# A kinder way (off-topic discussions)



## palogal (May 30, 2008)

*MODERATOR NOTE:*
Original thread asked about ways to train a horse that did not include whips and spurs. The following discussions were intertwined within that thread, taking away from the OP's original question. Horse forum staff split the thread but left the remainder of the discussion in the original thread. Apologies to participants that may be confused or lost posts with the moderations.


*palogal post:*
Whips and spurs are not cruel in the least. Like everything else, they have to be used correctly. They are actually kinder than repeatedly nagging the horse with your leg and pounding his sides , as the spur requires much less pressure to use and a whip is not meant to sting, it's meant to reinforce your leg.
Anyone who is using these things harshly is not a trainer.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> Yes, It definitely sounds like abuse. And to your first statement above - I wish! But that is why I tend to stay away from horse shows these days. Way too much abuse, be it blatant, like OP's egs, or 'just' the usual heavy hands, overbent horses with their mouths tied shut, etc. I am guessing OP is asking about 'better ways' so she can go to that show as a GOOD eg.


Yes, but lets face it, you don't need to go to a horse show to see abuse
It is also no reason to stay away from shows, and in fact, the people I admire, are those that do show, but do not surcome to'win at all cost'
Very easy to say, 'not I,' while never standing up to your principles' under fire'.
Kinda like Jobe, who was tested, yet stayed true, and JudAS, who did not!
Sorry, for biblical reference, but easiest one I could find.
I can go to dude stables, trail riding outfits, heck, just watch some trail riders, and I can see abuse, just as much as in the show scene
I have seen trail riders, sit like sacks, in western saddle, big curb bit in the mouth of the horse, two hands on the reins, and heavy contact, jerking on that horse's mouth constantly, and even adding a tie down at times
NOpe, good horsemen exist in the show ring, as well as outside of it, and so do those that abuse horses.
How about the outfitter, that did quick breaks on cheap un started colts, so they could make money in the dude string, soon as possible
Those young horses learned to'whoa, by the use of a running W. You know, chase them up into a gallop, yell whoa, and jerk the front feet out from under them. Those that survived, stopped!
Those survivors were then sent out barefoot, on day trips, and got sore, thus very compliant on trails, gimping along. Once they got really sore, front feet got shod
I do not condone horse abuse in any form, or methods used to win at all cost, with the horse being immaterial. However, I do object to the idea, that if you show, you must then use these abusive techniques, or if you don't, then all is heaven for the horse, with all those bad trainers/riders confined to showrings
Sorry to burst that bubble, but those horse mechanics are both in and out of the showring


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

No bubbles burst Smilie, I'm not naive, as you make it sound. But you certainly know how to win friends & influence people, calling me a Judas, & ASSUMING with NO cause that I don't stand up to my principles!! I will choose to ignore that thanks.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Chasin Ponies said:


> OP, the post by bsms is definitely worth reading carefully, so much truth for in it!!
> 
> 
> The sad thing is that out there in the real world there are an enormous number of people calling themselves trainers, desperately trying to make a living and abusing horses terribly in the process.
> ...


I agree that there are many people training horses, that are not horsemen'
Anyone, unfortunately can hang up a sign and call themselves a trainer, BUT the responsibility is also on the owner far as finding a good trainer .
Yes, at times that takes experience, getting into that 'inner circle of the horse community, where fellow trainers, horse owners, sure know who the good trainers that they respect, are.
Far as I'm concerned, any owner that sends a horse to a known abusive trainer, just because he gets perceived 'results, is just as guilty, far as the abuse to their hrose then that trainer
If you are aware of these abusive trainers, training behind closed doors, producing horses that need to be drugged in order to be ridden, then the owners of those hroses must know that fact also.
Listen to a seminar in horse 'ethics' where examples similar to the one you gave, are presented as a hypothetical situation, often with a vet also thrown in, and where the audience is asked, as to who is responsible, far as abuse to that horse
The answer, in almost all cases, is all three.

Far as saying most horses don't require whips or spurs, as me thinking you do not understand the correct use of either.
Certainly, I don't need to ride my horses with either whips or spurs, never use a whip, except a lunge whip, never train green horses with spurs, and certainly never ride with spurs, just trail riding.
Spurs are ridden with on ALL performance hroses, for refinement of cues, to teach ahorse, to respond to very, very light leg cues alone, instantly, thus only used secondary to ignored leg cues, and never if the hrose responds to those legs cues alone, and only tot he degree required for that response, which can be as slight as touching the hair of that horse's side.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Mulefeather said:


> I am a fan of clicker training, but I believe in it as a tool in the toolbox, rather than the whole toolbox.
> 
> I enjoy it as a way to bond, to refine behaviors, to build trust, and to get a horse excited about learning through play. It's also a great way to clarify "Yes, that is what I want you to do." That said, a horse also needs to learn to give to pressure, since that is how we primarily communicate with them. They also need to be respectful, knowing that while we can have fun, I also expect them to listen and accept my leadership.
> 
> ...



Yup.back to the same basic premise, that we seem to go round, and round and round on, and that is 'balance'
Far as Rashid, too Martial Arts for me, I read his book, but not a book I would get excited about.
Was he not also the person with all that mis information on jointed mouth curbs, calling them all TT, and not realizing how they function, esp used correctly?

I have nothing against clicker training, for those that need them, find them useful, esp working with abused horses, but good horsemen, who have enjoyed their horses, who produced willing happy horses, and who communicated to them clearly, did so, and still do, without the need of a clicker
I never used clicker training, yet like to think I have had very special relationships with quite a few of my horses, that they enjoyed working for me, that my cues were clear, that I trained them with empathy, feeling and fairness


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Smilie, in the 4-5 books of Rashid's I've read, I've never encountered anything on jointed curbs - or anything about "TT". 

He does have Aikido, but doesn't talk about it or promote it in most of his books. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here you go:


http://www.markrashid.com/docs/tomthumb.pdf


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Rashid is wrong about jointed curb bits. He is right about many things involving horses. I like his advice on how to work with a horse.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> http://www.markrashid.com/docs/tomthumb.pdf


I'd like to understand, finally, exactly what you think a Tom Thumb is and what Rashid says about it that you believe is wrong.

About the martial arts, he got into that decades after he became a horse trainer. And really, a big part of martial arts, especially tai chi of which I took classes for around two years, is becoming aware of your true inner self. And that is the person the horse knows, sees, and reads every day. And so, IMO, to know yourself as the horse knows you is quite applicable to horse training.

I know.........., that's a big jump you are not likely to make, but help me out on the Tom Thumb thingie you frequently bring up.

I'm all smiles..........


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

okay
A true Tom Thumb, is not just any jointed mouth shanked curb, but a very specific design, in spite of tack catalogs, that also call those same bits , shanked snaffles!
A true Tom Thumb, is a curb, with a jointed mouth piece, But also fixed , short, straight up and down shanks, and that is a very bad bit design
That bit is very severe, having about zero signal time, and certainly not designed for any direct rein signal, and can also have a nut cracker effect. Garbage any such bit!
However, a jointed mouth curb, shanks that are sweped back, loose jawed, as very good transitional bits, allowing still some direct reining, as needed, to help a horse moving from a snaffle to a curb
In fact, they have replaced the use of the double reins ( bosal and spade bit stage,) to move a horse to a bridle horse ( curb), rather then to the traditional spade bit horse, when the jointed loose jawed curb was not yet available, and when a horse went from a bosal or snaffle, right to a Mona Lisa or Spade
Thus, a loose jawed jointed mouth Curb, unlike what Rashid says, does allow for some direct reining, on a horse that has had the basics in a snaffle, and needs some help,at times ridden, one handed in a curb, and just any jointed mouth curb,does not a Tom Thumb make !

