# TOE DRAGGING, a dig in spine? NO RIDING EVER?



## WhiskeyCowGirl (Oct 11, 2012)

I could be completely off base, but it looks just like lack of strength more than anything. He is very, very underweight. You need more weight on him, and to build his topline muscle.. his spine just hasn't got any meat on it. I think (and I'm not an expert) once you start feeding him up, work on his fitness, you'll be fine.


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Show us his hooves from several angles. I think I see long broken back toes on those back feet. Very big issue for horses backs and hips and common for the farrier to say oh its fine! No it isnt. Time for a second opinion on that. It would account for his toe dragging and way of going. He isnt tracking up well either.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I would ask another vet, or, if you have GOOD chiropractors where you are, that would be another option. He needs weight. Badly, as well as condition as has been said.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm not a vet, but the dip in the spine right in front of the hips/pelvis seems pretty normal in thin horses. I think every horse has it, but it only shows up when they loose a lot of weight. Actually, your guy looks like he might have a mild "roach back," if anything.

I wish I could help more but I don't have any expertise in this area. Just looking at your videos, he certainly doesn't look like a crippled horse with no hope of riding. I would get his condition back up to a healthy weight, make sure his hooves are trimmed correctly, and go from there. Maybe a second opinion from another vet is in order. But I certainly don't see a reason to write him off just yet. I would take care of the problems you can fix (weight, feet) and maybe get a second opinion. 

What kind of sticks out to me more than his back is his neck. He has the neck of a horse who carries himself in a "hollow" frame. Maybe that is a sign of back pain? Or it could just be from all the weight he has lost.

Best of luck with your pretty boy. I hope he is doing better soon.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

The fact that your vet told you all horses were in poor condition in spring and that your horse was never going to be fatter because "he is just like that" really really concerns me. It is absolutely not true, and for your vet to discount it that way makes me question if your vet should be trusted. I have seen many underweight and under-muscled horses drag their toes, and that, combined with hooves not trimmed properly (which will remain to be seen until some pictures of them are posted) can definitely cause what you are seeing.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I tried to find a few photos of thin horses to show you what I mean. I think that dip is just a part of their anatomy that doesn't show until they get thin.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u90/beachridr/pemphigus foliaceous/100_9665.jpg

http://www.online-utility.org/image...jpg/800px-This_Horse_is_in_Terrible_Shape.jpg

http://www.lighthousefarmsanctuary.org/news/2008/neglect/neglected_horse.jpg


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

Your horse is in need of weight that's why he has that dip right in front of hips.
Toe dragging can be from poor trimming. Long run forward heels will sure not help.

My gelding drags his toes it from poor farrier work long run forward heels slows break over. Iam currently dealing with toe dragging. From what I can see of hoofs they look long.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I have a horse that has a wonky back end. He failed at the track at age 3 because he moves funny in the hind end. Once his "funny movement" was noticed he was tested for herpes virus and EPM, both tests came back negative. The next step for us was to either see how he went or get an MRI of him. To rule out low level wobblers. He is not valuable enough for an MRI honestly, so we decided to see how he did with exercise. I lunged him, got him fit (he was under condition) he improved. He will never be a great show horse, he benefits from regular work (which he does not get). He does not trip, he is just toe draggy. He may have to have shoes put on in back in the future to get him to lift his hind feet up. 

I would get a vets second opinion. The other thing that we would start out all our testing with was to circle him. Circle your horse so that he has to pivot on his hind feet. My "normal" horse will cross his feet over one another easily. This "special" horse will not cross them over smoothly. We would also tail test him. When we grab the "normal" horses tail he pulls back and does not give in or get off balance. the "special" one does move his hind end and does not give a lot of resistance to moving. I rode him last summer and he was okay, he has training issues that are not related to his wonkyness. He will be harder to find a home for because I will disclose all that we know about him to any potential buyer. 

Depending on where you are located. I would get a full lameness evaluation, and have him tested for EPM. I don't think is lack of condition is unrelated I think it weird that a vet would say he won't get into better condition unless they had done some tests to rule out metabolic issues. If you want to know for sure about your horses spine get an MRI. I am not a vet or a veterinary professional so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Edit to add: for what its worth with my boy they talked about and MRI of the head and neck not the back.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

Hello again,

I can’t tell if I can see any improvement. . . but his mood is much better, he is happy and excited. I took some photos of his hooves and made some new videos.

On Monday, ha had a massage and the lady told me that his back seems to be quite ok to her and that all horses have such a dig in the spine but his is visible because he is very thin. She told me the same what you have said: to buy some horse feed and beetroot in a form of pellets to make him gain some weight, and adviced to lunge him and add some extra cavaletti work. Also, my saddle turned out not to fit properly and she adviced to call a professional saddle fitter after he is ok. 
I don’t know who shall I trust? A vet or this woman? She made me believe again!
I don’t know what to think … I would like to ride on him some day 

Shall I also change a farrier? He is going to be next week. Maybe horseshoes on all four legs will help? Tell me all what you think…



















































































Thank you for your answers.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I don't know any good vet that believes all horses come out of winter in poor shape, or that the dip in the photo is damage. I have seen that on many, many thin horses. Your guy needs weight and exercise. I would get another vet ASAP, and get a second opinion.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree, second vet.

