# Sea World/ZOO's and animal captivity debate



## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Hey everyone,
The unfortunate incident that happened at Sea World brought up this interesting conversation here at work. From the letter that was brought up on the web, it looks like all whales held captive in Iceland and imported will never be able to be brought back to Iceland waters. That leaves them to stay captive the remainder of their life. 

Now looking at Tilikum's situation or other captive animals that were once in the wild, would you be willing to go to places such as Zoo's or other facilities? This thread is not a matter of discussing if zoo keeping or animal captivity is right or wrong. 

With recent events, does your view or has your thinking changed on visiting such parks?


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Yes, mine has. As much as they say that capturing these animals and placing them behind glass will save the species and research is being done, at what cost to the animals? 

As in the case of Tillikum, he can never be returned to him home and he has obviously been driven to the point of aggressive behavior by his hears in captivity. This is an animal that is used to migrating thousands of miles a year over its entire life time and has been scooped up into a tiny chlorinated pool to perform for people, and now that he has been driven to being a dangerous animal and killing 3 people, he no option but to be killed? What a sad life, what a terrible end to a terrible life.

What is more, even if the whales are bred in captivity, they can never be placed back in the wild, not like the eagles that were mentioned in the other thread, being born in captivity places them with an automatic handicap, so where as yes the overall numbers increase(and BTW, WHERE DO THEY ALL GO???) they have to live their lives behind glass, and will never get to experience life in the ocean where they belong.

It is just like circus elephants, huge highly intelligent creatures used to a life of roaming and foraging, highly instinct driven and forced to live their lives in shackles and be poked with bull hooks, what a life. These animals get little to no actual turn out, they are chained by their feet to long chains in rows in large barn type structures and only allowed tiny spaces to move around in, they are beaten into submission and forced to perform a few minutes every night, then placed back in chains. They develop stereotypies just like over stalled horses, head bobbing and weaving, shifting and rocking off their feet. And then out of the blue they snap and kill 15 people and are shot or euthanize, and why? Because they are wild animals acting as wild animals do, but they are expected to act domesticated all for human pride , entertainment and profit(just like the Orcas).


Sure we people see these animals in the air condition and cozy little enclosures at zoos and parks and we think "gee what a life, I with I could lay around all day and do nothing" but what we do not realize is that these are living breathing hormone and instinct driven wild animals. I guarantee you you give a lion a choice between sitting in a lion pit at the Saint Louis zoo its entire life or fighting for its life on the Savannah, he will choose the latter. Wild animals do not think the way that we do, they think like animals. They enjoy their freedom and hunting and killing and breeding and fighting, it is what they are made to do. They are not made to sit behind glass every day.

Trainers and keepers work every day to try to keep these animals stimulated, but if you notice, it never seems to last too long. The animals grow bored and restless and resort to aggressive or animal behavior to entertain and satisfy their hunting and foraging needs.

At the STL zoo it is a fact that you have a better chance of being struck by lightening than seeing one of the lions actually move more than a few feet around its exhibit, why? They are kept in a pit with high concrete walls, they can not see the horizon, all they see is cold concrete and a circle of sky, the wild spirit has been forced out of them by endless days of monotony and boredom.


What humans see as cushy easy life, wild animals see as a prison with no hope of ever going home to hunt on the Savannah or dive deep into the oceans ever again.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

No!

Like Kevin pointed out in the other thread. Zoos and animal parks give people the ability to see animals they would never see otherwise. People work harder to protect and simply learn about things that they have experience with. Even this trainer that was killed stated at one point that a visit to a park like Sea World was what made her want to get into whales.

Zoos and animal parks do so much good for the animals in the long run. The knowledge gained about breeding and health concerns and such is priceless for the long term survival of many species. The tickets to get in pay for that. 



I have met one of the elephant handlers that works at the zoo closest to me. Those elephants are no less important to her than her dog at home is. They are her life.



Honeysuga said:


> What humans see as cushy easy life, wild animals see as a prison with no hope of ever going home to hunt on the Savannah or dive deep into the oceans ever again.


They are animals, not humans. They do not think like you do.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Honeysuga, so much misinformation in one little post.

Zoos, zoological parks, and ocean parks all let people see animals that they never would normally. If people are invested emotionally, they'll want to make sure the animals are treated correctly in captivity as _well_ as in the wild. 

Research of wild animals has to be_ funded,_ and if the public isn't on board with that the research will never happen. Parks like these help fund that research.

Plus, when was the last time you went to a zoo/zoological park? With the study of wild animals in captivity, many things have changed over the years.

The animals are being put into more natural habitats than the old concrete places they used to be housed. They're also given mental stimulation, and are required to figure out how to get their food using their natural agilities, instincts and intelligence. The food is no longer just thrown to them.

More and more zoos/parks are going to the above mentioned things, and the old style ones are dying out. What you said USED to be the norm. It no longer IS the norm.

Plus, where did you get all these ideas about elephants being abused, misused, and 'held by chains'? That old court case was thrown out because the accusations were found to be FALSE, and the 'expert witness' admitted to lying under oath.

Instead of getting all your info from animal rights propaganda, do some _real_ research into these issues.