You don't need to take martial arts, to know how to relate to a horse, knowing your own strengths, nor do you need to have been abused in childhood, which seems to be a common denominator with Monty Roberts, Buck B and Rashid
Good horsemen have always been able to read a horse, and then use a suitable approach to that individual horse
A good horseman knows if a horse is truly upset by activity around him, or is just being buddy sour, and Taylor his approach accordingly


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Smilie said:


> ....
> You don't need to take martial arts, to know how to relate to a horse, knowing your own strengths, nor do you need to have been abused in childhood, which seems to be a common denominator with Monty Roberts, Buck B and Rashid


No, but it helps some people. One point -- aikido is not an aggressive contest type of thing. It's more about finding and moving from your core of energy, and how to respectfully dance with the energy of unpredictable others. It's a spiritual practice, body-mind integration. Cannot but be of help to those riders who are willing to learn from it, to my way of thinking. Even if you just learn how to fall without hurting yourself! A major part of beginning aikido practice is about falling well. 

Another point -- speaking from a certain amount of experience here, having a rough or lonely upbringing can be a doorway into understanding animals, who have some similarities with such children, being powerless and mute, yet full of emotions and needs. It is not that unusual a foundation for gifted animal trainers.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A TT or a jointed curb bit simply doesn't do the things Rashid says they do. For example:

"_Because of its shanks, any attempt at direct reining results in pressure on several different areas around the horse's mouth. For instance, if you are asking the horse to turn to the left, you will be pulling on the left rein, with the idea that the pressure from the bit will be on the right side of the horse's mouth, thereby turning the horse left. However, because the rein is attached to the bottom of a swiveling shank, pulling on the rein results in the shank turning and tipping in to the left side of the horse's face._"

Simply does not happen. It does not tip into the horse's face, nor can it. To do that, it would need to be able to swivel toward the horse's face at the mouthpiece. A Jr Cowhorse bit will do that, but not a Tom Thumb or most swiveling curb bits like a Billy Allen. The sleeve or the design of how the shank attaches to the mouthpiece prevents it from happening - and it is obvious if one tries it. All one needs to do is stand next to the horse and watch what happens.

"_If this wasn't bad enough, tipping the shank also results in the tightening up of the curb strap that is under the horse's chin. Suddenly, the simple act of asking the horse to turn to the left is no longer a simple act. The bit is applying so much pressure in so many places, that the horse has no clue as to what you were asking for in the first place._"

Again, that simply is not what happens. Same with:

"_Pulling back on the reins causes the hinged mouthpiece of the bit to collapse and jut forward and then downward inside the horse's mouth, putting pressure on the horse's tongue._ "

And on it goes. The things he says happen do not happen, or at least, I've never been able to replicate them. He says they happen with all curb bits with independent sides:

"_The headstall is attached to the top of the shank, as is some type of curb strap which fits around the bottom of the horse's jaw, in the chin area. These shanks swivel and are attached to the bit's mouthpiece. It is that one flaw in the bit's design that renders it almost totally useless when it comes to any kind of training which involves direct reining._"

As a rule - one I've been known to ignore - curb bits in western riding and a horse who needs direct reining do not go together. But I've violated that rule often enough to know what happens - and you can direct rein a horse fine in a Tom Thumb.

The only problem I see with a Tom Thumb is that they have straight shanks. If the horse carries its head at a 45 degree angle, the weight of the reins will rotate the bit 45 degrees, so the weight of the reins is under the mouthpiece. By this time, the curb strap is tightening and you lose the period of free rotation that signals to the horse what you are asking without putting pressure in his mouth - which is the chief advantage of a well ridden curb bit (IMHO). 

Bandit carries his head more vertical than most - just the way he is. The Reinsman Tom Thumb actually balances well in his mouth:










As a rule, I prefer Billy Allens, but I've used Tom Thumb bits on Mia and Bandit and neither had ANY problem with them. I suspect the two biggest problem with Tom Thumbs are A) Many are cheaply made and pinch, and B) people are using them to control a horse with constant contact. They create a problem by never giving the horse a release, and then make it worse by using leverage while never giving release.

But I could put a Tom Thumb in Bandit's mouth tomorrow and he'd do fine in it.

BTW - I think Rashid uses examples from martial arts to help people understand, just as I might discuss something I watched in dogs or kids. I've been know to use examples from flying and electronic warfare to discuss something with horses. Sometimes that helps a person see something that they are too locked in to with horses to appreciate.​


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

For one, among others, here is Julie Goodnight's take on the Tom Thumb. She doesn't seem to be in any disagreement with Mark Rashid unless I'm misreading something. There are even some out there that express the opinion that the Tom Thumb should be made illegal.

Quote:" Tom Thumbs are VERY harsh and a commonly misunderstood bit (this bit is sometimes called a western snaffle or shanked snaffle). People tend to think they are mild because they think it is a snaffle, because the mouthpiece is jointed. In fact, it is a leverage bit, not a snaffle at all, and when you pull back on both reins at the same time, the joint pushes into the roof of the horse's mouth, causing a gaping mouth, and the sides of the bit squeeze the jaw in what is referred to as the "nutcracker" effect. Almost all horses with this bit will open their mouth and try to evade the pressure and pain. - See more at: USING A TOM THUMB BIT


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

And this......What Is a Tom Thumb Bit?..


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> And this......What Is a Tom Thumb Bit?..



Julie Goodnight aside, I do know what a TRUE TT is, as explained below

A Bit About Bits: Tom Thumbs and Argentine Snaffles


Now, for just any jointed mouth curb, with angled back shanks, used as a good transitional bit

Unfortunately, Dana Hokana calls that transition curb bit with a jointed mouth piece a TT, but note her comment



2108.aspxhttp://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/snaffle-curb-bit-


When she believes her horses are ready to move on in their training, she allows them a transition period before going into a curb bit. "When I graduate from the snaffle, I use an intermediate bit called a Tom Thumb snaffle. This bit is a broken-mouthpiece snaffle with shanks and a curb strap or chain." Hokana believes that the Tom Thumb is a mild, nonintimidating bit that can acquaint the young horse to the different feel and leverage of a curb bit.

With a curb, "the horse will feel a tightening on their jaw from the chin strap. And depending on how high the port is on the curb, the horse might feel pressure in their mouth or on the roof of their mouth." All of this is new to the horse, and Hokana proceeds slowly, repeating her basic exercises. When graduation day comes andshe deems the horse prepared for a true curb bit, she often starts with a grazer-style curb bit, one that's lightweight and mild with a low port.

When she rides the horse in the curb, she's very careful not to scare the horse by picking up the reins too quickly, as she asks him to give or yield to her hand. As riders, "we need to remember to use our hands accordingly," Hokana cautions, reminding that, "the Tom Thumb will be more severe than the snaffle bit, and the curb bit will be move severe than the Tom Thumb." She feels that being kind and patient will pay off in the long run. "I've seen horses that never, ever were confident or good bridle horses, and I feel like it was probably from how they were started in the bridle. Possibly they were scared early on."

