# ORPHAN FOALS, information sought.



## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

ORPHAN FOALS: INFORMATION REQUEST
Let me start this with what these foals are not so we don't get drug into discussion on those topics.
They are not BLM foals.
These are not foals from the buy back program on the reservation that was held August 3 and 4th of this year.
They are not PMU foals nor are they 'nursemare foals' both of which are moneymaking scams.
I am not looking for homes for them, I am looking for information on any of the foals from these 4 loads. These 320 foals are all sold, or dead.
It is believed they are foals off of the Navajo reservations in NM, and are feral horses.


HELP NEEDED
I am looking for anyone with information on foals sold in Jamesport, MO between the middle of May and the middle of July 2018. I want to find out where they ended up, and what the person who bought one or several was told, and if they had any survive.


There were 4 semi trailer loads brought there to Jamesport Harness Supplies and Carriages, which is Amish business and there were 80 foals on each trailer, for a total of 320 foals. They were being sold for 150 dollars each for first 3 loads. The 4th load they wanted 175-200 each. At a minimum, this netted 30K for these foals as some died after being paid for.


These foals in some cases were 24-48 hours old, with umbilical cords still attached. They ranged up to about 4 months old, if that. Their dams went to slaughter. The foals were trucked into MO, which is a 16 hour trip they made from NM. They were not given milk replacer, nor any vet care and the mortality rate runs at 50% or higher for them, based on the ones we know about.


The foals were sold and hauled to MD, SC, and many other places. They had strangles, pneumonia, rhodococcous and there was possibility of Valley Fever. Their paperwork was either non-existent or didn't match. They were given only grain and alfalfa...which for a day old foal, does no good, as they do not have teeth. Some were down in the trailer when they arrived, some died at the Amish farm, others died in transit to new homes, others died when they arrived.


***I an having devil of time uploading photos so will have to contact Admin to see what is going on.

These photos are some of the ones I took July 17th, 2018 at the Amish farm, there were 50 left on the lot at that point. We were told there were another 400 coming in, but they have not been heard of since this load. There were numbers on many of the foals, including other loads, that were either grease markers or actual paint, which we believe was a tracking system of who brought in the foal and dam, so they could get paid. You can see that on the palomino foal in first photo.


We are aware that there are other foals also being done this way across the US, any information about those would also be appreciated.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I hope you find the information you need. Mercy.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I'll ask a friend who lives on the Navajo reservation if she may know anything. I will get back to you if she does. These poor babies... how did they get that many all only a day or two old at one time, though? Even with feral horses, that seems odd.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Hope you find the info you are searching for.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> I'll ask a friend who lives on the Navajo reservation if she may know anything. I will get back to you if she does. These poor babies... how did they get that many all only a day or two old at one time, though? Even with feral horses, that seems odd.


There are on some reservations 30 thousand or more feral horses. I have seen estimates on the larger ones of 50-75K.

Some of these were very young, some older by week, or two or four, and some up to 4 months possibly. Could also have been the mares foaled out in the gathering pens?

Thank you for trying to find out more.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Got 2 loaded


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Are you trying to adopt? What's the purpose behind trying to find these horses? Likely, most didn't turn out so well, are you sure you really want to find out all the bad news?


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Poor things. Is there a reason they couldn't/wouldn't wait until they were old enough to wean?


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

Man, that's heartbreaking.  Wish I could help those poor youngsters!


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## LooneyTickAcres (Jun 23, 2015)

I was at the Nevada, Missouri sale barn May 22nd and a friend of mine picked up 8 foals from NM... there were 12 total that went through. Papers were traced back to a veterinarian who is involved in the racing industry..... but lots of secrecy overall. Was told that several hundred were being shipped to a guy in Kansas and from there being broke up into loads of 80 and sold at various sale barns in Missouri. The guys from Kansas wouldn’t say anything other than he expected another load of 200 in June, and the vets office claimed they couldn’t share owner information.... but they were listed as the owners.....The foals at the Nevada sale barn were all colored... paints, roans and duns. None had any markers or numbers other than the sale barn tags. Ultimately 7 of the 8 my friend got survived and are doing well. The one she lost was obviously only a day or two old. 

I can’t say for sure your Jamesport babies are part of the same bunch, but it seems way too coincidental for them not to be. We just figured they were nursemare babies since the vet was listed as part of the industry and also owns a rather large Santa gertrudis cattle company.... I’d be curious to learn more if you find anything out.


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## LooneyTickAcres (Jun 23, 2015)




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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I don't know what to say to this. I question though, if these babies did not come from any of those places listed, then where did they come from. It takes a lot of callousness to do this knowing that a lot of these animals will not survive and will suffer tremendously.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Are you trying to adopt? What's the purpose behind trying to find these horses? Likely, most didn't turn out so well, are you sure you really want to find out all the bad news?


No. Not looking to adopt, I have 2 horses and I know the care of raising foals this young, so no.

The purpose is stopping this from happening again. The fact that these sick foals have been trailered from NM into so many other states should be more than enough for any horse owner to be appalled. Strangles is a reportable disease.

And the cruelty of it needs to be exposed as well. This is wrong, however you slice it, this is wrong.

NM, TX, OK, KS, MO, IL, IN, PA, OH, to end up in NY, and then some taken into MD and ME for the NY ones. And the trailer that hauled them? Then went down into FL. So add possibly VA, WV, GA and FL to the exposure.

NM, TX, OK, KS, MO, IL, IN, KY, TN, NC to end up in SC. 

The ones from KS have gone into OK, and into IA, possibly going through NE as well.

And that is just the ones we know about.

The worst would be knowing that I did nothing to try to stop this. Which is why I am looking for more people who may have bought one of these foals, or have bought foals from another reservation in similar circumstances.

I have no illusions that this will be a happy ending. I do think that this needs to be brought to the light.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

JCnGrace said:


> Poor things. Is there a reason they couldn't/wouldn't wait until they were old enough to wean?


Money. All about the money.

