# weight critique



## beauforever23

side 







back view 







other side







front... sorry its a bad photo..


I'd like to know how his weight is looking and otherwise  thanks


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## 2horses

To me, he doesn't look very thin except for the third photo. I looked over the post again to see if that picture was taken at a different time, because he looks very thin there. Maybe he just needs some development over the topline.


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## banman

he is quite under weight, did you get him like that?


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## banman

sorry i should not say quite under weight, he is just under weight and needs some muscle on him


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## beauforever23

2horses said:


> To me, he doesn't look very thin except for the third photo. I looked over the post again to see if that picture was taken at a different time, because he looks very thin there. Maybe he just needs some development over the topline.


He has a sway back a little bit, to me or my vet he doesn't look bad. He's in walk trot work right now so, that should become better in a couple of weeks. 



banman said:


> he is quite under weight, did you get him like that?


no, he came from a bad situation.


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## beauforever23

well i have him under walk trot work... he's honestly not that bad in person but, in pictures he looks crap


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## myhorsesonador

he looks like he needs more muscle than any thing else. Also more protien.

Here is a good read.

Getting minis ready to show - Horsetopia Forum


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## beauforever23

myhorsesonador said:


> he looks like he needs more muscle than any thing else. Also more protien.
> 
> Here is a good read.
> 
> Getting minis ready to show - Horsetopia Forum


thanks i'll most defintiely take a look at that.


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## crimsonsky

i think this guy will look much better after he's packed on some pounds. even with trot work - he can't add muscle unless he's getting the necessary nutrients from his feed to turn into muscle. what is he being fed now and how long have you had him?


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## beauforever23

he's being fed... 2 1/2 scoops of grain in the morning and 4 flakes of hay... morning, night and afternoon... except for afternoon he gets 1 flake because he normally has hay left over from morning feed. 

i've had him for awhile... he just came back out of a full board place who treated him like crap.... like i said previously he looks like absolute crap in pictures, in person he's really not as bad as the pictures make him seem


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## crimsonsky

given what you're feeding him now and how he looks in these photos (i know photos can be deceiving) i would look into adding a pre and probiotic to his feed to help him utilize the nutrients that he's taking in. has he been dewormed and checked by a vet? i know i'm just someone on the internet, but i really think he needs to have his diet addressed (as in full diet overhaul because it doesn't seem like what he's getting now is working). 

how old is this guy? age can play a roll in weight assessment to a degree.


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## crimsonsky

i find this article helpful: Horse Health Care: Correct Horse Weight by Cherry Hill


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## beauforever23

crimsonsky said:


> given what you're feeding him now and how he looks in these photos (i know photos can be deceiving) i would look into adding a pre and probiotic to his feed to help him utilize the nutrients that he's taking in. has he been dewormed and checked by a vet? i know i'm just someone on the internet, but i really think he needs to have his diet addressed (as in full diet overhaul because it doesn't seem like what he's getting now is working).
> 
> how old is this guy? age can play a roll in weight assessment to a degree.


He's 15... He's been checked by a vet, he was just dewormed on the 6th and I intend to worm him again in another 6 weeks. I am probably going to put him on beet pulp but, I am going to talk to my vet before I make any further BIG adjustments to his feed. I don't need him colicing on me. he's needs his teeth done though so, that's playing a roll as of right now.


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## crimsonsky

hey - the best thing here is that you're taking an active roll in making sure your horse has the best care. kudos for that!


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## beauforever23

you see he's around a 7ish... he's not anywhere 6 or under... he's not 8 but he's not 6 either. so i would say a 7


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## beauforever23

crimsonsky said:


> hey - the best thing here is that you're taking an active roll in making sure your horse has the best care. kudos for that!


my horse is like my kid, ONLY the best care for him. Trust me, he's really not bad, no ribs showing nor, can you feel them. He's in good care. 

I had him in a full board place last month and he was losing weight due to lack of food, water and adequete shelter. although now he's doing real well.







see 10x better picture of him, he takes crap pictures, he looks good though.


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## beauforever23

he's in a rough board situation now, where I feed him and take care of everything he needs. pictures don't even do justice for him. by the way, he has a little bit of a sway back and he has VERY prodominent withers so, I know his top looks like crap but, no matter how much we've tried it's always going to stay the same


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## WelcomeStranger28

He looks very happy and content  his rump is a little triangluar and his back is pretty dipped in the third photo, but is he an older horse, because those signs of triangle bum and dipped back are pretty comon in old horses! he looks fine


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## beauforever23

WelcomeStranger28 said:


> He looks very happy and content  his rump is a little triangluar and his back is pretty dipped in the third photo, but is he an older horse, because those signs of triangle bum and dipped back are pretty comon in old horses! he looks fine


thanks, he's a pretty good boy, unless he wants to be a little beast and that's why his nickname is "the beast" he's 15.


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## Golden Horse

beauforever23 said:


> you see he's around a 7ish... he's not anywhere 6 or under... he's not 8 but he's not 6 either. so i would say a 7


:think::?: are you talking about his Henneke score? I really would struggle to see the first pics you posted as a 7, no way, I would say more like a 4 than a 7. He looks like he needs both weight and muscle. He needs plenty of good quality to put on more flesh, and then lots of conditioning work to turn that flesh into muscle.

Hopefully it won't be to long until we get some warmer weather and some green grass, it makes it a lot easier to feed and exercise.


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## beauforever23

Golden Horse said:


> :think::?: are you talking about his Henneke score? I really would struggle to see the first pics you posted as a 7, no way, I would say more like a 4 than a 7. He looks like he needs both weight and muscle. He needs plenty of good quality to put on more flesh, and then lots of conditioning work to turn that flesh into muscle.
> 
> Hopefully it won't be to long until we get some warmer weather and some green grass, it makes it a lot easier to feed and exercise.


well like i have said before, pictures make him look like crap. he looks good in person. i know that he definitely needs muscle. i know that for a fact. 

right now, i work him walk and trot, he doesn't do any canter either. he has pretty good hay and he's on senior feed, honestly he's about a 7. it's pretty nice over here in New York. we were in the 60's earlier today I think. It was really warm and I was actually only wearing a tshirt.

his hay is really green. I mean green. It's real good hay.


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## crimsonsky

i don't want to sound rude, but i can't imagine any way to look at those pictures and see a horse anywhere near a 7. he's a 3-4 imo based on the lack of fat deposits present/visible on this back, neck, shoulders, withers and tail head. his ribs may not be blatantly evident but that can't be the only deciding factor here. 

perhaps a diet with a higher fat content would benefit this guy as it sounds like he's getting plenty of hay but that's clearly not providing the calories/fat that he needs to gain healthy weight.


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## beauforever23

crimsonsky said:


> i don't want to sound rude, but i can't imagine any way to look at those pictures and see a horse anywhere near a 7. he's a 3-4 imo based on the lack of fat deposits present/visible on this back, neck, shoulders, withers and tail head. his ribs may not be blatantly evident but that can't be the only deciding factor here.
> 
> perhaps a diet with a higher fat content would benefit this guy as it sounds like he's getting plenty of hay but that's clearly not providing the calories/fat that he needs to gain healthy weight.


I don't mean to sound rude either but, he's not a 3 or 4. I have numerous people who see him on a daily basis and he's most definitely not a 3 or 4. I read all of them he's more of a 7. 

His withers are prodominent withers, as said previously. His withers have always been that way, his top line is still there, i know it doesn't look like it in pictures but, the top line is still there, hasn't gone away. He's on 14% fat. You aren't able to feel or see ribs. at all.


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## HowClever

*sigh* I wish I had one of these magical cameras that takes weight off in photos! 

If that horse is a 7 then mine must be off the scale.


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## beauforever23

my camera doesn't take weight off in the photos, he just doesn't photograph easily


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## HowClever

Nope, sorry. One or 2 bad photos you can pass off as camera angle. When each photo shows the same story then the problem does not lie with the photos/camera.


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## beauforever23

once again he's not as bad as the pictures come across. even my vet says so.


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## HowClever

I respectfully disagree. Your horse needs more weight no matter which way you spin it. 

Why ask for a weight critique when you are going to disagree with everyone that tells you that he is underweight?


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## Xela

He wouldn't look as bad if he wasn't out of shape and had muscle on him. I'm all for a little bit of ribs showing if the horse is in shape and muscled up. But he just looks wasted away. I'd probably re-evaluate my feeding program if I were you, check him for worms, and possibly ulcers. His coat is dull, and his withers and hip bones are prominent...


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## beauforever23

I'm not disagreeing worth of crap. I definitely know he could use a little bit more weight but, he's not emaciated & he's definitely not a 3 or 4. I just reread that chart thing and he's not a 3 or 4, he's definitely more of a 5 maybe. I read it too fast. Whoops. 

At least I have money to afford him unlike other people I have seen, who have horses and don't have money to afford them and they are skin & bones. I know he needs more but, it doesn't work in a day ya know.


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## beauforever23

Xela said:


> He wouldn't look as bad if he wasn't out of shape and had muscle on him. I'm all for a little bit of ribs showing if the horse is in shape and muscled up. But he just looks wasted away. I'd probably re-evaluate my feeding program if I were you, check him for worms, and possibly ulcers. His coat is dull, and his withers and hip bones are prominent...


I got my feeding program from a nutritionanist, he's getting more than enough food. I wormed him already and will worm in another 6 weeks, vet normally checks for everything and I'll have him check the next time he is out. Hip bones are not prominent in person and his withers have ALWAYS been like that. 

His coat is dull because, he hasn't had a bath and he's dirty, he cleans up very nicely in the spring time, he has a bath coming the next time we see nice weather. He's not wasted away either, so sorry if i'm being cruel here but, that's not true. 

He gets worked, muscle doesn't happen at the snap of a finger.


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## Xela

Maybe you need to re-evaluate the scale used for evaluating horses... 

How to Condition Score Horses - by Susan Evans Garlinghouse


> The descriptions for the individual categories are as follows:
> *Condition Score 1: Emaciated:* Bony structures of neck, shoulders and withers easily noticeable. Spinous processes, along the ribs, topline, point of hip and point of buttock all project prominently, with an obvious ridge down the back. Individual vertebrae may be identifiable.There is significant space between inner buttocks ("twist"). The animal is extremely emaciated; no fatty tissue can be felt.
> 
> *Condition Score 2: Very Thin:* Bony structures of the neck, shoulders and withers are faintly discernible. Spinous processes, ribs, topline, point of hip and buttock are prominent. Noticeable space between inner buttocks. Animal is emaciated.
> *Condition Score 3: Thin:* _*Neck, withers and shoulder are accentuated, but not obviously thin. Tailhead is prominent. Slight fat cover over ribs, but still easily discernible. *_ Spinous processes, point of hip and point of buttock are rounded, but easily discernible. Twist is filled in, but without noticeable deposition of fatty tissue.
> *Condition Score 4: Moderately Thin:* Neck, withers and shoulders are not obviously thin. Ribs are faintly discernible. Point of hips and buttocks are not visually discernible. Fat can be felt around the tailhead, prominence somewhat dependent upon conformation. There is a slight negative crease (a ridge) along the topline, especially over the loins and hindquarters.
> *Condition Score 5: Moderate:* Neck, withers and shoulder appear rounded and blend smoothly into the body. Ribs cannot be seen but are easily felt. Back is level with neither a ridge nor a gully along the topline. Fat around tailhead is beginning to feel spongey. Slight amount of discernible fat deposited between buttocks (twist).
> *Condition Score 6: Moderately Fleshy: * Fat beginning to be deposited along the neck, withers and shoulders. Fat over the ribs beginning to feel spongey, ribs cannot easily be felt. Fat around tailhead feels soft. May be slight positive crease (gully) along the topline. Noticeable fat deposition between buttocks.
> *Condition Score 7: Fleshy:* Fat deposited along neck and withers and behind shoulder. Individual ribs can be felt, but with noticeable filling between ribs. Slight positive crease down back. Fat around tailhead feels soft.
> *Condition Score 8: Fat:* Noticeable thickening of neck. Area along withers is filled with fat, area behind shoulder is filled in flush with body. Ribs cannot be felt, noticeable positive crease down back, fat around tailhead is very soft. Significant fat deposited along inner buttocks.
> *Condition Score 9: Extremely Fat:* Bulging fat along neck, shoulders and withers. Flank is filled in flush. Patchy fat appearing over ribs, obvious positive crease down back. Obvious fat deposited along inner buttocks.