One of the exercises Hokana works on as her horses adapt to the curb is her "pick up," which is how she picks up the reins, making light contact with the horse's mouth. "This builds the foundation for how well the horse will take the bridle. When I pick up on the reins and connect with the horse's jaw and mouth, I want the horse to 'give' right away by flexing at the poll and dropping his head." This is practiced at all gaits and at a standstill. "I will ride one-handed, just like I would in the show-ring, and I'll pick up my reins with my elbow down and my forearm up, until I connect with my horse's mouth." If at first the horse doesn't yield to the light pressure, Hokana moves on to step two, which could be to push the horse forward with some leg pressure and bump a little harder on the reins. But she always remains soft and patient, and teaches the horse that every time he feels her hand he is to give in response, and she immediately rewards him by softening the reins.

Hokana acknowledges that graduating to a curb bit takes time. "I might regress a little my first few rides in a bridle, but that's why it's important to ride a horse a lot in a bridle and not just plop it on them and show them when they're not accustomed to it."

She often finds that young horses have to be helped some as they transfer movements they learned in a snaffle to a curb bit. For example, a horse may not neck rein quite as readily in a curb as he did while in the snaffle. If this occurs, Hokana helps reinforce the neck-rein cue by sliding her free hand down the asking rein, close to the withers, increasing her leverage position and adding a touch of a direct rein. But she immediately returns to holding the reins in one hand as soon as the horse responds. Since it may take up to six months for a young horse to comfortably accept and trust the curb bridle, Hokana urges riders to go slowly and be patient.

Warning signs of a horse that has been moved too quickly into the curb include one that gapes or opens his mouth, or overbridles, dropping behind the bit. Such habits can indicate that the horse is nervous about working in the curb or fears pain from his mouth being handled too roughly. "There are horses that have 'busy mouths.' Their mouths may be shaped differently, they might have a little problem we don't know about, and it may have nothing to do with training. But most of the time," Hokana says, "it's a nervous symptom of an irritated or uncomfortable horse." Worse yet, a horse with a fidgety mouth or one that is over-bridled might be mentally preparing for a sudden painful jerk on the reins from an insensitive or frustrated rider.

Even after a horse is well-broke to a curb bridle, Hokana often returns to schooling in a snaffle. This keeps the horse from becoming dull to the curb, and rather than then moving on to an even tougher bit or one with a higher port, she can attack any problem areas in the snaffle, going back to basics in a mild bit so that the horse remains sensitive and responsive when returned to the curb. This philosophy of patience and an adherence to the basics help make Dana Hokana an excellent schoolmaster to her young equine students.

Further Reading
You have to know how to use bits correctly, versus knocking bits you don't understand as to how to use them correctly, nor what various design features provide


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> For one, among others, here is Julie Goodnight's take on the Tom Thumb....


She is wrong too. "_the sides of the bit squeeze the jaw in what is referred to as the "nutcracker_" effect"

That can happen with any single joint snaffle. They don't normally every poke the mouth - it can happen but rarely does - but they certainly can fold in a way that catches the cheek between the bit and the molars:








​ 
"_Almost all horses with this bit will open their mouth and try to evade the pressure and pain_"

False. None of mine do, and I've tried it in 4 horses. Unless the RIDER abuses the horse, which can be done with ANY bit, it just doesn't happen. And all anyone needs to do to discover the truth is buy one, stand next to the horse and watch how the bit moves, and use it the same as a good rider uses ANY bit - teaching the horse how to respond, showing the horse how to get release, and then riding with gentle hands.

These are all snaffles. Look at what happens if the rider mis-uses a "gentle" french link snaffle:








​ 
In addition, if the bit is the right width, it cannot "fold" very much. People fold it holding it, but the width of the horse's head should prevent much folding from happening - unless the bit is too wide. Nor would you do any real damage even so UNLESS you are pulling extremely hard. 

I can understand how someone might injure a horse stopping them in a bolt. A "pulley rein" is a great technique to know. It may have saved the life of both Mia and I one day when she had bolted and we were running out of trail. It is a harsh way of stopping a horse, but worth knowing for emergencies. It was NEVER meant to be the way a person normally stops a horse, and neither is hauling back on both reins with all your strength.

With a single joint bit, you can squeeze the cheek and injure it. With a double joint bit, you can crush the tongue. With either, you can ride well.

Same with a Tom Thumb.

But what Mark Rashid and Julie Goodnight say happens does not.

"_If there is one inch above the mouthpiece and two inches of shank below the mouthpiece, the bit has a one to two ratio; one pound of pull creates two pounds of pressure on the horse's mouth. In a leverage bit, the horse feels pressure on the poll, cheeks, chin, mouth and palate._"

Julie is wrong here, too. A curb bit is a class 2 lever, not a class one lever. If someone wants to know where the fulcrum of a lever is located, it is simple - it is the part that stays stationary. That part, using a curb bit, is the top of the side (once the curb strap tightens). Thus it is a class 2 lever. The ratio she has thus creates 3 lbs of pressure, not 2.

And curb bits either create no poll pressure or very little. I've felt it, using my fingertips, using multiple styles of headstalls and curb bits. Either I've felt nothing, or something very slight. Almost every book ASSUMES it creates poll pressure, which in turn indicates almost everyone who writes about them does so without understanding.

FWIW, here is what was found about poking the roof of the mouth:

"_When tension was applied to the reins, the mouthpiece pressed more deeply into the tongue, thereby causing the joint to move away from the palate. Single-jointed bits are usually described as having a nutcracker-like action, the implication being that when tension is applied to the reins, the angle between the arms of the mouthpiece closes and the joint is pushed toward the palate. In our study, any nutcracker effect that tended to push the joint toward the palate was more than offset by indentation of the tongue_." 

- Bitting: The Inside Story by Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PHD, MRCVS 

http://horseproblems.com.au/Bits/USDF_Dec05.pdf

Sorry for the rant, but it is discouraging to see people I like and respect - both Mark Rashid and Julie Goodnight - screw up something so simple to test. They ought to know better.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Hokana acknowledges that graduating to a curb bit takes time."

Transitioning Mia to a curb was probably the easiest thing I taught her. However, it is VERY important to TEACH the horse how to respond to a curb. I started by standing next to her, applying slight pressure with two fingers on the reins, and waiting for the correct response. When I got it, I dropped the reins. Repeat. Again and again, until she was 100% at giving me the right response immediately - using two fingers.

Then I mounted. We then started all the basics, turn left/right, opening rein, slow, stop - all at a walk. We did nothing but walk the first ride. She didn't neck rein at the time. She learned to neck rein later, in a curb.

The next day we did trotting as well. The third day we did cantering as well. The fourth day, we left the arena and went out on the trail, and Mia never looked back.

That wasn't done with a Tom Thumb. I think a Billy Allen is a better design for most horses. But I suspect one of the biggest problems with a Tom Thumb bit is so many people buy a cheap one, ASSUME their horse was born understanding curb bits, never give release - and THEN wonder why their horse acts up.

THIS: "_This philosophy of patience and an adherence to the basics help make Dana Hokana an excellent schoolmaster to her young equine students_." Darn near defines the 'kinder way'...


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

My main point in posting disagreement about the use of a Tom Thumb is to show there are other respected figures that strongly oppose the use of a TT and for that reason suggest that the article by Mark Rashid on the Tom Thumb is certainly no reason to trash him or call him an idiot anymore than it would be Judy Goodnight or others.

Since the thread topic is about a kinder way, could a crossover bridle be considered a kinder way? Or no?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No, TT bits are overall, very poorly designed and they give horrible conflicting signals. They are also extremely harsh when used even a little bit improperly.

