# Arabians: Then and now



## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I totally agree with you, LoriF. This is a topic my Arabian horse friends and I have a lot these days. The new modern Arabian is a far cry from what they should be. Thankfully we still have some responsible breeders out there (especially the Arabian Sport Horse folks) who still breed for substance, good legs, and normal heads. Take a look at many of the top winners in the main halter ring these days, so many have terrible legs (too-long cannons, upright pasterns), skinny bodies, and seahorse heads. And it's not just main halter arena, too many of the performance horses are not even moving like Arabians. I still love Arabians, but now I only focus on the Sport Horse classes.

Arabians of yesteryear, still my ideal... first horse is Ibn Hanrah, second horse is Raffon.



























Had to include *Muscat, too...


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I don't think that the second pic is a fair representation of the breed as a whole. Yes, that is what is winning at places like Scottsdale (I use that as an example because it's literally two hours south of me). But, there are plenty of sturdy, old-type arabs out there.

My friend has two that are full siblings...
The mare:

The gelding:


Another friend had a heavily Bask-bred gelding who was 16hh and a phenomenal endurance horse:

Pictured here with Aires and another friend's arab gelding (the first friend's gelding is the brown in the back):


Oddly enough, you don't find many of the delicate "seahorse" arabs in my area, even though we're only two hours north of Scottsdale. Most of the arabs here you can really only tell they're arabs because of their slightly- to moderately-dished faces and their tippy ears.

I think it's unfair to judge a breed based on what fad is being bred for now. It's like judging all QHs based on halter horses with stick legs and WP horses who move like they're lame. Or judging all TWHs based on Big Lick practices. In addition, the "seahorse" arabs are only popular for halter classes (much like the stick-legged QHs bred for halter). If you look at ridden classes, you're much less likely to see that extreme dish.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I don't think that the second pic is a fair representation of the breed as a whole. Yes, that is what is winning at places like Scottsdale (I use that as an example because it's literally two hours south of me). But, there are plenty of sturdy, old-type arabs out there.
> 
> My friend has two that are full siblings...
> The mare:
> ...


You are right. I wasn't thinking that all modern arabians look like this. I guess the way I worded it would make it seen that way. But, like you said, it is what is winning in halter (being rewarded). Yes, the AQHA halter class horses are just as bad. I think that it's getting pretty close to being inhumane if not already. It's beyond me why people always have to go to such great extremes to get noticed. Why is this being rewarded? I think, especially in halter class, a very well functioning conformation should be rewarded not this twisted idea of what is pretty.
I actually see horses like this quite a bit.

BTW I've always loved Bask and Kemosabi


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

That pic of the 2nd horse is probably so photo shopped that you would have trouble recognizing the horse if you walked up to him.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> That pic of the 2nd horse is probably so photo shopped that you would have trouble recognizing the horse if you walked up to him.



I can't really argue over whether this photo is photoshopped or not or to what extent. I can say that I had an arabian horse standing right in front of me about six months ago that looked very similar to this horse other than a different color.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

They're definitely going for more extreme, no doubt about it. It's just when I see a horse whose face looks like someone took an ice cream scoop to it, and a blurry background, I've come to associate that with the photo shoppers. And a lot of the Arabian horse photographers are well known to shop the hades out of their pics. So, I see it, say Meh...and move on. I just take it as over stylized advertising.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Some lusitano breeders doing the same. Taking a breed characteristic and going to far with it.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

EWWW!!! i kinda have a thing for roman noses but that is a bit much!!!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Meh! Some how when humans get involved in the breeding process, we pretty well screw things right up!


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

I dislike seeing the more modern Arabians. But I also hate the posts where they compare it to a swan and say "I see no difference" >.>

Here are some pictures of some sires in my boy's pedigree.


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

I know QHs are starting to see a rising trend of the ranch horse classes which show cases what QHs _should_ be rather than what the have become. I wonder if we are going to start seeing a similar trend in Arab shows as people start realizing how ridiculous these trends are getting. :think:


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I think, as with anything, people get caught up in one little "perfect" trait [thigh-gap, anyone?] and they lose sight of function/purpose.

I'm just thankful that I've been lucky enough to be blessed with TWO chunky Arabs. One currently, one previously. 
My mare was rounder than my gelding, but lighter boned - more pony-like. My gelding has heavier bone, but is more athletically built - more "sport horse-y."
It goes back to their breeding though - my mare was heavily Polish bred, while my gelding is more evenly Polish and Crabbet.

My gelding -


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

http://www.horseforum.com/horses/photos/48edc6fecdcf8d9128dba0e540d62e49_full.jpg


Hombre in his halter heyday. Not the best picture of him, but 25 years later the only one I've uploaded. He was so well put together, moved like a dream, and had the kindest, most gentle personality. All the best of him he passed on to his get and grandget. 

I thought all Arabians were supposed to be like him.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> EWWW!!! i kinda have a thing for roman noses but that is a bit much!!!



I love the lusitano with their slightly convex head shape as well too. To me this is normal for a lusitano from the veiga lines.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I've only owned one Arabian, "Corporal." Do you suppose that "hard keeper" is one of those badly bred characteristics, as well as the exaggerated profile and bad feet? I'm interested in your thoughts. =D


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

This is an Arabian to me.....Pulque


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Corporal said:


> I've only owned one Arabian, "Corporal." Do you suppose that "hard keeper" is one of those badly bred characteristics, as well as the exaggerated profile and bad feet? I'm interested in your thoughts. =D


I have always had Arabians & never had a hard keeper or one that needed shoes.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

natisha said:


> I have always had Arabians & never had a hard keeper or one that needed shoes.


