# Real Dressage!



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Nice arena.

No comment on the "dressage".


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## Dressage10135 (Feb 11, 2009)

Kevin, why do you consider this real dressage? I'm just curious!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I have one thing to say

DROOOOOOOL!

And, I am so not worthy of riding a horse like THAT.....yet!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Dressage10135 said:


> Kevin, why do you consider this real dressage? I'm just curious!


Because he is talking about the real art of dressage being about communication with the horse, and how proper communication is the core...

That's why I would call it real dressage, anyway


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I have one thing to say
> 
> DROOOOOOOL!
> 
> And, I am so not worthy of riding a horse like THAT.....yet!


Pretty talented horses.. but I just don't feel that way about it *shrug*


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

You know the name Nuno Oliveira? He is considered by many to be the greatest 20th century dressage rider. I think he died in the 60's, I know he is long gone. There is not a lot of quality footage of him riding, but wathcing this man's seat is a joy to behold.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Wow, I am gratified to know that you all know of him. He is my absolute idol.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> You know the name Nuno Oliveira? He is considered by many to be the greatest 20th century dressage rider. I think he died in the 60's, I know he is long gone. There is not a lot of quality footage of him riding, but wathcing this man's seat is a joy to behold.
> 
> Nuno Oliveira - YouTube


Now THAT is someone who makes me wish I was born 60 years earlier, one ride under him, thats all I ask for! What an amazing man


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> Wow, I am gratified to know that you all know of him. He is my absolute idol.


Tiny, not knowing of Nuno as a dressage rider, is like not knowing what canter is. He was such an influential figure in the dressage world, such an amazing horseman


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## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

I would give my right arm just see what that barn looks like! never mind the horses, my life would be complete to just stand in that arena - it doesn't compare to the arenas we have around my place.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't know if this is considered "dressage" by some but I sure liked what I saw. The horse is moving very lightly, the reins are not tight and there isn't any mouth chomping and lathering. I also liked the comments he makes about his horse listening to him so there can be communication.

The Nuno Oliviera video is great. I've seen it before and it's amazing what that guy can do with no visible cues!


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Oliveria is amazing. You can't really tell where the horse ends and he begins. 

You guys ever see Bartabas? He's pretty good too.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

He uses "spotting" , just as do ballet dancers, to keep from getting dizzy during turns.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

Spyder said:


> Nice arena.
> 
> No comment on the "dressage".





Dressage10135 said:


> Kevin, why do you consider this real dressage? I'm just curious!


I think majority would agree this is a better ride than 80% of horseman put out. Probably better than what most dressage riders put out too.. Can't we at least compliment the video on that much? :lol:

LOVE the arena... tearing mine down and starting over tomorrow... lol


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Dressage10135 said:


> Kevin, why do you consider this real dressage? I'm just curious!


I don't pretend to know anything about dressage but if that's not dressage then it should be. That horse with that rider could probably do any discipline and make it look good.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

How about this? It's not--and doesn't claim to be--"dressage," but it's probably about the best horse training I've ever seen.


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## KDeHaven42 (Sep 21, 2010)

Guy McLean is possibly the most amazing man ever, Got to see him work his horses live at PA National Horse Show this year and it literally took my breath away. 

I'm curious, not judgemental when I ask this: What's going on with the first video, why are people saying "no comment on the "dressage" and the like? I really don't know much about dressage at all, so I'm just confused, is it the bit in the horses mouth or something else that I'm not experienced enough in the discipline to see why people aren't thrilled with the guy. (Is it the mustache? It has to be, right? Cuz it's outta control haha) Just hoping to learn a thing or two, not bash or judge


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> How about this? It's not--and doesn't claim to be--"dressage," but it's probably about the best horse training I've ever seen.


:shock: THAT'S the most amazing thing I have ever seen!

I'm interested in why you guys didn't like the original video either. I don't know a lot about Dressage, but I thought he looked wonderful and I LOVED the horses (and the mustache :wink


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

OuttatheBlue said:


> I'm interested in why you guys didn't like the original video either



Too many errors.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

KDeHaven42 said:


> Guy McLean is possibly the most amazing man ever, Got to see him work his horses live at PA National Horse Show this year and it literally took my breath away.
> 
> I'm curious, not judgemental when I ask this: What's going on with the first video, why are people saying "no comment on the "dressage" and the like? I really don't know much about dressage at all, so I'm just confused, is it the bit in the horses mouth or something else that I'm not experienced enough in the discipline to see why people aren't thrilled with the guy. (Is it the mustache? It has to be, right? Cuz it's outta control haha) Just hoping to learn a thing or two, not bash or judge


Lucky you!!! You must have learned so much just by observing him up close, let alone working with him!!

As for the video..it just seemed like the horse did what was asked but I didn't really see any passion on the horse's end. It was more like an array of tricks than dressage to me.. which dressage is in plain comparison a dance.

Beautiful horses but just not my cup of tea.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I don't know enough about dressage to comment to that end, the horse was light and responsive, that I liked. BUT, I want that arena!!!! WOW!


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## Loyalty09 (Apr 23, 2011)

I saw Guy McLean at Equine Affair last year....no words. He was amazing.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

KDeHaven42 said:


> Guy McLean is possibly the most amazing man ever, Got to see him work his horses live at PA National Horse Show this year and it literally took my breath away.
> 
> I'm curious, not judgemental when I ask this: What's going on with the first video, why are people saying "no comment on the "dressage" and the like? I really don't know much about dressage at all, so I'm just confused, is it the bit in the horses mouth or something else that I'm not experienced enough in the discipline to see why people aren't thrilled with the guy. (Is it the mustache? It has to be, right? Cuz it's outta control haha) Just hoping to learn a thing or two, not bash or judge


I think it is that the horse is kind of heavy and looks not to be enjoying himself in part of the video. The rider is very good, but is not nearly as "quiet" as Nuno , and the horse is a bit unconsistent. 
I agree that Brenderup rides very, very well. I couldn't touch him with a 20 foot pole. There is just something about Nuno that is pure magic. He rides like he's just melting Chocolate up there, like he's in a heavenly daydream, and the horse is so happy. you watch Nuno and you see the horse change from one direction to the other and you see Nuno do no more than change the angle of his head! His use of the aids is more subtle than subtle. And the horse looks like, "oh, man, this guy is so easy to understand"..


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## mojoandxman (Oct 24, 2011)

it doesnt look fun.. it looks nice if yur that kind of person but otherwards it seems boring and very hard. i just like the normal dressage, cantering around, serpintines, figure 8's, turn on the forhand, walk trot canter transitions and i am curently teaaching my horse piaffe


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

That is called "trick training".... true Dressage teaches the horse to improve his body in a relaxed manner and would not accept the choppy, tense, sloppy and incorrect gaits shown in the video. Any idiot can hop on a horse in a curb bit like that and teach it tricks. I am far more impressed by someone able to correctly hold a rein with contact and teach the horse in a relaxed manner with correct, pure gaits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> That is called "trick training".... true Dressage teaches the horse to improve his body in a relaxed manner and would not accept the choppy, tense, sloppy and incorrect gaits shown in the video. *Any idiot can hop on a horse in a curb bit like that and teach it tricks. *I am far more impressed by someone able to correctly hold a rein with contact and teach the horse in a relaxed manner with correct, pure gaits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know a lot of idiots and not every idiot can do that! I see a horse that is doing as it's asked the best it can. It's not fighting in any way. The horses body belongs to the man as it says in the video. They both look quite relaxed. As far as the gaits go I am not enough of a dressager to tell the difference but I really like how the horse handles. I think the horse and rider could cut a cow or trail ride or jump and it would look just as effortless because the rider is controlling the life in the horses feet. If the gaits were imperfect maybe it's because the horse is doing everything it's capable of at this time.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> I know a lot of idiots and not every idiot can do that! I see a horse that is doing as it's asked the best it can. It's not fighting in any way. The horses body belongs to the man as it says in the video. They both look quite relaxed. As far as the gaits go I am not enough of a dressager to tell the difference but I really like how the horse handles. I think the horse and rider could cut a cow or trail ride or jump and it would look just as effortless because the rider is controlling the life in the horses feet. If the gaits were imperfect maybe it's because the horse is doing everything it's capable of at this time.



I am no expert, don't get me wrong. However, that horse does not look relaxed in the original post. If he was relaxed, and his body belonging to the man, he would not lose the enagagement with the hind end in the way he does. He looks stiff, and at 0.56 he isn't so light with his hands.

The second horse looks just as stiff- the trick training is correct. Its being done, and the horse is doing it, but it doesn't look happy, relaxed or comfortable


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Once the quality of paces is lost, you know that there is tension in the work. The canter is no longer even close to a canter, the trot irregular to the point that it could be mistaken for unsoundness. 
Impressive trick training on horses bred to collect, but not 'real dressage'


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> I think the horse and rider could cut a cow or trail ride or jump and it would look just as effortless because the rider is controlling the life in the horses feet. If the gaits were imperfect maybe it's because the horse is doing everything it's capable of at this time.


Well.. they COULD do it.. but there isn't any PASSION.. no FIRE driving the horse to go "Hey!! What should we do now?? I'm waiting to hear from you!!" This horse is more like "umm.. okay here you go.. alright, now I guesssss I can do this.. yep.. okay I guess we're done.." 

If you watch the videos posted by tinyliny and bubba, you can see the excitement and happiness in those horses.. even the loose ones in bubba's video! If horses could smile, their cheeks would be hurting!

Well the gaits were probably far from ideal because the horse didn't have his entire heart into it.. if he did, then it'd be a lot more consistent. But I think even so.. it was just an aid to cue a trick rather than a movement.


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## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr (Oct 29, 2011)

I did not like the original posted video either. I also agree the horse does not look relaxed or comfortable. I saw tight reins most of the time (with that bit aswell!) and too much uncomfortable mouth movement (evident between 0.43 and 1.20). This is just what I saw personally. 

Pretty horses though.


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## With Grace (Oct 20, 2011)

In that first video, the horse is gorgeous for sure, but am I the only one kind of creeped out by the rest of it? The candles, the roses, the creepy mustache...


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

With Grace said:


> In that first video, the horse is gorgeous for sure, but am I the only one kind of creeped out by the rest of it? The candles, the roses, *the creepy mustache*...


ROFL me too!!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

With Grace said:


> In that first video, the horse is gorgeous for sure, but am I the only one kind of creeped out by the rest of it? The candles, the roses, the creepy mustache...


Brings a whole new meaning to "horse lover"


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Hahahahaha yuck! Well I'll admit that like those above, I think I'd be more put off going to ride under this guy by his sheer creepiness than the lack of 'real dressage' :S 
Give me the Double Dans here in Australia any day for trick training!!!


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## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr (Oct 29, 2011)

Dare I say it, but I don't call it good horsemanship. Hope that don't offend anyone.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr said:


> Dare I say it, but I don't call it good horsemanship. Hope that don't offend anyone.



I agree- good horse, I know my old lad would have put him in the corner of a stable, but not good horsemanship.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

What I find interesting is that people who admit they know very little about dressage, think that it was dressage.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

BaileyJo said:


> What I find interesting is that people who admit they know very little about dressage, think that it was dressage.