And, no, I don't have to go link someone else's words on the matter. I've seen the effect myself. I've tried to ride in TT bits just so I COULD have the experience and know what I was talking about. Yes, they collapse on the mouth, yes they can nutcracker the jaw if your curb strap is snug. If it's not snug, the entire bit will pivot in the mouth and can smash the tongue. The straight shanks give zero pre-signal so even well trained horses have no warning before the full pressure of the signal slams into their mouth. And heaven forbid you try to use one to actually train a horse. Most good trainers ride green horses in snaffles and give them a good leading indirect rein to show them what they are being asked to do. That means that they don't pull the left rein straight back to ask for the left turn, they hold the rein slightly out to the left, away from the neck, because that also helps the horse learn how to bend and follow his nose. Direct reining in a TT DOES cause the inside shank to tip and begin poking the horse in the cheek, at the same time that the outside shank is being pulled into the side of the face. Essentially, it squeezes the horse's face and pressure on both sides is telling him to turn both directions at once. Even a horse that bends nicely both ways will often become resistant after just a few rides in a TT.

These are effects I noted on already well trained horses by a rider with well educated hands. The TT bit, in every instance, made the horses stiffer and more sluggish and unhappy. The feel from it in my hand (what little feel there was) was terrible because there was zero subtlety. It was either all or nothing, 0 or 10, no pressure or full pressure. The horses and myself were shocked each time I tried to use it because there was no presignal from the reins. 

The effect on a green horse, or in uneducated hands is exponentially worse. I would love to be proven wrong by even a single video of what I would consider a decently trained horse that was trained in a TT bit. Just one.



Now, back to the original topic of the post. Excluding such poorly designed options like the TT, most average bits are like most average spurs and most average whips, when used in the manner they are supposed to be use, there is not much that you will find that is kinder to a young horse just learning. Used PROPERLY, bits and spurs and whips are there only to make your cues more clear to the horse, to give a concise, simple cue that will be the same every time because that is, in the end, easier for the horse to learn from and less confusing/stressful. They don't have to try to figure out what you are asking because, once they have been taught the most basic thing (move away from pressure), it is easy for them to remember and respond to.

@*Hondo* , regarding your question of crossover bridles (I'm assuming you mean something like a Dr Cooks), I honestly don't even like those on broke horses. There is no adequate release with those simply due to their design and there is pressure on nearly every part of the horse's face/head, which can be utterly overwhelming to green or sensitive horses. With no snappy release, you cannot hope to attain a snappy response. For a horse to become truly soft and responsive, the equipment you use *must *have an immediate release when you drop pressure. That's why snaffles are so popular for training. The cues they give couldn't be simpler and when you drop your reins, the release is instantaneous. If a person or horse, for whatever reason, decides that bitless is a better choice for them, something like a sidepull is equal to a snaffle in simplicity and release. For a more educated hand, a bosal is also a good option for training because it is simple, but at the same time, is more subtle than a sidepull.


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## ThreeWishGamble (Dec 9, 2016)

well interesting.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree on the crossover bridles, but the lumping of all jointed mouth curbs, into Tom Thumbs, remains, incorrect, as is the statement that they cause conflicting signals, and it is also understood they are curbs, same as those with a port, and thus not used to start horses with-ever
Thus, on a horse, that has the education, in a snaffle, or a bosal, they are a better in between choice,then going to a curb with a port, directly, esp those jointed mouth curbs that have a Billy Allen type joint, and I refuse to call all jointed mouth curb bits TT, unless they truly are TT, even though it is convenient, same as that term 'shanked snaffle, used in the same incorrect terminology , for simplicity

I have used the Reinsman transition bit for many years, on young horses moving up from the snaffle to a curb, with great results

Loose Jaw Colt 7/16? Smooth Sweet Iron Snaffle | Reinsman
Some horses, eventually prefer a curb with a port, and others, a version of that jointed mouth, with longer, loose jawed, sweap back shanks
No confusion, no head shaking, as my hroses are going pretty well buy then, off of the indirect rein,s eat and legs, and that jointed mouth curb, which need not be , or should be, a true TT, is clearer to ahrose, at that stage of the learning curve, when you need to pick up that second rein, and help him some, then a curb with a port


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

smrobs said:


> ...I've seen the effect myself. I've tried to ride in TT bits just so I COULD have the experience and know what I was talking about. Yes, they collapse on the mouth, yes they can nutcracker the jaw if your curb strap is snug. If it's not snug, the entire bit will pivot in the mouth and can smash the tongue. The straight shanks give zero pre-signal so even well trained horses have no warning before the full pressure of the signal slams into their mouth....Direct reining in a TT DOES cause the inside shank to tip and begin poking the horse in the cheek, at the same time that the outside shank is being pulled into the side of the face...


Odd. I cannot duplicate what you say. And I've tried. It is physically impossible for the top of the shank to be tipped into the face of the horse because the shank does not swivel at the mouth. Pull on the bottom sideways and the whole shank has to move sideways. It WILL tip in with a Jr Cowhorse bit. Pull sideways on the bottom of this, and the top will tilt in:










Do so with this one:










and it cannot tip in because the design does not allow any tilt. Instead, the entire bit slides to the side, moving the top (and bottom) away from the horse's face.

Straight shanks CAN give a signal if the horse holds its head relatively vertical - as Bandit does. They do not give signal if the horse normally holds its head at 45 degrees - as some do.

And not only is it possible for ANY single joint snaffle to nutcracker, it is more likely with a single joint snaffle than a Tom Thumb. A snaffle pulls straight back, setting up a nutcracker effect. A TT, like any curb, rotates. It can, in some cases, poke the roof of the mouth (as can a snaffle), but it is less likely to crush the horse's cheek than a single joint snaffle.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think, the problem arises, by people like Rashid, or perhaps even you,smrobs , respectfully, as I respect your experience and knowledge, is that you are trying to use the jointed mouth curb, call it a TT, if you wish, like a snaffle, and of course that is incorrect
I green horse is going to be confused, no matter what indirect bit you use, whether broken mouth, or port, and why you use a true snaffle or a bosal, to put those basics on ahorse
Thus, there is only a problem by people that lump any broken mouth piece bit as a snaffle and try to use it as a true snaffle. The term shanked snaffle, sure does not help that confusion/mis use
Absolutely, if you use that jointed mouth curb to start a horse, that horse is not going to have that clear signal he needs, for

m
from a direct action bit, as in a true snaffle

On the other hand, a broke horse that does not ride well in a jointed mouth curb is not truly ready to be ridden in any curb.
I have had horses that preferred to remain in a jointed mouth curb, and also some that enjoyed moving on to a curb with a port. This has nothing to do with poor bit design, but rather whether that individual horse prefers tongue , bar or palate pressure


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Well, with the experienced horse people saying the Tom Thumb is crap, and backyard riders saying they are wrong, WTF are us 'backyard' riders, non bit experts, to think?

I think I will go with the professionals. They have way more experience than I do, since I ride one horse, the Arab in a bosal (unless showing tradional dressage) and the Dales is still in a snaffle. 

I guess I better stick with what Rashid and others say. They have riddden way more horses than the backyard rider (me), and probably have tried way more bits than I have.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'd like to throw out a question that's been rolling around in the empty space in the back of my head.

First, I need to correct what I called a "crossover" bridle to "crossunder" bridle as in Cook's.

I think the question is on topic, sort of, as kinder ways is the thread topic.

It seems to be common knowledge, or at least often claimed, that a horse can feel a fly land on his rump in a 40 MPH windstorm.

