her how to sit up, grab some mane if she needed.....
> 
> If I ask someone to ride, and they say something like, oh, I love horses, and yes, I have ridden a bit, they usually know how to ride, and have no problem...
> 
> I believe Hoofpic's instructor is using the" overcompensation " or exaggeration tool in training him. If I remember from his video(I don't have enough gigs to go watch it again), his legs were crawling up.....totally normal to fix one part(hands) and break something else(legs), until he learns to control all the body parts...


Thanks for the story as an example. But I do believe that I know how to ride, Im just still learning and getting better. Yes im still green but as long as Im making progress, thats the most important thing and my trainer says I am progressing really well and quicker than a lot of people that she is teaching/has taught. Im not getting over ahead of myself, but you need to remain confident in yourself with your head up in order to achieve your goals. 

I remember the first time I got on Fly, I was nervous and trotting on her on a 20m circle I was having trouble to keep my balance on her. I wasn't worried after the lesson was done about this, but it was quite a change from what I was used to on the lesson mare but my trainer kept telling me that she has confidence in me being able to ride her and I just need time and practice. She's obviously a big fan of circles and I will say that she's probably made me do more circles on Fly in the past 6-7 weeks, than I have in the entire time I rode the lesson mare. 

I have made some pretty significant adjustments from when I first rode Fly. I followed Goldens advice. Do I still record and watch my lessons after? Yes, but i watch for fun. I do not pin point on exactly what I need to improve on for next lesson. I go into my lessons with no expectations really. I get on and have fun and am taking things as Fly tells me (Which I owe big thanks to my trainer because she is really emphasizing on what Fly is telling me lesson to lesson).

Yes my trainer is very much using the exaggeration tool in training me. Which I have nothing against. She just wants what she is telling me to sink into my head in the easiest and simpliest manner.

She has me do this on Fly on stuff that she is still fairly new to (like moving her front end, yielding etc), so she trained me to make my que that I give Fly 100x more obvious to start, so that she understands it easier and then as she learns it, you dont exagerate your que nearly as much. It has worked.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> so she trained me to make my que that I give Fly 100x more obvious to start, so that she understands it easier and then as she learns it, you dont exagerate your que nearly as much.


...but she has you run your reins through the halter which in turn gives your horse NO clear command to follow.


----------



## Hoofpic

NeryLibra said:


> Focus on time with Fly and building your relationship with her through her training. Or if this horse is a lesson horse, perhaps you can get on him with your trainer's help. But Both of you will greatly benefit from if you spend the time with your mare. It's always fun to pet a pretty pony every once in a while, but it's Fly who needs your devotion, and she is the one currently teaching you.


I agree. And I am spending as much time as I can with Fly. I make sure to have our days too at the barn where we just hang out. I take her for walks, let her graze, etc. Even though I have mostly been riding her over the past 7 weeks, I do feel variety is still important and I want to continue doing other stuff like bringing in new obstacles, going for walks etc. 

Because ultimately, Fly's interest is in obstacles, cowboy challenge, etc. Going around the arena round and round does not stimulate her mind enough. And fortunately, this is how I am as well. THough I do now see the purpose in doing all these circles in the arena and change of directions and getting your horse to bend, ultimately, when I get better, I want to be riding Fly at a trot around barrels, around jumps, over logs, maybe even light jumps in the arena on my own.

I cant over look what Fly is teaching me and if I was to get a second horse, (even though I have the time and commitment in taking care of two horses) perhaps I would be too overwhelmed. So thats why me buying a 2nd horse would not be something for years down the road (and thats only if I can get my knowledge and experience to a certain level).


----------



## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> I swore I was not going to post on this every going thread any longer but the hands in the video led me to it.
> 
> Hoofpic - when your trainer says thumbs up she does not mean - thumbs pointing out to the sides what she means is what I call - motorcycle hands. The reins should be held like you are holding the handles of a motorcycle and your thumbs should both be pointing at the horses main and the outside of your hand should be ever slightly down so your thumbs are "up" this is the position a motorcycle handle bar would have your hands. To me the "true" sign of a beginner is how they hold the reins and most hold them as you are doing in your video.
> 
> Fly is a super sweet mare and seems very forgiving.
> 
> And for the record - I vote "No" on a second horse. To me this is part of the arrogance I read in your posts - that you feel you are ready to move past Fly to a more advanced horse.
> 
> Keep up with your lessons really learn how to ride your horse.



How do people hold onto motorbike handles?

So your thumbs should be pointed up to the sky?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> ...but she has you run your reins through the halter which in turn gives your horse NO clear command to follow.


Was just about to reply to your last post.

My trainer (as of a week ago, maybe bit more) has given me the go ahead to be able to ride Fly with the reins directly on the bit whenever I want. This also includes when riding Fly unsupervised. Yesterday in my lesson, I had the reins right on the bit. On Wed lesson, outside in the arena, I have the reins right on the bit. 

But last Fri when I rode her outside on my own, I was wanting to put the reins right on the bit but i was debating if it was the best idea because it was the first time me riding Fly outside on my own unsupervised. So I put them through the halter. Which IMO, now I see it as a mistake. I should have put it right on the bit. Afterall, my trainer has told me that I no longer need to put the reins through the halter. But now that I have my first ride on Fly outside unsupervised under my belt, you can bet the next time I will have those reins right on the bit.

The ONLY reason why we are still having the halter on her when riding her is just in case, she acts up in one lesson and we need to move the reins from the bit back onto the halter. But trainer says chances of that are small but you never know, just extra caution. Otherwise, its very soon that we will be having the halter off when riding her (Id say 1-2 weeks).

But yes you are right, even my trainer said it that ques will send a better signal to her when the reins are on the bit.


----------



## karliejaye

Hoofpic said:


> How do people hold onto motorbike handles?
> 
> So your thumbs should be pointed up to the sky?


----------



## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


>


Thanks. But Ive never seen anyone ride a horse like that before. Hands straight up?


----------



## karliejaye

Yes, it positions your radius and ulna so they are not crossed, making it easier to be fluid, soft and following from your elbow. From this neutral arm position you can also give small signals with your pinky finger, pull directly back, take your arm out to the side with an opening rein, or push the rein in to form a "bearing" rein, depending on what aid/cue you are giving. This is the only position I was ever taught to be correct, from dozens of instructors and clinicians throughout my riding career.


----------



## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Yes, it positions your radius and ulna so they are not crossed, making it easier to be fluid, soft and following from your elbow. From this neutral arm position you can also give small signals with your pinky finger, pull directly back, take your arm out to the side with an opening rein, or push the rein in to form a "bearing" rein, depending on what aid/cue you are giving. This is the only position I was ever taught to be correct, from dozens of instructors and clinicians throughout my riding career.


Thanks. Does sound interesting, I might have to try it out for next ride. So obviously with the thumbs pointed to the sky, the excess reins will loop from the top of the hands?


----------



## karliejaye

Yep, the bight (technical term for the excess loop) will fall from the top of your hands, into a loop that will fall to one side or the other.


----------



## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Yep, the bight (technical term for the excess loop) will fall from the top of your hands, into a loop that will fall to one side or the other.


Okay thanks, I get it now. And you keep your thumbs up right? Or can you keep them relaxed but still up? 

I know its wierd but every person Ive watched ride have their hands at an angle. Perhaps I saw some in the most recent clinic with their hands straight up.


----------



## greentree

"Thanks for the story as an example. But I do believe that I know how to ride, Im just still learning and getting better. "

You believe whatever you want to believe.......


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You believe whatever you want to believe.......


ANd Im doing just that. You can think what you choose. Because you have to go in with a postive attitude in order to get better at something. If I was to go into my lessons telling myself that I cant ride, that will just bring a negative attitude from me and you cant progress and achieve your goals with a pessimistic way of thinking. Plus I would go into my lessons with zero confidence and constantly doubting myself and thats the last thing I want Fly to feed from me. 

I feel I can ride and will only get better. Obviously, Im not looking to become a professional rider. I just want to become a good enough rider to ride my mare and maybe beyond some. I think if I can accomplish this goal, it will be a pretty big accomplishment seeing how green she is.


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## greentree

I am not trying to be negative, but being negative and being realistic are two different things.


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## Prairie

A true rider recognizes that the journey of the horse is long with many twists and turns, is never ending since there will always be more to learn, and is a lifetime commitment to improve. They don't repeatedly comment about how good they are, knowing too well that there will always be someone else who can do better, and even when they reach the top of the game, don't boast since they realize that nobody will ever know as much about horses than the "dumb" animal that they ride. 


They also don't blame the horse for her shortcomings, recognizing that the horse is a reflection of the rider. If the horse is misbehaving, too green, too distracted, too hard to bridle and saddle, too spooky, look in the mirror----that reflection is the one who failed the horse!


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I am not trying to be negative, but being negative and being realistic are two different things.


Well then I dont know what to say about that. I'm just focusing on making steps in the right direction, not the big picture. The big picture will eventually come. 

If you think one way, you will have no confidence and doubt in your mind and you will second guess yourself all the time. Ive been down this road before many times in my life on other things.


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## greentree

Horses, since they are so psychic, tend to be great equalizers. Never say,"Hey, watch THIS", especially with a camera rolling!
They will make A humble being out of that person almost every time!


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## EliRose

Still think you need a good fall.

This isn't a hit at you, but all super novices who are getting cocky need to get some dirt in their mouths. Horses will make you humble.


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## tinyliny

Prairie said:


> A true rider recognizes that the journey of the horse is long with many twists and turns, is never ending since there will always be more to learn, and is a lifetime commitment to improve. *They don't repeatedly comment about how good they are, knowing too well that there will always be someone else who can do better, *and even when they reach the top of the game, don't boast since they realize that nobody will ever know as much about horses than the "dumb" animal that they ride.
> 
> 
> They also don't blame the horse for her shortcomings, recognizing that the horse is a reflection of the rider. If the horse is misbehaving, too green, too distracted, too hard to bridle and saddle, too spooky, look in the mirror----that reflection is the one who failed the horse!


true, but they also are allowed to pat themselves on the back a little, now and then. if no one recognizes their own progress, why would they keep trying?


a person cannot 'try' to be humble. real humility doesn't come from trying. it just comes of its' own.

I venture to guess most of us who have years of experience went through the place where we were pretty sure we had it down, that we were pretty good at riding now. . . . 

and then . . . 

but having someone tell you that the 'then' is coming almost takes the wind out of those sails. let the stumbler stumble without telling him he's about to.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Still think you need a good fall.
> 
> This isn't a hit at you, but all super novices who are getting cocky need to get some dirt in their mouths. Horses will make you humble.


I dont need a fall thank you.

Im just confident that I can become a good rider. Nothing wrong with that.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Still think you need a good fall.
> 
> This isn't a hit at you, but all super novices who are getting cocky need to get some dirt in their mouths. Horses will make you humble.


I dont need a fall thank you.

Im just confident that I can become a good rider. Nothing wrong with that. Confident is everything when learning. I can do what all of you want and thats to keep telling myself that I cant ride, but then why would one continue with something if they just doubt themselves in being able to do it? You cant believe in yourself if you tell yourself you are not good at what youre learning.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I dont need a fall thank you.
> 
> Im just confident that I can become a good rider. Nothing wrong with that. Confident is everything when learning. I can do what all of you want and thats to keep telling myself that I cant ride, but then why would one continue with something if they just doubt themselves in being able to do it? You cant believe in yourself if you tell yourself you are not good at what youre learning.


Confidence is important, but so is perspective.

I don't think you understood a word I typed. Getting cocky is different from having confidence - you've been poo-pooing about the other people from your barn all over this thread, acting like you know all. I have met GOOD riders who've had to finally take a reality check once they fell off. There is a reason "you're not a rider until you've fallen" is a big saying. It's a rite of passage, not meant to be a discouraging.


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## Prairie

There's a huge difference in believing in yourself and being over-confident. Before one can move forward and improve, you need to recognize that there is a problem. Look at your bridling video.......


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> There's a huge difference in believing in yourself and being over-confident. Before one can move forward and improve, you need to recognize that there is a problem. Look at your bridling video.......


Ive made strides in my bridling over the past week and a half.


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## greentree

The difference is like this:

If I go to some photography website.....I start asking camera questions. I go out and buy a Nikon camera. Then I go to the website and say I KNOW how to do photography. Really, I point the camera, push the button, the picture gets taken....how hard can it be??? But I want the photo to look like Ansel Adams' pictures......I mean, I KNOW how to take a picture!!!!

they want to know what f-stop I am using, what my light meter says, what aperture the camera is using, what lens I have....huh?? I point the camera and push the button....I KNOW how to take a picture!! 

Why can't they just tell me how to make it look like Ansel Adams???

The End.

I agree that you should have confidence, but confidence is telling yourself that you are doing well for the amount of training that you have had...celebrating "getting it". 

Telling other people you "know how to ride" is.....delusional. Telling yourself is OK, though.


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic, no one is being mean to you. We are just seeing in your posts what we've also seen in person. Cocky beginners who think they know everything. My husband was super cocky about it, since he could ride a motorcycle ya know. Then I fell off in a big way and nearly tore my right arm off. It was amazing how suddenly he wasn't cocky anymore. And it wasn't even him who took the fall. You can be confident without being cocky. It truly is possible. I'm a confident rider. I'm not the best rider in the world, but if I don't ride confidently, Izzie will take advantage. Now, if I'm cocky, she'll throw my behind in the dirt.

And Eli posted a very common quote. Kind of like you're not a cowboy until you've fallen, dusted yourself off, and got back on. Every trainer I've had has eaten dirt. The one before my current one came off in a bad way and fractured her collar bone. Still taught lessons, just one handed when helping with the horse.

The point is, you will come off one day. You're riding an animal that thinks for itself. With horses it's not a matter of "if", but "when" you fall off.


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## jenkat86

Tazzie said:


> With horses it's not a matter of "if", but "when" you fall off.


...and how bad it's going to hurt!


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## Rainaisabelle

I've eaten dirt 6 times and proud of it


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## Skyseternalangel

I've "eaten sand" 5 times in one ride... and still got back on. By the third time I was laughing, like "come on" and walked after Sky very slowly since I was quite dizzy from getting up so fast. 

He galloped in the pasture 5 times, I think he was giving himself a stretch break lol!


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> How do people hold onto motorbike handles?
> 
> So your thumbs should be pointed up to the sky?


I ride motorcycles & my thumbs sure aren't pointing up. They are below the grips, holding my hands in place so the fingers can work the clutch & brake.

On reins the thumb is on top to feed the rein out (lengthen) or take them in (shorten). The thumb also locks the reins in place & allows you to work the fingers. All easier to do if the thumbs are up but as with anything it takes some practice.


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## jenkat86

natisha said:


> All easier to do if the thumbs are up but as with anything it takes some practice.


It does take practice. It took me a few times of getting my reins yanked out of my hands for me to find a spot where I was comfortable.


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## Hoofpic

I understand what you are all saying. Im fully aware that Im still very much learning. But I don't mean at all to come across as arrogant because I know that im still green and have a lot of room to improve on. Im just being confident and optimistic in myself being able to become a good enough rider for Fly that's all. So when my trainer tells me "good job" or that Im making good progress or did this or that well, I take it into heart because a trainers/teachers encouragement and positive spirit mean a lot to me. So when she says it, I acknowledge it. ANd this is what makes her such a great person to learn from. 

I would rather have a positive and upbeat trainer who instills confidence in their riders than one who would constantly ridicule their riders "not good enough, not good enough". If I rode under a trainer like that, I would have quit riding by now. A trainers energy and positivity means everything for riders (just my opinion).

Its just when I say stuff as it is, like when Im getting better at this or that, I gain confidence from it, but Im not trying to say Im so good of a rider. So if my trainer says I did this or that well, I won't mention it anymore because I come across as being arrogant. I'll post another video of me riding in my lesson but I'm thinking at least a year at the soonest. And I think that might be scretching it as being too soon. Maybe two to three years is more realistic. Because everyone on here has years of riding experience so of course im not going to be able to match that. 

I'm not looking at getting perfect balance or perfect this and that, Im just looking at making progress and doing it consistently and I have been. First of all, I hate hate hate the word "perfect", its the absolute worst word in the dictionary as there is no such thing (and it sets unrealistic expectations) as perfect....but stuff like great timing and great balance will come with time. I can't look at someone who has been riding for years and years and tell myself that is what I want to achieve, because its well down the road and too big of a picture that Im looking at. So that is why Im just focusing on baby steps here and there. Practice and practice and results will come. 

I wont fall because I wont allow for it to happen. Im making adjustments for the next lesson. The last lesson with my trainer really did open some eyes and what she's been saying really sunk into my head.


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## Prairie

" I wont fall because I wont allow for it to happen"


.....and it's that attitude that leads to those ground checks! Nobody has perfect balance and is in synch with the horse 100%, horses spook, slip, go down, and the rider eats dirt. The last time I had a ground check, I certainly didn't mount up planning to fall, but it happened because my mare slipped and lost her footing coming off a steep butte----I'm thankful both of us were unhurt and just mounted up to continue the ride.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic, I think you would benefit from reading back what you write, out loud, before you hit submit. Really HEAR what you are saying and see if it matches what you are trying to say.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Hoofpic, I think you would benefit from reading back what you write, out loud, before you hit submit. Really HEAR what you are saying and see if it matches what you are trying to say.


I am. I think what im writing makes sense.


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## tinyliny

it feels like the OP of this JOURNAL thread (an area of the forum that should be free from uninvited critique) is being badgered to the point where he doesn't feel 'safe' to post any more riding videos. come on, folks. it's not our duty to grow him up fast. let him figure it out on his own.


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I wont fall because I wont allow for it to happen.


Yes, I really shouldn't have allowed myself to fall, rupture my artery, nearly die, and now need to be on baby aspirin for the rest of my life to prevent a clot. Shame on me for not preventing my 3 year old mare from totally losing her mind when a tractor started up out of sight as I cued her to canter.

Shame on my former trainer for riding a green horse that decided to have a differing opinion and threw her hard enough to break her collar bone. Did I mention this woman JUST sold a horse to an Olympic rider because the mare she was bringing along was THAT good and THAT well trained?

So, essentially, you want to say you're a better rider than a trainer who just sent a horse to become a candidate for the future Olympics.

Hoofpic, again, I'm not trying to be mean. But this is the kind of comment that has you coming across as cocky and arrogant. We see you trying hard. We see you improving. And it's great to watch you succeed. But there isn't a person on this Earth that is too great of a rider not to fall. Search many Olympic riders. Courtney King-Dye rode a quieter horse on the trail. Her horse tripped. She fell. She wasn't wearing a helmet. Now this former Regular Olympian rides in the Paralimpics. Accidents happen. Saying you won't fall because you won't allow it will not prevent if Fly trips. Will not prevent her having a major disagreement with you. And will not prevent a tractor starting up way out of sight.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Yes, I really shouldn't have allowed myself to fall, rupture my artery, nearly die, and now need to be on baby aspirin for the rest of my life to prevent a clot. Shame on me for not preventing my 3 year old mare from totally losing her mind when a tractor started up out of sight as I cued her to canter.
> 
> Shame on my former trainer for riding a green horse that decided to have a differing opinion and threw her hard enough to break her collar bone. Did I mention this woman JUST sold a horse to an Olympic rider because the mare she was bringing along was THAT good and THAT well trained?
> 
> So, essentially, you want to say you're a better rider than a trainer who just sent a horse to become a candidate for the future Olympics.
> 
> Hoofpic, again, I'm not trying to be mean. But this is the kind of comment that has you coming across as cocky and arrogant. We see you trying hard. We see you improving. And it's great to watch you succeed. But there isn't a person on this Earth that is too great of a rider not to fall. Search many Olympic riders. Courtney King-Dye rode a quieter horse on the trail. Her horse tripped. She fell. She wasn't wearing a helmet. Now this former Regular Olympian rides in the Paralimpics. Accidents happen. Saying you won't fall because you won't allow it will not prevent if Fly trips. Will not prevent her having a major disagreement with you. And will not prevent a tractor starting up way out of sight.


I know accidents happen and theres nothing you can do to prevent it. 

What I meant to say was that I wont fall from my fault being the cause. For example, me not being balanced on her when trotting. So When I say I wont allow it when im trotting her, it means that I have set expectations for myself to get my balance to a good enough level that I wont fall from my error.


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## Tazzie

You really should have expanded on that a bit :wink: but while you are still learning, you will be unbalanced a few times. It's just how you learn and grow.

I know you felt you couldn't compare to some of us at this point, but stop and think of how WE were when we were at your level. Here is my back story, to give you some insight.

When I started taking lessons, I hadn't ever ridden a horse. I started on the lunge line and wasn't allowed off of it until my trainer knew I could stay out of the horse's mouth. Let me tell you, it took a few lessons a week for me to develop that kind of balance. And of course we weren't just working on me moving with the horse, but also how my legs draped down the sides, how I used my seat, and how my hands were positioned (I didn't have the reins, but I was expected to hold my hands as though I did.)

It was a BIG day when I was allowed to walk AND trot off the lunge line. Cantering came a few lessons after I was allowed off the lunge line.

So yeah, while you may feel your videos don't compare to how we are right now in our current area of riding, that does NOT mean we can't help you in your current area. We have ALL been there. I'm guessing very few people on here hopped on a horse and magically had the perfect balance. If you haven't, read a few other journals on here. You'll see a lot of riders asking for feedback, asking for help, and sharing their excitement. You can be confident and proud, without being cocky and arrogant. Written word is tough to decipher sometimes, so perhaps you don't mean to come across that way. But comments like "I won't fall because I won't allow myself to" will just cause people to back away and not wish to help you.


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## jenkat86

I never took formal lessons when I was a beginner. My friends and I worked at a barn cleaning stalls and at the end of the day we were allowed to grab a few of the owners horses and trail ride. 

I didn't learn how to ride. I learned how to hang on. 

The first time I ever loped we were trespassing on neighboring property. We knew what we were doing (shame on us) and we heard 4-wheelers getting closer and closer. I was last in line. The people in front of me took off on their horses, and mine took off after them...follow the leader. I remember my thumb being numb for almost a week because I had hung onto the saddle horn so hard. (We never did get caught!)

The first time I fell off I was sitting on my horse, who was standing next to a hitching rail, NOT MOVING. He shook. That was it. I popped right off.


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## greentree

You are lucky to have such long legs!! Some of us are perched up there with our legs sticking straight, like we are doing the Chinese splits!


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> You really should have expanded on that a bit :wink: but while you are still learning, you will be unbalanced a few times. It's just how you learn and grow.
> 
> I know you felt you couldn't compare to some of us at this point, but stop and think of how WE were when we were at your level. Here is my back story, to give you some insight.
> 
> When I started taking lessons, I hadn't ever ridden a horse. I started on the lunge line and wasn't allowed off of it until my trainer knew I could stay out of the horse's mouth. Let me tell you, it took a few lessons a week for me to develop that kind of balance. And of course we weren't just working on me moving with the horse, but also how my legs draped down the sides, how I used my seat, and how my hands were positioned (I didn't have the reins, but I was expected to hold my hands as though I did.)
> 
> It was a BIG day when I was allowed to walk AND trot off the lunge line. Cantering came a few lessons after I was allowed off the lunge line.
> 
> So yeah, while you may feel your videos don't compare to how we are right now in our current area of riding, that does NOT mean we can't help you in your current area. We have ALL been there. I'm guessing very few people on here hopped on a horse and magically had the perfect balance. If you haven't, read a few other journals on here. You'll see a lot of riders asking for feedback, asking for help, and sharing their excitement. You can be confident and proud, without being cocky and arrogant. Written word is tough to decipher sometimes, so perhaps you don't mean to come across that way. But comments like "I won't fall because I won't allow myself to" will just cause people to back away and not wish to help you.


Sorry, my apologies for not expanding on that.

Well I would love to share my riding videos, but I cant say Im doing this or that well because Im being compared to too high of expectations. Im not looking to be where a seasoned rider would be with many years of experience. 

Like my trainer keeps telling me, Ive been riding Fly for 7 weeks now. 7 weeks. Im just getting started. And I most likely will never have those expectations of me being as good as a seasoned rider with many years of experience. Why? Because I dont want to and at the end of the day I want to ride for fun and just be good enough to ride Fly. Thats all I want. Then when I get to that point, I want to expand into other areas like cowboy challenge, liberty, trail riding. This is where my interest lies. 

You have to remember, when I got Fly I had almost zero interest in riding so its taken a lot of time and riding to get my interest up in riding and having me see why you riding is essential. So Ive made a HUGE jump here. Riding has always been a 2nd interest for me when it comes to horses. Ive always had more interest in horsemanship. But now that I know where my two biggest interests lie (or 3), Cowboy challenge, liberty and trail riding, I see why you need to spend your time in the saddle to do a lot of that stuff.

Do you remember last year when I was even questioning on whether or not I was going to get a saddle for Fly? I was just going to get another bareback pad for her and plan on only riding her outside on trails. I had no interest in trotting her or the lope. Well thats the mentality I had at the time and showed just how little interest I had in riding at the time. But things have dramatically changed since then and that is all because my trainer has taught and shown me why you need to spend time in the saddle riding in the arena. And even though Im still not overly crazy about trotting Fly for 10mins straight doing circles, Im at least having more fun with it right now because I see the purpose behind it. Not just for her sake in making her bend better, but myself as well. Oh, and of course the group lessons really amp it up IMO in terms of making it even more fun. And this would explain why I enjoyed this past clinic last Spring where we had 6 riders in the arena at once doing circles, serpentines, change of directions, etc. It was fun! 

If you asked me 6 or 7 months ago if I would have found a clinic like that fun, I would have said no chance.

When I watch my videos today, do I see a noticeable improvement from my first couple rides on Fly? Yes I do and most importantly my trainer sees it as well. My hands are softer, Im more confident, things have started to feel natural in the saddle, Im more alert and aware, my timing is getting better and I think Fly is happier as well. Are my circles perfect? No, but theyre 100x better than when I first did them on Fly. And the most important thing, Im having fun and I have confidence in Fly because we have now built a rapport over the past 7 weeks that we never had before. A rapport that I had with the lesson mare when I was riding her before. And now I know why my trainer insisted right from the start that I spend all my time on Fly once I start riding her.


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## Tazzie

But Hoofpic, I don't really think anyone is trying to hold you to higher standards. What I've seen being told to you IS basic riding. You need a long, draping leg (which you ARE fortunate, as Greentree said, to have such long legs; I have short legs with FAT thighs that make it hard to have a nice, long leg). You need to sit up so you are in a better position if things happen. Too far forward, you could be dislodged with a buck. Too far back she could get you off with a rear. Upright, you'll give her a better understanding and you'll be able to sit deeper when the need calls for it. Your hands need to remain steady with a "soft" nature. Not all over the place, but you're not pulling on her. You're connected with her. Upright hands allow for your fingers to close around them and keep consistent contact with the reins, so you aren't changing how you communicate with her (and really, I struggle with "piano" hands too; irritates me to no end!)

No, you're circles won't be perfect, especially on a green horse. I get you don't want to do things like arena work, and that you prefer trails and such. But circles are a good way to help a horse gain their balance, to learn how to listen to your aids. You don't want to hit the trails, suddenly need to move sideways, and then find out your horse would rather move INTO your leg than AWAY.

None of us are expecting you to be able to head out and barrel race, or put in a winning dressage test, or clear cross country fences. Most of what I see is people offering how to help with your basic riding. We ALL get you want to trail ride. But the fact is, you are a green rider on a green horse. These people want you to be SAFE. If they didn't, they would ALL ignore this thread, and go about their day. Instead, they give you input on how to improve yourself as a rider. And since Fly is so green, you are also essentially her trainer. So try not to read as everyone attacking you. They aren't.


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## Hoofpic

The last lesson was pretty significant IMO because what my trainer harped on me about really sunk into my head. I know I need to lean back more and to do that, I need to overcome my minor fear of falling backwards on a horse. Am I more comfortable and at ease when trotting not completely leaned back? Yes and I need to get rid of it and overcome that. So this will be a big challenge for me because I dont like heights. Leaning back essentially makes you taller and higher up on a horse. I need to find that ease and comfort when fully leaned back on any horse. 

Once I started leaning back last week, I noticed immediate improvements in terms of how quickly I can get Fly to respond to ques. And the sooner I can get used to leaning back, my feet will naturally stay in the right place and never go too far back. Like my trainer said it, if you lean forward, your feet will automatically go back. If you lean back, vice versa. Its just how our body works.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> But Hoofpic, I don't really think anyone is trying to hold you to higher standards. What I've seen being told to you IS basic riding. You need a long, draping leg (which you ARE fortunate, as Greentree said, to have such long legs; I have short legs with FAT thighs that make it hard to have a nice, long leg). You need to sit up so you are in a better position if things happen. Too far forward, you could be dislodged with a buck. Too far back she could get you off with a rear. Upright, you'll give her a better understanding and you'll be able to sit deeper when the need calls for it. Your hands need to remain steady with a "soft" nature. Not all over the place, but you're not pulling on her. You're connected with her. Upright hands allow for your fingers to close around them and keep consistent contact with the reins, so you aren't changing how you communicate with her (and really, I struggle with "piano" hands too; irritates me to no end!)
> 
> No, you're circles won't be perfect, especially on a green horse. I get you don't want to do things like arena work, and that you prefer trails and such. But circles are a good way to help a horse gain their balance, to learn how to listen to your aids. You don't want to hit the trails, suddenly need to move sideways, and then find out your horse would rather move INTO your leg than AWAY.
> 
> None of us are expecting you to be able to head out and barrel race, or put in a winning dressage test, or clear cross country fences. Most of what I see is people offering how to help with your basic riding. We ALL get you want to trail ride. But the fact is, you are a green rider on a green horse. These people want you to be SAFE. If they didn't, they would ALL ignore this thread, and go about their day. Instead, they give you input on how to improve yourself as a rider. And since Fly is so green, you are also essentially her trainer. So try not to read as everyone attacking you. They aren't.


I understand that and Im thankful for all the advice given on here. I know some may not believe me, but Im just being honest about it.

Today I see why you need to spend time in the saddle in the arena. Im not debating on why I need to do it. I didnt see it before (many many months ago) but like I said, my trainer over the past many months has completely changed my mindset on riding as a whole. I know why it has to be done. Before I did not. I think the fact that I had so much fun from the clinic in the Spring was a big sign of it. Run that same clinic 6 months earlier and chances are, I dont even participate in it. And I cant tell you how much Im looking forward to the one in August. Im so excited like you wouldnt believe.

I just want to be able to say that I feel that Im improving in this or that area and acknowledge that Im making progress thats all. 

When I said that I can ride, I was just being honest. What I meant by that was that I am confident and feel that I am capable of riding. What I didnt mean was that I can ride flawlessly, or that Im a "really good rider", obviously there are holes and stuff that I need to work on and I acknowledge it. But I still do believe that I am capable of riding, but Im still very much learning so im in the beginner phase. Not once in the past 7 weeks, did I ever see myself in any other level outside of beginner.

Someone here got the impression that I know it all. I have no idea how they got that impression at all because I am fully acknowledging what I need to work on. I know that Im not a "really good" rider, but I do know that I am capable of riding. I just need to work out the kinks. And its just because Im confident in myself. I know my strengths and weaknesses and Im not trying to be arrogant at all.


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## Tazzie

Well, I can say you are not the only rider with a fear of heights. Heights and the fear of falling (in general; not off of a horse) are my two absolute biggest fears. I am one who if we go somewhere with a beautiful view, I can NOT look down or I feel physically sick and I can't move. It's a paralyzing fear. When I get on a horse, I just don't think about it.

I think working consistently with sitting more upright (just calling it "leaning back" isn't exactly correct as you don't want to actually be leaning back, but have a vertical line from head/shoulder/hip/heel) will help Fly out a lot, as you've seen. The leaning forward is like curling up in the fetal position, hoping and praying something bad won't happen to you while you are up there. You feel "safer" like absolutely nothing can hurt you there. But this is not effective riding. You aren't the only one to struggle with this. Flip through my journal. You'll see how after my accident I rode hunched forward, terrified my horse was going to dislodge me again. And could that be the fall that killed me? Should have seen my friend who made the mistake of hunching forward on her mare. She flung her head and gave my friend a black eye. Totally accidental, but if she had been sitting upright....

And yes, sitting upright will help your leg and seat alignment. I know you're new to all of this. And you've come a decent way in 7 weeks. You have more to go, but so does every single person on this forum. You are NOT alone in your journey as a horseback rider. We all just take different paths and different directions.


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## sarahfromsc

This well make you laugh hoofpic. At our barn we have shirts that say, "we fall off with pride". No one gets a shirt until the first fall. All falls after that a hash mark is placed on the back on the shirt.

After nine years I have 6 hash marks. One of those lovely dismounts that my horse decided I needed to make, I was mounting just started to get the off leg over the saddle and he spun 360. I came off at the 180. Another boarder has 54! It is funny to see the shirts on a trail ride.....LOLOLOL

I don't like to fall. It hurts and I no longer bounce as I once did.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Well, I can say you are not the only rider with a fear of heights. Heights and the fear of falling (in general; not off of a horse) are my two absolute biggest fears. I am one who if we go somewhere with a beautiful view, I can NOT look down or I feel physically sick and I can't move. It's a paralyzing fear. When I get on a horse, I just don't think about it.
> 
> I think working consistently with sitting more upright (just calling it "leaning back" isn't exactly correct as you don't want to actually be leaning back, but have a vertical line from head/shoulder/hip/heel) will help Fly out a lot, as you've seen. The leaning forward is like curling up in the fetal position, hoping and praying something bad won't happen to you while you are up there. You feel "safer" like absolutely nothing can hurt you there. But this is not effective riding. You aren't the only one to struggle with this. Flip through my journal. You'll see how after my accident I rode hunched forward, terrified my horse was going to dislodge me again. And could that be the fall that killed me? Should have seen my friend who made the mistake of hunching forward on her mare. She flung her head and gave my friend a black eye. Totally accidental, but if she had been sitting upright....
> 
> And yes, sitting upright will help your leg and seat alignment. I know you're new to all of this. And you've come a decent way in 7 weeks. You have more to go, but so does every single person on this forum. You are NOT alone in your journey as a horseback rider. We all just take different paths and different directions.


Thanks and that is why Im extremely motivated to overcome this fear on my own (and ASAP). The sooner I can get accustomed to sitting upright, the better for myself and Fly. And its a bit puzzling because I know this fear is whats holding me back. I have good balance in general just in terms of my overall body balance outside of the saddle, I just know I can get better in the saddle. But I need to stop worrying about falling backwards.

I know you technically dont "lean back" on a horse, and that you "sit vertifical, perfectly upright", but the reason why my trainer says "lean back" to me all the time is because she is exagerating situations and ques to me so that it sinks into my head quicker and easier. So if Im unintentionally leaning a bit forward, she will say "lean back, lean back, back, more, more" and I know exactly what she means by it. 

I try to watch her as much as I can when she rides her horses and it helps a lot because her body positioning is bang on. Not once does her upper body ever lean forward, even if she gets into trouble or her horse refuses to listen or is being a brat. Now, obviously I will never have positioning near as good as her but I just need to follow her logic thats all. 

If things get wild for me in the saddle, my safety spot for me is by leaning forward a bit. I need to get rid of that. I need to train my brain so that my safety spot is by remaining vertical. So its going to take a lot on my part to get confident with that and realize that I will fall forward a lot sooner than backwards. So by staying straight, I am doing a lot of preventative maintenance on my part and sending better ques to Fly as well.

And see that is why, if I do fall off a horse in my life time, it will be accidental and not a result from my error. You are right though, leaning back, you have a much lower chance in falling than leaning forward. I dont want to learn this the hard way. So Im just trying to prevent what I can for my own sake.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You are lucky to have such long legs!! Some of us are perched up there with our legs sticking straight, like we are doing the Chinese splits!


I do feel lucky and now people understand why I prefer to ride smaller horses than bigger ones. Because when I got Fly, I always got bugged that Im too big for her and asked why I dont go with a bigger horse. "15hh will suit you better" and silly jokes like "Your feet will be touching the ground" lol. It all comes down to my fear of heights and Im just much more comfortable on a smaller horse. Even on Fly, I still feel pretty high up because im tall. Going to a 15hh horse and its a noticable jump. Then going to 18hh and its a completely different experience. feels like you're on a dinosaurs back haha.

The 2nd time I rode a horse, the trainer at the time put me on a 18hh gelding on a 30ft lunge line and asked me to do a rising trot right away. We did that for about 45mins. Lets just say that, in that 45mins, I never once felt comfortable in the saddle mainly because of 1) How fast we were going and 2) how high up I was. It was high! I felt like I was on a crane especially since this boy had such a rocking trot as well. Plus factor in trying to do a rising trot right away (which at the time, I had no idea even how to go about it). It wasnt exactly a very rewarding experience, but I did ironically pull some positives from it. One is, I will never ride an 18hh (even 17hh) horse ever again, but at least I got to experience it and I think that alone is valuable.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Iif I do fall off a horse in my life time, it will be accidental and not a result from my error. You are right though, leaning back, you have a much lower chance in falling than leaning forward. I dont want to learn this the hard way. So Im just trying to prevent what I can for my own sake.


I simply cannot let this go, even though I have sworn off of this thread, and I know it is a journal, BUT.

It is not IF it is WHEN you fall off, and how bad and how hard, relax and accept that fact, live with it, it is inevitable.

Now as to leaning forward, come over here, ride Fergie, she will teach you to sit up PDQ, because if you curl up, as I still tend to do, she will spook or take off on you. I have to remember that upright and balanced is the safest you can be


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> This well make you laugh hoofpic. At our barn we have shirts that say, "we fall off with pride". No one gets a shirt until the first fall. All falls after that a hash mark is placed on the back on the shirt.
> 
> After nine years I have 6 hash marks. One of those lovely dismounts that my horse decided I needed to make, I was mounting just started to get the off leg over the saddle and he spun 360. I came off at the 180. Another boarder has 54! It is funny to see the shirts on a trail ride.....LOLOLOL
> 
> I don't like to fall. It hurts and I no longer bounce as I once did.


I did laugh at it, and not in a mean way. I think the shirts idea is brilliant.

A boarder has 54 falls? Wow that is a lot. 6 in nine years isnt too bad, but still nobody likes falling.

I know falling off hurts and the higher up you are, the more it hurts. Im not looking forward to it. Infact, it scares me.

Now, I know why my outside trainer has a fear falling as well, because she told me she has fallen off a horse many many times in her life.


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## tinyliny

the desire to curl forward when frightened is totally natural. we go into the "fetal position", which my trainer called "the fatal position". 
when the doo-doo hits the fan, it's very hard to NOT do it. it will, however, almost guarantee you will lose control of the horse and end up bailing off. just one of those things we have to train out of ourselves, over time.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I know falling off hurts and the higher up you are, the more it hurts. Im not looking forward to it. Infact, it scares me.


Not true, I have been worse hurt falling off a 14.2hh pony than from. 17.2 hh. Fell off the same horse twice in two weeks, first time we were cantering I got back on finished the ride, 2 weeks later was getting on when he blew, ended up in intensive care for a week, in hospital for a month.

I get fear of heights, but actually a tall guy like you would actually find it a lot easier to balance and feel secure on a 15.2hh stocky type horse than you do On Fly. Her small stature and your height just makes it a more difficult balancing act


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## egrogan

Golden Horse said:


> Not true, I have been worse hurt falling off a 14.2hh pony than from. 17.2 hh.


Totally agree with this- and come to think of it, my two worst falls have been from small horses/ponies. When I was getting back into riding in my early 30s, I was cantering a (mean) little Haflinger on a lunge, the saddle slipped a little and freaked her out, and all of a sudden I was flying off her back, hit my shoulder on the wall of the arena and my head on the ground when I finally untangled myself from the stirrups on the way off, sideways (and my instructor at the time had also had a bad wreck on that same mare, she bolted through the door of the indoor into the barn's aisleway, crashed into a set of tack lockers, scraping the instructor along a few of them before she finally came off. That horse hated being a lesson horse, and was pretty clear about it!). The other time, I was popping over teeny crossrails on a little quarter pony, she tripped, I lost my balance, and fell hitting my back on the jump, knocking the wind out of myself.

Some of my falls off of larger full sized horses have primarily been silly spooks where I wasn't paying enough attention and hit the arena sand. 

I agree with what everyone's said though, it's not _if _you fall but _when. _And it's also really true that you have to force yourself to get back on, as long as you're physically able to.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I have to remember that upright and balanced is the safest you can be


And thats what I need to keep telling myself.


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## Golden Horse

@egrogan mine was a Haffy as well


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## Hoofpic

OT, there is a heavy storm watch here. Upwards of 50mm in the city yikes. Im heading out tonight to the barn. Im wondering if it will be okay to blanket my mare. She hasnt been blanketed since she joined the herd. Im worried if her blanket gets destroyed or say a strap comes undone, it can become a safety hazard especially if they run and play.

Its too bad the herd only has a 2 horse shelter, wish it was a 4 horse one. Oh well.


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## Hoofpic

I know that no horses at the barn ever get blanketed and no one really believes a need for it. I had a chat with my BO the week I got to this barn last fall and he was saying that he doesnt believe in blanketing horses but if I want to, I just have to be there to take it off when needed etc (which is understandable). I blanketed her twice at the new barn, but this was when she was in the qaurentine paddock and was by herself and that paddock has no shelter (has a wind barrier but no shelter).

I know a big reason why I blanketed her last year at the old barn was because during the heavy storms where we had like 4 straight days of non stop rain (it was really depressing), Fly can at least wander out of her shelter when she wants without getting soaked and not be stuck in the shelter all day. I would think that its gotta be extremely boring for any horse to stand in a shelter all day cause its just pouring rain all day.

This is why I kinda wish the BO fed the horses in their shelters if it was pouring out, but I know that its not a big deal that he doesnt. Horses standing out in the rain to eat isnt the end of the world.


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## Prairie

Don't worry about blanketing your mare. She'll be fine in heavy rain since Mother Nature has blessed her with a coat that will shed water. 






Have your instructor work with you on how to fall safely and doing an emergency dismount so you are prepared when that oops moment happens.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Don't worry about blanketing your mare. She'll be fine in heavy rain since Mother Nature has blessed her with a coat that will shed water.


Okay. But last year during a storm she was shivering when I brought her in to dry her off. We had a few days where we had 15mm of rain everyday, that is a lot! The paddocks were swamps. It was a miserable week.

The past week here we've been getting rain everyday but only 1mm or so each day. One day we got about 5mm. The herd were all cuddled up around the shelter. But from what Ive noticed, even though its only a 2 horse shelter, theyre good about sharing and dont fight. Ive often seen it at the old barn where the one at the bottom of the pecking order would be the one having to stand out in the rain getting soaked. 

It seems with my mares herd, none of them like the rain. Once they feel drops coming down, they run for the shelter haha. Fly doesnt mind it as much, sometimes at the old barn she would stand out in the rain (as long as its not pouring).



> Have your instructor work with you on how to fall safely and doing an emergency dismount so you are prepared when that oops moment happens.


She taught me. I practice it every now and then.


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## Golden Horse

Don't blanket, she will be fine, she is young fit and healthy, a summer storm is fine. You don't have to worry until we start getting sleet/wet snow in the fall


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Not true, I have been worse hurt falling off a 14.2hh pony than from. 17.2 hh. Fell off the same horse twice in two weeks, first time we were cantering I got back on finished the ride, 2 weeks later was getting on when he blew, ended up in intensive care for a week, in hospital for a month.
> 
> I get fear of heights, but actually a tall guy like you would actually find it a lot easier to balance and feel secure on a 15.2hh stocky type horse than you do On Fly. Her small stature and your height just makes it a more difficult balancing act


Oh okay, I always thought it hurts more the bigger horse you are on.

The 15hh lesson mare is definitely easier to balance on, but over the past month Ive been getting more comfortable on Fly that I feel more comfortable on her. It was definitely a big change at first going from a 15hh to 14.2 but Ive gotten used to Fly. Plus shes a bit chubby so it gives me more to hold onto. 

My chiro called her fat..."shes a bit fat". I do agree that shes probably 50lbs overweight. But once her muscle keeps building, Im hoping she can slim down a bit. If I can get her to lose 20lbs Id be happy. Though I asked the BO, and he says shes not terribly overweight, nothing to worry about but she definitely could use more muscle upfront and Im accomplishing that by riding her.

If this winter proved anything, its that she definitely needs to be ridden all year round (or most of it) simply cause the hay she is on right now is top grade hay and horses at the barn easily pack on the weight if not worked. Some of the older horses get a 80% alfala/timothy mix but everyone else gets a timothy and about 30% alfalfa mix. At the old barn, she was on straw hay, it was very average quality. Heck at the old barn, she was never ridden (not even once) in the 3 months I was there and I fed her 4.5 flakes a day (2x2 + half in her hay net), with 1lb of grain everyday and she gained weight but not as quickly as she did when she got to the new barn.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Don't blanket, she will be fine, she is young fit and healthy, a summer storm is fine. You don't have to worry until we start getting sleet/wet snow in the fall


Okay I wont bother blanketing. Isnt freezing rain the same as wet snow? Cause I know a few years ago, my ex's mare was shivering to death on a day where we had freezing rain. My ex never blanketed her because she said even though she was shiverying, she didnt need to be blanketed.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> the desire to curl forward when frightened is totally natural. we go into the "fetal position", which my trainer called "the fatal position".
> when the doo-doo hits the fan, it's very hard to NOT do it. it will, however, almost guarantee you will lose control of the horse and end up bailing off. just one of those things we have to train out of ourselves, over time.


Yes, "fetal" position, thats what my trainer described it as. I will have to train myself mentally and by natural instinct to lean back whenever the doo doo hits the fan. 

If you are familiar with CBT (cognitive behavourial therapy), this would be the quickest and best way to retrain my brain for it. If I can retrain my brain mentally, i will do it physically. Ive done CBT for stuff when I was much younger when I went through depression, and OCD. Im very familiar with both as I used to have both. Its very effective and has worked for me.


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## jaydee

I've fallen off more small ponies than I have fallen off horses that were too big for me - though the really wide draft crosses and cobs are a challenge for shorter legged people like me. I do like a decent length of neck in front of me
Falling off incidents are just poorly executed flying dismounts


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## Golden Horse

jaydee said:


> Falling off incidents are just poorly executed flying dismounts



Or in my case mounts


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## Rainaisabelle

A fall will come when you least expect it ! Like when I fell off Roy last year and ate dirt. I fractured my radius, do you know what Roy was doing? 

Nothing he was standing waiting for me to mount. 

Accidents happen it's not 'if' it's 'when' and I guarantee you when it happens you won't know it's coming. You either get back on or walk away.


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## Hoofpic

I have some great news. I was brushing Fly tonight and noticed her topline and her back has more muscle. Quite noticably more than 8 weeks ago. This is fantastic!


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## Hoofpic

I dont know why Im struggling so much to find a new massage therapist. Am I just being too picky?

I've told you how my BO and trainer do not believe in equine massage and a big reason is that they feel these therapists lack the education. When you look up equine massage therapists, there are so many new ones, just individuals recently started up in the past couple years who took the course. I have looked into this course and its amazing how easy and quick it is for just anyone to take it and get a certificate from it. 

And this is why my trainer doesnt believe in equine massage cause she said that anyone can just take the course and they lack the knowledge and experience on horse anatomy that a vet would have. Now, whether my trainer brings up a good valid point about that, is up for debate. But I do question how legit and how qualified/good/skilled a newbie therapist is compared to say one who is older and has been doing it for many many years.

do you guys believe that you get what you pay for when it comes to equine massage?

My therapist before was great, but she left for europe last Dec and doesnt know when she will be back. She was in her late 30s Id say, she took the course and has only been doing massage for about 3 years but she did red light (not many therapists do) and Fly responds so well to it. Ive been trying to find someone who does red light but no luck so far. I miss her services cause she was really good and she taught me a lot.

But Im still on the hunt for a new one. I met one at the Mane Event a couple months ago, as I was sitting in on one of her lectures. She's really nice, but she just started up last year and she took the same course that my former therapist did (they know each other), but she has no reviews and she is really young (younger than me), this is the only thing holding me back from contacting her again. But she does have a college degree in biology, so that is definitely something worth noting.

Another option is I also could get back in touch with the lady who (she does massage) saddle fitted my mare like 4 months ago. She is older and has been doing massage for quite a while but she is not cheap. She does massage for horses AND people. Its quite interesting actually. 

In fact compared to everyone else, shes quite a bit more. Quite a bit more as in double the price compared to my previous therapist.

Im hoping to find someone within the next couple days as Fly is well overdue for a massage.


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## jaydee

Things like Equine massage are still quite new to the horse world and as with anything like that you'll find people that did some vague online course and no hands on classes at all. These treatments aren't cheap and though they're unlikely to do the sort of damage that a bad/unqualified chiropractor can do to a horse you might be spending money for basically nothing
I use someone that was recommended to me by my vet after one of my horses had overdeveloped muscles on one shoulder after an injury that took an age to 'heal' and I now have her here once a month to check over the horses and work on them 'as needed', a good therapist should be able to show you things you can do yourself in between sessions with them. 'My' lady also works on top competition horses in this area and travels to other areas like Florida and North Carolina to work on horses there - if someone is good they'll be in high demand so ask around the good barns in your area and see who people there use and get their reviews on them, ask for evidence of training and check up on the places they got their qualifications from


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## karliejaye

Just like with human massage therapists, there are good ones and bad ones. Unlike with human massage therapists, there is not as of yet any one certifying board (at least not in the US). This means that even if they tout themselves as being a "certified equine massage therapist" what that means varies widely. If you want some one who knows anatomy like the back of their hand and has gone through a truly stringent course work, I would look for folks educated through Equinology. I took their anatomy course, which is a pre-req for any of the hands on classes and it was thorough!


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## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Just like with human massage therapists, there are good ones and bad ones. Unlike with human massage therapists, there is not as of yet any one certifying board (at least not in the US). This means that even if they tout themselves as being a "certified equine massage therapist" what that means varies widely. If you want some one who knows anatomy like the back of their hand and has gone through a truly stringent course work, I would look for folks educated through Equinology. I took their anatomy course, which is a pre-req for any of the hands on classes and it was thorough!


Thanks. And that is why I want to make sure I find a good one. I think I got real lucky with the first one being so good and at such a good price (i think she undercharged). The first one I just randomly called her on on Kijiji lol. Risky yes, but I got lucky.

Equinolgogy. I dont think Ive seen a therapist yet with this course complete. But I will look out for it. 

EDIT: My error, this young lady that I met at the Mane Event a coupe months ago has completed an equinology course/program.


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## Hoofpic

I found a massage therapist, shes very qualified and is actually a equinology instructor as well. Now, how much is too much to pay per massage? She charges $100 per visit (45-60mins massage) + $10 travel fee. She is far, really far so I would have to book her when she comes out to my area (as she attends to other nearby barns from my barn), otherwise if I dont the travel fee is $35.

So $110 per massage. Do you guys have a limit?

Just to compare, my previous therapist was $65 per visit. But she had 2-3 years exp whereas this lady has 20. I saw the list of courses that she has taken and its really comprehensive.

I mean, I could easily go with the girl that I met a couple months ago at the Mane even (she charges $65-70 per visit), she only has 1-2 years exp vs 20 years this other lady has. Do you guys believe that you get what you pay for?


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## Golden Horse

I don't believe that you can rate someone's ability purely by the length of time they have been doing it. This is definitely an area where building a network of real people who live in your area would be most beneficial, there is nothing better than local recommendation. 

For the record I pay $125 for Chiro and Craniosacro massage she treats for hour and a half a session. Comes to our barn every 3 months or so, usually she is there for two days. Worth every penny when you have an older horse


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I don't believe that you can rate someone's ability purely by the length of time they have been doing it. This is definitely an area where building a network of real people who live in your area would be most beneficial, there is nothing better than local recommendation.
> 
> For the record I pay $125 for Chiro and Craniosacro massage she treats for hour and a half a session. Comes to our barn every 3 months or so, usually she is there for two days. Worth every penny when you have an older horse


Thanks. I called a couple of very qualified therapists and I booked my first appointment with the 2nd one I spoke with for next Tues afternoo. 

She is a bit cheaper ($90 vs $110), but has a more pricey ($75) first visit whereas the other one doesnt. She does the same as the first lady I spoke with, and sure she may not have 20 yrs exp doing this (she has 10 years), she does still have quite an extensive list for her education. Extras like Kinseology, red light, accupressure, Myofacial, etc but what made me choose her is the fact she literally lives down the street from my barn so she wont charge me a travel fee. 

Booking with her would more convenient for me seeing how I could bring her out whenevr I needed, whereas the other lady I would have slim pickings on when she can come out (since I have to wait for her to come out to my area to minimize the travel fee, plus she only comes out to my area maybe once a month).

THey know each other (just found out), not surprised. I hope the first lady isn't going to be upset with me. I feel a bit bad. I just told her a couple hours ago to let me know when she is coming out next so I can try to book a time with her. Then I ended up calling and going with another therapist. I hope she wont be upset. I need to think of what to say to her. But I do believe I have a valid reason for going with the 2nd one. Say something happens and I need to get a session in ASAP. I will have a much greater chance in having that happen with the 2nd therapist than the first, just because she is a lot closer, unless im willing to pay $35 for the travel fee (which on a $100 service, im not).


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## greentree

Why don't you learn to massage her yourself?


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## jaydee

I pay $90 a session per horse which also includes her giving me advice on things that I can do myself in between sessions, catching up on local gossip, talking about our own lives in general, talking about horsey stuff in general and putting the world to rights


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## egrogan

^^Sounds like $90 well spent, @jaydee


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## Rainaisabelle

I pay $75 for an equine sports massage therapist .. She goes until she's feels like she's done and then gives me exercises to do in between. She's also my trimmer lol so that helps. 

On Friday I am trying this new thing though that's called equivibe should be interesting.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Why don't you learn to massage her yourself?


I dont have the time to take the course. I mean I could, but its not where my real interest lies. Plus, even then I would still have a professional out to work on Fly until I finish courses. They've been down this road many times, know how to address specific issues, (not that Fly is having any right now, which is awesome).


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I pay $90 a session per horse which also includes her giving me advice on things that I can do myself in between sessions, catching up on local gossip, talking about our own lives in general, talking about horsey stuff in general and putting the world to rights


I just saw your last post right now. Anyways, my previous therapist taught and showed me how to do scretches on Fly, massages etc. It was really nice. She told me (and I did) to do them everyday to work out any tight spots. And hopefully, my new therapist will do the same.

Thats why I say my previous one was great and I got really lucky finding her. We always talked. Same goes with the farrier, I try not to talk too much, sometimes I feel that I should just leave them alone and let them do their job.

From having talked to the new one last night on the phone, I can tell she is the same. Im confident I found a good one.

Before I asked you guys, if you believe that you get what you pay for. Well I do think that does apply to a certain degree. Though mind you, my previous therapist I still feel she undercharged. But the main reason why I went with this new lady over the MUCH younger girl that I met a couple months ago at the Mane Event is experience and education and I was looking for someone who does red light as well. So I do think someone with more education and experience, does make them more versatile and worth the extra money.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I dont have the time to take the course. I mean I could, but its not where my real interest lies. Plus, even then I would still have a professional out to work on Fly until I finish courses. They've been down this road many times, know how to address specific issues, (not that Fly is having any right now, which is awesome).


You don't need to take any courses to do your own horse....


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I dont have the time to take the course. I mean I could, but its not where my real interest lies. Plus, even then I would still have a professional out to work on Fly until I finish courses. They've been down this road many times, know how to address specific issues, (not that Fly is having any right now, which is awesome).





Hoofpic said:


> Anyways, my previous therapist taught and showed me how to do scretches on Fly, massages etc. It was really nice. She told me (and I did) to do them everyday to work out any tight spots.


Far be it for me to say save your money, and it is great that you care for Fly so much, but at her age and her level of work she really shouldn't be having issues.

Your two statements there......you don't NEED to do a course because you have been shown what to do, if you did them every day then Fly probably would not need a professional.

Fergie is 14 years old, she is carrying a heavy rider, she usually gets done twice a year. She had an accident a couple of months back, so she is on a 3 month schedule until she is back where she should be.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You don't need to take any courses to do your own horse....


I will give an example. Say a horse goes lame. Its better to have a professional to be able to diagnosis and treat simply cause I truly do believe you need to be good with your hands and also you need to know horse anatomy etc. 

I still think professional massage is beneficial.


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## Golden Horse

If a horse goes lame you call the vet, not a therapist! 

I'm a great believer in massage and Chiropractic, but, especially with a young horse, if there is lameness, pain any worries start with the vet, get a diagnosis and decide treatment from there.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Far be it for me to say save your money, and it is great that you care for Fly so much, but at her age and her level of work she really shouldn't be having issues.
> 
> Your two statements there......you don't NEED to do a course because you have been shown what to do, if you did them every day then Fly probably would not need a professional.
> 
> Fergie is 14 years old, she is carrying a heavy rider, she usually gets done twice a year. She had an accident a couple of months back, so she is on a 3 month schedule until she is back where she should be.


I know Fly probably doesnt need massage therapy but its just a nice treat for her. Maintanence is how the therapists describe it. She is still growing and I want her to always feel the best all the time when worked. Just like with massage for us. Sure we dont need it but its nice to have and always makes you feel better afterwards.


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## Hoofpic

How was my ride from yesterday? Are my hands better? Positioned right? I hope so.

This time I took her down the driveway twice. She doesnt like the driveway but she did good.


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## Prairie

Even our sports medicine vet doesn't normally recommend either chiropractic or massage therapy for younger horses and he's also an equine chiropractor! For lameness, it depends why and where the horse is lame----there is no one "pill" cures all. For example when our gelding came up lame after a hoof abscess and then picking up a nail, the sports medicine vet discussed it with me over the phone, felt it wouldn't be beneficial for him to physically see him, and recommended a Back On Track sheet. 20 minutes after wearing the BOT sheet the first time, that horse went from 3 legged lame to happily doing a running walk--over the next few days we worked up to him wearing the sheet longer. By the end of a week of treatments, he was no longer sore anyplace that the local vet could pick up. 


Your mare is not working very hard, is out in a herd where she can move around at will and work out the kinks herself, and is in the prime of life-----she should not need routine massage or chiro treatment unless she's injured and a vet recommends it. The best for any horse, even the older ones, is riding correctly and a good conditioning program so their muscles, tendons, and ligaments can flex easily to perform the work required.


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## Prairie

On your hands, do you really want a critique or just pats on the back? You never give her release when she complies with your request to whoa nor do you "open the front door" by releasing your hands when you ask for the walk. She's totally confused by what you want.


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## Rainaisabelle

Horse being lame and a massage is apples and oranges ..

Running your hands along your horse rhythmically is a massage ! My horse likes it when you massage his hamstrings. He's never been sore on his hamstrings he just likes it. 

If a horse is off but not necessarily lame I would consider a chiro but if they were just outright lame I would be calling my vet.


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## egrogan

I have a hard time really telling anything from that angle, except that you had a pretty day to ride  

I watched about 1/3 of the video. The few shots of your hands, and when I can see your hands via your shadow, seem to suggest that your hands are a little high and somewhat rigid, not following the motion but sort of "locked in place." Around the 6 minute mark, I think you ask for a halt and maybe some kind of turn, and watching the shadow gives the impression that your hands are very high and you're pulling back hard while letting your upper body come forward. She looks pretty unhappy with the abruptness of it. But again, who knows from this angle, I'm not really sure what you were doing there. ETA: I just saw @Praire's post, I think we were seeing the same thing about not giving a release or encouraging the forward motion once you're ready to walk again.

Fly really does look like an exceptionally nice youngster- she seems interested in her surroundings but takes everything in stride and seems very willing to go where you want her to with a fairly steady rhythm. She seems to give the side-eye to a few things you pass, but doesn't balk or refuse or get too bothered by what she sees. I'd love to take her out on a ride!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Prairie said:


> On your hands, do you really want a critique or just pats on the back? You never give her release when she complies with your request to whoa nor do you "open the front door" by releasing your hands when you ask for the walk. She's totally confused by what you want.


I really wish I could like this about a million times!! :loveshower:

Also, what makes you think she doesn't like the driveway? She seemed happy and relaxed to be going down it, from what I could see. :shrug:


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## Golden Horse

I have only watched 2:30 mins of your video, and I can hear my trainer yelling in my head, "stop looking at your horse" not sure if the Angie between your eyes and your camera makes a difference, but on that evidence I would say ditch the camera and practice looking up and into the distance. Make friends with other boarders, a 2 or 3 minute video taken by someone watching you is worth far more for people to critique you than 15 minutes of a helmet cam. Remember lots of people here have busy lives, shorter representative videos work better.

As to your hands, what I can see, kind of far apart, and I agree with @Prairie, Fly had no idea what you want when you are asking her to whoa, you never seemed to really mean it, or reward it when you got it.

Again hard to give useful advice just from a helmet cam, riding is not about hands in isolation, although sometimes they are the main focus, it is about the whole body. If you have your legs on asking her to go, while trying to ask her to whoa, we can't see that.


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## tinyliny

watched just three short snatches of video. yes, you are not giving her the release she needs. 
you are HOLDING her , all the time. you are driving her as if she were a car, wherein you need to hold the steering wheel all the time. 

instead, pick up the rein (more lifting than pulling back) , apply your cue, when she complies, and doesn't have to be a full compliance, just her giving a try, then RELEASE. enough so you can see a drape in the rein, and the rein loose enough to wobble back and forth as she walk. when she is walking, and all is well, and she's just moving her head around to check out her environment, let the reins be loose enough to wobble. 

learn how to shorten and lengthen your reins quickly so you'll feel confident to let them drape loosely most of the time.

Fly is just about the nicest little horse you'll ever find. you won the lottery there.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> If a horse goes lame you call the vet, not a therapist!
> 
> I'm a great believer in massage and Chiropractic, but, especially with a young horse, if there is lameness, pain any worries start with the vet, get a diagnosis and decide treatment from there.


I did that last June when I got her. A few days after at the new barn, she was lame (very minor, 1/5 according to the vet). She wasn't lame when I bought her. The first thing I did was call my vet. Got her out the next day, I told her it was an emergency, she said to get some massage work on her, so I did that right away. Had a massage therapist out the next day.

IMO, massage therapy is one of the best remedies for lame horses or any horse with sore spots, tightness, stiffness.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Even our sports medicine vet doesn't normally recommend either chiropractic or massage therapy for younger horses and he's also an equine chiropractor! For lameness, it depends why and where the horse is lame----there is no one "pill" cures all. For example when our gelding came up lame after a hoof abscess and then picking up a nail, the sports medicine vet discussed it with me over the phone, felt it wouldn't be beneficial for him to physically see him, and recommended a Back On Track sheet. 20 minutes after wearing the BOT sheet the first time, that horse went from 3 legged lame to happily doing a running walk--over the next few days we worked up to him wearing the sheet longer. By the end of a week of treatments, he was no longer sore anyplace that the local vet could pick up.
> 
> 
> Your mare is not working very hard, is out in a herd where she can move around at will and work out the kinks herself, and is in the prime of life-----she should not need routine massage or chiro treatment unless she's injured and a vet recommends it. The best for any horse, even the older ones, is riding correctly and a good conditioning program so their muscles, tendons, and ligaments can flex easily to perform the work required.


I only get my chiro out if Fly is telling me signs of sore spots or owies. Otherwise, you are right, I would never view chiro as a rountine thing. I do think though that even with a healthy horse and light work, stuff like their poll will go out over time, time and time again, just because its not possible to keep them aligned. They play, they bite each other, injure themselves so a horse will need some kind of adjustment sooner or later. The good news is that Fly most likely wont need very many, so thats good on my wallet.

But massage I see it as a good routine maintenance thing. I wouldnt be doing it often, maybe once every few months so its not going to be too costly for me. Does Fly need massage? No. But it doesnt hurt either and massage will still make any horse feel better after.


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## jenkat86

What does 1/5 lame mean?

Severity level one out of five?


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I have a hard time really telling anything from that angle, except that you had a pretty day to ride
> 
> I watched about 1/3 of the video. The few shots of your hands, and when I can see your hands via your shadow, seem to suggest that your hands are a little high and somewhat rigid, not following the motion but sort of "locked in place." Around the 6 minute mark, I think you ask for a halt and maybe some kind of turn, and watching the shadow gives the impression that your hands are very high and you're pulling back hard while letting your upper body come forward. She looks pretty unhappy with the abruptness of it. But again, who knows from this angle, I'm not really sure what you were doing there. ETA: I just saw @Praire's post, I think we were seeing the same thing about not giving a release or encouraging the forward motion once you're ready to walk again.
> 
> Fly really does look like an exceptionally nice youngster- she seems interested in her surroundings but takes everything in stride and seems very willing to go where you want her to with a fairly steady rhythm. She seems to give the side-eye to a few things you pass, but doesn't balk or refuse or get too bothered by what she sees. I'd love to take her out on a ride!


Thanks. Yes, she is (as many have said too), a VERY CURIOUS horse. Remember, she used to live out in the forest before and most of her riding from her previous owner was all done on trails. Up until I bought her, she had never even seen or been in an arena or roundpen of any kind.

The camera angle isnt the best and I think isnt giving an accurate idea of my hands. The reason I say this is because, since I am tall and I sit high up on Fly. My camera (on my helmet) will obviously sit higher up as well from Flys body. So for me to get a view of up ahead to where we are going, as well as Flys ears and part of my hands, the angle that the camera sits at will be more steep than say someone like a kid sitting on Fly and then the camera will be lower so they will be able to have a more horizontal angle, which as a result would give you a much more realistic view. I hope that makes sense.

My head was forward, but like I said, because my camera has to be at a steeper angle, it gives the impression that my head is lower than it really is.

You guys are right though. I need to give release on the reins as soon as she walks on (from a halt).

As for me holding onto the reins too tight. Im not sure if i am or not. Trainer says Im not (ive asked her before). This is coming from someone (me obviously) who when I first started riding I had the reins way too loose and didnt pull back enough.


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## Rainaisabelle

Yes I believe it's graded by severity 

Grading the Lameness

Grade 1.

The lameness is not recognizable at the walk, but is evident at the trot. Usually, with a forelimb lameness, the horse's head drops down when the sound foot lands and raises up to its regular height when the affected side lands. There may be an asymmetry in the gluteal rise with hind limb lameness. There also may be an audible difference between the landing of the sound foot versus the lame foot (i.e. the horse lands with less weight on the lame foot). Grade 1 lameness' are most typical in chronic, nonprogressive diseases.



Grade 2.

The lameness is barely perceptible in the walk, and very apparent at the trot. Head movements, although not often visible at the walk, become obvious at the trot, with some head and neck lifting as the lame foot hits the ground. This is an attempt to reduce the weight bearing on the affected limb. 

Grade 3.

The lameness is apparent at both the walk and trot. Head and neck lifting are obvious with the forelimb lameness and with a hind limb lameness, head nodding is apparent when the opposite forelimb hits the ground.

Grade 4.

With this degree of lameness, the horse will not place the foot completely flat during weight bearing. They will be reluctant to jog.

Grade 5.

This is a nonweight-bearing lameness. This is often associated with fractures, subsolar abscesses, severe tendonitis, and septic arthritis.


This is the lameness scale thing I found but I believe it can be subjective.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> What does 1/5 lame mean?
> 
> Severity level one out of five?


Yes, severity, she said was 1 out of 5. So sutle that it only showed when lunging her at a trot, bending to her left. Otherwise a walk, you couldnt see it.

Two massage with red light sessions in 10 days and she was completely healed. Vet came back out (she had to come do vacs anyways) and said she was a completely different horse.

I have to ask...can a lame horse heal by not going anything at all? I feel bad for the lesson mare at my barn. She is still lame from what I see (its noticable at a walk). Obviously shes having time off being ridden. But what are the risks you take if you dont address the lamenss through either massage, red light, chiro or whatever the vet suggests?


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> IMO, massage therapy is one of the best remedies for lame horses or any horse with sore spots, tightness, stiffness.


Depends WHY they are lame though, that is why the vet is an important first step, unless you are able to pinpoint the issue yourself.

Tightness and stiffness respond to massage, but you also have to know why they are tight and stiff, so if your horse has a chipped bone a massage therapist is gong to do you no good at all. How many types of lameness have you seen, learned about, observed, not many yet, just keep an open mind.


Just a point to think about...this


> A few days after at the new barn, she was lame (very minor, 1/5 according to the vet). She wasn't lame when I bought her. The first thing I did was call my vet. Got her out the next day, I told her it was an emergency,


will not endear you to a vet, a very minor 1/5 type lameness is not an emergency......There is a difference between emergency and minor lameness........it is kind of important to distinguish between them. I have things I wait and see, things I call and discuss, things I will ask him to drop by if he is in the area. Once and once only (because I have been incredibly lucky) have I called him and said EMERGENCY, and that was a colic, I think he was on the way before I put the phone down. 

You will learn these things over time, but remember the little boy who cried wolf? If you always call it urgent or an emergency the vet may not respond quickly enough when it is a real emergency.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I have to ask...can a lame horse heal by not going anything at all? I feel bad for the lesson mare at my barn. She is still lame from what I see (its noticable at a walk). Obviously shes having time off being ridden. But what are the risks you take if you dont address the lamenss through either massage, red light, chiro or whatever the vet suggests?


Depends why they are lame, rest and pain relief can fix some things, same as for people.....again massage is not a magic cure for every lameness. For most of my riding life there were no such things as massage, red light, or chiro, only bute, box rest, remedial shoeing, stretches and yeah that was about it.....


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> watched just three short snatches of video. yes, you are not giving her the release she needs.
> you are HOLDING her , all the time. you are driving her as if she were a car, wherein you need to hold the steering wheel all the time.
> 
> instead, pick up the rein (more lifting than pulling back) , apply your cue, when she complies, and doesn't have to be a full compliance, just her giving a try, then RELEASE. enough so you can see a drape in the rein, and the rein loose enough to wobble back and forth as she walk. when she is walking, and all is well, and she's just moving her head around to check out her environment, let the reins be loose enough to wobble.
> 
> learn how to shorten and lengthen your reins quickly so you'll feel confident to let them drape loosely most of the time.
> 
> Fly is just about the nicest little horse you'll ever find. you won the lottery there.


Thanks. I will have to make it a habit of releasing the reins right away when she complies. But if I say WOAH and she doesnt halt, then I dont release the reins until she does so.

Ive been trying to get quicker at releasing and eating up slack on the reins but its not easy thats forsure. Obviously with having 10ft reins its going to be harder than 8ft ones. Maybe I can practice this on my own time? I find releasing the reins a lot easier, I just release a bit of my pressure in my hands. But then eating up the slack (and when you need to do it quickly) is tougher.

You are right though, if she is good, I should be riding her around with loose reins. I didnt know this. I always thought that you shouldnt do this because in case something happens, you dont have to worry about eating up all the slack in your reins.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> takes everything in stride


Thats exactly how the previous owner described her to me. She said she is brave and will take everything in stride. Once she is shown the way, she will try her best for you. And Ive been seeing signs of this over the past month. Shes a good mare. Once she told me this, I was capitivated and very interesting in buying her.

Previous owner had her over bridges, creeks, and she said even though she was new to it all, she just went with the flow and followed through.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I will have to make it a habit of releasing the reins right away when she complies. But if I say WOAH and she doesnt halt, then I dont release the reins until she does so.
> 
> Ive been trying to get quicker at releasing and eating up slack on the reins but its not easy thats forsure. Obviously with having 10ft reins its going to be harder than 8ft ones. Maybe I can practice this on my own time? I find releasing the reins a lot easier, I just release a bit of my pressure in my hands. But then eating up the slack (and when you need to do it quickly) is tougher.
> 
> You are right though, if she is good, I should be riding her around with loose reins. I didnt know this. I always thought that you shouldnt do this because in case something happens, you dont have to worry about eating up all the slack in your reins.



You're approach to taking up and releasing the reins is wrong----that's why you need to develop an elastic elbow. The movement of the elbow combined with just a small amount of rein is what you need---it's not a lot amount of rein. The length of rein has nothing to do with the art of pressure and release at the level you are now riding---all that length at this point is to let you sit up vertically and have enough rein to tighten and release the amount of pressure on the horse's mouth.


If I'm riding western, my reins are draped so the mare doesn't feel any pressure at all from my hands----you'll eventually learn how to use seat, leg, core, and weight to control the horse and that the reins are merely to refine the line of communication, and that they are not the steering and brakes. You dream of doing Liberty, but will learn that riding, done correctly, is done at liberty too using your body, not your hands, to control the horse.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I have to ask...can a lame horse heal by not going anything at all? I feel bad for the lesson mare at my barn. She is still lame from what I see (its noticable at a walk). Obviously shes having time off being ridden. But what are the risks you take if you dont address the lamenss through either massage, red light, chiro or whatever the vet suggests?


Like others have said, it depends on the lameness. 

Massage, red light, chiro, aromatherapy...all that "compliments" vet care. You should always take the vet's suggestion first.


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## Hoofpic




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## jenkat86

Nice pictures. One thing that stands out to me is how relaxed you and the horse look.


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## karliejaye

Regarding correct position: yes, your hands at a base level are in the "right position" in that your thumbs are up/knuckles facing each other. However, a correct position is not static. It moves, it adjusts, it flows with the horse. It will come with time (correct position AND flow). But if I had my druthers, I would rather see a learning rider flow with a few flaws in position than a perfect position that is rigid and "stuck". 


Remember (everyone, hoofpic, _and_ followers) Rome wasn't built in a day.

@*Hoofpic*, is there a story to go with those pictures? Looks like a nice relaxed horse and handler.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I really wish I could like this about a million times!! :loveshower:
> 
> Also, what makes you think she doesn't like the driveway? She seemed happy and relaxed to be going down it, from what I could see. :shrug:


Fly is always very reactive going through the driveway, just like she is when going through the foresty area of the barn with all the big trees and bushes. She is always looking back and fourth.

I think having goats and dogs are the barn, and two mini donkeys as well makes her reactive too but she has learn to get used to them. Its a nice mix of all the horses at the barn to get used to smaller animals that can be anyplace, anytime.


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## karliejaye

Hoofpic said:


> Fly is always very reactive going through the driveway, just like she is when going through the foresty area of the barn with all the big trees and bushes. She is always looking back and fourth.


Looking at things/looking around =/= reactive. Looking = observing. My little appy is the least reactive/spooky horse I know, but he is constantly looking around, because he is interested in his surroundings. 
A horse that is reactive may or may not look about, but the difference is they react without thinking. Actually in my experience, the most reactive horses I have worked with don't look around much. They get startled because they are unaware and without thinking, they spin, or bolt, or buck, or cow kick. 


I know, a "looky" horse can make some riders nervous, but try not to assume she is being reactive when it appears she is just interested. To keep your nerves from escalating, you can glance over where she's looking, laugh, and say, "Yeah, Fly, that's ____Mountain over in the distance. Someday we'll ride up that." The talking isn't for her, it's for you.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Depends WHY they are lame though, that is why the vet is an important first step, unless you are able to pinpoint the issue yourself.
> 
> Tightness and stiffness respond to massage, but you also have to know why they are tight and stiff, so if your horse has a chipped bone a massage therapist is gong to do you no good at all. How many types of lameness have you seen, learned about, observed, not many yet, just keep an open mind.
> 
> 
> Just a point to think about...this
> 
> 
> will not endear you to a vet, a very minor 1/5 type lameness is not an emergency......There is a difference between emergency and minor lameness........it is kind of important to distinguish between them. I have things I wait and see, things I call and discuss, things I will ask him to drop by if he is in the area. Once and once only (because I have been incredibly lucky) have I called him and said EMERGENCY, and that was a colic, I think he was on the way before I put the phone down.
> 
> You will learn these things over time, but remember the little boy who cried wolf? If you always call it urgent or an emergency the vet may not respond quickly enough when it is a real emergency.


Right now, I only know of one kind of lameness and as time goes on I will learn about others. And yes that is why the vet is the first person to contact so they can diagnose with the kind of lameness it is.

When Fly was lame last June, I was sad and depressed. I had to help her ASAP. I dont like seeing any horse like that. Its hard to me to watch.

I know other boarders and the barn helper at the time, were all telling me to give it time before calling a vet. But I didnt listen to them because I dont like to wait on stuff like that. Of course at this time, I was still completely new to the term lameness and I was just learning about it. If it wasnt for one of the nice boarders there telling me that she noticed Fly is lame, I wouldnt have noticed it myself. So I owe it all to her.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Fly is always very reactive going through the driveway, just like she is when going through the foresty area of the barn with all the big trees and bushes. She is always looking back and fourth.


You need to learn the difference between reactive and attentive.

Attentive is often a good thing, means that things wont take her by surprise. Fly is attentive, she looks she sees, she is relaxed she ignores it.

Reactive is my mare, head up, nostrils flared teleporting to one side, walking side ways, stopping and spinning......believe me Fly IS NOT reactive......if she was you would be on your butt on the ground in double quick time.......


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, your mare is not being reactive by looking around at the surroundings. You need to remember that horses are prey so if they aren't aware of what is happening in their vicinity, they become someone's dinner. Reactive is fully flared up with huge eyes, head up, ears perked directly ahead, and acting like a fire breathing dragon, sort of like my mare will get if she senses a rattlesnake or wild boar on the trail ahead of us-----she's merely warning me that danger lies ahead, not being bad or disrespectful. A horse who is looky is only doing what nature intended---keeping an eye out for those horse eating monsters. That's not being reactive at all.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> You're approach to taking up and releasing the reins is wrong----that's why you need to develop an elastic elbow. The movement of the elbow combined with just a small amount of rein is what you need---it's not a lot amount of rein. The length of rein has nothing to do with the art of pressure and release at the level you are now riding---all that length at this point is to let you sit up vertically and have enough rein to tighten and release the amount of pressure on the horse's mouth.
> 
> 
> If I'm riding western, my reins are draped so the mare doesn't feel any pressure at all from my hands----you'll eventually learn how to use seat, leg, core, and weight to control the horse and that the reins are merely to refine the line of communication, and that they are not the steering and brakes. You dream of doing Liberty, but will learn that riding, done correctly, is done at liberty too using your body, not your hands, to control the horse.


I have started to use elastic elbows. I keep them a lot looser and when she moves her head forward or lowers her head, I dont shoot forward, just my arms go with her. I found doing this at a walk really helped me. I know it doesnt look like I have elastic elbows in the video, but Im starting to get it.

When you say you have your reins drapped down when you ride western, do they form a happy face?


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## Rainaisabelle

I really urge you to look on some of the journals on here where the OP rides dressage. Dressage is the basis for everything, watch how they ride and watch how everything flows.


(Note: not to say that all the other disciplines don't have that, I think dressage is easier to see though)


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## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Looking at things/looking around =/= reactive. Looking = observing. My little appy is the least reactive/spooky horse I know, but he is constantly looking around, because he is interested in his surroundings.
> A horse that is reactive may or may not look about, but the difference is they react without thinking. Actually in my experience, the most reactive horses I have worked with don't look around much. They get startled because they are unaware and without thinking, they spin, or bolt, or buck, or cow kick.
> 
> 
> I know, a "looky" horse can make some riders nervous, but try not to assume she is being reactive when it appears she is just interested. To keep your nerves from escalating, you can glance over where she's looking, laugh, and say, "Yeah, Fly, that's ____Mountain over in the distance. Someday we'll ride up that." The talking isn't for her, it's for you.


Ok, so she is just a curious mare thats all.:

The good news is that her looking around doesnt make me nervous at all. If anything it does bother me a slight bit because it tells me that she is not 100% focused on me.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> You need to learn the difference between reactive and attentive.
> 
> Attentive is often a good thing, means that things wont take her by surprise. Fly is attentive, she looks she sees, she is relaxed she ignores it.
> 
> Reactive is my mare, head up, nostrils flared teleporting to one side, walking side ways, stopping and spinning......believe me Fly IS NOT reactive......if she was you would be on your butt on the ground in double quick time.......


thanks. Yes she is attentive, not reactive. Which Im guessing an attentive horse is easier to handle and probably more suited for a beginner?

I will say though, that there have been times where the BOs dogs would jump out of nowhere and it totally surprised Fly.


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## karliejaye

Hoofpic said:


> I will say though, that there have been times where the BOs dogs would jump out of nowhere and it totally surprised Fly.




That's good. It means (1) she's a horse and (2) she's alive. :wink:


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, your mare is not being reactive by looking around at the surroundings. You need to remember that horses are prey so if they aren't aware of what is happening in their vicinity, they become someone's dinner. Reactive is fully flared up with huge eyes, head up, ears perked directly ahead, and acting like a fire breathing dragon, sort of like my mare will get if she senses a rattlesnake or wild boar on the trail ahead of us-----she's merely warning me that danger lies ahead, not being bad or disrespectful. A horse who is looky is only doing what nature intended---keeping an eye out for those horse eating monsters. That's not being reactive at all.


Thanks. But you see some of these young horses get ridden out on the trail or be out in some new environment and they dont look around at all because their handler is with them. They are calm and a lot of the times have their head lowered.

Isnt a looky horse a sign of one who doesnt respect their handler?


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I have started to use elastic elbows. I keep them a lot looser and when she moves her head forward or lowers her head, I dont shoot forward, just my arms go with her. I found doing this at a walk really helped me. I know it doesnt look like I have elastic elbows in the video, but Im starting to get it.
> 
> When you say you have your reins drapped down when you ride western, do they form a happy face?


It was very obvious in that video that you do NOT have elastic elbows---looser elbows are not elastic elbows. An elastic elbow has a give and take to it so that the forearm and hand(s) holding the reins move the same distance as the horse's bobbing head. That elastic elbow also permits you to release and/or take up rein with out physically using your fingers to let it go or reel it in. You also have a death grip on the reins---you need to relax your fingers so they can "feel" her movement through the reins.


LOL, I guess you could say they reins make a "happy face". but the correct terminology is a draped rein-----pull up some videos of Western Pleasure and Reining classes in shows and watch the rider's hand and use of reins--- the movement is soft and almost invisible. You'll also see the draped rein and what an elastic elbow looks like in motion.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. But you see some of these young horses get ridden out on the trail or be out in some new environment and they dont look around at all because their handler is with them. They are calm and a lot of the times have their head lowered.
> 
> Isnt a looky horse a sign of one who doesnt respect their handler?



As a trail rider, I expect my mare to on alert for danger just like I am and that means she's looking around and is aware of her environment using her superior senses. On the trails we ride, it takes teamwork between horse and rider to stay safe and that means being in tune with each other, other riders and horses, and what is happening around you. 


My mare may appear to not be looking around to a novice, but her ears tell me differently---as long as she has one cocked back to me, she's being respectful and staying focused on my cues. If both ears go forward, I know she's picked up some potential danger and will just let her figure out if it's something I need to worry about too. If her head goes down and an ear is cocked back to me, I know we're safe, but if she becomes a little snorty and tenses up, I know to listen to what she's saying and pay attention. She saved my butt too many times for me to ever doubt her warnings. And that mare is certainly not being disrespectful---she keeping both of us safe!


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> It was very obvious in that video that you do NOT have elastic elbows---looser elbows are not elastic elbows. An elastic elbow has a give and take to it so that the forearm and hand(s) holding the reins move the same distance as the horse's bobbing head. That elastic elbow also permits you to release and/or take up rein with out physically using your fingers to let it go or reel it in. You also have a death grip on the reins---you need to relax your fingers so they can "feel" her movement through the reins.


So if Fly lowers her head say 3", then both my hands move the same amount? I do not have the elastic elbows down yet but Im a lot better than before. Remember, before I would have my hands and elbows locked on as if they were in concreate. 

How do I relax my fingers? I dont mean to have a death grip (I didnt think I did), I just was taught to hold onto them firmly. Is it any different because I was outside? Because my trainer has said to be before (when riding in the arena) to hold my reins more securely because if say, if she was to bolt off, I would immediate control of the reins.

PS, before I used to hold onto the reins too casually. For example, end of the finger tips, my hand isnt closed on the rein etc.



> LOL, I guess you could say they reins make a "happy face". but the correct terminology is a draped rein-----pull up some videos of Western Pleasure and Reining classes in shows and watch the rider's hand and use of reins--- the movement is soft and almost invisible. You'll also see the draped rein and what an elastic elbow looks like in motion.


Ok ill check out videos of Western pleasure and reining classes. Thanks


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Looking back and forth isn't reactive. That's intent and curious. Reactive is spooking constantly, bolting, spinning, sweating, prancing, snorting, trying to pull the reins out of your hands. :icon_rolleyes:


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. But you see some of these young horses get ridden out on the trail or be out in some new environment and they dont look around at all because their handler is with them. They are calm and a lot of the times have their head lowered.
> 
> Isnt a looky horse a sign of one who doesnt respect their handler?


Remember about 58734895734958 pages back when we were all talking about wet saddle pads? Those young horses you speak of are "quiet" because of that and a combination of other things. Work makes a quiet horse. 

I always allow my horse to look around. She needs to be just as aware of her surroundings as I am. I set a line, and I don't allow her to cross that line. For example, if someone rides up next to us, she is allowed to look but she is NOT allowed to sniff and pin her ears and all that.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hold your reins like you're holding a child's hands when crossing the street


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> So if Fly lowers her head say 3", then both my hands move the same amount? I do not have the elastic elbows down yet but Im a lot better than before. Remember, before I would have my hands and elbows locked on as if they were in concreate.
> 
> How do I relax my fingers? I dont mean to have a death grip (I didnt think I did), I just was taught to hold onto them firmly. Is it any different because I was outside? Because my trainer has said to be before (when riding in the arena) to hold my reins more securely because if say, if she was to bolt off, I would immediate control of the reins.
> 
> PS, before I used to hold onto the reins too casually. For example, end of the finger tips, my hand isnt closed on the rein etc.


Hoofpic, on your next lesson you should have an "egg" lesson. Have your trainer lead Fly with the lead rope while you are riding and hold a spoon in each hand. On the spoon, place an egg. Have her to small circles, serpentines, backing... Your goal of the whole lesson is to not drop the eggs. 

By the end of the lesson you will understand "feel."

You are making riding too analytical. You cannot think your way through riding. You have to feel your way through it.


----------



## Prairie

Ah, the old spoon race----good suggestion to under "feel" @jenkat86!


----------



## egrogan

But get some of those cheap plastic Easter eggs so it's much less messy for you and your horse


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> As a trail rider, I expect my mare to on alert for danger just like I am and that means she's looking around and is aware of her environment using her superior senses. On the trails we ride, it takes teamwork between horse and rider to stay safe and that means being in tune with each other, other riders and horses, and what is happening around you.
> 
> My mare may appear to not be looking around to a novice, but her ears tell me differently---as long as she has one cocked back to me, she's being respectful and staying focused on my cues. If both ears go forward, I know she's picked up some potential danger and will just let her figure out if it's something I need to worry about too. If her head goes down and an ear is cocked back to me, I know we're safe, but if she becomes a little snorty and tenses up, I know to listen to what she's saying and pay attention. She saved my butt too many times for me to ever doubt her warnings. And that mare is certainly not being disrespectful---she keeping both of us safe!


Oh I see. Yes Im always paying attention to Flys ears, but its hard to when riding cause then you need to look down. So I try to look whee her ears are with my peripheral vision. So basically, dont be bothered or worried at all when Fly is looky looky.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Looking back and forth isn't reactive. That's intent and curious. Reactive is spooking constantly, bolting, spinning, sweating, prancing, snorting, trying to pull the reins out of your hands. :icon_rolleyes:


One of the big reasons why I always thought Fly was reactive was because would always be on alert and at times (it happened yesterday), she will spin right around to look at something.

But I know that shes a prey animal and all horses would spin around to look at something that they want to see. But it doesnt nessecarily mean that theyre worried or scared.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Remember about 58734895734958 pages back when we were all talking about wet saddle pads? Those young horses you speak of are "quiet" because of that and a combination of other things. Work makes a quiet horse.
> 
> I always allow my horse to look around. She needs to be just as aware of her surroundings as I am. I set a line, and I don't allow her to cross that line. For example, if someone rides up next to us, she is allowed to look but she is NOT allowed to sniff and pin her ears and all that.


So far Ive had at least a few wet saddle pads on Fly, so thats good.

I dont let her react to any other riders and she has a tendency to haha. She will sometimes want to bite or glare at another horse in barn and I immediately get her away from the other horse so she cant.


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## tinyliny

with hands and release, it's all timing, and it takes a while to get it down. 

but , in general, put the pressure on a bit more slowly, and the release on a bit faster.

that entails having good management of your reins lengths. here's an article for "Horse and Rider" magazing that should help you.









*1.* Your reins' exact midpoint should be marked with tape. This is the spot you should return to when giving slack to your horse, so that you're always riding with reins of equal length. It's also where you'll grasp to pull up or "choke" your reins--that is, take the slack out of them. If you're riding with a mecate rein, run the extra length of rein to the far side of the saddle horn, as I have here, then tuck it into your belt. (For safety reasons, never tie or otherwise secure the rein to you in any way.)







*2.* Allow your horse to walk forward on a loose rein. Keep your rein hand in the middle of your horse's withers, and stay out of his mouth--by which I mean, don't keep picking up your hand to micro-manage his every move. For many riders, fussing with the reins is a security issue--they keep at it to reassure themselves they're in control. But that's not necessary when you know how to use your reins properly. Trust your horse.







*3.* First, I'll show how not to shorten your reins: by spreading your hands apart. Note that this method requires me to lean forward-an unbalanced and insecure position. Instead, to communicate effectively and remain secure in the saddle, you should be sitting straight and square whenever you use your reins.







*4.* Here's the right way to "choke" or shorten your reins, by drawing the slack out with your left hand. To do this, simply lift straight up on the midpoint of the reins with your left hand, while encircling the reins at the withers with your right hand, which acts as a pulley. Lift as high as necessary with your left hand to establish light contact with your horse's mouth. Keep your seat firmly in the saddle as you do this, and don't lean forward.







*5.* Once the reins are shortened, you can drop the slack to your horse's left side and transfer the shortened reins to your left hand to cue your horse one-handed, or pick up the reins and the slack in both hands. Choking the reins isn't as easy as it looks; it takes many repetitions for the maneuver to become fluid, consistent and practically second nature to you. (Tip: Take your reins home and tie them to a chair where you can practice with them in the evening while watching TV.)







*6.* Here are several "don'ts" to avoid: I'm leaning forward and coming up out of the saddle. I've got my pulley hand too high, instead of down near my horse's withers. My pulley hand isn't encircling both reins.







*7.* Now, in preparation for next month's lesson, ask your horse to "give" to the side. From a standstill, slide your right hand down the rein far enough to be able to draw your horse's head around about as much as I'm drawing my mare's head here. Then rest your hand just above your knee, and wait patiently until...







*8.* ...your horse releases the pressure on his mouth by bringing his head all the way around, as my mare is here. Then bring your hand forward, rub your horse's neck, and repeat. Practice this exercise on both sides until your horse gives his head willingly with minimal bit pressure. 
_--Photos by Darrell Dodds_


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Hoofpic, on your next lesson you should have an "egg" lesson. Have your trainer lead Fly with the lead rope while you are riding and hold a spoon in each hand. On the spoon, place an egg. Have her to small circles, serpentines, backing... Your goal of the whole lesson is to not drop the eggs.
> 
> By the end of the lesson you will understand "feel."
> 
> You are making riding too analytical. You cannot think your way through riding. You have to feel your way through it.


I could do that. BUt remember my trainer did already have me balance a short crop laid across my wrists doing 20m circles at a trot and told me not to drop it. RIGHT AWAY the both of us noticed an immediate improvement in my hands. We only did it once for 5 mins but it worked.

So I did manage to feel what feel is about but I need to know how much tension and how much slack should be on those reins. My trainer says a lot of times i have too much slack in them.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I could do that. BUt remember my trainer did already have me balance a short crop laid across my wrists doing 20m circles at a trot and told me not to drop it. RIGHT AWAY the both of us noticed an immediate improvement in my hands. We only did it once for 5 mins but it worked.
> 
> So I did manage to feel what feel is about but I need to know how much tension and how much slack should be on those reins. My trainer says a lot of times i have too much slack in them.


So if you did it for 5 minutes and you started to recognize what it felt like, imagine what 30 minutes could do for you? Especially when you're not having to worry about your reins since your trainer will be leading your horse...


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> with hands and release, it's all timing, and it takes a while to get it down.
> 
> but , in general, put the pressure on a bit more slowly, and the release on a bit faster.
> 
> that entails having good management of your reins lengths. here's an article for "Horse and Rider" magazing that should help you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1.* Your reins' exact midpoint should be marked with tape. This is the spot you should return to when giving slack to your horse, so that you're always riding with reins of equal length. It's also where you'll grasp to pull up or "choke" your reins--that is, take the slack out of them. If you're riding with a mecate rein, run the extra length of rein to the far side of the saddle horn, as I have here, then tuck it into your belt. (For safety reasons, never tie or otherwise secure the rein to you in any way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2.* Allow your horse to walk forward on a loose rein. Keep your rein hand in the middle of your horse's withers, and stay out of his mouth--by which I mean, don't keep picking up your hand to micro-manage his every move. For many riders, fussing with the reins is a security issue--they keep at it to reassure themselves they're in control. But that's not necessary when you know how to use your reins properly. Trust your horse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *3.* First, I'll show how not to shorten your reins: by spreading your hands apart. Note that this method requires me to lean forward-an unbalanced and insecure position. Instead, to communicate effectively and remain secure in the saddle, you should be sitting straight and square whenever you use your reins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *4.* Here's the right way to "choke" or shorten your reins, by drawing the slack out with your left hand. To do this, simply lift straight up on the midpoint of the reins with your left hand, while encircling the reins at the withers with your right hand, which acts as a pulley. Lift as high as necessary with your left hand to establish light contact with your horse's mouth. Keep your seat firmly in the saddle as you do this, and don't lean forward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *5.* Once the reins are shortened, you can drop the slack to your horse's left side and transfer the shortened reins to your left hand to cue your horse one-handed, or pick up the reins and the slack in both hands. Choking the reins isn't as easy as it looks; it takes many repetitions for the maneuver to become fluid, consistent and practically second nature to you. (Tip: Take your reins home and tie them to a chair where you can practice with them in the evening while watching TV.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *6.* Here are several "don'ts" to avoid: I'm leaning forward and coming up out of the saddle. I've got my pulley hand too high, instead of down near my horse's withers. My pulley hand isn't encircling both reins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *7.* Now, in preparation for next month's lesson, ask your horse to "give" to the side. From a standstill, slide your right hand down the rein far enough to be able to draw your horse's head around about as much as I'm drawing my mare's head here. Then rest your hand just above your knee, and wait patiently until...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *8.* ...your horse releases the pressure on his mouth by bringing his head all the way around, as my mare is here. Then bring your hand forward, rub your horse's neck, and repeat. Practice this exercise on both sides until your horse gives his head willingly with minimal bit pressure.
> _--Photos by Darrell Dodds_


Thanks Liny, that is very helpful.

My trainer actually suggested the "tape on the lead" method a few weeks ago but I didnt get around to it. The thing is, I would literally need to put the tape on, when im on the saddle with my trainer there because I wont know exactly where the tape should be. But she requested it for the very same reasons. So I know where my hands should be or at least within. I think this would really help me. Maybe ill ask if she can put the tape on for me this weekend as I have lessons on both Sat and Sun.


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## jenkat86

Your reins don't need to be on her to do this. Just fold them end to end and tape the middle...


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## Hoofpic

I dont think I mentioned to any of you guys but this is a good visual image of Fly's previous home for 2 months before I bought her. It was in the backyard of the previous owners parents house (where the owner was living for the time being).










Now, speaking of her being a prey animal, you would think 1) being by yourself with no other horses and 2) in such an open environment like this, any horse would always be on alert and never feel at ease right?

Well Fly had a shelter but she never stayed in it (and you can see why), because she cant see possible predators from behind). Even when it rainned she would stand under a tree branch. I dont know where she slept, but it wasnt a great environment for her. I dont see any horse being all by themself sleeping at ease because who is going to stand guard while they nap?

She got really lonely and didnt have enough grass to eat. She drank her water out of a dirty creek. Im just so glad that she is much happer where she is right now and can be around other horses again.


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## Hoofpic

Im just so glad that Fly didnt get seen by any cougars or bears. Where she was (west of the city, towards the moutains), its not all that uncommon for bears and cougers, deer, elk to be spotted roaming those areas. If she did get spotted, I dont think Fly would have survived, especially when shes all by herself. I would never put any horse in that kind of envinronment, but thats just me and especially not all alone.

The day I took her home and she arrived at the previous barn, you should have seen her. I didnt tape it but she was so happy that she didnt even want to eat. She would take a bit, then roam around her paddock and look around. Then go back and take another bite and rinse and repeat haha. She just wanted to look around, investigate her new surroundings, see all the horses again, she kept calling out and was calling out to every horse she saw. She was always curious about this one 3 year old stud at the barn, who was in a paddock as well but not near her to make contact. She always had her eyes locked on him.

I really regret not taping these moments. I missed out on these lost moments.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Your reins don't need to be on her to do this. Just fold them end to end and tape the middle...


Il try that thanks. Remember mine are 10ft reins.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Il try that thanks. Remember mine are 10ft reins.


And? Why should that make a difference? Finding the middle is the same whether they're 10' or 4'.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Oh I see. Yes Im always paying attention to Flys ears, but its hard to when riding cause then you need to look down. So I try to look whee her ears are with my peripheral vision. So basically, dont be bothered or worried at all when Fly is looky looky.


Remember my lesson about " soft eyes"?? You do NOT have to look down to see your horses ears, they are in your peripheral vision!!


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## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> I dont think I mentioned to any of you guys but this is a good visual image of Fly's previous home for 2 months before I bought her. It was in the backyard of the previous owners parents house (where the owner was living for the time being).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, speaking of her being a prey animal, you would think 1) being by yourself with no other horses and 2) in such an open environment like this, any horse would always be on alert and never feel at ease right?
> 
> Well Fly had a shelter but she never stayed in it (and you can see why), because she cant see possible predators from behind). Even when it rainned she would stand under a tree branch. I dont know where she slept, but it wasnt a great environment for her. I dont see any horse being all by themself sleeping at ease because who is going to stand guard while they nap?
> 
> She got really lonely and didnt have enough grass to eat. She drank her water out of a dirty creek. Im just so glad that she is much happer where she is right now and can be around other horses again.



that looks so very much like the environment I ride in all the time. some folks keep horses in property like that, but it isn't ideal. the ground wont grow much grass, and not much sunshine. pretty, though.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> And? Why should that make a difference? Finding the middle is the same whether they're 10' or 4'.


I didnt know that, but now I know. Thanks  I'm going to apply tape onto my lead tomorrow. I'm wondering what kind of tape will stick the best on nylon lead rope.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Remember my lesson about " soft eyes"?? You do NOT have to look down to see your horses ears, they are in your peripheral vision!!


Yes and this is what my trainer has been getting me to do. Monitor her ears in my peripheral vision.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> that looks so very much like the environment I ride in all the time. some folks keep horses in property like that, but it isn't ideal. the ground wont grow much grass, and not much sunshine. pretty, though.


Not ideal because IMO, unless its a wild horse, horses are meant to be out in the field with grass and other horses. They are very social animals and they need room to play, run around, eat. Not alone in an open forest that makes them vulnerable to other animals. Im just very relieved and happy that Fly did not get hurt. 2 months is still 2 months, especially for a horse that got really lonely and didnt have enough to eat, that is a long time for them.

She definitely should have been on hay, not sure why she wasnt. I went to see her twice before trailering her home the 3rd time (1st visit was a meet and greet and brief ride on her, and the 2nd was vacs, shots and exam by the vet). Having to find a vet and find someone to trailer her home delayed things by a few days. Each time I went out, she was starving and was wolfing down the grain and carrots given to her by her owner at the time as if she hasnt eaten for months. I felt so bad for her. I would say at this time, she was probably about 825-850lbs (right now she is 900lbs from when I last weighed her 2 months ago). She wasn't emanicated but (like others said as well) that she would look a better with a bit more weight on her.

When I went to see her, she didnt want us to go. I didnt want to go. She just stood by the gate and watched us until she couldnt see us in her sight anymore. Then she would wander back into the forest looking for more food. All alone.
The poor mare looked miserable and you could tell was very lonely. Previous owner totally knew this and why she wanted to move her ASAP. Obviously Fly didnt settle in well in that environment. Afterall, what horse would feel comfortable sleeping and mosying around in an open forest with no other horses in sight and with so many spots for predators to hide and lurch from?

Still to this day, I have a strong feeling that Fly barely slept in that home. Because when I brought her to the previous barn, the first few days that I spent with her (I pretty much spent all day with her), she was exhausted. 

From the 1st visit to the day I picked her up (was exactly 7 days apart), that was the longest 7 days of my life. The time couldnt have gone any slower. I was counting down the days to when I get to own her and take her home and make her happy again.


----------



## tinyliny

she's a wonderful life partner!


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, there are several times where you are once again anthropomorphizing your mare----she's a horse, not a human! Healthy horses normally wolf down their grain and treats because they don't want another horse to get it, just because she watched you walk away does not mean she was lonely or pining for attention and company---she was curious about what you were going to do. Actually, Fly is too fat now so if she weights 900 lbs, that 825-850 lbs was about right for her. She would have had to sleep during those 2 months or she would have died---the body needs sleep t recharge itself. That sleep may not have been the deep sleep of a horse who is comfortable in her environment, but she did sleep. While keeping a single horse is not normally ideal, many horses live like this and thrive if the owner meets their needs for housing, feed, training, and interaction with another living being. I've no doubt our TWH gelding would be fine as an "only" simply because he is so people oriented and had never been in a herd before we rescued him.


Please stop assuming that Fly is a human and read about horse dynamics and how the horse functions in life, adapting to changes in her environment.


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic, every meal my horse eats he wolfs down. He too watches me as I walk away, and he also has days when we have done nothing where he's exhausted.

He's a horse, he likes to eat, he likes to observe, and he burns energy just by standing like every other mammal.

And I've had him for 6 years...... and he has plenty to eat...

If she was "starving" then she would have been truly bones... not just a little less fat.


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## Rainaisabelle

I don't think your mare was underweight, most horses scoff their food it's normal. Some people even put bricks in the bucket to make the horse slow down.

Attached is a picture of my TB when I first got him. That's underweight.


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## Zexious

Based on the photos posted, your horse does not look underweight to me.


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## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Regarding correct position: yes, your hands at a base level are in the "right position" in that your thumbs are up/knuckles facing each other. However, a correct position is not static. It moves, it adjusts, it flows with the horse. It will come with time (correct position AND flow). But if I had my druthers, I would rather see a learning rider flow with a few flaws in position than a perfect position that is rigid and "stuck".
> 
> 
> Remember (everyone, hoofpic, _and_ followers) Rome wasn't built in a day.
> 
> @*Hoofpic*, is there a story to go with those pictures? Looks like a nice relaxed horse and handler.


Those pics are from a clinic that I attended in May just after the Mane Event and just shortly after I had a couple lessons with my outside trainer. I got to work with a 10 year old Andalousa. She was such a nice mare to work with, her personality was very much the opposite of what Fly is , because Fly is a dominant mare and this Andalousa wasnt at all. She didnt have a name because she was a rescue horse and according to the person who was at the time taking care of her, she was a people's horse. She would rather be around people than horses, which I found really unique.

It was so windy that day that most of the people cancelled and there was only 3 others there aside from me. I will say one thing, that would have been a very good experience for Fly to be in, but she wouldnt have liked being in a big tarp that was super loud because the wind was out of control that day.

I was able to get this mare onto and over the matresses, on and over the bridge (there was a couple sizes, obviously the smaller the harder) and did the L shaped sticks on the plyons, back her up through them without knocking the sticks down. 

Then the next day, I went back to my barn and did the same thing on Fly. Obviously we dont have a matress at the barn, but I was able to back her up through L shaped logs. It wasnt as easy as with the 10 year old Andalousa but I got it done.

I had a good time.

Its still very much my goal to take Fly to a 1 day clinic (hoping it can be this year) and be an active participant. Its great that Ive been audting all these clinics, but there comes a time where I need to bring Fly along to take in the experience with me. I think it would be an amazing and very beneficial experience for her. But all the ones Ive come across so far, are just too expensive for me.

Obviously the one at my barn in August will be her first and its always easy when its right at your barn just feet away haha.


----------



## Hoofpic

I will say one thing though. I do believe that you "get what you pay for" when it comes to these clinics, at least to an extent. Not saying that a cheaper clinic to participate in, isnt as good as more expensive ones but I do feel there is a fine line between which ones are worth your time and which arent.

So the cost of it isnt everything to me. If my gut tells me that a more expensive clinic might benefit Fly and I more than one at a fraction of the cost, then I am willing to pay it.

Afterall, when I take Fly to a clinic, chances are Im most likely going to have to take time off work, and then factor in trailering fees (though my trainer is great and would be my first person to go to) she has a truck and a trailer and always offers to haul horses at just the cost of gas, which she just asks for a gift card to her favourite coffee shop back, which I find is very reasonable. She was the one who reached out to me and offered to haul Fly in when I moved to the barn and she did. It was a good length of a trip, about 55km each way, and she saved me about $150 if I was to hire an independant person.

Plus, I think Fly could use more exposure in the trailer. She has only been trailered 4 or 5 times in her life and she doesnt like being in them (which any horse doesnt like any confined space). When I trailered her to the barn im at now, it was last Sept on a super hot day. She was in a 3 horse trailer (where horses are loaded from the very end but stand sideways with a swing out door along their barrel) and she didnt like it. When we got to the new barn, she was sweating like crazy and wanted to get the heck out of there. But my trainer loaded and unloaded her really well.

This is another big reason why I got my trainer to haul Fly to the new barn, (it was also the very first time she met Fly), so that she gets to see how she is early before working with her and she got to see how she was trailer loading.

But the good thing is that she loads pretty well for a horse that doesnt like trailers. Though the two times that Fly has been trailered in the time that Ive had her, food had to be involved to lure her in. But the next time she is in a trailer though, I want her to have leggings on. Just better for the legs to protect them.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I will say one thing, that would have been a very good experience for Fly to be in, but she wouldnt have liked being in a big tarp that was super loud because the wind was out of .


STOP that sort of thinking right now, that and the "Fly won't like clippers" any of that sort of thinking needs to STOP.

Your job is to believe, and believe strongly that she will not have any issue with anything that you ask of her, while being prepared to act accordingly if it turns out to be an issue. The honest truth is that you do not yet have the ability to judge what she will be like, and going back to the bridge videos you made it more of an issue for her by your belief that she would find it scary.

I have already told you that my mare is very reactive, so I did have a little worry that when it came time to trim her up for the first show that she just MIGHT have a bad reaction. I buried that thought well down, and just walked her up to the clip station, asked her to drop her head slightly, gave her a loose rein and stood ready to react if she did. Trainer approached with clippers, nothing, switched them on, nothing, started trimming, nothing. She stood good as gold the whole time, because that was what we assumed that she would do.

Trust your mare, simply assume that she will go anywhere and do anything..


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Training a horse isn't avoiding something they may not like........ that's allowing the horse to train YOU. That's how people get injured.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, there are several times where you are once again anthropomorphizing your mare----she's a horse, not a human! Healthy horses normally wolf down their grain and treats because they don't want another horse to get it, just because she watched you walk away does not mean she was lonely or pining for attention and company---she was curious about what you were going to do. Actually, Fly is too fat now so if she weights 900 lbs, that 825-850 lbs was about right for her. She would have had to sleep during those 2 months or she would have died---the body needs sleep t recharge itself. That sleep may not have been the deep sleep of a horse who is comfortable in her environment, but she did sleep. While keeping a single horse is not normally ideal, many horses live like this and thrive if the owner meets their needs for housing, feed, training, and interaction with another living being. I've no doubt our TWH gelding would be fine as an "only" simply because he is so people oriented and had never been in a herd before we rescued him.
> 
> 
> Please stop assuming that Fly is a human and read about horse dynamics and how the horse functions in life, adapting to changes in her environment.


I know Fly was lonely because the previous owner told me. She missed her herd. It was a herd that she had been with for 2 years and a home that she lived in for 2 years. A home that she did all her training in. Before that (from the breeder, original owner), she was a field horse. She even said that she was always very hungry and even with the 1lb of grain that she was feeding Fly, it helped for the lack of hay but it was only something that she could do for a short time and not in the long run.

Im sure that Fly learned to adapt to her environment at the time, but even the previous owner said, she wasnt happy there.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. But you see some of these young horses get ridden out on the trail or be out in some new environment and they dont look around at all because their handler is with them. They are calm and a lot of the times have their head lowered.
> 
> Isnt a looky horse a sign of one who doesnt respect their handler?


A looky horse, to me, is one who is enjoying the adventure too. Now if you were chasing a cow or doing some other job a looky horse would not be good.

I noticed on the video that when Fly sneezed you automatically gave her rein to do so. That's a very good sign that you are getting 'the feel'. Fly had a free flowing ground covering walk which looked very relaxed & happy. All nice to see.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Hoofpic, every meal my horse eats he wolfs down. He too watches me as I walk away, and he also has days when we have done nothing where he's exhausted.
> 
> He's a horse, he likes to eat, he likes to observe, and he burns energy just by standing like every other mammal.
> 
> And I've had him for 6 years...... and he has plenty to eat...
> 
> If she was "starving" then she would have been truly bones... not just a little less fat.


Okay I will she wasnt starving in her previous home, but she barely had enough to eat. Fly has more grass in the field that she's in right now with 3 others and even if she was alone in that field, BO says it still wouldnt be near enough food for her to live off without hay.

If a horse goes without any or very little food, hwo quickly do they get emaciated?

But you know what? I will admit, (I saw it as time progressed), the previous owner of Fly was not the person to believe everything from either. She trimmed Fly's feet in the 2 years that she owned her and her feet when I got Fly were unbalanced, all 4 at different angles (thankfully, theyre balanced now). But I didnt have the awareness of looking at a horses feet before buying them. If I was to buy a horse today, you can bet I would be looking at their feet. Not saying that I have the eye to tell apart from a good hoof to a bad one, but I have a much clearer idea of what needs to be looked for...and sitting in on those hoof anatomy lectures at the Mane Event really helped get me at least basic knowledge on hoofs and how much hoofs are linked to a horses overall health.


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## jaydee

A horse that takes no interest at all in its surrounding would be brain dead
A rider who never thinks 'I wonder if my horse is going to deal with this new potentially scary thing/situation would also be brain dead. Sorry.


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Okay I will she wasnt starving in her previous home, but she barely had enough to eat. Fly has more grass in the field that she's in right now with 3 others and even if she was alone in that field, BO says it still wouldnt be near enough food for her to live off without hay.
> 
> If a horse goes without any or very little food, hwo quickly do they get emaciated?


Okay, what exactly are you asking me. Food is very vague. So you mean hay, pasture, grain?

Going without hay is very bad when there is no pasture. 

Going without hay when there is pasture may or may not be bad depending on the horse's body condition and metabolic rate. Faster rate = burning more faster. Also known as harder keeper.

Going without grain... honestly some horses don't even need it. Some do, if they are hard keepers. Sky is a hard keeper but he has enough pasture that he isn't struggling as much as when the pasture quality sucks.

Horses process food slowly... so it HAS to be high quality for the energy outcome to be worth it and actually contribute to key body functions.

The fatter or thinner the horse, the more strain on joints and other susceptibilities to disease. That's why body condition is so important so be not too fat and not too skinny.

Lean is muscle with little fat. Lean is ideal for an athlete.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, you need to stop making all these assumptions that your mare doesn't like this and won't like that. You have neither the knowledge nor the experience to even read a horse to even know if she likes or dislikes something. If all it took was small food bribe to get her on the slant horse trailer, then she sure doesn't dislike or fear it! You also don't avoid doing something with a horse because they don't or may not like it----I'm sure our horse don't "like" vaccinations or worming, would prefer to loaf in the pasture than be worked, and think I should only feed them that tasty grain, but that doesn't stop from having the vet out for their yearly physicals and vaccinations, worming them as needed, training and/or working them to improve their usefulness, or limiting their diets to what they need nutritionally. 


An example.....our rescued abused mare was terrified of the clippers the first time I wanted to clip her bridle path. Approach and retreat methodology didn't work---she was too scared to even realize that she was not being hurt. I just calmly left her and turned around to work on our gelding tied next to her. She carefully watched what I was doing, noticed that he was totally calm and looking forward to his treat, so when I next turned back to her, clipping her bridle path was NBD. It's all in how you approach the training to get the horse to cooperate----a positive attitude, calmness, patience, thinking outside the box, confidence, and consistence work every single time!


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I don't think your mare was underweight, most horses scoff their food it's normal. Some people even put bricks in the bucket to make the horse slow down.
> 
> Attached is a picture of my TB when I first got him. That's underweight.


Wow thanks for the pic. You are right, Fly was NOT underweight when I got her. Here is a pic of Fly the day after I took her home.

Paddock that she was in for 13 days before moving her to one next to other horses.










If there was one thing that I deeply regret doing when I got Fly, was not taking enough pics and videos of her. Same with not taking enough lessons and my mindset and focus was far too much on barn chores, mucking paddocks and feeding. I deeply regret many things from the old barn, but it was all a learning experience for me. And thats why I still strongly believe that the day I left there and arrived at the barn Im at now was the best decision I could have ever made for both Fly and I.

I still owe a nice gift to my former trainer at the old barn (or at least one of them since I used two) but I cant go back there because I left on bad terms. Because if it wasnt for her mentioning the barn im at now to me, I most likely would be stuck at a jumping barn right now with a much different crowd. Im glad I got the gut feeling that a jumping barn would not have been a good place for me.


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## Prairie

"I know Fly was lonely because the previous owner told me" and "I know Fly was lonely because the previous owner told me."


Those 2 statements are mutually exclusive. You fell for one of the oldest horse trader's tool, playing on the sympathies and emotions of the potential buyer. You also don't know if the seller would have given her hay after the pasture was too poor to support her nutritional needs.


I'm sure most horses would prefer to be in a herd, but many live as onlies and thrive. You do not have the experience and knowledge to make these assumptions about any horse at this point-----it takes years handling many different horses to be able to correctly read a horse most of the time.


----------



## Hoofpic

After 13 days, I moved Fly to this paddock where she bonded with a gray mare one on side and a Norweigan pony on the other side. It was interesting watching her and the pony communicate because they would often get into arguements and kick the fence. The pony was very food aggressive and would often try to steal Fly's food from reaching under the fence so I started feeding her right in the middle of the paddock. Ever heard of people say how some horses could be friends over the fence, but not in a herd together? I think this was the case with Fly and both her neighbours. She was in here for 6 weeks. That was way too long for me, I was wanting Fly to have more space to roam around and be more mobile in.










Then I moved her to a 1 acre paddock all to herself. I spent 14 hours over the course of a weekend mucking this out before putting her in it, because it hasnt been harrolded or cleaned out in years. It was disgusting. This pic was taken during the week we got storms daily with 20mm of rain a day. As you can see that shelter she had, it was massive, you could fit 8-10 horses in it if not more.

She had grass to eat, could run around and had a herd of mares over the fence on one side and a herd of cows over the fence on another side. It was interesting to see how she was around cows. She did good! The day I put her in here, she was galloping with her tail up, she was so happy. Its obvious that she wanted to be out in the field. She was in here for 6 weeks before I moved her.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> After 13 days, I moved Fly to this paddock where she bonded with a gray mare one on side and a Norweigan pony on the other side. It was interesting watching her and the pony communicate because they would often get into arguements and kick the fence. The pony was very food aggressive and would often try to steal Fly's food from reaching under the fence so I started feeding her right in the middle of the paddock. Ever heard of people say how some horses could be friends over the fence, but not in a herd together? I think this was the case with Fly and both her neighbours. She was in here for 6 weeks. That was way too long for me, I was wanting Fly to have more space to roam around and be more mobile in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then I moved her to a 1 acre paddock all to herself. I spent 14 hours over the course of a weekend mucking this out before putting her in it, because it hasnt been harrolded or cleaned out in years. It was disgusting. This pic was taken during the week we got storms daily with 20mm of rain a day. As you can see that shelter she had, it was massive, you could fit 8-10 horses in it if not more.
> 
> She had grass to eat, could run around and had a herd of mares over the fence on one side and a herd of cows over the fence on another side. It was interesting to see how she was around cows. She did good! The day I put her in here, she was galloping with her tail up, she was so happy. She was in here for 6 weeks before I moved her.


Or she was anxious.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> STOP that sort of thinking right now, that and the "Fly won't like clippers" any of that sort of thinking needs to STOP.
> 
> Your job is to believe, and believe strongly that she will not have any issue with anything that you ask of her, while being prepared to act accordingly if it turns out to be an issue. The honest truth is that you do not yet have the ability to judge what she will be like, and going back to the bridge videos you made it more of an issue for her by your belief that she would find it scary.
> 
> I have already told you that my mare is very reactive, so I did have a little worry that when it came time to trim her up for the first show that she just MIGHT have a bad reaction. I buried that thought well down, and just walked her up to the clip station, asked her to drop her head slightly, gave her a loose rein and stood ready to react if she did. Trainer approached with clippers, nothing, switched them on, nothing, started trimming, nothing. She stood good as gold the whole time, because that was what we assumed that she would do.
> 
> Trust your mare, simply assume that she will go anywhere and do anything..


Okay I will stop. Over the past couple months, I have started to view Fly as being no different than the lesson mare that I was riding and handling. It just hasnt completely sunk in yet, I dont know why its taking so long! Its frustrating. I need to see it as when Im with Fly, she is no different in terms of her ability, personality, composure, confidence than the lesson mare or any other seasoned mares on the property.

In the mare herd next to Flys, there is an alpha mare there (the BO's) who is 27 and has always been the boss in every herd that she has been in. The lesson mare looks up to her and loves her. The BO and I have talked about this mare more in depth and what shes like, the effect she has on the other horses. Just a well trained, well behaved, confident and composed mare that never gives any handlers any trouble. And this is why she has been one of the go to lesson horses for the kids who come to the barn to ride, to handle and ride.

She is a lesson horse but doesnt get ridden as much as others, so I dont see her in the barn as much as other lesson horses. But when she does come in, I always take note of it because I try to watch and observe her as much as I can. She is such a calm, confident, and relaxed horse. Nothing phases her. This is what I need to view Fly as. Now, obviously im not saying that Fly is a 27 year old mare, (and obviously Im taking advantage of the "exageration training technique" again), but I need to view Fly as being as capable as the 27 year old mare.

Because if I was to handle the 27 yr old mare and ask of things from her. Would I second guess stuff because Im worried that she will be uncomfortable with it or wont like it? Not at all. And that is because I believe in her and have zero doubt in her. I need to permanently bring this mindset over to my mare. I just need to find a much quicker way in accomplishing it.

But I will say though, ever since riding Fly, I have gotten more confidence in her in general. I just need to keep getting more.

Because over the past 7 weeks, Fly has shown me that she is such a calm and cool cucumber in the saddle.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Training a horse isn't avoiding something they may not like........ that's allowing the horse to train YOU. That's how people get injured.


I agree, good point. 



natisha said:


> A looky horse, to me, is one who is enjoying the adventure too. Now if you were chasing a cow or doing some other job a looky horse would not be good.
> 
> I noticed on the video that when Fly sneezed you automatically gave her rein to do so. That's a very good sign that you are getting 'the feel'. Fly had a free flowing ground covering walk which looked very relaxed & happy. All nice to see.


Thanks. Yes, I am starting to get "the feel". Im not there yet, but Im familiar with how it generally feels like. 

One thing that my trainer has noticed from me is that when I ride her, Fly likes to lower her head every now and then. My upper body no longer lunges forward when she does this. Before my upper body would always lunge forward, then I lose my balance and have to regain my balance again and then Fly is confused because she doesnt know if Iwant her to stop or what. I did this before because my elbows and hands were way too stiff and always locked in place.

All the riders that Ive watched in the clinics, and other riders at my barn, even my trainer, all have elastic elbows. 

Thats why the sooner I can get my brain trained permanently to lean back and leaning back is my safety comfort spot, the better. Lean back, keep the elbows loose and my balance should come soon after that.

Thats what I was focused on during that ride out the driveway. Keeping my back straight. Because chances are its going to be easier for me to get more comfortable with my back straight at a walk than a trot and overcome my fear of falling backwards.

And I said to myself, yes we are going down the driveway but Im not going to get nervous because I know Fly will be okay going down it. And she was!


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Okay, what exactly are you asking me. Food is very vague. So you mean hay, pasture, grain?
> 
> Going without hay is very bad when there is no pasture.
> 
> Going without hay when there is pasture may or may not be bad depending on the horse's body condition and metabolic rate. Faster rate = burning more faster. Also known as harder keeper.
> 
> Going without grain... honestly some horses don't even need it. Some do, if they are hard keepers. Sky is a hard keeper but he has enough pasture that he isn't struggling as much as when the pasture quality sucks.
> 
> Horses process food slowly... so it HAS to be high quality for the energy outcome to be worth it and actually contribute to key body functions.
> 
> The fatter or thinner the horse, the more strain on joints and other susceptibilities to disease. That's why body condition is so important so be not too fat and not too skinny.
> 
> Lean is muscle with little fat. Lean is ideal for an athlete.


I dont think i was asking anything, sorry brain lapse here. But thank you for your answers, very good to know.

I feel most horses wouldnt need grain unless theyre a performance horse or a foal still growing. I do know that grain and suppluments is a very touchy subject with my BO. He feels that the industry has become too polluted with all these fancy feeds, when it all still comes down to the hay and the quality of it.

I had no idea that a horse being skinny is hard on their joints. And this is why Fly needs to be ridden year round. I dont mind if she gains more weight, i just want it to be muscle. And she has more muscle today than she did 7 weeks ago, so im happy 

Though Im not sure what kind of work it would take to get her to trim down a bit.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Though Im not sure what kind of work it would take to get her to trim down a bit.


The key to weight loss for man and best is: burn more calories than you consume.

If you don't work her longer/harder then cut back on feed.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Then I moved her to a 1 acre paddock all to herself. I spent 14 hours over the course of a weekend mucking this out before putting her in it, because it hasnt been *harrolded* or cleaned out in years.



There is no such word as harrolded.

Harrow is the word you need, to harrow, has been harrowed, needs harrowing....
Save​


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## Prairie

Thanks for pointing that out again, @Golden Horse.


Hoofpic, you've been a member of horse forums for over a year. You really need to learn the lingo if you want to talk with other horse people and not be thought a fool or a wannabe. Reign is what a monarch does----the word you want is rein. A stallion is gelded, making him a gelding. 


To address the feeding.......the basis of most horses' diet should be a good quality hay and/or pasture with vitamins and minerals (usually a ration balancer) added per a hay analysis if enough hay is purchased at a time or per the knowledge of the local vets and/or county extension agent (in the US). If the horse cannot maintain weight on free choice hay/pasture, then a grain concentrate should be added and fed at least at the minimum recommendation per the feed tag for the horse's ideal weight. Horses should also have access free choice to salt and a trace mineral block. 


Example.....both our TWH's require the minimum amount of grain for their ideal weight doing the amount of hard trail work we ask of them along with free choice excellent pasture and hay. The mini mare is a hard keeper, unusual for the breed certainly, but she needs the minimum amount of grain for her ideal weight too. The mini gelding is an air fern who gets fat on lousy hay----we have to limit his hay by feeding him 4 small meals per day plus a little extra at barn check. He also gets a smidge (teaspoon amount) of grain when we feed the mini mare so he doesn't feel left out.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, you need to stop making all these assumptions that your mare doesn't like this and won't like that. You have neither the knowledge nor the experience to even read a horse to even know if she likes or dislikes something. If all it took was small food bribe to get her on the slant horse trailer, then she sure doesn't dislike or fear it! You also don't avoid doing something with a horse because they don't or may not like it----I'm sure our horse don't "like" vaccinations or worming, would prefer to loaf in the pasture than be worked, and think I should only feed them that tasty grain, but that doesn't stop from having the vet out for their yearly physicals and vaccinations, worming them as needed, training and/or working them to improve their usefulness, or limiting their diets to what they need nutritionally.
> 
> 
> An example.....our rescued abused mare was terrified of the clippers the first time I wanted to clip her bridle path. Approach and retreat methodology didn't work---she was too scared to even realize that she was not being hurt. I just calmly left her and turned around to work on our gelding tied next to her. She carefully watched what I was doing, noticed that he was totally calm and looking forward to his treat, so when I next turned back to her, clipping her bridle path was NBD. It's all in how you approach the training to get the horse to cooperate----a positive attitude, calmness, patience, thinking outside the box, confidence, and consistence work every single time!


You are absolutely right. I need to stop assuming things. I dont have the knowledge to judge certain things so best thing for me to just leave them as it is and not have it bother me. Dont even think twice about it. 

Now, I dont mean to make up an excuses or putting the blame on anyone else (cause I know im the person in charge of my mare so I take full responsibility for what my mare does and does not do). But Ive come across many boarders (mostly at the previous barn) who have young horses and have this exact mindset that they won't do certain things with their horse because they are young. AGE IS ALWAYS A FACTOR TO THEM.

"Im not going to walk my horse through this area because its too windy and he doesnt like the wind."

"Im not going to take my horse to this area because the donkeys are there and she is scared of the donkeys "(just about every horse at my barn is terrfied of the donkeys, but not many have enough interest to have their horse get used to them. ill get more into that later). 

Fly WAS terrified of them, the very first time she saw them. She stopped dead in her tracks. Im working on getting her more at ease with the two mini donkeys. Shes still not okay with them, but she is a lot better. 

Just today I walked her past their paddock again and we just chilled and huung out for a few mins. I didnt pay any attention to the donkeys. I just looked around as if they werent even there, therefore they are not a threat or concern to me at all. I didnt say "good girl" to Fly or even give her a scratch or rub. Yes she stared at the both of them for every second we walked by them and her ears were up, but the most important thing is that I was relaxed as can be and didnt show any concern about the two mini donkies. 

Maybe this weekend I will even record a short clip for you guys to see what exactly Im doing with Fly to get her more used to the mini donkeys. I would love feedback. Its not an everyday thing. Ive only walked her by 3 or 4 times so far and today was the first time in a month. The donkies have only been at the barn for 3 months now.

But again, the donkies is just great thing for Fly and I to buid more trust.

Anyways back on track....

The current boarders at my barn that I am friends with, its fine that I hang around them and I can continue doing so, but I think I really need to put a limit on what I take in on what they say. So if they say that they arent going to do this with their young horse because they dont like the wind or that they are scared of this. I need to take it with a grain of salt. Most importantly, ITS THEIR DECISION ON THINKING THAT WAY. I dont need to follow. 

Yes Fly is more alert when its super windy out. Its normal. It has nothing to do with age. It all has to do with the fact she is a horse. She is no different than the 15 year old lesson mare or the 27 year old alpha mare. So just because its windy out, im not going to excuse myself from doing what i want to do with her. Expose her to the wind, act as if the wind is not an issue or concern to me and expect the same from Fly. Most importantly, believe that the wind will not be an issue for her. 

Just like how everyone ALWAYS brings up my mares age as a factor, or THE factor when we talk about her. 

Just the other day at the barn, I had Fly tied in the barn. I was in my stall getting a brush and a person walked by Fly but was carrying a pair of boots in her hand. Well lets just say that Fly didnt know what they were and she kinda jumped out of her seat. the person said that she did that because she is still young. I heard that but I immeidately made it go through one ear and out the other as if I never heard it. Again, AGE IS A NON FACTOR FOR FLY.


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## tinyliny

funny how horse get scared out of their gourds with minis or donkeys. 

if you have the opportunity at some time to have Fly 'chase' the donkeys, it will help build her confidence, just as any kind of desensitizing to balloons or anything can be started with having the frightened horse 'follow or chase' the scarey thing.


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## greentree

If they do not want to deal with it , then that is up to them. Has no bearing on Fly what so ever, you are correct.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> funny how horse get scared out of their gourds with minis or donkeys.


Haha its interesting thats forsure especially when donkies are not much bigger than a larger dog lol.

I think that horses cant quite distinguish what they are so they see them as a possible predator.



> if you have the opportunity at some time to have Fly 'chase' the donkeys, it will help build her confidence, just as any kind of desensitizing to balloons or anything can be started with having the frightened horse 'follow or chase' the scarey thing.


I wish I could do this but the mini donkies are my trainers and another boarders. They each have one. 

I can show you tomorrow what Im doing. I basically want Fly to be able to focus on other things when shes near the donkies. And Im hoping that she sees that the donkies arent of any worry to me, so she mirrors me.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Haha its interesting thats forsure especially when donkies are not much bigger than a larger dog lol.
> 
> I think that horses cant quite distinguish what they are so they see them as a possible predator.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I could do this but the mini donkies are my trainers and another boarders. They each have one.
> 
> I can show you tomorrow what Im doing. I basically want Fly to be able to focus on other things when shes near the donkies. And Im hoping that she sees that the donkies arent of any worry to me, so she mirrors me.


 Until one brays!


----------



## Hoofpic

Finally found a way to record the herd and not have the fencing get in the way!  Loving it!






Today, I took Fly for another long walk down the road but this time I couldnt walk her through the hay field because the hay and wheat is so long that its right up to her mouth lol, so when I walk her through it, of course she tries to feast away.

So I just walked her down the road (still a good distance, about 15mins each way). She was good. She saw a couple pieces of random items hidden in the long grass along the way that got her attention, but she was good. I just kept moving forward, didnt look down at her. I feel these long ways build trust between us.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> I feel most horses wouldnt need grain unless theyre a performance horse or a foal still growing. I do know that grain and suppluments is a very touchy subject with my BO. He feels that the industry has become too polluted with all these fancy feeds, when it all still comes down to the hay and the quality of it.
> 
> I had no idea that a horse being skinny is hard on their joints.
> 
> Though Im not sure what kind of work it would take to get her to trim down a bit.


Some grains on the market are a bunch of hooey. Not only certain horses need grain... like I said some have higher metabolic rates and will lose weight fast without it. Horses like mine. He'll drop visibly day to day without any hard feed. I'm just smart about what I feed him so that he gets the best he can

"Food" provides nutrients needed for joint health, without enough food then joints are neglected. Your mare is not at risk of this, in the "day of purchase" photo she's as round as a cantalope. 

FAT horses are hard on their joints simply due to more strain on joint use due to more weight.


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## KigerQueen

"she's as round as a cantalope. "

I love that ! ****


----------



## 6gun Kid

Lawdy, bro! I decided to come here again. To see if you had changed your approach..... you have'nt. Dude just ride your frickin horse, listen to your coach, and become comfortable in the saddle. Forget all this leader/bond/liberty bool sheet, and just RIDE! You learn to ride, and ride well, the rest of this will fall into place. You are a RANK beginner, use your little mare as a lesson horse. She obviously has the patience of an old school master. In 2 years, then you can look for the answers to your questions.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Lawdy, bro! I decided to come here again. To see if you had changed your approach..... you have'nt. Dude just ride your frickin horse, listen to your coach, and become comfortable in the saddle. Forget all this leader/bond/liberty bool sheet, and just RIDE! You learn to ride, and ride well, the rest of this will fall into place. You are a RANK beginner, use your little mare as a lesson horse. She obviously has the patience of an old school master. In 2 years, then you can look for the answers to your questions.


I have changed. There is nothing wrong with me still having interest in liberty and taking Fly for walks and doing other stuff. I like variety as well. Since discontinuing with the outside trainer, I have not done any groundwork at all. As long as Im riding her (which I am), theres nothing wrong with doing other stuff as well every now and then.

But you are right, it seems Fly does have the patience of an old school master. Which is a quality that I should not overlook.


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## Hoofpic

GAH not happy with my ride today. I know this takes time but holy cow is it ever hard.

Doing a rising trot with one foot out of its stirrup is so hard. Trainer says i need to be able to do this. Also being able to get one foot out and put it back in at a trot. Im laughably bad at this. I have to bring Fly to a walk to do this.

Also, is it just a confidence thing in reaching down to put your foot in the stirrup? I told my trainer that im always scared of falling. Im embarased that i need to get my trainer to hold Fly when i do it. I would love to be able to just reach down and put my other foot in.


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## Dehda01

Ok. You are a horse person. You will fall off. Multiple times if you really want to play this game. It doesn't hurt as bad as you would expect in most cases. 

If you do fall off, roll your head towards your knees so that you are more likely to take the force not on your head/neck. 

You need to get comfortable on horseback. Feet out of the stirrups, in the stirrups. Getting and keeping your balance. Hands out like an airplane. Bareback is good for teaching balance and teaching a body how to follow. 

The good news is that she is short and you don't have that far to go down... 

A fear of falling is normal, but there is a point where you need to get over it to a point.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Ok. You are a horse person. You will fall off. Multiple times if you really want to play this game. It doesn't hurt as bad as you would expect in most cases.
> 
> If you do fall off, roll your head towards your knees so that you are more likely to take the force not on your head/neck.
> 
> You need to get comfortable on horseback. Feet out of the stirrups, in the stirrups. Getting and keeping your balance. Hands out like an airplane. Bareback is good for teaching balance and teaching a body how to follow.
> 
> The good news is that she is short and you don't have that far to go down...
> 
> A fear of falling is normal, but there is a point where you need to get over it to a point.


Thanks. And yes I will fall of eventually. I just need to be more at ease reaching down for my stirrup to put my foot in. It just feels so far dowb thats all. I know ill get comfortable with it eventually.

Up until 2 mobths ago, i had no idea that people actually do rising trot bareback. The very first time I got on a horse, it was bareback but at a walk. This was my exs mare.


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## Dehda01

You just reach down and do it. Your other leg is anchoring you. Flex her slightly to one side to make her less likely to walk off on you. You aren't that far up. You will be fine. If you were my student, I would have you on the lunge line touching your toes, airplaning and shifting your body until you were comfortable w/t/c. THEN YOU GET TO STEER BY YOURSELF. 

A big part of your confidence issues are your personal body control. Sally Swift's book Centered Riding is a fantastic book with good mental pictures for personal body control. It is more english based, but I have used the exercises for both western and English riders since we both want ear/hip/heel alignment for most general riding.


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## Dehda01

How turned is your stirrup? Is the saddle not broken in well? You may want to make sure the stirrups are well turned.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> You just reach down and do it. Your other leg is anchoring you. Flex her slightly to one side to make her less likely to walk off on you. You aren't that far up. You will be fine. If you were my student, I would have you on the lunge line touching your toes, airplaning and shifting your body until you were comfortable w/t/c. THEN YOU GET TO STEER BY YOURSELF.
> 
> A big part of your confidence issues are your personal body control. Sally Swift's book Centered Riding is a fantastic book with good mental pictures for personal body control. It is more english based, but I have used the exercises for both western and English riders since we both wawnt ear/hip/heel alignment for most general riding.


That makes sense. I wilk check out that book. 

Even about 3 months back when my trainer had me do all this (reaching back to touch the tail, reach for your toes, etc) on the lesson mare (and the trainer was right next to me), i didnt feel comfortable.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> That makes sense. I wilk check out that book.
> 
> Even about 3 months back when my trainer had me do all this (reaching back to touch the tail, reach for your toes, etc) on the lesson mare (and the trainer was right next to me), i didnt feel comfortable.


Then she should of kept right on until you DID feel comfortable. These are 'games' that kids starting get to play the whole time, and it really benefits them. There is no way to overcome these issues without actually getting on and doing them.....lean back, and lean forward, touch your toes, all great things to do, ask your trainer to put you back on the lunge line again and do them. It would be good for Fly to experience a rider moving around like that as well, part of her 'growing up'


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## Golden Horse

Dehda01 said:


> How turned is your stirrup? Is the saddle not broken in well? You may want to make sure the stirrups are well turned.


I just checked back on a video and they are not turned at all..
@Hoofpic you really do need to get them turned because it will help you in so many ways, fighting your stirrups isn't good.

Do you have a good tack store need you, or a leather worker...I would strongly advise finding someone who can put a Texas Twist, also known as a Hamley, Arizona or Cowboy twist in your stirrups for you. There is a sticky here on doing it, and I am so glad that I found it and did mine, makes a world of difference. I had tried all the other methods, but this is just great. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/turning-western-stirrups-17669/

It is actually easy to do, ask around the barn, someone maybe able to help you do it....


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## Hoofpic

Today was a good experience for me. Rode outside in the outdoor arena again and for the first time with another rider. This rider just happens to be the owner of the other mare in Flys herd.

Now im not saying this because Im being nosey and butting into other peoples business. Im saying this because I was able to pull good advice from my trainer, even though it wasnt directed towards me.

Today there was some heated arguements between my trainer and the other rider. Obviously they dont get along the best and my trainer finds it hard to coach her. Not assuming, she even said it.

Well today my trainer jist kinda went a bit viral and said that she is trying to coach her but she is not following anything she says. I thought for a minute that things were going to get chaotic. Im so glad they did not. BO was observing as well. He knows that there is a bit of a fued between my trainer and the riderm And the rider was getting frustrated. I just kept mosying on with what i was told to do.

I wont go much into detail but she basically said she was tired of all the excuses coming from her. She couldnt get her horse going when asked, so she would say, that her mare is tired. She was given a crop to use and was told to use it but wouldnt. Basically the trainer said she needs to be much harder on her mare and to stop treating her like a baby. 

Now, since i was in the same lesson, i couldnt help but hear all of the heated discussion. I just have to make sure that I mind my own business. But i couldnt help but take in some of the things that ny trainer said because it sunk into my head as it was extremely valuable advice.

Stop babying your horse.

Shes a horse, not a stuffed animal. If you want to ride something that you can treat like a baby, then get a stuffed animal.

Stop making excuses for your horse.

Im hard on you guys because i want to see everyone of you do your best. Now, i dont know whats holding you back but its not something I can help you with. You need to do some soul searching and find out what that is.

This wasnt said to me but especially the excuses one, really sunk into my head. Its so true, you simply cannot make excuses for your horse. Dont blame the horse, blame yourself.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Then she should of kept right on until you DID feel comfortable. These are 'games' that kids starting get to play the whole time, and it really benefits them. There is no way to overcome these issues without actually getting on and doing them.....lean back, and lean forward, touch your toes, all great things to do, ask your trainer to put you back on the lunge line again and do them. It would be good for Fly to experience a rider moving around like that as well, part of her 'growing up'


I agree, it would be good for Fly to experience a rider moving around like that as well. Perhaps, I practice this on my own when on Fly? She likes to start walking as soon as I shift my weight.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I just checked back on a video and they are not turned at all..
> @Hoofpic you really do need to get them turned because it will help you in so many ways, fighting your stirrups isn't good.
> 
> Do you have a good tack store need you, or a leather worker...I would strongly advise finding someone who can put a Texas Twist, also known as a Hamley, Arizona or Cowboy twist in your stirrups for you. There is a sticky here on doing it, and I am so glad that I found it and did mine, makes a world of difference. I had tried all the other methods, but this is just great. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/turning-western-stirrups-17669/
> 
> It is actually easy to do, ask around the barn, someone maybe able to help you do it....


Im definitely going to do that! I will call around tomorrow to a couple big tack stores (yes I have a couple big ones). Im not sure if anyone at the barn knows how to do this. Im guessing once you turn the stirrups, its permanent?

For some reason my stirrups twist when I sit on Fly. Ive checked it out and theyre like at a 80 degree angle so I pretty much have to twist or angle my ankle/foot to get them in. Its ridiculous. There is no way that I should have this much difficulty 1) getting a foot out of my stirrup and 2) getting it back in.

Last week, it did cross my mind. Do you think that I perhaps chose the wrong stirrups? Maybe I should have gone with something like this.

MUCH MUCH thinner.










Cause I have this problem with my stirrups where they will easily slip down my feet throughout my ride (closer to the middle of my foot as opposed to the toes or just behind it) so then I have to readjust my foot and slide my foot out a bit. It doesnt happen all the time, but IMO enough to annoy you.

Also, tomorrow before my lesson I will be taping my reins. I will follow Jenkats advice on where exactly to place the tape.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> with hands and release, it's all timing, and it takes a while to get it down.
> 
> but , in general, put the pressure on a bit more slowly, and the release on a bit faster.
> 
> that entails having good management of your reins lengths. here's an article for "Horse and Rider" magazing that should help you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *1.* Your reins' exact midpoint should be marked with tape. This is the spot you should return to when giving slack to your horse, so that you're always riding with reins of equal length. It's also where you'll grasp to pull up or "choke" your reins--that is, take the slack out of them. If you're riding with a mecate rein, run the extra length of rein to the far side of the saddle horn, as I have here, then tuck it into your belt. (For safety reasons, never tie or otherwise secure the rein to you in any way.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *2.* Allow your horse to walk forward on a loose rein. Keep your rein hand in the middle of your horse's withers, and stay out of his mouth--by which I mean, don't keep picking up your hand to micro-manage his every move. For many riders, fussing with the reins is a security issue--they keep at it to reassure themselves they're in control. But that's not necessary when you know how to use your reins properly. Trust your horse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *3.* First, I'll show how not to shorten your reins: by spreading your hands apart. Note that this method requires me to lean forward-an unbalanced and insecure position. Instead, to communicate effectively and remain secure in the saddle, you should be sitting straight and square whenever you use your reins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *4.* Here's the right way to "choke" or shorten your reins, by drawing the slack out with your left hand. To do this, simply lift straight up on the midpoint of the reins with your left hand, while encircling the reins at the withers with your right hand, which acts as a pulley. Lift as high as necessary with your left hand to establish light contact with your horse's mouth. Keep your seat firmly in the saddle as you do this, and don't lean forward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *5.* Once the reins are shortened, you can drop the slack to your horse's left side and transfer the shortened reins to your left hand to cue your horse one-handed, or pick up the reins and the slack in both hands. Choking the reins isn't as easy as it looks; it takes many repetitions for the maneuver to become fluid, consistent and practically second nature to you. (Tip: Take your reins home and tie them to a chair where you can practice with them in the evening while watching TV.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *6.* Here are several "don'ts" to avoid: I'm leaning forward and coming up out of the saddle. I've got my pulley hand too high, instead of down near my horse's withers. My pulley hand isn't encircling both reins.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *7.* Now, in preparation for next month's lesson, ask your horse to "give" to the side. From a standstill, slide your right hand down the rein far enough to be able to draw your horse's head around about as much as I'm drawing my mare's head here. Then rest your hand just above your knee, and wait patiently until...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *8.* ...your horse releases the pressure on his mouth by bringing his head all the way around, as my mare is here. Then bring your hand forward, rub your horse's neck, and repeat. Practice this exercise on both sides until your horse gives his head willingly with minimal bit pressure.
> _--Photos by Darrell Dodds_


I printed this out so I can read it whenever and at the barn for reference.  Thanks.


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## Skyseternalangel

It is likely an issue with your fenders being stiff and not broken in... not necessarily the stirrups but they could be contributing to making the problem a bigger issue


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## tinyliny

chris Cox is one to follow. he's a great horseman, and a good family man.


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## greentree

Hoof pic,great lesson!

Could you please print THIS out, or make a little wooden sign for that trainer? It is one of my favorite saying .... 
Whether you tell yourself "I can",
Or tell yourself "I can't",
Either way, you're right.


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## Hoofpic

I have another lesson today but I have decided that I will post the lesson from yesterday (at least half of it, since we ended up going inside for the 2nd half). I would like you guys to see me ride in the outdoor arena with another rider for the first time. ANd then there were other distractions like a couple dogs, so there was a lot going on. The outdoor arena is still a bit new to me.

Its amazing how much harder it is to ride outside than in the arena. The biggest thing IMO is the not perfectly flat terrain (obviously it depends on the barn too), but having perfectly flat sand in the indoor arena definitely makes things easier. having slopes and slight dips in your terrain is good though because it makes balancing even harder IMO. But its amazing the difference that I noticed as soon as we went inside.

Here you will see a bunch of things but you will also see me do a rising trot with one foot out of the stirrup. Im better on my left (right foot out of stirrup) than my right and Im left handed so that would explain it.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> It is likely an issue with your fenders being stiff and not broken in... not necessarily the stirrups but they could be contributing to making the problem a bigger issue


Fenders? Are these a part of the saddle?


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## Dehda01

Dude, you really need to read a book to learn proper terminology of horses and your tack. 

Yes, the fender is the leather hanger holding the stirrup to the WESTERN saddle. It needs to be trained into a turn around your leg either with time and conditioning, or with a physical twist put into it. I normally condition the fender and then keep a broom handle in the stirrups for a few weeks whenever I am not riding in it and because I ride a lot the fenders shape around my leg. But the quality of the saddle, leather and many factors will impact how quickly this will happen.

Here is one of my saddles. You can see how the stirrup sits. The fender is twisted so that the stirrup is ready for my foot at all times. Rather than laying parallel to the horses side and I would have to fish for the stirrup.


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## 6gun Kid

Put your saddle on a saddle stand. Get a bucket of water and a broom. Dunkthe stirrups in the bucket so that you get the stirrup leathers wet for about 6" above the stirrups. Facing the saddle horn twist the stirrups 1 and 1/2 turns, run the broom handle thru the stirrups (still twisted) allow to dry. Voila, twisted stirrups!


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## 6gun Kid

Hey dude, buy this book

https://www.amazon.com/Horsemans-Sc...467558291&sr=8-1&keywords=Horsemans+scrapbook
It is full of handy little day to day hints.


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## Dehda01

I have always chickened out with water and do oil or conditioned the whole saddle and then the broomstick for a few weeks. But I know it does work. I just shiver at the thought of doing it to my very expensive, new saddles


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## DraftyAiresMum

Having to turn the stirrups is why I like buying used saddles versus new. :lol: All the work is done for me. ;-) I do need to turn the stirrups on my Hereford a little more, but they're not bad.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

If you are nervous about messing with your saddle, you could also try these:










There're called stirrup turners. They work really good if you have bad knees and are riding a new saddle with stiff fenders.


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## greentree

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> If you are nervous about messing with your saddle, you could also try these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There're called stirrup turners. They work really good if you have bad knees and are riding a new saddle with stiff fenders.


Does that not rub on your ankle? 

I think we need to start a daily quiz...


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## natisha

6gun Kid said:


> Put your saddle on a saddle stand. Get a bucket of water and a broom. Dunkthe stirrups in the bucket so that you get the stirrup leathers wet for about 6" above the stirrups. Facing the saddle horn twist the stirrups 1 and 1/2 turns, run the broom handle thru the stirrups (still twisted) allow to dry. Voila, twisted stirrups!


That's what I do too except I don't put the actual stirrups on until ready to twist. Sponging the back of rough out fenders helps too & will not discolor the visible front.

Hoofpic, if you are having trouble finding your stirrups with your feet alone you either have boots too big, stirrups too small or you need more pointy boots- beside turning the stirrups. There are reasons cowboys invented cowboy boots.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

greentree said:


> Does that not rub on your ankle?
> 
> I think we need to start a daily quiz...



My knees are on again off again, usually coinciding with the onset of winter, so I only used them for a short time when I got my new saddle. 

I didn't have a problem with them as I keep only the balls of my feet on the stirrups rather than sticking my foot in deep so my ankle is nowhere near.


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## Hoofpic

Im dropping off my saddle today at a shop to get them twisted. $50. 

Yes i can do it but id rather have someone else do it who knows what theyre doing.ishoukd have the saddle back on wed morning.

Thank you to you guys who told me about thw twist.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Im dropping off my saddle today at a shop to get them twisted. $50.
> 
> Yes i can do it but id rather have someone else do it who knows what theyre doing.ishoukd have the saddle back on wed morning.
> 
> Thank you to you guys who told me about thw twist.


$50 for water & a stick!!!!??? 6Gun told you exactly how to do it for free.
Right stirrup turns right, left turns left- run a broom handle or whatever through both stirrups at the same time & let it dry.
Sure, it's your money but there are simple things you can do yourself.


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## jenkat86

I think I recall you saying you were going to get different boots to ride in. That should be able to help you considerably get your foot in and out of the stirrup, along with getting the stirrups turned.


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## Golden Horse

natisha said:


> $50 for water & a stick!!!!??? 6Gun told you exactly how to do it for free.
> Right stirrup turns right, left turns left- run a broom handle or whatever through both stirrups at the same time & let it dry.
> Sure, it's your money but there are simple things you can do yourself.


I believe he is going to get them to put a twist in, rather than just turn them with the stick. A far superior job in my opinion, love my saddle since I did the twist.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> $50 for water & a stick!!!!??? 6Gun told you exactly how to do it for free.
> Right stirrup turns right, left turns left- run a broom handle or whatever through both stirrups at the same time & let it dry.
> Sure, it's your money but there are simple things you can do yourself.


Im sorry, just its new to me and i dont have faith in me doing it properly
 sorry.


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## Hoofpic

Natisha, I just dropped the saddle off. The lady said that the guy is doing the twist method where its permanent and no broom stick handle.

Now shopping for riding boots. I just triedon a pair at the tack store. $237CDN! Wow. And thats half off the regular $480 price. Im going to visit a couple more shops. I shouldnt need to spend $200+ on roding boots.

Isnt no grip on the soles bad in the stirrups?


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## Golden Horse

You want smooth soles, or just a little grip, no big treads. What sort of boots are you looking for English or Western? 

Remember a good pair of boots will last you a long time, will look good and keep you safe, don't cheap out too much


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## DraftyAiresMum

No, no grip is better. If you come off, you don't want anything hindering your foot's ability to come free. 

Some grip is okay, but you don't want heavy tread on the boots.

What kind of boots are you looking at? You don't need some custom job. Ariats, Justins, or Tony Lamas work just fine. My two favorite pairs of boots are my Ariats and my Justins. The Ariats were $100, the Justins were $150. 

Why don't you look at something like the Ariat Terrain? They look like a hiking boot, but the Terrains are all I rode and worked in for almost five years and I LOVED them. Definitely wanting to get another pair.


Terrain


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## Dehda01

The purpose of the smooth tread is so you don't get caught in the stirrups. They aren't hiking boots, boyo.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> You want smooth soles, or just a little grip, no big treads. What sort of boots are you looking for English or Western?
> 
> Remember a good pair of boots will last you a long time, will look good and keep you safe, don't cheap out too much


THanks. Would you say that me riding in riding boots would be safer than riding in composite plate work boots?

I would still wear the composite toes all the time at the barn, id just only wear the riding boots for when actually riding.

Perhaps the boots im using now isnt helping me in the saddle cause they have grip like hiking boots.


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## greentree

Those work boots are definitely contributing to your stirrup problem...
I would just wear the riding boots. Unless you are working with elephants...


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> THanks. Would you say that me riding in riding boots would be safer than riding in composite plate work boots?


That should be obvious . . .


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## DraftyAiresMum

Work boots have too much tread. Look at the pic of the Terrains I posted. They have tread, but it's not big, grippy tread. You want somewhat smooth so you don't get hung up and you can FEEL the stirrup more.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> No, no grip is better. If you come off, you don't want anything hindering your foot's ability to come free.
> 
> Some grip is okay, but you don't want heavy tread on the boots.
> 
> What kind of boots are you looking at? You don't need some custom job. Ariats, Justins, or Tony Lamas work just fine. My two favorite pairs of boots are my Ariats and my Justins. The Ariats were $100, the Justins were $150.
> 
> Why don't you look at something like the Ariat Terrain? They look like a hiking boot, but the Terrains are all I rode and worked in for almost five years and I LOVED them. Definitely wanting to get another pair.
> 
> 
> Terrain


I remember looking at Ariats a few months ago, but no one locally sells them. 

I dont know the difference between english and western but im sure i can wear both.

Let me find out the brand of the western ones i just tried on.

The grip rongs a bell, i remember chatting with my BO awhile back on boots and he said my boots now have too much grip and if i fall, theres a chance my feet can get caught.

Hes seen more than enough situations in his lifetime of riders getting their feet cause in the stirrups due to improper footig. He said its noy very fun watching some getting dragged by their ankles.


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## Hoofpic

Drafty, I just found a local place who sells Ariats. They start at $200CDN. Yikes.

I called back the tack shop fro mwhere I dropped off my saddle earlier today and asked for the brand on the boots that I tried on.

They are Rio Mercedez. The owner said they go for $700CDN right now with the dollar but hers are on clearance right now for $250CDN. She said its a heck of a deal and doubts I would find a better boot for less money. She said it s one of the few brands that the boots are still made in texas. 

Anyone familiar with Rio Mercedez boots? I will admit they are comfy. I found a size that fit me. Tight around the ankle and top of the foot but the lady said that they will scretch and a lot and if I want to speed up the process, then wear them around my house for a day or two.

I will take a look at the Ariats at the other store and if I dont find anything, I will get the Rio Mercedez from the tack shop when I go pick up my saddle on Wed. 

I just hope this lady isnt trying to upsell me. Im not saying she isnt being honest, but you know how tack stores can be.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> That should be obvious . . .


Because we are on the topic of riding boots (and I hate to bring her up again, but I feel i should this one time). Im not saying you guys are wrong. I know 100% you guys are right, same with my trainer and BO (saying the same thing) that you want smooth soles. 

My outside trainer one day (during our lesson) gauged my composite toe work boots and asked to look at the sole. This is what she said....

"Those boots are fine. You dont want flat soles because your foot can easily slip out of the stirrup. You need grip so this doesnt happen". "The grip and markings on your boots now are perfect, I wouldnt bother with riding boots".


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Those work boots are definitely contributing to your stirrup problem...
> I would just wear the riding boots. Unless you are working with elephants...


i have no doubt the work boots are contributing to my stirrup problem. As well as not having my stirrups turned in. I told my trainer today that I know I can take one foot out and put it back in while at a trot on Fly, it shouldnt be this difficult 

First, having stirrups that I dont need to twist my ankle at a severe angle to get them in, should really really help. It should be a night and day difference.

Second, the riding boots with flat soles should allow me to slip my feet in and out a lot easier. Because right now my work boots are so thick and the grip on the soles do get in the way.

my only concern is that (becuase I have huge stirrups), will these stirrups all of a sudden become too big once I get riding boots in them? Id hate to have to buy a new set of stirrups especially seeing how the ones now are only a couple months old.


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## greentree

What happened to the other stirrups? Real horse people never throw anything away.


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## Dehda01

The outside trainer being the parelli trainer... Who didn't want you to ride and wanted you to stay on the ground and play Liberty games? 

I would rather your foot fall out than get hung up. Period. End of story. You don't HAVE to have a smooth sole, but you don't want a work boot sole. That is too much grip.


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## Golden Horse

I always ride in either my Ariat riding trainers which I LOVE, bought them second hand years and years ago and now I'm crying at the price of new ones, because they are falling apart, but I will be buying another pair for sure. Or I wear my Boulet Ropers which I also love, the Ariats have a small amount of sole texture, the Boulets are smooth, neither makes me loose a stirrup.

I was at the barn one day not expecting to ride wearing my chore Muck Boots, the trainer was putting a ride on my old gelding, and asked me to jump on and see how he felt, I grabbed my helmet and vest and rode him, went to get off and my foot would not come out because of the tread, scared the life out of me. I would rather chance losing a stirrup, than not being able to get a foot out.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> No, no grip is better. If you come off, you don't want anything hindering your foot's ability to come free.
> 
> Some grip is okay, but you don't want heavy tread on the boots.
> 
> What kind of boots are you looking at? You don't need some custom job. Ariats, Justins, or Tony Lamas work just fine. My two favorite pairs of boots are my Ariats and my Justins. The Ariats were $100, the Justins were $150.
> 
> Why don't you look at something like the Ariat Terrain? They look like a hiking boot, but the Terrains are all I rode and worked in for almost five years and I LOVED them. Definitely wanting to get another pair.
> 
> 
> Terrain


thanks. I just found a local store who has stock on the terrains, $149.99CDN. Thats probably the best price and best boot I will find for that money. The big question now is, are the Rio Mercedez worth an extra $100?

I wont like the slip on type and much prefer lace up.

Are those Ariats actually riding boots or are they hiking/all purpose boots but serve as riding boots?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> What happened to the other stirrups? Real horse people never throw anything away.


Im a bit worried but Im 99% certain I have them hanging on one of the racks in my stall. If my current ones are too big, then yes go back to the old ones! Youre a genius, thank you. 

though I will say, when I was at the tack store today, I was looking at the english stlye metal stirrups with thinner footings and wondering if my feet would be more comfortable in these simply because there is a lot less junk in the way and theyre lighter. But i didnt want to spend the $140.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> The outside trainer being the parelli trainer... Who didn't want you to ride and wanted you to stay on the ground and play Liberty games?


Yes, the trainer that didnt think I should be riding Fly because her groundwork had too many holes. She said that her groundwork was so lacking that even she wouldnt ride Fly. She labelled Fly as in the "beginner, phase 1" stage of the Parelli training.

She believed so strongly that Fly wasnt just NOT saddle ready but that she was a huge safety risk for any rider getting on her because she reacts to plastic bags. 



> I would rather your foot fall out than get hung up. Period. End of story. You don't HAVE to have a smooth sole, but you don't want a work boot sole. That is too much grip.


True, good point. And this is exactly what my BO said to me as well a couple months back. You should be able to slip out any foot at ease at any given time. Right now I am having to shake my feet vigourously (and shake them alot), just to get my feet loose, let alone out of the stirrup. It shouldnt be like that. 

My feet should come out as if i was taking off house slippers.


----------



## tinaev

I bought the stirrup turner things at my local tack store for $30 when I was having an issue with the fenders not being turned hurting my knees. It was easy, cheap and fixed my issue perfectly. I'm glad to hear you dropped your saddle off to have them do the twist. Some people are not DIYers and that is ok. I err on the side of using professional services when I am not confident in my abilities because too often I've watched family members DIY stuff that they don't know much about and it winds up costing more in the end to fix or buy new things.

Originally when I began riding I was using cheap lace up boots from Target. I was vain and I hated the look of riding boots. The English style seemed so pretentious while the Western style screamed "lets go line dancin' partner". I just couldn't handle it. The Target boots did fine but when they wore out I decided to get a pair of actual riding boots. I chose a Western style Ariat boot and the first time I rode in them I regretted not buying them sooner. Yes, they were $179 but the immediate comfort and just "rightness" I felt in the saddle in them was totally worth it. Not to mention when Rio steps on me now I can't feel it. I have never ridden in Ariat Terrains but I know a few people that do and they really like them. 

As far as stirrups go I find I like trail stirrups the best. They have a wider base. My endurance riding friends introduced me to them and they are perfect. Right now I am using the stirrups that came on my Australian saddle which are very similar to an English stirrup, just a little wider. They are great and I prefer them to a standard western style stirrup.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I'm not sure how you can't see the difference in western and English boots ..
English usually have like jodhpurs boots and tall boots.. Not actually sure about western I've never ridden in western gear.


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## greentree

It is not physically possible to put an English stirrup on a western saddle .
You could get a padded endurance stirrup, and you would probably really like it, but they are expensive, and I would wait until I was spending hours in the saddle, not minutes, before I made that jump.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I wont like the slip on type and much prefer lace up.


If your foot was caught in a stirrup lace boots are less likely to allow your foot to slide out of the boot. 
I ride in Ariat Lodens. They look like a cool boot when wearing pants & an ugly shoe when you're not. Not sure if they come in guy sizes.


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## Dehda01

Just let go of what the parelli trainer told you. Occasionally, they can actually say something worthwhile but most of the time it is junk. There is a reason he is seen as a snake-oil salesman. 

Most parelli-ites are afraid of their horses and rarely ride. You are done with that stage of your training. 

Now on to the boots... The Ariat terrains are dual purpose shoes. I have a pair and find them comfortable enough to go shopping in and ride with. 

Cowboy boots often have leather soles... Now remember... That might not be the traction you are used to on a wood floor... But once it breaks in a bit and then meets the leather of a stirrup it is pretty good traction. Leather on leather works.


----------



## EliRose

For visual reference, this is what getting hung up means. It is not pretty. And this happened _with_ proper riding boots. Please stop wearing those dangerous boots, you should never, ever have to shake free like that.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> I bought the stirrup turner things at my local tack store for $30 when I was having an issue with the fenders not being turned hurting my knees. It was easy, cheap and fixed my issue perfectly. I'm glad to hear you dropped your saddle off to have them do the twist. Some people are not DIYers and that is ok. I err on the side of using professional services when I am not confident in my abilities because too often I've watched family members DIY stuff that they don't know much about and it winds up costing more in the end to fix or buy new things.


I dont mind DIY for some stuff but depends what. I generally dont mind, but alot of times I live it to others because theyre experts in it. Always been a believer in, do it right, do it once. 



> Originally when I began riding I was using cheap lace up boots from Target. I was vain and I hated the look of riding boots. The English style seemed so pretentious while the Western style screamed "lets go line dancin' partner". I just couldn't handle it. The Target boots did fine but when they wore out I decided to get a pair of actual riding boots. I chose a Western style Ariat boot and the first time I rode in them I regretted not buying them sooner. Yes, they were $179 but the immediate comfort and just "rightness" I felt in the saddle in them was totally worth it. Not to mention when Rio steps on me now I can't feel it. I have never ridden in Ariat Terrains but I know a few people that do and they really like them.


Im pretty sold on these Ariats. You guys have convinced me
Ill go try a pair on tomorrow and see how they compare to the Rio Mercedez.



> As far as stirrups go I find I like trail stirrups the best. They have a wider base. My endurance riding friends introduced me to them and they are perfect. Right now I am using the stirrups that came on my Australian saddle which are very similar to an English stirrup, just a little wider. They are great and I prefer them to a standard western style stirrup.


Didnt know there was such thing as trail stirrups.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I'm not sure how you can't see the difference in western and English boots ..
> English usually have like jodhpurs boots and tall boots.. Not actually sure about western I've never ridden in western gear.


No what I mean is I cant tell the difference between english and western boots in terms of feel.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> No what I mean is I cant tell the difference between english and western boots in terms of feel.


Still don't understand, they look different, feel different, everything is different 
Save​


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## 6gun Kid

Mercedes boots are nice, really nice. Honestly, too nice to stomp around the barn in. If i were you I would just buy some inexpensive, roper style boots. Double h, diamond j , or such.


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## Skyseternalangel

what is "putting the twist in" mean, like they alter the fender permanently without wetting it down? What makes it more secure?
@Golden Horse


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> It is not physically possible to put an English stirrup on a western saddle .
> You could get a padded endurance stirrup, and you would probably really like it, but they are expensive, and I would wait until I was spending hours in the saddle, not minutes, before I made that jump.


I know this sounds crazy but if I find a good deal on a wintec english saddle, Im going to get one. Im curious as to how much different it would be riding english than western. I do prefer the lighter weight of the english saddles.

If I have to get another saddle down the road (from Fly's shape changing), lets hope this isnt anytime soon...I would consider an endurance western saddle. I like how low profile they are. Though my saddle now is considered light for an older saddle (still havent weighed it, but i still believe its 30-35lbs max). Its still a PITA to lift. Its like a block of ice. Its cumbersome and heavy.

Only thing is, Im guessing I cant use my Classic Equine mohair cinch or my diamond contour pad on the english saddle can I? Spent $300 for the pad and $150 for the cinch lol.

I will say though, this Diamond pad and this Classic Equine cinch (though pricey) were well worth the money. Can't underestimate the important of quality cinch and pad. Im very thankful that you guys talked me into getting a good cinch and pad and paying more. I went the route of a cheaper old saddle, but higher end pad and cinch. I still think I hit the jackpot with this saddle. Im very happy with it for the low price I paid. No complaints and its 1000 times more comfortable than the lesson one I was using on the lesson mare before.


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## Golden Horse

Skyseternalangel said:


> what is "putting the twist in" mean, like they alter the fender permanently without wetting it down? What makes it more secure?
> @*Golden Horse*


Here you go How to Twist and Turn Stirrup Leathers, Also called Nevada, Hamley, Arizona or Cowboy Twist: How to Twist & Wrap Your Stirrup Leathers on a Western Saddle


also a sticky on this forum, that's the instructions I used to do mine, they never would take a 'broom handle' twist, and hold it.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/turning-western-stirrups-17669/


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> If your foot was caught in a stirrup lace boots are less likely to allow your foot to slide out of the boot.
> I ride in Ariat Lodens. They look like a cool boot when wearing pants & an ugly shoe when you're not. Not sure if they come in guy sizes.


Thats the feeling I got when I tried on the Rio Mercedez boots on today. No lace, no ridges on the sole, no ridges on the boot itself. It would be near impossible for this boot to get caught in a stirrup.

Here is a pic of the boots I tried on today. $250CDN on clearance.

Really really nice boot. Would be curious how much of a difference I would see in myself and feel with these in the saddle.










I think my biggest concern with these is the pointy toes. I generally cant stand any boots with pointy toes. I know for the dress boots, I find them incredibly uncomfortable to walk in, as they just feel unnatural. Maybe riding is a difference case?


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

Synthetic western saddles could be something to keep in mind if you want a lighter weight saddle in the future. I have one and it weighs a little over 15 pounds.

Barrel saddles are also usually pretty light. I have one of those, too, and it weighs less than 25 pounds.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Just let go of what the parelli trainer told you. Occasionally, they can actually say something worthwhile but most of the time it is junk. There is a reason he is seen as a snake-oil salesman.
> 
> Most parelli-ites are afraid of their horses and rarely ride. You are done with that stage of your training.
> 
> Now on to the boots... The Ariat terrains are dual purpose shoes. I have a pair and find them comfortable enough to go shopping in and ride with.
> 
> Cowboy boots often have leather soles... Now remember... That might not be the traction you are used to on a wood floor... But once it breaks in a bit and then meets the leather of a stirrup it is pretty good traction. Leather on leather works.


Thanks. If I go with the Ariat Terrains, it would be for two reasons. 

1) $100 less than the Rio Mercedez
2) More comfy.

Im really looking forward to trying them on tomorrow at the store. Im guessing it will be miles better than my work boots.

Remember, riding in these composite plate boots wasnt my preference. The only reason why I even got these (about 8 or 9 months ago), was because remember, I was getting my baby toes crunched. Fly crunched the same baby twwo twice and the other baby toe once shortly after getting to the new barn. I was just having some serious bad luck. Im still very lucky I didnt have them broken, but boy was it painful, especially after you get that injured toe crunched on again. 

But since then, I have made it a habit of keeping my feet always active when around Fly. I keep them like hot potatoes so that way she gets nowhere near my toes and I react a lot faster now.
Havent had any more toe injuries since. Am I confident getting out of the composite toe work boots? Yes. But I feel so comfortable in them as well. Plus theyre waterproof so no more wet socks. Not fun with ice cold feet in the winter when walking through snow.

Whatever riding boots I get, I will only wear when riding. I will keep them at the barn in my stall.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Rider dragged by stirrup - YouTube
> 
> For visual reference, this is what getting hung up means. It is not pretty. And this happened _with_ proper riding boots. Please stop wearing those dangerous boots, you should never, ever have to shake free like that.


So getting your foot stuck in the stirrup can still happen even with proper riding boots on?


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Still don't understand, they look different, feel different, everything is different
> Save​


They both felt tight to me. Maybe its because I havent ridden in them before, only walked around the store with them on.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Mercedes boots are nice, really nice. Honestly, too nice to stomp around the barn in. If i were you I would just buy some inexpensive, roper style boots. Double h, diamond j , or such.


Well the owner at the tack shop said these Mercedes boots are $700 new. Should that be a factor?

Right now, Id say im most likely going to get the Ariat Terrains. Too many positive things said about it on here  And cant beat it for $150.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> EliRose said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rider dragged by stirrup - YouTube
> 
> For visual reference, this is what getting hung up means. It is not pretty. And this happened _with_ proper riding boots. Please stop wearing those dangerous boots, you should never, ever have to shake free like that.
> 
> 
> 
> So getting your foot stuck in the stirrup can still happen even with proper riding boots on?
Click to expand...

Of course it can... But it makes it more likely with dangerous foot wear


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Of course it can... But it makes it more likely with dangerous foot wear


Im really excited to finally be in riding boots now . I should have done this many months ago.


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## Hoofpic

Me getting on her today. One of our better days. She stood for me tightening the cinch, then me getting on all in one.

I would have loved to praise and reward her after but really you cant for something like this. By the time you get on, its already too late.


I would like more of these. How can I build from this?!! This is exactly what I want from her. Even yesterday went fairly well. Yesterday and today she has shown significant improvement.






Golden,

Was speaking with my trainer today on what she has planned for me to do in the next while. Getting me to the bend and reach for the tail, toes excersize is one of them!


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## Dehda01

Of course you can praise her at that point! I get on my greenie and just sit with her a while when I get on. She gets her neck scratched. We flex a bit, and she WAITS. Sometimes two minutes, sometimes five. I turn around and scratch her croup. And she learns patience. Because she needs to learn to wait for me to tell her to walk on. And since she has done this since our 4th ride, and we are getting close to our 30th, she knows our routine. And she will stand like a stone until I am ready. 

Every time you ride you are teaching your horse what you want from them, whether you realize it or not. I praise my horse liberally when I ride them and they do the right thing, and it boosts their confidence. It can be as simply as a verbal yes, and rub down the shoulder, or a full on pat. But they need to know they are doing right. For some of the really hard things, I even pull out a sugar cube. 

The Arian terrains may be wider in the foot than a cowboy boot... Or not. So you may want to pay attention to that before you buy them.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Are those Ariats actually riding boots or are they hiking/all purpose boots but serve as riding boots?


I like to say that they're a crossover boot. They can be used for both riding and hiking, but they are firstly designed as a riding boot. I wore mine with half chaps because I was riding in an Aussie saddle with English-style leathers, so the half chaps protected my leg from getting pinched.

Not sure about on the men's version, but on the women's are MUCH more narrow than my FatBaby's are, and my FatBaby's don't have that wide of a toe (I've ridden in my Aussie saddle with English irons on it in my FatBaby's before).


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## greentree

You build on that by reaching down and touching your toes, fixing your stirrups, reaching forward and petting her on the head between the ears, reaching back and straightening her tail, etc.....ALL before taking ONE step. All of this is praise for her!!

I cannot watch the video, but just going by your commentary....


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Thats the feeling I got when I tried on the Rio Mercedez boots on today. No lace, no ridges on the sole, no ridges on the boot itself. It would be near impossible for this boot to get caught in a stirrup.
> 
> Here is a pic of the boots I tried on today. $250CDN on clearance.
> 
> Really really nice boot. Would be curious how much of a difference I would see in myself and feel with these in the saddle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think my biggest concern with these is the pointy toes. I generally cant stand any boots with pointy toes. I know for the dress boots, I find them incredibly uncomfortable to walk in, as they just feel unnatural. Maybe riding is a difference case?


 This pair right here? This is the exact pair you tried on? Those are Caiman or Crocodile, totally out of place for the barn. Wearing those to ride in, would be like wearing a tuxedo to work in a coal mine. Just go buy you a hundred dollar pair of ropers just for riding. They aren't pointy toed and they have a heel and a slick sole.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, Your mounting is sloppy---you nudged in the side as you were swinging up, cueing her to move. Pay attention to what your legs are doing or use a mounting block. You should also shorten the left rein so she's circling around you if she moves---you should have light contact when mounting or better would be to teach her "Stand" which means do not move until I cue you to. 


At least when I bought my Terrains, there were 2 different soles available, one for riding and one for hiking. The hiking Terrains had heavier tread. Both hubby and I wear the riding Terrains on trails because they are comfy for both riding and hiking----gives us the opportunity to hop off after 8+ hours of riding about a mile from camp and walk the horse back to help cool them out and loosen the cinch a few times so their backs get some air flow. Terrains also come in a waterproof version if you need something that is better in wet conditions.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Of course you can praise her at that point! I get on my greenie and just sit with her a while when I get on. She gets her neck scratched. We flex a bit, and she WAITS. Sometimes two minutes, sometimes five. I turn around and scratch her croup. And she learns patience. Because she needs to learn to wait for me to tell her to walk on. And since she has done this since our 4th ride, and we are getting close to our 30th, she knows our routine. And she will stand like a stone until I am ready.
> 
> Every time you ride you are teaching your horse what you want from them, whether you realize it or not. I praise my horse liberally when I ride them and they do the right thing, and it boosts their confidence. It can be as simply as a verbal yes, and rub down the shoulder, or a full on pat. But they need to know they are doing right. For some of the really hard things, I even pull out a sugar cube.
> 
> The Arian terrains may be wider in the foot than a cowboy boot... Or not. So you may want to pay attention to that before you buy them.


A big reason I didnt scratch her and say GOOD GIRL out loud as soon as I got on is because as soon as I got on, she starts immediately walking and I have to pull the reins back and tell her WOAH. So that kinda spoils it for us. I have been working on this with her, but I dont think she has gotten it yet. I give back pressure on the reins, tell her WOAH. She woahs and stands. I let a few secs pass, give her a scratch, say good girl. Then she will start walking off again. 

I did give her a scratch though, just before getting on, told her told stand and she did, have her a scratch.

My trainer is going to work with me on getting me to reach for my toes, reach for the stirrups to slide my feet in them (though after getting the stirrups turned, I might not need to do this), reaching for her tail. Cant remember what else there was. Its been a few months since I did this on the lesson mare. But this will really help the both of us gain confidence and it will be a good experience for her feeling her riding move while on her, but just because Im moving on her, it doesnt mean to walk on. 

She just has so much energy, as soon as you get on her, she says to me "cmon lets get going".

Just like how Im teaching her that she cannot go from a trot to a walk on her own. If she does this, I will tell her to trot again for a few more steps, then I sit back, then say walk. She cannot go from a trot to a walk until I sit back on her and say walk.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I like to say that they're a crossover boot. They can be used for both riding and hiking, but they are firstly designed as a riding boot. I wore mine with half chaps because I was riding in an Aussie saddle with English-style leathers, so the half chaps protected my leg from getting pinched.
> 
> Not sure about on the men's version, but on the women's are MUCH more narrow than my FatBaby's are, and my FatBaby's don't have that wide of a toe (I've ridden in my Aussie saddle with English irons on it in my FatBaby's before).


Thanks. Im most likely going to buy a pair today. Confident I will be happy with them. 

Im guessing many can mistaken them for hiking boots because of how they look? 

Obviously its not your typical look for boots when in say clinics or shows, but I dont care.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, that is NOT an energetic mare, and she's about as placid as they come. Stop assuming that because she's interested in what is going on around her and that she's moves because your body has told her to since you aren't really balance that she is reactive and energetic. She's reflecting you! 


Horses work off 4 basic natural aids.......weight, seat, legs and core. Until you have full control of each of these and can use them independently of each other and in various combinations, YOU are sending her confusing cues, which is what she is reflecting when she walks off and slows down or speeds up----You are not a balanced rider in synch with her gaits.


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## Dehda01

I have Arabs. We regularly ride 15-20 miles on a ride. Believe me when I say they want to go when I get on. They are fit, and I have them conditioned so we can do it cantering and trotting and getting their HR down after quickly. So even at rides, when there are a bunch of excited, hot horses and adrenaline and horse sweat running already, my horses STILL need to stand for me to mount. But we PRACTICE it!!! If the make a mistake, we do it again. I don't like being walked or run off on. 

Mounting is a place where a person is in a dangerous place 1/2 on and off. So they can learn how to be safe to mount. If they can't stand, they arent ready to ride. 

She doesn't have that much energy, she just is being rude. Flex her head slightly to your knee to make her less likely to walk off. When you get on her, don't let her walk off. Flex her if you need to. Make her stand. Praise her liberally why she does. And then just stand there. Let her rest. And then when she rest and settles, then allow her to walk off... When it is your decision.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You build on that by reaching down and touching your toes, fixing your stirrups, reaching forward and petting her on the head between the ears, reaching back and straightening her tail, etc.....ALL before taking ONE step. All of this is praise for her!!
> 
> I cannot watch the video, but just going by your commentary....


Im just curious. I can see reaching forward and petting her on the head between her ears or reaching back and scratching her butt is a reward and praise for her. But how would something like me reaching down for my stirrups praise? I could be wrong on this. But this is what I think. As soon as Fly feels my weight shift forward a bit trying to reach for my stirrup, she sees it as a que to walk on. Which right now, thats what she sees it as, but obviously I dont want her to.

Im not sure if the previous owner did any of this kind of stuff on Fly when she had her. My guess is no. Thats just my prediction.

I cant wait until my trainer and I work on this. My guess is it will be within the next couple weeks. Im confident that I can do all this but obviously things will go alot smoother with my trainer helping me.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> This pair right here? This is the exact pair you tried on? Those are Caiman or Crocodile, totally out of place for the barn. Wearing those to ride in, would be like wearing a tuxedo to work in a coal mine. Just go buy you a hundred dollar pair of ropers just for riding. They aren't pointy toed and they have a heel and a slick sole.


Yes that is the pair I tried on. Would you say those boots are more for like shows? I think they would get really mucky very quickly when at the barn. I will just get a pair of Ariat Terrains.


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## Prairie

@Dehda01, look at the video against. Hoofpic nudged the mare in the side as he was mounting......I'm sure even my grandkids' been there, done there mare would move if one of them kicked her in the side as she mounted and that old mare is a babysitter deluxe who's never made a misstep in the almost 5 years they've had her. Now the old girl is teaching those kids the art of cutting and doing a great job of that too.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, Your mounting is sloppy---you nudged in the side as you were swinging up, cueing her to move. Pay attention to what your legs are doing or use a mounting block. You should also shorten the left rein so she's circling around you if she moves---you should have light contact when mounting or better would be to teach her "Stand" which means do not move until I cue you to.
> 
> 
> At least when I bought my Terrains, there were 2 different soles available, one for riding and one for hiking. The hiking Terrains had heavier tread. Both hubby and I wear the riding Terrains on trails because they are comfy for both riding and hiking----gives us the opportunity to hop off after 8+ hours of riding about a mile from camp and walk the horse back to help cool them out and loosen the cinch a few times so their backs get some air flow. Terrains also come in a waterproof version if you need something that is better in wet conditions.


You cant expect my mounting to be perfect. I know Im not the greatest. A big part is that I hate wearing jeans as Ive never found them uncomfortable. I would love to find another set of pants to wear for riding that is much more comfortable. IMO jeans when riding is like running in dress pants. 

Im glad that you told me that there are two versions of the Terrains, a riding version and a hiking version. 

The local store that has them for $149 are these ones. Looks to be the hikers.

https://www.lammles.com/product_info.php/products_id/2086

I would want the riders version, now that you mention it has less tread. Are those labelled the endurance boots?


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Im guessing many can mistaken them for hiking boots because of how they look?
> 
> Obviously its not your typical look for boots when in say clinics or shows, but I dont care.


Why does it matter? 1-You're not going to be showing any time soon. 2-I bet there's a lot more people than you think wearing something similar to the Terrains for clinics. Heck, I used to wear mine to work.



Hoofpic said:


> You cant expect my mounting to be perfect. I know Im not the greatest.


No, we don't expect your mounting to be perfect. What we do expect is for you to acknowledge your part in cuing her forward when you swing up and your leg flops all over the place, instead of placing the blame--yet again--solely on Fly for being antsy, or rude, or full of energy, or whatever the excuse-dejour is today. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, how many lessons have you had? My young grandkids could properly mount their 16.2 hand paint mare without kicking her in the side on their second lesson and they had to jump to grab the saddle horn to scramble up there. You're much taller than those kids and your mare is 8 inches shorter! If you don't have the physical strength to mount smoothly, start a good exercise program to develop the muscles needed. Work on your coordination by "riding" a barrel or ball. A dedicated rider works on himself off of the horse to develop the strength and coordination to improve his riding too.


Stop making excuses for your failures-----the only way to improve in riding is to accept that you have a lot to work on and get to work on improving those areas. If your jeans aren't comfortable, find a brand and style that is---look into some that have some stretch if you find them binding.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Prairie said:


> Stop making excuses for your failures-----the only way to improve in riding is to accept that you have a lot to work on and get to work on improving those areas. If your jeans aren't comfortable, find a brand and style that is---look into some that have some stretch if you find them binding.


YES!!! A million times, YES!!!!!! :clap:

Or, invest in some breeches. They make boot-cut britches. Besides, it's not like you should care what anyone thinks of what you're wearing. You're not showing. If it's comfortable, wear it. STOP CARING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE AND FOCUS ON YOU AND YOUR MARE.


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## Hoofpic

Im not making excuses. When you said I tapped Fly on the side. I just dont see it. I bring up the pants issue because jeans for me isnt an issue. You can accuse me all you want for me making excuses but Im not trying to. Jeans + big thick work boots Im almost certain doesnt help my cause when getting on her. Let me get new boots and new pants and see how much more comfortable I am getting on her.

I got on her one time with shorts on and I immediately could tell how much easier it was to get on and off her, with me haaving shorts on instead of jeans.


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## Hoofpic

You know what Im going to do? Im going to go shopping for a nice pair of cargo pants. I use to have a really comfy pair but it got ripped. They were a billion times more comfortable than any pair of jeans ive owned.


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## Dehda01

Don't ride in shorts!!! You will get such chafes. 

Try mounting from the mounting block. Just because you can mount from the ground, doesn't mean that you should. Particularly until you are strong in your legs and core. 

You need to control your leg so that you don't hit her, and you can do that better when you are mounting just a bit higher. Keep you foot twisted forward, not pointed in. I often have may foot nearly sideways on the left outside of the foot, until I am ready to get up. I will try to use a mounting block nearly all the time if I can, even though I can mount from the ground fine although on my 16.2h horse it is a bit of a hop. 

Fly is smaller mare and you may swing a bit trying to get up on her because she is a smaller bodied horse. She may need to shift her weight trying to balance under you. I find the mounting block makes it easier for smaller horses. Studies have shown that saddles puts an incredible amount of pressure on the wither, back and girth area as you mount. Which may make her walk off even more.


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## Dehda01

Cargo pants with bunch up and wrinkle and probably not be a good thing. You don't want loose pants. Jeans with a flat seam are good, I like stretch riding jeans or breeches. I have gotten some terrible chafes and rubs with loose fitting jeans or cargo pants when I wasn't paying attention or though I was just jumping on for a short ride. 

But, trust me when I tell you, saddle sores are not fun. My husband prefers to ride in wrangler jeans.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Yes that is the pair I tried on. Would you say those boots are more for like shows? I think they would get really mucky very quickly when at the barn. I will just get a pair of Ariat Terrains.


I'd say those boots are more for dancing, or church.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> I'd say those boots are more for dancing, or church.


Yikes. And they market them as riding boots? I cant imagine how anyone can find those boots comfortable in the saddle? Im glad you talked me out of it. Though I was never 100% convinced they were for me simply cause of the pointed toes.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Don't ride in shorts!!! You will get such chafes.
> 
> Try mounting from the mounting block. Just because you can mount from the ground, doesn't mean that you should. Particularly until you are strong in your legs and core.
> 
> You need to control your leg so that you don't hit her, and you can do that better when you are mounting just a bit higher. Keep you foot twisted forward, not pointed in. I often have may foot nearly sideways on the left outside of the foot, until I am ready to get up. I will try to use a mounting block nearly all the time if I can, even though I can mount from the ground fine although on my 16.2h horse it is a bit of a hop.
> 
> Fly is smaller mare and you may swing a bit trying to get up on her because she is a smaller bodied horse. She may need to shift her weight trying to balance under you. I find the mounting block makes it easier for smaller horses. Studies have shown that saddles puts an incredible amount of pressure on the wither, back and girth area as you mount. Which may make her walk off even more.


When I rode in shorts, it was accidental. I went to the barn one day and wasnt planning on riding. It wasnt a lesson, just a brief walk around barrels and logs and such. But yes, my trainer mentioned it that the reason why shorts are suggested is because your legs will rub against the saddle.

Mounting Fly from the block isnt a bad idea at all. Ive been aware that mounting from the ground is hard on a horses body. Can it be damaging in the long run? Say I was a 80lb kid, would getting on Fly from the ground still be hard on her body?

I dont want Fly to suffer from any long term effects from me getting on her from the ground.

I just need to be able to lift my right leg higher up when getting over her. Same when getting off. Cause often my right leg will rub up against the saddle when I lift it over.

If it was me? I would get on and off her from the mounting block each time I ride her. Not because for my sake. But so it puts the least amount of strain on her when I get on and off her. Afterall, Im not exactly a light rider for her to be carrying on her back. Me 160lbs even, plus the saddle (30-40lbs), so thats 200lbs on her back.

I miss those days when I was 5'11, 120lbs.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Yikes. And they market them as riding boots? I cant imagine how anyone can find those boots comfortable in the saddle? Im glad you talked me out of it. Though I was never 100% convinced they were for me simply cause of the pointed toes.


I don't think they are marketed so much as riding boots, as western boots.


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## Hoofpic

When I say cargo pants, these are what im thinking. But with no back pockets and big thinner. For me, a comfortable pair of pants is a pair that I feel like lounging around the house in, going to sleep in. Nothing beats sweatpants or couch loungers, but obviously you cant wear those when riding

Though I prefer baggier pants, I do agree that they are not ideal for riding. 










I rode the lesson mare once in my track pants and I found them so much more comfy than jeans. But track pants arent ideal because they dont have a belt clip.


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## Dehda01

Briefs, jeans that have flat seams, are not baggy but are spacious enough that you can squat in them there are certain things I can't comment about with male anatomy and riding but those are the notes my husband has offered me for male riders you need to be able lift your leg over the saddle. You want relaxed fit jeans.


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## Dehda01

See all those wrinkles down the leg...on the cargo pants. That can offer really nasty saddle sores as it bunches up under your leg.


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## Dehda01

Actually, sweat pants are fine for beginner riders just starting out. They don't rub and riders can decide they are serious or not before they decide to spend money or not.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> *Say I was a 80lb kid, would getting on Fly from the ground still be hard on her body?*
> 
> _If it was me? I would get on and off her from the mounting block each time I ride her._


Regarding the first part in bold...you're not an 80lbs kid, so it doesn't matter. Quit trying to analyze everything to death.

Regarding the second part in italics...WHO, exactly, is preventing you from using a mounting block with YOUR horse? Don't say your trainer because that's absolute bull****. She cannot dictate what you do or don't do with your horse, any more than your BO can. 

My gelding is 17hh and 1500lbs. Even with you being 6'2", I'd make you use a mounting block getting on him. Why? Because it's easier on his back to not have someone flailing like a dying fish, trying to get on him. There is ZERO shame in using a mounting block. Anybody who says differently has way too much ego and shouldn't be around horses.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> I don't think they are marketed so much as riding boots, as western boots.


I can see someone in showmanship competitions wearing them to ride. But they just seem over the top for at the barn. Boots are meant to get dirty and banged up, Id hate to have to clean those every 2 rides. 

They would look best if you are out at a show and are a bit styled up. To me they look like western dress shoes, not riding shoes. One thing my riding boots need to be able to handle is horse poop. I always use the side of my feet to shovel poop onto the poop shovellers at the barn. Id hate to do that with such nice boots like those.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Briefs, jeans that have flat seams, are not baggy but are spacious enough that you can squat in them there are certain things I can't comment about with male anatomy and riding but those are the notes my husband has offered me for male riders *you need to be able lift your leg over the saddle. You want relaxed fit jeans.*


If thats the case, then Im the only one to blame because the jeans that ive been wearing all along are not comfortable at all.They relaxed fit but are snug around the waist, too snug. I dont even feel comfortable sitting on a chair in them let alone a saddle and trotting in them.

These girls that I see who ride in tight jeans. How do they do it? Cause tightness around the waist really limits your leg mobility IMO.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> If thats the case, then Im the only one to blame because the jeans that ive been wearing all along are not comfortable at all.They relaxed fit but are snug around the waist, too snug. I dont even feel comfortable sitting on a chair in them let alone a saddle and trotting in them.
> 
> These girls that I see who ride in tight jeans. How do they do it? Cause tightness around the waist really limits your leg mobility IMO.


Women's jeans are made differently. Our jeans usually have a bit of spandex in them to add stretch. They also are designed to fit and flare around our curves. If you look at a pair of women's jeans laying flat on a bed, there will be a bit of a curve to the outside of the hips/thigh area. Men's jeans are straight, regardless of the cut/style. This is why the majority of women (unless they have no hips or ***) can't wear men's jeans. Even when I was MUCH slimmer, I couldn't wear men's jeans or pants. I have too many curves.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Actually, sweat pants are fine for beginner riders just starting out. They don't rub and riders can decide they are serious or not before they decide to spend money or not.


Id have to ask, not sure if my trainer would allow sweatpants. If I could ride in anything, my choice would be trackpants. There is a reason why people and althletes play sports in althetic attire, because nothing can compare to it for comfort IMO. The material is thin, lightweight and breathes and you have full mobility. When Im out of the house, Im always either in trackpants and runners simply cause theyre the most comfortable. I never wear jeans ever.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Im not making excuses. .


But you do the whole time...and you need to get over it, anyone of us who posts a video of ourselves doing anything, will have issues pointed out, it's just the way riding is, you rarely get it all right. So nobody is expecting you to be any more than the beginner you are, but there are certain things that we thought you would have nailed by now.

Mounting blocks: I always use one, I'm old, fat and my knees are shot, and I ride bigger horses, but I have actually always used one, because I believe it is better for the horse if I do. It also focuses horse and rider on actually standing still in one spot, no tendency to creep, you have to keep her in the right spot.



> I can see someone in showmanship competitions wearing them to ride. But they just seem over the top for at the barn. Boots are meant to get dirty and banged up, Id hate to have to clean those every 2 rides.


Really, you were thinking of buying them yesterday, that it is a great over night conversion...

As to pants to ride in, stretch jeans all the way for me, easy to move in, no wrinkles of fabric getting under your leg,


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## Hoofpic

This is what Ive been riding in all along. Just in all black.

All weather, weather proof boots that have insultation that could handle as low as -48C. Amazingly comfy. Paid $150 for them last October.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Horrible boot for riding in. I bet they're heavy as hell, too. I get that you live in Canada where it gets cold, but geez, dude!


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## Dehda01

Women's jeans have a significant amount of spandex added so that they can be tight but still can move with us. Men's jeans don't have spandex added. You need looser jeans. You should be able to stretch and bend easily. I regularly stretch my leg up to the highest rung of the round pen panel and you really don't want anything pinching. 

Those are very bulky boots.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I can see someone in showmanship competitions wearing them to ride. But they just seem over the top for at the barn. Boots are meant to get dirty and banged up, Id hate to have to clean those every 2 rides.
> 
> They would look best if you are out at a show and are a bit styled up. To me they look like western dress shoes, not riding shoes. One thing my riding boots need to be able to handle is horse poop. I always use the side of my feet to shovel poop onto the poop shovellers at the barn. Id hate to do that with such nice boots like those.


. . . You do remember you thought they were fine a few hours ago, right? Weren't too over the top then . . .

Just use a dang mounting block. Better for your mare's skeletal wellbeing. Weren't you talking about your massage and chiro appointments? I'm sure properly mounting would help.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Regarding the first part in bold...you're not an 80lbs kid, so it doesn't matter. Quit trying to analyze everything to death.
> 
> Regarding the second part in italics...WHO, exactly, is preventing you from using a mounting block with YOUR horse? Don't say your trainer because that's absolute bull****. She cannot dictate what you do or don't do with your horse, any more than your BO can.
> 
> My gelding is 17hh and 1500lbs. Even with you being 6'2", I'd make you use a mounting block getting on him. Why? Because it's easier on his back to not have someone flailing like a dying fish, trying to get on him. There is ZERO shame in using a mounting block. Anybody who says differently has way too much ego and shouldn't be around horses.


When I rode a gelding last year, I used a mounting block, everytime. Because Im tall, I had no trouble getting on without a block. They were 15hh. Now, when I rode the 18hh gelding, it was hard getting on him from the ground. Even just getting my left foot in the stirrup was a challenge but my trainer at the time made me do it. I did not have enough strength in my left leg to prop myself up so I had to grab onto the mane. But because Fly is 14.2hh, I should have no problem getting on her. The good news is that I do have enough strength in my left leg to prop myself up her and without grabbing her mane. But the trickiest part for me is getting enough flexibility in being able to lift my right leg high enough so it goes right over her rump without touching it. To do this, you need very good flexibility in your legs. 

But the question is, will it have any long term effects on the horse?

I never said that my trainer wouldnt let me use a block. Shes just never brought it up with me. Even with the lesson mare, she always had me get on her from the ground. Its probably because im tall, I dont know. But from what Ive seen, with just about every one else of her riders, she gets them to use the block (though mind you a lot of them are kids).

I will bring this up with my trainer when I see her next. I will just tell her that I want to experiment and try getting on Fly at the block and see if im more comfortable doing it that way. She will ask why and I will just say that I need to get on her more smoothly.


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## Dehda01

Track pants fall under the too loose category. Many of them have mesh lining that would eat your legs up.


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## Golden Horse

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Horrible boot for riding in. I bet they're heavy as hell, too. I get that you live in Canada where it gets cold, but geez, dude!


The Ariats are actually quite warm, I wear cowboy boots all summer, then switch to the Ariats and half chaps for the winter, I have ridden at -30*C in them.


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## EliRose

Yes, it will. You're slamming around on their SPINE.


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## Hoofpic

A couple months ago I went to get my back adjusted at my chiro. He mentioned that he noticed that my calves and inner legs (above the knees) wwere tight. He asked if I excersize or play sports. I said no, but I ride my horse. He is familiar with what muscles are used, what muscles get tight in riding. He said if I can work out the tenseness in my upper legs, the better off ill be in the saddle. 

Is there tightness in my upper legs and calves? Yes. I even still get sore after each ride. Not terribly, but its still there. I used to be really sore when I first starting riding. My legs were really out of shape. I have chicken legs with not much muscle. And I know (like my trainer said), when you trot, the leg muscle that gets worked the most is the inner high (usually your weakest part of your legs because its used the least often). I do feel that my inner thighs have gotten stronger since i have starting ridding though which is good.But I think if I can loosen these up and keep them from getting too tight, it should help me a lot in my overall flexibility and movement. So perhaps, I should consider making another trip back to my chiro for some work done to my legs. I know not everyone on here believes in chiro but I do because Ive had chiro done on me for years and I heal really well from it.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> *If it was me?* I would get on and off her from the mounting block each time I ride her.





Hoofpic said:


> When I rode a gelding last year, I used a mounting block, everytime. Because Im tall, I had no trouble getting on without a block. They were 15hh. Now, when I rode the 18hh gelding, it was hard getting on him from the ground. Even just getting my left foot in the stirrup was a challenge but my trainer at the time made me do it. But because Fly is 14.2hh, I should have no problem getting on her.
> 
> But the question is, will it have any long term effects on the horse?
> 
> I never said that my trainer wouldnt let me use a block. Shes just never brought it up with me. Even with the lesson mare, she always had me get on her from the ground. Its probably because im tall, I dont know. But from what Ive seen, with just about every one else of her riders, she gets them to use the block (though mind you a lot of them are kids).
> 
> I will bring this up with my trainer when I see her next. I will just tell her that I want to experiment and try getting on Fly at the block and see if im more comfortable doing it that way. She will ask why and I will just say that I need to get on her more smoothly.


In bold are your exact words, implying that _someone_ is preventing you from using a block to mount her.

And of course it's going to cause problems with her back! Think of the mechanics of it. She's 800lbs. You're 160lbs. All that weight pulling to one side as you mount is going to cause issues. 

Go back and watch the way you mount. Then watch someone like Chris Cox or Clinton Anderson mount from the ground. Just keep watching it until you see the difference.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Horrible boot for riding in. I bet they're heavy as hell, too. I get that you live in Canada where it gets cold, but geez, dude!


Yes theyre heavy. But remember, when I bought those boots, I bought them to protect my healing toes, not for my riding. I thought at the time, perhaps it would be servicable in the stirrups but obviously it is not. 

But at least now I know.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Golden Horse said:


> The Ariats are actually quite warm, I wear cowboy boots all summer, then switch to the Ariats and half chaps for the winter, I have ridden at -30*C in them.


I was tipping frozen water buckets to empty them one winter. It was snowing out, so was probably around 28-30*F. My foot slipped off the rung of the stall panel I was perched on and I sank up to my knee in icy water. The only thing that didn't get soaked was my foot...encased in my cozy Terrains. I also used to have to slog through a 10-inch deep mud puddle to get to the turnouts to bring horses in. My feet always stayed dry and toasty in my Terrains. They weren't even the waterproof H2Os, either!


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> . . . You do remember you thought they were fine a few hours ago, right? Weren't too over the top then . . .
> 
> Just use a dang mounting block. Better for your mare's skeletal wellbeing. Weren't you talking about your massage and chiro appointments? I'm sure properly mounting would help.


I was never sold on those Rio Mercedez. They look nice but the pointy toes was never to my liking. The only advantage I saw from them is no laces.

I know mounting from a block vs the ground is always a topic up for debate. I see it all the time in clinics and shows, riders mounting from the ground all the time. Now, I dont know who told me this and Im not saying this person is right. But they said that if you do it properly and are quick in getting on and off....mounting or dismounting from the ground wont put any strain on a horse. They also say, as long as you arent over their weight load that the horse can carry, you are okay. They said the reason most people use a block is because of the added height and it makes it easier for them to get on. 

I dont mind using a block for now on, even when outside. Now, I dont think Fly has been taught before to stand at a block but getting her to stand at a block shouldnt be any different than me holding the reins and getting her to stand from the ground right?

I will mention this to my trainer. She will probably be a bit puzzled as to why I want to do this but ill just tell her that i feel im not properly getting on Fly from the ground.

If anything, Im just curious as to why Im the only person (or one of the few) riders at the barn who mounts from the ground. Maybe she just thinks i dont need a block because Im tall. 

The one thing that I dont like, when getting off a horse from the ground is when you get off. You put all your weight onto their withers and shoulders as you lean forward to lift your leg back to get off. I would think this would be much worse for a horse than getting on. But thats just my opinion.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Yes, it will. You're slamming around on their SPINE.


I dont see how im slamming around on her spine. I dont get up and just crash right down on her. I try to be as gentle as I can when lowering my weight onto her. Maybe someone can point it out for me.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> In bold are your exact words, implying that _someone_ is preventing you from using a block to mount her.
> 
> And of course it's going to cause problems with her back! Think of the mechanics of it. She's 800lbs. You're 160lbs. All that weight pulling to one side as you mount is going to cause issues.
> 
> Go back and watch the way you mount. Then watch someone like Chris Cox or Clinton Anderson mount from the ground. Just keep watching it until you see the difference.


The difference I see between CA getting on a horse from the ground and me (even my trainer would fall into CA category since she does it well) is that they get on a lot quicker and basically as soon as their foot is in the stirrup, they use the strength of that one leg to spring themselves up. So its smooth and seamless.


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## DraftyAiresMum

The strength is coming from their leg planted on the ground. Basically, they're vaulting into the saddle with one foot already in the stirrup, then once they get to the apex of the swing, they bring their leg over and settle gently into the saddle. Until you can do EXACTLY that, use a mounting block. I bet you'll find that Fly moves around a lot less, too. Right now, she's anticipating the pull to the side and the sudden weight on her back, which is making her fidget.


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## Dehda01

Ease Mounting Pressures on Your Horse | EQUUS Magazine

Thinking About Mounting from the Ground? Think Again


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> The strength is coming from their leg planted on the ground. Basically, they're vaulting into the saddle with one foot already in the stirrup, then once they get to the apex of the swing, they bring their leg over and settle gently into the saddle. Until you can do EXACTLY that, use a mounting block. I bet you'll find that Fly moves around a lot less, too. Right now, she's anticipating the pull to the side and the sudden weight on her back, which is making her fidget.


So theyre pushing off with their leg that is on the ground? I never would have thought that is even possible. So they basically push off with the ground leg, then transfer it over to the one already in the stirrup?

So imm guessing this doesnt put as much pull on the horse because by the time you pur weight on your foot already in the stirrup, your body is already well into the air?

Any excersizes that you know of where I can practice this?


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## greentree

Dancing.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Ease Mounting Pressures on Your Horse | EQUUS Magazine
> 
> Thinking About Mounting from the Ground? Think Again


Thanks. 

Im going to buy a portable mounting block today when I head out for the boots. The one at the barn stays put in that one spot and I would like to have my own so I can bring it with me anywhere to when i want to get on Fly. 

The second link you posted. You dont think that article is being a bit over the top no?


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> So theyre pushing off with their leg that is on the ground? I never would have thought that is even possible. So they basically push off with the ground leg, then transfer it over to the one already in the stirrup?
> 
> So imm guessing this doesnt put as much pull on the horse because by the time you pur weight on your foot already in the stirrup, your body is already well into the air?
> 
> Any excersizes that you know of where I can practice this?


Exactly. That's why you'll see some English riders mounting really tall horses take a few bounces on their planted foot, to gain momentum to hop up.

And I have no idea of exercises because I have always sucked at mounting from the ground, so never do it. I don't have the strength in my knees and it's just MUCH more easy to mount from a block or a step or a log or basically anything else.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Exactly. That's why you'll see some English riders mounting really tall horses take a few bounces on their planted foot, to gain momentum to hop up.
> 
> And I have no idea of exercises because I have always sucked at mounting from the ground, so never do it. I don't have the strength in my knees and it's just MUCH more easy to mount from a block or a step or a log or basically anything else.


Thanks. So let me ask this. Why is mounting on the ground so popular in shows and clinics? Ive never once seen anyone use a block. Do riders feel that mounting from the ground takes skill? Im just curious.

If you mount properly like CA does, does it save the extra strain on a horses back? Or does mounting from the ground put strain on a horses back no matter how well you do it?

If I can find some way to practice this (My only guess right now is to use stairs), I bet I could get pretty good at it.


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## greentree

I always jump 3 times on my ground leg before I mount from the ground. I rarely mount from the ground, though, being old and short. 

You could walk up 2 steps at a time, step up on a sturdy chair, or buy a fitness step and a double set of risers.

May I ask.....have you lived an extremely sheltered life?


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## Dehda01

Just mount from the block. There is a jump from the ground, you want to avoid pulling on the saddle as much as possible. Gosh, as a kid, my 4h leader wanted me to mount without a girth. I could do it as a teenager, but I can't "quite" now. But I always try to keep the idea as my general goal of mounting as light as possible. 

Here is a blog and video that Stacy Westfall did on the general idea. But she really recommends to use a mounting block if you are applying torque to your horses back. 






Video: Mount horse without girth for educational purposes; proper mounting technique. | Westfall Horsemanship


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I always jump 3 times on my ground leg before I mount from the ground. I rarely mount from the ground, though, being old and short.
> 
> You could walk up 2 steps at a time, step up on a sturdy chair, or buy a fitness step and a double set of risers.


I just tried this with the stairs, it worked! I used the strength from my right leg and sprung up to swing the weight over to the left. I even bounced up on my right a few times before doing it. Im almost curious trying this on Fly but also considering just using a block for now on.



> May I ask.....have you lived an extremely sheltered life?


No what makes you think this?


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## Hoofpic

Im a little puzzled now as to why my trainer never brought this to my attention  The mounting that is.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. So let me ask this. Why is mounting on the ground so popular in shows and clinics? Ive never once seen anyone use a block. Do riders feel that mounting from the ground takes skill? Im just curious.



How many mounting blocks have you seen at clinics and shows? They're not exactly super portable. I mean, most of them are at least two steps, some are three. They're big, bulky plastic steps. It's not like it can be folded and put away. 

My barns provides mounting blocks for people who want to use them at the shows they hold. My old barn, the BO was an old cowboy who didn't believe in that "namby-pamby mounting block BS," so we improvised. There was a bench by the hitching rails we used if we were going out on a trail ride, or there was a grand stand next to the arena that we used the steps on. It's great training for your horse to learn to face up to anything like that. Heck, I've mounted my gelding on the trail from a boulder in the middle of a live oak bush. He just stood there like it was no big deal. He was three at the time.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> No what makes you think this?


The ridiculously asinine questions you ask? :shrug:


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## Hoofpic

Now that I double checked on the meaning of that question greentree, my answer is a yes, not no.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> The ridiculously asinine questions you ask? :shrug:


I wont know unless I ask. One who always asks questions is better than one who doesnt ask any at all.


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## greentree

I carry a two step mounting block in my trailer....

I asked that kind of question because of the seemingly limited knowledge set you appear to have . Perhaps it is just the Internet environment, though....


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I carry a two step mounting block in my trailer....
> 
> I asked that kind of question because of the seemingly limited knowledge set you appear to have . Perhaps it is just the Internet environment, though....


Well it depends on what area you are referring to. If you are referring to horses, then yes I have a limited knowledge set because Im still learning. 

I have seen portable mounting blocks. Some even fold up ones. I think you can find a reasonablly portable one to carry around.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> How many mounting blocks have you seen at clinics and shows? They're not exactly super portable. I mean, most of them are at least two steps, some are three. They're big, bulky plastic steps. It's not like it can be folded and put away.
> 
> My barns provides mounting blocks for people who want to use them at the shows they hold. My old barn, the BO was an old cowboy who didn't believe in that "namby-pamby mounting block BS," so we improvised. There was a bench by the hitching rails we used if we were going out on a trail ride, or there was a grand stand next to the arena that we used the steps on. It's great training for your horse to learn to face up to anything like that. Heck, I've mounted my gelding on the trail from a boulder in the middle of a live oak bush. He just stood there like it was no big deal. He was three at the time.


Ive seen some portable ones. Ill be looking for something like this.










I can probably do with a 2 step over a 3.The one we have at the barn right now is a 3 and when Ive stepped on it from just playing around, it seems ill be too high up when I get on Fly.


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## Dehda01

Reading a few beginner BOOKS would take care of many of your basic questions. There are too many questions to answer by simple questions in the Internet. Learning by shutting your mouth and watching and occasionally asking questions once you have read a few books is the best method. IMO.


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## Hoofpic

Does anyone know what the standard height is for official mounting blocks.

I think this will do. Its not labelled as a mounting block but its a step stool. Ill just double check the height on it.


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## Dehda01

I don't recommend open step stools because if the horse shifts you can get your foot or her foot stuck in the stool and then have an incidenct. That is why mounting blocks are solid- so a hoof and foot doesn't get caught. So build one or buy one. 

My babies have trampled and stomped on my block, but it takes a licking and keeps on going.


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## Dehda01

Of course my horses will sidle up to anything for me- be it a log, large rock, picnic table or fence for me. I have a large piece of wood (full cut of a tree)next to my barn.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I don't recommend open step stools because if the horse shifts you can get your foot or her foot stuck in the stool and then have an incidenct. That is why mounting blocks are solid- so a hoof and foot doesn't get caught. So build one or buy one.
> 
> My babies have trampled and stomped on my block, but it takes a licking and keeps on going.


Good point, thanks.

I found this one, only place to sell locally. Its $70CDN though, but i have no choice to pay if i want it.










My only question is, do you think I really need it or am I better off just saving the money and using the ones at the barn. Something tells me that I would look a bit ridiculous carrying my own mounting block with me.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Good point, thanks.
> 
> I found this one, only place to sell locally. Its $70CDN though, but i have no choice to pay if i want it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only question is, do you think I really need it or am I better off just saving the money and using the ones at the barn. Something tells me that I would look a bit ridiculous carrying my own mounting block with me.


Use the barn's mounting block, turn it to the side and just climb up to the second step.


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## Prairie

The cargo pants will be too bulky and just bunch up under your legs, causing many problems and be potentially dangerous. Look at what others are wearing in the pictures on this forum. There is a reason riding jeans and breeches are form fitting, not loose and sloppy. You were told many months ago to get proper riding boots so why didn't you? Your excuses for all your problems are ridiculous because they are a result of not paying attention to what you've been told and thinking you know more than those with experience. Get proper clothing designed for riding----there are many reasons those clothes are designed as they are......


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## tinaev

If your barn has a mounting block I see no reason for you to buy your own. If you're riding out and about and need to mount from the ground you are capable of doing so and Fly will be fine.

Around here mounting from blocks is still pretty frowned upon. If you are a "real" rider you should be able to mount from the ground. Well I can't and I doubt I ever will be able to. So I use a block and screw anybody that looks down on me for it. I've taught my horse to sidle up to anything I need him to for mounting and that training was really good for the both of us and carried over into riding. Some day I do hope to be able to mount from the ground simply because it's a huge fitness goal for me.


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## Hoofpic

Thanks everyone.

I passed on the block. Youre right, no point getting one since my barn has them. I dont wanna have to carry it around all the time.

I got the Ariat terrains.

I also found a pair of nylon pants with some spandex in them. So comfy. Only thing is the price. $75. I know it doesnt make sense to spend that kind of money on riding pants especially when its going to get dirty. But they are so comfy and i feel i have full mobility in them. Theyre actually golf pants lok.


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## Hoofpic

I actually got these pants for general wear but im gonna give them a try riding in them. Theyre not too thin but not thick and not baggy. Super comfy.
I tried on cingo pants and theyre uncomfy. Not much better than jeans. Cargos like Eli said are too thick even if you find slim ones. I dont like slim pants period and why i will never consider breeches.


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## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> If your barn has a mounting block I see no reason for you to buy your own. If you're riding out and about and need to mount from the ground you are capable of doing so and Fly will be fine.
> 
> Around here mounting from blocks is still pretty frowned upon. If you are a "real" rider you should be able to mount from the ground. Well I can't and I doubt I ever will be able to. So I use a block and screw anybody that looks down on me for it. I've taught my horse to sidle up to anything I need him to for mounting and that training was really good for the both of us and carried over into riding. Some day I do hope to be able to mount from the ground simply because it's a huge fitness goal for me.


Thanks.

Im glad I realized that buying my own block would be pointless.


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## tinyliny

Prairie said:


> The cargo pants will be too bulky and just bunch up under your legs, causing many problems and be potentially dangerous. Look at what others are wearing in the pictures on this forum. There is a reason riding jeans and breeches are form fitting, not loose and sloppy. *You were told many months ago to get proper riding boots so why didn't you? Your excuses for all your problems are ridiculous because they are a result of not paying attention to what you've been told and thinking you know more than those with experience. Get* proper clothing designed for riding----there are many reasons those clothes are designed as they are......


And who appointed you drill sergeant ?


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## 6gun Kid

Hey bud, i have been riding for almost half a century. As I have aged, I rely more and more on the mounting block. I am heavier, less flexible and to be honest less patient with foibles that comes with aging. I am the guy who never mounted unless it was a flying mount, or the old Cisco Kid vault from behind, just to show off. Using the block is easier on me, and my horse. Anyone who says otherwise, imho, is wrong...at least in my case.


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## 6gun Kid

EliRose said:


> Use the barn's mounting block, turn it to the side and just climb up to the second step.


I know you arent an fyi guy, but this is super simple. Go to home depot, ace, or Lowes. Do you have those in Canada? If not any lumber yard or hardware store, get a 5 gallon bucket and a snap on lid. Find some scrap 2x6's, turn the lid bottom side up, nail the boards to the lid so they extend 6-8 inches on either side, then snap the lid on the bucket. Place the board side down, and presto 5 dollar mounting block!


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## Hoofpic

Here are my new pants. Will give it a shot. Very confident I will be happy, theyre very comfy to wear.

They sit very snug along my legs, not baggy at all. This angle makes them look baggier than they really are. 

They are 90% nylon and 10% spandex. Are soft enough to give you extra flexibility but also not too thin so that the saddle will scratch my legs.










As for my new boots, Im going to wear them around the house for the next couple days. The guy at the store mentioned that theyre going to scretch. I better make sure theyre completely comfortable for me when scretched because once I wear them outside, I cant return them. Im happy with them so far, you guys are right, very comfy boots and the sole under is nice and flat with very little grip. Definitely a huge difference form my current work boots.


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## 6gun Kid

Also regarding my bucket block, you can store **** in it when you arent using it.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Hey bud, i have been riding for almost half a century. As I have aged, I rely more and more on the mounting block. I am heavier, less flexible and to be honest less patient with foibles that comes with aging. I am the guy who never mounted unless it was a flying mount, or the old Cisco Kid vault from behind, just to show off. Using the block is easier on me, and my horse. Anyone who says otherwise, imho, is wrong...at least in my case.


I have no problem using the block. I just know right now my inner thighs are quite tight and stiff. If I can start scretching from now on before each ride to loosen up my legs, I think it will help. No wonder why I cant lift my right leg all the way up when I get on Fly. My chiro is right, I need to loosen these muscles up, its not helping me in the saddle. If I can do scretches at home, then hopefully I can gain some flexibility.


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## 6gun Kid

Stretching is a god plan. Do it several times a day for just a couple of minutes. Instead of 1 long session a day!


----------



## greentree

Stretch AFTER you ride or exercise. The warm muscles are more flexible, and it will be more effective. 
Do wide squats, too, to both strengthen your quads and glutes, AND stretch out your hips. 
If the little bit of riding you do makes you sore, you probably need to supplement your magnesium and iodine. Vitamin d probably wouldn't Hirt, either, since you live so far north.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> I know you arent an fyi guy, but this is super simple. Go to home depot, ace, or Lowes. Do you have those in Canada? If not any lumber yard or hardware store, get a 5 gallon bucket and a snap on lid. Find some scrap 2x6's, turn the lid bottom side up, nail the boards to the lid so they extend 6-8 inches on either side, then snap the lid on the bucket. Place the board side down, and presto 5 dollar mounting block!


We have a Lowes and Home Depot in Canada. Thanks, I never would have of thought a bucket with a 2x6 nailed to the end would work.

I know what these 5 gallon buckets look like. No need to pay $70 for a block thats forsure.


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## greentree

Here is how we used to mount bareback.... I quit doing this when I was about your age...

Put horse where you want him. Walk away about 10 feet. Run as fast as you can up to the horse, and just before, JUMP towards the horse's back, catching his other side with your elbows, and swinging your right leg over at same time. Grab the reins and mane, and pull up to riding position! 

The taller, more athletic people could stand facing the horses rear, with the left hand holding reins and mane, kick the right leg back, then swing it up in a launch, landing on the horses back.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Stretch AFTER you ride or exercise. The warm muscles are more flexible, and it will be more effective.
> Do wide squats, too, to both strengthen your quads and glutes, AND stretch out your hips.
> If the little bit of riding you do makes you sore, you probably need to supplement your magnesium and iodine. Vitamin d probably wouldn't Hirt, either, since you live so far north.


Ok I will scretch after. I always thought you do both. I know when I took martial arts as a kid we scretched before and after. I definitely get my share of iodine and I am currently taking Vit D as well.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic, how do you post on here, I mean what sort of device? Does it have a spell checker, or I believe that the board has it's own one..I may be wrong, but it seems there are spell checkers on everything these days.

I have trouble with words, I'm sure I drive a lot of people crazy by using the wrong word at times, but I ALWAYS use a spell checker, and when I get that red squiggly line I go back and fix it.

So I have sympathy with people who struggle, although we get frustrated when you use reigns, (which is what a king does) rather than reins, which is what you have in your hands when riding, I can understand how it happens.

You keep using scretch in place of stretch though, and other simple issues, really using the spell checker is your friend and ally (now i'm stuck you see ally, alli, ali, aly, the only one with no red mark is ally, but it looks totally wrong to me)


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic, how do you post on here, I mean what sort of device? Does it have a spell checker, or I believe that the board has it's own one..I may be wrong, but it seems there are spell checkers on everything these days.
> 
> I have trouble with words, I'm sure I drive a lot of people crazy by using the wrong word at times, but I ALWAYS use a spell checker, and when I get that red squiggly line I go back and fix it.
> 
> So I have sympathy with people who struggle, although we get frustrated when you use reigns, (which is what a king does) rather than reins, which is what you have in your hands when riding, I can understand how it happens.
> 
> You keep using scretch in place of stretch though, and other simple issues, really using the spell checker is your friend and ally (now i'm stuck you see ally, alli, ali, aly, the only one with no red mark is ally, but it looks totally wrong to me)


Most of the time, I am typing from my phone. I just want to get what I need to say at times and dont worry about spelling. Im actually a very good speller, its just if you see me mispell words, its just from me being too lazy to go back and correct it. 

I only do this for online forums. Anything work related and its different. Same thing goes for when I dont use ' in words on here, Im just too lazy.


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## Hoofpic

Just saw these. Am I better off with these Ariats? They are the Heritage III Paddock boots but the lady said that they very much riding shoes. The soles on them have even less tread than the terrains.

Only $40 more.










Also I forgot to get riding gloves! My trainer always rides in gloves and said it wouldnt be a bad idea if I got a pair. Do they have to be riding gloves or can I use any kind? Cause I have a ton of gloves.

Also are chaps worth it? I know theyre english but Im considering half chaps simply cause it protects my leg from rubbing against the saddle. Cause it does get annoying at times when you have rougher patches on your saddles stabbing into your legs.


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## carshon

These look more like English paddock boots. Do you ride Western? Why not a nice pair of Ariat's? or Rocky's? or other western boots? We ride in flat soled boots so our feet will slip out of the stirrup in an accident. We also ride in jeans and nothing with Lycra or Nylon as both are slippery material and will make you slide in the saddle. As for gloves - I see no need unless you are having issues with the reins sliding out of your hands. 

Ultimately you need to wear and ride in what feels best for you and do not need to get opinions from every Tom **** and Harry on a horse forum. We all ride in what works best for how we ride.


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> These look more like English paddock boots. Do you ride Western? Why not a nice pair of Ariat's? or Rocky's? or other western boots? We ride in flat soled boots so our feet will slip out of the stirrup in an accident. We also ride in jeans and nothing with Lycra or Nylon as both are slippery material and will make you slide in the saddle. As for gloves - I see no need unless you are having issues with the reins sliding out of your hands.
> 
> Ultimately you need to wear and ride in what feels best for you and do not need to get opinions from every Tom **** and Harry on a horse forum. We all ride in what works best for how we ride.


I picked up the Ariat Terrains yesterday. Look just like these, I think mine might be lighter in colour. 










I like the sole on them, nice and flat with very little tread. I was going to get the water proof H20 version but im keeping these at the barn and will only be worn when i ride. I will slip back into my work boots when im done riding (which are water proof and have more grip and composite toe plates).

Yes those boots I posted (the black ones) are english. I ride western lol.

I decided im just going to keep the Ariats i got now. No point wasting my time and gas driving back and fourth to stores.

Im loving these pants, I cant wait to try them during my ride.


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## DraftyAiresMum

You can use half chaps with the Terrains. I did for years. I don't know why you would need half chaps in a western saddle, though. The fender shouldn't be rubbing your leg and if it is, you're doing it wrong. I think you'll see a huge difference once you get those fenders turned. Like I said, that's why I only buy used saddles: the work of breaking it in and twisting the stirrups is already done for me...and they cost a far cry less. 

Why switch back to your other boots after you're done riding? My Terrains weren't waterproof and I used them for everything: mucking, hiking, regular wear. Literally everything. I even got them wet and it didn't hurt them. :shrug: You seem to be determined to make things more difficult than they need to be and more work for yourself at every turn.

As for the pants...I think you'll soon find that comfortable to wear and comfortable to ride in aren't always the same thing. I hope for your sake that your saddle has a rough-out/suede seat.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Most of the time, I am typing from my phone. I just want to get what I need to say at times and dont worry about spelling. Im actually a very good speller, its just if you see me mispell words, its just from me being too lazy to go back and correct it.
> 
> I only do this for online forums. Anything work related and its different. Same thing goes for when I dont use ' in words on here, Im just too lazy.


OK, but just remember that people judge you by your words on a forum, because that is all they know of you, type a little less and a little less often and take the time to check out the mistakes, it will make a difference, if you also get that basic book on horses that people have been encouraging you to get you will also learn the proper terms you need to know.

About the boots, like the Ariats, why would you even consider changing them, now how much did they cost and where did you get them? The Canadian price looks a bit scary, not sure when I will be able to replace mine.
@DraftyAiresMum I like wearing my half chaps with my ariats sometimes, but I already owned them from my English days, certainly don't NEED them for Western, in fact I guess I wear them more to keep the legs of my jeans clean when catching her, rather than when I am riding.


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## greentree

You will be way more satisfied with those terrains than with the paddock boots. The leather on the paddock boots does not last near as long! 

When do you want to start the quizzes???


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You can use half chaps with the Terrains. I did for years. I don't know why you would need half chaps in a western saddle, though. The fender shouldn't be rubbing your leg and if it is, you're doing it wrong. I think you'll see a huge difference once you get those fenders turned. Like I said, that's why I only buy used saddles: the work of breaking it in and twisting the stirrups is already done for me...and they cost a far cry less.
> 
> Why switch back to your other boots after you're done riding? My Terrains weren't waterproof and I used them for everything: mucking, hiking, regular wear. Literally everything. I even got them wet and it didn't hurt them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to be determined to make things more difficult than they need to be and more work for yourself at every turn.
> 
> As for the pants...I think you'll soon find that comfortable to wear and comfortable to ride in aren't always the same thing. I hope for your sake that your saddle has a rough-out/suede seat.


I decided to keep the Ariats that I bought yesterday. Theyre good enough for me .

Well sometimes before I would have parts of the saddle jab into my leg as I was riding. Not fun. Hasnt happened recently though.

I think turning the stirrups will make a BIG difference. Im anxious to get my saddle back tomorrow. 

I could just use the Ariats for everything, but I feel the work boots are nice to have in case it rains or snows and for the extra protection for my toes not getting crunched. I will wear the Ariats for the next while and see how I like them in comparison to the work boots for just around the barn and stuff.

As for the pants, I think you are right. im not 100% sure if im going to wear them when riding. My worry is that the pant material wont be durable and will rip easy. That would suck for a $75 pair of pants. I need to think about it. If I dont use it to ride, I will just return them. I generally dont like slim pants and these are noticably more slim than my jeans (just more flexy).

I think the new boots and the new stirrups could be enough for me. Run it those two changes for now and see how I like it. Then go from there. Sometimes you just dont want to change too much at once.

Its massage day for Fly. Just got to the barn and very much looking forward to it. I will put on my new Ariats to help break them in.


----------



## karliejaye

I think you'll like the terrains. I got some as a gift about 5 years ago and wasn't too keen on the look of them, so they sat for a few years. Then I wore through my mountain horse paddock boots and went to the Ariats. I LOVE them. I ride in them about 90% of the time. I do some hiking and field inventory work in them. I built fence in them all day for 4 days straight this weekend. They are really great boots.


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## Hoofpic




----------



## tinyliny

I love my terrains, though they are not water proof. next boots I buy will be the H2O version of the Terrains, for my climate, which is wet much of the year.


----------



## Golden Horse

6gun Kid said:


> I know you arent an fyi guy, but this is super simple. Go to home depot, ace, or Lowes. Do you have those in Canada? If not any lumber yard or hardware store, get a 5 gallon bucket and a snap on lid. Find some scrap 2x6's, turn the lid bottom side up, nail the boards to the lid so they extend 6-8 inches on either side, then snap the lid on the bucket. Place the board side down, and presto 5 dollar mounting block!


I wouldn't do it....the plastic becomes brittle in the winters here and the thing can shatter after a while. Cheapest solution of all, use the block that the barn provides, no need to go shopping at all.


----------



## tinyliny

I wouldn't trust the bucket. one crack and it could cave in under me. but, I weight half again as much as Hoofpic.


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## 6gun Kid

I weigh 240 lbs, i have used this method for a while, but i dont live in the frozen tundra of Canada, so I didn't take the cold into account. In Texas, for this lard-a$$, it works just fine.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the time, I am typing from my phone. I just want to get what I need to say at times and dont worry about spelling. Im actually a very good speller, its just if you see me mispell words, its just from me being too lazy to go back and correct it.
> 
> I only do this for online forums. Anything work related and its different. Same thing goes for when I dont use ' in words on here, Im just too lazy.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, but just remember that people judge you by your words on a forum, because that is all they know of you, type a little less and a little less often and take the time to check out the mistakes, it will make a difference, if you also get that basic book on horses that people have been encouraging you to get you will also learn the proper terms you need to know.
> 
> About the boots, like the Ariats, why would you even consider changing them, now how much did they cost and where did you get them? The Canadian price looks a bit scary, not sure when I will be able to replace mine.
> @DraftyAiresMum I like wearing my half chaps with my ariats sometimes, but I already owned them from my English days, certainly don't NEED them for Western, in fact I guess I wear them more to keep the legs of my jeans clean when catching her, rather than when I am riding.
Click to expand...

Im keeping the Ariat Terrains. I paid $150cdn for them. I wore them today at the barn and theyreally comfy. I have no doubt they will feel much different in my stirrups than the work boots.

Thanks again for being the first person on here to suggest twisting my stirrups. Im going to run with this for now and keep wearing jeans for the next ride and see if i can live with riding in jeans. Im sure I can.


----------



## Prairie

With all the different brands and styles available in jeans, you just need to try on different ones to find the pair that is comfortable for you. Look for some that have some stretch which you may find less binding since the fabric has some give.


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## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> I think you'll like the terrains. I got some as a gift about 5 years ago and wasn't too keen on the look of them, so they sat for a few years. Then I wore through my mountain horse paddock boots and went to the Ariats. I LOVE them. I ride in them about 90% of the time. I do some hiking and field inventory work in them. I built fence in them all day for 4 days straight this weekend. They are really great boots.


Im loving them so far. Its quite the change from my work boots. My feet right away felt so small (not sure if thats a good thing when around horses). I felt super safe in my work boots simply because my toes were well protected. But now that I have been keeping my feet active like hot potatoes, then perhaps my bad string of getting my baby toes crunched on is finally over and for good.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> I weigh 240 lbs, i have used this method for a while, but i dont live in the frozen tundra of Canada, so I didn't take the cold into account. In Texas, for this lard-a$$, it works just fine.


If a 5 gallon is one of those buckets that restaurants uses then I think that is strong enough because those buckets are incredibly tough for plastic. 

But yes Golden, Ive decided to save my money. Its just not worth $70 to buy a block when my barn has two (in the indoor arena and in the outdoor arena).


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> With all the different brands and styles available in jeans, you just need to try on different ones to find the pair that is comfortable for you. Look for some that have some stretch which you may find less binding since the fabric has some give.


My jeans now arent bad, theyre relaxed fit. I dont like snug pants rubbing against my legs, unless theyre really soft and light. I mean I can keep looking for more flexible jeans, but I might be best off just buying a more lighter and athletic pant. 

I think that jeans is probably the least of my concern (though I still strongly believe that I can find much more comfy pants). The newly twisted stirrups and the new boots will probably make 100 times more of a difference than my pants would.

The thing with jeans is that, they just feel so heavy and thick once you sit in the saddle. Maybe on an english saddle, it might feel different but on a western one, it feels so busy around the saddle seat. Lighter pants IMO should help. Jeans just feel clunky, it feels like Im wearing overalls around my waist.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> If a 5 gallon is one of those buckets that restaurants uses then I think that is strong enough because those buckets are incredibly tough for plastic.
> 
> But yes Golden, Ive decided to save my money. Its just not worth $70 to buy a block when my barn has two (in the indoor arena and in the outdoor arena).


Believe me, those pails BREAK in Canadian winters, I have seen enough of them used as step stools around farm machinery not to trust them. 

LOL if there are two at the barn then you definitely don't need one, get on your mare and ride her to where you want to be


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, the reason that the jeans feel clunky is because they are the relaxed fit. There's a reason cowboys wear "cowboy" cut jeans which are designed for riding. Most of the athletic clothing is made from slick fabric that won't work for riding unless you want to do a ground check. 


However, you can suit yourself.......


Many studies today have lead to the conclusion that mounting a horse from the ground is hard on their backs and that a mounting block should be used whenever available. Some things that also work are putting the horse in a low sport, climbing up on a downed log, or having someone give you a leg up if you are trail riding.


----------



## Hoofpic

Fly did really good during her massage. It was quite long (just over 2 hours), since it was the first session by this therapist and she had to do an evaluation for herself. Fly was getting a bit antzy near the end.

Theres no concerns with Fly in terms of sore spots. Yes she has some light or very mild tightness in some spots but nothing uncommon for a horse that is being ridden. Because her front right is her strongest in terms of muscle and then its symmetrical with her, so her 2nd strongest limb is her back left, then front left. And because Im left handed and I have a bit more weight on my left part of my body than my right. So when I ride her, Im putting more pressure and weight on her left side. And because that is her weak side, its only expected for her to get a bit tight on her left side.

Fly didnt like it being worked on her front left and front left neck (C7 she was slightly out but now shes back in), and she showed it that she didnt like it and it was unpleasant for her, but she had really good releases during the session. It was the same for her in her previous massages by the previous therapist. 

And thats the most important thing is that she is getting the releases. Plus of course with Fly being so expressive as she is, she doesnt hide anything back. She will tell you what she is feeling or thinking in that moment. I think thats a very good thing.

Therapist wants me to do some belly lifts on her and showed me a way to kinda ease into it (cause Fly hates doing them), so im very curious to see if it will be easier for me now doing belly lifts on Fly. She said that by doing these, it will be the single and most beneficial excersize I can do on Fly. So if I can do these a couple times a week, that would be great. Even two solid lifts each time would be an achievement for me.

I think Fly is good for at least a couple months. Maybe have another massage in 2-3 months time.

I know some of you still believe that Fly doesnt need massage. But I think because her left side isnt as strong as her right and she over relies on her right to compensate for her left, it will unavoidably create tightness on her left side. So she does need massage. She was tight in some places today (nothing serious, totally common tightness), but Id hate to ride her for another 2 or 3 months and that tightness will get worse (if I didnt have her massaged today). So by addressing it now and loosening them now and giving her really good releases, it will make her feel better so that over the next couple or few months, as those muscles continue to build and get stronger, she wont get nearly as tight.

Dont get me wrong, I know her left side (all those muscles and spots that were worked on today) are all going to get tight all over again over the next 2-3 months of me riding her. But as her muscles on her left grow and get stronger, and she starts to bend better towards her left, it wont get near as tight over time. Because right now, her front right is her strongest, so thats the one she relies on the most and to compensate for her left side. But as her left gets stronger, then Im hoping she doesnt have to rely on her right side near as much and can lead off on both sides as evenly as possible.

She does bend to her left better today than she did 2 months ago, thats what my trainer said. But there's still work to be done. And that would explain why my trainer has me doing so many circles and serpentines on her.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Believe me, those pails BREAK in Canadian winters, I have seen enough of them used as step stools around farm machinery not to trust them.
> 
> LOL if there are two at the barn then you definitely don't need one, get on your mare and ride her to where you want to be


Ok thanks, I wont do the buckets. 

Isnt it harder to teach a horse to stand at a block when mounting than for them to stand when mounting on the ground? I don't think Fly has ever been trained to stand at a mounting block before. But it should be the same principle right? Except this time, if she moves her as I get up on the steps and tell her to stand. Then I will need to hop down before moving her feet in a circle will I not?

Maybe its just me, but I see mounting from a block more difficult in getting your horse to stand. Why? Because there is much more build up of you visibly stepping up on the blocks before getting on. Whereas from the ground, there is really no build up, leading up to you hoping on.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Ok thanks, I wont do the buckets.
> 
> Isnt it harder to teach a horse to stand at a block when mounting than for them to stand when mounting on the ground? I don't think Fly has ever been trained to stand at a mounting block before. But it should be the same principle right? Except this time, if she moves her as I get up on the steps and tell her to stand. Then I will need to hop down before moving her feet in a circle will I not?
> 
> Maybe its just me, but I see mounting from a block more difficult in getting your horse to stand. Why? Because there is much more build up of you visibly stepping up on the blocks before getting on. Whereas from the ground, there is really no build up, leading up to you hoping on.


No it is not more difficult, just different, it concentrates the mind of both of you...THIS is where I want you to stand, not 6" away but HERE. It is so easy to allow 'creep' when you are mounting from the ground.

Just walk her up to it tell her to stand, give her a rub, walk up onto the block, and get on, just the same as you do from the ground. If she goes to walk forward back her up quickly, then walk her up, tell her to stand again. Never allow her to walk forward, or circle her, I used to think that was a good idea, not any more, horse has to learn that the block means STAND and backing up reinforces that point.

Strongly suggest that you have your trainer there the first time, so your worry and inexperience does not turn a nothing sort of exercise into a something...


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Isnt it harder to teach a horse to stand at a block when mounting than for them to stand when mounting on the ground?


Nope. It means put your feet here, and stay here regardless of what I do.

Ground tying is ground tying. Should be the same even if mounting.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, the reason that the jeans feel clunky is because they are the relaxed fit. There's a reason cowboys wear "cowboy" cut jeans which are designed for riding. Most of the athletic clothing is made from slick fabric that won't work for riding unless you want to do a ground check.
> 
> 
> However, you can suit yourself.......
> 
> 
> Many studies today have lead to the conclusion that mounting a horse from the ground is hard on their backs and that a mounting block should be used whenever available. Some things that also work are putting the horse in a low sport, climbing up on a downed log, or having someone give you a leg up if you are trail riding.


Im not familiar with cowboy cut jeans but from looking up pics of them, they are pretty much slim fit straight jeans if im not mistaken?

I will head out to Old Navy tonight and try on a pair. For me, jeans are jeans, I dont buy brand names. 

Right now, I am 100% dedicated to using a mounting block when getting on Fly. But I should be able to just hop off Fly without the block right? Does getting off without using the block, put the same amount of pressure on their left side and the saddle as getting on?

I will tell my trainer tomorow. I couldnt today because we were both busy. She will ask why I want to use a block and I will just tell her the truth. She may disagree with me, but I hope she will understand where Im coming from on this. I know herself, she ALWAYS mounts her own horses from the ground, so chances are shes not all that much of a believer in "mounting from the ground is hard on a horses back". Which is fine, everyone is different.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Right now, I am 100% dedicated to using a mounting block when getting on Fly. But I should be able to just hop off Fly without the block right? Does getting off without using the block, put the same amount of pressure on their left side and the saddle as getting on?
> .


NEVER get off onto a block, always dismount onto level ground, I have seen a nasty accident, and nearly had one myself by landing wrongly on a block.......The only change to this rile was working with disabled riders, when we had a bunch of helpers ensuring the safety of the rider.

As to using the block, it is a good thing for Fly to learn, so no need to get into any arguments if a block is beneficial, it is just another skill that a horse and rider should have. At our barn, mix of Western and English 99% of riders use a block


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> No it is not more difficult, just different, it concentrates the mind of both of you...THIS is where I want you to stand, not 6" away but HERE. It is so easy to allow 'creep' when you are mounting from the ground.
> 
> Just walk her up to it tell her to stand, give her a rub, walk up onto the block, and get on, just the same as you do from the ground. If she goes to walk forward back her up quickly, then walk her up, tell her to stand again. Never allow her to walk forward, or circle her, I used to think that was a good idea, not any more, horse has to learn that the block means STAND and backing up reinforces that point.
> 
> Strongly suggest that you have your trainer there the first time, so your worry and inexperience does not turn a nothing sort of exercise into a something...


Because I havent done this with Fly before and she hasnt been taught to stand at a block before, I will get my trainer to work with me on it the first time, maybe first few times. 

The first thing that came to my mind was, ground tying. Because I have worked with Fly in ground tying (her ground tying is not perfect but its a lot better than before, I can have her ground tied over grass in the outdoor arena without her diving for grass or moving anywhere), do you think the logic behind ground tying very much applies to standing at a mounting block?

Cause with ground tying, you put the lead on the ground.

Getting them to stand at the block, you put the reins over their head and on their neck (I do saddle tree cause my reins are so long).

So I should be able to just walk her up to the block, have her stand parellel to the block. Put her reins around her neck and over the tree. Tell her stand, leaving her free. Then walk around and up onto the block and get on her without her even taking a step.

I know this isnt rocket science to teach or ask from, from a horse.

But there are a lot of boarders at the barn who have trouble getting their horses to stand at a block while they get on. There is one who has never been able to get her mare to stand at the block for her. She either swings her butt away from her as she is about to get on or she moves forward. So she gets me to hold her mare for her while she gets on. She says its impossible.

Cause I do know how common of a problem this is among many horse owners out there. So it does worry me a little bit but Im confident I can teach Fly to stand at a block for me. Like you said, I just need to be shown the right way to do it.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> So I should be able to just walk her up to the block, have her stand parellel to the block. Put her reins around her neck and over the tree. Tell her stand, leaving her free. Then walk around and up onto the block and get on her without her even taking a step.


Do you leave her free when you get on from the ground? No you don't, keep hold of your reins, watch other people using the bloc, or watch this






Obviously this is English, but the theory is just the same, check your girth, but don't need to worry about stirrups, see how she hold onto a rein a



Hoofpic said:


> There are a lot of boarders at the barn who have trouble getting their horses to stand at a block while they get on. There is one who has never been able to get her mare to stand at the block for her. So she gets me to hold her mare for her while she gets on. She says its impossible.
> 
> Cause I do know how common of a problem this is among many horse owners out there. So it does worry me a little bit and Im hoping I can teach Fly to stand at a block for me. Like you said, I just need to be shown the right way to do it.


There are ZERO horses that have an issue with the block at our barn, because they all get taught to stand at it, no ifs, buts or maybes, you STAND at the block.....Remember yet again, Fly has not got an issue with a mounting block, and there is ZERO reason why she should have one, again this is why you have a trainer help you the first time, to make sure it is a non event for her.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Mounting from a block and mounting from the ground is the same thing.. Only difference is you have a mounting block..


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## greentree

Stand MEANS stand, in the barn aisle, next to the mounting block, if I decide I need to climb a freakin fence to mount....geez, sorry Hoofpic, but this stuff should NOT be over your head......


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## Hoofpic

Got it! 
Riding gloves and cowboy cut jeans with 2% spandex in them. So much more comfy than my jeans now.

$27 for the gloves and $45 for the jeans.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Stand MEANS stand, in the barn aisle, next to the mounting block, if I decide I need to climb a freakin fence to mount....geez, sorry Hoofpic, but this stuff should NOT be over your head......


Its not over my head, Im just double checking


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## tinyliny

Getting a horse to stand reliably at the mounting block is sometimes harder to do than one would think. However, it's an important skill and ahs as much to do wi th ground tying as it does with gettinyiurnhirse to be ok with things that are high over its head , and move from one eye into the other. 

When you mount from a block, or a log, or a corral fence it can feel very different to the horse. That feeling of having another being hovering above them, waiting to go up and over their back can feel very disconcerting to a horse. Cowboys always spend some good training time making sur their horses can tolerate them mounting from the corral fence, and can to,erase them waving things like coats or ropes well up above their heads, and passing from the near to the far eye, over the back. 

This part of training the horse to stand comfortably to be mounted from any elevated surface. 
Fly is pretty steady, so should adapt well to this. Being able to do both ground and block mounting would be optimal. We do what we can.


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## Prairie

I'm glad you finally took our advice and are getting proper riding clothing. Remember the clothing has been developed over many decades to be functional for riding and what disciplines you are interested in. 


Our flighty, "this is scary" abused TWH mare never batted an eye when I introduced the mounting block to her-----I'd prepared her for this lesson in the previous ones by climbing the fence, flapping coats above her, opening and closing an umbrella, etc. so she learned that all the crazy things I do will not hurt her. Fly is much more laid back than our mare and has not seen the wrong side of mankind---she'll be fine and may have already been taught to stand at a mounting block by her prior trainer.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Do you leave her free when you get on from the ground? No you don't, keep hold of your reins, watch other people using the bloc, or watch this
> 
> How To Mount A Horse Using A Mounting Block - YouTube
> 
> Obviously this is English, but the theory is just the same, check your girth, but don't need to worry about stirrups, see how she hold onto a rein a
> 
> 
> 
> There are ZERO horses that have an issue with the block at our barn, because they all get taught to stand at it, no ifs, buts or maybes, you STAND at the block.....Remember yet again, Fly has not got an issue with a mounting block, and there is ZERO reason why she should have one, again this is why you have a trainer help you the first time, to make sure it is a non event for her.


Thanks. Cant wait to try this out. I am confident to say that I feel confident enough to try this on my own but I probably shouldnt just in case, like you said.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> Isnt it harder to teach a horse to stand at a block when mounting than for them to stand when mounting on the ground? I don't think Fly has ever been trained to stand at a mounting block before. But it should be the same principle right? Except this time, if she moves her as I get up on the steps and tell her to stand. Then I will need to hop down before moving her feet in a circle will I not?


I get on the mounting block (or log or guardrail or truck tailgate) and then ask the horse to move into the position I want for mounting. You know how you have been practicing your groundwork, so you can get Fly to move one leg at a time? HERE is where that work gets applied. If the horse steps out of position, circle them around the block and get them lined up again.

I took Sultan out this morning alone, so didn't have anybody to video how I mount, so I did my best to hold the phone myself to show you (so forgive the less than ideal outcome). Just for some background, Sultan is a 100-mile-fit Arabian who hasn't been ridden in 2 weeks. So (in theory), as crazy as horse as they come. :wink:






I already have the reins over his head as I come out of the barn, (though he would stand beside the block if I chose to lead him to it normally and then put them over his head). I step onto the block myself and then ask him to move each foot into position (the clucking) until he is standing exactly how I want him.

This behavior came from lots of repetition and rewards (one of the few times I will give treats is when teaching a horse to stand quietly at the block). Sultan - who is my DHs horse - did NOT stand still when I first got together with my now DH. I personally hate a horse who walks away before being asked, so I fixed it.

If I can get a crazy fit ayrab to stand beside a block, I have no doubt you can get Fly to do the same!


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## Hoofpic

Ah I have a question. When you apply the french twist into your stirrups, wont it essentially make your fenders shorter? Resulting in less stirrup length?

Im about to call the tack store in half hour from now to see if my saddle is ready for pick up. Im freaking out.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Ah I have a question. When you apply the french twist into your stirrups, wont it essentially make your fenders shorter? Resulting in less stirrup length?
> 
> Im about to call the tack store in half hour from now to see if my saddle is ready for pick up. Im freaking out.


No...and if it did you would just drop them a hole! I don't remember changing mine.

If you ordered a French twist not sure what you are going to end up with though!


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Ah I have a question. When you apply the french twist into your stirrups, wont it essentially make your fenders shorter? Resulting in less stirrup length?
> 
> Im about to call the tack store in half hour from now to see if my saddle is ready for pick up. Im freaking out.


The fenders don't change.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> The fenders don't change.


Phew, thank god. I was panicking all worried that my stirrups would be too short.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> Getting a horse to stand reliably at the mounting block is sometimes harder to do than one would think. However, it's an important skill and ahs as much to do wi th ground tying as it does with gettinyiurnhirse to be ok with things that are high over its head , and move from one eye into the other.
> 
> When you mount from a block, or a log, or a corral fence it can feel very different to the horse. That feeling of having another being hovering above them, waiting to go up and over their back can feel very disconcerting to a horse. Cowboys always spend some good training time making sur their horses can tolerate them mounting from the corral fence, and can to,erase them waving things like coats or ropes well up above their heads, and passing from the near to the far eye, over the back.
> 
> This part of training the horse to stand comfortably to be mounted from any elevated surface.
> Fly is pretty steady, so should adapt well to this. Being able to do both ground and block mounting would be optimal. We do what we can.


You bring up some very good points, thanks Liny. Im confident Fly will be fine.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> No...and if it did you would just drop them a hole! I don't remember changing mine.
> 
> If you ordered a French twist not sure what you are going to end up with though!


Im a little bit anxious to see what I end up with, crossing my fingers and hoping for the best.


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## Hoofpic

These wranglers are totally not my style but time to wear them to the barn to get them dirty and softened up.

I just wish they could make cowboy cut jeans not so westerny. 

Jeans are so much more comfy to wear when not washed. I never wash my jeans.


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## greentree

Do you send them to the cleaners?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Do you send them to the cleaners?


No I dont wash them at all, if I do then maybe once every 4 or 5 months. Remember I never wear jeans other than at the barn. Unfortunately, because im always at the barn and aside from running errands I never go anywhere else, that means Im always in jeans lol.

It will take some time to get used to these jeans. One, theyre cowboy cut (which is totally not my style) but theyre a lot slimmer in the leg than my bootcuts that Ive worn all my life.

I will admit, I debadged the jeans and took the Wrangler tag off the back pocket. I know many will give me heck, but Im just not one to have flashy labels on my clothes.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> No I dont wash them at all, if I do then maybe once every 4 or 5 months. Remember I never wear jeans other than at the barn. Unfortunately, because im always at the barn and aside from running errands I never go anywhere else, that means Im always in jeans lol.


Then you are not working hard enough!!! How the heck does someone hang around a barn and ride, in hot weather, and not need to wash jeans ......


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## sarahfromsc

Hells bells, even cold weather! Then you have the muck and mud.

And shedding in the spring.

I am a filthy mess when I leave the barn. After a four or five hour ride sweating, I could not imagine putting those jeans on the next day.

They could probably stand in the corner themselves!

Personally, I have found washing jeans, wearing them, washing them, wearing them, makes them softer.


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## Prairie

Sarah is right.....wearing and washing jeans is what gives them the comfy softness. Personally, I can't imagine not washing hubby's and my jeans after every ride or even after just working around the barn. At least ours would be stiff enough from sweat, dirt, mud, manure, and dust to stand up by themselves. Yuck! I also always wash new jeans before wearing them just to get the sizing and excess dye out.


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## greentree

I turn completely blue if I don't wash them before I wear them the first time. Nope, can't imagine not washing them


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## Prairie

I've had the same problem with the blue dye too......and so has hubby. He wasn't too happy with his light blue "whities"! Bleach to the rescue to fix that.....


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## Hoofpic

Well I guess Im a bit lucky cause my jeans dont get dirty really fast. My camo pants I washed them once in the past year. my shirts and hoodies I wash them like once every few months. I actually like the horse hair smell on them. I go out in public and run my errands, eat lunch all the time wearing my barn clothes.


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## Dehda01

I actually work. By the end of the day, I am pretty sure my jeans can stand and walk by themselves. I can empty a hay bale out of my pockets and wring far too much sweat of various types out of them but the creatures are fed and worked and bills are paid.

I am just going to say... If you are around the farm that much, you probably need to wash your clothes MUCH MORE. You might like the smell fine, but the people around you probably don't. I don't mind the smell of manure. But, some of my regular small animal coworkers would find me smelling ripe if I walked into a veterinary clinic in my barn clothes. Hygiene!


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## Golden Horse

Ewwww reading that @Hoofpic I may take a wild guess why you may not have many friends......shirts, polo shirts, tees get washed daily, and I may change twice in a day if I am working hard. May get a couple of rides out of a heavier shirt in winter, but usually I'm covered in hair and or slobber, pooh or something....Jeans I'll wear for a couple of lessons, but I can't imagine not washing......no one stays that clean around horses


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Well I guess Im a bit lucky cause my jeans dont get dirty really fast. My camo pants I washed them once in the past year. my shirts and hoodies I wash them like once every few months. I actually like the horse hair smell on them. I go out in public and run my errands, eat lunch all the time wearing my barn clothes.


We all do things at times wearing our barn clothes but they started the day clean.


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## natisha

I wonder, does a skunk think it stinks?


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## greentree

Makes me itchy just thinking about it.....


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## Golden Horse

greentree said:


> Makes me itchy just thinking about it.....


Me as well


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## Prairie

Cleanliness is next to godliness is a saying that seems to apply here. Even though I love horses and enjoy the smell of horses, hay, and sweat in the barn and while riding, I sure don't appreciate those odors when I'm eating or enjoying an evening with friends playing cards and catching up with each other. Some odors should not permeate the house, a restaurant, or a gathering!


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## Hoofpic

Well I never go out to gatherings but if I do on the odd occasion, I dont wear my barn clothes. But if Im stopping to get lunch (always the case because Im always on the go), then I dont bother. Not going to dress up nice just to pick up something as Walmart.

And this is a big change for me, because when I was really young, I was big a major prep but as you get older, you realize that there is more to life than clothes and overdressing. Back then, I never even had a hoodie or pair of jeans in my closet. It was all dressy stuff.

But over the years my tastes and wardrobe completely changed. I still have some nice clothes, but I find nothing more uncomfortable than office attire. Gross. Give me runners and track pants and a hoodie any day of the week. Unless the time calls for it, I have no interest in dressing up anymore.


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## Golden Horse

Not many people care what you wear, BUT it should be clean and fresh......I am simply dumbfounded at this point


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Not many people care what you wear, BUT it should be clean and fresh......I am simply dumbfounded at this point


Everyones different. For me, I see no point in washing everytime.


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## Prairie

There's a huge difference between being neat and clean in work clothes and being too uncaring to even wash your dirty clothes before wearing them again. After over 55 years of being around horses, years of working with cowboys and mechanics, and living and working on our farm/ranch, I've never seen a person who could truly work around horses and ride who didn't need a shower, to change into clean clothes, and wash the clothes they were wearing. It's not like we live when running water was a luxury and every drop had to be hauled into the house, heated, and then hauled back outside just to bathe and washing clothes was an all day chore of hauling and heating several buckets of water, scrubbing them on a wash board which often meant cut and sore fingers (washerwomen's hands), then rinsing several times before hanging them outside to dry. Rinse and repeat weekly including making the soap so you could wash the clothes and yourself. 


If you want to be considered a real horseman, wash your clothes......and if you are truly a serious rider, you'll notice that many even starch their jeans so that crease is perfect and they look neat and clean. Turnout counts no matter what you are doing!


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## Dehda01

Listen, I get it. I am significantly introverted and pretty antisocial. But you still need to start the day in clean/fresh clothes. No guarantees to my friends and family after that except for special occasions. I am the queen of the work and barn clothes. I will happily go shopping in my breeches and tall boots. Or barn jeans. If I am really filthy Though, I will change for everyone's sake. If I can smell myself, I won't go into Walmart that way or the grocery unless it is real fast.


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## Prairie

Our horses are kept at home, but I'll at least put on a decent pair of clean jeans, a clean T-shirt, and comb my hair before putting on my helmet if I'm going to ride around the area----you never know who you might meet, and just in case I was hurt, I'm sure ER would appreciate not having to deal with filthy clothes and BO. If I'm riding on someone else's land, it's just respectful to be dressed neatly in clean clothes. A little soap and water never hurt anybody or their clothing unless it's dry clean only and even then, many of those dry clean only can be hand washed safely.


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## sarahfromsc

greentree said:


> Makes me itchy just thinking about it.....


Makes me want to do a load of laundry!

I trimmed two horses today. The temp was 91 with 92 percent humidity. I was soak through to the underwater! My bra I was able to wring out right along with the tshirt.

I think I need to take a shower......


----------



## sarahfromsc

Dehda01 said:


> Listen, I get it. I am significantly introverted and pretty antisocial. But you still need to start the day in clean/fresh clothes. No guarantees to my friends and family after that except for special occasions. I am the queen of the work and barn clothes. I will happily go shopping in my breeches and tall boots. Or barn jeans. If I am really filthy Though, I will change for everyone's sake. If I can smell myself, I won't go into Walmart that way or the grocery unless it is real fast.


I will go to the grocery store in my quilted carharts, and the Herman Munster boots, but they are cleanish after the winter barn chores, because I washed them prior to said chores.


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## sarahfromsc

ACK! What about the dead skin cells inside your pants, and the old oil from your skin?

ACK!

I'll stop now. To each his own.


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## Prairie

sarahfromsc said:


> I will go to the grocery store in my quilted carharts, and the Herman Munster boots, but they are cleanish after the winter barn chores, because I washed them prior to said chores.




That's pretty normal dress in the winter here, and everybody has at least 3 pair of Carharts---one to wear, one in the closet, and one in the wash! We often go to the feed store, grocery store, and parts store dressed to the 9's in our Carharts


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## sarahfromsc

LOLOL....Mine are a lovely faded shade of lavender.

I try to look somewhat feminine, despite the Herman Munster boots.

And if push comes to shove and the carharts are beyond redemption, I do have some lovely snow boarding pants that have seen their better days. But I do love the multitude of pockets on those.


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## Prairie

LOL, my "newest" pair are hand-me-downs from my almost 17 yo grandson---he outgrew them long before they were worn out so I grabbed them---of course the color is drab, but they were free to make up for that.


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## Hoofpic

I will wash my often but it wont be everyday. But it will be more often.


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## greentree

This is dredging up a never forgotten scent memory.....when I worked at the feed store in college, the older men would come in after working all day, and not all of them had a/c, even in southeastern Texas. fragrant.


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## sarahfromsc

Prairie said:


> LOL, my "newest" pair are hand-me-downs from my almost 17 yo grandson---he outgrew them long before they were worn out so I grabbed them---of course the color is drab, but they were free to make up for that.


Most of my barn clothes are clothes my boys grew out of....lolololol....jeans , shirts, sweatshirts. Gotta love those boys!


----------



## Golden Horse

sarahfromsc said:


> LOLOL....Mine are a lovely faded shade of lavender.


Lavender Carharts, that is nearly purple, do they have sparkles?


----------



## sarahfromsc

Golden Horse said:


> Lavender Carharts, that is nearly purple, do they have sparkles?


Only when it is snowing or sleeting and ice crystals form on them. Or frozen horse snot! Does that count?


----------



## Skyseternalangel

....please keep yourself and your clothes clean. Use fabric softener if you want "soft" jeans.......


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## Golden Horse

sarahfromsc said:


> Only when it is snowing or sleeting and ice crystals form on them. Or frozen horse snot! Does that count?


Yup frozen snot counts, that is a good decoration


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I can't believe your pants don't get dirty quickly especially at a barn ! If I even mention the word horses my riding pants get stains on them


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I can't believe your pants don't get dirty quickly especially at a barn ! If I even mention the word horses my riding pants get stains on them


I cant believe it either, but yes they just dont get dirty. I just washed my old jeans today (since I got new ones now) and I just took them out of the dryer. They dont feel or look much different than when they were dirty.

These are also a washed out blue so they hide the dirt incredibly well.

Im very curious to see what difference the new jeans make in the saddle for me. I will admit, I am not crazy about the look of them lol. Theyre nice around the waist but they get quite hot. I wish I went with a bootcut fit over the regular fit but cowboy cuts dont come in bootleg (or at leasy I didnt see any). If I could bleech them and wash them out, I would so do it.

I know it sounds odd (seeing how this is coming from someone who generally doesn't care what others think), but these jeans make bit very self concious. At least it did today when I wore them around. It makes me look like a cowboy (and that definitely ain't my style) haha.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Jeans are so much more comfy to wear when not washed. I never wash my jeans.


 Dude, I am a dude and that is just ..... nasty!


----------



## greentree

Hoof pic, that is almost funny....you have no problem with unwashed barn clothes, but those jeans make you feel self conscious?!?!


----------



## sarahfromsc

greentree said:


> Hoof pic, that is almost funny....you have no problem with unwashed barn clothes, but those jeans make you feel self conscious?!?!


:iagree: :rofl:


----------



## Prairie

Good grief, back when I had to dress to go to an office, I still threw my clothes I wore there in the laundry to be washed at the end of the day----clothes get dirty just from perspiration and shedding skin cells, brushing against dusty areas, and just being worn. Barns are far dirtier than any office I worked in, even ours which gets cleaned more often than the house!


----------



## Golden Horse

greentree said:


> Hoof pic, that is almost funny....you have no problem with unwashed barn clothes, but those jeans make you feel self conscious?!?!


Nearly as funny as someone who was thinking of buying a pair of fancy dude cowboy boots, feels like a cowboy in his jeans, and that isn't his style - color me confused.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoof pic, that is almost funny....you have no problem with unwashed barn clothes, but those jeans make you feel self conscious?!?!


Well believe it or not, the reason why I believe this pair of jeans (that Ive been wearing for the past year to the barn), are so soft is because of all the dirt caked into the seams. I looked at them last night after having them washed and they actually look better now than before because the colour has altered a bit.

I have to retire those jeans anyways because I was comparing it to my other pair of jeans and realized, the reason why it felt so tight around the waist is because theyre actually too small.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I think this has ventured a bit off topic.. Let's stick to fly .. Not dirty jeans.. We may found ourselves in a very awkward place..


----------



## Skyseternalangel

We need pics of Fly to cleanse our minds of the dirty unwashed jeans....


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I think this has ventured a bit off topic.. Let's stick to fly .. Not dirty jeans.. We may found ourselves in a very awkward place..


Yes I agree.

I didnt go to the barn yesterday because my saddle wasn't ready until the late afternoon so I will be heading out this afternoon after I pick up my saddle. Can't wait to see the new french twist in my stirrups. Im going to right away sit on it and stick my feet in them to see how I like it. Im confident that with my new riding boots, my feet wont feel too big in them.

I was wanting to ride her today, (and the trainer will be out), but seeing how yesterday and today is one of the BO's annual kids day camps where they come and play a bunch of games with the lesson horses in the arena, I would imagine the barn is going to be really busy. And because now I made myself the promise of not mounting Fly from the ground anymore, and that I wouldnt teach Fly to stand at the block until I got my trainer to help me with it. I will have to do something else.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, it's a TEXAS twist that you had done to your stirrup leathers, not a French twist which is a hairstyle. Please learn to use the correct equine terms if you are serious about horses.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, it's a TEXAS twist that you had done to your stirrup leathers, not a French twist which is a hairstyle. Please learn to use the correct equine terms if you are serious about horses.


Oh I thought it was French, the lady at the tack shop called it French twist.


----------



## karliejaye

The name varies regionally. Here we call it a Hamley Twist (from the famous saddle maker here in Oregon). I have heard Texas twist before, I have heard twist n turn. I don't know what it's called in all regions. There's a significant French influence in Canada, so maybe that's correct???


----------



## Golden Horse

karliejaye said:


> The name varies regionally. Here we call it a Hamley Twist (from the famous saddle maker here in Oregon). I have heard Texas twist before, I have heard twist n turn. I don't know what it's called in all regions. There's a significant French influence in Canada, so maybe that's correct???


Not so much of a French influence out west here, I've never heard French Twist, but maybe the saddlery there has it's own terms, or they are braiding his leathers for him.


----------



## karliejaye

Golden Horse said:


> Not so much of a French influence out west here, I've never heard French Twist, but maybe the saddlery there has it's own terms, or they are braiding his leathers for him.


That could be pretty, hahaha!


----------



## Hoofpic

Dont these Ariat's need to be sprayed and smeared with leather seal and protector? Thats what I forgot to do.

Whats your guy's thoughts on Hoofflex for dry hooves? The people at the barn swear by this stuff. I know lard works well too and probably cheaper. Hoofflex is not exactly cheap here, about $20.


----------



## Hoofpic

This is what I use now. You can get a tub version where the stuff is much more heavier and stays on longer.










I usually dont put anything on her hooves but this time of year the barn is really dry and all the horses get dry hooves. I will have to pick up some pinetar, I know that stuff is amazing for senstive hoofs. Good if a horse is a bit sensitive after a trim.


----------



## Prairie

No on the sealing and protecting the boots---that leather needs to breathe. I just use the same leather cleaner and conditioners on my Terrains as I do on bridles, halters, and saddles, usually twice a year.


A hard DRY hoof is a good hoof......don't use any type of hoof conditioner or oil ever unless under the advice of a vet. There is a large myth that hooves should be soft with is totally incorrect. A hoof needs to be hard as nails to support the horse and not chip or crack in rocky or hard conditions.


----------



## Prairie

The term that was used for the twist on this thread was "Texas" so that is the one I picked. Granted there are other recognized terms for it, but I've never heard it referred to as a "French" twist.


----------



## Zexious

I have to admit, this journal strays more frequently and to stranger places than any other journal I keep up with here on HF xD
On one hand you say your jeans don't get dirty and "look and feel the same" when they haven't been washed and when they have... but on the other you comment on the benefits of having dirt caked into the seams xD

As for the Ariats -- no. Allowing them to get wet and "live" in them is actually the best way to really break them in. 

And, given your tendency to overreact to things, I'd hold off on any hoof oil or polish. Maybe chat with your farrier or vet before committing?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> No on the sealing and protecting the boots---that leather needs to breathe. I just use the same leather cleaner and conditioners on my Terrains as I do on bridles, halters, and saddles, usually twice a year.


Ok thanks.



> A hard DRY hoof is a good hoof......don't use any type of hoof conditioner or oil ever unless under the advice of a vet. There is a large myth that hooves should be soft with is totally incorrect. A hoof needs to be hard as nails to support the horse and not chip or crack in rocky or hard conditions.


Okay. But dont these conditioners (even Pinetar) keep a barrier of moisture so that the hoof doesnt get too dry?

Fly's hoofs are hard and dry but have no cracks. Her frogs do have little odds and ends here and there that are loose and half hanging on. Nothing major, just maybe one bit on each hoof. I talked to my BO about it about 5 weeks ago, just after the farrier was out to trim Fly and he said that my farrier didnt take enough off from her frog (it was just one foot). So she had a small piece kinda half hanging on and the BO just pulled it off. He said it would do no harm because it will fall off eventually. 

Ive learned over time that my BO is a great source for hoof care and hoof anatomy. He has a very good eye when it comes to hoofs. He has a very good eye for everything. Honestly, he could easily trim feet himself (and he even said he would), if he wasn't disabled. I know (from what Ive heard and been told) that the farrier that he uses at the barn on all the horses (including all the boarders horses except Fly, Fly is the only horse to have an outside farrier), is very very good.

I have yet to watch her trim before, but Id say she could be even better than my farrier now. But my farrier is doing a good job and got Fly's feet all balanced, so why change whats currently working right? But if I ever have problems with my farrier now (fingers crossed I dont), then the first one I go to is the BO's.

Like last June, just after I got Fly (I didnt have her first trim until 3 weeks after I got her), one of her front hoofs had a couple minor cracks and was chipping off. My trainer at the time (during one of our lessons) just grabbed that piece and pulled it off her foot. Made me nervous but she said it was okay.

This of course was when I was transitioning Fly to a real farrier for the first time in her life since her previous owner trimmed her feet. She said she knew was she was doing, but turns out all 4 of Fly's feet were at different angles and she was unbalanced. 

I know at my barn, I will say one thing. Everyone is in love with keeping their horses hooves moist. Lots of conditioners and hoof products are always being put on. Some people put conditioners and oils on their horses hooves twice a day.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> Ok thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay. But dont these conditioners (even Pinetar) keep a barrier of moisture so that the hoof doesnt get too dry?
> 
> Fly's hoofs are hard and dry but have no cracks. Her frogs do have little odds and ends here and there that are loose and half hanging on. Nothing major, just maybe one bit on each hoof. I talked to my BO about it about 5 weeks ago, just after the farrier was out to trim Fly and he said that my farrier didnt take enough off from her frog (it was just one foot). So she had a small piece kinda half hanging on and the BO just pulled it off. He said it would do no harm because it will fall off eventually.
> 
> Ive learned over time that my BO is a great source for hoof care and hoof anatomy. He has a very good eye when it comes to hoofs. He has a very good eye for everything. Honestly, he could easily trim feet himself (and he even said he would), if he wasn't disabled. I know (from what Ive heard and been told) that the farrier that he uses at the barn on all the horses (including all the boarders horses except Fly, Fly is the only horse to have an outside farrier), is very very good.
> 
> Like last June, just after I got Fly (I didnt have her first trim until 3 weeks after I got her), one of her front hoofs had a couple minor cracks and was chipping off. My trainer at the time (during one of our lessons) just grabbed that piece and pulled it off her foot. Made me nervous but she said it was okay.
> 
> This of course was when I was transitioning Fly to a real farrier for the first time in her life since her previous owner trimmed her feet. She said she knew was she was doing, but turns out all 4 of Fly's feet were at different angles and she was unbalanced.
> 
> I know at my barn, I will say one thing. Everyone is in love with keeping their horses hooves moist. Lots of conditioners and hoof products are always being put on. Some people put conditioners and oils on their horses hooves twice a day.


Those little things on the frogs are probably just tags and nothing to worry about. You can cut them off if they bother you. Better yet, don't.

As for messing with frogs, this is where your BO and part ways. Most of the time frogs are to be left alone. If I have thrush build up I will work on the frogs to get to the thrush, but that is the only time I mess with the frogs.

Hard hooves are good hooves.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Some people put conditioners and oils on their horses hooves twice a day.


And some people wash their jeans once a year, doesn't make it right..

Most people spend money and time on products for horses to make themselves feel better, nothing to do with the good of the horse. I do not ever use hoof products.....my horses (cross fingers) never need it.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Those little things on the frogs are probably just tags and nothing to worry about. You can cut them off if they bother you. Better yet, don't.
> 
> As for messing with frogs, this is where your BO and part ways. Most of the time frogs are to be left alone. If I have thrush build up I will work on the frogs to get to the thrush, but that is the only time I mess with the frogs.
> 
> Hard hooves are good hooves.


The tags Im not too worried about, its just annoying when cleaning thats all. I know frogs will never stay in perfect shape and they constantly grow and parts become dead etc.

The reason why my BO took that piece off, was because it was 90% off anyways. He said it was dead and eventually going to come off very soon anyways. If it wasnt for the fact that it was almost off, I wouldnt have checked in with him.

My farrier comes back out this Saturday so I will ask him about it as well. I know Fly had her big growth spurt in her hoofs last trim. I will remember that for next year (just as spring hits), that I could easily have her trimmed in 5 weeks just because of the growth spike that time of year.

How exactly do you feel for hard hooves? From the outside hoof wall or the inside sole? Do you just press on it with your finger or tap on it? Sorry, I sat in on that hoof anatomy lecture at the Mane Event and this is something that I probably should have asked then. It would have been a very good question, also seeing how they had a vet there as well, I could have gotten the answer from both people.

Thats one thing I deeply regret doing, not asking enough questions for all those lectures that I sat in on. But when I go back out to the one in October, I will be. And I will be spending some time auditing the dressage clinics and taking more time to learn more about saddles, stirrups, bits, cinches, chat more with the saddle makers to find out exactly what makes a good saddle, etc.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> And some people wash their jeans once a year, doesn't make it right..
> 
> Most people spend money and time on products for horses to make themselves feel better, nothing to do with the good of the horse. I do not ever use hoof products.....my horses (cross fingers) never need it.


I do believe that you dont need these hoof conditioners, a friend of mine told me this awhile back and ever since then I quit using them. Even though ever since I got Fly, I never really put anything on her hoofs. I think Ive used conditioner on her hoofs maybe 5 times total since I got her with only 1 of those 5 times being at the barn now. I found it to be more trouble than its worth putting that stuff on.

Im still on the original bottle of conditioner that I bought over a year ago and its still full.

I know the very very first trainer that I learned from. I would go out to her place where she had her 16 horses. She was teaching me how to pick feet, groom, etc. And the one thing that she had me do every single time after picking feet was putting conditioner on every horses hooves. Put it on the outside wall, the sole, the frog, the coronary band. I spent an awful lot of time doing that. She swore by this stuff and that if you want healthy hooves, this stuff is a must in every horse owners grooming box.

But I do believe that the reason why so many people use hoof conditioners is because they are 100% convinced they need them. Want to prevent dry hooves or cracks? You need conditioner. Not saying this is true but I do feel that they believe it is.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I never did anything with my Ariats and wore them daily to the barn, rain, snow or shine. They were dunked in water buckets, I was stepped on by muddy hooves, I stepped in more mud puddles than I care to think about....and they lasted five years through near daily use and abuse. Heck, the only reason I ended up getting rid of them is because I started working at a dealership washing cars and wore the Terrains daily, so they were wet constantly. After six months of that torture, along with me gaining so much weight that my feet swelled, they finally were too tight for me to wear comfortably anymore.


----------



## Prairie

My Terrains certainly have lasted well for being almost 6 years old.


You can't"feel" for hard hooves unless you are trimming them which I really recommend that you not try. I can tell if our horses' hooves are hard just by checking them when I clean them----if no chips or cracks are present, they're good. We use an ELPO certified farrier so she trims the dead off the frog as part of mapping the hoof to determine what to trim. She'll trim the ergots and chestnuts if they are getting long as part of her work too since she likes a "clean" horse.


The hoof itself will create a barrier against the weather, mud, puddles, etc. and all the commercial hoof products do is soften the hoof which is the opposite of what you want. Don't believe all the commercial hype you hear and read----advertising is not a reliable source of information.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic;9226049. said:


> Good if a horse is a bit sensitive after a trim.


 *NO! So very much no, *if your horse is sensitive and ouchy after a trim.... your farrier sucks! A horses feet shouldn't be anymore sensitive after a trim than your feet after a pedicure.


----------



## natisha

6gun Kid said:


> *NO! So very much no, *if your horse is sensitive and ouchy after a trim.... your farrier sucks! A horses feet shouldn't be anymore sensitive after a trim than your feet after a pedicure.


You gettin' pedicures K?:razz:


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> *NO! So very much no, *if your horse is sensitive and ouchy after a trim.... your farrier sucks! A horses feet shouldn't be anymore sensitive after a trim than your feet after a pedicure.


I dont think its out of the ordinary for horses to have hooves a bit sensitive right after a trim and that lasts only a day or two. I know at the old barn, horses would always have sensitive hoofs after trims and owners would avoid walking them on gravel.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I never did anything with my Ariats and wore them daily to the barn, rain, snow or shine. They were dunked in water buckets, I was stepped on by muddy hooves, I stepped in more mud puddles than I care to think about....and they lasted five years through near daily use and abuse. Heck, the only reason I ended up getting rid of them is because I started working at a dealership washing cars and wore the Terrains daily, so they were wet constantly. After six months of that torture, along with me gaining so much weight that my feet swelled, they finally were too tight for me to wear comfortably anymore.


Sounds like I made the right choice with the Ariats.  They seem to be very tough shoes. I could probably even use them as hiking boots if I ever go hiking (Which is pretty much never...I use to enjoy hiking but I have zero interest in hiking anymore, its just boring) and too straining on my legs.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well this just made my day. Thank god they were saved.

A photo, a miracle, saves 2 from New Holland


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I dont think its out of the ordinary for horses to have hooves a bit sensitive right after a trim and that lasts only a day or two. I know at the old barn, horses would always have sensitive hoofs after trims and owners would avoid walking them on gravel.



You might not think it is out of the ordinary, because your experience is so limited...in the last 10 years I have had one come up ouchy after a trim, and I was on the phone to my farrier, because it was so out of the ordinary....

You need far more exposure to a lot more to get a better sense of what normal is.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I dont think its out of the ordinary for horses to have hooves a bit sensitive right after a trim and that lasts only a day or two. I know at the old barn, horses would always have sensitive hoofs after trims and owners would avoid walking them on gravel.


You don't know enough to form an educated opinion. Just because the horses at the old barn had sensitive feet after a trim doesn't mean that is correct. That just means that whatever farrier(s) they were using were crap.

My gelding gets trimmed on a 12 week cycle. Any shorter than that and there isn't anything to really trim. He is NEVER ouchie or sensitive after a trim. None of the horses I've ever worked with have been sensitive after a good trim, either, even the thin-soled TBs and the Arab filly who was ridiculously prone to stone bruises.


----------



## karliejaye

Ouchie feet more than once on accident means a fired farrier in my book. Not normal and not okay. To me it means the farrier doesn't understand how to properly read the anatomy of the hoof.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> I dont think its out of the ordinary for horses to have hooves a bit sensitive right after a trim and that lasts only a day or two.


 Well, I hate to break it to you champ, but you are wrong!


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> Natisha, I just dropped the saddle off. The lady said that the guy is doing the twist method where its permanent and no broom stick handle.
> 
> Now shopping for riding boots. I just triedon a pair at the tack store. $237CDN! Wow. And thats half off the regular $480 price. Im going to visit a couple more shops. I shouldnt need to spend $200+ on roding boots.
> 
> Isnt no grip on the soles bad in the stirrups?


Still reading through, but had to comment. Need to chuckle about the price. The boots I'm currently wearing (my day to day cowboy boots, since I find them far more comfortable than tennis shoes (and safer in a lab environment)) were roughly $200. My short paddock boots were $110 (English; my half chaps were around $80 I think? They run into the hundreds too), and my tall boots I *think* were around $450. I can't actually remember now, but I remember choking a bit on the price. And I only ride in those when I show (or breaking them in a bit doing regular riding)

Ok, back to reading the rest of it :lol:


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic, go online and study the hoof. How it works, the 'parts', know what a good hoof looks like and what a bad one looks like.

You certainly need to educate yourself in BASIC HORSE CARE AND KNOWLEDGE. 

No hoof no horse for riding or Liberty!

Get some education.


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I know mounting from a block vs the ground is always a topic up for debate. I see it all the time in clinics and shows, riders mounting from the ground all the time. Now, I dont know who told me this and Im not saying this person is right. But they said that if you do it properly and are quick in getting on and off....mounting or dismounting from the ground wont put any strain on a horse. They also say, as long as you arent over their weight load that the horse can carry, you are okay. They said the reason most people use a block is because of the added height and it makes it easier for them to get on.
> 
> I dont mind using a block for now on, even when outside. Now, I dont think Fly has been taught before to stand at a block but getting her to stand at a block shouldnt be any different than me holding the reins and getting her to stand from the ground right?
> 
> I will mention this to my trainer. She will probably be a bit puzzled as to why I want to do this but ill just tell her that i feel im not properly getting on Fly from the ground.
> 
> If anything, Im just curious as to why Im the only person (or one of the few) riders at the barn who mounts from the ground. Maybe she just thinks i dont need a block because Im tall.
> 
> The one thing that I dont like, when getting off a horse from the ground is when you get off. You put all your weight onto their withers and shoulders as you lean forward to lift your leg back to get off. I would think this would be much worse for a horse than getting on. But thats just my opinion.


Still not done, but had to respond to this too...

I use a mounting block every single time. Matter of fact, Izzie has never been mounted from the ground. It's something I *should* introduce in case I need to mount on a trail, but I just haven't yet. And she's 6.

One thing though, in response to the speed. A quick mount with someone yanking and pulling up will be just as awful as someone going slow. What *I* have heard with regards to mounting from the ground, is you should not do it if you can not get on them with the girth loose. I don't remember where on Earth I heard this, but it's stuck in my mind. If your girth is loose, and you attempt to mount while using a lot of force in the stirrup, your saddle will roll. Just think of the torsion your mounting is causing to the horse's back.

Also, take a moment to watch this video (for another time if someone else has posted it already...)


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

^^ That just LOOKS painful!! :shock:


----------



## Hoofpic

Im happy!


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I dont think its out of the ordinary for horses to have hooves a bit sensitive right after a trim and that lasts only a day or two. I know at the old barn, horses would always have sensitive hoofs after trims and owners would avoid walking them on gravel.


It's very much out of the ordinary for a horse to be sensitive after a trim and not acceptable. 

As kid said...get a new farrier if that's what you are dealing with.


----------



## Prairie

Glad you're happy. Why didn't your riding trainer notice that your stirrups were not turned? That's one of the first things I check when working with a newbie riding a new western saddle.


I've never had a horse ouchie after a trim......and if I ever do, that will be the last time that farrier sets foot on this place unless it was do to the horse being a PIA. And PIA horses are corrected promptly and sharply for misbehaving with a farrier since their hooves are cleaned daily so there is no excuse for jerking that hoof.


----------



## greentree

In 50 years of horse ownership, I have never had even ONE be sore after a trim. I have been doing my own trimming for 3 years, on 13- 15 horses, and never had a sore one.

Time to start using the barn's trimmer.


----------



## Hoofpic

No, no Fly hasnt been sensitive from my current farrier. It was the previous farrier that I was using at the previous barn but I no longer use him. He was lazy and never mentioned anything about Flys feet being unbalanced and he took too much off her heal. Fly had sensitive feet for 2-3 days after each trim, one time a week. I remember calling him that one time last summer and asked him and he said "its normal for some horses to have sensitive soles for a few days after each trim...you just need to allow a few days to pass and dont walk her on gravel. Walk her on the barn sand and it helps with the sensitivity"

The current farrier got her fixed up and got those heels back down.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> No, no Fly hasnt been sensitive from my current farrier. It was the previous farrier that I was using at the previous barn but I no longer use him. He was lazy and never mentioned anything about Flys feet being unbalanced and he took too much off her heal. The current farrier got her fixed up and got those heels back down.


That doesn't make any sense. If the old farrier took off too much heel, then her heels were already down.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, no Fly hasnt been sensitive from my current farrier. It was the previous farrier that I was using at the previous barn but I no longer use him. He was lazy and never mentioned anything about Flys feet being unbalanced and he took too much off her heal. The current farrier got her fixed up and got those heels back down.
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't make any sense. If the old farrier took off too much heel, then her heels were already down.
Click to expand...

If thats the case, then the previous owner would be to blame since she trimmed Fly each time and obviously shes not a farrier.

But still a good farrier should have mentioned it and got them balanced. But he didnt. This is what my current farrier said as well. He kept taking off more heal.

So Flys entire hoof wasnt hitting the ground each step she took. The BO said he noticed Flys heals a bit high when I arrived at the new barn too.

Whats scary is that the previous farrier was highly recommended to me by one fof the half lease trainers at the barn and she described him as the most amazing farrier in the world. She has high expectations and theres only a few farriers she would trust.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, can you post pictures of Fly's hooves from the front, the side, and then the bottoms with the camera set level with the hoof so there is no distortion? 


By the way heal has to do with getting over an injury. Both you and a horse have a "heel" on your feet. Perhaps a good horse terminology textbook would be a good investment for you.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> In 50 years of horse ownership, I have never had even ONE be sore after a trim. I have been doing my own trimming for 3 years, on 13- 15 horses, and never had a sore one.
> 
> Time to start using the barn's trimmer.


Thats good though. For me, almost every horse after every trim was a bit sensitive.

Wait, you are a farrier? Didnt know that. Or do you just trim on the side?


----------



## sarahfromsc

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That doesn't make any sense. If the old farrier took off too much heel, then her heels were already down.


I was like Hells bells, like WTF? To much heel to little heel. Does he even KNOW what is being discussed?


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Hoofpic, go online and study the hoof. How it works, the 'parts', know what a good hoof looks like and what a bad one looks like.
> 
> You certainly need to educate yourself in BASIC HORSE CARE AND KNOWLEDGE.
> 
> No hoof no horse for riding or Liberty!
> 
> Get some education.


 Im still trying to find an affordable terminology book


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> If thats the case, then the previous owner would be to blame since she trimmed Fly each time and obviously shes not a farrier.
> 
> But still a good farrier should have mentioned it and got them balanced. But he didnt. This is what my current farrier said as well. He kept taking off more heal.
> 
> So Flys entire hoof wasnt hitting the ground each step she took. The BO said he noticed Flys heals a bit high when I arrived at the new barn too.
> 
> Whats scary is that the previous farrier was highly recommended to me by one fof the half lease trainers at the barn and she described him as the most amazing farrier in the world. She has high expectations and theres only a few farriers she would trust.


I am so @$&:!-$:?.€.£*{'m confused! Who trimmed Fly before? A farrier or the previous owner? What does your current trimmer say?

Hells Bells hoofpic there is a whole forum on just hooves here on HF. Go $&!/*%~ read that forum. You will learn something....hopefully. Maybe.

WTF is wrong here?

Oh, never mind.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> Im still trying to find an affordable terminology book


It is free online! FREE!


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> Thats good though. For me, almost every horse after every trim was a bit sensitive.
> 
> Wait, you are a farrier? Didnt know that. Or do you just trim on the side?


Many of us trim our own horses because we spent the time to study.


----------



## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> Im still trying to find an affordable terminology book


Try this-
http://www.equusite.com/cgi-bin/dictionary/dictionary.cgi


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## OoLaurenoO

So Ive dabbled in this thread a little but Ive not kept up to date. - Who could its got ten new pages every other day, how many pages need to be designated to the discussion of jeans vs cargo pants or whatever they are? Thats amazing. Hoof pic, my advise to you is calm down. Stop over analysing every tiny aspect and just enjoy your horse. Ive ridden in jeans, jodhpurs, tracksuit pants, swimmers, shorts, a skirt, boots, joggers, barefoot, saddled, bareback, with a bridle, with a halter, with a bit of string around their neck, and even once with a piece of bailing twine holding my stirrup iron when the leather snapped while out bush one day. Is it best practice? Nope. Did it magically make me a better or worse rider? Nope. Yes its good to ask questions but you may find if you stopped asking questions for five seconds about inconsequential details and just start listening they will teach you so much more. You don't know what you don't know and becoming obsessed with these little details is the fastest way to seal your mind from noticing and learning so many other important things.


----------



## Zexious

Wait, are you looking for another (now liberty?) trainer?
Stick with one until you have the basics down.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic... Another good site for understanding hooves is the ELPO website. Google it. 

There's also a wonderful sub forum on here that is FULL of FREE info on hooves, as sarahfromsc said. 

In addition to that, there is yet ANOTHER thread on here about horse terminology.


----------



## tinyliny

Moderators note:
Some posts were removed due to being out right rude to the OP. Please remember that the focus is on helpful and friendly. If you cannot offer helpful or friendly comments or advice or feedback., Then bite your tongue and hold it back.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, you need to remember that horses are expensive and you get what you pay for. Take advantage of the free sites on the internet, but also supplement that knowledge with some good books on horses. Without knowing and understanding the terminology and basic concepts, you won't progress in horsemanship since you won't understand what is being said.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> I am so @$&:!-$:?.€.£*{'m confused! Who trimmed Fly before? A farrier or the previous owner? What does your current trimmer say?
> 
> Hells Bells hoofpic there is a whole forum on just hooves here on HF. Go $&!/*%~ read that forum. You will learn something....hopefully. Maybe.
> 
> WTF is wrong here?
> 
> Oh, never mind.


The previous person who trimmed Fly was my previous farrier. Before that was the previous owner.

I have been in the hoof section on here before, not for long though and just a couple times. I will read some more.


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> Well I never go out to gatherings but if I do on the odd occasion, I dont wear my barn clothes. But if Im stopping to get lunch (always the case because Im always on the go), then I dont bother. Not going to dress up nice just to pick up something as Walmart.
> 
> And this is a big change for me, because when I was really young, I was big a major prep but as you get older, you realize that there is more to life than clothes and overdressing. Back then, I never even had a hoodie or pair of jeans in my closet. It was all dressy stuff.
> 
> But over the years my tastes and wardrobe completely changed. I still have some nice clothes, but I find nothing more uncomfortable than office attire. Gross. Give me runners and track pants and a hoodie any day of the week. Unless the time calls for it, I have no interest in dressing up anymore.


Still not done, but oh my gosh. My style hasn't ever really changed. I have always been a jeans and t shirt girl. I work in an ENORMOUS Fortune 500 company building (I'm a contractor, and this place is known worldwide), so I wear a plain shirt and jeans. But it's CLEAN. EVERY. SINGLE. WEEK. I do laundry. EVERYTHING gets washed. I may reuse my riding pants for a couple of rides, but they are washed often (and I have a few pairs to rotate).

The comment about having a pair of pants you only washed ONCE in the last year seriously made me gag.

I get that it's your life and you can do as you wish, but oh my gosh. I just cannot fathom having ANYTHING go that long without a washing!

I also go many places in my riding clothes. Often go to Meijer (another version of Walmart) in my muck boots and riding pants. Always after a ride, but I go home, shower, change, and those clothes go into the hamper to wash. Just wow.

I'm at least glad you got the terrains. Those are my regular work boots. I have muck boots for when the field will be a muddy mess (mud would come over the top of the terrains). Those at least were a good choice...


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic, go to local thrift stores and look for horse books. I've picked up more horse books than I can count for under $5 at thrift stores and yard sales. Check them out from the local library. Go on Amazon and find *used* books. As long as they're in good shape, they don't have to be brand new.

Look at this, even with shipping, these books are under $20 (probably even that cheap shipping to Canada):

https://www.amazon.com/Kingfisher-I...TF8&qid=1467984620&sr=8-7&keywords=horse+book

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Hor...F8&qid=1467984620&sr=8-14&keywords=horse+book

https://www.amazon.com/Smithsonian-...F8&qid=1467984716&sr=8-24&keywords=horse+book

https://www.amazon.com/Horses-Dummi...F8&qid=1467984754&sr=8-36&keywords=horse+book

https://www.amazon.com/First-Horse-...F8&qid=1467984768&sr=8-43&keywords=horse+book

https://www.amazon.com/Cherry-Hills...984792&sr=8-1&keywords=cherry+hill+horse+book

https://www.amazon.com/Horse-Hoof-C...84792&sr=8-13&keywords=cherry+hill+horse+book

I have this one and I LOVE it. Easy to follow diagrams and instructions. Something to think about when you're riding on your own.
https://www.amazon.com/101-Arena-Ex...84864&sr=8-42&keywords=cherry+hill+horse+book


----------



## Tazzie

Ok, finally finished.

Glad to hear that it was at least a former farrier who made her sensitive. Izzie has been sensitive ONCE after a trimming. A stupid farrier (that I will NEVER use again) took off way too much heel. Izzie has high-low syndrome, so it was a BIG deal he tried to make the hoof "normal." I even reminded him it was a high foot and please don't just chop all the heel off. He did anyway. Had a horse sore for a few days, and one VERY mad owner. He's not welcome to so much as look at Izzie now. And I pay a considerable amount more for a better farrier (my favorite farrier go a job at Rood & Riddle in their podiatry department; our new farrier is the only one he would recommend to work with Izzie knowing her condition.) I pay $60 for a trim. SIXTY just to TRIM her feet. But, I'm getting what I pay for. Healthy, properly balanced feet, and the high hoof is being managed as it should be.

I'm with everyone else though, begging you to buy a book on terminology. And please, please, PLEASE spell check before posting. There have been a few I've caught (excersize is exercise...) I live with the world's worst speller. Which is why it drives me CRAZY when someone claims they know how to spell, but do that. And mix up heel and heal and rein and reign.

Buy a terminology book. Study it. Perhaps buy a book solely on horse equipment as well so you know all the different things to use. Read the hoof help section on here (there are MANY great replies from people who work with hooves on a daily basis.)

I do have one question (and mods, you can delete if it's inappropriate; I'm just HIGHLY curious.) Do you live alone, or with your parents? I'm still so hung up on the not cleaning clothes regularly part. As a mother, I would rather DIE than to have my kids out in public in clothes that are GROSS. My kids are 2 and 3. If we are at home, by all means, get filthy and it'll be bath time when the day is over. But we have to go somewhere? Quick clean down, and those kids are in CLEAN clothes and shoes they are ONLY allowed to wear out in public (aka, not at the barn, not driving their big truck, and not jumping in mud puddles.)


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Tazzie said:


> Glad to hear that it was at least a former farrier who made her sensitive. Izzie has been sensitive ONCE after a trimming. A stupid farrier (that I will NEVER use again) took off way too much heel. Izzie has high-low syndrome, so it was a BIG deal he tried to make the hoof "normal." I even reminded him it was a high foot and please don't just chop all the heel off. He did anyway. Had a horse sore for a few days, and one VERY mad owner. He's not welcome to so much as look at Izzie now. And I pay a considerable amount more for a better farrier (my favorite farrier go a job at Rood & Riddle in their podiatry department; our new farrier is the only one he would recommend to work with Izzie knowing her condition.) I pay $60 for a trim. SIXTY just to TRIM her feet. But, I'm getting what I pay for. Healthy, properly balanced feet, and the high hoof is being managed as it should be.
> 
> I'm with everyone else though, begging you to buy a book on terminology. And please, please, PLEASE spell check before posting. There have been a few I've caught (excersize is exercise...) I live with the world's worst speller. Which is why it drives me CRAZY when someone claims they know how to spell, but do that. And mix up heel and heal and rein and reign.


Per the underlined, that is a regional thing. Canadians tend to use the more European/British English spellings of words. Exercize, colour, behaviour, etc.

Regarding the first part, about lopping off too much heel...when I worked for my friend, we had a gelding come in for retraining (who was owned by the same people who owned my gelding) who was a 4yo OTTB. The farrier these people used had trimmed his heels so short that it was THREE MONTHS before we could let him on anything other than his heavily-bedded stall or super soft dirt/sand. He was tender on just regular, semi-firm ground. Our farrier took one look at him when he was dropped off (he happened to be there trimming a few of the horses at the barn) and said he wouldn't even look at him again for at least eight weeks to let his heels grow out. The people who owned him had been riding him that way and couldn't understand why he was so crazy (the people were idiots anyway). When we took my gelding in to be retrained, his hooves were so ridiculously out of whack that it took eight months of corrective shoeing to get them back to normal enough to be barefoot. Same farrier as trimmed the OTTB had worked on my gelding, too.


----------



## Tazzie

Did not know that. Though, he still spelled it wrong even if he meant exercize :lol:

That farrier sounds like he shouldn't be touching horses... This one really only trims his horses, so he's not out ruining a lot of them. The one I have now is as brilliant as the one we lost.


----------



## Prairie

Since our neighbors across the street where I grew up were Canadian, I'm familiar with the differences in spellings, but that still doesn't explain most of them made by Hoofpic. Hopefully he know realizes that using the correct terms is critical when discussing any subject and will learn equine lingo now.


We use an ELPO farrier who is fantastic. It was only after the first time she trimmed our TWH's that I was able to keep the mare in a flat or running walk-----her breakover point was not in balance with the underlying bones so she didn't gait. After that trim, I discovered that she actually is multi-gaited with 8 identifiable "gears". The farrier makes a huge difference in how a horse moves.


----------



## Hoofpic

Great news!

The french twist, new shoes and gloves really really helped and i felt so much better in the saddle. Trainer said back is so much more straight and Fly was bending better today esp on the 20m circles. I bet this was from me being straight.

I was surprised how much gloves help.

I got on Fly from the mounting block today! Trainer was completely fine with my decision when I told her that I only want to mount Fly from the block from now on. She said she understands.

Trainer said I had a really good ride. She said she loves teaching me because of my willing attitude.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Ok, pal, I have a deal for you. PM me your mailing address and I will do something I have never done, I am going to part with one of my personal books, one that is considered one of the best for first time horse owners. First Horse, by Fran Smith.
But, and this is part of the deal, I want you to read it cover to cover, and really understand the information in it before you start pontificating new ideas. 
Deal? Ball is in your court, homie.
I bought this book for my ex, and once she realized the expense, effort, and time a horse requires, she decided that she did not want to own her own horse, just enjoy mine.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

6gun Kid said:


> Ok, pal, I have a deal for you. PM me your mailing address and I will do something I have never done, I am going to part with one of my personal books, one that is considered one of the best for first time horse owners. First Horse, by Fran Smith.
> But, and this is part of the deal, I want you to read it cover to cover, and really understand the information in it before you start pontificating new ideas.
> Deal? Ball is in your court, homie.
> I bought this book for my ex, and once she realized the expense, effort, and time a horse requires, she decided that she did not want to own her own horse, just enjoy mine.


:clap::dance-smiley05::loveshower:

That is a SUPER generous offer, @6gun Kid!! You're a good guy!


----------



## jenkat86

6gunkid...I have no idea how to work any functions on the forum when on mobile, so I can't like your post or quote it but I would like to. But man, I wish someone would have given me an offer like that when I was a beginner!


----------



## Prairie

6gunkid, that is a very kind offer! Unfortunately, I gave all our horse books to my grandkids when they first showed an interest in horses and we found a wonderful been there, done that paint mare to teach them. DD's a fine horsewoman, so could have taught them what they needed to know, but there's something about actually physically having books to learn from that makes learning so much better.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Great news!
> 
> The french twist, new shoes and gloves really really helped and i felt so much better in the saddle. Trainer said back is so much more straight and Fly was bending better today esp on the 20m circles. I bet this was from me being straight.
> 
> I was surprised how much gloves help.
> 
> I got on Fly from the mounting block today! Trainer was completely fine with my decision when I told her that I only want to mount Fly from the block from now on. She said she understands.
> 
> Trainer said I had a really good ride. *She said she loves teaching me because of my willing attitude.*


*

yes you do have a willing attitude, which is rarer than you think. some folks think it means "step all over me while you're at it", but you seem to be like, " amoungst the abuse there are gems, I'll take it all." 

more power to you, mister.
*


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I never go out to gatherings but if I do on the odd occasion, I dont wear my barn clothes. But if Im stopping to get lunch (always the case because Im always on the go), then I dont bother. Not going to dress up nice just to pick up something as Walmart.
> 
> And this is a big change for me, because when I was really young, I was big a major prep but as you get older, you realize that there is more to life than clothes and overdressing. Back then, I never even had a hoodie or pair of jeans in my closet. It was all dressy stuff.
> 
> But over the years my tastes and wardrobe completely changed. I still have some nice clothes, but I find nothing more uncomfortable than office attire. Gross. Give me runners and track pants and a hoodie any day of the week. Unless the time calls for it, I have no interest in dressing up anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> Still not done, but oh my gosh. My style hasn't ever really changed. I have always been a jeans and t shirt girl. I work in an ENORMOUS Fortune 500 company building (I'm a contractor, and this place is known worldwide), so I wear a plain shirt and jeans. But it's CLEAN. EVERY. SINGLE. WEEK. I do laundry. EVERYTHING gets washed. I may reuse my riding pants for a couple of rides, but they are washed often (and I have a few pairs to rotate).
> 
> The comment about having a pair of pants you only washed ONCE in the last year seriously made me gag.
> 
> I get that it's your life and you can do as you wish, but oh my gosh. I just cannot fathom having ANYTHING go that long without a washing!
> 
> I also go many places in my riding clothes. Often go to Meijer (another version of Walmart) in my muck boots and riding pants. Always after a ride, but I go home, shower, change, and those clothes go into the hamper to wash. Just wow.
> 
> I'm at least glad you got the terrains. Those are my regular work boots. I have muck boots for when the field will be a muddy mess (mud would come over the top of the terrains). Those at least were a good choice...
Click to expand...

I will be washing my clothes more often. Now when I think of it, I feel bad for going out in public (even if its just to eat lunch or get some snacks at the store with me smelling like horses.

I will admit, the reason I cant smell it is because Im so used to it by now but others arent, so it will bother others. And not everyone cares for barn smell.

The Ariats are great. Its amazing how much of an impact the new shoes made in my ride today. I FELT SO MUCH MORE COMFY AND LIGHTER. I was able to lean back so much more and effortlessly today. Wonder if thats just me mentally programming my mind to lean back and that leaning back is my new safety comfort spot (which I have been doing it through CBt), or if its the shoes. Or both.

I was able to take my foot out of the stirrup with ease at a full rising trot and put my foot back on at a trot. Didnt have to fool around with the stirrup or twist my ankle to get it in. Thank you guys once again for telling me to get them twisted. Its an unreal upgrade.

Feet came right out when I wanted them to. No more shaking my feet vigourously.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Ok, pal, I have a deal for you. PM me your mailing address and I will do something I have never done, I am going to part with one of my personal books, one that is considered one of the best for first time horse owners. First Horse, by Fran Smith.
> But, and this is part of the deal, I want you to read it cover to cover, and really understand the information in it before you start pontificating new ideas.
> Deal? Ball is in your court, homie.
> I bought this book for my ex, and once she realized the expense, effort, and time a horse requires, she decided that she did not want to own her own horse, just enjoy mine.


Youre awesome and totally was not expecting this. I will PM you with my address and I will send something back to you as a thanks.


----------



## Hoofpic

OT.

Im really excited but I will admit a bit nervous. It was time for me to get new lenses and an eye test so I figured I might as well get new frames as well. Its been 3 years and I wanted a change. My frames now are still fine but I just get bored every now and then with glasses and want something different.

I also wanted bigger glasses. Im just into big glasses, partly for style because theyre different (and I like different stuff), but mainly because you have more lens to see out of. Well, being someone who has always had sunglasses and eyeglasses all my life, I got tired of always switching back and fourth between the two and often always to carry around both pairs wherever I am. A lot of switching back and fourth. If I wore contacts, then having two pairs of glasses wouldnt be an issue but I hate contacts.

But even if you just run into the grocery store on sunny day. For someone who needs eye glasses on all the time, you sacrifice either your eye glasses or your sunglasses, unless you want to carry two pairs around. Its a major nousense. When I used to wear sunglasses, there would be days that I would easily switch glasses back and fourth 8, 9, 10 times a day. 

So over the past year and a half, I stopped wearing my shades all together. I just got tired of all the switching. This is so bad for your eyes, especially seeing how many hours I spent over the past year outside at the barn. UV rays will kill yourr eyes over time. Just a couple weeks ago, I pulled out my shades and said I got to start wearing them again, simply to protect my eyes.

I hate having to switch back and fourth between the two and carrying around two pairs is a PITA IMO. I know transitions are not a replacement for sunglasses (I will still keep my sunglasses in my car), but at least I will have better UV protection on the eyes when outside and no need to switch frames over and over again or carry two pairs around. So for the first time ever, I got transitions in my new glasses. Ive always been skeptical of them but I think for me right now it will suit my lifestyle. I want UV protection and some tint on the eyes when im outside without having to constantly switch glasse and carry two pairs everywhere. Transitions would really help at the barn seeing how I constantly go inside and outside. So it will be interesting to see how I find transitions! I I could very well love them, but I also could very well hate them and go back to regular lenses. But Im confident I will love them.

And also, Im a bit nervous because of the choice of frames I got. Theyre big. Really big. Oversized for my head? A bit. But I like to be different, take chances and have my own style and not care what others think. But Im confident that because of my shape of head, I can pull off these frames. They a lot bigger than my current glasses, but the amount of lens that you get to see through is heavenly goodness. So much better! Its definitely not a pair that you see often on people because of the size. But they are so comfy and SO light compared to what I have now. People might give me wierd looks because they may think they look funny. But I dont care what others think. But they do make me look like a geek, which IMO I dont care. Definitely a risk pair in terms of its size and style but I think I can pull it off. 

Theres a good chance my new glasses should be in next week, cant wait! I always get excited when I get new glasses, I know it sounds wierd but I just do.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

My husband has Transitions lenses. He loves them at first, but now he's tired of them. His prescription isn't too bad (he can still see somewhat without his glasses and is fine driving and working without them...unlike me who can't legally drive without my glasses), so when he gets new glasses, he's already said he's just going with plain lenses and will get a pair of nice sunglasses. We are outside A LOT, so they were a big deal when he got them.

Also, remember that they don't transition when you're in the car. The UV tint on your windshield prevents them from changing.

New glasses are always fun. I have worn glasses since I was in the 4th grade (33 now) and I've found my taste in frames has changed A LOT. I like different, but can't go too big because of how chunky and round my face is.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My husband has Transitions lenses. He loves them at first, but now he's tired of them. His prescription isn't too bad (he can still see somewhat without his glasses and is fine driving and working without them...unlike me who can't legally drive without my glasses), so when he gets new glasses, he's already said he's just going with plain lenses and will get a pair of nice sunglasses. We are outside A LOT, so they were a big deal when he got them.
> 
> Also, remember that they don't transition when you're in the car. The UV tint on your windshield prevents them from changing.
> 
> New glasses are always fun. I have worn glasses since I was in the 4th grade (33 now) and I've found my taste in frames has changed A LOT. I like different, but can't go too big because of how chunky and round my face is.


Yes I am aware of transitions not working in the car. Not an issue for me since I have tinted windows anyways and I havent worn my sunglasses in a year and a half. 

For me, it will be nice to continue not carrying around sunglasses, but also have darker lenses when its sunny out. Especially since Im always inside and outside at the barn, I couldnt imagine havingn to constantly switch between two pairs non stop. Especially when my sunglasses are so big, its a PITA to carry around. Not exactly pocketable.

I would say these new frames are borderline on whether they suit me or not. When I first tried them on, I immediately fell in love with them but said I couldnt get them because they look hiedous on me. But I love how they sit on me, how they look and I like different stuff and I dont care what others think so I got them. It did take some convincing though on my part on whether they would be a good choice for me. 

Theyre not the best style for me, but theyre different and thats what I want. My frames now are fine but they feel small now, kinda boring and I want bigger.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic, as you gain experience and knowledge you will begin to see how form meets function. What I mean by this is- there is a specific reason why a roping saddle differs from a cutting saddle. A wild rag isn't just meant to be a fancy scarf. There is a reason there are bootcut jeans instead of just straight leg...

When you begin using the correct items for their intended uses (like not riding in work boots and riding in actual riding boots...) things will definitely become easier! So I have no doubt that your new combination of boots/stirrups/jeans are helping you improve! I'm glad you felt the difference.


----------



## Prairie

There are a variety of glasses that will darken and lighten depending on the sunlight. When I needed prescription lens for both reading and distance, the glasses I had worked great-----it's been too many years since I needed glasses for distance, so I don't recall what brand the lens were. I also did not need sunglasses over them since they really darkened. Hope you enjoy the transition lenses----that is certainly easier than being a glasses "flipper" or misplacing a pair!


Did you also wear your new jeans along with the Terrains? I think you find that having the proper clothing and correctly adjusted equipment will make riding more pleasant.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> 6gunkid...I have no idea how to work any functions on the forum when on mobile, so I can't like your post or quote it but I would like to. But man, I wish someone would have given me an offer like that when I was a beginner!


Im very grateful for his offer, I just PMed him my mailing info and will post a pic of the book when I receive it. Hopefully, shipping isnt too expensive. Im in Canada. 

Canada Post apparently is going on strike in the next week or so. Oh noes. :sad:


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Do you live alone, or with your parents? I'm still so hung up on the not cleaning clothes regularly part


I live with my parents. I rent out their basement suite. This way I save money on what a place like this would cost me on my own, and I help with their bills as I pay their utility and TV bills every month.

I know its not the best for a 35 yr old guy to be living at home, and if I was to ever meet a girl, it would be something that I would need to address by moving back out on my own. But Ive been single for almost 3 years now and (though yes it would be nice to be in a relationship again), Im not in one so that lets me get by. Im too busy to be in any relationship and if I was to meet a girl again, they would always come second after Fly. And chances are (unless the girl is into horses herself), no girl would be okay with that. But Fly is always first and I will not drop everything I have going and push it to the side for a girl I just met. Ive been down that road many times in my life and going by past learning experiences, I slowly get to know them and ease them into my life. So if things work out, great. If not, I dont have my heart broken again.

They would have to be okay with me spending this much time with Fly and at the barn. Thats why Ive been saying to myself lately, if I get into dating again, Im best off meeting girls who also have horses so right there, my love for horses will not be an issue.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> yes you do have a willing attitude, which is rarer than you think. some folks think it means "step all over me while you're at it", but you seem to be like, " amoungst the abuse there are gems, I'll take it all."
> 
> more power to you, mister.
> [/B]


One of the trainers that I used at the old barn didn't see my willingness to learn. He would always laugh at me during and after lessons (this really bothered me), because he had no confidence in me. He didnt think I could become a good horseman because he felt I didnt have the mindset. He never said "good job", "great" or gave any compliments. He would just laugh at me and make cheesy jokes. He did teach me some valuable stuff but he was pretty unprofessional at times.

My very very first trainer that I learned from (well before I even had Fly) and my most recent outside trainer both said the exact same thing as what my current trainer said today. That they very much enjoy coaching me because of my attitude and will to learn. I think your atittude is everything, it will dictate how much you go in terms of your learning. A good positive attitude will take you places, the sky is the limit. 

With my trainer now, I just do as she requests. There are some things that I do NOT like doing - like rising trot with one foot out of the stirrups (did it again today), but I do it and dont argue. I do it because I trust her in making me a better rider, so I trust her judgement. I just go as she asks. No questions asked. But what seperates her from any of my past trainers is her atittude that gives me confidence. Im still very much learning, so I will have doubts and up and downs in my learning journey. She sees it, but she takes my downs and turns them to ups and basically tells me that she knows I can do it. This is arguably one of her best qualities as a trainer.

As you all saw in my videos, she is very vocal, upbeat, has energy. But she can and will be incredibly hard on you when need to be and righfully so. She said she does it because she wants all her students to do their best and reach their potential.

I just want to learn, learn, learn. And she sees that. I want her to WANT to coach me and to get thrill and pleasure in doing so and by me being open, just doing as she asks, it makes it easy for her because Im showing complete trust in her. 

My trainer and I have come a long ways over the past few months. A long ways. We have both gotten to know each other better, I have become better acquainted with her coaching style and she has earned my trust. 3 months ago, she didnt have my complete trust. Because the outside trainer was in place of her for the most part. How quickly times have changed.


----------



## tinaev

You will love your transitions lenses for riding!

I have worn glasses since I was a kid and have a big prescription. I cannot function without prescription lenses in any capacity. For the last ten years I have been without vision insurance so just paying for my exam and a cheap frame with clear lenses was really all I could afford. Over time I became accustomed to the clear lenses and it wasn't a big deal, I didn't feel like I was missing the transitions. 

Well about 3 years ago I was offered a job at my optometrist's office. I jumped on the opportunity and it's been great. One of the best things for me is that I get a free eye exam and 2 free pair of glasses with whatever options I want in the lenses every single year. This new job coincided with my getting horses for the first time. So the first year I stuck with clear lenses and got rx sunglasses too. Hated that! Go in the barn, change your glasses, walk back out, change your glasses. No thank you. So the next year I got transitions and it's been wonderful. I find it's the perfect amount of tint to take the harshness off riding outdoors and yet it's not so dark that I can't walk into the barn to put my saddle away. I never feel I have to take them off, it's great.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Hoofpic, as you gain experience and knowledge you will begin to see how form meets function. What I mean by this is- there is a specific reason why a roping saddle differs from a cutting saddle. A wild rag isn't just meant to be a fancy scarf. There is a reason there are bootcut jeans instead of just straight leg...
> 
> When you begin using the correct items for their intended uses (like not riding in work boots and riding in actual riding boots...) things will definitely become easier! So I have no doubt that your new combination of boots/stirrups/jeans are helping you improve! I'm glad you felt the difference.


I have been starting to see it in spurts here and there over the past few weeks but especially today. Kept my back a lot more straight, when I got into trouble, Im leaning back, head up looking to where I want to go, and woula...Fly just happened to bend better today than previous days. Better turning, better pace, better circles, more responsive when giving leg. There is no doubt in my mind, that was purely from me leaning back more and her feeling me more in the seat.

When I keep my head up and my eyes at eye level looking at the letters, I am a better rider. Im more confident and Im less easily distracted with my reins, hands, etc. Like the BO told me today, "the faster you go, whether its at a trot or canter...the further ahead you need to look". 

I will say, now that I am leaning back more...I am become less scared when leaning back and gaining more confidence when I have my back straight. This is a good sign. My trainer said it best, "the worst thing you can do when you get in trouble is lean forward".


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> There are a variety of glasses that will darken and lighten depending on the sunlight. When I needed prescription lens for both reading and distance, the glasses I had worked great-----it's been too many years since I needed glasses for distance, so I don't recall what brand the lens were. I also did not need sunglasses over them since they really darkened. Hope you enjoy the transition lenses----that is certainly easier than being a glasses "flipper" or misplacing a pair!
> 
> 
> Did you also wear your new jeans along with the Terrains? I think you find that having the proper clothing and correctly adjusted equipment will make riding more pleasant.


Thanks. Im optimistic that I will love the new lenses. I think with my lifestyle right now, transitions are the way to go. It just gets old having to flip flop glasses all the time. Would rather have one pair on my head 99% of the time.

I always keep my current pair of glasses as backups. Just never know when you may need them.

I didnt wear the new jeans today. I wanted to see how I would do without them today. I wore my other set of jeans (retired my old set) as my other set of jeans were 1 size up around the waist so I wanted to see how it felt compared to the jeans Ive been riding in all this time (Which were too small). My other set of jeans is one size up, straight leg (a lot less baggier than the old set) and it was a lot more comfy.

I will be honest, I'm not sure if I really need the cowboy cut jeans. But they were inexpensive so Im still going to give it a try on Sundays lesson and see if I notice any difference.