Corporal was always a hard keeper. Many TB's are hard keepers and I believe that it is genetic. So...I'm curious if that characteristic has been inadvertently bred into the modern Arabian, just like hip displasia has been bred into many purebred dogs because of inbreeding.


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## WendyJane (Jul 11, 2015)

Thank you for posting photos of "normal" Arabians! I know so many people love them but most of the photos I see are of the extremely dished faces and I really hate the look. 

Now that I know what they should look like I can appreciate them more.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Cross that second Arab picture with one of those exaggerated Lusitanos and you may get a normal looking head!! 

(Note: That's not something I'm actually advising anyone do...)

I do agree it's a shame when people take breeding for one particular trait to the extreme, especially to the detriment of the horses. On the other hand I do agree with the point that there are still PLENTY of GOOD arabs/QHs/tennessee walkers/what have you that are being bred for the right traits and reasons. I'm not an "Arabian person", but I can definitely appreciate a good one when I see it.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I became well acquainted as a teen with a breeder of Arabians. His stallion was sired by Ibn Hanrah. My own arab went back to Muscat. He had good bone and good solid feet big enough to support his body properly. Never had an issue with them. He was an "old soul", the kindest gentlest horse and so good with beginner kids.


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

My favorite arab Fire Mtn Outlaw. I rode him for about 3 years, loved his build!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

When you breed for looks, the tendency is to exaggerate. Look at the AQHA halter horse, the Arab Halter horse, the conformation Hunters, Conformation morgans.. and don't get me going on Saddlebreds. 

The same thing has happened with the American German Shepherd (nerve bags with over angulated hind legs to emphasize the 'flying trot' they never used herding sheep) or the Irish setter that has no idea what a bird is or how to hold steady on point.. or the Standard collie with the snipey head that looks nothing like the Old Lassie. 

If a breed is popular and all it is judged on is looks, that breed is going to be made into an extreme caricature of the original breed intentions. 

Thankfully some of these animals still work, and those breeders make sure their Arabs are versatile and trainable, their Quarterhorses work cattle and their breed retains the strengths for which it was bred for.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I agree that it looks very photoshopped. That has become an annoying trend lately. The super type-y faces are out there, but they're aren't as common as some would have others believe. Kinda like the newest stereotype that all Egyptian Arabians like exactly like what you posted (mostly due to the current popularity of the Desperado V line). Then, there are all those breeders who have been breeding for classic lines for decades and you get my boy (classically bred all the way back to the desert and very little "type-y-ness":

p.s. Ignore me - I don't halter often


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SEAmom said:


> I agree that it looks very photoshopped. That has become an annoying trend lately. The super type-y faces are out there, but they're aren't as common as some would have others believe. Kinda like the newest stereotype that all Egyptian Arabians like exactly like what you posted (mostly due to the current popularity of the Desperado V line). Then, there are all those breeders who have been breeding for classic lines for decades and you get my boy (classically bred all the way back to the desert and very little "type-y-ness":
> 
> p.s. Ignore me - I don't halter often




LOL! Your boy is TYPEY as all get out but he's not EXOTIC which is what they've been going for in the ring for quite some time now. And did you mean Thee Desperado for the Egyptians, not Desperado V (he's not even close to Egyptian)?


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> LOL! Your boy is TYPEY as all get out but he's not EXOTIC which is what they've been going for in the ring for quite some time now. And did you mean Thee Desperado for the Egyptians, not Desperado V (he's not even close to Egyptian)?


Omg, yes. Yes I did. I just came down with something last night (courtesy of my daughter) and my head is foggy. I definitely meant Thee Desperado. At least I got half the name, right? 

Oy, I'm walking away from the keyboard now.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SEAmom said:


> Omg, yes. Yes I did. I just came down with something last night (courtesy of my daughter) and my head is foggy. I definitely meant Thee Desperado. At least I got half the name, right?
> 
> Oy, I'm walking away from the keyboard now.


LOL! Don't you love first semester back at school? UGH the bugs the kids bring home to share!


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## Emoore (Sep 14, 2015)

Elana said:


> The same thing has happened with the American German Shepherd (nerve bags with over angulated hind legs to emphasize the 'flying trot' they never used herding sheep) or the Irish setter that has no idea what a bird is or how to hold steady on point.. or the Standard collie with the snipey head that looks nothing like the Old Lassie.
> 
> If a breed is popular and all it is judged on is looks, that breed is going to be made into an extreme caricature of the original breed intentions.
> .


Funny you should mention that I was just thinking the same thing. My other passion is German Shepherds and this conversation happens almost word-for-word on a weekly basis on the German Shepherd forums.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

I think it should be mandatory that any horse that wants to show in a halter class also _has_ to show in performance classes.. then maybe people would stop breeding for "living art" or whatever cutesy term is being used to describe the latest fad monstrosity. 

There are real arabs still out there, you just have to look for what you want. Of the 4 horses in my pasture, 3 are proven 100 mile horses:






































And the fourth, a greenie, hopefully will be my next 100 miler:











No seahorses here! :wink:


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Meh! Some how when humans get involved in the breeding process, we pretty well screw things right up!


