# Young horse that wont go forward



## mousesallee (Feb 21, 2016)

I have been helping with a new horse that i have at the yard that i ride on. He is only 6 but has been backed and done some work however, i have now got the problem where he wont move. Before he came to our yard he had been given mixed messages, this is when he was asked with the leg to go falward he was healed back by the rains. I have tried long raining him and he just stood there, this was with someone at the front to try and get him to move. I have tried lunging him with and without a person on the other side leading him, we cant use a whip on him as it doesn't do anything at all, we have tried leading him with someone on top and he moved a little then when he wants he just stops and doesn't want to go. We today did mange to get him out with a bucket of food and he would move but it got to a point that he didn't want to go any more and not even for food, the bucket of food is the best idea cant really raid out with a bucket of food every time. He's not to bad out with your other 2 though he still stops but we are able to get him going again when he sees he is getting left behind. Has anyone got and tips on how we could get him to move please. He would be a great horse if we could get him moving.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I think you need a trainer to help you.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I also think that you need someone who knows how to start a horse or how to rectify a spoiled one. 

You say a lunge whip does no good - it does if you use it correctly and I have never failed to get a horse to move if it is used on their back legs.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

If he will not move its most likely because you are not being assertive enough with your request. In the beginning phases of training horses don’t always understand to move away from pressure and you may need to be very assertive with your request, applying a lot of pressure with whatever aid (flag, cue stick, rope , etc.) you are using. We always start by with a subtle cue as if he knows exactly what we want from him, but if they don’t respond we increase pressure until we get movement. Sometimes this means a few whacks across the hind end may be required, but you do what’s required to get the result. Once you get movement you release the pressure. Horses learn from repetition so you will want to ask for movement the same way each time. You will find over the days of training that less and less pressure will be required to move him off until he moves from just a subtle cue. 

Best of luck ,


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This is one very spoiled horse. Teaching a good work ethic with good, WILLING forward impulsion is the MOST important thing every green horse needs to be taught. Everyone that has attempted to train this horse has completely failed in getting this done. The longer he goes being able to 'stall out' and NOT work with forward impulsion, the more spoiled he gets. At some point they become or nearly become a 'lost cause' with no way to fix the problem.

If this horse is going to become any kind of a useful animal under saddle, the owner needs to find someone that is willing to put enough pressure -- no matter what it takes -- to drive this horse forward and teach it that going forward is the only way he can save his life. Successfully correcting a horse that is this spoiled is probably not going to be pretty to watch. 

A horse that 'sulls' and tunes out pain and pressure is one of the most difficult kind of spoiled horses or fix.


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

I'm so disappointed at some of the responses on this thread. The suggestion to basically beat a horse up because it doesn't understand is horrific.

op - training can be done with minimal pressure. It's all about timing. A horse trained with force and fear will never be trustworthy as there will always be something it fears over you. Train with patience and trust and the horse will defer to you when afraid.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

So what do you suggest, sillystallion?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

SillyStallion said:


> I'm so disappointed at some of the responses on this thread. The suggestion to basically beat a horse up because it doesn't understand is horrific.
> 
> op - training can be done with minimal pressure. It's all about timing. A horse trained with force and fear will never be trustworthy as there will always be something it fears over you. Train with patience and trust and the horse will defer to you when afraid.


What utter tommy rot.

You have to put pressure on and how hard depends on the horse's reaction. The reward is the stop of that pressure.

Odds on that at six years old he has been started more than once and has learned how to avoid work of any sorts hence he would need a lot of pressure and chasing after. 

So, Silly Stallion, just what would you do?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> I'm so disappointed at some of the responses on this thread. The suggestion to basically beat a horse up because it doesn't understand is horrific.


This would be true, although I would not raise it to the level of 'horrific', if this was a baby or very green colt.

But -- this horse is 6. He has been ridden -- probably not by a very good rider, but make no mistake -- he knows that his rider wants him to go forward. He is NOT confused or does he 'not understand'. He is just plain SPOILED and has developed a very bad and very difficult habit to 'fix'. It is doubtful he will ever be as pleasant a horse to ride as he would have been had his first rider established 'good forward impulsion'.

After starting more than 50 horses a year for many years plus taking in many spoiled horses,* I can unequivocally say that establishing good, willing forward impulsion is the single most important thing every horse should be taught. * It is more important than teaching a horse to guide or to have control. It is very difficult to go back and try to establish it later. I would rather re-train a bolting, run-away idiot or bucking bronc than a horse that has firmly learned to 'stall out' and 'sull'.


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

I work by the principle that a sharp horse needs leg on and a dull horse needs leg off. I would completely start again and establish this in hand before mounted. If a horse can feel a fly on its side there is no need to up the pressure. 

Rather than increasing the pressure I would find the minimum pressure the horse needs and reward from there. Each time I ask with less pressure and again reward. High value rewards initially but lessening them as the horse becomes more willing. I do not consider cessation of discomfort a reward.

In my experience I have found many issues are caused by the rider blocking with the hand or seat, rather than the horse misunderstanding or being bad. Also mistimed cues can be a problem - if the horse isn't told in good time that what is asked of it is correct it will try less and less.

I'm a believer that horses are spoiled by people, not that they act spoilt. 

It is perfectly possible to control the speed and tempo of the horse without leg or hand - I am currently training my mare to do walk to canter transitions from the seat alone. All she now needs is for me to stop moving my seatbones independently to collect her walk, I then close the seat slightly, release and advance the inside hip - this results in am immediate canter transition without the need for any leg (or hand) at all.

Teach a horse to move from minimal cues (rather than kicking them on to it) and they become a pleasure to ride.


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

SillyStallion said:


> Rather than increasing the pressure I would find the minimum pressure the horse needs and reward from there. Each time I ask with less pressure and again reward. High value rewards initially but lessening them as the horse becomes more willing. I do not consider cessation of discomfort a reward.


So what is the reward? Release of pressure?


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Could that be explained more thoroughly because I am thoroughly confused by it?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

SillyStallion said:


> I work by the principle that a sharp horse needs leg on and a dull horse needs leg off. I would completely start again and establish this in hand before mounted. If a horse can feel a fly on its side there is no need to up the pressure.
> 
> Rather than increasing the pressure I would find the minimum pressure the horse needs and reward from there. Each time I ask with less pressure and again reward. High value rewards initially but lessening them as the horse becomes more willing. I do not consider cessation of discomfort a reward.
> 
> ...


I would truly like to see you do this with this particular horse. By the way, how many badly spoiled horses that sull and refuse to move in hand, under saddle, in driving lines, being led or coaxed with feed have to actually encountered and made into the light, pleasant horse you describe? 

I've encountered horses that would lay down, flip over backwards, run backwards kicking and simply 'tune out' and 'sull' when any kind of encouragement to move in any direction is tried. Tell me how many of these you have re-trained.

Of course -- all spoiled horses have been spoiled by some earlier person. The problem is that once someone has spoiled them, some other person has to come along and 'fix' it. I want to see what you describe fix a horse like this.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree fully with Cherie.

Both of us have trained horses to top levels although in very dofferent fields. 

I think Cherie would agree that teaching a young horse the lightest of aids is what we both aim for Whoch is fine with an unspoiled horse. However, if this horse is not moving when led or even for feed (which is something I would never do) then the pressure to get it to move has to be greater than his will to just stand.


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

Cherie said:


> I've encountered horses that would lay down, flip over backwards, run backwards kicking and simply 'tune out' and 'sull' when any kind of encouragement to move in any direction is tried. Tell me how many of these you have re-trained.