I was pleasantly surprised by how great the gloves felt. Instantly I felt more comfortable with them on, I felt I had more contact with my reins and just better grip on them. Very glad I got a pair.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> You will love your transitions lenses for riding!
> 
> I have worn glasses since I was a kid and have a big prescription. I cannot function without prescription lenses in any capacity. For the last ten years I have been without vision insurance so just paying for my exam and a cheap frame with clear lenses was really all I could afford. Over time I became accustomed to the clear lenses and it wasn't a big deal, I didn't feel like I was missing the transitions.
> 
> Well about 3 years ago I was offered a job at my optometrist's office. I jumped on the opportunity and it's been great. One of the best things for me is that I get a free eye exam and 2 free pair of glasses with whatever options I want in the lenses every single year. *This new job coincided with my getting horses for the first time. So the first year I stuck with clear lenses and got rx sunglasses too. Hated that! Go in the barn, change your glasses, walk back out, change your glasses. No thank you. *So the next year I got transitions and it's been wonderful. I find it's the perfect amount of tint to take the harshness off riding outdoors and yet it's not so dark that I can't walk into the barn to put my saddle away. I never feel I have to take them off, it's great.


Thats exactly why I finally decided to get transitions for the first time. I want to be able to walk in and out of the barn and not have to change glasses over and over. Same thing when running errands and going in and out of stores or buildings. I wish I did this last year. Wearing reg lens glasses outside on hot sunny days is just not good for the eyes. I can't wait for them now.  Im so excited.


----------



## tinyliny

I had tranisition lenses a few years back, for the first time. I didn't like the way they always made me feel like it was later than it really was, or, that the weather was darker than it really was. however, I live in a place where sunny weather is the rarity, so we don't want to squelch that in any way.

Hoofpic; I hope you enjoy your new lenses. it's always a challenge getting used to new glasses. at first , it can feel that you'll NEVER get used to the new prescription, . . . and then, . over time . . they feel like old friends.

iv'e been wearing glasses since age 14. I declined lasik. hubby did it, but I did not.


----------



## Hoofpic

After the ride and Fly was dried and cooling off. She discovered the hidden salt block and was licking it for over 15mins so I just let her have it haha.


----------



## Hoofpic

I cant remember who it was, but someone here asked if I could take pics of Flys feet (believe from the soles, leveled on the side (close as the ground as possible) and front view and back. Can someone tell me what angle I should be taking these pics from?

Her trim is tomorrow and I will forsure take pics for you guys to see her feet post trim and let me know what you think.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> I cant remember who it was, but someone here asked if I could take pics of Flys feet (believe from the soles, leveled on the side (close as the ground as possible) and front view and back. Can someone tell me what angle I should be taking these pics from?
> 
> Her trim is tomorrow and I will forsure take pics for you guys to see her feet post trim and let me know what you think.



Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

From loosie


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I live with my parents. I rent out their basement suite. This way I save money on what a place like this would cost me on my own, and I help with their bills as I pay their utility and TV bills every month.
> 
> I know its not the best for a 35 yr old guy to be living at home, and if I was to ever meet a girl, it would be something that I would need to address by moving back out on my own. But Ive been single for almost 3 years now and (though yes it would be nice to be in a relationship again), Im not in one so that lets me get by. Im too busy to be in any relationship and if I was to meet a girl again, they would always come second after Fly. And chances are (unless the girl is into horses herself), no girl would be okay with that. But Fly is always first and I will not drop everything I have going and push it to the side for a girl I just met. Ive been down that road many times in my life and going by past learning experiences, I slowly get to know them and ease them into my life. So if things work out, great. If not, I dont have my heart broken again.
> 
> They would have to be okay with me spending this much time with Fly and at the barn. Thats why Ive been saying to myself lately, if I get into dating again, Im best off meeting girls who also have horses so right there, my love for horses will not be an issue.


Thank you for answering me Hoofpic. I thank you for your honesty there. First off, I totally didn't realize you were in your 30s. I had you pegged for younger than that. Hey, if the living arrangement works, it's whatever. I moved back in after I graduate college since I got a job up there, and my parents suggested it. Glad to hear you help with rent and utilities.

Very glad you are washing your clothes more... I wash Nick's jeans multiple times to make them soft as that is how they get softer (that and he works in manholes, which is nasty work).

With regard to Fly versus a significant other.... if you will only put Fly first, you better find a horse girl to date. Nick HATED horses when we bought Izzie. She's changed his mind, but that doesn't mean he loves all horses. And he knows she doesn't rank above him. I love both of them, and joke some days she may edge him out of the number 1 spot, but that isn't ever true. I do get where you are coming from since Fly is there first. Just, I wouldn't look at girls that don't own horses :lol:

Far as transition lenses, my brother had them years ago and hated them. Granted the technology was fairly new at that point (he's 27 and has worn glasses since he was 18 months.) I just have a pair of prescription sunglasses and swap them. But I rarely get ready in a barn, and when I do, I'm riding inside anyway. It's to each their own.

Glad all the things you changed made a difference. I only ever ride in gloves. Only ride without them if I forget to put them back in my helmet after a show.

Sorry for the rambling post lol its early so my brain is still scattered (and I'm on my phone, so excuse typos or strange words randomly put in; my phone is junk)


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, if you ride often, you need more than one pair of jeans. One pair being worn, one pair in the laundry, and another pair in the closet works for many people. Washing your clothes is just basic cleanliness and certainly not hard to do----why put on dirty clothes after taking a shower? 


If you have times, take pictures of Fly's hooves both before and after she's trimmed.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I cant remember who it was, but someone here asked if I could take pics of Flys feet (believe from the soles, leveled on the side (close as the ground as possible) and front view and back. Can someone tell me what angle I should be taking these pics from?
> 
> Her trim is tomorrow and I will forsure take pics for you guys to see her feet post trim and let me know what you think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
> 
> Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
> 
> Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
> 
> Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
> 
> Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
> 
> Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
> 
> Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
> 
> Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos
> 
> From loosie
Click to expand...

Thanks Sky. Will take a look at it  It will be a good learning experience for me so I dont expect it to be perfect. 

I will take pics today when I head out.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, if you ride often, you need more than one pair of jeans. One pair being worn, one pair in the laundry, and another pair in the closet works for many people. Washing your clothes is just basic cleanliness and certainly not hard to do----why put on dirty clothes after taking a shower?
> 
> 
> If you have times, take pictures of Fly's hooves both before and after she's trimmed.


You are right. Last night I decided that I will be going shopping today and picking up more hoodies. If I plan on washing my clothes more often I need to have more than one so I can cycle through them.

This morning, I walked out of the house with fresh clothes  The other ones are in the wash.


----------



## Prairie

I hope you showered before putting on the clean clothes and walking out the door. While you're shopping, pick up another pair of jeans or 2, socks, undies, and some shirts so you have enough clean ones to wear between washing them. 


If you go to the barn today, please take pictures of Fly's hooves as those links showed so we can compare them to after the trim.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> I hope you showered before putting on the clean clothes and walking out the door. While you're shopping, pick up another pair of jeans or 2, socks, undies, and some shirts so you have enough clean ones to wear between washing them.
> 
> 
> If you go to the barn today, please take pictures of Fly's hooves as those links showed so we can compare them to after the trim.


You make it sound like I dont wash any of my clothes. Its just more hoodies that I need thats all.

i actually return those cowboy jeans that I bought for another colour. Grey jeans. I couldnt stand the look of the others, made me look like a cowboy wannabe and it was so not my style. Plus they got so hot because theyre so dark. The new ones are at least a lot more discreet and more sutle and should stay cooler. Love the colour.


----------



## Prairie

You were the one who stated how long it had been since you washed your clothes......


You must be very sensitive to heat since we get a lot hotter down here and nobody seems to have an issue wearing dark colored jeans. Hope you like the grey jeans and will post a picture wearing them since I've never seen grey jeans for sale down here.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Thank you for answering me Hoofpic. I thank you for your honesty there. First off, I totally didn't realize you were in your 30s. I had you pegged for younger than that. Hey, if the living arrangement works, it's whatever. I moved back in after I graduate college since I got a job up there, and my parents suggested it. Glad to hear you help with rent and utilities


I always get that, always have all my life. People still think I look 24,25. When I was 18, I looked like I was 13 haha.



> With regard to Fly versus a significant other.... if you will only put Fly first, you better find a horse girl to date. Nick HATED horses when we bought Izzie. She's changed his mind, but that doesn't mean he loves all horses. And he knows she doesn't rank above him. I love both of them, and joke some days she may edge him out of the number 1 spot, but that isn't ever true. I do get where you are coming from since Fly is there first. Just, I wouldn't look at girls that don't own horses


I would love to meet a nice girl who has horses or a big passion for them. But its not a deal breaker for me if they aren't. If they aren't, they must be okay with how invested I am into the horse world.

Same if I were to date a single mother. Their kid(s) always come first and they dont push anything aside for another man.



> Far as transition lenses, my brother had them years ago and hated them. Granted the technology was fairly new at that point (he's 27 and has worn glasses since he was 18 months.) I just have a pair of prescription sunglasses and swap them. But I rarely get ready in a barn, and when I do, I'm riding inside anyway. It's to each their own.


Im crossing my fingers that I fall in love with them. A risky I take though. My biggest concern was when you walk right into a building after coming outside. It takes time for your lens to go back to clear. So in the mean time, my glasses will be tinted. And I was never a big fan of glasses with tinted lenses. I had a pair back in the day and wore it for 2 months before I realized how they werent for me and I found them cheesy.

So its a risk I take, that I could look like a tool with these glasses on but again its a trade off you have to make if you dont want to carry two pairs around. For me, I am willing to accept this trade off and simply because I dont care what others think how I look as well. 



> Glad all the things you changed made a difference. I only ever ride in gloves. Only ride without them if I forget to put them back in my helmet after a show.


Yes they all made a noticable difference and on Sunday I will wear my riding jeans to see if theyre more comfy.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I would love to meet a nice girl who has horses or a big passion for them. But its not a deal breaker for me if they aren't. If they aren't, they must be okay with how invested I am into the horse world.
> *
> Same if I were to date a single mother. Their kid(s) always come first and they dont push anything aside for another man*.


Having been a single mother myself, I have to say that the statement I highlighted in bold is one of the most mature, thoughtful things I have seen you say, Hoofpic. It's more difficult than you can imagine to find someone who is willing to take a backseat sometimes when you already have kids. I'm lucky that my husband loves my son from my previous marriage as if he were his own.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> You were the one who stated how long it had been since you washed your clothes......
> 
> 
> You must be very sensitive to heat since we get a lot hotter down here and nobody seems to have an issue wearing dark colored jeans. Hope you like the grey jeans and will post a picture wearing them since I've never seen grey jeans for sale down here.


The dark royal blue ones were super hot around my legs. I like the look of jeans but ones with different shades. This is why the grey ones I instantly liked. Depending on the light, sometimes it looks like blue, sometimes light grey.

Are cowboy cuts longer on length than regular jeans? Im guessing so it can be put over boots? Cause these are my regular size but theyre longer than my other pair of regular jeans. Not a big deal, ill live. I think they would be comfy to ride in.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to meet a nice girl who has horses or a big passion for them. But its not a deal breaker for me if they aren't. If they aren't, they must be okay with how invested I am into the horse world.
> *
> Same if I were to date a single mother. Their kid(s) always come first and they dont push anything aside for another man*.
> 
> 
> 
> Having been a single mother myself, I have to say that the statement I highlighted in bold is one of the most mature, thoughtful things I have seen you say, Hoofpic. It's more difficult than you can imagine to find someone who is willing to take a backseat sometimes when you already have kids. I'm lucky that my husband loves my son from my previous marriage as if he were his own.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Ive always been supportive of single mothers and though Ive never dated anyone with kids, I have had friends in the past who were single moms. They get misjudged and mistreated for no reason what so ever. Its not fair.

I love kids (especially when they're toddlers), so I have a soft spot for single mothers. If I was to date one, I would have no issue with me taking a backseat in the relationship. If anything, it would perhaps work out the best for me since I have Fly in my life. 

I've known and met my share of guys in life who say they would never date a single mother because they dont want to be put on the back seat. That just makes no sense. If they love kids, they would have no issue with this. Guys like this need a serious wake up call. If it was them as a single father, they would hate being misjudged like that by other single women.

Just going by past experiences in my past relationships, I know that the best approach in dating is keeping yourself busy. Really busy. The last thing you want is too much time on your hands. Keep yourself busy with other things happening in your life and you wont fall for someone too quickly. When you have nothing going on, you are in a vulnerable state to fall for someone too quickly. This is why for me, in my stage of my life, its all about patience. I would rather be friends with someone at first for the first year, two, if not longer before dating and not get hurt at the end, versus jumping into it too quickly and getting hurt at the end.

And (I know many girls will think this sounds mean or Im a jerk because I know that most women wnat a man who will make time for them), but if I was to ever meet a girl, that girl does NOT become a part of my life right away. She starts off as a friend, who I talk to and see when I have time, and that person is catered around my schedule, not in. My ex was super clingy (and though she was THE person who ultimately got me into horses), she was far too clingy and had to talk everyday, non stop. I cant stand that. I would not date another girl like that who needs constant attention.

Also, I dont chase girls. I never have and never will. Im just not that kind of person.

Because I just dont think I could handle another heart break. This is why I took the past 3 years off from dating because ever since my last break up, I just shrugged my shoulders and said, I need a break from relationships.

The thing with dating these days is that (not everyone), but it seems that majority of people today have become far too about looks. I dont have time for the BS and headgames that go on in relationship. And this is why ever since my last relationship, I will be honest, I dont even know if marriage is something I ever care to do in my life anymore. Its just so hard to meet good friends nowadays, let alone your best friend and companion.

So right now, Fly is my best friend.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

I feel like we're re-socializing you and giving you a makeover. We're literally being mother hens right now... but you feel better right? That's all that counts.


----------



## Hoofpic

Sorry guys my hoof pics arent very good. I ran out of time taking pics before Flys trim today. Got caught talking with one of the boarders for an hour.

I got pics of all 4 feet with the sole but because we dont have a concrete barn floor, the best place for me to have a leveled surface to take them on was in the barn isle. Its not perfectly flat but the best you would find here. 

There are a couple concerns i have but ill post them first later today.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> I feel like we're re-socializing you and giving you a makeover. We're literally being mother hens right now... but you feel better right? That's all that counts.


I dont mind at all. What do you mean giving me a makeover?


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Im very grateful for his offer, I just PMed him my mailing info and will post a pic of the book when I receive it. Hopefully, shipping isnt too expensive. Im in Canada.
> 
> Canada Post apparently is going on strike in the next week or so. Oh noes. :sad:


Didn't make it to the post office today, sorry. My DW just bought a couple of saddles for our little side biz, and I got snookered into waking for fedex all day. 
I will get there next week.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Didn't make it to the post office today, sorry. My DW just bought a couple of saddles for our little side biz, and I got snookered into waking for fedex all day.
> I will get there next week.


No rush, whenever you get around to it. Thanks again.


----------



## Hoofpic

Here are some pics of Flys hooves after the trim today. Now I know they are not great. I did take pics of each sole but because she just got trimmed, I didnt feel comfortable already jabbing at them with the hoofpic to clean them so I dont think it would be very useful to post the pics. I can re-take them again tomorrow when I clean out the hoofs.

Front


















Front right










Front left


















Back right


















Back left


----------



## Hoofpic

I know this pic looks bad. Im almost certain, that hoof wasnt on a flat sandy surface. 

I am a bit concerned about the gaps like seen here. Shouldnt the entire hoof, all around be touching the ground? I know its really hard because we dont have a hard perfectly flat surface at our barn and the sand in the tack isle is the best we have.


----------



## greentree

I think her heels look underrun.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I think her heels look underrun.


What do you mean? All 4 of them?


----------



## OoLaurenoO

Here is a more extreme version (not the worst but more obvious then your mares) of an under run heel/collapsing heel. See how the coronet band is going straight and then at the back of the hoof it curves towards the ground. It's a bit hard because he has some white hair right at the back there. It is caused when people think they are down on the heel and so they leave it long. Unfortunately that just causes it to collapse down under the hoof so that the side of the hoof becomes the base of the hoof and the heels get left longer and longer so they get worse and worse. This was the horse before his first trim at my place. It took a little while but the hoof is back to normal now. Also note the shadow in the second pic. The back part of the hoof looks darker, not the best pic but that's shadow. That's because if you ran your hand across the hoof you could actually feel where it dipped away. My farrier picked it when he was standing two yards away in the dirt just because of the way the shadow hit the hoof. Anyway I'm not the most experienced with feet. Until recently I've had the pleasure of a brumby with amazing feet but in the last couple of years I've had younger and more difficult hooves to deal with. It's hard to find a good farrier when you don't know what you're looking for. I went through about five before I finally found a great one.


----------



## OoLaurenoO

Just to give you a bit more of an idea. The hoof shod before the trim.
The sole of the hoof with the shoe removed. You can clearly see that the shoe was resting on the walls of the hoof at the heel. It's actually curved over and growing basically parallel to the ground. The other photos are just zoomed in to give you a better view.


----------



## Prairie

Yup, the heels are under-run and those flares need to be addressed. Also, look how the bottom of the hoof wall is not sitting level all around on the ground. 


Hoofpic, you need to fire that farrier and find one who knows how to properly map the hoof and trim the hoof according to the underlying bone structure so the breakover point is correct----that farrier will also have to address the under run heels and flare. 


By the way, at least in the US, jeans for men are sold by waist size and inseam (leg) length.......for example my hubby takes a 33x34 jean. 33 is the waist size in inches and 34 is the inseam in inches. I'd assume that's true in Canada too, but the measurements may be metric.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Why can't you pick our a hoof are a trim?

Not a fan of the trim at all, but would still like to see sole shots.


----------



## Hoofpic

OoLaurenoO said:


> Just to give you a bit more of an idea. The hoof shod before the trim.
> The sole of the hoof with the shoe removed. You can clearly see that the shoe was resting on the walls of the hoof at the heel. It's actually curved over and growing basically parallel to the ground. The other photos are just zoomed in to give you a better view.


Thanks Lauren. I see what you mean now. This was the case before too on previous trims. So basically, Fly's heels are too low and needs more taken off.

I will be honest, I was becoming a bit less of a fan of my farrier after the last trim seeing how he didnt take enough off the frogs. I was NOT happy!


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Yup, the heels are under-run and those flares need to be addressed. Also, look how the bottom of the hoof wall is not sitting level all around on the ground.
> 
> 
> Hoofpic, you need to fire that farrier and find one who knows how to properly map the hoof and trim the hoof according to the underlying bone structure so the breakover point is correct----that farrier will also have to address the under run heels and flare.
> 
> 
> By the way, at least in the US, jeans for men are sold by waist size and inseam (leg) length.......for example my hubby takes a 33x34 jean. 33 is the waist size in inches and 34 is the inseam in inches. I'd assume that's true in Canada too, but the measurements may be metric.


When you say flares, are those the gaps along the outside wall, between the ground and hoof? So those are bad afterall then! I was right, when looking at a hook from the outside flat on the ground, the entire outside wall should be touching the ground. I knew it!

Im going to ditch this farrier and go with the BO's. The farrier that every single horse on the property gets their feet trimmed by. I fully trust my BO and I know just how seriously he takes hoofs. He is very specific on what he looks for in a farrier and I have no doubt in my mind that the one that we use at the barn is VERY good. Over the past couple months, (I know I dont have an eye yet for a good trimmed hoof) but I like to look at see all the other horses at the barn's hooves and see how they are trimmed. They were all very nice and I didnt see a single hoof that had gaps on the lower outside wall. They all were touching the ground.

I will talk to the BO about it today and maybe even get him to look at Flys feet and see what he thinks. I know after the last trim, when he saw that my farrier failed to take enough off of that one frog, he was not impressed. I will be honest, my BO has always been a bit weary of my farrier. Months ago, he would ask me about him, what kind of experience he has, how I found him, etc. He knows that what farrier I use is ultimately my decision because Fly is my horse, but I know deep down he wants nothing but the best for Fly and I. There is no doubt in my mind that I need to go with the BO on this one and use his farrier for now on.

My question is, would you wait until the next trim to address the flares and underrun heels? I guess the BO would have to see and assess. Perhaps not get his farrier out right away but maybe in 3-4 weeks time?

The one thing that I will miss using the BOs farrier is no longer being able to watch and chat and get to know them. Every horse when they get trimmed, the trainer and BO bring into the barn and stay with the horse to get trimmed and put them back out. The farrier comes by every 2 weeks but she comes only on weekdays in the mornings and those just arent good times for me  Sometimes she will be there in the afternoons and perhaps I could make it out, but really there's no point if the trainer and BO bring the horses in themselves. 

I would love to watch but the fact is, I dont want the BO and trainer to think that I dont trust them or the farrier (which I do fully trust them). If anything, Im probably better off leaving it to the BO explaining to his farrier on what exactly she needs to fix on Flys feet. He knows hoofs much better than I do and when he sees it today, he will know what to fix. So you know what? Im fine if im not there.

Its like when Fly had her teeth floated. Same thing. I wanted to bring her in, be there, but I wasnt because the dentist actually came earlier in the morning than expected so by the time I got there, she was just all finished up.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

The frogs don't need to be taken down...... why do you keep inisting that happens!? Frogs need to be large to be stimulated via contact with the ground, so that circulation in feet happens.

http://www.hoofrehab.com/FrogTrim.html


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> The frogs don't need to be taken down...... why do you keep inisting that happens!? Frogs need to be large to be stimulated via contact with the ground, so that circulation in feet happens.
> 
> http://www.hoofrehab.com/FrogTrim.html


No I mean Flys heels need to come down.


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> No I mean Flys heels need to come down.


You're very confusing.. this was your earlier post



Hoofpic said:


> I will be honest, I was becoming a bit less of a fan of my farrier after the last trim seeing *how he didnt take enough off the frogs*. *I was NOT happy!*


Please read the link I sent. Frogs are rarely trimmed, only if they are causing issues. Loose flaps of the frog are trimmed just to prevent thrush but that is it.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks Lauren. I see what you mean now. This was the case before too on previous trims. *So basically, Fly's heels are too low and needs more taken off.*
> 
> I will be honest, I was becoming a bit less of a fan of my farrier after the last trim seeing how he didnt take enough off the frogs. I was NOT happy!


Read this article Underrun Heels in Horses from Practical Horseman | Practical Horseman Magazine and watch this video


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> The frogs don't need to be taken down...... why do you keep inisting that happens!? Frogs need to be large to be stimulated via contact with the ground, so that circulation in feet happens.
> 
> http://www.hoofrehab.com/FrogTrim.html


Ok.

But i was watching him trim yesterday and he was taking off some of her frogs. He was using the long filer.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Ok.
> 
> But i was watching him trim yesterday and he was taking off some of her frogs. He was using the long filer.


You don't trim frogs with a rasp... they're trimmed lightly with a knife. A rasp would tear the frog up.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Lauren. I see what you mean now. This was the case before too on previous trims. *So basically, Fly's heels are too low and needs more taken off.*
> 
> I will be honest, I was becoming a bit less of a fan of my farrier after the last trim seeing how he didnt take enough off the frogs. I was NOT happy!
> 
> 
> 
> Read this article Underrun Heels in Horses from Practical Horseman | Practical Horseman Magazine and watch this video
Click to expand...

Thanks. Looks like basically Flys feet need to come back. Very good video.


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## OoLaurenoO

I was worried about the frog when my farrier trimmed that horse. Because the heels were so stuffed up once he started to change everything it looked like they sticked out a lot more then they should and I asked him about it. - Just fix the hoof and the frog will take care of itself. Was his reply. He has never touched the frog and that horse was never sore after a trim.


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## Hoofpic

Well Im not very happy and Im sure Fly could tell during our ride in our lesson today. I wasn't fuming with anger during our lesson today but it did take me a minute or two to get my emotions back in check when tacking her up and bridling her. But once I got on, I was fine.

First, I didnt get around to talking to my BO about switching to his farrier because I didnt see him. sundays are bad days because he goes to church in the morning and part of the afternoon and a lot of times I dont see him. I will talk to him on tues when I go out. I will most likely have to show him Fly's hooves to give him an idea of whats going on.

Second, you guys know how Ive been trying to teach Fly that she is not alot to try to get grass unless I give her the que right? Well, the thing is, she doesnt know what my que is (in allowing her to eat grass), which obviously this would be when I hand graze her. We havent worked on this enough. I probably should address it for good right now.

Today, she tried to put her head down for grass as I was closing the gate (after catching her to come out of her field) and I said no and held the lead tight (i couldnt do more because I was doing up the metal latch on the chain so my hands were busy) and then all of a sudden she curls her head around and tried to bite me. A big vicious bite, she made it very obvious that she was not happy with me not letting her eat grass. 

So i immediately said NO, whacked her as hard as I could on her neck and immediately chased her back really fast. I made myself big (as big as I could) and chased her back fast as I could. Used all the energy that I could muster into me to drive her back and all I pictured was driving her back. id say probably 12 steps.

i was wanting and wishing that I could take her to the roundpen after this but I knew it would have been pointless. No point.

So after my lesson, I was about to put her back out. I forgot to clean out her hooves after the ride in the barn so I did it outside. Was picking out one of her back rear feet and she tried to put her head down. Right away, I said NO and again made myself as big as I could and backed her up. Made her march back.

Both times, I just carried on with whatever I was doing after as if nothing happened. I dont pause in between, I dont say a single word to Fly. 

So I went back to cleaning out her hoof and again Fly was considering trying to put her head down for grass but she thought twice and didnt do it. I wonder if she got the point. When I saw that head start to come down, I said NO, dont even think about it and her head came back up right away.

Now, this was the most LOUD that I have been with Fly ever. I kinda wish I got it on tape. Im sure I could step it up a notch still. 

When she tried to bite me, I tried hitting the reset button (like I do with everything else when correcting her for it) but because it was so unexpected, it wasnt working! It really spoiled my mood for my lesson.

If she tried to bite, (for me), there is no point even trying to smack her muzzle because she will have her head back quicker than you think. So thats why I went for her neck.


----------



## Hoofpic

I was finally able to get Fly to lope today with me on her! (3rd lesson now that we tried), and I was very happy, but I think my trainer was more happy and thrilled than I was simply cause of this whole incident of Fly trying to bite me today. Uhhh.


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## greentree

Good for you!!! Sounds like you need to be in a bad mood more often!!


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Good for you!!! Sounds like you need to be in a bad mood more often!!


it was okay for me to be upset and be in a nasty mood when Fly tried to bite me, but IMO not after. I really tried hitting the reset button in my head but it just wasnt workign today. I dont know why. When I was tacking her up, I shouldnt have been in a bad mood. Fortunately, I was able to quickly drop my emotions as soon as I got in the saddle. because you dont want to be working with your horse when you are angry.

I still feel that I have another level though in terms of me stepping up and making myself even bigger and more of a crazy man.

One thing that I know forsure is that I have to be MUCH LOUDER and bolder with Fly than with any other horse in her herd. Her herd mates, I could apply the same amount of pressure and they would all 3 scoot off like darts. Not Fly, she wont scoot off. She will back up and yield to you but because of her dominate personality, she has and always will be a lot more work and difficult to get to back up and yield to you than any other horse. She will always have something to say about it.

The difference is pretty sifnificant too.


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## greentree

No, being in a bad mood gave you the STRENGTH to get the training done. That stregth is what you have been lacking in leadership.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> No, being in a bad mood gave you the STRENGTH to get the training done. That stregth is what you have been lacking in leadership.


Training as in my ride you mean?

So its okay if the time calls for me to act like an out of control maniac towards Fly?


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Why can't you pick our a hoof are a trim?
> 
> Not a fan of the trim at all, but would still like to see sole shots.


I will get you guys sole shots on Tues. 

I was going to get them today but I was so exhausted. Spent 2 hours filling gopher holes in my mares field with rocks. A lot more work than I thought it was, especially walking and standing in the super hot sun but I got it done.


----------



## Hoofpic




----------



## Prairie

Actually a temper has no place in working with horses. Fly was testing the boundary of good behavior, and it sounds like you did a good job reinforcing that boundary. Horse are always pushing just to see what they can get by with, but as a novice, you probably missed the signs so she escalated the pushing.


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## Zexious

What a gorgeous photo! <3<3 I didn't realize Fly was such a little thing!


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Actually a temper has no place in working with horses.


In other words, yelling, screaming, letting out anger, rage is not acceptable. I do think you can raise your voice, but no screaming or yelling.



> Fly was testing the boundary of good behavior, and it sounds like you did a good job reinforcing that boundary. Horse are always pushing just to see what they can get by with, but as a novice, you probably missed the signs so she escalated the pushing.


I did a noticably better job than before and Id say this was my best one to date in terms of me handling it. Why? Because I have a different demeanor that I was lacking before. Its all that clinic watching, observing of other trainers, clinicians, including my trainer that has really sunk into my head in terms of how exactly to use your energy and body language to drive a horse. I know what has to be done. And the #1 thing is that you have to believe that you are the leader the entire time doing it.

And I know you guys dont want to hear about her again, but my outside trainer taught me some stuff that I still find valuable today. I just know right now, Im much better using my body language and I owe a big thanks to my outside trainer for that.

Fly never showed any signs.

And I know it sounds bad when I said that I have decided to slap Fly's neck if she tries to bite simply cause im not able to connect with her muzzle. Im not going down this road again with her. I asked my trainer about it today and she said its fine to still slap her on the neck or even shoulder. She will still make the connection. What do you guys think?


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## TimWhit91

If I have a horse trying to eat when my hands are busy with a gate they get my boot to their chin. I don't kick, but they get an uncomfortable bump with the toe of my boot


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## tinyliny

I'd be upset if a horse had tried to bite me. I'd have reacted similarly, and also taken a while to recover my emotional composure. Sounds like a human working with horses on any given day n


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## greentree

Hoofpic, i was e not there to see this fit, so i am e on!y judging from my few glimpses of you on video, and you NEED to get mad occasionally, because you NEED to learn how to dial your ENERGY up and down. It is the only way to become an effective leader. Isn't that what this is about???


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> In other words, yelling, screaming, letting out anger, rage is not acceptable. I do think you can raise your voice, but no screaming or yelling.
> 
> 
> 
> I did a noticably better job than before and Id say this was my best one to date in terms of me handling it. Why? Because I have a different demeanor that I was lacking before. Its all that clinic watching, observing of other trainers, clinicians, including my trainer that has really sunk into my head in terms of how exactly to use your energy and body language to drive a horse. I know what has to be done. And the #1 thing is that you have to believe that you are the leader the entire time doing it.
> 
> And I know you guys dont want to hear about her again, but my outside trainer taught me some stuff that I still find valuable today. I just know right now, Im much better using my body language and I owe a big thanks to my outside trainer for that.
> 
> Fly never showed any signs.
> 
> And I know it sounds bad when I said that I have decided to slap Fly's neck if she tries to bite simply cause im not able to connect with her muzzle. Im not going down this road again with her. I asked my trainer about it today and she said its fine to still slap her on the neck or even shoulder. She will still make the connection. What do you guys think?


I won't bore you with details but a neck/shoulder slap is the best way to stop biting behavior but of course if you're not near the neck/shoulder you do what you have to.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Training as in my ride you mean?
> 
> So its okay if the time calls for me to act like an out of control maniac towards Fly?


You consider that being an "out of control maniac"!?! :rofl: Seriously?! Oh, Lordy. You'd think I was a complete nut job with the way I've reacted to misbehaviors. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Hoofpic

TimWhit91 said:


> If I have a horse trying to eat when my hands are busy with a gate they get my boot to their chin. I don't kick, but they get an uncomfortable bump with the toe of my boot


I would do that but I remember that I need to be consistent and stick with the same correction for a bit here to see what works.

Im hoping this works!!

Im just worried now that she will be scared to put her head down to graze when I hand graze her.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, i was e not there to see this fit, so i am e on!y judging from my few glimpses of you on video, and you NEED to get mad occasionally, because you NEED to learn how to dial your ENERGY up and down. It is the only way to become an effective leader. Isn't that what this is about???


Yes thats what its all about, being about to dial your energy up and down instantaneously. And Ive really improved on this. With Fly, I really really have to make things extra bold for her.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I won't bore you with details but a neck/shoulder slap is the best way to stop biting behavior but of course if you're not near the neck/shoulder you do what you have to.


Im always near her neck/shoulder. I know slapping a horse on the neck/shoulder is not as effective (in terms of the message being sent) as whacking them on their muzzle. But like I said, I simply will not attempt to whack her on the muzzle for this anymore because Fly is far too smart and has her head way back well before she's even done trying to bite.The neck is a MUCH larger target to hit and for instance if she is tied, shes obviously not going anywhere unlike her head.

For any times in the past where Ive tried to hit her shoulder or neck, I have never missed. That sums it all right there. The only thing is that it hurts my hand like hell when I whack a horses neck as hard as I can (with the open palm) so she will not feel any sting like she would with say a short crop.

I know for a fact, that when Fly used to turn her butt to me (when I first got her), when I would slap her on the neck or HQ with my palm of my hand, she would just laugh it off. It didnt even phase her. But it was as soon as I had my full whip with me and I nip her as hard as I could in the butt with it, YIP she got the point alright and immediately! A couple corrections with those and a couple times in the roundpen and she stopped turning her butt to me.

I know you guys wont agree with me, but I feel, for the next while when catching Fly, perhaps it would be best if i start carrying my short crop with me.

The morning after and Im still very upset about what happened yesterday. Is this normal? I know I really need to LET IT GO RIGHT NOW! But I was so upset at Fly yesterday. I so wanted to take her to the roundpen and kick her butt after but I know it wouldnt have been any good because it was well outside that correction window.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You consider that being an "out of control maniac"!?! :rofl: Seriously?! Oh, Lordy. You'd think I was a complete nut job with the way I've reacted to misbehaviors. :icon_rolleyes:


No, I still believe that I can reach another level. But its hard for me to see what this level is because ive never seen anyone do it before. 

If I have to act like a maniac to get the message across to Fly, then I will do it. If others see it, then so be it.

Before I know that I was always concerned about others at the barn seeing me correctly Fly really hard, thinking that I over reacting or that Im being too hard on Fly, etc. I know a few people at the barn, if they were to see what they saw yesterday, they would have thought this. Because these people would NEVER EVER even consider slapping or hitting their horse ever because they see it as being mean and its just not something they believe in. But these individuals also tend to let their horses get away with stuff, a lot of stuff. I USED TO BE THIS WAY.

Slightly OT, but the other day, I saw one of the boarders trying to pick her mares feet up. Her mare wouldnt. So the boarder just kept saying "cmon ___, pick up, please...cmon now, cmon sweetie" I know this sounds bad, but seeing stuff like this is very much still a good and very BENEFICIAL thing for me and my learning because it puts things in perspective for me and its a reminder to me on what I used to do with Fly. Not so much in terms of me calling Fly "sweetie" lol, but because I didnt escalate things when needed. I do now. And what do you know, Fly picks up her feet every single time now the very first time I ask, and she no longer leans. All thanks to you guys!

Well everyone is different.And I now know how to quickly escalate my energy and my body language. Which god knows, its taken how many months now? I know Ive really had to step outside my comfort zone in this regard, but good lord its taken me long enough.

Ive gotten to the point now where I stop worrying whether others see me acting like a maniac on Fly. You gotta do what it takes for your correction to work. 

I know if my trainer or BO saw it, if would be really good cause it would show them that I have really gotten the jist of body language and being able to use your energy to dial it up and down.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Im always near her neck/shoulder. I know slapping a horse on the neck/shoulder is not as effective (in terms of the message being sent) as whacking them on their muzzle.


 You need to avoid whacking the muzzle or anywhere on the head, that will cause all kinds of new issues that form easy and fix hard. A smack on the neck is definitely the appropriate response.


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## Skyseternalangel

Look you're human, you can get annoyed but don't throw a man-temper-tantrum 10 minutes after it has happened. Quick fast BIG corrections happen, then you need to chillout and be neutral again. 

That is the key to good corrections, you don't stay up at that big intense level because then it becomes confusing instead of a clear message. 

Getting angry is how you SHOULD feel (that level of intensity) when correcting dangerous actions of a horse, but the emotion behind it needs to not come into play. The intensity does, the emotion does not.

Pretty sure that is what greentree meant by you need to be angry more often. Not emotionally, but that level of intensity. Don't piddle-fudge around.

When a horse is being a tool while I am working on closing a gate, I bump bump bump BUMP BUMP BUMP TUG TUG TUG SWING WHAP the leadrope (see how it escalated even in writing) so that it's an uncomfortable action. If they are still plowing ahead, that's when I stop what I'm doing, turn around, and DRIVE THAT HORSE AWAY. Just like you did. Then I go back to chill, head over to the gate and test them to see if they try it again. If they try I go back to the bump bump bump BUMP BUMP BUMP TUG TUG TUG.. etc. but if my message was clear it shouldn't escalate near as much this time. Ideally it should take no more than 3 bumps on the lead or in a perfect situation they should just stand there.

You'll get it, you're getting better just need to figure out how to switch that intensity on and off, and when it drag it out a little.


----------



## natisha

6gun Kid said:


> You need to avoid whacking the muzzle or anywhere on the head, that will cause all kinds of new issues that form easy and fix hard. A smack on the neck is definitely the appropriate response.


Thanks. I think Hoofpic didn't quite understand what I was saying.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> The morning after and Im still very upset about what happened yesterday. Is this normal?



No, it's not, you are describing what for most of us is a non event, horses are NOT machines or computers, you can't dial in a program and think you have 'done' it. 

Example:

Saturday, in a show, first entry into the ring, beautiful straight down the middle as is should be, loved it. 30 minutes later entered the same ring, through the same gate, to take exactly the same line and she wanted to run off, and we ended up miles from the centre line, why? :shrug::shrug: Because she is a horse, not a machine, all I could do was sit and laugh, then continue with my test. 2 hours later, 3rd test, we can once again ride down the centre line.......no point in over analysing, NEVER assume that your horse as something down pat, because they will test, forget, get over ridden by fear, get bitten by a fly, anything can make your 'perfect' horse go 'off' 

Brush it off and get on with it.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Golden Horse said:


> No, it's not, you are describing what for most of us is a non event, horses are NOT machines or computers, you can't dial in a program and think you have 'done' it.
> 
> Example:
> 
> Saturday, in a show, first entry into the ring, beautiful straight down the middle as is should be, loved it. 30 minutes later entered the same ring, through the same gate, to take exactly the same line and she wanted to run off, and we ended up miles from the centre line, why? :shrug::shrug: Because she is a horse, not a machine, all I could do was sit and laugh, then continue with my test. 2 hours later, 3rd test, we can once again ride down the centre line.......no point in over analysing, NEVER assume that your horse as something down pat, because they will test, forget, get over ridden by fear, get bitten by a fly, anything can make your 'perfect' horse go 'off'
> 
> Brush it off and get on with it.


Can't like this enough!! :clap:


----------



## tinyliny

when a horse threatens our safety, it makes us react with a huge burst of fear first, then , ANGER. it's just instinctual.
sometimes, that's what it takes for us to become big enough for the horse to give up his thought of being in charge, and to turn and go , "what? what the heck??!!" 
NOW's your chance. now you've got his real attention, now you get him to do something, go somewhere, give his body to your direction. and, by directing him and slowing down your emotional state, you allow him to follow you without an element of fear in either of you. it sounds to me that this is kind of what you did when she bit at you and you moved her feet! 

what might be better next time, is to do what you did, (just fine), then stop, catch your breath, allow her to just soak on what just happened , then move her feet again, but not in anger . . . do it in nuetral clarity. allow her to be a 'good girl' again. don't love on her, just ask her to move right or left or back up, and when she does it nicely, without a lot of drama, then go on about your day. she'll feel better, and so will you.


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## Dehda01

There is a difference between being assertive (which is good) and being a aggressive( which is bad). You always should be assertive around horses, they thrive having a leader. Being a bully is not good.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> You need to avoid whacking the muzzle or anywhere on the head, that will cause all kinds of new issues that form easy and fix hard. A smack on the neck is definitely the appropriate response.


You are right. But I was always told that a sharp smack on the muzzle wont cause any issues. Cause remember many many months ago (like 8 months ago) where i was telling you guys how Fly would use her muzzle to try to rub on me or push me away? And I started giving her smacks on the muzzle and she stopped.

I know the muzzle is really the ONLY safe spot to smack a horse on the head. Anywhere else around the cheeks, eye, top of head, ears, is out.

The head is just such a hard target. One, its small, and two they move their head so quickly, so easily. Whereas their neck is a lot bigger in surface area and goes all the way down to their shoulder.

There are times where I am able to connect with my smack on Flys muzzle. The good thing is that I dont have to do this very often. It was usually from her smelling my hand from food that I had in it and I would give a backhand to her muzzle. 

Like on Saturday I was in the herd eating my lunch. I like to do this every now and then, I just sit on the tire and eat. The other boarder who has her mare in the same field thinks Im crazy because she told me Saturday that the horses will mug me, and that they can be rude. Well, to me, I instantly thought...thats just an excuse. Just because the horses can be rude doesnt mean it will stop me from eating my lunch in there. I do not want to make excuses. 

Ive done this before so eating lunch on the tire wasnt new to me. The BO has seen me to do it, I cant say that anyone else at the barn does it but he seemed okay with it. So of course all the horses were curious to see what I had when I pulled out my salad. They all came up wanting to sniff. They got a bit close so I smacked each and every one of their muzzles. They didnt get the message so they kept trying. I immediately jumped up from my sitting position and made myself big and started waving my warms and told them loudly to get out of here and immediately all of them took off. They now kept their distance and when they did come up, they thought twice about reaching out to sniff my food.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Look you're human, you can get annoyed but don't throw a man-temper-tantrum 10 minutes after it has happened. Quick fast BIG corrections happen, then you need to chillout and be neutral again.
> 
> That is the key to good corrections, you don't stay up at that big intense level because then it becomes confusing instead of a clear message.
> 
> Getting angry is how you SHOULD feel (that level of intensity) when correcting dangerous actions of a horse, but the emotion behind it needs to not come into play. The intensity does, the emotion does not.
> 
> Pretty sure that is what greentree meant by you need to be angry more often. Not emotionally, but that level of intensity. Don't piddle-fudge around.
> 
> When a horse is being a tool while I am working on closing a gate, I bump bump bump BUMP BUMP BUMP TUG TUG TUG SWING WHAP the leadrope (see how it escalated even in writing) so that it's an uncomfortable action. If they are still plowing ahead, that's when I stop what I'm doing, turn around, and DRIVE THAT HORSE AWAY. Just like you did. Then I go back to chill, head over to the gate and test them to see if they try it again. If they try I go back to the bump bump bump BUMP BUMP BUMP TUG TUG TUG.. etc. but if my message was clear it shouldn't escalate near as much this time. Ideally it should take no more than 3 bumps on the lead or in a perfect situation they should just stand there.
> 
> You'll get it, you're getting better just need to figure out how to switch that intensity on and off, and when it drag it out a little.


I think the hardest thing for me is that my mindset is a little different than other boarders at the barn. 

I get a long very well with every single other boarder at the barn and over the past couple months Ive noticed that Ive gotten to know quite a few of them a lot better, socialized with them more, etc. Ive started to form those one on one friendships, which is great. And this includes with my trainer and BO as well. I have gotten to know my BO quite well and have noticed that he respects me more today than he did when I first arrived at the barn last Sept.

So other boarders obviously like to give me advice when they can etc, which is great, but I need to be careful. Because aside from my trainer, and a couple other boarder friends, the other few are quite different in terms of how they see horses, my mare, horsemanship, how they handle their horse, etc. And when I mean quite different, I mean opposite. Because I observe how two other boarders and my trainer handle their horses and its a night and day difference from the other few boarder friends.

They dont want to do this, because their horse will spook. They wont do this because its too windy out and their horse doesnt like the wind. I use to think this way but Ive been getting myself out of it and over the past bunch of months here Ive been cutting back on making excuses for Fly and I. Because I know that making excuses will get you nowhere. And there is no better person at the barn to talk about that with than my trainer because she cant stands when horse owners make excuses for their horse(s). Last week when she gave that lecture to my other friend boarder in our group lesson about how she needs to stop making excuses for her mare, that was a good reminder for me as well. It really sunk into my head and I feel will be a very valuable incident/confrontation that will stick in my head permanently.

Like one of my boarder friends who I was talking to yesterday, said to me that she cant ride one of her mares in the evening because shes not an evening horse. She is a brat when you try to ride her in the evening and that she has to ride her in the daytime because shes much better behaved. But I told her that it doesnt matter on the time of day, her mare needs to work at any time of the day when you ask her to. Its not her choice. Then she brought up the age factor again, about how she is only 6 and shes still young so she has to cut her some slack. Not how I see it anymore, but its her mare and thats fine. But for me, its just making excuses again. And this is a habit that Ive really improved on in terms of cutting back on.


----------



## Prairie

Hoopic, better than raising you voice or yelling to correct a horse is a growled "Quit". "Quit" is better than "no" because "no" sounds too much like whoa. I can stop all 4 our horses in their tracks with a growled "Quit" if they are misbehaving while I'm among them. 


Personally, if I feel the need to slap a horse as a correction, I usually hit the shoulder since it's a bigger target -- also you don't have to swing hard, since cupping your hand so it makes a loud "pop" sound works well (and doesn't sting your hand!). Whenever you correct, you have to remember the 3 second rule and get that correction in quickly or the horse won't know why you corrected him. Also as soon as you correct, forget about the horse's transgression and go back to what you were doing.


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## tinyliny

if a horse tries to bite me, his head is the closest thing to me, so that's what I'd smack. I don't have time to think or aim. I think I smack at whatever is closest, and now that I think of it, sometimes the sholder is closer. it's more important that one reacts quickly.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoopic, better than raising you voice or yelling to correct a horse is a growled "Quit". "Quit" is better than "no" because "no" sounds too much like whoa. I can stop all 4 our horses in their tracks with a growled "Quit" if they are misbehaving while I'm among them.
> 
> Personally, if I feel the need to slap a horse as a correction, I usually hit the shoulder since it's a bigger target -- also you don't have to swing hard, since cupping your hand so it makes a loud "pop" sound works well (and doesn't sting your hand!). Whenever you correct, you have to remember the 3 second rule and get that correction in quickly or the horse won't know why you corrected him. Also as soon as you correct, forget about the horse's transgression and go back to what you were doing.


Thanks. I will do that actually, say QUIT instead of NO and to put some grunt behind it and growl behind it if needed. I just tried it and I will admit the growl behind the word, it works a lot better with QUIT than NO. 

I have used QUIT quite often with Fly before so the word is not completely new to her, its just that I used NO more.

I have never tried putting some grunt or growl behind my voice when saying the word but Im curious to see how much more powerful it makes your correction. I think it will work quite well on Fly. 

I have gotten quite good at hitting the reset button when correcting Fly, but its just yesterday I couldnt do it when she tried to bite. I bet the next time she does it, I will have a much easier time. 

Yesterday was good because I just carried on afterwards as if nothing happened. Before I had a bad habit of always talking to Fly after but no more of that. I cut it out. I mean business.

I always try to correct instantly, Im still a believer that 3 seconds if far too long to correct any horse, I would do it maybe 2 secs max but not 3. Even 2 is pushing it IMO. 

My trainer has 3 horses and a mini donkey. One is a field horse, the other is a lesson horse so she mostly rides and works with one. He is a 6 year old gelding who is incredibly smart, but is a brat. He is very dominant (just like Fly) and constantly tests anyone handling him. My trainer told me that only really assertive handlers can handle him because he is so persistant when testing and when he is bad, one smack wont do, not even two or three. Sometimes four or five is needed. Then the roundpen.

So when my trainer brings him into the barn and rides him, I have made it a habit of trying to watch my trainer work with him as much as I can. Because when you need to amp things up, I have to admit my trainer is a very good person to watch and learn things from.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> He is very dominant (just like Fly) and constantly tests anyone handling him. My trainer told me that only really assertive handlers can handle him because he is so persistant when testing and when he is bad, one smack wont do, not even two or three. Sometimes four or five is needed. Then the roundpen.



Fly is NOT that dominant, or spooky, or reactive, she is a sweet smart mare who has a novice owner..

I really don't get "then the round pen" thought, WTF is all that about, you have already correctly stated that any reaction has to be immediate, not even 2 seconds later. A horse has ZERO idea why he is going to the round pen....deal with it in the moment with whatever is going on....Going in the round pen allows the owner/handler workout their own frustration, does ZERO for the horse


----------



## Prairie

Horses are only capable of thinking in the moment so slapping the horse 4 or 5 times and then working him hard in the round pen is pointless---the horse has no connection between the wrong move on his part and why he's been chased around a round pen----he's forgotten what he did! That's why the 3 second rule is pretty standard----that's felt to be how long a horse will remember what he did and connect it to the correction.


If that trainer is truly a leader whom the horse respects, it doesn't matter how dominant the horse is, he will respect the person. I ride an extremely dominant mare, one who attacked a 2200 lb, 18.2 hand Belgian gelding trying to establish that she was going to be alpha here when we first turned them together after running them across the fence from each other for a month. (That Belgian is the most dominant horse I've ever handled but he respected hubby and me and was a dream for us to handle and drive.) I have no problems handling this mare with my voice and body language, even when I'm riding with 3 of my friends who also ride dominant mares. The mares may be making snarky faces at each other, but they respect their riders enough to not try anything more. If you're a strong leader who has earned the horse's respect, the misbehavior seems to disappear and you are on the way to establishing a partnership where the human is the senior partner.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> No, it's not, you are describing what for most of us is a non event, horses are NOT machines or computers, you can't dial in a program and think you have 'done' it.
> 
> Example:
> 
> Saturday, in a show, first entry into the ring, beautiful straight down the middle as is should be, loved it. 30 minutes later entered the same ring, through the same gate, to take exactly the same line and she wanted to run off, and we ended up miles from the centre line, why? :shrug::shrug: Because she is a horse, not a machine, all I could do was sit and laugh, then continue with my test. 2 hours later, 3rd test, we can once again ride down the centre line.......no point in over analysing, NEVER assume that your horse as something down pat, because they will test, forget, get over ridden by fear, get bitten by a fly, anything can make your 'perfect' horse go 'off'
> 
> Brush it off and get on with it.


Thanks for the example. You said it best, brush it off and get on with it. And this needs to be done in the moment.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> when a horse threatens our safety, it makes us react with a huge burst of fear first, then , ANGER. it's just instinctual.
> sometimes, that's what it takes for us to become big enough for the horse to give up his thought of being in charge, and to turn and go , "what? what the heck??!!"
> NOW's your chance. now you've got his real attention, now you get him to do something, go somewhere, give his body to your direction. and, by directing him and slowing down your emotional state, you allow him to follow you without an element of fear in either of you. it sounds to me that this is kind of what you did when she bit at you and you moved her feet!


Yes that is what I did and I felt I did it out of assertiveness and not aggression. Im always careful not to cross the line.



> what might be better next time, is to do what you did, (just fine), then stop, catch your breath, allow her to just soak on what just happened , then move her feet again, but not in anger . . . do it in nuetral clarity. allow her to be a 'good girl' again. don't love on her, just ask her to move right or left or back up, and when she does it nicely, without a lot of drama, then go on about your day. she'll feel better, and so will you.


Okay. So if I re-do the correction again but in neutral clarity applying minimal pressure, then the initial correction will still be as clear as I sent it? This is a good suggestion thanks. But Im confident, that the time next this happens, that I can get my emotions down right away and carry on.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> There is a difference between being assertive (which is good) and being a aggressive( which is bad). You always should be assertive around horses, they thrive having a leader. Being a bully is not good.


Yes i agree there is a difference but Im confident that I was not aggresive with Fly. I was being assertive. Seeing how patient I am and how generally passive I am as a person, I dont think I could ever get aggresive with any horse.


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## Hoofpic

Has anyone read this book? Ive just started listening to e-books in my car. I figured for the insane amount of time that I spend in my car every week, I want to kill two birds with one stone and do some reading. 

I use Amazon Audible. Its a monthly subscription. I just found kindle had zero for horse books.










So far so good.


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## Hoofpic

After 7 years, Ive finally replaved my beat up wallet.

Brutal shape I know. Been using it like this for the past 2 years even with it falling apart and numerous times with my cards falling out haha


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I think the hardest thing for me is that my mindset is a little different than other boarders at the barn.
> 
> I get a long very well with every single other boarder at the barn and over the past couple months Ive noticed that Ive gotten to know quite a few of them a lot better, socialized with them more, etc. Ive started to form those one on one friendships, which is great. And this includes with my trainer and BO as well. I have gotten to know my BO quite well and have noticed that he respects me more today than he did when I first arrived at the barn last Sept.
> 
> So other boarders obviously like to give me advice when they can etc, which is great, but I need to be careful. Because aside from my trainer, and a couple other boarder friends, the other few are quite different in terms of how they see horses, my mare, horsemanship, how they handle their horse, etc. And when I mean quite different, I mean opposite. Because I observe how two other boarders and my trainer handle their horses and its a night and day difference from the other few boarder friends.
> 
> They dont want to do this, because their horse will spook. They wont do this because its too windy out and their horse doesnt like the wind. I use to think this way but Ive been getting myself out of it and over the past bunch of months here Ive been cutting back on making excuses for Fly and I. Because I know that making excuses will get you nowhere. And there is no better person at the barn to talk about that with than my trainer because she cant stands when horse owners make excuses for their horse(s). Last week when she gave that lecture to my other friend boarder in our group lesson about how she needs to stop making excuses for her mare, that was a good reminder for me as well. It really sunk into my head and I feel will be a very valuable incident/confrontation that will stick in my head permanently.
> 
> Like one of my boarder friends who I was talking to yesterday, said to me that she cant ride one of her mares in the evening because shes not an evening horse. She is a brat when you try to ride her in the evening and that she has to ride her in the daytime because shes much better behaved. But I told her that it doesnt matter on the time of day, her mare needs to work at any time of the day when you ask her to. Its not her choice. Then she brought up the age factor again, about how she is only 6 and shes still young so she has to cut her some slack. Not how I see it anymore, but its her mare and thats fine. But for me, its just making excuses again. And this is a habit that Ive really improved on in terms of cutting back on.


Seriously, stop worrying about what other boarders do. You are in literally no position to tell another person what to do. I would have thought about knocking you on your butt if you told me what to do with MY horse, without being asked. You literally said in the same post you have to be careful taking advice from the other boarders. You think they're gonna take kindly to having a rank beginner tell them they can't make an excuse for their own horse? Sorry but no buddy, not happening.

Quit it with the special snowflake syndrome and gossiping about other boarders with your trainer. If you don't think it'll get back to them, you're wrong.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Seriously, stop worrying about what other boarders do. You are in literally no position to tell another person what to do. I would have thought about knocking you on your butt if you told me what to do with MY horse, without being asked. You literally said in the same post you have to be careful taking advice from the other boarders. You think they're gonna take kindly to having a rank beginner tell them they can't make an excuse for their own horse? Sorry but no buddy, not happening.
> 
> Quit it with the special snowflake syndrome and gossiping about other boarders with your trainer. If you don't think it'll get back to them, you're wrong.


Im not worried about what other boarders do, but just saying. Because I like to observe.

I wasnt trying to tell anyone what to do with their horse.

Im not gossiping, Im just trying to tell what I observe thats all. I learn a lot from me observing. Im not meaning any harm.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Im not worried about what other boarders do, but just saying. Because I like to observe.
> 
> I wasnt trying to tell anyone what to do with their horse.
> 
> Im not gossiping, Im just trying to tell what I observe thats all. I learn a lot from me observing. Im not meaning any harm.


It's still a form of gossip about others, when frankly you STILL don't understand what is right and wrong, and how an action might be wrong in one situation, but right in another.


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## EliRose

Talking about others behind their backs is still gossip, even if you don't mean any harm.

And you said you told the other boarder that it doesn't matter what time of day it is, horse still has to work. That's telling someone what to do with their horse. It's like when you chastised the mother of the baby at a clinic, that's super not okay in anyway shape or form.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, there's a saying in the horse world......"if you ask 2 equestrians how to lead a horse, you'll get 3 different answers". In many cases, there is no right or wrong way of doing things and often it depends on the individual horse. 


A simple example---when I work with our gelding who is hard to focus, the lesson has to be upbeat with lots of mixing up the cues, changes of directions, many gait transitions, and don't dare repeat anything in the same sequence. By contrast our mare needs a slower approach where lessons are broken down in tiny steps, a calm approach is needed while giving her the time needed to figure out what you are asking. If I tried switching those 2 different approaches, the gelding would be off in la-la land while the mare would have a major meltdown. 


Correction those 2 horse also needs a different approach----the gelding often doesn't get the message until I get physical. On the other hand, a softly growled "quit" has the mare remembering her manners---if I struck her, she'd lose all the confidence and respect she has in me simply because her life before she landed here was abusive---I sure don't want to have her recall just how bad mankind can be.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Talking about others behind their backs is still gossip, even if you don't mean any harm.
> 
> And you said you told the other boarder that it doesn't matter what time of day it is, horse still has to work. That's telling someone what to do with their horse. It's like when you chastised the mother of the baby at a clinic, that's super not okay in anyway shape or form.


Well I see it differently, but okay I wont mention anything anymore about my other boarder friends.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, there's a saying in the horse world......"if you ask 2 equestrians how to lead a horse, you'll get 3 different answers". In many cases, there is no right or wrong way of doing things and often it depends on the individual horse.
> 
> 
> A simple example---when I work with our gelding who is hard to focus, the lesson has to be upbeat with lots of mixing up the cues, changes of directions, many gait transitions, and don't dare repeat anything in the same sequence. By contrast our mare needs a slower approach where lessons are broken down in tiny steps, a calm approach is needed while giving her the time needed to figure out what you are asking. If I tried switching those 2 different approaches, the gelding would be off in la-la land while the mare would have a major meltdown.
> 
> 
> Correction those 2 horse also needs a different approach----the gelding often doesn't get the message until I get physical. On the other hand, a softly growled "quit" has the mare remembering her manners---if I struck her, she'd lose all the confidence and respect she has in me simply because her life before she landed here was abusive---I sure don't want to have her recall just how bad mankind can be.


Yes that is true. And thats why the Parelli method doesnt work. Every horse learns differently and same with the handler. 

Golden, I know you will disagree but 2 of my past trainers have labelled my mare was a dominant mare. She is right brained.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Yes that is true. *And thats why the Parelli method doesnt work*. Every horse learns differently and same with the handler.
> 
> *Golden, I know you will disagree but 2 of my past trainers have labelled my mare was a dominant mare. She is right brained*.


You really don't get it do you?


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## Hoofpic

I have some good news. I finally got around got finding some new hoodies that I liked today. So now I have more jeans and more hoodies. Fresh clean clothes a lot more often.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> You really don't get it do you?


But one of the trainers who said it wasnt at all a Parelli trainer.


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## Rainaisabelle

There's this girl in the equine community in my area and she THINKS she knows what's she's doing, she THINKS she can tell people what to do with their horses, she THINKS she can tell people how and what to feed.


That person is the laughingstock of our equine community. Take a lesson. 

You may THINK you know but you don't know.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Well I see it differently, but okay I wont mention anything anymore about my other boarder friends.


It's not seeing things differently, that's the definition.


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic, I would truly not appreciate someone coming up and telling me how to do things, especially without knowing my horse. You could say a couple years back I was making excuses on why I didn't want tractors driving past us as I rode. But, if you hadn't really known me or my horse, you wouldn't have known that a lawnmower that sounded like a tractor had caused my serious accident. You would think I was just being a sissy when in fact I was trying to regain confidence in my horse and hers in me before we started working around tractors again.

For all you know, something could have truly happened with the boarder and riding her horse at night. Something that shook her confidence straight to the core. And until you've felt that all consuming fear, the "what if's???", and the struggle to not vomit when your horse so much as shifts sideways in a spook, you really have no right to judge how and when a person rides their horse. It's something that has to be done on their timeline, not yours. It was only just this year I felt confident letting Izzie have a long rein as they were planting beans in the field next to where I ride, THREE YEARS after my accident.

And Fly is SO NOT a dominant mare. She is just a mare. Mares are opinionated. But frankly, you have a very, very kind mare. She tolerates a lot of things that other mares would have left you FAR behind for.


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## EliRose

If I could like that 100 times I would.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, until you've handled a 100 or more horses of different breeds in different circumstances with different training levels, you don't have the experience and knowledge to label Fly as anything but a pinto mare. Frankly, she's an extremely kind and calm mare with no indications of being dominant or testing you as you claim---she's reacting to your handling errors, certainly not being a PIA! 


Until you've walked a mile in the shoes of another horse owner, you aren't in a position to comment or judge how another is handling a horse. My hubby has a very different approach to handling horses than I do, but that doesn't make what either of us are doing wrong. The approach has to suit both the horse and the handler/rider at that point in time and it really makes no difference what you would do---not your horse, not your concern! Far better would be is to take note of what and how others are handling their horses and file that in the back of your mind---you never know when a particular technique may work for a horse you'll be handling in the future.


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## greentree

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, until you've handled a 100 or more horses of different breeds in different circumstances with different training levels, you don't have the experience and knowledge to label Fly as anything but a pinto mare. Frankly, she's an extremely kind and calm mare with no indications of being dominant or testing you as you claim---she's reacting to your handling errors, certainly not being a PIA!
> 
> 
> Until you've walked a mile in the shoes of another horse owner, you aren't in a position to comment or judge how another is handling a horse. My hubby has a very different approach to handling horses than I do, but that doesn't make what either of us are doing wrong. The approach has to suit both the horse and the handler/rider at that point in time and it really makes no difference what you would do---not your horse, not your concern! Far better would be is to take note of what and how others are handling their horses and file that in the back of your mind---you never know when a particular technique may work for a horse you'll be handling in the future.


And the real thing is(and i would SWEAR that I have said this before!....) It makes NO appreciable difference whether the horse is dominant or not. The horse KNOWS who the leader is immediately. Not in 3 weeks or 2 years. If they challenge the leader, they are swiftly and strongly put back in their place. Any challenging that Fly does is probably because you are still a few rungs away from the top of the ladder.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Hoofpic, I would truly not appreciate someone coming up and telling me how to do things, especially without knowing my horse. You could say a couple years back I was making excuses on why I didn't want tractors driving past us as I rode. But, if you hadn't really known me or my horse, you wouldn't have known that a lawnmower that sounded like a tractor had caused my serious accident. You would think I was just being a sissy when in fact I was trying to regain confidence in my horse and hers in me before we started working around tractors again.
> 
> For all you know, something could have truly happened with the boarder and riding her horse at night. Something that shook her confidence straight to the core. And until you've felt that all consuming fear, the "what if's???", and the struggle to not vomit when your horse so much as shifts sideways in a spook, you really have no right to judge how and when a person rides their horse. It's something that has to be done on their timeline, not yours. It was only just this year I felt confident letting Izzie have a long rein as they were planting beans in the field next to where I ride, THREE YEARS after my accident.
> 
> And Fly is SO NOT a dominant mare. She is just a mare. Mares are opinionated. But frankly, you have a very, very kind mare. She tolerates a lot of things that other mares would have left you FAR behind for.


I was not telling my friend boarder what to do with her horse. Just telling her what I thought thats all. We talk a lot so we often share each others thoughts. 

Yes I do have a very kind mare. But she also has a cheeky side to her, which I think my trainer can agree with as well. In other words, she is opinionated. 

Previous owner told me when I first saw Fly, that she constantly needs reminders on who is in charge and will always test. Now whether this is true or its just perhaps she didn't see the previous owner as a leader so she always tested her. Time will tell.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I was not telling my friend boarder what to do with her horse. Just telling her what I thought thats all."
> 
> 
> *That's mutually exclusive----you're telling her what you think she should do with her horse.*
> 
> Yes I do have a very kind mare. But she also has a cheeky side to her, which I think my trainer can agree with as well. In other words, she is opinionated.
> 
> 
> *Any animal is opinionate, so what is your point? If you want something that's not opinionate, get a machine*
> 
> Previous owner told me when I first saw Fly, that she constantly needs reminders on who is in charge and will always test. Now whether this is true or its just perhaps she didn't see the previous owner as a leader so she always tested her. Time will tell.


 
*Time has already told us all we need to know---you are not a leader at this point so she's testing the boundary. The reality is that all horses are always testing that boundary both in their herd trying to move up in the hierarchy and with their owner/handler/rider. I suspect she's been testing you ever since you bought her and has just escalated the testing so you now notice it -- you don't have the ability to read a horse at this point so would have missed the signs.*


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I do have a very kind mare. But she also has a cheeky side to her, which I think my trainer can agree with as well. In other words, she is opinionated.


Let's not lose sight in the fact that at the end of the day, horses are still individuals. 

My mare is about as opinionated as they come. But she complies with everything I ask her. If she doesn't, then I know I need to listen to her and look at myself. 

What's Fly's rank among her herd mates?


----------



## Prairie

jenkat86 said:


> Let's not lose sight in the fact that at the end of the day, horses are still individuals.
> 
> My mare is about as opinionated as they come. But she complies with everything I ask her. If she doesn't, then I know I need to listen to her and look at myself.
> 
> What's Fly's rank among her herd mates?



LOL, there is a reason why you can tell a gelding, ask a stallion, and discuss it with a mare! Our TWH mare's a red head and excels at those discussions! She's also saved my butt too many times for me to ever dismiss her discussions as nonsense. By contrast, my 3/4 Arabian gelding was a hot head, but I could "tell" him and he'd comply.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I was not telling my friend boarder what to do with her horse. Just telling her what I thought thats all.


You were telling her that "her mare needs to work (i.e. she should ride her) any time of the day when you ask her". Your words. You were telling her what to do with her mare.


The fact that you seem to criticize others to make yourself feel better (the prom picture, other boarders, etc) and that you dismiss the people here who are trying to help you see how you make it so difficult for yourself is what is causing you to make very little progress despite what you think.


And for the record, about your trainer who discussed her other student with you. I know some of it was overheard, but some was told to you directly.She is probably saying the same thing to the other student about you. No professional would be critical of one student to another student.


----------



## jenkat86

Whinnie said:


> And for the record, about your trainer who discussed her other student with you. I know some of it was overheard, but some was told to you directly.She is probably saying the same thing to the other student about you. No professional would be critical of one student to another student.


ABSOLUTELY!!!! 

My trainer is my friend. We talk about everything under the sun. But he does NOT talk to me about any of the other boarders at his barn, not even if I ask.


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## Prairie

There are no instructors here, but even though the 2 trainers (only work with "difficult" horses) are good friends and we often consult or watch each other working a horse, there is no discussion of who the owner is or why the horse has so many issues. Even on trail rides with newbies that we have to accommodate, there is no discussion of what they are doing wrong unless they ask for an opinion or help. If one has a problem, we'll just quietly surround the horse and rider and "herd" them along until we reach an easier riding area. Since several of us ride dominant mares, the horse the newbie is riding submits quickly when confronted with the "snarky mare look".


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I was not telling my friend boarder what to do with her horse. Just telling her what I thought thats all. We talk a lot so we often share each others thoughts.
> 
> Yes I do have a very kind mare. But she also has a cheeky side to her, which I think my trainer can agree with as well. In other words, she is opinionated.
> 
> Previous owner told me when I first saw Fly, that she constantly needs reminders on who is in charge and will always test. Now whether this is true or its just perhaps she didn't see the previous owner as a leader so she always tested her. Time will tell.


But really, you were. You told her she should ride her mare any time of day. Did she come right up to you and personally ask you what YOU thought of it? I kind of doubt it. I have multiple friends in all areas of the horse world. I don't tell one of my friends how to ride her reining mare any more than she would tell me how to ride my dressage mare. I certainly wouldn't critique my friend who jumps her mare, or my friend who rides a saddleseat mare. Just because you are friends does not give you the right to tell them what you think unless they personally ask. My saddleseat friend I WILL listen to her suggestions since she HAS worked with Dressage horses before, and sometimes has very good recommendations.

The point is, you basically just reworded what you claimed you weren't doing. You telling her what you thought is basically telling her what you should do.

As for Fly, she is a MARE. She is not a dominant horse. She is a MARE. You would know if she was dominant, I promise you that. I wouldn't call Izzie a dominant mare, but she would definitely appear to be in comparison to Fly. She is a WITCH most days. She's stubborn, she's opinionated, and unless you ask her to do something correctly, she won't do it. What Fly has is a novice owner who, until recently, just wanted to do Liberty. Which, in a lot of other circles, is basically like saying you let the horse do as they please so as to never punish them. If she were dominant, she would be much more forceful when you change the rules on her, which you do a lot.

With regards to the trainer talking to you about other riders, I'd definitely figure she's telling her other riders about you. I have NEVER ridden with a trainer that talked about another student. EVER. My current trainer barely lets her own husband watch lessons since she will not allow anyone to sit in on lessons without consent from the rider. Recording lessons is fine, if I want to. But she will not discuss my lessons with others, she will not invite others to watch me ride, and she keeps everything very private with this matter. Which, in my opinion, is how it SHOULD be.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Let's not lose sight in the fact that at the end of the day, horses are still individuals.
> 
> My mare is about as opinionated as they come. But she complies with everything I ask her. If she doesn't, then I know I need to listen to her and look at myself.
> 
> What's Fly's rank among her herd mates?


She is second from the bottom. Her herd goes

Buckskin (10 years old)
Chestnut (10)
Fly (5)
Dark Bay Tennessee Walker (10)

And its always been this way. Its funny watching Fly boss around the dark bay, she likes to have it with her at times haha.


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> You were telling her that "her mare needs to work (i.e. she should ride her) any time of the day when you ask her". Your words. You were telling her what to do with her mare.
> 
> 
> The fact that you seem to criticize others to make yourself feel better (the prom picture, other boarders, etc) and that you dismiss the people here who are trying to help you see how you make it so difficult for yourself is what is causing you to make very little progress despite what you think.


I was just trying to help out a friend boarder. But I didnt realize it at the time that I wasnt helping out. I do realize it now though for next time. Lesson learned. We all make mistakes. I dont mean any harm.



> And for the record, about your trainer who discussed her other student with you. I know some of it was overheard, but some was told to you directly.She is probably saying the same thing to the other student about you. No professional would be critical of one student to another student.


My trainer didnt discuss the other rider with me, nor was it directed to me. We were all in a group lesson together so it was impossible not to over hear. She was lecturing to the other boarder rider while I was continuing on trotting around the arena. I dont see anything wrong that my trainer did. Sometimes you need to confront others. She was just letting loose as she was getting frustrated with the other rider because she wasn't listening to her and she cant teach her when she is not willing to do what she asks. I know my trainer is very blunt, shes not going to ask me to leave the barn so she can talk to the other rider. She just did it with me there, which is fine by me.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> As for Fly, she is a MARE. She is not a dominant horse. She is a MARE. You would know if she was dominant, I promise you that. I wouldn't call Izzie a dominant mare, but she would definitely appear to be in comparison to Fly. She is a WITCH most days. She's stubborn, she's opinionated, and unless you ask her to do something correctly, she won't do it. What Fly has is a novice owner who, until recently, just wanted to do Liberty. Which, in a lot of other circles, is basically like saying you let the horse do as they please so as to never punish them. If she were dominant, she would be much more forceful when you change the rules on her, which you do a lot.


True. So basically my past trainers who labelled Fly as a dominant mare are wrong on that one.



> With regards to the trainer talking to you about other riders, I'd definitely figure she's telling her other riders about you. I have NEVER ridden with a trainer that talked about another student. EVER. My current trainer barely lets her own husband watch lessons since she will not allow anyone to sit in on lessons without consent from the rider. Recording lessons is fine, if I want to. But she will not discuss my lessons with others, she will not invite others to watch me ride, and she keeps everything very private with this matter. Which, in my opinion, is how it SHOULD be.


I know 100% for a fact my trainer doesnt talk about other riders with others. Only the BO. But that is because her and the BO sit down once a week or so to update him on how the riders are coming along, what path theyre taking etc. Afterall, it is a business right? He needs to know this stuff.


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## Hoofpic

Can we drop this topic and move on.

Went to the barn today and talked with my BO about Flys hooves. Now, because we talked for awhile and Im not too knowledgeable about hooves. I will try my best in saying what my BO said to me but some of it may be a bit off. Im trying though. Im just going by memory here.

He did get pretty technical with me in explaining things but some of it didnt quite sink in because I lack the knowledge. But he is teaching me.

He took a look at them and the first thing he asked me, was if my farrier was taking flares off (cause I told him how Fly has these gaps on her outer wall that doesn't touch the ground). I said I couldnt tell. 

He said that IF my farrier was taking flares off in those spots, it could be a spot where (when Fly walks), she is putting more pressure on and perhaps its a point where its a bit thinner or was a bit long and was cracking. After all when you ride them, that will be where a lot of the pressure will be as they step.

I did mention the under run and he said it is there but its not too bad.

He got me to lead Fly towards him so he could see how her feet pick up and land onto the ground. He immediately noticed that her front right leg actually isnt perfectly vertical compared to her front left (which is true, vet mentioned this as well last year, as Fly was just born like this). Her front right leg actually goes out a teeny bit.

He said if I wanted to switch to his farrier, Im more than welcome. She is coming out on the 20th of this month and basically whichever horses need to be worked on, you just put their name on the board in the viewing area. So I put Fly up on there. I told him, that lets get a 2nd opinion from his farrier when she comes out and I dont think it would hurt. Then I will decide if i will switch over to her.


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## tinyliny

I am frankly appalled at the outpouring of critical, harsh, judgemental, and almost bullying comments dished out by folks who say they are 'helping' the OP, then get all flouncy and angry that he isn't listening to all their wonderful advice. honestly. this is a journal. if you think the OP isn't up to hearing your 'help', then leave and find someone else to 'help'.


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## Rainaisabelle

It's good you can switch to his farrier it might make a difference, maybe take some photos of that trim as well and post here .


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> It's good you can switch to his farrier it might make a difference, maybe take some photos of that trim as well and post here .


Well Im still going to take some good photos of my mares soles and post them up here. I will do it in the next couple days.

I just know that the BO's farrier is very good. After all, she trims 29 of the 30 horses on the property (every single horse but Fly), but I will get her to at least look at Fly the next time she comes out and see what she says about her feet. Since that will only be a week and a half in since her last trim last weekend, I wont get her to do anything significant but if she wants to do some small touches, im fine with that.

Its funny that I have yet to meet her in person. I've been at the barn before when she has been there trimming, but never met her. Obviously all the boarders and the BO is extremely happy with her and the BO is very very specific about his choice of farrier. Like I said, he knows how to trim, he just can't do it because he doesn't have the mobility.

He picked up two of Fly's feet today and I was very happy to see it that Fly picked up her feet so willingly for him and held it up for him. Looks like I've fixed Fly's picking up the feet problem for good  All thanks to you guys.


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## Hoofpic

So Im REALLY considering going to this next week, at least for 2 days. It's about a 2.5 hour drive from home. It will be a little out of my comfort zone because its dressage, showmanship, a lot of english, reining, but I think it would be beneficial for me. Im just trying to find out about ticket prices.










The underlined really interests me. 
The bold intrigues me.

*Friday *
*All Dressage Classes[*

*Saturday*
English Pleasures Classes 16,17,18,19,21 
English Equitation Classes 24,25,26,27
Road Hack and Show HackClasses 29,30,31,32
Hunter Hack Classes 34,35,36
Reining Classes 43,44,45

*Sunday*
Trail Classes, 46,47,48,48
Showmanship Classes 53,54,55,56
Driving Class 57
Western Pleasure Classes, 64,68,69,70,71,73
Western Horsemanship Classes 68,69,70,71
Key Hole Classes 79,80,81,82
*Poles Classes 87,88,89,90
Barrels Classes 91,92,93,94*


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> I am frankly appalled at the outpouring of critical, harsh, judgemental, and almost bullying comments dished out by folks who say they are 'helping' the OP, then get all flouncy and angry that he isn't listening to all their wonderful advice. honestly. this is a journal. if you think the OP isn't up to hearing your 'help', then leave and find someone else to 'help'.


This can't be any more true.

Go Buck.


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## natisha

Hoofpic, that show may be free to spectators.


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## greentree

I would only go for one day if it is that far. Unless you take someone who can explain the judging, it is going to be like watching paint dry....until they get to poles and barrels!


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## jenkat86

I would see if someone from the barn could go with you to the show, someone that knows something about showmanship. Maybe ask your trainer? That way they can explain to you what you are actually watching...because otherwise it will be like greentree said, watching paint dry.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Today was a good experience for me. Rode outside in the outdoor arena again and for the first time with another rider. This rider just happens to be the owner of the other mare in Flys herd.
> 
> Now im not saying this because Im being nosey and butting into other peoples business. Im saying this because I was able to pull good advice from my trainer, even though it wasnt directed towards me.
> 
> Today there was some heated arguements between my trainer and the other rider. Obviously they dont get along the best and my trainer finds it hard to coach her. Not assuming, she even said it.
> 
> Well today my trainer jist kinda went a bit viral and said that she is trying to coach her but she is not following anything she says. I thought for a minute that things were going to get chaotic. Im so glad they did not. BO was observing as well. He knows that there is a bit of a fued between my trainer and the riderm And the rider was getting frustrated. I just kept mosying on with what i was told to do.
> 
> I wont go much into detail but she basically said she was tired of all the excuses coming from her. She couldnt get her horse going when asked, so she would say, that her mare is tired. She was given a crop to use and was told to use it but wouldnt. Basically the trainer said she needs to be much harder on her mare and to stop treating her like a baby.
> 
> Now, since i was in the same lesson, i couldnt help but hear all of the heated discussion. I just have to make sure that I mind my own business. But i couldnt help but take in some of the things that ny trainer said because it sunk into my head as it was extremely valuable advice.
> 
> Stop babying your horse.
> 
> Shes a horse, not a stuffed animal. If you want to ride something that you can treat like a baby, then get a stuffed animal.
> 
> Stop making excuses for your horse.
> 
> Im hard on you guys because i want to see everyone of you do your best. Now, i dont know whats holding you back but its not something I can help you with. You need to do some soul searching and find out what that is.
> 
> This wasnt said to me but especially the excuses one, really sunk into my head. Its so true, you simply cannot make excuses for your horse. Dont blame the horse, blame yourself.



You are right, she didn't say anything directly to you. But she was loud enough that you heard everything, the other rider being chastised and humiliated as other people heard/watched. Maybe it is fine by you since it was not you. But I stand by my statement that it was not professional at all. She could have spoken to her after the lesson. That is what a professional would do. How would you have felt if she had directed that at you with the others watching?


Everything she said to the other rider does apply directly to you, I am glad you listened and hopefully learned. I hope you don't get satisfaction from another rider being corrected in such a manner and feel like it makes you better than her.


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## jaydee

*MODERATING *
This is a personal Journal not a regular thread. 
If Hoofpic asks for advice or opinions then by all means give them - politely and with some thought for how you word those things but if advice and opinions are not requested then please try to ignore things you don't agree with and move on


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Hoofpic, that show may be free to spectators.


Thats what Im thinking too.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I would only go for one day if it is that far. Unless you take someone who can explain the judging, it is going to be like watching paint dry....until they get to poles and barrels!


I dont know anyone who would want to go with me


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## Dehda01

Ask fellow boarders if anyone wants to come with you and watch. I always find that I learn more watching the warm up rings than the show rings. To see what people do to try to set their horses up... Both wrong and right. But I am happy to sit quietly and not talk for days. 

My 2yr old friesian filly is a dominant mare. It is the main reason I have her. She was very good at scaring her old owner. She had two years of training people on how to mover out of her way. She is how to learn how to not challenge a person when asked to do something. Her first inclination is to shake her head at a person, and think about charging you. She has learned quickly that that gets punished, but sometimes she still thinks about it. She is fun to work with and will become a wonderful horse because she is a fast learner, but I couldn't hand her to a beginner without there being a train wreck.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, you may find as you ask other boarders about going with you that some are already planning that trip. Making friends with fellow horse enthusiasts will enrich your barn experience too if you invite some of them to join you.


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## Skyseternalangel

So how is Fly...?


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> You are right, she didn't say anything directly to you. But she was loud enough that you heard everything, the other rider being chastised and humiliated as other people heard/watched. Maybe it is fine by you since it was not you. But I stand by my statement that it was not professional at all. She could have spoken to her after the lesson. That is what a professional would do. How would you have felt if she had directed that at you with the others watching?
> 
> 
> Everything she said to the other rider does apply directly to you, I am glad you listened and hopefully learned. I hope you don't get satisfaction from another rider being corrected in such a manner and feel like it makes you better than her.


My trainer wasnt going to excuse herself in the lesson and wait afterwards to talk to the other boarder rider. There's nothing with her doing it during the lesson. She was just expressing her frustration thats all.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Ask fellow boarders if anyone wants to come with you and watch. I always find that I learn more watching the warm up rings than the show rings. To see what people do to try to set their horses up... Both wrong and right. But I am happy to sit quietly and not talk for days.
> 
> My 2yr old friesian filly is a dominant mare. It is the main reason I have her. She was very good at scaring her old owner. She had two years of training people on how to mover out of her way. She is how to learn how to not challenge a person when asked to do something. Her first inclination is to shake her head at a person, and think about charging you. She has learned quickly that that gets punished, but sometimes she still thinks about it. She is fun to work with and will become a wonderful horse because she is a fast learner, but I couldn't hand her to a beginner without there being a train wreck.





Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, you may find as you ask other boarders about going with you that some are already planning that trip. Making friends with fellow horse enthusiasts will enrich your barn experience too if you invite some of them to join you.


Okay I will check with other boarders. I know I have formed friendships with boarders over the past few months, have gotten to know them a lot better etc. Afterall, that small obstacle course clinic (close to my barn), that I went to about 2 months ago, I went with another boarder. But it worked out for the both of us because the clinic was so close to the barn. 

Out of town clinics is always much harder to arrange with others.

Even if I go by myself, its not a big deal.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> So how is Fly...?


She was really good yesterday when I saw her. I didn't ride her, just brushed and groomed her and hung out with the BO so he would see her feet and she was good. 

I want to ride her the next time I go out but I'm a bit curious on whether she will stand for me at the block. She did the first two times so far but also I had my trainer with me there to help. Even then, she was really good, didn't fuss much about it.

Its funny because at our barn, we have 3 step blocks and because Im so tall, I actually have to get on Fly with me standing on the 2nd step otherwise I'm too high up standing on the 3rd step. Even with me on the 2nd step, I'm still a bit high up but its manageable. In the perfect world, a 1 step block would be the most ideal for me because of my height. Do they even exist? Trainer said if I feel more comfortable with a 1 step, then I'm more than welcome to bring my own and keep it in the barn.

The 3 step felt really awkward because even though I got on Fly with me standing on the 2nd step, I'm standing at least a good 10" further away from her when getting on, than I'm suppose to because I'm not able to stand on the closest step to her when getting on. Feels really awkward and unnatural. I need to find some way around this.


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## Tazzie

A group lesson is a tricky situation, so I don't have issues with her taking control of the situation right then (otherwise, it'd be one rough lesson). I was under the impression that she was talking to you on a one on one basis, which is SO not cool in my book. Thank you for clarifying, and I apologize for jumping to conclusions on that.

And I think we can all agree that you just have a very, very sweet mare, that I think any one of us would LOVE to have in their barn. Particularly a barn with beginners like yourself (or children as I have both a greenie husband and two kids).

All breed shows are typically free to spectate, and can be VERY cheap to attend. Our next show is an all breed show. $20 for a stall, $10 per class. Has Pasos, Walking Horses, Quarter horses, Arabs, etc doing all sorts of things like driving, hunt seat, and western. No barrels or poles though (no space for them at this show.)

The all breed shows can be VERY eye opening to how people show. As Dehda said, the warm up ring can be an interesting place. At our show in May (though, this was a rated Arab show...) we watched a girl warm her horse up in TIGHT draw reins. And he was attempting to bolt, which made her tighten them. Then she popped a double bridle on him and showed in a show hack class (show hack in the Arab world asks for walk, trot, canter all in normal, extended and collected gaits; I have seen them add gallop too, which I didn't know they could do) Whenever the judge wasn't watching in the ring, she would yank HARD on the outside rein to crank his head down (just so you understand, once a horse is in a double he SHOULD be ready and willing to come round and on the bit using soft, quiet aids; NOT yank and crank.) This GREATLY backfired for her at Regionals when the judge proceeded to stand in the corner so no one could get away with anything fishy. According to my friends that were watching, his head proceeded to get higher when suddenly he bolted for the entry gate and thought about jumping it (they waved their arms to get him to NOT jump it.)

So, shows can be eye opening. You'll see all sorts of things that will make you raise your eyebrows. I will say this though. Unless you know a lot about Dressage including the subtle aids and can really appreciate the difficulty in what it takes for the horses to come round, work over their back, and have that flawless ride, then those classes will be a lot more boring than watching paint dry :lol: and I truly love Dressage. It's just not a style of competition everyone rushes right out to watch since there isn't a ton of "excitement." :lol:

I second checking with boarders though. You just never know! Do many of them show? And do you plan to show? Just curious  I support anyone who just wants to hack around, learn to ride, and just have fun with their horses (cause really, that's all my husband wants to do, so I have ZERO room to judge anyone not wanting to show :lol

Almost forgot to add. Glad you're getting her looked at by another farrier! She may do a little trimming just to balance the hooves a bit. It won't hurt fly if they are tweaked just a touch


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> The 3 step felt really awkward because even though I got on Fly with me standing on the 2nd step, I'm standing at least a good 10" further away from her when getting on, than I'm suppose to because I'm not able to stand on the closest step to her when getting on. Feels really awkward and unnatural. I need to find some way around this.


Can the three step not move? This is the one we have. I'd just turn it so she's coming up alongside the steps. Should remove the extra 10" of space 

http://www.statelinetack.com/item/high-country-3-step-mounting-block/BRW48/


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## Dehda01

Just mount from the first step, and put her at the first step. Position her by block either sideways to it, so you can choose which block to use, or perpendicular to it. Or buy Rubbermaid step stool /toolbox combinationor something similar that is smallish... Trying to link a picture and failing.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> A group lesson is a tricky situation, so I don't have issues with her taking control of the situation right then (otherwise, it'd be one rough lesson). I was under the impression that she was talking to you on a one on one basis, which is SO not cool in my book. Thank you for clarifying, and I apologize for jumping to conclusions on that.


No problem. I'm just glad that you guys know now that my trainer didn't do anything wrong. Group lessons are very beneficial for me because I learn stuff in them that you won't get from 1 on 1's. It's really helpful riding with others around you, not only because it gets you to work through distractions, but it makes you work on keeping your horse's attention on you and you staying focused.



> And I think we can all agree that you just have a very, very sweet mare, that I think any one of us would LOVE to have in their barn. Particularly a barn with beginners like yourself (or children as I have both a greenie husband and two kids).


Thanks. Yes Fly is a very sweet mare but she can be cheeky at times (hence why it says "Cheeky mare" on her halter nose band lol. 

This past week when she was getting massaged. She was being a bit rude to the therapist as she would swing her butt in towards her. The therapist didn't whack her but I told her, if she needed to, I'm okay with it. Cause we all know how we don't particularly want to be whacking other peoples horses. From what I've noticed, Fly mainly does this with people she just met and doesn't know. She did it to the previous therapist as well and the farrier when I first starting using him.



> All breed shows are typically free to spectate, and can be VERY cheap to attend. Our next show is an all breed show. $20 for a stall, $10 per class. Has Pasos, Walking Horses, Quarter horses, Arabs, etc doing all sorts of things like driving, hunt seat, and western. No barrels or poles though (no space for them at this show.)
> 
> The all breed shows can be VERY eye opening to how people show. As Dehda said, the warm up ring can be an interesting place. At our show in May (though, this was a rated Arab show...) we watched a girl warm her horse up in TIGHT draw reins. And he was attempting to bolt, which made her tighten them. Then she popped a double bridle on him and showed in a show hack class (show hack in the Arab world asks for walk, trot, canter all in normal, extended and collected gaits; I have seen them add gallop too, which I didn't know they could do) Whenever the judge wasn't watching in the ring, she would yank HARD on the outside rein to crank his head down (just so you understand, once a horse is in a double he SHOULD be ready and willing to come round and on the bit using soft, quiet aids; NOT yank and crank.) This GREATLY backfired for her at Regionals when the judge proceeded to stand in the corner so no one could get away with anything fishy. According to my friends that were watching, his head proceeded to get higher when suddenly he bolted for the entry gate and thought about jumping it (they waved their arms to get him to NOT jump it.)


Thanks, I think I'm going to go. 



> So, shows can be eye opening. You'll see all sorts of things that will make you raise your eyebrows. I will say this though. Unless you know a lot about Dressage including the subtle aids and can really appreciate the difficulty in what it takes for the horses to come round, work over their back, and have that flawless ride, then those classes will be a lot more boring than watching paint dry :lol: and I truly love Dressage. It's just not a style of competition everyone rushes right out to watch since there isn't a ton of "excitement." :lol:


Okay thanks. I'm sure I will see all sorts of things that will make me raise my eyebrow. I saw some at the previous clinics as well. Fly, over the months, has taught me to become a more patient person and to become more observant of my surroundings. 



> I second checking with boarders though. You just never know! Do many of them show? And do you plan to show? Just curious  I support anyone who just wants to hack around, learn to ride, and just have fun with their horses (cause really, that's all my husband wants to do, so I have ZERO room to judge anyone not wanting to show :lol


No other boarders show. It's an older crowd at my barn and aside from myself, my trainer and one other boarder...the other 4 boarders are walkers. They don't trot. They have Tennessee walkers and their second gait is a fast walk. 

So when we have clinics at the barn, 90% of the horses in it are Tennessee walkers and the handlers are walkers. Then there will be a separate group for trotters.



> Almost forgot to add. Glad you're getting her looked at by another farrier! She may do a little trimming just to balance the hooves a bit. It won't hurt fly if they are tweaked just a touch


I'm glad as well. Doesn't hurt to get a second opinion. My farrier now is good, and has done a good job, but lately there's just been some red flags that's all that have made me reconsider using him.

Fly has come a long ways with farriers though. Remember, up until I bought her in June of last year, she had never been trimmed by a farrier before. The very first trim that I had with her, she did not stand well at all. She was being a brat, was fussing, wouldn't lift her feet up for the farrier. She was getting so impatient and was dancing all over the place.

But she has come a long ways. She now stands so well when getting trimmed.


----------



## Hoofpic

I really wish I took pics and videos of her at the old barn, just so you guys could get an idea of how Fly and I were before. But also, it would be nice to reflect back on how Fly's and I journey all started. Because there has been significant change. It started off rough, really rough, (her turning her butt to me, trying to push me out of the way by flicking her muzzle into me, her charging at me in the arena when I let her loose), but I got through it. It would have been interesting to see the difference in how I handle her today compare to when I got her.

This pic is from the old barn, last Aug or Sept of last year. The mare in the back was just a year older than Fly but is 17hh and was a big time jumper, so she was in a lot of competitions. The mare was leased by a trainer who boarded at the barn and she was the one who recommended me the first farrier that I used, since this farrier trimmed her lease mare as well. 

This pic was BEFORE Fly had her feel balanced. That black halter was the stiff rope halter that I used for her groundwork but I no longer use it. She hated it! Can't blame her because this halter was stiff, thin, and put extra pressure points on her.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Can the three step not move? This is the one we have. I'd just turn it so she's coming up alongside the steps. Should remove the extra 10" of space
> 
> http://www.statelinetack.com/item/high-country-3-step-mounting-block/BRW48/


I can try to move it. Good idea, just turn it around, never thought of this. Thanks.

I forgot to answer your other question. I would love to show down the road, but it would be in cowboy challenge or liberty (if I can ever get into it). But that is so far down the line, it might not even happen. We would be talking years away, if it happens at all.

What a more realistic goal would be, is taking Fly to clinics and be a participant (which I still plan on doing).

The tack shop where I had my stirrups twisted last week are running a riding obstacle course clinic next month with the same clinician from the last clinic I attended there 2 months ago (Kateri Cowley...ring a bell anyone?). She was the winner of Extreme Cowboy Challenge in 2014 I believe at the Calgary Stampede. And cowboy challenge is pretty much her thing. 

They asked if I wanted to attend and I said Im very interested but I need to find out the exact dates and pricing first. I have a feeling it will be too expensive for me (just judging by how much it cost me to audit her clinic 2 months ago).

Plus (even though the clinic is only a 15min drive from the barn), trailering Fly to and from could be a problem since it could lead past supper time and my trainer would definitely haul Fly for me, but she usually has other stuff going on in the night times. We will see though. If the price is right and the times work for me, I would love to attend and this will be the first ever (outside) clinic for Fly and I.

Here is a video of Kateri from her 2014 championship. I can't say enough on just how much Cowboy challenge interests me. And I know it does for Fly as well, according to her previous owner, obstacles is her thing, mainly because it keeps her mind stimulated and doesn't bore her.






With that being said, my trainer is headed to a Cowboy Challenge next month with her gelding. She is huge into cowboy challenge as well.


----------



## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> I want to ride her the next time I go out but I'm a bit curious on whether she will stand for me at the block. She did the first two times so far but also I had my trainer with me there to help. Even then, she was really good, didn't fuss much about it.


Just do it like you have done it a billion times and don't expect anything besides her standing. If you get tense or excited about it, Fly will pick up on that. Treat it like any other part of your ride routine (grooming, tacking up, etc) and bet you she will stand!


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## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> Just do it like you have done it a billion times and don't expect anything besides her standing. If you get tense or excited about it, Fly will pick up on that. Treat it like any other part of your ride routine (grooming, tacking up, etc) and bet you she will stand!


I agree and that's exactly what I plan on doing. Just go about it as if I'm not asking anything from her and I know she will stand.


----------



## greentree

Sorry if this turns into a double post. This new tablet is driving me batty.

Why do you need to turn the block around? Use the side. But really, if you are only using the bottom step, you may as well mount from the ground.
I would go up to the top step, swing my leg over, and lower myself down, not even using the stirrup,


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Sorry if this turns into a double post. This new tablet is driving me batty.
> 
> Why do you need to turn the block around? Use the side. But really, if you are only using the bottom step, you may as well mount from the ground.
> I would go up to the top step, swing my leg over, and lower myself down, not even using the stirrup,


What new tablet did you buy?

Well I want to get on Fly, no higher than the 1st or 2nd step. I can manage the 2nd as long as there is no 3rd step inbetween Fly and I, then I have to scretch my leg well over just to get to her. 

By turning the mount, I just have to back up one step, then get on her. 

My trainer said to me that, even when mounting from a block, to never swing your leg around them and just sit on them. But to still put your first foot into the stirrup, THEN swing your leg over to the other stirrup. But I immediately thought, if you are putting weight and your foot into one stirrup before getting on from the mount. Then doesnt that completely defeat the purpose of mounting from the block? Because essentially you do the exact same thing from the ground, except when on the ground your weight is coming from the ground upwards. Whereas from the block, its coming from about half of the vertical distance.

She said something about, if that horse was to take off...you have one foot in the stirrup to at least stand up on and quickly dismount and jump down from if you need. But if that horse was to all of a sudden run off just as you are about to plant yourself on them, you are on the ground.


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## Dehda01

No, you don't skip using the left stirrup and hop up. You use the left stirrup to put your left foot in, and swing up into the saddle. Yes, you always want at least one foot in the stirrup as fast as possible. 

By using the block, you are changing the physics of mounting and not tweaking on their back as much. A shorter mounting period being in the air with all of your weight, not having to put as much weight in the stirrup and not having to pull to get into position. 

You are a tall person on a short horse. You are not 100% graceful yet. It can be hard for a small horse to sometimes balance under a tall person, particularly if they are accidentally cueing them to go, or unbalancing them so they must take a few steps to rebalance themselves. 

My greenies balance better with me getting on with a block, though for the first few rides I don't, for safety reasons.


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## greentree

I have always foundit easier to get off with no feet in the stirrups, but you do what your trainer says.

I did not buy a tablet, it is the free one that they give you to shut you up when you get mad at them for blatantly lying to you, haha!


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## Dehda01

I prefer to dismount with no stirrups, so that no feet ever get hung up, should a horse spook forward while dismounting. Though, sometimes, with the western saddle it is easier managing the horn and dismounting with your left foot in the stirrup. I only do that with a truly trusted horse... But I have hung up shirts and bra straps before


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> No, you don't skip using the left stirrup and hop up. You use the left stirrup to put your left foot in, and swing up into the saddle. Yes, you always want at least one foot in the stirrup as fast as possible.
> 
> By using the block, you are changing the physics of mounting and not tweaking on their back as much. A shorter mounting period being in the air with all of your weight, not having to put as much weight in the stirrup and not having to pull to get into position.
> 
> You are a tall person on a short horse. You are not 100% graceful yet. It can be hard for a small horse to sometimes balance under a tall person, particularly if they are accidentally cueing them to go, or unbalancing them so they must take a few steps to rebalance themselves.
> 
> My greenies balance better with me getting on with a block, though for the first few rides I don't, for safety reasons.


Thanks.

So when you say to put your first foot into the stirrup, its fine to put your entire body weight into it? When I did it, I was hesistant to put my weight into it, so I had my right foot planted on the 2nd step, then I would step completely over the 3rd step with my left and half my heel on the step and the rest of the foot in the stirrup. So that way my weight was also on the 3rd step, cutting back on the amount of weight in the stirrup. Then when I stepped over, I continued to keep the weight from my heal on the 3rd step until I fully got over.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I have always foundit easier to get off with no feet in the stirrups, but you do what your trainer says.
> 
> I did not buy a tablet, it is the free one that they give you to shut you up when you get mad at them for blatantly lying to you, haha!


No, no my trainer was referring to getting on.

For getting off, she wants me to get both feet out of the stirrups first, then get off. She said if you only get one out, then try to get off, you risk having that other leg get caught and if that horse takes off and its caught, you will be dragged. Just not a pretty sight. I could see a lot of sprained ankles getting off this way. No thanks.


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## Prairie

When I use a 3 step mounting block, I do it like @greentree posted. Actually not using the stirrup to mount is easier on the horse's back because you are not twisting the saddle to one side as you put all your weight in the left stirrup to mount. 


Cowboy challenges can be fun, but I strongly suggest you try just a few trail courses first which can be completed at a walk and trot normally. Tiny steps work best when introducing a horse to a new challenge in their training.


----------



## Dehda01

Yes, you put your entire weight in the left stirrup while mounting from a mounting block. I would have put her perpendicular to the mounting block and then chosen which step would work best for us. But I have no problem mounting from a high step. You just don't want too low of a step, because then it causes the same problems as mounting from the ground. I am just trying to give Fly's back a bit of a break, and to help you learn to mount a bit more gracefully.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> When I use a 3 step mounting block, I do it like @*greentree* posted. Actually not using the stirrup to mount is easier on the horse's back because you are not twisting the saddle to one side as you put all your weight in the left stirrup to mount.


Well I better do it how my trainer would like me to do it with me putting one foot in the stirrup before getting on. So Im sure I can continue doing what Ive been doing and that is keeping my heel on the block so I keep half of my weight on the block as I step into the stirrup and the other half in the actual stirrup.



> Cowboy challenges can be fun, but I strongly suggest you try just a few trail courses first which can be completed at a walk and trot normally. Tiny steps work best when introducing a horse to a new challenge in their training.


Yes I plan on doing a few trial courses. You mean just out on the trail right? My trainer said she will go out with me in the field on her gelding across the barn and down the path when Im ready.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Just mount from the first step, and put her at the first step. Position her by block either sideways to it, so you can choose which block to use, or perpendicular to it. Or buy Rubbermaid step stool /toolbox combinationor something similar that is smallish... Trying to link a picture and failing.


Thanks I will see if I can pick one of those up.


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## Hoofpic

I just read this and very informative.

Experts' Opinions on Keeping a Barefoot Horse


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## Prairie

No on just going out on the trail. There are trail classes at shows where the horse and rider are judged on negotiating the obstacles which would be a good introduction to learning the ins and outs of controlling the horses for eventually competing in a Cowboy Challenge.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I just read this and very informative.
> 
> Experts' Opinions on Keeping a Barefoot Horse


What did you learn from this article?


----------



## natisha

greentree said:


> Sorry if this turns into a double post. This new tablet is driving me batty.
> 
> Why do you need to turn the block around? Use the side. But really, if you are only using the bottom step, you may as well mount from the ground.
> I would go up to the top step, swing my leg over, and lower myself down, not even using the stirrup,


 I do that too sometimes but not with greenies.
That's how some people get on bareback. Hoofpic isn't ready for that.


----------



## natisha

Dehda01 said:


> No, you don't skip using the left stirrup and hop up. You use the left stirrup to put your left foot in, and swing up into the saddle. Yes, you always want at least one foot in the stirrup as fast as possible.
> 
> By using the block, you are changing the physics of mounting and not tweaking on their back as much. A shorter mounting period being in the air with all of your weight, not having to put as much weight in the stirrup and not having to pull to get into position.


Yes, that is the part that I think Hoofpic is missing.

Hoofpic, the stirrup is not a step. Watch the cinchless mounting video again. See how when the person used the stirrup as a step that the saddle slipped?
When they did the hop their weight was only in the stirrup for the short amount of time it took their body mass to get over the horse's back & supported by the hands.
If you were getting on bareback you wouldn't flop your butt right down but would instead support your weight with your arms then swing your leg over & lower yourself down. The same concept is used when mounting with a saddle.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> No on just going out on the trail. There are trail classes at shows where the horse and rider are judged on negotiating the obstacles which would be a good introduction to learning the ins and outs of controlling the horses for eventually competing in a Cowboy Challenge.


Oh, I see, thanks. Well if I go next weekend to this show, I will be sure to check out the trial classes.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> What did you learn from this article?


This really caught my attention.
_
Certified farrier Walt Taylor, of Albuquerque, N.M., also cautions against getting hung up on hoof angles. "As long as the hoof-pastern axis is right, it doesn’t matter what the numbers are,” he says. _


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## Prairie

He maybe certified, but what organization is his certificate from? Just be aware there are a lot of fly-by-night farrier schools that aren't worth a plug nickel out there. A simple example is a farrier who was well recommended because he was certified. He tried to kick our gelding in the gut when the idiot grabbed his hoof without setting him up so the gelding was off balance---I yelled at him before he connected with the horse, asked him what he thought was doing, and told him to get off this place. He told me that the school taught him to kick a horse in the gut if he jerked his hoof. A good farrier sets the horse up for success and doesn't punish the horse for his error.


What really bothered me about that article is it talked about hoof angles, but never discussed how to determine the correct angle for the individual horse. It also didn't discuss the underlying bone structure that needs to be considered when trimming nor did it say anything about breakover. 


A better source on information on correct hoof trimming is on the ELPO site........Information.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Yes, that is the part that I think Hoofpic is missing.
> 
> Hoofpic, the stirrup is not a step. Watch the cinchless mounting video again. See how when the person used the stirrup as a step that the saddle slipped?
> When they did the hop their weight was only in the stirrup for the short amount of time it took their body mass to get over the horse's back & supported by the hands.
> If you were getting on bareback you wouldn't flop your butt right down but would instead support your weight with your arms then swing your leg over & lower yourself down. The same concept is used when mounting with a saddle.


Sorry which video is this? I don't think I have seen it yet.


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## greentree

So one farrier in the article thought horses should be 50- 55, then the other one says do not get hung up on angles.

What about that caught your attention?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> He maybe certified, but what organization is his certificate from? Just be aware there are a lot of fly-by-night farrier schools that aren't worth a plug nickel out there.


Okay.



> A simple example is a farrier who was well recommended because he was certified. He tried to kick our gelding in the gut when the idiot grabbed his hoof without setting him up so the gelding was off balance---I yelled at him before he connected with the horse, asked him what he thought was doing, and told him to get off this place. He told me that the school taught him to kick a horse in the gut if he jerked his hoof. A good farrier sets the horse up for success and doesn't punish the horse for his error.


Ooh wow. So your gelding basically tried to pull his foot back?

So last July when I had Fly trimmed for the very first time (the old farrier) and Fly wouldnt stand for him and was antzy and was pulling back her leg when he was trying to hold it....he wacked Fly really hard with the butt end handle of his filer on her tummy. It totally caught her off guard and startled her. Her ears went back. Would you say that was bad and you would have yelled at him?



> What really bothered me about that article is it talked about hoof angles, but never discussed how to determine the correct angle for the individual horse. It also didn't discuss the underlying bone structure that needs to be considered when trimming nor did it say anything about breakover.
> 
> 
> A better source on information on correct hoof trimming is on the ELPO site........Information.


Thats true. The article was all about shoes. It didnt relate at all about horses with no shoes.

That link is better thanks.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> So one farrier in the article thought horses should be 50- 55, then the other one says do not get hung up on angles.
> 
> What about that caught your attention?


Nothing really. The article wasnt as good as I initally thought.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Nothing really. The article *wasnt as good as I initally thought*.



And that's okay! That's how you learn what is good advice or information versus bad information or advice.


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## Prairie

"Ooh wow. So your gelding basically tried to pull his foot back?"


Actually the gelding tried to regain his balance since the so-called farrier didn't bother to make sure he was standing square before grabbing his hoof.


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## greentree

Ok, time for the quizzes to start!!!

1. Please find 3 pictures and the PROPER name for "his filer". 

2. True or False.
" his filer" only has one useable side. 

Please answer using the official name for the equipment.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well my lenses came in and should be ready for pick up today. Im excited but in a way upset at myself because I overpaid about $100 on my lenses. And thats even including the 20% off the small mom and pop gave me on my lens and frames.

I decided to call Superstore (where I got my current lenses from 3 years ago) and see if their pricing was still the same. Yes it was! I could have gotten Essilor Forte coating lenses with transitions for $180CDN. AHHH!!! I paid $290 for mine last week and they're Synoptic brand and definitely won't have as good of a coating as Essilors. Still a good brand, but theyre no Essilor and I do believe you get what you pay for when it comes to lenses. 

So I called the optical shop that I bought my glasses from last Friday to see if it would be too late to cancel the lens order and just buy the frames (then I would take them to Superstore to order the Essilors), too late. My new lenses came in yesterday and he is cutting them for me today. Crap!

I knew I should have got the lenses at Superstore (like I did last time). Simply because no one can compete with large chains when it comes to lenses for your dollar. This is my fault, I always known I should have done this, but when I was at the optical store last Friday (its just a small mom and pop store a few blocks from my place), I just went ahead with all of it and got the frames and lenses there even though I knew it was a lens with an inferior coating. Optics wise, it is the same quality as Essilor, its just the coating wont be as good. But lenses is all about coatings.

Not that the one I got isnt a good brand, its just not Essilor. I was just lazy I guess and in a way wanted to support small mom and pop shops. The optician is great and great service and really friendly. Plus he gave me a free eye test.

I like to support small mom and pop shops every now and then as they dont receive near as much business as other larger stores like Costco, Superstore etc. But the only real way for these small mom and pop shops to survive today is to sell their frames and lenses at a higher price.

Im considering going to Superstore today and ordering a set of Essilor transition lenses, then put those in my glasses when I get them, and the ones from the small mom and pop shop, take out and have them as backups. But really, we all know, back up lenses are pointless if they're not going to sit in a pair of frames especially seeing how my current frames right now that Im wearing, I was planning on retiring as my backup pair of glasses.

The good thing about Essilor lenses is that before the 2 year warranty is up, you can take your lenses in and get them replaced from just normal wear and scratches on the lenses. I'm pretty sure the guy from the small pop and mom shop said you can do that with his lenses too, but I would be a bit weary on whether lens replacement is as easy and hassleless at a small shop than a large chain like Superstore, Costco, no questions asked etc.


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## jenkat86

Are you upset at the money you spent, or the quality you got?

If it's because of the money spent....if you buy the other lenses in addition to the ones you just got, then you would be spending $470 in the end...and you would still have a frameless pair of lenses that you will never use.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Are you upset at the money you spent, or the quality you got?
> 
> If it's because of the money spent....if you buy the other lenses in addition to the ones you just got, then you would be spending $470 in the end...and you would still have a frameless pair of lenses that you will never use.


I'm upset because I was stupid last Friday for buying both the frame and lenses at the small mom and pop shop when I knew I should have just bought the frames from them, then take them over to Superstore to buy the lenses. I would have paid about $100 less and gotten a lens with a better coating on them and perhaps better transition technology (this I dont know forsure though).

I knew better, I was just lazy. And I've been wearing glasses for long enough to know that lenses are all about the quality of the coatings on them. That is what makes them last. Not saying the lenses that I will pick up from my small mom and pop later today won't have a good coating, but like the owner told me last Friday, "the coating won't be good as Essilors". 
I mean I guess I could just use these lens for now and see how they fair. But it bothers me a bit knowing the coating on them isn't as good as Essilors. Especially considering the dusty environments (the barn) that I'm in a lot, a very good coating is very important for me. I do have to clean my glasses a lot, just because they get so dirty from the barn.

The current lenses in my glasses Im wearing right now are Essilors and I bought them exactly 3 years and 2 months ago. The coating on them is still good and it has minor scratches from just age and wear. Mind you, I take real good care of my glasses and always clean them with the right clothes, so that would explain it. But also, to have any lenses last this long is money well spent. 

I don't exactly want a $300 pair of brand new lenses sitting in my house collecting dust over the next 2-3 years and that's why I'm hesistant on ordering a set of Essilors from Superstore today. But it does bother me knowing, that when I pick up my new glasses later today from the small mom and pop shop, the lenses on them isnt the best in terms of the coating.


----------



## greentree

Is this an anti fog coating?


----------



## Hoofpic

The quality of the lens coating ultimately determines how long that lens lasts before needing replacement. Better coatings deteriorate at a slower rate, and also scratch less, so therefore the lens will be able to go a longer time before needing replacement.

When I was talking to the owner about comparing Synoptic lenses to Essilors and he was discussing how the coating on the Essilors will be better. He basically said that a high quality Essilor should last 3 years easy without needing a replacement. With Synoptic, it will be around two years, but with good care it should last two. And two is how long the warranty is.

Seeing how often I clean my glasses and how they're often exposed in harsher dustier environments, I knew I should have gone with Essilors.

That deal at superstore right now (50% off), I feel is too good to pass up. $180CDN for a set of Essilor Forte lenses with transitions is a steal IMO. The forte is the top of the line coating. The best that you can buy for Essilor lenses. 

The lenses that Im wearing right now are the model one step down from the Forte's and they've lasted me 3 years and 2 months and still going strong. So that means that the Forte's will be able to withstand even more and last longer than my current lenses and IMO are a huge step up (in terms of the coating) on the lenses from the mom and pop shop.

If I do order a pair of Essilors from Superstore today, yes I would have a wasted pair of brand new lenses sitting in my drawer for the next 2-3 years, but I will be getting back $150 from my insurance company so that would lessen the blow a bit. 

But I hate wasting money though, nothing bothers me more than this. Just like that Myler D-ring bit that I wasted $180 on and I can't seem to sell it now!!!! It's sitting in a plastic bag in my car and it makes me more depressed each time I think about it. Now that is $180 down the toilet. Not money well spent. I can't believe that nobody has interest in a used once Myler bit?

But lenses are a different story since they will be on my head for every second that I am awake over the next few years.


----------



## 6gun Kid

I buy a new pair of glasses every year (or rather my insurance does), and I might wear them 2 or 3 times a year.


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## jenkat86

I'm having a hard time understanding why you are wanting to spend an additional $180 on a set of lenses you aren't going to use for 2 years...when you already have a warranty on the current lenses. 

IMO, THAT would be wasting money, no?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Is this an anti fog coating?


The lenses that I get always have UV coating, anti-scratch (and yes they always say anti-fog as well) but we all know that anti-fog doesnt really work on glasses. At least Ive yet to use a set that does in -30 winters after going indoors from shovelling snow.

But the more you pay, the better the coatings are. 

Knowing that glasses is something I can't live without, a high end coating is well worth the money. And Im seeing it in my current glasses, 3 years and 2 months now and the coating is still good on it.


----------



## Tazzie

I've never put so much thought into lenses before in my life. I truly didn't even know there were different coatings for the lenses aside from being told I got a scratch resistant lens. I've worn glasses daily for 15 years (not as long as some, but still a fairly decent amount of time.) My glasses have been grabbed my tiny kids and been exposed to all sorts of elements such as dusty arenas, strong winds on a lake, and downhill skiing. I've never had any issue going with whatever type of coating my local mom and pop place puts on my lens.

I definitely wouldn't spend that money on another pair of lenses. Waste of money all the way around.

As for the Myler, where on Earth did you pay $180 for it?? We have a Myler as well (Izzie hated it) that we plan to keep for my bit collection, but it wasn't THAT much! You may have to take a loss on it in order to sell it. There are various English tack sale pages on Facebook you could sell it for though. Two being English Tack Trader and English Tack Exchange.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I'm having a hard time understanding why you are wanting to spend an additional $180 on a set of lenses you aren't going to use for 2 years...when you already have a warranty on the current lenses.
> 
> IMO, THAT would be wasting money, no?


Just piece of mind really. If I was to go buy the Essilors from Superstore, when those come in, THOSE would go into my new glasses and the lenses from the mom and pop shop will sit. Yes, thats right, lenses that I will use for a whole week, will all of a sudden sit in a drawer for the next couple years and may or may not ever be used again (99.9% chance they don't ever get used again).

The Essilors I feel are too good of a deal to pass up. $180 more yes, but its a top of the line coating and IMO will be MUCH better than the coating from the mom and pop lenses. 50% off is a hot deal. But also, I know the markup involved on lenses and frames, its ridiculously inflated. I used to work at an eyewear store here about 8 or 9 years ago so I knew all the price gouging going on with customers. I quit because of this. It wasn't in my heart to rip off customers on a daily basis, forced to tell lies just to make sales. I couldn't put up with all the dishonesty, lies and high pressured sales so one day I just walked out on my boss.

I'm going to feel a lot better inside knowing I have the best coating that I can buy and especially since my new glasses are so big, bigger lenses = more to clean = more lens to get dirty and chances of scratching = makes that coating quality all that more important.


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## tinaev

Relax on the lenses, they will be fine. Trust me, I work in the industry. Yes, if you're doing an AR coat, no AR is better than a crappy AR. In fact most of our patients don't get any coatings at all because of the problems they can run in to down the line. 

I'm not familiar with the brand you said you purchased. However, I believe you said the lenses are warrantied for two years? If so, you're good to go. A prescription is only valid for two years and you should be having your eyes examined by a doctor every year anyway. Save your money and don't worry about buying another set just to have laying around. If you run into problems with the set you already bought and have issues with the warranty service then go purchase a new set at that time. I promise you the mom & pop shop is not trying to screw you over and sell you bad products. They sell the products that they trust and that are a good value for their patients. Name brand does not always mean superior. Thank you for supporting a small business, they are what makes the world go round. Someday all we will have are big super stores to shop at and that will be awful.

Regrading the photochromic lenses, if you got Transitions name brand, there will not be a difference in quality from purchasing from one store or another. Transitions are Transitions. There are lots of brands of photochromic lenses and they are not all created equal. Some change darker or lighter, some react more quickly, etc. If you are concerned about the photochromics find out what brand you got and go from there. I prefer name brand Transitions but have lots of patients that choose other brands covered by their insurance and they typically don't complain.

ETA: I just saw this "I'm going to feel a lot better inside knowing I have the best coating that I can buy" So it sounds like you've made up your mind. Best of luck and enjoy your new glasses!


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I've never put so much thought into lenses before in my life. I truly didn't even know there were different coatings for the lenses aside from being told I got a scratch resistant lens. I've worn glasses daily for 15 years (not as long as some, but still a fairly decent amount of time.) My glasses have been grabbed my tiny kids and been exposed to all sorts of elements such as dusty arenas, strong winds on a lake, and downhill skiing. I've never had any issue going with whatever type of coating my local mom and pop place puts on my lens.
> 
> I definitely wouldn't spend that money on another pair of lenses. Waste of money all the way around.
> 
> As for the Myler, where on Earth did you pay $180 for it?? We have a Myler as well (Izzie hated it) that we plan to keep for my bit collection, but it wasn't THAT much! You may have to take a loss on it in order to sell it. There are various English tack sale pages on Facebook you could sell it for though. Two being English Tack Trader and English Tack Exchange.


The Myler D-ring bits go for $170-180 here locally. It was a sweet iron one with a single break snaffle. 

I don't care who buys it, I just want to get rid of it. Fly had it in her mouth for all of 10mins before taking it out. I'm shocked, I thought these things were popular. 

I might take it to a consignment store here that gets quite a bit of traffic. 
I've tried posting it up on a few tack for sale pages on Facebook.


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## Dehda01

Myler D ring sweet iron comfort snaffle goes for $91.99 online at sstack.com. Most Myler snaffles are about $90ish US dollars online. They are popular, but people buy them where they can get a good deal.


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## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> Relax on the lenses, they will be fine. Trust me, I work in the industry. Yes, if you're doing an AR coat, no AR is better than a crappy AR. In fact most of our patients don't get any coatings at all because of the problems they can run in to down the line.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the brand you said you purchased. However, I believe you said the lenses are warrantied for two years? If so, you're good to go. A prescription is only valid for two years and you should be having your eyes examined by a doctor every year anyway. Save your money and don't worry about buying another set just to have laying around. If you run into problems with the set you already bought and have issues with the warranty service then go purchase a new set at that time. I promise you the mom & pop shop is not trying to screw you over and sell you bad products. They sell the products that they trust and that are a good value for their patients. Name brand does not always mean superior. Thank you for supporting a small business, they are what makes the world go round. Someday all we will have are big super stores to shop at and that will be awful.
> 
> Regrading the photochromic lenses, if you got Transitions name brand, there will not be a difference in quality from purchasing from one store or another. Transitions are Transitions. There are lots of brands of photochromic lenses and they are not all created equal. Some change darker or lighter, some react more quickly, etc. If you are concerned about the photochromics find out what brand you got and go from there. I prefer name brand Transitions but have lots of patients that choose other brands covered by their insurance and they typically don't complain.
> 
> ETA: I just saw this "I'm going to feel a lot better inside knowing I have the best coating that I can buy" So it sounds like you've made up your mind. Best of luck and enjoy your new glasses!


I haven't made up my mind just yet, but the transition brand in my lenses from the mom and pop shop, I'm pretty sure are the same as the lens brand itself - which is Synoptic. Not sure if that is the correct spelling but when I tried looking it up, nothing came up. 

I'm not doubting that they are good lenses and that the owner is selling a bad product. I just don't think the coating on them is near as good as Essilors. I've had many lens brands in my life and I will say that my current Essilor lenses in my glasses now are by far the best I've had in terms of how few scratches and wear are on them. 

Going by past experiences, there is nothing worse than having to constantly bring in your glasses to get the lenses replaced because tiny scratches will show up so soon. But scratches that are big enough to notice when looking through the lens. I had this problem with the lens from the eyeglass shop that I used to work at 8 or 9 years ago and those lens retailed for twice the cost of Essilors lol. Just goes to show how much of a rip off they were.

Realistically, yes you should be getting your eyes checked every year but you can get away with every two years. New lens are recommended every two years, even if your RX stays the same. Which the owner of the shop says, the coatings on the Synoptic lenses will last 2 years easily (taking it that I take care of them, which I do). 

You do have to factor in that, buying lenses from big stores, it's usually less of a hassle to get your lenses warrantied for new ones at no cost within the 2 year warranty. I know Superstore do it no questions asked. So in 2 years (as long as you bring in your updated RX), you can go in and ask for a new set at no extra cost. Obviously, the warranty does not carry over to the new lens. So if you go in with a week left on your original 2 year warranty, that means you get a weeks warranty on the new lens. This is something that they allow to do once within that 2 year period and any more times are 50% off the original cost (which is still good and is a bonus).

Now, the owner at the mom and pop shop says i can do the same if I wanted. But I'm not sure if it would be as hassle free as they make it sound. It's just a risk I take. 

When you said that there isn't any difference in quality between transition brands? Do you mean that "there is a difference?" Because there are people on youtube doing side by side comparisons on two brands in terms of how quickly they transition back to clear when going back indoors, how dark they go etc.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> The Myler D-ring bits go for $170-180 here locally. It was a sweet iron one with a single break snaffle.
> 
> I don't care who buys it, I just want to get rid of it. Fly had it in her mouth for all of 10mins before taking it out. I'm shocked, I thought these things were popular.
> 
> I might take it to a consignment store here that gets quite a bit of traffic.
> I've tried posting it up on a few tack for sale pages on Facebook.


How much are you trying to sell it for?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> How much are you trying to sell it for?


I asked for $130obo. I would even take $100 for it.

This is a valuable lesson learned for me to not fall for everything said to you in clinics. I think people at the tack stores are ten times worse though. They will try to sell you everything under the sun to you, no matter if you need it or not. 

The day I stumble across a person working at a tack shop who doesn't do this, will make me a return customer.

The tack shop where I had my stirrups turned are the worst. Nice people, but if I was to go in today looking for a new saddle. The owner (despite remembering me being in just last week to pick up my newly turned stirrups), wouldn't flinch at asking me why I'm looking at or wanting a new saddle when I was just there last week. She would sell everything that she could to me on the spot. Just terrible.


----------



## 6gun Kid

jenkat86 said:


> How much are you trying to sell it for?


 Just remember todays exchange rate is 1 U.S Dollar + $ 1.35 Canadian.


----------



## tinyliny

I don't know the in's and out' of the lens industry, but I do know that good quality lenses do work better. I have some Progressive type lenses , made in Germany, that are far superior to the others I had , made locally. the Germans have been leaders in lens technology for decades.

also, correct cleaning of the lenses is paramount. use the cleaner and lense papers, ONLY. rinse with water and clean with soft fabric if you must, but better to stick with the cleaner and lens papers only. I have always abused mine, and they are so scratcehd by the time I replace. this time? I am treating them with respect, and they are staying clear much longer.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> I don't know the in's and out' of the lens industry, but I do know that good quality lenses do work better. I have some Progressive type lenses , made in Germany, that are far superior to the others I had , made locally. the Germans have been leaders in lens technology for decades.
> 
> also, correct cleaning of the lenses is paramount. use the cleaner and lense papers, ONLY. rinse with water and clean with soft fabric if you must, but better to stick with the cleaner and lens papers only. I have always abused mine, and they are so scratcehd by the time I replace. this time? I am treating them with respect, and they are staying clear much longer.


Yes that is very true. I only clean my glasses with microfibre cloths and lens cleaner. Water works too if I dont have any cleaner around.

My mom always just uses kleenex or her shirt and I've always told her that it's way too rough. But she doesn't want to have to carry around a cloth and cleaner around. Yes it's more work but it's worth it. I always kept a bottle of cleaning solution and cloths at my work desk, home, and car. 

But, from my experience, what a higher end coating will do is withstand more debris and particles and harsher environments without scratching (or at least a lot less), as the coating will be more scratch resistant.

My previous glasses were terrible. I had to replace the lenses 3 or 4 times because scratches would show up out of nowhere. But the current lens, I never had to replace it once and it's been 3 years and 2 months now. Long overdue for me though, I should have replaced them a year ago.


----------



## Hoofpic

This week has been forgettable. Non stop storms every day, so I haven't been able to ride Fly at all. BO feeds more when it rains. I was hoping to ride yesterday, and should have. But I got caught talking with my BO for well over an hour yesterday and by the time I was done, it was too close to feeding time. Today, tomorrow, and Sunday storms. Uhh. But it looks like our endless drought of rain will end Sunday and we sunny again. If I can still get on Fly on my own once this week I will be happy. I do have a lesson tomorrow as well.

I'm sure Fly is very much loving the time off haha, but this mare needs to be ridden.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> "Ooh wow. So your gelding basically tried to pull his foot back?"
> 
> 
> Actually the gelding tried to regain his balance since the so-called farrier didn't bother to make sure he was standing square before grabbing his hoof.


Oh okay, I get it now.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Ok, time for the quizzes to start!!!
> 
> 1. Please find 3 pictures and the PROPER name for "his filer".
> 
> 2. True or False.
> " his filer" only has one useable side.
> 
> Please answer using the official name for the equipment.


1. Rasp is one, thats the first thing that came to my mind. Will think on the other two.

2. False


----------



## jenkat86

6gun Kid said:


> Just remember todays exchange rate is 1 U.S Dollar + $ 1.35 Canadian.


Right...but if he's trying to sell it for what he paid then he probably won't get very far. 

(Not saying that's what he's doing...)


----------



## tinaev

Hoofpic said:


> When you said that there isn't any difference in quality between transition brands? Do you mean that "there is a difference?" Because there are people on youtube doing side by side comparisons on two brands in terms of how quickly they transition back to clear when going back indoors, how dark they go etc.


I'm sorry I'm not sure I understand your question.

Transitions is a brand with several different products. People often use the brand name in place of other terms much like people say "Kleenex" to mean tissue. 

Transitions makes Transitions Signature, Transitions XtraActive, and Transitions Vantage (and probably a couple others I'm forgetting.) If you are ordering any of these Transitions brand products they will be the same regardless of where you buy them from. If the place you are buying from is using the term "Transitions" like people use the term "Kleenex" then you could be getting a different company's product and wouldn't even know it. Not saying these others are bad products but they will be different. 

Now, just like with anything technology changes and Transitions will come out with new versions of their products which may cause some slight variation. For example the newest version of Transitions is Signature 7. For people that got glasses a few years back they would have Signature 6. There will be some subtle variations noticed between the two versions as Transitions has upgraded the product.

Again, I'm not sure if that is the info you were asking for but hopefully it helps.


----------



## greentree

Dont you have an indoor arena?


----------



## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> I'm sorry I'm not sure I understand your question.
> 
> Transitions is a brand with several different products. People often use the brand name in place of other terms much like people say "Kleenex" to mean tissue.
> 
> Transitions makes Transitions Signature, Transitions XtraActive, and Transitions Vantage (and probably a couple others I'm forgetting.) If you are ordering any of these Transitions brand products they will be the same regardless of where you buy them from. If the place you are buying from is using the term "Transitions" like people use the term "Kleenex" then you could be getting a different company's product and wouldn't even know it. Not saying these others are bad products but they will be different.
> 
> Now, just like with anything technology changes and Transitions will come out with new versions of their products which may cause some slight variation. For example the newest version of Transitions is Signature 7. For people that got glasses a few years back they would have Signature 6. There will be some subtle variations noticed between the two versions as Transitions has upgraded the product.
> 
> Again, I'm not sure if that is the info you were asking for but hopefully it helps.


I see what you mean now thanks. I didn't know that there is actually a brand called "Transitions".


----------



## egrogan

Ditto @greentree's question-and what does feeding time have to do with being able to ride?


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I asked for $130obo. I would even take $100 for it.
> 
> This is a valuable lesson learned for me to not fall for everything said to you in clinics. I think people at the tack stores are ten times worse though. They will try to sell you everything under the sun to you, no matter if you need it or not.
> 
> The day I stumble across a person working at a tack shop who doesn't do this, will make me a return customer.
> 
> The tack shop where I had my stirrups turned are the worst. Nice people, but if I was to go in today looking for a new saddle. The owner (despite remembering me being in just last week to pick up my newly turned stirrups), wouldn't flinch at asking me why I'm looking at or wanting a new saddle when I was just there last week. She would sell everything that she could to me on the spot. Just terrible.


Yeah... You probably won't get $100 for it. I think my brothers paid $90 for mine? Was a christmas gift, and brand new from a tack store.

As for a tack store that doesn't try to sell you everything, there are actually A LOT I have been to that didn't. The one in Grand Rapids that I go to when I'm home doesn't. Neither does the tiny one in my hometown in Michigan. There is a Dover in Cincinnati on my way home. I actually was just there today, and was on a mission. They asked if I needed help, and I said "nope, I know exactly what I need!" They laughed and said "ok!" Even when we've gone in just to wander around and admire the tack, they don't try to sweet talk me. Unless you're confusing the "can I help you with anything?" with "here, let me show you all the things you should buy right this minute." I always appreciate them asking if I need something, but I've never felt pressure to buy. Even when I've admired saddles way out of my price range :lol: one girl asked if I needed help when I was looking. I said I was just window shopping and day dreaming. She told me she does the same thing. I really can't think of a tack store I've walked into where I felt they were trying to pressure me to buy SOMETHING.

Edited to add: Oops, just saw 6gun kids post. Didn't realize the exchange rate was quite that high. Make sure you're notifying that it's in Canadian dollars when listing it.


----------



## Tazzie

As far as the rain goes, use the indoor!! What I wouldn't give for an indoor. We have had storms all week too, and my only riding area is the section of pasture that has been roped off. So when it rains, I don't get to ride (hubby and kids wouldn't appreciate sitting in the rain while I ride.) If I want an indoor, we have to load her up and haul her down the road to an arena, and pay $20 for 2 hours that I won't even use all of. Use your indoor!!


----------



## Hoofpic

Well Im dissapointed my glasses arent ready today. They must have really busy today. 

Hoping they will cut the lenses tomorrow, jesus the anticipation is killing me! Thats only if the owner is even in on Saturdays (I think he is). Sorry, when I get really excited for something, I can get a bit impatient.

Are lenses harder to cut for huge frames?


----------



## greentree

No, either way the blank lens goes in one side, and the pattern inthe other...


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> No, either way the blank lens goes in one side, and the pattern inthe other...


Oh, sounds like cutting lenses is really easy then.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Ditto @greentree's question-and what does feeding time have to do with being able to ride?


I dont like to take Fly out if the BO is about to feed them. He will only feed them when all horses are in the herd.

But he said he doesn't mind if (because there have been times where I have had to do this), I take her out of the herd while they are still eating, I just see how much hay is left for the herd and I substract 1/4 of it and toss it outside the gate to the field so before I put her back out, I let her finish her meal. 

I know one of my previous trainers would always get upset at me "Never interupt her when she is eating, just leave her alone and let her finish her meal!"


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Dont you have an indoor arena?


Yes we do. I was going to ride Fly yesterday but I spent 30mins just getting her clean. Fields are super muddy and slick from what was at least 20mm of rain that we have gotten the past few days. 

I was wanting to take pics of her soles yesterday but its not a good time when its so muddy out and her feet are so muddy, even after cleaning them out. So I will get pics this weekend.


----------



## Hoofpic

I do have some good news. Even though I spent over 2 hours last Sunday stuffing the gopher holes in Fly's field with rocks (pushed the rocks as far as they would go in the hole, right to the surface), it works! I figured gophers can't dig through rocks if you jam the holes with rocks. So all those rocks in the field were very useful for me. There was still a few holes that I had to be a bit more strategic when stuffing those rocks, but what a huge sigh of relief knowing I don't have to lose sleep at night worrying about covering up those holes over and over again. I was becoming OCD about it.


----------



## greentree

The gophers are just making new holes right next to the old ones...sorry.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> The gophers are just making new holes right next to the old ones...sorry.


But at least this way, I can close down holes they just started before they get super deep. The smaller and newer the hole is, the easier it is for me to close them


----------



## greentree

They come UP from the bottom! They have an entire network of tunnels under the ground. They LIVE underground.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> They come UP from the bottom! They have an entire network of tunnels under the ground. They LIVE underground.


But still it takes them time and I will continue to close them off as they form them. God I hate these pests, wish I could shoot them with a pellet gun.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well my lesson is in a few hours, should be interesting to see just how dirty Fly is from all the rain we have gotten yesterday. 

But the moisture is good and the mud provides good nutrients for their hooves. 

Has anyone here ever trimmed their horse's fetlocks? I don't believe in it since the fetlocks have a very important duty of draining water from the leg. But I saw someone at the barn a couple days ago doing this to their half lease horse and thought it was interesting.


----------



## Hoofpic

I like this article.

Goodbye Saddle...Hello Ground

And once I do experience my first fall, I think it will be a huge weight off my shoulders because I will know what it's like exactly.


----------



## Dehda01

I often clip some of horses' fetlocks because I like the cleaner lines, and less likely to cause scratches for one of my horses. I don't want the fetlock hair to hold moisture and stay damp. I showed for 15 years on the A circuit, and old habits die hard.


----------



## Prairie

Trimming fetlocks is very common for anyone who shows or likes a clean, neat appearing horse. Those who have drafts that don't show will often trim back all the hair around the hoof to prevent scratches.


FYI, moisture and muddy ground are not good for hooves. You want those hooves hard and sure don't want the horse getting scratches from constantly wet fetlocks. 


Those unplanned dismounts are rarely ever the same.....sometimes you just bounce, get up, and mount, other times the rider has to catch their breathe, and in the worst cases, it means an ambulance ride to the ER or morgue.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I often clip some of horses' fetlocks because I like the cleaner lines, and less likely to cause scratches for one of my horses. I don't want the fetlock hair to hold moisture and stay damp. I showed for 15 years on the A circuit, and old habits die hard.


Thanks. So trimming fetlocks is very beneficial? Do shortened fetlocks affect the legs ability to drain the water and prevent it from getting to the back of the hoof?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Trimming fetlocks is very common for anyone who shows or likes a clean, neat appearing horse. Those who have drafts that don't show will often trim back all the hair around the hoof to prevent scratches.
> 
> 
> FYI, moisture and muddy ground are not good for hooves. You want those hooves hard and sure don't want the horse getting scratches from constantly wet fetlocks.
> 
> 
> Those unplanned dismounts are rarely ever the same.....sometimes you just bounce, get up, and mount, other times the rider has to catch their breathe, and in the worst cases, it means an ambulance ride to the ER or morgue.


Flys field was so muddy this morning, I had to put on my waterproof boots. Huge puddles. Mud was so slippery. It still is muddy, but at least no rain today so it started to dry up a bit. 

I always take the extra time to clean Flys feet and legs when its trecherous mud. A lot of work and time consuming but I enjoy it. No hoof, no horse. And because her legs are white, it takes extra care to keep those legs white (especially the hind legs).

Ive never been able to keep her hind legs as white as her front legs.

This is where I wish our barn had a wash rack. When i was at the old barn,I always had it as a goal to have desensitized to water and the hose.


----------



## EliRose

I don't clip ears or whiskers, but in the spring/summer I ALWAYS trim fetlocks. They honestly don't do much for the horse but get muddy . . . And make it more difficult to do a visual check on the legs.


----------



## Hoofpic

Im loving the new glasses. Its amazing how refreshed you feel when you have a new set of eyewear on. Just having new lenses makes everything so clear again.

These are eessentially sunglass frames. But i love them.

It sucks that I have no bridge on my nose so adjusting to make them stay on my nose is always more work for me than the average person. No more stick on nosepads though, Im back to built in ones again!

Im almost scared to wear them at the barn.


----------



## Hoofpic

Does anyone read the Horse & Hound on Facebook? I like it but (could be wrong, are they based in the UK?), they post some of the most disturbing and depressing news.

Horses stabbed in 'cruel and brutal' attack - Horse & Hound

Stuff like this just fills me with rage and makes so incredibly upset. So upset, that it easily ruins my day.

RIP to the gray gelding. You didn't deserve this . I couldn't even read the entire article, it made me so upset and bothered.


----------



## Hoofpic

Had a group lesson today. My partner fell off today. She was wondering what caused it and asked me and I said I wouldnt know because I wasn't paying attention to her until she fell off.

She wants me to send her the video next week so she can view it herself as well. But I know its just the matter of time before I'm next.


----------



## tinaev

Hoofpic said:


> Does anyone read the Horse & Hound on Facebook? I like it but (could be wrong, are they based in the UK?), they post some of the most disturbing and depressing news.
> 
> Horses stabbed in 'cruel and brutal' attack - Horse & Hound
> 
> Stuff like this just fills me with rage and makes so incredibly upset. So upset, that it easily ruins my day.
> 
> RIP to the gray gelding. You didn't deserve this . I couldn't even read the entire article, it made me so upset and bothered.


When I first got horses I subscribed to Equus just for fun. The first couple of issues I got were good stories and information but from then on out it always seemed like some kind of terrible, sad story or articles on various diseases and ways your horse could die. I'd close the magazine and either be sad or start Googling horrible diseases. I did not renew my subscription!


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Had a group lesson today. My partner fell off today. She was wondering what caused it and asked me and I said I wouldnt know because I wasn't paying attention to her until she fell off.
> 
> She wants me to send her the video next week so she can view it herself as well. But I know its just the matter of time before I'm next.
> 
> http://youtu.be/JIVrVnI0uE0


It looks like the horse didn't want to make the turn & was made to it so did a protest buck which pushed the rider onto the shoulder then plop.


----------



## greentree

Your partner's balance is so far off that i am surprised she stayed on as long as she did. She kicked that pony in the side and he kicked back! 
He was contemplated throughing his head down, and ditching her a couple of other times.

You did a fantastic job of taking care of Fly. Good work on sitting the little spook that she did at this end of the arena, too!


----------



## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> When I first got horses I subscribed to Equus just for fun. The first couple of issues I got were good stories and information but from then on out it always seemed like some kind of terrible, sad story or articles on various diseases and ways your horse could die. I'd close the magazine and either be sad or start Googling horrible diseases. I did not renew my subscription!


And its so sad too! This is exactly THE reason on why I never watch the news. I know its bad, because I'm not up to date with current events around the world, but I tell everyone (who asks me) the same verbatim every time. I don't see that negative garbage in my life.

I'm getting that feeling with the Horse & Hound as well. It seems (are they based out of the UK?), that every event they post is about a horse dying or getting hit by a car, or some barn fire. Its depressing. They do still have good articles to read but most of their stuff is about horses dying. But I feel I should read these articles to remember those horses who have fallen. But I get so upset over it.

I'm just as bothered as the Kill Pen Rescue facebook pages that I'm subbed to. Where basically the owners of the page will post up horses that have arrived at their kill pen and are sharing their pages to get people to save these horses. Which is great, because they are at least giving these horses online public exposure and people will read, share and most of these horses will be saved. But not all.

Just the past week, I came across a couple mama mares and their colts (no older than 6 months), at the pen because their owners just decided one day that they no longer want them (even though the mamas just foaled!), and drop them off at the kill pen. GRRR! This makes me so upset! How can people be so cruel. These people do not deserve to own a horse. They should be banned from going anywhere near them. So I've been visiting their page every day to see if these mamas and their babies have been saved yet. I wish I could reach out and save them and re home them.

You see, this is why when the previous owner sold Fly to me, she said that she will only sell her to me, if I can promise her that if things change in my life where I can no longer take care of Fly, that I cannot send her to auction. She has been in contact with Fly's original breeder over in BC and the breeder said that she will take Fly back if things come up. I told her that she has my promise that I would never send Fly to auction and I bet my life with those words. I would never ever do such a thing to any animal. It's just so wrong. How can these people live with themselves? It's even in our sales contract for Fly. I cannot send her to auction.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> It looks like the horse didn't want to make the turn & was made to it so did a protest buck which pushed the rider onto the shoulder then plop.


Good analysis. I didn't notice him bucking at the time but when watching the video I saw it. Wasn't a huge buck but just a little one. Enough to tell the rider that he didn't want to turn.

That paint gelding (I've gotten to know his personality a bit over the past month), has quite the personality. He needs strong leadership because he will always test. 

He is not much older than Fly (he is 7), but him and Fly have gotten familiar with each other over the past 4-5 weeks or so in my weekly group lesson with this rider.

Its a great experience for me because there will be times where Fly will be too focused on him and will want to follow him. So I work on gettting her focus back on me, (which my trainer taught me to do a circle). So if Fly tries to cut across a turn in the arena without going into the corners, just because she wants to follow the other paint. I make her do a 15 or 20m circle right away.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Your partner's balance is so far off that i am surprised she stayed on as long as she did. She kicked that pony in the side and he kicked back!
> He was contemplated throughing his head down, and ditching her a couple of other times.
> 
> You did a fantastic job of taking care of Fly. Good work on sitting the little spook that she did at this end of the arena, too!


Oh I didn't notice him thinking about throwing his head down. You have a really good eye. I did notice a sudden burst of acceleration from him just before he bucked. I'm surprised my partner stayed on as long as she did, but I think she handled it well. 

She didn't want to re ask for the canter afterwards (because the trainer said that they can't leave things off on that note, it was pretty much the end of the lesson), but she made her do it. Mostly because, the trainer doesn't want this paint gelding to think its okay to buck riders off and not be reprimanded. 

Thanks, I think I handled that spook well from Fly. It's not the first time that she has shifted her weight over a bit from a sudden spook. But I just carried on as if nothing happened. I don't make it an issue, I let her know that what's bothering her doesn't phase me at all. 

Just like when I walked her by the mini donkeys again yesterday. She is noticeably more relaxed when around these donkeys than 2 weeks ago. Before, she would always have her ears up and eyes locked on them for every second that they're in her sight. But now, she at least will feel safe enough to turn her head, take her eyes off them, look around a bit. And I feel that she is picking that up from me because I don't show any signs of the donkeys making me feel uncomfortable or worried at all.

When the paint gelding bucked the rider off and started coming towards us. I made sure that he still stayed a good horsey distance from Fly. The last thing I wanted is for Fly to kick out at him. He was getting a bit close, and that's why I got Fly to trot for a bit to get our safe distance back.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Good analysis. I didn't notice him bucking at the time but when watching the video I saw it. Wasn't a huge buck but just a little one. Enough to tell the rider that he didn't want to turn.
> 
> That paint gelding (I've gotten to know his personality a bit over the past month), has quite the personality. He needs strong leadership because he will always test.
> 
> He is not much older than Fly (he is 7), but him and Fly have gotten familiar with each other over the past 4-5 weeks or so in my weekly group lesson with this rider.
> 
> Its a great experience for me because there will be times where Fly will be too focused on him and will want to follow him. So I work on gettting her focus back on me, (which my trainer taught me to do a circle). So if Fly tries to cut across a turn in the arena without going into the corners, just because she wants to follow the other paint. I make her do a 15 or 20m circle right away.


I watched the video again after Greentree made a comment on you because I didn't watch you the first time. But she is right! You did a good job not only riding the spook but staying away from the 'happenings' too. You look straight & relaxed, much improved.
Your lesson buddy really shouldn't be cantering unless on a lunge line but maybe the fall if just what she needed to get her act together. Glad she wasn't hurt. Did she get back on?


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I was going to say when I watched it her balance looked shoddy from the beginning. Is that her first time cantering?


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I was going to say when I watched it her balance looked shoddy from the beginning. Is that her first time cantering?


No shes been cantering for years. Shes going into her 5th year riding.


----------



## Prairie

"
I'm just as bothered as the Kill Pen Rescue facebook pages that I'm subbed to. Where basically the owners of the page will post up horses that have arrived at their kill pen and are sharing their pages to get people to save these horses. Which is great, because they are at least giving these horses online public exposure and people will read, share and most of these horses will be saved. But not all."


This is just a buyer's method of playing the heart strings of clueless people who don't realize that by paying the high price being asked, they are lining the pockets of the kill buyer so he can buy more horses and sell those for high prices too----in other words, those posts are a gimmick. Also, the kill pens won't take pregnant mares or foals. The reality is there are too many horses for the number of homes and being killed by a bolt gun is much less traumatizing and painful than slowly starving to death. If you truly want to rescue a horse, either go to a legitimate rescue or buy horses who are being auctioned off that are going far below their value.


You did a good job with Fly during all the commotion.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> "
> This is just a buyer's method of playing the heart strings of clueless people who don't realize that by paying the high price being asked, they are lining the pockets of the kill buyer so he can buy more horses and sell those for high prices too----in other words, those posts are a gimmick. Also, the kill pens won't take pregnant mares or foals. The reality is there are too many horses for the number of homes and being killed by a bolt gun is much less traumatizing and painful than slowly starving to death. If you truly want to rescue a horse, either go to a legitimate rescue or buy horses who are being auctioned off that are going far below their value.


Oh. But the mamas and their babies that they have, where do you think they got them from? So people aren't just dropping off their horses (that they no longer want) at the kill pens?



> You did a good job with Fly during all the commotion.


Thanks. I feel I did well too.

I do have some bad news (but now is a good time for me to work on what Ive been working on with my trainer on my own). This upcoming week is kids day camps (pretty much riding clinic for kids), so my trainer is only doing lessons on Saturday (which I have another group lesson with the same partner from this weekend). But then my trainer is on vac for the next 3 weeks, so obviously I will need to do, what I need to do with Fly to keep riding her and keep both her and I moving forward. Then when my trainer gets back, its our summer riding clinic. Boy time flies!


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Of course they are dropping them off.. Foals and pregnant mares are more likely to be saved then any regular horse because people are more inclined to buy them. 

Don't judge people dropping horses off at the kill pens sometimes people are doing it for the wrong reasons but I'd rather a horse be put down quickly then be left in a paddock to starve to death which is slow and painful as their organs shut down.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Of course they are dropping them off.. Foals and pregnant mares are more likely to be saved then any regular horse because people are more inclined to buy them.
> 
> Don't judge people dropping horses off at the kill pens sometimes people are doing it for the wrong reasons but I'd rather a horse be put down quickly then be left in a paddock to starve to death which is slow and painful as their organs shut down.


I'm for putting them down quickly as well, but when they ship them on a truck, these poor horses are suffering inhuman terrible deaths. They kill them like they do pigs. :sad:


----------



## Hoofpic

Its been a full day now on my new glasses and have to say that I love them! I'm in love with transitions. I was a bit nervous going into it but it was a risk I gladly took. Love no longer having to wear two sets of glasses. I'm still getting used to the new style because they are big but I love them and love how big they are. I can see much more out of these due to the larger lenses. 

I was able to give it a full test early this morning as I ran into Walmart. They go dark so fast, but take longer to go back to clear. It's too bad there is no transitions that can go back to clear as quickly as it takes to get dark, but I understand the technology is not there yet. Yes it may look a bit silly when I walk into stores with my lenses still dark and taking a few minutes to go back to clear, but I dont care what others think. It's all about me liking them and being happy with them.

At the barn, I loved them! It took a few minutes for me to get used to them inside the barn (because our barn is so dark), but I'm used to it. I love the UV protection when outside. I should have gotten these much sooner. Like a year ago. I went waaaaay too long on my old lenses - 3 years and 2 months is just too long. 

I heard that the transition effect (in terms of how quickly it takes to get dark, and vice versa) will fade and take longer to transition in about 2 years. So I will gauge mine over time, but seeing how these lenses are pretty cheap, it wouldnt be a bad idea for me to replace them every year.

I just have to be sure I take very good care of these new frames. Follow what the owner said (to rinse them under cold water daily, it will help maintain the frames and lens over time), and not just to spray it with cleaning solution to wipe the lenses. Because I will admit, over the past couple years, I got really lazy on my previous pair in terms of washing them. I never once ran them under cold water and they were filthy. Especially with these in the barn environment, I will have to take the extra time to care for them if I want them to maintain its condition. Still getting used to them though since this is a much different feeling set, totally unlike anything Ive owned before.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I watched the video again after Greentree made a comment on you because I didn't watch you the first time. But she is right! You did a good job not only riding the spook but staying away from the 'happenings' too. You look straight & relaxed, much improved.
> Your lesson buddy really shouldn't be cantering unless on a lunge line but maybe the fall if just what she needed to get her act together. Glad she wasn't hurt. Did she get back on?


Thanks. I'm much more aware of my surroundings now and how to react to them, and also quickly. 

Why don't you think my partner should be cantering unless on a line? I will admit, she does lope a lot as she really enjoys it. She was just a bit surprised about the fall. She said it was her 2nd time falling in the 5 years that she has been riding. Now, when I say that she has been riding for 5 years, she was a very casual rider as she had huge gaps of time inbetween without riding. My trainer said the both of us are on the same riding level, otherwise she wouldn't pair me with another rider who is too advanced for me.

Yes she got back on but she didn't want to. My trainer told her she had to, because she didn't want to leave things on that note and the paint gelding thinking he can just buck off his rider to get out of work.


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I'm much more aware of my surroundings now and how to react to them, and also quickly.
> 
> Why don't you think my partner should be cantering unless on a line? I will admit, she does lope a lot as she really enjoys it. She was just a bit surprised about the fall. She said it was her 2nd time falling in the 5 years that she has been riding. Now, when I say that she has been riding for 5 years, she was a very casual rider as she had huge gaps of time inbetween without riding. My trainer said the both of us are on the same riding level, otherwise she wouldn't pair me with another rider who is too advanced for me.
> 
> Yes she got back on but she didn't want to. My trainer told her she had to, because she didn't want to leave things on that note and the paint gelding thinking he can just buck off his rider to get out of work.


She is quite unbalanced.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> She is quite unbalanced.


I see it now after watching the video again.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> I see it now after watching the video again.


Yeah especially since you said she's been cantering for 5 years... that is no bueno if her balance hasn't improved since then.


----------



## Hoofpic

Thank god the Calgary Stampede is over. From what I've heard so far, no horses died. I guess we caught a break this year, because every year horses die. I was really upset about last years when I heard it. This is the garbage that is why I will never go to the Stampede and support this crap.










Pushing 3 and 4 year old thoroughbreds well beyond their limits and racing them in super harsh bits. What do they use? Spade bits? And what the heck is that thing around their necks? I have no respect for anyone in the chuckwagon industry. I have nothing against racetrack racing, not this garbage.

My trainer went 3 times this week because she helps out every year at a booth for a committee. She brings her gelding down. And Im well aware of the horse exposure and all the horsey fun at the grounds. I would have love to check out the extreme cowboy challenge but, no way am I giving the Stampede association a penny. Just like how my BO didn't go to the Mane Event this year because Parelli was there.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thank god the Calgary Stampede is over. From what I've heard so far, no horses died. I guess we caught a break this year, because every year horses die. I was really upset about last years when I heard it. This is the garbage that is why I will never go to the Stampede and support this crap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pushing 3 and 4 year old thoroughbreds well beyond their limits and racing them in super harsh bits. What do they use? Spade bits? And what the heck is that thing around their necks? I have no respect for anyone in the chuckwagon industry. I have nothing against racetrack racing, not this garbage.
> 
> My trainer went 3 times this week because she helps out every year at a booth for a committee. She brings her gelding down. And Im well aware of the horse exposure and all the horsey fun at the grounds. I would have love to check out the extreme cowboy challenge but, no way am I giving the Stampede association a penny. Just like how my BO didn't go to the Mane Event this year because Parelli was there.


I'm not sure how you know if they use spade bits for chuck wagon races, which I highly doubt they do. 
The thing on their shoulders is a collar for pulling, technically they push against it to pull. How did you think a horse would pull a wagon or whatever?

ETA: Getting a bit off track from your Fly journal? I guess it's your right.


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## Rainaisabelle

Let's not go into these things as it never ends well especially thoroughbreds and racing. This thread is about your riding and fly..


----------



## greentree

Gosh, hoofpic, I am kind of insulted that you think my sport is cruel.....I have to ask.....do you believe EVERYTHING you read???


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## sarahfromsc

What I was taught 100 years ago concerning a fallen rider in a group lesson is to stop riding. Make sure the fallen rider isn't injured; if injured get off the horse so you can assist.

Maybe that isn't the case in these modern "do what I want to do" times we live in.

In your case hoofpic, the rider wasn't injured just needed time to come to gripes with the fall, but you should have kept your circles at the opposite end of the arena away from the fallen rider. Give the the rider space to regain their composure.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I'm not sure how you know if they use spade bits for chuck wagon races, which I highly doubt they do.
> The thing on their shoulders is a collar for pulling, technically they push against it to pull. How did you think a horse would pull a wagon or whatever?
> 
> ETA: Getting a bit off track from your Fly journal? I guess it's your right.


Sorry dont mean to get OT. I just wanted to vent a little bit thats all.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Gosh, hoofpic, I am kind of insulted that you think my sport is cruel.....I have to ask.....do you believe EVERYTHING you read???


I dont believe everything I read, but the proof is in the pudding with all the accidents and deaths here over the years.Those young horses are pushed well beyond their limits and its a matter of inchs between each horse for wagons and horses to wipe out and lose footing. 

This is your sport? Sorry, I didnt meant to offend anyone. Just displaying my thoughts. I'm okay with racing, but just found chuckwagon to be too much. At least the racing done here. Maybe its not so bad elsewhere?


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> What I was taught 100 years ago concerning a fallen rider in a group lesson is to stop riding. Make sure the fallen rider isn't injured; if injured get off the horse so you can assist.
> 
> Maybe that isn't the case in these modern "do what I want to do" times we live in.
> 
> In your case hoofpic, the rider wasn't injured just needed time to come to gripes with the fall, but you should have kept your circles at the opposite end of the arena away from the fallen rider. Give the the rider space to regain their composure.


Thanks. I gave the extra rider her space. Once she was back up, I felt I continue on but still keep my distance doing what I was doing.

The reason why I didnt stop riding altogether when she fell, was because the trainer was already there and nearby. Otherwise I would have stopped riding to see her.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Pushing 3 and 4 year old thoroughbreds well beyond their limits and racing them in super harsh bits. What do they use? Spade bits? And what the heck is that thing around their necks? I have no respect for anyone in the chuckwagon industry. I have nothing against racetrack racing, not this garbage.
> .


 ok this is the kind of thing you say that gets everyone riled up, you obviously know nothing about driving horses, yet you condemn anyway. what do you know about the limits of a 4 year old thoroughbred? If you knew anything, you would know the "thing" around their neck, is a pulling collar. The thing that allows driving horses to pull (well technically they push). Do you get all bent out of shape watching the Budweiser Clydesdales? They all wear one.
As for a spade bit, would you know one if you saw one? They aren't used in driving, and they aren't inherently harsh. They look intimidating, and _can _be harsh. But a snaffle is harsh in the wrong hands.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I gave the extra rider her space. Once she was back up, I felt I continue on but still keep my distance doing what I was doing.
> 
> The reason why I didnt stop riding altogether when she fell, was because the trainer was already there and nearby. Otherwise I would have stopped riding to see her.


 How did you give her space?

I repeat, you should have stayed on the opposite side of the arena away from the rider. No need to go riding around a down rider.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, a word of caution if you want to get along in the equestrian world----until you have much more knowledge and understanding of any discipline it's wise to keep an open mind and not make judgment calls that insult those who participate in it.


I do agree that Hoofpic should have halted Fly and waited quietly at the far end of the arena until the trainer indicated for him to continue riding, at least he didn't add to the stress. Even as an EMT, when a rider is unhorsed, I'll wait off to the side for indication that the rider needs medical help if it's not immediately obvious.


----------



## Tazzie

Wow, I agree with the others. If she's been riding for 5 years, she should be a lot more balanced at the canter. I kind of figured she would have fallen off WAY before that mini buck. She needs a lunge line lesson in order to gain her balance. Perhaps some no stirrup work too.

I agree with Sarah though. I was always, always taught that when a rider falls, you STOP until the rider is up and the horse is caught. I stay aboard unless my horse starts to get anxious. If I feel I could lose control and have a second horse loose, I hop off and grab hold of the reins. But I've never seen anyone continue trotting around when a rider has fallen and a horse is loose.

As for the horse slaughter, it's not like pigs. Pigs (typically) get an electrical shot through the shoulders to knock them out. Horses have the captive bolt, much like cattle. When done correctly it's 100% effective. My degree is animal science and I've taken meat science classes which included taking a cow, a sheep and a pig from alive to specific cuts of meat in that time frame, so I'm not just going by hearsay or reading stuff online.

Others have already spoken up about the pulling collars. I've never seen chuck wagon races in person, so I can't judge. But jumping to conclusions on bits would be like saying every jumper uses an elevator bit, or a twisted wire, and that every barrel racer uses some heavily shanked contraption. My happy mouth copper roller on Izzie could mean a ripped up mouth for another horse in the wrong hands. Every bit can be cruel when used incorrectly.

I learned long, long ago not to judge other disciplines. Like, I could never ride western pleasure, but I will watch my friends who show it (and admire all the bling they get to wear :lol. Saddle seat is a bit too "out of control" (it really isn't, but it's a weird on the edge of being in control concept that scares me) for me, but I love watching it and learned to appreciate a horse that goes well versus one that is in it because it can't do anything else (one horse we know is only in country english pleasure because he supposedly bucks like a mule if his head is allowed to go lower; barn refuses to train him through it). Horses die a lot in other disciplines too. Rotational falls in Cross Country, a bad fall in barrels, a broken leg on the track, a Dressage horse that has had enough and flips over, etc. There is awful instances in every single discipline out there, but that doesn't mean we should condemn each and every sport for the deaths or the poor riding. It's fine to not watch it. And it's fine to not like it. But saying it is an awful sport overall and publicly bashing it? That isn't cool. The world would be extremely boring if we all just wanted to trail ride, do liberty and do the cowboy challenge, wouldn't it? The fun with horses is that there are SO many disciplines we can choose from that we can all wholeheartedly love to do. People get riled up when others bash their sport. And I get it. I see SO many people complain about "excessive" contact in Dressage, and basically saying every dressage rider just uses Rollkur and doesn't actually try to get their horse working properly. But that isn't true any more than the people doing the chuck wagon races don't care for their horses or the risks they are taking. For all you know, those horses practically harness themselves and willing give absolutely everything they have into pulling those wagons because it's what they truly love to do.

I know it's your journal, and I'm not trying to come across in a mean, condescending way (I never intend to), but you have a lot of supporters here from a wide range of disciplines. People that are here and wanting to help you and wanting you to succeed. When you make comments like the above regarding this specific discipline, and scoffing at the pulling collars, all you will do is have some of these people with an incredible wealth of knowledge totally leave this thread and dismiss any idea of helping you further. Just try to remember that. You could have phrased it as "Does anyone know about chuck wagon races? What kind of bits do they use? The training regimen? Has anyone seen one live?" And your answers would have been SO different!


----------



## sarahfromsc

Another issues with the video of the group lesson is the posters are critiquing a rider that has not asked to be critiqued.

Whether is is against forum rules, I do not know. But I do believe is is against common sense rules. In others words, would hoofpic want to be critique on a forum by strangers when he did not ask for it?


----------



## natisha

sarahfromsc said:


> Another issues with the video of the group lesson is the posters are critiquing a rider that has not asked to be critiqued.
> 
> Whether is is against forum rules, I do not know. But I do believe is is against common sense rules. In others words, would hoofpic want to be critique on a forum by strangers when he did not ask for it?


Hoofpic did ask if we knew why she fell.


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## sarahfromsc

It is splitting hairs for sure. I went and read the rules more thoroughly, and it is borderline since she didn't ask for why she fell.

Like I said splitting hairs. But something he should think on when posting videos of other riders.


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## Prairie

natisha said:


> Hoofpic did ask if we knew why she fell.



I think the issue is that the rider who fell didn't ask for a critique. If Hoofpic wanted to know why she fell, he should have asked his trainer in private, not posted the video on a public forum.


----------



## jenkat86

I'm not going to get "fired up" about the chuckwagon races...but I thought you might like to know that in 2010 I went to the Calgary Stampede and saw two horses get euthanized, one of which was during the chuckwagon race. One of the outriders horses broke its leg while racing. The rider immediately jumped off the horse and led it to the grass and never left it's side. You could see the rider crying. The horse just kept wanting to run the entire time. 

What you have to understand is that these horses LIVE for that. They truly love it. And the riders love and respect their horses.

Oh and back to the video of the girl falling...I thought I heard the trainer say after she hit the ground, "You're first fall!" I could be wrong though...


----------



## greentree

jenkat86 said:


> I'm not going to get "fired up" about the chuckwagon races...but I thought you might like to know that in 2010 I went to the Calgary Stampede and saw two horses get euthanized, one of which was during the chuckwagon race. One of the outriders horses broke its leg while racing. The rider immediately jumped off the horse and led it to the grass and never left it's side. You could see the rider crying. The horse just kept wanting to run the entire time.
> 
> What you have to understand is that these horses LIVE for that. They truly love it. And the riders love and respect their horses.
> 
> Oh and back to the video of the girl falling...I thought I heard the trainer say after she hit the ground, "You're first fall!" I could be wrong though...


When we have been around horse activities long enough to have a true perspective, we realize that horses die at any time, just like people. When the time is up, it is up. Western pleasure horses die at shows. Horses die on trail rides. 


Also back to the girl falling.....it illustrates what we have been trying to get across to Hoofpic for some time now.... There is no certain time line for being an "expert", or " knowing how to ride". Just because a person has carried on this activity for a good amount of time does NOT mean that they "know how", or are even doing the activity correctly!

There is a saying....Practice does NOT make perfect...Perfect practice makes perfect.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> ok this is the kind of thing you say that gets everyone riled up, you obviously know nothing about driving horses, yet you condemn anyway. what do you know about the limits of a 4 year old thoroughbred? If you knew anything, you would know the "thing" around their neck, is a pulling collar. The thing that allows driving horses to pull (well technically they push). Do you get all bent out of shape watching the Budweiser Clydesdale? They all wear one.
> As for a spade bit, would you know one if you saw one? They aren't used in driving, and they aren't inherently harsh. They look intimidating, and _can _be harsh. But a snaffle is harsh in the wrong hands.


But many of these horses aren't even fully grown and developed yet. Yet, they are trained to pull so much weight at such a fast speed, over and over again. I can't remember where I read it, but there was an article that I read saying how these horses are incredibly stressed, fatigued and at the end are usually sent to slaughter. (I think this was two articles that I read). That is not a way to treat any horse, ever. That is pure animal abuse and why I will never support such a horrific event. 

Why put them in so much danger in the first place? I don't get it and I don't understand the appeal of it from a spectator standpoint. Oh and the rodeo, don't even get me started on that. What in gods name does a horse have a purpose served in a mindless rodeo involving bulls?

I'm completely fine with Clydesdale's pulling people on wagons around town. That is a much different scenario. They're not going 90km/h and if I'm not mistaken Clydesdale's have more weight to them and are usually fully grown when you see them pulling wagons.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> How did you give her space?
> 
> I repeat, you should have stayed on the opposite side of the arena away from the rider. No need to go riding around a down rider.


Okay, now I know to stay at the opposite end of the arena until the rider is back up. Thanks.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, a word of caution if you want to get along in the equestrian world----until you have much more knowledge and understanding of any discipline it's wise to keep an open mind and not make judgment calls that insult those who participate in it.
> 
> 
> I do agree that Hoofpic should have halted Fly and waited quietly at the far end of the arena until the trainer indicated for him to continue riding, at least he didn't add to the stress. Even as an EMT, when a rider is unhorsed, I'll wait off to the side for indication that the rider needs medical help if it's not immediately obvious.


I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm just expressing my opinion on chuckwagon racing. I apologize if I offended anyone but I didn't see it coming, otherwise I wouldn't have done it.


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> But many of these horses aren't even fully grown and developed yet. Yet, they are trained to pull so much weight at such a fast speed, over and over again. I can't remember where I read it, but there was an article that I read saying how these horses are incredibly stressed, fatigued and at the end are usually sent to slaughter. (I think this was two articles that I read). That is not a way to treat any horse, ever. That is pure animal abuse and why I will never support such a horrific event.
> 
> Why put them in so much danger in the first place? I don't get it and I don't understand the appeal of it from a spectator standpoint. Oh and the rodeo, don't even get me started on that. What in gods name does a horse have a purpose served in a mindless rodeo involving bulls?
> 
> I'm completely fine with Clydesdale's pulling people on wagons around town. That is a much different scenario. They're not going 90km/h and if I'm not mistaken Clydesdale's have more weight to them and are usually fully grown when you see them pulling wagons.


You've been watching/reading too much SHARK.

Why do we ride in the first place? Seriously, you need to gain a real education before you stand on your soap box.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> I think the issue is that the rider who fell didn't ask for a critique. If Hoofpic wanted to know why she fell, he should have asked his trainer in private, not posted the video on a public forum.


No the other rider was okay with it. After last lesson, she wanted me to try to find out what happened and why she fell. I said I wouldn't know why but I could try to find out for her and she said that is fine.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> You've been watching/reading too much SHARK.
> 
> Why do we ride in the first place? Seriously, you need to gain a real education before you stand on your soap box.


I just think there is a fine line that puts horses in too much unnecessary danger. It just makes no sense to me. The risk's of crashes to occur are incredibly high and the room for error is incredibly slim. One crash can kill multiple horses.

Maybe tweek the event to make it safer for the horses?

This I am fine with and actually would love to see in person.






Here is a good article I read awhile back.

https://forcechange.com/26877/ban-dangerous-chuckwagon-races-at-calgary-stampede/


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> But many of these horses aren't even fully grown and developed yet. Yet, they are trained to pull so much weight at such a fast speed, over and over again. I can't remember where I read it, but there was an article that I read saying how these horses are incredibly stressed, fatigued and at the end are usually sent to slaughter. (I think this was two articles that I read). That is not a way to treat any horse, ever. That is pure animal abuse and why I will never support such a horrific event.
> 
> Why put them in so much danger in the first place? I don't get it and I don't understand the appeal of it from a spectator standpoint. Oh and the rodeo, don't even get me started on that. What in gods name does a horse have a purpose served in a mindless rodeo involving bulls?
> 
> I'm completely fine with Clydesdale's pulling people on wagons around town. That is a much different scenario. They're not going 90km/h and if I'm not mistaken Clydesdale's have more weight to them and are usually fully grown when you see them pulling wagons.



Hoofpic, once again you don't have the knowledge and experience to make a judgment based on something you read---remember the farrier article you thought was so good and other told you it was worthless? You didn't even have the knowledge to recognize a pulling/work collar.


Thoroughbreds are bred to run. It is the writer's opinion that the horses are stressed and fatigued by the race, but that writer isn't a vet or race horse trainer who can assess this. If we waited till horses were fully grown and matured, most wouldn't be trained until they're almost 7 yo. Most competitors have a succession of horses over the year as their horses age or have reached their highest potential, but that does not mean the horses are sent to slaughter----a good driving horse brings a pretty good price, so would be sold to someone who may want to compete in other types of driving competitions.


Draft breeds are often started pulling a lighter wagon or cart when they are long yearlings, so about 18 months old. There is also an outcry about draft horses being used to pull tourists around in cities. Should we forget about those hard working breeds who were once the backbone of farming, transportation, and delivering goods?


Have you ever been to a rodeo and watched the action? There are clowns to divert the bull if he threatens to charge and the horses and riders are in the arena as a backup to protect the downed rider. I've never seen a rodeo bull even threaten a horse---bulls are trained to look for the opening that leads back to their pen where they are fed, watered, and left alone.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I'm not going to get "fired up" about the chuckwagon races...but I thought you might like to know that in 2010 I went to the Calgary Stampede and saw two horses get euthanized, one of which was during the chuckwagon race. One of the outriders horses broke its leg while racing. The rider immediately jumped off the horse and led it to the grass and never left it's side. You could see the rider crying. The horse just kept wanting to run the entire time.
> 
> What you have to understand is that these horses LIVE for that. They truly love it. And the riders love and respect their horses.
> 
> Oh and back to the video of the girl falling...I thought I heard the trainer say after she hit the ground, "You're first fall!" I could be wrong though...


I have no doubt that the riders at the Stampede love their race horses. But if they love them enough, (as much as they say), they wouldn't put their horses in such risk of accidents and getting killed. There are other forms of racing that are entertaining to people but a lot safer. 

For instance, my trainer on this past Canada Day went to the big annual horse racing event out in Millarville for the day. I'm fine with that event.

There is a reason why there are so many online petitions for banning the races at the Stampede. It's been going on for years but I know after last year's, with 3 horses dying, committees have really amped it up.

If they want to keep the races, modify it so it is a lot safer for the horses. I understand that deaths will happen in every event, but 65 horses in what the past 20 years at the Calgary Stampede? And that doesn't even include the bulls and calves that die in the rodeo.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> No the other rider was okay with it. After last lesson, she wanted me to try to find out what happened and why she fell. I said I wouldn't know why but I could try to find out for her and she said that is fine.



You should have just told her to ask the trainer---that's what you both pay her for!


----------



## EliRose

That's not a good article, that's a petition. On a site called "Force Change." Really? The bias and lack of any reason should be obvious.

And I can't see the name of that video, but that sure doesn't look like a race. That's just a rail class.


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I have no doubt that the riders at the Stampede love their race horses. But if they love them enough, (as much as they say), they wouldn't put their horses in such risk of accidents and getting killed. There are other forms of racing that are entertaining to people but a lot safer.
> 
> For instance, my trainer on this past Canada Day went to the big annual horse racing event out in Millarville for the day. I'm fine with that event.
> 
> There is a reason why there are so many online petitions for banning the races at the Stampede. It's been going on for years but I know after last year's, with 3 horses dying, committees have really amped it up.
> 
> If they want to keep the races, modify it so it is a lot safer for the horses. I understand that deaths will happen in every event, but 65 horses in what the past 20 years at the Calgary Stampede? And that doesn't even include the bulls and calves that die in the rodeo.


Uh, I'm a race person and I can tell you that racing in general is not safer, and the horses are also very young. As I type I'm cold hosing a 4-year-old filly who's made well over $100k and just got a screw put in her ankle from a training injury. If you came across some of the anti-racing sites you'd probably have a panic attack.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I have no doubt that the riders at the Stampede love their race horses. But if they love them enough, (as much as they say), they wouldn't put their horses in such risk of accidents and getting killed. There are other forms of racing that are entertaining to people but a lot safer.
> 
> For instance, my trainer on this past Canada Day went to the big annual horse racing event out in Millarville for the day. I'm fine with that event.
> 
> There is a reason why there are so many online petitions for banning the races at the Stampede. It's been going on for years but I know after last year's, with 3 horses dying, committees have really amped it up.
> 
> If they want to keep the races, modify it so it is a lot safer for the horses. I understand that deaths will happen in every event, but 65 horses in what the past 20 years at the Calgary Stampede? And that doesn't even include the bulls and calves that die in the rodeo.


The horses love their jobs too.

Horses are livestock animals. They were designed to have a job. A hard job at that. By making them backyard pets that we putz around on here and there, we do a disservice to them. 

Every discipline/event whatever you want to call it has deaths. The Calgary Stampede is a highly publicized event, which is exactly WHY you hear about it. 

What these people are doing with their horse athletes is no better or worse than a horse owner lightly working their overweight horse in poor fitting tack. But you don't ever hear anyone get up in arms about that. 

These horses at the stampede live better than you or I. They get the best of the best in EVERYTHING. 

I said I wouldn't get fired up...so this is my last post on this topic for today :wink:


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Wow, I agree with the others. If she's been riding for 5 years, she should be a lot more balanced at the canter. I kind of figured she would have fallen off WAY before that mini buck. She needs a lunge line lesson in order to gain her balance. Perhaps some no stirrup work too.


True but I think she said she has been riding 5 years on and off and when she started, she only rode once a week.



> I agree with Sarah though. I was always, always taught that when a rider falls, you STOP until the rider is up and the horse is caught. I stay aboard unless my horse starts to get anxious. If I feel I could lose control and have a second horse loose, I hop off and grab hold of the reins. But I've never seen anyone continue trotting around when a rider has fallen and a horse is loose.


I had Fly at a walk when the rider fell off and continued to have her walk. The only reason why I had her trot for a few steps was because the paint gelding was following us and wanted to make sure we maintained our distance. But you are right, next time this happens, I stay at the opposite end of the arena.



> As for the horse slaughter, it's not like pigs. Pigs (typically) get an electrical shot through the shoulders to knock them out. Horses have the captive bolt, much like cattle. When done correctly it's 100% effective. My degree is animal science and I've taken meat science classes which included taking a cow, a sheep and a pig from alive to specific cuts of meat in that time frame, so I'm not just going by hearsay or reading stuff online.


I'm not denying what you are saying is true, I believe it is. But I know for a fact that some slaughter houses don't do it that way. At least here in Alberta or some parts in other parts of the world. Go on youtube and you will find endless videos of horses being hung while still alive or killed without a bolt gun. I won't get too much into detail because this whole topic of auctions/kill buyers/slaughter really bothers me like you wouldn't believe, and I will never watch any of the youtube videos. I will never respect anyone who works in that side of the industry.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for using a bolt gun to a horse versus having them starve to death. But the real cause is from people over breeding. Stop the over breeding, and we won't have this problem to begin with. But obviously, that is much easier said than done. And honestly, I don't even know if it's even possible to stop this problem from the root of the cause.



> Others have already spoken up about the pulling collars. I've never seen chuck wagon races in person, so I can't judge. But jumping to conclusions on bits would be like saying every jumper uses an elevator bit, or a twisted wire, and that every barrel racer uses some heavily shanked contraption. My happy mouth copper roller on Izzie could mean a ripped up mouth for another horse in the wrong hands. Every bit can be cruel when used incorrectly.





> I learned long, long ago not to judge other disciplines. Like, I could never ride western pleasure, but I will watch my friends who show it (and admire all the bling they get to wear :lol. Saddle seat is a bit too "out of control" (it really isn't, but it's a weird on the edge of being in control concept that scares me) for me, but I love watching it and learned to appreciate a horse that goes well versus one that is in it because it can't do anything else (one horse we know is only in country english pleasure because he supposedly bucks like a mule if his head is allowed to go lower; barn refuses to train him through it). Horses die a lot in other disciplines too. Rotational falls in Cross Country, a bad fall in barrels, a broken leg on the track, a Dressage horse that has had enough and flips over, etc. There is awful instances in every single discipline out there, but that doesn't mean we should condemn each and every sport for the deaths or the poor riding. It's fine to not watch it. And it's fine to not like it. But saying it is an awful sport overall and publicly bashing it? That isn't cool. The world would be extremely boring if we all just wanted to trail ride, do liberty and do the cowboy challenge, wouldn't it? The fun with horses is that there are SO many disciplines we can choose from that we can all wholeheartedly love to do. People get riled up when others bash their sport. And I get it. I see SO many people complain about "excessive" contact in Dressage, and basically saying every dressage rider just uses Rollkur and doesn't actually try to get their horse working properly. But that isn't true any more than the people doing the chuck wagon races don't care for their horses or the risks they are taking. For all you know, those horses practically harness themselves and willing give absolutely everything they have into pulling those wagons because it's what they truly love to do.
> 
> I know it's your journal, and I'm not trying to come across in a mean, condescending way (I never intend to), but you have a lot of supporters here from a wide range of disciplines. People that are here and wanting to help you and wanting you to succeed. When you make comments like the above regarding this specific discipline, and scoffing at the pulling collars, all you will do is have some of these people with an incredible wealth of knowledge totally leave this thread and dismiss any idea of helping you further. Just try to remember that. You could have phrased it as "Does anyone know about chuck wagon races? What kind of bits do they use? The training regimen? Has anyone seen one live?" And your answers would have been SO different!


I deeply apologize to anyone (Greentree) if I offended you. I honestly, did not mean it. I was just expressing my opinion. I'm not against horse racing as a whole, just certain types within it. 

I know everyone will have their own interests in the horse world (which is fine by me, I have nothing against it), but the Chuckwagon races at the Stampede every year are unlike no other international event out there. Simply because of how many horses have died and the high risk involved. 

I don't like to beat around the bush in trying to say what I want to say. I just want to express my opinions. I really did not want to make anyone upset over my comments, that wasn't my intention at all.


----------



## Prairie

Here's what can happen in a hitch class.......https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...8F5E07AEB9D3A875122C8F5E07AEB9D3A87&FORM=VIRE.


This is the world famous Budweiser team's accident......





Hoofpic, by now you should have realized that horse can be dangerous and that accidents happen.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, once again you don't have the knowledge and experience to make a judgment based on something you read---remember the farrier article you thought was so good and other told you it was worthless? You didn't even have the knowledge to recognize a pulling/work collar.
> 
> 
> Thoroughbreds are bred to run. It is the writer's opinion that the horses are stressed and fatigued by the race, but that writer isn't a vet or race horse trainer who can assess this. If we waited till horses were fully grown and matured, most wouldn't be trained until they're almost 7 yo. Most competitors have a succession of horses over the year as their horses age or have reached their highest potential, but that does not mean the horses are sent to slaughter----a good driving horse brings a pretty good price, so would be sold to someone who may want to compete in other types of driving competitions.
> 
> 
> Draft breeds are often started pulling a lighter wagon or cart when they are long yearlings, so about 18 months old. There is also an outcry about draft horses being used to pull tourists around in cities. Should we forget about those hard working breeds who were once the backbone of farming, transportation, and delivering goods?
> 
> 
> Have you ever been to a rodeo and watched the action? There are clowns to divert the bull if he threatens to charge and the horses and riders are in the arena as a backup to protect the downed rider. I've never seen a rodeo bull even threaten a horse---bulls are trained to look for the opening that leads back to their pen where they are fed, watered, and left alone.


I have never been to a rodeo and will never go to one. I don't want to go on about this too much, because I feel that I'm making people
upset, but I just think its too over the top at the Stampede.

I saw a pic on Facebook the other day of a calve choking because the rope around his neck was so tight. And saw another pic of a bunch of baby pigs kept in an airtight cage with their mama pig, unable to move. I dont know why it was done, but I had no interest in reading. This really set me over the top. I just can't deal with stuff like this. No need to put any living animal through that.

And yes, I am aware that thoroughbreds are born to run and it's fun to see them fun. Had a boarder friend at the old barn have one and it was amazing to see how fast he could take off in a field. 

But let's move on, I don't want to create any more harm on here. I really don't. It was not my intention to offend others. :sad:


----------



## Hoofpic

Hopefully my apology can be accepted. I honestly, did not mean to offend anyone.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Uh, I'm a race person and I can tell you that racing in general is not safer, and the horses are also very young. As I type I'm cold hosing a 4-year-old filly who's made well over $100k and just got a screw put in her ankle from a training injury. If you came across some of the anti-racing sites you'd probably have a panic attack.


You are right. I wouldn't want to hear about it. It's just too much for me.



Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, by now you should have realized that horse can be dangerous and that accidents happen.


Yes I have realized this. That video was hard to watch. Thankfully all the horses were okay. I love clydesdales.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> No the other rider was okay with it. After last lesson, she wanted me to try to find out what happened and why she fell. I said I wouldn't know why but I could try to find out for her and she said that is fine.


By letting her watch it? Let the trainer watch it? You did mention that earlier. However, did she know it would go public?


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> By letting her watch it? Let the trainer watch it? You did mention that earlier. However, did she know it would go public?


Yes I asked her first, and she said it was fine. She just wanted to find out why she fell and also why she wants me to get the video to her (for her own copy) next lesson. She is cool as a cucumber about her fall and was actually laughing and joking about it at the end when we were cleaning up.

Jenkat - this is her first fall, yes at this barn. But she fell for her first time about 5 years ago when she first started riding at another barn.

Someone earlier asked why she doesn't ask the trainer. Honestly, I don't know why.


----------



## Hoofpic

One of the things that I want to work on with Fly over the next bit is teaching her to open her mouth wider when I put her bit in. I would love to not have to dig in the soft spot of her mouth with my thumb.

Trainer said to try putting apple sauce or something on the bit. I don't remember where, but I have heard this method before. Does it work?

The reason why I want her to open wider is because I can't help but keep remembering how a lesson horse opens their mouth when bridled. They open way wide and if anything open well before the bit even is by their mouth. I would love for Fly to do this.


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> True but I think she said she has been riding 5 years on and off and when she started, she only rode once a week.
> 
> I had Fly at a walk when the rider fell off and continued to have her walk. The only reason why I had her trot for a few steps was because the paint gelding was following us and wanted to make sure we maintained our distance. But you are right, next time this happens, I stay at the opposite end of the arena.
> 
> I'm not denying what you are saying is true, I believe it is. But I know for a fact that some slaughter houses don't do it that way. At least here in Alberta or some parts in other parts of the world. Go on youtube and you will find endless videos of horses being hung while still alive or killed without a bolt gun. I won't get too much into detail because this whole topic of auctions/kill buyers/slaughter really bothers me like you wouldn't believe, and I will never watch any of the youtube videos. I will never respect anyone who works in that side of the industry.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm all for using a bolt gun to a horse versus having them starve to death. But the real cause is from people over breeding. Stop the over breeding, and we won't have this problem to begin with. But obviously, that is much easier said than done. And honestly, I don't even know if it's even possible to stop this problem from the root of the cause.
> 
> I deeply apologize to anyone (Greentree) if I offended you. I honestly, did not mean it. I was just expressing my opinion. I'm not against horse racing as a whole, just certain types within it.
> 
> I know everyone will have their own interests in the horse world (which is fine by me, I have nothing against it), but the Chuckwagon races at the Stampede every year are unlike no other international event out there. Simply because of how many horses have died and the high risk involved.
> 
> I don't like to beat around the bush in trying to say what I want to say. I just want to express my opinions. I really did not want to make anyone upset over my comments, that wasn't my intention at all.


Staying at the opposite end of the arena is good, but I'd stay at a halt in all honestly. That's just what I was personally taught to do.

I can also go on youtube and find dairy cows walking through a river full of manure. What they fail to mention in that particular video, is how it was staged by crazed PETA employees trying to make the farms look bad. I've been on HUNDREDS of dairy farms. One of my very best friends is in dairy extension and travels to farms. There is what the animal rights activists want you to see, and what is reality. What you are seeing in those videos is what the animal rights people WANT you to see. As for overbreeding, unfortunately that will never stop. There are a lot of industries that breed a lot. I won't get into the slaughter debate just because I just don't have the energy to deal with it (nor do I want to pull it onto your thread, as you've stated this topic makes you uncomfortable.)

Being against them is one thing. It's being against them for incorrect assumptions that irritates people. There are a few disciplines I don't fully understand the point of, but it's also not a good idea to publicly berate them. Just causes people to turn and attack. With you still being a bit green to the horse world (and I do not mean this in a negative way; my husband is also still green in the horse world), you really should go and SEE these things in person before making up your mind about them. The perceived vision of it will often vary GREATLY from the reality. According to the internet, all of us Dressage riders warm up with our horses curled totally over and nose to chest. In reality? A lot of us try to warm up our horses long and low and allowing them to stretch out and warm up. But the internet wants to condemn us. You see what I mean?

Cross Country has had multiple deaths, people and human, internationally. Barrel racing has taken quite a few people lately including some very young children. Each sport has it's risk. Every single one of them. And sometimes, not even the sport is at fault. Friend of mine knew a sweet little mare that descended from a line of horses that have had aneurysms or the like. Little mare won her class, was decked out in all of her winnings, and was trotting out of the ring with her little girl aboard when she slowly sank to the ground and passed away. Her final memories for the family was a victory, and then a gentle fall to the ground to save her child. Not sure HOW she managed to calculate a slow fall, but she did (numerous witnesses). And this was a FIT horse. Another friend of mine lost her horse in a similar way, only hers was on the cross country field. It sucks, but death is part of the horse industry. And it will always be.

I'm glad Prairie shared that video of the Clydesdales. I was about to go searching for it as well. Accidents happen in EVERY industry. You want to do the extreme cowboy challenge, correct? Well, quick search brought this up:






Looks like either a small competition or practice. Imagine if that had been at the speed you see the top competitors at (like the video you posted a few pages back.) That horse could have died at that speed.

As for the bit, you could try applesauce, but she may become super mouthy with it. At least playing with it a lot more. I usually just slip my thumb in and Izzie opens her mouth immediately without any real pressure.


----------



## tinyliny

Moderator's note:

I just wanted to mention that forum rules ask members not to post videos of others for critique unless the person being critiqued has given permission for such. Hoofpic assures me this ride has done so.


that being said, here's my take:

the rider is very precariously balanced, rolled forward onto her fork, and requiring her hands to balance off the reins. it's a very weak and ineffectual posisiton that can work as long as there are not sudden sideways movements, or accel/deccelerations. you can see at the beginning that when the horse propped a tiny bit, she collapsed forward. this is from not being really down into her lower leg. she is pinching at the knee, creating that pivot point that allows her to be ejected like from a catapult. I think the horse is not tolerant of her dodgy seat/balance, and probably inconsistant rein contact. she needs work on the lungeline. 

with regard to your reaction after the fall, the only thing I can say , hoofpic, is that when the pinto started to follow you and Fly, you might have stopped . that pinto was dragging his reins, so the less he walk around the better. I might have turned my horse to face him, and waited at a stand still, if possible. it looked like you were scared and ending up being 'chased' by the pinto, thus giving him many more chances to damange his mouth by stepping on the reins.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Staying at the opposite end of the arena is good, but I'd stay at a halt in all honestly. That's just what I was personally taught to do.


Okay thanks, I will remember this. But I think for a first time, I handled it pretty well. I remained calm and Fly did as well.



> I can also go on youtube and find dairy cows walking through a river full of manure. What they fail to mention in that particular video, is how it was staged by crazed PETA employees trying to make the farms look bad. I've been on HUNDREDS of dairy farms. One of my very best friends is in dairy extension and travels to farms. There is what the animal rights activists want you to see, and what is reality. What you are seeing in those videos is what the animal rights people WANT you to see.


Oh I see. 



> As for overbreeding, unfortunately that will never stop. There are a lot of industries that breed a lot. I won't get into the slaughter debate just because I just don't have the energy to deal with it (nor do I want to pull it onto your thread, as you've stated this topic makes you uncomfortable.)


I know overbreeding will never stop, which is really unfortunate that these people put themselves and money ahead of the horse, when it should always be the horse that comes first. People overbreeding do it for their self fulfillment and don't think twice if it is in their best decision to do so.



> Being against them is one thing. It's being against them for incorrect assumptions that irritates people. There are a few disciplines I don't fully understand the point of, but it's also not a good idea to publicly berate them. Just causes people to turn and attack.


Well I apologize for offending anyone. I didn't mean to.



> With you still being a bit green to the horse world (and I do not mean this in a negative way; my husband is also still green in the horse world), you really should go and SEE these things in person before making up your mind about them. The perceived vision of it will often vary GREATLY from the reality. According to the internet, all of us Dressage riders warm up with our horses curled totally over and nose to chest. In reality? A lot of us try to warm up our horses long and low and allowing them to stretch out and warm up. But the internet wants to condemn us. You see what I mean?


Well I do plan on sitting in on some dressage this October when I go out to BC to the Mane Event again. 

Unfortunately, I will not sit in on a rodeo or chuckwagon race. I just can't get myself to do it.



> Cross Country has had multiple deaths, people and human, internationally. Barrel racing has taken quite a few people lately including some very young children. Each sport has it's risk. Every single one of them. And sometimes, not even the sport is at fault. Friend of mine knew a sweet little mare that descended from a line of horses that have had aneurysms or the like. Little mare won her class, was decked out in all of her winnings, and was trotting out of the ring with her little girl aboard when she slowly sank to the ground and passed away. Her final memories for the family was a victory, and then a gentle fall to the ground to save her child. Not sure HOW she managed to calculate a slow fall, but she did (numerous witnesses). And this was a FIT horse. Another friend of mine lost her horse in a similar way, only hers was on the cross country field. It sucks, but death is part of the horse industry. And it will always be.


I know death is a part of the horse world. I won't go on about this because I know my opinion of chuckwagon racing is different from the rest on here.



> I'm glad Prairie shared that video of the Clydesdales. I was about to go searching for it as well. Accidents happen in EVERY industry. You want to do the extreme cowboy challenge, correct? Well, quick search brought this up:
> 
> Extreme Cowboy Race Horse WRECK .wmv - YouTube
> 
> Looks like either a small competition or practice. Imagine if that had been at the speed you see the top competitors at (like the video you posted a few pages back.) That horse could have died at that speed.


I would not be able to watch that in person.



> As for the bit, you could try applesauce, but she may become super mouthy with it. At least playing with it a lot more. I usually just slip my thumb in and Izzie opens her mouth immediately without any real pressure.


I might try the apple sauce method and see how she responds. I just want her to open up wider. I know my bit, because it has a fruit loop like roller right in the middle of the single break snaffle, it naturally sits vertical so it means that I need to get her to open her mouth more so that one piece doesnt rub or hit her front teeth. But it can be hard when she doesn't open up very wide in the first place.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> Moderator's note:
> 
> I just wanted to mention that forum rules ask members not to post videos of others for critique unless the person being critiqued has given permission for such. Hoofpic assures me this ride has done so.
> 
> 
> that being said, here's my take:
> 
> the rider is very precariously balanced, rolled forward onto her fork, and requiring her hands to balance off the reins. it's a very weak and ineffectual posisiton that can work as long as there are not sudden sideways movements, or accel/deccelerations. you can see at the beginning that when the horse propped a tiny bit, she collapsed forward. this is from not being really down into her lower leg. she is pinching at the knee, creating that pivot point that allows her to be ejected like from a catapult. I think the horse is not tolerant of her dodgy seat/balance, and probably inconsistant rein contact. she needs work on the lungeline.
> 
> with regard to your reaction after the fall, the only thing I can say , hoofpic, is that when the pinto started to follow you and Fly, you might have stopped . that pinto was dragging his reins, so the less he walk around the better. I might have turned my horse to face him, and waited at a stand still, if possible. it looked like you were scared and ending up being 'chased' by the pinto, thus giving him many more chances to damange his mouth by stepping on the reins.


Yes I could have stopped Fly but I wanted to keep her walking for the exercise. I wasn't at all scared as the gelding came up, I was relaxed as can be and just knew I couldn't let him get within a horse distance from us. I wasn't aware of him possibly stepping on his reins at the time, but I see it now.


----------



## tinyliny

You said:

"I might try the apple sauce method and see how she responds. I just want her to open up wider. I know my bit, because it has a *fruit loop like roller right in the middle of the single break snaffle*, it naturally sits vertical so it means that I need to get her to open her mouth more so that one piece doesnt rub or hit her front teeth. But it can be hard when she doesn't open up very wide in the first place."

I think it might actually be considered a double jointed snaffle, if there is something seperate that moves on its own, between the two halves. that is becasue there is a joint where the 'fruit loop' (often called a 'dogbone') and one side of the mouthpiece, and a joint between the dogbone and the OTHER side of the mouthpiece, thus TWO joints.


----------



## Hoofpic

I have made my decision that I will be attending this, this weekend. 










It is free to get in and they allow cameras (hooray!), I will most likely only go up on Sunday since I will be spending 5 hours on the road and still need time to spend at the barn. Sat, I have a lesson at 11am and don't want to miss it and wouldn't allow me enough time to get up to the show afterwards.

Friday is dressage, I will try to go if I can find someone to go with. If not, I won't go.

These are the classes Im planning to watch on Sunday. Not sure what the numbers mean. My guess is different groups, all running at once.

Trail Classes, 46,47,48,48
Showmanship Classes 53,54,55,56
Driving Class 57
Western Pleasure Classes, 64,68,69,70,71,73
Western Horsemanship Classes 68,69,70,71

Depending on how late these run:
Poles Classes 87,88,89,90
Barrels Classes 91,92,93,94


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I could have stopped Fly but I wanted to keep her walking for the exercise. I wasn't at all scared as the gelding came up, I was relaxed as can be and just knew I couldn't let him get within a horse distance from us. I wasn't aware of him possibly stepping on his reins at the time, but I see it now.


At that point, with him following you, just hop off and stand still. Never run away. If you get off you can also potentially grab the horse's reins and keep him still, although I do not think you're quite ready to handle two horses in hand.

I've put my horse through "pony/outrider horse" training for the track, so if a rider falls I can grab the horse (if asked or if need be).


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I would not be able to watch that in person.
> 
> 
> 
> I might try the apple sauce method and see how she responds. I just want her to open up wider. I know my bit, because it has a fruit loop like roller right in the middle of the single break snaffle, it naturally sits vertical so it means that I need to get her to open her mouth more so that one piece doesnt rub or hit her front teeth. But it can be hard when she doesn't open up very wide in the first place.


The reality, though, is that could happen at every single event you attend. It's a part of the horse world when you move out faster than a walk or trot. You listed you want to watch the poles and barrels. I just had a friend go down with her horse in the warm up pen about a week ago. Her and her horse are totally fine, thankfully. But it's a horse moving at speed. We all hope it doesn't happen, but there is a chance any one of us could go out tomorrow and show, or train, or trail ride, and the horse fall. It's a risk you willingly take on by riding, and really there isn't many disciplines exempt from possible catastrophe.

What does your bit look like? Do you have a picture? Hard to picture with that description of it.

Far as continuing with the exercise, no. When I came off (nearly 10 years ago now...) in a warm up ring, even the girl in the middle of her dressage test stopped. Everyone stopped until the horse was caught. Stopping helps you remain safe and is a way to get the other horse to relax and stop. Yes, you were calm and so was Fly. But if you had stopped, that paint may have too. Just don't want to see you get hurt if Fly had decided to be anything other than the good girl she was.


----------



## Prairie

Stopping when a rider becomes unseated is just watching out for both you, the downed rider, and any other's in the area. Fly did not get enough additional exercise by you not stopping to really count. 


At most shows the classes run one at a time since many riders and horses are entered in multiple classes.


----------



## natisha

Prairie said:


> Stopping when a rider becomes unseated is just watching out for both you, the downed rider, and any other's in the area. Fly did not get enough additional exercise by you not stopping to really count.
> 
> 
> At most shows the classes run one at a time since many riders and horses are entered in multiple classes.


As some of the numbers are duplicates am I correct to assume they indicate classes which count towards high point/s?


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> At that point, with him following you, just hop off and stand still. Never run away. If you get off you can also potentially grab the horse's reins and keep him still, although I do not think you're quite ready to handle two horses in hand.
> 
> I've put my horse through "pony/outrider horse" training for the track, so if a rider falls I can grab the horse (if asked or if need be).


Okay. Which I feel capable in hopping off and standing still.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> You said:
> 
> "I might try the apple sauce method and see how she responds. I just want her to open up wider. I know my bit, because it has a *fruit loop like roller right in the middle of the single break snaffle*, it naturally sits vertical so it means that I need to get her to open her mouth more so that one piece doesnt rub or hit her front teeth. But it can be hard when she doesn't open up very wide in the first place."
> 
> I think it might actually be considered a double jointed snaffle, if there is something seperate that moves on its own, between the two halves. that is becasue there is a joint where the 'fruit loop' (often called a 'dogbone') and one side of the mouthpiece, and a joint between the dogbone and the OTHER side of the mouthpiece, thus TWO joints.


I'm almost certain mine is a single break but I can take a pic of it. I know the dog bone in the middle sits vertical and is quite big. Kinda wish I got a bit without the dogbone cause it just gets in the way putting the bit in her mouth.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> The reality, though, is that could happen at every single event you attend. It's a part of the horse world when you move out faster than a walk or trot. You listed you want to watch the poles and barrels. I just had a friend go down with her horse in the warm up pen about a week ago. Her and her horse are totally fine, thankfully. But it's a horse moving at speed. We all hope it doesn't happen, but there is a chance any one of us could go out tomorrow and show, or train, or trail ride, and the horse fall. It's a risk you willingly take on by riding, and really there isn't many disciplines exempt from possible catastrophe.


I've accepted that injuries and accidents are a reality of horse ownership. 



> What does your bit look like? Do you have a picture? Hard to picture with that description of it.


It looks just like this except right in the middle, there is a dogbone that sits vertically.












> Far as continuing with the exercise, no. When I came off (nearly 10 years ago now...) in a warm up ring, even the girl in the middle of her dressage test stopped. Everyone stopped until the horse was caught. Stopping helps you remain safe and is a way to get the other horse to relax and stop. Yes, you were calm and so was Fly. But if you had stopped, that paint may have too.


Good point. It was a good first experience for me to learn and build from.



> Just don't want to see you get hurt if Fly had decided to be anything other than the good girl she was.


Thanks, I really appreciate it.


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## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> I'm almost certain mine is a single break but I can take a pic of it. I know the dog bone in the middle sits vertical and is quite big. Kinda wish I got a bit without the dogbone cause it just gets in the way putting the bit in her mouth.



now I'm very curious to see this bit. I've not heard of a dogbone with a vertical orientation. I hope you'll take some photos. should be easy to do.










any of these look like your bit?


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Stopping when a rider becomes unseated is just watching out for both you, the downed rider, and any other's in the area. Fly did not get enough additional exercise by you not stopping to really count.
> 
> 
> At most shows the classes run one at a time since many riders and horses are entered in multiple classes.


Thanks. I am looking forward to the show on Sunday. Will take some pictures.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> any of these look like your bit?


Thanks for the pics. This one looks like it. Id say very close. Basically both sections of the snaffle connect to a single small loop right in the centre and on that small loop is a copper roller that sits vertically. But the small loop on my snaffle is MUCH smaller than the one in this pic.


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## Prairie

Sorry duplicate post.


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## Prairie

If that's what your snaffle bit looks like, it's a double jointed bit.


I suspect Hoofpic made an error in listing the classes since I've never attended or participated in a show where the same number was use on more than one class. Normally, high point rider is won by gaining the most points regardless of the classes entered. I've seen a couple of ways this can be calculate---rider on multiple horses in a variety of events or rider on only one horse who is very versatile in Western, English, Driving, and Games. 


In some shows to qualify for the Championship classes you have to place well in lower level classes first.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> If that's what your snaffle bit looks like, it's a double jointed bit.


ok thanks. Is a single break better than a double jointed bit?



> I suspect Hoofpic made an error in listing the classes since I've never attended or participated in a show where the same number was use on more than one class. Normally, high point rider is won by gaining the most points regardless of the classes entered. I've seen a couple of ways this can be calculate---rider on multiple horses in a variety of events or rider on only one horse who is very versatile in Western, English, Driving, and Games.
> 
> In some shows to qualify for the Championship classes you have to place well in lower level classes first.


No I just copied it from their site.

All Breed Horse Show | Medicine Hat Exhibition & Stampede


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## Rainaisabelle

Please don't start on Thoroughbreds. Unless you own one or work in the race industry you probably shouldn't comment. TBs are born to run that's what they are bred for and they live very cushy lives. I don't agree with everything but I don't agree with everything that happens in other disciplines either. People get so hyped up without knowing the facts. 

TB yearlings sell for millions. My horse sold for $ 143000 and won over $131000 he loved to race loved it. When he retired he was sent to a lovely home and sold on and neglected. Not all these horses are lucky but you can **** well be sure the race trainers/owners try to get them decent homes when they retire. In Australia they dominate the show ring and are extremely versatile animals used in a wide range is diciplines.


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I've accepted that injuries and accidents are a reality of horse ownership.
> 
> 
> 
> It looks just like this except right in the middle, there is a dogbone that sits vertically.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. It was a good first experience for me to learn and build from.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I really appreciate it.


Glad you've accepted :wink: it's a part of being in horses. We all just hope it's never a bad fall when we come off.

An actual picture of the bit would help! As far as single versus jointed, depends on the horse. Some horses are fine with a single joint. My mare will go straight up and wave to jesus with a single joint. Whatever works for the horse is the best one to use, period.

It certainly was. And I think you'll be better prepared if it happens again 

I know it doesn't always come across that way, but most of us do just want you to be safe.


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## egrogan

When I first got my horse, she went in a plain, single-jointed D ring snaffle. I thought I could be "gentler" to her if I switched to a double jointed (french link, still D-ring). She _hated_ that bit. I also tried her bitless in a Dr. Cook style, which didn't work at all. Went back to the plain, no name single-jointed snaffle and she's perfectly happy. The right bit is the one that works with the horse you're riding. Hence why everyone keeps talking about their massive bit collection.


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## Prairie

As others have said, which bit is best depends on the individual horse. Hubby's gelding prefers a D ring single jointed thick mouthpiece Snaffle for everything while our mare does best in an O-ring thin mouthpiece French link for training or jumping, but is ridden in a bitless sidepull with the noseband wrapped so it has no bite on trails. You play around with bits to find the one the horse prefers and is most comfortable in. And this need to find the correct bit for every horse I've ever had explains my huge snaffle bit collection!


You apparently miscopied the show bill since there are no duplicate numbers for the various classes.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Glad you've accepted :wink: it's a part of being in horses. We all just hope it's never a bad fall when we come off.
> 
> An actual picture of the bit would help! As far as single versus jointed, depends on the horse. Some horses are fine with a single joint. My mare will go straight up and wave to jesus with a single joint. Whatever works for the horse is the best one to use, period.
> 
> It certainly was. And I think you'll be better prepared if it happens again
> 
> I know it doesn't always come across that way, but most of us do just want you to be safe.


Sure I will take a pic of the bit when I go to the barn later this afternoon.

I have tried a double joined bit on Fly before, the Myler (though it was also a D-ring and not a loose ring), but she didn't approve of it at all.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> When I first got my horse, she went in a plain, single-jointed D ring snaffle. I thought I could be "gentler" to her if I switched to a double jointed (french link, still D-ring). She _hated_ that bit. I also tried her bitless in a Dr. Cook style, which didn't work at all. Went back to the plain, no name single-jointed snaffle and she's perfectly happy. The right bit is the one that works with the horse you're riding. Hence why everyone keeps talking about their massive bit collection.


I will check out what bit I have but I'm almost certain its a single break, because when I went to that bit clinic a couple months ago, the lady was talking about how single breaks put pressure on the horse's tongue and that you need a double break to eliminate that problem. So I showed her mine and she said that it puts pressure on Fly's tongue and that I would need a double break. So I went back into the store and looked for sweet iron double break snaffles and the only one they had was the Myler. 

The bit clinic clinician was a good lady though, she didn't just try to sell my on Myler bits as wasn't a huge fan of Myler bits, she considered them more "flavour of the month", type bits and not necessarily better than others. Good bits nonetheless, but whether it was worth the extra money was ultimately up to me.


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## Tazzie

We tried a Myler as well. Soon as it was in and I was on, Izzie curled her head straight to her chest and left it there. On a loose rein. She wanted NO part of the Myler. I keep it just in case if I 1) have a friend that wanted to try it or 2) have a future horse that would love it.

This is the bit she goes best in now, though I want to play around with other ones in the off season since this bit is not legal past Fourth Level Dressage. And as I have aspirations to eventually get there, I want as much time as possible to find a legal bit for it:

Happy Mouth Copper Roller Mouth Loose Ring

If Fly is going well in what you have, no sense messing with it (though, it sounded like you just wanted her to open her mouth wider to take the bit.) I look forward to seeing what your bit looks like just because it's always interesting to me to see what others use.


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## natisha

I've found that some Myler bits work best if adjusted a little looser than other bits.


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## jenkat86

natisha said:


> I've found that some Myler bits work best if adjusted a little looser than other bits.


I've noticed this, too. Lose enough to allow the horse to carry the bit how it prefers.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> We tried a Myler as well. Soon as it was in and I was on, Izzie curled her head straight to her chest and left it there. On a loose rein. She wanted NO part of the Myler. I keep it just in case if I 1) have a friend that wanted to try it or 2) have a future horse that would love it.
> 
> This is the bit she goes best in now, though I want to play around with other ones in the off season since this bit is not legal past Fourth Level Dressage. And as I have aspirations to eventually get there, I want as much time as possible to find a legal bit for it:
> 
> Happy Mouth Copper Roller Mouth Loose Ring
> 
> If Fly is going well in what you have, no sense messing with it (though, it sounded like you just wanted her to open her mouth wider to take the bit.) I look forward to seeing what your bit looks like just because it's always interesting to me to see what others use.


The main reason why I got the Myler was because after sitting in on the bit clinic, I was convinced that a D-ring would be better suited for Fly, seeing how:

1) [I could be backwards on this one] D-ring's apply the pressure on a more concentrated isolated area whereas loose rings spread the pressure throughout the mouth? The impression that I got from the clinic was that D-rings are more for well trained horses and riders with soft hands. But I know it all depends on the horse and rider. A lot of green horses and green riders may just be fine with loose rings.

2) D-ring's are more suited for a rider with soft hands (though my hands have improved tremendously over the past couple months and my trainer would say that they aren't much of an issue anymore).

I know my trainer was a bit puzzled when I got the Myler. She just didn't know why I got it. She said if the loose ring (and it clearly was) working good with Fly, why change it? She said the less I can change the better because Fly gets used to her equipment over time and it's not fair to her to constantly change things if I dont need to. Which is true, because over the past few months, she has had to get used to new tack - new saddle, new pad, new stirrups, new halter, new reins. That's a lot, and I incorporated all of that in, in a pretty short span of time.

Lesson learned: When you buy a horse, don't always take all the tack that the previous owner had. I paid an extra $100 to have Fly's red halter, 12ft lead, bridle, bit, bare back pad included. I took it all because I figured Fly was used to it all and want to keep it all the same. Well turns out, the bit I ended up having to replace with a larger size, the bare back pad is now too small for her (never used it once), the red halter is too small. So the only thing that I was able to continue using was the 12ft lead (Which I love and its my main lead) and the bridle. Still, I guess not bad for the extra $100 (her bridle alone is probably $40-50) and the lead is $30. But if I was to do it all over again, I would have put everything on her, assess to see how well they fit, then see which tack I wanted to be included in her sale etc.

But stuff like her old bit, bareback pad and halter, I should be able to donate it.


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## egrogan

I think you're getting confused about brands, mouthpieces, and cheek style.

Myler is a brand of bits. Lots of different kinds of mouthpieces and cheek styles- but they would all be called Myler. Happy Mouth is another popular brand, with different mouthpieces and cheek styles- but they're all "Happy Mouths."

Single vs. double-jointed is a way to describe the mouthpiece. You might also hear terms like "french link," "lozenge," "mullen mouth," etc. If the mouthpiece is attached in more than one place, it's not a single-joint. Each mouthpiece could have a different ring style.

D-ring is a specific type of cheek style, i.e., the description of the ring where the bit attaches to the cheekpiece of the bridle. Each ring style could have a different kind of mouthpiece.

A Myler bit could have a variety of mouthpieces and ring styles. It's just a brand, like Ariat is a brand of boots that may be tall or short, with thick vs. thin tread.

And then of course you can start getting into leverage action with curb-type bits, when there are shanks and a chin strap, but it doesn't sound like you're riding in that style.

Talking about bits can turn controversial, and every person probably has a different opinion about what type of bit is "harsh" vs. "soft." But you might want to spend some time studying a guide that identifies different ring styles, mouthpieces, and the theoretical purpose of using one type vs. another. Reasonable people may disagree with components of the descriptions offered in this guide, but it's a pretty basic overview:
HorseChannel's Online Bit Guide


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## Prairie

The simple truth about bits is they are only as harsh as the rider's hands. A Vaquero who has spent years learning how to properly train a horse using a bosal up to the Spade bit has developed hands that are light as a feather and a horse who responds to a whisper. In the wrong hands, that same bit becomes a torture device. Single jointed snaffles can become a vice that pops the horse on the roof of his mouth while squeezing the tongue in harsh hands.


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## Hoofpic

Ah it worked! I corrected Fly with a loud groul and it stopped her dead in her tracks, got her immediate full attention. I have to say that was the first time Ive ever done that and it worked! Today Fly was fussing when I was taking her bit out of her mouth (would like to find a way for her to stop fussing so much with her mouth when i take her bit out). It really reminds me of the haltering issue I had when I got her, where I would unhalter her and she would toss and shake her head and wiggle her muzzle to free herself. 

The thing with Fly is that when Im taking her bridle off around her ears, I have it on my mind each time to NOT have the bit bang against the back of her front teeth as I lower it. But she constantly opens and closes her mouth (will look like shes eating but with her mouth wide open). I dont know if she is doing this because she doesnt trust me in unbridling her or what. But I want her to stop with all the mouth play. Just open the mouth and trust me that I will free the bit from your mouth without banging your front teeth. It makes it that much more challenging though when she is constantly chomping up and down on the bit. 

Is it normal for a horse to do this when bring unbridled? Should they not stand and just wait for the bit to get released then open their mouth?

So what I did was (cause I figured the haltering issue from many many months ago would relate to this), as she was fussing. I said WOAH and I held the bit in her mouth, didnt let it out of her mouth until she calmed down a bit. Now, because she just kept chewing and chewing I let go of the bit from her mouth as soon as she showed me a bit of calmness. Baby steps right? I couldnt ask for her to be completely calm because I knew it just wasnt going to happen.

Then I put the bit back in, had her wear it for a bit longer until I took her saddle off, the I went back to the bit. This time, she didnt fuss nearly as much. There was a significant improvement. 

I was doubting if whether or not Fly knew and learned what i wanted from her the first time I asked. I wasnt sure if i made myself clear enough on what I was asking.

So I gave her the correction by me growling, when I went to rebridle her. She didnt want the bit back in and tried stepping backwards and then forward into me. First time, I gave her a hard wack on the neck and said QUIT! She didnt listen, so she tried it again and this is when I said QUIT louder and with a growl and it stopped her right in her tracks. I thinnk I totally caught her by surprise because she has never seen that kind of correction from me, ever. Now, she stood still while I put the bit back in. All I did was tighten up my stomach muscles and pushed up the power for me to grunt with force.

So lately I have made an adjustment. I no longer use the word "NO" or "Hey NO" when correcting her. Its now "Quit". How long do you think before she catches on that "QUIT" is the new word when im correcting her and "No" or "Hey NO" are no longer valid?


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## Hoofpic

Sorry I forgot to take pics of my bit. I will tomorrow. And now that the field is starting to dry up and isnt as muddy as it was a couple days ago, I will take pics of her soles as well.

I rode Fly today by myself in the outdoor arena. She stood pretty good at the block for me. She wasn't perfect (as in I couldn't get her perfectly aligned, she was perfectly sideways to the block but I would say she was one step back to where I wanted her), but she stood and I was still able to get on. I made sure I rewarded her before I got on (as she was standing) with scratches and repeated again as soon as I got on.

I can't tell you how blessed I feel to have turned these stirrups. God does it make it so much easier to get my feet in and out of them. Its as easy as pie now. Thanks again Golden. 

I kept my ride to about 30mins today. It was really hot out today.


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## Prairie

I suspect Fly is fussing because you are so awkward putting on and removing the bridle----it should be one fluid movement with no hesitation at any stage of the process.


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## greentree

When she starts to fuss, just hold the bridle still, with the bit still in her mouth. If she starts to wiggle with the bit halfway down, just raise it back up until she is still, then start to lower it again. If she fusses and the bridle comes off, put it right back on, and TEACH her the proper way( see below...)

As with ANYTHING training related, we do not quit until we recieve a positive response. 

For instance, if I pat one of my horses on the rear, and they react, I KEEP patting until they do not react. Then , I go back and do a test pat, to see if my teaching worked.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> I suspect Fly is fussing because you are so awkward putting on and removing the bridle----it should be one fluid movement with no hesitation at any stage of the process.


I don't think Im that awkward anymore. My trainer doesn't think so and she watches me just about each time when I bridle her.

I've gotten really comfortable (in terms of the motion and what I need to go about it) bridling and unbridling Fly ever since I started riding her again. I don't have any hesistations in my movements. Before I was a bit nervous going into it because it was so new to me. But lately, it's started to feel natural (just like tacking up and grooming etc). That's a good sign.

The only hesistations are when she doesnt want to open up right away and doesnt open up enough (im going to try apple cause on the bit today) and when she constantly opens and closes her mouth when unbridling (so then I have to be extra careful that the bit doesnt bang the back of her front teeth).

Fly mainly only fusses when I unbridle her and she starts fussing as soon as she feels me start to take the bridle off around the first ear. She will just chomp around on the bit and play with it in her mouth like crazy.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> When she starts to fuss, just hold the bridle still, with the bit still in her mouth. If she starts to wiggle with the bit halfway down, just raise it back up until she is still, then start to lower it again. If she fusses and the bridle comes off, put it right back on, and TEACH her the proper way( see below...)
> 
> As with ANYTHING training related, we do not quit until we recieve a positive response.
> 
> For instance, if I pat one of my horses on the rear, and they react, I KEEP patting until they do not react. Then , I go back and do a test pat, to see if my teaching worked.


Thanks Ill try that today. Like I said yesterday, I got a noticably better (as in less fuss) response from Fly the second time I unbridled her. And I was going to do it again, but I figured i would just leave it at that for the day because it was a good note. I had a very good feeling that I could tackle this issue like I did with the unhaltering issue. The unhaltering issue took 2 solid days for her to really change (it was a night and day difference). The first day I worked with her on it, we spent over 20mins on it, because that halter wasn't coming off until she stood still and didn't fuss with her head. As soon as she did, I released the halter when she least expected it.


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## Prairie

.....but you just posted that you think she needs to open her mouth wider for you to get the bit in. That means you aren't being smooth nor are you not hesitating. For unbridling, I verbally tell our horses "open" when I'm ready to lower the bridle.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> .....but you just posted that you think she needs to open her mouth wider for you to get the bit in. That means you aren't being smooth nor are you not hesitating. For unbridling, I verbally tell our horses "open" when I'm ready to lower the bridle.


Well when I bridle her, I slide my thumb to her soft spot and she will respond but she delays or she barely opens her mouth from it. BO said to try putting my thumb further back in her mouth and I've tried it and make much of a difference.


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## greentree

Press down with your thumb, then UP to get her to open wider.


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## Prairie

Post videos of you bridling and unbridling please.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Press down with your thumb, then UP to get her to open wider.


Ok thanks. I've always just been pressing down.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Post videos of you bridling and unbridling please.


I can do this, but I will say that before I do it, I am still bridling the way that my trainer taught me. I know a few members on here posted another method where you hold the bridle between their ears, then put the bit in. Tried it on Fly about a month ago and she is better to the original way I did it.

Not saying that you guys are wrong or that I'm ignoring your advice. I'm just going with what works and what I'm used to.


----------



## Hoofpic

I got pics of Fly's bit and her soleS.

BO's farrier came out today and she took a look at Flys feet and fixed them a bit. She said...

1) The heels on all 4 are too low. 
2) There is too much sole (the outside edge) on all 4.
3) Frogs were bit messy, bits and ends here and there that should have been tidied up.

She had me walk Fly towards her and said that this is the #1 thing that all farriers should do with horses they trim. Have the horse walked to them so that they can see how that horse walks and their conformation.

So she took a bit off the outsides to level them up and tidied up the frogs. She said, no need to have the odds and ends of the frogs hanging because it just traps and brings in dirt.

She said to allow 8 weeks before having her trim next. She said she wants to make sure that she has enough to work with when fixing Fly's feet next. So 8 weeks it is! I think Fly should be okay. BO and I will keep an eye on them. I dont think her hoofs will start cracking after 6 weeks.

See this is one benefit to using the BO's farrier, they know each other and the BO can and will be in the loop on whats going on with Flys feet etc. The farrier and the BO have known each other for many years and she follows up with him on every horse that she trims at the barn. When I had an outside farrier, I dont get this luxury of being abe to keep the BO in the loop with whats happening with Flys feet because the BO doesnt know or talk to him. So its a luxury that I will make the most out of because I consider myself lucky. 

the number one thing that I really liked about this farrier is that she takes the time to explain things. She didn't even charge me today.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Press down with your thumb, then UP to get her to open wider.


I want to say thanks. I tried this today and it worked! I ended up bridling and unbridling Fly 7 or 8 times today. She opened up her mouth almost instantly as soon as my thumber went up after it went down in her mouth.

When I unbridled her. I would take the bridle off around her ears and then right away she would be fussing with her mouth and chomping away with her mouth on the bit by constantly opening and closing her mouth. So I gave a firm WHOA, held the bit in the back of her mouth until she would calm down a bit and take it easy on the mouth play. Rewarded her and gave her over the top praise as soon as the bit came out. 

Now because the first couple times, she was fussing a lot, I just waited for her to calm down a bit and for her mouth play to be toned down a bit, then I released the bit. Small steps at a time right? Cause obviously if shes fussing with her mouth, I cant all of a sudden expect for her to stop the fussing altogethr all in one bridle/unbridle routine right? So after about 6 or 7 times, and I noticed a significant change in her. She was still fussing, but not near as much. So I stopped after the 7th or 8th time bridling her. And not once did I allow that bit to bang the back of her front teeth. 

I didnt want to do it more because, small bits at a time right? You can't climb a mountain in one day. So next time I head out (friday) we work on it some more.

Another thing is that, I worked on putting light pressure on her poll and having her lower her head, while I said "HEAD". She did it all 3 times when I asked. So if I can manage to lower her head when I unbridle her that would be even better because with her head lowered, she won't have much of a chance to fuss with her mouth right?


----------



## Prairie

The reason she was fussing about the it as you were unbridling her is probably because the bit was hanging against her front teeth when you took it off around her ears. Use the right hand to take it off over her ears and he left hand to cue her to open her mouth. Eventually she'll learn to open her mouth as the bridle comes over her ears so the bit falls out of her mouth.


----------



## greentree

I am glad that worked for you!

You keep worrying about taking little steps, but if the horse is still exhibiting ANY of the behavior that you are trying to eliminate, you are TRAINING the horse to STILL do the behavior. 

Whatever you quit with is what you just trained.

Think about your friend falling off. If the pony had been REALLY bucking, and then they quit with the pony "only" kicking out.....the pony was just taught it was OK to kick out.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> The reason she was fussing about the it as you were unbridling her is probably because the bit was hanging against her front teeth when you took it off around her ears. Use the right hand to take it off over her ears and he left hand to cue her to open her mouth. Eventually she'll learn to open her mouth as the bridle comes over her ears so the bit falls out of her mouth.


No Ive always made sure I held the bit up when I take the bridle off around her ears.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I am glad that worked for you!
> 
> You keep worrying about taking little steps, but if the horse is still exhibiting ANY of the behavior that you are trying to eliminate, you are TRAINING the horse to STILL do the behavior.
> 
> Whatever you quit with is what you just trained.
> 
> Think about your friend falling off. If the pony had been REALLY bucking, and then they quit with the pony "only" kicking out.....the pony was just taught it was OK to kick out.


OH.

So, do you think that I should have kept going? So you don't think Fly got what I was asking? Even though I bridle/unbridled her 8 or 9 times already?

I spent a half hour with her on it today. When I did the unhaltering with her last year for the first time, it was about the same amount of time. Then the second day, I noticed significant improvement. I wasn't going to head to the barn tomorrow but Im wondering if now I should just to repeat this again on back to back days vs having a day inbetween.


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## Hoofpic

Her bit. 










All 4 feet. Sorry for not re-cleaning them out again. She just had them cleaned out and touched up by the BO's farrier.


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## Hoofpic

I had a chat with my BO after and I can tell he is happy that a I ditched my farrier and went with his. Not that he had anything against my farrier that I've been using, but he's always been on the fence about him on whether he would trust him with his own horses. He knows all about my farrier, not taking enough frog off, Fly being a bit sensitive for a day after a trim when I rode her on light gravel, and when I showed him her feet after last trim with her outside walls not completely touching the ground all around the hoof. 

But because the farrier came to the barn to trim Fly and Fly is my mare, he stayed out of it. But I know deep down, he didn't really care for the guy.

But if anything, this shows him that my knowledge is growing and I've become more aware and smart with my actions. And Im learning the important of hoof trims and finding a good farrier. He has spent the time to teach me and talk to me about hooves and I return the favour to him by showing him that I trust his judgement in farriers and going with his for now on.

The only thing is, now because this is the BO's farrier, she only comes out on certain days (every 2 weeks, usually on a Wed or Thurs), during the morning and afternoon. With boarders horses, the trainer and BO will go catch them, bring them in to get trimmed, then put them back out (barns normally charge more for this but not mine).

I am okay with my trainer and BO bringing in Fly when she gets trimmed. But for me, one of the greatest things that I enjoyed most about my previous farriers, was how much I learn from them just by talking to them, watching them trim etc. I would like to continue to go catch Fly myself, and watch the farrier trim, and then put her back out. I don't know if this comes across as a bit wierd or creepy? Does it? 

Should I just stay out of it and when it's time for Fly to be trimmed, let my trainer and BO catch her and do what they have to do?

Like today, my trainer texted me asking if I wanted to be there for the farriers assessment on Fly's feet. I said yes, so I headed down just in the nick of time. I was aware that the farrier was coming today, I just completely forgot it was already the day. Time flies. The trainer went to catch her to save me time and when I got there, Fly was already in the barn and ready to go. She was getting antzy about standing there tied, which I was surprised about because her herd mate was right next to her.


----------



## greentree

Why does this farrier want you to wait 8 weeks before the next trim? They still look out of balance to me......and having someone watch the horse walk does not mean they know what they are looking for.....


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Why does this farrier want you to wait 8 weeks before the next trim? They still look out of balance to me......and having someone watch the horse walk does not mean they know what they are looking for.....


She said because right now there's just not enough material on her hoof/sole to take off. There was and she did address some of the outside underrun, but she said give a good 8 weeks if I can, so that she has a lot of material to really work with when she fixes them. She said she can do 6 weeks if Fly's hooves are getting too long by then, but she would prefer 8.

Fly is definitely more comfortable right now than she was 3 hours ago, that's forsure. I was surprised just how much of the outter edge on the sole that she took off. This is what my farrier should have done at the last trim. I'm not sure why he would leave Fly's sole on the outter edge to be longer than the rest.


----------



## greentree

". I'm not sure why he would leave Fly's sole on the outter edge to be longer than the rest."

DID he leave the SOLE longer? Many hoof trimmers do not remove enough false sole to get to live sole, which leaves the WALLS too long.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> ". I'm not sure why he would leave Fly's sole on the outter edge to be longer than the rest."
> 
> DID he leave the SOLE longer? Many hoof trimmers do not remove enough false sole to get to live sole, which leaves the WALLS too long.


Well what the BOs farrier said, was that the sole was fine, he took enough off but the outter side was far too long.

But she took care of it


----------



## jenkat86

Nice bit. I use the exact same one. Only snaffle type my mare will stay quiet with.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Nice bit. I use the exact same one. Only snaffle type my mare will stay quiet with.


Thanks. But I'm sure we are using different brand of bits. Brands do matter right?


----------



## Hoofpic

Anyone here subscribe to Amazon Audible?

Just finished my first horse audiobook last week and am currently going through it again. I'm a fan of audiobooks! Never thought i would have, but seeing how I already spend so much time in my car, its amazing how quickly you can go through them.

My first book was a Mark Rashid book and decided to buy another one of his. Will start this one next.










I prefer audiobooks over physical books because it keeps you entertained in the car, I find that I can't read at home, I'm too distracted with other things. But if I'm out somewhere (like the barn), then I have no problem focusing and motivated to read.

I just finished this one and going through it again. I find that sometimes, hearing quotes and sayings TWICE can make it really sink into your head.

I rate this book 10/10










I find Amazon Audible to be the only source for audiobooks. I had no luck finding free books. The ones on AMazon aren't the cheapest (usually around $14-15CDN).

Then when I finish the 2nd book, I will start this one.


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## Hoofpic

Also Amazon Audible is $14.95CDN a month but it includes 1 free audio book. I know it's a bit crazy to be paying a monthly membership for audiobooks, but not much choice if you want good worthwhile audiobooks.

It can get pretty pricey though very quickly. If I can stick to one book a month (which is my goal), it shouldnt be too bad at $15 a month.


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> I had a chat with my BO after and I can tell he is happy that a I ditched my farrier and went with his. Not that he had anything against my farrier that I've been using, but he's always been on the fence about him on whether he would trust him with his own horses. He knows all about my farrier,* not taking enough frog off,* Fly being a bit sensitive for a day after a trim when I rode her on light gravel, and when I showed him her feet after last trim with her outside walls not completely touching the ground all around the hoof.


We've gone over this, that isn't a thing!!!!


----------



## tinyliny

I just started Audilble, though I LIKE reading in real form. I shall enjoy both formats.


----------



## tinyliny

I just started Audible, though I LIKE reading in real form. I shall enjoy both formats.


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## greentree

Here, i can get a lot of audio(and print) books FREE from the library, on the internet. And if they do not have a title that I want, I can put in a request, and they get it for me.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. But I'm sure we are using different brand of bits. Brands do matter right?


Yeah...we probably are, because I have no idea what brand my bit is. My bit cost me $12 bucks. I found it hanging in a corner of a tack shop. It was well used and covered in rust. 

If my horse likes it, has good feel and is safe for her, I use it. I don't care if it was made by Big Bird or whoever.


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## jenkat86

It's too late for me to edit my post, but I meant to add that the brand doesn't matter. Quality matters.


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## greentree

"Brands do matter, right?" 

From Mr. I-Cut-The-Brand-Name-Off-My-Jeans ???????


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## jaydee

I love Audible Books - they get me through all the boring barn work every morning


Brands can matter - really depends on the brand and what you're buying. A cheap imitation can last you for a year which is OK if that's what you want from it, a good named brand can keep going forever but with so many variables and the fact that not all brand names are good quality its a real lottery


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> We've gone over this, that isn't a thing!!!!


No what I meant was that the BO's farrier just tidied up her frogs. The previous farrier left little bits and pieces having off here and there. It was sloppy and a nonsense dealing with them when picking her feet. Not a good idea because it will just bring in dirt. Her soles look much better now.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Here, i can get a lot of audio(and print) books FREE from the library, on the internet. And if they do not have a title that I want, I can put in a request, and they get it for me.


You're lucky. I checked out my library awhile ago and very limited for horse books. 

Most of my books are on Amazon Kindle (which I don't mind). It's handy because I can also read from my phone as well if I'm out somewhere and need to kill time. 

Obviously, I would prefer FREE audiobooks, but I have no choice but to pay monthly for it. 

I have a real hard time reading at home, big reason is because I don't like being in the house period when I don't need to. So reading anywhere but inside the house is much more motivating for me and that's why audio books is probably what I'm going to invest most into simply because I can do it while I drive, so I make that time in the car productive.

My old boss is a huge fan of audiobooks. He was the first person to really introduce them to me. But because I hate reading, I would have to find something that really interests me and horses is the only thing I would ever read books on. I know its kinda sad and a bit wierd that I have such few interests in my life outside of horses.


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

I'm not as knowledgable as some on here are about bits, but I'm pretty sure Fly's bit is double jointed, Hoofpic.


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## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> No what I meant was that the BO's farrier just tidied up her frogs. The previous farrier left little bits and pieces having off here and there. It was sloppy and a nonsense dealing with them when picking her feet. Not a good idea because it will just bring in dirt. Her soles look much better now.


Well you really need to work on learning correct terminology, because the way you keep saying it implies hacking off part of the frog like you would the wall with the rasp to bring it down. Which isn't right.


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## Hoofpic

The first audiobook I just finished, I would say the best quote I got from it was....

"You don't ride on the horse, you ride with it. When you ride on the horse, you will tend to ride against it".


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Well you really need to work on learning correct terminology, because the way you keep saying it implies hacking off part of the frog like you would the wall with the rasp to bring it down. Which isn't right.


I'm aware of this and I plan on doing this once I receive the book from Gunkid. It should be any day now . When I get the book, I plan on keeping it with me in my car, reading it constantly when I'm at the barn, out and about etc. I'm very much looking forward to it.


----------



## Prairie

Why don't you go to the library and pick out some books on horses to read while you're waiting for the book from Gunkid? Start with ones that cover equine terminology, equine anatomy including the hoof, and basic care----check in the children's section too since there are many horse-crazy kids if you don't find anything in the adult's.


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## Hoofpic

I got offered $100 for my Myler bit. I think I should take it and accept the loss as a learning lesson moving forward.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Why don't you go to the library and pick out some books on horses to read while you're waiting for the book from Gunkid? Start with ones that cover equine terminology, equine anatomy including the hoof, and basic care----check in the children's section too since there are many horse-crazy kids if you don't find anything in the adult's.


I could but I'm currently finishing up two other books


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## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> I got offered $100 for my Myler bit. I think I should take it and accept the loss as a learning lesson moving forward.



more than half the stuff for sale out there is by someone who bought on a whim, took a chance, made a guess, and ended up having to resell. that is why I always say, if you are going to buy sight unseen off the internet, be sure the item has a good name reputation, because chances are high you will need to resell it.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> more than half the stuff for sale out there is by someone who bought on a whim, took a chance, made a guess, and ended up having to resell. that is why I always say, if you are going to buy sight unseen off the internet, be sure the item has a good name reputation, because chances are high you will need to resell it.


That's true. But personally, I dont think I have bought anything used yet (aside from my saddle). Everything else was new. 

I just got $100 for the Myler. I'm glad I was able to sell it. Took awhile though, but $100 is probably the most I would get for it. I looked online and they go for $99USD.


----------



## Hoofpic

I know this sounds crazy, but I really miss doing barn chores. I miss mucking the fields. I miss harrowing the arena. I miss feeding.

Now, I know that my BO already has lots of help from the other girls who board at the barn and some of the kids who come to ride will help him as well. They always help him feed, they sit with him on his quad and throw out the hay, this includes my trainer as well. 

The most barn chores that I do is picking up Fly's poop in the tack isle and arenas or where ever she may poop. That, and I monitorthe gopher holes in Fly's field. 

When she was in the isolation paddock last year for 6 weeks, I mucked her paddock (though it was 1 acre, so much larger than a typical paddock), everyday, often twice a day on weekends. 

This hasn't been on my mind for awhile, but when I was putting Fly back in her field yesterday, I noticed that their field has recently been tidied up and poop has been cleaned up and put into a pile. So one of the other girls took care of it. I miss doing stuff like this. I get a lot of satisfaction just taking care of horses. If I could muck that their field every few days, I totally would. I just love having a spin and span clean field for horses to live in.

I really get excited just feeding horses. When I was at the old barn, I fed Fly every night of the week for 3 months straight. I loved tossing hay over for her and the other horses there, cutting hay bales, getting hay all over you, in your pockets, in your car haha. I loved filling her hay net every night. So Fly got to know me as not only her caretaker, but one of her main sources for food. I would get to the barn every single night right after work, mix and give her her grain, feed all the horses, muck Fly's paddock and then I would have my own dinner at the barn. On weekends, I would get there at like 7 or 8am and do barn chores and hang out all day, and not leave until 8 or 9pm at night. 

Got to know all the horses names, their personalities, etc. I really enjoyed it. But then of course at the old barn, because I was running the place, doing feed and mucking and doing barn chores really ate up my learning time and lesson time. So you can't have everything right? I know I'm in a MUCH better place and situation right now. If I never left the old barn, I would still be feeding and spending most of my time doing chores leaving me very little time for learning, reading and lessons.


----------



## Hoofpic

So I'm going to pick up a mounting block tonight. I REALLY need a two step. The one at the barn is just too high and I don't wanna have to bother with spinning it around every time.

One of the girls at the store suggested I get one of these from Walmart, if I dont want to pay $75 for an official mounting block. She said it works as she has had many customers get one.

I think it should be safe eh? Its $20.










This would also work. At walmart for $60.










And, folding stool for $22. Though only one step but I could do with it.


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## natisha

All would be fine but I'd go with #1, for price.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> All would be fine but I'd go with #1, for price.


Thanks. I was hoping for #1 as well simply because it has very good reviews online and is cheap.

I REALLY don't want to have to spend $75 on an "official" mounting block if I dont have to. 

Trainer says she doesnt mind me keeping the block in the arena and I will just pull it out before I ride.

Here is the $75 ones. What makes these so expensive? A 3 step is $140! Yikes.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I was hoping for #1 as well simply because it has very good reviews online and is cheap.
> 
> I REALLY don't want to have to spend $75 on an "official" mounting block if I dont have to.
> 
> Trainer says she doesnt mind me keeping the block in the arena and I will just pull it out before I ride.
> 
> Here is the $75 ones. What makes these so expensive? A 3 step is $140! Yikes.


I have one of those, 2 step ones. The main difference is they are rubber & horses can't wreck them if they walk over them. The #1 one has hard plastic sides but if put it away it will last.


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## Hoofpic

Heres a pic I took a few weeks ago.

Do you guys think she is still fat?


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I have one of those, 2 step ones. The main difference is they are rubber & horses can't wreck them if they walk over them. The #1 one has hard plastic sides but if put it away it will last.


They're rubber? Oh, must be a hard rubber.

I think the $20 one at Walmart should work. As long as Fly doesn't kick or walk into it


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## egrogan

Personally, I don't like all those openings on the Walmart one. Too many places for a foot- horse or human- to slip and get stuck in. I can just see my clutsy horse stepping over into it after I was on and getting it caught around her leg, dragging it with her. The benefit of the "real" mounting block is that there aren't a bunch of open spaces to get caught. 

I do think she looks chunky in the picture but it's not a great angle. A true confo shot would be better.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> They're rubber? Oh, must be a hard rubber.
> 
> I think the $20 one at Walmart should work. As long as Fly doesn't kick or walk into it


It takes a lot to beat them up. Mine get killed when someone forgets to put them away & the geldings use them as toys.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> It takes a lot to beat them up. Mine get killed when someone forgets to put them away & the geldings use them as toys.


Oh, are you referring to the $75 block or the walmart one that you use?


----------



## natisha

egrogan said:


> Personally, I don't like all those openings on the Walmart one. Too many places for a foot- horse or human- to slip and get stuck in. I can just see my clutsy horse stepping over into it after I was on and getting it caught around her leg, dragging it with her. The benefit of the "real" mounting block is that there aren't a bunch of open spaces to get caught.
> 
> I do think she looks chunky in the picture but it's not a great angle. A true confo shot would be better.


Yeah, there is that but Fly seems like she would be OK.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Personally, I don't like all those openings on the Walmart one. Too many places for a foot- horse or human- to slip and get stuck in. I can just see my clutsy horse stepping over into it after I was on and getting it caught around her leg, dragging it with her. The benefit of the "real" mounting block is that there aren't a bunch of open spaces to get caught.
> 
> I do think she looks chunky in the picture but it's not a great angle. A true confo shot would be better.


Ya it's not a great angle. What's the best angle, dead smack sideways of their barrel?

Well the first one in the walmart pics Ive posted, only has the openings on the front where the steps are. So chances of Fly getting her feet caught inbetween should be very low since ill be having her on the other end. I know it has a bit of opening on the sides all around, but they look low and when you put it in the arena, the sand should eat up that space.

I will at least go check it out tonight. Who knows, my big feet might be too much for it (though I highly doubt this will be the case).


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Oh, are you referring to the $75 block or the walmart one that you use?


I have both. No one has killed the expensive one.....yet.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, are you referring to the $75 block or the walmart one that you use?
> 
> 
> 
> I have both. No one has killed the expensive one.....yet.
Click to expand...

Oh wow, okay thats good to hear.


----------



## Hoofpic

These transition lenses are the best thing ever. Cant believe I went this many years before trying. Its so nice not having to constantly swap glasses.

I think Im a transition user for life especially once that technology comes out where the lenses are capable of turning back to clear as quickly as they do dark.

Thats my only gripe so far, but its minor.


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## greentree

If they can put a Pokémon figure where you are, you would think they could get the lenses connected to GPS to turn automatically when you go inside!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> If they can put a Pokémon figure where you are, you would think they could get the lenses connected to GPS to turn automatically when you go inside!


No kidding. But unfortunately, transitions have been the same technology for the past decade.


----------



## Dehda01

I don't know, I have had the Rubbermaid hard plastic ones shatter in the cold and with a horse kick when I was braiding with them. I have had horses freak out with the "horse" mounting blocks. I can take a picture of mine. It has huge scrape marks from horse feet- shod and not trampling it. I have had them use it as a pedestal. And it is over 15 yrs old. Takes a licking and keeps on ticking. I personally trust the horse ones a lot more.


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## greentree

Agree, Dehda!!!!

The horse ones are solid injection molded for a reason. They have no legs for a reason...if the horse makes a sudden shift, and you are on a legged object, and one leg sinks...


----------



## carshon

My horses knock over my mounting block all of the time. I have a 2 step and a 3 step one. I have seen the cheap ones collapse or sink as others have said and have seen people slip through the holes.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I don't know, I have had the Rubbermaid hard plastic ones shatter in the cold and with a horse kick when I was braiding with them. I have had horses freak out with the "horse" mounting blocks. I can take a picture of mine. It has huge scrape marks from horse feet- shod and not trampling it. I have had them use it as a pedestal. And it is over 15 yrs old. Takes a licking and keeps on ticking. I personally trust the horse ones a lot more.


Hmm I see. I'm going to take a look at the Walmart one this afternoon before heading out to the barn to see. 

Is it common for horses to freak out over mounting blocks?


----------



## Prairie

Why buy a mounting block since your barn already has 2? Wouldn’t it be better to save your money tostart or add to a horse emergency fund for those unexpected expenses?


----------



## Tazzie

If you're adamant about buying a mounting block, I would absolutely go with an actual mounting block. Remember what we all talked about a while ago? The get what you pay for? My big, three step mounting block has been used and abused for roughly 4 years. It lives in a trailer so while it's not out in the sun, it gets HOT in that trailer just sitting out there. Izzie has kicked it, my kids climb it, and my husband has thrown it. It won't crumple and break like one of those could. I guess if you want to keep paying $20 every year or two that's your prerogative, but I would rather pay the bigger cost upfront and be set for quite some time (if I ever need to buy a new one.) My former boss in Michigan has the same mounting block she's had for YEARS. It's just a small two step one. Nothing fancy. I started riding there at 14 and it was there. I'm 29 now, and just used it this past May when I hauled Izzie up to show there. You really do get what you pay for...

I am glad to hear you sold the Myler though. That's great. And that picture is hard to judge anything regarding Fly except that she is a very, very cute horse!


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Why buy a mounting block since your barn already has 2? Wouldn’t it be better to save your money tostart or add to a horse emergency fund for those unexpected expenses?


Because the ones at the barn are 3 steps and I would have to spin the block around each time just to get on Fly. I mean, I guess it's not a big deal to have to do this. All I would need to do is spin the block around 180 degrees and get on the block by backing up onto the two steps.

Dont get me wrong, do I NEED a two step? No but it sure would make things easier for me.

Decision made, you've convinced me to hold off on the 2 step block for now and see if I can work and manage with the 3 steps at the barn.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Because the ones at the barn are 3 steps and I would have to spin the block around each time just to get on Fly. I mean, I guess it's not a big deal to have to do this. All I would need to do is spin the block around 180 degrees and get on the block by backing up onto the two steps.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, do I NEED a two step? No but it sure would make things easier for me.
> 
> Decision made, you've convinced me to hold off on the 2 step block for now and see if I can work and manage with the 3 steps at the barn.



do you mean that mounting Fly from the top of the 3 step is TOO high? how is that? I mean, if it's too high to reach the stirrup, just through your right leg over, as if you were mounting bareback, then pick up each stirrup.


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Because the ones at the barn are 3 steps and I would have to spin the block around each time just to get on Fly. I mean, I guess it's not a big deal to have to do this. All I would need to do is spin the block around 180 degrees and get on the block by backing up onto the two steps.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, do I NEED a two step? No but it sure would make things easier for me.
> 
> Decision made, you've convinced me to hold off on the 2 step block for now and see if I can work and manage with the 3 steps at the barn.


At all but one barn I've ALWAYS needed to move the block. It really shouldn't be a big deal to move it around.


----------



## Dehda01

It isn't hugely uncommon for horses to freak out over mounting blocks... But I start a lot of green horses, and fix a lot of problem horses so I have babies and silly horses walking over things a bit more than the average person with a single quiet horse. By the time I am done, or with a baby who, I personally, set up properly to know that mounting blocks are no big deal, they don't blink at them... But many people will train their horses how to be scared or walk off at mounting blocks simply because they don't know what they are doing and how to reward proper behavior. So my mounting block take a beating until the horses have learned/relearned good manners. 

My baby who I am breaking right now never questioned the mounting block, but does occasionally sidestep into it as she is learning to carrying my body weight during mounting and our first few steps away from it.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Why move the mounting block? Why not just reposition the **** horse?


----------



## Prairie

Really moving a 3 step mounting block 180* is NBD. I have to carry ours in and out of the trailer to our arena, probably a good 300 feet, if I want to mount up in the arena to work in it---and that's after I set up the 8+ jumps. If I'm riding out, I just lead the horse over to the trailer after I get the mounting block out. I'm close to twice your age to boot and usually ride daily so I'm pretty sure a man in the his prime can turn it 180* easily.


----------



## tinyliny

i rode last weekend a horse that I had not every ridden before . the lady said he was good matured but green, and I'd have to agree. it took 15 minutes just to get him to line up at the mounting block, since most riders he'd had mounted from the ground, something I am unable to do.

I used the technique I was taught by my trainer wherein the person never moves the mounting block, they stay in one position, have hold of only one (the same rein) at all times, and by moving the hrose around, they get it to line up. this is not how I would START training for mounting block use, but if the horse has some familiarity with it, it helps them become used to doing it, and you never chase them around with the mounting block. I think I posted a link to a video I made years ago on this. the video is of poor quality sound, and extremely amateurish.


----------



## EliRose

tinyliny said:


> i rode last weekend a horse that I had not every ridden before . the lady said he was good matured but green, and I'd have to agree. it took 15 minutes just to get him to line up at the mounting block, since most riders he'd had mounted from the ground, something I am unable to do.
> 
> I used the technique I was taught by my trainer wherein the person never moves the mounting block, they stay in one position, have hold of only one (the same rein) at all times, and by moving the hrose around, they get it to line up. this is not how I would START training for mounting block use, but if the horse has some familiarity with it, it helps them become used to doing it, and you never chase them around with the mounting block. I think I posted a link to a video I made years ago on this. the video is of poor quality sound, and extremely amateurish.


I don't think Hoofpic was chasing Fly around with the block, but not wanting to change the position of the block/horse in the first place to be more comfortable.


----------



## Prairie

I suspect Hoofpic is trying to mount from side of the mounting block on the second step, rather than climb up to third and just swing a leg over, sitting down, and putting both feet in the stirrups. For some reason the trainer thinks he should stick his left foot in the stirrup before mounting from the block, which is not the normal use of a 3 step mounting block. Even on our 18.2 Belgian hitch gelding I could just swing my right leg over from the 3 step mounting block easily and scoot up there. He took up lots of leg!


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## Dehda01

My old 3 step mounting block was 21". It was not tall enough for me to hike over a 18h horse, not that I would ever be comfortable except on a very few of my very broke horses. The 18h gelding was SQUIRRELLY!!! I needed my foot in the stirrup every second I was mounting him for safety reasons. 

I personally do feel that a beginner should be taught to mount from a block the routine way with their foot in the stirrup in case the horse was to leave. Mounting the horse is one of the most unbalanced positions we are put into while on the horse, until we are situated. I was never taught to hike up in pony club or from very experienced trainers.


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## Hoofpic

I have good news and bad news!

I will start with the bad news. It's all my fault! All this time I never had my thumb far back enough in Flys mouth when asking her to open to put her bit in! I'm sorry Fly! I finally discovered it today when working on bridling with her again that my thumb needs to be way back on the side of the mouth.

Now the good news. As soon as I did this, applied a bit of pressure downwards, she opened up bigger than ever. Not as good as a school horse, but 100 times better than previously. Enough room to slip the bit in quickly. 

I ended up bridling and unbridling her about 14-15 times today. She no longer fusses, tosses her head back when I unbridle her and she feels the bridle come off her ears. I got her to keep her head still and she's not perfect (as in school horse like) when it comes to her mouth play on the bit as I unbridle her, but if you saw a video, she is 100x better now after today. I was thinking about it today and said to myself, you know what? I dont need her to be 100% perfect and have her mouth 100% frozen as I take the bit out. I just want her to no longer toss her head back and really cut back on the mouth play (constant opening and closing of her mouth). And she did that. 

Maybe next time I will take a video for you guys. I didnt take a video yet because its a bit busy at the barn this week with the kids day camps (today was the last day), and I wanted you guys to see the end result, because I want to show you guys that I can do this properly and have Fly stand still and be calm when unbridled.

I taught her today verbal ques. As I would have the bit come up to her mouth , I would slide my thumb in and say OPEN. Now Im not sure (and cant tell) if she caught on with the verbal que, but how can I tell?

I also used the same verbal que OPEN when Im about to slide the bit out and she is calm, I say OPEN and out the bit goes, slowly and doesnt hit her teeth. Now, how can I make Fly know the verbal que a lot more directly when I say OPEN as im about to slip the bit out? Cause I dont think shes caught on yet. She will open a bit, just enough for the bit to slide out but sometimes as the bit comes out, her teeth will rub against the bit. Not bang, but rub. 

When I was unbridling her i would say

What a huge difference after today. I made sure to give her over the top praise each time and when I was done, she let out a bigger than ever sigh. So thats a great sign. 

Have a lesson in the morning and I look forward to seeing how she is after today.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because the ones at the barn are 3 steps and I would have to spin the block around each time just to get on Fly. I mean, I guess it's not a big deal to have to do this. All I would need to do is spin the block around 180 degrees and get on the block by backing up onto the two steps.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, do I NEED a two step? No but it sure would make things easier for me.
> 
> Decision made, you've convinced me to hold off on the 2 step block for now and see if I can work and manage with the 3 steps at the barn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> do you mean that mounting Fly from the top of the 3 step is TOO high? how is that? I mean, if it's too high to reach the stirrup, just through your right leg over, as if you were mounting bareback, then pick up each stirrup.
Click to expand...

Correct. When I stand on the 3rd step, its too high and Im not only towering over Fly but I have to step down just to get my foot into the stirrup lol. So thats why the 2 step is better. But if I step onto the 2nd step, then I have a good foot to scretch my entire body over, which feels cumbersome and awkward. 

My trainer doesnt want me getting on Fly by getting on if I was going bareback. She said, always mount by putting the inside foot in the stirrup before swinging your other leg over. Dont get me wrong, I would love (and would be okay) with just swinging my leg over, then putting BOTH feet in the stirrups.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because the ones at the barn are 3 steps and I would have to spin the block around each time just to get on Fly. I mean, I guess it's not a big deal to have to do this. All I would need to do is spin the block around 180 degrees and get on the block by backing up onto the two steps.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, do I NEED a two step? No but it sure would make things easier for me.
> 
> Decision made, you've convinced me to hold off on the 2 step block for now and see if I can work and manage with the 3 steps at the barn.
> 
> 
> 
> At all but one barn I've ALWAYS needed to move the block. It really shouldn't be a big deal to move it around.
Click to expand...

You're right. It shouldn't be a big deal for me to spin the block around.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Why move the mounting block? Why not just reposition the **** horse?


Because the block is pretty close to the end of the barn and there is not a lot of space to walk a horse though the back. Fly actually spooked once already as she got close to that side once.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Why does your trainer not want you to mount bareback-style (aka no feet in stirrup)?


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## Dehda01

Because mounting bareback style, while bareback... When you fall you don't have tack to get tangled in. Fairly safe. 

When you mount bareback style, when tacked, there is tack to get tangled into when something goes wrong. Particularly with a western saddle! At least when you have one foot in the stirrup, you can maintain a bit of control over the situation when your weight is half in the saddle. 

Please remember that the OP is a very beginner rider, who is not coordinated with his body. I would be concerned about him accidentally kicking her with a leg or (because she is also a GREEN horse- but a good horse) walking off and he has difficulty getting his bearing.

Once a rider is more advanced, they can start being lazy about proper handling of horses... And hopefully they know enough about body language to stay out of danger. But beginner riders MUST be educated about safe handling of horses. My biggest accidents with horses are when I get a bit sloppy about safe handling and it bites me in the a$$.


----------



## Hoofpic

Im exhausted. Looking forward to the show tomorrow. Im so excited!!! I get to see my very first showmanship competition! Will be a long day. Need to be on the road for 5am lol.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Im exhausted. Looking forward to the show tomorrow. Im so excited!!! I get to see my very first showmanship competition! Will be a long day. Need to be on the road for 5am lol.


Take a lunch unless you like show food. Have fun.


----------



## Hoofpic

These kill pen pages on Facebook really make up emotionally distressed and upset. But I can't stop re-visiting them to see who has been safe/sold to the viewers off their Facebook page. The mare and foals REALLY upset me.

I've seen photos of terrified to death yearlings! Poor babies. This just makes me so upset. People can be just so cruel.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> Why does your trainer not want you to mount bareback-style (aka no feet in stirrup)?


Dehda01 explained it perfectly. Thanks Dehda01.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Take a lunch unless you like show food. Have fun.


Yes I bought a whole bag of food and will stuff it in my backpack. Need food for the road as well, will be spending 5 hours on the road if not more.


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## Hoofpic

I have to say that I now notice a HUGE difference when picking out Fly's hooves. Now that the BO farrier, took off the the excess sole on the outer edge. It is much more balanced and easier to pick out.


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## Hoofpic

Am I the only person who loves watching horses eat watermelon? Its funny. I gave Fly watermelon twice and she ate it. Usually just a couple slices but without the rine. 

This video gets me every time.


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## natisha

I offered watermelon to 7 horses. Only 3 would eat it, the others wouldn't even try.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I offered watermelon to 7 horses. Only 3 would eat it, the others wouldn't even try.


I think its the colour. I know watermelon is either a love or hate with horses.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> These kill pen pages on Facebook really make up emotionally distressed and upset. But I can't stop re-visiting them to see who has been safe/sold to the viewers off their Facebook page. The mare and foals REALLY upset me.
> 
> I've seen photos of terrified to death yearlings! Poor babies. This just makes me so upset. People can be just so cruel.


There have been occasions that I felt the same about THIS thread, lolol! 

Have a good time at the show!!


----------



## Hoofpic

I just got here. Long drive. 2.5 hours. Not looking forward to the trek back cause there will be more traffic.


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## Hoofpic

Am I allowed to post videos from the show?

I really enjoyed the Western Pleasure.

I did NOT enjoy the showmanship as much as I thought I would. I thought I was really into it, but after seeing it live, meh. Liberty is much more interesting to me.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well I'm back home. I'm exhausted. I really wanted to go to the barn afterwards, but I was too hot and tired.

The show was pretty good. There was no exhibits or vendors, as this was a pure showing show. It didn't get busy until the afternoon when they had barrels, pole bending, flags, etc. I guess the morning events just didn't turn out much interest. I was the only spectator there for the first two hours this morning. I thought to myself, okay this is just a small event, but I didn't expect it that dead in the morning haha.

There was a few paints there, so good to see the paints being supported. One paint really stood out to me, she was like a orange paint. I know there is no such thing but her spots were so bright and glowed under the sun. Was very pretty. I got some great pics and videos and will post them.

The ONE question that really stands out and I noticed right away is, what's up with every rider only holding onto their reins with one hand while doing the western Pleasure, western horsemanship, etc?

Like I mentioned earlier. Now that I got to see showmanship live in person, I don't have the interest in it, that I thought I did. That's okay. I really REALLY liked the Western pleasure events, the pole bending and the flag picking.

There surwere some REALLY talented riders in this show. WOW. Pole bending, barrels, flags picking are pretty much pieces of cowboy challenge and I would love to be able to do this stuff with Fly. But seeing these riders (many kids), I would imagine how many hours and years in the saddle, it's taken them to get them to where they are today.

I sat a bit back in the stands. It was so hot today and I wanted to be in the shade. That's where I got my pics from. But I much prefer closer (and once I did get to the ground level) in the afternoon for a bit, I got to see things that I wouldn't notice when sitting from a distance.

So basically all in all (in the order the events went).

*Showmanship* - It was okay but I'm not interested in it anymore. Just not my thing. I don't know what it is, but something about it just rubs me the wrong way. Glad to see it live to realize this. To me, showmanship is basically the haltered version of liberty since it is all on-line work. But liberty just interests me much more. 

*Costume Pleasure* - not really my thing, but I have nothing against it.

*open Pleasure Driving* - different. Not really my thing, but it was something that I've never seen before. 

*Western Pleasure* - I really REALLY enjoyed this.

*Horsemanship Pleasure* - It was pretty much the same as the Western Pleasure events. I didn't even know it went on until one of the ladies working there told me. When I first saw this on the schedule, I was intrigued to see what it exactly consisted of, but it was pretty much the same as the Western Pleasure.

*Western Pleasure Pairs* - this I really enjoyed seeing siblings doing their transitions on their horses, right next to each other, but synced simultaneously with each other. I'd image this is a lot harder than most realize.
Pole bending - LOVE THIS!

*Barrels, flag picking* - Same, love this!

*Key Hole* - I missed part of this, but didn't quite understand how it worked.

*Egg & Spoon* - always fun watching this.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> / I'm back home.
> 
> The ONE question that really stands out and I noticed right away is, what's up with every rider only holding onto their reins with one hand while doing the western Pleasure, western horsemanship,


True western riding is done with one hand, trained western horses neck rein.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> True western riding is done with one hand, trained western horses neck rein.


Oh. Then why are we taught to use both hands? So I will pretty much never see any participant use both hands in a show?


----------



## Dehda01

Because you aren't advanced enough to understand the concepts yet. And honestly, neither is your mare.


----------



## Dehda01

Green horses that are still in snaffle or mecate are still shown in two hands. But once they graduate to the curb, a rider must ride with one hand. There are age limits but I won't bore you with rules. They can vary with local shows... But rated shows have straight rules that have been agreed across the board.


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## Dehda01

In order to be ready to ride one handed, you and your horse must understand neck reining, leg and seat aids and lateral control over your horse.


----------



## 6gun Kid

You are taught to use both hands because your horse is in a snaffle. The only time you will see western riders show using 2 hands is if they are going in a snaffle. A finished western horse is shown using one hand.


----------



## tinyliny

6gun Kid said:


> You are taught to use both hands because your horse is in a snaffle. The only time you will see western riders show using 2 hands is if they are going in a snaffle. A finished western horse is shown using one hand.


it should be that way, but look at Western Dressage.
I see a lot of western riders use two hands. maybe not showing, though. dont some WP riders use a snaffle with two hands ? am I misremembering that. ?
they look like they holding onto the handlebars of a wheelbarrow!


----------



## EliRose

tinyliny said:


> it should be that way, but look at Western Dressage.
> I see a lot of western riders use two hands. maybe not showing, though. dont some WP riders use a snaffle with two hands ? am I misremembering that. ?
> they look like they holding onto the handlebars of a wheelbarrow!


On young horses, yes they direct rein with snaffles. Many ride two handed outside of the show pen.


----------



## palogal

tinyliny said:


> it should be that way, but look at Western Dressage.
> I see a lot of western riders use two hands. maybe not showing, though. dont some WP riders use a snaffle with two hands ? am I misremembering that. ?
> they look like they holding onto the handlebars of a wheelbarrow!



Western Dressage riders use with two hands in snaffle bits (as is the rule in English Dressage) or one hand with a curb but they have to start and finish the same way.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> In order to be ready to ride one handed, you and your horse must understand neck reining, leg and seat aids and lateral control over your horse.


Oh, that makes sense now. That would take many years I'd imagine.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> You are taught to use both hands because your horse is in a snaffle. The only time you will see western riders show using 2 hands is if they are going in a snaffle. A finished western horse is shown using one hand.


Oh okay thanks.


----------



## palogal

Don't sweat it hoofpic....my darling husband (6gunkid) and I constantly argue over what a 'finished' horse is


----------



## Hoofpic

Some pics.

Mods: Am I allowed to post videos? I took some of some riders that stood out to me in terms of their posture etc.

Pics.

Bright and early, right at opening. I was the only spectator there.


















First showmanship group.


























Hey look, a guy is in it! 










In the way back, someone warming up in the outdoor arena. He was at least 500ft from me when I took this.


























Check out this roundpen. Never seen one like it. Also trailers and horseys getting ready.


----------



## Hoofpic

More showmanship prep. Very nice looking paint.


























































What kind of lead is that?










Here is the costume event. Not my thing, but was interesting to say the least.


















As you can see, it was massive.










Some pleasure event participants warming up.










Now, I caught this the last second. This person got on with a chair lol. She steped onto the chair and then on the horse. Isn't a chair like that a safety concern? 










The youngest participant. What breed horse is that? I immediately thought part Appy?


----------



## Hoofpic

When I saw this driving event, I immediately thought of Greentree.










































The Western Pleasure event. Must be amazing riding in an arena THIS BIG!


























Wanna bet these two are chatting about who's horse is cuter? lol










Now I was watching these two (looked like geldings) who stood so quietly with their heads down.










Western Pleasure for kids. Love those paints. I have a video of this, can I post it?


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I can't really tell in that picture what lead it is but it's either a leather halter with a leather lead or a leather halter and butterfly lead. They're very common in showmanship or Inhand classes


----------



## EliRose

That horse with the young girl is probably a Paint.


----------



## Dehda01

The horse is a paint. His markings look flowery do to the Sabine gene.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I can't really tell in that picture what lead it is but it's either a leather halter with a leather lead or a leather halter and butterfly lead. They're very common in showmanship or Inhand classes


Thanks, interesting looking lead that's forsure. But I wouldn't have even known it existed if I didn't go yesterday.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> That horse with the young girl is probably a Paint.





Dehda01 said:


> The horse is a paint. His markings look flowery do to the Sabine gene.


Oh, didn't know that. Never would have guessed that horse is a paint.

Also, I really enjoyed the poles event but they didn't have many and it was in the far back arena so I could only see it from a distance. I got to see the concept of it and really liked it. Again, very much reminded me of cowboy challenge in a way. I wish my barn had access to that many poles. It's amazing how many poles are needed just to set up all that stuff. I have a pic of the formation of how they set things up. I was watching the crew and it took a good 30mins just to set it all up. Maybe 4 or 5 people.


----------



## Dehda01

Was supposed to say SABINO gene. Darn phone.


----------



## Dehda01

I find showmanship as dull as watching paint dry. Hated it as a kid. Can't stand showing it now. But understand its place. It allows a kid who doesn't have a fancy halter horse to show and be judged on how well they SHOW and put the horse together, not actually on the horse's conformation. It isn't anything like liberty.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I find showmanship as dull as watching paint dry. Hated it as a kid. Can't stand showing it now. But understand its place. It allows a kid who doesn't have a fancy halter horse to show and be judged on how well they SHOW and put the horse together, not actually on the horse's conformation. It isn't anything like liberty.


Maybe that would explain why there was no turnout for it yesterday lol. jk

I found the showmanship boring as well. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way. I thought I would have big interest in it but turns out I don't. It just felt like an event that you would see more in a dog show, than a horse show. 

I know that sounds ironic, coming from someone who has big interest in liberty. But when I compare this to Parelli's liberty demonstration a few months ago, that liberty clinic was much more engaging for me.

I just can't get over how little slack is in the lead from the snap at all times. The horse can't ever lower their head, can't look around. The movements and all feel too robotic by the book. And the first thing that I thought of was the word, micromanaging. Is there any or lots of that going on in showmanship?

Also, I would imagine that it would take hundreds of hours to get a horse to that degree or showmanship?


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Maybe that would explain why there was no turnout for it yesterday lol. jk
> 
> I found the showmanship boring as well. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way. I thought I would have big interest in it but turns out I don't. It just felt like an event that you would see more in a dog show, than a horse show.
> 
> I know that sounds ironic, coming from someone who has big interest in liberty. But when I compare this to Parelli's liberty demonstration a few months ago, that liberty clinic was much more engaging for me.
> 
> I just can't get over how little slack is in the lead from the snap at all times. The horse can't ever lower their head, can't look around. The movements and all feel too robotic by the book. And the first thing that I thought of was the word, micromanaging. Is there any or lots of that going on in showmanship?
> 
> Also, I would imagine that it would take hundreds of hours to get a horse to that degree or showmanship?


It takes hundreds of hours to get a horse to any degree of trainedness ,hoofpic. 

Can you explain how that is ironic, please? It is perfectly linear to me.....

And, thst is part of the draw of Natural Horsemanship ......that it seems more exciting than endless slow circles at a walk and slow trot, and working on getting all of your horses feet perfectly square, ears up, etc.
At our open shows here, the showmanship classes a HUGE, and take forever....but it is geared toward the cute little girls.....


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Maybe that would explain why there was no turnout for it yesterday lol. jk
> 
> I found the showmanship boring as well. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way. I thought I would have big interest in it but turns out I don't. It just felt like an event that you would see more in a dog show, than a horse show.
> 
> I know that sounds ironic, coming from someone who has big interest in liberty. But when I compare this to Parelli's liberty demonstration a few months ago, that liberty clinic was much more engaging for me.
> 
> I just can't get over how little slack is in the lead from the snap at all times. The horse can't ever lower their head, can't look around. The movements and all feel too robotic by the book. And the first thing that I thought of was the word, micromanaging. Is there any or lots of that going on in showmanship?
> 
> Also, I would imagine that it would take hundreds of hours to get a horse to that degree or showmanship?


It's a horse show. The horse doesn't need to be looking around, lowering their heads, rubbing their legs or anything else. A judge needs to see the horse at its best & you never know when the judge may be looking. Anything else looks sloppy.
It takes practice but any horse with proper training can stand still, walk & trot without fussing for the 15 minutes or so that it takes for a class. Still it's not easy getting a horse to put each foot exactly where you want it at a given time. Try it yourself & maybe you'll get a new appreciation for the classes.
Parelli has a demonstration, you went to a horse show-where people show their horses-big difference.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> It takes hundreds of hours to get a horse to any degree of trainedness ,hoofpic.
> 
> Can you explain how that is ironic, please? It is perfectly linear to me.....
> 
> And, thst is part of the draw of Natural Horsemanship ......that it seems more exciting than endless slow circles at a walk and slow trot, and working on getting all of your horses feet perfectly square, ears up, etc.
> At our open shows here, the showmanship classes a HUGE, and take forever....but it is geared toward the cute little girls.....


I never said anything was ironic. Why do you think the shows where you are are geared towards the litte girls? Cause they have more time than the working adult?


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> It's a horse show. The horse doesn't need to be looking around, lowering their heads, rubbing their legs or anything else. A judge needs to see the horse at its best & you never know when the judge may be looking. Anything else looks sloppy.
> It takes practice but any horse with proper training can stand still, walk & trot without fussing for the 15 minutes or so that it takes for a class. Still it's not easy getting a horse to put each foot exactly where you want it at a given time. Try it yourself & maybe you'll get a new appreciation for the classes.
> Parelli has a demonstration, you went to a horse show-where people show their horses-big difference.


Don't worry, I have an appreciation for what I saw yesterday. I know it's extremely hard to get to that stage. I see a place for showmanship, I do see where it attracts people.


----------



## Dehda01

The horses really shouldn't be looking around. They should be focused on their handler. That is their JOB. I don't mind idle curiosity outside of the ring, but a show horse needs to be focusing on their JOB in the ring. I spend hundreds of hours preparing for a single class and then can easily spend thousands of dollars (sometimes in a single show) campaigning a horse. 

Showmanship is often geared towards children and teenagers. Some adults do it. But it is more a childs game. They need to be aware of where the judge is at all time and ON for the judge whenever the judge is in the ring, but particularly when the judge is looking at the horse. There should not be slack in lead, that would be sloppy.


----------



## Dehda01

Natural horsemanship and traditional ringworm often can be very different creatures. 

Liberty is this magical connection between a horse and man. This takes an enormous amount of time and the ability to ready body language and get the respect of your horse. Most people will never be able or willing to put the time and education that is necessary to make it happen. It is one thing to have a VERY experienced horseman) like Parelli or Guy McLean create a liberty horse and another for a beginner to attempt to. Beginners need to be focused on how to safely learn basic horsemanship first... Learn how to ride... And then once they have learned how to be safe horse people and have a few years of knowledge under their belt... Then it is safe to consider Liberty work. But until then beginners just get in dangerous situations, get frustrated and never actually ride a horse if they drive towards this need of Liberty work.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> The horses really shouldn't be looking around. They should be focused on their handler. That is their JOB. I don't mind idle curiosity outside of the ring, but a show horse needs to be focusing on their JOB in the ring. I spend hundreds of hours preparing for a single class and then can easily spend thousands of dollars (sometimes in a single show) campaigning a horse.
> 
> Showmanship is often geared towards children and teenagers. Some adults do it. But it is more a childs game. They need to be aware of where the judge is at all time and ON for the judge whenever the judge is in the ring, but particularly when the judge is looking at the horse. There should not be slack in lead, that would be sloppy.


I can see how showmanship would seen as more for children.

So Im guessing that these people pretty much lead and work with their horses like as if they were showing all the time?


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I never said anything was ironic. Why do you think the shows where you are are geared towards the litte girls? Cause they have more time than the working adult?


She did not say that they were geared towards little girls, just that showmanship draws them. Open shows usually have tons of adults AND children.

And you've been away from school too long if you think most kids have much more time than working adults, lol.


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I can see how showmanship would seen as more for children.
> 
> So Im guessing that these people pretty much lead and work with their horses like as if they were showing all the time?


No, they don't. Besides demanding that the horses behave. They generally don't have shanks on the horses 24/7, especially as these are mostly kid horses.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Natural horsemanship and traditional ringworm often can be very different creatures.
> 
> Liberty is this magical connection between a horse and man. This takes an enormous amount of time and the ability to ready body language and get the respect of your horse. Most people will never be able or willing to put the time and education that is necessary to make it happen. It is one thing to have a VERY experienced horseman) like Parelli or Guy McLean create a liberty horse and another for a beginner to attempt to. Beginners need to be focused on how to safely learn basic horsemanship first... Learn how to ride... And then once they have learned how to be safe horse people and have a few years of knowledge under their belt... Then it is safe to consider Liberty work. But until then beginners just get in dangerous situations, get frustrated and never actually ride a horse if they drive towards this need of Liberty work.


This is why Im glad that you guys told and convinced me to stop working with my outside trainer. She knew liberty was where my interest was and she was teaching me it. She kept telling me that liberty on the ground will transfer over to in the saddle. To her, spending time in the saddle on Fly wasn't even in her picture for Fly and I. If I wanted that connection with Fly, I need to do it on the ground first, otherwise there will be nothing there if I get on her.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> As for the lady mounting from the chair...
> 
> When you've been riding long enough, your balance is good enough, and your horse is broke enough, it isn't an issue. It's an issue when your horse is greener than grass, and you're even greener than that.
> 
> I've mounted my best friend's QH mare from an overturned water bucket (made by cutting a 55-gallon food-grade barrel in half). I've mounted my gelding from a post that was barely big enough for my one foot. I've also mounted him from a boulder in the middle of a bush. BUT, I've been riding longer than you and I know my horse (and the other horses I've ridden) better than you know Fly.


Makes sense.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I don't show, and I definitely don't know much about western pleasure...but I don't think that's what was being shown in the video...
> 
> am I wrong???


Sorry, like Drafty mentioned, I got them mixed up. That was the horsemanship class. The western pleasure I did take a couple videos of the riders. I will post them later. 

Both stood out to me because they had noticably different comformations. The girl came in first place and her back positioning really stood out to me. I want to see what you guys think. At first, I almost thought she was leaning more back than straight. 

I really enjoyed both the western pleasure and horsemanship classes.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, you need find a good book on showing horses so you understand what each class is and how it is judged. Also look on the internet for the various classes under a breed, probably Paints would interest you since Fly is a pinto. 


Horsemanship classes are a world apart from Western Pleasure----In horsemanship, the rider is being judged and in WP the horse is judged.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I never said anything was ironic. Why do you think the shows where you are are geared towards the litte girls? Cause they have more time than the working adult?


You said:

I know that sounds ironic, coming from someone who has big interest in liberty. But when I compare this to Parelli's liberty demonstration a few months ago, that liberty clinic was much more engaging for me.

Showmanship is the class with 42 girls, ranging from age 6 up to about 15, at our shows. It is extremely popular because it is what is taught in 4-H.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

In Australia led classes and horsemanship whatever is very popular mostly with adults and atleast 40% being men.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You said:
> 
> I know that sounds ironic, coming from someone who has big interest in liberty. But when I compare this to Parelli's liberty demonstration a few months ago, that liberty clinic was much more engaging for me.
> 
> Showmanship is the class with 42 girls, ranging from age 6 up to about 15, at our shows. It is extremely popular because it is what is taught in 4-H.


Sorry, I'm confused.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoof pic, rather than ask for critiques of riders, you should be trying to figure out why the judge placed the class as he did for your own education. .


That's true, but I need to learn the scoring system first and how riders are judged. As I attend more shows, I think I will learn quickly. 

I'm not wanting to critique other riders, but just to get thoughts on them. Sure, I would love to go to these shows with someone or a trainer who has been to them before and can pinpoint and explain things to me more on an in-depth level as we see them. But because I don't have that luxury, I ask others for feedback. You guys have been to these shows before, yesterday was my very first one. 

Because I can watch and observe these riders all I want. But I won't be able to determine a REALLY good rider to one who still good but is has flaws. I won't be able to gauge how experienced a rider is or what their strengths are. Remember, I'm a visual learner, so when I have things pointed out to me visually, I learn more effectively and quicker.


----------



## Prairie

There's a big difference between taking pictures to send to daughters so the girls can see the show too and posting a video of someone on the internet and asking for a critique. Also forum rules don't allow critiques of someone beside yourself without their permission.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Ok bud, time to get back where you need to be! You on your horse, with your mind in the middle!


----------



## jaydee

*Moderating*
Some videos and some posts relating to those videos have been removed from this thread because they really do cross over into a 'grey area' of what the forum doesn't allow, especially as they're mostly non-professional riders and the videos aren't being posted as a general example of something in a thread that would be considered more 'educational' but only being posted for critique of a specific rider
Apologies to those of you that posted in good faith
Thank you to those of you that reported the posts because you didn't feel they were in line with the forum rules


----------



## Dehda01

It is mean and cruel to pick apart a rider on the Internet.... Especially when they aren't asking to be judged or have their rides stay in perpetuity on the Internet. Taking an experienced rider with you to discuss or having your trainer look at the videos is one thing... But talking on anonymous forums is just mean. 

I like to place riders in my head and then see how the judge places them... Though sometimes the judge will miss a bobble or vice versa.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Ok bud, time to get back where you need to be! You on your horse, with your mind in the middle!


Okay.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> It is mean and cruel to pick apart a rider on the Internet.... Especially when they aren't asking to be judged or have their rides stay in perpetuity on the Internet. Taking an experienced rider with you to discuss or having your trainer look at the videos is one thing... But talking on anonymous forums is just mean.
> 
> I like to place riders in my head and then see how the judge places them... Though sometimes the judge will miss a bobble or vice versa.


I wasn't doing it to be mean to the riders. I did it so that I can learn. But I will only post pics or videos if I know the rider personally and have their consent. Which my partner (who fell off a couple weeks ago), falls in this category.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> There's a big difference between taking pictures to send to daughters so the girls can see the show too and posting a video of someone on the internet and asking for a critique. Also forum rules don't allow critiques of someone beside yourself without their permission.


Okay I understand.


----------



## Hoofpic

This is completely random and OT I know, but I've really only have one local friend from the past few years and over the past few months, I started to really question on whether he is a friend. Just recently, it has hit me that he really is no friend. 

Communication is a two way street and I've noticed that he really only gets in touch with me when he needs a favor from me. There have countless been times where his other so called "friends" bailed on him when he needs help and I was always the ONLY one left standing there to help him. I was always there to help him when he needed it the most. Always. Every single time. I went out of my way to make things work and make things happen for him. Otherwise, if he doesn't need favors from me, he ignores me. If I need a favor from him, nope he ignores me! I've been used and taken advantage by friends before and this is nothing new to me. Besides, I can't stand when people say that they will call you back and they don't. If you're not going to call me back, then don't say you will. I can't be bothered with people like him. This is one of my biggest pet peeves. I will ditch friends so quick from this alone.

So over the past couple weeks I've thought long and hard about it, and what him and I have in common. Nothing. Exactly nothing. We don't even share any hobbies or interests, not a single one. So I've decided to move on and no longer talk to him. I'm best off focusing on making friends in the equine world. He will contact me in a month or two when he needs another favor from me, but I will ignore him.


----------



## SEAmom

Just go worry about getting better at riding your horse.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

It's easy to burn bridges, but not as easy to build them.


----------



## tinyliny

it's good to see that a friendship is not really a friendship , but a "useship". just remember what Ann Landers said, NO body can take advantage of you unless you let them. so, it's good that you have some clarity about how to handle the next time this person thinks they can use you for free.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> it's good to see that a friendship is not really a friendship , but a "useship". just remember what Ann Landers said, NO body can take advantage of you unless you let them. so, it's good that you have some clarity about how to handle the next time this person thinks they can use you for free.


Friendships need communication from both people. I don't need to put up with someone who wants to pretend to be a friend of mine but really isn't. These people aren't worth my time. Even though I don't have any other friends, that's okay.


----------



## Hoofpic

I just watched a big horse rescue of 8 emaciated horses trailered from hours away into a big rescue center on Facebook. I love checking in with the rescue centers on Facebook, reading what these amazing spirited people do make my day. The people who run these operations are amazing, we don't have enough of them.

I still would like to visit a rescue center near me sometime before the winter hits. I want to experience the atmosphere and what it's like. I hear they are really sad to be in. I mean, I get so emotionally upset, distressed and worked up just from watching videos of emaciated horses. How am I going to handle being in a rescue center?


----------



## EliRose

Maybe you should talk to him about it first . . . Like you said, communication.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Maybe you should talk to him about it first . . . Like you said, communication.


I have. This wasn't an overnight thing. I started noticing things really take a dip about a year ago, then a few months ago was when that gut feeling really sunk in.


----------



## Hoofpic

I had to donate some money ($25) to one of the sick emaciated mares that was brought in last week from the kill pen. She was very sick and went down in her pen. She was pulled from the auction because she was so sick. I felt so bad reading her story. But now she is in good hands at a rescue center. If I had an endless supply of money, I would donate to each and every horse brought in. Glad to see that this rescue touched many hearts and has collected many donations.


----------



## greentree

Maybe he just does not have the skill to be a friend without asking something from you.... Perhaps he is needing you to make a "friend" move that does not require a favor....


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Maybe he just does not have the skill to be a friend without asking something from you.... Perhaps he is needing you to make a "friend" move that does not require a favor....


I see him more as an acquaintance than a friend. Sorry but real friends don't contact you only when they need something from you and then ignore you when they don't. Friends are always there for one another. 

This is why I broke up with my ex. (even though she was extremely needy at first) as time went on, talking to her was like talking to a brick wall. She also knew that I had an extremely high level of interest in her two horses, but she would always ignore that fact. I just didn't get it. We both lost interest and to this day, I still don't know what caused the break up. But I'm far better off today without her than I was.

That's why, if I was to ever start dating again, I want to meet a girl who is already into the horse world. Because I have such few interests outside of horses and if she's not into horses, well then it's going to be an issue. Fly always comes first.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

You know.. In a relationship your partner doesn't need to be completely or even interested in what you are.. As long as they are supportive.. My partner isn't horsey, it really doesn't bother me. Horses are my time.


----------



## EliRose

Do YOU ever contact him on your own?


----------



## Tazzie

Rainaisabelle said:


> You know.. In a relationship your partner doesn't need to be completely or even interested in what you are.. As long as they are supportive.. My partner isn't horsey, it really doesn't bother me. Horses are my time.


This a million times. My DH HATED horses when I met him. Thought they were absolutely useless and just hay burners without any real purpose. We got Izzie and he would check on her for me while I was still home in Michigan, but she wasn't his lifeline. He's only just now admitted he loves her, over 5 years after we bought her. Given the choice though? He'd rather ride his Polaris than ride a horse. Or work on a car or mow the grass. Pretty much anything except riding. Which I can appreciate because I only go for trail rides on his Polaris because he asks me to, and I oblige because he has supported me through thick and thin with riding. Sometimes it's better to have a SO who only periodically joins in with the horsey habit. Gives you each something to do that is your own thing.

As for the person, I cut those people out of my life. If people can't help me when I need it when I'm always there for them, I'm done. Sometimes talking to that person just doesn't work. I'd rather have less than 5 true friends than 20 acquaintances.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Do YOU ever contact him on your own?


Of course I do. In fact this is the only times when we communicate is when I contact him. But even then it's not even communication because he puts zero effort into it. I can tell. It's like talking to my ex - a brick wall. Zero communication and if there is any, its one word answers. Unless he needs a favour and his so called other "friends" bail on him, then he comes to me. This has happened endless amounts of times where he claims his friends are going to help him with this and that and they don't even show lol. I've been telling him all along, that they aren't friends. Sorry, but friends live up to their promises and don't bail on you, EVERY SINGLE TIME. But he doesn't get it.

I've always been there for him, during his divorce, helping him move not once but twice over the past 5 years, helping him during his kids schooling problems, given him rides when his car would have a flat tire, etc. And when I need a favor in return, he ignores me like he doesn't even know me. It's a sign of disrespect and a total slap in the face. I don't deserve it and don't put up with garbage like that. So if that's how he wants to treat friends, he can go screw over someone else. Enough is enough and I've had it with his BS.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> You know.. In a relationship your partner doesn't need to be completely or even interested in what you are.. As long as they are supportive.. My partner isn't horsey, it really doesn't bother me. Horses are my time.


That is true, but chances of me meeting someone outside of the horse world are pretty minimal anyways since I haven't been dating in the past (almost) 3 years and don't get out to meet people. Basically, I don't look and am not going to go out of my way for it. If it happens, it'll be in the moment, like if I'm out running errands, lunch etc.


----------



## Dehda01

Watch out for kill buyer/rescue scams. There are a lot of them. Many of the "rescuers" are actually the kill buyers advertising the horses on Facebook to get them more coverage and most will never actually get shipped. And the prices they are advertising them at aren't anywhere near meat prices. Don't offer donation money unless a rescue actually had a REAL current active 501c3 #. I don't know if Canada has a similar program to make sure a rescue is legit. 

Many scammers are playing to bleeding hearts. If you can't be level headed about what what horses are, don't visit. You don't have enough experience to rescue at this point. 

There is a point where you have to either help, tune it out or block pages. There is a lot of ugly in this world. And a lot of good too. 

I could tell you stories to turn your stomach about horses I bred and had to save back from such places. Good honest horses. But they are safe now again. Such is life.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> As for the person, I cut those people out of my life. If people can't help me when I need it when I'm always there for them, I'm done. Sometimes talking to that person just doesn't work. I'd rather have less than 5 true friends than 20 acquaintances.


Exactly. It's so incredibly hard to find good real true friends these days. In my life, I have never had a real friend. All the people that I knew, that I "thought" were friends at the time, just used me in some way or another.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Exactly. It's so incredibly hard to find good real true friends these days. In my life, I have never had a real friend. All the people that I knew, that I "thought" were friends at the time, just used me in some way or another.


This is just so sad.....and honestly, you have such serious issues with perception that I would recommend therapy.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> This is just so sad.....and honestly, you have such serious issues with perception that I would recommend therapy.


I don't need therapy. I'm just telling the truth, at least I'm admitting to it. I don't think everyone would do that, but I have nothing to be ashamed of.


----------



## Golden Horse

greentree said:


> This is just so sad.....and honestly, you have such serious issues with perception that I would recommend therapy.





Hoofpic said:


> I don't need therapy. I'm just telling the truth, at least I'm admitting to it. I don't think everyone would do that, but I have nothing to be ashamed of.



No one said that you have anything to be ashamed of, another strong point in favour of Greentre's suggestion, your perceptions of a lot of things are way off, and maybe some help is needed.......


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> greentree said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is just so sad.....and honestly, you have such serious issues with perception that I would recommend therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need therapy. I'm just telling the truth, at least I'm admitting to it. I don't think everyone would do that, but I have nothing to be ashamed of.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one said that you have anything to be ashamed of, another strong point in favour of Greentre's suggestion, your perceptions of a lot of things are way off, and maybe some help is needed.......
Click to expand...

Theyre not perceptions,its experiences Ive been through.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Theyre not perceptions,its experiences Ive been through.



Believe me Hoofpic when I say, that through this thread and others you have started on here, we DO know a lot about you, and there is a reason that Greentree made that suggestion. You are very very good and jumping to all sorts of conclusions, without possession or understanding of the facts.

We have heard about your perceptions of others, and it is sometimes a little concerning. A lot of us have gone to talk to someone to try and improve the way we see life and the way we interact with others, it can be as useful as having an outside trainer work with your horse.

In fact my trainer works just as much with my mind and my perceptions of things as she does with the mechanics of riding, sometimes it takes an outsider to show you what the issues are.


----------



## Prairie

It's how you perceive those experiences that are shouting you need therapy. Nobody should be as old as you are and never have had a friend, nor should you be obsessing over every miniscule decision that you make. You also don't seem to realize that how you dress and look influence how others perceive you----filthy clothing, wrong apparel for what you are doing, using the wrong terms and misspelling common terminology for an activity you claim to be enraptured with are all signs of being dysfunctional in this world. You'veven said you have no friends at the barn where you spend hours and that sometimes the BO just brushes you off, all signs that you don't fit in. 


Please look into getting the help you need to be a contributing member of society for Fly's sake and yours----she's a horse, not a substitute for human companionship, and she really doesn't need you to be interfering with her time off out in the herd with HER buddies. You need a life outside of the barn and horses with other people to give you a better perspective of this world.


----------



## Hoofpic

I'm very happy with today's ride. I rode on my own. 3 very good things happened today.

1) I was able to slide the bit in her mouth right away with no delay. Also when I took it out after, she didn't fuss. Still a bit of mouth play when she feels the bridle come off her ears but if you saw the before and after, it's a drastic difference in her now. I'm not expecting her to freeze up like a statue as soon as the bridle comes off her ears, but at least take it easy on the mouth play and especially no head tossing backwards.

2) I had the best mount from the block to date. Lately, she has really started to stand really well for me when I tighten her cinch. She did again today. I still make sure I scratch her and say good girl. Then I walked her up to the block, put the reins over her, stepped onto the block and she didnt move a single step. I didnt have to do anything. Literally on within 15-20secs. Because the 3rd step is so high for me, Im actually finding it much easier to just step on the 3rd step, then swing my leg and body over her. THEN put both feet in the stirrups. Don't even bother with my inside foot stepping right into the stirrup. For me, its SO MUCH easier and feels more natural (don't tell my trainer this). But I would love to be able to mount her this way every single time. I much prefer it. Anyways, I made sure to scratch and praise her for standing. I wish I had recorded this. It went so smooth and no hiccups. I didn't think about it at all prior to getting on her. I made sure not to.

3) I was able to spray fly spray on her for the first time ever. For all of last year, I had to spray it into my hand then rub it on her. Today was the first time I put fly spray on her since, well last year. I felt her chest and it was a bit sandy, scaly feeling so I knew the bugs were on her chest. Nothing really concerning, but I decided to put fly spray all over her. I sprayed it on her hind legs, barrel, withers, topline and tummy and she didn't care, didn't move at all. I was shocked. The only areas where she didn't like and wasn't okay with was her front legs, shoulder, chest and upper neck.

I plan on working on this more with her because I want to be able to spray her anywhere and she doesn't care. Quick and easy. Cause last year when I was spraying it into my hand then rubbing it onto her. That is time consuming. 

Maybe I can take a video of it for you guys to see. Now when I spray it on her, I still have to be easy on the trigger. Just soft pushes. I can't go all crazy with it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> It's how you perceive those experiences that are shouting you need therapy. Nobody should be as old as you are and never have had a friend, nor should you be obsessing over every miniscule decision that you make. You also don't seem to realize that how you dress and look influence how others perceive you----filthy clothing, wrong apparel for what you are doing, using the wrong terms and misspelling common terminology for an activity you claim to be enraptured with are all signs of being dysfunctional in this world. *You'veven said you have no friends at the barn where you spend hours and that sometimes the BO just brushes you off, all signs that you don't fit in. *
> 
> 
> Please look into getting the help you need to be a contributing member of society for Fly's sake and yours----she's a horse, not a substitute for human companionship, and she really doesn't need you to be interfering with her time off out in the herd with HER buddies. You need a life outside of the barn and horses with other people to give you a better perspective of this world.


If I said this, this was when I first arrived there. Last Sept. Things are MUCH different now. I have made friends with all the boarders there (there is only 6 including me). I am more social. I have gotten to know the other boarders better, as well as some of the riders who come to ride the lesson horses. And it wasnt even all that bad before, I just needed time to adjust from a self care barn to a full care one.


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

I'm glad you had such a good time with Fly today!


----------



## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> I'm glad you had such a good time with Fly today!


Thanks, it was a great day.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> That is true, but chances of me meeting someone outside of the horse world are pretty minimal anyways since I haven't been dating in the past (almost) 3 years and don't get out to meet people. Basically, I don't look and am not going to go out of my way for it. If it happens, it'll be in the moment, like if I'm out running errands, lunch etc.


You're going to struggle in a relationship with a horse girl especially if you both love horses because neither of you will find each other important. You need a balance their is a fine line between being together and being together but separated.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> But I would love to be able to mount her this way every single time. I much prefer it.


Then do it that way every single time. There's no reason why you can't.


----------



## jenkat86

Rainaisabelle said:


> You're going to struggle in a relationship with a horse girl especially if you both love horses because neither of you will find each other important. You need a balance their is a fine line between being together and being together but separated.


I very much agree with this, but I sort of disagree with this too. I find it takes a very specific, independent and supportive person to be with a horse person. I think it can be easier for women to have a relationship with someone without horses, but harder for a man. I think it can be harder for men to manage those relationships, because those ladies just don't get it.


----------



## greentree

Is your trainer going to be upset for not putting your foot in the stirrup?? Good idea, that, going up to the third step....lol.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> You're going to struggle in a relationship with a horse girl especially if you both love horses because neither of you will find each other important. You need a balance their is a fine line between being together and being together but separated.


I think it depends though. Because remember, when I meet someone, they don't instantly become a part of my life, nor do I push other stuff in my life aside for them. I've learned from the past that they start off as a casual friend, and I take things slow. I do this to protect myself from future heart break. The best thing anyone can do when first getting to know someone is keeping themselves busy in the everyday lives. Get to know that person on the side so that way you're not so emotionally invested. Right now, marriage isn't even in my life picture. It used to be when I was 20, 21, 22, but my thoughts and perspective on marriage has dramatically changed since then.

For example, a single mother would be THE perfect fit for me. Because they have their children to take care of and their children will always come first in their life before any guy. Who wouldn't fit, would be someone who wants all the attention in the world right off the bat.

Remember, I tend to keep my life very private. When I meet people, they all still think I am in my mid 20's, go to bars, into cars, play sports and play video games in my free time. That's totally not the case. The couch is the last place I want to be (especially in the summer), I'd rather be mucking out paddocks if given the opportunity. 

I don't tell anyone about what I'm really into, unless I get to know them, otherwise why bother. Instead, I just change the topic and learn about them. Aside from my 3 sisters, no one else in my family or extended family know I'm even into horses. My extended family aren't even a part of my life anyways, as I never see them anyways. They don't know what's happening in my life and I don't know what's happening in theirs. Why? We're just too different and we live completely different lifestyles.


----------



## SEAmom

Hoofpic said:


> For example, a single mother would be THE perfect fit for me.


As a past single mother, there is so much "NO" in this. Just so much no.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> If I said this, this was when I first arrived there. Last Sept. Things are MUCH different now. I have made friends with all the boarders there (there is only 6 including me). I am more social. I have gotten to know the other boarders better, as well as some of the riders who come to ride the lesson horses. And it wasnt even all that bad before, I just needed time to adjust from a self care barn to a full care one.



It was recently when you stated that you had no friends at the barn to ask to go with you to the show.


Several of us suggested just mounting her from the third step without worrying about the stirrups till after you are up there. Glad it worked for you!


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Then do it that way every single time. There's no reason why you can't.


I was thinking about this exact same thing last night, and I was saying to myself, IF (and I very much do) by me going up to the 3rd step and getting on Fly by swinging my leg over her first, THEN putting both feet in the stirrups, makes me more comfortable, THEN DO IT. Yesterdays mount went as well as it could have. I wish I had it on tape. No reason to not continue with it since it's working.

I hope my trainer doesn't notice that's all. If she does, then I will explain to her on why I chose to do things that way. I just hope she understands. I'm sure she will.

She's on vacation for the next 3 weeks, so I am doing lessons (just once a week because my BO is too busy to provide more, which is fine!), with my BO for the next few weeks. My next one is on Saturday with my riding partner. I'm not nervous, but it will feel very different because 1) I'm learning from a different person (though same teaching method, just different in terms of how they deliver it), and 2) He hasn't seen me ride nearly as much as my trainer has, so I still get a wee bit of intimidation when he watches me do anything because he knows so much. But I think I will be fine.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Is your trainer going to be upset for not putting your foot in the stirrup?? Good idea, that, going up to the third step....lol.


I'm not sure if she will be upset. I won't mention anything to her about it, but if she happens to notice how I mount from the block, then I will just explain to her that because of the 3rd step being too high for me when stepping into the stirrup, swinging my leg over first feels much more natural for me. 

One thing I know is that if it was a 2 step, I wouldn't have a problem mounting how she wants me to. The extra step makes all the difference. 

From what I've seen, other boarders at the barn mount by swinging their leg over first as well. Then put both feet in it's stirrups.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I don't tell anyone about what I'm really into, unless I get to know them, otherwise why bother.


Because that is how you actually get to know people, you share what you are into, and you find out what they are into, making friends or getting to know people is about sharing things....that is why you bother.

Seeing as horses is the one thing I can talk knowledgeably about then it is a great ice breaker, I don't run out of things to say.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> It was recently when you stated that you had no friends at the barn to ask to go with you to the show.
> 
> 
> Several of us suggested just mounting her from the third step without worrying about the stirrups till after you are up there. Glad it worked for you!


What I meant was, I'm friends with all the other boarders at the barn, but we're not close friends yet that hang outside of the barn. There is one that I do keep in touch with every now and then outside of the barn as we did go to a clinic together a couple months ago. She is the one that I'm the closest friends with so far and the one that I talk to the most. Only thing is, we don't see each other a whole lot because we go at different times. She only goes later at night (because she prefers when it's quiet) and I often go in the afternoons and early evening. I do still sometimes go after dinner, but not nearly as often.


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## Prairie

You have acquaintances, not friends! Friends make a point to get together because they enjoy each others company and don't leave meeting up to chance. In order to have friends, you have to be a friend and make an effort.


Once again, I strongly suggest you get some therapy so you learn how to interact with other people.


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## Hoofpic

Another benefit that I've noticed from mounting by swinging your leg over first, is that by you not putting any weight into the stirrup (though it's only from a short distance and for a very short amount of time), you aren't putting any strain on their backs or the saddle. So by me swinging my leg over, then planting myself, I am able to bare my body weight on my leg that is still on the block. And when I do put my body weight on their backs, I'm already on them. Hope that makes sense.


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## Prairie

It depends on how you plant yourself. Do you just plop down or gently lower yourself so the horse can get use to your weight?


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Because that is how you actually get to know people, you share what you are into, and you find out what they are into, making friends or getting to know people is about sharing things....that is why you bother.
> 
> Seeing as horses is the one thing I can talk knowledgeably about then it is a great ice breaker, I don't run out of things to say.


I know by talking with others is how you get to know them, but I find with me that I have to be in the mood for it. I am not ashamed to admit, that I have my days where I just want to keep to myself. 

I CAN hit it off really well with people, just some, not all. It depends on a few factors, but it ultimately comes down to how comfortable I feel talking to that person and the vibe that I get from them. Also having stuff in common most definitely helps, but it isn't a deal breaker.

I will give you an example. 

At my last job (where I got let go last December 2015), yes I know I wasn't the social butterfly that I should have been. My boss knew it and it bothered him that I didn't put in the extra effort to socialize. He was a social butterfly, I was not. He can make something out of nothing. I'm not that kind of person. We were complete opposites. BUT, we still got along and had a solid working relationship, but within reason because there were barriers that we ran into, simply because of how opposite we were.

There was about 8 or 9 (maybe 10) people in the company (Realtors, not office staff), that I hit things off with right when I met them and whenever we ran into each other in an office, or at a social work event,etc. We could and would chit chat for hours at social work gatherings. We would talk about anything and everything. Yet we had nothing in common and didn't share any interests. Why? Because of the vibe I got off them and how comfortable I was with them. I felt a vibe with these people, that I lacked with my boss at the time.

It is ironic because, yes I'm not a social butterfly, but if I hit it off with someone so well, I actually tend to talk too much. You guys may find that hard to believe, but it's true. I can be a blabber mouth at times. So I can be social, very social. I just have to be in the right situation and with the right people.


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## Skyseternalangel

You know it's really irritating to be basically shot down for giving you advice, hoofpic, and then you come on later and say you discovered something amazing and how well it worked and yet it was the SAME advice that you were given but told us that it's not okay with your trainer or you don't think it'll work or you don't understand it or you prefer X or she'll react X way.

Seriously.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> It depends on how you plant yourself. Do you just plop down or gently lower yourself so the horse can get use to your weight?


I gently lower myself. I would never plop down on any horse.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> You know it's really irritating to be basically shot down for giving you advice, hoofpic, and then you come on later and say you discovered something amazing and how well it worked and yet it was the SAME advice that you were given but told us that it's not okay with your trainer or you don't think it'll work or you don't understand it or you prefer X or she'll react X way.
> 
> Seriously.


I never said that I discovered something amazing, I always knew that not bothering with the stirrups until after I got on Fly was advice on here. It's what I wanted to do from the start, it has always been my preference, but because my trainer told me different, I wanted to obey her by following her method. At least try her way, to see what outcome I get. I won't know unless I try. Now, that I have tried her method a few times and went back to mounting your guy's way, I know which I'm much more comfortable with. 

I'm sorry that you felt I was ignoring it because I clearly wasn't. Were you able to read my mind for the past couple weeks knowing that, that piece of advice wasn't on the back of my mind? I just felt I had to go with what my trainer just showed me, at least for the time being. You have to remember, it's only been a couple weeks of me mounting from the block.

If I was to take your guy's advice right away of mounting from the block and say I ran into trouble or it wasn't working. Well then you guys would say "listen to your trainer!...You have a trainer for a reason!....stop listening to so many people for advice!" We've been down that road before.


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## Prairie

You sure plopped down on Fly's back when you mounted from the ground. Please look back at those videos you posted of you. You even questioned that plopping around on a horse's back was painful or annoying when it was mentioned after one of your videos.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I know by talking with others is how you get to know them, but I find with me that I have to be in the mood for it. I am not ashamed to admit, that I have my days where I just want to keep to myself.


Funny that, but a friend has to be there for you the whole time...maybe your friend just contacted you when he was in the mood for it, and gave you one word replies the rest of the time because he just wasn't in the mood.

Friendship is the ability to look interested when your eyes are glazing over sometimes, because it is a rare, nay impossible relationship to find where you both are genuinely interested in the other person the whole time. You have to work at it.


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## Skyseternalangel

It's not about taking our advice right away, that's idiotic because every situation is different etc.

It's that you are quite rude in responding to said advice.


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> It's not about taking our advice right away, that's idiotic because every situation is different etc.
> 
> It's that you are quite rude in responding to said advice.


How am I being rude? I'm not rude at all. If you read my posts, you would know that getting on Fly first before putting my feet in the stirrups was always my preference. 

When I rode a gelding at a barn I volunteered at last year, I did the exact same thing. So mounting from the block in general wasn't completely new to me. Mounting first, then putting my feet in the stirrups was always what I was familiar with.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> You sure plopped down on Fly's back when you mounted from the ground. Please look back at those videos you posted of you. You even questioned that plopping around on a horse's back was painful or annoying when it was mentioned after one of your videos.


Well I find when you are standing on a block and especially with me so high on the 3rd step, it's much easier for me to control how I land than mounting from the ground. 

I actually don't even go over and down. I actually have to crouch down quite a bit when standing on the 3rd step, then I slide over sideways, so when I go over Fly's back, there is very little room between me and the saddle.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> Were you able to read my mind for the past couple weeks knowing that, that piece of advice wasn't on the back of my mind?


That comes across as rude.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> ....not to mention that you jump to conclusions that are totally off, then claim to change your mind after we point out the fallacy of your thinking, only then repeat the same false conclusion later on. You aren't progressing in your horse knowledge----just look at your errors in terminology and spelling despite how many times you've been corrected and your claims of reading horse books. All of us are willing to share our knowledge and experience, but it's really frustrating when someone doesn't apply himself and try to understand what is being said, only coming up with excuses of why that won't work or he never said that.


I've already mentioned that I post a lot from my phone, most of the times I just want to get out what I want to say. If I notice spelling mistakes, I will fix them, but I don't proof read my posts on a public forum like I do with other stuff in my life, anywhere on the internet (mind you, this is the only forum I visit and post at). It's not the end of the world. If people want to judge me because I have spelling mistakes, then go ahead. 

I wouldn't judge others as well.

What makes you think that I don't apply myself to understand what's being said?


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> How am I being rude? I'm not rude at all. If you read my posts, you would know that getting on Fly first before putting my feet in the stirrups was always my preference.


There is the perception fail again...just saying that when anyone posts any advice for you, I expect your response to start with something like 

"no, that's not how it is"
"I'm not doing that any more"

There is generally a push back.

Just out of interest how many threads on here do you actually read? Or do you just sit on your own one making incorrect assumptions that are corrected by others so often? There is a whole world of experience out there, this one you SHOULD read http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/arena-etiquette-717441/

Now you don't have to post but you can learn a lot through reading everywhere on this forum.

Advice, if you do want to join in on another post, maybe don't start with (when you have zero knowledge of something) My opinion is that spade bits are horrible....If there is something you want to join in on, start with "Spade bits look very strong, how do they work, and who uses them"

Not knowing is fine, none of us are born knowing this stuff, but we learned, because we are interested, and we still ask each other, our trainers, google, read books, anything to learn and be able to share out experiences. Pretending you know will always get you in trouble on a horse forum, ALWAYS


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## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> That comes across as rude.


I was just asking you. You said I was ignoring advice given on here. How did you know? 

Were you able to know that, that piece of advice wasn't on the back of my mind?


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I was just asking you. You said I was ignoring advice given on here. How did you know?
> 
> Were you able to know that, that piece of advice wasn't on the back of my mind?


It's a good guess when you don't try it then later say it was the best thing ever.
People here do want to help you but a little 'Thank you' can go a long way.

Hoofpic, just ride your horse. Let us know how it's going. Stop "watching" others without interacting with them-that comes off as creepy.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> It's a good guess when you don't try it then later say it was the best thing ever.
> People here do want to help you but a little 'Thank you' can go a long way.
> 
> Hoofpic, just ride your horse. Let us know how it's going. Stop "watching" others without interacting with them-that comes off as creepy.


I always do my best to thank the posts I like. Don't think that I'm not at all grateful for the advice given to me. 

I said my mount from yesterday was the best one I've had to date, which it was. I'm just being honest, there is really no other way to put it. 

I'm not going to beat around the bush to describe what happened in a much less accurate way, just so I am not so blunt. If you want I can be...

"I had a really good mount"...how's that? Even though it's not even accurate, nor is it what I wanted to say.

I never said anything about anything else being the best or most amazing thing ever. So I will shorten my vocabulary. If I have my best ride to date, I will say "I had a really good ride" Done. I won't go into details.


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## jaydee

Can I make a small suggestion here
This is supposed to be a journal about hoofpic's progress with his horse and his riding
If you give him advice or make a comment in response to something he posts and he doesn't accept it then that's his prerogative - and if you don't like that he doesn't take your advice then don't give it any more.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

jaydee said:


> Can I make a small suggestion here
> This is supposed to be a journal about hoofpic's progress with his horse and his riding
> If you give him advice or make a comment in response to something he posts and he doesn't accept it then that's his prerogative - and if you don't like that he doesn't take your advice then don't give it any more.


Took the words right out of my mouth, jaydee.


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## Rainaisabelle

In the end this is Hoofpics thread he can do what he wants


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## tinyliny

moderator's note:


some posts were removed due to having nothing 'friendly or in the spirit of helpfulness' in them. a member's personal journal is not the place to try and teach social or spelling skills, and certainly not in the critical , mean spirited way I've seen posted blatantly here.


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## Hoofpic

Thank you Gunkid for the book! Got it today and cant wait to start reading it tonight!


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## Hoofpic

I made some new friends today. They invited me to lunch and at first I said "no thanks", but then I immediately thought of this thread and said yes.


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## tinyliny

I never , and I mean NEVER turn down an invite to lunch, but then, I don't get all that many.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> I never , and I mean NEVER turn down an invite to lunch, but then, I don't get all that many.


I agree and that is why I'm glad that (even though automatically declining with a "no that's okay" was my default answer), that I immediately thought of this thread and what we have talked about and changed my mind.

I had fun, but I will admit it felt a bit wierd because I'm so not used to being with people in public. I'm always used to being a lone wolf. Obviously the couple had interest in hanging out with me and getting to know me a bit better, otherwise they wouldn't have invited me out after the barn. Now, the next time we see each other at the barn we can build from that.


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## Hoofpic

Something that I found rather interesting over the past few days.

If tied, Fly will stand quietly when spraying on fly spray anywhere on her body except her chest, front legs, and front neck. 

But if I don't have her tied and just have her haltered, she won't stand quietly at all. In fact the bottle won't even be able to get within 2ft from her without her starting to walk away and even trot away.


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## jaydee

That isn't unusual - I have a horse right now that will happily accept various things when she's got a halter on - doesn't need to be tied up - or if she's in the stable that for some reason she won't accept when she's loose in the field.
She came to us with a multitude of problems and I would say that she'd come from somewhere where she'd been bullied and intimidated into accepting stuff rather than having the job done properly using patience and time


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> That isn't unusual - I have a horse right now that will happily accept various things when she's got a halter on - doesn't need to be tied up - or if she's in the stable that for some reason she won't accept when she's loose in the field.
> She came to us with a multitude of problems and I would say that she'd come from somewhere where she'd been bullied and intimidated into accepting stuff rather than having the job done properly using patience and time


Thanks. I didn't think it was unusual but it just caught my attention. I will need to think about how to address the fly spray problem when Fly is not tied.

Do you think with your horse, the reason why she is not accepting when in the field, is because it's home?

I know people at the old barn would always tell me "never work your horse in their home", as in their paddock, field, etc.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I didn't think it was unusual but it just caught my attention. I will need to think about how to address the fly spray problem when Fly is not tied.
> 
> Do you think with your horse, the reason why she is not accepting when in the field, is because it's home?
> 
> I know people at the old barn would always tell me "never work your horse in their home", as in their paddock, field, etc.


No, she should accept it any place.

I've always thought that line is a load of it.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Do you think with your horse, the reason why she is not accepting when in the field, is because it's home?
> 
> I know people at the old barn would always tell me "never work your horse in their home", as in their paddock, field, etc.


Personally, I think that's hogwash. If my horse is being a boob, he's most definitely going to get worked wherever we're at. Taking him to the round pen or wherever takes too long. For every misbehavior, there needs to be an _immediate_ consequence. Not a consequence in five minutes. 

To combat the "I don't wanna" mentality in regards to fly spraying loose in the field, I either halter the horse and hang onto them (thus limiting how far they can get away) or I grab their fly mask and keep them from moving away from me that way.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I didn't think it was unusual but it just caught my attention. I will need to think about how to address the fly spray problem when Fly is not tied.
> 
> Do you think with your horse, the reason why she is not accepting when in the field, is because it's home?
> 
> I know people at the old barn would always tell me "never work your horse in their home", as in their paddock, field, etc.



a lot of horses won't let you fly spray them loose in their field, if you have no way to restrain them, and they know it.

just yesterday I was trying to put some swat on a horse, and he knew he could get away, I had to growl at him, , in the way I would if he was turning away from me when I was trying to catch him. he almost left me, but then thought better and came back and allowed me to apply it. but, just barely. if he'd decided to leave, I could not have made him stop and stand without a lengthy 'chase him down, ' episode, and it was too hot for me to want to do that. I told myself, next time, I'll set MYSELF up for success. by him getting away from me once, he learns it is possible and will do it again. so, I'll keep the halter in use. the less he EVER learns to run away from me the better.

and, as for not working them in their own space, I think in general this is meant to refer to not riding them in their own space. for optimal riding , I can see this as holding true, but if a handling problem crops up, it does need to be dealt with as soon as reasonably possible.


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## tinaev

If he is in his pasture and unrestrained Rio will try to get away from being fly sprayed too. He knows I can't keep him there so if he's not interested in whatever is happening he's not going to stick around. I can't blame for it. If it's something important he's very easy to catch and does not resist once he's removed from the pasture. He will give me the same behavior tied or untied as long as he is out of his pasture and in the space where we generally tack up. I think he realizes in that space his behavior is non-negotiable whereas in the pasture that's his space and I don't much care what he does as long as he comes when called.

Fly seems like a very smart horse and I bet she makes the same association.


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## Hoofpic

I had a great weekend as far as making friends at the barn.

Today, one of the boarders (her mare and Fly are in the same herd, and we share the same stall to store our stuff), and she asked what I was going to do with Fly today. I said maybe take her for a walk and she asked if she wanted to go together, while she takes her mare along. I said yes!

Unfortunately, it was short lived, like 5mins short lived. Even with a ton of bug spray on us, the mosquitoes were just too much for us. I was getting eaten alive. So frustrating.

So we both agreed that we will give it another try tomorrow and we set up a time to meet at the barn (since tomorrow is a holiday).


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## Skyseternalangel

A horse should be respectful in any environment, but you too should also be respectful.

I can pick my horse's feet loose in a field with other horses, spray him, put his flymask on, ask him to trot next to me, whatever. He's happy to do it

When he isn't happy to do it, he's probably sick of me but after driving him off and giving him a chance to choose, he usually chooses me. He's a sassy horse, but very smart.

It takes time though, to establish that set of mutual respect.


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## jaydee

No I don't think 'being home' has anything at all to do with why that one horse of mine won't have certain things done to her when she's loose in the field other than she can exercise her choose to run away from me there
If someone had correctly 'conditioned' her to willingly and happily accept things in the first place rather than force her in some way then she wouldn't be like it. 
Another of my horse's was nervous of fly sprays when we first bought her as a just broke 3 year old - one of the very few things that actually did worry her - but with careful desensitization she came to accept them as a perfectly normal non threatening thing and I could walk up to her in the field and spray her with no trouble at all


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Personally, I think that's hogwash. If my horse is being a boob, he's most definitely going to get worked wherever we're at. Taking him to the round pen or wherever takes too long. For every misbehavior, there needs to be an _immediate_ consequence. Not a consequence in five minutes.
> 
> To combat the "I don't wanna" mentality in regards to fly spraying loose in the field, I either halter the horse and hang onto them (thus limiting how far they can get away) or I grab their fly mask and keep them from moving away from me that way.


I always thought it was hogwash when people at the old barn would always tell me not to work my mare in her paddock. Some of them freaked out at me because there is one time when I went to go catch her (this was when I first got her) and she turned her butt to me and my trainer (at the time) said to nip her in the bud with the long dressage whip and make her move her feet. Well when other boarders saw it, they freaked out and said that I should never work my mare in her home. "Her home is her home...work is outside of her home...this is her safety spot, her place where she finds comfort and it should be kept that way".


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> a lot of horses won't let you fly spray them loose in their field, if you have no way to restrain them, and they know it.
> 
> just yesterday I was trying to put some swat on a horse, and he knew he could get away, I had to growl at him, , in the way I would if he was turning away from me when I was trying to catch him. he almost left me, but then thought better and came back and allowed me to apply it. but, just barely. if he'd decided to leave, I could not have made him stop and stand without a lengthy 'chase him down, ' episode, and it was too hot for me to want to do that. I told myself, next time, I'll set MYSELF up for success. by him getting away from me once, he learns it is possible and will do it again. so, I'll keep the halter in use. the less he EVER learns to run away from me the better.
> 
> and, as for not working them in their own space, I think in general this is meant to refer to not riding them in their own space. for optimal riding , I can see this as holding true,


Oh I see. Your example is a good one and it reminds me of when sometimes I go to catch Fly, I always look at her tail and she knows the drill that she needs to turn to face me before I halter her. It doesn't matter what she's doing, whether she's eating grass, whatever. She needs to stop what she's doing and pay attention to me. If she doesn't, then I swat her lightly with the end of the lead or carrot stick (and I mean very light). But we are at the point now, where I rarely have to do this and if the odd time I do, she will turn to face me before I nip her. She will see me start to prepare to whip out the end of the lead and she focuses on me. But for the most part, she has gotten A LOT better over the past month. 
It's a dramatic difference.

Because before she would just keep eating grass. And if I get ready to nip her with the end of the lead, she will keep eating grass but turn her butt away from me so I can't nip her, but she can still eat grass. 

Well then one time I took her into the round pen to work on this and as soon as I nipped her real hard on the butt and said to quit, and made her move her feet, she got the point. I saw an immediate difference in her in terms of how much better she obeys my presence when I enter her field.

But a few nights ago, when I was trying to put fly spray on her in her field, I actually had her haltered. But she wouldn't let that bottle get near her because she would start shifting her HQ away from it and even doing a mini trot or fast walk. She wanted to keep her eyes on the bottle.