Right?! An old trainer I used to work with at a show barn breeds Morgans that I personally think are the ugliest creatures. She specializes in Saddle Seat and that's part of the problem. Her Morgans looks like small Saddlebreds with bug eyes, tiny legs and large bodies. She also leaves their toes RIDICULOUSLY long and the feet themselves are small. Worst type of Morgan I have ever seen.

Some lines of Arabians are experiencing the same, but luckily my girl looks pretty classic (although she's got a more straight profile due to the Saddlebred in her).


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

WillowNightwind said:


> Right?! An old trainer I used to work with at a show barn breeds Morgans that I personally think are the ugliest creatures. She specializes in Saddle Seat and that's part of the problem. Her Morgans looks like small Saddlebreds with bug eyes, tiny legs and large bodies. She also leaves their toes RIDICULOUSLY long and the feet themselves are small. Worst type of Morgan I have ever seen.
> 
> Some lines of Arabians are experiencing the same, but luckily my girl looks pretty classic (although she's got a more straight profile due to the Saddlebred in her).


I think a lot of the problems that the various breeds are seeing are because the show ring has become SO competitive and specialized. Everyone used to take their horses to the show on Saturday morning, showed halter and hunter in the morning, western (or stockseat as it was called back then) and then on Sunday went out for a trail ride. Now people have a halter horse, hunter pleasure horse (for flat), hunter over fences and a jumping horse. The western folks do halter with one horse, Western Pleasure with another and reining another. All have very different conformation specialized to the jobs they do. It's becoming very rare to find a truly versatile horse that can do a little bit of everything and do it all fairly well. I'm not saying this to knock the show ring in any way, competition is driving what we're breeding and we're all breeding certain things for a reason. I just think that once we go to a point where a horse is good for only one thing, we're going a little too far.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We saw some Hackney's here for the first time last weekend and they looked really bizarre, heads way too small, tiny bodies with no depth of girth and legs that were so long and spindly at first sight we thought they were yearlings


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I don't know if that second photo is photoshopped or not, but I can tell you that, sadly, heads like that (freaky seahorse heads) are becoming the norm in main stream halter rings, along with bad legs, many of the well-known champions and reserve champions (of today) at the major shows worldwide have these freaky heads and poor legs (long cannons, upright pasterns, etc.). This issue has been a major discussion on the Arabian breeders message boards, and on Facebook Arabian groups, for quite awhile. If any of you use Facebook, check out Arlene Magid Pedigree Research page, she is well-known in Arabian circles, and she says it like it is... she has many good discussions on her FB page regarding the current show ring trend, conformation, with photos, and many good perspectives and comments from the top breeders (as well as the small breeders, too)... she is a wealth of knowledge and very well-respected. I've learn a lot from her page. And, yes, unfortunately, too many Arabian show horses actually do have heads like that one on the first page. I miss the Arabians of the 1960's and 1970's. It's also sad to see Poland is trending away from their pure Polish (old word Polish) breeding program, by adding a few of these sires that have this modern/freakish non-Arabian look, who are not Polish-bred. In the Arabian world it's all about money, some new people to the breed, who do not care to keep the true breed standard of the Arabian horse alive. Sort of like what Lasma Arabians did to the breed when they turned some of their Arabians into Saddlebred look-alikes many years ago.

Years ago they did have a requirement that halter horses had to have some amount of winnings/shows under saddle... but it was a joke as people pretty much found ways around that.

Fortunately there are breeders like Al-Marah Arabians who still breed for a correct, and versatile, Arabian. And some others out there too.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Corporal said:


> I've only owned one Arabian, "Corporal." Do you suppose that "hard keeper" is one of those badly bred characteristics, as well as the exaggerated profile and bad feet? I'm interested in your thoughts. =D


Arabians are known for having very tough, good hooves; and being easy keepers. One reason they do so well staying barefoot, and doing endurance. But these days too many modern breeders are breeding without regard to legs or hooves.

Arabian gelding I owned years ago, he had a lot of substance. He was an *Exelsjor son, out of a Crabbet-bred mare.





















And a mare I used to own, she was also Polish/Crabbet (*Hal Gazal granddaughter)...










At 3 years of age...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Crabbet horses were bred for substance, to be useful riding Arabians and for crossing with British ponies and horses to get quality without loss of good build
We had a grandson of Grojec for a while but after he went we returned to the TB x ID and WB's so we were amazed at how narrow and lightweight the Arabians we first saw here were in comparison
This is 4 generations of that line with very little change in type


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Great post, Jaydee! I love the Arabians bred in the United Kingdom (had to spell it out, silly board here turned the letter "u" into "you")!! Still to this day they have some of the best Arabians. Australia does, too.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Unfortunately Bazy Tankersly passed and Al-Marah is no more. One of the things that was very consistent about her breeding was type. She had some horses you could spot at 50 paces, their heads and necks were very distinctive. Unfortunately, she sacrificed size a lot in the process. Many of the Al Marah horses were TINY. Gorgeous, athletic and really small. In Tucson I got to see a lot of them and visited the ranch several times. I loved the horses but I prefer more size. 