I too have seen them - firstly I would not assume that a horse behaving like this has tuned out. I had a mare come to me for reschooling who was just like this (rearer, spinner - both ridden and on the ground). Typical TB who had been 'saved' from slaughter. I do (or did up until this mare) backing and reschooling for a registered horse charity. This mare came to me and it was quite clear that something was amiss - according to the charity her only issue was she didn't like having her hind feet messed with. After much desensitisation she accepted having her backs picked up and finally saw a farrier. I started the rebacking process and only a few sessions in I contacted the charity and said she needed veterinary care. They said that she had seen a 'back person' and they had said there was no issues with her. The charity took her back (another story as it took 8 months and an abandonmnent notice to get them to do this) and they rehomed her as a riding horse. 

Within two weeks the mare was returned after breaking the owners arm as she came off when she reared. The charity passed her on again - they homed her with an experienced person and warned them that she was a bad tempered mare and 'quirky' to ride. The new owner rode her twice and contacted me (the powers of FB). She asked me how I had found her - I told her truthfully that I thought the mare was in pain.

The owner took the mare to a specialist equine hospital and she was xrayed. She had a mishealed fractured pelvis, kissing spines (4 affected vertebrae), a healed fracture to the eye socket and a healed fracture to the poll. The horse was immediately PTS.

That poor horse suffered for two years - lived and was ridden with a fractured pelvis for 2 years. The poor mare was in agony and all anyone could say about her was she was bad tempered.

Horses aren't malicious - if they are behaving badly the reason is usually miscommunication or pain. Only after these have been eliminated would I 'get after' a horse - to punish a horse for bad behaviour without knowing if the the horse is in pain first just doesn't sit right with me. Diagnosis of any issues should be the first port of call, not the last.

Another mare, another story. This one a gypsy cob who had been a 'pet'. She had been loved, there was no doubt of this - she hadn't however been taught to respect anyones space. She had been classed as bad tempered so she was kept in isolation so she wouldn't cause trouble at gateways when other horses were being brought in. I bought this mare as she had something about her, with the plan being that she would be my hubby's horse eventually - sadly she stopped growing at 3, if only she had grown another couple of I would have kept her.

The first thing I did was turned her away for 4 weeks with my mare so she could learn how to be a horse - my mare taught her that biting hurts, she taught her not to invade space, she taught her that if she threatened to kick she would be excluded. All the manners she needed were taught in her own language by my mare. When she came in she was a totally different horse. She still had to be taught that these manners needed to extend to people as well as other horses, but they were there and easy to reinforce - there was nothing previous to this.

I sold her after backing - within 4 hours of her ad going live she was gone. I was stunned - the first person to see her brought their trailer and took her away immediately. It's lovely to see updates that they post on her and lovely to see that she is a relaxed and happy horse, rather the tense and rude one I originally met.

The last horse I will mention is a gelding I currently own. I was a total idiot and bought him unseen as a 2yo based on a video of him moving. He's rather lovely in his paces and I thought he would be a nice project to bring on and sell in a couple of years.

He arrived and he was glassy eyed - clearly doped for transport. He was supposed to be halter broken - he wasn't. Turned out as well as not being halter broken he had a really bad attitude! You couldn't get near his head as he would snake it away from you, and if you persisted you got his back end. Training with a rope halter took some doing as he was absolutely petrified of sudden movements or even a gentle pat. His response wasn't to run, it was to attack. Slowly he came round and once his quarantine was up he was turned out with my other two youngsters. 

Straight away he turned feral - he would hide behind the others so you couldn't even get near him. You could fuss them and he didn't show any interest at all. He got worse - on two occasions when my hubby was filling the water trough he charged him from the other end of the field and double barrelled him missing his head by inches. At this point I considered a bullet - he only showed aggression, he showed no 'nice side' at all.

I really had to go against all my gut instincts to keep him in a herd and him just 'be a horse' - it was getting to the point basic care was becoming an issue due to him agression. So I'm horrified to admit that I put him isolation. Not only did I put him in a paddock on his own, I put him in a bare paddock. For four weeks he learned that everything he got came from me - I was the one to feed him - I would let him stand for a while without so by me bringing it it was more noticible (I don't believe in leaving horses without food but he went about an hour twice a day), I gave him enough water so he wouldn't drink it all but this had to be refilled twice a day.

For the first 3 days I didn't even go in the paddock with him - everything was done over the fence. He was hand fed his hard feed - the first day he wasn't interested, the second day he stood as far away as possible and stretched his neck, the third day he was leaning against the fence. It took a week though for him to accept being touched and even then it was only on his muzzle. Over the next few weeks he got closer and closer to the fence, gradually allowing me to scratch his neck, withers and eventually he turned sideways for a bum scratch. Only when he did this did I go in the field with him. All interaction up until this part had been over the gate.

Within two days he was following me around the paddock and allowing me to halter him without issue. The first time I walked up to him, haltered him and led him to the gate like a 'normal' horse was an amazing feeling and the next day I turned him out with the others. I have never had a problem catching him, or him being aggressive in the field since.

One thing I did notice about him was that he is an excessive licker when he is stressed. This concerned me so I had the vet out and he was scoped for ulcers. Sure enough this 2yo had them - he was put on a course of Guastroguard and he turned into such a lovely placid boy. 

I think all of his issues stemmed from being in pain from the ulcers and his previous owners had tried to stomp on his bad attitude rather than working out what caused it. Once I had undone all of the harm they had caused we were able to get to the bottom of it and relieve the pain, he became just like any other horse.

He is now first to greet you across the field, has been bitted, bridled and a saddled all without incident and this weekend I will start long lining him in preparation for backing him at 3. 

This is him first across the field to see me - please excuse his winter woolies and the boggy field.

MOV_0237_000 - Download - 4shared - leanne kaut

Another example of a horse trained with minimal pressure - my Welsh Section D stallion at his first (adult) show. Me being an idiot put him between two mare but he still walked like a lamb 










None of my horses are trained with force - they get a really good telling off of they misbehave (I'm no fluffy bunny - psycho horse was playing up being led today so I growled at him. This resulted in a paddy and him rearing at me, to which he got a boot in the belly. There's no way I could have done this 6 months ago with him as he would have flew at me teeth and feet.) They handle and ride with minimal cues and are extremely polite.

Any horse that is kicked or has a whip applied will always brace against you and thus block their own forward movement. The result may be faster but it will be rushed and the horse will end up on their forhand. This is not something I wish to achieve.

D boy again here - changing stables by voice alone. The horse in the middle is my mare, he is still entire.

MOV_0262 - Download - 4shared - leanne kaut

D boy a few months into ridden work. Still a way to go but he is forward in his paces and soft in the mouth.










Too much leg results in this - it's extremely rude 9and he was told off for it) but when he has been used to being ridden in an non-argumentative manner, who can blame him. This is the only time he has bucked. If he needs a 'wake up' when he is daydreaming I crack my schooling whip on my boot - we are still at a level where a whip is acceptable in competition.










Just to prove the polite stable thing isn't a fluke - my mare waiting for permission










I train with firmness but kindness and after dealing with the aftermath many times of people trying to just push a horse through bad behaviour, I would never do this myself, even out of frustration. There is always a reason and it is our job to work out the reason - and usually it isn't the horse that is at fault.

As for the walk-canter transitions with my mare I will video them when i get a chance  It's midwinter here so daylight is limited when you factor in work. I will video it though. I'm no wonderful rider - I'm hypercritical of myself, my position and everything, but I do try to be effective with minimal force.