But, thats how you learn.
It looks good, impressive, flashy, but its not until someone else critiques it, and gets to the nitty gritty that you start and see the faults of it. THEN you can look for them and THEN you can learn.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

DuffyDuck said:


> But, thats how you learn.
> It looks good, impressive, flashy, but its not until someone else critiques it, and gets to the nitty gritty that you start and see the faults of it. THEN you can look for them and THEN you can learn.


I don't want to turn this into an anti-dressage thread. I suspect the point the non-dressage types (which includes me) were making was that the rider seemed to work with the horse. 

This may be REAL dressage:






but it doesn't make me wish I could do anything like it. And yes, I freely admit I'm in no danger of riding in ANY competition and winning ANYTHING.

OTOH, the video of Nuno Oliveira is drool-worthy. I again admit I have a completely untrained eye for dressage (and most other riding), but he seems very relaxed and natural. This is what I think of when I hear 'dressage':


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

bsms, video's aren't working right now (ancient laptop)
however, if a horse and rider were working together in any discipline I would not expect to see such cardboard movements from the horse, nor for the horse to fall out of a movement, as difficult as it may be, the way the first horse did and class it real dressage.

The first horse is awfully stiff, sure the rider sits the horse well but they don't look 'together' at all, to me, I got the feeling the horse was doing it, not enjoying it, and to me, a horse enjoying its job is a big part of 'togetherness'. JMO 

Night all.. its 1.20am :O


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

BSMS, Anky has been knocked off her perch  Nuno to me is REAL dressage, in its purest form. Right now in competition, Carl Hester and his student Charlotte Dujardin are doing exceeding well, and maintaining the quality of paces. Presently, I consider them to be riders to aspire to, not Anky.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

BaileyJo said:


> What I find interesting is that people who admit they know very little about dressage, think that it was dressage.


It seemed like a nice ride to me but after reading the critiques I can see some of the points that have been made. I still think it's far from "trick training" but I can see it's not the best exampe of dressage. I do think it's a much better example of how a horse should function with a rider than a lot of what's winning in many disciplines.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

bsms said:


> I don't want to turn this into an anti-dressage thread. I suspect the point the non-dressage types (which includes me) were making was that the rider seemed to work with the horse.
> 
> This may be REAL dressage:
> 
> ...



See I have NEVER thought of Anky as a great rider no matter what she may have won.

I personally would put Reiner Klimke (sp) way above her but because he is from the older generation like Nuno many may think dead or anything that looks old can't be worth much. There have been so many good REAL dressage riders that don't show( or never showed) or are not around anymore.

30 plus videos or pictures I gather from some means they don't count for anything.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Kayty said:


> ...Right now in competition, Carl Hester and his student Charlotte Dujardin are doing exceeding well, and maintaining the quality of paces. Presently, I consider them to be riders to aspire to, not Anky....





Spyder said:


> ...I personally would put Reiner Klimke (sp) way above her but because he is from the older generation like Nuno many may think dead or anything that looks old can't be worth much. There have been so many good REAL dressage riders that don't show( or never showed) or are not around anymore...


It looks from those videos that dressage is getting over Anky. I'm not fit to judge anyone as a rider, but the new videos and the old B&W ones both seem better than the one in post 1. I can admire those riders and enjoy watching them ride, even if I don't understand what is going on.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> I do think it's a much better example of how a horse should function with a rider than a lot of what's winning in many disciplines.


It's very interesting to me that you see it that way. I think if the rider is having fun, the horse should be having fun! That's what I live by anyway.. my horse is always beaming when we ride. Even when he lunges, he's very happy. I think every horse-rider relationship, regardless of skill, should be that way.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I think a lot of people saying the horse is "happy" when being ridden / performing is gross anthropomorphism. I've been plopped down in front of some dressage videos and told to admire them. When I question the horse's obviously tense and ****y body language, I am told that

He's pinning his ears because he is _concentrating_.

He's swishing his tail _rhythmically to balance his motion_.

He's popping little bucks because he _feels good_.

I may not know dressage, but I do know equine body language....


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It isn't always fair to compare the riders of the Iberian horses to those that ride the big warmbloods. They move very differently and take a different way of riding to bring out the best in them. Although I personally admire Nuno's way of riding, just because it is so very pleasing to me, I do realize that if he were on a 17 hh warmblood, he might look different.

I , too , like Reiner Klimke. His daughter (Ingrid?_) is also a lovely rider.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Skyseternalangel said:


> It's very interesting to me that you see it that way. I think if the rider is having fun, the horse should be having fun! That's what I live by anyway.. my horse is always beaming when we ride. Even when he lunges, he's very happy. I think every horse-rider relationship, regardless of skill, should be that way.


If you want to see a horse having fun then turn it out in a field with a big, shady tree and plenty of grass. Many times my horses have to perform when it's not very much fun for either of us. We both have to get it done.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

*THIS* is real dressage

Dr Klimke on Ahlerich..no double bridle and in harmony.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Why is the low, tight noseband required?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> If you want to see a horse having fun then turn it out in a field with a big, shady tree and plenty of grass. Many times my horses have to perform when it's not very much fun for either of us. We both have to get it done.


That wasn't my point.. at all. Everyone knows horses are happiest being horses. But horses should not HATE their job, if we're having fun, why shouldn't they? 

And yes there are times when we both don't want to ride but we do because we have to practice or we have a lesson. But at the end of the ride, we're both happy. But he's not sour about it. I see a lot of horse and rider pairs that look plain miserable or the horse is throwing a fit or the horse's heart isn't into it. 

To me, that's IDEAL riding. Not.. being the best but having no heart. Which is why Andreas and Matine's performance or Nuno riding is more fun to watch to me than most.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

His daughter Ingrid was in Australia recently for our PSI Dressage with the Stars. She was an absolute delight to watch with the horses, very much like her father. Every horse she rode was soft, light and very content to work for her. 

And regarding the horse being 'happy' when the rider is happy...wasn't it Anky who went around promoting the 'happy athlete' horse? I think happiness can be interpreted in various ways. Anky thinks her horses are happy in their work, I see grumpy agitated horses with a lot of tension. 
Kevin has it spot on, a horse is happiest when they are hanging out in a paddock paddock, no fences in sight, knee high in grass.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Which is why Andreas and Matine's performance or Nuno riding is more fun to watch to me than most.


You would like Feugo and Juan Manuel then :wink: They look like they're having a lot of fun out there!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Kayty said:


> And regarding the horse being 'happy' when the rider is happy...wasn't it Anky who went around promoting the 'happy athlete' horse? I think happiness can be interpreted in various ways. Anky thinks her horses are happy in their work, I see grumpy agitated horses with a lot of tension.
> Kevin has it spot on, a horse is happiest when they are hanging out in a paddock paddock, no fences in sight, knee high in grass.


I definitely know nothing about Anky, or this Juan Manoz person you linked. But I do like to see horses enjoying themselves or being proud of themselves, not just gritting their teeth and doing it so-so because they're being told to.

It's just a personal preference.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Fuego is so uphill he looks like he's climbing a hill. What breed is he?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

He is a PRE tiny  (Spanish Andy)
Also to add - being an Iberian breed, he is bred specifically for that level of collection


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

I'm just curious with everyones comments on all these videos. Someone showed me a video awhile back that I liked the music in but I couldn't really tell if the actual riding was considered in the way your all talking about. 





 
I think there is a little funny moment at the end but other than that I wa never really sure.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Why is the low, tight noseband required?


From Dover Equestrian Library -

"In an English snaffle bridle, the noseband keeps the horse’s jaws aligned and prevents the horse from opening its mouth wide enough to avoid the bit and rein aids. When adjusted properly—not to tightly or too loosely—the noseband also transfers some of the bit pressure from the bars of the horse’s mouth to the nasal bone. A noseband also provides a place for a standing martingale, if used, to attach. The type of noseband or caveson that is allowed and designed to be used as part of a snaffle bridle varies slightly according to the English riding discipline. For example, a simple caveson is the only type allowed in the hunter equitation ring, while a dressage rider commonly chooses a flash noseband. Jumpers and cross country riders may choose to use a Figure-8 noseband rather than a flash, as the design allows extra room for the horse’s nostrils to expand while working."


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

^ Exactly.

But if the horse were truly 100% soft, light, relaxed, and responsive, a noseband wouldn't be required to keep the horse from opening its mouth to evade the bit. Why would the horse try to evade the bit in the first place? I don't see how a noseband could possibly redistribute rein pressure to the nose--that makes no sense. And you don't use a standing martingale in dressage....


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

BaileyJo said:


> From Dover Equestrian Library -
> 
> "In an English snaffle bridle, the noseband keeps the horse’s jaws aligned and prevents the horse from opening its mouth wide enough to avoid the bit and rein aids. When adjusted properly—not to tightly or too loosely—the noseband also transfers some of the bit pressure from the bars of the horse’s mouth to the nasal bone. A noseband also provides a place for a standing martingale, if used, to attach. The type of noseband or caveson that is allowed and designed to be used as part of a snaffle bridle varies slightly according to the English riding discipline. For example, a simple caveson is the only type allowed in the hunter equitation ring, while a dressage rider commonly chooses a flash noseband. Jumpers and cross country riders may choose to use a Figure-8 noseband rather than a flash, as the design allows extra room for the horse’s nostrils to expand while working."



Also in use at that time is the dropped noseband but if you are not used to or hate seeing older pictures ( or maybe 30 year old pictures are meaningless) you would not be aware of this piece of equipment.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> ^ Exactly.
> 
> But if the horse were truly 100% soft, light, relaxed, and responsive, a noseband wouldn't be required to keep the horse from opening its mouth to evade the bit. Why would the horse try to evade the bit in the first place? I don't see how a noseband could possibly redistribute rein pressure to the nose--that makes no sense. And you don't use a standing martingale in dressage....


It doesn't say you use a martingale in dressage. 

Are you really asking the question about evading the bit or just trying to convey that dressage makes no sense to you and you don't understand it? Not sure with your reaction.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Seriously bubba? You will rant and rage about how some huge, leveraged, ropes everywhere, barrel racing bit with a tie down is fine in the hands of an experienced barrel racer, but an Olympian puts a flipping NOSEBAND on their grand prix horse and its abusive.....

My personal modern favorites for people I've trained with are Robert Dover and Jan Ebeling. I do however love watching Carl Hester, Markus Gribbe and especially Edward Gal... all are very soft, elegant riders who demand as much or more from themselves as their horses. True Dressage requires that the rider is able to be still and has a very educated body in the correct timing. My biggest criticism of some of the posted videos is the excessive upper body movement in the rider.... of course with the exception of Dr Klimke. He was a family friend of my first Dressage coach and actually rode and trained the sire of my Hanoverian mare (who was owned by this family). They always spoke very highly of him, and he is to this day one of my favorite riders to watch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Seriously bubba? You will rant and rage about how some huge, leveraged, ropes everywhere, barrel racing bit with a tie down is fine in the hands of an experienced barrel racer, but an Olympian puts a flipping NOSEBAND on their grand prix horse and its abusive.....


Did I say that? No I did not. But your self-righteous overly defensive attitude is exactly what I was hoping I'd inspire with my comment.

Why? Because, as the argument seems to go (accurate or not), "dressage is the only true form of training; it's perfect harmony between human and horse; there's no force involved and it's all natural; we only use snaffle bits because we don't want to be cruel and inhumane nor do we wish to 'cheat' with leverage pressure...."