I've watched how other boarders do this with their horse (and they will just keep spraying and spraying and going towards them, no matter how fast that horse shifts away from it. They keep the pressure on and as soon as the horse stops moving and stands quietly, they immediately stop spraying.



> but if a handling problem crops up, it does need to be dealt with as soon as reasonably possible.


Yes, this is what I've always believed in too. A friend boarder of mine at the old barn said that if your horse does something that needs to be corrected, the correction needs to be done on the spot, no matter if it's in the arena, in their home, wherever. You don't wait. 

Cause I remember other boarders always telling me to wait until I got Fly out of her paddock before I corrected her for turning her butt to me. But that was ridiculous.


----------



## tjtalon

Hoofpic said:


> I always thought it was hogwash when people at the old barn would always tell me not to work my mare in her paddock. Some of them freaked out at me because there is one time when I went to go catch her (this was when I first got her) and she turned her butt to me and my trainer (at the time) said to nip her in the bud with the long dressage whip and make her move her feet. Well when other boarders saw it, they freaked out and said that I should never work my mare in her home. "Her home is her home...work is outside of her home...this is her safety spot, her place where she finds comfort and it should be kept that way".


It IS hogwash. My lesson horse might & will test me wherever she likes, & wherever we are, comes the correction.


----------



## Hoofpic

tjtalon said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I always thought it was hogwash when people at the old barn would always tell me not to work my mare in her paddock. Some of them freaked out at me because there is one time when I went to go catch her (this was when I first got her) and she turned her butt to me and my trainer (at the time) said to nip her in the bud with the long dressage whip and make her move her feet. Well when other boarders saw it, they freaked out and said that I should never work my mare in her home. "Her home is her home...work is outside of her home...this is her safety spot, her place where she finds comfort and it should be kept that way".
> 
> 
> 
> It IS hogwash. My lesson horse might & will test me wherever she likes, & wherever we are, comes the correction.
Click to expand...

And that's what I thought. But no at the old barn, I just remember one time I had two ladies lecturing me from 30ft away.

If I had waited until I haltered Fly, then walk her out of her paddock to correct her, what good would that be? Fly wouldn't know what she got whacked for.


----------



## tinyliny

I can't imagine "lecturing" anyone at our barn. The only time I might say ANYTHING is if the Person is doing something dangerous , like tying a horse to a gate, or is beating up on a horse cruelly , and then only if I'm certain the horse didn't earn that.


----------



## anndankev

When you are spraying the fly spray do you take care as to which direction the 'overspray' is going?

What I mean, for example, is when I am spraying the chest and neck of a horse I am sure to move to the front end and a bit off the side and spray with the nozzle aimed towards the rear. Many times I will lift the horse's head up to avoid spraying in the face.

This is as opposed to standing in the area of the mid-section and spraying the neck, where it would be directed at the head. Then overspray could be getting into the ears and eyes, not to mention the nostrils where it will be breathed in.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> I can't imagine "lecturing" anyone at our barn. The only time I might say ANYTHING is if the Person is doing something dangerous , like tying a horse to a gate, or is beating up on a horse cruelly , and then only if I'm certain the horse didn't earn that.


Well this lady got my attention alright. But a friend boarder of mine came out and told me not to listen to her and reassured me that by me correcting and nipping Fly in the bud in her paddock was the right thing.

I had a lot of interesting things happen at the old barn and that would explain why I wanted out.

I mean I had another lady keep trying to tell me everyday that I shouldn't have Fly in a paddock because it's detrimental to her well being since she can't socialize or graze. And she would ask me every time I saw her when I am putting Fly in the field, even though I told her right from day one on why I didn't want to.


----------



## Hoofpic

anndankev said:


> When you are spraying the fly spray do you take care as to which direction the 'overspray' is going?
> 
> What I mean, for example, is when I am spraying the chest and neck of a horse I am sure to move to the front end and a bit off the side and spray with the nozzle aimed towards the rear. Many times I will lift the horse's head up to avoid spraying in the face.
> 
> This is as opposed to standing in the area of the mid-section and spraying the neck, where it would be directed at the head. Then overspray could be getting into the ears and eyes, not to mention the nostrils where it will be breathed in.


Yes, I always take in account where the wind is coming from when outside and when I spray her neck I either spray so the bottle is angled towards her hind end of I put my other hand up to block any excess spray from getting near her head. Same goes for her chest, withers etc. I also hold the bottle very close to her to avoid excess spray getting everywhere.


----------



## Hoofpic

Im loving this book Gunkid, thanks again. I findthe hoof section a bit overwhelming though. Lots of info.


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## Hoofpic

Not sure if anyone here is into Chiro for themselves, but I went to see mine again a couple days ago to get my back adjusted and it bothers me that they don't have closing doors inbetween each room for anyone who would like to change. Even then, there should be doors to each room especially when there are 6 rooms and there is always a person in each one. Why do others need to see what's happening in each room from just walking by the hall?

The same goes for their massage side. The massage rooms don't have doors lol.

Don't get me wrong, my chiro is a great chiro but the lack of privacy alone in his clinic makes me want to go back to my other one. I've actually been using two chiros over the past few years. The only reason why I go to this guy often is because he is literally down the street from home, whereas my other chiro is a 10min drive. Not far either way.

Both are amazing Chiro's that have given me amazing and quick results and relief. But the lack of privacy in one really makes me feel uncomfortable every time I go in.


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## tinyliny

crazy. any chiro or massage person I've gone to is very private, door closed, the whole thing.

this may sound odd, but do you think that since Canadian medicine is socialized, and the chiroproacter must funnel quite a few patients through quickly, that they cut corners like that?


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## karliejaye

Every chiro I have been to either has doors, or at the very least privacy curtains in the entrance. Maybe let the staff know it is a little unsettling and suggest an inexpensive fix, like curtains, if they haven't considered it before. It's good for businesses to know what their clients like and dislike, otherwise they have no way to grow.


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## natisha

I stopped going to a dentist who had an open area for teeth cleaning. The chairs were faced away from one another but you could still hear spitting & such. Ick.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> crazy. any chiro or massage person I've gone to is very private, door closed, the whole thing.
> 
> this may sound odd, but do you think that since Canadian medicine is socialized, and the chiroproacter must funnel quite a few patients through quickly, that they cut corners like that?


From my observations, the Chiro's definitely funnel through their patients. They don't rush through their appointments, but I find a big reason why they don't have doors is because of this - not having to open and close doors all the time. But even curtains would make a huge difference, my other chiro has curtains on all his rooms entrances. 

IMO, there is just no reason to have open rooms like that.


----------



## Hoofpic

karliejaye said:


> Every chiro I have been to either has doors, or at the very least privacy curtains in the entrance. Maybe let the staff know it is a little unsettling and suggest an inexpensive fix, like curtains, if they haven't considered it before. It's good for businesses to know what their clients like and dislike, otherwise they have no way to grow.


True, wouldn't hurt to let the girls at the front know. I will make a comment in their surveys.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I stopped going to a dentist who had an open area for teeth cleaning. The chairs were faced away from one another but you could still hear spitting & such. Ick.


My previous dentist was like that too. Personally when I'm sitting in a dentist's chair, I don't want to be able to see any other patients.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well I did something entirely new today for the very first time. It's been on my mind for a bit now. Lately I have been walking Fly up to the mini donkeys and she has shown a noticeable change in terms of her being more comfortable when she has them in her sights. Now obviously, the mini donkeys are in a paddock, so I'm not bringing her right up to the fence.

Today, I rode Fly outside and before going back in the barn, I said that I'm going to try riding Fly past the mini donkeys, so I did. She was fine at first, but as soon as the mini donkeys moved and started walking towards the fence, Fly got uncomfortable and she shuffling and then tried to take off. Not a fast take off, but a bit faster than a trot. I immediately told her to WHOA. BO was right near by and told me to make her do a couple circles in an area away from the donkeys, (I'm guessing to get Fly's attention back onto me), so I did 3 circles. 

Then I said that I would love to try riding Fly past the mini donkeys again, but perhaps it's not a good idea. He said I should do it, so he helped me out. He had me ride Fly at a walk past them but this time he drove the gator in between us and the mini donkeys. We went past the mini donkeys, then came back. 

Then he had me do it again, except this time he would stop half way. Then he had me do it for a third time but this time on my own and on the way back we saw a lick and chew from Fly. Fly was noticeably more calm and relaxed the 3rd time doing it.

I was relaxed when riding Fly past the mini donkeys, but when she tried to take off and I had to make sure I got a good hold of the reins, I was a bit nervous for a couple seconds. That's the very first time that I've experienced anything like that on any horse. But we all need to experience it eventually right? So I'm glad I got it under my belt and the next time it happens I know how to handle it better.

I'm just surprised that Fly didn't feed off my relaxed and calm mood when I was on her back the entire time. She did eventually calm down, but right away it wasn't the case.

I think this is something that I can build from and I would love to ride Fly again past the mini donkeys again.


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## tinyliny

well done.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> well done.


Thanks, but it was my BO who I owe a big thanks to. 

He gave me some very valuable advice. He said, no matter if the horse decides to take off, to keep my hands down when pulling back on the reins. He prefers hands to be just above the withers.

But when I've seen all these riders in these clinics, almost all of them would have their hands up higher when pulling back. Some of them would even pull back and upwards in a 45 degree angle towards the riders chest.


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## Hoofpic

This stuff breaks my heart. I'm going to donate again. I don't want any great rescue center turning away any horses in dire need of help.


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## Hoofpic

I have made a new friend with one of the other boarders at the barn. So I have two now! Plus the other couple who (don't board at the barn), but the wife of the couple comes to ride and do lessons with my trainer.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> This stuff breaks my heart. I'm going to donate again. I don't want any great rescue center turning away any horses in dire need of help.


Is this Australian?


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## Rainaisabelle

Also have you researched the charities you are donating to?


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## Hoofpic

Yes that rescue center is in Australia and I've made a $25 and $10 donation to them. They are the same center whom I made that video for on the gray mare who passed away about 4 or 5 months ago.


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## Hoofpic

I have some great news, I got Fly a lot better with the spray bottle now! I would say she is just about comfortable and okay with me spraying it on her. Today was the second time where I was able to spray her everywhere with the fly spray. I'm so happy. I think the biggest change in me is that I'm relaxed right now and I just go about it as if the spray bottle is nothing. I don't anticipate her not being okay with it. I tell myself that SHE IS okay with the spray bottle. Just like with the mini donkeys, I stay relaxed and dont let it phase me. 

i'm glad that she trusts me with the spray bottles in that I'm not going to hurt her and that she is safe.

Also, yesterday a friend boarder and I set up a bunch of obstacles (tarp, logs, ball, barrels, tire, bridge, etc) up in the arena and we had some fun (riding of course). Got Fly over the bridge twice and no hiccups. The tire she was completely new to, it was her first time with a tire.

I set up some logs in an "L" shape and I walked Fly through it a few times and I was able to back her up through it as well. Took some time but now that I know how to move her hind end over from the saddle, it really helped me.

Fly stands for me now at the mounting block! She's been so good.

And she opens up right away when I put her bit in and she no longer fusses. Still a bit of mouth play, but she's stopped pulling her head back and a dramatic change in her. I still say "open" as Im about to take the bit out when unbridling her, but I'm not sure if she has caught onto the verbal que just yet.

And she has responded much better in lowering her head. I just put very light pressure on the top of her head and say "head" and she lowers her head. 

Later this month, myself and two other friend boarders will be setting up obstacles in the outdoor arena. One of my friend boarders planned it all with the BO and we got his permission. We have more noodles, and we just picked up a shower curtain (cut it vertically and walk through it), and one of my friend boarders picked up an inflatable swimming pool. This will be great! She's going to try to bring one of her old mattresses as well. We will be recording this. No set date but it will be this month.


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## Rainaisabelle

I think you need to be careful who you give your money to. Not every charity is a charity you should be giving money to


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I think you need to be careful who you give your money to. Not every charity is a charity you should be giving money to


I know, but I have faith in this one. I've been following them on Facebook for many months and checked it out first. Thanks for looking out for me though.


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## Zexious

Am I the only one who thinks that message sounds a little sketchy?

Why not dedicate your time and resources to something nearby that you can personally verify?
Edit -- Just curious ^^


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## Hoofpic

Have a funny video. I have a few apps on my phone that plays horse sounds. Has anyone tried this? So I brought out my big bluetooth speaker to the barn today and played the sounds through there (phone isn't near loud enough). I missed the first few seconds but it starts off with the herd already having heard one whinny and on alert haha. It's pretty funny, we all got a good laugh today.


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## Hoofpic

Can someone tell me what you can use for a stand to hang a cut up shower curtain from? Like this.


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## tinyliny

you'll have to make one, and make it sturdy enough it won't come down if one fo the strips gets stuck on a saddle. this happened to me; the whole thing came down on my lease horse's back and he freaked, pulled out of my hands and ran out of the gate in total terror with the whole thing fluttering off his back. I thought, "here's my worst wreck , about to happen", but it fell off his back and he stopped and looked back for me. what a great horse!

so, whatever structure you create, make it secure enough to not allow the 'shower curtain' to fall off and onto a passing horse.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> you'll have to make one, and make it sturdy enough it won't come down if one fo the strips gets stuck on a saddle. this happened to me; the whole thing came down on my lease horse's back and he freaked, pulled out of my hands and ran out of the gate in total terror with the whole thing fluttering off his back. I thought, "here's my worst wreck , about to happen", but it fell off his back and he stopped and looked back for me. what a great horse!
> 
> so, whatever structure you create, make it secure enough to not allow the 'shower curtain' to fall off and onto a passing horse.


Thanks Liny. I know of a way that would work 100% and probably THE best way in going about it (because I need a setup that we can take down and put up easily and effortlessly). 

It would be a green screen stand that I use for work (but obviously I can't use my boss's lol), with a couple 7lb weights hanging off the bases. Gaurenteed nothing would beat this. but it would cost me $150 for the stands lol. Darn 

These get really sturdy and go up as high as 12ft.










Other than that, it's hard to say what I would use since we need this to be taken down with ease. You would have to build it, and it's going to take time.


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## Dehda01

I normally use a single hoop from a hoop house (8 to 10 ft tall at highest point and 8-10 ft wide) and attach streamers or pool noodles on strings from them and them attach one side to a solid fence and then solidly anchor the other side. either with a jump standard or a t-post. Other options are corral walk throughs. I have made permanent walk throughs with 2x4s.


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## carshon

We use plumbers PVC piping as it is easy to assemble and is very light


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## Prairie

You definitely don't want those legs on the uprights sticking out where the horses could catch a hoof on them if they didn't go through in the middle or spooked sideways-----better would be as suggested by the posts above mine.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I normally use a single hoop from a hoop house (8 to 10 ft tall at highest point and 8-10 ft wide) and attach streamers or pool noodles on strings from them and them attach one side to a solid fence and then solidly anchor the other side. either with a jump standard or a t-post. Other options are corral walk throughs. I have made permanent walk throughs with 2x4s.


The only thing is our jump stands are only maybe 4ft tall and we can't really attach anything on top of it. If they were 2ft taller, then we could at least buy some keyhole like attachments, where they screw into the wood with a loop at the end. Then slide the shower curtain through it. 

Do you have a picture of what you use? To give me a better idea. Thanks.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> You definitely don't want those legs on the uprights sticking out where the horses could catch a hoof on them if they didn't go through in the middle or spooked sideways-----better would be as suggested by the posts above mine.


Good point, thanks. I knew my idea was a safety risk, just like the Walmart step stools for mounting.


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> We use plumbers PVC piping as it is easy to assemble and is very light


I have heard of PVC piping, I will have to look into this. I'm guessing I would need four 6ft high pipes use as the vertical base and feet, then a 10 or 12ft long pipe for the horizontal bar.


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## Hoofpic

Is it possible to drill holes through the sides of these? Then we can slide our wood rods (forgot what they're called) through and hang the noodles at the ends. Now that we have a total of 10 noodles, this would work better than the jump stands.


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## Zexious

^Yes, it is possible to drill holes through pvc.


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> ^Yes, it is possible to drill holes through pvc.


Thanks. I will try that route. Have two legs on each end (to balance it) and a 10 or 12ft pipe up top. That should work!


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## Prairie

There s no need to drill the PVC......just get the right angle fittings. Use PVC for the top too.


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## Dehda01

I don't have one set up right now, you don't need a jump standard taller than 4ft tall. But here is my artistic rendering. I think the metal hoop cost me $30 from a place that sells greenhouses. You just anchor the hoop to the arena fence and the jump standard in 2-3 spots so that it stands firm.


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## tinyliny

that;s about what it looked like in my bad experience, except it was the use of duct tape to anchor it that was the issue. sorry, duct tape in a few spots does not hold up to horses.


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## Dehda01

We zip tie in multiple spots, and then I twang on it. Once it is super solid, then I am willing to have horses come through.


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## Zexious

I'm sure you could buy a premade one.


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## Hoofpic

My friend thinks her horse is mad at her because she didn't come see him for a week. Ummm I didn't know what to say when she told me this, so I just kinda play along with her since I don't want to tell her what to do or think. I know horses live in the moment and they don't flash back nor do they hold grudges.

I know I "used to" attach human emotions to Fly and horses all the time, but I DO NOT ANYMORE. I quit this awhile ago. I know Golden may not agree with me, but I see things in a completely different light than I did before. 

If I went on vacation and didn't see Fly for a week. She couldn't give a ****. She's not going to miss me while I am away. She's not going to hold grudges or be upset at me when I get back. Fly is not going to say "You didn't come see me for a week, where have you been, I miss you, I'm upset at you", because horses don't think that way.


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## PoptartShop

I'm sure her horse was happy to see her, not angry that she didn't see him for a week! I agree, I don't think they hold grudges either. Although, when I came back from vaca (which was for a week) I did feel like Redz was super happy to see me...like maybe he did 'miss' me! LOL


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> I'm sure her horse was happy to see her, not angry that she didn't see him for a week! I agree, I don't think they hold grudges either. Although, when I came back from vaca (which was for a week) I did feel like Redz was super happy to see me...like maybe he did 'miss' me! LOL


I do believe that horses can be happy to see their owners again after they went away for a bit. But I don't think that they miss you or get upset. Remember, when I used to whack Fly really hard, correcting her for something, and I would immediately ask you guys on here on whether she will be upset at me the next time I see her? And I will admit, I would be pretty worried about it. Well I don't ask anymore, because I don't think that way anymore. Now, if I correct her really hard, that incident comes right off my mind the second after I made the correction and I tell myself it never happened. 

My friend was really worried that he was going to get lonely, so she had a friend come out during the week to come cuddle him. I just told her that he won't get lonely and I left it at that. Because I know deep down, her horse has his mates with him, has food and water and that's all he cares about. Now, if she told me this 3 or 4 months ago, then I wouldn't have said this because I had the same mindset that she has now.

But last night when I was talking with my friend, it reminded me to when I had the exact same mindset that she has and how drastically I've changed. I used to be the worst for attaching human emotions to horses and Fly, but I don't anymore.


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## PoptartShop

I see what you're saying. I agree with that- I don't think Fly would hold a grudge against you, if you corrected him assertively. He may get a bit flustered, but I don't think a week after he'd be like *KICK*! Plus, if you praise him for good behavior, which I'm sure you do, he will know 'oh hey, this is better than getting whacked' Lol.
It's important to be assertive with horses. Can't always get somewhere lightly asking them.


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> It's important to be assertive with horses. Can't always get somewhere lightly asking them.


I agree. As much as we would all love for our horse(s) to be on super good perfect behavior everyday of the week, it just doesn't work that way because horses will have their days and what you get from them one day, you can't expect the same for the next. And that all stems from them living in the moment. The pieces of the puzzle have really started to come together for me over the past few months in seeing this.


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## PoptartShop

That is soooo true! I agree completely. You never know what kind of day your HORSE has had, so you always have to be prepared that anything can happen! Like, maybe you had a good day, but your horse didn't, etc etc. So true!


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> That is soooo true! I agree completely. You never know what kind of day your HORSE has had, so you always have to be prepared that anything can happen! Like, maybe you had a good day, but your horse didn't, etc etc. So true!


I agree. I'm just going by my experiences and advice given on here.

Things have really started to come together for me the past few months. I don't feel like the same person that I was when I first got my mare. Mind you, its taken a bit longer than I would have liked for stuff like, not attaching human emotion to horses, not being assertive enough, not being consistent, taking it lightly each time I handle my mare, to REALLY sink into my brain and for me to get it mentally. But I have a much different mindset today than I did even 3 months ago. And that is because I see the picture a lot clearer now.

But I think the biggest thing that I have noticed from myself over the past couple months is that I just go about things with Fly as if it's nothing. I don't anticipate anything, I don't get nervous, I don't put any doubt on her. And this has really helped, because it has allowed me to stop bringing up her age as an excuse.

Even though I STILL have people telling me at the barn, ALL THE TIME, "Oh you have to remember, Fly is still a baby"...."Shes still very young"...."She still has the mentality and mindset of a kid". I just ignore it all. For me, AGE is a non factor when it comes to handling my mare. And over the past month or two, I have seen Fly as no different than the 15 year old lesson mare who I was riding before. 

I feel like a leader and I follow through like one. I didn't before.


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## Hoofpic

I will say one thing. The best decision that I've made for Fly and I was moving from the old barn to the one now. The second best decision that I've made for Fly and I was (all thanks to you guys, thank you) was stop seeing the outside trainer and just sticking with my riding coach. 

Just focus on riding and enough of the groundwork and not bother with liberty. I still love liberty, but I just don't have the knowledge to do it. 

Because if it wasn't for you guys convincing me, Fly and I wouldn't be doing what we are doing today and I would be spending an extra $400 a month for nothing.

Flashing back though, I think what makes me the most upset is how my outside trainer was so against me riding Fly. 

"She's not ready to be ridden"
"Her groundwork is sorely lacking"
"She's only in Phase 1 of the Parelli program"
"If you were to ride her, you would be putting your safety at risk"
"If you were to ride her, it wouldn't mean anything because you and her don't have that connection"
"She needs to see you as a leader on the ground before in the saddle"
"If she was my horse, I wouldn't even get on her, no way"

"What happens if she rears or bucks, how are you going to handle it?"
"I just don't want to see you get hurt"
"I'm just trying to look out for you"

The outside trainer just had SO MUCH doubt in Fly, it was unbelievable. She was SO struck on Fly being a dominant, right brained mare, that she needs a lot of time doing more groundwork to get her to have better manners.

But it's funny how it worked. Ever since I have started riding her, the dots have started to connect, more things have started to come together and I have gotten more and more of her respect. 

P.S. This is EXACTLY what my trainer now said to me last Fall when I arrived at the barn, in what would happen once I start riding Fly.


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## PoptartShop

Wow. I'm glad you moved barns too. That old trainer sounds like such a jerk.
Seems like a negative nancy kind of person. Not good at all, and definitely wouldn't move you forward. She should be encouraging you, not discouraging you! That's ridiculous.
All Fly needed WAS you. You have faith in her!


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> There s no need to drill the PVC......just get the right angle fittings. Use PVC for the top too.


Okay thanks.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I don't have one set up right now, you don't need a jump standard taller than 4ft tall. But here is my artistic rendering. I think the metal hoop cost me $30 from a place that sells greenhouses. You just anchor the hoop to the arena fence and the jump standard in 2-3 spots so that it stands firm.


Thanks, that's much clearer now. Our jump stands are about 4-4.5ft tall but heavy as hell. My friend said we should be able to attach some PVC piping to the top of the jump stands, but I'm not sure how she was planning on having the piping stick to the stands.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> that;s about what it looked like in my bad experience, except it was the use of duct tape to anchor it that was the issue. sorry, duct tape in a few spots does not hold up to horses.


Well plus duck tape is a helluva lot of work to tape and untape.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Well plus duck tape is a helluva lot of work to tape and untape.



No need to use duck tape for what you are doing......the joints just slip over the ends of PVC pipes. The easiest way to set it up would be to pound 2 metal T-posts into the ground the distance apart needed for the uprights, and then slip one over a post. Then add a joint and the vertical piece of PVC at the top, slip the other upright over the other post, the other joint on the vertical and slip it all together.


----------



## carshon

For our cowboy curtain it has its own base made of PVC it put together with angles so it looks like it has feet ( I don't have pics) we do sometime use a bungee cord to bungee it to the fence - it is easily moved around and disassembled


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> No need to use duck tape for what you are doing......the joints just slip over the ends of PVC pipes. The easiest way to set it up would be to pound 2 metal T-posts into the ground the distance apart needed for the uprights, and then slip one over a post. Then add a joint and the vertical piece of PVC at the top, slip the other upright over the other post, the other joint on the vertical and slip it all together.


Okay thanks. I think I know what you mean.


----------



## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> For our cowboy curtain it has its own base made of PVC it put together with angles so it looks like it has feet ( I don't have pics) we do sometime use a bungee cord to bungee it to the fence - it is easily moved around and disassembled


Bungee cords are great, I love them. Can pretty much hold anything in place.


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## Hoofpic

Everyone should read this, such a touching story.

http://blog.theanimalrescuesite.com/abused-horse-duo-rescued/


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## Prairie

Don't be so gullible Hoofpic.......slaughter houses will not accept starving horses! Even after 2 years the Belgian's weight is too low so the best alternative would be to PTS to end his suffering.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Don't be so gullible Hoofpic.......slaughter houses will not accept starving horses! .


That's what I thought too. So do you think the story is exaggerated?


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## Hoofpic




----------



## Hoofpic

My BO and trainer are going to laugh over this one. This is one of my trainers geldings. Im going to print all of these in the morning and give a set to the BO to put up.


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## TimWhit91

I always love the pictures you take hoofpic. Maybe think about setting up at shows and selling prints of people? I think you would learn a lot doing that and male some money doing something fun


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## tinyliny

if this isn't a great shot of "Mare Glare", I don't know what is.


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## Hoofpic

TimWhit91 said:


> I always love the pictures you take hoofpic. Maybe think about setting up at shows and selling prints of people? I think you would learn a lot doing that and male some money doing something fun


Thanks. I would consider it, but realistically I don't have a portfolio (I used to shoot weddings when I was in my mid 20's but I quit it, due to it being too much work and too competitive. 

I print these pictures out at Walmart (can't beat 10 cents per print, the paper alone costs me more than that, let alone a printer and then ink), and give it to my friend boarders and BO and they are always so thankful for it. They love their pictures and I love doing it and making their day and seeing them happy.

Here is a pic that I got of one of my BO's goats. Turns out (from talking with a friend boarder), that this goat is his favourite! I mixed it in with his set today with all the other pics, so it should catch him by surprise. I didn't talk to him today, so I just secretly put his envelope of prints on the seat of his gator to surprise him.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> if this isn't a great shot of "Mare Glare", I don't know what is.


That's what I thought too. Fly has a snarky look on her face in that pic. She doesn't look very impressed lol.


----------



## Hoofpic

I have made some good friends at the barn over the past few weeks. We talk just about every couple days now (through email). Today, I went with a friend boarder to check out a lake that was somewhat close to our barn (3.2km each way), as she was telling me about it and how she would like to take her horse down there sometime to hang out. The BO used to always do this with his horses. I said I would be in for it. 

So we went to check it out to see how far it would be in KM to ride or walk our horses there and back. It's 3.2KM each way, it's just down the gravel road.

I think this would be an amazing spot to hang out with your horse(s). She wants to do it some day, I said I'm up for it. You would just have to pack food and water with you for the horses as you would have to have lunch at the lake, since it's a good distance. 

Here are a couple pics that I got today.


























My mare is going to be exhausted, the Fall clinic is this weekend! I'm so excited and will be recording it. I will be riding her 3 times in 2 days lol. It will be an experience for the both of us. I've never ridden twice in one day before. 

When I rode my friend boarders mare in the Spring clinic, I was exhausted and I only rode twice on two days.

Plus, I have a lesson with my trainer on Wed, so she will be ridden 4 times this week. I rode her 3 times this past week. So that will be 7 times that she will be ridden in two weeks.


----------



## waresbear

Love your pictures, you have a talent. Have fun at the clinic.


----------



## Hoofpic

So my BO's oldest daughter (and her hubby and kids) are in town for almost a week visiting (from last Thursday to this Tuesday). They are staying at the barn because the two girls want to be there and ride horses, so one of my BO's daughters hooked them up with a trailer rental for the time being. Now this trailer is HUGE! Pretty much the size of a RV, and it's parked not far from my mare's field (about 100ft), so each time I catch her, we walk past it. Now Thursday I did not see Fly, but on Friday when I walked her past the trailer, she was not completely comfortable with it. But I just led her past it as if the trailer isn't even there.

Now, yesterday I said to myself, I'm going to ride her past the trailer, and I did! I mean after all, it's not everyday where you have a massive trailer at the barn, so take full advantage of it. This trailer is probably about 8 feet tall by 18 or 20 feet long.

She wasn't completely comfortable walking past it with me on her back, at first she was a bit hesitant, but she did it, three times. She was noticeably more calm the third time we went by it. Right from the start. I just told her to walk on as if the trailer wasn't even there. There was the trailer, and then a big thick "snake like" hose for the water to be connected to it, so she was a bit uncomfortable with that as well.

So today, I got to the barn and two of my friend boarders were there and they noticed the trailer. They said that they would love to walk their horses by it, maybe even ride outside and ride them past it. I said let's do it, because I went to the barn today with already planning riding Fly past the trailer again. I wanted to build from yesterday. I told them that I was able to ride Fly past it yesterday.

So all three of us got saddled up and off we go. I was so confident (seeing how I was able to get Fly past it 3 times just yesterday), that it wouldn't be a problem for Fly again. Well...it was. The two friend boarders who I was riding with (both riding on mares), their mares were uncomfortable and spooking and they wouldn't go near the trailer and Fly totally fed off their energy. I tried 3 times and I just couldn't get Fly even past the hose that was connected to the trailer. She would back up and turn around, so then I would make her go back and do a full circle, then ask again. Nope, she didn't want anything to do with it. She was totally feeding off the other two mare's energy, even though I was so calm as can be and I was even taking deep breaths throughout.

So we said, okay let's walk them down the driveway to the main road (I've done this with Fly 4 or 5 times, but it was on my own), and again same thing. The other two mares saw a yellow power cord going across the driveway from the BO's house to the trailer and also the garden right next to it was looking a bit different because some people were planting new vegetables in it. The other two mares wouldn't go past the cord and Fly totally fed off them spooking and she wouldn't go near it. 

I was pretty disappointed but nothing I could have done. So one of the friend boarders and I said we will ride them past the mini donkeys. Same thing. The other mare was spooking and Fly wanted no part of walking past the mini donkeys even though I've walked her past them 10-12 times now and have ridden her past them twice. So I had to hope off Fly and walk her past the mini donkeys. Immediate lick and chew from her.

Then we went back to the trailer and I did the same thing by walking her past the trailer twice. Again, immediate lick and chew. Because there was no way that I was going to leave things like that on a bad note.

It's amazing how horses mirror each others body language and energy. If I was by myself, I know Fly wouldn't have backed down riding past the trailer, or down the driveway or past the mini donkeys. It's just one of those days I guess for the 3 mares today.

Tomorrow, my friend boarders and I are going to give this another go. All 3 of us will try this again.

Maybe I will set up my camera and I would like for you guys to watch and give me advice on what I'm doing wrong. Even though my two friend boarders were not able to ride their mares past the trailer, I still should have been able to (considering I just did it yesterday), so I was really disappointed. But I know, horses are horses and what you get one day, doesn't mean you will get the same the next. So I know I can't be too hard on myself.


----------



## anndankev

I imagine that your frame of mind was not in it's usual place due to riding with others and being concerned, possibly nervous, about what they thought about you (your riding).

And that your feelings were what Fly was feeding off of.

Food for thought.


----------



## Hoofpic

anndankev said:


> I imagine that your frame of mind was not in it's usual place due to riding with others and being concerned, possibly nervous, about what they thought about you (your riding).
> 
> And that your feelings were what Fly was feeding off of.
> 
> Food for thought.


I wasn't nervous at all. I was relaxed and confident in her. 

I have another question.

What does it mean when someone is riding a horse and the horses head is up. Like way up.

Isn't the horses head suppose to be down and lowered a bit?


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Could mean a lot of things depending on the situation, racehorses when first coming off the track and when told to slow or stop will throw their head in the air


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Could mean a lot of things depending on the situation, racehorses when first coming off the track and when told to slow or stop will throw their head in the air


Okay thanks. I guess I should have mentioned as well that the horse will be short stepping when they get ridden with their neck and head up high.


----------



## EliRose

Pictures/video? Probably improper riding or a green bean.


----------



## tinyliny

horses raise their heads to see things in the distance. it is necessary for them to change the focal distance. they also raise their heads if they are on high alert, again, I think for visual reasons.

Sounds like you are having some fun at the barn. 
I have a bit of a chuckle becuase it always seems that horses that spend a good part of their lives in a stall , or riding in an indoor arena are usually so much spookier than horses that live outside, and ride outside, every single day.


----------



## anndankev

Hoofpic said:


> I wasn't nervous at all. I was relaxed and confident in her. ...




Well, Okay then.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well my friend who I've been ignoring and not in contact with the past 3 weeks just texted me this morning saying hi, he is in India right now as his mother passed away.

Now, I know that I made myself a set promise that I would not talk to him anymore. But when someone's family member passes away, it's pretty difficult not to. Ah now what do I do! I said that I wasn't going to be friends with him anymore.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Pictures/video? Probably improper riding or a green bean.


No video. It's just one of the boarders at the barn who rides like this. I don't mean to sound nosey or anything but it really bothers me the way she rides her horse. Just yesterday she was screaming at her mare and called her a stupid horse. She is INCREDIBLY HARD ON ALL HORSES SHE RIDES. She rides ALL horses with zero slack in the reins and the horses head is upwards and they are short striding. When she does a canter or trot, there is zero slack in the reins. She is pulling back so hard that the horse's head is pulled right back and up. 

So when you watch the horse, the horse is moving their legs and feet but their head is not moving at all because it's so far back.

The reason I bring this up is because I was chatting with the BO a few months ago in the viewing area and this boarder was riding in the arena. Now the BO and this boarder are VERY close, he treats her like his daughter. So I am very careful about what I say to him and I keep my personal opinion on her to myself. 

So anyways, the boarder was getting really upset because the horse she was riding was short striding and she didn't like it. She kept kicking her and kicking her and screaming at her while coming back to the BO for advice. She was screaming so loud we could hear her from the viewing room. The BO said that she needs to relax, stop screaming and easy on the reins. The horse is tense because the rider is tense. Let her head come down a bit and she will give a better and longer stride.

Just watching totally reminded me of being "soft in the saddle" and it's just when I see this person ride, it's noticeably different from say when I watch my trainer ride. I'm not saying that she is abusing her horse, but it's debatable on whether you need to be that rough on your horse. When she rides horses (and I've watched her quite a bit, but I can't anymore because it really annoys me), I got the feeling that none of the horses were having fun.


----------



## Hoofpic

I fully understand that everyone is different in how they handle their horse, and rightfully so and it's none of my business. But I still believe that lightness is the ultimate goal that you are always trying to achieve with any horse, whether it's on the ground or in the saddle. 

Maybe it was my exposure to Parelli that has had see and acknowledge the important nature of being extra light when working with horses. But I'm just not a believer in lashing out on horses, screaming at them, calling them stupid or giving overly rough ques. Like for instance, this one boarder, I've been in the barn enough times when she was in the arena working her mare and even hearing her lunging her horse in the background was a bit upsetting to me. If her horse doesn't respond to her que the first time she asks, she lashes out on them like an animal. I just don't believe in that. To achieve softness with your horse, you need to be able to gradually build them up to that stage and you can't by lashing out at them on the 2nd time of you asking. You need to give the horse a chance. Maybe I'm out to lunch here, and I'm sure I will get some negative feedback on this post, but this is just how I see it.

Two of my best personal qualities has always been 1) My calmness, I can handle my anger easily and I never show it in public, and 2) My patience. I think this is why Fly and I made for a great pair. Over the past few months, I've really acknowledged that Fly has taught me to become even more patient as well as being confident in her. She has shown me that she will obey and do what is being asked of, as long as I am fair and I make it very direct and visible in what I want. I have a lot more confidence in Fly today than I did 3 months ago and it's simply from Fly showing and telling me that she WILL try her hardest for me, as long as I am fair to her about it and I reward her as she is learning. So as a result, I have become a lot more confident in Fly, especially after now cleaning up the bit, unbridling issues and teaching her to stand at the block for me nicely. The #1 thing that she has taught me, is being much more observant of my surroundings. I notice that I am just a much more observant and aware person in my everyday life outside the barn.

I find myself laughing and smiling when around her a lot more now. If she is feeling tension, I will purposely take a deep breath so she knows it and feeds off it. When we are just hanging out, I will make it as visible as I can to her through my body language that I am relaxed. I still owe big props to my former outside trainer for really teaching me how to switch on and off body language so well and visibly. I owe her a big thanks on this one.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> horses raise their heads to see things in the distance. it is necessary for them to change the focal distance. they also raise their heads if they are on high alert, again, I think for visual reasons.
> 
> Sounds like you are having some fun at the barn.
> I have a bit of a chuckle becuase it always seems that horses that spend a good part of their lives in a stall , or riding in an indoor arena are usually so much spookier than horses that live outside, and ride outside, every single day.


I can confidently say that I am having the time of my life right now with Fly. I have never been happier working with her. 

The #1 thing is that I have completely flipped my mindset. No more doubts when working with Fly, no more questioning her, no more human emotions, no more age factor (even though people at the barn are still bringing it up with me, "she's still a baby" GRR), because she has shown me her work ethic and her willing to please. SHE IS A GOOD HORSE.

So I have become so confident in her that (over the past couple months), I've noticed how much more natural it feels when handling and working with her. I don't have near the amount of stuff on the back of my mind anymore. I'm not worrying nearly as much about things. I'm not going home upset or concerned about something. No matter what I do with her, I go in with the mindset that it is no big deal to her and she has done it a million times. So that way I'm not anticipating outcomes. And the most important thing is that I want her to have fun. I want to make it fun for the both of us.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Well my friend who I've been ignoring and not in contact with the past 3 weeks just texted me this morning saying hi, he is in India right now as his mother passed away.
> 
> Now, I know that I made myself a set promise that I would not talk to him anymore. But when someone's family member passes away, it's pretty difficult not to. Ah now what do I do! I said that I wasn't going to be friends with him anymore.


Just text him back with a simple- "I'm so sorry to hear of your Mom's passing. You and your family are in my thoughts."


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Just text him back with a simple- "I'm so sorry to hear of your Mom's passing. You and your family are in my thoughts."


Thanks, that's what I was thinking too. Nothing more than that and I will not contact him anymore. I will reply to his text tomorrow. I'm busy and he is of no importance to me anymore.

See what I mean when I say that he only contacts me when he needs something from me? That is not a true friend. True friends always get back to you no matter what. They make and find time for you.


----------



## Hoofpic

Yesterday, one of my friend boarders and I were thinking of what we can do together with our horses and we eventually brought some obstacles into the outdoor arena and brought our mares in there to just work with them on the ground.

One of the objects was a flag that we have in our barn, like this, just not as tall (it's about 8ft tall when standing). 










Fly has never been around a flag like this, and I've been wanting to get her used to it. I think after yesterday, she seemed to warm up to it and not be too bothered about a tall object standing over top of her.

My end goal is that I would like to be able to have her stand and I wave the big flag over her head, back and fourth without her moving or getting uncomfortable. If I can rub the flag all over her that would be even better, but that is not a realistic goal right now.

I circled her around the flag, walked over it, and got her to follow it while I held it up and ahead of us while walking. With the flag standing upright, it's almost twice the height of her so I wanted to get her used to being around a moving flag that is higher than her. She eventually sniffed it, walked up to it, even started chewing on it a bit.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic.. Not your circus not your monkeys. Don't even worry about it.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Yesterday, one of my friend boarders and I were thinking of what we can do together with our horses and we eventually brought some obstacles into the outdoor arena and brought our mares in there to just work with them on the ground.
> 
> One of the objects was a flag that we have in our barn, like this, just not as tall (it's about 8ft tall when standing).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fly has never been around a flag like this, and I've been wanting to get her used to it. I think after yesterday, she seemed to warm up to it and not be too bothered about a tall object standing over top of her.
> 
> My end goal is that I would like to be able to have her stand and I wave the big flag over her head, back and fourth without her moving or getting uncomfortable. If I can rub the flag all over her that would be even better, but that is not a realistic goal right now.
> 
> I circled her around the flag, walked over it, and got her to follow it while I held it up and ahead of us while walking. With the flag standing upright, it's almost twice the height of her so I wanted to get her used to being around a moving flag that is higher than her. She eventually sniffed it, walked up to it, even started chewing on it a bit.


I hope you're not walking on the American flag or even putting it on the ground.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, that's what I was thinking too. Nothing more than that and I will not contact him anymore. I will reply to his text tomorrow. I'm busy and he is of no importance to me anymore.
> 
> See what I mean when I say that he only contacts me when he needs something from me? That is not a true friend. True friends always get back to you no matter what. They make and find time for you.



That friend did not ask anything of you, and all he did was inform you that his mother died as a courtesy so you would know where he is. Just send him a sympathy card if you don't want to continue the friendship.


Stay out of what others are doing with their horses and how they ride---You have neither the knowledge or experience to judge others.


----------



## updownrider

Hoofpic said:


> One of the objects was a flag that we have in our barn, like this, just not as tall (it's about 8ft tall when standing).


I thought you were in Canada, why is your barn flying the US flag?


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, that's what I was thinking too. Nothing more than that and I will not contact him anymore. I will reply to his text tomorrow. I'm busy and he is of no importance to me anymore.
> 
> See what I mean when I say that he only contacts me when he needs something from me? That is not a true friend. True friends always get back to you no matter what. They make and find time for you.


Whaaaaat? What did he need from you? He gave you an FYI about his mothers passing. How is that asking something of you?

And you are not going to contact him until tomorrow because you want to show him how little he means to you, yet you spew on about what true friendship is? Well, aren't you all that and a bag of chips. And THE perfect friend no doubt.

His MOTHER died in India, he doesn't have time for you period at the moment. Your mother lives does she not? Do you know what it feels like?

How rude and insensitive your post came across. I would do almost anything to talk to my mom one more time. One more time.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Chewing on the American flag?

That is horrid.


----------



## Golden Horse

natisha said:


> I hope you're not walking on the American flag or even putting it on the ground.


Or Canadian, or the flag of any country when it comes to it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Hoofpic.. Not your circus not your monkeys. Don't even worry about it.


Okay.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I hope you're not walking on the American flag or even putting it on the ground.





updownrider said:


> I thought you were in Canada, why is your barn flying the US flag?




No, no, it's no countries flag, it's just a random one. I was just posting that pic to give you an idea of the size of it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> That friend did not ask anything of you, and all he did was inform you that his mother died as a courtesy so you would know where he is. Just send him a sympathy card if you don't want to continue the friendship.
> 
> 
> Stay out of what others are doing with their horses and how they ride---You have neither the knowledge or experience to judge others.


I'm staying out of it, I was just posting my thoughts that's all.



sarahfromsc said:


> Whaaaaat? What did he need from you? He gave you an FYI about his mothers passing. How is that asking something of you?
> 
> And you are not going to contact him until tomorrow because you want to show him how little he means to you, yet you spew on about what true friendship is? Well, aren't you all that and a bag of chips. And THE perfect friend no doubt.
> 
> His MOTHER died in India, he doesn't have time for you period at the moment. Your mother lives does she not? Do you know what it feels like?
> 
> How rude and insensitive your post came across. I would do almost anything to talk to my mom one more time. One more time.


My intention isn't to be rude. I'm just giving him a day before I get back to him, I've been very busy today.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> No, no, it's no countries flag, it's just a random one. I was just posting that pic to give you an idea of the size of it.


That's good to know.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> I'm staying out of it, I was just posting my thoughts that's all.
> 
> 
> 
> My intention isn't to be rude. I'm just giving him a day before I get back to him, I've been very busy today.


Hmpf.

Again, what did he ask of you? He sent a text. What did he ask of you in that text?


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Hmpf.
> 
> Again, what did he ask of you? He sent a text. What did he ask of you in that text?


I don't know but I just feel he is reaching out to me because he wants support.


----------



## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> I don't know but I just feel he is reaching out to me because he wants support.


That's why we have friends!


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I don't know but I just feel he is reaching out to me because he wants support.


Is that too much to ask?


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> That's why we have friends!


I know everyone here has said that I need to make friends at my barn. Well I have, I have two real good friends now that I talk to outside of the barn.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Is that too much to ask?


No it's not too much to ask. 

How come you don't want to post here anymore? I know it's me.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> I don't know but I just feel he is reaching out to me because he wants support.


Whaaaaaat? Support? How hard is that?

I thought that was the essence of friendship.....supporting one another when needed.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> No it's not too much to ask.
> 
> How come you don't want to post here anymore? I know it's me.


No, it is not you, directly....it is not good for my mental health.


----------



## jaydee

I see a big difference between a true friend who wants support and is always going to be there for you when you need it and one that is just using you for support when they need it but will be noticeably absent if you ever need it
I get the feeling from other things posted that this 'friend' of hoofpics fits into the latter category but when it comes down too it what he does is his business and certainly not mine so not for me to judge.


----------



## Whinnie

jaydee said:


> I see a big difference between a true friend who wants support and is always going to be there for you when you need it and one that is just using you for support when they need it but will be noticeably absent if you ever need it
> I get the feeling from other things posted that this 'friend' of hoofpics fits into the latter category but when it comes down too it what he does is his business and certainly not mine so not for me to judge.



I agree, but when he posts stuff like that on a public forum he makes it other's business and he's going to get comments.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Look, dude, I realize he hasn't necessarily been a good friend to you. But, obviously, he puts some value in your relationship. He reached out to you when his *MOM* died. Compassion and empathy cost nothing, so spread it around. When he is back, then distance yourself.


----------



## greentree

It is possible....being a GUY and all...that his mother has been ill for a while, and he has been trying to find some support ( in you, hoofpic), by asking you to DO things for him, searching for the " right time" in the relationship to seek comfort. Youprobably never asked, "How's yer Mom'n'em doin',???" We DO that down here in the South.....


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I see a big difference between a true friend who wants support and is always going to be there for you when you need it and one that is just using you for support when they need it but will be noticeably absent if you ever need it
> I get the feeling from other things posted that this 'friend' of hoofpics fits into the latter category but when it comes down too it what he does is his business and certainly not mine so not for me to judge.


I don't mean to be negative about this all, but I'm still 100% confident that he is more of an acquaintance than a friend. Real friends are extremely hard to come by. He was a good friend at first when we first met 6 or 7 years ago (we used to work together), but he's changed...a lot.

I've been down this road so many times in my life. People who I thought were friends, turned out not to be friends after all. It's tough to make friends.

Honestly, I don't know about you, but being in a friendship with someone where communication is primarily coming from you, it's incredibly uninteresting and boring for me. It feels like you are talking to yourself, to a wall all the time.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Look, dude, I realize he hasn't necessarily been a good friend to you. But, obviously, he puts some value in your relationship. He reached out to you when his *MOM* died. Compassion and empathy cost nothing, so spread it around. When he is back, then distance yourself.


That's what I plan on doing. I texted him back today saying how I'm sorry to hear what happened. When it comes back, it won't matter to me. I'm too busy with my own stuff going on anyways.

If he wants more support, then I'm okay with it. I will give it to him. But I am not going to hang out with him anymore or talk about other stuff anymore.


----------



## greentree

"Honestly, I don't know about you, but being in a friendship with someone where communication is primarily coming from you, it's incredibly uninteresting and boring for me. It feels like you are talking to yourself, to a wall all the time."

Ummm, yeah. We understand this completely.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> It is possible....being a GUY and all...that his mother has been ill for a while, and he has been trying to find some support ( in you, hoofpic), by asking you to DO things for him, searching for the " right time" in the relationship to seek comfort. Youprobably never asked, "How's yer Mom'n'em doin',???" We DO that down here in the South.....


No I had no idea about the state of his mother.

He just texted me back saying thanks, and that he will touch base with me when he gets back in town. Uhh. :neutral:


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I've been down this road so many times in my life. People who I thought were friends, turned out not to be friends after all. It's tough to make friends.
> .


Just sit down and think about that one for a moment.....

From that statement where you have "been down this road so many times" tells me that it is NOT tough to make friends, but you struggle to maintain friendships.

Maybe think about why that is?

Now some friendships can't be maintained because they take to much energy, I do agree, BUT, BUT.....I have just had someone, who I believed that I had invested a lot in, do me a HUGE favour, when no one else stepped up. See it's hard to know when people will need each other, it is a give and take.


----------



## tinyliny

greentree said:


> No, it is not you, directly....it is not good for my mental health.



then just don't. reminds me of my mom who would always say, "I shouldn't be eating this', . . . and then go right ahead and eat the yummy fattening thing. either do -without apology, or don't do_- without commentary..

anyone who feels they are going to be hurting themselves or anyone else to post here , please don't.


----------



## updownrider

jaydee said:


> I see a big difference between a true friend who wants support and is always going to be there for you when you need it and one that is just using you for support when they need it but will be noticeably absent if you ever need it
> I get the feeling from other things posted that this 'friend' of hoofpics fits into the latter category but when it comes down too it what he does is his business and certainly not mine so not for me to judge.


I agree that what hoofpic posts on his journal are his thoughts as he writes them, but this is a horse board, not a personal relationship board that has nothing to do with horses. You were pretty clear in this post a few weeks ago that his journal should be about his progress with his horse and his riding.



jaydee said:


> Can I make a small suggestion here
> This is supposed to be a journal about hoofpic's progress with his horse and his riding
> If you give him advice or make a comment in response to something he posts and he doesn't accept it then that's his prerogative - and if you don't like that he doesn't take your advice then don't give it any more.


----------



## jaydee

And I still do think that this should be about hoofpics horse progress and if he makes comments about his personal life they should be ignored unless he specifically asks for advice in which case maybe a thread in 'off topic' would be more suitable
He's not a teenager..........................


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

People talk about all sorts of things in their HF journals, from chickens, to goats, to emotional states, to friends, family and spouses; life happens, even when you own horses. 

As journal guests, be helpful where you can and keep it polite.

Just my two cents.....


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Just sit down and think about that one for a moment.....
> 
> From that statement where you have "been down this road so many times" tells me that it is NOT tough to make friends, but you struggle to maintain friendships.
> 
> Maybe think about why that is?
> 
> Now some friendships can't be maintained because they take to much energy, I do agree, BUT, BUT.....I have just had someone, who I believed that I had invested a lot in, do me a HUGE favour, when no one else stepped up. See it's hard to know when people will need each other, it is a give and take.


I've brought this up with you before. I have gone through bad people/crowds in my past. But the most important thing is that I learned from it and moved on. And when I mean bad crowds and people, I mean REALLY bad. Drugs, criminals etc. Mind you, this was 15+ years ago when I was still in college, but still, it's something that I went through no matter how I look at it and I come clean with people. I don't hide it from anyone and am not ashamed of myself in admitting my past. But the most important thing is that I have grown up from it and moved on and become a better person.

I'm just very cautious now when getting to know people and making friends. Not saying that everyone out there is bad, but coming from someone who never knew how to stand up for myself when I was younger, it's just harder and takes longer for me to earn someones trust etc.


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## Hoofpic

A bit OT here.

I do get random people (that I meet) comment to me about this every now and then, but lately I had my friend boarders and my BO tell me that I have a very marketable skill that is always in demand. Now, I know exactly what they are referring to but the main reason why I don't pursue it again on the side is because I don't want to be self employed again (even if it's part time). I've gone this route for 7 or 8 years when I was fresh out of college and it's not a path I want to take again in my life. I'm just not the type who wants to be working weekends, late nights, over 40 hours a week. But also, I am 35 and I'm not getting any younger. Something tells me that I should bust my behind some more for the next 5 years, so that I have more future reward. It is tempting in a way, and I will admit, ever since I got let go from my last job in December 2015, it has been on my mind on and off. But it's so competitive out there, it's not even funny.


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## Hoofpic

It's Friday and I'm so excited for the clinic this weekend, but I'm going to be so fatigued and probably very sore haha. I've never rode twice in a day before, especially 1.5 hours each ride. That is a long time trotting, Fly is going to be so tired as well.

This one is just a small one though. Last Spring there was 4 or 5 riders in the arena per group, this time it is 3-4.


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## TaMMa89

*MODERATORS' NOTE*

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For avoiding further sanctions, please respect the OP. Please notice that the OP is allowed to set the direction, topics and tone in his/her journal in the Journals Subforum. Things such as advice and critiques should come about by request only. Guest commenters in journals are asked to likewise participate within the guidelines of this policy as a curtesy to the host. 

The Horseforum.com Moderating Team


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## Hoofpic

I'm exhausted, tomorrow will be even harder because I ride in the morning and again in the afternoon. But this is a great experience for Fly, it's her very first clinic! 

I'm super worried and paranoid right now because my saddle accidentally fell to the barn floor today), on hard sand/dirt), and I couldn't quite make out whether it fell directly onto it's side and the saddle itself took the initial blunt to the ground, or if the tree did. But I'm almost certain that the tree took the blunt.

I immediately checked afterwards to see if the tree moved at all in any of the 4 directions, or if any sounds were coming from it. Nothing. Still as solid as it was before. But is it still possible that my tree could still be crooked, but it's so minor that I wouldn't see the tree move or make sounds when I try to put pressure to it's left, right, forward, back?

I know when I first was testing it out from the store, I did the check where you put the saddle upside down on grass (so that the tree is poking into the ground), and put pressure on the saddle to see if the tree moves anywhere or makes any sounds. Then flip the saddle onto both sides and rinse and repeat. 

Sorry, I'm just a bit paranoid because i know that riding a horse in a saddle with a bent or crooked tree can and is very damaging to their body. Serious long term injuries can result from it. So I am just taking all the precaution that I can.

How strong are these trees?

How would you suggest I check again to make sure the tree is okay?


----------



## TimWhit91

I'm sure it is fine. My saddle has taken many spills off rank horses. Even stepped on by said horses a couple times. It is tough


----------



## Hoofpic

TimWhit91 said:


> I'm sure it is fine. My saddle has taken many spills off rank horses. Even stepped on by said horses a couple times. It is tough


Okay thanks. You are right, it most likely is fine. I just wasn't happy with myself when it happened. It would really suck having to buy a whole new saddle again and go through the entire saddle fitting process all over again. 

How do trees get crooked anyways? Just by time and age?


----------



## Hoofpic

I'm just curious, why do so many people believe so strongly that a horse can't handle more than 20% of it's body weight from the rider? 

I don't believe in it. I believe what you guys told me, that a horse can handle more than 20%.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think of it this way...

I can carry a well balanced, well fitting, 80 lb back pack for a five mile hike on flats (I am 48 yo, 5'4" and weigh 110#) I can't do the same on mountains, I can't do it all day like my son-in-law who is an active duty US Marine and I can't do it without a good back rub at night to relieve the tension in my muscles. 

If the pack is not well balanced, I end up on my back like a turtle rolling around on the ground. If it doesn't fit well, I end up with hot spots much more quickly than with a lighter pack. I also find that to compensate for the extreme weight ratio, I change how I move, making it unnatural, which in turn makes me even more sore. 

If I was to do it every day I might be able to increase my ability to schlep that pack, increase the distance, be able to carry it up mountains, reduce my soreness and what not, through conditioning, but I will never be able to do it with the ease and to the extent that my SIL can. 

Because of age and physiology, over time, it will wear on my joints more than it will on his, which would lead to a higher chance of developing back problems like compressed disks, problems in my knees and maybe hips. 

Can a horse handle more than 20% of its weight? Yes, and so can I, but not without increasing the risk of long term issues somewhere down the road.

This being said there are many things that we do riding that increases the risk of long term injury to the horse such as jumping, barrel racing, working cattle......so at some point you just need to stop worrying too much, control the things you can and ride.

Saddle fit, conditioning, rider balance, the amount and type of activity and yes, reducing the ratio of weight are all things that can reduce the risk to the horse.


----------



## Hoofpic

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I think of it this way...
> 
> I can carry a well balanced, well fitting, 80 lb back pack for a five mile hike on flats (I am 48 yo, 5'4" and weigh 110#) I can't do the same on mountains, I can't do it all day like my son-in-law who is an active duty US Marine and I can't do it without a good back rub at night to relieve the tension in my muscles.
> 
> If the pack is not well balanced, I end up on my back like a turtle rolling around on the ground. If it doesn't fit well, I end up with hot spots much more quickly than with a lighter pack. I also find that to compensate for the extreme weight ratio, I change how I move, making it unnatural, which in turn makes me even more sore.
> 
> If I was to do it every day I might be able to increase my ability to schlep that pack, increase the distance, be able to carry it up mountains, reduce my soreness and what not, through conditioning, but I will never be able to do it with the ease and to the extent that my SIL can.
> 
> Because of age and physiology, over time, it will wear on my joints more than it will on his, which would lead to a higher chance of developing back problems like compressed disks, problems in my knees and maybe hips.
> 
> Can a horse handle more than 20% of its weight? Yes, and so can I, but not without increasing the risk of long term issues somewhere down the road.
> 
> This being said there are many things that we do riding that increases the risk of long term injury to the horse such as jumping, barrel racing, working cattle......so at some point you just need to stop worrying too much, control the things you can and ride.
> 
> Saddle fit, conditioning, rider balance, the amount and type of activity and yes, reducing the ratio of weight are all things that can reduce the risk to the horse.


Thank you. That is true, I agree.

For instance, the BO's farrier has told a former boarder (she left 2 months ago), that she was too heavy for her horse (the boarder was wondering why she would get lame all the time), and the horse had a bad back. But the boarder wouldn't listen and would come out to see her horse once a month and ride her hard, to the moon and back.

I would say the boarder was about 400lbs and the horse was not much heavier than Fly. Maybe 1100lbs tops (according to what the BO estimated). 

My BO did bring up a good point with me many months back before I even started riding Fly. He said that, once Fly gains muscle, she will be able to support and handle more weight and she will handle my weight more effortlessly. And remember, this is coming from someone (and my trainer as well), who both (when I first arrived at the barn last September), was questioning on whether I was too heavy for Fly. But from them seeing me ride Fly and seeing Fly handle me on her back, they obviously don't think that way anymore and see that Fly is having no issues whatsoever supporting my weight. 

And the good thing is that, it's not like I'm pushing Fly hard or jumping her. She's just a pleasure horse. 

I am still very curious to find out how much my saddle weighs though. If only my barn had a hard and perfectly flat surface


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

If you know the brand and model of the saddle, you can look it up on line, sometimes in the detailed sale descriptions they will tell you the weight.


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## tinyliny

It's unlikely that a 400 lb woman could even mount up on a horse. that's some serious weight. my guess is that, as a slim man, you are overestimating her weight, perhaps grouping all large/fat women into one group. I am fat, and I weigh just a bit over 200 lbs. I struggle to mount. a woman of twice my weight would likely find it impossible.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I am still very curious to find out how much my saddle weighs though. If only my barn had a hard and perfectly flat surface


Stand on a scale and weigh yourself. Then pick up your saddle and stand on the scale again. Subtract your weight= weight of your saddle.


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Thank you. That is true, I agree.
> 
> For instance, the BO's farrier has told a former boarder (she left 2 months ago), that she was too heavy for her horse (the boarder was wondering why she would get lame all the time), and the horse had a bad back. But the boarder wouldn't listen and would come out to see her horse once a month and ride her hard, to the moon and back.
> 
> I would say the boarder was about 400lbs and the horse was not much heavier than Fly. Maybe 1100lbs tops (according to what the BO estimated).
> 
> My BO did bring up a good point with me many months back before I even started riding Fly. He said that, once Fly gains muscle, she will be able to support and handle more weight and she will handle my weight more effortlessly. And remember, this is coming from someone (and my trainer as well), who both (when I first arrived at the barn last September), was questioning on whether I was too heavy for Fly. But from them seeing me ride Fly and seeing Fly handle me on her back, they obviously don't think that way anymore and see that Fly is having no issues whatsoever supporting my weight.
> 
> And the good thing is that, it's not like I'm pushing Fly hard or jumping her. She's just a pleasure horse.
> 
> I am still very curious to find out how much my saddle weighs though. If only my barn had a hard and perfectly flat surface


I highly doubt she was 400 lbs.


----------



## Hoofpic

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> If you know the brand and model of the saddle, you can look it up on line, sometimes in the detailed sale descriptions they will tell you the weight.


Thanks. That is true, but mine doesn't have a brand lol. It just is made in Canada from what I see and possibly the same province that I'm in.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> It's unlikely that a 400 lb woman could even mount up on a horse. that's some serious weight. my guess is that, as a slim man, you are overestimating her weight, perhaps grouping all large/fat women into one group. I am fat, and I weigh just a bit over 200 lbs. I struggle to mount. a woman of twice my weight would likely find it impossible.





EliRose said:


> I highly doubt she was 400 lbs.


Well, one of my friend boarders thinks she is 500lbs. Just gauging by how big one of my former branch managers was at my old job (I initially though that he was 400lbs, but another branch manager said he's at least 700lbs), I would say this other rider is at least 300-350. Still, that's a lot for any horse to handle unless that horse is a 2000lb Percheron, Thoroughbread, or Clydesdale.

She uses the block and does struggle a bit to mount from what I've seen. 

But I'm not going to go on about it, I will get in trouble and cause too much backlash on here.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Stand on a scale and weigh yourself. Then pick up your saddle and stand on the scale again. Subtract your weight= weight of your saddle.


I would but we don't have a hard flat even surface at the barn. At the old barn, this would have worked because we had concrete in the barn.


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## greentree

Take your saddle home.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Well, one of my friend boarders thinks she is 500lbs. Just gauging by how big one of my former branch managers was at my old job (I initially though that he was 400lbs, but another branch manager said he's at least 700lbs), .


 The human frame cannot support 700 lbs, for more than a few steps. It is physiologically impossible. Anyone that heavy is bed ridden.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Well, one of my friend boarders thinks she is 500lbs. Just gauging by how big one of my former branch managers was at my old job (I initially though that he was 400lbs, but another branch manager said he's at least 700lbs), I would say this other rider is at least 300-350. Still, that's a lot for any horse to handle unless that horse is a 2000lb Percheron, Thoroughbread, or Clydesdale.
> 
> She uses the block and does struggle a bit to mount from what I've seen.
> 
> But I'm not going to go on about it, I will get in trouble and cause too much backlash on here.


There is no way a 700 lb person can work. Real skinny people are generally very bad at gauging weight.


How about y'all quit talking about the poor woman's weight?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Take your saddle home.


I hate stuffing it in the trunk, but yes you are right, this is the best way to do it. Im still optimistic that my saddle weighs no more than 40lbs. Fingers crossed for less than 40lbs.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> The human frame cannot support 700 lbs, for more than a few steps. It is physiologically impossible. Anyone that heavy is bed ridden.


Oh okay.


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## tinyliny

EliRose said:


> There is no way a 700 lb person can work. Real skinny people are generally very bad at gauging weight.
> 
> 
> How about y'all quit talking about the poor woman's weight?


maybe the mixup is due to a mixed up idea of how to convert kilograms to pounds.

in any case . . . it doesn't matter.


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## gottatrot

6gun Kid said:


> The human frame cannot support 700 lbs, for more than a few steps. It is physiologically impossible. Anyone that heavy is bed ridden.


Sorry, just had to chime in even though it's such a rabbit trail...but we're sitting here at work in the middle of the night and I asked my fellow ICU nurse what the heaviest person is she's seen walking around (she worked in a bariatric facility). She said she met an 800 lb man who could walk down the halls and he held down a job. He was about 6'5" so that does make a difference. The heaviest person I've seen walking was 700 lbs but she was a woman who was only about 5'5" so that was probably just as big of a feat. We know for a fact the weights because we weigh them ourselves on our 1,000 lb capacity beds. I've seen 400 and 500 lb people that were astonishingly mobile. Someone like Shaquille O Neal could weigh almost 400 lbs with an average build.

OK, back to horses.
Hoofpic, you might already know this but a heavy western saddle often spreads out the weight better than a lighter english saddle and makes it easier to carry the rider's weight.


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## Rainaisabelle

Maybe we just shouldn't comment on weights.. It's extremely rude and I guarantee people wouldn't like it being pointed out. People who are overweight know it no need to point it out.


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## 6gun Kid

gottatrot said:


> Sorry, just had to chime in even though it's such a rabbit trail...but we're sitting here at work in the middle of the night and I asked my fellow ICU nurse what the heaviest person is she's seen walking around (she worked in a bariatric facility). She said she met an 800 lb man who could walk down the halls and he held down a job. He was about 6'5" so that does make a difference. The heaviest person I've seen walking was 700 lbs but she was a woman who was only about 5'5" so that was probably just as big of a feat. We know for a fact the weights because we weigh them ourselves on our 1,000 lb capacity beds. I've seen 400 and 500 lb people that were astonishingly mobile. Someone like Shaquille O Neal could weigh almost 400 lbs with an average build.
> 
> OK, back to horses.
> Hoofpic, you might already know this but a heavy western saddle often spreads out the weight better than a lighter english saddle and makes it easier to carry the rider's weight.


 I was speaking in general terms, I have seen several 4 an 500 lbers in dialysis, that are very active. I have a heard several Doctor telling those people what I just said, that is why I said it.



tinyliny said:


> maybe the mixup is due to a mixed up idea of how to convert kilograms to pounds.
> 
> in any case . . . it doesn't matter.


It does matter! Ridiculous statements, ignorance, and absurdities need to be called out! He wants to learn, well sometimes learning isn't sweetness and light. You stepping in every time someone calls him on something is not helping him!


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## PoptartShop

I agree, I don't think anyone's weight is anyone else's concern but their own. 700lbs is a bit of an exaggeration, but that's just my two cents. 

As for weighing the saddle, stuff it in your trunk somehow and bring it home if you have a scale. Or, just add the weight to yours and calculate like suggested above. Easy peasy!

Anyway, how's Fly?


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## jaydee

*MODERATING*
Any further comments about weight will be removed
Move on


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Sorry, just had to chime in even though it's such a rabbit trail...but we're sitting here at work in the middle of the night and I asked my fellow ICU nurse what the heaviest person is she's seen walking around (she worked in a bariatric facility). She said she met an 800 lb man who could walk down the halls and he held down a job. He was about 6'5" so that does make a difference. The heaviest person I've seen walking was 700 lbs but she was a woman who was only about 5'5" so that was probably just as big of a feat. We know for a fact the weights because we weigh them ourselves on our 1,000 lb capacity beds. I've seen 400 and 500 lb people that were astonishingly mobile. Someone like Shaquille O Neal could weigh almost 400 lbs with an average build.


Not to go on about it, but when you mentioned that height at 6.5, I should mention that my former branch manager is 6'7. Even taller than me. He is diabetic as well and has a real hard time getting around, getting through doors, up stairs, in and out of the car etc.



> OK, back to horses.
> Hoofpic, you might already know this but a heavy western saddle often spreads out the weight better than a lighter english saddle and makes it easier to carry the rider's weight.


Actually I had no idea about this at all. Is it because english saddles have less padding and are softer, so they don't soften the weight as much as westerns do?


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Not to go on about it, but when you mentioned that height at 6.5, I should mention that my former branch manager is 6'7. Even taller than me. He is diabetic as well and has a real hard time getting around, getting through doors, up stairs, in and out of the car etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I had no idea about this at all. Is it because english saddles have less padding and are softer, so they don't soften the weight as much as westerns do?


No, it's weight distribution per square inch of contact area.
English saddles actually have more padding next to the horse than western saddles & some can be used without a pad though most people use at least a thin pad.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> No, it's weight distribution per square inch of contact area.
> English saddles actually have more padding next to the horse than western saddles & some can be used without a pad though most people use at least a thin pad.


Okay thanks. So overall, which is less strain on a horses back, english or western? I guess it depends on the specific saddle.


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## Hoofpic

I don't know if I have mentioned this yet, but I got Fly 100% completely okay with flyspray being sprayed onto her from the bottle. Fly is now okay with flyspray lol.

I'm so relieved and I did it all myself. Took about a good solid 4-5 days of repeated applying. Now, she doesn't care and the sound from the bottle doesn't bother her.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Okay thanks. So overall, which is less strain on a horses back, english or western? I guess it depends on the specific saddle.


Why is this relevant? If your saddle is fitted it wouldn't matter.


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## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> Okay thanks. So overall, which is less strain on a horses back, english or western? I guess it depends on the specific saddle.


I guess how I think of it is that a western saddle is more forgiving of small balance or fitting problems. So if you had two saddles that fit a horse very well, one western and one english, but there was a small issue like it put your weight a bit forward or back, the surface area of a western saddle would mean it affected the horse less. For instance, on long rides over 15 miles, you can find that an apparently well fitting saddle might give the horse sore muscles over the loin or behind the shoulders. This is more likely to affect the horse if the saddle has a smaller "footprint" on the horse's back. A couple of my friends who are over 200 lbs and also ride long distances switched back to endurance saddles that are built on western trees because their horses would get sore back muscles at times in their english saddles. 

As long as a saddle isn't unusually heavy, I'd be happier about it having a good fit along with a large surface area to spread your weight over the horse's back versus going for a smaller, lighter saddle that was less forgiving.


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## Hoofpic

Okay thanks, I'm just asking.


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## jaydee

I think its perfectly reasonable to ask - its the only way to learn
If you (in the general sense) assume that whatever saddle you buy is going to be the right fit for the horse and for you an average 'english' saddle weighs roughly 17lbs, an average western saddle is more likely to weigh closer to 30lbs but an endurance saddle will be closer to the English saddle in weight so if a rider's weight is already on the upper limit of what the horse can comfortable carry then a good fitting lighter saddle will be less of a burden for it
A Buyer's Guide To Trail Saddles | EQUUS Magazine


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> I guess how I think of it is that a western saddle is more forgiving of small balance or fitting problems. So if you had two saddles that fit a horse very well, one western and one english, but there was a small issue like it put your weight a bit forward or back, the surface area of a western saddle would mean it affected the horse less. For instance, on long rides over 15 miles, you can find that an apparently well fitting saddle might give the horse sore muscles over the loin or behind the shoulders. This is more likely to affect the horse if the saddle has a smaller "footprint" on the horse's back. A couple of my friends who are over 200 lbs and also ride long distances switched back to endurance saddles that are built on western trees because their horses would get sore back muscles at times in their english saddles.
> 
> As long as a saddle isn't unusually heavy, I'd be happier about it having a good fit along with a large surface area to spread your weight over the horse's back versus going for a smaller, lighter saddle that was less forgiving.


Thanks, totally didn't know that. 

I find Western saddles very comfy (all dependent on the specific saddle of course), they're just a PITA to put on, store away due to the bulk and weight lol.

I agree, I would settle for a bulkier and heavier Western saddle over a super light weight English, as long as the Western fits the horse like a glove.

That reminds me, it's been a good 3 months (at least) since I got my saddle and got it fitted on Fly. I think I'm well overdue for checking Fly's frame right now to make sure that no new tight points have been created (afterall, she has put on a good amount of muscle over the past few months). Aside from tracing her withers, I really have no idea to check


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I think its perfectly reasonable to ask - its the only way to learn
> If you (in the general sense) assume that whatever saddle you buy is going to be the right fit for the horse and for you an average 'english' saddle weighs roughly 17lbs, an average western saddle is more likely to weigh closer to 30lbs but an endurance saddle will be closer to the English saddle in weight so if a rider's weight is already on the upper limit of what the horse can comfortable carry then a good fitting lighter saddle will be less of a burden for it
> A Buyer's Guide To Trail Saddles | EQUUS Magazine


I know the saddle that I have right now won't last forever on Fly (since her form will change as she grows and gains muscle), but whenever I need to get a new one, I am most likely going to get an endurance saddle. I've seen a couple of them (from people having bought them) and I really like them. Are endurance saddles still considered Western?

I know they aren't cheap, but I do believe I could justify the cost of them.


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## Hoofpic

A great article I found on FB this morning.

http://www.horsechannel.com/horse-experts/horse-vet-advice/safe-weight-horse-carry.aspx

It's pretty honest. I still have friend boarders at the barn who strongly believe that all horses can only handle a max of 20% of their weight on their backs, but like the article says..."it depends on the horse."


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Endurance saddle is a broad term. It could mean this:









Which is more of an English saddle or this:










Which is more western.

Western saddles by the nature of their use were designed to be ridden in all day; the main difference in what is now called "endurance" western saddles will be less leather/reduced weight.


----------



## Hoofpic

So looking ahead to the Mane Event in Oct 21-23 in BC, they have released the list of clinicians teaching. Aside from Warwick, I don't recognize any of the other ones. Any feedback on the rest here?

I'm still very much considering attending this one (I would drive out there, about a 8-9 hour drive) for the 3 days and stay in a hotel for 2 nights. Would also need to take Friday off work. My decision all comes down to cost. If it's going to be too much, I will have to unfortunately pass on it and wait until next years show in Red Deer again.


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## Hoofpic

Here is my dilemma. I can attend the Mane Event again in October in BC, or I can save that money and put it towards next year in actually having Fly and I attend a clinic. 

If I drive out to the Mane Event in Oct, we will be looking at $90 a night for a hotel, plus at least $250 in gas, and then another $40-50 to attend the Mane Event on all 3 days. Then of course food. So I would be looking at $400+.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Here is my dilemma. I can attend the Mane Event again in October in BC, or I can save that money and put it towards next year in actually having Fly and I attend a clinic.
> 
> If I drive out to the Mane Event in Oct, we will be looking at $90 a night for a hotel, plus at least $250 in gas, and then another $40-50 to attend the Mane Event on all 3 days. Then of course food. So I would be looking at $400+.


Only you know your financial status & priorities.


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## jaydee

You've got a dressage rider, an eventing rider and a carriage driver amongst that selection - much the same sort of thing that we get at the Equine Affaire in Mass. 
I really love these things but one day is enough for my bank account (all that shopping temptation) and we choose which clinics we are most interested in and select the day based on that. For us its a 2 hour drive each way so no need for a hotel


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## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Here is my dilemma. I can attend the Mane Event again in October in BC, or I can save that money and put it towards next year in actually* having Fly and I attend a clinic. *
> 
> If I drive out to the Mane Event in Oct, we will be looking at $90 a night for a hotel, plus at least $250 in gas, and then another $40-50 to attend the Mane Event on all 3 days. Then of course food. So I would be looking at $400+.



it really depends on who you would be clinicing with. would it be a week? or three days? how many other riders would be in the clinic?
to me, a clinic is only worth actually participating in as a rider if the clinician is really good, and if the number of riders isn't too high.

while Buck is an excellent clinician, he will have like 50 riders in one arena. it's insane.


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## Hoofpic

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Endurance saddle is a broad term. It could mean this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is more of an English saddle or this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is more western.
> 
> Western saddles by the nature of their use were designed to be ridden in all day; the main difference in what is now called "endurance" western saddles will be less leather/reduced weight.


Thanks. Do you think Western Endurance saddles are as durable as regular Western ones? I do really like the look of them.

It's funny because the saddle that I use right now on Fly actually suits her really well lol. I think it's the Classic Equine Mohair cinch and the Diamond bareback pad that gives the saddle some style.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Only you know your financial status & priorities.


True. Right now I'm leaning towards not going and just catching the one in Red Deer next Spring. But you never know, I might change my mind.


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> You've got a dressage rider, an eventing rider and a carriage driver amongst that selection - much the same sort of thing that we get at the Equine Affaire in Mass.
> I really love these things but one day is enough for my bank account (all that shopping temptation) and we choose which clinics we are most interested in and select the day based on that. For us its a 2 hour drive each way so no need for a hotel


Oh, two hours each way isn't bad at all. Are you going to the one in Chillawack this year?


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> it really depends on who you would be clinicing with. would it be a week? or three days? how many other riders would be in the clinic?
> to me, a clinic is only worth actually participating in as a rider if the clinician is really good, and if the number of riders isn't too high.
> 
> while Buck is an excellent clinician, he will have like 50 riders in one arena. it's insane.


You make a good point. I need to be really careful in not being super needy to attend clinics. For one, it will and can get mighty expensive real quick. And two, like you said, the clinician running it has to be worth the price tag.

Now that I have a full spring and summer under my belt in terms of me sitting in on clinics, shows, etc, and getting my feet wet observing and becoming familiar with different trainers and horseman (Warwick Schiller, Scott Purdum, Doug Mills, Parelli, Buck, John Lyons, Patrick King, Steve Rother, Kateri Cowley, Peter Campbell, etc), THE #1 thing that I have learned this year, (and a valuable lesson at that), is that (no matter what these clinicians say), there is no right way and no wrong way. 

There is also not just one way to do things with your horse. It's what works for you and your horse. So I observe and take it in, but I no longer take it in as if everything is fact. Moving forward, I think that right there is THE single most lesson that I have learned this year.

I'm mostly interested in one day clinics. 

I like smaller groups as well. For instance, the Peter Campbell one that I audited last June had way too many riders. I think I counted 24 riders and it was a 4 day clinic @ $600/day per rider. Yikes. This guy obvously draws a lot of attention since most of the riders were from people in other provinces and some drove up from the U.S. just to see him.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. Do you think Western Endurance saddles are as durable as regular Western ones? I do really like the look of them.
> 
> It's funny because the saddle that I use right now on Fly actually suits her really well lol. I think it's the Classic Equine Mohair cinch and the Diamond bareback pad that gives the saddle some style.


My regular leather western saddle weighs 24 lbs and is considered a western endurance saddle. I used it on rides of 15 miles per ride and I have never had an issue with it soring up my horse, soring up me or falling apart, but like everything, your experiences will vary.


----------



## Hoofpic

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> My regular leather western saddle weighs 24 lbs and is considered a western endurance saddle. I used it on rides of 15 miles per ride and I have never had an issue with it soring up my horse, soring up me or falling apart, but like everything, your experiences will vary.


Thanks. If your endurance Western weighs 24lbs, then mine has to be at least 30-35lbs.


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## jaydee

No we just go to the Equine Affaire in Mass, hoofpic. 
We try to get out to some of the bigger shows that we can do in a day and then there's the country fairs and the Big E (Eastern States Exposition) also in Mass. to fill the available spaces in our calendar. We don't have a huge amount of free time so its a case of trying to fit in what we can


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> No we just go to the Equine Affaire in Mass, hoofpic.
> We try to get out to some of the bigger shows that we can do in a day and then there's the country fairs and the Big E (Eastern States Exposition) also in Mass. to fill the available spaces in our calendar. We don't have a huge amount of free time so its a case of trying to fit in what we can


Still sounds like fun. 

I'm mostly likely not going to make the trip out to the Mane Event in October. I just think for what it would cost me, I'm better off putting that towards clinics for next year. Sure I would love to go but it's going to be too expensive.


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## Prairie

How long a saddle will last depends on 2 things----how well is was made and how well the owner takes care of it. Both my Hereford western saddle and my English saddle are over 30 years old. They were well made reputable brands to begin with and I clean them after ever ride and oil/condition them twice a year. 


If the saddle truly fits the horse and rider and the rider is balanced and in synch with the horse, it makes no difference what saddle is used. I've fox hunted for hours in that old English CC saddle without soring a horse despite the speed and size of the jumps. I've also spent hours working cattle, both cutting and roping, without causing any "beauty marks" on my horses. Now we ride challenging trails for 8+ hours covering close to 50 miles up and down buttes without our horses returning to camp sore. The pad under that saddle makes a big difference too---you need one that breathes, absorbs sweat, and keeps the horse's back cool which protecting any pressure points.


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## Hoofpic

One of my friend boarders at the barn asked me this past weekend if I'm putting on conditioner on Fly's hooves because it's getting dry again. I said that I don't put conditioner on her hooves and she asked me why with a shocked face. I told her that she doesn't need it. She disagreed. But I didn't know what else to say to that, I just said that Fly doesn't need it and her hooves are perfectly healthy. Everyone at my barn swears and believes that hoof conditioner is something that every horse needs.


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## gottatrot

I used to use hoof dressings until I read articles and research showing the most of them have minimal if any positive effect, and many actually can harm the hooves. The best things you can do for hooves are proper trimming, don't let horses stand in urine or especially in manure, give the horse good nutrition including minerals, and treat any thrush or white line disease that shows up.

This article talks about some of the bad effects that can come from applying hoof dressing. I've concluded that hoof dressings help farriers convince you your hooves look nice after a trim (I've had several that put it on afterward), and that's about it.
Hoof Dressings: What Studies Show | TheHorse.com


----------



## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> I used to use hoof dressings until I read articles and research showing the most of them have minimal if any positive effect, and many actually can harm the hooves. The best things you can do for hooves are proper trimming, don't let horses stand in urine or especially in manure, give the horse good nutrition including minerals, and treat any thrush or white line disease that shows up.
> 
> This article talks about some of the bad effects that can come from applying hoof dressing. I've concluded that hoof dressings help farriers convince you your hooves look nice after a trim (I've had several that put it on afterward), and that's about it.
> Hoof Dressings: What Studies Show | TheHorse.com


And that's why I stopped using hoof conditioners (though I maybe put it on Fly's hooves a total of 5 times since I got her). I just don't think she needs them, no matter what anyone at the barn tells me that every horse needs it, it's too dry out etc.

Hoof condition comes from their diet and nutrition.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Hoof condition comes from their diet and nutrition.


It also comes from mechanical factors such as a trim.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> It also comes from mechanical factors such as a trim.


Yes of course.


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## KigerQueen

lol you dont know dry hooves untill you have horses in az. i let them stand in water at the wash rack a few times a week to prevent horrid cracking from the dryness.


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## tinyliny

$600 per day, per rider? for 5 days? that is $3,000/participant!!! that can't possibly be right. I bet it was $600/person/ the whole clinic, . . no?

my trainer charges about $600/person for a three day clinic. and that's with only 6 riders tops!


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## Greenmeadows

I just finished working my way through this journal! I wanted to say that you take really nice pictures, Hoofpic!


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## Elizzy

I agree, great photos and the herd shots are really stunning.


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## Hoofpic

Well my trainer introduced stakes to me for the first time today and I love it! She wants me to practice this on my own and I will. Fly was totally fine with long stakes/ground poles right next to her as I held them after pulling them from the ground and into the bucket. My trainer said, this is because Ive done so much ground work with Fly and its paying off.

She also introduced to me riding with one hand and trotting Fly over logs. I loved it. Definitely something worth practicing IMO (riding and steering with one hand). 

Fly does so good going over logs.

We are having our annual games day on Oct 1 and I am in it forsure. The stakes game, logs, egg and spoon etc. There will be prizes.

She wants me to start practice mounting Fly and getting off her from our right. She got me to do it today for the first time and it was awkward lol, I will admit. Its amazing how attached and use we to get one side after doing it so many times. 

How valuable do you think it is for a horse knowing and being fully comfortable with their rider getting on and off them from either side?


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## Hoofpic

KigerQueen said:


> lol you dont know dry hooves untill you have horses in az. i let them stand in water at the wash rack a few times a week to prevent horrid cracking from the dryness.


I think that's the thing. I've never been shown what a "really dry" hoof looks like. I would like to see one, so that I have a better idea on what to look for.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> $600 per day, per rider? for 5 days? that is $3,000/participant!!! that can't possibly be right. I bet it was $600/person/ the whole clinic, . . no?
> 
> my trainer charges about $600/person for a three day clinic. and that's with only 6 riders tops!


I'm serious, Peter Campbell charges here $600 per day per rider. If you join all 4 days, you get $100 off each day, making it $500 a day = $2000 over the entire clinic. Still a lot of money. And yes, the past one that I went to in May, he had 23 or 24 riders. IMO that's way too many. Do you remember the snapshots that I uploaded? It was too crowded IMO.

I think he is making another trip back up here in October, I will check his Facebook page. I would be interested in going back out if he does. Too bad I only got to see him on the first day of his clinic.


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## Hoofpic

Greenmeadows said:


> I just finished working my way through this journal! I wanted to say that you take really nice pictures, Hoofpic!





Elizzy said:


> I agree, great photos and the herd shots are really stunning.


Thanks


----------



## edf

> How valuable do you think it is for a horse knowing and being fully comfortable with their rider getting on and off them from either side?


I think it would be beneficial- perhaps there will be a time where you will have to dismount or mount and it will only be on the right side.

I mount on whatever side my horse stands still for the longest.

Dismounting- honestly, I only ever done on the left...just thinking about dismounting on the right makes me fear doing so on my less dominant side would make me slide off awkwardly.... Guess what side I will be dismount on next ride? The right. I'd rather know if i'd struggle with it in the ring before out on the trails. Same thing if for some reason my horse is bothered by it for some reason.


----------



## Hoofpic

I know I'm posting several topics (lots has been happening lately), all at once, sorry.

Today started off pretty rough. I got to the barn in prep for my lesson and my friend who I ride with a lot (yes the one who fell off that one time, she doesn't have a horse though, she just rides). Well she had a lesson right before mine (in which I was going to join her, she asked me to join her lesson), and she fell off but this time she dislocated her arm. Ouch. My lesson got a bit delayed because the trainer and a couple others, as well as her husband were in the arena just making sure she was okay and got her to rest while waiting for the ambulance. 

I wanted to see how she was, but there were already a few people around her, so I just minded my own business. But I sent a text to her husband tonight just asking how she is doing. 

Apparently what happened was the horse that she always rides spooked at something (they don't know what) and he took off in one direction and she went the other direction. This was scary because I was actually going to join her in her lesson, but I declined because it was too early for me this morning. If I was riding with her, I wonder how Fly would have reacted when she would see the other horse spook and the rider get hurt. So perhaps it was a good choice for me to not join todays lesson. I already know first hand the chain reaction between horses. When one spooks, it carries over to the other horses nearby, etc.


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## Hoofpic

edf said:


> I think it would be beneficial- perhaps there will be a time where you will have to dismount or mount and it will only be on the right side.
> 
> I mount on whatever side my horse stands still for the longest.
> 
> Dismounting- honestly, I only ever done on the left...just thinking about dismounting on the right makes me fear doing so on my less dominant side would make me slide off awkwardly.... Guess what side I will be dismount on next ride? The right. I'd rather know if i'd struggle with it in the ring before out on the trails. Same thing if for some reason my horse is bothered by it for some reason.


Thanks. I do see it being beneficial being able to get on your horse from either side. And tomorrow I will try putting her up to the block on her right side and get on from there. She stands so well for me at the block now, I dont even need to use the crop (but I still carry it with me because I now always ride with a crop).

I go off today from my right side and I will admit, it was so uncomfortable. It felt so unnatural that even before doing it, I actually had to quickly think it over in my head on what to do lol. I don't think that's a good thing. 

My trainer already knows how I feel about me getting off. I struggle getting my leg up and she said with me being so tall and Fly small, I should have no issue getting my leg up and over her hind end. I think i need to work on my flexibility in my legs. I used to be really flexible and perhaps I need to start doing leg scretches to become more flexible in my legs?


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## Dehda01

Peter Campbell is ripping people off. Buck Brannaman is $700 for 4 days... Big name earns the big cost. I have NEVER paid $600 per day... And I have ridden with Olympians and more.

Yes, it is important to educate your body how to learn how to mount from the right or less from the right... Some day you might need to (injury or tack failure perhaps) and your horse and your body should know how.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

Almost 2 years ago I came off my horse and dislocated my elbow. From the sounds of it, it was the same way your friend fell off- horse spooked, went one way, and she went the other. I felt so stupid about the whole thing because I've stayed on horses through much worse spooks, but it is what it is, lol. Anyway, I wasn't cleared to ride for about 3 months after that, and it took me another couple months to gain my full confidence back. That said, I really feel like I have become a better rider because of that whole situation. I can't really explain how, or why, I do, but after she's all healed up, and rides again, I hope that your friend feels the same way.

As far as what would've happened if you had been riding during the lesson, no one can say what would've happened for sure. If I were to predict, though, I would say that as long as you would've stayed calm, Fly would've been fine. Maybe a bit of spook, but I bet you both would've been fine.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I think it depends on the horse. 

I used to ride trails with an owner of a spooky horse. On the first ride out, the first spook the other horse had, my horse (who was not spooky at all) did a little spook in place but quickly realized there was nothing really to spook at and we moved on business as usual. 

The second spook, he just stopped and we waited for the other horse to gather his wits about him. 

Subsequent spooks he completely ignored what that other horse was doing. He figured out that that the other horse was jumping at his own shadow and nothing real so he just dismissed the signal. 

If Fly isn't typically spooky, I'd be ready for a little spook from her the first time; be prepared but not paranoid about it. Sometimes it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

What eventually ended up happening over a period of months is my horse made the other horse braver. The spooks turned into hard baulks and then into soft baulks that were easy for the other rider to push their horse through, until eventually the once spooky horse would ride nicely.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Peter Campbell is ripping people off. Buck Brannaman is $700 for 4 days... Big name earns the big cost. I have NEVER paid $600 per day... And I have ridden with Olympians and more.
> 
> Yes, it is important to educate your body how to learn how to mount from the right or less from the right... Some day you might need to (injury or tack failure perhaps) and your horse and your body should know how.


I would say the same as well. I've never understood why he charges so much. For me, when I see his pricetag and how many participants he has, all that rings in my bell is that he's only in it for the money. But he obviously draws the crowds and brings in the number seeing how all he does all year round is travelling across North America from town to town doing clinics. 

I took a peak at his schedule last night and see that he is making another trip back up here Oct 29-Nov 1, which is a Friday to a Tueday. I'm going to audit again, but hoping to go for at least the first couple days simply because last time I was only able to see him on the first day.

I'm going to get Fly used to me mounting from her right every now and then.


----------



## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> Almost 2 years ago I came off my horse and dislocated my elbow. From the sounds of it, it was the same way your friend fell off- horse spooked, went one way, and she went the other. I felt so stupid about the whole thing because I've stayed on horses through much worse spooks, but it is what it is, lol. Anyway, I wasn't cleared to ride for about 3 months after that, and it took me another couple months to gain my full confidence back. That said, I really feel like I have become a better rider because of that whole situation. I can't really explain how, or why, I do, but after she's all healed up, and rides again, I hope that your friend feels the same way.
> 
> As far as what would've happened if you had been riding during the lesson, no one can say what would've happened for sure. If I were to predict, though, I would say that as long as you would've stayed calm, Fly would've been fine. Maybe a bit of spook, but I bet you both would've been fine.


Sorry to hear that. You see, I've never broken a bone or dislocated any part in my body and it scares me. How quickly you heal from it, I guess depends on how bad your discolation is eh?

All I know is that when Fly spooks, I hold on as tight as I can. There have been a few times where she has spooked with me on her back. Not major spooks but still spooks nonetheless.


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## bsms

You might want to watch some videos of cutting horses. It is like watching a series of spooks, one after the other. The position used by cutters is probably a pretty secure position. Speaking for myself, having learned riding by reading VS Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship, I find having weight in my heels and focusing on matching my center of gravity with my horse's center of gravity - "fluid balance" in Littauer's words - helps a lot.

For lower level riding, which is the only riding I do, I think it prudent to ride on the assumption my horse will spook. The riding position taught by Littauer is also a pretty secure one.


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## Hoofpic

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I think it depends on the horse.
> 
> I used to ride trails with an owner of a spooky horse. On the first ride out, the first spook the other horse had, my horse (who was not spooky at all) did a little spook in place but quickly realized there was nothing really to spook at and we moved on business as usual.
> 
> The second spook, he just stopped and we waited for the other horse to gather his wits about him.
> 
> Subsequent spooks he completely ignored what that other horse was doing. He figured out that that the other horse was jumping at his own shadow and nothing real so he just dismissed the signal.
> 
> If Fly isn't typically spooky, I'd be ready for a little spook from her the first time; be prepared but not paranoid about it. Sometimes it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
> 
> What eventually ended up happening over a period of months is my horse made the other horse braver. The spooks turned into hard baulks and then into soft baulks that were easy for the other rider to push their horse through, until eventually the once spooky horse would ride nicely.


Fly was forsure react off other horses nearby. A few weeks ago when I was riding her past the rented RV tailer and then past the donkeys, she was all spooky and on edge because she saw the other two mares with her not wanting any part of the trailer or mini donkeys. The other two mares were nervous and Fly felt it, even though I was calm as can be. 

But the next day when I tried it again on my own without my friend boarders and their mares, she was perfectly fine as if it was nothing. 

The thing with me is that, no matter the situation and who is with us, I want Fly to react and feed off my energy. I want her to completely trust me no matter who is with us and no matter how the other horses are reacting in that moment. That might be a bit too much to ask since she is a horse and horses react off others and feed off their energy.


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## Hoofpic

Well finally got the dowels cut. Wish me luck!

Fly is NOT okay with these noodles and now that there is four on each side, it will be a big task for me to walk her and ride her through them.

I am recording it. Wish me luck!


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## Hoofpic

First time through. I saddled her up because I was going to ride her through after but I was doing this with a friend of mine and I didn't want to drag things on so I figured I would ride Fly through tomorrow. 






Now, after all was said and done, and I got her to sniff and follow the balloon, I got a bit ahead of myself and figured that I could try tying it to the tree on her saddle. I did think twice about it before actually doing it but I thought that if I tie it so that the balloon is quite a bit over her, it would be okay. Well bad idea. I definitely should NOT have done this. This was one of those "Im sorry Fly" moments where I wish I could apologize to her. After this happened, I just got her to sniff and follow the balloon around a bit more.

I felt bad. Do you think I did anything damaging to Fly in this video? It was a bad choice on my part and a huge learning experience. Glad no one got hurt. I'm very glad that the BO did NOT see this.


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## Hoofpic

Uh oh, there is some drama at the barn with some of the boarders, trainer and some riders. Im just trying my best to get along with everyone and not cause any drama or turmoil. 

Ive made pretty significant progress over the past few weeks, I now have a few good friends where we talk outside of the barn. Ive become good friends with one boarder who my trainer and her dont see eye to eye.

Im okay with friends venting to me, I just keep things to myself and things that I hear and have been told I dont talk about with anyone.


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> You might want to watch some videos of cutting horses. It is like watching a series of spooks, one after the other. The position used by cutters is probably a pretty secure position. Speaking for myself, having learned riding by reading VS Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship, I find having weight in my heels and focusing on matching my center of gravity with my horse's center of gravity - "fluid balance" in Littauer's words - helps a lot.
> 
> For lower level riding, which is the only riding I do, I think it prudent to ride on the assumption my horse will spook. The riding position taught by Littauer is also a pretty secure one.
> 
> NCHA - The Sport of Cutting Horses - YouTube


Thanks BSMS, I will check it out. I never would have thought that watching videos of cutting horses would help out.


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## Hoofpic

I did it  She went through the noodles the first time. Then I did it again because I wanted her to not stop and just go right through. Then ended things right there.


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## Hoofpic

Does anyone else have drama at their barn?

It sucks, but IMO I don't think it's something that you can avoid. Not everyone is going to get along with everyone. It was still MUCH worse at my previous barn with 30+ boarders, it was chaotic there. There was just no respect there and a reason why I left.


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## Fimargue

Hoofpic said:


> She wants me to start practice mounting Fly and getting off her from our right. She got me to do it today for the first time and it was awkward lol, I will admit. Its amazing how attached and use we to get one side after doing it so many times.
> 
> How valuable do you think it is for a horse knowing and being fully comfortable with their rider getting on and off them from either side?


I mount the horses from both sides, and I think it's important to do so for the horses back - especially if you mount from the ground often (I personally use always something to mount from nowadays - if I can help it). I remember the first time I mounted from the ground on the right side of the horse... well, let's just say it wasn't at all that graceful lol.

I would also like to say that I have read all your journal through, and I love your spirit and willingness to learn new things. Keep up the good work!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hoofpic said:


> Does anyone else have drama at their barn?
> 
> It sucks, but IMO I don't think it's something that you can avoid. Not everyone is going to get along with everyone. It was still MUCH worse at my previous barn with 30+ boarders, it was chaotic there. There was just no respect there and a reason why I left.


Any time you have a closed group of people; barn, ice rink, small school, small town, there is going to be drama. From experience (I've been in all of the above) all I can say is stay out of it as best you can. Usually if you just tell people that you don't want to get involved they will respect your wishes and find someone else to complain to leaving you fairly squeaky clean when the dust settles.


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## Hoofpic

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Any time you have a closed group of people; barn, ice rink, small school, small town, there is going to be drama. From experience (I've been in all of the above) all I can say is stay out of it as best you can. Usually if you just tell people that you don't want to get involved they will respect your wishes and find someone else to complain to leaving you fairly squeaky clean when the dust settles.


My trainer and the BO have really taken notice that I get along with everyone. There are a couple young girls there, who I will admit I'm not a fan of, but I mind my own business. I'm not rude to them, but obviously I have become really good friends over the past month or so with 3 other boarders there and 1 rider that we tend to talk all the time when we are there. We have a lot in common, we help each other out along the way and we have gotten to know each other more. There is no doubt in my mind that both the BO and trainer know who I have become really good friends with over the past couple months. We often do stuff together at the barn and plan times to meet there so we can arrange rides etc (like yesterday). 

I just mind my own business. I don't mind when friends vent to me or tell me what they think about this and that. I am a great listener. I have a friend boarder who has known the BO for 10 years (is one of the closest to the BO), and is quite vocal with her opinion (I am as well, so that is great), but her and my trainer don't get along. Just recently, she told me that in our last lesson together (about 6 weeks ago), my trainer hurt her feelings. I told her, that I was sorry to hear that, but because her and the BO are so close, why not talk to the BO about how you felt after that lesson.

Yesterday, her and I, and another friend boarder were having fun in the arena with a bunch of stuff setup (ball, bridge, noodles etc) and after we got there and were already saddled up, two of the young girl boarders got there wanting to ride. They don't pay board there because one does chores for free board and the other does chores for a half lease on one of the BO's horses. 

And they wanted to ride. So my friend went outside to get something and the BO said to her "When are you going to take all that crap down?" and said that we have one hour to be finished so the girls can ride. 

I don't agree with what the BO said, but I told my friend that maybe the BO was just having a bad day and he didn't mean to come across as rude, but she was very upset simply because her, I and the other friend boarder pay board, and the other two young girls don't. So how does kicking us out for two young girls who don't pay board at all make any sense? They need to wait until we are done. Besides, we were only inside the arena for maybe 20mins before they even arrived at the barn. If it was us showing up after, we would have waited until they were done.

Personally, one of the two young girls is fine, I have no problem with her. Sure we don't chat up a storm like I do with other boarders there when we see each other, but I will still say hi and bye to her and ask how she is doing. But the other, I'm not a fan of. Nothing against her, but her and I can't relate. But then again, I'm 35 and she is 17, and there is a reason why I've always preferred to be friends with people older than me. Teenage girls usually isn't my cup of tea in terms of making friends and getting to know (I'm sure I can't be faulted here). We don't need to have friendships with everyone right? I just keep it to myself with her. I'm not rude or disrespectful to anyone at the barn and I think that's the most important. But over the past couple months, it's been made clear on who I can relate to the most on a personable and friendship level (which is completely normal).


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Honestly let it go and move on.


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## EliRose

I'd be annoyed too if boarders were leaving their stuff all over a shared riding space. Rules are generally to put personal stuff away immediately after you finish riding. And those girls probably had only a short period they could be a the barn.

And just because they don't pay money doesn't mean they don't pay board! Doing barn work in lieu of cash is still paying.


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## anndankev

Bartering IS a way of paying board. It is an exchange of service - work for board. It certainly is not free.

I don't want to comment on the drama you are having there. Just asking that you not consider the girls who work there as second-class boarders while you are forming your opinions..


----------



## Hoofpic

Notice how Fly's mane (her tail as well, just can't see it here), is alot better looking? My friend boarder told me about the mane and tail brush that she uses on her mare and she picked one up for me about a month ago. It's the greatest thing ever and now I can brush and fully detangle Fly's tail (and her tail is thick as a bush), in just a few minutes. It's amazing. Her mane is so easy to brush now. 
I used to spend 20-30minutes just on Fly's tail, it was very time consuming.

I will get a close up this afternoon, heading to the barn shortly for a lesson. But when her mane is all brushed out and soft, she looks amazing.


----------



## Hoofpic

anndankev said:


> Bartering IS a way of paying board. It is an exchange of service - work for board. It certainly is not free.
> 
> I don't want to comment on the drama you are having there. Just asking that you not consider the girls who work there as second-class boarders while you are forming your opinions..


I don't see the two girls (who do chores in exchange for board) as second class boarders. My friend does though because she sees it as the ones paying board are ones putting money in the BO's pocket. But same can be said for the girls who do chores for board. They help maintain the barn for us. 

When my friend boarder vented to me, I listened but I didn't say anything.


----------



## Hoofpic

Fimargue said:


> I mount the horses from both sides, and I think it's important to do so for the horses back - especially if you mount from the ground often (I personally use always something to mount from nowadays - if I can help it). I remember the first time I mounted from the ground on the right side of the horse... well, let's just say it wasn't at all that graceful lol.
> 
> I would also like to say that I have read all your journal through, and I love your spirit and willingness to learn new things. Keep up the good work!


Thanks. I'm going to work on getting on from Fly's right side for sure, but only from the block. Now that I've only been using the block since the past month or so, I much prefer the block. It's just so much easier. 

And the 3 step block (though still too high for me), I've just gotten used to it and haven't thought about getting a 2 step block anymore.


----------



## Hoofpic

I have a dumb question. 

When getting off a horse, is there any way to get off without having to put your weight on their withers with your hands? Because lately I've been noticing that Fly's head will spring up just as I lean forward to put my hands on her withers and swing my leg around.

I thought maybe she's soar there, but I checked by massaging and feeling them to see if I got any kind of reaction from her and I didn't.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I've never dismounted a horse by putting my hands on their withers ? I take both feet out of stirrups, hold the reins and get off one side


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I've never dismounted a horse by putting my hands on their withers ? I take both feet out of stirrups, hold the reins and get off one side


Oh but you lean your weight towards something as you lean forward.


----------



## Greenmeadows

Maybe you could just practice leaning forward, without dismounting? I like to practice moving around a lot in the saddle while my horse stands still to allow her to be used to me doing stuff up there, like fixing a stirrup, messing with a gate latch, or something like that.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I usually just lean my upper body forward and swing my leg over and I'm off ? If I feel unsteady I might put my hand on the of my saddle


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

I dismount the same way Raina does.

You take both of your feet out of the stirrups, lean forward, and then swing your leg over.

I'll see if I can find a video for you.


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

Go to around the 2:10 mark. That will show you what we're talking about.


----------



## Hoofpic

Greenmeadows said:


> Maybe you could just practice leaning forward, without dismounting? I like to practice moving around a lot in the saddle while my horse stands still to allow her to be used to me doing stuff up there, like fixing a stirrup, messing with a gate latch, or something like that.


I have been doing this (trainer suggested it about 2 months ago) with Fly on my own and she has gotten a lot more used to me moving around while on her, touching her tail, between her ears, etc. I would eventually like to be able reach down to my stirrups (my trainer really wants me to start doing this, she says its a good skill to have for any rider).


----------



## Hoofpic

HTML:







3rdTimestheCharm said:


> How To Mount and Dismount a Horse (3 different ways) - YouTube
> 
> Go to around the 2:10 mark. That will show you what we're talking about.


Great video, thank you! She makes it look so easy. I wish I had that coordination lol. I do have to work on my flexibility in my legs.


----------



## Elizzy

Yoga is great for both strength and flexibility. I have been doing ashtanga for past couple of years and it has really helped my position in the saddle as well as making mounting from ground when I need to quite a bit easier.


----------



## Hoofpic

Elizzy said:


> Yoga is great for both strength and flexibility. I have been doing ashtanga for past couple of years and it has really helped my position in the saddle as well as making mounting from ground when I need to quite a bit easier.


I have considered yoga, and I know this may sound like I'm making an excuse, but it's expensive here. I don't know why places here charge so much for yoga. 

I don't know if i have mentioned this, but this Saturday I am going on a trail ride up in the prairies (about 2 hour drive) with two of my friend boarders at the barn. $50 for 2 hour ride. It will be so fun! I've never ridden on a true real trail before, but before I go on trails with Fly, I better experience what it's like on another horse first. Even though mind you, these horses are school horses so they've done it a million times and I'm sure are so calm and cool on the trails.

I will get some pictures forsure. Hoping for some gorgeous views.










And so far, one of my friend boarders is going to come with me to audit Peter Campbell's clinic in late October-Nov. I think she will really benefit from it. The other one is thinking about it.


----------



## Hoofpic

I want to ask some advice on something but I'm a little scared to. I feel that I should be asking about it though.


----------



## Hoofpic

Okay I'm going to ask away...I really need advice on this. I just hope I don't get the wrong reactions from here.


----------



## Hoofpic

Here we go. Fingers crossed, I don't cause a circus on here.

So you guys know how I have 3 really good friends at the barn now (4th one as well. but she just comes to ride). We talk all the time, we have hung out, outside of the barn, gone to clinics, gone to the horse store, done favours for each other, etc. 

Do you guys remember awhile back me mentioning how they have a different mindset than I do when it comes to horsemanship? *By no means am I saying that I'm an expert and they don't know anything. I know that I'm still very much a beginner and still in full on learning mode.*

But rather what I'm saying is that we have different opinions on certain things etc. For instance, they always play age as a factor when talking about what their (or a) horse can and cannot do, what their (or a) horse is comfortable and uncomfortable with etc. From what I've noticed is that they will not do a lot of stuff, because their horse is not okay with it and they play age as a factor.

Also none of them believe in nipping a horse in the bud, ever. They will never lay a hand on a horse because they see it as more harmful than anything. They believe that smacking a horse or nipping them in the bud is damaging to them. And I will admit, they do attach human emotions to their horse(s) (well 2 of the 3 do this).

I USED to think this way but right now, as it stands today, I am in a completely different mindset than I was months ago. I no longer attach human emotions to Fly (or any horse for that matter), I no longer let her get away with stuff, I no longer have her age as a factor, I no longer refrain from doing certain things with Fly because of me believing that she is not okay with it, that I need to avoid it, I no longer hold grudges against her, I no longer worry about this and that, I no longer anticipate things, I no longer hold onto corrections that just happened, I no longer study corrections and trying to perfect it. 

I'm just not the same person that I was months ago. 

Trust me, my friends will still ALWAYS bring up age and Fly's age with me all the time, and I've trained my brain to completely ignore it that I've gotten so accustomed to not letting it get to me, because I know 100% age is not a factor for Fly and I. Yes I know she is still green, but I see her as a trained and fully confident and capable mare who will do what I ask of her. I used to make a lot of excuses for myself and her, but I no longer do. I just do it.

Remember months ago how I said that when I handle the lesson mare, and when I handle Fly, that I see Fly differently? Therefore, I wasn't near as relaxed when handling Fly as I did the lesson mare because I didn't have as much confidence in Fly as I did the lesson mare, my body language was much different when with Fly than with the lesson mare, and I saw Fly as a very young and untrained horse. Well I'm no longer in that mindset. All of that is out the window. I can confidently say that when I handle Fly today, it feels no different than with the lesson mare. 

There are 4 things that have completely changed my mindset. Books/Videos, all you guys, clinics and my trainer (even BO too). 

Now my friends and I like to do stuff together with our horses at the barn. I like to help them out with whatever when they ask for help and I learn stuff from them as well. Just over the past few weeks, one of them has taught me how to properly clean water troughs. She also taught me how to spot Flybot eggs and how to get rid of them using the Flybot knife. It's great, I'm very thankful for all of this.

And often there are times where she wants me to hold her mare (while she has to step outside for a sec to get something or whatever), because her mare is refusing to be tied. So I will do it to help her out. Or hold her mare as she is mounting her because her mare will not stand for her at the block.

Like I said before, there are two things that Fly has taught me since I got her. 1) Patience and 2) Being more observant. So like I said, every second that I am at the barn, I am always observing what's going on around me. So I can be picking Fly's feet and I will still take notice of the person riding in the arena. I'm not being nosey, Fly has taught me this.

There's some things that I notice that I would love to help my friends on or give them advice on how I did it, but I know that I shouldn't. It's their horse and their choice in how they want to do things right?

But we do have very different opinions on things in horsemanship. Just last week I was out in one field with one of my friends cleaning the water trough. One of the horses came right up to me, was in my space and starting pushing into my hip with his head. It wasn't a nuzzle, it was a very disrespectful, in your face, I want treats push. So I immediately smacked him and it was a really hard firm smack. My friend asked why I smacked him and I told her, but she said that he was just nuzzling and that she lets horses nuzzle her. Well, a soft nuzzle is fine with me as long as they are respecting my space. But this horse clearly wasn't. I didn't go on about it, but I just told her this. She does not believe in laying a hand on any horse ever. Afterwards, this horse was following me around the field and back to the gate, so that confirmed with me that I did the right thing. I don't like hitting other peoples horses (this horse is the BO's, he is a lesson horse), but you have to do what you need to do if required right? My trainer would have done the same thing and if she saw it, she wouldn't have asked me why I smacked him. She would have said that I did the right thing. 

So, you see where I'm getting at here? 

I love hanging out with my barn friends, but it can be tough at times when you see things happen that you know is wrong and you know how to do it correctly. You want to help them out, but also you know that it's their horse.


----------



## egrogan

I think you have two choices here:
1. Hang out with your friends and stay focused on _your _horse, enjoying seeing the fruits of your methods paying off with Fly and letting them do their own thing without interfering.

2. If you can't let go of the desire to "educate" them about your way of doing things with horses, I really think you'll have to find a new group of horse friends that align with your methods. You have posted over and over again about your needling desire to tell people they have to do things your way, and if you can't let that go and still enjoy your time with them, you are going to expend way too much mental energy plotting to change them. It's like being in a relationship with someone who has 60% of the things you really want in a partner and 40% of things you don't- you simply can not change that 40% of a person. You either accept them for who they are, or you find someone closer to the 100% of things you want. Neither is wrong, it's just a matter of what you personally need to be happy.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I think you have two choices here:
> 1. Hang out with your friends and stay focused on _your _horse, enjoying seeing the fruits of your methods paying off with Fly and letting them do their own thing without interfering.
> 
> 2. If you can't let go of the desire to "educate" them about your way of doing things with horses, I really think you'll have to find a new group of horse friends that align with your methods. You have posted over and over again about your needling desire to tell people they have to do things your way, and if you can't let that go and still enjoy your time with them, you are going to expend way too much mental energy plotting to change them. It's like being in a relationship with someone who has 60% of the things you really want in a partner and 40% of things you don't- you simply can not change that 40% of a person. You either accept them for who they are, or you find someone closer to the 100% of things you want. Neither is wrong, it's just a matter of what you personally need to be happy.


I wouldn't say that I have a desire to tell people how to do things, I just like to share on how I was taught that's all. I like to help others and see them succeed. Even if this wasn't horse related, I still have that mentality of wanting to help out other's, that's just who I am. If I see something done wrong and I know the right way doing it, I feel guilty for not mentioning it, that's just how I was taught from my parents. This goes for anything in life. Don't think it's just a horsey thing because it's not.

I can tune out stuff that I get told or hear, but I will admit it's just hard at times because (for instance), on Sunday and Monday when we did the noodles and balloons, all I kept hearing was "is Fly going to be okay with the noodles?"..."How about the balloons?..."I hope [my horse's name] is going to be okay with it"...."oh I don't know how she will react"...."[Persons name], is [Your horse's name] going to be okay with the balloons, noodles etc?"

While throughout this entire time, I just had one thought on my mind and that was "Fly is okay with the noodles" because I am fully confident in her and I know she trusts me. The day that I brought the hellium balloons to the barn, I never questioned or even second guessed whether Fly would be okay with it. I just kept telling myself that she is, because that is my completely rebuilt mindset that I have today.

My trainer knows about this new state of mind that I'm in and I can tell that she's very happy about it. If there is one thing that I've noticed over the months, it's that my mindset has fallen into the lap of my trainer's, just in terms of how she uses her body language, how she amps it up, not just on the ground but in the saddle as well and just, she is a leader when with horses.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> I'd be annoyed too if boarders were leaving their stuff all over a shared riding space. Rules are generally to put personal stuff away immediately after you finish riding. And those girls probably had only a short period they could be a the barn.
> 
> And just because they don't pay money doesn't mean they don't pay board! Doing barn work in lieu of cash is still paying.


Sorry I need to vent and say something. One of my biggest pet peeves people who ride and dont clean up after their horses. They can say all they want that they didnt have time, but the fact is
..if you dont have time, then you dont ride.
Period. 

Too many times I clean up after these girls.

And i know exactly who these people are. One is one lady in her 50's and has been the longesy standing boarder. She should be ashamed of herself.


----------



## HeroAndGunner

Hoofpic said:


> Here we go. Fingers crossed, I don't cause a circus on here.
> 
> So you guys know how I have 3 really good friends at the barn now (4th one as well. but she just comes to ride). We talk all the time, we have hung out, outside of the barn, gone to clinics, gone to the horse store, done favours for each other, etc.
> 
> Do you guys remember awhile back me mentioning how they have a different mindset than I do when it comes to horsemanship? *By no means am I saying that I'm an expert and they don't know anything. I know that I'm still very much a beginner and still in full on learning mode.*
> 
> But rather what I'm saying is that we have different opinions on certain things etc. For instance, they always play age as a factor when talking about what their (or a) horse can and cannot do, what their (or a) horse is comfortable and uncomfortable with etc. From what I've noticed is that they will not do a lot of stuff, because their horse is not okay with it and they play age as a factor.
> 
> Also none of them believe in nipping a horse in the bud, ever. They will never lay a hand on a horse because they see it as more harmful than anything. They believe that smacking a horse or nipping them in the bud is damaging to them. And I will admit, they do attach human emotions to their horse(s) (well 2 of the 3 do this).
> 
> I USED to think this way but right now, as it stands today, I am in a completely different mindset than I was months ago. I no longer attach human emotions to Fly (or any horse for that matter), I no longer let her get away with stuff, I no longer have her age as a factor, I no longer refrain from doing certain things with Fly because of me believing that she is not okay with it, that I need to avoid it, I no longer hold grudges against her, I no longer worry about this and that, I no longer anticipate things, I no longer hold onto corrections that just happened, I no longer study corrections and trying to perfect it.
> 
> I'm just not the same person that I was months ago.
> 
> Trust me, my friends will still ALWAYS bring up age and Fly's age with me all the time, and I've trained my brain to completely ignore it that I've gotten so accustomed to not letting it get to me, because I know 100% age is not a factor for Fly and I. Yes I know she is still green, but I see her as a trained and fully confident and capable mare who will do what I ask of her. I used to make a lot of excuses for myself and her, but I no longer do. I just do it.
> 
> Remember months ago how I said that when I handle the lesson mare, and when I handle Fly, that I see Fly differently? Therefore, I wasn't near as relaxed when handling Fly as I did the lesson mare because I didn't have as much confidence in Fly as I did the lesson mare, my body language was much different when with Fly than with the lesson mare, and I saw Fly as a very young and untrained horse. Well I'm no longer in that mindset. All of that is out the window. I can confidently say that when I handle Fly today, it feels no different than with the lesson mare.
> 
> There are 4 things that have completely changed my mindset. Books/Videos, all you guys, clinics and my trainer (even BO too).
> 
> Now my friends and I like to do stuff together with our horses at the barn. I like to help them out with whatever when they ask for help and I learn stuff from them as well. Just over the past few weeks, one of them has taught me how to properly clean water troughs. She also taught me how to spot Flybot eggs and how to get rid of them using the Flybot knife. It's great, I'm very thankful for all of this.
> 
> And often there are times where she wants me to hold her mare (while she has to step outside for a sec to get something or whatever), because her mare is refusing to be tied. So I will do it to help her out. Or hold her mare as she is mounting her because her mare will not stand for her at the block.
> 
> Like I said before, there are two things that Fly has taught me since I got her. 1) Patience and 2) Being more observant. So like I said, every second that I am at the barn, I am always observing what's going on around me. So I can be picking Fly's feet and I will still take notice of the person riding in the arena. I'm not being nosey, Fly has taught me this.
> 
> There's some things that I notice that I would love to help my friends on or give them advice on how I did it, but I know that I shouldn't. It's their horse and their choice in how they want to do things right?
> 
> But we do have very different opinions on things in horsemanship. Just last week I was out in one field with one of my friends cleaning the water trough. One of the horses came right up to me, was in my space and starting pushing into my hip with his head. It wasn't a nuzzle, it was a very disrespectful, in your face, I want treats push. So I immediately smacked him and it was a really hard firm smack. My friend asked why I smacked him and I told her, but she said that he was just nuzzling and that she lets horses nuzzle her. Well, a soft nuzzle is fine with me as long as they are respecting my space. But this horse clearly wasn't. I didn't go on about it, but I just told her this. She does not believe in laying a hand on any horse ever. Afterwards, this horse was following me around the field and back to the gate, so that confirmed with me that I did the right thing. I don't like hitting other peoples horses (this horse is the BO's, he is a lesson horse), but you have to do what you need to do if required right? My trainer would have done the same thing and if she saw it, she wouldn't have asked me why I smacked him. She would have said that I did the right thing.
> 
> So, you see where I'm getting at here?
> 
> I love hanging out with my barn friends, but it can be tough at times when you see things happen that you know is wrong and you know how to do it correctly. You want to help them out, but also you know that it's their horse.


In the horse world there are a lot of different ways to handle situations. Some might be right, some might be wrong but there is a place and time to give your friend's advice. If they are not asking for advice I personally will not say anything. They have the barn owner and trainer for that. Just enjoy being around the horses and your friends but still do you. Then if they ask why you did something just explain like you did previously.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> EliRose said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be annoyed too if boarders were leaving their stuff all over a shared riding space. Rules are generally to put personal stuff away immediately after you finish riding. And those girls probably had only a short period they could be a the barn.
> 
> And just because they don't pay money doesn't mean they don't pay board! Doing barn work in lieu of cash is still paying.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I need to vent and say something. One of my biggest pet peeves people who ride and dont clean up after their horses. They can say all they want that they didnt have time, but the fact is
> ..if you dont have time, then you dont ride.
> Period.
> 
> Too many times I clean up after these girls.
> 
> And i know exactly who these people are. One is one lady in her 50's and has been the longesy standing boarder. She should be ashamed of herself.
Click to expand...

Just because someone doesn't have a multitude of hours to ride doesn't mean they shouldn't.


----------



## Hoofpic

HeroAndGunner said:


> In the horse world there are a lot of different ways to handle situations. Some might be right, some might be wrong but there is a place and time to give your friend's advice. If they are not asking for advice I personally will not say anything. They have the barn owner and trainer for that. Just enjoy being around the horses and your friends but still do you. Then if they ask why you did something just explain like you did previously.


Okay thank you, I will do that. I was just worried that by being around them and hearing them say this and that and knowing they have the mentality that I "use to" have, that I would risk dangering myself in resorting back to my old mindset.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Just because someone doesn't have a multitude of hours to ride doesn't mean they shouldn't.


So that means that the next person using the arena has to take their time to clean up their mess? Sorry, but cleaning up after your horse is a sign of respect for the others using the arena. I always clean up after Fly and I'm doing it for others as well all the time because often I will use the arena and it will be filthy. 

It's no different than setting up jump stands or whatever and not taking them down afterwards. This was a huge problem at my old barn. I often had to spend 10-15mins just putting away other peoples stuff.


----------



## Hoofpic

So just starting this past Monday, Fly has started pinning her ears (when tied) at random people at the barn (other boarders) as they walk by. She has never done this before. Both times, I wasn't close enough to her to correct her and by the time I could get close enough, it would have been too late.
How would you correct her? Smack her on the neck real hard and say QUIT?!

Today, she got trimmed and she pinned her ears back at the farrier and the farrier taught her a real hard lesson by smacking her really hard on her muzzle. It was so instant and so fast that I was caught off guard as well. It totally caught Fly by surprise and I'm really hoping she learned her lesson. Our barn farrier will not put up with any of that. 

I'm not sure what's up with Fly but I'm really hoping the next time that I'm out, that if she tries it again when someone walks by, that I am close enough to her this time to give her a really hard whack on her neck. Maybe I should carry my short dressage whip in my hand just in case? (longer reach).
I still think that nipping a horse in the bud with a short whip is a million times more effective and louder in terms of body language than using the palm of your hand to whack their neck. 

Their necks are so thick and strong that a whack with your hand doesn't even phase them. But a short whip can and will. Even if you whack the ground with the whip in a real hard, fast and furious downward motion, the sound of the whip backlash will surely be more effective than a smack on their neck.

I'm almost wondering if Fly is getting moody because she has been saddled and worked a lot over the past 4 days? I rode her in a lesson on Saturday, did some obstacles on the ground on Sunday, did obstacles but from the saddle on Monday, then yesterday had another riding lesson. I know that still doesn't excuse her for pinning her ears at people who walk by, but something has obviously put her in this mood the past couple days. 

The good news is that, she has not once pinned her ears at me.


----------



## EliRose

I wouldn't be surprised if she's in a really intense heat.


----------



## tinyliny

if it passes in 5 days, she's probably in heat.

be careful where you apply a super hard smack. not so much where on her body, but rather where SHE is when she is smacked hard and fast. if it severely startles her, and someone is on the other side of her, too close, they may end up being injured if she explodes.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because someone doesn't have a multitude of hours to ride doesn't mean they shouldn't.
> 
> 
> 
> So that means that the next person using the arena has to take their time to clean up their mess? Sorry, but cleaning up after your horse is a sign of respect for the others using the arena. I always clean up after Fly and I'm doing it for others as well all the time because often I will use the arena and it will be filthy.
> 
> It's no different than setting up jump stands or whatever and not taking them down afterwards. This was a huge problem at my old barn. I often had to spend 10-15mins just putting away other peoples stuff.
Click to expand...


No it doesn't but it doesn't give you the right to criticise people.The adult thing to do is go and speak to them and the BO.


----------



## natisha

Rainaisabelle said:


> No it doesn't but it doesn't give you the right to criticise people.The adult thing to do is go and speak to them and the BO.


Or signage.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> So just starting this past Monday, Fly has started pinning her ears (when tied) at random people at the barn (other boarders) as they walk by. She has never done this before. Both times, I wasn't close enough to her to correct her and by the time I could get close enough, it would have been too late.
> How would you correct her? Smack her on the neck real hard and say QUIT?!
> 
> Today, she got trimmed and she pinned her ears back at the farrier and the farrier taught her a real hard lesson by smacking her really hard on her muzzle. It was so instant and so fast that I was caught off guard as well. It totally caught Fly by surprise and I'm really hoping she learned her lesson. Our barn farrier will not put up with any of that.
> 
> I'm not sure what's up with Fly but I'm really hoping the next time that I'm out, that if she tries it again when someone walks by, that I am close enough to her this time to give her a really hard whack on her neck. Maybe I should carry my short dressage whip in my hand just in case? (longer reach).
> I still think that nipping a horse in the bud with a short whip is a million times more effective and louder in terms of body language than using the palm of your hand to whack their neck.
> 
> Their necks are so thick and strong that a whack with your hand doesn't even phase them. But a short whip can and will. Even if you whack the ground with the whip in a real hard, fast and furious downward motion, the sound of the whip backlash will surely be more effective than a smack on their neck.
> 
> I'm almost wondering if Fly is getting moody because she has been saddled and worked a lot over the past 4 days? I rode her in a lesson on Saturday, did some obstacles on the ground on Sunday, did obstacles but from the saddle on Monday, then yesterday had another riding lesson. I know that still doesn't excuse her for pinning her ears at people who walk by, but something has obviously put her in this mood the past couple days.
> 
> The good news is that, she has not once pinned her ears at me.


I'm one who doesn't let a horse get away with much but to me a hard muzzle slap seems excessive for a facial expression unless other signs of aggression were also present.


----------



## EliRose

natisha said:


> I'm one who doesn't let a horse get away with much but to me a hard muzzle slap seems excessive for a facial expression unless other signs of aggression were also present.


For a generally good-natured horse, a strong tone is generally enough to make them quit.


----------



## Golden Horse

Dehda01 said:


> Peter Campbell is ripping people off. Buck Brannaman is $700 for 4 days... Big name earns the big cost. I have NEVER paid $600 per day... And I have ridden with Olympians and more.


To be fair Peter offers several clinics at once, if that makes sense. You can do one clinic for $600 for the 3 days, say colt starting, but then if you want to do horsemanship it is another $600, so you don't HAVE to pay $600 a day, but if you want to do it all you would be. Of course you would not be riding your colt in horsemanship as well as colt starting, so aimed at the multiple horse owner I guess

Oct 29-Nov 1 Cochrane, AB - Peter CampbellPeter Campbell


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## Prairie

Whenever a horse's behavior suddenly changes and she does something that is not normal for her, start looking for why she is off---it may be pain, someone has been messing with her, reproduction issues for mares, equipment that no longer fits due to changes in condition, the handler missing other subtle signals of what she's trying to say, or any number of other causes. Hitting a horse is seldom the correct response just because of pinned ears----that's the only way she has to tell you that something is not right. Listen to the horse, and don't jump to conclusions that she's being snarky. Fly's an easy going horse and is trying to tell you something is wrong---Now figure out what she's saying!


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> No it doesn't but it doesn't give you the right to criticise people.The adult thing to do is go and speak to them and the BO.


I'm not criticizing, I'm just expressing my opinion.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I'm one who doesn't let a horse get away with much but to me a hard muzzle slap seems excessive for a facial expression unless other signs of aggression were also present.


Well my farrier said "it was the rudest thing ever" and of all her years trimming, she has never had a horse pin their ears at her like that. I apologized on Fly's behalf and told her that she normally doesn't do that and that she is a good mare.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> To be fair Peter offers several clinics at once, if that makes sense. You can do one clinic for $600 for the 3 days, say colt starting, but then if you want to do horsemanship it is another $600, so you don't HAVE to pay $600 a day, but if you want to do it all you would be. Of course you would not be riding your colt in horsemanship as well as colt starting, so aimed at the multiple horse owner I guess
> 
> Oct 29-Nov 1 Cochrane, AB - Peter CampbellPeter Campbell


Peter's clinic in May helped me out a lot. Like I was told prior to attending, he is not the most personable person, he has a dry sense of humor (like me), he looks serious all the time and he can be intimidating to a lot of people because of the rough vibe that he gives off.

But when it comes to horsemanship, he is a simple X and O's horseman. He's not fancy, he doesn't crack jokes and wow the crowd like Pat Parelli does, and he won't draw huge crowds. But it's his simple, no BS, body language that really stands out. The man knows his stuff. He is not afraid to say stuff that may or may not offend you and that is why I can tell many find him intimidating. I could definitely tell who was intimidated of him in the clinic.

When I went, I was there from 8am to almost 8pm at night and I watched his colt starting, set up in a small round pen. 

I know you can read reviews on this horseman and there are people who have said that he is a jerk, he is over the top, is mouthy, rude, has said offensive stuff, etc. But it's just who he is and that's why the first 10mins from me watching him, he reminded me of my BO because they both give off similar vibes.

Peter is no Buck, but he gives off a similar vibe.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Whenever a horse's behavior suddenly changes and she does something that is not normal for her, start looking for why she is off---it may be pain, someone has been messing with her, reproduction issues for mares, equipment that no longer fits due to changes in condition, the handler missing other subtle signals of what she's trying to say, or any number of other causes. Hitting a horse is seldom the correct response just because of pinned ears----that's the only way she has to tell you that something is not right. Listen to the horse, and don't jump to conclusions that she's being snarky. Fly's an easy going horse and is trying to tell you something is wrong---Now figure out what she's saying!


I had this in mind as well. 

I know she had her teeth floated last October and it's time to get her teeth checked up at least by the dentist when he comes out next (should be before winter). My BO doesn't think that she necessarily needs another floating so soon but wouldn't hurt to check.

I was wondering if perhaps her form has changed enough over the past 4 months of being ridden by me 2-3 times a week, that the current saddle is no longer fitting her as well or getting tight around the shoulders. This is the one area where my saddle fitter (at the time of fitting) said to me is "not tight" but it's snug and to check her withers and form every now and then to make sure that it doesnt get tight around the shoulders as her form changes over time.

It did come across my mind over the past few weeks that I'm probably due to have the massage therapist back out again for another session. It's been about 2.5 months I believe now.

What do you mean someone is messing with her? No one at the barn even goes near her.

The thing is that, of all 3 times where Fly pinned her ears at someone, it was when she was tied and the other person was just walking by behind her. Not even directly behind because she was at a bit of an angle. There was literally no other contact or communication prior to that. I wasn't near them at all, I was about 20-30ft away.


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## Prairie

Are you even sure she pinned her ears or did she just cock them back in response to someone walking behind her? I suspect you have totally misread this mare once again and needlessly corrected her for an infraction that she was not guilty of, 3 times! 


Simple example, if I'm grooming one of our horses and hubby walks behind them, even at a distance, the horse will cock both ears in his direction to figure out if that motion and noise is safe or does he need to go into flight mode. A horse's survival in nature depends on that individual being aware of what is going on around him in every direction. 


You are too quick to think your horse is being disrespectful when she's only acting like a horse being aware of her world. You're fortunate that Fly is so easy going and hasn't retaliated for your senseless corrections. Remember how you blamed Fly for not opening her mouth wide enough when bridling and the fault was not hers---you were inserting your finger in the wrong spot. This is another case of owner error.


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## greentree

I would tend to think she is not getting ENOUGH exercise, vs. Too much, and getting grumpy.

I meant to post something to your "barn drama" thread, but lost my connection.....

This may help you understand a little....

As you know, I have been around horses all of my 57 years. I have taken care of my own horses since age 8. I was lucky to be an early reader, so by the time I got that first pony, I had read every book available at our school library, and our regional public library. I did not just read, but STUDIED those books. Horses ARE my life, and have always been my life.
I have been a boarder, been to many horse events, both shows and recreational, but mostly made my own decisions. But this is not about me, but just a little bac
Severa l years ago, I had an observational epiphany. This forum, and others, have bourne this out.

Women have an inborn caretaking competitiveness. It is used extensively in marketing. It is what sells laundry fragrances, so that OUR children smell better than another's. It is why feed now comes in pretty colored bags, and why there are 5 bazillion different colors of (mostly useless) leg wraps, padded halters and bridles.

So, most of your boarder buddies are women. They have an inborn caretaking competitiveness. They each want to show that THEY can take better care of their horse than the next woman. Their horse is whiter, smells better, has shinier,healthier hooves(they use XXX hoof preperation to PROVE IT)....they use leg wraps to show how well cared for their horse is. Etc., etc.......

This is what causes the drama.....you cannot change it, it is the way they are wired. It gets WORSE after the children grow up and leave the nest. The older women are even MORE competitive about it.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Are you even sure she pinned her ears or did she just cock them back in response to someone walking behind her? I suspect you have totally misread this mare once again and needlessly corrected her for an infraction that she was not guilty of, 3 times!
> 
> 
> Simple example, if I'm grooming one of our horses and hubby walks behind them, even at a distance, the horse will cock both ears in his direction to figure out if that motion and noise is safe or does he need to go into flight mode. A horse's survival in nature depends on that individual being aware of what is going on around him in every direction.
> 
> 
> You are too quick to think your horse is being disrespectful when she's only acting like a horse being aware of her world. You're fortunate that Fly is so easy going and hasn't retaliated for your senseless corrections. Remember how you blamed Fly for not opening her mouth wide enough when bridling and the fault was not hers---you were inserting your finger in the wrong spot. This is another case of owner error.


I wasn't there to see it but from what I was told by the two people who walked by her and my farrier, is that she pinned her ears. If the farrier says that she pinned them at her, then I believe her. How is this a case of user error when she's been doing it to others and not me around to see? Also, the farrier corrected her, not me.


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## Prairie

That isn't the scenario you described.......


"So just starting this past Monday, Fly has started pinning her ears (when tied) at random people at the barn (other boarders) as they walk by. She has never done this before. Both times, I wasn't close enough to her to correct her and by the time I could get close enough, it would have been too late.
How would you correct her? Smack her on the neck real hard and say QUIT?!

Today, she got trimmed and she pinned her ears back at the farrier and the farrier taught her a real hard lesson by smacking her really hard on her muzzle. It was so instant and so fast that I was caught off guard as well. It totally caught Fly by surprise and I'm really hoping she learned her lesson. Our barn farrier will not put up with any of that. "


You imply that you were there, and there is no indication that you were not standing there as a witness. Fly's an easy going mare so I still suspect she was trying to say something that all of you missed. What was the farrier doing when she pinned her ears? I've seen too many farriers not set the horse up for success before grabbing a leg, get too rough, and have an attitude that a horse needs to be bullied rather working WITH the horse.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> That isn't the scenario you described.......
> 
> 
> "So just starting this past Monday, Fly has started pinning her ears (when tied) at random people at the barn (other boarders) as they walk by. She has never done this before. Both times, I wasn't close enough to her to correct her and by the time I could get close enough, it would have been too late.
> How would you correct her? Smack her on the neck real hard and say QUIT?!
> 
> Today, she got trimmed and she pinned her ears back at the farrier and the farrier taught her a real hard lesson by smacking her really hard on her muzzle. It was so instant and so fast that I was caught off guard as well. It totally caught Fly by surprise and I'm really hoping she learned her lesson. Our barn farrier will not put up with any of that. "
> 
> 
> You imply that you were there, and there is no indication that you were not standing there as a witness. Fly's an easy going mare so I still suspect she was trying to say something that all of you missed. What was the farrier doing when she pinned her ears? I've seen too many farriers not set the horse up for success before grabbing a leg, get too rough, and have an attitude that a horse needs to be bullied rather working WITH the horse.


I was there (as in the arena) but I was in the stall fiddling with my stuff or putting my saddle away. The only time that I was relatively close was when I was with the farrier but I was looking the other way when she pinned her ears at the farrier. I turned around and saw her get smacked.


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## carshon

There is no way - and I mean no way that anyone would hit my horse hard on the muzzle. It takes one time to cause a horse to be head shy. In extreme cases horses will take to defending themselves and it can lead to biting. 

If your horse has pinned her ears back is she doing it mean and aggressive or is she putting her ears back to listen to someone behind her? Maybe pinning is not the correct word? My horses will have both ears pointing backward if I walk behind them with another horse or if a strange horse walks behind them when they are tied to the trailer at a park. Pinning of the ears usually causes facial expressions as well - as in true anger or agitation.

I don't mind a farrier correcting a horse but hitting a horse on the face is a No No - Always.


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## Greenmeadows

It does kind of sound like a pain issue with Fly pinning her ears, especially if she just started doing it.


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> There is no way - and I mean no way that anyone would hit my horse hard on the muzzle. It takes one time to cause a horse to be head shy. In extreme cases horses will take to defending themselves and it can lead to biting.
> 
> If your horse has pinned her ears back is she doing it mean and aggressive or is she putting her ears back to listen to someone behind her? Maybe pinning is not the correct word? My horses will have both ears pointing backward if I walk behind them with another horse or if a strange horse walks behind them when they are tied to the trailer at a park. Pinning of the ears usually causes facial expressions as well - as in true anger or agitation.
> 
> I don't mind a farrier correcting a horse but hitting a horse on the face is a No No - Always.


I know that the whole debate of "hitting a horse on the face" has been talked about endlessly, but she smacked her on the muzzle and I was told you can't get a horse head shy by doing that. It's not the first time that Fly has been smacked on the muzzle thats forsure (mostly by me too).

Isn't it okay for farriers to hit horses though? I used to see it all the time at the previous barn. Those farriers would take the handle end (round part) of their rasp and whack any horse who would refuse to stand or pull away on the tummy, really hard. 

It's hard to say if her ears were all the way back. I know what you mean though and yes Fly does put her ears back often as people walk by (even me), but according to the two other boarders, they said she pinned her ears right back. I know her putting her ears back is normal, cause all she is doing is listening and paying attention to what's happening behind her. 

I will have to monitor it and keep an eye on it tomorrow when I head out to see her.


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## Hoofpic

Greenmeadows said:


> It does kind of sound like a pain issue with Fly pinning her ears, especially if she just started doing it.


And this is why I'm thinking about having my massage therapist back out again. Thoughts? Or should I contact my chiro? Afterall the last time she was adjusted was December of last year.

I just checked, Fly's last massage was June 30th.


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## Prairie

Too many farriers are totally clueless how to set a horse up for success, making sure the horse is standing square before picking up a hoof. Hitting a horse with a rasp, kicking one in the belly, any roughness in handling, etc are all signs the farrier doesn't know how to correct a horse and has lost his temper. A temper and anger have absolutely no place when working with horses. 


The only time our farrier has corrected one of our horses was the very first time----all she did was growl "quit" and jerk once on the lead rope. She's small, but the horses respect her because she knows how to work with them and sets them up for success. How many horses have you seen that can be trimmed with just a dropped leadrope (ground tied)? All of our can with this farrier.


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## EliRose

Whoever told you can't make a horse headshy by hitting it in the face was having one too many.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Too many farriers are totally clueless how to set a horse up for success, making sure the horse is standing square before picking up a hoof. Hitting a horse with a rasp, kicking one in the belly, any roughness in handling, etc are all signs the farrier doesn't know how to correct a horse and has lost his temper. A temper and anger have absolutely no place when working with horses.
> 
> 
> The only time our farrier has corrected one of our horses was the very first time----all she did was growl "quit" and jerk once on the lead rope. She's small, but the horses respect her because she knows how to work with them and sets them up for success. How many horses have you seen that can be trimmed with just a dropped leadrope (ground tied)? All of our can with this farrier.


Well the farrier that I was referring to was the very first one that I used at the previous barn. He was a terrible farrier anyways. There were 3 or 4 farriers at the old barn and I would always watch and observe whenever one was at the barn trimming or shoeing. All of them would always wack horses on the bellies with their rasps. I wouldn't say that they had a temper or were angry, they were just firm.


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## Greenmeadows

Hoofpic said:


> And this is why I'm thinking about having my massage therapist back out again. Thoughts? Or should I contact my chiro? Afterall the last time she was adjusted was December of last year.
> 
> I just checked, Fly's last massage was June 30th.


I would first check for any tender spots by running my hands over her, check the tack fit, maybe her teeth. Also try to determine if she is in heat, I know my mare acts cranky at that time. You probably already did all of that, and if you couldn't come up with anything, then if it is possible to have a more experienced friend look at her, that might give you some ideas since it isn't an emergency. I am unfamiliar with equine massage or chiropractor, but I suppose it couldn't hurt! After all, who doesn't like a massage?


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Well the farrier that I was referring to was the very first one that I used at the previous barn. He was a terrible farrier anyways. There were 3 or 4 farriers at the old barn and I would always watch and observe whenever one was at the barn trimming or shoeing. All of them would always wack horses on the bellies with their rasps. I wouldn't say that they had a temper or were angry, they were just firm.



Whacking a horse with a metal object on the belly is pure and simple abuse, a far cry from being firm. Firm is establishing the line of good behavior and correcting the horse for a transgression by backing him up or strategically placing your elbow for him to run into or even a single growled "quit" with a single jerk on the lead rope. Our tiny bit of a farrier can control an 18.2 hand, 2200 lb draft horse who decided to test her with just a growled "quit"---he sure remembered his manners quickly!


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## bsms

Whacking a horse on the belly with a metal rasp is a lot safer for a farrier than getting kicked or bitten. It isn't 1/10 of what another horse would do.

"_How many horses have you seen that can be trimmed with just a dropped leadrope (ground tied)?_"

All three of mine. Make that 5 if you include the previous two horses I've sold. That is also how they get their teeth done. If I'm not there, the farrier sticks the lead rope tip in his back pocket. But the same farrier who has my 3 done in 30-35 minutes has other clients where he has to rope and throw the horse. Depends on the horse.

The first farrier we used was awesome. He remains one of the best people I've ever seen around horses. He also had to stop work after getting his back broken by a horse. It can be a very dangerous way to make a living. I've fired farriers, but I also cut them some slack. It is their life / back / bones.


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## Rainaisabelle

My trimmer never smacked my horse although my horse is relatively well behaved for the trimmer and was very well behaved for the farrier. But I gave my old trimmer free rein to discipline as she pleased to a point of course but she never once hit him she backed him up a could of times, lunged him and if I saw him misbehaving one good 'Oi' and he would stop and behave. 

As for hitting a horse in the face it shouldn't happen. I can admit that once when my horse tried to bite me I gave him a flick to the nose but it hasn't made him head shy, I honestly wouldn't be leaving this farrier alone with your horse.


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## 6gun Kid

Dehda01 said:


> Peter Campbell is ripping people off. Buck Brannaman is $700 for 4 days... Big name earns the big cost. I have NEVER paid $600 per day... And I have ridden with Olympians and more.


 I am sure he is speaking about Canadian dollars, which as of thins morning is worth .77 USD so about 1850 for 4 days, still high, but cheaper than Clinton Anderson at 2500, Pat Parelli at 2-8000 depending on class, 2199 for Chris Cox, and just about in line with Craig Cameron at $1495. They charge what they do, because they can get it.


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## 6gun Kid

She is a mare, I am betting heavily on her being in heat, she will be back to normal in a few days.


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## updownrider

I grew up on a large horse farm, have managed large horse farms, and have been to horse farms all over the US and the world. At these farms and at horse shows I have worked with and observed farriers. I have never seen a farrier hit a horse with a rasp. I expect a farrier to work with a horse, not go to battle with a horse.


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## Hoofpic

Not a good atmosphere at the barn right now. I got a bit teary eyed in my friends truck today heading back from the barn when we were talking about the BO and I saw that she started crying. She has known him for 10 years.

BO hasnt been feeling well the past week and a half, he hasnt been himself at all. He is in alot of discomfort and everyone is very worried about him, including me. 

Because I am the newest member of the group and I haven't known the BO for very long (1 year vs 15 years from other boarders), I just let my friends have their chats with the BO and I stayed out and respect their space. But from what Ive been told, the BO thinks his cancer is coming back 

This is just devastating. I didnt know what to say. I know 3 people in my life who have passedaway from cancer.

I want to do everything that I can at the barn to help out, but Im still a rookie there and I know that the BO has his crew of helpers etc, so I need to mind my own business. You dont know how much its eating me up inside.

Im getting a bit teary eyed right now just writing this post. I know that Ive only known the BO for a year, but I have an incredibly big heart.


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## Hoofpic

Greenmeadows said:


> I would first check for any tender spots by running my hands over her, check the tack fit, maybe her teeth. Also try to determine if she is in heat, I know my mare acts cranky at that time. You probably already did all of that, and if you couldn't come up with anything, then if it is possible to have a more experienced friend look at her, that might give you some ideas since it isn't an emergency. I am unfamiliar with equine massage or chiropractor, but I suppose it couldn't hurt! After all, who doesn't like a massage?


I can do that and check for tender spots tomorrow. I did some today and didn't get any reaction out of her. 

Also no ear pinning today, she was very good.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Whacking a horse with a metal object on the belly is pure and simple abuse, a far cry from being firm. Firm is establishing the line of good behavior and correcting the horse for a transgression by backing him up or strategically placing your elbow for him to run into or even a single growled "quit" with a single jerk on the lead rope. Our tiny bit of a farrier can control an 18.2 hand, 2200 lb draft horse who decided to test her with just a growled "quit"---he sure remembered his manners quickly!


Well, my farrier at the old barn did this to Fly the very first time he met and trimmed her. This was also the very first time that Fly had a "farrier" trim her since the previous owner always trimmed her herself.

Fly wouldn't stand still, kept pulling her foot away as the farrier would put her hoof on his stand and then all of a sudden a REAL HARD whack on Fly's belly with the end of the handle of rasp. Fly was startled and immediately smartened up but I was like AHHHH!!! What are you doing, a bit harsh no?! I didn't say that, I was thinking that. 

Fly was also still in the transition phase of getting used to her new home, so I thought it was a bit harsh what he did at the time but I didn't say anything because I just met this guy and I just got Fly literally a week ago.

I'm so glad I got rid of that farrier. 

But all the farriers at the previous barn would always use their tools to smack the horses who don't listen. And I'm not talking, little or medium whacks. I mean real hard! I would be in the barn brushing Fly and all I would hear is whack, whack, whack.


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## tinyliny

folks used to use some rather harsh ways with horses. it just was. when I was growing up and if a horse bloated up when you were trying to cinch up the saddle, I was told to knee him, real sudden like, hard in the stomach. that would get him to stop holding in air. I don't do that now. there are better ways.


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## Dehda01

@6gun Kid I have ridden with Clinton Anderson (within the last 3 years) and Buck Brannaman and never paid those huge prices on the western side of clinicians. I don't know. I won't compare the dressage and 3 day eventer a I have ridden with, but always less than 200-350 a day- usually much less. Maybe I just lucked out.


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## 6gun Kid

Dehda01 said:


> @*6gun Kid* I have ridden with Clinton Anderson (within the last 3 years) and Buck Brannaman and never paid those huge prices on the western side of clinicians. I don't know. I won't compare the dressage and 3 day eventer a I have ridden with, but always less than 200-350 a day- usually much less. Maybe I just lucked out.


Maybe, I wasn't trying to be argumentative I thought the price was high so I went and looked, I pulled those prices right off of their websites, that is what I like about BB, his price is reasonable and he doesn't try and sell you a bunch of crap.


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## Hoofpic

My friend boarder (who boards her mare in the same herd as Fly) got upset at Fly on Saturday. It REALLY bothers her and upsets her that Fly will chase her mare off from time to time and bit her. But Fly is above her in the herd and my friends mare is at the bottom of the herd. I've tried telling her this but she keeps saying that Fly is being mean and is just picking on her. Not she's not. I've watched enough of these two to know 100% that Fly is not picking on her mare. She's just being a horse.

I don't know what else to say, but Saturday her and I were fixing their shelter and she saw Fly pin her ears back at her mare and nip her in the HQ (not overly hard) and she got upset. If you want to see hard biting, watch the two geldings in Fly's herd. When they pin their ears back and threaten to bite, they are very vocal about it. Fly "can" be sometimes with her mare (I've seen it, it all depends on the situation), but she wasn't on Saturday. 

How would you guys handle it? Does she have a right to be upset? Or am I right here in saying that Fly isn't picking on her, she's just being a horse. I think it bothers her because Fly is half the age of her mare (5 vs 10) and Fly is 14.2hh vs her mare is 15.2hh. 

Her mare is for the most part good but she doesn't have near the amount of groundwork on her compared to Fly so often she will not listen the first time. And often it will take loud body language to get her to respond to ques. BO and trainer says it's because of lack of groundwork and how she's been handled and taught to avoid and get out of what's being asked. They wouldn't say by who, but it's obvious who the owner is.


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## Hoofpic

Continued from the last post...

And this is true, I knew 100% what they meant when they said it. My friend lets her mare get away with a lot of stuff (she doesn't believe in nipping any horse in the bud) and attaches human emotions to her.


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## palogal

It's herd behavior. She can move her mare out of the herd if she doesn't like it. 
The BO and the trainer are both idiots. This has nothing to do with ground work or lack of ground work. It's lack of respect that does not necessarily need to be addressed with ground work. Ground work is not a magic wand. Respect issues can be handled several ways, most effectively with presence and a firm hand on the ground. 

So, to answer your question. She needs to get over it. They're being horses, and developing pecking order. If your horse starts biting people - that's a different problem. I would suggest she carry a crop when she goes to catch her horse and be prepared to pop your mare if she crowds her.


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## Dehda01

6gun Kid said:


> Maybe, I wasn't trying to be argumentative I thought the price was high so I went and looked, I pulled those prices right off of their websites, that is what I like about BB, his price is reasonable and he doesn't try and sell you a bunch of crap.


No argument I just feel there are ways to ride with quality trainers without big price tags. Peter Campbell seems inflated for a trainer who,IMHO, is not a BNT. therefore is not yet deserving of the big $$$, except MAYBE colt starting... Because then a person might die at a clinic depending on what fool might bring a true rank horse to a walk-in starting clinic and I do think that they earn their money then.


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## Hoofpic

palogal said:


> It's herd behavior. She can move her mare out of the herd if she doesn't like it.
> The BO and the trainer are both idiots. This has nothing to do with ground work or lack of ground work. It's lack of respect that does not necessarily need to be addressed with ground work. Ground work is not a magic wand. Respect issues can be handled several ways, most effectively with presence and a firm hand on the ground.
> 
> So, to answer your question. She needs to get over it. They're being horses, and developing pecking order. If your horse starts biting people - that's a different problem. I would suggest she carry a crop when she goes to catch her horse and be prepared to pop your mare if she crowds her.


What the BO and trainer meant was that her mare doesn't have the groundwork under her belt in having that mare respect her owner. What they were referring to was stuff like lunging, keeping a horse out of your space, getting them to respond to ques like backing up etc. They were probably just too vague about it when they said "groundwork"

My friend won't ever hit a horse, she's totally against nipping a horse in the bud because she believes hitting a horse (anywhere) is damaging to them. So her mare could bit someone (she doesn't though, so that's good), and she would raise her voice at her but would never whack her mare.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> No argument I just feel there are ways to ride with quality trainers without big price tags. Peter Campbell seems inflated for a trainer who,IMHO, is not a BNT. therefore is not yet deserving of the big $$$, except MAYBE colt starting... Because then a person might die at a clinic depending on what fool might bring a true rank horse to a walk-in starting clinic and I do think that they earn their money then.


I agree that Peter is not a BNT and is overcharging his participants. I've talked with his wife Trina many months prior to attending his last clinic here in June and she confirmed, to attend their class everyday (minus the colt starting of course, which was at night), it is $600CDN per rider, per day. If you attend all four days, she will give you $100 off a day, making it $2000 total.


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## palogal

Hoofpic said:


> What the BO and trainer meant was that her mare doesn't have the groundwork under her belt in having that mare respect her owner. What they were referring to was stuff like lunging, keeping a horse out of your space, getting them to respond to ques like backing up etc. They were probably just too vague about it when they said "groundwork"
> 
> My friend won't ever hit a horse, she's totally against nipping a horse in the bud because she believes hitting a horse (anywhere) is damaging to them. So her mare could bit someone (she doesn't though, so that's good), and she would raise her voice at her but would never whack her mare.


Well she can deal with it then. If she won't take control, a 1000 animal will certainly take it and run.


----------



## Hoofpic

palogal said:


> Well she can deal with it then. If she won't take control, a 1000 animal will certainly take it and run.


I agree and unfortunately my friend lets her mare get away with a lot of stuff. Nipping a horse in the bud is in no way or form damaging to them, it's body language, it's horse language. You gotta do whatever it takes for them to respond and do what's being asked.

If the herd leader asks another horse in the herd to move and the horse doesn't listen. The boss is not going to stand there and keep asking for him to politely move over, he will eventually pin those ears back and bit the horse, forcing them to move. But like I said, her and I have different views on horsemanship. She doesn't believe in any of that and feels that whacking a horse is abuse.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> folks used to use some rather harsh ways with horses. it just was. when I was growing up and if a horse bloated up when you were trying to cinch up the saddle, I was told to knee him, real sudden like, hard in the stomach. that would get him to stop holding in air. I don't do that now. there are better ways.


There was one boarder at the old barn who would kick his geldings in the belly with his super thick cowboy boot whenever they tried to bite him. And I'm not talking a light kick either.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I agree that Peter is not a BNT and is overcharging his participants. I've talked with his wife Trina many months prior to attending his last clinic here in June and she confirmed, to attend their class everyday (minus the colt starting of course, which was at night), it is $600CDN per rider, per day. If you attend all four days, she will give you $100 off a day, making it $2000 total.


Again, not correct, if you choose just to do the Foundation Horsemanship Course it costs $600 for the 3 days...

Cart - Peter CampbellPeter Campbell

It is doing multiple classes that makes it expensive, no sane person would pay $600 a DAY to clinic just for one course.


----------



## Hoofpic

Do you guys remember 9 months ago when Fly was just put into the herd and for the first few days I was really worried about her because she had bite marks and she was standing off to the side in the field and looking over the fence? I even questioned if she was in immediate danger. I was posting on here all worried and concerned for her. 

I didn't think she would fit into the herd at all. But funny how things work because honestly, Fly couldn't find a better bunch to be with, she has become a key member of the herd and all 4 of them have become very close and attached to each other.

So at my next lesson, I went to my trainer and said "I don't know if this is going to work or not, Fly is standing off to the side of the field, she doesn't look happy...I think the other horses are picking on her and being really mean to her...they're bullying her".

My trainer didn't say anything except "just give it time", probably because she's never heard such a dumb question before. I don't blame her. She didn't say anything because she was telling me that I didn't understand at the time how herd instincts work. 

Well now looking back, I feel like a complete idiot for saying any of that. If Fly was put into the herd today, I gaurentee I wouldn't have said or thought any of that because I no longer attach human emotions to her, I understand herd behavior a lot better and I understand how pecking orders work. I don't see things the same way that I did 8 or 9 months ago.

Do I still see the two geldings chase and pin their ears back and threaten to bite Fly from time to time? Of course I do. Do I like it? Of course not. No horse owner likes seeing their horse get bit and threatened to be kicked by another horse. But it's herd instincts and they are horses. So I don't get upset when I see it. Unless I am in the field myself and it happens (which no longer happens anymore), I don't do anything about it because at the end of the day, they're just being horses.


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## greentree

Ok, sorry, but I have let this GROW too long....humor.

Hoofpic, you keep refetring to "nipping a horse in the bud". 

The expression is " nipping (something) in the bud" , meaning fixing it while it is a small thing, instead of letting it get big (grow)...we pinch plant buds off to keep a plant smaller. 

As a not so great example for a non-plant person.....mowing the grass regularly is "nipping it in the bud". (Fixing it before it gets big) 

Carry on...


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## greentree

Double post!!!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Ok, sorry, but I have let this GROW too long....humor.
> 
> Hoofpic, you keep refetring to "nipping a horse in the bud".
> 
> The expression is " nipping (something) in the bud" , meaning fixing it while it is a small thing, instead of letting it get big (grow)...we pinch plant buds off to keep a plant smaller.
> 
> As a not so great example for a non-plant person.....mowing the grass regularly is "nipping it in the bud". (Fixing it before it gets big)
> 
> Carry on...


Oh? I always thought that the term "nipping a horse in the bud" was just another casual term for just correcting a horse.

So when I was referring to my friend and her nipping her mare in the bud. What I really meant is that yes she nips her horse in the bud, just only to a certain level. And that includes never laying a human hand on your horse when correcting them, nor a crop, or whip, or whatever. She mainly just uses her voice.


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## Prairie

NO! "nipping a horse in the bud" is wrong, and what you are nipping in the bud is some misbehavior by the horse. So if I'm telling someone about a horse that I corrected for invading my space, I'd say "I nipped that disrespect of my boundary in the bud by backing him hard out of my space" I certainly didn't physically "nip" the horse which is what "nipping the horse in the bud" implies!


----------



## Hoofpic

A couple other things.

I didn't ride Fly at all this weekend (I will today), I wanted to see if she has any soar spots and she is fine. No owes from what I know of. 

I touched her all over and I didn't get any kind of reaction from her. I will check again for sore spots after I ride her today because if it was from the saddle, then these sore spots would show up at its peak after the saddle has been on and the horse has been worked. 

No ear pinning either (but then again the barn was super quiet this weekend). She was super low key this weekend. Just a good ol' mare.

I will see how she is tonight when I saddle her.


Lately, I've been wanting to work on ground tying with her some more. I would still like to get her ground tied better. She is better today than she was months ago but I want her to be even better. I know it's groundwork and Fly and I should be past that now, but I still think it's a valuable trait for all horses to know.

I can manage to ground tie her in the isle and back up without her moving. The furthest I get is about 15ft lol. I know, not great, but it's still something. And Fly knows exactly what's being asked of. 

I can ground tie her in the roundpen or outdoor arena (Where there is grass), lay the lead perfectly straight on the ground and circle her without her moving, but the largest circle that I can form around her is maybe 8 or 9 ft. In the past, I was able to sometimes get 2 circles out of her. But I would love to be able to say run to the opposite end of the arena, do circles, run up to her, do more circles and have her stand still and know that, as long as that lead is perfectly straight in front of her on the ground, it means she needs to stand no matter where I go.

Now, I have taught her a que in when I let her put her head down to eat grass and that is (while holding the very end of the lead), with both hands, I lift my arms, I throw the lead in the air and let it fall of the ground. She has learned that this is my physical que that it's okay to eat grass. I know it's a bit over the top, but I wanted to make my physical que as exaggerated as possible for her to understand what I'm trying to teach her.

So yesterday when I worked on ground tying with her, I was a bit worried that when I put the lead on the ground, she would mistaken it for me letting her graze. I wanted to make sure that she didn't get this confused. So ground tying, I don't even drop the lead to the floor. I softly place it on the floor and lay it perfectly straight from her snap to me. Also, no arm gestures with my arms.

Now I'm not expecting her to distinguish the difference in my ques between the lead all bunched up on the ground versus me a perfectly straight lead on the ground. But I'm hoping she can and will pinpoint the difference between me lifting my arms and having the lead crash down to the ground vs me bending over and laying the lead on the ground myself.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> NO! "nipping a horse in the bud" is wrong, and what you are nipping in the bud is some misbehavior by the horse. So if I'm telling someone about a horse that I corrected for invading my space, I'd say "I nipped that disrespect of my boundary in the bud by backing him hard out of my space" I certainly didn't physically "nip" the horse which is what "nipping the horse in the bud" implies!


OH I get it now, well I think I do. Sorry, it's just whenever I've heard the term at the previous barn, people would always imply that nipping a horse in the bud was always a physical reprimand.

So going back to my friend. 

The best way to rephrase it is that she DOES believe in nipping a horse in the bud, just no hitting or whacking a horse. 

She does nip her horse in the bud, just verbally and not physically.


----------



## Prairie

How are you handling the rope when you are letting her graze? If done correctly, she should not be confused by being allowed to graze and being ground tied. Also, the whole purpose of ground tying is that the horse will stay in one spot without moving if you have to dismount quickly----there's no time to lay out the rope----or if there is no place to tie the horse while you tend to something and need the horse to stay in one spot. Once again you're overthinking something that's simple and making it confusing for your horse.


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## egrogan

Wait, what?



Hoofpic said:


> Now, I have taught her a que in when I let her put her head down to eat grass and that is (while holding the very end of the lead), with both hands, I lift my arms, I throw the lead in the air and let it fall of the ground. She has learned that this is my physical que that it's okay to eat grass.


Like, you throw it in the air like confetti and then let the lead go so she's loose? 









Why not just teach her that a word like "ok" means eat?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> How are you handling the rope when you are letting her graze? If done correctly, she should not be confused by being allowed to graze and being ground tied.


I keep a good amount of the lead on the floor (maybe 3ft of the lead). When I first got her, I would always graze her with the lead all off the ground simply because I was worried in case she would run off and trip. 



> Also, the whole purpose of ground tying is that the horse will stay in one spot without moving if you have to dismount quickly----there's no time to lay out the rope----or if there is no place to tie the horse while you tend to something and need the horse to stay in one spot. Once again you're overthinking something that's simple and making it confusing for your horse.


That's true but as long as you have enough space, you can always do an emergency dismount. 

I do think it's very beneficial if you have no place to tie your horse.

Or the times where I've found it beneficial. When I would untie her to take her in the arena and I forgot something in my stall. So instead of tying her back up again, I just lay the lead on the ground and I go back in my stall to get what I have to get. 

How do you think I can make these two ques simpler?

I don't mean to make it confusing but I've had to think quite a bit about the que to give her to allow her to graze. Because remember, this is not something I could go to my BO or trainer about because I told you guys what they think about hand grazing. Everyone at my barn (aside from me and two friends) are so against hand grazing it's not even funny.

In their opinion (and same goes for 3 out of the 6 other boarders there), when a halter is on, it means work time and no horse should ever be allowed to eat grass when they have a halter on because my BO said that the reason why the people who have horses that constantly dive for grass, is because the owners hand graze them. Don't hand graze, problem solved. 

Which IMO I disagree with (and you guys have said so as well), but everyone has their own opinions.


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## Prairie

Just drop the rope---it really is that simple if you've correctly taught that a dropped lead rope means stand and do not move until I tell you too. Why are you hand grazing a horse who spends most of her time on pasture anyway? It's certainly not a reward since it's nothing out of the ordinary for her to have access to fresh grass. Also, if you are holding a horse's rope, that rope should not be on the ground---it's a matter of safety, plus what if she bolts with all that slack in the line. Think how your hands would be burned and how you'd land on the ground.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> 
> 
> Like, you throw it in the air like confetti and then let the lead go so she's loose?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not just teach her that a word like "ok" means eat?


"Ok" sounds like a good word to use.

I don't throw my hands in the air like that, but I just casually lift my arms chest height then drop the lead on the floor, but still have a handle of the first couple feet of the lead. Then when she eats, I eat up the rest of the slack in the lead.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Just drop the rope---it really is that simple if you've correctly taught that a dropped lead rope means stand and do not move until I tell you too. Why are you hand grazing a horse who spends most of her time on pasture anyway? It's certainly not a reward since it's nothing out of the ordinary for her to have access to fresh grass. Also, if you are holding a horse's rope, that rope should not be on the ground---it's a matter of safety, plus what if she bolts with all that slack in the line. Think how your hands would be burned and how you'd land on the ground.


Well, ground tying is something that I've worked on her with, but no more than 4 or 5 times. 

The reason why I would lift my arms is because I just wanted to exaggerate my que at first so she would catch on easier and quicker. I would just drop the lead when giving her the que to graze (this was my initial plan), but I really questioned if there was enough physical difference for her to distinguish that being different than me laying the lead on the ground and I didn't think there was.

I don't hand graze her a lot but I do it as a nice reward every now and then and just to change things up and another way to spending time together. She is in a field but they have very little grass, it's pretty much chewed down with 4 horses in there.


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## updownrider

Hoofpic said:


> OH I get it now, well I think I do. Sorry, it's just whenever I've heard the term at the previous barn, people would always imply that nipping a horse in the bud was always a physical reprimand.
> 
> So going back to my friend.
> 
> The best way to rephrase it is that she DOES believe in nipping a horse in the bud, just no hitting or whacking a horse.
> 
> She does nip her horse in the bud, just verbally and not physically.


Horses are not plants. Horses do not have buds. 


"Nipping it in the bud" or "nip it in the bud" is not a horse phrase or idiom.

It means to stop a problem before it becomes bigger. Problems exist everywhere, beyond horses.


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## Hoofpic

updownrider said:


> Horses are not plants. Horses do not have buds.
> 
> 
> "Nipping it in the bud" or "nip it in the bud" is not a horse phrase or idiom.
> 
> It means to stop a problem before it becomes bigger. Problems exist everywhere, beyond horses.


Thanks. I didn't know that. inkunicorn:


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## Zexious

Exaggerating an aid or request will not "help" your horse learn more quickly or more easily.


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## PoptartShop

I never let my horse graze while he's supposed to be working. That can turn into a habit, bad behavior.
You shouldn't let the lead rope fall to the ground either- as others said, the horse could step on it and spook themselves (trust me, it happens), etc. I wouldn't recommend doing that. 
Redz doesn't get tied, he ground-ties easily. He knows NOT to move, or go eat grass. It's important to teach the horse that.

I'm not saying I don't let my horse graze ever, but when we are working...nope. Not happening. I'd never drop the lead rope either- that's just a recipe for disaster. Even if I'm letting my horse graze, I still hold the rope.


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## palogal

Hoofpic said:


> OH I get it now, well I think I do. Sorry, it's just whenever I've heard the term at the previous barn, people would always imply that nipping a horse in the bud was always a physical reprimand.
> 
> So going back to my friend.
> 
> The best way to rephrase it is that she DOES believe in nipping a horse in the bud, just no hitting or whacking a horse.
> 
> She does nip her horse in the bud, just verbally and not physically.


Which is why the horse has no respect for her. If there's nothing to back up the voice, there is nothing to make the horse take the voice seriously.


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> I never let my horse graze while he's supposed to be working. That can turn into a habit, bad behavior.
> You shouldn't let the lead rope fall to the ground either- as others said, the horse could step on it and spook themselves (trust me, it happens), etc. I wouldn't recommend doing that.
> Redz doesn't get tied, he ground-ties easily. He knows NOT to move, or go eat grass. It's important to teach the horse that.
> 
> I'm not saying I don't let my horse graze ever, but when we are working...nope. Not happening. I'd never drop the lead rope either- that's just a recipe for disaster. Even if I'm letting my horse graze, I still hold the rope.


Thanks. Well good thing it was just recently that I started putting part of the lead rope touching the ground when hand grazing Fly. I always used to always have it off the floor in case she runs off and doesnt trip and I will go back to doing that.


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## Hoofpic

AH CRAP I just hurt myself.

Had Fly all saddled up and walked her in the arena. She saw two pieces of white paper, went to see it and I guess the paper started flying towards her. She spooked and guess which direction she was going? Thats right, towards me! She knocked me over and I went flying into the sand and next thing you know there was a big cloud of sand all over I couldn't see for a second. 

I was really scared for a few seconds there. Very lucky I only came out with a bruise and scrap on the inner ankle bone.

Everyone is injured these days at the barn. First my friend dislocated her elbow and is out of action for at least 4-6 weeks and now me. But i should heal in a week and can most likely still ride, just can't do rising trot.


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## Hoofpic

AH CRAP I just hurt myself.

Had Fly all saddled up and walked her in the arena. She saw two pieces of white paper, went to see it and I guess the paper started flying towards her. She spooked and guess which direction she was going? Thats right, towards me! She knocked me over and I went flying into the sand and next thing you know there was a big cloud of sand all over I couldn't see for a second. I literally did a full summersaut backwards when i landed.

I got up and went very fast into Fly getting her to back up and said NO NO No loudly. I wasnt yelling and I didnt raise my temper but I meant business. The only thing is,when I got up I noticed that I was limping and I couldn't go too far or too fast without discomfort.

I was really scared for a few seconds there when things were calm, then all of a sudden Fly takes off towards me as if she just saw a cougar. Very lucky I only came out with a bruise and scrap on the inner ankle bone.

Everyone is injured these days at the barn. First my friend dislocated her elbow and is out of action for at least 4-6 weeks and now me. But i should heal in a week and can most likely still ride, just can't do rising trot.

I feel so embarassed and feel like a complete moron. I dont know if I can tell my friends and trainer at the barn what happened. Stuff like this shouldnt be happening.

But I told you guys because I wont learn and get better if I dont tell you guys right?


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## Prairie

You just learned a valuable lesson-----always keep one eye on the horse and one on what is going on around you so you are prepared for those sudden spooks. 


By the time you got up, hobbled after Fly, and got her, your 3 seconds were up----way too late to correct her. Actually the fault doesn't lie with Fly either since you weren't obeying the first rule of safety around horses---be ready for a spook and know where that horse is headed. That is easily done with the correct length of lead rope or rein and paying attention! In my almost 60 years of being around horses, including in herd situations, I've never been run over or knocked down by a horse simply because my first teacher drilled into us that horses are unpredictable and you can't let your guard down.


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## Rainaisabelle

I'm confused were you Infront of her ? Or to the side ? How were you holding the lead rope ?


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> You just learned a valuable lesson-----always keep one eye on the horse and one on what is going on around you so you are prepared for those sudden spooks.
> 
> 
> By the time you got up, hobbled after Fly, and got her, your 3 seconds were up----way too late to correct her. Actually the fault doesn't lie with Fly either since you weren't obeying the first rule of safety around horses---be ready for a spook and know where that horse is headed. That is easily done with the correct length of lead rope or rein and paying attention! In my almost 60 years of being around horses, including in herd situations, I've never been run over or knocked down by a horse simply because my first teacher drilled into us that horses are unpredictable and you can't let your guard down.


I know 100% that it was my fault. Sometimes when I take Fly into the arena and go about shutting the gate, she will see a couple seats for people watching and there will be stuff like coffee cups or whatever there from time to time. After today, I will no longer do it. I will eat up the slack in the lead and when I walk her in, she is to keep her head up and not sniffing anything. 

I know after I got up and went after Fly, that it was too late but I had to do something than just get knocked over like a bowling pin. I tried to get up as fast as I could but I was covered in sand (which I took care of later).

I still rode her but only at a walk, I kept it short at 10mins and I had to keep my right ankle out of the stirrup.

I think if anything, I was the most dissapointed that Fly knocked me over. If she saw me as a leader, wouldn't she NOT do that? I know shes a flight animal and when there is something that makes them feel in danger, they will take off in any direction. But still, a horse who respects their handler, wouldn't they take notice where they are and not do it?


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## Prairie

No you did not have to do anything to discipline Fly since even you admit that you were at fault. That discipline only confused her and was pointless after that much time had passed, especially since you were the one not paying attention to where she was and what was happening around you.


How are you going through a gate while leading a horse? If there's stuff for her to get into, back her through the gate so you can shut it behind you without her putting her nose where it doesn't belong.


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## Rainaisabelle

If the horse isn't paying any attention to you then yes they're going to run you over regardless. You don't need to completely hold her head when you pick up the slack in the lead but she needs to be paying attention to where you are


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I'm confused were you Infront of her ? Or to the side ? How were you holding the lead rope ?


I was to her left side. I opened the gate, walked in with her. Turned around to close the gate and when I turned back around she was sniffing the papers on the seat. I grabbed a tighter hold of the lead and was about to start walking her to the center of the arena when all of a sudden she bolts right towards me. 

Holy I was really scared!!! When I saw her pick up acceleration and I immediately thought to myself, please don't run over me! I thought I was going to end up in the hospital.:neutral:


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> No you did not have to do anything to discipline Fly since even you admit that you were at fault. That discipline only confused her and was pointless after that much time had passed, especially since you were the one not paying attention to where she was and what was happening around you.
> 
> 
> How are you going through a gate while leading a horse? If there's stuff for her to get into, back her through the gate so you can shut it behind you without her putting her nose where it doesn't belong.


I think the biggest thing was that I've never been knocked over by a horse before and I always thought that a horse who comes into your space and knocks you over (even when spooking), should be corrected. No different than a horse who gets into your space when leading them or barges into you, pushes their head into you etc.


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## Hoofpic

palogal said:


> Which is why the horse has no respect for her. If there's nothing to back up the voice, there is nothing to make the horse take the voice seriously.


True, but my friends at the barn attach human emotions to their horses, talk to them in soothing baby voices and only correct them verbally or don't correct them at all. I care about them, and it can be difficult seeing some of the stuff that I see, but I know I need to mind my own business and it's their horse.

For instance, one of them refuses to stand when at the mounting block. She knows how to, she just doesn't listen to her handler. My trainer has told my friend to use the crop and for each time she walks off or swings her HQ around as she is about to get on, she needs to get off that block and whack her and move her back to where she was. And each time she has to do it, she needs to AMP IT UP! 

But my friend won't use a crop on her mare because she believes its detrimental whacking any horse with a crop, whip, etc. 

So what she does is, she will jump off the block, then take her mare in a 15 metre circle, and try again. But really what she has taught her horse to do is, each time she walks off and swings her hind end out, she gets to go for a walk and is taught that she can easily avoid having to stand at the block when asked.


----------



## EliRose

Who cares.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> True, but my friends at the barn attach human emotions to their horses, talk to them in soothing baby voices and only correct them verbally or don't correct them at all. I care about them, and it can be difficult seeing some of the stuff that I see, but I know I need to mind my own business and it's their horse.
> 
> For instance, one of them refuses to stand when at the mounting block. She knows how to, she just doesn't listen to her handler. My trainer has told my friend to use the crop and for each time she walks off or swings her HQ around as she is about to get on, she needs to get off that block and whack her and move her back to where she was. And each time she has to do it, she needs to AMP IT UP!
> 
> But my friend won't use a crop on her mare because she believes its detrimental whacking any horse with a crop, whip, etc.
> 
> So what she does is, she will jump off the block, then take her mare in a 15 metre circle, and try again. But really what she has taught her horse to do is, each time she walks off and swings her hind end out, she gets to go for a walk and is taught that she can easily avoid having to stand at the block when asked.



It has nothing to do with you how they handle their horse as I'm sure they would have a few things to say about how you handle yours. Focus on the problems you are having and let your friends sort out theirs, it's much easier to 'train' a horse from an outside perspective rather then being the primary handler.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> It has nothing to do with you how they handle their horse as I'm sure they would have a few things to say about how you handle yours. Focus on the problems you are having and let your friends sort out theirs, it's much easier to 'train' a horse from an outside perspective rather then being the primary handler.


I know. I'm minding my own business


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> I know. I'm minding my own business


Your last post is pretty contradictory to that.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know. I'm minding my own business
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your last post is pretty contradictory to that.
Click to expand...

Sorry I dont mean to.

I got very lucky that Fly only clipped my ankle, I could have gotten seriously hurt. Really scary having a 900lb animal all of a sudden take off in a flash in your direction.

I have my ankle smothered in emu oil right now to keep the swelling down and get rid of the sensitivity. Feels like really bad sunburn.


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## tinyliny

Hi hoofpic,

sorry that you had that scary experience. it happens. I almost got run over by my friend's horse coming through a gate (something he's anxious about anyway) when a large piece of paper wafted up behind him. (who leaves paper around on the ground at a barn?!!!) He charged forward and nearly knocked me off my feet. I was at a disadvantage as he was behind me and I was busy holding the gate open, so did not 'see' him. just felt him blaze into me, scraping down the back of my ankle, and had the presense of mind to shank the lead rope fast and hard. he, well trained horse that he is, was held between his terror of the paper behind him, and his training that says "STOP!" when the halter is jerked. he sort of 'plunged' in one place for a sec. then we went on. I did not punish him, but the shanking was very immediate, to remind him that he can't run past me.

if you had been able to, you can sometimes get a hrose that is spooking into you to stop, or angle away, by throwing up your arms, or swinging the leadline or reins at them, but you habve to be super fast. otherwise, get out of the way.

whenever possible, when I am leading a hrose, I try to think where he might go, if he spooks, and I leave him a place to go. however, it's completely impossible to know every thing that will happen. you just have to take a deep breathe and go on. being scared is not the same as being truly injured.
you will be back in the saddle in a day or two.


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## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> I think if anything, I was the most dissapointed that Fly knocked me over. If she saw me as a leader, wouldn't she NOT do that? I know shes a flight animal and when there is something that makes them feel in danger, they will take off in any direction. But still, a horse who respects their handler, wouldn't they take notice where they are and not do it?


I think just like with humans, thoughts about our surroundings require a moment in time to process. That's the thing about being startled: you react before you think. So if a person jumped out from behind a corner dressed like a gorilla, you might jump any which way and knock into someone standing next to you even if it was the President or a police officer. That would not mean you didn't "respect" that person, it would just mean you reacted before you could think about who you were standing next to. You might also step to one side into a wall or step into a hole that you forgot was there. That's my take anyway. :smile:

Once my horse ran over the top of me, meaning no disrespect. I was blocking the path to her grain, and she really wanted to get to it. She tried to rush forward, but I was standing there and she respected me. So she backed off again, closed her eyes, and walaa, I disappeared! So she rushed forward over me with her eyes closed. Well, it was very funny and I didn't punish her but the next time she closed her eyes like that I reprimanded her and made her open them up and notice I was still there. I think her reasoning was that if she couldn't see me, maybe I wasn't there.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I still rode her but only at a walk, I kept it short at 10mins and I had to keep my right ankle out of the stirrup.


Your boots don't cover this part of your leg?

...remember a while back when I spoke about clothing and tack having a specific function? This is one of those functions that riding boots serve.


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## PoptartShop

She really shouldn't have been disciplined. Horses spook sometimes at the most random things, but that doesn't make them 'wrong' for doing it.
It was definitely too late to correct her. 
She should be paying attention to you, but I think you need to work on that too.


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## greentree

When horses are scared outside, they CLING together. When horses are scared near us, they jump ON us, in an attempt to CLING for safety.
The more immature the horse, the more they cling...watch a mare and foal.

I am sorry that she stepped on you, but you are tough!


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> Hi hoofpic,
> 
> sorry that you had that scary experience. it happens. I almost got run over by my friend's horse coming through a gate (something he's anxious about anyway) when a large piece of paper wafted up behind him. (who leaves paper around on the ground at a barn?!!!) He charged forward and nearly knocked me off my feet. I was at a disadvantage as he was behind me and I was busy holding the gate open, so did not 'see' him. just felt him blaze into me, scraping down the back of my ankle, and had the presense of mind to shank the lead rope fast and hard. he, well trained horse that he is, was held between his terror of the paper behind him, and his training that says "STOP!" when the halter is jerked. he sort of 'plunged' in one place for a sec. then we went on. I did not punish him, but the shanking was very immediate, to remind him that he can't run past me.
> 
> if you had been able to, you can sometimes get a hrose that is spooking into you to stop, or angle away, by throwing up your arms, or swinging the leadline or reins at them, but you habve to be super fast. otherwise, get out of the way.
> 
> whenever possible, when I am leading a hrose, I try to think where he might go, if he spooks, and I leave him a place to go. however, it's completely impossible to know every thing that will happen. you just have to take a deep breathe and go on. being scared is not the same as being truly injured.
> you will be back in the saddle in a day or two.


That's okay, I'm just upset at myself, I should have known better. That kinda sounds like what happened to Fly. I found out in the last lesson that she does not like paper, just normal 8.5x11 white paper. 

I worked on it with it a bit after I rode her yesterday. I just put the two pieces on the ground and got her to sniff it and walk between them, then over them, then rubbed the paper on her muzzle, neck, shoulder, withers. She was fine. 

What happened was my trainer left two pieces of paper on the small table inbetween the two seats in the arena. When I pushed open the gate to get into the arena, I usually do a half turn to close the gate and Fly went to sniff the papers and when I turned back around getting ready to get her to turn around and walk with me, the papers flew because afterwards the paper were about 10ft into the arena. Because I was standing about 2-3ft from her, all I see is, all of a sudden she takes off and I didn't have enough time to quickly get out of the way. If I could, I would have, it would have saved me the injury. Then I could have settled her down and tell her to WHOA. 

I've been wanting to, but Fly has an incredibly fast (like all horses) take off from a standstill. Like she is incredibly quick. I used to do this all the time at the old barn when I would let her loose in the arena (when no one was using it) and let her get her bucks and kicks out. She's cute when she takes off, she's like a little fireball lol.

At the barn now, we are only allowed to let our horse loose in the arena if no one is inside. I've been wanting to do this some more because I want to get pictures of Fly running (and hard to do that in the field unless you are there at the perfect time). And plus with the lighting that the barn has at times (even at night with low light), it has potential for some seriously good images.

I think a week if I'm lucky to be back in the saddle. I'm limping right now and was really worried last night when I had sharp pain from my inner ankle. But I knew that it was the exact pain that I felt when I had my baby toes crunched by Fly 3 times last Fall. It was just a bruise and scrap, though with a toe injury it takes a lot longer to heal because you can't really put stuff on it without it rubbing off (even with a wrap around it). 

My ankle is a lot less swollen this morning and I took out a lot of the sensitivity out of it (thank god for emu oil, the most amazing stuff in the world for burns, cuts, scrapes, damaged skin, inflammation).


----------



## jaydee

I've worked on several large livery/boarding yards over the years where there were a lot of what we call DIY owners - people who rent grazing space in a shared field and rent a stable but do all of the care side of it themselves. I've always found that owners are very critical of anyone who fails to take correct action when their horse is too dominant/ignorant/disrespectful around humans by 'nipping bad behavior in the bud' so to speak. It might seem like interfering when they complain and its easy to say that they should mind their own business but when you have to go into a field to get your horse every day and just one of those horses has been allowed to treat humans exactly as it pleases you're actually at risk of getting injured by it. Bad attitudes in horses have a tendency to escalate very quickly if not dealt with.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> I think just like with humans, thoughts about our surroundings require a moment in time to process. That's the thing about being startled: you react before you think. So if a person jumped out from behind a corner dressed like a gorilla, you might jump any which way and knock into someone standing next to you even if it was the President or a police officer. That would not mean you didn't "respect" that person, it would just mean you reacted before you could think about who you were standing next to. You might also step to one side into a wall or step into a hole that you forgot was there. That's my take anyway. :smile:
> 
> Once my horse ran over the top of me, meaning no disrespect. I was blocking the path to her grain, and she really wanted to get to it. She tried to rush forward, but I was standing there and she respected me. So she backed off again, closed her eyes, and walaa, I disappeared! So she rushed forward over me with her eyes closed. Well, it was very funny and I didn't punish her but the next time she closed her eyes like that I reprimanded her and made her open them up and notice I was still there. I think her reasoning was that if she couldn't see me, maybe I wasn't there.


I see. That's the thing, when Fly knocked me over like a bowling pin, I was upset and dejected and immediately though to myself, this horse doesn't respect me. Because if she did, she wouldn't be crashing into me like that. It felt like something that would happen between Fly and I in the first few months owning her, not 15 months later. Was I wrong to think that?

So just because she knocked me over, it doesn't necessarily mean that she doesn't respect me? 

Remember last year how I used to tell you guys about how some times I would hand graze her and she would all of a sudden spook at something and come into my space? That's how I got my toes crunched on. I felt yesterday was no different because I felt that she should have taken notice and be aware of my presence. But maybe I'm completely wrong here.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Your boots don't cover this part of your leg?
> 
> ...remember a while back when I spoke about clothing and tack having a specific function? This is one of those functions that riding boots serve.


I have Ariats and they cover up my inside ankle bone and maybe an inch higher but that's it. The inside ankle bone is where my injury is, so having it in the stirrup was putting pressure on it with the boot and then stirrup.


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> She really shouldn't have been disciplined. Horses spook sometimes at the most random things, but that doesn't make them 'wrong' for doing it.
> It was definitely too late to correct her.
> She should be paying attention to you, but I think you need to work on that too.


I agree, a lesson learned for me. I just immediately thought that Fly disrespected me by barging into my space and I was upset. I shouldn't have corrected her. The good news is that my correction was short and it wasn't amped up to where I'm capable of because I was limping and was in discomfort.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> When horses are scared outside, they CLING together. When horses are scared near us, they jump ON us, in an attempt to CLING for safety.
> The more immature the horse, the more they cling...watch a mare and foal.
> 
> I am sorry that she stepped on you, but you are tough!


Oh okay. So are you saying that she was clinging onto me yesterday?


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I've worked on several large livery/boarding yards over the years where there were a lot of what we call DIY owners - people who rent grazing space in a shared field and rent a stable but do all of the care side of it themselves. I've always found that owners are very critical of anyone who fails to take correct action when their horse is too dominant/ignorant/disrespectful around humans by 'nipping bad behavior in the bud' so to speak. It might seem like interfering when they complain and its easy to say that they should mind their own business but when you have to go into a field to get your horse every day and just one of those horses has been allowed to treat humans exactly as it pleases you're actually at risk of getting injured by it. Bad attitudes in horses have a tendency to escalate very quickly if not dealt with.


I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU!!!

And this is why when I went into that one field with one of my friend boarders to clean their water out, one of the geldings pushed me with his nose really hard and I smacked him. It startled him, but when I was leaving, he followed me everywhere and back to the gate. I knew what I did was the right thing even though my friend said "what did you do that for?!!!" Do I like smacking other peoples horses? Of course not, but I'm not going to let any horse just push into me like that. Safety first. If my trainer saw it, she would have said that I did the right thing. And as much as I enjoy my friends at the barn, I will take the advice from my trainer 100% of the time over them because she has become a mentor for me over the past 4-5 months. 

Just a week ago, I saw this happen at the barn. I saw it but I pretended as if I wasn't watching it so I just observed in my peripheral vision.

One of my friends has a 3 year old colt. He's not broken in and has very little groundwork him, like under 3 months of groundwork. He doesn't have very good manners and is is very pushy and disrespectful. To simply put, like the BO and trainer both said and keep saying, he needs training and now. Not in 3 months, not in 6 months, but now.

I was putting Fly back in her herd when all I could hear in the background was someone yelling at their top of their lungs "BACK, BACK!" and constantly whipping this boy with the end of the lead. It was one of the young girls (who does chores for board) and apparently what happened was one of the student riders (15 year old girl) went into their field to catch one of the horses to ride. The colt pushed her at the gate and ended up escaping to eat grass. So this girl needed him to catch him and called to the other girl. Well she had trouble catching him but eventually she did and he didn't want to go back into the field so he was getting in her space,pushing her away with his head, swinging his HQ to her and she didn't let him so she was yelling and screaming whacking him with the end of the lead. Eventually she did manage to get him back into his herd but it was pretty ugly. 

I've said it before and I will say it again. Someone is going to get seriously killed by this colt. My friend (the owner of him) has already gotten knocked down, and pushed down by him 2 or 3 times and has had back injuries from it. But she doesn't take it seriously, she chuckles about it and just says it's okay, it's going to happen because he's just a baby. Nip it in the bud before someone gets killed by this horse.


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## Hoofpic

I have a lesson on Saturday and will most likely have to cancel it. I don't want to but people are going to ask what happened and I will just need to tell them. 

The good news is that the swelling has really come down since last night (it's been about 18 hours now and counting that I've had emu oil on the ankle non stop) and a lot less painful.

Last night I couldn't put any weight on the ankle but now I can without nearly as much sharp pain.

The part was so sensitive last night that I almost cried when I would drop emu oil on it (felt like dropping hot oil onto severe sunburn) and even just touching it was enough but I sucked it up and very lightly rubbed the oil into it. 

This morning, 80% of that sensitivity is gone. Mind you I slept with no blanket so that the oil wouldn't get rubbed off throughout the night by the blanket. But at least it's tolerable when rubbing the oil in every hour.

Thank goodness for Emu oil. This stuff is the most amazing anti-inflammatory all natural healing agent in the world. Expensive but worth it.


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## tinyliny

you can slather your leg with it, then put the whole leg in a plastic grocery bag and close the top with a rubber band. just be sure you don't cut of circulation with it.

I never felt any benefit from emu oil. no better than gel diclofenic (Voltaren) or Arnica cream.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> One of my friends has a 3 year old colt. He's not broken in and has very little groundwork him, like under 3 months of groundwork. He doesn't have very good manners and is is very pushy and disrespectful. .


 My 10 year old gelding doesn't have 3 months groundwork, in face none of our horses have more than a week. That is all that is necessary, any more is wasting time IMHO.


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## jaydee

I suppose its what you define as groundwork. My horses are dealt with on the ground every day in one way or another and whenever I'm handling them I class it as horse work.
A lot of people who only have one horse that's still not broke spend time doing groundwork of some sort with it just to do something with it. When you have a lot of horses you tend to just leave them be until you want to start riding them unless you do some sort of halter/in hand showing


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> you can slather your leg with it, then put the whole leg in a plastic grocery bag and close the top with a rubber band. just be sure you don't cut of circulation with it.
> 
> I never felt any benefit from emu oil. no better than gel diclofenic (Voltaren) or Arnica cream.


Oh I wasn't going to mention emu oil, I didn't know how many on here has ever heard of it. It's like a magic potion for me. The swelling has really come down and I woke up with no sharp pain in the ankle. I am able to walk a lot better today. 

I might try the bag out but Im worried it will take the oil off. I should be able to head back to the barn as early as tomorrow but I have a bruise on my right hip that has caused my entire right leg to be really tight. I can't lift it without extreme tightness, I might go see my chiro today because there's no way I can ride like this. Chiro will really help speed up the healing.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> My 10 year old gelding doesn't have 3 months groundwork, in face none of our horses have more than a week. That is all that is necessary, any more is wasting time IMHO.


Well I guess it comes down to how many hours and I think it depends on the horse too, with some needing more and some less.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I suppose its what you define as groundwork. My horses are dealt with on the ground every day in one way or another and whenever I'm handling them I class it as horse work.
> A lot of people who only have one horse that's still not broke spend time doing groundwork of some sort with it just to do something with it. When you have a lot of horses you tend to just leave them be until you want to start riding them unless you do some sort of halter/in hand showing


Yip, that's the most important thing! It depends on how the horse is handled on an everyday basis and this colt is not handled well at all. He's constantly running over his owner, nipping, diving for grass (because he has been taught that he dictates when and where he can graze) and the owner lets him get away with everything.

I won't go on about it because I know it's none of my business. But I still think it's just the matter of time before someone seriously gets hurt.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Yip, that's the most important thing! It depends on how the horse is handled on an everyday basis and this colt is not handled well at all. He's constantly running over his owner, nipping, diving for grass (because he has been taught that he dictates when and where he can graze) and the owner lets him get away with everything.
> 
> *I won't go on about it because I know it's none of my business*. But I still think it's just the matter of time before someone seriously gets hurt.



It is interesting how you keep acknowledging the way the other boarders handle their horses is none of your business and yet you keep posting about it.


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## PoptartShop

Sadly, there's really nothing you can do to make someone discipline their horse. They have to do it themselves, it's not something you can control.
I see some things at my barn, & I'm like...let me just stay out of it, I can't control it. Yeah it sucks seeing things sometimes, but not your circus not your monkeys!


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## Rainaisabelle

Whinnie said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yip, that's the most important thing! It depends on how the horse is handled on an everyday basis and this colt is not handled well at all. He's constantly running over his owner, nipping, diving for grass (because he has been taught that he dictates when and where he can graze) and the owner lets him get away with everything.
> 
> *I won't go on about it because I know it's none of my business*. But I still think it's just the matter of time before someone seriously gets hurt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is interesting how you keep acknowledging the way the other boarders handle their horses is none of your business and yet you keep posting about it.
Click to expand...

Yep. I'd like to also point out majority of all the things your "friends" are struggling with you did as well.


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Sadly, there's really nothing you can do to make someone discipline their horse. They have to do it themselves, it's not something you can control.
> I see some things at my barn, & I'm like...let me just stay out of it, I can't control it. Yeah it sucks seeing things sometimes, but not your circus not your monkeys!


I know and that is okay.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Whinnie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yip, that's the most important thing! It depends on how the horse is handled on an everyday basis and this colt is not handled well at all. He's constantly running over his owner, nipping, diving for grass (because he has been taught that he dictates when and where he can graze) and the owner lets him get away with everything.
> 
> *I won't go on about it because I know it's none of my business*. But I still think it's just the matter of time before someone seriously gets hurt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is interesting how you keep acknowledging the way the other boarders handle their horses is none of your business and yet you keep posting about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep. I'd like to also point out majority of all the things your "friends" are struggling with you did as well.
Click to expand...

Which I fully admit to and Im not ashamed about it.


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## bsms

Hoofpic said:


> Well I guess it comes down to how many hours and I think it depends on the horse too, with some needing more and some less.


What I see being promoted by NH trainers is the idea that one does groundwork to develop things like "trust", "respect", thus "bonding". I personally think it too often DELAYS those things.

Why?

_"If your teacher tells you that you have horse sense, consider it a compliment. People with horse sense are smart and practical and can be counted on to make good decisions....

...Definitions of horse sense: sound practical judgment"

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/horse%20sense

"horse sense

Good sense and shrewdness : horse sense needed before taking on something like that (1832+)"

Horse sense | Define Horse sense at Dictionary.com

_People may have become dumber, but horses haven't. Just because you can make them obey from the ground in a round pen doesn't mean you can do squat all in the open, when they have 4 feet on the ground and you can't whip them safely. The horse learns trust (IMHO) the way a human does - when the other being demonstrates good judgment & concern for your well-being in the real world. And the old military joke that 'bonding comes from shared misery' has its roots in the truth - bonding comes from overcoming challenges together, and overcoming those challenges can involve a certain amount of misery.

*It is hard to fool a horse.* I don't know how anyone can learn to ride and be a "strong leader" without leaving the round pen and riding. 

Bandit went past every garbage can today - long his big bugaboo - not cheerfully, but without a darting snake neck, giving the evil eye to them, or prancing sideways. Why? Because I've been proven right about every trash can we have met, and he is starting to realize that if I say he can go...he can go! The same for a rubber tire some butt-head left in the desert next to the trail today. And the community water tank whose pump let out a loud squeal when it turned on. Well...we did get in a little prancing on that one! Briefly.

I don't know how many times I've slowly worked him past something different on a slack rein, or dismounted and taken the time to show him I was right. Maybe 250, maybe 300, maybe more. The better my track record gets, the less he questions my judgment. But I have to demonstrate judgment before he can learn that I have it!

And, of course, a more experienced and confident rider can teach it much faster. I've needed longer because of MY inabilities, not because the horse needs that much time! A good rider might do in a week what took me a year. Oh well. The only way *I* can become an experienced rider is...experience!

Horse sense. I think horses, at some level, eventually figure out the person who round pens them endlessly is, deep down, scared of riding them. And that either scares them too, or convinces them their rider is worthless - the opposite of trust and bonding.

That all has nothing to do with someone who does regular longe work to teach a certain movement or balance or command or some other thing. Using a longe line or a round pen to teach a specific item is one thing. Doing it to establish trust or develop a bond is entirely different. IMHO.



Hoofpic said:


> ...He's constantly running over his owner, nipping, diving for grass (because he has been taught that he dictates when and where he can graze) and the owner lets him get away with everything...


That would not take long at all for a competent rider/horseman to correct. Assuming the horse has been around someone competent during its training, it might take minutes to correct. But as long as the owner accepts it, it will continue. Because it can.


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## greentree

I firmly believe Natural Horsemanship has very little to do with training the horse. It is mostly about giving timid people enough confidence to feel like a leader. It is sold as training the horse, but the horse cannot be fooled.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I know a young gal who takes IMO, an unnecessarily firm approach with her mare. The mare is 21 yo, former ranch horse. I love that horse to death and would buy her in an instant. 

When I ride her (per her busy owner’s request) that mare gives herself over completely. My geldings will give me everything except their dignity; this mare is willing to give her rider the whole kit and caboodle. She is a wonderful horse to ride. 

Unfortunately, her owner uses words like; stubborn, lazy, disrespectful, unpredictable to describe the old gal (which is likewise assigning human motives and emotions). It leaves me thinking “are we riding the same horse?”. 

The owner is a novice in both riding and ownership and has really only ridden her horse a handful of times. (The mare was rescued from a slaughter house with a baby, who the gal is far more interested in.)

Both her owner and myself use forms of “Natural Horsemanship” but with very different approaching attitudes and therefore, very different results. 

There is a fine line between fear and a healthy respect between horse and human or human and horse (yes, I believe it has to go both ways). Experience alone doesn't always refine that balance and there is more to it than any one person can teach.


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> What I see being promoted by NH trainers is the idea that one does groundwork to develop things like "trust", "respect", thus "bonding". I personally think it too often DELAYS those things.
> 
> Why?
> 
> _"If your teacher tells you that you have horse sense, consider it a compliment. People with horse sense are smart and practical and can be counted on to make good decisions....
> 
> ...Definitions of horse sense: sound practical judgment"
> 
> https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/horse%20sense
> 
> "horse sense
> 
> Good sense and shrewdness : horse sense needed before taking on something like that (1832+)"
> 
> Horse sense | Define Horse sense at Dictionary.com_


_

That's a great quote thank you bsms. I really like horse sense and I still want a custom plate on my car, HORSENS would be one of my top picks 

_


> People may have become dumber, but horses haven't. Just because you can make them obey from the ground in a round pen doesn't mean you can do squat all in the open, when they have 4 feet on the ground and you can't whip them safely. The horse learns trust (IMHO) the way a human does - when the other being demonstrates good judgment & concern for your well-being in the real world. And the old military joke that 'bonding comes from shared misery' has its roots in the truth - bonding comes from overcoming challenges together, and overcoming those challenges can involve a certain amount of misery.
> 
> *It is hard to fool a horse.* I don't know how anyone can learn to ride and be a "strong leader" without leaving the round pen and riding.


IMO outside of the roundpen is a true testament to how things are between the horse and it's owner/handler. Smaller areas make it easier to mask flaws and problem areas IMO.



> That all has nothing to do with someone who does regular longe work to teach a certain movement or balance or command or some other thing. Using a longe line or a round pen to teach a specific item is one thing. Doing it to establish trust or develop a bond is entirely different. IMHO.


I will admit that longing or round penning a horse isn't the savior of all problems, but I do believe that it is a critical part especially with a younger horse. Then the rest of the respect can be earned through handling.

I know at the old barn, I often had boarders tell me that I should have longed Fly the very first day that I got her because it's the very first thing that they do when they get a new horse. But I didn't. I let Fly settle into her new home for a good 4 days with us just hanging out before I took her into the barn to brush her. Then I started taking her into the arena to lead her around, with basic whoa's and walk on's. I did this for about a week and I didn't longe her until about 2 weeks later when I had my very first lesson with my trainer at the time. Because at this time, Fly was in my space, pushing me around, being disprespectful, turning her butt to me and other people, etc. 



> That would not take long at all for a competent rider/horseman to correct. Assuming the horse has been around someone competent during its training, it might take minutes to correct. But as long as the owner accepts it, it will continue. Because it can.


I agree, but like the saying goes, it's 10 times harder to re-train a horse from past bad habits than to just nip them in the bud in the first place. 

There is one incredibly valuable lesson that I have learned as time as gone on. I no longer take the time that I spend with Fly for granted. It was when I heard the saying "Horses are always learning, they learn something each second that you handle them". That is when I really started to take notice in what I do with Fly. I use to let her get away with anything and everything because I didn't acknowledge just how true it is that horses are learning every second that we handle them.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I use to let her get away with anything and everything because I didn't acknowledge just how true it is that horses are learning every second that we handle them.



However, your issue now is that you are correcting the mare too frequently when it is you yourself who was at fault or not within the 3 second rule. Often a correction is better made quietly without making a big deal out of it, such as calmly putting a horse back in the spot he walked off of when asked to ground tie or strategically placing your elbow where a nippy horse will run into it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> However, your issue now is that you are correcting the mare too frequently when it is you yourself who was at fault or not within the 3 second rule. Often a correction is better made quietly without making a big deal out of it, such as calmly putting a horse back in the spot he walked off of when asked to ground tie or strategically placing your elbow where a nippy horse will run into it.


Well, two days ago was a learning experience for me. I took Fly knocking me over as disrespect, which it obviously wasn't, but I didn't know. Now I know moving forward. That was the only time that I can think of over the past few months where I corrected her and I shouldn't have, so that is the good news.


----------



## Greenmeadows

A spooked horse is just as dangerous as a disrespectful horse, if not more so. If Fly spooked, corrections still need to be made, but not in the form of punishment, IMO. Like some of the other posts stated, I would work her around whatever things cause her to be nervous. She needs to learn how to not react (even if it is only occasionally), and to think about what you are doing. Try doing things like backing if you feel she might spook, that way she will have her attention on you before spooking, and thus preventing a spook in the first place. It would not be punishment, but rather a correction. The main thing is be safe! 
I hope your ankle feels better soon!


----------



## Prairie

Actually you have a habit of assuming that the mare is at fault when it was you......think about walking over the bridge with you in her way and facing backwards like a predator, not being able to get her past the trailer because you made the mistake of riding with other greenies, putting on the bridle with your finger in the wrong place to open her mouth, and so on. 


The reality is horses are dangerous and even the calmest babysitter can spook or act up. That's why it's up to the handler to know exactly where that horse is at all times, what is happening in the environment, and to anticipate how the horse may react. A spooked horse is worrying about getting away from the horse eating monster, not where you are. That's why it's the handler who has to control the situation and know where that horse will jump or head if spooked, at all times.


----------



## Hoofpic

As much as I was hoping and wanting to go to the barn today, I think I'm best off allowing another day until tomorrow. This will be the first time ever that I will go 3 days without seeing Fly. The swelling has really come down and the discoloring for the bruise has finally started to show through this morning. 

I can walk without any discomfort, but I get sharp pains when I go awhile without putting any weight on the foot (like when I wake up). I am curious if I will be able to get my foot into my shoe tomorrow. I feel that I can, but I don't want any set backs. The good news is that all the sensitivity from the ankle is gone (thank you emu oil).

I was going to try today but I felt I should wait another day. It will most likely be my runner and not my riding boot since the runner has softer cushioning and the shoe doesn't come up as high.

I'm guessing it will be at least a week before I can actually ride again. Putting my foot in the stirrup will aggravate it. It sucks because I was really hoping that I didn't have to tell anyone at the barn what happened but it looks like I'm going to have to since I will be cancelling my lesson for this Saturday.

It sucks because that means that I will go some time without riding and Fly doesn't get exercise. Any suggestions on (aside from walks and longing), how else I can get Fly exercise for the time being? I really don't want to longe Fly unless I have to.


----------



## Hoofpic

Greenmeadows said:


> A spooked horse is just as dangerous as a disrespectful horse, if not more so. If Fly spooked, corrections still need to be made, but not in the form of punishment, IMO. Like some of the other posts stated, I would work her around whatever things cause her to be nervous. She needs to learn how to not react (even if it is only occasionally), and to think about what you are doing. Try doing things like backing if you feel she might spook, that way she will have her attention on you before spooking, and thus preventing a spook in the first place. It would not be punishment, but rather a correction. The main thing is be safe!
> I hope your ankle feels better soon!


Well afterwards, I did work with Fly in getting used to the white paper (that went flying towards her) and she seemed a lot better. But yes, for now on I will be taking extra precaution when moving her in and out of the arena, barn etc. A lot less slack in the lead and be more aware on what she is focusing on and if she does spook again, which direction she would be going.

So that means for now on, when we enter the arena, barn etc, no more of her sniffing buckets.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Actually you have a habit of assuming that the mare is at fault when it was you......think about walking over the bridge with you in her way and facing backwards like a predator, not being able to get her past the trailer because you made the mistake of riding with other greenies, putting on the bridle with your finger in the wrong place to open her mouth, and so on.
> 
> 
> The reality is horses are dangerous and even the calmest babysitter can spook or act up. That's why it's up to the handler to know exactly where that horse is at all times, what is happening in the environment, and to anticipate how the horse may react. A spooked horse is worrying about getting away from the horse eating monster, not where you are. That's why it's the handler who has to control the situation and know where that horse will jump or head if spooked, at all times.


Im aware that it was my fault and I have learned from it. It is a learning experience for me moving forward.

I will be much more aware when I head back to the barn. Horses can spook at any given time and I need to be able dictate the situation if it happens.


----------



## jenkat86

Just because you have stirrups doesn't mean you have to use them.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Just because you have stirrups doesn't mean you have to use them.


I know, but I don't like trotting Fly at a sitting trot cause it's harder on their backs. I guess I could still ride her at a walk.


----------



## Hoofpic

Which is your guy's favorite and why?


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> jenkat86 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you have stirrups doesn't mean you have to use them.
> 
> 
> 
> I know, but I don't like trotting Fly at a sitting trot cause it's harder on their backs. I guess I could still ride her at a walk.
Click to expand...

It's only hard on their backs if you don't do it right


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I know, but I don't like trotting Fly at a sitting trot cause it's harder on their backs. I guess I could still ride her at a walk.


I think you may be misinformed about this.


----------



## Tazzie

A soft rider sitting a trot is worlds better than a hard rider posting the trot. It's all in what you know and how you can relax your hips to allow them to move with the horse instead of against them.

And you CAN post without stirrups. Sure, it's a heck of a lot harder, but your abs will feel it. Whenever I ride bareback I always post the trot until the back is warmed up.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> It's only hard on their backs if you don't do it right


True but I find it less comfy too at a sitting trot.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, you really need to stop assuming that our suggestions are hard on the horse, won't work, or you can't do them. We really do know what we're talking about and our suggestions are based on many decades of experience.


FYI, most western rides don't post the trot and ride it sitting. Pull up a few dressage tests to see a rider sitting the trot on a horse who is doing more than a western jog. 


I'm pretty sure most of us don't stay away from the barn just because our foot hurts----at least here, I have to get out to feed, clean stalls, water, and make sure everybody hasn't done something stupid. There's no such thing as a day off or a sick day!


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> A soft rider sitting a trot is worlds better than a hard rider posting the trot. It's all in what you know and how you can relax your hips to allow them to move with the horse instead of against them.
> 
> And you CAN post without stirrups. Sure, it's a heck of a lot harder, but your abs will feel it. Whenever I ride bareback I always post the trot until the back is warmed up.


I've done a bit of post trot without stirrups and also just one foot in the stirrup. It's really hard on the legs lol. I personally don't enjoy it very much but I see a use for it.


----------



## Prairie

LOL, I'm sure most riders don't "enjoy" posting without stirrups, but it's the best way to develop the muscles so you can post correctly plus develop the core which is the key to executing most cues. If your legs are sore after posting without stirrups or with just one stirrup, you need to work on developing their muscles out of the saddle---join a gym so you can learn the exercises you need to work the muscles needed for riding correctly.


----------



## Tazzie

It should be hard. You don't have a piece of metal or something to brace your foot against.

I can tell ya right now, a bruised foot wouldn't be keeping me from riding. I'd just be starting no stirrup November earlier.


----------



## jenkat86

Talk about making your muscles work...

My right leg is weaker than my left. My trainer made me trot my horse in 2-point, in a cutting saddle, without reins...all steering had to be done with my legs. I wanted to cry the whole time. 

That's just one of the exercises he has me do, and the worse one at that...but my leg is stronger and I have way better balance! 

Try not to limit yourself so much, Hoofpic.


----------



## Prairie

Tazzie said:


> I'd just be starting no stirrup November earlier.



This just made me laugh since I've gone gaited in my old age----no stirrups are now NBD since no posting unless I miscue our TWH mare:sad: who has 8 gears to play with including a trot. However, I do often ride bareback to work on balance and being in synch with her gaits so I'm not dependent on that hunk of leather to keep my seat.


----------



## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


>


The first is definitely my favorite. If I didn't already have a personalized plate I might steal the idea - I like it that much. To me, it's the best part of riding: grab mane, move forward, and have a blast!

Second one is also cute and would likely be more recognizable to non-horsey people.


----------



## PoptartShop

Yes...using no stirrups is the best way to learn how to keep your heels down and to improve your form. Trotting with no stirrups can suck, yes, but that's to be expected.
If your foot hurts...I agree with @Tazzie, might as well start early. LOL, it's good practice.

As for the sitting trot hurting the horse...? I'm confused as to where you got that information from?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> LOL, I'm sure most riders don't "enjoy" posting without stirrups, but it's the best way to develop the muscles so you can post correctly plus develop the core which is the key to executing most cues. If your legs are sore after posting without stirrups or with just one stirrup, you need to work on developing their muscles out of the saddle---join a gym so you can learn the exercises you need to work the muscles needed for riding correctly.


I have chicken legs and would love to build my leg muscles but I dont want to gain anymore weight because Im already on the brink of being heavy enough for Fly.


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I have chicken legs and would love to build my leg muscles but I dont want to gain anymore weight because Im already on the brink of being heavy enough for Fly.


A properly muscled person will better be able to control how they ride a horse, in theory. If your legs have proper muscling, and are able to help keep you in balance, the added weight would be barely noticeable to Fly.

Again, it goes back to an unfit person who is a twig can do A LOT more damage on a horse than a person is overweight but can ride lightly.

And hasn't everyone already gone round and round on the weight issue?? I feel that topic has been beat to death.

You'll be doing Fly a BIG favor if YOU can get yourself into proper riding shape so YOU can be better balanced and more in motion with the horse. There is a REASON that riders are encouraged to do exercises off the horse to gain more fitness and more body control. You gaining weight from muscle would NOT be a bad thing.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> It should be hard. You don't have a piece of metal or something to brace your foot against.
> 
> I can tell ya right now, a bruised foot wouldn't be keeping me from riding. I'd just be starting no stirrup November earlier.


Well my right leg is still tight (alot better than on Monday and having one chiro visit so far). Going for another chiro later today.

If it wasnt for this, I wouldnt mind doing some post trot with feet out of the stirrups.

I just dont want any setbacks. Im amazed that Im fully walking 4 days later, seeing how Monday I was in a lot of pain.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I have chicken legs and would love to build my leg muscles but I dont want to gain anymore weight because Im already on the brink of being heavy enough for Fly.


I know it's been told to you about 100 times that the weight the horse is carrying isn't as important as to HOW it's carried. If you have low muscle tone then your body control will not be as good as someone with more muscle tone. Therefore the heavier person, with more muscle will be easier to carry than the lighter person flopping around BECAUSE they can control their body.

You could do so much more and improve so much faster if you would quit over thinking everything.
@Tazzie I didn't read your response before I wrote mine.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Try not to limit yourself so much, Hoofpic.


I dont want to either. I know that I need become more flexible in my hips and legs and seeing how I maybe have 6 weeks of riding left for this year before winter comes, I have a lot of time until next Spring to get myself in better shape. That is my goal.

I do still have a balance board but I havent used it as much as I should be.

I need to come up with a workout plan for my legs and core. Maybe I should get in touch with a personal trainer?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Tazzie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd just be starting no stirrup November earlier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This just made me laugh since I've gone gaited in my old age----no stirrups are now NBD since no posting unless I miscue our TWH mare
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who has 8 gears to play with including a trot. However, I do often ride bareback to work on balance and being in synch with her gaits so I'm not dependent on that hunk of leather to keep my seat.
Click to expand...

I would like to get there as well, but one step at a time.


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first is definitely my favorite. If I didn't already have a personalized plate I might steal the idea - I like it that much. To me, it's the best part of riding: grab mane, move forward, and have a blast!
> 
> Second one is also cute and would likely be more recognizable to non-horsey people.
Click to expand...

GRBMANE is my fav as well. I would want mystery to it. 

But what's ironic is that I never grab the mane when riding. Is that bad?

I like HOOFPIC as well because I bet you most non horsey people have no idea what a hoofpic is.


----------



## carshon

Hoofpic - it seems that you have a lot of disposable income to use for personal trainers, different trainers etc,

I think this is fantastic but I think you may want to consider building up your core and legs by riding more and not on a trainer. Ride every day, ride bareback, ride without stirrups.

There is no way to get into riding shape without riding. Try changing how you ride, try riding in an English saddle, try riding on a trail.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Yes...using no stirrups is the best way to learn how to keep your heels down and to improve your form. Trotting with no stirrups can suck, yes, but that's to be expected.
> If your foot hurts...I agree with @Tazzie, might as well start early. LOL, it's good practice.
> 
> As for the sitting trot hurting the horse...? I'm confused as to where you got that information from?


Not sure who told me (maybe I just misunderstood them), but I thought I was told that sitting trot on a horse is much harder on their backs. Similar to us running with a backpack on and having it bounce up and down.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have chicken legs and would love to build my leg muscles but I dont want to gain anymore weight because Im already on the brink of being heavy enough for Fly.
> 
> 
> 
> A properly muscled person will better be able to control how they ride a horse, in theory. If your legs have proper muscling, and are able to help keep you in balance, the added weight would be barely noticeable to Fly.
> 
> Again, it goes back to an unfit person who is a twig can do A LOT more damage on a horse than a person is overweight but can ride lightly.
> 
> And hasn't everyone already gone round and round on the weight issue?? I feel that topic has been beat to death.
> 
> You'll be doing Fly a BIG favor if YOU can get yourself into proper riding shape so YOU can be better balanced and more in motion with the horse. There is a REASON that riders are encouraged to do exercises off the horse to gain more fitness and more body control. You gaining weight from muscle would NOT be a bad thing.
Click to expand...

You guys have convinced me. Do leg excersizes to get my legs and core stronger.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have chicken legs and would love to build my leg muscles but I dont want to gain anymore weight because Im already on the brink of being heavy enough for Fly.
> 
> 
> 
> I know it's been told to you about 100 times that the weight the horse is carrying isn't as important as to HOW it's carried. If you have low muscle tone then your body control will not be as good as someone with more muscle tone. Therefore the heavier person, with more muscle will be easier to carry than the lighter person flopping around BECAUSE they can control their body.
> 
> You could do so much more and improve so much faster if you would quit over thinking everything.
> @Tazzie I didn't read your response before I wrote mine.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I dont mean to be overthinking it.
I understand now.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Sorry, I dont mean to be overthinking it.
> I understand now.


No need to apologize. I certainly didn't mean all that in a snarky way. I just hate to see someone's potential get smothered out because they just didn't know any better.


----------



## Prairie

Riding does not have to stop because it's winter----you just put on another layer of clothing to stay warm and wear heavier socks and gloves. I rode out in all weather conditions 365 days/per year to check our cattle herd for many years, sometimes with DD tagging along when she was but a tot. Hubby and I still ride in the winter unless we've had an ice storm and the footing is too dangerous......and we're over twice your age.


----------



## Golden Horse

Heck Prairie, that is why I board Fergie, I really don't fancy riding out in -30* C, whatever that is in your weird figures, but it is fine in the arena. It stays good under foot, add thermal layers and a good goosedown jacket and you are good to go all winter. The only time lessons are cancelled, and riding discouraged, is when we have the extreme cold warnings out, danger of frostbite of exposed skin in 10 minutes...


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic has an area to ride in so he should be able to do that too.


No indoor arenas in this area, so we ride in the shelter belts to get out of the wind. If there's little wind and the sun is shining, it's fun to get outside and ride. This winter, I want to try skijoring if we get enough snow! That -30*C is -22* F---Burr!


----------



## Tazzie

I do a lot of yoga and pilates when NOT on my horse. Least I did. Need to get back into it. But I wanted my overall fitness to increase. I did a lot of high intensity interval training, zumba, etc. Didn't need a personal trainer. Just needed motivation and youtube. You don't HAVE to pay for someone. Though, I'd start by riding as much as you possibly can. I DO give days off for the horse (some intentional, some because I'm married with kids and I can't always get out to ride), but you can start ramping up how often you ride.

As for the tightness, do some good stretching. I'm sure you had PE class where you learned how to properly stretch your legs out.

And why on Earth would you quit riding in the winter?! Granted, Northern Kentucky doesn't get nearly as cold as Canada, but we also aren't blessed with an indoor arena like you have. Just gotta buck up and have the motivation to go out there!


----------



## Hoofpic

I went to the barn today and the 3 days that I missed not being there, felt like 3 weeks. It's amazing how being at the barn becomes such a big part of your everyday life. Over the past 3 days, I felt that I needed to be at the barn. It didn't feel right not being there. I really missed being around horses. It was sure a great feeling to see Fly again.

The good news is that I was able to wear a sock and even my riding boot on my bruised ankle just fine. No discomfort and I was able to walk fine, all thanks to two things, 2 chiro adjustments and emu oil (a lot of it too). After my second chiro adjustment this afternoon, my leg feels SO MUCH better. It's not nearly as tight and it's a relief.

Only two of my friends and my trainer knows what happened. My trainer is back tomorrow from vacation, so I'm sure she will ask me more on what happened, even though I told her today. BO doesn't know about it. I talked to him for over an hour today and I was going to tell him, but I re-considered. I felt no need to since I am recovering okay.

I got new stirrups today! I felt I had to retire the ones I've been using since May, they're just too big with my new riding boots. And what's been happening is when I'm riding, my feet will fall into the stirrups so that eventually the stirrup will be right in the back of my feet, almost 2/3 of my foot in slid through it and it puts pressure on the front part of my ankles and then causes me to lean forward. I mentioned this problem to my trainer about a few weeks ago and she said that she felt I didn't need smaller stirrups but I disagreed. She has a firm and strong belief that it's all about the rider and not so much the gear. But IMO, I think there has to be a balance of the two. 

I find that in order to lean back and keep the heels down, you need to keep the stirrup right below your toes. 

Also I went with much slimmer ones, they're noticably lighter as well and just less clunky. I should have gone with these ones in the first place. Buying big chunky stirrups was a huge mistake for a beginner rider like me.

This is what I've been riding in since May. Remember, I wore my old work boots in these, so you can only imagine how huge these stirrups are. And you guys have seen pics of how big my work boots are when I rode in them.










And switching to these.










I will try them out tomorrow with my left foot when riding Fly. The owner at the store said that if they're too small, I can switch them out tomorrow for one size larger. But after trying them on in the store, we are both confident it will be a perfect fit and I will still be able to put in and take out my feet easily from them.


----------



## Hoofpic

Because my saddle has the texas twist in them, I asked the owner if I would lose the twist in them when replacing the stirrups and she said no. She showed me exactly how to go about swapping the stirrups and I'm confident I can do it. She says if I have any problems, to bring the saddle and new stirrups to her tomorrow and she will do it for me at no charge.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> No need to apologize. I certainly didn't mean all that in a snarky way. I just hate to see someone's potential get smothered out because they just didn't know any better.


I appreciate all the advice on here. I certainly would like to hit my potential as well, and I will do anything to increase my chances. I think having the winter to build up my core and leg strength will be key moving forward. I want to wow my BO and trainer come next Spring.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Riding does not have to stop because it's winter----you just put on another layer of clothing to stay warm and wear heavier socks and gloves. I rode out in all weather conditions 365 days/per year to check our cattle herd for many years, sometimes with DD tagging along when she was but a tot. Hubby and I still ride in the winter unless we've had an ice storm and the footing is too dangerous......and we're over twice your age.


That's true and I don't want to stop during the winter but I know it will be cut back (of course it all depends on what kind of winter mother nature gives us). The general rule at our barn is, anything colder than -15C (with wind chill) and it's too cold to ride. It will be my very first winter riding so I am looking forward to the experience.


----------



## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> Hoofpic - it seems that you have a lot of disposable income to use for personal trainers, different trainers etc,
> 
> I think this is fantastic but I think you may want to consider building up your core and legs by riding more and not on a trainer. Ride every day, ride bareback, ride without stirrups.
> 
> There is no way to get into riding shape without riding. Try changing how you ride, try riding in an English saddle, try riding on a trail.





Tazzie said:


> I do a lot of yoga and pilates when NOT on my horse. Least I did. Need to get back into it. But I wanted my overall fitness to increase. I did a lot of high intensity interval training, zumba, etc. Didn't need a personal trainer. Just needed motivation and youtube. You don't HAVE to pay for someone. Though, I'd start by riding as much as you possibly can. I DO give days off for the horse (some intentional, some because I'm married with kids and I can't always get out to ride), but you can start ramping up how often you ride.
> 
> As for the tightness, do some good stretching. I'm sure you had PE class where you learned how to properly stretch your legs out.
> 
> And why on Earth would you quit riding in the winter?! Granted, Northern Kentucky doesn't get nearly as cold as Canada, but we also aren't blessed with an indoor arena like you have. Just gotta buck up and have the motivation to go out there!


I really would rather not get a trainer to be honest with you. I just need to come up with a regime on how to get my core and legs stronger, write it up and stick with it (whether I do it everyday or whatever), all throughout the winter and into next year and the very least.

I would love to ride in an English saddle (or even a Western endurance), but I don't need a new saddle just yet. A big expense that I would like to avoid if possible. Plus I've spent a lot on just my cinch and pad and I couldn't use that on an English saddle. So if I get another saddle down the road, chances are it will be a Western Endurance. Those are nice!

It depends on how bad our winter will be this year. Sometimes we can get stretches over months where it's so cold that no one rides at all. Last year we didn't have much of a winter and living 35 years here in Calgary, it was easily the warmest, lightest winter I've seen in this city. But then, the winter before was easily one of the worst (if not the worst) winter ever.

I got a bit lucky this year, with the weather being so warm even this past March, I was able to get back in the saddle as early as March of this year. Usually, we get snow until April and May.


----------



## EliRose

But you have an indoor . . . ?


----------



## Hoofpic

Yes but not heated.


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

I ride throughout the winter at the barn I board at with a non-heated indoor. After about 10 minutes, I'm not cold at all. Even when I ride outside when it's 20F plus wind chill, once I get going, I'm totally fine =).

Just make sure you give Fly a good warm up in the winter to warm up her muscles well, and put on an extra layer if you're worried about being cold when you ride.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I do a lot of yoga and pilates when NOT on my horse. Least I did. Need to get back into it. But I wanted my overall fitness to increase. I did a lot of high intensity interval training, zumba, etc. Didn't need a personal trainer. Just needed motivation and youtube. You don't HAVE to pay for someone. Though, I'd start by riding as much as you possibly can. I DO give days off for the horse (some intentional, some because I'm married with kids and I can't always get out to ride), but you can start ramping up how often you ride.
> 
> As for the tightness, do some good stretching. I'm sure you had PE class where you learned how to properly stretch your legs out.
> 
> And why on Earth would you quit riding in the winter?! Granted, Northern Kentucky doesn't get nearly as cold as Canada, but we also aren't blessed with an indoor arena like you have. Just gotta buck up and have the motivation to go out there!


I have heard good things about Zumba.

I will hit up Youtube some more on building up my core and legs. Thanks


----------



## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> I ride throughout the winter at the barn I board at with a non-heated indoor. After about 10 minutes, I'm not cold at all. Even when I ride outside when it's 20F plus wind chill, once I get going, I'm totally fine =).
> 
> Just make sure you give Fly a good warm up in the winter to warm up her muscles well, and put on an extra layer if you're worried about being cold when you ride.


Thanks. What is the best way to warm her up in the Winter? Just do the same that Im currently doing but extend the length of time doing it?

Last Winter, Fly sat the entire Winter and she got out of shape and I never want to do that again because its so much work just to get them back into shape when the spring hits.


----------



## updownrider

hoofpic said:


> I got new stirrups today! I felt I had to retire the ones I've been using since May, they're just too big with my new riding boots. And what's been happening is when I'm riding, my feet will fall into the stirrups so that eventually the stirrup will be right in the back of my feet, almost 2/3 of my foot in slid through it and it puts pressure on the front part of my ankles and then causes me to lean forward. I mentioned this problem to my trainer about a few weeks ago and she said that she felt I didn't need smaller stirrups but I disagreed. She has a firm and strong belief that it's all about the rider and not so much the gear. But IMO, I think there has to be a balance of the two.
> I find that in order to lean back and keep the heels down, you need to keep the stirrup right below your toes.


Why are you leaning back and letting your foot slide through your stirrup? That sounds like your are bracing and stiff, waiting for Fly to be naughty. Is that what your trainer told you to do or is it something you read you should do on the Internet?

You had a very nice position the last time I saw pictures or a video. Do not change it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Im going to bring my saddle into the store tomorrow. I rode with the new stirrups today and I feel theyre one size too small.

I can't slip my foot in and out of them as easily as the big chunky ones, but also no more sliding of my foot when in the stirrup.

What is the best way to store my saddle in my trunk for the rest of today until tomorrow morning when I take it to the store?


----------



## Hoofpic

updownrider said:


> Why are you leaning back and letting your foot slide through your stirrup? That sounds like your are bracing and stiff, waiting for Fly to be naughty. Is that what your trainer told you to do or is it something you read you should do on the Internet?
> 
> You had a very nice position the last time I saw pictures or a video. Do not change it.


Letting my feet slide through the stirrups is 100% unintentional. With the big chunky stirrups, I find that my feet fall into them too deep as I ride. Next thing you know, 2/3 of my foot is in it and the stirrup is literally pressed right up against the front part of my ankle, causing me to lean forward.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Not sure who told me (maybe I just misunderstood them), but I thought I was told that sitting trot on a horse is much harder on their backs. Similar to us running with a backpack on and having it bounce up and down.


If you're bouncing on their back you're doing it wrong. Your seat should match the horse's movement, which will prevent bouncing. A backpack should be snug so it doesn't bounce...same concept.

As for winter riding all you need to do is warm the bit first & not let your horse get too sweaty.


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## Tazzie

if you're on Facebook, there are fitness pages for riders. I'm in one called Fit For Dressage, though I need to get more active on it. It's an accountability page. You do daily check ins saying what all you did today. Can include how you ate as well.

As for a heated indoor.... I've NEVER ridden in a heated indoor. I grew up in Western Michigan, and the only thing heated in that barn was the office. I'd CHOOSE to go ride out in the snow too. But riding rarely stopped. The trouble for me would be could my little Stratus (first car) or little Sonoma (rear wheel drive truck) make it out there. I've heard mixed things about a heated barn/indoor, and when we build, we won't have them.

For warming up Fly, I'd just be doing a good amount of stretching in warm up. Get a lot of stretching in walk before moving to trot and so on.

Zumba is great. You look like a total fool sometimes, so you can add belly laughter to it. But it'll kick your butt. Planks are also a good, quick exercise to work core muscles and body awareness.

As for stirrups, until I bought Izzie I rode in whatever saddle/stirrup iron combo that went with the horse. I rode in MASSIVE saddles for me (I'm 5'2" and in high school I weighed about 100 lbs soaking wet). Irons were also huge. But you learned how to keep your position no matter what you sat on, how to keep just enough weight in your heels to not allow your foot to slide forward (only way your foot is able to slide forward in the stirrups are if your heels are coming up), and how to move with the horse no matter what. Period. It's a valuable lesson, and buying new thing after new thing may leave you with disappointment and a dwindling bank account.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> I find that in order to lean back and keep the heels down, you need to keep the stirrup right below your toes.
> 
> Buying big chunky stirrups was a huge mistake for a beginner rider like me.
> 
> Letting my feet slide through the stirrups is 100% unintentional. With the big chunky stirrups, I find that my feet fall into them too deep as I ride. Next thing you know, 2/3 of my foot is in it and the stirrup is literally pressed right up against the front part of my ankle, causing me to lean forward.


I think you need to speak to your instructor about stirrup position vs leg position vs balance in your lesson, as I think her being able to show you will help more than anything someone can write about online. I don't want to see you get hung up on the _type_ of stirrup making such a difference in your riding position right now.

I ride in stirrups that look like this: 


















While I normally ride with my balance on the ball of my foot, depending on the horse and the circumstance, I will ride with them in a home position (in other words, jammed quite far in).. and the stirrup being there does not make me lean forward.

I know this pic is somewhat hard to see detail in because my half chap, shoe, and the stirrup are all black, but you can get the idea:











My heel isn't super low because I ride with very long stirrups, but you can see the deep position is not _making_ me lean forward.

I suspect your foot is creeping forward because you are either bracing against the stirrups and/or your weight isn't dropping through your seat into your heel.. but that is something your instructor will be able to help you with.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure who told me (maybe I just misunderstood them), but I thought I was told that sitting trot on a horse is much harder on their backs. Similar to us running with a backpack on and having it bounce up and down.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're bouncing on their back you're doing it wrong. Your seat should match the horse's movement, which will prevent bouncing. A backpack should be snug so it doesn't bounce...same concept.
> 
> As for winter riding all you need to do is warm the bit first & not let your horse get too sweaty.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. I don't bounce on Fly's back when doing a sitting trot, but I find post troting more comfortable. It's funny because when I first was taught to post, I didn't care for it at all.

Thanks for bringing up, heated up bits for the winter. Always a good reminder.


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## bsms

I tend to like the "home" position. Many do not. In any case, it does not affect my foot slipping forward:








​ 







​ 
Old picture of Mia & I when Mia was getting spooky about a moving van ahead:










The key for me is letting my weight flow uninterrupted into my heels.

FWIW, Larry Trocha:








​ 
Shawn Flarida:








​ 
I tend to lean forward because I want to lean forward, not because the stirrups affect me.​


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> if you're on Facebook, there are fitness pages for riders. I'm in one called Fit For Dressage, though I need to get more active on it. It's an accountability page. You do daily check ins saying what all you did today. Can include how you ate as well.


Thanks, I will check this out. 



> As for a heated indoor.... I've NEVER ridden in a heated indoor. I grew up in Western Michigan, and the only thing heated in that barn was the office. I'd CHOOSE to go ride out in the snow too. But riding rarely stopped. The trouble for me would be could my little Stratus (first car) or little Sonoma (rear wheel drive truck) make it out there. I've heard mixed things about a heated barn/indoor, and when we build, we won't have them.


My BO isn't a fan of heated barns/arenas and after what I've read, I would prefer a non heated one.



> For warming up Fly, I'd just be doing a good amount of stretching in warm up. Get a lot of stretching in walk before moving to trot and so on.


But the thing is, when I stretch Fly, we do it after our ride. I usually get her to do flexions, then some stretches with all 4 feet squared and her nose comes right down between her two front feet. And then front stretches where I lift up her front feet and lean them forward a bit.

I am really guilty for not doing stretches on Fly as much as I should be. I learned how to do them at the First Aid clinic that I attended last April, so I should do them.

It's just no one else at the barn ever stretches their horses as they see no need to.



> Zumba is great. You look like a total fool sometimes, so you can add belly laughter to it. But it'll kick your butt. Planks are also a good, quick exercise to work core muscles and body awareness.


I hope it's not much.



> for stirrups, until I bought Izzie I rode in whatever saddle/stirrup iron combo that went with the horse. I rode in MASSIVE saddles for me (I'm 5'2" and in high school I weighed about 100 lbs soaking wet). Irons were also huge. But you learned how to keep your position no matter what you sat on, how to keep just enough weight in your heels to not allow your foot to slide forward (only way your foot is able to slide forward in the stirrups are if your heels are coming up), and how to move with the horse no matter what. Period. It's a valuable lesson, and buying new thing after new thing may leave you with disappointment and a dwindling bank account.


Yes and I learned a valuable lesson when I bought Fly a Myler D-ring bit thinking she would be better in it, but she hated it. 

But I truly do believe that my current stirrups are too wide. It was fine for my big ol' work boot (with composite toes), that I had before, but my Ariat riding boots are literally 3/4 the size of them, if not less lol. 

I haven't told my trainer that I got new stirrups and I most likely won't bother for the time being. I know for a fact though, that when I switched from my big ol' work boots to the Ariat's, I have a much more difficult time keeping my feet stead in the stirrups because with the Ariat's, my feet keep sliding forward due to the excess width of the stirrup.

I am heading to the store tomorrow morning to see what the owner thinks. Good chance I need to go one size larger from the new ones that I picked up last night.

The only concern I have is that, (even though I have the Texas twist on my saddle), I notice the twist isn't as perfectly aligned as it was when I first got the saddle back. When I got the saddle back a couple months ago, the stirrups were perfectly straight facing forward so I was able to slip my feet in and out easily.

But as time went on and I put some rides into it, those turned stirrups (are still turned) but they have lost some of the angle and the front no longer faces forward perfectly. So as a result, it's not as easy for me to put in and take out my feet as before.

So I will see what the owner says tomorrow. But aren't these twists suppose to stay how they were twisted from day one? Or do they loose the twist as you put wear on it?

I need to get this addressed because I didn't pay money to have my stirrups twisted for 2 months lol.


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## Rainaisabelle

Almost every rider would probably tell you they find rise trot more comfortable then sitting but once you do it correctly you might find sitting is more comfortable. Sitting trot also teaches you some very invaluable lessons like balance, especially when you have no stirrups


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## Tazzie

I'm not talking about you physically getting off the horse and stretching her. When I get out to Izzie, I tack her up and have my husband walk her while I finish getting ready (I'd do it all, but this cuts down the time a bit so we can have family time), then I hop right on. The walking before I mount is just to make sure my girth is tight enough (I purposely leave it a hair loose when I tack up, and then let walk), not to get her stretching. After I'm up I walk her around for a good amount of time (a few laps around my "arena")) before I pick up the contact. Once I have the contact (though I get it, western riders may not have the contact we Dressage riders take up), I work on getting her to willingly stretch into my contact. I do this through lateral movements (leg yields are my favorites to start with), and bending and softening to the inside. I basically do a stretchy walk (like our stretchy trot where we encourage them to stretch forward and downward into the contact) to get her back nice and limber and loose. When I feel she's warmed up enough at the walk, I start all over in the trot. Then the canter. She's not fully warmed up until after we've had our canter.

But basically, my entire warm up is making sure she's good and relaxed and using herself. We do stretch out her hind legs from the ground if we feel she has a ligament that is a bit tight. Sorry I was unclear with that.

Hopefully not too much with what? Zumba will absolutely wear you out. It's meant to. And it's a good workout. That and the HIIT will absolutely kick your butt. I usually need to hit my rescue inhaler for both of them.

Far as the stirrups, it's whatever makes you happy. I'd ride in whatever stirrup I had to. Preferably not too small since those could be dangerous, but I try and get bigger ones. I don't want a million stirrup irons for my one saddle, and have to change them out between me and my husband. So my irons are usually bigger than I need. We also don't have the fenders in the way or something to turn them for ease to remove or grab your irons. I can't answer on the twist or not. Perhaps riding more would help them keep their shape?

For reference, here are some pictures of me. You'll see my stirrup iron is on the ball of my foot. It doesn't leave that position. I've also added a picture that shows the space with my feet.

Also, as another reference to the sitting vs rising. This was a freestyle I did. It's not the prettiest, and she's not mad at me for sitting. I get anxious in a show and she gets anxious because of it. But sitting the trot I can better control the smaller aspects. Sure, I CAN do it rising trot, but I can get something just a bit nicer while sitting (usually).






And this was just before it, at home. Sitting trot, when done well, won't harm a horse. I can absolutely assure you none of us that ride sitting trot would want our horse to be sore.


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## tinyliny

I didn't know there WAS a training level freestyle. interesting.


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## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> I think you need to speak to your instructor about stirrup position vs leg position vs balance in your lesson, as I think her being able to show you will help more than anything someone can write about online. I don't want to see you get hung up on the _type_ of stirrup making such a difference in your riding position right now.


I have and she doesn't believe I need smaller stirrups. But in May, after my very first ride on Fly (and really struggling with those tiny stirrups from the previous owner), she didn't believe I needed bigger stirrups and she was wrong on this one because she even admitted afterwards that she made the wrong call and I did in fact need bigger stirrups.



> I ride in stirrups that look like this:


I like these, can you buy that front brace seperate? Those remind me of the pedals that you can get on bikes with those front toe braces.



> I know this pic is somewhat hard to see detail in because my half chap, shoe, and the stirrup are all black, but you can get the idea:


I like that too.



> My heel isn't super low because I ride with very long stirrups, but you can see the deep position is not _making_ me lean forward.
> 
> I suspect your foot is creeping forward because you are either bracing against the stirrups and/or your weight isn't dropping through your seat into your heel.. but that is something your instructor will be able to help you with.


I do agree with that, but once I put my foot in the new stirrups (even though I couldn't trot on Fly today), I immediately felt better in them. Also (where the older stirrup would apply pressure on the inside of my ankle each time I post in them, VERY ANNOYING!), the new stirrups didn't have that problem at all. Most likely due to a whole lot less weight and bulk.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Almost every rider would probably tell you they find rise trot more comfortable then sitting but once you do it correctly you might find sitting is more comfortable. Sitting trot also teaches you some very invaluable lessons like balance, especially when you have no stirrups


My trainer says I have a pretty good sitting trot. Believe it or not, I have an easier time leaning back and staying up straight when doing a sitting trot than posting. 

I do, truly believe that the most effective (and perhaps quickest too), way in getting balanced is by practicing posting with one foot out of the stirrups. Unfortunately for me, my legs aren't strong enough and I need to build them up more.

I remember doing this in the clinic and I nearly died lol. My inner leg muscles were literally burning. I am better balanced with my left foot in and right foot out, versus my left foot out and right foot in.


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## Tazzie

tinyliny said:


> I didn't know there WAS a training level freestyle. interesting.


There sure is. And we scored an 87% for that one. Granted it was just a fun schooling show, but nevertheless.


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## Hoofpic

Let's talk about full moons and the effect on mares. Do you guys believe you can excuse a horses bad behavior if there is a full moon?

I know many of you don't enjoy me bringing up my friends on here. But this is something that I would like to clear up because we get a lot of full moons out at the barn and every time a full moon comes out, it's the same song and dance.

There was a full moon last night and my two friends knew it was coming, same with the BO. They both had a lesson together with the BO (they don't get along with my trainer and refuse to use her so they use the BO for lessons). Apparently when I asked how the lesson went, they said their two mares that they rode were brats and being rude, not listening, not responding to their ques etc. But they said because a full moon was coming last night that they said it was okay and normal for their mares to act up.

But if it was me, I don't see it that way. Yes a full moon was coming, but it doesn't mean that you can just let things slide and let the horse get away with whatever. Am I correct here?

Today I rode Fly and she was a bit on edge compared to yesterday. She wasn't bad, but it was a noticable change in her for me to notice. And I corrected her when I needed to. I didn't let her get away with anything. Because I could have said "oh she's on edge because there was a full moon last night, so I will let it slide, it's okay". But to me, that's just making excuses for her is it not?


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## egrogan

No, I do not believe that. But if you and your friends do, I have no doubt the horses act accordingly.


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## Dehda01

While I do feel there is "something" to be said about the full moon causing the crazies to come out. The vet clinics phone rings significantly more with emergencies and my ER doc friend says that the ER IS A ZOO on full moons. I do not feel that it has ever affected me or my animals.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> No, I do not believe that. But if you and your friends do, I have no doubt the horses act accordingly.


Thanks, I feel the same way. You cant be making excuses for your horse.


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## edf

> Do you guys believe you can excuse a horses bad behavior if there is a full moon?


In general, no, I don't believe that, but to give you all some food for thought:

Could natural events play a part in an animals behavior? Possibly.
I would be able to predict when it would snow in winter by the way my cat would act- mom mom didn't believe me until it was proven right more often than not.. the second cat wouldn't react any different at all. also, right before a thunderstorm or a blizzard- snake breeders run to put the male snakes into the female snakes cage to breed them- more often than not, the snakes would mate ( we'd guess it was the change in barometric pressure- but there were plenty of times a pair I was breeding showed no interest-until I paired them right before a storm)

As per what I read, when the moon is full, it's closer... the moon does effect the tide... the farmer's almanac bases best time to plant crops based on moon cycles...


I think it could be more a reason vrs excuse thing... for example- the reason I could be more ill tempered 1 week out of my month is because of my menstrual cycle... but that doesn't excuse me from being nasty to people.

Could the moon cycle possibly play an affect on animal behavior? It could.... but it would still not be an excuse for a horse to misbehave. Maybe the horse would be more inclined to act out on impulse control? My mare actually kicked again when I was grooming her belly when she was in heat recently ( when I first got her, she did this on a regular basis). She was reprimanded irregardless of her being in heat- it doesn't matter, there is no excuse for her to kick like that. Maybe she was more inclined to act out her impulse control for some reason, but I don't let that excuse her. Her being in heat could be a reason for the behavior- but that is not an excuse for the behavior. She could have just decided to test me to see if she could get away with it again and the fact she was in heat was just coincidental.

Maybe the full moon could be a reason for the horses to be a bit different, but it's not an excuse. The horses may test the rider, and if the rider doesn't correct it and play's the whole 'full moon' speil... why would the horses change? If you excuse the behavioral changes during a full moon, you accept them. If I excused my mare's kicking due to her heat cycle, then I'd be accepting her kicking... which I don't.

I haven't noticed any difference in my mare- or the gelding I leased before- during a full moon. I notice slight different behavior when my mare is in heat. I wouldn't discredit the possibility of the full moon's affect on animals based on my previous experience with the cat and snakes, but I also don't believe it excuses behavioral expectations.


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## Hoofpic

I just left the saddle shop. The new stirrups are not too small but the lady owner said riding in laced boots is a huge mistake and safety risk because they can get caught up in the stirrup and I will be dragged. She said she has seen enough of it that it happens a lot more than many think.

She said I need to ride in leather boots and to keep the Ariats as my barn boots. But thats the thing, I dont want to have to keep switching boots everytime I ride and thats why you guys convinced me to get the Ariats.

She had me put on the Rio Mercedez boot and sit on my saddle and all of a sudden I noticed how much easier it was to slip my foot in and out of the stirrup.

She said she is getting in a bunch of square toed leather boots in the next couple weeks and told me to check back. 

Those Rio Mercedez boots that I tried on a few monthd ago, are now $199cdn. Only one pair left and (with an insert) it fits me.

Is she just trying to upsell me or do I really need leather boots for riding?


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## Dehda01

Bull-crap. Paddock boots are laced, field boots are laced. You SHOULD never have your boots lid all the way home, and if you have your ball of your foot properly placed on the stirrup it shouldn't be anywhere close to getting caught... And it could get caught anyways if you get in a nasty tangle.


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## natisha

Well, the lady does have a point. Slip on boots will allow your foot to slip out if caught (usually) while lace up boots tend to hang on. Field boots, while they have laces are still slip on boots.
Still I've seen people with slip on boots get hung up.
I think the heel is more of a factor in preventing a drag than anything. Nothing is 100% safe.

I've tried riding with the foot 'home' like bsms & I cannot do it. Too many years of not doing it, I guess.


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## Golden Horse

I have to join on again and say I'm so confused why this is hard...

Ride with the stirrups on the ball of your feet, weight falling gently to your heel, leg falling underneath your hip, feet forward, the way most riding has been taught for years, and why? because it is safe and effective (affective...sorry I know I should have that now, but I just don't)

Bigger stirrups are safer than small, if you have them safely on the ball of your foot, and keep them there by the soft falling of your weight through the heels to the ground.

As to laces, if you are at all worried then go get elastic laces, I have them in my Ariats, because I tend to be in and out a lot at home and I get fed up keep doing the laces up, so I turned them into a kind of slip on, which means they would also slip off. OR you could buy a pair of short chaps to wear over them, that covers the laces, and gives more protection to your leg and foot, not that front of your foot should need much protection because you are learning to ride the proper way, stirrup on ball of foot, weight gently sinking into heel. I wear short English chaps when riding here in the winter, in our unheated arena down to -30*C and below, because they stop any drafts going up your leg and provide nice warmth.


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## Dehda01

Even better than short chaps... Full leather chaps. So much warmth and stickability. It is hard getting it of them come late spring. A bit too warm for me in summer though. I also LOFF mountain horses winter overbreeches... But I know that that may go against your western sensibility. But I will do anything to stay warm in -10f weather. Under armor layers and leather chaps are my go to, and I often start stripping layers in 10-15 mins.

I am in CT now, but have worked horses year round in northern Maine, and North Dakota. Riding in snow, rain and sleet. I just won't ride outside if there is obviously ice and my horse needs to be properly shod... Or barefoot- depending on their foot quality/concavity/agility- For the best traction. 

I have enjoyed a heated indoors- they are normally only heated just about freezing. And the barn I truck too currently in the winter is heated. So the indoor is cold, but we can go inside to 45F which is a real respite!!!

I mind their lungs though. If it hurts to breathe for me, I ease up some. But their airway is much longer than ours so warms air faster before it hits their lungs and they are built to be much more cold tolerate than the naked primates we are....


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> I like these, can you buy that front brace seperate? Those remind me of the pedals that you can get on bikes with those front toe braces.


Those are called 'cages' and yes you can buy them separately. If you want a more 'western' look you can buy tapaderos separately:













Hoofpic said:


> Let's talk about full moons and the effect on mares. Do you guys believe you can excuse a horses bad behavior if there is a full moon?


I rode endurance on my mare for 8 years and _never _had an issue with a full moon or with her being in heat. Not once. I have also competed another mare quite a bit this season and also never have had any sort of issue. While a rare mare may have a medical cause for issues during heats, I think those are few and far between and instead people just use it as an excuse.




Hoofpic said:


> the lady owner said riding in laced boots is a huge mistake and safety risk because they can get caught up in the stirrup and I will be dragged. She said she has seen enough of it that it happens a lot more than many think.


What _exactly_ are the laces supposedly getting caught in? I have never heard of such a thing personally. I ride in laced hikers and have never had an issue, nor have I ever heard of one (and distance riders ride in all sorts of laced shoes). I also never had an issue with my lace-front tall boots back when I was showing and using normal irons.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> While I do feel there is "something" to be said about the full moon causing the crazies to come out. The vet clinics phone rings significantly more with emergencies and my ER doc friend says that the ER IS A ZOO on full moons. I do not feel that it has ever affected me or my animals.


Oh interesting.


----------



## Hoofpic

edf said:


> In general, no, I don't believe that, but to give you all some food for thought:
> 
> Could natural events play a part in an animals behavior? Possibly.
> I would be able to predict when it would snow in winter by the way my cat would act- mom mom didn't believe me until it was proven right more often than not.. the second cat wouldn't react any different at all. also, right before a thunderstorm or a blizzard- snake breeders run to put the male snakes into the female snakes cage to breed them- more often than not, the snakes would mate ( we'd guess it was the change in barometric pressure- but there were plenty of times a pair I was breeding showed no interest-until I paired them right before a storm)
> 
> As per what I read, when the moon is full, it's closer... the moon does effect the tide... the farmer's almanac bases best time to plant crops based on moon cycles...
> 
> 
> I think it could be more a reason vrs excuse thing... for example- the reason I could be more ill tempered 1 week out of my month is because of my menstrual cycle... but that doesn't excuse me from being nasty to people.
> 
> Could the moon cycle possibly play an affect on animal behavior? It could.... but it would still not be an excuse for a horse to misbehave. Maybe the horse would be more inclined to act out on impulse control? My mare actually kicked again when I was grooming her belly when she was in heat recently ( when I first got her, she did this on a regular basis). She was reprimanded irregardless of her being in heat- it doesn't matter, there is no excuse for her to kick like that.


Being in heat is another situation where my friends excuse their mares for acting up. For me, when Fly was in heat 2-3 months ago, I still rode her and she didn't act up at all. But if she did, I would have still corrected her because one of my past bad habits was me making excuses for Fly. I don't do that anymore.

I don't even second guess things anymore. I just do it.



> Maybe she was more inclined to act out her impulse control for some reason, but I don't let that excuse her. Her being in heat could be a reason for the behavior- but that is not an excuse for the behavior.


I agree.



> Maybe the full moon could be a reason for the horses to be a bit different, but it's not an excuse. The horses may test the rider, and if the rider doesn't correct it and play's the whole 'full moon' speil... why would the horses change? If you excuse the behavioral changes during a full moon, you accept them. If I excused my mare's kicking due to her heat cycle, then I'd be accepting her kicking... which I don't.


Exactly. Because a horse won't know that you excused them for acting that way just because of a full moon. They see it as you accepting what they just did and moving forward they will remember it and try it again for the next time around (full moon or not). Again, it all roots back to being consistent with your reprimands.


----------



## Hoofpic

I will give an example here. 

I used to always make excuses for Fly and I. Windy days "Oh Fly doesn't like the wind, so I'm not going to bring her in". "Oh, there's a big scary trailer down there, so I'm not going to bring her that way".

This past weekend, the mini donkeys were moved to a new paddock and this paddock just happens to be on the path to the arena. So for now on, when bringing in Fly we need to pass the donkeys. 

Walked her into the arena on Friday. She saw the donkeys, she was on high alert even though she has seen them many times already, just in a different paddock. But I just kept going and kept my head up as if the donkeys weren't even there. 

My friend is not happy about the mini donkeys being on the path to the arena because her mare is not okay with them and she said that she will never be able to lead her mare past or near the donkeys. So today, she didn't ride her mare because she said that she will not be okay with the donkeys. 

My other friend today was at the barn as well at the same time and she said that she wants to take her colt out but she will not because she will have to fend off the other two geldings in his herd when getting him out of the field. But I thought...well...just do it. Again, it's just the mentality that I have now, just do it and stop making excuses.

My friends know about what happened with Fly and I last Monday. Today I was riding Fly in the arena by myself and my friend came up to me and said she's going to practice for the games day, where she will be attending the paper under the leg challenge. Ride bareback and keep a piece of paper under your legs. 

So she was well aware what caused Fly to spook on Monday. She came up to me and asked if Fly will be okay with her in the arena riding with a piece of paper under her leg. I said yes. I told her that I worked with Fly some more on Monday with the paper and she was better. 

She asked if I wanted Fly to come check out the paper and see if she will accept it? I told her no because her and I already did that on Monday. No need to do it again. We need to move forward.

So my friend rode in the arena with a piece of paper under her leg and Fly was fine with it but I just made sure to keep a good distance (just in case she dropped that paper to the ground).

So after she was done, I asked her to leave the paper on the ground and I would get Fly to walk over it with me on her back. Again, it's no different than the bridge, noodles, flag, tarp, logs, etc. 

She didn't do it the first 2 times (she snorted and wanted to check it out and sniff it, so I let her). Again, I asked for one step at a time and eventually had her stand right next to the paper for a good minute or so, then she licked and chewed.

The 3rd time however I was able to get her to walk over the piece of paper with no stoppage during it and I also heard her hind leg step on it after, and I praised her after.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I think, maybe you should just stop bringing your friends into it. If you don't agree that's fine and this is your thread so you can do what you want but it basically sounds like you're bagging out the way your friends handle their horses as they own them it's not your business to criticise. JMO


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I think, maybe you should just stop bringing me your friends into it. If you don't agree that's fine and this is your thread so you can do what you want but it basically sounds like you're bagging out the way your friends handle their horses as they own them it's not your business to criticise. JMO


I'm not bagging on my friends (they are my friends afterall), but I would love help them and give them some advice, but I know it's none of my business and I'm still in learning mode so it's hard to see friends not make the most out of situations. 

I thank all you guys, because all you guys kept telling me to stop making excuses for Fly. Stop making excuses, stop bringing up her age as a factor, stop second guessing her, stop questioning her and see and treat her like just any other mare. Well I have done just that and it has completely changed me.

I'm very glad that I was able to put a good quality ride on her today. I was fine posting in the stirrups and we did circles and serpentines etc. She really needed a good ride, she hasn't had a good sweaty ride in about a week and 2 days. 

I'm glad that I got her to walk over the piece of paper with me on her back. I think that was a big step in her gaining her confidence, seeing how she was truly terrified of paper on Monday.

Now, do you think I can build from today? Maybe do the same thing again, except next time maybe spread out say 10 pieces of paper within a few feet in the arena and have her walk and weave between them? Or would you just leave it and move on?


----------



## Whinnie

Leave them alone or they will no longer be your friends. What they do or don't do with their horses doesn't affect you.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> Leave them alone or they will no longer be your friends. What they do or don't do with their horses doesn't affect you.


I know. I mind my own business at the barn. I listen to what my friends say but I won't put too much of my input into it unless they ask for it. Otherwise, I just say "okay" and accept it.

I think the most important thing on my behalf is that, because of how I permanently have my mindset on the "stop making excuses, just do it" attitude, that no matter, what my friends say to me (asking if Fly will be okay with this or that, bringing up her age, full moons, being in heat as excuses to letting her off the hook), I will not let it affect me. 

I will listen to what my friends have to say, but I don't take it seriously and I don't let it sink into my head because I don't want anyone or anything affecting my new self and risk me going back to my old ways. I won't let that happen and it's on my shoulders and my responsibility to make sure that this doesn't happen.

Because all I know is that, once I threw Fly's age right out the window and stopped questioning her, she is a much happier mare now.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I don't even second guess things anymore. I just do it.


I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this :wink:


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Bull-crap. Paddock boots are laced, field boots are laced. You SHOULD never have your boots lid all the way home, and if you have your ball of your foot properly placed on the stirrup it shouldn't be anywhere close to getting caught... And it could get caught anyways if you get in a nasty tangle.


I gave my new stirrups another go yesterday in post trot and I feel that they work for me. It's quite the difference from my previous ones since these are 2 or 3 sizes smaller. I was able to keep my heels down a lot more and with a lot less effort and no more of my feet sliding down into the stirrup. The stirrups stayed right on the ball of my foot.

The only thing is that I can't get my feet in and out of them as easily as the old chunky stirrups. I got better as my ride went on and I was testing them out, but IMO if I had a pair of boots that were just a tad thinner, it would be perfect.

I am open to buying a pair of leather riding boots.

Though I feel that the owner at the store yesterday was just trying to upsell me (after I do know that she is a very good sales person). When she got me to try on those Rio Mercedez boots, then sit back in my saddle and put my feet in the stirrups, I immediately could tell the difference.

But I'm not sure if i agree with her on her belief that rubber soles in stirrups is a bad idea. There are lots of people riding in boots with rubber on them. But she said that disagreed and said all good riders only ride in leather slip on boots and brought up when you go to shows and clinics, do you ever see anyone riding in rubber soles?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this :wink:


Can you give me an example? Yes there are still times where I tend to over think things but it's never on purpose. But I am miles better than months ago where I was making excuses for Fly.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Can you give me an example? Yes there are still times where I tend to over think things but it's never on purpose. But I am miles better than months ago where I was making excuses for Fly.


I don't need to give examples because A) you just said: 



Hoofpic said:


> Yes there are still times where I tend to over think things


...and B) your whole journal is an example!

I agree...you have come a long way and part of how you "figure things out" is to work it through your brain by asking the same question several different ways. It's your learning process. Nothing wrong with that...but I disagree that you "just do things" without second guessing them or questioning it first. In fact, I think that the things you "just do" now are the very things that several folks on here repeatedly told you to do. 

I very well may be wrong here. Just my perception.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I have to join on again and say I'm so confused why this is hard...
> 
> Ride with the stirrups on the ball of your feet, weight falling gently to your heel, leg falling underneath your hip, feet forward, the way most riding has been taught for years, and why? because it is safe and effective (affective...sorry I know I should have that now, but I just don't)
> 
> Bigger stirrups are safer than small, if you have them safely on the ball of your foot, and keep them there by the soft falling of your weight through the heels to the ground.
> 
> As to laces, if you are at all worried then go get elastic laces, I have them in my Ariats, because I tend to be in and out a lot at home and I get fed up keep doing the laces up, so I turned them into a kind of slip on, which means they would also slip off. OR you could buy a pair of short chaps to wear over them, that covers the laces, and gives more protection to your leg and foot, not that front of your foot should need much protection because you are learning to ride the proper way, stirrup on ball of foot, weight gently sinking into heel. I wear short English chaps when riding here in the winter, in our unheated arena down to -30*C and below, because they stop any drafts going up your leg and provide nice warmth.


I don't want to get into chaps, it's just another thing that I need to worry about putting on before each ride. Plus here, they are very expensive. 

On my new stirrups, they stay right on the ball of my foot. On my previous ones, I can just about put my entire foot through them without any part of my boot ever touching the stirrup. 

I'm not too concerned about the laces on my current Ariat boots. One of my friends told me that the chances of having your laces
caught up in your stirrups are very rare.


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> Those are called 'cages' and yes you can


Thanks



> What _exactly_ are the laces supposedly getting caught in?


I'm not sure either. I'm not too concerned though riding with laces.


----------



## Dehda01

Hoofpic said:


> I gave my new stirrups another go yesterday in post trot and I feel that they work for me. It's quite the difference from my previous ones since these are 2 or 3 sizes smaller. I was able to keep my heels down a lot more and with a lot less effort and no more of my feet sliding down into the stirrup. The stirrups stayed right on the ball of my foot.
> 
> The only thing is that I can't get my feet in and out of them as easily as the old chunky stirrups. I got better as my ride went on and I was testing them out, but IMO if I had a pair of boots that were just a tad thinner, it would be
> 
> I am open to buying a pair of leather riding boots.
> 
> Though I feel that the owner at the store yesterday was just trying to upsell me (after I do know that she is a very good sales person). When she got me to try on those Rio Mercedez boots, then sit back in my saddle and put my feet in the stirrups, I immediately could tell the difference.
> 
> But I'm not sure if i agree with her on her belief that rubber soles in stirrups is a bad idea. There are lots of people riding in boots with rubber on them. But she said that disagreed and said all good riders only ride in leather slip on boots and brought up when you go to shows and clinics, do you ever see anyone riding in rubber soles?


Open a catalog and look at the boot sections. Every single one of my tall boots, paddocks and many of my western boots have rubber, plastic or some composite sole. 

The general English stirrup goal is for grip!!! I don't want my foot to move. Though the general stirrup is a fillis- Grater pad, magnetic pads, bristles have become very popular... Western stirrups can add comfort pads to add comfort and cushioning/grip. Beating up/breaking the leather is the best. I don't like tight leather on leather personally, and HATE LEATHER soles on smooth wood or metal stirrups. But I suppose it is what a person is used to. Blah blah blah. 

Decades of lessons have been beaten into me to keep my leg still and quiet through enormous amounts sitting trot, posting trot without stirrups and various other exercises. So I ride with my heels down, ball of my foot on the stirrup with a very similar leg as in my dressage saddle. Posting sometimes/as needed, particularly when warming my horses up or when trail riding.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure either. I'm not too concerned though riding with laces.


It's not the laces themselves but rather that laces usually make a boot tighter & unable to slip off. I sometimes wear lace up paddock boots & there is no way I'd get those boots off without undoing the laces.
If I rode with the laces undone & hanging they wouldn't get caught on the stirrup, they'd just flop around.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I don't need to give examples because A) you just said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and B) your whole journal is an example!
> 
> I agree...you have come a long way and part of how you "figure things out" is to work it through your brain by asking the same question several different ways. It's your learning process. Nothing wrong with that...but I disagree that you "just do things" without second guessing them or questioning it first. In fact, I think that the things you "just do" now are the very things that several folks on here repeatedly told you to do.
> 
> I very well may be wrong here. Just my perception.


Yes I agree with you, and it's just the way I learn. Verbally, often it will take many times of me being told something (or in different ways) for me to fully grasp it. But visually, it's a whole other story, after all I am a hands on visual learner.

The thing is, I do believe I have the "just do it attitude", at least mentally. I may not show it on here, but I can feel it in my gut. I no longer see Fly as any different than any other mare at the barn and I treat her the same way. I don't question whether she will be okay with this or that anymore. I just tell myself that she will be, because I will teach her. Of course me feeling much more of a leader today definitely plays a huge part of it.

For instance, the paper yesterday, seeing how she spooked last Monday, there is no way I would have done that 2 or 3 months ago, and especially not with me on her back. Because I would have been nervous, scared, not sure how she would react. But I did it because when my friend asked me if she would be okay with the paper, I automatically said yes. "Yes, she will be fine", has been an automatic train of thought that I have implemented over the past few months. Thinking this way has had me become a more positive person and when you have doubts and second guess things, that is negative thoughts and Fly will only feed off the negative energy. I don't want anymore of that. 

I asked my friend to put the paper on the floor after and I was going to walk Fly over it. While she was saying to me "are you sure she's going to be okay with it?"...maybe let her sniff her first from the ground?"..."what if she freaks out?". I just told my friend "she will be fine". If this was two or three months ago, I would have done it from the ground first. But I am confident now in building Fly's confidence and building her trust in me that I felt comfortable doing it from the saddle. I just told myself that she will be fine and that is the biggest change that you see in me today. I don't see or handle Fly the same way that I did months ago. I see her as a confident mare who can and will do anything and will try her hardest when shown the way.

And I should thank my trainer for changing me as well. I have really mentored her over the past few months and she has been a big factor in changing my attitude. Though she still believes age is a factor in things, when she brings it up, I completely ignore it.


----------



## Whinnie

The stirrups don't stay on the balls of your feet. The balls of your feet stay on the stirrup if you are riding correctly, regardless of their size. And you are not mentoring your trainer, she is mentoring you.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I don't want to get into chaps, it's just another thing that I need to worry about putting on before each ride. Plus here, they are very expensive.


Full chaps are expensive, half chaps not so much, and worth it for the warmth for me. I just put mine on when I put my boots on, no biggie, takes 2 seconds.



Hoofpic said:


> On my new stirrups, they stay right on the ball of my foot. On my previous ones, I can just about put my entire foot through them without any part of my boot ever touching the stirrup.


Just make sure that they are not too small for you, I actually keep 2 pairs of stirrups at the barn, I have narrower ones I wear during the summer when I ride in cowboy boots, and wider ones for my winter Ariats. Too wide is safer than too small, as long as you have your weight in the stirrup correctly


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I know. I mind my own business at the barn. I listen to what my friends say but I won't put too much of my input into it unless they ask for it. Otherwise, I just say "okay" and accept it.
> 
> I think the most important thing on my behalf is that, because of how I permanently have my mindset on the "stop making excuses, just do it" attitude, that no matter, what my friends say to me (asking if Fly will be okay with this or that, bringing up her age, full moons, being in heat as excuses to letting her off the hook), I will not let it affect me.
> 
> I will listen to what my friends have to say, but I don't take it seriously and I don't let it sink into my head because I don't want anyone or anything affecting my new self and risk me going back to my old ways. I won't let that happen and it's on my shoulders and my responsibility to make sure that this doesn't happen.
> 
> Because all I know is that, once I threw Fly's age right out the window and stopped questioning her, she is a much happier mare now.



You don't get it. Unless a behavior of another horse is putting you or your horse in danger, you will be considered a jerk if you offer advice. Unless their horses or their lack of handling them correctly (in your opinion) is hurting you, ruining your ride or otherwise affecting you in a negative way, you have no right to offer your opinion. Your opinion to them will not be appreciated unless specifically asked for.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> The stirrups don't stay on the balls of your feet. The balls of your feet stay on the stirrup if you are riding correctly, regardless of their size. And you are not mentoring your trainer, she is mentoring you.


Sorry, yes that is what I meant to say. The balls of my feet are currently staying on my new stirrups. But when I put my feet in or take them out, I do have to wiggle my feet a bit, is that normal? a bad thing? Obviously not nearly as bad as my original stirrups (that came on the saddle), where I had to do the shake 'n bake with my feet lol. Whereas with my previous, big chunky stirrups, I could slip my feet in and out without my boots even touching the stirrups. 

Yes my trainer is mentoring me.


----------



## natisha

Whinnie said:


> You don't get it. Unless a behavior of another horse is putting you or your horse in danger, you will be considered a jerk if you offer advice. Unless their horses or their lack of handling them correctly (in your opinion) is hurting you, ruining your ride or otherwise affecting you in a negative way, you have no right to offer your opinion. Your opinion to them will not be appreciated unless specifically asked for.


Absolutely.
Boarding is like living in an apartment building. You rent the space but do your own thing. You greet others & maybe become friends with a few but you don't offer opinions on their car, spouses or kids etc. Keeps things nicer for everyone.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Sorry, yes that is what I meant to say. The balls of my feet are currently staying on my new stirrups. But when I put my feet in or take them out, I do have to wiggle my feet a bit, is that normal? a bad thing?


I personally would NEVER ride in any stirrup where I had to do any sort of wiggle to get in :eek_color:

BIGGER is better than to small, and I still don't understand why your feet don't stay put, I'm with your trainer here, you should be able to keep your foot in the right place in a bigger stirrup.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I personally would NEVER ride in any stirrup where I had to do any sort of wiggle to get in :eek_color:
> 
> BIGGER is better than to small, and I still don't understand why your feet don't stay put, I'm with your trainer here, you should be able to keep your foot in the right place in a bigger stirrup.


Hmm, I'm really questioning the owner at the saddle shop yesterday or whether she was giving me good advice or she just wanted to sell me on a pair of leather boots. 

She told me that with my current Ariats, that the new stirrups aren't too small, but it immediately brought up red flags for me. She said my old stirrups (I even brought them into the store) were way too big :icon_rolleyes:
Even though I told her that I have to wiggle my feet to get the stirrups to the ball of my feet and wiggle them to get them out. She said "it's not the stirrup, it's your boots, you need proper riding boots"

The good news is that I'm just experimenting and I can always easily go back to my old big chunky stirrups if need to be. The new ones were only $80, and I can use them if I got thinner boots. 

I don't understand why my feet don't stay put either in the big chunky stirrups. They DID when I rode in my work boots, but not in the Ariats.

Overall, I do find the thinner stirrups more comfy. Someone on here awhile back mentioned that, thinner stirrups are better because of less surface area. If I need to buy a pair of leather boots just to ride in, to maximize the new comfort level I will do that.


----------



## Hoofpic

I will admit, IF I was to buy a pair or cowboy boots, I might as well just save myself the hassle of looking around more and get those Rio Mercedez for $200. That is a crazy good price for those boots and compared to what other stores have in that price range, you won't find anything close to the quality of the Rio's. 

The only thing is that, it's from that shop yesterday and quite frankly, I would rather not give them my business (good deal or not), if in fact the owner gave me incorrect advice yesterday in just an attempt to upsell me.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Maybe you already spoke to this and if so, apologies. 

Ariat makes different styles of boots with both a rubber or a leather sole. It could be that your work boots are rubber soled and your Ariats are leather which is more slippery especially if wet?


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

Hoofpic, are YOU happy with your current boots? If so, didn't you say a few pages back that you could get wider stirrups?

If you like your boots you have now, try to get stirrups (that you don't have to wiggle your feet in and out of) and keep your current boots.

Just my two cents =)


----------



## Hoofpic

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Maybe you already spoke to this and if so, apologies.
> 
> Ariat makes different styles of boots with both a rubber or a leather sole. It could be that your work boots are rubber soled and your Ariats are leather which is more slippery especially if wet?


My ariats are rubber soled, they are the Terrains.


----------



## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> Hoofpic, are YOU happy with your current boots? If so, didn't you say a few pages back that you could get wider stirrups?
> 
> If you like your boots you have now, try to get stirrups (that you don't have to wiggle your feet in and out of) and keep your current boots.
> 
> Just my two cents =)


I am happy with my Ariat boots, I have no issues with them. 

Right now I have my super big (and wide) stirrups, that (at the time or purchase), I fitted them to my work composite toe boots (which I no longer use and will be saved for rain season and winter due to them being waterproof). These stirrups fit my work boots perfect but are too wide for the Ariats.

The new stirrups that I just got on Friday are IMO a tad too small for my Ariats (even though the owner at the store yesterday said they're just right and that it's my boots being the problem, not the stirrups). Well what if I don't want to get cowboy boots and I'm happy with my Ariats? I told her that I know many who ride in them with no problems, but she kept saying how they're a safety risk and that no rider in shows and clinics will ride with laced boots.

Honestly, after yesterdays ride, I don't think I will be riding in my new stirrups with my Ariats ever again, simply because I have to wiggle my feet to get my feet in and out of them. I don't like that. It doesn't make me feel safe in case I ever needed to quickly pop my feet out of them.

If I was to use my new stirrups, it would be in thinner riding cowboy boots only.

Otherwise, if I stick with the Ariats, I will unfortunately have to go back to my old wide and chunky stirrups.

But preference wise, I much prefer the thinner and lighter stirrups.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> She said I need to ride in leather boots and to keep the Ariats as my barn boots. But thats the thing, I dont want to have to keep switching boots everytime I ride and thats why you guys convinced me to get the Ariats.


You DO NOT need to ride in leather boots, that is just a preference thing, lots of us ride in Ariats, that is why people were sharing their experiences, and remember we aren't trying to sell you anything,





Hoofpic said:


> Those Rio Mercedez boots that I tried on a few monthd ago, are now $199cdn. Only one pair left and (with an insert) it fits me.
> 
> Is she just trying to upsell me or do I really need leather boots for riding?



There is a reason the price of those boots have come down, they look like 'wanna be' cowboy boots, difficult to take seriously.

I LOVE my Justin mens ropers I have owned for 10 years now, you can walk and ride in them, just plain black with a stitched design, I school, show, clinic, and go to events in them. If you check the link you will see they have lace up types as well. 

https://www.justinboots.com/footwear/men_styles_roper-boots

I would either get stirrups that give you clearance each side or your foot with your Ariats, or go for a pair of very plain ropers...


----------



## Dehda01

Hoofpic said:


> I don't want to get into chaps, it's just another thing that I need to worry about putting on before each ride. Plus here, they are very expensive.
> 
> On my new stirrups, they stay right on the ball of my foot. On my previous ones, I can just about put my entire foot through them without any part of my boot ever touching the stirrup.
> 
> I'm not too concerned about the laces on my current Ariat boots. One of my friends told me that the chances of having your laces
> caught up in your stirrups are very rare.


Chaps are expensive, but so are layers of under armor, base layers and I prefer to not be cold when I ride. So chaps or expensive winter overbreeches over my base layer and breech/pant when it is when it is wickedly cold and horses need to be worked. 

Horses aren't a cheap endeavor. And it really isn't that expensive... Particularly since they last forever. I think my pair are over 15 years old. I got them as a teenager. They have had some repairs and some other addons but they do just fine. They can walk by themselves at this point and can probably train a pretty greenie. Don't trust them to do finish work though. 

You can also find USED Pairs if you measure carefully or go to swap meets... I try to buy used as often as possible, but I know that is harder as a beginner.


----------



## Dehda01

You buy a stirrup to fit your boot AND BE SAFE, not a stirrup to fit the size foot you dream about having... 

I would love to have a beautiful delicate size 6 foot and be able to use a 4.5", but that would be ridiculous because of how tall I am


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Chaps aren't that expensive I got mine from the UK for $50 I think


----------



## Dehda01

I have paid anything from $5 at a consignment store to $250 US dollar for a very nice pair of leather chaps.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Full chaps are expensive, half chaps not so much, and worth it for the warmth for me. I just put mine on when I put my boots on, no biggie, takes 2 seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> Just make sure that they are not too small for you, I actually keep 2 pairs of stirrups at the barn, I have narrower ones I wear during the summer when I ride in cowboy boots, and wider ones for my winter Ariats. Too wide is safer than too small, as long as you have your weight in the stirrup correctly


Dumb question, so are you saying to buy a pair of chaps and then connect to my Ariats and use the old big stirrups that I have?

I happen to have my old big stirrups in my trunk as well as my Ariats. So I should be able to take both in the store and fit whatever chaps to them correct?


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Chaps aren't that expensive I got mine from the UK for $50 I think


Where I live, stores have them for $400-1000. Why the hell are these so expensive?!


----------



## Hoofpic

Wait, it's "half chaps" that I need, not chaps right?

Is this what I need to close up the gap in my big chunky stirrups with my Ariats?


----------



## sarahfromsc

Full chaps do not connect to the boot. 

Like Golden, I have two pairs or stirrups, summer and winter. I took the boots to the shop and fit the stirrup to my winter boots and my summer boots. Very easy to do. Not rocket science.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Chaps aren't that expensive I got mine from the UK for $50 I think
> 
> 
> 
> Where I live, stores have them for $400-1000. Why the hell are these so expensive?!
Click to expand...

I buy online ? They don't need to really expensive chaps if you don't want them to be


----------



## Dehda01

No, chaps won't fix your stirrup issue. You need to figure that out yourself. I have already given my 2 cents about that. I just mention them because I find them helpful to stay warm during riding in the winter. Or if I need extra stickability at other times. 

Half chaps are useful for preventing chafing for English saddles when you don't want to wear tall boots, but I wouldn't recommend them for you in this circumstance. IMO.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Wait, it's "half chaps" that I need, not chaps right?
> 
> Is this what I need to close up the gap in my big chunky stirrups with my Ariats?



OK, one step at a time...

You don't NEED to get anything, I suggested the half chaps originally because you sounded worried about the lacers in your Ariats. Now I like mine, but I do wear English style winter breeches often during the winter to keep warm.




Save​


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, it's "half chaps" that I need, not chaps right?
> 
> Is this what I need to close up the gap in my big chunky stirrups with my Ariats?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, one step at a time...
> 
> You don't NEED to get anything, I suggested the half chaps originally because you sounded worried about the lacers in your Ariats. Now I like mine, but I do wear English style winter breeches often during the winter to keep warm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Save​
Click to expand...

I just went to Lammlies and tried on half chaps.Im an XL and the only ones they had in stock for thay size and in leather were Ariats. Nice chaps, comfy but $80. More than I was wanting to spend but I got them. I put it on with my Ariat boot on and put it through my old chunky stirrup and it felt good. So these chaps will provide grip for me?

I also wanted to check out what riding boots they had and I tried on a pair of leather riding boots (Dan's boots? That was the brand), exclusive brand to Lamlies. 

The guy said with my new stirrup, if I wanted a leather boot, I would need a shank boot because my stirrup is more arched at the bottom and that's what these boots were. They felt just like the Rio Mercedez that the other store had. These are $209CDN.

Thats why yesterday when I rode in my new stirrups, I felt excess pressure on the sides of my foot because my Ariat's are meant for a flat bottom stirrup

You mentioned something about the Rio Mercedez being not that great of a boot right? Or was that someone else?

Someone said, there is a reason why they're on clearance.

So I just picked up the half chaps for now and will think it over the next day. As long as I don't ride in them, I'm able to return them for the Dan's boots if I decide to.

I think what it all comes down to is, how bad do I want to ride in those new thin stirrups that I just got? If I want to, I will have no choice but to get new shank boots. 

But if I can write off the $80 that I just spent on those stirrups, and settle for going back to the old big chunky stirrup, then all I would need is chaps.


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## Hoofpic

I'm a bit flustered and I guess you could say "taken advantage of" by the lady yesterday at the other shop. I brought my new stirrups and saddle in yesterday, sat in them for her to assess and she said they were not too small but that the problem is my Ariat boots. When in fact, my Ariat boots are not the problem and yes my new stirrups are too small because they are meant for a shank boot.

If she was an honest sincere owner she would have told me that the new stirrups were not a good fit for my Ariats and to keep using my old ones. But she didnt. Instead, she decided to try to make a sale out of it by selling me Rio Mercedez boots.

She knows that Im still learning and I dont know a lot about boots and stirrups, and decided to take advantage of me.

So chances are I just waisted $80 on new stirrups, unless I end up getting shank boots to make use of them.


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## Dehda01

1) You need to not ride in a tight stirrup. 

2) Many people ride with laced boots just fine. Horseback riding is a dangerous sport. Riding with cages IS the safest option, though most don't. Even people who have been seriously dragged. You can find a million ways to die on horseback. We just try to set you up for the least %... 

3) Ariat terrains are built as a riding boot. And are good all around boots. I know a dozen quality riders with them, icluding myself. 

Buy a cowboy boot... Don't.... Buying online is usually cheaper... Then go out and fit yourself for darn stirrups. 

You are wasting way too much energy on this, and so have I. Get bigger stirrups, enjoy riding your horse. The end.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> 1) You need to not ride in a tight stirrup.
> 
> 2) Many people ride with laced boots just fine. Horseback riding is a dangerous sport. Riding with cages IS the safest option, though most don't. Even people who have been seriously dragged. You can find a million ways to die on horseback. We just try to set you up for the least %...
> 
> 3) Ariat terrains are built as a riding boot. And are good all around boots. I know a dozen quality riders with them, icluding myself.
> 
> Buy a cowboy boot... Don't.... Buying online is usually cheaper... Then go out and fit yourself for darn stirrups.
> 
> You are wasting way too much energy on this, and so have I. Get bigger stirrups, enjoy riding your horse. The end.


I already have bigger stirrups, my chunky ones that Ive been using for the past 4 months. I could go back to these ones but then my new stirrups are $80 down the toilet.
I feel lied and taken advantage of by the owner yesterday.


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## Dehda01

She is a sales person- that is her job, and I sometimes feel you might be a bit too easily open to suggestions by people. I am sorry you feel taken advantage of.

Bring them back.


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## jenkat86

I wouldn't count on the half chaps adding grip for you. Since you are riding in a western saddle, there's practically no difference between wearing half chaps and wearing cowboy boots over your jeans. If you want grip in a western saddle then you need to think above the knee.


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## paintedpastures

IDK but seems like your making a mountain out of a mole hill Don't know why you are having such trouble with stirrups:neutral: I ride in my Arait terrains , different cowboy boots,muck boots you name it ... also using different saddles & never had a stirrup issue


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> She is a sales person- that is her job, and I sometimes feel you might be a bit too easily open to suggestions by people. I am sorry you feel taken advantage of.
> 
> Bring them back.


I can't because the owner said that the stirrups fit my Ariats fine, even though they do not.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I can't because the owner said that the stirrups fit my Ariats fine, even though they do not.


That's not how returns work.


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## Dehda01

Hoofpic said:


> I can't because the owner said that the stirrups fit my Ariats fine, even though they do not.


No hon, if there is not enough clearance and you have to wiggle your foot to get out of the stirrup... It is a safety issue. SO BRING THEM BACK. Salespeople can be wrong. Trust your gut.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

I agree- take them back.

If you don't want to return them, you could always sell then yourself. But, if you do that, you probably won't get what you paid for them.


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## PoptartShop

If you have a receipt, you can easily return them. Especially if you feel like you wasted money on them...return!


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

Hoofpic said:


> I will try them out tomorrow with my left foot when riding Fly. *The owner at the store said that if they're too small, I can switch them out tomorrow for one size larger.*


Since you've already said that you are happy with your Ariats, and don't really want to go back to your old stirrups, why can't you just switch them out like you mentioned earlier? Has it been too long of a period since you've purchased them or something?

To me, switching them out for the wider pair seems like the best option. You'll be safer by not riding in stirrups you have to wiggle your feet in and out of, and you'll get to keep your Ariats.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> No hon, if there is not enough clearance and you have to wiggle your foot to get out of the stirrup... It is a safety issue. SO BRING THEM BACK. Salespeople can be wrong. Trust your gut.


Well I brought the saddle to her with the new stirrups on, she told me to sit in the saddle and put my feet in the stirrups. She said that the new stirrups aren't too small and if I have to wiggle my feet a bit to get them in and out, then it's the boots, not the stirrups. Hence why she told me to buy proper riding boots :neutral:



3rdTimestheCharm said:


> Since you've already said that you are happy with your Ariats, and don't really want to go back to your old stirrups, why can't you just switch them out like you mentioned earlier? Has it been too long of a period since you've purchased them or something?
> 
> To me, switching them out for the wider pair seems like the best option. You'll be safer by not riding in stirrups you have to wiggle your feet in and out of, and you'll get to keep your Ariats.


Actually the one size up is the same size (width wise), we measured it on Friday when I first went in. I must have gone back and fourth between the two 50 times putting my foot in and taking it out, while in the store. And the one size up (for depth) is a lot bigger and really not that much different/less bulky than my big chunky ones that I have right now.

The biggest reason why I like these new stirrups is because they are so much less bulky, cover a lot less surface area on your foot and are more comfy. I could see the advantage right away when I rode on Sat and Sunday. The only thing is that these stirrups are meant for a shank boot. 

After riding in them on Sat and Sunday, I quickly realized that I much prefer a stirrup that covers less surface area on my foot. The old chunky ones cover too much IMO. 

I think what I will do is, I will keep the stirrups, because if I do infact get a pair of shank boots down the road, well then, I have the perfect stirrup for it. I'm still contemplating on just getting a shank boot right now. I think curiosity is what's getting me because I've never ridden in a true leather riding boot before with a leather sole, so I don't know how the experience is compared to a rubber sole boot. And it's not like you can buy the boot to try and return it if you don't like it.


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## carshon

Proper riding boots are in the eye of the beholder! My husband rides in "true" riding boots with a slim very smooth sole. Not good for walking as he feels the rocks and can slide on wet pavement.

I wear Ariat's with a little bit of tread. My feet slip easily in and out of my stirrups.

I used to wear Fat Baby boots but the tread was too aggressive and I did not feel safe with how the "stuck" in the stirrups. But I see a lot of people that ride in these boots.

Remember she is a sales person and does not want you to return what you purchased from her.


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## Hoofpic

I learned a valuable lesson. 

My first and biggest mistake was (when I bought my big chunky stirrups), I bought them to fit my big old work boots with composite toes. Huge mistake. I've always planned on buying a pair of proper boots to ride in, I should have done it BEFORE buying those stirrups. Because when I rode in my big stirrups with my work boots, they were perfect. But once I got the Ariats, then the stirrups were too big.


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> Proper riding boots are in the eye of the beholder! My husband rides in "true" riding boots with a slim very smooth sole. Not good for walking as he feels the rocks and can slide on wet pavement.
> 
> I wear Ariat's with a little bit of tread. My feet slip easily in and out of my stirrups.
> 
> I used to wear Fat Baby boots but the tread was too aggressive and I did not feel safe with how the "stuck" in the stirrups. But I see a lot of people that ride in these boots.


Having to change in and out of the riding boots would be the biggest nousense IMO.



> Remember she is a sales person and does not want you to return what you purchased from her.


And that is not someone who I want to support and give my business to. In fact, I most likely won't ever go back to her store again (despite it being the closest tack store to our barn). She knows that I don't know very much about stirrups, saddles and boots, so instead of suggesting me a flat style stirrup, she would rather turn it around and try to sell me her Rio Mercedez boots on clearance. Which she just about did! But I just had a bad feeling afterwards and I decline to buy them. And no I will not be calling her back in two weeks to see what her new styles are like. She kept telling me to, but why would I go back to buy boots from you?

She is so against laced boots and claims that Ariats aren't even a riding boot and should never be used in the saddle. She wants me to buy new leather riding boots from her. All she had to do was, tell me that (because my Ariat is a flat carbon rubber sole), that I would need a flat style stirrup and that my new stirrup needs a shank boot. Obviously, I had no clue about stirrups coming in different styles, I thought they were all flat bottoms. It wasn't until the manager at Lamlies last night told me. But no, all she did was talk down on Ariats and laced boots in general and how I should only ever ride in leather boots. 

The manager last night at Lammlies tells me that Ariats are completely suitable for riding, they sell a lot of them, and I don't need to buy leather riding boots if I'm happy with my Ariats. He says its a preference thing. But he said, if I want to use my new stirrups, I would need to buy a shank boot because my Ariats aren't the right shoe for it.


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## greentree

I just don't see how those stirrups can be too big. Unless your entire leg can slide through there.... This is why we train our bodies to keep our heels DOWN, and why we put more weight in the stirrup as we go faster. If your foot is slidinf forward, then you need more weight in the stirrup!!! Not smaller stirrups or different boots.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I just don't see how those stirrups can be too big. Unless your entire leg can slide through there.... This is why we train our bodies to keep our heels DOWN, and why we put more weight in the stirrup as we go faster. If your foot is slidinf forward, then you need more weight in the stirrup!!! Not smaller stirrups or different boots.


I don't get it either but my big stirrups are too big for my Ariats. 

I do keep as much weight as I can in my stirrups. But with my Ariats and those stirrups, I will post in them and next thing you know the stirrups are right in the middle of my foot, almost to my heal. Then it puts uncomfortable pressure on my front ankles and then of course causes me to lean forward. 

I found that, because of a lot less surface area on the new stirrups, it was so much easier and effortless to keep my heels down in the new stirrups. Night and day difference.

The good thing about the big stirrups is that it's easy for me to put my feet in and take them out. No need to wiggle my feet.

I'm going to ride today and I think what I will do is put my old stirrups back on, and ride again just so I can compare again to the ride on Saturday.


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## Dehda01

Some western stirrups are lady sized stirrups- particularly barrel stirrups because you don't want to bump a barrel. Depends on the stirrups. They can range from 4.5"-5.5"

My husband has had some stirrups be too small for his feet on some poorer quality saddles we have had come through on some training horses. He has size 12 boots. His circle y saddle and my crates have good wide stirrups , but we did buy bigger stirrups for his winter boots because they are wide. I need a 4.75". I can't have a 4.5" stirrup. My husband needs at least a 5". His winter stirrups are 5.5".


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> Having to change in and out of the riding boots would be the biggest nousense IMO.


Then I'm full of nonsense. I wear my muck boots out when I plan to ride since I can slip my feet in and out of them with ease. I don't tend to walk around in my riding boots purely so I can make them last as long as humanly possible. I'm cheap and don't want to spend another $100 on a pair of boots. I never showed up in my short boots to work when I was working and riding. I came in my riding clothes since I rode daily, but I had on boots that were comfortable for every day use.

But let me get back on track.

Buying a boot to fit your stirrup is about the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Yes, you needed a proper type of boot to ride in. And while I have never ridden in my terrains (preference) they are useful for riding, particularly with your western saddle. They were a good choice to buy.

Buying half chaps thinking they would take up space in the stirrup was a bad idea. Half chaps are, as stated previously, good for English riders to avoid chaffing when we don't want to wear our tall boots (my tall boots are reserved for shows only, me being cheap since I paid $500 for those suckers). Full chaps would help you grip (half chaps, again, do NOT help with gripping), and would keep you warmer in the frigid Canada winters. I have a pair of chaps I wished I still fit into since they were amazing. Finding a GOOD pair is worthwhile, but to keep you warm and if you needed extra grip (which from the sounds of Fly, it's unlikely you'd truly need them.)

Buying shank boots, which I have NEVER heard a boot called a shank boot (not a Western rider), would be a bad idea.

Exchanging and/or returning the stirrups that are too small would be a good idea. Riding in stirrups that you have to wiggle your foot into is dangerous. I'll ALWAYS go for something massive versus too small.

Learning to keep your heels down would be the best idea, and the cheapest solution all the way around.

I don't know you, clearly, but from all the posts you write, it comes across that while you claim to hate spending money, you sure throw a lot of it around when a solution is so easy and cheap (learn to keep your heels down).

Even when my mare is being a cow, my feet don't go through the stirrups. I keep enough weight in them to keep my irons on the ball of my feet.

Return the half chaps, return the stirrups, don't buy designer boots (those Rio whatevers), don't buy some other $200 pair of boots, just learn to keep your heels down. And ALL of this is resolved by learning that. Every last bit.


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## PoptartShop

Hoofpic said:


> I learned a valuable lesson.
> 
> My first and biggest mistake was (when I bought my big chunky stirrups), I bought them to fit my big old work boots with composite toes. Huge mistake. I've always planned on buying a pair of proper boots to ride in, I should have done it BEFORE buying those stirrups. Because when I rode in my big stirrups with my work boots, they were perfect. But once I got the Ariats, then the stirrups were too big.


Switch the stirrups out then so you can keep your boots, like @3rdTimestheCharm suggested. Problem solved!


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## Prairie

If your foot is moving forward in the stirrup so you end up with the stirrup under the middle of your foot, you are NOT keeping your heels down by putting more weight into your heel. The size of the stirrup has nothing to do with where your foot is ending up---it's all about keeping your weight in the heel so it stays down.


I've ridden in Ariat Terrains and not had any problems with taking my foot out of the stirrup. Hubby even wears his Terrains when he's jackpot roping and he literally bales out of the addle to make winning time.


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## tinyliny

love my Ariat Terrains. they come out of the fillis iron type stirrup beautifully. the only thing I dont' like is that the bottom is not as rigid as other Ariat boots, so the English stirrup can sort of push hard on the bottom of the foot (the ball). I LOVE my Ariat winter boots. they are very firm on the bottom and supportive around the ankle. Ariat just makes one good product after another. been wearing my Ariat cowboy boots for years, too.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic, I think it's time for some pictures. If we all promise to be good, could you post a few pictures (screenshots would be great) of you riding? Not just sitting in your saddle, but actual riding. Then we can really figure out if the stirrup is too big or whatever the issue is.

I have a hunch that you may need to just bring your stirrups up a hole so that you can put more weight on the ball of your foot...but I can't know until I actually see it. And same with everyone else's opinions.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Then I'm full of nonsense. I wear my muck boots out when I plan to ride since I can slip my feet in and out of them with ease. I don't tend to walk around in my riding boots purely so I can make them last as long as humanly possible. I'm cheap and don't want to spend another $100 on a pair of boots. I never showed up in my short boots to work when I was working and riding. I came in my riding clothes since I rode daily, but I had on boots that were comfortable for every day use.
> 
> But let me get back on track.
> 
> Buying a boot to fit your stirrup is about the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Yes, you needed a proper type of boot to ride in. And while I have never ridden in my terrains (preference) they are useful for riding, particularly with your western saddle. They were a good choice to buy.
> 
> Buying half chaps thinking they would take up space in the stirrup was a bad idea. Half chaps are, as stated previously, good for English riders to avoid chaffing when we don't want to wear our tall boots (my tall boots are reserved for shows only, me being cheap since I paid $500 for those suckers). Full chaps would help you grip (half chaps, again, do NOT help with gripping), and would keep you warmer in the frigid Canada winters. I have a pair of chaps I wished I still fit into since they were amazing. Finding a GOOD pair is worthwhile, but to keep you warm and if you needed extra grip (which from the sounds of Fly, it's unlikely you'd truly need them.)
> 
> Buying shank boots, which I have NEVER heard a boot called a shank boot (not a Western rider), would be a bad idea.
> 
> Exchanging and/or returning the stirrups that are too small would be a good idea. Riding in stirrups that you have to wiggle your foot into is dangerous. I'll ALWAYS go for something massive versus too small.
> 
> Learning to keep your heels down would be the best idea, and the cheapest solution all the way around.
> 
> I don't know you, clearly, but from all the posts you write, it comes across that while you claim to hate spending money, you sure throw a lot of it around when a solution is so easy and cheap (learn to keep your heels down).
> 
> Even when my mare is being a cow, my feet don't go through the stirrups. I keep enough weight in them to keep my irons on the ball of my feet.
> 
> Return the half chaps, return the stirrups, don't buy designer boots (those Rio whatevers), don't buy some other $200 pair of boots, just learn to keep your heels down. And ALL of this is resolved by learning that. Every last bit.


Okay I will do that. I will return the half chaps, I will not buy leather boots and will go back to my old chunky stirrups. I will hold onto the new stirrups for now and perhaps sell them. I really like how light they are.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Well I brought the saddle to her with the new stirrups on, she told me to sit in the saddle and put my feet in the stirrups. She said that the new stirrups aren't too small and if I have to wiggle my feet a bit to get them in and out, then it's the boots, not the stirrups. Hence why she told me to buy proper riding boots :neutral:


That has to be the greatest sales pitch ever......If the stirrups don't fit, it's your boots not the stirrups! Think about it a second, you have boots you can ride in, all you want it stirrups that fit.





Hoofpic said:


> I don't get it either but my big stirrups are too big for my Ariats.
> 
> I do keep as much weight as I can in my stirrups. But with my Ariats and those stirrups, I will post in them and next thing you know the stirrups are right in the middle of my foot, almost to my heal. Then it puts uncomfortable pressure on my front ankles and then of course causes me to lean forward.
> 
> I found that, because of a lot less surface area on the new stirrups, it was so much easier and effortless to keep my heels down in the new stirrups. Night and day difference.
> 
> The good thing about the big stirrups is that it's easy for me to put my feet in and take them out. No need to wiggle my feet.
> 
> I'm going to ride today and I think what I will do is put my old stirrups back on, and ride again just so I can compare again to the ride on Saturday.


I still think you need to fix your riding, rather than faffing about with boots and stirrups. There is ZERO reason that this should be happening, so like the majority of people have said, work on getting your legs right, weight in stirrups, maybe you need to ride a hole shorter for a while so you can do that. Maybe you are leaning forward and letting your toe drop and that cause the stirrup to slip, rather than the other way around.

Try doing some riding without stirrups, that will lengthen your leg. 


ETA: This whole thing about stirrups designed for a shanked boot is a totally new one in me
Save
Save​


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Is she just trying to upsell me or do I really need leather boots for riding?


 I think she sees you coming, and sees dollar signs


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## Hoofpic

I will say though (perhaps I could benefit from the half chaps?), when I tried them on last night I found them to be quite comfortable. It definitely took away all the excess baggage in my jeans from the knee down. I would be curious riding in these.


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Switch the stirrups out then so you can keep your boots, like @3rdTimestheCharm suggested. Problem solved!


I'm going to keep using my Ariats. I think the chances of my laces getting caught up are very slim and I shouldn't have to worry about it being a safety risk.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> If your foot is moving forward in the stirrup so you end up with the stirrup under the middle of your foot, you are NOT keeping your heels down by putting more weight into your heel. The size of the stirrup has nothing to do with where your foot is ending up---it's all about keeping your weight in the heel so it stays down.
> 
> 
> I've ridden in Ariat Terrains and not had any problems with taking my foot out of the stirrup. Hubby even wears his Terrains when he's jackpot roping and he literally bales out of the addle to make winning time.


I know, but what I'm saying is that after riding in the new thin stirrups, I found it much easier to keep my heels down due to the much smaller surface area that the stirrup comes in contact with my feet.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I will say though (perhaps I could benefit from the half chaps?), when I tried them on last night I found them to be quite comfortable. It definitely took away all the excess baggage in my jeans from the knee down. I would be curious riding in these.


Half chaps in Western are not traditional, purely cosmetic, totally personal choice, as I say I wear mine in the winter because they are a little warmer. In English riding they stop your leg getting pinched by the stirrup leather.

They WILL not:

Improve your leg position
Make you a better rider
Improve your grip

They MAY

Make you feel better
Keep the draft out in the winter.

Absolutely up to you, but they are not a cure for anything, the ONLY single reason that I suggested them in the first place was to cover the laces on your Ariats, if you were worried. If you like them, wear them...it is that simple


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## Tazzie

If you want to spend your money for something that is of little use to you, then go for it. I think 6gunkid is right. You're a walking bank to the tack shop lady.

Horses are expensive enough as it is without running around and buying stuff you think will be the answer to everything. Sometimes it can help, sometimes it's a waste of money.

Buying better riding boots (the terrains) was wise because they are meant to ride in. Your clunky work boots were not.

Half chaps are not as well received in Western riding since it isn't traditional. I love my half chaps, but I'm also a Dressage rider. I rode without them last night to reaffirm to my mare that she is NOT allowed to be a butt head no matter who is riding her (she attempted to take off with my husband aboard) and wished I'd taken the few seconds it takes to put them on. I'm also not riding in jeans or the like, and my summer riding pants are quite thin (hello Kentucky summers.) The provide protection for my lower leg.

I rode in the same saddle from the time I broke her at 3 until just this past spring when we got a better saddle to fit her. The irons I got came with a bridle I bought. I got them partially for cosmetic reasons (they are blue) and partially because I wanted to try the jointed stirrups (something English riders have but I don't think Western riders do.) The bridle was cheap and fit my mare better than the bridle I bought her when she was a baby (it was on sale and I had hopes.)

Buying new items because they wear out (boots) or because they are ill fitting (bridles, etc) is one thing. Changing out stirrups because you can't keep your feet from sliding through is another. I agree with the others. I'm betting you need to come up a hole. I'm sure you want the look of the longer leg, but if you can't maintain a heels down leg, then they are too long. It's not failure to bring them up. It's being SAFE.

Stop trying to buy magical products you think will make it all better. The ONLY thing that is going to make this situation better, is for you to put your tush in that saddle and RIDE.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Half chaps in Western are not traditional, purely cosmetic, totally personal choice, as I say I wear mine in the winter because they are a little warmer. In English riding they stop your leg getting pinched by the stirrup leather.
> 
> They WILL not:
> 
> Improve your leg position
> Make you a better rider
> Improve your grip
> 
> They MAY
> 
> Make you feel better
> Keep the draft out in the winter.
> 
> Absolutely up to you, but they are not a cure for anything, the ONLY single reason that I suggested them in the first place was to cover the laces on your Ariats, if you were worried. If you like them, wear them...it is that simple


That is another reason why I like the half chaps, to cover up the laces. But then again, what are the odds of laces getting caught up. With my big stirrups (because the sides are so thick), they do put annoying pressure on the inner ankles at times from time to time. 

I'm going to try them out today in my big stirrups. The manager yesterday said it's okay for me to get them dirty, just no rips in in the chaps if I want to refund them. I have them, so I might as well try it out to see how I like them.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> I think she sees you coming, and sees dollar signs


Yes and I will never return to her store again. The manager at Lamlies last night was someone who I would want to buy from. He didn't say that I "needed" leather boots, or this and that. I know the Ariats are good and safe riding boots, otherwise it wouldn't be selling so well. There are lots of people who ride with laces and it hasn't been an issue.

The argument at the store that the owner at the tack shop was saying, was that if you ever need to get your foot out in an emergency, with pull on boots...you just slip out of them. But with laces, (if you aren't able to access those laces from them getting caught up in something), you would need to cut the fender off and chances are you will be dragged. She said that she's seen it a hundred times in her lifetime. But really, how common is this to happen?


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Hoofpic, I think it's time for some pictures. If we all promise to be good, could you post a few pictures (screenshots would be great) of you riding? Not just sitting in your saddle, but actual riding. Then we can really figure out if the stirrup is too big or whatever the issue is.
> 
> I have a hunch that you may need to just bring your stirrups up a hole so that you can put more weight on the ball of your foot...but I can't know until I actually see it. And same with everyone else's opinions.


Sure, I will put my old stirrups back on today and ride and take a video. A video will be much easier than pictures. But I will take pictures of my feet in the stirrups.

Remember though, I already did bring my stirrups up a hole. They were too long when I first got the saddle but I brought it up a hole and it was much better. But I will leave them for now and see what you guys think.


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## anndankev

Was there a link to the Rio Mercedes boots?

I did find them, well Rios of Mercedes boots online, I did not see prices. I did see current in-stock boots and they look flashy, but like they are 'real' riding boots. I also saw a gallery which had a lot of very, very flashy boots with names of celebrities who they were made for.... I imagine they are best for Country Music stars.

My interest is because I have a pair of very used, with a repair or two as well as likely been thru a number of thrift shop Rios of Raymondville boots. I really like them, am still in process of reconditioning with Ray Holes Rawhide cream, am about to apply some Sno-seal beeswax as a final water proofing before wearing them.

They are a cream/bone color, tall stovepipe, plain leather (no fancy stitching, embossings, inlays, colors, or anything) with a low roper type heel. The deal was for $10 because the seller said: "Some idiot put a price tag on the vamp of the right one". 

When I google Rios of Raymondsville I get information on a now defunct company from Texas with a bootmaker of Abraham Rios. His boots are on the top 25 custom bootmakers list in the Texas Monthly June 2002 edition.



> *RAYMONDVILLE*
> 
> _*El Vaquero Boots*
> 722 E. Norman
> 956—689-3469_
> _ Ignacio “Nacho” Martinez, another unsung elder, was part of the team that built boots for President Dwight D. Eisenhower for the dedication ceremony for Falcon Dam, in 1954. After spending most of his career at Raymondville’s now-defunct Rios Boots, he currently works out of his garage with his son, Joe. Specializes in: Flaming-red rose inlays, intricate braided-lace piping, and lizard scallops. Prices start at: $300. Turnaround time: Six to eight weeks. Has made boots for: Armstrongs, Klebergs, Yturrias, and other ranching elites._
> _*Armando’s Boot Company*
> 169 N. Seventh
> 956-689-3521_
> _ *Abraham Rios once had Raymondville’s biggest shop*, serving area ranches like the King Ranch. Today his nephew Armando Duarte Rios puts his 45 years of experience into each and every boot. Specializes in: Fancy inlays and nimble stitching up to ten rows wide. Prices start at: $420. Turnaround time: Eight to ten weeks. Has made boots for: Former governor Mark White; former Speaker of the House Gib Lewis; actors Sean Penn and Peter Coyote; country singer Willie Nelson._


Since the time I first heard of these boots I've had my eye out for them. I don't know for sure, but do not think they are related to the Mercedes company. But this talk of them has brought it to mind again.

As far as chaps or half chaps, and riding western style goes. Or at least in a saddle with western style fenders. I regularly wear Justin or Ariat pull on ropers. They are good boots, but sometimes with some saddles the tops occasionally 'catch' on the bottom of the fender. For that reason I like to wear half chaps, the style with the velcro pull tabs is what I am accustomed to. This is over top of the boots. 

Better is a pair of taller boots, hence why I picked up the Rios of Raymondsville boots. 

I would not be comfortable at all wearing the Ariat Terrains for riding without half-chaps as they are too short for my liking, don't they expose the ankle? Like hiking boots?

Does anyone else here have a pair or know anything about of Rios of Raymondsville boots?


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## 6gun Kid

anndankev said:


> Does anyone else here have a pair or know anything about of Rios of Raymondsville boots?
> 
> View attachment 831146
> View attachment 831154


 Not to hijack the thread, but yes, I have heard of and owned a RoR's . There one fault (like every other small/custom boot shop) is they couldn't price competitively. With Justin owning most brands out there, they set the market.


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## anndankev

Thanks for that 6Gun. Maybe I should have asked on a new thread.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> That is another reason why I like the half chaps, to cover up the laces. But then again, what are the odds of laces getting caught up. With my big stirrups (because the sides are so thick), they do put annoying pressure on the inner ankles at times from time to time.



How are the stirrups putting pressure on your inner ankles? That makes no sense if you have put your foot in the stirrup with the toes forward or just slightly pointed out and your heels down. 


In over 5 decades of being around horses and riding, I've never seen anybody get hung up by the laces. Also, if you are riding western why buy half chaps which are for English disciplines? A good pair of Western leather chaps will last for many years if you take care of them and would be warmer---my chaps are at lest 30 years old and hubby's are even older, despite both of us wearing them most of the winters and when riding in heavy brush with thorns.


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## tinyliny

@Prairie
what kind of chaps do you have? rough out shotgun chaps? custom made or off the shelf?


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## PoptartShop

I have laces on my boots, and they've never bothered me. I do wear half-chaps though and I ride English.


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## Dehda01

I have seen people get dragged but it was OFTEN because their foot was home in the stirrup AND SLIPPED FORWARD during a spook that then escalated. Loosing the boot wouldn't have saved them. Sometimes the shoe fell off laced or not with enough weight hanging off of it. They should have been riding with better equitation, it was a bad situation, bad spook and accident happen...


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## Hoofpic

anndankev said:


> Was there a link to the Rio Mercedes boots?
> 
> I did find them, well Rios of Mercedes boots online, I did not see prices. I did see current in-stock boots and they look flashy, but like they are 'real' riding boots. I also saw a gallery which had a lot of very, very flashy boots with names of celebrities who they were made for.... I imagine they are best for Country Music stars.


Here you go, these are the Rio boots on clearance for $200cdn right now.

R9003 :: Rios of Mercedes

The owner at the store said that she is not getting anymore in until the drop goes back up because right now they would be $900cdn if she were to bring them in.

Then why is she clearing out her 1 pair left for $200? I don't get it. 

Yes the Ariat Terrains expose the ankle.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Here you go, these are the Rio boots on clearance for $200cdn right now.
> 
> R9003 :: Rios of Mercedes
> 
> The owner at the store said that she is not getting anymore in until the drop goes back up because right now they would be $900cdn if she were to bring them in.
> 
> Then why is she clearing out her 1 pair left for $200? I don't get it.



Because it is one pair, one size. The chances of more than a couple of people wearing that size walking into the store wanting that boot is unlikely. So, being a salesperson, she will find a gullible person to talk into buying them. Clothing markup is about 1000% so she will still make money.You have probably bought enough stuff from that store for them to know you have money and can be easily convinced to buy just about anything. A salesperson's dream is an inexperienced customer who doesn't know what he really needs and can't say "no".


You should take a boarder/horse friend with you when you shop, someone who cannot get talked into unnecessary stuff.


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## paintedpastures

Nice looking boots & cheap for ostrich !!!


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## Prairie

Off the shelf that I bought at a Western store going out of business over 30 years ago. Roughout shotgun style---despite being worn for decades in all weather conditions 365 days a year checking cattle, I've ever had to replace the zippers.


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> Because it is one pair, one size. The chances of more than a couple of people wearing that size walking into the store wanting that boot is unlikely. So, being a salesperson, she will find a gullible person to talk into buying them. Clothing markup is about 1000% so she will still make money.You have probably bought enough stuff from that store for them to know you have money and can be easily convinced to buy just about anything. A salesperson's dream is an inexperienced customer who doesn't know what he really needs and can't say "no".
> 
> 
> You should take a boarder/horse friend with you when you shop, someone who cannot get talked into unnecessary stuff.


Oh, so are you saying that the Rio's aren't that popular of a boot? She said if she was to get a new set of Rio's it would be $900cdn after the exchange. How would that make sense? Something has to be wrong with those boots if she is selling them for $200cdn.


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## Hoofpic

I didn't ride today, it's been raining all day and my trainer has been doing lessons all day. I have a lesson on Thursday and I will just record it then so you guys can see me in my old big stirrups (I put them back on today). 

So I just gave Fly a good top to bottom grooming and a treat. These days are still very important.

Here is a pic of my Ariat's in my new stirrups. As you can see, it's not nearly as large as my big ones. 

I think I feel more comfortable with the bigger ones.

I will also take a pic of my new half chaps with my Ariat's on.

I noticed today that a couple of the kids there (who do lessons with my trainer) ride in half chaps, but they ride English. If I keep these half chaps, will I look like a loser since I ride Western? I will try them out on Thursday. I'm curious as to what my trainer will think.

This may look like enough space on the sides but it's not. There is excess pressure on the sides of my boot due to the boot being a flat sole and the stirrup is not.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Oh, so are you saying that the Rio's aren't that popular of a boot? She said if she was to get a new set of Rio's it would be $900cdn after the exchange. How would that make sense? Something has to be wrong with those boots if she is selling them for $200cdn.


Nothing HAS to be wrong with them, they are just end of line, she wants to get rid of them to make room for new stock, it hs already been pointed out that she will still make a profit on them.



Hoofpic said:


> I noticed today that a couple of the kids there (who do lessons with my trainer) ride in half chaps, but they ride English. If I keep these half chaps, will I look like a loser since I ride Western? I will try them out on Thursday. I'm curious as to what my trainer will think.


It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks on this one what do YOU think? if you like them and they make you feel good, wear them. If you don't like them, take them back....it really is a non issue, they are absolutely completely totally a cosmetic thing, they wont change your riding in any way at all.

Doesn't matter what anyone thinks, trainer, other people, this one you can totally go on how you feel.
Save​


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Nothing HAS to be wrong with them, they are just end of line, she wants to get rid of them to make room for new stock, it hs already been pointed out that she will still make a profit on them.


Oh okay I see. Either way, it sounds like I'm not missing out on much by not buying them.



> It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks on this one what do YOU think? if you like them and they make you feel good, wear them. If you don't like them, take them back....it really is a non issue, they are absolutely completely totally a cosmetic thing, they wont change your riding in any way at all.
> 
> Doesn't matter what anyone thinks, trainer, other people, this one you can totally go on how you feel.
> Save​


How do I feel? Well I won't know forsure until I ride with the half chaps on, but just from putting them on I really like them.


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## greentree

1\2 chaps are to keep your pants from getti g dirty where they contact the horse in an English saddle. The fenders on a western saddle generally prevent this. If there is still a problem, jeans can be tucked into western boots. 

Most English riders used to wear tall hunt boots, but they got expensive, and manufacturers came out with multipurpose work boots(Ariat Terrains) and half chaps.


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## anndankev

Hoofpic said:


> Here you go, these are the Rio boots on clearance for $200cdn right now.
> 
> R9003 :: Rios of Mercedes ...












Well oh well, have to admit I like them ... a lot. :hide:

I have a pair of full quill Justin Ropers they are so comfy, the leather is extremely soft and giving to how my foot moves. Problem was they cost so much (even at a less than half-price sale) that I saved them 'for good', not for everyday going to the barn. Had them for years and only wore them a handful of times.

Then last year (another eBay find) got a pair of ostrich, but not full quill, used Justin Ropers. That helped the situation, and I love these new ones too. I wore the new ones to a doctor appointment, and 2 Doctors remarked on the nice boots!

Back to the Rios of Mercedes. Likely well worth the price, maybe a going out of style for the showring. That maybe another reason for the lower price.

I wonder if a sturdier/heavier leather would be better for you though. How much could you get a pair of Ariat pull on ropers for?

Also about the colorful stitching. It is not overboard, and certainly not excessive if you are in the real west. I am not - I'm in Ohio, and over the last decade or two English has become the predominant riding style here. I am in the minority with my western style anymore. Fancy western stitching makes me a bit more 'noticeable' than a plain or smooth boot. 

Would you feel self-conscientious wearing flamboyant boots? If so, then no reason to get a pair. You have enough to think about learning horsemanship to bother with that.



Whinnie said:


> Because it is one pair, one size. The chances of more than a couple of people wearing that size walking into the store wanting that boot is unlikely....



Yes. Also boot makers, hat makers, show clothes makers, saddle blanket makers, saddle makers, and all try to keep styles ever changing so that every season every person showing will need to buy something new to keep up with trends.

Like jewelry at department store counters, it always seems to be 50% to 70% off retail price. So are the high priced exotic boots frequently on sale for great markdowns.



paintedpastures said:


> Nice looking boots & cheap for ostrich !!!


:iagree:


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## Tazzie

If they make you happy, then keep the half chaps. If you'll be self conscience about them, then don't. Like @anndankev said, you have enough to think about other than if you stand out wearing them (or fancy boots.)