So if the horse is THAT sensitive to what's going on around him and touching his body, why can't he feel a subtle change in the tension of the strap running down his face and under his chin?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> Well, with the experienced horse people saying the Tom Thumb is crap, and backyard riders saying they are wrong, WTF are us 'backyard' riders, non bit experts, to think?
> 
> I think I will go with the professionals....


Do as you wish. This backyard rider has found experienced pros often make claims that do not pan out - backs rounding up in an arch, the "20% Rule", curbs are cruel, horses MUST neck rein before teaching them a curb, etc. And if a backyard rider like myself can have multiple Craigslist horses going fine in a Tom Thumb...well, if a backyard rider can do it, what is the problem with the pros?

From today's ride with Bandit. I tried to pull the bit enough to make it tip into the side of his face. These were the worst I could achieve, pulling at a 90 degree angle while on the ground:


















​ 
This is Bandit chillin' before the ride. For Bandit, this balance is fine. 










If someone is using a Tom Thumb, and their horse is tossing its head, opening its mouth, confused - the problem isn't the bit. It may be how the human is using the bit, or it may be the human didn't teach the horse how to work in the bit - but what HAS been done, by definition, CAN be done. And if a backyard rider can do it...it isn't hard.

That is part of how one rides "a kinder way". It isn't the tools. It is the training, the understanding of the individual horse, letting the horse make choices and listening to the HORSE. I love books and have often been accused of reading too many, but you have to test EVERYTHING you read or hear. Including anything and everything I write.

I'm not trying to sell anyone a Tom Thumb bit. Heck, I'm glad folks frown on them. That is why I could buy a barely used, $80 Reinsman TT bit on eBay for $30 with shipping!

But kindness in riding isn't about tack. It is listening to the horse, observing the horse, and responding to the horse. Bit or bitless? Shoes or not? Let the horse tell you.

"So if the horse is THAT sensitive to what's going on around him and touching his body, why can't he feel a subtle change in the tension of the strap running down his face and under his chin?" - @*Hondo* 

He can, if he is not too excited, and if he understands what that subtle change in tension means. That is why I had a tough time pulling the bit sideways with Bandit. Bandit knew how to respond because I took the time to explain and teach him before I first used it - and the TT was used on either his first or second ride in a curb. Teach the horse when he is quiet and ready to listen. Then teach him in more demanding situations. If excitement and/or fear is not blasting in his brain, he'll respond.

I had problems with Mia in a cross-under bitless style. Why? Looking back, I never TAUGHT her what I wanted. I just expected her to understand. Then she got frustrated, and I blamed the cross-under bitless bridle. But the problem was me...​


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I never said curbs are cruel. It is on my list of things to try/do with the Arab, take him up into a curb and if I can find someone local who is GOOD, help me with the spade. 

I want to drive the Dales, but I gotta learn how to drive myself, which means finding a professional and not some one who as done it a time or two. 

See where my stick is floating?

As someone who hasn't experimented with bits, or if a new owner were to read this, I would still think it prudent to go with people who have ridden more than four or five horses.

Since I am a rather simple person, I keep the bit/bridle combo simple.....snaffle or bosal. If my horses won't respond to those, then shame on ME and take my horses away.

I know we don't agree on much of anything bsms, so take this with a strain of the proverbial salt, but you bridle looks loose and the bit riding on the teeth. But pictures are deceiving. Just a snap shot in a nano second of time. That is why I don't try to judge pics of people riding, their setup, a Spanish Riding school horse being trained. It is a snap in a nano second. 

Hell, if you saw some family photos of me taken in that nano second, well gawd knows what you would think my mental capabilities are ! LOLOLOLOL.....I look absolutely deranged. Other times I don't look so bad. Depends on when I am blinking my eyes in that nano second, or if I am blinking and laughing at some joke a brother just told.......


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm just glad that Hondo is so sensitive to neck reining that I can accidentally cross the reins under his chin and ride for an extended period without even noticing.

Loose rein almost always. Move my hand left, he goes left, as he turns my hand comes back to center as he approaches the direction I wish.

If a horse knows what you're asking and decides not to comply, it would seem to this admittedly backyard person that more training rather than different tack is what would be needed.

Hondo is bitless because he hates a bit. Have to force one in his mouth every single time. Afterwards it's like, ok, if I have to wear it I won't ruin the ride just because of it.

But with the crossunder he actually wiggles his nose into it helping me to get it on. He does the same with a halter. I'm sure I could ride with a halter and not even notice any difference but haven't given that a try yet.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Hondo said:


> So if the horse is THAT sensitive to what's going on around him and touching his body, why can't he feel a subtle change in the tension of the strap running down his face and under his chin?


He can. I have some opinions about these things, but they are just my observations. 

First, I believe the most important thing is how any bit or bitless feels to the horse. I've read article after article on the concept of different bits and how they work. Yet it is always the horse that tells me if it is harsh or gentle to him. Some that are supposed to be very gentle seem harsh to the horse. Some that are supposed to be severe feel gentle to the horse.

Bits also are only a tool, and the most important key is the hands behind the bit. A rider with good hands and an understanding of the bit's action can use most bits in a way that the horse will accept, at least short term. But that may not be the best bit for the horse, and a sensitive horse might hate the bit at the outset.

As @Smilie said, the biggest problem I've seen with a Tom Thumb is that it is often used by beginner riders with insecure seats, and they have no clue about how it works. They just get on and ride, and end up using it harshly. That can happen with almost any bit, but a snaffle will be more forgiving. 

I don't think the main issue with the crossunder is that it doesn't release quickly. The pressure releases the instant your hand stops pulling. It doesn't clamp down on the horse's face without any rein contact. It doesn't drop away in a big release, but the pressure is provided by the hand on the rein, so without contact it is no more pressure than wearing a bridle on the face.

However, I've ridden some horses that don't like the squeeze around the face in the first place. So it's not about how fast you release, but rather they don't accept that contact in the first place. If it doesn't make the horse too claustrophobic, the horse can learn what that squeeze signal means. But then many horses realize how gentle that pressure is, and may ignore it when excited. Others love it and respond well. I've ridden some OTTBs in them and they went very nicely. One of my Arabs can't take the squeeze without panic. The other one doesn't think there is enough of a signal to respond to.

Once I thought Tom Thumbs were evil, but I've since seen them used on horses that accept them fine. The horse has to be a little more balanced, and able to travel without contact. The bit has to fit, and the rider has to use it only for signals and with a clear release. The horse at my barn that goes well in one travels very round and balanced on his own, and mainly on a loose rein. The rider neck reins, and uses direct rein signals for fast turns with a good release. No head tossing and the horse is happy.

I wonder if the idea that they poke the side of the horse's face when direct reining is actually a perception of an issue I've seen with jointed mouthpieces and curb chains in general. When the bit breaks due to the rider pulling on one rein, the chain can pinch or jab the horse on the side of the pull. So instead of getting a nice cue to turn to the right, the horse instead is getting poked on the right, which makes him want to not move into that pressure. This can be eliminated by using a curb strap that does not have the chain start right at the bit cheekpiece. Such as the ones with leather, nylon or beta straps connecting them to the bit. 

Not all horses have this issue, but horses have a variety of head types that make the curb fall in different places on their chin or jaw.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

How about some video of your observations and experiments, bsms? Ditgital age and all that. That way I can see what you are trying to observe, since I have reading comprehension issues, or someone told me that on this forum once. I am better at being able to listen and observe at the same time, so videos would be helpful.