But if this were all true, I simply point out, the noseband would not be necessary, save as a fashion accessory.

Also, "ropes everywhere?"


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> Why is the low, tight noseband required?


 
The noseband is low in that video, but not particularly tight. It is fitted, but should not be so tight as to disallow movement of the jaw or swallowing. Some say the dropped nose band moves the caveson's "around the head" pressure down past the teeth and thus more comfortable. A horse with any sort of points on his teeth will be uncomfortable with a caveson that is right around the head where the big molars might be pinching the cheeks between teeth and noseband.

I have seen cavesons with "cranks" in them so they can be really made tight. That is definitely a case of using force to keep the horse from evading the bit and is abusive, in my opinion.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> I have seen cavesons with "cranks" in them so they can be really made tight. That is definitely a case of using force to keep the horse from evading the bit and is abusive, in my opinion.


So long as you adjust it properly, it isn't abusive.. if you crank her down.. yes then it really is.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Exactly Skyes 

My noseband is a crank, but only because I love the look of them - mine certainly don't get used to literally crank the jaw shut, I can always fit fingers under my noseband.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

of course it depends on how tight you have it. But I just wonder why it's necessary? I mean it seems that if you can't get it tight enough by simply pulling through, then you probably have it tight enough at that point.

Isnt' this thread kind of squirrelly? Going all over the place.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Actually, bubba the point of my comment is that I don't understand barrel racing so I won't comment on what I think about the use of the bits (did you ever see me in one of your threads??). I actually happen to agree with you anyways, bit that's besides the point. Others might have the same respect for tack used in disciplines they don't understand, or care to learn about.

Also - save actually putting fingers under the tack it is early impossible to visually tell how loose or tight it is, save extreme cases.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Honestly I use a noseband such that the horse can't fully open and gape his mouth out of boredom or as an evasion from a "normal" contact - and to prevent the habit from occurring in the first place. I believe a flash or a drop noseband serve the purpose of simply keeping the bit quiet in the horse's mouth. That's it, that's all.
There is a WP rider at my barn who did not ride her 4 y/o in a noseband and now after 2 years of getting his back teeth banged out by her constant yanking has begun to stick his tounge over the bit - as well as gaping but that's to be expected!! - so she's slapped a noseband on him to shut his mouth. That - imo - is not the correct use of equipment. 
I know of another competition dressage rider whom (in the past - I'm unsure if this is still an issue) had to pull so hard on her horse to keep him in the realm of control that she had to shut his mouth with a big crank and fed him copious amounts of sugar prior to entering the show ring so that the white foam would cover the obvious gap still left between the horse's top and bottom jaw.. Again - not correct usage in my opinion.

I've never been in the position that I've had a horse quite that hot though, and I'm hoping I will never have to go there.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm trying to flesh some things out here--not be snarky--so bear with me.



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Honestly I use a noseband such that the horse can't fully open and gape his mouth out of boredom or as an evasion from a "normal" contact - and to prevent the habit from occurring in the first place.


I just question why the horse would evade, if truly 100% soft and willing. Unless we're going with the opposite assumption, which is perfectly fine, but it does put a dent in the myth of "perfect" dressage as some would have it.



> I believe a flash or a drop noseband serve the purpose of simply keeping the bit quiet in the horse's mouth. That's it, that's all.


How, though, unless it's completely preventing all mouth movement? I can see how it might provide some stability if the noseband were placed on the outside of the bridle cheek pieces, but it's not. OK, scratch that, just looked up a drop noseband and I see that it is. All right, in this case, point taken.



> There is a WP rider at my barn who did not ride her 4 y/o in a noseband and now after 2 years of getting his back teeth banged out by her constant yanking has begun to stick his tounge over the bit - as well as gaping but that's to be expected!! - so she's slapped a noseband on him to shut his mouth. That - imo - is not the correct use of equipment.


No, it's not, and I don't think it's even a piece of equipment commonly used (or even allowed?) in WP. Regardless, if you're banging your horse in the teeth, ur doin it wrong.



> I know of another competition dressage rider whom (in the past - I'm unsure if this is still an issue) had to pull so hard on her horse to keep him in the realm of control that she had to shut his mouth with a big crank and fed him copious amounts of sugar prior to entering the show ring so that the white foam would cover the obvious gap still left between the horse's top and bottom jaw.. Again - not correct usage in my opinion.


And am I correct in assuming that, in your opinion, that's not correct dressage, either?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> I'm trying to flesh some things out here--not be snarky--so bear with me.
> 
> 
> I just question why the horse would evade, if truly 100% soft and willing. Unless we're going with the opposite assumption, which is perfectly fine, but it does put a dent in the myth of "perfect" dressage as some would have it.
> ...


My responses are in red, like roses


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Or blood, really.


Perhaps, for me, this is more fitting? :lol:
_You_ may not have said that it's bunnies and roses (_you_ just happened to be the first to take the bait)_,_ but that seems to be a common theme here. And admittedly, I'm on the outside looking in. But my limited experience has been that there is every bit as much crap going on in that discipline as any other. The most respected dressage trainer in *this* region has decades of experience, is a certified Centered Riding level II instructor, and has a big following of dedicated fans who praise her horsemanship. She's good, yeah, but I've never been impressed. I disagreed with a lot of what she had me do the one time I had her give me a lesson (on my crazy barrel mare, no less), and when I've observed her teaching others, it's side reins this and that. Which takes away from a lot of the "you've got to push from behind the get impulsion, and never pull on the face deal." Maybe some do it the "right" way, but I'd hazard a guess that they're in a minority....just as in every other equine event. You can get excellent riding and training or you can get the façade of excellent riding and training....and it takes a **** good eye to tell the difference sometimes (*coughankycough*).


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Anky is not the "bees knees" of the sport and I don't really like how she rides. However. The woman got to where she is somehow and judging from how she teaches she is very black and white. (Sorry I have this terrible not throwing the baby out with the bathwater complex!!)
What I remember the most from her in a symposium asked a fairly prominent rider how she rode a circle. So the woman spouts off about inside leg, outside rein, back to front, blah, blah, blah. Anky very patiently waited until she was finished and then said "No, you just turn the horse onto the circle".

There is really something to be said for someone to be able to think so clearly and I think that has gone a long way in how she teaches her horses. And she has a lot of balls to be getting on some of those things. I know a son of Krack C and you couldn't pay me to brush the thing, let alone ride it. She did a demo on Krack C once that I snuck into the warm up for and let's just say the horse is not lead around by one person, nor does he like having all 4 feet on the ground!!

Lets all just remember that the Germans (leaders in the sport of dressage) have a word specifically for "closing the barn to school a horse so there is no one around to watch"....


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

> What I remember the most from her in a symposium asked a fairly prominent rider how she rode a circle. So the woman spouts off about inside leg, outside rein, back to front, blah, blah, blah. Anky very patiently waited until she was finished and then said "No, you just turn the horse onto the circle".


Well, there's THAT, too. Maybe it's just me being dumb, but I find a lot of riding "theory" to be....dumb. What you do on a horse does not translate very well to a written essay. It just doesn't. There are far too many variables in each specific scenario, and how do you describe, in words, _feel_? All the nuances of pressure and release? Writing them out mechanizes them and makes them ineffectual if one tries to translate a step-by-step manual into a fluid motion.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

This is kind of off topic, but still somewhat on.

Why is it that once you hit a certain level in dressage you have to switch over to a double bridle in order to compete? What cause that to be a rule?

Many riders and horses are very capable of doing the exact same things in just a simple snaffle. For example, I watched Edward Gal ride a mare in just a snaffle and it was absolutely amazing (She was Alberta-bred. Woot!). They did an amazing demonstration of tempi's, half-passes, etc.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Arksly said:


> This is kind of off topic, but still somewhat on.
> 
> Why is it that once you hit a certain level in dressage you have to switch over to a double bridle in order to compete? What cause that to be a rule?
> 
> Many riders and horses are very capable of doing the exact same things in just a simple snaffle. For example, I watched Edward Gal ride a mare in just a snaffle and it was absolutely amazing (She was Alberta-bred. Woot!). They did an amazing demonstration of tempi's, half-passes, etc.


 It's more for the rider and tradition than for the horse. Many people feel like they "need" it to control the horse (I was just having this exact conversation with the trainer that runs the boarding facility I'm at - then why are you riding the horse FEI!?)...
I find it way more of a pain in the rear to ride with and have been trying to get special dispensation to ride without it because I have double brachydactyly but that is not going well haha... Pretty much every horse you see in the dressage arena at FEI levels should be able to school everything with a snaffle, my double has been collecting dust since my last competition.
It does take a lot more skill to ride with a double and requires the rider to have a very soft, educated and still hand.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Well, there's THAT, too. Maybe it's just me being dumb, but I find a lot of riding "theory" to be....dumb. What you do on a horse does not translate very well to a written essay. It just doesn't. There are far too many variables in each specific scenario, and how do you describe, in words, _feel_? All the nuances of pressure and release? Writing them out mechanizes them and makes them ineffectual if one tries to translate a step-by-step manual into a fluid motion.


!!!!!!!!!!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> ...What I remember the most from her in a symposium asked a fairly prominent rider how she rode a circle. So the woman spouts off about inside leg, outside rein, back to front, blah, blah, blah. Anky very patiently waited until she was finished and then said "No, you just turn the horse onto the circle"...


That would be Anky acting like a horse's butt.

If she asked *ME* how to do a circle, she might get "Turn right and don't stop". But at a high level clinic, that questions assumes a more detailed response. It would be like an Indy race car driver giving a clinic saying that racing is just accelerating and turning left...

After all, my circles rarely even look like eggs, except scrambled, and I think my gelding was taught that a circle is a series of straight lines that eventually bring you back to where you started. But that sort of 'circle' isn't what is meant in dressage. 

And I practice circles with him not because I'm lost or confused, but because I need more suppleness from him to get a decent canter out of him - his stiffness means he canters clockwise on the wrong lead. That isn't a huge fault for me in terms of riding, because ultimately I ride to go somewhere...but it indicates a problem in his body that can be made better - with training, which folks tell me is what 'dressage' means.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Or blood, really.
> 
> 
> Perhaps, for me, this is more fitting? :lol:
> _You_ may not have said that it's bunnies and roses (_you_ just happened to be the first to take the bait)_,_ but that seems to be a common theme here. And admittedly, I'm on the outside looking in. But my limited experience has been that there is every bit as much crap going on in that discipline as any other. The most respected dressage trainer in *this* region has decades of experience, is a certified Centered Riding level II instructor, and has a big following of dedicated fans who praise her horsemanship. She's good, yeah, but I've never been impressed. I disagreed with a lot of what she had me do the one time I had her give me a lesson (on my crazy barrel mare, no less), and when I've observed her teaching others, it's side reins this and that. Which takes away from a lot of the "you've got to push from behind the get impulsion, and never pull on the face deal." Maybe some do it the "right" way, but I'd hazard a guess that they're in a minority....just as in every other equine event. You can get excellent riding and training or you can get the façade of excellent riding and training....and it takes a **** good eye to tell the difference sometimes (*coughankycough*).