I've never considered my Arabians to be particularly easy keepers. I suppose compared to TBs they are, but compared to my QHs who eat weeds and air, they require a lot more food. I don't think it's poor breeding. Stack my Arabs next to my QHs and it's like comparing a Tasmanian Devil and a Sloth, energy wise. They just burn up the fuel more.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We had more trouble keeping weight off Tramp than keeping it on him, I have some very embarrassing photos of him looking way too pudgy!!!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I actually kind of like the aesthetic of the contemporary "Halter" Arab... I think there are things (again, aesthetically) to be appreciated about the extremes.
That said, I'm not saying they should be pursued. Particularly not at the integrity of the overall wellbeing of the horse.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

DA, is this the breeder you're talking about? Al Marah Arabian Horses | Arabian Horses for Sale

Interesting...my friend who owns the brown arab gelding that's heavily Bask-bred that I posted a pic of earlier used to own a tiny chestnut arab mare who was a rescue out of Tucson. She had a head and neck a lot like the horses on that site. She was all of maybe 13.2hh (my friend riding her in this pic is 5'9")


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Yes, that's the one. His mother is the founder of Al-Marah and the vision for the breeding was all hers. She passed in Feb. 2013. She started breeding Arabians in the 1930's and founded Al-Marah in the 40's. I guess he decided to take over after all, for some years before her death he wasn't terribly interested in taking over and the majority of the herd went to MSU, I think some went to Cal Poly Pomona and the ranch to ASU, if I remember all the details right. 

It'll be interesting to see how he continues. She's going to be a tough act to follow. 

The horse your friend is on could very well be from the original herd. A lot of them didn't top 14 hands. I think recently (well, before she died) Bazy had started outcrossing to bring in some size.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Cassie was registered at one point, but we never saw her papers. She was sold to my friend as a 13yo. When the vet came to do her teeth, he pegged her at closer to 18-19. Then, a year or two later when she started having what the vet described as "horsey menopause" and another vet checked her teeth, they put her at 22-23. She was a great kid's horse and my friend got an offer of $5K for her from a little girl's dad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> She was a great kid's horse and my friend got an offer of $5K for her from a little girl's dad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That definitely sounds like she could have been an AM horse!


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

My new horse is AM-bred (and he may be 14.2 with shoes). Certainly built to do what I want - here's hoping he wants to do it too!


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## BiologyBrain (Jul 9, 2015)

I was just noticing this same thing the other day when I watched an old horse movie with my daughter. We watched The Adventures of Gallant Bess from the 1940s. The title horse, Bess, was never listed as a particular breed (she was supposed to to a wild horse, but she looked QH to me). However, she was definitely solidly built - good legs, more upright neck, not overly exaggerated rear or shoulders, good size, but not giant, etc. Since "real breeders" breed for show, the real using horses are fewer and further between for those of us away from the big ranches that do use them. Pretty is as pretty does and pretty usually doesn't do much! 

One of our best horses was an Arab/Saddlebred gelding. He lived to be 27 or so before he crippled up - probably bc of my then young QH filly. He was never lame in his life except his last little while. He lost his left eye as a 2-3 year old, but was the horse we could put anyone on safely even on trails. We never knew his bloodlines, but he moved with the elasticity and grace of both breeds. He was a sweetie. 

One of my uncles (by marriage) is related to the owners of the Arab stud Muhammad Ali (like the boxer). Was he a modern halter Arab or a good one?


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Emoore said:


> Funny you should mention that I was just thinking the same thing. My other passion is German Shepherds and this conversation happens almost word-for-word on a weekly basis on the German Shepherd forums.


When I was a kid, I had a neighbor that had a beautiful Doberman ***** and she was the most neurotic dog I've ever seen. They bred her several times and every time she ate her pups. The last litter they were able to snatch the pups away at birth and save them. WHY would one even think to breed an animal like that is beyond me. In the 70's dobies were extremely popular and profitable, that's why.

Shepherds  my first love for dogs. I grew up with the best shepherd in the world named Midnight. 

I really believe that if you are going to breed, whether one time or your a big time breeder working on a program, you have an obligation to the animals to breed the very best possible with compassion towards the lives that are created because of your endeavors.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Unfortunately Bazy Tankersly passed and Al-Marah is no more. One of the things that was very consistent about her breeding was type. She had some horses you could spot at 50 paces, their heads and necks were very distinctive. Unfortunately, she sacrificed size a lot in the process. Many of the Al Marah horses were TINY. Gorgeous, athletic and really small. In Tucson I got to see a lot of them and visited the ranch several times. I loved the horses but I prefer more size.
> 
> I've never considered my Arabians to be particularly easy keepers. I suppose compared to TBs they are, but compared to my QHs who eat weeds and air, they require a lot more food. I don't think it's poor breeding. Stack my Arabs next to my QHs and it's like comparing a Tasmanian Devil and a Sloth, energy wise. They just burn up the fuel more.



Actually, Bazy's son has taken it over.  And still doing great in the show ring (sport horse). They cleaned up at the Sport Horse Nationals again.

Al Marah Arabian Horses | Arabian Horses for Sale

And, Arabians are supposed to be small. Not huge. Most, if not all, of the famous sires of yesteryear were 14.2hh or under.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

my mare has quite the type face. she is cute but i think the wrong angle she looks weird. she has a huge forehead lol.