Sorry but your horse is CLEARLY a 3-4 on the scale. Honestly I would put your horse at 3.5. What is your horse being fed? Winter coat is NO excuse for the coat to be dull, and he is in need of a lot of muscle. Looks to me like he hasn't been worked in over a year....


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## HowClever

No one said it happens in a day. You asked for a weight critique. We are all telling you he is underweight. You just admitted that and yet you're up in arms telling everyone they are wrong? I am sorry, but he doesn't look like a 5 to me either.


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## beauforever23

well, he's not emaciated, he's not very thin, he's not thin, he's moderately fleshy. So he's a 6. I see this horse EVERYDAY. I know what he looks like in person versus, picture.


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## HowClever

Again I disagree. This is my mare who is hovering between a 6-7 at the moment


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## beauforever23

HowClever said:


> No one said it happens in a day. You asked for a weight critique. We are all telling you he is underweight. You just admitted that and yet you're up in arms telling everyone they are wrong? I am sorry, but he doesn't look like a 5 to me either.


Alright, blehhh I probably can't fix that... he's not moderately fleshy, he's at 5. I just read it with my eyes wide open... I'm not telling anyone that they are wrong... I'm telling what I know.. he looks nothing like a 4...


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## Xela

Okay honestly? Have you looked at these photos. He is not moderately fleshy. Moderately fleshy means his tail head does not stick out, his hip bones are not visible, you can't really see their ribs. He needs about 50-100 pounds. The reason I think you can't realize this is because you see him every day. Pictures tend to make horses look better then they really are. That second to last picture makes him look like he's honestly? a rescue case. If your going to ask for a weight critique, you need to learn to accept what people say. Just because YOU think he's a lot more than he really is, does not make the 5/10/15 people who say he is no where near a 6 wrong.

Here is a ***** with a body condition score of 3. 









Compared to your guy 









Now a side view 








 then your guy









Here's a 4 side shot for comparison


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## beauforever23

He's definitely not that skinny. Once again unlike other people I can afford to care for my horse. He may not be a fatty but, he's not super skinny. He needs muscle ovbiously and I'm working on that {slowly} because of my chest pains that I can't afford right now.


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## HowClever

*headdesk*


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## beauforever23

Xela said:


> Okay honestly? Have you looked at these photos. He is not moderately fleshy. Moderately fleshy means his tail head does not stick out, his hip bones are not visible, you can't really see their ribs. He needs about 50-100 pounds. The reason I think you can't realize this is because you see him every day. Pictures tend to make horses look better then they really are. That second to last picture makes him look like he's honestly? a rescue case. If your going to ask for a weight critique, you need to learn to accept what people say. Just because YOU think he's a lot more than he really is, does not make the 5/10/15 people who say he is no where near a 6 wrong.
> 
> Here is a ***** with a body condition score of 3.
> 
> 
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> 
> Compared to your guy
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now a side view
> 
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> 
> then your guy
> 
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> 
> Here's a 4 side shot for comparison


He's not a rescue case, he's not that bad. Don't make it sound that bad because, he's not. Yes, I have looked at the photos. Yeah, the vet said he's needs 50 pounds and he'll be good. The vet says so too so, please spare me with the "your horse looks like a rescue case" cause he most certainly doesn't". 

I accepted what you guys said and I am feeding and putting the weight on him. His hip bones are NOT sticking out, even my vet told me so. I know he needs a little more weight. I'm working on it.


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## beauforever23

Oh lord, listen his hip bone isn't as bad as that picture you just posted, also, I can see ribs on that horse you posted, I can't see my guys ribs nor can I feel them.


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## Xela

Sorry but he needs a bit more than 50 pounds and how long have you had him? Because he's deteriorated a lot since you posted pictures of you jumping him... *sighs* Really you can't see his ribs? Because I can see the outlines in the pictures you posted...


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## beauforever23

Xela said:


> Sorry but he needs a bit more than 50 pounds and how long have you had him? Because he's deteriorated a lot since you posted pictures of you jumping him... *sighs* Really you can't see his ribs? Because I can see the outlines in the pictures you posted...


My vet said 50 pounds should be fine. I've had him for almost about a year. No, he has NO friggen ribs showing NONEEE! 

DONT TELL ME WHAT I AND MY FRIGGEN VET FOR THAT MATTER KNOW. :evil: i'm going to have this thread deleted because you are ****ing me to the point of no return... 

YOU CAN'T FEEL MY GUYS RIBS, YOU CANT SEE THEM... NOR CAN THE VET... he hasn't deteriorated a lot... HE WAS IN A BAD BARN... WHO WASN'T FEEDING HIM RIGHT... It's being fixed!!!

I HAVENT JUMPED HIM EITHER...


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## Walkamile

:shock:.......I guess there is no point in offering my opinion. Good luck to you.


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## beauforever23

Can a mod please delete or lock this thread. I've had just about enough and I have nothing nice to say anymore.


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## HowClever

Me neither.


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## Hukassa

No one is accusing you of being a bad owner, no one is saying you cannot afford your horse. I'm sure everyone understands that your horse was in a bad situation where his nutrition was out of your control, and from your first post I thought you were asking for opinions for how much more weight he needs. Pictures don't lie and if you really compare the pictures Xela posted and your boy their identical. Instead of denying why don't you just accept he needs more weight than origanally thought. Your feeding plan sounds good, and if you just started on it give it time but if he has been on this schedule for awhile and is still this underweight then just find a different program that will work for him better. No one's critizing you, just trying to help you and you boy.


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## Xela

CHILL out. Dear god, this is not something you need to have an anger outburst about. You ask for opinions, you get them. It's a forum, people are going to disagree with you, the world is not ending. What is telling me your going to have it deleted supposed to do? It's not going to make me sugar coat things. I AM blunt, but I don't go spouting off inaccurate things....

As far as the jumping? Do you have more than one horse?? Because I searched your posts for past history to see if maybe he was a rescue, or to see if I could find what your feeding..



> I jumped my horse in the snow the other day and I have people who say it's stupid and dangerous to the horse. He never showed signs of not wanting to jump and we checked to see if there were any ice patches that he could slip on and there was no ice, anywhere around. If my horse didn't want to jump or would have refused the jump I wouldn't have done it at all.
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/jumping-horse-snow-76229/#ixzz1GLqxnVkq
> ​





>


I agree with ^^ Your not a bad owner, unless you go along thinking your boy is in prime condition. Realizing you may have an issue is an OKAY thing. We all slip a little and our horses may get skinny or what not.. It HAPPENS. No big deal as long as your trying to fix it. You asked for an opinion and we gave it. No reason to lose your cool.


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## Golden Horse

No one is saying that you are starving your horse, no one is saying that you can't afford to feed him, you asked for a critique, and people are offering their views.

Now actually I really sympathize with you, when I first bought Ace, hang on, here she is










Everyone was saying how poor she looked, (and she was, she had just been weaned from not one but TWO foals she raised last spring, her own and an orphan) but honestly I thought she looked better in the flesh than she did in photos.

I think part of it is that they look better in motion, her sway back makes her look worse, but somehow she just looks better moving than she does stood still.

The pics you have posted do NOT show a horse in any sort of fleshy condition, but the only important thing at the moment is that you are working to put more flesh on him, and then transform that flesh to muscle, and he will look great.


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## smrobs

It never fails. Someone asks for a weight critique then gets all defensive and snarky when people start telling them things they don't want to hear.

Yes, your horse is underweight. If ribs were not visible, then we would not be able to see them in the pictures. No, he is nowhere close to a 5 body score. The biggest giveaway to this is taken directly from this quote: 

"Body score of 5: *Moderate:* Neck, withers and shoulder appear rounded and blend smoothly into the body. Ribs cannot be seen but are easily felt. Back is level with neither a ridge nor a gully along the topline. Fat around tail head is beginning to feel spongey. Slight amount of discernible fat deposited between buttocks (twist). "

He is pretty much the polar opposite to every bit of this. Pictures may not completely do him justice, but they aren't going to steal 100 pounds off him either.

If you cannot accept critique gracefully without getting bratty about it, then perhaps you shouldn't ask for critiques.


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## crimsonsky

i don't think anyone here is implying he's going to plump out in a matter of days. what i'm reading and what i get from the majority of responses is exactly what i see - a horse that is lacking in some way in his nutrition. just giving a horse x amount of hay and x amount of grain doesn't mean that is going to bring a horse to a healthy weight. also - what works for horse A is probably going to be different than what works for horse B, C and D. 

i've made my comments based on your pictures because my TB gelding (unfortunately) looked a lot like that last winter. it was his first winter without a blanket (bad decision on my part obviously) and it greatly affected how much weight he was able to maintain. i've spent an entire year working on getting his weight back up to a healthy level before even thinking about putting specific muscle on. my horse then looked a lot like your horse now. he needs weight. whether that means you need to consider changing his feed (different hay, different grain, different combos of things), changing his housing or what - if you want a healthy happy horse something needs to change. 

if you want to continue to believe that he is a healthy weight and everything is fine (which begs the question - why post this thread?), then your horse will suffer for it in the long run.


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## usandpets

beauforever23 said:


> I'm not disagreeing worth of crap. I definitely know he could use a little bit more weight but, he's not emaciated & he's definitely not a 3 or 4. I just reread that chart thing and he's not a 3 or 4, he's definitely more of a 5 maybe. I read it too fast. Whoops.
> 
> At least I have money to afford him unlike other people I have seen, who have horses and don't have money to afford them and they are skin & bones. I know he needs more but, it doesn't work in a day ya know.


 You post pictures and ask for opinions on his weight. Whether or not he looks different in person, all we see is the pictures. That is what we are basing our opinions. You may not think you are disagreeing but you sure are being defensive. It seems like you really don't want anyones opinion unless we say he looks good.

You don't say what breed he is. Arabs will be thinner than a QH. Yes, age has a factor in how they look, but 15 really isn't that old for a horse. I've seen older ones that look better than him. In my opinion, he looks like a 4 at most. He's lacking a top line and muscle on the rear, but that could be in his breed. It looks like he has no fat reserves at all. You said you can't feel or even see his ribs. Sure looks like they are showing in the first pics.

You say he's dirty because you can't wash him and you say you're having 60 degree days. How warm does it need to be? I would wash them as long as it was above 45-50.

I would do the same with putting him on beet pulp, but it's not likely he will colic from it. Beet pulp is easy to digest and is really good for horses that have ulcers, not that yours has them. If you could, I would have him on free choice hay. Also, make sure he has good clean water at all times.


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## beauforever23

he has clean water AT ALL TIMES and has free choice hay AT ALL TIMES. his housing cant be changed it's how the facility is put up. He's inside at night, goes out in the afternoon. He's a TB. He's a rough keeper. 