The ones doing this only see that.

To some these are just collateral damage...and they don't want to wait to get the money for the mares. And after all, probably easier to corral up mares with foals, than horses without them?


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

LooneyTickAcres said:


> I was at the Nevada, Missouri sale barn May 22nd and a friend of mine picked up 8 foals from NM... there were 12 total that went through. Papers were traced back to a veterinarian who is involved in the racing industry..... but lots of secrecy overall. Was told that several hundred were being shipped to a guy in Kansas and from there being broke up into loads of 80 and sold at various sale barns in Missouri. The guys from Kansas wouldn’t say anything other than he expected another load of 200 in June, and the vets office claimed they couldn’t share owner information.... but they were listed as the owners.....The foals at the Nevada sale barn were all colored... paints, roans and duns. None had any markers or numbers other than the sale barn tags. Ultimately 7 of the 8 my friend got survived and are doing well. The one she lost was obviously only a day or two old.
> 
> I can’t say for sure your Jamesport babies are part of the same bunch, but it seems way too coincidental for them not to be. We just figured they were nursemare babies since the vet was listed as part of the industry and also owns a rather large Santa gertrudis cattle company.... I’d be curious to learn more if you find anything out.



I messaged you. And this would tie in with the foals that arrived in Jamesport on May 25th too.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Did you get my PM with the response from my Navajo friend? Basically, it is extremely unlikely these babies came off the Navajo reservation. Could be from another reservation in the southwest, but not likely. More likely for them to be babies that came off a kill lot (send the mares to kill and dump the babies once you have enough for a full load) or like the above poster mentioned, nurse mare foals.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Did you get my PM with the response from my Navajo friend? Basically, it is extremely unlikely these babies came off the Navajo reservation. Could be from another reservation in the southwest, but not likely. More likely for them to be babies that came off a kill lot (send the mares to kill and dump the babies once you have enough for a full load) or like the above poster mentioned, nurse mare foals.


This makes more sense than off the reservations. I don't know many Native Americans who would stand for this. Coming from kill buyers, futurity failures, nurse mare foals (though that willy nilly breeding seems to have gone the way of the old PMU breeders, they now know that there's a market for well bred foals over just .....mutts). I don't know a bunch of nurse mare folks, but the ones I do know, are extremely careful of their breeding and take care of the foals who need to have their mares sent out.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Did you get my PM with the response from my Navajo friend? Basically, it is extremely unlikely these babies came off the Navajo reservation. Could be from another reservation in the southwest, but not likely. More likely for them to be babies that came off a kill lot (send the mares to kill and dump the babies once you have enough for a full load) or like the above poster mentioned, nurse mare foals.



No, didn't get your PM yet. There has been talk for years about this being done on the NN, some are against it, some are all for it and others don't want it known they are doing this. And is also going on at other reservations too. 

And these are not 'nursemare foals'. As I said in the OP, that is a scam perpetuated on the unknowing, to get money.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> This makes more sense than off the reservations. I don't know many Native Americans who would stand for this. Coming from kill buyers, futurity failures, nurse mare foals (though that willy nilly breeding seems to have gone the way of the old PMU breeders, they now know that there's a market for well bred foals over just .....mutts). I don't know a bunch of nurse mare folks, but the ones I do know, are extremely careful of their breeding and take care of the foals who need to have their mares sent out.


There are many who stand for this just fine, that is the problem. There are people in every group of people that only do things for money, and this is an instance of this. There are at low estimates 30,000 feral horses, and high estimates of over 50,000 on the NN. Being an Indian doesn't mean you revere horses, no more than anyone else.




These are not coming from kill buyers. These are not good quality foals in any sense of the word. And there isn't wide spread usage of nursemares in the Thoroughbred industry. Again, that is just a scam.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

It sounds like you've made up your mind about a group about which you know nothing. You've decided what you want to hear and don't care to hear suggestion that go against your prejudices.


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## LooneyTickAcres (Jun 23, 2015)

OP: I didn’t get a PM from you..

As for a response in general, I’m not 100% educated in the numbers of mares and foals that end up in the slaughter pipeline, but it just seems unlikely that hundreds of babies from slaughter bound mommas would be coming from a small region in NM every month. The racing industry... TB, QH and Arab, is really booming in NM. If you look at Craigslist in NM there can be several adds for nursemare foals in the $50-100 range. I don’t feel all these babies are crap either.... wherever my friends came from the breeder obviously bred for desirable colors.... two blue roans, duns, buckskins, a gray and paint varieties. There is a half draft, a TB and an Arab looking filly. The paints all are of similar type... I’d be willing to bet they have the same sire. Yes, they are rough looking from the difficult start, but none of them have glaringly awful faults. 

As for reservation horses... I’d think that more likely over slaughter bound stuff.

I don’t like it, but the reality is this will continue to happen. Especially when licensed veterinarians are right in the mix. All I can say is the ones my friend bought are doing well and coming along nicely. I know the same can’t be said for many of them, but I don’t think it’s right to make blanket statements without knowing the entire true story. 

I do hope the origins of these babies can be discovered. I know my friend will continue to try. It would be much nicer to work with the people doing this and set up a better network.... give these babies a better chance.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

The whole story sounds like a story to me. I’m sorry, but I am trying to be logical. If they were feral, as insinuated, that is a lot of horses in one place at once. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen huge herds in desolate areas before, but to gather them and take colts off... why? 

If I thought I was going to make money off the colts I would grow them to weaner age. No one I know wants anything to do with a lepy colt. If there were that many feral horses all managed and gathered why not sell huge lots of yearlings? Well, mustang yearlings don’t sell worth a crap as it is, so okay. 

I don’t see a reservation doing so either myself. If they were so willing to dump foals why not dump truck loads of horses actually worth some money? What money is to be made in a foal?

This is where it loses me. Maybe an auction can come up with a load of foals, but a small load at that. Then maybe you say, well there is money in the mares for meat. Okay, if I follow that train of thought wouldn’t I assume to raise the load of foals to weaner age, then turn the mares for meat and later sell horses worth money? 