Far as boots for riding... I've had the same zip up Ariats for 4 years, and I intend to get as much if not more use out of them. The half chaps I've only had about 2 years? I think? Because the ones I originally got didn't fit anymore. And my tall boots are less than a year old because I had to replace my original tall boots; I lost a ton of weight, in the calves even, and they no longer fit. My husband made me get new ones since the other ones were disgustingly big in the calf. He also just made me replace my every day boots that I've had 3 years because I'd totally worn them out. I kept pushing it off until he said enough. I don't care to spend money on things I don't feel I need. I just think buying boots to fit stirrups are a bad choice. The stirrup should always be made to fit the boot you are wearing to ride (unless you're riding in bad footwear, but in this case you aren't.)

As for style, if you were to ever show it'd most likely be in the local schooling show rings. And let me tell you about our local schooling show that I'm on the committee for. It may as well be a time capsule. We had rust colored breaches and green hunt coats. We had some pretty interesting Western pleasure outfits. These people just go out to have fun, and wear whatever they had handy. Those boots are on sale since it's the end of the season and the latest thing will be coming out. Unless you're showing at the top level, you do not need to follow trends. I think that woman saw you as a quick sale. You'd already looked at those boots. She knew you had interest. Now the price has magically dropped and she says you need them for the stirrups she says are fine for you. She has you hook, line and sinker buddy.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Here you go, these are the Rio boots on clearance for $200cdn right now.
> 
> R9003 :: Rios of Mercedes
> 
> The owner at the store said that she is not getting anymore in until the drop goes back up because right now they would be $900cdn if she were to bring them in.
> 
> Then why is she clearing out her 1 pair left for $200? I don't get it.
> 
> Yes the Ariat Terrains expose the ankle.


Ok dude, I already told you this about a hunnert pages back those are *NOT *riding boots, but church/dance hall/night on the town/showring boots.
Who cares what others think?Fact of the matter is I don't really care if you ride in a tutu and ballet slippers, but do it because it what makes you comfortable and happy, not because some sales person or fellow boarder tells you to do. 
I ride in 4" monels so my foot is always in the "home" position. So I wear a 2 1/2" riding heel. But my heel is still dropped.


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## natisha

Whenever I see a post here by 6Gun my first thought is, "Uh oh, Dad's here.":wink:


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## Dehda01

Riding with 4"monels also means there less room for your foot to move forward. My foot is a solid 4.5" wide with a boot, I can't pull it off and like a roomier stirrup personally.


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## 6gun Kid

Dehda01 said:


> Riding with 4"monels also means there less room for your foot to move forward. My foot is a solid 4.5" wide with a boot, I can't pull it off and like a roomier stirrup personally.


 I went from oxbows to Monels, so from one extreme to the other!


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## PoptartShop

@6GunKid do your thing. I agree with @natisha lol. 

So...any pictures????


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## Dehda01

6gun Kid said:


> I went from oxbows to Monels, so from one extreme to the other!


Yea. I always felt unstable in oxbows. Prefer monels much better. Really like slanted stirrups too!


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## bsms

Dehda01 said:


> I have seen people get dragged but it was OFTEN because their foot was home in the stirrup AND SLIPPED FORWARD during a spook that then escalated...


I've come off once, using an English saddle. I was trying to dismount at the time, which meant my stirrup was at the ball of my foot. I normally use the home position, but use the ball of foot when dismounting. Mia had bolted. I had stopped her. But I tried to dismount without settling her, which was a bad idea. She did a small rear, spun 180 and leaped across a bunch of rocks. I must have come off at the start of the leap.

Only one foot was in the stirrup at the time. There was a very clear and distinct (and dark) bruise on my foot. Based on that, I know that during the excitement, my foot slid in until the heel of my cowboy boot stopped it. Then my foot and the stirrup did a brute force disconnect...

When things get exciting, your foot will go wherever it goes in a stirrup. That is part of why I always have worn cowboy boots, and make sure my stirrup is sized and shaped so my foot CANNOT go all the way thru. I also like my riding boots a looser than my 'go to church' boots. I want my feet to be able to slide out easily. I don't care if the horse runs off with my boot, provided I'm not still in it!

The home position was just about universal in the Old West. 










It was taught by the US Cavalry. It is common in sports that involved aggressive riding - polo, steeplechase, cutting, roping, barrel racing. It is looked down on in dressage and WP - two sports that emphasize control, slower speeds and collection. VS Littauer, in the Showjumping Hall of Fame, recommended it. Harry Chamberlin, who largely wrote the Cavalry's manual on equitation, considered it critical for anything other than schooling an already trained horse.










It does not, in any way, prevent the heels from being down:



















"Heels down" should come from one's weight flowing uninterrupted past the knees and in to the heels. Doing so means a sudden stop will drive you deeper into the saddle and stirrups rather than pitching you forward. It has nothing to do with the shape of the stirrup - I've done it in 2 bar English, 4 bar Australian and multiple western stirrups.

The home position is more commonly seen in western riding now than in English. Some say the folks I'm citing are out of date, that we "know more" than they did. I think the difference is that people used to spend more time riding outdoors, and now there is much more emphasis on riding in an arena.

I'm not suggesting anyone has to use the home position. Folks should use what works for them. But the home position was taught by people who did rough riding outdoors. It is still very common in western riding - maybe over 50%. It should not be ruled out, nor can I find any indication it is more dangerous. If it were more dangerous, folks riding rough would avoid it instead of adopting it....


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## Hoofpic

anndankev said:


> Well oh well, have to admit I like them ... a lot. :hide:


It is definitely a nice boot, pretty flashy IMO but sharp looking. But again, I see it more of a boot one would wear to shows or a night out in the town lol. A boot like that would be high maintenance to keep clean and conditioned would it not?



> I have a pair of full quill Justin Ropers they are so comfy, the leather is extremely soft and giving to how my foot moves. Problem was they cost so much (even at a less than half-price sale) that I saved them 'for good', not for everyday going to the barn. Had them for years and only wore them a handful of times.
> 
> Then last year (another eBay find) got a pair of ostrich, but not full quill, used Justin Ropers. That helped the situation, and I love these new ones too. I wore the new ones to a doctor appointment, and 2 Doctors remarked on the nice boots!
> 
> Back to the Rios of Mercedes. Likely well worth the price, maybe a going out of style for the showring. That maybe another reason for the lower price.
> 
> I wonder if a sturdier/heavier leather would be better for you though. How much could you get a pair of Ariat pull on ropers for?
> 
> Also about the colorful stitching. It is not overboard, and certainly not excessive if you are in the real west. I am not - I'm in Ohio, and over the last decade or two English has become the predominant riding style here. I am in the minority with my western style anymore. Fancy western stitching makes me a bit more 'noticeable' than a plain or smooth boot.
> 
> Would you feel self-conscientious wearing flamboyant boots? If so, then no reason to get a pair. You have enough to think about learning horsemanship to bother with that.


Would ropers fit in the new stirrups though? (If I was to go back to them again). Are the soles on roper boots flat or like a shank boot where the ball of the foot is like a ball?

Ariats here are about $300cdn. When I was at Lammlies a couple nights ago, the manager was showing me the pair of Ariats that he has. They were these. He said they are now going on 5 years now and he is just replacing the insole on it. But he said it won't work in my new stirrups (if I was to use them) because I need a shank boot. 



> Yes. Also boot makers, hat makers, show clothes makers, saddle blanket makers, saddle makers, and all try to keep styles ever changing so that every season every person showing will need to buy something new to keep up with trends.
> 
> Like jewelry at department store counters, it always seems to be 50% to 70% off retail price. So are the high priced exotic boots frequently on sale for great markdowns.
> :iagree:


Oh I see. So the Rio's for $200 at the store is a good deal but not smokin' hot as the owner claims them to be. Otherwise, they would have sold long ago. They've been sitting on the shelf for like 4+ months.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Ok dude, I already told you this about a hunnert pages back those are *NOT *riding boots, but church/dance hall/night on the town/showring boots.
> Who cares what others think?Fact of the matter is I don't really care if you ride in a tutu and ballet slippers, but do it because it what makes you comfortable and happy, not because some sales person or fellow boarder tells you to do.
> I ride in 4" monels so my foot is always in the "home" position. So I wear a 2 1/2" riding heel. But my heel is still dropped.


I remember you mentioning that. I always had a feeling that it was a boot more for a night out in the town, than in the saddle. I bet the Rio's (despite what the owner says about them being super durable), last very long when ridden in them. I bet those Dan's Post boots outlast them, despite the boot being made in China.


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## Dehda01

bsms said:


> I've come off once, using an English saddle. I was trying to dismount at the time, which meant my stirrup was at the ball of my foot. I normally use the home position, but use the ball of foot when dismounting. Mia had bolted. I had stopped her. But I tried to dismount without settling her, which was a bad idea. She did a small rear, spun 180 and leaped across a bunch of rocks. I must have come off at the start of the leap.
> 
> Only one foot was in the stirrup at the time. There was a very clear and distinct (and dark) bruise on my foot. Based on that, I know that during the excitement, my foot slid in until the heel of my cowboy boot stopped it. Then my foot and the stirrup did a brute force disconnect...
> 
> When things get exciting, your foot will go wherever it goes in a stirrup. That is part of why I always have worn cowboy boots, and make sure my stirrup is sized and shaped so my foot CANNOT go all the way thru. I also like my riding boots a looser than my 'go to church' boots. I want my feet to be able to slide out easily. I don't care if the horse runs off with my boot, provided I'm not still in it!
> 
> The home position was just about universal in the Old West.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was taught by the US Cavalry. It is common in sports that involved aggressive riding - polo, steeplechase, cutting, roping, barrel racing. It is looked down on in dressage and WP - two sports that emphasize control, slower speeds and collection. VS Littauer, in the Showjumping Hall of Fame, recommended it. Harry Chamberlin, who largely wrote the Cavalry's manual on equitation, considered it critical for anything other than schooling an already trained horse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does not, in any way, prevent the heels from being down:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Heels down" should come from one's weight flowing uninterrupted past the knees and in to the heels. Doing so means a sudden stop will drive you deeper into the saddle and stirrups rather than pitching you forward. It has nothing to do with the shape of the stirrup - I've done it in 2 bar English, 4 bar Australian and multiple western stirrups.
> 
> The home position is more commonly seen in western riding now than in English. Some say the folks I'm citing are out of date, that we "know more" than they did. I think the difference is that people used to spend more time riding outdoors, and now there is much more emphasis on riding in an arena.
> 
> I'm not suggesting anyone has to use the home position. Folks should use what works for them. But the home position was taught by people who did rough riding outdoors. It is still very common in western riding - maybe over 50%. It should not be ruled out, nor can I find any indication it is more dangerous. If it were more dangerous, folks riding rough would avoid it instead of adopting it....


Riding with your foot home makes it so that you can't use your ankle and knee as a shock absorber. It makes you ride in a more defensive position. I can see the tension through the hip, knee and ankle of all riders pictures. In heavy duty riding, such as breaking young stock, extreme cow work, riding difficult terrain and the such it can be helpful. But using the body as a shock absorber is infinitely better in most circumstances. Equitation has come forward so much in last 100 years. Look at how reining horses used to be hauled up vs now. And forward seat jumping vs the Italian seat.


----------



## Prairie

The truth, once again, on how long an item lasts depends on mainly one thing----assuming it's not a piece of junk, take care of your equipment and it will last a long time! 


The issue with the new stirrups is not that they're too small--ox-bows are the wrong SHAPE for Ariat terrains since they have flat soles.


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## Dehda01

Vs Italian seat


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> The truth, once again, on how long an item lasts depends on mainly one thing----assuming it's not a piece of junk, take care of your equipment and it will last a long time!
> 
> 
> The issue with the new stirrups is not that they're too small--ox-bows are the wrong SHAPE for Ariat terrains since they have flat soles.


Correct and I wish I had known this prior to buying them. It would have been nice if the owner at the store could have at least mentioned it to me, instead of just trying to endlessly tell me that I shouldn't be riding in lace boots and that Ariat's aren't proper boots for riding etc, and buying new boots is the only solution (which it's not). :-|


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## Golden Horse

It would be helpful to Hoofpic if people let him learn how to ride PROPERLY, as his trainer appears to be teaching him, and adopt proper foot position, proper stirrup placement and all that good stuff that beginners really should get solid on, before making up their own style, or adapting 'proper equitation' to what ever suits them.

Thing is Hoofpic, this is why I have always been worried about you bringing every little thing to the board, people tell you something you run off and do it, then some one else says something and off you go in another direction. From what I have seen and heard your trainer appears to be showing you the right stuff, and she was for sure correct about the stirrups, even though you disagree with her.

Thing is you have ZERO idea of the background of people advising you, of their experience, their ability, but you are so influenced by people it is scary. Really it would be better to listen to your trainer for now, and I mean really listen, and learn to ride properly.

Little story for you, you keep talking about leaning back, well my trainer had me concentrating very hard on how I was sitting the other day, and being aware of where my legs were. It was scary in a way how much I felt my leg position change as I moved from sitting with my weight on the front of me, to just rolling my butt back in the saddle. A small difference in the way you sit, makes a HUGE difference in your leg position, and that makes a difference how you keep your weight in your stirrups. More importantly was how Fergie changed as I changed position, for Fly's sake, listen to your trainer, and do your best to be the rider Fly deserves


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## bsms

Dehda01 said:


> Riding with your foot home makes it so that you can't use your ankle and knee as a shock absorber. It makes you ride in a more defensive position. I can see the tension through the hip, knee and ankle of all riders pictures...In heavy duty riding, such as breaking young stock, extreme cow work, riding difficult terrain and the such it can be helpful....


The home position does NOT prevent one from using either ankle or knee as a shock absorber. It obviously has no impact on your knee, and it obviously has no impact on the ability to ride with a lowered ankle. Both Littauer and the US Cavalry TAUGHT using the ankle as a hinge and also taught the home position. Since I use it all the time, I speak from experience - as well as citing genuine authorities with far more credentials than anyone posting on HF!

Good job seeing tension, because I was in two of the pictures. Tense with Trooper because he & I don't get along and we were not having fun. Not so much with Mia, although she was tense because it was her first day in a new saddle. She relaxed by the next ride, although Mia rarely relaxed fully. And I seriously doubt the cowboy was very tense.

Outside the show ring, there is nothing wrong with a defensive position. Too many people fall off because they assume a compliant horse and are not prepared when a horse spooks. Using a position that gives one options and helps to stay on in a spook is probably good riding outside of the arena or outside of horse sports, where people accept risk in exchange for getting max performance from a horse.

BTW - look at how reiners used to be hauled up? Like this?










I'd love to know if the modern position helps or hurts the horse. However, reiners like Shawn Flarida and trainers like Larry Trocha both use the home position, and so do most cutters - which would be odd, if that increased the risk of their being killed.

The rules of dressage don't always apply to western riding, and the rules of WP have little to do with riding on a trail. Different goals. Unfortunately, too many new riders are taught how to ride a lesson horse in an arena and then are not well prepared for riding outside the arena.

Shawn Flarida:










Larry Trocha:










Me, not tense here:










Home or ball of foot has no impact on degree of tension or the ability to use the knee or ankle as a hinge to absorb motion. The home position does make it easier to keep the stirrup on with a long leg.

Hoofpic is welcome to use the ball of his foot if he prefers. Everyone who wants to can. But there is nothing wrong with making an informed choice - and a choice IS possible. I can find no evidence that the home position is dangerous or restricts the ability to keep the heel down. And it is very common in western riding.


----------



## Dehda01

As a beginner rider with a trainer... He should be taught the proper way to ride from the beginning. Riding in the home position as a beginner is DANGEROUS and a bad habit. What people do once they have skills and control over their leg is VERY DIFFERENT. 

I know you don't feel you need lessons and don't want them. But they can be wonderfully helpful. 

Yes, you have tension in your seat and down your leg. Particularly your hips/knee. May be the seat of your saddle and how the stirrups are set up. You don't want to hear it. So I won't go into it.


----------



## bsms

Dehda01 said:


> ... He should be taught the proper way to ride from the beginning...


And you get to define proper? But Olympic champions or the Cavalry or top reiners or cutters are wrong? What makes you "proper" and Larry Trocha "wrong"?



Dehda01 said:


> ...Riding in the home position as a beginner is DANGEROUS and a bad habit...


Horse pucky! It is not, in any way, dangerous. Beginner or old hand doesn't matter. It just is not dangerous. Unless, of course, you can offer some evidence and not just opinion.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> It would be helpful to Hoofpic if people let him learn how to ride PROPERLY, as his trainer appears to be teaching him, and adopt proper foot position, proper stirrup placement and all that good stuff that beginners really should get solid on, before making up their own style, or adapting 'proper equitation' to what ever suits them.
> 
> Thing is Hoofpic, this is why I have always been worried about you bringing every little thing to the board, people tell you something you run off and do it, then some one else says something and off you go in another direction. From what I have seen and heard your trainer appears to be showing you the right stuff, and she was for sure correct about the stirrups, even though you disagree with her.


I trust my trainer, she was right, I don't need smaller stirrups. I didn't tell her yet that I decided to go back to my bigger stirrups.
I think I need to give my bigger stirrups another try and focus on keeping my weight in my heels (as much as I can) and see if I notice any improvement.



> Thing is you have ZERO idea of the background of people advising you, of their experience, their ability, but you are so influenced by people it is scary. Really it would be better to listen to your trainer for now, and I mean really listen, and learn to ride properly.


Well I trusted the owner at the tack shop that she would give me correct guidance. But she didn't and just wanted my money to buy her boots. That is why I won't be going back to her anymore, for anything, ever. I bet you that she is one in a hundred that will say that laced boots are a huge safety risk and that Ariat's aren't a proper boot for riding.



> Little story for you, you keep talking about leaning back, well my trainer had me concentrating very hard on how I was sitting the other day, and being aware of where my legs were. It was scary in a way how much I felt my leg position change as I moved from sitting with my weight on the front of me, to just rolling my butt back in the saddle. A small difference in the way you sit, makes a HUGE difference in your leg position, and that makes a difference how you keep your weight in your stirrups. More importantly was how Fergie changed as I changed position, for Fly's sake, listen to your trainer, and do your best to be the rider Fly deserves


I know what you mean, I've experienced and felt this before as well. It does indeed make a huge difference. This is why my trainer keeps telling me to lean back.


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## Dehda01

Larry Trocha is a professional and has control over his leg. A beginner does not. Until a beginner has basic body control, they must use basic safety protocol. I.E. Stirrup balance on ball of foot. They also shouldn't have a horrible long fender length at this point because their body is not ready for it. Nor are they ready for that kind of riding he is doing. 

With the short fender, and being taught heels down... When the foot is balanced that way should the rider become unbalanced AND BE UNSEATED... the foot will slide BACK. Thus making the chances of being dragged much less. 

Comparing a PROFESSIONAL riding at those levels to a beginning amateur is foolish.


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## Golden Horse

Dehda01 said:


> Larry Trocha is a professional and has control over his leg. A beginner does not. Until a beginner has basic body control, they must use basic safety protocol. I.E. Stirrup balance on ball of foot. They also shouldn't have a horrible long fender length at this point because their body is not ready for it. Nor are they ready for that kind of riding he is doing.
> 
> With the short fender, and being taught heels down... When the foot is balanced that way should the rider become unbalanced AND BE UNSEATED... the foot will slide BACK. Thus making the chances of being dragged much less.
> 
> *Comparing a PROFESSIONAL riding at those levels to a beginning amateur is foolish*.


I wish I could do more than like this, especially the bolded, you have to learn to do it right first


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## Dehda01

bsms said:


> Horse pucky! It is not, in any way, dangerous. Beginner or old hand doesn't matter. It just is not dangerous. Unless, of course, you can offer some evidence and not just opinion.


 College with masters on training. Internships training. Reading libraries of books? Years of training beginners. And seeing accidents from trainers who allow bad habits and bad equitation. Adult intermediate plus riders are very different than beginners. It is foolish to think otherwise see the reason equitation it taught the way it is. Safety!!!


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## Golden Horse

Again it is horribly unfair to be confusing Hoofpic with contradictory advice, he NEEDS to learn properly, the way PROPER riding has been taught for many years, he needs a good solid foundation in equitation, and his trainer appears to be giving him that. It is totally rude and selfish, and maybe even dangerous to be giving any other advice here.

Once he has those foundations in place then he can adapt to suit himself, but given this particular poster it is simply not helpful to be giving him bad examples to copy or admire.


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## EliRose

Those people have PROPER body control, Hoofpic is all but a dead beginner and does not - although his position is not bad. Body control and feel are things that Shawn Flarida, Larry Trocha have. I would be utterly shocked to hear either of them teaching beginners as such. They have to *build muscle* first.

And you'll find many, many photos of Flarida riding with the stirrup on the ball of his foot.

We know a hell of a lot more about biomechanics today than fifty years ago. And good try with that "old" reining photo, it is from 1987.


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## bsms

Dehda01 said:


> College with masters on training. Internships training. Reading libraries of books? Years of training beginners. And seeing accidents from trainers who allow bad habits and bad equitation. Adult intermediate plus riders are very different than beginners. It is foolish to think otherwise see the reason equitation it taught the way it is. Safety!!!


Harry Chamberlin. Spent a year at Samur. Spent a year studying with the Italians. Rode in the Olympics 4 times, IIRC, and twice as team captain. Called by Jim Wofford America's greatest equitation theorist. Taught both at Ft Riley and his own troopers. Had 500 riders and horses under him with full responsibility for their training and care - at once.

Wrote his book 'Riding and Schooling Horses' for the total beginner. To make sure, he wrote the lessons out and sent them to a beginning rider, and if she had trouble, then he would rewrite his advice to her and she would try it again.

While the Cavalry had training halls, they also rode very aggressively out of doors across all terrain. Beginners were expected to get up to speed quickly. His advice, to a totally new rider:

"After the stirrup has been adjusted so that the tread strikes the ankle bone, *the foot is placed well home, so that the tread rests under the instep, and not against the ball of the foot*. The almost universal habit of putting the ball of the foot on the tread is very faulty, and should only be done in schooling of a technical order, such as high school work and early training of a colt, where light touches of the spur are frequently needed. For cross-country work, polo, jumping, and other real riding, the foot belongs well home in the stirrup where it will not jar out at the least mishap, and endanger or momentarily incapacitate the rider. Moreover, unless the foot is pushed home, it is much more difficult to keep the proper position of the heel, ankle, and leg from the knee down, which is of fundamental importance in riding correctly." - pages 22-23 emphasis his

He went on:

"After putting the feet in the stirrups, t*he ankle joint should remain relaxed, and the heels be forced down as far as possible. The importance of keeping the heels down cannot be too greatly emphasized.* It produces the strength and stability of the whole seat...." - emphasis his

The US Cavalry taught something a little different, and it is actually where I learned my approach - as a total beginner on a very spooky horse:

"Feet- Turned out so that upper, inner sides of calves rest against the horse. Toes make an angle of twenty to forty-five degrees with the longitudinal axis of the horse. Stirrups slightly in rear of the ball of the foot, permitting all weight to sink into heels. *For schooling, balls of feet may rest on stirrup treads.*" - emphasis mine

They taught new riders by the tens of thousands, and they taught all beginners this way.

Nor am I just giving what I've read, because I adopted this early on. I've used it riding English saddles, Australian and western, with a wide variety of stirrups. And I did it on a horse who frequently spooked violently, doing uncounted "OMG Crouches" from all speeds, spinning far more circles than I could count, jumping sideways, bolting forward and even racing backwards at times. And my experience, as a total newbie, mirrored what Harry Chamberlin wrote: "_...it will not jar out at the least mishap, and endanger or momentarily incapacitate the rider._" Safety!

You claim it is dangerous - yet the cavalry taught it to many thousands back before helmets were invented, for riding cross country. You claim "_Riding with your foot home makes it so that you can't use your ankle and knee as a shock absorber_." But moving the stirrup back an inch or two has no impact on the knee, and I obviously can ride with heels down in the home position. So when you claim it is dangerous...well, I strongly disagree. Based both on people with greater experience than you, and based on my own riding experience. What you say happens does not happen when I try it.

I will refrain from future posts on Hoofpic's thread. But if Hoofpic wants to learn to ride, and ride well, he might give serious thought to buying Chamberlin's book, Riding and Schooling Horses. He might also try Littauer's book, Common Sense Horsemanship.

I'm just one of many anonymous Internet posters. Harry Chamberlin and VS Littauer both wrote for new riders. And while they wrote about English riding, is isn't hard to adapt what they taught to western riding - at least, about position. There wasn't much 'western' about Chamberlin's approach to using reins...



EliRose said:


> ...I would be utterly shocked to hear either of them teaching beginners as such.... And good try with that "old" reining photo, it is from 1987.


1 - I paid for Trocha's video course for beginners. I don't have to guess.

2 - The date is on the photo, but that IS the old style of sliding stop.


----------



## Greenmeadows

I agree with @Golden Horse Just trust your trainer and take her advice.


----------



## EliRose

bsms you are the absolute last person who should be berating people about their lack of experience or knowledge on this thread. SMDH.





Here's a barrel racer getting dragged. Her foot is at home.


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## EliRose

We're just going to pretend people like George Morris don't exist. Aces.


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## updownrider

Why are Olympians being discussed on this thread? None of those Olympians rode Western, the discipline that hoofpic is concentrating on. 

Hoofpic, I am sorry to see your journal hijacked and go off topic. I told you once that I thought you had a nice position. Don't change. Your trainer is doing a good job with you. 

Don't let anonymous people on the Internet that post pictures that are irrelevant to your riding confuse you.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic, for your safety please just listen to your trainer and not people on the Internet. We can give you advice and our opinion but we are there so it's probably not accurate. Do not listen to this home position stuff just listen to your trainer.


----------



## Dehda01

bsms said:


> Harry Chamberlin. Spent a year at Samur. Spent a year studying with the Italians. Rode in the Olympics 4 times, IIRC, and twice as team captain. Called by Jim Wofford America's greatest equitation theorist. Taught both at Ft Riley and his own troopers. Had 500 riders and horses under him with full responsibility for their training and care - at once.
> 
> Wrote his book 'Riding and Schooling Horses' for the total beginner. To make sure, he wrote the lessons out and sent them to a beginning rider, and if she had trouble, then he would rewrite his advice to her and she would try it again.
> 
> While the Cavalry had training halls, they also rode very aggressively out of doors across all terrain. Beginners were expected to get up to speed quickly. His advice, to a totally new rider:
> 
> "After the stirrup has been adjusted so that the tread strikes the ankle bone, *the foot is placed well home, so that the tread rests under the instep, and not against the ball of the foot*. The almost universal habit of putting the ball of the foot on the tread is very faulty, and should only be done in schooling of a technical order, such as high school work and early training of a colt, where light touches of the spur are frequently needed. For cross-country work, polo, jumping, and other real riding, the foot belongs well home in the stirrup where it will not jar out at the least mishap, and endanger or momentarily incapacitate the rider. Moreover, unless the foot is pushed home, it is much more difficult to keep the proper position of the heel, ankle, and leg from the knee down, which is of fundamental importance in riding correctly." - pages 22-23 emphasis his
> 
> He went on:
> 
> "After putting the feet in the stirrups, t*he ankle joint should remain relaxed, and the heels be forced down as far as possible. The importance of keeping the heels down cannot be too greatly emphasized.* It produces the strength and stability of the whole seat...." - emphasis his
> 
> The US Cavalry taught something a little different, and it is actually where I learned my approach - as a total beginner on a very spooky horse:
> 
> "Feet- Turned out so that upper, inner sides of calves rest against the horse. Toes make an angle of twenty to forty-five degrees with the longitudinal axis of the horse. Stirrups slightly in rear of the ball of the foot, permitting all weight to sink into heels. *For schooling, balls of feet may rest on stirrup treads.*" - emphasis mine
> 
> They taught new riders by the tens of thousands, and they taught all beginners this way.
> 
> Nor am I just giving what I've read, because I adopted this early on. I've used it riding English saddles, Australian and western, with a wide variety of stirrups. And I did it on a horse who frequently spooked violently, doing uncounted "OMG Crouches" from all speeds, spinning far more circles than I could count, jumping sideways, bolting forward and even racing backwards at times. And my experience, as a total newbie, mirrored what Harry Chamberlin wrote: "_...it will not jar out at the least mishap, and endanger or momentarily incapacitate the rider._" Safety!
> 
> You claim it is dangerous - yet the cavalry taught it to many thousands back before helmets were invented, for riding cross country. You claim "_Riding with your foot home makes it so that you can't use your ankle and knee as a shock absorber_." But moving the stirrup back an inch or two has no impact on the knee, and I obviously can ride with heels down in the home position. So when you claim it is dangerous...well, I strongly disagree. Based both on people with greater experience than you, and based on my own riding experience. What you say happens does not happen when I try it.
> 
> I will refrain from future posts on Hoofpic's thread. But if Hoofpic wants to learn to ride, and ride well, he might give serious thought to buying Chamberlin's book, Riding and Schooling Horses. He might also try Littauer's book, Common Sense Horsemanship.
> 
> I'm just one of many anonymous Internet posters. Harry Chamberlin and VS Littauer both wrote for new riders. And while they wrote about English riding, is isn't hard to adapt what they taught to western riding - at least, about position. There wasn't much 'western' about Chamberlin's approach to using reins...
> 
> 
> 
> 1 - I paid for Trocha's video course for beginners. I don't have to guess.
> 
> 2 - The date is on the photo, but that IS the old style of sliding stop.


My great-grandfather trained men to go to war. In the 1913-1940s, most men had AT LEAST rudimentary idea of riding. SIGNIFICANTLY more if they were not city boys. He needed to pretty them up, but they typically had decent horse sense, a useable seat and could be turned around to be pushed out into the world to be killed by whatever country the USA needed them to fight within 45-60 days. 

So there was a fast turn around. You don't need to get them pretty. You just get them to sit a horse decently, jump a certain sized fence and shoot a rifle and bayonet with accuracy. And with a healthy young man it didn't take long. And unfortunately, many of the men came back home in boxes not long after. 

He knew he was just creating pawns- both with the young men and the horses he was breaking. And he was incredibly sad about it until the day he died.


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## Golden Horse

updownrider said:


> Why are Olympians being discussed on this thread? None of those Olympians rode Western, the discipline that hoofpic is concentrating on.
> 
> Hoofpic, I am sorry to see your journal hijacked and go off topic. I told you once that I thought you had a nice position. Don't change. Your trainer is doing a good job with you.
> 
> Don't let anonymous people on the Internet that post pictures that are irrelevant to your riding confuse you.


Exactly, Hoofpic your trainer IS doing a good job, listen to them, keep it simple, learn to do things properly, you'll do fine.


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## jaydee

*MODERATING SUGGESTION*
The foot/stirrup position seems to be monopolizing this thread now and straying too far away from it being hoofpic's journal
If any members want to discuss the topic in depth then perhaps start a thread on the subject that would attract a wider audience and allow hoofpic to move on?


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## tinyliny

wait, Jaydee, there is something I want to add on that, here.


with regard to what is "proper" to teach a beginner, and what is more 'correct'/ the home or the ball of the foot.


As many have said, both can be right, depending on the situation. the reason why I, if I were hoofpic's teacher, would insist he start with the ball of his foot on the stirrup is that when folks are first riding, they tend to ride more by grip., they tend to try and hold ON to the horse, rather than get their weight and legs to flow AROUND the hrose. if , in a moment of fear or disbalance, a beginner has his foot 'home' in the stirrup, he is more likely to very easily point the toe down, grip up with the calves, curl around in the 'fetal' position.

learning to keep the heel well down, toes up FIRST make him learn to really 'feel' the difference in positions, so that he can feel when his heels are coming up, his toes down and him losing the long leg and reverting to 'gripping up'

once the new rider has learned some better leg control, they might find the position that works for them. but, starting them off by MAKING them stay farther out of the stirrup is a better way to build 'leg awareness' in keeping a longer leg.

do you see what I'm trying to say?


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## greentree

Yes, tinyliny, and it is that "gripping up" that must be unlearned, because THAT is what makes the stirrup\shoe without heel combo dangerous!!!


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## Allison Finch

Folks, this is a JOURNAL belonging to a member, giving his personal experiences. It is not an open discussion, as such. If you want to discuss issues you see on a journal, feel free to open a thread on a discussion based subforum.

OOOps, Jaydee, it seems I have simply repeated what you said. Hmmm....maybe it will bring the intent HOME!!


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## sarahfromsc

Dehda01 said:


> Larry Trocha is a professional and has control over his leg. A beginner does not. Until a beginner has basic body control, they must use basic safety protocol. I.E. Stirrup balance on ball of foot. They also shouldn't have a horrible long fender length at this point because their body is not ready for it. Nor are they ready for that kind of riding he is doing.
> 
> With the short fender, and being taught heels down... When the foot is balanced that way should the rider become unbalanced AND BE UNSEATED... the foot will slide BACK. Thus making the chances of being dragged much less.
> 
> Comparing a PROFESSIONAL riding at those levels to a beginning amateur is foolish.


Just wanted to like this again.


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## Hoofpic

You all know me, I am such a HUGE skeptic when it comes to singles events, especially ones that you pay for. I haven't gone to one in like 3 or 4 years and not a single one of those were worth my time, let alone me having to pay on top of it.

But boy, this one SURE IS TEMPTING! Mainly because if I was to meet someone really nice there, we already share a common interest - horses. But it almost seems too good to be true. 70% women going? 

It takes an awful lot to get me to buy into these things.

Events : Match.com


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> bsms you are the absolute last person who should be berating people about their lack of experience or knowledge on this thread. SMDH.
> 
> Woman Crushed By Horse - YouTube
> Here's a barrel racer getting dragged. Her foot is at home.


Sorry, Ive been away from the computer for most of the day, so I haven't ready the past couple pages. But wow, I can't believe that lady lived from that! Hope the horse was okay.


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## PoptartShop

Just listen to your trainer- I think she knows best!


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Just listen to your trainer- I think she knows best!


I agree. Though not for everything, but riding yes.


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## Hoofpic

I will say that I LOOOOVE the new chaps! Im forsure keeping them. I know they wont help but my feet felt better in the stirrups. It just felt like my ankles had more supportand most importantly no more rubbing or pressure on the inside ankles. Ironically, I never had an issue with my feet falling forward. 

Now I should know somewhat in what it feels like to ride with leather boots on with the extra height. I recorded my video too today. I told my trainer that I went back to my old stirrups and she said good decision.

You guys were right, stick with my old big stirrups. Better bigger than smaller. Thank you everyone.



I got a pic with the half chaps on.


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## Hoofpic




----------



## Hoofpic

On top of that, I have some bad news.

My trainer today caught me mounting Fly by just wrapping my leg over her and not putting my closest foot in the stirrup first. She said that she doesn't want to see me do that anymore, even though I told her why I did it and that is because it feels more natural for me.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> You all know me, I am such a HUGE skeptic when it comes to singles events, especially ones that you pay for. I haven't gone to one in like 3 or 4 years and not a single one of those were worth my time, let alone me having to pay on top of it.
> 
> But boy, this one SURE IS TEMPTING! Mainly because if I was to meet someone really nice there, we already share a common interest - horses. But it almost seems too good to be true. 70% women going?
> 
> It takes an awful lot to get me to buy into these things.
> 
> Events : Match.com


I can't see the details because it wants me to sign in, but if it's not too far from your area and not a huge hit to your wallet, what harm is there in going?

It seems like even if you don't find the love of your life, maybe you will find some additional friends who share an interest in horses. IMO, you can never have too many horsey friends.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> You all know me, I am such a HUGE skeptic when it comes to singles events, especially ones that you pay for. I haven't gone to one in like 3 or 4 years and not a single one of those were worth my time, let alone me having to pay on top of it.
> 
> But boy, this one SURE IS TEMPTING! Mainly because if I was to meet someone really nice there, we already share a common interest - horses. But it almost seems too good to be true. 70% women going?
> 
> It takes an awful lot to get me to buy into these things.
> 
> Events : Match.com


What the heck, why not? Sounds like fun, what little I can see around the sign in/ sign up box.


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> I can't see the details because it wants me to sign in, but if it's not too far from your area and not a huge hit to your wallet, what harm is there in going?
> 
> It seems like even if you don't find the love of your life, maybe you will find some additional friends who share an interest in horses. IMO, you can never have too many horsey friends.


I have to be in the mood for it. Over the past week, I have been doing a lot of (unintentional) thinking about my social relationships with women and I'm just so discourage and disgruntled about getting into another relationship again. Would I like to make some female friends, get to know and do stuff with? Of course. But I just can't go down this road again and go through heartbreak again. I've been through enough. Yes it can get lonely at times, but I honestly deep down believe that I'm a better person with no one in my life. 

I don't know what's wrong with me, I wish I could tell you but I just don't have any faith what so ever in that I'm appealing to women. Not a single woman out there. So why even waste my time. This is why I haven't even dated, or even talked to a single girl since May 2014, that's over 2 years (that was my ex). And even when I'm out in public, doing whatever (usually running errands or having lunch, dinner), I don't even pay attention to any women. I do everything alone, and it's just a way of life that I have gotten used to over the past 15 years. 

I don't do that to come across as rude, but just because like I said, I deep down believe that I'm not appealling to women so I don't even make any effort to communicate with them.

I'm 35, and if I go my entire life without getting married or falling in love again or having kids or a family, then that's fine with me. Like I said before, I am not living the same life today that I was 3 years ago. I don't even have the same outlook and goals in life. Meeting someone, having kids and having a family isn't even anywhere near my mind.

And I've told my parents that too. I know they want nothing more than to see me find someone. But it's on me and it's a hurdle that I can't overcome.

I go to that singles event and all these negative feelings and thoughts will just come back to me again and I will be a miserable person to be around there. I'm just not in the right frame of mind to meet anyone right now. 

Would I like to go to that event? Of course I would!


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> What the heck, why not? Sounds like fun, what little I can see around the sign in/ sign up box.


I took a screenshot of it.


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## EliRose

Okay that's super cute, but did anyone catch that it is a "19 person event"? Someones gettin' left out!


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Okay that's super cute, but did anyone catch that it is a "19 person event"? Someones gettin' left out!


Where do you see "19?" 

Well I think I'm overdue for pics of Fly and I together. This has been on my mind for awhile now where I have been wanting to add pics to my collection, but it will be with Fly and I. I am going to find a good photographer to come out to my barn and take pics of Fly and I. I want these for memories. 

I would rather not pay for a photographer and try to save money by doing it myself but this is just something that I can't do myself. It's near impossible lol.

You can get some amazing shots from horse and rider. I mean, some people at the barn take pics of them and their horse but it's just selfies and those aren't the same nor are they what I want.

I hope my BO and trainer will be okay with it. I'm hoping I could have my trainer in one of the pics (with her back turned) and the light on me during a lesson (have you seen these shots before?).


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## 6gun Kid

Okay dude, this isn't Dear Abby and I certainly ain't Ann Landers, but this the only advice I am going to give you on your personal life. My Grandma used to say "can't never could" which was her way of saying you will never know if you don't try. Don't look at it as a place to meet women and find the love of your life, or even your love of the next 5 minutes. Look at it as a way to have a good time on a horse. 
As for women I really don't what to tell you, took me 43 years to find the love of my life, but I will tell you this.... It was worth the wait.


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## phantomhorse13

6gun Kid said:


> Okay dude, this isn't Dear Abby and I certainly ain't Ann Landers, but this the only advice I am going to give you on your personal life. My Grandma used to say "can't never could" which was her way of saying you will never know if you don't try. Don't look at it as a place to meet women and find the love of your life, or even your love of the next 5 minutes. Look at it as a way to have a good time on a horse.
> As for women I really don't what to tell you, took me 43 years to find the love of my life, but I will tell you this.... It was worth the wait.


This!

Hoofpic, even within your post explaining why you won't go, you can see the internal conflict. Part of you wants to go and part is scared of being rejected. Don't go expecting to find the love of your life. Go expecting to experience a trail ride (isn't that something you really want to do?!).

You likely interact with tons of single people every day, at the grocery store, etc. But there is a world of difference between just going out and doing something and (insert dramatic music here) looking for _the one. _Don't worry about people being single or if they will find you attractive - go on the trail ride! Act like you would with your friends at the barn or like you did with the coworkers you liked. No pressure, no worrying.

Don't think about marriage or kids or even what is happening next Tuesday. And bring your phone to take pics of your trail ride to share with us.


----------



## greentree

Love happens at THE strangest times....

I met my DH signing up for a TRAILRIDE! His club was the host, so he was at the sign up table, and my club was visiting, so I was signing up....he put his name down right after mine, so thast he could get to know me!!!!

Only 36 YEARS ago!!


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I met my partner at my first job and we are still together 5 years later... Love happens when it happens


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Love happens at THE strangest times....


Yes it does.



6gun Kid said:


> Okay dude, this isn't Dear Abby and I certainly ain't Ann Landers, but this the only advice I am going to give you on your personal life. My Grandma used to say "can't never could" which was her way of saying you will never know if you don't try. Don't look at it as a place to meet women and find the love of your life, or even your love of the next 5 minutes. Look at it as a way to have a good time on a horse.
> As for women I really don't what to tell you, took me 43 years to find the love of my life, but I will tell you this.... It was worth the wait.





phantomhorse13 said:


> This!
> 
> Hoofpic, even within your post explaining why you won't go, you can see the internal conflict. Part of you wants to go and part is scared of being rejected. Don't go expecting to find the love of your life. Go expecting to experience a trail ride (isn't that something you really want to do?!).
> 
> You likely interact with tons of single people every day, at the grocery store, etc. But there is a world of difference between just going out and doing something and (insert dramatic music here) looking for _the one. _Don't worry about people being single or if they will find you attractive - go on the trail ride! Act like you would with your friends at the barn or like you did with the coworkers you liked. No pressure, no worrying.
> 
> Don't think about marriage or kids or even what is happening next Tuesday. And bring your phone to take pics of your trail ride to share with us.


I'm really considering going now. I better decide quick, the event is tomorrow. I can head over right from the barn.

You guys are right, just go with the expectation of getting to see more horses, another barn, and if I can make some friends out of it, great. Yes I want to go on a trail ride.

If this was a regular singles event, I wouldn't even be considering it. But because horses are involved, then it's another story. I will just see it as another experience with horses under my belt. 

There may even be other fellow horse owners there, who knows.


----------



## Hoofpic

From yesterday's lesson in my big old stirrups again and with my half chaps on. Some canter work as well.


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## Hoofpic

Okay I did it, I just signed up for the event tomorrow. It actually brought an instant smile to my face and now I'm so excited! Singles event or not, there was no doubt in my mind that I wanted to go.

It's sold out for ladies, but not guys. Whether the 80/20 women/men ratio is accurate, I figure I have nothing to lose. If there is going to be a lot more women there than guys, then better for me. But they could just say 80/20 women/men as a marketing ploy. 

I will go tomorrow in my barn clothes. Hoodie, riding shoes, jeans. As much as I don't like hair products, I will probably put in some wax into my hair because I know first impressions are everything.

Woohoo, we are even allowed to bring our cameras. I will forsure be doing this.


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## Rainaisabelle

Fly does not look super comfortable with the canter.. You didn't look to bad though try to think of a fifty dollar note under your butt so your butt actually stays in the saddle, unless you were doing two point and then you did great lol..

Just remember to stay relaxed canter is actually fun and easy once you get it


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

greentree said:


> Love happens at THE strangest times....
> 
> I met my DH signing up for a TRAILRIDE! His club was the host, so he was at the sign up table, and my club was visiting, so I was signing up....he put his name down right after mine, so thast he could get to know me!!!!
> 
> Only 36 YEARS ago!!


I met my husband as I was walking out of the restroom at the car dealership I worked at a few years ago. He was stocking the vending machines they had at the dealership and it was right before closing. I stopped to peruse the selection, but didn't have any money. He asked me if I wanted anything, I told him I didn't have any money, and he said "That's not what I asked. I asked if you wanted anything." We got to chatting and figured out that he went to high school with my oldest brother and sister. When he asked me for my phone number, I wasn't sure why, but I gave it to him (I had NEVER had a guy ask for my number like that). I couldn't even remember his name when I told my mom about him. A couple of weeks later, he invited me out to dinner, took me to his brother's house that he was house-sitting, and made me a really nice dinner. The rest, as they say, is history. We've been happily married for a year (it'll be a year in one month and one day) and have been together for four and a half years. Believe me when I say that I was definitely NOT looking for love when I walked out of that restroom. :lol:


----------



## Dehda01

You don't know if you don't try. I do think you you need to think positively and project a positive image into the world in order to get positive results. 

I am not sure I would go directly from the barn in barn clothes even though this is a "casual" event... It is not quite that "casual". But I dress pretty casual at the barn and get pretty dirty and can SMELL after being with my creatures at the farm.

You should shower, have fresh clothes and be able to look at a mirror before you go into this event... I don't personally like cologne on men anymore since I have become allergic to it and it gives me an asthma attack... But you need to freshen your self up and SELL YO'SELF for a first impression.


----------



## edf

> My trainer today caught me mounting Fly by just wrapping my leg over her and not putting my closest foot in the stirrup first. She said that she doesn't want to see me do that anymore, even though I told her why I did it and that is because it feels more natural for me.


Did she give you a reason why not?

I am not questioning your trainer or anything... I just get yelled at for mounting- using a mounting block- and putting my foot in the stirrup to mount instead of just wrapping my leg around.

I don't think either way is wrong. I prefer mounting Zoe with a foot in the stirrup since she may move a little. Other horses I just throw my leg around. I am just curious as to her reasoning.


As for the whole dateing thing:

Dude, you are meeting women who already have something in common- horses! But I would go to the event to have fun and mingle. Don't go with the expectations of finding someone. You got an ice breaker topic already- horses!

Maybe you'll find a friend or some one for the potential for something more- but even if you don't- the fact you went out and did it is a positive thing. It will give you experience and confidence. And horses.... you get to ride horses...LOL.

Good luck and have fun!


----------



## Dehda01

I would yell at you too, mounting like that. One of the most dangerous positions we are put in is when we are mounting the horse, because we are not settled in our weight fully. 

When you are branching from block to stirrup to saddle, you are unbalanced- no matter who you are. 

If you have a left foot in the stirrup(and hopefully a slight left bend to the neck, it at least gives you a piece of "security", so if the horse was to act up, you could bend the horse around to your body to the left and stop the accident and protect yourself. 

But instead... You have no foot in the stirrup, so you either need to balance without stirrups, which MAY BE fine for an advanced rider depending what the horse is doing, or you have to rush to try to get your stirrups with both feet with a naughty horse as they are being bad... Where if you already had a foot in.. Half the battle would have been won... And you could have been using that foot for a touch of security and only looking for one stirrup with a bucking or bolting horse. 

Because lets face it... Horses can be fresh... And they often tell you in the first few seconds you get on them. I am often folding a horse in half the second I am getting on a young horse, sometimes only half on. I try to have them prove they are safe for me to get on before I am willing to put all my weight on, but sometimes they can be tricky. Or a cat goes running by or something spooks them...


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> greentree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Love happens at THE strangest times....
> 
> I met my DH signing up for a TRAILRIDE! His club was the host, so he was at the sign up table, and my club was visiting, so I was signing up....he put his name down right after mine, so thast he could get to know me!!!!
> 
> Only 36 YEARS ago!!
> 
> 
> 
> I met my husband as I was walking out of the restroom at the car dealership I worked at a few years ago. He was stocking the vending machines they had at the dealership and it was right before closing. I stopped to peruse the selection, but didn't have any money. He asked me if I wanted anything, I told him I didn't have any money, and he said "That's not what I asked. I asked if you wanted anything." We got to chatting and figured out that he went to high school with my oldest brother and sister. When he asked me for my phone number, I wasn't sure why, but I gave it to him (I had NEVER had a guy ask for my number like that). I couldn't even remember his name when I told my mom about him. A couple of weeks later, he invited me out to dinner, took me to his brother's house that he was house-sitting, and made me a really nice dinner. The rest, as they say, is history. We've been happily married for a year (it'll be a year in one month and one day) and have been together for four and a half years. Believe me when I say that I was definitely NOT looking for love when I walked out of that restroom.
Click to expand...

Thats a lovely story. Thanks.


----------



## Golden Horse

Rainaisabelle said:


> Fly does not look super comfortable with the canter..


I have been hesitating to post this, but it is weighing on my mind.

Fly looks uncomfortable lots of times in the video, there are two issues:

One although I still think you are not too heavy for Fly, the more I see you just look so tall on her, she is compact in all directions, and you are so tall, you just look like you find it hard to find your balance. I would love to see you ride a taller broader horse, see how you do. 

Now does anyone else ride Fly? she looks confused by your (understandably) novice aids sometimes, I know I found it VERY VERY useful to watch someone else more skilled than I am ride Fergie, I got to see how she should be going, and how to ask her properly to do things. It helped her along as well.


----------



## PoptartShop

Hoofpic said:


> I have to be in the mood for it. Over the past week, I have been doing a lot of (unintentional) thinking about my social relationships with women and I'm just so discourage and disgruntled about getting into another relationship again. Would I like to make some female friends, get to know and do stuff with? Of course. But I just can't go down this road again and go through heartbreak again. I've been through enough. Yes it can get lonely at times, but I honestly deep down believe that I'm a better person with no one in my life.
> 
> I don't know what's wrong with me, I wish I could tell you but I just don't have any faith what so ever in that I'm appealing to women. Not a single woman out there. So why even waste my time. This is why I haven't even dated, or even talked to a single girl since May 2014, that's over 2 years (that was my ex). And even when I'm out in public, doing whatever (usually running errands or having lunch, dinner), I don't even pay attention to any women. I do everything alone, and it's just a way of life that I have gotten used to over the past 15 years.
> 
> I don't do that to come across as rude, but just because like I said, I deep down believe that I'm not appealling to women so I don't even make any effort to communicate with them.
> 
> I'm 35, and if I go my entire life without getting married or falling in love again or having kids or a family, then that's fine with me. Like I said before, I am not living the same life today that I was 3 years ago. I don't even have the same outlook and goals in life. Meeting someone, having kids and having a family isn't even anywhere near my mind.
> 
> And I've told my parents that too. I know they want nothing more than to see me find someone. But it's on me and it's a hurdle that I can't overcome.
> 
> I go to that singles event and all these negative feelings and thoughts will just come back to me again and I will be a miserable person to be around there. I'm just not in the right frame of mind to meet anyone right now.
> 
> Would I like to go to that event? Of course I would!


HEY NOW...I can kinda sorta relate, I've been single for 6+ years..I've dated of course since then, but things just don't workout. Guys usually end up being jerks & I just focus on me anymore. Guys are always like 'omg you're so pretty how are you single' I'm like...because guys are jerks towards me & I'm just over it. LOL.
It's good that you focus on yourself, but you have to also keep an open mind. It's never too late, you never know what can happen! Don't sell yourself short. I'm glad you're going to the event, it'll be fun, you may meet some cool people! 

Just enjoy yourself, clean up nice & have fun!!!!! No pressure!


----------



## PoptartShop

As for the canter, yes, BUTT IN THAT SADDLE!


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> You don't know if you don't try. I do think you you need to think positively and project a positive image into the world in order to get positive results.
> 
> I am not sure I would go directly from the barn in barn clothes even though this is a "casual" event... It is not quite that "casual". But I dress pretty casual at the barn and get pretty dirty and can SMELL after being with my creatures at the farm.
> 
> You should shower, have fresh clothes and be able to look at a mirror before you go into this event... I don't personally like cologne on men anymore since I have become allergic to it and it gives me an asthma attack... But you need to freshen your self up and SELL YO'SELF for a first impression.


Im not sure how to dress for it. I would just go in my barn clothes but I also don't want to look like a slob.

Ive decided that I will just go straight from the barn because its kinda on the way.

In public, Im always in hoodie, runners and jeans or shorts.

Ive been talking with the event planner (but they won't be there tomorrow as the ranch owner will be hosting it and understandably so), and the event planner said there is 5 guys going and 10 girls. Not the 80/20 or even 70/30 ratio that they false advertised for on the site. But either way, there will still be more girls than guys so Im happy.

I'm a bit nervous. I haven't been in a social situation at all this year. I hope I just have a good time. I will even chat it up with the guys.

I will bring my half chaps and helmet with me.


----------



## PoptartShop

Let us know how it goes, try not to be nervous or feel pressure. I'm sure everyone is nervous, just have fun!!


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Fly does not look super comfortable with the canter.. You didn't look to bad though try to think of a fifty dollar note under your butt so your butt actually stays in the saddle, unless you were doing two point and then you did great lol..
> 
> Just remember to stay relaxed canter is actually fun and easy once you get it


Going to her right is her good side. I know Fly is still learning the canter and my trainer wants me work with Fly on the lunge line some more. My trainer and I did this in one session, where we just had her saddled up and made sure that Fly knew the que. She is getting a lot better (believe it or not) with the canter. 

I try my best to lean back and what my trainer has got me to do is to hold my hands with the reins a bit higher when going into the corner so that it's easier for me to fall back. It helps a lot. 

Going to my left though is my bad side because I'm left handed and when I canter Fly to the left, I always lean to the left and my trainer said that I need to stop and start putting weight into my right stirrup and lean to the back right. This may be my biggest hurdle to overcome.


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> Don't think about marriage or kids or even what is happening next Tuesday. And bring your phone to take pics of your trail ride to share with us.


I would be thankful if I just made a friend. One friend. That's it. Even if it's a dude, I don't care lol.

A couple weeks ago, my two friends at the barn and two of their friends were all set to go on a trail ride up in the mountains, but a last minute storm came in the night before and it got cancelled. It would have been $50 for a 2 hour ride (well worth it IMO). I was so looking forward to this for months, only to have it cancelled the night before. Bummer. 

Now that I didn't get to experience that, I see tomorrow's as pretty much the same. I'm paying the exact same price ($50), and it's a trail ride (not sure how long, I'm guessing one hour), plus a BBQ and bonfire afterwards. The BBQ and bonfire are going to be so out of my comfort zone, because I'm not used to being in social situations at all. But I will try my best.

I'm going to go there with the mindset that it's a trail ride, not a singles event. 

I will bring my camera, my half chaps and helmet.


----------



## Hoofpic

edf said:


> Did she give you a reason why not?


Yes, she said the way I've been doing it is a safety concern. If Fly spooks or moves away, then I have nothing to save me. I will fall right to the floor. But if I have my foot inside the stirrup, then I at least have something to hold onto. She does have a point, though I do wish she would let me mount like how I've been doing.

Can I get used to her way? Yes, but it's just so much harder when doing it from the 2nd step on a 3 step mounting block. I have to reach and stretch that much farther. It just feels cumbersome and doesn't feel natural at all.

A big reason why I liked just wrapping my leg over Fly is that it puts no weight on the saddle and no weight on her until I get on. Say you mount by putting your leg in the inside stirrup before wrapping your other leg over the horse...the time that your foot will be in the inside stirrup, doesn't that still put strain on the horse's back and saddle?



> As for the whole dateing thing:
> 
> Dude, you are meeting women who already have something in common- horses! But I would go to the event to have fun and mingle. Don't go with the expectations of finding someone. You got an ice breaker topic already- horses!
> 
> Maybe you'll find a friend or some one for the potential for something more- but even if you don't- the fact you went out and did it is a positive thing. It will give you experience and confidence. And horses.... you get to ride horses...LOL.
> 
> Good luck and have fun!


Yes there is an ice breaker, horses (though there is no gaurentee that everyone there will be into horses). If it was just a regular event, I wouldn't go mainly because I'm not going to attend an event if I have no interest in what we are doing.

Like there is a "making sushi" one coming up in October. I like to eat sushi but I have no interest in how to make it. So I wouldn't go.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I have been hesitating to post this, but it is weighing on my mind.
> 
> Fly looks uncomfortable lots of times in the video, there are two issues:
> 
> One although I still think you are not too heavy for Fly, the more I see you just look so tall on her, she is compact in all directions, and you are so tall, you just look like you find it hard to find your balance. I would love to see you ride a taller broader horse, see how you do.
> 
> Now does anyone else ride Fly? she looks confused by your (understandably) novice aids sometimes, I know I found it VERY VERY useful to watch someone else more skilled than I am ride Fergie, I got to see how she should be going, and how to ask her properly to do things. It helped her along as well.


I've ridden a 15hh lesson mare before (she's the horses that I've been riding ever since arriving at this barn up until May of this year when I started riding Fly).

My balance is getting there. Believe it or not, I feel very comfortable on Fly. I get on her, and a lot of the issues that I was dealing with at the start, are either gone or a lot less of a problem.

No one else is riding Fly but yesterday I did have my trainer get on Fly for a few minutes when cantering her to her left (her bad side). I tried a good 5 or 6 times but I accidentally kept leaning to the left as I would ask Fly and obviously I couldn't get Fly to canter (though the first couple times it was really close and she did give a very good effort). So she got on her for a few minutes. It really helped watching from outside the saddle. Obviously my trainer makes it look so easy.


----------



## Whinnie

6gun Kid said:


> Okay dude, this isn't Dear Abby and I certainly ain't Ann Landers, but this the only advice I am going to give you on your personal life. My Grandma used to say "can't never could" which was her way of saying you will never know if you don't try. Don't look at it as a place to meet women and find the love of your life, or even your love of the next 5 minutes. Look at it as a way to have a good time on a horse.
> As for women I really don't what to tell you, took me 43 years to find the love of my life, but I will tell you this.... It was worth the wait.



Well said, 6Gun


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, glad you are going to attend the trail ride, but you really do need to go home, shower, and put on clean clothes----this is an opportunity to meet others who may enjoy horses so you want to make a good first impression. For a comparison, even though hubby and I have been married a long time, after we ride, we always shower and put on clean clothes even if we're going to be riding again later on with friends or go to a roping.


If you go back to the other forum, type in Try Riding this thing in the Search forum at the top of the page and set up the barrel as shown---it will dramatically improve your balance and coordination! Even though I've ridden for over 5 decades, I found those exercises very useful and beneficial. Poor Fly is becoming sour to you being off balance so you need to address this.


----------



## Dehda01

Yes, I am your age and first impressions matter- a lot!!! 

If you don't have time to ride and then go home and shower and clean up. Don't ride fly that day. Focus on getting ready for th match event. Focus on making a good impression and making some new friends. It is ok to lighten up and make new friends... And this is coming from an pretty extreme introvert!!! It was hard for me to go or of my comfort zone and meet my husband. Luckily I met him through a blind date and he loves animals and the outdoors as much as I do, but meeting new people takes a bit of polishing yourself up and cleaning a diamond up a bit. You can show your quirks off later... But in the beginning you just want people to like you and talk a bit with you. 

As an opener you tell them you have a horse... and then you ask them about themselves and ask questions... Act interested. Pretend if you have to. Look in the eyes... Not the chest. Smile. 

I would write down things I could talk about. Interesting facts I had heard... Books, movies... Sports? No politics. No animal stuff because I am an animal nerd and most people aren't so I would keep my animal freak quiet until the person was ok with me being a nerd.

Making sushi sounds like a really fun event!!! How do you know you don't like to do it if you haven't done it. You roll fish in rice and seaweed and then eat it!!! AWESOME!!!


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, glad you are going to attend the trail ride, but you really do need to go home, shower, and put on clean clothes----this is an opportunity to meet others who may enjoy horses so you want to make a good first impression.
> For a comparison, even though hubby and I have been married a long time, after we ride, we always shower and put on clean clothes even if we're going to be riding again later on with friends or go to a roping.


Okay I will shower first before going. It was sure tempting going straight there since its only 15mins from the barn and my house is 35-40mins.



> If you go back to the other forum, type in Try Riding this thing in the Search forum at the top of the page and set up the barrel as shown---it will dramatically improve your balance and coordination! Even though I've ridden for over 5 decades, I found those exercises very useful and beneficial. Poor Fly is becoming sour to you being off balance so you need to address this.


What do I type in? Sorry.

Do you think Fly has become sour with me? I asked my trainer on whether or not I was making Fly annoyed and she said no. Maybe she just said that to make me feel better?


----------



## Golden Horse

Here's the link to the exercises HGS Position Videos by Erica A | Photobucket hope that works.

Again trust your trainer for now, she is the one who actually sees you ride..


----------



## Hoofpic

I forgot to mention, Fly has lost a bit of weight. Lately Ive noticed it a bit harder to get that cinch tight and I first thought, "oh no, this girl is gaining more weight!!!" but my trainer said that if it takes more effort to get that cinch tight, then she has lost weight. 

So I need to poke another hole in the strap that goes from the cinch to the fender (sorry I dont remember what its called, you guys are going to kill me).

Im very pleased with her losing some weight, she was a chunky monkey (she still is, but going into the winter, its not going to hurt).


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Here's the link to the exercises HGS Position Videos by Erica A | Photobucket hope that works.
> 
> Again trust your trainer for now, she is the one who actually sees you ride..


Thanks


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> So I need to poke another hole in the strap that goes from the cinch to the fender (sorry I dont remember what its called, you guys are going to kill me).QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Nobody is going to kill you, but if you are truly serious and passionate about horses you need to make the effort to learn the terminology so you can converse with other horse people intelligently. The strap you can't remember what it's called is the off billet, however often I'll punch a hole in the cinch instead. It's also possible that Fly hasn't lost weight, but the off billet has stretched from use.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Yes, I am your age and first impressions matter- a lot!!!


I agree and after some thinking, I am going to go in a hoodie, jeans and my riding shoes and chaps, just like at the barn. But it will be clean clothes.

I might put some put gel in my hair but I figured why bother since I will be wearing my helmet anyways. It will just make my scalp and helmet all icky. And I will have helmet head after lol. Thats always the best and most attractive thing, helmet head lol.

Whether I have gel in my hair or a dress shirt on shouldnt be an issue anyways. We are riding horses, not having a dinner out.



> If you don't have time to ride and then go home and shower and clean up. Don't ride fly that day. Focus on getting ready for th match event. Focus on making a good impression and making some new friends. It is ok to lighten up and make new friends... And this is coming from an pretty extreme introvert!!! It was hard for me to go or of my comfort zone and meet my husband. Luckily I met him through a blind date and he loves animals and the outdoors as much as I do, but meeting new people takes a bit of polishing yourself up and cleaning a diamond up a bit. You can show your quirks off later... But in the beginning you just want people to like you and talk a bit with you.


I will still ride Fly but earlier. I hate to admit but this is going to feel wierd at first because Im so not used to being around people.



> As an opener you tell them you have a horse... and then you ask them about themselves and ask questions... Act interested. Pretend if you have to. Look in the eyes... Not the chest. Smile.


You bet I will be doing this but Im sure some will ask when I show up with riding boots, half chaps and a helmet. Now here's a question would it be okay if I showed up with my half chaps already on? Or would I look like a tool?



> I would write down things I could talk about. Interesting facts I had heard... Books, movies... Sports? No politics. No animal stuff because I am an animal nerd and most people aren't so I would keep my animal freak quiet until the person was ok with me being a nerd.


I find that I dont need to write down stuff. I can be quite social if I have a connection with someone. With the right people, I'm pretty good creating something out of nothing. But that's with certain people, not everyone.



> Making sushi sounds like a really fun event!!! How do you know you don't like to do it if you haven't done it. You roll fish in rice and seaweed and then eat it!!! AWESOME!!!


It actually does. The event person said I'm more than welcome to attend for free at the sushi event if I like.


----------



## Dehda01

Don't wear the half chaps 

I think a dress shirt and jeans would be a better option.


----------



## Prairie

You're going on a trail ride so nobody is going to ask about having a horse just because you show up in normal riding clothes. I can walk through our grocery store in breeches and tall boots without anybody asking if I have horses even though riding English is unusual in this area. However owning horse is not unusual.


----------



## greentree

Fly is NOT happy with you double bouncing on her back.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

greentree said:


> Fly is NOT happy with you double bouncing on her back.


This! It has nothing to do with her good or bad side, you should probably learn to canter on an experienced horse


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I need to poke another hole in the strap that goes from the cinch to the fender (sorry I dont remember what its called, you guys are going to kill me).QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Nobody is going to kill you, but if you are truly serious and passionate about horses you need to make the effort to learn the terminology so you can converse with other horse people intelligently. The strap you can't remember what it's called is the off billet, however often I'll punch a hole in the cinch instead. It's also possible that Fly hasn't lost weight, but the off billet has stretched from use.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, never thought of that. Maybe Fly didn't lose weight afterall. I will still poke a hole in the off billet, easier than in the cinch because I have a Classic Equine mohair cinch.
> 
> My trainer is like "you can also just get a new cinch". Uhhh NO, this cinch costed me almost $200! lol
Click to expand...


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Don't wear the half chaps
> 
> I think a dress shirt and jeans would be a better option.


I will see. I hate business office attire though. Yuck.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Fly is NOT happy with you double bouncing on her back.


What do you mean? There are times during the lesson where my trainer asked me to change diagonals, perhaps that's what it was?


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> This! It has nothing to do with her good or bad side, you should probably learn to canter on an experienced horse


I have on the lesson mare. It's on me, I need to lean back and look far far FAR ahead. My trainer said when I do this, I'm a different rider.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

How far back? Because realistically you shouldn't lean to far back when cantering, when you first start to learn you will but as you keep going you should begin to sit up


----------



## Hoofpic

Hoofpic said:


> I have on the lesson mare. It's on me, I need to lean back and look far far FAR ahead. My trainer said when I do this, I'm a different rider.





Rainaisabelle said:


> How far back? Because realistically you shouldn't lean to far back when cantering, when you first start to learn you will but as you keep going you should begin to sit up


Well realistically my trainer wants me upright but she says lean back, far back etc because she is exaggerating her que to me so it sinks in quicker.


----------



## Dehda01

Hoofpic said:


> I will see. I hate business office attire though. Yuck.


A hoodie is super casual though. That would be a turn of for me saying a guy wasn't trying... At all. I understand men don't have as rigorous routine for various social/economic reasons I won't go into now...

As a woman, I have to put makeup on and my casual clothes STILL have to be nice. Energy and effort must be put in. 

A nice plaid dress shirt, or flannel shirt seems appropriate. Touch of cologne always gave me a good excuse to lean in and flirt... Just saying....


----------



## edf

> .the time that your foot will be in the inside stirrup, doesn't that still put strain on the horse's back and saddle?


While it does have the potential- what I do when I mount- one hand is holding the reigns, the other is holding on the saddle a little bit on the other side- taking some weight of me stepping in. So the weight is in one stirrup and some on the other side of the saddle to balance it out some. My horse can be a little jerky to move when I mount, what your trainer says could happen with me and Zoe. She doesn't go to walk off- she has more of a tendency to move sideways. She has to be worked on with that some.

If something is going to happen in that split second of mounting- be it swinging a leg over or stepping in a stirrup, its gonna suck regardless of how you mount.

But thanks for telling me her reasoning. Its kinda funny how our trainers prefer us different ways


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> A hoodie is super casual though. That would be a turn of for me saying a guy wasn't trying... At all. I understand men don't have as rigorous routine for various social/economic reasons I won't go into now...
> 
> As a woman, I have to put makeup on and my casual clothes STILL have to be nice. Energy and effort must be put in.
> 
> A nice plaid dress shirt, or flannel shirt seems appropriate. Touch of cologne always gave me a good excuse to lean in and flirt... Just saying....


Okay I see.

You see, the most ironic thing about this all is that many years ago I used to be a prep, always overdressed everywhere I went. I used to wear ties to college lol. At this time, I never even owned a single pair of jeans or a hoodie of sweater. All my clothing was button up shirts and dress pants.

Well over the past 10 years that has slowly changed and I'm just not the same person. Not saying it's a bad thing, but I've just matured and grown up and realized that as I got older, that there are far more important things than being overdressed all the time and you need to be comfortable in what you're in. I know that doesn't really relate to this sorry, but just thought I'd mention it how I'm such a polar opposite from years ago in terms of style and wardrobe.

But you are right. There will be other guys there and I want to make a better first impression than each and every one of them.

Even though I've been to these singles events before, (and I dressed to impress), I just haven't been to one involving horses haha.

I don't have a plaid button up (plaid isn't my thing and I know that's a shocker seeing how I ride Western lol), so I will just wear a button up shirt. Too bad I didn't have a button up vest, I could wear it on top. I will also wear a nice pair of jeans (not my barn jeans) and my riding boots and half chaps.


----------



## updownrider

Don't _wear_ the half chaps_ to_ the party. Leave them in your car in case you ride. Your half chaps are not a fashion item. If I saw someone wearing half chaps to a party, even if it is a barn party, I would think they do not know the purpose of half chaps.


----------



## Hoofpic

updownrider said:


> Don't _wear_ the half chaps_ to_ the party. Leave them in your car in case you ride. Your half chaps are not a fashion item. If I saw someone wearing half chaps to a party, even if it is a barn party, I would think they do not know the purpose of half chaps.


Okay. But we are trail riding. I wouldn't say it's a party, just a BBQ and bonfire after. I was going to put the half chaps on for the trail ride then take them off after.


----------



## Dehda01

Leave the half chaps off. They look dorky to the non-riders. I like mine and they have a purpose when I am not wearing my tall boots, but they are not fashion forward.


----------



## Dehda01

Learn how to canter on a well broke horse. Fly needs to learn how to canter under an experienced rider...

The thing with smaller horses and taller/ bigger riders is that you can shift their center of gravity very easily. I am a tall rider and ride Arabians, so I have to be very careful not to throw them off balance PARTICULARLY when teaching them to canter. The larger the horse, the less easily you can manipulate their weight with your own.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Leave the half chaps off. They look dorky to the non-riders. I like mine and they have a purpose when I am not wearing my tall boots, but they are not fashion forward.


You are going to hate me and I am apologizing in advance.

I just tried on what I was going to wear (button up dress shirt with my nicest pair of jeans) and I had to immediately take it off. Barf. So not my style anymore. I couldn't imagine trail riding in this. I felt like I was working in the corporate world again and felt like a prep again. I could dress like this if I was doing something else where I won't be getting dirty, but I wouldn't feel like myself riding a horse. 

Im, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. So I will be wearing one of my nicest hoodies but with my nicest pair of jeans. I have some really nice hoodies. 

I will also do up my hair and put some cologne on. Geez, talk about going into the past lol. I used to always have hair wax in my hair all the time and used to be a huge fan of cologne. I went from buying 6-10 bottles a year and having over 20 in my collection, to not having worn cologne once over the past 2 years and I have 2 bottles in my collection (that I haven't touched in ages). 

I used to be so into cologne that I would carry a small bottle with me everywhere (this was back in the day when I was working corporate downtown and would bus it). BARF to that lifestyle, I could never go back (but that's another story for another day). :smile:

I'm wearing jeans and a hoodie because I want the women to know that this, the barn and horses is my lifestyle. It's who I am. I felt if I was to go there with a nice dress shirt on and jeans, it would be misleading as to who I really am.

I hope you guys understand


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I will see. I hate business office attire though. Yuck.



A dress shirt and jeans are NOT business office attire! A dress shirt, often western cut, and jeans are normal attire for most cowboys doing a days work. Business attire is a sports coat with nice slacks, dress shirt and tie or a suit! If you want to be accepted by this new group and make a good impression, dress the part!


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> A dress shirt and jeans are NOT business office attire! A dress shirt, often western cut, and jeans are normal attire for most cowboys doing a days work. Business attire is a sports coat with nice slacks, dress shirt and tie or a suit! If you want to be accepted by this new group and make a good impression, dress the part!


You are right, jeans aren't business attire but dress shirts are. 

The only thing is that my wardrobe consists of either hoodies, or button up dress shirts.


----------



## Prairie

A button up shirt would be fine. Just make sure it's clean, free of stains, and ironed.


----------



## egrogan

Prairie said:


> A dress shirt and jeans are NOT business office attire! Business attire is a sports coat with nice slacks, dress shirt and tie or a suit!


Just have to comment that this really isn't true anymore if you work in tech, consulting, higher Ed, etc. I don't know what industry hoofpic is in, but I think he's near Calgary? Anywhere you find hipster professionals I would expect people to be leaving suits or (gasp!) slacks behind. This is really neither here nor there, but if I were at a singles thing and someone showed up in something overly formal, I would feel embarrassed for them. Though there's probably a happy medium between a suit and a sweatshirt for this event  I agree, find a nice button up shirt and leave the half chaps home.


----------



## Dehda01

Hoofpic said:


> You are going to hate me and I am apologizing in advance.
> 
> I just tried on what I was going to wear (button up dress shirt with my nicest pair of jeans) and I had to immediately take it off. Barf. So not my style anymore. I couldn't imagine trail riding in this. I felt like I was working in the corporate world again and felt like a prep again. I could dress like this if I was doing something else where I won't be getting dirty, but I wouldn't feel like myself riding a horse.
> 
> Im, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. So I will be wearing one of my nicest hoodies but with my nicest pair of jeans. I have some really nice hoodies.
> 
> I will also do up my hair and put some cologne on. Geez, talk about going into the past lol. I used to always have hair wax in my hair all the time and used to be a huge fan of cologne. I went from buying 6-10 bottles a year and having over 20 in my collection, to not having worn cologne once over the past 2 years and I have 2 bottles in my collection (that I haven't touched in ages).
> 
> I used to be so into cologne that I would carry a small bottle with me everywhere (this was back in the day when I was working corporate downtown and would bus it). BARF to that lifestyle, I could never go back (but that's another story for another day). :smile:
> 
> I'm wearing jeans and a hoodie because I want the women to know that this, the barn and horses is my lifestyle. It's who I am. I felt if I was to go there with a nice dress shirt on and jeans, it would be misleading as to who I really am.
> 
> I hope you guys understand


Not going to hate you. Just telling you what makes me walk past. The dating game is a game of fast first impressions to decide if you are willing to waste or spend time talking and go from there. 

I dont want the charming man( I find them creepy), or the obnoxious guy who bullied or tried to control a conversation at the bar. But a bar scene was never my place. ButI am not a girly girl, and probably not a typical woman- as my husband likes to remind me


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Not going to hate you. Just telling you what makes me walk past. The dating game is a game of fast first impressions to decide if you are willing to waste or spend time talking and go from there.
> 
> I dont want the charming man( I find them creepy), or the obnoxious guy who bullied or tried to control a conversation at the bar. But a bar scene was never my place. ButI am not a girly girl, and probably not a typical woman- as my husband likes to remind me


I'm glad to hear that you don't hate me for my decision. And I agree with you on first impressions, but also you have to remember how I feel about judging people by how they look. 

I will give an example. Say there is a girl going who has the same lifestyle as me. I would rather have her go in what she's most comfortable in and just be herself, than wear something that is unlike her and she's not comfortable in just for the sake in trying to impress the guys. 

For one, I would actually find it quite attractive seeing her go in what she's most comfortable in (and if that means no makeup either than that's even better!) and not trying too hard to impress others (I'm not saying wearing a button up shirt is the case btw). That tells me that she is confident in just being herself and doesn't care what others think of her when they see her in a hoodie. I forsure wouldn't judge anyone by how they are dressed. I would be more attracted to her, than someone who say is trying way too hard to impress others, way over dressed, too much makeup, even if means they won't be comfortable in it.

You see if I was having this conversation with you 10 years (or even 6 years) ago, I would be dressing to the 9's and worrying so much about what others will think of me, me needing to impress them whether I step outside of my comfort zone. But now at 35, I don't have that same mentality anymore. I used to constantly worry about what others thought of me and how I look in public etc. 

I'm not saying that I don't care anymore, but right now I just want to be accepted for being myself. I'm not going to pretend to be someone that I'm not and I think that's the most important thing because I find too many people these days worry so much about changing this or that within their personality so that their SO (or friends) accept them. That to me is wrong. I'm getting a bit off topic here and I'm not saying this specifically relates to today's situation, but just saying.

And don't get me started on how judgmental and materialistic society (at least in my city, it's beyond terrible) has become over the past 5 years. People are judged and evaluated by the car that they drive. How pathetic is that. Yes, this happens all the time here. This is why personal debt in my province is the highest in all of Canada because people are buying new cars (that they can't afford), just to impress others and it's all about the status symbol.


----------



## Dehda01

I don't mind a person being comfortable, but they also shouldn't look like they just rolled out of bed. I figured a first "date" is probably close to the best you might see a person ever... The best hair, cleanest nails.... Yadda yadda because you need a good first impression. You don't know anything on personality to fall back on. You don't know that you like the person or that they like you so first impression and looks are ALL you are going on. 

I don't need you to be materialistic... But look like you CARE. When I hear hoody... It is my comfy slumpy wear. My husband wouldn't go out to a decent restaurant in his cabellas hoodie or sweatshirt. He is a casual man. He is a dairy farmer, we aren't city folk by any means, but we still will clean up when we go i to the "town"

It is kinda like a horse show. You need to be a spiffed up as possible. It is the ONLY time I would ask a second opinion on how I would look.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

A clean pair of jeans/ boots and a nice button up shirt doesn't have to be fancy but something clean and nice.. Don't wear white... And some boots and you'll look fine. 

Make an effort you may not find the love of your life at this event but you might make some friends


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> I don't mind a person being comfortable, but they also shouldn't look like they just rolled out of bed. I figured a first "date" is probably close to the best you might see a person ever... The best hair, cleanest nails.... Yadda yadda because you need a good first impression. You don't know anything on personality to fall back on. You don't know that you like the person or that they like you so first impression and looks are ALL you are going on.
> 
> I don't need you to be materialistic... But look like you CARE. When I hear hoody... It is my comfy slumpy wear. My husband wouldn't go out to a decent restaurant in his cabellas hoodie or sweatshirt. He is a casual man. He is a dairy farmer, we aren't city folk by any means, but we still will clean up when we go i to the "town"
> 
> It is kinda like a horse show. You need to be a spiffed up as possible. It is the ONLY time I would ask a second opinion on how I would look.


Okay thanks. It might be a bit chilli for just a button up, how about a hoodie on top of it? I might need a coat.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoodies are banned.. No hoodies


----------



## Prairie

egrogan said:


> Just have to comment that this really isn't true anymore if you work in tech, consulting, higher Ed, etc. I don't know what industry hoofpic is in, but I think he's near Calgary? Anywhere you find hipster professionals I would expect people to be leaving suits or (gasp!) slacks behind. This is really neither here nor there, but if I were at a singles thing and someone showed up in something overly formal, I would feel embarrassed for them. Though there's probably a happy medium between a suit and a sweatshirt for this event  I agree, find a nice button up shirt and leave the half chaps home.



What you are describing is "casual" business attire, totally another ball game from typical business attire seen in many professions. 


Hoofpic, we really don't care what you wear. All we were doing is suggesting what to expect other men to wear for a trail ride in a singles situation. From the women's POV, most of us will pick the neatly dressed man wearing clean, neat dress shirt, jeans, and polished boots over one in a sloppy sweatshirt, jeans, and half chap which aren't western at all. 


While hubby and I wear t-shirts around our barn, arena, and yard, if we're meeting friends to ride with or riding with our trail club, we make the effort to show up clean and wearing buttoned up shirts, clean jeans, and polished boots---we're not trying to impress anybody, but this is the normal clothing worn for riding. It's no different than giving your horse a good grooming, cleaning your tack, and making sure she looks her best! First impressions count and you never get a second chance to redo that!


----------



## Dehda01

So you wear a coat... Sweatshirt material is a no go.


----------



## Dehda01

Prairie said:


> What you are describing is "casual" business attire, totally another ball game from typical business attire seen in many professions.
> 
> 
> Hoofpic, we really don't care what you wear. All we were doing is suggesting what to expect other men to wear for a trail ride in a singles situation. From the women's POV, most of us will pick the neatly dressed man wearing clean, neat dress shirt, jeans, and polished boots over one in a sloppy sweatshirt, jeans, and half chap which aren't western at all.
> 
> 
> While hubby and I wear t-shirts around our barn, arena, and yard, if we're meeting friends to ride with or riding with our trail club, we make the effort to show up clean and wearing buttoned up shirts, clean jeans, and polished boots---we're not trying to impress anybody, but this is the normal clothing worn for riding. It's no different than giving your horse a good grooming, cleaning your tack, and making sure she looks her best! First impressions count and you never get a second chance to redo that!


EXACTLY!!! I am looking at what the event is... Casual Bbq/trail ride and trying to dress him appropriately for it with what age appropriate women will be looking for. CLEAN jeans (not from the barn), boots... And a nice button down shirt or maybe a polo? Decent high casual. 

Nice jacket to stay warm based on weather.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Hoodies are banned.. No hoodies


Noooo lol


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Prairie said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you are describing is "casual" business attire, totally another ball game from typical business attire seen in many professions.
> 
> 
> Hoofpic, we really don't care what you wear. All we were doing is suggesting what to expect other men to wear for a trail ride in a singles situation. From the women's POV, most of us will pick the neatly dressed man wearing clean, neat dress shirt, jeans, and polished boots over one in a sloppy sweatshirt, jeans, and half chap which aren't western at all.
> 
> 
> While hubby and I wear t-shirts around our barn, arena, and yard, if we're meeting friends to ride with or riding with our trail club, we make the effort to show up clean and wearing buttoned up shirts, clean jeans, and polished boots---we're not trying to impress anybody, but this is the normal clothing worn for riding. It's no different than giving your horse a good grooming, cleaning your tack, and making sure she looks her best! First impressions count and you never get a second chance to redo that!
> 
> 
> 
> EXACTLY!!! I am looking at what the event is... Casual Bbq/trail ride and trying to dress him appropriately for it with what age appropriate women will be looking for. CLEAN jeans (not from the barn), boots... And a nice button down shirt or maybe a polo? Decent high casual.
> 
> Nice jacket to stay warm based on weather.
Click to expand...

Okay it will have to be my downfill vest, unfortunately I only have one and its my barn one.

My other coats are a long suit jacket coat (which I never wear cause I hate it), and a Danier leather coat.

This is where I could benefit from a nice casual coat.


----------



## Dehda01

A nice leather jacket in not a wrong answer if it is a quality cut one. Some canvas jackets can be surprisedly multipurpose.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> A nice leather jacket in not a wrong answer if it is a quality cut one. Some canvas jackets can be surprisedly multipurpose.


Riding a horse in a leather coat though? Yes mine is a good quality one, costed me $300 about 7 years ago. I only wear it now for special occasions.


----------



## Dehda01

No. Leather coat for a casual jacket. Though a quality leather jacket that you take care of COULD be fine. I have a barn coat that is leather that graduated from a casual jacket to a barn coat over the years. But they get scuffed and antiqued with use. A smooth leather jacket can be taken care of just like a quality piece of tack or boots. Mine are well loved.


----------



## Hoofpic

Im excited! At the barn right now, will see if I can take Fly for a walk. Any of you find this wierd that I like to take her for walks?


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Im excited! At the barn right now, will see if I can take Fly for a walk. Any of you find this wierd that I like to take her for walks?


Not particularly , I used to take my TB for runs with me


----------



## Prairie

Why not ride in a nice leather coat? Good grief, it's 7 years old so why not use it since it's far from new. It's also highly doubtful that you will be riding challenging trails and if you are afraid of damaging it, leave it off until the BBQ. 


As for $300, that's peanuts when you look into what some of us have to pay for show clothes, good English boots, and a helmet. My hunt coat alone cost over $500 (US, not Canadian) by the time I had it tailored so it fit properly for showing HUS and HOF. By now you should realize that horses are expensive and so is being properly dressed for riding.


----------



## Golden Horse

For all the talk of wearing this and that just remember what is REALLY important.

Be clean and fresh in your person, and your clothes clean, pressed, a little cologne is good, too much is bad.

But even more than that, the most important thing to wear is a smile, not a huge grin, but insist that your face looks friendly and like you are enjoying it.

When you talk to people make eye contact, and be a good listener, be an active listener, then ask questions about the other person...do not talk too much. Try hard NOT to make instant judgements about people, remember in this sort of setting a lot of people are ill at ease, so give people a break, they may just be shy.


----------



## anndankev

Not all leather coats are a suitable design for horseback riding.

I'd rather see a nice hoodie (maybe even a down vest over it) with jeans and boots, than see an office type oxford button down shirt with a downtown type long leather dress coat on a trail ride.


----------



## jaydee

Jeez. Stop worrying about what to wear. Be comfortable, clean, and calm down!!
The first time my DH saw me I was brushing a horse's tail, probably filthy, smelly, scruffy and hair that looked like I'd been dragged through a hedge or was still stuck to my head after taking a my helmet off earlier. Through all of that he saw someone with a passion he shared that didn't mind getting their hands dirty


----------



## jaydee

Jeez. Stop worrying about what to wear. Be comfortable, clean, and calm down!!
The first time my DH saw me I was brushing a horse's tail, probably filthy, smelly, scruffy and hair that looked like I'd been dragged through a hedge or was still stuck to my head after taking a my helmet off earlier. Through all of that he saw someone with a passion he shared that didn't mind getting their hands dirty


----------



## sarahfromsc

Let me tell you a story about wearing anything with a hood on the trail.

I was 14 and out riding when we went up an embankment. At the top of the embankment was a low limb that we had to duck under. My hood became snagged on the branch, horse kept going and I was hanging in by the reins. The horse reared up, I decided it was in my best young interest to let go of the reins. Slide off the back end of the horse, down the embankment and through the creek.

It was a might wet ride back, but I did learn never to wear a hood in a trail ride. 

Think twice about hoodies.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im excited! At the barn right now, will see if I can take Fly for a walk. Any of you find this wierd that I like to take her for walks?
> 
> 
> 
> Not particularly , I used to take my TB for runs with me
Click to expand...

Okay good, phew. Some people act like Im from Mars when I tell them that Im walking Fly.

I get a little tired of being asked, "aren't you riding today?". NEWS FLASH, Riding isn't everything to me! Unlike some horse owners, I'm into other stuff aside from just riding. Everytime, I bring Fly into the barn, I'm not going to saddle her up. I like variety. I don't want her to automatically think what we are doing each time i catch her.

Anyways, I took Fly for a walk down to the mailbox again. It was great! It's about 20mins each way. That's good exersize for the both of us.

Hangout days IMO are very important and aside from myself and a few friends, no one else here does them.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well Im off.

Good news: Im in a button up.

Bad news: im scared lol


----------



## Dehda01

Bon voyage. You are only meeting people. They don't bite hard.


----------



## Hoofpic

Im so upset right now.


----------



## natisha

Is this trail ride a bring your own horse or are they supplying horses?


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Im so upset right now.


What could happen in 45 minutes?


----------



## Hoofpic

Well I just packed everything up in the car and making the trek back home (45min drive, about 50km).

WHAT A MASSIVE WASTE OF TIME, MONEY AND GAS! Can I please have my $60 back + the gas?

First off, everything started miserable by me getting lost and Google Maps taking me to the location's OLD location. So I ended up being 20mins late, but I called to notify the BO. They said "don't worry, everyone seems to be late" as I called at 4pm and only 6 people were there. They said don't worry, we won't start without all of you.

I show up at 4:20 and there was about 15 people in the waiting area all chatting. First impressions - not my type.

I observed what everyone was wearing and honestly, in my button up and jeans, riding boots and half chaps, I felt so overdressed. I just brought my helmet, gloves and half chaps with me, I didn't have them in when walking in. All the guys were in t-shirts with logos, overalls, ripped up jeans, and the girls were in sweaters and tank tops and some were dressed fairly well.

I was almost tempted to run back to my car and switch to my hoodie but I didn't.

I filled out the liability forms and such and about 4:30 we got things started. 18 people registered but only 15 showed up. All hell broke loose when the BO said that we won't be trail riding, nor riding wagons because their trails aren't set up yet, so instead we will all be riding in the arena. Everyone flipped out and complained and gave the BO a hard time. All but 3 PLUS ME ended up walking out all upset. 

Don't blame the BO, jesus, it's Match.com's fault for false advertising their events. I felt back for the girls at the barn and the BO because it wasn't their fault. They told Match.com that their trails weren't ready yet since they just relocated at this location in July of this year.

There was one girl who I was interested in, (I sat at the same table as her and introduced myself), she was quite cute and I'd say 35-38ish, but she was there with a friend and they both ended up walking out once they found out that we would be riding in the arena. Bummer. For the 5-6 mins that we sat at the same table for, she wasn't into me anyways, I could tell. 

So the girls running the riding was the BO's daughter and her friend. I have no problems except these girls were like 15 years old. 

They asked us all on who has ridden before and I said that I have a horse and I've been riding for a year (going back to the lesson mare and previous horses) and they picked out a 10 year old QH for me named Gypsy. He was black and white and very cute. Had lots of energy, and the girls said that he is normally ridden by little kids. 

So we ended up riding in circles in the arena, around barres, basic basic stuff and did walks over poles and sitting trot over poles. It was meh because it felt like a riding lesson except I'm learning from 15 year old girls.. Stuff that I've already done before.


----------



## Hoofpic

So after we finished riding (was about an hour), the BO BBQ'ed us a burger each and we got a pop and a bag of chips. Myself and the 3 other people (2 girls and one other guy), all sat at the table outside and chatted. They were about my age and I can bet you that they all didn't know that. I don't look my age and they most likely thought I was 25 (which people always mistaken me for).

We talked about stuff and general chit chat but I already know that I wasn't interested in either girl. They just weren't my type and we weren't into each other. 

So after we walked around the barn, looked at more of the horses there (this place is over 160acres so it's MASSIVE!!!), and it was mostly just those 3 talking. I still talked to them and was friendly, but I clearly wasn't interested in any of them. 

Then as we were walking, I saw a pinto that looked just like Fly! I immediately got my camera and took pics. He is actually the BO's daughters horse. He is 5. I will upload the pics later. They said they have no issues with me sharing the pictures (FYI, I know I will be asked.

So everyone took off and I stayed behind to take pics of this boy. it looks like the other 3 hooked up and the two girls went back to that guys place (lol I nearly choked on my root beer when I heard him say "so you girls wanna come back to my place?" So cheese, typical guys...*rolls eyes*.

Overall a total waste of a Saturday night and easily $20 in gas.


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## 6gun Kid

Sorry it was such a letdown.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Sorry it was such a letdown.


It's okay, what do you expect? I was this close to calling out this lady who was giving the Bo's daughter and her friend a real hard time when she was told that there will be no trails. She was just a bully!!! She should be utterly ashamed of herself for talking to a 15 year old girl like that. It wasnt her fault that Match.com false advertised. The only reason I didnt but in was because I didnt want to create a scene.

Honestly, every single one of those people who walked out acted like LOSERS! What a bunch of poor sports. Not a single one was getting their money back and they planned their Saturday evening for this and drove all the way out there, and they're just gonna walk out? What a way to act like losers.

I'm sorry for my harsh language, but that's just how it is. So much for those people taking a negative and putting a spin on it into something positive. Was I disappointed that there would be no trails? Of course, but I didn't even consider walking out. I was just disappointed that the one girl who I was interested in walked out. She was with that bully friend.


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## Hoofpic

The entire thing was just a poorly planned (if you can even call it that), amateurish event. Two 15 year old girls running a riding lesson to 4 adults (including myself), like really? And it wasn't even fun! Yes it's always nice to ride another horse for a change and get to know their personality, form, etc. But if I wanted to ride another horse, I could do this any time at my barn! And it would be cheaper and I wouldn't have to drive 50km out there.

I think for two 15 year old girls, they did a good job. They showed the adults how to lead their horse into the arena, get on, get off, and etc. But I'm sitting there thinking, why isn't an adult running this? What the heck was the BO doing?

The wagon rides they do do, but there was none booked for tonight. The BO gave the remaining 4 of us riders a pass to go back to ride for free. They normally charge $15. But it's not worth my time. 

There also was no bon fire (this I was really looking forward to because this would have been THE time to mingle. There wasn't even a firepit there lol.

I feel like a complete moron right now for actually getting my hopes up and being optimistic that there would be some nice girls there. Once I walked in, I immediately knew that it wasn't going to be the crowd that I was hoping for. You walk in and I promise you guys that not a single one of you would know that it was a singles event. Everyone was dressed like they were at the beach or their local pub. I feel like a sucker and I've been once again taken advantage of.

Like I said, the ONLY good thing about tonight was seeing Fly's big brother lol. He was so cute!


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## anndankev

Sounds like a success to me! Out of 4 people. One guy got 2 girls. LOL

Seriously though. It was an adventure, interesting, a bit of fun, had to do with horses, and you have a couple of good stories about it.


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## Hoofpic

anndankev said:


> Sounds like a success to me! Out of 4 people. One guy got 2 girls. LOL
> 
> Seriously though. It was an adventure, interesting, a bit of fun, had to do with horses, and you have a couple of good stories about it.


You know, at first I actually thought he was a decent guy. But he's just another one of your "run of the mill" guys. I'm not like that, I have self respect for myself and others and I won't stoop that low. It has to be a quality that some women find attractive.


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## Hoofpic

I've been trying to get a shot of Fly with her head over the rail watching other horses in the arena, no luck today lol. It's pretty funny because she's so entertained! I got this today, see how nice her mane is!


















Tonight, the cutest little mini!


































More pics I took tonight. A bigger version of Fly!










The two girls who taught the riding lesson tonight.


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## Hoofpic

I love that baby Clydesdale. This was the very first time I've seen one in person, so I was very excited when I saw him.


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## Foxhunter

Great pictures!

Life is a learning curve, when things do not go as planned then you have two ways f looking at it, being annoyed/disappointed amd thinking that next time you book for something like this to call the organisers before to check all of as stated. Then to look on it as an experience, that you met new people, even if they were much older. Believe me, older people can be both interesting and entertaining!


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## Dehda01

1) You can't win if you don't try....

2) Bbq/ bonfires tend to full out a certain type of people. 

3) Always stand up against bullies if you can. it sure would have meant a lot to those girls who didn't deserve the abuse. 

4) I don't judge who goes home with who. You never know the full story, and as long as everyone is consenting adults.... There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with it. He can still be a great guy, and they can still be wonderful woman. It might not be a choice you or I would make, but we don't walk in their shoes.


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## Hoofpic

Foxhunter said:


> Great pictures!
> 
> Life is a learning curve, when things do not go as planned then you have two ways f looking at it, being annoyed/disappointed amd thinking that next time you book for something like this to call the organisers before to check all of as stated. Then to look on it as an experience, that you met new people, even if they were much older. Believe me, older people can be both interesting and entertaining!


Thanks. Well it's a valuable lesson that I learned, even though I don't think you could blame me for getting my hopes up a bit and being optimistic that there would have been some nice girls there. Even though I was late (which is never a good first impression), I was really excited to meet these people, only to get there and be completely disappointed. 

I wasn't going to let my night be ruined all just because there was no trails to ride on. Yes I was very disappointed when I heard this and immediately thought the same as everyone else, that this isn't what I paid for. But I decided to put a positive spin on the negative so that I could walk out that night with a positive. 

Though I do put some blame on the shoulders of the BO. This should have been much better planned. It seemed like a total after thought and the impression that I got from the BO, was that not even he wanted to be there. He wasn't there for the most part anyways, he just went off and did his own thing. When people were walking out, he wasn't happy and the two girls kept saying how it would still be fun in the arena and we will do fun stuff. So I stayed. 

I looked at their arena (it was nice and big) and thought, okay maybe I will do stuff that I have never done before and it will be a fun and new experience for me. I will learn new things. I flashed back to 5 months ago where I went to that clinic and walked that one mare over the bridge, mattress, inbetween logs etc (and I was able to carry it right over to Fly). But boy was I wrong! 

After going through that ride and chatting with the other 3 after, I question if it was even worth my time. That ride, no pun intended, was a complete joke. I felt it was a small advertisement to get us to do lessons with them in our own time. This was not my first time riding, so why am I starting from scratch again? And instructed by two 15 year old girls?!!!!

We went from, what was "advertised" as a trail ride and wagon ride, to a 1-1.5 hour lesson going around the arena in circles. But hey I got to experience the canter on this boy I rode lol. I didn't ask for it, but he did it a few times lol and the two girls said I had really good balance. I asked for a trot initially so I brought him back down to a trot.

If I had known, I would have skipped it, skipped the burger and chat after and just taken my camera to take pictures all night, then call it a night. Not to be a jerk, but when my gut knows and tells me that they aren't people that I will be keeping in touch with past this night, why even waste anymore time with them? Just leave and go home. I did consider this a few times throughout the night and frankly I should have done this. 

During the lesson, I just couldn't help but think a couple times, what the hell am I doing here? I felt like I went back a 18 months in my very very first ride on a horse by my very first trainer. 

Going by first impressions, I knew those other 3 people were not my type, but I didn't want to be a poor sport so I wanted to at least chat with them for a bit to get to know them a bit. It didn't take very long for me to confirm that we weren't each others types and this would explain why as the night went on, I branched off from their conversations and I ended up alone just taking pictures. 

All those people who walked out and made a big fuss acted like sore losers. Again, were they there to meet others or for just the horses? Even if you were there just for the horses, you can't be around them if you go home! There were a lot of creeps there (mostly the dudes). 

I'm still glad that I went in a button up and not a hoodie because I was by far the best dressed guy there (and that's not saying much). But I'm glad you guys talked me out of wearing a hoodie there and instead going in a button up. I at least could confidently say that I was dressed appropriately for the event.


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## Rainaisabelle

What's wrong with being instructed by 15yr olds? Some fantastic riders and instructors can be quite young..


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> 1) You can't win if you don't try....
> 
> 2) Bbq/ bonfires tend to full out a certain type of people.
> 
> 3) Always stand up against bullies if you can. it sure would have meant a lot to those girls who didn't deserve the abuse.
> 
> 4) I don't judge who goes home with who. You never know the full story, and as long as everyone is consenting adults.... There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with it. He can still be a great guy, and they can still be wonderful woman. It might not be a choice you or I would make, but we don't walk in their shoes.


Yes you can't win if you don't try. But after last night, this will just go down as yet another joke of a social event that I've attended over the past 6 or 7 years (this was when I "used to" always attend social events, before getting discouraged from all of it and stopped going 2 years ago). 

There was a reason why I completely stopped cold turkey going to these social meetups (regardless if they were labelled as "singles meets" or not). They're just a complete joke and are never organized accordingly. You don't know what you are going to get and from my experiences, they've all been a waste of time and money. And at my stage in my life, (with me knowing what my passions are, I ain't going through the exploration phase in my life, those days are long gone), I have far better and wiser things to spend my time and money on than shameful pitiful experiences like this. 

I can sum it up just like all the previous ones I attended. Even if this event was FREE, I still wouldn't have gone. The fact I left the barn early for this was a complete joke.

That upcoming sushi event in October, I'm sure I can still (as long as the event administrator keeps his word) get a complimentary pass for it. I will check. But if I go, I will think long and hard if it's going to be worth my time.

#3 - I would have stood up for the two young girls but I actually didn't find out what happened until after it happened (sorry I should have mentioned this). I was just told what happened from another person. But even once I got there and was filling out my forms, I could tell that this lady was just a mean bully, just the vibe I got from her. She should have just stayed home, we don't need people like you here, nor do the horses need to have you around either.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> What's wrong with being instructed by 15yr olds? Some fantastic riders and instructors can be quite young..


I think it's just the fact that I wasn't happy at all being completely mislead. First they said no trails, fair enough, but turned it around by saying how we will still be doing fun stuff in the arena (so I was thinking games). It wasn't fun at all. Doing stuff that I learned 18 months ago serves no benefit to me. I need to keep moving forward and only forward. But I still used the time to focus on keeping my heels down, weight in the stirrups, leaning back and getting used to my half chaps. Afterall, I was in a new saddle, new stirrups so I wanted to be able to carry over what I've been doing in my saddle to another.

If anything though, I'm very glad that I brought and wore my half chaps because if anything, I fully realized last night how much of a difference half chaps make for me. My feet and ankles just feel so much better in the stirrups and I'm able to keep my heels down that much better. I know that's not the use of half chaps, but ever since riding in them, I notice a difference in me as a rider. 

Buying the half chaps was probably the best purchase I've made in the past year. 

Last night I rode with the stirrups higher up than I usually ride in on my own saddle (might be 1 notch up) and I actually quite liked it. I noticed a difference in me very easily being able to keep the weight in the stirrups and heels down.

So what I'm going to do this morning is run over to another saddle store, buy one of those metal fold up saddle stands and use that at the barn, so that from time to time whenever I need to adjust stuff like my stirrups, I can trail and error by me just sitting on it on the stand and not on Fly. So I'm going to experiment today with my stirrups and bring them up a notch and see if I like it better.

I could be wrong, but I just have a feeling that the stirrups on my current saddle are a notch too low .


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## greentree

Oh, my goodness. 
This was the PERFECT time to turn into the "Life of the Party"!!! Everyone would have stayed if someone (you) would have taken control, and made some FUN out of it!

I would have gone around that arena describing all the beautiful views, the names of all the trees that I did not see, the endangered species that I did not spot....those people would have been laughing so hard they couldn't stay on thier horses!!


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## edf

I am sorry things didn't turn out right for you, but I am very proud of you for going and sticking through it. It shows me you follow through with your plans. Yeah, the event changing big time, but you stuck with it. You talked with some people, and while it may not have been what you wanted/expected, it gave you some experience.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Oh, my goodness.
> This was the PERFECT time to turn into the "Life of the Party"!!! Everyone would have stayed if someone (you) would have taken control, and made some FUN out of it!
> 
> I would have gone around that arena describing all the beautiful views, the names of all the trees that I did not see, the endangered species that I did not spot....those people would have been laughing so hard they couldn't stay on thier horses!!


Not with those people! Those dudes were creepy as hell! 

I could have saved the night if the one girl who I was interested in stayed, but she left with her bully friend. I was pretty disappointed because I was really attracted to her. It was all going downhill real fast lol. Just my initial vibe from her, I know she wasn't interested in me, but I at least could have had the opportunity to change that if she had stayed to ride.

I'm almost certain the BO knew what his intentions were and they were to try to get more customers on board by going there for lessons. That's why this so called "leisure trail ride" ended up being a 1-1.5 hour paid lesson. There was no leisure in that ride, it was just as if we all paid our money to ride a horse for the very first time. That's a bit sneaky and dishonest if you ask me.


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## Hoofpic

edf said:


> I am sorry things didn't turn out right for you, but I am very proud of you for going and sticking through it. It shows me you follow through with your plans. Yeah, the event changing big time, but you stuck with it. You talked with some people, and while it may not have been what you wanted/expected, it gave you some experience.


Thanks and that is because I'm not a quitter. Walking out didn't even cross my mind. I was just disappointed by how many sore losers there were. I understand why they walked out, because it was the principle of not being promised what was advertised, but again, sometimes you just have to suck it up and see things from another perspective. I don't like to dwell on the negatives and I think this is one area where Fly has taught me to improve on. If there is one thing that I have learned from being around horses, it's that things aren't always going to go as planned and you just need to accept it and move on.

As soon as that girl walked out, I immediately changed my mindset to this no longer being a singles event but a horse event. As the night went on, the other 3 riders could visibly tell that I had more interest in the horses than them lol. Not to be rude, but again I go by what my gut tells me and if I have no interest in them, I'm not going to put my time and energy into them. I should have bailed right after the ride and just go take photos but I didn't want to be a jerk so I at least stuck around to chat with them for a bit. But as we talked, I could tell that we just weren't into each other (not even as friends), and I gradually became distant from them. 

I'm glad that I didn't have to ride with 14 others, that would have been WAY too many in the arena.
It was funny because when I got there, the parking lot was full. But after the ride, there was 4 cars there lol. I laughed.

I might call Match and see if I can get part of my money back. You never know right? I will just tell them how I felt about the event and it was $70 down the drain.


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## jaydee

Forget it and move on. Don't waste time on things that you have no control over and are now in the past
Fly is beautiful, you can send her to me if you ever decide to part with her
15 year olds aren't allowed to teach or escort trail rides in the UK so I wouldn't be keen on having one in charge of anything


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## anndankev




----------



## sarahfromsc

Those fifteen year old girls may well have fourteen more years of experience than you.

Just throwing that out there for consideration.


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## updownrider

You say you look 10 years younger than you are so I'm wondering if the girls you said look 15 are actually older than you think.


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## Whinnie

You know, I get that you are very disappointed in the "event" yesterday. Several people told you not to expect too much, just go to see what it was like.
Judging a person's horse knowledge and instruction ability on perceived age is, in my opinion, very unkind. I'm sure they can ride much better than yourself. I read the flyer and it was obviously meant for people with NO horse experience, just an interest. 
A venue has to sign up with Match to host an event. BO had to have known how it was advertised, he knew the date and was accepting sign ups, wasn't he? I think both the BO and Match bear responsibility for this and I understand your frustration. I hope you learn to handle disappointment with less outrage in the future.


I think you handled the situation well while you were there. I am glad you didn't voice the stuff you posted here at the event there. You never know, you may run across that one woman you like again. You should learn some stress relief methods so you don't get so mad at relatively small things. Chill, Dude, it will be OK.


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## Foxhunter

When I was taking some higher horse exams I booked a course of private lessons with a man who had been thie UKs chief instructor though I had heard more negative than positive things about him. 

I arrived after a good hours drive for an evening lesson. I was informed that the lights in the big indoor arena had gone wrong so would I mind joining in with a class lesson. I agreed as I was there expecting the man to be instructing but it was a working pupil with another qualified instructor instructing her whilst she taught us, the class was very novice. 

Second lesson again I was informed that the instructor was ill so I could join in wth the same class -'different instructor. The horses were brought into the arena and the horse I was to ride was led in by two people. I asked why and was told he was a bit full of himself. At least he livened things up for me! 
I was toled to canter around the arena and join the back of the ride, I did this, came back to a trot and as I went to come down to a walk so the horse plunged forward and tried to mount the mare in front of me. 
I was quick enough to haul him to the insode of the arena and gave him both hard boots with my legs and a couple of hard whacks. 

I was furious that I hadn't been told he was an entire which he wasn't, he was a crypt orchid, far more dangerous than a stallion. 

That dos it for me. I demanded my money back for the full course I had paid for and after a big argument, received it. 

You should have asked for some money back.


----------



## Foxhunter

When I was taking some higher horse exams I booked a course of private lessons with a man who had been thie UKs chief instructor though I had heard more negative than positive things about him. 

I arrived after a good hours drive for an evening lesson. I was informed that the lights in the big indoor arena had gone wrong so would I mind joining in with a class lesson. I agreed as I was there expecting the man to be instructing but it was a working pupil with another qualified instructor instructing her whilst she taught us, the class was very novice. 

Second lesson again I was informed that the instructor was ill so I could join in wth the same class -'different instructor. The horses were brought into the arena and the horse I was to ride was led in by two people. I asked why and was told he was a bit full of himself. At least he livened things up for me! 
I was toled to canter around the arena and join the back of the ride, I did this, came back to a trot and as I went to come down to a walk so the horse plunged forward and tried to mount the mare in front of me. 
I was quick enough to haul him to the insode of the arena and gave him both hard boots with my legs and a couple of hard whacks. 

I was furious that I hadn't been told he was an entire which he wasn't, he was a crypt orchid, far more dangerous than a stallion. 

That dos it for me. I demanded my money back for the full course I had paid for and after a big argument, received it. 

You should have asked for some money back.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> I think it's just the fact that I wasn't happy at all being completely mislead. First they said no trails, fair enough, but turned it around by saying how we will still be doing fun stuff in the arena (so I was thinking games). It wasn't fun at all. Doing stuff that I learned 18 months ago serves no benefit to me.


Keep in mind that those people had no idea if you had actually ridden before.. and just because someone says s/he has, the reality can be very different. An ex-coworker once spent a week at a dude ranch as a teen, walking nose-to-tail once daily for 45 minutes. She offered to come ride my only-sat-on-twice 4 year old arab for me when I was sick.. and sincerely thought she was more than capable of doing so. Those 15 year olds (and the BO) had to assume you and everyone else had never been on a horse before until observing you. Could be the things you did WERE fun for the other people if they had never ridden before (or not ridden much). I don't blame you for being frustrated the event was not what was advertised (I fact, I would be on the phone with match.com asking for at least some refund), but the facility has to assume the lowest common skill level until proven otherwise. 




Hoofpic said:


> Last night I rode with the stirrups higher up than I usually ride in on my own saddle (might be 1 notch up) and I actually quite liked it. I noticed a difference in me very easily being able to keep the weight in the stirrups and heels down.


See, you _did_ get something out of riding there! Now you have something to try with your trainer. Sounds like a worthwhile experience to me.



Hoofpic said:


> I'm still glad that I went in a button up and not a hoodie because I was by far the best dressed guy there (and that's not saying much). But I'm glad you guys talked me out of wearing a hoodie there and instead going in a button up. I at least could confidently say that I was dressed appropriately for the event.


Remember this for next time. And yes, there _will_ be a next time. Hopefully one with less false advertising.


----------



## 6gun Kid

anndankev said:


> View attachment 832730


Where is this shirt? I must have it!


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> You know, I get that you are very disappointed in the "event" yesterday. Several people told you not to expect too much, just go to see what it was like.
> Judging a person's horse knowledge and instruction ability on perceived age is, in my opinion, very unkind. I'm sure they can ride much better than yourself. I read the flyer and it was obviously meant for people with NO horse experience, just an interest.
> A venue has to sign up with Match to host an event. BO had to have known how it was advertised, he knew the date and was accepting sign ups, wasn't he? I think both the BO and Match bear responsibility for this and I understand your frustration. I hope you learn to handle disappointment with less outrage in the future.
> 
> 
> I think you handled the situation well while you were there. I am glad you didn't voice the stuff you posted here at the event there. You never know, you may run across that one woman you like again. You should learn some stress relief methods so you don't get so mad at relatively small things. Chill, Dude, it will be OK.


I'm not stressed out or raging of fear at all, I was just expressing my opinion and venting a bit. I was completely calm and cool as a cucumber at the event last night. Just because I vent on here doesn't mean I am in person. I have incredibly composure in person.


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> Forget it and move on. Don't waste time on things that you have no control over and are now in the past
> Fly is beautiful, you can send her to me if you ever decide to part with her
> 15 year olds aren't allowed to teach or escort trail rides in the UK so I wouldn't be keen on having one in charge of anything


I have moved on but I will be calling Match tomorrow asking for some money back.

I have to say that I love my new saddle stand. I should have got one ages ago.


----------



## Hoofpic

You guys remember my friend who rides and takes lessons with my trainer at the barn but she doesn't board? The one who dislocated her elbow almost a month ago.

Well a week ago I reached out to her and offered to pick her up (since she doesn't live very far from me) and take her to the barn to just get out of the house and visit the horses and the BO. She doesnt drive and she doesnt work (her hubby does), so I believe her when she said that it's depressing wearing a sling and not being able to do much for the past 3 weeks.

She said that she appreciated my offer so much that she brought me some really yummy cookies today. Her hubby and her came out to visit today for the first time in a couple weeks. That was very nice of her and I'm not used to receiving gifts so it was a really nice gesture.


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> Keep in mind that those people had no idea if you had actually ridden before.. and just because someone says s/he has, the reality can be very different. An ex-coworker once spent a week at a dude ranch as a teen, walking nose-to-tail once daily for 45 minutes. She offered to come ride my only-sat-on-twice 4 year old arab for me when I was sick.. and sincerely thought she was more than capable of doing so. Those 15 year olds (and the BO) had to assume you and everyone else had never been on a horse before until observing you. Could be the things you did WERE fun for the other people if they had never ridden before (or not ridden much). I don't blame you for being frustrated the event was not what was advertised (I fact, I would be on the phone with match.com asking for at least some refund), but the facility has to assume the lowest common skill level until proven otherwise.


That's true good point, thanks. I've put last night into the past now, so no need to vent anymore about it.



> See, you _did_ get something out of riding there! Now you have something to try with your trainer. Sounds like a worthwhile experience to me.


I know one thing's forsure is that if you have the stirrups too high, you can put strain on your knees. I'm guessing it's due to the angle that your leg is bent. 

How high do you guys have your stirrups? I did move the stirrups up one hole on each side and it was pretty good but I will need to try it out some more to see which setting I prefer.

Mind you, since I started using the half chaps, it has really helped me feel better in the stirrups.



> Remember this for next time. And yes, there _will_ be a next time. Hopefully one with less false advertising.


Yes


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## Prairie

Normally, in a western saddle you adjust the stirrups so the bottom of the stirrup is even with your ankle bone. Some adjust up or down on notch from there.


Even on group trail rides, most clubs have an unspoken rule that the trail chosen will be one that the least experienced horse and/or rider can successfully complete---we experienced riders accept this easily since safety of everybody is the most important consideration. For a dude sting, the horses are taught to plod along nose to tail, so it's not very exciting. Any time you get to ride a different horse is a learning opportunity---every horse has something to teach us if we are open and willing to listen to what the horse is saying.


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## jenkat86

Prairie said:


> Any time you get to ride a different horse is a learning opportunity---every horse has something to teach us if we are open and willing to listen to what the horse is saying.


I never shy away from the opportunity to ride a different horse than my own. I feel this is one area where growth as a rider can really happen.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Normally, in a western saddle you adjust the stirrups so the bottom of the stirrup is even with your ankle bone. Some adjust up or down on notch from there.


Okay thanks. So basically the bottom of the stirrup should be level to your ankle bone (with the heels down?)



> Even on group trail rides, most clubs have an unspoken rule that the trail chosen will be one that the least experienced horse and/or rider can successfully complete---we experienced riders accept this easily since safety of everybody is the most important consideration. For a dude sting, the horses are taught to plod along nose to tail, so it's not very exciting. Any time you get to ride a different horse is a learning opportunity---every horse has something to teach us if we are open and willing to listen to what the horse is saying.


I agree and now when I think about it, I'm not bothered and if I had the choice I would rather trail ride where my two barn friends and I were going to go two weeks ago. It's too bad it got cancelled a couple weeks ago. I'm going to get in touch with that barn myself and see if I can sneak a trail ride in before Winter hits this year and I will go by myself. I don't need no friends to come along. 

It's just too much of a hassle at times when trying to schedule a time and date with others, and when they are free etc...when I would rather just go by myself. I hate relying on others to look into things and I like to take the initiative and take charge. Our planned trip from two weeks ago took like 3 months to get planned. I will pass on that, thank you.

Same goes for horse shows and clinics. I've invited my barn friends to come along but they don't get back to me, so I will just continue going to shows by myself. 

Here is pics of the place. $50 for 2 hours. About 2.5-3 hour drive from home. 

http://www.sunsetguiding.com/gallery.html


----------



## Hoofpic

This Saturday is our barn's games day, I've entered in for the following games.

Egg and spoon
Stakes
Glass of water 
and a few others (don't remember the names).

There's a couple where you have to work in pairs and one rider trots from one end of the arena to the other to get a flag, but you work on keeping the horse straight, then trots back, gives it to their partner, then the other does the same. Something along those lines. 

Should be fun. I know my trainer was really trying to get me to sign up for the dressage one but for me, it's so new to me that I would rather watch the kids do it this time around. I've never even watched dressage before, so I don't want to overwhelm myself. 

My trainer has been teaching me A LOT over the past couple months and I wouldn't say that I'm overwhelmed right now, but I forsure have my plate full as to what I need to work on with Fly, that's forsure. 

My trainer did explain dressage to me the past couple lessons and showed me her guide sheets that she created, so that has helped and I at least have some basic knowledge on what dressage is now. 

Because our games day doesn't start until the the early afternoon, I will be going to an English show not far from my barn for a few hours in the morning. I'm going to see the leading classes and the trot poles. Then after those classes is all jumping.

Should be fun! Going to be another busy Saturday next weekend and 100% guaranteed to be better than this previous Saturday.


----------



## PoptartShop

Hoofpic said:


> Well I just packed everything up in the car and making the trek back home (45min drive, about 50km).
> 
> WHAT A MASSIVE WASTE OF TIME, MONEY AND GAS! Can I please have my $60 back + the gas?
> 
> First off, everything started miserable by me getting lost and Google Maps taking me to the location's OLD location. So I ended up being 20mins late, but I called to notify the BO. They said "don't worry, everyone seems to be late" as I called at 4pm and only 6 people were there. They said don't worry, we won't start without all of you.
> 
> I show up at 4:20 and there was about 15 people in the waiting area all chatting. First impressions - not my type. Hicks, old men in their 50's and 60's, women old enough to by my mother.
> 
> I observed what everyone was wearing and honestly, in my button up and jeans, riding boots and half chaps, I felt so overdressed. I just brought my helmet, gloves and half chaps with me, I didn't have them in when walking in. All the guys were in t-shirts with logos, overalls, ripped up jeans, and the girls were in sweaters and tank tops and some were dressed fairly well.
> 
> I was almost tempted to run back to my car and switch to my hoodie but I didn't.
> 
> I filled out the liability forms and such and about 4:30 we got things started. 18 people registered but only 15 showed up. All hell broke loose when the BO said that we won't be trail riding, nor riding wagons because their trails aren't set up yet, so instead we will all be riding in the arena. Everyone flipped out and complained and gave the BO a hard time. All but 3 PLUS ME ended up walking out all upset.
> 
> Don't blame the BO, jesus, it's Match.com's fault for false advertising their events. I felt back for the girls at the barn and the BO because it wasn't their fault. They told Match.com that their trails weren't ready yet since they just relocated at this location in July of this year.
> 
> There was one girl who I was interested in, (I sat at the same table as her and introduced myself), she was quite cute and I'd say 35-38ish, but she was there with a friend and they both ended up walking out once they found out that we would be riding in the arena. Bummer. For the 5-6 mins that we sat at the same table for, she wasn't into me anyways, I could tell.
> 
> So the girls running the riding was the BO's daughter and her friend. I have no problems except these girls were like 15 years old.
> 
> They asked us all on who has ridden before and I said that I have a horse and I've been riding for a year (going back to the lesson mare and previous horses) and they picked out a 10 year old QH for me named Gypsy. He was black and white and very cute. Had lots of energy, and the girls said that he is normally ridden by little kids.
> 
> So we ended up riding in circles in the arena, around barres, basic basic stuff and did walks over poles and sitting trot over poles. It was meh because it felt like a riding lesson except I'm learning from 15 year old girls.. Stuff that I've already done before.


Even though it did not go as planned, I'm glad you still went and stuck it out. Good for you!  Now...back to your regularly scheduled program- btw, I love the pictures of Fly!!!:smile:


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic, your ankle bone stays in the same place no matter what your heel does.


----------



## anndankev

https://www.gearbubble.com/omhorsetee










https://www.gearbubble.com/owhorsetee










I cannot vouch for this site or the items. I just happened across a picture and kept clicking until I came to this.


----------



## Hoofpic

Okay I think I am confirmed for this Wednesday night to do a 2 hour trail ride at the link I posted earlier. By myself. Because it's during the work week, there are no groups scheduled to ride and it will just be me and two trail guides. What a huge and great experience this will be for me! There's no better situation for me to learn from than two guides.

I'm not going to invite my friends at the barn, do you think that is okay? I'm not going to lie but the last time we arrange for something like this, it was a total mess and took 3 months. Too much waiting around for others to get back, confirm, find out info, etc. I like to go after what I want.

I have no problem with telling them afterwards that I went on this ride alone (if they ask or we talk about it), but I won't go out of my way to mention it to them.


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## EliRose

That should be fun. Keep in mind that you will probably be just slooooooowly walking along, nose to tail. Don't get disappointed.


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## Golden Horse

There simply is not a right and wrong answer to that one.

You want to go for a ride on your own, don't tell anyone. If you would like company, tell people then if they want to come along then they can book.

If you have a great time and you think others would like it, then tell them how good it was, and maybe you can go do it all together next time.


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## PoptartShop

I second @Golden Horse's response. If you want to truly go alone, then go for it! If not, maybe invite a person or two that you're closest with. Otherwise...nothing wrong with going solo.  
That will be a fun time!


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> That should be fun. Keep in mind that you will probably be just slooooooowly walking along, nose to tail. Don't get disappointed.


I don't mind, I want to have this first experience under my belt and I might be able to soak in the experience more without my friends and their friends there.

I just hope my friends aren't going to be upset about it, I have a feeling one of them might be a bit rattled. She gets easily bothered with little things. It's not that I don't want them to come along, it's just that I want to go before Winter hits and it took me 3mins to set a time and date for me to go, not 3 months. That's the great part about doing stuff alone, you don't need to wait on others.


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## Hoofpic

When I was riding Fly yesterday, I realized one thing, I like riding with my friends too, but if I had a preference I prefer riding alone. Why? Less distractions. I generally don't care all that much to socialize when I'm on Fly's back. Each time I'm on Fly's back, she deserves 100% of my attention all the time, everytime.

I love it when I ride alone and have the arena to myself (or the barn super quiet). I can focus 100% on Fly the entire time and really key in on what I'm working on. This is for doing anything, not just riding.

Because no matter how hard you try, and how well you can multi-task, your attention will always be split when you are socializing or riding with others versus just you there. 

Like yesterday, I had my friend (who dislocated her elbow) come out and visit and we were talking when I was brushing Fly and putting her saddle on. I enjoyed her company and I was still able to go about my business well and correctly, I just was a lot slower than usual tacking Fly up because I was socializing, so it was a distraction. Not a bad thing, but just saying. 

And of course Fly stood so well and was patient. Just a few huffs and puffs lol. She always does this, my trainer thinks it's funny when she let's out big exhales lol. She is so vocal and expressive. 

Anyone else feel the same way? When you really want to work on things and focus on them with your horse, you don't care about riding with others?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I never shy away from the opportunity to ride a different horse than my own. I feel this is one area where growth as a rider can really happen.


I was talking with my BO for almost an hour yesterday and he said that the #1 thing that you should do if you want to become a great rider is to ride all kinds of horses, different breeds, sizes, ages, training levels etc. The more horses you can ride, the more versatile and adaptable of a riding you become.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I was talking with my BO for almost an hour yesterday and he said that the #1 thing that you should do if you want to become a great rider is to ride all kinds of horses, different breeds, sizes, ages, training levels etc. The more horses you can ride, the more versatile and adaptable of a riding you become.



That's what several of us told you when you first became interested in horses. 


Once you become comfortable working with horses, being aware of what the horse is doing, thinking, saying, etc become second nature so it's easy to socialize and work/ride at the same time. Have you figured out how you are going to get Fly to the trail head or are you going to ride one of their horses?


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## Golden Horse

> I just hope my friends aren't going to be upset about it


Sometimes you don't have to worry about others and this is one of those times, if you want to go do something on your own that is totally fine.



> Each time I'm on Fly's back, she deserves 100% of my attention all the time, everytime.


Well no, not really, that can be a little overwhelming for both of you, sometimes it is just nice to be with your horse but talking to others. Maybe that is when you reach the next stage, if you have to concentrate 100% shows that you are not running on automatic pilot yet. SOMETIMES she needs 100% of your attention, by certainly not all the time everytime.



> Anyone else feel the same way? When you really want to work on things and focus on them with your horse, you don't care about riding with others?


Sometimes, when we are actually working on something, but I go from chatting to concentrating to asking questions of Fergie to chatting and just letting her go on a loose rein....if someone tries to chat when I need to concentrate I tell them I am working on something. Tacking up is always chatty time though!


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> That's what several of us told you when you first became interested in horses.
> 
> Once you become comfortable working with horses, being aware of what the horse is doing, thinking, saying, etc become second nature so it's easy to socialize and work/ride at the same time. Have you figured out how you are going to get Fly to the trail head or are you going to ride one of their horses?


And I always believed it, I always knew it was true. 

Like when I rode the gelding on Saturday night, it felt so different because I haven't ridden a different horse in over 5 months and I haven't ridden a gelding since March of last year. Even just handling him and leading him, it was a nice change for me. So I guess it's safe to say that I got something positive out of that night. I even got to experience his trot and canter. 

Which trail head? The one on Wednesday? Yes I am riding one of the barns horses since the place is a 2.5 hour drive. 

I have to start with riding Fly down to the mailbox at my barn. My BO has been telling me for awhile now that he is confident I could ride Fly down on the street and down it by myself (even though I've told him that I would want my trainer to come along and have her ride on another horse). He says "just do it, what's holding you back?"

My BO knows that I walk Fly down to the mailbox every now and then and he always cracks jokes asking if I rode her there lol. 

I thought about it yesterday and in a way I am tempted but also, I want to be safe about it. I'm sure Fly would be okay with me riding her down to the mailbox, but all it takes is one of those idiots out of nowhere cruising down the street at 80km/h and I will become nervous. I haven't been in a situation like that before (on the ground yes, but not on her back). But then again, I've ridden Fly many times down the driveway and she was fine with that.

The good news is that the street in front of the barn is really quiet with very very little traffic (one of the benefits to moving to this barn compared to the previous).

I know if I'm walking Fly (walk her in the ditch because I don't walk to walk her on the gravel road) and a car is coming, I will turn her right around so she can face the incoming car and see what is going on. I make sure she is well off the road and get her to stand.

I told you guys about the lake from the barn (3km each way) that my friend really wants to ride our mares down there sometime? Even though I think 3km is a long ways especially in the ditch, since it's a gravel road. If it was a paved road I would be fine with it since you can walk faster. It would take an hour each way just to walk down there.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Even though it did not go as planned, I'm glad you still went and stuck it out. Good for you!  Now...back to your regularly scheduled program- btw, I love the pictures of Fly!!!


Thanks and like I said I didn't even consider walking out because I'm not a sore loser. One reason why I loved to play sports in high school, I was competitive and you can't have a quitting attitude. You will regret it and look back with a bunch of "what if's".


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Sometimes you don't have to worry about others and this is one of those times, if you want to go do something on your own that is totally fine.


I agree. I want to go on the ride and don't want to wait on them.



> Well no, not really, that can be a little overwhelming for both of you, sometimes it is just nice to be with your horse but talking to others. Maybe that is when you reach the next stage, if you have to concentrate 100% shows that you are not running on automatic pilot yet. SOMETIMES she needs 100% of your attention, by certainly not all the time everytime.


I see. Yes a mix is always good. I don't have the experience yet to socialize and ride at the same time without losing focus but I can tack her up and socialize no problem.



> Sometimes, when we are actually working on something, but I go from chatting to concentrating to asking questions of Fergie to chatting and just letting her go on a loose rein....if someone tries to chat when I need to concentrate I tell them I am working on something. Tacking up is always chatty time though!


Thats true. Though for me, when I tack up I still like to watch Flys communication with me and watch her ears etc. But at least its become natural for me now. Remember before how I was intimidated about tacking up and doubted myself in being able to learn it? I always thought it looked so difficult.


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## Prairie

3 km is nothing for a horse to walk, even in tall grass, and should take less than 30 minutes. Be sure to walk the ditches to make sure there is no trash that could hurt the horses like broken bottles, rusty metal, old tin cans, pop cans, etc. before taking the horse on it. 


By contrast, our trail group often covers over 50 miles (80.5 km) in 8 hours, including a 30 minute break at noon for lunch, in challenging terrain climbing buttes and blazing our own path. However our horses are conditioned for this type of riding starting in early spring and are ridden most of the winter unless it's blizzard conditions, icy, or howling bitter winds.


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## Hoofpic

I need advice. A bit OT but still horse related. Can we talk?


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## Rainaisabelle

What's going on ?


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## Hoofpic

You guys know how I mentioned just about everyone at the barn has a close relationship with the BO right? This includes my two friends who are really close to him and they treat him like he is their father. They go out of their way always offering to do chores and favours for him everyday.

And now with him not feeling well for the past couple weeks, everyone has gone the extra distance to reach out to him. I mean one of my friends has known him for over 10 years and she will even pick up groceries for him when she is at the store, even refil his gas tank on his gator at the station down the road.

My other friend has been going out every night just to help him feed. 

Now obviously I care a lot about him and I'm worried just as much as others are about his health right now. I asked him a couple weeks ago how he is feeling, but I don't ask him every time I am out there because I know he is asked this constantly everyday and Im sure he is tired of hearing it, so I just give the man his space. You know what I mean?

So my two friends have just been letting me know how he is feeling and progressing. I just don't want to harp him with questions you know? Besides, like I said I'm the newbie at the barn and I don't want to come across as being nosey.

Like on Saturday he seemed a lot better and looked a lot better. I didn't ask him how he is feeling because I go by what I observe. And today he was breathing heavy and I could tell her was in distress. I was still around him with my other friend there, but I didn't really talk to him because I knew he wasn't feeling well so I just kept my mouth shut and gave him his space. It's not that I don't care about him, it's just I don't want to cross that fine line of being nosey.

Even though, it still feels a bit awkward coming from a self care barn where I just about ran everything there. I fed all the horses every night for 4 months straight. I did all the waters, harrolded the arenas, etc.
I'm really the only person at the barn who has never asked if he needs anything. And that's not because I don't care or that I'm not willing to help, but because i know he already has the help.

I mean there has been a few times where I would be the only one there and I would see him doing something and I would offer to help and he would accept. 

But my two friends are just two of 5 people who will do barn chores just about every time they are out there. I've helped my two friends with stuff like cleaning the water trofs, cleaning the arena, putting hoof flex on all the horses (except Fly) feet when they get dry (this is another thing I want to ask). But Ive helped by asking my two friends if they need help, not the BO. Though the feeling that I got was that he didn't seem to mind.

I just want to make sure that I'm handling this rough time as well as I can be that's all. 

He know's that I'm willing to help and there have been times where I would bring out treats that he loves and I know he really appreciated it.


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## Hoofpic

Yesterday I was helping my friend put hoof flex on all the horses feet. So we walked into each herd and of course this involved asking every horse to pick up all their feet for us. Some horses had to be haltered because they wouldn't stand.

She did most of the horses but there are some horses who can be quite rude and get in your space. When we went into my other friends herd where she has her colt in there as well as one of my trainers horses, they can be quite in your face. My trainers gelding is the one that I've told you about, can be very stubborn and will constantly test everyone who handles him. My friend asked him to pick up his feet and he wouldn't. So she asked again, and he still refused. She asked again, and again and still nothing. So I offered to try. 

So she held him and I asked, he refused. So I used the end of the hoof flex handle (otherwise it would be a hoofpic handle end) and just repeatedly poking it just behind his leg making it uncomfortable. He still wouldn't pick up his feet so I went faster and harder and raised my voice a bit and he finally picked up. Then the second foot, he tried the same thing but I repeated the same procedure and he picked up. Hind legs he picked up a lot better but still tested. He was a total brat.

Would you say the 15ft rule (of no other horse in the herd getting within that distance) still applies to situation like this? I would say yes. Cause what if one lashes or kicks out at another. Then you risk getting hurt. I told my friend about it (because she was asking why I was chasing the other horses away) and I told her why but I don't think she buys into it. I know I do. It's not worth getting yourself hurt because you are crowded by horses all around you.

Anyways, this herd can be quite in your face. But this is where my friend and I have completely different views. She likes and doesn't mind horses nuzzling her and sniffing her. But me I had to chase the other two away because they had no reason to be that close to us so I did what ever it took to get them out of our space. 

Now, (am I the only one who feels this way?), I don't particularly like correcting or nipping other people's horses, but you have to do it if needed right? There were a couple of the BO's horses who tried to sniff my pockets or putting their mouth on my head when holding their foot up and I just quickly either put up elbow out or nip them in the muzzle. A couple of them were the BO's horses and I know he was watching and he didn't seem to care I did it. 

Cause how I saw it was, if I'm handline one horse, there is no reason why the mates need to be sniffing my pockets, leg, foot, even the horse. Don't you agree?


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Yesterday I was helping my friend put hoof flex on all the horses feet. So we walked into each herd and of course this involved asking every horse to pick up all their feet for us. Some horses had to be haltered because they wouldn't stand.
> 
> She did most of the horses but there are some horses who can be quite rude and get in your space. When we went into my other friends herd where she has her colt in there as well as one of my trainers horses, they can be quite in your face. My trainers gelding is the one that I've told you about, can be very stubborn and will constantly test everyone who handles him. My friend asked him to pick up his feet and he wouldn't. So she asked again, and he still refused. She asked again, and again and still nothing. So I offered to try.
> 
> So she held him and I asked, he refused. So I used the end of the hoof flex handle (otherwise it would be a hoofpic handle end) and just repeatedly poking it just behind his leg making it uncomfortable. He still wouldn't pick up his feet so I went faster and harder and raised my voice a bit and he finally picked up. Then the second foot, he tried the same thing but I repeated the same procedure and he picked up. Hind legs he picked up a lot better but still tested. He was a total brat.
> 
> Would you say the 15ft rule (of no other horse in the herd getting within that distance) still applies to situation like this? I would say yes. Cause what if one lashes or kicks out at another. Then you risk getting hurt. I told my friend about it (because she was asking why I was chasing the other horses away) and I told her why but I don't think she buys into it. I know I do. It's not worth getting yourself hurt because you are crowded by horses all around you.
> 
> Anyways, this herd can be quite in your face. But this is where my friend and I have completely different views. She likes and doesn't mind horses nuzzling her and sniffing her. But me I had to chase the other two away because they had no reason to be that close to us so I did what ever it took to get them out of our space.
> 
> Now, (am I the only one who feels this way?), I don't particularly like correcting or nipping other people's horses, but you have to do it if needed right? There were a couple of the BO's horses who tried to sniff my pockets or putting their mouth on my head when holding their foot up and I just quickly either put up elbow out or nip them in the muzzle. A couple of them were the BO's horses and I know he was watching and he didn't seem to care I did it.
> 
> Cause how I saw it was, if I'm handline one horse, there is no reason why the mates need to be sniffing my pockets, leg, foot, even the horse. Don't you agree?


I think that whole scenario did not set you up for success.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I think that whole scenario did not set you up for success.


What do you mean? Was I at fault?

I think I handled it quite well. But again, my friend and I are complete opposites on how we see things.


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## greentree

I agree with Natisha....take leadrope and step the horse out of the gate.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I agree with Natisha....take leadrope and step the horse out of the gate.


You mean halter every horse and do what we need to do outside of their field?

Well I did ask my friend how she wanted to go about it when we started. I suggested that we halter every horse and bring them in the barn or even just outside the horses field, but she said we didn't have enough time and whomever does this (usually her or one of the barn helpers), does it by them self and they never even halter the horses but they just go up to each one and does what they need to do. IMO, horses should be haltered for this because even if they know how to stand for you freely, you won't know who is having an off day, or what mares will be in heat and may not be as cooperative as you were hoping. So chances are, you will have to run back to get a halter anyways.

Well, when I heard this, I immediately thought the same, it's not the best scenario because you will have to spend so much time and energy keeping the mates off you. 

I know for me though, I walked my horses a bit away from the rest of the herd so I could have that distance from the mates. Some herds are good in minding their own business, but others tried swarming you like a bunch of bees. But my friend said that she doesn't mind it when she is crowded by horses all around her.


----------



## Tazzie

greentree said:


> I agree with Natisha....take leadrope and step the horse out of the gate.


This was my thought too. Shortcuts could get people hurt. My mare can be aloof, right up until you mess with one of her buddies. Then she's all up in your face wondering what you're giving the other horse but not her. Horse nature. It doesn't take that much energy to grab them and walk them out. Want to make it easier? Grab the lead horse, and walk them out. Bet others will follow, and be near enough you're not trekking the entire field to do it.


----------



## Hoofpic

That is why each time I take Fly out of the field or put her back in, I chase her mates back. 

I know when I put her back in the field, everytime her mates are lined up right at the gate because they get so excited. They will crowd you if you don't do anything about it. 

So I chase them back before even opening the gate because from my observing of others, I've seen many situations where the handler would open the gate, then chase the horses back and by this time there is not enough space to get them away. You are pushing the gate open with one hand, while leading your horse in the other and then you got horses crowding you at the gate. So it's much better to chase them back before opening. 

I know the two geldings in Fly's herd respond to me very well, and that's because they know who I am and we have gotten familiar with one another over the past 11 months. So when I tell them back, I don't need to put much pressure on them at all. I can usually just walk towards them with broad shoulders and they will yield to me. 

But my friends mare is another story, you need to put a ton of pressure on her to go anywhere (is this from just her personality or lack of groundwork?). And that's surprising because she is at the bottom of the pecking order.

But I noticed yesterday with the other horses (who I don't know particularly well and they don't know me). I've had to put a lot of pressure on some of the horses. I didn't have to get big BIG, but the herd with my other friends colt in it, I had to keep putting pressure on him and my trainers gelding to keep them away. They were persistent and kept trying to get close. But a swing with the lead rope and it was enough to keep them away. 

I know you guys aren't a big fan of the carrot stick and carrying it around (I've slowly stopped over the past few months and I seem to be doing pretty good), of course having a 14ft lead rope helps substitute for it, but I still find times where it's nice to have with you. 

I know you guys don't want to hear about my previous outside trainer, but she is right when she kept telling me that a carrot stick will always be 100 times more effective than any lead rope, simply because of the many ways you can use it to apply pressure and the reach.

You guys are right though. 

Do I need to carry my carrot stick with me all the time when I catch Fly? No I do not. 
Is it nice to have the carrot stick with you all the time when I catch Fly? Yes it is. 

But the reason why I stopped carrying it with me everywhere, is because it's just another piece of gear that you need to handle and at times it can get in the way and be a nousense. I mean they aren't exactly small objects.

And like I said, if I want to keep improving on using my body language, I need to stop relying on objects. I'm getting better and the sooner I ditched the carrot stick, the more I was able to improve using my body language. But I want to be like Buck or CA where they can use so little energy through body language to get horses to respond to him and I'm not there yet and perhaps it might not be for a long time.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> . But I want to be like Buck or CA where they can use so little energy through body language to get horses to respond to him and I'm not there yet and perhaps it might not be for a long time.


 Not perhaps, I guarantee you, it will be a long time coming.


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## greentree

A PRIME example of why green plus green equals black and blue. We learn to handle ALL of these different things as we go along, and they must be dealt with as they come up. They cannot be taught in 2 days, weeks, months, or even years.

We would never remember all the details if someone tried to teach them. That is why it is called EXPERIENCE, and and what makes a person EXPERIENCED.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> This was my thought too. Shortcuts could get people hurt. My mare can be aloof, right up until you mess with one of her buddies. Then she's all up in your face wondering what you're giving the other horse but not her. Horse nature. It doesn't take that much energy to grab them and walk them out. Want to make it easier? Grab the lead horse, and walk them out. Bet others will follow, and be near enough you're not trekking the entire field to do it.


Well haltering each horse and taking them out of the field was always my preference, but they're not my horses and not much I could do. And I think a large part in why my friend doesn't see a need for it is because she doesn't mind horses sniffing her pockets, leg, crowding her, whatever. She will tell them to stop, but the horses will keep doing it because she only uses her body language verbally and not physically. 

But for me, there is no need for the mates to be that close to you because all it takes is, they can sniff that can of hoof flex laying on the ground, it falls over and they spook and take off. And not only can they go your direction, but the horse that you are handling, you don't know how they will react. They could spin their hind end to you, they could take off. And some of these horses are big BIG horses, 1400lbs.

There was one herd of 3 big 1400lb horses with one being 16hh. My friend did it by herself because the BO was right there on the gator and I didn't know if he would be okay with me in there, so I let her do it by herself. Which I felt bad because she couldn't fend off the other two horses. They were all sniffing each other, cuddling, sniffing her pockets, rubbing on her etc. Did I want to get in there to help her? Yes. But I would have used the lead rope to push the other two out of her space but again, with the BO right there, I was a bit uncomfortable with how he would feel about it. So I just minded my own business.

But it took my friend I think about 20mins to complete that one herd of 3. When yes it would have been much easier and quicker to just halter each one and walk them out of the field.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> A PRIME example of why green plus green equals black and blue. We learn to handle ALL of these different things as we go along, and they must be dealt with as they come up. They cannot be taught in 2 days, weeks, months, or even years.
> 
> We would never remember all the details if someone tried to teach them. That is why it is called EXPERIENCE, and and what makes a person EXPERIENCED.


Are you saying that I couldn't handle those horses? I think I could have if I was to halter each one and take them out of the field myself and put them back in. Of course if I had my friend open and close the gate each time, it would make things that much easier.

If I had the luxury again to handle more horses (of all personalities, sizes and ages), I would gain a lot of experience from it. Because I'm so used to handling Fly and I know her well enough by now, that I'm so used to her.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> You mean halter every horse and do what we need to do outside of their field?
> 
> Well I did ask my friend how she wanted to go about it when we started. I suggested that we halter every horse and bring them in the barn or even just outside the horses field, but she said we didn't have enough time and whomever does this (usually her or one of the barn helpers), does it by them self and they never even halter the horses but they just go up to each one and does what they need to do. IMO, horses should be haltered for this because even if they know how to stand for you freely, you won't know who is having an off day, or what mares will be in heat and may not be as cooperative as you were hoping. So chances are, you will have to run back to get a halter anyways.
> 
> Well, when I heard this, I immediately thought the same, it's not the best scenario because you will have to spend so much time and energy keeping the mates off you.
> 
> I know for me though, I walked my horses a bit away from the rest of the herd so I could have that distance from the mates. Some herds are good in minding their own business, but others tried swarming you like a bunch of bees. But my friend said that she doesn't mind it when she is crowded by horses all around her.


How did you lead your horses away from the others? Didn't you have to halter them? What was to stop the others from following you?

For someone as safety conscious as yourself I'm surprised you would do something like that.
Here's why. (I'll overlook the facts that you were messing with other people's horses & applying hoof dressing, both things I would string you up for).
1. Loose horses in a group 
2. Trusting the horse being worked on to stand even if challenged by an upper ranking horse.
3. Bent over cleaning hooves & applying dressing puts your head at a perfect kicking level should anything happen.
4. Easy to get knocked over should any rukus start.
5. Even the nicest horse can throw a kick when a rope is snaked at it & you could find your rope about 2 feet too short.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, once again you are over-thinking horse care and handling. Do what is safe for you and forget critiquing what everyone else is doing.


Actually horses have a pretty good instinct about who can handle them and who can't. I've had non-horse friends ask to accompany me when I feed the horses and help----our horses will mind their manners for anyone who "knows" horses, staying back from the feed tubs until told ok. Even my grandkids, all of whom are becoming fine equestrians, demand respect from the horses. However, my horses were all over the newbie trying to feed them until I growled at them----they knew she was clueless and couldn't control them! 


Interesting even though our farrier is an excellent horse woman, our TWH mare will not let her catch her! Once caught the mare can be easily trimmed with just a dropped lead rope. We're sure there is something related to the years of abuse this mare endured that the farrier triggers memories of but have yet to figure out what it is.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> How did you lead your horses away from the others? Didn't you have to halter them? What was to stop the others from following you?
> 
> For someone as safety conscious as yourself I'm surprised you would do something like that.
> Here's why. (I'll overlook the facts that you were messing with other people's horses & applying hoof dressing, both things I would string you up for).
> 1. Loose horses in a group
> 2. Trusting the horse being worked on to stand even if challenged by an upper ranking horse.
> 3. Bent over cleaning hooves & applying dressing puts your head at a perfect kicking level should anything happen.
> 4. Easy to get knocked over should any rukus start.
> 5. Even the nicest horse can throw a kick when a rope is snaked at it & you could find your rope about 2 feet too short.


I would halter the horse and walk them away from the others in the field. Usually about 15-20ft. My friend held them with the halter and I put the dressing on.

Why would you be upset for me putting dressing on other people's horses? All these horses are the BO's horses, plus the trainer's gelding (which we asked the BO and he said to do it and my trainer would want it done). We didn't touch any of the boarders horses and Fly didn't get any dressing. 

If this was another girl doing it, she would have done the same in not touching any of the boarders horses.


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## Prairie

Duplicate post, sorry!


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## Prairie

Why in the world are you putting hoof dressing on the hooves? Hoof dressing softens the hooves which is the opposite of what you want----healthy hooves are hard! If the BO thinks the horses need hoof dressing he's not somebody to emulate since this is basic knowledge.


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## greentree

Hoofpic, I don't know if you can handle the horses or not! It just seems like the experienced person at the barn feels that you are only safe with YOUR MARE with one foot in the stirrup, which leads me to follow HER judgement...


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, once again you are over-thinking horse care and handling. Do what is safe for you and forget critiquing what everyone else is doing.


I don't mean to be critiquing anyone, but I will admit, it's hard at times to not let things bother me just a bit. I really like my two friends at the barn, but when doing stuff with them, because we have such different views on horsemanship, I have to either ignore or put a spin on things that I hear. But yes, I have recently made it a habit of minding my own business on stuff that I see that bothers me. I will just tell myself that yes I know it's wrong, I know it's not how I would handle/do or think it, but again it's not my horse and none of my business. 

Like the hoof dressing. Like I said, I am the ONLY person at the barn who doesn't use this stuff. I get asked it all the time on why I don't ever put dressing on Fly's feet. I tell them because she doesn't need it. But they will say, but all horses need it because their hoofs get dry. But I haven't put dressing on Fly's hooves in over 5 or 6 months now and that was the first time that I applied it in almost a year.

For instance I was handling this one gelding and I had his hind leg up. He kept trying to pull to break free but I wouldn't let him and I told him to quit. My friend said to just let his foot go and do another, but I said "No you can't"..."because then you will be teaching him that by pulling, he gets his foot back on the ground". So I kept holding on and eventually I got him to relax. But she was not happy with me because she said that I should have just let go way sooner. But I disagree. The horse knows how to pick up his hind legs. He wasn't being unhappy or uncomfortable. He was testing me. 



> Actually horses have a pretty good instinct about who can handle them and who can't. I've had non-horse friends ask to accompany me when I feed the horses and help----our horses will mind their manners for anyone who "knows" horses, staying back from the feed tubs until told ok. Even my grandkids, all of whom are becoming fine equestrians, demand respect from the horses. However, my horses were all over the newbie trying to feed them until I growled at them----they knew she was clueless and couldn't control them!


I have no doubt either that horses have a good instinct on who can and can't control them.



> Interesting even though our farrier is an excellent horse woman, our TWH mare will not let her catch her! Once caught the mare can be easily trimmed with just a dropped lead rope. We're sure there is something related to the years of abuse this mare endured that the farrier triggers memories of but have yet to figure out what it is.


This reminds me of what happened with the buckskin in Fly's herd. I love him but he can be quite hard to catch because he has associated the halter with work (getting his hooves trimmed, ridden though he hasn't been ridden in years, etc), so he will try to avoid being caught. This is why my friend says that he needs his own owner because hasn't had an owner in his 10 year life, so he doesn't get groomings, treats, etc. So when he sees the halter, he doesn't associate it with positive experiences.

I will note that I was able to catch him easily about 4 months ago when another girl was trying to catch him and she was having trouble so I offered to help and she accepted. 

But yesterday the BO wanted me to just apply the dressing on his hooves without catching him. So I went up to him with the hoof flex and I was able to get him to lift one of his feet up for me and I did it on one foot. But then he trots off and I knew we had to halter him. So I tried to catch him and I couldn't. I could get within 10ft from him but then he will trot off, so I applied pressure on him by getting him to go. Like my previous outside trainer taught me, if the horse is refusing to be caught and wants to go, then make them go. Move those feet. So I tried about 5 times and no luck. 

I tried cutting off his drive line, I approached him from the shoulder, hands down, and he would refused to be caught. So my friend just said to stop because we need to move on. I told her that we can't because if we do, then we have just taught this boy that he is allowed to escape from being caught. 

Like my trainer told me, if it takes 4 hours to catch the horse, you need to do it, you can't leave. But my friend just kept saying that we needed to move on to the other horses and unfortunately (as much as I didn't want to), I had to. I was not happy.


----------



## PoptartShop

I wouldn't have put the dressing on in a field with loose horses, but that's just me...recipe for disaster. Just be more careful next time.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, have you ever wondered why so many horses are testing you?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Why in the world are you putting hoof dressing on the hooves? Hoof dressing softens the hooves which is the opposite of what you want----healthy hooves are hard! If the BO thinks the horses need hoof dressing he's not somebody to emulate since this is basic knowledge.


Because some of the horses hooves were cracking. Some were really dry up along the hairlines.

The BO is still a great person to learn from but unfortunately I will disagree with him on this one. 

Like I said, every single person but me at the barn (even including my trainer) believes in hoof dressing and uses it.

Fly has very good feet. Does it get dry? Yes. Does she need dressing? I don't think so.

Her frogs and bulbs do get a bit dry though this time of year. Her hairlines seem pretty good, no cracks.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, have you ever wondered why so many horses are testing you?


What? if it was my friend doing their feet, I doubt it would have been any different. I did four horses feet yesterday and 3 tested me but I handled the corrections well.

I think the most important thing is that I'm not letting them have their way (aside from the buckskin in my herd who I couldn't catch, but my friend made me move on).


----------



## Prairie

The horses' hooves are not cracking because they are dry......it's either a genetic problem which can't be corrected, a feed issue, a farrier issue, or an environmental issue----the last 3 can be corrected!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, I don't know if you can handle the horses or not! It just seems like the experienced person at the barn feels that you are only safe with YOUR MARE with one foot in the stirrup, which leads me to follow HER judgement...


I don't get it, please clarify. Are you referring to my trainer? Because I can gaurentee that if you asked my trainer, she would be confident in me handling a lot of the horses at the barn. My trainer most likely couldn't say the same for others at the barn. 

My BO would say the same as well, except I know that he wouldn't get me to handle a few of his really dominate ones. Don't get me wrong, I would love to do it for experience and I'm confident I could do it. It would make me a much more versatile handler, I just don't have the luxury that I had at the previous barn where I could halter and handle any of the barn helper's 7 horses whenever I wanted (and 3 of them were studs). Mind you, I had a lot less experience last year and I wasn't even in the right mindset at that time, but just sayin'.


----------



## Prairie

How are you approaching and handling these horses so they are testing you? Most horses who are well trained only test those whom they figure can't handle them and have no respect for. What are you doing to cause this?


----------



## Golden Horse

This all has me scratching my head, right from Hoofpic harrolding again HARROWING, is the word you want.

Some people at my barn use a hoof dressing, but they always apply it when the horse is in being worked or before turn out or whatever. I have never ever seen a place where they would go around and routinely dress hooves out in pens or pasture, and doing it loose seems to be crazy.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> How are you approaching and handling these horses so they are testing you? Most horses who are well trained only test those whom they figure can't handle them and have no respect for. What are you doing to cause this?


I just go about handling them like any other horse, I don't over think it at all. Absolutely no different than if I was asking Fly to pick up her feet.

First off, my trainer's gelding is known to do stuff like this, to anyone. It's just who he is. He will test everyone and like I said, he refused to pick up his feet to my friend before I stepped in. The BO says that he is the one horse at the barn who tests the most and will never stop, he is relentless. He is 7 and is known as the big baby at the barn because of his personality.

Like my trainer said, you can correct him over and over again and amp it up each time and he will keep testing you, even with her. He has those days, I've seen it. It's not pretty. I've seen my trainer be extremely hard on him and this boy just keeps going like an energizer bunny. 

The other gelding was the black and white paint who my friend rides (the one who dislocated her elbow). Again, same thing. I approached him like any other horse. I know this boy is known to often test his riders as he is one of the school horses but he is only 7 and he has his days. I've seen times in the tack isle where he will just refuse to listen to his rider. Riders asking him 4 or 5 times for him to pick up his feet. He knows how to do it, he's just testing the rider.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> The horses' hooves are not cracking because they are dry......it's either a genetic problem which can't be corrected, a feed issue, a farrier issue, or an environmental issue----the last 3 can be corrected!


Yes and I agree but everyone at the barn believes that dressing helps dry and cracking hooves, which I don't agree with. But again, I just kept my mouth shut and I don't chime in. My two friends already know where I stand on dressing and I'm sure they think I'm out to lunch or "mistreating" Fly's hooves because I don't use dressing on her.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> This all has me scratching my head, right from Hoofpic harrolding again HARROWING, is the word you want.
> 
> Some people at my barn use a hoof dressing, but they always apply it when the horse is in being worked or before turn out or whatever. I have never ever seen a place where they would go around and routinely dress hooves out in pens or pasture, and doing it loose seems to be crazy.


I have never seen it either, so it was new to me, but I don't run the place. Does it seem a bit crazy to routinely dress horses hooves out in their fields and loose?

Like I said, everyone at my barn loves and swears by hoof dressing.

Do I see safety concerns applying dressing to any horse's hoofs while they are loose in the field with their mates? Yes and I saw it yesterday. This is why I asked my friend if we could halter the horses and bring them in. It at least takes away all the outside distractions. Bring them in, tie them up, yes it will take longer because you will have to catch 20+ horses, but the safety concerns are much less IMO. Am I right here?

Maybe the next time my friend does it, don't offer to help? Because after all, I'm not a believer in dressing. And if she's going to do it with the horses loose, then why put myself in that situation right?

From a scale of 1 to 10, how dangerous would you say applying dressing to horses loose in their field is? Just curious. This question is for all of you guys. TIA


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I just go about handling them like any other horse, I don't over think it at all. Absolutely no different than if I was asking Fly to pick up her feet.
> 
> First off, my trainer's gelding is known to do stuff like this, to anyone. It's just who he is. He will test everyone and like I said, he refused to pick up his feet to my friend before I stepped in. The BO says that he is the one horse at the barn who tests the most and will never stop, he is relentless. He is 7 and is known as the big baby at the barn because of his personality.
> 
> Like my trainer said, you can correct him over and over again and amp it up each time and he will keep testing you, even with her. He has those days, I've seen it. It's not pretty. I've seen my trainer be extremely hard on him and this boy just keeps going like an energizer bunny.
> 
> The other gelding was the black and white paint who my friend rides (the one who dislocated her elbow). Again, same thing. I approached him like any other horse. I know this boy is known to often test his riders as he is one of the school horses but he is only 7 and he has his days. I've seen times in the tack isle where he will just refuse to listen to his rider. Riders asking him 4 or 5 times for him to pick up his feet. He knows how to do it, he's just testing the rider.





However, it seems no matter which horse you handle, including Fly, you have troubles getting their respect----how many times have you posted that you have to correct Fly for some infraction of the rules?


Certainly some horses are more likely to test a handler----here it was our 2200, 18.2 hand Belgian, but it was only a couple times per year at most and usually related to crazy weather. The easy correction was to show him the stock whip to engage his brain. Even as a newbie in a hunter/jumper barn, I didn't have issues handling the hot heads, often OTTBs who needed time to settle in and come down from heating feed that made them energetic.


Do you really think all those months of doing groundwork under the Parelli instructor gave you the skills to handle horses? Are you still trying those techniques?


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## PoptartShop

If those other people at your barn want to risk putting dressing on loose horses in the field...let them, just don't do it yourself/get involved.
I put Rainmaker on Redz's hooves before turnout sometimes, because they need a little conditioner.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> However, it seems no matter which horse you handle, including Fly, you have troubles getting their respect----how many times have you posted that you have to correct Fly for some infraction of the rules?


Well I disagree. The 4 horses that I handled yesterday was actually the very first time me handling any of them. I don't see it as a big deal in them testing me. Like I said, they would do the same for my friend and there were more horses that tested my friend yesterday, even with her handling more. 



> Certainly some horses are more likely to test a handler----here it was our 2200, 18.2 hand Belgian, but it was only a couple times per year at most and usually related to crazy weather. The easy correction was to show him the stock whip to engage his brain. Even as a newbie in a hunter/jumper barn, I didn't have issues handling the hot heads, often OTTBs who needed time to settle in and come down from heating feed that made them energetic.


Who said I had trouble handling the horses yesterday?



> Do you really think all those months of doing groundwork under the Parelli instructor gave you the skills to handle horses? Are you still trying those techniques?


I never said that, but she did give me a few pieces of very valuable advice. And I only used her for one month. No I'm not using any of her techniques but there are some things that she said to me that still stand out in my mind today and will forever be planted in my brain moving forward because it was so beneficial to me.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I would halter the horse and walk them away from the others in the field. Usually about 15-20ft. My friend held them with the halter and I put the dressing on.
> 
> Why would you be upset for me putting dressing on other people's horses? All these horses are the BO's horses, plus the trainer's gelding (which we asked the BO and he said to do it and my trainer would want it done). We didn't touch any of the boarders horses and Fly didn't get any dressing.
> 
> If this was another girl doing it, she would have done the same in not touching any of the boarders horses.


Sorry, I didn't know you were doing a wanted favor. 

Did you know that for hoof dressing to do any good the hooves should be wet first? Then a dressing can help hold moisture in, whereas on a dry hoof a dressing can prevent moisture reaching the hoof but it looks pretty. Dressings made with petroleum products will dry out feet if applied dry. That is probably why the other people have cracked dry looking hooves while Fly's look nice. You'll never change their minds so best to keep doing as you have (or haven't) been.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> If those other people at your barn want to risk putting dressing on loose horses in the field...let them, just don't do it yourself/get involved.
> I put Rainmaker on Redz's hooves before turnout sometimes, because they need a little conditioner.


That's what I was thinking too (as much as I'm always wanting to help with barn chores), if my friend is going to do the dressing on horses while loose, then I probably shouldn't tag along, just for my own safety.

Do you think it's pretty dangerous?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> 3 km is nothing for a horse to walk, even in tall grass, and should take less than 30 minutes. Be sure to walk the ditches to make sure there is no trash that could hurt the horses like broken bottles, rusty metal, old tin cans, pop cans, etc. before taking the horse on it.


I always thought 3km would be too much, what if it's a hot day and they get really thirsty?

When I walk her in the ditch, I'm always checking for garbage or anything harmful.



> By contrast, our trail group often covers over 50 miles (80.5 km) in 8 hours, including a 30 minute break at noon for lunch, in challenging terrain climbing buttes and blazing our own path. However our horses are conditioned for this type of riding starting in early spring and are ridden most of the winter unless it's blizzard conditions, icy, or howling bitter winds.


That's a long ride. If I can start with 20mins on the trail with Fly then go from there I would be pleased.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Sorry, I didn't know you were doing a wanted favor.


It's okay, I just didn't want you to be upset at me.



> Did you know that for hoof dressing to do any good the hooves should be wet first?


I had no idea about this. How come everyone applies it dry? But wet hooves in general will make them soft. Soft hooves = not good.



> Then a dressing can help hold moisture in, whereas on a dry hoof a dressing can prevent moisture reaching the hoof but it looks pretty. Dressings made with petroleum products will dry out feet if applied dry. That is probably why the other people have cracked dry looking hooves while Fly's look nice. You'll never change their minds so best to keep doing as you have (or haven't) been.


I had no idea about this, wow. You're right, there are many people who apply it dry because it looks pretty. Even at the old barn, pretty much everyone there was so into dressings. Is it the way that these products are marketed? I mean, they make it sound like it's a necessity for any horse to have in order to achieve healthy hooves. 

I've always found them to be a PITA to apply anyways. Never cared for applying dressing.

I will never change anyone's minds at the barn on hoof dressings. Everyone is dead set on this stuff. 

One of my friends has put in her say and has tried to tell me time and time again that I should be using it on Fly but she doesn't understand that I won't use it. She told me that I'm overlooking a very critical part in horse care. 

When Fly's hooves get dry, is there anything else aside from dressing that I can do to them? Or just leave them?

When I get the chance, I will take some updated pics of Fly's hooves and post on here.

I found a great article.

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/13369/hoof-dressings-what-studies-show


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## greentree

Do YOU get seriously thirsty WALKING 3k???


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## Hoofpic

YES, Match just made my day. I'm totally shocked that they not only refunded me partial but the entire amount for this past Saturday, and without a fight. A one-time courtesy refund. I'm glad I contacted them and the chances of me attending that sushi event next month - no chance in hell. 

-----
Dear Steven,

I appreciate the time you've taken to contact Match. I'm very sorry for your dissatisfaction with the Match Event you attended.

As a one-time courtesy, we went ahead and refunded you for this event in the amount of $51.45. Funds should be received by your bank or credit card company within 1-2 billing statements. They can provide you more details about when it will appear on your statement, when the funds will be available to you, etc.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> YES, Match just made my day. I'm totally shocked that they not only refunded me partial but the entire amount for this past Saturday, and without a fight. A one-time courtesy refund. I'm glad I contacted them and the chances of me attending that sushi event next month - no chance in hell.


Well that's a shame, they made a mistake, they apologized and have refunded all your money without question, that is great customer service. They are probably out of pocket on that event now, by doing the right thing by their unhappy customers, they do that in the hopes of repeat business. I would give them one more chance


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Do YOU get seriously thirsty WALKING 3k???


On a hot day yes I do.


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## jaydee

Depends if you like sushi I suppose!!!


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Well that's a shame, they made a mistake, they apologized and have refunded all your money without question, that is great customer service. They are probably out of pocket on that event now, by doing the right thing by their unhappy customers, they do that in the hopes of repeat business. I would give them one more chance


I will see. I'm almost certain that I'm not the only one who contacted them to complain and it's Match's fault for false advertising. You will always **** people off when you do that and especially with the economy's situation over here, people in my province have been pinching their pennies all year.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> Depends if you like sushi I suppose!!!


I do but I'm not super crazy about it like I used to be. I rarely eat it these days, just on occasion. I have a feeling that an event like "sushi making" would draw a very good crowd. But then again, I thought that there would be a good crowd last Saturday lol.


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## greentree

Guess you really need to buy a subscription to the opera, or the symphony...


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I will see. I'm almost certain that I'm not the only one who contacted them to complain and it's Match's fault for false advertising. You will always **** people off when you do that and especially with the economy's situation over here, people in my province have been pinching their pennies all year.


Again, EVERY single company gets complaints, everyone gets things wrong, the big thing is what they do to put it right, but hey, you make up your own mind there.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Guess you really need to buy a subscription to the opera, or the symphony...


Not into that either. 

I know it's kinda wierd but I'm really only into horses and hockey. Photography and movies as well but on the more casual side. 

Other than that, nothing interests me in life.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I always thought 3km would be too much, what if it's a hot day and they get really thirsty?
> 
> When I walk her in the ditch, I'm always checking for garbage or anything harmful.
> 
> 
> *How faar do you think horse on pasture walks grazing? 3 km is less than the long sides of our pasture are.*
> 
> 
> 
> That's a long ride. If I can start with 20mins on the trail with Fly then go from there I would be pleased.





Hoofpic said:


> Well I disagree. The 4 horses that I handled yesterday was actually the very first time me handling any of them. I don't see it as a big deal in them testing me. Like I said, they would do the same for my friend and there were more horses that tested my friend yesterday, even with her handling more.
> 
> 
> 
> Who said I had trouble handling the horses yesterday?
> 
> 
> *You did---you had trouble catching one and had troubles with others doing their hooves.*
> 
> 
> 
> I never said that, but she did give me a few pieces of very valuable advice. And I only used her for one month. No I'm not using any of her techniques but there are some things that she said to me that still stand out in my mind today and will forever be planted in my brain moving forward because it was so beneficial to me.



*What valuable advice? How to use a carrot stick? That Fly wasn't ready to be ridden?*


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will see. I'm almost certain that I'm not the only one who contacted them to complain and it's Match's fault for false advertising. You will always **** people off when you do that and especially with the economy's situation over here, people in my province have been pinching their pennies all year.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, EVERY single company gets complaints, everyone gets things wrong, the big thing is what they do to put it right, but hey, you make up your own mind there.
Click to expand...

I know and I will think about it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> *What valuable advice? How to use a carrot stick? That Fly wasn't ready to be ridden?*


I know you guys didn't like my outside trainer, but it doesn't mean that she still didn't teach me some very valuable things. And she LOVED Fly!


----------



## jenkat86

You're seriously underestimating the abilities of your horse, and all horses really. 

When I go sorting, we are gone for about 6 hours. The horses get ridden hard. It's physically and mentally challenging for them and this past weekend it was in the 90s. My mare had water available but hardly drank any. She just wanted to chase more cows!

3km is nothing for a horse. These animals are made for work. Endurance. Athleticism. They can tolerate much more than you think. Fly would probably enjoy a 3km trail ride more than you know! You'd probably have a slightly better horse after the ride, too. 

Quit limiting yourself and your mare so much! You're missing out on a lot of fun by doing that.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well I'm all set for the trail ride tomorrow, I am so pumped. The lady called me tonight saying how there is a chance of showers and if there is, she will call me in the morning. If not, then we are good. *Fingers crossed*.

I will be taking pics and I should be on the road for about 5 hours total tomorrow, it will be a long day. 

The views are suppose to be really nice and if I get a chance, I will take pics of the wildies! I've never seen a herd of wildies in person.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> You're seriously underestimating the abilities of your horse, and all horses really.
> 
> When I go sorting, we are gone for about 6 hours. The horses get ridden hard. It's physically and mentally challenging for them and this past weekend it was in the 90s. My mare had water available but hardly drank any. She just wanted to chase more cows!
> 
> 3km is nothing for a horse. These animals are made for work. Endurance. Athleticism. They can tolerate much more than you think. Fly would probably enjoy a 3km trail ride more than you know! You'd probably have a slightly better horse after the ride, too.
> 
> Quit limiting yourself and your mare so much! You're missing out on a lot of fun by doing that.


I don't mean to limit myself, I'm just easing into things that's all. 

I'm confident that I could ride Fly in the ditch down to the mailbox, but I just want to be cautious that's all in case a car comes zipping down. I still think having another rider and horse come with us would really help put my mind at ease. Could I do it on my own? Yes. Is it risky? Yes. 

My BO still thinks I should just do it on my own and says that I will be fine.

Yes I was fully confident and calm when I rode Fly outside the barn and down the driveway for the very first time. But that's completely different than riding her on the street. 

What do you mean "I'd probably have a slightly better horse after the ride too?" Just curious.

I just wish our road was paved. If it was a mud road, it would be even better lol, it would be like walking in the arena. The ditch is just a PITA, you gotta deal with always checking for any sharp objects, gopher holes, big drops (sometimes it's hard too to see with tall grass), so you are never walking on flat terrain. Even when I walk Fly down there, it's harder on my feet because of all the inconsistent terrain levels.


----------



## Hoofpic

I know my friend wants to ride her mare down to the lake but she said Fly would have to come too because her mare won't go very far off the property because her mare will see her herd calling for her and she will stand there feet planted and not move. I've seen it, you can put extreme pressure on her and she still won't go.The last time she tried walking her mare down to the mailbox, her mare bolted back to her herd cause she saw her herd mates calling for her and my friend got bad rope burn in her hands.


----------



## Hoofpic

These are the games that I signed up for this Saturday for games day (in bold).

I'm confident I can win some games. I'm competitive and it will be a good challenge for me, some of these kids are really good and have been riding for many years.

Fly is super okay with the stakes and pole bending. Yesterday after I rode her, we did some pole bending and stakes and she has no problem with me reaching over to grab stakes from the ground and carry it on her side until we reach the bucket. The biggest challenge will be quickly getting my hand back up on the reins so I can turn her, since she isn't trained for one hand reining.

It's funny because Fly knows that we go back to the bucket so I can put the stake in it, so I will trot her back to it, but then she will stop for me once we reach the bucket lol. We are suppose to keep trotting, I don't know if she's stopping to get out of work or because she wants to help me get the stake in the bucket lol

I enjoy pole bending too. Obviously, the person who can push their horse and get the biggest trot will win it. 

Should you be posting or sitting the trot when doing stakes and pole bending?

_____

Dressage (times scheduled before lunch – riders should be presented neat and tidy with hair in a bun)

1A: Walk/Trot

1B: 2-Gait Tennessee Walking Horse

1C: Walk/Trot/Canter

1D: 3-Gait Tennessee Walking Horse

2. Command Class: Like Simon says – the last person to complete the task is eliminated (youth only please)

3. Catalog Game:

Riders ride down to the end of the arena, dismount, and find a page in a catalog (they will be given a

number to find). Then they rip out the page and run back to the start (older riders will need to mount

horses and ride back).

*4. Pole Bending:*

Ride to the end of the arena, weave through poles to the other end of the arena, then weave back.

Finish with a fast ride back to the starting point

*5. Flag Race:*

Riders work in teams of two relay style. The first rider goes out to collect a flag, then when they return

the partner rides out to get the next flag. Continues until all the flags have been collected

*6. Stake Game:*

Riders ride out and grab stakes that are in the arena then bring them back and put them in a bucket.

*7. Egg & Spoon:*

Ride holding an ‘egg’ (ball) on a spoon. Drop the ‘egg’ and you’re out!

*8. Water glass:*

Ride with a glass full of water – the rider with the most water left at the end of the class wins!

9. Bareback:

Hold a paper underneath your knee as you ride bareback. The rider who holds it the longest wins!

10: Freestyle Musical Ride:

Show us what you got! Riders create and ride a pattern set to music of their choice (teams of 2-4).

Costumes are encouraged and rides will be judged on creativity, use of arena, synchronicity, music

selection, and equitation. Riders should practice in advance and be ready to put on a show.


----------



## greentree

You are supposed to RUN!


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

That game day sounds like it will be fun!


----------



## PoptartShop

Hoofpic said:


> That's what I was thinking too (as much as I'm always wanting to help with barn chores), if my friend is going to do the dressing on horses while loose, then I probably shouldn't tag along, just for my own safety.
> 
> Do you think it's pretty dangerous?



Yeah I wouldn't tag along. Let them take the risk! It can be dangerous.
The games sound like so much fun!!!!  That'll be a good time!


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I don't mean to limit myself, I'm just easing into things that's all.
> 
> I'm confident that I could ride Fly in the ditch down to the mailbox, but I just want to be cautious that's all in case a car comes zipping down. I still think having another rider and horse come with us would really help put my mind at ease. Could I do it on my own? Yes. Is it risky? Yes.
> 
> My BO still thinks I should just do it on my own and says that I will be fine.
> 
> Yes I was fully confident and calm when I rode Fly outside the barn and down the driveway for the very first time. But that's completely different than riding her on the street.
> 
> What do you mean "I'd probably have a slightly better horse after the ride too?" Just curious.
> 
> I just wish our road was paved. If it was a mud road, it would be even better lol, it would be like walking in the arena. The ditch is just a PITA, you gotta deal with always checking for any sharp objects, gopher holes, big drops (sometimes it's hard too to see with tall grass), so you are never walking on flat terrain. Even when I walk Fly down there, it's harder on my feet because of all the inconsistent terrain levels.


If you ever had a horse do a slip & slide on a paved road you'd appreciate the gravel.


----------



## Tazzie

I despise riding on paved roads. I'll do anything I can to avoid it. Horses can handle varied terrain, just take it easy. The last thing you want is an accident on a paved road. She'll be fine in the ditch. Let her have some rein to bob her head to balance, and you'll be fine.

Have fun with your games weekend. Should be fun. Don't think about winning or beating anyone. Just go out and have a good time.


----------



## egrogan

Yes, I would definitely prefer riding on the gravel road than on pavement. I take full advantage of ditches and shoulders when riding.




















Although sometimes we have no choice but to be in the road because there is no shoulder! 



















If you're worried about cars, just buy a high vis reflective vest. Once I started wearing this one, it made a vast difference in how quickly I heard cars slowing down behind me. It looks extremely dorky, and I know people at the barn think I'm nuts, but it makes me much more comfortable riding on the road as often as I do.
Safe Riders Vest


----------



## TimWhit91

People don't trot poles, stakes or flag race. They are all to be done as fast as you can go. Games are super fun, have a good time


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You are supposed to RUN!


You mean canter?



3rdTimestheCharm said:


> That game day sounds like it will be fun!


I'm excited.



TimWhit91 said:


> People don't trot poles, stakes or flag race. They are all to be done as fast as you can go. Games are super fun, have a good time


So how do I get Fly to go as fast as she can? I don't know if she knows how to run yet.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Yeah I wouldn't tag along. Let them take the risk! It can be dangerous.
> The games sound like so much fun!!!!  That'll be a good time!


Okay, I won't help my friend anymore putting dressing on.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> If you ever had a horse do a slip & slide on a paved road you'd appreciate the gravel.


True, but gravel is so hard on their feet.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> You mean canter?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm excited.
> 
> 
> 
> So how do I get Fly to go as fast as she can? I don't know if she knows how to run yet.


You and Fly aren't ready to "run" since you can barely canter. Just trot her for the faster games so you don't lose control and have fun.


Unless you are asking a horse to gallop on gravel or the horse happens to get a piece of it caught in the hoof, all the gravel does is act like a rasp, sort of like using a nail file on your nails. Mustangs often roam areas full of rocks and the Tevis Cup, among the world's most difficult endurance rides, is has lots of rocky terrain for many miles.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> What do you mean "I'd probably have a slightly better horse after the ride too?" Just curious.


Horses benefit from work, and when you change up the routine it usually gets their minds working a little differently. In my case my mare becomes more responsive and willing and I don't have to work nearly as hard.


----------



## Prairie

jenkat86 said:


> Horses benefit from work, and when you change up the routine it usually gets their minds working a little differently. In my case my mare becomes more responsive and willing and I don't have to work nearly as hard.



Horses really benefit from a change from their normal routine. For example when I was showing hunter/jumpers, I normally trail rode my horse during the week to give him a break, keep him fresh, and help with conditioning him. Even though he had no "cow" I'd ride him out to check our cattle and count noses to change up his day. Also a horse only has so many jumps in him, so at home, I normally only worked over low fences once or twice a week if we'd run into an issue at the last show. 


Horses certainly become more responsive and willing when you don't bore them to death doing the same thing repeatedly! Horses are very versatile and some can excel at several disciplines under the right trainer/rider.


----------



## PoptartShop

I would stick to the trot as well, since you have not yet 'mastered' the canter. Trotting is fine, if I was doing games with Redz I would rather trot at the moment because I am also still working with his canter since he still has some of that 'racehorse' in him.
Trotting would be best & it will STILL be fun!


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Horses benefit from work, and when you change up the routine it usually gets their minds working a little differently.


DING DING DING!!!

This is exactly why I like variety and Ive been doing a good job in changing things up with Fly.

Unlike some people at the barn who just ride every single time and do the exact same stuff everytime
How is that fun for the horse?

I feel bad for their horses.

Im so sick and tired of getting asked, "aren't you riding today?" when I have a hangout day with Fly or whenever I bring her in and don't saddle her.

I dont have a one track mind and I see horse ownership as more than just riding.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean canter?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm excited.
> 
> 
> 
> So how do I get Fly to go as fast as she can? I don't know if she knows how to run yet.
> 
> 
> 
> You and Fly aren't ready to "run" since you can barely canter. Just trot her for the faster games so you don't lose control and have fun.
> 
> 
> Unless you are asking a horse to gallop on gravel or the horse happens to get a piece of it caught in the hoof, all the gravel does is act like a rasp, sort of like using a nail file on your nails. Mustangs often roam areas full of rocks and the Tevis Cup, among the world's most difficult endurance rides, is has lots of rocky terrain for many miles.
Click to expand...

Okay I will do that, trot Fly and likely post.

Im glad my ankle is back to normal now.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> DING DING DING!!!
> 
> This is exactly why I like variety and Ive been doing a good job in changing things up with Fly.
> 
> Unlike some people at the barn who just ride every single time and do the exact same stuff everytime
> How is that fun for the horse?
> 
> I feel bad for their horses.
> 
> Im so sick and tired of getting asked, "aren't you riding today?" when I have a hangout day with Fly or whenever I bring her in and don't saddle her.
> 
> I dont have a one track mind and I see horse ownership as more than just riding.



You are failing to understand what we mean when we say to change things up for the horse. It is not hanging out with them, grooming them, going out into their pasture or any of those Parelli games. Horses really prefer to hang out with other horses, not with people although some will be curious about what we are doing in their world---ours usually come in when we're working around the barn and pasture just to "help" by playing with any tools and getting in the way. They want to know what we're doing and most likely hoping a few treats will be handed out.


It's change what you ask them to do such as trail riding instead of arena work, taking them to different places to ride such as finding a new trail or using a different arena, perhaps exposing them to a new activity such as gathering cattle or working a barrel pattern, teaching them new discipline. By changing up their routine, you are activating their minds, exercising muscles, and working on respect.


----------



## PoptartShop

I agree- it's definitely important to switchup their routine. That's just like us...we would get tired of the same thing every day right?! So do the horses!


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> DING DING DING!!!
> 
> This is exactly why I like variety and Ive been doing a good job in changing things up with Fly.
> 
> Unlike some people at the barn who just ride every single time and do the exact same stuff everytime
> How is that fun for the horse?
> 
> I feel bad for their horses.
> 
> Im so sick and tired of getting asked, "aren't you riding today?" when I have a hangout day with Fly or whenever I bring her in and don't saddle her.
> 
> I dont have a one track mind and I see horse ownership as more than just riding.


Your're still not really getting it. 

Here's an analogy. I run. I usually run on a treadmill. And I get super bored with the treadmill. I can walk on the treadmill, run on the treadmill, do intervals on the treadmill, do inclines on the treadmill...but I still dread my workout. But if I run at the park, or down my road I enjoy it much more. It makes me feel more energized. It makes me pay attention to my footfalls and breathing better, I use different muscles and I see new scenery...and it keeps me wanting to run. 

So me doing other things on a treadmill is the same as you doing different "activities" with Fly. It just doesn't quite cut it. Getting off the property, long rides, trail riding, the games like poles and barrels that you posted earlier...those are the "changes" we are referring to that will make an impact.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well I got back from the trail ride today, it took 2.5hours each way. On the way back, it actually took me 3.5 hours because I was stopping to take pics of wildies. 

The drive out there is amazing, so peaceful and relaxing because there was almost no cars. I could totally live out in the country. So many nice scenaries. I didn't have reception up there so I couldn't post on here.

I love the ride (did the 2 hour) and it was a very good experience for me to get under my belt. It was just me and the guide, he set me up with a 10 year old 15.2hh paint gelding. 

We did the intermediate trail and there were a few spots where I was a bit nervous, like crossing a big river with very large rocks in the water. The water was about 1-1.5ft deep. But we made it across. 

Also a few fairly steep hills and dips but after a couple I was fine. I just remembered to lean back when going down a hill and lean forward when going up. It was good for the legs! 

There were some really narrow passageways through the forest that made me have to duck and such to avoid getting wack with branches. Also some areas where you walk along a cliff and I was a bit nervous since I don't like heights. 

The only bad thing is that I rode without a helmet on. Because I just booked this ride 2 days ago and I didn't go to the barn yesterday (or today), I was contemplating on whether I should go to the barn for just my helmet but I didn't want to make a special trip last night so I didn't get my helmet. 

I was hoping maybe they had helmets for me to use but they didn't. With these guys, it's also not mandatory for their riders to wear helmets (which I'm surprised about). After riding that 2 hour trail, I most definitely will be wearing my helmet next time I go back (and I forsure will be). I know it wasn't very smart for someone like me (who has never ridden trails before) to ride with no helmet, especially going over the large river. That could have ended up really bad especially with all the big rocks and me never ridden a horse in water before, let alone a large river with a fast moving stream, deep water and big rocks. 

But my guide was great, he helped me and waited for me and made sure I was okay. It was a bit nerve racking at first.

I wish I had my helmet on mainly because I wanted to record most (if not at least some) of the trail ride for you guys. 

These guys are only open until Oct 15, then they shut down until next Spring. If I can find time and the weather holds up, I might just make another trip up there before then. Then yes I will wear my helmet and record it for you guys. 

I'm sorry that I disappointed all of you for not wearing a helmet. I know it was not a very wise move.


----------



## Hoofpic

A couple pics on the way, about 75% there to the place.


















This is the closest that I stood to the cliff. I am so scared of heights and I wouldn't get any closer.


----------



## Hoofpic

When I first showed up, this is what they all did.










Nice chubby mare. Looked pregnant.










This boy loved me, he kept coming up to me.


















The cutest boy I've ever seen. How old does he look? He loved the camera and kept coming up but he was a bit timid.


----------



## Hoofpic




----------



## Hoofpic

I loved this paint. Very interesting colours.




















































Happy herd


----------



## natisha

I'm glad you had a good time. Beautiful area.
Did you know they didn't require helmets before you left?


----------



## Tazzie

You really have an eye with your photography! A few of those I wouldn't mind buying and putting in my house :lol:

As for the helmets, I typically don't wear them on a guided trail. Most of the time when we do them, it's a spur of the moment decision, I don't have my helmet, and the thought of using one of theirs disgusts me (I SO don't want to bring lice into our house....) With my own horse, I'd rather not ride than not have my helmet. I know her, and I know how opinionated she gets. Typically with the trail horses, there isn't much you can do to make them tick (I say typically since there is always that chance.) I also typically write down a level below what I ride. I've never, ever put expert on a sheet. I figure I'm there to enjoy the scenery, not help them train a horse. Only once have I ever gotten a horse at my skill level, and it was at my grandma's husband's former ranch. I had already sent in my paperwork saying Intermediate rider when he came out to watch me ride. My mare I was training was having a mare day and proceeded to attempt to rear and buck. I sent her forward and that was that. He gave me a horse only the ranch hands had ridden. I was the only guest to have ever ridden that horse. Under normal trail riding circumstances, I'll always say I'm a lower level than I am (which I'm not saying I'm an expert since I feel no one can truly be considered a full on expert, but I'm not a fresh intermediate either.)


----------



## GMA100

I thought I'd pop in and say I LOVE YOUR PICTURES!!! especially the first one of the little group! 
Sounds like you had a good time!


----------



## PoptartShop

That sounds like a nice trail! Wow it's absolutely beautiful. I'm jealous!

Beautiful pictures too, you really have a nitch for photography. 
The horses are lovely!


----------



## weeedlady

Beautiful photos. You are a talented photographer. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Prairie

Thanks for sharing the pictures.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I'm glad you had a good time. Beautiful area.
> Did you know they didn't require helmets before you left?


The drive there was very nice, pleasantly surprised. I might have to make another trip up there in the next couple weeks. It was such a big change from even at the barn, not a single car in sight, no noise anywhere, not even the birds. Complete isolation.

I didn't know that this place didn't have helmets mandatory, I was very surprised. You would you most trail places do have this in place for liability reasons alone.

The guide yesterday told me that one of the ladies (who runs her own barn), broke her arm last summer due to her not paying attention on the trail. There was a dip coming up and she was caught by surprise and fell off. 

After experiencing one of the trails yesterday, I could see many ways to get hurt on that trail. No matter how well trained your horse is, some times you just can't prevent the inevitable. The most well trained trail ride horse can still spook when you least expect it. And what I was surprised about, was that they put me on the youngest horse there and the one with the least amount of trail experience. He only has 1 year and he was bought just last year. He used to work with cattle. But he was so well behaved and I barely had to do much steering. He knew the drill and routine following the leader ahead. 

I most definitely should have made the special trip up to my barn the night before to grab my helmet, I regret it because I wanted to record the ride as well. But now I know for next time. But it wasn't too smart on my part riding without my helmet.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> The drive there was very nice, pleasantly surprised. I might have to make another trip up there in the next couple weeks. It was such a big change from even at the barn, not a single car in sight, no noise anywhere, not even the birds. Complete isolation.
> 
> I didn't know that this place didn't have helmets mandatory, I was very surprised. You would you most trail places do have this in place for liability reasons alone.
> 
> The guide yesterday told me that one of the ladies (who runs her own barn), broke her arm last summer due to her not paying attention on the trail. There was a dip coming up and she was caught by surprise and fell off.
> 
> After experiencing one of the trails yesterday, I could see many ways to get hurt on that trail. No matter how well trained your horse is, some times you just can't prevent the inevitable.
> 
> I most definitely should have made the special trip up to my barn the night before to grab my helmet, I regret it because I wanted to record the ride as well. But now I know for next time.


I was thinking more along the line that you could have made a long drive for nothing if they mandated helmets. You got lucky.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> And what I was surprised about, was that they put me on the youngest horse there and the one with the least amount of trail experience. He only has 1 year and he was bought just last year. He used to work with cattle. But he was so well behaved and I barely had to do much steering. He knew the drill and routine following the leader ahead.


Back to what you've already heard- the age of a horse doesn't carry that big of an impact on how they act. Well trained horses are well trained horses.

It looks like it was a beautiful ride and your pictures are wonderful. My sister used to live in Lethbridge and the country up and around there was beautiful. That type of trail sure beats what some of us have access to!


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> You really have an eye with your photography! A few of those I wouldn't mind buying and putting in my house :lol:
> 
> As for the helmets, I typically don't wear them on a guided trail. Most of the time when we do them, it's a spur of the moment decision, I don't have my helmet, and the thought of using one of theirs disgusts me (I SO don't want to bring lice into our house....) With my own horse, I'd rather not ride than not have my helmet. I know her, and I know how opinionated she gets. Typically with the trail horses, there isn't much you can do to make them tick (I say typically since there is always that chance.) I also typically write down a level below what I ride. I've never, ever put expert on a sheet. I figure I'm there to enjoy the scenery, not help them train a horse. Only once have I ever gotten a horse at my skill level, and it was at my grandma's husband's former ranch. I had already sent in my paperwork saying Intermediate rider when he came out to watch me ride. My mare I was training was having a mare day and proceeded to attempt to rear and buck. I sent her forward and that was that. He gave me a horse only the ranch hands had ridden. I was the only guest to have ever ridden that horse. Under normal trail riding circumstances, I'll always say I'm a lower level than I am (which I'm not saying I'm an expert since I feel no one can truly be considered a full on expert, but I'm not a fresh intermediate either.)


I wouldn't be comfortable using other people's helmets either haha, gross. I was just lazy and didn't feel like making the trip up to the barn on Tuesday night.

I know those horses are so well trained for the trails (nothing phases them), having a horse walk in such tight corridors and pathways, while having so many branches constantly brush up against them like it's nothing to them is amazing.

I think if anyone could get their horse to this stage is quite the accomplishment. Even though Fly has been ridden on the trails before, she is far from being at this stage. She would not like having all those branches rub up against her, she would be looking around for predators and be on super high alert. Even though the previous owner has taken her over bridges and small creeks, definitely nothing like the rivers that we went through. I will admit, it's a little nerve racking because you don't know if the horse is going to trip stepping on those huge and very uneven rocks.

Isn't walking on those huge rocks bad for a horses feet? How do they find their balance when all of their feet are coming in contact with the ground at different angles? I mean I know their hoofs grip onto things really well, but rocks under water are slippery. Plus they have to look through the water to make sure there's nothing of danger to them under there.


----------



## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> I thought I'd pop in and say I LOVE YOUR PICTURES!!! especially the first one of the little group!
> Sounds like you had a good time!





PoptartShop said:


> That sounds like a nice trail! Wow it's absolutely beautiful. I'm jealous!
> 
> Beautiful pictures too, you really have a nitch for photography.
> The horses are lovely!


Thanks. I tried to get a picture of the entire herd but they were too spread out and I couldn't get any closer than the far fence since it was well wired off (from what it looked to be electric). I didn't see anyone in the barn way into the background so I wasn't sure if it was private property and these were someone's horses or if they were completely free. I wanted to hop the fencing to get closer pictures, but I knew it wouldn't be a good idea in case someone caught me.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I was thinking more along the line that you could have made a long drive for nothing if they mandated helmets. You got lucky.


I got lucky but when my friend booked for us to go a few weeks ago, I remember her mentioning something about helmets not being mandatory, I didn't know if she was kidding or not. But still I should have called to check before going.


----------



## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> I think if anyone could get their horse to this stage is quite the accomplishment. Even though Fly has been ridden on the trails before, she is far from being at this stage. She would not like having all those branches rub up against her, she would be looking around for predators and be on super high alert. Even though the previous owner has taken her over bridges and small creeks, definitely nothing like the rivers that we went through. I will admit, it's a little nerve racking because you don't know if the horse is going to trip stepping on those huge and very uneven rocks.


Well yes, it does take a commitment to riding out and putting in the miles. But it's not an impossible task. If you aspire to do this with Fly, you should read this thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/how-we-train-fearless-trail-horse-99776/

Why do you think she would be bothered by riding through brush or on "high alert?" In all the videos you've shown us, she's such a quiet horse, I think you are making up things that will worry her because they worry _you_ (which is totally normal if you're primarily an arena rider- I worried unnecessarily when I started riding out too!). Take that ride to the lake, give her a chance to show you she can handle it- but don't go with the expectation that she's scared of everything around her.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Back to what you've already heard- the age of a horse doesn't carry that big of an impact on how they act. Well trained horses are well trained horses.
> 
> It looks like it was a beautiful ride and your pictures are wonderful. My sister used to live in Lethbridge and the country up and around there was beautiful. That type of trail sure beats what some of us have access to!


Thanks. I've never been up to Lethbridge before but if there are horses on the way, it makes the drive so much better. When I drove up to Medicine Hat a few months ago for that Horse show, it was boring flat lands and no horses, just all cattle, not even any trees or mountains. There were actually quite a few herds on the way yesterday but I noticed that many were other people's horses.

It's amazing how relaxing and calming it is being out in the nature with zero noise and congestion out there. Not even my barn compared to it because it wasn't all that far from city limits and doesn't have the trees, scenery etc.

I would choose a drive out to where I was yesterday or any small countryside with almost zero people, than a place like Banff (where all the hype is because of the mountains). The only bad thing is that once you get onto the countryside, it would suck to break down...you have no phone reception and pretty much zero cars passing through there.


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## Golden Horse

OK, Hoofpic, think about what you are saying, and it will save you a world of trouble.

First there was no reason to raise the helmet issue at all, no one here would have ever asked "OOH, did you wear a helmet?" So in future, just leave out that small detail.

Next when you say this



> The only bad thing is that I rode without a helmet on. Because I just booked this ride 2 days ago and I didn't go to the barn yesterday (or today), I was contemplating on whether I should go to the barn for just my helmet but I didn't want to make a special trip last night so I didn't get my helmet.
> 
> *I was hoping maybe they had helmets for me to use but they didn't*.


It does not make sense to say this a couple of posts later



> I wouldn't be comfortable using other people's helmets either haha, gross. I was just lazy and didn't feel like making the trip up to the barn on Tuesday night.


It does not make sense.


Anyway lesson learned, anytime you are going to ride somewhere else, take your own helmet, plan ahead, if you see Fly on a Sunday, and you are going to ride somewhere else on a Tuesday, and you are not going back to the barn, then take your helmet with you.

Glad you enjoyed your ride


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Your're still not really getting it.
> 
> Here's an analogy. I run. I usually run on a treadmill. And I get super bored with the treadmill. I can walk on the treadmill, run on the treadmill, do intervals on the treadmill, do inclines on the treadmill...but I still dread my workout. But if I run at the park, or down my road I enjoy it much more. It makes me feel more energized. It makes me pay attention to my footfalls and breathing better, I use different muscles and I see new scenery...and it keeps me wanting to run.
> 
> So me doing other things on a treadmill is the same as you doing different "activities" with Fly. It just doesn't quite cut it. Getting off the property, long rides, trail riding, the games like poles and barrels that you posted earlier...those are the "changes" we are referring to that will make an impact.


I get it now, I see what you mean. So if I ride Fly down to the mailbox, that would be a good start and a good change right? But walking her down to the mailbox doesn't really count does it?

When I do ride Fly down the street, perhaps it would be best if we walked on the gravel for the first time? Even though I hate walking her on gravel. I could perhaps just start with 20ft, then increase the distance after each time. I'm just not comfortable when a car comes by, often cars are going way too fast on this road and the road isn't exactly all that wide either.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> When I do ride Fly down the street, perhaps it would be best if we walked on the gravel for the first time? Even though I hate walking her on gravel. I could perhaps just start with 20ft, then increase the distance after each time. I'm just not comfortable when a car comes by, often cars are going way too fast on this road and the road isn't exactly all that wide either.


The only way you are going to get comfortable with something is to do it. 

Ride her to the mailbox. Walk in gravel...it won't hurt her. If it does, discuss it with your farrier.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Well yes, it does take a commitment to riding out and putting in the miles. But it's not an impossible task. If you aspire to do this with Fly, you should read this thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/how-we-train-fearless-trail-horse-99776/
> 
> Why do you think she would be bothered by riding through brush or on "high alert?" In all the videos you've shown us, she's such a quiet horse, I think you are making up things that will worry her because they worry _you_ (which is totally normal if you're primarily an arena rider- I worried unnecessarily when I started riding out too!). Take that ride to the lake, give her a chance to show you she can handle it- but don't go with the expectation that she's scared of everything around her.


Thanks for the link. I would do it with Fly but the only thing is hauling her. Chances of me riding Fly on big trails are IMO pretty slim simply because I don't have the convenience of owning a truck and trailer and it would get pretty costly quickly paying for someone to haul. I know my trainer would offer and have no problem hauling Fly for me to places not too far away from the barn.

And my trainer can expect me to at least come to her once next Spring to see if she can haul Fly for me because I plan on taking Fly somewhere next Spring/Summer, whether it's a place like yesterday where you can haul your own horse and ride with the guides, or a clinic. There's still no doubt in my mind that my interest for riding is out on the trail, not in the arena. But I know riding in the arena has to be done to make me a better rider and make Fly a more knowledgeable horse. 

Riding her to the lake would be a great achievement but I need to start with the mailbox first and before that, just down the road. 

I've never seen Fly on a trail before but when I was at the place yesterday, I couldn't help but imagine. Like when I was talking with my guide about it, you can't just throw in a horse on his trail right away, you have to work them in. But I believer in her.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> The only way you are going to get comfortable with something is to do it.
> 
> Ride her to the mailbox. Walk in gravel...it won't hurt her. If it does, discuss it with your farrier.


So you don't think I'm taking a risk by not waiting for my trainer to come along with us? I am brave, and I want to achieve stuff without always having my hand held. But I also have to be safe when needed. You're tempting me, I'm almost tempted to try this today when I head to the barn. 

Obviously my BO doesn't feel that I need to wait for my trainer. And that really meant a lot to me when he said that to me because obviously he didnt' feel this way a year ago when I arrived at the barn.


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## Prairie

You are overthinking again! First horses tend to be very sure footed so normally there is no reason to worry about the terrain and what you are crossing especially on a planned trail ride using their horses. 12 to 18 inch deep water is nothing since horses are strong swimmers. The age of the is not what counts for safety---it's training and the individual personality/temperament of the horse!


You also need to stop making assumptions about how Fly will respond to different situations. She's about as a horse as you could find and takes everything in stride. Remember us telling you that horses are very good at reading us so you need to stay positive and not worry about the what-ifs!


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## Golden Horse

You know what I would do, ask one of your friends to walk along side you first time, just to give you someone to chat to while you ride down there and back, if they aren't on a horse you reduce the risk factor of them having a spook and causing an issue. Do it soon, before the winter arrives, and it gets icy, don't make a big deal, how far is it to this mail box?


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## PoptartShop

I second @Golden Horse, have someone go with you. I've found that if you are with someone and talking, the horses sense that things are 'OK' and that reassures them. It really helps.  

As for the helmet...I keep mine with me in my car in the backseat. That way, it's always on me!


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> OK, Hoofpic, think about what you are saying, and it will save you a world of trouble.
> 
> First there was no reason to raise the helmet issue at all, no one here would have ever asked "OOH, did you wear a helmet?" So in future, just leave out that small detail.
> 
> Next when you say this
> 
> It does not make sense to say this a couple of posts later
> 
> It does not make sense.
> 
> Anyway lesson learned, anytime you are going to ride somewhere else, take your own helmet, plan ahead, if you see Fly on a Sunday, and you are going to ride somewhere else on a Tuesday, and you are not going back to the barn, then take your helmet with you.
> 
> Glad you enjoyed your ride


Better to be safe than sorry. I know seeing how this was my very first trail ride and it wasn't exactly a beginner trail, I should have planned ahead and got my helmet. I wouldn't be comfortable wearing a strangers helmet, but if I had to I would do it. I brought it up because I knew that I did something that was risky and I should have worn my helmet so I can be hard on myself at times. Thankfully, I am okay and nothing happened but I wouldn't be saying the same if I did get hurt yesterday.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> So you don't think I'm taking a risk by not waiting for my trainer to come along with us? I am brave, and I want to achieve stuff without always having my hand held. But I also have to be safe when needed. You're tempting me, I'm almost tempted to try this today when I head to the barn.
> 
> Obviously my BO doesn't feel that I need to wait for my trainer. And that really meant a lot to me when he said that to me because obviously he didnt' feel this way a year ago when I arrived at the barn.


How does your trainer being there make you any safer? 

In your mind, what is the absolute worst thing that could go wrong?

At some point you have to trust _yourself._


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> You are overthinking again! First horses tend to be very sure footed so normally there is no reason to worry about the terrain and what you are crossing especially on a planned trail ride using their horses. 12 to 18 inch deep water is nothing since horses are strong swimmers. The age of the is not what counts for safety---it's training and the individual personality/temperament of the horse!


Okay thanks, I didn't know that horses are strong swimmers.



> You also need to stop making assumptions about how Fly will respond to different situations. She's about as a horse as you could find and takes everything in stride. Remember us telling you that horses are very good at reading us so you need to stay positive and not worry about the what-ifs!


I've been doing pretty good pver the past few months in believing in Fly and keeping positive, not anticipating anything. I'm not trying to make excuses for myself again (I won't let myself get in this bad habit of thinking again), and I don't know why I'm a bit nervous on riding Fly down the street. Perhaps it's just riding on the road away from the barn is something that I've never even experienced myself. For some reason, I've always seen riding a horse down the street as a big achievement and you have to work up to it. 

But you are right, I should just do it and stay positive and go about it as if it's no big deal for Fly (the mindset that I had for Fly when riding over the bridge, tarp, flag, etc). I need to stop it and riding her down to the mailbox is no different than anything else that I've done with her. 

I'm going to try it today and I will go there with a completely clear mind and I will record it.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> How does your trainer being there make you any safer?
> 
> In your mind, what is the absolute worst thing that could go wrong?
> 
> At some point you have to trust _yourself._


Well according to my friend, going with someone gives that horse comfort and tells them that everything is okay (which IMO I think is bogus, no horse needs comfort). They need leadership and that comes from the rider. Not the other rider on the other horse.

This is why my friend wants to ride to the lake, but she will only do it if I go with her because she believes her mare (who is herd mates with Fly) needs Fly as comfort.

Which I can't fall for that because I don't believe in that.


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## Hoofpic

Well this is definitely NOT good news.

The BO was admitted to the hospital yesterday and my trainer has postponed games day.

I hope he gets better soon. He is not expected back home for some time. 

Looks like my trainer is going to run the place for the time being. She made the right call by postponing games day.


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## Prairie

Actually having a confident, friendly horse along to help teach a youngster that what he's experiencing is NBD is a trick many trail riders use when first riding out on a trail. Whenever a new horse and/or rider comes on one of our trail groups rides, several of us on calm, friendly horses will subtly surround them as a precaution and the unspoken rule is the trail boss will take a route that even a greenie can successfully complete. 


However, in the case of Fly and the other girl's horse, both are greenies so this would not apply. Certainly by now you've been riding long enough to take Fly for a short jaunt by yourself. She's certainly seen vehicles moving before so don't expect her to react to them and you both will be fine.


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## greentree

Why don't you ask your trainer if you can ride the lesson horse down to the mailbox?


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## Hoofpic

I have to admit my spirits are down, now after I found out the BO went into emerg yesterday. The exact same thing happened at the previous barn and the BO was in the hospital for over 3 months and it took him almost 5 months before he got back to his normal routine. Of course when he went in, I picked up the slack and took on more workload with more barn chores (which I didn't mind at all). 

I expect the same thing at the barn now where the overall mood and spirit just won't be the same for the next while. At the old barn it was sad and depressing. But having gone through that, I will not let the negatives get the best of me and I will keep my head up and stay positive moving forward with what I need to work on with Fly. But it's going to be incredibly tough because I know everyone will be talking about it at the barn everyday. 

I just talked with my two friends and they're broken right now. 

With that being said, I still plan on riding Fly down to the mailbox today.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Actually having a confident, friendly horse along to help teach a youngster that what he's experiencing is NBD is a trick many trail riders use when first riding out on a trail. Whenever a new horse and/or rider comes on one of our trail groups rides, several of us on calm, friendly horses will subtly surround them as a precaution and the unspoken rule is the trail boss will take a route that even a greenie can successfully complete.
> 
> 
> However, in the case of Fly and the other girl's horse, both are greenies so this would not apply. Certainly by now you've been riding long enough to take Fly for a short jaunt by yourself. She's certainly seen vehicles moving before so don't expect her to react to them and you both will be fine.


Thanks and yes I agree. I will be taking Fly by myself down to the mailbox. I am confident in her and confident we can do it. 

It will be a nice change for Fly as well.



greentree said:


> Why don't you ask your trainer if you can ride the lesson horse down to the mailbox?


IMO no point. I will ride Fly to the mailbox.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> You know what I would do, ask one of your friends to walk along side you first time, just to give you someone to chat to while you ride down there and back, if they aren't on a horse you reduce the risk factor of them having a spook and causing an issue. Do it soon, before the winter arrives, and it gets icy, don't make a big deal, how far is it to this mail box?


The mailbox is 1km from the barn.


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## Hoofpic

Just to cheer me up a bit.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Better to be safe than sorry. I know seeing how this was my very first trail ride and it wasn't exactly a beginner trail, I should have planned ahead and got my helmet. I wouldn't be comfortable wearing a strangers helmet, but if I had to I would do it. I brought it up because I knew that I did something that was risky and I should have worn my helmet so I can be hard on myself at times. Thankfully, I am okay and nothing happened but I wouldn't be saying the same if I did get hurt yesterday.


You need a few risks in your life. You know the saying, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". Not that you're doing anything that can kill you, usually.

I don't think you realize how far you've come with your horse adventure but onlookers can see it.


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## PoptartShop

Sorry to hear about the BO. 
As for the mailbox, nothing wrong with going with a friend. It can help calm the nerves.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> You need a few risks in your life. You know the saying, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger". Not that you're doing anything that can kill you, usually.
> 
> I don't think you realize how far you've come with your horse adventure but onlookers can see it.


Thanks. This year has been huge for me in my learning and for me, the next step is to get my core and legs stronger as a rider. I would not be where I am today if I was still at the old barn doing feed and barn chores everyday.

I do like taking risks and you are right, I should just do it. What's there to lose?

It's not like Fly is an uncontrollable horse. I have gotten her confident up over the past 5-6 months and IMO I think riding on the road to the mailbox will only build on that, will it not? 

I have walked her down to the mailbox about 4 or 5 times so far, and she was good with it. 

I look forward to recording the walk for you guys later today.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Sorry to hear about the BO.
> As for the mailbox, nothing wrong with going with a friend. It can help calm the nerves.


I think we are all just glad that he accepted and acknowledged that he needed medical help. I don't like doctors just as much as he doesn't, but if you need their help, then you need their help.

I think it's safe to say that I will go visit him with one of my friends when the time comes and visitors are allowed.


----------



## Greenmeadows

I am so sorry to hear about your B O, I hope he recovers soon! 

Hope your ride goes well! I think riding to the mailbox will be a good start for you and Fly.


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## Prairie

Sorry about the BO. I'm sure others will help pick up the slake too,.


Stop worrying about how far those places you want to ride to are and just mount up and do it. Most horses are quite capable of completely a 25 mile (40.2 km) endurance ride (LD) successfully.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks and yes I agree. I will be taking Fly by myself down to the mailbox. I am confident in her and confident we can do it.
> 
> It will be a nice change for Fly as well.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO no point. I will ride Fly to the mailbox.


I see, quite a turnaround in the last few posts! 

Can we please have BO's first name so that we may pray for him?


----------



## Hoofpic

Okay I rode but only half way down to the box. I think Fly was getting some ouchies on her feet, a few times where she would half stumble. I was a bit concerned so I turned around at half way.i will post the video tonight.

Then tomorrow I will do the same thing but we will go down to the box. Surprisingly I wasnt nervous at all.

She was good but for some reason, she was really concerned about a truck that was on the side in the crops field. She wouldn't go but after a couple boots I made her.

No passing cars today.

My trainer was there today and she asked how Fly was, I said good. I think she was surprised that I rode Fly down on the road by myself. Obviously she is okay with it and is confident I am at that level right now where I could do it without needing her next to me.


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## Prairie

More than likely she wasn't sore from walking down the driveway. She probably was too busy looking around at the new sites and not paying attention to where she was placing her feet so she stumbled. A horse who is sore footed limps.


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## Hoofpic

Can I ask something? Say you are leading your horse and you catch up with a friend and you two talk. But your horse sees something and wants to keep going up to sniff it. Do you let them or do you expect your horse to stand and not move while you talk with your friend?

I dont know what is but when Im with my trainer, she always makes me a bit more self cautious in how I handle Fly.

Remember how when I first got to the barn last Fall, she said I was too hard on Fly? She said that I was way too hard on her and I need to ease up on the amount of pressure that I put on her.

Today I was putting Fly back in the field and I ended up talking with my trainer for maybe 15mins so I wanted her to stand. Well the hay wagon was a few feet away and there was a couple horses eating from the wagon and Fly wanted to go sniff the wagon to see whats up.

I corrected her a few times and got her to back up but she kept trying. I really wanted (and felt I should have) laid down a really hard correction on the 3rd time but with my trainer there I was self cautious. 

Would you have corrected Fly hard?

My trainer said that she was testing me.

I don't know what it is, but when Im around any trainer I always feel like Im under the microscope.


----------



## GMA100

So sorry to hear about your BO, hope he gets better soon, and I'm sure he is thankful for everyone pulling extra weight to help around the barn. 


Prairie said:


> More than likely she wasn't sore from walking down the driveway. She probably was too busy looking around at the new sites and not paying attention to where she was placing her feet so she stumbled. A horse who is sore footed limps.


^^^This, I bet you this is what happened.




Oh yes, I meant to ask earlier, what camera do you use?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks and yes I agree. I will be taking Fly by myself down to the mailbox. I am confident in her and confident we can do it.
> 
> It will be a nice change for Fly as well.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO no point. I will ride Fly to the mailbox.
> 
> 
> 
> I see, quite a turnaround in the last few posts!
> 
> Can we please have BO's first name so that we may pray for him?
Click to expand...

Thanks his name is Hilton.

I think its more of a precautionary measure than anything. He had blood tests done and his Doctor said he needed to go into emerg. Talking with the trainer today and she said that he will be there for at least a week.

The BO at the old barn had a heart attack, so much different situation. And the worst part is that he blamed it on his boarders.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Stop worrying about how far those places you want to ride to are and just mount up and do it. Most horses are quite capable of completely a 25 mile (40.2 km) endurance ride (LD) successfully.


Thanks,I think thats the most important thing.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> More than likely she wasn't sore from walking down the driveway. She probably was too busy looking around at the new sites and not paying attention to where she was placing her feet so she stumbled. A horse who is sore footed limps.


You think so? I wasn't sure so I headed back early just in case walking on that gravel was uncomfortable for her feet. Hoping to get back on her tomorrow and go all the way down to the box.

I will post my video.


----------



## Hoofpic

Just to give you guys an idea of how nice it was out there.

Looks like two mares in the first video?


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> You think so? I wasn't sure so I headed back early just in case walking on that gravel was uncomfortable for her feet. Hoping to get back on her tomorrow and go all the way down to the box.


I'm positive this was the reason too. My mare will stumble when she loses her focus on me, and stops being aware of where her feet are. This usually results in a semi strong half halt, and a verbal "pay attention please" command from me. When my mare is having a sensitive feet day (she just plain doesn't like walking on gravel, but will) then she practically tip toes and knows where her feet are at all times. She's hyper aware and I can promise you does not stumble on it.

I'd go for it again. If she stumbles a bit, redirect her attention to you.

I'm glad you went out though! Good work!


----------



## Hoofpic

Hoofpic said:


> Can I ask something? Say you are leading your horse and you catch up with a friend and you two talk. But your horse sees something and wants to keep going up to sniff it. Do you let them or do you expect your horse to stand and not move while you talk with your friend?
> 
> I dont know what is but when Im with my trainer, she always makes me a bit more self cautious in how I handle Fly.
> 
> Remember how when I first got to the barn last Fall, she said I was too hard on Fly? She said that I was way too hard on her and I need to ease up on the amount of pressure that I put on her.
> 
> Today I was putting Fly back in the field and I ended up talking with my trainer for maybe 15mins so I wanted her to stand. Well the hay wagon was a few feet away and there was a couple horses eating from the wagon and Fly wanted to go sniff the wagon to see whats up.
> 
> I corrected her a few times and got her to back up but she kept trying. I really wanted (and felt I should have) laid down a really hard correction on the 3rd time but with my trainer there I was self cautious.
> 
> Would you have corrected Fly hard?
> 
> My trainer said that she was testing me.
> 
> I don't know what it is, but when Im around any trainer I always feel like Im under the microscope.


Bump. Anyone want to chime in on this? TIA.


----------



## Hoofpic

Okay remember that my camera on my head was adjusted too low. I thought it was the right height but it wasn't. It was the last time I used it on my helmet, but somehow it lost it's adjustment uhh. I was looking up the entire time. I am going to adjust it today so you can see more of the road and what's happening around me. 

When she stopped, it was when a pick up truck was driving in the crop field on the right side of us (about 30-40ft) and she was concerned. 

I hope I handled the ride well and I won't take too much flack.

We also walked by the mini donkeys at the end. This is the CLOSEST that she has been to them since that corridor that is in front of their paddock is a lot more narrow than their old paddock.

She did have a quick spook at the very start of the video going down the driveway.


----------



## egrogan

1. Fly is NOT moving like a sore horse. You're not even really walking on gravel the way you have those clear hard packet ruts to walk in. I think you convinced yourself before you left she was going to be sore. Don't worry about that!
1a. You have those nice wide grassy shoulders on both sides-why not just ride the shoulder, they you don't need to do anything when a car goes by.
2. If I was going to make Izzy stand doing nothing while I chit chatted for 15 minutes, I'd just give her her head and let her graze around me.

PS-that ride looks like a lot of fun! I would love to have a nice long, flat road like that to ride! Beautiful day too  I bet you'll do this ride a lot more often now-so much nicer than being stuck in the ring!


----------



## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> So sorry to hear about your BO, hope he gets better soon, and I'm sure he is thankful for everyone pulling extra weight to help around the barn.
> 
> ^^^This, I bet you this is what happened.
> 
> Oh yes, I meant to ask earlier, what camera do you use?


Thanks. I use a few different cameras. I'm a bit of a camera nerd simply because there is no such thing as the perfect camera. Camera's are all about compromises (because manufacturers have to leave out certain options or cut corners a bit to fit it in their cost), so by having multiple cameras it covers up the others weaknesses.

My main camera is a Panasonic FZ1000 (that's what I took all those photos of the wildies with) because it's by far my most versatile one. The only downside is the size and weight, so I have a Panasonic LX100 that I use as my everyday carry around camera, also for special occasions because it's 100 times smaller and whenever I take portraits, this is the ultimate portrait taking camera.

I record my lessons with my Sony action cam, it's a X1000V.

And my two work cameras are Panasonic GH4's with 12-35mm and 7-14mm lens. My boss doesn't care if I use it for my own personal use. I don't always have the work cameras on me, so when I do I try to make the most of it. Those scenery shots of the country side were shot with the work cameras. I couldn't achieve the same type of shots with my own cameras.

I was at Walmart late last night getting these shots printed, and I can't remember who mentioned it, but I'm so happy with the countryside shots that I'm considering going back and printing them out on much larger prints and frame them lol.


----------



## PoptartShop

Lovely videos too!!!! So beautiful!
As for Fly standing still, if I'm talking to someone, I would also let them have their head. They can graze while I'm talking. That's fine.

I'm so jealous of that ride! Such an open area. She's moving nicely.


----------



## greentree

I think you are correct on both counts....yes, she was starting ti gimp on the gravel.

And, if you do not want her eating off the hay wagon, then you are correct to not let her. If your trainer says slomething, remind her nicelybthat you are training the horse.

I like the way you are casrrying a crop, but it does not sound like you ever use it. Instead of saying walk several times, use the crop after the first time. Just a little, as a reminder.


----------



## carshon

Hoofpic - someone told me many years ago that when a horse blows like Fly did around .56 they are trying to relax and are thinking. She blows multiple times so I think that she was trying to relax and may have picked up a little on your own tension. I am not criticizing you at all. New trails are nervous moments for all of us riders. Even when you think you are not nervous.

I see a super willing horse and a rider who is pushing his boundaries. Good job to both of you!


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## egrogan

^^@greentree, not trying to be argumentative, but where in the video do you see her struggling?


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> 1. Fly is NOT moving like a sore horse. You're not even really walking on gravel the way you have those clear hard packet ruts to walk in. I think you convinced yourself before you left she was going to be sore. Don't worry about that!
> 1a. You have those nice wide grassy shoulders on both sides-why not just ride the shoulder, they you don't need to do anything when a car goes by.
> 2. If I was going to make Izzy stand doing nothing while I chit chatted for 15 minutes, I'd just give her her head and let her graze around me.
> 
> PS-that ride looks like a lot of fun! I would love to have a nice long, flat road like that to ride! Beautiful day too  I bet you'll do this ride a lot more often now-so much nicer than being stuck in the ring!


1 - No I didn't convince myself that she was going to be sore before leaving. I was surprised.

1a - the is very little to walk onto on the shoulders before it hits the ditch. I would rather walk her in the ditch than the shoulder. I was going to walk her in the ditch yesterday but I haven't checked for any sharp objects in the past week so I didn't. 

2 - See that's the thing, (even though Fly and I were standing on dirt and not grass when talking with my trainer), my trainer and the BO have the same belief (you can include the rest of the boarders as well, except myself and 3 boarder friends who don't agree with them). They all believe that a horse should never ever be allowed to graze whenever you have a halter on them because halter on means work time.

My 3 friends at the barn, I've seen them talking with the BO before while they let their horse hand graze, but I just don't have the guts to do it. I don't know why because yes Fly is my horse and I can do what I want with her. I still hand graze her, but just not if I'm talking with the BO or trainer or if they are near by. I will take her to places further out to hand graze her so people can't see. Either out by the main road, or by the trees or I throw her in the roundpen.


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Lovely videos too!!!! So beautiful!
> As for Fly standing still, if I'm talking to someone, I would also let them have their head. They can graze while I'm talking. That's fine.
> 
> I'm so jealous of that ride! Such an open area. She's moving nicely.


You see that's where IMO, it's a fine line all dependent on what the owner decides. For instance, I know my two friends will let their horses walk up to stuff and sniff and nose into it because they have no problem with it. So if they're standing there talking with the BO on his gator and their horse wants to walk up to the gator and sniff around, they let them. 

But if it was my trainer and her horse, she wouldn't let them. My trainer doesn't like any horse sticking their nose into something that they don't need to be in so she will stick up her hand or give them a quick poke with her hand on the horses nose.

In a way I want to do what's best but also I don't want to be too uptight about it. Afterall I like to let loose with Fly. I don't want her to feel like she's on a chain and rail.

PS - Fly loves to lick the gator (probably because it has hay on it).


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I'm positive this was the reason too. My mare will stumble when she loses her focus on me, and stops being aware of where her feet are. This usually results in a semi strong half halt, and a verbal "pay attention please" command from me. When my mare is having a sensitive feet day (she just plain doesn't like walking on gravel, but will) then she practically tip toes and knows where her feet are at all times. She's hyper aware and I can promise you does not stumble on it.
> 
> I'd go for it again. If she stumbles a bit, redirect her attention to you.
> 
> I'm glad you went out though! Good work!


Thanks. Even though we didn't go all the way to the box, I will and hoping today if the weather holds up. It's pretty mucky today.

Fly kept wanting to go to the left away from the truck and I was trying to keep her straight as best as I could. She kept looking to her right so I just tickled with my left reins to get her focus back on me. If she didn't listen, then I tickled again some more but a bit stronger this time. I no longer pull on those reins to turn her unless she refuses to listen and I needed to amp it up. But my trainer has taught me to just tickle my reins gently because that is what she wants from me and that's all Fly needs. She is so responsive on the bit that all it takes is a light tickle and she responds.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I think you are correct on both counts....yes, she was starting ti gimp on the gravel.
> 
> And, if you do not want her eating off the hay wagon, then you are correct to not let her. If your trainer says slomething, remind her nicelybthat you are training the horse.
> 
> I like the way you are casrrying a crop, but it does not sound like you ever use it. Instead of saying walk several times, use the crop after the first time. Just a little, as a reminder.


I think she was starting to limp on the gravel too. Perhaps her feet just aren't ready yet to be ridden on gravel? I was trying to keep her on the flatter stuff too.

Actually I did use my crop on her hind end a few times, you just didn't see it. It was at the 4min mark where she saw the truck pull up in the crop field to our right and she was concerned and wouldn't go so I taped her a few times on the left hind with the crop, I even gave her a few kicks.


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## tinyliny

Horses will often prefer to walk on where there is a LOT of gravel, as opposed to the spots that look softer to us, but have a few pieces of gravel, here and there, on a smooth surface. reason being, where there is lots of gravel, their weight is born on all the pieces, which sort of shift under their feet, like sand, so no one spot on the sole is under greater pressure than any other.

on the smoother spots, it's all great UNTIL they step on just one piece of gravel, which pushes up hard into the sole. that's when they will 'gimp'.

let them choose where to walk. the shoulders look good in the video, but I think it is an illusion. I think they slope down into ditches, no?


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> Hoofpic - someone told me many years ago that when a horse blows like Fly did around .56 they are trying to relax and are thinking. She blows multiple times so I think that she was trying to relax and may have picked up a little on your own tension. I am not criticizing you at all. New trails are nervous moments for all of us riders. Even when you think you are not nervous.
> 
> I see a super willing horse and a rider who is pushing his boundaries. Good job to both of you!


I know that when a horse yawns, it's not that they're tired but it's a stress reliever and the horse is telling you that they were stressed. 

I didn't know that them blowing their nose was them trying to relax, I thought it was just them clearing out their nose. Thanks now I know.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> Horses will often prefer to walk on where there is a LOT of gravel, as opposed to the spots that look softer to us, but have a few pieces of gravel, here and there, on a smooth surface. reason being, where there is lots of gravel, their weight is born on all the pieces, which sort of shift under their feet, like sand, so no one spot on the sole is under greater pressure than any other.
> 
> on the smoother spots, it's all great UNTIL they step on just one piece of gravel, which pushes up hard into the sole. that's when they will 'gimp'.
> 
> let them choose where to walk. the shoulders look good in the video, but I think it is an illusion. I think they slope down into ditches, no?


Oh really? Thanks for letting me know, I totally didn't know that. So maybe Fly was just telling me that she preferred to walk on the section of the road where there was lots of gravel?

You are right, I should let her choose where to walk and where she finds the most comfortable. 

I always make sure to clean out her hooves after each ride. Even when I walk her on gravel, I will still clean them out just in case rocks get lodged up in her hooves. Don't want her getting sore or stone bruising. 

Yes the shoulders of that road slope down into ditches. And it's a pretty sharp slope, some parts very inconsistent and this is why I'm not completely comfortable riding her down there yet because some parts there is so much grass that you can't see where the holes are.


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## Hoofpic

Quick question, I would love to go for another trail ride up at that place before they close on Oct 10 (only 10 days from now eek). Do you think it would be redundant since I was just there and I'm better off spending that money on attending a Horse show instead? I was wanting to do another ride, this time a different trail but also record it this time. I just think a trail ride (especially out there) would be great for keeping as a memory. I really regret not picking up my helmet a few days ago and recording my ride on Wednesday.


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## weeedlady

My first time to chime in on your journal, although I've been lurking.

I say take the trail ride.


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## Hoofpic

weedlady said:


> My first time to chime in on your journal, although I've been lurking.
> 
> I say take the trail ride.


Go for another one? Although it would be a different trail from last time, it should still be just as nice. 

I want to record it mostly for you guys. I mean it's not everyday where you get to ride in environments like that. I actually miss being out there. It's probably THE first time for me experiencing a true country setting. It's indescribable in words just how amazing it feels being in a setting where there is no one around, no noise, no cars, just nature and animals.


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## greentree

@egrogan , my tablet does not keep a counter.....but a bit after she spooked early, she caught a rock. I did not watch all the video, so I did not see the "truck" part, but before that, she was starting to have a little trouble(I think Hoofpic kept saying "come on, walk"). 
She was better when she drifted into the looser gravel, as Tinyliny said, so that looser gravel was easier on her.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> @egrogan , my tablet does not keep a counter.....but a bit after she spooked early, she caught a rock. I did not watch all the video, so I did not see the "truck" part, but before that, she was starting to have a little trouble(I think Hoofpic kept saying "come on, walk").
> She was better when she drifted into the looser gravel, as Tinyliny said, so that looser gravel was easier on her.


I'm so glad that you guys told me that looser gravel is actually easier on a horse's feet than flatter gravel. I would have never guessed that. I always thought less = better.

I didn't know if she was going into the looser gravel because that's what she wanted or because of the truck to the right. 

You couldn't see the truck because my camera was angled too low. 

My trainer has taught me that even when riding a horse at a walk, it should be a working walk, not a lazy walk and that they still need to have energy behind that walk. So she has got me to do a 1-2-3-4 count in my head as we walk so I can get a more mental image of the horse's pace. Just like when I trot, I do a 1-2, 1-2, 1-2. Over the past couple months, my trainer wanted me to work on controlling Fly's pace better and when I started to do the counting inside my head, it has helped a lot. 

So when Fly starts to slow down, get her pace back up before so that she doesn't halt when I don't want her to. I know that was one of my trainer's biggest peeve when I first started riding Fly. Fly would halt out of nowhere when unasked and I would let her. 

It has really helped because then I can tell when the horse is slowing down and I need to give more leg.


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## Prairie

The video was interesting---thanks for posting. You need to let Fly pick her own way when trail riding since horses seem to be pretty good about avoiding iffy footing so start practicing having faith in her to keep you both safe. Also, when you tell her whoa and she does, you need to give her more rein----as long as you keep the rein tight, she'll continue to be a little dancing because she's not sure what you want---she did what you asked, but you did not give her the reward of the release of pressure.


If you were standing with nothing to do while two strangers conversed with each other, wouldn't you become antsy? It's the same thing for the horse. Normally if I'm about to turn my horse loose, feed, or put her in her stall and get interrupted, I'll ask the person to give me a minute so I can care for my horse. Then I don't have the problem of dealing with a bored horse who's starting to become a PIA.


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## Hoofpic

I did it. We went down to the box but I had my friend come along (herd mates to Fly) and she just walked her mare. She was hoping to get on, on the way back but she coudn't. We mostly rode on the shoulder, but when we did ride on the gravel, I let her walk on the loose stuff.

I recorded it, it was a good ride for us. Im proud of Fly. You guys are more than welcome to watch, but it was at least 45mins lol. 

We had some issues with her standing when I told her to though. Maybe its because she sees her friend with us and wanted to get going but I need to work on this some more with her.


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## Hoofpic

Here you go guys, I think you will be happier with the camera adjusted. You don't get to see as much of the beautiful Fly, but you get to see more of the surroundings and what's happening.

My friend came along to walk her mare in hoping that she can get on her on the way back. But it didn't work because her mare won't stand for her. But she still did great, this was the furthest that she has gotten her mare off the property so she is pleased but wasn't happy about not getting on.

Like I told her too, I would have helped but there was nowhere to tie Fly.

Around the 40min mark I was having a bit of trouble getting Fly to stand. WHOA and STAND. Perhaps this is what I need to work on with her some more the next time I get on her. I really need to address this as it's a big concern to me. 

I have worked on it with her (over the past 5 or 6 rides in the past couple weeks), I would make her stand and not go anywhere until I tell her to walk on. I felt better because I did see improvement in the arena. I was able to even get her to stand a whole 5mins at a time without moving. There have also been times where I have been able to get on her without her walking off before I get my feet in my stirrups.


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## Hoofpic

weedlady said:


> My first time to chime in on your journal, although I've been lurking.
> 
> I say take the trail ride.


I have to say that going to clinics is great and all but driving out in the country and trail riding is a whole new experience.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Quick question, I would love to go for another trail ride up at that place before they close on Oct 10 (only 10 days from now eek). Do you think it would be redundant since I was just there and I'm better off spending that money on attending a Horse show instead? I was wanting to do another ride, this time a different trail but also record it this time. I just think a trail ride (especially out there) would be great for keeping as a memory. I really regret not picking up my helmet a few days ago and recording my ride on Wednesday.



You are the only one who can answer this question for yourself.


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## Hoofpic

I just went with a friend to go visit the BO in the hospital. My friend is always texting the BO and she asked if I wanted to go cause she knew I would love to, so I went. But I told her to check with the BO first to see if it would be okay for me to go too and he said yes.

He said he is feeling better and will have an MRI done on Monday and likely he will be back home later next week.

I hope my trainer wont be upset because she did put a sign up in the barn asking for no one to ca or text Hilton while he is in the hospital and if anyone needs anything, go to her. But my BO and I dont text each other anyways but my two friends always do with him.


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## Hoofpic

There's drama at the barn right now. It's obvious who is friends with who and who doesn't get along.

There's pretty much two sides, each side gets along the best with their group but not the other. I'm just doing my best to try to get along with everyone so I'm in the middle. I will admit, I don't have very fond things to say about one of the younger girls (the BO's helper) and my friends have made me aware of their dislike for this girl as well. They were talking today and I was nearby and overheard their conversation. We all pretty much have the same opinion about her. But their dislike for this girl is much higher than mine. I listened to what my friends had to say today but I didn't say much. Apparently one of my friends had something very rude said to her a couple days ago by this girl and it hurt my friends feelings so she was just expressing herself today.

You won't ever catch me going out of my way chatting it up with this young girl (I have had casual chit chats with her before on many occasions and they were fine), and I will still say hi and ask how she is when I see her. But for the most part, I'm doing it just to be professional about this all.

My two friends are a bit stressed out right now because they usually do lessons with the BO and because he won't be in the picture for lessons for some time, and they won't use the trainer because they don't like her, they are having to go outside of the barn for lessons and they're not too happy about that.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> There's drama at the barn right now. It's obvious who is friends with who and who doesn't get along.
> 
> There's pretty much two sides, each side gets along the best with their group but not the other. I'm just doing my best to try to get along with everyone so I'm in the middle. I will admit, I don't have very fond things to say about one of the younger girls (the BO's helper) and my friends have made me aware of their dislike for this girl as well. They were talking today and I was nearby and overheard their conversation. We all pretty much have the same opinion about her. But their dislike for this girl is much higher than mine. I listened to what my friends had to say today but I didn't say much. Apparently one of my friends had something very rude said to her a couple days ago by this girl and it hurt my friends feelings so she was just expressing herself today.
> 
> You won't ever catch me going out of my way chatting it up with this young girl (I have had casual chit chats with her before on many occasions and they were fine), and I will still say hi and ask how she is when I see her. But for the most part, I'm doing it just to be professional about this all.
> 
> My two friends are a bit stressed out right now because they usually do lessons with the BO and because he won't be in the picture for lessons for some time, and they won't use the trainer because they don't like her, they are having to go outside of the barn for lessons and they're not too happy about that.


Your two friends need to stop being so self centered. They are upset for missing some lessons? Your BO is missing his life!
Tell them to ditch the "What about me?" attitude.

The sign your trainer put up is probably to discourage people from calling the BO about barn issues. I don't think it means you can't call him or visit to show you care about him.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Your two friends need to stop being so self centered. They are upset for missing some lessons? Your BO is missing his life!
> Tell them to ditch the "What about me?" attitude.
> 
> The sign your trainer put up is probably to discourage people from calling the BO about barn issues. I don't think it means you can't call him or visit to show you care about him.


Well one of these two friends is one of my other friends, I guess you could say that I have 3 friends at the barn plus the other girl who rides but doesn't own a horse. But out of those 3 boarders, I'm closest to two of them.

I think they were just stressed out because they're obviously worried about the BO, but also they didn't know what to do about their lessons. So one of them is taking lessons at her trainers barn in the meantime and riding one of her horses. She's not very happy about it, but I told her that just because she isn't riding her own horse doesn't mean that she still won't learn and be able to pull stuff from each lesson to apply to her own horse.

She had this trainer out once a couple months ago hoping to convince the BO to let outside trainers come in (and she just about did convince him), but at the end of the day he wouldn't do it. I told my friend that there is not much we can do about it. I'm sure his experience with my previous outside trainer (who he did NOT like at all), and seeing how my previous outside trainer used the plastic bag on Fly in that one lesson didn't leave a good impression in his mind moving forward. So I take some of the blame. I brought in a "not so good" trainer that left a really bad taste in the BO's mouth and since then he has now shut down the idea of having any other outside trainers on his property.

But also, like I told my friend, a large part of it is the business aspect. The BO runs the business with my trainer and my trainer has been working with him for over 20 years. He doesn't want outside trainers to be on his property and then all of a sudden there is conflict and competition at the barn. And seeing how my friend and my trainer do not like each other, if my trainer saw that the BO allowed an outside trainer for my friend to come in, it likely will cause even more drama and possibly tension between the trainer and BO. So he is just looking out for himself as well.

Because like I said, when I had my outside trainer there, he made an exception just for me and even though I still had the privilege of having an outside trainer there, for every second that she was there, it always felt awkward especially with both the BO and my trainer being there at times.


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## Hoofpic

Well I just did a 4km (just over 4km actually and that' there and back) ride on Fly outside. I went with two of my friends but it turned out quickly to only be one as one of them couldn't get her mare out on and past the driveway and she got really mad at her horse so she headed back and called it quits. 

I recorded it as well. 

A couple times where she just dropped her head and grabbed some grass to eat. I corrected her hard after the 2nd time and she didn't try it again. My only concern was that she was eating with the bit in her mouth. she got a huge mouthful and I was just about to get off her and pull it out of her mouth. Is it bad that I left the bit in her mouth while she munched on that mouthful?

What' the reason again on why people say you shouldn't have your horse eat with a bit in their mouth? Was I wrong for not getting off and pulling the grass out of her mouth? 

I hope I didn't do any harm to her teeth.


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## edf

From what I was told about horses eating with bits- it was a concern with choking because what if the long grass got wrapped around the bit and the horse couldn't swallow it. If there is another reason, I don't know of it. But if it was the whole choke speil- I think you would have noticed if it happened to Fly.


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## Hoofpic

edf said:


> From what I was told about horses eating with bits- it was a concern with choking because what if the long grass got wrapped around the bit and the horse couldn't swallow it. If there is another reason, I don't know of it. But if it was the whole choke speil- I think you would have noticed if it happened to Fly.


Thanks. So do you think I should have gotten off and pull the grass from mouth? Either that or I quickly take her bit out. 

I always thought the bit could damage their teeth when chewing.


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## Hoofpic

My friend and I really wish that we could help my other friend but we can't. Ultimately, it comes down to her and she needs to be able to find a way to relax and let things go. She needs to be able to reset her mind because when I was taught to, I noticed a huge change in me. 

You just cant go to the barn upset with what happened the previous time right on the forefront of your mind. I was notorious for this and it made my journey with Fly stressful because of it.

I wont ever forget the BO telling me that you shouldn't always blame the horse, it is the rider. The horse is a mirror image of the rider. The horse is never at fault.

If she is upset and nervous all the time with her mare, then her mare will just negatively feed off it. She really needs to find a way to keep her emotions in check and this goes for any horse.

Is there any other advice I can give her? I minded my own business today, but its obvious what the problem is here.

Need to stay composed and screaming and getting upset at your horse wont achieve anything. Right?


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## greentree

My horses eat all the time with bits in their mouth. I have never had one choke from that.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. So do you think I should have gotten off and pull the grass from mouth? Either that or I quickly take her bit out.
> 
> I always thought the bit could damage their teeth when chewing.


The bit sits in the part of the mouth with no teeth, even when chewing.
I don't allow eating while wearing a bit mainly because I don't like cleaning green slobber from the bit afterwards. 
I do overlook some stealing while trail riding as long as the horse stays on course & doesn't stop. I just pretend I didn't see it, no big deal. Disclaimer: That is with my personal horses. I never let a horse in training eat because I don't want to set up that habit, send the horse home & get 'that' call about a broken rein or a grass diver.
If I was walking through a forest of M&M's I sure would to snatch a few or a lot.

Lost horses have been found after weeks still wearing the bridle though usually both reins are broken off. They surely ate before found.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> My horses eat all the time with bits in their mouth. I have never had one choke from that.


Thanks, but I will still feel more comfortable with Fly not eating with a bit in her mouth. I was watching her eat while riding and it took her a long time to get it all down.

I think the more important thing is that I hope I corrected her strong enough. I tried both times getting her head back up by giving back pressure on the reins but she just forced her head down so I whacked her on the hind with the crop and I had to tell her to quit with a grunt. I think it worked because she tried again for a 3rd time later in the ride and all I had to do was say "quit" and a quick pressure on the reins and she didn't put her head down.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, but I will still feel more comfortable with Fly not eating with a bit in her mouth. I was watching her eat while riding and it took her a long time to get it all down.


I have never ever known of a horse choke because it was eating with its bit in. It is simply a matter of personal choice, I prefer my horses don't eat with a bit in so I rarely allow it, not never, but rarely.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> The bit sits in the part of the mouth with no teeth, even when chewing.


I know, but you can still hear teeth on metal when they eat. I'm sure the bit bangs around the back of their teeth no?

I don't allow eating while wearing a bit mainly because I don't like cleaning green slobber from the bit afterwards. 



> I do overlook some stealing while trail riding as long as the horse stays on course & doesn't stop. I just pretend I didn't see it, no big deal. Disclaimer: That is with my personal horses. I never let a horse in training eat because I don't want to set up that habit, send the horse home & get 'that' call about a broken rein or a grass diver.
> If I was walking through a forest of M&M's I sure would to snatch a few or a lot.


True but I see it as no different than if Fly tries to get something to eat while I am taking her for a walk. Of course, with the crops along the road being as high as her shoulder (before they got cut this year), it would be a difficult task to keep any horse from getting bites when they food is right by their mouths lol.



> Lost horses have been found after weeks still wearing the bridle though usually both reins are broken off. They surely ate before found.


Oh, good point.


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## Hoofpic

So I took Fly on 3 rides on the road in the past 4 days (Thurs, Fri and today), and even though Thursdays was really short and it wasn't an official "trail", I'm curious to see if I will see a difference in her now. It was definitely a nice change for her from all the riding time in the arena, that's forsure. I'm glad that I got on her and took her to the road at least a couple times this week in repetition.

Today was the most challenging for her though, not because of the distance but because we wandered into new and further areas that she's not familiar with. Lots of looking around, a barn cat caused her to spook and just like on Friday, I gave her looser reins and let her choose where she wants to walk. Most of the time she was on the shoulder of the road or in the ditch, but when she wanted to walk on the road, she chose the loose gravel. But I think it's safe to say that she prefers walking on grass vs the road, though she didn't seem to mind the gravel and she wasn't limping or actively lifting her hooves.

It was a great experience for her today getting to ride with a 15 year old seasoned mare.

Tomorrow will be a well deserved break for Fly.


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## GMA100

I have a mare that will put her head down and snatch a bite while she is in a trot. I do prefer her not doing it, as she really should be paying attention to me and her surroundings, not the grass.


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## Hoofpic

One of my friends and I went pretty far and I asked her if she knew about the lake and also on the way to the lake, you pass a small herd of 8 or 9 horses, as well as a train track. I asked if she has had her mare up to the train tracks before. She said no, so we decided that we would try since we were on the same block and not very far. Well her mare became on high alert as soon as we got on that block and of course Fly fed off her. So as we kept walking, the two mares were reluctant to go any further. There was a bunch of trees to the right of the road up ahead that you couldn't see through it. And I know how horses like open areas where they can see and don't like areas where they can't see what's inside because predators could be hiding in there. Well I got Fly as close as I could, but then my friend and I both agreed that it would be best to turn back and don't push things too far because the two mares had made it obvious that they were not comfortable being there.

So my friend and I said that we will try it again another day. Even though I had the mindset to keep pushing Fly closer and closer to those trees and get her closer, and I didn't want to give up, I agreed with my friend that it wasn't worth the risk pushing things too far. I was dissapointed yes, but not much you can do right? Still a good ride.


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## Hoofpic

I just checked my video file and we rode for 1 hour and 19mins today, I'm very happy! I went from 20mins on Thurs, to 50mins on Friday to 89mins today. All thanks to you guys for encouraging me on to just go ahead with it. 

It was just 3 days ago where I was so stuck on not doing it (though really wanting to), but was so convinced that I needed to have my trainer come along with us. Well did I need my trainer? No. Fly was perfectly fine and I saved myself $45x3 (if I was to pay her in the form of lessons). Fly was noticably more comfortable and relaxed today than the previous two rides and a large part is because I was able to get more relaxed and confident on the road. 

Thank you all for pushing me on, otherwise I most likely wouldn't have rode Fly on the road even once this week. A huge weight is off my shoulders. My trainer knows that I've rode Fly on the road 3 times in the past 4 days because she was there every single day and I can tell she is happy for me. She knows that I've been wanting to do this for awhile now and is probably glad that I didn't have to rely on her for help.

It's just too bad the BO hasn't been here to see it. I know that he's been bugging me to just do it by myself and he's said all along that I will be fine. If I was to tell him, I think he would be proud of me.


----------



## jenkat86

You will likely do more damage to their teeth/mouth by correcting harshly with the bit, rather than allowing them to chew when they have the bit in their mouth.

My mare chews her snaffle bit non stop, with our without food in her mouth.


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## greentree

I have feeling that you are going to be doing endurances rides next year, hoofpic!!!


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## Stigstreets

I've also just started my journey, I have spent the last 3 months growing a connecting with my OTTB. I have been riding him twice a day for the past 3 days. so far so good, doesn't take off in open fields and responds great. although when trying to bring him out of cantering takes a while.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> Of course, with the crops along the road being as high as her shoulder (before they got cut this year), it would be a difficult task to keep any horse from getting bites when they food is right by their mouths lol.


It is NOT ok to let your horse eat a farmer's crops. If you don't have enough control over Fly's face to keep her from doing that, you will need to not ride withing grabbing distance of the crops. 

It is entirely possible to ride right beside crops and expect your horse to not browse:











All our horses know the word "bite," which is our cue for eating is allowed. Attempting to stop and snatch food otherwise results in a correction.

You have lots of time to work with Fly on this before the crops are back next year.


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## Prairie

The reason most riders don't want the horse to reach down and grab a bite of grass is that the horse is no longer focused on the rider and the job----he wants to look for another bite! Also it can be dangerous having a horse nose dive for a bite of grass. Never let a horse grab a bite of a farmer's crops, first because that's not YOUR crop, and second is that some crops can cause digestive upsets or actually be poisonous at various stages or due to weather conditions. For example, the sowed feed this year is really high in nitrates due to little moisture in our area so is not suitable to feed to horses and iffy for cattle.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> You will likely do more damage to their teeth/mouth by correcting harshly with the bit, rather than allowing them to chew when they have the bit in their mouth.
> 
> My mare chews her snaffle bit non stop, with our without food in her mouth.


Okay thanks. The good thing is that I didn't pull back hard, just firm and I didn't hold it very long.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Okay thanks. The good thing is that I didn't pull back hard, just firm and I didn't hold it very long.


Hoofpic- Different horses respond differently. So what I'm about to share doesn't necessarily mean that it would work for Fly...but my mare responds better to added leg pressure when she's "distracted" by tasty things. If she's going to drop her head to get grass, lean over to grab a leaf...she gets a little spur instead of me pulling on her face. It's nothing harsh, but a simple, "Hey mare, don't forget we're working here..."


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I have feeling that you are going to be doing endurances rides next year, hoofpic!!!


For me it's all about the quality of the trail. I would still love to haul Fly to a trail place next Spring or Summer next time for a day just to ride on some trails. Would I love for her to experience some true wilderness trails? Of course I would. Now obviously, it would take some time to get her to that level because if I was to haul Fly to the trail place that I went to last week, she wouldn't be okay with it right off the bat. Those horses are the trail places have gone through some serious conditioning and training on the trails where nothing phases them. 

There is a place that is about an hour away from the barn who has over 500 acres of trails to ride on and people haul their horses there all the time (very similar to the one I went to last week), except this one is much closer. 

If there is one thing that Fly could use more work and experience with, it's being in the trailer. She has only been in a trailer maybe 4 or 5 times since she was born and if it's anything like when my trainer hauled her from the previous barn to this one, she gets really nervous, sweaty and doesn't feel comfortable in them. And hauling her from the previous barn to the barn now was only a 30min ride, no traffic. 

If I haul Fly to some places next year, I would prefer if I could get my trainer to do it. One, I knew her well enough by now that I trust her, and she knows Fly well enough by now to know how she has been in a trailer previous times. But if I have to find an outside trailer hauler, then it will limit where I take her simply due to cost.

If I was still with my ex, she would do it for me since she has a pick up truck and trailer and would often haul her horses.


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## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> It is NOT ok to let your horse eat a farmer's crops. If you don't have enough control over Fly's face to keep her from doing that, you will need to not ride withing grabbing distance of the crops.
> 
> It is entirely possible to ride right beside crops and expect your horse to not browse:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All our horses know the word "bite," which is our cue for eating is allowed. Attempting to stop and snatch food otherwise results in a correction.
> 
> You have lots of time to work with Fly on this before the crops are back next year.


No Fly didn't get the farmer's crops, it was the counties (which the BO has permission to pick from and use to feed the horses if he chooses to and he does). There is some alfalfa and some Timothy's and once a year the county will come and cut and flatten it down with a tractor so then the BO will take his gator out to the road and feed the alfalfa to his older horses and the Tim's to everyone else for a snack. 

I've been keeping Fly well away from the taller crops for a couple reasons. One, the deeper it is, you harder it is to look for garbage, potholes, rocks etc. And the deeper it is, the more she will be tempted to eat and I don't want to be fighting with her. I wouldn't be setting us up for success.

There's a few of us at the barn disappointed that the county hasn't picked up the damaged crops from the field across the barn because we would love to ride through it. My trainer always does this with her horses when the crops are cut down. She will even trot through the large fields. There is a nice pathway that a lot of past boarders and the trainer have often ridden on and supposedly really nice and it takes you to the Pony club (which has an outdoor arena for you to use), but you need to cut through the crop field to get to it.

That's another option that I have. It's $20 a year to become a member at the Pony club and the Pony club is 3km from the barn. I could potentially take Fly down there in the future for shows or just to ride down there, tie her up, have her watch, experience being in a different arena and barn that's not home.


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## Hoofpic

I have made my decision and I am heading back up to the trail place today for another ride on a different trail, different horse as well (I didn't have a problem with the paint from last week but the more horses I can ride the better right?), and it will be me and 2 others and the same guide. This time I will be recording it for you guys to see.


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## Hoofpic

From yesterdays ride, the part where the two mare's didn't like the trees that they couldn't see through and were very hesitant getting closer. There is a herd of 8-10 horses on the other side that I was wanting to get up to.


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## EliRose

You can't be in the Pony Club after age 25.


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## greentree

Looks to me like tgere were no leaders in that situation....you were trying to let Fly walk where SHE wanted, and since she was doing what SHE wanted, she was wanting to go home. So she was finding a reason. (Omg, there is a sasquatch up ahead!!! (Human, I am taking GOOD care of you, and out of DANGER)


----------



## Prairie

"Now obviously, it would take some time to get her to that level because if I was to haul Fly to the trail place that I went to last week, she wouldn't be okay with it right off the bat. Those horses are the trail places have gone through some serious conditioning and training on the trails where nothing phases them. "


Stop assuming Fly won't be ok with new adventures----she's far more laid back than my hot head Arabian was or my TWH mare now is and they were ridden out on trails within a month of getting them. The Arabian was only a 3 yo and the TWH mare hadn't been ridden in over 10 years! All they needed was somebody who believed in them and gave them the confidence to try!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Looks to me like tgere were no leaders in that situation....you were trying to let Fly walk where SHE wanted, and since she was doing what SHE wanted, she was wanting to go home. So she was finding a reason. (Omg, there is a sasquatch up ahead!!! (Human, I am taking GOOD care of you, and out of DANGER)


I did try to guide her and keep her straight and told her to walk on (which she did), but eventually she wouldn't go any further. Did I want to get her up and past the trees? Of course I did. But also having one of my friends with me and her saying how we shouldn't push our luck, did sway me a bit to just head back home. 

If I was alone, it might have been a different situation.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> "Now obviously, it would take some time to get her to that level because if I was to haul Fly to the trail place that I went to last week, she wouldn't be okay with it right off the bat. Those horses are the trail places have gone through some serious conditioning and training on the trails where nothing phases them. "
> 
> 
> Stop assuming Fly won't be ok with new adventures----she's far more laid back than my hot head Arabian was or my TWH mare now is and they were ridden out on trails within a month of getting them. The Arabian was only a 3 yo and the TWH mare hadn't been ridden in over 10 years! All they needed was somebody who believed in them and gave them the confidence to try!


I'm not assuming but you will see what I mean when I head back to that place shortly here and record my trail ride. I have two batteries with me so I should be able to capture the entire 2 hour ride.


----------



## Prairie

Yu won't be riding Fly so that is not the same situation. You've already assumed that Fly won't be ok if you rode her---read what you wrote.


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## greentree

Do not assume that those horses have any training at all... They follow a LEADER, all day everyday, and in between, they nap. 

Have fun!!!

And her horse had stopped, refusing to go on, a typical horse evasion technique. Then, when we let the poor scared darlings go back to the barn, what did we teach them??


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Do not assume that those horses have any training at all... They follow a LEADER, all day everyday, and in between, they nap.
> 
> Have fun!!!
> 
> And her horse had stopped, refusing to go on, a typical horse evasion technique. Then, when we let the poor scared darlings go back to the barn, what did we teach them??


So are you saying my friend made the wrong call? She said that she didn't want to push it and will try it another day. I'm not making excuses but if I was there, just Fly and I, I perhaps would have pushed Fly a bit more.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> greentree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do not assume that those horses have any training at all... They follow a LEADER, all day everyday, and in between, they nap.
> 
> Have fun!!!
> 
> And her horse had stopped, refusing to go on, a typical horse evasion technique. Then, when we let the poor scared darlings go back to the barn, what did we teach them??
> 
> 
> 
> So are you saying my friend made the wrong call? She said that she didn't want to push it and will try it another day. I'm not making excuses but if I was there, just Fly and I, I perhaps would have pushed Fly a bit more.
Click to expand...

Why does it matter if your friend was there ?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Yu won't be riding Fly so that is not the same situation. You've already assumed that Fly won't be ok if you rode her---read what you wrote.


I would be curious how Fly would be on the trails. That would be one heck of a experience that's forsure. If I haul her to a trail camp place next year, it won't be where I went again to today. That drive is so nice but can exhausting especially late at night. 

I just drove back tonight and I left a bit later than I should have. Not fun driving for 2 hours in pitch black in deer territory. I find it a bit scary in a deserted road late at night in the pitch black. If you get hurt or break down, you are screwed and my phone gets no reception in that area too. And I am so scared of bears.

I was driving tonight leaving the place (in complete darkness, no road lights what so ever) and I see black shadows up ahead. I first thought bears (which I'm terrified of), so I slowly go up and it's a herd of cows! Like 15 cows right in the middle of the road. I was a bit nervous, I didn't know what to do. I could have gone through but I didn't want a cow crashing into my car. So I sat in my car and honked and the **** cows wouldn't move. I was going to get out and chase them away but I was worried if they might attack me so I got back in the car and just very slowly went up, crawling closer to them and eventually they moved out and made space for me to pass. Dumb cows. It took me like 15mins just to get through. That was a bit nerve racking, and obviously because it was pitch black outside in an deserted area with not a single car in sight.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Why does it matter if your friend was there ?


It doesn't but just saying.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> So are you saying my friend made the wrong call? She said that she didn't want to push it and will try it another day. I'm not making excuses but if I was there, just Fly and I, I perhaps would have pushed Fly a bit more.


Your friend did as much as she was comfortable with at that time. 
As all the riders are a bit inexperienced on inexperienced horses I think it was best that you did all stick together. While you could probably get Fly to go alone it might have been a different story if one of the group headed back home.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Your friend did as much as she was comfortable with at that time.
> As all the riders are a bit inexperienced on inexperienced horses I think it was best that you did all stick together. While you could probably get Fly to go alone it might have been a different story if one of the group headed back home.


Okay thanks, that's what I thought too, that my friend wasn't comfortable going any further. Her mare though is fairly seasoned even though that was the furthest that she has ridden her away from the barn and the first time she rode her on the road since a year ago.

I don't think you blame me for turning back and going back with my friend. I know the two mares fed off each other and even though I wasn't nervous, I didn't like about a barn cat being in that area, that could potentially jump out at any time.

With some work and patience, I have no doubt that I could get Fly up and past those trees if I was to do it again. It's no different than walking her over a tarp or over the bridge. Just one step at a time right? Patience and keep looking to where you want her to go. Although, I don't think you would need to reward and praise her after each step in this situation. She would probably receive over 500 of them haha. Am I right?

Do you think it would have made it any easier to get off of her and walk her up and past the trees? IMO I don't think it would have been an entirely bad idea to be honest with you because this reminds me of the mini donkey situation. Fly was so not okay with them at first and I started by walking her up and past them. Then I rode her past them and now that the mini donkey's are living in a paddock on the walk path to the arena, I have made it a habit to lead Fly past and directly in front of the mini donkey's. She is still not 100% okay with them but she is dramatically better.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> the part where the two mare's didn't like the trees that they couldn't see through and were very hesitant getting closer.


That is the biggest pile of BS I have ever heard. If my horses wouldn't go past trees they couldn't see through, they wouldn't even get off our property! A horse might instinctively not like all kinds of things, but the rider is supposed to be the brains of the operation.

Riding my green horse by himself, in nothing but trees:






Trees, or cats, or cars are not the issue. The issue is who is making the decisions. There are some times it is not bad for the horse to make them, but IMO this was not one of them.




Hoofpic said:


> I did try to guide her and keep her straight and told her to walk on (which she did), but eventually she wouldn't go any further. Did I want to get her up and past the trees? Of course I did. But also having one of my friends with me and her saying how we shouldn't push our luck, did sway me a bit to just head back home.
> 
> If I was alone, it might have been a different situation.


Seems to me you would be better off having no company, if the company is actually going to make Fly worse. This was not the first instance this has been the case. Company is all well and good, but not when its actually negatively influencing Fly's training. If that other horse was seasoned, then the _rider_ is the one with the issue and the horse knows it and is taking advantage. Is that what you want to teach Fly?




Hoofpic said:


> Do you think it would have made it any easier to get off of her and walk her up and past the trees?


Yes. If you couldn't get her to listen to your cues to go forward with riding, then the next best thing would have been to get off and lead her forward. Some people feel dismounting is "losing," but I feel if the choice is giving up (turning around and never getting to the issue) or getting down and working past the problem, then getting down is the better choice every time.


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## greentree

Yes, you should have both dismounted and walked past, remounted, and gone on UNTIL the decision to turn back was YOURS, not the horses'. Did you notice that going back to the barn , Fly had no problem deciding where she wanted to walk?


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> So are you saying my friend made the wrong call? .


 If they aren't, I am.


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## greentree

Hoofpic, may I ask you a question?

Do the people at your barn believe that you have all if this knowledge of horses naturally, or do they know about HF? 

I ask because this is a public place, and they have access to it, and how eould it affect your relationship with them, if they read here? Just wondering...


----------



## phantomhorse13

greentree said:


> Do the people at your barn believe that you have all if this knowledge of horses naturally, or do they know about HF?
> 
> I ask because this is a public place, and they have access to it, and how eould it affect your relationship with them, if they read here? Just wondering...


I don't think they would have much issue with Hoofpic.. but I suspect some of _us _wouldn't be their favorite people! :wink:


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## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> That is the biggest pile of BS I have ever heard. If my horses wouldn't go past trees they couldn't see through, they wouldn't even get off our property! A horse might instinctively not like all kinds of things, but the rider is supposed to be the brains of the operation.


So are you saying that my friend was wrong when she said that the horses weren't going any further because of the trees and not being able to see past them?



> Riding my green horse by himself, in nothing but trees:
> http://youtu.be/g1k6LVv1iL8
> 
> Trees, or cats, or cars are not the issue. The issue is who is making the decisions. There are some times it is not bad for the horse to make them, but IMO this was not one of them.


I now really regret listening to my friend and going back. Do you think I just lost some respect from Fly after this? Did I make her think "he's not a leader".




> Seems to me you would be better off having no company, if the company is actually going to make Fly worse. This was not the first instance this has been the case. Company is all well and good, but not when its actually negatively influencing Fly's training. If that other horse was seasoned, then the _rider_ is the one with the issue and the horse knows it and is taking advantage. Is that what you want to teach Fly?


No that is not what I want to teach Fly. I do agree with you that I would most likely benefit without having company all the time. It's just hard to decline when one of my friends ask me all the time to do stuff with her. I understand why she wants this and it's to give her mare comfort (seeing how Fly and her mare are herd mates), but there are certain things that I am kinda past at this point because Fly and I have done it and moved on (like the noodles, bridge etc).

For instance on Friday, my friend asked what I was going to do and I said "ride to the mailbox", but she said that her mare wouldn't be okay with it and she would be nervous doing it". She obviously had other plans in mind but she changed her mind and decided to come along because that's what I was doing. Now, she obviously didn't feel comfortable doing it, but I didn't force her to come along.

I realized this over the past month actually when I would be doing stuff together with Fly and one of my friends and her mare. I do find it a bit limiting what I can do together with one of my friends because there are things that I can do with Fly that she is not okay with her mare (walking/riding past the mini donkeys, standing at a mounting block, noodles to name a few). So if we ride out, we need to go her path (which is away from the donkeys) because her mare is not okay with the mini donkeys and she can't lead her mare past them. Which for me, I want to go past the donkeys because Fly has much less of an issue with them and the mini donkeys have been a working progress for Fly and I.

I think the biggest downside is that one of my friends negative energy totally feeds off every other horse that comes along on the ride. So of course Fly feeds it because her herd mate is super tense and nervous from her rider. Even though I am calm as can be and not rattled or nervous at all. Remember awhile back when I mentioned that my ultimate goal was to have Fly reflect off of my and only me for energy?

One thing's forsure, if I'm riding Fly in the arena (working on what my trainer assigned me to work on), pacing, getting her to bend, yielding, my balance, etc. I am FAR better off doing this alone because I prefer no outside distractions. There are some things that I want to still work on with Fly (and yes one of them is still liberty), but there is no way that I have the ability to do this and have outside distractions at the same time. I don't have that ability to multi-task to that level just yet.

PS - do you remember the last time something like this happened with having the company of my friends? Just curious what it was.



> Yes. If you couldn't get her to listen to your cues to go forward with riding, then the next best thing would have been to get off and lead her forward. Some people feel dismounting is "losing," but I feel if the choice is giving up (turning around and never getting to the issue) or getting down and working past the problem, then getting down is the better choice every time.


I'm not going to mention anything to this about my trainer. Why? Because she would be sorely disappointed in me for not doing this. When I did the bridge with Fly, my trainer asked what I did and how I did it. Same thing for the noodles, and tarp. Obviously, my trainer wants to make sure that I am completing what I ask of Fly and that I don't just give up. So I just can't tell her this. I'm already very disappointed in myself. I have let Fly down. She probably no longer sees me as a leader after this. :-x


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Yes, you should have both dismounted and walked past, remounted, and gone on UNTIL the decision to turn back was YOURS, not the horses'. Did you notice that going back to the barn , Fly had no problem deciding where she wanted to walk?


No I didn't notice that. On the way to the trees, I did try to steer her forward (which I did after she was hesitant quite a few times). But is this a situation where I should have taken full control and told her exactly where to walk and step? So if I wanted her to walk in the shoulder, then steer her there and give enough leg and rein so that she doesn't come off it?). 

I feel so demoralized right now. I have let Fly down and she most likely no longer sees me as a leader.

I feel that I need to do the right thing and ride her back to those trees today when I head out. Get her as close as I can to them, then get off and walk her up and past them, then get back on and ride back home (passing the trees again for the second time).


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> So are you saying that my friend was wrong when she said that the horses weren't going any further because of the trees and not being able to see past them?
> 
> 
> 
> I now really regret listening to my friend and going back. Do you think I just lost some respect from Fly after this? Did I make her think "he's not a leader".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not what I want to teach Fly. I do agree with you that I would most likely benefit without having company all the time. It's just hard to decline when one of my friends ask me all the time to do stuff with her. I understand why she wants this and it's to give her mare comfort (seeing how Fly and her mare are herd mates), but there are certain things that I am kinda past at this point because Fly and I have done it and moved on (like the noodles, bridge etc).
> 
> For instance on Friday, my friend asked what I was going to do and I said "ride to the mailbox", but she said that her mare wouldn't be okay with it and she would be nervous doing it". She obviously had other plans in mind but she changed her mind and decided to come along because that's what I was doing. Now, she obviously didn't feel comfortable doing it, but I didn't force her to come along.
> 
> I realized this over the past month actually when I would be doing stuff together with Fly and one of my friends and her mare. I do find it a bit limiting what I can do together with one of my friends because there are things that I can do with Fly that she is not okay with her mare (walking/riding past the mini donkeys, standing at a mounting block, noodles to name a few). So if we ride out, we need to go her path (which is away from the donkeys) because her mare is not okay with the mini donkeys and she can't lead her mare past them. Which for me, I want to go past the donkeys because Fly has much less of an issue with them and the mini donkeys have been a working progress for Fly and I.
> 
> I think the biggest downside is that one of my friends negative energy totally feeds off every other horse that comes along on the ride. So of course Fly feeds it because her herd mate is super tense and nervous from her rider. Even though I am calm as can be and not rattled or nervous at all. Remember awhile back when I mentioned that my ultimate goal was to have Fly reflect off of my and only me for energy?
> 
> One thing's forsure, if I'm riding Fly in the arena (working on what my trainer assigned me to work on), pacing, getting her to bend, yielding, my balance, etc. I am FAR better off doing this alone because I prefer no outside distractions. There are some things that I want to still work on with Fly (and yes one of them is still liberty), but there is no way that I have the ability to do this and have outside distractions at the same time. I don't have that ability to multi-task to that level just yet.
> 
> PS - do you remember the last time something like this happened with having the company of my friends? Just curious what it was.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not going to mention anything to this about my trainer. Why? Because she would be sorely disappointed in me for not doing this. When I did the bridge with Fly, my trainer asked what I did and how I did it. Same thing for the noodles, and tarp. Obviously, my trainer wants to make sure that I am completing what I ask of Fly and that I don't just give up. So I just can't tell her this. I'm already very disappointed in myself. I have let Fly down. She probably no longer sees me as a leader after this. :-x


Calm down. Fly didn't know your plans. You said go home so she did.
The only mistake you made was your riding partner but how could you have known she was a chicken?
I think you did the right thing staying with her on the way back. Separating could have caused either horse to get upset about being suddenly alone, something neither of you are prepared for right now. Well, maybe you'd be OK.
I doubt your trainer will be upset. I wouldn't be. You gave it a try, stuck with the weaker rider & kept everyone self. 
Maybe the next time you go put a halter with lead rope on Fly & lead her past the trees if need be.
As for your friend, tell her next time it's all or nothing or you go alone.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, may I ask you a question?
> 
> Do the people at your barn believe that you have all if this knowledge of horses naturally, or do they know about HF?
> 
> I ask because this is a public place, and they have access to it, and how eould it affect your relationship with them, if they read here? Just wondering...


Everyone knows that a big part of my learning comes outside the barn, I just told them "my friends that I talk to everyday". And they know about my books and listening to audio books etc.

They also know how active I am in attending clinics and horse shows. 

My trainer and BO both know how ambitious I am in progressing my learning and they know that I actively going about my ways to achieve it, even if i have to step outside the box a bit and do things that I don't enjoy.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic, surely by now you have realised that horse relationships, and horse human relationships are dynamic and ever changing...

I hate to tell you, Fly is not standing out in her field thinking. "well he is no longer my leader" in fact she is not thinking of you at all.

When you're out, and she gets worried, she is looking to you to be the leader, and that IS NOT by doing reassurance, patting her and "good girling her" when she is scared of something. When she gets nervous that is when you have to be the strong leader that you keep talking about, not harsh, but matter of fact, just let her know that you're not worried.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Calm down. Fly didn't know your plans. You said go home so she did.
> The only mistake you made was your riding partner but how could you have known she was a chicken?


So I didn't do any damage to Fly at all?

I wouldn't say my friend was a chicken, but not as brave as I am in certain situations would be a better way putting it? Out of my 3 friends at the barn (or 4 including the non boarder), she is the most advanced out of all of them in terms of where she is with her horses, what she does with them, etc.

One of my other friends came too for the first 1/3 of the walk but she headed back early. She was visibly upset about not being to ride her mare on the road and it wouldn't have done her or her mare any good by continuing on, so she made the right choice.



> I think you did the right thing staying with her on the way back. Separating could have caused either horse to get upset about being suddenly alone, something neither of you are prepared for right now. Well, maybe you'd be OK.


I was actually contemplating. I was going to stay in that area and tell my friend to head back if she would like, but yes like you mentioned I didn't want either horse to get upset about being separated. 



> I doubt your trainer will be upset. I wouldn't be. You gave it a try, stuck with the weaker rider & kept everyone self.
> Maybe the next time you go put a halter with lead rope on Fly & lead her past the trees if need be.
> As for your friend, tell her next time it's all or nothing or you go alone.


I am tempted to tackle this again today, on my own, THEN I will tell my trainer if she asks. I hate riding Fly down the road again for what would be the 4th time in 6 days (so much for variety in what we do lol I'm kidding). but this is obviously bothering me. 

My friend who was with me in that video, she does want to try this again, but again, if she is going to turn back, then I may be better going alone. Remember when I mentioned numerous times that my friends and I have completely different views on horsemanship? So sometimes our heads clash. And like I've mentioned, one of them doesn't believe in physical body language so it's really limiting in helping them out when they are with you.

For instance my other friend tried to come with us on the ride but she couldn't get her mare past the driveway, she will always head back home and won't move. My other friend and I told her to use that crop on her and give her a big kick but she wouldn't. So she was getting really upset and she hopped off her after 5mins of trying. There was not much else I could have done. You tell her to use the crop and she won't use it, all because it's a physical reprimand and she doesn't believe in smacking or whacking a horse. 

If I wanted to compare my view on horsemanship to anyone else at the barn, it would be with my trainer and BO.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic, surely by now you have realised that horse relationships, and horse human relationships are dynamic and ever changing...
> 
> I hate to tell you, Fly is not standing out in her field thinking. "well he is no longer my leader" in fact she is not thinking of you at all.


Thanks for the reminder, I need to keep remembering this. This is ONE area that hasn't quite sunk into my brain just yet. It will, but it's obviously taking a bit longer than I would like. 

For me, my biggest concern was (because horses live in the moment), was Fly doubting me as a leader, the second I turned her back home. Afterall, I did spend a good minute or two trying to get her closer and closer to the trees. I did but we didn't get up and past it, which is what I wanted. 



> When you're out, and she gets worried, she is looking to you to be the leader, and that IS NOT by doing reassurance, patting her and "good girling her" when she is scared of something. When she gets nervous that is when you have to be the strong leader that you keep talking about, not harsh, but matter of fact, just let her know that you're not worried.


Yes and let her feed off my energy. Just go about it as if the trees aren't even there and there is no issue. Fly has been down this road many times and I'm not the least bit worried. But if there is one thing that I have learned over the past couple months, it's that it doesn't matter how calm and relaxed you are as a rider, horses will still feed off each other when together and if the rider on the other horse is nervous or worked up, then their horse will only be just as bad and then you have a chain reaction.


----------



## Tazzie

I'm agreeing with others that maybe you should rethink who you have go with you, or perhaps just go alone. If Fly was fine by herself walking there earlier, but suddenly wasn't with another horse, then you need a buddy that will push past it with you or not bother with them.

I do hope there won't be issues that stem from this. I would make sure you head out again though, and you be the LEADER.

For reference, this was Izzie nearly one year ago today. She was 5. She was carting my husband around who has less riding experience than you do, but more natural ability to lead. You'll see the three places we took her. She led the entire way through all three of these things. I was on the chestnut mare who wanted nothing more than to leave. She's roughly 10 years older than Izzie, and Nick can get her most places as well by showing leadership.


























Same age, similar timid company (my mount didn't like the corn or the water; worked her past it because I wasn't giving in), didn't care because rider was confident and gave direction. Didn't hesitate even a split second before hopping into the creek.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I'm agreeing with others that maybe you should rethink who you have go with you, or perhaps just go alone. If Fly was fine by herself walking there earlier, but suddenly wasn't with another horse, then you need a buddy that will push past it with you or not bother with them.
> 
> I do hope there won't be issues that stem from this. I would make sure you head out again though, and you be the LEADER.
> 
> For reference, this was Izzie nearly one year ago today. She was 5. She was carting my husband around who has less riding experience than you do, but more natural ability to lead. You'll see the three places we took her. She led the entire way through all three of these things. I was on the chestnut mare who wanted nothing more than to leave. She's roughly 10 years older than Izzie, and Nick can get her most places as well by showing leadership.
> 
> Same age, similar timid company (my mount didn't like the corn or the water; worked her past it because I wasn't giving in), didn't care because rider was confident and gave direction. Didn't hesitate even a split second before hopping into the creek.


Thanks for the pics. So when Izzy turned to back up, did you just give her more leg? Did you go about that in one smooth motion or work at it step or chunk at a time?

Cause when I ride Fly up to the trees again, should I ask for bits at a time, then give her release and just let her soak in the surroundings? Or go about it all at once?

I hope there won't be issues as well too with my friends, but it's obvious that I need to sacrifice company if that other company is going to hurt Fly's and I training. I just won't let that happen for both of our sakes, but mostly Fly's sake. I know forsure that my one friend will always want to come along, but you are right, I need to set some guidelines here and tell her "all or nothing". 

If anything, I think it would be amazing to go trail riding with my trainer. Not because I necessarily need her but because her and I think on the same page in a lot of ways so we can relate in ways that I can't with my friends. Afterall, she has earned my respect over the past 6 months and has become my mentor. I don't see my trainer in the same light than I did 6 or 7 months ago. She is very good at what she does and I highly respect her for that. I just hope that she sees me as a leader, I know obviously not near her level but as long as I'm getting there, that's all that matters.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic, you are confusing "strong" with what should be "confidence". If you are confident, the horse will settle down and do the job asked without worrying about going by mini donkeys, trees, crossing water, walking down a driveway, or whatever else you "think" will upset Fly. The horse is a reflection of the rider, thus since you lack confidence which is evident by your fears and questioning if you handle the situation correctly, Fly does not view as a leader who will keep her safe no matter what happens. You have to overcome you inhibitions and stop reprimanding her for reacting to your fears before Fly will respect you as a fair leader.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Cause when I ride Fly up to the trees again, should I ask for bits at a time, then give her release and just let her soak in the surroundings? Or go about it all at once?


If you read the rest of the threads on here, this is one of the reasons that we say "get a trainer" Because with both Fly and yourself being green as grass, it is very very hard for people on a computer to give you sound advice, a lot of people will give you their opinion, but you don't have the experience to say who is giving good and bad advice.

I ride with a trainer, I have a lot of experience, and I still get that sort of call wrong at times........best thing is for you just to ignore what ever she is looking at, and just ride on by....your whole attitude should be "there is nothing here to worry us" By stopping and looking at stuff, and letting her 'soak it in' you are only telling her that there is something to worry about....

Just my opinion


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks for the pics. So when Izzy turned to back up, did you just give her more leg? Did you go about that in one smooth motion or work at it step or chunk at a time?
> 
> Cause when I ride Fly up to the trees again, should I ask for bits at a time, then give her release and just let her soak in the surroundings? Or go about it all at once?
> 
> I hope there won't be issues as well too with my friends, but it's obvious that I need to sacrifice company if that other company is going to hurt Fly's and I training. I just won't let that happen for both of our sakes, but mostly Fly's sake. I know forsure that my one friend will always want to come along, but you are right, I need to set some guidelines here and tell her "all or nothing".
> 
> If anything, I think it would be amazing to go trail riding with my trainer. Not because I necessarily need her but because her and I think on the same page in a lot of ways so we can relate in ways that I can't with my friends. Afterall, she has earned my respect over the past 6 months and has become my mentor. I don't see my trainer in the same light than I did 6 or 7 months ago. She is very good at what she does and I highly respect her for that. I just hope that she sees me as a leader, I know obviously not near her level but as long as I'm getting there, that's all that matters.


That was my point. Izzie never turned and tried to exit stage left. Nick rode her forward with confidence. He didn't anticipate she would stop at the woods. He didn't anticipate she would reel back from the water. He truly pointed her where ever he wanted, and off they went. They blaze trails together through thick underbrush. The bank heading down to the creek gave my mount pause, but only slowed Izzie down enough to navigate it. Mine went down too, she's just been allowed to make her own rules all her life.

I say, you ride confidently toward it. The whole thing fell apart when YOU noticed the barn cat and started worrying about it. You can NEVER anticipate something coming to get you. We've spooked up turkeys, deer, squirrels, etc. We've had farm dogs join us on the trails. If we stopped to worry about an animal crossing the road, we would never get a move on it. Your downfall was stopping to let the cat go by, and consistently talking about that. Well, that on top of your lack of direction for Fly.

I'm not saying this to rip you down or tear you apart. I'm saying this so you see where you went wrong, so you can open your eyes and move forward with it. Stop anticipating the trees will be an issue. Stop making excuses that she can't see through the trees and therefore doesn't want to go. Just ride her. You go on and on about how you don't anticipate or get anxious, but both those things were apparent in that video.

My husband has more bravado than sense. Most of the time. Which is how he can ride confidently on Izzie. She's never gotten him off or hurt him. He's never been thrown by a horse. He is an entirely blank slate. But he gets on and says "Let's go here!" and Izzie says "Yes! Why don't we go here??" He takes the reins and directs her.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, you are confusing "strong" with what should be "confidence". If you are confident, the horse will settle down and do the job asked without worrying about going by mini donkeys, trees, crossing water, walking down a driveway, or whatever else you "think" will upset Fly. The horse is a reflection of the rider, thus since you lack confidence which is evident by your fears and questioning if you handle the situation correctly, Fly does not view as a leader who will keep her safe no matter what happens. You have to overcome you inhibitions and stop reprimanding her for reacting to your fears before Fly will respect you as a fair leader.


What makes you think I'm not confident? I feel confident, though with new stuff I may be a bit nervous at first but I settle down quickly and easily. The reason for it is because it's new to me and I'm building my knowledge so I don't have much to go by. Here is where perhaps more riding with my trainer in situations like this would really help both Fly and I. Maybe I will see if I can make our next lesson to be on the road to the trees.

But what am I correcting her for that I shouldn't be?


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## Hoofpic

My ride from yesterday. It ended up being 3 hours long because the two guys who came along were hired by the stables to do some drone work for them for next summer so we stopped more often than you usually would on a trail ride. I stayed on my horse the entire time because if I ever want to tackle an all day ride next year, I will need to get used to sitting on a saddle for longer.

I ran out of space on my memory and this is why I will pick up a second card so that this doesn't happen again. I was not happy. So you don't get to see the entire ride, and it cut off just as we got to the river and crossed through it.

I started recording about 2mins into the ride. It was a noticably more challenging and steeper trail than last weeks and there was a lot of cliffs and high edges that made me a bit nervous. Once we got to the top of the mountain, you will see a spectacular view but there was no way that I was getting any closer to it. 

And yes before going I requested to ride a different horse. Not because I had a problem with the previous gelding but so I can experience another horse. 

I think the biggest adjustment I've had to make when trail riding is that the "one horse length" rule doesn't really apply to these horses. I asked the owner and he said it doesn't because these horses are so good with each other in tight spaces on the trail.

When leaving the place last night, there was a herd of 8 or 9 wild horses treking in the field so I stopped and took some photos and videos. There was what looked to be two foals in the herd. I was able to get within 100ft of them without them running off.


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## tinyliny

I haven't got the time to watch such a long video, though I am sure it's lovely. just out of curiosity, how long did it take for you to upload that to youtube?


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## Golden Horse

tinyliny said:


> I haven't got the time to watch such a long video, though I am sure it's lovely.



I wonder if anyone actually does? I don't for sure, I love looking at pics, or watching 3 or 4 minutes of video, but not much longer. I would hate for you to buy another card when no one watches the whole thing. If it is just for your benefit, then fine.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> If you read the rest of the threads on here, this is one of the reasons that we say "get a trainer" Because with both Fly and yourself being green as grass, it is very very hard for people on a computer to give you sound advice, a lot of people will give you their opinion, but you don't have the experience to say who is giving good and bad advice.
> 
> I ride with a trainer, I have a lot of experience, and I still get that sort of call wrong at times........best thing is for you just to ignore what ever she is looking at, and just ride on by....your whole attitude should be "there is nothing here to worry us" By stopping and looking at stuff, and letting her 'soak it in' you are only telling her that there is something to worry about....
> 
> Just my opinion


I have a trainer, she's the one at the barn and I no longer have permission to have an outside one come in. Do you think I could benefit greatly from doing some lessons with my trainer outside of the barn property? Like where she would ride one of her own horses That way she will be able to tell me exactly what to do and how to handle situations right then and there.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I have a trainer, she's the one at the barn and I no longer have permission to have an outside one come in. Do you think I could benefit greatly from doing some lessons with my trainer outside of the barn property? Like where she would ride one of her own horses That way she will be able to tell me exactly what to do and how to handle situations right then and there.


I know you have a trainer, so asking for advice on here CAN be confusing, because I still think she should be your main support.

As to if it would be beneficial to have her ride out with you, well yes and no. If she has a nice quiet go anywhere horse then I can see how Fly would get confidence from that. What you really need to is learn the skills you need in the arena, then just use those skills outside. Think about it for a moment, every time you go out you have the chance of meeting something that Fly has not seen before, you simply can't look at every new thing as something that you have to desensitize her to. What she needs to learn is that YOU are in charge, and that she should go wherever you want her to just because you say that it is OK.

You need to learn to look past the 'dangerous' thing, and to the 'safe' area beyond,


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> So I didn't do any damage to Fly at all?


"Damage" would be injuring her or starving her or something along those lines. 

It was a learning opportunity. You didn't ruin your horse. Don't be so hard on yourself. If we've learned anything at all by now, it's that Fly is a pretty forgiving horse.

To the point @GoldenHorse made earlier...Fly isn't thinking in terms of, "Oh I wonder if Hoofpic will be a good leader today...." It's probably more along the lines of, "Oh look! Grass to eat." "Oh look, something fluttering over there." "Oh look"...and then she stumbles because she's not paying attention..."Oh look, we're going back to the barn. I know I don't have to work there and can eat...lets hurry up!" 

So to lead her you need to anticipate that she will drop her head to eat grass...so make her want to move forward more. Keep her collected and her mind on you so she doesn't trip over herself. Don't let her trot unless you ask for it...that's what you should focus on. Have her go where YOU want her to go.


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## natisha

Some of those trails were gnarly. Nice job on your first jump.


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## CinnaDex

I have a tricky horse that needs a confident rider. He is very opinionated and will not hesitate to take the reins so to speak and put himself in charge of a situation. At somepoints that is fine, I will happily point him over rough ground and let him figure out his footing, will let him navigate a stream, or what have you. However, when we are encountering new things, like dogs, new trails, cows, tractors, ect, I really need to step up and tell him that these new things that we are experiencing are really nothing to be concerned about at all. If he senses hesitation from me he will put himself in charge and start finding his own answers to the "questions" that are presenting themselves. With some horses that is fine, but given that Blues favourite answer to those questions involves spooking, t.hrowing a few huge bucks, and then turning his head for home, it is definitely a challenge.

I think that Fly is a very forgiving and willing mare after reading your threads, and I have been lurking for awhile. I enjoy reading about your breakthroughs and Your journey together. I don't think that she will behave like my horse does, but I just wanted to give you a real life example situation where acting confident and in charge and saying "we can" will get you results vs. hesitation, doubting the horse, and asking "can we?" Might get you injured. If you say to Fly "this is okay and it will keep being okay" then the majority of the time it will be.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> That was my point. Izzie never turned and tried to exit stage left. Nick rode her forward with confidence. He didn't anticipate she would stop at the woods. He didn't anticipate she would reel back from the water. He truly pointed her where ever he wanted, and off they went. They blaze trails together through thick underbrush. The bank heading down to the creek gave my mount pause, but only slowed Izzie down enough to navigate it. Mine went down too, she's just been allowed to make her own rules all her life.


And that's how I'm going to do it with Fly. 



> I say, you ride confidently toward it. The whole thing fell apart when YOU noticed the barn cat and started worrying about it. You can NEVER anticipate something coming to get you. We've spooked up turkeys, deer, squirrels, etc. We've had farm dogs join us on the trails. If we stopped to worry about an animal crossing the road, we would never get a move on it. Your downfall was stopping to let the cat go by, and consistently talking about that. Well, that on top of your lack of direction for Fly.
> 
> I'm not saying this to rip you down or tear you apart. I'm saying this so you see where you went wrong, so you can open your eyes and move forward with it. Stop anticipating the trees will be an issue. Stop making excuses that she can't see through the trees and therefore doesn't want to go. Just ride her. You go on and on about how you don't anticipate or get anxious, but both those things were apparent in that video.
> 
> My husband has more bravado than sense. Most of the time. Which is how he can ride confidently on Izzie. She's never gotten him off or hurt him. He's never been thrown by a horse. He is an entirely blank slate. But he gets on and says "Let's go here!" and Izzie says "Yes! Why don't we go here??" He takes the reins and directs her.


Don't worry, I'm not taking it the wrong way. It was my fault for making the cat an issue and I'm accountable for it. If I was alone though, it might have been a different story.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> I haven't got the time to watch such a long video, though I am sure it's lovely. just out of curiosity, how long did it take for you to upload that to youtube?


I render the video first in an Adobe program (which took 1.5hours to render), then I uploaded it overnight, which took 7 hours.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> tinyliny said:
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't got the time to watch such a long video, though I am sure it's lovely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if anyone actually does? I don't for sure, I love looking at pics, or watching 3 or 4 minutes of video, but not much longer. I would hate for you to buy another card when no one watches the whole thing. If it is just for your benefit, then fine.
Click to expand...

I don't expect anyone to watch the entire ride, but I like to have it all for my memory. It's beneficial when I go to horse shows as well or down the road when I take Fly to places, I want to capture it all.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a trainer, she's the one at the barn and I no longer have permission to have an outside one come in. Do you think I could benefit greatly from doing some lessons with my trainer outside of the barn property? Like where she would ride one of her own horses That way she will be able to tell me exactly what to do and how to handle situations right then and there.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you have a trainer, so asking for advice on here CAN be confusing, because I still think she should be your main support.
> 
> As to if it would be beneficial to have her ride out with you, well yes and no. If she has a nice quiet go anywhere horse then I can see how Fly would get confidence from that. What you really need to is learn the skills you need in the arena, then just use those skills outside. Think about it for a moment, every time you go out you have the chance of meeting something that Fly has not seen before, you simply can't look at every new thing as something that you have to desensitize her to. What she needs to learn is that YOU are in charge, and that she should go wherever you want her to just because you say that it is OK.
> 
> You need to learn to look past the 'dangerous' thing, and to the 'safe' area beyond,
Click to expand...

You are right, my trainer should be my main support and I should be going to her more often about stuff like this. So I am the one to blame here. 

I do know that I have recently talked to her about other stuff that I would like to work on (in a lesson) with Fly and need her assistance. The main one was getting Fly used to the hose and water being sprayed on her. The ONE thing that I miss from the old barn is the wash rack. I've always wanted to be able to hose down Fly and give her a bath whenever I would like, but unfortunately I left the previous barn soon after so I never got to work on it with Fly. We don't have a wash rack at the barn now, but we can take a hose to wash horses outside or in the arena (they use the arena hose for the sand when it gets dry). So my trainer said that we can work on this at the end of one lesson. It should be fun.

I have gotten Fly 100% completely fine with the fly spray over the past few months, she no longer fidgets. She stands completely still and is no longer bothered by the sound of the spray nozzle. 

You are right I need to apply what I learn from my trainer in the arena to when I'm outside riding Fly. Afterall, it is no different.


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## Tazzie

I'm glad you didn't take my comment the wrong way. I know I can be a bit... abrupt when I'm trying to get a point across. And most of the time I prefer blunt than sugar coated when it's to me.

It may have been a different story. Unfortunately we won't know. The next time you go it will be a different day with different things to work through. I'd definitely saddle back up soon and head back out. If you need to dismount and remount, so be it. But I rarely get off unless it's going to put me in a super dangerous situation (that is ME; what YOU feel is dangerous would be a good reason to dismount and lead Fly through.) But you enjoy trail riding, least that's how it appears. Don't go looking for something (barn cats, birds) and give Fly a bit more direction. Picking a spot where she is comfortable, sure. Letting her wander like you were without direction? That would drive me looney. Be the leader. That's the purpose of your journal! You can do it!


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> Do you think I could benefit greatly from doing some lessons with my trainer outside of the barn property? Like where she would ride one of her own horses That way she will be able to tell me exactly what to do and how to handle situations right then and there.


I think this would be a very good idea. So much of what "should" happen in a situation depends so much on what is actually happening that second and on the horse and person involved. One moment might be the time to reinforce forward with legs while another might be the moment to be still and let Fly figure it out. There is no way for us to be able to help you with that online. Have you talked to your trainer about incorporating a walk down the driveway (or past the donkeys or some other place around the barn) into your lesson?

I actually thought of you today as I took Phin out. I had left some stuff out to dry and he was quite alarmed by the sudden appearance of aliens in the yard. I didn't have time to get into it when we left (I was meeting a friend), so avoided that area knowing I would tackle it on the way back.

Having an outside person taking the video would have given you a better picture of what I was doing as a rider, in terms of when I was encouraging versus staying quiet to let him figure it out. But I think even this view of it gives you the idea:






Left to his own devices, he wouldn't have gone within 100 yards of any of that, but turning and fleeing was not acceptable to me. Because he really _is_ nervous (as evidenced by his whistling), I kept everything calm and supportive (whereas if it had been one of the older geldings, he would have gotten a swift kick, as he wouldn't have actually been afraid). But calm and supportive does NOT mean giving up before he worked past things, or rewarding him until he did what I asked. Your trainer being there to see what is happening can help you determine if Fly is taking advantage of you or actually concerned, and what to do to correct it. Your feel of those situations is something you will learn with experience.


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## greentree

That is some beautiful country where you went to ride!

I can never watch the entire video, but I got the scenery!!!

If you have not already figured this out....the thing with horses is that every day is a NEW day. One day, nothing spooks them. The next day, everything spooks them. It is just the way it is, and cannot be "fixed". Consequently, there is no 1+1= x when it comes to horses. 
If you try to be that way, it will add greatly to your insecurity.
One day, it takes a little bitty cue, and the next day, a real shove does not work, but that does mean you need to question your manhood. Questioning does not help anyway, because it does not matter what we say...the only thing thast mayters is what you and Fly feel together.


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## Golden Horse

phantomhorse13 said:


> Your trainer being there to see what is happening can help you determine if Fly is taking advantage of you or actually concerned, and what to do to correct it. Your feel of those situations is something you will learn with experience.


This many times over, great post


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I'm glad you didn't take my comment the wrong way. I know I can be a bit... abrupt when I'm trying to get a point across. And most of the time I prefer blunt than sugar coated when it's to me.
> 
> It may have been a different story. Unfortunately we won't know. The next time you go it will be a different day with different things to work through. I'd definitely saddle back up soon and head back out. If you need to dismount and remount, so be it. But I rarely get off unless it's going to put me in a super dangerous situation (that is ME; what YOU feel is dangerous would be a good reason to dismount and lead Fly through.) But you enjoy trail riding, least that's how it appears. Don't go looking for something (barn cats, birds) and give Fly a bit more direction. Picking a spot where she is comfortable, sure. Letting her wander like you were without direction? That would drive me looney. Be the leader. That's the purpose of your journal! You can do it!


Thanks. Do you think it would be a bad or okay idea to leave it off for a couple more days before I ride her back out to those trees? 

I rarely get offended by comments, I would rather someone be blunt with me than indirect.


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## Tazzie

Dude, it's your choice. I'd have already saddled back up and headed that way again. Then again, I wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with.

I REALLY agree with phantomhorse though. Have your trainer there to help you through it. There really are specific times you need to put some pressure on, and times you need to not. Fly truly doesn't seem to be a horse that would do a fast 180 and get the heck out of dodge, but she is a horse with her own mind. I really think you'd benefit from having the trainer right there with you. Like when you go back to the trees maybe.

Ha, alright!


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> "Damage" would be injuring her or starving her or something along those lines.
> 
> It was a learning opportunity. You didn't ruin your horse. Don't be so hard on yourself. If we've learned anything at all by now, it's that Fly is a pretty forgiving horse.
> 
> To the point @GoldenHorse made earlier...Fly isn't thinking in terms of, "Oh I wonder if Hoofpic will be a good leader today...." It's probably more along the lines of, "Oh look! Grass to eat." "Oh look, something fluttering over there." "Oh look"...and then she stumbles because she's not paying attention..."Oh look, we're going back to the barn. I know I don't have to work there and can eat...lets hurry up!"
> 
> So to lead her you need to anticipate that she will drop her head to eat grass...so make her want to move forward more. Keep her collected and her mind on you so she doesn't trip over herself. Don't let her trot unless you ask for it...that's what you should focus on. Have her go where YOU want her to go.


Thanks, I will be sure not to be too hard on myself. Like I said, I just don't want to hurt Fly's training so that's why if I need to cut back on the amount of time that I ride or work with Fly with my barn friends, then so be it. Nothing against my barn friends, but I think we might be clashing heads in terms of what exactly we want to be doing with our horses and how we are planning on going about it. And I think for me and my learning, I need to spend time with someone who is on the same page as me in terms of their views on horsemanship, riding etc. The only person unfortunately is my trainer.


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## greentree

I do not think it is detrimental to ride with these people, but perhaps you need to lay it out before you go...say, hey, i am going down past the trees, want to go? I need to work Fly past the scarey stuff. Now, I am going all the way down, even if she tries to stop.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, I will be sure not to be too hard on myself. Like I said, I just don't want to hurt Fly's training so that's why if I need to cut back on the amount of time that I ride or work with Fly with my barn friends, then so be it. Nothing against my barn friends, but I think we might be clashing heads in terms of what exactly we want to be doing with our horses and how we are planning on going about it. And I think for me and my learning, I need to spend time with someone who is on the same page as me in terms of their views on horsemanship, riding etc. The only person unfortunately is my trainer.



Actually it does help to observe how others are handling their horses since it's another learning opportunity and can add to your bag of tricks, even if it isn't something you need with Fly right now. Every horse is an individual and there is no one technique that will work with every horse.


For example our TWH mare needs a calm, slower approach to her training with new cues and responses broken down into small step with lots of rewards for trying. By contrast our ADHD TWH gelding would be bored and I'd lose his focus if I went slow with him. He need an upbeat, fast moving technique with lots of changes and if he responds to a new cue close to what I want, we move on to something else since to drill him or ask for perfection initially would have him off in la-la land. Different horses mean different techniques. Also the way I approach training a particular horse is often different than my hubby or the 2 trainers we help, but that doesn't make anyone wrong--there's more than one road to Rome, so as long as the objective is achieved, it doesn't matter how you got there.


Also, you need to consider where the horse is in his training. I don't expect a greenie to have the confidence and abilities to figure out scary obstacles that I do with a seasoned trail horse and We've been known to turn around or find an easier route if a trail proves to be too difficult for our horses' abilities at the point in time. This why most trail groups have an unwritten rule that the trail chosen will be one that the greenies can complete successfully.


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## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> I think this would be a very good idea. So much of what "should" happen in a situation depends so much on what is actually happening that second and on the horse and person involved. One moment might be the time to reinforce forward with legs while another might be the moment to be still and let Fly figure it out. There is no way for us to be able to help you with that online. Have you talked to your trainer about incorporating a walk down the driveway (or past the donkeys or some other place around the barn) into your lesson?


So sounds to me like me riding with my friends last week was more detrimental than anything for me. I still made progress and got a lot of positives out of it, but like mentioned by others already on here, I most likely would have been better alone on those rides. Riding together is suppose to be fun for all of us and the ride on Sunday was a real eye opener for me. I think I may have hit a breaking point where I just couldn't handle anymore of her negative energy.

One friend I can relate to more because she does more with her two mares, but the other has issues that I don't currently have with Fly. For example, I would love to have her come ride with us, but if she's going to be nervous all the time and get upset at her mare, I don't need that negative energy around Fly and I. This REALLY bothers me because it effects everyone on the ride. 

Like when I went with her on Friday's ride. Yes I know she really wanted to get on her mare and ride back and she was really upset about not being able to get on. And I would have helped her if I had a place to tie Fly (but even then it's more trouble than it's worth because I would have to then unbridle Fly first before tying her, then re-bridle her), but there is only so much I can do if her mare won't stand for her. I don't mind helping her when she rides by holding her mare, but it doesn't solve the problem, it only masks it. I didn't tell her this, but she needs to fix the root of the problem and if your horse won't stand for you in the arena, then it's going to really limit what you can do outside of the barn. You need to teach your horse to stand for you period, no matter where you are.

And like I said, my biggest conflict moving forward with my friends isn't going to be them or I, it's going to be our very different views on horsemanship. As much as I try to deny it, it's going to be a problem down the road (if it hasn't already shown). 

This is why my trainer refuses to do lessons with one of my friend until she changes, because even though she said some pretty blunt and very forward stuff to my friend in the last lesson that they had 4 months ago (and it hurt her feelings), my trainer was right. My trainer doesn't dislike my friend or doesn't want to work with her, but until my friend changes her mindset and state of mind, the trainer can't do much. My BO said the same thing. My friend needs to gather inner strength, confidence and start using her body language physically not just verbally. Until then, things with her mare aren't going to change. 



> I actually thought of you today as I took Phin out. I had left some stuff out to dry and he was quite alarmed by the sudden appearance of aliens in the yard. I didn't have time to get into it when we left (I was meeting a friend), so avoided that area knowing I would tackle it on the way back.
> 
> Having an outside person taking the video would have given you a better picture of what I was doing as a rider, in terms of when I was encouraging versus staying quiet to let him figure it out. But I think even this view of it gives you the idea:
> 
> http://youtu.be/flA2MoCklcI
> 
> Left to his own devices, he wouldn't have gone within 100 yards of any of that, but turning and fleeing was not acceptable to me. Because he really _is_ nervous (as evidenced by his whistling), I kept everything calm and supportive (whereas if it had been one of the older geldings, he would have gotten a swift kick, as he wouldn't have actually been afraid). But calm and supportive does NOT mean giving up before he worked past things, or rewarding him until he did what I asked. Your trainer being there to see what is happening can help you determine if Fly is taking advantage of you or actually concerned, and what to do to correct it. Your feel of those situations is something you will learn with experience.


Thanks for the video, that really helps a lot. 

You are right, I'm going to ask my trainer today if we can have our next lesson for on the road. She might be surprised, but hopefully she will understand why I want to do this. I think it would benefit me greatly. We just need to do it once for now, then at least the next time around when I am on my own, I know what to do in the moment.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Dude, it's your choice. I'd have already saddled back up and headed that way again. Then again, I wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with.
> 
> I REALLY agree with phantomhorse though. Have your trainer there to help you through it. There really are specific times you need to put some pressure on, and times you need to not. Fly truly doesn't seem to be a horse that would do a fast 180 and get the heck out of dodge, but she is a horse with her own mind. I really think you'd benefit from having the trainer right there with you. Like when you go back to the trees maybe.
> 
> Ha, alright!


I was tempted to ride Fly back up to those trees in the next day or two and see if I can do it on my own this time without any help. But perhaps, this is a situation where I'm best off waiting to book a lesson with my trainer and go with her. 

Why was I tempted to try it again myself? Because I saw this situation no different than walking and riding Fly past the mini donkeys. The very first time Fly wouldn't go but I put pressure on her and made her come with me in the direction that I wanted and she listened. I'm pretty sure I can apply that exact logic to those trees.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> So sounds to me like me riding with my friends last week was more detrimental than anything for me. I still made progress and got a lot of positives out of it, but like mentioned by others already on here, I most likely would have been better alone on those rides. Riding together is suppose to be fun for all of us and the ride on Sunday was a real eye opener for me. I think I may have hit a breaking point where I just couldn't handle anymore of her negative energy.
> 
> One friend I can relate to more because she does more with her two mares, but the other has issues that I don't currently have with Fly. For example, I would love to have her come ride with us, but if she's going to be nervous all the time and get upset at her mare, I don't need that negative energy around Fly and I. This REALLY bothers me because it effects everyone on the ride.
> 
> Like when I went with her on Friday's ride. Yes I know she really wanted to get on her mare and ride back and she was really upset about not being able to get on. And I would have helped her if I had a place to tie Fly (but even then it's more trouble than it's worth because I would have to then unbridle Fly first before tying her, then re-bridle her), but there is only so much I can do if her mare won't stand for her. I don't mind helping her when she rides by holding her mare, but it doesn't solve the problem, it only masks it. I didn't tell her this, but she needs to fix the root of the problem and if your horse won't stand for you in the arena, then it's going to really limit what you can do outside of the barn. You need to teach your horse to stand for you period, no matter where you are.
> 
> And like I said, my biggest conflict moving forward with my friends isn't going to be them or I, it's going to be our very different views on horsemanship. As much as I try to deny it, it's going to be a problem down the road (if it hasn't already shown).
> 
> This is why my trainer refuses to do lessons with one of my friend until she changes, because even though she said some pretty blunt and very forward stuff to my friend in the last lesson that they had 4 months ago (and it hurt her feelings), my trainer was right. My trainer doesn't dislike my friend or doesn't want to work with her, but until my friend changes her mindset and state of mind, the trainer can't do much. My BO said the same thing. My friend needs to gather inner strength, confidence and start using her body language physically not just verbally. Until then, things with her mare aren't going to change.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the video, that really helps a lot.
> 
> You are right, I'm going to ask my trainer today if we can have our next lesson for on the road. She might be surprised, but hopefully she will understand why I want to do this. I think it would benefit me greatly. We just need to do it once for now, then at least the next time around when I am on my own, I know what to do in the moment.


Do your lesson inside, and then make the road part of the reward. If your lesson is an hour, do about half inside!

You are not a sponge. The negative energy that you absorb is ONLY what you allow. You have control over it.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> That is some beautiful country where you went to ride!
> 
> I can never watch the entire video, but I got the scenery!!!
> 
> If you have not already figured this out....the thing with horses is that every day is a NEW day. One day, nothing spooks them. The next day, everything spooks them. It is just the way it is, and cannot be "fixed". Consequently, there is no 1+1= x when it comes to horses.
> If you try to be that way, it will add greatly to your insecurity.
> One day, it takes a little bitty cue, and the next day, a real shove does not work, but that does mean you need to question your manhood. Questioning does not help anyway, because it does not matter what we say...the only thing thast mayters is what you and Fly feel together.


If anyone wants to just see the top of the hill, I think it's about the 30min or 35min mark. It's worth seeing IMO, it was so nice up there. I would have love to capture more of it but I'm so scared of heights I wouldn't get any closer than 100ft from the edge. I wanted to take pictures but I just couldn't mustard the courage to get closer.

Yes that is true, everyday is a new day. No day will be the same and this is why I've stopped anticipating things and go into things with a new slate on my mind. 

The day that I was over at a trainers house for dinner (back in March of this year) and she told me that I need to reset my mind each time I correct Fly, it changed me for good. Now, it's natural and I don't even have to think about doing it, I just do it. So when I correct Fly, I let it go as if it never happened.


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## jenkat86

greentree said:


> Do your lesson inside, and then make the road part of the reward. If your lesson is an hour, do about half inside!


I do this a lot and I find that my mare really enjoys it.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I do not think it is detrimental to ride with these people, but perhaps you need to lay it out before you go...say, hey, i am going down past the trees, want to go? I need to work Fly past the scarey stuff. Now, I am going all the way down, even if she tries to stop.


I don't think it's detrimental either riding with my friends, but I can tell there are limitations, plus our difference in opinions clash at times. So if my friend tells us that we can't lead our mares past the mini donkeys because her mare isn't okay with it and she can't get her past them, I need to refuse and do what I want. Sometimes, I can be too accommodating to others and I need to put my foot down if need to be. Because Fly has gotten used to the mini donkeys over the past couple months, so I'm not going to start avoiding them again just to satisfy her mare's wants. To me that is backtracking and I will not do that. So I will take Fly past the mini donkeys and meet her on the other side.

Though I still told her that avoiding the mini donkeys isn't going to make things any better for her mare and her. She has taught her mare to learn how to avoid them altogether. But I can only do so much, I can't convince her. She is dead set convinced that her mare has the last word and will not settle for the mini donkeys around her and that she will never be okay with mini donkeys. Which I completely disagree with, you can get any horse okay with just about anything in this world, you just need to work on it and believe in them.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Do your lesson inside, and then make the road part of the reward. If your lesson is an hour, do about half inside!
> 
> You are not a sponge. The negative energy that you absorb is ONLY what you allow. You have control over it.


Okay thanks. I have done that, but it was only once (when my trainer first let me experience outside riding). I'm not sure if Fly sees going outside as a reward though. Most likely undoing that cinch and taking that saddle off is what she wants lol.

I try my best in not letting negative energy around me get to me, (and I think my calm composure really plays a big part here), but when it's strong, it becomes a distraction no matter how much you try to deny it. 

Even though I don't have any general friends locally, and I'm grateful for making friends at the barn, I need to be careful and not get too attached to them. After all this journey is between Fly and I and not my friends and I.


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## greentree

Well, to be honest, I had a horse who could NOT abide Armando, the miniature donkey. Armando adored him, because my horse was a big, loudly colored Paint. He would begin his bray, and my horse would come unglued, even if we were in the arena, and Armando was on the other side of the farm. 
This went on for years. Just like you say you are afraid of heights, some things cannot be changed......


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Even though I don't have any general friends locally, and I'm grateful for making friends at the barn, I need to be careful and not get too attached to them. After all this journey is between Fly and I and not my friends and I.


Welll, only you can answer that one, for some of us riding, being around horses, part of that is the social aspect, I really enjoy having company at the barn, and just doing fun stuff to enjoy it, not for the learning, not for the journey, just for the fun. Both Fly and you I think would relax a lot more if you were less intense in this "gotta be a strong leader" ALL the time. There are times when you DO need to be strong and show her the way, there are times when you can let her just kind of go her own way, a lot of the time you should be in partnership.


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## sarahfromsc

You can learn a lot watching others with their horses, both the positive and negative. Everything can be a learning experience if you allow it to be.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Well, to be honest, I had a horse who could NOT abide Armando, the miniature donkey. Armando adored him, because my horse was a big, loudly colored Paint. He would begin his bray, and my horse would come unglued, even if we were in the arena, and Armando was on the other side of the farm.
> This went on for years. Just like you say you are afraid of heights, some things cannot be changed......


True that some things can't be changed, but that person needs to work on it to at least try to change it. A lot of the problems that my friend has with her mare, there is no doubt in my mind she can fix but she doesn't believe that they can. She is so convinced that she is unfix able in a lot of ways. But like my trainer and BO both said, we can only do so much, it's up to my friend to change. My trainer said it best in that one lesson, my friends mare is not a puppy dog and that is how she is treating her mare. Many of us at the barn don't like to see anyone get so stressed out just going to the barn and seeing their horse but like my trainer said, the change needs to start from within herself. And until that happens, nothing will change.

I went through her phase. I had a good amount of time where I was stressed out just handling and being around Fly. But thanks to you guys and thanks to me finally waking up and realizing that I have a horse here and not an infant, not a dog, that is when I changed my entire outlook on horses and how to go about my ways.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Welll, only you can answer that one, for some of us riding, being around horses, part of that is the social aspect, I really enjoy having company at the barn, and just doing fun stuff to enjoy it, not for the learning, not for the journey, just for the fun. Both Fly and you I think would relax a lot more if you were less intense in this "gotta be a strong leader" ALL the time. There are times when you DO need to be strong and show her the way, there are times when you can let her just kind of go her own way, a lot of the time you should be in partnership.


No you are absolutely right, I think there has to be a balance, not too much of one or the other. Going on rides with my friends was a nice change because it took some of my focus off of Fly and let me socialize more and be more casual going about things with Fly (if you can describe it that way). Like you said, sometimes you just need to let her go her own way. Don't always watch her ears, her body language, just take in the moment being together.


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> You can learn a lot watching others with their horses, both the positive and negative. Everything can be a learning experience if you allow it to be.


Yes and I learn a lot by watching others. Fly has taught me to become a much more observant person. Not just at the barn but in my everyday life. Her crunching my baby toes 3 times made me smarten up, get my act together and become a much more alert person.


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## Hoofpic

Uhh we are expecting 1cm of snow tomorrow night and 1-3cm of wet snow on Sat and Sunday. The horses don't even have their winter coats on yet. Should I plan on blanketing Fly? If the horses still have their summer coats on, won't the wet snow make them cold?

I was so not expecting Winter to come this year but it looks like I will plan on putting on my snow tires in the next couple weeks.


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## Golden Horse

I would throw a blanket on her if she is dry, leave it on until this stuff has blow through, then take it off again, the horses don't look ready for bad weather yet. Does she have a shelter she can stand in though? If she has a good shelter and is fed hay in there, then wouldn't be so worried.


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## Tazzie

Golden Horse said:


> Welll, only you can answer that one, for some of us riding, being around horses, part of that is the social aspect, I really enjoy having company at the barn, and just doing fun stuff to enjoy it, not for the learning, not for the journey, just for the fun. Both Fly and you I think would relax a lot more if you were less intense in this "gotta be a strong leader" ALL the time. There are times when you DO need to be strong and show her the way, there are times when you can let her just kind of go her own way, a lot of the time you should be in partnership.


I like everything Golden Horse has touched on here. I WISH we could be at a boarding barn since I have almost no one to chat with when we go out to ride. We ride inside their pasture (there is truly no where else to ride), and it's a hike to get there. Sometimes our friend/barn owner will come out and chat, but it's not quite the same. I miss having a bunch of people that would be like "let's do a trail ride today." Now, if I want to trail ride, it's a big production to find a sitter and ask to borrow a horse. You're very fortunate to be at a barn where you can make friends. 



Hoofpic said:


> Okay thanks. I have done that, but it was only once (when my trainer first let me experience outside riding). I'm not sure if Fly sees going outside as a reward though. Most likely undoing that cinch and taking that saddle off is what she wants lol.
> 
> I try my best in not letting negative energy around me get to me, (and I think my calm composure really plays a big part here), but when it's strong, it becomes a distraction no matter how much you try to deny it.
> 
> Even though I don't have any general friends locally, and I'm grateful for making friends at the barn, I need to be careful and not get too attached to them. After all this journey is between Fly and I and not my friends and I.


I bet she appreciates it more than you'd realize. The ring can be a pretty intense place. Outside, and on the trails, is a break. You give a bit of direction, but your expectations aren't as high. Let me explain what I mean by expectations, using Izzie. When Izzie is working, she is expected to be on contact, using her hind end, lifting her back, and being ready to do some kind of exercise when I prepare and ask. When I trail ride, I ride her mostly on the buckle, with really only asking her not to lay on my legs (carry herself.) Trail riding then becomes a mental break, and a reward for a job well done. Growing up, my boss/trainer would remove the polo wraps, and send us out on the trail after a lesson. The horses LOVED it, and we felt like we were getting a treat too. We got to keep riding and go exploring. Your work with Fly right now is minimal because she is quite green. But that won't be how it always is.

And I totally couldn't do that "not get too attached" part of a friendship. I have a fairly small circle of friends I chat with (including those I haven't even met in person) who I love deeply as a friend. You CAN be friends with people and do things totally different than how your friends do it. My best friend worked in the Saddlebred industry and is now training horses. Some of the norm in that industry (not harmful; I guarantee you she would never do anything to harm a horse) is not something that is normal in ours. Every last one of my close friends have varying ways of riding, training and handling situations. We all just respect one another, and ask questions if we don't understand why they do things. I always start out with "this may be a dumb question, but..." and my best friend always tells me what it was, and that my questions are rarely done. Don't judge, ask. And learn to let go a little bit. Having close friends is a wonderful thing. I'm 1.5 hrs from some of my closest friends, and up to 2.5 hrs from the others, that I know in person. Don't create a wall to shut people out just because they do something different. Maybe tread carefully on trail riding with them until you're more secure trail riding, but I wouldn't give up the idea entirely.



sarahfromsc said:


> You can learn a lot watching others with their horses, both the positive and negative. Everything can be a learning experience if you allow it to be.


This is a really good piece of advice, so I'm quoting it so you'll read it again.


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## greentree

"Walk long enough, and we all trade places"- proverb

" the buffalo fed on the buffalo grass that was fertilized by their own droppings. The grass had deep roots, and was resistant to drought."-David Peat

"Try as we will, we cannot escape the making of mistakes. But fortunately, the ever humbling cycle of growing strong roots comes from eating whatever grows from our own sh!t, from digesting and processing our own humanity. Like the buffalo, we are nourished by what sprouts from our own broken trail. What we trample and leave behind fertilizes what will feed us. No one is exempt!!
" Things come apart and join sometimes faster than we can cope. But, we evolve in spite of our own limitations, though we may break and make mistakes, we are always mysteriously more than what is broken. Indeed, we somehow grow from the soil of our mistakes. And often in the process, the things we refuse to let go of are somehow forced from our grip."


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## jenkat86

Tazzie said:


> I like everything Golden Horse has touched on here. I WISH we could be at a boarding barn since I have almost no one to chat with when we go out to ride. We ride inside their pasture (there is truly no where else to ride), and it's a hike to get there. Sometimes our friend/barn owner will come out and chat, but it's not quite the same. I miss having a bunch of people that would be like "let's do a trail ride today." Now, if I want to trail ride, it's a big production to find a sitter and ask to borrow a horse. You're very fortunate to be at a barn where you can make friends.


I agree with you, Goldenhorse and Tazzie. I have the ability to have my horse at home, but I chose to go back to boarding mainly for the social aspect. I found that when I didn't have anyone to ride with, or even talk to, my motivation to ride went away along with a TON of my confidence. Funny how that works.

Hoofpic, I think you're doing fine.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I would throw a blanket on her if she is dry, leave it on until this stuff has blow through, then take it off again, the horses don't look ready for bad weather yet. Does she have a shelter she can stand in though? If she has a good shelter and is fed hay in there, then wouldn't be so worried.


Okay thanks. She has a shelter in her field but it's only a 2 horse shelter, her herd manage to squeeze in 3 horses though with the 3rd having their butt stick out, the 4th stands outside. I wish they had a 4 horse shelter so all 4 could stay in but not much I can do.

From what I've seen though, they share the space really well and when they all want some shelter, they manage to squeeze in so the 4th one can at least get close enough to use the shelter as a windblocker. 

One of my friends has told me a couple times that I shouldn't be blanketing Fly because it will affect and slow down the growth of her winter coat because the blanket compresses their coat. I don't think that is true. I told her that you are fine as long as you take off their winter blanket when it gets warmer and don't leave it on.

Unfortunately, all the horses are fed hay OUTSIDE of their shelters. This is the one thing that I wish was done differently, have the horses fed INSIDE their shelters when it's snowing or storming because no horse wants to get drenched while having their meal. I know at the previous barn when I fed all the horses when it was pouring out, I would run into each horses shelter and put their food there. There were some horses who wouldn't step outside to eat their food if it was pouring out lol.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> One of my friends has told me a couple times that I shouldn't be blanketing Fly because it will affect and slow down the growth of her winter coat because the blanket compresses their coat. I don't think that is true. I told her that you are fine as long as you take off their winter blanket when it gets warmer and don't leave it on.


It's actually the amount of light that effects hair growth. A lot of show barns will leave the lights on 24/7 so the horses don't get a winter coat.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> It's actually the amount of light that effects hair growth. A lot of show barns will leave the lights on 24/7 so the horses don't get a winter coat.


Oh and this light also includes the sunlight? So basically the more she has a blanket on with the sun out, it more her coat will be affected and it won't growth to it's full capacity?


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Oh and this light also includes the sunlight? So basically the more she has a blanket on with the sun out, it more her coat will be affected and it won't growth to it's full capacity?