I'm gonna shut up now as I am well aware that I have written an essay and am hijacking someone else's thread.


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## BearPony (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm not a professional and don't have nearly the experience of folks like Foxhunter or Cherie, but I would also agree that this horse will likely take a very competent and well practiced trainer in order to put enough pressure on AND release at the right moments, starting on the ground, in a halter, with basic tasks like moving forward and laterally when asked and then progressing from there.

I will agree that these horses are some of the hardest types to work with. Personally, I'll take a horse who is spooky, hot or overly reactive any day over one who doesn't move forward.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

What the heck..

He's probably fine. OP you sound young? Don't worry about getting him freed up so much right now. 

You WANT him to just go a few steps and stop. Look, it's much easier to get him going a little bit and stop, then to have him going and not be able to stop (or get off). 

If you ever do ride a horse that starts to move every time you try to get OFF them, you'll appreciate the experience you're having now. 

Here, watch this. If anyone want to play the "who has the most experience" card, Les has you all beat. 

https://youtu.be/VKTmS_ijP5c
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Ian McDonald said:


> .
> 
> Here, watch this. If anyone want to play the "who has the most experience" card, Les has you all beat.


Doubt it!

*Silly Stallion* 

There is a big difference between a horse showing aggression and a horse that has totally switched off to wanting to move. 

I would expect this particular horse is friendly towards people - he has no need to be nasty he already has it all his way.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> Doubt it!


What a perfectly dismissive way to reject a really good idea. 

Honestly I'm also appalled at how often the answer to these problems is something along the lines of "make him fear for his life". I truly feel sorry for the horses who have to put up with that treatment when it isn't even necessary. But If that's the advice that people want then I guess I've got nothing else to contribute here.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Ian -- I'll go at it from a different point of view. I know Les very well (about 40 years now) and know Tomcat Chex and several of his colts. A friend of mine in California has 2 of them. [She also has two mares she bought from me.]

I think you are a bit confused. You are not only comparing apples to oranges but more like apples to a sirloin steak. These long yearlings are not even close to being a spoiled older horse that has learned to sull and tune people out.

One horse that is older is a thick skinned horse that has stalled out (not stopped) and refused to go forward when he knows what is being asked. He is not green but is really spoiled with no forward impulsion.

The other horse has never been ridden -- but more importantly is a thin skinned, sensitive, 'feely' horse that is more prone to running scared, 'scooting' or bucking. Neither of the colts Les has Cody riding is spoiled but are very green. Neither has been ground driven

Teaching a 'good' reining or reined cowhorse IS ALL ABOUT STOP. It is easy to teach one of these horses to go and a lot harder to teach them to stop and stand still. When starting one of these thin skinned, goosy colts, I want to get them very quickly to the point where they stop the istant you quit putting 'energy' into their movement. Every one of the horses we start will automatically stop when you quit rhythmically putting energy into the movement of their lope without evry uttering that magic word "Whoa!".

Reining and reined cowhorses have a high degree of trainability if their parents were good at it (like the two colts Les had). 'Stalling out', 'sulling up' or having a poor work ethic does not come with horses bred this way. This is the main reason he does not like horses handled a lot before he gets them. He does not want them desensitized and dull; He wants them sensitive if not 'flighty. Bucking, scooting, snorting or running off is a lot more likely than refusing to go. When one moves around and stops and stands still, it is great. It is not so great on an older spoiled horse that refuses to move out. You could probably sit in one place until it was time to eat and this horse would finally head to the feeding place. He may carry where he wants to go but he is not going to let you tell him where to go.

Anyone who thinks badly spoiled horses can be trained the same way as unhandled colts just has not trained enough of them. A good trainer can literally train dozens of colts and not have to 'get after' a single one. I have yet to see the badly spoiled horse that does not require some corrective measures to turn into a pleasant and safe riding horse - particularly for novice riders to enjoy.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Anyone who thinks badly spoiled horses can be trained the same way as unhandled colts just has not trained enough of them. A good trainer can literally train dozens of colts and not have to 'get after' a single one. I have yet to see the badly spoiled horse that does not require some corrective measures to turn into a pleasant and safe riding horse - particularly for novice riders to enjoy.

Above pretty much sums it up!


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

"I have yet to see the badly spoiled horse that does not require some corrective measures to turn into a pleasant and safe riding horse"

Perhaps that says something about the methods you employ as this certainly hasn't been my experience.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

SillyStallion said:


> I'm so disappointed at some of the responses on this thread. The suggestion to basically beat a horse up because it doesn't understand is horrific.
> 
> op - training can be done with minimal pressure. It's all about timing. A horse trained with force and fear will never be trustworthy as there will always be something it fears over you. Train with patience and trust and the horse will defer to you when afraid.


How does it not understand?

And yes, you CAN make ANY horse (short of a crippled or literally stuck one) move. That does not NEED to be "beating" nor should it ever be beating- the horse knows what is wanted, the pressure starts of softly "asking" the horse to do what is wanted. No one is suggesting she randomly start beating the horse. That is absurd and abusive. Training CAN and SHOULD be done with minimal pressure. That is how you create a sensitive horse. This horse has CHOSEN to ignore the minimal pressure and been allowed to think that is ok. 

What is your solution? You have neglected to say.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Whoops- read the rest of the thread.

You did mention your solution... the part you are neglecting to address is that the horse DOES NOT RESPOND to the minimum... This horses minimum has not been found yet by the OP. So when the minimum is sky high what is your solution? When the _minimum_ the horse will respond to is a HARD swat with the whip?

No he's not malicious, he is a horse. He is not doing it to be bad, he's doing it because it works well for him. Doesn't mean that is the right response. He won't walk on a lead rope or under a rider. He will only do it when he wants to. And no it's not pain as the OP would have mentioned if he couldn't walk period! Snapping a lead rope on and asking for forward motion will NOT create pain, therefore the only thing that has changed at all is simply that a PERSON is asking him to do something instead of him doing what he wants. This horse has been ridden and handled, he is not feral either.

ALL horses should be trained with your "minimum", some are trained better than others, but trust me, the few that are NOT trained with that mindset are VERY easy to tell. As that is the extreme minority I'm not sure what your point is.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

He doesn't sound all that spoiled. Apparently you can stand at his head and lead him with someone in the saddle and he won't paw your head off, or go to bucking, or pull away and kick as he leaves, simultaneously dumping the rider. So I'm thinking that this is a 6 year old horse that's really had little to no proper schooling but is pretty good natured.

Here's a simple, pretty low-stress way to get one to go:

1. While sitting on him, start bumping his sides with your legs. You don't need strength, just rhythm and persistence. Be patient, yet persistent!

2. Sooner or later he'll take at least one step. When he does, stop bumping. The quicker you stop, the better your timing, the more sensitive he'll get.

3. If he jumps out and really goes forward, don't pull him up! Ride forward. That's how he learns to believe in your legs. It's a good idea to do this in a safely fenced area like a round pen, where you don't have to worry about stopping or turning.

4. If he takes just one step and stops, pet him! Then ask him again. 

That's really all it takes on most horses. The idea here is to get him good at "starting and stopping". Not just going, because as has been said sometimes if you work really hard to get them going and discourage stopping, pretty soon they can get to where they won't stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Ian McDonald said:


> What a perfectly dismissive way to reject a really good idea.
> 
> Honestly I'm also appalled at how often the answer to these problems is something along the lines of "make him fear for his life". I truly feel sorry for the horses who have to put up with that treatment when it isn't even necessary. But If that's the advice that people want then I guess I've got nothing else to contribute here.