He IS dirty. I can wash him but, I don't want to until it's like 70. He shivers if it's not like above 60's. He didn't have a blanket on him either during this winter so, maybe that played a HUGE roll but, he was in a bad situation which he was just taken out of on the 1st. Read my other thread.

He's way happy though and is on a VERY strict feeding schedule.


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## bubba13

Really no reason at all that a Thoroughbred should be a hard keeper, unless there's something physically wrong with it. He needs to be on free choice high-quality hay and/or continuous access to pasture. Grain with added fat calories (vegetable oil, etc.) sure wouldn't hurt either. 

He's about a 4 on the BCS scale. Needs to put on fat/weight first, and then he needs a bunch of muscle along his topline.


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## beauforever23

nothing physically wrong with him. he's just a hard keeper. you need to read my post he's on free choice hay and it is high quality.


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## bubba13

But my point is that healthy horses are not hard keepers unless

1. they actually aren't healthy (ulcers, cancer, malabsorption issues, dental problems, etc.).
2. their feeding program is not adequate.
3. their work load burns off more calories than they are consuming.


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## NdAppy

So which is it?

This -


beauforever23 said:


> nothing physically wrong with him. he's just a hard keeper. you need to read my post he's on free choice hay and it is high quality.


Or this -


beauforever23 said:


> he's being fed... 2 1/2 scoops of grain in the morning and 4 flakes of hay... morning, night and afternoon... except for afternoon he gets 1 flake because he normally has hay left over from morning feed.



Either he is on free choice hay or he isn't.


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## beauforever23

he's on free choice hay... sorry i made a mistake.. i was ****ed.


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## beauforever23

bubba13 said:


> But my point is that healthy horses are not hard keepers unless
> 
> 1. they actually aren't healthy (ulcers, cancer, malabsorption issues, dental problems, etc.).
> 2. their feeding program is not adequate.
> 3. their work load burns off more calories than they are consuming.



he's been checked for cancer, malabsorption, he needs his teeth done which will be done next week. feeding program came from a nutriostonist, so his feeding program is more than adequate, wouldn't you think?


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## HowClever

I am still not understanding why you are asking for a weight critique if you're "vet" says he is fine and his diet came from a "nutritionist"?


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## AlexS

Beau chill out a little, you can't ask for opinions and then freak out. 
I think he looks like a 4 as well. 

I have a skinny TB as well, and I am working hard to put weight on him.


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## beauforever23

why do more problems have to start. Really. Is it even necessary for this problem. I asked for a weight critique because, I wanted some different opinions. Yes, i got my feed program from a nutrisonist so, I know exactly how much to feed or how much is a danger for colic. 

Was I wrong? No! Most people who have skinny horses or horses that need a bit more weight just take a shot in the dark.


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## HowClever

How long has he been on his current feeding program?


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## NdAppy

I am with everyone else who has been saying that he is a 3/4 on the scale. He needs a topline and more muscle in general.


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## bubba13

Well, said "nutritionist's" feed program must not be adequate if the horse is still underweight....


----------



## bubba13

Wait, the nutritionist program was just a generic one, not specially formulated for this specific horse's needs?


----------



## beauforever23

HowClever said:


> How long has he been on his current feeding program?


Quick question. Do we not know how to read or are you guys passing what I say up? He got back on a good feeding program on the 1st of march. 

He was in a bad boarding situation, now he's in a better place, it started on the 1st of march. 10 days ago. 



bubba13 said:


> Well, said "nutritionist's" feed program must not be adequate if the horse is still underweight....


You really think it's going to take this short of time for him to pick up a decent weight? Once again he's a TB


----------



## beauforever23

bubba13 said:


> Wait, the nutritionist program was just a generic one, not specially formulated for this specific horse's needs?


wasn't a generic one. It was one specifically fit to my horse.


----------



## HowClever

No need to throw around personal insults, I must have missed that post.

What sort of grain is he getting?


----------



## beauforever23

NdAppy said:


> I am with everyone else who has been saying that he is a 3/4 on the scale. He needs a topline and more muscle in general.


Yeah, i'm working on it. It's not going to come over night. I intend to buy beet pulp tomorrow..


----------



## beauforever23

HowClever said:


> No need to throw around personal insults, I must have missed that post.
> 
> What sort of grain is he getting?


He's getting 14% Senior Poulin I think. I have to check the bag. I know it's a senior grain and it's 14%


----------



## HowClever

Is this the one? EQUI-PRO® Premium Senior with Glucosamine | Equine | Poulin Grain - Dairy, Equine, Pet, And Livestock Feeds


----------



## beauforever23

no.. i lied it's stablemate grain... i'm so stressed right now. 
h/o i'll find it.


----------



## beauforever23

Stablemate™ Complete 14% Horse Pellet | Equine | Poulin Grain - Dairy, Equine, Pet, And Livestock Feeds 
this is the grain i have him on


----------



## HowClever

If he were mine I would probably switch him on to something with a higher fat content or add in something like rice bran.


----------



## beauforever23

well, what grain would you suggest than? this one already has beet pulp in it and I was going to go to the grain and feed store tomorrow and buy beet pulp. I heard it works pretty well and puts fat on pretty quick


----------



## bubba13

No, beet pulp has very little nutritional value....

What you want are fat calories. And vegetable oil is the cheapest way to do that. Just add some to the regular feeding program.


----------



## HowClever

Beet pulp is good in some aspects, but if he is already on free choice hay it may not be exactly what he needs. Good to add in though. 

I can't suggest brands or the like as I am in Australia. However, I fattened up my crew on beet pulp, rice bran & lupins for the most part. The older boys also get a senior feed. 

These 2 were my biggest turn arounds


----------



## beauforever23

bubba13 said:


> No, beet pulp has very little nutritional value....
> 
> What you want are fat calories. And vegetable oil is the cheapest way to do that. Just add some to the regular feeding program.


how much vegetable oil? and are you talking about vegetable oil like 






that kind of vegetable oil? if so, how much should i put in? when would i start seeing a change and what exactly does vegetable oil do to enhance weight gain?



HowClever said:


> Beet pulp is good in some aspects, but if he is already on free choice hay it may not be exactly what he needs. Good to add in though.
> 
> I can't suggest brands or the like as I am in Australia. However, I fattened up my crew on beet pulp, rice bran & lupins for the most part. The older boys also get a senior feed.
> 
> These 2 were my biggest turn arounds


rice bran? any you can suggest? and what is lupins?


----------



## bubba13

> *Fabulous Fats
> *If after adjusting feed amounts, formulations and exercise your horse still doesn’t achieve the desired weight gain, it may be time to consider a weight-gain supplement. The quickest route to increased weight gain without risky side effects is by adding fat in the form of a top dressing.
> "Horses utilize fat much more efficiently than human beings do," Dr. Kerr says. "It is a good source of energy as well as an additive for weight gain." Fat has a number of benefits for the working equine. Not only is it 85 percent digestible, it’s free from carbohydrates, which means it doesn’t contribute to a risk of colic or founder. It produces 30 percent less heat than protein in the metabolic process, and it is an easy way to increase calories without increasing feed volume. Not to mention the glossy coat it produces!
> Commercial weight-gain supplements often contain stabilized rice bran or flaxseed products as major ingredients. Both are excellent sources of high-quality fat calories. Stabilized rice bran alone can be fed as a top dressing, but it is extremely high in phosphorus, which creates the possibility of a calcium/phosphorous imbalance unless the diet is carefully modified. Flaxseed meal can also be fed alone. Freshness is the key, and it can be ground at home from whole flaxseeds using an electric coffee grinder. Flaxseed must be ground for horses to benefit; otherwise it passes right through the digestive system.
> The most economic way to increase fat calories in the diet is by adding common vegetable oil. One cup of corn or safflower oil contains 240 grams of fat, the equivalent of 1.2 pounds of corn or 1.5 pounds of sweet feed. Thus it can be substituted as part of the daily grain ration. But standard cooking oil does not contain the beneficial fatty acids found in flaxseed oil, and it is important to store properly to avoid rancidity.


Balancing Your Horse's Diet to Achieve an Ideal Weight - HorseChannel.com


----------



## beauforever23

i read it but, didn't quite comprehend that? vegetable oil? like cooking vegetable oil... or the one I just pictured, would that be the vegetable oil to put in his feed? also, how much?


----------



## bubba13

Yes, regular vegetable or corn oil will work (though it is not as good as other fat sources, it is still safe, effective, and far cheaper), and you usually feed a cup a day, increasing from zero over several days to prevent a shock to the system.


----------



## beauforever23

so start him off with a cup a day and move up to more? how much of a difference will it make and how long would it take? just curious


----------



## Golden Horse

Start him off with a tablespoon full then gradually increase to a cup full


----------



## bubba13

No, start with a quarter cup the first day, then half a cup the following day, then 3/4, then finally stay with one cup a day. It should make a fairly significant difference assuming he is very healthy otherwise and he is not burning too many calories from riding or whatever. But it will take at least several weeks to see any results, as anything will...

Edit: Or what GH said. Hers is more conservative, possibly safer...


----------



## AlexS

Is Canola oil better than vegetable oil? Or is it all the same thing and it doesn't matter?


----------



## beauforever23

Thank You!  I just want to say that I am sorry for being a huge shrew. I know he needs more weight and I do see him everyday so, it's hard for me to see I guess but, thank you for the help. 

I am going to start on the vegetable oil tomorrow? Do i give it to him morning and night? Or just morning? or just night?


----------



## bubba13

Mmmph, it's been a long time since I've had a skinny horse. Might be better to split the oil between the two servings, but still max out at one cup per day. And Alex, I really don't know.


----------



## beauforever23

Okay thank you


----------



## AlexS

bubba13 said:


> Mmmph, it's been a long time since I've had a skinny horse. Might be better to split the oil between the two servings, but still max out at one cup per day. And Alex, I really don't know.


I personally would split it between 2 feeds. 

I asked about Canola oil as I thought this was better, but I don't know why I think this - it's just one of those things that you think you know without any proof or backup. As I am not too up on that type of thing, I thought I would ask.


----------



## beauforever23

split it up between 2 feeds meaning, give it to him morning and night?


----------



## AlexS

beauforever23 said:


> split it up between 2 feeds meaning, give it to him morning and night?


I would give the daily dose and half it between the two meals. So start out with a few tablespoons a day, so one tablespoon per feed. And build up.


----------



## gottatrot

I have noticed many horses prefer the taste of corn oil to other vegetable oils. Fats are easily digested by horses and the amount you feed is mostly limited by how much concentrate your horse is eating. In other words, your horse won't lap up corn oil (at least I've never met one that will), so you can only feed as much as can be mixed into the grain and still be palatable to your horse. I feed about a cup per day. If you split it between two feedings you can give more. 

My comment about the nutritionist is: I would view her recommendations as a good starting point. There is no way anyone can evaluate your horse by looking at him and tell you how much you should feed. For example: I have two horses that are almost the same size, the same breed, and in the same amount of work. The older one eats 2 lbs. of concentrate per day while the younger one needs 10 lbs. per day when she is not even in heavy work. So how could anyone know how much they need to eat unless they fed them personally? 

So I would use the recommendations as a starting point. Evaluate your horse every several days. Is the horse noticeably gaining weight, losing weight or staying the same? Then increase the feed accordingly. Although you can't feed grain in large amounts you can safely feed beet pulp, rice bran, alfalfa, or a complete horse feed in as large of a quantity as your horse needs to gain weight.