Also I would try to find an equine chiropractor and professional saddle fitter.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

In my country, there is a long weekend due to labour day and independence day. I decided to contact one of the best vets in my country but I was told to call on Monday... 

I am devastated! I can't live normally... I can't stand uncertainty and helplessness. it is killing me. 
Do you think that this horse is of no use ever?  I am losing hope...


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm confused as to why you are losing hope. Have you read what others have wrote? Everyone is pretty much saying the same thing - get weight on him. He will be stronger. You won't know until then. If my horse looked like your horse my vet would be giving me an earful because horses should not be thin like that.

Feed more, have teeth checked, and make sure the horse is up to date on worming. Get the weight back up and go from there. He didn't get this weight overnight so it will take a bit to build him back up.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

Cat said:


> I'm confused as to why you are losing hope. Have you read what others have wrote? Everyone is pretty much saying the same thing - get weight on him. He will be stronger. You won't know until then. If my horse looked like your horse my vet would be giving me an earful because horses should not be thin like that.
> 
> Feed more, have teeth checked, and make sure the horse is up to date on worming. Get the weight back up and go from there. He didn't get this weight overnight so it will take a bit to build him back up.


I knew that he was getting thin but: I dewormed him (with little result), have bought lucerne added some vitamins into his diet, 1-2kg of carrots every day + parsley and apples. It was really difficult to exercise him during winter because there wasn't a dry padock so I used to mount him 2 times a week and ride to nearby forest. . He eats like crazy but he is still too thin, while other horses look much better. I thought he could have a bigger parasite like tapeworm. I am diappointed with the vet because I wanted to examine his blood , take rtg of his legs etc but the vet concentrated on his lameness and presented me with the statement that he is of no use becuase of his spine... :/ ((( 
I will call another vet on Monday. I will try to "put some meat on him" ( I like this phrase) by lungeing him every day with some cavaletti work. 
Believe me, it's hard to accept and believe this "verdict"


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

What country are you in? Are you reading our replies?


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

Cacowgirl said:


> What country are you in? Are you reading our replies?


I'm from Poland. I do read your replies. Why? 

- My horse had his teeth done last autumn
- The farrier last visit 04.03 , next visit - next week
- dewormed two months ago
- vet visited us last Friday
- equine massage: two days ago

This is my only horse and I do know as much as you...


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

carrots and apples are not going to put weight on any horse. He needs hard feed, preferably somthing containing barley, heavy in oils (like linseed) and heavy in slow release calories.

My vet would kill me if my horse looked anything like that, infact in the UK you'd be lucky if the RSPCA didnt get involved and accuse you of neglect. Get a new vet!


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

I am going to buy this (as I was adviced): St. Hippolyt Nutrition Concepts | Reformmüsli 
and beetroots in a form a pellets (http://www.atos.sklep.pl/files/wyslodki_m.jpg)

I was also surprised that the vet told me "he is like that". I thought that is because of lack of muscles. 
I will call another vet but it will take long to get him ;/


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## Roadyy (Feb 9, 2013)

Can you list everything that you feed him and how much? Then try to search the local feed stores for what brand of horse feed they offer and post those up. There are some very knowledgeable members here who can dissect each feed and give you a schedule of what and how much to feed to get him healthy and keep him that way. 

I will add that he does not need to be worked/exercised in his present condition. He has already lost too much substance from lack of feed and will only get worse if you start working him before getting weight on him.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Our posts crossed last time. I'm glad you are getting another vet. There are many threads here of horses that have recovered from problems and are being riddin and are fine. When did I ever say I knew more than you? We are all here to learn & share our experiences. Things are just different in other areas. Did the person giving the massage say anything about a chiropractor? That has also helped a lot of horses.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I must be blind because I'm not seeing any issues to be concerned about, not even in his hoof angles. The horse is a bit roach backed and that confo loses doesn't give the horse much elasticity in the back. If you think he's in pain, when he's relaxed and rested, stand in front of him and look at his nostrils. Look to see if the top of each nostril is the same height. A horse will often pull the nostril on the side corresponding with the pain making it appear higher and perhaps more flared. Walk away a bit then look again. The vet is wrong about horses in general with weight loss. We do get used to a larger appearance caused by a fluffy winter coat and they do appear thinner when shedding out but usually the weight remains fairly concistant.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Roaddy-last post- has some pictures in a thread of his of a mare that he re-habbed. Don't lose hope-your horse is young. Another thing he may need is magnesium.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