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

^^ agree 100%
Also, if it wasn't for zoos and captive breeding some species would be totally out of the picture.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I was not once giving misinformation. I was not speaking of zoo elephants, if you read my post I was talking about circus elephants, I have seen them chained at every single circus I have ever been too. I have also seen the bloody wounds behind their ears and shoulders form the bull hooks. Dont assume I am going just by what others have said, I am not I am going by what I have seen personally and making a hypothesis based on that information, there is no such thing as a wrong hypothesis.

I have been to the STL zoo recently too, the lions are still in the pit. Though I must say, I really have little qualm with the zoos, they are improving just as you said, I have no problem with animals kept in an enriching an healthy environment. It is when those animals are exploited for profit that bothers me. 

Why can't they just place Tillikum in a zoo exhibit with a few other whales as a breeding pod and let them be whales? Plenty of stimulation and people can still see and experience them... Because it doesn't rake in the big bucks. So you even know how much of the money raised by the shows goes to actual whale research? 

The public can experience whales without them used as a theme park attraction, the internet is an amazing thing. Not to mention the ever popular whale and sea life excursions available at most coastal vacation areas.

Just because you disagree with me, do not assume that I am wrong, I am not wrong on a single thing. The animals themselves are proof, how they lash out, how they dull after time in the exhibits, how they develop the stereotypies, it is obvious they are unhappy. So you are saying it is good to sacrifice the lives of the animals for the benefit of people? So we can learn about them to save them from us? Sounds kind of bassackwards to me.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Honeysuga said:


> Just because you disagree with me, do not assume that I am wrong, I am not wrong on a single thing.


 
no comment :lol:

This thread is going to be a great read though! Very informative. I wish I knew more on the subject, my older sister is a marine biologist and they even study how to make the water more natural, just for smaller things like crabs and fish... but I assume that the research is for a bigger picture.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

FlyinSoLow said:


> no comment :lol:


:lol: I agree...um...yeah, no comment.... 




FlyinSoLow said:


> This thread is going to be a great read though! Very informative. I wish I knew more on the subject, my older sister is a marine biologist and they even study how to make the water more natural, just for smaller things like crabs and fish... but I assume that the research is for a bigger picture.


It is amazing isn't it. I got to go into the water treatment area for the polar bear, penguin and sea lion exhibits recently. The thought and technology that goes into this stuff is just amazing. They want their animals to be as comfortable and natural as possible. And the knowledge is always expanding and even the small zoos seem to be up on the most current information and technology.


Honeysuga, do you realize how much money Ringling Broths spends on Elephant research? They are the reason baby elephants orphaned by poachers have a chance now days.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> It is amazing isn't it. I got to go into the water treatment area for the polar bear, penguin and sea lion exhibits recently. The thought and technology that goes into this stuff is just amazing. They want their animals to be as comfortable and natural as possible. And the knowledge is always expanding and even the small zoos seem to be up on the most current information and technology.


Thing is, everyone that keeps these animals has to stay on top of things, even the circus, becuase one little complaint gets out and they are shut down, attacked by peta even more so than they already are, fined big bucks, and possibly go to jail.... along with a lot of public out cry and loss of respect.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Oh, I totally agree.

Let me add that unhealthy and unhappy animals do not perform well and do not show well to the public.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

How do you force an 11,000 pound animal to perform. They use what we see as a performance to stimulate the animals. As far as putting the whales together I'm pretty sure that's how they get baby whales. I think the whale in question is with other whales right now. I realy think that zoo's and that type of exhibits are extremely beneficial to the animals. As was previously stated, people won't work to protect an animal that they have no emotional investment in. Researchers also have learned alot about the behavior and intelligence of the animals by observing them closer than would be possible in the wild particullarly in the case of migratory marine life like whales. If keeping a few whales in captivity increases our knowledge of these animals then it is well worth it.


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## Sissimut-icehestar (Jan 20, 2008)

My2Geldings said:


> From the letter that was brought up on the web, it looks like all whales held captive in Iceland and imported will never be able to be brought back to Iceland waters. That leaves them to stay captive the remainder of their life.


 This confuses me a bit, could you tell me which letter you are talking about?
In fact, no whales are held captive in Iceland as far as I know (and I should know) and never really have been. Keikó was actually being retrained for the wild here, he was in the ocean in Vestmannaeyjar.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Sissimut-icehestar said:


> Keikó was actually being retrained for the wild here, he was in the ocean in Vestmannaeyjar.


Yes, and he failed miserably at being retrained to think of himself as a wild orca.

He made a beeline for human habitats once released, and stayed near people until he died of pneumonia.

So much for returning him to the wild. Like Born Free's Elsa, it turned out to be a tragic mistake.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

interesting article on animal attacks:

Attacks, other incidents involving captive animals - Yahoo! News


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Sissimut-icehestar said:


> This confuses me a bit, could you tell me which letter you are talking about?


In this thread, a link to a letter was posted, regarding the issue of returning the Orcas that originally came from Iceland waters, back to Iceland.
http://www.horseforum.com/general-o...r-killed-killer-whale-48776/page8/#post563420


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> interesting article on animal attacks:
> 
> Attacks, other incidents involving captive animals - Yahoo! News


Sorry double post, but great article! thanks for posting the link!