The whole thing does not make a lick of sense to me. There is not money in a lepy animal. Leppies, horses or calves or any livestock animal, have always been give away animals. No one wants one unless they have another to graft it on to or a milk cow.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Subbing, I find this thread oddly fascinating. No knowing where it will end...


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Since my PM didn't go through, apparently, this is the response in a nutshell from a friend on the Navajo reservation.

"It doesn't add up for these to be NN horses. First of all, this is really early for Navajo Rez foals. Most mares around here start foaling in mid-June. 

The NN is very strict about not letting anyone do roundups except their own rangers. Unless some people came onto the Rez and went deep into the areas where there are horses and very few people and rounded up the horses. But they'd have to erect holding pens and bring in numerous trucks and trailers. I just don't see that happening without someone noticing. We're pretty much 'in the know' on most horses coming and going off the Rez, and we certainly would have heard through connections of THIS MANY horses rounded up. The NN is huge, but news travels. 

If they were NN horses, they had to have been from NN sanctioned roundups. Which again, I haven't heard of any this year. Even when all of those horses got stuck in the mud around that stock pond, the NN didn't order any roundups. 

If these came off a reservation it was probably from a different Rez than ours. Or from various reservations. There are 5 or 6 reservations in this area, but most people only know of the Navajo, so just say that name. But there's also Hopi (AZ), Acoma, Zuni, Apache, Laguna, etc. 

Some of the reservations up in Montana are known to ship excess horses to slaughter-- any chance they came from there? I would assume foals from Montana would be better-served to be sold closer to there, or simply fed up to slaughter weight and sent to McCleod plant, but you never know. 

The other reservations have way less strict rules about rounding up the horses and selling them. I am very confident that these horses did not come off the NN. 

To have 80 foals at a time, that means you'd have to round up probably eight to ten separate herds of feral horses, and they'd all have to have foals at their sides, or be heavily in foal. This would take probably at least 2 to 3 weeks to conduct. Feral horses are not that easy to catch-- they are wise to roundups and trap pens, and even harder to catch without some sharp-eyed person noticing the dust and calling it in. 

Then you'd have to house all of those horses at one location until you were done with all of the roundups, and they'd have had 100+ mares with foals at their sides. 

Then you'd have to call a KB and sell them all. He'd come in and take the mares, and you'd truck all the foals halfways across the country? 

Who has room for 100+ mares with foals PLUS the other horses you'd end up capturing that don't have foals? And why go thru the headache of rounding up and housing mares and foals? Why not just wait until the foals are bigger? 

Here's what makes more sense to me:

Feedlot has a bunch of horses. Mares get bred. Feedlot owner wants to ship mares until they're heavy in foal because they'll weigh more. 

Mares end up foaling because: 
a. The lot gets QTd 
b. Buyer refuses to take heavy pg mares
c. Wtf ever else might go on

Mares then all have babies at various times across a 2 month time frame. Soon as enough mares have foaled to make a load, separate mares and foals. Send mares to canner, sell foals to a broker who's willing to deal with the headache of selling them to the rescue groups."


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Also, having seen pics of some of the NN reservation foals my friend has rescued (usually after the mare has been hit by a car and someone brought the foal to her), these foals are a lot taller and leggier than most res foals.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Anybody that would take that many foals away from their mama's at that age is evil.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

@Silver Maple, that sounds a lot closer to reality.


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## LooneyTickAcres (Jun 23, 2015)

Ok... to share the information from my end..

All the foals from the Nevada, Missouri sale barn, who were a part of a 200 head shipment from NM to Kansas, had Coggins paperwork from yucca veterinary medical center in Belen, NM. The owner and his wife (Florian and Stephanie Sanchez) of this veterinary clinic are the listed owners on the Coggins paperwork. Calls were made, but answers were not given, stating client confidentiality.

Yucca Veterinary Medical Center

Digging around online leads to a large family cattle operation and ties to the horse racing industry. Think what you will, but I don’t feel these are KB babies. There was no money to be made on them really.... $50-$150 a baby. That doesn’t hardly cover fuel expenses of trucking them that far. It makes far more sense that the original “owners” needed a quick, untraceable outlet for these by products aka babies.....

Anyway... that’s all the info I have to offer. I’m curious to see if this happens again next year at this time....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

LooneyTickAcres said:


> Ok... to share the information from my end..
> 
> All the foals from the Nevada, Missouri sale barn, who were a part of a 200 head shipment from NM to Kansas, had Coggins paperwork from yucca veterinary medical center in Belen, NM. The owner and his wife (Florian and Stephanie Sanchez) of this veterinary clinic are the listed owners on the Coggins paperwork. Calls were made, but answers were not given, stating client confidentiality.
> 
> ...


They also don't sound like feral horses off the NN.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

THANK YOU to all who are thinking about this, and have information as well as other scenarios.

Have been told that there may have been 18 foals bought in Jamesport MO, I am not sure which load, but they were hauled to CA, time frame would be between middle of May and middle of July, so hopefully someone may remember seeing orphan foals advertised or talked about on their horse groups, or just in general conversation with other horsey folks.

The scenario as to the feedlots, is that something that can be checked out further by people in the area? At least some of the paperwork said Las Lunas, NM on it....Coggins papers didn't match so who knows...but that would help if anyone could do some digging. That was a thought I had, as we have at least 3 'buyers' in my county alone, one who had at last count 400 horses that he sells for slaughter, including BLM branded Mustangs. Would not be far fetched for him or someone like him, to get a lot of foals on the ground.

Keep the posts coming, and any digging anyone can do is greatly appreciated.

As for Laguna Pueblo, I spoke with Richard Bonine, who is the Rangeland District Manager and he said that these foals did not come from his reservation. There are cameras on all of the gates, and he would have to sign off on any horses leaving there.