This horse, at this point, needs food food and more food. Quit lunging him, quit exercising him. Let him exercise himself in a paddock, let him eat 24/7 and get weight back on him.Quit worry about building up his muscles until he has something to work with. A starving animal, any animal, will start losing muscle mass to stay alive once all the fat stores are gone in the body. He will then keep getting skinnier and skinnier because there is NO fat source for his body to live on, now its using muscles. You can't expect to put a very thin out of condition horse onto a exercise program, even just lunging everyday without proper food to keep and in this case, build his body back up. I let my horses go ALL winter with no riding due to snow/cold and they are usually too fat coming out of winter.
Your vet is an idiot. No vet should recommend exercise for a horse this thin.This horse needs blood builder, forage and food. This horse is also not permantely damaged. He is thin, almost to the point of starvation. Get some weight on him. Most important get another vet.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I watched this horse move and he is a bit flat in the croup and roached in the back. Quite honestly, he is moving fine for his conformation. If you think he has a bad back, take him out on a halter and a lead line. Lead him forward at a walk and then turn him sharply and quickly to the right and left right back around (180 degrees). If he has a back issue that is going to impair him, he will stumble BADLY.. lose control of his hind legs.. fall down perhaps.. and show clear signs of not controlling his hind legs. IMO this horse is FINE. 

In fact, in the lunging he does something that tells me he is fine and lunging correctly.. he reaches down with his head and neck. Golly that is nice.. and if he had side reins on loosely with a surcingle he might reach down better. This stretches the back.. and if he was sore back there he would likely RAISE his head not lower it nicely like that. 

The feet look really good. He strikes on the outside of the hinds first.. and that is normal. He is not dragging his toes so badly he is wearing them off. Keep your farrier. Those feet look good and sound. 

He needs weight. He may just be a hard keeper. If he worries the fence when he is alone, then he may be one of those horses that worries the weight off. 

Since the weight loss coincides with the end of winter two things may be going on. The first is he simply is not getting enough feed competing with other horses for hay. The second is the hay itself may just be p**s poor quality. Did a new load come in just before he started to lose condition? 

If this were my horse I would get him some hard feed high in fat as noted above. I would also supplement his ration with high quality hay cubes. I would try to WEIGH how much hay he is getting a day and, if possible, get an analysis of that hay. Some hay can look good and be so low in nutrition it is just a time occupier. I would also watch him out there with the other horses if they feed hay in piles and see if he spends most of his time being run off the feed by other horses. If that is the case, then putting out 3 piles of hay more than the number of horses may really help.. as will spacing the hay piles further apart. 

Honestly I can see no reason for this horse to not be ridden after you figure out how to get more weight on him. _HIS MOVEMENT IS FINE. _He does not need more supplements. He needs more or better basic nutrition.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Another thought.. do you have photos of the other horses with your horse? It may be a facility issue of not enough feed for anyone if you are boarding. 

I know, from what you have written, you would do anything for this horse. Clearly it is not a lack of care or a lack of love (especially looking at the care of his feet!).


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Add more calories to his diet. Lucerne is good. Add more. Make sure you have dewormed for everything your country gets. Here the insidious ones that get missed often are tapeworms and encysted strongyles. 

Nothing wrong with his movement, but his feet do need trimming.


Find a new vet.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

A friend told me that I will have to wait for the vet approximately 2 weeks 
But it is worth waiting for a good vet. I also called to a woman who specializes in horse’s diet (it took 25 minutes and we decided to keep in touch, send photos and inform about vet’s opinion and blood test results when I do them).

That’s how horses are given food (they live free 24/7 and have big shelter in case of bad weather). I visit my horse every single day and provide him with : vitamins, two handfuls of lucerne, 1kg of carrots, some apples, parsley, and sometimes a pear to make him happy 

























There are some photos of him throughout a few months: 
January 2012/August 2012:








August 12:








November 12:








December 12:
















February 2013:
















April 2013:
THE WORST OF ALL !!!! I decided to call the vet. Toe dragging occurred.








Now (while on pasture):









I did the spinning test as you adviced, he was a bit surprised and din't know what is it about but he managed to cross his leg easily ( a test like this 2.17min: 



 ). If it was the spine would he have problems with that?
 Thank you for cheering me up


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Honestly, I think the issue is your horse's rear end conformation that has him move like he does. I do see he has lost a LOT of condition over the winter. The earlier photos he is in excellent flesh. The photo with the lady in the red jacket is surely the worst. The next photo he looks much better. 

I don't like feeding grain off the ground.. but the facility is the facility. I suggest that instead of all the stuff you are bringing your horse now, bring him 3-5 pounds of hay cubes (usually alfalfa) and feed him those in a bucket. I would do this at the start of winter. You may have to give more. He can eat this while you are grooming him. 

Feeding off the ground in a herd like this is how horses get and stay wormy. I suspect your boy has a pile of worms and you may need to go to a very aggressive worming schedule. 