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## Sissimut-icehestar (Jan 20, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> Yes, and he failed miserably at being retrained to think of himself as a wild orca.
> 
> He made a beeline for human habitats once released, and stayed near people until he died of pneumonia.
> 
> So much for returning him to the wild. Like Born Free's Elsa, it turned out to be a tragic mistake.


True, that project failed. That wasn't why I was mentioning it, I just wanted to say that he wasn't a show animal here.

And I've found some information on whales in captivity here, the newest ones I could find that were also reliable were almost 30 years old, so I was wrong on that point, but no whales are currently being hald in captivity.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Sissimut-icehestar said:


> True, that project failed. That wasn't why I was mentioning it, I just wanted to say that he wasn't a show animal here.
> 
> And I've found some information on whales in captivity here, the newest ones I could find that were also reliable were almost 30 years old, so I was wrong on that point, but no whales are currently being hald in captivity.


Why do you say it failed? He WAS free for what? four years? and he was 26 years old. The average life span of a male orca in the wild is 30 years with a maximum of 50.

In captivity, orcas often die before they reach 20 years of age—almost no males achieve 30, and only a few females have lived past 30.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/a_closer_look_at_marine_mammals/orcas.html


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Farmpony, it failed because he _refused_ to be set free.

He stayed around human habitats, even though he had the whole wide ocean in which to go. 

He was taken from his pod as a baby, and they were never found again. So he stuck with the only other mammal he was familiar and comfortable with; humans.

I've always found Keiko's story to be tragic.


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## Sissimut-icehestar (Jan 20, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> Why do you say it failed? He WAS free for what? four years? and he was 26 years old. The average life span of a male orca in the wild is 30 years with a maximum of 50.
> 
> In captivity, orcas often die before they reach 20 years of age—almost no males achieve 30, and only a few females have lived past 30.
> 
> Orcas | The Humane Society of the United States


He was not free for 4 years, he was brought to Iceland in 1998 and died in 2003. It wasn't until 2002 that he could choose where and when he went somewhere and even after that he was "cared for"

here's an article I found
Why freeing Willy was the wrong thing to do - environment - 28 April 2009 - New Scientist


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## Iluvjunior (Feb 15, 2009)

Actually if any of you had watched the news you would of seen an animal behavioralist speaking. To a whale when he/she bonds with a trainer the whale feels like the trainer belongs to him. Most animal behavioralists think that he was jelaous that she had her back turned away and he wanted to play. He showed all the chacteristics of playing, not killing. IMHO he should be placed in a nice big tank in sea world without performing. Also Seaworld has been recongnized for their outstanding work with the whales. i went swimming with the Beluga whales while I was there and they listened to every signal. Yes there would be some species extinct without zoos and Seaworld.

Just my 2 cents.


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## trIplEcrOwngIrl (May 13, 2009)

I don't think that wild animals should be taken for our own pleasure but, if say, the animal was injured and unable to be retured to the wild then they could be put in some sort of educatinal program with proper living conditions and all. Other than that though, go on a safari trip for pete's sake!


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## Snapple122 (Aug 8, 2008)

Actually, if you think you have to go to Seaworld to see a real orca think again. Go on a whale watch. I know in Victoria, Canada they take people out on whale watches. You see real whales in their natural habitat not confined to tiny tanks and doing shows that are for a monetary benefit. I do not agree that Seaworld is this great place where we can go see exotic animals. You would sacrifce an animals well being and happiness and health just so you can see it? Go on Google. I'm sure they have loads of pictures of the animals that you're so desperate to see up close.


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## Snapple122 (Aug 8, 2008)

trIplEcrOwngIrl said:


> I don't think that wild animals should be taken for our own pleasure but, if say, the animal was injured and unable to be retured to the wild then they could be put in some sort of educatinal program with proper living conditions and all. *Other than that though, go on a safari trip for pete's sake*!


Thank you! Someone else gets it!


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## Snapple122 (Aug 8, 2008)

Maybe you should all do some reading on the subject. 
Just to clarify- I am not some PETA follower. I actually really don't like PETA at all. 

WSPA condemns seawolrd
http://www.wdcs.org/submissions_bin/Introduction_to_Captivity.pdf
http://www.wdcs.org/submissions_bin/Which_would_you_prefer.pdf


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Snapple122 said:


> Maybe you should all do some reading on the subject.
> Just to clarify- I am not some PETA follower. I actually really don't like PETA at all.
> 
> WSPA condemns seawolrd
> ...


Very interesting links Snapple. Thanks for posting them.


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## Snapple122 (Aug 8, 2008)

No problem  

Orcas are not endangered and in the wild, they have no natural enemies. They can even kill sharks. The only threat to orcas is man. So what is the point of having them in captivity? So they can be studied? No. Scientists study orcas in the wild and can learn just as much about them and possibly more.


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## Snapple122 (Aug 8, 2008)

sorry for the back to back posts but I found this and I thought it was very interesting. 

BBC - Earth News - Killer whales: What to do with captive orcas?


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