My grandparents had dobies from kimbertall kennels. the female they bred atr a cuple of her puppies and had to be spayed. her brother on the other hand was a nut case. bit me when i was a baby and almost did several times when i was younger. one of the pups they kept (think she was a result of out crossing as she was really stocky) was my partner in crime lol. Love dobies but i always pay attention to their head confo. if its not right it can force their brain out the brain stem and cause psycho dogs.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

KigerQueen, Your mare does have a typey head without being exaggerated. I wouldn't go any further than that with it.
I never knew that about the Dobies head confo. making them nuts.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

This ^ is about the heaviest that Corporal ever got.

I buy another one of him in a heartbeat.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

So many pretty horses shared on this thread! I love Arabians (and Lusitanos too). The "overbred" Arabs are just another example of people messing things up. As someone else mentioned, it happens w/ other purebred animals too (dogs, cats, not sure what else). And don't even get me started on other health issues humans have bred into animals...


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

KigerQueen, the forehead on an Arabian that bulges like that is called a jibbah, and highly sought after. Your mare is very pretty, she has a fabulous head, and awesome jibbah!


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

KigerQueen, is what the Dobies have with their heads/brain called syringomyelia? Sounds very similar to what Cavalier King Charles Spaniels can often have, although it doesn't make Cavaliers psycho, but it causes much pain, meds and surgery are needed for the Cavaliers. It is also found in other breeds.


All about syringomyelia in dogs | Pets4Homes


Syringomyelia (SM) and the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

no. its basically the skull grows to thick and when they have narrow skulls (and an overly pronounced "dobie" bump) the brain is squished in their skull. i bet it causes other issues bit being a bit nutters is what i have noticed. its generally regarded as a myth but its more of the skull gets to thick (this dose not happen often mind you but it CAN happen) than the brain outgrowing the skull. thats at least how our vet described it. it could be as simple as a "wiring" problem like some blue nose pits have (again caused by inbreeding). i have only ever had an issue with the red dobies. I have no idea about blue and isabella dobies though to get the colors it might have taken some serious inbreeding.









Did not know the head bulge was sought after XD! she also has the sign of the prophet on her neck!

also sad about the cavies. i love cavies but i will take a "rare" breed or a mutt/ wolf mix any day. our wolf lived to 21 with no issues. her 180lb son lived to 18.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

My neighbors dobie that was nutso was red


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I used to breed and show abyssinian cats. There colors are ruddy, red, blue (dilute of ruddy) and fawn (dilute of red). There is no heavy inbreeding for the dilutes, just a common dilution gene. I always assumed it was similar with the dobies. I really don't know though.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

How a century of breeding 'improvement' has turned once-healthy dogs into deformed animals | Daily Mail Online
I was just going to post the above link, but breeding illness into the dog, an animal who lives and dies by the attention of their owner, is my BIGGEST pet peeve. I am saddened to see the same garbage happening in horse breeds, mimicking the ridiculous inbreeding in TB's.
Don't put your head in the sand. Cheetahs have a very small gene pool and that is what is causing the biggest problem keeping them alive. Dog show people, over the past century, have created limited gene pools, and bred exclusively for looks and NOT function. They breed sick animals. The keep the healthiest puppies and show them. They take back sick puppies and kill them, justifying this as "euthanization" to keep the breed going, which is often a mission for them.
They have convinced people that poor build that creates hip displasia, something which I never heard of growing up with neighbors who all had family dogs, is normal and acceptable. You just pay your Vet to fix it. 
It's ok that your one year old Lab is suffering in pain. The first time I heard about this was the mid-1980's.
Great Danes now are lucky if they live until their 8th birthday. Short snouted purebred dogs have breathing problems. German Shepherds, MY personal favorite breed, grow up lame, often with health problems, and some organ failure.
People will buy a purebred dog that (somehow, because there are a few of them, for the right price) isn't sick, and they think that we are all crazy.
They have been sold a bill of goods, and the AKA and breeders breeding for the whims of the show ring are responsible for lying to the American public. Even Border Collies have been affected, even though they have been outcrossed in their long history, probably because the original breeders wanted healthy WORKING dogs.
Border Collie Sickness - Pets
Genes are passed on, and now we have 1/2 bred dogs from a sick parent and that dog is also sick. The argument that 1/2 bred dogs ALSO get sick is because of this. You don't roll the dice when you take in a puppy that you have a 50% chance of a healthy dog. This is a NEW phenomenon within MY adult lifetime. Your puppy or young dog should not be getting sick until they succumb to OLD dog problems, like 8-10yo's or older.
I have found so many examples that I could write a book. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE if you are looking for a dog, look for a type instead of a purebred. The only way to battle this is to attack the wallets of dog breeders.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Corporal said:


> How a century of breeding 'improvement' has turned once-healthy dogs into deformed animals | Daily Mail Online
> I was just going to post the above link, but breeding illness into the dog, an animal who lives and dies by the attention of their owner, is my BIGGEST pet peeve. I am saddened to see the same garbage happening in horse breeds, mimicking the ridiculous inbreeding in TB's.
> Don't put your head in the sand. Cheetahs have a very small gene pool and that is what is causing the biggest problem keeping them alive. Dog show people, over the past century, have created limited gene pools, and bred exclusively for looks and NOT function. They breed sick animals. The keep the healthiest puppies and show them. They take back sick puppies and kill them, justifying this as "euthanization" to keep the breed going, which is often a mission for them.
> They have convinced people that poor build that creates hip displasia, something which I never heard of growing up with neighbors who all had family dogs, is normal and acceptable. You just pay your Vet to fix it.
> ...