Beyond that I will say some more. This is a pretty decent horse. I mean that. I have looked at a LOT of horses and yours is solid. He has good bone, good height for his hocks, solid feet, nice roomy joints, a good length of back, a steepish shoulder and a slightly low placement for his point of shoulder. His big weakness are his undersized hind quarters and the flat croup, which cause him to move behind the way he does. In the turn test, if his back was really dangerously bad, he would have not crossed his legs or recovered.. he would have staggered behind, wobbled behind or even gone down behind. 

For a spavin test you take one hind leg and flex it to the max.. holding it in flexion for a minute (use a watch) and then let the foot down and immediately trot the horse off. If the horse is lame, it is typically a spavin. Your horse does not look spavined to me. 

I really like your horse and obviously you do as well. I would not mind owning this horse (and a lot of horses I see on the Horse Forum I would not say this about). Does he need groceries? Yes. Coulld he be suffering a large parasite load? Yes.. he is in with a bunch of other horses who may not be as diligently wormed. Is he at the end of his career? Not from what I am seeing. I would run a fecal on him, get him some high end hay cubes and get him conditioned up and continue his training. 

JMO. Nice horse.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Just another thought. When the second vet comes out, share my posts with him and ALL the photos showing this horse in good flesh and how he lost condition over the winter.. and is now coming back. Your vet will be boots on the ground.. but these photos tell a story and he/she needs to see them ALL. 

A vet sees a horse once. You see the horse daily. You know your horse. All these photos will help your vet better help you and your horse.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Sorry, but the reason your horse is dragging is probably because he is lethargic from being emaciated. Your horse needs some real food.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

MangoRoX87 said:


> Sorry, but the reason your horse is dragging is probably because he is lethargic from being emaciated. Your horse needs some real food.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would love to believe it...  . But could the vet be so wrong about his spine? :-|  He didn't even examined his blood but was certain it is his spine and left me with the news that my horse is about to retire at the age of 4,5 :/


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

m00nisek said:


> I would love to believe it...  . But could the vet be so wrong about his spine? :-|  He didn't even examined his blood but was certain it is his spine and left me with the news that my horse is about to retire at the age of 4,5 :/


Yes, he could. It's a sad fact, but there are vets out there that have no idea about what they are doing, or worse yet, don't care. Does this vet know horses? I would think that his lack of muscle right now has more to do with the toe dragging than anything. You know the feeling of walking after running for a while, when your legs feel heavy and tired? I imagine that is similar to how he is feeling, because he doesn't have the muscling to sustain movement. 

I'm a novice really when it comes to horse health, but all I can see is a horse weak from malnutrition. Feeding him carrots, apples etc is all well and good as a treat, but not as a staple part of their diet. I'm currently working on putting weight on my lease horse for winter, as he dropped some in the last few weeks. And I'm telling you, a week of hard feed (lucerne/alfalfa hay 24/7, pellets and chaff) has bulked him out immensely.

Right now, focus on getting your horse at its optimum weight. Heck, even get him fat! Once those ribs of his are covered by a nice layer, work on lunging to build his topline, and then get into riding. He's a beautiful horse, as is very obvious by the photos you've posted. He seemed to drop the weight rather quickly (unless his fluffy coat was hiding it), but you've already got him coming back nicely in that last photo. Keep it up, and you're gonna have him back to an absolute stunner in no time.

Elana has given you some brilliant advice, as she always does! Definitely, *definitely* show the vet those photos you posted of his progression.

But most importantly, don't give up hope. Even if the worst did happen and you couldn't ride him again, you would have an amazing companion. But the chances of that being the truth seem slim right now. Wait and see what the new vet says. Until then, act as though you're just fattening him up so that you can eventually ride him every day


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

This is not something that you are going to find an answer to quickly. Right now, the horse needs more weight and more muscle. Until those two major issues are resolved then he is going to have problems - most animals would have problems if they are underweight and out of shape and are asked to perform.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Again, you are seeing that divot in the spine hip area because he is too thin and there is not much muscle covering it. Plus add in a slight roach, my mare has the same thing. 

A year ago right after winter, no work from pasture.



Now, Middle of fall, muscled and fat. You can see the dip against the sky.



Dogs get this as well and it is alarming! But once they get some weight, it will disappear. 

Yes, your vet could be wrong. They are human too.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

m00nisek said:


> I would love to believe it...  . But could the vet be so wrong about his spine? :-|  He didn't even examined his blood but was certain it is his spine and left me with the news that my horse is about to retire at the age of 4,5 :/


YES. If your vet did not have you do the 180 degree sudden surprise turn.. and did not mention the horse's condition and so forth then either your vet is not a good lameness vet OR does not know horses OR was so disgusted by the horse's condition they wanted no more to do with it (or because your horse was not a $100,000 stakes winning brood mare they lost interest). 

I find incompetence with horse lameness.. especially body related lameness.. is pretty common with vets. They need to see a lot of it.. or be familiar with it. I also find that while a vet may have brilliant academics, they are not necessarily good with people. 