Yes- sunlight included. And no...adding a blanket won't inhibit hair growth by blocking out the light. Think of it in terms of "length of the day." In the spring days start getting longer and hair starts shedding. Summer has the longest days= short coats, fall...days start getting longer and summer coats shed out and winter coats start coming in. Winter has shorter days and longer coats. You can created longer days artificially by adding light.

The light in their ENVIRONMENT is what effects the hair growth, not physically covering it up.


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## Prairie

Actually it's the amount of light that the horse's eyes pick up, not how much the body itself does. 


It actually varies by the individual horses on feeding inside or outside in rough weather. While ours have free access to their stalls with plenty of hay, all 4 seem to prefer to brave the cold and moisture as long as they are out of the wind. 


The same is true for blanketing---it depends on the individual horse. Were 1000+ miles south of Hoofpic and our horses are developing a good winter coat already. Its not the long heavy coat they'll have in winter, but it's sufficient to protect them from the freezing warning tonight since they can get out of the wind and I throw extra hay tonight to help keep them warm.


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## Hoofpic

I wasn't able to get many good shots from the herd of wildies that were passing by the stables just as I was leaving but here is some. I got a couple videos coming as well.


















I got some videos of this little guy. He was quite curious. I would have loved to go up to him but the herd would most likely chase me away.


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## PoptartShop

Such gorgeous shots!


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Such gorgeous shots!


Thanks, I could have done a lot better.

Do you think I made the right choice by not going right up to them? I was really wanting to go up to the foals.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and this light also includes the sunlight? So basically the more she has a blanket on with the sun out, it more her coat will be affected and it won't growth to it's full capacity?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes- sunlight included. And no...adding a blanket won't inhibit hair growth by blocking out the light. Think of it in terms of "length of the day." In the spring days start getting longer and hair starts shedding. Summer has the longest days= short coats, fall...days start getting longer and summer coats shed out and winter coats start coming in. Winter has shorter days and longer coats. You can created longer days artificially by adding light.
> 
> The light in their ENVIRONMENT is what effects the hair growth, not physically covering it up.
Click to expand...

Oh no that is not good. So if I leave the blanket on Fly for the morning and dont remove it until the afternoon on a sunny day, that will affect her winter coat.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Oh no that is not good. So if I leave the blanket on Fly for the morning and dont remove it until the afternoon on a sunny day, that will affect her winter coat.


NO, it will make no difference, a couple of days wearing a blanket because of an early snow storm will damage her coat growth at all.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Oh no that is not good. So if I leave the blanket on Fly for the morning and dont remove it until the afternoon on a sunny day, that will affect her winter coat.


No. It's not going to bother anything.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, I could have done a lot better.
> 
> Do you think I made the right choice by not going right up to them? I was really wanting to go up to the foals.


Bear cubs are cute too but would you walk up to them?
Yes, you made the right choice.


----------



## EliRose

Please do not approach wildlife. Ever. That's a good way to win a Darwin Award, or get the animals shot.

I invite to reread jenkat's post on blanketing, because you missed the point completely.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh no that is not good. So if I leave the blanket on Fly for the morning and dont remove it until the afternoon on a sunny day, that will affect her winter coat.
> 
> 
> 
> NO, it will make no difference, a couple of days wearing a blanket because of an early snow storm will damage her coat growth at all.
Click to expand...

Okay thanks. I felt all the horses in her herd and notice that their winter coats are starting to come in. Her mates are starting to get fuzzy, same with Fly. 

It was so cold at the barn tonight that I wasn't even warm enough to ride, even with my winter stuff hear. Pretty soon I will have to start wearing base layers again.

I will try to ride Fly tomorrow but it's suppose to be ugly this weekend. 

You don't think it's a safety risk blanketing a horse in a herd do you? I've always been worried that her mates will chew or bite it and the blanket will soon be destroyed.


----------



## Golden Horse

Yes, they will chew it, rip it, or she will catch it on the fence and rip it.

Relax Hoofpic, it's all part of keeping horses, there is little safety issue, it is just an expensive pain in the neck if your horse is a blanket destroyer, or of she is kept with destroyers. Fergie wrecked her expensive fly sheet 3 times before I gave up. I may fix it again during the long winter, but maybe not.


AND

You need to toughen up young man, it might be snowing, but it isn't even starting to get cold yet, grow a warm pair and ride, you have an indoor, don't be a whimp.


----------



## Hoofpic

Flys feet from a few days ago. Notice the white. Should I be concerned?


----------



## greentree

You must not be using the hoof conditioner, lol!! 

They are just fine.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You must not be using the hoof conditioner, lol!!
> 
> They are just fine.


But why is it white by the coronary band? I first thought it was dry.


----------



## Hoofpic

A real nice herd.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Bear cubs are cute too but would you walk up to them?
> Yes, you made the right choice.


No I would not walk up to bear cubs. Is it true that wild horses are much more dangerous than regular horses that have been handled?


----------



## waresbear

Any animal in the wild can be dangerous, admire from a distance. Yes my friend, you need to work up a sweat. I ride first thing in the morning, it was -2C, by the end of the first ride (I ride 3 horses a day before I go to work), I had the coat off and was down to just a hoody. You'll will get used to it. Cool journal by the way, you have come a long way.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Yes- sunlight included. And no...adding a blanket won't inhibit hair growth by blocking out the light. Think of it in terms of "length of the day." In the spring days start getting longer and hair starts shedding. Summer has the longest days= short coats, fall...days start getting longer and summer coats shed out and winter coats start coming in. Winter has shorter days and longer coats. You can created longer days artificially by adding light.
> 
> The light in their ENVIRONMENT is what effects the hair growth, not physically covering it up.


I kinda get it but I'm still a bit confused. So the fall and winter sunlight won't effect winter coat growth because of the shorter days?


----------



## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I kinda get it but I'm still a bit confused. So the fall and winter sunlight won't effect winter coat growth because of the shorter days?


It is BECAUSE of the shorter days. Less light = more coat. More light = less coat. If you don't want a horse to grow a coat (or trick a mare into going into heat) you put them under lights at night. It is a brain thing, not a skin thing, to put it simply.

Of course wild horses are more dangerous - they're *wild animals*!!!!! A squirrel could cause serious damage, let alone a horse. Dude, please don't mess with wildlife.


----------



## Tazzie

Golden Horse said:


> You need to toughen up young man, it might be snowing, but it isn't even starting to get cold yet, grow a warm pair and ride, you have an indoor, don't be a whimp.


THIS! About a MILLION times THIS. I ride outside in the winter with the stinging winter air numbing my face. You have a cozy indoor. Buck up and RIDE. Use common sense (maybe don't work her into a lather), but for goodness sake. Just get out and ride. Guarantee you'll be peeling off layers to ride in that indoor! Stop the excuses and the complaints. You are SO fortunate you have an indoor. If you want to make excuses about the temperature, then switch me. I will HAPPILY take your indoor for the winter, and you can use the outdoor temperature as an excuse not to ride :lol:

And I'm not sure how you aren't getting the blanket and hair thing. In the summer the days are long. There is TONS of sun. The hair is short. In the winter the days are super short. The sun is rarely out. The hair is long. Show horses and breeding farms typically put either massive lights on outside in the winter to "extend" the "sunlight", or have them inside under lights. Horses aren't fuzzy to show all winter, and mares can be bred earlier (typically in the Thoroughbred industry where you want them born as close to January 1st as possible without being before it; since they all age a year on the first.) It's to trick their hormone cycles into thinking it's a never ending summer. Your mare is outside. She will grow a coat. She may not have done so yet since the days are still relatively long. She may be starting to, but it may be too cold to let her go without a blanket. She will be fine. You may have repairs to do, but that is the life of owning a horse.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I kinda get it but I'm still a bit confused. So the fall and winter sunlight won't effect winter coat growth because of the shorter days?


EVERY day, the days are either getting shorter or longer. Every day, 365 days per year. This includes winter, summer ,spring and fall. 

So the horse's entire body is being affected by this EVERY day. 

Please, read some books. Sorry, but i learned this in elementary school....


----------



## 6gun Kid

Ok homie, 
>Long days=short hair. 
> Never approach *ANY *wild animal *EVER! *
> You have come quite a ways, so pat yourself on the back.
> Realize, that no matter how far you have come, you have a long, long, long, way to go!


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Yes, they will chew it, rip it, or she will catch it on the fence and rip it.
> 
> Relax Hoofpic, it's all part of keeping horses, there is little safety issue, it is just an expensive pain in the neck if your horse is a blanket destroyer, or of she is kept with destroyers. Fergie wrecked her expensive fly sheet 3 times before I gave up. I may fix it again during the long winter, but maybe not.
> 
> 
> AND
> 
> You need to toughen up young man, it might be snowing, but it isn't even starting to get cold yet, grow a warm pair and ride, you have an indoor, don't be a whimp.


I can handle extreme temps pretty good, but for some reason yesterday I couldn't get warm enough.

I won't worry anymore about blanketing her and if her mates are going to shred her blanket. We are suppose to get 5-10cm today of dry snow and 1-3cm of rain and 1-3cm of snow on Saturday or Sunday (so I'm guessing rain + snow = wet snow). 

I'm the only person at the barn who believes in blanketing horses when needed. 

Blanketing horses and hoof conditioners are the two things that I'm the only person at the barn who has an opposite opinion than everyone else at the barn and this includes my trainer and BO as well.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I'm the only person at the barn who believes in blanketing horses when needed.


Or maybe people differ as to when it is needed?

Blanketing is such a personal choice, one of mine is blanketed while this winter blast blows through, 2 aren't.


----------



## Hoofpic

waresbear said:


> Any animal in the wild can be dangerous, admire from a distance. Yes my friend, you need to work up a sweat. I ride first thing in the morning, it was -2C, by the end of the first ride (I ride 3 horses a day before I go to work), I had the coat off and was down to just a hoody. You'll will get used to it.


I have no doubt that I will get used to it. This will be my first winter of riding. 

If there is one thing that I learned from last winter, it was that I got a ton of alone time where I had the entire arena to myself (as I would be the only one at the barn), because I am willing (and did) to go when it's dark out and from what I've noticed, no one else at the barn is willing to do that in the winters. A headlamp and pocket flashlights do the trick. 

So of course I had a lot of free leisure use of the arena whenever I wanted even when I had my outside trainer out. It was quite nice being at the barn alone and not having to fight others for the arena. 

I plan on doing the same this winter. 

The only bad thing is that I see a lot less of my trainer (because lessons will be called off when weather is bad enough) and a lot less of my friends because they will not go to the barn when its dark out or when its -30 out. But I am not willing to sacrifice my time at the barn just because of weather, nothing will stand in my way. Last winter, I went several weeks at a time between seeing my friends and trainer. 



> Cool journal by the way, you have come a long way.


Thanks.


----------



## Hoofpic

Snow is coming down hard and it's -2C (-9C with winchill) at the barn. YIKES. Will check on the horses shortly. Might have to blanket her if she is shivering.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Snow is coming down hard and it's -2C (-9C with winchill) at the barn. YIKES. Will check on the horses shortly. Might have to blanket her if she is shivering.


Shivering is a normal and natural way for an animal to warm up, so not SO much of a worry, check if her 'armpits' are warm. If she is already wet through you are either going to have to take her in and dry her before you blanket, or let her get on with it as she is. She is young and fit, and has lived through much worse without any coverings, she will be fine.

My barn owner sent round a message saying that everyone was OK, extra hay is being fed, but she would prefer everyone to have blankets at the barn so she can make sure everyone is comfortable, she will blanket a horse that is showing signs of struggling with the cold, and wet.


----------



## Prairie

Quit fretting about Fly in every situation or you're going to end up with an ulcer! Our temperature suddenly dropped 30* F last evening as the cold front came through and all the horses, dogs, and barn cats were find even though the wind was gusting to over 40 mph. They were able to get out of the wind and I just threw them extra food since digestion creates heat to keep them warm. 


Th8 of wild mustangs or all the horses who only are on pasture----as long as the horses can get out of the wind, Mother Nature has done an excellent job of providing them with coats that will protect them from nasty weather. Unless the horse is clipped most blanket is for the owner's peace of mind, not the horse's comfort


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I kinda get it but I'm still a bit confused. So the fall and winter sunlight won't effect winter coat growth because of the shorter days?
> 
> 
> 
> It is BECAUSE of the shorter days. Less light = more coat. More light = less coat. If you don't want a horse to grow a coat (or trick a mare into going into heat) you put them under lights at night. It is a brain thing, not a skin thing, to put it simply.
> 
> Of course wild horses are more dangerous - they're *wild animals*!!!!! A squirrel could cause serious damage, let alone a horse. Dude, please don't mess with wildlife.
Click to expand...

Okay now I understand. Thanks.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Golden Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to toughen up young man, it might be snowing, but it isn't even starting to get cold yet, grow a warm pair and ride, you have an indoor, don't be a whimp.
> 
> 
> 
> THIS! About a MILLION times THIS. I ride outside in the winter with the stinging winter air numbing my face. You have a cozy indoor. Buck up and RIDE. Use common sense (maybe don't work her into a lather), but for goodness sake. Just get out and ride. Guarantee you'll be peeling off layers to ride in that indoor! Stop the excuses and the complaints. You are SO fortunate you have an indoor. If you want to make excuses about the temperature, then switch me. I will HAPPILY take your indoor for the winter, and you can use the outdoor temperature as an excuse not to ride
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm not sure how you aren't getting the blanket and hair thing. In the summer the days are long. There is TONS of sun. The hair is short. In the winter the days are super short. The sun is rarely out. The hair is long. Show horses and breeding farms typically put either massive lights on outside in the winter to "extend" the "sunlight", or have them inside under lights. Horses aren't fuzzy to show all winter, and mares can be bred earlier (typically in the Thoroughbred industry where you want them born as close to January 1st as possible without being before it; since they all age a year on the first.) It's to trick their hormone cycles into thinking it's a never ending summer. Your mare is outside. She will grow a coat. She may not have done so yet since the days are still relatively long. She may be starting to, but it may be too cold to let her go without a blanket. She will be fine. You may have repairs to do, but that is the life of owning a horse.
Click to expand...




Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Snow is coming down hard and it's -2C (-9C with winchill) at the barn. YIKES. Will check on the horses shortly. Might have to blanket her if she is shivering.
> 
> 
> 
> Shivering is a normal and natural way for an animal to warm up, so not SO much of a worry, check if her 'armpits' are warm. If she is already wet through you are either going to have to take her in and dry her before you blanket, or let her get on with it as she is. She is young and fit, and has lived through much worse without any coverings, she will be fine.
> 
> My barn owner sent round a message saying that everyone was OK, extra hay is being fed, but she would prefer everyone to have blankets at the barn so she can make sure everyone is comfortable, she will blanket a horse that is showing signs of struggling with the cold, and wet.
Click to expand...

I feel her armpits, her ears, tummy and under her mane.

I always thought if a horse is shivering, it means theyre cold.

Its snowing where you are? You must be in Canada.

The thing is our BO is still in the hospital but Im confident that my trainer is tossing out extra hay if she feels she needs to. We all really miss the BO.

I want to take the bulls by the horn and run the place while he is away but I know I cant.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Ok homie,
> >Long days=short hair.
> > Never approach *ANY *wild animal *EVER! *
> > You have come quite a ways, so pat yourself on the back.
> > Realize, that no matter how far you have come, you have a long, long, long, way to go!


Thanks. I am pleased with my progress so far but come next year, I will need to step things up even more. Yes I bought a horse (and a green one at that) a bit too early and it wasn't the wisest decision on my part but I've been doing everything in my power to learn the ropes and get myself to where I need to be to work with a green mare.

IMO, now would have been a good time for me to buy a horse, but again, what's done is done and it's all a learning experience. In no way, shape or form do I regret buying a horse as early as I did, but I know I could have waited a bit to get my knowledge up a bit more before buying a horse. 

I'm looking forward to next year.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I feel her armpits, her ears, tummy and under her mane.
> 
> I always thought if a horse is shivering, it means theyre cold.
> 
> Its snowing where you are? You must be in Canada.
> 
> The thing is our BO is still in the hospital but Im confident that my trainer is tossing out extra hay if she feels she needs to. We all really miss the BO.
> *
> I want to take the bulls by the horn and run the place while he is away but I know I cant.*


NO, NO you can't, good grief why would you even think that you can? To do that you need knowledge and experience and you are still sort on both! I'm looking after our barn for a day or two next week, even that is a scary thought! Both knowledge and experience comes with time, study asking questions, the right questions......it isn't your fault that you are still fairly new at this.

Yes if a horse is shivering it IS cold, and it is shivering to warm up, totally natural, probably nothing to worry about, but again, knowledge and experience tells you when to worry and when to wait. Horses managed for many years before we started messing with them.

Yes I am in Canada, next door in Sask, where some people got a foot of snow over the last couple of days. This is why I can talk about riding in an unheated indoor arena at -30*C I have done it, and will do it again. See when I talk about blanketing and riding conditions I do have a good idea what you are dealing with.


----------



## Hoofpic

Sorry I dont mean to worry.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I feel her armpits, her ears, tummy and under her mane.
> 
> I always thought if a horse is shivering, it means theyre cold.
> 
> Its snowing where you are? You must be in Canada.
> 
> The thing is our BO is still in the hospital but Im confident that my trainer is tossing out extra hay if she feels she needs to. We all really miss the BO.
> *
> I want to take the bulls by the horn and run the place while he is away but I know I cant.*
> 
> 
> 
> NO, NO you can't, good grief why would you even think that you can? To do that you need knowledge and experience and you are still sort on both! I'm looking after our barn for a day or two next week, even that is a scary thought! Both knowledge and experience comes with time, study asking questions, the right questions......it isn't your fault that you are still fairly new at this.
> 
> Yes if a horse is shivering it IS cold, and it is shivering to warm up, totally natural, probably nothing to worry about, but again, knowledge and experience tells you when to worry and when to wait. Horses managed for many years before we started messing with them.
> 
> Yes I am in Canada, next door in Sask, where some people got a foot of snow over the last couple of days. This is why I can talk about riding in an unheated indoor arena at -30*C I have done it, and will do it again. See when I talk about blanketing and riding conditions I do have a good idea what you are dealing with.
Click to expand...

I still love to feed and I do miss running the feed everyday at the old place. Though I will admit, I am better now than before because I have much more time to ride, read and do my own thing withot needing to feed 30+ horses.

Its just that Im so used to helping out with things.
I did so much at the old place that it still feels awkward not doing more than I currently am.

I just get so much satisfaction feeding horses and looking after them.

Last Feb 2015 before I even got Fly, I volunteered at barns way out of town and did feed and mucked paddocks and stalls just be be around horses again. I was so wanting to be around horses again that I was willing to do anything.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Its just that Im so used to helping out with things.
> I did so much at the old place that it still feels awkward not doing more than I currently am.


Helping out is completely different to running the place....certainly now would be a great time to offer a strong pair of hands there is always stuff to do at a barn, just let who ever is running it know that you would be happy to help out if needed


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its just that Im so used to helping out with things.
> I did so much at the old place that it still feels awkward not doing more than I currently am.
> 
> 
> 
> Helping out is completely different to running the place....certainly now would be a great time to offer a strong pair of hands there is always stuff to do at a barn, just let who ever is running it know that you would be happy to help out if needed
Click to expand...


I offered a hand to my trainer last week to feed but she said she is fine.

One of my friends offered to help with one of the young girls and she replied with a rude comment. My friend was offended.

So my friends said to just stay out of it unless they ask for help.


----------



## Prairie

It's no wonder the trainer was less than pleased with an offer from one of the newbies to help with a young girl. You need experience to be able to help. If you truly want to help, show up when it's time to muck stalls, measure out feed, clean water and feed buckets, clean aisles, etc., all work that takes time and is something you could do.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> It's no wonder the trainer was less than pleased with an offer from one of the newbies to help with a young girl. You need experience to be able to help. If you truly want to help, show up when it's time to muck stalls, measure out feed, clean water and feed buckets, clean aisles, etc., all work that takes time and is something you could do.


No my friend asked one of the young girls (who is arrogant and has an attitude thinking she knows everything) if she needed help stacking hay, and this girl said a very rude comment back to my friend. It hurt my friends feelings.


----------



## Prairie

Sorry I misinterpreted what you wrote.


----------



## greentree

Sometimes, a person needs to actually pick up a bale ( clean a bucket, muck a stall, rake or sweep an aisle...whatever) rather than ASK if they can help.... What I say when asked could probably be interpreted as rude, too.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I offered a hand to my trainer last week to feed but she said she is fine.


Offering to feed is one thing, but for a lot of barns that is not a job that they want other doing, sometimes the details are important. Something along the lines of "I would love to help out while BO is away, is there anything I can do right now?" would work, if there is nothing, then follow up with "I really want to help out, so please just ask if you want me to do anything"


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Sorry I misinterpreted what you wrote.


No prob


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Sometimes, a person needs to actually pick up a bale ( clean a bucket, muck a stall, rake or sweep an aisle...whatever) rather than ASK if they can help.... What I say when asked could probably be interpreted as rude, too.


My friends always do that with the BO and even though I don't stack hay, I do always sweep the aisle in the barn and I've done other stuff.


----------



## Hoofpic

There is some drama at the barn between my trainer and one of my friends.

The BO has 3 cats, one (his fav) has been missing for the past week and a bit. My friend has been very concerned because she knows that this is my BO's fav cat and he would be devastated if he lost him. She said that she seems to be the only person at the barn who actually cares about finding this cat. She said my trainer needs to show more compassion towards the BO's pets.

So over the past week, my friend has been putting out extra cat food in different places within the barn for the cat because she doesn't know where the cat is hiding and doesn't want him to go hungry. She was worried at first about him running away because his owner hasn't been here for a week and a half now.

She is not happy with the amount of cat food that the trainer has been putting out for the dogs and cats (trainer is the one in charge of feeding the BO's two dogs and 3 cats) while he is away in hospital, so my friend has been putting out extra food for the cats and two dogs. She claims that my trainer isn't putting out near enough food and especially tonight in this snow, they need extra food to keep warm (I saw her tonight).

My trainer knows that my friend has been putting out extra food for the BO's cats and dogs and last Sunday she told my friend to not feed them too much because she puts out food for them. Yesterday, my trainer put up a note in the barn saying to everyone to NOT feed the BO's cats or dogs and that she is doing it and has them on a schedule. But tonight my friend went around the barn to check on the amount of food that my trainer has been putting out for the little guys and said it's not enough, so she again put some more food out. 

I have a feeling this won't end well. I'm not getting myself involved either way.

My friend didn't have some very kind words tonight regarding my trainer. She said that she (as well as the BO's daughter and helper), need to step it up and help the BO with barn chores and feed more often to lessen his workload. Afterall he is 72 and he is fighting for his life in the hospital. My friend (who is extremely close to the BO), is just not happy with the trainer and helper right now. She feels that she shows more compassion than they do, and she has only known the BO for just over a year.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> My friends always do that with the BO and even though I don't stack hay,


Why not? Hay stacking is usually one where a hand is welcome




Hoofpic said:


> I do always sweep the aisle in the barn and I've done other stuff.


Well you should be sweeping the bit you are working on anyway, and sweeping the rest is handy, but really handy if done after the stalls are done for the morning or night.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Why not? Hay stacking is usually one where a hand is welcome
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well you should be sweeping the bit you are working on anyway, and sweeping the rest is handy, but really handy if done after the stalls are done for the morning or night.


Actually, last Sunday I helped out with hay stacking. My trainer was quite busy that day as she had to bring in 3 truck loads in 2 days and I got there on Sunday and I saw that they just arrived with hay and I just jumped right in, same with one of my friends.

We don't use any of the stalls, all the horses are in pastures. The only horses in a paddock are the mini donkeys with a mini pony.


----------



## Hoofpic

And I'm not sure what's going on with my other friend. We rarely text each other now. I just saw her on Tuesday and she seemed really off, so I left her alone and we didn't talk. Something is obviously bothering her. My guess is that she is still very upset about what happened on our ride Sunday with her not being able to ride her mare past the driveway. That plus her having to go to another barn to get lessons is a double whammy for not making her happy. Plus the BO being away is not helping either.

Like my other friend tonight at the barn, she kept telling me how it doesn't feel right with the BO not here and how people don't want to come out anymore. I agree, it doesn't feel right, it feels wierd without him here. But I am not going to be a downer and get all depressed about the situation. Of course we are all concerned about the health of the BO and we just want to see him get treated and make it home. But I am not going to become all negative about what is currently happening.

You see what I told you guys last week? I knew this was going to happen! People getting down about the BO not being at the barn and focusing far too much on the negatives. We need to keep our heads up and stay positive. Like I said, I went through this EXACT same thing at the previous barn, except that BO had a serious heart attack and was in the hospital for 3 months. When he left, the entire mood of the barn was a depressing place to be, but I refused to let others thoughts and feelings affect me.

I go to the barn to see and be around horses and enjoy myself. Not coming to the barn just because the BO isn't here is ridiculous IMO. But if some people don't want to come out because of that, then that is their problem. But I won't let this affect me.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> My friends always do that with the BO and even though I don't stack hay,





Hoofpic said:


> Actually, last Sunday I helped out with hay stacking.



OK, I'm confused, you don't stack hay, but you DO stack hay....

See how easy it is to confuse your readers


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> OK, I'm confused, you don't stack hay, but you DO stack hay....
> 
> See how easy it is to confuse your readers


Sorry what I meant was, I don't normally stack hay but last weekend I did the one time.


----------



## Hoofpic

Can people stop asking me every single time that I come out to the barn?

"did you ride"

"are you riding today"

"are you going to ride?"

"you not riding"

"have a good ride"......"what, you are not riding?!"

AHHHH ENOUGH! Stop asking me if Im going to ride! Unlike some people here, I dont ride every single time that Im out here, nor do I think about it 24/7. Nor do I obsess about it. Nor do I dream about it.

Me: Not today.
Them: Oh....o...k. 

Yes it is so abnormal and out of this world for me to not ride every single day Im at the barn. I mean its just totally awkward and strange that I go to the barn sometimes and dont ride. I bring Fly into the barn some times and dont saddle her up. Good lord.


----------



## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> So over the past week, my friend has been putting out extra cat food in different places within the barn ..
> 
> She is not happy with the amount of cat food that the trainer has been putting out for the dogs and cats (trainer is the one in charge of feeding the BO's two dogs and 3 cats) while he is away in hospital, so my friend has been putting out extra food for the cats and two dogs.


DEF not a situation you want to get caught up in. If the BO asked the _trainer_ to feed, then he must trust the trainer to do the right thing. Just like horses, randomly deciding to alter a cat or dog's diet is never a good idea. The fact food is all over the barn would also worry me - is all that food attracting wildlife? The last thing you need are opossums or raccoons or skunks deciding the barn is a great place for a free meal. 




Hoofpic said:


> Can people stop asking me every single time that I come out to the barn?
> 
> "did you ride"
> 
> "are you riding today"


Could that just be the easiest way to open a conversation? I have to say, that is probably the #1 thing I ask my SIL and it certainly isn't meant to be any sort of judgement on what she should or shouldn't be doing. Perhaps instead of being irritated by the question, look at it as people are interested enough to ask what your plans are. Would it be better for them to just not talk to you at all?


----------



## greentree

Funny, this was the "lesson" today...
"A man raised a baby swan in a glass jar, but as the bird grew it became stuck in jar.
The man was caught now, for the only way to free the thing was to break the jar, killing the swan.-- Zen saying

This parable speaks powerfully to the cleat containments we set about the ones we love, never imagining that who and what we love grows.What wr set up as paraneters, out of fear or arrogance, or even out of the best intentions of protection, can suffocate the very thing we hold precious.

Even mor devestating and subtle are the eays in which we jar ourselves. If our mind is the man raising the baby bird, then the swan is our heart. Too often, in an effort to protect ourselves from being hurt, we place our soft and growing heart in a clear jar of distrust, never dreaming that the heart continues, like a baby swan, to grow. Too often, we can contain our way of being within our way of surviving.

We simply live within that hardness, if we can call such constraint living. With such suffocation of heart in mind, Rachel Remen asks, " Is it possible to live so defensively that you never get to live at all?".As human beings, our distrust builds a hardened resolve over our innocence, the way that silver tarnishes when exposed to air. Only the quiet, daily courage to be can let the aor soften our hearts again.

Mark Nepo


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> DEF not a situation you want to get caught up in. If the BO asked the _trainer_ to feed, then he must trust the trainer to do the right thing. Just like horses, randomly deciding to alter a cat or dog's diet is never a good idea. The fact food is all over the barn would also worry me - is all that food attracting wildlife? The last thing you need are opossums or raccoons or skunks deciding the barn is a great place for a free meal.


I agree. I didn't want to be rude but my friend needs to mind her own business and trust the trainer. I know I trust her, just let her do her job. By checking up on the BO's dogs and cats and putting more food out for them, my friend is only going to make my trainer ****ed off. 

I went to the barn yesterday (in the mid afternoon) and the horses were all fed more hay as they were eating for quite some time so I came back later. 

Again today, I went out a bit earlier and again all the horses were fed more hay. My trainer obviously knows what she's doing and she's learned a thing or two from how the BO runs the place to pretty much do the same job while he is away.

It has been ugly the past two days and really cold. I got new thermal gloves and really liking them. 
The good news is that Fly was warm both yesterday and today and I didn't need to blanket her.

My friend has put out cat food in different places around the barn because she is trying to find the BO's fav kitty. She is worried that he will go hungry or run away. She's put cat food in the hay shed, in another small barn, in the arena, and couple other places along the outside of the barn where there are cracks and openings.



> Could that just be the easiest way to open a conversation? I have to say, that is probably the #1 thing I ask my SIL and it certainly isn't meant to be any sort of judgement on what she should or shouldn't be doing. Perhaps instead of being irritated by the question, look at it as people are interested enough to ask what your plans are. Would it be better for them to just not talk to you at all?


I don't mind people talking to me but it gets seriously old when I get asked the same question over and over again. People should realize that not every horse owner out there just sees horses as animals to ride. I see them as much more than just livestock animals. 

My trainer and BO don't ask me if I'm going to ride every time they see me because they know that I'm into much more than just riding.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I don't mind people talking to me but it gets seriously old when I get asked the same question over and over again. People should realize that not every horse owner out there just sees horses as animals to ride. I see them as much more than just livestock animals.
> 
> My trainer and BO don't ask me if I'm going to ride every time they see me because they know that I'm into much more than just riding.


I'm guessing a lot of people DO realize that, I ask people if they are riding today, there is nothing meant by it, just a question...some people only ride, so I don't ask them, I already KNOW that if they are there then they will ride.

You need to change your thinking around, be glad that someone is interested enough to talk to you, it is what makes a barn work, just answer them and don't feel you have to be defensive or make excuses, you are either riding, or you're not, your horse, your choice.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Can people stop asking me every single time that I come out to the barn?
> 
> "did you ride"
> 
> "are you riding today"
> 
> "are you going to ride?"
> 
> "you not riding"
> 
> "have a good ride"......"what, you are not riding?!"
> 
> AHHHH ENOUGH! Stop asking me if Im going to ride! Unlike some people here, I dont ride every single time that Im out here, nor do I think about it 24/7. Nor do I obsess about it. Nor do I dream about it.
> 
> Me: Not today.
> Them: Oh....o...k.
> 
> Yes it is so abnormal and out of this world for me to not ride every single day Im at the barn. I mean its just totally awkward and strange that I go to the barn sometimes and dont ride. I bring Fly into the barn some times and dont saddle her up. Good lord.


kind of a nosy bunch, but then they won't take advantage of your tolerance if you don't let them. 

you can say, "why are you asking?" if they ask you.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well I had my very first winter ride I guess you could say (even though it's technically not winter here), but it's been really cold the past two days here and I wanted to experience my first ride in what would be very identical to riding in the winter so I rode Fly today for 20mins. Just at a walk though, I didn't want Fly to get sweaty and I wasn't properly dressed as it was much colder at the barn than I expected. 

I was dressed properly yesterday as on cold days I prefer to wear snow pants but obviously you can't ride in them so today I didn't wear them. Huge mistake. 

I would love to ride in snow pants but obviously it's not ideal. I rode in jeans and lots of layers and have to say it wasn't near as comfortable as riding in the summer with less layers. But obviously winter riding you don't get that luxury. You will need to wear more layers regardless of it being less comfortable.

There was ice all over the trees and it was all melting and cracking and falling onto the roof of the barn (it was loud, sounded like someone was throwing glass at the barn) so I knew right away that this would be a good experience for Fly because then I can get her used to the ice hitting the roof of the barn. I wouldn't say that she was completely okay with it (riding her in the arena, she kept wanting to not go into the corners but I kept asking and got her to do it) and I don't think she was ever completely relaxed during our ride but she did relax as we went on.

On the way back to the field, ice was coming down from the trees and leaves were flying all over the place. She didn't freak out but she did not like it and she kept swinging her hind around to see what's going on. I just told her easy and to woah and got her to stop moving around. I was considering walking her past the trees a couple more times to get her less tense about it, but I didn't. I felt it wasn't the right time for it. 

On another note, I'm wondering if Fly has a sore spot and if I should get her massage therapist out before winter comes. Fly doesn't like it when you do up her cinch and she will turn her head and pin her ears to tell you. She did it today, she actually turned her head, put her ears back and didn't try to bite me but she opened her mouth and made a bit of the gesture. Not a full on biting gesture but it was enough for me to recognize it. 

I corrected her, I gave her a whack on the side of her neck and told her to quit and knock it off. So then, what did I do next? I undid the cinch and re-did it all over again to see if she would react and she didn't react at all. She still turned her head a bit back towards me, but didn't pin her ears back.

Seeing that I don't even tighten her cinch very tight at all, and I'm getting such a bad reaction from her is what makes me think she has a sore or uncomfortable spot and I should get it checked out.

When I do up her cinch, I do it slowly and gently. I make sure that I don't pinch her anywhere and I don't even fully tighten it since horses will always let out air and I always re-tighten her cinch when I walk her in the arena before mounting her. 

I notice that when I tighten her cinch, she will take a nibble or chew on the arena wall (wood). So this made me wonder if she is uncomfortable having her cinch done up due to a sore or sensitive spot?

I really need to get her to stop this bad habit of pinning her ears back at me and sometimes making the gesture with her mouth in about to bite.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I'm guessing a lot of people DO realize that, I ask people if they are riding today, there is nothing meant by it, just a question...some people only ride, so I don't ask them, I already KNOW that if they are there then they will ride.
> 
> You need to change your thinking around, be glad that someone is interested enough to talk to you, it is what makes a barn work, just answer them and don't feel you have to be defensive or make excuses, you are either riding, or you're not, your horse, your choice.


Whether that specific person is actually showing interest in talking to me is debatable. The two youngest girls at the barn (sisters, both help the BO with chores, one for free board, the other one for a half lease horse). All they do is ride, every single time they are at the barn. If they can't ride, they don't come out. They do the exact same stuff every time when they ride. I feel so bad for those horses.

So when we run into each other at the barn, they will only say one thing to me. "Did you ride yet". They're not even asking whether or not I'm even riding, they just assume that I'm going to ride that day.

They go catch their horse, saddle up, ride, put them back, that's it. They don't do anything else with them. Never graze them, never do fun stuff with them, never give them treats. How boring. Even as a rider, I couldn't imagine doing the same stuff every single time at the barn. It can't be very fun for the horse when you spend all your work time in the arena being asked for the same stuff over and over again.

Their mindsets are so like the BO's and trainers. Everyone at the barn (except for myself and my friends) are (1) so against giving horses treats (even if you feed it to them in a bucket) and (2) letting any horse eat grass when they have their halter on. They all swear by the bible that by doing both will give you a bad mannered horse, which I 100% completely disagree with.


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## greentree

I ride in snow pants. Why not ride in them?


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> They go catch their horse, saddle up, ride, put them back, that's it. They don't do anything else with them. Never graze them, never do fun stuff with them, never give them treats. How boring. Even as a rider, I couldn't imagine doing the same stuff every single time at the barn. It can't be very fun for the horse when you spend all your work time in the arena being asked for the same stuff over and over again.


Their horse their choice, judge not less you be judged.....

Everyone has the right to enjoy their horse time in their own way, ride, don't ride, ride in the arena, trail ride, DON'T judge them, and maybe they won't judge you. 

And before you say anything, YES it does sound like you are judging.

You know I don't much like people, but I spend my time at the barn being nice to people, complementing their horses, being supportive, it just makes it a nicer place.


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## TimWhit91

I ride in carhart coveralls in the winter. I normally get too warm and end up riding in them and just a long sleeve shirt. Toasty warm!


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## Rainaisabelle

Golden Horse said:


> Their horse their choice, judge not less you be judged.....
> 
> Everyone has the right to enjoy their horse time in their own way, ride, don't ride, ride in the arena, trail ride, DON'T judge them, and maybe they won't judge you.
> 
> And before you say anything, YES it does sound like you are judging.
> 
> You know I don't much like people, but I spend my time at the barn being nice to people, complementing their horses, being supportive, it just makes it a nicer place.


Sometimes I ride, feed and then leave. Does it make me a bad owner? Nope, do I appreciate when people make the kinds of comments you are making about the way I do things with my horse? No I don't and it's completely rude to judge what they're doing because they don't do what you do. It doesn't meant they don't have a bond with their horse.

Also agree with golden! You are judging.


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## jenkat86

I'm not throwing stones here. 

BUT...90% of my interaction with my horse is showing up the the barn, catching her, saddling her up, riding, cooling her down and then putting her in her stall. 

My horse has 22 other hours in the day to do "fun" stuff and be a horse. I ask her to do her job for less than two hours a day. I don't feed her treats because she gets her confidence from understanding when I think she's done a good job. 

I have a respectful horse who will do anything I ask. She isn't barn sour or buddy sour. I believe she enjoys the work I ask of her. But according to your philosophy I don't do anything "fun" with her. 

Think about how it makes you feel when people at your barn ask "Are you riding?" or ,"did you ride?" And then think about how WE might feel when you insinuate how shallow their relationships are with their horses. 

This is your journal. I get that. But from one friend to another, consider both sides of the coin.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

Just wanted to say that 100% agree with everything that has been said this far on this topic, and add one more thought. 

I wouldn't "feel bad for their horses." As long as they're happy, healthy, and sound, I don't feel there's a reason to feel bad for them.

Many horses love to work, and don't particularly care for being fussed over. I know that my own horse falls under this category.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I ride in snow pants. Why not ride in them?


Aren't they too thick and can get caught up in the stirrups? And they're noisy.

One of the girls at the barn today wore snow pants (coveralls) and rode and said it was hard cause of all the layers.

If it's safe to ride in snow pants I am going to try it because for winter snowpants will be my go to pants as I'm not making the same mistake as last winter being underdressed. I got off lucky because we got such a light winter, if it was -35 I would have died. I didn't have proper gloves last winter, or a proper winter coat or base layers. Base layers are expensive but worth it IMO. Once I got a set, I couldn't believe the difference they make.

So I went shopping yesterday and again tonight. I picked up another pair of snowpants since my same set were on sale for a great price. I reall wanted to have two pairs strictly for the barn (I have two other pairs for outside the barn), because (1) I will be wearing snow pants just about everyday for the winter and switching between the two back and fourth will lower the number of times I need to wash them. Because they need to be washed with a special detergent made for waterproof clothing, that stuff is not cheap, so it should cut back on how much I spend on that detergent. IMO, the $50 spent on the 2nd set of snowpants will pay itself off by the end of the winter.

I also got two pairs of thermal gloves as my old pair was 3 years old and was time to retire. Plus they can't handle the temperatures that my new gloves can and my new ones go up my wrists (which I really love). One pair for the barn and the other for outside the barn.

And you know how I said that I needed a fall coat? Well I bought a really cool light vest that I can wear in the fall or on windy days. It will be a nice vest to wear to horse shows on top of my hoodies. It was regular $120 and was 40% off so I got it for $75. 

And finally, this has been on my mind for awhile now. I know that I needed a heavier coat, but I have been putting it off for the past year because i didn't want to spend the money on a coat for the barn in the winter. So I just stuck with my downfill vest (which is great and still in great shape and it's over 10 years old!). Talk about getting your moneys worth. I paid $80 for it.

I didn't want to spend a lot of money on a new coat so when I was picking up the vest tonight, the guy suggested to just buy a lighter downfill coat because they're a lot cheaper than a full on coat, and if I need the extra warmth, just wear it on top of my current down vest. Fantastic idea! This is much better too because it's far better to layer. 

All these vests and coats will be living in my trunk 365 days a year. 

So I picked up a downfill coat for only $75. It was regular $130 and 40% off. Im very pleased because I didn't want to spend $200 on a new coat. Afterall, it's going to get really dirty.

The coat can handle temps as low as -15C, whereas the vest that I've been wearing for the past 10 years only goes to -10C. But if I wear the coat on top of the vest, it makes the combo go as low as -25C. I'm happy that I will be warmer this winter.

Because after today, it was not fun being cold at the barn and I knew I had to do something ASAP.

So I had to spend some money on winter clothing, but at least now I know I will be more prepared for colder temps.

Most importantly, my new down coat and my new vest can both be worn on top of any of my hoodies. Because you know me, I will not go without my hoodies.


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## Golden Horse

With winters like ours you have to spend money on good winter clothes, these are an option for snow pants to ride in https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/mountain-horse-mountain-rider-pant-10553

I wear English Winter breeches in the winter, with long thermal underwear underneath, I don't care if I look odd riding western in English pants, I just want to be warm.

Winter riding pants

Product Categories Winter Riding Pants | The Horse Habit


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## Hoofpic

Here in AB, we do see some -30 to -35 days in the winter and as much as I wanted that other coat that I tried on tonight that can handle an extra 10 degrees over the one I chose, it was twice the price and I couldn't do it. Plus it didn't come in black either, so that was a deal breaker. But with base layers and my vest and coat on top and hoodies, I'm almost certain that it could handle -30 to -35 weather.

Anyone here heard of Eddie Bauer? I'm a big fan of their winter clothing, it's really good quality for the money and it lasts. My current down vest that is 10 years old is a Eddie Bauer and it doesn't have any rips and it's been through everything.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> kind of a nosy bunch, but then they won't take advantage of your tolerance if you don't let them.
> 
> you can say, "why are you asking?" if they ask you.


I went through the same thing at the previous barn as well except at the old barn I was asked "So when are you going to ride Fly?"...."What are you waiting for, just get on her, you will be fine" every single day numerous times.

The worst advice ever given to me was still from the barn helper at the previous barn who said that I should just get on Fly on my own, no supervision and ride her because I've had riding lessons before. Worst and most dangerous advice ever.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Their horse their choice, judge not less you be judged.....
> 
> Everyone has the right to enjoy their horse time in their own way, ride, don't ride, ride in the arena, trail ride, DON'T judge them, and maybe they won't judge you.
> 
> And before you say anything, YES it does sound like you are judging.
> 
> You know I don't much like people, but I spend my time at the barn being nice to people, complementing their horses, being supportive, it just makes it a nicer place.


Sorry, I don't mean to judge.


----------



## Hoofpic

TimWhit91 said:


> I ride in carhart coveralls in the winter. I normally get too warm and end up riding in them and just a long sleeve shirt. Toasty warm!


Thanks. After hearing that riding in snowpants isn't a safety issue, I am at least going to try it out. I think it's doable to ride in snow pants but how about with snowpants and base layers underneath?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I'm not throwing stones here.
> 
> BUT...90% of my interaction with my horse is showing up the the barn, catching her, saddling her up, riding, cooling her down and then putting her in her stall.
> 
> My horse has 22 other hours in the day to do "fun" stuff and be a horse. I ask her to do her job for less than two hours a day. I don't feed her treats because *she gets her confidence from understanding when I think she's done a good job*.
> 
> I have a respectful horse who will do anything I ask. She isn't barn sour or buddy sour. I believe she enjoys the work I ask of her. But according to your philosophy I don't do anything "fun" with her.
> 
> Think about how it makes you feel when people at your barn ask "Are you riding?" or ,"did you ride?" And then think about how WE might feel when you insinuate how shallow their relationships are with their horses.
> 
> This is your journal. I get that. But from one friend to another, consider both sides of the coin.


And that is what I've been doing with Fly too. You also do stuff that your horse enjoys so that's what matters. I can't necessarily say the same for other horses, but that's just my thoughts.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> And that is what I've been doing with Fly too. You also do stuff that your horse enjoys so that's what matters. I can't necessarily say the same for other horses, but that's just my thoughts.


Read @jenkat86 post again, and tell me where it says that they do stuff that their horse enjoys?


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## bsms

Here is a thread you might be interested in:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/willing-compliance-aversive-reflex-727450/

I see nothing wrong in judging something, on your journal, to the extent of saying, "I don't want to ride like that!" You are not trying to stop anyone else from doing it - nor could you. But as you ride, it is completely reasonable to ponder, "What sort of rider do I want to be?"

There are a lot of riders I don't want to be like. There are a lot of riders who don't want to be like me. That is OK, in both directions. Every ride and every interaction trains a horse. Every rider is a trainer. It is important to think about - and sometimes to think out loud about - what sort of horse trainer you want to be or are willing to be.

The linked thread discusses positive and negative reinforcement, and contemplates the differences between an obedient horse and an enthusiastic horse. Is the horse there to submit to your will? Why does the horse submit? What are you willing to do, in training and riding, and how do you balance what the horse wants with what you want - and how do you arrive at that balance? Those are questions each rider should ask themselves, and there will not be one right answer.


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## greentree

Remember, horses enjoy eating and killing themselves. That is ALL of the things they enjoy. The rest is just about US.


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## Golden Horse

greentree said:


> Remember, horses enjoy eating and killing themselves. That is ALL of the things they enjoy. The rest is just about US.


:lol: Someone stole the ROFL smiley again....so that one will have to do..

Some don't actually manage to kill themselves, but spend a lifetime managing to get one injury after another, just well enough spaced that they rarely work


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## bsms

This passage from a book written 148 years ago has bounced around in my mind since I first read it. It has, over time, started to shape my riding:

"...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. It is evident that all these things must be taken into account and receive due attention, whether it be our object to prevent or to get rid of some bad habit a horse may have acquired ; and a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness..."

On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)

"...if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness..."


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## Hoofpic

Jenkat's mare works with cattle. She enjoys it.

I know forsure that arena riding isn't Fly's thing. She will let out big exhales and be very vocal to tell me that. But I at least do other stuff with her with obstacles and fortunately this IS her thing as well as mine. I think the fact that arena riding isn't either of ours thing plays to our advantage so she knows that I'm not going to drill her with the same stuff over and over.

The girls at my barn just ride around the arena every time and do nothing else. No horse wants to do the exact same thing everyday. It's like doing groundwork with them and doing the same stuff over and over again.


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## egrogan

Maybe you just don't know enough about riding to know that they are working on different things that are too subtle to pick up on?


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## Golden Horse

Big exhales = relaxation, what else does she do to vocalise that she doesn't enjoy arena riding? Some horses are very clear on what they do and don't like, but so often I think we project what we do and don't like onto them.

Again, you do with your horse what you enjoy, that is why you have her, but you really don't know what anyone else and their horses enjoy. 

Look again and Jenkats point, my horse has at least 20 hours a day to be a horse, hang out, do what she likes, her JOB is to do what I want for the other few hours.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Sorry, I don't mean to judge.


Well, you kinda do.

Definition of _sit in judgment_ 

: to say whether or not someone or something is morally good, proper, etc. _<He has no right to sit in judgment on/of/over me.>_


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## greentree

Try this, Hoofpic....sit in a chair in a quiet room. Relax. Then cscrunch up your face, as if you were very unhappy. Concentrate on your body, then smile, still concentrating on your body. 

You will feel how the frown causes tension in parts of your body besides your face. And the smile relaxes you in other parts of your body. 

So, when these girls are happy, there is no tension in thier bodies, and the horses are a
Lso having a good time, in the absence of tension.

If you are tense, frowning and frustrated and scared out on the trail, your horse is not having a good time, even though it is not in the arena!!!


----------



## Prairie

A few notes....


Why would a horse who's on pasture most of the day enjoy being hand grazed?


Why would a horse who has a buddy so they mutually groom each other think a human grooming them is fun?


If you want to make friends, why not respond to their questions about riding? 


Just because one garment is rated for -10* and another is rated for -20* does not mean it will be comfortable in -30*--if that were true, humans could like at absolute 0* by just putting on enough layers!


Why spend all that money on snowpants when for much less money you could buy the right detergent and wash them? Personally, if it's bitter cold out, I just put on my chaps which hold in body neat from my waist clear down past my toes and a made for riding so there's no consideration about if they are safe!


Why be so worried about what everyone else is doing? Unless I see a horse being abused, I really don't care what other riders are doing, but I may watch them hoping to pick up a few new ideas for my bag of tricks.


Have you read the thread, http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/trials-tribulations-adult-beginner-728434/, which may be a good comparison to where you are in the road to the horse!


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> I don't mind people talking to me but it gets seriously old when I get asked the same question over and over again. People should realize that not every horse owner out there just sees horses as animals to ride. I see them as much more than just livestock animals.
> 
> My trainer and BO don't ask me if I'm going to ride every time they see me because they know that I'm into much more than just riding.


What the heck do you ask a semi-stranger, at a riding facility, to break the ice?


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Maybe you just don't know enough about riding to know that they are working on different things that are too subtle to pick up on?


Maybe but I doubt it.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Remember, horses enjoy eating and killing themselves. That is ALL of the things they enjoy. The rest is just about US.


True, but I still like to make the work enjoyable for them. I hate to bring up Parelli again, but like he said in one of his demonstrations at the Mane Event in April of this year, make it fun for your horse as well. Play music if you have to.

Like he also said, "once the halter is off, there is only one thing that stands between the horse and the handler, the truth".


----------



## 6gun Kid

As far as clothes, I once worked for an old timey Alberta cowboy, when I asked him about the temps. He swore by flannel lined jeans, over long johns, and under chaps.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Maybe but I doubt it.


Not sure I understand that one, could you explain please


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> With winters like ours you have to spend money on good winter clothes, these are an option for snow pants to ride in https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/mountain-horse-mountain-rider-pant-10553
> 
> I wear English Winter breeches in the winter, with long thermal underwear underneath, I don't care if I look odd riding western in English pants, I just want to be warm.
> 
> Winter riding pants
> 
> Product Categories Winter Riding Pants | The Horse Habit


Thanks. I do agree that spending good money on good quality winter clothes is a must for us canadians. 

I do have limits though. For instance, I will never spend money on what it costs up here for mens English breeches. 

So riding in base layers is not too uncomfortable? I was going to try today but I was already getting hot from just walking around the barn, so I didn't. But if it was a -10C day in the winter, then it might be a different story.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Not sure I understand that one, could you explain please


What I meant was (I don't watch them like a hawk when they are riding), but I've seen enough from just observing and they do the exact same stuff every single time.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> Maybe but I doubt it.


Really? You have become that good in six months to know?

Really.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> What I meant was (I don't watch them like a hawk when they are riding), but I've seen enough from just observing and they do the exact same stuff every single time.


And???


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> What I meant was (I don't watch them like a hawk when they are riding), but I've seen enough from just observing and they do the exact same stuff every single time.


I'm sorry I still don't understand, are they so good that they are perfect and they do the same things beautifully, or are they working on improvements in similar things? If they are working on improvements, then they are not doing exactly the same stuff, they are developing things.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Try this, Hoofpic....sit in a chair in a quiet room. Relax. Then cscrunch up your face, as if you were very unhappy. Concentrate on your body, then smile, still concentrating on your body.
> 
> You will feel how the frown causes tension in parts of your body besides your face. And the smile relaxes you in other parts of your body.
> 
> So, when these girls are happy, there is no tension in thier bodies, and the horses are a
> Lso having a good time, in the absence of tension.
> 
> If you are tense, frowning and frustrated and scared out on the trail, your horse is not having a good time, even though it is not in the arena!!!


I have noticed this as well, but when I'm at the barn I am not tense. I don't frown at people. I don't mean to sound over the top, but I am one of the best in keeping and handling my composure.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> What the heck do you ask a semi-stranger, at a riding facility, to break the ice?


There are lots of things. One of the young girls, I actually get along with her fairly well, I'm just not as close to her as I am with my friends. But we still say hi and ask how each other is doing etc. I know that she has made her dislike for my friends obvious, and she has hurt my friends feelings but I don't let that bother me. What's between her and my friends is between them.

The other girl (her sister), I don't talk to her at all. We just go about doing our own thing.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I have noticed this as well, but when I'm at the barn I am not tense. I don't frown at people. I don't mean to sound over the top, but I am one of the best in keeping and handling my composure.


You have no way of knowing that, you truly don't, to know how someone is handling their composure you have to know them really well, have the ability to step into their skin.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Why would a horse who's on pasture most of the day enjoy being hand grazed?


But why not? Fly's herd has very little grass. Sometimes I will hand graze her, sometimes I will leave her in the outdoor arena to graze, sometimes I will put her in the roundpen to graze while I do other things.



> Why would a horse who has a buddy so they mutually groom each other think a human grooming them is fun?


I think it depends on the horse. Some horses still like being brushed. I know the mare who I worked with in a clinic about 4 months ago, the temporary owner of her said that she actually prefers to be around people than her own herd.



> If you want to make friends, why not respond to their questions about riding?


I do. They ask me if I'm going to ride and I tell them if I am or not.



> Just because one garment is rated for -10* and another is rated for -20* does not mean it will be comfortable in -30*--if that were true, humans could like at absolute 0* by just putting on enough layers!


I think it depends on what material the clothing is made of. I do think layering downfill material will make you more tolerable to colder temps. The best part about layering is that if it suddenly warms up on a cold day, you aren't stuck lugging around a heavy coat. It wouldn't really apply to the barn since I would just toss it in my car, but imagine if you are on the bus or train from work. I've been down this road before having to lug around my big leather coat (plus a work bag) and it's not fun. This is one reason why my leather coat isn't my style anymore. If I could sell it I would but a 7 year old coat, you won't get anything for it so I'm keeping it for the odd occasion that I have to dress up.



> Why spend all that money on snowpants when for much less money you could buy the right detergent and wash them? Personally, if it's bitter cold out, I just put on my chaps which hold in body neat from my waist clear down past my toes and a made for riding so there's no consideration about if they are safe!


For snowpants you need a special detergent and here it costs $20 a bottle. That bottle usually lasts 3 or 4 washes. 

That reminds me, if I ride in snowpants, there is no way my half chaps will fit around them. No big deal but still a factor to note.



> Why be so worried about what everyone else is doing? Unless I see a horse being abused, I really don't care what other riders are doing, but I may watch them hoping to pick up a few new ideas for my bag of tricks.


I don't care what others are doing. If they want to ride everytime out at the barn, then go ahead. I just hate being asked every time I'm out there if I'm going to ride. 



> Have you read the thread, http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/trials-tribulations-adult-beginner-728434/, which may be a good comparison to where you are in the road to the horse!


No I haven't but I'm going to read it, thanks.


----------



## palogal

You have NO idea what you're talking about, truly. 

If you're tired of telling people you didn't ride, RIDE. It sounds like you know you should be riding but you aren't. That's your issue, not theirs. They are just trying to be nice. 

As for 'doing the same thing'. Things take practice, lots of it. I take lesson from a Grand Prix trainer and we work on the same movements for months at a time, refining and fine tuning every time. You don't know what you're seeing and you're being very judgmental about it. If you don't understand that riding takes years and years to learn, you're in the wrong sport.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> But why not? Fly's herd has very little grass. Sometimes I will hand graze her, sometimes I will leave her in the outdoor arena to graze, sometimes I will put her in the roundpen to graze while I do other things.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it depends on the horse. Some horses still like being brushed. I know the mare who I worked with in a clinic about 4 months ago, the temporary owner of her said that she actually prefers to be around people than her own herd.
> 
> 
> 
> I do. They ask me if I'm going to ride and I tell them if I am or not.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it depends on what material the clothing is made of. I do think layering downfill material will make you more tolerable to colder temps. The best part about layering is that if it suddenly warms up on a cold day, you aren't stuck lugging around a heavy coat. It wouldn't really apply to the barn since I would just toss it in my car, but imagine if you are on the bus or train from work. I've been down this road before having to lug around my big leather coat (plus a work bag) and it's not fun. This is one reason why my leather coat isn't my style anymore. If I could sell it I would but a 7 year old coat, you won't get anything for it so I'm keeping it for the odd occasion that I have to dress up.
> 
> 
> 
> For snowpants you need a special detergent and here it costs $20 a bottle. That bottle usually lasts 3 or 4 washes.
> 
> That reminds me, if I ride in snowpants, there is no way my half chaps will fit around them. No big deal but still a factor to note.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care what others are doing. If they want to ride everytime out at the barn, then go ahead. I just hate being asked every time I'm out there if I'm going to ride.
> 
> 
> 
> No I haven't but I'm going to read it, thanks.


Actually you seem to care way to much how others ride, what they do with their horse(s), how often they go out to the barn, how they groom, if they use hoof dressing. The list is actually endless.


----------



## palogal

sarahfromsc said:


> Actually you seem to care way to much how others ride, what they do with their horse(s), how often they go out to the barn, how they groom, if they use hoof dressing. The list is actually endless.


So much yes......If what you do is none of their business, why is what they do any of yours?
It sounds like you're jealous that they know how and what to do with their horses. If you spent some time truly watching and talking you would learn instead of standing in the corner pouting like a baby that they don't do things your way. 

There's a reason they don't do thing your way. They do things correctly and enjoy riding their horses. You fool around on the ground and gripe about everybody.


----------



## Greenmeadows

Have you tried Polartec? I have a jacket and pants from that company and love them during the winter! Polartec Fabrics | Impossible Made Possible


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> You have no way of knowing that, you truly don't, to know how someone is handling their composure you have to know them really well, have the ability to step into their skin.


I may not know but I can I pick up my observing.


----------



## Hoofpic

Greenmeadows said:


> Have you tried Polartec? I have a jacket and pants from that company and love them during the winter! Polartec Fabrics | Impossible Made Possible


Never heard of them. Thanks, looks like great clothing


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I may not know but I can I pick up my observing.



That makes no sense! If you don't know what you're observing, you aren't going to pick up anything. 


You need to stop judging others and watch what others do since it may be a technique you'll need someday. Every horse is an individual so what works with one may not work with another. You don't have the experience to read a horse to know what is effective.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> That makes no sense! If you don't know what you're observing, you aren't going to pick up anything.
> 
> 
> You need to stop judging others and watch what others do since it may be a technique you'll need someday. Every horse is an individual so what works with one may not work with another. You don't have the experience to read a horse to know what is effective.


Well let's just move on. I didn't mean to offend anyone.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Well let's just move on. I didn't mean to offend anyone.


Your thread so you can move on, but I would ask you to think about a few things..

This is a kind of safe place to learn, some of that is about horses and horse care, but also from the reactions you get, just maybe you will learn something that can help you out there in the real world, and help you keep some friendships, or at least some good feelings at your barn.

Try not to make assumptions and jump to conclusions about others, and their actions or words. I said before, their are many people at our barn, some ride everytime, some don't, no one worries, but we will ask "are you riding today" it is a pretty safe topic, they are not making judgements, more conversation.

What ever a person decides to do with their own horse is fine, so your decision to ride or not ride is great, they can ride and do the same thing every time, doesn't make either side 'better' or their horses happier.

In barn life you really have to learn to live and let live, and let people do their things, while you do yours, and just chat pleasantly to them when you cross paths.


----------



## Tazzie

I want to just note quick on the only going out to ride and that's it part...

Sometimes, the person doesn't have any choice in that matter. At all. I'm a mother of two and married. My husband is not that horsey, but he helps me A LOT. I can't ride if he doesn't come hang out with me since I'm NOT at a boarding barn and I can't make the working farm stop to make sure I'm alive. I try to ride after work. There are no lights, so my ride time is limited by how much daylight we have left. When I'm done, I have two VERY hungry kids who want us to go home and cook for them. This puts me in the position where I really only get to go out there, brush, tack up, ride, untack, brush and release my horse. Yet, she follows me around like a puppy dog, and treats are SUPER rare these days. She gets her face scratched, which is her biggest reward.

And then yesterday. I had a time limit put on my ride, for a super valid reason. My DH still went out to help me ride, but then we had to rush home. He had to pack, drive to work, load up his truck, and drive to North Carolina. There are currently over a million people without power. So no, I didn't get to stay around and love on my horse. I couldn't if I wanted to ride. I chose riding.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Your thread so you can move on, but I would ask you to think about a few things..
> 
> This is a kind of safe place to learn, some of that is about horses and horse care, but also from the reactions you get, just maybe you will learn something that can help you out there in the real world, and help you keep some friendships, or at least some good feelings at your barn.
> 
> Try not to make assumptions and jump to conclusions about others, and their actions or words. I said before, their are many people at our barn, some ride everytime, some don't, no one worries, but we will ask "are you riding today" it is a pretty safe topic, they are not making judgements, more conversation.
> 
> What ever a person decides to do with their own horse is fine, so your decision to ride or not ride is great, they can ride and do the same thing every time, doesn't make either side 'better' or their horses happier.
> 
> In barn life you really have to learn to live and let live, and let people do their things, while you do yours, and just chat pleasantly to them when you cross paths.


You are right, I shouldn't pay too much attention to others and what they do is none of my business.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I want to just note quick on the only going out to ride and that's it part...
> 
> Sometimes, the person doesn't have any choice in that matter. At all. I'm a mother of two and married. My husband is not that horsey, but he helps me A LOT. I can't ride if he doesn't come hang out with me since I'm NOT at a boarding barn and I can't make the working farm stop to make sure I'm alive. I try to ride after work. There are no lights, so my ride time is limited by how much daylight we have left. When I'm done, I have two VERY hungry kids who want us to go home and cook for them. This puts me in the position where I really only get to go out there, brush, tack up, ride, untack, brush and release my horse. Yet, she follows me around like a puppy dog, and treats are SUPER rare these days. She gets her face scratched, which is her biggest reward.
> 
> And then yesterday. I had a time limit put on my ride, for a super valid reason. My DH still went out to help me ride, but then we had to rush home. He had to pack, drive to work, load up his truck, and drive to North Carolina. There are currently over a million people without power. So no, I didn't get to stay around and love on my horse. I couldn't if I wanted to ride. I chose riding.


Good point. Just because I have all the time in the world to spend at the barn and I don't have kids or a family, doesn't mean that everyone else is in the same situation.


----------



## Hoofpic

Something is up with one of my friends, not sure what it is but something is bothering her. Her and I haven't texted at all in the past couple weeks and she seems very distant now. I bet it's the BO being away. I've noticed that 3 of my friends haven't been out nearly as much since the BO went into emerg.


----------



## Prairie

If you aren't seeing them as often since the BO has been ill, perhaps their schedules have changed and they are going to the barn when you aren't there. Certainly if they own horses, they'd want to spend some time with them.


----------



## egrogan

Why not just text her and check in?


----------



## Golden Horse

egrogan said:


> Why not just text her and check in?



Good idea, just text and ask how she is doing


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> If you aren't seeing them as often since the BO has been ill, perhaps their schedules have changed and they are going to the barn when you aren't there. Certainly if they own horses, they'd want to spend some time with them.


No they haven't been out at all lately. One friend goes everyday but this week she only went twice and the other hasn't been out in over a week and the other was only out twice this week.

The BO being away plus the snow is turning them away. I know that two of them won't come out if it snows or storms. 

But I'm not complaining, it's nice for a change being at the barn by yourself. Just you and the horses.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Why not just text her and check in?





Golden Horse said:


> Good idea, just text and ask how she is doing


I feel that something wasn't right after the one ride from last Sunday where my friend got really upset at her mare. She hasn't been the same since then. So I've just given her, her time and space and mind my own business.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I feel that something wasn't right after the one ride from last Sunday where my friend got really upset at her mare. She hasn't been the same since then. So I've just given her, her time and space and mind my own business.


Maybe she is wondering why you haven't been in touch....

You are great at "I feel" "I think" "In my opinion" often not based on any facts at all, you guess what people are thinking.

So either you just ignore it and let things fall apart or you send her a text, just checking how she is doing, it's up to you.


----------



## greentree

Even I (a non-texter) would text her, "U OK??" She can text you back, "MYOB", and then you will know, or she may confide in you, but to have a friend, you must BE a friend....
It is a two way street!


----------



## Golden Horse

greentree said:


> to have a friend, you must BE a friend....
> It is a two way street!


YES, nicely put


----------



## PoptartShop

It takes 2 seconds to send a quick 'how's it going? you ok?' text...you never know until you try.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Even I (a non-texter) would text her, "U OK??" She can text you back, "MYOB", and then you will know, or she may confide in you, but to have a friend, you must BE a friend....
> It is a two way street!


I could but I don't want her to think that I'm assuming that something is wrong, because I don't know 100% forsure if there is. 
Even though I'm almost certain something is bothering her. She's been very distant from me. I know the BO being away is one factor because her and my other friend always look forward to talking to him every time they come out. 

They kept telling me how it's not the same coming out to the barn without him there, (no it's not), but like I said, I won't let the BO being away and the spirits of the barn bring me down. I am keeping my head up. I went through this exact same thing at the previous barn when the BO had a heart attack and I won't let it happen to me again. This is part of life, you just can't let stuff like this emotionally effect you.


----------



## PoptartShop

Don't overthink it.
Just do it. Just say 'hey how's it going?' that doesn't indicate you think something's wrong...


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I could but I don't want her to think that I'm assuming that something is wrong, because I don't know 100% forsure if there is.
> Even though I'm almost certain something is bothering her. She's been very distant from me. I know the BO being away is one because her and my other friend always look forward to talking to him every time they come out.


But you ARE assuming something is wrong! There is a way for you to know "100%" if something is wrong or not...it's by reaching out. A quick, "Hey, haven't heard from you in awhile...you OK?" ...it can go a long way. That's what friends do. 

What do you have to lose by reaching out to a _friend?_ 

On the other hand...you can lose a lot by not reaching out.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> But you ARE assuming something is wrong! There is a way for you to know "100%" if something is wrong or not...it's by reaching out. A quick, "Hey, haven't heard from you in awhile...you OK?" ...it can go a long way. That's what friends do.
> 
> What do you have to lose by reaching out to a _friend?_
> 
> On the other hand...you can lose a lot by not reaching out.


Good point. I will think about it, but also you have to keep in mind that sometimes you need to mind your own business. 

The other week, one of my other friends asked me why my other friend and I don't go on a date together. I was a bit taken back by that suggestion lol. I know she is trying to help, but I told her flat out that we aren't each others type to be dating. Friends yes but nothing more. We are in much different stages in our lives with me being 35 and her being 65 and have very different personalities. 

So since then, I have I guess cooled it down a bit from texting my other friend because I didn't want to become too attached to her in terms of friends.


----------



## greentree

Well, at least you would not have to worry about her biologicalclock ticking!!!!


----------



## Hoofpic

And speaking of friends, the other one who I mentioned awhile back who went back to India and his mom passed away. Well, he got back in town about 6 weeks ago and a week after he got back, he texted me. I said hi and he wanted support so I gave it to him (just over text, we didn't meet), and after 4 or 5 text messages that day, that's it. He vanished once again, so I'm officially done with him. Haven't talked to him ever since and that was about a month ago. I gave him his support but like I said, he is no longer a friend to me and no longer a part of my life. If he wants more support down the road I have no problem giving it to him but no more reaching out to him, no more seeing him. 

The last time I saw him was like almost 3 months ago anyways and those 5 or 6 text messages that one day was the only time that we talked in that 3 months. He needs to learn that he can't just come to me when he needs something and then when I need something, he is nowhere to be seen or heard. That's not what a real friend is.

You know I've been down this exact same road before, yes with my ex! She eventually never wanted to hang out, do anything in person, she just wanted to text, and everyday, all day. She kept saying how we will do this and that but when I would make plans for us to do something, she would completely avoid it. So she was clearly using me as an aid for comfort. I will not be in a relationship if all our communication is done through text and we never see each other. So eventually I lost interest because she would always blow me off when I wanted to do something like go see her horses, and she would never keep her end of the agreement. I know that she went to go see her horses just about everyday. She would always send me pictures of them, tell me about them, talk about them, constantly everyday. But she wouldn't let me come along. And since we broke up, I am 1000x times better off without her in my life.


----------



## Golden Horse

Minding your own business is one thing, but being a friend means at least asking a question.

I know it is hard, but ignoring her will just mean you lose a friend. Asking a simple 'how are you, you've been quiet?' Isn't intruding, it is being friendly.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Good point. I will think about it, but also you have to keep in mind that sometimes you need to mind your own business.


Asking someone if they are OK is normal human conversation. It's not crossing any line.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Minding your own business is one thing, but being a friend means at least asking a question.
> 
> I know it is hard, but ignoring her will just mean you lose a friend. Asking a simple 'how are you, you've been quiet?' Isn't intruding, it is being friendly.


I guess you could say that with her being a female friend has me more reluctant in how much I text her. If this was a male friend, chances are I most likely would have already done it. 

I'm not saying her and I are going to fall in love with each other and get married, but just going by my past relationships with women (even if they're just friendships), the #1 thing that I have learned is to not become emotionally attached to them. That includes to not have them on my mind 24/7 and that they are just a friend, not someone who I wake up thinking of and going to bed thinking of. 

I know that ride from last weekend really upset my friend. I haven't seen her this bothered since our lesson with our trainer when my trainer verbally blasted her. I know after that one lesson, my friend didn't come out to the barn for a week and I just gave her, her time and space. Even though her and my trainer don't see eye to eye, I do believe that my trainer knows my friend well enough by now because she even said after that one lesson to not expect her out here for a good while because of what happened. 

When my friend came back to the barn after a week or what happened with my trainer and her, she was better but you could still tell that it really bothered her. If there is one thing that I have learned about her, it's that she doesn't let stuff go very easily, this applies to both her mare and people. She is a very emotional person and you have to be careful what you say to her or how you say it because she will take things personally. It's ironic because I am as blunt of a person as one can be and I tend to say things in the wrong way at times, so I have been fortunate so far to not say anything to her to hurt her feelings. 

I know it depends on the person, but if it was me and I got verbally lectured by my trainer, I would be right back out the very next day. Why? Because you need to keep your head up and pick up your feet and keep on going, that's how you become a stronger person. If I sat at home for a week and just dwelled on it, I won't accomplish anything from it.


----------



## Hoofpic

I was considering framing some of my photos (like the ones with the sunset a week ago), and printing them out on 12x18 prints. But the thing is I would want to have them at the barn and it's just too dark there in my stall.

However, I will be doing one larger print at Christmas and give it to my BO. I haven't taken the photo yet but I will be taking a photo of his oldest horse at the barn and one who might not be around for much longer. He's got arthritis in his back legs and he is 32 years old. He has trouble walking sometimes and over the past month he has had trouble getting up after laying down. 

He is one of the originals at the barn and one of the BO's favourites. The BO doesn't have any pictures of him, just when he was a baby. So when he passes, I want him to have him in his memory by hanging the photo on his wall in his house or in the viewing area. He didn't have this luxury when his other 28 year old gelding had to be put down early this year from breaking his leg in the field and it was incredibly tough on him. I don't want to see the BO go through that again.

Picking the frame is always the funnest part. Not sure if I will do the same for my trainer because big print + frame can get pricey. Barn friends I will get them chocolates. 

So instead I got a photoalbum, holds 400 photos (couldn't find larger). Look who's on the front. 


















I would say that this is one of my favourite photos to date. Of course having such a beautiful paint in the photo makes it that much better.


----------



## NavigatorsMom

The photo of the old horse for your barn owner is a great idea, I did the same thing for mine last Christmas and she really loved it. Nice photography!


----------



## Hoofpic

NavigatorsMom said:


> The photo of the old horse for your barn owner is a great idea, I did the same thing for mine last Christmas and she really loved it. Nice photography!


Thanks 

The BO already has enough stuff going on in his life so I don't want to see him go through the same thing when his last horse left the barn. 

I just texted my friend "I haven't see you much at the barn, hope you had a great Thanksgiving".

Just casual enough to check in without giving her the hint that I think something has been bothering her.


----------



## jenkat86

I think your BO would love that. I was fortunate enough to have some photos done with my late mare a few years ago. Now that I don't have her, I treasure those pictures. 

You are truly talented at photography. Specifically equine photography. A lot of people think that any photographer could photograph a horse, but that's just not the case. You really capture something that a lot of other's don't seem to be able to do. Good job. 

And good for you for finally reaching out to your friend.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I think your BO would love that. I was fortunate enough to have some photos done with my late mare a few years ago. Now that I don't have her, I treasure those pictures.


I think the BO will be very happy as well. I know when I gave him a photo of his favourite goat, he was happy. 

You can never have too many photos IMO. One of my sisters and her hubby constantly takes photos of their two kids just like I do with horses because they want to capture all the moments in their kids childhoods. Kids only grow up once and if I had kids, I would be doing the exact same thing.



> You are truly talented at photography. Specifically equine photography. A lot of people think that any photographer could photograph a horse, but that's just not the case. You really capture something that a lot of other's don't seem to be able to do. Good job.


Thanks, that means a lot. Though for me, taking photos of horses is still new to me, though I've been starting to get more comfortable this past summer. Before this year, I've never taken a single photo of a horse in my life. I think being around them, learning herd instincts, horse language and just their tendencies has really allowed me to take photos of horses from a deeper perspective as if I didn't know anything about horses. Because from what i've seen, all the equine photographers here are also horse owners. 

Taking photos of horses isn't easy, it's definitely a big change from taking photos of people (portraits was always my favourite), but there is nothing like it. 

I could take photos of other animals and other things but I know with me, if I don't have interest in the subject, I won't find the motivation to do it. I only like to shoot things that are my life and a part of my life. Unfortunately for me, there is not a lot - there's horses and family. That's it. 

There are a lot of photographers out there who can go take pictures of anything and everything. Not me. The subject has to mean something to me. And that is why photographer will always remain as a side casual hobby for me.

The number one thing that I've learned from taking photos of horses is that it's all about being in the right place at the right time. There is a lot of luck of the draw. For instance, I've been wanting to get photos of Fly and her mates playing, and I'm talking full on mode playing and running and chasing each other. 

I've seen it, they will rear up at each other and try to get each other going. Unfortunately, most of the time when this happens it's during breakfast and I'm not at the barn at that time.

And like horse behaviour, no two days are ever the same. You can spend an hour watching them in the field on one day and they will be playing, and then next day, spend two hours in the field and they are sleeping and just being lazy lol.



> And good for you for finally reaching out to your friend.


I feel better now. Hope she isn't upset about something regarding me. But something is forsure not right with her.


----------



## Hoofpic

Though I was really hesitant or second guessing, I'm glad that I picked up the 2nd and lighter down vest for the Fall and windy days. I wouldn't have paid regular price for it but with 40% off, it's a good deal. I am really liking it. 

I haven't bought a coat of any kind in 7+ years so I was really hesitant on spending a lot of money. Over the past few years I haven't really bought many new clothes. Just about all was Walmart or cheap stores like H&M or outlet stores lol. I guess you could say that I've become really cheap and stingy when it comes to buying clothes. I only buy if I absolutely need something.


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## TimWhit91

You really are a very good horse photographer. I have seen quite a few of your pictures that I would pay money for


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## paintedpastures

Think you have to have the eye & natural talent to take good pictures of animals. You have a good start but can refine your skills with some helpful hints from someone that has had some experience. Know there is a local photographer that gives workshops/ clinics in horse photography. My horse was actually a subject once for one of her clinics:wink: I think you would do well to pursue your photography


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Though I was really hesitant or second guessing, I'm glad that I picked up the 2nd and lighter down vest for the Fall and windy days. I wouldn't have paid regular price for it but with 40% off, it's a good deal. I am really liking it.


I have a couple of down vests and I love them. Especially for riding. I tend to get too hot if I'm riding in a coat, but I put a fleece pull over on with a vest and it keeps me really comfortable.


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## Hoofpic

TimWhit91 said:


> You really are a very good horse photographer. I have seen quite a few of your pictures that I would pay money for


Thanks Tim. What photos do you like the best? I would frame some of mine but I don't want them hanging in my house (just doesn't fit IMO), would be much better suited for at the barn but there is no point because my stall is too dark.


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## Hoofpic

paintedpastures said:


> Think you have to have the eye & natural talent to take good pictures of animals. You have a good start but can refine your skills with some helpful hints from someone that has had some experience. Know there is a local photographer that gives workshops/ clinics in horse photography. My horse was actually a subject once for one of her clinics:wink: I think you would do well to pursue your photography


This is the first time that I've taken pictures of any kind of animals. I came across a local lady who runs a equine photo taking course and she had one last month. I was interested until I saw the price of $300cdn per person, ya no thanks! That is almost a whole months board! I would love to take it and learn from a master in equine photography but I'm confident that if I do the dirty work myself, I can teach myself and get better. I've already self taught myself on photography in general, (I refused to pay for courses for something so easily accessible to learn), so there is no reason I can't self teach myself to become better in equine photography. I've known people and my former bro in law who spent thousands of dollars on photography courses and IMO, it's just not worth it.

Like I said too, I want some photos done of me and Fly together, and I've seen some really good equine photographers here locally. But for some reason I just don't want to pay money for it. I would do it myself but aside from selfies, you can't quite do it lol. It would be a lot of trial and error (more error) and very time consuming. And seeing me I wouldn't be happy with the shots. Taking really good portraits of yourself is hard enough (there are some people who can do it and it's a unique skill to have). Taking shots of you and your horse in action would be that much harder IMO.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic;9465530. I would do it myself but aside from selfies said:


> Tripod and timer


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## Prairie

I second the tripod and timer for taking "selfies"-- it's what my SIL, a professional photographer, uses for the group family photos and they come out great.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Hoofpic;9465530. I would do it myself but aside from selfies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tripod and timer
> 
> 
> 
> Not that easy. Still need to be able to adjust your focus point and make sure everything is framed like how you want it shot before hitting the shutter.
Click to expand...


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## Hoofpic

My friend replied back saying how she is doing okay and didnt come out because of the snow. She still doesnt seem right though, shes not very talkactive.

I might see her today though, Im at the barn now for a lesson.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> I second the tripod and timer for taking "selfies"-- it's what my SIL, a professional photographer, uses for the group family photos and they come out great.


I dont mind either except Im not really into selfies lol.
I will show examples of what kind of photos I would like taken. Definitely need a photographer for them.


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## Prairie

I was using "selfie" because my SIL is in them too.......she focuses the camera and gets the frame like she wants, sets all the options, then sets the timer and scoots into her position next to my youngest brother, her husband. It's really not that difficult once you get the steps.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> I was using "selfie" because my SIL is in them too.......she focuses the camera and gets the frame like she wants, sets all the options, then sets the timer and scoots into her position next to my youngest brother, her husband. It's really not that difficult once you get the steps.


Thanks for the feedback, but I want shots like this and it's not doable with a tripod and self timer. You absolutely need someone manning the camera especially in my arena since the lighting is so inconsistent there.


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## Hoofpic

Well I am set for next Wednesday. My trainer and I are going to take our lesson on the road. She will ride one of her horses and I will ride Fly. We won't be going down where I was last time but another road and path. I explained to her why I requested it and she said she is fine with that. I'm very much looking forward to it because I feel that my confidence will instantly go up knowing that I have a mentor right by my side. 

My trainer said that if I'm going to be riding on the road, I'm far better off riding with her than riding with others like my friends. Not that she has anything against my friends, but she even admits that my two friends are still very much beginners themselves and in a lot of ways behind me in terms of where we are with our horses, our riding etc, so as far as me benefiting, I am more limited with them than with her. Which is true IMO, just don't tell my friends that. 

She asked me today how that day went where I rode Fly on the road with my two friends. I told her about the bushes and me wanting to get Fly over the train tracks and past the herd of horses on the same block.

She said that I did the right thing in taking my friends decision in turning back home. Not that she didn't feel that I could have gotten Fly up and past the bushes but because she said that I'm still a beginner and sometimes you just don't want to push things. She said that I wouldn't be ready for something like that just yet and I would have to work up to it. She said that riding a horse past another unknown herd of horses is not always a good idea. The herd can come charging up to their fence and 100% gaurentee that Fly will react from seeing other horses. But this is what I wanted. I wanted to see how the herd reacts when they see another horse and when Fly sees a herd. So is riding a horse by a random herd of horses a bad idea?

She also said that if the two mares split up (Fly and my friends mare), and say one of the two or both had a freak out, then I most likely wouldn't know how to handle it, so it may not have been the decision that I wanted, but it was the safe decision in turning back with my friend.


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## Hoofpic

Well the BO's oldest guy wasn't easy to photograph this evening but I think I got it done. I'm not sure which to get printed for the BO for Christmas and then frame it. 

What do you guys think? I'm leaning towards both, simply because they each give completely different vibes.


















I am also going to get one of his dogs framed. He is blind and is getting old. Poor guy got ran over by a car a couple months ago. One of the people leaving the barn backed up into him! He is fine now.










Other photos from today.


----------



## Whinnie

You should believe in your trainer. She knows you, she knows your mare, she sees what is going on. She may tell you something you disagree with, but SHE is the expert.


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> You should believe in your trainer. She knows you, she knows your mare, she sees what is going on. She may tell you something you disagree with, but SHE is the expert.


I trust her. As much as she tells me that riding Fly past another herd of horses that we don't know isn't always a good idea, she is probably right.


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## greentree

I would say she is correct...you are still a long way from having the timing to correct Fly in a "situation". 

Sounds like it should be a good lesson.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I would say she is correct...you are still a long way from having the timing to correct Fly in a "situation".
> 
> Sounds like it should be a good lesson.


And it all goes back to "setting yourself up for success" so that day was my fault, I was trying to do too much, too soon. Like my trainer says, I am not ready to ride Fly past another herd just yet especially with another beginner rider. 

And she does have a point, when I ride with other beginner's I need to be careful in terms of how I rely on them because it can do more harm than good. Like she said, I would be far off riding with her.


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## greentree

Yeah, somebody has to be the leader.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Yeah, somebody has to be the leader.


Are you saying I'm not capable being a leader when riding her on the road?


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Are you saying I'm not capable being a leader when riding her on the road?


Not yet, because you don't have the experience for it, and really not everything is about leadership, out on the road it, to me, is more about partnership....

My mare is far more reactive and spooky than I have ever seen Fly be for you, it has taken a long time for me to be able to move from being a passenger in her spooks, to being able to kind of ride her through them, to at last seeing what she might spook at, and be able to distract her. 

From the video of you guys on the road, neither of you were doing anything to get your horses mind back on you, rather than concentrating on the 'scary trees' up ahead. Not so much leadership as just basic riding skills, but you have to be consistent, I used to let Fergie fixate, now I just never let her start to concentrate on stuff, I keep bringing her back to me....your trainer should be working with you to get this.


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## Hoofpic

Had my first real spook on Fly yesterday, good thing it was in a lesson. My trainer taught me how to handle it.

I still don't know what it was (no need to overthink it), but I think it was a shadow plus there was water coming down from the roof (little drops).

Did I handle it well? Now I know, after talking with the trainer, when they spook, steer them in the direction that they are spooking towards (in this case to our left), and not against it.

Will post the link shortly, it's not processed yet.


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## Hoofpic

Also, can anyone comment on my stirrups? I moved them up one. It took a few minutes to get used to them but I feel they are a good height.


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## Golden Horse

I watched about 3 minutes, about my limit for videos.

First, well done for staying up there, they were real spooks, good job.

Second, I think for stirrups are to short now, personally I would drop them again.

Next, the spooks obviously shook you up, and after that you started riding defensively, weight forward, perched and hunched, and that is a totally normal reaction, it is the body going into defensive mode. As a rider you have to work on overcoming it, when things go wrong you want your butt firmly planted in the saddle, shoulders back and down, hands low and keep riding. It takes a good many spooks to practice that though.

I also saw you patting a reassuring her after the spook, what you are telling her is that it was OK to be scared, that her reaction was OK. You need to be going "OI, knock it off...." or something similar.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Did I handle it well?


You stayed on...so I'd call that a success!

I disagree with Golden on this one...I think your stirrups looks better now. But I come from the cowhorse camp where we bring our stirrups up a little higher anyway.

Don't reassure her after a spook. Just make her work. Even though you are riding her, and she is "listening" to you...she's not really paying attention to you. Her mind is somewhere else. She DECIDED to spook. This ties into Golden's earlier response to being a "leader." Get their mind on you, and keep it on you. She gave you a good one second window where she stopped before she bolted. That's the window to spur them, or turn them...something to get their mind on you and deflect "the monster." THAT window takes a long time to recognize though. At your stage right now, normal human reaction (which your's was) will almost always take over.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Not yet, because you don't have the experience for it, and really not everything is about leadership, out on the road it, to me, is more about partnership....
> 
> My mare is far more reactive and spooky than I have ever seen Fly be for you, it has taken a long time for me to be able to move from being a passenger in her spooks, to being able to kind of ride her through them, to at last seeing what she might spook at, and be able to distract her.
> 
> From the video of you guys on the road, neither of you were doing anything to get your horses mind back on you, rather than concentrating on the 'scary trees' up ahead. Not so much leadership as just basic riding skills, but you have to be consistent, I used to let Fergie fixate, now I just never let her start to concentrate on stuff, I keep bringing her back to me....your trainer should be working with you to get this.


That is true, not everything is about leadership. I don't have the experience for some things yet when riding Fly. So overall it was the best decision to turn back home that day.

How do YOU usually bring Fergie's attention back to you? I know my trainer has taught me to tickle the reins, even do a circle if I have to, but I'm open to adding other ways.

I'm not making excuses or trying to blame my friend on that ride but I will admit, having her with us didn't help Fly and I. My friend having a completely opposite view on many things on riding and horsemanship clashes with mine. In terms of using body language to communicate with her two mares, she is better than my other friends, but she's still not there yet (and the BO agrees as well as he feels she is too light on her mares at times). 

Remember, she always brings up a horse's age as a factor, whether they are a mare or not and stuff like full moons, windy days, seasonal changes, being in heat etc. I don't have that mindset anymore. It was bringing me down and I completely got rid of it for good.

That is why my trainer told me yesterday that I would benefit a lot more riding with her than with others at the barn. Because if a situation comes up while riding on the road, do you think I can go to my friends for advice? I could but it's not the wisest decision. Chances are my friends won't know how to handle it but my trainer will, so this is why she suggested I ride with her if I want to maximize my learning. Ride with my trainer so that I get that experience and extra knowledge in knowing how to handle Fly in certain situations. Remember, I think the most important and critical factor here is that my trainer and I have the same mindset. I have boughten into her way of communicating with horses, riding them etc. So because of this, I would no doubt in my mind benefit a lot more riding with her than with my friends. 

Nothing against my friends, and they probably wouldn't want to hear this, but it's the truth. I'm just not sure if they are in my picture right now for riding with in terms of my learning. Like it's been mentioned on here already, they might be harming Fly and I more than benefiting us. 

So I think you could pretty much say that I will be having lessons on the road with my trainer on occasion for now on.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> How do YOU usually bring Fergie's attention back to you? I know my trainer has taught me to tickle the reins, even do a circle if I have to, but I'm open to adding other ways.


If we are just standing, either with me on her or next to her, I just put pressure on the side away from the distraction, until she bends and drops her head, and stops gawking.

If I was riding her down that side, I would have my outside rein in quite firm contact to keep her straight and heading in the right direction, I would have the inside hand asking for a bend so she is focused away from the problem area. I would have my inside leg on, and on the girth to hold her middle straight, and be pushing her on with my seat.

Now I'm sure that you are a braver rider than me, so you will be able to do all this quickly, but it has taken a very long time for me and Fergie to stop spooking at the 'A' end of our arena


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I watched about 3 minutes, about my limit for videos.
> 
> First, well done for staying up there, they were real spooks, good job.
> 
> Second, I think for stirrups are to short now, personally I would drop them again.
> 
> Next, the spooks obviously shook you up, and after that you started riding defensively, weight forward, perched and hunched, and that is a totally normal reaction, it is the body going into defensive mode. As a rider you have to work on overcoming it, when things go wrong you want your butt firmly planted in the saddle, shoulders back and down, hands low and keep riding. It takes a good many spooks to practice that though.
> 
> I also saw you patting a reassuring her after the spook, what you are telling her is that it was OK to be scared, that her reaction was OK. You need to be going "OI, knock it off...." or something similar.


The first spook forsure made me a bit nervous because I didnt know if she was going to bolt or what. 

The pat was from what my trainer told me. She said to pat her after we rode through at a steady pace and she was calm. I think her reasoning behind it was to tell Fly that, that is what I wanted.

Im glad I got it under my belt and the next time she spooks I will be better in handling it and more confident.

I will always remember what my trainer told me, always keep the hands down no materr what.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> The pat was from what my trainer told me. She said to pat her after we rode through at a steady pace and she was calm. I think her reasoning behind it was to tell Fly that, that is what I wanted.


It looked like you patted her on the far side of the arena after her second spook, but maybe I didn't see things right. that is the bit I wondered about.


----------



## greentree

I thought the same thing...that to the horse, it would seem like she was rewarded for spooking....

You did a good job staying with her. 

I agree with Golden about the stirrups, and I think it is time to start sitting the trot....you are still double bouncing, and she looks pretty smooth, not like you HAVE to post.


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## Hoofpic

I forgot to mention that the BO is doing dramatically better. I went to go visit him for a quick visit last night with one of my friends. She asked me and I was hesistant, not because I didn't want to see him but because I 'm not as close to him as my friend is and I don't want to be intruding.

My trainer happened to be there and they were chatting so my friend and I only stayed for 5mins, she dropped some fruit off for him and some light weights and a squeeze ball for his hand because he has been losing weight and muscle mass he says. 

He is in a different room now and has been going for walks just inside the hospital daily. He has much more energy and most important looks happier! 

He really misses home and being around the animals. Which is to be expected, he's been around horses everyday for the past many many years so of course he will miss them. 

The bad news is that he won't be home for sometime (hard to say how long but I'm guessing October is unlikely, probably looking more in November). 
He doesn't mind being in the hospital because he's accepted that he needs to be there to get treated and the reward will be worth it. He just gets lonely. 
So the fact that he has accepted that he needed medical attention is the most important.

My friend said that when he gets home, he is going to need homecare. And chances of him feeding everyday of the week, every week of the year are probably slim to none. He will most likely still do what he is doing but at a lesser workload. So that means that his barn helpers and the trainer and even his daughter is going to have to pick up the slack so that he has more time to relax and take it easy.

because as much as he loves horses and cares for every single one of them on his property, a 72 year old man (especially one who can't walk!), simply cannot be outside in the summer or winter on his gator for 14-18 hours a day caring for the horses. That is just too long. And this is why one of my friends is so upset at my trainer and the BO's barn helpers and his daughter. Because she feels that they need to pick up the slack and step up and help him out some more.

Trust me, I would love nothing more than to step up and offer to fill this void. If the BO needs another helper, I can be that person. I did it at the previous barn.

Would I love to feed every now and then? Heck ya! I will even do it on foot, I dont need the gator. I just get so much enjoyment from feeding.

The reason why the BO won't be home for sometime is because he hasn't been to the doctor for many many years and they staff there are taking care of his other health concerns, like his walking brace. They are building him a completely new one. They also have him going to Physio while he is in hospital.

It's worth it because when he gets home he will feel better than he's ever had in a long time. Give him a new walking brace, treat any concerns or injuries from the past that hasn't been dealt with and he will be in the best shape in years.

One of his dogs really miss him, he's really sad Poor guy. And his favourite cat misses him too and I'm sure the goats as well.


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## Prairie

"a 72 year old man (especially one who can't walk!), simply cannot be outside in the summer or winter on his gator for 14-18 hours a day caring for the horses. That is just too long."


Don't assume it's age that's limiting his abilities to care for the horses. There are many 75+ year olds down here that put in 14-18 hour days farming and ranching!


Adjust you stirrups so the bottom of the stirrup is even with the bottom of your boot---you have long legs so need that extra length to keep them in the correct position and not moving around. However, if you're going to ride Western, ask your trainer about learning to sit the trot, which is the traditional way to ride western. You are double bouncing still plus still bumping Fly in the mouth since you need to work on elastic elbows. 


Good job staying on Fly when she spooked.


----------



## natisha

I like where your stirrups are now. Before you tended to point your toe down. The shorter stirrups are allowing you to drop your weight into your heels better.

Is Fly's saddle a bit too forward? It seems there is a lot of real estate behind your saddle for such a small horse.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> You stayed on...so I'd call that a success!
> 
> I disagree with Golden on this one...I think your stirrups looks better now. But I come from the cowhorse camp where we bring our stirrups up a little higher anyway.
> 
> Don't reassure her after a spook. Just make her work. Even though you are riding her, and she is "listening" to you...she's not really paying attention to you. Her mind is somewhere else. She DECIDED to spook. This ties into Golden's earlier response to being a "leader." Get their mind on you, and keep it on you. She gave you a good one second window where she stopped before she bolted. That's the window to spur them, or turn them...something to get their mind on you and deflect "the monster." THAT window takes a long time to recognize though. At your stage right now, normal human reaction (which your's was) will almost always take over.



My trainer initially thought my stirrups to be too high but after the lesson she said it's not bad. I found though with higher stirrups, it's harder to keep straight back, is that normal?

The reason why I didn't steer or guide her to a different area the second time was because I was hoping to have her be okay in keep going in the direction of what's spooking her (in this case the wall).


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> If we are just standing, either with me on her or next to her, I just put pressure on the side away from the distraction, until she bends and drops her head, and stops gawking.
> 
> If I was riding her down that side, I would have my outside rein in quite firm contact to keep her straight and heading in the right direction, I would have the inside hand asking for a bend so she is focused away from the problem area. I would have my inside leg on, and on the girth to hold her middle straight, and be pushing her on with my seat.
> 
> Now I'm sure that you are a braver rider than me, so you will be able to do all this quickly, but it has taken a very long time for me and Fergie to stop spooking at the 'A' end of our arena


Thanks. Plus using a crop should work as well right?

When I rode her down that wall, I did the same (I know you can't quite see it in the video), over the past month my trainer has taught me how to bend Fly and when I ride her along the wall, I keep my inside leg on her, while the inside rein tickles a bit and the outside rein is firm. I know my trainer is really big now on not just getting Fly to keep along the wall, but to have her head bent a bit towards the inside so her attention is on me.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I thought the same thing...that to the horse, it would seem like she was rewarded for spooking....
> 
> You did a good job staying with her.
> 
> I agree with Golden about the stirrups, and I think it is time to start sitting the trot....you are still double bouncing, and she looks pretty smooth, not like you HAVE to post.


I do sit the trot but only when my trainer asks. She mostly has me posting in our lessons, not sure why but I'm pretty much just doing as she requests.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> "a 72 year old man (especially one who can't walk!), simply cannot be outside in the summer or winter on his gator for 14-18 hours a day caring for the horses. That is just too long."


I am not underestimating what the BO can do, I just think that by helping him out more right now, it would go a long ways for him. He already does a lot. At the previous barn, even though the previous BO was around the same age, he didn't do nearly as much. He spent his days sitting in the house watching TV all day. Then I fed all the horses every night, 7 days a week for 4 months.

When I was there, I was spending more time than him outside on his own property and that just never felt right to me. 



> Adjust you stirrups so the bottom of the stirrup is even with the bottom of your boot---you have long legs so need that extra length to keep them in the correct position and not moving around. However, if you're going to ride Western, ask your trainer about learning to sit the trot, which is the traditional way to ride western. You are double bouncing still plus still bumping Fly in the mouth since you need to work on elastic elbows.
> 
> That's what I did, with my feet out of the stirrups, the heal of my foot is about the height of my stirrups. They might be a bit higher now, but not by much. I mean I probably go back down one on each side but I'm not sure if I would want to.
> 
> 
> 
> Good job staying on Fly when she spooked.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I like where your stirrups are now. Before you tended to point your toe down. The shorter stirrups are allowing you to drop your weight into your heels better.


This and plus the half chaps really help add some grip. Once I got the half chaps, I noticed an immediate difference in my ability to keep my heels down. I am able to put my weight into them a lot easier now. 



> Is Fly's saddle a bit too forward? It seems there is a lot of real estate behind your saddle for such a small horse.


This is what I've been wondering as well lately. I know when I put her pad on, I have it so that it covers her withers (at least up until the highest point on her withers). I wouldn't mind finding out if I am saddling her too far forward.

Is it harder or easier on a horse being ridden that far forward?


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## greentree

Harder. The sasddle should always be in the correct spot... It loks too far forward to me, too.
It could be running the gullet up on her withers, and making her sore, which could be causing the mare glare upon saddling.


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## Golden Horse

Add to that the fact that your weight is often to far forward, she may indeed be getting sore. I think we need to see a couple of pics of how you have her saddle now..or better yet ask your trainer to check it out. have a look at this

How to position the saddle on your horse: Proper Placement


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## sarahfromsc

With my Arab, to bring his attention back to me if something is on the right that he wants to fixate on, I tickle the left rein and use left leg to side pass him into the object on the right he is worried about. And of course if an object on the left is causing him issues, I use right rein/right leg.

When they are trained well to your leg/rein aids, it is amazing how the horse will listen to you versus being worried about outside stimuli. Those seemingly useless 20 meter circles are done for a reason....lolol

Good job on staying with Fly!


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Harder. The sasddle should always be in the correct spot... It loks too far forward to me, too.
> It could be running the gullet up on her withers, and making her sore, which could be causing the mare glare upon saddling.


Oh I see. She hasn't given me the mare glare the past couple times riding but I know what you mean. I am going to get my massager/saddle fitter out ASAP.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Add to that the fact that your weight is often to far forward, she may indeed be getting sore. I think we need to see a couple of pics of how you have her saddle now..or better yet ask your trainer to check it out. have a look at this
> 
> How to position the saddle on your horse: Proper Placement


I asked my trainer about it when I first starting riding Fly and she said it wasn't too far forward. But if it's too far forward than doesn't that increase the risk of her getting sore?

Her pad is a diamon contour. If I move her pad back, how do I get the pad to reshape itself in its new position? Because right now her pad is like a sculpture lol, it's molded to where I put it on her.

Tomorrow I am going to saddle her up and post pics for you guys, then you guys can have an exact idea where I put her saddle.


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## greentree

You really do not need the saddle fitter massage person! Learning about taking care of it yourself will be FAR more beneficial!


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## Golden Horse

sarahfromsc said:


> Those seemingly useless 20 meter circles are done for a reason....lolol


Funny that, that arena work has a goal, and a point, who knew ;-)


----------



## sarahfromsc

Golden Horse said:


> Funny that, that arena work has a goal, and a point, who knew ;-)


Many seem not to get that.

Go figure.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> With my Arab, to bring his attention back to me if something is on the right that he wants to fixate on, I tickle the left rein and use left leg to side pass him into the object on the right he is worried about. And of course if an object on the left is causing him issues, I use right rein/right leg.
> 
> When they are trained well to your leg/rein aids, it is amazing how the horse will listen to you versus being worried about outside stimuli. Those seemingly useless 20 meter circles are done for a reason....lolol
> 
> Good job on staying with Fly!


Thanks. I have noticed (and my trainer has said as well) that Fly is much more responsive when I tickle the reins. I don't have to tickle nearly as much or as strong as before.

Now I see the reason for doing 20m circles.


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## sarahfromsc

For example in the video you posted of Fly shying away from the wall, I would have tickled or tightened the inside rein and used inside leg to keep her on the wall versus letting her circle in and away from the wall. But that comes with time in the saddle, LESSONS, listening to a good trainer, knowing how your horse feels prior to a shy, and developing your feel and timing.

Takes a long time, and many, many 20 meter circles.

It is good to see the improvement, hoofpic. I have been hard on you in the best, so I don't give compliments unless deserved, so take that as a compliment.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> For example in the video you posted of Fly shying away from the wall, I would have tickled or tightened the inside rein and used inside leg to keep her on the wall versus letting her circle in and away from the wall. But that comes with time in the saddle, LESSONS, listening to a good trainer, knowing how your horse feels prior to a shy, and developing your feel and timing.
> 
> Takes a long time, and many, many 20 meter circles.
> 
> It is good to see the improvement, hoofpic. I have been hard on you in the best, so I don't give compliments unless deserved, so take that as a compliment.


Thanks for the compliment, it means a lot to me. The first time going in, where she spooked for the first time, I was giving inside leg and tightening up the outside rein but she stopped and then I stopped, when I know I should have keep the leg on her all along.

I did the same thing the second time around (when she spooked for the second time), but after that, walking her past that spot and then eventually trotting her past it, I gave her inside leg again.

Actually I'm wrong, I said that this was the first time that Fly spooked with me on her, it's actually the second occurrence. The first time was actually when I was riding her past the mini donkeys outside for the first time and she went up a bit, then all of a sudden spooked and did the exact same thing EXCEPT this time my hands were up and my BO was nearby and told me "hands down, hands down". So in yesterdays spook, I remembered and since the BO has told me that, I have made it a habit to keep those hands down all the time no matter if they spook or not.


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## sarahfromsc

Not the outside rein...inside rein and inside leg. What you are doing is bending her body (what the 20 meter circle is teaching Fly and you) or pushing her body into the outside rein. You want her body to comply with your leg aid and rein aid. You need to ride Fly from in the inside leg to the outside rein.


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## Prairie

Golden Horse said:


> Funny that, that arena work has a goal, and a point, who knew ;-)



Slowly raises hand since I'm one who much prefers to be out on the trails instead of doing arena work and 20 meter circle. I do recognize the benefit of the arena initially, but still feel that there are very few things I can't practice out on the trail as well as I can in an arena.


As for my comment on the 72 yo men being able to do chores, Hoofpic, you lumped all 72+ men in that category which is totally wrong. Just because one person can't do something due to age doesn't mean all people can't!


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Not the outside rein...inside rein and inside leg. What you are doing is bending her body (what the 20 meter circle is teaching Fly and you) or pushing her body into the outside rein. You want her body to comply with your leg aid and rein aid. You need to ride Fly from in the inside leg to the outside rein.


Yes which is what my trainer taught me to do as well. But sometimes Fly will try to go far out and my trainer said to either use the crop and tap her on her shoulder so that she doesn't drift out, or just give her a kick with my outside leg.


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## PoptartShop

The pictures are beautiful!


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## Golden Horse

Prairie said:


> Slowly raises hand since I'm one who much prefers to be out on the trails instead of doing arena work and 20 meter circle. I do recognize the benefit of the arena initially, but still feel that there are very few things I can't practice out on the trail as well as I can in an arena.


And each to their own Prairie, if you are comfortable working on everything on the trail that's just fine, and full kudos to anyone who can do that. My point was that there are those who mock arena work as being worthless, and it isn't, especially with this bad mix of young horse and very novice rider, doing things in the safety of an arena is good. Big difference as Hoopic has already found out, in taking a nice long trail ride on an experienced horse, and trying to ride his mare out and about



Hoofpic said:


> Yes which is what my trainer taught me to do as well. But sometimes Fly will try to go far out and my trainer said to either use the crop and tap her on her shoulder so that she doesn't drift out, or just give her a kick with* my outside leg.*


Why OUTSIDE leg...did you read what Sarah said, INSIDE leg.....I don't want to confuse you further, but if you are trying to keep her straight along the wall, and there is something spooky, you need INSIDE leg, to keep her straight. I agree with her as well you need inside bend, but I also, with Fergie need a good contact on outside rein....LOL it is a juggling act, when it falls into place it's great.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Slowly raises hand since I'm one who much prefers to be out on the trails instead of doing arena work and 20 meter circle. I do recognize the benefit of the arena initially, but still feel that there are very few things I can't practice out on the trail as well as I can in an arena.


I think just about everything that you work on and learn in the arena can be applied outside on the trail.



> As for my comment on the 72 yo men being able to do chores, Hoofpic, you lumped all 72+ men in that category which is totally wrong. Just because one person can't do something due to age doesn't mean all people can't!


That wasnt my intention.


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## sarahfromsc

sarahfromsc said:


> Not the outside rein...inside rein and inside leg. What you are doing is bending her body (what the 20 meter circle is teaching Fly and you) or pushing her body into the outside rein. You want her body to comply with your leg aid and rein aid. You need to ride Fly from in the inside leg to the outside rein.


Inside leg to outside rein. Sorry for the 'typo'!


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## Golden Horse

sarahfromsc said:


> Inside leg to outside rein. Sorry for the 'typo'!


And my world start to spin on the correct axis again:grin:


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## sarahfromsc

Golden Horse said:


> And my world start to spin on the correct axis again:grin:


:loveshower:

I couldn't believe I typed that!


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## Hoofpic

Something definitely is not right with my friend. But its none of my business so I wont say anything more to her.


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## Golden Horse

sarahfromsc said:


> :loveshower:
> 
> I couldn't believe I typed that!


Nor could I!

Save​


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Something definitely is not right with my friend. But its none of my business so I wont say anything more to her.


But that isn't being friendly, it is when things aren't right that you should reach out. Even if it's just, "sorry that things don't seem to be going well, if you need anything just ask, I'm here for you if you need me."


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## sarahfromsc

Golden Horse said:


> But that isn't being friendly, it is when things aren't right that you should reach out. Even if it's just, "sorry that things don't seem to be going well, if you need anything just ask, I'm here for you if you need me."


Wanted to like this post again.


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## egrogan

^^^^Yes, that is very good advice!!


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something definitely is not right with my friend. But its none of my business so I wont say anything more to her.
> 
> 
> 
> But that isn't being friendly, it is when things aren't right that you should reach out. Even if it's just, "sorry that things don't seem to be going well, if you need anything just ask, I'm here for you if you need me."
Click to expand...

But I alteady reached out to her on Tuesday. I dont want to be a pest.


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## greentree

If she is your friend, then it IS your business. If she is an acquaintance, then maybe not...


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## Rainaisabelle

How many friends have you had? Just because you reached out once doesn't mean you just stop trying. Ask if you can do anything for them? If they need to catch up for a coffee? It doesn't mean you have to completely bug them but just let them know you're there if they need you to be.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> How many friends have you had? Just because you reached out once doesn't mean you just stop trying. Ask if you can do anything for them? If they need to catch up for a coffee? It doesn't mean you have to completely bug them but just let them know you're there if they need you to be.


I have 3 friends at the barn and another one who comes to ride with my trainer every now and then but she is out for sometime because she dislocated her elbow about 7 weeks ago.

The thing is, I don't even know forsure if there is something wrong. I'm certain there is, but again I don't want to be making assumptions. For all I know, she could just be really busy. But I know the BO not being there is affecting her. I just didn't think it would affect her this much. Yes it sucks that he is not here, but we go to the barn for our horse, not just the BO and company.

All I know is that I've been making the most of it and while everyone wants to not come out because the BO isn't here, I get extra alone time and more arena usage.


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## Hoofpic

I have my massage therapist coming out the week after next. She will also assess Fly's saddle and see how it currently fits her. I have no doubt that her form would have changed a bit from 5-6 months ago when I bought the saddle and had it fitted on her. 

Here is today me saddling her up for our ride. This is exactly where I always put the pad and saddle. Too far forward?


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## Golden Horse

Yes it looks too far forward to me, push it further back. I also like to make sure that the pad is pulled well up into the gullet like this










Proper placing


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Yes it looks too far forward to me, push it further back. I also like to make sure that the pad is pulled well up into the gullet like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proper placing


Okay thanks. How far back do you think I need to push it? The pad is obviously molded and shaped in the spot where it is right now. Will it re-contour itself in the new spot?


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## greentree

Surely, the pad was not contoured to your horse when it was new....

Put the saddle on without the pad and follow the directions. Take a picture, if you need to, so you remember.


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## Hoofpic

You know how I mentioned how one of my friends has her 3 year old colt with one of my trainers geldings that is constantly testing you and can be quite rude and will get in your space if you allow it? And that my friend has trouble every time she goes inside their field to handle her colt. She simply is unable to fend off the other two and keep them away. They will be all over her like bees on a honeycomb because they know her as the treat lady. My trainers gelding and my friends colt are best friends and are double trouble when together because the colt feeds off and clones my trainers gelding. 

Well over the past week, their water trough has been malfunctioning so my trainer opened an extra gate so that their herd can roam into the area right next to Fly's herd and share their water trough.

My trainer said to be careful when taking Fly out because her gelding can be a nousense and then you have double the trouble when you factor my friends colt. I said not to worry about it, plus it gives me good practice in working on my body language. Well I haven't had any trouble with her gelding and his herd. The first day they came up to me and were wanting to all sniff Fly when I was taking her out but I immediately factored in my 15ft rule (no horse can get within 15ft of Fly when I'm handling her), I told them all to get lost and chased them all back before bringing her out of the gate. 

But my trainer's gelding is so persistent and he will test and test no matter what. This is where my friend has trouble because she will be in the herd feeding her boy a bucket of grain and she will have to repeat 7, 8, 9 times to him to stop or go away. The herd doesn't take her seriously. They just know her as the treat lady because she feeds them carrots and apples and watermelon and pears and grass and all these goodies that she brings everyday in her bucket. She doesn't amp up her body language so of course my trainers gelding is going to keep pushing her until she can't take it anymore. I mean it's hard watching her be in the herd because she gets so upset and so stressed out from just feeding her boy or taking him out. She gets worked up and it obviously isn't enjoyable for her. So now she will toss out double or triple the amounts of treats for my trainers gelding and the other gelding (my BO's) just to keep them away from her while she feeds her colt grain. 

I've been saying it all along to my friend (just as a suggestion), she would benefit greatly by carrying out her carrot stick or longe whip with her but she won't! I don't know why even have one if you're not ever going to use it. 

But I've noticed that I haven't had any trouble what so ever. One thing's forsure is that I will NOT let these boys think I'm a treat lady. I am not the same person as my friend nor do I have the same mentality. Yesterday, I was taking Fly out again and just as I opened the gate to walk her out and was closing it, my trainers gelding came rushing up thinking he can just come up and sniff her and I took a couple steps towards him, faced him and told him to get out and he did, but then a couple seconds later he tried creeping forward and then I chased him back and made myself as big as I could and told him to get out and off he goes like the wind. He didn't try it again.


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## Hoofpic

Which IMO throwing more treats out for the other horses in her colts field in an attempt to keep them away isn't going to fix the problem, only make it worse. Because what do they do once they finish eating them? They come right back to her and get in her space wanting more and more. 

What I'm getting at here is that I was a little bit surprised that my trainer asked me last week (just as a suggestion) to perhaps close off that extra gate first and isolate their herd before taking Fly out so I don't have to deal with them when taking her in and out of her field. My trainer knows that my one friend has serious difficulty handling the horses whenever she is in there and keeping them from getting in her space and sniffing her pockets. And I'm not saying that my trainer doesn't have confidence in me being able to keep that herd away when taking Fly out. But I just hope that she knows that I'm not anywhere close to the same person as any of my friends are in terms of body language. I know that she knows I'm very different from them, but I'm not sure if she realizes just how opposite I am from them. So even though yes I am still a beginner learning the ropes (and she very much still see's me as a beginner), I am not running into the same difficulties that my friends are. I know my trainer was just looking out for me.


----------



## Whinnie

^^^^I'm not understanding your point, here, on these two posts above.


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## natisha

Why not take the horse out to give grain? Your friend is intimidated by the horses milling around but does the one thing most apt to cause problems!

As for blocking off the others when removing a horse, it has nothing to do with experience level, it's the smart thing to do.
Body language won't help at all when they decide to bum rush you.


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## Golden Horse

Who feeds one horse grain in a herd, that is just asking for trouble.

Where did you come up with this 15' rule?


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## tinyliny

it is just out and out foolish to try and feed one horse a bucket of grain while it's out loose in a herd of horses. causes stress and danger for all.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Why not take the horse out to give grain? Your friend is intimidated by the horses milling around but does the one thing most apt to cause problems!
> 
> As for blocking off the others when removing a horse, it has nothing to do with experience level, it's the smart thing to do.
> Body language won't help at all when they decide to bum rush you.


I would take him out too to feed him grain but she has trouble even getting her colt out because the other boys are all over her wanting treats. They swarm her like a pack of wolves. Then her getting him back in is another story because she gets croweded and pushed right at the gate that she can barely even open it. Honestly its incredibly difficult to watch. There are so many safety concerns and shes already gotten pushed over twice. And the worst part is that she wears high heal shoes.

So now she just feeds him inside because she said its too much work. Plus she wont handle her colt or do anything when anyone like the trainer is here because she doesnt want them to see the chaos. So she only comes out later at nights when no one is here


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> it is just out and out foolish to try and feed one horse a bucket of grain while it's out loose in a herd of horses. causes stress and danger for all.


I don't think my friend is in a win win situation at all because she can barely handle her colt. As soon as he comes out, he steps all over her and immediately dives for grass and she cant get his head back up. By the time she gets him back in, shes exhausted and stressed out.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I don't think my friend is in a win win situation at all because she can barely handle her colt. As soon as he comes out, he steps all over her and immediately dives for grass and she cant get his head back up. By the time she gets him back in, shes exhausted and stressed out.



Another good example why green on green is a bad idea, she seemingly does not have enough experience to handle a colt, this sort of situation is WHY we always advise against this.


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## tinyliny

that's simply miserable for this woman. I feel for her. she is WAY over horsed. when you have a horse that is like that, and you aren't a match for that strength, it's a very stressful way of owning horses. I know a lot of people get like this, but won't consider selling and finding a better suited horse. but, as you know, having a nice horse that is a good fit for your personality is a JOY! this woman is living in hell with that horse. and likely isn't going to change her way of being. she'd be better off with an elderly gelding.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> But that isn't being friendly, it is when things aren't right that you should reach out. Even if it's just, "sorry that things don't seem to be going well, if you need anything just ask, I'm here for you if you need me."


Well I found out today what was going on with my friend as she happened to be out when I was there. It was not planned and we didn't talk prior. I figured something was bothering her and I was 100% correct.

Apparently what's bothering her is the fact that she knows she needs help with her mare but can't and will not use my trainer and she feels hopeless because she can't get any help where she is at right now. After the last lesson, my trainer flat out said to her that she is uncoachable and it really hurt my friend's feelings. So bad that she's still not over it emotionally.

Apparently my trainer sent out an email a couple days ago to all of her students and boarders (I didnt get anything but my friend did and she will forward it to me) and it basically provided an update on the current BO's status and available dates for the rest of this year to book lessons with her. According to my friend, she said that it said "everyone can book except [my friend's name], and when my friend read that, she once again had her feelings hurt by my trainer. 

My friend and my trainer already disliked each other enough, but it's obviously only gotten worse. That email obviously says that my trainer will flat out refuse to teach or work with my friend and her mare in any way. My friend has even asked one of the BO's daughters (who comes to teach the clinics) and she refused. She asked the BO's other daughter (who has one horse at the place and comes out occasionally, but now with the BO away she's been out everyday or two to help feed), and she said that she will help but she is so busy that her time and availability is very limited.

So my friend (doesn't want to) but is really considering moving to another barn because she feels that, that is her only option. This is really sad to hear if she does move. My other friend is really saddened as well (she has become good friends with her as well), and she is the longest boarder there. She has known the BO for over 10 years and has been going to this barn for riding lessons for over 10 years now. Her mare was born and bred there and this has been her home for the 11 years of her life. She has become family to Fly's herd and her mates will sorely miss her if she goes. 

Anything I can do to per-sway her to stay and work it out? I know she needs a trainer and she doesn't like the fact that she has to go off site to another barn to get riding lessons. 

This is really sad news.


----------



## Hoofpic

Continued on...

I think there is a way to convince my friend to stay and that moving and breaking off a 10+ year friendship with the BO isn't the best idea.

She flat out told me today that our last ride together (in her not being able to ride her mare down the driveway) was the tipping point for her. She has had it as her goal to be able to ride her mare on the road for the past 2 years and she says that she failed. I told her that she didn't fail, and that she is still working on it, nothing wrong with that. 

I offered to help her. I know I am a beginner but I am confident that i know what to do to help her. I told her that I will help drive her mare away from home (that's where she goes when being ridden) by putting pressure with a carrot stick so that she cannot go near home. Then it would be a good idea to have someone who could just help lead the mare (with my friend on her back) down the driveway. 

I saw it in a Parelli demonstation from March, where Pat was working with a horse who would always run for home. He basically stood at home (or the end of the arena that leads to home), and let the horse free and each time the horse would come to his end, he would make them work and move their feet by chasing him away. So he basically associated being at that end to work and eventually the horse was a lot less attached to wanting to go home, the horse was down at the other end. 

So it's eIther that or like my BO's daughter said today, connect one horse to another horse and have the one behind follow. Sorry I forgot what she said it was called, but I have seen this done before in clinics and a couple weeks ago when I went on the trail ride I actually had to have it done to my horse because he was refusing to go over the creek. So the guide came back and pulled my horse with his.

Another fear that i have is that one of my other friends might move if my other friend goes. They are very good friends and she said that she's had enough of the attitude from one of the young barn helpers and if she doesn't smarten up or if the BO is going to let her manipulate him and give attitude to everyone, then she is outta there. IIf my friend leaves, then it might entice her to go as well. It would be devastating if both left.

Anyways, my friend said that she is going to tour a barn tomorrow morning and will be out in the afternoon and will let me know how it went.


----------



## StephaniHren

Just read a bit of the beginning of this (very long) thread, plus ~15 pages at the end... definitely subbing, I think this is a really interesting journal and I'm excited to follow along! I'm never one to advocate for green + green, but that doesn't mean I it can't work out and it definitely makes for a good read. :grin:



Hoofpic said:


> Something definitely is not right with my friend. But its none of my business so I wont say anything more to her.


Okay, I read enough to know that you reached out to her a while back and got a pretty general response, and now you seem to think that you need to butt out of her business or she'll think you're a pest. I get that you don't want to irritate her, but I also feel like if I had a friend who was obviously having a hard time, I might make more of an effort. If you're not really invested in keeping her as a friend, that's fine, but if one of my barn buddies hadn't been out to the stable in a long while I'd probably either ask them directly if something's bothering them (instead of sending vague "Happy Thanksgiving" texts or maybe invite them out to go riding/groom horses/go tack shopping with me. Again, cool if you aren't that attached to her, but don't use the excuse of not wanting to bother her.



tinyliny said:


> that's simply miserable for this woman. I feel for her. she is WAY over horsed.


That was me at 16, and Tiny's 100% right. I know it seems easy to look at her situation from the outside and criticize her, but she really does deserve your compassion. Being over-horsed is the worst, and if she's anything like I was she probably already feels ashamed of herself and is really upset because she's stuck in a no-win situation. I struggled with my too-much-for-me-horse for four years before I called it quits, and I didn't come back to riding for five years because I felt like such a failure.



Hoofpic said:


> How do YOU usually bring Fergie's attention back to you?


I'll weigh in on this! If I sense my gelding's got his eye on something and is thinking about spooking, I get him working. I push him down into the bridle, frame him up, make him work on his extension or his transitions. Trotting is best for him right now, it makes him work the hardest and I'm the most confident at it. We might throw in a figure eight or a circle, but only if it doesn't allow him to avoid what he's got his eye on. You can bet if he's in frame, he doesn't have the capacity to think about spooking.

When he does catch me off guard and get a spook in, he usually spins and bolts. It's easier to sit a bolt if you're relaxed, you sort of just flow with the horse instead of bouncing right off, so I kind of melt into him and then yank him right around to face whatever's scared him. He can snort, blow, wiggle, whatever (though I'd prefer he holds still), but no more running! I let him get a good stare in, but then I expect him to walk over to the object, say hello, and then walk calmly past it.



Hoofpic said:


> That is why my trainer told me yesterday that I would benefit a lot more riding with her than with others at the barn. Because if a situation comes up while riding on the road, do you think I can go to my friends for advice? I could but it's not the wisest decision. Chances are my friends won't know how to handle it but my trainer will, so this is why she suggested I ride with her if I want to maximize my learning. Ride with my trainer so that I get that experience and extra knowledge in knowing how to handle Fly in certain situations.
> 
> I'm just not sure if they are in my picture right now for riding with in terms of my learning.


I don't have any advice here, I just want to say that this is really sad. I don't think owning a horse would be worth it for me if I didn't have the option of taking him out with my friends to have fun. Like, I know that having a horse is supposedly supposed to be its own reward, but the social aspect of spending time with people who share the same hobby as me is a _huge_ part of it for me. Mine's semi-green (mostly in the arena), but I'm confident that I can take him outside on my own or with less experienced friends and be safe. I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to have to turn down invitations to ride with people at my barn and to only ride my horse in new situations with my trainer around, and it sounds pretty soul-crushing.

Again, no advice, just feel bad for you. :icon_frown:


----------



## StephaniHren

Darn it, I knew I would post and then there would be an update on the friend situation! :-x:grin:



Hoofpic said:


> Apparently what's bothering her is the fact that she knows she needs help with her mare
> After the last lesson, my trainer flat out said to her that she is uncoachable and it really hurt my friend's feelings.
> Apparently my trainer sent out an email a couple days ago to all of her students and boarders
> According to my friend, she said that it said "everyone can book except [my friend's name]"


Your trainer sounds really unprofessional and I feel really, _really_ bad for your friend.



Hoofpic said:


> So my friend (doesn't want to) but is really considering moving to another barn because she feels that, that is her only option
> Anything I can do to per-sway her to stay and work it out? I know she needs a trainer and she doesn't like the fact that she has to go off site to another barn to get riding lessons.


Don't bother, you'll be doing her a huge disservice. If any trainer I was working with had the gal to insult and humiliate me during a lesson, I would be _furious_. I wouldn't be willing to stay at a barn like that either, and you shouldn't expect your friend to put up with it, even if you're happy with your trainer's services. Stay out of their feud, but don't trivialize your friend's feelings. A trainer should be someone you can listen to and trust, not someone who berates you and makes you feel like you're two feet tall.



Hoofpic said:


> I offered to help her. I know I am a beginner but I am confident that i know what to do to help her. I told her that I will help drive her mare away from home (that's where she goes when being ridden) by putting pressure with a carrot stick so that she cannot go near home.
> I saw it in a Parelli demonstation from March
> So it's eIther that or like my BO's daughter said today, connect one horse to another horse and have the one behind follow.


Do _not_ do this. You are not a professional, do not try to approach this situation. On top of that, fixing this one issue for her horse will not fix the root issue: she's over-horsed and she doesn't have trainer that she feels she can go to for advice and support. I know you want to help, but this is a really, really bad idea and not something for a beginner to tackle.



Hoofpic said:


> Another fear that i have is that one of my other friends might move if my other friend goes.
> If my friend leaves, then it might entice her to go as well. It would be devastating if both left.


I know it's hard, but people have to do what's best for them and their animals. You shouldn't want your friends to stay in situations that make them feel miserable just because you would be sad if they left.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Another good example why green on green is a bad idea, she seemingly does not have enough experience to handle a colt, this sort of situation is WHY we always advise against this.


I agree. 

My friend and her (just turned) 3 yr old colt are green + green. Fly and I are green + green, but I have a completely different approach than her on our journeys. I have been doing everything I possibly can to get my knowledge up to where it needs to be. 

Factor in that her colt hasn't been broken in yet, she hasn't ridden in over 20 years and she's only rode 3 or 4 times, makes it that much more difficult for her.

I know that both the BO and my trainer are well aware of my friend's situation (green + green, but with an unbroke horse here), and are wondering how my friend is going to go about things here in terms of her starting to ride and her getting her colt broke. The thing is that this boy needs more groundwork and she needs a trainer not just for him but her to learn from. But she won't get a trainer because she can't afford one (even if it's just one lesson every 2 or 3 weeks). Plus she believes they don't need one.

So the more days that pass, the more my friend lets this boy get away with anything and everything and the more work and stress it's going to be to fix them. 

But my friend doesn't see it that way. She truly believes that he is 100% ready to be broken in and has matured and he sees her as his leader and he loves her with all his heart. He comes up to her every time when she pulls up to the barn. Yes he does. But he does it because he knows he is getting grain, grass and treats and buckets of fruits. Not because he sees you as his leader. That is why all the horses in his herd come rushing up to her when they see her because they know her as the treat lady and they won't keep off of her until they get all the treats that she has on her. It is terrible, the horses are literally mugging her.

She told me that she feels he has really come along and her goal is for her to be riding him at our barn this winter.

Listen I try to keep my nose out of other people's businesses but when her and I chat at the barn while she is feeding her boy, it's incredibly difficult to watch because I see so much wrong and so many safety risks. I just look away and try to ignore it as if I didn't see it. Everything from her talking to him in a baby voice, attaching human emotions, her letting them horses mug her, it's just a recipe for disaster.

I know my trainer sees it the same way. She knows that my friend is just known as a treat lady to her colt because that's all she does with him. She comes out to feed him grain, carrots, apples, etc and graze him right outside his gate. That's it. She doesn't bring him into the barn to brush or groom him because she said that he is not okay with being tied right now. She said that he has been tied no more than 3 or 4 times in his life and no more than 5mins each time.

She used to bring him in the barn, put him in a stall to brush him but this boy kept jumping the stall door and apparently one of the BO's helpers gave her **** and really laid it out on her after she saw her boy jump the door with her mare just 15-20ft away. She was not happy.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Apparently my trainer sent out an email a couple days ago to all of her students and boarders (I didnt get anything but my friend did and she will forward it to me) and it basically provided an update on the current BO's status and available dates for the rest of this year to book lessons with her. According to my friend, she said that it said "everyone can book except [my friend's name], and when my friend read that, she once again had her feelings hurt by my trainer.
> 
> My friend and my trainer already disliked each other enough, but it's obviously only gotten worse. That email obviously says that my trainer will flat out refuse to teach or work with my friend and her mare in any way. My friend has even asked one of the BO's daughters (who comes to teach the clinics) and she refused. She asked the BO's other daughter (who has one horse at the place and comes out occasionally, but now with the BO away she's been out everyday or two to help feed), and she said that she will help but she is so busy that her time and availability is very limited.


Ok, so the email did not go to everyone, because you didn't get it, and have you read it yet? IF and IF it says on a public email that she refuses to work with your friend, well that is very unprofessional, and I would be considering my own relationship with such a trainer. My trainer is also a friend of mine, but when it comes to issues with other students she rarely shares info with me or anyone else.

IF and IF it's true, there must also be a good reason for this, from one side or the other, it's sad either way, because she very obviously needs help.



Hoofpic said:


> I offered to help her. I know I am a beginner but I am confident that i know what to do to help her. I told her that I will help drive her mare away from home (that's where she goes when being ridden) by putting pressure with a carrot stick so that she cannot go near home. Then it would be a good idea to have someone who could just help lead the mare (with my friend on her back) down the driveway.
> 
> I saw it in a Parelli demonstation from March, where Pat was working with a horse who would always run for home. He basically stood at home (or the end of the arena that leads to home), and let the horse free and each time the horse would come to his end, he would make them work and move their feet by chasing him away. So he basically associated being at that end to work and eventually the horse was a lot less attached to wanting to go home, the horse was down at the other end.


I think you have false confidence, you have reached the stage of your journey where you believe that you can do things that you in truth can't. I saw a lot of the Olympic Dressage, doesn't mean I can reproduce any of the moves. Watching these displays it is easy to think you can go home and reproduce the same thing, if that was the case then no one would need to go to clinics any more, because we would have solved all our issues. What you see being done in clinics is the result of years of practice, and much skill, confidence and most importantly TIMING. 

You are doing well in your own journey, but don't start thinking you are a trainer, sometimes it does not pay to get involved in someone elses horse problem.


----------



## sarahfromsc

golden horse said:


> hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> apparently my trainer sent out an email a couple days ago to all of her students and boarders (i didnt get anything but my friend did and she will forward it to me) and it basically provided an update on the current bo's status and available dates for the rest of this year to book lessons with her. According to my friend, she said that it said "everyone can book except [my friend's name], and when my friend read that, she once again had her feelings hurt by my trainer.
> 
> My friend and my trainer already disliked each other enough, but it's obviously only gotten worse. That email obviously says that my trainer will flat out refuse to teach or work with my friend and her mare in any way. My friend has even asked one of the bo's daughters (who comes to teach the clinics) and she refused. She asked the bo's other daughter (who has one horse at the place and comes out occasionally, but now with the bo away she's been out everyday or two to help feed), and she said that she will help but she is so busy that her time and availability is very limited.
> 
> 
> 
> ok, so the email did not go to everyone, because you didn't get it, and have you read it yet? If and if it says on a public email that she refuses to work with your friend, well that is very unprofessional, and i would be considering my own relationship with such a trainer. My trainer is also a friend of mine, but when it comes to issues with other students she rarely shares info with me or anyone else.
> 
> If and if it's true, there must also be a good reason for this, from one side or the other, it's sad either way, because she very obviously needs help.
> 
> 
> 
> hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> i offered to help her. I know i am a beginner but i am confident that i know what to do to help her. I told her that i will help drive her mare away from home (that's where she goes when being ridden) by putting pressure with a carrot stick so that she cannot go near home. Then it would be a good idea to have someone who could just help lead the mare (with my friend on her back) down the driveway.
> 
> I saw it in a parelli demonstation from march, where pat was working with a horse who would always run for home. He basically stood at home (or the end of the arena that leads to home), and let the horse free and each time the horse would come to his end, he would make them work and move their feet by chasing him away. So he basically associated being at that end to work and eventually the horse was a lot less attached to wanting to go home, the horse was down at the other end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i think you have false confidence, you have reached the stage of your journey where you believe that you can do things that you in truth can't. I saw a lot of the olympic dressage, doesn't mean i can reproduce any of the moves. Watching these displays it is easy to think you can go home and reproduce the same thing, if that was the case then no one would need to go to clinics any more, because we would have solved all our issues. What you see being done in clinics is the result of years of practice, and much skill, confidence and most importantly timing.
> 
> You are doing well in your own journey, but don't start thinking you are a trainer, sometimes it does not pay to get involved in someone elses horse problem.
Click to expand...

like like like like


----------



## greentree

I am afraid that I do not understand everyone's need to have thier hand held constantly. I could not bear to have lessons with your trainer, because she never stops talking.shrieking. I am more like the horse...shut up and let me figure it out on my own, or at least be quiet so that I can think. 

She is capabke of training her own self, she just needs to spend time doing it.
Your friend should be thankful, imo.


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## Rainaisabelle

Realistically you have no business interfering with your friends horse. Leave it alone before you end up in hospital or something worse.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Ok, so the email did not go to everyone, because you didn't get it, and have you read it yet? IF and IF it says on a public email that she refuses to work with your friend, well that is very unprofessional, and I would be considering my own relationship with such a trainer. My trainer is also a friend of mine, but when it comes to issues with other students she rarely shares info with me or anyone else
> 
> IF and IF it's true, there must also be a good reason for this, from one side or the other, it's sad either way, because she very obviously needs help.


The email didn't go to everyone no. Did my friend read wrong or did she purposely make it up trying to make my trainer look like a bad person? I just got it forwarded from my friend and I read it twice and there is absolute NO MENTION in it anywhere stating that my friend can't book lessons. Her name isn't even in the email. But yet my friend said there is.

So I'm not sure what to think anymore. My trainers email was 100% completely professional, so there is no need to think different of her or look down on her. But I don't know why my friend would make it up saying that she was blatantly called out in it in which she wasn't. So perhaps my friend needs to cool it a bit.



> I think you have false confidence, you have reached the stage of your journey where you believe that you can do things that you in truth can't. I saw a lot of the Olympic Dressage, doesn't mean I can reproduce any of the moves. Watching these displays it is easy to think you can go home and reproduce the same thing, if that was the case then no one would need to go to clinics any more, because we would have solved all our issues. What you see being done in clinics is the result of years of practice, and much skill, confidence and most importantly TIMING.
> 
> You are doing well in your own journey, but don't start thinking you are a trainer, sometimes it does not pay to get involved in someone elses horse problem.


Good point but I will admit I do feel confident. But it might be just confidence from me wanting to try it out and help rather than knowing how to do what's needed.


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## Hoofpic

My trainer's email (excluding the update on the BO's status). I have no idea how my friend made out from it that she can't book lessons and she said it even had her name in it. I'm hoping to god that she didn't lie and make it up in an attempt to make my trainer look bad (because I do know that she really dislikes my trainer as a person), and that she just misread the email. So I will give her the benefit of the doubt. Tomorrow when I see my friend, I won't mention anything about the email unless she asks.

Anyways, I've been wanting to help out, is it safe to say that now is my time to offer to help with hay? Even if it's just going along picking up hay. Note, I did help unload hay bales from one of the truck loads 2 weeks ago. 



> "With things as they are right now I am spending lots of time out at the farm so there will be weekend-availability for lessons (not this weekend as I am away but the following two for sure I will be at the farm all-day both those days). I'll update the online booking so if you want to come out then just have a look there or shoot me a text.
> 
> Many people have offered to help with stuff around the farm. If the weather is good next week I will be going for more loads of hay which means help stacking them at the farm or riding along to Crossfield for pickup would be much appreciated. I wont know until later next week (Wed/Thurs) if the weather will cooperate but if you have time next weekend and would like a great arm workout just let me know (the bales are probably 60/65lbs each). "


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## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> The email didn't go to everyone no. Did my friend read wrong or did she purposely make it up trying to make my trainer look like a bad person? I just got it forwarded from my friend and I read it twice and there is absolute NO MENTION in it anywhere stating that my friend can't book lessons. Her name isn't even in the email. But yet my friend said there is.
> 
> So I'm not sure what to think anymore. My trainers email was 100% completely professional, so there is no need to think different of her or look down on her. But I don't know why my friend would make it up saying that she was blatantly called out in it in which she wasn't. So perhaps my friend needs to cool it a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point but I will admit I do feel confident. But it might be just confidence from me wanting to try it out and help rather than knowing how to do what's needed.


I have a few more years under my belt with horses than you do, and I still know jack poop. Now, I may screw up my own horse training him, but I certainly wouldn't want to take the chance of screwing up someone else's' horse with experimentation because I thought I was confident because I attended one PP clinic.


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## weeedlady

Hoofpic said:


> Anyways, I've been wanting to help out, is it safe to say that now is my time to offer to help with hay?


^^Yes.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Anyways, I've been wanting to help out, is it safe to say that now is my time to offer to help with hay? Even if it's just going along picking up hay. Note, I did help unload hay bales from one of the truck loads 2 weeks ago.



Absolutely offering would be good


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## Hoofpic

weedlady said:


> ^^Yes.





Golden Horse said:


> Absolutely offering would be good




Okay. But remember, I "technically" didn't receive that email so I wouldn't know about this.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I am afraid that I do not understand everyone's need to have thier hand held constantly. I could not bear to have lessons with your trainer, because she never stops talking.shrieking. I am more like the horse...shut up and let me figure it out on my own, or at least be quiet so that I can think.
> 
> She is capabke of training her own self, she just needs to spend time doing it.
> Your friend should be thankful, imo.


What's wrong with my trainer? I like how verbal she is. I love her attitude and her energy that she brings, but she's also hard on you when she needs to. Yes some may not like how hard she can be on her students, but she only does it because she wants to see us succeed. She's been hard on me many times (and still is), but I take it as is.

Even though she is the ONLY trainer that I have used so far for actual riding, she is better than all my previous ones when it comes to her attitude and how she makes me want to be that much better. I've had a trainer before who (right from day one), literally laughed at me and told me that he didn't believe in me because he didn't see me as an assertive enough to handle Fly. Mind you this was in the first 5 weeks of owning Fly (where I was treating Fly like a cute little puppy dog), but still he had no faith in me. He was a bad fit of a trainer for me but he still taught me how to roundpen Fly and we got things rolling from there.


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Okay. But remember, I "technically" didn't receive that email so I wouldn't know about this.


That's OK, moving hay is a time when all hands should be welcome, so just say that you heard that help was wanted with hay and you're available if needed.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> That's OK, moving hay is a time when all hands should be welcome, so just say that you heard that help was wanted with hay and you're available if needed.


Okay I will do that, thanks.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Realistically you have no business interfering with your friends horse. Leave it alone before you end up in hospital or something worse.


She asked if I could help, I'm not trying to interfere.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Just read a bit of the beginning of this (very long) thread, plus ~15 pages at the end... definitely subbing, I think this is a really interesting journal and I'm excited to follow along! I'm never one to advocate for green + green, but that doesn't mean I it can't work out and it definitely makes for a good read. :grin:


Thanks



> That was me at 16, and Tiny's 100% right. I know it seems easy to look at her situation from the outside and criticize her, but she really does deserve your compassion. Being over-horsed is the worst, and if she's anything like I was she probably already feels ashamed of herself and is really upset because she's stuck in a no-win situation. I struggled with my too-much-for-me-horse for four years before I called it quits, and I didn't come back to riding for five years because I felt like such a failure.


I feel that deep down my friend is in your example but she won't admit it. She feels that her colt is the perfect fit for her when really, there couldn't be a worse fit. She has an enormous hill to climb and she has yet to plan on how she is going to climb it. Even if she had a trainer out once every 3 weeks for the past year, she would be much further ahead today than she currently is. But all she's been doing for the past year is feeding her boy treats everyday and grazing him, that's it. A 3 year old should be worked and you're not going to get ahead with him if all you do is feed him treats. 

My trainer doesn't get it, my BO doesn't get it. She needs to do something to get more involved at the barn. Come when others are around, spend time with other boarders doing activities with them. But she won't come out when anyone else is around and there is obviously a reason for it. If she comes out and there are lots of other people there, she will go home and come back later in the day. She doesn't want anyone else to see her handle her boy. She said that she is okay with me and the BO being around. 



> I don't have any advice here, I just want to say that this is really sad. I don't think owning a horse would be worth it for me if I didn't have the option of taking him out with my friends to have fun. Like, I know that having a horse is supposedly supposed to be its own reward, but the social aspect of spending time with people who share the same hobby as me is a _huge_ part of it for me. Mine's semi-green (mostly in the arena), but I'm confident that I can take him outside on my own or with less experienced friends and be safe. I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to have to turn down invitations to ride with people at my barn and to only ride my horse in new situations with my trainer around, and it sounds pretty soul-crushing.


My trainer wasn't telling me not to ride with my friends but she has a point in that I would benefit more riding with her than with my friends because I don't know how to handle a lot of the outside situations (remember, I've never ridden on a trail with Fly before) and with my trainer there, she can point me in the right direction so that when I am out there alone I will know how to handle situations.


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## natisha

Regarding the E-mail: Personally I would say something along the lines of, " I didn't see your name mentioned. Was there another E-mail?" Maybe your friend is paranoid that people are against her when they really are not or not as much as she thinks.

Maybe another barn would be better for those not happy.


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## tinyliny

please don't try to 'pony' the horse down the driveway. 


sounds like the friend who is embarassed about her horse, and doesn't get along with the trainer, is someone who sees herself as the victim in life, but more than likely creates a lot of her own bad juju.

such persons can rarely be helped unless they are ready to learn. you know the old zen saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher appears" . not the other way around. she isn't ready, so the teacher isn't here. even though you are willing, and I think able to teach some things, you can't be the teacher, because she isn't ready. who knows when that will be.


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## tinyliny

please don't try to 'pony' the horse down the driveway. 


sounds like the friend who is embarassed about her horse, and doesn't get along with the trainer, is someone who sees herself as the victim in life, but more than likely creates a lot of her own bad juju.

such persons can rarely be helped unless they are ready to learn. you know the old zen saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher appears" . not the other way around. she isn't ready, so the teacher isn't here. even though you are willing, and I think able to teach some things, you can't be the teacher, because she isn't ready. who knows when that will be.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Regarding the E-mail: Personally I would say something along the lines of, " I didn't see your name mentioned. Was there another E-mail?" Maybe your friend is paranoid that people are against her when they really are not or not as much as she thinks.


I just have the feeling that my friend is letting her emotions get the best of her because from what I've seen my trainer has been professional with her. Yes she called her out in the last lesson a few months ago but she was just being honest. My trainer is extremely hard on me at times as well and I know she does it for a reason, not to be mean. 

Yes when my trainer told me friend that she is "uncoachable" that is really blunt, but she said that my friend needs to change, dig deep and find what's bothering her inside in order to move on. Because obviously my friend is lacking something inside that is really holding her back from doing what she needs to do with her mare. That something is assertiveness. I was in her exact same shoes many many months ago when I wasn't nearly as assertive as I needed to be with Fly. I was treating Fly like a big puppy dog and was attaching human emotions to her and talk to her in baby voices. I was "scared" of hurting her. 

My friend needs to find her inner strength and start using her body language physically as well as verbally. It's great that she communicates with her mare through verbally but horses don't communicate that way and until she does so, things aren't going to improve. And I think that's what she is failing to acknowledge. Like my BO says, it's never the horses fault, sometimes you need to look at yourself in the mirror. So my friend needs to change from within, but she is putting all the blame on her mare.

I think the biggest story is the fact that my BO's oldest daughter refused to work with my friend, I think that is very telling. 

I've seen it all with my own eyes as well, my friend can and is incredibly difficult to work with at times because she is stubborn. You tell her to do something and she won't do it. The trainer tells her to use her crop on her mare and she won't use it. The trainer tells her to kick and she won't do it. Why? Because she doesn't believe in physical reprimanding as she believes it's detrimental to horses. Well until she changes her mindset on this, she will have a difficult time moving on.



> Maybe another barn would be better for those not happy.


I don't know if I would miss her more (I'm sure I would), or if Fly and her mates would miss her mare more. I think it would take a long time for the herd to get over her leaving since they (minus Fly) have been together for 11 years (they were all born and breed there and in the same year). And I think the BO would really miss her as well because they have such a close friendship and my friend does a lot at the barn in terms of chores. So if she leaves, who is going to pick up the slack?


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## Hoofpic

My friend simply believes that my trainer is the problem when it's clearly not, it's her and her failing to realize that she needs to change within. She doesn't have to move barns at all and what might just happen is, if she moves, what happens if she runs into the same problem with the new trainer having difficulty working with her and can only do so much? Is she going to put the blame on the trainer and come back?

I know one thing's forsure. A persons attitude towards learning and accepting change is what makes it enjoyable for trainers to coach them. I've been told this by every trainer that I have seen and used. They all said that they love teaching me because of my attitude and how I just do as they say and I don't argue or bicker or banter (which my friend does). 

My trainer has known my friend for 10+ years ever since my friend started going there for lessons, so they obviously have quite the history and my trainer knows her far better than I do. She's obviously had many lessons with my trainer in the past, so I don't know what's changed. 

I really REALLY wish I could give my friend my honest opinion but I have a feeling that she wouldn't take it very well and would judge me as taking sides, which I'm not. Besides, I should mind my own business right?

If she can change within, then my trainer will work with her. My trainer never said that she will never work with her again, but my friend is seeing it that way. My trainer just said that she can only do so much and she needs to change as a person first, before she works with her more.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> please don't try to 'pony' the horse down the driveway.
> 
> 
> sounds like the friend who is embarassed about her horse, and doesn't get along with the trainer, is someone who sees herself as the victim in life, but more than likely creates a lot of her own bad juju.
> 
> such persons can rarely be helped unless they are ready to learn. you know the old zen saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher appears" . not the other way around. she isn't ready, so the teacher isn't here. even though you are willing, and I think able to teach some things, you can't be the teacher, because she isn't ready. who knows when that will be.


Exactly. One can't be taught until they are ready and open to it. Whether it's done through change or doing things that they don't particularly enjoy doing, they need to have the right attitude. 

My trainer said that she enjoys teaching me because I just do as she says. I don't argue, talk back or debate with her. I just do it. She gives me instructions and I comply each time. I had this exact same attitude with all my previous trainers and they all said that it makes it easy and pleasant for them to teach because I don't create any conflict. 

I wouldn't say that my friend is embarassed about her horse (that would be my other friend with the colt), but she puts all the blame on her mare. She truly believes that when she can't do something with her mare (ride her down the driveway, have her stand at the block, getting her past the mini donkeys, getting her past the noodles), that it's something with her mare, when it's not. Even my BO said it, she needs to change within.

My friend just can't let her emotions get the best of her and unfortunately she does. Not only is she letting her emotions get the best of her but she holds onto past experiences as grudges and it's only bringing her down mentally and not fair to her mare. Just from her and I talking, she is still holding onto a past bad experience from 2 years ago! Yes 2 years! She needs to let it go and move on! Forget that it ever happened. Be like a horse and live in the now, not in the past.

She's always nervous or tense or upset when she is riding her mare and when you are feeling any or all of those, it's going to greatly affect how your ride goes. But my friend is failing to acknowledge this.

Like in our last ride when she was trying to get her mare down the driveway, my friend was really upset, tense and she kept looking down at her mare when she needs to relax and look to where she wants to go.


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## Golden Horse

I have great sympathy with some of your friends issues, and do know that she, on her own, just can't reach inside and switch her 'brave' on. Yes she could make her own life easier by actually listening, but it is a very complex situation.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> I have great sympathy with some of your friends issues, and do know that she, on her own, just can't reach inside and switch her 'brave' on. Yes she could make her own life easier by actually listening, but it is a very complex situation.


But what can I say to her? I want to give her my honest opinion from what I've seen from her and will know she will be offended if I tell her. She will think I'm siding on my trainer.


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## Golden Horse

You can't say anything, not unless she directly asks you for help. It's a difficult one, but unless she finds the right person to help her she will be stuck, stuck in her brain and stuck in the cycle with her mare.

You are NOT the person to solve this one, it is very very complicated, knowing when to push a person and when to sympathise is a skill. There is also the small issue of a person knowing that they need to change, that is the first step.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> But what can I say to her? I want to give her my honest opinion from what I've seen from her and will know she will be offended if I tell her. She will think I'm siding on my trainer.



You answered your own question . Say nothing. Unless you want to lose her friendship.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> You can't say anything, not unless she directly asks you for help. It's a difficult one, but unless she finds the right person to help her she will be stuck, stuck in her brain and stuck in the cycle with her mare.
> 
> You are NOT the person to solve this one, it is very very complicated, knowing when to push a person and when to sympathise is a skill. There is also the small issue of a person knowing that they need to change, that is the first step.


The only person who IMO has the ability and knowledge to talk to my friend and get her to acknowledge that she needs to change is the BO, but even he is staying out of it. From what Ive been told he has tried endlessly over the years to try to get my friend to acknowledge the problem (as well as the trainer), but to no avail. He has told her that she needs to check herself in the mirror and to stop blaming her mare. Her mare is not a problem horse. Shes not a trouble horse. She just needs more firm direction. She needs a leader.

This was definitely not an overnight thing, its been going on for years. Factor in that my friend is the second longest boarder there, she has quite the history with my BO and trainer.

Ive sat in and audited some of my BOs lessons with my friend and its true, she just wont listen to what he tells her to do.

For instance, her mare wont stand for her at the block, but she knows how to. Shes just been taught that shes able to get away with it because my friend will quickly give up.

My BO tells my friend to use the crop on her and to be firm with her and demand that she stands. She wont do it. Instead she will walk a circle with her mare in hoping it would work. Circling doesnt fix the issue, it just makes it worse.

If my trainer saw me doing this with Fly, she would absolutely lay it on me.


----------



## Hoofpic

The thing is that my friend really needs to let what happened a few months ago in our lesson with my trainer go! Let it go! Forget about it! But if she's still holding onto experiences from two years ago, well then, I dont know what to say. You cant change and move on by holding onto the past.

Yes Fly used to always try to bite me and always charge into my space and would refuse to yield her shoulder away from me. Im sure you guys still remember how stressed out I was during this time. Remember that video I posted where Fly wouldnt yield her front end to me and tried to run me over? 

She doesnt anymore, and she yields her front end to me softly each and everytime. Am I flashing back to when she was? NO! Ive tossed it out of my mind many months ago.

I know that her feelings were hurt by my trainers comments but my trainer was just being honest.
She was not attacking her, which she claims that she was. I heard the entire conversation.

All my trainer said was that my friend needs to stop making excuses for her mare and that she is doing the best that she can to help her but she keeps refusing to do what she is telling her to do and its getting them nowhere.

She said it bluntly, that she is treating her horse like a baby and that if she wants a cute and cuddly animal to cuddle with then to get a stuffed animal.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> The only person who IMO has the ability and knowledge to talk to my friend and get her to acknowledge that she needs to change is the BO, but even he is staying out of it. From what Ive been told he has tried endlessly over the years to try to get my friend to acknowledge the problem (as well as the trainer), but to no avail.


Do you see the disconnect here, the BO obviously is NOT the key to it, because he has tried 'endlessly over the years' to change this.

There is a woman who has just come back to my trainer, she has been, to my knowledge, to 5 different people over the years, and has just come back to C, I was actually surprised that she took her back. She is looking for a magic wand to change things, doesn't realize that SHE needs to change.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only person who IMO has the ability and knowledge to talk to my friend and get her to acknowledge that she needs to change is the BO, but even he is staying out of it. From what Ive been told he has tried endlessly over the years to try to get my friend to acknowledge the problem (as well as the trainer), but to no avail.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see the disconnect here, the BO obviously is NOT the key to it, because he has tried 'endlessly over the years' to change this.
> 
> There is a woman who has just come back to my trainer, she has been, to my knowledge, to 5 different people over the years, and has just come back to C, I was actually surprised that she took her back. She is looking for a magic wand to change things, doesn't realize that SHE needs to change.
Click to expand...

That women sounds like my friend.

The disconnect is from my friend so no matter what trainer she uses,she is going to run into problems with trainers.

Not even my BO could change her, so that speaks volumes.

I saw her today at the barn and she sounded so in love with the barn she visited this morning. She kept saying how nice it is and how big the arena is and that everything there is superior to the barn now.

Well remember, how a barn looks isnt everything. Look at the previous barn that I was at, I learned the hard way. It was one of the nicest boarding facilities you will ever see, 2 arenas, a huge roundpen, 120 acres of pastures. But the fencing and overall care was terrible and I eventually was practically running the place for 2/3 of the week.

The place she viewed is also $100 a month cheaper than our barn now. Thats pretty significant. I also question whether her mare will get the same overall care and top grade hay that she currently is getting. I doubt it.

Plus she also has to factor in that she will need to switch farriers.

She said that she will give it some time first so see if things get worse at the barn shes at now or better.

I immediately thought to myself, how is going to get better if you dont change? The problem is inside you, its not the trainer. Stop trying to make the trainer look like a super mean and bad person because she doesnt deserve it.

Im just getting a little restless of hearing her try to talk to friends and I as if my trainer is a bad person. I get it, you dont like her, she hurt your feelings. But she needs to look herself in the mirror and dig deep to understand why the BO has been saying the exact same thing, the problem is her not the trainer.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I immediately thought to myself, how is going to get better if you dont change? The problem is inside you, its not the trainer. Stop trying to make the trainer look like a super mean and bad person because she doesnt deserve it.


Trouble is no one can get her to see that until she is ready. C has been telling me all year that there is nothing wrong with Fergie, it's me. I kind of believed her, but it wasn't until we really got beyond it that I realized how much of it WAS me.


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## Whinnie

Why are you getting so worried and mentally involved in this? You have your own stuff to deal with, she doesn't want help, so relax. You need to let it go.


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## sarahfromsc

I second the 'let it go'. Ain't your monkey and it ain't your circus.


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I immediately thought to myself, how is going to get better if you dont change? The problem is inside you, its not the trainer. Stop trying to make the trainer look like a super mean and bad person because she doesnt deserve it.
> 
> 
> 
> Trouble is no one can get her to see that until she is ready. C has been telling me all year that there is nothing wrong with Fergie, it's me. I kind of believed her, but it wasn't until we really got beyond it that I realized how much of it WAS me.
Click to expand...

Overtime you realized that it was you, did it take long? When did you know it was you?

Im not counting on my friend reaching that point. She has had the same mindset for years even after many people telling her, it's her.

She needs to stop thinking that she is being victimized by my trainer. Would she rather have a trainer who isn't as blunt and doesn't speak the truth to help her, for the sake of not hurting her feelings?


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> Overtime you realized that it was you, did it take long? When did you know it was you?


Sometimes, it takes an event that shakes your confidence to reevaluate yourself. Mine got shaken recently when I asked Izzie to canter, and instead she let out a couple of MASSIVE bucks, then stopped and went straight up. Everyone said I was doing something, and I was. I was not only over preparing for the canter, but then blocking her. I stopped, and our canter departs returned to being flawless. But, I haven't gotten to have a lesson since.... end of June/beginning of July. Haven't been able to toss money that way lately.

But I agree. Not your circus, not your monkeys. You will not change her.

You just worry about you. Not the girl who can't control her colt and has no business owning. Not the girl who feels the trainer is singling her out. You. YOU have plenty on your plate to worry about. Just stop worrying about everyone around you. You will change nothing.

Go read a book. I don't mean this rudely at all, but even *I* will sit down with a book to expand my knowledge of my chosen discipline. There is a wealth of knowledge out there. Please worry about that instead of the two women who refuse to change how they do things.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Overtime you realized that it was you, did it take long? When did you know it was you?


Every time that you react with your brain, and listen to your trainer and do as they suggest, and your horse reacts as they say, you start to realize that if you change, your horse changes for the better.

Now for me I was coming from a start place of crippling fear following an accident 3 years ago, so I am well aware of the battle between my reactive and thinking sides, and I have worked hard to move on. I KNEW that I had issues and that I had to change, so I have worked hard this year with Fergie, and we are both different now.

Thing is, it wasn't until I listened and we worked through it that we changed it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> Why are you getting so worried and mentally involved in this? You have your own stuff to deal with, she doesn't want help, so relax. You need to let it go.


I don't mean to, it's just who I am in always wanting to help others and see them succeed.


----------



## edf

> Overtime you realized that it was you, did it take long? When did you know it was you?


to put my 2 cents in this discussion... it took me being humiliated that I could not get my horse to even turn to realize I was coming at my horse wrong. While I wasn't directly blaming her, in a way, I was indirectly blaming her. How? By thinking 'why doesn't she ride like Magic?' ( Magic was the horse I leased for about 1 year) I was getting frustrated when she didn't listen, and looking back, she was reacting by getting frustrated herself. It took me about 4-6 rides to realize I was the part of the equation that was wrong: I did not know how to communicate to turn to this horse. Now, she did test me, and it wasn't until I took the frustration out of the picture was I able to correct her.

Being a bit embarassed about riding for about 5 years and having to go back to basics 101: how to steer a horse, I stayed up late watching youtube video's when my fiance was asleep. I perched on my couch like I was riding and imitated the video's I watched.

Next ride, I tested out what I learned. Of course, i heard so many different opinions, but I tried them all a few times. Some didn't work. Some kinda worked. I played around until I got my horse to turn! I did it again- she turned again! I was smiling as if I just won an olympic metal, and all I did was 2 90 degree turns.

Zoe is in my bracket of being a horse I can control- but within that bracket- she is on the higher end. Had I not left my ego at home and admitted it was me and not the horse, riding her would have been a fight, and bad habits would have formed- both from the horse and myself. I had to remember Zoe is my dance partner ( key word: partner), and I wasn't dancing solo. She also isn't Magic, and never will be. She is her own horse, and I appreciate her for that.


But one thing does have me curious: her dislike of using crops. At first, I didnt like using crops at all- I still prefer to not use one if I don't have to ( not like anyone is like- YES! I get to use a crop...lol). It was not because I felt they hurt the horse- more so I feared using it wrong- not as in whipping too hard to make the horse bleed- more along the lines I didn't know when or how to use it. I started with what I call a shoulder slapper ( technical term I believe is a jumping bat/crop ) and had the one teenager tell me when to use it, so I understood when to use it AND why. Maybe her not liking to use one is because she doesn't understand how to use it and why to use it? 

I do agree this is her problem and not yours. Even if you did try to help her, until she realizes she has to change as well, nothing will change. Getting in the middle can create drama BUT if she does say something to you- tell her about your progression with Fly. You are where you are at with Fly because you learned that you need to become Fly's leader, and to do that, you had to earn Fly's respect. I would love it if one can earn a horses respect by treats and gentle petting, but we all know that doesn't work. Sometimes it takes tough love. I love my horse Zoe, but when she kicks, she gets hit. But perhaps if you find a way to tell her she needs to change through examples of how you had to change to be a better leader for Fly, she will get the message in a way that isn't pointing fingers. Point out your mistakes of how you feared hurting your horse, put human emotions into her, and explain how you had to change your way of thinking and doing things to suit the best interest of your horse, and in return, you have grown a better bond between yourself and Fly. ( The goal of doing it this way, she sees that hey, she isn't the only one who made mistakes, but changes cans till happen)

Side note: sorry I always tend to write novels when I respond...lol.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> Sometimes, it takes an event that shakes your confidence to reevaluate yourself. Mine got shaken recently when I asked Izzie to canter, and instead she let out a couple of MASSIVE bucks, then stopped and went straight up. Everyone said I was doing something, and I was. I was not only over preparing for the canter, but then blocking her. I stopped, and our canter departs returned to being flawless. But, I haven't gotten to have a lesson since.... end of June/beginning of July. Haven't been able to toss money that way lately.
> 
> But I agree. Not your circus, not your monkeys. You will not change her.
> 
> You just worry about you. Not the girl who can't control her colt and has no business owning. Not the girl who feels the trainer is singling her out. You. YOU have plenty on your plate to worry about. Just stop worrying about everyone around you. You will change nothing.
> 
> Go read a book. I don't mean this rudely at all, but even *I* will sit down with a book to expand my knowledge of my chosen discipline. There is a wealth of knowledge out there. Please worry about that instead of the two women who refuse to change how they do things.


I see. 

I know for me, there wasn't a specific one time that it hit me but more so multiple times over the course of many months. I was kept being told by you guys that I need to be more assertive and firm with Fly when the time calls for it and I need to find that extra gear where I step well outside of my comfort zone. A level where it's unlike me, but one that I'm only in for a few seconds at most. It has been a long process for me to find this level and get my assertiveness to this level, but the most important thing is that I reached it. I had to really dig deep within me and suck up the inner strength and convince myself that I needed to do this and that there are no other options. It's not a choice, but a need. I had to start with baby steps but once I got things rolling, I gained more confidence and made bigger strides. 

It's just difficult to see what happens at the barn at times, especially with my one friend who has the 3 year old colt. Now that is a disaster, pardon my language. It's harsh, but true. I'm not giving up on her and saying that she won't make it work between her and her boy, but the whole situation just doesn't look very promising mainly because she has no plan. She is utterly convinced that horses are like big puppy dogs, you give them treats and hugs and kisses and talk to them in a baby voice and they love you back.

I feel more bad for the colt because if she ever sells him, the new owner is going to have one helluva chore on his plate going back and fixing all the bad habits that he is allowed to get away with daily. He is just used to getting fed treats everyday and allowed to push his owner around like a rag doll. 

I could give her a lot of advice, but I don't. She is like my other friend, they both just don't have the same mindset as me when it comes to horsemanship and communicating with body language.


----------



## greentree

I have a friend (she is a real friend, not an aquaintance) who has many YeARS more driving experience than I, but still cannot get a horse to perform. She does not have the proper feel for how a driver needs to respond to the actions of the horse.

I am not constantly trying to FIX her, but just accept it as the way it is. Like a person who knows nothing about football, or poker....

You still, at this point, do not KNOW if you will actually be good at this sport....it is just the way it is!!

Quit worrying about things that cannot be changed.


----------



## Hoofpic

I will admit, the best decision that I (thanks to you guys convincing me) have made in the past 6 months was quit seeing my outside trainer. She was great, but I'm happier now without her there. I don't know what it is. Perhaps it's me no longer having to listen to her tell me to weigh myself because I am borderline too heavy for Fly. Or that Fly needs more groundwork and is not ready to be ridden. Or I no longer feel like I'm under the microscope when working with Fly.

She gave me some really great advice, but if I was still having her out, it would have been a disaster. I would still be doing groundwork with Fly and I wouldn't be riding her nearly as much, if at all. 

Do I miss talking to her? Yes and only because we did have some great conversations (but also some that caused me stress), and she was a great person to learn tips from. I just felt that she lacked a bit of confidence in me. Yes she really liked me as a person, but I don't think she truly saw me as a leader or a person who could be a leader for Fly mainly because she saw Fly as a horse lacking in groundwork and one who needs hours and hours on the ground. 

She would keep telling me, "Fly is a dominant right brained mare and she needs a strong leader". The thing when having lessons with her is that everything was so technical, everything had to be perfect. I felt micro managed and I felt that it held me back. Like if I'm lunging Fly, what difference does it make if I don't stand completely still and I move my feet? It makes no difference at all, but little stuff like this she made it judged on the fine line between right and wrong.

But once I stopped seeing her and I was on my own, that is when I found the extra strength and courage to make this work without a trainer. And of course watching all the clinics and horse shows really helped make things sink in for me.

If there is one thing that I have learned about me, it's that I feel a lot more free when I don't have a trainer watching me. I am more free, my confidence goes up, I'm not nervous, I just feel like a much stronger and different person.


----------



## greentree

Do not feel badly for the colt or new owner, if she sells him. It only takes one moment with a real leader to fix these problems.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Every time that you react with your brain, and listen to your trainer and do as they suggest, and your horse reacts as they say, you start to realize that if you change, your horse changes for the better.
> 
> Now for me I was coming from a start place of crippling fear following an accident 3 years ago, so I am well aware of the battle between my reactive and thinking sides, and I have worked hard to move on. I KNEW that I had issues and that I had to change, so I have worked hard this year with Fergie, and we are both different now.
> 
> Thing is, it wasn't until I listened and we worked through it that we changed it.


Thanks. Yes I agree, once your trainer tells you something, you listen and do as they say and you see the result from your horse, that's when it sinks in. I've had this too, probably a handful of times.

You could probably give my friend a lot of advice. She is pretty much in your shoes in the past where she can't let go of the past. Every single negative thing that happens, she just accumulates and keeps it in her memory forever. She will constantly bring it up with you as time goes on and it's annoying.

And that's why my BO is the person at the barn who knows her best and even he has given up on helping change her. He won't do it, my trainer won't and my BO's daughter won't. That is 3 people of very good horse knowledge and with a lot of experience that won't help her, I think that says it all.

I think the first thing with her is just that she needs to learn how to handle her emotions better and not let them get the best of her. You absolutely need to be emotionally stable when with a horse and tempers will get you nowhere. Coming to the barn all stressed out and getting on your horse isn't setting yourself up for success. But she doesn't see it. Even my BO has tried. He's told her to relax, calm down and if she is going to be tense, then don't ride. 

It's not about the quantity of attempts but quality.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Do not feel badly for the colt or new owner, if she sells him. It only takes one moment with a real leader to fix these problems.


Yes but he will be in for a serious wakeup call when he finds out that he can't get away with stuff on another person that he currently does with his current owner.

"Each time you handle your horse, you are teaching them something".

"It's 10 times harder to go back and break old habits than to train properly in the first place".

For each day that passes, his habits only get worse. I've heard so many stories of people who buy a horse, only to have to spend so much time fixing bad habits all because the previous owner didn't set boundaries and treated the horse like a dog. This is the exact same thing that is happening to this colt. He is getting ruined.

I know that my trainer handles him when he needs to get trimmed and even though I have yet to see how she handles him, she did tell me that she leads him with a crop. That's mainly because he doesn't lead very well at all as he is just used to diving for grass.

I've seen more than enough from my trainer to know how she handles horses and doesn't put up with anything. She will absolutely not tolerate any of my friend's colt's behaviour when she is handling him.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I don't mean to, it's just who I am in always wanting to help others and see them succeed.


You can't help people who don't want it. Forcing unwanted help on others looks a lot like being controlling.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> You could probably give my friend a lot of advice. She is pretty much in your shoes in the past where she can't let go of the past. Every single negative thing that happens, she just accumulates and keeps it in her memory forever. She will constantly bring it up with you as time goes on and it's annoying.


No, I probably couldn't, not unless she was ready and open to such advice. I will share my whole story honestly here in my own journal, in the hopes that maybe someone reads them at a time when they are ready, and it inspires people to try and fight through their issues. Being self aware is the first step, without that there is no progression. I would not give advice to a person who is still holding onto their belief that they are fine, it's everyone else. 



Hoofpic said:


> Yes but he will be in for a serious wakeup call when he finds out that he can't get away with stuff on another person that he currently does with his current owner.


Yup, and that is life, he will get that wake up call eventually, again, if the owner can't see an issue, then no one can help them fix it. It is only when someone reaches out for some help that you can offer it.


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I see.
> 
> I know for me, there wasn't a specific one time that it hit me but more so multiple times over the course of many months. I was kept being told by you guys that I need to be more assertive and firm with Fly when the time calls for it and I need to find that extra gear where I step well outside of my comfort zone. A level where it's unlike me, but one that I'm only in for a few seconds at most. It has been a long process for me to find this level and get my assertiveness to this level, but the most important thing is that I reached it. I had to really dig deep within me and suck up the inner strength and convince myself that I needed to do this and that there are no other options. It's not a choice, but a need. I had to start with baby steps but once I got things rolling, I gained more confidence and made bigger strides.
> 
> It's just difficult to see what happens at the barn at times, especially with my one friend who has the 3 year old colt. Now that is a disaster, pardon my language. It's harsh, but true. I'm not giving up on her and saying that she won't make it work between her and her boy, but the whole situation just doesn't look very promising mainly because she has no plan. She is utterly convinced that horses are like big puppy dogs, you give them treats and hugs and kisses and talk to them in a baby voice and they love you back.
> 
> I feel more bad for the colt because if she ever sells him, the new owner is going to have one helluva chore on his plate going back and fixing all the bad habits that he is allowed to get away with daily. He is just used to getting fed treats everyday and allowed to push his owner around like a rag doll.
> 
> I could give her a lot of advice, but I don't. She is like my other friend, they both just don't have the same mindset as me when it comes to horsemanship and communicating with body language.


My reply was just a recent one. I've had multiple revelations when I ride under my instructor. Some of the simplest things that I should know better. 

But...

STOP WORRYING ABOUT HER. NOT your circus, NOT your monkeys. Butt out. She has zero desire to learn. She has zero desire to believe it's her. STOP gossiping about her. Just stop. You will not change either of them. Complaining about them or their horses on here will solve their issues. I know you've had good luck with Fly, but that is not your place nor are you experienced enough to help them with their issues. They want to stay in la la land believing everyone is out to get them and they know best, let them stay there. There is nothing you can do. You've said repeatedly this isn't your place, you were going to stop talking about these people, etc. So do it. I know I'd be highly unimpressed if I were to hop onto a forum and I saw people talking about us. That person would no longer be my friend, and I'd be getting the heck out of dodge with my animals.

Just repeat. Not your circus, not your monkeys. There isn't a thing you can do, so quit trying and quit complaining.



greentree said:


> Do not feel badly for the colt or new owner, if she sells him. It only takes one moment with a real leader to fix these problems.


And don't you try to take him on, Hoofpic. This is not something you could handle. He will take a firm hand from an experienced horse person. But he could still be molded into a good horse citizen. I don't think he's entirely ruined. Has bad issues, yes. But it's not as though he has developed aggression toward humans. If she were to wise up and sell him, someone would take him on as a project. Either for themselves or a resale.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, but you keep saying you don't want to gossip, and then turn around and do exactly that. There is no reason to do so.


----------



## PoptartShop

Not your circus, not your monkeys...I say this all the time, again & again. 
You can't help people that don't want help- in any situation. People are going to do what they want to do, nothing you can do or say will stop them.
Let her find out on her own.


----------



## greentree

"The moment one definitely commits oneself,
Then Providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise occured. A whole stream of events issues from the decision which no one could have dreamed would have come thier way.
--W. H. Murray


----------



## greentree

"Walls are worn away a grain at a time,
And hearts are opened one feeling at a time."

"Susan and I were sitting in an ice cream parlor when the two couples next to us began to get loud. They were just having a goodtime, but I was feeling a bit inward and intruded on. I felt the need to go. I leaned over to Susan and asked if she wanted to leave. She, in her contentment, said, No, I am happy here.". Then, seeing the consternation on my face, she asked, Do you want to go?"

In that simple moment in a booth in an ice cream parlor, I realized that for much of my 49 years, I have tried to take care of my needs by indirectly projecting them on those around me and then acting as if I am taking care of the other person. As the ice cream was melting, I understood myself. I laughed, shook my head, felt embattassed, then sighed deeply, and importantly voiced the obvious, "Yes, I'd like to leave."

This indirect way of trying to get what I need by planting my feelings as needs to be attended to in those around mehas been a way to hide my vulnerability, whilestill managing to appear as a kind and other-centered person. I realize I am not alone in this malady. It is often so subtle and so close to our healthy way of relating to others that we seldom realize the manipulation and deciet involved.

Of course, this indirectness lives in us because somewhere along the way, we became convinced, often with good harsh reason, that to voice directly what we need is asking to be hurt. Yet I know of no other way to reverse this hiding of who we are than to catch ourselves humbly in each instance and to rise out of our privte cave, admitting the indirectness and saying what we feel and what we need as soon as possible.

Still, the energy wated in trying to quietly get others to behave in ways that will satisfy our needs remains a major source of anxiety and alienation. Rather than prevent us from being hurt, indirectness and dishonesy only heightenour isolation from what it means to be alive.

Underneath it all is the fundamental truth that as trees have leaves that are nicked and eaten, human beings have feelings thatate just worn by the act of living. We have a right to these. They are the evidence of the human seasons."

--Mark Nepo
@Hoofpic read this carefully.


----------



## Tazzie

Tazzie said:


> Complaining about them or their horses on here will solve their issues.


This is supposed to say "will *NOT* solve their issues."

I cannot believe I made that mistake. Complaining about people will never solve things.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> My reply was just a recent one. I've had multiple revelations when I ride under my instructor. Some of the simplest things that I should know better.
> 
> But...
> 
> STOP WORRYING ABOUT HER. NOT your circus, NOT your monkeys. Butt out. She has zero desire to learn. She has zero desire to believe it's her. STOP gossiping about her. Just stop. You will not change either of them. Complaining about them or their horses on here will solve their issues. I know you've had good luck with Fly, but that is not your place nor are you experienced enough to help them with their issues. They want to stay in la la land believing everyone is out to get them and they know best, let them stay there. There is nothing you can do. You've said repeatedly this isn't your place, you were going to stop talking about these people, etc. So do it. I know I'd be highly unimpressed if I were to hop onto a forum and I saw people talking about us. That person would no longer be my friend, and I'd be getting the heck out of dodge with my animals.
> 
> Just repeat. Not your circus, not your monkeys. There isn't a thing you can do, so quit trying and quit complaining.
> 
> 
> 
> And don't you try to take him on, Hoofpic. This is not something you could handle. He will take a firm hand from an experienced horse person. But he could still be molded into a good horse citizen. I don't think he's entirely ruined. Has bad issues, yes. But it's not as though he has developed aggression toward humans. If she were to wise up and sell him, someone would take him on as a project. Either for themselves or a resale.
> 
> I'm sorry to be so harsh, but you keep saying you don't want to gossip, and then turn around and do exactly that. There is no reason to do so.


Okay I will stop talking about them. I'm not doing it to be mean or gossip, it's just concerning that's all about what I see. It's frustrating when you see the light but the others don't. It's just who I am as a person, I will go the extra distance to help them.

If this was in another topic in life, I would probably go out of my way to help them. But because it's horse related and I'm still a beginner and in learning mode, I won't.

With that being said, I have another friend (my 3rd friend) at the barn who does every now and then ask me on some tips. Like this past weekend we were talking and she asked me how I got Fly to stop pawing (because her youngest mare is a constant pawer). So I told her what I did to get rid of it. Fly used to paw her heart out every time I tied her at the old barn. If she couldn't see me, she would give me an angry whinny, telling me "come on lets get going!"

So I told her what I did with Fly to get rid of it. And the weekend before she asked me how I got Fly to stand at the block for me and I told her. 

The bad news is that she keeps bringing up age as a factor. Her mare is 6 (just 1 year older than Fly) and she keeps bringing up her being young and "immature" as a factor in why she paws and doesn't stand at the block. I just ignore it but I told her what I thought and that for me age isn't a factor, any horse at any age can be taught to do anything if they are shown the right direction and have had the exposure.


----------



## Golden Horse

Think about this one:

You didn't want to text your friend because it wasn't your business to interfere.

You want to jump in and try and fix issues that you in no way have the experience to work with.


You have it the wrong way around, be a supportive friend, do not try and be a horse trainer


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> No, I probably couldn't, not unless she was ready and open to such advice. I will share my whole story honestly here in my own journal, in the hopes that maybe someone reads them at a time when they are ready, and it inspires people to try and fight through their issues. Being self aware is the first step, without that there is no progression. I would not give advice to a person who is still holding onto their belief that they are fine, it's everyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, and that is life, he will get that wake up call eventually, again, if the owner can't see an issue, then no one can help them fix it. It is only when someone reaches out for some help that you can offer it.


I agree, one can't be helped unless they acknowledge that need help. Like I said many times, it's all about the person's attitude. The person's attitude will dictate how coach able that person is. Bad or pessimistic attitudes will get you nowhere in life.

If there is one thing that I've learned about myself in the past 10 years, it's that I don't do well being around pessimistic minded people, because they will eventually bring me down. I learned first hand from being in a long term relationship who I dated a girl who was a pure pessimist.


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## Tazzie

Golden Horse said:


> You have it the wrong way around, be a supportive friend, do not try and be a horse trainer





Golden Horse said:


> You have it the wrong way around, be a supportive friend, do not try and be a horse trainer





Golden Horse said:


> You have it the wrong way around, be a supportive friend, do not try and be a horse trainer





Golden Horse said:


> You have it the wrong way around, be a supportive friend, do not try and be a horse trainer


You need to keep reading this a few times. I, too, was surprised you'd rather jump in to help where you have very little depth in knowledge, but would rather sit back and see what happens with someone who is supposed to be a friend. A friend is supportive. A shoulder to cry on and vent to. These girls have not been asking for your help. That's great you were able to give tips to another barn friend. She asked because you had a problem and you solved it. You have not been asked to help with the pushy colt or the mare that won't walk down the driveway. None of your business. Both of those problems are for a trainer to deal with, not a beginner.

You are not a trainer. You have A LONG way to go until you could be considered like one. I've been riding over 15 years. I am NOT a trainer. I do NOT give advice to ANY of my friends unless they point blank ask me for help. Which yes, they have. Including my friend who IS a paid trainer.

But you have to stop. I know this is your journal, and I am very sorry if it comes of harsher than I meant. But you are not someone I'd ever want as a friend from seeing what you post here about people you do call your friends. A friend lifts the other person up, not belittles them for thinking differently. So what if they use age as a factor? Izzie still has moments that show how immature she can be. I correct and move on, but always taking into account that she IS young, she DOES have opinions, and I just need to remember not to try and rush for some higher glory. What little work you are doing with Fly is perfectly appropriate for her. The work we're getting into is highly taxing on the horse mentally and physically. You may not think of age as a factor, and your trainer may say that as well. But the expectations and the work you are doing is absolutely appropriate for a green, 5 year old horse. Stop shaming the people for contributing age as a factor. The only reason people here told you to quit doing so is you were letting her age be the reason she could walk all over you, which is NEVER good no matter the age.


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## Whinnie

Tazzie said:


> But you have to stop. I know this is your journal, and I am very sorry if it comes of harsher than I meant.* But you are not someone I'd ever want as a friend from seeing what you post here about people you do call your* *friends.* A friend lifts the other person up, not belittles them for thinking differently. So what if they use age as a factor? Izzie still has moments that show how immature she can be. I correct and move on, but always taking into account that she IS young, she DOES have opinions, and I just need to remember not to try and rush for some higher glory. What little work you are doing with Fly is perfectly appropriate for her. The work we're getting into is highly taxing on the horse mentally and physically. You may not think of age as a factor, and your trainer may say that as well. But the expectations and the work you are doing is absolutely appropriate for a green, 5 year old horse. Stop shaming the people for contributing age as a factor. The only reason people here told you to quit doing so is you were letting her age be the reason she could walk all over you, which is NEVER good no matter the age.


Amen. Well said.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> You need to keep reading this a few times. I, too, was surprised you'd rather jump in to help where you have very little depth in knowledge, but would rather sit back and see what happens with someone who is supposed to be a friend. A friend is supportive. A shoulder to cry on and vent to. These girls have not been asking for your help. That's great you were able to give tips to another barn friend. She asked because you had a problem and you solved it. You have not been asked to help with the pushy colt or the mare that won't walk down the driveway. None of your business. Both of those problems are for a trainer to deal with, not a beginner.
> 
> You are not a trainer. You have A LONG way to go until you could be considered like one. I've been riding over 15 years. I am NOT a trainer. I do NOT give advice to ANY of my friends unless they point blank ask me for help. Which yes, they have. Including my friend who IS a paid trainer.
> 
> But you have to stop. I know this is your journal, and I am very sorry if it comes of harsher than I meant. But you are not someone I'd ever want as a friend from seeing what you post here about people you do call your friends. A friend lifts the other person up, not belittles them for thinking differently. So what if they use age as a factor? Izzie still has moments that show how immature she can be. I correct and move on, but always taking into account that she IS young, she DOES have opinions, and I just need to remember not to try and rush for some higher glory. What little work you are doing with Fly is perfectly appropriate for her. The work we're getting into is highly taxing on the horse mentally and physically. You may not think of age as a factor, and your trainer may say that as well. But the expectations and the work you are doing is absolutely appropriate for a green, 5 year old horse. Stop shaming the people for contributing age as a factor. The only reason people here told you to quit doing so is you were letting her age be the reason she could walk all over you, which is NEVER good no matter the age.


I'm not trying to talk down on my friends, I'm just expressing my thoughts that's all. I know it may come across as me talking down on them, I'm not. I can and do make my friends feel better in person, but like we all said already, I can't do much in this situation. Online, you just don't get to feel the entire situation out, mainly because it's still not in person, and also I communicate differently online than in person mainly because one is written.

The reason why I don't like the age factor is because I do believe that any horse of any age can be taught anything to do or quit doing if they have the right exposure to it.


----------



## egrogan

@*Hoofpic* , I've got a different question for you- at some point in your journal, you built a "bridge" or maybe more like a teeter totter to practice walking Fly over. Can you please re-post how you constructed that (or just link back to the post where you describe it)? I would like to create a similar obstacle. Thanks!


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## sarahfromsc

Something to chew on. There are many people posting on this forum and rarely do I see anyone posting about friends all the time. An occasional rant or vent, especially about a spouse, but not pages on how our friends act, or are.

Just think on that.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I'm not trying to talk down on my friends, I'm just expressing my thoughts that's all. I know it may come across as me talking down on them, I'm not. I can and do make my friends feel better in person, but like we all said already, I can't do much in this situation. Online, you just don't get to feel the entire situation out, mainly because it's still not in person, and also I communicate differently online than in person mainly because one is written.
> 
> The reason why I don't like the age factor is because I do believe that any horse of any age can be taught anything to do or quit doing if they have the right exposure to it.



The issue becomes that what you post on the internet never disappears and anybody who knows how to do a search can find information you'd rather not be reminded of. You have talked down about all 3 of your so-called friends repeatedly in this journal. How do you think they'd feel if they ran across what you've written about them? Not only do you NOT possess the skills to know how to correct or retrain a horse, you seem to have not developed interpersonal skills-----Quit worry about what the others are doing and concentrate on yourself and what you should be doing!


FYI, age is always a factor when dealing with a living, breathing creature! However, it's not chronological age that matters, it the physical, emotion, and mental maturity or lack there of that needs to be considered. Not all horses are ready to begin under saddle work at 3 yo, and some are barely ready at age 4. Heck, for our rescued TWH gelding, even as a 5 and 6 yo, he was very difficult to keep focused because he was easily distracted by anything going on around him. 

A horse of any age CANNOT always be taught anything or to do something---every horse is individual so you have to work on his timeline, not yours!


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> @*Hoofpic* , I've got a different question for you- at some point in your journal, you built a "bridge" or maybe more like a teeter totter to practice walking Fly over. Can you please re-post how you constructed that (or just link back to the post where you describe it)? I would like to create a similar obstacle. Thanks!


Okay forsure. It was just a standard bridge, I want to build a teeter totter but not quite sure how to go about it.

All my friend and I did was take home a couple wood palletes from one of the day clinics that we attended a few months ago. Then I went to home depot and bought some sheets of plywood and had them cut them to my measurements there.

My friend nailed the boards down on top of each pallette.  she is much better than I am with the hammer and nails.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Something to chew on. There are many people posting on this forum and rarely do I see anyone posting about friends all the time. An occasional rant or vent, especially about a spouse, but not pages on how our friends act, or are.
> 
> Just think on that.


I won't talk about them anymore. At least not too indepth but casual general stuff I think is okay.


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## Whinnie

You can call it "expressing your opinion" or "helping" but that is NOT what it is. That is what everyone is trying to get across to you.


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## greentree

egrogan said:


> @*Hoofpic* , I've got a different question for you- at some point in your journal, you built a "bridge" or maybe more like a teeter totter to practice walking Fly over. Can you please re-post how you constructed that (or just link back to the post where you describe it)? I would like to create a similar obstacle. Thanks!


Next time I go to Long C, I will get some detailed pictures of their teeter totter for you!! They have a nice one...


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> You can call it "expressing your opinion" or "helping" but that is NOT what it is. That is what everyone is trying to get across to you.


I get it now and I'm sorry for coming across that way, it was not my intention. I am not one to gossip about others.


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## Hoofpic

I'm sorry Tazzie for letting you down. I can still be a good friend to people and I am not one who gossips. I am still a good person.


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## Hoofpic

It seems I have a new friend at the barn, one of the young girls (BO's helper, she's also my trainers best friend), who my other friends aren't very fond of. She gives me friends attitude (which I don't like, neither do my friends), but she doesn't give me attitude, she's really nice to me.

Over the past couple weeks we have been talking a lot more we have talked more in the past 2 weeks than in the previous 54 weeks.

Today I was cleaning Fly's herd water trough and then she arrived and I asked if she would like me to clean the others and she said sure! So I cleaned them all out and she said thanks after.


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## Hoofpic

I know you guys don't believe in join up but over the past month I have noticed a change in Fly when I go to catch her or just go up to her in general. I've normally just look at her tail and she turns to face me and sometimes she will come to me, other times she will just stand and wait for me to come to her. 

Sometimes I would have to look at her tail for a few seconds before she turns to face me, other times I would have to do it for 5, 6 or even 10 seconds.

But lately Ive noticed that when I go to catch her now, or just approach her she just comes to me. I dont even have to look at her tail. She sees me coming and as I get closer she turns to face me and comes to me.

Yesterday was the best, I went into their field, she saw me, I started walking towards her (she was facing the direction I was walking) and bam, she stopped eating grass and turned right around and starting walking to me so I could halter her. It was easily about 50ft from when she turned to face me and start walking to me. Isn't this what I ultimately wanted? (or should I say my outside trainer). Anyways, I wish I recorded it but it's easily the best that Fly has done thus far.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> I know you guys don't believe in join up but over the past month I have noticed a change in Fly when I go to catch her or just go up to her in general. I've normally just look at her tail and she turns to face me and sometimes she will come to me, other times she will just stand and wait for me to come to her.
> 
> Sometimes I would have to look at her tail for a few seconds before she turns to face me, other times I would have to do it for 5, 6 or even 10 seconds.
> 
> But lately Ive noticed that when I go to catch her now, or just approach her she just comes to me. I dont even have to look at her tail. She sees me coming and as I get closer she turns to face me and comes to me.
> 
> Yesterday was the best, I went into their field, she saw me, I started walking towards her (she was facing the direction I was walking) and bam, she stopped eating grass and turned right around and starting walking to me so I could halter her. It was easily about 50ft from when she turned to face me and start walking to me. Isn't this what I ultimately wanted? (or should I say my outside trainer). Anyways, I wish I recorded it but it's easily the best that Fly has done thus far.


That's not join up, that's just a horse who likes and wants to hang out with you. This is join up:


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## tinyliny

that is not the only way one can "join up " with a horse. and, having a horse that comes to you in the pasture can certainly be a sign that the horse is accepting of your leadership. I woulnd't look down my nose at that.

AS for what is shown in that video, I know it is not the only way to get a horse to "join up" , I disagree heartily. It isn't always necessary to run a horse a long time before you see him indicate he'd like to come in . it doesn't take long, nor is it that you just run him and run him, before he starts to think, "hey, things are much nicer with that fellow". 

you just have to offer him something interesting and important to join up to. monty roberts doesn't 'own' that concept. 

I feel pretty happy when my lease horse comes to me in the pasture. I think he thinks I'm a good place to be. even so, he won't follow me all around anywhere I go if I take him past some green grass. maybe I should take him into the round pen and run him around nonstop for 4 minutes. h m m . . . .


----------



## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> Okay forsure. It was just a standard bridge, I want to build a teeter totter but not quite sure how to go about it.
> 
> All my friend and I did was take home a couple wood palletes from one of the day clinics that we attended a few months ago. Then I went to home depot and bought some sheets of plywood and had them cut them to my measurements there.
> 
> My friend nailed the boards down on top of each pallette.  she is much better than I am with the hammer and nails.


Thanks, I was thinking it was this straightforward but just wanted to confirm. I think I'll be able to put this together over the weekend.



greentree said:


> Next time I go to Long C, I will get some detailed pictures of their teeter totter for you!! They have a nice one...


That would be great, thanks @greentree!


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> That's not join up, that's just a horse who likes and wants to hang out with you. This is join up:
> Monty Roberts Join Up Example - YouTube


I have done that exact same thing with Fly, mostly especially between 4:30 and 5mins. We didn't need to lunge her before hand. 

Two trainers before we did join up and yes we round penned Fly. But this was like 6 weeks after I got her last year and she was running all over me. Much MUCH different situiation. She was turning her butt to me every day I would go see her, she would rear up on me, she even turned her butt to this trainer the very first time he approached her. 

Fly tested me all the time, every single day to the limit and for the most part I failed. It wasn't until I started working with this trainer when things started to change.


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## greentree

It is not the "we" do not like join up, but what "we" said was that it did not have to be repeated endlessly. It needs to be done early in a relationship, like an introduction....
You do not need to say , "Hi, my name is Steven!!!" Every time you meet some one!!


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> that is not the only way one can "join up " with a horse. and, having a horse that comes to you in the pasture can certainly be a sign that the horse is accepting of your leadership. I woulnd't look down my nose at that.
> . . . .


I see it as a good thing that Fly is coming to me in the field. My outside trainer said that it's an overlooked aspect from horse owners when going to catch your horse. She thinks that every owner should be doing it.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I have done that exact same thing with Fly, mostly especially between 4:30 and 5mins. We didn't need to lunge her before hand.
> 
> Two trainers before we did join up and yes we round penned Fly. But this was like 6 weeks after I got her last year and she was running all over me. Much MUCH different situiation. She was turning her butt to me every day I would go see her, she would rear up on me, she even turned her butt to this trainer the very first time he approached her.
> 
> Fly tested me all the time, every single day to the limit and for the most part I failed. It wasn't until I started working with this trainer when things started to change.


Hmpff....whatever happened to " could NOT have done it without those wonderful people on the HF that poured their heart and soul, day in and day out, i to helping me"?????

Lol, sort of...


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> So my friend (doesn't want to) but is really considering moving to another barn because she feels that, that is her only option.
> 
> This is really sad news.


Let her go, she causes you more stress than you need



Hoofpic said:


> Yes but he will be in for a serious wakeup call when he finds out that he can't get away with stuff on another person that he currently does with his current owner..


 and he will be so much happier for it.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hmpff....whatever happened to " could NOT have done it without those wonderful people on the HF that poured their heart and soul, day in and day out, i to helping me"?????
> 
> Lol, sort of...


I'm not discrediting any of you guys. I just said that one of my past trainers "started" to get me on the right track with Fly when I first got her. Remember, I wasn't even a member on this community at that time and haven't even discovered HF at that time. 

When I joined here earlier this year, yes I was still having problems with Fly and you guys were my main source for help (thank you!), because I ditched that previous trainer when I switched barns. The day I left the previous barn, I said to myself that it was a new beginning for Fly and I. New barn, new people, new trainer, new mindset. I didn't want anything to do with anyone at the previous barn. I didn't even want to see any of them ever again (mind you I did happen to run into a couple past boarders at horse shows this past spring).

It's too bad I didn't join here when I got Fly, you guys would be quite surprised just how rocky things got off. It was really bad. When I brought in that trainer I was desperate. And even though he wasn't the right trainer for Fly and I long term and he was a bit of a jerk making stupid jokes towards me, he did make an immediate impact to turn things around.


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## 6gun Kid

@*egrogan* build the bridge like hoofpic did, then cut an 8"diameter fence post to fit inside the pallet ( you will have to knock a couple boards off), and presto ! Instant teeter totter.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Let her go, she causes you more stress than you need


True but you have to admit that if she leaves, it's really unfortunate. I would say even good chance she comes back. Is it worth losing a 10+ year friendship with the BO over something that she is not seeing right?

I learned from my past experience that switching barns is a big change. 



> and he will be so much happier for it.


I agree. I probably will be seeing my friend (with the colt) tonight. I don't see her often (sometimes it can be twice in a week, others it can be twice in two months), mainly because she comes out when it's late and no one is there. She does text me though, when she hasn't seen me in awhile, asking when I will be out next because she tries to come out when I am there and she said that she likes my company. Out of everyone at the barn, I'm forsure her closest friend.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> True but you have to admit that if she leaves, it's really unfortunate. I would say even good chance she comes back. Is it worth losing a 10+ year friendship with the BO over something that she is not seeing right?
> 
> I learned from my past experience that switching barns is a big change. .


Ah, but it doesn't have to be. A good barn owner/manager separates friendship from business. I managed a facility for a couple of years, and people left for various reasons and I am still friends with them and the owner's were as well. If you aren't getting what you need, you go to where you can get it. It ain't rocket surgery, it _is _common sense! :wink:


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> you guys would be quite surprised just how rocky things got off. It was really bad..


No, no we we would not be at all surprised, green rider buys green horse with no advice to help him out....the only surprise would have been if it worked out OK from the start.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> And even though he wasn't the right trainer for Fly and I long term and he was a bit of a jerk making stupid jokes towards me, he did make an immediate impact to turn things around.


 This is not entirely directed at you @Hoofpic, and I am legitimately asking this. Do you have to like your trainer? When I was an athlete the one coach I always gave 110% was quite the a$$hole, I hated him. I pictured doing violent and heinous acts to his person. But, I had the utmost respect for him so I put it all out there. I never left the football field, baseball diamond, or wrestling mat, whether practice or game/match, without giving everything I had and then some. If the miserable old SOB was still alive I don't know if I would **** down his throat if his heart was on fire, but if he told me to drop and give him 20, I would be on the ground. Just a random thought, from the oh so randomest of minds.


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## greentree

We WERE here at the very beginning....not on this thread, but all those others that kept getting closed.....


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## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> No, no we we would not be at all surprised, green rider buys green horse with no advice to help him out....the only surprise would have been if it worked out OK from the start.


Actually I was wrong, I had a ton of support at the previous barn when I got Fly but unfortunately many of the boarders gave me wrong advice and the barn helper who took me under her wings to learn from was one of the worst people to learn from. She taught me far more wrong than right.

Even basic stuff like tying a horse she taught me incorrectly. However, the trainer at that barn was VERY VERY good. It's too bad that I had such limited time with her because she was so booked up and then she had a family emergency to attend and didnt offer lessons for 2 months so I had to reach out to an outside trainer.

I had almost too much support because everyday I was out there I would have boarders coming up to me offering advice. Everything from referring me to a farrier, to telling me about Warwick Schiller, to telling me what grain to feed Fly.

I did meet some really great boarders there though. Even though it was drama heaven, I had a boarder tell me when she noticed that Fly was lame. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't have known because up until she told me, I never even heard of the word "lame" in the horse world, let alone what it meant. So even though I was given a lot of bad advice from many people, I am grateful for the good people who really helped me.


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## Whinnie

You REALLY need to stop obsessing about what other people do or don't do. Even though you appear to want to, you cannot control others.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> It is not the "we" do not like join up, but what "we" said was that it did not have to be repeated endlessly. It needs to be done early in a relationship, like an introduction....
> You do not need to say , "Hi, my name is Steven!!!" Every time you meet some one!!


I know but there is nothing wrong with me asking Fly to turn to face me when I go catch her. And at this point I don't need to ask because she knows the drill and automatically turns to me when she sees me coming.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I never even heard of the word "lame" in the horse world, let alone what it meant.


:eek_color::eek_color: that is quite incredible to me


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> This is not entirely directed at you @Hoofpic, and I am legitimately asking this. Do you have to like your trainer? When I was an athlete the one coach I always gave 110% was quite the a$$hole, I hated him. I pictured doing violent and heinous acts to his person. But, I had the utmost respect for him so I put it all out there. I never left the football field, baseball diamond, or wrestling mat, whether practice or game/match, without giving everything I had and then some. If the miserable old SOB was still alive I don't know if I would **** down his throat if his heart was on fire, but if he told me to drop and give him 20, I would be on the ground. Just a random thought, from the oh so randomest of minds.


I don't have to like the trainer but I don't like disrespectful ones. I will admit, my trainer now, there are times where she has attitude and can come across as a bit of a "know it all", but I don't let it get to me. She is respectful to me. One of my past trainers that I used at the old barn would crack jokes about my ethnic background, which wasn't cool at all. I know he was just trying to be funny, but he wasn't funny at all. It's fine that he didn't have faith in me being able to handle and care for a green horse, but still be professional about it. Don't just laugh at me and try to ridicule me. 

Like my trainer now, she is great and super professional, but I know that her and I aren't all that close. We don't really talk all that much to be honest and that's fine by me. Whereas, my previous outside trainer and I had such a close bond that we could talk all night about anything. She was very curious about me whereas my trainer now isn't. Which again is fine by me. But both trainers were still professional with me.


----------



## Hoofpic

I rode today in hoping I can adjust the saddle back and see how I like it. I'm glad that I experimented and got to see how it felt but I hated it. Something didn't feel right. I was not balanced at all and I had to cut the ride short because the saddle wouldn't stay tight on Fly and something didn't feel right.

Here are pics.










Notice in this pic (on her left) how the cinch cant even tighten with the cinch straight vertical but instead angled back a bit. Isn't the cinch suppose to be perfectly vertical?


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I know but there is nothing wrong with me asking Fly to turn to face me when I go catch her. And at this point I don't need to ask because she knows the drill and automatically turns to me when she sees me coming.


What?????


----------



## greentree

Golden Horse said:


> :eek_color::eek_color: that is quite incredible to me


And WHAT????


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> We WERE here at the very beginning....not on this thread, but all those others that kept getting closed.....


I know you guys were and I'm very thankful for all the help that I've been getting all along especially right at the start.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> I rode today in hoping I can adjust the saddle back and see how I like it. I'm glad that I experimented and got to see how it felt but I hated it. Something didn't feel right. I was not balanced at all and I had to cut the ride short because the saddle wouldn't stay tight on Fly and something didn't feel right.


So what did the more experienced person that you checked with say? I'm sure you asked your trainer, other rider, got another on the spot opinion?

Now it looks to far back, and the saddle pad still isn't pulled up into the gullet, that will make the pad press on her withers and make them sore, if you are not careful.

Saddle fitting is a tricky thing, and it is real hard to advise long distance by pictures, a matter of a couple of inches makes a huge difference.
Save​


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> You REALLY need to stop obsessing about what other people do or don't do. Even though you appear to want to, you cannot control others.


I know.


----------



## egrogan

6gun Kid said:


> This is not entirely directed at you @*Hoofpic* , and I am legitimately asking this. Do you have to like your trainer? When I was an athlete the one coach I always gave 110% was quite the a$$hole, I hated him. I pictured doing violent and heinous acts to his person. But, I had the utmost respect for him so I put it all out there. I never left the football field, baseball diamond, or wrestling mat, whether practice or game/match, without giving everything I had and then some. If the miserable old SOB was still alive I don't know if I would **** down his throat if his heart was on fire, but if he told me to drop and give him 20, I would be on the ground. Just a random thought, from the oh so randomest of minds.


This is an interesting question. I was a competitive athlete in high school and college (soccer & softball) and I was lucky to have some decent natural talent. It was important to me that coaches were "tough but fair"- just like we say about training horses. I mostly had a good head on my shoulders as a teenager, but sometimes would get a little cocky and lazy when things were easy for me but not others, and I appreciated a coach who would tell me that those traits were unbecoming of the leader I wanted to be. Being an a$$hole wouldn't have motivated me, but making me see I was mistreating or being disrespectful to others would.

I actually feel pretty different about what I want in a riding instructor- I don't care about someone who can "draw out the best" in my riding or prep me to be a role model for others. While I was deeply competitive about sports in my youth, riding is the one place in my life where I want to accept imperfection. I have no natural talent for it. I want it to be stress release. I purposely don't show. I don't even really set goals. I am so constantly worried about doing everything well in my professional life, this is the one place where I know I am going to mess up every. single. time. And I try to embrace that. So as far as riding instructors, I don't really have to "like" them. I want to trust that they know more than I do, and they are reasonably good at explaining it in an individualized way. I am purposely trying to make myself vulnerable (not by lacking basic good sense around horses, but by accepting that it's not about being perfect, and enjoying the experience) and wouldn't want the drill sargent type in this setting. 

The one thing I absolutely can't abide is someone who makes me feel stupid. I have ridden with a couple of people who made me feel really, really dumb and like I didn't deserve a horse. I just have no room for that in my life and would much prefer to muddle along without having a trainer.

Just my opinion, and my experience, of course...


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> So what did the more experienced person that you checked with say? I'm sure you asked your trainer, other rider, got another on the spot opinion?
> 
> Now it looks to far back, and the saddle pad still isn't pulled up into the gullet, that will make the pad press on her withers and make them sore, if you are not careful.
> 
> Saddle fitting is a tricky thing, and it is real hard to advise long distance by pictures, a matter of a couple of inches makes a huge difference.
> Save​


Not today, I was in the arena alone and my trainer was the only one there but she was doing chores. I have asked my trainer in the past (many many months ago) and she thought that my original position (from my pics last week) were the right spot. 

I will know forsure once my massage lady comes out next Monday to do some work on Fly and she will throw the saddle on her to check fitting and I will ask her about where it should be exactly, then I will take pictures for my reference and so you guys can see as well.

Yes today definitely felt too far back. For the time being (until the massage lady comes out next Monday), I will just place the saddle and pad on Fly in the position where I've been putting it all these months (just to be safe).

Ultimately, the person to ask IMO would be the BO (even my trainer admits that saddles and fitting isn't her strength and that the BO is the person to go to for this because he knows a lot more), but unfortunately he is still in the hospital.


----------



## StephaniHren

Golden Horse said:


> I have great sympathy with some of your friends issues, and do know that she, on her own, just can't reach inside and switch her 'brave' on. Yes she could make her own life easier by actually listening, but it is a very complex situation.


Just want to say thanks to GH for this one. As someone that had a really rough time with my first horse and ended up selling and going on a five year hiatus away from horses, I came back to riding with a lot more fear than I had as a kid. I tend to be hard on myself ("Why can't I ride this horse? I wouldn't have batted an eye five years ago" etc.). It's nice to be reminded that sometimes it's just not possible to reach inside and switch my "brave" on. 



Tazzie said:


> You are not a trainer. You have A LONG way to go until you could be considered like one. I've been riding over 15 years. I am NOT a trainer. I do NOT give advice to ANY of my friends unless they point blank ask me for help. Which yes, they have. Including my friend who IS a paid trainer.
> 
> But you have to stop. I know this is your journal, and I am very sorry if it comes of harsher than I meant. But you are not someone I'd ever want as a friend from seeing what you post here about people you do call your friends. A friend lifts the other person up, not belittles them for thinking differently.


Round of applause for this one!



6gun Kid said:


> This is not entirely directed at you @*Hoofpic* , and I am legitimately asking this. Do you have to like your trainer?





egrogan said:


> I don't care about someone who can "draw out the best" in my riding or prep me to be a role model for others. While I was deeply competitive about sports in my youth, riding is the one place in my life where I want to accept imperfection. I have no natural talent for it. I want it to be stress release.


I feel like yes, I do have to like my riding instructor. I'm finally in a place where my trainer/instructor is someone that I truly respect, and part of that is that she's friendly, patient, knowledgeable, a pro at communication (with people and horses), and just a generally awesome person. She never talks down to me, she answers all of my questions, and she explains things so that I can understand them (even if it takes a few tries). I agree with egrogan in that riding is my stress release, and part of this expensive hobby of mine is surrounding myself with supportive people that I truly like and care about. Could I learn from an instructor I didn't particularly like? Sure, but I tend to shut down when I don't feel like I have my instructor's respect, so I don't think I'd be learning as much as I am now with anyone besides my trainer.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I rode today in hoping I can adjust the saddle back and see how I like it. I'm glad that I experimented and got to see how it felt but I hated it. Something didn't feel right. I was not balanced at all and I had to cut the ride short because the saddle wouldn't stay tight on Fly and something didn't feel right.
> 
> Here are pics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice in this pic (on her left) how the cinch cant even tighten with the cinch straight vertical but instead angled back a bit. Isn't the cinch suppose to be perfectly vertical?


See the little silver concho on the front of the saddle? That should be behind the shoulder blade, not on it. In theses pictures it is behind but perhaps too much. In your other pictures it appears to be sitting right on the shoulder which could be why Fly has a short appearing stride.
Moving the saddle back will make it feel different because it is. Being on her back vs locked on her shoulder will make it feel loose when it probably isn't.

The cinch rings should be even. The off side is OK but the near side is practically under her belly.

Ideally the cinch should hang straight but some horses are built where that is not possible. One of mine has a sloping shoulder & for the saddle to be fitted properly the cinch sits at an angle (a bit of a belly doesn't help either). 

If you'll be using the old style of tying, the hook on the cinch should be kept in a hole on the latigo or gone, not hanging there.


----------



## Hoofpic

I just got a text late last night from my friend who I haven't talked to much lately (the one who might move), saying that the BO got back home late last night! YAY! I'm so happy! There's probably not a happier and more relieved person than my friend. Was not expecting him to be back this early, none of us were. From the sounds of it, we thought he would be back in November. But if he is back earlier then that means he is doing much better than the doctors anticipated.

But we won't know his plan until we talk to him on whether he plans to carry the same workload or if the girls there are going to help pick up the slack to lessen his load. IMO he should ease back into it and perhaps take a week off just relaxing at home to get his strength back up. Being in the hospital for just over 3 weeks takes a toll on anyone.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> See the little silver concho on the front of the saddle? That should be behind the shoulder blade, not on it. In theses pictures it is behind but perhaps too much. In your other pictures it appears to be sitting right on the shoulder which could be why Fly has a short appearing stride.
> Moving the saddle back will make it feel different because it is. Being on her back vs locked on her shoulder will make it feel loose when it probably isn't.


Yes I see it. So according to my map on a horse's shoulder blade, this is where Fly's shoulder is? Just double checking. If so then it looks like I have the saddle too far back by at least a 5 cms.



















Just for reference, here is a pic from last week and how I've always been saddling her. It looks like the silver ring is right on her shoulder blade, you are right.












> The cinch rings should be even. The off side is OK but the near side is practically under her belly.


What do you mean by this? There are two cinch rings but (when the cinch is on the horse), the rings are forward and back of each other.



> Ideally the cinch should hang straight but some horses are built where that is not possible. One of mine has a sloping shoulder & for the saddle to be fitted properly the cinch sits at an angle (a bit of a belly doesn't help either).


Oh okay thanks. Though I'm almost certain Fly shouldn't have any problem with having the cinch perfectly straight down. Even going back to pics of the previous owner riding Fly, she had the cinch (though a different one) straight down on her.



> If you'll be using the old style of tying, the hook on the cinch should be kept in a hole on the latigo or gone, not hanging there.


Sorry I took the pic took early, I actually do loop the hook on the cinch in the latigo up on the saddle.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> What do you mean by this? There are two cinch rings but (when the cinch is on the horse), the rings are forward and back of each other.


Here, I'll share this with you again. It shows how to properly fit and position the cinch.

https://www.dmtack.com/measure-cinch-length/


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Here, I'll share this with you again. It shows how to properly fit and position the cinch.
> 
> https://www.dmtack.com/measure-cinch-length/


Thanks, I get it now, I will measure it today before my lesson.

The thing is, I don't think I will be able to get the Cinch ring on the leftside to be upwards where it is on her offside. 

Lately my trainer asked and suggested I poke another hole in the leather strap so I did just that. Perhaps, I should go back to the last whole I was using. But from what I recall, even when I was on that hole, the distance from the D-ring to the cinch ring on the left side has always been much lower than the right side.

So how do I significantly cut that distance on the left side?

Just going by this pic, so you are telling me that I need to get the cinch ring on the left side to be way up like how it is in this pic?


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Notice in this pic (on her left) how the cinch cant even tighten with the cinch straight vertical but instead angled back a bit. Isn't the cinch suppose to be perfectly vertical?


Ok this is about the second picture, I am not smart enough to know how to delete the first pic. But your cinch is not adjusted properly, and while that in and of itself does not bother me. What bothers me is you have a trainer who lets you ride like this. Proper saddling should be your first lesson, and the first part of every lesson.


----------



## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Ok this is about the second picture, I am not smart enough to know how to delete the first pic. But your cinch is not adjusted properly, and while that in and of itself does not bother me. What bothers me is you have a trainer who lets you ride like this. Proper saddling should be your first lesson, and the first part of every lesson.


Well like I said, saddle fitting isn't my trainers forte, she even admitted it to me. She said the BO is the person to go to for this.

Now, I will say that before I poked another hole into the leather strap last week, and I was using the hole prior, the distance from the cinch ring to the D-ring on the left side of Fly was not nearly as great. That cinch ring was definitely higher up. How do I know this? Because on the previous hole, when fully cinched up I had MUCH MUCH more excess length left that I would loop through the latigo. Like 3 times the length. So today when I head back to the barn, I will experiment going back to the hole I was using before (good thing I have a saddle stand!), I will test it out on the stand first before on Fly.


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## natisha

Not where you marked your picture. Scapula is what you don't want the saddle sitting on. Shoulder blade is another name for scapula.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, I get it now, I will measure it today before my lesson.
> 
> The thing is, I don't think I will be able to get the Cinch ring on the leftside to be upwards where it is on her offside.
> 
> Lately my trainer asked and suggested I poke another hole in the leather strap so I did just that. Perhaps, I should go back to the last whole I was using. But from what I recall, even when I was on that hole, the distance from the D-ring to the cinch ring on the left side has always been much lower than the right side.
> 
> So how do I significantly cut that distance on the left side?
> 
> Just going by this pic, so you are telling me that I need to get the cinch ring on the left side to be way up like how it is in this pic?


Lower the right side.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> So how do I significantly cut that distance on the left side?
> 
> Just going by this pic, so you are telling me that I need to get the cinch ring on the left side to be way up like how it is in this pic?


You drop the off (right) side. 

There should be 4 to 6 inches between the rigging and the cinch on each side. And the d-ring in the center of the cinch should be centered between her front legs.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Well like I said, saddle fitting isn't my trainers forte, she even admitted it to me. She said the BO is the person to go to for this.
> 
> Now, I will say that before I poked another hole into the leather strap last week, and I was using the hole prior, the distance from the cinch ring to the D-ring on the left side of Fly was not nearly as great. That cinch ring was definitely higher up. How do I know this? Because on the previous hole, when fully cinched up I had MUCH MUCH more excess length left that I would loop through the latigo. Like 3 times the length. So today when I head back to the barn, I will experiment going back to the hole I was using before (good thing I have a saddle stand!), I will test it out on the stand first before on Fly.


That's because the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

6Gun is right. Anyone who saddles a horse should know how. There is a difference between saddle fitting & saddle placement.
Maybe your trainer didn't want to appear naggy.


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## greentree

One hole on the latigo CANNOT make the strap 3 times as long.... 

There are MILLIONS of saddle placements threads right here, on the HF, and at least tgat many on Youtube!

AND, it makes NO difference what hole the girth is in....you pull it up until it is SNUG enough to keep the saddle on! Everyday, i let the off-billet in and out, riding on different horses, untill the girth is IN THE MIDDLE!


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## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Well like I said, saddle fitting isn't my trainers forte, she even admitted it to me. She said the BO is the person to go to for this.


But now we are not talking about fitting, just tacking up. My trainer always points out if I have got something wrong, and believe me we all miss things at times. 

I am shocked that a trainer either does not know or notice when something is wrong.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Not where you marked your picture. Scapula is what you don't want the saddle sitting on. Shoulder blade is another name for scapula.


So the pad shouldn't be on the shoulder blade? How is this even possible to do if the saddle technically sits dead center on the pad?


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Lower the right side.


Ah okay thank you! So, technically I should NOT have poked another hole into my leather strap and move my adjustment up one, but instead drop my adjustment a hole or two.

I'm puzzled as to why my trainer told me to poke another hole and to move the adjustment up one hole.  She even saw how the saddle was after I brought it up one hole in the last lesson.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> You drop the off (right) side.
> 
> There should be 4 to 6 inches between the rigging and the cinch on each side. And the d-ring in the center of the cinch should be centered between her front legs.


But the ironic thing is that right now, currently the d-ring in the center of the cinch sits dead center between her front legs. I felt and checked it yesterday as well and it was still dead center.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> That's because the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.
> 
> 6Gun is right. Anyone who saddles a horse should know how. There is a difference between saddle fitting & saddle placement.
> Maybe your trainer didn't want to appear naggy.


It's not that my trainer didn't want to come across as naggy, I just feel that she's not as big into saddle fitting as we are here. You have to remember, 90% of her riders are students who come to ride the lesson horses. 

She doesn't believe in equine massage, or chiro or exact saddle fitting. I know this for a fact because if she did, I'm almost certain she would be fitting saddles on the lesson horses more often and not using neoprene cinches and non contour pads. The lesson horses get ridden a lot more often than the other horses on the barn, so they should be the ones who should have their saddles checked for fitting more often.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> So the pad shouldn't be on the shoulder blade? How is this even possible to do if the saddle technically sits dead center on the pad?


Do you have to adjust the placement of your underwear if you change pants?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> One hole on the latigo CANNOT make the strap 3 times as long....
> 
> There are MILLIONS of saddle placements threads right here, on the HF, and at least tgat many on Youtube!
> 
> AND, it makes NO difference what hole the girth is in....you pull it up until it is SNUG enough to keep the saddle on! Everyday, i let the off-billet in and out, riding on different horses, untill the girth is IN THE MIDDLE!


Okay perhaps I was exaggerating when I said 3 times as long, but when I went one hole on the latigo, I noticed that there was a lot less excess after I tightened it. Maybe 50% more, but still it was a significant difference. And like I said, prior to me poking that extra hole and moving the latigo adjustment up one hole, the distance from the D-ring to the cinch rings on both sides of Fly were a lot closer in distance.

I will adjust it today and take a pic to show you.

I'm still confused on why my trainer told me to move the adjustment up one and poke a hole. I will go back to my original hole and not mention anything to my trainer. I don't want her to think that I'm ignoring her advice.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> But now we are not talking about fitting, just tacking up. My trainer always points out if I have got something wrong, and believe me we all miss things at times.
> 
> I am shocked that a trainer either does not know or notice when something is wrong.


I'm shocked as well. I will give my trainer the benefit of the doubt that this was just something she completely and accidentally overlooked in our last lesson. 

BUT if she did notice it and believed it was correct, well then I would be greatly disappointed.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> But the ironic thing is that right now, currently the d-ring in the center of the cinch sits dead center between her front legs. I felt and checked it yesterday as well and it was still dead center.


It is impossible for tge girth ring to be almost onder her legs, and the center rings to be there, too. Not possible.


----------



## Hoofpic

And the reason why I'm giving my trainer the benefit of the doubt that she just made a mistake and overlooked it is because I know for a fact that with her students, she always ALWAYS ALWAYS doubles and triple checks the saddles after the students have put them up on the lesson horses. She is very thorough, she checks even more with younger students or ones who are less experienced.

So I won't put the blame on my trainer for this one, but I'm still confused as to why she asked me to move the latigo up.

The good news is that I was able to acknowledge that something wasn't right when I was riding Fly yesterday and I cut our lesson short. I didn't trot her for more than a minute because that is when I realized something wasn't right. So I got off of her, hopefully I didn't cause her too much discomfort or do any damage on her.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> And the reason why I'm giving my trainer the benefit of the doubt that she just made a mistake and overlooked it is because I know for a fact that with her students, she always ALWAYS ALWAYS doubles and triple checks the saddles after the students have put them up on the lesson horses. She is very thorough, she checks even more with younger students or ones who are less experienced.
> 
> So I won't put the blame on my trainer for this one, but I'm still confused as to why she asked me to move the latigo up.


She probably didn't see how far up the other side was.
It could be she assumes a horse owner knows how to saddle their own horse whereas a student with one of her horses may not.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Do you have to adjust the placement of your underwear if you change pants?


I don't get it.



natisha said:


> She probably didn't see how far up the other side was.
> It could be she assumes a horse owner knows how to saddle their own horse whereas a student with one of her horses may not.


I think that's the case too. She feels that I don't really need too much help anymore on tacking up Fly so she just lets me do my thing. 

And in our last lesson, she didn't see how far up the right side was.

Like I said, there is a reason why I got a saddle fitter out after I got this saddle to try and ride on Fly, because I knew that saddle fitting isn't my trainers strength and even though I could have asked my BO (he definitely has the knowledge), I didn't want to bother him as enough people already come to him for help. My trainer also wasn't at the barn the time she was there but I did tell her that I had a saddle fitter out. She seemed okay with it.

I will have my massage lady out this Monday to work on Fly and she will also check fitting on Fly and then I can ask her for the exact placement on where the saddle should be on her.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> And the reason why I'm giving my trainer the benefit of the doubt that she just made a mistake and overlooked it is because I know for a fact that with her students, she always ALWAYS ALWAYS doubles and triple checks the saddles after the students have put them up on the lesson horses. She is very thorough, she checks even more with younger students or ones who are less experienced.
> 
> So I won't put the blame on my trainer for this one, but I'm still confused as to why she asked me to move the latigo up.
> 
> The good news is that I was able to acknowledge that something wasn't right when I was riding Fly yesterday and I cut our lesson short. I didn't trot her for more than a minute because that is when I realized something wasn't right. So I got off of her, hopefully I didn't cause her too much discomfort or do any damage on her.


The next time something doesn't feel right try getting off, loosening the cinch, adjusting the saddle by letting it seat itself, then get back on.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> It is impossible for tge girth ring to be almost onder her legs, and the center rings to be there, too. Not possible.


I will double check again today after I move the latigo back to it's original position. 

If my trainer asks why I moved it back, what should I say? I'm sure she will notice. I don't want her to think that I'm ignoring her advice. But the truth is, moving the latigo up one is causing too great of a distance on the other side from the two rings.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> But the ironic thing is that right now, currently the d-ring in the center of the cinch sits dead center between her front legs. I felt and checked it yesterday as well and it was still dead center.












No way Pedro, not unless your cinch is 6" long, ZERO chance of the centre D being anywhere near the centre of her barrel there


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> No way Pedro, not unless your cinch is 6" long, ZERO chance of the centre D being anywhere near the centre of her barrel there


Now when I think of it, I think I may need to drop my latigo down TWO holes. I know in that video, it says to have both sides both sides between 6-8". But what if one side is even half an inch longer than the other? Should I pock another hole to make both sides perfectly even?


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, go back and look at your pictures on post #3828---the cinch ring is way high on the off side and way low on the near side! There is no way the cinch's d ring is centered under her belly. You also need to pull the pad up under the horn so it's not putting pressure on her withers. Also your pad is crooked in those pictures----see how much is hanging lower than the bottom edge of the saddle on the near side compared to the off side? 


If your saddle is correct positioned and fits the horse it should not be moving around on her back UNLESS YOU are out of balance. 


As for your BO, the doctor will have given him instructions on how much he can do----stay out of it because you are not a doctor! Normal today is to encourage patients to be as active as they feel up to and try to resume their normal routine.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> The next time something doesn't feel right try getting off, loosening the cinch, adjusting the saddle by letting it seat itself, then get back on.


Thanks. I always let the saddle just seat itself but yesterday it wouldn't have stayed on her tight regardless because the latigo being too far up and saddle too far back. 

I know where the shoulder is, but I wish I had the knowledge to pinpoint exactly where it ends so then I would know forsure where the saddle should be.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, go back and look at your pictures on post #3828---the cinch ring is way high on the off side and way low on the near side! There is no way the cinch's d ring is centered under her belly.


Yes I see it now, I didn't know this yesterday when I saddled her but I knew when I got on her. I think when I check to see if the cinch's d ring is centered under her belly is to stand in front of, squat down and look, and not check from the side because sometimes that angle can be misleading.



> You also need to pull the pad up under the horn so it's not putting pressure on her withers.


Pull the pad forward you mean? So then technically there would be more length horizontally between the pad and saddle at the front than at the back?




> Also your pad is crooked in those pictures----see how much is hanging lower than the bottom edge of the saddle on the near side compared to the off side?


Yes I have noticed this too for awhile and it's bothered me. Her pad seems to be molded off more to one side. Even if I put the pad on straight, it shifts to the side after I put the saddle on. Does the pad just need to be resculpted to her frame?

One thing that I have learned is to always saddle up a horse with all 4 of their feet flat (or squared is even better) because if you saddle them and they have one of their hind legs crocked, it totally throws everything off. So I always get Fly to stand squared, or as close as I can get her before putting her saddle on.



> If your saddle is correct positioned and fits the horse it should not be moving around on her back UNLESS YOU are out of balance.


True, but if it wasn't tight enough from the start it can move around as well. Or if the horse lets out air during the ride, I've noticed that it loosens up the cinch a bit. From what I've noticed saddles rarely stay just as tight when you finish riding (especially if longer ride with trotting etc) than at the start of the ride. 



> As for your BO, the doctor will have given him instructions on how much he can do----stay out of it because you are not a doctor! Normal today is to encourage patients to be as active as they feel up to and try to resume their normal routine.


I know, I am going to stay out of it and give him his space. Chances are he might not even be out today. I know the barn will be busy tonight as I know that there are not two happier people than two of my friends to see him back.

Even before he went into emerg and he wasn't feeling well in those 3 weeks, I gave him his space. If he wasn't feeling well, I didn't even approach him because I know that my friends were already asking him enough times on how he is feeling etc. I'm sure he didn't need anymore of that.


----------



## Prairie

No you don't put the pad forward---you pull it UP toward the horn so it tents over the withers and is not putting pressure on them


If a saddle truly fits a horse and the rider knows how to mount, that rider can mount a horse without a cinch! I ride our mare with a loose cinch because her saddle fits --- even on rough challenging trails going up and down steep buttes, that saddle doesn't slip. If I were unbalance, I'd pull the saddle crooked. It's not the tightness of the cinch that keeps it place correctly on the horse if the saddle fits---if the saddle fits and is moving, the rider is off-balanced! 


Put the pad on straight and have someone hold it in place while you place the saddle and cinch it up----the pad will reshape itself. Also you should be cleaning this pad, which will distort the shape that conforms to the horse----when was the last time you washed it?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> No you don't put the pad forward---you pull it UP toward the horn so it tents over the withers and is not putting pressure on them


Oh I see, thanks. But the front edge of the pad will be right up to the edge of the saddle. I always thought that the edges can't touch.



> If a saddle truly fits a horse and the rider knows how to mount, that rider can mount a horse without a cinch! I ride our mare with a loose cinch because her saddle fits --- even on rough challenging trails going up and down steep buttes, that saddle doesn't slip. If I were unbalance, I'd pull the saddle crooked. It's not the tightness of the cinch that keeps it place correctly on the horse if the saddle fits---if the saddle fits and is moving, the rider is off-balanced!


Oh I didn't know this.



> Put the pad on straight and have someone hold it in place while you place the saddle and cinch it up----the pad will reshape itself.


Okay I will have to get one of my friends to do this or another boarder. Should it reshape itself in just one ride?



> Also you should be cleaning this pad, which will distort the shape that conforms to the horse----when was the last time you washed it?


I washed it just over a month ago, I took it home and hosed it down inside and out and let it hang dry over a chair. Perhaps I went too long before my first cleaning (5 months), but I plan on cleaning it once a month all year round.


----------



## Prairie

How often you clean a pad depends on how often it's used and how dirty the horse is.


Just look on some of the other threads for pictures of western saddle with the pad "tented" over the withers so you can visualize what you need to do.


----------



## NavigatorsMom

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I always let the saddle just seat itself but yesterday it wouldn't have stayed on her tight regardless because the latigo being too far up and saddle too far back.
> 
> I know where the shoulder is, but I wish I had the knowledge to pinpoint exactly where it ends so then I would know forsure where the saddle should be.


This video may help you with placement of the saddle in relation to the shoulder. Of course, you should be careful when taking information from videos but I feel like this one is decent and at least has a good visual. 






Thanks to a quick search on youtube. And there are many others for you to choose from!


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> How often you clean a pad depends on how often it's used and how dirty the horse is.
> 
> 
> Just look on some of the other threads for pictures of western saddle with the pad "tented" over the withers so you can visualize what you need to do.


Thanks.

Fly doesnt get very dirty and if she is, its not for long because I brush her so often lol.

Most of the pics ive seen look like my saddle with the pad sticking out at the bottom. Let me look some more.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Now when I think of it, I think I may need to drop my latigo down TWO holes. I know in that video, it says to have both sides both sides between 6-8". But what if one side is even half an inch longer than the other? Should I pock another hole to make both sides perfectly even?


That's why it say 6-8". You have a 2" margin to adjust...


----------



## greentree

Your saddle may NEED to be further forward tyhan normal to put you in a decent position, because Fly is so short backed.


----------



## egrogan

greentree said:


> Your saddle may NEED to be further forward tyhan normal to put you in a decent position, because Fly is so short backed.


I don't know anything about western saddles, but I was looking at all these pictures and wondering if that saddle is just plain too big for her, based on how much of her little body it covers in either the "too far forward" or "too far back" positions. But folks with knowledge of western fit should definitely override that if it's wrong.


----------



## jenkat86

egrogan said:


> I don't know anything about western saddles, but I was looking at all these pictures and wondering if that saddle is just plain too big for her, based on how much of her little body it covers in either the "too far forward" or "too far back" positions. But folks with knowledge of western fit should definitely override that if it's wrong.


I don't think the saddle fits her OR @Hoofpic well at all...but we really need better photos to prove that. 

She looks short-strided and uncomfortable in all the videos...as does the rider.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well todays ride was a success! Trainer said Fly did great on the road. We were exposed to more today than all the previous timea I rode her on the road. There was big pipes with big shadows along the way, the traintrack, big spooky trees and other misc stuff and Fly was fine. My trainer even showed me good spots along the way to canter Fly when I get better.

There was a flock of birds that popped up out of nowhere and both horses spooked but it was good and everyone was fine. Fly just reacted cause my trainers gelding spooked as they were ahead the whole time.her horse is a walker so he has a fast walk. I had to get Fly to trot on and off to keep up (which my trainer suggested I did) before the lesson. Plus smaller horse means, shorter strides and they need to walk faster to keep up with a bigger horse.

Trainer and I agreed we will do this on occasion and will do it once more this year before the snow comes.

I was going to record it but I didnt know if my trainer was okay with it but she said she was fine and even asked how come I didnt record it.


----------



## Hoofpic

I adjusted the leather strap back to its original hole and its much better. What do you guys think?

The cinch ring is right in the center of her belly.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> greentree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your saddle may NEED to be further forward tyhan normal to put you in a decent position, because Fly is so short backed.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know anything about western saddles, but I was looking at all these pictures and wondering if that saddle is just plain too big for her, based on how much of her little body it covers in either the "too far forward" or "too far back" positions. But folks with knowledge of western fit should definitely override that if it's wrong.
Click to expand...

Well this is the smallest saddle I was able to find her when I shopped for saddles last year and when I had the saddle fitter out she said it fit her perfect with consistent feel throughout and the only part that had a bit of pressure (but very mild and nothing to be concerned about) was on her shoulders but she said to keep an eye on it.

She said that I couldnt find a better fit for her.


----------



## Prairie

That saddle sis cutting into her hip bones because she's short backed and small---you need a rounded skirt saddle for her rather than the full square skirt you have. 


The cinch looks better now since the rings on each side are about the same distance from the saddle. Now you need to measure from the cinch's D-ring to the rings on both sides to see I that's within the 6 to 8 inches.


----------



## Hoofpic

I think my trainer was very proud of me today, maybe even a bit surprised? Or maybe not? That the ride went so well and I was super calm and Fly just went with the flow and we didn't run into any problems. Apparently I am only one of two boarders who have done this path and on by far the youngest horse currently being ridden at the barn.

Fly got a bit of a workout because she had to trot on and off especially on the way back there was a nice good straight stretch to canter or trot and it's going a bit uphill. But really good for building their muscles right? They build them faster when going up hills.

The trip was easily 3km, maybe even 4. We went for 1hour and 10mins straight.

I guess you could say that this was the biggest "trail like" experience Fly and I have had thus far.


----------



## Hoofpic

NavigatorsMom said:


> This video may help you with placement of the saddle in relation to the shoulder. Of course, you should be careful when taking information from videos but I feel like this one is decent and at least has a good visual.
> 
> Saddle Fitting: Proper Way to Fit a Horse | Burns Saddlery, Horse Saddles, Western Saddle, Saddlery - YouTube
> 
> Thanks to a quick search on youtube. And there are many others for you to choose from!


Thank you so much.

According to that video, the tree should sit no further forward than the peak/highest point of the wither, am I right? Now just need to find out where the pad goes.


----------



## tinyliny

I think the best way to find out where the tree sits on your horse is to tap it into place. try this as an experiment: set the saddle on her back, no pad at all to begin with, and set it well forward of where you want it to end up, like 3 or 4 inches too far forward. 
then, using the edge of you hand , as if you are sort of karate chopping along the front edge of the fork, you lightly 'tap' it backward. it should sort of slide back until it sinks into the place its' going to sink into anyway, at which point, you won't be able to move it back unless you tap harder. that's 'home'. 

step back and see where the saddle sits on her back. experiment with rocking it side to side, fore to aft. it should be pretty solid. try to remember that location, becuase the next time you put it on, it will with the pad under it. 

again, start too far fowrad, even with the pad, and use a tapping to push it back to home. the pad can extend a good 3 , even 4 inches in front of the front edge of the saddle, if you need to get it off the hip for a short backed horse. just be very sure to pull the pad up into the arch of the fork, as far as you can. check twice.

as for a saddle that rubs her hip, it might. but, if you have a good pad under the saddle, and you do, it will at least lift the hard edge of the skirt off her skin 3/4 of an inch, and while the pad might rub on her hip as she walks, the saddle will clear it. do keep an eye on that area. if you see the hair starting to rub off, you might have a little problem.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> when I had the saddle fitter out she said it fit her perfect with consistent feel throughout and the only part that had a bit of pressure (but very mild and nothing to be concerned about) was on her shoulders but she said to keep an eye on it.
> 
> She said that I couldnt find a better fit for her.


Well if she told you that, I wouldn't ever give her another dime of my hard earned money. That saddle does NOT fit well, and you CAN find a better saddle. There are thousands of them out there. Several of which are probably right under your nose, you just have to find them. 

My advice to you...save the money that you would normally pay the "saddle fitter" and use it to start saving for a nice saddle. You get what you pay for...so you will need to dish out quite a bit for a nice saddle. While you are saving start doing your research. I'd start here: Saddle Fitting Issues - The Horse Forum

You and your horse will benefit from this.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Well if she told you that, I wouldn't ever give her another dime of my hard earned money. That saddle does NOT fit well, and you CAN find a better saddle. There are thousands of them out there. Several of which are probably right under your nose, you just have to find them.
> 
> My advice to you...save the money that you would normally pay the "saddle fitter" and use it to start saving for a nice saddle. You get what you pay for...so you will need to dish out quite a bit for a nice saddle. While you are saving start doing your research. I'd start here: Saddle Fitting Issues - The Horse Forum
> 
> You and your horse will benefit from this.


But I don't get it, what's wrong with her current saddle?

Yes that is what the saddle fitter (at the time) said to me. She put on one of those gel pads underneath the saddle and rode her for 20mins to get enough heat under to make an imprint. She showed me the results after.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> I think the best way to find out where the tree sits on your horse is to tap it into place. try this as an experiment: set the saddle on her back, no pad at all to begin with, and set it well forward of where you want it to end up, like 3 or 4 inches too far forward.
> then, using the edge of you hand , as if you are sort of karate chopping along the front edge of the fork, you lightly 'tap' it backward. it should sort of slide back until it sinks into the place its' going to sink into anyway, at which point, you won't be able to move it back unless you tap harder. that's 'home'.


Oh okay thanks, I get it! I will try this when I head out tomorrow. I could be wrong but I'm almost certain the saddle fitter at the time did this as well.



> step back and see where the saddle sits on her back. experiment with rocking it side to side, fore to aft. it should be pretty solid. try to remember that location, becuase the next time you put it on, it will with the pad under it.


Okay, and I think the best thing for me to do is to take a picture from both sides once I get it on and find "home".



> again, start too far fowrad, even with the pad, and use a tapping to push it back to home. *the pad can extend a good 3 , even 4 inches in front of the front edge of the saddle*, if you need to get it off the hip for a short backed horse. just be very sure to pull the pad up into the arch of the fork, as far as you can. check twice.I could be wrong but I'm almost certain the saddle fitter at the time did this as well.
> 
> Okay I will do that. From the sounds of it, it sounds like I will have to have the back edge of the saddle, right up against (or close to) the back edge of the pad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as for a saddle that rubs her hip, it might. but, if you have a good pad under the saddle, and you do, it will at least lift the hard edge of the skirt off her skin 3/4 of an inch, and while the pad might rub on her hip as she walks, the saddle will clear it. do keep an eye on that area. if you see the hair starting to rub off, you might have a little problem.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think it is rubbing her hip, I know the fitter at the time said it wasn't.
> 
> I haven't noticed any hair rubbing off at all on her.
Click to expand...


----------



## greentree

Could you put the saddle on Fly without the pad, and show us some pictures? Take them from the front angle, side, and back, on both sides.

No, the saddle will still be IN THE MIDDLE of the pad when you pull the front straight up into the gullet.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> But I don't get it, what's wrong with her current saddle?
> 
> Yes that is what the saddle fitter (at the time) said to me. She put on one of those gel pads underneath the saddle and rode her for 20mins to get enough heat under to make an imprint. She showed me the results after.


What is wrong with the current saddle...it doesn't fit! You don't understand proper saddle fit yet, which is why you don't get it. That's OK. It's hard to understand...really hard to understand with western saddles, IMO. 

Take pictures the way @greentree suggested. They will tell us A LOT! 

You don't need to ride around for 20 minutes with a gel pad to see if a saddle doesn't fit. It can all be done from the ground, without making the horse move a muscle. 

Check out this video- If you ignore the fact that he is trying to sell his saddles throughout the whole video, he actually does give good instruction to see how a saddle should fit.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Could you put the saddle on Fly without the pad, and show us some pictures? Take them from the front angle, side, and back, on both sides.
> 
> No, the saddle will still be IN THE MIDDLE of the pad when you pull the front straight up into the gullet.


Okay I will do this tomorrow when I head out. I'm giving Fly a break today from seeing me. 

So you need to pull the front of the pad upwards into the gullet each time you saddle? I didn't know this.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> What is wrong with the current saddle...it doesn't fit! You don't understand proper saddle fit yet, which is why you don't get it. That's OK. It's hard to understand...really hard to understand with western saddles, IMO.
> 
> Take pictures the way @greentree suggested. They will tell us A LOT!
> 
> You don't need to ride around for 20 minutes with a gel pad to see if a saddle doesn't fit. It can all be done from the ground, without making the horse move a muscle.
> 
> Check out this video- If you ignore the fact that he is trying to sell his saddles throughout the whole video, he actually does give good instruction to see how a saddle should fit.
> 
> Steve Lantvit Saddle Fitting Show - YouTube


I'm confused, I still have a feeling it fits. I will watch the video too.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Okay I will do this tomorrow when I head out. I'm giving Fly a break today from seeing me.
> 
> So you need to pull the front of the pad upwards into the gullet each time you saddle? I didn't know this.


What do you mean, "do you need to pull the front of the pad upwards into the gullet each time you saddle?" When would you NOT pull it into the gullet when you are saddling?


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I'm confused, I still have a feeling it fits. I will watch the video too.


It may fit fine. We've only seen it 2 ways-too far forward & too far back. As suggested take some pics in different positions & not just close ups.


----------



## natisha

phantomhorse13 said:


> I thought might be easier for people to see if its embedded here for them:
> 
> http://youtu.be/4CcajVNp-w4


I just grabbed the first video I found but you can see there is enough room to move the saddle back a bit. That may be all you need to do.


----------



## greentree

In that video, it does look like there is room on her back to move it back a bit.


----------



## Whinnie

The saddle may fit if it is the right position. Like, you try on a pair of pants that fit. But if you sag them down and don't wear them where they should fit, like around your waist, they are wrong. They fit when worn correctly.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> What do you mean, "do you need to pull the front of the pad upwards into the gullet each time you saddle?" When would you NOT pull it into the gullet when you are saddling?


Ive always been just putting the pad on her, then the saddle on top. I've never pulled the pad and I didn't know this. I would like to see how this is exactly done.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> It may fit fine. We've only seen it 2 ways-too far forward & too far back. As suggested take some pics in different positions & not just close ups.


I will get some good pics tomorrow when I at there.


----------



## Hoofpic

I need to ask a personal question and I hope no one is bothered by it. It's off topic, but I have no one else to ask and don't know how to go about this. 

My boss is great and I enjoy working for him, except there is only one gripe that drives me bonkers. This comes from him not being nearly as good as me when it comes to admin and keeping up with stuff, he needs reminders on stuff every now and then (which is fine!), because with my former boss I had to give reminders to him every now and then as well (but I will admit my current boss is nowhere near as good as my former one when it comes to day to day stuff). My boss knows and fully acknowledges that he is louzy when it comes to admin and keeping up with stuff and that is a big reason on why he hired me.

He is almost always late in paying me and I have to remind him because he forgets as he gets carried away with other work stuff. The 1st and 16th of every month is when he deposits money into my account at his bank. If the 1st or 16th lands on a holiday or weekend, he pays the following business day (Which is fine).

When I first started working for him, when it first happened for the first time, (it was the 16th I believe and I checked my account on that day and there was nothing), I asked him about it and he said it would be in by the end of the day. I said that's fine and he did follow through.

But over the past 2 pays days, he forgot and I had to remind him. The last pay, I waited a full 5 days before reminding him. I just said something like "Hey ____, don't forget about my pay from Sept 1 to 15, thanks." And he sincerely apologized about forgetting and getting carried away with other stuff. He took care of it a couple days later.

I was going to just not remind him at all and if by the next pay day, he didn't bring it up, I would just remind him at the next pay period (when I submit my timesheet) that he needs to pay my previous one as well.

I submit my timesheet to him a couple days in advance (which is what he wanted and it's more than enough time for him to go over it) because we don;t have a payroll or HR department. 1-2 days before the pay day is the best because submitting anytime sooner will just increase the chances of him forgetting to check it.

Now I understand that he is very busy working away and I know 100% that he is a good guy and he is not one to rip me off. He keeps his word. But I will admit, it's getting old having to remind him to pay my timesheet. I don't even like doing it, I feel like I'm nagging and I don't want him to think that the money is the most important thing for me on the job.

This current pay period should have been paid 3 days ago but I haven't reminded him yet. Frankly, I'm getting tired of it but also I don't want to come across as a pest. So I was considering doing what I was ABOUT to do the last pay period, and just wait and if he hasn't taken care of it before the next pay day (Nov 1), then when I submit my timesheet for Oct 16-31, I will just say "I submitted my timesheet for Oct 16-31....also don't forget to pay my timesheet for Oct 1-15. Thanks" Good or bad idea?

And the thing is, as of today, we have another member on board, a guy who will help me out, and he will be submitting his timesheets the same way as me. Chances are that if my boss is forgetting to pay me on the exact dates and I need to remind him, well very likely that the same is going to happen to the new guy. Which I'm sure he won't be impressed about and perhaps will scare him away.

What would you do? What should I do?


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Ive always been just putting the pad on her, then the saddle on top. I've never pulled the pad and I didn't know this. I would like to see how this is exactly done.


You can do it without a visual.
Put pad & saddle on. Before you tighten the saddle slide your left thumb or fingers under the front of the pad & lift it up towards the horn. It will make a little tent over her withers.
Then tighten the saddle.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I need to ask a personal question and I hope no one is bothered by it. It's off topic, but I have no one else to ask and don't know how to go about this.
> 
> My boss is great and I enjoy working for him, except there is only one gripe that drives me bonkers. This comes from him not being nearly as good as me when it comes to admin and keeping up with stuff, he needs reminders on stuff every now and then (which is fine!), because with my former boss I had to give reminders to him every now and then as well (but I will admit my current boss is nowhere near as good as my former one when it comes to day to day stuff). My boss knows and fully acknowledges that he is louzy when it comes to admin and keeping up with stuff and that is a big reason on why he hired me.
> 
> He is almost always late in paying me and I have to remind him because he forgets as he gets carried away with other work stuff. The 1st and 16th of every month is when he deposits money into my account at his bank. If the 1st or 16th lands on a holiday or weekend, he pays the following business day (Which is fine).
> 
> When I first started working for him, when it first happened for the first time, (it was the 16th I believe and I checked my account on that day and there was nothing), I asked him about it and he said it would be in by the end of the day. I said that's fine and he did follow through.
> 
> But over the past 2 pays days, he forgot and I had to remind him. The last pay, I waited a full 5 days before reminding him. I just said something like "Hey ____, don't forget about my pay from Sept 1 to 15, thanks." And he sincerely apologized about forgetting and getting carried away with other stuff. He took care of it a couple days later.
> 
> I was going to just not remind him at all and if by the next pay day, he didn't bring it up, I would just remind him at the next pay period (when I submit my timesheet) that he needs to pay my previous one as well.
> 
> I submit my timesheet to him a couple days in advance (which is what he wanted and it's more than enough time for him to go over it) because we don;t have a payroll or HR department. 1-2 days before the pay day is the best because submitting anytime sooner will just increase the chances of him forgetting to check it.
> 
> Now I understand that he is very busy working away and I know 100% that he is a good guy and he is not one to rip me off. He keeps his word. But I will admit, it's getting old having to remind him to pay my timesheet. I don't even like doing it, I feel like I'm nagging and that the money is the most important thing for me on the job.
> 
> This current pay period should have been paid 3 days ago but I haven't reminded him yet. Frankly, I'm getting tired of it but also I don't want to come across as a pest. So I was considering doing what I was ABOUT to do the last pay period, and just wait and if he hasn't taken care of it before the next pay day (Nov 1), then when I submit my timesheet for Oct 16-31, I will just say "I submitted my timesheet for Oct 16-31....also don't forget to pay my timesheet for Oct 1-15. Thanks"
> 
> And the thing is, as of today, we have another member on board, a guy who will help me out, and he will be submitting his timesheets the same way as me. Chances are that if my boss is forgetting to pay me on the exact dates and I need to remind him, well very likely that the same is going to happen to the new guy. Which I'm sure he won't be impressed about and perhaps will scare him away.
> 
> What would you do? What should I do?


Keep reminding him or suggest autopay if your hours are always the same.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Keep reminding him or suggest autopay if your hours are always the same.


My hours aren't always the same.

So my current pay is 3 days late, are you saying that I should text him to remind him again even though I just did the same thing for the last pay? Wouldn't I come across as a pest?

How would you word the text exactly this time?

Every time I remind him, I'm always saying "Hey ___, don't forget my timesheet for (date) to (date).

I don't want to say the same, I'm alreay feeling like a broken record.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> My hours aren't always the same.
> 
> So my current pay is 3 days late, are you saying that I should text him to remind him again even though I just did the same thing for the last pay? Wouldn't I come across as a pest?
> 
> How would you word the text exactly this time?
> 
> Every time I remind him, I'm always saying "Hey ___, don't forget my timesheet for (date) to (date).
> 
> I don't want to say the same, I'm alreay feeling like a broken record.


"I need my money."
How can you be a pest when you earned that money? Keep telling him, over & over.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> "I need my money."
> How can you be a pest when you earned that money? Keep telling him, over & over.


"I need my money" might be a bit too harsh and blunt. Okay I will just say the same thing again what I've always been saying.

So you think I'm not being a pain in the butt by reminding him again and not just waiting for the next pay period?

Like I said, I feel like such a broken record.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Do you write any checks for the business? If so, then I would total my time card, send it in for review 2 or 3 days before payday, with a Large Post It note that says, "PAY DAY IS OCT 1, thank you". or whatever day it falls on. On the day your pay is due, write a check to you and take it to him for signature. If you can't write the check yourself, then take him the checkbook. I'd also let him know that I was incurring late fees because of him and that I would be looking to him to pay them from on (even if you're not, it's just to get his attention). If it gets bad enough, and it sounds like it's heading there, I'd copy and paste your labor law pertaining to timely pay, on your time card.


----------



## greentree

Since there is another person coming on, I would ask him if he wants you to be in charge of handing out the payroll. Then, you get the two timecards, hand them to him, and wait for the checks.


----------



## Hoofpic

I just texted him "Hey ____, don't forget about my timesheet from Oct 1 to 15".

ARGH!!!! I feel like such a pest! Like the kid in the candy store who keeps nagging mom for candy. UHHH I hate being a pain in the butt, I really do, this is not who I am!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Since there is another person coming on, I would ask him if he wants you to be in charge of handing out the payroll. Then, you get the two timecards, hand them to him, and wait for the checks.


My boss has given me the responsibility being in charge (which I don't mind). My assistant will submit his timesheet to me and I will forward it to my boss, and I will include mine at the same time.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Hoofpic said:


> My boss has given me the responsibility being in charge (which I don't mind). My assistant will submit his timesheet to me and I will forward it to my boss, and I will include mine at the same time.


Then I would hold them until the day before pay day and I would hand walk them in and wait for the checks.


----------



## Hoofpic

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Then I would hold them until the day before pay day and I would hand walk them in and wait for the checks.


That might not always work because he could be away on vac (which he is on quite often) or if he is out with meetings, or whatever.

I will mention though that when I first started working for him, he did give me the option of me having my money deposited to me by him going to the bank or he cuts me a cheque and I pick it up from his home. I selected the first option because I wouldn't have to drive all the way down to his house for it and it would suck in winters. He is about a 25min drive from home.

but I'm wondering if having him cut me cheques is much more convenient for him and if him going to the bank is a bit inconvenient for him at times. 

I do trust him though, I know he is a good man and over the course of the year I have seen that. But he is just louzy with forgetting stuff and needs to be reminded. I remind him on other stuff, so this issue is not just pay related.

It has taken me some time to get used to working for a procrastinator (in this case an extreme one), when I considered my former boss to be one as well, but he's nowhere near as bad as my current one. Which is fine. Everyone is different. It just limits how much I can do and how fast I can do stuff when he delays things (not talking about pay, just work tasks). He hired me to take charge and run with it (and I have), but when the other person can't keep up, I get limited (which is okay). Not my preference, but like I said I will make him better in the long run. Not saying I will and can change him but I will make him improve.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Hoofpic said:


> That might not always work because he could be away on vac (which he is on quite often) or if he is out with meetings, or whatever.
> 
> I will mention though that when I first started working for him, he did give me the option of me having my money deposited to me by him going to the bank or he cuts me a cheque and I pick it up from his home. I selected the first option because I wouldn't have to drive all the way down to his house for it and it would suck in winters. He is about a 25min drive from home.


Easy way to solve this. Before he goes on vacation, he makes out the checks and leaves hours & amounts blank. You scan the time sheets into the computer and email them to him, he calls and tells you how much to fill in for the amounts on the checks and pay stubs. Or, you estimate your hours i.e. You normally work 87 hours every 2 weeks, so that's what he makes the check for and he gives you a make up check if you're over or you work the amount of hours you were short over the next 2 weeks without extra pay or he pays for 80 and makes a catch up check when he returns. He's sounding irresponsible to me, I wouldn't stay somewhere I couldn't count on my pay on time.


----------



## egrogan

Do you use an electronic calendar system like Outlook? If so, can you send him a recurring calendar appointment the day before payroll is due so he always sees it on his calendar? 

Alternatively, do you have a weekly or bi-weekly check-in? If so, can you add the pay date as a standing agenda item as a reminder.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I just texted him "Hey ____, don't forget about my timesheet from Oct 1 to 15".
> 
> ARGH!!!! I feel like such a pest! Like the kid in the candy store who keeps nagging mom for candy. UHHH I hate being a pain in the butt, I really do, this is not who I am!


The kid begging for candy didn't earn it.
He's not doing you a favor by paying you. You-earned-it.
For someone who says they are blunt you are the least blunt person I know, (not that I know you).


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## greentree

If these things are scheduled, then he SHOULD pay you before he leaves, even if it is early!!

I thought you always said you were blunt???

Maybe it would be easier if he paid you for a certain # of hours one check, then caught up the second check? 

So, every other check was a fixed amount(no thought required), then the second was the difference.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> You can do it without a visual.
> Put pad & saddle on. Before you tighten the saddle slide your left thumb or fingers under the front of the pad & lift it up towards the horn. It will make a little tent over her withers.
> Then tighten the saddle.


Oh interesting, thank you. I'm first going to try TinyLiny's suggestion first on putting just the saddle on first, a bit forward, then using the side of my hand, tap the front of the saddle lightly so it slides back and keep doing it until it moves no more (or moves a lot less generously). 

Then I will take it off, then do your suggestion.

So what does this lifting of the pad do? When you say lift it up towards the horn, you mean straight up? Because if I lift the front with the saddle on, the saddle's weight will keep it down lol. Sorry, I'm such a noob at this, I am embarassed. :-(


----------



## Hoofpic

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Do you write any checks for the business? If so, then I would total my time card, send it in for review 2 or 3 days before payday, with a Large Post It note that says, "PAY DAY IS OCT 1, thank you". or whatever day it falls on. On the day your pay is due, write a check to you and take it to him for signature. If you can't write the check yourself, then take him the checkbook. I'd also let him know that I was incurring late fees because of him and that I would be looking to him to pay them from on (even if you're not, it's just to get his attention). If it gets bad enough, and it sounds like it's heading there, I'd copy and paste your labor law pertaining to timely pay, on your time card.


No I do not write cheques for the business. When we need stuff (mostly electronics and camera gear), I bill it to his credit card.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Do you use an electronic calendar system like Outlook? If so, can you send him a recurring calendar appointment the day before payroll is due so he always sees it on his calendar?
> 
> Alternatively, do you have a weekly or bi-weekly check-in? If so, can you add the pay date as a standing agenda item as a reminder.


We use Outlook. Unfortunately, I don't think re-occuring reminders would help him, hard to say. I did consider doing this (set up a reminder for the 1st and 16th of every month), but do you think I should ask for his permission first?


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> The kid begging for candy didn't earn it.
> He's not doing you a favor by paying you. You-earned-it.
> For someone who says they are blunt you are the least blunt person I know, (not that I know you).


Trust me I am a very blunt person but I need to be careful with being a jerk. 

Am I annoyed having to constantly remind him to pay me? Yes of course.
But I do know that he easily forgets about stuff and puts them on the side when he has stuff on his plate. So I can be understanding and accomodating at times.

But I also would like for this habit to stop.

I know if it was me and I was paying someone working for me, that person would be paid first thing in the morning on each pay day. SHARP.


----------



## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> We use Outlook. Unfortunately, I don't think re-occuring reminders would help him, hard to say. I did consider doing this (set up a reminder for the 1st and 16th of every month), but do you think I should ask for his permission first?


I don't know your work environment. In mine, the people that I manage put appointments on my calendar all the time to remind me when they need me to review documents, give them feedback, etc., especially when it's time sensitive. They wouldn't ask for permission to add an appt to my calendar. 

If I were you, I'd send the calendar appt and follow up with a quick direct email that said, "Hey, I set up a calendar appt every other week with the timeline for payroll. This way we'll both remember when the day is here, and I'll follow up with you if for some reason the check doesn't come on time." This way, you establish in writing you're expecting things to be done on time, and if they're not, you're following up. This could help you in the future.

Though for the record, I think it's shi**y to mess with someone's paycheck and don't find that excusable, even for someone who's not "great at admin tasks."


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I don't know your work environment. In mine, the people that I manage put appointments on my calendar all the time to remind me when they need me to review documents, give them feedback, etc., especially when it's time sensitive. They wouldn't ask for permission to add an appt to my calendar.
> 
> If I were you, I'd send the calendar appt and follow up with a quick direct email that said, "Hey, I set up a calendar appt every other week with the timeline for payroll. This way we'll both remember when the day is here, and I'll follow up with you if for some reason the check doesn't come on time." This way, you establish in writing you're expecting things to be done on time, and if they're not, you're following up. This could help you in the future.
> 
> Though for the record, I think it's shi**y to mess with someone's paycheck and don't find that excusable, even for someone who's not "great at admin tasks."


Thanks, I'm considering doing that.

I don't get it either. I know he is not great at admin tasks and day to day stuff, but this just feels like a slap in my face.


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## greentree

So, you are looking for another job?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> So, you are looking for another job?


No why would I be? I like working for him and doing what I do and it will only get better. I just wish I didn't have to keep reminding him to pay my timesheets on time.


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## Hoofpic

Should I say something to one of my friends? Something is just not right with her. What would you say?


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Ive always been just putting the pad on her, then the saddle on top. I've never pulled the pad and I didn't know this. I would like to see how this is exactly done.


But when you were advised to pull the pad up into the gullet, you ask if it needs to be done each time you saddle. Why would it be done one time and not another? Do understand it is part of correct saddling and is done EVERY time?


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> But when you were advised to pull the pad up into the gullet, you ask if it needs to be done each time you saddle. Why would it be done one time and not another? Do understand it is part of correct saddling and is done EVERY time?


Yes I understand but I still don't get what pulling up the pad does exactly. Maybe I need to see it done first to know exactly what you guys mean. Sorry I am an idiot.


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## Whinnie

Try putting your hand under the part of the pad that is under the gullet which is under the horn, then raising your hand like you were going to raise the pad and saddle together, pushing against the pad which should push the pad into the gullet, making a tent over the withers. You should see space between her back and the pad in that area. No space between pad and gullet. The space between her back and the pad prevents the pad from being tight and rubbing on her shoulders.


----------



## natisha

Whinnie said:


> Try putting your hand under the part of the pad that is under the gullet which is under the horn, then raising your hand like you were going to raise the pad and saddle together, pushing against the pad which should push the pad into the gullet, making a tent over the withers. You should see space between her back and the pad in that area. No space between pad and gullet. The space between her back and the pad prevents the pad from being tight and rubbing on her shoulders.


Hoofpic, to understand the "why" as Whinnie already explained, saddle Fly normally then try to slip your hand under the pad at the withers. Then undo the cinch, pull up the pad & try again. 
After you do that you'll see why it's a good thing to do.


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## 6gun Kid

2 words* payroll service*


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> Try putting your hand under the part of the pad that is under the gullet which is under the horn, then raising your hand like you were going to raise the pad and saddle together, pushing against the pad which should push the pad into the gullet, making a tent over the withers. You should see space between her back and the pad in that area. No space between pad and gullet. The space between her back and the pad prevents the pad from being tight and rubbing on her shoulders.





natisha said:


> Hoofpic, to understand the "why" as Whinnie already explained, saddle Fly normally then try to slip your hand under the pad at the withers. Then undo the cinch, pull up the pad & try again.
> After you do that you'll see why it's a good thing to do.


I get it now, thank you. But when you sit on the saddle, wouldn't the weight of you close that gap from the pad to her withers? or does it actually stay?


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## Hoofpic

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Easy way to solve this. Before he goes on vacation, he makes out the checks and leaves hours & amounts blank. You scan the time sheets into the computer and email them to him, he calls and tells you how much to fill in for the amounts on the checks and pay stubs. Or, you estimate your hours i.e. You normally work 87 hours every 2 weeks, so that's what he makes the check for and he gives you a make up check if you're over or you work the amount of hours you were short over the next 2 weeks without extra pay or he pays for 80 and makes a catch up check when he returns. He's sounding irresponsible to me, I wouldn't stay somewhere I couldn't count on my pay on time.


I appreciate the suggestion but I think this would be more trouble than it's worth because it won't work for him. First of all, I gaurentee that he would forget to make out cheques before he leaves. Second, if he makes another cheque to catch up on hours when he returns, good luck with that. You would think something so important as paying your staff on time would be on the top of your list for the boss, but he just can't keep up without me constantly reminding him.

The good news is that he "has" paid me on time "several" times before. The bad news is that I've had to remind him just as many times and two pay periods back to back. What is up with that? I know he sincerely apologized for the last time that he accidentally put it aside and got carried away with other things, but you would think that he no longer wants to be hounded by me about it. I mean if I was in his shoes, I sure wouldn't want my staff to hound me about this. First, I'd never let it happen to begin with, but if I did, I would find it annoying and it would immediately tell me that I need to smarten up and get it together.

I do understand that he isn't doing this on purpose and it's just sincere honest mistakes of his. I've seen it, he really is terrible at day to day admin tasks (he's not what you would call a multi-tasker and in which I very much am).

I think having a helper for me will not help and perhaps change the tide. He now has to pay two of us starting on Nov 1, let's see if anything changes. I'm curious as to how the new guy will see and handle this situation. But knowing that he now has two guys to pay bi-weekly, I think now is the time for my boss to get his act together.


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## Hoofpic

Oops I meant, "I think having a helper for me *will possibly *help and perhaps change the tide."

We don't know how the new guy is going to handle this situation or how tolerant he is. He might get annoyed right off the bat and quit, who knows. And I can gaurentee you that my boss would not want to see anyone leave over something like this. Not that it wouldn't be a valid reason from that person's standpoint, but because he knows he would be solely responsible for that person leaving. So let's hope my boss get's his act together. If he was smart and proactive, he would get it together for Nov 1 and not have it happen again so that the new guy wouldn't even be aware of this bad trend.

I am not even considering leaving, but I will say that if I was to, my boss would be crushed because he would have a massive hole to fill as I do everything there and I am the cog that makes everything run. He would basically be screwed. I have knowledge in photography and videography that no other person in our group has and he would have a huge setback trying to find another person with my skillset who can fill so many shoes.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Hoofpic, to understand the "why" as Whinnie already explained, saddle Fly normally then try to slip your hand under the pad at the withers. Then undo the cinch, pull up the pad & try again.
> After you do that you'll see why it's a good thing to do.


I'm confident that I know what to do now, I might even take a short video of it when I try it tonight just to be sure.

The only thing I'm confused about is, of all the people that I've seen saddling up horses. Why has no one ever done this? Is it just a trick that not a lot of people know? Or maybe they do but they just overlook it?


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## greentree

Ancient HorseForum secret....


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## egrogan

I don't know, but I ride English and everyone I know does this. When I teach kids or beginner adults how to tack up, this is part of it.


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I get it now, thank you. But when you sit on the saddle, wouldn't the weight of you close that gap from the pad to her withers? or does it actually stay?


It stays Hoofpic. When you don't tent it up into the gullet, it adds pressure across the withers that will lead to soreness. On the rare occasions my husband forgot to do this, Izzie has let him know. It needs to be in your daily tacking up process.

And not the best pictures, but they will do. The black and white one was after I'd ridden my class and was in line up. The one with my daughter was after a training ride at the fairgrounds.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I'm confident that I know what to do now, I might even take a short video of it when I try it tonight just to be sure.
> 
> The only thing I'm confused about is, of all the people that I've seen saddling up horses. Why has no one ever done this? Is it just a trick that not a lot of people know? Or maybe they do but they just overlook it?


It is not a "trick", it is proper saddling. Yes, some people are lazy or don't care and don't do it. Their horses suffer from it. Maybe you have not watched very many people saddle, or maybe you did not notice this step when watching, but I was taught this over 40 years ago.

You should learn how to search for information on the net. It appears it is easier for you to watch things rather than understand written explanation. I just put "image of saddle pad pulled up into gullet" in the search bar and found pictures and videos. Very easy to research stuff.


----------



## egrogan

Here's another example, in an English saddle:









And still up there even with me in the saddle:


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> So my current pay is 3 days late, are you saying that I should text him to remind him again even though I just did the same thing for the last pay? Wouldn't I come across as a pest?





Hoofpic said:


> Should I say something to one of my friends? Something is just not right with her. What would you say?


Why are you always so worried about bothering other people?
Paydays aren't a favor, they're a requirement. Why would you feel bad about asking for something you're owed?
If you have a friend who's acting funny, why are you so hesitant to ask them if anything is wrong?
It's really easy, you literally just say, "Hey, are you doing alright? You seem off today."
Stop making things a big deal.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Ancient HorseForum secret....


Okay thanks. That would explain why I've never seen anyone do it.


----------



## Prairie

Hoopic;9487618]Okay thanks. That would explain why I've never seen anyone do it.[/QUOTE]


LOL, greentree was joking! However this technique of pulling the saddle pad up into the gullet has been around since before the late 1950's when I first started taking lessons. This is why we've advised you to read books and search on the internet for information to increase your knowledge of equines. You don't have the knowledge and experience to recognize when something you're doing is wrong so need to do the research rather than just assume whatever someone told you is correct or think that the way you are doing something is the only proper way to do it.


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## PoptartShop

How's Fly today?


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> How's Fly today?


I was going to see her today but I will go tomorrow instead because my left eye is bothering me again. It gets dry every now and then and it gives me a watery eye. Very annoying. I have good eye drops and I put that in and it helps for a few minutes. Only way to get rid of it is let my eye cry out with my head tilted laying down. The good news is that the next day after a sleep its always gone and back to normal.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> It stays Hoofpic. When you don't tent it up into the gullet, it adds pressure across the withers that will lead to soreness. On the rare occasions my husband forgot to do this, Izzie has let him know. It needs to be in your daily tacking up process.
> 
> And not the best pictures, but they will do. The black and white one was after I'd ridden my class and was in line up. The one with my daughter was after a training ride at the fairgrounds.


Thanks, I didn't know that but I do now! I will make it a habit each time I saddle Fly for now on. Let's see if i can manage to do it properly tomorrow. You guys can watch the video and provide feedback. If it's as straight forward as it now sounds, pretty much I am grabbing the front of the pad and pulling it straight to the roof when the saddle is on. Then tighten the cinch.


----------



## Hoofpic




----------



## PoptartShop

Oh I know what you mean. Could be allergies. They're the worst! 
Hopefully you have a good ride tomorrow. A video would be nice!

Beautiful picture!


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> It is not a "trick", it is proper saddling. Yes, some people are lazy or don't care and don't do it. Their horses suffer from it. Maybe you have not watched very many people saddle, or maybe you did not notice this step when watching, but I was taught this over 40 years ago.
> 
> You should learn how to search for information on the net. It appears it is easier for you to watch things rather than understand written explanation. I just put "image of saddle pad pulled up into gullet" in the search bar and found pictures and videos. Very easy to research stuff.


I haven't had time to look up videos of it, I will try before I go to the barn tomorrow. 

I've watched lots of people saddle. Everyone that Ive seen just throw the pad on, then saddle. Some are even through and drop the saddle down on the horse's back.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> LOL, greentree was joking! However this technique of pulling the saddle pad up into the gullet has been around since before the late 1950's when I first started taking lessons. This is why we've advised you to read books and search on the internet for information to increase your knowledge of equines. You don't have the knowledge and experience to recognize when something you're doing is wrong so need to do the research rather than just assume whatever someone told you is correct or think that the way you are doing something is the only proper way to do it..


Oh okay. And yes I don't have the knowledge and experience yet to reconize when something I'm doing is wrong. I would say the only reason why I didn't research it was because essentially my trainer was the person who taught me how to saddle.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I haven't had time to look up videos of it, I will try before I go to the barn tomorrow.
> 
> *In my 30 second search, I found 4 videos about 3 minutes in length and numerous pictures and drawings. Didn't take much time at all.*
> 
> I've watched lots of people saddle. Everyone that Ive seen just throw the pad on, then saddle. Some are even through and drop the saddle down on the horse's back.


 
*How many exactly have you carefully watched saddle a horse? Unless you recognize what you are seeing, it is easy to miss recognizing that step. Your trainer is remiss, if she knew you did not knw how to saddle, for not showing you. Ask her about the method, I am interested in her reply.*


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Here's another example, in an English saddle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And still up there even with me in the saddle:


Thanks, that gives me a very clear idea of what it should look like after.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Why are you always so worried about bothering other people?
> Paydays aren't a favor, they're a requirement. Why would you feel bad about asking for something you're owed?
> If you have a friend who's acting funny, why are you so hesitant to ask them if anything is wrong?
> It's really easy, you literally just say, "Hey, are you doing alright? You seem off today."
> Stop making things a big deal.


I'm almost certain that my friend is keeping her distance from me (why is beyond me). But she just isn't the same person over the past 3 weeks. I don't want to ask her if anything is wrong, I will sound obsessive and worried. It's not like we are dating. If we are dating then yes it would be another story.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Oh I know what you mean. Could be allergies. They're the worst!
> Hopefully you have a good ride tomorrow. A video would be nice!
> 
> Beautiful picture!


Not sure what it is, I don't think it's allergies, but then again the last time that I had an allergy test done was 6 or 7 years ago.

But my eyes are fine now. Wierd. It's very annoying that's all especially if you have to work or be in a super brightly lit environment.


----------



## Hoofpic

See this is the BS that annoys the hell out of me. I texted my boss last night around this time reminding him to pay my timesheet for Oct 1-15th and he hasn't even got back to me yet. I know he's busy, but come on!


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I'm almost certain that my friend is keeping her distance from me (why is beyond me). But she just isn't the same person over the past 3 weeks. I don't want to ask her if anything is wrong, I will sound obsessive and worried. It's not like we are dating. If we are dating then yes it would be another story.


_Seriously_? You'll sound "obsessive and worried" for asking if everything's alright with her?
You can only ask if someone is doing alright if you're _dating_?
Look, like I said before, if you don't want to make the effort to be friends with people, that's fine, but don't act like you're doing them some sort of favor by ignoring them when they're having a rough time.
Why bother worrying about her at all if you're not going to do anything about it?
Either be her friend or don't, what's really obnoxious/insulting is putting in the minimum amount of effort.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> See this is the BS that annoys the hell out of me. I texted my boss last night around this time reminding him to pay my timesheet for Oct 1-15th and he hasn't even got back to me yet. I know he's busy, but come on!


This is why I asked if you were looking for a new job....the only reason I do not pay bills is if I don't have the money...


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> This is why I asked if you were looking for a new job....the only reason I do not pay bills is if I don't have the money...


My boss has the money, he's very wealthy. He's just being an irresponsible careless idiot about this all. Over the past month he's been the busiest that I've seen him, but it still doesn't excuse him for forgetting not once but twice!

Like seriously after the last pay being 5 days late after I reminded him the following week and he said sorry and that he did forget about it. I would have thought that was the breaking point in terms of him getting his act together, not do the exact same thing the following pay period. Like how does someone make that mistake TWICE in a row? Plain old carelessness.

It will be interesting to see how the new guy handles it. Either my boss finally smartens up and gets his act together or he continues on and he ****es off the new guy and now he has two people hounding him to pay their timesheets. And I just met the new guy, I don't know him well enough yet to know how he will handle it. Maybe he will be a jerk about it and give the boss attitude. Time will tell.

The first pay cheque that the new guy receives should be on Nov 1, that is coming right up. Let's see if he gets it on time.

But seriously, the last pay period, when he finally paid me after I reminded him (he deposited it 3 days after I reminded him), I was ****ed off. And right now, seeing how this exact same thing is happening again not even 2 weeks after, has made me even more upset. I AM ****ED!!!


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## greentree

Being wealthy and having cash on hand are two different things....

Why don't you research the payroll services, as 6gunkid suggested, make a nice presentration out of it, and give it to your boss? Show him how much effort it will save him! Does he have office staff that gets paid, too??


----------



## sarahfromsc

The new guy better be a 'jerk' ( your words) if y'all want paid in a timely manner. 

Plus the new guy won't be a 'jerk' in my book demanding his due in a timely manner. Besides, it is the squeaky wheel that gets the oil.

Personally I would not put up with that crap.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Being wealthy and having cash on hand are two different things....
> 
> Why don't you research the payroll services, as 6gunkid suggested, make a nice presentration out of it, and give it to your boss? Show him how much effort it will save him! Does he have office staff that gets paid, too??


He doesn't want a payroll service right now because there are not enough staff (there will be very soon though, but most aren't paid bi-weekly but are contracted out), so I'm not sure how he pays them. I was the only one to be paid bi-weekly for the past 6 or 7 months because I was the only F/T person, and now the new guy joins so it will be two.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> The new guy better be a 'jerk' ( your words) if y'all want paid in a timely manner.
> 
> Plus the new guy won't be a 'jerk' in my book demanding his due in a timely manner. Besides, it is the squeaky wheel that gets the oil.
> 
> Personally I would not put up with that crap.


You know I was just thinking to myself, what if, just "what if" I was to tell the new guy (don't worry I am not going to), that oh, his new boss will not pay him on time and he is going to need reminders because he has such pathetic time management. Heck, can you even call it time management? I don't think you can. It's just pathetic common sense. I mean this is very basic stuff that we are talking about here. Stuff that we all learn in our childhood and throughout our early adulthood - learning how to take on responsibility. I'm not asking him to run a marathon for me. I'm asking him to go to the god **** bank! 

How do you think the new guy is going to feel if I was to tell him that? I wouldn't do it anyways, the boss would be choked if he was to ever find out.

I'm not worried that he won't pay me, I know he will, it's just when. I'm just ****ed off that he still needs to be babysat on basic basic stuff. Seriously, get your god **** act together, you are a grown adult. I can't believe that any human being on this planet can possess such a pathetic attempt in taking on day to day stuff. I mean it is just disgraceful.


----------



## tinaev

Hoofpic said:


> See this is the BS that annoys the hell out of me. I texted my boss last night around this time reminding him to pay my timesheet for Oct 1-15th and he hasn't even got back to me yet. I know he's busy, but come on!


This is completely unacceptable for an employer. You have a set pay period with set dates that you are to be paid. He is not holding up his end of the bargain. It doesn't matter that he's busy or not good with paperwork or whatever. It simply isn't ok. I have worked for small businesses with fewer than 5 employees for the last 12 years of my life. Never once has my pay check been late! Payroll is payroll and it's to be taken seriously. If my boss randomly decided not to give me my paycheck until several days after I was to have it I'd be giving him a bill for the late fees I'd be incurring on my bills. The mortgage company doesn't care if your boss isn't good at "admin stuff". If he can't get it together he needs to get a payroll company to do this for him. It isn't hard at all and it will ensure that good employees stay with the business.

You may even want to look into the labor laws in your country. What he is doing could very well be illegal, it would be in my state.


----------



## greentree

Ummmm, now you kinda know how WE feel....


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Ummmm, now you kinda know how WE feel....


I don't get it. Are you saying I'm doing the same with you guys on here?


----------



## greentree

3 pages about lifting the front of the saddle pad into the gullet???? Yes.


----------



## Whinnie

greentree said:


> 3 pages about lifting the front of the saddle pad into the gullet???? Yes.


Bingo!


----------



## egrogan

I don't think you should say any of that to the new person. If you feel that strongly, book a meeting with the boss, tell him your concerns directly.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> 3 pages about lifting the front of the saddle pad into the gullet???? Yes.


It's not my fault that it takes longer for me to understand some things. Everyone learns differently.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I don't think you should say any of that to the new person. If you feel that strongly, book a meeting with the boss, tell him your concerns directly.


Don't worry I wouldn't say that to the new person, I've never even considered it. Let's see how things go once the new guy is onboard. I am giving the benefit of the doubt that hopefully my boss will have his act together.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> It's not my fault that it takes longer for me to understand some things. Everyone learns differently.


Maybe your boss learns the same way as you. If your way of learning is watching, then it would be better and faster for you to learn how to find pictures and videos to answer your questions instead of becoming confused with the written advice here. I bet if you put your mind to it, you could learn how to search for videos/pictures.


----------



## Hoofpic

I got pictures, lots. 

Got my friend to hold the pad while I put the saddle on and tightened. Hoping the pad has the new footprint.

My friend knew about the pulling up the front of the pad trick. I did it and I didnt take a video because im almost certain I did it correctly.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I got pictures, lots.
> 
> Got my friend to hold the pad while I put the saddle on and tightened. Hoping the pad has the new footprint.
> 
> My friend knew about the pulling up the front of the pad trick. I did it and I didnt take a video because im almost certain I did it correctly.


Why wouldn't the pad conform? It isn't made of cement. It didn't have her footprint (back conformation) before you used it the first time. Try to think with logic.


----------



## Hoofpic

i rode with one of my friends this afternoon just in the arena (not the one who is considering leaving).

Anyways, tomorrow two of her friends (who board elsewhere) are trailering their horses to our barn and they will all be riding down to the cooley (which is where, or close where my trainer and I rode on Wed). She invited me to come along. 

I wasn't going to ride Fly tomorrow but my trainer said it would be a good experience for me and that I should go.


----------



## Hoofpic

Here you go, hopefully it's not too much. This was after I pulled the front of the pad upwards into the gullet/free. I put one hand on the tree and the other on the front of the pad and pulled up the pad up to the sky.

I tried TinyLiny's suggestion on first putting the saddle on her and using the side of my hand just tap the front of the saddle until it slows and it will seat into place. It didn't work for me. 

As for where exactly the saddle needs to be on Fly, will be finally answered this Monday when the massage lady comes out. That day can't come soon enough.

I get so many compliments on her halter hehe.


































Cinch all tight.


----------



## greentree

I would skooch it back another inch. It is hard to see her shoulder....we really needed to see it without the pad!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I would skooch it back another inch. It is hard to see her shoulder....we really needed to see it without the pad!


Oh I thought you wanted it WITH the pad. Okay I will take more today without the pad.


----------



## greentree

The pad is covering the part of her shoulder that needs to be seen to get the saddle properly positioned, since we are not there to feel under it. When the chiropracter is there, get her to SHOW you (and describe to you) WHY she is doing what she does.

If she says, "Tha saddle needs to be HERE" , you say ,"Why?" 

Ask her to show you the back of the scapula, where Fly's withers END, and where her loin begins and ends. 

You can google "points of the horse" , and find the 4-H or pony club diagrams, print them out, and really learn them. They are even out there with blank lines, so that you can test yourself. 

Doing these things would be much more useful than worrying about other things.....print several, and do them as a group at the barn! Make a drinking game out of it!!!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> The pad is covering the part of her shoulder that needs to be seen to get the saddle properly positioned, since we are not there to feel under it. When the chiropracter is there, get her to SHOW you (and describe to you) WHY she is doing what she does.
> 
> If she says, "Tha saddle needs to be HERE" , you say ,"Why?"
> 
> Ask her to show you the back of the scapula, where Fly's withers END, and where her loin begins and ends.
> 
> You can google "points of the horse" , and find the 4-H or pony club diagrams, print them out, and really learn them. They are even out there with blank lines, so that you can test yourself.
> 
> Doing these things would be much more useful than worrying about other things.....print several, and do them as a group at the barn! Make a drinking game out of it!!!


I will do all of that thanks. I know that I have printed off diagrams before and brought them to the barn but I suck at pinpointing where they are on Fly. Sitting in on a few more lectures on horse anatomy should really help for me.


----------



## bsms

Slide your hand under the pad in the front, and let her walk. FEEL the shoulder moving. Does it create pressure as it slides under the saddle? Then the saddle is too far forward. Is there a huge gap between her shoulder (which goes back when the foot goes forward)? The saddle is too far back. Don't do this if your horse might spook.

A long discussion with pictures from a custom saddle tree maker is here:

Rethinking saddle fit and shoulder blade movement

I don't know if I agree with them. If in doubt, I'd prefer my saddle slightly aft than too far forward. But a lot depends on the horse's back and the specific saddle, and most of us cannot afford custom saddles for every horse all through their lives...


----------



## Hoofpic

The Mane Event is this weekend in BC, started Friday and today is the last day. After I attended the one in Red Deer this past April I was planning on driving out to BC to attend the one this weekend but after a lot of thinking I decided not to go because of the cost. I just didn't want to spend $400 on a hotel for 4 nights. Because if I did go, I would have had to leave on Thurs and come back Monday. Hotels aren't cheap there and for what I would spend for 4 nights, it's a whole months board. Plus factor in at least $200 more for gas and then food and I couldn't justified the money spent for it. 

So I will wait and attend the one next April back in Red Deer. Who knows maybe I will have a friend come along.

But I am following their Facebook Page for updates, looks like so much fun.

Take a look at the Canadian Cowgirls video, WOW!


----------



## Whinnie

You don't have to sit in on a few horse anatomy lectures if you can read and look at pictures/diagrams. It is very simple.


----------



## Hoofpic

I did it! 2hours and 10mins with one of my friends and two of her friends who trailered their horses here.

They loved Fly eapecially her halter. This girl has become a barn favourite

Couple new experiences for me. I can go more in detail later.


----------



## Hoofpic

The ride went well. I wasn't going to go, but my trainer told me yesterday that it would be a good experience and we don't have too many nice days left for this year, so I went. 

It wasn't too warm out, there was a cold wind and I just wore my coat. 

We went the same path where my trainer and I went last Wed, and we went a bit further in another direction.

We were riding and there were a couple other riders out as well (well into the field) but we could still spot them. They were riders from the english jumping barn down the road. Fly kept wanting to look and then all of a sudden would trot back the direction of home, but I immediately corrected her and brought her back down to a walk and circled her back. The second time that she tried to trot back home, she cantered! lol I did the same thing and told her "easy" and then told her to "walk and did a circle back. 

When she saw the horses, she was so caught up in them that I told her a couple times to walk on and she wouldn't respond so I gave her a sharp wack on her hind with the crop and she complied. Not hard but firm and definitely harder than previous rides on the road.

When we went another direction, we past a small herd of 3 horses (none of us expected horses there) and they were all excited, running along the fence and Fly constantly had her head turned to look at them but I just kept tickling the left rein to get her focus back on me. 


She still did really well but was she as calm and relaxed as she was on Wed with the trainer? No. There could have been several factors but do you guys think that riding with two completely new horses that she doesn't know and hasn't seen before is one of them?


----------



## greentree

No, the problem is still that no one is taking the lead. You essentially praised the horse for making u turn and trying to run back to the barn. I ride with new horses all the time, and they act the same as they do at home.

That sort of behavior should be corrected WAY before it gets to trot , or canter.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> No, the problem is still that no one is taking the lead. You essentially praised the horse for making u turn and trying to run back to the barn. I ride with new horses all the time, and they act the same as they do at home.
> 
> That sort of behavior should be corrected WAY before it gets to trot , or canter.


I corrected her as soon as I felt her to pick up a trot. Strong on the reins and was firm with her. 

Why do you think she was doing this? Did she really feel threatened by the other horses? The good news is that she did eventually stop.


----------



## Hoofpic

I hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't. I took them at the end of the ride after we got back. I didn't do it up, I hope that doesn't matter.

The massage lady is out tomorrow, so finally the day has come.


----------



## greentree

She did this because she COULD!!! You allowed it to happen. And you allowed her to EVENTUALLY stop??? 

My suggestion is to not leave the arena, until you learn to control the horse. What are you going to do if she does NOT eventually stop? 

Sorry, THAT is not the good news.....


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't. I took them at the end of the ride after we got back. I didn't do it up, I hope that doesn't matter.
> 
> The massage lady is out tomorrow, so finally the day has come.


That is exactly where it needs to be!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> She did this because she COULD!!! You allowed it to happen. And you allowed her to EVENTUALLY stop???
> 
> My suggestion is to not leave the arena, until you learn to control the horse. What are you going to do if she does NOT eventually stop?
> 
> Sorry, THAT is not the good news.....


Would you have used the crop on her and give her a real hard smack on the HQ?

I dont get why she was trying to go the direction of home when she saw those two horses in the distance?

Today would have been a great day to have my trainer with me.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't. I took them at the end of the ride after we got back. I didn't do it up, I hope that doesn't matter.
> 
> The massage lady is out tomorrow, so finally the day has come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is exactly where it needs to be!
Click to expand...

Thanks. I wish I could paint marks on her barrel to label it lol.

So do you think the saddle is too big for her?


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Have you ever considered sending fly to a trainer to put proper miles on her while you get lessons on another horse ?


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I wish I could paint marks on her barrel to label it lol.
> 
> So do you think the saddle is too big for her?


There is no way to really tell from only pictures,....


----------



## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> I dont get why she was trying to go the direction of home when she saw those two horses in the distance?


Most likely because she felt insecure in that situation and the barn means safety/comfort to her.. so she was heading there to escape the 'danger' she felt those horses represented. That is not an uncommon reaction for a green horse at all.

However, the spook and spin reaction is something you will have to be very careful about, as it can escalate into a dangerous situation for a beginner rider. What did the other horses you were riding with do when that happened? Was Fly the only one to turn for home?


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Have you ever considered sending fly to a trainer to put proper miles on her while you get lessons on another horse ?


Yes and my trainer would put more miles on her. She has last Fall when I got to the barn.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> There is no way to really tell from only pictures,....


Okay, well I guess I will find out tomorrow.


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> Most likely because she felt insecure in that situation and the barn means safety/comfort to her.. so she was heading there to escape the 'danger' she felt those horses represented. That is not an uncommon reaction for a green horse at all.
> 
> However, the spook and spin reaction is something you will have to be very careful about, as it can escalate into a dangerous situation for a beginner rider. What did the other horses you were riding with do when that happened? Was Fly the only one to turn for home?


I wouldn't say that she spooked and spinned, she just started trotting to home but it wasn't for anymore than 15ft the first time and less as it happened. 

The other horses didn't do anything. The first time it happened, I lost sight of those guys after and they had to turn back to find me. We were in a huge open field but there were some hills. Yes Fly was the only one to turn for home. 

In a way, I want to mention this to my trainer but in another way I feel that it might not be a good idea. There is no question that she was feeling something (negative energy) from the other horses with us. I'm not blaming them, but I know she didn't like two of them because she was pinning her ears at them and one time she threatened to kick out but I used the crop to make sure she didn't get close enough and told her to quit it.

But on Wed with the trainer, she was nothing like this. In fact my trainer was so impressed how calm Fly was. 

I'm not saying she was bad today, just different from Wednesday and almost certain the other horses was the biggest factor.

But the rest of the way she was great!


----------



## greentree

There was NO negative energy from the other horses!!!


----------



## phantomhorse13

Fly is having to deal with many new things at once. That isn't good or bad - simply a statement of fact. This is a situation where your being a beginner rider makes it hard, as you are not experienced enough to pick up the subtle clues she is likely giving about her mental state. And her mental state likely changes dramatically from one moment to the next as she is green and unsure. As you meet each new situation together, you will gain more confidence (and hopefully so will she).. but just because she was calm one time does not necessarily mean she will be calm the next time.

I would definitely talk to your trainer about what happened. She knows you and Fly better than any of us here do and I think her advice could be very helpful.


----------



## Hoofpic

Hey Warwick Schiller from this weekend's Mane Event. I wish I could have gone. It looks like they put on a great show.

I didn't know Warwick is into Cowboy Challenge.

I need to start watching his library of videos again.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> There was NO negative energy from the other horses!!!


Well once we started the ride, Fly was a bit more hesistant right from the get go even going down the driveway, but I kept squeezing with my legs and looked forward to where I wanted us to go and told her to walk and she did.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Hey Warwick Schiller from this weekend's Mane Event. I wish I could have gone. It looks like they put on a great show.
> 
> I didn't know Warwick is into Cowboy Challenge.
> 
> I need to start watching his library of videos again.


He does look quite confident, stepping into that PVC pipe thing!!!!


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> Fly is having to deal with many new things at once. That isn't good or bad - simply a statement of fact.


That's what I figured too. I know my trainer told me yesterday that it would be a beneficial for me to tag along with my friend today, but do you think it was? I hope it wasn't detrimental to Fly and I. There are still lots of good things that came out of today's 2 hour ride though.



> This is a situation where your being a beginner rider makes it hard, as you are not experienced enough to pick up the subtle clues she is likely giving about her mental state. And her mental state likely changes dramatically from one moment to the next as she is green and unsure. As you meet each new situation together, you will gain more confidence (and hopefully so will she).. but just because she was calm one time does not necessarily mean she will be calm the next time.


And this is why my trainer knows that I want her and I to do these rides together because she can provide me that guidance right there in the moment, on the spot. Could I have used her today? Of course and I wish she was there. 

Perhaps she made the wrong call by saying that I should go ride today. Perhaps I'm ready for riding on the road, but not yet for riding in open fields or on trails. Maybe she jumped the gun too soon.

And yes, I'm no longer surprised or taken back when Fly acts differently on two different days because I know horses aren't machines and what you get one day, isn't what you will get the next. WHich is fine by me, I've adapted.



> I would definitely talk to your trainer about what happened. She knows you and Fly better than any of us here do and I think her advice could be very helpful.


Okay.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> He does look quite confident, stepping into that PVC pipe thing!!!!


Warwick is awesome. If I was to ever pay my ticket to attend one of these live demos with Fly, I would go see him. I'd love to do something like this (just imagine the experience for Fly and I, it would be unreal), but I'd never be brave enough to accept having all these people watching and judging me). I don't even like having two sets of eyes on me, how would I be okay with having hundreds of strangers.

It's just unfortunate that he will never draw the crowds that someone like Parelli does. I much prefer Warwick.


----------



## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> I know my trainer told me yesterday that it would be a beneficial for me to tag along with my friend today, but do you think it was? I hope it wasn't detrimental to Fly and I. There are still lots of good things that came out of today's 2 hour ride though.


I think as long as you learned something and nobody got hurt, then it was a good thing. Not every learning experience is a positive one.. sometimes the best you can do is figure out what didn't work and know to try something else next time!

Now you know that Fly may decide to go home when she sees something new. So next time, be ready for that with a jiggle of rein and a bit of leg. In the best case, you keep her from getting turned for home and leaving. Worst case, you just took a momentary detour from your original route which can easily be corrected.

There is a fine line between being aware of potential spooky objects and focusing on them to the point that you "make" a horse spook. The difference is going to come with experience.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Yes and my trainer would put more miles on her. She has last Fall when I got to the barn.


I'm talking about sending her away to someone for a period of time so they can consistently ride her on trails etc and put loads of miles on her


----------



## StephaniHren

I don't think it's a bad thing that you went out on the trails with some friends from the barn. In fact, I think riding independently from your trainer in new situations is a good thing. It gives you a chance to find problems that you'd like to tackle in later lessons with your trainer's support, and helps you build up a "bank" of reactions for different problems you encounter.

I would definitely talk to your trainer about what happened and ask for her recommendation on how you should have responded to Fly trying to book it for home while you were riding her.

Personally, I think your corrections could have been harsher. It sounds like she got away with more than she should have. It's one thing to spook, where things happen really fast, but it's another for her to physically make the decision to try and go home and for you to allow it to get to the point where she's trotting/cantering away. You can bet if my horse tried to bully me like that, he'd get a lesson in proper trail etiquette. Ideally you have to stop these problems before they start, the moment you feel your horse starting to stray.

As a side note, any horse that dares to run off with me like Fly tried to do with you wouldn't just get a humored "walk" and some light walking circles. He'd be backing up so hard his butt would be scraping the ground. My #1 rule is that every horse I get on _has_ to respect the "WHOA". Ignoring the brakes is the biggest transgression my horse can make against me when I'm on him.

The new horses didn't have a bearing on the situation, so stop trying to blame them/use them as an excuse to get out of future rides. My horse rides beside horses he's never met before all the time, and he does it politely because he knows that's what I expect from him. I don't care what happens, it's his job to keep his cool. I've had to emergency dismount off of him when a big Belgian Draft got loose in the arena and came barreling towards us, and you can bet your hat that he stood stock still and waited for my next command while I sorted out the whole debacle. Not every ride is going to be "calm and relaxed", but I always have a standard that my horse is being held to and I expect him to comply to it and be focused on me no matter what's happening around us. I don't make excuses for him, I make firm corrections so that he knows how he's supposed to be performing.

You said that you have come to expect that Fly will act differently on two different days and that you've adapted to it... but that's the wrong sort of thinking, in my opinion. My horse adapts to me, not the other way around. Sure, I recognize he's not a machine and I understand when he's having a rough day and adjust my goals accordingly, but the underlying structure of "safe, sane, reliable" never wavers, no matter how he's feeling.

Like Greentree said, it's easy to say that you're the leader, but times like this is when you really find out who's leading who. You can bet a horse that respects you wouldn't have tried that, but she knows she might be able to get away with it, so she gives it a shot. Again, you allowed it to happen—you don't have to beat yourself up about it, but you have to recognize that you could have handled the situation better and learn how to handle it correctly in the future.



Rainaisabelle said:


> Have you ever considered sending fly to a trainer to put proper miles on her while you get lessons on another horse ?


What Raina's talking about here isn't just having your instructor put a few rides on her and calling it good.

My horse was pretty darn arena green when I got him (and he's still wobbly some days), but he's mellow enough and I'm experienced enough that my trainer can put a few tune up rides on him a week and we're still getting a lot of progress done. I do the majority of the daily work and my trainer gives him more targeted rides and then gives me pointers on what she's been working on with him during my weekly lessons so that I can school him on that stuff throughout the week.

It's different with you and Fly because of how inexperienced you both are. Fly needs finishing, sure, but she also needs what I call "exposure". There's a big difference between finishing and exposure work. When I'm putting finishing work on my horse, I'm teaching him laterals, fixing his gaits, working on transitions, etc. When I'm doing exposure stuff with him, I'm taking him out and introducing him to new, potentially scary situations (like that one time we rode in the warm up ring at a barrel competition and he spooked at a Shetland Pony with bright pink tack on, ha ha).

Fly needs both kinds of work, and you're not overly qualified to do either. The first time a horse encounters something or attempts a bad behavior is formative. No correction (or the _wrong_ correction) can lay the foundations for an ingrained bad behavior. When you have a green horse, it's really important that all of the basics are taught very, _very_ well.

You might consider having a professional trainer put a serious 30 days on her (where the trainer in question rides the horse daily and you have weekly lessons with the trainer and Fly). Full time training can give you a completely changed (and much safer/more fun) mount. I feel like you've had Fly for long enough now that a trail ride down the lane shouldn't be a problem if you've progressed as much as you guys should have. You could probably both benefit from some professional attention—her from an experienced rider and you from a well-versed lesson horse with a similar personality to Fly's.


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> I think as long as you learned something and nobody got hurt, then it was a good thing. Not every learning experience is a positive one.. sometimes the best you can do is figure out what didn't work and know to try something else next time!
> 
> Now you know that Fly may decide to go home when she sees something new. So next time, be ready for that with a jiggle of rein and a bit of leg. In the best case, you keep her from getting turned for home and leaving. Worst case, you just took a momentary detour from your original route which can easily be corrected.
> 
> There is a fine line between being aware of potential spooky objects and focusing on them to the point that you "make" a horse spook. The difference is going to come with experience.


Yip, it's a good experience moving forward forsure.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I'm talking about sending her away to someone for a period of time so they can consistently ride her on trails etc and put loads of miles on her


Again, like I said, my trainer would do it. She is more than capable finishing Fly next Spring if i wanted her to.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't. I took them at the end of the ride after we got back. I didn't do it up, I hope that doesn't matter.
> 
> The massage lady is out tomorrow, so finally the day has come.


The first thing I notice is how the back sits higher than the front. This tells me the saddle is too wide. Also, there doesn't seem to be much wither clearance at the pommel.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I don't think it's a bad thing that you went out on the trails with some friends from the barn. In fact, I think riding independently from your trainer in new situations is a good thing. It gives you a chance to find problems that you'd like to tackle in later lessons with your trainer's support, and helps you build up a "bank" of reactions for different problems you encounter.


Yes I agree. It would have been the perfect ride to have my trainer with me, but it's too late now. Moving on now.



> I would definitely talk to your trainer about what happened and ask for her recommendation on how you should have responded to Fly trying to book it for home while you were riding her.
> 
> Personally, I think your corrections could have been harsher. It sounds like she got away with more than she should have. It's one thing to spook, where things happen really fast, but it's another for her to physically make the decision to try and go home and for you to allow it to get to the point where she's trotting/cantering away. You can bet if my horse tried to bully me like that, he'd get a lesson in proper trail etiquette. Ideally you have to stop these problems before they start, the moment you feel your horse starting to stray.
> 
> As a side note, any horse that dares to run off with me like Fly tried to do with you wouldn't just get a humored "walk" and some light walking circles. He'd be backing up so hard his butt would be scraping the ground. My #1 rule is that every horse I get on _has_ to respect the "WHOA". Ignoring the brakes is the biggest transgression my horse can make against me when I'm on him.
> 
> The new horses didn't have a bearing on the situation, so stop trying to blame them/use them as an excuse to get out of future rides. My horse rides beside horses he's never met before all the time, and he does it politely because he knows that's what I expect from him. I don't care what happens, it's his job to keep his cool. I've had to emergency dismount off of him when a big Belgian Draft got loose in the arena and came barreling towards us, and you can bet your hat that he stood stock still and waited for my next command while I sorted out the whole debacle. Not every ride is going to be "calm and relaxed", but I always have a standard that my horse is being held to and I expect him to comply to it and be focused on me no matter what's happening around us. I don't make excuses for him, I make firm corrections so that he knows how he's supposed to be performing.


I did escalate after each time but not enough. 

I wouldn't say that she just tried to head home randomly, but it wasn't until we spotted other riders in a distance. Other than that, she didn't try it again.



> You said that you have come to expect that Fly will act differently on two different days and that you've adapted to it... but that's the wrong sort of thinking, in my opinion. My horse adapts to me, not the other way around. Sure, I recognize he's not a machine and I understand when he's having a rough day and adjust my goals accordingly, but the underlying structure of "safe, sane, reliable" never wavers, no matter how he's feeling.


What I meant sorry was, I don't "expect" her to act differently on two different days, but if she does to not be surprised. But realistically I expect more so the same day to day.



> Like Greentree said, it's easy to say that you're the leader, but times like this is when you really find out who's leading who. You can bet a horse that respects you wouldn't have tried that, but she knows she might be able to get away with it, so she gives it a shot. Again, you allowed it to happen—you don't have to beat yourself up about it, but you have to recognize that you could have handled the situation better and learn how to handle it correctly in the future.


Well now I know. As long as I learn from my past mistakes, and I do, that's the most important so it doesn't happen again.



> What Raina's talking about here isn't just having your instructor put a few rides on her and calling it good.
> 
> My horse was pretty darn arena green when I got him (and he's still wobbly some days), but he's mellow enough and I'm experienced enough that my trainer can put a few tune up rides on him a week and we're still getting a lot of progress done. I do the majority of the daily work and my trainer gives him more targeted rides and then gives me pointers on what she's been working on with him during my weekly lessons so that I can school him on that stuff throughout the week.
> 
> It's different with you and Fly because of how inexperienced you both are. Fly needs finishing, sure, but she also needs what I call "exposure". There's a big difference between finishing and exposure work. When I'm putting finishing work on my horse, I'm teaching him laterals, fixing his gaits, working on transitions, etc. When I'm doing exposure stuff with him, I'm taking him out and introducing him to new, potentially scary situations (like that one time we rode in the warm up ring at a barrel competition and he spooked at a Shetland Pony with bright pink tack on, ha ha).
> 
> Fly needs both kinds of work, and you're not overly qualified to do either. The first time a horse encounters something or attempts a bad behavior is formative. No correction (or the _wrong_ correction) can lay the foundations for an ingrained bad behavior. When you have a green horse, it's really important that all of the basics are taught very, _very_ well.
> 
> You might consider having a professional trainer put a serious 30 days on her (where the trainer in question rides the horse daily and you have weekly lessons with the trainer and Fly). Full time training can give you a completely changed (and much safer/more fun) mount. I feel like you've had Fly for long enough now that a trail ride down the lane shouldn't be a problem if you've progressed as much as you guys should have. You could probably both benefit from some professional attention—her from an experienced rider and you from a well-versed lesson horse with a similar personality to Fly's.


I explained this above in my previous post.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> The first thing I notice is how the back sits higher than the front. This tells me the saddle is too wide. Also, there doesn't seem to be much wither clearance at the pommel.


You mean too long front to back?

Believe it or not though, this was by far the smallest saddle that I've found when I was shopping.


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## carshon

Hoofpic- try to remember that horses "live in the moment" Fly does not "think" an experience is detrimental or positive. She is not thinking in terms of "positive" or "negative" energy. 

You may benefit greatly from reading other posts on this forum and not just typing a journal and waiting for replies. Even the most experienced horses and riders have "off" days. Many times the reason for it is unknown. 

Horses all over the world are expected to ride with different horses in different locations on a daily basis and still perform to their best ability. 

My advise is to quit thinking in terms of what Fly is thinking about and turn your thinking in terms of what was I thinking about that could have caused her to behave like that. Just because you "think" you were confident in the ride your subtle body language may have told a different story to Fly. Stop getting mired in the fine details and over thinking it.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> You mean too long front to back?
> 
> Believe it or not though, this was by far the smallest saddle that I've found when I was shopping.


No. Not front to back. 

The gullet is too wide. 









This causes the FRONT of the saddle to tip down and the back to tip up. It doesn't allow for even distribution of pressure.


----------



## Hoofpic

Can someone tell me what this lady is doing? Just curious.


----------



## Hoofpic

So this weekend (Sat-Tues) is Peter Campbell's clinic again up in Cochrane. I'm not going to attend Saturday (because I already attended his first day the last time around, plus I have a lesson for 1pm), but I will attend Sunday. And I will not attend Monday or Tuesday. 

My question is, do you still think it's beneficial for me to go? I wish I could attend all 4 days (seeing how they continue on each day) but I just can't.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Can someone tell me what this lady is doing? Just curious.


Measuring a hat form...that is a caliper in her hands.

That silver thing is a crown form. It steams the felt so that it can be shaped from flat to the head shape.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> You mean too long front to back?
> 
> Believe it or not though, this was by far the smallest saddle that I've found when I was shopping.


Come on. She said the saddle was too wide. Not long. You should be able to think that out, wide vs long. You should not have had to ask, stop and think for a moment when you read stuff.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Measuring a hat form...that is a caliper in her hands.
> 
> That silver thing is a crown form. It steams the felt so that it can be shaped from flat to the head shape.


Thanks. Looks interesting.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> No. Not front to back.
> 
> The gullet is too wide.
> 
> View attachment 839954
> 
> 
> This causes the FRONT of the saddle to tip down and the back to tip up. It doesn't allow for even distribution of pressure.


Oh I didn't notice this. I'm now starting to question the credibility of that "saddle" fitter/massage lady that I used when I was testing out this saddle.

Well it'll be REALLY interesting to see what Fly's massage lady says today when she comes out. Thankfully, this is a different lady.

I know when I was saddle shopping for Fly, I had nothing but saddles that had gullets too small.


----------



## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> Hoofpic- try to remember that horses "live in the moment" Fly does not "think" an experience is detrimental or positive. She is not thinking in terms of "positive" or "negative" energy.


Yes I am aware that horses live in the moment, but I need to stop thinking positive or energy energy, even though I know that horses will feed off the energy from the other horses and riders with them.



> You may benefit greatly from reading other posts on this forum and not just typing a journal and waiting for replies. Even the most experienced horses and riders have "off" days. Many times the reason for it is unknown.


I've been reading a couple other journals and have been browsing a couple other sections, but yes I have been wanting to do this more often. THanks for the suggestion.



> Horses all over the world are expected to ride with different horses in different locations on a daily basis and still perform to their best ability.
> 
> My advise is to quit thinking in terms of what Fly is thinking about and turn your thinking in terms of what was I thinking about that could have caused her to behave like that. Just because you "think" you were confident in the ride your subtle body language may have told a different story to Fly. Stop getting mired in the fine details and over thinking it.


I do think like that, or at least ask myself how I was feeling at the time (whether I was nervous, how calm I was, etc), what I was doing (if I was looking down or straight ahead, etc), but I need to dig deeper into it.

For instance when she spotted other riders in the distance, I know I was calm but I was a bit unsure because I have never been in a situation like that before on Fly. 

But heading back to the barn, we came across another horse who was galloping once he/she saw us with the tail up and immediately Fly wanted to stop. I told her to walk on and she immediately did, right towards the horses direction.

I was talking with my friend's friend on the ride and she was telling me how her 18 year old gelding who she was riding, wouldn't be able to handle riding in an open field like the one we were in when he got him. But after her taking to to casual trails out in the mountains, it has made him comfortable riding in open fields and that if it wasn't for her riding him in the mountains, she wouldn't be able to ride in the field that we were in yesterday. I immediately thought to myself, wouldn't it be the other way around? Aren't open fields technically less threatening for horses? I don't know if threatening is the right word for it.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Oh I didn't notice this. I'm now starting to question the credibility of that "saddle" fitter/massage lady that I used when I was testing out this saddle.
> 
> Well it'll be REALLY interesting to see what Fly's massage lady says today when she comes out. Thankfully, this is a different lady.
> 
> I know when I was saddle shopping for Fly, I had nothing but saddles that had gullets too small.


I questioned her (along with everyone else on here) a few pages back...but you seemed adamant that she was correct and this was the best fitting saddle available.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I questioned her (along with everyone else on here) a few pages back...but you seemed adamant that she was correct and this was the best fitting saddle available.


I wasn't doubting what you said, I was just so convinced when she told me that the saddle couldn't fit any better and even showed me on the gel pad after she had it on Fly for 20mins. 

But going into today, I now know about this issue of the gullet being too big and it will be interesting to see what the massage lady says today. Thanks for the tip, I wouldn't have known if you didn't bring it up.

I just hope I don't need to buy a new saddle, that would suck. If I do have to buy a new one, I might take a different approach here. Perhaps, I haul Fly to the tack shop and I rely on the owners at the tack shop to do the fitting or I hire my massage lady to come to the store with me and saddle fit Fly when we get some saddles.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks for the tip, I wouldn't have known if you didn't bring it up.
> 
> I just hope I don't need to buy a new saddle, that would suck.


You're welcome.

I think you and Fly would be much better off with a different saddle. It may be harder to find, but there is a better one out there.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> I think you and Fly would be much better off with a different saddle. It may be harder to find, but there is a better one out there.


Is there any chance that at the time when I bought and tried on the saddle on Fly, the front of the saddle fit just right but now it's too big? Maybe her form has changed in the past 7 months?

What if I used shims to fill in the excess space in the gullet?

If I do need to buy one, I'm considering going with a Western endurance. Afterall, I do like my saddle as light as can be. 

I know my trainer wants to try English out but she said that it's harder to balance in them and I won't get as much support as from a Western one. Plus, the fact that you guys mentioned that the weight of the rider isn't as evenly spread out on a horses back in an English saddle than a Western one concerns me. Me on Fly with an English most likely won't work.


----------



## greentree

You do not weigh too much for her...... Go back and watch that video about the saddle fitting again. Pay particular attention to the gullet fit on those horses. Measure your saddle gullet, and write it down. Measure the length of your saddle skirt, the height of the cantle, the length of your fenders. You will take this with you whenever you saddle shop. Make some notes as your chiro answers your questions be sure to ask WHY!!


----------



## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> Is there any chance that at the time when I bought and tried on the saddle on Fly, the front of the saddle fit just right but now it's too big? Maybe her form has changed in the past 7 months?


This is certainly possible.. but there are other possibilities too. Is Fly built downhill? If so, the saddle is going to go downhill even if it fits appropriately. While pictures on the internet can give a general impression, it is not the same as having someone educated about saddle fit look at it in real life.

Next time you have a lesson, ask your trainer to look at the saddle before you tack up. Have her show you what she looks at and feels to determine proper fit.


----------



## Hoofpic

I'm so disappointed with my boss that I am just sickened beyond belief right now. Not in a good mood at all. 

I'm guessing since the next pay day is coming next Tuesday, you might as well just pay me for my previous one then. But at least mention it in our Skype meeting this morning with the new guy.

Let's just see if my boss is going to have some decency to pay the both of us on time next Tuesday or if he's going to need to be babysat again. You have a new guy onboard, I would think that he wants to make a good impression on him by paying him on time on his first pay. Let's just see if he actually does it.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Observations:

A. She didn't spook when she 'cantered' back toward home. She is barn soured and you let her make the decision to go that direction. She reached a point where she said Don't Wanna, I'm going Home. If you don't learn fast how to shut that down, you are going to get hurt. Your first post said you want to be the best leader you can be. You just let Fly be the leader, and she will not forget that.

Related: Never, ever, let a horse lope or trot or otherwise hurry back to the barn, even when you're done and going back to the barn to unsaddle. All but one of ours are older horses (We have a weanling, a 4 year old, a 7, and 8, a 10, and a 19 year old). All but our four year old came to us barn soured, and thinking they could bolt or trot back home at the end of the ride. They also conveniently like to forget whoa and I SAID WHOA DA*&$%T. Its a hard habit to break once they get that started. It doesn't take but two or three times for them to develop the habit. 

B. Why aren't you using a back girth if you're going with Western riding? Or was that saddle not fully outfitted yet? I also don't see a breast collar. For pleasure riding they aren't terribly necessary but they do help secure the saddle more with a proper fit. With an improper fit, you will rub the hide off the chest of the horse and leave sores on them.

C. Saddle shims are treating a symptom, not the problem. That saddle is a poor fit for your horse, and possibly for your rear end. Tack is an extremely personal thing... it has to fit YOU AND a 1000 lb horse properly or both of you are in for a world of irritation and misery. There are a lot of saddles out there, and you can probably pick up a good, used one that's already broken in, that fits much better for far less. 

D. You asked why she's calm with the trainer, not with you. Horses KNOW. I don't know HOW but they KNOW. It could be your scent, your posture, your heartbeat, the subtle way you move your knees, the way you project your voice or command the reins. Our 19 year old knows the difference between a child just on a 'pony ride' while we lead, a child that rides like a tick on a dogs back, a learning adult, or a teenager that spends every day on a horse. Supes behaves differently, and skill level appropriately, for each one. Somehow, he knows the difference. 

Fly will know the difference.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> My question is, do you still think it's beneficial for me to go? I wish I could attend all 4 days (seeing how they continue on each day) but I just can't.


You're a beginner rider with a green horse. Any in person knowledge you can glean from an experienced horseperson is worth it. Go to the days you can make it to, it's better to learn a little bit than nothing at all.



Hoofpic said:


> I just hope I don't need to buy a new saddle, that would suck.


Here's everything I have to say about this saddle mayhem, condensed into bullets:


If the saddle doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. Trying to shim it to death is like wearing eight pair of socks so your cute new boots (that you ordered in the wrong size because they were on clearance) will fit.
Saddles are always worth the investment. If you treat a good saddle right, it will be with you for decades (unless you need to sell for fit reasons, and even then you'll get part of your investment back).
Her form probably has changed in the last 7 months, but horses that are building muscle from more consistent work usually get bigger, not smaller, so chances are high that it's never really fit correctly.
Don't get hung up in a certain "type" of western saddle (like an endurance one), fit matters above all else.
Greentree's right, you don't look like you weigh too much for her (though you are a little tall on her from what I've seen in videos, which just means that you need to focus on being balanced because its effects on her are greater than if you were shorter).
Greentree's also right that you need to take a million measurements/tracings whenever you go saddle shopping.
I'm going to say you should avoid English until you're more secure in the saddle.



Hoofpic said:


> I'm so disappointed with my boss that I am just sickened beyond belief right now. Not in a good mood at all.


 Stop complaining and do something about it! Have an adult conversation with him about the late paydays. Make it about you ("I've got bills I've got to pay and I _really _need my paychecks to come in on time. Is there any way I can help to remind you to pay me/can we work out a solution together/etc.?"), don't be accusatory, and everything will go fine.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You do not weigh too much for her...... Go back and watch that video about the saddle fitting again. Pay particular attention to the gullet fit on those horses. Measure your saddle gullet, and write it down. Measure the length of your saddle skirt, the height of the cantle, the length of your fenders. You will take this with you whenever you saddle shop. Make some notes as your chiro answers your questions be sure to ask WHY!!


I did those measurements with my trainer last Fall, before I hit the tack shops for my current saddle. This is how I went shopping. I basically pulled out the measuring tape for each saddle.

These were the measurements that I got measuring (before I found my current saddle), so going shopping.

22" from the front of the girth to the back edge of the saddle (I can't go longer than 22")
7" gullet (I did the tracing myself with one of those rubber bendy stencil tracers). I still have it in it's current shape.

I never measured the length of the fenders or height of the cantle though. I had no idea on this one. I'm going to look into how to do this.


----------



## bsms

Here are some pictures of Mia when I had a custom saddle made for her, and how the tree fit. This first curve was a reject:



















The one I went with:




























Notice that without a pad, this tree almost touches her withers. So what...



















This one was too wide, both in angle and horizontal width:










Both cleared her withers fine with a pad. But with the one that fit, I could mount up without the cinch. With the too wide one, this happened:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497

Once the saddle is made, it is very tough to just look and tell how it fits. Some signs of good fit:

You don't need to crank down on the cinch before mounting.

You feel stable.

The saddle doesn't rock back and forth like a rocking chair before you cinch it.

You feel under the front, and the pressures feel even and it doesn't poke the shoulders.

This program may not cost any more than a fitter, and it lets you KNOW versus guess:

Steele Saddle Tree LLC - Fit To The Horse

I didn't end up using their tree, but the folks at Steele were very nice and helpful. When you find a form that fits your horse, you can place it on the bottom of your saddle and see if the saddle matches the form that matches your horse. And if nothing else, talking to Steele - and I got to speak on the phone to the head of the company - is educational.

IIRC, I spent a couple hundred dollars on shipping fees, etc. I viewed it as taking a course in western saddle fitting taught by the largest maker of western saddle trees in the world. My saddle was made by SouthernTrails, who used to be a moderator but who doesn't seem to post here any more.


----------



## jenkat86

StephaniHren said:


> You're a beginner rider with a green horse. Any in person knowledge you can glean from an experienced horseperson is worth it. Go to the days you can make it to, it's better to learn a little bit than nothing at all.
> 
> 
> Here's everything I have to say about this saddle mayhem, condensed into bullets:
> 
> 
> If the saddle doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. Trying to shim it to death is like wearing eight pair of socks so your cute new boots (that you ordered in the wrong size because they were on clearance) will fit.
> Saddles are always worth the investment. If you treat a good saddle right, it will be with you for decades (unless you need to sell for fit reasons, and even then you'll get part of your investment back).
> Her form probably has changed in the last 7 months, but horses that are building muscle from more consistent work usually get bigger, not smaller, so chances are high that it's never really fit correctly.
> Don't get hung up in a certain "type" of western saddle (like an endurance one), fit matters above all else.
> Greentree's right, you don't look like you weigh too much for her (though you are a little tall on her from what I've seen in videos, which just means that you need to focus on being balanced because its effects on her are greater than if you were shorter).
> Greentree's also right that you need to take a million measurements/tracings whenever you go saddle shopping.
> I'm going to say you should avoid English until you're more secure in the saddle.
> 
> 
> Stop complaining and do something about it! Have an adult conversation with him about the late paydays. Make it about you ("I've got bills I've got to pay and I _really _need my paychecks to come in on time. Is there any way I can help to remind you to pay me/can we work out a solution together/etc.?"), don't be accusatory, and everything will go fine.