Also, if any of you belong to FB groups in your area, state or anywhere, ask about if anyone remembers orphaned foals being talked about, or photos of them or ????

Please check CL in your state too, as there have been ads for the foals over the spring and summer on there.

Every little bit of information helps greatly.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

LooneyTickAcres said:


> OP: I didn’t get a PM from you..
> 
> As for a response in general, I’m not 100% educated in the numbers of mares and foals that end up in the slaughter pipeline, but it just seems unlikely that hundreds of babies from slaughter bound mommas would be coming from a small region in NM every month. The racing industry... TB, QH and Arab, is really booming in NM. If you look at Craigslist in NM there can be several adds for nursemare foals in the $50-100 range. I don’t feel all these babies are crap either.... wherever my friends came from the breeder obviously bred for desirable colors.... two blue roans, duns, buckskins, a gray and paint varieties. There is a half draft, a TB and an Arab looking filly. The paints all are of similar type... I’d be willing to bet they have the same sire. Yes, they are rough looking from the difficult start, but none of them have glaringly awful faults.
> 
> ...


I sent you another one..hope this one works?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here in OK there have been LOTS of foals on the feedlots here and in TX and LA. The rescuers have been really working overtime to get them. They've been on Stanley Bros, Kaufmann, JS Ranch, at Bristow (MidAmerica Livestock Auction), Wister, OK.... Can't recall all of the places I've seen really young foals advertised lately. None have been advertised as 'orphans', but have been showing with their dams or right after their dams have been pulled. They are trying to rehome the foals before they get sick, which is an exercise in futility. MANY have not made it. The worst of the worst feed lots seem to get the most foals.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Knave said:


> The whole story sounds like a story to me. I’m sorry, but I am trying to be logical. If they were feral, as insinuated, that is a lot of horses in one place at once. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen huge herds in desolate areas before, but to gather them and take colts off... why?
> 
> If I thought I was going to make money off the colts I would grow them to weaner age. No one I know wants anything to do with a lepy colt. If there were that many feral horses all managed and gathered why not sell huge lots of yearlings? Well, mustang yearlings don’t sell worth a crap as it is, so okay.
> 
> ...



I wish it were a story. And Lord knows there have been several told that did turn out to be 'stories' too.

PMU....nope not that.

Nursemare foals....nope not that either. ** Although I did and still some part of me does feel that this may be where the "poor orphan nursemare foals" are coming from, to turn for a profit. 

Reservations in KS, OK...all of those were told too. But what paperwork there has been said NM on it. And NM has been a recurring origin from various people too. 

As for no one wanting the "lepy animals"...does that mean a throwaway animal? As in unwanted? If so...

Well.. I would think there wasn't any money in throwaway foals either BUT...when my friend started trying to help find homes for the July 13th load? She had over 200 people respond wanting to buy a foal. I had probably 100 as well. And that was at prices up to 200 dollars by that point. Someone sure was buying them.

And this was the 4th load too, 80 foals that were sure making the Amish man and the English man money, and that isn't even factoring in the other 240 foals. The 2nd load was brought in May 25th and they were all gone by Monday the 28th. The 3rd load was brought in June 29th and even with being a holiday on 7/4/18, those foals were all gone that week as well.

Foals that, if they were alive of course, were being bought within days of landing in Jamesport. IF the Amish man and the English partner got them free for the hauling, and at least the English man owns semis to haul livestock, they paid $1050 for the load to be hauled, check handed to driver and there is a witness to that. So still made money on them. 

Other KB were offered the foals before hauled into Jamesport, for 25 dollars, some were offered foals for 10 dollars, others got them free.

Again, from what is being told to me, this isn't a sanctioned roundup, it is a 'let's go out and bring up some horses and sell them' done over period of several weeks, maybe even month of so. The green letters and numbers on the palomino foal as well as the other colors used on some of the others, makes me feel like they were brought in by different people.

Thanks for your post.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Florida does have import requirements including negative coggins and health certificates. 

The certificate of veterinary inspection must accompany the animals to their final destinations in Florida. The certificate of veterinary inspection must be legible and fully completed by the issuing accredited veterinarian and must include the following:

The name and address of the consignor;
The name and address of the consignee;
The point of origin and premises identification number, if assigned by state officials in the animal’s state of origin;
The point of destination;
The date of examination;
The number of animals examined;
The sex, age, name and breed of each identified animal;
The establishment or premises location at which the animal was examined;
The body temperature at examination;
Color and markings of each animal; and
Prior permission number, if required.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

FWIW, the KB lots around here sell foals for about $50 -$100 every spring (if you take several, they will drop the price even more). Some mares foal before they ship, so the foals are sold or given away, as the sooner after foaling the mare ships, the more she weighs, apparently. They used to just shoot the foals, but now they have a chance, at least. They'll let the foal suckle a day or two to get colostrum then ship the mare. Some of the draft horse guys get a couple every year and graft them onto their big draft mares, who can suckle their own foal plus the orphan easily, then give the foals to local 4H kids at weaning.

If a small local KB ends up with 30 - 50 foals each spring, the big lots would have thousands....


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I doubt they are wild horses as they would have some level of immunity with the exception of the underage foals. If they are highly diseased it sounds much more likely that they came from a kill lot or large auction house where they were exposed to other sick animals. 

Why not report this to the department of agriculture and have them open an investigation? Strangles and other infectious diseases are reportable and should be traced to the farm of origin.


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## LooneyTickAcres (Jun 23, 2015)

@4horses.... these foals all had Coggins paperwork traced back to Belen or Las Cruces NM. I don’t believe they left NM diseased, but became ill from the stresses of transport, layover yards, etc. Hard to say if they all got colostrum initially too, so they were all just highly susceptible. Since origin shows most of these foals owned by the vet clinic in my link above, there is no way to determine origin unless the vet is forced to talk..... they refuse to stating client confidentiality. 