A good vet would have taken a fecal, examined the horse's teeth, and then proceeded to raise cane with you for having the horse thin. At that point you could have a dialogue.. because it would all be out on the table.

When realizing the horse lost condition over the winter, a good vet would have backed off and looked at the other horses, asked how they are fed, realized the others were NOT thin and probably run a blood test on your horse. A good vet would have talked about feed and suggested something different to bring this horse when you see him every day to help this horse gain condition. This horse is worth this effort. 

Not all vets are good. Remember.. the guy who graduates at the top of his class gets to be Dr. Smith. The guy who graduates at the bottom of the class still gets to be a doctor. They BOTH graduated.


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm very concerned that you think carrots and apples are a "feed".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Look folks.. this owner has a horse kept at a facility (boarding barn) with other horses. The facility feeds the horses on the ground in multiple piles and the horses are out 24/7. It appears the horses are all treated the same way and this is the one that lost condition. 

I think repeated whipping for the horse's condition is pretty counter productive. 

The horse LOSING CONDITION was one reason the vet was called AND for the toe dragging. She goes to the facility daily to check on her horse and brings the carrots and apples because the FACILITY is providing the Feed. 

Now that the grass is growing it appears the horse is regaining lost weight. 

The owner has another vet coming. The owner knows that the horse needs more condition. The owner has been informed that the horse needs more than carrots and apples. 

No one likes to see a thin horse, including this horse's owner.


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## corgi (Nov 3, 2009)

Elana said:


> Look folks.. this owner has a horse kept at a facility (boarding barn) with other horses. The facility feeds the horses on the ground in multiple piles and the horses are out 24/7. It appears the horses are all treated the same way and this is the one that lost condition.
> 
> I think repeated whipping for the horse's condition is pretty counter productive.
> 
> ...


Agreed!!! Also, the OP has stated that English is not her first language and I don't think she believes carrots and other treats are "feed". I think she is just letting us know that she also feeds her horse those items. I think the pictures prove that he is already gaining weight again and she has arranged for another vet to come out. I think she has received some very helpful information here and she is following everyone's advice.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

Thank you Corgi and Elana - you explained everythink what I meant clearly 
I know the difference between feed and treats but someone has asked me to list everything the horse eats. I also took it for granted that you know I am not a stable owner but one horse owner only and that the facility provides food. I decided to "intervene" by calling the vet because my horse was thin and other horses not and at the same time toe dragging occurred.

My another thought: I think he lost his weight quite quickly, in 3 weeks maybe? In my country there was a long winter , at the beginning of April it was about -5 Celsius degrees and then,suddenly +20. When I was riding him when it was cold he was OK but when "true spring" came he lost his enthusiasm for rides and his ribs started to stick out.

PS. You are really helpful and sound really competent  Thank you for all the pieces of advice


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Out of curiosity, what country are you from m00nisek? 

I wish you the best with your horse. Please let us know how he is doing and what vet number 2 says.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

m00nisek said:


> February 2013:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Between February and April your horse was not being fed.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

I am from Poland. 
My horse is my fulfilled dream and I want him to be healthy and in good physical and mental condition 
I will inform you about the second's vet opinion and add photos.
If not you I think I would still feel depressed but now I feel determined! BIG THANK YOU ALL  I will let you know 

BTW. 25th MARCH in my country:


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

That is exactly what I was thinking Alexs... I girl I new, lived next to a guy who didn't feed his horses all winter long...for what reason? I don't know


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

I agree, looking at the February to April picture it looks like he had absolutely no feed. In Feb he was in great condition. I would be asking the BO some questions.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

The OP said her horse is out with other horses 24/7. I think.

Is the horse fed in a sall by itself? If he is fed with other horses I'd guess as your horse got skinny, some other horses got fat. 

Are his "buddies" eating all his food?


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

A sad situation. I hope that the feed can be corrected: to not feed carrots, apples and pears by the pound and to find out why he is not getting the food he needs at the barn. And that first vet is a complete idiot or has absolutely no morals about animal care and only wants the money. 

Good luck with the new vet and speaking with the barn owner to resolve the issues. This should have been looked after as soon as the horse's condition started to deteriorate. A sad lesson learned, and I hope the OP will have success now to correct.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

As Op is in Poland, can we help out? Basic English? 

No feed February - April = your horse. 

Need new vet. 


She seems like she has a good grasp, and is smart, but I think we can make out comments less wordy.


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## Roadyy (Feb 9, 2013)

It does look like the horse was not fed or was ran off his pile of feed on the ground by other horses. You said he was the only horse that lost weight so that leads me to believe the latter was happening without intervention.

