# Color



## kaelagrice21 (Mar 1, 2018)

I purchased this colt and he wont be coming home until late August / September. Dam is homozygous grey and Sire is double homozygous grulla roan and has Blue Valentine in his bloodlines and I’m curious to what color everyone will think he will change into. I looked at some of the other Sires offspring and alot of them have roaned out whether it be bay roan, buckskin roan and so on.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That says baby will carry gray, dun and roan. All are dominant genes so even with just one copy they will express. If mom is black based or if dad is homozygous for black then baby is black based. And you know baby is because of color now. You will have eventually a horse that is white due to graying out covering all but the dun stripe which will be toned down but still visible. The only real question is does mom carry agouti making base bay/brown instead of black. So black, dun, roan going gray; question about agouti (bay/brown).


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

You're going to have a grey in the end, the mare made sure of that.


----------



## kaelagrice21 (Mar 1, 2018)

ApuetsoT said:


> You're going to have a grey in the end, the mare made sure of that.


Do you think he will be a darker grey or a lighter one like his dam? This is his sire


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Greys continue to lighten as they age, but the rate at which is happens is random (as far as I know).

Adorable baby, and a handsome sire!


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Eventually he will be white. He may get there sooner rather than later or later rather than sooner. But get there he will. Mom will continue to whiten as well. 



Homozygous means the parent has two copies of the gene they carry. That means they will pass one. With all 4 (black, dun, roan, gray - 5 if you include agouti) of those genes you only need one gene to express the trait. Gray overrides ALL of them. Gray eventually = white.


----------



## kaelagrice21 (Mar 1, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Eventually he will be white. He may get there sooner rather than later or later rather than sooner. But get there he will. Mom will continue to whiten as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Homozygous means the parent has two copies of the gene they carry. That means they will pass one. With all 4 (black, dun, roan, gray - 5 if you include agouti) of those genes you only need one gene to express the trait. Gray overrides ALL of them. Gray eventually = white.


What about the sire being double homozygous? Does that change anything? I dont know jack squat about color genetics so bear with me haha. I was looking at the dams papers and she has sorrel,palomino, buckskin roan and black in her bloodlines.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The genetics of the parents are what determine the genetics of the foal. That said the parents had to get the genes from somewhere. Recessive genes hide it takes two copies to "see" the trait - like sorrel. For color (base) the horse is either EE (black), Ee (Black) or ee (sorrel, chestnut). Those two genes are in the same place on the DNA strand. EE and ee are homozygous - there are two copies of the same gene. All sorrel or chestnuts are homozygous because "e" is recessive. There have to be two copies to see it. "E" is dominant. You only need one so whether your horse is homozygous for black (EE) or heterozygous (one copy - Ee - only one E) your horse is black. Everything else is a modifier. Some modifiers effect black and red (gray, roan, dun); some only effect one or the other (cream - red, agouti - black. That said if a horse is homozygous for a modifier it may effect either even if it normally only effect one or the other. There are more modifiers than I used like silver dapple, champagne, sooty... 



By saying the sire is double homozygous they are saying he has two copies of two genes. He may be triple. EE (black) - ? we don't know this one for sure without a test, DD for dun - makes him grulla and RnRn for roan which makes him a roan in addition to grulla. He will always pass D and always pass Rn because that is what he has on those two locations. Baby gets one gene from mom and one for dad for each location. Mom is whatever her base is plus GrGr. Sire would be gr/gr. Baby gets Gr from mom and gr from dad. Because gray is dominant all it takes is that one copy. Gray over rides everything else. Baby is EE or Ee, Ag/ag, Gr/gr, D/d, Rn/rn. She could also have roan or dun or any other gene that is hidden by the gray. Unless he is faded baby is getting Ag from mom as it is dominant also and only effects black so if dad had it he would not be a grulla he would be bay dun.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Do you have better pics of mom? Do you know what color her dam and sire are? That could tell you more about what she may be. Genes don't skip generations. Say you raise your baby and use him to sire a baby. The new baby is NOT gray. If you then breed that baby the newest baby will not be gray unless mom carries the gene. It will not come from the dad just because it is somewhere back in the papers.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

All horses are black or red (chestnut. Black horses can be either black or bay/brown depending on an additional gene. Once horses are divided into black/bay/brown then additional genes can take effect (cream, dun, etc). Things like roan and grey are pattern genes, they don't effect the true color of the horse (black/bay/red/etc) simply alter it. Then you have white as in markings or spotted patterns. White acts like spilled paint not changing or altering the true color but covering it.