----------



## churumbeque

beauforever23 said:


> well, he's not emaciated, he's not very thin, he's not thin, he's moderately fleshy. So he's a 6. I see this horse EVERYDAY. I know what he looks like in person versus, picture.


I see a 3 and you are looking through rose colored glasses


----------



## churumbeque

beauforever23 said:


> Oh lord, listen his hip bone isn't as bad as that picture you just posted, also, I can see ribs on that horse you posted, I can't see my guys ribs nor can I feel them.


I see his ribs through his thick winter coat


----------



## apachiedragon

I skimmed, so if I missed info, or am repeating, please excuse me. I do agree he needs some weight. And you've gotten some really good nutritional advice so far.

I think I read you feed him once a day and he gets hay several times. (I did see something later about splitting oil between two meals, so not really sure if he's grained once or twice a day) but something simple that might help is to break his big meal into smaller ones. That is more natural for the way horses bodies work, and he'd likely absorb more nutrients if it was spread out. Now I know you said he was on rough board now, and you were feeding him. If you can't get out there more times a day, could you maybe switch out with someone so that he gets fed more often? You could mix up smaller meals in labeled buckets so that someone just had to toss it to him as they were there and then you could return the favor by, oh, I don't know, haying for them later or something.


----------



## kitten_Val

AlexS said:


> Is Canola oil better than vegetable oil? Or is it all the same thing and it doesn't matter?


Better. It does have omega 3 as well while corn is only omega 6 and veggie I believe mostly omega 6.

OP, your best bet would be smaller feeds through the day (as already suggested). Another suggestion is to add ground flax to the feed (lots of omega 3, helps with coat etc.).


----------



## AlexS

Thanks Kitten.


----------



## beauforever23

gottatrot said:


> I have noticed many horses prefer the taste of corn oil to other vegetable oils. Fats are easily digested by horses and the amount you feed is mostly limited by how much concentrate your horse is eating. In other words, your horse won't lap up corn oil (at least I've never met one that will), so you can only feed as much as can be mixed into the grain and still be palatable to your horse. I feed about a cup per day. If you split it between two feedings you can give more.
> 
> My comment about the nutritionist is: I would view her recommendations as a good starting point. There is no way anyone can evaluate your horse by looking at him and tell you how much you should feed. For example: I have two horses that are almost the same size, the same breed, and in the same amount of work. The older one eats 2 lbs. of concentrate per day while the younger one needs 10 lbs. per day when she is not even in heavy work. So how could anyone know how much they need to eat unless they fed them personally?
> 
> So I would use the recommendations as a starting point. Evaluate your horse every several days. Is the horse noticeably gaining weight, losing weight or staying the same? Then increase the feed accordingly. Although you can't feed grain in large amounts you can safely feed beet pulp, rice bran, alfalfa, or a complete horse feed in as large of a quantity as your horse needs to gain weight.


I am definitely going to try the vegetable oil. I have his schedule worked out that he gets it split up between 2 different feedings {night & morning} The thing with the nutritionist is, is that she has seen my horse and that's how she figured out what to give him and how much. I honestly don't think anyone can just say um yeah. 

I will evaluate him over the next several days and I am going to start him on the oil tonight for his dinner and see how he does on that over the next several days. If i don't see anything, although as said previously to me, i am not going to see anything for a week or so than I'll start putting him on beet pulp or rice bran. 

Where can I find rice bran? Is that something I can find in a supermarket and safely use? Or go to tack store? I'm new to all this, giving him rice bran and oil stuff so any help on where I can get it would be appreciated. 




churumbeque said:


> I see a 3 and you are looking through rose colored glasses


I am looking through rose colored glasses? Honestly, what does that mean? I've accepted that he needs more weight on him and that's why I took everyone's advice and stopped being a witch. I know he needs weight on him but, that's not going to happen by tomorrow, it might take a few weeks and I've accepted that.

I was in over my head, I was getting nasty, I am a hot head and I apologized for that in a earlier post but, now I am ready to listen and take advice and get him to a healthy weight. I don't know if that was a personal insult but, please don't insult me, I know I have done it to other people in this thread and I was wrong. I learn from my mistakes and I am not hot headed anymore. There is no need to start a problem or be defensive anymore. 



apachiedragon said:


> I skimmed, so if I missed info, or am repeating, please excuse me. I do agree he needs some weight. And you've gotten some really good nutritional advice so far.
> 
> I think I read you feed him once a day and he gets hay several times. (I did see something later about splitting oil between two meals, so not really sure if he's grained once or twice a day) but something simple that might help is to break his big meal into smaller ones. That is more natural for the way horses bodies work, and he'd likely absorb more nutrients if it was spread out. Now I know you said he was on rough board now, and you were feeding him. If you can't get out there more times a day, could you maybe switch out with someone so that he gets fed more often? You could mix up smaller meals in labeled buckets so that someone just had to toss it to him as they were there and then you could return the favor by, oh, I don't know, haying for them later or something.


Nope, I feed him twice a day. He gets morning & night and gets free choice hay. Break his big meal into smaller ones, meaning what? I can get out there as many times as need be, I'm only like 10 mins away from the barn so it's easy to me to get there. 

I am still stuck on the smaller meals? How would I work that? 




kitten_Val said:


> Better. It does have omega 3 as well while corn is only omega 6 and veggie I believe mostly omega 6.
> 
> OP, your best bet would be smaller feeds through the day (as already suggested). Another suggestion is to add ground flax to the feed (lots of omega 3, helps with coat etc.).


Grrr, smaller feeds? I am so confused right now and I don't know why. Sorry, how would I work that? Any suggestions on how to do smaller feeds? 

Also, ground flax? where can I get that? What does that do to help gain weight? Where can I find that? 

Thanks for all the help


----------



## Walkamile

I believe "smaller feeds" is simply smaller feedings. For example, instead of feeding 2 X's, you take that amount you would have fed for the day and divide it into 3 or even 4 feedings. This is if you have a schedule that would allow you to be there and do that.

I have tried, for my "hard keeper", beet pulp and wheat bran (you can buy the rice bran at the feed store) and never got the results until one of my vets gave me a formula that works well for his daughters eventing horses (TB's). Has worked like a charm and he doesn't lose any weight while in work either. I tried deviating from it a few times, and sure as anything, he lost weight. 

And yes, it will take time to build up the weight. Don't change from one thing to another too quick. Give whatever you decide to try at least 2 -4 weeks to show if it's working. Changing often is very hard on a horse.


----------



## beauforever23

Walkamile said:


> I believe "smaller feeds" is simply smaller feedings. For example, instead of feeding 2 X's, you take that amount you would have fed for the day and divide it into 3 or even 4 feedings. This is if you have a schedule that would allow you to be there and do that.
> 
> I have tried, for my "hard keeper", beet pulp and wheat bran (you can buy the rice bran at the feed store) and never got the results until one of my vets gave me a formula that works well for his daughters eventing horses (TB's). Has worked like a charm and he doesn't lose any weight while in work either. I tried deviating from it a few times, and sure as anything, he lost weight.
> 
> And yes, it will take time to build up the weight. Don't change from one thing to another too quick. Give whatever you decide to try at least 2 -4 weeks to show if it's working. Changing often is very hard on a horse.


Oh okay, thank you for clearing that up. How much would I be looking at for the rice bran? I will stay with the vegetable oil for the next 2-4 weeks, and see how he does on that and if that doesn't do well than I will try something different, like the rice bran or beet pulp and wheat bran. 

Thank You.


----------



## Walkamile

Actually Beau, I would be tempted to keep him on the oil a bit longer because part of the time will have been spent building up to the full dose amount. So if it takes a week to a week and a half to build up to a full cup a day of feeding, then I'd evaluate him in 5 to 6 weeks. But that's just my personal experience here. Sadly the oil and beet pulp and wheat bran (I used wheat instead of rice but the rice would be a better choice I think) never really got him to where he is now. It would have been kinder on my pocket book (lol), but that's the way it goes sometimes with some horses. 

Walka's mother (T) gains weight just looking at hay! Him, not so much. :lol:

You mentioned that he was going to have his teeth done soon. That may also make a noticeable difference too, as he will be able to chew his food properly and get better benefits from it. That is if he has any issues at the moment with his teeth. Always good to have the teeth checked , so good for you for looking in that direction.

Oh, when I was feeding Walka oil (I used corn oil) I bought it at a liquidation store in the next town over. Was able to buy bulk at cheap price, every little bit helps right? Maybe there is a store similar nearby you to save on the purse strings.


----------



## beauforever23

i started him on the vegetable oil tonight and he ate it thank god. I put it in his grain and he ate it right up. Now, i mixed it around with my hand so, to make sure it got all around the grain. so, i am going to give him around 4-6 weeks as suggested. 

Thank You all. i'm sorry for being so immature awhile ago in this thread but, thank you all


----------



## apachiedragon

It can be hard not to get defensive when people are telling you what you don't want to hear about an animal that you love. The important thing is you are doing what needs to be done to get him right. No harm, no foul. 

Sorry I was gone all day, so I couldn't get back to you, but yes, like Walka said, I meant give him the same amount of food broken up into more feedings. That way each one gets a chance to digest, and you don't end up wasting feed that he isn't getting nutrients from.


----------



## beauforever23

Thanks Apachie, i started him on it tonight and I will most likely split it up between 3 feedings but, I want to get the vet in to do his teeth first. 

I swirled the vegetable oil with my hand in the grain so, it got on all the grain. I'm sure that was ok right? I mean he ate it.


----------



## Walkamile

LOL, yes swirling with your hand is fine. I prefer to use a hard plastic spoon, but what you did is fine.


----------



## beauforever23

Has anyone had luck with the vegetable oil?


----------



## churumbeque

I am looking through rose colored glasses? Honestly, what does that mean? I've accepted that he needs more weight on him and that's why I took everyone's advice and stopped being a witch. I know he needs weight on him but, that's not going to happen by tomorrow, it might take a few weeks and I've accepted that.

I was in over my head, I was getting nasty, I am a hot head and I apologized for that in a earlier post but, now I am ready to listen and take advice and get him to a healthy weight. I don't know if that was a personal insult but, please don't insult me, I know I have done it to other people in this thread and I was wrong. I learn from my mistakes and I am not hot headed anymore. There is no need to start a problem or be defensive anymore. 


Thanks for all the help[/QUOTE]
When I posted I was on the earlier pages and after that I did notice that you started to settle down and get what people were saying.
Not trying to start a problem but it's easy to post something on an earlier page and not read all of the pages that came up as quickly as these did.


----------



## bubba13

I've had great luck with the oil in the past. It's just an easy way to add safe (fat) calories.


----------



## usandpets

bubba13 said:


> No, beet pulp has very little nutritional value....
> 
> What you want are fat calories. And vegetable oil is the cheapest way to do that. Just add some to the regular feeding program.


 Beet pulp is good for horses with ulcers, since grain will aggrivate them. It's easily digested. We have a hard keeper and he does well with beet pulp. It has also put weight on our other horses and we only feed it to them it 4 times a week. It seems to work better than grain or sweet feed.

I didn't know that about the oil. Thanks for the info.


----------



## beauforever23

churumbeque said:


> I am looking through rose colored glasses? Honestly, what does that mean? I've accepted that he needs more weight on him and that's why I took everyone's advice and stopped being a witch. I know he needs weight on him but, that's not going to happen by tomorrow, it might take a few weeks and I've accepted that.
> 
> I was in over my head, I was getting nasty, I am a hot head and I apologized for that in a earlier post but, now I am ready to listen and take advice and get him to a healthy weight. I don't know if that was a personal insult but, please don't insult me, I know I have done it to other people in this thread and I was wrong. I learn from my mistakes and I am not hot headed anymore. There is no need to start a problem or be defensive anymore.
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the help


When I posted I was on the earlier pages and after that I did notice that you started to settle down and get what people were saying.
Not trying to start a problem but it's easy to post something on an earlier page and not read all of the pages that came up as quickly as these did.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I thought... well, yeah I thought what I thought... That's normally how it is.... Sorry, I normally think what I think and stick to that... I am sorry... Yeah, i assume it would be a little bit easier to post on earlier... 