I was not dismissing the way he was starting what I was saying that in years I dare say I and Cherie have had as much experience. 

As Cherie points out, starting from the beginning is easy, it is when they have been spoiled it is a different ball game.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

To just address a secondary question in this thread about dealing with "spoiled horses", my question to you is "how much pressure does it really take?" The horse is an animal that's pretty easy to dominate. For me, one single good, solid tap from a plastic bag taped onto the end of a stick is enough. That guy will be moving! 

Anything more than that just seems excessive in my view. I think it creates an attitude of confrontation that's never given me a good feeling at the end of the day. But that's me. I know we all have different values in horsemanship AND life!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Look, the horse understands the request to move. Even led, he will move, then stop when he no longer feels like moving.
He will move, when ridden with other horses , and fears being left behind,
I assume he is not even well halter broke, because a horse that leads with respect, does not decide when he has gone far enough, or where he will or will not lead
The place to start with this horse, is right back to teaching him to lead with respect, to willingly yield to pressure
Yes, he is not a bronc, and allows a passenger on his back, but that alone does not make a broke horse
Sure, get him vetted, rule out all pain, same disclaimer as always, and after that, get respect, starting right with leading. If that takes a stud shank, a Be Nice halter-whatever it takes to have him at least lead with a loose lead shank, respecting your space, letting you decide as to how far he will be led.
You apply the lightest preesure needed, BUT, you increase that pressure, until the hrose gives the desired response.next time, start out with the lightest pressure again.
This horse has not had that pressure increased until he yielded, so he basically wins Why would he respond to a light cue, as that request is never upped until he complies, and instead, food bribery was tried.
This horse is training the handlers!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ian McDonald said:


> To just address a secondary question in this thread about dealing with "spoiled horses", my question to you is "how much pressure does it really take?" The horse is an animal that's pretty easy to dominate. For me, one single good, solid tap from a plastic bag taped onto the end of a stick is enough. That guy will be moving!
> 
> Anything more than that just seems excessive in my view. I think it creates an attitude of confrontation that's never given me a good feeling at the end of the day. But that's me. I know we all have different values in horsemanship AND life!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It takes enough pressure, to get the desired response, with the person again , next time, giving the horse to respond to the lightest pressure first.
Horses soon do know, if they fail to respond to that light request, 'it becomes the wrong and hard thing to do', with responding to that light request, the easy and right thing
I don't need to use flags , plastic, ect, but use instead what I ride and lead that horse with, with the cavate, or course, the horse has been taught how to respond tot hat request in the first place.
Thus, a horse that knows how to lead, but instead decides he will make the decision as to where he will or will not be led, gets that chain shank under his chin, teaching him to respond correctly.
Ditto for a horse that balks Ask, ask louder, then demand
There are also ways to un track a horse, laterally, if you are afraid he will suddenly become unglued, and either buck or try to bolt, as some horses that balk will do


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

https://youtu.be/OTqDfb-QhNg

How would you go about it with this horse? Make him wish he were never born? He did pin his ears after all. Probably sticky to move forward too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Smilie if your idea is to demand and use a chain on him then your initial ask is being made under threat. It may work for you but I find it rather unattractive. 

Really starting to wish that I'd just left this alone. I just feel bad for the horses who end up on the receiving end of all this "pressure stacked on top of misunderstanding". But I'll probably take my own advice here pretty soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i hope not. your point of view is important and valued, at least by me.

I don't have enough experience dealing with such horses to offer any advice based on actual experience and skill, rather than any sort of book learning or just an emotional guess.

but, Ian, if you have another approach, you should lay it out, rather than going off in a huff. who benefits from that?


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

If it's seen as going off in a huff that's unfortunate. I prefer to look at it as accepting the inevitable. Not sure what else there is to say. I gave several ideas as alternatives to "getting after him".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

But thank you for your appreciation of my effort. I've always appreciated your attitude toward your horses. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

Smilie said:


> Ditto for a horse that balks Ask, ask louder, then demand


Buy why? Why must it be force? Why must it be demanded? Find a way to get the horse moving so it is a pleasant experience and you will have a much more willing horse.

People don't kick dogs because they yelp - poor suffering horses get the poo kicked out of them because they put up with it. If they try to voice their opinion they get labelled spoiled or sullen. Noone bothers to work out a kinder way to do things - a way so the horse is a partner rather than a slave beaten into submission.

There really is no need. 

And I'm not fluffy bunny either - I'm just astounded that people (experienced people) can't see the barbarism.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Addressed at me, I suppose?



> How would you go about it with this horse? Make him wish he were never born? He did pin his ears after all. Probably sticky to move forward too.


I just watched the Buck Video. I never saw the poor horse pin his ears. I only saw a horse that had been scared by putting a saddle on him when he was not ready for one and then letting him buck frantically with it. Obviously, from what the owner said, he had done much the same with them. He really proves my point that you gain nothing letting a horse buck with a saddle. Some like it; some get really good at it; and some go back to it every time they get scared later -- sometimes years later.

I would have done much less than Buck did and would have taken a lot longer to do it, but then he had to do something right then because he was at a 2 day clinic and did not have the luxury of taking a week to let the horse learn that the saddle would not hurt or scare him and that he did not have to try to buck it off. I would have saddled him while he was tied and I would have let him get used to that saddle in his own time. I would have done everything in the world that I could do to have him him NOT get scared of the saddle, again.

Sticky feet? I doubt it. I doubt I would have even needed the stick or whip or whatever he had the flag tied to. This horse would have broken out easily if someone had not let him buck with a saddle. That Genie cannot be put back in the bottle. He still might get gentle and give up getting reactive when he gets scared, but it is lot easier to teach one that than to let them get reactive and learn to do the wrong thing when they get scared.

I am not a great Buck fan. I think he is smug, arrogant and hurries things up to try to impress people on how much he can get done in 2 days. Then the owners can't duplicate the results since they do not have a skilled cowboy living at their house. If ordinary people could do what he does, they would not have the problems in the first place. I have to train horses for unskilled recreational riders to get along with after they take a horse home. Buck does not have a very good record of doing that, or at least he didn't a few years ago. What I see of his videos, he still does not impress me.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Silly Stallion it comes from fear mostly. Fear of what he might do in the future if we "let him get away" with things. Not seeing that it's the expectation of "x=y" that often creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

We feel justified in doing nearly anything that we deem necessary in the name of personal safety, but may be actively working against it at the same time. 

I saw it every day in the public stables. People trying to use this "get after him" advice and all it does is make their horse sour & want to kick as they move off. 

Most of these people just aren't mean and tough enough to -properly- terrify their horses, is the problem I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ian McDonald said:


> Smilie if your idea is to demand and use a chain on him then your initial ask is being made under threat. It may work for you but I find it rather unattractive.
> 
> Really starting to wish that I'd just left this alone. I just feel bad for the horses who end up on the receiving end of all this "pressure stacked on top of misunderstanding". But I'll probably take my own advice here pretty soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You never read my post well enough apparently, or maybe I was not clear enough

A-first a horse has to be taught to give to pressure and I have never recommended using a chain to teach them to

B only if you know that horse understands 100% how to give to pressure, but has discovered, through incorrect handling, that no plain lead shank can control him, has learned that he can either pull away, or refuse to lead where asked, then, and only then, do you use whatever it takes to convince that horse otherwise. Soon as that is clear, you can go back to using the palin halter and lead shank

There is no pressure stacked up on mis understanding, there is enough pressure used to convince a horse WHO DOES UNDERSTAND< BUT HAS learned he can refuse to comply. BIG, BIG difference.