I would like to "like" this post 100 times.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You do not weigh too much for her...... Go back and watch that video about the saddle fitting again. Pay particular attention to the gullet fit on those horses. Measure your saddle gullet, and write it down. Measure the length of your saddle skirt, the height of the cantle, the length of your fenders. You will take this with you whenever you saddle shop. Make some notes as your chiro answers your questions be sure to ask WHY!!


I won't be able to remember everything that my massage lady will say this afternoon so I am taking notes. Then I can post on here for feedback.


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> This is certainly possible.. but there are other possibilities too. Is Fly built downhill? If so, the saddle is going to go downhill even if it fits appropriately. While pictures on the internet can give a general impression, it is not the same as having someone educated about saddle fit look at it in real life.
> 
> Next time you have a lesson, ask your trainer to look at the saddle before you tack up. Have her show you what she looks at and feels to determine proper fit.


How do I tell if she is built downhill? 

My trainer isn't the person to go to for saddle fitting, even she admitted to it. BO is the person to go to but he is still recovering and hasn't been out of his house since he got back home last Tuesday.

From what I remember when my trainer tested and used the "lesson saddle" that I was riding the lesson mare with on Fly last Fall, she put it on, then slide her hand under the sides of the gullet to feel any pressure points between the saddle and pad I believe. Or it could have been the saddle and Fly's body, I'm not sure it was a year ago since she did it.

All I know is that this isn't a good enough way to check and from what I was told the best way to check is by putting a gel pressure pad under the saddle (with no pad), then ride at a walk just to create enough heat to leave an imprint on the gel pad. 

You have to remember that my trainer doesn't believe in saddle fitting (my BO does), but my trainer just doesn't have the same expectations that my BO does, which is surprising because the BO is who she learned from all her life. 

The impression that I get from my trainer is that a saddle just has to fit "good enough", and that it doesn't need to be a perfect fit. Well, you can create a lot of issues with this logic and unfortunately I paid the price last Fall when Fly got soar from the lesson saddle being used on her. But one chiro and two massage appointments fixed her.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> You have to remember that my trainer doesn't believe in saddle fitting


Wait, WHAT? _She doesn't _believe _in saddle fitting_?

That's just... I don't think I could learn from somebody who doesn't believe in one of the most basic principles of horsemanship.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> How do I tell if she is built downhill?


First...let me ask you, what would YOU think downhill means?

Time to do your homework. 

https://hoovesblog.com/2013/06/24/the-up-and-down-of-it-levelness-of-build/



Hoofpic said:


> My trainer isn't the person to go to for saddle fitting, even she admitted to it. BO is the person to go to but he is still recovering and hasn't been out of his house since he got back home last Tuesday.
> 
> From what I remember when my trainer tested and used the "lesson saddle" that I was riding the lesson mare with on Fly last Fall, she put it on, then slide her hand under the sides of the gullet to feel any pressure points between the saddle and pad I believe. Or it could have been the saddle and Fly's body, I'm not sure it was a year ago since she did it.
> 
> All I know is that this isn't a good enough way to check and from what I was told the best way to check is by putting a gel pressure pad under the saddle (with no pad), then ride at a walk just to create enough heat to leave an imprint on the gel pad.
> 
> You have to remember that my trainer doesn't believe in saddle fitting (my BO does), but my trainer just doesn't have the same expectations that my BO does, which is surprising because the BO is who she learned from all her life.
> 
> The impression that I get from my trainer is that a saddle just has to fit "good enough", and that it doesn't need to be a perfect fit. Well, you can create a lot of issues with this logic and unfortunately I paid the price last Fall when Fly got soar from the lesson saddle being used on her. But one chiro and two massage appointments fixed her.


Ok. I would never, ever trust a trainer that didn't think saddle fit was important. The fit of a saddle can contribute to SO MANY THINGS that directly affect training!!!!

Also- did you read @bsms post at all? Where is his gel pad showing him that his saddle fits??? Nonsense. All of it. You have seriously bad information surrounding you.


----------



## Hoofpic

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Observations:
> 
> A. She didn't spook when she 'cantered' back toward home. She is barn soured and you let her make the decision to go that direction. She reached a point where she said Don't Wanna, I'm going Home. If you don't learn fast how to shut that down, you are going to get hurt. Your first post said you want to be the best leader you can be. You just let Fly be the leader, and she will not forget that.


She didn't canter home, she did start but I got her to quit and turn around within 15ft (the first time).



> Related: Never, ever, let a horse lope or trot or otherwise hurry back to the barn, even when you're done and going back to the barn to unsaddle. All but one of ours are older horses (We have a weanling, a 4 year old, a 7, and 8, a 10, and a 19 year old). All but our four year old came to us barn soured, and thinking they could bolt or trot back home at the end of the ride. They also conveniently like to forget whoa and I SAID WHOA DA*&$%T. Its a hard habit to break once they get that started. It doesn't take but two or three times for them to develop the habit.


I've never let Fly do this. Of all the times us riding outside (even including yesterday), she never tried to trot or hurry back home and I always made sure that I made the call on what pace we go back at, not her.



> B. Why aren't you using a back girth if you're going with Western riding? Or was that saddle not fully outfitted yet? I also don't see a breast collar. For pleasure riding they aren't terribly necessary but they do help secure the saddle more with a proper fit. With an improper fit, you will rub the hide off the chest of the horse and leave sores on them.


My saddle came with back girth but my trainer said it's not needed for arena riding so we took it off. She did mention that back girths are beneficial for trail riding. But is it worth it for me to keep putting it on and taking it off?



> C. Saddle shims are treating a symptom, not the problem. That saddle is a poor fit for your horse, and possibly for your rear end. Tack is an extremely personal thing... it has to fit YOU AND a 1000 lb horse properly or both of you are in for a world of irritation and misery. There are a lot of saddles out there, and you can probably pick up a good, used one that's already broken in, that fits much better for far less.


I only spent $700 on this saddle (I paid $400 just for the cinch and pad alone), so chances of me finding a saddle period for less is zero IMO. But cost isn't everything for me. If I could find a better fitting saddle for not much more than $700, I'd be very happy. 



> D. You asked why she's calm with the trainer, not with you. Horses KNOW. I don't know HOW but they KNOW. It could be your scent, your posture, your heartbeat, the subtle way you move your knees, the way you project your voice or command the reins. Our 19 year old knows the difference between a child just on a 'pony ride' while we lead, a child that rides like a tick on a dogs back, a learning adult, or a teenager that spends every day on a horse. Supes behaves differently, and skill level appropriately, for each one. Somehow, he knows the difference.
> 
> Fly will know the difference.


Horses know when a trainer is with us?


----------



## bsms

Hoofpic said:


> ...The impression that I get from my trainer is that a saddle just has to fit "good enough", and that it doesn't need to be a perfect fit....


Steele lists 10 standard trees. About 6 of them will cover the large majority of horses reasonably well.

The saddle I had made for Mia used a "J" tree:

"Semi-Quarter Horse (Semi)/Arabian (Arab) - Steeper front and rear rafter angle and closer-spaced bars relative to Standard Quarter Horse fit when positioned at standard spread. In addition, sufficient bow (rocker) enables this fit to conform well to the short Arabian back having a narrow wither dropping off quickly to the shoulder."

Steele Saddle Tree LLC - Fit To The Horse

That is a little wider than Bandit needs, but I'd have to get a new custom saddle made with a special tree to fit him extremely well. He is uncommonly slender, particularly compared to the QHs the industry tends to build saddles for. I use the front half of a Wintec foam pad as a spacer:








​
That widens him a little and flattens out some of the rock (curve front to back). The foam is dense and grippy. He acts relaxed that way, and the saddle doesn't move around when we go down steep spots (or up them).

I may someday work with Steele again to find a tree that fits Bandit extremely well - they actually have hundreds available, and are willing to custom fit a standard model with some extra flare, for example. I could then have Dakota (I think) build a saddle for me.

Bandit seems pretty content as we are, using Mia's old saddle and a spacer. For now. A custom saddle may be in his future, though. The thread I linked to, telling my story of what happened with Mia & I using a saddle that Mia actually acted happy in, taught me the danger of ignoring saddle fit. And if you read that thread, you'll see that I continued to resist the idea it was bad saddle fit. But it was. Had it happened when I was surrounded by cactus, I could have been very badly hurt. And had I gone over with the saddle, as many do, and she panicked, I could have been killed. Perfect saddle fit isn't a requirement, but ignoring saddle fit is dangerous to the rider and painful to the horse.

FWIW, I never ride with a breastcollar or back cinch. I don't rope, and the riding I do is not extreme. But it does have up and down. The Nikkel's website discusses western saddle fit. A few hours of reading there is like listening to masters discuss why they do what they do. Please browse it:

http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/in...op-and-desk/the-problems-with-too-short-bars/


----------



## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> Here are some pictures of Mia when I had a custom saddle made for her, and how the tree fit. This first curve was a reject:
> 
> Notice that without a pad, this tree almost touches her withers. So what...
> 
> Both cleared her withers fine with a pad. But with the one that fit, I could mount up without the cinch. With the too wide one, this happened:
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/my-first-emergency-dismount-mia-while-377705/#post4940497
> 
> Once the saddle is made, it is very tough to just look and tell how it fits. Some signs of good fit:
> 
> You don't need to crank down on the cinch before mounting.
> 
> You feel stable.
> 
> The saddle doesn't rock back and forth like a rocking chair before you cinch it.
> 
> You feel under the front, and the pressures feel even and it doesn't poke the shoulders.
> 
> This program may not cost any more than a fitter, and it lets you KNOW versus guess:
> 
> Steele Saddle Tree LLC - Fit To The Horse
> 
> I didn't end up using their tree, but the folks at Steele were very nice and helpful. When you find a form that fits your horse, you can place it on the bottom of your saddle and see if the saddle matches the form that matches your horse. And if nothing else, talking to Steele - and I got to speak on the phone to the head of the company - is educational.
> 
> IIRC, I spent a couple hundred dollars on shipping fees, etc. I viewed it as taking a course in western saddle fitting taught by the largest maker of western saddle trees in the world. My saddle was made by SouthernTrails, who used to be a moderator but who doesn't seem to post here any more.


Thanks. I will be honest though, even if I was to order that program I still don't have enough confidence in myself being able to do it all correctly. I need a saddle fitter to do it for me. I know it's the easy way out but I just don't have the confidence just yet, otherwise I would do it.

I have taken note of your signs of a good saddle fit too. Thanks.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Wait, WHAT? _She doesn't _believe _in saddle fitting_?
> 
> That's just... I don't think I could learn from somebody who doesn't believe in one of the most basic principles of horsemanship.


What I meant is that, if you ask her if saddle fitting is important, she would say yes. So having a saddle fit a horse right does matter to her. But if you ask her if she would ever hire a saddle fitter to come out to fit a horse? SHe would say no.

She will never spend huge amounts of money on a saddle and uses neoprene cinches and cheap non contour pads. It's not a bad thing, just a preference thing. Whereas I'm the opposite, I would never use anything but a full contour pad and I would never consider using a neoprene cinch. 

My massage lady has the same logic as me, so that's great to hear. She hates neoprene cinches.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I only spent $700 on this saddle (I paid $400 just for the cinch and pad alone), so chances of me finding a saddle period for less is zero IMO.


You can 100% for certain find a saddle that fits better for less than $700, you just have to buy used.



Hoofpic said:


> Horses know when a trainer is with us?


Horses know when you know a trainer is with you.



Hoofpic said:


> But if you ask her if she would ever hire a saddle fitter to come out to fit a horse? SHe would say no.


Does she do all her own farrier/vet/chiropractic work, too? Because saddle fit is just as much of a specialized skill as all of that, and I can guarantee she pays a professional for those services.

EDIT: Okay, vets are probably a few steps above saddle fitters, but you get my point. LOL


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> First...let me ask you, what would YOU think downhill means?
> 
> Time to do your homework.
> 
> https://hoovesblog.com/2013/06/24/the-up-and-down-of-it-levelness-of-build/


Thanks. I knew what downhill meant but I just didn't know if it was the withers or the hind end that it was judged by.

After seeing that, I would say Fly is downhill, but again I don't have the eye for it. I remember someone in the past mentioning this to me, it was either the chiro or massage lady. I will ask my massage lady again today. 




> Ok. I would never, ever trust a trainer that didn't think saddle fit was important. The fit of a saddle can contribute to SO MANY THINGS that directly affect training!!!!
> 
> Also- did you read @bsms post at all? Where is his gel pad showing him that his saddle fits??? Nonsense. All of it. You have seriously bad information surrounding you.


Yes I replied earlier.

So you think these $300 gel pads that they sell in Europe are bogus? I don't remember the exact name for them but all I know is that she needed to lug it around in a big case. 

I'm just surprised so many saddle fitters are using them. The saddle fitter that I had out last winter said to me that the pillowcase technique doesn't work and the gel pad is much more effective. It had red gel inside.


Im not arguing with you, Im just wondering why you don't believe in gel pads for saddle fit testing?


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> You can 100% for certain find a saddle that fits better for less than $700, you just have to buy used.


My saddle now was used from a saddle store. If I want a saddle for less than $700, then no chance finding one at any tack shops. All the saddles there are $1500+. You'd be lucky to even find anything for $1000. ANd I'm talking USED. I have some huge saddle shops in my area and I went to all of them.

Going by my past experience in saddle shopping, I would rather go to a larger shop that has a much more larger and better selection in the greater chance finding something, than driving around endlessly and shopping for months. 



> Horses know when you know a trainer is with you.


Okay thanks.



> Does she do all her own farrier/vet/chiropractic work, too? Because saddle fit is just as much of a specialized skill as all of that, and I can guarantee she pays a professional for those services.
> 
> EDIT: Okay, vets are probably a few steps above saddle fitters, but you get my point. LOL


My trainer doesn't believe in chiro or massage for horses. She told me her reason and I see her point but I don't agree with her. But like I said, we are different in terms of where her and I stand about equine chiro and massage. 
She uses the BO's farrier on her 3 horses and she doesn't pay anything since she gets free board. But she does put extremely high important on a good farrier and good vet.


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## bsms

The pressure pads aren't super reliable. The Nikkels bought a pressure pad but have been disappointed in trying to interpret the results.

But it seems pretty obvious to me that a tree built like this would be too wide and have too much rock for this horse. It just doesn't have even contact, and parts stick out to the sides. It is, BTW, a perfect match for our Circle Y Mojave Arabian saddle. It just isn't a perfect match or even an OK one for this particular Crabbet bred Arabian mare:


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> My saddle now was used from a saddle store. If I want a saddle for less than $700, then no chance finding one at any tack shops. All the saddles there are $1500+.


No way. Either you're looking in the wrong places, or you've got ridiculously high standards for someone that's not actively competing with their horse. I don't care where you are, you can find a saddle that fits correctly for less than $700. Saddle fit isn't reliant on price.



Hoofpic said:


> My trainer doesn't believe in chiro or massage for horses.


To each their own, but I really wouldn't be able to learn from someone like this. Chiro/massage isn't something you can't believe in, horses can _physically_ be out of alignment and need body work done. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Hoofpic said:


> She didn't canter home, she did start but I got her to quit and turn around within 15ft (the first time).
> 
> 
> 
> I've never let Fly do this. Of all the times us riding outside (even including yesterday), she never tried to trot or hurry back home and I always made sure that I made the call on what pace we go back at, not her.
> 
> 
> 
> My saddle came with back girth but my trainer said it's not needed for arena riding so we took it off. She did mention that back girths are beneficial for trail riding. But is it worth it for me to keep putting it on and taking it off?
> 
> 
> 
> I only spent $700 on this saddle (I paid $400 just for the cinch and pad alone), so chances of me finding a saddle period for less is zero IMO. But cost isn't everything for me. If I could find a better fitting saddle for not much more than $700, I'd be very happy.
> 
> 
> 
> Horses know when a trainer is with us?



Yes, horses know when a trainer or an experienced rider/teacher is with you. They are herd animals and have a herd hierarchy. Your horse may recognize the trainer as the 'dominant mare'. How much time does your trainer spend with Fly vs you? And I don't mean just riding. I mean companionship type time. The horse may just know the trainer better than she does you and behaves better.

Put the back girth on and leave it. Use it. Its better to have it and not need it than to have to constantly take it on and off again. Is it necessary for just messing around in an arena? No. But if you're going to trail ride too, might as well rig the saddle up and leave it. 

Yes, you can find used saddles cheaper. Look on Craigslist (I assume you are in Canada or the U.S.) You may not find what you like right off, just keep checking back. I've bought several well made SRS, Billy Cook (Greenville), and Paul Ammerman saddles directly from the owners. There are also often 'trophy' saddles for sale for a good price and most are usually made by well known saddle makers. I also always always deal in cash and haggle the price, but do my research first. They all came with latigo, front and back girths. 

My daughter's Billy Cook, fully outfitted (except for a breast collar and it did have a nightlatch on it), was only $500.00 and the owner threw in a red team roping rope. The price started at $800.00, negotiations were fierce, but my daughter is a master negotiator. Always ask for 'cash if I'm there in an hour' type prices. The worst they can do is say no.  

Saddle pads: Look for imperfects or clearance pads online. The colors may not be exactly what you want, but once you put a saddle over it, you're going to see very little of it anyway. You can get good pads for no more riding than what you're doing and honestly, 400.00 for JUST a cinch and a pad sounds like highway robbery to me, even buying new from a tack shop.


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## 6gun Kid

StephaniHren said:


> No way. Either you're looking in the wrong places, or you've got ridiculously high standards for someone that's not actively competing with their horse. I don't care where you are, you can find a saddle that fits correctly for less than $700. Saddle fit isn't reliant on price..


That is Canadian which is only around 65 cents U.S. last I checked.


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> Well once we started the ride, Fly was a bit more hesistant right from the get go even going down the driveway, but I kept squeezing with my legs and looked forward to where I wanted us to go and told her to walk and she did.


Was she maybe feeling YOU being hesitant to ride with new horses???

I have not read any further than this yet, and I doubt I'll finish it before I get to go home. But YOU were stressing about riding with new horses prior. I'm betting Fly felt that from you and thought "OH! Dad is anxious! I think we need to get FAR away!"

We were JUST at a show this weekend. None of Izzie's barn mates show. We haul alone down there, and her bestie/frenemey (running joke) was not there. Yet, no issues showing in a massive ring with horses who don't follow personal space rules (Izzie is a kicker, and I'm upfront about that; I show with a lot of friends, and we usually have an understanding of "you stay away from me, and I'll stay away from you." Though, there ARE nasty trainers we show with that will purposely ride up on you trying to get your horse to kick.

Anyway, we were all in a packed warm up ring with everyone going every which way. It was a high stress, high energy environment. Yet, Izzie wasn't running for the hills. Because I'M the leader. I'M who she looks for if she gets anxious around others (she doesn't; she normally gets sassy.) Running for the hills would result in her working extra hard. But it doesn't come to that since I'M HER LEADER. I have established I won't be taking her somewhere to get hurt. I've established that I won't ask something of her that she can't actually do.

You and Fly are still SO green. I 100% agree with the comment to stay in the arena until you can safely get your horse stopped. 15 feet could run you right off a cliff if you aren't careful. But knowing when to cue for stop, when to cue for forward, and when to relax to let them take a second to take it all in will ONLY come from HOURS and HOURS of riding, on TONS of different horses.

I do have to agree with Raina though. I think it'd be in yours and Fly's best interest to have your trainer put a lot more miles/hours into Fly. Escalating to cantering toward home is NOT something to laugh about. That is something that could escalate into something even worse.


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## Hoofpic

Bsms, im not ignoring you, i will reply to your posts.


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## Whinnie

When talking about the gullet, it is not "big" or "small". It is too *wide* for Fly, or she needs one that is more *narrow* are the terms to use. For a year now, everyone has advised you to take the time to learn proper terminology and vocabulary. It would help you understand what others are talking about and help others know what you are asking. It would show that you are making the effort to learn.


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## Rainaisabelle

I'm not talking about you getting your trainer to ride fly next spring I'm talking about sending her to someone very soon who can ride her everyday for a month in various situations. When you last gave fly to your trainer did she get to ride her everyday or 5 days a week ? How many days for how long did your trainer wok fly ?


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## StephaniHren

6gun Kid said:


> That is Canadian which is only around 65 cents U.S. last I checked.


Oh, good catch! That's like $525 USD.

CAD makes the "I can't find a saddle for under $700" less ridiculous, but I still stand by what I said. You can definitely find something that price or cheaper that fits.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

bsms said:


> FWIW, I never ride with a breastcollar or back cinch. I don't rope, and the riding I do is not extreme. But it does have up and down. The Nikkel's website discusses western saddle fit. A few hours of reading there is like listening to masters discuss why they do what they do. Please browse it:
> 
> The problems with too-short bars


That's a very nice site, bsms. I wish I'd have known about it a year ago. Very informative.


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## Hoofpic

So my massage lady said the saddle is too wide around the tree but she said she would get a new saddle when Spring comes (start shopping before) because Flys form can change from now till then.

I told her I will have her back out in the winter and she said she can check my saddle again and see how Flys form has changed.

She said that with the pad I have right now, the saddle isnt a terrible fit, like it wont do any damage and because in the winter ill only be riding 1-2 times a week if Im lucky, that she would use it for now and start shopping for a new saddle as winter is almost over.

We noticed that Fly is going through a growth spurt, as her hind end is noticably higher right now than it was months ago. She said her withers will come up too and most likely in a couple months.

Fly was a bit sore in the pectorals area including where the cinch goes. She showed me a spot to massage before each time I ride her to loosen up her pectoral muscles. It was a concerning soreness just mild. She said its most likely from Fly using her front end more when being riddeb and she needs to learn to use her hind end more, (but she will with time.). She said to do trot poles and with shorter strides, which I did plan on doing more in the winter.

She showed me exactly where her shoulder is and her scalpulous (sorry spelling), and where exactly to put her pad and saddle. I took a picture so I can cross reference, it will be really handy. What a relief.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> No way. Either you're looking in the wrong places, or you've got ridiculously high standards for someone that's not actively competing with their horse. I don't care where you are, you can find a saddle that fits correctly for less than $700. Saddle fit isn't reliant on price.
> 
> 
> To each their own, but I really wouldn't be able to learn from someone like this. Chiro/massage isn't something you can't believe in, horses can _physically_ be out of alignment and need body work done. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.


Oh trust me, I have far from high standards when it comes to saddles. Even looking on Kijiji, you would be hard pressed to find any saddle in decent shape for $700cdn. I got a good deal on my current saddle. Will I be trading it in? Yes. Hopefully I can still trade it in because I will be keeping my Classic Equine mohair cinch. I should be able to since when I bought the saddle, it never came with one. Do people normally include the cinches when they trade in or sell saddles?

I am the ONLY person at my barn who believes in equine chiro and massage. No one else does. It doesn't mean that it will limit my desire in learning from them, it's just everyone is different.


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## Hoofpic

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Yes, horses know when a trainer or an experienced rider/teacher is with you. They are herd animals and have a herd hierarchy. Your horse may recognize the trainer as the 'dominant mare'. How much time does your trainer spend with Fly vs you? And I don't mean just riding. I mean companionship type time. The horse may just know the trainer better than she does you and behaves better.


My trainer spends zero time with Fly. The only time she sees Fly is when I'm there or during our lessons. 



> Put the back girth on and leave it. Use it. Its better to have it and not need it than to have to constantly take it on and off again. Is it necessary for just messing around in an arena? No. But if you're going to trail ride too, might as well rig the saddle up and leave it.


Well I will be trading it in anyways. The big question is, on the new saddle, do I get one with a back cinch or not? I remember asking my trainer about it when I first got my saddle and she asked me if Fly has been ridden before with a back cinch and I said I didn't know. So she said to just leave it off because why leave it on for the arena if you don't need it.



> Yes, you can find used saddles cheaper. Look on Craigslist (I assume you are in Canada or the U.S.) You may not find what you like right off, just keep checking back. I've bought several well made SRS, Billy Cook (Greenville), and Paul Ammerman saddles directly from the owners. There are also often 'trophy' saddles for sale for a good price and most are usually made by well known saddle makers. I also always always deal in cash and haggle the price, but do my research first. They all came with latigo, front and back girths.
> 
> My daughter's Billy Cook, fully outfitted (except for a breast collar and it did have a nightlatch on it), was only $500.00 and the owner threw in a red team roping rope. The price started at $800.00, negotiations were fierce, but my daughter is a master negotiator. Always ask for 'cash if I'm there in an hour' type prices. The worst they can do is say no.
> 
> Saddle pads: Look for imperfects or clearance pads online. The colors may not be exactly what you want, but once you put a saddle over it, you're going to see very little of it anyway. You can get good pads for no more riding than what you're doing and honestly, 400.00 for JUST a cinch and a pad sounds like highway robbery to me, even buying new from a tack shop.


Well I don't need a new pad but I will start my browsing for saddles right now. If I can manage to find a used one online without having to go to a tack shop then I would prefer to go this route. Saddle shops are just so expensive here. Don't believe me? Walk into a shop here, I'd say the average price of a saddle (even used) has to be $1500+. New looking at even more.

I've sat and looked at many saddles in stores here and I liked quite a few, until I saw their price tags, mostly $1600 and up. I'd be lucky to find one even $1200.

I didn't pay almost $400 for my cinch and pad, I paid almost $500. The cinch was $175 but the pad was $300 because I had to get a 28" pad and 3/4" in Diamond brand. The stores had the 1" version in a 30" length for $200, but to get a 28" at 3/4" it was $100 more. Only $100 less than a 5 star. Was I happy about the price? No but I had no choice.


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## sarahfromsc

Buy a cheap saddle and spend lots of $$$$ on chiros and massages, or buy a good saddle and you won't have to spend as much on chiros and massages. The choice is yours.

It will all even out in the end. Actually, over the life of the cheap saddle you will spend way more on body work for Fly versus just biting the bullet and buying a good saddle that firs despite the upfront cost.

Choice is yours.


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Buy a cheap saddle and spend lots of $$$$ on chiros and massages, or buy a good saddle and you won't have to spend as much on chiros and massages. The choice is yours.
> 
> It will all even out in the end. Actually, over the life of the cheap saddle you will spend way more on body work for Fly versus just biting the bullet and buying a good saddle that firs despite the upfront cost.
> 
> Choice is yours.


Even with a good quality saddle, horses still benefit from chiro and massage. They're no different than us humans. Horses will get sore no matter what and if they don't, it's not normal.

Just because my current saddle was cheap, it doesn't mean its a crap saddle, it's just old, like 20 years old.


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## egrogan

Why just be limited to the local stores? Go to those stores to try on and sit in styles you like, then find online consignors, particularly those where you can get used versions. I don't know anything about Western saddles, but for English saddles, there are several high end consignors that do 5-day shipped trial periods. I ended up with a gorgeous gently used saddle that fit my horse and I- for half the price of buying new- going that route. I also tried 3 others on trial that were a bust. I lined up the saddle fitter to come out one of the days while I had the 4 saddles on trial. He helped me finalize my pick and then was able to adjust it once I finalized payment that same day with the consignor.


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## Hoofpic

I was quite happy to hear that Fly is going through a growth spurt, she's getting taller! I know she won't go from 14.2hh to 15hh over the next couple years, but it's good to know that she is still going to get a bit taller.

Though I had a former boarder tell me that her mare (she bought was she was 4 years old and she was 14.2hh) and over the next 2 years she became 15hh. So you never know.

But right now if you see the pic from today, you can tell that Fly's hind end is noticably taller than months ago.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> I would never consider using a neoprene cinch.


Why not? Does Fly react to neoprene?

I have ridden 100 mile rides using a neoprene cinch. You need to find what works for the horse. You may be selling yourself (and Fly) short by making assumptions about things like this.


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## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> Even with a good quality saddle, horses still benefit from chiro and massage. They're no different than us humans. Horses will get sore no matter what and if they don't, it's not normal.
> 
> Just because my current saddle was cheap, it doesn't mean its a crap saddle, it's just old, like 20 years old.


I agree with chiro and massage, especially for a horse that is being ridden/worked hard, which Fly isn't at the moment. But you can help the horse the most by providing her with a quality saddle. When you bought this 20 year old saddle, did you check the tree to make sure it wasn't cracked or twisted? 

Spend money now, or spend more later. The choice is yours.


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## bsms

This was 13.0 hands Cowboy being ridden by my 4'11" DIL, with a 30" rectangular wool pad and a 34" long (IIRC) blanket on top. The saddle length was 26.5":










My horses have never had a chiro. They really are not ridden all that hard, and they show no signs of having sore backs. My 58 year old back does jogging, riding and weightlifting, and it doesn't get a chiro or massage either.

What really opened my eyes to saddle fit was when Mia's saddle arrived. A few days later, I tried mounting from the ground (she was 15.3) without the cinch - and it worked fine. It was the only time I tried it, and maybe not a smart thing to do...but a saddle that fits like that has to be a good thing for the horse!

Can't do that with her custom saddle on Bandit. But he has picked his way down some steep spots, inching along, and climbed up some spots where I was getting a face full of mane, and the saddle stays put - without a back cinch or breast collar.

The Nikkels write:








​ 
"This is like a good fitting tree on a horse. The shapes match so there is contact over most of the surface area of the spoons, and they stay in place. The pressure of an angled cinch is not going to change the position of this tree on the horse, nor is anything except the most extreme riding conditions, if that. Cowboys can drag calves to the fire all day and even rope bulls with good fitting saddles and not need a breast collar. The same goes for riding up and down hills. If the tree fits, the saddle stays put."

Of cutlery and saddle fit...

I have no idea what a chiro and massage would cost around here - for me or the horse. But I suspect the bill for regular visits would soon be more than a semi-custom saddle would run. Heck, the vet won't even drive past my mailbox for less than $75.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

phantomhorse13 said:


> Why not? Does Fly react to neoprene?
> 
> I have ridden 100 mile rides using a neoprene cinch. You need to find what works for the horse. You may be selling yourself (and Fly) short by making assumptions about things like this.


Neoprene with squishy gel in them are the bomb. Most of ours are that, and we have one that utilizes some velcro so you can take the part off that the horse gets all sweaty and throw it in the washer to get it clean.


Also, make no mistake. I'm not saying buy a cheap saddle cheap. Cheap saddles are more trouble than they're worth. We have a used, cheap saddle. The horn broke after a few uses. Its still okay for just puttering around with, but its mostly retired and not worth fixing.

I was saying there are perfectly good, some very excellent saddles by quality makers that sell cheap if you are patient and willing to ask the seller to negotiate the price, then do little turd polishing (cleaning, replace the latigo, maybe a concho here or there, a keeper, etc.). Some tack consignors and 'flippers' will ship them to you at your expense and I think OP could still come out ahead. Have a really nice quality saddle for a good price... and most importantly, one that fits right and will last.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Why just be limited to the local stores? Go to those stores to try on and sit in styles you like, then find online consignors, particularly those where you can get used versions. I don't know anything about Western saddles, but for English saddles, there are several high end consignors that do 5-day shipped trial periods. I ended up with a gorgeous gently used saddle that fit my horse and I- for half the price of buying new- going that route. I also tried 3 others on trial that were a bust. I lined up the saddle fitter to come out one of the days while I had the 4 saddles on trial. He helped me finalize my pick and then was able to adjust it once I finalized payment that same day with the consignor.


Actually all the stores I hit were out of town. There is one shop that I will hit, it's a consignment tack shop and there are a few boarders who got their saddles there. They have a big selection and very well priced. My BO and one of my friends is a big fan of them. Worth checking out at least.

The largest tack store here in Alberta have over 1000 saddles in stock and are huge. You can definitely find just about anything there, but it's expensive. This is where I bought my current saddle, I got lucky though.

I was considering getting an aussie saddle and found one that fit measured out quite well until I saw the price tag of $2500.


----------



## greentree

I have never been in a saddle shop that would not let you leave a credit card and take a saddle on trial. My Bob Marshall was bought online, and I sent the seller 2 checks...one for shipping, and one for the saddle, in case it did not fit(me...it is treeless)


----------



## Hoofpic

Well (I wasn't going to), but I just checked my bank account and what do you know, my boss paid me today. Good to see!!!!

I'm still mad at him for not getting back but at least he took care of it and didn't just sit on it until the next pay day (next Tues).


----------



## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> Why not? Does Fly react to neoprene?
> 
> I have ridden 100 mile rides using a neoprene cinch. You need to find what works for the horse. You may be selling yourself (and Fly) short by making assumptions about things like this.


I would rather have a cinch that self adjusts and mohair is more breathable, plus get's less dirty. I don't even think I've had to clean mine yet. And they look really nice. 

Mohair totally suits Fly seeing how the cinch is identical colors to her mane lol.


----------



## bsms

I need to get a cinch that self-adjusts and doesn't get very dirty. I guess my mohair cinches are the cheap ones! I think the inside portion of my mohair cinch has become a horsehair cinch...


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> in the winter ill only be riding 1-2 times a week if Im lucky


Wait, WHAT? Are you kidding me? Dude, you cannot ride your very green horse once a week and expect to make any progress at all. Mine is semi-green and I ride him five or six times a week, with a few rides from my trainer on top of that. You don't have to go crazy like I do (hey, I'm building an _athlete_, okay? lol), but if you ever want to be able to stop calling Fly green, you're going to have to put the hours on her.

If you can really only manage once a week for the whole winter, I really would recommend you consider sending her out for training for the next couple of months. You'll come out of it with a much better, safer horse, plus she'll be in way better physical shape than she would be after a winter of working once a week.



Hoofpic said:


> Well I don't need a new pad but I will start my browsing for saddles right now.


Honestly, the "online only" way of buying shouldn't even enter your mind (unless a trial is involved). Tack stores always over charge, that's true, but they're a great resource! Go in, check out some saddles, find one you like, take it home and check the fit/do a trial ride in it, return it, and then find the same model/size online. AtokaGhosthorse is right, be patient and don't be afraid to look at saddles that have good bones, even if they're dirty/missing some parts. And don't limit yourself to Kijiji, you can easily buy from other countries (like the US) and make up the shipping cost in how much you save.

If you go to the consignment tack shop, you need to be careful. If they have a trial policy, great! If not, you need to know exactly what you need before you go in to avoid purchasing _another_ saddle that doesn't fit.

Sell your current saddle privately, you can probably make more.

Your "big question" should not be whether you get a saddle with a back cinch or not... that's very low on the priority list, back cinch's are only truly necessary on horses that are doing a lot of hard roping/ranch work. They're good for trail riding, but not 100% needed—and honestly it doesn't sound like you're going to be doing a lot of intense trail riding in the near future, with how you're progressing with Fly.

You're paying way too much for your accessories. Like phantomhorse and AtokaGhosthorse were saying, don't count out cheaper materials because you somehow equate a low price point with inferior quality. Mohair is great, but it's not the end all be all of cinches, and $300CAD ($225USD) for a pad for a horse that you're only riding once a week (and probably not very hard, since she's green and you're a beginner) is ridiculous. No going back now, but don't say that you "had no choice".


----------



## Hoofpic

From today, this is the spot that my massage lady said to have the pad and saddle. I will carry a print out for reference and use it for the next while until I completely memorize the positioning. I do not have the knowledge or ability yet to go by feel so I will need to reference off these pictures until I memorize it.

Notice how Fly's hind end is noticably taller than before. She wasn't this downhill before.


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## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> I agree with chiro and massage, especially for a horse that is being ridden/worked hard, which Fly isn't at the moment. But you can help the horse the most by providing her with a quality saddle. When you bought this 20 year old saddle, did you check the tree to make sure it wasn't cracked or twisted?
> 
> Spend money now, or spend more later. The choice is yours.


Yes I checked the tree to make sure it wasn't twisted or cracked, I did the stress test where you lay it on it's side on the grass and put pressure on it. I even got my BO to look over it and he said it was in really good shape, no repairs needed and all I had to do was put Neatsfoot oil on it.

I will only get my chiro lady out if Fly absolutely needs it. She's only been out twice and that was within 2 months almost a year ago. Otherwise, I don't think doing ongoing chiro on a horse is particularly good for them unless they are being worked hard. Massage though I find any horse can benefit from no matter how hard they are worked.

I only plan on having the massage lady out once every 3 months, so it's not too bad.


----------



## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> This was 13.0 hands Cowboy being ridden by my 4'11" DIL, with a 30" rectangular wool pad and a 34" long (IIRC) blanket on top. The saddle length was 26.5":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My horses have never had a chiro. They really are not ridden all that hard, and they show no signs of having sore backs. My 58 year old back does jogging, riding and weightlifting, and it doesn't get a chiro or massage either.
> 
> What really opened my eyes to saddle fit was when Mia's saddle arrived. A few days later, I tried mounting from the ground (she was 15.3) without the cinch - and it worked fine. It was the only time I tried it, and maybe not a smart thing to do...but a saddle that fits like that has to be a good thing for the horse!
> 
> Can't do that with her custom saddle on Bandit. But he has picked his way down some steep spots, inching along, and climbed up some spots where I was getting a face full of mane, and the saddle stays put - without a back cinch or breast collar.
> 
> The Nikkels write:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> "This is like a good fitting tree on a horse. The shapes match so there is contact over most of the surface area of the spoons, and they stay in place. The pressure of an angled cinch is not going to change the position of this tree on the horse, nor is anything except the most extreme riding conditions, if that. Cowboys can drag calves to the fire all day and even rope bulls with good fitting saddles and not need a breast collar. The same goes for riding up and down hills. If the tree fits, the saddle stays put."
> 
> Of cutlery and saddle fit...
> 
> I have no idea what a chiro and massage would cost around here - for me or the horse. But I suspect the bill for regular visits would soon be more than a semi-custom saddle would run. Heck, the vet won't even drive past my mailbox for less than $75.


Chiro here is not cheap, looking at $100 per visit (that includes travel fee) for a good reputable chiro. Some will 
give discounts if they are adjusting more than one horse in one visit. Massage is cheaper but the first visit is always more expensive because they have to do an assessment and it's usually an extra 45mins long.

My chiro was $100 per visit but she did an amazing job on Fly. She even said it with her own words, Fly wasn't the same horse after she had her first adjustment done. She was amazed just how well she healed.

Same goes with the red light that Fly got when she was lame on her front left. After the second one, she was a completely different horse. The vet couldn't believe it. I remember having a lesson with my trainer (at that time at the old barn) and we were doing groundwork. She was lunging Fly in the arena on a 20ft circle and Fly was trotting around like nothing. She said "she's not lame anymore, don't bother getting the vet out tomorrow". But I still had the vet out anyways because she had to do a second batch of shots on Fly so I got her to do a followup anyways and she pretty much was amazed.

So say what you will but I am a HUGE believer in chiro, massage and red light for horses. I am a big believer for them for myself so it's no surprise that I believe in it for horses.


----------



## Hoofpic

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Neoprene with squishy gel in them are the bomb. Most of ours are that, and we have one that utilizes some velcro so you can take the part off that the horse gets all sweaty and throw it in the washer to get it clean.
> 
> 
> Also, make no mistake. I'm not saying buy a cheap saddle cheap. Cheap saddles are more trouble than they're worth. We have a used, cheap saddle. The horn broke after a few uses. Its still okay for just puttering around with, but its mostly retired and not worth fixing.
> 
> I was saying there are perfectly good, some very excellent saddles by quality makers that sell cheap if you are patient and willing to ask the seller to negotiate the price, then do little turd polishing (cleaning, replace the latigo, maybe a concho here or there, a keeper, etc.). Some tack consignors and 'flippers' will ship them to you at your expense and I think OP could still come out ahead. Have a really nice quality saddle for a good price... and most importantly, one that fits right and will last.


I will find a new saddle for Fly, but my massage lady does have a point. Should I wait for the Spring?

How much do you think Fly's formation will change this Winter? Afterall, look at how it's changed in the past 7-8 months. She is now going through a growth spurt and in a couple months her withers will most likely come up some more so she is not as downhill.

The massage lady said yes, the tree is too wide on her current saddle, but it's still serviceable for the time being and the fit could be a lot worse. It will not do any damage to Fly by continuing to use the saddle. 

Someone on here mentioned that the sides of the gullet would be pressing into her withers but my massage lady did a check tonight, she pressed on Fly's withers and put quite a bit of pressure on it with her fingers and Fly didn't react at all. She said that her withers weren't tight or tense at all. She said that if my current saddle was digging into her withers then Fly would most definitely have reacted and most likely quite loudly.

I am going to casually browse saddles. I need to first find out how to measure the height of the cantle and length of the fenders, then I will try to find 3 or 4 saddles that fit my measurements, take them to the barn and get a saddle fitter out to test all of them out.

My massage lady said that if I want a really good saddle fitter who does just that and only that for a living, she can refer me.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I have never been in a saddle shop that would not let you leave a credit card and take a saddle on trial. My Bob Marshall was bought online, and I sent the seller 2 checks...one for shipping, and one for the saddle, in case it did not fit(me...it is treeless)


All the tack stores here do trials on their saddles, it's just different lengths of time, some do 7 days, others do 14. You have to buy them first and they just refund you if it doesn't fit.


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse

How old is she?


----------



## Hoofpic

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> How old is she?


5.5. Turns 6 in March.


----------



## elle1959

bsms said:


> I need to get a cinch that self-adjusts and doesn't get very dirty. I guess my mohair cinches are the cheap ones! I think the inside portion of my mohair cinch has become a horsehair cinch...


Same here, and I don't ride that much. At least my horse and the mohair are the same color


----------



## Whinnie

Wow, learn something new, I did! I had no idea that a 5 1/2 year old horse would go though a big growth spurt and get taller! I know they fill out as the get older, but I didn't know about getting taller. My mare didn't grow taller at all and I got her when she was barely 3 1/2 and now she is 7. She is exactly the same height. 

So if your mare changes shape that drastically from month to month, year to year, how many saddles are you going to buy?


----------



## jenkat86

I think before you start looking for a saddle, you need to really understand saddle fitting. You need to learn the parts of a saddle, why they are there and how they are used. The people on this forum have been more than generous in leading you in the right direction, but it's going to take a lot more effort on your part. You are not going to learn what you need to know by one massage therapist, or one saddle fitter. You are in a PRIME location for western horse tack. Take advantage of that. Look up custom saddle makers in your area. Call them- talk to them, ask questions. Learn from them. You don't have to buy a saddle from them and often times their information is free. Go to this Peter Campbell clinic and specifically ask about saddle fit. Have him show you how his saddle fits his horse. 

I seriously doubt that Fly has any considerable growing left, but I could be wrong. Her body conformation can change- but that will be due to muscling up which will only happen if she is ridden more. Like...5 days a week, consistent, collected riding. I think some of the best advice as of late that you have received is to SEND Fly to a trainer for 30 or 60 days this winter. Get here away from that farm, with a different trainer that will ride her like she needs. All the while you get lessons on more seasoned horses. That trainer will most likely ride her in a different saddle, and you can see how it fits compared to yours. FYI- I consider my trainer's input more than anything when looking for a saddle for my mare. 

When she returns, she will be in probably the best shape attainable, you will have gained knowledge of how to ride and how to pick a proper saddle.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I would rather have a cinch that self adjusts and mohair is more breathable, plus get's less dirty. I don't even think I've had to clean mine yet. And they look really nice.
> 
> Mohair totally suits Fly seeing how the cinch is identical colors to her mane lol.


What do you mean, the cinch self adjusts? How? And I always thought if the horse was dirty, it would rub off on the cinch and get the cinch dirty. What is your secret? Do you bath her every day?


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## 6gun Kid

I am a huge believer in mohair cinches, and in fact make them. But a) even I am confused by they "self adjust", and b) if yours isn't dirty, you aren't riding hard enough. Selling saddle with or without your cinch, it is a whatever you prefer thing, it isn't like you have a top end brand or custom cinch. As for the back cinch, put it on and leave it on. Or take it off and leave it off, the kind of riding you are doing, it doesn't matter. However, if you do use one make sure you attach it to the front cinch, with a cinch hobble.


----------



## greentree

Please consider the previous posters advice about SENDING Fly to a trainer. That money would be SO well spent. 

It would allowvYOU to learn to ride, instead of dealing with these green horse issues. We are not telking you that "you can't do it", but it would give both of you CONCENTRATED work, but seperately. 


One of the marks of a TRUE horseman is knowing what their strengths and weaknesses are, and when the HORSE needs some help in an area that is not their strength.


----------



## 6gun Kid

greentree said:


> Please consider the previous posters advice about SENDING Fly to a trainer. That money would be SO well spent.
> 
> It would allowvYOU to learn to ride, instead of dealing with these green horse issues. We are not telking you that "you can't do it", but it would give both of you CONCENTRATED work, but seperately.
> 
> 
> One of the marks of a TRUE horseman is knowing what their strengths and weaknesses are, and when the HORSE needs some help in an area that is not their strength.


 LIKE, LIKE, and, RELIKE!!!!


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> Wow, learn something new, I did! I had no idea that a 5 1/2 year old horse would go though a big growth spurt and get taller! I know they fill out as the get older, but I didn't know about getting taller. My mare didn't grow taller at all and I got her when she was barely 3 1/2 and now she is 7. She is exactly the same height.
> 
> So if your mare changes shape that drastically from month to month, year to year, how many saddles are you going to buy?


Nobody expected it and I think when I tell my trainer and BO they will perhaps be the most surprised people of all. I told two of my friends and they were shocked.

This is why I did not go the custom saddle route and my massage lady and my BO and my trainer said it was the best choice I could have made (when I bought the first saddle).


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Please consider the previous posters advice about SENDING Fly to a trainer. That money would be SO well spent.
> 
> It would allowvYOU to learn to ride, instead of dealing with these green horse issues. We are not telking you that "you can't do it", but it would give both of you CONCENTRATED work, but seperately.
> 
> 
> One of the marks of a TRUE horseman is knowing what their strengths and weaknesses are, and when the HORSE needs some help in an area that is not their strength.


I need to get this off my chest because I want to address this for good. I will not be sending Fly off to another place for training. If I was to get more miles put on Fly, I will have my own trainer do this at the barn where she is at right now. She is willing to do it if I want it and is more than capable. She has finished many green horses before, so I have full confidence in her. 

Again, I will not send Fly anywhere. My trainer would put the miles on her. I'm going to talk to her about this the next time I see her.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> What do you mean, the cinch self adjusts? How? And I always thought if the horse was dirty, it would rub off on the cinch and get the cinch dirty. What is your secret? Do you bath her every day?


What I meant was that it contours to the shape of their barrel. It's just more comfy for them.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I think before you start looking for a saddle, you need to really understand saddle fitting. You need to learn the parts of a saddle, why they are there and how they are used. The people on this forum have been more than generous in leading you in the right direction, but it's going to take a lot more effort on your part. You are not going to learn what you need to know by one massage therapist, or one saddle fitter. You are in a PRIME location for western horse tack. Take advantage of that. Look up custom saddle makers in your area. Call them- talk to them, ask questions. Learn from them. You don't have to buy a saddle from them and often times their information is free. Go to this Peter Campbell clinic and specifically ask about saddle fit. Have him show you how his saddle fits his horse.
> 
> I seriously doubt that Fly has any considerable growing left, but I could be wrong. Her body conformation can change- but that will be due to muscling up which will only happen if she is ridden more. Like...5 days a week, consistent, collected riding. I think some of the best advice as of late that you have received is to SEND Fly to a trainer for 30 or 60 days this winter. Get here away from that farm, with a different trainer that will ride her like she needs. All the while you get lessons on more seasoned horses. That trainer will most likely ride her in a different saddle, and you can see how it fits compared to yours. FYI- I consider my trainer's input more than anything when looking for a saddle for my mare.
> 
> When she returns, she will be in probably the best shape attainable, you will have gained knowledge of how to ride and how to pick a proper saddle.


This is why really wanted to go to the Mane Event in BC this past weekend so I could sit in on more lectures and really talk with all the saddle makers and vendors there, but I plan on doing it next April when the show comes back up to Red Deer. 

I will be going to Peter's clinic this weekend but only on Sunday, looks like I will be going by myself again as my friends dropped out. It doesn't seem like my friends are nearly as interested or serious as I am attending shows and clinics. 

I will take your suggestion and contact some saddle fitters to see if I can spend the day with them (even if it's just a couple hours) to get taught more about saddle fitting and if I can learn the process of how they are made that would be awesome. Chances are, they will all want money for their time. I have lots of saddle fitts and shops in my province but none of them are that generous with their time.


----------



## Mulefeather

greentree said:


> Please consider the previous posters advice about SENDING Fly to a trainer. That money would be SO well spent.
> 
> It would allowvYOU to learn to ride, instead of dealing with these green horse issues. We are not telking you that "you can't do it", but it would give both of you CONCENTRATED work, but seperately.
> 
> 
> One of the marks of a TRUE horseman is knowing what their strengths and weaknesses are, and when the HORSE needs some help in an area that is not their strength.


150% agree with this. A green horse with a green rider is basically the blind leading the blind - you are not learning what a broke horse feels, acts, and reacts like, and Fly is not learning consistency, or being taught with the finesse of an effective, experienced rider/trainer. You need to know what to ask, how to ask, and what do to next to be an effective rider. 

The best option would be to have Fly work with a trainer consistently, and you take lessons on an experienced horse in your chosen discipline. 

With horses, learning the job has to go one of two ways- there MUST be balance. With an inexperienced rider or driver, the horse must make up the difference in experience. With an inexperienced horse, the rider or driver must make up the difference. 

None of us are telling you that you can't get there - every single one of us started at the bottom. Nobody is born knowing how to ride or train. But working with an experienced horse first gives you your "base normal" - what is normal, what is not. What needs to be corrected, what needs to be finessed, what is something you can or cannot control.


----------



## Hoofpic

After talking with my massage lady yesterday she said that I have 3 options.

1) I can have a saddle fitter come out (she can refer me to a very good one), come out to my barn, fit Fly and do all the measurements, then he makes me a custom saddle. This would be the method if I want the least amount of running around, shopping and foot work, but by far the most costly and she even suggested that custom is not the best idea right now because Fly is still growing and her form will be changing throughout the year. 

2) Haul Fly to a saddle shop and fit her there, this method is popular where I live, a lot of people do it. But if I was to do this, that would mean that I would need to trust and rely on the people at the saddle shop to do the job right. I was also told that you need to actually ride the horse to see if a saddle fits on them and that you can't just throw it on them and judge from that. Is that true? If true, then this method would be useless and a waste of time.

3) Do the measurements myself, take it to saddle shops, find 3 or 4 saddles that fall within those measurements, bring them back to the barn and have a saddle fitter out for a couple hours to try all of them out. Rinse and repeat if none of them fit. This would be the most legwork for me but by far the most cost effective.

I will most likely do #3 simply because I have some time as I don't need to particularly rush out and buy a saddle today as like my massage lady said, the saddle I have now is servicable for the time being and won't do any damage to Fly.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> I need to get this off my chest because I want to address this for good. I will not be sending Fly off to another place for training. .


 Why? That honestly is the best advice you have been given on this thread. You don't know what you don't know, and refuse to listen when somebody is giving you the answer. Your horse doesn't need miles, your horse needs _*training!!!* _Something that you are not capable of doing.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, You're making a big mistake by not sending Fly off to a real trainer to further her saddle work. The lady at the barn is not a horse trainer, she's an instructor who works with the rider---you need to take lessons from her using a schoolmaster horse who will take you further in your riding abilities rather than try to learn riding on a green horse. 


A question....if your shoes don't fit you, are you going to wait till spring to replace them? The same is true of a saddle for Fly---she needs a saddle that properly fits her, not just one to get by. You also don't have the knowledge and experience to properly fit a saddle, so you need to hire a real saddle fitter, not the person who give Fly a massage. For a comparison on purchasing saddles, we bought 4 different saddles in less than a year as our TWH gelding (rescued at body condition score of 1) continued to put on weight after he was cleared by the vet for riding, matured, muscled up, and gained condition. Part of owning a horse is being willing to spend whatever money is needed to insure his tack fits! This gelding, between the age of 4 1/2 and 5 yo, grew 4 inches, partially due to being starved when he should have been growing.


Also, at 5 1/2 yo, it's unlikely that Fly will grow up, but she will put on muscle and condition IF she is ridden correctly which will change her physique. However unless you are riding correctly and doing the right exercises over miles and for hours 5 days a week, that muscling and conditioning is not going to happen!


----------



## greentree

You would NOT have to "trust and rely on the peopke at the saddle shop to do it right" if you watch that saddle fitting video several MORE times, read the links provided several times, take your phone to the barn, put the saddle on Fly, and do what the guy in the video did, try it on a couple of other horses to see if you can feel a difference...
STUDY it until you KNOW it....heck, maybe even get your trainer involved in doing it!!!!She might learn something ,too!!!!!

Turn it into clinic at the barn, to make it FUN, and TEACH everybody something!!!

Stranger things HAVE happened.....

You really need to start thinking OUTSIDE your little box....


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, You're making a big mistake by not sending Fly off to a real trainer to further her saddle work. The lady at the barn is not a horse trainer, she's an instructor who works with the rider---you need to take lessons from her using a schoolmaster horse who will take you further in your riding abilities rather than try to learn riding on a green horse.
> 
> 
> A question....if your shoes don't fit you, are you going to wait till spring to replace them? The same is true of a saddle for Fly---she needs a saddle that properly fits her, not just one to get by. You also don't have the knowledge and experience to properly fit a saddle, so you need to hire a real saddle fitter, not the person who give Fly a massage. For a comparison on purchasing saddles, we bought 4 different saddles in less than a year as our TWH gelding (rescued at body condition score of 1) continued to put on weight after he was cleared by the vet for riding, matured, muscled up, and gained condition. Part of owning a horse is being willing to spend whatever money is needed to insure his tack fits! This gelding, between the age of 4 1/2 and 5 yo, grew 4 inches, partially due to being starved when he should have been growing.
> 
> 
> Also, at 5 1/2 yo, it's unlikely that Fly will grow up, but she will put on muscle and condition IF she is ridden correctly which will change her physique. However unless you are riding correctly and doing the right exercises over miles and for hours 5 days a week, that muscling and conditioning is not going to happen!


What makes you think that my trainer isn't a horse trainer? She is. From talking with the BO and other friends who have known her over the years, she has finished off many horses that have been brought in from other places by their owners. They are usually here anywhere from 6 weeks to 3 or 4 months. I've seen her quite a bit work with these horses. 

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just saying what I've been told and have observed. Yes my trainer does do a lot of riding lessons working with the horse and rider, but my BO does get quite a few inquiries about having my trainer do training with their horse and them hauling their horse to our barn.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> 2) Haul Fly to a saddle shop and fit her there, this method is popular where I live, a lot of people do it. But if I was to do this, that would mean that I would need to trust and rely on the people at the saddle shop to do the job right. I was also told that you need to actually ride the horse to see if a saddle fits on them and that you can't just throw it on them and judge from that. Is that true? If true, then this method would be useless and a waste of time.
> .


...why would this be useless and a waste of time?

Again...you are assuming and you just assumed yourself right out of the (IMO) best option. 



Hoofpic said:


> But if I was to do this, that would mean that I would need to trust and rely on the people at the saddle shop to do the job right.


Uh...That's their job. That's their profession. That's why they are in business. Why would you NOT trust them?



Hoofpic said:


> I was also told that you need to actually ride the horse to see if a saddle fits on them and that you can't just throw it on them and judge from that.


Most of these places have a small area to ride, a round pen or whatever. 



Hoofpic said:


> If true, then this method would be useless and a waste of time.


How on earth did you come to this conclusion?

...so again...how and why is this useless and a waste of time?

Sorry if I seem short here...but I cannot believe the amount of things you are so 'matter of fact' about, when you have no actual knowledge of it. There is a reason that is the most popular option in your area. IT WORKS!

But by all means, do option three, just like last time...since it worked so well.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, You're making a big mistake by not sending Fly off to a real trainer to further her saddle work. The lady at the barn is not a horse trainer, she's an instructor who works with the rider---you need to take lessons from her using a schoolmaster horse who will take you further in your riding abilities rather than try to learn riding on a green horse.
> 
> 
> A question....if your shoes don't fit you, are you going to wait till spring to replace them? The same is true of a saddle for Fly---she needs a saddle that properly fits her, not just one to get by. You also don't have the knowledge and experience to properly fit a saddle, so you need to hire a real saddle fitter, not the person who give Fly a massage. For a comparison on purchasing saddles, we bought 4 different saddles in less than a year as our TWH gelding (rescued at body condition score of 1) continued to put on weight after he was cleared by the vet for riding, matured, muscled up, and gained condition. Part of owning a horse is being willing to spend whatever money is needed to insure his tack fits! This gelding, between the age of 4 1/2 and 5 yo, grew 4 inches, partially due to being starved when he should have been growing.
> 
> 
> Also, at 5 1/2 yo, it's unlikely that Fly will grow up, but she will put on muscle and condition IF she is ridden correctly which will change her physique. However unless you are riding correctly and doing the right exercises over miles and for hours 5 days a week, that muscling and conditioning is not going to happen!


Normally my massage lady would say to replace the saddle ASAP and run out and get a new one ASAP if it was a terrible fit and/or causing the horse discomfort and pain, but she said this wasn't the case with my saddle and Fly. She agreed that it is too wide around the tree, but she said that the fit could be a lot worse, it's servicable for the time being and it's not causing Fly any issues. The fork around the tree was not digging into her withers at all, there was no soreness there.

If there was, then yes she said she would have told me to replace the saddle right away.

I'm not ignoring your advice, I already said that I will be buying a new saddle and that I'm starting my browsing for new saddles TODAY. If I find a good saddle right now or during the Winter, then I will buy it. What I'm saying is that the saddle now isn't doing any damage to Fly (the old lesson saddle indeed was and that's why I needed a chiro out), so if I have to use it for the time being until I find a better saddle, it's not going to do any harm to Fly. 

I hope you understand where I am coming from.


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## jenkat86

@Hoofpic look up "muscle atrophy." It can be caused by poor fitting saddles, including ones that are too wide.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> What makes you think that my trainer isn't a horse trainer?.


 Oh I don't know, how about the fact she didn't recognize that you were saddling your horse wrong ? Or that she doesn't believe in saddle fit? Or sees the purpose in chiro for a horse? There have been so many red flags all through this thread of where your trainer said/did things that were questionable.


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## Hoofpic

Here is what I'm going to do, I'm going to search for a saddle fitter who is willing to come out to the barn and do all the measurements that they need to do for me to take those measurements to a saddle shop. The only thing is that I will be telling them right off the bat that I have zero interest in getting a custom fit saddle, so I'm sure that I will be getting a lot who are immediately not interested in helping me. Afterall, they want to sell you a custom saddle right?

When I go to the saddle shops, I will rely on the people at the shops to help me find saddles that have my exact measurements. I gather a bunch, take them back to the barn and then I have that same saddle fitter back out to try them out. 

I think this is the best route for me to take.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> What I meant was that it contours to the shape of their barrel. It's just more comfy for them.


Every chinch and girth I have ever used has done that. String, mohair, leather, neoprene. A cinch or girth is flexible and therefore conforms.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Oh I don't know, how about the fact she didn't recognize that you were saddling your horse wrong ? Or that she doesn't believe in saddle fit? Or sees the purpose in chiro for a horse? There have been so many red flags all through this thread of where your trainer said/did things that were questionable.


I don't think it's red flags. The whole chiro and massage thing about my trainer not believing in it, there's not much you can do. I gaurentee you that not every trainer out there believes in it. My BO doesn't believe in it either, it doesn't mean he is less of a horseman. It's just a preference and everyone has what they believe and not believe in, I'm not going to hold a grudge against my trainer for it. 

She told me her EXACT reason for why she doesn't believe in equine chiro or massage and I see her point. Her reason is because she feels that equine chiros and massage therapists aren't qualified enough in terms of their education. ANd she does have a point. You look at all the chiros and massage therapists where I live and you can get your certification by taking a 1 year course. Go online and look up equine massage and 90% of them are people who just got their certification within the past couple years. 

This is why the Alberta Equestrian Federation here are cracking down now and upping the requirements in people getting certified for equine chiro and massage. Because there are too many out there with no to very little experience. 

So it's not so much that she doesn't feel that horses don't and can't benefit from massage and chiro, but more so that she doesn't trust the people performing the acts. Their lack of education, experience is why she wouldn't trust them is what she told me last year when I arrived at the barn and just met her. 

I see her point and I don't blame her for where she stands. Thankfully my massage lady has been doing equine massage for over 20 years now and her list of courses and certifications that she has taken is very extensive. 

I guess this is a bit more difficult for me to explain than I thought it would be. My trainer knows the importance in fitting saddles to the horse, but she just doesn't believe in paying for custom saddles (especially on a younger horse), unless that horse's formation is out of wack or they absolutely need it (for example, like if they have one wither larger than the other, etc). 

She's just not the type who will spend huge amounts of money on tack. She has 3 english saddles for her own horses and one of them is a Wintek. There's nothing wrong with that. Would it be nice if she believed in having a saddle fitter out? Yes but because she doesn't believe in it, it doesn't mean she is careless about it.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Here is what I'm going to do, I'm going to search for a saddle fitter who is willing to come out to the barn and do all the measurements that they need to do for me to take those measurements to a saddle shop. The only thing is that I will be telling them right off the bat that I have zero interest in getting a custom fit saddle, so I'm sure that I will be getting a lot who are immediately not interested in helping me. Afterall, they want to sell you a custom saddle right?
> 
> When I go to the saddle shops, I will rely on the people at the shops to help me find saddles that have my exact measurements. I gather a bunch, take them back to the barn and then I have that same saddle fitter back out to try them out.
> 
> I think this is the best route for me to take.



This is a perfect example of how little you know and understand about horses in general and saddle fitting specifically----there is much more to saddle fitting than just measurements! You need to look at bar angles, make wither and back tracings and forms to take to the tack shops, understand how the horse's movement affect that hunk of ridged tree and leather on the horse's back, recognize what various sweat marks mean on both the horse's back and on the saddle pad, and have a good basic understanding of horse anatomy!


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Normally my massage lady would say to replace the saddle ASAP and run out and get a new one ASAP if it was a terrible fit and/or causing the horse discomfort and pain, but she said this wasn't the case with my saddle and Fly.
> 
> She agreed that it is too wide around the tree, but she said that the fit could be a lot worse, it's servicable for the time being and it's not causing Fly any issues. The fork around the tree was not digging into her withers at all, there was no soreness there.
> 
> If there was, then yes she said she would have told me to replace the saddle right away.
> 
> What I'm saying is that the saddle now isn't doing any damage to Fly (the old lesson saddle indeed was and that's why I needed a chiro out), so if I have to use it for the time being until I find a better saddle, it's not going to do any harm "


OK, so I'm confused. The saddle is too wide. BUT it is not causing any harm or damage. So why bother to get another one???????


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> OK, so I'm confused. The saddle is too wide. BUT it is not causing any harm or damage. So why bother to get another one???????


She said that Fly didn't show any signs of soreness or tightness in the withers yesterday. The pad that I have really ate up a lot of that space at the fork of the tree and even though she would still replace the saddle, she said that it's still servicable and isn't causing any damage to Fly. I don't know how else to explain it, I feel that I'm having to defend my massage lady.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> She told me her EXACT reason for why she doesn't believe in equine chiro or massage and I see her point. *Her reason is because she feels that equine chiros and massage therapists aren't qualified enough in terms of their education.* ANd she does have a point. You look at all the chiros and massage therapists where I live and you can get your certification by taking a 1 year course. Go online and look up equine massage and 90% of them are people who just got their certification within the past couple years.
> .


And how about your trainer's education? Anybody that's been around horses for 5 minutes can call themselves a trainer. After all, all interaction with a horse is "training," is it not?



Hoofpic said:


> She said that Fly didn't show any signs of soreness or tightness in the withers yesterday. The pad that I have really ate up a lot of that space and even though she would still replace the saddle, she said that it's still servicable and isn't causing any damage to Fly. I don't know how else to explain it, I feel that I'm having to defend my massage lady.


No soreness in the withers...what about the rest of her back?


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> I don't think it's red flags


 you don't know enough about horses to recognize a red flag


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> And how about your trainer's education? Anybody that's been around horses for 5 minutes can call themselves a trainer. After all, all interaction with a horse is "training," is it not?


I was talking with one of my friends a few weeks back and she was telling me about my trainers education in the equine world and I was surprised just how many courses she has taken and how many certifications she has. She didn't just learn from my BO all her life, she has travelled for her education as well. I don't remember every single one but she listed off about 6 or 7 (and that's just going off her memory) and a couple of them immediately rang a bell because they sounded familiar. I'm curious what these were but I do know that my trainer has an extensive education in the horse world and remember she is only 31.



> No soreness in the withers...what about the rest of her back?


She had a bit of a muscle spasm/tightness along the right side of her topline. Nothing major, the massage lady just described it as mild and she used red light on it. She said it's most likely from being not being completely balanced when riding her and being more to the left. Afterall I am left handed and that did make sense because if I canter Fly to the left, I have a tougher time keeping straight because I will fall to the left, whereas cantering to the right I don't have this problem.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> She said that Fly didn't show any signs of soreness or tightness in the withers yesterday. The pad that I have really ate up a lot of that space at the fork of the tree and even though she would still replace the saddle, she said that it's still servicable and isn't causing any damage to Fly. I don't know how else to explain it, I feel that I'm having to defend my massage lady.


I just don't understand if the saddle isn't causing any problems why you would need to replace it at all. That just doesn't make sense, it is serviceable but needs to be replaced. I would think it is one or the other.


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## Prairie

Hoof pic, didn't your massage lady tell you that your saddle fit Fly when you first bought it? That should be a big warning that she's not a saddle fitter since now you've discovered that the saddle is too wide, which puts pressure on Fly's withers and will certainly cause serious damage if you continue to ride in it more often. Others have already questioned your trainer's abilities since she seems to chatter constantly without really making any constructive suggestions to improve your riding. 




Did you even read the thread about the lady who just started riding? Compare where you are in your life with horses to where she is!


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## AtokaGhosthorse

At 5 and a half years, she is not going to drastically change in size or configuration unless she's dropping weight due to stress or illness. Additionally she will 'fill out' but her basic shape and build will remain the same. 

That saddle still ain't gonna fit. If anything, its going to fit WORSE as time goes on.

One other thing that raises a red flag on your trainer: You yourself said the trainer is spending zero time with Fly when you aren't around. I'm not sure now who the trainer is for. You or the horse?

Lastly, if the trainer didn't recognize immediately that you were saddling her wrong, yeah. That's not a trainer. That's someone that's hung the title on themselves. I have a slew of teenaged kids around my house that if you even got the sweat pad a little askew, you'd take a huge butt chewing off them. Each and every one has walked me through how to properly saddle all five of our horses over the last year, and each and every horse we have is wildly different in build and breed from the other, so subtle adjustments have had to be made in each one's rigging and tack, locations.

However, it appears that all the sound advice in the world is going to fall on deaf ears. One of two things are going to happen here: You and/or Fly are going to get seriously injured, or you're going to one day decide your horse is a bad horse, sell her for whatever you can get for her, to whoever will buy her once the horrible habits are 'stuck' for good, and then you're going to buy some other green broke horse and... rinse and repeat. 

And then someone like me is going to be picking them from an auction and trying desperately to undo all the damage done, probably failing, and deciding to just do the best I can with her and accept she is what she is, and that is: Ruined.

Heed the advice of these people. They've given you solid advice on serious training for your girl, and you've flatly refused to follow it. Whatever disaster follows from here, it will be on your head alone, not that poor horse, the 'trainer' or the equine chiro or masseuse.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Afterthought. Again, I hate to sound harsh, but reading back through here, you seem in love with the IDEA of owning a horse. Not so much the hard work, physical, and emotional effort, and the harsh reality that comes with it. I hope you wisen up, for your sake and Fly's.


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## StephaniHren

I'm sick of talking this saddle catastrophe to death when you're not listening, so I'm just going to sum it up: your saddle doesn't fit, your trainer sucks at fitting saddles, and you have no idea what you're doing... by all means, take measurements and go take a bunch of saddles on trial, but definitely have your saddle fitter there. On top of that, remember that saddle shops are like the worst place to buy from. Ebay is your friend. Don't buy something that you think is good, buy something that an expert thinks fits Fly.



Hoofpic said:


> 5.5. Turns 6 in March.


Your horse is pretty much done growing. She's not getting any bigger (and again, I already think you're a little too tall for her, especially since you're not very balanced in the saddle yet). More muscled, maybe—if you were actually doing any serious work with her. Also, your horse is way behind where she should be. You can't even take her on a tiny trail ride around the farm? Come on! She's going to be _six_ soon. You're not advancing her knowledge, you're stalling it.



Hoofpic said:


> I will not be sending Fly off to another place for training.


This is a mistake. You want my honest opinion? Your trainer is mediocre and you could probably use some time away from your horse while someone else works on her. It would be different if you had some idea of what you were doing, but as it is you're not helping Fly's training, you're hindering it with your muddled cues and improper corrections. I'm not convinced that if you put her in "training" with your current "trainer", you'd really see any progress, since you'd most likely be undoing anything she learned. Not intentionally, just from an lack of foundational knowledge.



Hoofpic said:


> What makes you think that my trainer isn't a horse trainer? She is.


Alright, fine, maybe she is. But you know what? She might have given herself the title of "horse trainer", but I bet she's not a very good one, judging from what we've heard about her on this thread. And you know what else? You can argue with us about this all you want, but 6gun is right: you don't really know enough about horses to recognize what constitutes a poor trainer. 

Your trainer sounds like someone who does it for a hobby or as a side business to her lesson program, not a professional who lives and breathes horse training. How many green horses has she really worked with? I take lessons with my trainer twice a week, and do you know what she's doing when she's not teaching? She's on a horse, training it. She rides probably six of them a day, five days a week. She starts new horses, she finishes old ones, and, most importantly, she has the ability to translate the work she's doing to me, so that I can apply those same principles to my own horse. Anything less than that, to me, isn't a trainer, it's a glorified catch rider.

A _good _trainer would be doing one of two things: she would either insist that you put Fly in training with her so that she can make some actual progress in her training (which she hasn't), or she would be teaching you how to correct your behavior on your own (which she shouldn't because you barely know the basics, let alone have the capability to understand high level training concepts). A good horseman recognizes when he's in over his head and has the wisdom to ask for help from someone with more experience (and then he actually listens to that advice, since that's the part you seem to have trouble with). Your trainer doesn't sound like someone I would go to for help.

Also, it's pretty much impossible to take a green horse and come out with a _completely finished_ horse after three months. If you think a horse with three months of training is completely finished, you've got a huge misconception about what a proper horse should look and feel like. If your trainer thinks that (along with thinking that chiro/saddle fit isn't worth the money and being unable to recognize that you're not saddling your horse correctly), I'd be even more worried.



AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Again, I hate to sound harsh, but reading back through here, you seem in love with the IDEA of owning a horse. Not so much the hard work, physical, and emotional effort, and the harsh reality that comes with it.


Atoka's right. You sound very much like a "fair weather" owner—someone that only comes out once a week out of obligation, maybe a twice a week if the weather's nice. I'm not saying that's not okay, there are a lot of great casual owners out there and you don't have to ride five or six times a week to love your horse—but as a green horse, Fly _needs_ to be getting more time, preferably from a true professional!

Mulefeather said it best, so I'm just going to repeat it: A green horse with a green rider is basically the blind leading the blind - you are not learning what a broke horse feels, acts, and reacts like, and Fly is not learning consistency, or being taught with the finesse of an effective, experienced rider/trainer. You need to know what to ask, how to ask, and what do to next to be an effective rider.


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## 6gun Kid

I know a trainer, has a college degree in equine something or other, at least 3 separate certifications and I wouldn't let her train a jackrabbit to hop! My wife, who has a degree in math, turns away training horses every month.


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## Prairie

Also, just because a rider can compete and win at the higher levels doesn't mean that persons can instruct a rider or train a horse! DD is an excellent rider and was # 1 in the nation with her mare, yet she sucks at training a horse at the basic levels and send all her youngsters to a trainer to get them started. She is good at working with riders no matte what their level is and can put the finishing, winning training on a horse after it's well started and understands the basics. 


There's a certain equine school in this country that's noted for teaching the students absolutely nothing, but those students sure have a nice diploma to hang on the wall. Just because someone has attended lots of clinics and has ridden at the top doesn't mean they can work with green and green!


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## natisha

I don't think Hoofpic is doing so bad. Sure he's green & bought a green horse but they both are going in baby steps, which is fine for what he wants. 

Fly seems like an agreeable horse. I don't see where any glaring long term problems are occurring. When she turned for home he was able to stop her & continue on. Sure, most of us wouldn't have let her turn at all but sometimes things just happen. I've had some crazy rides where all I could do was ride the ride presented to me. My box of tools may be bigger than Hoofpics but he did pretty good with the knowledge he has.

I'd rather see someone on the 7 year training program than someone using a big bit & spurs & having a go at figuring things out. 

To me Hoofpic does have some confidence issues but that can be overcome with exposure to different things & taking a few chances.

A full time trainer could work but to me the rider should know more than the horse & right now Hoofpic does. If Fly went to a trainer & came back with skills beyond Hoofpics level that could create a confused, resentful horse.

He is kind to his horse, is trying to learn, has no immediate goals, has plenty of time & is happy going slow so I give him a pass.


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## GMA100

natisha said:


> I don't think Hoofpic is doing so bad. Sure he's green & bought a green horse but they both are going in baby steps, which is fine for what he wants.
> 
> Fly seems like an agreeable horse. I don't see where any glaring long term problems are occurring. When she turned for home he was able to stop her & continue on. Sure, most of us wouldn't have let her turn at all but sometimes things just happen. I've had some crazy rides where all I could do was ride the ride presented to me. My box of tools may be bigger than Hoofpics but he did pretty good with the knowledge he has.
> 
> I'd rather see someone on the 7 year training program than someone using a big bit & spurs & having a go at figuring things out.
> 
> To me Hoofpic does have some confidence issues but that can be overcome with exposure to different things & taking a few chances.
> 
> A full time trainer could work but to me the rider should know more than the horse & right now Hoofpic does. If Fly went to a trainer & came back with skills beyond Hoofpics level that could create a confused, resentful horse.
> 
> He is kind to his horse, is trying to learn, has no immediate goals, has plenty of time & is happy going slow so I give him a pass.


THIS^^^ This is what I'm thinking. 
If Fly DID go to a trainer she would be very confused when she got back.


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## Mulefeather

Hoofpic, if nothing else moves you to consider the advice you are getting, think of it this way:

The folks on this forum are bringing together untold decades of experience with horses, training, and their own mistakes and blunders that they worked through. We're trying to help. What are we getting out of trying to help you? Not really anything, besides trying to help a green rider and handler be safe and enjoy riding safely, and see a green horse have the best future possible. 

The concern comes because your "trainer" has not shown that they're up to the task of helping you, in the eyes of many, MANY experienced horse folks here. Not catching major mistakes, not accepting the opinion of trained professionals (equine chiropractors, saddle fitters, equine massage therapists), not "believing" in something that the majority of horse folks know to be extremely important as something to be considered, and not advising you in a way that helps both you and Fly succeed and grow to the best of her ability...that shows us that she's a trainer only in name, but not in word or deed. 

To put it bluntly...you've been hooked by someone who sees you as a paycheck rather than someone who is taking you under her wing. Of course she's not going to advise sending Fly off to another trainer! Why would she take bread out of her own mouth, when you've so sweetly been spoon-feeding it to her upon request? 

If nothing else, consider Fly's future. We OWE it to our horses to leave them better than we found them, and all horses need the best education we can afford to give them- and if we're not the person to give them that, we need to set aside our own stubbornness and ego and do what is best for the horse.

With an animal that lives 25-30 years, the odds are good that Fly and you will part ways at some point - out of necessity, preference, or the fact that times change and situations change. You are likely not her last owner - none of us know what is around the bend 5, 10, or 20 years from now. 

What is so important with a green horse is setting them up to succeed, should they leave your hands. Just like a child - they need an education, and they need to learn a job. A horse without an education or a job is just like a person who does not have an education or job - their prospects are limited. 

There are so many poorly-trained horses out there who do not have good foundations on them already. Why not do the best job you can possibly do for Fly, by letting a GOOD professional educate both her and you? 

It is worth the time, the effort, the search, and the money - in every respect possible.


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## NavigatorsMom

I agree with Natisha, it seems like everyone is being quite hard on Hoofpic. As a green rider with a green horse, I think they are overall doing ok together. He clearly cares about her and her well being, even if he is a bit misguided or not quite sure of how to do things. They are both learning! I've read nothing on here that says to me that they're headed to a bad place, just that they are going at a slow pace and could possibly go faster under certain circumstances. But that is up to him.

And in regards to a comment a while back about how only riding once or twice a week in the winter would be detrimental to Fly, I see nothing wrong with that. Even with a green horse. Where I'm from it's quite common to let horses have a bit of time off in the winter, since show season is over and the weather gets gross (I can only imagine how awful it gets farther North!). At my farm yes, even green horses get time off in the winter. They are no worse for wear when spring comes, like every other horse they get a tune up and gradually come back into work. I can see how someone who is a very serious competitor might not be able to afford to take the winter off so drastically. But for someone like myself or Hoofpic who is mostly riding for fun, taking an easy winter is no big deal!


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## egrogan

I'm going to say selfishly, *I *have learned a ton about saddle fit from this thread, and am working my way through the links and resources posted here. My mare has changed shape significantly this year, and I think my saddle has become a bad fit for her right now. I was not trusting my eye when seeing what looks like atrophy behind her shoulders, but these links are confirming my fears. I did not like the interaction I had with the fitter last time he was out (I think he's knowledgeable with horses and tack but extremely condescending with women, and I'm not in the mood for dealing with people like that these days) so I need to get a new person out. So, thanks Horse Forum and all your wisdom- you've benefited at least one horse and rider with this advice!


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## 6gun Kid

StephaniHren said:


> Atoka's right. You sound very much like a "fair weather" owner—.


 See, this I don't agree with. He puts in the time, that is the only reason I am still here.


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## 6gun Kid

StephaniHren said:


> Atoka's right. You sound very much like a "fair weather" owner—.


 This, I do not agree with, he has always been willing to put in the time. That is why I am still here!


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## AtokaGhosthorse

I'm not so much thinking he's fair weather. I think he really cares and wants to do better but may have limited time or may not really understand the real world time commitments a horse requires. I genuinely believe this.

What I'm trying to get across is, I'm afraid eventually there will come a breaking point where someone gets hurt and/or he and Fly go to defcon 4 simply because both are so green, and when that happens, the horse usually gets the blame, gets promptly sold and another horse bought. The cycle then repeats.


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## 6gun Kid

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> What I'm trying to get across is, I'm afraid eventually there will come a breaking point where someone gets hurt and/or he and Fly go to defcon 4 simply because both are so green, and when that happens, the horse usually gets the blame, gets promptly sold and another horse bought. The cycle then repeats.


 there are a whole buncha folks on that page!


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## Whinnie

I do remember that Hoofpic spends a lot of time at the barn. He has flexible employment. I also remember when he asked his trainer about taking more than 1 lesson a week, he said he was told that he was doing so well, after only 4 lessons, that he only NEEDED 1 lesson a week. This was last Fall, I believe and he was riding a school horse. I found it hard to believe at the time that an instructor would discourage a beginner (or any rider) from taking as many lessons as he wanted.

The other part of the advice people are giving about sending Fly out to a more accomplished trainer, is that *he should also take regular lessons on a school* *horse *while Fly is away and learn what she is learning. She should not be confused after coming off 3 months training if Hoofpic is also coming off of 3 months training (and taking at least 3 lessons a week). They would both be learning basics. Hoofpic would learn what it feels like when a horse responds correctly, learn how to cue properly and learn better balance with more supervision.

I choose to spend money on lessons for myself rather than another piece of expensive equipment. No equipment makes you ride better, only lessons and lots of practice.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic will be the first person to say that he genuinely cares for his horse, is dedicated and wants the best for her. I agree with him whole- heartedly on every one of those points. I also agree with the statement that he doesn't know what he doesn't know. 

He will also be the first to admit that he learns differently from others. In my book, that's OK. It's also great that he can admit to that. But I think most of our responses are done to make him think- think for himself and really guide him to UNDERSTAND how and why things can happen or have happened a certain way. We give him tools, but he seems to not use them time and time again, which is frustrating. 

I absolutely agree that this is his journey, and his alone. He can go about it any which way he wants. But he has invited us in and asked for specific advise. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think anyone's replies have ever come from a place of malice. I honestly think they come from a genuine interest in his journey, and wanting to see him to grow in more ways than just horsemanship.

I have total confidence that @Hoofpic will find his way. And I think that him and his horse have the potential to have a good partnership. But I certainly don't want to see the guy end up in the ER, or unknowingly cause a problem with is horse.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoof pic, didn't your massage lady tell you that your saddle fit Fly when you first bought it? That should be a big warning that she's not a saddle fitter since now you've discovered that the saddle is too wide, which puts pressure on Fly's withers and will certainly cause serious damage if you continue to ride in it more often!


No that was someone else.



> without really making any constructive suggestions to improve your riding. !


And how would you know this? Are you there at iur lessons to hear everything from start to finish?

She has given lots of constructive criticism. And whats the big fuss that she talks alot in the lessons? I get it. You guys dont like it but it actually helps me.

!


> Did you even read the thread about the lady who just started riding? Compare where you are in your life with horses to where she is!


So now youre going to start comparing me to others on here?


----------



## egrogan

jenkat86 said:


> Hoofpic will be the first person to say that he genuinely cares for his horse, is dedicated and wants the best for her. I agree with him whole- heartedly on every one of those points. I also agree with the statement that he doesn't know what he doesn't know.
> 
> He will also be the first to admit that he learns differently from others. In my book, that's OK. It's also great that he can admit to that. But I think most of our responses are done to make him think- think for himself and really guide him to UNDERSTAND how and why things can happen or have happened a certain way. We give him tools, but he seems to not use them time and time again, which is frustrating.
> 
> I absolutely agree that this is his journey, and his alone. He can go about it any which way he wants. But he has invited us in and asked for specific advise. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think anyone's replies have ever come from a place of malice. I honestly think they come from a genuine interest in his journey, and wanting to see him to grow in more ways than just horsemanship.
> 
> I have total confidence that @*Hoofpic* will find his way. And I think that him and his horse have the potential to have a good partnership. But I certainly don't want to see the guy end up in the ER, or unknowingly cause a problem with is horse.


This is a great reflection @*jenkat86*! I really agree here. For a lot of us, we've become really invested in @*Hoofpic* 's progress and see he comes from a place of being really committed to this horse and her care. 

@*Hoofpic* , awhile ago, you said you felt like you had to defend your massage therapist. I think maybe that's because you state what she says, but then come on here and ask, "is that right?" "Do you think that's true?" etc. So when you come on and seem doubtful, people will jump in with their experiences and perceptions. And there will be lots of conflicting experiences and opinions. 

You'll have to be the one who decides what advice to take to heart, and what to read through/listen to and pass over. But if you're asking people to take the time to share their opinion, and then seeming to disregard it, that's where you'll see people frustrated.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I don't think Hoofpic is doing so bad. Sure he's green & bought a green horse but they both are going in baby steps, which is fine for what he wants.
> 
> Fly seems like an agreeable horse. I don't see where any glaring long term problems are occurring. When she turned for home he was able to stop her & continue on. Sure, most of us wouldn't have let her turn at all but sometimes things just happen. I've had some crazy rides where all I could do was ride the ride presented to me. My box of tools may be bigger than Hoofpics but he did pretty good with the knowledge he has.
> 
> I'd rather see someone on the 7 year training program than someone using a big bit & spurs & having a go at figuring things out.
> 
> To me Hoofpic does have some confidence issues but that can be overcome with exposure to different things & taking a few chances.
> 
> A full time trainer could work but to me the rider should know more than the horse & right now Hoofpic does. If Fly went to a trainer & came back with skills beyond Hoofpics level that could create a confused, resentful horse.
> 
> He is kind to his horse, is trying to learn, has no immediate goals, has plenty of time & is happy going slow so I give him a pass.


Thank you, well said. Thank you.

I am not claiming that I am perfect and that I am Mr. Know it all, I'm just taking things in stride. I am moving forward and i am learning from my mistakes.

I am getting a new saddle. I will have my trainer put more training on Fly this Winter. I get it, no one on here likes her, but I feel different. She has greatly benefited me in my learning as well as Fly. She was mentored by my BO and my BO is one of the few people locally that I rely on and trust when it comes to his knowledge.

I gaurentee that my riding wouldnt have progressed like it has over the past year if it wasnt for her. When I arrived at the barn in Sept 2015, my BO and trainer were both questioning on whether I would be able to ride Fly. Not at the moment, but ever.

I know you guys dont see it and think she is a terrible coach and that Im still a sloppy rider, but she would disagree. I get it, no one on here likes her.


----------



## StephaniHren

NavigatorsMom said:


> And in regards to a comment a while back about how only riding once or twice a week in the winter would be detrimental to Fly, I see nothing wrong with that.


To each their own, but I truly believe that giving a horse an entire season (so 2-3 months+) off should only be done in cases of injury, especially when it comes to green horses that are still improving. I get that you can just give them a tune up and bring them back into work in spring, but I also feel like getting stuck in that cycle isn't necessarily a positive thing. I'm not a serious competitor at all, I don't show anything besides a couple of schooling shows here and there, but I take my horse's training and his fitness seriously. I feel like it's a waste to spend months building up all of that musculature to let him get fat and complacent so that I have to do all of that conditioning work again when the good weather starts back up.



natisha said:


> A full time trainer could work but to me the rider should know more than the horse & right now Hoofpic does.


As for the idea that the rider should always know more than the horse they're on... if I agreed with that, wouldn't we be putting all of our brand new beginners on barely broke steeds? In a training situation, sure, the rider should know more than the horse, but I also don't think Hoofpic should necessarily be taking too much of the trainer role, considering his limited knowledge. Should he be reinforcing a trainer's work? Yes. Should he be the one solely training Fly? I lean towards no, that's a huge pair of shoes for a beginner rider to fill.



jenkat86 said:


> I absolutely agree that this is his journey, and his alone. He can go about it any which way he wants. But he has invited us in and asked for specific advise. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think anyone's replies have ever come from a place of malice. I honestly think they come from a genuine interest in his journey, and wanting to see him to grow in more ways than just horsemanship.


100% agreed. What can I say, I'm a lot like my horse; I have lots of opinions and sometimes I get really loud about them. :grin:


----------



## StephaniHren

I think what it comes down to is that I believe that what Mulefeather said about owing it to our horses to leave them better than we found them is one of the most important things we can keep in mind as owners. Slow progress is fine, but I'm worried that you'll own Fly for the next two/five/ten years, something terrible will happen and you'll have to sell her, and she'll get the short end of the deal because her knowledge isn't anywhere near where it should be.

On top of that, I've been the green rider with the green horse in the past and I remember how frustrating/soul crushing it is to have everyone else at the barn get to go out and do things together (trail rides, shows, etc.) while I was stuck riding circles in the arena because I couldn't trust my horse in new situations. You might be content with that, but I really do believe that some time with a trainer would give you guys a good leg up and make the whole situation a lot safer and more fun.

Anyways, I do think you should have your trainer put some work into her through the winter, if that's what you're comfortable with. It's not the route I would probably go (I would go full time training with a pro with weekly lessons on top of that), but if it's what works for you, that's great. I also steadfastly believe that you should be riding more than once or twice a week, too, and I like Whinnie's suggestion that you take lessons on a school horse as well as lessons on Fly.

And I want to add that Jenkat and Egrogan are right, it is frustrating when you ask for our advice and then disregard it, but that doesn't mean that I think you're a sloppy rider. I think you're inexperienced and not necessarily under the best of tutelage, but I do think you care about Fly (that's why we're all so avid about giving you advice, we want to see you succeed!). I just think you should take her training/your education a little more seriously and stop throwing out anything we have to say that you might not like.


----------



## Prairie

"And how would you know this? Are you there at iur lessons to hear everything from start to finish?

She has given lots of constructive criticism. And whats the big fuss that she talks alot in the lessons? I get it. You guys dont like it but it actually helps me."


You've posted enough videos of your lessons for us to know exactly what is going on. By constantly chattering, your teacher is distracting you and Fly from what you are doing and contributing nothing to your knowledge. 


I'm not comparing you to anyone else, but if you looked outside your small world and actually read what other beginners are doing, you'd notice that your trainer is not helping you progress. Unfortunately if for some reason Fly has to be rehomed, she's going to be the one paying the price for your narrow minded views of how limited your trainer is. Most of us responding on this thread have been around long enough, handled enough horses, worked with enough riders, and taken enough lessons to know how fast people, even those who are rank beginners, progress under a capable trainer-----you are far from progressing as you would if you'd take our advice. There are noticeable errors you are making while riding that a good trainer would have addressed by now.


----------



## Hoofpic

NavigatorsMom said:


> I agree with Natisha, it seems like everyone is being quite hard on Hoofpic. As a green rider with a green horse, I think they are overall doing ok together. He clearly cares about her and her well being, even if he is a bit misguided or not quite sure of how to do things. They are both learning! I've read nothing on here that says to me that they're headed to a bad place, just that they are going at a slow pace and could possibly go faster under certain circumstances. But that is up to him.
> 
> And in regards to a comment a while back about how only riding once or twice a week in the winter would be detrimental to Fly, I see nothing wrong with that. Even with a green horse. Where I'm from it's quite common to let horses have a bit of time off in the winter, since show season is over and the weather gets gross (I can only imagine how awful it gets farther North!). At my farm yes, even green horses get time off in the winter. They are no worse for wear when spring comes, like every other horse they get a tune up and gradually come back into work. I can see how someone who is a very serious competitor might not be able to afford to take the winter off so drastically. But for someone like myself or Hoofpic who is mostly riding for fun, taking an easy winter is no big deal!


Thank you. I can learn faster if I'm offered it, but like I said, this is my first horse and like just about everyone has told me there is no rush. 

Do I want to go faster? I wouldn't mind it, but also it's not hurting me by going at the pace I am right now. I don't think I'm going that slow. As long as things are moving forward and we are consistent, that's all that matters to me.

The reason why I said riding once or twice a week in Winters is a possibility is because it all depends on the type of winter we get this year and 1-2 times a week is pretty good for Canadian winters. We often go several weeks with weather so cold that people go months without riding. No one wants to ride in -30 weather and when we get it, it's here for weeks at a time, not days. 

When my ex and I were together, she went 4-5 months without riding her horses in the Winter because the weather was that bad.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I'm going to say selfishly, *I *have learned a ton about saddle fit from this thread, and am working my way through the links and resources posted here. My mare has changed shape significantly this year, and I think my saddle has become a bad fit for her right now. I was not trusting my eye when seeing what looks like atrophy behind her shoulders, but these links are confirming my fears. I did not like the interaction I had with the fitter last time he was out (I think he's knowledgeable with horses and tack but extremely condescending with women, and I'm not in the mood for dealing with people like that these days) so I need to get a new person out. So, thanks Horse Forum and all your wisdom-* you've benefited at least one horse and rider with this advice!*


And you don't think this advice is going to benefit Fly and I? I already said that I am buying a new saddle for her.


----------



## Hoofpic

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I'm not so much thinking he's fair weather. I think he really cares and wants to do better but may have limited time or *may not really understand the real world time commitments a horse requires.* I genuinely believe this.


Well I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed with your comment (which is fine, not everyone is going to feel the same way), because even before buying Fly, I was well aware what I was getting myself into. I had people (trust me, many people at the old barn) who asked me over and over if I was really into horses and if I was prepared to put in the time and I can tell you that I haven't disappointed a single one of them. I was well aware of the real world time commitments a horse requires before buying her and I'm even more aware today, a year and a half later. 



> What I'm trying to get across is, I'm afraid eventually there will come a breaking point where someone gets hurt and/or he and Fly go to defcon 4 simply because both are so green, and when that happens, the horse usually gets the blame, gets promptly sold and another horse bought. The cycle then repeats.


Well then I don't know what else to say, everyone has their own opinion. Yes I'm still green today but I can tell you that I was 10x greener 1.5 years ago than I was today and I've overcome some hurdles and made it this far.

I know my trainer and BO both believe in me, they have told me and showed me. You can go to my BO or trainer today and bring up my situation, yes they are both well aware than Fly and I are still very green, but they will say that we have made substantial progress since we arrived 13 months ago and things are heading in the right direction. If there was something really alarming between Fly and I, I can promise you that either of them would have brought it to my attention. And this is the BO we are talking about here, a man, former trainer of incredibly high expectations and high standards when it comes to horses. A man who everyone at the barn looks up to. There is absolutely no shadow of a doubt in my mind that when I first arrived there last year, both he and my trainer were skeptics of me and were very doubtful of me. But over time, I gained their trust and they saw that I was here to stay and that horses just wasn't a temporary interest for me, only to lose it months later.

Even though I left on bad terms, my previous helper at the previous barn and the trainer both saw just how commited I was, since I was doing just about all the barn chores there and spending much more time at the barn than I currently do at this barn. And I already consider myself someone who spends a lot of time at the barn Im at right now.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> This is a great reflection @*jenkat86*! I really agree here. For a lot of us, we've become really invested in @*Hoofpic* 's progress and see he comes from a place of being really committed to this horse and her care.
> 
> @*Hoofpic* , awhile ago, you said you felt like you had to defend your massage therapist. I think maybe that's because you state what she says, but then come on here and ask, "is that right?" "Do you think that's true?" etc. So when you come on and seem doubtful, people will jump in with their experiences and perceptions. And there will be lots of conflicting experiences and opinions.
> 
> You'll have to be the one who decides what advice to take to heart, and what to read through/listen to and pass over. But if you're asking people to take the time to share their opinion, and then seeming to disregard it, that's where you'll see people frustrated.


When I was posting what my massage lady said yesterday, I wasn't asking if she was right or not. I didn't doubt her, if I did, I wouldn't have had her out. 

I was just sharing what she said and posted it as a followup for you guys. She didn't tell me what I should and should not do with the saddle, she just said it was up to me, but if it was her, she would do this. But again, its up to me, so she wasn't telling me to NOT buy a saddle right now and that I must wait until the Spring, she just suggested it as an open idea. I took her words and her thoughts as an expressive opinion, not as fact. But I can gaurentee you that the second she told me that the fork around the tree was too wide, I IMMEDIATELY without any hesistation what so ever, said to myself that I am buying a new saddle. It wasn't even a question at this point. 

She's not a saddle fitter and she even admitted to it. She doesn't call herself as a saddle fitter, she is an equine massage therapist, but she does have knowledge on saddles and fitting them, just not to the extent of a "saddle fitter" who makes their own saddles etc. 

I appreciate for her taking the extra time to help me on this (and she didn't even charge me for the extra 45mins that I took from her), and provided me with insight, her thoughts and she reconized that the fork around the tree was too wide.


----------



## Prairie

So what is this great progress you claim over where you were? You've even admitted that you aren't in balance with your horse----until you can balance, you've stagnated at the very beginning of the learning curve.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> So what is this great progress you claim over where you were? You've even admitted that you aren't in balance with your horse----until you can balance, you've stagnated at the very beginning of the learning curve.


The most important thing is that im getting there and as I get my core stronger it will help even more.


----------



## bsms

Don't know if you have seen this guy's stuff:











https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU7PYYaPkTOE2D5kF7OxdRA/videos


----------



## StephaniHren

Prairie said:


> Most of us responding on this thread have been around long enough, handled enough horses, worked with enough riders, and taken enough lessons to know how fast people, even those who are rank beginners, progress under a capable trainer-----you are far from progressing as you would if you'd take our advice.





Hoofpic said:


> Do I want to go faster? I wouldn't mind it, but also it's not hurting me by going at the pace I am right now. I don't think I'm going that slow.


After a year and a half, you can't take your horse out on a hack around the farm without encountering problems you don't know how to address correctly, you still don't feel like you're really in balance with your horse, and you still consider yourself to be a green rider. Heck, you just rode your first spook on Fly a couple of weeks ago!

I don't doubt that you've made progress, and I think you have a right to be proud of that progress, what with the green on green circumstances, but you should both be leaps and bounds ahead of where you are now. I guess I just can't understand why you'd be okay with being only two steps away from where you were a year and a half ago compared to the twenty steps that everyone else takes in a similar amount of time.

You're a lot more patient than me, I'll say that.


----------



## GMA100

StephaniHren said:


> After a year and a half, you can't take your horse out on a hack around the farm without encountering problems you don't know how to address correctly, you still don't feel like you're really in balance with your horse, and you still consider yourself to be a green rider. Heck, you just rode your first spook on Fly a couple of weeks ago!
> 
> I don't doubt that you've made progress, and I think you have a right to be proud of that progress, what with the green on green circumstances, but you should both be leaps and bounds ahead of where you are now. I guess I just can't understand why you'd be okay with being only two steps away from where you were a year and a half ago compared to the twenty steps that everyone else takes in a similar amount of time.
> 
> You're a lot more patient than me, I'll say that.



But it not wrong he is more patient! Some people just do things differently! I think that Hoofpick can learn at whatever pace he wants to. Just remember when YOU were green. its all right to give your opinion critically, but it should never be all right to pick on someone who does things differently than you.


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## Rainaisabelle

I don't think anyone has picked on hoofpic but if you ask for people's opinions don't cry about the pick you get. Some people on here who haven't been here from the start need to go read all the threads from the beginning.


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## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> But it not wrong he is more patient! Some people just do things differently! I think that Hoofpick can learn at whatever pace he wants to. Just remember when YOU were green. its all right to give your opinion critically, but it should never be all right to pick on someone who does things differently than you.


Thank you


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

Totally agree with you, @Rainaisabelle. While they go back and read @Hoofpic's thread(s) from the beginning, I feel like we need to move on. 

This is @Hoofpic's journal, and his journey.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> After a year and a half, you can't take your horse out on a hack around the farm without encountering problems you don't know how to address correctly,


And what is wrong with that? It's only happened twice and we have had far more rides outside where there was no problems than ones with. It's all a learning experience for me, at least I am making the corrections for the next time it happens. 



> you still don't feel like you're really in balance with your horse, and you still consider yourself to be a green rider.


What's wrong with considering myself as a green rider? I will be green for the next few years at least and I don't care. As long as my knowledge keeps progressing that's all that matters. 

The only reason why I said that I wasn't in balance was because the massage lady brought it up and asked me. She asked if she felt i was balanced and that she felt I was riding a bit more towards the left because of the mild tight muscles on Fly's right back. Which she said was normal for riders to tend to lean more towards one side when riding without them knowing. That's just how we are born, we all tend to favour one side a bit more. Stand on a weight scale and we all tend to have one foot that we put a bit more weight into.



> Heck, you just rode your first spook on Fly a couple of weeks ago!


That was the second or third spook outside, probably 4th or 5th altogether, the first one happened a few months ago. And again, so what? Fly spooked at the mini donkeys, she tried to take off with me on her, I immediately pulled back on the reins and she immediately slowed and came to a stop within 5ft. My BO saw and told me to keep the hands down and ever since he has told me that, I have made sure that I have done that every single time moving forward. 



> I don't doubt that you've made progress, and I think you have a right to be proud of that progress, what with the green on green circumstances, but you should both be leaps and bounds ahead of where you are now. I guess I just can't understand why you'd be okay with being only two steps away from where you were a year and a half ago compared to the twenty steps that everyone else takes in a similar amount of time.
> 
> You're a lot more patient than me, I'll say that.


Well then if you feel that I have only made two steps from where I was a year and a half ago, then that's your opinion. You can ask my BO, trainer and boarders at the barn and they will think different. I think you have to remember, that I wasn't riding from day one, I was riding from October 2015 for once a week for a month, then I went 4.5 months without riding, then I resumed back in March once a week and got on Fly in May.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> Totally agree with you, @Rainaisabelle. While they go back and read @Hoofpic's thread(s) from the beginning, I feel like we need to move on.
> 
> This is @Hoofpic's journal, and his journey.


This may come off as rude but so be it. This is his journey that's fine no one has disputed that fact but go and read others threads you won't find much conflict in those compared to here. It gets extremely frustrating when you give advice only for it to be ignored or flat out denied each time.


----------



## gottatrot

Hey, I've been around some serious pro trainers and I hate to say it but there were at least several who did not know more than the most basic concepts of saddle fit. Learning about saddle fit requires a lot of research. And many trainers who turn out horses only ride the horses for a month or two. Unless the saddle fit is horrendous, you often won't see problems in that amount of time. There are trainers who use one or two basic saddles on all the horses they ride. So I believe you can have different skill sets, and some people might be great trainers but can't tell you if a horse has a club hoof. Or be able to diagnose lameness well. Yet they could teach your horse to do a winning routine in the show pen. 

Horses, like humans can stay fit with only a couple workout sessions a week. I know endurance riders who only condition their horses once a week and then go out and ride them 50 miles and complete with the horse in good condition. If Hoofpic was doing extremely strenuous workouts with his horse such as gaming or extensive galloping, I'd suggest that if he laid the horse off a month he got her back into work gradually. But he's not going to injure his horse even if he takes a week or two off in the worst weather and then rides her again. 

Nothing I've seen so far from Fly makes me think she would be difficult to rehome should something happen to Hoofpic. I personally dislike that many people say you should train your horse to do things you personally don't care about "in case something ever happened to you." If you treat your horses kindly, they'll see humans in a good light and will easily learn whatever the next person wants to teach them. The only thing I believe we need to feel responsible about training our horses to do is be polite and open to learning. We don't have to feel obligated to teach our horses to sidepass beautifully or excel in some discipline in case anyone ever wants to do more than trail ride them should we end up in a vegetative state. "Better hurry and train that horse, what if you were in a car accident tomorrow?" Seriously? I find that line of thinking ludicrous.


----------



## Prairie

The issue is that you are not progressing like you should and Fly's training is lacking because you are so green. If you were serious about making this green + green work, you'd seriously be looking for a good trainer to start Fly correctly and take her to at least the point where she's comfortable being ridden outside and has correct responses to many basic cues. At the same time you'd be taking lesson from a good instructor on a schoolmaster so you learn what correct feels, learn to use your body correct to cue a horse, and discover that your hands are not the brakes or the steering. 


Truthfully, in the time you've spent riding Fly, my youngest granddaughter, age 6 and just turned 7, has far exceeded your horse riding skills simply because she's riding that been there, done that mare who can teach her and calmly accepts her novice errors. The fact is that until you can ride balanced, you will never progress as a rider and Fly will suffer because you are affecting her physically---it doesn't matter how many chiro adjustments or massages you get for her, she will be hurting because you were too stubborn to recognize that green + green is a horrible combination!


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic, may I suggest that this be your journal, and if you have a question, you make a thread in the appropriate section of the HF? 

And, edit your writing so that you not make statements that contain "I Know...", because in the past, those statements have mostly been debunked, and tend to cause arguments.

I do not think there is anything wrong with the PACE at which you are progressing, as I am the Queen of the " Slow Training Club".


----------



## GMA100

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, may I suggest that this be your journal, and if you have a question, you make a thread in the appropriate section of the HF?
> 
> And, edit your writing so that you not make statements that contain "I Know...", because in the past, those statements have mostly been debunked, and tend to cause arguments.
> 
> I do not think there is anything wrong with the PACE at which you are progressing, as I am the Queen of the " Slow Training Club".


I agree with every word @greentree just said.
I personally like going slow too. I am a total mood person, I only ride when I feel like it.
But I think you should take your questions somewhere other than you journal.


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

Rainaisabelle said:


> This may come off as rude but so be it. This is his journey that's fine no one has disputed that fact but go and read others threads you won't find much conflict in those compared to here. It gets extremely frustrating when you give advice only for it to be ignored or flat out denied each time.


Don't worry, at least to me, your comment doesn't come across as rude. I definitely have noticed the increased conflict on this thread compared to others on the forum, and I have also given advice that has been ignored or denied on here, so I understood where you're coming from.


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## jenkat86

I think the reason he doesn't take his questions to separate threads is because they continued to get closed...

I will say though, having everything in one journal doesn't allow the topic to get as much exposure on the forum. If specific training/saddle/health/whatever questions were put in a separate thread, the likelihood of more people answering would increase.

Say what you want, but @Hoofpic...you are a popular one on HF!


----------



## 6gun Kid

I realize that I am blunt. But, I mean absolutely no disrespect to @Hoofpic, However, he comes here and he asks for advice so I am going to give it. Unfiltered, unvarnished, and straight. I _want_ him to succeed, and I want his horse to succeed, I just don't feel like he is in a situation where that is possible. I respect the heck out of his loyalty to his BO and trainer, loyalty is far to rare these days, but I don't feel like they are helping him progress. There is nothing wrong with taking the time to train the horse, but he should be getting better training at the same time. I have a 9 year old, who started riding just several months ago, who is far beyond where his trainer has gotten him in a year and a half.
Back in the dark ages, when I was first learning to rope, I got some great advice. An old cowboy (from Alberta, oddly enough), told me you can't teach a horse to rope, while you are learning to rope. I think this applies to all disciplines of riding.


----------



## Whinnie

One more try at someone training Fly and you taking lessons on a lesson horse.

*If you trust your trainer, you still need to both understand what she intends to work on with Fly and how much she is going to ride. That should be in a written contract.* If it were me, I would expect, 60 actual days of riding for a horse at the stage of Fly to learn to walk, trot and canter on cue EACH time asked (properly). I would expect her to stop EACH time when asked (properly). I would expect her to turn both ways without having to pull her around (if direct reining) or to have a decent neck rein on her if that is the way you are going to go. All basic stuff for a horse that has been ridden as much as Fly at this point.

During that 60 days, you would take lessons to learn how to apply each cue (ask) properly and how the horse feels when responding properly. The school horse would be teaching you proper balance because you would not be concentrating so much on correction of the horse, but working on your own equitation. For the first month, you would not ride Fly, then after that you could take a lesson a week n her (with the trainer's approval).

I would expect the trainer to ride Fly AT LEAST 4 times a week for AT LEAST an hour each time. Fly knows enough now to be able to have a longer training session that works on a variety of things. She is generally cooperative, she just needs lots of practice under an experienced hand to make her solid. You need lots of practice on a school horse under supervision to make you solid.

It does not matter if, at this point, all training for Fly is indoors. When she is solid with these very basic things indoors, she will be ready to transfer to responding properly outdoors.

In the meantime, getting a saddle that fits properly will have to be a priority before Fly is ridden much.

This is exactly the program I used when I bought a young mare that had been raced (that is all she knew) and I was green myself, not having had any lessons ever. I had been on horses for a few years and had confidence, but knew nothing and luckily had never been hurt. This mare I had was NOT quiet and cooperative like Fly, she was very dominant and tested me all the time. The lessons I took on the school horse taught me how to handle my mare much better. After the 90 days training I took over and was a much better rider for it. I was able, sometime down the road, to train her for low level Dressage and Hunter classes (including over fences) because of the basic training we both got under experienced supervision.

If you are going to use your present trainer, you will not have to pay additional board, just her time, which will be cost effective. A horse that is solid in the basics isn't really a finished horse (well, unless that is all you want), but IS a horse that can be trusted to ride anywhere and can advance in training if desired.

* 60 days of actual riding is based on 3 months @ 5 rides a week. Too much time between rides slows down progress.


----------



## Whinnie

6gun Kid said:


> Back in the dark ages, when I was first learning to rope, I got some great advice. An old cowboy (from Alberta, oddly enough), told me you can't teach a horse to rope, while you are learning to rope. I think this applies to all disciplines of riding.


I really like that!


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> This may come off as rude but so be it. This is his journey that's fine no one has disputed that fact but go and read others threads you won't find much conflict in those compared to here. It gets extremely frustrating when you give advice only for it to be ignored or flat out denied each time.


For the record I am not ignoring advice. I want to use my own trainer right now to put more training on Fly during the Winter, I don't see why that is so bad. I know everyone here think that she is a terrible trainer, I get it. But I like how she teaches and what I've gotten from her so far. I have full confidence in her and I'm not going to give up on her just like that.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Hey, I've been around some serious pro trainers and I hate to say it but there were at least several who did not know more than the most basic concepts of saddle fit. Learning about saddle fit requires a lot of research. And many trainers who turn out horses only ride the horses for a month or two. Unless the saddle fit is horrendous, you often won't see problems in that amount of time. There are trainers who use one or two basic saddles on all the horses they ride. So I believe you can have different skill sets, and some people might be great trainers but can't tell you if a horse has a club hoof. Or be able to diagnose lameness well. Yet they could teach your horse to do a winning routine in the show pen.


I agree and every trainer will have their strengths and weaknesses. My trainer admits to not being the person to go to for saddle fitting. And you know what? I'm probably the worst person in the world to rely on expressing the most correct description because I am not a very good writer so a lot of times when I write, it could be off and give off the wrong message. You all know this by now and it sucks, I wish I could be a better writer in telling my thoughts and saying exactly what I am trying to say. I haven't even talked to her very much about saddle fitting so I don't even know 100% what her thoughts are on it. I'm just describing what I've seen and observed so far from knowing her. 



> Nothing I've seen so far from Fly makes me think she would be difficult to rehome should something happen to Hoofpic. I personally dislike that many people say you should train your horse to do things you personally don't care about "in case something ever happened to you." If you treat your horses kindly, they'll see humans in a good light and will easily learn whatever the next person wants to teach them. The only thing I believe we need to feel responsible about training our horses to do is be polite and open to learning. We don't have to feel obligated to teach our horses to sidepass beautifully or excel in some discipline in case anyone ever wants to do more than trail ride them should we end up in a vegetative state. "Better hurry and train that horse, what if you were in a car accident tomorrow?" Seriously? I find that line of thinking ludicrous.


I agree and I will have Fly exposed to those many outdoor things with my trainer riding her. I know that she really wants me to ride her (more so than her) because she said that it's ultimately comes down to me riding Fly. But she will put more training on Fly if I request it. This is why she was so persistant on getting me to start riding Fly this past Spring.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I agree and I will have Fly exposed to those many outdoor things with my trainer riding her. I know that she really wants me to ride her (more so than her) because she said that it's ultimately comes down to me riding Fly. But she will put more training on Fly if I request it. This is why she was so persistant on getting me to start riding Fly this past Spring.


See, this is what doesn't make sense to me. If she is a trainer, she would not be urging a green rider to ride a green horse. No responsible trainer would. She would have wanted to put miles/hours/experience on Fly herself while you learned to ride a broke, trained horse. That is why someone said it seems she is a riding instructor and not a trainer of horses.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> For the record I am not ignoring advice. I want to use my own trainer right now to put more training on Fly during the Winter, I don't see why that is so bad. I know everyone here think that she is a terrible trainer, I get it. But I like how she teaches and what I've gotten from her so far. I have full confidence in her and I'm not going to give up on her just like that.


What is your goal? I know you say you want her to put more training on Fly, but what kind of training? 

For example, when I sent my mare to the trainer back in January, my goal was to get her in shape, physically. This included her dropping weight and getting her conditioned so that we could transition into riding her with more contact and remind her how to use her body again. So my trainer and I agreed that we would start with 30 days. He eased her into a different diet, and slowly started her into work. We reevaluated half way through, and I liked the progress they were making, so we continued. After the 30 days, I decided that I wanted to move right into the next thing, and we set out a new list of goals and started working towards them. 

If you want to use your trainer, then that's fine, but make sure you set yourself and Fly up for success. Don't just tell her, "Here, put more training on Fly this winter." Because then you won't know what you're supposed to have at the end. 

Take it in stages. 

So start with stage one: What is the time-frame for "this winter." When is the start date and the end date?


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## StephaniHren

GMA100 said:


> its all right to give your opinion critically, but it should never be all right to pick on someone who does things differently than you.


I don't feel like we've been picking on Hoofpic. I'm with 6gun on this one: I know I'm blunt, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I am going to give him my straight opinion. My straight opinion is that he's not progressing like he should be, and that his trainer could be a contributing factor to his and Fly's slow progress.



gottatrot said:


> Horses, like humans can stay fit with only a couple workout sessions a week.


This is fair and I recognize that I probably have higher than normal standards for my horse's physical fitness. He's probably more in shape than he needs to be (not that having more muscle's a bad thing). I'll be the first to admit that I keep him _very_ active, and that unless you're competing at a very high level, you probably don't need to be riding six days a week. But I will say that I think more ride time is beneficial for Fly's training, and that it seems like a waste to not progress over the winter.



gottatrot said:


> I personally dislike that many people say you should train your horse to do things you personally don't care about "in case something ever happened to you."


I don't feel like I'm training my horse to do things I don't care about. In fact, I _only_ train him to do things I care about. And at the point that Fly's at, the things she should be learning aren't things that Hoofpic doesn't care about, they're basics that every horse should know no matter which discipline you're pursuing (even if you're just a casual trail rider).


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> What's wrong with considering myself as a green rider? I will be green for the next few years at least and I don't care. As long as my knowledge keeps progressing that's all that matters.


If you're happy with the progress you're making, then that's your right. You already know my feelings on your rate of progress (and Fly's progress, too, since she's an extension of you). That's the last I'm going to say about that! :smile:



jenkat86 said:


> What is your goal? I know you say you want her to put more training on Fly, but what kind of training?


I want to speak on this, though. I think it's really important that when you put Fly into training with your trainer, you have clear expectations of how much riding you expect her to be doing and what your goals are for the winter. When I put my horse into training, I have goals every month for what I want him to improve (example: this month I wanted him to have his turn on the haunch/forehand and I wanted improvements on his ability to pick up the correct lead/his canter transitions—all things that have been accomplished) and I share those goals with my trainer so that she knows what I'm expecting her to work on. I also get to come watch training sessions, too (which is a great learning experience).

I like Whinnie's idea of things to work on: walk/trot/canter cues, stopping, turning, etc. The basics. Plus exposure to things outside, the fundamental idea of moving away from pressure, maybe some ground manners (if necessary), etc. And weekly lessons on Fly with your trainer so that you can learn the things she's working on, too!

I'm also still a huge proponent for you taking lessons on a schoolmaster type horse, too.



greentree said:


> Hoofpic, may I suggest that this be your journal, and if you have a question, you make a thread in the appropriate section of the HF?


This is a good suggestion. There's been a lot of arguing about personal opinions on here and not many updates on how you and Fly are doing. Have you had another ride on her since your last update?


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## tinyliny

StephaniHren said:


> If you're happy with the progress you're making, then that's your right. You already know my feelings on your rate of progress (and Fly's progress, too, since she's an extension of you). That's the last I'm going to say about that! :smile:
> 
> 
> I want to speak on this, though. I think it's really important that when you put Fly into training with your trainer, you have clear expectations of how much riding you expect her to be doing and what your goals are for the winter. *When I put my horse into training, I have goals every month for what I want him to improve (example: this month I wanted him to have his turn on the haunch/forehand and I wanted improvements on his ability to pick up the correct lead/his canter transitions—all things that have been accomplished) and I share those goals with my trainer so that she knows what I'm expecting her to work on*. I also get to come watch training sessions, too (which is a great learning experience).
> 
> I like Whinnie's idea of things to work on: walk/trot/canter cues, stopping, turning, etc. The basics. Plus exposure to things outside, the fundamental idea of moving away from pressure, maybe some ground manners (if necessary), etc. And weekly lessons on Fly with your trainer so that you can learn the things she's working on, too!
> 
> I'm also still a huge proponent for you taking lessons on a schoolmaster type horse, too.
> 
> 
> This is a good suggestion. There's been a lot of arguing about personal opinions on here and not many updates on how you and Fly are doing. Have you had another ride on her since your last update?



that's interesting. I think if I were to put my horse into the care of a trainer it would be becuase I could not do what needed to be done, or, more likely, there were problems, I had tried a lot of things, yet could not figure out what was really needed. in that case, I would want the more experienced eye of the trainer, and would not be giving them any demands or requirements because I have exhausted MY ideas and want them to use THEIRS to figure out what my horse really needs.


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## bsms

Whinnie said:


> See, this is what doesn't make sense to me. If she is a trainer, she would not be urging a green rider to ride a green horse. No responsible trainer would. She would have wanted to put miles/hours/experience on Fly herself...


Very green horse, very green rider, with two greenies whispering between ourselves in the background:










Like the song says, Some days are diamonds, some days are coal...​ 







​
The trainer who broke the mare had no problems with my very green (and young) daughter riding her. The horse didn't mind either. Neither developed bad habits. When we decided to sell the purebred Arabian mare due to conflicts between her and another horse, the trainer had no problem recommending the horse, and the horse has now been with the new owner for 6 years - and no problems. The trainer did NOT want to put miles on the horse herself!

When I wanted the same trainer to work with Mia, she had an 8 month waiting list - so I guess people liked the results she got. The trainer spent 4 months working with Mia, then turned her back to me to ride her out. And that did mean "out". We learned together. One doesn't learn to ride a nervous horse without riding a nervous horse.

I can't imagine a local trainer telling someone, "_Pay me to ride your horse for another 6 months._.." Not unless it was for a specific show or competition goal. "_Pay me to ride your horse until the horse is totally seasoned on the trail_" would go over like a turd in a punch bowl around here.

Green + Green may or may not work. It depends on the horse, the rider, the goals and the environment.


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## Whinnie

bsms said:


> Very green horse, very green rider, with two greenies whispering between ourselves in the background:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like the song says, Some days are diamonds, some days are coal...​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The trainer who broke the mare had no problems with my very green (and young) daughter riding her. The horse didn't mind either. Neither developed bad habits. When we decided to sell the purebred Arabian mare due to conflicts between her and another horse, the trainer had no problem recommending the horse, and the horse has now been with the new owner for 6 years - and no problems. The trainer did NOT want to put miles on the horse herself!
> 
> When I wanted the same trainer to work with Mia, she had an 8 month waiting list - so I guess people liked the results she got. The trainer spent 4 months working with Mia, then turned her back to me to ride her out. And that did mean "out". We learned together. One doesn't learn to ride a nervous horse without riding a nervous horse.
> 
> I can't imagine a local trainer telling someone, "_Pay me to ride your horse for another 6 months._.." Not unless it was for a specific show or competition goal. "_Pay me to ride your horse until the horse is totally seasoned on the trail_" would go over like a turd in a punch bowl around here.
> 
> Green + Green may or may not work. It depends on the horse, the rider, the goals and the environment.


Hoofpic has been working on his horse for over a year. And riding for least 5 months. Given his posts, the things that have happened (like hauling back on the reins to get her to stop) and the questions he asks, my opinion is that it could be working much better for both of them with a professional putting hours/miles on Fly and Hoofpic learning basic riding on a school horse. What is wrong with doing it better (and probably more safely) instead of just getting by?


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## Prairie

"The trainer who broke the mare had no problems with my very green (and young) daughter riding her."


That 's totally different than a greenie trying to train a green horse! At least you had a trainer working with the mare before your green daughter rode her. 


Some horses are very tolerant of rider error even when they're green, but some aren't and it's all to easy to undo the training. My grandkids have a well bred paint whose training is exceptional on cattle, yet she has the patience of a saint with her younger green riders. However as the kids get better, that old mare demands more out of them and won't try to figure out a poorly executed cue. Now the very talented mare I ride would have a complete meltdown if I put a green kid on her---she loves kids but with her history of abuse, if one of them got too rough, it would trigger memories of her horrible past. 


However, if one considers that most horses have more than one home in their lives and are often sold as the rider loses interest or needs a more talented mount, whenever you are dealing with a green horse, you have to consider what future that horse may have and if she'll land softly. Too many well trained, well bred horses are out there now for the number of available homes---what chance does a poorly broke, grade mare have? Whenyou buy a horse, you become responsible for that horse's well being while you own her, but you are also responsible for ensuring that she has the training and experience that she will be marketable and land softly if you have to rehome her.


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## bsms

Whinnie said:


> ...What is wrong with doing it better (and probably more safely) instead of just getting by?


Because he cannot get better by having a pro do things for him. You don't learn how to recognize a horse is about to spook, or how to respond, by riding a steady school horse. You don't learn how to handle a horse who doesn't stand still while mounting, or how to handle a horse who wants to go home when you don't want him to, without experiencing it. You don't learn about saddle fit without putting your OWN hand under the saddle, and feeling for yourself what happens when the horse walks.

Nor am I recommending Hoofpic settle for just getting by. I've recommended book and websites for him to read. I've shared some videos I like. I hope he continues to work with a trainer and to take lessons. I just think some of that progress needs to come from riding Fly.

I also don't think riding horses is quite as demanding as folks make it out to be. I compare it to what a professional guitarist told me about guitars: "_You can learn enough to strum a few chords and have fun in 30 minutes, and no one will ever live long enough to master it_."

If I thought Fly was like my first horse, I'd recommend he sell Fly and get an easier one. I learned some bad, defensive habits. 

But Fly doesn't sound like a fire-breathing dragon, and I've seen a number of horses who were ruined by experienced riders. Cowboy came here as an ex-lesson horse, and he was pretty sour. The first day, he tried repeated bolting to scare his rider off. And spinning. And bucking, to the extent a 13.0 hand pony can buck.

Turned out there was a darn good, level headed pony lurking underneath. When my wife took up riding regularly in June, he's the horse I trusted her to be with. If I had to trust one horse with my life in the desert, it would be Cowboy. He's taught my wife a lot, but he was a FREE lesson horse for a reason.

Trooper had been loaned to a ranch, where a professional cowboy spurred him bloody. It took a pro 5 weeks to teach him not to melt down at the sight of a cowboy hat. He became our Steady Eddie - but for some years he was the only horse who had tried to throw me. And you can still get him tense if you put your heels on his scars...and take a look at his withers! I doubt Hoofpic will do THAT to Fly!








​
Folks here are giving Hoofpic grief and saying he'll make Fly incapable of being sold. But not only was Cowboy free, they threw in his tack and included free delivery - because no one wanted him. And that, after a couple of years as a lesson horse - supervised by a professional with over 40 years of riding and competing!

"_If you treat your horses kindly, they'll see humans in a good light and will easily learn whatever the next person wants to teach them. The only thing I believe we need to feel responsible about training our horses to do is be polite and open to learning._"- @*gottatrot* 

I agree. I can't promise Hoofpic won't get hurt riding Fly. I can't promise anyone they can be around any horse and not get hurt. But if Hoofpic, the trainer and the BO are content with Hoofpic riding Fly, then who am I to tell him no? I guess Im missing the signs that Fly is a dangerous horse. Sounds like a normal one to me.

That doesn't make you wrong for making your suggestion. You may be right. But I firmly believe a responsible trainer, watching a particular horse and rider, can reasonable say Green + Green = OK for Some Riding. Including simple trails. I've done the Green + Green thing unsafely, and I've seen it done safely. It depends.


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## Prairie

Sorry, but it still comes down to you have to be able to walk before you can run! Until a rider has learned balance, how to properly execute cues using the natural aids of leg, seat, weight, and core, has refined their hands to using the reins to refine the lines of communication without jerking on the horses mouth, and understands how to read a horse, riding a green horse is just looking for a wreck in too many cases. By learning first on a schoolmaster, and then moving up the more difficult horses over time, finally advancing to being able to at least put basic training on a horse, we develop as equestrians. The issue with Green + Green is that neither the horse or the rider have a clue about what they should be doing! You have to build on skills at each step, not suddenly jump into the murky water of equines with both feet when you've never experienced getting your feet wet first.


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## StephaniHren

tinyliny said:


> that's interesting. I think if I were to put my horse into the care of a trainer it would be becuase I could not do what needed to be done, or, more likely, there were problems, I had tried a lot of things, yet could not figure out what was really needed. in that case, I would want the more experienced eye of the trainer, and would not be giving them any demands or requirements because I have exhausted MY ideas and want them to use THEIRS to figure out what my horse really needs.


I never thought about it like that! Since I only have him in part time training (and since, like Hoofpic, my trainer is also my instructor and I board at the location she works out of), his training is more of a collaboration between myself and my trainer. I have twice weekly lessons with her, so we review where he's at and what she's working on with him (and what I feel like my priorities are for him) every week. It's never demands, always a discussion—and I always defer to my trainer because part of her job is to teach me the sort of "hierarchy" of training a horse.

I have a good sense of what he should be learning next and how to communicate about new things with him, but some things that he needs to learn I just don't have the same timing/feel for that my trainer has (teaching him how to do turns on the haunch/forehand are a good example, I just couldn't "speak" the right things quickly enough to him, so he would just get more and more confused—plus he liked to be stubborn and lock up, just refuse to listen to anything altogether). Could I teach him those things? Yes, but not nearly as quickly as my trainer can. He's got the basics of the turns on the haunch/forehand down now, to the point where my trainer has moved on to other things while I put practice/polish on those.

The way I see it, I'm confident and experienced enough (and he's good-natured enough) that my trainer is more of a (high-powered) arrow in my quiver, not the end all be all of his training regimen. Plus she's teaching me a _huge_ amount about how a green horse's training should progress.

He doesn't really _need_ to be in training, since we're doing well together, but I like the supplemental education for him.

EDIT: I'll probably actually give him November off from training and then put him back in for some more work in December. I honestly don't believe there's such a thing as too much training for a horse, there's always something they can be improving.


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## bsms

Sorry, Prairie, but we disagree. I don't think it is nearly that hard to do basic riding with basic, non-abusive control. You have a right to your opinion, and you have defended it reasonably. I've explained my view. I've watched Green + Green work fine. I've seen the results of Experienced + Experienced, and I'm underwhelmed by what experienced riders regularly do to their horses.

But you may be right. I've certainly been wrong before, both about life and horses. So Hoofpic will have to think about it from his perspective, and I'll leave his thread for a while so as not to derail it.


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## Prairie

What StephaniHren is doing is actually how many trainers want his relationship with horse and owner to be. The trainer teaches the horse, then has the owner ride the horse so he can teach both of them and see what he as a trainer needs to work on. Thus the owner is still participating in the training but the responsibility of teaching the individual steps of each cue and putting it all together is up to the trainer who works with both the horse and rider. 


The issue in Hoofpic's situation is that the trainer, even assuming she has the ability to train a horse and is not just an instructor, is not doing any of the training on Fly. Thus the only cues Fly knows will be whatever she picks up from a green rider which may not be correct in the general scheme of riding. Asimmple example is "whoa"......a novice or someone who'snot been trained to ride with their body pulls back on the reins to stop the horse, yet a rider who's gone beyond the basics understands that "whoa" comes from correctly using your body, not your hands, to cue the horse to stop, in this case the rider simply stops riding, ie, moving with the horse.


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## Greenmeadows

Fly does not try to buck every time Hoofpic rides, she is not a regular biter, doesn't kick or rear. In other words, she's not a "killer" . I have known of beginners who get a decent horse, then let it develop those dangerous habits. I still don't see that with Hoofpic. Who cares if he takes longer than other people to train? Again, I've seen a lot worse. He's not one of those people who buys a horse just to say he has one, then puts it out to pasture for the rest of its life. The horses that are treated like that are definitely going to have a tough time finding a home if something happens to the owner. And like others have stated, this Hoofpic's journal, and it is his choice if he wants to act on advice given here.


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## Whinnie

bsms said:


> Because he cannot get better by having a pro do things for him. You don't learn how to recognize a horse is about to spook, or how to respond, by riding a steady school horse. You don't learn how to handle a horse who doesn't stand still while mounting, or how to handle a horse who wants to go home when you don't want him to, without experiencing it. You don't learn about saddle fit without putting your OWN hand under the saddle, and feeling for yourself what happens when the horse walks.
> 
> Nor am I recommending Hoofpic settle for just getting by. I've recommended book and websites for him to read. I've shared some videos I like. I hope he continues to work with a trainer and to take lessons. I just think some of that progress needs to come from riding Fly.
> 
> I also don't think riding horses is quite as demanding as folks make it out to be. I compare it to what a professional guitarist told me about guitars: "_You can learn enough to strum a few chords and have fun in 30 minutes, and no one will ever live long enough to master it_."
> 
> If I thought Fly was like my first horse, I'd recommend he sell Fly and get an easier one. I learned some bad, defensive habits.
> 
> But Fly doesn't sound like a fire-breathing dragon, and I've seen a number of horses who were ruined by experienced riders. Cowboy came here as an ex-lesson horse, and he was pretty sour. The first day, he tried repeated bolting to scare his rider off. And spinning. And bucking, to the extent a 13.0 hand pony can buck.
> 
> Turned out there was a darn good, level headed pony lurking underneath. When my wife took up riding regularly in June, he's the horse I trusted her to be with. If I had to trust one horse with my life in the desert, it would be Cowboy. He's taught my wife a lot, but he was a FREE lesson horse for a reason.
> 
> Trooper had been loaned to a ranch, where a professional cowboy spurred him bloody. It took a pro 5 weeks to teach him not to melt down at the sight of a cowboy hat. He became our Steady Eddie - but for some years he was the only horse who had tried to throw me. And you can still get him tense if you put your heels on his scars...and take a look at his withers! I doubt Hoofpic will do THAT to Fly!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Folks here are giving Hoofpic grief and saying he'll make Fly incapable of being sold. But not only was Cowboy free, they threw in his tack and included free delivery - because no one wanted him. And that, after a couple of years as a lesson horse - supervised by a professional with over 40 years of riding and competing!
> 
> "_If you treat your horses kindly, they'll see humans in a good light and will easily learn whatever the next person wants to teach them. The only thing I believe we need to feel responsible about training our horses to do is be polite and open to learning._"- @*gottatrot*
> 
> I agree. I can't promise Hoofpic won't get hurt riding Fly. I can't promise anyone they can be around any horse and not get hurt. But if Hoofpic, the trainer and the BO are content with Hoofpic riding Fly, then who am I to tell him no? I guess Im missing the signs that Fly is a dangerous horse. Sounds like a normal one to me.
> 
> That doesn't make you wrong for making your suggestion. You may be right. But I firmly believe a responsible trainer, watching a particular horse and rider, can reasonable say Green + Green = OK for Some Riding. Including simple trails. I've done the Green + Green thing unsafely, and I've seen it done safely. It depends.


bsms; No one has said Hoofpic should stop riding Fly. The suggestion was having a trainer put 3 months of consistent riding on her while he rode a school horse (as well as Fly) to advance his own skills. I don't get why this is so personal to you, no one said you were wrong for being green and trying to train a green horse yourself, I am not talking about you. No one suggested Fly is particularly any more dangerous than any large animal that could spook or bolt and unseat a rider, especially one who has not developed good balance from a good seat.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> What is your goal? I know you say you want her to put more training on Fly, but what kind of training?
> 
> For example, when I sent my mare to the trainer back in January, my goal was to get her in shape, physically. This included her dropping weight and getting her conditioned so that we could transition into riding her with more contact and remind her how to use her body again. So my trainer and I agreed that we would start with 30 days. He eased her into a different diet, and slowly started her into work. We reevaluated half way through, and I liked the progress they were making, so we continued. After the 30 days, I decided that I wanted to move right into the next thing, and we set out a new list of goals and started working towards them.
> 
> If you want to use your trainer, then that's fine, but make sure you set yourself and Fly up for success. Don't just tell her, "Here, put more training on Fly this winter." Because then you won't know what you're supposed to have at the end.
> 
> Take it in stages.
> 
> So start with stage one: What is the time-frame for "this winter." When is the start date and the end date?



My goal is cowboy challenge and liberty. Also, lots of riding outside and next year I plan on hauling her to trails to ride with my trainer.

This winter will start most likely second week of Nov and I cant tell when it will end, it all depends how bad the season will be. This year we had a light winter and I was riding in March.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, may I suggest that this be your journal, and if you have a question, you make a thread in the appropriate section of the HF?
> 
> And, edit your writing so that you not make statements that contain "I Know...", because in the past, those statements have mostly been debunked, and tend to cause arguments.
> 
> I do not think there is anything wrong with the PACE at which you are progressing, as I am the Queen of the " Slow Training Club".


I would do it (and I have considered it), but I want to keep everything in one thread because it's easier for me to find and track down. But thank you for the suggestion.


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## pixlbuny

Hoofpic said:


> I would do it (and I have considered it), but I want to keep everything in one thread because it's easier for me to find and track down. But thank you for the suggestion.


You may find it is actually easier to track down relevant information if you created separate threads and simply go to your CPU to find each topic as opposed to having to guess which page of this 400 + thread that one important link/video/whatever is on.


----------



## greentree

As I see it.. @bsms , the difference is (literally) academic. You have studied this subject A LOT, and therefore, have that store of knowledge to draw upon. We have made suggestion after suggestion about studying to Hoofpic, and he usually says, "I cant" , to learning the basic parts of the saddle, and points of the horse.


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## tinyliny

I bet you at least half of the members here who have had horses started out , at some time, being green and maybe owning and riding a greenish horse too. it happens all the time. you muddle through and more often than not, things work out just fine. horses aren't made of stone. they flex.
people sure hold hoofpic to mighty high standards something they might have chafed had it been applied to them back when they were muddling through.


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## greentree

HE asks the questions, lol!!

I told Hoofpic my story before.....but it comes back to the "academic", plus, I was 9....


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> My goal is cowboy challenge and liberty. Also, lots of riding outside and next year I plan on hauling her to trails to ride with my trainer.


Great! You have a defined goal. Now set your timeline. When would you like to start competing in a cowboy challenge? 

If this is something you are serious about, the first thing you need to do is learn about it. This is a great resource, https://extremecowboyassociation.com/ While you may not ever want to compete in this particular association, it can give you a pretty solid idea of what you will be scored on, and in turn gives you a list of things to work towards. I would print off the rule book and sit down with your trainer and ask if this is something she can help you with. 

The trail riding and liberty work will compliment the cowboy challenge work. So you can be working on those while training for cowboy challenge. 

I got curious and started reading parts of the rule book. I took this straight out of the FAQ section: 


"*Does my horse need to have specialized training?* 

No. Horses of all breeds with little or no specialized training are encouraged to participate. Two of the primary purposes of the sport are to have fun with your horse and improve your horsemanship at the same time.

*What is an Extreme Cowboy Association event?*

An Extreme Cowboy event challenges both horse and rider to maneuver through a series of obstacles demonstrating both horsemanship and speed.

*Are there clothing or tack requirements?*

Western style clothing and tack are required.
Snaps are OK on western style shirts.

*Is there an age limit on horses that are eligible to compete?*

There is no age limit for horses.

*Are all Extreme Cowboy Association courses the same?*

No, the courses will be different at every event. The obstacles, terrain and length of the courses will vary.

*What about scoring?*

A score is given for each obstacle on the course. A score is also given for overall horsemanship and speed.
Each obstacle consist of 3 components: the Approach to the obstacle, the Obstacle itself and the Departure from the obstacle."

So after seeing that, I personally would take this winter working on my horsemanship skills. Once those are solid, the other things would fall into place with just a little more work. I would also ride outside this winter, in the snow. My rule of thumb is that if I can make it to the barn, I can usually ride in the weather. Not always the case, there are always exceptions.


----------



## PoptartShop

Nothing wrong with constructive criticism; but if you don't take it that's on you! 

What are you going to work on with Fly today, hoofpic?


----------



## Whinnie

tinyliny said:


> I bet you at least half of the members here who have had horses started out , at some time, being green and maybe owning and riding a greenish horse too. it happens all the time. you muddle through and more often than not, things work out just fine. horses aren't made of stone. they flex.
> people sure hold hoofpic to mighty high standards something they might have chafed had it been applied to them back when they were muddling through.


Having done the green owner/green horse thing myself, (and seen several wrecks and results of others who have) I would NEVER recommend another person (ANY ONE) do this as a first choice. Given Hoofpic's difficulty in learning from the written word, the long amount of time it took him to learn to lead his mare and to even put a bridle on among other things, and the fact he has access to professionals, I still stand by my SUGGESTION to him to have Fly ridden A LOT by a professional while he rides A LOT under a professional on a school horse *to reduce the risk* of a bad accident or developing problems with Fly in the future. Not holding him to a higher standard than anyone else.


----------



## Prairie

bsms said:


> Sorry, Prairie, but we disagree. I don't think it is nearly that hard to do basic riding with basic, non-abusive control. You have a right to your opinion, and you have defended it reasonably. I've explained my view. I've watched Green + Green work fine. I've seen the results of Experienced + Experienced, and I'm underwhelmed by what experienced riders regularly do to their horses.
> 
> But you may be right. I've certainly been wrong before, both about life and horses. So Hoofpic will have to think about it from his perspective, and I'll leave his thread for a while so as not to derail it.


 
The issue becomes how far you want to take the horse's training and what your interests are in competing. To train a horse to even been safe, much less competitive, in cowboy challenge requires a trainer who has both the experience and the skills to put the "handle" on a horse that this sport requires and certainly not something a greenie owner would be able to do. 


Even those of us who have decades of experience still rely on lessons, clinics, and trainers to help us train and overcome issues if we want to succeed in competition or further our knowledge. Even as a trailer rider, the challenging trails we ride require a horse who is better trained than just the "basics" and will respond quickly to the softest cue if life gets iffy due to danger from animals, footing, weather, or whatever.


If you are underwhelmed by trainers, you're watching the wrong ones. Just because someone hangs out a trainer shingle doesn't mean that person knows what he's doing. The 2 neighboring horse trainers here have made careers out of undoing that type of training and turning a horse considered a rogue into a good working ranch horse. They were valuable resources when hubby and I were retraining 2 abused horses even though neither thought the mare would ever be safe under saddle. That mare is my "partner" today, easily sailing over fences, working cattle, calmly negotiating obstacles other experienced horses refuse, and keeping both of us safe when life goes south.


----------



## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> Sorry, Prairie, but we disagree. I don't think it is nearly that hard to do basic riding with basic, non-abusive control. You have a right to your opinion, and you have defended it reasonably. I've explained my view. I've watched Green + Green work fine. I've seen the results of Experienced + Experienced, and I'm underwhelmed by what experienced riders regularly do to their horses.
> 
> But you may be right. I've certainly been wrong before, both about life and horses. So Hoofpic will have to think about it from his perspective, and I'll leave his thread for a while so as not to derail it.





bsms said:


> Because he cannot get better by having a pro do things for him. You don't learn how to recognize a horse is about to spook, or how to respond, by riding a steady school horse. You don't learn how to handle a horse who doesn't stand still while mounting, or how to handle a horse who wants to go home when you don't want him to, without experiencing it. You don't learn about saddle fit without putting your OWN hand under the saddle, and feeling for yourself what happens when the horse walks.
> 
> Nor am I recommending Hoofpic settle for just getting by. I've recommended book and websites for him to read. I've shared some videos I like. I hope he continues to work with a trainer and to take lessons. I just think some of that progress needs to come from riding Fly.
> 
> I also don't think riding horses is quite as demanding as folks make it out to be. I compare it to what a professional guitarist told me about guitars: "_You can learn enough to strum a few chords and have fun in 30 minutes, and no one will ever live long enough to master it_."
> 
> If I thought Fly was like my first horse, I'd recommend he sell Fly and get an easier one. I learned some bad, defensive habits.
> 
> But Fly doesn't sound like a fire-breathing dragon, and I've seen a number of horses who were ruined by experienced riders. Cowboy came here as an ex-lesson horse, and he was pretty sour. The first day, he tried repeated bolting to scare his rider off. And spinning. And bucking, to the extent a 13.0 hand pony can buck.
> 
> Turned out there was a darn good, level headed pony lurking underneath. When my wife took up riding regularly in June, he's the horse I trusted her to be with. If I had to trust one horse with my life in the desert, it would be Cowboy. He's taught my wife a lot, but he was a FREE lesson horse for a reason.
> 
> Trooper had been loaned to a ranch, where a professional cowboy spurred him bloody. It took a pro 5 weeks to teach him not to melt down at the sight of a cowboy hat. He became our Steady Eddie - but for some years he was the only horse who had tried to throw me. And you can still get him tense if you put your heels on his scars...and take a look at his withers! I doubt Hoofpic will do THAT to Fly!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Folks here are giving Hoofpic grief and saying he'll make Fly incapable of being sold. But not only was Cowboy free, they threw in his tack and included free delivery - because no one wanted him. And that, after a couple of years as a lesson horse - supervised by a professional with over 40 years of riding and competing!
> 
> "_If you treat your horses kindly, they'll see humans in a good light and will easily learn whatever the next person wants to teach them. The only thing I believe we need to feel responsible about training our horses to do is be polite and open to learning._"- @*gottatrot*
> 
> I agree. I can't promise Hoofpic won't get hurt riding Fly. I can't promise anyone they can be around any horse and not get hurt. But if Hoofpic, the trainer and the BO are content with Hoofpic riding Fly, then who am I to tell him no? I guess Im missing the signs that Fly is a dangerous horse. Sounds like a normal one to me.
> 
> That doesn't make you wrong for making your suggestion. You may be right. But I firmly believe a responsible trainer, watching a particular horse and rider, can reasonable say Green + Green = OK for Some Riding. Including simple trails. I've done the Green + Green thing unsafely, and I've seen it done safely. It depends.


Thank you bsms.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Great! You have a defined goal. Now set your timeline. When would you like to start competing in a cowboy challenge?


I'm not looking that far ahead. I have to be realistic, the chances of me ever competing in one is very slim. I know around my barn, there are often cowboy challenges happening throughout the year (but it's not so much a competition, but more for leisure fun) and I would be more interested in hauling Fly to these than the really high level competitions. For one I do not like big crowds spectating. 



> If this is something you are serious about, the first thing you need to do is learn about it. This is a great resource, https://extremecowboyassociation.com/ While you may not ever want to compete in this particular association, it can give you a pretty solid idea of what you will be scored on, and in turn gives you a list of things to work towards. I would print off the rule book and sit down with your trainer and ask if this is something she can help you with.


Thanks I will print it off. My trainer is into cowboy challenge (it's not her #1 thing, dressage is, but she is into it), and has competed with one of her geldings at the Calgary Stampede before. She has trained him right from day one, he was bred at the barn. 



> The trail riding and liberty work will compliment the cowboy challenge work. So you can be working on those while training for cowboy challenge.


That's what I figured too, it's a nice mix but they all tie in together in some ways. The good thing is that I know 100% forsure (From the previous owner) that trail riding and cowboy challenge (or least obstacles, since she's never been in a Cowboy challenge before) is Fly's top interests. I'm not sure yet on whether she is into liberty but I have no doubt that she would make a great liberty horse.



> I got curious and started reading parts of the rule book. I took this straight out of the FAQ section:
> 
> "*Does my horse need to have specialized training?*
> 
> No. Horses of all breeds with little or no specialized training are encouraged to participate. Two of the primary purposes of the sport are to have fun with your horse and improve your horsemanship at the same time.
> 
> *What is an Extreme Cowboy Association event?*
> 
> An Extreme Cowboy event challenges both horse and rider to maneuver through a series of obstacles demonstrating both horsemanship and speed.
> 
> *Are there clothing or tack requirements?*
> 
> Western style clothing and tack are required.
> Snaps are OK on western style shirts.
> 
> *Is there an age limit on horses that are eligible to compete?*
> 
> There is no age limit for horses.
> 
> *Are all Extreme Cowboy Association courses the same?*
> 
> No, the courses will be different at every event. The obstacles, terrain and length of the courses will vary.
> 
> *What about scoring?*
> 
> A score is given for each obstacle on the course. A score is also given for overall horsemanship and speed.
> Each obstacle consist of 3 components: the Approach to the obstacle, the Obstacle itself and the Departure from the obstacle."
> 
> So after seeing that, I personally would take this winter working on my horsemanship skills. Once those are solid, the other things would fall into place with just a little more work. I would also ride outside this winter, in the snow. My rule of thumb is that if I can make it to the barn, I can usually ride in the weather. Not always the case, there are always exceptions.


When you say work on your horsemanship skills, do you mean through more groundwork? I am always quietly working on my horsemanship skills, whether it's just casually while leading her or putting her back out in the field, etc. A lot of the little stuff here and there that I have overlooked in the past, I don't anymore. 

I know going to the Peter Campbell clinic this weekend will reassure some things for me, and I find that its always beneficial for me to watch and observe a good well rounded horseman because it just reminds me on things. Before I wasn't going to go on Saturday, just Sunday but I have readjusted my schedule for Saturday so that I can make it out for at least the morning and then Sunday I will go out for most of the day. I am going by myself, my friends don't see this show as being beneficial to them (which I whole heartedly disagree, especially the first day because Peter goes over basic horsemanship with a horse that day!). Especially my friend with the colt, she could really benefit from this. But again, I am serious in getting better, she is not. 

Remember how about 1.5 months ago she spooked and knocked me over and clipped my ankle? I know that was 100% my fault because I shouldn't have let her sniff around while I brought her into the arena and closed the gate. That was one of my bad habits that I should have quit a long time ago. Whenever I would take her into somewhere, she sees something and wants to sniff it. So since then, I have made it a habit of keeping her focus on me whenever I bring her into the arena, barn, anywhere. There is no more snooping around and right now she just stands and waits for me to do what I need to do (close the door) whatever. If she does try to sniff, I give light shake on the lead to get her attention back on me.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I'm not looking that far ahead. I have to be realistic, the chances of me ever competing in one is very slim. I know around my barn, there are often cowboy challenges happening throughout the year (but it's not so much a competition, but more for leisure fun) and I would be more interested in hauling Fly to these than the really high level competitions. For one I do not like big crowds spectating.


That's A-OK to not look too far ahead. Your goals will likely change as you progress. I like to take a big goal and break it down into smaller ones. 




Hoofpic said:


> When you say work on your horsemanship skills, do you mean through more groundwork? I am always quietly working on my horsemanship skills, whether it's just casually while leading her or putting her back out in the field, etc. A lot of the little stuff here and there that I have overlooked in the past, I don't anymore.


Not so much more groundwork. I'm talking about riding. Really getting your balance, cues, releases down and getting Fly soft and supple and more responsive. With good instruction, it just takes time...but a trainer can help drastically there. They score the challenges by obstacle and _speed_, so it will be even more important to get all that down.


----------



## Hoofpic

I need to ask one question and it's one that I've actually was going to ask before but I didn't because I feared the backlash. No I have never really considered doing this but I've always just been curious.

When the previous owner of Fly sold her to me, she said "Do you have a trainer?"..."If you ever need any help with her...contact me, I can come out to help you, afterall I know her the best". Which is true. When I bought Fly, pretty much ALL, 100% of her training has come under the hands of the previous owner since she was the one who bought her as a project horse and broke her in.

Now my question is, do you think it would be a bad idea to have her back out? No I am NOT using her as a trainer because I know she is not one. Not saying that I need her help, but she does know Fly the best and perhaps she could teach or tell me more things about her that I don't currently know. 

For instance, I know that she has ridden her over creeks, rivers (small ones) and bridges over water. She has also been ridden in spurs and a hackmore. She also did get into tricks with Fly but just lightly.

Something tells me that I shouldn't have her out because she would want money for it. PLUS, there are some things that she has mentioned to me about Fly that has caught my attention. I get a strong feeling that during the time she had her, she was never hard enough on Fly.

"Fly needs reminders every now and then"
"She can have an attitude at times...she knows she's really pretty and always has something to say"


----------



## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I'm not looking that far ahead. I have to be realistic, the chances of me ever competing in one is very slim. I know around my barn, there are often cowboy challenges happening throughout the year (but it's not so much a competition, but more for leisure fun) and I would be more interested in hauling Fly to these than the really high level competitions. For one I do not like big crowds spectating.


But you should be if you ever want to participate in those events. There are your "long term" goals, and your "short term" goals. My long term is showing Izzie at Grand Prix. I can promise you I have at minimum of 5 years before we are there. My short term is making the official jump to schooling Third Level and showing Second Level. Other goals are graduating to a double and maybe earning my Bronze medal on her. But my end, "I want to make it!" goal is showing at the top.

So yours would be doing these local, more for leisure events. Which is fine. First goal for you would be obtaining proper balance in the saddle. Can't open and close a gate if you're unbalanced. Another would get getting Fly into her gaits, and having her maintain them. Yet another is steering and her learning to turn as soon as you so much as add a touch of weight in either direction. This would allow your hands to be free to grab the coat, open the gate, drag the object, etc.

Right now, realistically, you could not compete in this event. My own horse would need some work before trying it (I have yet to open a gate from her back). But you HAVE a desire to do it. WHY would you want to plod along? You've been given great options. I still highly recommend having Fly with the trainer being taught to maintain gaits and proper steering while you learn how to balance properly and to gain a feeling.

And whoever said you couldn't learn how to handle situations in lessons, I call baloney. A rider this green needs to focus on HIMSELF first. THEN graduate to a lesson horse who will test him a bit more. I didn't get to ride the horses that would shoot out from under me until I'd had a well developed seat and a proper understanding of how to control a horse. The more Fly is taught what she can get away with, the higher the possibility she will start using that to her advantage. I'd REALLY like to not see you get hurt. There is NOTHING wrong with going back to lessons and having someone else train your horse for a bit, especially when you yourself are unclear on the proper aids when riding.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> That's A-OK to not look too far ahead. Your goals will likely change as you progress. I like to take a big goal and break it down into smaller ones.


I would do this same thing as well but remember what Golden said, to drop the goals because Fly is not a machine and I have to take things in stride. I know I got really harped on many months when I was so goal focused. 



> Not so much more groundwork. I'm talking about riding. Really getting your balance, cues, releases down and getting Fly soft and supple and more responsive. With good instruction, it just takes time...but a trainer can help drastically there. They score the challenges by obstacle and _speed_, so it will be even more important to get all that down.


Okay thanks.

I will say a few things and I know everyone on here will disagree with me, but this is going by what my trainer has said.

1) Fly has become significantly more responsive and softer over the past 6 months. She responds to softer ques, she is quicker and more willing.
2) My releases and cues are night and day better than when I first starting riding. Did I ever post a video of my hands when I first rode the lesson horse last year? I don't think I did, nor did I record it (which I should have because I would love to watch it myself). My trainer will tell you that my hands stopped being a problem many months ago. 

Am I perfectly balanced? No, nor am I expecting to me but I will do anything that I can to get the most balanced that I possibly can.

I dispise the word perfect as I've always believed that word should not even exist. It is an wrong description that only brings unrealistic expectations. But my balance is getting there. Again, I know everyone will read this and shake their heads in disgust but I don't care. My balance is getting there. 

I just found out two days ago from my chiro that my body is actually unbalanced. What I mean by that is that, my spine is crooked and leans more to my left. I am going to get this addressed ASAP with constant chiro adjustments from him because he asked what my immediate fitness goals are and I said "to get my core stronger" and this Winter I really plan on fully engaging this. He said that I need get my spine straight and balanced again, or else I will be limited in how well and how strong I can strengthen my core.

I am getting x-rays taken later today at a lab, then I have to go back to see him for a second visit to re-evaluate my x-rays, then he will come up with a plan on getting my spine straight again.

And I know that nobody likes her but I have full trust and confidence that my trainer can help get me there. Aside from being a horse trainer, she also teaches womens kickboxing, so she is well health concious and very much into fitness, and knows how to strengthen the core etc.

Do you remember in March of this year when I mentioned to you guys that my trainer and BO kept asking me when I'm going to ride Fly? They felt I was ready, but I didn't, so I asked for more time. Then when May came, they asked again and they said that I need to get on her, now, not later, now. So I did.

Well I think a big reason why my trainer is so persistant in having me ride Fly is because she has confidence in me being able to do it. If she didn't she wouldn;t have me ride her. She's not going to have me ride her just because I own her, there is much more to it. But all I know is that the mindset behind my trainer and my BO are for the best. If she didn't think I could ride Fly, she would tell me to stop and get back on my lesson mare. But she hasn't. Why? Because she has seen constant and consistent improvement. 

If you ask her if she would think that I would be riding Fly this year with the reins straight on the bit, she would say no. But I've been riding with the reins right on the bit for the past 4-5 months. 

If you ask her if she would think that I would be riding Fly this year on my own without any supervision, she would say no. But I've been riding her on my own for the past 4-5 months.

I'm sure there are more examples, but this is just off the top of my head.


----------



## Hoofpic

Do you remember in March of this year when I mentioned to you guys that my trainer and BO kept asking me when I'm going to ride Fly? They felt I was ready, but I didn't, so I asked for more time. Then when May came, they asked again and they said that I need to get on her, now, not later, now. So I did.

The first couple times that I rode her, I was questioning if I was ready, but they kept saying that I was, so they obviously saw something that I didn't. If my BO did not care for the best for the horse and owner, he would not be sitting in on my first 3 lessons to observe. He cares, a lot, and I know that he is a good man to only advise the best direction. Same with my trainer.

When I first rode the lesson mare and even Fly doing 20m circles, I doubted if I could ever do it. I was uncomfortable, unbalanced, didn't feel right, and a bit nervous. But my trainer said I can do it, with time and practice. Keep doing it and you will get better. It's my trainers confidence in me is what motivates and drives me to take that extra step to get better. This is why i really enjoy learning from her. She gives me confidence when I tend to lack or question it and she pushes me when she feels I can do better. She is always hard on me when I am not being hard enough on Fly as I need to be. I can still be harder on Fly (with the crop) when I need to be, but time will get me there. The day that she saw me in one lesson giving Fly big hard boots like I never have before, she was very VERY happy to see that because it was a new level of confidence that she hasn't seen before in me.

All I'm saying is that I know my trainer and BO are incredibly good people. They're not going to tell people to keep riding their horse because that's what most owners want to hear. They are saying it for a reason. If they didn't think I was capable in riding her, they would tell me to stop and get back on a lesson horse. So they obviously see something in me that no one on here sees.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

No one said you couldn't ride her they're suggesting getting some more training put into her.


----------



## bsms

Prairie said:


> ...Even as a trailer rider, the challenging trails we ride require a horse who is better trained than just the "basics" and will respond quickly to the softest cue if life gets iffy due to danger from animals, footing, weather, or whatever...
> 
> If you are underwhelmed by trainers, you're watching the wrong ones...


The book with the greatest impact on my riding was VS Littauer's "Common Sense Horsemanship". It was largely geared toward jumping, which I do not do. But just as the principles of forward riding can be adapted to western riding (if one wants), the philosophy of riding he taught can be applied to trail riding.

He said that at the higher levels of competition, a rider HAD to direct his horse because the jumps were so big and so frequent that the horse could not compete while using its own judgment. But as a rule, for most recreational riders, he believed you taught the horse to jump. The rider then concentrated on staying out of the horse's way while the horse jumped.

I think that applies even more to trails. I don't go hundreds of feet down steep slopes, but I daily go down slopes where my horse cannot afford to slip. And they will put a foot in a spot, test their weight on it and decide if it can be trusted. If not, they try a different spot or a different foot. There is no way I can control them doing that. Only the horse can feel the footing. Only the horse can keep us safe. All I can do is teach them by slowly introducing harder spots. Slipping on a 3' slope isn't too dangerous, and it teaches them how to be careful on a bigger slope. So I use Littauer's approach to jumping and apply it to trails.

None of this requires or uses any advanced control. The "Elementary Control" Littauer taught is more than enough to teach a horse by letting the horse do small things before trying bigger things. All one really needs is "Stop", "Go", "Left" and "Right". If you think about it, that is ALL one ever does with a horse, really. The rest is just variations.

And even those will need improvement outside the arena. My horses stop off my seat fine in an arena. We're going in circles! None of them get excited about working hard going nowhere! But in a progression of small to large, getting good at stopping in an arena is the small, while stopping even when the horse would prefer to race, or going straight when the horse would prefer to turn, is bigger. 

The arena is a marginal place for training a trail horse because (excepting some games and things like jumping or cutting) it doesn't make sense to the horse. Teaching riding on a school horse in an arena teaches riders to give a cue and expect the horse to respond. Cue-respond. Cue-respond. The rider thinks. The horse moves.

None of my horses will sidepass in the arena. All will get it done on a trail. When I ask them to move over sideways on a trail, I have a reason. And the horse is thinking too! The horse usually has already figured out moving sideways would help, and is waiting for me to agree. The beauty of trail riding for teaching a horse is that it provides context.

The way to safely teach a horse to ride trails is not getting a high level of 'body control' in an arena. Forward, back, stop, go, left, right - that is enough, provided you then take small bites and chew thoroughly. A couple of Ray Hunt quotes apply well:

"_There's a purpose and a meaning behind each thing you ask the horse to do._"

"_Don't be afraid to expose your horse to something he hasn't quite been exposed to yet, but don't snow him under._"

Do it gradually (small bites). As the horse progresses, give it a chance to stay at the same level for a while (chew thoroughly). Then take another small step forward. Hoofpic and I are not pros trying to train a horse for a client who wants X in 60 days. If it takes a year to do what a pro could do in 15 days, but if we are enjoying the process (including detours and sometimes needing to back up and start over), then what does it matter? We're riding OUR horses, not getting paid to ride a client's!

"_if life gets iffy due to danger from animals, footing, weather, or whatever_", what I need is not advanced body control. *The horse already possesses a more advanced body control than any rider!* What I need is his trust in my guidance, and my confidence in his trust and ability.

And that comes in small steps. For someone whose goal is trail riding, that includes getting out of the arena and developing trust - by gradually ramping up the difficulty, building a good foundation before doing more, and yes - by making small mistakes and learning from them. Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. That is true for both horse and rider.

Safety comes in a horse and rider doing it together. I don't know how to learn "together" by doing things "apart". A strange school horse can't teach me to read my horse and act together. It is almost harmful, because it teaches "control" instead of trust in the horse and gradually expanding "OUR" horizons. I don't have exquisite body control of my horse. I never will. My HORSE has it, and we work as a team.

*I've never seen Hoofpick ride Fly*. I don't have any idea what he and Fly are capable of doing together right now. I tried to do too much too soon and scared the daylights out of me - and my horse. I'm glad Hoofpic and Fly have a trainer to work with. And working in an arena with a trainer on what Littauer called "fluid balance" is important, too! But if the trainer and BO and others who see Hoofpic and Fly ride regularly say they are ready to start going out - who am I to disagree?


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## Hoofpic

Does $150 sound reasonable for a saddle fitter to come out and do the initial assessment? This is doing measurements etc without any testing of new saddles.


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## DraftyAiresMum

No one has ever said you have to be perfect. ALL horses and riders need more work. Just because Fly is softer now than she was before doesn't mean that she can't be even softer still. Just because your hands are better now than they were before doesn't mean they can't still improve. When someone suggests something, it is to be helpful, not to attack you or point out flaws. There is ZERO need for you to get defensive when someone suggests something.

As for having the old owner out. Don't do it. Half the fun is learning a horse's quirks on your own. Also, things can go poorly with old owners. That's how I lost my old gelding. The old owners came out to "check on him" and freaked out because our barn wasn't up to their standard (they live in Scottsdale, where pretty much everyone has AC in their barns and their horses are ridiculous pampered...Dakota was in a 15' by 25' mare motel stall that was partially enclosed on one end to protect from the elements and was perfectly happy) and because Dakota was "skinny" (he was 100lbs overweight when he came to us for retraining and we had him slimmed down to a nice, healthy weight...they like their horses with fat pockets and jiggle and anything less than that is skinny and abused :icon_rolleyes: never mind that being overweight was aggravating Dakota's hock arthritis). They decided to take him back and because all we had were verbal agreements, I lost my horse.


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## Prairie

LOL, bsms, I competed in hunters and jumpers for years successfully on the national level and that was working up the "ranks" through lessons under several different recognized instructors on a variety of horses. Personally, I've yet to find one trainer whose advice and technique worked on every horse. I also was the trainer of the mare that DD rode to number 1 in the nation. No doubt my definition of basic training is very different than yours since after I finished basic training, that horse is ready to be taken in many directions depending on the rider's interest.


As for learning to read a horse, that only comes from handling many horses over years in a variety of circumstances. Only learning on one horse is like being a one man band----you never learn to play with a group or how different instruments contribute to the overall pleasure to the senses.


To see Hoofpic's riding, he's posted many videos and pictures on this forum.


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## Hoofpic

I was talking with one of my friends and she still believes that I'm better off hauling Fly to a tack shop and getting them to fit and try on saddles there. It will no doubt be the quickest, if I'm not too overly concerned about finding the best saddle for the best and lowest price, then chances are I walk out with a well fitted saddle that same day and it's over and done with. No running around, no footwork, no shopping, but I will have to pay the price.

The only thing is, I would need to get my trainer to haul Fly and I'm not sure if she would or not. Our closest tack shop is only 15mins away but unfortunately that is the tack shop where the owner was pushing to sell me her Rio Mercedez boots and kept claiming that my Ariats were not a suitable riding boot. So can I trust her? I'm sure she will do the measurements and fitting fine, but chances are she will try to sell me an overly high end saddle that I don't need.

Another thing is, don't you need to actually ride the horse with the saddle on them to get the best test results? As opposed to just throwing it on them.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> No one has ever said you have to be perfect. ALL horses and riders need more work. Just because Fly is softer now than she was before doesn't mean that she can't be even softer still. Just because your hands are better now than they were before doesn't mean they can't still improve. When someone suggests something, it is to be helpful, not to attack you or point out flaws. There is ZERO need for you to get defensive when someone suggests something.


Yes and I understand that but I feel that I am having to defend for my trainer and BO because I believe in them and they have become my mentors. I am being accused of ignoring advice on here just because I don't follow or agree with all of it. Trust me, there is a lot of advice on here that I have taken and run with and I am very grateful for the advice given, I really am. But it wasn't long ago where I was told on here to stop believing what others tell me and to just stick with my trainer and now it's the opposite. 



> As for having the old owner out. Don't do it. Half the fun is learning a horse's quirks on your own. Also, things can go poorly with old owners. That's how I lost my old gelding. The old owners came out to "check on him" and freaked out because our barn wasn't up to their standard (they live in Scottsdale, where pretty much everyone has AC in their barns and their horses are ridiculous pampered...Dakota was in a 15' by 25' mare motel stall that was partially enclosed on one end to protect from the elements and was perfectly happy) and because Dakota was "skinny" (he was 100lbs overweight when he came to us for retraining and we had him slimmed down to a nice, healthy weight...they like their horses with fat pockets and jiggle and anything less than that is skinny and abused :icon_rolleyes: never mind that being overweight was aggravating Dakota's hock arthritis). They decided to take him back and because all we had were verbal agreements, I lost my horse.


I'm sorry to hear what happened with you and the former owner of your horse. Which horse was this?

I agree, after much thinking it makes sense to not have the previous owner of Fly back out (at least not to work with). She came out once (she requested it) just as a brief visit last October 2015 when Fly was still in the isolation field and she said she looked great and was pleased with how well I was taking care of her.


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## Prairie

Personally, after I determined that a saddle appears to be a good fit for the horse, I still want to ride in it long enough to get the horse a little sweaty so I can look at the sweat marks---dry marks in the wrong areas or excess sweat where there should be good airflow are a dead giveaway that the saddle does not fit. 


It the tack shop owner/ saddle fitter is knowledgeable, that person should be able to look at Fly and determine which of their saddles would be good possibilities to fit her. If the shop is only 15 minutes away, why not just walk Fly there if you don't want to pay for someone to trailer her there?


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Personally, after I determined that a saddle appears to be a good fit for the horse, I still want to ride in it long enough to get the horse a little sweaty so I can look at the sweat marks---dry marks in the wrong areas or excess sweat where there should be good airflow are a dead giveaway that the saddle does not fit.
> 
> 
> It the tack shop owner/ saddle fitter is knowledgeable, that person should be able to look at Fly and determine which of their saddles would be good possibilities to fit her. If the shop is only 15 minutes away, why not just walk Fly there if you don't want to pay for someone to trailer her there?


Thanks. I've been doing quite a bit of searching for reputable saddle fitters in my area and I can't get a hold of any of them! I've left messages and no call backs so far.

From my research, it seems just about all these saddle fitters that I'm coming across are custom saddler makers. So if I run the idea by them of them coming out to my barn, then I go to the tack shop on my own, bring back some saddles and have them come back out to the barn trying on saddles that they didn't make, I feel many of them will hang up on me and not be interested in helping me simply because I'm not buying a saddle from them.

I'm debating if it's worth $150 for a saddle fitter to come out to do the initial 2 hour assessment, then god knows how many more hours when they come back to try on saddles. It could easily be 3 or 4 hours if I'm trying on more than two saddles. It can be quite expensive. At the end of the road, I could easily see myself spending $500+ just on the saddle fitter alone. Would I be better off just hauling Fly to the tack shop and putting that money towards my saddle? Say I end up buying a $1500 saddle, that $500 covers 1/3 of it. That's pretty significant if you ask me. 

I did the math and having a saddle fitter come out is not cheap, they charge on average $75/hr plus however much cents/km for milage to drive out. 

$150 to do the initial assessment, which is 2 hours long.

Then say 3-4 hours (at least) to do fitting of at least a few saddles. $75x4 = $300. $300+$150=$450. 

Because I know when I had the first saddle fitter come out when I was trialing my current saddle, she was here for 1.5-2hours and that was just to trial one saddle. 

The one tack store that is 15mins away, that is by car. It's way too long to walk, it's about 17km each way. I'm sure my trainer would haul Fly for me if I asked her.

But the biggest tack shop here in Alberta is where I bought my current saddle. It's unfortunately about 70km away and that's a 50min drive by car. I'm sure my trainer would be willing to haul if I pay her a bit more than just gas on this one. 

And that's the thing, if I haul her, it's not like I can ride afterwards.

I could be wrong here, but I just have a gut feeling to not waste my time having a saddle fitter come out and to just haul her to a shop (afterall I have to find a GOOD one, look how my previous one turned out, Im really scared now in finding a good fitter).


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## Hoofpic

Another thing I thought of just now is that...how about this?!

Since Fly's current saddle literally fits her perfect, aside from the fork around the tree being too wide. Why don't I just bring the saddle into tack shops, find a saddle that is the same all around but narrower around the tree? I mean afterall, the ONLY problem with my current saddle is that the fork around the tree is too wide, everything else is perfect, so I would think that it shouldn't be too difficult to find a new saddle. The only thing is I would need to find the exact measurement on how much narrower of a tree I need. 

I don't think it would hurt to try at least. You never know right?

Because I will be honest, I trust you guys more about fitting a new saddle on Fly than I do trying to find a reputable and good fitter to come to the barn. I know there are good fitters around here but after what's happened with the previous one, I am so discouraged.

And you know, (even though I have stated many times before that I try not to go to my BO about too many things if I can avoid it), it's too bad he is not well enough right now, otherwise he would be the perfect person to ask. I wouldn't need a fitter to come out and he definitely would be more than willing to test out saddles that I bring back to the barn. Afterall, he has done it for just about all the boarders at the barn right now. None of them had fitters come out, they all just went to the BO to assess. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he knew more about saddle fitting than a lot of saddle fitters alone.


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## greentree

Is it just me....or do some of us just never seem to move ON???


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## Prairie

That $500 for a saddle fitter will look cheap if the wrong saddle damages Fly's back and withers. Horses are expensive so just figure that $500 averaged over the years that a properly fitting saddle will be used is not that much.


As for the BO and trainer being your mentors, you're old enough to realize that anyone whom you are handing money to is not necessary your best critic----they want your money so will tell you what you want to hear!. Very few of us are impressed at all by your so called trainer-----she's missed too much to be considered reputable!


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Is it just me....or do some of us just never seem to move ON???


Well you can think what you want.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I'm debating if it's worth $150 for a saddle fitter to come out to do the initial 2 hour assessment, then god knows how many more hours when they come back to try on saddles. ... Would I be better off just hauling Fly to the tack shop and putting that money towards my saddle?


Take her to the shop (or learn how to take your own measurements), have the staff at the tack shop help you pick out a few saddles, take them out on trial, and have an experienced saddle fitter out to look at them. It shouldn't take four hours for him to help you decide on a saddle. If you take three saddles, he's probably going to point out which one fits Fly the best and then you'll ride in that one and decide if you like it. If you don't like it, the tack shop's only 15 minutes away and you can take the fitter with you when you look for a second round of saddles to try. If you do like it, then take them _all_ back and buy the one you like online to save money.

Does a saddle fitter cost money? Yes, because he's a professional and his time is worth it. But if you cut down on how much time you need him for by making the process as stream-lined as possible and then remember that Ebay is your friend, then you shouldn't come out of the experience completely broke—or worse, with a saddle that only sort of fits.

We're on the internet, we're not with you in the tack shop. You really should have professional guidance to get this done right. Ask around for recommendations for a good saddle fitter (which, I'm just saying, would be easier if any one around your barn seemed to believe in saddle fitting...), or search the internet for recommendations.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> That $500 for a saddle fitter will look cheap if the wrong saddle damages Fly's back and withers. Horses are expensive so just figure that $500 averaged over the years that a properly fitting saddle will be used is not that much.


I've never seen how owners or people at tack shops fit saddles onto horses that get hauled in but I'm guessing it's not near as comprehensive as a saddle fitter? Am I right? I've also never seen how a saddle fitter goes about doing their initial assessment, so I'm not sure what they do that people at tack shops don't do.

Would you trust owners, people at the tack shops? I guess it depends on that specific shop.

Another idea is that I could haul Fly and have the fitter there meet me and do their fitting there. That way, I won't need to have them back out to the barn. I'm sure this method is not all that common among horse owners shopping for a new saddle. 



> As for the BO and trainer being your mentors, you're old enough to realize that anyone whom you are handing money to is not necessary your best critic----they want your money so will tell you what you want to hear!. Very few of us are impressed at all by your so called trainer-----she's missed too much to be considered reputable!


I've already expressed my thoughts on this. Like someone on here mentioned earlier, every trainer will have their weaknesses. I think this saddle fitting issue has been blown out of proportion because of my inability to say exactly like how things exactly are.


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## StephaniHren

greentree said:


> Is it just me....or do some of us just never seem to move ON???





Hoofpic said:


> Well you can think what you want.


I think Greentree just meant that we should all stop arguing about the trainer/green-on-green situation and move on, that's all. You don't have to be rude, especially when Greentree's trying to help you get this circus back on the road.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Take her to the shop (or learn how to take your own measurements), have the staff at the tack shop help you pick out a few saddles, take them out on trial, and have an experienced saddle fitter out to look at them. It shouldn't take four hours for him to help you decide on a saddle. If you take three saddles, he's probably going to point out which one fits Fly the best and then you'll ride in that one and decide if you like it. If you don't like it, the tack shop's only 15 minutes away and you can take the fitter with you when you look for a second round of saddles to try. If you do like it, then take them _all_ back and buy the one you like online to save money.
> 
> Does a saddle fitter cost money? Yes, because he's a professional and his time is worth it. But if you cut down on how much time you need him for by making the process as stream-lined as possible and then remember that Ebay is your friend, then you shouldn't come out of the experience completely broke—or worse, with a saddle that only sort of fits.
> 
> We're on the internet, we're not with you in the tack shop. You really should have professional guidance to get this done right. Ask around for recommendations for a good saddle fitter (which, I'm just saying, would be easier if any one around your barn seemed to believe in saddle fitting...), or search the internet for recommendations.


My only issue is that the tack shop 15mins away, I don't trust the owner after what happened the last time I was there. She is nothing but a salesman. If she tells me that my Ariat boots are riding boots and that I need narrower stirrups and leather sole boots just to ride, well then what will she say when I bring in my current saddle and she sees Fly? She has seen my current saddle because I got her guy to twist my stirrups on them, but she hasn't seen the horse that it's used on. 

She could end up just wasting my time telling me that I need a $4000 Vic Bennett saddle for all I know. I was really really turned off the last time I went there and how she was telling me that I need this and that but she was just trying to upsell me.

Plus her saddle selection is far more limited than other shops. She has maybe 200-300 saddles on hand.

The one saddle shop that I would go to is Irvines, but they are 70km away. They have a much larger selection though, this is the place with 1000+ saddles in stock at all times. It's basically a saddle super center.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Well you can think what you want.



Hoofpic, think back on how many times you've discussed the same thing repeatedly like pulling the saddle pad up into the gullet of the saddle or to stay out of your friend's business with their horses!


You don't have the knowledge to figure out if a saddle fit the horse so hire a saddle fitter who does. The issue with too wide a gullet is that saddle is sitting on the horse's wither, causing pain and possibly damage to the withers and back.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I think Greentree just meant that we should all stop arguing about the trainer/green-on-green situation and move on, that's all. You don't have to be rude, especially when Greentree's trying to help you get this circus back on the road.


Okay now I know what she meant, thanks, but I wasn't being rude. I can't please everyone and I know that not everyone will be happy with my decisions. Everyone will have their own opinion and I can't force you to change it.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Plus her saddle selection is far more limited than other shops. She has maybe 200-300 saddles on hand.


I would kill for this. Do you realize how many saddles this is? I can drive an hour and a half and not be surrounded by this many saddles.

Also, I think you're over thinking this. Sure she might try to upsell you, just don't let her. Take your saddle fitter with you, if you want. Either way, you're going to need a saddle fitter. I'd just skip the initial consult, bring Fly with you to the tack shop (and the fitter too, if you want), and take a few on trial to try out. Either way, you should definitely ride in one before you buy (and again, Ebay is your friend).


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, think back on how many times you've discussed the same thing repeatedly like pulling the saddle pad up into the gullet of the saddle or to stay out of your friend's business with their horses!


I am aware of this and I'm not doing this on purpose. I know many of you think I am, but it's not intentional.



> You don't have the knowledge to figure out if a saddle fit the horse so hire a saddle fitter who does. The issue with too wide a gullet is that saddle is sitting on the horse's wither, causing pain and possibly damage to the withers and back.


I am not saying that Im going to try to fit a saddle to Fly, either way I will have a saddle fitter out, it's just when and where.

I will give you an example. Let's just say that I decide to haul Fly to a tack shop, I get the store owner/workers to fit a few saddles and they happen to fit one and swear to me that it fits her 100%. I'm not going to go home and start riding her in it. I will still have the saddle fitter out to test it. 

But I do think that with my current saddle fitting Fly everywhere else really well, and just the fork around the tree being a bit wide on her, me bringing in my saddle to the shop to find ones with narrower forks (even if it's just to see what they have, mark it down, put it aside for a couple days), could be beneficial for me.

Let me call the tack shop, hold on. I am not going to the barn today so today would be an ideal time to visit them.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I was talking with one of my friends and she still believes that I'm better off hauling Fly to a tack shop and getting them to fit and try on saddles there. It will no doubt be the quickest, if I'm not too overly concerned about finding the best saddle for the best and lowest price, then chances are I walk out with a well fitted saddle that same day and it's over and done with. No running around, no footwork, no shopping, but I will have to pay the price.
> 
> The only thing is, I would need to get my trainer to haul Fly and I'm not sure if she would or not. Our closest tack shop is only 15mins away but unfortunately that is the tack shop where the owner was pushing to sell me her Rio Mercedez boots and kept claiming that my Ariats were not a suitable riding boot. So can I trust her? I'm sure she will do the measurements and fitting fine, but chances are she will try to sell me an overly high end saddle that I don't need.
> 
> Another thing is, don't you need to actually ride the horse with the saddle on them to get the best test results? As opposed to just throwing it on them.


I agree with your friend. I do think that's the best option you have- hauling her to a tack shop. I would avoid the Rio's of Mercedes shop...that lady ticked me off for you! She will try to over-sell. But if you go into it educated, you could call her out on her BS...and that may be fun. 

You don't have to ride in the saddle to see if it fits your horse, but wouldn't it be nice to ride in it to see if it fits you?


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I would kill for this. Do you realize how many saddles this is? I can drive an hour and a half and not be surrounded by this many saddles.
> 
> Also, I think you're over thinking this. Sure she might try to upsell you, just don't let her. Take your saddle fitter with you, if you want. Either way, you're going to need a saddle fitter. I'd just skip the initial consult, bring Fly with you to the tack shop (and the fitter too, if you want), and take a few on trial to try out. Either way, you should definitely ride in one before you buy (and again, Ebay is your friend).


I know 200-300 is still a lot but I know when I first went in there last Fall, they didn't even have a single saddle with a seat smaller than 16" and the place where I bought my saddle had tons of 15.5" seats. 

Also, I don't even know if the owner saddle fits. She probably does, but how well and after the last time I was there I walked out confused on whether or not I did need leather sole boots to ride in and whether or not my boots with laces was a risk for getting caught in the stirrups.

I called the shop where I bought my current saddle and the girl said that the owners (a couple) do all the saddle fitting. So I'm going to head there shortly (have to run to the barn first to pick up my saddle), then see what they have as a clone for a saddle except narrower forks around the tree. While I am at the barn, I figure I might as well do another trace of Fly's withers with my stencil tool. Afterall they could be different from when I traced them last year. 

It's worth a try at least don't you think?

Afterall Fly's current saddle fits her perfect, it's just the fork around the tree is too wide (and I thank you to everyone who brought this to my attention from seeing her pictures), so it shouldn't be overly difficult to find ones that are a mirror clone but narrow trees. If I am lucky, get a few today, take them back to the barn and then have a saddle fitter come out.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I know 200-300 is still a lot but I know when I first went in there last Fall, they didn't even have a single saddle with a seat smaller than 16" and the place where I bought my saddle had tons of 15.5" seats.


What size seat is your saddle?


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> What size seat is your saddle?


15.5". I'm skinny and find anything larger is too big and I start to shift around. I have sat in some 15" seats that were just as comfy as the one now, it all depends on how much support there is at the back of the seat.

I'm going to go to the tack shop early this evening. I left a message for the owner to call me back to see if i can set an appointment with her as she is in and out today.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I'm sorry to hear what happened with you and the former owner of your horse. Which horse was this?


This was my first horse, Dakota. He was an Arab/NSH cross. Came to my friend for retraining because he was dangerous with his old owners. He was only dangerous because they made him that way. He was my first retraining project and the first time I'd ever worked with a horse from the ground to the saddle. He went from being rude, pushy, and dangerous, to being suitable to use as a bareback lesson horse in a french link snaffle for little kids.


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I agree, after much thinking it makes sense to not have the previous owner of Fly back out (at least not to work with). She came out once (she requested it) just as a brief visit last October 2015 when Fly was still in the isolation field and she said she looked great and was pleased with how well I was taking care of her.


I'm glad you've opted not to have the former owner out. I'd rather drop dead than allow Izzie's former owner out to see her. Not because my mare is in a bad situation, but the fact the former owner is bat sh!t crazy. And saw no issue in sending out pictures of my kids with Izzie, that she took off of my facebook, to prospective buyers of a foal sired by Izzie's sire. It's better to just keep going without her influence.



Hoofpic said:


> Plus her saddle selection is far more limited than other shops. She has maybe 200-300 saddles on hand.


I WISH I had that many saddles at one store. I get they didn't have any in your size, but I don't see how it would hurt to call. And did the 16" feel *that* much bigger? Just curious.

Far as the saddle fitter debate, they are hard to find. Especially independent ones that aren't back by certain brands. For reference, this is the fitter I have coming out within the next couple of days. This is her price list: Saddle Tree Prices for flocking, fitting and common saddle repairs


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I agree with your friend. I do think that's the best option you have- hauling her to a tack shop. I would avoid the Rio's of Mercedes shop...that lady ticked me off for you! She will try to over-sell. But if you go into it educated, you could call her out on her BS...and that may be fun.
> 
> You don't have to ride in the saddle to see if it fits your horse, but wouldn't it be nice to ride in it to see if it fits you?


I'm going to try bringing my saddle to the shop tonight first and see what comes from it. I have nothing to lose.

I am willing to buy a new saddle today if I found one. Yes I know that my massage lady suggested I should wait until the SPring (she said because her form will change and that she is going through a growth spurt), but I am going to go against her on this one. I know the saddle that I have now is servicable for the time being, but if I can avoid riding Fly the entire winter in it (even if it's just 2x a week), then I will do anything I can to avoid it simply for her well being and health. When it comes to her health, I will do anything for her. 

Say I ride her 2x a week for 4 months of the winter (and this is if Im lucky with not so bad weather), that is 32 rides being ridden in a saddle that has the tree too wide. I want to avoid this.

If I have to ride in her current saddle for the next couple weeks, that shouldn't be an issue right? It's at least a lot better than all winter. But I want to find a new saddle ASAP. 

My only concern is that, because Fly is going through a growth spurt right now and over the next couple months her withers and topline will be coming up to make her less downhill, Im worried that I buy a saddle right now and then in a couple months, the saddle no longer fits after her withers and topline come up some more. What are the chances of this happening?


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This was my first horse, Dakota. He was an Arab/NSH cross. Came to my friend for retraining because he was dangerous with his old owners. He was only dangerous because they made him that way. He was my first retraining project and the first time I'd ever worked with a horse from the ground to the saddle. He went from being rude, pushy, and dangerous, to being suitable to use as a bareback lesson horse in a french link snaffle for little kids.


He looks very sweet. He looks very skinny in the first pic. How long did you have him for before the previous owner took him back? I didn't know this was legal. I thought once ownership is transferred over, that the previous owner can't take them back. I know you mentioned that the sale was done with a verbal agreement, but they didn't transfer the ownership over to you?

I could be wrong but I'm almost certain here in Alberta, it's illegal to resell a horse without transferring ownership.

Do you know how he is doing now? I wonder if he has gone back to being a pushy horse seeing how he has the previous owners again.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I'm glad you've opted not to have the former owner out. I'd rather drop dead than allow Izzie's former owner out to see her. Not because my mare is in a bad situation, but the fact the former owner is bat sh!t crazy. And saw no issue in sending out pictures of my kids with Izzie, that she took off of my facebook, to prospective buyers of a foal sired by Izzie's sire. It's better to just keep going without her influence.
> 
> I WISH I had that many saddles at one store. I get they didn't have any in your size, but I don't see how it would hurt to call. And did the 16" feel *that* much bigger? Just curious.
> 
> Far as the saddle fitter debate, they are hard to find. Especially independent ones that aren't back by certain brands. For reference, this is the fitter I have coming out within the next couple of days. This is her price list: Saddle Tree Prices for flocking, fitting and common saddle repairs


Well I guess finding a good saddle fitter is the hard part, just like a good farrier, or vet, etc. I talked to one saddle fitter a year ago (when I first originally was considering getting a custom saddle for Fly), and she just kept wanting to sell her brand to me, saying how I have to buy it and it's the best etc.

I just know that there are a few things about the previous owner that I particularly wasn't too fond of and IMO is a reason why it's not a good reason to really keep in touch with her. 

For instance, she trimmed her feet the entire 2 years that she had her, despite her not being a farrier. I'm not saying you have to be a farrier to be able to trim properly, but Fly had all 4 feet at different angles. Thankfully my farrier now has addressed the issue and her feet are alot better today than when I first got Fly and 4 months ago when I ditched my previous farrier. Fly just got trimmed yesterday.

And also, the fact that the previous owner told me that Fly constantly needs reminders. I know that horses will always test but if they respect their owner then they don't need reminders. Well I know Fly is someone who will test someone she doesn't know. She still does test me today but no near as much as before (which is a good sign is it not?).

FOr instance when the massage lady came out on Monday, Fly was swinging her butt into her when she was being massaged in a tight spot. She wouldn't stand still, she swung her butt to her a few times. She looked like Fly from Sept 2015 when we first arrived at the barn where she would dance, not Fly of Oct 2016. I know she was telling the massage lady that it was uncomfortable for her and that she didn't like it, but that still doesn't give her any reason to be rude about it. But Fly was better as the session went on and after she let out a bunch of releases. But even she was pawing at times and Fly never paws anymore (at least when Im with her).


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> He looks very sweet. He looks very skinny in the first pic. How long did you have him for before the previous owner took him back? I didn't know this was legal. I thought once ownership is transferred over, that the previous owner can't take them back. I know you mentioned that the sale was done with a verbal agreement, but they didn't transfer the ownership over to you?
> 
> I could be wrong but I'm almost certain here in Alberta, it's illegal to resell a horse without transferring ownership.
> 
> Do you know how he is doing now? I wonder if he has gone back to being a pushy horse seeing how he has the previous owners again.


He was not skinny AT ALL. He was working fit. When that pic was taken, he was being lunged every day but Sunday and ridden at least twice a week in lessons. 

This was him when we got him. He literally jiggled.



The previous owners never transferred his papers (he's registered half-Arab). It was just a verbal agreement between them and my friend that they had too many horses, so they were giving him to her since they couldn't deal with him and his issues. Then, she gave him to me as payment for helping her and helping retrain him (ended up being basically a feed lease...I paid for his feed, then worked off his stall fee by lunging her other horses, mucking all the stalls, and feeding at night). I went to feed one day and he was gone. I text my friend (who was in Vegas on vacation) and she was all "Oh yeah. They came and got him." like it was no big deal. I was devastated.

As for how he is now...last I heard (which was four or five years ago), he had gotten even fatter than he was when we first got him, his hocks had fused due to the arthritis, and he was basically unsound for riding except as a VERY light trail horse for someone who was VERY lightweight or a child. His owners did offer him to me for free on the day I was offered Aires, my current gelding. Hardest decision I've ever had to make. Do I take back my heart horse who taught me literally everything I know and is the horsey love of my life, but really isn't riding sound except as basically a kid's horse, or do I buy the untried, unproved, unknown 2yo stud colt who has tons of potential and can do anything I want to do? Never wished I could afford to have two horses more in my life than that moment. It boiled down to what I wanted to be able to do, and I wanted to be able to ride. So, I went with Aires. There have been soooooooooo many times I've wished I could have taken Dakota, too, though. :sad:


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## carshon

I am not sure if anyone has brought this up or not but a tree that is just a little too wide can be shimmed at the shoulders. I know you are green and this may be a bit beyond your experience level now but if someone showed you how it may work as a stop gap until you are convinced Fly is done filling out. 

At her age you may find that she will always be a bit downhill in her build. I am not critiquing her - but just saying at 5 or 6 any real growth is not likely to happen. Her shape will change throughout her life so no saddle is going to fit perfect for the rest of her life. Especially as your riding skills improve and you ride in more advanced areas that really require her to use her back end and topline (think Hill work here)

Good luck in your saddle hunt. I have had 2 horses that are hard to fit - the one was built like Fly but was 16.1 H and weighed 1300lbs in fit riding weight. He was slightly downhill and had HUGE bulky shoulders. I purchased a wide tree saddle and had to shim behind the shoulders.

my current horse is a high withered Tennessee Walker with a weak topline (we are working on strengthening it with exercise and hill work) She has hollows behind her shoulders from poor fitting saddles. I ride her in a wide tree with shimming at the shoulders


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> I am not sure if anyone has brought this up or not but a tree that is just a little too wide can be shimmed at the shoulders. I know you are green and this may be a bit beyond your experience level now but if someone showed you how it may work as a stop gap until you are convinced Fly is done filling out.
> 
> At her age you may find that she will always be a bit downhill in her build. I am not critiquing her - but just saying at 5 or 6 any real growth is not likely to happen. Her shape will change throughout her life so no saddle is going to fit perfect for the rest of her life. Especially as your riding skills improve and you ride in more advanced areas that really require her to use her back end and topline (think Hill work here)
> 
> Good luck in your saddle hunt. I have had 2 horses that are hard to fit - the one was built like Fly but was 16.1 H and weighed 1300lbs in fit riding weight. He was slightly downhill and had HUGE bulky shoulders. I purchased a wide tree saddle and had to shim behind the shoulders.
> 
> my current horse is a high withered Tennessee Walker with a weak topline (we are working on strengthening it with exercise and hill work) She has hollows behind her shoulders from poor fitting saddles. I ride her in a wide tree with shimming at the shoulders


Thanks. I have brought up shims on here but everyone said its a bad idea.

Its too bad too because her saddle now fits her perfect everywhere else.

Yes her form will always change, this is why my.massage lady has two saddled for each of her 6 horses, winter and summer.

Buying a new saddle right now and not having it fit does scare me.


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## Whinnie

The "fork"(or swell) of a saddle is not the same thing as the gullet. If you knew your terms better then sales people would be less likely to try to upsell you and push stuff on you. Using the wrong terms tells sales people you don't know much. Better get out that diagram and study.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Buying a new saddle right now and not having it fit does scare me.


Don't let it scare you. I've been through 4 (I think?) saddles this year, alone. I look at saddles almost as currency. I have been able to either trade up, or sell all my saddles out right. 

I started with 2 different saddles at the beginning of this year- I traded one for 30 days of training for CoCo. The other saddle quit fitting well once she lost some weight, so I sold it for the same amount I bought it for. I bought a different saddle that was about $150 more than what I had sold my previous one for. I got a deal on that saddle and underpaid by a lot. Once it stopped fitting well, I traded it and a saddle pad for yet another saddle that was a lot higher quality. Again- it stopped fitting well, so I sold it for almost double what I paid. With that money, and $300 extra, I was able to have a custom saddle made. 

Don't let it scare you one bit.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> My only concern is that, because Fly is going through a growth spurt right now and over the next couple months her withers and topline will be coming up to make her less downhill, Im worried that I buy a saddle right now and then in a couple months, the saddle no longer fits after her withers and topline come up some more. What are the chances of this happening?



Fly, at 5 1/2 years old, will not go through a significant growth spurt but with correct riding in a good conditioning program would build her topline and muscling. That's not going to happen with only 32 rides over winter. 


A 15 1/2 inch seat is really small for an adult man.....hubby is really thin and takes a 16 inch seat. I'm 5' 7", 125 lbs and ride a 15 inch seat western saddle. When you have the saddle fitter out, have her/him check you sitting in the saddle too since I suspect you are riding too small a seat, There should be about a hand's with in front of you and your butt should not be touching the cantle.


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## gottatrot

Listen, I'm not sure who is giving you the advice about your saddle. This photo looks as though someone is giving advice to place the saddle back similar to an english saddle. Western saddles are not designed to sit so far back. The tree points need to avoid restricting the shoulder movement when the leg is in the air. That doesn't mean you keep the entire saddle so far back. 

It is a very common problem for english riders to put their saddles too far forward. Therefore people start advising everyone to put their saddle back farther. But western saddles have leather and parts in front of the tree points, and are designed to appear to sit farther forward. Imagine your saddle as just the tree, and that's what you are placing on the horse's skeleton.









Do you see how far forward this western saddle is? But the scapula will remain clear. You don't need to clear all the leather, just the fixed tree points in front.








When your saddle is placed appropriately forward it does not sit low in the front, which also means it does not appear too wide. 









My personal opinion would be to fix small issues by finding the right pad for the saddle. If Fly is changing weight and shape, you can add or reduce padding or use shims temporarily. Chances are, buying a narrower tree might not fix things if the other angles are wrong.

Regardless, instead of rushing to buy a saddle due to a minor fit problem that is not an emergency fix, I'd suggest buying this book and reading it.
https://www.amazon.com/Western-Horses-Pain-Free-Back-Saddle-Fit-ebook/dp/B00XUYQV10
You will learn enough that you may not need a saddle fitter at all, and even if you decide your saddle isn't a great fit after reading it you will be able to find a saddle that fits right.

Also I'd suggest instead of bringing your horse to the store, try to find a store that has a trial period. At least around here you can bring up to three saddles home that you think are a close match and ride in them for a week. It really helps you find the small differences that make a saddle fit better or worse. You could bring Fly's saddle and use it to find the ones that might work.


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## StephaniHren

gottatrot said:


> Regardless, instead of rushing to buy a saddle due to a minor fit problem that is not an emergency fix, I'd suggest buying this book and reading it.


I'll be the first to come out and say that I know very little about western saddle fit. I grew up riding western as a kid, but by the time I was at a point where learning about saddle fit was part of my equine education, I'd already switched to English. I'm staying out of the discussion about whether or not Fly's saddle fits properly (especially since I'm not there to see it in person).

But I do think that Gottatrot's got a good point!

I think that shimming is only a temporary fix and that, if your saddle doesn't fit, you need a new one, but I also think that you should slow down and take some time to do some research. If you have any sort of doubt about whether or not your current saddle fits (Internet advice can only do so much and you've really only got one other person that you know in real life who says it doesn't fit, so who knows, it might be fine), then it might be in your interest to have a saddle fitter out anyway to have a professional evaluation of how good/bad your current saddle is.

Also, a trial period would be a must for me in this situation.



Tazzie said:


> Far as the saddle fitter debate, they are hard to find. Especially independent ones that aren't back by certain brands. For reference, this is the fitter I have coming out within the next couple of days. This is her price list: Saddle Tree Prices for flocking, fitting and common saddle repairs


Oh man, that saddle purchase consultation sounds awesome. Hoofpic, you'd learn a lot from something like the consultation that Tazzie's fitter does. You'd get 100% accurate tracings and photos to use on your search for a saddle, plus the ability to try out a bunch of different models and find one you like/one that fits Fly.


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## Hoofpic

Good news, i managed to score a Billy Cook hybrid saddle that is 1-2" shorter (front to back) than my saddle now and half inch narrower gullet. Its so light,at least 10lbs lighter than my current saddle. Even came with a mohair cinch and the whole thing looks brand new. Very modern looking.

The bad news is that this was the only saddle they had with a 6.5" gullet. Everything else was 7" and up. My current saddle has a 7" gullet.

Now tomorrow i need to track a saddle fitter.i have 7 days to trial it.

I was hoping to find at least a couple saddles to test out for the fitter to test.


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## tinaev

I hope the new saddle works out for you!

If it doesn't though, consider one of these: http://www.horse.com/item/western-fleece-wider-wither-pad/WIP06/ No, it will not solve all your problems long term but it could help provide some relief for Fly while you ride as you're are trying to find the saddle you are looking for. 

My horse is ridiculously hard to fit (sway back) so my version of a perfect saddle is one that fits good enough. Last year I bought a saddle that was slightly too wide to replace mine that was too narrow. I knew Rio's back shape was going to continue to change so I bought that $10 pad to fill in the space in the mean time. It worked well for us and now a year later that saddle that was slightly too wide fits pretty darn good and that pad is no longer needed.


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## Hoofpic

I got a call back, saddle fitter is coming out tomorrow afternoon or Saturday but will let me know tomorrow morning! 

She has 25 years exp and said I better be ready to take notes.

She is testing out both saddles. Her current one to let me know what she thinks and the new one as well.

$150cdn including her milage to come out. She is about 75km one way. Sounds fair.

I told her that price isnt the most imprtnt thing for me, I just want it done right because I dont want to be buying a new saddle in another 10 months because of the fitter missing certain things. 

Obviously the previous fitter didnt notice that the gullet was too wide on Flys current saddle and even my massage lady noticed it right away.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Fly, at 5 1/2 years old, will not go through a significant growth spurt but with correct riding in a good conditioning program would build her topline and muscling. That's not going to happen with only 32 rides over winter.
> 
> 
> A 15 1/2 inch seat is really small for an adult man.....hubby is really thin and takes a 16 inch seat. I'm 5' 7", 125 lbs and ride a 15 inch seat western saddle. When you have the saddle fitter out, have her/him check you sitting in the saddle too since I suspect you are riding too small a seat, There should be about a hand's with in front of you and your butt should not be touching the cantle.


I've tried 15, 15.5, 16 and 16.5 and I find 15.5 the most comfy. I can get the fitter to check but I know that with Fly, you can't put a 16" seat on her because she has such a short back. All the 16" saddles that I've seen are 28-30" minimum front to back and Fly can't have anything close to that. Her current saddle is 24" right on the dot front to back and you can see even that is pushing it. 

However the new saddle that I picked up tonight is only about 22 or 22.5" front to back.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> He was not skinny AT ALL. He was working fit. When that pic was taken, he was being lunged every day but Sunday and ridden at least twice a week in lessons.
> 
> This was him when we got him. He literally jiggled.
> 
> 
> 
> The previous owners never transferred his papers (he's registered half-Arab). It was just a verbal agreement between them and my friend that they had too many horses, so they were giving him to her since they couldn't deal with him and his issues. Then, she gave him to me as payment for helping her and helping retrain him (ended up being basically a feed lease...I paid for his feed, then worked off his stall fee by lunging her other horses, mucking all the stalls, and feeding at night). I went to feed one day and he was gone. I text my friend (who was in Vegas on vacation) and she was all "Oh yeah. They came and got him." like it was no big deal. I was devastated.
> 
> As for how he is now...last I heard (which was four or five years ago), he had gotten even fatter than he was when we first got him, his hocks had fused due to the arthritis, and he was basically unsound for riding except as a VERY light trail horse for someone who was VERY lightweight or a child. His owners did offer him to me for free on the day I was offered Aires, my current gelding. Hardest decision I've ever had to make. Do I take back my heart horse who taught me literally everything I know and is the horsey love of my life, but really isn't riding sound except as basically a kid's horse, or do I buy the untried, unproved, unknown 2yo stud colt who has tons of potential and can do anything I want to do? Never wished I could afford to have two horses more in my life than that moment. It boiled down to what I wanted to be able to do, and I wanted to be able to ride. So, I went with Aires. There have been soooooooooo many times I've wished I could have taken Dakota, too, though. :sad:


Sorry to hear that, I very much feel for you. Poor boy has been through a lot, too bad he wasn't in better hands that the other owners. It sounds like the other owners didn't take very good care of him. I feel bad for him.

That would have been an incredibly tough decision for me as well. If you took back Dakota, he would pretty much be a field horse (unless you got your kids to ride him).

Now when I look again at the pics, he looks very fit and a nice shiny coat.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Don't let it scare you. I've been through 4 (I think?) saddles this year, alone. I look at saddles almost as currency. I have been able to either trade up, or sell all my saddles out right.
> 
> I started with 2 different saddles at the beginning of this year- I traded one for 30 days of training for CoCo. The other saddle quit fitting well once she lost some weight, so I sold it for the same amount I bought it for. I bought a different saddle that was about $150 more than what I had sold my previous one for. I got a deal on that saddle and underpaid by a lot. Once it stopped fitting well, I traded it and a saddle pad for yet another saddle that was a lot higher quality. Again- it stopped fitting well, so I sold it for almost double what I paid. With that money, and $300 extra, I was able to have a custom saddle made.
> 
> Don't let it scare you one bit.


Isn't it hard on a horse though using so many saddles and switching it up? Because horses get used to their gear, especially bits and bridles and halters. 

How are you getting your saddles so cheap? Where are you getting them? Locally?


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Listen, I'm not sure who is giving you the advice about your saddle. This photo looks as though someone is giving advice to place the saddle back similar to an english saddle. Western saddles are not designed to sit so far back. The tree points need to avoid restricting the shoulder movement when the leg is in the air. That doesn't mean you keep the entire saddle so far back.
> 
> It is a very common problem for english riders to put their saddles too far forward. Therefore people start advising everyone to put their saddle back farther. But western saddles have leather and parts in front of the tree points, and are designed to appear to sit farther forward. Imagine your saddle as just the tree, and that's what you are placing on the horse's skeleton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you see how far forward this western saddle is? But the scapula will remain clear. You don't need to clear all the leather, just the fixed tree points in front.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When your saddle is placed appropriately forward it does not sit low in the front, which also means it does not appear too wide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My personal opinion would be to fix small issues by finding the right pad for the saddle. If Fly is changing weight and shape, you can add or reduce padding or use shims temporarily. Chances are, buying a narrower tree might not fix things if the other angles are wrong.
> 
> Regardless, instead of rushing to buy a saddle due to a minor fit problem that is not an emergency fix, I'd suggest buying this book and reading it.
> https://www.amazon.com/Western-Horses-Pain-Free-Back-Saddle-Fit-ebook/dp/B00XUYQV10
> You will learn enough that you may not need a saddle fitter at all, and even if you decide your saddle isn't a great fit after reading it you will be able to find a saddle that fits right.
> 
> Also I'd suggest instead of bringing your horse to the store, try to find a store that has a trial period. At least around here you can bring up to three saddles home that you think are a close match and ride in them for a week. It really helps you find the small differences that make a saddle fit better or worse. You could bring Fly's saddle and use it to find the ones that might work.


Thanks, I will see if I can order that book.

These are the most updated pics from Monday - where my massage lady would like the saddle to be when I ride Fly. 


















My pad that I currently have, I really want to try avoid buying a new one just because this Diamond one is a good one and I paid so much for it I know 30" pads are the standard and I paid a lot for a 3/4 inch 28" pad.


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## natisha

Prairie said:


> Personally, after I determined that a saddle appears to be a good fit for the horse, I still want to ride in it long enough to get the horse a little sweaty so I can look at the sweat marks---dry marks in the wrong areas or excess sweat where there should be good airflow are a dead giveaway that the saddle does not fit.
> 
> 
> It the tack shop owner/ saddle fitter is knowledgeable, that person should be able to look at Fly and determine which of their saddles would be good possibilities to fit her. If the shop is only 15 minutes away, why not just walk Fly there if you don't want to pay for someone to trailer her there?


 I've bought new saddles & had to have a bed sheet between the saddle & anything else & towels under any straps that would be tightened. Any marks & it was considered used. Used saddles were different, much more lenient.

A 15 minute drive could be a long walk.


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## Hoofpic

You know after picking up the Billy Cook hybrid saddle last night, (crossing fingers, it fits Fly!), if it does, then I feel a bit ripped off on the current saddle seeing how this Billy Cook is much newer, is a better brand (Billy Cook vs Rocky Mountain Saddles), and it even comes with a Billy Cook mohair cinch.

Have any of you heard of Rocky Mountain saddles before?

I asked the lady last night if this saddle was an endurance and she said it's a hybrid. I've never heard of it. I will post pictures for you guys when I have the fitter out (either today or tomorrow) so you can see how it looks and fits on Fly. 

I'm very excited about this saddle. I will be just ecstatic if it is a good fit! I'm mostly excited because it's so light, at least 10-15lbs light than my current saddle and my current one is 40lbs at most.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Isn't it hard on a horse though using so many saddles and switching it up? Because horses get used to their gear, especially bits and bridles and halters.
> 
> How are you getting your saddles so cheap? Where are you getting them? Locally?


What's hard on a horse is tack that doesn't work. My mare had a lot of changes to her body this past year. I had to change my saddles as she changed. 

I also have three different bridles that I use. I use them all for different things. It's not hard on her at all.

Just because I've been swapping saddles doesn't mean they are cheap. I saved up a lot of money initially and bought a nice used saddle, but with saddles- they tend to hold their value well. I looked at it as an investment, and it's continued to grow for me. The saddle I'm having made right now cost more than my horse did. 

I've gotten my saddles from local tack stores, local shows and Facebook believe it or not.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> What's hard on a horse is tack that doesn't work. My mare had a lot of changes to her body this past year. I had to change my saddles as she changed.
> 
> I also have three different bridles that I use. I use them all for different things. It's not hard on her at all.
> 
> Just because I've been swapping saddles doesn't mean they are cheap. I saved up a lot of money initially and bought a nice used saddle, but with saddles- they tend to hold their value well. I looked at it as an investment, and it's continued to grow for me. The saddle I'm having made right now cost more than my horse did.
> 
> I've gotten my saddles from local tack stores, local shows and Facebook believe it or not.


I think what a lot of people fail to understand is when a horse changes form, they could need new tack, but many just stick with what they got and completely overlook the form. Then when their horse is neglecting or not responding to their ques as they would like, they blame the horse for being bad. 

For instance, the lesson saddles at my barn. They've most likely been ridden in the same saddles and pads for many years and there are a couple saddles that are used on multiple horses. There is no way that multiple horses can have the exact same composition and form. 

Now, I'm sure when you run a riding school barn, that budget is a big part is not being able to have as many saddles as you would like, so often schools horses have to share saddles.

Did you buy your used saddles from the shop or privately?

I think location has a big part to do with it. I'm not sure how big the horse industry is in Indiana but as you already know it's huge here in Alberta, so tack shops charge a fortune for any tack. I'd imagine their markup is huge, probably 100% profit Im sure, probably more on used ones.

I will be honest, if my new saddle does in fact fit Fly, I would rather trade in my old one to the tack shop (where I got my new one) or whomever will give the most money. I know I won't get as much as a private sale, but seeing how much of a hassle it was to sell my "used once for 10mins" Myler D-ring bit, I would rather take a bit of a loss just to write it off sooner, than have it sit at the barn for god knows how long.

I know it's hard to gauge how much I would get, but seeing how I paid $700cdn for it in January of this year, I would think $300 would be the highest I would get offered from a shop. Chances are that they can probably sell it for $700 despite being 10 months older.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> You know after picking up the Billy Cook hybrid saddle last night, (crossing fingers, it fits Fly!), if it does, then I feel a bit ripped off on the current saddle seeing how this Billy Cook is much newer, is a better brand (Billy Cook vs Rocky Mountain Saddles), and it even comes with a Billy Cook mohair cinch..


Slow your roll, Billy Cook may or may not be a better saddle. Depends is it Billy Cook made in Sulphur, Oklahoma. Or a Billy Cook made in Greenville, Tx.? There is absolutely nothing wrong with Rocky Mountain, perfectly serviceable, solid saddles.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Did you buy your used saddles from the shop or privately?
> 
> I think location has a big part to do with it. I'm not sure how big the horse industry is in Indiana but as you already it's massive here in Alberta, so tack shops charge a fortune for any tack. I'd imagine their markup is huge, probably 100% profit Im sure, probably more on used ones.


I got one used saddle from a local tack shop. I got another used one from a person at a show, and the last used one I got was from a person selling in a Facebook group.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Oh man, that saddle purchase consultation sounds awesome. Hoofpic, you'd learn a lot from something like the consultation that Tazzie's fitter does. You'd get 100% accurate tracings and photos to use on your search for a saddle, plus the ability to try out a bunch of different models and find one you like/one that fits Fly.


I would love to but it was hard enough just to get a hold of a single fitter in my area and thankfully I got one call back yesterday. One. 

From my research, in my area there are a bunch of fitters but most (if not all) are saddle makers and they only want to help you if you buy a custom saddle from them. I remember talking to one last Fall and I was going to have her out but she was extremely biased and kept pushing her brand.

I was actually considering calling my chiro to see if she would help me. I know she knows a lot about fitting but she is so busy that she's incredibly hard to get a hold of and chances of her being able to come out within a week is minimal.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I got one used saddle from a local tack shop. I got another used one from a person at a show, and the last used one I got was from a person selling in a Facebook group.


Oh okay I see. I am joined on many groups on Facebook but they are such a hit or miss and no refund policy if the saddle doesn't fit. 

I was thinking, do you think by any chance that the previous saddle fitter that I used on Fly's current saddle, that the saddle wasn't too wide around the tree at the time she came out in January? Maybe Fly's form has changed since then?

Because I do know that, at the time, I didn't have a pad yet so she just used the saddle on top of her gel pad to do the test.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I was thinking, do you think by any chance that the previous saddle fitter that I used on Fly's current saddle, that the saddle wasn't too wide around the tree at the time she came out in January? Maybe Fly's form has changed since then?


I don't know since I never saw it. 

If you really, really want to know...I would see if you have any pictures of Fly from around the time you got the saddle and compare her conformation then to how it is now.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I don't know since I never saw it.
> 
> If you really, really want to know...I would see if you have any pictures of Fly from around the time you got the saddle and compare her conformation then to how it is now.


Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures from what I know of, but I will check again.

You said that you aren't a fan of the impression pad eh?


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures from what I know of, but I will check again.
> 
> You said that you aren't a fan of the impression pad eh?


Not really. There are a lot simpler ways to tell saddle fit. I think the pad is just another way to make more money.


----------



## Whinnie

Just curious, but when you are measuring the (western) saddle, "front to back", where are the points you are measuring to and from? Does it include the skirts? Are you measuring down the center from the top, or underneath or along the side? When I had western saddles MANY years ago, the only measurements used that I was familiar with was the gullet and seat, so I am just curious.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Isn't it hard on a horse though using so many saddles and switching it up? Because horses get used to their gear, especially bits and bridles and halters.
> 
> How are you getting your saddles so cheap? Where are you getting them? Locally?


 
A horse really doesn't care what tack you're using as long as it fits and is comfortable. I ride our mare both English and western and all she cares about is that whatever we'll be doing will be fun and interesting. 


It's no different than people changing their clothing---as longs as it fits, it's NBD!


Also, there's a lot more to saddle fitting than the gullet----you need to consider the angle of the bars, clearance along the spine, total length of saddle to be sure it's not rubbing, quality of the workmanship, etc. In saddles, you get what you pay for!


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> Just curious, but when you are measuring the (western) saddle, "front to back", where are the points you are measuring to and from? Does it include the skirts? Are you measuring down the center from the top, or underneath or along the side? When I had western saddles MANY years ago, the only measurements used that I was familiar with was the gullet and seat, so I am just curious.


Very front of the saddle to very back. The longest points. So if the longest points are in the middle, I measure in the middle. I know it's not ideal but because Fly has such a short back, some of these saddles have squared corners at the very back and I much prefer short rounded ones because less chance of it rubbing against Flys hip.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Not really. There are a lot simpler ways to tell saddle fit. I think the pad is just another way to make more money.


ANd that fitter kept telling me that the pad is by far the best way to do saddle fitting. Pillow cases don't work etc etc.


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## Whinnie

Prairie said:


> A horse really doesn't care what tack you're using as long as it fits and is comfortable. I ride our mare both English and western and all she cares about is that whatever we'll be doing will be fun and interesting.
> 
> 
> It's no different than people changing their clothing---as longs as it fits, it's NBD!


I was going to say the same thing.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Isn't it hard on a horse though using so many saddles and switching it up? Because horses get used to their gear, especially bits and bridles and halters.


 My horse gets ridden in at least 3 different saddles; my Wade, my wife's dressage saddle, and my stepdaughter's ridiculously cute some sort of English saddle. I ride him in a half-breed bit, with a bosalita if I am in the 2 rein. I also ride him in a plain ol snaffle, a jointed curb, a bosal, and my wife rides him a French link snaffle. So no a horse doesn't really care, as long as it fits and is properly adjusted.


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## Hoofpic

What the heck is this? Has anyone seen this? Just came out.

Wouldn't that be extremely painful for a horse?


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> A horse really doesn't care what tack you're using as long as it fits and is comfortable. I ride our mare both English and western and all she cares about is that whatever we'll be doing will be fun and interesting.
> 
> 
> It's no different than people changing their clothing---as longs as it fits, it's NBD!


I see, I didn't know this. I always thought a horse gets used to what they are worked in.



> Also, there's a lot more to saddle fitting than the gullet----you need to consider the angle of the bars, clearance along the spine, total length of saddle to be sure it's not rubbing, quality of the workmanship, etc. In saddles, you get what you pay for!


Well unfortunately out of all those you list, I only know how to check for broken/crooked tree and measure the length of the saddle and gullet. The good news is that the fitter will assess the saddle for me as well and look it over.

When I did a trace of Fly's withers yesterday with the rubber stencil, and I put it right in the spot under the saddle where the massage lady said it was too wide, I immediately saw a noticable gap between the stencil and the inner lining of the saddle.

When I was at the tack shop last night, I put this stencil in the same spot under the new saddle I was testing and there was still a gap but not nearly as big. Infact there was very little of a gap, so I decided to take it home to try out.

I will admit, I got very lucky with my current saddle. The fact I was really confident it would fit Fly and I took it home and it did aside from the gullet being too wide. It;s too bad because this saddle fits her so well.

But I am very confident that this new saddle will fit her better. I can't wait to find out.


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## Prairie

A saddle either fits or it doesn't. There is no "The fact I was really confident it would fit Fly and I took it home and it did aside from the gullet being too wide. It;s too bad because this saddle fits her so well." If it's too wide, then it does NOT fit! Do you even know what the bars of a saddle are? If you don't, then you don't know if the saddle even fits her at all.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> What the heck is this? Has anyone seen this? Just came out.
> 
> Wouldn't that be extremely painful for a horse?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnFFPw4k1us


 
There are lots of other threads explaining this. And, if you were able to find this, you can research about it on the net.


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## Hoofpic

I have a dumb question. I'm going to get TWO saddle fitters out (at different times obviously). Would this be a good idea or a waste of money?

I'm really confident that I have found two really qualified and reputable fitters. Neither have a massage background. I was talking with one of the fitters and she mentioned how fitters who do just fitting and have their certification see things from a different perspective than someone who does mainly massage and getting into fitting. I thought that was interesting.


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## Prairie

What you posted is a Big Lick Tennessee Walker who is soredby chemicals and shod with a heavy package that affects the gaits of thehorse. The soring is illegal but stillhappens. This is method of shoeing isoutlawed in Canada.


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## Prairie

Why would you get 2 saddle fitters out? That's a waste of money, assuming the one you choose is reputable and knows how to fit a saddle,


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Why would you get 2 saddle fitters out? That's a waste of money, assuming the one you choose is reputable and knows how to fit a saddle,


Well I guess I will see how today goes (one fitter is coming out).

It's just after what happened with the previous fitter, I am wanting second opinions now. So I;m wanting to I guess test out a couple fitters and see who I prefer out of the two. Afterall, there is a very good chance that I will have to have a fitter come out more than once. Unless I hit the jackpot again and the new saddle fits Fly like a glove like her current saddle did. 

If the fitter today says that the new saddle doesn't fit then I will bring it back ASAP and shop for a new one. Find a new one and then have the 2nd fitter out to assess that one.

The second fitter that I've been talking to is $30 cheaper (less travel fee costs), but again, price isnt the most important thing for me, the person itself is and them doing the job right.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> What you posted is a Big Lick Tennessee Walker who is soredby chemicals and shod with a heavy package that affects the gaits of thehorse. The soring is illegal but stillhappens. This is method of shoeing isoutlawed in Canada.


Thanks. I'm guessing horses like that will never be the same again? Why mess with the gaits of a horse? This can't be healthy for them.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Well I guess I will see how today goes (one fitter is coming out).
> 
> It's just after what happened with the previous fitter, I am wanting second opinions now. So I;m wanting to I guess test out a couple fitters and see who I prefer out of the two. Afterall, there is a very good chance that I will have to have a fitter come out more than once. Unless I hit the jackpot again and the new saddle fits Fly like a glove like her current saddle did.
> 
> If the fitter today says that the new saddle doesn't fit then I will bring it back ASAP and shop for a new one. Find a new one and then have the 2nd fitter out to assess that one.
> 
> The second fitter that I've been talking to is $30 cheaper (less travel fee costs), but again, price isnt the most important thing for me, the person itself is and them doing the job right.


What will you do if both saddle fitters tell you something different? Who will you listen to?


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> What will you do if both saddle fitters tell you something different? Who will you listen to?


I'm not sure, good question.

Let me have the first one come out today. I will take notes of everything she says, then I will post pics of the new saddle on Fly for you guys to see and get a general look.

Then go from there.

The one coming out this afternoon fits Western saddles. The other one that I've been talking to, mostly does English but she said she knows Western as well. Is it a red flag that the other fitter mostly fits English?


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## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I'm guessing horses like that will never be the same again? Why mess with the gaits of a horse? This can't be healthy for them.



It depends on how long the horse was padded and how extreme the soring was. Our TWH gelding was trained as a Big Lick show horse and sold for big bucks for the breed due to his potential. Once he recovered from starvation and the holes in his training were filled, he's been an amazingly versatile mount just ridden barefoot.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic;9508826........
Unless I hit the jackpot again and the new saddle fits Fly like a glove like her current saddle did. [/QUOTE said:


> You saddle NEVER fit fly correctly to begin with! Why is this so hard for you to understand?


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## 6gun Kid

Prairie said:


> Once he recovered from starvation and the holes in his training were filled, he's been an amazingly versatile mount just ridden barefoot.


 Glad he recovered


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## Hoofpic

Pet peeve: people who are late and dont bother calling to let me know. I have to call them.

Im sure Fly would rather not stand here for an extra half hour waiting.


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## Hoofpic

I'm sorry but if you are this late, I should get a discount.

I mean if I was late showing up 30 plus minutes she's not going to say "its okay, dont sweat it", I get billed extra time because I am taking up her time by making her wait.


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## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> These are the most updated pics from Monday - where my massage lady would like the saddle to be when I ride Fly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My pad that I currently have, I really want to try avoid buying a new one just because this Diamond one is a good one and I paid so much for it I know 30" pads are the standard and I paid a lot for a 3/4 inch 28" pad.


It will be interesting to see what the saddle fitter says. In my opinion the massage lady is telling you to put the saddle too far back, and this is leading you to buy a new saddle.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for not wanting to buy another pad since I've needed to help small changes in horses' backs by buying a few pads. Some that have the ability to add shims can cost $200 or even more. But sometimes this is a better solution than buying a new saddle.


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## Hoofpic

Well i got good news and bad news.

Good news: the new saddle is a substantial better fit than the old saddle. I even rode in it and I could feel a noticable better feel. Fitter was surprised and said i picked a great choice and for the price.

She said my current classin equine cinch is 4" too long and the Billy Cook mohair that came with the new saddle happened to be 4" smaller and she got me to do it up and it fit Fly perfect. All the drings are in the correct spot.

She said that my classic equine was blocking a vein

Bad news: ill need to get a new pad with removable pockets.

No matter what saddle I put on her, because she is downhill, I will need a pad with removable pockets to prevent the saddle for going forward when I ride her. With the saddle on her, its perfect, lots of space to slide your hand at the front beteeen the pad and saddle. She said to get a pad with removable pockets and resell my old one with the saddle.

Ill go more in detail later.

I forgot to take pics sorry, will tomorrow with the saddle on her.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> It will be interesting to see what the saddle fitter says. In my opinion the massage lady is telling you to put the saddle too far back, and this is leading you to buy a new saddle.
> 
> I don't have a lot of sympathy for not wanting to buy another pad since I've needed to help small changes in horses' backs by buying a few pads. Some that have the ability to add shims can cost $200 or even more. But sometimes this is a better solution than buying a new saddle.


The saddler fitter taught me a lot today in just that 1.5 hours! she only charged me for one hour at $75 because she was late, plus $75 in gas for 80km each way. Total $150cdn for 1.5 hours. I think thats fair. What do you guys thinnk? Expensive?

If I have to wait 45mins for you, then you need to not charge me for all the time you are with me.

Wow does this lady ever know a lot. It was a night and day different from the fitter I used in January of this year.

First, she said that Fly won't grow anymore. What I see right now is what she will be. She may get wider but not taller. The massage lady said different when she was here on Monday, she said that Fly is still growing and may have a couple more growth spurts in her

Tonight's fitter does do custom saddles but she didn't bring any out because she didnt want me to think that she was just pushing her product (and I respect her for that).

She saw Fly's form and said that she will always be downhill, it's just how much downhill throughout her life. It's just her form. She said that a cowhorse saddle would be perfect for her but it would have to be custom and they are $3000. Yikes. No thank you.

She first told me to put Fly's current saddle on her without a pad. She immediately said its a bad fit. She turned the pad unside down and showed me where the most pressure is being applied. She also did the same with her pad. 

She showed me that (when riding Fly), the most pressure is being applied to the withers and that is from the saddle leaning forward.

She said Fly has a bridge where the gullet is and she would like to see this filled because there is not enough pressure applied to this spot from the saddle when sitting on her.

You guys have mentioned to me that I should go learn from a saddle maker for a day. Well I think it would be amazing to spend a day with this lady. Only thing is, the cost as she would obviously charge me. The amount of information that I learned from her in just 1.5 hours is amazing.

So after she showed me where the current saddle is putting too much pressure on Fly, she said that's it's just not a good saddle fit for her. 
so then she gets me to put on the new saddle.

After she talked to me about gullets and why her current saddle doesn't fit Fly, I was now second guessing on whether or not the saddle that I picked up last night was a good fit.

Put it on her without the pad and she was surprised and she said it's actually a really good fit and a night and day improvement over the old one. She LOVED the saddle! She said it fits her so good and with a new pad would be more than suitable for her without any discomfort anywhere. She loved how lightweight it was and said I made a great choice. 

She asked me how much I paid for it and I told her and she said for the condition it's in, and the fact she would recommend the saddle as definitely one that I could ride Fly in without her having an discomfort, that it was a good price. Not smokin hot but a good deal. I told her I bought it used, she thought it was brand new because of the condition.

It worked in my price range. Obviously I would have loved to find another $700 saddle, but what can you do. 

She said my Classic Equine mohair cinch won't work on Fly because it's 4" too long. She said she would use the one that came with it, even though Billy Cook is not as good as Classic Equine. I was disappointed when she told me that the Billy Cook one fits her better.

So I saddled Fly up and she told me to ride to see if the saddle and cinch moves after when I finish. It didn't.

She said that I would have a much easier time keeping straight and back straight in the new saddle than the old because of the way the new seat was designed, there is no dip at the front of the seat.

As soon as I got on, the difference in the seat compared to the old saddle was dramatic. I couldn't believe it. Wow. The seat (even though still only a 15.5) felt a lot larger than that. 

She said the only thing is that she would get a pad with removable pockets. First try removing all the pockets but the one where the gullet is, then go from there. She said basically I need to have pockets so that when I sit on Fly, the pad doesn't dip at the front. 

So now onto the search for a new 28" 3/4 pad. Will have to be a special order.

In the meantime I will have to keep using my Diamond pad. That's not going to be too bad is it?

She said that getting a new pad for the old saddle won't be good enouh because the new saddle is dramatically better and fits Fly whereas the old one doesn't


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## Hoofpic




----------



## gottatrot

That's great, it will make a big difference having a saddle that fits well for both you and your horse.

Have you looked into Endurance pads? They make them shorter because so many endurance riders are on short backed Arabs. Standard size is usually 28". Riding Warehouse has lots of varieties.
Many also are shimmable since so many people ride Treeless. 
Diamond Wool Endurance Round Saddle Pad w/ Shims 28x33

It's common to need to shim with a downhill horse. My mare Halla is also built downhill so I ride her in a Thinline pad with shims in the front. It is very difficult to balance if the horse and saddle are going downhill. I'm guessing you'll notice that it is much easier to ride, and your horse will be able to move more freely if you're not putting her down on the forehand.

If you really like your cinch you could just buy one in the same brand that is shorter. Part of owning horses is understanding how often you need to buy and sell tack. It's a yearly thing for me to have a selling session on Ebay where I clear out old stuff that is no longer useful to free up cash for new things I need.


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## Hoofpic

I love the weight, it's no more than 18-20lbs. My old saddle was about 35-40lbs. I have a lesson tomorrow afternoon, do you guys think I should ride in it? Even though I don't have a new pad yet and I'm still on the 7 day trial period. 

See how the front part of the seat comes up? My old seat didn't do it. The fitter said it should really help me in the seat in terms of not faulting forward accidentally and because I'm tall riding a smaller horse, it will only benefit me.

I just need to put my stirrups on it as the ones that came with it are way too small. If I keep this saddle, do you think I should twist the stirrups on it like I did my previous? Is it even possible on this saddle?

But my fitter tonight said that no question this is miles better than the previous and she watched me ride Fly at a walk in it and said that my back is noticably more balanced in it. SHe said no question she would keep it but it's up to me.

My trainer knew that the fitter was out tonight, so I'm sure she is going to notice the new saddle tomorrow and she will ask why I got it.

PS - Yes I cover my saddle with a tarp when I don't use it.


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## jenkat86

Thumbs up, @hoofpic I would like your post but I can't figure it out on mobile.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> That's great, it will make a big difference having a saddle that fits well for both you and your horse.
> 
> Have you looked into Endurance pads? They make them shorter because so many endurance riders are on short backed Arabs. Standard size is usually 28". Riding Warehouse has lots of varieties.
> Many also are shimmable since so many people ride Treeless.
> Diamond Wool Endurance Round Saddle Pad w/ Shims 28x33


Thanks, I can consider buying online but what if it's not a good fit on Fly? I can't return it.

So these pads with removable pockets are basically shims?

What's the difference between an endurance pad and a regular contour?



> It's common to need to shim with a downhill horse. My mare Halla is also built downhill so I ride her in a Thinline pad with shims in the front. It is very difficult to balance if the horse and saddle are going downhill. I'm guessing you'll notice that it is much easier to ride, and your horse will be able to move more freely if you're not putting her down on the forehand.


I think I will notice a big difference as well. I already noticed a huge difference getting in the new saddle vs the old one. It was 1000 times more comfortable, I had more space in the front and back of my waist. I was able to lean back more naturally. It just felt awesome! I feel that a lot of my minor balance issues can be assisted with this new saddle and a new pad.



> If you really like your cinch you could just buy one in the same brand that is shorter. Part of owning horses is understanding how often you need to buy and sell tack. It's a yearly thing for me to have a selling session on Ebay where I clear out old stuff that is no longer useful to free up cash for new things I need.


I could but Classic Equine is expensive. I paid $175cdn for mine just 9 months ago. Are cinches even resellable? I'm already not too happy about having to buy a new saddle, AND then a new pad uhhh. But I know it's worth it in the long run. 

If I didn't pay $300 for my Diamond pad, then it would be a lot easier to swallow.

My fitter said that regardless of the brand, that cinches and pads are like underwear, they will need to be replaced as they wear and that she suggests replacing cinches and pads every 1.5-2 years. I thought that sounded a bit too soon. You can't be telling me that people who ride in 5 star pads are replacing them every 1.5-2 years.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Thumbs up, @hoofpic I would like your post but I can't figure it out on mobile.


Its okay, I just want to thank all of you for convincing me to get a new saddle ASAP and not wait until the Spring. 

Even if I am riding Fly less in the winter, it's still best to get her in a more suitable saddle now than later. No need to cause her anymore discomfort if I can avoid it.

My fitter said to not use the old saddle again on her because it's not a good fit at all on her.

So that made me question, how did the fitter from January say that the saddle was such a good perfect fit? I just don't get it. Obviously I am still very upset about it all and will not use her again. Can I have my $75 back please?


----------



## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> Are cinches even resellable? I'm already not too happy about having to buy a new saddle, AND then a new pad uhhh. But I know it's worth it in the long run.
> 
> If I didn't pay $300 for my Diamond pad, then it would be a lot easier to swallow.
> 
> My fitter said that regardless of the brand, that cinches and pads are like underwear, they will need to be replaced as they wear and that she suggests replacing cinches and pads every 1.5-2 years. I thought that sounded a bit too soon. You can't be telling me that people who ride in 5 star pads are replacing them every 1.5-2 years.


Cheap pads wear out quickly but expensive ones last for years. People resell expensive pads like Skito pads even after they are a few years old, and they expect to get at least half of what they paid originally. Wool felt pads? I don't know if they ever wear out. I've known people who use them for 20 years. 

You can definitely resell an expensive cinch, and if it's that new and in good shape you only need to discount it a little. It depends on if you have rusty hardware and if you can get it clean. I've often sold used cinches for about 3/4 what I paid for them. Some I've sold for more than I paid if I got a good deal in the first place. I've also sold saddles for more than I paid, and used saddle pads in good condition for almost the full price. 

Like your Diamond pad for instance - if you sell if with your saddle, you won't be able to ask as much. If you sell it separately, you could ask $225 or $250 for it. People like me will buy a used pad in good condition rather than paying full price plus shipping for a new one. 

Once you've bought a bunch of tack, you can resell and swap it out for things you need. So even if your horse changes and you need different things, it's never as much as the original investment. 

I am not sure about your original saddle fitter, but horses' backs change a lot sometimes. It's entirely possible your saddle fit perfectly and now it doesn't. It's one reason why I've owned many saddles for the same horses. The same horse fat or thin may need an entirely different tree width.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I have a lesson tomorrow afternoon, do you guys think I should ride in it?


I definitely think that you should ride in it in your lesson tomorrow afternoon. You've got it on trial, might as well ride in it for a couple days to make sure you're comfortable in it at all gaits. Plus you heard the fitter, you shouldn't be using your old one because it doesn't fit Fly very well and it's probably causing her discomfort!

Also, I know this doesn't matter, but I just want to say that I think that new saddle is darn good looking. I love the color contrast and think that it's just very handsome, plus you've got to appreciate something that's lightweight.



gottatrot said:


> Have you looked into Endurance pads? They make them shorter because so many endurance riders are on short backed Arabs. Standard size is usually 28". Riding Warehouse has lots of varieties.
> Many also are shimmable since so many people ride Treeless.
> Diamond Wool Endurance Round Saddle Pad w/ Shims 28x33


These shimmable endurance pads are cool and could be exactly what you're looking for. Also, if it doesn't fit Riding Warehouse has free returns for up to a year. Pads aren't something I'd be adverse to ordering without seeing them in person, especially from a company that has a good return policy.



Hoofpic said:


> Are cinches even resellable?


EVERYTHING IS RESELLABLE. All you need is a little effort and a Facebook/Ebay account.



Hoofpic said:


> So that made me question, how did the fitter from January say that the saddle was such a good perfect fit? I just don't get it. Obviously I am still very upset about it all and will not use her again. Can I have my $75 back please?


This is one of those things that you just chalk up to a learning experience. And then you go and write a disappointed Yelp/Google review for her. EDIT: Or Gottatrot might be right, it might have fit originally.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I definitely think that you should ride in it in your lesson tomorrow afternoon. You've got it on trial, might as well ride in it for a couple days to make sure you're comfortable in it at all gaits. Plus you heard the fitter, you shouldn't be using your old one because it doesn't fit Fly very well and it's probably causing her discomfort!


I won't be using the old saddle again, it's retired for good, Fly will never see it on her back again.



> Also, I know this doesn't matter, but I just want to say that I think that new saddle is darn good looking. I love the color contrast and think that it's just very handsome, plus you've got to appreciate something that's lightweight.


I love the look of it as well, it's got a nice contrast. Not that I really care for how a saddle looks, (fit is still the #1 thing for me), but it's nice to appreciate a nice looking saddle. I don't think my old saddle looked that bad, what do you think? Did it suit Fly? Not really. ANd I'm sure if someone else owned her like a younger girl, they would saddle her in a nice english saddle or a pink western with lots of bling.

I can't tell you how nice it is to have a super light weight saddle. It almost feels like an English saddle, it's really light, even the fitter was surprised. And it's a Billy Cook. I heard they are a good brand. They are not a Tucker or Vic Bennet, but they are still a very good brand.













> These shimmable endurance pads are cool and could be exactly what you're looking for. Also, if it doesn't fit Riding Warehouse has free returns for up to a year. Pads aren't something I'd be adverse to ordering without seeing them in person, especially from a company that has a good return policy.


So these pads with removable pockets are basically shims? I know you guys were against me using shims on Fly, but it's okay now...is that because I now have a saddle that fits her?



> EVERYTHING IS RESELLABLE. All you need is a little effort and a Facebook/Ebay account.


But I also value time and don't like stuff taking up space. Remember how long it took me to resell my 10min old Myler D-ring bit?



> This is one of those things that you just chalk up to a learning experience. And then you go and write a disappointed Yelp/Google review for her. EDIT: Or Gottatrot might be right, it might have fit originally.


True and yes it might have fit originally, who knows maybe Fly's form did change that much since February of this year. But still, even tonight talking with the fitter tonight was a very different experience than from what I remember from the fitter in February. The one tonight just seemed that much more knowledgeable. She educated me a whole lot more, explained things to me and she didn't rely on a $300 impression pad to do the test.

I really liked her showing me how to tell where the saddle and pad applies the most pressure on her by flipping the saddle and pad upside down and looking.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I don't think my old saddle looked that bad, what do you think?


Ehhhh, I don't think it was anything special in the looks department. Not like the new one, at least. Excited to see pictures of it on Fly, I bet it looks pretty stunning on her, too.



Hoofpic said:


> So these pads with removable pockets are basically shims? I know you guys were against me using shims on Fly, but it's okay now...is that because I now have a saddle that fits her?


The thing about shims is that it's okay to use them to make a good fit better, but you should never be using them to try to make a saddle that doesn't fit work out. Now that you've got something that fits well, shims to make up for conformation problems (the high butt) are totally fair game.



Hoofpic said:


> But I also value time and don't like stuff taking up space.


You can complain about losing money or you can complain about wasting time, you can't complain about both. Personally, if I spent that much on a cinch I'd be selling it for as much as possible to get fair return on it.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Ehhhh, I don't think it was anything special in the looks department. Not like the new one, at least. Excited to see pictures of it on Fly, I bet it looks pretty stunning on her, too.


I do agree that a sharp look saddle can look great on a horse. You can really tailor your saddle to your horse.



> The thing about shims is that it's okay to use them to make a good fit better, but you should never be using them to try to make a saddle that doesn't fit work out. Now that you've got something that fits well, shims to make up for conformation problems (the high butt) are totally fair game.


Yes now that I have a saddle that fits her, I can now use shims. 



> You can complain about losing money or you can complain about wasting time, you can't complain about both. Personally, if I spent that much on a cinch I'd be selling it for as much as possible to get fair return on it.


Well Classic Equine is expensive here and not everyone sells it. 

I personally want to still keep using mine but my fitter said its 4" too long. Maybe I will tack her up tomorrow with the Classic Equine for you to see where the d-rings are, then I will use the Billy Cook one.

How much better is a Classic Equine over the Billy Cook?

My fitter said she has her mohair cinches as well and for only $90. She said they're easily just as good as a Classic Equine and that Classic Equine cinches are now made overseas in Korea, is that true? Her's are made in the U.S.

Perhaps I'm better off getting one from my fitter?


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## Hoofpic

My mistake. I didn't pay $175cdn for my Classic Equine mohair cinch, it was $150.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Well Classic Equine is expensive here and not everyone sells it.


Try out your Classic Equine tomorrow and if it's obviously too long, use the Billy Cook one for your lesson. I'm not a mohair cinch expert, but I'm stalwartly of the opinion that for your level of riding a $175 CAD cinch is probably overkill (unless Fly is allergic to other materials). But the Classic Equine mohair cinches are like $75 USD (so $100 CAD) online, so why not just order one if you're so set on that brand?

Or buy one from your fitter, either way.

EDIT: Okay, $150 isn't as bad as $175. Still probably more than I'd spend on a cinch.


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## Hoofpic

Here is the fitter who came out today. 

Home | Western Specialties

Her name ring a bell to anyone here? She's very knowledgeable.

She's done a lot of Pro Rodeo saddle fitting and kids camps. Even runs horsemanship clinics.


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## Hoofpic

Now today, Fly was testing her and she was being quite rude. She actually bit her (not hard) on the arm and the fitter got upset at her. But Fly didn't try it again. She wanted to and was about to.

When I was going to put the old saddle on Fly, (I didn't notice), but she asked if Fly ever pins her ears at me and I said no. She said that she just did it as I was bring up the saddle to her. Fly was just having one of those days. But I wish I had noticed because I wasn't able to correct her for it in time as I had the saddle in my hands.

Fly did the same thing with the massage lady on Tuesday. She would turn her butt into her, paw, get in her space, etc.


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## carshon

Hoofpic it looks like your new saddle is a barrel saddle. A lot of barrel saddles have the deep seat you referred to in your post and the very rounded skirts. The saddle shape fits well on a short backed horse like fly.

Please ride in this saddle for your lesson - use your old pad - since you ride on a flat area only the saddle should not slide forward too much. If you were a trail rider and went up and down hills then you would need to shim before you ride. 

Until your riding time and places change to more advanced terrain and movements I would not invest in a new cinch. For a few lessons a month your mohair cinch (no matter what brand) should last you many many years. 

Good job on the new saddle - advertise yours well and you should get most of your money back.


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## carshon

double post*


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> Hoofpic it looks like your new saddle is a barrel saddle. A lot of barrel saddles have the deep seat you referred to in your post and the very rounded skirts. The saddle shape fits well on a short backed horse like fly.
> .


Thanks, yes it is a barrel saddle. I know that barrel saddles are meant for horses that like to run and I'm not exactly doing stuff like that with Fly, but I think it was a much better choice than a roping saddle (what the old saddle is).

The deep seat is very nice and my old saddle didnt have it. I think it will be really beneficial in my riding and being able to keep my weight in my seat. I cant tell you just how much I love that very rounded skirt, my fitter said it suits Fly very well because she has a short back. It just makes for so much less clutter and of course less weight, less to clean etc.



> Please ride in this saddle for your lesson - use your old pad - since you ride on a flat area only the saddle should not slide forward too much. If you were a trail rider and went up and down hills then you would need to shim before you ride. .


Okay I will use the new saddle today with the old pad. When I rode Fly yesterday, we checked the saddle after and the saddle and cinch said in the exact same spot from when we started at.

The only thing is that with the pad I have now, when I sit on her, it is a bit tight at the very front of the saddle between the saddle and pad (you can't even put your hand through there), whereas when you aren't on her, you easily can. I hope this won't cause any damage to Fly if I ride her like this for maybe a few times? What do you think?

This is why my fitter said to get a new pad with removable pockets and sell the pad I have now. I'm doing everything I can right now to getting a new pad but it's going to be a special order as 28" pads no one ever stocks here. So if I have to wait a couple weeks for it, will it be a big deal?

It's very frustrating and upsetting that I can't just go to a store and pick up a 28" length, 3/4" thick contour pad.



> Until your riding time and places change to more advanced terrain and movements I would not invest in a new cinch. For a few lessons a month your mohair cinch (no matter what brand) should last you many many years.
> 
> Good job on the new saddle - advertise yours well and you should get most of your money back.


Thanks. 

Which cinch are you talking about? The Classic Equine to keep using? I would but the fitter said its 4" too long whereas the Billy Cook one is perfect. But the quality is noticably better on the Classic Equine and it just feels better on her.


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## Whinnie

Not that I am a western rider, but I would think the cinch is too long only if the rings came up so high on each side that they were touching or getting under the saddle skirt, interfering with the fenders and/or there was so much latigo left from cinching up that you had to bring it around too many times through the rigging and cinch ring, making it too thick and bunchy under the fender (shortening the latigo would help that, but I don't see that being the problem with your cinch).

Just because it is a "barrel" saddle doesn't mean it can't be comfortable for general riding. It is just more secure for tight turns at fast speeds. IMO I would go lighter in saddle weight any time I could.


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> Not that I am a western rider, but I would think the cinch is too long only if the rings came up so high on each side that they were touching or getting under the saddle skirt, interfering with the fenders and/or there was so much latigo left from cinching up that you had to bring it around too many times through the rigging and cinch ring, making it too thick and bunchy under the fender (shortening the latigo would help that, but I don't see that being the problem with your cinch).
> 
> Just because it is a "barrel" saddle doesn't mean it can't be comfortable for general riding. It is just more secure for tight turns at fast speeds. IMO I would go lighter in saddle weight any time I could.


The fitter said something about my Classic Equine cinch touching a vein, which I had no clue what vein she was referring to. She said I don't need to go with a shorter cinch but she would if it was her.

I'm not trying to shoot down her advice, but I think as long as I measure 6-8" between the rings on both sides of the cinch when done up, it should be fine.

I will try it today and post pics for you guys with both cinches on her. I much prefer to use the Classic Equine cinch if I can.

Because the Classic Equine cinch wasn't too long on her old saddle, how would it be too long on the new one?

I remember a year ago I was talking with a tack shop and the lady told me to get the heaviest saddle I could find because light ones will shift around seeing how I am 160lbs. Which is probably true, a lighter saddle will probably be more vulnerable to shifting than a heavier one, but the saddle didn't shift at all yesterday when I got off her.

But this lady swore that heavier = better.


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## Hoofpic

I just talked to my fitter again and she said that she knows 100% that a 30" pad won't be too long for Fly, even though I told her it was. I think she might have been getting a little annoyed with me because I was telling her that a 30 is too long for Fly when she gaurenteed that it wouldnt be.

But then again, she knows a lot more than saddles than I do. She just said that she likes to have the pad on a horse a bit more forward than what most people have it at. Not a lot more forward but just enough to not risk the back of the pad rubbing against Fly's hip. She said that having a pad a bit more forward won't put anymore strain on their front end.

She said to take one home to re-try.

She also suggested dropping down to a 1/2" pad from the current 3/4".

So Im going to run to the tack shop this morning and pick one up to test.

She said that a Pro Choice will forsure be a great pad to use with this saddle on Fly.


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## greentree

The rigging on the saddle is lower, to keep it put of the way of knees when making sharp turns (around barrels). 

That 30"square pad is going to look goofy as heck with that tiny round skirted barrel saddle. The corners are going to curl up like the flying nun' hat.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> How much better is a Classic Equine over the Billy Cook?


As a cinch maker I can tell, not any better at all. Almost all commercial made cinches are made in one of 3 factories, with different labels put on them. Classic Equine is well known for that. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it really isn't anything special.


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I remember a year ago I was talking with a tack shop and the lady told me to get the heaviest saddle I could find because light ones will shift around seeing how I am 160lbs. Which is probably true, a lighter saddle will probably be more vulnerable to shifting than a heavier one, but the saddle didn't shift at all yesterday when I got off her.
> 
> But this lady swore that heavier = better.


So how does that explain 110 pound barrel racers turning at top speeds using 15 pound saddles? If the saddle FITS it won't shift. If you ride correctly as well, it won't shift. If you need weight to hold it down, logic tells me it is not fitting or your cinch is too loose or you are not riding balanced. 160 pounds is not a light weight rider.

Just use a little logic and think things through. Does it make sense to load pony-sized Fly down with lots of unnecessary weight via a saddle?


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## bsms

FWIW, 30" rectangular pad with a 26.5" round skirt saddle on a horse with an uncommonly short back:










I kind of like 3/4" thickness in a pad, but ours are all 1". I don't think the horse cares.

If you need something extra in the front, this is what I've been using with Bandit - the front half of a Wintec foam pad:










Very grippy. Has never slipped. Bandit had an odd problem and is now broader in the chest, and I've stopped using the pad in front. But it was a cheap and effective way of adding thickness there...

Cinch rings and veins:

Myth Busting - the "Exterior Abdominal Vein"

A 28" cinch puts the rings really high on Bandit. I have about a hand's width between the saddle and ring. I've seen no sign of irritation - physical or mental - from Bandit. I need about a 24" cinch made...maybe for Christmas. But my horse doesn't mind.

All FWIW. Sounds like you had a good lesson from a pro. Good luck!


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I'm doing everything I can right now to getting a new pad but it's going to be a special order as 28" pads no one ever stocks here.


Again, order a shimmable pad from online. Those endurance ones look like they're exactly what you need and Riding Warehouse has a returns policy... I don't get why you're custom ordering something when the RW ones are an option?



Whinnie said:


> Not that I am a western rider, but I would think the cinch is too long only if the rings came up so high on each side that they were touching or getting under the saddle skirt, interfering with the fenders and/or there was so much latigo left from cinching up that you had to bring it around too many times through the rigging and cinch ring, making it too thick and bunchy under the fender (shortening the latigo would help that, but I don't see that being the problem with your cinch).


I agree with this. Plus your fitter even said that you didn't _have_ to get a new cinch.



Hoofpic said:


> I just talked to my fitter again and she said that she knows 100% that a 30" pad won't be too long for Fly, even though I told her it was. ... But then again, she knows a lot more than saddles than I do.


She's right, a 30" would probably be fine, but if you're not comfortable with that, that's fine. Even with experts you get to choose which advice you take and which you don't, and there's no harm in getting a slightly shorter pad just because you'll feel better about it. Also, again, online shopping.



6gun Kid said:


> As a cinch maker I can tell, not any better at all. Almost all commercial made cinches are made in one of 3 factories, with different labels put on them. Classic Equine is well known for that. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it really isn't anything special.


6gun's a good one to listen to on this. Have you seen his thread about the process of making one? Super cool.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> The rigging on the saddle is lower, to keep it put of the way of knees when making sharp turns (around barrels).
> 
> That 30"square pad is going to look goofy as heck with that tiny round skirted barrel saddle. The corners are going to curl up like the flying nun' hat.


Thats what I was thinking, I tried 30" on Fly before, but the fitter swears it will fit so I will try it again. 

I picked one up today to try out. I got a 28" Pro Choice SMX Air Ride barrel pad as well but rounded skirt. It would go amazing with the saddle seeing how the saddle has a rounded skirt and black seat, only thing is it only has one pocket and its non removable. So overtime you cant put new felt inside the pockets. Possible deal breaker.

All depending on how quickly the pocket gets compressed.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> As a cinch maker I can tell, not any better at all. Almost all commercial made cinches are made in one of 3 factories, with different labels put on them. Classic Equine is well known for that. Sorry to burst your bubble, but it really isn't anything special.


Thanks. My fitter said the Billy Cook wont be as good, but who knows maybe she has a grudge against Classic Equine.

If infact they stuff is made in Korea and China, Id be concerned. USA should be the best.


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> So how does that explain 110 pound barrel racers turning at top speeds using 15 pound saddles? If the saddle FITS it won't shift. If you ride correctly as well, it won't shift. If you need weight to hold it down, logic tells me it is not fitting or your cinch is too loose or you are not riding balanced. 160 pounds is not a light weight rider.
> 
> Just use a little logic and think things through. Does it make sense to load pony-sized Fly down with lots of unnecessary weight via a saddle?


Well it makes sense now. Do you think my old saddle was too clunky/bulky for a horse the size of Fly? If I knew about barrel saddles when I first went shopping for the first saddle, then I would have opted for a barrel saddle from the start and not even consider going for a roping one.

The first time I went into a tack shop, I went in with the wrong logic. I was primarily focused on price and wanted to focus on the cheapest saddle that worked within Flys measurements and work the way up. 

But when I went into the tack shop 3 days ago, I went in focused primarily on measurements and price came after.


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## Prairie

Hofpic, return that Air Ride pad immediately since they are all hype. The air moves away from the pressure point so there is no protection where it's needed. Also do NOT buy a gel pad because the same thing happens. Think about what happens if you poke your finger in an inflated balloon or in a cup of water.


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## Hoofpic

Stephani,

The shop did have a shimmable pad (had huge pockets on each side), its a Turn and Burn by Len Brown. Anyone heard of this one before?

Envelope Saddle Pad, made to move with the horse!

Its only $10 more than the Diamond and Pro Choice except you have to get shims for it since this one is on clearance and has no shims. The girl said its normally a $500 pad. 

Shims at the store at about $20 each. But for the most customizability this is pad IMO can't be beat can it?

The last pad they had was a 28" and had the same rounded skirt like on the Pro choice. Except this one you can put shims in it and place them anywhere you want unlike the Pro Choice.

Because its on clearance, its final sale so that means I cant try and return it. When she said this, I was really turned away by it. But the chances of that pad not working (seeing how customizable it is), is very very slim IMO.


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## Whinnie

I want to clarify about saddle weight. I do like lightweight but additionally, the saddle MUST be of good construction, quality and fit. That comes before weight for me. And I think the ropers here can answer your question better, but I will tell you that back in the 70's, I bought a Big Horn roping saddle because I didn't know anything and all the horse people I knew were ropers. It was built up in the front of the seat, was so heavy I had difficulty saddling my 14.2 horse with it (I am short) and it was very uncomfortable for me to just pleasure ride in. There are pleasure/trail saddles that are MUCH lighter than a roping saddle. The weight of the roper on my horse wasn't too bad, but I was then one of those 110 pound riders and the horse had much heavier bone than Fly. 

I hope you will be happy with your new saddle. As long as the saddle is not overhanging the pad back and front why would you want an oversized, too long one? I don't understand the idea that a lot of pad needs to be over the withers if there is nothing over it, seems like overkill to me. Or maybe I am missing something. Is this fitter trying to sell you a cinch and pad?


I wish I had the money that you do.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> The shop did have a shimmable pad (had huge pockets on each side), its a Turn and Burn by Len Brown.


Clearance is great, non-returnable isn't. And I don't like the giant pockets, I feel like I'd put a shim in there and it'd move around as I rode. I don't know, I still just think there's a lot more (better) options online that _do_ accept returns.


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## bsms

Whinnie said:


> ...As long as the saddle is not overhanging the pad back and front why would you want an oversized, too long one? I don't understand the idea that a lot of pad needs to be over the withers if there is nothing over it...


Another FWIW...

This is my 25" saddle on a 28" shaped Diamond felt pad:










Same saddle, 30" pad:










Sliding my hand up between the horse and pad, just under the saddle, and walking beside my horse, it felt like there was a ridge of pressure at the front with the top pad, while everything slid underneath in the bottom one. I don't know for certain it was due to length, but I stopped using that pad with my horse. My wife, however, uses it without a problem all the time with our 22" long Abetta saddle.

Also, in case anyone is worried, the rear skirt of my saddle was specifically made to raise up. Mia had a bit of a roach there, so SouthernTrails had the skirting designed to raise up in the rear. Looks odd, but works well.

Also, when I used a cotton liner with my English saddles, it seemed to me tenting in the front was important to prevent a pressure line. With the 30" pad, particularly with a wither cutout, it doesn't seem to make any difference. If your horse isn't spooky, it is interesting to feel the way the shoulder and muscles move as they walk, and how it affects your saddle position and tack. Just make sure your hand would not get caught if the horse lunged forward...


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## Hoofpic

I just finished putting my stirrups onto my new saddle. Im about to throw both pads on Fly to test but right now I have doubts if the Pro Choice is a good buy for me even if that one shim that it has is in the right spot. Why? Because it would suck if this shim wore out and went flat in a year or whatever, then i would have to buy a new pad. Flattened shim pretty much makes this pad a regular pad.

Whereas on the diamond, I just buy new shims to put in to replace the flattened ones. Yes its uglier but its all about the fit on Fly right?


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## DraftyAiresMum

You can always buy a thin wool saddle blanket to throw over your saddle pad if you're THAT concerned about looks.

I've had several saddles on my gelding. Everything from a heavy-as-hell Circle Y roper to a cheap Abetta synthetic. He's ridden in an Aussie saddle and western saddles. My current saddle is an older Tex Tan Hereford that weighs about 30#. My previous saddle was a Circle A barrel saddle that weighed about 20#. They both fit and he rides the same in both of them. Neither of them shift at all. The Aussie was too wide (bummer 'cuz I LOVED that saddle), but it never shifted (has a heavy wood tree and weighed about 25#). The Circle Y probably weighed about 40# and never shifted (fit him really well even though he was a skinny 2yo). The Abetta...we just won't go there. It was only one ride and it was about 20 minutes. 

Point is, saddle weight had NOTHING to do with my saddles staying in place. Saddle FIT did. 

With a round-skirted saddle like that barrel saddle, I'd look into an endurance or barrel pad. 

Contoured Relief Pads - Round (Barrel) | Diamond Wool Pad Company

Endurance-Round Contoured Relief Pads | Diamond Wool Pad Company

You can find those Diamond Wool pads cheaper on eBay and on sale on other horse websites. I just pulled those links to give you an idea.


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## Avna

Hoofpic said:


> The fitter said something about my Classic Equine cinch touching a vein, which I had no clue what vein she was referring to. She said I don't need to go with a shorter cinch but she would if it was her.
> 
> I'm not trying to shoot down her advice, but I think as long as I measure 6-8" between the rings on both sides of the cinch when done up, it should be fine.
> 
> I will try it today and post pics for you guys with both cinches on her. I much prefer to use the Classic Equine cinch if I can.
> 
> Because the Classic Equine cinch wasn't too long on her old saddle, how would it be too long on the new one?
> 
> I remember a year ago I was talking with a tack shop and the lady told me to get the heaviest saddle I could find because light ones will shift around seeing how I am 160lbs. Which is probably true, a lighter saddle will probably be more vulnerable to shifting than a heavier one, but the saddle didn't shift at all yesterday when I got off her.
> 
> But this lady swore that heavier = better.


Then she was stupid.


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## Hoofpic

My trainer was a bit puzzled as to why i needed a new saddle. She noticed right away. I told her, she said fair enough, I understand. Fly being downhill is understandable but she said just to be careful with saddle fitters. The saddle she could understand but the pad she was questioning. She just said to be careful, the fitter could just be trying to sell me something. 

I politely told her that I know and I appreciate the advice. Remember me buying the Myler D ring bit and how that worked out?

She asked why I chose a barrel saddle. I said because of the deeper seat, rounded skirt and the lighter weight helps and that i feel better in it and it fits Fly. She said ok, she understood.

I rode today with the diamond pad on her with a pillowcase underneath.

First off, the pad is too long. I knew it but we tried it anyways. Trainer noticed it too. The fitter said that a 30 wouldnt be too long and she was wrong. 

We were cantering on a 20m circle lunge line and the saddle was slipping to the side and she made me immediately get off. Also during the lesson, i had to readjust the saddle so the tree was back to centre on Flys withers and she noticed this. I dont think she was too impressed.

She asked if I felt that the lady yesterday made the right call on this saddle. I said that Im confident that she did.

Why was the saddle slipping more so than my previous? Who knows.

I told her it could be the pad, (afterall I did have a pillowcase under it, and I still had the stickers on top. 

She said just to be careful and monitor it because a slipping saddle is a non fitting saddle. But she said this 30" pad is a no go. She said the Pro Choice is a much better fit just by her looking at it.


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## Prairie

Good grief, if the saddle actually fits, the only reason it would be slipping to the side is that you are still riding unbalanced. What you really need to do is learn riding bareback so you can feel when you are pulling Fly off balanced. You'll have to regain your balance to prevent falling off and learn how to keep it. Did you ever learn to ride a bike? Balancing on a horse is really not that different!


Rereadmy post on returning that Air ride pad-----it will not protect the pressure points on Fly's back! And this is another example of why so many question the qualifications of your so-called trainer. It's widely known in the equine world that both air ride and gel pads are all hype and do not protect the horse's back!


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Good grief, if the saddle actually fits, the only reason it would be slipping to the side is that you are still riding unbalanced. What you really need to do is learn riding bareback so you can feel when you are pulling Fly off balanced. You'll have to regain your balance to prevent falling off and learn how to keep it. Did you ever learn to ride a bike? Balancing on a horse is really not that different!


But I did have to stop the lesson about 3 or 4 times to adjust the saddle again so its centered.

And this was trotting and I was balanced.

I will agree with my trainer that the 30" pad is too long on Fly. It was almost touching her flank and the pad was already far forward. 

My fitter was wrong on this one. Honest mistake you think? 

I will say that I first took out the back shims (while sitting on fly) and left the middle big piece snd the front in. I still couldnt fit my fingers through the front between the saddle and pad.
So i took the fronts out and only left the middle pieces in. It was looser upfront now and i could out my finger tips through. Not super far thogh maybe 2 inches max.


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## Hoofpic

Priarie, it wasnt my trainer who said that the Pro Choice air pad would be good for Fly , that was my fitter.

So if you want to blame someone for suggesting it to me, its the fitter, not my trainer. Plus my fitter suggested a 30" pad and gaurenteed it would fit Fly. Its way too long, I took pics. 

So the fitter made two wrong calls already. Uhhhh!!!! Didnt I just pay her $150 less than 24 hrs ago?

My trainer looked at it and said, size wise it would be a much better fit than the 30" diamond because the Pro Choice is 28" and has a rounded skirt. But she said she wasnt too familiar with air pads and said she cant comment. Fair enough. Cant blame her.


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## Prairie

If you were balanced, the saddle would not slip! Post a video of you riding so we can see just how balanced you are.


If your trainer doesn't know the reputation of the air ride pads and neither does your saddle fitter, you've been taken for a nasty ride. Do you ask for references from other horse owners before hiring anyone? How much research do you do before taking someone's word as gospel? That's what we've been trying to get you to do----read books and magazines, search on the internet, get involved in other threads!


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## tinaev

Give the saddle a few more rides. You might be having a hard time adjusting your balance in it and that is causing it to slip. When I got my new saddle last year I felt off for the first few rides I put in it. I constantly felt like I was leaning to the left and I was because that was the position my body used to compensate for knee pain my previous saddle gave me. By my position being off the saddle seemed to twist during the ride. Fixed my position which fixed the saddle.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> If you were balanced, the saddle would not slip! Post a video of you riding so we can see just how balanced you are.


I am going to ride Fly tomorrow on my own. I will record myself for you guys to see. I was going to test out the Pro Choice air pad but now you suggest returning it, I'm guessing it's not even worth trying out on her? 

I already put the 30" Diamond pad back in the car. 30" just doesn't work on Fly. I already well knew this, 100% before even seing the fitter yesterday but she swore I was wrong that a 30" wouldn't be too big on her.



> If your trainer doesn't know the reputation of the air ride pads and neither does your saddle fitter, you've been taken for a nasty ride. Do you ask for references from other horse owners before hiring anyone? How much research do you do before taking someone's word as gospel? That's what we've been trying to get you to do----read books and magazines, search on the internet, get involved in other threads!


My fitter does know the reputation of the air pads. She was the one who mentioned Pro Choice to me. She said to me yesterday that she knew 100% that the Pro Choice would be a good pad for Fly. She didn't specifically say the "air" pad but from my research Pro Choice only makes the air pad for pads with shims. 

My trainer didn't actually "Say" that she didn't know much about Air pads" (my apologies if I said that), she just didn't say anything, so I assumed she wasn't familiar with them. Again, don't take my word that she doesn't know about them.

I asked for references from the fitter and I called all 3 and all 3 had nothing but great stuff to say about her.


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## Hoofpic

And to answer your question Prairie, yes i rode my bike for many many years when I was younger. I did a lot of mountain biking in my teenager years.


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## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> Give the saddle a few more rides. You might be having a hard time adjusting your balance in it and that is causing it to slip. When I got my new saddle last year I felt off for the first few rides I put in it. I constantly felt like I was leaning to the left and I was because that was the position my body used to compensate for knee pain my previous saddle gave me. By my position being off the saddle seemed to twist during the ride. Fixed my position which fixed the saddle.


I'm not giving up on the saddle just yet, it's far too early.

Today was honestly probably the worst day to ride a new saddle in because all the horses at the barn were on edge, bratty, and just unlike them. When the alpha mare at the barn is being a brat and unlike it, then you know the rest of the horses at the barn will be as well. Fly was just so full of energy and wanted to go, go, go.

It took a few mins to get used to the new saddle when trotting Fly but as the lesson went on I was able to find my seat more. My trainer did say to me that today was the best she's seen my back positioning and a big improvement from last time. This immediately caught my attention, perhaps a sign of riding in a much better saddle?


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hofpic, return that Air Ride pad immediately since they are all hype. The air moves away from the pressure point so there is no protection where it's needed. Also do NOT buy a gel pad because the same thing happens. Think about what happens if you poke your finger in an inflated balloon or in a cup of water.


Thanks, I wish I had known this before buying it. I won't even bother trying it out.


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## gottatrot

I think you said your saddle fitter thought the pad might be too thick?

Wool pads are notorious for slipping if they are too thick for the saddle. They have to fit under the saddle without adding so much material they turn the back into a rounded surface. If they do, then they will slip like no other. 

This is the experience I've had with wool pads and so have friends of mine. My horses with rounded backs can only use very thin wool pads - I like the material but they are not practical for me to use.

I've not heard that idea about blocking the abdominal vein, but scientifically it does not make sense. There are many, many veins that provide circulation to the various areas of the body, some superficial and some deeper. If you press on that vein, it will simply disappear into the soft tissue unless somehow you could pinch it between a bone very hard. There's too much muscle in that area to do so. Even if you did compress it off, the circulation would be rerouted to other veins.

If you compress a vein on the top of your hand, does it compromise the circulation from your hand? Not at all. This is a non-issue someone made up who did not understand biology.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> I think you said your saddle fitter thought the pad might be too thick?


She said that the extra thickness is doing me no favours. She didn't say that my current 3/4" pad is too thick but I would benefit more with a 1/2"

I wonder if the thinner pad creates more room for saddles to slip? Cause technically wouldn't you have to tighten your cinch a bit tighter? I know the difference between 1/2" and 3/4" is not that much at all.



> Wool pads are notorious for slipping if they are too thick for the saddle. They have to fit under the saddle without adding so much material they turn the back into a rounded surface. If they do, then they will slip like no other.
> 
> This is the experience I've had with wool pads and so have friends of mine. My horses with rounded backs can only use very thin wool pads - I like the material but they are not practical for me to use.


Oh I didnt know this thanks. But actually the 1/2" Diamond SHoulder relief pad that I tried today is only wool on the bottom. The top is like a nylon fabric, whereas my current 3/4" diamond pad is wool on the outside and inside. The top of the 1/2" pad is noticably slippier than my current 3/4" pad. Perhaps that was a factor and perhaps having a pad with a slippery surface isnt the best idea.



> I've not heard that idea about blocking the abdominal vein, but scientifically it does not make sense. There are many, many veins that provide circulation to the various areas of the body, some superficial and some deeper. If you press on that vein, it will simply disappear into the soft tissue unless somehow you could pinch it between a bone very hard. There's too much muscle in that area to do so. Even if you did compress it off, the circulation would be rerouted to other veins.
> 
> If you compress a vein on the top of your hand, does it compromise the circulation from your hand? Not at all. This is a non-issue someone made up who did not understand biology.


When the fitter told me this, I was puzzled too. It was my fault for not asking for more clarification.

Honestly though, the fitter was ALREADY incorrect on a 30" pad fitting Fly, and the Pro Choice would be a good pad. Perhaps she was wrong too on saying how my current Classic Equine cinch was too long for Fly.


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## Hoofpic

Gottatrot,

I don't know which vein the fitter was referring to, so not sure if it was the abdominal vein.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> So the fitter made two wrong calls already. Uhhhh!!!! Didnt I just pay her $150 less than 24 hrs ago?


Look, stop right there. That's not how it works, it's not an all or nothing ordeal. Everyone who works with horses does everything a little bit differently, so you can't disregard everything that someone says just because you don't end up liking a piece of advice they've given you. People don't fall into two categories of "competent" and "non-competent", everybody is somewhere in between. She's a professional saddle fitter and you have three good references for her, chances are she's more on the competent side. But that's why it's so important to be able to use Google and _do your own research_, because that's how you decide which advice you should follow and which advice you should set aside.

As for the pad, the fitter even said that she liked to put her pad more forward than most people have it, and that if a 30" pad was positioned where she normally put it then it would be fine on Fly. Did you keep that in mind when you tacked her up with the 30" pad? Not saying you should have to have a 30" pad, like I said if you want a 28" then you should buy a 28", but you're so quick to dismiss the stuff the fitter says...

And you would have noticed if she was trying to sell you anything. She gave you her recommendations (even if we/trainer/you don't agree with them), she didn't try to pawn off a product that she was getting commission on onto you.



Hoofpic said:


> I wonder if the thinner pad creates more room for saddles to slip? Cause technically wouldn't you have to tighten your cinch a bit tighter?


Wait, did you _not_ tighten your cinch a bit tighter? Are you riding with a loose cinch? Because your cinch should always be the same level of tight, no matter what tack you've got on. It sounds like your saddle was sliding because you weren't as balanced as you think you are (a truly balanced rider can ride without a cinch entirely, especially since we _know_ your saddle fits better now) and you weren't completely tacked up correctly.

Like Tinaev said, you should give the saddle a few more rides. Chances are that you're having to adjust to a saddle that fits correctly (since an improperly fitting saddle can and will affect your posture and your balance), so you're trying to ride like you did in your old saddle and getting off balance because of it. It takes time to adjust to new equipment and you have it on trial anyways.



Hoofpic said:


> I will say that I first took out the back shims (while sitting on fly) and left the middle big piece snd the front in. I still couldnt fit my fingers through the front between the saddle and pad.
> So i took the fronts out and only left the middle pieces in. It was looser upfront now and i could out my finger tips through. Not super far thogh maybe 2 inches max.


Question: do you even know what you're looking for with all of these shim adjustments? This is why it's frustrating that your trainer's not knowledgeable on this, because if I was wondering about any of this stuff I would be asking my trainer in person instead of trying to get a consensus from strangers on the Internet who are going to base their opinions off of a couple of grainy photos. Someone with more knowledge on western saddle fit can comment on this, but you really should be doing research/reading about the things you should be looking for instead of experimenting blindly.



Hoofpic said:


> Today was honestly probably the worst day to ride a new saddle in because all the horses at the barn were on edge, bratty, and just unlike them. When the alpha mare at the barn is being a brat and unlike it, then you know the rest of the horses at the barn will be as well. Fly was just so full of energy and wanted to go, go, go.


You're blaming unrelated circumstances for your problems again. The "mood" of the horses in the barn shouldn't have any effect on you testing out a new saddle, and Fly being full of energy is going to happen sometimes, so it's not a bad thing to try a saddle when she's more active than normal.



Hoofpic said:


> I am going to ride Fly tomorrow on my own. I will record myself for you guys to see.


Excited to watch, I really want to see how the saddle looks on her!


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## greentree

I am putting this out there...just for some information...

For about a million years, people have ridden horses in western saddles with no more than a thin wool blanket. We rode Enlish with NO blanket or pad. 

We did not have to pay saddle fitters $150. I will tell you what I think ypu want to hear for $150, too..maybe.


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## bsms

Maybe there are too many shims? Or they are squishy shims?

My experience using padding on a mare prone to violent spins: felt, fleece, towels and folded blankets destabilize the saddle. If you want a saddle sliding sideways, using a squishy substance to "build up" the front is a GREAT way of doing it. The only thing I ever found that did not destabilize the saddle was the front half of a Wintec pad. It was the only thing I ever tried dense enough and grippy enough to help instead of making things worse. And I'm a tackaholic who has been keeping the online stores flush with cash...

The Nikkels, making custom saddle trees for a lot of downhill horses, concluded good fit and good contact between saddle and horse was the best solution for a downhill horse. That makes sense to me.

If the saddle is slipping to the side, there are only two causes I know of: the fit is poor, or you've got too much padding. One of the reasons I concluded Bandit had bulked up enough not to need a shim is I can mount from the ground with a very loose cinch and not have the saddle shift. I'm 58. My back often hurts. My legs are always tight. My riding is as awkward as I look. I have to jump to get my toe into the stirrup. And the saddle stays stable. It fits. Food for thought.

Also, this was Cowboy - all 13.0 short back hands of him - with a 30" felt pad:








​ 
If you want to say it looks dorky, that is fine. I tend to have that effect on a good-looking horse anyways. But a 30" wool felt pad will not harm the horse in any way. Do what you want for your tastes, but wool felt can rub their hips all day and not do squat-all harm.

Saddle Fit: An Enduring Western Myth
 by Dusty Johnson​


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## Whinnie

If your slipping problems happened when you were being lunged in circles my guess is that you were unbalanced and leaning to the inside of the circle, causing slippage. When you tried the saddle yesterday, did you ride circles like you did today?


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## greentree

I am putting this out there...just for some information...

For about a million years, people have ridden horses in western saddles with no more than a thin wool blanket. We rode Enlish with NO blanket or pad. 

We did not have to pay saddle fitters $150. I will tell you what I think ypu want to hear for $150, too..maybe.


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## Hoofpic




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## DraftyAiresMum

I don't understand how the mood of the other horses at the barn effects your ability to test out a saddle. If your horse isn't focused on YOU when you are in the saddle, something needs to change. With all the other crap going on with you, it's difficult to say what that "something" is. I don't give a flying rat's behind how the other horses at the barn are acting or feeling. My horse better be paying attention to ME when I'm asking him to work or there will be hell to pay.

ETA: That pad isn't too long at all. It looks a little goofy with a round skirt saddle, but it's not too long for the horse.

Also, that's not nylon on top of it. It's canvas. I'd love a pad like that for my saddle. Doesn't work with your saddle, though. I would go with a pad similar to the ones I posted, if you insist on shims.


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## greentree

I do not understand why you need all that pad. If the saddle FITS, it needs only needs enough to protect the saddle from sweat.

See what I mean about the corners flipping up?

On the concho, does it say " Billy Cook, Sulphur (or Sulfur), OK"?


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## StephaniHren

I agree with Drafty, the saddle pad isn't too long, but it does look goofy with the saddle. Greentree is right, it's just... too much pad. Again, I'm tossing my opinion in with the nice rounded endurance pads, if you want a pad with shims that won't look ridiculously awkward with your saddle.

On a good note, your cinch looks fine to me, so long as you've actually got it tightened up in these pictures. It'll be even more fine with a smaller pad, since you'll have a bit more clearance for the rings.

Again, not a western saddle expert, so I'll leave comments about fit to someone else with more expertise.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Look, stop right there. That's not how it works, it's not an all or nothing ordeal. Everyone who works with horses does everything a little bit differently, so you can't disregard everything that someone says just because you don't end up liking a piece of advice they've given you. People don't fall into two categories of "competent" and "non-competent", everybody is somewhere in between. She's a professional saddle fitter and you have three good references for her, chances are she's more on the competent side. But that's why it's so important to be able to use Google and _do your own research_, because that's how you decide which advice you should follow and which advice you should set aside.


But the fact is my fitter suggested Pro Choice and said it would work and Priarie said to return the pad (which I just did that tonight btw, I returned both pads!)



> As for the pad, the fitter even said that she liked to put her pad more forward than most people have it, and that if a 30" pad was positioned where she normally put it then it would be fine on Fly. Did you keep that in mind when you tacked her up with the 30" pad? Not saying you should have to have a 30" pad, like I said if you want a 28" then you should buy a 28", but you're so quick to dismiss the stuff the fitter says...


Actually the pad was too long, take a look at my pics. Yes when I put the pad on her, I basically put the pad forward, then shifted it to the furthest back that I can have it before it touches her flank. I just wanted to see how it would look. It goes too far up her neck and when she turns her head, the pad is just about touching her flank.



> And you would have noticed if she was trying to sell you anything. She gave you her recommendations (even if we/trainer/you don't agree with them), she didn't try to pawn off a product that she was getting commission on onto you.


Well she did say that I should get a 28" cinch and said that she sells them. When she first arrived, the very first second, she handed me her business card and after a few minutes she did start to talk about how she is not only a fitter but a maker as well and she fits for horses in the Pro Rodeos etc. Trust me, she got her elevator sales pitch in. I was not expecting it.



> Wait, did you _not_ tighten your cinch a bit tighter? Are you riding with a loose cinch? Because your cinch should always be the same level of tight, no matter what tack you've got on. It sounds like your saddle was sliding because you weren't as balanced as you think you are (a truly balanced rider can ride without a cinch entirely, especially since we _know_ your saddle fits better now) and you weren't completely tacked up correctly.
> 
> Like Tinaev said, you should give the saddle a few more rides. Chances are that you're having to adjust to a saddle that fits correctly (since an improperly fitting saddle can and will affect your posture and your balance), so you're trying to ride like you did in your old saddle and getting off balance because of it. It takes time to adjust to new equipment and you have it on trial anyways.


Yes I tightened the cinch a bit tighter knowing that I went from a 3/4" to a 1/2" pad. Before I mounted Fly, I tightened the cinch and I felt it, and it was just as tight as on the old saddle with the same Classic Equine mohair cinch.



> Question: do you even know what you're looking for with all of these shim adjustments? This is why it's frustrating that your trainer's not knowledgeable on this, because if I was wondering about any of this stuff I would be asking my trainer in person instead of trying to get a consensus from strangers on the Internet who are going to base their opinions off of a couple of grainy photos. Someone with more knowledge on western saddle fit can comment on this, but you really should be doing research/reading about the things you should be looking for instead of experimenting blindly.


My trainer is very familiar with shims. When I told her that I was suggested to get a new pad with them, she just said ok and she understood. 

The fitter explained it to me very well yesterday on what she was wanting for me to do with Fly. She wants me to get a pad with 3 shim pockets, remove the back and keep the middle one in (to fill that bridge under the gullet where there is not enough contact against Fly's body). By closing that bridge, it will distribute the weight of the rider more evenly and more weight felt towards her hind end which is what you want. It will also lift the very front of the saddle enough to take some pressure off her withers. 

I tried it today. I removed all shims and only kept the big middle piece in. I was able to slide my fingers between the front of the pad and the saddle. If I keep that front shim in, I can't do this, it tightens it on her with. This is all tested with me sitting on her.



> You're blaming unrelated circumstances for your problems again. The "mood" of the horses in the barn shouldn't have any effect on you testing out a new saddle, and Fly being full of energy is going to happen sometimes, so it's not a bad thing to try a saddle when she's more active than normal.
> 
> Excited to watch, I really want to see how the saddle looks on her!


I didn't come up with it, my friends and everyone at the barn did. My friend was freaking out because her mare was acting up from just standing tied, and then she started pawing so she didn't give her a cookie.

She ALWAYS gives her a cookie everytime she brings her in the barn and ties her up for being good. Then another cookie for standing. Then another cookie for picking up her feet. If she paws or isnt good then no cookie.

So she was acting up and she just kept saying how it's the weather, it's cold, she might be heat etc etc, so she untied her because she said that it wasn't a good day


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I am putting this out there...just for some information...
> 
> For about a million years, people have ridden horses in western saddles with no more than a thin wool blanket. We rode Enlish with NO blanket or pad.
> 
> We did not have to pay saddle fitters $150. I will tell you what I think ypu want to hear for $150, too..maybe.


So what are you saying? That I wasted my $150 on a fitter? I thought you guys all suggested I get a fitter out.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I do not understand why you need all that pad. If the saddle FITS, it needs only needs enough to protect the saddle from sweat.
> 
> See what I mean about the corners flipping up?
> 
> On the concho, does it say " Billy Cook, Sulphur (or Sulfur), OK"?


I never wanted to try a 30" pad on her. I tried it in January before I got my first saddle and I didn't like it. It was just too much pad on her. Too much bulk. But this morning my fitter was insisting and promising me that a 30" pad would fit her. I told her that it was too long and once I got my 28" pad, it's amazing how much of a difference 2" make. Have you seen how my 28" Diamond pad looks on her? It looks really good. Not overwhelming, not too much, it's not over powering your eyes.

Remember that pad is brand new and hasn't been molded yet. When I first got my 28" Diamond pad it did the same thing but because wasn't as big, it wasn't nearly as bad as the 30"

Anyways I did not like the Diamond 30" and returned it tonight to the shop. I also returned the Pro Choice Air pad as well because Prairie said it's not very good.

Tomorrow morning I will swing by another tack shop. They have a 28" with shims in stock. They also have the pad by Len Brown, Huck and Tuck I think it's called. The one where it has huge pockets on both sides and you put your own shims in. I honestly think this might be a pad worth trying.

I only want a pad with a very round skirt. It will go with the saddle.

That 30" Diamond pad looks ridiculous with that saddle because it completely overpowers it. It's just too much pad.



> On the concho, does it say " Billy Cook, Sulphur (or Sulfur), OK"?


I will check tomorrow. What does this define though?


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## paintedpastures

Well you have learned what to look for from saddle fitter & maybe this saddle is the better of the 2 but...I'm not a fan of that saddle.:-( Your horse probably would be best with a rounded or shorter skirt for sure but that is extreme. If your plan is to do some trailriding or some other disciplines beyond beyond gymkana I would be looking for something more like a wade,reiner or an allpurpose/equitation type saddle :grin: Billy cooks do fit a wider,crates or older model circle Y would also probably do well{they fit variety of horses}. The older models also have shorter skirts & are built much better than those brands today.You might also look for a older used Vic Bennet {popular around here ,usually pretty pricey but great saddles}:gallop:


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## StephaniHren

StephaniHren said:


> Look, stop right there. That's not how it works, it's not an all or nothing ordeal. Everyone who works with horses does everything a little bit differently, so you can't disregard everything that someone says just because you don't end up liking a piece of advice they've given you. People don't fall into two categories of "competent" and "non-competent", everybody is somewhere in between. She's a professional saddle fitter and you have three good references for her, chances are she's more on the competent side. But that's why it's so important to be able to use Google and _do your own research_, because that's how you decide which advice you should follow and which advice you should set aside.


Sometimes I feel like I should just repeat myself until you actually read what I've written. _Yes_, I realize the fitter recommended Pro Choice and then Prairie said to return it. There are no black and white answers. Once again, _you have to do your own research and make your own decisions, because no two people are ever going to agree on anything_.

No, the pad doesn't look too long. It just looks too big for your saddle, but that's a style not a functionality thing.

Of course she gave you her business card and told you a little bit about her practice to build credibility (yes, I'm going to listen to a fitter that's an actual saddlemaker more than a fitter that doesn't have similar skills, but no, I don't consider telling me you make custom saddles a sales speech). And your cinch is a little on the long side, so I'm calling that fair, too.

I guess I just don't understand why you took out the front shim, if the problem is that Fly is butt high? I'm trying to follow the whole "slide my fingers between the front of the pad and the saddle" part, but not getting it. My big problem is that I don't understand how a shim in the middle of the pad fixes the butt high problem... Maybe someone that's got a better understanding of western saddle fit can explain this to me?



Hoofpic said:


> She ALWAYS gives her a cookie everytime she brings her in the barn and ties her up for being good. Then another cookie for standing. Then another cookie for picking up her feet. If she paws or isnt good then no cookie.


If I gave my horse this many cookies, he would be pawing, too.


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> I want to clarify about saddle weight. I do like lightweight but additionally, the saddle MUST be of good construction, quality and fit. That comes before weight for me.


The fitter yesterday inspected the new saddle and said it's a great quality saddle that looks barely used, possibly a demo. And the thing does look and feel brand new. The leather is VERY STIFF! A dramatic change from the old saddle where everything was so butter soft.



> And I think the ropers here can answer your question better, but I will tell you that back in the 70's, I bought a Big Horn roping saddle because I didn't know anything and all the horse people I knew were ropers. It was built up in the front of the seat, was so heavy I had difficulty saddling my 14.2 horse with it (I am short) and it was very uncomfortable for me to just pleasure ride in. There are pleasure/trail saddles that are MUCH lighter than a roping saddle. The weight of the roper on my horse wasn't too bad, but I was then one of those 110 pound riders and the horse had much heavier bone than Fly.


Why are roping saddles so heavy?

Im guessing these barrel saddles are made so light and simple because whoever using it for racing will be all about speed and running fast.



> I hope you will be happy with your new saddle. As long as the saddle is not overhanging the pad back and front why would you want an oversized, too long one? I don't understand the idea that a lot of pad needs to be over the withers if there is nothing over it, seems like overkill to me. Or maybe I am missing something. Is this fitter trying to sell you a cinch and pad?


Well the fitter doesn't make her own pads but who knows maybe she gets a commission from getting her customers to spend money at tack shops. 

Her explanation was that having more pad up front on a horse won't interfere with their movements while being ridden. For me though, I just don't think its needed to have all that extra padding there. They will have extra rubbing when they turn their heads, and more insulation where they can just develop more sweat


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## EmberScarlet

This is dun.


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## bsms

I'll delete this picture in a week or two:










IMHO, too much pad for the saddle. It lifts the saddle up enough that there isn't much left to hang on to Fly's back in a turn. With decent saddle fit, 1" of padding is plenty - near the upper limit.

"_She wants me to get a pad with 3 shim pockets, remove the back and keep the middle one in (to fill that bridge under the gullet where there is not enough contact against Fly's body). By closing that bridge, it will distribute the weight of the rider more evenly and more weight felt towards her hind end which is what you want. It will also lift the very front of the saddle enough to take some pressure off her withers._"

Makes no sense to me. If the saddle doesn't touch the withers with you in it, it is clear. Can you take a picture similar to this:










And maybe try riding her with just a 1" felt pad? NO shims, no doo-hickies, just a felt pad between the saddle and Fly?

"_Why are roping saddles so heavy?_"

Because if a steer hits the end of the rope that is on your horn, having the saddle come apart will ruin your day? The tree of a roping saddle, and the horn, need to be built up strong enough to handle loads a non-roping saddle will not encounter. And that adds weight.

"_They will have extra rubbing when they turn their heads, and more insulation where they can just develop more sweat_"

Doesn't work that way. Not even close.

"_If I gave my horse this many cookies, he would be pawing, too._"

Mine would be so fat we'd have to put him on roller skates to move him.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I agree with Drafty, the saddle pad isn't too long, but it does look goofy with the saddle. Greentree is right, it's just... too much pad. Again, I'm tossing my opinion in with the nice rounded endurance pads, if you want a pad with shims that won't look ridiculously awkward with your saddle.
> 
> On a good note, your cinch looks fine to me, so long as you've actually got it tightened up in these pictures. It'll be even more fine with a smaller pad, since you'll have a bit more clearance for the rings.
> 
> Again, not a western saddle expert, so I'll leave comments about fit to someone else with more expertise.


Tomorrow morning, I am going to another tack shop to try out their pads. 

I think the Classic Equine mohair cinch looks fine. All I know is that the Billy Cook one doesn't feel near as good as this one. The strands are a lot softer and mushy whereas the Classic Equine has resistance. 

Actually in those pictures, the cinch isn't fully tightened. I tighten, but never fully tighten until I get into the arena before mounting because she will always let out air when standing anyways.


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## Whinnie

C'mon, Hoofpic, why would you have to ask why is a roping saddle is so heavy. Have you ever seen calf or steer roping?


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## StephaniHren

bsms said:


> "_If I gave my horse this many cookies, he would be pawing, too._"
> 
> Mine would be so fat we'd have to put him on roller skates to move him.


Not to mention his teeth would be falling out from all of that sugar.


----------



## Hoofpic

paintedpastures said:


> Well you have learned what to look for from saddle fitter & maybe this saddle is the better of the 2 but...I'm not a fan of that saddle.:-( Your horse probably would be best with a rounded or shorter skirt for sure but that is extreme. If your plan is to do some trailriding or some other disciplines beyond beyond gymkana I would be looking for something more like a wade,reiner or an allpurpose/equitation type saddle :grin: Billy cooks do fit a wider,crates or older model circle Y would also probably do well{they fit variety of horses}. The older models also have shorter skirts & are built much better than those brands today.You might also look for a older used Vic Bennet {popular around here ,usually pretty pricey but great saddles}:gallop:


Just curious on why you aren't a fan of this saddle? Do you think it's too light or small for her?

I know my fitter said that a cowhorse saddle would fit her the best and would clear up pressure on the withers because of the wider gullet bars. But it's $3000 for one from her.

I do remember my fitter mentioning a reiner yesterday as well.

If I do ever get into Cowboy challenge, I think this barrel saddle that I got now would really come in handy.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I don't understand how the mood of the other horses at the barn effects your ability to test out a saddle. If your horse isn't focused on YOU when you are in the saddle, something needs to change. With all the other crap going on with you, it's difficult to say what that "something" is. I don't give a flying rat's behind how the other horses at the barn are acting or feeling. My horse better be paying attention to ME when I'm asking him to work or there will be hell to pay.
> 
> ETA: That pad isn't too long at all. It looks a little goofy with a round skirt saddle, but it's not too long for the horse.
> 
> Also, that's not nylon on top of it. It's canvas. I'd love a pad like that for my saddle. Doesn't work with your saddle, though. I would go with a pad similar to the ones I posted, if you insist on shims.


I don't either but you have to remember, everyone at my barn factors all that stuff in. Like my friends mare today was acting up so my friend got worked up over it and said she could be in heat (though she always says this) and I just ignore it when I hear her say it.


----------



## bsms

"would clear up pressure on the withers because of the wider gullet bars"

?????????????????????????

Might be time to ditch the saddle fitters and spend a few hours reading for free at the Nikkel's website:

Saddle Fit Blog Post Links


----------



## StephaniHren

bsms said:


> "would clear up pressure on the withers because of the wider gullet bars"
> 
> ?????????????????????????
> 
> Might be time to ditch the saddle fitters and spend a few hours reading for free at the Nikkel's website:
> 
> Saddle Fit Blog Post Links


Fitters are a great resource, but nothing beats out good research. I do think Hoofpic did well in consulting with an expert, but I think he should also do the research for himself, too. That way he can make educated decisions about the info the fitter gave him.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Sometimes I feel like I should just repeat myself until you actually read what I've written. _Yes_, I realize the fitter recommended Pro Choice and then Prairie said to return it. There are no black and white answers. Once again, _you have to do your own research and make your own decisions, because no two people are ever going to agree on anything_.


Don't worry, I read it. But I trust Prairie's advice on this one and that's why I returned the Pro Choice tonight.



> No, the pad doesn't look too long. It just looks too big for your saddle, but that's a style not a functionality thing.


Still much prefer my 28" and though not a rounded skirt, would look much better than the 30"

You have to remember that just about everyone who rides at the barn rides English, so they're not used to seeing these huge honkin pads. So when they see a big pad on a horse, it's kinda exaggerated in their eyes. 



> Of course she gave you her business card and told you a little bit about her practice to build credibility (yes, I'm going to listen to a fitter that's an actual saddlemaker more than a fitter that doesn't have similar skills, but no, I don't consider telling me you make custom saddles a sales speech). And your cinch is a little on the long side, so I'm calling that fair, too.


Which is fine, I had no problem with it.



> I guess I just don't understand why you took out the front shim, if the problem is that Fly is butt high? I'm trying to follow the whole "slide my fingers between the front of the pad and the saddle" part, but not getting it. My big problem is that I don't understand how a shim in the middle of the pad fixes the butt high problem... Maybe someone that's got a better understanding of western saddle fit can explain this to me?


Fly needs more clearance at the front of the pad between the pad and saddle. By keeping the front shim in, it will just make it tight and apply pressure. But by removing it and by keeping the middle shim in, it applies more needed pressure under the gullet and therefore more of the rider's weight will be carried to the hind end. This will cause less pressure on the front of the pad because the added pressure from the middle shim will lift up the front end of the pad a bit.

My fitter even showed me on my old saddle pad. At the very front of the pad where it sits on her withers, there is a spot on each side that is compressed. Fitter said that will never come out and that is from the front part of the saddle applying too much pressure in those spots. So I need to free up some clearance there for her.



> If I gave my horse this many cookies, he would be pawing, too.


Well my friend gives her cookies for being good. I've always said to myself that, that horses sees it as nothing but a hand fed treat because how would any horse be able to reconize that they are getting a treat for being good? Or standing? And I will say this, my friends mare is very nippy. She will nip into your pocket for treats. Wonder why.


----------



## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> "would clear up pressure on the withers because of the wider gullet bars"
> 
> ?????????????????????????
> 
> Might be time to ditch the saddle fitters and spend a few hours reading for free at the Nikkel's website:
> 
> Saddle Fit Blog Post Links


Sorry bsms, I didn't quite explain that right, no the fitter didnt say that, that is my fault. This is why I really wish I could have voice recorded the session with my fitter. I can't write fast enough to take all her notes down word for word.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Fly needs more clearance at the front of the pad between the pad and saddle. By keeping the front shim in, it will just make it tight and apply pressure. But by removing it and by keeping the middle shim in, it applies more needed pressure under the gullet and therefore more of the rider's weight will be carried to the hind end. This will cause less pressure on the front of the pad because the added pressure from the middle shim will lift up the front end of the pad a bit.
> 
> My fitter even showed me on my old saddle pad. At the very front of the pad where it sits on her withers, there is a spot on each side that is compressed. Fitter said that will never come out and that is from the front part of the saddle applying too much pressure in those spots. So I need to free up some clearance there for her.


Still not getting how a shim in the middle will shift weight to the hind end on a horse that's downhill. I'm thinking about it like teeter totter (with the shim being the fulcrum in the middle). Won't the saddle just tip forward to the part of the pad with no shim, since she's already built downhill?

Pressure on the withers doesn't say "free up some clearance" to me, it says "this tree doesn't fit correctly and the saddle is unbalanced so it's leaning forward and digging into my horse's withers". 

I'm trying to visualize this and failing really, really hard.


----------



## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> IMHO, too much pad for the saddle. It lifts the saddle up enough that there isn't much left to hang on to Fly's back in a turn. With decent saddle fit, 1" of padding is plenty - near the upper limit.


Remember, the pad in my pics tonight were a 1/2" Diamond. 



> Makes no sense to me. If the saddle doesn't touch the withers with you in it, it is clear. Can you take a picture similar to this:


You are right, no the saddle does not physically touch the withers but what the fitter meant is that, with no weight on Fly's back, if you slide your finger tips between the front of the pad and front of the saddle, you can get them inside a few inches effortlessly. This means that there is not a lot of pressure on her withers, if any at all.

But once you get on her, there is pressure on her withers from the very front of the saddle tipping forward a bit. You may not notice it with the pad and all, but it's there.

When really, the weight should be going to the back of the saddle and right under the gullet, not to the withers. 

So by putting shims right under the gullet is, it closes the bridge that she has when a saddle is on her, and it distributes more of the riders weight to the seat and prevents the saddle from dipping forward.

Hope that makes sense now. The fitter guaranteed me that this would greatly help me as a rider in keeping balanced and back straight.

I can try to get you pics of the pad and saddle on the withers but I dont think it will do anything because you can't see the extra pressure by eye.



> And maybe try riding her with just a 1" felt pad? NO shims, no doo-hickies, just a felt pad between the saddle and Fly?


1" is way too thick. The thickest I would go is 3/4". I have considered riding her in a felt pad but will that even soften the brunt from the saddle enough like a wool pad would? And I;ve never seen a contoured felt pad. 

The places here who sell felt pads are usually 1/2" and they're the English stores. Can you use English felt pads on Western saddles? 



> Because if a steer hits the end of the rope that is on your horn, having the saddle come apart will ruin your day? The tree of a roping saddle, and the horn, need to be built up strong enough to handle loads a non-roping saddle will not encounter. And that adds weight.


Okay thanks, I get it now.


----------



## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> Fly needs more clearance at the front of the pad between the pad and saddle. By keeping the front shim in, it will just make it tight and apply pressure. But by removing it and by keeping the middle shim in, it applies more needed pressure under the gullet and therefore more of the rider's weight will be carried to the hind end. This will cause less pressure on the front of the pad because the added pressure from the middle shim will lift up the front end of the pad a bit.


I think you might not be understanding this correctly. Horses don't need any clearance between pad and saddle. The pad and saddle hopefully become one entity that together provide weight distribution and spinal clearance. 

There is never need for testing clearance between a pad and saddle. You need to test clearance between the pad/saddle entity and the horse. If you had the perfect pad, you could glue it tightly up into the channel or gullet of your saddle, and that would actually help ensure the pad never accidentally tightened down over the horse's withers. What is necessary is the open channel of no pressure that goes all around the horse's spine and withers even when the rider sits down. 

The issue with tightness and clearance occurs when you have a perfectly fitting saddle, but you add a pad that is too thick. This can take away all the clearance you had and distribute the weight right onto the horse's spine. I've heard it described as wearing shoes that fit perfectly, but then putting giant fat socks on which puts pressure on your feet. 

The spot on the pad which is compressed from the saddle is due to her being built downhill which puts more of your weight onto that part of your horse's body. Which is why Shims are recommended, to lift the front of the saddle enough to make it level even if her back is not. 

You are saying that pad you were riding in was 1/2 inch. But those are very thick shims, possibly even 1/2 inch thick. Which means the pad was 1 inch thick functionally. 

A shim is a relative change and the thickness of the shim needs to be considered. If the entire saddle is slightly downhill due to your horse's back, then you don't want to add a giant front shim and put the weight back so you are now sitting uphill. My horse needs very thin shims, only 1/2 inch thick to correct her downhill build. But her pad is only a thin cotton one, which means her correctly fitted saddle still fits. If I were to put a 3/4 inch thick pad plus a 1/2 inch thick shim, I'd lift the saddle right up off her back so the panels no longer sat down hugging either side of her spine. 

Are you sure the saddle fitter described bridging? A saddle that "fits perfectly" and also "bridges" does not make any sense. I am wondering if she meant to take out the middle shim only if you had the pad way forward over her withers so the middle shim was under the front of the saddle, just behind her shoulders. If a saddle actually bridged, I'd have it sold by next week. 

This is bridging, and it is not related to a downhill build, but to a tree that does not match your horse's back shape. It puts pressure on both the front and back of the horse.


----------



## greentree

I N E V E R recommended the saddle fitter. *I* kept saying..." Go, rewatch the video, find more on Goigle, LEARN what is correct, DO it YOURSELF". 

The ONLY way your are going to keep from CONSTANTLY getting RIPPED OFF by "horsemen" is to LEARN, and KNOW it yourself!!!

This is going to sound like a horrible thing to say, but it is the TRUTH......

Most of the "professionals" in the horse business are dishonest. Like politicians and used car salesmen, if their mouths are moving, they are lying. To your face, on the phone, on the internet. Welcome to the horse world.
If YOU have a dollar in YOUR pocket, it is their business to put it in THEIRS!!!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I N E V E R recommended the saddle fitter. *I* kept saying..." Go, rewatch the video, find more on Goigle, LEARN what is correct, DO it YOURSELF".
> 
> The ONLY way your are going to keep from CONSTANTLY getting RIPPED OFF by "horsemen" is to LEARN, and KNOW it yourself!!!
> 
> This is going to sound like a horrible thing to say, but it is the TRUTH......
> 
> Most of the "professionals" in the horse business are dishonest. Like politicians and used car salesmen, if their mouths are moving, they are lying. To your face, on the phone, on the internet. Welcome to the horse world.
> If YOU have a dollar in YOUR pocket, it is their business to put it in THEIRS!!!


I AM SO UPSET RIGHT NOW!!! Not at you, not at any of you, I'm just flustered! I don't know what exactly has gone on in the past 48 hours.

Yes I could have educated myself , but the thing is a saddle fitter has the education and many many years of knowledge to back it up. I don't. They've gone to school for it, I haven't. So unless I was willing to go to school for saddle fitting, I won't ever have knowledge anything close to a fitter would.

So are you saying that my fitter is completely full of ****?

I just don't get why she would say all this about the clearance between the pad and saddle, when she doesn't even make or sell pads. So when she "claimed" that I "NEEDED" a new pad with shims, it's not like she would be selling me one anyways. I would be going to the store, and it's a store that she doesn't associate with or own. So how does she get any bonus, incentive or commision from it? I don't get it. Now, if she did make her own pads and was saying all this to get me to buy one of her pads, THEN I could see it, but I'm just so flustered right now.

I don't want to be jumping the gun here, (yes there are red flags about this specific fitter), but do you think I just got ripped off and taken advantage of?

I will admit, she still teach me an awful lot, but if some of the stuff that she has told me doesn't is incorrect, then she is not a good fitter.

1) She suggested Pro Choice. 
2) The comment about how my current cinch puts pressure on Fly's vein when done up. (Again, not sure exactly what vein she is talking about, I should have dug a bit more)
3) The whole clearance between the front of the pad and front of the saddle when weight is on Fly.
4) 30" pad would fit Fly. Okay perhaps the 30" does fit Fly, but it's not the best fit for her. And IMO it's borderline, and you have to have more pad up front with a 30" on Fly, than you usually would see on a horse. Why settle for having to do this when I can just get a 28" to begin with?

Afterall, she is a saddle fitter and maker, I would think her logic and goal with her clients is to not just fit a "good" fit" but the "best" fit available. Plus Im surprised that she never mentioned anything about a squared Diamond 30" pad looking ridiculous or be too much pad with this specific barrel saddle since it has a rounded skirt. I would think that she would have. As you all saw from my pics, a 30" Diamond squared pad clearly is not a good pad for this specific. It looks so ridiculous its not even funny.

NOW, before you guys harp on my trainer (because Im sure she will be brought up again at some point), I MUST SAY ONE THING FIRST.

Yesterday when I was talking to her about how the fitter said I needed more clearance between the front of the pad and saddle. She gave me a serious look and pretty much said the same thing as you "Gottatrot"....like "huh?" She had no clue what the fitter meant behind it. And that's why she then asked me if I felt this fitter did a good job on fitting this saddle and I said yes. She said "ok". I know she didn't agree with me but she understood that my opinion is my opinion and she can't do much to change it.

I will say one thing and I know many of you will disagree. But I know deep down that she is just trying to look out for me. She knows that I learned my lesson (unfortunately the hard way) when I went to the bit clinic and bought the Myler bit for nothing.


----------



## greentree

Did you DO as I suggested, and ask ,"WHY?" After everything she said??? 
Everytime someone, even your trainer, says , "We put " this" , "here", you ask " WHY". 

You seem to do that here on the forum, but apparently not in real life. 

Hoofpic, darling, every one of those things in that tack shop was made to attrack YOU, and 95% of them have NO REAL NEED for the horse. Even the SADDLE. You could ride bareback. 

Just think about my dollar in your pocket story every time they say, "You NEED....." , and ASK WHY.

And, red flags are supposed to come up BEFORE you hand over the money....


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## egrogan

Could she have said the girth was pinching a NERVE, not a vein?


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## greentree

Ran out of edit time.....

And...I do NOT believe for one SECOND that she went any "saddle fitting school".


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> I think you might not be understanding this correctly. Horses don't need any clearance between pad and saddle. The pad and saddle hopefully become one entity that together provide weight distribution and spinal clearance.
> 
> There is never need for testing clearance between a pad and saddle. You need to test clearance between the pad/saddle entity and the horse. If you had the perfect pad, you could glue it tightly up into the channel or gullet of your saddle, and that would actually help ensure the pad never accidentally tightened down over the horse's withers. What is necessary is the open channel of no pressure that goes all around the horse's spine and withers even when the rider sits down.


Thank you, that helps a lot. So there is no such thing as checking clearance between the front of the pad and saddle, its between the pad and horse. I even asked the fitter twice on where I am sliding my fingers through to check and she said "between the pad and saddle". I even watched her doing it and this is what she did. Pad and saddle, not pad and horse.



> The issue with tightness and clearance occurs when you have a perfectly fitting saddle, but you add a pad that is too thick. This can take away all the clearance you had and distribute the weight right onto the horse's spine. I've heard it described as wearing shoes that fit perfectly, but then putting giant fat socks on which puts pressure on your feet.


I've heard this too but I'm confident that even my original 3/4" pad isn't too thick for Fly and this saddle. I will still try to find a 1/2" shimmed pad, but if I can only find 3/4", then I don't think its a big deal.



> The spot on the pad which is compressed from the saddle is due to her being built downhill which puts more of your weight onto that part of your horse's body. Which is why Shims are recommended, to lift the front of the saddle enough to make it level even if her back is not.


Yes I agree.



> You are saying that pad you were riding in was 1/2 inch. But those are very thick shims, possibly even 1/2 inch thick. Which means the pad was 1 inch thick functionally.


Even though I had ONLY the middle shim in it? 



> A shim is a relative change and the thickness of the shim needs to be considered. If the entire saddle is slightly downhill due to your horse's back, then you don't want to add a giant front shim and put the weight back so you are now sitting uphill. My horse needs very thin shims, only 1/2 inch thick to correct her downhill build. But her pad is only a thin cotton one, which means her correctly fitted saddle still fits. If I were to put a 3/4 inch thick pad plus a 1/2 inch thick shim, I'd lift the saddle right up off her back so the panels no longer sat down hugging either side of her spine.


I JUST started looking into and reading about the thickness of shims yesterday and learning more about it. 

I am completely shocked that my fitter did not mention anything about the thickness of shims and what you just mentioned. I have a feeling that the shims on that Diamond pad yesterday were too thick.

HOWEVER, the good news is that last night when I was returning the two pads back to the tack shop, I did end up picking up standalone shims. They are wither shims and this is all that had. They have one edge thicker than the other and you can stick them two together to form a shim that is equal in height from front to back. It is not felt though, it's memory foam. I didnt know if this was bad, but I can still return it if it doesnt work.



> Are you sure the saddle fitter described bridging? A saddle that "fits perfectly" and also "bridges" does not make any sense. I am wondering if she meant to take out the middle shim only if you had the pad way forward over her withers so the middle shim was under the front of the saddle, just behind her shoulders. If a saddle actually bridged, I'd have it sold by next week.
> 
> This is bridging, and it is not related to a downhill build, but to a tree that does not match your horse's back shape. It puts pressure on both the front and back of the horse.


Yes, I asked her quite a bit about this. She said that right under the gullet , when I sit on Fly, the saddle is not making enough contact with Flys body. She mentioned nothing about any points behind the gullet or anywhere on Fly's back where I'm putting too much pressure.

So she said I need to fill this bridge so that it's making more contact and it will cause the front of the saddle to lift a bit when weight is on Fly and it will allow her to feel more of my weight in the back of the seat.

When I had the pad on Fly yesterday, the middle shim was actually right under the gullet (exactly where the bridge is show in your pic and where the fitter pointed out) and the front shim was at her wither. The middle shim was so big on this pad that it covered a lot of area.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Did you DO as I suggested, and ask ,"WHY?" After everything she said???
> Everytime someone, even your trainer, says , "We put " this" , "here", you ask " WHY".


I'm sorry I did NOT. I regret it. She just kept talking and I was listening. I know it's hard with fitters to do all that in one hour. I am sorry for letting you down. BUt you are right, I REALLY need to start doing this and with everyone.



> Hoofpic, darling, every one of those things in that tack shop was made to attrack YOU, and 95% of them have NO REAL NEED for the horse. Even the SADDLE. You could ride bareback.
> 
> Just think about my dollar in your pocket story every time they say, "You NEED....." , and ASK WHY.
> 
> And, red flags are supposed to come up BEFORE you hand over the money....


I get it but again, why would she try to get me to get a new pad when I'm not even buying from her?

I will mention one thing that I felt I probably should have mentioned the first day.

Have you ever heard of a fitter label a saddle fitting to a horse as "maximum" and "minimal" tolerance in terms of how bad the fitting problem is? This is how she labels it.

For instance, my old saddle's tree is too wide on Fly. Because of this and because of Fly being downhill, I would think getting a shimmable pad would be all I need to address the problem.

She puts the old saddle on and said it was a "max" tolerance fit meaning that is the maximum tolerance that Fly could handle with that saddle on.

She puts the new saddle on and said it was a "min" tolerance fit meaning that is the least tolerance that Fly could handle with that saddle on.

Any chance she said this just to get me to buy the new saddle? EVEN THOUGH it's NOT from her?


----------



## natisha

Here's what I know about riding a downhill horse. You are riding a downhill horse, get used to it.
Fly didn't feel downhill when the saddle was perched on her shoulder (compressed areas on pad) but if she does now so be it, better than riding her shoulder.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Here's what I know about riding a downhill horse. You are riding a downhill horse, get used to it.
> Fly didn't feel downhill when the saddle was perched on her shoulder (compressed areas on pad) but if she does now so be it, better than riding her shoulder.


So are you saying that even after I find a new pad that does lift the pad up a bit, if I still get a bit of pressure on her withers, it's not the end of the world and it's not as bad as it sounds?

See that's what makes me second guess now on whether my old saddle was as bad of a fit as the fitter said it was. Maybe she exaggerated it just so she could possibly get me to consider buying one of her saddles.

I mean if she came and said "Oh this old saddle is a minimal tolerance saddle" and getting a shimmed pad would be all I need, then that ends the visit right that second and no potential future visits for her or a saddle from her. See what Im getting at here?

Because looking back, I actually think the massage lady was more accurate with her thoughts on my old saddle. Yes it was too wide at the front, but it could be far FAR worse and with a shimmable pad, it could be all I need.

And like my massage lady said, IF the old saddle was indeed causing so much pressure and discomfort on Fly's withers from the front of the saddle and pad putting so much pressure on her withers, then Fly would have told her when she was massaging her withers in the massage session. Fly didnt react at all and wasnt even tight in her withers. She does have a good point.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic, the reason you get "taken" by saddle fitters, sales people and the like is because, despite everyone's advice for you to learn, you don't know correct terms and how to use them. It keeps you from asking proper questions and understanding answers. That tells everyone that you don't know anything so they can tell you ANYTHING and you will believe it. You are a sales person's dream. If you don't study you will not pass the test.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> Hoofpic, the reason you get "taken" by saddle fitters, sales people and the like is because, despite everyone's advice for you to learn, you don't know correct terms and how to use them. It keeps you from asking proper questions and understanding answers. That tells everyone that you don't know anything so they can tell you ANYTHING and you will believe it. You are a sales person's dream. If you don't study you will not pass the test.


I know and that is my fault. But still these saddle fitters should be people that you can rely on when you need a saddle fitted. Same with mechanics. I know more about cars than I do saddles but I'm in no way wrench savvy. Thankfully, I have a honest trustworthy mechanic who does all the work for me and I know he won't take advantage of me. I have gone to him for years. He does favours for me and I always return them, because he is not all about money. He is all about his reputation, honesty, trust, safety and having the job done right. And for the quality of work that he does, he under charges. He goes out of his way for me because he knows that I return the favour by showing my appreciation. Finding a mechanic like him is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Do you think its safe to say that this fitter took advantage of me and just isn't one who knows a whole lot?

And Ill say it again, maybe all I need is a new pad for the old saddle. I do truly believe that she totally over exaggerated the fit of the old saddle on Fly. 

I'm heading to the tack shop soon to see what they have for pads.

Only 7 days to try out a saddle is IMO very poor. That's barely enough time. Am I expected to ride every day for the next 7 days to fully decide if I want to keep this saddle?


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> So are you saying that even after I find a new pad that does lift the pad up a bit, if I still get a bit of pressure on her withers, it's not the end of the world and it's not as bad as it sounds?
> 
> See that's what makes me second guess now on whether my old saddle was as bad of a fit as the fitter said it was. Maybe she exaggerated it just so she could possibly get me to consider buying one of her saddles.
> 
> I mean if she came and said "Oh this old saddle is a minimal tolerance saddle" and getting a shimmed pad would be all I need, then that ends the visit right that second and no potential future visits for her or a saddle from her. See what Im getting at here?
> 
> Because looking back, I actually think the massage lady was more accurate with her thoughts on my old saddle. Yes it was too wide at the front, but it could be far FAR worse and with a shimmable pad, it could be all I need.
> 
> And like my massage lady said, IF the old saddle was indeed causing so much pressure and discomfort on Fly's withers from the front of the saddle and pad putting so much pressure on her withers, then Fly would have told her when she was massaging her withers in the massage session. Fly didnt react at all and wasnt even tight in her withers. She does have a good point.


Her withers? Her withers were never the issue except for pulling the pad up & off of it, which should now be resolved.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I know and that is my fault. But still these saddle fitters should be people that you can rely on when you need a saddle fitted. Same with mechanics. I know more about cars than I do saddles but I'm in no way wrench savvy. Thankfully, I have a honest trustworthy mechanic who does all the work for me and I know he won't take advantage of me. I have gone to him for years. He does favours for me and I always return them, because he is not all about money. He is all about his reputation, honesty, trust, safety and having the job done right. And for the quality of work that he does, he under charges. He goes out of his way for me because he knows that I return the favour by showing my appreciation. Finding a mechanic like him is like finding a needle in a haystack.
> 
> Do you think its safe to say that this fitter took advantage of me and just isn't one who knows a whole lot?
> 
> And Ill say it again, maybe all I need is a new pad for the old saddle.
> 
> I'm heading to the tack shop soon to see what they have for pads.
> 
> Only 7 days to try out a saddle is IMO very poor. That's barely enough time. Am I expected to ride every day for the next 7 days to fully decide if I want to keep this saddle?


One ride should do it. The 7 days are for you to find time for that one ride.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Her withers? Her withers were never the issue except for pulling the pad up & off of it, which should now be resolved.


According to the fitter on Friday, she said that too much pressure is barring on Fly's withers when weight is on her. She even showed me on my current 3/4" Diamond pad. She turned it over and you could see where it was applying more pressure.

Are you saying that if all I had done was pull the front of the pad up towards the sky, it would prevent it? If that's the case then I can return this saddle, and just get a new pad with shims.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> One ride should do it. The 7 days are for you to find time for that one ride.


Well I still think 7 days is very poor. 

IMO buying a saddle is no different than buying a TV. Just because you may enjoy it the first time you use it, doesn't mean you will in a weeks time. 

There are lots of electronics that I've bought in my life where i was in love with it at first, then after a few days my thoughts completely changed and I returned it. 

I think you need at least a few rides in a new saddle to fully make the call on whether its worth it or not. Obviously it depends on the rider and what exactly they are doing, but still.

And you know what? If I have to go out to the barn for the next 5 days to ride Fly, to be absolutely sure if I want this new saddle or not, then so be it. I sure hope this won't be the case, obviously I would like to get this settled ASAP, but just saying.


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## bsms

If the horse is downhill, and you pad up the front, that is for the rider, not the horse. The horse is still downhill. The saddle will still have a tendency to slide forward some. And frankly, so what? Things do tend to slide down hills. All you can do to reduce it is A) Increase the amount of surface area providing friction, and B) Increase the friction. Pads can level the seat for you, but it won't change the horse. And some custom saddle tree makers say a custom built saddle tree wouldn't change it - for the horse.

Does it matter?

At a high level of competition, probably. Heck, what do I know? I've never tried the lowest levels of competition!

For general riding? Get used to it.