It looks like he may have finally stood his ground and stayed on his pile or was fed far enough away from the others to get his wolfed down before the others could get to him.


hopefully the new vet will give you better insight to the horse's health and condition. Good Luck as he is a really good looking animal and it shows that you love him, but need more knowledge to be better prepared for his needs. Keep digging around this site and others to fill your cup with information.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

I'd rather you make your comments as you wish - either long or short  I like reading them and I think I get what you mean(I thought you will have problem understanding me). I didn't know the abbreviation OP (so far) but now I know: so not only do I learn about horses but also new words 

This is my skinny boy from today:










I lunged him today and found out he had no problem with poles: he didn't even touch them, the same with cavaletti. I don't know W H Y? 
( Just a guess: maybe you are right about his hooves being too long?)

BTW That's his father:





I talked to BO and he told me that my horse was given feed + oats during winter. I saw some pieces of corn in it but as I said - it was him who was responsible for feeding horses. Now I know I have to learn a lot  
Since you have told me that I have to do sth about his weight I visit him twice a day and give him oats+ lucerne+vitamins in the stall so that he can eat without rush. And as I said I am going to order feed on Monday and have it on Tuesday.

BTW 2. You can watch the video I made last year. Maybe it will give you an idea how much I care about him


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## tcvhorse (Oct 14, 2012)

I just wanted to say I think he looks like a sweet boy and I hope he gets up to full health soon!


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

Wow, he looks so much better already! Those oats will be giving him plenty of energy, to say the least. Feeding him in the stall is a great idea, it's sounding likely that the other horses were the problem. Great work on your part to act so quickly on the advice you've been given. 

I can also see where he gets his good looks from - his father is stunning!


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

He is improving already. Good for you for taking such quick action. His sire is a lovely horse!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I can't believe I didn't see this thread...
OP( means original poster, by the way;-)), you said you can get St. Hippolyt. EXCELLENT feed. Reformmuesli is GOOD. They also have THE best hay pellets I have ever seen in 45 years with horses, PRE ALPIN. Get that, if you can, and, since you go there twice a day, give him 2.5kg each time, soaked, so he can eat it easily, and some Reform Muesli with it, about 1kg each feeding.
Other possibility, since the barn provides oats, get Struktur Energetikum instead of the Reform Muesli, and give 1kg a day together with the oats. That will give him all the vitamins and minerals he needs.
I suspect he also needs worming, don't know if you can get dewormers in a pharmacy or have to get it from a vet with prescription( yes folks, EU requires a prescription for dewormers), but ask for one containing Ivermectin and Praziquantel. You should have EQUIMAX, it's available EU-wide. 
Have the vet take a good look at his teeth again, he's young and could still have problems with changing from baby- to adult teeth.

Once you have the Pre Alpine and the St. Hippolyt feed, you can cut down and bring him one carrot and one apple a day....he will love you just the same


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

Hello again,
Thank you for your nice comments on my buckskin boy  I've got some good and bad news... The good news is that the lady set up a diet plan for 2 months and she will monitor his progress and change it if necessary. He is going to have two meals a day (and I will give him feed it in order to be 100% sure other horses don't eat his food):
Oats - 1 measurement buckets like this http://images.sklepy24.pl/42534358/6782/medium/york-miarka-do-paszy-2kg.jpg
St Hippolyt ReformMusli G - 2 measurement buckets
St Hippolyt Gemuse Krauter Mineralen - vitamins - 150g
After he eats regularly he feels much better - I can see it in his eyes and behaviour.
The bad news is: the really good vet with good equipment is visiting my horse on Tuesday 14.05.2013... I can't wait.
Tomorrow, there is going to be another vet and I will also ask him what he thinks. 
Equine massage also tomorrow (second time).

But the real bad news is: I talked with a vet who visited my friend's barn and I just described my horse's toe dragging and he was quite sceptic about it and told me that he can even develop ataxia . I started to cry 

This is my boy from today, can you see any improvement, or is it just me dreaming?
(by the end of the video you can see little disobedience  but it was difficult for him to concentrate on me because there were children running outside and screaming).


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

He is looking much better already. The toe dragging was most likely lack of strength due to being so thin. Ataxia? No way


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I would suggest an extruded feed to add more fat to his diet instead of more vitamins.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Ataxia? I really don't think so. He is looking so much better.

Always remember, you know your horse best. You see him every day. I know that we rely on the expertise of vets, farriers etc. But educate yourself and take the other opinions graciously, but not as a definite diagnosis if it just doesn't sound right. Those professionals are only human too despite their credentials.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Methinks you should stop talking to vets and just get on with training your horse. Really. 

There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS HORSE.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm no expert, but I think his movement is fine - more weight and more training is all he needs. He's very pretty and has a lovely bouncy step. Just wait until he's at full weight and has good muscle tone! Wow. He's going to be awesome.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

If I followed your pieces of advice, I would help my horse  
REALLY  You are great. The vet said exactly what you have said and even prescribed Equimax as *deserthorsewoman* mentioned. 