Sorry, about that...  




bubba13 said:


> I've had great luck with the oil in the past. It's just an easy way to add safe (fat) calories.


Awesome, well I started him on it tonight so, I hope to have luck with it.  Does anyone have any before & after pictures of the difference it made. Sorry, I am just curious.


----------



## Golden Horse

I used oil with this mare, who arrived at my place in March










Here she is in June










Now in her case, lots of issues here, I didn't want to give her to much grain, I used soaked beet, not as a weight builder, but to tempt her to eat, and make it easy to for her to clean up her meals.

She needed to get in a lot of calories and I used canola oil to provide them, so she had beet, senior cubes and canola oil, at first 3 times a day, but later twice a day.

The trick is to make any feed changes slow and easy, and build up amounts slowly and steadily.


----------



## beauforever23

looks like to me that her hip bone is still showing a little bit.. Maybe I'm wrong? I am using vegetable oil though. Vegetable oil should show the same improvement right?


----------



## Golden Horse

For her it took a long time to come around, but then she had health issues, and we eventually lost her

Believe me I was pleased with how far we managed to get her, and I believe it was when we started adding oil that she started to gain both weight and improve her coat.

I'm sure others could share pics of healthy, but underweight horses that they have put weight on.


----------



## beauforever23

Oh, Golden Horse i am sorry to hear that. It's terrible to lose a horse. A horse I was very close to (taught me how to jump, taught me how to ride, etc..) had to be put down, he was a chronic laminits case, that went untreated for years, and at the point where they found the laminits, his coffin bone was actually about to like come out of his hoof. after spending 3350$ they finally put him down :-( 







thats him^. I was actually supposed to adopt him. what a gorgeous strawberry roan horse he was,


He was such a sweet old guy :-( and if my friend would have treated it, he would have probably been okay right now.:-( I wasn't there when they put him down but, i heard about it. cried for days :evil:

Anyway, I put my horse Beau on the vegetable oil last night so, I hope to see some change in the next 4 to 6 weeks.


----------



## AlexS

Beau I don't have photos to prove it, but Canola oil certainly helped Lucas a lot last winter.


----------



## beauforever23

thanks Alex


----------



## apachiedragon

Another thing the oil is good for is to help hard shedders lose that winter coat in the spring. We used to use corn oil on all of our older horses to help them shed. It is definitely a good way to add calories without spending a fortune. 

Another suggestion I might make, we have in the past added Manna Pro to those of ours that were hard to keep healthy bulk on, and it works very well. But it is mostly protein, and we added it to those on a 12% diet, not a 14% so it might not be the best choice in this case. It's been said, I don't think in this thread, but in others, add fat calories for fat gain, and protein for muscle gain. I'm sure some of you feed gurus could elaborate, that's not my expertise.

ETA, beau, that really was a pretty paint. My condolences to both you and Golden. Golden, you reminded me of a rescue we once did. He was 26 when we got him. He was tucked away in a pasture off the road, not a half mile from me. When I convinced the owners to give him up, it took us nearly 2 hours to walk that distance, as he was too weak to trailer. He had almost no teeth, so we soaked his feed and we did add oil. It did seem to help. I can't seem to find pics right now though.


----------



## kitten_Val

beauforever23 said:


> Grrr, smaller feeds? I am so confused right now and I don't know why. Sorry, how would I work that? Any suggestions on how to do smaller feeds?
> 
> Also, ground flax? where can I get that? What does that do to help gain weight? Where can I find that?


Lol! Walkamilie already explained (and I didn't go through the rest of responses), but basically yes, instead of say feeding 5 lbs of grain twice/day you feed 2 lbs 5 times/day. :wink:

I'm not sure what kind of stores you have around, but equine feed stores usually carry flax. Southern States and Bowmans in my area both sell flax either by pound or in bag. It usually comes as flax meal (looks like flour) or flax seeds. Places like TSC and on-line store also sell flax oil in bottle and that would be even nicer BUT it's very costly unfortunately (so I never tried it).

I did add oil to both my youngsters for while (they came in underweight). Now I mostly add flax meal and add canola oil during winter.


----------



## stablegirl

What kind of grain is he getting? If it's high energy sweet type feeds you might be going in the wrong direction. 

We had a couple rescues come through a couple years ago that were quite a bit thinner than your guy, and our vet recommended rice bran and beet pulp (soaked). Both are a good source of calories and easily digested fats without the sugar and hyperactivity problems of the grain we had been feeding.

As to weight, he's not horrible, but like you probably know, he could do with some more pounds. Do you have any hills to ride on? We noticed a huge difference in light exercise up hills vs light exercise on the flat, especially in the topline and butt. They both developed much more muscle much more quickly, and it took less time. Fifteen minutes of hill work was equaling about 45 minutes of work in the arena. 

Just thought I'd share my opinion . Hope it helps...


----------



## stablegirl

Sorry I only read the intial post and this posted pages and pages down...usually I scan to see if someone else has said kinda what I have!


----------



## BeauReba

I think he's under muscled but not under weight. I find most people think their horses are a good weight when really they're over weight!


----------



## beauforever23

BeauReba said:


> I think he's under muscled but not under weight. I find most people think their horses are a good weight when really they're over weight!


well, my horse is definitely not over weight. thanks though, i am working on his muscle a little bit more everyday. sadly, with all my chest pain he isn't being worked by me.


----------



## Gwill

I AGREE with 2horses =) 

he looks ok but need some development


----------



## beauforever23

yeah, i'm working on it when I can. I really can't ride much so, I am having my friend work him.


----------



## NdAppy

In all honesty I probably would hold off on riding him until you get his weight up.


----------



## beauforever23

He's under muscled, and that fat needs to be turned into muscle. I honestly don't know what she is doing with him. I don't know if he's being ridden, I just know he's being worked. I am only down there to feed him and that's it. 

I just know he's being worked. Plus, I don't think he's that bad that he can't be ridden. Than again I don't know.


----------



## WickedNag

Only read the first post but I think he looks underweight. I would start getting him fed up before I used any 
calories exercising him.


----------



## Chiilaa

Beau I don't want to add to this thread and get you upset again. I just wanted to note, that your beautiful boy has lost a bit of weight since the other photos that you have posted. Don't worry, I know you are doing everything you can to bring his weight back up, kudos to you. However, where he has lost his weight is along his spine, so your saddle might not be a great fit at the moment. I would ask your friend to hold off on the riding for a while, because without the layer of muscle and fat to protect it, his back could be damaged.


----------



## beauforever23

WickedNag said:


> Only read the first post but I think he looks underweight. I would start getting him fed up before I used any
> calories exercising him.


we are working on that now, he doesn't get worked hard anyway, just enough to build muscle up. 



Chiilaa said:


> Beau I don't want to add to this thread and get you upset again. I just wanted to note, that your beautiful boy has lost a bit of weight since the other photos that you have posted. Don't worry, I know you are doing everything you can to bring his weight back up, kudos to you. However, where he has lost his weight is along his spine, so your saddle might not be a great fit at the moment. I would ask your friend to hold off on the riding for a while, because without the layer of muscle and fat to protect it, his back could be damaged.



I've been upset all morning, so today I'm bound to be defensive, sorry to anyone in advance. I know he has lost weight since the last group of photos that I posted. He was in a bad barn and he ONLY just got back to the barn I have him at now on the 1st so, yes he has a little ways to go. 

Actually, if I hop on him bareback he's still pretty comfortable so, as bad as his spine looks I don't think it is because, I can sit on him and it doesn't hurt me. My saddle is actually, made to fit him. I can also fit two fingers under the saddle if i put weight on the stirrup, even when you sit in the saddle you can fit like two or three fingers. 

I saw my friend this morning actually, she isn't riding him, she is lunging him, not riding him. She won't start riding him until I give her the go, which at this point probably won't be until next week or so.


----------



## crimsonsky

NdAppy said:


> In all honesty I probably would hold off on riding him until you get his weight up.


i fully agree with this. it's not worth risking further pain/damage/issues by riding the horse when he doesn't have the proper skeletal support (muscle/fat/weight) in place.


----------



## beauforever23

crimsonsky said:


> i fully agree with this. it's not worth risking further pain/damage/issues by riding the horse when he doesn't have the proper skeletal support (muscle/fat/weight) in place.


Read my post above yours.... He's really not being ridden, my friend is lunging him.... I have to comment on the "doesn't have the proper skeletal support (muscle/fat/weight) in place" well, honestly how is he supposed to get the muscle if he can't be worked. 

Honestly, it's not going to kill him to be in a small, tiny amount of work. Sorry, but that's the ONLY way that the muscle is going to be put on. Like said previously, even when ridden he shows no pain. Plus, he's not that bad, I mean yes he needs weight and muscle but, he's not that bad that he can't be ridden if we choose to ride him.


----------



## apachiedragon

I too am curious how he is supposed to build up any muscle without being worked? At a farm where he had hundreds of acres and a herd to roam with, certainly. But at a small facility, in a small paddock, standing in one spot eating hay, the only exercise he will get is what is given to him. (I am supposing this is how the barn is, I don't know) But I have seen many threads suggesting the same thing, and I don't see how it can be done. You certainly can't just WISH the muscle on him. I'm not trying to be argumentative, it just seems like contradicting advice.


----------



## beauforever23

apachiedragon said:


> I too am curious how he is supposed to build up any muscle without being worked? At a farm where he had hundreds of acres and a herd to roam with, certainly. But at a small facility, in a small paddock, standing in one spot eating hay, the only exercise he will get is what is given to him. (I am supposing this is how the barn is, I don't know) But I have seen many threads suggesting the same thing, and I don't see how it can be done. You certainly can't just WISH the muscle on him. I'm not trying to be argumentative, it just seems like contradicting advice.


Well, I am at a real small facility. He's in his stall all night and outside all day eating hay but, saying I need to build muscle and than telling me I shouldn't ride him or work him until he has weight on? 

Yes, I know I need to throw weight on him but, you want me to just let him sit there for 4 to 6 weeks and not work him and than when I post another thread saying "oh he reared" or "oh he doesn't want to move" than it's going to be brought to my attention that it was my fault that I left him there for 4 to 6 weeks, when in fact i was told that I need to put the weight on him before putting him in work. 

Honestly, is he really that bad of weight that he looks like he can't be ridden? I don't think so, I mean he needs weight and I'm working on it but, to build the muscle, he can't just sit there in a paddock all day. Plus, I do NOT want him having a hay belly. 

Honestly, thank you apachie for bringing this up because, I do think it needed to be brought up and brought to attention. muscle won't just magically appear on the horse. 

If he's ridden, he shows no signs of pain, i have said numerous times on this thread that even my vet told me that he should be in walk, trot. No ear pinning, no bucking, no rearing(which was a previous problem with my horse). I see no reason to put a saddle or rider on his back. If he didn't want to, I wouldn't make him, than again all my friend is doing is lunging him and giving him lunging sessions. Sorry but, it's not going to kill him and yeah he might burn the calories but, it's not like they won't be put right back on. 

Thank you for bringing that to attention Apachie.