Sounds to me in this post that you simply have sour grapes and you really know very little about dressage. And why would you _bait_ anyone? To me, that's bratty behavior. :?

I'm guessing that dressage is something that you don't like because it takes time to learn how to correctly ride and to train your horse - as in any discipline. I'm also guessing your mare is not soft in the face and the trainer probably had you doing boring things like turning/bending and one rein stops - hopefully. It doesn't happen in one lesson and it's too bad that you don't stick with it. Looks like your mare could benefit from it and you as well. 

Side reins are also helpful in building muscle, flexion, balance and topline. Not everyone uses them but they can be helpful. Just letting you know that since it seems like you are not sure the reason behind those either. 

Believe me, I know nothing about barrel racing - don't care to know. I will not even give my ideas on that.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

BaileyJo said:


> *Sounds to me in this post that you simply have sour grapes and you really know very little about dressage. And why would you bait anyone? To me, that's bratty behavior.* :?
> 
> I'm guessing that dressage is something that you don't like because it takes time to learn how to correctly ride and to train your horse - as in any discipline. I'm also guessing your mare is not soft in the face and the trainer probably had you doing boring things like turning/bending and one rein stops - hopefully. It doesn't happen in one lesson and it's too bad that you don't stick with it. Looks like your mare could benefit from it and you as well.
> 
> ...



Nah, that's forums for you.

I have to say you kinda contradict yourself, and our now bating bubba. Not only that you say you know nothing about barrel racing, but you give her a load of stuff in two paragraphs that a)baits and b) has nothing to do with how she rides.

Now, standing back I can see both parts of the argument. I wouldn't ride in a myler bit, but doing research it LOOKS bad to us snaffle riders, but is actually a very nice bit. Nosebands- I agree with anebel, don't let the mouth gape open so you have to fix it. I see a lot of western ridden horses ( a lot, not all) ridden with their mouths gaping open. Aesthetically wise, its not something we like, and that means we have to do more extreme things.

BUT why do you make the assumption that bubba's horse isn't soft in the mouth, and her training? Bizzare.

Also, side reins don't build muscle, flexion and topline. Correct riding does. If you need helpful aids like those, which I would only consider using lunging, you need to re-evaluate your riding if you're wanting to build the above things. If you are beginning, and wishing to feel how a horse should be, or a rounded neck is one less thing to think about, fine, but its not a solution for what you said.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

*First rule of a cowboy*

Never,under any circumstances,for any reason, make comments (good or bad) about Dressage riding.

There just isn't any profit in it and what will follow is worse than trying to milk a bull.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^^ I would "like" it more, but I'm only allowed one...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Never,under any circumstances,for any reason, make comments (good or bad) about Dressage riding.
> 
> There just isn't any profit in it and what will follow is worse than trying to milk a bull.


Lesson learned!!


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Nah, that's forums for you.
> 
> I have to say you kinda contradict yourself, and our now bating bubba. Not only that you say you know nothing about barrel racing, but you give her a load of stuff in two paragraphs that a)baits and b) has nothing to do with how she rides.
> 
> ...



Apologies on this part, I have been linked to a video further back in the thread... bubba, your horse is a saint o.0 you wouldn't get away with being like that on Duffy... however, your horse, your discipline, not mine.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> Lesson learned!!



Pfft, kevinshorses not at all.. you posted a link, we watched it and although I don't like it, and others do/don't then you learn, like I posted earlier. More threads like this are helpful to show people yays and nays and to have a good debate ;D

The only lesson 'learned' is post more so we can pick it apart :lol:


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Nah, that's forums for you.
> 
> I have to say you kinda contradict yourself, and our now bating bubba. Not only that you say you know nothing about barrel racing, but you give her a load of stuff in two paragraphs that a)baits and b) has nothing to do with how she rides.
> 
> ...


I don't think it is forum behavior - I think it is bratty behavior. Just my opinion. And I am not baiting her. I am responding to her post. 

I make the assumption because I can see it in her riding her horse in her video. And I've seen other videos too. My _guess_ is that her mare is not too soft in the face. Just what I see. 

When I first got my mare, she needed to work on lots of things. She was in pretty bad shape. The side reins helped - yes as an aide - to begin to work on buidling her up and teaching her flexion, along with riding her. You have your aides, I have mine. And I certainly don't ride in them.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

BaileyJo said:


> I don't think it is forum behavior - I think it is bratty behavior. Just my opinion. And I am not baiting her. I am responding to her post.
> 
> *I make the assumption because I can see it in her riding her horse in her video. And I've seen other videos too. My guess is that her mare is not too soft in the face. Just what I see. *
> 
> When I first got my mare, she needed to work on lots of things. She was in pretty bad shape. The side reins helped - yes as an aide - to begin to work on buidling her up and teaching her flexion, along with riding her. You have your aides, I have mine. And I certainly don't ride in them.



I know, I was redirected to the video- apologies for that, I had no idea.

Ah, and as for the last post it gave me the impression you did ride in them. As I said, good for beginners if you have the right horse, but its not a be all and end all.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Lets all just remember that the Germans (leaders in the sport of dressage) have a word specifically for "closing the barn to school a horse so there is no one around to watch"....


You're joking right? :shock:


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> You're joking right? :shock:



Nope, this is right, but it means a whole range of things from not seeing your horse being ridden by others of an opposing side, to protecting those precious dressage horses from the elements.

The top horses I know in my area still go out and muck about as good as the others. Albeit not in wet weather.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Lesson learned!!



In my foolish youth I tried to show my understanding and sympathy's for the sport and was handed back various parts of my body one by one.

You are a much braver man than I am Kevin but I must admit getting a bit of enjoyment watching you trying to ride that bronc.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> Well, there's THAT, too. Maybe it's just me being dumb, but I find a lot of riding "theory" to be....dumb. * What you do on a horse does not translate very well to a written essay. * It just doesn't. There are far too many variables in each specific scenario, and how do you describe, in words, _feel_? All the nuances of pressure and release? Writing them out mechanizes them and makes them ineffectual if one tries to translate a step-by-step manual into a fluid motion.


It does, bubba. When I take a lesson and we try new exercise (my trainer gives me directions first on how to ask for desired) when I'm done with it we discuss every step of the those directions on what it does with the horse body and my position and why you ask this way and not other. And yes, there IS a feel when something goes wrong. If the horse is falling in or out you can always tell and correct that. Now it comes with lots of work and experience though (which I'm still lacking since I'm quite recent to the formal lessons). But I do ride lessons horses now (jumping lessons in addition to my dressage lessons) and I can perfectly see/feel when it doesn't move as desired. Exactly same reasons as with my horses, and same corrections take care of the problem (although those lesson horses not nearly as responsive and balanced, but I still can control the shoulders/legs in same way).

I'm sorry to say so, but I have a feeling you didn't come across a truly good dressage trainer (I know you said you take lessons from one from time to time). May be trying other trainers would be a good idea.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Val,
Someone told me last week that if my trainer won't ride my horse (unable to due to old injury) he would get me a trainer that could.
I politely told him if my trainer can't see my horse's potential and what I'm doing wrong on board, I would find another.

It takes PRACTISE, however, you can describe the correct feel, how the horse should be, how you should be pretty well and get it right. Practise is what's needed and you'll be able to fine tune.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> Never,under any circumstances,for any reason, make comments (good or bad) about Dressage riding.


What about _*jumping*_?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

DuffyDuck said:


> Someone told me last week that if my trainer won't ride my horse (unable to due to old injury) he would get me a trainer that could.
> I politely told him if my trainer can't see my horse's potential and what I'm doing wrong on board, I would find another.


My trainer doesn't ride my mares. In over a year she got just on my qh once for 15 mins or so (in very beginning of my lessons) to see how it feels and what stops her from progressing (getting that feel of "coming on bit"). I asked her several times this year if she'd like to ride and she said it's more beneficial to teach us together as a team. 

As you said, practice is everything. The more you ride, the more feel you have (on any horse).


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

BaileyJo said:


> I'm guessing that dressage is something that you don't like because it takes time to learn how to correctly ride and to train your horse - as in any discipline. I'm also guessing your mare is not soft in the face and the trainer probably had you doing boring things like turning/bending and one rein stops - hopefully. It doesn't happen in one lesson and it's too bad that you don't stick with it. Looks like your mare could benefit from it and you as well.


No, actually, the trainer had me hauling on my horse's face to get her to give, saying that if she pulls on me, I should just pull back harder. And that if she flung her head or tried to speed up, I should snatch her back. Because, after all, "she's being a brat and you can't hurt her." She also adjusted my stirrups way too short so that it was far too tempting for me to brace against them, whereas I thought in dressage the stirrups were supposed to be long and the leg relaxed save for giving cues. She also had me leaning farther forward than I was comfortable with, which in my barrel horse's world means "go faster" and in my world means "poor posture." When my horse did start bracing and gaping her mouth--as she's made it abundantly clear that she hates the direct action of snaffles--she had me tighten the noseband to prevent this.



> Side reins are also helpful in building muscle, flexion, balance and topline. Not everyone uses them but they can be helpful. Just letting you know that since it seems like you are not sure the reason behind those either.


I know the reasons behind them. I just think that their usage seems antithetical to the supposed purpose of dressage riding/training, and I've heard many people (who claim to be great dressage riders) say that they will never use side reins. But others disagree vehemently...



DuffyDuck said:


> Now, standing back I can see both parts of the argument. I wouldn't ride in a myler bit, but doing research it LOOKS bad to us snaffle riders, but is actually a very nice bit. Nosebands- I agree with anebel, don't let the mouth gape open so you have to fix it. I see a lot of western ridden horses ( a lot, not all) ridden with their mouths gaping open. Aesthetically wise, its not something we like, and that means we have to do more extreme things.


No horse should be gaping its mouth, aesthetics or not, Western or English. If you've got that situation, something is wrong that needs to be adressed. A noseband is a band-aid.

For curb bits, interestingly: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/why-shanked-bits-utterly-evil-etc-101537/



DuffyDuck said:


> Apologies on this part, I have been linked to a video further back in the thread... bubba, your horse is a saint o.0 you wouldn't get away with being like that on Duffy... however, your horse, your discipline, not mine.


Oh yes, quite the saint, that one.

Here's my first time riding her after nearly a year off. I hoped to restart her completely, so threw a snaffle on her and sat as still, quiet, and relaxed as possible. That went very well.





 
She may not have the world's softest face, but she can be very light when the mood strikes her. It just doesn't strike her all that often. Since being pulled off barrels, she lightened up considerably (of course, now that I no longer ride her, on the rare occasions I do pull her up she thinks its her due to run full speed everywhere, and if I don't let her she fights like no one's business). But if you really think she's crazy or I'm heavy-handed, I invite you to watch professional barrel racing (the NFR, etc.) sometime. You may call it bad horsemanship, and it may be, but it's also good barrel racing. Nutty horses and wicked bits abound. It's a whole 'nother animal from dressage, and requires a totally different mindset.

Now I may not have quite the technique and expertise of those NFR gals and ponies, but I did do very well--and win some big stuff--on Crazy Gray, so we were doing a few things right, anyway. And I may not be the best rider in the world (realistically, I'm probably only in the top 10 :wink, but I do know the benefits of having a soft horse. She's hollow throughout most of this video, sure, and wanting to go-go-go, but she's also listening to me and responding on a loose rein.