I don't ride any demanding trails, but I also rarely ride on level ground. I live on the alluvial fan of a mountain. Gullies everywhere. Ridges everywhere. When jogging, I learned soon after we got here that level spots are only found in the bottom of the gully or the crest of a ridge. As a result, my horse is always going uphill or downhill.

Even if the saddle fit isn't great, the saddle doesn't move a lot. My daughter rides our Appy/Arabian in a saddle that is both too wide for him and has too much rock. The fiberglass form in this photo fits her saddle perfectly, while the tree fits Trooper (and Mia) extremely well - so yeah, Trooper's saddle doesn't fit perfect. 








​ 
But 875 lb Trooper (vet's estimate) has carried a 210 lb guy in her saddle, up the hills and down them, for three hours, and he showed no signs of soreness. He even did that once with an even bigger guy who had never ridden before. We gave Troop the next few days off, but I rubbed his back and watched him and didn't see any signs of soreness. And Trooper looked alert and relaxed at the end (although Trooper IS a stoic horse).

If you ride him in that saddle down a slope steep enough that he has to test each foot he moves, it doesn't slide noticeably forward. I'd be willing to spring for another saddle, but my daughter insists on that one - and Trooper does fine in it:








​ 
If Fly is downhill, get a saddle that matches the angles and curves of her back - SADDLE TO HORSE BACK. Get one with surface area. Then slap a 1" wool felt pad (or 3/4 inch wool felt pad) under it and go ride. You are not working cattle. You are not roping. You are not riding 40+ miles a day. Your riding needs are no more demanding than mine.

*Western saddle fitting comes down to no poking and even pressure distribution. No poking is the more important. It really is that simple.* 

Without any pad, does your saddle match Fly's back reasonably well in angle and curve? And "reasonably" is defined as no poking and distributing the weight over as much or more of her back than an English saddle would. If so, then a 3/4" or 1" wool felt pad is all you need.

English saddles have padding built in. Western do not. And from what I've seen and felt, having some extra pad sticking out the front and back is a GOOD thing with western saddles. Or you can buy a 1/2" wool felt pad and cover it with one of these:








​ 
http://www.statelinetack.com/item/mayatex-las-cruces-nz-wool-saddle-blanket/E017605/

34" long. About 3/8" thick. Pure NZ wool. Lots of color options. Use a different one for each season if you wish. Let the English riders at your barn drool with envy. Or laugh. Who cares? Show them this picture of Mia and laugh together. FWIW? Mia rode fine like this:








​


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## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> I know and that is my fault. But still these saddle fitters should be people that you can rely on when you need a saddle fitted.


Well yes, but you also have to have your own knowledge to make an informed decision. This person is not your parent. Take what she told you, decide if it makes sense based on what you know. You were singing her praises until anonymous internet strangers gave you a different opinion. You were the only one who was there in person, and this is all your call.



> Only 7 days to try out a saddle is IMO very poor. That's barely enough time. Am I expected to ride every day for the next 7 days to fully decide if I want to keep this saddle?


This is ridiculous. Many places won't give you a trial at all. I've dealt with a couple of high end consignors, you get five days and pay shipping there and back if you don't want it. I would not be complaining if I were you. If it takes you 7 rides to decide if you like it, then that's fine, that's what it takes. I find it hard to believe you need more than that to decide.


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## tinaev

7 days is MORE than enough time for a trial on a saddle. Remember, stores exist to sell things. If everyone that wanted to buy a saddle kept it for weeks on end then returned it for whatever arbitrary reason these stores would go out of business and we would all have to buy saddles online. Most of the tack stores here don't even do a trial, if you buy the saddle you BUY the saddle and if it doesn't work out you can resell it yourself. One shop gives 24 hours and another in the big city a couple hours away will give 72. 

You have got to stop rushing into purchasing decisions and then freaking out about them later. When you feel you need to buy something new do yourself a favor and stop and think about it for a week before you buy. Take that time to mess with your existing tack (that $10 pad I linked could have saved you several hundred dollars while you figure this out), research what you want to buy to ensure that it will do what you think it will, and above all else realize that every single professional is going to have a different opinion. That doesn't make them wrong and a cheat, it's a professional opinion built on their years of experience. This is why lots of people get second opinions from doctors. 

At this point if I were you I would keep the saddle and use it for a while. You really liked it when you first bought it. If it winds up not working out you can sell it later on. If I've learned anything from my adventures with horses it's that whatever I sell this week I will inevitably need next week.


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## Hoofpic

Tina, sorry I must have missed your link for the $10 pad, could you kindly repostit? Thanks kindly.

Ill reply in a bit, off to the tack shop.

Yes you are right, I really like the saddle but I dont want to buy stuff that i dont need (if this is the case).

If i keep it, ill also have to get the stirrups twisted.

I dont know what was going on yesterday but my inside leg was scraping the fenders and i have some irritated skin.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Tina, sorry I must have missed your link for the $10 pad, could you kindly repostit? Thanks kindly.
> 
> Ill reply in a bit, off to the tack shop.
> 
> Yes you are right, I really like the saddle but I dont want to buy stuff that i dont need (if this is the case).
> 
> If i keep it, ill also have to get the stirrups twisted.
> 
> I dont know what was going on yesterday but my inside leg was scraping the fenders and i have some irritated skin.


That could be because the fenders need to be pushed up higher into the saddle at least until those 3 rivets are not seen. That will give you more room between the bottom of the fenders & the tops of the stirrups.


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## jenkat86

Hoofpic, what exactly is preventing you from learning saddle fit so you can stop depending on the "professionals?"

All of us on this forum have given you TONS of valuable resources. None of us have got to school for saddle fitting, yet are knowledgeable enough to know what works and what doesn't...why is that?


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> that could be because the fenders need to be pushed up higher into the saddle at least until those 3 rivets are not seen. That will give you more room between the bottom of the fenders & the tops of the stirrups.


Oh and I should be able to do this myself, as I think I may have done this on the previous one.

What 3 rivets are you talking about?


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Hoofpic, what exactly is preventing you from learning saddle fit so you can stop depending on the "professionals?"
> 
> All of us on this forum have given you TONS of valuable resources. None of us have got to school for saddle fitting, yet are knowledgeable enough to know what works and what doesn't...why is that?


I do plan on meeting with a saddle maker or fitter and spending an afternoon or few hours with them once I find one.

And next April I plan on attending the Mane Event again on all four days. This will be a glorioius time for me to talk with the saddle makers there.

But in the meantime, its reading.


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## Hoofpic

Im at the tack shop and the owner is saying that if a saddle fits, you wont need a shimmed pad. This same thing my trainer said yesterday too.

The owner said that if a saddle fits a horse, regardless of them being downhill, they shouldnt need a shimmed pad. Of course there are exceptions but in most cases this is the case.

She said she just doesnt want to see me spending money on something i dont need.

She said i should consider getting a saddle with a wide tree like this.

Only thing is, this is custom. This is what the fitter mentioned too when she said a cowhorse saddle would fit Fly perfect.


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## DraftyAiresMum

This is my saddle. It's an older Tex Tan Hereford. Weighs about 30lbs. As you can see by the way the back pops up, it's a bit wide. BUT, the bar angle is pretty spot-on. 




Even though my gelding is 7, as a draft cross, I know he's going to bulk up more. So, I'm willing to deal with a little extra width since I know he's going to fill into it. 

This is the saddle with a 1/2" Diamond Wool cowboy contoured pad. It's a TRUE 1/2" pad. Sucker is super thin. Only thing I've seen thinner is a liner pad. 


I don't want to add any more bulk under the rest of the saddle if I can help it, I just need to shim up the front of the saddle so it'll be filled in. That's why I got one of these: http://www.horse.com/item/roma-protek-saddle-pad-with-lift-front/E006321/ Paid $20 including shipping for mine, as I got it on a really good sale. It helps raise up the front of the saddle and level it out. Instead of shelling out another $100+ for a "special" pad, I figured out what would work. 

Why don't you take pics of your saddle on Fly, similar to the ones I posted, and post them here? Make sure you take them with no pad under the saddle and the saddle not cinched up.

WHY are these people suggesting a WIDER tree?! That makes zero sense, unless the saddle you have is too narrow. Fly looks to be pretty narrowly built. Do you know what size tree the barrel saddle is built on? The saddle I have is FQHB and it's a little too wide for my 17hh draft cross. I doubt Fly needs FQHB.

Another thing you could do, if the saddle continues to slide forward, even though it fits, is consider a crupper or breeching. They're not just for mules. @smrobs uses one on her pony because he's built like a potato, so her saddle slides forward constantly.


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## Hoofpic

However, the shop owner did say that because my new saddle is so short, if Fly bridged under the gullet on the old saddle, it wont be nearly as bad on the new one because of how short the saddle is from front to back.

(i showed a pic of the new saddle on Fly).


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## DraftyAiresMum

Bridging is bad, regardless of how short or long the saddle is. It's like carrying a backpack that's digging into your hips and shoulders, but has no contact in the middle. It means the tree is the wrong shape and has the wrong amount of rock for your horse's back.


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## tinaev

This was the original item I linked: http://www.horse.com/item/western-fleece-wider-wither-pad/WIP06/ but there are many like it made out of different materials and in different thicknesses. Not a permanent solution but it can be very helpful in keeping the horse comfortable while you research and saddle shop.


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## Hoofpic

Just recorded my ride. No problems at all with saddle slipping, not even one adjustment. The tree stayed in the centre.

Greentree - it says "Sulphur ok" on the saddle.


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## Hoofpic

Honestly, I think this saddle is a keeper. Its amazing how much better the saddle stayed when i went to my 3/4" diamond.

Not sure if I need to ride too many more times in it to test in the 7 days.

I just need to do something about the saddle rubbing against the inside of my knee. Its not very pleasant.

I got 7" on each side of the cinch (when done up tight)! I dont think the cinch is too big now.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Adjust your fenders and you won't have a problem. You shouldn't be able to see the rivets at the top of the fender. They should be tucked up under the jockey. That will keep them from rubbing and keep them away from your knee (which makes me wonder how short your stirrups are if your knees are rubbing them in the first place...).


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Bridging is bad, regardless of how short or long the saddle is. It's like carrying a backpack that's digging into your hips and shoulders, but has no contact in the middle. It means the tree is the wrong shape and has the wrong amount of rock for your horse's back.


Thanks. Who knows, maybe Fly doesnt have any bridging.


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## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> This was the original item I linked: http://www.horse.com/item/western-fleece-wider-wither-pad/WIP06/ but there are many like it made out of different materials and in different thicknesses. Not a permanent solution but it can be very helpful in keeping the horse comfortable while you research and saddle shop.


Thanks Tina, its worth checking out id say.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. Who knows, maybe Fly doesnt have any bridging.


It doesn't look like there's any bridging going on in the pics. Hard to tell, though. If there was bridging, when you rode with the pillow case, there would have been dry/clean spots under the middle of the saddle.


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## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> I will check tomorrow. What does this define though?


Whether it is a real billy cook, or a simco with his name on it


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## Hoofpic

From today, Fly was SO good, just stood there, very patient.

Just saddle, no pad


















Cinched up


























i measured dead on 7 inches on each side after cinched up tight. I think its safe to say that this cinch is NOT good big for Fly.


















After the ride. Notice the white just where the front edge of the saddle sits.

This is what the fitter was showing me. Not sure if this is something to worry about.


























So yesterday the saddle kept shifting left and right and I had to keep readjusting. Today, I didnt have to adjust it once. The tree stayed dead centre. I think its safe to say that the culprit was the pad I was using yesterday.

Also, I spent some time playing around with the pad on her and finding the sweet spot, and I found it! Then I did the same thing but with just the saddle. I found it too!

What I did for both the saddle and pad was, I put it on her more forward than it usually sits, then just lightly shifted it back with both hands until I felt it slide into place and it picked up resistance.

After all this time, I finally found the sweet spot and I know exactly where to put the saddle and pad. 

I think the positioning looks good, dont you think.

Saddle is behind the scapula and the pad is in the sweet spot.


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## greentree

I sold my barrel saddle because it buried the inside of my knees...you may not be able to fix it...

The Billy Cook brand was not trademarked at one time, and some of his saddle makers went out on their own, but used his name . So he trademarked the "Billy Cook,Sulphur,OK" , and those are the saddles actually made by his shop. 

My western saddle is a Billy Cook, so is DH's...mine is a Reiner, I think. His is a cutting saddle that weighs about 70 lbs!!


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> From today, Fly was SO good, just stood there, very patient.
> 
> Just saddle, no pad
> 
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> 
> i measured dead on 7 inches on each side after cinched up tight. I think its safe to say that this cinch is NOT good big for Fly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> After the ride. Notice the white just where the front edge of the saddle sits.
> 
> This is what the fitter was showing me. Not sure if this is something to worry about.
> 
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> So yesterday the saddle kept shifting left and right and I had to keep readjusting. Today, I didnt have to adjust it once. The tree stayed dead centre. I think its safe to say that the culprit was the pad I was using yesterday.
> 
> Also, I spent some time playing around with the pad on her and finding the sweet spot, and I found it! Then I did the same thing but with just the saddle. I found it too!
> 
> What I did for both the saddle and pad was, I put it on her more forward than it usually sits, then just lightly shifted it back with both hands until I felt it slide into place and it picked up resistance.
> 
> After all this time, I finally found the sweet spot and I know exactly where to put the saddle and pad.
> 
> I think the positioning looks good, dont you think.
> 
> Saddle is behind the scapula and the pad is in the sweet spot.


Looks good. Now fix those fenders & you'll be all set.


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## greentree

To fix those fenders, you just pull like heck on the strap that has the buckle on it (underneath the fender). You can remove that keeper strap above the stirrup, if it is hindering the movement of the straps.


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## gottatrot

@DraftyAiresMum, I'd worry about your saddle touching the withers with a rider on. It doesn't look like there is more than the tiniest amount of space between the saddle and the withers in front. But of course any clearance is enough, and you might be light enough it doesn't drop any more when you get on.
@Hoofpic, It appears from your pictures that since your new saddle is shorter, you are avoiding the part of the horse's back that goes uphill/downhill. Your saddle now appears to sit level. If I were you, I'd continue riding with the pad in the photos and see if you run into any problems. Everything looks good. 

I'm not sure what the issue is with the cinch? You have room to tighten it more if you need to. It also is above your horse's elbows so won't interfere with her movement. Those are the only issues I know of. If a saddle has a real slipping problem, it can help to use a shorter cinch that tightens to just above a horse's elbows. 

I disagree slightly with @bsms and the issue of a downhill horse. It's not the saddle slipping forward that is a concern, that is most often not caused by downhill build but rather from a horse that has a large barrel, short girth groove, flat shoulder and wither. I've ridden several downhill horses that did not have issues with the saddle sliding forward down hills, because they had a big shoulder and wither that prevented the saddle from sliding. 

I've ridden several horses built level that had terrible problems with saddles sliding downhill, and it was due to the above mentioned problems. 

Of course, the worst nightmare horse (I have not run into yet, thankfully) would be one that was built downhill and also had a tiny girth groove, wide barrel, flat shoulder and no withers.

For me the issue is that in your daily riding if your saddle sits downhill, all your weight will be concentrated onto a small portion of the horse's anatomy, right behind the shoulders. This can make horses sore. That is why I would shim a saddle to make the saddle sit level, not for rider comfort or to keep the saddle in place. That is why I shim my horse's saddle pad. She has no issues with the saddle sliding forward. I just want to keep my weight evenly distributed over the entire saddle and not concentrated onto the front.


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## natisha

greentree said:


> To fix those fenders, you just pull like heck on the strap that has the buckle on it (underneath the fender). You can remove that keeper strap above the stirrup, if it is hindering the movement of the straps.


Yes! Does that strap have a name?
It may help if someone pushes up on the fender while another pulls on the strap.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I sold my barrel saddle because it buried the inside of my knees...you may not be able to fix it...
> 
> The Billy Cook brand was not trademarked at one time, and some of his saddle makers went out on their own, but used his name . So he trademarked the "Billy Cook,Sulphur,OK" , and those are the saddles actually made by his shop.
> 
> My western saddle is a Billy Cook, so is DH's...mine is a Reiner, I think. His is a cutting saddle that weighs about 70 lbs!!


That would suck. I sure hope the fenders are fixable on mine.

You will see in my video where I have my stirrups set. I had them two notches higher but my trainer from yesterdays lesson said to lower them so I did two notches.

When I was at the tack shop today, I saw one just like it but it had a squared back skirt and the owner asked how much I paid for mine, I told her $1000CDN and she said it's a good deal. They sell for $1900CDN new. 

Mine looks and feels brand new especially when I was in the store to compare it to a brand new one.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Looks good. Now fix those fenders & you'll be all set.


The saddles isn't too far forward on Fly? The white spots on the backside of the pad isnt a concern?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> To fix those fenders, you just pull like heck on the strap that has the buckle on it (underneath the fender). You can remove that keeper strap above the stirrup, if it is hindering the movement of the straps.


Thanks. I'm going to have to look up a video on how to do it. Not sure what this strap this is you are referring to.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I'm going to have to look up a video on how to do it. Not sure what this strap this is you are referring to.


The strap behind the fenders with the holes for stirrup adjustments. It makes a big loop with the fenders & goes up inside the saddle where you can't see it. Kind of like how you can slide a belt around your waist without undoing a belt buckle. Pull down on that strap while pushing up on the fenders.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> DraftyAiresMum[/MENTION], I'd worry about your saddle touching the withers with a rider on. It doesn't look like there is more than the tiniest amount of space between the saddle and the withers in front. But of course any clearance is enough, and you might be light enough it doesn't drop any more when you get on.


I did the check with my fingers when I got on Fly. I made her stand and tried to stick the tips of my fingers between her and the pad. I could easily get them in the very front (where I pulled the pad right up to the sky before tightening her cinch), but after that (with me on her) I couldn't get my fingers any further, unless I really REALLY tried then I could get them in a tiny bit. Is that normal? Of course when I'm off her, I can easily get my finger tips between her and the pad very easily, no problems.

Is this normal?

I also took some pics like BSMS requested. I turned up the exposure so hopefullt it helps. BSMS is this a good enough angle? I hope so.




















> It appears from your pictures that since your new saddle is shorter, you are avoiding the part of the horse's back that goes uphill/downhill. Your saddle now appears to sit level. If I were you, I'd continue riding with the pad in the photos and see if you run into any problems. Everything looks good.


Oh really? what part is this exactly? I can continue riding her with this saddle like this. It's great that I took pics for reference. I think a really short saddle like this could possibly be very beneficial for Fly because she has a short back.



> I'm not sure what the issue is with the cinch? You have room to tighten it more if you need to. It also is above your horse's elbows so won't interfere with her movement. Those are the only issues I know of. If a saddle has a real slipping problem, it can help to use a shorter cinch that tightens to just above a horse's elbows.


Well my fitter said my Classic Equine cinch (used in these pics) is 4" too long and I should drop down to a 28" (which is what the Billy Cook cinch that came with the saddle is at). I felt them both and I just much prefer the stiffer resistance on the Classic Equine. Plus I like the colour better. 

The saddle was slipping yesterday because of that 30" pad I was using. I used my pad today and it felt like I was in my old saddle again in terms of how solid it was. 100% it was the pad from yesterday. I didn't tighten that cinch any tighter today than yesterday.



> I disagree slightly with @bsms and the issue of a downhill horse. It's not the saddle slipping forward that is a concern, that is most often not caused by downhill build but rather from a horse that has a large barrel, short girth groove, flat shoulder and wither. I've ridden several downhill horses that did not have issues with the saddle sliding forward down hills, because they had a big shoulder and wither that prevented the saddle from sliding.
> 
> I've ridden several horses built level that had terrible problems with saddles sliding downhill, and it was due to the above mentioned problems.
> 
> Of course, the worst nightmare horse (I have not run into yet, thankfully) would be one that was built downhill and also had a tiny girth groove, wide barrel, flat shoulder and no withers.
> 
> For me the issue is that in your daily riding if your saddle sits downhill, all your weight will be concentrated onto a small portion of the horse's anatomy, right behind the shoulders. This can make horses sore. That is why I would shim a saddle to make the saddle sit level, not for rider comfort or to keep the saddle in place. That is why I shim my horse's saddle pad. She has no issues with the saddle sliding forward. I just want to keep my weight evenly distributed over the entire saddle and not concentrated onto the front.


That makes sense and I agree with you. Are the shims you use for your horse stand alone shims or a pad with shim pockets? 

I picked up a set of 2 shims last night when I was at the tack shop and wondering if these would do the trick. Obviously i would just stick them between the pad and saddle. How you get them to stay to the pad is beyond me. I will take a pic shortly.


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## DraftyAiresMum

@gottatrot, there's actually more clearance there than it looks like. His mane is so thick that it gets in the way, but I can easily fit three fingers in between his withers and the pommel. That and I was holding the phone at about neck-height on me to get the pics of the bar angle, so his withers are way above the phone level (his withers are just above eye-level on me and I'm 5'7"). Helps that he has basically no withers. lol With the riser pad in there, I can fit four fingers with a little room to spare. ;-)
@natisha, that strap does have a name. It's called the stirrup leather.


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## bsms

"So, how does the “downhillness” affect what we do with the tree? *It doesn’t really. We can’t change the horse and we can’t change gravity (which always works), so these horses will always be more prone to having the tree move too far forward on them if the saddle doesn’t fit well*.










We have heard some theories on how you can get the tree more level on a really downhill horse. ... No, none of these ways will level out the tree relative to the ground without having negative repercussions for the horse.

So we don’t adjust the way we build our trees when fitting a downhill horse compared to a more level horse. We make sure our customer knows that a downhill horse _may_ have more issues, and then we fit the body shape of the horse so there is lots of contact over a wide surface area to help keep the saddle it place..." - emphasis mine

Evaluating a horse's back for saddle fit - part one

This article I excerpted from the Nikkel's website is worth reading in its entirety.

In terms of rider feel: I've shimmed both my Australian and Western saddles in the front. I noticed the tilt a lot more with the Australian one. I'm guessing it is because the 3" western stirrup straps create more stability than the 1" English ones I used with the Australian saddle. Or maybe it was the difference in tree length, since a western saddle was designed to accept a steer attached to the horn, and that would create pressures far in excess of what any rider creates.

However, none of my horses are built downhill. I use them going down hills, and my Australian saddle is too wide in the front, so I either shimmed it or felt tilted forward. But that was a saddle fitting defect in my Aussie saddle.

It really doesn't look to me like Fly will need any shims. A cheap way to compare is to spend $20 on a Wintec pad, cut it in half, and try the front half under the saddle. That solution is more stable than the felt or fleece wither pads I tried.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> The strap behind the fenders with the holes for stirrup adjustments. It makes a big loop with the fenders & goes up inside the saddle where you can't see it. Kind of like how you can slide a belt around your waist without undoing a belt buckle. Pull down on that strap while pushing up on the fenders.


Oh okay thank you. I looked at it today and couldn't figure it out. I had no idea that fenders are brought up that way. Do I need to make my stirrups longer after I do this?

How far up do fenders sit?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Oh okay thank you. I looked at it today and couldn't figure it out. I had no idea that fenders are brought up that way. Do I need to make my stirrups longer after I do this?


It doesn't change the length of your stirrups. It just changes the position of the fender. Similar to how restringing your shoelaces doesn't change the overall length of your shoelaces, it just changes the positioning of them.

Look at the pic of my saddle. That's how your fender should look. The top of the fender should rest against the bar where the fender and stirrup leather thread through the tree.


----------



## Hoofpic

There was drama at the barn today but I did my best to tune it out. One of my friends was arguing with one of the barn helpers about something so stupid. I wasn't going to let anyone or anything get in the way of me doing what I planned on doing. Testing out the saddle and taking pictures and finding the sweet spots for the saddle and pad. 

The BO was out on the gator today for the first time since getting back home from the hospital. He won't be back to work for awhile but it was really nice to see him again. We talked and everyone talked to him and he doesn't know that I got a new saddle yet. He is still recovering and I wasn't going to ask him about needless things. So I talked to him for a bit and let him have his privacy.

The barn was busy today and everyone noticed my new saddle, all my new friends like it but I kept reminding them that I'm just "testing it out first". Yesterday was really raw in feeling it out but after today, I feel a lot more confident with it and that I do think it is a keeper. I will most likely need one more ride in it before Thursday and that will be my final ride to decide. But right now after today's ride, it felt so good. Obviously I am still adjusting to it but time will get me there. 

You know I can't stand people who just always have to make something negative out of something. One of my friends said that it's really nice and likes it a lot. Then all of a sudden one of the young girls saw it and the first thing she says is "Umm isn't that seat a bit small for you?" Ummm no it isn't! Then she just walks off without hearing what I had to say. If you are going to ask such a stupid question, then at least stay there to hear my answer. And no it's not too small. I prefer smaller seats. I have ridden in 16" seats before when I used to ride geldings and I was sliding around and didn't have as much comfort. I have no hips and no but so this allows me to sit in a smaller seat. 

But anyway, stupid comments like that just irritates me. You know, she could have said "Oh nice saddle"...."what kind is it?"...."where did you get it from?"....but instead just has to make a smart remark.


----------



## natisha

DraftyAiresMum said:


> @gottatrot, there's actually more clearance there than it looks like. His mane is so thick that it gets in the way, but I can easily fit three fingers in between his withers and the pommel. That and I was holding the phone at about neck-height on me to get the pics of the bar angle, so his withers are way above the phone level (his withers are just above eye-level on me and I'm 5'7"). Helps that he has basically no withers. lol With the riser pad in there, I can fit four fingers with a little room to spare. ;-)
> 
> @natisha, that strap does have a name. It's called the stirrup leather.


Well that's a good name for it. Thanks


----------



## paintedpastures

Hoofpic said:


> Well my fitter said my Classic Equine cinch (used in these pics) is 4" too long and I should drop down to a 28" (which is what the Billy Cook cinch that came with the saddle is at). I felt them both and I just much prefer the stiffer resistance on the Classic Equine. Plus I like the colour better.
> 
> The saddle was slipping yesterday because of that 30" pad I was using. I used my pad today and it felt like I was in my old saddle again in terms of how solid it was. 100% it was the pad from yesterday. I didn't tighten that cinch any tighter today than yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 28" sounds small for cinch. :eek_color: took my girl out to trainer for a refresher his saddle had a 32" & it was too small for her,she needs 34-36. Beefcake that she is ,lol


----------



## Hoofpic

paintedpastures said:


> 28" sounds small for cinch. :eek_color: took my girl out to trainer for a refresher his saddle had a 32" & it was too small for her,she needs 34-36. Beefcake that she is ,lol


That's what i thought too but she said all horses of Fly's size should be a 28" max. I personally don't think my 32" is too small. I got 7" on each side from the cinch buckle to the d-rings and the cinch right in the middle is right in the middle of Fly's chest. When we tried the 28" on Fly on Friday, the d-rings were literally 3 inches from the cinch buckles. I just don't get the logic behind my fitters reasoning that I need a 28. Same goes for her saying I should go with a 30" pad. She's wrong on both. If a saddle fitter was good, they wouldn't have made wrong calls on stuff like that. 

As you see in my pics today compared to yesterday, a 28" fits Fly that much better, it's a night and day difference. I could even put a 28" rounded skirt pad if i wanted and it would still be fine. 

I'm already upset for giving her $150 but at least I was able to confirm with her that this saddle indeed does fit Fly well.

But honestly, what a nightmare with the fitter. Good god. A forgettable experience and another lesson learned.


----------



## Hoofpic

Here are my shims. Has anyone used ones like these before?

They are wither shims (the store didn't have wither pads). As you can see the longest sides are angled so they arch up like a ramp. You stack them on top if you want an even height shim.

Together


















Just one


















Honestly though, I think $1000cdn for this saddle is a pretty decent deal. The saddle looks and feels brand new. So new that I'm not sure if I would need to put neatsfoot oil on it this early. 

I'm still curious as to how long it was used for but I can tell it wasn't used very much. I consider myself very lucky, I just happened to go to the tack shop at the right time and Im very glad that I chose to give this saddle a chance because I see this saddle selling quick. And according to the girls at the shop, this saddle just arrived in their store less than a month ago.

I said that I had nothing to lose making a trip to the tack store on my own and I made out pretty good.


----------



## greentree

IMO, there is nothing worse than new leather. The only good thing about it is the smel!!! I would be oiling that baby every day until it quit squeaking!!


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## StephaniHren

greentree said:


> IMO, there is nothing worse than new leather. The only good thing about it is the smel!!! I would be oiling that baby every day until it quit squeaking!!


BUT DO NOT OIL UNTIL YOU'RE SURE YOU'RE BUYING IT, HOOFPIC
/end capslock


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## Whinnie

If you buy it, before you pay for it, take it back to the shop and have them adjust the fenders.


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## Hoofpic

If you compare the old saddle to the new one, I think gottatrot could be right, in that the new one perhaps doesn't bridge.

See how much longer and further back the old saddle went on her?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> IMO, there is nothing worse than new leather. The only good thing about it is the smel!!! I would be oiling that baby every day until it quit squeaking!!


Hopefully it softens up fast. The one thing I notice is that the fenders are stiff.

Neatsfoot oil will not only clean and protect it but also soften it right?


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> BUT DO NOT OIL UNTIL YOU'RE SURE YOU'RE BUYING IT, HOOFPIC
> /end capslock


Don't worry I won't be oiling it right now. But it would be a fun saddle to oil mainly because it's a whole ton less than my old one.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> If you buy it, before you pay for it, take it back to the shop and have them adjust the fenders.


Well I already paid for it. The shops here you have to pay for it first and if you don't like it, they just refund you. 

If I go back to the shop, it's to bring in my old one for an appraisal. 

Hopefully they don't look for original stirrups because I put the tiny ones that came with the Billy Cook on the old saddle.

After Natisha's description, I'm confident that I can bring down the fenders on my own. The big question is how far down. You guys will see in my video today where my fenders and legs sat at. It rubs just inside the knee cap. 

The only odd thing is that it only did it on the right side, the left I didnt have an issue.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> It doesn't change the length of your stirrups. It just changes the position of the fender. Similar to how restringing your shoelaces doesn't change the overall length of your shoelaces, it just changes the positioning of them.
> 
> Look at the pic of my saddle. That's how your fender should look. The top of the fender should rest against the bar where the fender and stirrup leather thread through the tree.


Thanks, im going to save your pic and reference off it,


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Well I already paid for it. The shops here you have to pay for it first and if you don't like it, they just refund you.
> 
> If I go back to the shop, it's to bring in my old one for an appraisal.
> 
> Hopefully they don't look for original stirrups because I put the tiny ones that came with the Billy Cook on the old saddle.
> 
> After Natisha's description, I'm confident that I can bring down the fenders on my own. The big question is how far down. You guys will see in my video today where my fenders and legs sat at. It rubs just inside the knee cap.
> 
> The only odd thing is that it only did it on the right side, the left I didnt have an issue.


Up,up! Bring the fenders up.
They will stop on their own. The part it slides around will only fit the stirrup strap. The actual fender is too wide to keep going.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> It doesn't look like there's any bridging going on in the pics. Hard to tell, though. If there was bridging, when you rode with the pillow case, there would have been dry/clean spots under the middle of the saddle.


Actually yesterday I rode with a towel that was at the barn. It was dusty and all I had so it wouldn't have been good for testing. I should have put a pillowcase under the pad today. I will do this when I am out on Tuesday.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> Whether it is a real billy cook, or a simco with his name on it


Thanks. I also asked the tack shop owner today and she said if it says "sulfure ok" on it, then its a real billy cook, which mine does say that.


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## Hoofpic

Going by memory, I am 99.9% certain that when I put the new saddle on Fly (without the pad), and my fitter went to feel it, she said that it no longer bridged. The first thing she said was that it was a really really good fit and that the saddle doesn't sit downhill on her like the old saddle did. It's perfectly leveled and once we threw the pad under it, she was even more of a fan.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Going by memory, I am 99.9% certain that when I put the new saddle on Fly (without the pad), and my fitter went to feel it, she said that it no longer bridged. The first thing she said was that it was a really really good fit and that the saddle doesn't sit downhill on her like the old saddle did. It's perfectly leveled and once we threw the pad under it, she was even more of a fan.


Dude, did you take notes or not? We're getting such mixed messages from you.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This is my saddle. It's an older Tex Tan Hereford. Weighs about 30lbs. As you can see by the way the back pops up, it's a bit wide. BUT, the bar angle is pretty spot-on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even though my gelding is 7, as a draft cross, I know he's going to bulk up more. So, I'm willing to deal with a little extra width since I know he's going to fill into it.
> 
> This is the saddle with a 1/2" Diamond Wool cowboy contoured pad. It's a TRUE 1/2" pad. Sucker is super thin. Only thing I've seen thinner is a liner pad.
> 
> 
> I don't want to add any more bulk under the rest of the saddle if I can help it, I just need to shim up the front of the saddle so it'll be filled in. That's why I got one of these: http://www.horse.com/item/roma-protek-saddle-pad-with-lift-front/E006321/ Paid $20 including shipping for mine, as I got it on a really good sale. It helps raise up the front of the saddle and level it out. Instead of shelling out another $100+ for a "special" pad, I figured out what would work.
> 
> Why don't you take pics of your saddle on Fly, similar to the ones I posted, and post them here? Make sure you take them with no pad under the saddle and the saddle not cinched up.
> 
> WHY are these people suggesting a WIDER tree?! That makes zero sense, unless the saddle you have is too narrow. Fly looks to be pretty narrowly built. Do you know what size tree the barrel saddle is built on? The saddle I have is FQHB and it's a little too wide for my 17hh draft cross. I doubt Fly needs FQHB.
> 
> Another thing you could do, if the saddle continues to slide forward, even though it fits, is consider a crupper or breeching. They're not just for mules. @smrobs uses one on her pony because he's built like a potato, so her saddle slides forward constantly.


Thanks.

I am keeping that roma pad in my mind if I do infact need a shimmed pad. I could see it just going on top of the Diamond.

I don't know what size tree is on my barrel saddle, does it label it on the saddle?

The owner at the tack shop was suggesting (that if this Billy Cook barrel saddle didnt work out) I go with a wider tree because she said that it will fit a lot more horses due to the width of the fork and the fact there is nothing there right along the topline to put pressure on there as you sit.

She also said that the back bars on a wide tree won't dig into the loin of the horse because they are angled up.

Only bad thing is to get a wide tree, you need to go custom.


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## Hoofpic

This doesn't make sense. I looked up my saddle "Billy Cook 1540" and the tack shop where I got it from has it for $999cdn brand new. That's what I paid for a used one. If this is in fact true, would you return the used one and get a new one? Sorry I know it might be a dumb question.

Though I will say the condition of mine is pretty much brand new, you can't even tell, but still.

Or I can see if I can get a further discount on my used one. 

I'm just going to call in the morning to confirm but I'm almost certain I'm seeing right.


----------



## paintedpastures

your stirrup fenders look to be rough out leather,which isn't really meant to be oiled but rather brushed/dusted to clean. some people have oil conditioned but you have to be careful with how you do it it is not like the other leather.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Your tack shop lady is nuts. Nothing she told you makes sense. I honestly don't have the energy to go into all the issues with what she told you.

Maybe I'm cheap, but that seems like WAY too much for that saddle. I paid $350 for my Tex Tan.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Your tack shop lady is nuts. Nothing she told you makes sense. I honestly don't have the energy to go into all the issues with what she told you.
> 
> Maybe I'm cheap, but that seems like WAY too much for that saddle. I paid $350 for my Tex Tan.


The tack shop owner who told me all that wasnt the place where I got my Billy Cook saddle. So nothing she said is true?

Im going to call the shop first thing tomorrow to double check if my saddle brand new is the same price. If so, then I will ask for some sort of discount off my used one, if not then I will bring back the used one for a new one lol. Even though I will say this, I won't tell any difference what so ever since my used one pretty much looks and feels brand new. I don't even think it was used, perhaps it was a demo.

I have no problem keeping the used one but for a discount. Obviously no one in their right mind will choose a used one when brand new is the same price lol.

I would prefer to keep the used one, then it would save me from having to lug it down there and reswap the stirrups, readjust etc.


----------



## gottatrot

bsms said:


> We have heard some theories on how you can get the tree more level on a really downhill horse. ... No, none of these ways will level out the tree relative to the ground without having negative repercussions for the horse.
> 
> So we don’t adjust the way we build our trees when fitting a downhill horse compared to a more level horse. We make sure our customer knows that a downhill horse _may_ have more issues, and then we fit the body shape of the horse so there is lots of contact over a wide surface area to help keep the saddle it place..." - emphasis mine
> 
> It really doesn't look to me like Fly will need any shims.


I agree that I don't think Fly will need shims with the new saddle.

It sounds like in this case they are talking about a very downhill horse, and I will concede there are horses built so downhill that no shim would help without adding pressure or bridging. 
Such as this very downhill horse. However, if you had a very small saddle and rider, you could get it on an almost level section of the back.
Which is what I think is the case with Fly, a shorter saddle means it does not sit downhill. 









My mare that I use shims with is not actually downhill but _functionally_ downhill. Some disagree with this idea, but I believe in it since that is how it seems to work out in practical use. 
This link talks about how the skeleton of the horse can sit level, uphill or downhill regardless of their hip and wither height.
https://hoovesblog.com/2013/06/24/the-up-and-down-of-it-levelness-of-build/
On a functionally downhill or slightly downhill horse, adding shims can help keep the pressure more even on the horse's back, since even in a well fitting saddle the rider's weight will tend to concentrate more forward instead of disperse evenly. 

Since I am riding in a dressage saddle, I use this cotton pad:








The shims are very thin and only lift the front a little. I just use the front ones.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Dude, did you take notes or not? We're getting such mixed messages from you.


No I didn't take notes except my memory. She talked so much that I wouldn't be able to keep up with notes but yes she said that the new saddle doesn't bridge like the old one did. She said that the new saddle sits perfectly leveled on Fly.

The reason why she still suggested a new pad with shims (and she didn't suggest it until I got on her) is because she felt tightness between the the front of the pad and front of the saddle when I was on her. But then again, feeling inbetween the pad and saddle is completely the wrong spot, when it should have been between the pad and Fly. 

The thing that I need to double check on is whether or not I did the check with my fingertips correctly. I slipped my fingertips between the front of the pad and Fly.

Here is a mock up that I did. See the arrows? That is essentially where I tried to slip my finger tips in. But you see that line there? Once I got to that point (with my fingers under the pad), I couldn't really get my finger tips past that unless I really worked it.

I'm pretty sure that is normal (afterall, you are talking about your body weight on the entire saddle) but I just need to double check.

I know the second arrow looks like I put my fingers between the pad and saddle but no my fingers are under the pad the entire time.


----------



## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> I agree that I don't think Fly will need shims with the new saddle.


THanks for the pic of the shims.

I agree with you and bsms as well that I don't think Fly will need shims. I think I'm best off running with this saddle for now and see how it goes but Im confident that the fitter is correct and that it's a much better fit than the old saddle and that it fits Fly really really well mainly because of the shorter back, thus getting rid of the bridging.

Those shim pieces that I bought I think I will return them the next time I go back to the store.

This whole week has been an awful lot for me to take in. Not only was it ridiculously busy and lots of running around for me (massage, saddle fit, shopping for new saddle, lesson, all in one), I just hope I can avoid this from happening the next time around. Getting the saddle issue addressed became a top priority for me and I had to shuffle my schedule around so unfortunately I couldn't make it out to Peter Campbells clinic this past weekend. Oh well.

I don't know what it is, but I'm just sitting here rather annoyed with many people. I know my trainer (in her best interests) was just trying to look out for me, but it still bothers me that she questioned my choice for the new saddle and whether or not it does fit Fly when really, it was just ONE ride. Yes it was slipping, but again, it was ONE RIDE. Need to give it more time and what do you know, yesterday I didn't run into any issues. 

On Friday when I first tested it on Fly with me on her, I had no issues either and again that was with the old pad. That is why on Saturday after the lesson, I highly suspected that it was the 30" pad that was the cultrit. I did see her yesterday and I didnt tell her how well yesterday went with the saddle and my current pad, but next time I see her and if she asks I will. But I probably won't go out of my way to tell her.


----------



## gottatrot

The bars are supposed to sit as flat as possible against the horse's shoulder (and back) to distribute the rider's weight onto the horse's back. The flattest, most even pressure you can get there is ideal, which is why a saddle fitter will try to match the horse's shoulder angle as closely as possible.
The gullet is where you want space, to protect the horse's spine from pressure and damage. 
















We want the saddle to sit on the large back muscles:








While avoiding any pressure on the spine (If this poor horse didn't have severe "behavior problems" it would be incredible - and sad the horse would be that stoic):








This photo shows about how wide the spinous processes are and about how large of a space is needed between the bars in the gullet/channel.








Humans have learned that you can't ride a horse for long if you try riding on the spine rather than on the back muscles.


----------



## greentree

I am sorry that I cannot go back and put in quotes, but will try to answer a few questions...., however, I wish you would google this stuff, because you would learn from that, as it seems you learn VERY little by asking questions here!!!

Oiling DOES NOT CLEAN the leather, we use water and soap for that. Oil is used after water and soap, because water asnd soap DRAW OIL OUT, and it needs to be replaced. When leather dries out, it cracks and breaks, so stuff happens like, your stirrups fall off.

Do not go into that poor shop keeper and ask for a discount. REMEMBER your STATEMENT about your MECHANIC?????
If you like the saddle, keep it, otherwise, take it back.

And, I am completely confused about your shim concept.....I think you do not understand the concept, but I have no idea how to explain it to you.


----------



## jenkat86

greentree said:


> And, I am completely confused about your shim concept.....I think you do not understand the concept, but I have no idea how to explain it to you.


It should be that difficult...because a proper fitting saddle won't need shims. But what do we know?
@Hoofpic, I think this saddle is a better fit than the last one, but I don't think it's that great either. 

I think if you're really serious about getting a new saddle you need to slow down, and really do your research so you know what you are looking for and you know proper mechanics of fit and placement.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Im at the tack shop and the owner is saying that if a saddle fits, you wont need a shimmed pad. This same thing my trainer said yesterday too.
> 
> The owner said that if a saddle fits a horse, regardless of them being downhill, they shouldnt need a shimmed pad. Of course there are exceptions but in most cases this is the case.
> 
> She said she just doesnt want to see me spending money on something i dont need.
> 
> She said i should consider getting a saddle with a wide tree like this.
> 
> Only thing is, this is custom. This is what the fitter mentioned too when she said a cowhorse saddle would fit Fly perfect.


I just want to revisit this post...because there is a lot of good and bad here. 

The shop owner and your trainer are spot on here. If the saddle fits the horse- no need for a fancy pad. As @greentree said a few pages back, there were times when no pads were used, or very thin ones at that. 

There is more to a tree than how wide or narrow it is.

The saddle fitter is full of it if she suggested a cowhorse saddle to you. UNLESS SHE MEANT CUSTOM! Typically cowhorse saddles have long skirts. And like any saddle, you can get them in a narrow, wide, or regular width, with varying degrees for the bars. Cowhorse saddles typically have a deeper seat and pocket...which is the only reason I can think of as to why she would recommend one to you.


----------



## Whinnie

I think some of the problem here is that Hoofpic doesn't have the saddle vocabulary to understand the advice. After him being a horse owner for over a year, I don't understand that. Also, he has said several times that he has reading comprehension issues, so asking for written advice here and trying to understand the answers without hands on in person demo seems counter productive.

Another problem is that Hoofpic, you think you need a saddle right now, today. I think you should just take the saddle back before the 7 days is up and keep looking (IMO). I believe your equine massage therapist did not find terrible problems with Fly's back in relation to the saddle. and if you put it where it belongs on her back when you saddle you can get by for now until you find a great saddle. You will be kicking yourself in a month if you don't take a little time, look, and educate yourself. And that education is all on you.


----------



## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> The bars are supposed to sit as flat as possible against the horse's shoulder (and back) to distribute the rider's weight onto the horse's back. The flattest, most even pressure you can get there is ideal, which is why a saddle fitter will try to match the horse's shoulder angle as closely as possible.
> The gullet is where you want space, to protect the horse's spine from pressure and damage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We want the saddle to sit on the large back muscles:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While avoiding any pressure on the spine (If this poor horse didn't have severe "behavior problems" it would be incredible - and sad the horse would be that stoic):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This photo shows about how wide the spinous processes are and about how large of a space is needed between the bars in the gullet/channel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humans have learned that you can't ride a horse for long if you try riding on the spine rather than on the back muscles.


Thanks for the pics and explaination. This is what the shop owner was telling me yesterday as well that the bars need to sit as flat as possible against the horses shoulder to distribute your weight as evenly across their back.

So in this pic here of Fly, if Im correct then it looks good because there is clearance at the gullet and the front of the bars seem to be sitting against her shoulder well and flat.

I'm baffled as to why the fitter got me to check for clearance between the pad and saddle. Uhhh.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I am sorry that I cannot go back and put in quotes, but will try to answer a few questions...., however, I wish you would google this stuff, because you would learn from that, as it seems you learn VERY little by asking questions here!!!


I am and do (I will do much more now), but remember there is also a lot of bad info out there online.

In the long run I want to meet up with a great saddle fitter/maker and spend an afternoon or morning with them.



> Oiling DOES NOT CLEAN the leather, we use water and soap for that. Oil is used after water and soap, because water asnd soap DRAW OIL OUT, and it needs to be replaced. When leather dries out, it cracks and breaks, so stuff happens like, your stirrups fall off.


Sorry that was my fault, I just assumed that the neatsfoot oil cleans it as well, just like with shoes and coats.

So ideally, even with my old saddle I should have been using water and soap with it before applying the neatsfoot oil.



> Do not go into that poor shop keeper and ask for a discount. REMEMBER your STATEMENT about your MECHANIC?????
> If you like the saddle, keep it, otherwise, take it back.


I'm just going to confirm with them that they are selling my same saddle but brand new for the same price. Who knows, it could be a price error on their website. But no one would pay the same price for a used one (even if you put it right next to a new one and couldn't tell apart from the condition), than a brand new one. Used stuff is ALWAYS less cost than brand new even if it's a demo or used twice. If the brand new one is the same price, wow that's a smokin hot deal. This same saddle (but with a cornered skirt was $1900cdn brand new at the shop I was at yesterday).

If a new one is the same price and if they won't do a discount then I will return it for a brand new one. Though I would rather not have to do this if I can avoid it, that means putting the original stirrups back on, then switching them on the new one, and driving back up there again.



> And, I am completely confused about your shim concept.....I think you do not understand the concept, but I have no idea how to explain it to you.


I think my shim concept is correct, I'm understanding how they work.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> So in this pic here of Fly, if Im correct then it looks good because there is clearance at the gullet and the front of the bars seem to be sitting against her shoulder well and flat.
> 
> I'm baffled as to why the fitter got me to check for clearance between the pad and saddle. Uhhh.


We need to see this last picture without the pad. It looks like a pressure point right where the concho is


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> It should be that difficult...because a proper fitting saddle won't need shims. But what do we know?
> @Hoofpic, I think this saddle is a better fit than the last one, but I don't think it's that great either.
> 
> I think if you're really serious about getting a new saddle you need to slow down, and really do your research so you know what you are looking for and you know proper mechanics of fit and placement.


Can I ask why you don't think this saddle is a great fit on Fly? Just curious.



jenkat86 said:


> The shop owner and your trainer are spot on here. If the saddle fits the horse- no need for a fancy pad. As @greentree said a few pages back, there were times when no pads were used, or very thin ones at that.
> 
> There is more to a tree than how wide or narrow it is.


Yes both the shop owner from yesterday and my trainer are correct in that if a saddle fits, you shouldn't need a new pad or shims.

I'm completely baffled as to why my fitter suggested that I "need" it.



> The saddle fitter is full of it if she suggested a cowhorse saddle to you. UNLESS SHE MEANT CUSTOM! Typically cowhorse saddles have long skirts. And like any saddle, you can get them in a narrow, wide, or regular width, with varying degrees for the bars. Cowhorse saddles typically have a deeper seat and pocket...which is the only reason I can think of as to why she would recommend one to you.


She meant custom cowhorse saddle, which she would make. She mainly suggested a saddle with a wide tree because of the extra clearance.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Can I ask why you don't think this saddle is a great fit on Fly? Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes both the shop owner from yesterday and my trainer are correct in that if a saddle fits, you shouldn't need a new pad or shims.
> 
> I'm completely baffled as to why my fitter suggested that I "need" it.
> 
> 
> 
> She meant custom cowhorse saddle, which she would make. She mainly suggested a saddle with a wide tree because of the extra clearance.


See above post as to why I don't think it's a great fit. But again, it could be an illusion I'm seeing. I'd like to see that picture without the pad. 

Well, FWIW- you can get any type of saddle custom made with a wide tree. Doesn't just have to be a cowhorse saddle.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> See above post as to why I don't think it's a great fit. But again, it could be an illusion I'm seeing. I'd like to see that picture without the pad. .


I see what you mean now. Okay I will head to the barn this afternoon to throw it on her and take more pics. I will take it from both sides and I will take another look as well for how the concho sits on her. 



> Well, FWIW- you can get any type of saddle custom made with a wide tree. Doesn't just have to be a cowhorse saddle.


Yes, I was aware of this as well.


----------



## jenkat86

So @Hoofpic...I did some digging. 

It seems that this saddle fitter you had out doesn't in fact make custom saddles. She sells them. Don Rich of Tennessee makes these saddles...who is the same person "making" my cowhorse saddle. I say "making" because he's not the one personally putting the work in...his company is, but that's a whole 'nother conversation that we won't have today.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> So @Hoofpic...I did some digging.
> 
> It seems that this saddle fitter you had out doesn't in fact make custom saddles. She sells them. Don Rich of Tennessee makes these saddles...who is the same person "making" my cowhorse saddle. I say "making" because he's not the one personally putting the work in...his company is, but that's a whole 'nother conversation that we won't have today.


Thanks you for letting me know, how did you find this out? I tried to do some digging on the fitter I had out a couple days ago and couldn't find much aside from her Facebook and website. 

Don Rich of Tennessee is pretty big.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks you for letting me know, how did you find this out? I tried to do some digging on the fitter I had out a couple days ago and couldn't find much aside from her Facebook and website.
> 
> Don Rich of Tennessee is pretty big.


I went to her website and looked at the saddles she had available. All are Don Rich saddles.

And I'm not sure how/if she explained how custom saddles work. 

If you buy a cowhorse saddle from her, for example, and she says you can pick out seat size, and tooling...that's not really custom. 

A true custom saddle is when the tree is made for your horse (or you can find one that already fits) and then you work up from there.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> I went to her website and looked at the saddles she had available. All are Don Rich saddles.
> 
> And I'm not sure how/if she explained how custom saddles work.
> 
> If you buy a cowhorse saddle from her, for example, and she says you can pick out seat size, and tooling...that's not really custom.
> 
> A true custom saddle is when the tree is made for your horse (or you can find one that already fits) and then you work up from there.


She didn't explain any of that to me but the owner at the tack shop did with their custom saddles (hence me taking pics of their tree frames). The owner pulled out their tree frames from the back and said that they do an exact trace of the horses back and withers with this moldable white sheet (looked like moldable clay), then you tell them what kind of tree and saddle you are wanting and they send the trace off to their maker to have a tree made based off that frame, then they proceed to make the rest of the saddle.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I am and do (I will do much more now), but remember there is also a lot of bad info out there online.
> 
> *I seriously doubt you would find bad information by looking up diagrams of horse skeletal structure, the parts of a bridle, the parts of a saddle, saddle construction and horse anatomy. All of those things are vocabulary words you need to really know to understand advice given here. Even look up "rivets" so you can recognize what they look like. You may also be surprised to learn what "withers" are (as per skeletal structure) and then look again at your own post referring to "one wither being higher than the other"*
> 
> In the long run I want to meet up with a great saddle fitter/maker and spend an afternoon or morning with them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry that was my fault, I just assumed that the neatsfoot oil cleans it as well, just like with shoes and coats.
> 
> So ideally, even with my old saddle I should have been using water and soap with it before applying the neatsfoot oil.
> 
> *Be sure you know what kind of soap to use and how to use it ("How to clean a leather saddle", look it up).*
> 
> 
> I'm just going to confirm with them that they are selling my same saddle but brand new for the same price. Who knows, it could be a price error on their website. But no one would pay the same price for a used one (even if you put it right next to a new one and couldn't tell apart from the condition), than a brand new one. Used stuff is ALWAYS less cost than brand new even if it's a demo or used twice. If the brand new one is the same price, wow that's a smokin hot deal. This same saddle (but with a cornered skirt was $1900cdn brand new at the shop I was at yesterday).
> 
> If a new one is the same price and if they won't do a discount then I will return it for a brand new one. Though I would rather not have to do this if I can avoid it, that means putting the original stirrups back on, then switching them on the new one, and driving back up there again.
> 
> 
> 
> I think my shim concept is correct, I'm understanding how they work.


Time to study and research.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> Time to study and research.


I will be forsure.


----------



## Hoofpic

From yesterday. Sorry, no sound, for some reason youtube removed it because of the radio playing songs in the back (copy right issue).


----------



## Prairie

"She wants me to get a pad with 3 shim pockets, remove the back and keep the middle one in (to fill that bridge under the gullet where there is not enough contact against Fly's body). By closing that bridge, it will distribute the weight of the rider more evenly and more weight felt towards her hind end which is what you want."


If this new saddle is bridging, it does NOT fit! The bars are the wrong angle which is why the saddle is also sticking up at the back. No pad in the world is going to correct the fit of an ill-fitting saddle.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Okay, now that I have the time and energy and am not on my phone...

Typically, western saddle trees are measured in semi-QH bars, regular QH bars, and full QH bars. These _roughly_ equate to narrow, medium, and wide trees in English saddles (not by the actual size measurement, but by the designation). No two companies measure their trees at the same width and angle, even though they may carry the same designation. For example, a semi-QH bar may be a 6.25" gullet in a Circle Y, but may be a 6" gullet in a Billy Cook. Likewise, I've seen some saddles (celebrity-branded barrel saddles, most often) claiming an 8" gullet measurement on their FQHB saddles. 8" gullets are generally considered draft trees, and are too wide for the average horse (even wide stock horses).

A perfect example of different brands fitting the same horse differently would be my best friend and her QH mare. Tinkerbell is built like a tank. She's a beefy 14.3hh working-bred stock horse who weighs about 1100lbs when she's working fit. We have had six or seven different FQHB saddles on her in the last few years. All measured 7" across the gullet (from concho to concho). Only three of them actually fit her decently enough that we could use them. One was my Circle A barrel saddle, one was an old Action Saddle Co pleasure saddle, and the last was an old no-name roper that's built super solid and weighs almost as much as my big dogs. Most of them, while wide enough through the gullet, had bar angles that didn't work for her back.

Now, on to your saddle. What size tree is it on? When you looked it up online, it should have told you. With as small and narrow as Fly is, I'd be willing to bet it's probably regular QH bars. See how the width is pretty good on her and the bar angle is not too bad either? With a wider gullet (going up to a FQHB or "wide" tree), you're also going to get a flatter bar angle. That won't work for her. If the bar angle doesn't closely match her shoulder angle, the saddle will sink down and cause pressure points on either side of her withers. You've seen horses with white marks on either side of their shoulders? That's from being ridden in a saddle that was either too narrow or too wide and no one cared or bothered to fix it by finding a saddle that worked. Yes, those are saddle sore scars.

How many other horses do you see yourself riding and using your saddle on? If the answer is "just Fly," then getting a saddle that will supposedly fit a wider range of horses (as your tack lady is claiming a wide tree will do) is just plain silly and a waste of money.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> "She wants me to get a pad with 3 shim pockets, remove the back and keep the middle one in (to fill that bridge under the gullet where there is not enough contact against Fly's body). By closing that bridge, it will distribute the weight of the rider more evenly and more weight felt towards her hind end which is what you want."
> 
> 
> If this new saddle is bridging, it does NOT fit! The bars are the wrong angle which is why the saddle is also sticking up at the back. No pad in the world is going to correct the fit of an ill-fitting saddle.


No no sorry, I was wrong...the fitter said that the new saddle does NOT bridge. The old one did but the new one does not. 

The reason why she still recommended a new pad with shims is to take some pressure off between the saddle and pad at the front (which we know it's not the saddle and pad, but pad and Fly's body). But otherwise even when I was on Fly, she said the saddle was leveled, it wasn't dipping at all.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Do you have any recent conformation shots of Fly? I think the fitter was wrong that she's not going to level out. She's too well-built to be THAT downhill for the rest of her life.


----------



## bsms

Pictures can reveal some poor fitting saddles. What matters is how even the pressure is under the tree. On a western saddle, that is pretty well hidden by the skirts. That is why, when I had a saddle made for Mia, we started with trees. To know how well the tree fits, you need to be able to see it. Since that is impossible with a finished saddle, one has to look at other things. IMHO, it helps to walk beside the horse, slide your hand underneath, and feel the horse's back and shoulder moving where the saddle tree meets the horse. As much as I like the Nikkel's website & information, I do some things different based on how it feels to me when I walk beside my horse.

Pressure pads, with the owner riding, are probably the best - and even they have problems. Sweat patterns, other than small dry spots, seem unreliable. Heck, the HORSE can be unreliable. The too wide saddle I used on Mia, which then slid off her in a spin, was a saddle she rode great in. She seemed very eager, very contented, would calmly trot the longest stretches I have where the footing is safe for trotting, had good sweat patterns - even though, on her back, bare saddle to horse, it is obvious this is wrong:








​ 
The ultimate proof, if you will, came when she spun out from underneath it - after a year of use!

And experts disagree among themselves! With western saddles, I've seen reputable seeming folks say bridging is good because the horse will round up underneath in motion - although the data collected in experiments doesn't match. But then, I've rejected experimental data when I thought the design of the experiment was poor. Others claim a lot of "rock" is good, or that all saddle should have a lot of flare to the front. Some claim saddles built with rear cinches MUST be used with them, and used with them tight. Others, including me, think that is nonsense.

In riding, folks debated the forward seat versus the dressage seat for decades, and almost everyone agreed this guy's riding stunk:








​ 
I've tried all three - and continue to use all three, daily. Depends on the saddle, the horse and my goals at that moment. But lots of experts say I need to do A or B and never C - but those experts don't include my horse, and many of them are not older men with stiff backs, hips and legs, and I haven't met many people who like to ride across the southern Arizona desert off-trail.

And maybe I'm wrong. But as you are noticing, Hoofpic, a lot of horsemanship is between the horse and the man, and ten riders are likely to tell you at least twelve approaches. A lot of times, all you can do is make a decision, try it, see if it works, and try something else if it does not. Listen to your horse, keep an open mind, and accept that how you do things in 2 years will be different than how you do them now - or they will, if you want to be a good rider and a good horseman, which are not always the same thing!

The good news about owning a horse is that horses are remarkably forgiving creatures. Horse trainers teach that it is important to "reward the try". Accept that the horse may have 8 wrong answers before it finds the right one, and reward any small steps toward the right one. And that is how my horses treat me!

When it comes to saddles: I've sold 4 saddles, still own 6, and have 3 horses. :shrug:


----------



## jenkat86

@bsms you are absolutely right on every single point. 

Very well said.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Okay, now that I have the time and energy and am not on my phone...
> 
> Typically, western saddle trees are measured in semi-QH bars, regular QH bars, and full QH bars. These _roughly_ equate to narrow, medium, and wide trees in English saddles (not by the actual size measurement, but by the designation). No two companies measure their trees at the same width and angle, even though they may carry the same designation. For example, a semi-QH bar may be a 6.25" gullet in a Circle Y, but may be a 6" gullet in a Billy Cook. Likewise, I've seen some saddles (celebrity-branded barrel saddles, most often) claiming an 8" gullet measurement on their FQHB saddles. 8" gullets are generally considered draft trees, and are too wide for the average horse (even wide stock horses).


Oh I see, that makes sense. Thanks. 



> A perfect example of different brands fitting the same horse differently would be my best friend and her QH mare. Tinkerbell is built like a tank. She's a beefy 14.3hh working-bred stock horse who weighs about 1100lbs when she's working fit. We have had six or seven different FQHB saddles on her in the last few years. All measured 7" across the gullet (from concho to concho). Only three of them actually fit her decently enough that we could use them. One was my Circle A barrel saddle, one was an old Action Saddle Co pleasure saddle, and the last was an old no-name roper that's built super solid and weighs almost as much as my big dogs. Most of them, while wide enough through the gullet, had bar angles that didn't work for her back.


Seeing how she is 1100lbs and the same height as Fly, I would imagine she was a lot wider at the withers? Were all those saddles you tried on her just store bought ones?



> Now, on to your saddle. What size tree is it on? When you looked it up online, it should have told you. With as small and narrow as Fly is, I'd be willing to bet it's probably regular QH bars.


I'm still trying to find the size of the tree, not much info online. Its a Billy Cook 1540. I'm almost certain that it's regular QH bars as well, and that's what the tack shop owner yesterday predicted as well.



> See how the width is pretty good on her and the bar angle is not too bad either? With a wider gullet (going up to a FQHB or "wide" tree), you're also going to get a flatter bar angle. That won't work for her. If the bar angle doesn't closely match her shoulder angle, the saddle will sink down and cause pressure points on either side of her withers.


Yes I see that. That's why I have my doubts on whether a wide tree would even work on her. I know that the gullet on the new one vs the old one is 1/2 inch smaller. The bars come out much further on the new one than the old one. 



> You've seen horses with white marks on either side of their shoulders? That's from being ridden in a saddle that was either too narrow or too wide and no one cared or bothered to fix it by finding a saddle that worked. Yes, those are saddle sore scars.


Yes I have seen this before.



> How many other horses do you see yourself riding and using your saddle on? If the answer is "just Fly," then getting a saddle that will supposedly fit a wider range of horses (as your tack lady is claiming a wide tree will do) is just plain silly and a waste of money.


Using my saddle on? Probably none, I'd say 99.9% none. I don't know if i feel comfortable using my saddle on another horse if it doesn't fit them well enough. 

I think what the tack shop owner was trying to say to me yesterday was that if I want the easy and quick route, go with a wide tree because on average they will fit more horses than a regular QH tree would. SHe mentioned something about fitting a bunch of horses in 9 different breeds at a ranch last summer and they brought out a wide tree and it fit 9 out of the 10 horses while the regular tree only fit one.



DraftyAiresMum said:


> Do you have any recent conformation shots of Fly? I think the fitter was wrong that she's not going to level out. She's too well-built to be THAT downhill for the rest of her life.


Not recent ones, I am going to take a bunch today when I am out.


----------



## carshon

Hoofpic- I urge you once more to search this forum. Read other posts. Do not wait for people to respond to your journal. As you can see there are only a few of us "regulars" left. The others have moved on. So you are getting input from a very few select people when this forum has many many posts from members concerning saddle fit.

Those posts are educational and well worth searching for and reading.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks for the pics and explaination. This is what the shop owner was telling me yesterday as well that the bars need to sit as flat as possible against the horses shoulder to distribute your weight as evenly across their back.
> 
> So in this pic here of Fly, if Im correct then it looks good because there is clearance at the gullet and the front of the bars seem to be sitting against her shoulder well and flat.
> 
> I'm baffled as to why the fitter got me to check for clearance between the pad and saddle. Uhhh.



No this saddle does NOT fit The angles of the bars are wrong which why the saddle is NOT making contact with the horse where the lower arrow is. The side of the saddle is sticking out. How can you not see that the angle of the saddle does not follow the contour of the horse's shoulder?


----------



## Prairie

*!~*



Hoofpic said:


> Thanks for the pics and explaination. This is what the shop owner was telling me yesterday as well that the bars need to sit as flat as possible against the horses shoulder to distribute your weight as evenly across their back.
> 
> So in this pic here of Fly, if Im correct then it looks good because there is clearance at the gullet and the front of the bars seem to be sitting against her shoulder well and flat.
> 
> I'm baffled as to why the fitter got me to check for clearance between the pad and saddle. Uhhh.





NO that saddle does NOT fit.....look at the bottom arrow where the saddle is not following the contour of the horse's shoulder!


----------



## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> Pictures can reveal some poor fitting saddles. What matters is how even the pressure is under the tree. On a western saddle, that is pretty well hidden by the skirts. That is why, when I had a saddle made for Mia, we started with trees. To know how well the tree fits, you need to be able to see it. Since that is impossible with a finished saddle, one has to look at other things. IMHO, it helps to walk beside the horse, slide your hand underneath, and feel the horse's back and shoulder moving where the saddle tree meets the horse. As much as I like the Nikkel's website & information, I do some things different based on how it feels to me when I walk beside my horse.
> 
> Pressure pads, with the owner riding, are probably the best - and even they have problems. Sweat patterns, other than small dry spots, seem unreliable. Heck, the HORSE can be unreliable. The too wide saddle I used on Mia, which then slid off her in a spin, was a saddle she rode great in. She seemed very eager, very contented, would calmly trot the longest stretches I have where the footing is safe for trotting, had good sweat patterns - even though, on her back, bare saddle to horse, it is obvious this is wrong:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> The ultimate proof, if you will, came when she spun out from underneath it - after a year of use!
> 
> And experts disagree among themselves! With western saddles, I've seen reputable seeming folks say bridging is good because the horse will round up underneath in motion - although the data collected in experiments doesn't match. But then, I've rejected experimental data when I thought the design of the experiment was poor. Others claim a lot of "rock" is good, or that all saddle should have a lot of flare to the front. Some claim saddles built with rear cinches MUST be used with them, and used with them tight. Others, including me, think that is nonsense.
> 
> In riding, folks debated the forward seat versus the dressage seat for decades, and almost everyone agreed this guy's riding stunk:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> I've tried all three - and continue to use all three, daily. Depends on the saddle, the horse and my goals at that moment. But lots of experts say I need to do A or B and never C - but those experts don't include my horse, and many of them are not older men with stiff backs, hips and legs, and I haven't met many people who like to ride across the southern Arizona desert off-trail.
> 
> And maybe I'm wrong. But as you are noticing, Hoofpic, a lot of horsemanship is between the horse and the man, and ten riders are likely to tell you at least twelve approaches. A lot of times, all you can do is make a decision, try it, see if it works, and try something else if it does not. Listen to your horse, keep an open mind, and accept that how you do things in 2 years will be different than how you do them now - or they will, if you want to be a good rider and a good horseman, which are not always the same thing!
> 
> The good news about owning a horse is that horses are remarkably forgiving creatures. Horse trainers teach that it is important to "reward the try". Accept that the horse may have 8 wrong answers before it finds the right one, and reward any small steps toward the right one. And that is how my horses treat me!
> 
> When it comes to saddles: I've sold 4 saddles, still own 6, and have 3 horses. :shrug:


I agree, well said bsms, thanks for the tips. 

I definitely should have used a pillow case under the pad on Fly yesterday, I will do this tomorrow when I ride. 

I did you little trick yesterday on walking Fly with my hand underneath where the tree meets the horse (my hand was directly under it, where the concho is) and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. The pressure felt consistent throughout as we were walking.


----------



## Prairie

IN the video of you riding the new saddle, it's very obvious that the seat is the wrong size for you too---your butt is pressed against the cantle with no other place for it to be because you have no room to scoot forward. You're also in chair position, so need to lengthen your stirrups. Take that saddle back since the seat is too little for you and the bar angles are wrong for Fly.


If you spent half as much time doing the research and reading about horse related activities as you do writing on this forum, you'd be further ahead. You give us wrong information constantly, change what you mean after we correct you, and aren't making any progress.


----------



## egrogan

Yes, that saddle has you really crammed in. It really looks way too small to be comfortable. I don't think this is a great fit for either of you. I would really slow down, do some research to better understand what style is best for your riding, and try a few options at the same time so you have a point of comparison.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie, I'm going to take more pics today (and better ones) so it should really help. But I turned up the exposure on the pics from yesterday and I'm almost certain that the saddles does make contact all along on her shoulder. I will take much better pics this afternoon when I head out.

I know this pic is not the best but just to show you what I mean.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> IN the video of you riding the new saddle, it's very obvious that the seat is the wrong size for you too---your butt is pressed against the cantle with no other place for it to be because you have no room to scoot forward. You're also in chair position, so need to lengthen your stirrups. Take that saddle back since the seat is too little for you and the bar angles are wrong for Fly.
> 
> 
> If you spent half as much time doing the research and reading about horse related activities as you do writing on this forum, you'd be further ahead. You give us wrong information constantly, change what you mean after we correct you, and aren't making any progress.


Is it wrong for me to say that I feel more comfortable in this seat than any larger seats that I've sat in and/or rode in?

I actually do have room to scoot forward in that seat. It's the same size seat as my old saddle and this one feels more roomier. I didn't have any issues though with the seat on the old saddle.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Prairie, I'm going to take more pics today (and better ones) so it should really help. But I turned up the exposure on the pics from yesterday and I'm almost certain that the saddles does make contact all along on her shoulder. I will take much better pics this afternoon when I head out.
> 
> I know this pic is not the best but just to show you what I mean.











Those angles (red lines) should match. They do not in this picture.

Take a few pictures without the pad- and try to get some that are head-on.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> View attachment 842026
> 
> 
> Those angles (red lines) should match. They do not in this picture.
> 
> Take a few pictures without the pad- and try to get some that are head-on.


Okay I will do that. I will get the most accurate pics that I can get today. I will do it from both her left and right side and different angles, with and without the pad. 

The biggest conflict that I deal with in the barn is the lack of lighting so I will do something to give me that.


----------



## 6gun Kid

Hoofpic said:


> Is it wrong for me to say that I feel more comfortable in this seat than any larger seats that I've sat in.


 Wrong? No. however, it isn't very safe. The the unvarnished truth is that saddle is too small for you, as for fitting the horse, well you have heard it many times. I don't need to tell you again.


----------



## greentree

You look horribly uncomfortable in that saddle.


----------



## carshon

Hoofpic said:


> Is it wrong for me to say that I feel more comfortable in this seat than any larger seats that I've sat in and/or rode in?
> 
> I actually do have room to scoot forward in that seat. It's the same size seat as my old saddle and this one feels more roomier. I didn't have any issues though with the seat on the old saddle.



Hoofpic - you feel better in this seat because it jams you in. It prevents you from moving but it also prevents you from riding your horse in the correct position. You do not use the cantle of a saddle for support - it is not a chair to be leaned against. You should sit in the middle of your saddle - independently of the cantle of pommel. If you are pressed against either the saddle does not fit you! 

At your height you really need a 16" seat or more. My daughter is 5'10" and 124lbs. Tall and slim and she rides in a 16" or 17" saddle. The saddle is meant to fit your legs and not just your bum!


----------



## Hoofpic

I just got a call back. Apparently the saddle i got is brand new not used. That would explain why it has no wear on it


----------



## Tazzie

Agreed with everyone here. That saddle does NOT fit. Not you. Not Fly.

I get it. Saddle fitting is a massive pain in the @ss. Trust me, I'm going through it too. The saddle that fit my horse perfectly 6 months ago is now too narrow in the bar angle thanks to her development under saddle and working on schooling a higher level. It's pinching right where yours is, and not allowing the muscles to move through and develop anymore. So we just had a million tracings and pictures done, and I get to send them all out to a bunch of different companies in hopes they have an XW or XXW (depending on the brand since no one is consistent) with a hoop tree. So I'm basically looking for a unicorn that won't break the bank. The saddle could have been adjusted wider, but it would have destroyed all the other things that fit perfectly (that was the only point that didn't fit, and it couldn't be altered for us) and would have brought the saddle down on top of her withers.

You need to slow down, take a deep breath, return that saddle, and try something else with a bigger seat.

Don't 100% rule out saddle fitters. I did a good job getting my current saddle, but having someone who can help me find our next one is quite nice and hopefully will save cash in the long run. But I was also well aware that my saddle was no longer fitting. I was just hoping it could have been something fixable.

I know some horses go well in saddles that maybe don't fit as well as they could. Izzie does a good job in her current one, but we're getting into too high level of work to have something that is going to pinch the shoulders. Maybe Fly won't ever get to where she lifts her shoulders (does that happen in western? I don't really know). But you need to have something that isn't going to pinch her.

And having too small of a seat will not allow you to follow Fly's movement. You both will be more comfortable in a larger seat I think.

Also, to check if there is bridging, run your hand under the saddle from front to back without the saddle cinched and without a pad. Feel for any pressure points or if the saddle suddenly isn't there. Do this for ANY saddle you bring to the barn.


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## PoptartShop

It definitely looks too small, you don't look very comfortable in it. I'd definitely return it & keep trying!


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## DraftyAiresMum

Firstly, you're confusing withers and shoulders. Withers are the "pointy" bit where the horse's neck meets its back on top (where the spine is). Shoulders are everything from there down to the elbow (pretty much).










Secondly, I agree with all the others. That saddle doesn't fit either one of you. What size seat is that? I can't seem to find any information on Billy Cook barrel saddles with the model 1540. I have found a Big Horn barrel saddle with that model number, though. 

To answer your question about my best friend's mare...yes, she has ridiculously beefy shoulders. She's a granddaughter of a local celebrity stallion named Scottish Bart. He was a world champion producer and a lot of his get are used in the area as ranch and roping horses. Tinkerbell was a decent barrel horse, but we think she'd make a kick-*** roping horse.


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## Hoofpic

Uploading pics right now, I took lots. I went outside because of the best light.


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## Hoofpic

When I ran my hand along the front of the saddle, it was right along her shoulder from the tree to the bottom of the saddle


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## Hoofpic




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## natisha

I watched the whole video-yes I did. (nice spook ride at 13:00)
To me Hoofpic looks pretty good at the sitting trot. His posting trot was a bit off but I don't know if he knows diagonals. 
He doesn't looked perched on Fly's neck like before.
Barrel saddles are a tighter fit by their very nature. If Hoofpic is comfortable in it that's all that matters. It's his saddle. He may want to try a canter in it before he fully decides though.

Holding my opinion on fit until I see the next set of pictures.


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## Hoofpic

Also, I ran my hand from the front to back of the saddle (no pad and not done up) and there was no gaps. I didn't feel any bridging. The feel from front to back was very consistent. It just came up a slight bit at the very back edge (as you can see from the pics).


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## Prairie

Saddle doesn't fit Fly.....the bar angles on wrong so the saddle gaps on the sides. I'm not sure you have enough understand of saddle fit to know if it is bridging,but I suspect it does just the way it sits on her back. Try a 16 to 16 1/2 inch equitation saddle for you since you seem to prefer a tighter fit. The 15 inch saddle is way too small and would be a wreck if you got hung up in it when you fall off. Also, it doesn't permit you to move with the horse or be in the correct position for riding balanced.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Saddle doesn't fit Fly.....the bar angles on wrong so the saddle gaps on the sides. I'm not sure you have enough understand of saddle fit to know if it is bridging,but I suspect it does just the way it sits on her back. Try a 16 to 16 1/2 inch equitation saddle for you since you seem to prefer a tighter fit. The 15 inch saddle is way too small and would be a wreck if you got hung up in it when you fall off. Also, it doesn't permit you to move with the horse or be in the correct position for riding balanced.


Are you talking about the front of the saddle? Cause those pieces are just very thin flaps.

I was going to take a pic of it but if you look online, Billy Cook 1540, the front are flaps are extend further down than the rest of the saddle. They just hang there.


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## bsms

As usual, I'm odd guy out. That looks like pretty good saddle fit on Fly. I'd prefer a bigger seat, but I know a guy bigger than me who likes a 14" saddle - and he has a ranch. It is just what he likes.


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## Prairie

The bars, which are what hold the saddle's shape are the wrong angles for fly----those front flaps reflect the bar angles. If the saddle fits correctly, the front of the saddle smoothly follows the horse's shoulder. Also look at how the back of the saddle is poking up----that suggests possible bridging due to the wrong bar angles plus the saddle does not fit. How many times do we have to repeat this? 




You really need to learn how to do some research about what we post so we don't have to keep repeating ourselves endlessly.


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## natisha

Hoofpic, don't you have a wither tracing of Fly?

Pics with the head down should be ignored.


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## gottatrot

Prairie said:


> No this saddle does NOT fit The angles of the bars are wrong which why the saddle is NOT making contact with the horse where the lower arrow is. The side of the saddle is sticking out. How can you not see that the angle of the saddle does not follow the contour of the horse's shoulder?


To me the saddle looks like a pretty good fit. In a couple of the photos, the lower part of the pad pushes the lower part of the saddle out a bit because it appears to be thicker. I believe that is an illusion because in most of the photos the bar angle follows the shoulder angle very well. Look at the photos with no pad on. The rest of the saddle matches the angle of the horse's back.

I'd never attempt to say what size tree fits a horse based on the horse's size or build. My very petite, tiny Arab is 14.2 hands and wears an XW tree. A huge Percheron I know rode in a medium tree. Some Percherons have a narrow, A frame back while some tiny Arabs have the saddle sit right over their well sprung rib cage, which has a wider angle than a big TB's rib cage. 

I was taught by a saddle fitter that what matters with the seat size and the rider is whether the pelvis sits upright. If the saddle seat is too small, it will tilt your pelvis angle forward because your pelvis can't sit flat on the seat. A larger person with a flat butt might ride in a smaller seat than a small person with a round butt. 

My personal opinion is that putting the stirrups down one hole would help Hoofpic's ride and he'd sit in a better place on the seat of the saddle.


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## Prairie

gottatrot, look at the first post of saddle pictures he just posted----the leather does NOT follow the shoulder angle, which means the bars are wrong for the horse. Also in the following post the saddle does not sit down on the back end, another indication of wrong bar angles. 


Hoofpic is squished into that seat,preventing him from moving in synch with the horse. There's also the concern that in a unplanned ground check, he won't be able to get clear of the saddle. That seat also puts him in a chair position. Yes, he does need to lengthen his stirrups, but that alone will not make the seat a better fit---your butt should not be riding the cantle, nor should the front of your seat be pressing on the horn/gullet.


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## bsms

Prairie said:


> The bars, which are what hold the saddle's shape are the wrong angles for fly----those front flaps reflect the bar angles. If the saddle fits correctly, the front of the saddle smoothly follows the horse's shoulder. Also look at how the back of the saddle is poking up----that suggests possible bridging due to the wrong bar angles plus the saddle does not fit. How many times do we have to repeat this?...


Hmmm.....











compared to my custom built saddle:










And this:











compared to the tree used in my saddle










:think:

Another picture I'll delete in a few weeks:










Smaller seat than I would like, but that is not a chair seat. FWIW, this is a famous trainer whose riding I don't care for:










And this is a guy I like:








​


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## Prairie

bsms, sorry to say if that custom made saddle was made for this horse, it's not a good fit either.....look at the gap just below the withers. It does not follow the curve of the horse's shoulders.


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## bsms

Prairie, I talked to the head of the largest western saddle tree manufacturer in the world. The tree I used and the saddle made was done after sending several hundred pictures to SouthernTrails, who used to be a moderator here. It fit Mia well enough that I could mount up from the ground without a cinch and without the saddle moving. 

If I have to choose between a guy who has custom saddles made all the time, and who was a moderator on this forum and who spent hours on the phone, and most anyone else on this forum...I'll stick with SouthernTrails.

And for the record, no, the edge of the leather has nothing to do with the tree. This was the tree used:










Without going totally custom, it would be hard to get anything closer.


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## 6gun Kid

This is my final post on the saddle because, quite honestly, I am tired of people hammering on me that I am beating up on hoofpic. When in fact I just want him to be safe and have fun on his insanely honest, patient , and wonderful mare. But, he is a 6 and a half foot tall man riding in a saddle made for a 5 and a half foot tall woman! @Hoofpic, read the book I gave you, follow the knowledge in the book. Also, listen to the advice here. I have to say, that while you are a gunsel you are the most interesting, confusing, and frustrating gunsel I have ever come across. Your devotion to your mare is impressive. Your devotion to yourr trainer, fitters, tack shops and BO, while impressive, is somewhat misguided. Fair winds and following seas, my friend, I hope that you reach your goal, and when you do.... come to Texas, we will ride! Good luck, I am out!


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## gottatrot

The seat size is an individual thing, I would think it might feel too small for Hoofpic, but I know people who like to ride slopping around in giant saddles so personal preference varies greatly. I doubt it affects safety though. If it doesn't restrict his movement or tilt his pelvic angle forward, then it seems whatever is most comfortable for the rider is fine. Same with stirrup length. You might tell me what is correct, but it actually comes down to my horse's build, how much pressure is on my knees and ankles, etc.

I'd rather see someone riding such a small horse in a smaller saddle rather than what is more common: a large man riding a small horse in a big saddle with a skirt that bumps the horse's hip bones when he walks. 

I personally don't care if Hoofpic thinks people are picking on him or not, but if I'm reading through and there is what seems to be false information or an opinion stated as fact, then I like to present another perspective that is hopefully based on fact. 

What I would like to see are the saddles some of you are riding in that fit your horses better than either the one Hoofpic is buying or the custom one @bsms posted. In my experience, it is difficult to get saddles that fit even this well, although I like to strive for the perfect saddle fit. Do you honestly think there are concerns about Fly having soreness or other issues from a saddle that fits this well? I'm not sure where the problems would be.


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## greentree

I agree with @gottatrot . But then, I have no intention of ever using a saddle fitter. I used a chiropracter once, and a massage therapist once, and decided THAT was a wadte of money....

Like that video said, we are looking for an "average" . which means the best wee can get from what we have to choose, since doing a plaster impression of the horse,'s back and building a tree to fit is prohibitive to most, AND the horse is not static, so next month may be different.

I am with 6gun....over and out!


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## GMA100

If I were you, I would be watching every Youtube video of saddle fitting, and reading every article about saddle fitting. The only way to learn is to watch, listen, read, and TRY!!



How's Fly doing? Are you planning on riding her somewhere besides the arena anytime soon? 
You haven't updated on your BO recently, how is he doing?


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> As usual, I'm odd guy out. That looks like pretty good saddle fit on Fly. I'd prefer a bigger seat, but I know a guy bigger than me who likes a 14" saddle - and he has a ranch. It is just what he likes.


Thanks bsms. I forward the pics to the saddler fitter at the shop yesterday and he said it looks like a good fit and they fit horses everyday. Is it a perfect fit? No, but for a barrel saddle with a rounded skirt, I'd be hard pressed to find a better fit without going custom.


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## Hoofpic

6gun Kid said:


> This is my final post on the saddle because, quite honestly, I am tired of people hammering on me that I am beating up on hoofpic. When in fact I just want him to be safe and have fun on his insanely honest, patient , and wonderful mare. But, he is a 6 and a half foot tall man riding in a saddle made for a 5 and a half foot tall woman! @Hoofpic, read the book I gave you, follow the knowledge in the book. Also, listen to the advice here. I have to say, that while you are a gunsel you are the most interesting, confusing, and frustrating gunsel I have ever come across. Your devotion to your mare is impressive. Your devotion to yourr trainer, fitters, tack shops and BO, while impressive, is somewhat misguided. Fair winds and following seas, my friend, I hope that you reach your goal, and when you do.... come to Texas, we will ride! Good luck, I am out!


I'm sorry for letting you down (and everyone else). I didn't mean to.


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## updownrider

6gun Kid said:


> This is my final post on the saddle because, quite honestly, I am tired of people hammering on me that I am beating up on hoofpic. When in fact I just want him to be safe and have fun on his insanely honest, patient , and wonderful mare. But, he is a 6 and a half foot tall man riding in a saddle made for a 5 and a half foot tall woman! @Hoofpic, read the book I gave you, follow the knowledge in the book. Also, listen to the advice here. I have to say, that while you are a gunsel you are the most interesting, confusing, and frustrating gunsel I have ever come across. Your devotion to your mare is impressive. Your devotion to yourr trainer, fitters, tack shops and BO, while impressive, is somewhat misguided. Fair winds and following seas, my friend, I hope that you reach your goal, and when you do.... come to Texas, we will ride! Good luck, I am out!


I don't often post here, Hoofpic, but I follow. I am sorry you are losing 6gun Kid as a poster, adviser, and mentor in your journal. I think he gives some of the best advice on this board. 




bsms said:


> As usual, I'm odd guy out. That looks like pretty good saddle fit on Fly. I'd prefer a bigger seat, but I know a guy bigger than me who likes a 14" saddle - *and he has a ranch*. It is just what he likes.


I fail to see what owning a ranch has to do with saddle fit. I own a family farm but that does not mean I am automatically qualified to give saddle fit advice. 

I can ride in saddle much too small for me but I have to modify my position to be effective, and I can do this because I have been riding for over 50 years. I would never advise a beginner, particularly one as serious about his riding as Hoofpic, to buy an unsuitable saddle for his riding goals. As a beginner, his basics are something he practices to perfect every time he rides, but riding in a saddle too small will force him to compromise position and balance.


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## natisha

updownrider said:


> I don't often post here, Hoofpic, but I follow. I am sorry you are losing 6gun Kid as a poster, adviser, and mentor in your journal. I think he gives some of the best advice on this board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I fail to see what owning a ranch has to do with saddle fit. I own a family farm but that does not mean I am automatically qualified to give saddle fit advice.
> 
> I can ride in saddle much too small for me but I have to modify my position to be effective, and I can do this because I have been riding for over 50 years. I would never advise a beginner, particularly one as serious about his riding as Hoofpic, to buy an unsuitable saddle for his riding goals. As a beginner, his basics are something he practices to perfect every time he rides, but riding in a saddle too small will force him to compromise position and balance.


I took the ranch reference to mean the guy spends a lot of time in the saddle & is comfortable.


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## natisha

While watching the last riding video there is space in the saddle in front & behind Hoofpic & he looks comfortable. He rocked the sitting trot!


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## bsms

I mentioned the guy with a small saddle owned a ranch because he rode many thousands of miles in that small saddle. It wasn't someone who just rode for an hour on level ground. He rode his entire adult life, often doing 12+ hours days, working with cattle and sheep, in mountains and deserts, in a saddle smaller than I would like to ride in for an hour. 

Not my taste in saddle size, but it remains his favorite saddle. He bought a new one, bigger - then ended up getting the old one rebuilt.

When it comes to saddles fitting the horse, not the rider: He likes half-Arabians with good withers. In a sense, he breeds his horses to be pretty uniform, so the saddles fit because all the horses are pretty much the same shape.

Purely by chance, that is how it has worked for me. My three horses all fit semi-quarter horse saddles better than any other standard size.


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## updownrider

bsms said:


> I mentioned the guy with a small saddle owned a ranch because he rode many thousands of miles in that small saddle. It wasn't someone who just rode for an hour on level ground. He rode his entire adult life, often doing 12+ hours days, working with cattle and sheep, in mountains and deserts, in a saddle smaller than I would like to ride in for an hour.
> 
> Not my taste in saddle size, but it remains his favorite saddle. He bought a new one, bigger - then ended up getting the old one rebuilt.
> 
> When it comes to saddles fitting the horse, not the rider: He likes half-Arabians with good withers. In a sense, he breeds his horses to be pretty uniform, so the saddles fit because all the horses are pretty much the same shape.
> 
> Purely by chance, that is how it has worked for me. My three horses all fit semi-quarter horse saddles better than any other standard size.


I guess you missed my point. I am not not an expert saddle fitter, but I do have decades of beginners learning to ride properly at our family farm.

I believe Hoofpic should learn to ride in a appropriate sized saddle at this point in his riding. Hoofpic is not going to ride 12 hours a day on a ranch as a beginner. He has expressed a desire to ride correctly, learning the proper basics and how to ride with balance, something he is spending a lot of money to do with a trainer he admires. Eventually he could buy a different saddle, even 9 of them if he chooses, or he may actually stick with a suitable sized saddle that he will feel comfortable in once he learns to ride in balance.


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## Whinnie

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Firstly, you're confusing withers and shoulders. Withers are the "pointy" bit where the horse's neck meets its back on top (where the spine is). Shoulders are everything from there down to the elbow (pretty much).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, I agree with all the others. That saddle doesn't fit either one of you. What size seat is that? I can't seem to find any information on Billy Cook barrel saddles with the model 1540. I have found a Big Horn barrel saddle with that model number, though.
> 
> To answer your question about my best friend's mare...yes, she has ridiculously beefy shoulders. She's a granddaughter of a local celebrity stallion named Scottish Bart. He was a world champion producer and a lot of his get are used in the area as ranch and roping horses. Tinkerbell was a decent barrel horse, but we think she'd make a kick-*** roping horse.


Hoofpic should be finding this diagram, other diagrams and information for himself. Of course, if he waits he gets spoon fed so I can see why he doesn't do his own work. Drafty, I know you are nice and wanting to be helpful. But does giving him information he can darn well find himself really help him?


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> While watching the last riding video there is space in the saddle in front & behind Hoofpic & he looks comfortable. He rocked the sitting trot!


Thank you Natisha. I feel very comfortable in that seat. I know many don't believe me, but I am. There is space in the saddle in front and behind me.

I felt that I did the sitting trot well. :grin:


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## jaydee

6gun Kid said:


> This is my final post on the saddle because, quite honestly, I am tired of people hammering on me that I am beating up on hoofpic. When in fact I just want him to be safe and have fun on his insanely honest, patient , and wonderful mare. But, he is a 6 and a half foot tall man riding in a saddle made for a 5 and a half foot tall woman! @*Hoofpic*, read the book I gave you, follow the knowledge in the book. Also, listen to the advice here. I have to say, that while you are a gunsel you are the most interesting, confusing, and frustrating gunsel I have ever come across. Your devotion to your mare is impressive. Your devotion to yourr trainer, fitters, tack shops and BO, while impressive, is somewhat misguided. Fair winds and following seas, my friend, I hope that you reach your goal, and when you do.... come to Texas, we will ride! Good luck, I am out!


 This posts IS NOT beating up on hoofpic
There's a big difference between giving blunt but honest, helpful *GOOD* advice from a genuinely caring perspective (which is very clear) and the sort of bullying, nagging, nitpicking sort of stuff that is more about making the person dealing it out feel better because they've had their daily fix of being negative and spiteful regardless of whether or not they've actually helped anyone.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> The seat size is an individual thing, I would think it might feel too small for Hoofpic, but I know people who like to ride slopping around in giant saddles so personal preference varies greatly. I doubt it affects safety though. If it doesn't restrict his movement or tilt his pelvic angle forward, then it seems whatever is most comfortable for the rider is fine. Same with stirrup length. You might tell me what is correct, but it actually comes down to my horse's build, how much pressure is on my knees and ankles, etc.
> 
> I'd rather see someone riding such a small horse in a smaller saddle rather than what is more common: a large man riding a small horse in a big saddle with a skirt that bumps the horse's hip bones when he walks.
> 
> I personally don't care if Hoofpic thinks people are picking on him or not, but if I'm reading through and there is what seems to be false information or an opinion stated as fact, then I like to present another perspective that is hopefully based on fact.
> 
> What I would like to see are the saddles some of you are riding in that fit your horses better than either the one Hoofpic is buying or the custom one @bsms posted. In my experience, it is difficult to get saddles that fit even this well, although I like to strive for the perfect saddle fit. Do you honestly think there are concerns about Fly having soreness or other issues from a saddle that fits this well? I'm not sure where the problems would be.


Thanks and I agree with you. I appreciate you for presenting some things from another perspective. The biggest thing that I've learned from the horse world is that everyone has an opinion.

I'm not going to carry on much more discussing this specific saddle because I don't want it to drag on but I do appreciate all the advice given and I feel a lot better today than I did 48 hours ago. I know what I need to do to get better and I spent some time last night to create a short and long term plan to get me there.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I can't seem to find any information on Billy Cook barrel saddles with the model 1540. I have found a Big Horn barrel saddle with that model number, though. .


Thank you for the diagram. From talking with the tack shop owner yesterday, this saddle was made only for this shop by Billy Cook. That would explain why the other shop owner has never seen it or couldn't find any record of the model in their catalog.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I don't know if he knows diagonals.
> He doesn't looked perched on Fly's neck like before.
> Barrel saddles are a tighter fit by their very nature. If Hoofpic is comfortable in it that's all that matters. It's his saddle. He may want to try a canter in it before he fully decides though.
> 
> Holding my opinion on fit until I see the next set of pictures.


I know diagonals but unfortunately, I'm still working on it in how to read which lead I'm on. I don't quite have the eye for it yet without looking down or using the mirror. My trainer taught me diagonals about 5 months ago and the first time she asked me to change diagonals, I did it with no problem. She was very surprised.

I feel further back in this saddle. It will take some more time to get used to it, but it shouldn't be long.


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## Hoofpic

Well my boss paid me on time today, so this is great news! I'm very impressed.


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## StephaniHren

I must have 0 life, because I finally caught up on all 450 pages of this thread (pretty sure I was killing time while the saddle fit crisis passed, since that's not my forte at all, haha). I feel like I sprinted my way through a six month journey in a couple of sittings, like I'm getting mental windburn from going mach 5 through this novel-length thread—WHEW.

Alright, here are my (unsolicited) thoughts:

I'll admit it, you've come a lot farther than I thought. Some of your first videos were a little cringe worthy (oh man, that sitting trot, yo)—great stuff for looking back on as you make progress, nice call on taking videos early on! Your rides down the driveway were pretty commendable, considering the combined level of experience between you and Fly. I have oddly mixed feelings a lot of the time because a big part of me thinks you're doing really well and shouldn't be so hard on yourself, but another big part says that Fly is green and you should be more hard on yourself? No help there, I know. 

I'd like to hear more about your riding, there used to be a lot of videos and updates about things you were learning in the saddle and what you worked on in lessons, and I feel like the thread's devolved. I'm standing by the idea that you shouldn't be cutting back your riding during winter (why buy all of those new winter clothes if you're not going to use them, man?). I also still think you should be taking lessons on the school horse, maybe even some lessons on the lunge line with no hands and balance exercises at trot/canter. Green horses have wonky canter transitions (yeah, my horse too), which often makes them jarring and it's important that you're not bouncing around on them while they try to figure themselves out. More balance for you will make that all easier for Fly, especially since you're just so darn tall.

The more I watch, the more of a treasure I think that little mare of yours is. I know quite a few horses (mine included) that would probably take complete advantage of you in a new situation, but it looks like she's really trying to work with you. She's such a steadfast little thing, quite a sport about it all. What a good pony! Also, I'm lamenting the barn you're at, because I really think that you could use a friend who's a good enough rider that you can ask them for advice/go on rides with them and feel confident that they could guide you in the right direction if a problem arose (it's like having a mock trainer with you, but free!). 

I really think you should pick a concrete spring goal and then work towards it through the winter. Maybe trailering out to a big trail with Fly or going to a small cowboy challenge, if they have one? Everyone gets all feverish to ride once the weather turns good again, so you shouldn't have trouble getting a ride with someone. I'd pick an event to go to with her (with a solid date) and then make short term goals that will get you both more ready for it. Then devote time over the winter to working towards that goal.

Side note: you really do take some nice photos. Are most of your photos of Fly and the other horses you post on here taken with the FZ1000? Everything's so vibrant and colorful. Is that natural lighting or do you edit in that awesome pre-sunset sort of color? If you Photoshop it, I'm going to need a tutorial, lol. If you don't shop it... then the gray swamp of Seattle's wet/cloudy climate has already dissolved away my sense of "colors for a normal fall environment".


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## tinyliny

Well said.


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## greentree

If StepaniHren is not married, Hoofpic, I think you should propose!


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## egrogan

greentree said:


> If StepaniHren is not married, Hoofpic, I think you should propose!


Made me laugh. I agree!!


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## Dehda01

You might think you are comfortable in that saddle, but I strongly feel if you went up to the 16", you be in a much better balance point and would be shocked with how much better it would feel for you. I won't discuss saddle fit. I don't think she is a SQHB. AnD don't like barrel saddles for general riding saddles because of the fender placement, balance points. I am out. Good luck.


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## GMA100

StephaniHren said:


> I must have 0 life, because I finally caught up on all 450 pages of this thread (pretty sure I was killing time while the saddle fit crisis passed, since that's not my forte at all, haha). I feel like I sprinted my way through a six month journey in a couple of sittings, like I'm getting mental windburn from going mach 5 through this novel-length thread—WHEW.
> 
> Alright, here are my (unsolicited) thoughts:
> 
> I'll admit it, you've come a lot farther than I thought. Some of your first videos were a little cringe worthy (oh man, that sitting trot, yo)—great stuff for looking back on as you make progress, nice call on taking videos early on! Your rides down the driveway were pretty commendable, considering the combined level of experience between you and Fly. I have oddly mixed feelings a lot of the time because a big part of me thinks you're doing really well and shouldn't be so hard on yourself, but another big part says that Fly is green and you should be more hard on yourself? No help there, I know.
> 
> *I'd like to hear more about your riding, there used to be a lot of videos and updates about things you were learning in the saddle and what you worked on in lessons, and I feel like the thread's devolved. I'm standing by the idea that you shouldn't be cutting back your riding during winter (why buy all of those new winter clothes if you're not going to use them, man?). I also still think you should be taking lessons on the school horse, maybe even some lessons on the lunge line with no hands and balance exercises at trot/canter. Green horses have wonky canter transitions (yeah, my horse too), which often makes them jarring and it's important that you're not bouncing around on them while they try to figure themselves out. More balance for you will make that all easier for Fly, especially since you're just so darn tall.
> 
> The more I watch, the more of a treasure I think that little mare of yours is. I know quite a few horses (mine included) that would probably take complete advantage of you in a new situation, but it looks like she's really trying to work with you. She's such a steadfast little thing, quite a sport about it all. What a good pony! Also, I'm lamenting the barn you're at, because I really think that you could use a friend who's a good enough rider that you can ask them for advice/go on rides with them and feel confident that they could guide you in the right direction if a problem arose (it's like having a mock trainer with you, but free!). *
> 
> I really think you should pick a concrete spring goal and then work towards it through the winter. Maybe trailering out to a big trail with Fly or going to a small cowboy challenge, if they have one? Everyone gets all feverish to ride once the weather turns good again, so you shouldn't have trouble getting a ride with someone. I'd pick an event to go to with her (with a solid date) and then make short term goals that will get you both more ready for it. Then devote time over the winter to working towards that goal.
> 
> Side note: you really do take some nice photos. Are most of your photos of Fly and the other horses you post on here taken with the FZ1000? Everything's so vibrant and colorful. Is that natural lighting or do you edit in that awesome pre-sunset sort of color? If you Photoshop it, I'm going to need a tutorial, lol. If you don't shop it... then the gray swamp of Seattle's wet/cloudy climate has already dissolved away my sense of "colors for a normal fall environment".


Ok, this^^^ is AMAZING!! I bolded what I emphasize, but then, I should have bolded the whole thing!!:smile:





greentree said:


> If StepaniHren is not married, Hoofpic, I think you should propose!


You just gave me my morning laugh!!!


----------



## StephaniHren

greentree said:


> If StepaniHren is not married, Hoofpic, I think you should propose!


Sorry, I'm unfortunately already taken by a high maintenance 7yo APHA gelding.
(AKA happily single and staying that way, lol)


----------



## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> You might think you are comfortable in that saddle, but I strongly feel if you went up to the 16", you be in a much better balance point and would be shocked with how much better it would feel for you. I won't discuss saddle fit. I don't think she is a SQHB. AnD don't like barrel saddles for general riding saddles because of the fender placement, balance points. I am out. Good luck.


But what I'm saying is that I have ridden in 16" seats before and I didn't like it. Not on Fly but when I rode geldings.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> But what I'm saying is that I have ridden in 16" seats before and I didn't like it. Not on Fly but when I rode geldings.


Just because you "don't like it" does not mean that it isn't the right choice for you.

I agree with everyone else who has pointed out this saddle IS to small for you, as a beginner should be learning to ride properly, in a saddle that is an appropriate size. It's like everything else, if you learn to do things properly in the first place THEN you can move on and do whatever you like.


----------



## carshon

Hoofpic - you may not like it at first because you "want" to be held in tight in the saddle because it makes you feel more secure. But a 16" is probably what you "need" to ride in because of your size.

Some do prefer a tighter seat but - all saddle types are built different. Your new saddle is a barrel saddle - it is meant to put its rider in the most optimal position for riding a pattern at high speed. Roping saddles are designed for those that rope etc.

What everyone is telling you is to find a saddle that has a seat that will help you find the optimal riding position for the disciplines you want to ride in. You mention ranch riding and trail riding - a barrel saddle is not the best choice for these. The 16" seat will feel different now as you have more confidence and are riding a different horse.

Personally if it were me. Instead of buying a new saddle - I would shim the one you have - because of Fly being downhill and her shape you may need to shim almost any saddle you ride in.

Just as an observation you seem keen to spend money on things that you think will make you a better rider (mohair cinch, half chaps, different boots, different saddle) You have spent more money on gadgets in the short time Ihave been reading your journal than I have in the past 3 years - and I am on my 3rd riding horse this year!!!!! and all have been different shapes.

Stop buying things and ride more - venture out more. Ride other horses - meet new friends. You can do this Hoofpic - you have made great strides and have a wonderful little horse - just enjoy for a bit and put your money into more lessons and not more gadgets.


----------



## Dehda01

Hoofpic said:


> But what I'm saying is that I have ridden in 16" seats before and I didn't like it. Not on Fly but when I rode geldings.


Did you try the 16" in this saddle? Each type of saddle has a different type seat with different balance point. A poorly made 16" seat will not be a fun seat. 

I don't like to sit in a poorly made saddle. I have expensive tastes my behind can feel the differences between cheaply made saddles and quality work. 

Depending on the ground seat, you may have had a different feel. But honestly, you don't have enough room for your thigh.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I'll admit it, you've come a lot farther than I thought.


Thank you.



> Some of your first videos were a little cringe worthy (oh man, that sitting trot, yo)—great stuff for looking back on as you make progress, nice call on taking videos early on! Your rides down the driveway were pretty commendable, considering the combined level of experience between you and Fly. I have oddly mixed feelings a lot of the time because a big part of me thinks you're doing really well and shouldn't be so hard on yourself, but another big part says that Fly is green and you should be more hard on yourself? No help there, I know.


Thanks but you don't sit my sitting trot?



> I'd like to hear more about your riding, there used to be a lot of videos and updates about things you were learning in the saddle and what you worked on in lessons, and I feel like the thread's devolved. I'm standing by the idea that you shouldn't be cutting back your riding during winter (why buy all of those new winter clothes if you're not going to use them, man?). I also still think you should be taking lessons on the school horse, maybe even some lessons on the lunge line with no hands and balance exercises at trot/canter. Green horses have wonky canter transitions (yeah, my horse too), which often makes them jarring and it's important that you're not bouncing around on them while they try to figure themselves out. More balance for you will make that all easier for Fly, especially since you're just so darn tall.


Trust me, I am going to ride whenever I can in the winter, but because in Canada we get harsh winters, it won't be as much as now. No one in Canada will be able to ride as much in the winter as they do in the spring and summer. It's just not possible.

I don't talk as much about what I worked on in my lessons because I usually don't show me riding anymore. It creates too much backlash. I'm a lot steadier now in the saddle than before. I'm not there yet but I'm getting there. I used to bounce around a lot more.



> The more I watch, the more of a treasure I think that little mare of yours is. I know quite a few horses (mine included) that would probably take complete advantage of you in a new situation, but it looks like she's really trying to work with you. She's such a steadfast little thing, quite a sport about it all. What a good pony! Also, I'm lamenting the barn you're at, because I really think that you could use a friend who's a good enough rider that you can ask them for advice/go on rides with them and feel confident that they could guide you in the right direction if a problem arose (it's like having a mock trainer with you, but free!).


And that is one reason why I got her because the previous owner said that she will try her hardest for you.

I wish I had a friend at the barn who I could look up to and reflect more on but there isn't anyone. My 3 friends have their own set of problems and all those issues were issues that I had with Fly but I have overcome and eliminated. The only reason person (outside of my trainer) at the barn who I can look up to is my BO. Which he is great and has taught me a lot but I try not to go to him if I can avoid it because there are already enough people who go to him for help.



> I really think you should pick a concrete spring goal and then work towards it through the winter. Maybe trailering out to a big trail with Fly or going to a small cowboy challenge, if they have one? Everyone gets all feverish to ride once the weather turns good again, so you shouldn't have trouble getting a ride with someone. I'd pick an event to go to with her (with a solid date) and then make short term goals that will get you both more ready for it. Then devote time over the winter to working towards that goal.


I have just recently set goals for the next year. Next Spring I would like to take her to a show/clinic and at least one trail ride somewhere outside of the barn for a day. I want her to experience her first legitimate clinic where there are all sorts of breeds there and all levels of riders. It would be a great experience for her.

I would like to have her get used to the trailer more as she has only been in a trailer maybe 4 or 5 trips in her life. Right now she hates trailers and is uncomfortable and she will sweat a lot. I want to be able to load and unload her safely in a trailer.

I also plan on attending even more shows and clinics next year to up my knowledge and maybe even some workshops.



> Side note: you really do take some nice photos. Are most of your photos of Fly and the other horses you post on here taken with the FZ1000? Everything's so vibrant and colorful. Is that natural lighting or do you edit in that awesome pre-sunset sort of color? If you Photoshop it, I'm going to need a tutorial, lol. If you don't shop it... then the gray swamp of Seattle's wet/cloudy climate has already dissolved away my sense of "colors for a normal fall environment".


Thanks. Most of my photos were shot with the FZ1000, others were with the GH4 and a wide angle lens. Not all, but most were post processed.


----------



## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> Hoofpic - you may not like it at first because you "want" to be held in tight in the saddle because it makes you feel more secure. But a 16" is probably what you "need" to ride in because of your size.


I prefer smaller because it just feels better. I still feel very secure in the 15" seat.



> Some do prefer a tighter seat but - all saddle types are built different. Your new saddle is a barrel saddle - it is meant to put its rider in the most optimal position for riding a pattern at high speed. Roping saddles are designed for those that rope etc.


Oh I see, thanks.



> What everyone is telling you is to find a saddle that has a seat that will help you find the optimal riding position for the disciplines you want to ride in. You mention ranch riding and trail riding - a barrel saddle is not the best choice for these. The 16" seat will feel different now as you have more confidence and are riding a different horse.


Is a barrel saddle still safe and okay to take on trail rides?
Maybe I will need to sit in another 16" seat at the shop to get another feel for it. It's been over a year since I have last sat in a 15" seat.
You know what? That's a good idea, I am going to head back to the tack shop this afternoon to sit on some 16" seats.



> Personally if it were me. Instead of buying a new saddle - I would shim the one you have - because of Fly being downhill and her shape you may need to shim almost any saddle you ride in.


Shim my old saddle? But the saddle fits considerably worse on Fly than the new saddle does.



> Just as an observation you seem keen to spend money on things that you think will make you a better rider (mohair cinch, half chaps, different boots, different saddle) You have spent more money on gadgets in the short time Ihave been reading your journal than I have in the past 3 years - and I am on my 3rd riding horse this year!!!!! and all have been different shapes.
> 
> Stop buying things and ride more - venture out more. Ride other horses - meet new friends. You can do this Hoofpic - you have made great strides and have a wonderful little horse - just enjoy for a bit and put your money into more lessons and not more gadgets.


I don't mean to be buying new things all the time. Half chaps, gloves, new boots do and have helped me greatly. Mohair cinch I've had since the first day owning the old saddle.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I really appreciate it that people on here still believe in me. I will admit that there is one gelding at the barn that I would eventually like to ride (the one that my friend fell off twice from) lol.


----------



## Hoofpic

Here is Fly at the old barn from August 2015. One of the very few pictures that I took when I was at the old barn (Which I now deeply regret), because I would have loved to show you guys my journey at the old barn when I was there.

Does she look any thinner in this pic versus now? Her feet were quite bad in this picture, but they're all fixed up now.

I no longer tie her in rope halters, I don't even use rope halters on her anymore. This was a replica of the Clint Anderson training rope halter that my trainer made and sold me at the time. The very first day that he came to meet Fly, she turned her butt to him and he said that same day, we need to put this halter on her to do groundwork.


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> Trust me, I am going to ride whenever I can in the winter, but because in Canada we get harsh winters, it won't be as much as now. No one in Canada will be able to ride as much in the winter as they do in the spring and summer. It's just not possible.


Yeah, NOT TRUE, depends on the winter. I may miss some rides because the roads are to bad to get there, we may cancel a couple because of the cold. Last winter I think one day was cancelled. It is sheer NONSENSE to say no one on Canada can ride as much in winter as they do in Spring and summer....
@carshon was correct here



> What everyone is telling you is to find a saddle that has a seat that will help you find the optimal riding position for the disciplines you want to ride in. You mention ranch riding and trail riding - a barrel saddle is not the best choice for these. The 16" seat will feel different now as you have more confidence and are riding a different horse.


I must say though I do admire your confidence in yourself that you are happy riding in a saddle that most people would see as a ladies saddle, that takes some bravery.


----------



## PoptartShop

I'd definitely at least TRY the 16" saddle. You never know, you might like it! Might be hard to get used to, but you'll notice you can do a lot more in it.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks but you don't sit my sitting trot?


Not sure what this was supposed to say, but your sitting trot in the earlier videos was pretty bad. Haven't seen it more recently, so not sure how much it's improved? Also, it's No Stirrups November, and you would benefit from some no stirrup work, definitely. I didn't have the sitting trot down until I drilled it for a couple of weeks without my irons, now I'm golden. Would do you some good, I bet!



Hoofpic said:


> Trust me, I am going to ride whenever I can in the winter, but because in Canada we get harsh winters, it won't be as much as now.


To sum up what @Golden Horse said, _pffffffft_. I'm not taking back my comment about you being a fairweather rider if that's how it's going to be, this is just silly. You have an indoor arena, make use of it!



Hoofpic said:


> Next Spring I would like to take her to a show/clinic and at least one trail ride somewhere outside of the barn for a day.


These are good, achievable goals. I'd be working on your balance a lot (in case she gets tense/spooks at a show or out on the trail), plus I would start loading her into a trailer and making her comfortable in one sooner rather than later. Maybe even trailer her out with your trainer to an off site facility to use a different arena for a lesson, just so you have an idea of how she'll act when you ride her in a new environment.

And like I said, I'm not weighing in on the saddle fit because that's not my area, but I ride in a 15" western saddle, so unless you're 5'0" and weigh 120 pounds...


----------



## Hoofpic

I know im going to disappoint many of you so I wont say much.

Im just leaving the shop (who has 1500 saddles in stock) and i spent quite a bit of time feeling out 16" saddles and I know now know what I want for seat size.


----------



## sarahfromsc

:cheers:


Golden Horse said:


> Yeah, NOT TRUE, depends on the winter. I may miss some rides because the roads are to bad to get there, we may cancel a couple because of the cold. Last winter I think one day was cancelled. It is sheer NONSENSE to say no one on Canada can ride as much in winter as they do in Spring and summer....
> @carshon was correct here
> 
> 
> 
> I must say though I do admire your confidence in yourself that you are happy riding in a saddle that most people would see as a ladies saddle, that takes some bravery.


:cheers:


----------



## natisha

Golden Horse said:


> Yeah, NOT TRUE, depends on the winter. I may miss some rides because the roads are to bad to get there, we may cancel a couple because of the cold. Last winter I think one day was cancelled. It is sheer NONSENSE to say no one on Canada can ride as much in winter as they do in Spring and summer....
> @carshon was correct here
> 
> 
> 
> I must say though I do admire your confidence in yourself that you are happy riding in a saddle that most people would see as a ladies saddle, that takes some bravery.


I didn't know saddles were gender specific.


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## Golden Horse

natisha said:


> I didn't know saddles were gender specific.



Really, that surprises me because there certainly are saddles marketed for women. I did run an experiment because I wondered about my own perceptions, so I showed that saddle to some people, and all of them said ladies or teenage girls saddle.


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## Dehda01

Wedging yourself in a tiny seat does not encourage learning an independent, following seat. You may feel secure, but it is training wheels. 

And a small, tight seat will often create nasty saddle sores on long rides for most riders. Being able to shift is a good thing. Particularly once you learn about seat cues.


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## paintedpastures

Golden Horse said:


> Really, that surprises me because there certainly are saddles marketed for women. I did run an experiment because I wondered about my own perceptions, so I showed that saddle to some people, and all of them said ladies or teenage girls saddle.


I would agree most saddles are unisex but in particular barrel racing saddles they are primarily ridden in by women:biggrin: which is what this saddle is...


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## natisha

paintedpastures said:


> I would agree most saddles are unisex but in particular barrel racing saddles they are primarily ridden in by women:biggrin: which is what this saddle is...


I suppose so but guys barrel race too, this saddle is not blingy & blue is for boys.
I suspect Hoofpic was more concerned about fit than fashion.


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## Rainaisabelle

Well moving on, I think you should go up in size, is it 15" ? I can't remember ... maybe try 15.5 and if it stil feels right I would go up to a 16".

Being jammed in isn't going to teach you anything and will probably end up making you ride a bit funny. 

No stirrup November I think will be very beneficial to you! Even if you just do walk/ trot. If you are bouncing a lot at the trot I wouldn't do it very often but try to remember to engage your core and think of long legs


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Rainaisabelle said:


> Well moving on, I think you should go up in size, is it 15" ? I can't remember ... maybe try 15.5 and if it stil feels right I would go up to a 16".
> 
> Being jammed in isn't going to teach you anything and will probably end up making you ride a bit funny.
> 
> No stirrup November I think will be very beneficial to you! Even if you just do walk/ trot. If you are bouncing a lot at the trot I wouldn't do it very often but try to remember to engage your core and think of long legs


*doesnt feel right is what that's supposed to say


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> I suppose so but guys barrel race too, this saddle is not blingy & blue is for boys.
> I suspect Hoofpic was more concerned about fit than fashion.


Yes I went for a saddle that was about fi, comfort and quality. I don't care if it's a saddle that's mostly ridden by women (and I didn't know this), people can judge me all they want. Even if a saddle was bright pink with shiny glitter on it and I loved it and it couldn't be a better fit on Fly, I wouldn't be hesitant to buy it.


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## jaydee

natisha said:


> I didn't know saddles were gender specific.


 I must say that having saddles 'gender specific' in terms of size is the biggest load of rubbish that I've ever heard
Surely to goodness a saddle is designed to fit a person based on their height/leg length and the size of their backside
A man with a skinny butt is going to fit better into a smaller seated saddle than a woman with a large butt
Based on this size comparison a 16 inch western saddle = an 18 inch English saddle
Saddle Size Comparison Chart | eBay
Now while hoofpic might want to have an 18 inch for his height & leg length his horse looks way too small to be put in an 18 inch saddle - even though they have more distribution than an English saddle its going to put it close to beyond her 18th vertebrae so put the horse at greater risk than if he compromises and uses a smaller size - and as he doesn't look to be large in the rear end area I can't see it being that big a deal for him


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I must say that having saddles 'gender specific' in terms of size is the biggest load of rubbish that I've ever heard
> Surely to goodness a saddle is designed to fit a person based on their height/leg length and the size of their backside
> A man with a skinny butt is going to fit better into a smaller seated saddle than a woman with a large butt
> Based on this size comparison a 16 inch western saddle = an 18 inch English saddle
> Saddle Size Comparison Chart | eBay
> Now while hoofpic might want to have an 18 inch for his height & leg length his horse looks way too small to be put in an 18 inch saddle - even though they have more distribution than an English saddle its going to put it close to beyond her 18th vertebrae so put the horse at greater risk than if he compromises and uses a smaller size - and as he doesn't look to be large in the rear end area I can't see it being that big a deal for him


Thanks.

I sat in the same Billy Cook saddle yesterday (not the same round skirt model as they only come in 13,14 and 15" seats), but with a squared skirt and 16" seat and not only did I not find it nearly as comfortable as my 15", but it was 5" longer from the very front point of the saddle to the very back point. On a shorter and smaller horse, 5" is pretty significant.

Fly's old saddle is 24" right on the button front to back and that was probably the longest saddle I would like to see on her. My new one is 21", that's 3" shorter, yet on her, it looks 6" shorter than the old saddle. Even if I did find the 16" more comfy, putting a 26.5" saddle on her front to back is too big especially one with a squared skirt. Her pad is only 28" and I like to have at least 1-1.5" clearance on both ends.

I can't remember who told me, but when I got Fly, they said that I should stick with round skirts on Fly. 

I spent a good 2 hours in the saddle shop yesterday, looked and sat in all their 16" saddles, (mostly roppers and barrel), and the shortest I was able to find was 26.5" (and that was the Billy Cook barrel with the squared skirt), all the roppers were 28" and up. Plus they were huge, bulky and heavy with back cinches. They made my old saddle look light (which I still consider it to be light for a roping saddle). Getting a much lighter and less clunky saddle was one of the things I wanted. This saddle shop has approx 1500 new and used saddles in stock.


----------



## jaydee

One inch in the actual seat isn't going to make a massive difference to you and how you fit in it - I looked at some of your videos and I don't see someone 'overflowing' or sitting on the very back of the saddle so I can't see that smaller size affecting how you ride or how comfortable you are
On the other hand putting a bigger saddle on your mare could make her uncomfortable and she has to come first


----------



## Golden Horse

jaydee said:


> I must say that having saddles 'gender specific' in terms of size is the biggest load of rubbish that I've ever heard


Who said it was just based on saddle size?

This is a 15" barrel saddle, it is a saddle mainly bought and used by teenage girls and women that is just a simple fact. Now if Hoofpic is aware of that and is comfortable enough to be riding in it then fine.

The fact that it is a barrel saddle and designed to hold a rider securely for running fast around barrels, and not for a person to actually learn to ride properly, well if Hoofpic doesn't care about that, heck that is fine as well.

BUT, no one is doing him any favours by pretending that it is any thing other than it is, because MOST people look at that saddle and see something that would be owned by a younger women.


----------



## Golden Horse

Oh, and without even mentioning the seat size, just posting the pic and asking "who do you think owns this saddle" this is the response you get:









I had to do a double check to see if my perceptions were screwy here, but seems not.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Dehda01 said:


> Wedging yourself in a tiny seat does not encourage learning an independent, following seat. You may feel secure, but it is training wheels.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

YES!


----------



## bsms

I'm a 58 year old guy. I've got some belly, yet I have no butt and very lean legs. I've met a lot of 15 year old gals who would use more seat than I do. If I was going to get another saddle, I'd go 15 inches. Maybe 15.5, but no bigger. 16" gives me too much room.

Riding properly means moving in fluid balance with the horse. That can be done in a barrel racing saddle, a roping saddle, an Australian saddle, etc.

There are two parts to a western saddle - the tree and the "ground". The tree is supposed to distribute the weight over the largest amount of the horse's back available, reducing the PSI. Going with a very short saddle is not necessarily doing the horse a favor. The ground is the part that is built on top of the tree. Its purpose is to distribute the rider's weight over the greatest and most conforming area possible, reducing the PSI on the rider. By reducing the PSI on BOTH horse and rider, the western saddle protects both.

If you want a saddle to support your rump primarily, then a barrel racing saddle probably has the wrong "ground". If you like your weight carried more in your thighs, then it might be a very good choice - and only Hoofpic can feel how it feels to him.

A barrel racing saddle, as a ROT, will encourage a more forward seat. Nothing wrong with that! And riding properly can include staying on when the horse hits the fan. Some extra help in that area, like an Australian saddle (or barrel racing saddle) gives, is not wrong. My Aussie-style saddle may have saved my life. 

There is no one approach that defines "proper riding". Heck, a proper rider learns to use tack that helps, and adjusts as needed to different tack.

Proper riding is also not just about the rider. It is learning to read the horse, and adjust to the horse. But the only way to learn to read a horse is to sometimes misread a horse. There is nothing wrong with getting some help staying on while getting better at reading a horse. Heck, I misread Bandit the other day, after 8 years of riding and 17 months riding Bandit. It happens.

There is no reason at all that someone cannot learn to ride, and ride well, using a barrel racing saddle. There may even be a few advantages...

I'm not recommending Hoofpic or anyone else buy a barrel racing saddle. But I wouldn't rule one out, either. If it is comfortable for both Fly and Hoofpic, then it isn't wrong.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

He needs to learn an independent seat, jamming himself into a saddle that doesn't let him move completely with the horse isn't teaching him an independent seat.


Maybe we should leave the 'proper' riding technique to the instructor who teaches the lessons.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

I also would just like to say that yes it is important to learn to read a horse and people do learn a lot from misreading them but it can also get that person killed.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> He needs to learn an independent seat, jamming himself into a saddle that doesn't let him move completely with the horse isn't teaching him an independent seat.
> 
> 
> Maybe we should leave the 'proper' riding technique to the instructor who teaches the lessons.


I don't feel jammed inside my seat at all. I feel comfortable and in no way restricted to my movements.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> Oh, and without even mentioning the seat size, just posting the pic and asking "who do you think owns this saddle" this is the response you get:
> 
> View attachment 842650
> 
> 
> I had to do a double check to see if my perceptions were screwy here, but seems not.


That doesn't affect me. I would be fully confident taking Fly to a horse show or clinic in this saddle and wouldn't think twice about what others think of me in it. They can laugh all they want seeing an adult male riding in a saddle apparently catered for teenage girls.


----------



## TimWhit91

From watching his video, hoofpic does not look "jammed" into his seat. He looks fine. If he and fly are comfortable, who cares what size and type it is?


----------



## Golden Horse

Hoofpic said:


> That doesn't affect me. I would be fully confident taking Fly to a horse show or clinic in this saddle and wouldn't think twice about what others think of me in it. They can laugh all they want seeing an adult male riding in a saddle apparently catered for teenage girls.


That is great, I'm glad you feel that way, armed with information and you have made a decision, good for you.



> I don't feel jammed inside my seat at all. I feel comfortable and in no way restricted to my movements.


Still not so great , but whatever, make the most of it I guess


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> One inch in the actual seat isn't going to make a massive difference to you and how you fit in it - I looked at some of your videos and I don't see someone 'overflowing' or sitting on the very back of the saddle so I can't see that smaller size affecting how you ride or how comfortable you are
> On the other hand putting a bigger saddle on your mare could make her uncomfortable and she has to come first


That's how I felt too, going from 15 to 16 isn't a big difference but from the times I've ridden in a 16" seat (15hh Buckskin gelding, 18hh through breed gelding), I felt I had way too much space. 

I know nobody will agree with me, but I'm finding a lot of similarities in riding horses and riding bikes. When I was a kid and into my teenage years, I rode my mountain and speed bikes just about everyday, all the time, even in winters. I tried different seats on them as replacing and upgrading the seat would always be the first modification that I did after I would buy a new bike. Mind you I was a lot shorter back then, but just as skinny with no bum or hips and chicken legs, I always resorted to the tiny small seats because that is what I was most comfortable in.

All I know is that I knew prior to getting Fly that I will be much more limited in what kind of saddles I can use on her. But I was fine with that because I prefer riding smaller horses and the smaller seat. But like JayDee says,...you're not going to be able to use a 16" seat on Fly. They are way too big. And after all this, I do believe that a round skirt is best on her.


----------



## bsms

Rainaisabelle said:


> ...Maybe we should leave the 'proper' riding technique to the instructor who teaches the lessons.


Since when has ANYONE on this thread been content to say, "J_ust do what your trainer, BO, saddle fitter, etc tell you to do..._"?

And yes, you CAN learn an independent seat with a barrel racing saddle, just as you can with an Australian saddle. The idea that someone cannot ride properly in a barrel racing saddle is probably based on a limited view of what "properly" means.


----------



## Hoofpic

Golden Horse said:


> BUT, no one is doing him any favours by pretending that it is any thing other than it is, because MOST people look at that saddle and see something that would be owned by a younger women.


Lots of people at the barn have seen my new saddle and not a single one of them have said "That saddle is made for teenage girls, what are you doing riding in it?" And this is coming from a barn where 90% of the riders ride English and can be a bit prissy in terms of their saddles and tack.

Fit first, looks second.


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## StephaniHren

Golden Horse said:


> BUT, no one is doing him any favours by pretending that it is any thing other than it is, because MOST people look at that saddle and see something that would be owned by a younger women.





Hoofpic said:


> Lots of people at the barn have seen my new saddle and not a single one of them have said "That saddle is made for teenage girls, what are you doing riding in it?" Fit first, looks second.


I think this whole line of conversation is silly and not constructive. Is it a barrel racing saddle? Yes. Are most barrel racers young women? Yes. Does that make this saddle inherently feminine? Of course not. Saddles don't have gender labels on them. I mean, if it had bright pink detailing or something, maybe it might be appropriate to say something (but then again, probably not, because if a guy wants to have a pink saddle, more power to him), but it's just a regular (and rather stylish, I think) saddle. It's got leather, conchos, and stitching on its seat, just like every other western saddle out there that's used by both men and women.

Also, I don't think a poll is going to tell you anything because something like 80% of riders in the US are female (source). If I was taking that poll, choosing that the saddle belonged to a young horse crazy girl wouldn't be a bad guess, statistically. I think the assumptions we make about things are very different than how we react when we see the reality of the situation. Even if I guessed young teenage girl, it's not like I would be overly surprised/insulted/amused/whatever that the saddle belongs to a man.

Re-attaching a picture, because seriously, it's a normal saddle (albeit a barrel racing cut).


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## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> If you want a saddle to support your rump primarily, then a barrel racing saddle probably has the wrong "ground". If you like your weight carried more in your thighs, then it might be a very good choice - and only Hoofpic can feel how it feels to him.


The deeper seat on the new saddle vs my old one is really really nice, but I don't want a saddle to mainly support my rump. I want a saddle that allows me to rely on my leg and core strength. I am in the works of getting my legs and core much stronger, I want this to be the primary thing in what supports me in the saddle. 

Like I said earlier, I see many similarities between riding a horse and bike riding and this is one of them. I learned to ride the bike very quickly and I had very good balance and I eventually got into some advanced level mountain trail riding when I was in Jr high, and I feel I can carry it over to the saddle. Mind you, I am a lot older now, nor do I have the same flexibility, but I do feel that I can regain all (if not most) of my old form back. But it will take work, and I am fully committed to doing what I have to do to get myself there again.

The only bad thing is that I quit bike riding about 10 years ago, so I lack the leg and core strength that I had from my younger years but I have no doubt that I can get myself back to where I was when I was in my 20's.

That is why I am in the works seeing my chiro to get my spine straight again. Right now my spine is out of line and leans quite a bit to my left. Once I accomplish this, I feel that I will notice a big difference not only in terms of my balance and mobility, but strengthening my core. 



> A barrel racing saddle, as a ROT, will encourage a more forward seat. Nothing wrong with that! And riding properly can include staying on when the horse hits the fan. Some extra help in that area, like an Australian saddle (or barrel racing saddle) gives, is not wrong. My Aussie-style saddle may have saved my life.


What do you mean by ROT? And I did consider an Aussie saddle as well even before buying my first saddle. 



> There is no one approach that defines "proper riding". Heck, a proper rider learns to use tack that helps, and adjusts as needed to different tack.
> 
> Proper riding is also not just about the rider. It is learning to read the horse, and adjust to the horse. But the only way to learn to read a horse is to sometimes misread a horse. There is nothing wrong with getting some help staying on while getting better at reading a horse. Heck, I misread Bandit the other day, after 8 years of riding and 17 months riding Bandit. It happens.
> 
> There is no reason at all that someone cannot learn to ride, and ride well, using a barrel racing saddle. There may even be a few advantages...
> 
> I'm not recommending Hoofpic or anyone else buy a barrel racing saddle. But I wouldn't rule one out, either. If it is comfortable for both Fly and Hoofpic, then it isn't wrong.


All I know is that (from my short time in it thus far), riding in a barrel saddle is most definitely very different from riding in a roper. But it's different in a good way. Just my opinion.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> He needs to learn an independent seat, jamming himself into a saddle that doesn't let him move completely with the horse isn't teaching him an independent seat.
> 
> 
> Maybe we should leave the 'proper' riding technique to the instructor who teaches the lessons.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't feel jammed inside my seat at all. I feel comfortable and in no way restricted to my movements.
Click to expand...

You really didn't get any part of that post. Last I'm going to say it's giving me heart palpitations and I'm too young for that


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> All I know is that I knew prior to getting Fly that I will be much more limited in what kind of saddles I can use on her. But I was fine with that because I prefer riding smaller horses and the smaller seat. But like JayDee says,...*you're not going to be able to use a 16" seat on Fly. They are way too big.* And after all this, I do believe that a round skirt is best on her.


Gonna have to disagree with the bold. My best friend's filly is 14.2hh and about 800-900lbs. She has a very short back (Arab/QH, as far as we can tell). She has been ridden in a 15.5-16" roping saddle (so has full skirts) for most of her riding life. It's never rubbed her hips, nor caused her to have a sore back.

Heck, look at most cutting horses. Those horses aren't usually bigger than 14.2hh and they've got big men riding them in equally big saddles (most men that are the size of the ones riding cutting horses, that I know of, prefer a 16-17" seat).


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> All I know is that (from my short time in it thus far), riding in a barrel saddle is most definitely very different from riding in a roper. But it's different in a good way. Just my opinion.


Of course they feel different. They are built differently on different types of trees. I prefer a deeper seat, like a barrel saddle, myself. Which is why I was surprised by how comfy my Hereford is.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Gonna have to disagree with the bold. My best friend's filly is 14.2hh and about 800-900lbs. She has a very short back (Arab/QH, as far as we can tell). She has been ridden in a 15.5-16" roping saddle (so has full skirts) for most of her riding life. It's never rubbed her hips, nor caused her to have a sore back.
> 
> Heck, look at most cutting horses. Those horses aren't usually bigger than 14.2hh and they've got big men riding them in equally big saddles (most men that are the size of the ones riding cutting horses, that I know of, prefer a 16-17" seat).


Well perhaps you can find a 16" seat with a length no longer than 24", but for me it's not worth the leg work because I don't feel as comfortable in a 16" seat. I was talking to the shop owner yesterday at the tack shop and she told me that 26.5" on that Billy Cook barrel that I was looking at and trying out is about the shortest saddle that I will ever find with a 16" seat. 

Those guys riding cutting horses in 16-17" seats are A LOT bigger than me. For my height, I am 40lbs underweight.


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## tinyliny

I watched video of hoofpic riding in the barrel saddle. it is not well balanced for either horse or rider. it pitches him forward.

sorry , Hoofpic. I think that saddle is a no go.
a barrel saddle will have much less room for your long thighbone than a different type of western saddle. Fly's back does not look like a complicated one to fit. she can carry a 16 inch, if the skirts are short and rounded. why don't you look into an endurance type saddle.?

endurance riders usually ride with a very long leg and basically just stand in the saddle. you might like that way of riding.

I don't personally like Tucker saddles, but many people do. and, with legs as thin as yours, the typically wide twist of the Tucker saddles might feel right. for me, with fat thighs, I need a very narrow twisted saddle type.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Well perhaps you can find a 16" seat with a length no longer than 24", but for me it's not worth the leg work because I don't feel as comfortable in a 16" seat. I was talking to the shop owner yesterday at the tack shop and she told me that 26.5" on that Billy Cook barrel that I was looking at and trying out is about the shortest saddle that I will ever find with a 16" seat.
> 
> Those guys riding cutting horses in 16-17" seats are A LOT bigger than me. For my height, I am 40lbs underweight.


I've never measured the skirts on the saddles we've had on Toui, but I can guarantee you that all of them were longer than 24". My barrel saddle has loooong skirts (28"?) and it fit her just fine.

My point about the guys riding cutting horses in 16-17" seats is that the saddle isn't too long/big for their little 14.2hh or smaller cow ponies. :icon_rolleyes:


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> But like JayDee says,...you're not going to be able to use a 16" seat on Fly. They are way too big. And after all this, I do believe that a round skirt is best on her.





DraftyAiresMum said:


> Heck, look at most cutting horses. Those horses aren't usually bigger than 14.2hh and they've got big men riding them in equally big saddles (most men that are the size of the ones riding cutting horses, that I know of, prefer a 16-17" seat).


I think a big problem we have here is that you're confusing shorter/lighter with _better_, Hoofpic. Finding a saddle with a length that's less than 24" narrows your options considerably—and is probably unnecessary, in my opinion. A better rule to follow is the Last Rib Rule, where the base of the saddle's cantle shouldn't come past the horse's last rib (source). I mean, obviously you don't want the saddle to rub the horse's hip, but 24" seems really short, considering that you put a 28" long pad under it anyways.

Honestly, I think the saddle looks sort of tiny on her, in an almost comical way.



tinyliny said:


> I watched video of hoofpic riding in the barrel saddle. it is not well balanced for either horse or rider. it pitches him forward.


I think Tiny tends to give pretty good advice, so while I'm not great at western saddle fit, I've watched the video and lean this way, too. I also think that you've rushed into the whole "saddle buying business" (which goes back to you throwing a lot of money around on equipment when you should be spending it on lessons, just saying), and you've picked up the first saddle that struck your fancy, which doesn't make it the _best_ saddle. I'm also saddle shopping right now and I've taken seven saddles out on trial already...

I would return this one and keep looking, because here's the facts:


That saddle is made for barrel racing, which isn't what you're doing (or what you want to do in the future).
It doesn't look like it puts you in the best of positions, which is important since you're just learning.
The seat size is probably a little too small, since most men ride in a 16" saddle minimum.
You've been limiting yourself to 24" and there's probably something better that's a little bigger out there (and will still fit Fly fine).
This saddle is brand new, so you're paying way too much money for it when you should be buying used.
Heck, the saddle being new and having a new saddle price tag on it would be a deal breaker for me right out of the gate.


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## Hoofpic

^ I am not limiting myself to 24" skirts, I just want to ride in a super light and less clunky saddle. For me, less is better. The only reason why I am not trying English is because English (though you have more contact with the horse), it's even harder to balance. I will eventually try it, just not now.

I've had two rides in the new saddle so far and I think it's far too quick to judge on how I fully settle into it. Remember when you guys said to give it more time? The first ride in it was rough yes, with all the saddle slipping with that blue pad, but the second one on Sunday was significantly better in terms of me getting more comfortable in it. I felt great in that second ride, I just need to adjust the fenders. That was my only problem. Of course with the saddle being brand new, that's not going to help over a used one where the leathers are all soft and broken in. 

I am not arguing with you guys, I just think we need to give it more time. If it doesn't work then I have no problem moving on and finding a new one. But so far from my limited time in the new saddle, I am really liking the feel and experience so far. 

Stephani, after talking with the owner, it turns out this saddle that I bought is brand new, it was just in the wrong section in the store and that would explain why I was questioning if it was a used saddle or not. This specific model was made exclusive by Billy Cook to this one shop. You can't get used for this...at least not yet. The shop owner says that they are selling a lot of these and none have been traded in yet.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> ^ I am not limiting myself to 24" skirts, I just want to ride in a super light and less clunky saddle.


Why? Think long and hard about the answer to this, because if it's a "weight of the equipment" thing, that's silly. Do you really think Fly cares about ten pounds more?



Hoofpic said:


> I am not arguing with you guys, I just think we need to give it more time.


How much time do you have left on your trial? Better start riding in it more, if you really want to test it out, because there _is_ a time limit. Again, though, I'd have already returned it and kept looking for something _used_.



Hoofpic said:


> Stephani, after talking with the owner, it turns out this saddle that I bought is brand new, it was just in the wrong section in the store and that would explain why I was questioning if it was a used saddle or not.


I know it's brand new. That's why I'm saying you shouldn't buy it, buying a brand new saddle is like buying a new car. You lose half the value the moment you take it out the door. I get that you can't find this model used yet, but you don't need _this _model. Even if you're really stuck on the idea of a barrel saddle, go find a used one!


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## Rainaisabelle

bsms said:


> Since when has ANYONE on this thread been content to say, "J_ust do what your trainer, BO, saddle fitter, etc tell you to do..._"?
> 
> And yes, you CAN learn an independent seat with a barrel racing saddle, just as you can with an Australian saddle. The idea that someone cannot ride properly in a barrel racing saddle is probably based on a limited view of what "properly" means.


I believe people have given advice but also given the bottom line of 'listen to your trainer above all as she can see what is going on' just because we don't all agree the trainer is the best she's obviously made some headway with hoofpic. 

Yes you can learn an independent seat from a barrel saddle, one that isn't jamming you in.


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## bsms

A bit off topic, but not entirely:

A very good book, available in the US from Amazon for $0.01 plus shipping, is A History of Horsemanship: The Story of Man's Ways and Means of Riding Horses From Ancient Times to Present by Charles Chenevix-Trench.

Want to know how the Greeks rode in 500 BC? Cavalry in 800 BC? Chinese women polo players 1500 years ago? Plains Indians in the mid-1800s? Dressage in the 1600s? Lots of pictures and a good discussion by the author, who was in the British Cavalry in the 1930s.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Why? Think long and hard about the answer to this, because if it's a "weight of the equipment" thing, that's silly. Do you really think Fly cares about ten pounds more?


It's not so much that but more so that I don't like heavy tack. This is one reason why I did at one point consider getting an English saddle before I got my first one.



> How much time do you have left on your trial? Better start riding in it more, if you really want to test it out, because there _is_ a time limit. Again, though, I'd have already returned it and kept looking for something _used_.


Today is the last day, the owner said she could extend it one day if needed, so tomorrow. I will ride today.



> I know it's brand new. That's why I'm saying you shouldn't buy it, buying a brand new saddle is like buying a new car. You lose half the value the moment you take it out the door. I get that you can't find this model used yet, but you don't need _this _model. Even if you're really stuck on the idea of a barrel saddle, go find a used one!


This shop had used barrels and they were (mostly Billy Cooks) and they were 30-50% more than what I paid for this Billy Cook new. I didn't go in telling myself that I was going to buy a brand new saddle, I had my eye solely on used. I didn't even look at the new section (well I did but briefly until I saw $3500+ price tags). It just happened to be that this specific saddle is brand new. I did some comparing and even though no one else sells this specific model with the round skirt, the clone model but with the squared skirt is $1600 brand new at this same shop and $1900 at another. I don't think it's priced all that bad, but that's just my opinion.


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## DraftyAiresMum

StephaniHren said:


> Why? Think long and hard about the answer to this, because if it's a "weight of the equipment" thing, that's silly. Do you really think Fly cares about ten pounds more?
> 
> 
> How much time do you have left on your trial? Better start riding in it more, if you really want to test it out, because there _is_ a time limit. Again, though, I'd have already returned it and kept looking for something _used_.
> 
> 
> I know it's brand new. That's why I'm saying you shouldn't buy it, buying a brand new saddle is like buying a new car. You lose half the value the moment you take it out the door. I get that you can't find this model used yet, but you don't need _this _model. Even if you're really stuck on the idea of a barrel saddle, go find a used one!


^^ Listen to this!

My Hereford is a 16" seat and its skirts are shorter than my 16" Circle A barrel saddle's are. I'd say they're probably 26" or so. The saddle, with the heavy stirrups that are on it, probably weighs about 25-30lbs. Really considerably lightweight compared to the 40+lbs roping saddles I'm used to around here. We've had it on my best friend's mare with the short back (the one I mentioned before) and it was fine on her.


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## Golden Horse

StephaniHren said:


> I think this whole line of conversation is silly and not constructive. Is it a barrel racing saddle? Yes. Are most barrel racers young women? Yes.



And that is the long and short of it, and why it IS constructive, and not silly. Hoofpic did not know this simple fact, and now he does, and he does not care, that is fantastic, he has made an informed choice. I still say the saddle is not right for the pair of them, BUT I am content that HP is not worried about how the majority of people would view the saddle.
Save​


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## Golden Horse

Now when you went into the store that has 1500 saddles, I wonder how many actually were 'available' to you? There would I guess be lots of ropers and heavy work saddles, that would be heavier than you are looking for, lots of 16" and bigger, that you don't want to look at, so your choice was a lot less.

Now did they have anything like this

A Tucker Trail Saddle











~~Ride On! ~~: 15.5 Tucker Buffalo Trail

I have no idea of its size etc, but looks like a nice using, comfortable saddle..not suggesting you go buy it, but putting it out there for research purposes.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Looks like it says that's a 15.5", @Golden Horse. Might be ideal for Hoofpic.


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## Golden Horse

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Looks like it says that's a 15.5", @*Golden Horse* . Might be ideal for Hoofpic.


I was more thinking on length and width for Fly...I'm sure HP would be comfortable in it, and most people seem to rate Tuckers as good saddles I think.


ETA: again not saying he should buy this, just putting another option of shorter length saddle out there.


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## bsms

Some speculation on why men and women might choose a different saddle and approach to riding:






See a discussion starting here ( http://www.horseforum.com/member-jo...g-through-together-622121/page16/#post9264817 ), and running thru about post #314, including this one:



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> From this experiment, my observational theory is this: a man with his weight on the balls of his feet under his hips and his shoulders tipped forward is not on balance, which is why he cannot stand up with the chair. A woman in the same position remains on balance.
> 
> It might explain why the “home” stirrup position (pressure on the more centralized area of the foot), with the feet more forward in what is typically called “a chair seat” is more on balance position for a male rider who is also tipping his shoulders forward at the same time.
> 
> In contrast, a female rider can get away with being on the balls of her feet, feet beneath her hips and still tip the shoulders forward and also remain on balance.
> 
> I knew when I played ice hockey, that if I wanted to take down a male puck handler, my best bet was to take his shoulders out of balance with the rest of his body. If it was a female, that same hit had little to no effect, it had to be a hip check.
> 
> When defending a one on one, (skating backwards and controlling the gap between yourself and the puck handler), watch a man’s chest and a woman’s lower belly those were the parts that led on any quick change of direction.


An Australian lady pointed out to me a few years back that most of the men she new rode with their feet further forward than she liked. Neither of us knew why, although I like my feet further forward as well. I think that video may explain why, for some of us. Personally, if my heels are under my hip and I lean forward...I don't need a chair to make me fall! And it is understandable, then, that I would not like a position that leaves me vulnerable if my horse slows without my asking - as all my horses feel free to do.

"The deeper seat on the new saddle vs my old one is really really nice, but I don't want a saddle to mainly support my rump. I want a saddle that allows me to rely on my leg and core strength. I am in the works of getting my legs and core much stronger, I want this to be the primary thing in what supports me in the saddle. " - @Hoofpic

I started riding by reading the US Cavalry and Littauer, both of who recommended a forward seat. Nothing wrong with leaning forward some when riding:








​ 
That was specifically written for a beginning rider, BTW. And a barrel racing saddle wouldn't be bad, for that approach.

I agree a horse normally doesn't care much about the weight of the saddle, and cares more about how the weight is distributed. I also note that my 13.0 hand mustang, with a short back, has no trouble carrying a 26.5" long western saddle with rounded skirts - and this is NOT a long back (my wife is 5'2")!








​ 
My own saddle is a slick seat, slick fork saddle. I wish I had it made with roughout leather and a 15" seat. And if Hoofpic DOES go to a larger seat, he also always has the option of shrinking it down with sheepskin - while nothing can make it bigger!

But how a saddle feels to you is a very individual thing. It also changes with time, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has more saddles than horses...:icon_rolleyes:


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## jaydee

If he was 'jammed' into the saddle he wouldn't be able to post - which he can.
Hoofpics riding problems don't come from the saddle size he's using
He could probably find a more suitable saddle - but it needn't essentially be bigger, just a different design. I can totally understand why he's taking weight into consideration and unless he has some great desire to ride western from that persepective he likely would be better looking at endurance saddles or English AP saddles
Again - If the 16 inch western compares to an 18 inch English no way would I put an 18 inch English saddle on that mare, an 18 inch English saddle is geared towards a 16 hand plus horse
The thing about a certain saddle size or saddle being suited to a teenage girl of woman is pure stereotyping and not a professional approach to saddle fitting at all. Based on that philosophy you'd put a 252 pound female in a 15 inch saddle and a skinny 140 pound male in a 16 inch plus which is nonsense
This is a better guide as it doesn't bring gender into the equation but even then you've got to take into account what 'average means' because its the size of whats sitting on the saddle that matters - in actual fact the average size male has a smaller butt than the average size female because women are wider and larger in the pelvic area which makes further nonsense of that sterotyping


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## Dehda01

It isn't weight that makes the biggest difference in a saddle fitting for humans, it is femur length. That is how you figure out how the stirrup bars fit properly in correspondence to the body. Sometimes human conformationalso needs to be taken into account, but height is much of the equation... not weight!!!


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Lots of people at the barn have seen my new saddle and not a single one of them have said "That saddle is made for teenage girls, what are you doing riding in it?" And this is coming from a barn where 90% of the riders ride English and can be a bit prissy in terms of their saddles and tack.
> 
> Fit first, looks second.



Didn't one of the girls at the barn mention to you it looked like a small seat? I recall you being offended by that remark. And I believe she was stopping short of saying something about it being a barrel saddle. Point being, although you say you don't care if people judge you, you often get upset when you feel you are being judged. Now you know that most people will see that saddle as primarily a women's/girl's saddle, it is a saddle built for barrel racing and if you choose it, knowing that, don't start getting offended if you get comments. It isn't like you haven't been informed. If you love it, great, but just remember that there WILL be comments (direct and indirect) so be prepared.


As for the seat size, sometimes learning by experience sticks with one better.




What do you mean English riders can be a bit prissy about saddles and tack??


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## Rainaisabelle

Yes what do you mean prissy about tack ?


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## DraftyAiresMum




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## jaydee

Dehda01 said:


> It isn't weight that makes the biggest difference in a saddle fitting for humans, it is femur length. That is how you figure out how the stirrup bars fit properly in correspondence to the body. Sometimes human conformationalso needs to be taken into account, but height is much of the equation... not weight!!!


 So you think that someone that weighs 250lb that has the same femur length as someone who weighs 130lbs is going to fit their backside into the same size saddle as the 130lb person?
Femur length has a much bigger influence of English saddle choice because we ride shorter stirrup (other than dressage).


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## bsms

Particularly with a western saddle, things like height, weight, femur length, etc don't tell a person much. The steepness of the cantle can make a huge difference in how it feels. Femur length is relevant only if you know at what angle the thigh goes down, which can easily vary from 45 degrees to 75 degrees.

The shape of the upper part of the saddle will affect how the rider's weight is distributed. It often affects the angle at which the leg lies, since it is often shaped to support the rider's weight via the leg. The angle at which the front of the seat rises, how much it rises, how curved the cantle is - that all factors in. Someone like myself, with essentially no butt, will fit a saddle very differently from someone else of the same height, weight, and limb proportions.

My saddle was designed to be roomier and easier to move around it - a good thing on a 12 hour day of work, but not so good if my horse decides east would be a better direction to travel than west! I'm happy when most of my weight is carried in my thighs. My wife likes most of her weight carried by her rump. Neither is wrong - but it sure can affect what saddle you like to ride!

BTW - if you prefer a shorter saddle, don't rule out an Abetta. The picture below has our Circle Y (yellow, 25 lbs), the Abetta (white, 15 lbs), and the Bates Caprilli CC saddle (leather, 12 lbs) I used to own. Our Abetta looks brand new after 5-6 years - not bad for a $380 US brand new saddle:


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Well perhaps you can find a 16" seat with a length no longer than 24", but for me it's *not worth the leg work* because I don't feel as comfortable in a 16" seat.



The problem is, you want a saddle right NOW and don't want to do the leg work to really look. It appears you are trying to talk yourself into it. You have about 4 opinions here that are urging you to get the saddle, and many, many more who are cautioning you about it. It is almost as if you just want to find someone to agree with you rather than really considering the majority of opinions.Your choice. It will be interesting to hear how you feel about this saddle after riding it for 6 months.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Whinnie said:


> The problem is, you want a saddle right NOW and don't want to do the leg work to really look. It appears you are trying to talk yourself into it. You have about 4 opinions here that are urging you to get the saddle, and many, many more who are cautioning you about it. It is almost as if you just want to find someone to agree with you rather than really considering the majority of opinions.Your choice. It will be interesting to hear how you feel about this saddle after riding it for 6 months.


I've been looking for the "perfect" saddle for* almost five years* (as long as I've owned my gelding). I finally found it in my Hereford ($350 used from a local tack shop). Not brand new (who wants a squeaky saddle, anyway?) and not top of the line, but still good quality. Best part is, I can throw it up on my 17hh gelding without help. You're so much taller than Fly's back, even putting a heavy saddle on her wouldn't be a problem for you. I have a shoulder injury that makes lifting any weight above chest height VERY difficult. I have the added difficulty that I find the majority of western saddles ridiculously uncomfortable. I loved my Aussie saddle, but well-made ones are impossible to find in my area (the really nice one I bought and LOVED was too wide for my gelding, so I had to sell it).

Sometimes you get lucky and find the perfect saddle quickly. Other times, you have to be patient to find what will work for you. I've bought and sold a good half dozen saddles in that five years I was searching. None of them cost me more than $300 and I resold all of them for as much as I paid for them (or more). But, in trying all those different saddles, I figured out what features I liked, what features I didn't like, and when the time came that I found the perfect saddle, I knew it would work without even having to try it on my horse (did anyway, but yeah...). It took going to the two local tack consignment shops in town on an almost bi-weekly basis, talking to the saddle maker in town, searching Craigslist (sometimes looking as far as three hours away from where I live), and hitting every tack sale and auction I could find, before I finally found my Hereford.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic, from your pictures you certainly are not 40 lbs underweight! You're about the same height as my hubby, he weighs 10 pounds less than you do, and he's also muscular which would weight more than fat. Hubby rides a 16 inch seat and has for almost 6 decades----my 15 inch seat Hereford does not work for him if he's trying to ride at more than a walk.


What bsms posted on standing in the stirrups, etc. applies to an English saddle, specifically for a hand gallop or a full gallop when you get your butt out of the seat. However, a Western saddle is ridden differently than an English, so you sit the hand gallop and full gallop----even barrel racers don't really take a forward seat like you would in an English saddle. 


Hoofpic may attempt to post, but he's still double bouncing rather than correctly moving with the horse's trot, and even after many lessons still doesn't know diagonals. In other words, he's not posting and is just moving going up and down in an attempt to appear to post. He lacks balance which is needed to post correctly and I suspect some of his balance issue is riding in a too small seat. This is why I also question his trainer's abilities since normally, the sitting trot is taught first so the rider gets a feel for the 2 beat and learns to balance with the movement plus posting is not "normal" in Western and is an English movement for the most part (which doesn't mean if I'm riding a w/t/c horse, and we're doing a ground covering trot, I not going to post, because I do post that bone shattering gait!)


Now I'm out of here.....he doesn't seem to really want any help from those of us who've been riding and competing successfully for decades.


----------



## updownrider

bsms said:


> I started riding by reading the US Cavalry and Littauer, both of who recommended a forward seat. Nothing wrong with leaning forward some when riding:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> That was specifically written for a beginning rider *learning to ride English*, BTW.* A proper saddle would be an English saddle.
> *


Littauer taught English riding. My corrections are in red.


----------



## updownrider

Prairie said:


> Now I'm out of here.....he doesn't seem to really want any help from those of us who've been riding and competing successfully for decades.


Agree. Even when I said something nice to Hoofpic I was ignored.


----------



## Dehda01

As I said... at some point, human conformation does start to play a role, particularly with a plus sized rider- which he is not. But I have been both obese and more normal sized and I require in the same sized saddles.


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## Golden Horse

Yeah, good luck Hoofpic. time for me to quit, because what the heck do I know....Good luck mate you'll need it


----------



## bsms

"What bsms posted on standing in the stirrups, etc. applies to an English saddle, specifically for a hand gallop or a full gallop when you get your butt out of the seat. However, a Western saddle is ridden differently than an English, so you sit the hand gallop and full gallop----even barrel racers don't really take a forward seat like you would in an English saddle...plus posting is not "normal" in Western and is an English movement for the most part..." - @*Prairie* 

A forward seat is based on balance and centers of gravity, not standing in the stirrups per se. Thus, western riders often use a forward seat by leaning forward, just as someone would in a jump saddle - only lower. Gen Chamberlin's point involved getting one's center of gravity over the stirrups, and forward.

That is entirely possible in a western saddle, as is riding with most of the weight in your thighs and not in your rump.

Although Jane Savoie did this illustration for English saddles, all the positions work in western saddles as well. Where I differ from her is my belief that the first THREE positions are valid - the third being a good defensive position, particularly if you drop the stirrup a little more and straighten the back up:








​ 







​ 
Just as you can post in a western saddle (and a great many consider it normal), and do not have to sit the trot, one can also follow Gen Chamberlin's ideas - western, English or Australian. But a western saddle type which tends to hang the stirrups further forward, and that is shaped to support more weight in the thighs than rump, makes it easier to use a forward seat - which Hoofpic seems to want.

I like three of the four positions Jane Savoie showed, depending on circumstances. If I could only use one, it would be the forward seat - but I'm glad I'm not limited. And there are illustrations from the 1800s showing western riders using a forward seat. Caprilli wasn't the first by any means (Rembrandt, 1655):


----------



## updownrider

As someone said earlier, we should leave the training up to Hoofpic's trainer. Rembrandt is irrelevant to Hoofpic's riding and saddle fit since it is outdated, and it is not 1655.


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## Rainaisabelle

In the end he will pick what he wants and do what he wants with his money. 


Peace out.


----------



## Hoofpic

I just adjusted my fenders and no more rubbing on the inside of my knees. Phew!

I am getting more and more comfortable and used to the saddle. I had a good 45 min ride today. 

Oh thing that I notice about this saddle is that I dont hunch forward or get accidentally lunged forward nearly as much as my old saddle. I am able to keep back more and easily.

The saddle stayed on tight today, no slipping, didnt have to readjust it once.


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## Hoofpic

Saw this on the inside wool lining of the saddle. Is this normal and anyway to fix it? Crazy glue?


----------



## Hoofpic

I checked Flys pad right after the ride and there was no dry spots. I ran over it 4 times to make sure. I get a better feel with the back of my fingers.


----------



## sarahfromsc

bsms said:


> "What bsms posted on standing in the stirrups, etc. applies to an English saddle, specifically for a hand gallop or a full gallop when you get your butt out of the seat. However, a Western saddle is ridden differently than an English, so you sit the hand gallop and full gallop----even barrel racers don't really take a forward seat like you would in an English saddle...plus posting is not "normal" in Western and is an English movement for the most part..." - @*Prairie*
> 
> A forward seat is based on balance and centers of gravity, not standing in the stirrups per se. Thus, western riders often use a forward seat by leaning forward, just as someone would in a jump saddle - only lower. Gen Chamberlin's point involved getting one's center of gravity over the stirrups, and forward.
> 
> That is entirely possible in a western saddle, as is riding with most of the weight in your thighs and not in your rump.
> 
> Although Jane Savoie did this illustration for English saddles, all the positions work in western saddles as well. Where I differ from her is my belief that the first THREE positions are valid - the third being a good defensive position, particularly if you drop the stirrup a little more and straighten the back up:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Just as you can post in a western saddle (and a great many consider it normal), and do not have to sit the trot, one can also follow Gen Chamberlin's ideas - western, English or Australian. But a western saddle type which tends to hang the stirrups further forward, and that is shaped to support more weight in the thighs than rump, makes it easier to use a forward seat - which Hoofpic seems to want.
> 
> I like three of the four positions Jane Savoie showed, depending on circumstances. If I could only use one, it would be the forward seat - but I'm glad I'm not limited. And there are illustrations from the 1800s showing western riders using a forward seat. Caprilli wasn't the first by any means (Rembrandt, 1655):


I am not really sure what your point was with this post, bsms, but looking at your picture riding, is not what hoofpic needs to emulate. Your little tushie is doing the hokey pokey. And that is also my tendency if I don't work hard at not having my tail feather shaking down the trail! I don't need any shaking tail feather..........lololol

It also just got of the trail after fifteen miles and into my second glass of a wonderful wine (50th Anniversay of a Robert Mondavi wine!) so maybe I just missed the point because the wine is smoooooooth as a tail feather......lololololol


----------



## Hoofpic

updownrider said:


> Agree. Even when I said something nice to Hoofpic I was ignored.


What? I'm sorry that you feel that way but I'm not ignoring anyone. People think that just because I dont follow every single that is said on here that I am ignoring you.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> The problem is, you want a saddle right NOW and don't want to do the leg work to really look. It appears you are trying to talk yourself into it. You have about 4 opinions here that are urging you to get the saddle, and many, many more who are cautioning you about it. It is almost as if you just want to find someone to agree with you rather than really considering the majority of opinions.Your choice. It will be interesting to hear how you feel about this saddle after riding it for 6 months.


Ummm no, it's that I found a saddle and I'm very happy with it.


----------



## tinyliny

even if you buy the saddle, and ultimately it doesn't work, it's not the end of the world. you can resell it, if it's a good quality with a good name, and Billy Cook is pretty good .

I feel that it is not doing you any favors in learning how to ride in balance. You say you just need to get stronger, but if a saddle takes a whole lot of physical effort to mainain a good position, then you are fighting something, and it's not a matter of being weak, it's a matter of bad balance/fit. a well fit, well balanced saddle makes a good position sooooo much easier. you just kind of 'fall' into it, rahter than fighting to stay there.


at some time in the future, you might really like to try a Wintec All Purpose. I just bet you'd love it. the seat is sticky , so you shouldn't feel overly insecure. they aren't that expensive that you can't buy one of them AND a western saddle. as long as they fit, your horse does not know or care what style of saddle he carries.


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic, from your pictures you certainly are not 40 lbs underweight! You're about the same height as my hubby, he weighs 10 pounds less than you do, and he's also muscular which would weight more than fat. Hubby rides a 16 inch seat and has for almost 6 decades----my 15 inch seat Hereford does not work for him if he's trying to ride at more than a walk.


For somone at my height, I should be 200lbs.



> What bsms posted on standing in the stirrups, etc. applies to an English saddle, specifically for a hand gallop or a full gallop when you get your butt out of the seat. However, a Western saddle is ridden differently than an English, so you sit the hand gallop and full gallop----even barrel racers don't really take a forward seat like you would in an English saddle.
> 
> 
> Hoofpic may attempt to post, but he's still double bouncing rather than correctly moving with the horse's trot, and even after many lessons still doesn't know diagonals. In other words, he's not posting and is just moving going up and down in an attempt to appear to post. He lacks balance which is needed to post correctly and I suspect some of his balance issue is riding in a too small seat. This is why I also question his trainer's abilities since normally, the sitting trot is taught first so the rider gets a feel for the 2 beat and learns to balance with the movement plus posting is not "normal" in Western and is an English movement for the most part (which doesn't mean if I'm riding a w/t/c horse, and we're doing a ground covering trot, I not going to post, because I do post that bone shattering gait!)
> 
> 
> Now I'm out of here.....he doesn't seem to really want any help from those of us who've been riding and competing successfully for decades.


I know diagonals, I'm just not able to read them yet. I can do them though no problem.

My trainer did teach me the sitting trot at first and I feel that I have it down right now. Once I get my core stronger it will be better. Right now I focus on tightening and using my core when I do the sitting trot. I always focus on using my core when riding all the time.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> even if you buy the saddle, and ultimately it doesn't work, it's not the end of the world. you can resell it, if it's a good quality with a good name, and Billy Cook is pretty good .
> 
> I feel that it is not doing you any favors in learning how to ride in balance. You say you just need to get stronger, but if a saddle takes a whole lot of physical effort to mainain a good position, then you are fighting something, and it's not a matter of being weak, it's a matter of bad balance/fit. a well fit, well balanced saddle makes a good position sooooo much easier. you just kind of 'fall' into it, rahter than fighting to stay there.
> 
> 
> at some time in the future, you might really like to try a Wintec All Purpose. I just bet you'd love it. the seat is sticky , so you shouldn't feel overly insecure. they aren't that expensive that you can't buy one of them AND a western saddle. as long as they fit, your horse does not know or care what style of saddle he carries.


Thanks, but I'm not fighting with this new saddle. I'm finding that I am very much enjoying the deeper seat and I am not accidentally lunging forward nearly as much due to me being able to lean back more.

I am getting more comfortable each time using it. I adjusted my fenders today so they are no longer rubbing against the inside of my knees and I'm confident that I have my stirrups at the right and best length. With my foot out of the stirrup, the bottom of the stirrup is on level with my ankle bone.

If anything I find it much more comfortable just sitting in this saddle or riding at a walk due to a whole lot less bulk over the old one. I don't have near as much stuff in the way rubbing against my leg. Everything just feels great. I don't have stuff jabbing into my leg or ankle like I would from time to time on the old saddle.


----------



## bsms

sarahfromsc said:


> I am not really sure what your point was with this post, bsms, but looking at your picture riding, is not what hoofpic needs to emulate. Your little tushie is doing the hokey pokey...


My butt isn't quite touching the saddle, which was what I wanted - butt out of saddle. But if you don't understand that, I guess you did fail to understand my point. 

Nor have I told Hoofpic to follow my example. Unlike others, I haven't tried to pick out a saddle for him, tell him what size he needs or tell him to learn "proper riding". I've pointed out some things I've picked up along the way for his consideration - including modifying the teachings of Chamberlin and Littauer for use in a western saddle. 

There is nothing odd about posting in a western saddle. A survey taken years ago on HF showed some strong regional differences. As a ROT - rule of thumb - western riders who needed to go somewhere to work posted. Like the ex-cowboy who first taught me posting said, if you want to get somewhere with a horse who has some work left in him, trot - and post. I rarely post. We don't have a lot of places where a horse can trot for miles without destroying his bare feet, so I tend to prefer a deep two point instead. Or to sit, sometimes. With my center of gravity above my forward stirrups, or slightly behind.

But if Hoofpic ends up riding very differently from me - and he is happy and Fly is happy - I'll be happy too! This is Hoofpic's journey with Fly, not mine.


----------



## sarahfromsc

bsms said:


> My butt isn't quite touching the saddle, which was what I wanted - butt out of saddle. But if you don't understand that, I guess you did fail to understand my point.
> 
> Nor have I told Hoofpic to follow my example. Unlike others, I haven't tried to pick out a saddle for him, tell him what size he needs or tell him to learn "proper riding". I've pointed out some things I've picked up along the way for his consideration - including modifying the teachings of Chamberlin and Littauer for use in a western saddle.
> 
> There is nothing odd about posting in a western saddle. A survey taken years ago on HF showed some strong regional differences. As a ROT - rule of thumb - western riders who needed to go somewhere to work posted. Like the ex-cowboy who first taught me posting said, if you want to get somewhere with a horse who has some work left in him, trot - and post. I rarely post. We don't have a lot of places where a horse can trot for miles without destroying his bare feet, so I tend to prefer a deep two point instead. Or to sit, sometimes. With my center of gravity above my forward stirrups, or slightly behind.
> 
> But if Hoofpic ends up riding very differently from me - and he is happy and Fly is happy - I'll be happy too! This is Hoofpic's journey with Fly, not mine.


Oh shoot. Don't go ruining my wine buzz. I didn't say your little tushie was in or out of the saddle. It is sticking out backward like the hokey pokey....you put your tushie in, you poke your tushie out and shake it all about....remember that song?

I posted 15 miles today in a western saddle. Grew up in Texas posting in a western saddle. Good, real Cowboys post when checking fence line.....miles and miles of fence line. I know posting. One can post without doing the hoeky pokey!

Where is that Robert Mondavi? Oh and try the Rober Hall 2012 cab....to die for. Had that last night. You like a good wine bsms? True both!


----------



## bsms

I can't imagine posting for 15 miles. The local area is in some ways a great place to practice riding, with lots of small ups and downs, and lot of rough country to pick one's way through - but I'd need to shoe my horses to go any real distance. I'd like to move east of here, or north to Utah, and find a place without so many rocks. If I can get Bandit better about human neighborhoods, then about 3 miles north of me is land where we could go for miles on decent ground. That may need to be a goal for next summer's riding.


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## sarahfromsc

Ride in the big south fork. Rocks everywhere! I am lucky to have a horse that can crush rocks barefoot. The views are amazing, the rock outcropping so incredible, old caves to be explored......15 miles is nothing!


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## greentree

Fly is short striding on her left hind leg. That s why your are having trouble posting on that diagonal, and why she keeps counterbendind and falling in on the cxamera end of the arena.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Fly is short striding on her left hind leg. That s why your are having trouble posting on that diagonal, and why she keeps counterbendind and falling in on the cxamera end of the arena.


I'm confused. i need an alternate way to learn how to read diagonals.


----------



## paintedpastures




----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> I'm confused. i need an alternate way to learn how to read diagonals.


Short striding isn't about diagonals, the video looks like she is sore.


----------



## tinyliny

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, but I'm not fighting with this new saddle. I'm finding that I am very much enjoying the deeper seat and I am not accidentally lunging forward nearly as much due to me being able to lean back more.
> 
> I am getting more comfortable each time using it. I adjusted my fenders today so they are no longer rubbing against the inside of my knees and I'm confident that I have my stirrups at the right and best length. With my foot out of the stirrup, the bottom of the stirrup is on level with my ankle bone.
> 
> If anything I find it much more comfortable just sitting in this saddle or riding at a walk due to a whole lot less bulk over the old one. I don't have near as much stuff in the way rubbing against my leg. Everything just feels great. I don't have stuff jabbing into my leg or ankle like I would from time to time on the old saddle.



then why in heavens are you asking for alternate opinions? you know you like it, so buy it, use it. only you know how it feels, and that is the best judge. I think it's great that you like the feel of it. it's time you just say, thanks everyone, but I like it and am buying it. nuff said.


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## tinyliny

@;


sarahfromsc said:


> Ride in the big south fork. Rocks everywhere! I am lucky to have a horse that can crush rocks barefoot. The views are amazing, the rock outcropping so incredible, old caves to be explored......15 miles is nothing!



your avatar listing says 'SW PA" . . . South West Pennsylvania? is that the area you are tlaking about? becuase the photo in the avatar looks more like out West.


----------



## sarahfromsc

tinyliny said:


> @;
> 
> 
> 
> your avatar listing says 'SW PA" . . . South West Pennsylvania? is that the area you are tlaking about? becuase the photo in the avatar looks more like out West.


I just moved from PA to TN back in August. The picture was taking around 10 Sleep WY last year when moving cattle from winter pastures to summer.


----------



## Rain Shadow

tinyliny said:


> your avatar listing says 'SW PA" . . . South West Pennsylvania? is that the area you are tlaking about? becuase the photo in the avatar looks more like out West.



I do believe some people move or travel with their ponies. I've got some pics of me riding Ty up in Mass even though we now live in Florida if you wish to question those.


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## Skyseternalangel

I'm adding my two cents, none of the photos of saddles in this thread fit the horses they are on.

You can see it in the still photo that the saddle is lifting in the back and putting a lot of pressure on the front/shoulders of the horse. The feeling of a deep seat is literally because the saddle has a deep seat.... but it is not level.

If bars don't follow the contour of your horse it will create so many problems for your horses.

If saddle isn't level on your horse it will create problems for you both.

Also... horses change shape often. So what works now may not work in the future so buying a new saddle is very risky.


----------



## tinyliny

Rain Shadow said:


> I do believe some people move or travel with their ponies. I've got some pics of me riding Ty up in Mass even though we now live in Florida if you wish to question those.


I know folks get around. I envy that. 


hmm ? I was just plain curious. that's all. you heard more than I meant.


----------



## gottatrot

Hoofpic, for me the easiest way to learn diagonals was to watch the outside shoulder and go up in the air as it was going forward. So you're basically moving forward and up with that shoulder. 

It can be entertaining after you do this for awhile to look straight and guess which diagonal you're on, then glance down to see if you're right. Soon you can feel the difference when your horse's weight is going down on each front leg so you can tell "the inside one is down, now I am up in the air, that's correct." It's sort of like the horse's weight puts more force into your inside stirrup. 
If you can't feel it at first, do smaller circles and the feeling is more pronounced.

On a different topic, I believe the speed and core balance of the horse determines the amount of lean of the rider's pelvis that is correct. If I am posting on a stock horse that is jogging, my pelvis might be straight up and down because I am moving in balance with the horse's core balance point and momentum. 








If I am doing an extended trot on a huge moving fast horse, my lean might be quite forward to keep in balance with the thrust and momentum so I am staying with the horse's motion.


----------



## tinyliny

funny, but that is true, and yet I've never even thought about that.


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## PoptartShop

Diagonals are pretty simple- you rise when the outside leg goes forward. If you're on the wrong diagonal, sit for a sec then fix it. Easy-peasy!


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I'm confused. i need an alternate way to learn how to read diagonals.


Google.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Short striding isn't about diagonals, the video looks like she is sore.


I see, but when my massage lady was out, said she wasn't sore in the back end.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> I see, but when my massage lady was out, said she wasn't sore in the back end.


I don't remember her being a vet though?


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> If he was 'jammed' into the saddle he wouldn't be able to post - which he can.
> Hoofpics riding problems don't come from the saddle size he's using
> He could probably find a more suitable saddle - but it needn't essentially be bigger, just a different design. I can totally understand why he's taking weight into consideration and unless he has some great desire to ride western from that persepective he likely would be better looking at endurance saddles or English AP saddles
> Again - If the 16 inch western compares to an 18 inch English no way would I put an 18 inch English saddle on that mare, an 18 inch English saddle is geared towards a 16 hand plus horse
> The thing about a certain saddle size or saddle being suited to a teenage girl of woman is pure stereotyping and not a professional approach to saddle fitting at all. Based on that philosophy you'd put a 252 pound female in a 15 inch saddle and a skinny 140 pound male in a 16 inch plus which is nonsense
> This is a better guide as it doesn't bring gender into the equation but even then you've got to take into account what 'average means' because its the size of whats sitting on the saddle that matters - in actual fact the average size male has a smaller butt than the average size female because women are wider and larger in the pelvic area which makes further nonsense of that sterotyping


Thanks, and I consider myself to be an average adult maybe even less seeing how skinny I am. 

I will say though that if I ever ride in breaches, that will give a trust testament as to how much space I have in the saddle. Jeans IMO are a bit misleading because jeans are so thick. No I do not have any interest buying breaches, but if I find thinner pants to ride in, I will show you just how much space I have in my seat.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I don't remember her being a vet though?


No she is not a vet. We did talk a bit on how Fly works and uses her muscles when being ridden. She said that she is mostly using her front end and needs to learn to engage her hind end more which will come over time.


----------



## PoptartShop

I don't think changing pants will help with the appearance of the saddle being too small- but to each their own! Breeches or jeans...won't really change it! But whatever works for you.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember her being a vet though?
> 
> 
> 
> No she is not a vet. We did talk a bit on how Fly works and uses her muscles when being ridden. She said that she is mostly using her front end and needs to learn to engage her hind end more which will come over time.
Click to expand...

Most horses use their front end that's not related currently to your horse short striding which needs to be looked at by a QUALIFIED HORSE VET not a massage therapist.


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> I'm adding my two cents, none of the photos of saddles in this thread fit the horses they are on.
> 
> You can see it in the still photo that the saddle is lifting in the back and putting a lot of pressure on the front/shoulders of the horse. The feeling of a deep seat is literally because the saddle has a deep seat.... but it is not level.
> 
> If bars don't follow the contour of your horse it will create so many problems for your horses.
> 
> If saddle isn't level on your horse it will create problems for you both.
> 
> Also... horses change shape often. So what works now may not work in the future so buying a new saddle is very risky.


WHen I have weight on this saddle, the back of the seat doesn't lift. I've gotten second and third opinions on the fit (from fitters) on this saddle and the saddle is leveled when it's on Fly. They said that I shouldn't need shims and to do without them for now. They also said that I won't need a new pad. 

I know that horses shape will always change, but the old saddle fit Fly MUCH MUCH worse and I didn't want to use it on her ever again, so continuing with that saddle wasn't even in consideration for me. And I don't want to shim that saddle just to fit her, if a saddle fits, you shouldn't need to shim it.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Most horses use their front end that's not related currently to your horse short striding which needs to be looked at by a QUALIFIED HORSE VET not a massage therapist.


Okay thanks, I will talk to my BO and get one of his vets out ASAP. I haven't had a vet out for Fly yet at the new barn, but when I moved here I told him that I trust his recommendation on who to use. He generally uses the same vet place for all the horses, and he has his preferences for which vets that he likes the most.

But if she is short striding, then it's not forsure a result from my riding right? I know lameness can be from anything. It can be from her and her mates playing in the field and her getting bumped or kicked.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Okay thanks, I will talk to my BO and get one of his vets out ASAP. I haven't had a vet out for Fly yet at the new barn, but when I moved here I told him that I trust his recommendation on who to use. He generally uses the same vet place for all the horses, and he has his preferences for which vets that he likes the most.
> 
> But if she is short striding, then it's not forsure a result from my riding right? I know lameness can be from anything. It can be from her and her mates playing in the field and her getting bumped or kicked.



Could be from your riding and/or the new saddle.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Diagonals are pretty simple- you rise when the outside leg goes forward. If you're on the wrong diagonal, sit for a sec then fix it. Easy-peasy!


Thanks. Yes this is what I've been taught as well, but I have trouble being able to see which of her legs is forward. I look down fine, I just can't distinguish yet. I can do it with her at a walk but not trot. Using mirrors does kinda help but because our arena is so dark, it limits it's helpfullness. A member on here suggested to put a piece of red tape on the outside of one shoulder so that it stands out more so I am going to try this.


----------



## greentree

Could you please explain the walk diagonal??


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Bridle lameness can be from riding, she could have stifle issues, she could be out, she could have an abcess, not a horse whisperer so have no clue will just have to see what the vet says.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Fly is short striding on her left hind leg. That s why your are having trouble posting on that diagonal, and why she keeps counterbendind and falling in on the cxamera end of the arena.


Thank you, this is exactly what I'm going to mention to the vet.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Could you please explain the walk diagonal??


There's no such thing, but I was just giving an example as to what my eyes were able to track. Her front legs moving at a walk, I have no problems picking out stuff, like when the outside leg is forward, I can pinpoint it. But at a trot, I can't because her legs are moving too fast for my eyes.

I hope to overcome this.


----------



## PoptartShop

You just glance down, if you're still learning how to post you can look down for a longer time obviously. 
You'll see the outside leg move, and that's when you rise. When that front leg goes forward.


----------



## sarahfromsc

How about feeling her stride versus watching it?


----------



## greentree

Try feeling YOUR legs....


----------



## sarahfromsc

And hips


----------



## Hoofpic

paintedpastures said:


> Complete Western Saddle Fitting for Horse and Rider - Big Dee's Tack & Jeff Duncan Cactus Saddlery - YouTube


Thank you. I just watched it twice. 15min mark really stands out when he mentions the stirrup pressdown test. I tried this exact same test on the new saddle on Fly and it did as he suggested "the saddle went straight down", it didn't twist at all. This was with the saddle on Fly, no pad, not done up, but I didn't use a bedsheet under. I'm not sure how much the bedsheet under the saddle matters but I will bring one to the barn today and do the test again.


----------



## greentree

The sheet is only to protect the saddle from dirt, and iteasily attracts dirt to see the pressure points!


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. Yes this is what I've been taught as well, but I have trouble being able to see which of her legs is forward. I look down fine, I just can't distinguish yet. I can do it with her at a walk but not trot. Using mirrors does kinda help but because our arena is so dark, it limits it's helpfullness. A member on here suggested to put a piece of red tape on the outside of one shoulder so that it stands out more so I am going to try this.


 
Isn't this being addressed during your lessons? Coaching and correction on the spot is a lot better for you than trying to understand written explanations. Maybe you need to buy less equipment and spend more money on more lessons per week.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> You just glance down, if you're still learning how to post you can look down for a longer time obviously.
> You'll see the outside leg move, and that's when you rise. When that front leg goes forward.


Thanks. I've become really comfortable with posting, I just need to look down more often and see when the outside is forward.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> How about feeling her stride versus watching it?


This is what I did from the start because it's what my trainer told me to do. Again, I can feel her stride a lot easier when at a walk than trot. At least right now.


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## jaydee

When I said that hoofpic was able to post I wasn't commenting on how well he was doing it I was referring to the fact that he can get up out of the saddle so he can't be 'jammed fast into it
His problems posting are nothing at all to do with the saddle size. 
I wouldn't even be getting him into stuff like changing diagonals yet (and I'm a BHS qualified instructor) because he needs to learn to get a good correct posting rhythm first. He isn't working the mare at any level or hard enough for it to be a deal yet, in fact its more of a hindrance than a help. However if his trainer wants to do that then he's paying that person so needs to listen to them and not me.
As for the saddle being worryingly too small - in this comparative pic (Hoofpic is on the right) taking into account that he's leaning forwards and appears to have looser fitting jeans than the other rider I can't see a whole lot of difference in the gap between the riders and the back and the front of the saddles.


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## jenkat86

This is the last post I'm going to make regarding saddle fit.









I'll just let the pictures do most of the talking.

But one thing to notice, these two riders are carrying their weight VERY differently, and the saddles in the pictures are dispersing that pressure very differently as well. 

The back of Hoofpic's saddle looks to have a lot of pressure on it.


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## Hoofpic

Very informational.


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## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> This is the last post I'm going to make regarding saddle fit.
> 
> View attachment 842906
> 
> 
> I'll just let the pictures do most of the talking.
> 
> But one thing to notice, these two riders are carrying their weight VERY differently, and the saddles in the pictures are dispersing that pressure very differently as well.
> 
> The back of Hoofpic's saddle looks to have a lot of pressure on it.


There's not a lot of pressure on the back, if much at all. I did another check yesterday. When I sit on her, the very back of the saddle is comfortably sitting along the pad and not jammed into it.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> There's not a lot of pressure on the back, if much at all. I did another check yesterday. When I sit on her, the very back of the saddle is comfortably sitting along the pad and not jammed into it.


Just because when you sit on her it doesn't have an pressure doesn't mean when you ride it doesn't, unless you have your hand between the saddle and her back when you ride.


----------



## StephaniHren

Whinnie said:


> Maybe you need to buy less equipment and spend more money on more lessons per week.


I agree with this (especially since @Hoofpic seems to always be buying some new expensive product). I found that I really started actively learning when I was taking at least two lessons a week and had at least one day on my own to practice what I learned. Can you learn from one lesson a week? Sure, but it will be abysmally slow, especially if you're not practicing on top of that.


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## Hoofpic

Love this video.


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## Whinnie

Also, when you have only one lesson a week and ride in between, if you are doing something wrong you will have to spend the next lesson un-doing your bad habit. No, I am NOT saying to not ride between lessons. I am saying, take mores lessons per week to develop a good foundation, and when you need very little correcting and can practice on your own without falling into bad habits you can scale back the lessons. Money well spent. 


How do you practice when on your own? What do you do by way of equitation practice?


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I agree with this (especially since @Hoofpic seems to always be buying some new expensive product). I found that I really started actively learning when I was taking at least two lessons a week and had at least one day on my own to practice what I learned. Can you learn from one lesson a week? Sure, but it will be abysmally slow, especially if you're not practicing on top of that.


I used to have 3 lessons a week but as I got better I dropped it to two and it was just a couple months ago where I dropped it to one.

I learn better with less lessons, then time on my own to practice what I learned on my own in my own time. THis was the same for when I had my outside trainer out. I had her out twice a week and even then, time goes by so fast that often you don't realize how short of time in between lessons you have to practice what you learned. So we eventually dropped our lessons to once a week and I felt better.


----------



## jaydee

jenkat86 said:


> This is the last post I'm going to make regarding saddle fit.
> 
> View attachment 842906
> 
> 
> I'll just let the pictures do most of the talking.
> 
> But one thing to notice, these two riders are carrying their weight VERY differently, and the saddles in the pictures are dispersing that pressure very differently as well.
> 
> The back of Hoofpic's saddle looks to have a lot of pressure on it.


 Essentially then - if hoofpic was to sit up in a better position he would be sitting in exactly the same place on his saddle as the guy is on the other pic. Therefore its NOT the saddle that's the problem its hoofpics 'seat' though even with his 'slouching" (and I'm sure everyone is guilty of doing that occasionally) he's putting no more weight on the back of it than the other guy is especially as when you sit like that (leaning forwards) you put more weight on your thigh area than on the base of your spine - It's rather like going into a light seat and then a half seat as a start to learning 2 Point - you're actually reducing pressure on the horse's back and not increasing it
Now I'm not saying that he doesn't need to improve his posture because he does - but changing to a bigger saddle isn't key to that in his case
I think maybe some of you need to stop worrying about what hoofpic spends his money on.


----------



## bsms

Two photos of guys' butts:








​ 







​ 
I bought a sheepskin cover to shrink the size of the saddle in the lower picture, and wish I had bought it in roughout leather and one inch smaller.

FWIW, this is me in our 15" Abetta. I like the seat, but dislike where the stirrups are hung:








​ 
I am NOT telling Hoofpic what size saddle to use. Maybe he'd prefer bigger, long term. Or maybe as he rides more, he'll lower his stirrups and use a more vertical leg. And maybe, just maybe, he'll stay content with it as it is.

There is a lot of individual taste that goes into saddles. My leather saddle is an A-fork (slick fork), which affects its fit. The smaller Abetta, however, has normal swells and feels good to me - seat size. If Abetta hung the stirrups further forward, I'd sell my leather saddle and use it. As it is, I've added sheepskin to shrink my saddle seat down. And that would be one advantage to using a larger seat - they shrink easier than they expand!








​


----------



## Hoofpic

Since today was the last day for me to trial this saddle, I took some more pics and videos and threw the old saddle back on to compare. 

Now i see on the old saddle how the gullet is too wide and it sinks down on Fly. I immediately saw it when ai put it back on Fly.


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## Hoofpic

I was playing around some more and wondering if I should have her saddle this far back. I just want to make sure that it's behind her scapula. I was watching one video where the lady was saying how you should have the leg that's facing you one step forward so that you can be sure to have it behind the scapula since when a horse steps forward, their shoulders extends back.










I took some pics today and remember these jeans are bootleg so they are loose fit.


----------



## bsms

If it were me, I'd go with a little larger seat. But that fits you about how our Abetta fits me, and I like our Abetta (other than the stirrups being too far back).

A couple of things you can do about placement. One is to feel how her shoulder affects things by sliding your hand under and walking her. The other is to leave the cinch hanging loose, then have her do some figure 8s. If her shoulders need more room, that usually will push the saddle back far enough.

If in doubt, I like mine a little further back than most people say - but Bandit has a pretty level back, and I can get away with a lot when riding him.

The Nikkels say it doesn't matter as much as people think because the shoulder isn't supporting weight when it is back (and the leg is forward). I'm not so sure, but they certainly are vastly more qualified to speculate than I am!

"The difference between pulling the leg forward (and usually lifting on it at the same time) and what the horse does naturally can be found just by walking beside a horse and feeling where the shoulder blade goes. That's what we did here: How does the horse's shoulder blade move? You would probably have to ride bareback at a trot and a canter feeling the shoulder blade as you ride to find where the shoulder moved in those gaits, but we haven't done that (yet)."

Rethinking saddle fit and shoulder blade movement

You're saddling your horse wrong...

BTW - I like this comment on their blog:

*"The gun fight at the O.K. corral was actually started by two saddlemakers sitting around a bottle of whiskey talking about saddle fitting !*"

:winetime:​


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## paintedpastures

How many more pages of saddle fit do we need? Info & opinions have been presented to hoofpic. Seems like he has made up his mind about saddle:| how about trying to move on witha new topic & with the riding....?:icon_rolleyes:


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I learn better with less lessons, then time on my own to practice what I learned on my own in my own time. ... time goes by so fast that often you don't realize how short of time in between lessons you have to practice what you learned.


I mean, to each their own, but I've never had problems practicing between two or three lessons a week? :|:|:|:|:|
You take a lesson, practice the next day or the day after that (or both), then you take another lesson (which may be on the same thing you were working on, or might be on something else entirely). I get needing some time for a lesson to sink in, but does it really take a whole week for you to process what you learned and apply it? Also, it's not all about learning, it's also about having your instructor there to correct your equitation and provide feedback on your riding. You improve much quicker with someone there to remind you to put your shoulders back or keep your chin up or push your leg back, etc.



Hoofpic said:


>


Okay, I agree with @*paintedpastures* and think we've talked saddle fit to death and should move on, but also: isn't this saddle super not level? It looks like it's pitched way forward, which would probably make @*Hoofpic* pitch way forward (and then over-lean back to compensate) and then put more pressure on the shoulder/withers (great source that explains what I'm saying). Shouldn't he have some sort of front bump up pad on her to level out the seat of the saddle so that he's not compensating for her downhill build by leaning awkwardly?


----------



## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> If it were me, I'd go with a little larger seat. But that fits you about how our Abetta fits me, and I like our Abetta (other than the stirrups being too far back).


I like the 15" over the 16". It just feels better.



> A couple of things you can do about placement. One is to feel how her shoulder affects things by sliding your hand under and walking her. The other is to leave the cinch hanging loose, then have her do some figure 8s. If her shoulders need more room, that usually will push the saddle back far enough.


Thanks. I did this the other day and the saddle stayed on. Also, I did the pulldown test where you put weight into the stirrup with the cinch undone. I must have put 30lbs of weight into it and the saddle stayed on her back like glue.



> "The difference between pulling the leg forward (and usually lifting on it at the same time) and what the horse does naturally can be found just by walking beside a horse and feeling where the shoulder blade goes. That's what we did here: How does the horse's shoulder blade move? You would probably have to ride bareback at a trot and a canter feeling the shoulder blade as you ride to find where the shoulder moved in those gaits, but we haven't done that (yet)."
> 
> Rethinking saddle fit and shoulder blade movement
> 
> You're saddling your horse wrong...
> 
> BTW - I like this comment on their blog:
> 
> *"The gun fight at the O.K. corral was actually started by two saddlemakers sitting around a bottle of whiskey talking about saddle fitting !*"
> 
> :winetime:​


good point, thanks. Walk her and feel her shoulder blade move is much easier than not walking.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I mean, to each their own, but I've never had problems practicing between two or three lessons a week? :|:|:|:|:|
> You take a lesson, practice the next day or the day after that (or both), then you take another lesson (which may be on the same thing you were working on, or might be on something else entirely). I get needing some time for a lesson to sink in, but does it really take a whole week for you to process what you learned and apply it? Also, it's not all about learning, it's also about having your instructor there to correct your equitation and provide feedback on your riding. You improve much quicker with someone there to remind you to put your shoulders back or keep your chin up or push your leg back, etc.
> 
> 
> Okay, I agree with @*paintedpastures* and think we've talked saddle fit to death and should move on, but also: isn't this saddle super not level? It looks like it's pitched way forward, which would probably make @*Hoofpic* pitch way forward (and then over-lean back to compensate) and then put more pressure on the shoulder/withers (great source that explains what I'm saying). Shouldn't he have some sort of front bump up pad on her to level out the seat of the saddle so that he's not compensating for her downhill build by leaning awkwardly?


Well I usually don't have her saddle that far back, I was just experimenting and posted a pic. I usually have it a bit more forward than that and of course then it doesn't lean forward nearly as much, it's leveled but I just want to be completely sure it's behind the scapula even with Fly moving her shoulder.

I do still have those stand alone shims that I bought last week. I am going to try it out tomorrow. I am just trying to decide where to put it that's all. These are shims that start razor thin at one side then at it's thickest point at the other side. I probably could put these just behind the concho so that the shim's thickest side ends just behind the concho.


----------



## gottatrot

You don't need shims because the saddle fits, but it won't fit if you don't put it in the right place.








Placing the saddle too far back as in this photo makes it no longer balanced. I put a red dot where your horse's scapula most likely is. If you lift your horse's leg up in this position...








This is the position where your horse's scapula comes back the farthest. If you put your hand up on the shoulder as you lift the leg, you can feel how far back it goes. That is usually only an inch or so behind the usual position. I put an X on the photo where the scapula probably comes back to in the highest position.

However, the blue dot on the photo is the place on the saddle that should at least mostly clear the shoulder. The shoulder does not need to clear the front of the saddle leather (saddles are not designed this way) but only the front of the saddle tree itself. If you set the saddle so the blue dot is just behind the farthest back point of the scapula, you will see that the saddle will be in the right place about two inches or so farther forward. 

You can also see how setting the saddle forward in the correct spot will line up the cinch so it fits in the girth groove appropriately. I put a black line where the front edge of the cinch should approximately go.

@StephaniHren, you are lucky to have so much time to ride. I'd love to ride every day, but between working full time and all the other stupid essential stuff in life like refilling the refrigerator I only get in about three days a week. :smile:


----------



## StephaniHren

gottatrot said:


> @*StephaniHren* , you are lucky to have so much time to ride. I'd love to ride every day, but between working full time and all the other stupid essential stuff in life like refilling the refrigerator I only get in about three days a week. :smile:


Oh, I definitely am lucky! I'm on a gap year from adulthood, if you catch my drift, and my parents have been really supportive about the whole equestrian endeavor. I work part time to make enough for board/farrier/lessons/etc., my cell phone bill, and my car payment, but I'm very lucky to not have to pay for rent or other bills. I'm coming off of a few years in a full time IT position (and a break up with a long term, live-in boyfriend/fiance), and having the opportunity to spend so much time with horses has really been helping me sort out what I want out of life, so I'm very thankful for it.

I didn't mean it to sound like everyone should be able to get out and ride that often, so I really hope that didn't come off as offensive or in some way assumptive. If it sounded like Hoofpic had trouble with a full schedule I wouldn't be so dubious about his lack of lessons, but it sounds like he has a flexible work schedule and a lot of opportunities to head out to the barn and get some practice time in.


----------



## StephaniHren

@Hoofpic did you do the thing where you put the saddle on Fly's back and slide it backwards until it hits a natural stopping point?


----------



## Hoofpic

Wow, I've been following this rescue story but i didn't realize she looks this good, so soon again. It was just 3 months ago, this mare was fighting for her life. She was 800lbs when she got brought into care, 800lbs!


----------



## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> You don't need shims because the saddle fits, but it won't fit if you don't put it in the right place.


Okay thanks. The only reason why I felt she might need shims is because there is a bit of pressure at the concho, not a lot but still some. I can still slip my fingers through the front of the saddle and to the concho though from both sides. And I can do it even more with a pad under it and cinched up.[/QUOTE]



> Placing the saddle too far back as in this photo makes it no longer balanced. I put a red dot where your horse's scapula most likely is. If you lift your horse's leg up in this position...


So basically pick up your horses leg and hold it in the position as if you were picking their feet (judging by that pic).



> This is the position where your horse's scapula comes back the farthest. If you put your hand up on the shoulder as you lift the leg, you can feel how far back it goes. That is usually only an inch or so behind the usual position. I put an X on the photo where the scapula probably comes back to in the highest position.
> 
> However, the blue dot on the photo is the place on the saddle that should at least mostly clear the shoulder. The shoulder does not need to clear the front of the saddle leather (saddles are not designed this way) but only the front of the saddle tree itself. If you set the saddle so the blue dot is just behind the farthest back point of the scapula, you will see that the saddle will be in the right place about two inches or so farther forward.


Thanks, so basically how I had it the other day was the perfect spot. I had a feeling it was, it's just that after I spent 2 hours today watching saddle fit videos on youtube, I just wanted to make sure that I was clearing the shoulder. You are right though, you don't need to clear the very front of the saddle with the shoulder, just where the tree meets inside the saddle.

I spent some time today massaging the inner lining of the saddle with my fingers to feel exactly where all egdes of the tree were. Surprisingly, it doesn't go right up to the front of the saddle (close but not to the very edge), and it doesn't do all the way to the back of the saddle (here is where the biggest gap was).



> You can also see how setting the saddle forward in the correct spot will line up the cinch so it fits in the girth groove appropriately. I put a black line where the front edge of the cinch should approximately go.


True, good point thanks. I was just being overly paranoid that's all. But now I feel better than I cleared it up.

Are those full size donkeys? I didn't know you had one, I've never seen one in person (we only have mini's at our barn lol).


----------



## tinyliny

does the saddle fit? 

I mean, if a saddle WILL slide as far back as this one:










then even placing it further forward may avail you nothing because it's gonna slide to where the tree fits the back the best. if it seems to fit the back in this position, and you snug it forward, my guess is that it will want to slide back all the time. shimming may reduce that.

but, if people who are THERE, who can feel the whole thing, say it fits, then I'll give them that. judgeing from a photo is always risky.


----------



## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> So basically pick up your horses leg and hold it in the position as if you were picking their feet (judging by that pic)...
> 
> Are those full size donkeys? I didn't know you had one, I've never seen one in person (we only have mini's at our barn lol).


Yes, exactly. And no, don't have any donkeys, that was just a random picture off the internet showing the position of the leg. I thought if I said "picking up the leg" it could be misinterpreted.

It made me laugh slightly about the rescue horse. It's amazing she looks so great, and I'm guessing she's gained 200 lbs or more. But we don't know how tall the horse is, and 800 lbs is what one of my little mares weighs when she is fat. I'm guessing this mare is a much larger horse. :wink:
@StephaniHren, I am just jealous, not meaning to make you feel your comments were off at all. Very jealous, actually.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> does the saddle fit?
> 
> I mean, if a saddle WILL slide as far back as this one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then even placing it further forward may avail you nothing because it's gonna slide to where the tree fits the back the best. if it seems to fit the back in this position, and you snug it forward, my guess is that it will want to slide back all the time. shimming may reduce that.
> 
> but, if people who are THERE, who can feel the whole thing, say it fits, then I'll give them that. judgeing from a photo is always risky.





StephaniHren said:


> @Hoofpic did you do the thing where you put the saddle on Fly's back and slide it backwards until it hits a natural stopping point?




I had to work it back to get the saddle into this position. When I first put the saddle on (I put it on like the pad, a bit more forward), I do as you suggested and work it back by gently wiggling it. It stopped at a point and it was more forward than in this picture. Believe it or not, but once this saddle is on Fly, it stays like glue. I did the stirrup pulldown test, walked her around with just the saddle undone, in circles, the saddle stays in the same spot.

When this saddle is in it's natural sweet spot, if I roll a marble on the seat, it would stop right in the centre of the seat.

This is her sweet spot


----------



## greentree

That mare is sure giving you the evil eye!!!!


----------



## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Yes, exactly. And no, don't have any donkeys, that was just a random picture off the internet showing the position of the leg. I thought if I said "picking up the leg" it could be misinterpreted.
> 
> It made me laugh slightly about the rescue horse. It's amazing she looks so great, and I'm guessing she's gained 200 lbs or more. But we don't know how tall the horse is, and 800 lbs is what one of my little mares weighs when she is fat. I'm guessing this mare is a much larger horse. :wink:
> @StephaniHren, I am just jealous, not meaning to make you feel your comments were off at all. Very jealous, actually.


Here is the sweet spot, (this is where the fitter put it as well), I should be clear of the scapula hopefully. After sticking my finders on the inner wool lining and finding out exactly where the tree is and ends at all points, (marked it in red) is where the tree ends on this saddle. 

Obviously because it has a lot less bulk than ropers, there won't be nearly as much straight excess leather on the very front. On this saddle, there is probably about 1/2" from the very front of the tree bars to the front outside edge of the saddle.

However, the bars don't go all the way down to the d-ring, (which I didn't expect it would since bars are horizontal).










What I have learned about donkeys is that not everyone is a fan. I've met a few horse lovers but they're not too overly crazy about donkeys. I think it's because of that loud sound that they make. Yes I do find it rather irritating too. 


That gray mare sure looks great. It's amazing that they did that in just 3.5 months. I'm guessing they put her on straight alfalfa, grain and maybe some beet pulp.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Here is the sweet spot, (this is where the fitter put it as well), I should be clear of the scapula hopefully.


If that's the sweet spot and you know it's the sweet spot, why are you trying out the saddle farther back? Stop messing with it and just tack up with it in this spot every time you go to saddle her.


----------



## StephaniHren

gottatrot said:


> @*StephaniHren* , I am just jealous, not meaning to make you feel your comments were off at all. Very jealous, actually.


Okay, good! I wanted to make sure I wasn't come off as "that one chick who thinks that just because she's lucky and gets to ride her horse everyday, everyone should be able to do the same no matter what circumstances they're in" (AKA the world's biggest jerk off!).

I just think when you buy a green horse, you're committing to a bit _more_ than you would with other horses.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the sweet spot, (this is where the fitter put it as well), I should be clear of the scapula hopefully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's the sweet spot and you know it's the sweet spot, why are you trying out the saddle farther back? Stop messing with it and just tack up with it in this spot every time you go to saddle her.
Click to expand...

I just wanted to be sure. I spent 2 hours yesterday watching saddle fit videos.


----------



## Hoofpic

I'm wondering if I should have my chiro out. Fly still reacts each time when I do up her cinch. She turms her head with her ears back and I her to quit it and stomp my foot. Today she made a very strong gesture to bite. She didn't get close to me but I still corrected her hard and smacked her hard on the neck.

She will take a bit of something when I do up her cinch. My massage lady said she is a bit tight on her front chest but nothing serious. Just normal mildness and she worked on that area when she was out last week

Usually when a horse acts out likes this, a rib could be out. Something is out. The last time she acted like this, last November (it was on her barrel along the side), she had 3 ribs out.

Her last chiro adjustment was Dec of 2015.


----------



## GMA100

Could it be ulcers?


----------



## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> Could it be ulcers?


I sure hope not, how can I tell?


----------



## GMA100

Nipping when you saddle her up is a sure sign. I'd have a vet out.


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## greentree

By The look on her face just having the saddle on...I say she is trying to buffalo you. 

You need to seriously find out what "having a rib out" means.


----------



## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> Nipping when you saddle her up is a sure sign. I'd have a vet out.


Vet or chiro first, what do you think? I would say vet because there is no gaurentee that she is out somewhere. Then I can ask them about the back left leg short extending.

Now, I technically don't have a vet since arriving to the new barn. I know which vet centre my BO uses, there is just no "specific" vet that he uses. I was going to ask him on who to specifically use but even though he is out on his gator every now and then when it's nice out, he's still recovering and I don't want to bother him. He's just not quite back to his normal self just yet. So do you think it would be fine if i just called this vet centre myself and made the appointment myself?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> By The look on her face just having the saddle on...I say she is trying to buffalo you.
> 
> You need to seriously find out what "having a rib out" means.


Last November, I would brush her sides and she reacted the same way (mind you, she was a lot more soar then), and turned out she had 3 ribs out when I had the chiro out. One adjustment and she was like a different horse.


----------



## Hoofpic

I went for another drive today up where i went trail riding. Not as far, but close. It was +18 today and we are so lucky to be having this weather in November so I am making the most of it before the snow comes.


----------



## greentree

Here you go...some interesting reading....

Why Therapies May Seem to Work (Even When They Don't) - Part 2 - David W. Ramey, DVM


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Here you go...some interesting reading....
> 
> Why Therapies May Seem to Work (Even When They Don't) - Part 2 - David W. Ramey, DVM


Oh, so are you saying not to necessarily jump on getting a vet out? Right now I would choose the vet before the chiro.


----------



## gottatrot

greentree said:


> Here you go...some interesting reading....
> 
> Why Therapies May Seem to Work (Even When They Don't) - Part 2 - David W. Ramey, DVM


I take David Ramey with a big grain of salt. People post his articles a lot and he doesn't think we should give our Cushing's horses medication for their disease or that teeth floating is really necessary. He is a vet that takes doing things "naturally" to an extreme. I don't call the vet out for every false step or scrape, but there are things we do need to treat horses for.

He doesn't think we need supplements or vitamins, even though horses like my mare can have serious physical issues from vitamin E deficiency.


----------



## greentree

Well, I would have someone knowledgable WHO IS THERE , not watching a video, watch her trot .

If any of my horses went around the arena looking that unhappy, I would be seriously questioning saddle fit, checking for lameness issues, or questioning my choice of job for that horse, even if that meant re-homing. 

I am on the Dr. David Ramey side of the spectrum as far as chiro's and massage therapists....nice work if you can get it, I suppose, but not something I spend (what little 
money I have) money on.

I just think Dr. Ramey is informative and entertaining reading.


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

@Hoofpic- Could you post a video of what she does when you saddle her and tighten the cinch? 

This might aid us in giving you advice on whether to get the vet or chiro out. There was another thread on the forum not too long ago where the poster thought her horse had ulcers, but when she posted a video of what was going on for us to see, myself and other posters recommend to her that her horse would benefit from a visit from a good chiro due to the horse's reaction to having the saddle put on.


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

Here's an article on gastric ulcers for you to read: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/local_resources/pdfs/pubs-Oct2012-sec.pdf


----------



## Hoofpic

I was talking with my BO for over an hour today and I brought this up. He said that he would like to see it first and how Fly reacts, when exactly she reacts when I am about to cinch her up as he said he could help me out with some advice before I call out the vet, and I might not even need a vet. He said that this is a very common problem that he has seen on many of his past horses in his life and more often than not, it was from the handler accidentally pulling hairs or pinching them as they do up the latigo and cinch.

He said to make sure that I am not accidentally pulling any of her hairs, especially now with them having their winter coats on, it's extremely easy to do this without even noticing. He told me to try cinching her up with one of my hands behind the cinch buckle so I can be sure that no hairs are getting caught or pulled. He said to try this first and if she still does it, he would like to watch and provide his thoughts based on when Fly is doing it, and any signs leading up to it.

Another person to talk to would be my massage lady. She did mention that Fly is a bit sore on her front chest and it carried over to just under where the girth lays on her belly. It's not serious soreness but just mild. She may or may not have it anymore after that one session and some red light on it. But she would perhaps be able to give me more insight on how she felt that spot to be when she was feeling it out.

As much as I want to think that Fly is just being a brat about it, something tells me she isn't.


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## Rainaisabelle

Just get a vet Lordy. It could be a thousand things get some qualified to look her over considering she's been doing it for awhile


----------



## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> @Hoofpic- Could you post a video of what she does when you saddle her and tighten the cinch?
> 
> This might aid us in giving you advice on whether to get the vet or chiro out. There was another thread on the forum not too long ago where the poster thought her horse had ulcers, but when she posted a video of what was going on for us to see, myself and other posters recommend to her that her horse would benefit from a visit from a good chiro due to the horse's reaction to having the saddle put on.


Sure I can post a video, I am not going out until Tuesday though. Generally how it goes is, I put the saddle on and as soon as I grab the cinch from under her and start feeding the latigo through it, her ears go back. Then once I have the latigo all the way through and I'm ready to tighten the cinch to make it snug (but not tight), she reacts again with her head back and will usually try to bite. She will try to bite something, and it's usually on the wood rail or one of the jolly balls that are hanging.

I never tighten the cinch up when she is still tied because she will let out air anyways and I will have to re-tighten again before mounting anyways. I always just make it snug, enough so the saddle and pad stay in place, but I can still easily feed my hand through the cinch under her.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Just get a vet Lordy. It could be a thousand things get some qualified to look her over considering she's been doing it for awhile


I will be don't worry but my BO does have a point. He gave me a suggestion and he also would like to watch and observe because one thing I have learned from the past is that you shouldn't always just jump to getting a vet out. There are times where you can get help from others or at least try and then go from there.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

So for the last year or so you've been pulling on her hair that's why she's been trying to nip you ?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Well, I would have someone knowledgable WHO IS THERE , not watching a video, watch her trot .
> 
> If any of my horses went around the arena looking that unhappy, I would be seriously questioning saddle fit, checking for lameness issues, or questioning my choice of job for that horse, even if that meant re-homing.
> 
> I am on the Dr. David Ramey side of the spectrum as far as chiro's and massage therapists....nice work if you can get it, I suppose, but not something I spend (what little
> money I have) money on.
> 
> I just think Dr. Ramey is informative and entertaining reading.


What makes you think Fly is unhappy in the arena?


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> So for the last year or so you've been pulling on her hair that's why she's been trying to nip you ?


What? No, this just started like 2 months ago and it wasn't constant but on and off. There may be a time where she would react, I tell her NO or QUIT and the next couple times she won't react or do anything at all when I feed the latigo through. This is why at first I was assuming that she was just being a brat about it.

I know when I brush her in this area or massage it or feel this area with my fingers, she doesn't react at all. My BO asked me this exact same thing today and I told him. I can apply brushes, curry combs, my fingers, hands to this area and she doesn't react at all.


----------



## Hoofpic

Greentree, I am a big fan of equine massage and chiro because Fly has shown that she heals and benefits from both greatly.

She had 2 massage (with red light) when she was lame (though very minor), on her front left leg when I got her and she was back to normal and a completely different horse after the 2nd session. She had her full mobility back. The vet couldn't believe how quickly she healed.

She was sore about a year ago when the trainer was using the lesson saddle on her (when she was riding her and I didn't have a saddle yet for Fly), and Fly got sore along her topline and withers and part of her flank. After just one chiro session, she was back to normal. I had the chiro out anyways a month later as a followup and she still did some stuff but she couldn't believe how well Fly healed from just one session. She didn't really have to do much the second visit out because Fly was back to normal.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> What? No, this just started like 2 months ago and it wasn't constant but on and off. There may be a time where she would react, I tell her NO or QUIT and the next couple times she won't react or do anything at all when I feed the latigo through. This is why at first I was assuming that she was just being a brat about it.
> 
> I know when I brush her in this area or massage it or feel this area with my fingers, she doesn't react at all. My BO asked me this exact same thing today and I told him. I can apply brushes, curry combs, my fingers, hands to this area and she doesn't react at all.


I believe earlier in the year she was nipping. If she is only nipping when saddling and she knows you're going to ride then she's in pain and she has been telling you for awhile. 

Secondly brushes and curry combs won't tell you if a horse is sore I can brush my horse with a curry comb and he constantly reacts but get a qualifed massage therapist etc look for reaction points and get nothing.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> What makes you think Fly is unhappy in the arena?


She looks unhappy. Look at those pictures of her with the saddle on....she looks terribly unhappy there, too. 

I know you believe that the chiro and massage do wonders for your horse...and there is nothing wrong with that. I guess I just have more questions in my head than you.

No matter how much googling I do, I cannot find ANY explanation for "having a rib out", which leads me to believe that there is no scientific explanation.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I believe earlier in the year she was nipping. If she is only nipping when saddling and she knows you're going to ride then she's in pain and she has been telling you for awhile.
> 
> Secondly brushes and curry combs won't tell you if a horse is sore I can brush my horse with a curry comb and he constantly reacts but get a qualifed massage therapist etc look for reaction points and get nothing.


I think what's thrown me off is that sometimes, over the past couple months, she doesn't react at all when doing up her cinch.

My worry is that if I get the vet out, they will just put her on bute (which I am really against), whereas my chiro will actually adjust her where needed.

I know when she was sore last year, she reacted from me just brushing her.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Why are you against bute ?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> She looks unhappy. Look at those pictures of her with the saddle on....she looks terribly unhappy there, too.


That's how she looks a lot of the time, but she doesn't always give those looks with a saddle on. Even if you take pics of her without a saddle on, she will often give those looks, it's just who she is. Do you remember those pics I took of her with just being tied? She had the mare glare there too.

Here is a good example.










Here she is fine though (this was from 1.5 weeks ago)










and another, same day.












> I know you believe that the chiro and massage do wonders for your horse...and there is nothing wrong with that. I guess I just have more questions in my head than you.


Which is fine that you have more questions in your head than me. If chiro and massage wasn't working for her, I wouldn't be doing it.



> No matter how much googling I do, I cannot find ANY explanation for "having a rib out", which leads me to believe that there is no scientific explanation.


What do you mean?

Ribs being out on a horse is very common, no way to avoid it either. The horse could have gotten bumped by one of their mates in the field.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Why are you against bute ?


Because it's just bad bad stuff, so bad for their liver.


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## Rainaisabelle

What? Bute is not ideal for horses but only if used for prolonged amounts of time


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> That's how she looks a lot of the time, but she doesn't always give those looks with a saddle on. Even if you take pics of her without a saddle on, she will often give those looks, it's just who she is. Do you remember those pics I took of her with just being tied? She had the mare glare there too.
> 
> Here is a good example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here she is fine though (this was from 1.5 weeks ago)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and another, same day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which is fine that you have more questions in your head than me. If chiro and massage wasn't working for her, I wouldn't be doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean?
> 
> Ribs being out on a horse is very common, no way to avoid it either. The horse could have gotten bumped by one of their mates in the field.


I meant exactly what I said......I can find NO scientific explanation(that is someone who does research, and can show me what an "out rib" looks like ), even on chiropractic sites. 

I have had many horses for over 50 years, and never had one with a "rib out", nor has anyone that I have known in the horse world.


----------



## gottatrot

I think the term "rib out" is also used in humans and it often refers to something called costochondritis. It is inflammation either of the rib cartilage or the muscles between the ribs (intercostals). 
Loose or inflamed ligaments can cause a slight movement of the rib which can cause nerve or muscle pinching/inflammation/pain.

A chiropractor cannot physically move a horse's rib, they are too deep and supported by strong muscles. But if inflammation is causing a pinched nerve, manipulation of the muscles and tissue surrounding the painful area can help the muscles relax enough for the ligament to move back into place.

This is similar to how a dislocated shoulder in a human is put back - the muscles are tight and inflamed, holding the joint out of place. Getting the muscles to relax and putting the arm in the right position allows the muscles to pull the shoulder back into the correct place. As long as there is painful spasm, this is impossible.

Ribs are flexible and move with every breath. They can move wrong and cause pinching and inflammation of surrounding tissue.









I'm sure chiropractors can sometimes be a waste of money. I've never had one work on my horses, but have several reliable friends who have had major issues fixed by chiropractors. If you don't know of anything wrong with your horse, I wouldn't bother having one out. But a friend's mare kept throwing her neck to one side for a couple of months, the chiropractor came out and did something with the horse's pelvis, and the horse began traveling straight with no more neck twisting. 

Just like with humans, having muscles shortened in certain areas from poor movement can cause a lot of pain that stretching, massage or manipulation of the right area can alleviate. Some "massage therapists" hold their hands in the air and hum, while others work the muscles and get them to stretch, relax, and allow a creature to use their body better.


----------



## bsms

Hoofpic said:


> ...Ribs being out on a horse is very common, no way to avoid it either. The horse could have gotten bumped by one of their mates in the field.


I had to Google it. I had never heard of it before today. I've never seen any sign of it.


----------



## EliRose

greentree said:


> I meant exactly what I said......I can find NO scientific explanation(that is someone who does research, and can show me what an "out rib" looks like ), even on chiropractic sites.
> 
> I have had many horses for over 50 years, and never had one with a "rib out", nor has anyone that I have known in the horse world.


As gottatrot said, it is referring to just a dislocated rib, or subluxated rib. However, it is not actually anything wrong with the rib . . . It is the ligaments surrounding the rib being sprained. After a nasty fall a couple of years ago, I often get pain around my ribs. My horse chiropractor (also an actual vet) told me to tape 'em up for a few days, then they were good as new! The ligaments relax and the rib can ease "back into place." You cannot force them back.

I am a firm believer in chiropractic work . . . with a really good chiro. I have the X-rays of my own neck and my horse's back to prove it. My horse apparently had terrible headaches for years and would toss his head around and get really stressed every time you touch his poll. Few pokes by the chiro/vet and he's not acted up with his head since. Instant change in his entire expression.

I've never used a massage therapist before but I'm getting ready to call one. My horse is just getting over a terrible case of strept (so bad we thought it was true Strangles until the culture came back) and he is incredibly body sore. But I work 100% _with a vet_ for everything.

Hoofpic, when was the last time a vet saw your mare?


----------



## Hoofpic

I forgot to mention and perhaps I should have mentioned this earlier (perhaps it matters or maybe it doesnt).

But when I go to tighten up the cinch in the arena before getting on Fly, she just stands there every single time, she wont react at all. 

I can even redo the cinch (completely loosen it and retighten) and she wont react at all. Just 4 or 5 days ago, (when I was experimenting with shims), I had her by the mounting block, I completely undid the cinch and undid the latigo to refeed it through and not a single reaction from her.

Same thing outside, she will not react at all. Its only when she is tied. Does this make any difference?


----------



## EliRose

That sounds like she's just being sassy while tied if she doesn't replicate the behavior . . .


----------



## Rainaisabelle

That would have been nice to know.


----------



## jaydee

Hoofpic - you're better off to stick with your principles of not using Bute 'just because'
You should never give Bute without first having some real idea as to why a horse needs it
If you're using it to ease inflammation combined with managing whatever's wrong then fair enough - though there are much better meds available now that are as or more effective but less harsh on the stomach
Way too often people give Bute to a horse that's lame and it masks the pain enough for the horse to do more than it should which results in a much bigger problem than you started with
Get your Vet out first and ask them to see what they think about her possible unsoundness and then go from there - X rays, Ultra sound, blood tests.
Sometimes skin sensitivity that makes a horse irritable when saddled is caused by a lack of magnesium or a lack of Vit E. 
It might also be worth having her tested for Lyme Disease


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> That sounds like she's just being sassy while tied if she doesn't replicate the behavior . . .


That's what I've been thinking too, and why I haven't brought out a vet or chiro much sooner. I have corrected her very hard for pinning her ears back and making the gesture to bite me before and I've noticed that the next few times after of riding and tacking her up, she doesn't try it again! As soon as I see her ears start to go back, I say "quit it" and I raise my hand and arm (making it big) warning her that she is going to get a big smack if she tries to bite. 

But then eventually she will try it again. But IF she is doing this just to be sassy and a brat about it, then obviously I am NOT correcting her near hard enough.

Two days ago, she had her ears back, turned her head back and opened her mouth wide open and made the gesture to bit as if she was a shark. You could even hear the "hhhhuuuttt" sound from her mouth. I said QUIT loudly and I was able to give her a real hard whack on her neck with the palm of my hand within a second. If she had connected, I most likely would have broken fingers. She didn't full extend her neck to reach me, but she curled her neck enough to tell me that she didn't like me doing up the latigo and cinch. Her mouth only got to about a foot from my hand. 

I will give an example. If Fly puts her teeth on me, she gets the maximum correction from me (thank god she has never done it). But still making the biting gesture and with her being very expressive, she makes it so visually obvious, that is still a big no no. Same with pinning the ears back.

One of my friends got bite this past weekend by her mare. She was asking her to pick up her foot and after the 7th or 8th time, she wouldn't listen, her mare bit her on the butt and my friend didn't reprimand her with any physical correction. She just told her not to do it. 



Rainaisabelle said:


> That would have been nice to know.


Sorry, I accidentally forgot to mention it. I didn't know if it was all that relevant either, but from the looks of it, it is.


----------



## Hoofpic

I will record it tomorrow and as soon as her ears go back, I will raise my hand and arm and make myself big and large and see what she does. I need to make myself much bigger than I currently have because obviously, she hasn't quit doing it. 

This reminds me of when the fitter was out (the most recent one from a week and a half ago). Fly bit her! We were just standing in the arena and Fly was next to her and bit her on the arm. Not hard but still teeth on skin and the fitter was not happy at all, and gave her a firm warning that she was going to get a punch to the muzzle if she tried it again. I immediately said to myself ,okay I am fine with you correcting her hard if she does it again, but please don't be punching her in the muzzle. 

Fly was about to try it again but the fitter put up her hand and gave her a real firm warning and Fly knocked it off. Thankfully, Fly did not try it again and did not get punched.

I felt really bad after that meeting with the fitter because she most likely thinks that Fly is this out of control, loose canon mare who needs groundwork and heavy disciplining. I apologized for Fly biting her and I told her that she is not normally like this and that she is a very good mare and all my friends love her.

The fitter did say "she is doing this because this horse hasn't had any boundaries set". But I did tell her that I have set them and she never tries to bite me randomly out of nowhere.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I will record it tomorrow and as soon as her ears go back, I will raise my hand and arm and make myself big and large and see what she does. I need to make myself much bigger than I currently have because obviously, she hasn't quit doing it.
> 
> This reminds me of when the fitter was out (the most recent one from a week and a half ago). Fly bit her! We were just standing in the arena and Fly was next to her and bit her on the arm. Not hard but still teeth on skin and the fitter was not happy at all, and gave her a firm warning that she was going to get a punch to the muzzle if she tried it again. *I immediately said to myself ,okay I am fine with you correcting her hard if she does it again, but please don't be punching her in the muzzle.*
> 
> Fly was about to try it again but the fitter put up her hand and gave her a real firm warning and Fly knocked it off. Thankfully, Fly did not try it again and did not get punched.
> 
> I felt really bad after that meeting with the fitter because she most likely thinks that Fly is this out of control, loose canon mare who needs groundwork and heavy disciplining. I apologized for Fly biting her and I told her that she is not normally like this and that she is a very good mare and all my friends love her.
> 
> The fitter did say "she is doing this because this horse hasn't had any boundaries set". But I did tell her that I have set them and she never tries to bite me randomly out of nowhere.


Regarding the bold, why did you just say that to yourself, not the fitter? If the fitter HAD punched her, you would have looked like an *** for getting upset because you didn't tell the fitter that you didn't approve of that type of reprimand. 

Also, the fitter may not have followed through on that threat. I know I've threatened my gelding with the glue factory if he doesn't behave, but that doesn't mean I'd follow through with it. :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## bsms

Hoofpic said:


> ...This reminds me of when the fitter was out (the most recent one from a week and a half ago). Fly bit her! We were just standing in the arena and Fly was next to her and bit her on the arm. Not hard but still teeth on skin and the fitter was not happy at all, and gave her a firm warning that she was going to get a punch to the muzzle if she tried it again. I immediately said to myself ,okay I am fine with you correcting her hard if she does it again, but please don't be punching her in the muzzle...The fitter did say "she is doing this because this horse hasn't had any boundaries set". But I did tell her that I have set them and she never tries to bite me randomly out of nowhere....


Probably best that I'll never meet Fly. If Fly seriously considered biting me, this would be my idea of getting big:








​ 
Just not interested in being friends with a biting horse. A horse who tries to bite me, let alone one who does, is declaring war on me. And that is what he or she would get.

I believe in mutually acceptable compromises, but a horse has no need to compromise with someone he/she can boss around. If your horse feels free to bite other people, you'd best get used to doing her feet. And her shots. And everything else that involves getting close to her.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> But I did tell her that I have set them and she never tries to bite me randomly out of nowhere.


...But isn't this conversation about her trying to bite you randomly out of nowhere?


----------



## Prairie

Has it occurred to you that Fly's escalated the communication that something is wrong and she hurts because you ignored her more subtle discussions? You seem to be too quick to correct this poor mare without having a clue about what she's saying! A chiropractor is NOT a vet---get a equine vet out to find out what is wrong with this poor girl. You've swatted this mare more in the short time you've owned her than I have over 57 years for all of the horses I've handled---I listen to my horses!


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Has it occurred to you that Fly's escalated the communication that something is wrong and she hurts because you ignored her more subtle discussions? You seem to be too quick to correct this poor mare without having a clue about what she's saying! A chiropractor is NOT a vet---get a equine vet out to find out what is wrong with this poor girl. You've swatted this mare more in the short time you've owned her than I have over 57 years for all of the horses I've handled---I listen to my horses!


I haven't hit her very much compared to when I first got her. In fact right now, it's so rare that I need to correct her hard by whacking her. When I whacked her 2 days ago, that was the first time I've whacked her in at least a month.


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> Hoofpic - you're better off to stick with your principles of not using Bute 'just because'
> You should never give Bute without first having some real idea as to why a horse needs it
> If you're using it to ease inflammation combined with managing whatever's wrong then fair enough - though there are much better meds available now that are as or more effective but less harsh on the stomach
> Way too often people give Bute to a horse that's lame and it masks the pain enough for the horse to do more than it should which results in a much bigger problem than you started with
> Get your Vet out first and ask them to see what they think about her possible unsoundness and then go from there - X rays, Ultra sound, blood tests.
> Sometimes skin sensitivity that makes a horse irritable when saddled is caused by a lack of magnesium or a lack of Vit E.
> It might also be worth having her tested for Lyme Disease


Thanks. 

I just know that when she was on bute in June of 2015 for 5 days, the vet wanted me to give her I believe 2 grams for 5 days and it was incredibly hard to get her to take it. If I mixed it with her grain, she won't eat the grain, so I had to resort to giving it to her through a syringe. She will do everything she can to avoid taking it.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Regarding the bold, why did you just say that to yourself, not the fitter? If the fitter HAD punched her, you would have looked like an *** for getting upset because you didn't tell the fitter that you didn't approve of that type of reprimand.
> 
> Also, the fitter may not have followed through on that threat. I know I've threatened my gelding with the glue factory if he doesn't behave, but that doesn't mean I'd follow through with it. :icon_rolleyes:


I guess you could say that I gave Fly the benefit of the doubt that she wouldn't try it again. 

It must be extremely difficult for a lot of professionals when dealing and handling other people's horses, to not apply a physical reprimand as hard as they would like simply because it's not their horse.


----------



## greentree

I just keep coming back to the title of this thread.....I have only EVER had teeth connect with me ONCE....the mare was trying to nip the horse that I had on a lead...and she accidentally connected with me. Horses do NOT threaten the leader more than once.
Like I said before, the mare looks (and sounds) quite unhappy.

I asked a VERY wise old horse trainer/shoer once what he did if a horse bit him.
He said, "I HIT THE OWNER!!!!". The owner /handler is supposed to be PAYING ATTENTION TO THE HORSE.


----------



## Hoofpic

bsms said:


> Probably best that I'll never meet Fly. If Fly seriously considered biting me, this would be my idea of getting big:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Just not interested in being friends with a biting horse. A horse who tries to bite me, let alone one who does, is declaring war on me. And that is what he or she would get.
> 
> I believe in mutually acceptable compromises, but a horse has no need to compromise with someone he/she can boss around. If your horse feels free to bite other people, you'd best get used to doing her feet. And her shots. And everything else that involves getting close to her.


Fly is not a biting horse, but she was extremely bratty that day the fitter was out. She wouldn't stand for her, she was swinging her butt into her, she was being the Fly of old when I first got her. But I noticed that (and same with the massage lady as well), when I am there next to her, Fly smartens up.

It's just who she is, when she senses a new stranger handling her, she will test them to the limit to see what she can get away with. She did the same with the massage lady, though not as bad. She did the same thing when I switched her over to the BO's farrier, but now she is good with her because the farrier set the boundaries with her real hard and real fast the first time.

She even still does it with my trainer. A couple weeks ago, as I was about to untie Fly, my trainer was near by and as Fly saw her, she turned her butt to her. Trainer whacked her on the butt.

Fly is a good mare but like her halter says, she is cheeky and can be rude at times. She is persistent and this is why she will never be at the bottom of any herd IMO.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I guess you could say that I gave Fly the benefit of the doubt that she wouldn't try it again.
> 
> It must be extremely difficult for a lot of professionals when dealing and handling other people's horses, to not apply a physical reprimand as hard as they would like simply because it's not their horse.


It has nothing to do with giving the benefit of the doubt. All you have to say is "I'd rather you not reprimand her in that manner, if it comes to it. _____________ would be more appropriate and would suffice."

My gelding is notorious for trying to lean all is 1600lbs on farriers. I tell them straight upfront that if he leans on them, to step out from under him and let him fall. They don't believe me at first, but then he leans on them. I convince them to step out from under him and BAM, he falls. Picks himself back up and doesn't try it again. Point being, if you're honest with them and the correct you instruct them to give is fair, they'll listen to you.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> ...But isn't this conversation about her trying to bite you randomly out of nowhere?


Fly doesn't try to bite me randomly out of nowhere, only when I am FIRST feeding that latigo through the cinch ring and she knows what I am doing. But she doesn't do it every single time, most of the time she just puts her ears back and I say QUIT and look at her in the eye and she knows and it stops her in her tracks.

Now my friend got bit on Saturday and it was quite hard by her mare. That was out of nowhere and it was from her asking her to pick up her foot. She refused, so she decided to bite her hard.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> Fly doesn't try to bite me randomly out of nowhere, only when I am FIRST feeding that latigo through the cinch ring and she knows what I am doing. But she doesn't do it every single time, most of the time she just puts her ears back and I say QUIT and look at her in the eye and she knows.
> 
> Now my friend got bit on Saturday and it was quite hard by her mare. That was out of nowhere and it was from her asking her to pick up her foot.


Ok. Well I'll paraphrase what everyone else has already said. A horse bites for one of two reasons.

1) They don't have set boundaries.

2) They are in pain.

So which is it?


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> It has nothing to do with giving the benefit of the doubt. All you have to say is "I'd rather you not reprimand her in that manner, if it comes to it. _____________ would be more appropriate and would suffice."
> 
> My gelding is notorious for trying to lean all is 1600lbs on farriers. I tell them straight upfront that if he leans on them, to step out from under him and let him fall. They don't believe me at first, but then he leans on them. I convince them to step out from under him and BAM, he falls. Picks himself back up and doesn't try it again. Point being, if you're honest with them and the correct you instruct them to give is fair, they'll listen to you.


I agree and see what you mean. It was my fault for not immediately telling my fitter at the time that I would rather her not punch Fly if it came to that. Now I know for next time. 

You are right, perhaps she was just saying that she would do it but wouldn't actually do it. But you never know, and with people you just met and don't know particularly well, it's better to not take the chance.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Ok. Well I'll paraphrase what everyone else has already said. A horse bites for one of two reasons.
> 
> 1) They don't have set boundaries.
> 
> 2) They are in pain.
> 
> So which is it?


Hard to say in this situation. Because Fly doesn't ever do it when I cinch her up or tighten up the cinch before getting on her, it tells me that she is just being a brat about it.

I will get a video up tomorrow and perhaps it will give a better idea. But it's hard to tell because maybe she won't react at all. She could just be putting her ears back because maybe I did accidentally pull her hairs when cinching her up without knowing and she has seen that experience as a bad experience and now she sees being cinched up as a bad experience for her. 

But then again, that wouldn't explain why when I cinch her up before getting on her (whether it's in the arena or outside anywhere), she stands and doesn't even put her ears back. It doesn't make any sense to me.

My massage lady did give and show me a spot (dead centre of her chest) that she wants me to massage for 2 mins from standing on each side of her before putting the saddle on. She said that it helps loosen up the front muscles and the muscles where the cinch sits. Maybe I will try this tomorrow first.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> Fly is not a biting horse, but she was extremely bratty that day the fitter was out. She wouldn't stand for her, she was swinging her butt into her, she was being the Fly of old when I first got her. But I noticed that (and same with the massage lady as well), when I am there next to her, Fly smartens up.


So, what did you do about it? You're her owner. You are supposed to be the one paying attention to her and reprimanding her if needed.



> It's just who she is, when she senses a new stranger handling her, she will test them to the limit to see what she can get away with. She did the same with the massage lady, though not as bad. She did the same thing when I switched her over to the BO's farrier, but now she is good with her because the farrier set the boundaries with her real hard and real fast the first time.


No. NO NO NO NO NO!!! That is an EXCUSE! My gelding, even though he can be an *** at times, is the same for ANYONE who handles him. He is polite, respectful, and listens. I let my VERY non-horsey husband lead him and hold him while I mess with him and he doesn't put a toe out of line. My BO can lead him to and from a stall with just a lead rope around his neck. Why? Because he has been made to understand that ALL people are to be respected, not just me. Yes, he will test a little from time to time, but he does not go further than being a little pushy. No nipping, no swinging the butt towards the person.



> She even still does it with my trainer. A couple weeks ago, as I was about to untie Fly, my trainer was near by and as Fly saw her, she turned her butt to her. Trainer whacked her on the butt.
> 
> Fly is a good mare but like her halter says, she is cheeky and can be rude at times. She is persistent and this is why she will never be at the bottom of any herd IMO.


Again, EXCUSES. My best friend's Arab/QH mare is very dominant. Give her an inch and she'll take five miles. She doesn't get to be rude or cheeky or persistent with anyone. She understands that the humans are the top of the herd and she IS NOT. She can be rude or cheeky or persistent with the other horses all she wants, but when a person is involved, she behaves or else...


----------



## Hoofpic

Going back to Fly's pics, here is one from early this year. You can see, even she is giving her best friend the evil mare stare.


----------



## PoptartShop

Fly needs to treat EVERYONE with the same respect. Not just you. I second Drafty.

Can't keep making excuses for her behavior. Don't allow her to be rude.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> I haven't hit her very much compared to when I first got her. In fact right now, it's so rare that I need to correct her hard by whacking her. When I whacked her 2 days ago, that was the first time I've whacked her in at least a month.




How long have you had this mare and still are whacking her? In the 6+ years after rescuing the 2 TWH's, neither hubby nor I have ever had the need to hit them to get our point across simply because we listen to what they are telling us. Remember a horse is a reflection of their handler---what are YOU doing wrong?


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> So, what did you do about it? You're her owner. You are supposed to be the one paying attention to her and reprimanding her if needed.


If I was standing right next to her, I would correct her but when I have the massage lady out, chiro, whatever...I like to step aside and let them do their thing. I will usually be 10ft away or so and just hang out, or do something else while talking with them. So if something happened, I wouldn't be able to correct Fly quick enough because I'm 10ft away.



> No. NO NO NO NO NO!!! That is an EXCUSE! My gelding, even though he can be an *** at times, is the same for ANYONE who handles him. He is polite, respectful, and listens. I let my VERY non-horsey husband lead him and hold him while I mess with him and he doesn't put a toe out of line. My BO can lead him to and from a stall with just a lead rope around his neck. Why? Because he has been made to understand that ALL people are to be respected, not just me. Yes, he will test a little from time to time, but he does not go further than being a little pushy. No nipping, no swinging the butt towards the person.
> 
> Again, EXCUSES. My best friend's Arab/QH mare is very dominant. Give her an inch and she'll take five miles. She doesn't get to be rude or cheeky or persistent with anyone. She understands that the humans are the top of the herd and she IS NOT. She can be rude or cheeky or persistent with the other horses all she wants, but when a person is involved, she behaves or else...


I don't mean to be making excuses because I don't believe in them anymore. But I need to step it up and make sure that Fly treats every person near or handling her with respect. 

I know one thing that I do is, if someone wants to come see her and say I am just leading Fly somewhere, Fly will often try to get in that person's space by wanting to snoop so I will immediately get her to back up out of their space, then I tell her to stand.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> How long have you had this mare and still are whacking her? In the 6+ years after rescuing the 2 TWH's, neither hubby nor I have ever had the need to hit them to get our point across simply because we listen to what they are telling us. Remember a horse is a reflection of their handler---what are YOU doing wrong?


What am I doing wrong? Well when Fly wants to pin her ears back when I am doing up the cinch, I need to step it up and make myself even bigger and larger to tell her to knock it off and knock it off for good. Obviously I haven't laid down my correction hard enough.

One thing that I do know that stops her dead in her tracks (because it has worked marvellously) is like you suggested, grunt when I say something to her with lots of force pushed from my chest. So I usually say QUIT or QUIT IT and with a lot of force from my chest. It works everytime.

You're making it sound like I'm having to whack her daily. No. I've maybe whacked her maybe 4 times in the past 3 months and it was all from the same thing. I USED to have to whack her daily. Remember when I first arrived at the barn and she would have her days where she just wouldn't stand for me and would want to constantly swing her hind into me? Well she stopped that long long ago. She never swings her hind end into me ever anymore. I used to have to whack her on the butt just to get her to move her butt over but now I can just touch her hind or cluck and she moves over everytime. Very rare do I have to ask twice.


----------



## jenkat86

Move her feet.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Move her feet.


The only way to do this quick enough (since she would be tied) is to rapidly swing her hind end back and fourth from side to side. I think that's why I have felt a bit constraint when correcting her hard enough with her tied.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> What am I doing wrong? Well when Fly wants to pin her ears back when I am doing up the cinch, I need to step it up and make myself even bigger and larger to tell her to knock it off and knock it off for good. Obviously I haven't laid down my correction hard enough.
> 
> One thing that I do know that stops her dead in her tracks (because it has worked marvellously) is like you suggested, grunt when I say something to her with lots of force pushed from my chest. So I usually say QUIT or QUIT IT and with a lot of force from my chest. It works everytime.
> 
> You're making it sound like I'm having to whack her daily. No. I've maybe whacked her maybe 4 times in the past 3 months and it was all from the same thing. I USED to have to whack her daily. Remember when I first arrived at the barn and she would have her days where she just wouldn't stand for me and would want to constantly swing her hind into me? Well she stopped that long long ago. She never swings her hind end into me ever anymore. I used to have to whack her on the butt just to get her to move her butt over but now I can just touch her hind or cluck and she moves over everytime. Very rare do I have to ask twice.



You really don't get it! There is absolutely no reason to hit a horse UNLESS it's threatening you with bodily harm! This mare is trying to tell you that something is wrong------now figure out what she's telling you! What are you doing wrong so she needs a massage and is out????---in 46 years of owning horses, none of mine have ever needed a chiro or massage and mind have done a lot more work with hours in the saddle dragging cattle, negotiating challenging trails, sailing over 5 foot fences than you've ridden Fly.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> The only way to do this quick enough (since she would be tied) is to rapidly swing her hind end back and fourth from side to side. I think that's why I have felt a bit constraint when correcting her hard enough with her tied.


You said she can ground tie, so don't tie her, and when she acts up make her start backing up.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> You said she can ground tie, so don't tie her, and when she acts up make her start backing up.


I would have to do this either outside or when no one else is in the barn because we aren't allowed to have loose horses in the tack aisle unless no one else is there.


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> I would have to do this either outside or when no one else is in the barn because we aren't allowed to have loose horses in the tack aisle unless no one else is there.


She's not loose if you are standing there with her.


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> You really don't get it! There is absolutely no reason to hit a horse UNLESS it's threatening you with bodily harm! This mare is trying to tell you that something is wrong------now figure out what she's telling you! What are you doing wrong so she needs a massage and is out????---in 46 years of owning horses, none of mine have ever needed a chiro or massage and mind have done a lot more work with hours in the saddle dragging cattle, negotiating challenging trails, sailing over 5 foot fences than you've ridden Fly.


There is no gaurentee that something is wrong, she could just be doing it because she is seeing what she can get away with.

I never said that I was counting out your suggestion, but I just think it's a bit odd how she will only lash out when she tied and not anywhere else. I can cinch her up all day long in the arena, outside and she won't even put her ears back. She stands perfect like a good mare. 

But a horse that makes the gesture to bit IMO does fall in that category of threatening with bodily harm. It's no different than one threatening to kick.

Just because your horses has never needed a massage or an adjustment, doesn't mean that applies to Fly. I know 100% for a fact that she benefits greatly from both. Even my former vet recommended it when Fly was lame in June 2015. She said that I should get some massage work done on her because the lameness was soft tissue related. Two massage sessions with red light and she was back to her normal self again. I gaurentee you that this did a hundred times more than the 5 days of bute did.


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## greentree

Aasnnnnndddd.,....we are back to square ONE, yet again!


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> She's not loose if you are standing there with her.


True but technically all horses in the barn have to be tied when there is more than one in there. Don't worry, I will have a day where it's just me and Fly in the barn. It comes quite often, I should have done this yesterday now that I think of it.


----------



## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> There is no gaurentee that something is wrong, she could just be doing it because she is seeing what she can get away with.
> 
> I never said that I was counting out your suggestion, but I just think it's a bit odd how she will only lash out when she tied and not anywhere else. I can cinch her up all day long in the arena, outside and she won't even put her ears back. She stands perfect like a good mare.
> 
> But a horse that makes the gesture to bit IMO does fall in that category of threatening with bodily harm. It's no different than one threatening to kick.
> 
> Just because your horses has never needed a massage or an adjustment, doesn't mean that applies to Fly. I know 100% for a fact that she benefits greatly from both. Even my former vet recommended it when Fly was lame in June 2015. She said that I should get some massage work done on her.


Hoofpic, if the mare is sore enough to be acting out, despite all of your "great benefit" from the chiro and massage, how can you be SO positive that it is helping??

And, I just have to throw this in....when a person has NO knowledge, EVERYONE who has any looks like VERY knowlegable expert!


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Hoofpic, if the mare is sore enough to be acting out, despite all of your "great benefit" from the chiro and massage, how can you be SO positive that it is helping??
> 
> And, I just have to throw this in....when a person has NO knowledge, EVERYONE who has any looks like VERY knowlegable expert!


Because the massage helped her recover from her minor lameness in June 2015. Even the vet said it was the massage and red light that really helped speed up the healing.

When she was sore a year ago, it was the ONE chiro adjustment that brought her back to normal and it was literally a drastic change in the span of 24 hours. 

After each of those treatments, both the vet and chiro couldn't believe she was the same horse. The improvement was that huge. And it's not like I had to have visit after visit on Fly to get her to overcome her problem, it was 1 for the chiro and 2 for the massage. If that doesn't prove to you that Fly benefits greatly from both massage and chiro, then I don't know what does. 

I'm sorry that you guys aren't believers in chiro and massage but I am. Chiro can heal so many things that many people don't realize.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Where did the minor lameness come from ?


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Where did the minor lameness come from ?


To this day, I still wish I had an answer to this but after all this thinking, I still strongly believe that it was from the very first night when Fly arrived at the previous barn. They didn't have a quarentine period there for new horses, everyone could literally throw their new horse into any field as they choose (which IMO was very bad).

The paddock that I planned to put her in for the time being was used up for a few hours by another boarder's horse. So I decided to put her in another paddock next to another mare which was a bad idea because this mare can be bossy with other mares. 

Well I put Fly in there, tossed her some hay and the mare would super aggresively charge up along the rail to Fly who the boss is.

Well the second time she did it, Fly decided that she has had enough so she turned her butt to her and kicked out. These paddocks weren't fenced, they had the big horizontal metal bars, one at the bottom, middle and top. Well when Fly kicked out, she got both her back legs caught up on the middle bar and it took her a second or two to get them back out. They weren't caught on anything, they just were on top of the middle bar. So Fly was panicking and after a couple seconds she got her back legs free and she was freaking out like you wouldn't believe. Heavy breathing, sweating, etc.

After this happened, I immediately moved Fly to another paddock.

Now the good news is that she didn't hurt her back legs, just a couple minor surface scrapes which healed up in a few weeks. But my guess was that she was putting so much weight on those front two legs (even if it was only for 2-3 seconds), that it possibly overstrained her front left (and that's where she was lame). The middle bar was about 4ft high from the ground so seeing how Fly is pretty small, that means that just about all of her weight was on her front two legs for those seconds.


----------



## jenkat86

@Hoofpic It's no secret that I am a huge fan of chiro work. It's something I keep up on regularly with my mare, but nothing substitutes an actual vet doing an exam. Chiropractics and massage are "compliments" to vet care. Do you get an annual exam for her? Does she get vaccines, or her teeth done? Even if there is no lameness and nothing out of the ordinary- it's still a good idea to get an annual exam. When was the last time she actually had one?


----------



## Tazzie

Ok, I'll speak up briefly here.

With regards to chiro, I do believe in them. Izzie has benefited from them as well. Multiple professionals in our area use and believe in them. I didn't at first though, so I 100% understand why people don't. I'm fortunate our chiro is a former veterinarian, the highest regarded in the area. If you see benefit, keep getting them done. It's your money.

Now the behavior. Only behaves that way with strangers? Then you have not taught her respect. At all. Izzie and Fly are only a year apart. A good friend of mine was able to lead my mare around a busy arena while we worked with unruly horses (we're talking rearing and being flat out disrespectful). Izzie was on a loose lead and calmly walking next to my friend. My friend has SEVERE health issues. She flat out wouldn't be strong enough if my tank of a mare decided to shove her around. She has never handled Izzie before. Yet, could handle her on a brisk morning after being stalled all night around an enormous amount of activity.

Your mare has no respect. I don't know how that could be typed any clearer. There is something you are doing that is wrong. We don't know what it is, and doubt we will, because we are not with you. No one is standing by your side.

But what she is doing while tacking up is a serious issue. Biting like that is never good. You need to consult either your vet (HIGHLY recommended because to me it still sounds like pain) or your trainer. But you need to do something. She is practically shouting at you that something needs to be addressed. It is your job to figure it out.

And just because it's a pet peeve of mine. Bite = she is trying to bite you. Bit = she bit someone. You are using them backwards.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> @Hoofpic It's no secret that I am a huge fan of chiro work. It's something I keep up on regularly with my mare, but nothing substitutes an actual vet doing an exam. Chiropractics and massage are "compliments" to vet care. Do you get an annual exam for her? Does she get vaccines, or her teeth done? Even if there is no lameness and nothing out of the ordinary- it's still a good idea to get an annual exam. When was the last time she actually had one?


The last time she had an annual exam was June 2015 before I bought her.

Do most owners generally do annual exams? I know one things forsure is that no one at the barn now does them but I am all for them.

Yes she gets all the vaccines needed, this includes coggins as well. The BO and trainer have a vaccine day where they go give shots to all the horses on the barn at once. The last time she had her teeth done was october 2015.

I do have her name up on the list for another dentist checkup, but my trainer doesn't know when the dentist will be back out. I know he will be coming out before winter, but of course when I asked her about him, this was when the BO was still in the hospital so now that the BO is back home, I can ask him to see when he will be out. Even if Fly doesn't need her teeth done, I at least want her checked up.


----------



## Hoofpic

Tazzie, you have convinced me to go to the barn today. I will record my video today. I want to record and try my BO's suggestion in making sure that I am not just accidentally pulling her hairs, so I can find out sooner, then I can move on and have a vet out sooner. I wasn't going to go out today but the anticipation is killing me.

I know my BO still did ask to see Fly before getting a vet out, but if I just book a call with a vet now, I really hope that he doesn't take offense and think that I was ignoring his advice by not having him observe first. Because from talking with him yesterday, it did sound like that he would like to observe first before getting a vet out. 

He said to have either him or my trainer observe first but I trust my BO a lot more for something like this and I would rather not have my trainer do it. I just don't think she has the knowledge.

Thoughts?


----------



## jenkat86

Hoofpic said:


> The last time she had an annual exam was June 2015 before I bought her.
> 
> Do most owners generally do annual exams? I know one things forsure is that no one at the barn now does them but I am all for them.


Yes. In my area most owners do it twice a year if they board. Spring and Fall. That includes vaccines



Hoofpic said:


> Yes she gets all the vaccines needed, this includes coggins as well. The BO and trainer have a vaccine day where they go give shots to all the horses on the barn at once. The last time she had her teeth done was october 2015.


Do you know what she is being vaccinated for? 

In the states coggins are only valid for one year, not sure if it's the same in Canada.

Horses her age should have their teeth checked annually. She's due.




Hoofpic said:


> I do have her name up on the list for another dentist checkup, but my trainer doesn't know when the dentist will be back out. I know he will be coming out before winter, but of course when I asked her about him, this was when the BO was still in the hospital so now that the BO is back home, I can ask him to see when he will be out. Even if Fly doesn't need her teeth done, I at least want her checked up.


You need to take control of all this and not depend on the barn.

Also- do you deworm her?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

If you believe in annual checkups, why has it been almost a year and a half since she had a general checkup? It doesn't matter what anyone else at the barn does with their horses. You do what you want for your horse. 

My best friend has had a vet out ONCE in the four years I've known her and it was because her gelding tangled with a mountain lion. We had already cleaned and dressed the wounds, she just had the vet out to make sure they didn't get infected. Her horses rarely see a farrier (she believes in letting the horses "self trim") and she can't afford to have their teeth floated (even though her QH mare desperately needs hers done). I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's what she does.

Then, there's one of the ladies at my barn who has the vet out for EVERYTHING. Semi-annual checkups, shots, her mare sneezed, etc. Overkill, IMO, but to each their own.

Point being, you do what you want for YOUR horse and don't worry about what everyone else is doing.


----------



## Hoofpic

jenkat86 said:


> Yes. In my area most owners do it twice a year if they board. Spring and Fall. That includes vaccines


Twice a year? Oh wow. I just called my vet and they charge $110cdn per exam, takes 45mins. 



> Do you know what she is being vaccinated for?
> 
> In the states coggins are only valid for one year, not sure if it's the same in Canada.
> 
> Horses her age should have their teeth checked annually. She's due.


Flu, coggins, west nile and Rhino I believe.

I need to ask my BO on when the dentist is back out. SHould have asked him yesterday.



> You need to take control of all this and not depend on the barn.
> 
> Also- do you deworm her?


Well, he is the one with the contact info for the dentist, he books when he comes out. 

Yes all the horses get dewormed every 3 months. Just like vaccine day, the BO and trainer go and do all the horses at once. The BO gets his dewormers from his supplier. He rotates between two, usually one with that one drug in it (forgot the name).

I want to just book for a vet to come out (I called and they said they are free tomorrow afternoon, Wed afternoon and Thurs afternoon), and not even bother going out to the barn today (just go tomorrow), but I'm really hesistant after having a long discussion with my BO and whether he will feel like it's a slap in his face if I don't take his advice from yesterday.

I know he is just trying to help and I should at least try out his suggestion first before getting a vet out. I think it's only fair that he gets to at least watch and observe with his thoughts first (and he can chime in) before getting a vet out. He's a good man and is just trying to help first with his knowledge before jumping out to get a vet out.

I say I go to the barn right now, record the video for you guys, see how Fly reacts and if the BO is around see if he would like to observe. I really don't want my trainer observing, I just don't think she has the knowledge for stuff like this.

I just feel that if I just booked for a vet to come out, and my BO finds out that I didn't at least try his suggestion or have him get to observe first, that he would see it as a slap in the face and would probably be more reluctant in giving me more advice in the future. I know that some of you guys would feel that way.


----------



## jenkat86

Good. I'm glad you know what she's being vaccinated for. I was a little worried for a minute.


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## egrogan

Coggins is not a vaccination.

Can a non-DVM even do that?


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## natisha

Your barn does self coggins? Not possible, coggins is not a vaccination, it's a lab test & cannot be done by barn staff.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> If you believe in annual checkups, why has it been almost a year and a half since she had a general checkup? It doesn't matter what anyone else at the barn does with their horses. You do what you want for your horse.
> 
> My best friend has had a vet out ONCE in the four years I've known her and it was because her gelding tangled with a mountain lion. We had already cleaned and dressed the wounds, she just had the vet out to make sure they didn't get infected. Her horses rarely see a farrier (she believes in letting the horses "self trim") and she can't afford to have their teeth floated (even though her QH mare desperately needs hers done). I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's what she does.
> 
> Then, there's one of the ladies at my barn who has the vet out for EVERYTHING. Semi-annual checkups, shots, her mare sneezed, etc. Overkill, IMO, but to each their own.
> 
> Point being, you do what you want for YOUR horse and don't worry about what everyone else is doing.


I am sorry for letting Fly down and not getting the annual exam done in 6 months ago and completely underestimating the important of the annual exam.

I was driving to the barn just now, was half way there then I turned back home. Why? Because something didn't feel right. I was going to go to the barn to do a video for you guys of my putting the cinch on Fly. But I said to myself, I know I need to get this annual exam done and this gives me a reason to have the vet out.

My biggest fear was that if I just called out a vet to come assess this problem with Fly, after my BO spent over an hour with me talking with me and offering me advice, there is a good chance that he wouldn't be too impressed and that he would see it as a slap in the face. 

BUT because I am overdue for an annual exam on Fly, this gives me a reason to have the vet out. So I will just text my BO right now saying that "I just realized that I am well overdue for an annual exam on Fly, so I'm going to have to have a vet out anyways tomorrow". That way, he has the heads up on what's going on and when he sees the vet show up tomorrow, he's not g oing to just assume that I completely ignored his advice from yesterday.

How does this sound?

I just went by my gut feeling and my gut feeling said to just have a vet out period.


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## greentree

Fly is YOUR horse!! You do not have to make excuses to your BO, trainer, barn mates, internet friends or anyone for her care!!


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## Whinnie

A vet visit is less expensive than you said you paid for your saddle pad.


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## Prairie

The core vaccinations for horses are


Eastern and Western Encephalitis
Tetanus
Rabies
West Nile 


Plus any additional vaccines your vet recommends for you area. So what you have scheduled are insufficient. Hoofpic, you really need to do research on horses so you are knowledgeable about the basics----this should have been done long before you bought a horse.


Fly is sore.......that's why you were told to massage her chest muscles. That is why she's fussing when you saddle her. She's most likely biting/nipping at the farrier and others because it hurts to raise her hooves. She's also short striding. Just how many signs do you need to figure out what this mare is trying to tell you?


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## DraftyAiresMum

greentree said:


> Fly is YOUR horse!! You do not have to make excuses to your BO, trainer, barn mates, internet friends or anyone for her care!!


THIS!!!! :clap:


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## Rainaisabelle

Aren't those vaccinations yearly ? YOU really need to record when things are done in your own record book so you know when they were done and when they are due don't rely on anyone else to do it


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I really don't want my trainer observing, I just don't think she has the knowledge for stuff like this.


THEN WHY IS SHE YOUR TRAINER?
Sorry, I'm just having a really hard time with the fact that your trainer so clearly doesn't know about some very important parts of basic horse care.

Also, yeah, sounds like you should have a vet out and ask about her short striding (maybe show the vet the video), the cinch problems (ulcers?), her vaccinations (which ones should you have?), etc.,etc. Make a list, have the vet talk with you about each one of them, TAKE NOTES (unlike with the saddle fitter, who supposedly talked so fast you couldn't).


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Fly is YOUR horse!! You do not have to make excuses to your BO, trainer, barn mates, internet friends or anyone for her care!!


I know but my BO did spend a good amount of time yesterday just giving me advice in trying to help me. So I dont want him to think that when he sees a vet at the barn tomorrow that I just completely ignored all the suggestions that he gave me 24 hours ago. If this was some of you guys, i know some of you would be upset, there is no doubt about it.

Im not ignoring the Bo's advice and its not that I dont want him to observe Fly, but I feel that I have let this drag on for too long now and i shouldnt hold off any longer on getting a vet out. If this just recently started, okay then Ican see having my BO watch me cinch up Fly, but its been two months.

I will say though, that i dont take Flys health lightly and when she needed a vet, I got a vet. When she needed massage, I got one. When she needed a chiro, I got one.

I just wanted to double check I needed one because at the previous barn I always had people and boarders tell me that I react too quickly in getting a vet out. 

Like when Fly was lame, I got a vet out the next day. When she got injured in July, and couldnt chew hay, I got a vet out and even paid the $100 after hours call out fee since it was on a Saturday. The barn helper at the time and a friend boarder told me to wait until the morning and give it time. Im like NO! If she is not eating her hay and coughing it up then I will get a vet out right away, not the next day. What if she was choking. You just dont wait on stuff like that. I would be so devastated if I went home, then came back the next day and found out something happened.

I was so scared for fly that night, I was going to sleep in my car in the barn parking lot. I went home to sleep but I couldnt sleep and I ran out 5am the following morning to hand graze her.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Hoofpic said:


> I know but my BO did spend a good amount of time yesterday just giving me advice in trying to help me. So I dont want to think that when he sees a vet at the barn tomorrow that I just completely ignored all the suggestions that he gave me 24 hours ago. If this was some of you guys, i know some of you would be upset.


If he's upset, that's his problem, not yours. People can be upset with you. It's allowed and it won't hurt you. If he asks why you got the vet out, just tell him that you realized she was overdue for her annual checkup anyway, so you figured you'd kill two birds with one stone. You don't have to tell him BEFORE you get the vet out. That just makes you seem needy and immature and lacking confidence.


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## Rainaisabelle

You care way to much about what people think. It's YOUR horse YOUR decision Lordy. Yes YOU let it drag out to long for no reason at all because you thought she was being a brat. This is why green on green sometimes doesn't work because you're constantly mistaking signals which in the end could get you seriously injured or kill you.


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## Rainaisabelle

I also forgot to add it's YOUR responsibility not the BO


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> The core vaccinations for horses are
> 
> 
> Eastern and Western Encephalitis
> Tetanus
> Rabies
> West Nile
> 
> 
> Plus any additional vaccines your vet recommends for you area. So what you have scheduled are insufficient. Hoofpic, you really need to do research on horses so you are knowledgeable about the basics----this should have been done long before you bought a horse.
> 
> 
> Fly is sore.......that's why you were told to massage her chest muscles. That is why she's fussing when you saddle her. She's most likely biting/nipping at the farrier and others because it hurts to raise her hooves. She's also short striding. Just how many signs do you need to figure out what this mare is trying to tell you?


Don't take my word 100% on the vaccinations that all the horses get the barn. I am almost certain that they get more than the 3 or 4 that I listed, I just don't know what they are. My BO would know and I could get the list off him if I wanted. If anything, I know that from a man of very high standards, shots and vaccinations is one thing that the BO doesn't go lightly on. This is why he is so particular on what horses come into the barn, he needs to know their history etc. 

That is why before I boarded there, he drilled me with questions on what Fly's history was, where she was born, lived, where I bought her from, if she goes to shows, what vaccines has she had, when they were done, etc. That's a sign of a good BO.

How long have you noticed Fly short striding for in my videos?

So far the notes that my vet before making the trip tomorrow is...

1) Annual exam
2) Short striding on hind left leg
3) Girthy


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## Rainaisabelle

Oml you need to know what vaccinations your horse is getting!!!!!!


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> THEN WHY IS SHE YOUR TRAINER?
> Sorry, I'm just having a really hard time with the fact that your trainer so clearly doesn't know about some very important parts of basic horse care.
> 
> Also, yeah, sounds like you should have a vet out and ask about her short striding (maybe show the vet the video), the cinch problems (ulcers?), her vaccinations (which ones should you have?), etc.,etc. Make a list, have the vet talk with you about each one of them, TAKE NOTES (unlike with the saddle fitter, who supposedly talked so fast you couldn't).


I'm not saying that she doesn't know about stuff like this, but I know for a fact that the BO knows more. Often my trainer will go to my BO for stuff like this as the BO is still very much a teacher and mentor to my trainer. 

My trainer is great, just not for everything which is fine because not everyone is going to know everything. My massage lady knows accupressure therapy, whereas my former massage lady did not. But it doesn't mean that she wasn't a good therapist, she was still very good and healed Fly's past lameness in just 2 visits. 

You bet that I will be taking notes this time and I will be asking "WHY" a lot to the vet. I'm going to ask it so much that she's probably going to think I'm wierd.

I will sit there with my notepad and pen so when I look the notes over afterwards and post back on here, I will have no confusion.

I am going to prepare a list of questions tonight to ask the vet.

I'm scared for tomorrow. I don't know why, but I'm just scared that I might receive news that I don't wanna hear.


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## jenkat86

Rainaisabelle said:


> Oml you need to know what vaccinations your horse is getting!!!!!!


This. 

You need to know WHAT she is getting. WHY she is getting it and WHEN she is due for it. 

...and you should probably know what that one dewormer ingredient is that they always use. And look up parasite tolerance in equines while you're at it.


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## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> If he's upset, that's his problem, not yours. People can be upset with you. It's allowed and it won't hurt you. If he asks why you got the vet out, just tell him that you realized she was overdue for her annual checkup anyway, so you figured you'd kill two birds with one stone. You don't have to tell him BEFORE you get the vet out. That just makes you seem needy and immature and lacking confidence.


But still, it's a problem I'd rather not have seeing how he is the main care giver to Fly. He is the one who is there 24/7. I don't want to create any conflict.

Another way to see it is, if I was to talk with any of you guys and you spent over an hour giving me suggestions and advice, things to try out first before calling out vet. Then I don't try them out and just go ahead calling a vet out, that's basically me ignoring your advice and I'm sure you guys would feel a bit upset because I didn't take your advice.


----------



## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> What am I doing wrong? Well when Fly wants to pin her ears back when I am doing up the cinch, I need to step it up and make myself even bigger and larger to tell her to knock it off and knock it off for good. Obviously I haven't laid down my correction hard enough.
> 
> One thing that I do know that stops her dead in her tracks (because it has worked marvellously) is like you suggested, grunt when I say something to her with lots of force pushed from my chest. So I usually say QUIT or QUIT IT and with a lot of force from my chest. It works everytime.
> 
> You're making it sound like I'm having to whack her daily. No. I've maybe whacked her maybe 4 times in the past 3 months and it was all from the same thing. I USED to have to whack her daily. Remember when I first arrived at the barn and she would have her days where she just wouldn't stand for me and would want to constantly swing her hind into me? Well she stopped that long long ago. She never swings her hind end into me ever anymore. I used to have to whack her on the butt just to get her to move her butt over but now I can just touch her hind or cluck and she moves over everytime. Very rare do I have to ask twice.


I haven't had to whack my horse three times in nine years. You AINT getting it.


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## Hoofpic

I don't know if I'm going to be able to sleep tonight, I'm this scared about tomorrow.


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## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic said:


> But still, it's a problem I'd rather not have seeing how he is the main care giver to Fly. He is the one who is there 24/7. I don't want to create any conflict.
> 
> Another way to see it is, if I was to talk with any of you guys and you spent over an hour giving me suggestions and advice, things to try out first before calling out vet. Then I don't try them out and just go ahead calling a vet out, that's basically me ignoring your advice and I'm sure you guys would feel a bit upset because I didn't take your advice.


We have done exactly that..... giving advice and it is ignored or poo-pood.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> We have done exactly that..... giving advice and it is ignored or poo-pood.


No it's not. Just because I don't follow each and every piece of advice on here, doesn't mean that I'm ignoring the advice given. I am a bit insulted that you feel that way.


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## sarahfromsc

Pul-lease.


----------



## Hoofpic

sarahfromsc said:


> Pul-lease.


Then you can think that.


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## sarahfromsc

And I do.


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## Rainaisabelle

Well then


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> But still, it's a problem I'd rather not have seeing how he is the main care giver to Fly. He is the one who is there 24/7. I don't want to create any conflict.
> 
> Another way to see it is, if I was to talk with any of you guys and you spent over an hour giving me suggestions and advice, things to try out first before calling out vet. Then I don't try them out and just go ahead calling a vet out, that's basically me ignoring your advice and I'm sure you guys would feel a bit upset because I didn't take your advice.


As a barn owner I love it when boarders take things into their own hands. That way I don't have to hear, "but you said...."


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## PoptartShop

Okay. 

Basically, Fly is your horse. 100%. You do as you please with her. With getting a vet out. Doesn't mean you are ignoring the BO's advice. Stop worrying about him. He will be fine. He can't get mad at you for getting a vet out...HOLY cow, it's common knowledge to have a vet out. One of the girls at my barn calls her vet all the time if something tiny is wrong...she's just overly concerned! Nobody is ''mad' that the vet comes out. 
The BO isn't paying the vet bill. Let us know how it goes tomorrow. Until then, don't focus on the BO focus on Fly.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I don't know if I'm going to be able to sleep tonight, I'm this scared about tomorrow.


You'll both be fine. It's just a check up. You probably won't even need many vaccinations because most are for vector borne diseases. Tetanus & rabies are needed though.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> As a barn owner I love it when boarders take things into their own hands. That way I don't have to hear, "but you said...."


I wasn't going to go to him yesterday, (because afterall, there are enough boarders who go to him for advice all the time) and I don't want to put more onto his plate especially with him just having got home from the hospital 2 weeks ago and he is still not 100% yet. 

Some of my friends go to him for everything and I feel it's just too much (just my opinion).

But when I went to him yesterday, it wasn't to get advice on Fly being girthy, but to ask which vets in the area he recommended and he told me.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> You'll both be fine. It's just a check up. You probably won't even need many vaccinations because most are for vector borne diseases. Tetanus & rabies are needed though.


I'm not too concerned about the checkup, I'm more worried about the hind left leg and her being girthy. Worse comes to worst, I give her time off or I get my chiro out right after. I will ask the vet what to do.

Now when I think of it, I'm almost certain that tetanus and rabies are two more shots that the BO gives to all the horses. My friend would know, I can ask her right now.


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## egrogan

Don't you have a medical record file for Fly? My vet has an online portal I can log into for records, but you absolutely should have a file that you can easily access which documents her vaccinations, vet treatments, typical vitals, etc. In addition to the electronic records I keep, the barn keeps copies in the hard copy binder which contains similar info for all horses there.

If something happened to her when you aren't around, would anyone know her baseline heart rate, temp, etc.? What if they needed to know when her last tetanus was given? 

If you need an example to model your vet file, see this one: https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=ee9b5ddf-2be3-4712-b228-346d375e0569

General guidance on how to maintain this type of info:


Maintaining Horse Health Records: Keep Notes on Everything! | TheHorse.com


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Okay.
> 
> Basically, Fly is your horse. 100%. You do as you please with her. With getting a vet out. Doesn't mean you are ignoring the BO's advice. Stop worrying about him. He will be fine. He can't get mad at you for getting a vet out...HOLY cow, it's common knowledge to have a vet out. One of the girls at my barn calls her vet all the time if something tiny is wrong...she's just overly concerned! Nobody is ''mad' that the vet comes out.
> The BO isn't paying the vet bill. Let us know how it goes tomorrow. Until then, don't focus on the BO focus on Fly.


Thanks, I will do that. I feel a lot better now knowing the vet will be out tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Don't you have a medical record file for Fly? My vet has an online portal I can log into for records, but you absolutely should have a file that you can easily access which documents her vaccinations, vet treatments, typical vitals, etc. In addition to the electronic records I keep, the barn keeps copies in the hard copy binder which contains similar info for all horses there.
> 
> If something happened to her when you aren't around, would anyone know her baseline heart rate, temp, etc.? What if they needed to know when her last tetanus was given?
> 
> If you need an example to model your vet file, see this one: https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=ee9b5ddf-2be3-4712-b228-346d375e0569
> 
> General guidance on how to maintain this type of info:
> 
> 
> Maintaining Horse Health Records: Keep Notes on Everything! | TheHorse.com


Fly's previous vet (while at the old barn) has this. I can try contacting them in the morning to send me the info and pass onto the new vet tomorrow for their records.


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## NavigatorsMom

Keeping up your own medical records on your horse is something that all good horsemen should do. It's something even kids in Pony Club are expected to do - even if they don't own the horse! 

You could start a spreadsheet, or even just a word document to keep track of Fly's veterinarian visits, as well as visits from chiro, masseuse, and farrier. It's good to have all of that information in one place. You could keep a digital copy at home on your computer and a hard copy at the barn, should someone there need to care for her.

Keeping records of your horse is just the responsible thing to do. I don't think you necessarily need to contact the old vet for records, but you can if you want. Starting from your appointment tomorrow though, you should start keeping an up to date record book for Fly.


----------



## Hoofpic

NavigatorsMom said:


> Keeping up your own medical records on your horse is something that all good horsemen should do. It's something even kids in Pony Club are expected to do - even if they don't own the horse!
> 
> You could start a spreadsheet, or even just a word document to keep track of Fly's veterinarian visits, as well as visits from chiro, masseuse, and farrier. It's good to have all of that information in one place. You could keep a digital copy at home on your computer and a hard copy at the barn, should someone there need to care for her.
> 
> Keeping records of your horse is just the responsible thing to do. I don't think you necessarily need to contact the old vet for records, but you can if you want. Starting from your appointment tomorrow though, you should start keeping an up to date record book for Fly.


I'm still going to get the files from the previous vet so I can track all the medical history from the previous barn. You make a great point, track everything in a spreadsheet. Each time she has someone come out to work on her, make note of it, date, time and whom and what was done, results etc.


----------



## greentree

Why can you not use the same vet?


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Why can you not use the same vet?


The travel fee. The new vet is still one of the most highly regarded in the city and is one of the largest in Alberta, they do surgeries, MRI's, all in house, etc. I am already going to pay $92 for today's travel fee and that's only 25km. The travel fee for the old vet would be $150 and up seeing how it costed me $75 when I was at the old barn and that was only about half the distance from where I am now to that clinic.

The good news about where I am right now is that I have a choice of about 3 or 4 vet centres around us, and my BO said they are all good, it's up to me who I would like to call. The one who I booked with for coming out today is actually the closest in distance and is the most complete vet centre in terms of what they do and specialize in, but their travel fee works out to be about the same as the other vets around.


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## jaydee

I'm not sure if hoofpic is on a DIY or full board agreement where he is but when we kept horses on a full board agreement we were the one's that kept and maintained all of the horse's health files and records not the owners. 
If an owner wanted to query something they would come to us and ask to see the records and if they moved or sold the horse those records were passed on to the next owner. 
Owners always knew when their horses were getting wormed or vaccinated etc because they'd get the invoice to pay for those extras 


Now - Giving someone advice is a good thing but nagging and badgering someone like you're trying to bash YOUR opinions into their head with a sledgehammer isn't.
Stop behaving like the worst ever helicopter parents!!!


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## PoptartShop

The thing is, if someone wants to take your advice they will, if not then they have to realize the advice wasn't taken & that's their issue in the long run.

If they don't realize that, they'll keep asking everyone the same questions, therefore everyone is found repeating themselves. Which can be frustrating...for everyone. No nagging here, just giving advice- take it or leave it that's what I always say. LOL.

Anywho, Hoofpic let us know how the vet visit goes! Then you can get to the bottom of everything!


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I'm not sure if hoofpic is on a DIY or full board agreement where he is but when we kept horses on a full board agreement we were the one's that kept and maintained all of the horse's health files and records not the owners.
> If an owner wanted to query something they would come to us and ask to see the records and if they moved or sold the horse those records were passed on to the next owner.
> Owners always knew when their horses were getting wormed or vaccinated etc because they'd get the invoice to pay for those extras
> 
> 
> Now - Giving someone advice is a good thing but nagging and badgering someone like you're trying to bash YOUR opinions into their head with a sledgehammer isn't.
> Stop behaving like the worst ever helicopter parents!!!


Thanks JayDee:smile:

I'm on a 90% full care barn.


----------



## jaydee

PoptartShop said:


> therefore everyone is found repeating themselves. Which can be frustrating...for everyone. No nagging here, just giving advice- *take it or leave it *that's what I always say. LOL.


 And that there is the best advice of all
Give your opinions on something and then let the OP (in this case Hoofpic) decide whether or not he agrees or finds it useful. No need to repeat yourself because once its been posted its going to stay there
Just remember - you are all here on this thread by choice no one is forcing you to participate.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> The thing is, if someone wants to take your advice they will, if not then they have to realize the advice wasn't taken & that's their issue in the long run.
> 
> If they don't realize that, they'll keep asking everyone the same questions, therefore everyone is found repeating themselves. Which can be frustrating...for everyone. No nagging here, just giving advice- take it or leave it that's what I always say. LOL.
> 
> Anywho, Hoofpic let us know how the vet visit goes! Then you can get to the bottom of everything!


I just don't like it when people think that I am ignoring advice when I don't follow each and every bit of advice given on here. 

I am heading to the barn shortly, I'm scared to death to be honest with you. Fingers crossed!!!!!!!


----------



## sarahfromsc

I have been on full board before, but I picked what MY horse would be vaccinated for, and the vet gave ME a copy of the bill/vaccines given. I relied in the BO to set the schedule, period. I was in charge and knew everything else.

No different than kids. I knew WHAT my kids were vaccinated for. She is YOUR horse, you should have a record of every vet visit, every trim, every chiro, every massage, in short EVERYTHING.

Helicopter parent? When it comes to vaccines for any thing that I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR, hell yes I am.


----------



## Hoofpic

- vet said that Fly looks really good and healthy.
- she was putting pressure and digging her fingers into where the cinch goes under her belly and then went to feel along her belly and Fly bit the vet on the butt
- vet says that this still very well could be behavourial and it's the matter of eliminating the causes.
- she says that she highly doubts its ulcers but will consider it after we eliminiate if this is just Fly being sore and needing time off or if she is just being a brat.

- her assistant trotted Fly with her and the vet said that her trot form looks really good. Didn't see any short striding of the hind left leg. She said that Fly has a nice trot and she moves nicely and healthy.
- She gave me about 20 days worth of Pervicox to give Fly. We gave her half a tablet today and I have to give her 1/4 of a tablet for the next 9 days.

She said that I could still ride Fly during this 10 days but I would rather not. I say I should give her the time off. Because the vet said that if in these 10 days, this behaviour goes away, then we know its soreness and Fly just needed time off. IF Fly even gets better and doesn't react as much in the next 10 days, then it's still a sign that she was just sore and needed time off. If this is the case, then I could continue giving her more of the Pervicox past the 10 days and perhaps more time off. But I will have to gauge how she is over the next 10 days.

I say that I go 10 days without riding her, don't even saddle her up, then try to cinch her up on the 11th day and see what reaction I get.

The vet said that she could just have a minor upset stomach and this drug would help it if thats the case. It will even help with any soreness or inflammation in her front chest and girthy area.

The reason she didnt give me bute is because she felt Fly didn't need it. She said that the Pervicox will have a lot less side effects and is safer to give for longer periods of time. Also, IF Fly just has an upset stomach, then the Pervicox will be a lot less straining than bute on her gut.

She had some amazing things to say about this Pervicox drug and that she has given it to other horses in much worse shape than Fly and they have cured them.

It was a bit busy at the barn. My BO knew that the vet was out, I talked to him and my trainerk nows as well (but she doesn't know what for). My friend was out and said that I don't need annual checkups and asked me how old Fly is, and said that especially seeing how Fly is only 5.5, there should be no need to have a vet out for check ups. Unless you see something wrong or a need for one to come out, she said she doesn't see a point in them. Just her opinion.

So even the days that I don't plan on doing anything with Fly, I will stil have to go to the barn as I need to give her, her medication for the next 9 days. She said to start with 10 days and she gave me extra just in case I need to go longer.

The vet said that after 10 days, follow up with her and if I don't notice any difference at all iun Fly, then obviously it's either behavourial or it's something else and then we could perhaps look into ulcers. But the thing is, the bottle of medication for ulcers is $190cdn and thats the generic kind lasting 50 days. $190! WOW. I'm really hoping that I don't need to buy this.

Crossing my fingers that Fly will feel better in the 10 days. I think I'm better off just getting the chiro out, and let me think about it, I might have the chiro out before the 10 days or I might wait for the 10 days to pass. 

Now, everyone at the barn is going to be freaking out asking why I'm not riding Fly. Even though the vet said that I could still ride her in the 10 days, I don't think its a good idea. Give her time off and with the meds, she how she feels in 10 days. If I am riding her in the meantime, that's just going to give inaccurate results and could delay any healing.

The vet said that having the chiro would still be beneficial but it's up to me if I want to wait for the 10 days to pass first to eliminate and narrow down the causes.

She said that if it is behavourial then Fly needs to be scoulded. She really liked Fly but she knew that Fly is the type of horse who doesn't shy back and she will tell you what's on her mind.


----------



## Hoofpic

On further note, the vet said that something like this is very hard to tell if it's behavourial or not, so we first need to start narrowing down the causes.

She said that it could be from Fly just not liking being cinched up and she will know when that cinch is about to be done up and she is just being opinionated about it. She said if this is the case, then I will need to go back and work with Fly so that she sees being cinched up as a much more positive experience and make her see the whole thing as something that she will no longer hate.


----------



## greentree

If she were short stridi g because the saddle was uncomfortable, then no, it would not show on a trot out. 

You should be glad that the vet did not have a rasp in her hand....she might have hit YOU with it!


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## Rainaisabelle

There are alternative ulcer treatments.


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

On my phone so I'm not sure how to use the like button on posts with the mobile version of the forum, but wanted to say I "like" the posts from @greentree and @Rainaisabelle.


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## EliRose

Pls don't let your horse bite the vet.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> If she were short stridi g because the saddle was uncomfortable, then no, it would not show on a trot out.
> 
> You should be glad that the vet did not have a rasp in her hand....she might have hit YOU with it!





EliRose said:


> Pls don't let your horse bite the vet.


I don't know what's happened to Fly. First the fitter, now the vet.


----------



## EliRose

No, Hoofpic. You need to make for d sure you're mare can't snake around and bite. Hold the dang lead rope and catch her BEFORE she puts her teeth on anyone. It is 100% your fault she did. If she's biting, *hold her lead rope in your hands*. No excuses.


----------



## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> No, Hoofpic. You need to make for d sure you're mare can't snake around and bite. Hold the dang lead rope and catch her BEFORE she puts her teeth on anyone. It is 100% your fault she did. If she's biting, *hold her lead rope in your hands*. No excuses.


But I was standing 10ft from the vet and her assistant. I never want to get in the way. The vet's assistant stood right by Fly while she was tied.


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## EliRose

Don't leave her tied then. Hold your own horse if you know she's been nasty.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I don't know what's happened to Fly. First the fitter, now the vet.


SHE IS NOT HAPPY. She is not being trained. There is NO leader. Just like the little kids whose parents don't correct them, and they wind up in alternative schools and juvenile detention centers.


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## PoptartShop

You wouldn't be in the way of the vet if you're in front of Fly holding her head/the lead. Definitely can't let her be disrespectful.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> SHE IS NOT HAPPY. She is not being trained. There is NO leader. Just like the little kids whose parents don't correct them, and they wind up in alternative schools and juvenile detention centers.


I think that you have said that enough.

There is a leader, she is being trained, she is not unhappy. She is just going through a bad spell right now.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> You wouldn't be in the way of the vet if you're in front of Fly holding her head/the lead. Definitely can't let her be disrespectful.


But her assistant was there. If the vet was there by herself, then I would have had no problem standing next to Fly, but I didn't want to be in their way especially when her assistants job was to help her out.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

PoptartShop said:


> You wouldn't be in the way of the vet if you're in front of Fly holding her head/the lead. Definitely can't let her be disrespectful.


^^This.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

The vet is relying on YOU to have control of your horse. Don't just 'stand 10 feet away' and leave them to be bitten.

I always hold Sky, or an assistant holds Sky. But I'm right up their butts incase they need me and also so I know what is going on. If Sky so much as takes a step into their space he is corrected BUT usually he doesn't because he KNOWS that it isn't his place to be ornery when he is being helped.

Thanks to training.

Not bullying.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

Hoofpic said:


> I think that you have said that enough.
> 
> There is a leader, she is being trained, she is not unhappy. She is just going through a bad spell right now.



??????? A bad spell?

She is a HORSE. They are as forthcoming as they come. If they're unhappy, they bite. A happy horse doesn't bite.

It is up to you and your checkbook to figure out why she isn't happy.


----------



## 3rdTimestheCharm

Hoofpic said:


> But her assistant was there. If the vet was there by herself, then I would have had no problem standing next to Fly, but I didn't want to be in their way especially when her assistants job was to help her out.


Yes, but you know that Fly is disrespectful with new people. 

Next time you have someone working on Fly, even if there is an assistant there, you need to tell them that Fly has had issues (biting) with strangers in the past, so you need to hold her and correct her, if necessary. 

*They will understand and also appreciate that you are working to make Fly a better horse, and, in turn, keeping them safer.*


----------



## Hoofpic

Skyseternalangel said:


> ??????? A bad spell?
> 
> She is a HORSE. They are as forthcoming as they come. If they're unhappy, they bite. A happy horse doesn't bite.
> 
> *It is up to you and your checkbook to figure out why she isn't happy.*


And I am doing that. Debating on whether I should have my chiro out now or after 10 days.


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## greentree

What would be the difference between you riding her during her treatment skewing the results, and having the chiropractor out, skewing the results?


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> And I am doing that. Debating on whether I should have my chiro out now or after 10 days.


I would wait. If you do more than one treatment at a time how will you know which one worked? 10 days isn't long.


----------



## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> Yes, but you know that Fly is disrespectful with new people.
> 
> Next time you have someone working on Fly, even if there is an assistant there, you need to tell them that Fly has had issues (biting) with strangers in the past, so you need to hold her and correct her, if necessary.
> 
> *They will understand and also appreciate that you are working to make Fly a better horse, and, in turn, keeping them safer.*


You are right, I should have done that yesterday. I will be sure to do it next time. Not trying to make excuses but I was so focused on taking notes that I think it over wrote my mind for standing next to Fly.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Wasn't going to say anything, but I feel I need to get this off my chest.

Hoofpic, do you really not get why we are frustrated with you for LETTING Fly bite the vet and the saddle fitter? Do you really believe that "staying out of their way" is more important than keeping them safe? How would you feel if you were helping someone and you got hurt by something completely preventable by that person just because they "didn't want to get in your way"? I bet you'd be pretty upset and wouldn't want to help that person again because you might get hurt again. You're going to burn more bridges with your way of thinking than you would if you actually got in their way (p.s.- you won't be in their way...trust me). IMO, your vet was way nicer to you than I would have been.

I have known horses that can be seen by the vet or farrier while standing tied. Heck, I have a friend who once ground tied her gelding and stood back while not one, but TWO farriers worked on his feet and Tam just stood there half asleep. I have pics to prove it happened. Fly, unfortunately is NOT one of those horses. You need to recognize that she is not nearly as well-trained as you think she is, before someone gets seriously injured. I can do anything to my gelding without a halter or lead rope on him. This includes picking up his feet and saddling him. BUT, I realize that he's not that way for everyone, especially farriers (not 100% sure, but fairly certain he was beaten with farrier tools before I bought him, as that's what he reacts negatively to the most). This means that I have to be present, accounted for, and extra vigilant when we have the farrier out. My BO once offered to hold Aires for me for the farrier because I had to work. I instead chose to reschedule my farrier appointment so that I could be there and deal with any misbehavior myself. I wasn't about to let anyone else deal with my problem child.

Until you step up and don't expect everyone else to train your horse just because you think she's good with you, you're going to continue having issues and continue to be "baffled" by them. When you're ready to acknowledge that what you're doing isn't working and something needs to change drastically, we'll be here to offer advice. Until that time, no one can really help you and we'll just end up spinning our proverbial tires in the mud and keep getting frustrated.

So, until such time as you do some serious soul searching and make some changes...peace out, dude.


----------



## jaydee

sarahfromsc said:


> I have been on full board before, but I picked what MY horse would be vaccinated for, and the vet gave ME a copy of the bill/vaccines given. I relied in the BO to set the schedule, period. I was in charge and knew everything else.
> 
> No different than kids. I knew WHAT my kids were vaccinated for. She is YOUR horse, you should have a record of every vet visit, every trim, every chiro, every massage, in short EVERYTHING.
> 
> Helicopter parent? When it comes to vaccines for any thing that I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR, hell yes I am.


 The 'helicopter parent' comment wasn't in reference to anything being said about vaccinations but about the way some of you seem to feel an overwhelming need to micro-manage hoofpic's life.


----------



## PoptartShop

We're trying to help him, and not have him get someone seriously injured by his horse biting...the vet was definitely a lot nicer about it.
& so what if the vet's assistant was there? It's YOUR horse, YOUR job to reprimand her if needed! The vet isn't there to reprimand your horse. The bite could've been prevented, that's all...

Bottom line: Don't ALLOW her to even get the chance to bite someone!


----------



## greentree

Allow me to try to explain this with a little anthropromorphization...

Hoofpic, do you remember when you got that job where the boss expected you to already KNOW everything, and you were SO uncomfortable? 

I am willing to bet that you did not jump out of bed ans gleefully run to work every morning, because you were goi g to face that confusion once more.

That is how Fly feels. Everytime you put the saddle on her, she gets no clear direction, and, although she does not know why, she dreads facing that confusion every time she gets handled. Her way to deal with it is to tell you, in gradually escalating behavior, how she feels.

I have tried my best to get this across. I feel bad for you, and for the horse. You love her, and are trying to do the best you can for her, JUST like you felt you were doing on that job, but the boss did not understand.

Sorry. I tried.


----------



## bsms

Hoofpic said:


> I don't know what's happened to Fly. First the fitter, now the vet.


Boundaries. Enforced with more than just a stern look or grunt.


----------



## Hoofpic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Wasn't going to say anything, but I feel I need to get this off my chest.
> 
> Hoofpic, do you really not get why we are frustrated with you for LETTING Fly bite the vet and the saddle fitter? Do you really believe that "staying out of their way" is more important than keeping them safe? How would you feel if you were helping someone and you got hurt by something completely preventable by that person just because they "didn't want to get in your way"? I bet you'd be pretty upset and wouldn't want to help that person again because you might get hurt again. You're going to burn more bridges with your way of thinking than you would if you actually got in their way (p.s.- you won't be in their way...trust me). IMO, your vet was way nicer to you than I would have been.
> 
> I have known horses that can be seen by the vet or farrier while standing tied. Heck, I have a friend who once ground tied her gelding and stood back while not one, but TWO farriers worked on his feet and Tam just stood there half asleep. I have pics to prove it happened. Fly, unfortunately is NOT one of those horses. You need to recognize that she is not nearly as well-trained as you think she is, before someone gets seriously injured. I can do anything to my gelding without a halter or lead rope on him. This includes picking up his feet and saddling him. BUT, I realize that he's not that way for everyone, especially farriers (not 100% sure, but fairly certain he was beaten with farrier tools before I bought him, as that's what he reacts negatively to the most). This means that I have to be present, accounted for, and extra vigilant when we have the farrier out. My BO once offered to hold Aires for me for the farrier because I had to work. I instead chose to reschedule my farrier appointment so that I could be there and deal with any misbehavior myself. I wasn't about to let anyone else deal with my problem child.
> 
> Until you step up and don't expect everyone else to train your horse just because you think she's good with you, you're going to continue having issues and continue to be "baffled" by them. When you're ready to acknowledge that what you're doing isn't working and something needs to change drastically, we'll be here to offer advice. Until that time, no one can really help you and we'll just end up spinning our proverbial tires in the mud and keep getting frustrated.
> 
> So, until such time as you do some serious soul searching and make some changes...peace out, dude.


I know what I need to do, it was my fault for not stepping next to Fly yesterday. I should have put the notes aside and stood next to her.

I will say that I do stand next to Fly when she gets trimmed. If I need to correct her, I am right there. I need to do the same with everyone else.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> We're trying to help him, and not have him get someone seriously injured by his horse biting...the vet was definitely a lot nicer about it.
> & so what if the vet's assistant was there? It's YOUR horse, YOUR job to reprimand her if needed! The vet isn't there to reprimand your horse. The bite could've been prevented, that's all...
> 
> Bottom line: Don't ALLOW her to even get the chance to bite someone!


I know and I appreciate the help. I know that I had to be right next to Fly's side especially with me knowing she just bit the fitter.

I hope my vet is not reluctant to come out again in the future when needed. She said that she wasn't upset that she got bit and that she's seen far worse horse behaviour, but I told her that I am going to work with Fly in getting her better manners around any human being, no matter who that person is.

If I end up having my chiro out in the next couple weeks, you will be sure that I will be standing right next to Fly with my hand right up by the snap and I won't allow her to bite. I am going to put a stop to this.


----------



## Prairie

Hoofpic said:


> If I end up having my chiro out in the next couple weeks, you will be sure that I will be standing right next to Fly with my hand right up by the snap and I won't allow her to bite. I am going to put a stop to this.



And this is this whole issue! You don't have the "eye" nor the experience to prevent her from misbehaving BEFORE she acts up! This is one of the reasons why a newbie should never buy a green horse. A knowledgeable handler doesn't "put a stop to this" simply because that handler never lets the problem develop in the first place. You are not a "strong leader" and she has no respect for you.


----------



## Hoofpic

Whatever Prairie. I am still learning and am confident that I can stop Fly before she tries to bite.


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## sarahfromsc

jaydee said:


> The 'helicopter parent' comment wasn't in reference to anything being said about vaccinations but about the way some of you seem to feel an overwhelming need to micro-manage hoofpic's life.


I comprehended that very clearly. My point was that maybe hoofpic needs to be more helicopter parent like.


----------



## Prairie

Whatever hoopic, so why haven't you stopped her from biting if you are so skilled?


----------



## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Whatever hoopic, so why haven't you stopped her from biting if you are so skilled?


I never said I was "so skilled" please stop exaggerating.


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## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> I know and I appreciate the help. I know that I had to be right next to Fly's side especially with me knowing she just bit the fitter.


Yes, in hindsight you might have seen this coming. However, you also might have thought it was not something that was going to happen again, and been a little casual about it. It can be difficult to know how your horse will respond to being handled by other people, until you see how they do for a time or two. 

One farrier was frustrated with me for "not working with my horse" between visits even though I was working with her hooves every day and she was docile, letting me hammer on her hooves and standing perfectly. For him, she wouldn't. So it took me a bit of time to figure out how to get her to behave for him too. 

My other mare came to me with a needle phobia. Unfortunately, just as it was improving a new vet came and stuck her 7 times trying to draw blood. The next time we had a horse in a panic, running in circles to get away. Even though I worked on getting my mare used to needles from me, the smell of the vet would set her off. Thankfully, a new vet came and was very patient, very skilled, and we taught my horse together that vets are not evil torturers. 

You need to discover what level of correction will work for Fly, where she hears and understands you are displeased. Now that you know how she might react, you can teach her that you expect her to behave for other people and not just yourself. 

Some vets don't trust owners and want to handle horses with an assistant instead. I've run into this a couple of times. Unfortunately, their methods sometimes will work a horse up instead of helping, and the horse can become more difficult to handle. I've had vets that insisted they do the handling, and the horse did not respond well. Finally they let me handle the horse and things went much better, and after that they let me be involved. 

If they insist and still can't handle the horse, I don't feel upset if they have issues. Not that I want anyone to get hurt, but someone who is going to use invasive and frightening techniques on horses needs to be able to have some basic skills and to pay attention. They should expect horses might try to bite or kick them and be prepared. I'm prepared for this from every strange horse I handle, and I'm not usually sticking needles into them or probing sore muscles.

So I lay partial blame on the vet if she was handling a horse and even had an assistant, and yet was not being safe enough to avoid getting bitten.


----------



## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Yes, in hindsight you might have seen this coming. However, you also might have thought it was not something that was going to happen again, and been a little casual about it. It can be difficult to know how your horse will respond to being handled by other people, until you see how they do for a time or two.


I agree. But now, I need to be safe than sorry.



> One farrier was frustrated with me for "not working with my horse" between visits even though I was working with her hooves every day and she was docile, letting me hammer on her hooves and standing perfectly. For him, she wouldn't. So it took me a bit of time to figure out how to get her to behave for him too.
> 
> My other mare came to me with a needle phobia. Unfortunately, just as it was improving a new vet came and stuck her 7 times trying to draw blood. The next time we had a horse in a panic, running in circles to get away. Even though I worked on getting my mare used to needles from me, the smell of the vet would set her off. Thankfully, a new vet came and was very patient, very skilled, and we taught my horse together that vets are not evil torturers.


Oh interesting, so in your case, the first vet had your mare just react differently altogether than the new one.



> You need to discover what level of correction will work for Fly, where she hears and understands you are displeased. Now that you know how she might react, you can teach her that you expect her to behave for other people and not just yourself.


I know that if I say a word with a GRUNT deep from my chest, it will stop her dead in her tracks everytime.



> Some vets don't trust owners and want to handle horses with an assistant instead. I've run into this a couple of times. Unfortunately, their methods sometimes will work a horse up instead of helping, and the horse can become more difficult to handle. I've had vets that insisted they do the handling, and the horse did not respond well. Finally they let me handle the horse and things went much better, and after that they let me be involved.
> 
> If they insist and still can't handle the horse, I don't feel upset if they have issues. Not that I want anyone to get hurt, but someone who is going to use invasive and frightening techniques on horses needs to be able to have some basic skills and to pay attention. They should expect horses might try to bite or kick them and be prepared. I'm prepared for this from every strange horse I handle, and I'm not usually sticking needles into them or probing sore muscles.
> 
> So I lay partial blame on the vet if she was handling a horse and even had an assistant, and yet was not being safe enough to avoid getting bitten.


That is true, some just trust their assistant. Also, this was the first time that I met this vet as well. I know my previous vet preferred for us to just stand back. 

Yesterday the vet said it was her fault because she had her hip turned towards Fly and said that she should have known better to step away when she started feeling out Fly, but I said it was my fault, not hers.


----------



## Hoofpic

My chiro never returns my calls, ever. Would you find another or keep trying to call her?

I know she is busy, but I wonder if she wants my business.

Also, I just gave Fly her medication for today. I just gave it to her in the field, but she spit it out so I take it so I had to put the 1/4 tablet inside a stud muffin, then put it in a feed tray and gave it to her. She ate it fine, didnt spit anything out.

Since I will be giving her meds for the next 8 days maybe more, I dont want her to think that she gets a treat everytime Im out there.

Would you guys continue to just give her the 1/4 tablet stuffed inside a treat since she wont take the pill by itself?

Ill probably stuff it inside a piece of carrot. Dont wanna be giving her stud muffins everyday.


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## greentree

Give her the stud muffin. Or grind the pill, bring her in, and give her a bit of oats or sweet feed.


----------



## tinaev

My farrier never returns phone calls and is a frequent no show to our appointments. It's a source of never ending frustration to me. I am always on time for our appointments, I pay in cash, I work around his schedule and let him bring his son to the appointment. Yet still I can't get a call or a text back?! 

Last year he dropped off the face of the Earth for six months and left me in a horrible spot. When I was finally able to get in touch with him I nicely confronted him about his business behavior and found out he is a high functioning autistic and has learning disabilities. While that is not an excuse I do think it explains some of the behavior, he simply doesn't think like I do. I changed how I interact with him (instead of calling I use Facebook messenger) and we've been more successful this year.

Why do I put up with all of it though? In short, he's the horse whisperer. My cranky, arthritic, old horses relax in his presence and trims are not stressful or painful for them. The farrier is very understanding of the horses limitations and gives them breaks and alters how he performs trimming to keep them comfortable. 

All of that is why I will continue to use him and deal with the frustrations. It's worth it for the horses. The question you have to ask yourself is, is this specific chiropractor doing something so extraordinary for Fly that it is worth it to you to deal with the frustrations? If you aren't sure there'd be no harm in finding someone else and seeing how it goes before you decide.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Give her the stud muffin. Or grind the pill, bring her in, and give her a bit of oats or sweet feed.


Okay thanks.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> My farrier never returns phone calls and is a frequent no show to our appointments. It's a source of never ending frustration to me. I am always on time for our appointments, I pay in cash, I work around his schedule and let him bring his son to the appointment. Yet still I can't get a call or a text back?!
> 
> Last year he dropped off the face of the Earth for six months and left me in a horrible spot. When I was finally able to get in touch with him I nicely confronted him about his business behavior and found out he is a high functioning autistic and has learning disabilities. While that is not an excuse I do think it explains some of the behavior, he simply doesn't think like I do. I changed how I interact with him (instead of calling I use Facebook messenger) and we've been more successful this year.
> 
> Why do I put up with all of it though? In short, he's the horse whisperer. My cranky, arthritic, old horses relax in his presence and trims are not stressful or painful for them. The farrier is very understanding of the horses limitations and gives them breaks and alters how he performs trimming to keep them comfortable.
> 
> All of that is why I will continue to use him and deal with the frustrations. It's worth it for the horses. The question you have to ask yourself is, is this specific chiropractor doing something so extraordinary for Fly that it is worth it to you to deal with the frustrations? If you aren't sure there'd be no harm in finding someone else and seeing how it goes before you decide.


Thanks. There is no shortage of chiros in my area, that's forsure. I've only had mine out twice so far (both last year), so I still don't know her all that well but I know that she healed up Fly amazingly. It just feels like a slap in the face when she never returns my calls, ever. This is one of my biggest pet peeves period. I am an extremely busy person and when the stuff hits the fan, sometimes it may take me a couple or few days to return calls or texts, but I always get back to everyone. 

I feel that I should move on and find someone else who wants my business.


----------



## Hoofpic

I have some really sad news. One of my friends at the barn wil be moving to another barn. She doesnt know yet on when but she said her decision was final. Shes just not happy being here and said its not the place that shes not happy with, but my trainer and the BOs helper.

This sucks.


----------



## Hoofpic

Well I have some good news. My friend had a really great lesson today with my BO's daughter (one of them) and she booked another for next week and she's very pleased. She said that she is considering staying if she can put the barn politics to the side.


----------



## Hoofpic

From the barn last night, a super moon, first time in 74 years according to my friend.


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## PoptartShop

Good shots!


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Good shots!


Thanks. It came up quite fast. Did you notice the shadow of the horse along the shelter in that one pic? lol

I really regret not setting up for a time lapse. This would have been amazing.


----------



## Hoofpic




----------



## Hoofpic

Im not very happy right now. I just saw my chiro and if I want to get my spine more straight and get the curvature in my neck back, im looking at forking out some considerable amounts of money and some money on some equipment to do excersizes 4-5 times a week. My spine leans to the left and my neck is straight (when it should have a curvature). 

He said after the 6 months of treatments, I should see about a 30% improvement. Just 30%!

I want to get my neck and spine addressed because I do feel it will not just help me riding but also looking out for my health. I dont want arthritis when I get older.

But the cost.....

He suggests 3 adjustments a week for 6 weeks, then 1 adjustment per week for the remaining 4.5 months. Then he will do a new ressessment test to gauge from there.

This plus me doing excersizes on my own time. Looking at two things I need, forgot the first but the second is a headband with weights. Total cost for all equipment is $125cdn.

He said he will discuss payment options with me when i go back next week to get adjusted and theres a few options i have. Pay each appt, quarterly or all at once. If you pay qeuarterly you get 5% off and if you pay all upfront you get 20% off.

$50 per adjustment but I get $20 back per adjustment from my insurance with a max amount of $600 per year, so each adjustment costs me $30 out of my pocket.

Ill have to do the math but im scared.


----------



## carshon

You just spent almost $900 on a new saddle. This does not sound all that expensive. Your health is most important- if the money is that bad - sell your new saddle or return it and shim your old one until your treatments are over.

Hoofpic - I am 46 yrs old. I have had 4 knee surgeries and am due for 1 more before a knee replacement. Bad knees have affected my hips and my spine. I do have Osteoarthritis - and it hurts! Take care of yourself now - you did not hesitate to buy a new saddle to make your horse feel better.

Time to invest in yourself.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Im not very happy right now. I just saw my chiro and if I want to get my spine more straight and get the curvature in my neck back, im looking at forking out some considerable amounts of money and some money on some equipment to do excersizes 4-5 times a week. My spine leans to the left and my neck is straight (when it should have a curvature).
> 
> He said after the 6 months of treatments, I should see about a 30% improvement. Just 30%!
> 
> I want to get my neck and spine addressed because I do feel it will not just help me riding but also looking out for my health. I dont want arthritis when I get older.
> 
> But the cost.....
> 
> He suggests 3 adjustments a week for 6 weeks, then 1 adjustment per week for the remaining 4.5 months. Then he will do a new ressessment test to gauge from there.
> 
> This plus me doing excersizes on my own time. Looking at two things I need, forgot the first but the second is a headband with weights. Total cost for all equipment is $125cdn.
> 
> He said he will discuss payment options with me when i go back next week to get adjusted and theres a few options i have. Pay each appt, quarterly or all at once. If you pay qeuarterly you get 5% off and if you pay all upfront you get 20% off.
> 
> $50 per adjustment but I get $20 back per adjustment from my insurance with a max amount of $600 per year, so each adjustment costs me $30 out of my pocket.
> 
> Ill have to do the math but im scared.


I suggest you see an orthopedic specialist to find out what is causing the curvature.
My neck is straight too, no big deal.


----------



## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> You just spent almost $900 on a new saddle. This does not sound all that expensive. Your health is most important- if the money is that bad - sell your new saddle or return it and shim your old one until your treatments are over.
> 
> Hoofpic - I am 46 yrs old. I have had 4 knee surgeries and am due for 1 more before a knee replacement. Bad knees have affected my hips and my spine. I do have Osteoarthritis - and it hurts! Take care of yourself now - you did not hesitate to buy a new saddle to make your horse feel better.
> 
> Time to invest in yourself.


I did the math and IMO it's too much. I just don't know if I need chiro 3 times a week for 6 weeks, then once a week for the next 4.5 months. And that is only with a possible 30% improvement IF I keep up with my daily excersizes that is. 

My chiro said I am in the early stages (siblia I think he called it?).

I will not sell the saddle (besides, it's well past 7 days now). I will do the chiro but just not 30 sessions like he suggested (that works out to be $1800). I will maybe do 1 time a week and do it for 6 months, that would make me more comfortable.

It's not just the cost being the biggest scare, but I don't think I would be alright having my joints and spine cracked 3 times a week.


----------



## jaydee

You're in Canada right? You have a healthcare similar to the UK don't you?
If I was you I'd go the route that you're covered for first and not to a private chiro.


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## Greenmeadows

Awesome pictures!


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im not very happy right now. I just saw my chiro and if I want to get my spine more straight and get the curvature in my neck back, im looking at forking out some considerable amounts of money and some money on some equipment to do excersizes 4-5 times a week. My spine leans to the left and my neck is straight (when it should have a curvature).
> 
> He said after the 6 months of treatments, I should see about a 30% improvement. Just 30%!
> 
> I want to get my neck and spine addressed because I do feel it will not just help me riding but also looking out for my health. I dont want arthritis when I get older.
> 
> But the cost.....
> 
> He suggests 3 adjustments a week for 6 weeks, then 1 adjustment per week for the remaining 4.5 months. Then he will do a new ressessment test to gauge from there.
> 
> This plus me doing excersizes on my own time. Looking at two things I need, forgot the first but the second is a headband with weights. Total cost for all equipment is $125cdn.
> 
> He said he will discuss payment options with me when i go back next week to get adjusted and theres a few options i have. Pay each appt, quarterly or all at once. If you pay qeuarterly you get 5% off and if you pay all upfront you get 20% off.
> 
> $50 per adjustment but I get $20 back per adjustment from my insurance with a max amount of $600 per year, so each adjustment costs me $30 out of my pocket.
> 
> Ill have to do the math but im scared.
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you see an orthopedic specialist to find out what is causing the curvature.
> My neck is straight too, no big deal.
Click to expand...

Thanks, never heard of an orthopedic specialist but it sounds worthwhile.

Is your spine right?


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, never heard of an orthopedic specialist but it sounds worthwhile.
> 
> Is your spine right?


It's a bone doctor.
Yes, my spine is fine.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> You're in Canada right? You have a healthcare similar to the UK don't you?
> If I was you I'd go the route that you're covered for first and not to a private chiro.


Yes I am in Alberta Canada.

Healthcare doesn't cover chiro or anything like this from what I know unless it's WCB (workers compensation) if you got injured on the workplace.

I just went to the meeting tonight and I signed myself up for 6 months (38 adjustments) on a monthly payment plan saving me 5%.

I need to check how much allowance I have left for this year chiro (I think it's about $400 left) and depending on when it renews, then I could possibly have more.

I am getting adjusted 2x a week (starting next week) for 9 weeks, then 1x a week for the remaining 20 weeks.

It's more than I'm willing to spend, but you know what? Anything involving my spine, I really need to address. NEED, I don't have a choice. Having a spine that isn't straight is not good, everything runs through your spine, your nerves, how you function, how your brain thinks. This is why my brain is not firing at 100% right now and I have one side that thinks stronger than the other.

So this is not just affecting me physically but mentally in my everyday life. I need to get it addressed.

I'm not happy that I am going to be even that much busier for the next 6+ months because I now have exersizes that i need to do 4-5 days a week and I picked up my headband tonight with weights in them and two (not sure what you call them), cushion like sponges that I lay down on and it will help stimulate and adjust my neck muscles.

I also need a wobble chair and they are selling me a portable one that I can just put on top of my home office chair and it's a lot cheaper than a full size one ($150 vs $600). So when they get stock of these next week, I will get one.

So $275 just one equipment to do my stuff at home, but I asked how long it will last and yes it's expensive but I will use it for many many years and I will think positively of the benefits that I will get from them and doing the homework given to me over the longer term. Even after the 6 months is up, say I only go in once a month for an adjustment, I can continue to do the excersizes at home and $275 over the longer terms is a helluva lot cheaper than another 6 month program.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I am in Alberta Canada.
> 
> Healthcare doesn't cover chiro or anything like this from what I know unless it's WCB (workers compensation) if you got injured on the workplace.
> 
> I just went to the meeting tonight and I signed myself up for 6 months (38 adjustments) on a monthly payment plan saving me 5%.
> 
> I need to check how much allowance I have left for this year chiro (I think it's about $400 left) and depending on when it renews, then I could possibly have more.
> 
> I am getting adjusted 2x a week (starting next week) for 9 weeks, then 1x a week for the remaining 20 weeks.
> 
> It's more than I'm willing to spend, but you know what? Anything involving my spine, I really need to address. NEED, I don't have a choice. Having a spine that isn't straight is not good, everything runs through your spine, your nerves, how you function, how your brain thinks. This is why my brain is not firing at 100% right now and I have one side that thinks stronger than the other.
> 
> So this is not just affecting me physically but mentally in my everyday life. I need to get it addressed.
> 
> I'm not happy that I am going to be even that much busier for the next 6+ months because I now have exersizes that i need to do 4-5 days a week and I picked up my headband tonight with weights in them and two (not sure what you call them), cushion like sponges that I lay down on and it will help stimulate and adjust my neck muscles.
> 
> I also need a wobble chair and they are selling me a portable one that I can just put on top of my home office chair and it's a lot cheaper than a full size one ($150 vs $600). So when they get stock of these next week, I will get one.
> 
> So $275 just one equipment to do my stuff at home, but I asked how long it will last and yes it's expensive but I will use it for many many years and I will think positively of the benefits that I will get from them and doing the homework given to me over the longer term. Even after the 6 months is up, say I only go in once a month for an adjustment, I can continue to do the excersizes at home and $275 over the longer terms is a helluva lot cheaper than another 6 month program.


An exercise ball makes a good wobble seat & isn't $150.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> An exercise ball makes a good wobble seat & isn't $150.


True but just as good? I do have one of those. I'm considering calling the office back in the morning and telling them that I will just use my ball instead. I hope he's just not trying to upsell me on the seat.

I don't think I mentioned this but I will be paying $303CDN for the next 6 months. Minus whatever I get back from my insurance (I need to double check tomorrow on exactly how much I have left, it's at least $400-500 left, possibly more depending on when my year renews), so that $303/ month will drop down to $250/month or so or lower.

I don't know, do you think it's worth this kind of money for a chiro for me? 

I went in tonight with the intention of only seeing him to get adjusted once a week for 6 months.

He's a real nice guy but something is telling me that I am potentially wasting money. I have already booked my appointments for the next 6 weeks but I am thinking about calling the office tomorrow and dropping everything down to 1 week. I'm just not sure about this whole 6 month program. I'm sure I can get better a lot by just doing my home work and those excersizes on my own and do I really need 38 adjustments over the next 6 months?

I'm sure the chiro will be upset if I change my mind now.


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## Hoofpic

I'm sorry, I can't do this. I don't know what it is but something is just rubbing me the wrong way. I love chiro, but I just don't think I need it 38 times in the next 6 months. Yes my spine is not straight but like my chiro said, it would take a good 2-3 years to get it where it needs to be (and that is with me doing these excersizes).

I am in the early stages of my problem and yes it's great that I am addressing it now, but I am not in any discomfort or pain right now where I am screaming for multiple adjustments in a week. I know my chiro said that he suggested 3x/week for 6 weeks, then 1x/week for the remaining 4.5 months because he wants to see me get better faster. And I know he is a real nice guy. But I also know that chiros are still salesman, it just depends how slimy they are. This one isn't, but he is still a salesman.

Why do you think they made me watch 10 and 20min testimonial videos when I went to get my general assessment tests done a couple weeks ago? Even though I have already been at this place 3 or 4 times prior to get my back adjusted.

I can't do this. I can't spend this much on chiro over the next 6 months. I question this 6 month program that he sells because I know what's going to happen after the 6 months is up. He sends me off to get xrays done, and then he gets me to renew for another 6 month program and it will go for years. I just can't do this.

I will still see him but I just think that I'm being upsold on a lot of things and I don't think this is money well spent for me. I mean this is not pocket change that we are talking about here. 

I am worried that he is going to be upset when I call the office tomorrow and tell his girls that I have changed my mind and instead of doing the 6 month program, I will just see him once a week for the time being and how long I keep that up for all depends on how I progress, so no gaurentee that I see him once a week for 6 months. 

I will make something up and just say that I found out that I didn't have nearly as much health allowance left for the remainder of this term as I thought. That is a reasonable reason.


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## natisha

You haven't had X-rays??!! What if you have a mild slipped disc or something that he's making worse?
38 sessions? Why not 37 or 39?
I agree you shouldn't do it & you don't need to make up any excuses. If you feel the need say you can't afford it & be done.

Go to a real doctor. Tell him your back hurts, get X-rays done at the same visit then see what they suggest. Tell them your chiro's plan too.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> You haven't had X-rays??!! What if you have a mild slipped disc or something that he's making worse?


I got X-rays done 2 weeks ago. My chiro first noticed that my spine wasn't straight when I was there last year for an adjustment. He said to come back for a full test done.



> 38 sessions? Why not 37 or 39?
> I agree you shouldn't do it & you don't need to make up any excuses. If you feel the need say you can't afford it & be done.


Well, I Can't tell if the chiro actually feels that I need 38 adjustments over the next 6 months or if he is trying to upsell me. Is it excessive? Perhaps. Like I said, I feel that with the excersizes that he has given me to do at home and the equipment that I've bought from him, I am confident I don't need 38 adjustments in the next 6 months. I feel even 1 per week is enough and I will lessen that at my own judgement, not his. Don't get me wrong adjustments are good but doing my homework consistently is just as important, if not more.

I could get adjusted 3 times a week and spent hundreds of dollars a month and not do my homework consistently, or go once a week and do my homework consistently and I feel I would see just as good benefits and recovery from the latter than the first. That and paying $125 upfront for my equipment is a lot cheaper than $300 a month for 6 months.

Spending $120 a month on adjustments for at least the next few months is a lot easier to swallow than $250-300 a month for 6 months. 

He is a great guy but I see where he is going with all of this. Once he gets me on the 6 month plan, then he does another assessment and I get more X-rays done, then he will get me to renew on another 6 month plan, and rinse and repeat. He is looking at the long term picture and that is not $1900 from me in the next 6 months but 3 or 4 times that. 

I just walked out yesterday saying to myself that something didn't feel right. Paying $300 a month for chiro for 6 months, that is 4.5 months board for Fly! That is a couple well spoken for clinics that I can not just audit but actually attend next year.



> Go to a real doctor. Tell him your back hurts, get X-rays done at the same visit then see what they suggest. Tell them your chiro's plan too.


My back doesn't hurt. It's just my spine isn't straight and unfortunately the spine affects everything.

I will look into the orthopedic specialist.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I'm sorry, I can't do this. I don't know what it is but something is just rubbing me the wrong way.


Some days I feel like you're the definition of Buyer's Remorse. You're very quick to pull the trigger on purchases that I would take _months_ to make a decision about. Why don't you slow down? Go see a specialist, get a second opinion, and stop committing to a huge amount of money for treatments that you're not sure about. You've been living with this for your whole life presumably, so there's no rush to suddenly go gung ho on adjustments and therapies and whatever.

ALSO, HOW IS FLY? COME ON, HOW IS THE RIDING/GROUNDWORK/WHATEVER GOING?


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## EliRose

natisha said:


> You haven't had X-rays??!! What if you have a mild slipped disc or something that he's making worse?
> 38 sessions? Why not 37 or 39?
> I agree you shouldn't do it & you don't need to make up any excuses. If you feel the need say you can't afford it & be done.
> 
> Go to a real doctor. Tell him your back hurts, get X-rays done at the same visit then see what they suggest. Tell them your chiro's plan too.


I had to see my chiro three times and then two times a week for three months when I first started to make sure everything stayed in alignment. But the VERY FIRST thing he did was take X-rays!!!!!!! He consulted them every single time I walked in, and when he took a second set three months later there was a noticeable difference, one that will save me surgery. I had no problem giving him the money because my issues were very easy to tell, even with the untrained eye. 

Even if your chiro has now taken X-rays, a reputable one *will never* work on a person without seeing pictures first. See a different chiro (and also a doctor) and yes, you may need to go multiple times a week for a while. I'm sorry but use that $300 on yourself before your problem is exacerbated and you're in pain for the rest of your life. Don't buy a new pad or boots you don't need, get yourself straightened out.


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## gottatrot

Here's something that is common knowledge in the medical field:
X rays don't tell you a whole lot about back pain. 

Are you having daily back pain? Is it muscular pain that comes and goes with activities or do you feel there is severe pain restricting your life? If not, I am not sure why you would need intervention.