----------



## beauforever23

I'm not trying to start a problem here, trust me at this point the last thing I am looking for is a problem to start but, it is something that had to brought to attention.


----------



## Golden Horse

You can do a lot of conditioning work without actually riding, I don't think anyone said he should sit. I would be working on building up his top line, it will make it easier for him to then do well in his ridden work.

Lunging, in hand work, working over poles, hill work, etc. Are all good for that.


----------



## beauforever23

Golden Horse said:


> You can do a lot of conditioning work without actually riding, I don't think anyone said he should sit. I would be working on building up his top line, it will make it easier for him to then do well in his ridden work.
> 
> Lunging, in hand work, working over poles, hill work, etc. Are all good for that.


No, don't get me wrong, I didn't say anyone said he should just sit. I am just trying to make a point, that seriously needed to be addressed. 

He's only doing lunge work except for today, I threw the saddle on his back and took him out on trail for a couple of minutes to work him on the hills at a walk of course because, with my condition I can't do much anyway. Other than that he is doing walk, trot work on the lunge line. 

I don't have any hills at my barn though so, the ONLY way I can do that is by taking him out on trail, and again I'm in no condition right now to walk him onto the trail and all the way up to where the hills are so, I have to throw a saddle on his back to do so, which I did today for a couple of minutes.


----------



## DunOverIt

Good luck. I hope he gets sorted out soon. It seems like you really love him.


----------



## apachiedragon

That's true about the in-hand working being great for him, but a couple people did suggest that he not be worked at all until he added weight, so as not to "burn needed calories". I don't see a dangerously thin horse that should not be worked here though, I see a horse that, yes, needs some pounds, and needs to be worked to build up muscle, as he has none. 

He is not dangerously thin, as some posters have implied. This is the problem with internet advice. This thread alone has run the gamut from "he is too too thin, he needs nothing but food", to "he's thin, but mostly needs muscle", to "he isn't thin at all, just out of shape". So it really comes down to who you want to believe, or who is the most knowledgeable. And since none of us know each other, none of us are about to make that decision sensibly. 

Weight is such a hot button anyway with many people. I rode for years at a barn in which every horse was morbidly obese, and therefore for a long time believed that it was the healthy thing to see. It isn't. In fact, it is worse for a horse to be overweight than underweight. Unfortunately, our society is so afraid of people claiming their horses are too thin, that they tend to keep them too fat. Honestly, when is the last time you heard of someone calling animal control on someone for OVER feeding their horse? Even though overfeeding can lead to joint problems, heart problems, digestive problems and the list goes on.

I do believe, beau, that you've gotten some good nutritional advice to help him gain weight, and ideas with which to work to help start muscling him up. But it isn't going to happen overnight. I'm sure though, if you stick to it, you will see results!


----------



## beauforever23

DunOverIt said:


> Good luck. I hope he gets sorted out soon. It seems like you really love him.


Thanks, I do love him and willing to do anything for this horse because, honestly I have seen a lot of horses cases and I do not want him becoming anything like them. 



apachiedragon said:


> That's true about the in-hand working being great for him, but a couple people did suggest that he not be worked at all until he added weight, so as not to "burn needed calories". I don't see a dangerously thin horse that should not be worked here though, I see a horse that, yes, needs some pounds, and needs to be worked to build up muscle, as he has none.
> 
> He is not dangerously thin, as some posters have implied. This is the problem with internet advice. This thread alone has run the gamut from "he is too too thin, he needs nothing but food", to "he's thin, but mostly needs muscle", to "he isn't thin at all, just out of shape". So it really comes down to who you want to believe, or who is the most knowledgeable. And since none of us know each other, none of us are about to make that decision sensibly.
> 
> Weight is such a hot button anyway with many people. I rode for years at a barn in which every horse was morbidly obese, and therefore for a long time believed that it was the healthy thing to see. It isn't. In fact, it is worse for a horse to be overweight than underweight. Unfortunately, our society is so afraid of people claiming their horses are too thin, that they tend to keep them too fat. Honestly, when is the last time you heard of someone calling animal control on someone for OVER feeding their horse? Even though overfeeding can lead to joint problems, heart problems, digestive problems and the list goes on.
> 
> I do believe, beau, that you've gotten some good nutritional advice to help him gain weight, and ideas with which to work to help start muscling him up. But it isn't going to happen overnight. I'm sure though, if you stick to it, you will see results!


Yeah, he definitely needs some pounds I will agree and I do believe that with a couple of pounds(50-100) and muscle he would look like an awesome horse, he definitely was before we moved to the crap barn and honestly I blame the BO of that crap barn for my horse ending up like this. 

Thanks, I have him on vegetable oil which, he seems to absolutely hate this morning but, I hope he eats it, if not I am going to try and go a different route. Maybe cool calories if the vegetable oil doesn't work out because, he built some pretty nice weight when he was on Cool Cal.


----------



## NdAppy

Golden Horse said:


> You can do a lot of conditioning work without actually riding, I don't think anyone said he should sit. I would be working on building up his top line, it will make it easier for him to then do well in his ridden work.
> 
> Lunging, in hand work, working over poles, hill work, etc. Are all good for that.


This. 

If your already having issues with him, you need to do more ground work as it is. Working over ground polls and hill work will build muscle. You do not have to ride a horse to bring it into better condition.


----------



## NdAppy

Just read the other post where you said you don't have easy access to hills for hillwork.

I would work on in hand, over ground polls, etc., that you are not going to have to travel to get to. Getting him to use himself correctly from the ground _will_ help him build that topline.


----------



## beauforever23

NdAppy said:


> This.
> 
> If your already having issues with him, you need to do more ground work as it is. Working over ground polls and hill work will build muscle. You do not have to ride a horse to bring it into better condition.


 I never said I was already having problems with him. Where exactly did I say that?. I know that you don't have to ride a horse to bring a horse into better condition. 

If I wanted to do hill work, I have NO hills in my arena nor do we have hills on the property so, i have to go off property into the trails and I cannot walk him all the way down to the trails and than walking him all the way over to where the hills are in the trail system. In that case I put a saddle on him and ride him down there.


----------



## beauforever23

NdAppy said:


> Just read the other post where you said you don't have easy access to hills for hillwork.
> 
> I would work on in hand, over ground polls, etc., that you are not going to have to travel to get to. Getting him to use himself correctly from the ground _will_ help him build that topline.


:evil: I hate repeating myself. I really do. Right about now his progress is still in hand. He has not started over ground poles yet, my friend has not worked with him, other than now so, she does not feel comfortable just yet. I can't work with him because, of my severe chest pain so, at this point we are somewhat at a standstill.


----------



## crimsonsky

beauforever23 said:


> Read my post above yours.... He's really not being ridden, my friend is lunging him.... I have to comment on the "doesn't have the proper skeletal support (muscle/fat/weight) in place" well, honestly how is he supposed to get the muscle if he can't be worked.
> 
> Honestly, it's not going to kill him to be in a small, tiny amount of work. Sorry, but that's the ONLY way that the muscle is going to be put on. Like said previously, even when ridden he shows no pain. Plus, he's not that bad, I mean yes he needs weight and muscle but, he's not that bad that he can't be ridden if we choose to ride him.


i never said don't lunge him or turn him out, etc. i solely said *I* wouldn't ride him in his current state/condition. lunge work with side reins, if done/used properly, will help his muscles develop more but he DOES need more weight (both fat and muscle) before he's going to be in a good place to be ridden. 

how is he managed daily? is he in a stall or a paddock or pasture? if he's allowed to move around at his own pace and move as much as possible that will help him as well. imo, the most important thing for this horse right now before thinking about riding and everything else is to find the best diet regimen for him so that he can get to and maintain a healthy weight.


----------



## crimsonsky

sorry - i see you address some of the things i just posted about. either way - you're going to do whatever you want to do with your horse so...


----------



## beauforever23

crimsonsky said:


> i never said don't lunge him or turn him out, etc. i solely said *I* wouldn't ride him in his current state/condition. lunge work with side reins, if done/used properly, will help his muscles develop more but he DOES need more weight (both fat and muscle) before he's going to be in a good place to be ridden.
> 
> how is he managed daily? is he in a stall or a paddock or pasture? if he's allowed to move around at his own pace and move as much as possible that will help him as well. imo, the most important thing for this horse right now before thinking about riding and everything else is to find the best diet regimen for him so that he can get to and maintain a healthy weight.


I don't think he's terribly bad that he couldn't be ridden, that's all I am saying, once again the only time I have been able to ride him was today and I brought him out on trail to do hills. I know he needs more weight but, he's not that skinny that he can't have a saddle nor rider on his back. 

He has his own paddock but, no pasture that is unless I decide to bring him to the front of the barn and graze but, other than that no he has no pasture. He's in a paddock during the day(if it's nice out) and he's in his stall during the night. 

His schedule is as follows
Morning-
goes out into paddock 
gets hay 
gets his grain w. vegetable oil and his water
stays out till 5:30/6 

Night-
goes into ring, gets to roll around, w/e he wants for a couple of mins. 
he gets worked about 15-30 mins by my friend and walks out before feeding
goes into stall 
gets hay 
gets his grain w. vegetable oil & water.
stays in stall till about 7:30/8 in the morning and repeat for morning. 

Once again right now the best thing IMO for my horse is to get him working and build up that muscle now. I'm not going to let him sit in his paddock all day and have him do nothing at all because, all that pent up energy will lead him to start the rearing problem again and he'll have pent up energy that he doesn't need. 

He gets VERY stressed out when he's cooped up in his paddock or stall all day and it's really not a pretty sight. His paddock is NOT a big paddock it's probably a little bit bigger than a stall but, not by much so, he really doesn't have a lot of room. 

I am doing what's in best intrest for the horse....


----------



## Golden Horse

I don't have any hills around here either, so when I was trying to get Ace fit enough to ride I was lunging her up and down the roadside ditches, it worked really well for her


----------



## WickedNag

beauforever23 said:


> If he's ridden, he shows no signs of pain,


And maybe he just has a high pain tolerance. Bought a horse for my daughter once, when it got here I immediately had the farrier out due to his feet. He was rotated so bad that two weeks after the owner took him back (came with a guarantee) he blew out his soles and had to be put down. He never took a lame step and never acted like he was in pain. 

I know my own horses are overweight and that they need to start getting out and getting in shape but personally I would NEVER ride one that looked like yours. I would want weight on him first and than worry about getting the muscle developed. 

I seriously would put some lbs on your horse ....Everything is thin, even his neck.


----------



## WickedNag

Just wanted to say I see you are having chest pains and seeing a cardiologist tomorrow. Hoping you get good news. I have heart problems and it makes working with horses hard. Thank goodness for my family and friends who will get and keep my boy in shape!


----------



## beauforever23

Golden Horse said:


> I don't have any hills around here either, so when I was trying to get Ace fit enough to ride I was lunging her up and down the roadside ditches, it worked really well for her


all our roads have no ditches in them so, I really like that idea but, it really doesn't work around here sadly. Good idea though!



WickedNag said:


> And maybe he just has a high pain tolerance. Bought a horse for my daughter once, when it got here I immediately had the farrier out due to his feet. He was rotated so bad that two weeks after the owner took him back (came with a guarantee) he blew out his soles and had to be put down. He never took a lame step and never acted like he was in pain.
> 
> I know my own horses are overweight and that they need to start getting out and getting in shape but personally I would NEVER ride one that looked like yours. I would want weight on him first and than worry about getting the muscle developed.
> 
> I seriously would put some lbs on your horse ....Everything is thin, even his neck.


Well, we've had a vet check for lameness, pain, etc... we've done everything from a flexion test on him... I know I spelt that wrong, sorry i've been up since 1am and haven't gotten much sleep... 