 
Or here, riding in a halter:





 
And to prove that this really is the world's sweetest horse who has only been wrecked under saddle by my terrible riding:


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> It does, bubba. When I take a lesson and we try new exercise (my trainer gives me directions first on how to ask for desired) when I'm done with it we discuss every step of the those directions on what it does with the horse body and my position and why you ask this way and not other. And yes, there IS a feel when something goes wrong. If the horse is falling in or out you can always tell and correct that. Now it comes with lots of work and experience though (which I'm still lacking since I'm quite recent to the formal lessons). But I do ride lessons horses now (jumping lessons in addition to my dressage lessons) and I can perfectly see/feel when it doesn't move as desired. Exactly same reasons as with my horses, and same corrections take care of the problem (although those lesson horses not nearly as responsive and balanced, but I still can control the shoulders/legs in same way).


I think we're talking about two different things. It's one thing to have a generalized guideline of causes and effects, actions and reactions, and movements/adjustments in order--that's helpful for everyone, though hands-on is still better. It's another to have a ridiculously detailed step by intricate step scenario, predicting everything down to the breaths the horse will take. The ideal and the real don't often meet perfectly. And works beautifully for one team will not necessarily work so nicely for the next. There's not just one right way to train/cue a horse, in other words. Maybe the difference is only in subtle nuances, but that's still significant enough to warrant small deviations.



> I'm sorry to say so, but I have a feeling you didn't come across a truly good dressage trainer (I know you said you take lessons from one from time to time). May be trying other trainers would be a good idea.


Probably not--but she is the best and most highly respected in this area. There really are no other options, though to be frank I have no real interest in pursuing dressage. Better generalized riding and horsemanship, sure, which is what I thought I'd be getting at. But I was disappointed to discover that, at least for her, it was all about the _appearance_ of dressage and not the _reality_ of the good training or whatever. And I don't want to show. I want to ride better. I can learn that elsewhere.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I have replied in bold not to shout, but just to show the difference when I answer your post.



bubba13 said:


> No, actually, the trainer had me hauling on my horse's face to get her to give, saying that if she pulls on me, I should just pull back harder. And that if she flung her head or tried to speed up, I should snatch her back. Because, after all, "she's being a brat and you can't hurt her." She also adjusted my stirrups way too short so that it was far too tempting for me to brace against them, whereas I thought in dressage the stirrups were supposed to be long and the leg relaxed save for giving cues. She also had me leaning farther forward than I was comfortable with, which in my barrel horse's world means "go faster" and in my world means "poor posture." When my horse did start bracing and gaping her mouth--as she's made it abundantly clear that she hates the direct action of snaffles--she had me tighten the noseband to prevent this.
> 
> *As I think Kitten_Val pointed out, perhaps you should look in to another dressage trainer instead of basing all your facts from one experience, that to be fair, doesn't sound like dressage to me either.*
> 
> ...


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> She may not have the world's softest face, but she can be very light when the mood strikes her.......... I do pull her up she thinks its her due to run full speed everywhere, and if I don't let her she fights like no one's business). But if you really think she's crazy or I'm heavy-handed................Now I may not have quite the technique and expertise of those NFR gals and ponies, but I did do very well--
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZjyXo9tuYg


Good horsemen will blame themselves...the rest blame the horse/equipment or anything else.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Never,under any circumstances,for any reason, make comments (good or bad) about Dressage riding.
> 
> There just isn't any profit in it and what will follow is worse than trying to milk a bull.


 

That is a sad commentary. Dressage should not be some kind of untouchable , written on twin tablets, word of God sort of thing. A person shouldn't be scared of being "smote" just by having an opinion or a question, however uneducated they may be.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

DuffyDuck said:


> I have replied in bold not to shout, but just to show the difference when I answer your post.
> 
> *As I think Kitten_Val pointed out, perhaps you should look in to another dressage trainer instead of basing all your facts from one experience, that to be fair, doesn't sound like dressage to me either.*




You've probably seen my reply since, but there really are no other options. And I'd rather learn from a good, non-discipline-specific trainer in the first place, than someone who specializes in dressage.

*



Could be, but then spurs are an aid. Should your horse not be willing to go forwards without using spurs? I use spurs, I'm just trying to say we stick aids on a horse, but a nose band is the least of our issues.

Click to expand...

*I agree with what you're saying (or at least what I think you're saying)...for the most part. It all depends on how its used and adjusted, and the goals that it is intended to achieve.



> *Unfortunately I cannot view this as their is some music attachment that doesn't agree with Germany.*




Pity. Just picture a rider sitting still, hands low and still, horrified expression on her face as a horse violently braces against a snaffle, head raised as high as it will go, and eyes rolling like that famous "three Arabians" print, trying to climb the air to gain altitude....

*



If my horse, after I have trained her, is only soft on occassion there is something wrong with my riding/training, or with the horse.

Click to expand...

*I agree, but you also have to consider what we ask barrel horses to do. It's very mentally hard on them, with kicking and whipping and high pressure. You ask them to run full out and turn hard, and it's no wonder most of them turn out the way they do. I'm not excusing the riding, per se, so much as explaining the mindset. Not to mention that true collection is not at all desirable during an actual barrel run, because it's not conducive to the speed you need. A good barrel horse will gather up and sink down during a turn, but be strung out in between.

Just watch this for your own interest, not for my points. These gals are some of the best of the best in the sport.






*



If she's hollow but light on the contact and wanting to go go go, then there is something wrong. If my horse hollows, and is light but wanting to go, her back or hind end is either hurting or not working properly.

Click to expand...

*Or out of shape, or poorly trained, or in a mood, or not being asked to move in frame...

*



I'm sorry you think yourself to have terrible riding. You should think positive as a rider, and aim to go as high as you want, not put yourself down.

Click to expand...

*Being a bit facetious here. I try to be pretty honest about my strengths and my weaknesses. And regardless of any of that, my horse _is_ still a natural-born witch....the vet won't even touch her! 



Spyder said:


> Good horsemen will blame themselves...the rest blame the horse/equipment or anything else.


Did you see me blaming the horse or the equipment? No....?

I have told this story before, but I will tell it again. The problems began years ago. I broke the horse, started her on barrels, and things were going well. I was also taking lessons from a world champion barrel racer, a woman known for her skill and winnings but also her cruelty (bad judgment on my and my parents' parts, but I was young and they were naive, and after she abused my other mare I had enough and finally put my foot down--no more). She did not like how "wild" Bones was, so she insisted on a tack change. I'd been using a simple draw bit or something, and having pretty good results. Instead, she put her in a combination gag/draw bit with a rope noseband and twisted mouthpiece....and a tight training fork, besides. I knew better, but she was the professional and I was the teenager, so I relented and gave in. The results were predictable. Bones quickly learned to drop her head to avoid the bit and take off. I had no control, and even after removing the nasty equipment and going back to a regular bridle, things did not improve because the habit was already learned. Things got very, very bad. It got to the point where I could not ride her without her literally leaping in the air and running off, and I had to put a giant harsh bit on her for my own safety, just to get her stopped (and we aren't talking barrel racing here--just trail riding). It generally takes a lot for a horse to scare me, but I was terrified of her. We hit a low point. I consulted with my vet to see if she thought it was a physical issue, and instead, she kept pushing Reserpine. I am not proud of this, but I drugged my horse. The vet insisted it was the right thing to do, that it was commonly done, and safe, etc. Again, I listened to an "expert" when I shouldn't have. After a month of this, when I did, in my defense, only give her half the lowest recommended dose, which took just enough of the edge off to allow me to safely work with her....I'd had enough. I pulled her off the drugs, switched my bit to a benign Argentine snaffle, put her on a natural, safe, and non-drug calming supplement, and just rode the **** horse right.

As you well know, re-training and vice-breaking is far more difficult than training in the first place. I think it's miraculous we were able to come as far as we did, considering the dark place we reached.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> [/B]
> 
> You've probably seen my reply since, but there really are no other options. And I'd rather learn from a good, non-discipline-specific trainer in the first place, than someone who specializes in dressage.
> 
> ...


Again, in bold so you can see where I replied to the bits you wrote to me.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Marecare said:


> Never,under any circumstances,for any reason, make comments (good or bad) about Dressage riding.
> 
> There just isn't any profit in it and what will follow is worse than trying to milk a bull.


See I don't agree with this... I rather people not jump to conclusions or bash or approve of something they don't even have experience with or understand!
Asking questions is fine so you can learn, but pretending like you're this expert.. hell I'm not an expert. But I know what I've experienced and I research what I'm told. 

Seriously it's like me saying "I don't wear spurs because they're so cruel!" I've never worn spurs, right now I don't think I need spurs.. I know nothing about spurs. Only that the last person that wore them on my horse left some marks. But I don't go around pretending like I know what I'm on about, or to tell others not to wear them.. or that you're a bad rider to wear them.

Same with with any discipline.. any opinion. Even about other riders.. judging them will lead to NOTHING productive.

And I would not be at all offended if you said something about dressage. I'm just riding my horse, and we're having a ball. I don't see how people get so flustered about it.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

When did this turn into a "lets all leap on bubba" thread?
Honestly I think she is trying to figure this Dressage crap out and really I don't see a harsh rider! Yall should come watch barrel racing 'round these parts if you want to see some awful riding. Also: Barrel horses get hot. It's life.

I actually tend to agree more with some of what bubba has said about riding being about feel and not having an instruction manual. Side reins as well - I can't even lunge my broke PSG horse in them anymore because of how frantic he gets, they are great for teaching a young horse to give but honestly I most of the time refuse to lunge pretty much anything because I have way more feel in the saddle. 

So let's all get back on track here... actually wait what is the purpose of this thread...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> *When did this turn into a "lets all leap on bubba" thread?*
> Honestly I think she is trying to figure this Dressage crap out and really I don't see a harsh rider! Yall should come watch barrel racing 'round these parts if you want to see some awful riding. Also: Barrel horses get hot. It's life.
> 
> I actually tend to agree more with some of what bubba has said about riding being about feel and not having an instruction manual. Side reins as well - I can't even lunge my broke PSG horse in them anymore because of how frantic he gets, they are great for teaching a young horse to give but honestly I most of the time refuse to lunge pretty much anything because I have way more feel in the saddle.
> ...



I don't see leaping... I think we're having a general discussion, I see differences, and watched the videos, I say what I see and bubba has explained... not what I would want for my horse but mine isn't a barrels horse....
I think we are still on track though, we're discussing dressage, contact, feel, side reins etc.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

For those that think barrel horse should look like they have their noses in the air here is my barrel racer.

He went in this quiet and finished this quiet.

Oh and he DID win in barrels, pole bending and keyhole.

The big difference is he was taught to be soft and listen before he did the games.

Oh and sorry the picture is a little old and therefore judged by some to be of no use or probably faked.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Same horse doing a passage.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Spyder I had no idea you rode barrels :O
I thought you were just a dressage rider!! I've only ridden english.. maybe you can help... are there that many differences between english and western.. theory, ridden etc?

Handsome horse, I love his dapples!!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You can't fake that saddle pad!!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> You can't fake that saddle pad!!