I don’t know where they came from.... paper trail starts in NM. I don’t feel they are KB babies, nor do I feel they are reservation babies. The number of race horse farms in the Belen NM area is rather large. I can’t say they are nursemare babies either.... all I do know is the sheer number of foals from that exact region was staggering.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

LooneyTickAcres said:


> Ok... to share the information from my end..
> 
> All the foals from the Nevada, Missouri sale barn, who were a part of a 200 head shipment from NM to Kansas, had Coggins paperwork from yucca veterinary medical center in Belen, NM. The owner and his wife (Florian and Stephanie Sanchez) of this veterinary clinic are the listed owners on the Coggins paperwork. Calls were made, but answers were not given, stating client confidentiality.
> 
> ...


I think that if Yucca Vet will not answer questions, their local news media should ask the questions. It looks like to me that they have enough of a practice going to make a living without being parasites.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

https://www.facebook.com/valenciacountynewsbulletin/

news-bulletin.com | Serving Valencia County Since 1910

Belen, NM News Â» Topix

https://www.kob.com/

https://www.krqe.com/news


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i would contact the last chance corral. they take in hundreds of nurse mare foals every year around this age. they might have ways of finding out or may need a heads up so they can QT new foals better.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Of course you can't find out where the foals come from, but the department of agriculture can. I think you should at least call them and discuss your concerns. They may send someone out.

For that matter someone from the department of agriculture dropped by my farm for "boarding stable inspection" just a few weeks ago. So I think it is absolutely worth calling them and telling them about the sick foals.

Looney tick acres maybe you and your friend could call. They may need you to send pictures or documentation on the foals you rescued.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here's the catch if the horses come from the KB. They collect paper like it's artwork. Just because your foal has a Coggins, doesn't mean it actually belongs to that foal. And a 'sidestep' for the Coggins & Health Cert rules is: If a horse is designated as "for slaughter" they frequently aren't required to have one. I don't know if that's Federal or differs from State to State, but I know in states like OK, MO, LA, TX they aren't required. Of course, a foal under 6 months isn't supposed to go for slaughter anyhow but.........yeah, well.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Last Chance Corral : Ohio Horse and Foal Rescue


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Interesting. Visited with a couple of folks last night at a meeting and slaughter, etc. came up, and one mentioned that her daughter, who lives near St. Joe, MO went to a sale in June intending to purchase hay, and came home with two foals-- both under 2 weeks old. She had a mare who had lost her foal, and was able to milk the mare to feed the foals. There were four foals at the sale all brought in by an Amish man who said he got them at another sale, but his mares wouldn't accept these babies and he wasn't going to bottle feed them, so if anyone wanted one, they could take their pick. Her daughter took two, the other two were bought by a woman and daughter who raise Belgians. This wasn't a horse sale-- it was a hay/tack/equipment sale and the foals were the only horses sold there.

Both of these babies are tobiano black and white, and both are gaited-- she thinks they are both TWH. One of the others was chestnut, the fourth dun. Those were not gaited. Her two foals were very weak, but weren't sick and pulled through fine. 

She's going to see if her daughter has any more info-- it could be unrelated, but the timing and placement is right that these orphans could be off the same shipment. If there are gaited horses in the mix, it's extremely unlikely these came off a reservation, and a KB or nursemare program is much more likely.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Here's the catch if the horses come from the KB. They collect paper like it's artwork. Just because your foal has a Coggins, doesn't mean it actually belongs to that foal. And a 'sidestep' for the Coggins & Health Cert rules is: If a horse is designated as "for slaughter" they frequently aren't required to have one. I don't know if that's Federal or differs from State to State, but I know in states like OK, MO, LA, TX they aren't required. Of course, a foal under 6 months isn't supposed to go for slaughter anyhow but.........yeah, well.


That's true... there's a guy locally here who supplements his retirement savings by buying horses cheap at sales, feeding them up, and sending them to slaughter. If you know him, he'll sometimes sell out of the pens to private individuals. He can dig through his office to find paperwork to match any horse you could want... blue roan QH gelding with a star? Hold on a minute..... yep. Which set of papers do you want for him? Six years old or 10 years old? Take your pick. 

He has Coggins paperwork by the boxful.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Dang. That is terrible.

What is a KB horse?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Kill Buyer


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I hope people that read this realize that you should never sell a pregnant mare or breed a substandard mare.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Just beware a feedlot in Colorado had a EIA positive horse that was there in August. Wouldn't buy anything from a feedlot just to risky. The lot is under quarantine for 60 days when all horses left get re tested. 

There were horse's there that left before the positive horse was discovered. So who knows where the horse's rehomed in that time frame ended up.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

rambo99 said:


> Just beware a feedlot in Colorado had a EIA positive horse that was there in August. Wouldn't buy anything from a feedlot just to risky. The lot is under quarantine for 60 days when all horses left get re tested.
> 
> There were horse's there that left before the positive horse was discovered. So who knows where the horse's rehomed in that time frame ended up.


We've had a couple positive horses down in SE OK too this summer. Scary stuff.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I suspect that the kind of people that would put these babies in the predicament that they are in wouldn't give a hoot about spreading EIA either. How long does EIA take to show up once a horse is exposed to it?


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

LoriF said:


> I suspect that the kind of people that would put these babies in the predicament that they are in wouldn't give a hoot about spreading EIA either. How long does EIA take to show up once a horse is exposed to it?


Guessing must be 60 days the positive horse in CO was discovered in mid August. They are retesting in 60 days. Might depend on state you're in, but dont know.

Last I knew the state was trying to trace where positive horse originated from. So possibly more EIA horse's out there that aren't known about.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

It sounds like the positive horse either came from, or also traveled into Wyoming. The problem with Coggins is that it takes awhile to show up, so horses that came off this lot that tested clear may have been exposed, and without a way of knowing what other horses may have come into contact with it before it was discovered, the rabbit hole may go deep.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Those babies ARE too leggy, IMO, to be 'mustang' foals like would come off a reservation. We have a friend that has an arrangement to have, I think, 500 BLM horses on his 3000 acre ranch. They are given free range of the place and are some of the most handsome BLM horses you'll ever see. Every year he has a marathon to raise awareness of the mustangs, and the BLM will bring in weaned foals to sell for a $50 or $75 adoption fee. They do not look like those babies at all. Those look like KB foals.