I am serious. I have never thought a novice cannot teach a pro something. We can all learn from many different sources.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Sarah, I agree. I can have to read something over and over to visualize it. A video would be great.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I am glad @Blue that I am not the only one!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Has anyone had any experiences with a horse that actually voluntarily opened it's mouth and helped in being bitted with the bridle? This is a serious question, in thinking how different horses can be.

I'm thinking about the way in which Hondo will even step forward a half step sometimes to help get the Cook's on.

@gottatrot has already classified Hondo as a "sensitive soul" in another thread, so maybe that's why he hates a bit. Any bit. At first I bought a snaffle that was thicker at the lip as I read "somewhere" that those were more gentle. And I got one with the copper roller thingie that they are supposed to like.

Part of the problem is that I tried to convince Hondo I would listen to him. And with that he will not stop telling me his opinion until I act on it. Which I finally did with the Cook's.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Hondo said:


> Has anyone had any experiences with a horse that actually voluntarily opened it's mouth and helped in being bitted with the bridle? This is a serious question, in thinking how different horses can be.


Mine does. She had a regular broken snaffle but didn't seem to like it and was somewhat hard to bridle (clamped her teeth, raised her head). I fiddled with her bit for a few months and settled on a Stubben copper lozenge 3-piece loose-ring snaffle. She reaches for her bit now. Might be related, might not.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

@Hondo depends on the size of the bar for my horse. He has a shallow pallet and a thicker tongue, so the smaller the bar the happier he is. The 'gentle' fat bars made him gape his mouth and he would gag or sucked on the **** thing. Strangest noise I ever heard. Oh he prefers the double over the single joint.

Maybe yours needs a smaller bar.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Avna said:


> Mine does. She had a regular broken snaffle but didn't seem to like it and was somewhat hard to bridle (clamped her teeth, raised her head). I fiddled with her bit for a few months and settled on a Stubben copper lozenge 3-piece loose-ring snaffle. She reaches for her bit now. Might be related, might not.


I googled that and it is similar to what I bought for Hondo. I just went outside and looked all over for it but couldn't find. The copper roller thingie was in the center with a ring on each side. So it was a 3 piece also.

I think it may be because he so much enjoys chowing down on the trail when he can and the bit gets in the way for that.

The one I had was really fat on the ends and was supposed to be gentler on the mouth than a thin one.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@sarahfromsc At this point I know Hondo well enough and he knows me well enough that if I even looked as if I had intentions of putting a bit in his mouth he would likely bare his teeth and pin his ears at me. (just as a communication device mind you) He would never intentionally harm me unless I got really really stupid.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Spurs aren't meant to be a weapon. You aren't supposed to "hiya!" karate kick your horse with them. The correct use is pressing. Rolling a spur if you need a little more. Least that is how I was taught. 

Honestly these tools are the least of your concerns when you send a horse to a trainer. 

Some of the crazy tying up that happens is far worse for the horse mentally, especially if it backfires.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

It took me forever to find a double joint 12mm bit. Most are 14mm or higher. To thick for the Arab. Well, it is hard to find halters, bridles, pads, blankets to fit his little compact self.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Hondo said:


> Has anyone had any experiences with a horse that actually voluntarily opened it's mouth and helped in being bitted with the bridle? This is a serious question, in thinking how different horses can be.


Hmm... actually grabbing for the bit? No. My mare would always stick her head right in bridle, and eventually became very soft to taking the bit (would open her lips and teeth easily with the slightest touch of my fingers). I think that she liked what the bridle and bit represented (going out and doing something) probably much more than the bit itself.

On second thought, I do remember my mare reaching for the bit on occasion when I went to put the bridle over her head. During the switch from bit to bitless, she sometimes became confused at the lack of a bit to reach for during bridling.

That said, both my mother's and my own horse like their bitless devices much more than the numerous bits I have tried on both of them. Mom's ex-ranch mare does great in a western style sidepull. I ride my mare in what is known as the 'dually halter'. She loves it. However I do also put a french link snaffle bridle on over the halter. Its my 'safety bit' of sorts. I have it on (with another set of reins, almost like a double bridle) in case of a bolt or some such thing, in which I am not positive that such a mild sidepull halter would keep my horse responsive and therefore me safe. A snaffle is plenty for that though.

Bits definitely have their place in the horse world, and as stated I do still use one. However, personally, just my thinking, I find the idea of a metal bar in my mouth being used with pressure and release unappealing.

As for tom thumbs, I don't think that they are the 'devil bit incarnate'. I've ridden plenty of horses that went fine in them, but then I was always able to find something else that they went even better in.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I had a hard time taking pictures. No idea how to try it with video. When Bandit feels any pull out to one side (opening rein), he gives his head that way. By the time my camera clicked, there was nothing to see - until he was turned a long ways, and I jerked a little. That was the only way I could get the shank to do anything abnormal.

Riding him, trying to watch at a walk, I'd move my right rein to the right. With trigger snaps on the end, it would just swivel on the end of the shank, and Bandit would move. He could feel the shift fine and responded - because he knew what I was asking. 

This is how I went about teaching him what I wanted him to do in a bit, including the TT...not with a tail hair, but with two fingers on the rein:






Same thing vertically. Pull both back lightly, wait...when he tucks his nose slightly (a stationary substitute for stopping), drop the reins. Before long, he (and Mia) figured out what I was asking when pulling back with both reins. Only when they were good both laterally and vertically did I mount up and try again from the saddle. Then at a walk, and nothing faster until they were good at a walk.

If he was feeling scared, or having a stubborn day, it would take more to get a response. I normally do flexing exercises with him about twice a year. Doesn't interest either of us, normally.

I did pull back pretty hard on both reins a number of times today. Not for stopping. It was 3PM, he had missed his noon meal, and I'd let him eat some dried grass (he lives on a dry lot). He really preferred eating more dried grass to riding anywhere, so I had to pull pretty hard - much harder than for stopping - to get his head up. But it never resulted in him tossing his head, opening his mouth, getting fussy. He'd finally raise his head, I'd release, and we'd move on. If it had been hurting him, he would have bucked. He's noticed I'm not a subtle fellow.

His bridle, BTW, is adjusted as low as I can without it hitting his teeth. He has a short lip and I don't like having wrinkles in my horse's mouth...but I can't always avoid it with him. Any time I swap bits, I have to open his lips and see where the bit sits. Otherwise I'll bang his teeth, and he DOES get very upset then - understandably.

If I could only buy one bit, I'd definitely buy a Billy Allen rather than a Tom Thumb. Bandit is kind of unusual - how he carries his head, the shape of his mouth, etc. Mia accepted TT bits, but the Billy Allen was a better match. Trooper and Cowboy are both of the "_Don't care what bit, just don't use it often_" school.

I guess my real problem with what Julie Goodnight and Mark Rashid wrote is that they make it sound impossible to have a happy, relaxed and responsive horse in a TT bit. And as professionals, and clinicians, they probably have seen a bazillion people who have slapped a TT bit in their horses mouth in order to 'show him who is boss' - and then end up with a badly behaved horse. They may figure - and may be right - that MANY people should not own or use a TT bit. I've stopped carrying a whip - not because whips are bad, but because I have a bad temper and bsms is better off not carrying a whip. I'm the problem, not the whip.