I loved that pad.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

DuffyDuck said:


> Spyder I had no idea you rode barrels :O
> I thought you were just a dressage rider!! I've only ridden english.. maybe you can help... are there that many differences between english and western.. theory, ridden etc?
> 
> Handsome horse, I love his dapples!!



I think I just proved that one helps the other.

My horse was getting bored doing the same FEI class...so I spiced it up some.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Spyder said:


> I think I just proved that one helps the other.
> 
> My horse was getting bored doing the same FEI class...so I spiced it up some.



I think I posted at the same time you popped the other picture on... handsome horse. May send Duffy to you for training??!! :lol:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Spyder said:


> Oh and sorry the picture is a little old and therefore judged by some to be of no use or probably faked.


If seen you say the same thing a couple of times now, but I missed what sparked it, can you link so I can understand.

Nice saddle pad BTW


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

DuffyDuck said:


> Again, in bold so you can see where I replied to the bits you wrote to me.
> 
> *It depends. If you want to learn dressage, you go to a dressage trainer. If you want to learn SJ, you go to a jumper, if you want to do barrels... ya da ya da, you get my point. What I am trying to say is you have had the one bad experience. I don't pull on my horse's mouth in a snaffle. She has run with me before, you sit deep, you sit fast and you think of something to bring them back, but I don't yank on its mouth...not saying you did, its just a general misconception this will get a horse to stop.*




Maybe I haven't made this point clear, but for myself I have no real interest in learning dressage as a discipline. I was simply led to believe that it was the be-all and end-all of horse training, the only "pure" discipline, built slowly on a foundation of perfection and guidance, but never force....I was disillusioned. Some dressage trainers are excellent horsemen and some are terrible. Some of the horses go excellently in frame and others only pretend to because they've been forced into it. And some of it is glorified trick training (_and there's nothing wrong with that!_). Yes, I do wish I could piaffe and capriole my way through the paces, but I also realize that the horses typically used in these events are bred specifically so that these things come easily to them, and that it'd be quite a challenge to teach a foundation QH to do those things. And also that, humbly, I lack the experience to know how to teach these things. You have to ride a horse who knows how to do this before you can teach it yourself. And since I admit to lacking that knowledge, I'll just do without.

If I ever take lessons again, I'll just go to someone who has good horsemanship, regardless of what style of riding I do. My farrier keeps trying to get me a job with a trainer who's looking for an apprentice to break colts. He says the guy is an excellent hand and I'd be perfect for the job. It's so tempting--I'd love to have that experience, and that's the sort of thing I need--but I already have a prior contract for another position. :-(



> *Again, although we have different disciplines, dressage is also extremely tough on a horse, its muscles, legs and pressure. Difference in the disciplines, but a round horse doesn't mean it has to be collected, it just means its relaxed in its back and using its hind end effectively.*




I suppose you could compare barrel racing to eventing/jumping. I've seen the same people who attack me for barrel bits and crazy barrel horses defend the same in eventers. All a matter of perspective, and we're all partial to our own disciplines....

*



No horse is born a witch, before or after you got her something happened, and she turned like that. Personally, I wouldn't be saying my vet can't get near my horse... that would embarrass me to no end, but, different perspectives, different things.

Click to expand...

*It's the vet's fault. Bones requires a certain kind of hand. She has had a bad experience with needles before, making her hard to vaccinate, but she'll let me....all because of the way I approach her. The vet isn't nearly as much of a horsewoman as she thinks she is. She's afraid of my horse, and acts it, and so Bones responds as expected and throws a fit. The other vet, incidentally, is far more matter-of-fact about it. Bones starts to throw her head up and he stabs her before she even realizes what has happened. She requires a confident, competent hand.

Funny anecdote....I originally bought her as a resale project, and after I'd been riding her a couple months I had her nicely w/t/c green broke, soft in a snaffle, trail riding, etc. I listed her online and got a girl my age to come try her out as a barrel prospect. I took her through her paces to show her off, then let the girl get on. She lasted two jumps before sailing headfirst into the gate. Bones just exploded. She'd never bucked with me before (and only rarely since, under extenuating, spooking circumstances). But the girl leaned forward, threw her the rein, and gobbed her in the flank upon mounting....and that was all it took.



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> When did this turn into a "lets all leap on bubba" thread?


They usually do, seems like. Perhaps I ask for it....



> Honestly I think she is trying to figure this Dressage crap out and really I don't see a harsh rider!


I don't want people to think I'm anti-dressage. I'm not. I just hate the way it is frequently exalted above all other disciplines. It doesn't deserve the godlike status it seems to inspire. Probably the average horsemanship in dressage is better than the average horsemanship in barrel racing, just due to the sort of people each tend to attract, but that doesn't really mean a whole lot. Both are valid disciplines with merit, both can be abused, and both can be executed with great skill. Good riding is good riding and bad riding is bad riding and that is that.



> I actually tend to agree more with some of what bubba has said about riding being about feel and not having an instruction manual.


I have learned far more about riding well from watching people and then attempting to imitate them than from anything else....textbooks and lessons included. Maybe that's just a visual learner thing, I don't know.



> Side reins as well - I can't even lunge my broke PSG horse in them anymore because of how frantic he gets,


I haven't used side reins, but I've long-lined through a surcingle and such. My horses will drop their heads beautifully then (my dun gelding, in particular, adopts a beautiful _false_ frame while in a semi-panic state), but it doesn't translate to under saddle. Dunny gets super nervous because he spent the first 13 years of his life team roping in a tight tiedown and harsh curb bit. I've given up on getting him to ever engage and drop his head, after many failed attempts, and now try to enjoy him riding loosely in a super gentle leather hackamore, strung out but soft and responsive, instead of running off terrified through a bit.



> they are great for teaching a young horse to give but honestly I most of the time refuse to lunge pretty much anything because I have way more feel in the saddle.


Funny that you say this. I've come to the same conclusion. It's really hard to get timing right on the ground through a longe line or while ground driving. I always end up feeling like I'm tearing my horse's head off while trying not to.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Funny bubba you and I feel very similarity on a lot of things. I believe that I got into Dressage because of the coaches I was exposed to the one with the most attention to how the rider affects the horse was a Dressage coach and from an early age was exposed to good, traditional horsemanship. I learned how to bandage from a track trainer, my horse was never all owed to be presented poorly and hard work was always valued - we didnt eat until the horses were fed, turned out and the stalls mucked.
Horsemanship is horsemanship regardless of the saddle you are in and the hat you wear. Realizing the limitations in your own knowledge is probably the greatest trait one can have as a horse trainer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)




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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

ROFL 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> And some of it is glorified trick training (_and there's nothing wrong with that!_)


some of it?


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> That is a sad commentary. Dressage should not be some kind of untouchable , written on twin tablets, word of God sort of thing. A person shouldn't be scared of being "smote" just by having an opinion or a question, however uneducated they may be.


It is kinda of sad.... but honestly, I can see how others might see that we think that way. I don't think it is intentional, at least not for me but I swear, once I drank the dressage kool-aid and caught the bug, no other discipline compared to it's energy and the excitement of it. It transfers and I'm passionate about it - and I know others who are as well. We love it, despite everyone else at the barn thinking we are "some fancy dressage riders." All we want to say to them is.... "but have you tried this Kool-Aid???"

On the other hand, I guess I can see how someone might be bouncing off the walls after a turn and burn barrel run. (is that what they call it, not sure)


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

Spyder said:


> I loved that pad.


You are too cool. :wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> Probably not--but she is the best and most highly respected in this area. There really are no other options, though to be frank I have no real interest in pursuing dressage. Better generalized riding and horsemanship, sure, which is what I thought I'd be getting at. But I was disappointed to discover that, at least for her, it was all about the _appearance_ of dressage and not the _reality_ of the good training or whatever. And I don't want to show. I want to ride better. I can learn that elsewhere.


Dressage is NOT about showing. And never been. I wasn't even hoping to show when I started with my current trainer. All I wanted is to bring that horse off forehead, that was it. I want to repeat that you are unlucky to have such an instructor (at least how it sounds from your words). 

BTW pics below are my paint (a VERY BIG challenge (even still)) before and after several months of same riding I put into my qh (my paint had just 1 or 2 lessons, all other lessons were with my qh, and I was a beginner when we started). Do you still think a good instructor doesn't make a difference? :wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

BaileyJo said:


> It is kinda of sad.... but honestly, I can see how others might see that we think that way. I don't think it is intentional, at least not for me but I swear, once I drank the dressage kool-aid and caught the bug, no other discipline compared to it's energy and the excitement of it. It transfers and I'm passionate about it - and I know others who are as well. We love it, despite everyone else at the barn thinking we are "some fancy dressage riders." All we want to say to them is.... "but have you tried this Kool-Aid???"
> 
> On the other hand, I guess I can see how someone might be bouncing off the walls after a turn and burn barrel run. (is that what they call it, not sure)


I somewhat disagree, Bailey. :wink: I didn't try barrels, but besides the dressage I tried cutting, reining, and team penning (and now taking lessons in jumping), and _*every *_discipline has some fun to offer (I tried all on well trained horses BTW, not my own mares). It's just a matter of preference. I can't really say one is better than other. I do prefer dressage (and I hope to do bigger jumps later on), but that's what I want for myself and my horse. I don't consider it to be "center of universe".


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I somewhat disagree, Bailey. :wink: I didn't try barrels, but besides the dressage I tried cutting, reining, and team penning (and now taking lessons in jumping), and _*every *_discipline has some fun to offer (I tried all on well trained horses BTW, not my own mares). It's just a matter of preference. I can't really say one is better than other. I do prefer dressage (and I hope to do bigger jumps later on), but that's what I want for myself and my horse. I don't consider it to be "center of universe".


I'm not talking about "your" universe. I'm talking about mine (of which I love my discipline and am very passionate about it) and the few others at my barn who ride dressage. We are quite free to like which ever discipline we choose. 

I also said that I'm sure it can be quite thrilling to ride a great barrel run. This meaning, I'm sure it is just as exciting for someone who is passionate about running the barrels, or cutting or jumping.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Dressage is NOT about showing. And never been.


Then why is so much emphasis put on showing, and what level a horse can do (perform at / win at), and which horse has the right kind of size, and movement, and so on, and why are some horses bred specifically for dressage?



> I wasn't even hoping to show when I started with my current trainer. All I wanted is to bring that horse off forehead, that was it.


But, honestly, you don't _need _a dressage trainer for that. Any good horseman will do, no matter the discipline.



> BTW pics below are my paint (a VERY BIG challenge (even still)) before and after several months of same riding I put into my qh (my paint had just 1 or 2 lessons, all other lessons were with my qh, and I was a beginner when we started).


All taken the same day.....actually, the same five minutes (say, I think I just discovered what a noseband is for, after all):





































....that said, in reference to what Spyder said earlier, I don't think a picture shows much of anything in terms of training or horsemanship. Anyone can look great or terrible for an instant. A video, at least, shows a more honest and accurate continuum.



> Do you still think a good instructor doesn't make a difference? :wink:


I don't think I ever said it didn't....


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> Then why is so much emphasis put on showing, and what level a horse can do (perform at / win at), and which horse has the right kind of size, and movement, and so on, and why are some horses bred specifically for dressage?