I will give you one example. Tow mares came in to be bred to our stallion, and one had been there the year before. They were touted to 'love people', sure-they walked all over them, when led, going where they wanted to!
When the3 son came to pick those two old gals up for his mother, I was making supper, and watched as one after another of those old gals dragged him away from that trailer.
I knew they had been trailered, obviously, because they did not arrive walking over 200 miles on their own power!
I went out, took mare number one away from the Trailer, put the stud shank on , run under her chin, gave her a quick lesson in leading with respect AWAY from the trailer. Put the ordinary lead shank back on, and the horse loaded without a problem, on a loose lead shank. 
Yes, we try to train a horse, so that they never learn to pull away, balk, rear, bolt, whatever, but once they do learn that they can, we then must use what it takes to convince them otherwise.

Tom Dorrance is regarded as a father of NH
Here is an important quote from him.
"Be as gentle with a horse as possible, BUT also as firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen"
So many people get that first part, but fail to get that equally important second part

I'm not advocating using a stud shank to teach a horse to lead, but rather to have a horse that KNOWS how to lead, but has found out he can refuse to do so, afterall, he is a 1000 lb animal, and if he , through incorrect handling, discovers that he can refuse to move, can pull away, you use what it takes to fix that behavior


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

Smilie - I get where you are coming from that the people who are 'lovies' with their horses cause problems. I dealt with the outcome too. I disagree though that you have to use force or pain to get the horse to comply - there is just no need. 

Take the 'lovies' - what you did helped short term but long term is not going to be of any benefit to the horse. They're not going to want to get their horse to comply through pain/force. By working with the horse in a kind, but firm manner, you can teach the same lesson but it will be a lesson for life.

Another approach would be to use the horse's issues against it. Make what you are asking the easiest option - this does not need to involve pain or force.

A very wise horseman said 'Never teach a horse through pain or fear - there will always be something that your horse fears more than you. Teach through trust and respect and he will ask you what do do when he is afraid'


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Cherie I'm not trying to be against you. I'm against certain ideas. Though admittedly am now questioning the wisdom of that as well. 

I get that you dislike Buck Brannaman. I happen to think that he has knowledge, skills and ideas worth learning from but I'm not in his tribe. He doesn't need anyone to defend him anyway. 

I learn from everyone I come in contact with, including you. Because of you I started learning off of Boyd Rice. I also like a lot of what you had to say about trail horses. But I think that in this and other cases, you are quick to jump to the conclusion that horses need to be gotten after, and I don't think they do nearly so much as you say. I'm against labelling a horse as spoiled summarily, making assumptions based on little information that can be very injurious to horses because of what happens to them as a result. I also think that having many years of experience and being right aren't the same thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Smilie Tom also said "I know that you believe that you understood me, but I am not certain that what you heard is what I meant". 

Call it a personal bias but I don't like those chains. Too much like "now I'm going to ask you nicely, but am going to hurt you if you don't do it".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

Ian McDonald said:


> Smilie Tom also said "I know that you believe that you understood me, but I am not certain that what you heard is what I meant".
> 
> Call it a personal bias but I don't like those chains. Too much like "now I'm going to ask you nicely, but am going to hurt you if you don't do it".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dislike them too - I do use one for my stallion when in public as people seem to freak at the thought of in nothing but a headcollar. I just swayed to pressure so as not to have to feel the need to explain myself all the time.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horses are shown all the time, using a stud shank run under the chin, and they are perfectly happy and relaxed, with that chain used correctly, just like you use spurs correctly, because they have learned to respond to light inicial cues, so nether that chain has to engage, nor spurs be used for backup, to non compliance to light leg aids
This of course, implies that a horse understands first how to give to pressure, and to yield to leg aids
Watch a showmanship class on you tube. Those horses are shown in hand, with that chain run under the chin, and with that horse being respectful and light, thus that chain never engages
Far as stallions, our stallions were always handled using just an ordinary 'head collar', known here as a halter, and plain cotton lead shank. They were hand bred using a chain run under the chin, and shown at halter that way.Otherwise, even in public, just being ridden, lead around on the show grounds, they were handled using just a 'head collar>


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SillyStallion said:


> I dislike them too - I do use one for my stallion when in public as people seem to freak at the thought of in nothing but a headcollar. I just swayed to pressure so as not to have to feel the need to explain myself all the time.



People don't freak, if astallion is led around in public, with only a halter, IF that horse is respectful and behaves like 'just a horse'.
It is done all the time here, by those that show working cowhorse and reining or other performance stallions, as those stallions know when they can act like stallions, and when they have to behave like just a horse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SillyStallion said:


> Smilie - I get where you are coming from that the people who are 'lovies' with their horses cause problems. I dealt with the outcome too. I disagree though that you have to use force or pain to get the horse to comply - there is just no need.
> 
> Take the 'lovies' - what you did helped short term but long term is not going to be of any benefit to the horse. They're not going to want to get their horse to comply through pain/force. By working with the horse in a kind, but firm manner, you can teach the same lesson but it will be a lesson for life.
> 
> ...


You need to differentiate between teaching and correcting a horse that has become disrespectful.
I'm all for training horses, using trust and respect, versus fear and force, so you are preaching tot he choir!
However, once a horse, through improper handling, has learned to be disrespectful, ignor cues he darn well knows, you are not talking of 'teaching or training', but correcting bad behavior, so good behavior can then begun to be taught again


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

I think the original poster left. Don't blame her. 

Been giving this whole thing some thought and have decided that it's useless to be against anything that people choose to do with their horses. Aside from the personal aggravation of arguing I don't believe that the person who asked the original question was helped at all. 

Smilie you really should stop using Tom to justify your methods. I've noticed it in other threads as well. You're pretty far from what he was talking about and if you tried invoking him around anyone that knew him they'd correct you quickly.

Silly Stallion, you sound like you've got a good attitude toward your horses. Don't ever change. What you're talking about is real. It exists, and even "spoiled" horses can understand it.

moussey sorry your thread was hijacked by a bunch of opionated horse trainers!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I read this whole thread and my take is that, in person, on horseback, nobody would really be disagreeing with each other's methods. 

I trust that all the experienced trainers posting to this thread use patience, sensitivity, and firmness to both train and retrain horses. They just talk about it differently.


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## DragonflyAzul (Feb 24, 2016)

If the OP is still looking for help after this point maybe a new thread is in order lol

I would suggest you take a video of the horse in question as well? It's hard to give advice when I can't see with my own eyes. Too many variables and too many things left to assumption.

And always take passionate internet advice for what it's worth, an opinion from some one who has never met you or your "spoiled" horse, they can only help (or hurt) so much and in the end you are the one standing next to a huge animal who may or may not be any or all the things that people have assumed he might be.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> People don't freak, if astallion is led around in public, with only a halter, IF that horse is respectful and behaves like 'just a horse'.
> It is done all the time here, by those that show working cowhorse and reining or other performance stallions, as those stallions know when they can act like stallions, and when they have to behave like just a horse



here is where the position you occupy on the globe comes into effect. what SillyStallion says may be true in her/his area ; The UK (right?)

while in Smilie's area it's quite different. 

I believe that what horse's understand, how the react and learn is fairly universal, thus good training should be fairly universal, since you are training the same "soul" (albeit for different purposes). but, how humans react to horses , and think about them , differs quite a lot by region.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Well that was a wild read I had been avoiding for a long time. Wish I had showed up earlier, I could've had some fun with it as well.