The vet examined him, checked even his heart rate. He hasn't got ataxia or spavin. His spine is OK but because he is so thin, it looks that strange. I need to feed him (and he said that the present diet is good) and exercise him - lunge him and ride (especially uphill and downhill). 
One reason he has lost weight so quickly might be the other horses and the way they were fed - very stressful situation for a low rank horse. He is going to be given AbPrazole Plus to help his stomach. I don't know whether ulcers are curable? He is regaining weight quickly, maybe there won't be the need to take him to clinic and perform gastroscopy.
These were good news for me. However, I feel sorry for him that something like that had happened. He lost over 100kg in a very short period of time. I feel guilty but little could I do because of Easter and this long may weekend in my country... 
But I am really grateful because you gave me very precious remarks about feed, exercise etc. 
Thank you.
Two weeks ago:








Today:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Already better!!!
The ulcers will heal. To prevent them in the future, make sure he always has hay or grass. As long as he always has something n the stomach, the stomach acids will digest the food, not the stomach lining. If you can find lucerne, you could give him a little before his grain meals. Lucerne buffers the acids. 
Oh, and it looks like you found a good vet. Keep him
Now we want to see progress pictures, like every two weeks or so;-)


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

He doesn't associate you with his weight loss. He doesn't even know he's lost weight.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> He doesn't associate you with his weight loss. He doesn't even know he's lost weight.


I know that but I could see him loose his enthusiasm for rides and I saw he was sad because his behaviour changed. Now he bucks in the pasture and that is uplifting  
I feel guilty because I am his owner and this is partly my fault. My unawareness. But you really REALLY helped me a lot.


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

What matters is that you are aware now. Everyone has to learn sometime and somehow. You've already done better than a lot of people in the world who are so stubborn that they refuse to take advice, let alone from people they don't even know!

You acted quickly, and the progress easily outweighs any faults there may have been on your part. He is looking wonderful, and this new vet sounds great! 

I guess what I'm saying is don't feel guilty. He could have easily gotten to the state he was in on his own, but he couldn't make the trip back to happy and healthy without your help. You clearly love him so very much.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

REALLY nice horse. Now you know and, as I said (from 3000 miles or more away and for free) there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS HORSE! 

Feed him, ride him and train him.. Or send him overseas to me.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Very happy you've received some peace of mind. It's easy to panic when a vet gives you wrong information. 

He will be just fine. I know others have said that but sometimes you need to hear it from a vet to rest your worries. That's natural. I do it all the time!

Everyone reaches a point where they need to learn something more than what they already knew. Don't beat yourself up over this. He will be alright and you learned a lot about horse feed and their needs. It's alright to question a vet and we love that you came to us for opinions and to seek out help.

I'm a bit surprised that the facility owner didnt step in when he/she saw the weight drop, and waited for you to say something before taking any kind of action... But I guess now you know that you have to pay close attention to how the facility owner runs things and ask questions or make requests if you horse isn't doing well, since they won't take action on their own.


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## TheLauren (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm so happy to hear and see the progress on your boy! I can't wait to see him in top shape. 

you are being a wonderful owner. I wish more people cared as much as you do
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## visenna (May 22, 2013)

Hi,
I'm also from Poland. Your horse has roach back, and a lot of horses I saw with this conformation issue are dragging their hind feet a bit. Currently my friend has a 13-years old gelding with the same issue, but his sound and happy, so it's just how he is. So maybe it's just that. Also seeing how thin Your horse was, check not only the oats/ grains, but if he gets enough hay during winter. It's veeeeery common in Poland to feed horses quite big amounts of grain and too little hay, and it's often causing them to get thin (I run my own stable and also have boarding horses - most of them look thinner than they should when they come to my place, even though they were fed quite a lot of grains, the problem in our country often lies within the hay/grass - most horses don't get free hay/free grass in winter/ summer, how they should in my opinion, and grains cannot compensate this in most cases). My experience shows that most stables in Poland feed in winter sth like: 5kg of oats + 5-6kg of hay (my stable 1-2kg of oats + free choice hay - it's usually about 10-12kg - for a horse working approximately 3-4times a week - and all the owners cannot belive how they horses become normal weight on this diet). So check if he gets enough forage. Also how old is Your horse? Was he always roach backed? Because if he got thin so fast, as You say, and the back got like this, think about the ulcers or similar gastric problem. Is he nervous when eating/ has some "stable vices"/ some pains in this areas: 



 ? I saw Your videos, It's May now, so if he's eating grass he should be fatter now, especially he has thin neck and withers, but if he's young horse, as I suspect, it should be ok, but it's even more important for him to eat properly when his young. hope something will help You


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Visenna, that horse does not have a roach back. It is thin; it is out of shape and might have a hunters bump, but given the improvements to diet and then the OP will be able to exercise the horse more so he will gain some muscle, he will be even better as time goes on.

I see you are new to the forum, so a point to make is to read the previous posts in a thread to see what has happened since the thread was started. Some threads die after a day or two... some go on for months - so there can be much that you miss if you read only the opening post.


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

Hello again,
This is him a week ago:


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

He looks wonderful!


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

He looks great! No worries!


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Terrific!