We actually had the vet lunge him and put weight on his back and everything went fine. My vet also practiced in chiro so, we have already checked for everything. Trust me I am well aware that he needs weight, as you've already seen by my whole chest pain issue. It's really not easy to deal with. I can barely walk without having chest pain, let alone deal with my horse right now. 

Although, we haven't ridden him. Today I took him up at a walk on the trails and got him going up and down hills but, other than today he really hasn't been ridden, he's being lunged by my friend...

As, for me I had to reschedule the cardiologist for Thursday of this week because I wasn't able to go that day I had to so, I never got any results, the doctor marked on the referral as STAT meaning I should get them back the minute they hear something. The EKG didn't come back all that well though. Which makes me nervous.


----------



## NdAppy

beauforever23 said:


> I never said I was already having problems with him. Where exactly did I say that?. I know that you don't have to ride a horse to bring a horse into better condition.
> 
> If I wanted to do hill work, I have NO hills in my arena nor do we have hills on the property so, i have to go off property into the trails and I cannot walk him all the way down to the trails and than walking him all the way over to where the hills are in the trail system. In that case I put a saddle on him and ride him down there.


Per this post and the following one (the second you posted _after questioning why IU saying you were having issues with him_) You specifically say he rears. _That_ is a big respect issue IMO. I bolded what I am talking about.



beauforever23 said:


> ...
> 
> *Yes, I know I need to throw weight on him but, you want me to just let him sit there for 4 to 6 weeks and not work him and than when I post another thread saying "oh he reared" or "oh he doesn't want to move" than it's going to be brought to my attention that it was my fault that I left him there for 4 to 6 weeks, when in fact i was told that I need to put the weight on him before putting him in work. *
> ....





beauforever23 said:


> ...
> Once again right now the best thing IMO for my horse is to get him working and build up that muscle now. I'm not going to let him sit in his paddock all day and have him do nothing at all because, all that pent up energy will *lead him to start the rearing problem again* and he'll have pent up energy that he doesn't need.
> ...





and to this - 


beauforever23 said:


> :evil: I hate repeating myself. I really do. Right about now his progress is still in hand. He has not started over ground poles yet, my friend has not worked with him, other than now so, she does not feel comfortable just yet. I can't work with him because, of my severe chest pain so, at this point we are somewhat at a standstill.


You need to step back and actually read what is being written instead of trying to read between the lines. You said earlier that your friend is lunging him. Have your friend lunge him over ground poles. Have your friend work him in hand. 

A saddle on his back with him in the shape and seriously lacking a topline is only going to cause him problems, if not apparent now, they will be later. What is the problem with leaving off on the riding and just enjoying him on the ground right now? You seem to not want to do that.


----------



## thealabamaredhead

i've seen corn oil work well for adding weight.


----------



## Xela

Personally your having health issues and so is he. I would let him just be a horse, gain some weight back till you get yourself sorted out. otherwise, lunge work/long line work.


----------



## beauforever23

NdAppy said:


> Per this post and the following one (the second you posted _after questioning why IU saying you were having issues with him_) You specifically say he rears. _That_ is a big respect issue IMO. I bolded what I am talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and to this -
> 
> 
> You need to step back and actually read what is being written instead of trying to read between the lines. You said earlier that your friend is lunging him. Have your friend lunge him over ground poles. Have your friend work him in hand.
> 
> A saddle on his back with him in the shape and seriously lacking a topline is only going to cause him problems, if not apparent now, they will be later. What is the problem with leaving off on the riding and just enjoying him on the ground right now? You seem to not want to do that.



I said he used to have a rearing problem. Now, i'm not the one reading between the lines. I do read what is being written. Yes, my friend iunging him but, she is NOT ready to lunge him over ground poles because, she has never worked with him before and does not know what he would do. I am not going to force something on her. 

There is no problem leaving off the riding. You need to stop being so inconsiderate because, I have said numerous times in this friggen thread that he is being lunged *not ridden*

I was pretty sure I made myself crystal clear. If i have to repeat myself again I won't write in this thread again. 






Xela said:


> Personally your having health issues and so is he. I would let him just be a horse, gain some weight back till you get yourself sorted out. otherwise, lunge work/long line work.


Once again, he's only doing lunge work anyway.


----------



## MsBHavin

beauforever23 said:


> He's only doing lunge work except for today, I threw the saddle on his back and took him out on trail for a couple of minutes to work him on the hills at a walk of course because,




so are you riding him or not?


----------



## NdAppy

beauforever23 said:


> ...
> There is no problem leaving off the riding. You need to stop being so inconsiderate because, I have said numerous times in this friggen thread that he is being lunged *not ridden...*



Per this - 


beauforever23 said:


> No, don't get me wrong, I didn't say anyone said he should just sit. I am just trying to make a point, that seriously needed to be addressed.
> 
> He's only doing lunge work except for today, *I threw the saddle on his back and took him out on trail* for a couple of minutes to work him on the hills at a walk of course because, with my condition I can't do much anyway. Other than that he is doing walk, trot work on the lunge line.
> 
> I don't have any hills at my barn though so, the ONLY way I can do that is by taking him out on trail, and again I'm in no condition right now to walk him onto the trail and all the way up to where the hills are so, I have to throw a saddle on his back to do so, which I did today for a couple of minutes.


And are you not riding him in this thread wanting a critque? And this was from 6 days ago, posted three days before this weight thread we are currently in. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/flatwork-critique-tear-me-apart-80455/


Which is it? Your riding him or not riding him?


----------



## AlexS

Beau chill out. You seem to get very upset quickly. 

The idea behind not working an underweight horse is that they burn calories as they work, so any calories they are gaining through extra or better feed or hay is being burnt off. So it is more ideal to get them fatter first and then work them to turn it into muscle.


----------



## beauforever23

MsBHavin said:


> so are you riding him or not?


No, not since yesterday when I took him on trail. That's why I am saying he's not being ridden other than that little trail I took him on yesterday. 




NdAppy said:


> Per this -
> 
> 
> And are you not riding him in this thread wanting a critque? And this was from 6 days ago, posted three days before this weight thread we are currently in. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/flatwork-critique-tear-me-apart-80455/
> 
> 
> Which is it? Your riding him or not riding him?


Yeah I was riding him about 6 days ago. That was 6 days ago and since than I have taken him out on a walk trail and I shouldn't have but, I did to get him working on hill work. 




AlexS said:


> Beau chill out. You seem to get very upset quickly.
> 
> The idea behind not working an underweight horse is that they burn calories as they work, so any calories they are gaining through extra or better feed or hay is being burnt off. So it is more ideal to get them fatter first and then work them to turn it into muscle.


Yeah, I get mad very quickly, I am a big hot head and sometimes I don't think when I write.


----------



## rosie1

Wow just finished reading this thread (took a half an hourish!) OP I don't have any advice for you on your horse I believe enough has been said on that matter, however I do want to say I've seen you post when your calm on this thread and you act much more reasonably and think about the things people are saying. Just remember this is a computer if you're having a bad day don't log on or if a comment makes you upset sign off for awhile until you can think a little more subjectively. We all just want to help 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## beauforever23

Yeah, I know but, when I'm mad I don't think sign off and come back on. I've had just about enough anyway, so if anyone wants to write on this thread, I am not going to answer back so, all of you can have this whole conversation yourselves. I have enough to deal with. 

Thanks.


----------



## WickedNag

beauforever23 said:


> Yeah, I know but, when I'm mad I don't think sign off and come back on. I've had just about enough anyway, so if anyone wants to write on this thread, I am not going to answer back so, all of you can have this whole conversation yourselves. I have enough to deal with.
> 
> Thanks.



But your story is always changing. In one post no hills, than you take him on the trails to hills. You keep backing yourself into corners. To be honest with you I wonder about the cardiologist thing too. I know it takes time to get into see a heart doctor. You are not going to cancel an appointment and be able to change it to one day later. Especially if you have something they are worried about. I wanted to call my sister in law (registered nurse) for advice when I first found out about my heart problems they wouldn't even let me off the phone to call her. I needed an appointment first.


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## Sarahandlola

Just gotta say even if the horse does not seem to be in pain now he will be over time if he is ridden because his back shape would have changed a lot and the saddle will not fit anymore. Unless you have changeable gullets I don't think you should ride him until his topline is better or he will be in pain in the long run...It took about 2 months before my horse acted like she was in pain from a saddle that did not fit.


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## thealabamaredhead

In the end it's her horse, she can do what she wants. i've noticed some people are quick to be mean on this forum. just chill everyone.


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## apachiedragon

SarahandLola, the OP has stated time and again that she is not riding him anymore right now, due to both health issues AND because of what has been posted in this thread. 

She seems to have taken what everyone has said to heart, can we please just stop badgering her and take the fact that she is trying to help her horse now and move on?


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## Sarahandlola

I know she said she was not riding him but she said her friend will be in a week and she sees no harm in riding him now if she could...

I ws not badgering I was trying to help so her horse does not end up with a bad back.


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## apachiedragon

Sorry for the confusion, that second part wasn't directed at you, SarahandLola. 

I meant everyone is badgering her NOW, after she'd said many times that she will work on his diet and groundwork. (And I think that she said later in the thread that her friend would just be doing groundwork for now, after everyone told her off. Or maybe that's just how I read it.) I think that should be good enough. Obviously beating her about the head with it won't help, if fact, if it were me personally, I'd be angry enough by now to ignore what everyone has said. Just be glad that she is listening. 

I'm only saying, I think she gets the point by now...


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## Alwaysbehind

Hey, at least he is not trying to kill her anymore and she is not having to hire her way expensive over the top trainer at some crazy per day price. :wink:




HowClever said:


> *sigh* I wish I had one of these magical cameras that takes weight off in photos!
> 
> If that horse is a 7 then mine must be off the scale.


Both these comments made me laugh.
I agree with both. I want that camera.
And I am scared at what number mine would be at if this horse is even a 5.
Cringe.




smrobs said:


> It never fails. Someone asks for a weight critique then gets all defensive and snarky when people start telling them things they don't want to hear.
> 
> If you cannot accept critique gracefully without getting bratty about it, then perhaps you shouldn't ask for critiques.


This OP gets snarky about anything you post that does not tell her how wonderful she is. 



beauforever23 said:


> nothing physically wrong with him. he's just a hard keeper. you need to read my post he's on free choice hay and it is high quality.


There are lots of what people would call hard keepers in the world. It is no excuse for them to look like this, though.




beauforever23 said:


> Quick question. Do we not know how to read or are you guys passing what I say up?


You have admitted to changing your answer twice in this thread already. How dare you get snarky with people who are asking basic questions and trying to help.

PS - if you are giving true facts one does not mess up on what brand of feed they are giving and other such details when questioned.

I agree with the posters who are saying that your saddle is not likely to fit this horse in this condition.


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## CustomLegacy

I have a reining horse, when we first got him, he looked like your horse. in the morning we feed him 1 scoop of grain and two flakes of hay, and some minerals. and for dinner we give him the same, but without minerals. now he a fit man


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## CJ82Sky

what kind of grain are you feeding? i'd look for a moderate protein high fat feed such as sentinel by blue seal - that will help him add weight without needing tons of supplements. for muscle gain i am a huge fan of fat cat if a horse will be in trot work mult days a week as that can help build muscle without making the horse overly hot.

longe work can also help build muscles with the horse not having to work on balance with the rider as well - just be sure not to overuse side reins as they can do more harm than good if not used properly.