I think a lot of the things stated here by sillystallion is "minimal pressure" and they continue to return to that statement. - That's great. I mean, totally. MInimal pressure that the horse needs and all. Great. 

The issue is, the minimum pressure could still be high pressure. I've got a mare who came to me pretty dang spoiled. I am not interested in fuzzy wuzzy cuddle time. I am the head horse, I am the one who directs the horses feet - Anything other than that is putting myself, the horse, and others at risk. So when the horse sulls up - Yeah, I'm gonna ask with feather light pressure. If the horse doesn't move, that pressure is going to increase. And increase. And increase - Until Precious decides she's had enough and wants to go forward. I do not care how hard I have to get after one, if they do not respond to my nice feather pressure then they will be shown how. When I ask again - I will repeat that. Starting with feather pressure. Very, very quickly that horse is going to learn to move away from the light touch instead of the big one. 

However if I never increased the pressure, if I never moved above that of a fly on it's rump - They could very easily learn to just ignore me. Dead sided horses exist. Sulled up horses exist. Spoiled horses exist. These are difficult to fix and not always pretty. 

The other thing I have a problem with is the "take one step and pet him" approach. That's BS to me at this stage in the horses life. If this was a feely cowhorse colt of mine, maybe - but this horse is NOT one of those. No amount of wishful thinking would make him so. What happens when you get a horse who you let take one step and quit - They do exactly that. They quit. They learn to take a step, not to move forward and free up. See it all the time with horses, particularly show prospects who are started by novice riders - They go for a bit, then they quit. It's right up there with when you teach a horse to canter, "let them take a few strides and stop" - That's not teaching them forward. That's teaching them to give up. That's teaching them that it's okay to just flop around and be unmotivated. I don't know about you guys - But that doesn't work for me.

I fully expect effort. Every time. They don't even have to succeed, they just have to be willing to try. It's like kids, I can't even tell you how many things I tried as a child - Basketball, volleyball, softball, track, and I hated every single one of them. I was terrible at it. Yet Mom never scolded me for being bad at it, and when she realized I hated it she let me quit and it was no harm done. However - When I would be a spoiled little terrorist and refuse to take out the trash, or wash the dishes, or I "don't wanna!" or "But I'm tiireeed!" you bet I got reprimanded. I feared my mother over all else for that reason. You bet I learned how to do things properly, to - And I don't quit or get "too tired" anymore as an adult. 

You get to be the horse's friend after they respect you, not before. There's plenty of times for hugs and treats after they become model citizens.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think that there IS a place for a creative approach , that is not simply a matter of apply SO much direct pressure that the horse has no option but to explode forward.\
I wouldn't know if it's true in the situation here, but depending on the horse, some horses will certainly move forward from that kind of pressure, but they will always carry heaviness in them, from then on, due to resentment. they won't be "broken" out of that frame of mind, only temporarily. they will always be moving forward with a sense of holding back, not out of laziness, (since they actually expend more energy resisting pressure than in working), but in a distrust or suspicion of the human.

to get such horses to "buy into" the idea that actually working is easier than resisting can take some finesse. Can I do this? no, because I get ****ed off and want to force the horse. (that's my way), can my trainer do it? yes. she can get the lazy horse moving with very little actual kicking or swatting.

does THIS horse come under that category? I don't know. I just wanted to add to the discussion that I think it IS possible to get a sulled up horse to become more forward, without explosive force.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I mean sure, if you want to talk about some creative approaches then that's fine too. However I'd be interested in seeing what those are in practice.

I've come across horses who get locked up either behind or the front, but that also cannot be addressed unless the horse is moving forward. I suppose you could yield the hindquarters and forequarters and try to "unlock" the forward motion that way, though I see it as rather inefficient and not as effective as simply displaying to the horse that you are in charge.

I never understand why people shy away from direct pressure. Perhaps it's because they still believe it is abuse? Horses are instinctual and have a herd mentality - When the head mare comes up to another horse with it's ears pinned and the other horse doesn't move, she's going to bite, kick, strike, whatever she can to make the horse move. And she isn't going to stop until one of two things happens - 1) The other horse moves and she remains in charge, 2) The other horse proves to ignore her long enough that she gives up, and/or fights back, and proves to be more dominant than her.

It is in fact that simple as herd hierarchy. There's not a complex reason behind it, it's just simple common sense behavior to the animal. Unless the horse displays signs of debilitating pain in which it can't even possibly take one step forward without collapsing, I still expect them to walk when I say walk. I have no intentions of losing my dominant role in the herd.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

believe me, I don't shy away from direct pressure. but, I just know that I've seen how the horse I ride sulls up even more when I do it. and when my trainer works, she uses less pressure, but gets better results. she has a way of getting a hrose to WANT to go forward, and the horse ends up feeling good about it, not resentful.

I know, and she would tell me this, that it is based on CLARITY of communication. she has this ability, while I just get mad and push harder. with most horses, you don't HAVE to get mad or push that hard. 

in any case, I don't know how to do it, but I can say that force is NOT the only way. it is, however, more challenging, and takes more finesse to train successfully without extreme force. if a dose of very firm pressure will free up the hrose, I'd do it, and I wouldn't call it abuse, either.


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## DragonflyAzul (Feb 24, 2016)

Sounds like your trainer has excellent timing! Among other things, I am sure. I have been in a similar situation lol


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

she does, and I don't. I am not saying the OP can do this, only that not every horse that is sulled up like this will be cured by a huge application of pressure.

also, applying pressure does not necessarily mean hitting a hrose. you can get a pretty big reaction with a flag, too. sometimes.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

There is a huge difference -- to the horse anyway -- between having a good rider 'ride a horse through' a problem and actually 'curing' the problem so it does not pop back up with a less confident rider later on.

I found this out many years ago. The first horses I took in as a public trainer were mostly spoiled horses. They had a myriad of problems from bucking and bolting to rearing, spinning around and being barn sour. In nothing flat, I could ride these horses anywhere I wanted to go with absolutely no problems. I didn't have to put much pressure on them because I had the skill -- the timing and feel -- to ride them. I could get their owners to come and take a lesson or two, could coach them through problems and sent them home with a big grin on my face. Mission accomplished!

But, these horses would go home and within a week to a month, I got a call that 'Poopsie' was rearing again and would not leave the barn. I had not fixed anything. I had just ridden the horse through the problem they had. They tested their rider when they got home and gradually (or immediately) went right back to their old behavior. I had not 'broken' them of the habit. I had just skillfully gotten them to NOT do it with me on them. Their rider went home and 'stole' a few rides and the problem came back all over again.

I tried all kinds of methods to keep horses from going back to old habits. Finally, I found that the only thing the worked very well was pure old punishment -- and it had to be severe enough to make the horse 'give it up' completely. 

This was not what I started out wanting to do. I was convinced when I was younger and very idealistic that I could get everything done without force. I was convinced that I could do it the right way and the horse would see the light and continue to do it that way.

I finally woke up to the fact that the best trainer in the world could get any horse to do anything that the horse and rider could both do. A good trainer can put about anything that's possible into a horse's head -- BUT -- the trainer has not been born yet that can take anything out of any horse's head. All ANY trainer can do is convince a horse that it is in their best interest to NEVER do something again.