Much emphasis _*where*_? Of course some people and trainers care about showing, but it's true for any discipline. And there are breeds (even blood lines) specifically for cutting. Or reining. Lots of people do dressage to improve the horse and riding, not to show. There are lots of horses here (mine including) that are not build for higher levels of dressage still people learn/take lessons. Some people do team penning or reining just for fun. Etc. 



bubba13 said:


> ....that said, in reference to what Spyder said earlier, I don't think a picture shows much of anything in terms of training or horsemanship. Anyone can look great or terrible for an instant. A video, at least, shows a more honest and accurate continuum.


When EVERY picture is looking about the same it does.  I can catch neither pic nor video similar to the 1st pic I posted anymore (or similar to pics you posted). Even on her "bad" day. How often do you take pics? Unless you take plenty every ride during the whole ride the odds of catching a bad moment are very low (more of a matter of luck) if the horse works correctly most of the time. 

BTW I never said dressage trainer is the only way to go either. :wink: But there should be a reason why many eventers, show jumpers, hunters, (heck, even western riders) in my area take lessons with _*dressage *_trainers.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

BaileyJo said:


> I'm not talking about "your" universe. I'm talking about mine (of which I love my discipline and am very passionate about it) and the few others at my barn who ride dressage. We are quite free to like which ever discipline we choose.


Everyone is free in his/her choice (I don't even understand why someone should question the choice). I was referring to 'All we want to say to them is.... "but have you tried this Kool-Aid???"'. I just don't see the point why someone should try the discipline they don't care about when other disciplines also offer so much.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> Everyone is free in his/her choice (I don't even understand why someone should question the choice). I was referring to 'All we want to say to them is.... "but have you tried this Kool-Aid???"'. I just don't see the point why someone should try the discipline they don't care about when other disciplines also offer so much.


Pretty much for the reason you just stated...

"BTW I never said dressage trainer is the only way to go either. :wink: But there should be a reason why many eventers, show jumpers, hunters, (heck, even western riders) in my area take lessons with _*dressage *_trainers. " And the same reason you are continually urging Bubba to take lessons. 

Not sure why you want to debate when we are really talking about the same thing.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> ...Lots of people do dressage to improve the horse and riding, not to show. There are lots of horses here (mine including) that are not build for higher levels of dressage still people learn/take lessons...


I don't do dressage or have a dressage trainer. However, the trainer we use when we run into problems has Trooper and I working on circles and bending. I suspect it looks a lot like a beginner dressage lesson, only with an Australian saddle, and an old fat guy in bifocals wearing jeans and maybe a cowboy hat.

And the instruction on how she wants me to get him to bend are identical to what I've read in my books on dressage, which isn't surprising since she sometimes takes dressage lessons to improve HER riding.

The reason we're doing these exercises is to improve Trooper's lateral flexibility. He can turn up his own butt-hole in one direction, but not the other. That shows up in his cantering, and might affect his long-term health. So we're doing exercises you could find in dressage books.

Yes, any good trainer would do some of the same training, and I do resent it when dressage riders insist any training is dressage. After all, I don't insist on calling any training "reining" or "cutting". 

Dressage places much more emphasis on sustained collection than I need or want. It also places more emphasis on strides and cues than I need. However, good riding has a lot of detail in it. Properly placed and timed cues to get an athletic horse moving efficiently are good for any riding, and I find dressage pays closer attention to details like that than most other styles of riding. It makes sense to me to pick their collective brains when I want to work on that aspect of riding.

But the horses and riders below aren't likely to ever enter a dressage ring. I think most of the dressage riders on this forum would agree that A) the horses don't look like warmbloods & the riders don't look ready to compete, and B) it doesn't matter. Like kitten_Val said, it is about improving the rider and horse.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

BaileyJo said:


> And the same reason you are continually urging Bubba to take lessons.


****! I'm not urging bubba to *take *lessons (since she did/doing it). I'm urging her to take lessons from the _*different trainer*_. I don't debate BTW, or really disagreeing with you.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Bubba has continually stated there are no other Dressage trainers in her area...


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

Ian McDonald said:


> Oliveria is amazing. You can't really tell where the horse ends and he begins.
> 
> You guys ever see Bartabas? He's pretty good too.
> 
> Bartabas - YouTube


 

LOL, I just have to add that I watch all of these videos with the sound off, and I've been streaming Christmas songs at work. I watched this video as the Manheim Steamroller's Carol of the bells came on. it was timed PERFECTLY, even with the "dramtic exit" I would recommend watching the video to that song...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

NdAppy said:


> Bubba has continually stated there are no other Dressage trainers in her area...


Or she may just now know of another one. :wink: I'm not sure what "area" means in way for some people trailering 1 hour to the trainer is "out of area", and for some they spend 3 hours on road to get to the great one. Since I don't know where bubba lives I can't judge that really.

In any case it's the person's choice how and with whom to take lessons. But saying "dressage is just about showing" is like me saying "trail riding is just about running". Which would be blunt and untrue.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I didn't say "dressage is just about showing." Only that a lot of the "tricks" of dressage have no real application outside the show ring, and that you can't deny the competitive nature of the _sport_. Why else do you need judges, and competition, and horses bred for the event, and all that? I'm not picking on Golden Horse here, by any means, but she's made no secret of the fact that she's been hunting for a new dressage show horse for the past few months. She has other horses, good broke rideable horses, but they don't have the size, movement, and type it takes to win in the show ring....so she's looking for something that can take her further. And she's one of many people in a similar situation. Again, nothing wrong with that, but call it what it is: a competition, a discipline, exactly like reining or cutting in that regard. If dressage were truly just about training a horse to move correctly, there would be no separate competition event for it, and it would not matter what saddle and tack you used, nor the type of horse you rode.

And I don't know why it keeps coming back to dressage trainers in my area, again, but truth be told, people travel over an hour to get _here_ to train with the woman I took a lesson from....


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> I didn't say "dressage is just about showing." Only that a lot of the "tricks" of dressage have no real application outside the show ring, and that you can't deny the competitive nature of the _sport_. Why else do you need judges, and competition, and horses bred for the event, and all that? I'm not picking on Golden Horse here, by any means, but she's made no secret of the fact that she's been hunting for a new dressage show horse for the past few months. She has other horses, good broke rideable horses, but they don't have the size, movement, and type it takes to win in the show ring....so she's looking for something that can take her further. And she's one of many people in a similar situation. Again, nothing wrong with that, but call it what it is: a competition, a discipline, exactly like reining or cutting in that regard. * If dressage were truly just about training a horse to move correctly, there would be no separate competition event for it, and it would not matter what saddle and tack you used, nor the type of horse you rode.*
> 
> And I don't know why it keeps coming back to dressage trainers in my area, again, but truth be told, people travel over an hour to get _here_ to train with the woman I took a lesson from....



This bit made me think... for us, we call teaching a horse to move correctly etc 'bodenarbeit' which is groundwork- something different to you guys, but more or less 'flat work' which I suppose you could call the basics, and dressage is then what it develops in to. But then you have jumping, and then showjumping.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> If dressage were truly just about training a horse to move correctly, there would be no separate competition event for it, and it would not matter what saddle and tack you used, nor the type of horse you rode.


I gonna open a can of worms here and say it doesn't really matter what _type _of horse you ride. But that's a conformation thing (and willingess of the horse), not the breed/type per say. Someone (I believe Spyder) posted a mix here while back that was kicking butts in the dressage arena on high levels (sorry, I'm too lazy to actually dig out through the topics in "Dressage" subforum). 

Pretty much any horse can do dressage (which is nothing but basics), the question is how high you want to get with that say horse (and for many people 1st or 2nd level is the limit they are happy with, still it IS a competition and recognized events and nothing "fancy"). And even if you get fancy shmancy Hanoverian or Dutch WB or anything else on same page then you still better know how to ride and train that horse. Because simply owning a horse won't take you anywhere.

As for competitions... Even trail riding has all sorts of competitions. Is there a special breed/type good for those? :lol:


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

*This is the only "true" Dressage because I said so.*


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

^^ I really like this one too:


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Can't see the first one- blinking germany and music files, however the second one is brilliant


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I've seen an awesome performance of Stacy Westfall vs Lynn Palm at the PA Expo, but can't find the video on youtube..


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

An even better one, that I can't find right now because I'm at work, is a Pas de duex with Lendon Gray and her dressage horse and a Western reiner. Somebody please look that up and post it.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I know a son of Krack C and you couldn't pay me to brush the thing, let alone ride it. She did a demo on Krack C once that I snuck into the warm up for and let's just say the horse is not lead around by one person, nor does he like having all 4 feet on the ground!!
> 
> Lets all just remember that the Germans (leaders in the sport of dressage) have a word specifically for "closing the barn to school a horse so there is no one around to watch"....


 Is this the demo?


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> ****! I'm not urging bubba to *take *lessons (since she did/doing it). I'm urging her to take lessons from the _*different trainer*_. I don't debate BTW, or really disagreeing with you.


Val, I don't see the difference in the way you have been pushing her. Seems like before we all started talking about Bubba taking lessons, she was pretty much against it in the beginning, one lesson or not. Maybe she is coming around.... :-o

But honestly, Bubba, I hope you get back into it in some way or another! Your mare looked good in a couple of shots. She looks like she packs a powerful punch. BTW, I have lots of horror pics and videos like that! I was happy with getting Bailey to keep her head down for five seconds in the beginning!


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

There is only one way to properly counter a Dressage rider that has a lack of humor.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^Wouldn't you first need to find a dressage rider WITH a sense of humor?

Ducking...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

What is the definition of a brave man, one who says



> Wouldn't you first need to find a dressage rider WITH a sense of humor?



But remember don't mention the war


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

BaileyJo said:


> Val, I don't see the difference in the way you have been pushing her. Seems like before we all started talking about Bubba taking lessons, she was pretty much against it in the beginning, one lesson or not. Maybe she is coming around.... :-o


I had a feeling bubba does take lessons with the dressage trainer, just not regularly (based on her posts in other threads). But then you are right, I can't know for sure.  

I was not trying to push really. But as with everything great for some people trainer may not work for you (I had it happened several times). And in this case it's a good idea to try with someone else. Trainer that works for you and your horse worth the weight in gold and the lesson is lots of fun.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

bsms said:


> ^^Wouldn't you first need to find a dressage rider WITH a sense of humor?
> 
> Ducking...



Just read this thread from page 12 onward.

I think we have a lot of sense of humour.

http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/dressage-way-training-just-type-competition-79024/page12/

The problem may be that some people's sense of humour borders on the macabre or how can we make others feel useless.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I think every and all have a sense of humor. It's just too deep under for some people. :wink: Anyway, back on topic...

I think THIS guy beats up Guy McLean, Tommie Turvey and whoever else I can think of working/riding horses at liberty. I've seen the video many times and still enjoy every single time. Wish I could see the performance in person!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> I had a feeling bubba does take lessons with the dressage trainer, just not regularly (based on her posts in other threads). But then you are right, I can't know for sure.
> 
> I was not trying to push really. But as with everything great for some people trainer may not work for you (I had it happened several times). And in this case it's a good idea to try with someone else. Trainer that works for you and your horse worth the weight in gold and the lesson is lots of fun.


What? No. I took one lesson. Waste of $50. I'm a casual friend and business associate of the lady's. May be helping her redesign her website soon. Actually took the lesson as sort of a favor to her, as she's going through a really rough patch in her life. I worked for her associate, who was a general English rider and Centered Riding instructor, before she passed away. Still work on the property.