The fact that the mare is homozygous grey means the foal IS grey, grey is dominant so whether he is G/G or G/g (he's the second, as dad is obviously not grey) he will still grey out and show the "pattern" (grey).

His genetics won't change, but his appearance WILL change due to being grey.

What his genetics are don't matter, what his true color is doesn't matter. He could be pink! He will still turn grey as it's not THE color he is, it is altering the color he is. (Roan may be easier to picture, you can SEE that dad is a black horse that has the roaning pattern, whereas grey changes the color so it does look different, but the gene is the same type as it's not a color, but is just changing the appearance of the color if that makes sense. If you think of it as a pattern it may be easier to understand).

As far as "double homozygous" it sounds like others are assuming homozygous for roan and dun, but I was curious what exactly he was homozygous for. (I thought roan couldn't be homozygous?)

But yes, it doesn't matter. He IS grey, and WILL turn grey absolutely no matter what! Grey horses are born showing their base color ("true color") then transition to pure white which will take years and he will look very different at various points in the process, they are all different too.

Now as far as his base color it depends on what the sire is homozygous for and what the mare's base color is. He is obviously black based (black/bay/brown and NOT chestnut) and I'm assuming one of those genes the sire is homozygous for is dun, so he would also have that (which I can see in the picture). So he could be black dun (grulla) or bay/brown dun (buckskin/brownskin). It's hard to tell at this age and the grey can distort the foal color even at birth so hard to tell if he's so dark because he's a grulla or if it's the effects of the grey. If you care you can test agouti as that is the gene that causes black to become bay or brown (or figure out parents genetics in that area). Either way he will be white though, they usually lighten in the tail and on the head first. I'd just start calling him grey even though he doesn't look it yet.

This is why color breeders don't like grey, as the other genetics just don't matter. The horse either has a 50% or like your boy 100% chance of becoming grey and if they get that one gene they ARE grey. But I'm glad your boy was bred for more than color, he's a nice looking horse!


----------



## kaelagrice21 (Mar 1, 2018)

Yogiwick said:


> All horses are black or red (chestnut. Black horses can be either black or bay/brown depending on an additional gene. Once horses are divided into black/bay/brown then additional genes can take effect (cream, dun, etc). Things like roan and grey are pattern genes, they don't effect the true color of the horse (black/bay/red/etc) simply alter it. Then you have white as in markings or spotted patterns. White acts like spilled paint not changing or altering the true color but covering it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! And now my brain hurts from all this info lol.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I hope it makes sense at least!

I find it helps with the brain hurting to take things one piece at a time, and for the understanding (and brain hurting) to think of the colors as "layers" as I described above (figure out the base color then any patterns then any spotting) as that will help match up the genetics with what you're looking at and I think makes it easier to understand.


----------



## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

kaelagrice21 said:


> Thank you! And now my brain hurts from all this info lol.



Yes, and just when you think you have it all figured out they discover something new and it upsets the apple cart. LOL


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

And after saying all that I realized I had a brain fart. Cream does effect black base horses. Duh. Or we wouldn't have buckskin where the black points remain black but the red body that comes with bay lightens. It shows in the fading pattern on a black horse and the color of hair in the ears but the new coat summer or fall is always black.


----------



## kaelagrice21 (Mar 1, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> And after saying all that I realized I had a brain fart. Cream does effect black base horses. Duh. Or we wouldn't have buckskin where the black points remain black but the red body that comes with bay lightens. It shows in the fading pattern on a black horse and the color of hair in the ears but the new coat summer or fall is always black.




Updated picture of him. I purchased and looked at him last Saturday and he looks like he knows hes a handsome little man already


----------



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> EE and ee are homozygous - there are two copies of the same gene. All sorrel or chestnuts are homozygous because "e" is recessive. There have to be two copies to see it. "E" is dominant. You only need one so whether your horse is homozygous for black (EE) or heterozygous (one copy - Ee - only one E) your horse is black. Everything else is a modifier.


Bay is not a modifier. Base color is determined by the genes at extension AND agouti. This blog is one of the few who stays current, so is a great resource.



This video does a great job of explaining how the base colors in horses work:









OP, as others have said, your horse will eventually look white as the greying process removes pigment. In general, also being roan seems to make the grey process happen more slowly, but each individual is different.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Maybe it's just his baby coat shedding out, but it looks like he's starting to gray a little, already.
Super hecking cute x.x


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Zexious said:


> Maybe it's just his baby coat shedding out, but it looks like he's starting to gray a little, already.
> Super hecking cute x.x


I was thinking that too, that recent pic? Without knowing his parents/genetics I would still say grey.

Congrats!


----------