FWIW, the only bit I've had a horse absolutely refuse to take was a fat french link snaffle. By the third ride, Mia absolutely refused to open her mouth. Couldn't pry it open with my fingers. So I went and got a different bit and she opened her mouth no sweat.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> Well, with the experienced horse people saying the Tom Thumb is crap, and backyard riders saying they are wrong, WTF are us 'backyard' riders, non bit experts, to think?
> 
> I think I will go with the professionals. They have way more experience than I do, since I ride one horse, the Arab in a bosal (unless showing tradional dressage) and the Dales is still in a snaffle.
> 
> I guess I better stick with what Rashid and others say. They have riddden way more horses than the backyard rider (me), and probably have tried way more bits than I have.


Actually, there are many, many trainers that use a jointed mouth curb,as part of their training program, trainers that have successfully trained more horses then Rashid ever did, and with Rashid being more along the line of people who train people to train hroses, versus just training horses professionally
Those trainers that grew up, using the old California training (vaquero ), don't consider a jointed mouth curb, even a curb bit, considering any 'real curb, has to have a port, and have a certain disdain, for a bit they never learned to use correctly
I mean, the info is out there, if someone really wants to understand bits
Here is a video on transition bits


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Has anyone had any experiences with a horse that actually voluntarily opened it's mouth and helped in being bitted with the bridle? This is a serious question, in thinking how different horses can be.


Yes, three horses. But I think they all had different reasons for it. 

The first horse was kind of OCD, similar to my dog. Meaning, once the type knows the routine they feel more secure within the routine whether they like what they are doing or not. So they insist on following the "rule," in a very helpful way, but it doesn't mean they like the activity per se. It was sort of an anxious, "Put it in my mouth, I know this is what happens next. Get it over with." 

The second horse related the bit to going out, which she enjoyed. She would get antsy and nose her saddle and bridle, and then open her mouth for the bit so she could get her equipment on and get going. It also reminded me of a dog that would grab the leash and bring it so you could take him out for a fun walk.

The third horse was a calm, very optimistic horse that never had anything harm her, I don't think she was ever frightened in her young life, and was started very gently and gradually. She would open her mouth for the bit, and I think it was because she had not ever had pain from it and was happy to help. 

I knew another horse that didn't seem to dislike the current bit, but due to his past rough handling would make you pry his mouth open each time.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Actually, there are many, many trainers that use a jointed mouth curb,as part of their training program, trainers that have successfully trained more horses then Rashid ever did, and with Rashid being more along the line of people who train people to train hroses, versus just training horses professionally
> Those trainers that grew up, using the old California training (vaquero ), don't consider a jointed mouth curb, even a curb bit, considering any 'real curb, has to have a port, and have a certain disdain, for a bit they never learned to use correctly
> I mean, the info is out there, if someone really wants to understand bits
> Here is a video on transition bits
> ...


 Maybe that should see my next step with the Arab.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

s://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDnhyqCCOeI

Not completely in agreement with using a twisted wire, esp in the rtansitition bit, but it does tell you why you have loose jawed shanks, and that is a huge defining part, far as a TRUE TT, which has FIXED, STRAIGHT, UP AND DOWN SHANKS

graduating ayoung horsethrough bits









Here is Tom McCutcheon, a very well known and successful trainer, going through the same bits, and note, the transition bit he uses, is that jointed loose jawed snaffle(called by that oxymoron, shanked snaffle






Julie Goodnight, and Rashid are nowhere in his league, nor understand bits as many of these trainers, where that jointed mouth snaffle is standard in transitioning horse from a snaffle to a curb

Use what works, but don't trash something you don't understand , or base your opinions from people that never learned to used that transition bit correctly


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo

,Has anyone had any experiences with a horse that actually voluntarily opened it's mouth and helped in being bitted with the bridle? This is a serious question, in thinking how different horses can be.'

A most definite yes!All my horses, once they have been trained fora while, lower their head, and open their mouth to be bitted. They also lower their head, and I wait until they drop that bit, to finish taking the bridle off
It is the technique of the rider, who dos not either bang the teeth, nor forces the bit in and out, that has a horse taking up that bit, by himself, just hold that bit in place, and then dropping it on his won again, opening his mouth to do so


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I never ride in a true Tom Thumb, but I sure use many good jointed mouth curbs!
Can't discuss a bit correctly, when a True Tom Thumb is considered to being any curb with a jointed mouth piece. Heck,I think I prefer the other incorrect term-shanked snaffle!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Smilie said:


> I think, the problem arises, by people like Rashid, or perhaps even you,smrobs , respectfully, as I respect your experience and knowledge, is that you are trying to use the jointed mouth curb, call it a TT, if you wish, like a snaffle, and of course that is incorrect
> I green horse is going to be confused, no matter what indirect bit you use, whether broken mouth, or port, and why you use a true snaffle or a bosal, to put those basics on ahorse
> Thus, there is only a problem by people that lump any broken mouth piece bit as a snaffle and try to use it as a true snaffle. The term shanked snaffle, sure does not help that confusion/mis use
> Absolutely, if you use that jointed mouth curb to start a horse, that horse is not going to have that clear signal he needs, for
> ...


I understand what you are saying, Smilie, and you are correct. Ridden _correctly_, a horse will retain and/or progress in their training, regardless of what bit they are in. My entire experiment was based on the action of _uneducated _hands since that is where 99% of TT bits end up (and I don't lump them all in together :wink: I know a TT is different than an argentine and other well made/balanced broken mouth curbs). It was very difficult for me to use a TT as I would any other bit due to the lack of any sort of adequate feel from it. An educated hand can ride successfully in almost anything, but educated hands generally don't use true TT bits just because they are poorly balanced and poorly made. Same with using them to direct rein. That's incorrect because they are a curb bit, but I've seen way too many horses being "trained" from day one in them, even on this forum over the years and this thread was discussing a kinder way to train a horse, unless I missed the whole point.

BSMS, I don't know what to tell you. I've seen it happen and you say it can't. You can believe what you wish but I will remember what I saw.
@*Hondo* , I only have 2 horses at my house (out of about 15 that are trained) that don't readily open their mouths to be bridled. One is my Dad's horse who has a ingrained genetic distrust and dislike of all humans (he'll do almost anything you need, but only begrudgingly), the other is my shetland cross that just isn't comfortable in bits. I started him when he was 3 and he's always been that way. I found one then that he did decently in; he was responsive but never very happy about it. After I bought him back last fall, I set out to try to find something that he would be happy in since my bit collection has grown significantly in the last few years. I tried every bit I have on him and found that he would ride better in some and worse in others but never really seemed happy about any of them and was always difficult to bridle. Decided to try him in a hackamore (home-made bosal type, not a mechanical hack) and the difference was night and day. He was instantly more willing and his responses were snappier and he was just a happy pony.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

smrobs said:


> I only have 2 horses at my house (out of about 15 that are trained) that don't readily open their mouths to be bridled.


I was assuming @Hondo was asking about horses that open their mouths and reach for the bit all on their own rather than the usual which is the horse readily opens the mouth when the bridle is positioned over the face and the bit is brought up to the mouth. The first I have found to be pretty rare (only have seen three horses do it), and the other is hopefully every horse that has not had bad experiences.

Like @horseluvr2524, I've also seen horses that keep opening up their mouths for the bit when you put the headstall over the ears even though you are putting a hackamore on. It gets confusing for them when you go to bitless.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hondo said:


> I'd like to throw out a question that's been rolling around in the empty space in the back of my head.
> 
> First, I need to correct what I called a "crossover" bridle to "crossunder" bridle as in Cook's.
> 
> ...


I am not saying that subtle changes cannot be felt by a horse or a human. A fly landing on a horse can be felt, just as a greenfly landing on a human arm can be felt or a small spider. 