I've seen true mustangs after we had a couple of herds in this area overrunning someone's ranch - they were rounded up. A few horses were abandoned QH's that had been literally dumped out like unwanted dogs, but the real mustangs and mustang foals were easy to spot - short and quick, small built, very hot.

Kill pen foals - when my daughter picked up Sally (Heavily pregnant with Outback at the time), there were 60-75 foals, all under a year old. This was out of north Texas, down by Granbury/Fort Worth somewhere. She said it just broke their heart to see all those babies standing around, orphaned.

I know a local guy, don't think much of him... he has no horsemanship skills, but if he thinks something will make him 5 bucks, he'll sell it. He has 80 mares WITH FOALS on them right now... and he's willing to split them up for a price, per load. 

Where he came by that darn many, I have no idea, but one thing is clear - there's a helluva lot of unwanted mares having foals. Which brings us back to the question: WHY? How? Who is breeding all these horses? I mean, it's not like they're unspayed dogs and cats and make a run for it when the front door is open while in heat and pop out two or three litters of babies a year, which then mature in like 6 months and the cycle repeats so the population explodes exponentially.

Who the hell is that irresponsible to let that many mares get bred... then ship them off to auctions and kill pens? That doesn't make a bit of sense financially.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

SilverMaple said:


> It sounds like the positive horse either came from, or also traveled into Wyoming. The problem with Coggins is that it takes awhile to show up, so horses that came off this lot that tested clear may have been exposed, and without a way of knowing what other horses may have come into contact with it before it was discovered, the rabbit hole may go deep.


Annnd this is why I confidently believe the coggins test is so each state can try to ding horse owners for chicken scratch a year. That little bit of money they get, minus the vet fee, adds up... and the negative results papers are next to useless, because a busy horse can cover a LOT of ground in 60 days (before symptoms show up) and spread it all over the place before it's caught.

But hey - they had their papers.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

9 facilities in Colorado and Wyoming currently quarantined due to that EIA-positive horse, with three more pending from an article I saw this morning.

I agree that the Coggins test is pretty pointless... because if you have a horse tested and he tests positive, he is euthed or strictly quarantined for life. But if you have a horse who never leaves the state, he could be a carrier and travel within the state his whole life and never once be tested. 

Coggins papers are passed around for the full six months on numerous horses by the KB's and unscrupulous sellers, especially for something generic like a sorrel gelding with a sock...


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Which brings us back to the question: WHY? How? Who is breeding all these horses? I mean, it's not like they're unspayed dogs and cats and make a run for it when the front door is open while in heat and pop out two or three litters of babies a year, which then mature in like 6 months and the cycle repeats so the population explodes exponentially.
> 
> Who the hell is that irresponsible to let that many mares get bred... then ship them off to auctions and kill pens? That doesn't make a bit of sense financially.


People with a stallion and not enough common sense to geld him. Or people who see some nice foals selling for a decent price, and decide their ugly stud and a bunch of cheap mares are a money-making proposition. It seems most of the people breeding shouldn't be, and those who have nice stock aren't breeding much anymore-- because if you do it right, you have more in the foal than you can sell him for unless he's super spectacular (or a Friesian cross, but I digress.....) 

Some KBs breed because it's money. If they have pasture or cheap hay, run a couple of studs out with the mares in the spring, feed them free or cheap for a year, wean early and ship the mares. Now you have a bunch of colts that can be fed up and shipped too. One guy around here has access to about 800 acres of lush river pasture. He figures it costs him $25 to raise a foal to weaning from one of his mares if he has to feed hay (he puts it up himself) and if we get a good winter, he won't even do that, and he does zero vetwork. So if you have access to that much good pasture, you can make money. He breeds every mare he can get his hands on, sells some weanlings that turn out well or are buckskin or roan, gives a couple away to 4H clubs, and ships the rest whenever they're at a good weight and prices are high. This used to be very common among the big QH breeders--- sell the best, keep some, cull (ship) the remainder. One of the old-time revered breeders, Pitzer perhaps? said you needed to breed 500 foals to get 1 or 2 good ones. No prizes guessing what happened to the rest.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Palomine said:


> Again, from what is being told to me, this isn't a sanctioned roundup, it is a 'let's go out and bring up some horses and sell them' done over period of several weeks, maybe even month of so. The green letters and numbers on the palomino foal as well as the other colors used on some of the others, makes me feel like they were brought in by different people.


So here's my question--- if this were the case, why do it so early when so many foals are young? Why not wait a few months when you can ship ALL of the horses, and not have to deal with finding a hauler for, and selling young babies, many of whom will die before you can make a dime off them? Wait until fall to do your illegal gathers, the horses will be fatter than they would be coming off winter, AND you can ship all of them. Doesn't add up.

Now a KB short of hay will ship the mares and be more than glad to unload the babies for a few bucks apiece. Makes far more sense.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Here in OK there have been LOTS of foals on the feedlots here and in TX and LA. The rescuers have been really working overtime to get them. They've been on Stanley Bros, Kaufmann, JS Ranch, at Bristow (MidAmerica Livestock Auction), Wister, OK.... Can't recall all of the places I've seen really young foals advertised lately. None have been advertised as 'orphans', but have been showing with their dams or right after their dams have been pulled. They are trying to rehome the foals before they get sick, which is an exercise in futility. MANY have not made it. The worst of the worst feed lots seem to get the most foals.




Are they selling these off, giving them away, being taken in lots or individually? 

These foals at least, were not taken off the lots by rescuers, they were in too bad a shape and not given any of the care a rescue would give. 

These just showed up, sans dams. Were the ones you saw, marked on the sides with numbers and letters?