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

Hello!  
The treatment ended. He is sound, happy and energetic. It is great to see him play with other horses and canter in the field joyfully. He also performs much better, no toe dragging... and he seems to track up better. Now, I have to concentrate on building his muscles 
Recent photos:










































Thank you for your help!


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## ktrolson (Feb 13, 2009)

I just read through all these posts. You got some very good advice and were willing to follow it. Your horse looks wonderful again and I'm so happy to see that. Now, about that first vet (who in my opinion has no business practicing) I would go to the clinic and have a few words with him! I I would show him the before and after pictures and ask him to explain why he didn't tell you your horse was starving to death. And why he said your horse was lame when his toe dragging was due to his lack of muscles. Maybe he could learn something. I doubt it but I feel he should be held accountable. And the barn owner is at fault too. I love the fact that your horse is on pasture 24/7 but the low man gets chased off the food. It sounds like you can visit daily so when winter rolls around hopefully you can be there to make sure he doesn't get too thin again.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

He sure loves mud puddles doesn't he? I've been following this thread but hadn't yet commented, but I just had to say that he looks fantastic now! Great job.

Be aware though, that the same thing may happen again next winter/spring if you don't take preventative measures. Now you know what to look for, and what works though so I'm sure he'll be just fine!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I have never had a horse lose weight even after long bitterly cold winters. There is no way a horse should lose weight unless the amount of hay isn't keeping up with it's requirements. Your horse wasn't starving, a bit thin but that is not necessarily unhealthy. Being tubby is worse.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

One thing I noticed was in the pictures of the other horses getting fed, there was a bay that also looked thin, you could see all his ribs pretty clearly, but due to the angle, I couldn't see if he was also really thin in the hind end. I think putting him in a stall to feed him is a great way to help him build up weight. The other horse is probably also low man on the totem pole, and thus lost weight as well. I did notice in the winter pictures, there was no hay around, which they really need especially when there is no pasture. 

Your boy is definitely looking much better, I love how thick his bone is, and he's got a sweet expression. You've done good, and I can't wait to see more progress, as you work him more! Definitely keep the pictures coming!


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

I am just now seeing this thread. He's come a long way and is looking great! Hopefully now you have learned enough about nutrition and such to prevent him from losing weight again next spring. 

He's a beauty, good luck with him!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Watched the video of him in the mud puddle and all I can say is here in the US we would now be able to call him a "Clay Bank Dun..." LOL

He is looking good. 
Get on him and ride him!


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

I second what Elana said - get on that gorgeous creature and enjoy yourself.

I just caught up with what's been going on and, looking at him now, it's almost hard to believe it's the same horse. The photos and video show just how happy and healthy he is. Think of it as a learning experience - next winter, as the others have said, you will know exactly what to do if it happens again!


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## m00nisek (Jul 31, 2012)

As you said, I had to educate myself and you helped me. 
I am aware now that he is prone to ulcers so I will plan his diet in advance next year and monitor his condition and comfort. According to The Body Condition Scoring system ( http://lifeandhorses.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/henneke-BCS-score-1.png ) my friends say he is 5 out of 9 and the nutrition specialist says he is 4,5/5 too.

I don't understand what does "his bone is thick" mean? In Polish we don't use such an expression. Can you help me ?  

There is a picture of me on him (I am a poor rider but I all I need is a pleasure ride to nearby forest with friends  I also have lessons 3 times a week with riding instructor who is also a professional show jumping rider because I feel the need to improve my riding skills to make riding more comfortable for me and my horse).


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

You two look great! 

Being educated and willing to learn more is the most important thing in horse ownership. I'm glad he's doing much better now!


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow! I just went on a little journey through your thread. All 9 pages. Learned some new things myself as well! 
Congratulations on such fabulous progress with your lovely boy.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

"his Bone is thick" means his leg bones are large enough in diameter to support him and to work well. Larger leg bones usually mean long time soundness.

He is looking great! Enjoy him. Nice horse.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2013)

Hi, I know this is quite late to be posting in this forum and I hope all is now well with your horse! 

If you're still having the same issues I would definitely say change farrier. I have had many issues with bad farriers over the years and only have a select few I now trust - bad ones make issues in the hind far, far worse. In the photos of his feet his heals are too low, bringing them up and keeping the toe shorter will solve the dragging and will help him carry himself correctly. 

Your vet suggesting that he was never going to be fatter because "he is just like that" bothers me, I think if you haven't already get a second opinion from a vet other people you know trust. 

He looks like a nice horse but needs more weight and regular massage and chiropractic work. He steps short in the right hind (doesn't follow through) this definitely does mean there could be an issue but it could be as simple as a bad farrier or a sore back. 

The dip looks like it could possibly be a widows peak (rough coupling) or a roach back (both I am researching now, hence how I came across your post). I would say it is more likely a widows peak and nothing to be concerned about, but build his muscle but working him in long side reins on the lunge and feed protein rich feeds. 

Hope all is now well!


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