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## CJ82Sky

Golden Horse said:


> :think::?: are you talking about his Henneke score? I really would struggle to see the first pics you posted as a 7, no way, I would say more like a 4 than a 7. He looks like he needs both weight and muscle. He needs plenty of good quality to put on more flesh, and then lots of conditioning work to turn that flesh into muscle.
> 
> Hopefully it won't be to long until we get some warmer weather and some green grass, it makes it a lot easier to feed and exercise.


yeah henneke scale 4-6 is ideal (depending on breed and discipline) this had me confused too. i'd say he's a 4.


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## CJ82Sky

beauforever23 said:


> well, he's not emaciated, he's not very thin, he's not thin, he's moderately fleshy. So he's a 6. I see this horse EVERYDAY. I know what he looks like in person versus, picture.


fyi fleshy means slightly overweight. 5 is considered "ideal" for the "average" horse.

he is a 4. i work in rescue, and been to court over the henneke scale. he's a 4. that's not a bad thing as encurance horses are ideal at 4 - 5. so does he need some weight? yes, some. if he needs to put on weight, he's not a 5, or a 6, or a 7.


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## WickedNag

CJ82Sky said:


> fyi fleshy means slightly overweight. 5 is considered "ideal" for the "average" horse.
> 
> he is a 4. i work in rescue, and been to court over the henneke scale. he's a 4. that's not a bad thing as encurance horses are ideal at 4 - 5. so does he need some weight? yes, some. if he needs to put on weight, he's not a 5, or a 6, or a 7.


And I showed pictures of him to the president of our saddle club and the owner of a local horse rescue. They both put him at a 3. Guess everyone sees him differently. Personally I would have been embarrassed to put photos of my horse up that looked like that unless it was a rescue horse. Not one that I have owned a year.


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## CJ82Sky

i should have read all this before replying... but im sorry i gave up. i will still say what i see wrong here:

he should be getting at LEAST 2x day grain if not 3 or more. more frequent smaller meals are easier to digest and will help put weight on faster.

he should be on a moderate protein (10% - 12% imo) feed that is HIGH FAT (10%+) such as sentinel by blue seal as fat will put on the weight faster.

if he is in trot work 3+ days a week and needs assistance with muscle you can add a weight/muscle builder. i've personally had the best success with vapco's fat cat, but there are other brands out there as well.

you mentioned he moved barns recently. in addition he currently only gets grain once a day - and a rather large amount at that. prior he was not getting fed enough/regularly. you also said he's a hard keeper. all these can contribute to equine ulcers. he should imo be on an ulcer supp and possibly a pre/pro biotic combo to help him digest and absorb and utilize the food in his diet.

and finally back to the henneke system. 4 is ideal for a race horse, many endurance horses, etc. 5 is the "ideal" for the "average" horse. drafts and qhs tend to lean towards 6 as their ideal. there will be some variations by discipline. for the most part you don't want an eventer or jumper or racer carrying around extra weight so a 6 is too much. nor do you want a driving horse or pleasure horse on the lean side, so a 4 is too little. you want your halter horse at no more than a 6 because you want MUSCLE not FAT. if it's fat and the horse is pushing a 7, that's too heavy. if your vet says your horse needs ANY weight, he is less than a 6. a horse at 6 is the HIGHEST end of what is considered acceptable from a veterinary AND LEGAL perspective. an overweight horse is just as unhealthy as an underweight one.

hopefully you can take some of the wonderful advice everyone took the time to share here and put it to good use for the benefit of your horse. best of luck to you.


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## NdAppy

CJ I wouldn't say he is a 4. I would say he is a 3. He has a very prominent tail head in the pictures. Put that with the other areas lacking, and I would put him at a 3 no problem. 

There is a world of difference between and endurance horse's 4 and a unworked and under muscled horse's 4...


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## CJ82Sky

NdAppy said:


> CJ I wouldn't say he is a 4. I would say he is a 3. He has a very prominent tail head in the pictures. Put that with the other areas lacking, and I would put him at a 3 no problem.
> 
> There is a world of difference between and endurance horse's 4 and a unworked and under muscled horse's 4...


oh very true re: endurance 4 v. unworked 4. without actually palpating the horse, it's hard to nail down his body score bc in some pics he looks like a 3, in others more like a 4. it's also possible for a horse to be between the two - where his hind end is a 3, but his front end is closer to a 4. in those case we'll estimate a 3.5. in the later pics she posted of him he looks like an unfit 4 to me. in the earlier ones a 3. it's really hard to tell via the internet however he is NOT a 5 or better. or even a 4.5. the tricky part to the Hscale is that without palpation you can't tell how prominent parts are and how much is confo. i had a horse with shark fin withers (literally a FULL hand higher than his back and he was not at all swaybacked). his withers and top of his shoulder always looked like a 3. even if the rest of him was fat and saggy in his old age lol. but you couldn't tell for sure without palpation if he was fat, or bloated, etc.

i'll meet you in the middle at a 3.5 haha!


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## NdAppy

lol I wasn't even going to touch on the withers. He looks like one that _would_ have very prominant withers regardless of whether he was in good weight or overweight.  I'm good with 3.5. He's is not a for sure 3 or a for sure 4. 3.5 is a good number.


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## CJ82Sky

NdAppy said:


> lol I wasn't even going to touch on the withers. He looks like one that _would_ have very prominant withers regardless of whether he was in good weight or overweight.  I'm good with 3.5. He's is not a for sure 3 or a for sure 4. 3.5 is a good number.


lol here's my late eventer in his late 20s. in this pic he had been retired to very light work (as in get on and hack to keep him happy once in a while) and also had lymes. gives you a good idea of his withers though LOL!


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## beauforever23

WickedNag said:


> But your story is always changing. In one post no hills, than you take him on the trails to hills. You keep backing yourself into corners. To be honest with you I wonder about the cardiologist thing too. I know it takes time to get into see a heart doctor. You are not going to cancel an appointment and be able to change it to one day later. Especially if you have something they are worried about. I wanted to call my sister in law (registered nurse) for advice when I first found out about my heart problems they wouldn't even let me off the phone to call her. I needed an appointment first.



My story hasn't changed, let's get that straight. I said there are no hills on the barns property but, there is on trail HENCE why I took him on trail for hill work. Yes, I do have a cardiologist appointment, I made an appointment and I wasn't able to go in that day, so I called up for another appointment and they had an appointment open for thursday morning or afternoon, forgot what time but, I would have to look in my book to remind myself of the time. 

Heart problems are NOT taken lightly especially for a 20 year old and I have a referral from the doctor and the doctor wants the results back ASAP (same day if possible) so yes I got in fast. So, yes I changed it. 




Sarahandlola said:


> Just gotta say even if the horse does not seem to be in pain now he will be over time if he is ridden because his back shape would have changed a lot and the saddle will not fit anymore. Unless you have changeable gullets I don't think you should ride him until his topline is better or he will be in pain in the long run...It took about 2 months before my horse acted like she was in pain from a saddle that did not fit.


Sarahandlola. I said in a previous post that I had a vet out, he did a pain test, we checked if the saddle fit, he even put weight on the horses back. The saddle is made to fit him. He's NOT ridden other than yesterday... Once AGAIN he's working on lunge work. 





Alwaysbehind said:


> Hey, at least he is not trying to kill her anymore and she is not having to hire her way expensive over the top trainer at some crazy per day price. :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> Both these comments made me laugh.
> I agree with both. I want that camera.
> And I am scared at what number mine would be at if this horse is even a 5.
> Cringe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This OP gets snarky about anything you post that does not tell her how wonderful she is.
> 
> 
> There are lots of what people would call hard keepers in the world. It is no excuse for them to look like this, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have admitted to changing your answer twice in this thread already. How dare you get snarky with people who are asking basic questions and trying to help.
> 
> PS - if you are giving true facts one does not mess up on what brand of feed they are giving and other such details when questioned.
> 
> I agree with the posters who are saying that your saddle is not likely to fit this horse in this condition.


Yeah, well a lot of people asked for it in here. I never said anyone wasn't trying to help, so get your facts straight!!!! I messed up the brand of feed because, I wasn't thinking straight, I was on the phone at the same time, people make mistakes, end of story!!!

The saddle fits him in this condition and when he's in a nice condition. I haven't changed my story other than when I made a mistake about the feed.


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## beauforever23

CJ he gets grain 2x a day. Might be moving it up to 3. I don't know who said it but, he's not ridden, I didn't say my horse was being ridden by my friend either.


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## Alwaysbehind

You changed your story on the hay, and there was one other thing too (not willing to scroll back and find it).

Maybe you should not be on the phone while you are posting so you do not have to change the information when it is questioned.


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## WickedNag

beauforever23 said:


> alright, good news for my horse.. he'll be going to my trainers till March 1st.. she has to clean up her paddocks and move around horses and he'll be going over there tomorrow until, i can get him to the self care facility... the reason why he can't go till march 1st is because, the stall door is broken and because of the money situation.. my trainer has been nice enough to take him in till than so, he'll be getting better care over there.
> 
> i have also been advised to call either the ASPCA or the town after everything calms down.





beauforever23 said:


> he's being fed... 2 1/2 scoops of grain in the morning and 4 flakes of hay... morning, night and afternoon... except for afternoon he gets 1 flake because he normally has hay left over from morning feed.
> 
> i've had him for awhile... he just came back out of a full board place who treated him like crap.... like i said previously he looks like absolute crap in pictures, in person he's really not as bad as the pictures make him seem


So my question now is where was he getting the bad care? From the first barn, the trainer's barn or the self care he is getting moved too?


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## beauforever23

He got the bad care at the old barn.... He's in the self care now and he's doing fine. Are you saying i'm taking bad care of him? take a step back.... yes, he moved to my trainers barn and when me and my trainer had a fight he moved again.. he's at a self care barn and doing fine now.


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## Chiilaa

AB the story changed three times on the hay. First page it was 3 flakes - morning afternoon and night. Then when someone said it should be free choice, that was amazingly what he was getting. Then 15 or so pages later beau posted her daily schedule which had him back to getting hay 2 or 3 times a day again.


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## gottatrot

CJ82Sky said:


> 4 is ideal for a race horse, many endurance horses, etc. 5 is the "ideal" for the "average" horse.


As an endurance rider I just want to clarify that even endurance horses that are a 4 are not there because we want them to be. Studies show that endurance horses that are a 5 or 6 complete endurance rides in much higher percentages than horses that are a 4 or less. You are almost guaranteed a completion if you can keep your horse at a higher body condition before a ride (barring lameness or injury). So the endurance horses you see that are a 4 are there because the conditioning outstripped the calorie intake temporarily and most owners are seriously trying to put the weight back on.


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## apachiedragon

Chiilaa, one point about the hay. If he is getting hay three times a day, and is getting enough that he is not left without any during that time, then it IS essentially free choice. When I do not have rounds, I feed mine two or three hay feedings, but they get enough that there is always hay in front of them, hence free choice. 

It would be nice if everyone would quit nitpicking the unimportant things apart, and focus on the fact that the OP is changing things to help her horse...


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## NdAppy

apachie it is hard to help though when the story changes consistently. It is hard to make any real suggestions when you do not know for sure what the baseline is to begin with.


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## MsBHavin

This is insane. Pick a story and stick to it.

You posted a thread, what? 6 days ago asking people to critique you riding him, then you dont ride him...only lunge...now you only rode him once a day ago... HE'S TOO THIN TO BE RIDDEN. and if your vet is ok with you riding him, then it's time for a better vet.


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## kitten_Val

I think this thread is just going in circles. Lots of great advices were given so it's up to OP to take them into consideration. I'm closing the thread.


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