Thanks, I will go check out those names, did you see them in person or saw them being advertised?


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

4horses said:


> Florida does have import requirements including negative coggins and health certificates.
> 
> The certificate of veterinary inspection must accompany the animals to their final destinations in Florida. The certificate of veterinary inspection must be legible and fully completed by the issuing accredited veterinarian and must include the following:
> 
> ...



I believe all states have this in effect. But these foals had nothing with them in at least 2 of the loads, and the driver of the June 29th load boasted he had 'run the scales' meaning he had driven around them to avoid them. The 3rd and 4th load, (and again this is just the loads I know of personally) had Coggins that did not match or were photocopies.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

SilverMaple said:


> 9 facilities in Colorado and Wyoming currently quarantined due to that EIA-positive horse, with three more pending from an article I saw this morning.
> 
> I agree that the Coggins test is pretty pointless... because if you have a horse tested and he tests positive, he is euthed or strictly quarantined for life. But if you have a horse who never leaves the state, he could be a carrier and travel within the state his whole life and never once be tested.
> 
> Coggins *papers are passed around for the full six months* on numerous horses by the KB's and unscrupulous sellers, especially for something generic like a sorrel gelding with a sock...


They're good for a year in Oklahoma. Imagine how far you could go with a horse that's positive with it, just within the state, but if you live in a border county, how far a horse that has it, or one with false papers/borrowed off someone, could travel in a year?

Texas, Arkansas, Kansas, Colorado, New Mexico.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> FWIW, the KB lots around here sell foals for about $50 -$100 every spring (if you take several, they will drop the price even more). Some mares foal before they ship, so the foals are sold or given away, as the sooner after foaling the mare ships, the more she weighs, apparently. They used to just shoot the foals, but now they have a chance, at least. They'll let the foal suckle a day or two to get colostrum then ship the mare. Some of the draft horse guys get a couple every year and graft them onto their big draft mares, who can suckle their own foal plus the orphan easily, then give the foals to local 4H kids at weaning.
> 
> If a small local KB ends up with 30 - 50 foals each spring, the big lots would have thousands....


Where are you located, not specific but in general, are these KBs hauling foals as far away as what these have been? It is 16 hours and that is a hard haul if they are coming from middle of NM too.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> i would contact the last chance corral. they take in hundreds of nurse mare foals every year around this age. they might have ways of finding out or may need a heads up so they can QT new foals better.


That whole nursemare foal thing is a scam. And they are the worst of the lot.

At most they take in under 200 anyway, thinking this year only 'saved' less than 130 is what I saw. For almost 300K in donations.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

4horses said:


> Of course you can't find out where the foals come from, but the department of agriculture can. I think you should at least call them and discuss your concerns. They may send someone out.
> For that matter someone from the department of agriculture dropped by my farm for "boarding stable inspection" just a few weeks ago. So I think it is absolutely worth calling them and telling them about the sick foals.
> 
> Looney tick acres maybe you and your friend could call. They may need you to send pictures or documentation on the foals you rescued.


To actively get something going is like pulling hen's teeth, but working on it. I had originally contacted them, both in MO and at federal level too, and got the 'well call here' and 'this is the number you need to call' from both agencies, and federal level was not helpful at all.

But had better success this week..so cross your fingers.

LooneyTickAcres foals though, came from different scenario entirely, they had paperwork and did not appear to be so sickly in the photos she posted, although she did say one had passed.

In the foals cases I am looking into, half of them didn't make it. So figuring 160 or more are now dead, as there were 320 foals.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Here's the catch if the horses come from the KB. They collect paper like it's artwork. Just because your foal has a Coggins, doesn't mean it actually belongs to that foal. And a 'sidestep' for the Coggins & Health Cert rules is: If a horse is designated as "for slaughter" they frequently aren't required to have one. I don't know if that's Federal or differs from State to State, but I know in states like OK, MO, LA, TX they aren't required. Of course, a foal under 6 months isn't supposed to go for slaughter anyhow but.........yeah, well.



Good analogy...that is exactly what it seemed to be like.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Interesting. Visited with a couple of folks last night at a meeting and slaughter, etc. came up, and one mentioned that her daughter, who lives near St. Joe, MO went to a sale in June intending to purchase hay, and came home with two foals-- both under 2 weeks old. She had a mare who had lost her foal, and was able to milk the mare to feed the foals. There were four foals at the sale all brought in by an Amish man who said he got them at another sale, but his mares wouldn't accept these babies and he wasn't going to bottle feed them, so if anyone wanted one, they could take their pick. Her daughter took two, the other two were bought by a woman and daughter who raise Belgians. This wasn't a horse sale-- it was a hay/tack/equipment sale and the foals were the only horses sold there.
> 
> Both of these babies are tobiano black and white, and both are gaited-- she thinks they are both TWH. One of the others was chestnut, the fourth dun. Those were not gaited. Her two foals were very weak, but weren't sick and pulled through fine.
> 
> She's going to see if her daughter has any more info-- it could be unrelated, but the timing and placement is right that these orphans could be off the same shipment. If there are gaited horses in the mix, it's extremely unlikely these came off a reservation, and a KB or nursemare program is much more likely.



This is interesting, as I know from someone else in St. Joe area that there were also some CL ads for some of these foals too.

Anything she can remember, such as when auction was, where the Amish man was from, would be great. I know there are Amish near Stanberry, not sure how many there might be near St. Joe, and I only live 45 miles from there myself.
Or if she sees the people that took the other 2 to see how those ended up doing.

Someone else said they came across someone who had gotten one of the very young foals but didn't want to spend money on it, so was selling it for 350 dollars???

As for the gaited stock, some of the Navajo do ride gaited horses, the Monument Valley has trail rides of various length, guided by Navajo and some of them are riding Walkng Horses. And there is a gait called the Indian Shuffle too that is present in Appaloosas, so some might have been bred too with other stock?

But....the nursemare 'rescues' also advertise they have "Applachian Warmblood" foals too...whatever that is supposed to be, and many of them are pinto colored. 