There is quite honestly no one around here, of many trainers in many disciplines, that I would take lessons from. I've been burned too many times by bad trainers (hence my story earlier) and I know everyone around here well enough to know that their shortcomings far outweigh their strengths and that there is nothing substantial I can gain from them that I can't figure out on my own through trial and error. If I ever get the money and the time, I would by far rather haul to a clinic with a big name, professional, _qualified_ trainer/instructor.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> I've been burned too many times by bad trainers (hence my story earlier) and I know everyone around here well enough to know that their shortcomings far outweigh their strengths and that there is nothing substantial I can gain from them that I can't figure out on my own through trial and error. If I ever get the money and the time, I would by far rather haul to a clinic with a big name, professional, _qualified_ trainer/instructor.


Yep, takes quite a bit of time and money sometime to find the right one unless you are lucky from the start. I was not lucky, unfortunately. Interesting enough I did find clinics to be less useful than lessons (and I can usually take several lessons for the price of one clinic). But again I may be wasn't lucky enough to come across really great one.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Spyder, I never would have guessed that you've done barrel racing! I realize the conversation has morphed since then, but as long as we're sharing photos of our dressage horses that cross-train on barrels....This is my Thoroughbred mare; she is a lovely dressage mare who benefits greatly from work on trails, barrels, etc. Her dressage training keeps her calm as she walks in to and out of the barrel ring, but she's a blur of speed when I let her out for the barrels. She does well on barrels and other speed events locally, but that doesn't mean she's a lunatic with her head in the air.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

equiniphile said:


> View attachment 81908


Love the pink tack photo! Very cute.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

That first video was NOT TRICKS (I am writing this without reading all 11 pages). He was training the "airs above the ground" or Haute Ecole.. which were things a horse needed to do in WAR. All dressage came out of the War Horse training!!! 

In one image (video #1) he is training the Capriole. The horse jumps up and lashes out iwth his hind feet. Imagine being on a horse that can do that in hand to hand combat on horse back! You just got rid of the guy behind you! AND your horse gave you a moment of elevation so you can use your sword ABOVE the fray and other cavalry fighters. 

He is also teaching the Levade in one part.. and this is a horse that collects to the extreme.. lightening his forehand so it is off the ground with the front feet tucked.. and HOLDS IT. If a horse can do that he has just again give you a height advantage.. for 10-15 seconds. 

The higher movements of dressage, now only performed in exhibition (Lippizaners and the like), were all trained for war on horse back. Dressage was a sinister beginning to something beautiful.. 

The horse was clearly in training. Was he perfect? No. Will he be someday? Maybe.... 

Sorry if I am repeating something someone else has said...

BTW, dressage is anything BUT boring.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

OK. Now I have read the thread. Yes. All of it. Too bad there is so darn much snarking that the entire message of what dressage is gets lost. 

Here is the thing.. no matter what discipline you ride, the basis of that discipline is training. The basis of training is to help the horse work in a comfortable manner. The basis of that is to build the horse's muscles and balance so that the horse can be comfortable in its discipline. 

Any discipline requiring a rider will work better if the horse is able to use its ring of muscles. Getting that going requires the same sort of foundation whether the horse is cutting cattle or doing Grand Prix Dressage or doing hunters or western pleasure. 

It is the foundation that counts.. and that is what is most lacking in most horses that show resistance. It is most lacking in most riders who find laying a solid foundation boring. 

Most. Not all. 

On this thread we did see some fine examples of horses using their ring of muscles. The whole thing seemed to deteriorate with the discussion of Klimke on a horse with a dropped noseband. The function of that nose band is NOT to keep the horse from opening his mouth. It is NOT to transfer the signals from the reins to the bridge of the nose. The SOLE PURPOSE of a dropped noseband is to support the bit. A flash noseband is similar but is higher on the horse's nose. Some horses do better in a flash than a drop. 

Side reins are for lunging. They are to help support the horse and allow the horse to find a comfortable way to lower his head and reach under him with his hind leg. They are there to support the horse... not to force the horse into a false frame. Used properly, side reins HELP a young horse to learn to track up on a lunging circle. 

There are many many devices out there both English and Western that are made to hurry up the building of a "foundation." Most create something that is like a false front on a store.. looks good but falls apart under pressure because there is nothing behind it. 

You can call it anything you like.. Dressage, Laying a foundation, Hackamore Training.. it is all designed to build the same thing.. a balanced horse that works without resistance and uses his entire ring of muscles working largely off his hind quarters. 

The result of that foundation is a balanced horse that can extend and collect like a squeeze box if necessary (barrel racing.. calf roping.. reining.. Grand Prix Jumping). Or the result is a horse that can dance.. light as a feather.. in high level dressage or Haute Ecole... or even do "airs above the ground." 

Last, but not least, is the discussion of the double, or full, bridle. In the right hands on a correctly schooled horse, the full bridle allows for slight nuances and adjustments in how a horse goes. The snaffle raises the horse's head and starts a bend in a turn. The curb raises the horse's poll and supports the horse in shifting his weight to the rear.. and supports the horse with an indirect rein. 

No discipline of training.. barrels or dressage.. should be "boring." No horse was born hating a discipline. A horse is born open.. with physical and mental attributes that tend to make him better at one thing than another. If we, as trainers and riders, can remain as open as our horses.. and remember the importance of foundation and laying a foundation.. we will all be better as horsemen.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Elana said:


> OK. Now I have read the thread. Yes. All of it. Too bad there is so darn much snarking that the entire message of what dressage is gets lost.
> 
> Here is the thing.. no matter what discipline you ride, the basis of that discipline is training. The basis of training is to help the horse work in a comfortable manner. The basis of that is to build the horse's muscles and balance so that the horse can be comfortable in its discipline.
> 
> ...



Well said! 

Enjoyed reading that


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I prefer the 'nap seat'. It isn't used in dressage, but is perfectly acceptable in some riding styles. Just ask my 4 year old. Photo for solid proof.


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

^^^^Really?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ *NOW* this thread has everything!:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Sahara that is so cute!

I also like the round the world seat, or my fave- the reclining seat, just lay back on your horse's back... or hanging over their saddles... great training in case you should ever get tired of sitting on your bum


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Pretty near all the big name campdraft era ride in chair seats in stock saddles that are made for them to sit that way. They are fantastic at what they do and pretty handy at training horses for sny discipline - the one campdraft trainer here regularly starts warmbloods for dressage in his stock saddle and chair seat. Another draft trainer was at me a whole clinic to put my feet further home into the stirrups - because it is correct and effective for that discipline.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Me, I prefer bareback sidesaddle.










Or the highly-coveted sofa seat.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ I wish my mare was calm enough to make those 'seats' OK for me!

Oh well - we're working on it. Besides, I'm not sure an old fat guy with bifocals REALLY looks right sprawled on a horse....


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

And don't forget, this next one is for professionals only--NO AMATEURS. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.



















I give you the "Oh $#!+" seat:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Can someone tell me about the disposition of my paint mare? (feel free (and brave) to say anything you think) (and yeah, 2nd one is not even _chair_ seat, it's "driving my manual car" seat)


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Jackie O.? Is that you?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Can someone tell me about the disposition of my paint mare?...


All I'll say is that if I tried that on MY mare, I would quickly transition to:



bubba13 said:


> ...I give you the "Oh $#!+" seat...


In fact, if there were competitions for the latter, Mia & I could give bubba13 some competition!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> All I'll say is that if I tried that on MY mare, I would quickly transition to:


Hey, you never know! May be you'll be able to seat backwards! :lol:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, some of the posters on this thread think my head is in the right position for a backwards seat!


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

How about the "checking the horse forum in your pj's (and horrible hair growing out stage) seat"?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> Jackie O.? Is that you?


:rofl:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> How about the "checking the horse forum in your pj's (and horrible hair growing out stage) seat"?
> 
> View attachment 81941


MHFQ, you are missing helmet and boots. And gloves.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> MHFQ, you are missing helmet and boots. And gloves.


Hey now Jackie O, I had boots on! Can't remember the last time I wore a helmet & can't hardly text with gloves on now can ya? :wink:


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Pffff
You guys obviously don't know anything about elephant Dressage as we always ride in a chair seat.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Elana.. thank you for getting things back on track.
The juvenile snarking is beyond ridiculous..
I found your post extremely educational and eye-opening. It gives a real visual on training and how aids work..
Again, thank you..


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Marecare said:


> Pffff
> You guys obviously don't know anything about elephant Dressage as we always ride in a chair seat.


LOL-- keyboard is full of beverage now... :-o


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Marecare said:


> Pffff
> You guys obviously don't know anything about elephant Dressage as we always ride in a chair seat.


I was _seriously _thinking about trying this type of dressage at the last Renaissance, but... Found it to be too expensive... And too slow too, I like some impulsion going from behind (please, don't confuse with farting!).


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Didn't you know elephants can do a very good levade when reaching for leaves? 
Not sure about getting a piaffe out of them though... maybe in slow motion :/


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I thought elephants couldn't lift all 4 feet off the ground? If that is the case, the piaffe would be pretty awful without any moment of suspension :-(


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> I thought elephants couldn't lift all 4 feet off the ground? If that is the case, the piaffe would be pretty awful without any moment of suspension :-(



I knew this guy was worth looking at, already showing great moments of suspension with all 4 feet off of the ground


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> I knew this guy was worth looking at, already showing great moments of suspension with all 4 feet off of the ground
> 
> whicker at S'toon1.MOV - YouTube


 
That is the cutest little horse I've ever seen.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> I knew this guy was worth looking at, already showing great moments of suspension with all 4 feet off of the ground
> 
> whicker at S'toon1.MOV - YouTube


What the heck did I just see? And where can I get one of those? And does it gait like that for the rest of its life? And how do you sit a gait like that? Wow I am in love with that baby!!


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Forget this guy! 
Spotty horse had irregular steps, lacked impulsion in the canter and was stepping out and pivoting in the pirouette.

Grey was better but steps still very uneven - not a good demo.

Now loko at Nuno he is the man to study - brillient.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> What the heck did I just see? And where can I get one of those? And does it gait like that for the rest of its life? And how do you sit a gait like that? Wow I am in love with that baby!!



For a mere $6800 CAD he can be yours

Breeder Direct Warmblood Andalusian Dressage Hunter Jumper For Sale Val Sanford (306) 242-5099 Saskatchewan Canada Canadian Warmbloods

I tell you true, if my lottery ticket comes up on Friday night I will be buying myself a Christmas present


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

*sigh* Hubby would shoot me if I bought one of those for my self for Christmas. And that would be before he knew it would cost about $10 000 more to get it to Australia :-( Non horsey husbands are not cool :-(


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Try AU$20k + to just import him, then quarantine costs too 

We've got stacks of really stunning youngsters here in Aus - where I got mine from, they had another 10 in the paddock, all by frozen semen or imported studs from Europe, now THEY can move with springs under their feet!!!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Golden Horse said:


> For a mere $6800 CAD he can be yours


That's a very good price for this guy.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I think it's a good price, and if I was in the right position I would happily pay that for him. For the first time I understand how you may buy a horse but have someone else compete on it


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