The only other thing that works in the long term is for a skilled rider to ride that horse forever. I have literally seen a horse that had been badly spoiled. He was given free to a good rider that 'fixed' the horse and rode him for several years. More than 5 years later the horse was sold. Within a month it was rearing as badly as it did in the beginning -- maybe worse. This has not just happened with 1 or 2 horses that I have seen. It has happened many times over with horses I have known.

It is just the nature of horses. If you don't want anyone to ever have to 'get after' a horse, then get an untouched one and never make a mistake with it and never let it get spoiled. This is one of the main reasons we raise our own prospects and try to never let them make a mistake.

They are 'creature of habit' and simple 'good riding' will never take a bad habit out of a horse's head.


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

Smilie maybe they reverted with the owner because they weren't scared enough. Most eoisodes of rearing are caused by pain - a one type if rider can stop the rearing by dominating the horse a caring rider would stop the rearing by eliminating the pain. Ive never yet known a horse to rear where it wasn't caused by pain. To not eliminate the cause but to tell the horse to suck it up makes someone the worst of the worst in riders.


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

Smilie - you may have stopped them bucking but didn't find the reason why they were bucking in the first place. A good trainer would eliminate the cause, then work with the horse. By failing to do this it is doing the horse and the owner a disservice. If the owner is the issue - work with them rather than the horse. If the owner isn't comfortable with the methods you suggest then look at the methods and find something that will work for the combination.


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## DragonflyAzul (Feb 24, 2016)

You've never seen a horse rear because it would rather go left then right? Would rather follow a group then be told to seperate? Rearing can be caused by pain but I've seen a fair amount of horses that do it for other reasons, many times simply because they didn't want to do what they were asked and were willing to fight it.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

There are millions of reasons a horse could display bad behavior. A black and white statement like "rearing is caused by pain" is my first red flag that the experience on this one is lacking. Not everything in the horse world can be traced back to pain. Sometimes it really is just plain ol attitude.


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## SillyStallion (Feb 7, 2016)

SorrelHorse said:


> There are millions of reasons a horse could display bad behavior. A black and white statement like "rearing is caused by pain" is my first red flag that the experience on this one is lacking. Not everything in the horse world can be traced back to pain. Sometimes it really is just plain ol attitude.


My first red flag would be someone who wouldn't eliminate this first. Take the mare who came to me with a 'bad arritude' - she had a fractured pelvis. For two years people had tried to ride her through it - horrific!

Calling someone who would eliminate pain first and foremost doesn't show them as inexperience, it shows you as outdated and cruel in your training methods. Eliminate pain first, not last...


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

SillyStallion said:


> My first red flag would be someone who wouldn't eliminate this first. Take the mare who came to me with a 'bad arritude' - she had a fractured pelvis. For two years people had tried to ride her through it - horrific!
> 
> Calling someone who would eliminate pain first and foremost doesn't show them as inexperience, it shows you as outdated and cruel in your training methods. Eliminate pain first, not last...


Um, show me where someone said they don't do this. I have no cred in terms of training experience, but simply as a human reader I can tell that you are putting up straw man arguments here.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

So the horse can walk just fine but when a leadrope is snapped onto his halter he is suddenly in crippling pain?

Why are you so eager to prove other people wrong? SH is outdated and cruel because she pointed out that your statement was very black and white? Who's the one doing the attacking here..

Yes, pain should ALWAYS be ruled out. However, it's not even relevant to the original thread. How is asking a sound horse to move forward causing pain? It's not like it's only under saddle or something. If the horse can walk on the ground it is capable of walking on the ground on a lead.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

It's cool. I'm just an outdated, cruel person who beats horses until their rumps have welts and have no sense of when a horse is in pain. I ride two year olds til their legs fall off and when they're done I feed them to my mean protection dogs and buy more two year olds.

Come on. That is a logical fallacy argument if I ever did see one. Instead of directly telling me I am wrong, you're simply telling me that I'm a terrible trainer and person, and putting words into my mouth. Ad hominem, my friend.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ian McDonald said:


> I think the original poster left. Don't blame her.
> 
> Been giving this whole thing some thought and have decided that it's useless to be against anything that people choose to do with their horses. Aside from the personal aggravation of arguing I don't believe that the person who asked the original question was helped at all.
> 
> ...


Look, that quote came directly out of Western horseman, attributed to Tom Dorrance. 
Sorry, I can't re -call the issue, but if you can in fact, find someone else that deserves the credit for that qoute, I'll be happy to use them
There are more horses killed by being spoiled, allowing them to become disrespectful, so that their futures , not due to any real fault of their own, but by people who do not respect a horse for what he is, becomes limited at best, or non existent at the worst.
The all breed horse auctions are full of them.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SillyStallion said:


> Smilie maybe they reverted with the owner because they weren't scared enough. Most eoisodes of rearing are caused by pain - a one type if rider can stop the rearing by dominating the horse a caring rider would stop the rearing by eliminating the pain. Ive never yet known a horse to rear where it wasn't caused by pain. To not eliminate the cause but to tell the horse to suck it up makes someone the worst of the worst in riders.


UMM, now you are giving me credits for Cheri`s post, not that I don`t agree with her.
I raised and trained mainly the horses we bred and raised for the very reasons Cheri mentioned. I also declined to train outside horses, not just because I wanted to keep my non pro status, but I did not want to deal with problem horses others created, nor many of thew owners that go with those horses.
Thus, my horses loaded, no problem , when they were asked to for the first time-going on a trail ride out west, to a show, or to a new home. Because they learned respect, had good minds, I never had to use more that very light cues
Only horses that I had to reform, were the few I bought in that group, who came with baggage. 
My son, though, did train outside horses, plus we had mares in for breeding.
The best colts to start were the ones some owner had not mishandled, and were basically handled very minimally 
As ateenager, I did ride a horse that reared and went over backwards. My misguided step Dad, bought me a spoiled Anglo Arabian stallion, just because our work horses were mares.
I consider myself fortunate that I did not have my spine crushed back then


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I disagree that all horses rear because of pain. Obviously it can be the cause but most do so because they know they can frighten the rider into dismounting. 

I have had more than one horse come as a confirmed rearer that had no reason to rear other then to get out of work. It took less energy than bucking.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A good example of how a horse has learned to frighten riders by rearing. 

He met his match with Paul! 

Of this horse was in pain it would not be walking as freely as it does. 

The other thing to note is how Paul has no stirrups so if the horse does go over he can bail clear.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I wonder why he didn't 'tap' this horse? I wonder if he did some other time?

Speaking of Paul -- I have not had an e-mail conversation with him in several years. Is he still in Japan?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horses rear and buck for many other reasons then pain. A good horsemen can tell when there is a pain related problem or, if in doubt, rules it out.
Horses rear and buck, to balk, intimidate a rider, and do so, because they learned they can
That spoiled stud I had as a kid, too stupid not to get on a horse that reared and went over backwards, did so, because he was pastured with those two draft mares and did not want to leave them. He would also try to run me against a fence, or under the barn bridge to the hay loft. I, being a kid with no other tools, besides determination and a degree of fearlessness
The only other rearer I ever had, was that mare I bought off the track. Fortunately, I was more equipped, knowledge wise , at that time in my life to fix her both of rearing and halter pulling, and then raised some pretty nice foals off of her.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Cherie, he moved to Singapore. 

I don't think he tapped this horse, there was another horse he went out to see that bucked and he just rode it with no tap. He doesn't always do it.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> http://youtu.be/VKkl8jbe0Ks
> 
> A good example of how a horse has learned to frighten riders by rearing.
> 
> ...