This is great information, and the more that know about this, the more we may find out too.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> So here's my question--- if this were the case, why do it so early when so many foals are young? Why not wait a few months when you can ship ALL of the horses, and not have to deal with finding a hauler for, and selling young babies, many of whom will die before you can make a dime off them? Wait until fall to do your illegal gathers, the horses will be fatter than they would be coming off winter, AND you can ship all of them. Doesn't add up.
> 
> Now a KB short of hay will ship the mares and be more than glad to unload the babies for a few bucks apiece. Makes far more sense.


I have asked this too...but...if they are being gathered like pop cans, they are wanting the money for the ones they have brought in and that means they have to go then, not later. And these gathered horses may have been standing around for month or so too, until enough were there to make sense to call KBs in.

And...right now, the "oh this poor foal" pull...and the 'rescuers' wanting to flip some of these foals as well...they sell better as 'poor things' than as bigger foals.

Only thing I can guess....when we started trying to find homes for the 50 left from July 13th load...between the 2 of us, we had 300 people messaging wanting foals. So there is a huge market for these sickly babies.

You and I and most of the rest commenting on this, know the time and money...but most of them did not.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Palomine said:


> Where are you located, not specific but in general, are these KBs hauling foals as far away as what these have been? It is 16 hours and that is a hard haul if they are coming from middle of NM too.



I'm in Iowa. The foals are born to the mares in the pens waiting for a load, or if they buy a mare with a foal at side. KB's either keep the foals until they're big enough to ship, or sell them at the local sales or privately. Most horses in our area used to ship to Canada to slaughter, but Wyoming is stricter than most states on paperwork, so now most go to Mexico instead. It's shorter, but hotter, so they haul straight through in the summer and try to run the hottest portion of the trip at night so the horses don't sweat off too many pounds of water. The KBs will try to ship mares before they foal as they weigh more, but it doesn't always work out.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Sad that these farmers are turning out foals every year, and indiscriminately breeding their mares when the good breeders are cutting back or not breeding at all. But I suppose breeding horses on a large farm is no different than raising cattle.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

For anyone in colorado or wyoming here's the latest the EIA posted on FB i screenshotted it.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

4horses said:


> Sad that these farmers are turning out foals every year, and indiscriminately breeding their mares when the good breeders are cutting back or not breeding at all. But I suppose breeding horses on a large farm is no different than raising cattle.


The draft horse industry is constantly reminding people that Asian buyers are paying big money for young draft horses, because even with shipping them overseas, they gain quickly and are highly in demand for meat. Even well-bred, registered foals are selling at auction to slaughter for a LOT of money-- sometimes more than someone wanting them to use can pay. They are telling people that if they want to ensure their horses don't go to slaughter, sell privately even if you have to take less. There were literally truckloads of draft weanlings and yearlings, and quite a few broke teams of nice, registered horses headed for a dinner plate in Asia at the last sale I went to.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> The draft horse industry is constantly reminding people that Asian buyers are paying big money for young draft horses, because even with shipping them overseas, they gain quickly and are highly in demand for meat. Even well-bred, registered foals are selling at auction to slaughter for a LOT of money-- sometimes more than someone wanting them to use can pay. They are telling people that if they want to ensure their horses don't go to slaughter, sell privately even if you have to take less. There were literally truckloads of draft weanlings and yearlings, and quite a few broke teams of nice, registered horses headed for a dinner plate in Asia at the last sale I went to.


This is exactly why my horses are here for their lifetime. IMO we should not be exporting any horses or livestock of any kind. Let them eat what they raise or send them a load of corn or wheat or other grains.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

4horses said:


> Sad that these farmers are turning out foals every year, and indiscriminately breeding their mares when the good breeders are cutting back or not breeding at all. But I suppose breeding horses on a large farm is no different than raising cattle.


These aren't farmers per se, these are horses that are feral, wild horses that don't fall under BLM because they are on the rez.

No one is breeding these on purpose though.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ there are plenty of farmers and ranchers who still raise a ton of babies every year, and ship the ones that don't sell privately to slaughter in the fall. Happens all the time. I know one man a few miles from us. He breeds some really, really nice QH babies. Some don't turn out so great, and those end up at a cheap sale or worse. But he has a lot of pasture and grows his own hay, and he breeds probably 75 mares a year to his own stallions and doesn't have a ton of cost in them. Anything not purchased by the fall of their yearling year goes to the sale barn aside from the half a dozen or so he keeps to start and sell as rope horses. Some sell to private individuals, some go to slaughter. He has a few folks come work with the weanlings to get them used to being handled so they are marketable. Those that aren't easy to train or put up too much of a hassle go to sale immediately. Anything but negative on the 5-panel goes straight to the kill pen. Any mare that has problems foaling more than once, or produces a foal without a good temperament is either sold or shipped. Stallions who get difficult to handle or aren't producing good conformation and temperament don't get a second season. Anything that bucks more than the first couple of saddlings is shipped. Anything that can't thrive on pasture and grass hay gets shipped. Anything lame enough basic hoofcare won't fix gets shipped. His philosophy is 'sell the best, ship the rest' and he holds to it. He's old school, and a lot of the ranches used to operate this way, and I suspect more do than let on. He has quite a few people who buy from him because he produces good-looking, using horses that don't need to be pampered to thrive. 

The halter horse breeders are also notorious for dumping N/H or H/H horses at sales sold as 'grade'. If you see a nice looking quarter horse weanling or yearling sold as grade at a sale, beware. If you buy him, get him tested.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

There were foals at KS auction in September I was told, state vet may have been involved with them, will do FOIA and see what I am told.

I did get another "we are investigating" letter from 2nd request on them here in MO.

Was told that 2 more loads came into MO also in September, keeping it off FB.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

No matter who they sell to, they ought to let those babies stay with their mama for at least 4 months. It should be illegal. It technically is in most states. Cruelty to animals is a felony in many states.


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