This, as a sweeping statement against ALL purebred dogs and breeders, is utterly ridiculous. Yes, there are absolutely people who breed just for the wallet and there are those who deliberately breed malformed or unhealthy dogs. I'll be the first to acknowledge that, and I absolutely hate how some breeds in the show ring look nowadays. Gsds are one of those breeds. However, there are many good breeders (yes, some that even show their dogs!) that breed with the intentions of producing healthy dogs and bettering the breed. Dogs are proven in both the show ring and appropriate performance venues, dogs are fully health tested, structure is studied, and pedigrees are heavily reviewed. The goal is NOT to show the healthy dogs and euthanize the rest. The goal is to produce healthy, quality dogs. The best ones are kept for showing/breeding/performance purposes, and the ones who don't have what it takes to be competitive are placed in thoroughly screened pet/performance homes. 

I do not personally breed dogs (though I have a male that likely will be bred when he is old enough to finish his health testing, assuming good results) but I am quite close with my breeder and a number of others in the breed. For most GOOD breeders money has nothing to do with it. My breeder does not make money off of her litters. She does sell the puppies, but that does not come close to covering the costs of vet care, stud fees, show fees, health testing, and everything that goes into raising a litter. There are some absolutely horrible breeders out there and some abominations in the show ring, but making such wild accusations and assumptions about all breeders (show breeders in particular) is just ridiculous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

there are some good breeders. and there are some not so good breeders and sadly there are alot more crappy breeders. working in a grooming salon i see it all. there is a 3 year old husky that's on medication for grandmall seizures. most german shepherds have some sort of tendon issue by 5 (or are crippled by 5). mastiffs and pittis with skin issues so bad they look like they have mange, with huge bloody scabs (90% of the time if its any type of mastiff it has skin issues). English bulldogs can hardly walk and their folds are so full of gunk they are raw and bleeding. labs are either neurotic (not kidding i have had more labs try to bite me than any other breed). healthiest dogs that come in are either mutts, ridgebacks or akitas.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Corporal said:


> How a century of breeding 'improvement' has turned once-healthy dogs into deformed animals | Daily Mail Online
> I was just going to post the above link, but breeding illness into the dog, an animal who lives and dies by the attention of their owner, is my BIGGEST pet peeve. I am saddened to see the same garbage happening in horse breeds, mimicking the ridiculous inbreeding in TB's.
> Don't put your head in the sand. Cheetahs have a very small gene pool and that is what is causing the biggest problem keeping them alive. Dog show people, over the past century, have created limited gene pools, and bred exclusively for looks and NOT function. They breed sick animals. The keep the healthiest puppies and show them. They take back sick puppies and kill them, justifying this as "euthanization" to keep the breed going, which is often a mission for them.
> They have convinced people that poor build that creates hip displasia, something which I never heard of growing up with neighbors who all had family dogs, is normal and acceptable. You just pay your Vet to fix it.
> ...


Sorry, but this is a broad statement that is not entirely true.

I personally know breeders of AKC registered dogs. The breeders I know breed cairn terriers. One of the breeders had a litter of three puppies a few years ago. One of the females was show quality. The male was not show quality, but had the personality to do earth dog or agility trials. The other female would have been show quality (she was a red, which is a fairly uncommon coat color), except her siblings were playing too rough with her and broke down the cartilage in her ear, causing it to flop permanently. They offered me the red female with the floppy ear for $300 (her show quality sister ended up selling for $1300 to a show home), with a buy-back guarantee and a spay contract. I ended up buying Aires instead, but last I heard, they still had Gracie and she was competing successfully in AKC obedience trials. The other breeder I know doesn't breed very often and has a full buy-back guarantee on their puppies. Neither of these breeders will euthanize a dog unless it's quality of life is in question. Both do all necessary genetic testing before breeding any of their stock and if any of them come up with less than perfect tests, they are immediately spayed/neutered and sold to pet homes, or kept for their entire lives by the breeder. My second friend who breeds cairns just had to put her old man to sleep at 17-years-old.

Yes, there are unscrupulous breeders out there who breed for looks or follow the latest fads in their breeding. However, to make a blanket statement that ALL breeders of purebreds do this is unfair and untrue.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

that being said fresians have some crazy health issues that have driven me away from ever getting one.

Hydrocephalus
Hydrocephalus is a relatively uncommon disorder in horses, but in Friesians it is seen at an estimated rate of 2.5 foals per 1,000 births.1 Some researchers think the higher incidence of hydrocephalus in this breed is caused by a deformation of the jugular foramen. If this collagen-based structure fails to develop properly, a chain of events begins that may lead to fatal hydrocephalus. A nonfunctional jugular foramen could lead to internal jugular vein compression. This could disturb cerebral spinal fluid and enhance its accumulation, resulting in hydrocephalus.1 In an article documenting Friesian clinical issues, Siebren Boerma, DVM, of the Equine Clinic Garijp in the Netherlands and colleagues discuss both dwarfism and hydrocephalus and attempt to connect them genetically.1

Megaesophagus

One of the most serious clinical problems seen in the Friesian breed is megaesophagus. This problem is directly related to the suspected collagen abnormality seen in this breed.1 Megaesophagus is a chronic dilation of the esophagus, accompanied by a lack of normal muscle tone and contractile ability in the esophageal wall. It can be seen in all animals but is usually found at a very low rate in the general horse population.