What I like is how he explains the thought process, and I would like to point out as we are all horse abusers how he specifically says he does NOT want to take him down on the gravel as it's not safe. (OK well he doesn't phrase it like that lol, but that is how horse people talk- I know I do it all the time!) He does what needs to be done, without harming the horse.


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## teakwood (Aug 20, 2014)

Cherie said:


> This is one very spoiled horse. Teaching a good work ethic with good, WILLING forward impulsion is the MOST important thing every green horse needs to be taught. Everyone that has attempted to train this horse has completely failed in getting this done. The longer he goes being able to 'stall out' and NOT work with forward impulsion, the more spoiled he gets. At some point they become or nearly become a 'lost cause' with no way to fix the problem.
> 
> If this horse is going to become any kind of a useful animal under saddle, the owner needs to find someone that is willing to put enough pressure -- no matter what it takes -- to drive this horse forward and teach it that going forward is the only way he can save his life. Successfully correcting a horse that is this spoiled is probably not going to be pretty to watch.
> 
> A horse that 'sulls' and tunes out pain and pressure is one of the most difficult kind of spoiled horses or fix.


Totally agree with this!!! I had one. Came to me spoiled and then he had my number quickly!! If he didn't want to go anymore on the trail, he's just stop and there was no moving his feet. One time I did get so mad and whopped him on his *** with my riding crop. His ears pricked forward and he moved perfectly out and gave me the best ride ever that day. Listened to everything I asked him to do that day. could I do this EVERY single ride - no. I was not that confident rider. It just happened that day I wasn't thinking and I had had enough. The next time he stalled out, I gave him a tap and he bucked. Well, that scared me and he knew it!! It went downhill from there. I ended up selling him to a trainer friend. She takes NO crap from horses. She really didn't need to do much with him. just had to show him that she's in charge and he needed to do as she asked no matter what. He really never challenged her. they are still together and doing great. I know for myself, I don't do well with horses that need a SUPER confident rider and ready to do whatever it takes for them to knock it off and just get going like a civilized citizen. My old mare has opinions but she never, ever challenges me. She might ask or question but I just give her a nudge and she's like- ok, whatever you say. So she and I are a good match.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Very interesting read, especially when it seems that, as we are all so good at, a heck of a lot of assumptions are made.

Seems anyone who gets 'strong' is abusive, but it seems no one explores what is a persons strong.

To those who advocate using the same level of pressure over and over again, well that won't always work. Gibbs, bless his little heart had spent years ignoring the riders that he carried safely around, so I bought a totally safe horse, who believed that whatever I wanted, slow was good, slower better. He could happily ignore leg requests all day, squeeze, nudge nudge nudge, kick, just got "yeah, when I'm ready" 

I started riding with a dressage whip, and stopped 'nagging' First time, nudged, nothing, tap with whip.....and suddenly I had his attention. For a couple of rides we had to repeat, he quickly remembered that a nudge means MOVE. He was never beaten up, marked, or abused. Sometimes you have to shout once to get the attention, then you can whisper again


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Very interesting read, especially when it seems that, as we are all so good at, a heck of a lot of assumptions are made.
> 
> Seems anyone who gets 'strong' is abusive, but it seems no one explores what is a persons strong.
> 
> ...


I think that is exactly what many of us, certainly myself have been trying to say all along!

Also put in the 'rule out any pain' disclaimer, not that I think that is the problem here, but if in doubt, do so. No one is recommending to get after a horse that truly is in physical agony!
No one is also suggesting to use the 'demand', level on a horse that does not understand the request. You teach that horse first what the cue means

Now that we got that part out of the way,on a horse that darn well knows what t is being asked and gives you the equine 'finger',you then amplify your request, until that horse complies. Next time, you give the horse the chance to do the right thing, and again ask with the lightest cue first
Don't ask a horse that understands some request-be that to ride out alone, lead, ect, unless you are able to ensure compliance, otherwise it becomes negative training, and that results in a spoiled hoese


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## mousesallee (Feb 21, 2016)

Foxhunter said:


> I also think that you need someone who knows how to start a horse or how to rectify a spoiled one.
> 
> You say a lunge whip does no good - it does if you use it correctly and I have never failed to get a horse to move if it is used on their back legs.


The wip doesn't work, it never has and its finding away around it that means that we could get him moving. We have now found a falg that helps, no matter the wip would never work.


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## mousesallee (Feb 21, 2016)

We cant use pressure on him not leg nor whip it doesn't work he stands there and looks at us, I have found out that it would seem that he had been ill treated and beaten in someway to try and get him to move before we had him, this means that it doesn't work at all. We are now trying to use a flag that is moving him on the lung.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A horse that has been beaten, trained aggressively, is over reactive to things like legs, versus tuning them out
He might have been ridden with someone going to the spur or whip first, never getting a chance to respond to light cues, and having no reason to do so, that he just tunes them out, but more likely he was never asked strongly enough, until desired response was achieved
Tell us how you use your legs, and how you ask him to go forward on the ground, using that whip.
I assume he is halter broke, and knows how to lead-if not, you need to start right back there.
Horses learn by pressure ,and , most of all, by release of that pressure, when they make an effort to comply, building on that understanding.
if he understands the command to move, and you are giving the cue correctly, you ask, then if nothing, ask louder, then if still nothing-demand.
Instead if you never up that demand, when the horse ignores the cue, he very well might just stand there , giving you the 'equine finger'. Does not mean he was abused


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Can you put up a video?


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## mousesallee (Feb 21, 2016)

Over the last few weeks we have being doing a lot of ground work witth him, getting his trust, this was one of the big probmles that we had found. After the other qweek i have seen how he would of been treated and that has been with him just being pulled and beeten. We are now able to get him out infront with the others and he is slowly getting there with the leg understanding what it means. We have also found out that he is yunger than what we were frist told, it seems he is between 3 and 5 nit 5 coming up 6 .


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I Am glad you are working it out. 

It is very easy to tell a horse's age especially at three or four as he is changing from milk teeth to permenantly ones. There is a big difference.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm glad you're making some progress but I've seen lots of horses like that one that were used in Trekking Centres for years - they were handled and around people from birth, often bred by Traveller's and have no fear whatsoever of having someone on their backs because of the way they've been treated - they can also have more tolerance of pain related punishment because they often aren't treated very kindly
A lot of them just shut down like that one has but to be honest some are just downright stubborn and don't want to work
The horse is calling the shots all the time, he'd lead when he felt like it and then when he stopped feeling like it he wouldn't, he's so entrenched in his dislike of work that even food won't persuade him and I have seen people beat these sort of horses up really badly and they'll just stand there and take it, they're so desensitized to it.
Right now he's moving forwards because he's following his friends - he feels attached to them and doesn't want to let them go without him. He might learn what the cues are this way - you'll only know that if he obeys them independently of the others but a lot of the time these sort of horses just follow the one in front in crocodile fashion and if you remove the one they're following they go back to standing still and refusing to move again


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## mousesallee (Feb 21, 2016)

He has had a bad start in life but he is going out infront and is verry very happy he isnt really like folowing a such it it more to do with that he has no confidenc in what he is doing, once he gets it in an area and he will go out infront when he is in these areas. he was seporated the last few weeks from the other horses to give him more confidencs, this is because he has always been bulied from the other horses and the people that havelooked after him. He is slowly getting there. He is responding to leg so much more. when we frist got him even if he was out with the other horses he would alwasy stop now he keeps moving just looking arond at where he is and he is slowly getting better with this


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Subbing as it looks like it's full of good advice! Should have come here instead of starting a new thread lol


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