We see Xrays of people with areas of the spine that have fused, bulging discs and abnormal curvature. When you ask these people, many of them feel they have no back problems, live normally, and the doctors don't recommend any treatment. There are other people with perfectly normal Xrays that are in severe back pain every day.

I've known people who literally had a C shape in their spine and it did not cause them any pain or problems. 

Most often the body adapts well to changes in the spine. Many people have issues from chronic muscle problems that stem from using their backs incorrectly, stress, being overweight or too sedentary. The best thing most people can do for their backs is daily stretching, strengthening exercises and movement. These can give you better results than seeing a doctor or chiropracter and it is free.

Core strength is very important for preventing back pain. People who have strong back and abdominal muscles are much less likely to have a sudden movement affect their actual spinal column, even if they get a sore muscle.

People want to blame back problems on the spine, when in reality most back pain comes from muscle pain or spasm. We worry a lot about our moving parts, but knee pain is often from muscle problems and back pain is as well.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Some days I feel like you're the definition of Buyer's Remorse. You're very quick to pull the trigger on purchases that I would take _months_ to make a decision about. Why don't you slow down? Go see a specialist, get a second opinion, and stop committing to a huge amount of money for treatments that you're not sure about. You've been living with this for your whole life presumably, so there's no rush to suddenly go gung ho on adjustments and therapies and whatever.


It's not that I'm quick but I tend to get suckered into stuff easily.

I am glad that I cancelled, I called the girls this morning and just told them that I will go see my chiro once a week for the time being until my allowance runs out for the year. 



> ALSO, HOW IS FLY? COME ON, HOW IS THE RIDING/GROUNDWORK/WHATEVER GOING?


[/QUOTE]

She's good, I haven't ridden here since two Saturdays ago. I'm giving her the 10 days off that the vet asked for having her on Previcox. Today was the 10th day. Fly is getting adjusted by the chiro this Saturday.

I'm thinking about cinching her up tomorrow and see how she is. Wonder if she reacts etc. This would be very telling if it's behavourial or she just needed time off. I'm very optimistic.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> I had to see my chiro three times and then two times a week for three months when I first started to make sure everything stayed in alignment. But the VERY FIRST thing he did was take X-rays!!!!!!! He consulted them every single time I walked in, and when he took a second set three months later there was a noticeable difference, one that will save me surgery. I had no problem giving him the money because my issues were very easy to tell, even with the untrained eye.
> 
> Even if your chiro has now taken X-rays, a reputable one *will never* work on a person without seeing pictures first. See a different chiro (and also a doctor) and yes, you may need to go multiple times a week for a while. I'm sorry but use that $300 on yourself before your problem is exacerbated and you're in pain for the rest of your life. Don't buy a new pad or boots you don't need, get yourself straightened out.


My chiro has seen pictures, he went over my xrays with me.

I'm not in pain right now, I plan on getting myself straightened out, I'm just starting with once a week for now and doing the homework that's been given to me 5-6 days a week.

I'm glad to hear that you have had luck before 

I know for a fact that I heal and adjust really well from chiro. So I still think once a week will still be very helpful for me. If I didn't adjust this well, then it would be a different story.

I am going to call my family Dr tomorrow and see if her can refer me to a bone doctor.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Here's something that is common knowledge in the medical field:
> X rays don't tell you a whole lot about back pain.


Oh I didn't know this. I thought X-rays were always the most sure way to see what's going on in the body.



> Are you having daily back pain? Is it muscular pain that comes and goes with activities or do you feel there is severe pain restricting your life? If not, I am not sure why you would need intervention.


No back pain but I can easily get a minor short term pull from just shoveling or raking and awkwardly pulling my back. Like last time I got a minor pull in my back from just raking leaves at the barn for the BO. This was 4 or 5 months ago. Enough of a pull where I can't bend over without discomfort and tightness and then it all goes away once I get adjusted...like literally one adjustment and it's gone.



> We see Xrays of people with areas of the spine that have fused, bulging discs and abnormal curvature. When you ask these people, many of them feel they have no back problems, live normally, and the doctors don't recommend any treatment. There are other people with perfectly normal Xrays that are in severe back pain every day.


Oh I didnt know this. I always thought that x-rays were the god's medicine. Thanks for letting me know.



> I've known people who literally had a C shape in their spine and it did not cause them any pain or problems.


When you mean C shape, do you mean the spine is to the left and right or forward and back?



> Most often the body adapts well to changes in the spine. Many people have issues from chronic muscle problems that stem from using their backs incorrectly, stress, being overweight or too sedentary. The best thing most people can do for their backs is daily stretching, strengthening exercises and movement. These can give you better results than seeing a doctor or chiropracter and it is free.


I agree with this and this is why I am in the works getting my own ecersize ball (even though I have a phobia of them popping on me), and I have started doing these excersizes that my chiro gave me. 



> Core strength is very important for preventing back pain. People who have strong back and abdominal muscles are much less likely to have a sudden movement affect their actual spinal column, even if they get a sore muscle.


I agree and this is why I am working on getting my core stronger. Strong core = strong back and less back problems. So that means that I shouldn't be able to throw out my back as easily.



> People want to blame back problems on the spine, when in reality most back pain comes from muscle pain or spasm. We worry a lot about our moving parts, but knee pain is often from muscle problems and back pain is as well.


I think a lot of it is a result from not strong enough muscles. This is why athletes don't get these pulls and tweaks unless they heavily strained it. Because their bodies are strong enough to handle more than the average person.


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## Hoofpic

Fly got adjusted today by the chiro. I got a new chiro because my previous one would never return my calls. 

This chiro was recommended to me by one of my barn friends and she works with her during the day in her full time job. 

She is going to forward me her notes on Monday but from what I remember today, Fly adjusted really well, was very nice and didn't try to bite (I did hold her head at the start just to be sure) and I brought this to the chiro's attention when starting. Eventually as the session went on, she just did her thing and I stepped aside.

Fly's left hip was lower than the right hip. Chiro said it was a rotational turn or something like that but it was quite a bit. She had me trot Fly before and after the session. (Why did my previous chiro not have me do this when she was out? Shouldn't they be?).

She was also a bit out on the withers and in 3 points along her ribs. She adjusted those too.

She adjusted her poll and neck as well and said that her neck was fine but her atlas was a bit out. 

The chiro said that her gelding is cinchy too but his is behavourial because whenever she tacks him up outside, he is fine and never reacts. But if it's inside, then he reacts like Fly does. She asked if I have tried tacking her up outside and I said no. She suggests I try it to see if there is any change. 

She says from here, it's up to me on what I want to do. If I decide to keep Fly on 1/4 tablet of Previcox a day or not and if I decide to give her more time off.

I think I will give her a few days more of Previcox and try tacking her up in a few days and see how she is. What do you guys think?


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## NavigatorsMom

I think the previous 10 days off has been plenty for her, and now since she has been adjusted you can and should ride. Probably should have been doing groundwork or something with her during that time but that was your choice, I doubt 10 days with nothing would really be deteimental to her.

At the very least now you should be working with her on the ground, and tacking her up, maybe in a variety of places, to see how she reacts. That said, if she is still reactive to being cinched up you will need to fix that. But if she seems sound I would definitely be riding.


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## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> Oh I didn't know this. I thought X-rays were always the most sure way to see what's going on in the body.


If you don't have daily pain, I wouldn't worry about your back too much. It sounds like you are prone to having sore muscles (can happen more with tall people) and it is easily fixed with a little chiro work or massage.

X rays show bony changes and can show major things that are out of place such as bulging discs and narrowed spaces. They are the least detailed. A CT is more detailed and can show problems with soft tissue and blood vessels. If you're in a major car accident, they go right to CTs to check your spine for damage.

An MRI is the most detailed and is necessary to show things like cartilage and subtle soft tissue damage. Of course MRIs and CTs cost much more than X-rays, and a CT gives you the radiation of about 200 X-rays, which is about the amount you'd be exposed to in the natural world in about 7 years. So there is concern about doctors over using CT scans for people who are overly concerned about body issues and request a CT for every stomach or head ache. 



Hoofpic said:


> When you mean C shape, do you mean the spine is to the left and right or forward and back?


My friend had a C shape like this - left to right:









I think it's a good idea you're doing exercises and core strengthening.

If you lunge Fly or run her around the arena, does she seem to be sore or is she moving freely? If she seems to feel fine, I'd start riding her again.


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## Hoofpic

Gottatrot, thanks for your post, I will reply later today. Sorry, I've just been so busy lately ahhhh


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> If you don't have daily pain, I wouldn't worry about your back too much. It sounds like you are prone to having sore muscles (can happen more with tall people) and it is easily fixed with a little chiro work or massage.


I agree. That's why I think I don't need a 6 month program, it's just too much and I'm not willing to spend that much on chiro.



> X rays show bony changes and can show major things that are out of place such as bulging discs and narrowed spaces. They are the least detailed. A CT is more detailed and can show problems with soft tissue and blood vessels. If you're in a major car accident, they go right to CTs to check your spine for damage.


Oh ya, that's true, CT is scan's is more detailed.



> An MRI is the most detailed and is necessary to show things like cartilage and subtle soft tissue damage. Of course MRIs and CTs cost much more than X-rays, and a CT gives you the radiation of about 200 X-rays, which is about the amount you'd be exposed to in the natural world in about 7 years. So there is concern about doctors over using CT scans for people who are overly concerned about body issues and request a CT for every stomach or head ache.





> Oh I see,.
> My friend had a C shape like this - left to right:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's a good idea you're doing exercises and core strengthening.


Thanks. Oh that C shape looks pretty significant. She was able to fix it?



> If you lunge Fly or run her around the arena, does she seem to be sore or is she moving freely? If she seems to feel fine, I'd start riding her again.


I haven't lunged Fly in a long time. Should I? I try now to because I've done so much of this with her in the past lol.

I've trotted her around the arena and she moves freely. 

Today is her 14th straight day on Previcox. I will most likely stop the meds in the next day or two. I think 14 days is more than enough.


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## Prairie

Hoofpic you need an MD, preferably a radiologist, to do a full set of pictures (x-fays, MRI's, or CT's) to determine what is wrong with your spine.....my suspicion is you have scoliosis which is curvature of the spine and can't be fixed by a chiro since the bones are permanently mis-aligned. Scoliosis normally should have been caught in childhood and corrected by a ortho specialist via surgery and/or braces. You also need to get on a good exercise program to develop you muscles,, including your core, so you are physically fit---there is no excuse except laziness for a man your age to be in such poor shape!


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## Hoofpic

Prairie said:


> Hoofpic you need an MD, preferably a radiologist, to do a full set of pictures (x-fays, MRI's, or CT's) to determine what is wrong with your spine.....my suspicion is you have scoliosis which is curvature of the spine and can't be fixed by a chiro since the bones are permanently mis-aligned. Scoliosis normally should have been caught in childhood and corrected by a ortho specialist via surgery and/or braces. You also need to get on a good exercise program to develop you muscles,, including your core, so you are physically fit---there is no excuse except laziness for a man your age to be in such poor shape!


So it's a good thing that I backed out from my chiro's 6 month program, don't you think?

I wonder if my health covers me seeing a radiologist.

YOu don't think chiro's can fix scoliosis (if I have it?)


----------



## tinyliny

there are more people walking around with mild scoliosis than you'd ever imagine. 99% of them probably have NO problem at all. it depends on the amount of rotation. usually, nothing is done. the rotation happens in childhood, then sort of settles down and ceases to change/worsen.

it wouldn't hurt to be examined, but don't go thinking that you are 'ruined' if they say you have some scoliosis.


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## gottatrot

Agree with @tinyliny. As mentioned above, my friend with severe scoliosis had no pain, and they did not attempt to correct anything. Symptoms are what drive treatment, and abnormal anatomy does not always mean pain or issues. I've never heard a doctor recommend that we pursue or even mention to patients the incidental findings we see on CT scans or X-rays. Meaning, we see many things in the spine that are not bothering patients - they are seeing the doctor for other issues and the doctors don't mention that there is some narrowing or misalignment that might someday perhaps cause pain. Because it also might not ever bother the patient.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2014/11/5-surprising-facts-about-adult-scoliosis/


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## sarahfromsc

As a paying patient, if a doctor did NOT tell me all findings of ANY test they ran on MY body and I found out later the doctor did not disclose all findings, that doctor would have a major pain develop called Sarahitis.

Personally, I think is is negligent of a doctor not disclosing all findings. Malpractice?


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## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I haven't lunged Fly in a long time. Should I? I try now to because I've done so much of this with her in the past lol.
> 
> I've trotted her around the arena and she moves freely.
> 
> Today is her 14th straight day on Previcox. I will most likely stop the meds in the next day or two. I think 14 days is more than enough.



I am astounded that someone who has owned his horse for a year and a half and who has been given tons of advice, information and knowledge both on this forum and by professionals can't seem to make a simple decision such as whether he should lunge his horse. You have all the information to make your own decision. Instead of relying on others and asking for advice for every little decision, try practicing making your own decisions on such minor matters. It's kind of the difference between a follower and a leader.


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## greentree

Nobody can fix scoliosis, once you are grown!


----------



## gottatrot

sarahfromsc said:


> As a paying patient, if a doctor did NOT tell me all findings of ANY test they ran on MY body and I found out later the doctor did not disclose all findings, that doctor would have a major pain develop called Sarahitis.
> 
> Personally, I think is is negligent of a doctor not disclosing all findings. Malpractice?


They normally only discuss pertinent findings. It's not negligence because they're highly educated so they can interpret your findings and tell you what will potentially affect your life. Every workup has tons of data and it would only confuse people if the doctor told them every finding. Malpractice requires that the doctor does something outside of normal (and it is normal not to tell patients everything), and it also must be proven to have caused the person physical harm. 

Everyone has a different body and like horses we all have faults - there's a perfect anatomical model that no one fits into. People are allowed to ask for their medical records, so then they can see all the data and try to interpret it on their own if they wish. 

If you look at an x-ray interpretation by a radiologist, you will see that there will be tons of data spelled out. They'll tell you the person has a heart that might be slightly larger than normal, they'll tell you this bone has some extra calcification, blah blah. Then at the end they do a summary that says something like: No acute abnormalities seen. So the doctor will tell you the X-ray is "normal," which it is. 

They could tell you your heart is slightly large and that's probably because you are overweight and your muscle is working harder which could be avoided if you just lost a few pounds and exercised more, that in twenty years you might end up with heart failure, especially if you put any more weight on and keep eating an unhealthy diet. But if you're in the ER for back pain, it's very doubtful they're going to do that.


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## sarahfromsc

Highly educated? What difference does that make? I am highly educated too.

What do they consider pertinent? Everything going on in my body is pertinent to me. And since we are all different how do they know what to discuss with me in regards to my life? So, they play god and decide what my feeble little mind can handle? And they have the right to decide what is important to my everyday life?

That is total BS.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> there are more people walking around with mild scoliosis than you'd ever imagine. 99% of them probably have NO problem at all. it depends on the amount of rotation. usually, nothing is done. the rotation happens in childhood, then sort of settles down and ceases to change/worsen.
> 
> it wouldn't hurt to be examined, but don't go thinking that you are 'ruined' if they say you have some scoliosis.


Thanks and actually you know what? After thinking back, I actually have seen a radiologist before (perhaps 10+ years ago), and I'm almost certain that I do have scolosis. I will double check on this though, but I know forsure that I did see a radiologist to get tests done.


----------



## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Agree with @tinyliny. As mentioned above, my friend with severe scoliosis had no pain, and they did not attempt to correct anything. Symptoms are what drive treatment, and abnormal anatomy does not always mean pain or issues. I've never heard a doctor recommend that we pursue or even mention to patients the incidental findings we see on CT scans or X-rays. Meaning, we see many things in the spine that are not bothering patients - they are seeing the doctor for other issues and the doctors don't mention that there is some narrowing or misalignment that might someday perhaps cause pain. Because it also might not ever bother the patient.
> 
> https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2014/11/5-surprising-facts-about-adult-scoliosis/


When you say doctor are you referring to my chiro? Do you think my chiro is just trying to upsell me into his 6 month programs? My chiro was the one who referred me to get x-rays done and I am quite surprised that he mentioned nothing about seeing my M.D. or a radiologist or even asking if I have scolosis (which I'm almost certain I do have it).


----------



## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> I am astounded that someone who has owned his horse for a year and a half and who has been given tons of advice, information and knowledge both on this forum and by professionals can't seem to make a simple decision such as whether he should lunge his horse. You have all the information to make your own decision. Instead of relying on others and asking for advice for every little decision, try practicing making your own decisions on such minor matters. It's kind of the difference between a follower and a leader.


Well if you feel that way then go right ahead. I was just asking, there is nothing wrong with that. I haven't lunged Fly in month's because she is past that and I felt she didn't need it nor would it benefit either of us.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I haven't lunged Fly in month's because she is past that and I felt she didn't need it nor would it benefit either of us.


A horse doesn't get "past" lunging. Even the most advanced horses are still lunged occasionally. I lunge if my horse has a little excess energy to burn off, or if he's giving me a lot of attitude, or if he needs a refresher on verbal cues, or if I want to use side reins on him, or, or, or... there's a million reasons to lunge a horse, and lunging is always a benefit and never a waste of time, in my opinion.

Lunging is a tool in your belt, like a screwdriver. You don't throw away your screwdriver just because you got a new power drill. It's still useful, and sometimes your screwdriver can tackle problems that your power drill can't.


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## Rainaisabelle

Just because you've moved on from something doesn't mean that skill isn't useable or beneficial, you really need to be able to adapt and use these skills when appropriate. If you feel like you can't tell if she's fully sound lunge her and see if she's sound.

Tools are tools they don't disappear because you believe she's past that.


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## gottatrot

sarahfromsc said:


> Highly educated? What difference does that make? I am highly educated too.
> 
> What do they consider pertinent? Everything going on in my body is pertinent to me. And since we are all different how do they know what to discuss with me in regards to my life? So, they play god and decide what my feeble little mind can handle? And they have the right to decide what is important to my everyday life?
> 
> That is total BS.


Agree. But that is our current system (in the US, and from what I hear in Canada as well), based on fixing problems versus preventing them or educating people about their health.



> (Stephanihiren)
> A horse doesn't get "past" lunging. Even the most advanced horses are still lunged occasionally. I lunge if my horse has a little excess energy to burn off, or if he's giving me a lot of attitude, or if he needs a refresher on verbal cues, or if I want to use side reins on him, or, or, or... *there's a million reasons to lunge a horse,* and lunging is always a benefit and never a waste of time, in my opinion.
> 
> Lunging is a tool in your belt, like a screwdriver. You don't throw away your screwdriver just because you got a new power drill. It's still useful, and sometimes your screwdriver can tackle problems that your power drill can't.


Hoofpic, perhaps you are thinking of lunging as only a natural horsemanship training tool. Lunging has other purposes and uses. One of the important reasons for teaching a horse to lunge is for evaluation of fitness to ride and soundness. It sounds like you feel your horse might be burned out on lunging from doing lots of training with it. It shouldn't be seen by a horse as punishment, and an evaluation does not need to be long or complicated. You just need to move the horse around at a distance so you can see if she is moving well and seems fit to ride.



> (Hoofpic) When you say doctor are you referring to my chiro? Do you think my chiro is just trying to upsell me into his 6 month programs? My chiro was the one who referred me to get x-rays done and I am quite surprised that he mentioned nothing about seeing my M.D. or a radiologist or even asking if I have scolosis (which I'm almost certain I do have it).


I apologize for too much discussion on the topic, somewhat of a tangent on health care. I wasn't trying to get confusing, just giving my opinion that it does not sound like you have serious back pain, and in that case it is my opinion that it would be a waste of time and energy to be overly worried about your back. If it makes you feel better, it won't harm you to go for all the exams and chiro work. But your issues sound minor and not worth that much effort and expense.


----------



## Whinnie

Hoofpic said:


> I haven't lunged Fly in month's because she is past that and I felt she didn't need it nor would it benefit either of us.



So you had a good reason not to lunge Fly, but still had to get an opinion. The point being, there IS something wrong with asking on something like this by someone who thinks he is a leader. You should have enough confidence by now to make this kind of minor decision. Webster's Dictionary defines "leader" as " a person who has commanding authority or influence". Leaders consult on serious matters but can handle the small stuff on their own. Followers need their hand held.


I am challenging you because you SAY you want to be a strong leader, but you don't practice making these little, minor decisions on your own. Right, wrong or indifferent, make your own decision.


Followers continually ask questions about everything and can't make a decision on their own. What is the worst that can happen if you DO lunge Fly to see how she is doing before you ride? What is the worst that can happen if you DON'T lunge Fly before you ride?


Yeah, there IS something wrong with asking if you think you are a leader. IMHO.


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## natisha

Everybody at times questions things they are unsure of. If I'm unsure of a plan I'll ask someone & it has nothing to do with how I interact with the horse but more about trying to not screw up. This is especially true with health issues.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> A horse doesn't get "past" lunging. Even the most advanced horses are still lunged occasionally. I lunge if my horse has a little excess energy to burn off, or if he's giving me a lot of attitude, or if he needs a refresher on verbal cues, or if I want to use side reins on him, or, or, or... there's a million reasons to lunge a horse, and lunging is always a benefit and never a waste of time, in my opinion.
> 
> Lunging is a tool in your belt, like a screwdriver. You don't throw away your screwdriver just because you got a new power drill. It's still useful, and sometimes your screwdriver can tackle problems that your power drill can't.


When I said that Fly was past lunging, it's just when I did so much groundwork with her (before even me riding her). I personally find it a bit boring as well but I do think it has it's uses at times. I won't do it for fun though.



Rainaisabelle said:


> Just because you've moved on from something doesn't mean that skill isn't useable or beneficial, you really need to be able to adapt and use these skills when appropriate. If you feel like you can't tell if she's fully sound lunge her and see if she's sound.
> 
> Tools are tools they don't disappear because you believe she's past that.


----------



## jaydee

Whinnie said:


> I am astounded that someone who has owned his horse for a year and a half and who has been given tons of advice, information and knowledge both on this forum and by professionals can't seem to make a simple decision such as whether he should lunge his horse. You have all the information to make your own decision. Instead of relying on others and asking for advice for every little decision, try practicing making your own decisions on such minor matters. It's kind of the difference between a follower and a leader.


 Seriously?
You actually really wonder why he's asking?
How on earth can you make a statement like that when every time hoofpic does make a decision, even a minor one, to do something off his own bat but runs it past the members who follow his thread he gets a barrage of opposing advice from those that disagree with what he's decided to do then post their objections over and over again.


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## Whinnie

In this case, I don't think something as simple as lunging would "screw up" anything. It is such a small decision to have to ask an opinion about. It is too bad there is not enough confidence here to just lunge (or not ) and then write in the journal something like "I decided not to lunge Fly because...." or "I decided to lunge Fly because"....If others had a differing opinion, then there is the opening for discussion. Hoofpic would have actually made a decision based on his own knowledge. I was under the impression he wanted to be a leader (for his horse). What a good way to practice making decisions, small stuff. Doing research is not asking everybody their opinion, it is doing RESEARCH and forming one's OWN opinion. If and when Hoofpic can start just making decisions on his own without using the forum for a crutch, he will make big steps toward being able to be a leader for his horse. Remember, he has had her for about 18 months, this isn't his first month with her. Critical thinking is necessary for being a leader. I wish him luck.


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## jaydee

Well here's a suggestion then - next time he says he's going to do something and doesn't ask for opinions then don't give him any


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## greentree

jaydee said:


> Well here's a suggestion then - next time he says he's going to do something and doesn't ask for opinions then don't give him any


We tried that.


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## Whinnie

jaydee said:


> Seriously?
> You actually really wonder why he's asking?
> How on earth can you make a statement like that when every time hoofpic does make a decision, even a minor one, to do something off his own bat but runs it past the members who follow his thread he gets a barrage of opposing advice from those that disagree with what he's decided to do then post their objections over and over again.



You just made my point.


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## jaydee

What point?
When he made the decision to not use the dating site again he was challenged about it - that wasn't even horse training related!!!


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## greentree

Let's face it, this is not a journal...


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## Hoofpic

Whinnie said:


> In this case, I don't think something as simple as lunging would "screw up" anything. It is such a small decision to have to ask an opinion about. It is too bad there is not enough confidence here to just lunge (or not ) and then write in the journal something like "I decided not to lunge Fly because...." or "I decided to lunge Fly because"....If others had a differing opinion, then there is the opening for discussion. Hoofpic would have actually made a decision based on his own knowledge. I was under the impression he wanted to be a leader (for his horse). What a good way to practice making decisions, small stuff. Doing research is not asking everybody their opinion, it is doing RESEARCH and forming one's OWN opinion. If and when Hoofpic can start just making decisions on his own without using the forum for a crutch, he will make big steps toward being able to be a leader for his horse. Remember, he has had her for about 18 months, this isn't his first month with her. Critical thinking is necessary for being a leader. I wish him luck.


Just because I ask you guys for your insight on here, doesn't mean I'm unable to make my own decisions. You guys have been around horses a lot longer than I have been, so I am just looking for opinions. Yes I have had Fly for 1.5 years now, but still that is nothing compared to how long some of you guys have been around horses for. 1.5 years is nothing.


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## Hoofpic

I got more coming, when I have time to edit them.


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## Hoofpic

I just sold my old saddle back to where I bought it. It only costed me $250 to use it for 8 months.

I didnt want the hassle selling it privately.

One of my barn friends wanted to try it on her mare and i said sure but she hasnt been out in like a month. So im not going to wait on it jist for her.


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## Hoofpic

I was quite surprised that I got that much back. I only paid $600 for it in March or April and it was missing a billet on the back cinch and no main cinch and no latigo.

If I was to sell this privately Id maybe get $450, but they offered me $400 if I brought the second billet to them or $350 without it. I told them that I was almost certain that it only came with one when i bought it and I didnt feel like driving all the way to the barn to double check so I swallowed the $50 loss.

I would spend 1.5 hours and probably $10 in gas anyways just driving to the barn and back to the shop. It is about 150km round trip.

Saving myself the hassle and getting only $100 less for the saddle than selling privately was worth it IMO. I walked in expecting to be offered $200-250.

Hope my barn friend wont be upset but she has to understand that she hasnt been out in a month and she cant expect me to wait on her first to try it on her mare before i take it in to sell.


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## TimWhit91

At this point hoofpic gets attacked for anything he does or says it seems. Of course he is unsure. He makes a decision and writes about it here, and he has 20 people jump down his throat. He asks for an opinion, and he has 20 people saying he should know this already and make his own decision.


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## tinyliny

glad to see that I am not the only person that feels that way,


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

I feel the same way, TimWhit91 and tinyliny.


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## Rainaisabelle

I'd like to make a point that this thread hasn't had a lot of activity from the people who are supposedly 'jumping down his throat'. Maybe because it's time he made his own mistakes without being told the correct answer


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## Hoofpic

Well I think I am going to try to ride Fly today (first time in exactly 3 weeks). I tacked her up for the first time yesterday in 3 weeks and she still reacted (not as bad as before but her ears still went back for a second) when I fed the latigo through.

My chiro said that she is pretty loose in the cinch area and she should be good to ride now. I think the biggest thing (that was corrected) was that her left hip was lower than the right hip. That could explain her short striding in that one video on the back left hip.

I will take her suggestion though in tacking her up outside to see if I get any different of a reaction from her. I still think it could be behavioral.

She is coming back out next weekend to followup and make any more adjustments if needed.


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## Hoofpic

I rode her today for 20mins just at a walk. It was freezing out so I didn't tack her up outside. 

She still reacted when I did up the cinch, she didn't try to bite but she would put her ears back. I think the real telling thing right now is to try to tack her up outside and see if she is any different. 

I'm wondering if she either has ulcers or if this is behavourial. Obviously the 16 straight days of Previcox was fine, but if she was soar, then that, plus 3 full weeks off and a chiro adjustment should have been enough to heal her.


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## Hoofpic




----------



## Hoofpic

I'm trying to decide if I should get my stirrups turned again on my new saddle. Yes I do have trouble getting my feet in them without having to reach down.

I have my doubts because on my old saddle, overtime the stirrups would start turning back the other way and lose its form from when i first got them turned.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Well I think I am going to try to ride Fly today (first time in exactly 3 weeks).





Hoofpic said:


> Obviously the 16 straight days of Previcox was fine, but if she was soar, then that, plus 3 full weeks off and a chiro adjustment should have been enough to heal her.


I think these are both examples of you doing a good job of taking your past knowledge and using it to make decisions about Fly. Just wanted to say that, since there seems to be an argument about being a leader vs. asking for advice. 



Hoofpic said:


> I'm trying to decide if I should get my stirrups turned again on my new saddle. ... I have my doubts because on my old saddle, overtime the stirrups would start turning back the other way and lose its form from when i first got them turned.


I think this is a good time to try following some online guides on how to turn your own stirrups. That way you're not spending money to have it done, and if it slowly comes undone over time you'll know how to do it again to "renew" the twist.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I think these are both examples of you doing a good job of taking your past knowledge and using it to make decisions about Fly. Just wanted to say that, since there seems to be an argument about being a leader vs. asking for advice.


True, but it never hurts to ask others for their opinion thats' all.



> I think this is a good time to try following some online guides on how to turn your own stirrups. That way you're not spending money to have it done, and if it slowly comes undone over time you'll know how to do it again to "renew" the twist.


That's a good idea but the only thing is that I would be doing the broomstick method and from what I read, it's not permanent like how the shop's guy did it.. The guy did a good job on the old saddle but if the twist eventually starting to lose it's formation, then it makes me doubt if it was worth the money to pay to have it done. Not just that, but I don't wanna have to keep paying to get it constantly redone. I thought these twists were permanent and didn't know that you had to keep doing it.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> True, but it never hurts to ask others for their opinion thats' all.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good idea but the only thing is that I would be doing the broomstick method and from what I read, it's not permanent like how the shop's guy did it.. The guy did a good job on the old saddle but if the twist eventually starting to lose it's formation, then it makes me doubt if it was worth the money to pay to have it done. Not just that, but I don't wanna have to keep paying to get it constantly redone. I thought these twists were permanent and didn't know that you had to keep doing it.


All leather stretches.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> All leather stretches.


I know, but I wouldn't think that stirrups (that were turned 3 months ago), lose it's twist over time. If that's the case, then this twist is something that has to be re-done periodically. It's not a one and done thing.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I know, but I wouldn't think that stirrups (that were turned 3 months ago), lose it's twist over time. If that's the case, then this twist is something that has to be re-done periodically. It's not a one and done thing.


Are we talking about your old saddle or the new one?


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## greentree

I am curious...do you you have a degree from university?


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Are we talking about your old saddle or the new one?


The old one, which is now sold to the shop where I bought it from. I was thinking earlier, perhaps an older saddle (cause it has more wear on the leather), won't hold the twist as well as a brand new one.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I am curious...do you you have a degree from university?


-?
No I do not and what does this have to do with anything?:-?


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> The old one, which is now sold to the shop where I bought it from. I was thinking earlier, perhaps an older saddle (cause it has more wear on the leather), won't hold the twist as well as a brand new one.


Are you going to put the twist thing on your new saddle?


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> -?
> No I do not and what does this have to do with anything?:-?


Well some people could ask the same question...


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> True, but it never hurts to ask others for their opinion thats' all.


Dude, just take a compliment! I say something nice and you immediately have to be contrary... :-|



Hoofpic said:


> That's a good idea but the only thing is that I would be doing the broomstick method and from what I read, it's not permanent like how the shop's guy did it.


Yeah, but it's NOT permanent, apparently. So your options are spend money to have them do it for the rest of your life, or learn to do it yourself instead. It's not a hard decision to make.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Are you going to put the twist thing on your new saddle?


I wish I could do without it, but right now I can't get my feet in them without having to physically reach and grab the stirrups. Doesn't help that the saddle is brand new too. :grin:


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Well some people could ask the same question...


I know.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Dude, just take a compliment! I say something nice and you immediately have to be contrary... :-|


I didn't mean to come across that way, I'm sorry. 



> Yeah, but it's NOT permanent, apparently. So your options are spend money to have them do it for the rest of your life, or learn to do it yourself instead. It's not a hard decision to make.


I can't afford to be having it constantly redone so I'm crossing my fingers i can do it myself . Plus it's a bit of a hassle dropping it off, waiting a week to get it back etc. 

On my old saddle, the stirrups started losing it's twist even a couple months after using it. I was disappointed.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I didn't mean to come across that way, I'm sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't afford to be having it constantly redone so I'm crossing my fingers i can do it myself . Plus it's a bit of a hassle dropping it off, waiting a week to get it back etc.
> 
> On my old saddle, the stirrups started losing it's twist even a couple months after using it. I was disappointed.


Read this:
How To Turn Stirrups

Note that in the picture with the handle through the stirrups the fender is kind of bowed out. You don't want that to happen. Simply push it in before letting it set. 
I usually give my stirrups an extra 1/2 twist more than they show in the pictures. It seems to hold better as they will want to come back, so over twisting puts them right where you want them.
You can do this.


----------



## Whinnie

There is white search bar near the top right hand of this page (and all pages on Horse Forum). It has the google symbol on the left of the search bar. Type in "Horse Forum turning western stirrups". It will direct you to excellent instructions with pictures on how to do this that is a thread on Horse Forum. If you don't type in Horse Forum, you will still get lots of articles on how to turn the stirrups from other sources. This is how to search for information. On your own. Then, if you don't understand something, you can PM the OP of the thread with questions and get the best answer pertaining to the thread that was posted by the person who gave the original directions. 


You have mentioned that you don't like to search on the net because "there is a lot of bad information out there" (your words). If you include "Horse Forum" in any search, it will direct you to threads on Horse Forum where questions have been asked and answered. It appears that you want Horse Forum to be your only source of information, so this is how to do it.


Personally, looking at pictures of a wrapped, twisted western stirrup, I can't see how it could ever come undone under any circumstances unless you unwrap it. And why would anyone do that?


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Read this:
> How To Turn Stirrups
> 
> Note that in the picture with the handle through the stirrups the fender is kind of bowed out. You don't want that to happen. Simply push it in before letting it set.
> I usually give my stirrups an extra 1/2 twist more than they show in the pictures. It seems to hold better as they will want to come back, so over twisting puts them right where you want them.
> You can do this.


Thanks. I am going to try this in the next few days. We have gotten a sudden winter breeze (dropping to -30C next Monday), so it will give me time to see if I can twist them on my own.

Have you done this before?


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## PoptartShop

Leather definitely stretches. I just had to poke another hole in the saddle I use because it stretched over time.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I am going to try this in the next few days. We have gotten a sudden winter breeze (dropping to -30C next Monday), so it will give me time to see if I can twist them on my own.
> 
> Have you done this before?


Yes, many times.


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## sarahfromsc

Hoofpic, take the saddle back and demand the twist be done correctly. Period. End of conversation. Sometimes it pays to be a biatch.

If he doesn't like the twist in his stirrups he needs to take it back to the tack shop and DEMAND they be fixed correctly. That is what grown ups do.


----------



## Hoofpic

Fly had her teeth checked today. Apparently her very very back teeth (2nd from the back) on the bottom are very sharp and her tops were fine. The dentist said that the bottom two teeth that were sharp are inwards and digging into her tonque. He said the teeth were 1" too long so we got him to take it down.

The good news is that he was able to do take 1/2" off both teeth. The bad news is that he couldnt do it all today because half hour into it and Fly was getting rude and aggitated and he said that he will come back. He tried using a twitch on Fly but Fly wanted no part of that and it just wasnt going to happen today. So he said he will come back in 6 months.

So he said he will come back in 6 months to do the rest. I thought he was coming back as in like a week or a few days, but he said he took enough off that it wont be a problem right now and Fly will feel a lot better. He wants to see how it is in 6 months just in case its a cap (but he said he highly doubts that it is), but take care of this early and it wont be an issue. He said 6 months isnt too long. 

Glad I got her checked!


----------



## tinyliny

A number of posts were removed in hopes of returning this back into hoofpic's journal. It seems that a misunderstanding perhaps derailed things.
if you see that your post was removed, please excuse the interruption.

We can't say this enough times. . . if you have a problem with a moderating decision REPORT IT, and start a Talk to the Team thread. please don't air your complaints onto the thread and make a small problem bigger. It is clearly written in the rules that this is how you handle a disagreement with moderating decision.


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## greentree

For goodness SAKE! 
Hoofpic, you are a grown man. This is an Internet forum, and YOU are an intelligent enough person to figure out how to post progress with Fly here, and ask questions in other sections of the forum. 

We would all LIKE to hear about how you are doing with Fly HERE, on your JOURNAL!!

(Just try not to use any question marks in your posts, lol)


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> For goodness SAKE!
> Hoofpic, you are a grown man. This is an Internet forum, and YOU are an intelligent enough person to figure out how to post progress with Fly here, and ask questions in other sections of the forum.
> 
> We would all LIKE to hear about how you are doing with Fly HERE, on your JOURNAL!!
> 
> (Just try not to use any question marks in your posts, lol)


That's what I'm doing, I'm updating with progress with Fly and I in my journal.

Anyways, today Fly got a followup from the chiro. She said that her butt is still even (last time she came out, which was her first time, Fly's left hip was lower than the right and it was also rotated). That would explain her short striding. So her butt is still good but she noticed her left shoulder was a bit forward from the right. She said that she adjusted her front left shoulder the first time but she was just ever so slightly forward today (not nearly as bad as the first time). It could be muscle memory. She said, if it is, then chances are it will come back but it won't be as bad each time and after 2-3 adjustments, that problem area should be good for a good while.

THis is why she said it's so important to do log work with Fly, walk her over them, trot, ride, ride trot, back up etc. She said backing up a horse is really good for working their hind end. Because what I need to do is get Fly to use her hind end more and not rely on her front end as much. Throughout the winter, I plan on doing log work with her often, so come Spring I should see an improvement in her and her.

Chiro said that Fly isn't soar anymore and says that if she reacts anymore from cinching her up, it's behavourial. So it is up to me to correct her and put her in her place to knock it off in terms of putting her ears back at me. Because the day (4 days ago) where I cinched her up outside the barn and she was fine, that told everything.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> THis is why she said it's so important to do log work with Fly, walk her over them, trot, ride, ride trot, back up etc.


Ground poles! And raised ground poles! They're so so _so _good for a horse. They make them have to focus on their feet and lift with their back, plus they're a good test of a rider's balance, too. You can post over them, sit over them, sit over them without stirrups, two point over them... lots of great options, especially when you start thinking up different ways to set up the ground poles (a circle of ground poles is a great challenge).

I'm surprised your trainer doesn't have you doing this stuff regularly in your lessons.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Ground poles! And raised ground poles! They're so so _so _good for a horse. They make them have to focus on their feet and lift with their back, plus they're a good test of a rider's balance, too. You can post over them, sit over them, sit over them without stirrups, two point over them... lots of great options, especially when you start thinking up different ways to set up the ground poles (a circle of ground poles is a great challenge).
> 
> I'm surprised your trainer doesn't have you doing this stuff regularly in your lessons.


Yes ground poles are great! Lots to do with them.


----------



## Hoofpic

We are having a cold snap here (started yesterday) and will be here for about 10 days before it warms up. It's -31 with the windchill at the barn right now. I know the horses are warm with the hay but I always hate seeing any horses have to put up with this kind of weather.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> We are having a cold snap here (started yesterday) and will be here for about 10 days before it warms up. It's -31 with the windchill at the barn right now. I know the horses are warm with the hay but I always hate seeing any horses have to put up with this kind of weather.


They have it better than we do. Someone brings them their food, they don't have to shovel to get anywhere, someone else cleans up after them, they don't have to crawl out of a warm bed to go to work & their coat is always the right one.


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> They have it better than we do. Someone brings them their food, they don't have to shovel to get anywhere, someone else cleans up after them, they don't have to crawl out of a warm bed to go to work & their coat is always the right one.


That is true, horses have the easy life in the Winter :grin:, plus they get more food. I think when it's -30 (or even -20 out my BO tosses out 2 extra flakes for each horse inbetween breakfast and dinner. So a horse that essentially gets 4 flakes/day in the spring and summer, gets 6 in the winter. 

It makes for some really great picture taking that's forsure. Especially with the lighting bouncing off of the snow. If I get lucky, maybe I can see them playing this year in the snow.


----------



## StephaniHren

Any updates on your riding, Hoofpic? It's been a while since we heard about any progress.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Any updates on your riding, Hoofpic? It's been a while since we heard about any progress.


I gave her full 3 weeks off to heal up and I got on her twice last week for about 25mins each time. This week it's been -30 with the windchill so I've been doing ground poles with her this week (just did it again today). For the first time, today I set up about 8 logs forming part of a circle and a couple other logs on the other side of the circle raised up about a foot off the ground and I basically had her go over them in both directions. It would be amazing to have enough logs to form a full circle but unfortunately we don't have enough.

I was goin to record it for you guys to see, but I forgot my camera, perhaps I will do it this weekend.

I usually do ground poles with her for about 15mins-20mins. This is something that I plan on doing with her at least a couple times a week if not more throughout the winter (as well as backing up work,which Im sure she will love lol) because I really need her to learn to use her hind end more.

Because of the weather, it keeps all my friends away and my trainer doesn't do lessons. I have to say that it's so nice being at the barn and not a single person is there and you have the entire arena to yourself.


----------



## Hoofpic

Do you guys think im crazy going out to the barn and doing stuff when its -35c out? I get the arena all to myself.


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## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> Do you guys think im crazy going out to the barn and doing stuff when its -35c out? I get the arena all to myself.


Yes, but it's the good kind of crazy. The kind of crazy that has people doing endurance rides in the rain and going for rides in the moonlight.


----------



## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Yes, but it's the good kind of crazy. The kind of crazy that has people doing endurance rides in the rain and going for rides in the moonlight.


My friends say I'm crazy being in the arena working with Fly for 30mins when its -35C out lol. And of course it takes more time to set up the logs and take them down each time so I easily spend 20mins just to set them up and take them down each time.

Base layers + snowpants + new coat + lots layers + good hat + neck/face mask + thermal socks + gloves does the trick. 80% which is new of this year and I wish I spent the money and got all of this last winter.


----------



## Hoofpic

I was thinking about this last night and when I take future videos to show you guys, I will not be recording and showing you the entire thing. If it is a lesson, then I will perhaps take longer videos than the norm (it won't be the entire lesson), and for stuff like riding outside or trail riding, I will just take clips here and there and put them together for you.

Because after recording my entire 2 hour trail ride from a couple months ago, I soon realized that no one is going to sit through and watch all of it. So I will capture only the highlights.


----------



## Hoofpic

Am I nuts for saying that I want to be around horses more? I'm actually missing the days when I would volunteer at a barn on the weekends doing barn chores just to be around horses again. 

But with my back not being 100% and me in the works of building up my core, I feel it wouldn't be wise for me to touch base with barns again. The last thing I need is to put my back out.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Am I nuts for saying that I want to be around horses more?


Why don't you ride/work with Fly more often? I mean, you own your own horse, you should be able to have as much horse time as you want...


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Why don't you ride/work with Fly more often? I mean, you own your own horse, you should be able to have as much horse time as you want...


I know but when I leave the barn, I want to spend even more time around horses.

Remember at the old barn (because I was relied on for barn chores and feed), I spent 4-5 hours there every summer weekday night and 12+ hours on Sat and again Sunday. People always bugged me saying how I should just live there lol.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Remember at the old barn (because I was relied on for barn chores and feed), I spent 4-5 hours there every summer weekday night and 12+ hours on Sat and again Sunday. People always bugged me saying how I should just live there lol.


I guess I just don't see why you can't spend that much time at the barn now?

I go out to my barn six days a week. On weekdays I probably spend a good 3 hours at the barn (thirty minutes to tack, an hour to ride, thirty minutes to untack, an hour putzing around watching other lessons and stuff), and I wouldn't feel weird spending more time (I just have to go to work, so I can't). On weekends I'm usually there a similar amount of time... but if I wanted to spend all day there, I could, it's not like someone's putting a time limit on me, I just usually have other stuff I want to do.

If you want to spend all day at the barn, I doubt anyone would stop you! On days you want to spend 12+ hours you could always double up on Fly's ride time, too—do an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon, or devote the morning to some ground work and then just ride in the afternoon. Honestly, more ride time has never hurt anyone, person or horse (unless they're already overworked, which Fly definitely _isn't_).


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I guess I just don't see why you can't spend that much time at the barn now?


12 hours on each weekend day is a lot. When I would spend 24 hours every weekend at the previous barn, I did barn chores and I still had a lot of time on my hands. There are times where I have spend 7-8 hours at my barn now during the summer and that was usually when my friends were out too and the barn was busy.



> I go out to my barn six days a week. On weekdays I probably spend a good 3 hours at the barn (thirty minutes to tack, an hour to ride, thirty minutes to untack, an hour putzing around watching other lessons and stuff), and I wouldn't feel weird spending more time (I just have to go to work, so I can't). On weekends I'm usually there a similar amount of time... but if I wanted to spend all day there, I could, it's not like someone's putting a time limit on me, I just usually have other stuff I want to do.


I go out 5-6 days a week but last week it was so cold and I was so busy that I was only able to make it out 4 times a week. You have to remember, my friends don't go to the barn when it's cold and my trainer doesn't do lessons when it's colder than -15. So last week it was super quiet and I was just about the only person there when I was there. One of my friends has been out once in the past 6 weeks. 



> If you want to spend all day at the barn, I doubt anyone would stop you! On days you want to spend 12+ hours you could always double up on Fly's ride time, too—do an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon, or devote the morning to some ground work and then just ride in the afternoon. Honestly, more ride time has never hurt anyone, person or horse (unless they're already overworked, which Fly definitely _isn't_).


I remember when i first moved here and Fly was in an isolation paddock, I went out everyday to see her for 3 weeks. I went out just to clean up her paddock. I felt like the BO was getting sick of seeing me everyday lol.

If I did stuff with Fly twice a day that would only be able to happen on the weekends. There have been a handful of times where I did catch her twice in a day and do stuff with her twice on the same day but that was mainly because my friends would get there after I just put her back and they ask if I want to do stuff with them and their horses.


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## Rainaisabelle

Well you have two options you can either go and spend more time at the barn or don't go and spend more time at the barn.


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## Hoofpic

You guys will be in for a treat once the Spring comes , as in my intentions in how I will document and record my future videos and experiences. One thing I want to do is be able to video tape and record when I am at horse shows. Do you know if video recording is generally not allowed at horse exhibitions and expos? Like the Mane Event in Red Deer, I'm already looking forward to it. 

When I go to these shows and expos, I want to record and document everything. 

2016 was good for getting it under my belt but now I want to record and take things to the next level. I was doing some thinking this past couple weeks and life is too short to let moments like this slip by. I am turning 36 in February, I am not getting any younger and I need to make the most of it, every experience that I get to be in. Because looking back to this year, there are a lot of times and experiences that I went through that I regret not documenting and saving. 

Plus, I enjoy video editing and because my job relies heavily on it, one of my career goals is to get better at it, and what better way than to do it in my leisure time when I'm recording horse stuff right?

i know my previous job taught me a lot, but I want to really expand on it and 2017 will be even more fun for me!


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## carshon

I for one would not be interested in videos of random horse shows you attend or equine events you attend.

I have followed your thread for the really great advice others have given and looked to see how I could implement it in my own equine endeavors.

I have generally stopped following your thread because it became less training and riding oriented and became a commentary on your daily activities.

As it is your journal you are able to post what you would like but I believe most followers and commenters have left as the equine aspect of the journal itself became less present.


----------



## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> I for one would not be interested in videos of random horse shows you attend or equine events you attend.
> 
> I have followed your thread for the really great advice others have given and looked to see how I could implement it in my own equine endeavors.
> 
> I have generally stopped following your thread because it became less training and riding oriented and became a commentary on your daily activities.
> 
> As it is your journal you are able to post what you would like but I believe most followers and commenters have left as the equine aspect of the journal itself became less present.


Well a big reason why it's become less training related in the past month is because I don't post my riding videos on here anymore. It was doing no good and I will post a video (if I feel comfortable) come next Spring or Summer. 

That and I gave Fly 3 weeks off to recover so that would explain it.

I am now very select in what I ask and don't ask for in my journal. Before I would ask anything and everything. But now, I don't have the same approach, which I guess is a little unfortunate but what I've learned this year is that sometimes you are better off not saying anything at all. The last thing I want to be doing is causing more stress for other people on this board.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Well you have two options you can either go and spend more time at the barn or don't go and spend more time at the barn.


I ALWAYS try my best to spend as much time as I can at the barn. 

Out of all the boarders there, I am still the one who spends by far the most amount of time there (when you exclude the time spent by others doing barn chores). Remember, I often just go to hang out with the herd and even hang out in Fly's field watching them play and communicate. Last winter I would go out when it's pitch black out and just sit on a log in their field listening to them eat while I watch the stars. There is not a better feeling in the world. My friends think I'm crazy and don't understand why I would want to sit in a field listening to horses eat in pitch black darkness on a winter night. 

I know I am a bit wierd because I am the only person really at the barn who has any interest what so ever in just hanging out with horses. And my trainer and BO (I'm almost certain) were a bit taken back by it at first, but they have accepted that sometimes I just want to spend time with the horses and do nothing.


----------



## tinyliny

carshon said:


> I for one would not be interested in videos of random horse shows you attend or equine events you attend.
> I have followed your thread for the really great advice others have given and looked to see how I could implement it in my own equine endeavors.
> 
> I have generally stopped following your thread because it became less training and riding oriented and became a commentary on your daily activities.
> 
> As it is your journal you are able to post what you would like but Ibelieve most followers and commenters have left as the equine aspect of the journal itself became less present.



you could have just stopped following it, instead of leaving this reminder of how little you regard the author of HIS own journal.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> You have to remember, my friends don't go to the barn when it's cold and my trainer doesn't do lessons when it's colder than -15. So last week it was super quiet and I was just about the only person there when I was there.


So you don't want to spend more time with the horses, you want to spend more time socializing with people at the barn? I'm not sure I understand how the barn being quiet has to do with you not being able to get more time with horses... It comes down to what @Rainaisabelle said, you either spend more time with the horses or you don't.


Hoofpic said:


> When I go to these shows and expos, I want to record and document everything.


I find this a little weird. The only time I film at a horse show is if I'm filming a friend. On top of that, I stalwartly believe that you're not able to process and learn things through the lens of a camera in the same way that you do when you watch something first hand. As counter intuitive as it seems, I've always found that taping everything is how you let moment slip by because you're too focused on the camera and getting good film and not focused enough on what's actually happening around you. Just my $0.02.


carshon said:


> I for one would not be interested in videos of random horse shows you attend or equine events you attend.


^ This. I definitely wouldn't spend my spare time watching random horse show videos.


Hoofpic said:


> Well a big reason why it's become less training related in the past month is because I don't post my riding videos on here anymore. It was doing no good and I will post a video (if I feel comfortable) come next Spring or Summer.


Look, this is still your thread. I think you should keep posting videos to document Fly's progress, you should just make it clear that you're not looking for any critique or feedback on them. I for one am still interested in videos.


----------



## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> I ALWAYS try my best to spend as much time as I can at the barn.
> 
> Out of all the boarders there, I am still the one who spends by far the most amount of time there (when you exclude the time spent by others doing barn chores). Remember, I often just go to hang out with the herd and even hang out in Fly's field watching them play and communicate. Last winter I would go out when it's pitch black out and just sit on a log in their field listening to them eat while I watch the stars. There is not a better feeling in the world. My friends think I'm crazy and don't understand why I would want to sit in a field listening to horses eat in pitch black darkness on a winter night.
> 
> I know I am a bit wierd because I am the only person really at the barn who has any interest what so ever in just hanging out with horses. And my trainer and BO (I'm almost certain) were a bit taken back by it at first, but they have accepted that sometimes I just want to spend time with the horses and do nothing.


I don't understand why you have to keep telling people you spend heaps of time there but yet you're struggling to make this decision? 


You know where I am with my horse I am by myself there is no one else, I alone except for my BMs horses. So you can spend heaps of time with your horses without other people having to be present.


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> So you don't want to spend more time with the horses, you want to spend more time socializing with people at the barn? I'm not sure I understand how the barn being quiet has to do with you not being able to get more time with horses... It comes down to what @Rainaisabelle said, you either spend more time with the horses or you don't.
> 
> I never said that, I want to spend more time at the barn, being around horses is the best thing ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find this a little weird. The only time I film at a horse show is if I'm filming a friend. On top of that, I stalwartly believe that you're not able to process and learn things through the lens of a camera in the same way that you do when you watch something first hand. As counter intuitive as it seems, I've always found that taping everything is how you let moment slip by because you're too focused on the camera and getting good film and not focused enough on what's actually happening around you. Just my $0.02.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see what's so wierd about it. I know when I went to the horse show in Medicine Show, as long as I find balance between focusing and listening to what people are saying, what's on demonstration and my camera, I am fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ This. I definitely wouldn't spend my spare time watching random horse show videos.
> 
> Look, this is still your thread. I think you should keep posting videos to document Fly's progress, you should just make it clear that you're not looking for any critique or feedback on them. I for one am still interested in videos.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Random horse shows are great. Many people on here are into horse shows.
> 
> I will post videos of Fly when I feel comfortable.
Click to expand...


----------



## greentree

The thing about posting videos is....you must be comfortable taking the criticism. There WILL be some, no matter how much the thread is moderated. If you post videos only wanting compliments, then you should say so up front.


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## tinyliny

that's why I've only once ever posted a video of my riding; very scary to be that open to public remarks. my hat's off to those who do.


----------



## Hoofpic




----------



## egrogan

^^Using your friends as a windbreak...smart


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> ^^Using your friends as a windbreak...smart


I find the winter time is an amazing time for photos because of the light bouncing off the snow. 

Lots of sleeping lately the past couple days. These horse have a hard life


----------



## Allison Finch

carshon said:


> I for one would not be interested in videos of random horse shows you attend or equine events you attend.
> 
> I have followed your thread for the really great advice others have given and looked to see how I could implement it in my own equine endeavors.
> 
> I have generally stopped following your thread because it became less training and riding oriented and became a commentary on your daily activities.
> 
> As it is your journal you are able to post what you would like but I believe most followers and commenters have left as the equine aspect of the journal itself became less present.


You seem to miss the intent of this forum. 

It is a JOURNAL......which is a description of your experiences. If you want a learning experience, go to forums meant to be a learning experience. This is, essentially, meant to be a diary, of sorts.


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## farmpony84

*Moderator Note:*

A member journal is a place for a member to post ones personal experiences, feelings, thoughts, etc. While this journal has become an interactive journal where other members post advice, thoughts, and discussions within the thread, it is important for them to remember they are guests within a personal journal. 

Any questions regarding rules of behavior or etiquette within the forum should be directed to the Talk to the Team section and not posted within this journal.

Thank you,

Horseforum Team


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## whisperbaby22

Beautiful photos Hoofpic, thanks for posting.


----------



## Hoofpic

Merry Christmas.

Hoping to get a Santa hat on Fly in the next day or two. 

Fly was waiting patiently for her turn to get her feet trimmed today.


----------



## Hoofpic

Do you guys think I should get my trainer a small xmas gift? I am giving my two good friends there something small. Just $10 each.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Do you guys think I should get my trainer a small xmas gift? I am giving my two good friends there something small. Just $10 each.


Sure, why not?


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you guys think I should get my trainer a small xmas gift? I am giving my two good friends there something small. Just $10 each.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, why not?
Click to expand...

Only thing is, I dont know what to get her. I got my two friends and Apple crumble pue and the other organic dark cholcate bars.

I will post a pic of the framed picture for my BO. It took some running around to see which frame would look best with the image and how to edit the image but I got it done and im pretty happy with it.


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## weeedlady

Chocolate is always appropriate, I think.


----------



## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Only thing is, I dont know what to get her.


Depends on how much you're looking to spend. Homemade baked goods are great. Chocolate is good, too. Gift cards are easy and you can make them more personal by buying a card and writing wonderful things to the person in question. It's winter time, so if you want to go a little more expensive you can't go wrong with a new pair of insulated gloves (Ariat makes some for around $40).

Just a few ideas.


----------



## Hoofpic

weedlady said:


> Chocolate is always appropriate, I think.


I don't think she eats it, at least not certain ones, I know she's very health concious. Anyways, I decided to pick up a desert for her and if I don't see her tomorrow (not sure if she will be out or not), then I can always bring it home and eat it myself lol.

Not to sound cheap but I didn't want to spend anymore than $10 on each gift. BO is an exception. I know Christmas is tough for him because his wife passed away from cancer on Christmas day in 2008, so it's not exactly his favourite time of the year. I hope the picture that I bring him tomorrow will make his day


----------



## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Depends on how much you're looking to spend. Homemade baked goods are great. Chocolate is good, too. Gift cards are easy and you can make them more personal by buying a card and writing wonderful things to the person in question. It's winter time, so if you want to go a little more expensive you can't go wrong with a new pair of insulated gloves (Ariat makes some for around $40).
> 
> Just a few ideas.


Honestly $10 at most. Not because I'm cheap, but I'm usually not one to give gifts to anyone unless they are a really good friend or close to me. Her and I really aren't close at all so what I get would be more of a nice gesture than anything.


----------



## Hoofpic

Here is the photo I am giving my BO. This boy turns 35 next year.










Original, but I had to crop it . 










Going to wrap it in green tissue paper and put a big red bow on it. I also got a match easel to go with it to save him from having to drill holes in the wall or mount it.


----------



## charrorider

Just started using HF after a long absence. How is your mare coming along? I'm not a friend of the horse training method that has a tendency to rush to judgement and blame everything on a horse showing disrespect.


----------



## Hoofpic

I've decided to not get my trainer anything for Christmas. 

Instead I am teaming up with a stranger online that I just started talking to late last night and we are supplying a family in need with a Christmas turkey and some stocking stuffers for the kids. She picked up the turkeys and I will run to Walmart this morning to get some stocking stuffers for the kids then we are dropping them off at her place tonight.

I also have loaded one of my dressers that I no longer use and some clothing that no longer fits and will be dropping them off to a single mom this morning who needs them.

I want this Christmas eve to be different. I don't want to be sitting at home, I want to make a difference for others.


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## jaydee

That's a nice idea. My family stopped buying gifts for the adults quite a long time ago because we were spending a fair bit on lots of little things that none of us really needed. We now donate the amount we'd spend to good charities instead.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> That's a nice idea. My family stopped buying gifts for the adults quite a long time ago because we were spending a fair bit on lots of little things that none of us really needed. We now donate the amount we'd spend to good charities instead.


Today didn't go so well. Aside from me being able to go to the barn and hang out with the herd and the BO loving the picture I gave him (I'm sure he got a good laugh too from seeing his oldest boy in it lol), it was a waste of time, a total joke.

That single mom who I was talking to late last night who needed a dresser for her kids, didn't even thank me for it. 

I lug this dresser up my stairs, in the car and to her, then out from the car to just outside her front door step (she lives in a duplex so there is double doors. No answer at the door. I had to get going so I texted her that i left the dresser just insude the duplex door. 

Factor in that we got 11cm of snow here overnight and roads were bad this morning. 

Not even a simple text or email back saying THANK YOU!!!! What a joke, stuff like this upsets me. There are too many grateful people in this world to deal with ungrateful people like her.

All she had to do was text me back saying "Thank you, Merry Christmas" and I would feel appreciated for what I did.

We got 11cm of snow last night, it's Christmas Eve and I easily could have just stood her up and not even show up. But I didn't. Why? Because I'm not that kind of person, I keep my word. When I say that I am going to do something, I follow through and if I can't , then I let that person know. But I always make an honest effort. I donated this dresser because her kids needed it. Even though they are complete strangers to me and I don't know these kids (they could be the biggest brats in the world for all I know), all I know was I wanted these kids to have something to put their clothes in and that is more important than this dresser taking up space in my closet. So even with bad roads, I still made the trek to get this dresser to them and on time when I said I would be there.

Now, she has to look at it from the other end. What if I was to not show up? I'm sure she would be upset. I could only imagine the number of people who contact her and don't keep their word, they're all talk but don't walk the walk. But when someone like me comes along who goes out of their way to help them, she needs to show some appreciation back. It's just common courtesy, unfortunately so many people lack it these days and seeing how she is a mother, it's only going to carry down to her children.

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and not judge without knowing their situation but this world is full of scammers. People will do anything and stoop to an all new low to take advantage of others. It's sad, really sad and disgraceful. 

I'm on Kijiji right now as we speak and there are already ads with people offering an already cooked Xmas dinner with turkey, stuffing, all the fixings including free delivery to the persons home. Not only did this person buy you the dinner, but they cooked it for you, cut everything and will even bring it to your door, and on Xmas day! 

There are also some ads welcoming strangers to and inside their home for a xmas dinner. These are obviously meant for people who have no one to spend xmas with and would like company. People who have family elsewhere, etc.

But we all know that it's going to end up being someone sitting at home who isn't struggling financially and probably is working and has lots of electronics in their house, has a car, but will act like a sad act just so that they can score a free dinner. I gaurentee this will happen. Shameful.


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## egrogan

See, the thing about volunteering or doing generous things for others is IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. If you go into it expecting to be fawned over, you're going to be disappointed. 

Maybe an organized nonprofit with a volunteer recognition program would be a more rewarding experience for you than interacting with strangers you find online.


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## Hoofpic

charrorider said:


> Just started using HF after a long absence. How is your mare coming along? I'm not a friend of the horse training method that has a tendency to rush to judgement and blame everything on a horse showing disrespect.


Fly is coming along well, though the past few weeks it's been cold here and we've been doing more ground poles and log work than riding. 

I've made it a habit where even if I just take her in the barn to groom her, I take the time to lay out the wood logs so Fly can go over them. I've been lunging her over the logs lately at a walk and trot. 

I find even at a walk, she is a bit lazy at times in picking up those back feet for the logs that are almost 1ft off the ground, so she keeps knocking it over and I have to keep adjusting it.

Is it hard on a horse's feet when they accidentally step on a log? I would trot her over a set of say 7 or 8 wood logs and what I do is spread them out a bit further apart than when I just walk her over them. She will sometimes accidentally step on a foot log every now and then. Maybe I should spread the logs out and break them up into 2 sections? So that I have maybe 4 logs in one section of the circle, then 4 in the other.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> See, the thing about volunteering or doing generous things for others is IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. If you go into it expecting to be fawned over, you're going to be disappointed.
> 
> Maybe an organized nonprofit with a volunteer recognition program would be a more rewarding experience for you than interacting with strangers you find online.


I know it's not about me but still a simple thank you would go a long ways in showing appreciation for what I did. 

I like to help others, but I would rather devote that time and effort to people who are truly grateful for it. There are too many people in this world who are grateful for every little thing done for them to be bothered with people who pretend they are, but they really aren't.

Those that are truely poverish have great dignity and are embarrassed to ask for help. Those are the ones that I would help.


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## greentree

Yeah, we see those people on horse Forum all the time!


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## Hoofpic

Well everyone loves the gift I gave my BO, apparently he got emotional over it. I didn't mean to cause that but I am glad that I put a smile on his face. 

Merry Christmas to Horse Forums, from Fly and Hoofpic


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## ChristineNJ

$999.00 for a used saddle.......crazy! You could buy a Tucker Saddle for that........which I think are the best Western Saddle you can buy!!


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## tinyliny

please don't get too hardened by this one bad experience with being taken for granted by the woman whowanted the dresser. did she ask for it on Kikiji, or did you and some other stranger decided that was what was best to give her?

also, in some cases, people find it hard to feel humble about receiveing other people's used things. personally, I agree with you that they need to express some kind of thankfullness. some people have an entitled attitude and think that getting a donation of USED things is not good enough.

heck, this whole idea of begging online is so foreign to me, I can't wrap my mind around it. but, . . . my point is not to let one bad apple spoil the whole idea of helping others.

I sent a fairly big chunk of change to an online friend who was down on her luck never to hear one word of acknowlegment. as they say, "C'est la vie".


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## jaydee

ChristineNJ said:


> $999.00 for a used saddle.......crazy! You could buy a Tucker Saddle for that........which I think are the best Western Saddle you can buy!!


 Depends what you're buying and how much use its had. 
I can see Tucker saddles online for $1775.00 so if I got a lightly used one for $999 I'd be really pleased
I paid a $1000 for a lightly used English saddle that would have cost me over $3000 new. It's all relative


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## ChristineNJ

I did buy a beautiful Tucker saddle used for about $1,000. However, I resold it because I just don't line Western Saddles.......way too heavy. I ride Dressage now & have a really nice Passier Optimum & a PJ jumping saddle which I love, love, love.


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## ChristineNJ

Took a couple of months off from this forum......just can't believe that this thread is still ongoing!!:icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes:


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## jaydee

ChristineNJ said:


> Took a couple of months off from this forum......just can't believe that this thread is still ongoing!!:icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes:


It isn't a thread.
It's a Journal
They can run for as long as the person that starts them wants to keep them going
They also have slightly different rules applied to them


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## Hoofpic

ChristineNJ said:


> $999.00 for a used saddle.......crazy! You could buy a Tucker Saddle for that........which I think are the best Western Saddle you can buy!!


Are you talking about the saddle I bought in October? It was actually brand new.


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## Hoofpic

Right now it's winter so things are a bit slower, but I tell you I am already so excited for the Spring and Summer next year and what it will bring me. 

2017 is going to be an even busier year for me, I have many goals. 

Today I got invited to my vet's seminar on Jan 26th, they will have these topics. I RSVP'ed. It's free. I think I will learn a lot. I am dying to go to more shows, clinics, seminars etc.


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## farmpony84

.....I just paid $1000 for a used ranch saddle...... Of course it's in really good shape and the brand I bought sells for $4500 new...


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> please don't get too hardened by this one bad experience with being taken for granted by the woman whowanted the dresser. did she ask for it on Kikiji, or did you and some other stranger decided that was what was best to give her?
> 
> also, in some cases, people find it hard to feel humble about receiveing other people's used things. personally, I agree with you that they need to express some kind of thankfullness. some people have an entitled attitude and think that getting a donation of USED things is not good enough.
> 
> heck, this whole idea of begging online is so foreign to me, I can't wrap my mind around it. but, . . . my point is not to let one bad apple spoil the whole idea of helping others.
> 
> I sent a fairly big chunk of change to an online friend who was down on her luck never to hear one word of acknowlegment. as they say, "C'est la vie".


Thanks. I didn't let it get to me too much. I was a bit annoyed but I got past it. Some people are just like that, not much we can do. At the end of the day, I was still able to help someone out with something that they needed and that's all that matters.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> 2017 is going to be an even busier year for me, I have many goals.


You should share your goals with us! I love reading New Year's goal posts.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> You should share your goals with us! I love reading New Year's goal posts.


Well I try not to set too many goals with Fly, but I am so eager to attend more shows and clinics. It looks like my first one (seminar) will be in January. I was very happy when I saw the invite and immediately RSVP'ed.

I am already excited for the Mane Event next year again in Red Deer and one of my barn friends said they would come with me this time. They might not go all 4 days like I did last year but at least I will have some company. I was extremely tired when I went this year driving almost 3 hours every day for 4 days straight. So if I can have a friend come along, it will cut my driving time. 

I'm still hoping that I can get in with a saddle fitter/maker and have a tour and brief rundown of saddle fitting and making. When I go to the Mane Event this year, I will be spending a lot more time talking with the fitters, and even to the people in the bit and bridle kiosks, stirrups, etc. 

I went to a lot of shows and clinics last year and I am very happy, but this year I will be attending more and expanding my horizons a bit.

Yes I will be back trail riding in May when the place opens up again come Spring. I really enjoy the drive up there, it's breathtaking. I am already so excited about this, my friends will come along too this time.

I would like to attend a one day clinic at some point in 2017 with Fly. I think it would be a great experience for the both of us.


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## StephaniHren

Those sound like some good goals for yourself! Shows and clinics are a great way to learn more, and from what I've seen of the place you went trail riding it was very beautiful and worth doing.

What about your goals for Fly? I know you said you try not to set too many for her, but it'd be cool to hear how you want her training to progress over the next year.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Those sound like some good goals for yourself! Shows and clinics are a great way to learn more, and from what I've seen of the place you went trail riding it was very beautiful and worth doing.
> 
> What about your goals for Fly? I know you said you try not to set too many for her, but it'd be cool to hear how you want her training to progress over the next year.


I miss the trail riding place from this past Fall, it's so nice up there. 

Goals for Fly, well I can't look too far ahead and remember i have to take things as they come along and go with the flow (like Golden kept saying), but getting her to use her hind end more is what I would like to see and what Im currently working on with her doing logs, ground poles, backing up work etc. I think this will be critical for her because then she wouldn't have to use her front end as much when being ridden and won't get as soar. 

The best way to teach her to use her hind end more is to work them. Over the past couple weeks I've been lunging her over the poles, I find it much more effective and quicker than just leading her over them. She can't trot over too many poles at once (walking she is fine), so I've been placing 4 logs on one part of the circle, then another 4 on the other side of the circle. This way it breaks it up for her. Then I will usually have one log just under a foot off the ground so she has to lift her legs higher. 

This is why I've went from leading her over the logs to lunging her over them, because it's much quicker. I don't particularly want to do these excersizes for 30mins (as I'm sure she doesn't either), we would both get bored. So by setting things up on a lunge circle, she would get a lot more steps and repetitions over the logs than if I was leading her over it.


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## greentree

You are not riding her over them?


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## Hoofpic

I have a fun video for you guys from Christmas day, my friend and I had our mares in playing. They are herd mates and Fly is above her. I watch these two quite a bit and it's amazing how reactive my friend's mare was to Fly. As you saw, when Fly ran, she ran, if Fly spooks, she spooks. My friends mare is a Tennessee walker, so she usually doesn't run or trot. 

We were in here for about 20mins but I just got a couple short clips.


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## Hoofpic

I was not going to confess, because this is a bit OT, but one of my goals for 2017 and moving on is to become a better photographer and videographer and take things to the next level. IMO, this will be very rewarding for me because I can permanently apply this to many areas in my life. This is not something that is going to interfere with my horse education (not even close) but it will go along side it. Further building my horse knowledge is still the #1 thing for me.

I look back to when I was in my 20's and even though I went through many years of on and off depression, went to peer support groups, counselling and so fourth, the one thing that I deeply regret NOT doing with my life is not spending the time to seriously get good at what interested me and turn it into a skill that I can look back years down the road and give myself a big pat on the back and be proud of myself. I did persue things here and there but I never was able to get over the hump. Well this year I said enough and I want to challenge myself to reach a new level that I haven't before in my life. 

Now, I turn 36 next month and I am not getting any younger in life, I need to really push new boundaries and new levels in life in terms of where I am going. I just don't want to be 40 or 50 years old, look back at my life and not have something that I am really proud of accomplishing in my life.


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## Hoofpic

Can I ask you guys something? How much do YOU guys put aside each month for your horses's savings fund? Just curious.


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## weeedlady

I put an extra $120 per month in my horse account. That's on top of what I spend for board, hooves, supplements, tack, etc etc etc.


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## Hoofpic

weedlady said:


> I put an extra $120 per month in my horse account. That's on top of what I spend for board, hooves, supplements, tack, etc etc etc.


Thanks  Good to know :cowboy:


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> You are not riding her over them?


Not right now, aside from a couple days, it's been too cold out here the past couple weeks. It will warm up this Friday though and hoping to get on her.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> Not right now, aside from a couple days, it's been too cold out here the past couple weeks. It will warm up this Friday though and hoping to get on her.


Wait, so when was the last time you were on her?


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## Hoofpic

About 2.5 weeks ago, why?


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> About 2.5 weeks ago, why?


That just seems like a really long time to me.


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## jaydee

2.5 weeks is a long time!!!
Most of my horses don't get ridden from the end of December until mid March. I'm not a fan of cold weather riding so once it drops below zero and its snowy and icy underfoot they get a break. Doesn't hurt them.


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## StephaniHren

jaydee said:


> Most of my horses don't get ridden from the end of December until mid March.


I think this might be a cultural/area thing. I can't keep my horses at home where I live and I pay enough for board for my horse that I'd have to be sick and/or dying not to make it out for a ride at least a couple of times a week. Most of the other boarders feel the same way. Plus the weather doesn't get too cold here, comparatively (mid twenties during the day, at the lowest, but usually thirties) and we have a couple of indoor arenas, so ice isn't ever really a problem.

To each their own!


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## jaydee

I don't think its cultural. We used to ride all through the winter in the UK because the weather there is usually so much milder. I have to trailer to an indoor and pay per session - most of them are quite empty as the serious competition people here decamp to Florida and the like for the season but as I don't enjoy riding in sub zero weather I don't bother


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## gottatrot

I agree that a lot has to do with the situation you have and the weather rather than how much you pay or the culture. We don't have an indoor arena, so if we have hard rain and storms for a week straight it might be a week or two between rides. My horses would be kept in a nice situation whether they were ridden or not, so the cost is irrelevant to me. Where @Hoofpic lives is so bitterly cold. Many people don't have indoor arenas either and the footing can get too bad to ride outside.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> 2.5 weeks is a long time!!!
> Most of my horses don't get ridden from the end of December until mid March. I'm not a fan of cold weather riding so once it drops below zero and its snowy and icy underfoot they get a break. Doesn't hurt them.


My friends at the barn won't even go to the barn when it's this cold, they just don't find it enjoyable. I don't either, but it's so worth putting up with the cold just to be around the horses. There is not a single place that I would rather be than at the barn. 

I find when it's this cold, sure I may not be able to brush Fly nearly as much in the winter (especially when snow is on her coat, I try not to mess up her insulation), but their hoofs need to be cleaned out even more because the snow turns into ice, then a bit snowball and it will put pressure on their feet and not comfortable for them. So when it's this cold, I try to pick Fly's hooves at the least every second day.

I know the lesson horses at the barn get a nice and well deserved break in the winters. :faceshot:

I like seeing the horses in the winters with their bushy bear coats haha.


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## egrogan

My personal cutoff for being comfortable riding is probably between 15-20*F (really, if I'm being honest, closer to the 20*F mark). Below that, I find it too uncomfortable. I'd probably never ride if I lived in @Hoofpic's region! We do have an indoor, and it's situated on the property to maximize soaking up sunshine in the winter, but even just doing a slow trot in there the other day when it was 15*F made my eyes water from the cold hitting my face as we moved. If there's no ice, I'd prefer to ride outside even at that temperature- I put a quarter sheet on my horse and riding in the woods seems to offer a little protection from the cold in the way a wide open space doesn't.

I do still try to get to the barn every couple of days even in the extreme cold because I blanket and my horse gets itchy underneath if she doesn't get groomed. We moved barns this fall, and one thing I didn't think of until the winter is that the new barn has synthetic (recycled rubber) footing in the indoor, whereas our old barn had sand footing- I forgot how much horses appreciate a good roll in sand during these long icy months. Unfortunately there's no rolling allowed in the rubber footing, and I don't think it would be that satisfying for the horses anyway. I feel bad that she can't get that satisfaction of a good sandy roll right now!


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I think this might be a cultural/area thing. I can't keep my horses at home where I live and I pay enough for board for my horse that I'd have to be sick and/or dying not to make it out for a ride at least a couple of times a week. Most of the other boarders feel the same way. Plus the weather doesn't get too cold here, comparatively (mid twenties during the day, at the lowest, but usually thirties) and we have a couple of indoor arenas, so ice isn't ever really a problem.
> 
> To each their own!


I never said I'm not going to the barn this winter, I'm still going 5 days a week (though last week was 3 because I was so busy), when it's too cold to ride, I do logs with Fly. 

I think she's getting better in getting over those 1ft high logs, though she can still be a bit lazy in picking up those back legs. 

I'm wondering if I should try going back to spreading out the logs in a straight line (as opposed to a lunge circle). Fly still stumbles every now and then or steps on a log. 

Last time I put up two 1ft high logs 180 degrees apart, then a set of 3 logs spread far enough apart so i can lunge her over them, then another set of 3 logs 180 degrees from that. She does fine at a walk but if I trot her over them, it might be too much for her because she doesn't completely have her rhythm yet. I think she's still fairly new to logs, it's not something that she has had a lot of work on.


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## Rainaisabelle

Maybe I'm misreading, so you will lunge her in this weather but you won't ride her ?


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## PoptartShop

If you can lunge her, definitely can hop in the saddle & ride!


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## farmpony84

StephaniHren said:


> I think this might be a cultural/area thing. I can't keep my horses at home where I live and I pay enough for board for my horse that I'd have to be sick and/or dying not to make it out for a ride at least a couple of times a week. Most of the other boarders feel the same way. Plus the weather doesn't get too cold here, comparatively (mid twenties during the day, at the lowest, but usually thirties) and we have a couple of indoor arenas, so ice isn't ever really a problem.
> 
> To each their own!


Mine haven't been ridden in a couple weeks. It has more to do with the fact that I work 40 hours a week and it's almost dark by 530 when I get home and don't have lights. My ring is a soppy wet mess and it's cold outside. If the weather is pretty-ish and the ring is fairly dry - I'll ride. Of course, I keep my horses at my house and I don't have a couple of indoor arenas! (insert lucky witch here)....

Also... There is nothing wrong with giving horses a break in the winter or even in the summer. There is nothing wrong with not riding if you are cold... there is nothing wrong with not going to the barn 5 days a week if you board. I have my horses at my house and take care of them daily so don't have the luxury of being too cold or sick or miserable to go out to the horses. Although I've been taking care of them on my own for so many years that it would feel weird not to see them everyday. I have with drawel when I go on a weekend trip!


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## jaydee

You keep a lot warmer lungeing than you do riding, especially your feet, because you're moving about. Huge difference. My son and I rode at an Arabian barn that had an indoor one winter to keep ourselves 'riding fit' - a lot of the horses there were stabled 24/7 because owners won't risk them getting injured on icy paddocks, most were only lunged.
I get as much pleasure out of just spending time with my horses as I do riding them.
Really though its down to the individual what they do or don't do with their horses, as long as they're not abusing them its none of my business if they ride or don't ride.


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## PoptartShop

I feel that riding definitely warms me up more than lunging. I'd rather be moving in the saddle than standing on cold ground. LOL.
Not a bad idea to hop in the saddle though, HP. Plus you don't want to get too rusty. 

It can be harder to ride in the winter, of course.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Maybe I'm misreading, so you will lunge her in this weather but you won't ride her ?


Yes but I lunge her at a walk mostly to warm her up. I only do a few circles at a trot or until I notice when she is picking up her feet better and going more smoothly over the logs.


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> If you can lunge her, definitely can hop in the saddle & ride!


I plan to get on her this weekend, it is -5 on Friday and it looks like it's going to warm up for a good while. Great relief for my barn friends, they can come back out again.


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## StephaniHren

jaydee said:


> I don't think its cultural. We used to ride all through the winter in the UK because the weather there is usually so much milder.





gottatrot said:


> I agree that a lot has to do with the situation you have and the weather rather than how much you pay or the culture.


By cultural I just meant that where I'm at, since the weather doesn't get 100% terribly cold, I have the benefit of knowing that other people are going to be out at the barn riding whenever I go out, so there's something of a barn culture/social aspect to it. I do think it would take away some of the fun of riding if no one was around every time I went out nobody was around to talk to, like in Hoofpic's case (though I know many don't feel this way; to me riding is partially about talking to people who share my same hobby and I like chatting with everyone while I tack up or cool down my horse). And I know for me that the financial part definitely crosses my mind on the occasional day where I'm dragging ("yeah, but think about how much you pay for board, you bought the darn horse, time to go outside even though the house is really cozy"). :lol:



farmpony84 said:


> Mine haven't been ridden in a couple weeks. It has more to do with the fact that I work 40 hours a week and it's almost dark by 530 when I get home and don't have lights. ... Also... There is nothing wrong with giving horses a break in the winter or even in the summer. There is nothing wrong with not riding if you are cold... there is nothing wrong with not going to the barn 5 days a week if you board.


I wasn't saying that there was anything wrong with any of that. I was just surprised that Hoofpic hasn't been riding, since I know he's been at the barn working with Fly on the lunge and over ground poles and things like that.



jaydee said:


> You keep a lot warmer lungeing than you do riding, especially your feet, because you're moving about.


Each person's different. I know for me this is 100% false. My whole body gets much warmer when I'm riding than when I'm lunging.


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## PoptartShop

Me too, @StephaniHren. I am way warmer riding because I'm using more of my body than just lunging!


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## Hoofpic

This year is unfortunately going to be different for me, I am going to be that much busier with work. So I need to simplify my life and I need to weed out any interests that I only enjoy on occasion because I just don't have the time for it anymore. 

Work and horses pretty much take up 95% of my time. You can pretty much count me out for any social meetups this year, I don't have time for them. The only social meetups I will go to are clinics and horse shows. 

I still love hockey but ever since Feb of last year, I just haven't had the time to follow or watch much of it. I need to get back to my horse audiobooks and I don't see how I'm going to have time become better behind the camera. The only time I'm really going to have time for photos is at the barn, which is fine because horses are really the only thing I enjoy taking pictures of these days. But I have to be careful and make sure I keep a good balance and not get too carried away to the point where I get distracted away from horses.


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## Hoofpic

I've been wanting to ask this for awhile, do you guys think that horses know the word "yes"? I know it may be a silly question but I've seen horses shake their head when they want something. The chestnut in Fly's herd will shake his head when he sees me with food in my hand lol. He just stands there and watches me and shakes his head. It's quite funny actually.


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## Greenmeadows

I don't think they actually understand what it means, but they can be taught to do it as a trick.  Sometimes they do it as a natural behavior, but I'm not sure why. My horses will do it if they taste something different. :lol:


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> do you guys think that horses know the word "yes"? I know it may be a silly question but I've seen horses shake their head when they want something. The chestnut in Fly's herd will shake his head when he sees me with food in my hand lol.


I think horses only know what we teach them. They throw their head because they tried it once and it got them attention, so they keep doing it. It's not that they're thinking "yes", it's that they've learned that nodding their head sometimes gets them what they want, so they keep doing it in hopes that it will work again and you'll give them the food.

My horse knows some words (walk, whoa, easy, hey, over), but even then its partially about the words I use and partially about the context/the tone of my voice. Nonetheless, all the words he does know are words that I've taught him.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I think horses only know what we teach them. They throw their head because they tried it once and it got them attention, so they keep doing it. It's not that they're thinking "yes", it's that they've learned that nodding their head sometimes gets them what they want, so they keep doing it in hopes that it will work again and you'll give them the food.
> 
> My horse knows some words (walk, whoa, easy, hey, over), but even then its partially about the words I use and partially about the context/the tone of my voice. Nonetheless, all the words he does know are words that I've taught him.


I think you are right except this boy already knew how to shake his head haha. It's just funny to watch. He's also very animated and has a very funny personality.


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## Hoofpic

I found this tonight on Facebook.

Winter Colic in Horses: Four simple rules for preventing winter colic | EQUUS Magazine

I didn't know horses drink less water in the winter, even with heated water. Horses are more vulnerable to colic in the winter?


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## Hoofpic

I rode Fly today and no reaction from her at all when cinching her up, yes this is what I want to see!

I still dont know if she just needed time off to recover or if it was behavourial.


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## Hoofpic




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## Hoofpic

Can I ask a question? 

How has having your horse(s) changed you as a person? How have they made you different and for the better? What motivate do they give you now that you lacked before?


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## farmpony84

Hoofpic said:


> Can I ask a question?
> 
> How has having your horse(s) changed you as a person? How have they made you different and for the better? What motivate do they give you now that you lacked before?


I think a lot of my teenage and young adult decisions were based on my horse. Some of that, I think was good. I never went out and partied, I didn't (still don't) drink or do drugs of any sort. I was always very athletic because of the horses. Of course, video games were limited to the arcades unless you had an Atari back then, which I did not. So boys were important but not so much as a horse. Clothes were important, but as a teenager, my horse was my responsibility and since I only made $100 per paycheck and he cost me $11 per week on food, $20 per week on riding lessons and I had to set aside the money for shows, farriers, and shots each month... I didn't get to buy fancy clothes and make-up. So in that sense, I think I was more mature than a lot of my friends.

But then I decided to really stick it to my parents because they refused to pay to send my horse to college with me so I stayed home and it took me years to finish my degree because I did it just a few classes at a time while I worked full time to pay for my horse habit. I also broke up with some guys when they complained about the horse. Which was a good thing because looking back, they didn't amount to much!

Now that I have 6 horses at the house I once figured out the cost for feeding them and then I added in the 25k for the horse trailer, the 46k for the barn, the amount of money the land cost... and I see my friends in their really cute houses in subdivisions with their fancy cars and their really nice furniture and high dollar purses and once in a while I'm just a tad bit jealous... But then I climb into my dirty old pick-up truck wearing my favorite blue jeans and I look out at my land and my home and my family and I think... How lucky am I? Yeah, their house is bigger and their car is nicer but... Look what we have....

So... I think they've made me healthier because I feed them twice a day, clean their stalls, fix their fences, ride them, etc...Which makes me more energetic... So in the long run... we are better for it...

My kid sometimes feels sorry for himself because he has no friends in the area. Just the dogs, the pig, the horses... But he has a dirt bike and a rhino, a canoe and a boat... He drives a pick-up truck at 13 and has his video games... Plus, because he lives in the middle of nowhere I pay a gazillion dollars a year for baseball teams and lessons... So.. .He may not see it now, but when he gets older... He'll know what he has... AND... When he's ready to date... The horses will draw the girls in


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## tinyliny

but, from your pictures, @farmpony, you've got a pretty sweet place. I think you done well.


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## jaydee

I don't know what it's like to not have horses so I can't really answer you hoofpic. I had a few years when I didn't own one when I lived in London but was still able to ride but that's about it
I think I'd have had a lot less stress, a better career and more money in the bank without horses but I can't imagine life without them!!!


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## Hoofpic

farmpony84 said:


> But then I decided to really stick it to my parents because they refused to pay to send my horse to college with me so I stayed home and it took me years to finish my degree because I did it just a few classes at a time while I worked full time to pay for my horse habit. * I also broke up with some guys when they complained about the horse. Which was a good thing because looking back, they didn't amount to much!*


Good choice. Their loss. 



> Now that I have 6 horses at the house I once figured out the cost for feeding them and then I added in the 25k for the horse trailer, the 46k for the barn, the amount of money the land cost... and I see my friends in their really cute houses in subdivisions with their fancy cars and their really nice furniture and high dollar purses and once in a while I'm just a tad bit jealous... But then I climb into my dirty old pick-up truck wearing my favorite blue jeans and I look out at my land and my home and my family and I think... How lucky am I? Yeah, their house is bigger and their car is nicer but... Look what we have....


I feel the exact same way. I would much rather be at the barn and be around dusty horses, than inside a nice house with overpriced furniture. I can't stand the conjested city, I hate traffic and don't like big crowds. I know this may sound wierd but I have much more fun driving on the gravel roads to the barn than I do in the city.



> So... I think they've made me healthier because I feed them twice a day, clean their stalls, fix their fences, ride them, etc...Which makes me more energetic... So in the long run... we are better for it...


I agree.




> My kid sometimes feels sorry for himself because he has no friends in the area. Just the dogs, the pig, the horses... But he has a dirt bike and a rhino, a canoe and a boat... He drives a pick-up truck at 13 and has his video games... Plus, because he lives in the middle of nowhere I pay a gazillion dollars a year for baseball teams and lessons... So.. .He may not see it now, but when he gets older... He'll know what he has... AND... When he's ready to date... The horses will draw the girls in


It's hard to make good friends these days. I would rather have no friends than 3 bad friends.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I don't know what it's like to not have horses so I can't really answer you hoofpic. I had a few years when I didn't own one when I lived in London but was still able to ride but that's about it
> I think I'd have had a lot less stress, a better career and more money in the bank without horses but I can't imagine life without them!!!


You think life is more stressful with horses? Well there is no animal like the horse.

Owning a cat or dog just ain't the same.


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## farmpony84

Hoofpic said:


> You think life is more stressful with horses? Well there is no animal like the horse.
> 
> Owning a cat or dog just ain't the same.


But I must admit, I'm not sure I'd want to live without a cat or a dog either!


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## Hoofpic

farmpony84 said:


> But I must admit, I'm not sure I'd want to live without a cat or a dog either!


I could. I'm not into cats and I like dogs, but not into them as much I once was.


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## jaydee

I have one dog that causes me a huge amount of stress, the other 3 not so much.
As for the horses - some of them are more stress makers than others, I currently have a couple that seem to spend their entire time doing stupid stuff, one I can't trust to leave in the paddock unless someone's around because you never know when she's going to decide to hop out and go visiting neighbors.
Apart from that I'm just something of a worrywart where horse are concerned!!


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## tinaev

This is actually a topic I've been giving a lot of thought lately. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what happened when but I feel like I'm a better person with a horse. I have more motivation to do things in life, I now have goals and don't waste as much money.

I'm a lot more confident in all situations than I was before I had a horse. Rio needs a strong hand and a take no nonsense attitude to handle. I was very timid when I got him and quickly realized I had to change or we'd never get anywhere. He brought out some tenacity in me as well. I've never been athletic or outdoorsy and I still am not but I don't mind getting dirty now and I actually started exercising to be a better rider. 

As Rio ages and I start to see a future without him I need to decide if I want to take on another horse when he is gone. In a lot of ways life would be easier without a horse to worry about but I don't want to slip back to being the person I used to be. So, if it all works out, when he is gone (hopefully he'll stick around for several more years!!) I think I will get another horse. That prospect is kind of terrifying though as I don't want to buy the wrong horse. I got too lucky with Rio (free horse I took on with no history) and I'm sure that won't happen again lol.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I have one dog that causes me a huge amount of stress, the other 3 not so much.
> As for the horses - some of them are more stress makers than others, I currently have a couple that seem to spend their entire time doing stupid stuff, one I can't trust to leave in the paddock unless someone's around because you never know when she's going to decide to hop out and go visiting neighbors.
> Apart from that I'm just something of a worrywart where horse are concerned!!


I've always wondered what it's like to own more than one horse. I bet it's an amazing feeling. :smile:


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## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> This is actually a topic I've been giving a lot of thought lately. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what happened when but I feel like I'm a better person with a horse. I have more motivation to do things in life, I now have goals and don't waste as much money.
> 
> I'm a lot more confident in all situations than I was before I had a horse. Rio needs a strong hand and a take no nonsense attitude to handle. I was very timid when I got him and quickly realized I had to change or we'd never get anywhere. He brought out some tenacity in me as well. I've never been athletic or outdoorsy and I still am not but I don't mind getting dirty now and I actually started exercising to be a better rider.
> 
> As Rio ages and I start to see a future without him I need to decide if I want to take on another horse when he is gone. In a lot of ways life would be easier without a horse to worry about but I don't want to slip back to being the person I used to be. So, if it all works out, when he is gone (hopefully he'll stick around for several more years!!) I think I will get another horse. That prospect is kind of terrifying though as I don't want to buy the wrong horse. I got too lucky with Rio (free horse I took on with no history) and I'm sure that won't happen again lol.


I agree with you that having a horse gives you more motivation in doing things and doing things better in life.


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## Hoofpic

My work bought a drone (top of the line) and my boss gave it to me last week to practice with it.

Now, I have gotten quite comfortable with it and the first thing was i wanted to use it at the barn. I used it at the barn today outside flys field but I was at the outter edge of the barn property and I jist flew the drone at the edge of the barn. It got Flysh herds attention but I made sure not to get too close to them.
They were fine, they just watched.

Now, I would love to use it all around the barn but my friend said to ask the BO first and after some thinking I changed my mind as i dont think it would be a good idea. We wont know how every horse is going to react and jist in case some run, you dont want anyone to slip as there is snow stil on the ground.

Did I make the right decision? Perhaps using the drone at the barn is not a good idea.

I know that apparently one summer a hot air balloon was in the sky and landed in one of the pasture fields. Thehorses were flipping out and thankfuly no one got hurt. But i know the BO and my trainer were not too happy about a hot air balloon landing in one of the pastures.

Mind you i know the size of a hot air balloon is alot bigger than a drone, but still, its the sound of the drone that gets horses attention.


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## egrogan

I had one strange experience hacking out when I suddenly heard a whirring/buzzing sound and looked up to see a drone overhead. I'm terrible at judging distances, but I'd say the closest it got to us was maybe the equivalent of a three story building above us on the ground?

My horse didn't react to it at all, but I was hyper conscious about it being there and it made me really nervous while I was riding. I didn't know WHY it was there and it really freaked me out. Only the next day did I find out that it was being used by developers to make a promo video about the neighbor's property. I'll have to see if I can find it, you can see us riding across the hayfield in the last 5 seconds of the promo.

I don't think we know enough yet about how the legal system will handle drones and privacy. But I personally did not appreciate how invasive my experience was nor that they had no obligation to ask my permission to film. I imagine it would be best to discuss with BO first.


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## weeedlady

I have to agree^^^no drones. I don't like the thought of anyone being able to fly around taking pictures without my knowledge.


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## Hoofpic

weedlady said:


> I have to agree^^^no drones. I don't like the thought of anyone being able to fly around taking pictures without my knowledge.


My BO is fine with me taking pictures of his property (he knows I won't do anything with it), but it comes down to whether any of the horses will be at risk and I would say its possible because you just won't know how horses may react. All it takes is one who flips out and go nuts and the rest follow.

I know in the summer when I borrowed my trainers big bouncy ball and I asked her if I could bring it with me to the outdoor arena with Fly and she said yes but just to be careful because there are many other horses nearby who may not like the ball. She just said to put it away right after because we don't need to risk having a horse go through a fence. 

Horses live in the moment and we just can't predict how they will react.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I had one strange experience hacking out when I suddenly heard a whirring/buzzing sound and looked up to see a drone overhead. I'm terrible at judging distances, but I'd say the closest it got to us was maybe the equivalent of a three story building above us on the ground?
> 
> My horse didn't react to it at all, but I was hyper conscious about it being there and it made me really nervous while I was riding. I didn't know WHY it was there and it really freaked me out. Only the next day did I find out that it was being used by developers to make a promo video about the neighbor's property. I'll have to see if I can find it, you can see us riding across the hayfield in the last 5 seconds of the promo.
> 
> I don't think we know enough yet about how the legal system will handle drones and privacy. But I personally did not appreciate how invasive my experience was nor that they had no obligation to ask my permission to film. I imagine it would be best to discuss with BO first.


Sorry to hear what happened to you, I agree that many do tend to violate other peoples privacy with drones and that's not right. 

I know my BO isn't concerned about privacy, but more so the safety of his horses and all the horses on his property. 

I mean, sure deer walk by the barn deep in the field every now and then, even cows too, or big flocks of birds pass through, but that's unavoidable. I know he likes to see how the horses react because its nature. But having a drone fly in the air is completely avoidable and IMO after some thinking, I think I made the right decision in that I didn't ask him because I don't think it would have been acceptable. Why risk for something bad to happen if I can avoid it right?

I know he doesn't mind me taking pictures and videos at the barn, but that's completely different and there is no risk involved.


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## Hoofpic

I notice the broomstick method is workin on my stirrups. I would love to have the texas twist done to them again, but for $50 and seeing how they would need to be re-done every now and then, I just don't see it as money well spent. 

So I did what you guys suggested, the broom stick method. I took the outside part of each stirrup and turned it all the way to the back and did it once more so that it was a full turn in the stirrups. Then stuck one of the wood sticks that we use for our noodles and it holds well. So each time I put the saddle back, I do the twist again and put the wood stick through. It seems to be holding the twist pretty good, I wouldn't mind making it permanent though as I'm sure it will get loose again over time.


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## StephaniHren

Are you using water? Water tends to make the broomstick process more permanent.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Are you using water? Water tends to make the broomstick process more permanent.


You mean water the stirrups and fenders? Isn't that bad for the leather?


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## Hoofpic

Well Fly is up next to get her teethfinished, here we go!

She knows, she hears the metal file and has beem watching the other horses get worked on


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## Hoofpic

I need to work on Fly having better manners with others, whether its my trainer or the dentist. We got her teeth fully finished (and yes she was better today that the last visit in November), but she was still being rude and trying to run my trainer and dentist over.

Was she better than last time? Yes, but she was still being rude.

She was night and day better and more relaxed near the end though when we had the twitch on her.

The twitch was hard to get on her, she would charge forward then swing her hind end around.

She was acting as if she was going to die but my trainer just said shes just being a brat.

Apparently according to the dentist, he truely believes that Fly has had a twitch on her before (even though I told him that she most likely hasnt). I found this interesting.

My trainer told me not to get too worked up over it, cause she knows this is something that I want to address. She brought up the age factor again, in that Fly is still young, but I told her i dont want age to be an excuse for why i cant get fly to have better manners around others. 

I told her that Fly doesnt test me like she did before and she doesnt pull any of that nonsense with me. Which is true, she doesnt fight me anymore like we did before.

My dentist said its a good idea to ride her right before getting her teeth done and ride her hard so she will be more relaxed and tired when he works on her. That way she wont have all this energy inside her from standing and waiting to have her teeth done. So i will do this for next time.

He wants to check up on her back teeth again in 6 months to make sure they are wearing evenly. Whats happened was her back lower teeth (the second from the back on each side) were growing outwards so when she would chew and close the mouth, those two teeth were digging into the sides of her mouth. He said hes not sure if its from the way she chews but thats why he wants to followup in 6months.

Fingers crossed.


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## EliRose

My vet/dentist won't lay a float horse that's been difficult with him before unless they're sedated. He's a pretty holistic guy but he doesn't want to be struggling with a horse while wielding a power tool.

IMO sedation is much better than a twitch in this kind of situation, causes much less stress to everyone involved.

Equine Dentistry: Sedation or No? - HolisticHorse.com


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## gottatrot

I agree with @EliRose. I've only had one vet ever try to float teeth without sedating, and he wasn't able to do a very good job because my horse was too fidgety. He was very calm and kept my horse as calm as possible, but it was too much to ask her to keep her head down low while he rattled the file around on her teeth.

When horses are sedated the vet can get a very good, long look around and take his or her time working on all the issues. My horses end up sleepy and we look inside the mouth like this, with the vet showing me all the issues and explaining what she is doing to correct them.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> My vet/dentist won't lay a float horse that's been difficult with him before unless they're sedated. He's a pretty holistic guy but he doesn't want to be struggling with a horse while wielding a power tool.
> 
> IMO sedation is much better than a twitch in this kind of situation, causes much less stress to everyone involved.
> 
> Equine Dentistry: Sedation or No? - HolisticHorse.com


My BO just prefers to use a dentist who doesn't sedate, he's not big on vets for this reason alone. He feels the ones here put far too much emphasis on getting the job done as quick as possible with their power tools. 15mins tops. He said that he's seen it many times over the years and they just go in and finish the job and feels that files and rasps are better than power tools.

My dentist and trainer were talking about this same thing yesterday as well but I was hearing them in the background so I couldn't completely hear what they were saying but the dentist was mentioning why he preferred to not sedate a horse.

IMO, he did a good job yesterday and finished it. The problem wasn't getting Fly to stand when he had the file in her mouth and was working away (this she did pretty good), it's getting the speculum in her mouth and the twitch on her muzzle. 

It's just too bad Fly was being a brat about having the speculum in her mouth (though she was better than the last time) and then the twitch. My dentist said that he prefers to not have to use the twitch unless he has to.

But he said for now on, ride Fly hard and get her all sweaty before getting her teeth done or even checked up and she will be a lot more relaxed when he works on her, so she won't have all this energy inside her. I found this interesting but think he makes a good point.

When we were done, Fly was all sweaty, (anyone know why?), it immediately reminded me of when we trailered her to the barn, she was super sweaty when getting out. I think it's nerves. 

I learn a lot by watching the dentist work and talking to him and asking questions. I am glad that my BO tells me when he is out so that I can be there when he works on Fly. I ask the dentist questions and he doesn't seem to mind. I was watching him and he did good work with the file as he even got me to put my hand in Fly's mouth so I could feel the two teeth afterwards and compare it to before. 

I think my biggest issue is that I need to get Fly to smarten up and not be rude when having her teeth worked on or even looked at. She needs to have good manners and stand still. I know that even when I had the vet out at the old barn (they had to check her teeth and grabbed her tongue), she didn't like it at all and was a bit of a fight. I don't know how to do this, nor do I think it's exactly and overnight thing or a thing that I can just turn on with a light switch. Hence why my dentist told me to ride her hard before each visit and he just said that the issue was all manners related. If she had good manners with others, she would have just stood still.

Is this just an experience thing with Fly (now) only having her her teeth worked on 3 times in her life? My trainer and dentist says it's manners, and Fly needs to have better manners with anyone working on her. So this is on my shoulders to get Fly to have better manners with other people. It is my responsibility because I don't like it when I see my farrier correct Fly if she pins her ears at her (she doesn't anymore), but my farrier (from what I've seen so far and getting to know her a bit), she is a very good horse woman to learn from. Not only do I ask her questions, talk to her and watch her when she trims Fly, but I do the same when she works on other horses.


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## carshon

I have never had a horse that was not nervous about having their teeth floated. This is a very unnatural process, the speculum is a form of restraint that takes away one of the horses ways of defending themselves. 

Mild sedation is not a big deal and takes the edge off of my horses so they stand pretty well. 

As for riding her before - to truly make her tired you are going to have to ride her a long time and very assertively. 1 hour in the arena walking and trotting over poles is probably not going to tire a horse that is reasonably fit.

The other horses must be saints if they stand there without a twitch and get their teeth floated. I don't think my horses would stand for very long


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## Zexious

Fly was sweaty because she was nervous.
Why people are so opposed to sedation, I'll never know.


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## jaydee

I don't like to sedate horses for anything if I can avoid it because its more money and not totally risk free but I'd rather sedate than have a horse get stressed because they then remember it for the next time and so on and so on. Some you can sedate a few times and they realise its not going to hurt them and they never need it again. Willow's in her early 20's now and still has to be sedated for dental work, we had a pony on loan that was older than her and she always needed to be sedated. Lou, I anticipated troubles so I gave her some ACE (ACP) before the vet arrived the first two times and she now has no trouble with it at all, if I think she's looking tense I just use the clicker to get her focus back on me.


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## Hoofpic

I haven't booked with my chiro for a couple weeks now because I am just too busy. 

My chiro's receptionists are annoying me, they're calling me once a week seeing if I want to book for another appointment. I don't know of any chiro that does this.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I think my biggest issue is that I need to get Fly to smarten up and not be rude when having her teeth worked on or even looked at. She needs to have good manners and stand still. ... Hence why my dentist told me to ride her hard before each visit and he just said that the issue was all manners related. If she had good manners with others, she would have just stood still.


While I do think that you need to work on Fly's overall manners on the ground (both when you're alone and when you're with other people), I don't think this is a situation where Fly should be at fault. Honestly, it's pretty clear from her reaction (the nervous sweating) that the float was making her very, _very_ uncomfortable. Like @carshon said, floating is an unnatural process that makes almost all horses nervous. I agree with @Zexious and @jaydee on this one: if I have to choose between stressing my horse out to the point where they sweat from nerves or sedating them, I'll sedate every time.


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## tinyliny

when I was a child, our family dentist didn't beleive in giving novacain shots, unless you had a BIG cavity needing drilling. you can imagine how stressed I got about having ANY dental procedure.

your horse was not being either rude or a brat. please discard that sort of thinking, since it implies a kind of 'intention' on the horse that the horse is not mentally capable of having.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

The dentist that my barn uses doesn't sedate unless the horse is acting up, but it rarely happens because when he's the one doing their teeth as all but one of the horses are like putty in his hands. Even my fairly hot Arab that can be pretty hot will let this guy do whatever he wants.

I will say though, that I am not against sedation, and it sounds like it definitely would've helped Fly since it sounds like she was so stressed and nervous.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> I agree with @EliRose. I've only had one vet ever try to float teeth without sedating, and he wasn't able to do a very good job because my horse was too fidgety. He was very calm and kept my horse as calm as possible, but it was too much to ask her to keep her head down low while he rattled the file around on her teeth.
> 
> When horses are sedated the vet can get a very good, long look around and take his or her time working on all the issues. My horses end up sleepy and we look inside the mouth like this, with the vet showing me all the issues and explaining what she is doing to correct them.


So would it be too much to expect an older horse to stand still when they have a speculum put in their mouth?


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> I have never had a horse that was not nervous about having their teeth floated. This is a very unnatural process, the speculum is a form of restraint that takes away one of the horses ways of defending themselves.
> 
> Mild sedation is not a big deal and takes the edge off of my horses so they stand pretty well.
> 
> As for riding her before - to truly make her tired you are going to have to ride her a long time and very assertively. 1 hour in the arena walking and trotting over poles is probably not going to tire a horse that is reasonably fit.
> 
> The other horses must be saints if they stand there without a twitch and get their teeth floated. I don't think my horses would stand for very long


I think the twitch is worse than a speculum on a horse because it pinches their muzzle, but I'm not a horse. I'm sure horses find both a twitch or speculum equally nerve racking.

I heard somewhere that sedation is just not good for any horse and should only be used if needed.

Well my dentist said if I ride her before a visit, ride her hard, so lots of long trotting.

Well the other horses (from what I saw) weren't exactly saints (some fought and resisted) but none to the extent of Fly. 

Fly has had 3 visits so far with the dentist, can I expect her to get better and more comfortable over time?


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## Hoofpic

Zexious said:


> Fly was sweaty because she was nervous.
> Why people are so opposed to sedation, I'll never know.


Poor girl got so sweaty, I immediately put her back out (it was only -2C out) but I should have taken the time to dry her first. I figured I would put her back out because she was inside for long enough.

Today I went to the barn and notice her sweat spots (guessing they froze a bit lol), so I took her in and spent a good amount of time getting those spots out.

Perhaps I was too overly concerned over nothing? But better to be safe than sorry. I regret not drying her off yesterday before putting her back out.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> So would it be too much to expect an older horse to stand still when they have a speculum put in their mouth? ... Fly has had 3 visits so far with the dentist, can I expect her to get better and more comfortable over time?


It doesn't have anything to do with the age of the horse. The horse could be 3 or the horse could be 30, I don't think that standing for a teeth floating is something that should be forced. It's not a matter of training, IMO. And even if it is something you can train, I don't really think it's a fair expectation for most horses.


Hoofpic said:


> Poor girl got so sweaty, I immediately put her back out (it was only -2C out) but I should have taken the time to dry her first. I figured I would put her back out because she was inside for long enough.


Oof. I'd be less worried about occasional sedation and more worried about this.


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## edf

One thing to think about: how does the dentist approach your horse? I had to get the dentist out for just my horse due to weight issues- trying to rule things out. My horse can be very nervous on the cross ties- however, if I told my dentist that- he probably wouldn't believe me since she stood so well.

My dentist took the time to pet my horse, and went as far as rubbing his hands over her body- and down her dreaded back feet ( my horse has some issues with her back feet being touched) At first, she lifted them up in her unease, but he was slow and gentle, and was able to rub her hoofs with her feet on the ground. Then he spends time putting fingers in her mouth ( like how you ask the horse to open the mouth to place in a bit or to get a horse to take dewormers.) Then he starts the process. He is slow and sweet talks the horse the whole time. He actually floated her teeth with her not on the cross ties- and she stood ( tho I am sure if she was really fussy, she would have been on the cross ties).

Fly may not be as easy to have her teeth floated an dmay never be as easy, but th epoint I am making is if my equine dentist approached my horse differently, I think she would have been a train wreck.

As far as working her hard before hand- when I first got Zoe she was all fidgety, I'd pick her hoofs out after I was done working her. It may not have been the best- I was at the point where she was intimidating me and I didn't want to teach her that being all pully and ect with her feet meant she would not have them picked. When I waited til after I rode, getting her to lift her feet was easier- she was just calmer and therefore I had an easier time. I don't kno wabout working Fly hard to the point she is all sweaty, then going through a teeth float, but perhaps if you did work with her some, she may be a little easier. Maybe if you did ride her or lunge her, it could help. I agree with others, it will take a lot to wear a fit horse out, but in my experience, my horse was calmer with her back feet- which she hates- after I rode and didn't wear her out ( and trust me, I don't even make my horse break a sweat yet)

My opinion about the twitching- sometimes it is useful. Twitching the lip is safer than the ear. If my horse is a bit nervous, I play with her upper lip- pinch/message it gently, rub my finger over it- this may act either as a distraction or could trigger the release of endorphines in a horses brain, giving a calming effect. I'd look at is more as a tool versus a device of torture. Used right- it won't hurt a horse. However, even used right, the horse may not be comfortable with putting it on.

I am trying to think of exercises for you an dFly to help. I read you use a bit, so I know you can get her to open her mouth, so I don't know if just playing with her mouth would provide any help. I stick my fingers in my horses mouth as if I am putting a bit in and make her open her mouth, I move my horses lips to show her teeth and gently held them open... but nothing that really emulates preping for a teeth float.

Good luck.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> My BO just prefers to use a dentist who doesn't sedate, he's not big on vets for this reason alone. He feels the ones here put far too much emphasis on getting the job done as quick as possible with their power tools. 15mins tops. He said that he's seen it many times over the years and they just go in and finish the job and feels that files and rasps are better than power tools.
> 
> My dentist and trainer were talking about this same thing yesterday as well but I was hearing them in the background so I couldn't completely hear what they were saying but the dentist was mentioning why he preferred to not sedate a horse.
> 
> IMO, he did a good job yesterday and finished it. The problem wasn't getting Fly to stand when he had the file in her mouth and was working away (this she did pretty good), it's getting the speculum in her mouth and the twitch on her muzzle.
> 
> It's just too bad Fly was being a brat about having the speculum in her mouth (though she was better than the last time) and then the twitch. My dentist said that he prefers to not have to use the twitch unless he has to.
> 
> But he said for now on, ride Fly hard and get her all sweaty before getting her teeth done or even checked up and she will be a lot more relaxed when he works on her, so she won't have all this energy inside her. I found this interesting but think he makes a good point.
> 
> When we were done, Fly was all sweaty, (anyone know why?), it immediately reminded me of when we trailered her to the barn, she was super sweaty when getting out. I think it's nerves.
> 
> I learn a lot by watching the dentist work and talking to him and asking questions. I am glad that my BO tells me when he is out so that I can be there when he works on Fly. I ask the dentist questions and he doesn't seem to mind. I was watching him and he did good work with the file as he even got me to put my hand in Fly's mouth so I could feel the two teeth afterwards and compare it to before.
> 
> I think my biggest issue is that I need to get Fly to smarten up and not be rude when having her teeth worked on or even looked at. She needs to have good manners and stand still. I know that even when I had the vet out at the old barn (they had to check her teeth and grabbed her tongue), she didn't like it at all and was a bit of a fight. I don't know how to do this, nor do I think it's exactly and overnight thing or a thing that I can just turn on with a light switch. Hence why my dentist told me to ride her hard before each visit and he just said that the issue was all manners related. If she had good manners with others, she would have just stood still.
> 
> Is this just an experience thing with Fly (now) only having her her teeth worked on 3 times in her life? My trainer and dentist says it's manners, and Fly needs to have better manners with anyone working on her. So this is on my shoulders to get Fly to have better manners with other people. It is my responsibility because I don't like it when I see my farrier correct Fly if she pins her ears at her (she doesn't anymore), but my farrier (from what I've seen so far and getting to know her a bit), she is a very good horse woman to learn from. Not only do I ask her questions, talk to her and watch her when she trims Fly, but I do the same when she works on other horses.


FYI, dentists are more likely to go FASTER on a horse who is not sedated, because they're very tense. Even if your horse accepts the tools, they're going to be at least nervy.

Hoofpic, these are genuine question - what do you think twitches actually _do_? Do you know why twitches are used? I twitch mares when they get repro exams/ultrasounds for safety, and in other situations when the need arises, but I'm concerned that your trainer said "use a twitch" and you don't know what it does.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> Poor girl got so sweaty, I immediately put her back out (it was only -2C out) but I should have taken the time to dry her first. I figured I would put her back out because she was inside for long enough.
> 
> Today I went to the barn and notice her sweat spots (guessing they froze a bit lol), so I took her in and spent a good amount of time getting those spots out.
> 
> Perhaps I was too overly concerned over nothing? But better to be safe than sorry. I regret not drying her off yesterday before putting her back out.


Holy heck, you are lucky she is okay! NEVER turn out a wet horse in that temp! Rub her down first, that is not nice to do to poor Fly. Horses can catch a chill just like people, and it is _very _ difficult to get their body temp back up when it drops.


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## Zexious

^This.

Never, ever put a sweaty horse outside in freezing temps... or at all.

When I was in middle school, and competing/training seriously (well, as seriously as a middle schooler can xD) classes did not get out until 4:00. My stepdad picked me up around 5:00--my lesson began at 6:00. I had multiple a week, and one was a jumping lesson. The horse I lessoned on was often not clipped until late in the season and lived outside. There were times I was there until 10:00 with a blow dryer, ensuring my horse was not sweaty. 

My trainer would have had my head for that. 
Granted, it wasn't my horse, but I think the principle still applies.


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## Hoofpic

I've just been informed that Warwick will be up in my province in mid May of this year to do a clinic. I want to go but it's on a weekday so I will see if I can swing it. 

I will be going to the Mane Event again this year in Red Deer on all 4 days, not sure if he will be there though. Hoping. My barn friend said she will come with me but we will see.

I have my vet clinic this Saturday, I was going to go with a barn friend but from the sounds of it, she's not sure if she wants to go anymore, she said she will let me know on Friday. I'm getting a bit tired of my barn friends commiting and saying that they will go with me to a clinic or show when I tell them about it, then they back out last minute or they don't even tell me until the day before that they've changed their minds.

I just don't think they have the same motivation or interest as I do when it comes to going to these shows and clinics.

Even going back to last year when we tried scheduling a date for us to go trail riding (up where I took those pictures last Sept), but it never happened and that is why i just went on my own (and I ended up going 3 times), because didn't want to wait until this year and it's just so much easier arranging stuff on your own and going by yourself at times. Really, it should not have been that much work to schedule a trail ride for 5 people.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> It doesn't have anything to do with the age of the horse. The horse could be 3 or the horse could be 30, I don't think that standing for a teeth floating is something that should be forced. It's not a matter of training, IMO. And even if it is something you can train, I don't really think it's a fair expectation for most horses.
> 
> Oof. I'd be less worried about occasional sedation and more worried about this.


I understand but when I watched other horses get worked on, (even though they were all nervous and uncomfortable), they didn't charge forward or swing their hind end around like Fly did. A couple of them did have their moments though (so not saying that Fly was out of the ordinary). 

Like I said, Fly was better this time around than the previous and she had her moments where she was actually REALLY good, when the dentist had the file in her mouth and was working away, Fly was good and stood and we all kept telling her "good girl". In fact he was able to complete one side of her mouth all in one process. The dentist said that she was cooperating and it allowed for him to get in there and do what he had to do easier and quicker. Near the end when she had the twitch on her, Fly was relaxed and stood still, so I think we left things off on a good note, whereas the previous time we couldn't.

In November, I would say it took the dentist about 40mins to get half of the job done, but Fly was getting annoyed and he said he would come back to finish the job.

This week, to do the same amount of work, it only took 20mins, so that's a good sign!

I have a question though, why do people always prefer to float teeth while being in a stall with the horse? Why not the arena?


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## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> I have a question though, why do people always prefer to float teeth while being in a stall with the horse? Why not the arena?


I wouldn't say this is an "always." In the barns I've been at, I've never seen a horse floated in a stall or the arena. It's been done in the aisle with the best lighting, horses held with a regular leather halter and lead (not tied or cross-tied).

I could imagine that some people like the stall because the horse is essentially "trapped' and can't really move away from the procedure. I personally wouldn't want to be "trapped" in a stall with a horse on the verge of panicking though.

Another maybe, the stall may work for horses that respond strongly to sedation (though that's obviously not a factor in your situation). My mare takes only 1/4 of the sedation recommended for a horse her size because it affects her so strongly. The first time she was sedated after I bought her, vet started with a 1/2 dose since neither of us knew how she'd react to it, and she was almost on the ground. It was actually sort of dangerous to move her from the aisle to her stall because she was so "drunk," with her nose almost on the ground and her legs wobbly. In that instance, it would have been nice if she had already been in her stall. 

But bottom line...I'd say there's no "always" in caring for horses...


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Holy heck, you are lucky she is okay! NEVER turn out a wet horse in that temp! Rub her down first, that is not nice to do to poor Fly. Horses can catch a chill just like people, and it is _very _ difficult to get their body temp back up when it drops.


I didn't do it on purpose, I was just caught in the moment on what was going on and I completely overlooked the fact that she was sweaty and it's a mistake that I deeply regret making. I can honestly say that I always make sure that she is completely dry after I ride her before putting her back out and I would never intentionally do it. If anything, when I dry her off I am almost overboard with it. There are times where I don't even need to dry her off but I still do because I'm a bit overboard.

That's why I am glad I went out yesterday to check up on her and I was able to rub down those spots to get the cold sweat off of her. 

If I could apologize to Fly I would, but it's not something I did on purpose.



EliRose said:


> FYI, dentists are more likely to go FASTER on a horse who is not sedated, because they're very tense. Even if your horse accepts the tools, they're going to be at least nervy.
> 
> Hoofpic, these are genuine question - what do you think twitches actually _do_? Do you know why twitches are used? I twitch mares when they get repro exams/ultrasounds for safety, and in other situations when the need arises, but I'm concerned that your trainer said "use a twitch" and you don't know what it does.


I watched the dentist and he definitely did not rush or go fast with the job, he took his time and was very thorough.

I will admit, I don't know what a twitch does exactly. I have a general idea.

My trainer never said to use a twitch, the dentist said that he would. In fact my trainer said to the dentist from the visit in November that putting a twitch on her might not be the best idea because chances are she's most likely never had one on before and they asked me if she has and I said "most likely not" when I quickly flashed back to the previous owner. But after the visit this week, my dentist said that she definitely has had one on before. Not sure how he was able to tell because Fly has never even had her teeth checked before I got her.


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## jaydee

Twitches (used on the nose) are supposed to release endorphins - I'm not sure if there's any actual evidence to support that but since that should result in a 'feel good factor' for the horse you'd expect them to love having one on and I can't say that's something I've ever noticed. I do use one occasionally but I've had horses that needed one on for certain things like shots and blood tests get very difficult about being twitched.
I've never used one for dental work, I'd think it would get in the way too much


Re. Tinyliny's dental memories - we had a dentist when I was young that awful and even now I still have a real fear of going to get my teeth done - a bit like Fly, I start sweating the minute I enter the waiting room!!!


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## Hoofpic

edf said:


> One thing to think about: how does the dentist approach your horse? I had to get the dentist out for just my horse due to weight issues- trying to rule things out. My horse can be very nervous on the cross ties- however, if I told my dentist that- he probably wouldn't believe me since she stood so well.
> 
> My dentist took the time to pet my horse, and went as far as rubbing his hands over her body- and down her dreaded back feet ( my horse has some issues with her back feet being touched) At first, she lifted them up in her unease, but he was slow and gentle, and was able to rub her hoofs with her feet on the ground. Then he spends time putting fingers in her mouth ( like how you ask the horse to open the mouth to place in a bit or to get a horse to take dewormers.) Then he starts the process. He is slow and sweet talks the horse the whole time. He actually floated her teeth with her not on the cross ties- and she stood ( tho I am sure if she was really fussy, she would have been on the cross ties).


My dentist spent some time to rub her nose, talk to her etc to get her to relax, he did this each time he's worked with her. 



> Fly may not be as easy to have her teeth floated an dmay never be as easy, but th epoint I am making is if my equine dentist approached my horse differently, I think she would have been a train wreck.


Well I know even when I had the vet out last year at the old barn and she had to check her teeth, Fly resisted a bit but did eventually give in. She's not the easiest of horses when it comes to playing around in her mouth. 



> As far as working her hard before hand- when I first got Zoe she was all fidgety, I'd pick her hoofs out after I was done working her. It may not have been the best- I was at the point where she was intimidating me and I didn't want to teach her that being all pully and ect with her feet meant she would not have them picked. When I waited til after I rode, getting her to lift her feet was easier- she was just calmer and therefore I had an easier time. I don't kno wabout working Fly hard to the point she is all sweaty, then going through a teeth float, but perhaps if you did work with her some, she may be a little easier. Maybe if you did ride her or lunge her, it could help. I agree with others, it will take a lot to wear a fit horse out, but in my experience, my horse was calmer with her back feet- which she hates- after I rode and didn't wear her out ( and trust me, I don't even make my horse break a sweat yet)


Thanks for letting me know. I think I have myself to blame because both times that I had Fly's teeth worked on, I brought her in and she waited standing tied for her turn (which IMO was too long, last time was almost an hour, I eventually took her into the arena and did stuff with her), and this week it was 30-40mins. I know that's not a long time to have a horse standing tied but that time could be better used elsewhere before a teeth checkup. 

It was my fault because I should have taken Fly into the arena before she went in (I was going to but I didn't). Just something to get the energy out, get her distracted etc. But instead she just watched the other horses before her get worked on and she was only paying attention to that. She knew what exactly was going on, so maybe observing all that got her going before she even went in?



> My opinion about the twitching- sometimes it is useful. Twitching the lip is safer than the ear. If my horse is a bit nervous, I play with her upper lip- pinch/message it gently, rub my finger over it- this may act either as a distraction or could trigger the release of endorphines in a horses brain, giving a calming effect. I'd look at is more as a tool versus a device of torture. Used right- it won't hurt a horse. However, even used right, the horse may not be comfortable with putting it on.
> 
> I am trying to think of exercises for you an dFly to help. I read you use a bit, so I know you can get her to open her mouth, so I don't know if just playing with her mouth would provide any help. I stick my fingers in my horses mouth as if I am putting a bit in and make her open her mouth, I move my horses lips to show her teeth and gently held them open... but nothing that really emulates preping for a teeth float.
> 
> Good luck.


Actually this is what my trainer said too, the twitch releases endorphines. 

When my dentist put the speculum in Fly's mouth, he said to me "Oh, you must have been working with her" and I said "what do you mean?" He said, because it was easier to put the speculum in Fly's mouth this time around and that I must have been putting the bit in Fly's mouth since he was last out. 

I will admit, Fly is NIGHT and DAY BETTER in me bridling her now. She doesn't resist, fight or pull back. She is not the greatest though in having the bit taken out. I always slowly release it and don't take it out until she stops playing with it or fussing with her mouth and then I say "open" and she opens her mouth. But I'm not 100% convinced on whether she has caught on yet with my verbal que. She is much better today than months ago in having the bit taken out, but still room for improvement. 

If you can think of any excersizes that I can do with Fly to make her more at ease having stuff in her mouth and having her mouth looked at, let me know. TIA :grin:


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## edf

Yeah, I can ask around if there is anything you can do to help with prepping for the teeth float. The only thing I can really think of: play with her mouth- even if you aren't putting a bit in, and try doing something with her instead of just waiting like you mentioned. I know when the farrier comes out or when the dentist normally comes out, there is a wait. This last time the dentist just came out for my horse, so I don't know if Zoe would have been more nervous if there was a wait ( tho, she is usually in her stall or in the small paddock, and unless they come in the morning, I can't be there)

Have you looked into the tellington touch?
How to Do the TTouch® - Tellington TTouch Trainingâ„¢ ( or search youtube)

I wouldn't say it's a save all, but I work with it on Zoe, and it seems to work a good chunk of times. When my BO does it, it works better because she is more experienced with it, but if you play around with it, it could help. It's one more view on how to calm a horse and ect, and the more you know, the better, right? 

Don't beat yourself up too much- the dentist said Fly was a bit better, and you learn by experience. My horse kicked at the vet once- luckily just missed him, but I felt like a butt, but I didn't recognize she was still nervous even though the shot was over. I know better for next time!


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I wouldn't say this is an "always." In the barns I've been at, I've never seen a horse floated in a stall or the arena. It's been done in the aisle with the best lighting, horses held with a regular leather halter and lead (not tied or cross-tied).
> 
> I could imagine that some people like the stall because the horse is essentially "trapped' and can't really move away from the procedure. I personally wouldn't want to be "trapped" in a stall with a horse on the verge of panicking though.
> 
> Another maybe, the stall may work for horses that respond strongly to sedation (though that's obviously not a factor in your situation). My mare takes only 1/4 of the sedation recommended for a horse her size because it affects her so strongly. The first time she was sedated after I bought her, vet started with a 1/2 dose since neither of us knew how she'd react to it, and she was almost on the ground. It was actually sort of dangerous to move her from the aisle to her stall because she was so "drunk," with her nose almost on the ground and her legs wobbly. In that instance, it would have been nice if she had already been in her stall.
> 
> But bottom line...I'd say there's no "always" in caring for horses...


The biggest scare I have about sedations is that a needle goes into their main vein, which I've always been told it's a risk things could go wrong if not done right. But even then, it's not exactly a good idea to be injecting stuff through their main vein in their neck.

How big are your barn isles? Ours are really narrow so it probably wouldn't work. It's one reason why we don't have a wash rack and cross ties (two things I dearly miss about the old barn as I've always wanted to get Fly used to the wash rack and be able to hose her down in the summers, would be so nice!!!!)


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## tinaev

A few months ago when Rio's teeth were floated my vet used a gel to sedate him. It takes a bit longer to take effect but he said it's a more gentle sedation and obviously there's the added bonus of no needle being needed. He put the gel on Rio's gums and about 30-40 mins later that was one drunk pony. It might be something you look into eventually if you need to. There's no reason to have them get all worked up over dental work that must be done. 

Our other horse, Nick, is horrible with his teeth. It's actually quite scary. The last time the vet did his teeth he wound up dosing him once for 1200 lbs (Nick weighs about 1050) and again a while later for 900 lbs. And he still fought the float tooth and nail. He has reared during a float, kicked, and tried every evasion possible. It was awful and gets worse every year. Because of all that we make sure to float him just in his halter with someone holding his lead. Definitely not in a stall or with any type of restraint. Someone would wind up in the hospital. This past year we skipped his float and just let the vet mess around with his mouth, give him his shots, etc. in hopes that he could see that vet day doesn't have to be an awful experience. We'll try for floating again next year.


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## EliRose

Hoofpic said:


> The biggest scare I have about sedations is that a needle goes into their main vein, which I've always been told it's a risk things could go wrong if not done right. But even then, it's not exactly a good idea to be injecting stuff through their main vein in their neck.
> 
> How big are your barn isles? Ours are really narrow so it probably wouldn't work. It's one reason why we don't have a wash rack and cross ties (two things I dearly miss about the old barn as I've always wanted to get Fly used to the wash rack and be able to hose her down in the summers, would be so nice!!!!)


If your dentist is a vet, they should be able to give injection without concern . . . I wouldn't use a vet if I was concerned about their ability around a needle!

"Main vein," are you talking about the carotid artery? Because you're not supposed to be aiming for the carotid . . . Most everyone who regularly gives injections has accidentally done it, but it is rarely fatal. Can look scary but most of the time the horse is totally, totally fine.


Hoofpic, you need to do some real research into horse health and regular procedures.


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## egrogan

I agree with @EliRose, I would never think about my vet's ability to give an injection. 

Yes, I think the aisles where I've boarded have been fairly wide:


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> The biggest scare I have about sedations is that a needle goes into their main vein, which I've always been told it's a risk things could go wrong if not done right. But even then, it's not exactly a good idea to be injecting stuff through their main vein in their neck.


Not exactly a good idea to be using the jugular vein for injections?! Where else do you suggest doing an IV injection in a horse then? While any injection has a risk of complications, it is a very minor risk assuming the person doing it is educated and experienced. Getting into a vehicle puts you at risk for an accident every single time, but I suspect you still drive, right? Chemical restraint is often _much_ less stressful for the animal than any form of physical restraint, not to mention less dangerous for the handlers of that animal.

I, personally, have put a needle into the jugular vein of 1000s of animals for blood draws or medication administration - I am a licensed veterinary technician - and the worst issue I have had as a result was a small hematoma after the animal stood less than still. 

Please talk to your vet and do some research to understand the true risks versus benefits on sedation. Don't let lack of understanding keep you from giving Fly the best possible experience with the dentist.


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## Hoofpic

edf said:


> Yeah, I can ask around if there is anything you can do to help with prepping for the teeth float. The only thing I can really think of: play with her mouth- even if you aren't putting a bit in, and try doing something with her instead of just waiting like you mentioned. I know when the farrier comes out or when the dentist normally comes out, there is a wait. This last time the dentist just came out for my horse, so I don't know if Zoe would have been more nervous if there was a wait ( tho, she is usually in her stall or in the small paddock, and unless they come in the morning, I can't be there)
> 
> Have you looked into the tellington touch?
> How to Do the TTouch® - Tellington TTouch Trainingâ„¢ ( or search youtube)
> 
> I wouldn't say it's a save all, but I work with it on Zoe, and it seems to work a good chunk of times. When my BO does it, it works better because she is more experienced with it, but if you play around with it, it could help. It's one more view on how to calm a horse and ect, and the more you know, the better, right?
> 
> Don't beat yourself up too much- the dentist said Fly was a bit better, and you learn by experience. My horse kicked at the vet once- luckily just missed him, but I felt like a butt, but I didn't recognize she was still nervous even though the shot was over. I know better for next time!


Thanks, I will look into T Touch again, I did briefly months ago but didn't really get the chance to really research into it.

Yes Fly was better this week the in November, by not just a bit but a good amount, even my trainer said so. So that is good sign.


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## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> A few months ago when Rio's teeth were floated my vet used a gel to sedate him. It takes a bit longer to take effect but he said it's a more gentle sedation and obviously there's the added bonus of no needle being needed. He put the gel on Rio's gums and about 30-40 mins later that was one drunk pony. It might be something you look into eventually if you need to. There's no reason to have them get all worked up over dental work that must be done.
> 
> Our other horse, Nick, is horrible with his teeth. It's actually quite scary. The last time the vet did his teeth he wound up dosing him once for 1200 lbs (Nick weighs about 1050) and again a while later for 900 lbs. And he still fought the float tooth and nail. He has reared during a float, kicked, and tried every evasion possible. It was awful and gets worse every year. Because of all that we make sure to float him just in his halter with someone holding his lead. Definitely not in a stall or with any type of restraint. Someone would wind up in the hospital. This past year we skipped his float and just let the vet mess around with his mouth, give him his shots, etc. in hopes that he could see that vet day doesn't have to be an awful experience. We'll try for floating again next year.


I agree that there is no reason to have a horse get all worked up over dental work but the good sign is that Fly was noticably better this week. 

My dentist said that he won't sedate because he doesn't like sedating any horse. 

I will admit, Fly is not good with any restricted areas - trailers, stalls etc. When we hauled her over to the barn from the previous one, she walked out in a downpour of sweat. She was nervous as hell. Mind you, she was in a 3 horse trailer this time (where they have the barriers to pin each horse), but getting her used to the trailer is one of the many things that I plan on working with her this year. Afterall, I do still very much plan to haul her to a trail or clinic this year. I will start with one and go from there.

My BO said that, (even though I don't stall Fly), it is always beneficial to get any horse comfortable being in a stall. He said that each time I take her into the barn, just take her into the stall, do a circle with her and walk her back out. That way, the stall is not completely unfamiliar territory with her. Do you think this is something I should start doing?

Aside from her getting her teeth done, the only times (twice) that I've taken her into the stall was when (like over a year ago) when she was bad and I put her in there for maybe 1 min max with me standing right by the door. I don't know how she will react and (not saying she will do it but you never know) I don't want her trying to jump over the door, so that is why I stood right by the door. She snorts and walks in circles and is obviously not comfortable being in a stall.


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## Hoofpic

I know we talked about this last year but its bad to feed a horse grain on and off right?

My trainer isn't too pleased with one of my friends (the one who has the 2 year old colt) because she has been feeding one of the trainers horses (theyre in the same herd) grain on and off when my friend goes to feed her boy grain. 

She doesnt take her colt out to feed him much anymore because she finds it to be too much work (she has to fend off the other horses), so she feeds him in the field and then of course my trainers horse knows her as the food lady and will be in her space until smhe gets some. 

My friend has been told that she is no longer allowed to feed her colt in the barn if there is a lesson going on. Not sure why exactly but Im guessing its because her colt keeps jumping the stall door and is a wild nut.

So my friend brings them all a bucket of grain so it keeps the trainers horse off of her.


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## natisha

If your friend was at my place I'd give her the boot & I usually overlook what anyone wants to do with their own horse. But.... if they are messing with someone else's horse, especially after being told not to, then they've crossed the line.


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## natisha

As for stalls I think it's good to get them used to it. You never know when you may need to use a stall.
That said, it doesn't sound like your stalls are too safe. A stall should safely contain a horse & if they can jump out it's not a safe stall.


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## EliRose

Is your dentist actually a vet?

Your friend does not sound like she should be around ANY horses unsupervised . . .


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> If your friend was at my place I'd give her the boot & I usually overlook what anyone wants to do with their own horse. But.... if they are messing with someone else's horse, especially after being told not to, then they've crossed the line.


I know my trainer doesn't like it and I can tell that she doesn't like my friend at all, however my friend is very close to the BO. I know the BO doesn't agree with a lot of things that my friend does but he doesn't butt in because he tries to mind his own business. 

Same thing when I arrived at the barn in 2015 and the first week with Fly on the new hay, she gained noticable weight and my BO asked me how much grain I am giving Fly and gave me a bit of a stern lecture on why she doesn't need it, if anything it will do her more harm than good and that I should get her off. Well he got the message across because I got Fly off since then and everything has worked out. He came to me the very next day apologizing for lecturing me and that he didn't mean to come across that way and that will mind his own business but I told him no apology needed and instead I thanked him for him talking to me about it because he got the message across. He did it because he cared.

I'm sure the BO sees stuff from me that he feels differently on but doesn't bring it up with me because he knows Fly is my horse and he tries to stay out. But I do my best to obey his requests like not going around and feeding his horses treats. He said he doesn't mind the occasional treat to the two boys in Fly's herd (because he knows that I spend a lot of time with them and they know me), but just not all the time.

This is why my trainers horse is so nippy and rude with my other friend, because he has associated that by seeing her every time, means that he gets food.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> As for stalls I think it's good to get them used to it. You never know when you may need to use a stall.
> That said, it doesn't sound like your stalls are too safe. A stall should safely contain a horse & if they can jump out it's not a safe stall.


Our stalls are safe, it's just a much older style where the doors swing out and not slide along the front. There are no bars either. My friend's colt jumps the stall doors because my friend hasn't disciplined him once for it. She just lets him do it as he pleases. I will say this and I mean it but my friend NEVER reprimands him for anything and that is why he is a bit of a loose canon at the barn.

It's gotten to a point where the BO's helpers have purposely and outright told her to not bring him in while they are in the barn with their horses and my friend has taken offense to their comments. There have been times where my friend wanted to bring him in to feed him but she was told not to.

I do think her colt is a sweet boy, he just needs work. I've gotten to know him over the past few months since his herd now shares the space right next to Fly's herd (and the two herds have become acquainted), so each time I catch Fly and put her back I have to cut through my friends herd. My friends colt respects my space and keeps his distance and gets out when I ask him to because he used to try to get into my space but I have taught him not to get in my space and he obeys each time I go in. Same with my trainer's horse, he used to be the same and now he obeys my space each time I walk in. They will walk up when they see me but they keep out of my space and don't come barging in.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> Is your dentist actually a vet?


Not sure, highly doubt it because I don't think many dentists are vets.



> Your friend does not sound like she should be around ANY horses unsupervised . . .


I have to agree with you here. Not just because of her feeding other horses but for safety risks. She's already gotten injured a few times from being knocked over by the other horses in the herd. Wearing high heels from work doesn't help either when trying to walk in dirt and mud.

When I see her at the barn, her and I will talk a lot but it really makes me uncomfortable when I'm seen around her and she is throwing out food for the other horses in her herd. She will even do it with other herds (grass only though). Last summer, everyday she would literally take out the sickle and chop down fresh long grass from within and around the barn property, throw it on a tarp and throw some into all the herds. She asked the BO about doing this and he said he was fine but not too much or too often, but she did it everyday. 

I know that the BO appreciates her for chopping down the grass around the property when it gets long though. It gets long and quite fast, easily up to your hip.

She did the same for carrots and apples too (even watermelon), she would often bring out huge buckets of apples to feed to everyone, but I know that she doesn't give any to Fly's herd so that's good. She will ask me and my other friend (who's mare if Fly's herd mate) if we are okay with it first.

I know with Fly's herd, they have 4 horses in there and they don't have that much grass in their pasture in the spring and summer so extra grass isn't an issue. They often get let out in an extended area in the summer because the BO wants them to chew down the grass when it gets long.


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## EliRose

No Hoofpic, most dentist are or *should* be vets. It is _illegal_ in 30 US states for an equine dentist to be unlicensed, or they at least have to be supervised by a vet. I'm sure it is in the same in Canada.

I'm wondering if your dentist won't sedate because he isn't legally allowed to administer sedation/doesn't have the liability insurance . . .

You seriously need to do your homework man.


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## Hoofpic

EliRose said:


> No Hoofpic, most dentist are or *should* be vets. It is _illegal_ in 30 US states for an equine dentist to be unlicensed, or they at least have to be supervised by a vet. I'm sure it is in the same in Canada.
> 
> I'm wondering if your dentist won't sedate because he isn't legally allowed to administer sedation/doesn't have the liability insurance . . .
> 
> You seriously need to do your homework man.


Well I dont know forsure if he has a vet background or not but where I live tons of dentists don't have vet backgrounds. Remember this is my BO's dentist and (also use his farrier) so I can't judge unless I know forsure.

Tomorrow I am going to the vet clinic so it's a perfect time for me to ask the vets there if I wanted since there will be a bunch on hand.


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## Hoofpic

See this is what I'm talking about. People who don't even let me know whether they are going to come to the horse clinic with me or not. Sometimes I feel that I shouldn't bother asking or inviting them or telling them about it and just go about things on my own.


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## Rainaisabelle

Go on your own then.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Go on your own then.


I am and always have, but I can't help but second guess myself if i should continue letting my friends know about clinics and shows that I discover and plan to attend in the future.


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## Rainaisabelle

Okay well just do it then.


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## Hoofpic

Wow its packed, about 500 people here. I didnt think it would be this busy.


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## Hoofpic

I dont like big crowds, I wish I could get used to them but I never will. Im just not a very social person.


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## Hoofpic

Great clinic but some parts and some questions asked by the crowd were too advanced for me.

I put my question in the Q and A box. I couldn't stay the whole day, off to the barn now.


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## Hoofpic

I thought about it and I made a decision that I will no longer tell my friends about upcoming shows or clinics that I find out and plan on attending. I will keep it to myself and if they ask or find out then I will tell them. But I am not going out of my way anymore for them. I mean why bother anymore if they're not going to follow up and let me know when they said they will. It's just careless that's all. When someone says that they will get back to you by so and so date to let you know if they are going to go with you or not, and don't, drives me absolute bonkers. It is one of my biggest pet peeves. I never ever do it to anyone else, it's just rude and a slap in the face.

So the trail riding in May, I will just do what I did last year and book on my own and go on my own.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I thought about it and I made a decision that I will no longer tell my friends about upcoming shows or clinics that I find out and plan on attending. I will keep it to myself and if they ask or find out then I will tell them. But I am not going out of my way anymore for them. I mean why bother anymore if they're not going to follow up and let me know when they said they will. It's just careless that's all. When someone says that they will get back to you by so and so date to let you know if they are going to go with you or not, and don't, drives me absolute bonkers. It is one of my biggest pet peeves. I never ever do it to anyone else, it's just rude and a slap in the face.
> 
> So the trail riding in May, I will just do what I did last year and book on my own and go on my own.


How is telling them of an event going out of your way for them? 
Nothing hard or wrong with mentioning what you're doing. I tell my friends about all kinds of things they don't care about. That's what friends do.
Not everything is a personal insult, so why do you take it as such?

The next time mention you're going to an event. If they show interest tell them, "Great, I'll meet you there." If they really want to go they will & may even ask to share a ride. If they don't show tell them about it when you get back. No reason to get pouty.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> How is telling them of an event going out of your way for them?


I tell them about the event and try to see if they would be interested in coming with me. I usually email the details to them.



> Nothing hard or wrong with mentioning what you're doing. I tell my friends about all kinds of things they don't care about. That's what friends do.
> Not everything is a personal insult, so why do you take it as such?


I'm not insulted but it just drives me bonkers when people say they will let you know on so and so day if they are going with you and they don't. It's just common courtesy.



> The next time mention you're going to an event. If they show interest tell them, "Great, I'll meet you there." If they really want to go they will & may even ask to share a ride. If they don't show tell them about it when you get back. No reason to get pouty.


I will only mention that I am going to an event if they ask. If they show interest then perhaps I will see them there.


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## Rain Shadow

Guess what, life happens. I had planned to go to three endurance races in a few months span. My mare was injured and then work changed my hours and things got screwed up. 

Here is how you socialize:

"Hey, there is a clinic I'm going to on dentistry. If anyone wants to go, its on so and so date. Let me know if you need me to text you the address." 

Done. Simple. Life happens. People have jobs with changing hours. They have family. They have kids. Some days they just don't want to deal with people.

I rarely commit to events. My hours at work change a lot. I've been called in with less then 15 minutes notice and I have health issues. I was very excited this summer to do a huge ride I'd planned on for months, payed my fee, only to have a massive migraine that morning and I couldn't go. So I'll be interested in something, ask for details but often don't go because of life. 

Have you ever though that they are blowing you off because they don't want to deal with you being mad at them over life getting in the way?


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## Hoofpic

Rain Shadow said:


> Guess what, life happens. I had planned to go to three endurance races in a few months span. My mare was injured and then work changed my hours and things got screwed up.
> 
> Here is how you socialize:
> 
> "Hey, there is a clinic I'm going to on dentistry. If anyone wants to go, its on so and so date. Let me know if you need me to text you the address."
> 
> Done. Simple. Life happens. People have jobs with changing hours. They have family. They have kids. Some days they just don't want to deal with people.
> 
> I rarely commit to events. My hours at work change a lot. I've been called in with less then 15 minutes notice and I have health issues. I was very excited this summer to do a huge ride I'd planned on for months, payed my fee, only to have a massive migraine that morning and I couldn't go. So I'll be interested in something, ask for details but often don't go because of life.
> 
> Have you ever though that they are blowing you off because they don't want to deal with you being mad at them over life getting in the way?


They're not blowing me off, I know. I'm not upset, just annoyed. All it takes is 2 seconds, "hey I can't make it tomorrow" instead of telling me that they will let me know and don't. I'm very busy throughout the week and I still make and find the time to get back to people on stuff. Anyways no point in beating the bush anymore, it's in the past. It's not both of my friends like this, just one.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I thought about it and I made a decision that I will no longer tell my friends about upcoming shows or clinics that I find out and plan on attending. I will keep it to myself and if they ask or find out then I will tell them.


Whenever I plan on going to an event, it usually comes up in casual conversation ("What are you doing this weekend?", "Oh, I'm going out to the vet clinic!")—I'd never make a big deal about mentioning it to someone. If someone sounds interested I offer to carpool with them, but unless we make specific plans ("Carpooling sounds great, I'll meet you at the barn at four!"), I just don't worry about it, you know? If someone says they might come, that's great, but I'm not waiting with baited breath for conformation that they'll be there. I'm going to the clinic/show either way, so if we meet up cool, but if not who cares? In my opinion, part of being an independent adult is not relying so heavily on the presence/plans of other people.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Whenever I plan on going to an event, it usually comes up in casual conversation ("What are you doing this weekend?", "Oh, I'm going out to the vet clinic!")—I'd never make a big deal about mentioning it to someone. If someone sounds interested I offer to carpool with them, but unless we make specific plans ("Carpooling sounds great, I'll meet you at the barn at four!"), I just don't worry about it, you know? If someone says they might come, that's great, but I'm not waiting with baited breath for conformation that they'll be there. I'm going to the clinic/show either way, so if we meet up cool, but if not who cares? In my opinion, part of being an independent adult is not relying so heavily on the presence/plans of other people.


Thanks, sounds like you have a good plan. :smile:


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## Hoofpic

Well I am back, it's been a crazy week that I haven't had any time to visit HF.


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## Hoofpic

Dumb question but would it be dumb for me to send the former owner of Fly an email and see if she would like to come visit Fly? She came to visit her about 4 months after she sold her to me but that's it. I know it's not necessary but just thought I would be nice.


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## whisperbaby22

I think it would be appropriate to let the former owner know that you love the horse and are grateful for being able to have her.


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## Hoofpic

whisperbaby22 said:


> I think it would be appropriate to let the former owner know that you love the horse and are grateful for being able to have her.


What do you mean? Just email her saying thank you for her selling Fly to me? And invite her to come visit Fly again or no? Remember her and I haven't talked since Oct of 2015.

I'm not trying to be nosey or creepy about it, but I just thought of it today that it might be a nice gesture to invite her out and see if she would like to see Fly.


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## EliRose

I wouldn't. That's really quite weird tbh. She sold her years ago and I'm sure she's moved on . . .


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## tinyliny

If you just sent an email with a photo showing how nice Fly looks, that might be best.

just be aware, it might open up boxes that you had not considered,. the old owner might come back with some kind of critisism of her appearance (too fat, too thin, feet not like she used do them, etc). you have to be prepared for feedback.

I wouldn't invite her come and visit unless she expresses a wish for that herself.


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## NavigatorsMom

It's one thing if you're friends with the seller and talk from time to time. The woman I bought Navigator from is very good friends with his breeder and the breeder loves hearing about how "her" horses are doing in their new homes, so a couple years back I sent her an email letting her know about Nav and also sent a couple of pictures. She was very happy to hear from me and even sent a couple baby pictures of Nav back. I think something like that is ok.

But if you haven't visited with her in a couple years I think the very most I would do would be an email just to kind of let her know how Fly is doing and how happy you are with her. If I were the seller I would likely appreciate something like that, and an email doesn't put any pressure on to have to accept or decline an invitation. Especially since it's been a couple years since you've talked, I wouldn't ask her to come visit, just seems a bit weird to me.


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## Hoofpic

Okay thanks everyone for the input. I won't invite her to come visit but I will perhaps just email her a picture of Fly that I took . I'm sure she will like that.


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## Hoofpic

How can I help my friend? (or at least advice to give her).

This is the one with the 3 year old colt. She doesn't halter or bring in her boy anymore to feed him grain so over the past 3-4 months, like I said she's been feeding her boy grain just at the gate of their field. She used to feed him with her in the field but because the other two boys know her as the treat lady, she can't keep my trainers gelding and another gelding off of her, so she's been feeding all 3 and no longer goes inside the field to feed.

Now she just told me that it's costing her a fortune and taking a big hit in her pocket book because she's going through 3 times as much grain now because she said "I have to now feed all 3 boys because they won't let my boy eat". Which I know is not true but I didn't say anything, again it's her horse. She doesn't need to be feeding all 3 at all, (and probably shouldn't be especially with something as sensitive as grain).

So really I don't know what to suggest to her other than start feeding her boy outside the field again but she doesn't anymore because she said it's too much work and she gets all stressed out just haltering her boy because other two boys are stepping all over her. She said it's just become too much work for her, each time just to get him haltered and out of the gate, let alone back in after, it's stressful because he's always diving for grass, and the other two boys are always in her space pushing her around and no matter how many times she gets mad at any of the 3 boys, they won't listen to her. She tells them to get out of her space, none of them listen even if she's yelling and hollering.

But I don't think its a problem with that herd because whenever i go catch Fly, I have to cut through part of their field and if they are there, they all respect my space and don't run me over. They have tried before many many months ago but I've corrected them and they no longer do it. They never go in my bubble and if I tell them to go away they will, I don't need to scream, ask over and over again, or get upset.


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## Rainaisabelle

How about don't? It none of your business


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## Rainaisabelle

I believe this isn't the first time you've asked this, unless you can boast of your absolute perfection when handling horses don't get involved even if she asked.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> I believe this isn't the first time you've asked this, unless you can boast of your absolute perfection when handling horses don't get involved even if she asked.


But last time she asked me, she wasn't feeding all 3 boys grain. 

I never said that I have perfection when handling horses but I do know that these 3 respect my space when I'm cutting through part of their field to get to Fly.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> How can I help my friend? (or at least advice to give her).


Not your problem, I'd stay out of it. She's shown in the past that she's not really looking to learn or change her ways, and it's not your job to lecture her on how to properly handle horses out in the field. At the most, if I were you I'd alert the owners of the other two horses that she's been feeding their horses grain, because if I owned one of those horses and found out someone had been feeding my horse without my permission I'd be _furious_.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> But last time she asked me, she wasn't feeding all 3 boys grain.
> 
> I never said that I have perfection when handling horses but I do know that these 3 respect my space when I'm cutting through part of their field to get to Fly.



Mind your business. You'll end up getting her and yourself in trouble or hurt, she wants help he can talk to the BO.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Not your problem, I'd stay out of it. She's shown in the past that she's not really looking to learn or change her ways, and it's not your job to lecture her on how to properly handle horses out in the field. At the most, if I were you I'd alert the owners of the other two horses that she's been feeding their horses grain, because if I owned one of those horses and found out someone had been feeding my horse without my permission I'd be _furious_.


No, this is my other friend, the one you are referring to is my other friend who's mare is Fly's pasture mate. 

Well the two geldings that my friends colt is with are my BO's horse and one of my trainers. They already know that my friend feeds them treats all the time, everyone at the barn knows because feeding treats is really the only thing she does with her boy. She's the only boarder at the barn who doesn't do anything with their horse and she will bring big pales of apples and carrots, watermelon, bread (for the dogs and goats) and other treats to the barn.

But I'm not sure if they know that she's been feeding the other two boys grain everyday. I don't want to be a rat. I haven't seen this one friend for about a month at the barn since she only comes out when no one else is there. She said that she's okay if I'm there and the BO and a couple other boarders, but no one else. If my trainer is there, she will go back home and come back later. It just makes her really uncomfortable when people are around when she's there.

She doesn't feed them all 3 because she wants to but so they don't fight. If she just feeds her boy grain, the other two will chase him off of it since her boy is at the bottom of the herd.


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## Rainaisabelle

Just stay out of it


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Mind your business. You'll end up getting her and yourself in trouble or hurt, she wants help he can talk to the BO.


I know, I just feel bad that's all. Wish I could help her out. 

I know (even though she gets along very well with my BO), my trainer isn't too fond of her. You can just tell, it's all in the body language. 

I feel that both my BO and trainer would like to help her at times or say something but they feel the same as me (and you guys), it's her horse, and it's none of our business.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> No, this is my other friend, the one you are referring to is my other friend who's mare is Fly's pasture mate.


I don't think it really matters. If she wanted to learn how to better handle her horse and the horses around it, she would. Again, that part of this equation isn't any of your business. There are a lot of people that don't treat their horses the way we would want them to be treated if they were ours, but that doesn't give us a right to offer unsolicited advice. Plus it's not worth the trouble.


Hoofpic said:


> I don't want to be a rat.


But this is just ridiculous. In my opinion the fact that she's feeding horses that aren't her own is a really _really_ serious problem. If it were me I'd want to check in with the owners to make sure they know what she's doing. If someone at my barn was doing this I would 100% want someone to tell me, a horse's diet is nothing to joke about.


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## Rainaisabelle

I think the bottom line is mind your business.


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## tinyliny

It's only natural to want to help a friend who one sees is struggling. the only thing you CAN do in this case is let her share her frustrations with you, and quietly nod and say, "that must be very hard to deal with ". 

basically, you listen, but you do not offer any advice at all. neither do you cast judgement. you just try to be as empathetic as possible.

you KNOW she is hurting. she feels overwhelmed with this colt, scared of the other two horses, and fearful of judgement or critisism by the barn owner. so, being a dispassionate listener is all you can do.


But, she needs to speak with the owners of those two other horses. she CANNOT continue to feed them grain without consent from the owners. it will be really hard for her, but if you wanted to become involved in ANY way, it would be to tell her how important it is for her to be honest with these other horse owners, and STOP feeding all of them grain until she can either move the horse where needed, OR, have permission to feed grain to all.

there is no actual reason why she MUST feed grain at all. it is not necessary. she can stop this stressful, deceitful activity. if you want to share that with her, you could . but, some people simple cannot be helped.


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## PoptartShop

I personally wouldn't involve myself in that either, I agree with the minding your own. 

Just think- not my circus, not my monkeys. 
Some people at my barn do things I don't agree with, but I just have to shrug it off. People are going to do what they want and most of the time they won't listen anyway!


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I don't think it really matters. If she wanted to learn how to better handle her horse and the horses around it, she would. Again, that part of this equation isn't any of your business. There are a lot of people that don't treat their horses the way we would want them to be treated if they were ours, but that doesn't give us a right to offer unsolicited advice. Plus it's not worth the trouble.
> 
> But this is just ridiculous. In my opinion the fact that she's feeding horses that aren't her own is a really _really_ serious problem. If it were me I'd want to check in with the owners to make sure they know what she's doing. If someone at my barn was doing this I would 100% want someone to tell me, a horse's diet is nothing to joke about.


I'm not disagreeing with you in that she shouldn't be feeding other horses grain, especially when the other horses are full grown and not hers. Feeding the other two boys grain just so they don't fight over her colt's grain isn't right. I know the trainer's gelding is already a bit chubby and the trainer wants him to lose weight, not gain more. 

I know I've talked to her about grain before and she sees grain as a casual snack for horses but it's not. It's not like giving them carrots. 

One of the quotes that I've read in a horse book and one that has stuck along with me all this time is, "Set yourself and your horse up for success" and she is not doing this. This means, putting her and her colt in the best possible situation for the both of them to succeed. This is definitely not by her feeding all 3 of them grain. Take her colt out to feed him and the other two boys won't even be in the equation as far as being an issue.


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## tinyliny

that is WAY above any place that you can involve yourself. I know it must be truly exasperating to you, but this person has a ways to go before they are willing to see that the real problem is that hey have a horse they are afraid to handle, and won't face that problem. again, just be a detached listener, nothing more. people such as this person will often literally look for something to fight against (you advice) instead of facing the REAL problem.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> It's only natural to want to help a friend who one sees is struggling. the only thing you CAN do in this case is let her share her frustrations with you, and quietly nod and say, "that must be very hard to deal with ".
> 
> basically, you listen, but you do not offer any advice at all. neither do you cast judgement. you just try to be as empathetic as possible.
> 
> you KNOW she is hurting. she feels overwhelmed with this colt, scared of the other two horses, and fearful of judgement or critisism by the barn owner. so, being a dispassionate listener is all you can do.


Well yes but I don't see her a whole lot since she won't go to the barn if my trainer is there or if the barn is busy, she usually goes when no one is there. She is very self cautious and she doesn't want others criticizing her on horse to handle her boy. 

So it's very rare that her and I run into each other. But when we do we will just talk, and she does her feeding with her colt and I see what's happening but I just shrug it off and ignore it. There are a lot of things that we don't agree on when it comes to horses, I see a horse as a horse, she sees a horse as a big fluffy cute stuffy animal. I can't under estimate how true this is, but she sees horse as big cute and cuddly stuffy animals. 



> But, she needs to speak with the owners of those two other horses. she CANNOT continue to feed them grain without consent from the owners. it will be really hard for her, but if you wanted to become involved in ANY way, it would be to tell her how important it is for her to be honest with these other horse owners, and STOP feeding all of them grain until she can either move the horse where needed, OR, have permission to feed grain to all.
> 
> there is no actual reason why she MUST feed grain at all. it is not necessary. she can stop this stressful, deceitful activity. if you want to share that with her, you could . but, some people simple cannot be helped.


I didn't bring it up with her because I felt I should mind my own business. I don't know if my BO or trainer knows that she is feeding their horses grain but I know that they see her feeding them treats all the time and they aren't upset over it, but they aren't too impressed either.

I know that she firmly believes the issue is our trainers horse, there is no doubt about it, she's even told me. That is why she is not very fond of him, she thinks of him as a bully, a pest. But with me, my trainers boy and my friends colt are fine. They don't run me over, they respect my space and if I tell them to go away they listen to me the first time. As a matter of fact, I am quite surprised by how obedient her colt is. He backs up to my command better than Fly does lol. He has a lot of potential and he would be a lot of fun to do groundwork with.

The issue lies between her and her horse, but she refuses to get a trainer out for lessons. She has a trainer outside of the barn, she is good friends with her and visits her time to time, but I've gone with her to visits and she's more into socializing and mingling when with her than actually having a lesson. Her trainer will come out to our barn every few months but they just socialize and no working with the colt. I know she loves giving treats to horses, even when going to her trainers to visit she will bring a 10lb bag of carrots with her to feed to the horses and usually pales of apples, and other treats.

The trainer and BO forsure know about my friends over obsession about treating horses and they may not be too fond of it but they've accepted it for what she enjoys the most.


----------



## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> I personally wouldn't involve myself in that either, I agree with the minding your own.
> 
> Just think- not my circus, not my monkeys.
> Some people at my barn do things I don't agree with, but I just have to shrug it off. People are going to do what they want and most of the time they won't listen anyway!


This is very true.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> that is WAY above any place that you can involve yourself. I know it must be truly exasperating to you, but this person has a ways to go before they are willing to see that the real problem is that hey have a horse they are afraid to handle, and won't face that problem. again, just be a detached listener, nothing more. people such as this person will often literally look for something to fight against (you advice) instead of facing the REAL problem.


Well she's talked to me about this the most out of everyone at the barn (aside from the BO, there's not really anyone who she will chat with except me) and she truly honestly believes that this boy is getting better, doesn't need any more training or ground work because he's finished (he hasn't even started) and that he loves her to death. 

She said that because his ears go up and he looks her way when she arrives at the barn, that means that he loves her. He comes to her when she goes walking up to the gate, that's because he loves her. Nope. He sees her as purely a food source. Seeing her means automatic treats each time, it means grass for him. It also doesn't help that the horses always see her with treats. But she doesn't see it this way.

And before anyone asks why she is feeding her boy grain, it's because he's just turned 3 and still needs to gain weight. She wants him to round out and gain weight faster so she can start riding him. She was going to break him in this winter but decided to wait til the summer because he's too light.


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## egrogan

I am very much of the "mind your own business and focus on your own horse" approach to being a boarder. 

HOWEVER, the grain thing is completely unacceptable. After working for months with my BO to adjust my horse's diet and get her to a healthy weight, I can't even imagine how furious I would be if someone was feeding her something without my knowledge. In fact, at my barn, I think that would probably be a "you're leaving now" offense- no one feeds someone else's horse at this barn, not even a peppermint.

Taking all the people out of it, I think you have a responsibility to those two horses to make sure their owners know that this person is way, way overstepping acceptable boundaries.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> I am very much of the "mind your own business and focus on your own horse" approach to being a boarder.
> 
> HOWEVER, the grain thing is completely unacceptable. After working for months with my BO to adjust my horse's diet and get her to a healthy weight, I can't even imagine how furious I would be if someone was feeding her something without my knowledge. In fact, at my barn, I think that would probably be a "you're leaving now" offense- no one feeds someone else's horse at this barn, not even a peppermint.
> 
> Taking all the people out of it, I think you have a responsibility to those two horses to make sure their owners know that this person is way, way overstepping acceptable boundaries.


I agree with you that it's completely unacceptable. Don't get me wrong, ever since I first saw her feeding all 3 of them grain, red flags immediately went up for me and I thought "what the?" I have decided that I would like to do something about it, at least make sure that my trainer and BO knows that these two boys are being fed grain. But I have to go about it differently. I can't just go tell them and rat out my friend. My friend will no longer have me as her friend and I will now be viewed as a tattle tail by my BO and trainer. 

My friend is doing this because she feels 100% that it's a fault of my trainers gelding being too pushy and bratty, but when it's really to cover up for her lack of handling and ability to handle her colt. That's simply what it comes down to.


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## tinyliny

well, you aren't obligated to do anything. Really. You can just let it go. 

Or, you could just casually mention to her that if she is found out she may end up thrown out. Maybe that would get her to stop this secretive activity 



But, you don't have to do anything. Isn't that a relief?


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## Hoofpic

Dumd question but is it true that horses can colic from eating like 4 mouthfuls or bites from barn straw?

I keep getting told different things. I also was told that straw cant kill them but its like popcorn, it has no nutritional value to them.


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## Hoofpic

Im really worried and not too proud of myself right now. My friend and I let our mares loose in the arena and they were up by the mirror and they munched on the bale of straw right by it. I didnt know its bad for them so I chased Fly away after she had a couple bites full then when I walked away and went elsewhere she came back and got a couple more before i chased her away for good. 

Im worried now. My friend said that we can ket them eat this because its moldy and its deadly. I looked ay the straw and couldnt physically see any mold but I took my friends word for it that it was moldy because these bales have sat in the barn for a long time, probably a couple years at least.

What should i do now? Im really worried for Fly. Supper is in an hour. The hay shouldnt be in her system for long id imagine. I gave her a drink after. Hopefully Im just overreacting for nothing.


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## tinaev

Obviously not a vet but I wouldn't worry about it, just keep an eye on her. Every horse is different, but my two don't touch moldy hay. They know it's not good and don't let it come near their mouths.


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## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> Obviously not a vet but I wouldn't worry about it, just keep an eye on her. Every horse is different, but my two don't touch moldy hay. They know it's not good and don't let it come near their mouths.


Thanks. Whats the best way to keep an eye on her?

Well like I said, I dont know exactly what kind of straw this was (just the generic straw that you see in barns) and I couldnt see any mold on it but if a bale of straw is stored for years indoors, its forsure going to have mold, perhaps its just not the easily detected mold when found on reg hay thay horses eat.


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## NavigatorsMom

If you are worried about keeping an eye on her you of course can go back to the barn and check on her. Likely she will be fine. But just check her behavior, if she's acting weird or not, and her vital signs. I wouldn't be worried too much though.

Also, if it were me I'd text BO, or whoever takes care of the horses when the boarders are not there, and just say something like "hey, can you keep an eye on Fly for me tonight, she ate some of the straw from the barn and I just want to make sure she's ok." Just so he/she knows what's going on and can let you know if something happens.


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## Hoofpic

NavigatorsMom said:


> If you are worried about keeping an eye on her you of course can go back to the barn and check on her. Likely she will be fine. But just check her behavior, if she's acting weird or not, and her vital signs. I wouldn't be worried too much though.
> 
> Also, if it were me I'd text BO, or whoever takes care of the horses when the boarders are not there, and just say something like "hey, can you keep an eye on Fly for me tonight, she ate some of the straw from the barn and I just want to make sure she's ok." Just so he/she knows what's going on and can let you know if something happens.


If I go back to check on her, it will be tomorrow. Im not sure if telling my Bo that Fly ate some of the straw is a good idea because he will most likely wonder how this happened if I had her on a lead rope. Technically he is not big on letting horses loose in the arena and this is something that is not really allowed at the barn unless you are the only person there. The only people who let their horses loose in the arena is one of my barn friends and I.


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## Hoofpic

Okay I found out, it's chaff straw.


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## Hoofpic

Well you guys aren't going to like hearing this. 

Today I happened to run into my friend (with the colt) at the barn at the same time. The reason why I most likely am not seeing her anymore is because apparently she is now coming out to the barn at 8 or 9pm to feed the boys because no one will be there and the BO will be in his house.

I didn't realize just how upset and bothered she was about being banned from taking her boy in the barn to feed him when others are inside. My other friend was there too and she ended up telling her everything that's happened and how she feels "forced" to now having to feed all 3 boys grain. And that she is being mistreated and that it's not right.

I didn't want to hear it so I just focused on something else. She's not being forced to do anything. She said that she doesn't want to feed her boy outside their field, she wants to feed him in a stall. 

So anyways, today she decided to bring her boy into the barn and feed him. Well, she's very lucky that she didn't get seriously injured because he got scared of the noise on the roof (which was the ice melting). We have a loud roof and it tends to over exaggerate sounds from the outside. Anyways, she got her boy 2 or 3ft inside then he spooked and bucked and danced circles, but my friend was trying to get him to calm down but he wouldn't. So after 5 mins or so she put him back home. She said that he got scared and wanted to go back home so she put him back. She ended up just feeding all 3 boys in the field.

I was at the other end of the barn and happened to catch it when I walked in. I didn't do anything because like you guys said, mind my own business. But peaking out of my stall, I did notice him bucking and freaking out and dancing in circles while she was trying to get him to stop.


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## Rainaisabelle

Im not going to tell you not to post cause this is your journal but you do realise that people can do a quick google search and find these things right? One day your "friend" might find these posts and then what will you do? You were telling everyone about her problems?


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## gottatrot

I'm in a different camp than the "mind your own business no matter what" camp.
I hope that everyone at a boarding barn will be eyes and ears and let me know if something is going on with my horse. My advice would be to tell the people whose horses are being fed grain without their knowledge. 

I'm not saying you have to give your friend advice on handling horses, but I often don't feel the need to tell humans how to be safe. That's their responsibility. But I do feel I need to speak up if I see something going on with a horse that might harm them.

How would you like it if someone was giving your horse something she is allergic to, or a shot, or riding her when you were away? To me, giving grain without the owner's knowledge falls into that category. Some horses might founder or have an allergic reaction to something in the grain, and then the owner would have no idea why. This could seriously impact the horse's health and life.

I have two horses that cannot have grain; one has Cushing's and the other has recently had laminitis. If someone saw a person at the barn feeding my horses grain so they could handle their own horse in the field, I would certainly hope that whoever saw this happening would notify me so I could put a stop to it. 

I don't feel sorry for your friend and the issues she is having. She can read and learn how to solve this problem on her own if it bothers her. She can ask for permission to tie the other two horses, or ask if they can be fed hay pellets while she grains her horse. She can work with her own horse and teach him a routine where he comes just outside of the gate and eats while on a lead line.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Im not going to tell you not to post cause this is your journal but you do realise that people can do a quick google search and find these things right? One day your "friend" might find these posts and then what will you do? You were telling everyone about her problems?


I'm just sharing my story with you guys, there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> I'm in a different camp than the "mind your own business no matter what" camp.
> I hope that everyone at a boarding barn will be eyes and ears and let me know if something is going on with my horse. My advice would be to tell the people whose horses are being fed grain without their knowledge.


This is what I plan on doing. I plan on finding out (discreetly) if the trainer and BO know that my friend has been feeding their horses grain. I have a good feeling that they don't know because I know that if my friend is out and my trainer happens to be there, she doesn't feed the other two boys anything if she is nearby and can potentially see.

But it's gotten out of control. There will be times where my friend will feed her herd hay when it's not even feed time. She doesn't throw them a new flake, but she takes loose bits here and there and puts it inside. I know the trainer has caught her doing this, she didn't say anything but like I said, I know that my trainer isn't very fond of her and her obsession of always feeding treats to horses.



> I'm not saying you have to give your friend advice on handling horses, but I often don't feel the need to tell humans how to be safe. That's their responsibility. But I do feel I need to speak up if I see something going on with a horse that might harm them.
> 
> How would you like it if someone was giving your horse something she is allergic to, or a shot, or riding her when you were away? To me, giving grain without the owner's knowledge falls into that category. Some horses might founder or have an allergic reaction to something in the grain, and then the owner would have no idea why. This could seriously impact the horse's health and life.


That is very true and this is why I'm rather disgusted with my friend right now. Im really dissapointed in her because she is making this all about herself. The fact that she is blaming it on others at the barn and feels that she is being "forced" to feeding all 3 boys is ridiculous. All she has to do is take her boy out of the field to feed him, even feed him right outside the gate. But she won't because it's too stressful for her and too much of a hassle.

I've felt sympathy towards her all this time, but until this own grain thing, I just can't take it anymore. That is why when she was telling everything to my other friend yesterday at the barn, I just ignored her and focused on something else. She is completely making this whole thing out to be some personal vendetta that other people at the barn have against her when it's not.

The problem isn't my trainers gelding in her colt's herd. Yes he is pushy and a pest, but he runs all over her each time she walks in there because she lets him. She will use her voice and holler and scream at him, but he doesn't listen to her. I've seen it time and time again and it's not pretty. My BO has seen it more than I have and he is well aware of my friends obsession with feeding treats, but I think he stays out of it because it's none of his business and its her horse.

This is why my trainer has banned my friend from taking her boy into the barn while she is doing lessons. It is not fair to the rider and the other people and their horses in the barn because each time my friend handles her boy, there is a big scene between them two. 



> I have two horses that cannot have grain; one has Cushing's and the other has recently had laminitis. If someone saw a person at the barn feeding my horses grain so they could handle their own horse in the field, I would certainly hope that whoever saw this happening would notify me so I could put a stop to it.


True I 100% agree with you here.



> I don't feel sorry for your friend and the issues she is having. She can read and learn how to solve this problem on her own if it bothers her. She can ask for permission to tie the other two horses, or ask if they can be fed hay pellets while she grains her horse. She can work with her own horse and teach him a routine where he comes just outside of the gate and eats while on a lead line.


The thing is, she sees the problem being my trainers horse and the people at the barn, not her or her colt.

I felt sorry for her at first (especially when she told me stories how at the previous barn, people were calling her boy "dangerous" and that he is out of control, and people were being mean to her. I thought perhaps "okay these people were just meaning cruel to her", I felt bad for her. But now after this whole grain thing, I am skeptical of her story and whether the people at the previous barn really were being mean to her. Its most likely deja vu as to what we are seeing now.

Cause she believes the trainer and people at the barn now are being mean to her and taking away her privilege to do what she wants to do with her boy the barn, but this totally is not the case.

My friend chooses not to read, learn or work with her horse because like I said before, she honestly believes that her boy doesn't need anymore training (she's told me this before) because he loves her with all his heart, the next step is to ride him and all she wants to do is feed him treats.

I know my trainer or BO wouldnt give her permission to halter and handle these two boys, my friend would get killed.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> I'm just sharing my story with you guys, there is nothing wrong with that.


But it's not YOUR story it's your friends problem. Their is a difference.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just sharing my story with you guys, there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> 
> 
> But it's not YOUR story it's your friends problem. Their is a difference.
Click to expand...


You are right.


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## gottatrot

Hoofpic said:


> I felt sorry for her at first (especially when she told me stories how at the previous barn, people were calling her boy "dangerous" and that he is out of control, and people were being mean to her. I thought perhaps "okay these people were just meaning cruel to her", I felt bad for her. But now after this whole grain thing, I am skeptical of her story and whether the people at the previous barn really were being mean to her. Its most likely deja vu as to what we are seeing now.
> 
> Cause she believes the trainer and people at the barn now are being mean to her and taking away her privilege to do what she wants to do with her boy the barn, but this totally is not the case.
> 
> My friend chooses not to read, learn or work with her horse because like I said before, she honestly believes that her boy doesn't need anymore training (she's told me this before) because he loves her with all his heart, the next step is to ride him and all she wants to do is feed him treats.


She will probably find out the hard way, like some others I've met that her horse is going to act like a horse, and she'll have problems. She'll probably be shocked that when she rides her horse he won't just do what she wants and that it hurts to fall off when he runs off or bucks. Then many people decide there is something wrong with the horse or that the "bond" has been lost. Or she might just never ride, which is how some people handle it.

Usually trying to help people like this is a lesson in futility. Which is probably why your trainer and others have just made rules to keep her from interfering with people who are working with their own horses. A young person I know would always think people were being mean or bullying her at the barn. That's because people would tell her things such as she shouldn't turn her horse out with a halter on, or her horse's hooves were needing a trim. If she wasn't invited on rides it bothered her, but nearly every ride she'd fall off, get hurt and then it would be the fault of other riders or her horse that she'd lost control. 

I'm glad you're going to address the issue of the horses being fed without their owners' permission.


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> She will probably find out the hard way, like some others I've met that her horse is going to act like a horse, and she'll have problems.


Well she has the problems but she doesn't see them as problems. This boy needs work,he hasn't even been taught yet to pick up his feet, or to stand tied. The only person that he picks his feet up for is the farrier and she really had to light a fire under his bum. I guess the good news is that my friend doesn't pick his feet and the only time she has his feet cleaned is when they are trimmed.



> She'll probably be shocked that when she rides her horse he won't just do what she wants and that it hurts to fall off when he runs off or bucks. Then many people decide there is something wrong with the horse or that the "bond" has been lost. Or she might just never ride, which is how some people handle it.


Well I don't know how she's going to go about it (I know the BO is wondering the same thing and Im sure the trainer too), but the boy still needs to gain quite a bit more weight for her to ride him. He's had a saddle pad on him before, but not a saddle, cinch or bit in his mouth. Plus my friend needs to start riding because she's only ridden twice and that was over 30 years ago, so I'm not sure who she's going to have lessons with if she's not willing to pay for a trainer. 

My BO feels that my trainer should break him in, but my friend doesnt' want to. 



> Usually trying to help people like this is a lesson in futility. Which is probably why your trainer and others have just made rules to keep her from interfering with people who are working with their own horses. A young person I know would always think people were being mean or bullying her at the barn. That's because people would tell her things such as she shouldn't turn her horse out with a halter on, or her horse's hooves were needing a trim. If she wasn't invited on rides it bothered her, but nearly every ride she'd fall off, get hurt and then it would be the fault of other riders or her horse that she'd lost control.


I know if my friend brings her boy into the barn and there are people inside, the people inside will be on high alert because it's always a big scene having him in the barn. The other horses get on edge, and I could only imagine what it does to my trainers students if she is teaching. So this is not right or fair to them to put up with my friend and her colt. If my trainer didn't ban my friend from being in the barn with others inside, then her students are going to eventually complain.



> I'm glad you're going to address the issue of the horses being fed without their owners' permission.


I am but still undecided on how I'm going to go about it.


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## tinyliny

the whole situation sounds like a whirlpool of disaster. you get too close, and you'll get sucked in , too.

most people would have hit bottom by now, but this 'friend' needs to fall even farther before she admits she's hit bottom and seeks out real help. some folks need to fall farther than others.


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## Speed Racer

Hoofpic said:


> I am but still undecided on how I'm going to go about it.



Why? It's not difficult. Go up to the owners of the other two horses and say, 'I noticed XXX has been feeding your horses grain when she feeds hers. Don't know if you've given her permission to do that, but I wanted to let you know just in case.'


One and done. No need to make it into some big drama that it's not.


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## jaydee

I agree - tell the BO or the BM and walk away
Some people can get too easily drawn into getting involved with what other people do and trying to manage their lives for them, it isn't worth the effort unless it directly affects you.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> the whole situation sounds like a whirlpool of disaster. you get too close, and you'll get sucked in , too.
> 
> most people would have hit bottom by now, but this 'friend' needs to fall even farther before she admits she's hit bottom and seeks out real help. some folks need to fall farther than others.


Well I don't know if my friend will fall further or not. I would think that her getting injured already a few times from being knocked down by her boy was enough but apparently it's not. She sees and treats her colt like a big teddy bear and until this changes, nothing will change. She doesn't believe that her boy needs training, she doesn't believe that she needs more learning, and she believes the next step is to ride him once he gains more weight. I don't know how she is going to go about this, but I know for a fact that the BO is very nervous about all of this. 

She actually has another horse (wildie too, only 1 year old than this colt at the barn), but she boards him about 2 hours away at a friends place and she has them take care of him for the time being because she can't afford board for two horses. 

She told me this weekend that she will be trailering that boy to a barn in the city. She originally asked the BO if she could bring him to our barn now but he declined and said that she should just focus on her colt now and that the last thing she needs is two horses (at least at the place now). My friend was taken back by the comment and dissappointed that the BO wouldn't let her bring in her other horse, so she is finding another barn in the city to bring that horse to. 

I haven't met her other horse but from what I've been told, he's just as bad as the colt now as far as being out of control and hasn't been taught anything. Maybe even worse than her colt actually because he just about killed another boarder at the previous barn. My friend had that horse at the previous barn she was at and everyone labelled the horse as being dangerous and the trainer (which I know and have used before) eventually refused to stop working with him because she said that he will kill someone one of these days and that her safety was at risk when working and handling him. 

How do I know all of this? My friend and I use to board at the same barn previously (just at different times) and we both know the trainer there. When my friend left that barn in Feb of 2015, I just arrived there a few months later. I arrived there as a volunteer to the barn helpers 7 ponies, and the next month I bought Fly. 

So since I used that trainer at the previous barn with Fly and I (I loved her), when my trained asked me which barn I am moving to and I told her, it immediately rung a bell because she knew that this is where my friend moved to and she said that she used to work with her horse, she's a nice lady, I will enjoy her company, etc. But unfortunately she couldn't work with her boy because he was so out of control that he want to kill you in the arena.


----------



## Hoofpic

Speed Racer said:


> Why? It's not difficult. Go up to the owners of the other two horses and say, 'I noticed XXX has been feeding your horses grain when she feeds hers. Don't know if you've given her permission to do that, but I wanted to let you know just in case.'
> 
> 
> One and done. No need to make it into some big drama that it's not.


I don't want my friend to find out that I ratted her out and I don't want my trainer and BO to see me as a tattle tail. 

I have a feeling that my trainer might flip out on my friend, if she found out (doesn't already know) that her boy (who she wants to lose weight, not gain more weight). I didn't see it, nor was i there when my trainer told my friend that she is no longer allowed to bring her boy into the barn when she is doing lessons, so I'm not sure how that transpired. 

My friend is smart, she will know that someone ratted her out and the list of people that it would be, would come down to myself and maybe my other friend, since my friend only goes to the barn when it's dead there.


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## Hoofpic

I forgot to mention, (if this matters much), but my friends other horse is a stud.


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## Hoofpic

Okay I can't take this anymore. I NEED to inform at least my trainer about this (which I am 99.% certain that she currently does NOT know that her gelding is being fed grain). Because if say, eventually she (or the BO) does find out some other way, and then they find out that I knew about it all this time. They both will be incredibly upset at me for not letting them know. I don't want this to happen.

I am scared and this could potentially cost my friendship with this friend. 

I will text my trainer right now, but I need to tell her (or at least give her the hint), to NOT tell my friend (if she was to confront her) that I was the one who told her about it. 

How can I hint this to my trainer? I mean, I would think that she wouldn't by default anyways (after all we are adults right?). She will most likely just go about handling the situation herself and keep our communication aside.

All I know is, I need to do something about it. My other friend knows about this situation (she just found out this past weekend), and she couldn't care less about telling the trainer or BO about this. She said it's not her problem to deal with.


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## egrogan

Hoofpic said:


> Okay I can't take this anymore. I NEED to inform at least my trainer about this


This is all you need to say, particularly if it's in a text:


Speed Racer said:


> Why? It's not difficult. Go up to the owners of the other two horses and say, 'I noticed XXX has been feeding your horses grain when she feeds hers. Don't know if you've given her permission to do that, but I wanted to let you know just in case.'
> 
> One and done. No need to make it into some big drama that it's not.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> This is all you need to say, particularly if it's in a text:


I'm scared like hell right now, but I just sent off the text. :twisted:

I feel like a total rat right now!!!!! :runninghorse2:


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## egrogan

You did the right thing putting the needs of the horses first.


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## Hoofpic

Well after come cooling down, I feel better now for letting it out.

I know this very well could cost my friendship with this one friend, but I did this because it's just not right to let this slip without the trainer and BO knowing. I'm not willing to let these two boys health be a risk over something completely avoidable. 

If something was to happen to their horses, I would feel completely solely responsible for it because I let it happen. Or if my BO or trainer were to find out that I knew all this time but didn't bring it to their attention, our trust and the relationship between them and I would be completely broken. I would perhaps even risk getting kicked out myself. I don't want to take a chance.

Because I know that they keep a good eye on Fly when I am not there. If she is to get a cut or whatever, I know for a fact that they will notify me right away. They always do this with all their boarders. So I'm doing this to look out for Fly too, because I don't want say something to come from all of this and then my trainer and BO won't notify me if Fly was to ever get any injury.

And then of course my working relationship with my trainer and BO. If something was to happen and they found out that I didn't tell them about all of this, how do you think they would feel when teaching me stuff? I highly doubt my trainer could care about our riding lessons or how I am progressing as a rider. So this is something that I am not willing to risk. Not just for the horses sake, but Fly and I's as well.


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## Hoofpic

UPDATE: My trainer replied back and her and the BO are NOT aware of this and said that both of these boys should definitely NOT be on grain. She is VERY UPSET to say the least! But she said thank you for letting her know and that she will put a stop to this and take matters into her own hands.

I have a feeling things aren't going to be very pretty. I just hope it doesn't get too ugly. I'm not one to cause trouble, I promise!!!! 

She asked how much these two boys have been fed and I told her a rough estimate. Just going by my visual memory from what I used to feed Fly, my friend gives each of the two boys about 2lbs each (if not more), and her colt about 10lbs a day.

Because I know one of the big cups (is a lb) and when I fed Fly 1lb a day (when she was on grain), and I poured the grain into the feed tray, it was very very little.


----------



## NavigatorsMom

You did the right thing by letting your trainer know what is going on with the feeding. It is dangerous to feed horses outside of what they need/what their regular feeding schedule is, and if I found out someone was feeding my horse because they can't control their own I would be furious. It doesn't matter that you're "telling on her", because you aren't just doing it to be annoying or cause trouble - you are trying to stop trouble from happening. If she ends her friendship with you because you are doing what's right for the horses, then she doesn't seem like someone very good to be friends with, IMO. 

Now that you've let the trainer know, you don't have to interfere anymore. Things should start getting taken care of.


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## PoptartShop

Well, at least you told them. What's done is done. Their problem to figure out the rest.


----------



## Hoofpic

NavigatorsMom said:


> You did the right thing by letting your trainer know what is going on with the feeding. It is dangerous to feed horses outside of what they need/what their regular feeding schedule is, and if I found out someone was feeding my horse because they can't control their own I would be furious. It doesn't matter that you're "telling on her", because you aren't just doing it to be annoying or cause trouble - you are trying to stop trouble from happening. If she ends her friendship with you because you are doing what's right for the horses, then she doesn't seem like someone very good to be friends with, IMO.
> 
> Now that you've let the trainer know, you don't have to interfere anymore. Things should start getting taken care of.


Thanks to you guys for pushing me to do it. I always wanted to do it all this time, I just didn't want to risk causing trouble or more drama. But this past weekend really changed my light in how I view this boarder.

I love horses (even if they're not my own), far too much to let stuff like this slide. Two+ lbs for each of these two boys is a lot! I am fully aware that both the BO and trainer don't feed grain to any of the other horses at the barn and are generally not a fan of it. 

You saw how much of an effect 1lb of grain had on Fly in the week I brought her over and switched her over to the BO's top grade hay, she had pockets on the sides of her barrel and my BO was the first to notice this and brought it to my attention, asking me how much grain I am feeding her and that she doesn't need it, it will do her and I more harm than good ,etc. He was very serious and blunt about it, but he got the message across because I took Fly off grain that same day.

My trainer is grateful for me telling her. Hopefully this is a serious wake up call to my friend because I don't think it's going to be very pretty. My trainer is very upset and I would only imagine that the BO will be as well. If there is one thing that I learned quickly about them (especially the BO), it's that they don't take a horses diet lightly. 

But at the end of the day, my working relationship and trust between the BO, trainer and I and the safety for Fly far outweigh a friendship with another boarder. If I lose her, then I will suffer the consequences but I fully trust my trainer and BO that they will go about it without spilling out names. 

I need to detach myself from my friend (if I run into her at the barn) and not get involved. Just focus on where I am going with Fly, and don't spend near as much time hanging out with her and her boy talking.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I forgot to mention, (if this matters much), but my friends other horse is a stud.


Of course he is.


----------



## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks to you guys for pushing me to do it. I always wanted to do it all this time, I just didn't want to risk causing trouble or more drama. But this past weekend really changed my light in how I view this boarder.
> 
> I love horses (even if they're not my own), far too much to let stuff like this slide. Two+ lbs for each of these two boys is a lot! I am fully aware that both the BO and trainer don't feed grain to any of the other horses at the barn and are generally not a fan of it.
> 
> You saw how much of an effect 1lb of grain had on Fly in the week I brought her over and switched her over to the BO's top grade hay, she had pockets on the sides of her barrel and my BO was the first to notice this and brought it to my attention, asking me how much grain I am feeding her and that she doesn't need it, it will do her and I more harm than good ,etc. He was very serious and blunt about it, but he got the message across because I took Fly off grain that same day.
> 
> My trainer is grateful for me telling her. Hopefully this is a serious wake up call to my friend because I don't think it's going to be very pretty. My trainer is very upset and I would only imagine that the BO will be as well. If there is one thing that I learned quickly about them (especially the BO), it's that they don't take a horses diet lightly.
> 
> But at the end of the day, my working relationship and trust between the BO, trainer and I and the safety for Fly far outweigh a friendship with another boarder. If I lose her, then I will suffer the consequences but I fully trust my trainer and BO that they will go about it without spilling out names.
> 
> I need to detach myself from my friend (if I run into her at the barn) and not get involved. Just focus on where I am going with Fly, and don't spend near as much time hanging out with her and her boy talking.


You don't need to avoid her, unless you are sick of her already. 
If she asks you if you told, don't lie, tell her why you told them-because what she was doing is wrong & potentially harmful to the horses. You had told her it was wrong & she ignored you so yeah, you told.
Expect her to be mad, so what? The worse that can happen to you is the barn idiot stops talking to you. Everyone else will be happy that you have their backs.
If she doesn't get kicked out I would hope her horse gets put into private turnout. But maybe she'll be so embarrassed she'll leave on her own.


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## Rainaisabelle

Honestly can't believe this person actually exsists to be honest.


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## greentree

natisha said:


> Of course he is.


LOL bwahahaha!


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Of course he is.


No I meant, her other boy is a stallion.


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## tinyliny

and I'm pretty sure Natisha meant something like: "of course, I'm not surprised at all. (that her other horse is a stud), what else would you expect from such a person".


----------



## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> You don't need to avoid her, unless you are sick of her already.


Well I'm not sick of her but I don't see her in the same light as I did before.



> If she asks you if you told, don't lie, tell her why you told them-because what she was doing is wrong & potentially harmful to the horses. You had told her it was wrong & she ignored you so yeah, you told.


I won't lie, I just hope there isn't a big confrontation between the trainer and her. I know the trainer is very ****ed off (same with the BO), this is something that they don't take lightly. The BO gets agitated when he sees people petting horses that aren't theirs without permission, imagine how upset he will be about this whole grain thing. If there's one person who will be the most upset, it will be the BO. 

He may take it easy on my friend though since them two have such a good friendship.



> Expect her to be mad, so what? The worse that can happen to you is the barn idiot stops talking to you. Everyone else will be happy that you have their backs.
> If she doesn't get kicked out I would hope her horse gets put into private turnout. But maybe she'll be so embarrassed she'll leave on her own.


I hate ratting people out (I'm not the person to do this), but I had to do it. I don't want something to happen and have this backfire on me.

If this was any other barn, my friend would forsure be kicked out but I think my BO will be more forgiving with her, maybe just get a warning. I think that if this was any other boarder, the BO would kick that boarder out without hesitation.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> and I'm pretty sure Natisha meant something like: "of course, I'm not surprised at all. (that her other horse is a stud), what else would you expect from such a person".


Oh I get it now, thanks.


----------



## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> Honestly can't believe this person actually exsists to be honest.


Well she's here, I just hope this is a serious wakeup call to her because she has such a great friendship with the BO in that he won't kick her out. I bet if it was anyone else, that boarder would be asked to leave by the BO. I'm sure my friend does not want to tarnish that friendship she has with the BO


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## Hoofpic

I can't ready the Horse & Hound anymore, the articles that they put out are just too negative and heartbreaking. Anyone feel the same? Don't get me wrong, they still put out good reads, but they put out so much negative content.


----------



## greentree

It IS a veterinary journal.....


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## jaydee

greentree said:


> It IS a veterinary journal.....


 Horse and Hound?
No it isn't a Veterinary Journal - its a British horse magazine that covers just about everything from hunting features, competition results and 'write ups' of various shows through to articles on 'how to do' or new research and classified ads
I think what hoofpic is talking about is that they always cover horse abuse cases on their FB feed and as they seem to be a regular occurrence at present they come up a lot. I know they can upset some people but the only way to get public attention to get some government support to address the situation is to inform them about what's going on.
Ignoring these things won't make them go away


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## Hoofpic




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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> Horse and Hound]
> I think what hoofpic is talking about is that they always cover horse abuse cases on their FB feed and as they seem to be a regular occurrence at present they come up a lot. I know they can upset some people but the only way to get public attention to get some government support to address the situation is to inform them about what's going on.
> Ignoring these things won't make them go away


Yes this is what I mean. You are right in that they need to expose these abuse issues in order for them to get addressed. It's just depressing reading about it that's all.


----------



## Hoofpic

One more. These are the only pics I've taken of the horseys this winter. It's not very pleasant working a camera in freezing temps, even with gloves on. Once Spring comes, I will be a lot more active, and very much looking forward to it.


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## jaydee

Hoofpic said:


> Yes this is what I mean. You are right in that they need to expose these abuse issues in order for them to get addressed. It's just depressing reading about it that's all.


 You can't love horses and not be affected by the horrible things that are happening to them. To be totally honest with you I'm still troubled by the thoughts of the poor filly in Ireland that I read about in one article, even my husband was in tears when I told him about it. You can only do what you can though. At least we care which is more than can be said of the horrible people who do these things. I agree, it is terribly depressing.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> You can't love horses and not be affected by the horrible things that are happening to them. To be totally honest with you I'm still troubled by the thoughts of the poor filly in Ireland that I read about in one article, even my husband was in tears when I told him about it. You can only do what you can though. At least we care which is more than can be said of the horrible people who do these things. I agree, it is terribly depressing.


What's the story on the filly in Ireland? You have me curious now. It kinda rings a bell.

You are right, for anyone who loves horses, you cannot NOT be affected by any of the happenings. I would do anything for those horses, regardless of me knowing them.


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## whisperbaby22

This is why I follow this journal. These photos of Fly are great. Yes I know it's freezing up there, but to get down low and get these lovely photos shows a real talent.


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## Hoofpic

whisperbaby22 said:


> This is why I follow this journal. These photos of Fly are great. Yes I know it's freezing up there, but to get down low and get these lovely photos shows a real talent.


Thanks :grin:I'm looking forward and expecting many much better photos to come this year.


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## jaydee

Hoofpic said:


> What's the story on the filly in Ireland? You have me curious now. It kinda rings a bell.
> 
> You are right, for anyone who loves horses, you cannot NOT be affected by any of the happenings. I would do anything for those horses, regardless of me knowing them.


 I'm not sure if it was on the FB feed or in the magazine - I mostly just read the magazine so more likely it was only in there
You asked - but it is very disturbing that there are people who can behave like this
A young filly had been wandering around a housing estate (large subdivision) for some time - a quite familiar site. Some young thugs got hold of her and took it in turns to ride her until she collapsed of exhaustion and then kicked her to death.
What is worse is that this was on an intensively populated area and nothing was done until it was too late. The laws are getting tightened up over there but still too little too late and the horses are still out there and at risk living like this.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I'm not sure if it was on the FB feed or in the magazine - I mostly just read the magazine so more likely it was only in there
> You asked - but it is very disturbing that there are people who can behave like this
> A young filly had been wandering around a housing estate (large subdivision) for some time - a quite familiar site. Some young thugs got hold of her and took it in turns to ride her until she collapsed of exhaustion and then kicked her to death.
> What is worse is that this was on an intensively populated area and nothing was done until it was too late. The laws are getting tightened up over there but still too little too late and the horses are still out there and at risk living like this.


OHHHH THAT IS HORRIFICE!!!!

You don't need to send me a link, you told me enough for me to want to handle.

This was recent and in Ireland?

I don't get how there was no witnesses or anyone to stop this from happening? If I saw that, I would have stabbed all those thugs to death. I would have done anything to save the filly. :icon_frown:

Going by your pic, how are horses allowed in areas like that? I never would have thought horses would be in residential areas roaming across people's front lawns.


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## jaydee

It was sometime last year.
Sometimes people are afraid of the gangs that are doing stuff like this so they just keep their heads down
The horse's roaming on those sort of estates has been happening for a long time, they leave them on school sports fields, parks, fly graze them on other people's land etc


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> It was sometime last year.
> Sometimes people are afraid of the gangs that are doing stuff like this so they just keep their heads down
> The horse's roaming on those sort of estates has been happening for a long time, they leave them on school sports fields, parks, fly graze them on other people's land etc


Who's horses are these? How do they get loose?

This is very concerning to hear. I couldn't imagine the safety risks in random horses here just casually browsing neighbourhood streets. 

People make me sick to my stomach.


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## Hoofpic

So our Spring riding clinic at our barn is in mid April and I have a feeling that I won't look like the same rider as last year. Why? Well even though I have been riding Fly for the past month and getting back in the groove (and I did also ride a few times before that), my core feels a lot stronger as I have been doing core exercises everyday throughout the winter and they have increased as time went on and I only plan on continuing with them. 

Once the Spring arrives, I will be getting back into lessons with my trainer. The last lesson I had with my trainer was Oct 30, 2016. Even though she hasn't asked, I'm sure she has been wondering what's up and why I haven't been doing any lessons with her.


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## jaydee

Hoofpic said:


> Who's horses are these? How do they get loose?
> 
> This is very concerning to hear. I couldn't imagine the safety risks in random horses here just casually browsing neighbourhood streets.
> 
> People make me sick to my stomach.


 Some are abandoned, some belong to people who breed them and have no actual land of their own so they just leave them loose or stick them on other people's land
They aren't micro-chipped and passported (as per law) so no way to trace the owners and with no passports they can't even be slaughtered for meat which leaves local councils footing the bill to euthanize them
Wales (UK) has had a similar problem but they seem to be getting further to sorting it with new laws they've passed but still not enough being done to stop them breeding these horses/ponies


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> Some are abandoned, some belong to people who breed them and have no actual land of their own so they just leave them loose or stick them on other people's land
> They aren't micro-chipped and passported (as per law) so no way to trace the owners and with no passports they can't even be slaughtered for meat which leaves local councils footing the bill to euthanize them
> Wales (UK) has had a similar problem but they seem to be getting further to sorting it with new laws they've passed but still not enough being done to stop them breeding these horses/ponies


This is terrible, I just don't understand how these horses are on free land, I'm guessing they just don't have the land over there? Any other countries this happens in other than Ireland?


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## jaydee

I don't know about other countries
It has nothing to do with not having the land, its about not wanting to pay for the use of the land and these people thinking they have a God given right to own horses and breed horses that they can't afford to care for, don't know how to care for, in many cases not even want to care for. Its like a disease
Anyway enough of this................


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I don't know about other countries
> It has nothing to do with not having the land, its about not wanting to pay for the use of the land and these people thinking they have a God given right to own horses and breed horses that they can't afford to care for, don't know how to care for, in many cases not even want to care for. Its like a disease
> Anyway enough of this................


You are right, enough of this. 

The entire thing about horses free roaming in public places just makes me concerned :-?


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## Reds La Boop

Hoofpic said:


> One more. These are the only pics I've taken of the horseys this winter. It's not very pleasant working a camera in freezing temps, even with gloves on. Once Spring comes, I will be a lot more active, and very much looking forward to it.



You have a really pretty horse. I really like the color.


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## Hoofpic

Reds La Boop said:


> You have a really pretty horse. I really like the color.


Thanks, that's very nice of you. She's a cutie ain't she? She's become a barn favourite


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## Fimargue

Yes, she is an absolute star  I just find it super cute when horses are laying down like this, and when they roll. Seeing horses roll makes me feel happy.


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## Hoofpic

Fimargue said:


> Yes, she is an absolute star  I just find it super cute when horses are laying down like this, and when they roll. Seeing horses roll makes me feel happy.


Thanks. 

Yes she is a star. The first pic, she was about to roll, at least getting ready to and I wanted to get pics of her rolling but, well, she didn't end up rolling, just sleeping lol.


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## Hoofpic

The Mane Event in Red Deer this year is late April and only 3 days as opposed to the regular 4. That is fine because I was only planning on going for 2 days since I'm too busy with work to take the Friday off.

Here is a list of the trainers. Can anyone comment on these namese?

TIA

https://red-deer.maneeventexpo.com/features/clinicians/


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## Hoofpic

Fly turns 6 tomorrow (March 16)


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## tinyliny

the only one I've heard of is Martin Black. but the Kalley Krickenberg person looks interesting.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> the only one I've heard of is Martin Black. but the Kalley Krickenberg person looks interesting.


Thanks Liny.

The list didn't really stand out for me either. No Warwick this year which is really dissapointing. Oh well. What have you heard about Martin Black?

No Parelli this year, which is fine by me, who knows maybe my BO will go this year lol. He can't stand Pat and didn't go last year because he refuses to have his admission go to supporting Pat. 

The event is also only 3 days this year which I thought was interesting, that means less shows, less content, less demos.


----------



## Hoofpic

Fly and I did NOT have a great day today, infact it was probably our worst day together in the past 6 months. Things have been going so well for us the entire winter and the fall and summer, that today totally caught me off guard. But I need to let it go, it's in the past and over with and tomorrow is a new day. No grudges right?

She just wasn't herself today but of course it was my fault for choosing to go out today and do stuff with her. I should have known better, I was not setting us up for success. It was not a great day, yes it was nice out, but the barn is so slushy, muddy and wet right now that it makes it hard for me to walk and lead her, there's just so much slush and water all over the place from all the snow melting (and cause I'm always watching my step making sure I don't slip and fall). 

It was nice when I got the barn but as soon as I went out to catch her, the sun went away, a huge nasty wind came in, everything was blowing like crazy, the herd was going nuts, the dogs were howling and chasing something in the trees, there was fountains of water running down from the roof of the barn and Fly was super hyper and on edge and spooky and on high alert. I'm really dissapointed in myself because if it was still too slick and unstable for me to walk and lead Fly without too much worry on my part, then I shouldn't have haltered her. So I am to blame.


----------



## Hoofpic




----------



## edf

> It was nice when I got the barn but as soon as I went out to catch her, the sun went away, a huge nasty wind came in, everything was blowing like crazy, the herd was going nuts, the dogs were howling and chasing something in the trees, there was fountains of water running down from the roof of the barn and Fly was super hyper and on edge and spooky and on high alert. I'm really dissapointed in myself because if it was still too slick and unstable for me to walk and lead Fly without too much worry on my part, then I shouldn't have haltered her. So I am to blame


While I am not an expert- one thing I think you need to realize- to be able to be that horseman to work with a horse in those conditions- you need the experience in doing it. And the only way that will happen is if you do it. Is every time working with your horse going to be the best? No. In fact, I had a situation where my horse actually kicked out at me while I was trying to get her back foot- what caused it? her unease that a bobcat ( the machine that is, not wild animal) was bringing up stone to level out areas in a horses stall. Part of me just wanted to put her back in the field, but how am I going to learn to be able to calm her through things if I did that? Ok, so I had to give up on picking her hind hoof for safety reasons ( after reprimanding her for the half-butt kick she tried doing)- but once the machine stopped, I resumed and she handled it well.

I do understand what you are going at- you want the best situation ever for the best results. But its not always going to be like that. Mind you, I am not saying do something dangerous to just do it and experience it- but how is haltering Fly and walking her some in those conditions a let down? Maybe the error was you expected too be able to do too much? It's k to decide to dumb things down on the spot. What if some kind of emergency took place and you had to do what you just did? Now, at least you have some experience on how she is going to react.

Its not fun handling a spooky horse- trust me, I know. But thankfully I had to handle a spooky horse, because a hot air balloon snuck up on me one day and it freaked my horse out- and I knew how to handle it.

Basically, don't be so down on yourself. Maybe you were expecting to do much more? I dunno, I am not seeing what you are getting upset about. If you are upset that she was so spooky- find ways to calm her down /refocus on you. If working with her becomes too much for you to handle at that moment- maybe just put her on the cross ties, groom her, then end your session, or just do a little walk in the paddock- you know, to end on a good note ( but only if it doesn't become dangerous)

I kind of get the feeling that maybe you weren't comfortable with the situation, and Fly picked up on it some-in addition to what was already making her act different. Sometimes you just have to fake it until you make it. Sometimes you have to work on simple stuff just to make sure you still have confidence, as well as your horse.


----------



## Hoofpic

edf said:


> While I am not an expert- one thing I think you need to realize- to be able to be that horseman to work with a horse in those conditions- you need the experience in doing it. And the only way that will happen is if you do it.


Yes that is true.



> Is every time working with your horse going to be the best? No.


I agree, no it won't hurt. As much as I initially did not see it, I have gained experience yesterday.



> In fact, I had a situation where my horse actually kicked out at me while I was trying to get her back foot- what caused it? her unease that a bobcat ( the machine that is, not wild animal) was bringing up stone to level out areas in a horses stall. Part of me just wanted to put her back in the field, but how am I going to learn to be able to calm her through things if I did that? Ok, so I had to give up on picking her hind hoof for safety reasons ( after reprimanding her for the half-butt kick she tried doing)- but once the machine stopped, I resumed and she handled it well.


That's a good clear example, thank you. That's how spooky Fly was yesterday (she didn;t kick out, but she was spooky and on edge with the noise of the tractor in the arena (trainer was harrowing), even though Fly has experienced the tractor in the arena before, the tractor is not an everyday thing for her. I mean afterall, its a loud machine that zips around the arena and Fly was not okay with it at first, but after the second and third time of my trainer zipping around, she was noticably more calm. Factor that in with the super wind outside, stuff blowing, dogs howling and running around and it just all accumulated.



> I do understand what you are going at- you want the best situation ever for the best results. But its not always going to be like that.


I know, and I need to look past it. I think the reason why I get so bothered by this is because I feel that I have failed yesterday as Fly's leader.



> Mind you, I am not saying do something dangerous to just do it and experience it- but how is haltering Fly and walking her some in those conditions a let down? Maybe the error was you expected too be able to do too much? It's k to decide to dumb things down on the spot. What if some kind of emergency took place and you had to do what you just did? Now, at least you have some experience on how she is going to react.


Well sometimes I will lead Fly past spooky areas but I didn't yesterday. I just felt that I wasn't setting ourselves up for success. The slushy ice and all the water was definitely a big factor in me feeling more nervous that I normally would be. Not only am I making sure that I don't slip and fall, but also that Fly is fine and I give her extra slack in the lead to let her lower her head to feel her footing if needed.

I don't know what it is, but walking on icy and slippery surfaces makes me nervous. Having a 900lb horse by my side, adds to it.



> Its not fun handling a spooky horse- trust me, I know. But thankfully I had to handle a spooky horse, because a hot air balloon snuck up on me one day and it freaked my horse out- and I knew how to handle it.


I've gotten better but I think the most important thing that I'm realizing is that, no matter how well you get your horse calm around certain things, surroundings, they will still have times and days where they will be on edge simply cause they are still prey animals.



> Basically, don't be so down on yourself. Maybe you were expecting to do much more? I dunno, I am not seeing what you are getting upset about. If you are upset that she was so spooky- find ways to calm her down /refocus on you. If working with her becomes too much for you to handle at that moment- maybe just put her on the cross ties, groom her, then end your session, or just do a little walk in the paddock- you know, to end on a good note ( but only if it doesn't become dangerous)


Okay I won't be too hard on myself. I'm not at all upset at Fly, I'm just upset at myself for not having better judgement and acknowledging that yesterday wasn't a great situation in setting the both of us up for success. I should have known better.



> I kind of get the feeling that maybe you weren't comfortable with the situation, and Fly picked up on it some-in addition to what was already making her act different. Sometimes you just have to fake it until you make it. Sometimes you have to work on simple stuff just to make sure you still have confidence, as well as your horse.


Well I will be honest, yesterday was a lot (in terms of what was happening at the barn, all the distractions, spooky things for the horses etc), I was just caught off gaurd, I haven't had a day like that (in terms of that much chaos going on at once) in a long long time.


----------



## Uze

Well, I did it. It took me a few months of on-and-off reading, but I read all 519 pages. Holy crap.

Well, I've definitely fallen for Fly after reading this entire thread. What a wonderful cute little mare. I can't remember if you ever said, @Hoofpic, but why did you decide to buy Fly? What clicked when you looked at her, and not a different horse, to make you think "that's the horse I want to buy" ?


----------



## StephaniHren

I think situations that make us uncomfortable are how we grow as riders (and as people!). There are times where you go out to the barn and the conditions aren't perfect (maybe the weather is bad, maybe there's a lot of activity happening, maybe somebody's dog got loose, etc.), but I don't think that's a reason to give up and go home. Like @edf was saying, the only way to know how to handle your horse in adverse situations is to handle your horse in adverse situations.

Personally, some of my favorite days working with my horse have been days where the conditions are poor. We've got this mesh netting hung up around our arena to keep the rain out and one of the greatest days I've had on him was a day when the wind was so severe that it was blowing the rain _through_ the mesh. There was water spraying all over us, the mesh was snapping, the roof was rattling, the thunder was just getting started... the weather was downright terrifying, but it was one of our best rides!

I think the important thing to remember when the conditions are suboptimal is to lower your expectations. Instead of spending 45 minutes working on trot to canter transitions, I made our ride into 20 minutes of walk/trot with my only goal being that he stayed focused and listened to me, not the roaring of the storm. That 20 minutes of exposure to the elements was more important to his training than ten sessions of working on transitions, in my opinion. Now I know that if we're out on the trail and a sudden storm hits, it won't matter because he knows what his job is and how I expect him to behave.

I do think your idea of "being a leader" is a little flawed. Being a leader doesn't mean not haltering her when the conditions are bad, it means getting your horse out and 100% convincing your horse that everything is under control and that even if the dogs are barking and the tractor is rumbling by you're not worried about it, so she shouldn't be worried about it either.

Of course you should always set yourself up for success... but that doesn't mean avoiding adverse situations as much as it means adjusting your definition of success.


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## Fimargue

My experience with horses is: if you don't feel comfortable doing something, don't do it. Trust your gut. Within time you will feel comfortable handling more and more situations. You can, and you should, still do stuff on horse's spooky day - it will strengthen the trust. Do things you feel comfortable with and you think you can handle.

If the weather would be super windy and maybe even little rainy on top, as that really sets my mare off usually, I could go and walk her on the road in hand during rush hour. Then I would also walk with her on the road with my grocery bag flapping in the wind in front of her, and I lifted it in the air to shake it as well.


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## Hoofpic

Well another day of heavy wind, stuff blowing, noise around the barn, and slushy snow and a ton of water. A bit less slippery than the other day, but still a challenge at times to walk on the slush and the mud, as the mud is just as slippery if not more slippery than slush. So there's two things you have to deal with. It is so muddy out and you can easily slip from just the mud.

Anyway, I caught Fly, took her down the same path to inside the barn. The wind was blowing, the barn roof was rattling, something behind the parked trailer was making noise that was getting Fly's attention. Fly was uncomfortable at times and spooked near the trailer, and all of a sudden stopped walking. Asked her to walk on, with her ears up and on high alert, she wouldn't go, so I walked right up next to her side, looked to where we were going and said walk on and off we went. 

Like I said, there are HUGE massive rivers of water (from the snow melting) at our barn. Here is the one that is on the way to the barn and where I lead Fly past every single time. 










Once I saw this, I saw to myself that I will walk Fly through it. I know it's not deep, but I've always said to myself that one day I am going to lead Fly through a creak, river, whatever. So we just walked right dead centre in the puddle and I didn't even stopped when going into the puddle, I just walked as if it wasn't there. She just went along with me and it was of no issue to her. 

Same thing after when putting her back in the field, we cut through that same puddle again. It was only about 5" deep but still it was a decent sized pond.

Just to give you an idea how much water is coming into, passing through and draining from the barn, this is the back field at the barn. There is normally no water in this area. As you can see, the water is coming from the field across the road and passing through into this field and draining to the neighbours.










Now here, there is a small pond of water all year round for this herd. But as you see in this pic, look it's a river! The current was moving fast enough that you can even see the waves. I've actually never seen anything like it before and the BO and I were talking about it and watching the water pass.










Now, I had the arena to myself to ride but two of the BO's cats were in the barn crawling along the roof and stalls and wood ledges making a lot of noise. Fly is not very fond of cats so of course she wanted to keep her eye on them lol. I knew that this was a perfect oppurtunity to get her more at ease with cats around so I saddled her up, and there was once where she did a minor spook riding along the closest wall of the arena near the cats (who were dancing and crawling up in the stalls wood ledges), so I ended up circling her back right away to the same spot, giving her extra leg to push her out along the wall and then did it again from her other side and did some 20m circles at the end where the cats were. Eventually, I was able to get her less distracted and less worried by the cats.

She is still not completely comfortable with cats but she is more comfortable and at ease right now than she was hours ago.

Overall, she was still a bit on edge today when going into the barn and with the cats around while riding, but it's much better than last time.


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## Hoofpic

Uze said:


> Well, I did it. It took me a few months of on-and-off reading, but I read all 519 pages. Holy crap.
> 
> Well, I've definitely fallen for Fly after reading this entire thread. What a wonderful cute little mare. I can't remember if you ever said, @Hoofpic, but why did you decide to buy Fly? What clicked when you looked at her, and not a different horse, to make you think "that's the horse I want to buy" ?


Thanks for reading all of it, totally unexpected. 

I'm glad that you love Fly. 

I got Fly because she would rather work with obstacles and ride outside than ride in the arena round and round and round. She gets restless and bored by doing that and I am the same way. Like the previous owner told me, she needs stuff to keep her mind stimulated and riding in an arena going round and round over and over again don't do it (you can still do this, but you just have to change things up with change of direction, circles, serpentines, etc).

Also, I was told that she will try her darn hardest for you and that she's incredibly brave. She may be uncomfortable at times, but like the previous owner told me, she just goes with the flow once you show her the way.

With the previous owner, she has rode Fly in a hackmore and spurs. She also rode Fly over bridges, through creeks, trails, so she is not completely new to the outdoor trail setting.

I still plan on getting Fly more comfortable this year being in a trailer. I would even love to be able to load and unload her myself (obviously with the supervision of my trainer). Fly does not like being in a trailer, she sweats profusely from her being super nervous. She's been in a trailer (for an actual ride) maybe 4 or 5 times in her entire life.


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## Fimargue

You just have to keep trailering her, and she will get used to it with time, but some horses just never stop stressing and sweating in the trailer. 

Good thing for walking her through the big puddle


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I think situations that make us uncomfortable are how we grow as riders (and as people!). There are times where you go out to the barn and the conditions aren't perfect (maybe the weather is bad, maybe there's a lot of activity happening, maybe somebody's dog got loose, etc.), but I don't think that's a reason to give up and go home. Like @edf was saying, the only way to know how to handle your horse in adverse situations is to handle your horse in adverse situations.


I agree, and I think the past two times being out at the barn gave me valuable experience moving forward. I never got to handle Fly in this bad of situations last winter because our winter last year was so light compared to this years. We didn't have near this much slush, mud, snow and ice.

But you have to remember, I never gave up the other day. I just cut our ride short. I still led Fly in the barn and saddled her up. If there is one extremely valuable thing that I have learned over the months, it's that I no longer make excuses for Fly and I see these distractions and annoyances as opportunities to build more trust with Fly. It's just the other day I was totally caught off guard because we haven't had a day like that for many many months.



> Personally, some of my favorite days working with my horse have been days where the conditions are poor. We've got this mesh netting hung up around our arena to keep the rain out and one of the greatest days I've had on him was a day when the wind was so severe that it was blowing the rain _through_ the mesh. There was water spraying all over us, the mesh was snapping, the roof was rattling, the thunder was just getting started... the weather was downright terrifying, but it was one of our best rides!


After yesterday, I am starting to see this as well. It's even better when it's just you, your horse and the distractions around and no other people.



> I think the important thing to remember when the conditions are suboptimal is to lower your expectations. Instead of spending 45 minutes working on trot to canter transitions, I made our ride into 20 minutes of walk/trot with my only goal being that he stayed focused and listened to me, not the roaring of the storm. That 20 minutes of exposure to the elements was more important to his training than ten sessions of working on transitions, in my opinion. Now I know that if we're out on the trail and a sudden storm hits, it won't matter because he knows what his job is and how I expect him to behave.


I do lower my expectations when conditions are poor. 



> I do think your idea of "being a leader" is a little flawed. Being a leader doesn't mean not haltering her when the conditions are bad, it means getting your horse out and 100% convincing your horse that everything is under control and that even if the dogs are barking and the tractor is rumbling by you're not worried about it, so she shouldn't be worried about it either.


I know and this is what I do, I go about things if they are no big deal to me. But it of course is much different when I'm also focused on my footing and me not falling in the mud or ice. It makes a huge difference because when you are leading a horse in such slushy ice, and slippery conditions, you can't walk normally like you would on grass. You take smaller steps, you are having to look down more often, you can't look to where you want to go nearly as well, and you walk much much slower (so there goes your energy from your body lol). But like I said, it's just something I'm experiencing for the very first time since getting Fly since last winter was so light.



> Of course you should always set yourself up for success... but that doesn't mean avoiding adverse situations as much as it means adjusting your definition of success.


I know, but last time I didn't avoid the situation, I did cut our ride short but I still did and went through everything else and I think that was very critical. 

Now just for comparisons in thinking and perspective, I know if this were my friends, they would change their mind and not bring in their horses because it's too slippery, too muddy, the horses won't like the wind, it's too noisy inside the barn and their horses won't be happy with the tractor being inside and their mare is in heat.


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## Hoofpic

Fimargue said:


> My experience with horses is: if you don't feel comfortable doing something, don't do it. Trust your gut. Within time you will feel comfortable handling more and more situations. You can, and you should, still do stuff on horse's spooky day - it will strengthen the trust. Do things you feel comfortable with and you think you can handle.
> 
> If the weather would be super windy and maybe even little rainy on top, as that really sets my mare off usually, I could go and walk her on the road in hand during rush hour. Then I would also walk with her on the road with my grocery bag flapping in the wind in front of her, and I lifted it in the air to shake it as well.


Thanks for the example.

And yes I agree, you have to trust your gut. That is why the other day, I cut my ride on Fly short, something didn't feel right. Was I happy about it? No. Of course I would have liked to ride her much longer, but I just went with my gut. Heck, even when saddling her and bringing her into the arena, I was second guessing if i was going to get on her anymore, but I still did it because I didn't want to make excuses, I didn't want to give up and I didn't want to regret it later that day.

I think that day plus yesterdays have become very valuable for the both of us. We will build from it. 

I will say though, out of all the days that I have handled Fly, the other day was by far the worst in terms of all the distractions and happenings going around. Yesterday was almost just as bad, but bad in some different ways with the cats staying in the barn and making their presence felt.

But I know that Fly is just always super uncomfortable and nervous around the parked trailer. I remember back in summer of last year (When I was seeing my outside trainer), we worked on some desensitizing with Fly at the trailer and she was a bit more comfortable with it. But I know that if you are coming up to it and there is stuff on the other side of it making rumblings and commotion, it's normal for any horse to be nervous about it because they don't know and can't see if it's a predator around the corner about to jump out. So you can do all the desensitizing all you want, but at the end of the day, horses will still spook in some situations.

I remember back in the summer, Fly went through a stretch where we could walk past the trailer and she wouldn't care. Until one day, there was an object just around the corner from the trailer and she spooked lol, cause it's amazing how well horses track objects, where they are and when something is moved, no longer there, etc.

My trainer uses that trailer to haul and some days it will not be there, so if I am walking Fly past that area, she will immediatey take notice. Then when it's back, she will take notice again and act as if it's a new object that she's never seen. 

It's funny because my BO and I have had discussions about this quite a few times about how horses track placements of certain things around the barn all the time. He's seen it time and time again, and it's an interest topic that him and I have talked about. It's just horses being horses.

Like near the trailer now, there is a small ice cream bucket that is tied with bale twine around one of the empty paddock bars. So of course when it was windy the past couple days, this bucket was blowing and moving and making noise. Fly took immediate alert of it and wasn't quite comfortable walking past it.

So what I always do (cause I've been taught this by my previous trainer), was to (at first) put yourself between the scared horse and the big scary object, while walking them past it. Do this a couple times until they are more at ease and less comfortable walking past it, then switch sides and put the horse between the object and you and repeat. Even stand at the object for a couple minutes, and do some desensitizing with the stick and string. Let the horse feed off your energy and detect that the object isn't bothering you at all.


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## whisperbaby22

Yes, you have a lot of water going through there! Here in California we had a large snowpack, and as it melts it is expected to do a lot of flooding.


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## Hoofpic

Fimargue said:


> You just have to keep trailering her, and she will get used to it with time, but some horses just never stop stressing and sweating in the trailer.


Yip forsure.



> Good thing for walking her through the big puddle


I thought so, even though it's only 5" deep or so.


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## Hoofpic

I have a bit of a problem.

I got the schedule for our barn's riding clinic next month (the Spring clinic) and I am riding in a trotting group with 4 other riders. We had 5 riders (including me) in last years Fall clinic and I did not like it at all, I was not at all happy and was quite frustrated because there is just not enough room in the arena to do 20m and smaller circles. 

Our arena is maybe 25m wide. Try having 5 riders TROTTING in a smooth circle being in sync with each other on a 20m circle, and then gradually bring it down to 15m and then 10m, and back out to 20m, all while maintaining that full horse length distance from one another. It is a nightmare! Cause the margin of error in terms of space that you have between the rider in front of you and the one behind you is pretty much zero. One rider's horse slows down a slight bit and then the riders behind have to slow there horses down to maintain that full horse length distance. 

Last Fall, riders in front of me would keep slowing down so I was so caught up in maintaining that full horse length distance in front of Fly as I was actually riding! I had to keep slowing Fly's trot down, weave around the other riders and then create my own circle. It was so annoying.

I will say one thing, when I have Fly trotting at a nice pace and she's got energy in her, I done like or want to have to slow her down because like my trainer says, if she has a nice working pace and the fact that you want, keep her going! Don't interupt it. But the clinic last Fall, I had to keep slowing Fly down (even to a walk at times) and then back up to a trot, all because the riders in front kept slowing down and there was no space on the circle, it was so annoying!

That was with 5 horses, all 15hh except Fly. But this time, it's going to be Fly, three 15hh horses and a 17hh 1800lb curly. Uhhhh good luck with this!

I need to come up with a plan before going in on how I am going to handle this. Last Fall was frustrating with 5 riders, it was super crammed. But last Springs clinic was awesome cause we only had 4 riders (that lack of the extra rider makes all the difference) in a smaller narrower arena.


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## natisha

Hoofpic said:


> I have a bit of a problem.
> 
> I got the schedule for our barn's riding clinic next month (the Spring clinic) and I am riding in a trotting group with 4 other riders. We had 5 riders (including me) in last years Fall clinic and I did not like it at all, I was not at all happy and was quite frustrated because there is just not enough room in the arena to do 20m and smaller circles.
> 
> Our arena is maybe 25m wide. Try having 5 riders TROTTING in a smooth circle being in sync with each other on a 20m circle, and then gradually bring it down to 15m and then 10m, and back out to 20m, all while maintaining that full horse length distance from one another. It is a nightmare! Cause the margin of error in terms of space that you have between the rider in front of you and the one behind you is pretty much zero. One rider's horse slows down a slight bit and then the riders behind have to slow there horses down to maintain that full horse length distance.
> 
> Last Fall, riders in front of me would keep slowing down so I was so caught up in maintaining that full horse length distance in front of Fly as I was actually riding! I had to keep slowing Fly's trot down, weave around the other riders and then create my own circle. It was so annoying.
> 
> I will say one thing, when I have Fly trotting at a nice pace and she's got energy in her, I done like or want to have to slow her down because like my trainer says, if she has a nice working pace and the fact that you want, keep her going! Don't interupt it. But the clinic last Fall, I had to keep slowing Fly down (even to a walk at times) and then back up to a trot, all because the riders in front kept slowing down and there was no space on the circle, it was so annoying!
> 
> That was with 5 horses, all 15hh except Fly. But this time, it's going to be Fly, three 15hh horses and a 17hh 1800lb curly. Uhhhh good luck with this!
> 
> I need to come up with a plan before going in on how I am going to handle this. Last Fall was frustrating with 5 riders, it was super crammed. But last Springs clinic was awesome cause we only had 4 riders (that lack of the extra rider makes all the difference) in a smaller narrower arena.


Suggest they split the group or you could opt out of that exercise.


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a bit of a problem.
> 
> I got the schedule for our barn's riding clinic next month (the Spring clinic) and I am riding in a trotting group with 4 other riders. We had 5 riders (including me) in last years Fall clinic and I did not like it at all, I was not at all happy and was quite frustrated because there is just not enough room in the arena to do 20m and smaller circles.
> 
> Our arena is maybe 25m wide. Try having 5 riders TROTTING in a smooth circle being in sync with each other on a 20m circle, and then gradually bring it down to 15m and then 10m, and back out to 20m, all while maintaining that full horse length distance from one another. It is a nightmare! Cause the margin of error in terms of space that you have between the rider in front of you and the one behind you is pretty much zero. One rider's horse slows down a slight bit and then the riders behind have to slow there horses down to maintain that full horse length distance.
> 
> Last Fall, riders in front of me would keep slowing down so I was so caught up in maintaining that full horse length distance in front of Fly as I was actually riding! I had to keep slowing Fly's trot down, weave around the other riders and then create my own circle. It was so annoying.
> 
> I will say one thing, when I have Fly trotting at a nice pace and she's got energy in her, I done like or want to have to slow her down because like my trainer says, if she has a nice working pace and the fact that you want, keep her going! Don't interupt it. But the clinic last Fall, I had to keep slowing Fly down (even to a walk at times) and then back up to a trot, all because the riders in front kept slowing down and there was no space on the circle, it was so annoying!
> 
> That was with 5 horses, all 15hh except Fly. But this time, it's going to be Fly, three 15hh horses and a 17hh 1800lb curly. Uhhhh good luck with this!
> 
> I need to come up with a plan before going in on how I am going to handle this. Last Fall was frustrating with 5 riders, it was super crammed. But last Springs clinic was awesome cause we only had 4 riders (that lack of the extra rider makes all the difference) in a smaller narrower arena.
> 
> 
> 
> Suggest they split the group or you could opt out of that exercise.
Click to expand...

I suggested to my trainer that they split the group after last Falls clinic. I said 5 is too many for trotters.


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## Dehda01

Sounds like a good way to learn speed control... you need to learn how to ride in large groups and rate your horse eventually and stay safe in a "zone". As long as there aren't any kickers, you learn how to have soft eyes and keep your distance. It can be done... whether you circle across the way, or do a small circle. 

I think group lessons are a good thing once a rider has decent control of their horse. You need to get out of your comfort zone and LEARN new things. And crazy-ish group lessons prepare riders for rather crazy warmup arenas at shows.


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## Hoofpic

Dehda01 said:


> Sounds like a good way to learn speed control... you need to learn how to ride in large groups and rate your horse eventually and stay safe in a "zone". As long as there aren't any kickers, you learn how to have soft eyes and keep your distance. It can be done... whether you circle across the way, or do a small circle.
> 
> I think group lessons are a good thing once a rider has decent control of their horse. You need to get out of your comfort zone and LEARN new things. And crazy-ish group lessons prepare riders for rather crazy warmup arenas at shows.


That's what I'm thinking too, I just need to work with what I got and adapt. As much as I don't like it, I have no choice. 

I mean if these 5 riders rode together all the time and knew how to keep in sync with each other, it wouldn't be an issue. But we don't. And we don't know each other at all aside from seeing each other, and 3 of the 5 are students who just come ride.

I was comfortable with 4, but 5 is too much and especially now that the 5th rider will be a 17hh curly horse, well...as you can imagine, that horse is HUGE! So she's going to take up and require a lot more space than a 15hh horse would.

it will be interesting to say the least. I expect myself to push Fly a lot of times to the outside so I can get around riders when they slow down. It's going to happen a lot. You can't expect me to follow the rest of the horses in front of me when everyone is going at different paces. It's annoying and it's going to irritate Fly. 

I will be recording my rides though. I have two on the Sat and one on the Sunday. So you guys can see, because none of you guys have really seen me ride with a good size group before.


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## natisha

Ok, maybe I didn't understand? Are you talking about 5 in the whole arena or just a smaller area of the arena for one specific exercise?


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## Hoofpic

natisha said:


> Ok, maybe I didn't understand? Are you talking about 5 in the whole arena or just a smaller area of the arena for one specific exercise?


Both. The group of 5 gets the entire arena, but it's 1.5 hours of trotting doing serpentines, 20m circles, 15m circles, 10m circles, without stopping. It's exhausting.

5 in the arena trotting using the full arena is fine, even doing serpentines is fine. But 20m circles? Forget it. Literally all 5 riders have to be perfectly in sync and going at the same pace in order for it to go smooth. And then going from 20m circles to 15m and 10m circles without stopping, uhh no. It's hard enough having 5 riders trotting in sync with one another on a 20m circle, how does anyone expect it to happen on smaller circles?

And now you factor in that one of the 5 horses is going to be a 17hh 1800lb curly horse. This mare is huge, she's like twice the size of Fly lol. And it's not like the other horses are ponies, they're all 15hh horses.

I had fun at the clinic last Spring but I was disappointed with the one in the Fall cause it was so crammed and I spent more time and effort and focus in maintaining and monitoring my distance from the rider in front (and also behind cause the last thing I want is Fly kicking the horse behind and trust me SHE WILL!) and then weaving around them when they start to slow down, than actually riding.

Cause I shouldn't have to slow Fly down because the rider in front of me slowed down. Cause believe it or not, Fly seems to really enjoy riding with other horses, she has a lot of energy in her. 

The clinic last Fall was no fun, I was frustrated after cause of there not being enough space. I got so fed up that I was literally about to call it quits in one of the lessons but I toughed it out until it was done. Seriously though, there was NO SPACE with 5 horses doing 20m circles, and now with one of them being a huge horse, it's going to be a nightmare, I just know it.

The most important thing is that i need to make this fun for Fly.


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## StephaniHren

I think a crowded clinic is just another situation where you've got to adjust your expectations. Focus less on getting Fly to trot the perfect 20m circle and instead make it 1.5 hours of practicing her adjustability (slowing down/speeding up her trot to avoid traffic) and giving her more exposure to a full arena. It'll be good practice for her on listening to you no matter what's happening, and it will be _very_ good practice for you on keeping your eyes up and riding with precision and care.

Stop telling yourself it's going to be a nightmare. Either pull out now, or commit to having a good time—traffic or no traffic.


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## TwoTap

As someone who is learning to step away from negativity myself, I just wanted to throw out there that how you think about a situation is going to help shape how it plays out when it actualy happens. You've already decided that you won't enjoy this upcoming clinic, basically, and so when it happens you most likely won't enjoy it off the principal of the thing. It's hard to be optimistic at times, I get it. I Soo get it. But maybe instead of focusing on not having enough room or how hard it's going to be to work the clinic smoothly, try to focus on what you will gain from it. You will learn better steering, it will really challenge you as a rider and it will be a great experience for Fly to be in a kind of chaotic environment, learning that she can't always work how she wants to. Fly and you will have to work as a team to get through it.

Someone already mentioned warm up ring practice, but have you ever really seen a busy warm up ring? I went to the grand prix once and that ring was a disaster. There were multiple 16-17hh+ horses crammed imto a medium sized ring all doing their own things. Some cantering, some walking, some doing the jump in the middle that was easily 4ft high, probably closer to 5ft. Some tracking left, some tracking right, one stopped to talk to a trainer. It was a nightmare and amazing they weren't all in a jumbled mess. Not to say you'd ever ride in a warm up ring with kind of craziness, but this will be a great way for you to practice being ok with it just in case you find yourself in a much milder version, which it sounds like this clinic will be!

Just take it from a queen of negativity... The whole day will be a lot better if you stop making yourself anxious or worried about it. The last clinic was a let down, so don't have sky high expectations, but also don't be so hard on it that you forget why you wanted to go in the first place!  I look forward to the videos!


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## edf

I get what you are saying. Heck, I have trouble doing circles with just one other person! I have a horse that goes, and the other horse, well, more like 'noes' LOL. I cheat at times and cut across or push her past the other horse when our circles aren't quite circles, or have to get my horse to walk. Our instructor is like 'yous gotta control your speed' but its only half serious since the other horse is just much slower with everything ( its a lazy quarter horse working with a pepped up arab)

BUT here is the deal: the other rider on the quarter horse has to work on keeping him trotting ANd trotting faster. I have to work on posting slower and getting my horse to trot slower- I am getting better control over her speed. It's been a bit since we did any exercises with circles together, so I bet I'll be a little better at it.

I think a little exercise you can do on your own in prep for this is to simply work on trotting different speeds, and even walking at different speeds. See how slow you can get Fly to trot. Start out fast- then go slow. Start slow, then go fast.

Riding in a group takes practice and work in its own. I like riding by myself so I can do what I want. But sometimes, I am with 3 other people in the indoor and that is a pain. But it is a skill worthy of knowing how to deal with. See it as a way to challenge yourself and fly. Not everything we riders work on will be fun, but I am sure if you think about it, you will understand the purpose of it.


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> I think a crowded clinic is just another situation where you've got to adjust your expectations. Focus less on getting Fly to trot the perfect 20m circle and instead make it 1.5 hours of practicing her adjustability (slowing down/speeding up her trot to avoid traffic) and giving her more exposure to a full arena. It'll be good practice for her on listening to you no matter what's happening, and it will be _very_ good practice for you on keeping your eyes up and riding with precision and care.
> 
> Stop telling yourself it's going to be a nightmare. Either pull out now, or commit to having a good time—traffic or no traffic.


I will focus less on getting Fly to trot perfect 20m circles and instead focus on practicing her adjustability. My trainer did show me last year how to get Fly to slow her trot, pick it up etc.

I will be optimistic and not stress about it. I don't want Fly to pick up on it. I want to go in with a light and freed up mind so Fly will be happy and at ease. Like I said, she seems to enjoy these group rides, she loves the company of other horses around her.


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## Hoofpic

TwoTap said:


> As someone who is learning to step away from negativity myself, I just wanted to throw out there that how you think about a situation is going to help shape how it plays out when it actualy happens. You've already decided that you won't enjoy this upcoming clinic, basically, and so when it happens you most likely won't enjoy it off the principal of the thing. It's hard to be optimistic at times, I get it. I Soo get it. But maybe instead of focusing on not having enough room or how hard it's going to be to work the clinic smoothly, try to focus on what you will gain from it. You will learn better steering, it will really challenge you as a rider and it will be a great experience for Fly to be in a kind of chaotic environment, learning that she can't always work how she wants to. Fly and you will have to work as a team to get through it.
> 
> Someone already mentioned warm up ring practice, but have you ever really seen a busy warm up ring? I went to the grand prix once and that ring was a disaster. There were multiple 16-17hh+ horses crammed imto a medium sized ring all doing their own things. Some cantering, some walking, some doing the jump in the middle that was easily 4ft high, probably closer to 5ft. Some tracking left, some tracking right, one stopped to talk to a trainer. It was a nightmare and amazing they weren't all in a jumbled mess. Not to say you'd ever ride in a warm up ring with kind of craziness, but this will be a great way for you to practice being ok with it just in case you find yourself in a much milder version, which it sounds like this clinic will be!
> 
> Just take it from a queen of negativity... The whole day will be a lot better if you stop making yourself anxious or worried about it. The last clinic was a let down, so don't have sky high expectations, but also don't be so hard on it that you forget why you wanted to go in the first place!  I look forward to the videos!


It's going to be a challenge alright and I need to go into it thinking positively, and what Fly and I can gain from it. I just know that when the clinic last Fall was done, I immediately said to myself, "geez, we would have gained much more in a 1 on 1 lesson with my trainer" than that clinic. 

I will go into it with no expectations really and I'm not going to set the bar at all. I will be recording all 3 of my lessons so you guys can see and assess.


----------



## greentree

I think you GAINED a LOT from that clinic!! You learned that you should be working on changes in gait continually, so that all it takes is a thought, you learned to watch what other horses are doing, while still maintaining YOUR horse's performance, you learned to selectively tune your brain into the clinician, and probably a few other things ....Fly learned how to pay attention to YOU, instead of what the other horses were doing....

If you only ever do a one on one lesson, then that is all you will ever know.


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## tinyliny

i't's going to be a hoot! just use laughter to dispell any frustrations from mix ups. think of it as ' bumper cars'. I love bumper cars.


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## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> i't's going to be a hoot! just use laughter to dispell any frustrations from mix ups. think of it as ' bumper cars'. I love bumper cars.


Hehe well I wish it was like bumper cars, we don't want any horses getting kicked now :neutral:

It will be interesting though to say the least, I will stay positive about i.


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## phantomhorse13

Hoofpic said:


> one of the 5 horses is going to be a 17hh 1800lb curly horse. This mare is huge, she's like twice the size of Fly lol. And it's not like the other horses are ponies, they're all 15hh horses.


The size of the horse doesn't matter if the horse's pace is adjustable. This is me on a 17h+ draft cross riding with a friend on her 15h arab:










Both those horses spent hours trotting down the trail very comfortably together, despite their size difference. 




Hoofpic said:


> You can't expect me to follow the rest of the horses in front of me when everyone is going at different paces.


I can. And not only is it a skill you need if you are going to show and deal with a crowded warm up arena, its also a necessary skill on trail. If you are going single file, you need to be able to keep Fly at the pace of the horse ahead of her to maintain a safe distance. Or you may need to adjust your pace to the horse your friend is riding so nobody is being left behind, etc. Speed control is critical.


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## Hoofpic

phantomhorse13 said:


> The size of the horse doesn't matter if the horse's pace is adjustable. This is me on a 17h+ draft cross riding with a friend on her 15h arab:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both those horses spent hours trotting down the trail very comfortably together, despite their size difference.


Oh wow, Okay I see. Unfortunately, I haven't spent a lot of time with Fly in working on adjusting her trot (as in focusing directly on it). I know I should though. My trainer has got me to work on it in our lessons but she mixes it in as we ride. I mean I can still get her to trot fast and slower without stopping, but there's always room for improvement.

She did show me a good excersize to do to gauge and work on speed control, I think I am going to try it in the next few days here. 



> I can. And not only is it a skill you need if you are going to show and deal with a crowded warm up arena, its also a necessary skill on trail. If you are going single file, you need to be able to keep Fly at the pace of the horse ahead of her to maintain a safe distance. Or you may need to adjust your pace to the horse your friend is riding so nobody is being left behind, etc. Speed control is critical.


I see, yes speed control is critical. Let's see how I do in the clinic. I can start early and work on speed control some more until then.


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## Hoofpic

I fell off today for the very first time on any horse I've ridden. I'm okay, Fly is fine. I was trotting Fly coming around a corner and I was pushing her out to the wall with my leg when one of my friends came through the gate at the end of the arena to bring in a poop bucket to clean up poop in the arena. All of a sudden Fly spooked towards the inside of the arena and I was so caught off guard (looking ahead, I saw my friend in my peripheral vision), and just focused on posting and when Fly spooked towards the inside of the arena, my body went the other way. 

Now I didn't fall right away, in fact I just about held on. I leaned to the left and I was holding on mainly with my legs and the reins (though I was not pulling on the reins). Eventually I couldn't hold on any longer and I let go, it wasn't a hard land at all. 

I didn't say anything to her, I didn't get upset, I didn't moan and groan. I just immediately flashbacked that my BO told me, when you fall off a horse, you always need to get immediately back on them.

So I immediately got back on (didnt' take Fly to the mount block) and (even though I was done my ride), I just rode Fly past the area where she spooked a few times and she was fine. When I fell, she was fine and super calm. Perhaps all those times of me doing emergency stops on her has paid off. When she feels me come off, she always automatically whoas.

You can't get better as a rider if you don't fall right? It was bound to happen and I'm glad the monkey is off my back now. Now I know what it feels like to fall off a horse. My BO saw me fall and said I did the right thing by getting right back on Fly. We chuckled too, he said I didn't have much distance to fall lol.


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## carshon

Congrats on surviving your first fall! It is a "club" most riders belong to. You did the right thing and not getting after Fly made it better for her too.


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> Congrats on surviving your first fall! It is a "club" most riders belong to. You did the right thing and not getting after Fly made it better for her too.


Thanks and Fly was 100% calm when I fell off, she (just like any horse would) was just looking out for herself lol. I knew she would be calm and was never worried that she would act up. I fell off, had a chuckle, then got back on her.

For the next time, I think I need to let go of the reins and get my feet out of the stirrups much sooner. I know I was trying to hold on, but I should have given up much sooner. It just puts strain on the saddle. The good news is that my feet came out of the stirrups very easily, which is great.


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## greentree

Puts a strain on the saddle???


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## Tazzie

Hoofpic said:


> I wont fall because I wont allow for it to happen.


I see this didn't ring true :wink: I am glad you didn't get hurt and that Fly is ok. Every horse person falls. Never a matter of "if" but "when."


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## PoptartShop

Not sure what you mean by putting the strain on the saddle? The saddle is fine.

Falling is inevitable, it can happen when you least expect it. I've fallen off by simply losing my balance with the horse standing still trying to open a gate, he went forward and off I went! :lol: If you feel like you are going to fall, just fall. Don't stress about the saddle, the saddle is just fine. You won't 'strain' it. 

Trying to stay on works sometimes, but not always. You can always get right back on.


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## tinyliny

Good to get that out of the way, . . .falling , I mean. it's good that it was an easy fall. most of them are, though you never can tell. 

don't worry about the strain to the saddle. it should be able to take that. sometimes holding on too long only puts you in a more precarious position, where you'll land in an odd way. sometimes it doesn't. sometimes it helps to lower you to a place closer to the ground, so you let go and have very little distance to actually fall.

every time I've fallen, (17 in total), I have that moment of panic, when I KNOW I am going down and I worry that my feet won't come out of the stirrups (I ride in English irons). and every time, knock on wood, they do. but, I know the degree of concern it can cause.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Puts a strain on the saddle???


One of the saddle shops here told me a while back when you fall :cowboy:I guess it's not true.


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## Hoofpic

Tazzie said:


> I see this didn't ring true :wink: I am glad you didn't get hurt and that Fly is ok. Every horse person falls. Never a matter of "if" but "when."


I agree, every rider will fall. If anything, I'm glad I didn't put out my back. Though my core is a lot stronger now after doing excersizes throughout the winter everyday, it still has a ways to go.


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## Hoofpic

PoptartShop said:


> Not sure what you mean by putting the strain on the saddle? The saddle is fine.
> 
> Falling is inevitable, it can happen when you least expect it. I've fallen off by simply losing my balance with the horse standing still trying to open a gate, he went forward and off I went! :lol: If you feel like you are going to fall, just fall. Don't stress about the saddle, the saddle is just fine. You won't 'strain' it.
> 
> Trying to stay on works sometimes, but not always. You can always get right back on.


Good to hear that the saddle is fine.

I'm glad I got my first fall over with, I knew it was going to happen eventually. The best part IMO is that I immediately got back on. 

I know my BO said that if you ever fall, get bucked off a horse, reared, whatever...you need to immediately get back on.


----------



## Hoofpic

tinyliny said:


> Good to get that out of the way, . . .falling , I mean. it's good that it was an easy fall. most of them are, though you never can tell.
> 
> don't worry about the strain to the saddle. it should be able to take that. sometimes holding on too long only puts you in a more precarious position, where you'll land in an odd way. sometimes it doesn't. sometimes it helps to lower you to a place closer to the ground, so you let go and have very little distance to actually fall.
> 
> every time I've fallen, (17 in total), I have that moment of panic, when I KNOW I am going down and I worry that my feet won't come out of the stirrups (I ride in English irons). and every time, knock on wood, they do. but, I know the degree of concern it can cause.


My first fall went well, I knew when Fly spooked that something was happening and half a second later I knew I was going to fall lol. At first I thought I was going to be able to hold on, but I couldn't, Fly shifted to the right so sharply that I was caught off guard, plus I was trotting. 

The best part is that Fly was calm when I fell. She wasn't nervous at all, probably because I wasn't? If I was nervous and upset, chances are that she would have been too when it happened?

A good and beneficial experience for the both of us.

I know once I fell off, my friend kept saying "oh, maybe she's in heat"...."well it is really windy outside"......."maybe she's just having a mare day". I just wanted to tell her to STOP making excuses because I do not make excuses for Fly and I. Uhh it's so annoying!!!


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## Hoofpic

So the big horse expo is next weekend and I am taking a look at the schedule and circling and planning what I will be visiting and auditing.

https://red-deer.maneeventexpo.com/attend-the-mane-event/schedule/

I haven't heard of any of those trainers before.

Last year I went 4 days, this year I will only go on the Sat and Sun because I can't take the Friday off work.

They have the cowboy dressage which I find interesting. There's some stuff that wasn't there last year like Ranching, roping, more dressage and more barrel racing.


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## TaMMa89

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## Hoofpic

Here is my first ride from yesterday. I didn't record the second one in the afternoon, I figured the first would be better because both Fly and I were exhausted on the 2nd one especially about half way into it lol.


Some notes on this first ride and from yesterday

*Positives: *

+ Fly did really good yesterday, she was exhausted lol
+ I didn't have any issues of me accidentally leaning or falling forward (something that I was notorious for last year cause my core wasn't strong enough). I know my core can still get stronger, but it's night and day better (having me working on it throughout the winter) right now than it was 6 months ago. And I've noticed that it makes a HUGE difference.
+ Because of this, I felt my sitting trot is much better
+ I have a much easier time of not just leaning back and sitting straight, but also maintaining that.
+ the 17hh 1600lb curly horse didn't end up riding in our group, I was happy to hear it.
+ Everyone loves Fly's saddle
+ Everyone was impressed by how well Fly stands for me at the mounting block. Fly knows the drill by now and she does it very well. I will get a video of this in today's ride. 
+ I recently over the past month just taught her to lower her head before I unbridle her. There's still room for improvement, but by lowering her head first, it allows for the bit to come out of her mouth smoother and she isn't fussing near as much with her head going up and back.
+ I was fully in the groove about 10mins into the first ride
+ I was able to canter Fly a few times for a few steps. I didn't want to do it (cause I told the trainer) that I need work on it and haven't done it since the Fall and it was with my trainer and she insisted I did it, so I tried and got a few steps from her. My trainer knows that cantering work is something that I only work on when in a lesson and not on my own and she understood when I told her this. Just because I'm still not 100% comfortable with the que, seating, etc. I'm getting better and getting the hang of it more, but still work to be done on my part. Once I get into the canter, I am fine, my balance is there, I am leaned back. I just need to keep my hands down in the canter and I need to work on my que in giving the canter. Also me leaning way back and lean well ahead. 



*Stuff I need to work on:*

- I need to be able to bend Fly better. It's on me. My inner leg strength needs to get stronger so that I am able to trot (Whether its post or sit) her on a 20 or 15m circle and have my inner leg pressed against her to bend her. Right now, I have the coordination to do it, but it's tough. So I'm thinking about (on top of my core excersizes that I've been doing all winter), doing leg squats to get my leg strength better. 

- half way into the 2nd lesson, my core was starting to get tired. 

- I need to be able to adjust the rein length by hand a lot quicker and easier, cause it calls for this when doing all these transitions, 20m circles, down to 15, back to 20, etc.

- I'm considering getting shorter reins (most likely 8ft or whatever the default is). Why? Cause there are a lot of times where the excess of my 12ft (may be 10, not sure) reins get in the way. I find there is just too much excess hanging. For me, less clutter the better.

- I've been riding with a crop for the past 6 months or so, but I am going to try ditching it today and see if I do any better on the circles. I almost never have to use the crop on Fly and I've never had to whack her with it. The only time I use it really is when I get her to stand at the mounting block for me, sometimes I need to get her HQ closer to me so I just use it to tap her hind end with it.

Yesterday I rode without my half chaps and I felt I did fine, but I got slight bruises on shins from parts of the saddle (believe it's the fenders or just below it) rubbing against my legs, it's very annoying. So today I will ride with my half chaps on, I feel that I still prefer to ride with them on. I have no issue with any rubbing going on.


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## NavigatorsMom

Nice to see a video of you riding again! 

Just skipped around it as 56 minutes is long, but it looked like a good time. Clinics are fun learning experiences and it seems like you've got a good list of things to work on.


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## Hoofpic

NavigatorsMom said:


> Nice to see a video of you riding again!
> 
> Just skipped around it as 56 minutes is long, but it looked like a good time. Clinics are fun learning experiences and it seems like you've got a good list of things to work on.


Thanks. I just wanted to put it up, I don't expect anyone to watch the entire thing. :smile:


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## Hoofpic

Do you guys remember back in the first week of October when I got my new saddle and the first lesson with my trainer I rode in it with a new pad (that I was experimenting with) and the pad caused the saddle to slip while trotting and I had to do an emergency landing? Then my trainer was really questioning on why I got a new saddle and whether I was just wasting my money and that she felt (she didn't say it but I know she felt this way) that I should go back to the old saddle.

Well that is the last lesson that I have done with her and she hasn't seen me ride on Fly for all this time up until yesterday, that is over 6 months!

I think this is clear proof that sometimes you just need to give a new saddle time. Yes the first few rides in the new saddle felt really awkward and perhaps uncomfortable at times, because going from a roping saddle to a barrel saddle I would think there is going to be some adjustment and I immediately noticed it. My sitting trot was terrible at first, I had to get used to the new seat, etc.

Right now, I feel just as comfortable (if not more) in the new saddle as I did in the old one. 

I really hope that this past weekend proved to my trainer that I did not make the wrong call at the time in getting a new saddle and yes the saddle fits and yes I can ride in it just as well as the old saddle. Because yes at the time she did really question my actions and especially why I got a barrel saddle of all saddles when I don't even barrel race. Because after all, a smaller and lighter saddle generally gives the rider less support right?

Because where we left things off at our last lesson way back in October, there was a bit of tension and I'm sure she has been wondering why I haven't contacted her since to do any more lessons. But I will be starting back up with her in May.


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## Hoofpic

Has anyone tried this?

2:25 and on. I am really considering trying this with Fly to get her to stand once I get on her each time. 






I have done flexions with Fly before but she's a bit lazy when doing them. Any tips on how to do them softer?


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## Hoofpic

Some random cute videos I took today.


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## StephaniHren

Hoofpic said:


> I am really considering trying this with Fly to get her to stand once I get on her each time.
> I have done flexions with Fly before but she's a bit lazy when doing them. Any tips on how to do them softer?


Keep in mind that when Clinton Anderson does these flexions, he's _not _doing them to get his horse to stand still. The horse is already still and waiting—if Fly is walking off when you get on her, that's not something you fix with flexions. Typically if I have a horse that walks off, I immediately halt and back them up, then dismount and remount. Rinse and repeat until they don't move an inch, then praise.

Those videos were very cute! What camera did you shoot them on?


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## ChristineNJ

Hoofpic said:


> Fly's previous vet (while at the old barn) has this. I can try contacting them in the morning to send me the info and pass onto the new vet tomorrow for their records.


Didn't you have that information on shots from your old barn to give to the new barn?? How did you get into the new barn without giving the new barn owner Fly's shot record??


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## Hoofpic

StephaniHren said:


> Keep in mind that when Clinton Anderson does these flexions, he's _not _doing them to get his horse to stand still. The horse is already still and waiting—if Fly is walking off when you get on her, that's not something you fix with flexions. Typically if I have a horse that walks off, I immediately halt and back them up, then dismount and remount. Rinse and repeat until they don't move an inch, then praise.
> 
> Those videos were very cute! What camera did you shoot them on?


Thanks that makes sense, thanks for pointing that out to me. I thought in the CA video that I watched that CA was doing flexions as soon as he mounted a horse to fix them from walking off.

I used my Panasonic G7 for those videos. I have a 12-35 f2.8 lens on it so it's one of Panasonic's flagship lenses. I plan to do a lot more videos this year.


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## Hoofpic

ChristineNJ said:


> Didn't you have that information on shots from your old barn to give to the new barn?? How did you get into the new barn without giving the new barn owner Fly's shot record??


Fly never got any shots done from the previous owner so she had no record. When I got to the new barn, he asked what shots she has had and when and I told him.


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## Hoofpic

Not sure what happened today during the daytime but after speaking with the BO and we found the bottom wire at the very back of Fly's field down, either Fly rolled and got caught up in the bottom wire or she kicked out and happened to get her back left leg caught on the bottom wire. 

It's likely her rolling into it and accidentally getting caught up in it because Fly gets along well with the two mares next door.

We won't know, no one saw it happen until I got to the barn today and noticed a couple cuts on her back left leg. It looked really really bad at the time cause there was blood all the way down her leg but once I cold rinsed it, it looked much better.

I used a clean dry towel to stop any bleeding, then cold rinsed it to see the wound better, then sprayed saline solution on it. Then after speaking with the BO and getting him to check it out, we sprayed betamine on it and put some Vit E cream on it after.

When I first saw it, I was a bit worried cause there was blood all over, but Fly seems to be walking fine and putting weight on that leg just fine. 

I got my BO to check it out to see if he would wrap it and he said he wouldn't because essentially you want it to scab ASAP and wrapping it will really slow the healing. Plus that's such an awkward spot if you were to wrap it because once she lays down, that back leg bends. 

The good news is that I don't need stitches, didn't need to have the vet out so that's good.

I will be cleaning it everyday for at least the next 4-5 days until a nice scab forms (which is usually 48hrs after), or longer if needed, all depending how quick it heals. Can't risk getting infected.

Clean it by squeezing cold water from a sponge, I have a huge sponge that is amazing cause it holds a lot of water.
Then spray saline solution
Then spray betamine
Then put on vit E cream.


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## gottatrot

Poor Fly. That should heal up nicely.

I wouldn't recommend putting Vitamin E into the wound. Anecdotally, people say it can help wounds heal. However, there is not much evidence for this, and it is known that it can be an irritant for some people/animals and actually prevent healing.

Betamine is a steroid, so it will prevent the immune system from working on healing the wound. It is sometimes used sparingly after a wound has started to heal if there is an issue with proud flesh/overproduction of skin cells, because it impedes the skin growth. So I wouldn't use that one unless the wound develops an overgrowth of tissue at some point. This type of wound that is not so deep will probably not have an issue with overgrowth.

The best thing you can do is clean the wound with water and saline and watch for infection. Betadine or antiseptic is good for the first day or two to make sure the wound is clean, but after that any antiseptic will only prevent the new skin cells from growing in. 
Your barn owner is right that wrapping will often do more harm than good. Leaving it open and keeping it clean is usually the best treatment.


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## jaydee

It looks as if it'll heal OK without too much outside help
The only time I cover a wound is when the flies are about, they carry infection, cause irritation to open wounds which can then result in the horse biting or kicking at the wound to remove them which impedes healing and they can also lay eggs in open wounds and next thing you know you've got maggots in it


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## Hoofpic

gottatrot said:


> Poor Fly. That should heal up nicely.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend putting Vitamin E into the wound. Anecdotally, people say it can help wounds heal. However, there is not much evidence for this, and it is known that it can be an irritant for some people/animals and actually prevent healing.


I know there is debate on whether to use Vit E or not. I've used Vit E on Fly before from her previous injury at the old barn (which was much much more cuts, though surface only), and Vit E works really good on her. I opted for the cream this time and not the oil because 1) the oil is very sticky and difficult to apply and 2) it attracts dirt like crazy, whereas the cream does not. 



> Betamine is a steroid, so it will prevent the immune system from working on healing the wound. It is sometimes used sparingly after a wound has started to heal if there is an issue with proud flesh/overproduction of skin cells, because it impedes the skin growth. So I wouldn't use that one unless the wound develops an overgrowth of tissue at some point. This type of wound that is not so deep will probably not have an issue with overgrowth.


Oh interesting, didn't know this thank you. So bedadine should NOT be used everyday? What about every couple days?

Is Bloraform any different in that it can be used everyday?

I know the BO mentioned that bedadine is more milder.



> The best thing you can do is clean the wound with water and saline and watch for infection. Betadine or antiseptic is good for the first day or two to make sure the wound is clean, but after that any antiseptic will only prevent the new skin cells from growing in.


Thanks. Well what I will do is pick up some bedadine anyways, (since I don't have any) and I can't always rely on other's first aid stuff. It's essential to have on hand when needed.

I will apply the bedadine again today but I won't after that. Like you said, just cold rinse and saline after and leave it.



> Your barn owner is right that wrapping will often do more harm than good. Leaving it open and keeping it clean is usually the best treatment.


Great to hear. I learn something everyday. When I first saw the injury, I immediately thought I had to wrap it.


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> It looks as if it'll heal OK without too much outside help
> The only time I cover a wound is when the flies are about, they carry infection, cause irritation to open wounds which can then result in the horse biting or kicking at the wound to remove them which impedes healing and they can also lay eggs in open wounds and next thing you know you've got maggots in it


Thanks, I will have to keep an eye on the flies and bugs. They are out but good thing it's not summer right now so they are very light right now and not an issue. 

I could not imagine having to spray fly spray on an open wound like that, it can't be good for healing.

Dumb question, would I still be fine riding her? I know her leg is fine and she's not favouring it but I'd be worried about the arena sand and dust getting up in the wounds since it does get very dusty.


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## GMA100

Poor girl! Hope she heals up quick!







Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, I will have to keep an eye on the flies and bugs. They are out but good thing it's not summer right now so they are very light right now and not an issue.
> 
> I could not imagine having to spray fly spray on an open wound like that, it can't be good for healing.
> 
> Dumb question, would I still be fine riding her? I know her leg is fine and she's not favouring it but I'd be worried about the arena sand and dust getting up in the wounds since it does get very dusty.



What do you mean "it's not summer yet"??:wink: jk It's getting around 80-90F where I live!:-( I do wish I lived in Canada sometimes!



And NO question it dumb if you want to learn! If I were you, I would wait till it scabbed up and started healing before I rode her.


----------



## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> Poor girl! Hope she heals up quick!
> 
> 
> What do you mean "it's not summer yet"??:wink: jk It's getting around 80-90F where I live!:-( I do wish I lived in Canada sometimes!
> 
> 
> And NO question it dumb if you want to learn! If I were you, I would wait till it scabbed up and started healing before I rode her.


Thanks.

Also, this sucks because my trainer and one of the barn helpers is going to a nice provincial park this Monday (holiday here in Canada) to do some light trail riding and my trainer just asked me this morning if Fly and I would like to come along.

Of course I want to go! This is what I've been wanting to do for awhile now, take Fly off the property and experience other environments. This would be a great oppurtunity for Fly to get more comfortable in a trailer and she will be with 2 other horses.

But now with her injury, and you suggesting that I do not ride her until the cuts scabbed up, it looks like I shouldn't accept my trainers offer. Right? I guess it depends how quickly her leg scabs up. I know Sunday will technically be the 3rd "full" day of healing and she might scab up by then. 

This sucks, just bad timing that's all. 

I might have to tell my trainer that I will let her know on Sunday, all dependent on how quickly Fly scabs up. 

But even if she does scab up by then, I'm not sure about the bug situation out in the park so I don't know if flies and bugs hang out and attack scabs or not.


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## GMA100

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Also, this sucks because my trainer and one of the barn helpers is going to a nice provincial park this Monday (holiday here in Canada) to do some light trail riding and my trainer just asked me this morning if Fly and I would like to come along.
> 
> Of course I want to go! This is what I've been wanting to do for awhile now, take Fly off the property and experience other environments. This would be a great oppurtunity for Fly to get more comfortable in a trailer and she will be with 2 other horses.
> 
> But now with her injury, and you suggesting that I do not ride her until the cuts scabbed up, it looks like I shouldn't accept my trainers offer. Right? I guess it depends how quickly her leg scabs up. I know Sunday will technically be the 3rd "full" day of healing and she might scab up by then.
> 
> This sucks, just bad timing that's all.
> 
> I might have to tell my trainer that I will let her know on Sunday, all dependent on how quickly Fly scabs up.
> 
> But even if she does scab up by then, I'm not sure about the bug situation out in the park so I don't know if flies and bugs hang out and attack scabs or not.



It really all depends on how well *you* think she would do. If you aren't sure, why don't you ask your BO or trainer?


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## jaydee

You can use SWAT around the wound to deter flies but you shouldn't put it on the wound. 
Looking at the way that one wound is quite open and where its situated I personally wouldn't ride her


----------



## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Also, this sucks because my trainer and one of the barn helpers is going to a nice provincial park this Monday (holiday here in Canada) to do some light trail riding and my trainer just asked me this morning if Fly and I would like to come along.
> 
> Of course I want to go! This is what I've been wanting to do for awhile now, take Fly off the property and experience other environments. This would be a great oppurtunity for Fly to get more comfortable in a trailer and she will be with 2 other horses.
> 
> But now with her injury, and you suggesting that I do not ride her until the cuts scabbed up, it looks like I shouldn't accept my trainers offer. Right? I guess it depends how quickly her leg scabs up. I know Sunday will technically be the 3rd "full" day of healing and she might scab up by then.
> 
> This sucks, just bad timing that's all.
> 
> I might have to tell my trainer that I will let her know on Sunday, all dependent on how quickly Fly scabs up.
> 
> But even if she does scab up by then, I'm not sure about the bug situation out in the park so I don't know if flies and bugs hang out and attack scabs or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It really all depends on how well *you* think she would do. If you aren't sure, why don't you ask your BO or trainer?
Click to expand...

I know Fly will be fine, she doesnt seem too bothered over this injury and Ive ridden her while in heat before many times and she was good as gold.

My main concern really is the bugs out there (if they are bad) and is it safe trailering a horse with cuts on the leg?


----------



## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> You can use SWAT around the wound to deter flies but you shouldn't put it on the wound.
> Looking at the way that one wound is quite open and where its situated I personally wouldn't ride her


Does the back leg bend a bit more when a horse is ridden? Do you think any chance the wound will start bleeding again once weight is put on the horse and the horse has to use that leg muscle more?


----------



## Greenmeadows

Hoofpic said:


> Does the back leg bend a bit more when a horse is ridden? Do you think any chance the wound will start bleeding again once weight is put on the horse and the horse has to use that leg muscle more?


I think it will probably bleed when moving a lot. I'm not sure I would ask much of her, due to that fact. You want it to scab over, not keep breaking open. She might do fine attitude wise, but it may not be the greatest on her health.


----------



## Hoofpic

Greenmeadows said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the back leg bend a bit more when a horse is ridden? Do you think any chance the wound will start bleeding again once weight is put on the horse and the horse has to use that leg muscle more?
> 
> 
> 
> I think it will probably bleed when moving a lot. I'm not sure I would ask much of her, due to that fact. You want it to scab over, not keep breaking open. She might do fine attitude wise, but it may not be the greatest on her health.
Click to expand...

But her walking is good, it will promote healing. I walked her for 30mins just around the barn today after cleaning.


----------



## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Also, this sucks because my trainer and one of the barn helpers is going to a nice provincial park this Monday (holiday here in Canada) to do some light trail riding and my trainer just asked me this morning if Fly and I would like to come along.
> 
> Of course I want to go! This is what I've been wanting to do for awhile now, take Fly off the property and experience other environments. This would be a great oppurtunity for Fly to get more comfortable in a trailer and she will be with 2 other horses.
> 
> But now with her injury, and you suggesting that I do not ride her until the cuts scabbed up, it looks like I shouldn't accept my trainers offer. Right? I guess it depends how quickly her leg scabs up. I know Sunday will technically be the 3rd "full" day of healing and she might scab up by then.
> 
> This sucks, just bad timing that's all.
> 
> I might have to tell my trainer that I will let her know on Sunday, all dependent on how quickly Fly scabs up.
> 
> But even if she does scab up by then, I'm not sure about the bug situation out in the park so I don't know if flies and bugs hang out and attack scabs or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It really all depends on how well *you* think she would do. If you aren't sure, why don't you ask your BO or trainer?
Click to expand...

I asked my BO today and he said he wouldnt be hesistant in taking her to the trails on Monday. He said to get some SWAT if im concerned with the bugs up there.

He told me to cold rinse her cuts today and I did just that. I put saline solution on , then put benadine on it, then Vit E cream.

This is quite the process, took me quite awhile. Fly did not like me putting all that stuff on especially the Vit E cream. I just put small globs on the spots, no rubbing or touching with me bare hands. Im sure those spots feel like burns to her.


----------



## GMA100

She most likely will swell like crazy tonight.


----------



## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> She most likely will swell like crazy tonight.


According to my BO today, she was a bit swollen this morning at feeding and told me to cold rinse and walk her. When I saw it, thw swelling came down a bit.

He said shes been mobile in the pasture all day so thats good.


----------



## Hoofpic

I have to let me trainer know tomorrow whether I would like to come along with them on the trail ride on Monday. If that is the case, then the chances of me being able to go is very very slim. BUMMER!

It's still only the day after of this happening and IMO it will be at least a few days before a scab starts to form and you see a significant improvement in the healing. 

Aside from that, I think I have a much bigger issue on my hands. I can tell the BO is upset with me. This was not at ll intentional, but yesterday, when he and my friend were scouring the field to check for where Fly could have got injured, I was there as I was putting Fly back in the field and I asked if the injury was from today and immediately he said "yes"...and it definitely wasn't there when he was feeding in the morning. Which I believe him and never even had a sliver of doubting him. 

But apparently he took offense to it and if so, then that is my fault for asking such a stupid question. I asked it because I don't have the eye for telling when injuries happened, not because I was questioning him on whether the injury happened a previous day and I wasn't told about it.

WHen I got to the barn today and said hi to him, he was clearly upset. I didn't bring the topic up because I didn't know how to address it or if I even should.


----------



## Hoofpic

It's finished and Fly is back home with the herd again. 

I am so proud of her, she did awesome! There was a lot that I learned and some stuff I could have done better but I am happy with her today. I did the SWAT method for on her wounds (like others have suggested on here, thank you BTW) and it seemed to do the trick. I will have to pick up a tub of my own tomorrow (does this stuff really help heal open wounds like it says it does or is it just a fly repellent?)

I have a bunch of videos that I am putting into one, it should be up in the next day or two. There was some pretty muddy parts on the trail and it sure was a lot of work cleaning those legs once we got back to the barn. It took me quite some time to cold hose her wounds and get it clean, then put more SWAT back on the open wound.

In the meantime, here are some pics.


















At lunch time, there was a bareback club arriving and I wanted to get a pic of all of them with their heads peaking out their windows (as they arrived) looking around but I missed it, they unloaded so fast. And of course Fly and the gang got so excited as they saw the trailer pull in hehe. 










The crew today


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## Hoofpic




----------



## Hoofpic

Here you go guys. I couldn't spend too much time with the editing but it still took me a good hour and a half. I left out some quiet parts cause I know you guys don't want to sit through an hour video.


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## carshon

Hoofpic - I did not watch the entire video (about half) but I want to tell you that the ladies you rode with are fantastic! And Fly tried so hard - I do not want to critique too much but I honestly think your reins were too short - you could see in your shadow that you were leaning forward. That being said nerves will do that to all of us and I think over all you did a great job. I hope you enjoyed your ride and thanked your fellow riders. They were a huge help and gave excellent advice and encouragement. With more rides like this Fly (and you) will be seasoned trail riders. 

so happy you were able to go.


----------



## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> Hoofpic - I did not watch the entire video (about half) but I want to tell you that the ladies you rode with are fantastic! And Fly tried so hard - I do not want to critique too much but I honestly think your reins were too short - you could see in your shadow that you were leaning forward.  That being said nerves will do that to all of us and I think over all you did a great job. I hope you enjoyed your ride and thanked your fellow riders. They were a huge help and gave excellent advice and encouragement. With more rides like this Fly (and you) will be seasoned trail riders.
> 
> so happy you were able to go.


Thanks for the lovely comments.

I had a feeling that I was going to get harped on and ridiculed by some on here about some of the struggles that I went through during the ride. Obviously it was a first time for Fly and I outside the barn property and I learned a lot for the next time.

I was a bit nervous when we first started but after a few minutes of some deep breaths I really started to relax. Fly did as well and the longer we went through the ride, the more she relaxed, it was a pretty significant difference in her.

Yes you are right, my reins were too short when we crossed the bridge, puddles etc. I was a bit nervous when we first came across those bridges, but after some seconds passed, I was a lot more relaxed. I wasn't nervous because I doubted myself in getting Fly over the bridges (I knew I could do it), but because it was a completely new environment for me, new surroundings and obviously the first time being in it to take it all in.

That one mud puddle (with the legs on the left side) where I struggled getting her over, I was nervous cause I didn't know if she was going to jump it or take a big step. So in a way I was preparing to just hold on and in another way I was trying to get her to move forward. However, the second time crossing it (even though she was still a lot more hesistant going through it than both of the bridges), she was a lot better.

*NOTE: FOR THOSE WHO HAVE WATCHED MY VIDEO OR WILL BE WATCHING IT, WATCHING THE SECOND HALF OF THE VIDEO IS VERY KEY AS WE RE-VISITED THE SAME TRAIL AFTER LUNCH AND YOU WILL SEE A SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT IN FLY AND I GETTING OVER THOSE BRIDGES AND PUDDLES. *

I give full props to my trainer for suggesting we re-ride the bridges and puddles over again by doing the same trail all over again after lunch. It was huge and very key in Fly and I revisiting it not long after.

I also give credit to all the other bystanders and cyclists on the trail. They were all very courteous and saw that we were on horses and did not try to creep up or speed by. They all stopped and pulled off to the side and let us go by them. Obviously you could tell in the first part of the video, that this was the very first time that Fly has been around people on bikes. She never really warmed up to the cyclists, but she did get more at ease throughout the ride and as we came across more on the trail.

I definitely thanked my riders (one was my trainer) and they said that Fly did so well on the trail and she deserves all the credit.


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## Hoofpic

pics of the bareback riding club. I was so wanting to get a close up pic straight across the trailer of all the horseys with their heads peaking out but like I said, they unloaded so fast and we were eating our lunch quick, so I didn't have enough time .

Not everyday that you come across a trailer like this (at least for me anyhow).

But here are a couple screenshots from my action cam as I was passing by on the way back at the end of the day. I wanted to go up closer but I figured it wasn't a good idea.

First image: I just loved the black and white paint in the first stall here, he was making funny faces at us as we rode by haha.


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## egrogan

Yes, great riding buddies! All new trail horses and riders should get this kind of supportive and sympathetic introduction to the outdoors  Really great how she went through the "scary" stuff with so much more confidence the 2nd time- and good for you for persisting!


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Yes, great riding buddies! All new trail horses and riders should get this kind of supportive and sympathetic introduction to the outdoors  Really great how she went through the "scary" stuff with so much more confidence the 2nd time- and good for you for persisting!


I give full credit to my trainer for suggesting we re-do the same trail after completing it once, until we hit the last bridge then turn back. 

If I could re-do it, I would have taken more time at that one puddle and just ask for one step at a time, then give Fly a moment to relax, before asking again. But being with two others, I felt a bit hurried (which is not a bad thing), but it's definitely not like if I was in the arena with no one else around, I could take as long as I want.

With this puddle, I should have gotten off much sooner to walk her over it. Even going through it the second time (from the same direction), she was never really comfortable with it since she went off to the side of it to go over. But it was still a noticeable improvement the second time. All the other puddles she was okay with, but it's just this one that she never was comfortable with.

I knew I could get her over that narrow bridge, that's why I kept wanting to try and not give up.


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## jaydee

Horses firmly believe that puddles are really openings into a dark nightmarish realm and if they step into them they'll be swallowed up never to be seen again!!!


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> Horses firmly believe that puddles are really openings into a dark nightmarish realm and if they step into them they'll be swallowed up never to be seen again!!!


Is this really true? 

I know that horses can't tell how deep they are. Though I will say that, that one puddle was the same depth as all the other puddles.


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## jaydee

I don't know about the 'other world thing' hoofpic!!! I don't think they have the capability to fantasize like that - its something that has been said in 'jest' many times to try to explain why horses (not all of them) seem to have a terrible distrust of puddles that they can't see the bottom of but will often be fairly willing to walk through clear water.
I had some real troubles with Lou and puddles when I first had her and even now she'd rather jump over them than walk through them. A few times I'm convinced that she actually thought going off the side of a steep drop was a safer option than the puddle.
Mind you - when I was about 12 I was cycling along a canal bank and having a lot of fun going through puddles and splashing water everywhere, that is until I got to the one that turned out to be a small subsidence hole about 2 foot deep!!!


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## Hoofpic

jaydee said:


> I don't know about the 'other world thing' hoofpic!!! I don't think they have the capability to fantasize like that - its something that has been said in 'jest' many times to try to explain why horses (not all of them) seem to have a terrible distrust of puddles that they can't see the bottom of but will often be fairly willing to walk through clear water.
> I had some real troubles with Lou and puddles when I first had her and even now she'd rather jump over them than walk through them. A few times I'm convinced that she actually thought going off the side of a steep drop was a safer option than the puddle.
> Mind you - when I was about 12 I was cycling along a canal bank and having a lot of fun going through puddles and splashing water everywhere, that is until I got to the one that turned out to be a small subsidence hole about 2 foot deep!!!


I think it's the reflections and if it's super bright with the sun bouncing off of it, it can be a factor.

Fly had no to very little issue going through a few other puddles just as deep and big as that one we had trouble on. They obviously have their reasons on why they don't like certain ones, we won't ever know.

But you are right, they have no issue with water, but mud is a different story.

I just made an intro for my future videos.


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## tinaev

That was a neat video of your trail ride. Did one of the ladies you were riding with have a camera mounted on her helmet too? It kind of looked like it at a couple spots. If so, that would be neat if she would share footage with you so you can see yourself on Fly and not just Fly's ears and trail.


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## Hoofpic

tinaev said:


> That was a neat video of your trail ride. Did one of the ladies you were riding with have a camera mounted on her helmet too? It kind of looked like it at a couple spots. If so, that would be neat if she would share footage with you so you can see yourself on Fly and not just Fly's ears and trail.


Yes one of the girls had a GoPro with her as well. I agree that it would be nice to share footage with them so that I can get footage of Fly and I and not just Fly's ears and mane :mrgreen:


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## Hoofpic

I got new pics of Fly's status on her healing leg. This was taken yesterday when catching her in the field (it's more light outside than in the arena so pics would show up better), and this was before I cleaned them.

They look really good for healing, though the deeper horizontal wound turned out deeper than I thought it would be. I've been putting SWAT on it everyday after cold hosing it to keep the bugs away. It's tough to get the SWAT stuff to actually stay inside the wound cause once Fly walks, it comes out a bit but I do what I can. I'm probably using more SWAT material than you need to be, but I'm just making sure that I have enough put on than not enough. I also put SWAT around the wound as well cause it sees to stay on her leg hair pretty good.










From what I see in the deeper wound, that dark red stuff near the bottom edge is what looks to be scab forming. When I rinsed it with cold water and sprayed water in there, it's hard and isn't budging.










The big question is, how long do you guys think before I can start riding her again?


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## greentree

Did you not take her on that trail ride? Why not keep riding her after THAT?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Did you not take her on that trail ride? Why not keep riding her after THAT?


I took her on the traol ride but I made an exception. It was close and I wasnt going to cause i wanted it to scab first but obviously because these are deeper than surface cuts, its taking longer.

Our arena is super dusty and I dont want to get sand and grit in the wounds.


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## greentree

OK, that makes PERFECT sense...NOT. She lives outside.....you think it does not get dirt in it?


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> OK, that makes PERFECT sense...NOT. She lives outside.....you think it does not get dirt in it?


Well right now it's pretty dry out so they aren't getting too dirty. So are you saying I can ride her? Maybe just hose the wounds after to get the arena sand out?


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## NavigatorsMom

As long as there is no swelling and she isn't lame, it should be fine to ride. Keep it clean but once it scabs over the scab is protecting her and you don't have to hose her off unless she's exceptionally dirty.


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## Hoofpic

NavigatorsMom said:


> As long as there is no swelling and she isn't lame, it should be fine to ride. Keep it clean but once it scabs over the scab is protecting her and you don't have to hose her off unless she's exceptionally dirty.


Thank you :grin:


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Recently bought a large mare (17 hands) and she found the ONE SNAG in a new horse trailer and tore a huge gash in her back right hip. Just skinned the hide back. Horrible looking injury, she kept popping the stitches the vet put in it and reopening the wound.

A cowboy friend of ours told us to keep it washed clean daily, use a clean spray bottle with warm tap water, spray until the wound is clean and actually bleeding again, and then put a liquid bandage on it, make sure it kept draining, didn't fester, etc. (there is a reason for cleaning it gently with nothing but the warm water until it puts out a little fresh blood. I thought it was a cruel thing, until I looked it up. It has to do with how horses heal, which is different than most mammals)

I've also recently bought a bay gelding who was beat up badly by his pasture mates. Awful deep wounds, some infected, others pretty rank, all were fairly old and scabby, starting to scar.

We got them clean, used the liquid bandage, and on the wounds that were scarring already, we rubbed the skin down with unrefined coconut oil and vitamin e oil. Sarge seemed to like massaging it into his skin btw.

The mare is almost 100% healed with very little scarring, but she was sore for a while and favored that leg, the gelding is also now healed, only one scar is visible, and its in the shape of a U on his front shoulder.

I say all this because as awful as some of these cuts can look, horses are amazing in how they heal. Keep the wound clean, keep it treated as directed by a vet or a knowledgeable horseman, and ask your horse hows she's feeling about it. They'll tell you. Sarge had no problem being ridden, Jackie the Mare? Was a mad, mad horse for a while. Sarge gets ridden, Jackie hasn't not yet. (That begins this weekend)


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## AtokaGhosthorse

You might consider rubbing the area around the wound (once you've cleaned it) with vitamin e oil and/or coconut oil. We use this on ours when a wound is healing and it seems to really help prevent any scarring.


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## Hoofpic

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> You might consider rubbing the area around the wound (once you've cleaned it) with vitamin e oil and/or coconut oil. We use this on ours when a wound is healing and it seems to really help prevent any scarring.


I agree, Vit E and Coco oil is great stuff. I have some of both at the barn but Im still using SWAT for the time being.


----------



## Hoofpic

Guys should I be worried about this? Yesterday her leg looked significantly better and better than anyday since the injury but today i noticed a couple teeny drops of blood seeping from the centre (dark red part, which has now turned hard). 

Because it was seeping a couple drops of blood I had to put some bendamine on, then SWAT on top


----------



## greentree

See the light pink flesh on the edges? That is NEW, healthy, healing flesh. See the little pinkish bubble on the left side? That is proud flesh. The dark on the rest of it is dried blood. If the proud flesh balloons up, it may need to be treated by the vet. Otherwise, it looks like it is healing well.


----------



## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> See the light pink flesh on the edges? That is NEW, healthy, healing flesh. See the little pinkish bubble on the left side? That is proud flesh. The dark on the rest of it is dried blood. If the proud flesh balloons up, it may need to be treated by the vet. Otherwise, it looks like it is healing well.


Thanks. Is the proud flesh normal on a horse? Is it only there temporarily?


----------



## Hoofpic

I love this


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## jaydee

MODERATING
All of the posts about Fly's hoof query have been moved to a thread of their own in Hoof Care


----------



## Hoofpic

OT but sorry I need to post this.

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been so crazy busy lately.

Anyways, thanks for the advice everyone. I will make some pointers and what's happened the past couple weeks with my boss.

1) I just can't stand how incredibly fake he is! Puts on a happy face when others are around just to "impress" them. He is so fake, it makes me gag. I can't even look him in the eye without feeling serious dislike for him. I feel nothing, absolutely nothing towards this guy, he is nothing but a joke of a person to me. My feelings towards him is 100% dead.

2) I am getting SO FED UP with his incompetance when it comes to paying me on time and now the new admin girl who has been working for him for 6 weeks now, is getting fed up!! 

When I first start working for this moron, our agreement was that I would get paid on the 1st and 16th of each month and that he would pay me by direct deposit by him going to the bank. He was great with keeping up with this for the first few pay periods but after that I've had to constantly remind and hound him every pay to pay me. 

Often he would say "I will deposit it tomorrow" or so and so day, only to not do it. Then he will rinse and repeat saying he has been busy and that he will take care of it the next day, then the next, and next and next and next and next and next. I've even gone as long as up to 10 days (on a couple occasions) before getting paid. I would keep emailing him, texting him, hounding him. His reason? "I've been so busy and haven't had time to run to the bank".

So after the new year I told him that I will be picking up cheques from his home for now on and it will make things easier for him because he just has to cut a cheque for me ans doesnt need to go anywhere. How hard is that right? 

Well it was fine for about 4 months, I would email him the day before saying I will be at his house at so and so time to confirm he will be home and he will reply back confirming it.

Well ever since we got this admin girl, it's been back to his normal behaviour and now he is doing the same with her. She is just as fed up as I am and don't forget she's only been working for him for 6 weeks. She sees it as me, it's a serious sign of disrespect. I work hard for him on the job and he can't even pay us on time?

So when the new girl started, she was put on different pay periods and pay dates as I. I was suppose to get paid last week but of course he was on vacation so he can't pay me because he is enjoying time off. So I waited a week and just this past Tuesday when he got back, I emailed and texted him "what's up with my pay"? He ignores my texts and emails, so I send him more emails and texts, no reply.

So I talked with the admin girl (cause she's been getting fed up as well about her pay), and she told me that my pay period and pay dates are now changed to the same dates as hers. And I was suppose to know this when no one even told me it?!!! SERIOUSLY?!

Not just that but apparently we were given a completely new timesheet to use for now on and timesheets are to go to the "director of communications" girl in the company and then she will send them to my bosses gf and she will process the pay by going to the bank. I didn't know any of this until I talked with the admin girl. It would be nice if someone could at least tell me this. I understand that everyone has been busy but cmon. I live busier lives than anyone else in the company and when stuff needs to be taken care of and done, I get it done because I'm not an incompetant mule when it comes to responsibility and time management.

So on Wednesday we had a group meeting scheduled in the day so I figured i would ask him then and clear up details. I ask him if my pay period has changed.

What does he say? "Oh, my gf is going to be taking care of your guys pay for now on".....I said that is fine, "does she have my banking info?" HIs reply "no, but I will send it to her. One of these days I will sit down with her and go over the details" WHAT?! Details? It takes what, all of 3 mins? How hard is it to send banking details?!

No mention from him on the new timesheet, like he assumed I automatically knew. He did confirm that he would like to have me on the same pay schedule as the admin girl. I said that is fine, so I readjusted my timesheet hours accordingly and recording the rest by writting it down in my journal.

He said that everything pay related will be going through the "director of communications" and then when I talked to her literally 5mins later that same day, she said "Okay we need to talk about [boss] about this, we will go over it in the next week". I was super upset when I heard this. I ain't cool with something like this being held off any longer, let alone a week. I understand that it's not you getting paid, but I sure ain't going to take this BS.

So later that hour I sent my banking account details myself right to his gf and haven't received a reply for her since, not even a confirmation saying that she received my details.

Apparently according to my boss (I overheard him saying this to someone else during our meeting on Wed), his GF is really upset at me because when I went with him to buy his new $2500 Surfacebook, we didn't buy it from Costco. We bought it from Best Buy. So she is incredibly upset at me for allowing this to happen. Uhhh. My bosses old laptop broke only after a year and she wasn't happy about it. Now that the boss bought a $2500 laptop, she wanted to buy it from Costco because of the return policy. The boss needed the laptop that same day, we both agreed on Best Buy. Costco.ca only sells it online and it would have been a few days shipping. What was I suppose to do? My boss (at the very last minute of course, like always), asked me where he could buy a Surface book the following morning and for me to check places with stock so we can meet in the morning to buy it. Best Buy was the only local place to have stock, Costco didn't have it. How is this my fault? Maybe you should "sit down" with your incompentant rat of a bf and tell him not to wait for stuff so last minute but because he suffers from short and long term memory loss and literally can never remember anything past 10 seconds ago, it's not my issue to deal with. For such an intelligent smart guy, he is miraculously so incredibly braindead stupid as well.

I could tell that she was upset at me because yesterday during our Shareholders meeting, (I only had to go for a couple hours to take photos), when I got there, I said hi to his GF and she completely ignored me and didn't even say hi. Again, later on I tried saying hi to her again and then she just gave me a dirty look and grumbled at me. LOL I'm like "is this for real or am I dreaming?" Like seriously. Seriously.

Then here's the real sleeper. Later that hour, she literally gave me lip service and told me to get out and leave. I was told by my boss to be there for 2 hours from so and so time to take photos and a specific variety. But she said "I find you distracting taking photos, get out" while in an incredibly rude tone of voice. So I left. Whatever. You don't pay me enough to deal with this nonsense. 

You know, the day my boss flat out and blantantly accused me of being a thief going through his fridge was a serious red flag and has gone down as one of the dark memories I have of him, I will always have this. And yesterday, with his GF acting like that towards me is another serious red flag and dark days. I always liked her and thought very highly of her as a person. Not anymore. I will no longer see her in the same way. I have dead feelings towards her. I am a very forgiving person, but I'm sorry yesterday was complete BS. There is no other way to put it. 

Anyways, back to the pay. So now that I know my pay periods have changed to the same schedule as the admin girl, I know when to submit my timesheet and expect my pay. So according to the new schedule, today should have been my pay for the May 15-28 pay period. Guess what. Neither the admin girl or I got anything put into our bank accounts. 

So (because I was busy and tied up all day), the admin girl got in touch with the "director of communucations" girl and said that we didnt get paid. She said "Oh,[boss] is now taking care of your pay for now". REALLY?! He has already said a billion times that he doesn't want to do it because he sucks at it and he's too busy. So what is the deal?
So the director of communications then says that the boss says he will make a deposit into our accounts this weekend as he is far too busy today.

You see, that's ALWAYS this morons excuse each and every time.

"I'm too busy"
"I've got too much stuff going on"
"I haven't had time"
"I got 1000 things going on right now"

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

So the admin girl and I just talked and (I as well), she is SUPER ANNOYED! She is not willing to put up with this and get stressed over getting paid each and every pay cheque.

You know, the last pay was a week late and I literally had to hound the boss 4 or 5 times to give me my money. I was THIS CLOSE, THIS CLOSE to telling him that I will not be working anymore until I get paid. I didn't do it because he paid me just as I was literally going to do it.

Now, I am very tempted again to do the same thing. Just like the admin girl, I have had it! I have bills to pay! Just because he and everyone else in the company are multi-millionaires and have 8 figure account balances, it doesn't mean I am!

The admin girl and I just sent him over an email and text asking if he is going to deposit our cheques into our accounts this weekend or if we should pick up our cheques on Monday. No reply yet. Sure you ask, why not call? He won't answer and he won't call back because "he's too busy". Ya, too busy to pay your staff?

I don't care what you got going on, paying your staff should be at the utter top of the list to do on time and every time without needing to EVER, EVER be reminded or hounded on to do.

Now, I know you guys will ask, why doesn't he use a payroll system or hire a bookkeeper. Well because he only has 4 people to pay and says our team isn't large enough. He says that we will use a payroll system down the road with a payroll person but right now, with 4 people it's not worth it. So that is why he said his gf will take care of payroll and do the deposits for all of us by going to the bank herself on the pay dates.

Now have your thoughts on this moron of boss changed? What would you think of him now? What would you do if you were me?

Would you tell him that you will not work anymore until you get paid? Or is it seen as too much of a threat?


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## waresbear

Tell him you can't carry him anymore, you need to be paid in a timely fashion, IF, you can afford to walk if push comes to shove. I have done this with my boss, it worked, had him take time out of his vacation to transfer money into my account. You don't have to like the guy, admire the guy, or anything else personal, you just have to do your job and get paid. It's why it's called WORK, not FUN. By the way, I am WORK right now, not FUN, but the work has it's enjoyable moments.


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## HombresArablegacy

Perhaps you should find a line of work doing what you love, and being your own boss. Photography/ videography of horses is right up your alley. If you're really good at it, it can be quite lucrative.

Equine Careers and Education - The Horse Forum


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## egrogan

In the US not delivering a paycheck on time would be illegal. I don't know if you have a contract, but like others said, if you're willing to risk ultimately being fired you could consult an employment lawyer and/or make a formal complaint with the local employment authorities. If you're doing this under the table you probably have to deal or leave.


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## greentree

Print THIS and leave it for your boss. The bill for my research is in the mail!! You're welcome.

https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/paywage.php


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## Hoofpic

waresbear said:


> Tell him you can't carry him anymore, you need to be paid in a timely fashion, IF, you can afford to walk if push comes to shove. I have done this with my boss, it worked, had him take time out of his vacation to transfer money into my account. You don't have to like the guy, admire the guy, or anything else personal, you just have to do your job and get paid. It's why it's called WORK, not FUN. By the way, I am WORK right now, not FUN, but the work has it's enjoyable moments.


After my last post and yesterday, this is what I came up with. I am going to text the idiot first thing (rise and shine) Monday morning confirming that he will be home at a specific time Monday night for me to pick up my cheque. 

He may or may not propose that he will direct deposit our money instead and if so, I will flat out tell him "No thank you, I will not accept direct deposits anymore. Our agreement is that I pick up my cheques". I will not make anymore exceptions, period! Because he severely fails every single time!

And if he still insists that he will direct deposit, I will tell him that I won't be working until I get paid. I will say "Okay fine, then I will not be working until I get paid...you have your choice, take it or leave it".

*Now, my question is, word for word, is that too blunt or risky to say any boss in general?* "I will not be working..." is not a common or usual thing to say to any boss and "take it or leave it" obviously shows that I am calling the shots here. So that's why I want to make absolutely sure that this is, (word for word), not a dumb thing to say. 

If this doesn't light a fire into his head, then I don't know what will. If he wants his stuff done, then he pays me and pays me now, otherwise I am "out of the office".

I mean I could go on with him and say how I'm fed up with all this nonsense when it comes to something so basic like me getting paid and paid on time but like I said, I only speak to him when needed and say as few words as possible with this pathetic disgrace of a full grown adult. Thoughts?

I've adjusted my timesheet to the "new" pay period now, I've sent my timesheet to the "director of communications". What the hell more do you want me to do?! I've done my end of the agreement, now it's time to do yours.

I am not falling for his crap anymore. According to the admin girl, she said that after talking with the director girl, that she said that the boss told her that he doesn't have time to pay us today (which was yesterday). REALLY?!!! How do you not have time to pay your staff? YOU MAKE TIME! Obviously him paying his staff is not all that important to him, so that is why I insist that I come up with my own rule. I get paid on time and if I don't, then I am "out of the office". This means, I am not available for contact.

You saw me and were in the same room as I was yesterday for how many hours during the day? You didn't have 90 seconds to write a cheque for me and just bring it yesterday? But yet, when the day was done at 3pm, you had time to go pick up your GF so you two could go down the street for beers. I'm sure I wasn't suppose to hear this and when I did, I was so annoyed. This is what really annoys me off. This idiot is just so unbelievably braindead at times that he really needs to think before he says some things and take notice of who is around. 

I know that he thinks I'm stupid so that's why he says stuff like this when I am around, thinking that I won't hear it, but I do. He just doesn't know this.

So you don't have time to cut a cheque to pay your staff but you have time for beers. *sigh* If that isn't a serious middle finger to you from the boss then I don't know what is. It may have not been intentional, but it's still a serious slap in the face regardless.


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## Hoofpic

HombresArablegacy said:


> Perhaps you should find a line of work doing what you love, and being your own boss. Photography/ videography of horses is right up your alley. If you're really good at it, it can be quite lucrative.
> 
> Equine Careers and Education - The Horse Forum


I would love to but it's just not feasible right now, the economy here is still in such a miserable down turn that it's literally just about impossible to find work due to nothing being available. So that of course affects everything else, and even though I am still open to doing freelance jobs on the side, it's not near enough to be full time.

This is why I'm still with this idiot. I'm just toughing it out for the time being until I find something else and its tough with the economy being as bad as it is.


----------



## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> In the US not delivering a paycheck on time would be illegal. I don't know if you have a contract, but like others said, if you're willing to risk ultimately being fired you could consult an employment lawyer and/or make a formal complaint with the local employment authorities. If you're doing this under the table you probably have to deal or leave.


Unfortunately with how miserable the economy is here right now, I don't have that luxury. I can't quit until I find something new.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Print THIS and leave it for your boss. The bill for my research is in the mail!! You're welcome.
> 
> https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/paywage.php


Thanks but I am in Alberta. I could give it to him, but it most likely won't do anything. He will ignore it, toss it aside and forget about it.

IMO, the only way to put pressure on him is to tell him that for now on, I will not be working until I get paid. If I don't collect my pay on pay day, then I stop working, simple as that. I will not be getting any work done, I will not be replying to any emails, phone calls, nothing. Once he realizes that I will stop working if I go unpaid, he knows he is screwed because of just how much I do. I'm sick and tired of this garbage. I am always hustling and busting my *** for this idiot, I go well out of my way for his incompetence and he greatly under appreciates me and takes me for granted that it makes me sick. I am insulted. He's the type who will never give me a raise or vacation, I know him well enough by now. 

Telling him that I am no longer working until I get paid, I don't like to do this but I feel I have no other choice. I mean, really, he needs a serious wake up call and hopefully something like this can knock some sense into him.


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## Hoofpic

And you see I'm really forgiving because come Monday, technically I will be giving him two chances for me to not threaten to stop working without pay.

First, I will tell him that I will pick up my cheque Monday at so and so time and confirm that he will be home. 

If he confirms and is good with the time, and isn't full of any other excuses, then I don't threaten. If he had two brain cells he would take this route. Knowing him and how stupid he is, I will most likely have to threaten at some point down the road, but if he agrees to me picking up my cheque Monday, then the threat will be postponed for the time being. 

But if he tries to insist on him direct depositing, then I will tell him that I will no longer accept direct deposit, cheque only and no exceptions.

Here is his second chance, if he was smart, he would agree with me but if he still insists, then I will threaten to stop working until I get paid. 

So lets see which route this moron wants to take. If he really makes me threaten to stop working, it will make him feel like an absolute idiot. I've gone well out of my way to try to make things as easy for him. But yet he can't make decisions on stuff. You don't want to do payroll, I get it, yes you sure do suck at it because of the pathetic mule that you are, so then if your GF really did offer to take control of it (like you said she does), why isn't she? If she doesn't want to do it, then find someone in the company who will!

Literally 3 days ago, he said to my face that his GF is taking over payroll and timesheets will be handled and sent to the director girl. Now two days later, his GF is no longer doing payroll and timesheets still go to the director but he is processing pay. Who does he tell this to? The director. Why not me or everyone else? Why are we having to dig holes in the mud just to get answers? His ability to communicate is absolutely abysmal all because he suffers from such pathetic memory loss. This moron can't make up his mind on anything it seems, he is constantly indecisive, changes things up and doesn't even tell me until after I fish for it.

But really, us coming to your house "after hours" in our own time and going out of our ways to make it easy for you, how can he not comprehend? Is opening the door and taking 90 seconds to write a cheque (without even having to leave your house), too much to ask for? 

I know he needs a babysitter to even just process his thoughts, and I sure ain't your babysitter.


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## greentree

SO>>>>look up the one for ALBERTA!! You do not think CALMLY reminding him of the LAW, and that you KNOW the law is better than giving him some ultimatum, and if he does not accept that, then YOU have NO job???

Given that they have walk-in therapy clinics there....perhaps they have walk-in law clinics, too.


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## jaydee

MODERATING
Two posts have been removed from this Journal as requested by the Journal owner in line with Journal Rules


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## egrogan

greentree said:


> SO>>>>look up the one for ALBERTA!! You do not think CALMLY reminding him of the LAW, and that you KNOW the law is better than giving him some ultimatum, and if he does not accept that, then YOU have NO job???
> 
> Given that they have walk-in therapy clinics there....perhaps they have walk-in law clinics, too.


I can't agree with this enough. Seriously- not paying employees on a pre-agreed date is not legal. What does your contract say about pay periods? Take your contract and your copious communications about missed pay dates to an employment lawyer.

Maybe it's time to consider moving to a city with a better labor market?


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## greentree

IMO, if someone said, "I will not work until you pay me...", that gives me license to say.."See YA!!" If the economy is SO bad, how does HE make all this money? He will not feel like an idiot, I bet, because lots of people are looking for jobs. Perhaps he can even get an employee to whom he can pay less, and get more!


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## waresbear

The labor laws are there, sure, however try and get employees who work at these government offices to do anything is like pulling teeth. I have had my employer bounce checks on me, BACK TO BACK, the whole staff and all of us phoned the labor office. They said "Oh just wait, I am sure you will get paid" to each one of our calls. Eventually we did get paid, however some employees had payments bounce, late fees, NSF fees because of one month with no money. No help from the labor board office, none whatsoever.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> IMO, if someone said, "I will not work until you pay me...", that gives me license to say.."See YA!!"


Well there is no other way to put it from what I can think of. How is he going to expect me to continue working if he can't even pay me on time and without getting hounded over and over and over again?

The message I need to send across is "I will not work until I get paid" and this will be the rule for now on moving forward.

But I just need to word it differently so it's not so threatening. I am in the process of trying to think of a way. 

I did as I said and emailed and texted him that I would like to swing by tonight to grab my cheque. No reply yet.

Just talked with the admin girl and she's upset as well. She said that she will do the same, stop working until she gets paid but she wants me to send the email out at the boss and by the end of today (if I haven't heard back from him yet), to tell him and the other staff.



> If the economy is SO bad, how does HE make all this money? He will not feel like an idiot, I bet, because lots of people are looking for jobs. Perhaps he can even get an employee to whom he can pay less, and get more!


Well he has no income right now (at least for the business division that I work for him in), just the income from his GF because my boss is self employed and his GF works for a large firm and some projects on the side from his other company/service.


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## updownrider

What is your plan if you do stop working? Will you go to work and sit at your desk or will you stay home? Do you expect to be paid while you are protesting?

I hope you heard from your boss today, he paid you, and my questions do not matter and are not something you need to think about.


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## tinyliny

my husband is self employed. Twice he has been stiffed by clients. we lost something like $15,000. sucks, but pursueing it legally will cost even more. people who stiff the working class are very low life schmucks.


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Well there is no other way to put it from what I can think of. How is he going to expect me to continue working if he can't even pay me on time and without getting hounded over and over and over again?
> 
> The message I need to send across is "I will not work until I get paid" and this will be the rule for now on moving forward.
> 
> But I just need to word it differently so it's not so threatening. I am in the process of trying to think of a way.
> 
> I did as I said and emailed and texted him that I would like to swing by tonight to grab my cheque. No reply yet.
> 
> Just talked with the admin girl and she's upset as well. She said that she will do the same, stop working until she gets paid but she wants me to send the email out at the boss and by the end of today (if I haven't heard back from him yet), to tell him and the other staff.
> 
> 
> 
> Well he has no income right now (at least for the business division that I work for him in), just the income from his GF because my boss is self employed and his GF works for a large firm and some projects on the side from his other company/service.


How is he expected to pay you if he has no income? That is one of the pitfalls of being in a Non-income producing job.


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## Hoofpic

updownrider said:


> What is your plan if you do stop working? Will you go to work and sit at your desk or will you stay home? Do you expect to be paid while you are protesting?
> 
> I hope you heard from your boss today, he paid you, and my questions do not matter and are not something you need to think about.


I got paid today, he texted me back at 4pm today saying i could come by at night to get my cheque. He saved me again from threatening to stop working, which is good!


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## Hoofpic

OT question but today I happened to flip Fly's saddle pad upside down and noticed quite a bit more hairs stuck to the pad at the area where it lands on her withers than any other part of the saddle (partificularly the right side of the wither). Should this be a concern?


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> I got paid today, he texted me back at 4pm today saying i could come by at night to get my cheque. He saved me again from threatening to stop working, which is good!


I would supply him with a printout of the labor laws about payment of employees anyway, and if you can print it on a lawyer's letterhead, it will be MUCH more effective.


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## carshon

When you say noticeable amount of hair what does that mean? If it is more to one side that usually means the saddle or rider is imbalanced or that Fly is more built up on one side than the other.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I would supply him with a printout of the labor laws about payment of employees anyway, and if you can print it on a lawyer's letterhead, it will be MUCH more effective.


Okay thanks. 

So I'm guessing (if the time calls for it), you don't believe I threatening to stop working until I get paid is a wise idea? Is it too risky and out of line?


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> When you say noticeable amount of hair what does that mean? If it is more to one side that usually means the saddle or rider is imbalanced or that Fly is more built up on one side than the other.


When I flipped the pad upside down, there was more hairs stuck to the pad in the area where it lays on Fly's withers (more on the right wither than left). 

Fly is more built up on the right side than the left. 

I would still like to get her left side more built up, I've been doing 20m circles on her and my routine is that I double the amount of circles on her weak side. So her weak side (when bending) is going to her left and fortunately this is my strongest side in terms of form and balance. For instance yesterday, I did 10 circles going to her right and about 20 to her left.

I did them again outside yesterday in the outdoor arena (which isn't near as easy to ride in compared to our indoor simply due to the a lot less consistent footing). I try to ride in the outdoor arena as much as I can because I would think that if you put yourself to get/ride better in a more difficult environment and surrounding, that when you go back to the easier setting (indoor arena), you will be a lot further ahead as opposed to always riding in the easier environment, then getting adjusted to the harder one after some time.

Is there any truth to this?


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## greentree

Hoofpic said:


> Okay thanks.
> 
> So I'm guessing (if the time calls for it), you don't believe I threatening to stop working until I get paid is a wise idea? Is it too risky and out of line?


Good guess. No, never issue an ultimatum to ANYONE unless you are prepared to accept the consequences! In your case, that would mean you ALREADY had another company prepared to hire you. Of course, if I were in your shoes, I would have been looking for another job WAY back after the first slow check.....but that is because I think there is a reason for the slow checks, besides he "forgets", and I would not want to be in the position of having my paycheck bounce.....


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## weeedlady

I think it's time that you start looking for another job. 

I don't believe his problem is time or lack of organizational skills. He's having cash flow issues and doesn't have the money to pay you on time. I'd be willing to bet that's what's going on.


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> Good guess. No, never issue an ultimatum to ANYONE unless you are prepared to accept the consequences! In your case, that would mean you ALREADY had another company prepared to hire you. Of course, if I were in your shoes, I would have been looking for another job WAY back after the first slow check.....but that is because I think there is a reason for the slow checks, besides he "forgets", and I would not want to be in the position of having my paycheck bounce.....


Sorry, maybe it's just me, but I still am failing to see why it's a bad idea to threaten your boss to stop working if you are not paid on time.


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## weeedlady

^^^^You have to do more than threaten him. You have to follow through with your threat- just like we do with the horses and kids. So if you are not paid on time, then you don't work, then you aren't earning any additional money.

Additionally, your boss is very likely to just say fine. I will find someone else.

I'll say it again-it's time for you to find another job.


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## Rainaisabelle

Hoofpic said:


> greentree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good guess. No, never issue an ultimatum to ANYONE unless you are prepared to accept the consequences! In your case, that would mean you ALREADY had another company prepared to hire you. Of course, if I were in your shoes, I would have been looking for another job WAY back after the first slow check.....but that is because I think there is a reason for the slow checks, besides he "forgets", and I would not want to be in the position of having my paycheck bounce.....
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, maybe it's just me, but I still am failing to see why it's a bad idea to threaten your boss to stop working if you are not paid on time.
Click to expand...

... it's really not hard to see why. Unless you can afford to be laid off then I would approach threatening your boss very carefully. So unless you have a new job lined up walk the fine line very carefully


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## Hoofpic

I will respond to the replies in the morning.

On another note, I think these ones are keepers.


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## Hoofpic

weedlady said:


> I think it's time that you start looking for another job.
> 
> I don't believe his problem is time or lack of organizational skills. He's having cash flow issues and doesn't have the money to pay you on time. I'd be willing to bet that's what's going on.


He has the money, he's just irresponsible as a person. We, the team are having a big meeting next week and payroll is one of the things that we will clear up and go over.


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## Hoofpic

Rainaisabelle said:


> ... it's really not hard to see why. Unless you can afford to be laid off then I would approach threatening your boss very carefully. So unless you have a new job lined up walk the fine line very carefully





weedlady said:


> ^^^^You have to do more than threaten him. You have to follow through with your threat- just like we do with the horses and kids. So if you are not paid on time, then you don't work, then you aren't earning any additional money.
> 
> Additionally, your boss is very likely to just say fine. I will find someone else.
> 
> I'll say it again-it's time for you to find another job.


True I agree that I have to walk the fine line very carefully. But for the time being, until I find something else, I just don't know how to put pressure on him to pay me on time other to threaten to stop working.

However, the GOOD NEWS is that everyone else in the team is wonderful (I get along with really well), and we are having a meeting next week and one of the topics for us to go over and clear up is payroll. The director of communications says she would like to get this taken care of as well ASAP.


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## Hoofpic

This is a herd of about 25 horses about 2 or 3km from my barn. I just found it today and ended up taking some photos from sitting in my car. I wanted to get closer to get more options but didn't want to get in trouble.

I also took a video of these guys as well (should be ready by the morning).


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## GMA100

Your pictures are the best! Looks like spring has sprung in Canada!


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## Greenmeadows

I wish I could get pictures like that! They look awesome, as usual! :grin:


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## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> Your pictures are the best! Looks like spring has sprung in Canada!


Thanks. I have decided that I am going to persue a side career in equine photography. But I need to build my portfolio first. :smile:


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## falling

New to your journal but I just wanted to pop in and say that's a great idea! You take wonderful photos. A good idea to get you started might be to go on facebook and offer cheap photo shoots for horse owners to get your name out, and yes, build up your portfolio. 

I also agree with everyone else that you should at least be looking for a new job. If things work out at your current job and you begin to get paid on time, great, but it would be a good idea to have a back up if nothing improves (or gets worse!).


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## Hoofpic

falling said:


> New to your journal but I just wanted to pop in and say that's a great idea! You take wonderful photos. A good idea to get you started might be to go on facebook and offer cheap photo shoots for horse owners to get your name out, and yes, build up your portfolio.
> 
> I also agree with everyone else that you should at least be looking for a new job. If things work out at your current job and you begin to get paid on time, great, but it would be a good idea to have a back up if nothing improves (or gets worse!).


Thanks, some of my most recent photos from this past Friday are some of my best. I had to be super quick taking them due to me sitting in my car so I didn't want to get anyone's attention for being suspicious. 

I am looking for new work forsure but equine photography would be great to start right now as a side job.


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## Hoofpic

Can someone give me their input on putting Pine Tar on hooves when dry?


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## egrogan

Don't, it won't do anything. If you're worried about hoof health look at your feeding and trimming program.


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## carshon

agree with @egrogan the outside of the horses hoof is a lot like your fingernail - it is not living material - all of the topic aids just make them look shiny and make the owner feel better. The inside and sole of the hoof are softer and more "live" tissue. 

Feet get dry - feed a really good feed with proper vitamins and minerals and Fly's hooves will be fine. Chipping and cracks are due to farrier issues and not dryness from the environment.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> Don't, it won't do anything. If you're worried about hoof health look at your feeding and trimming program.


Oh okay, I've just heard very good things about the qualities of Pine tar since it is natural and doesn't contain alcohol like all the other hoof conditioners. I knew a boarder at the old barn who used and swore by it as well.

My friend was harping me the other day demanding I put stuff on Fly's hooves cause the BO said that we should all be putting stuff on the hooves everyday now because it's so dry at the barn. It's not as dry as it was 2 weeks ago (cause we've gotten rain), but it's still very dry.

So then how do you prevent hooves from cracking and chipping?

My friends put on massive coats of hoof conditioners on their horses hooves everyday.


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> agree with @egrogan the outside of the horses hoof is a lot like your fingernail - it is not living material - all of the topic aids just make them look shiny and make the owner feel better. The inside and sole of the hoof are softer and more "live" tissue.
> 
> Feet get dry - feed a really good feed with proper vitamins and minerals and Fly's hooves will be fine. Chipping and cracks are due to farrier issues and not dryness from the environment.


But I've tried getting Fly on vitamins and minerals and she will not eat them unless it's mixed with grain and I just can't be feeding her grain at all. I still have a 99% brand new tub of pelleted vitamins and minerals at the barn.


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## egrogan

^^Soak a small handful of alfalfa pellets and mix them in to that.


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## Hoofpic

egrogan said:


> ^^Soak a small handful of alfalfa pellets and mix them in to that.


Well a couple things

1) She's not overly crazy about hay cubes, soaked or unsoaked. She will eat them but other times she won't. 
2) If I have to feed her vitamins and minerals then that would mean that I will be feeding her stuff every time I see her and this was what don't what, cause (regardless of the food being fed from a bucket), she will get nippy and start expecting treats and food everytime she sees me.


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## carshon

Feed her when you leave then - or place a bucket outside and then walk her to it and then away from it when she is done. Then she does not associate you with the bucket. 

The chipping etc on her hooves is a farrier issue and not a dryness issue. That is the hoof wall breaking away because of force in that long area. 

You can also purchase a ration balancer that is more palatable or try putting a flavored oil on the minerals etc.


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## Hoofpic

carshon said:


> Feed her when you leave then - or place a bucket outside and then walk her to it and then away from it when she is done. Then she does not associate you with the bucket.


I can't because she's out in the field. I know, it sucks. The only way I can feed her is when I am with her, either outside or in the barn when she is tied.



> The chipping etc on her hooves is a farrier issue and not a dryness issue. That is the hoof wall breaking away because of force in that long area.


Oh okay thanks. A couple of my friends horse's hooves have some chips too.

So pine tar will soften horses hooves just like hoof oils? I'm not sure why so many farriers believe in hoof oils.



> You can also purchase a ration balancer that is more palatable or try putting a flavored oil on the minerals etc.


Can't get ration balancers here, I've spent quite a bit of time searching almost 2 years ago.


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

@Hoofpic- I was just wondering if you've seen the thread the Mods made for you in the hoof care section?


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## Hoofpic

3rdTimestheCharm said:


> @Hoofpic- I was just wondering if you've seen the thread the Mods made for you in the hoof care section?


No I completely forgot about it sorry. I've been so busy, I forgot about it. I will read it.


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## Hoofpic

Wildies from today!!!!!

Love these foals to death!


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## Hoofpic




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## GMA100

Your photos are so stunning! I love Wildies! Are these horses truly wild? 
How long have you been doing photography?


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## 3rdTimestheCharm

Hoofpic said:


> No I completely forgot about it sorry. I've been so busy, I forgot about it. I will read it.


No worries =) Just wanted to make sure that you were aware of the thread.


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## Hoofpic

GMA100 said:


> Your photos are so stunning! I love Wildies! Are these horses truly wild?
> How long have you been doing photography?


Thank you and yes these horses are 100% wild.

I've been doing photography for 3.5 years now so I still very much consider myself a beginner. I did wedding photography for 2 years about 10 years ago before stopping. Then I went 10 years without even touching or owning a camera. I got back into photography in 2015 after I got my horsey. So I've been taking photos of horses for just 1.5 years but that's very light usage as I still have yet to fully get involved with it on a more consistent basis.

For instance yesterday was really only the 3rd or 4th time that I took photos of horses (including my own) all of this year, so I can often go weeks, if not months without using the camera (at least for personal usage), but now that I have decided to pursue it as a side career, I will be picking up that camera lot more often. I want to get better and the best way to get better quicker is by using the camera more.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

I like that very last picture. Talk about camo'd out.


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## Hoofpic

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I like that very last picture. Talk about camo'd out.


Thanks :smile:


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## Hoofpic

Yes this is me, I tried ropping tonight! It's hard and I kept it short cause I didn't want to embarass myself anymore. I tried twice and failed lol. I don't like people watching me.


























































What a beautiful mare!!!


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## Hoofpic

Can someone tell how old Fly is in this pic?

A yearling?


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## greentree

I thought you might find this article enlightening....

Hoof Dressings - David W. Ramey, DVM


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## Hoofpic

greentree said:


> I thought you might find this article enlightening....
> 
> Hoof Dressings - David W. Ramey, DVM


Thank you, reading now.


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