Compromised immunity

Friesian horses are thought to have weakened immune systems, so many problems that affect other horse breeds only marginally tend to be worse in this breed. For example, the incidence of retained placenta is nearly 54 percent in Friesian horses compared with only 2 to 10 percent in the general equine population.1

Verrucous pastern dermatopathy

This condition is also overrepresented in the Friesian breed as well as several other draught horse breeds. This chronic dermatitis develops into thick, nodular, ulcerated skin on the caudal side of the pasterns. The long hair or feathering found in this location is thought to accumulate moisture and debris, which may have some role in the development of skin irritation. This condition has also been called chronic progressive lymphedema, grapes, greasy heel and granulomatous pastern dermatitis. These lesions are often frustratingly unresponsive to treatment. And although genetics is suspected of playing a role with this skin condition in the Friesian, it hasn't been proven.

Aortic artery rupture

Aortic rupture is an important and unique problem in the Friesian horse that again relates to a disorder in collagen tissue.1 Just about all equine aortic ruptures in non-Friesian breeds occur at the connection between the aorta and the heart in an area called the aortic root. Rupture of the main blood vessel in the body at this level leads to rapid filling of the pericardial sac and cardiac tapenade as the blood-filled sac around the heart does not allow the heart to expand and beat. This condition leads to acute heart failure and death. Most horses suffering aortic rupture are either found dead with little to no sign of struggle or discomfort before death or are stable one moment and die very rapidly once the aorta ruptures.

Last one is enough to keep me away from the breed. We are starting to cause alot of issues with horse breeds the same we do with dog breeds. there are good breeders that weed out the problem animals, and there are others who will breed it because they can bank on it.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

It is a broad statement, and the only REAL solution is to outcross these dogs breeds, which the AKA won't let the breeders register, so they won't. It is an epidemic and it isn't the breeders that suffer, IT IS THE DOGS.
My heart breaks for the dogs and horses bred solely to perpetuate a "breed" and they suffer in silence.
I am not crazy or off of the deep end.
With horses I don't believe that the situation is as bad as with dogs.
*You have to fall OUT of love with a Breed,* and learn to love the dogs FIRST. That stupid paper means nothing to your lame or sick dog.
I continue to get mixed breed puppies. They are overall healthier, and the 5 dogs I've owned have only gotten sick as OLD dogs, not under 2yo's.
My friends West Highland Terrier (purebred, with those "excellent" bloodlines, dontcha know") was put down this year as a 4yo, riddled with cancer, which the breeder admitted after the fact, _could happen. _The family is torn up over this.
Would you like to buy your purebred horse and only have him 4 years?


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

It's not fake, some breeders really do like to breed disfigured and conformation monsters and judges approve of it. It's terrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

There are some very good, ethical breeders out there. I am on a MN Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Group... there are a couple of breeders on there who may have one litter a year, and who show their dogs. Before they do any breeding they wait until the dogs are old enough to be tested for the issues that may crop up within the breed (some health issues only show up when the dogs are a little older). You just have to do your homework, do the research, and only do business with a responsible breeder if you want a purebred dog.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

So me personally, I hate what a lot of the dogs winning AKC shows look like nowadays, same with the horses winning halter classes. That being said, there are plenty of people who are trying to breed correctly, and have animals that will stand the test of time, but people get so into the fad of whatever the newest "look" is that they overlook the true to type dogs and horses in favor of the fad. Personally I have a couple particular breeds of dogs that I want, but I'm going to go through rescue for them. I have no desire to vet breeders, and hopefully make sure that they really are responsible, and after having a horrible experience with a totally horrible breeder, I'd much rather adopt from a breed rescue then find a breeder. I have no plans to show, and definitely no plans to breed, so a rescue is perfect. 

On the note of Arabs, I honestly thought that most if not all Arabs were the 16-17 hand more saddlebredy looking Arabs you see at Scottsdale, and I was totally turned off of the breed. Then I started training someone's horse that was boarded at an old Arab breeding farm that still had some youngsters and a couple broodmares. They were in pretty crappy condition, so we "rescued" two of them, one was sent to a rescue, the other one was supposed to be short project, train a little, and find a good home for. I honestly fell completely in love with the breed, and want another one someday similar to the mare I had. She topped out at about 14.1, her sister was 15.1, sister was a little more refined, but the girl I had was often mistaken for a Quarab. Nice big hip, good bone, the dish she had was made by the jibbah, she had a very expressive face, and a beautiful mover. After working with her, I am such a big fan of the breed. Alada Dreame Vs Arabian this is her pedigree. I am happy to see though that there are definitely a number of Arabs similar to this around, so hopefully when I'm able to get a horse again, I can find one.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

LoriF said:


> Some lusitano breeders doing the same. Taking a breed characteristic and going to far with it.



Bleck!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

dressagebelle said:


> On the note of Arabs, I honestly thought that most if not all Arabs were the 16-17 hand more saddlebredy looking Arabs you see at Scottsdale, and I was totally turned off of the breed.


I live in AZ and had never seen an Arab taller than 15-15.1hh until my friend got her 16hh Bask-bred gelding. Haven't seen one as tall (or taller) since. A couple of people at my old barn had former Scottsdale Arabs who didn't make the show ring cut (not because of height...didn't have enough "fire") and the tallest was 14.3hh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

It is because of the halter bred "seahorse" type arabs that I disliked the breed for many years. It wasn't until relatively recently I learned that that is NOT the norm for the breed.

On a side note, I kind of like the brown Lusitano posted early in the thread...the others are a bit much, but I like the middle one. Looks handsome and noble to me.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

KigerQueen said:


> that being said fresians have some crazy health issues that have driven me away from ever getting one. (snip)
> 
> We are starting to cause alot of issues with horse breeds the same we do with dog breeds. there are good breeders that weed out the problem animals, and there are others who will breed it because they can bank on it.


Having been around purebred dogs for fifty years or so, I will stick in my well-used oar to say that with dogs, as with horses, there are two quite separate issues that combine to create the tangled genetic mess we have made.

First, that outcrossing a population suffering horribly from problems caused entirely by inbreeding is not allowed, because of clinging to non-scientific ideas about "purity" dating from the 19th century eugenics movement. This is the worst thing facing Friesians, and also the majority of AKC registered show dog breeds. You simply cannot solve genetic inbreeding problems without outcrossing into unrelated populations. This is a fact as inarguable as gravity. Doesn't matter how "responsible" you are, believe me. I've seen endless examples of this from the dog world. And owned more than a few. 

Second, that when breeding animals are not primarily selected for real-world performance qualities but for beauty contests, traits will, in fact *must*, be exaggerated in order to continue winning. Ever More So is the credo of the show ring. If you want to play, you have to become part of the system that creates these monsters. And make no mistake, it is not any particular individual at fault, but just the system at work. 

The only push back to these inexorable trends that I have seen be successful is to start your own breed, or, more often, your own 'old-time' segment of the breed that according to the rules of the reform group, cannot interbreed with the current model. Traditional Morgans are one example in horses and I am sure there are others. 

There are quite a few in the dog world as well, people who want nothing to do with the show dog version of what was once a useful type of dog, and start their own separate registry for only the old fashioned kind. They avoid the beauty contests ("conformation showing" is quite the misnomer), although they might have herding or hunting contests. That doesn't solve the inbreeding problem, however. That requires applying present-day genetic knowledge to breeding practices. I know of exactly no one who does this, either with dogs or horses. Commercial livestock, absolutely yes and all day long, but not dogs or horses.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

these 'Breeders" that take the horses to the extreme are doing so for one or two things.
fame or money or both. This is not done to enhance the horses health . 

each breed has its own issues. Appys = eyes. Quarters= herda and typing up diseases.
Arabs = genetic sway back with hind legs that are wonky (i forget the name) One of the Arab breeders on this forum told me about the disease as i had a mare with the problem .
IMHO if you breed a horse for a fad , then you should not be breeding.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Sorry, but this is a broad statement that is not entirely true.
> 
> I personally know breeders of AKC registered dogs. The breeders I know breed cairn terriers. One of the breeders had a litter of three puppies a few years ago. One of the females was show quality. The male was not show quality, but had the personality to do earth dog or agility trials. The other female would have been show quality (she was a red, which is a fairly uncommon coat color), except her siblings were playing too rough with her and broke down the cartilage in her ear, causing it to flop permanently. They offered me the red female with the floppy ear for $300 (her show quality sister ended up selling for $1300 to a show home), with a buy-back guarantee and a spay contract. I ended up buying Aires instead, but last I heard, they still had Gracie and she was competing successfully in AKC obedience trials. The other breeder I know doesn't breed very often and has a full buy-back guarantee on their puppies. Neither of these breeders will euthanize a dog unless it's quality of life is in question. Both do all necessary genetic testing before breeding any of their stock and if any of them come up with less than perfect tests, they are immediately spayed/neutered and sold to pet homes, or kept for their entire lives by the breeder. My second friend who breeds cairns just had to put her old man to sleep at 17-years-old.
> 
> Yes, there are unscrupulous breeders out there who breed for looks or follow the latest fads in their breeding. However, to make a blanket statement that ALL breeders of purebreds do this is unfair and untrue.


 This caught my attention because I have had Cairns since the 1970s and have known some very conscientious breeders and some that test for every possible genetic problem they can and will not breed a dog with confirmation faults or a less than desirable disposition. There certainly are some good people out there breeding any kind of animal. 

Getting back to the thread about horses and particularly Arabians. I don't see why when a breed originates that it needs to go off in different directions. I think I would rather see a more unified type and if that didn't exactly fit my needs I would consider a cross or go to another breed entirely. To me "halter" should just be the individuals with the best confirmation and not a different type than the performance horses. I would really like to see a division in the registries between purebred breeding stock and those just eligible to be registered as purebred.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Honestly, the real problem with the world these days is that we breed for looks instead of use. This is true with horses and dogs, even cats.

Why? Because we have no more *use *for these animals anymore. They used to be beasts of burden, or working animals who had a specific job to do. So, we bred them for purpose. We bred them to be tough. We bred them to last.

Those days are pretty much gone, with the exception of those select few who still need animals in their daily lives.

We've bred some pretty stupid looking and behaving animals so that they can be models; placed on a pedestal for us to look at and admire. Like white tigers - a serious genetic problem that is harmful to the animal, but humans exploit it.

What is wrong with society?


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