As with us using say a belt, a notch tighter than normal (I wish) will feel odd, in a few seconds it will become unnoticeable unless it is a lot to tight.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

smrobs said:


> ...BSMS, I don't know what to tell you. I've seen it happen and you say it can't. You can believe what you wish but I will remember what I saw...


There are a lot of variables involved. Mia took a strong dislike to a french link snaffle - probably too thick for her mouth. In any case, she would NOT open her mouth to it by the third ride. A horse who dislikes a TT and decides he WILL resist may give very different results from the 4 I've tried - none of whom cared one way or another.

I used a cheap TT with Mia then later threw it away - the bit snob in me. I've used a very nice quality Reinsman TT with the others. Could a cheap bit flex in ways a quality bit won't? Maybe. I haven't tried every Tom Thumb on every horse.

But what Hondo brought up is what I strongly object to:



Hondo said:


> For one, among others, here is Julie Goodnight's take on the Tom Thumb...There are even some out there that express the opinion that the Tom Thumb should be made illegal.
> 
> Quote:" Tom Thumbs are VERY harsh... Almost all horses with this bit will open their mouth and try to evade the pressure and pain...


The idea that "_Almost all horses with this bit will open their mouth and try to evade the pressure and pain_" - written by a respected trainer - is false. I'm 4 for 4 in horses who are content with one, and there is nothing in the design that justifies her statement. The idea that some want to ban it in a world that allows double twisted wire snaffles boggles my mind.

This bit would scare me far more than my TT:








​ 
Pull the bottom away from the face, and the top WILL push into the face. The mouthpiece can twist more and do more damage with pressure. If someone wants conflicting signals, consider this one - which I've seen recommended for "control":








​ 
This bit is functionally the same as my Tom Thumb:








​ 
FWIW, I've used a smooth Jr Cowhorse bit with Mia and she did fine in it. A horse may take a strong dislike to almost any bit, including a "mild" fat french link snaffle. But on the whole...its the training, how it is used and why it is used that makes the difference - if any. Horses will toss their heads and gape their mouths with a single joint O-ring if it is used poorly or if the horse doesn't understand it. Meanwhile, Bandit had no trouble with a TT on either his first or second ride in a curb bit.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As the oldmsaying goes, it isn't the severity of the bit, it is that hand that controls the reins.

I have had horses in some pretty strong bits for a variety of reasons. With some they were a help, others the horse would choose to run through them anyway. 

One mare that had been a failed Police Horse hatedmall forms of snaffles, ride her in a curb and she was happy as Larry. I have had a couple of bolters, not horses that were just strong and would go from A to B as fast as they could, but horses that would gallop off and gallop through anything in front of them. These I would ride with draw reins as I could literally haul their heads down and to the side. 

One heavyweight cob we had showing to a high level, was ridden in a very strong bit, he was as light as a fairy in it and we reserved it for the show ring. 

Horses for courses. If a horse goes well in a simple snaffle great. If it tries to tank off (in the hunting field) then I will bit up.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think, smrobs, you have touched on the true problem, and one I mentioned, and that is the importance of correct terminology

A jointed mouth curb is neither a shanked snaffle ( which would make it a non leverage/leverage bit ) nor are most jointed mouth curbs Tom Thumbs, yet those terms get used again and again, so that even someone defended a the correct use of a jointed mouth curb, refer to them as a TT!
In both incorrect terms, that bit is being defined by shape of mouth piece alone, with addition of shanks

A jointed mouth piece, makes that bit neither a snaffle or a TT
That bit is defined as a curb, by the addition of shanks, and as a TT< ONLY BY A specific design of those shanks

This incorrect terminology is the problem, in many cases, esp when entry level or mis informed people consider that bit same as a true snaffle, and use it thus to start colts, thinking they are using a snaffle, as recommended.
I have seen some of these people , showing up at entry type shows, riding in that 'shanked snaffle, thinking they are eligible to ride in jr horse classes that way
I have seen the same mis use, due to the unfortunate accpected term of hackamore being the same as bosal. Of course, horsemen know what they are talking about, but others often think that the mechanical hackamore is one and the same as hackamore


All the posting as what type of jointed mouth curb to use, how the bit functions, is redundant, JMO, if the basic understanding of what that bit truly is, where and how it should be used

1 That bit, with a broken mouth piece is a curb, soon as shanked are added. It is only atrue TT, if those shanks are fixed, straight up and down, relatively short

2/ As a curb, it should never be used to start a horse anymore than a curb with a port, or a mechanical hackamore, as one idiot did, with ahrose of my friend's, saying he was starting the horse in a'kind way, not bit, using a hackamore, which turned out to be a mechanical hackamore, with long shanks. Confused horse-you bet!

3/because most riding snaffles have a jointed mouth piece, going to a curb with a jointed mouth piece, is a great transition bit, as that horse is already familiar with that mouth piece, and is thus introduced to some curb action, using a familiar mouth piece, using short shanks, so there is minimal curb action


4/ A TRUE TOM THUMB< which i would never defend using, is bad, not because the mouth piece is jointed, but because the shanks themselves are fixed and straight up and down, relatively short
This design, which separates a TT from just any jointed mouth curb, also often referred to as shanked snaffle, allows  about zero signal, before that bit engages

Beyond that, the design of that mouth piece, smooth or twisted, shank length, angle of shanks, ratio of purchase to total shank length, diameter of mouth piece, is jut info that applies to ANY curb BIT, so is just muddying the water, as far as understanding truly when to use a jointed mouth curb and as to what it truly is
It is transition bit, from a true snaffle to a curb with a port, and also has eliminated the need for that double rein stage,producing a,bridle,or curb bit horse, not a spade bit horse, when ahorse goes from abosal or snaffle to a Spade directly, using that double rein stage as the transition


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> 4/ A TRUE TOM THUMB which i would never defend using, is bad, not because the mouth piece is jointed, but because the shanks themselves are fixed and straight up and down, relatively short
> This design, which separates a TT from just any jointed mouth curb, also often referred to as shanked snaffle, allows about zero signal, before that bit engages


But Smilie, how is it bad as my friend uses it? 
Having no pre signal is only bad if the horse has no clue what is coming and the "signal" is harsh. During neck reining, it does not matter if the shanks are straight up and down. 
The bit is not the only way to signal a horse that a cue is coming. As has been pointed out, even the reins or rein snaps can be used to pre signal a horse.

A reason my friend's horse does not mind the straight shanks is because when he does use the bit to direct rein, the horse already knows the cue is coming based on seat and leg cues that are saying, "turn tightly." Then he follows up with a light rein cue, the horse has had pre signal and the bit is being used in a good way the horse understands. 
If a horse's mouth is yanked on out of the blue, the horse will become apprehensive and may toss his head. But if the horse knows the rider is about to use the bit due to all the pre cues of seat and legs, it's not going to be an unfair surprise when the bit engages. A trained horse and good rider can use a TT properly without offending the horse.

There are better and easier bits to use, but if horse and rider are used to this and it works well for them, I see no reason to switch to a different type of curb. Likely the rider and horse would not see any difference.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I realize some people use TT without a problem, and should not really matter if the horse is broke. I would not use it, as a transition bit.
I just chose not to use it,period same as a mechanical hackamore, as I think there are better designs, although there are also great variations of designs in mecahnical hackamores, and some horses , esp those with mouth issues, do well in them, and they also work well for things like jumping, where that contact needed, is better outside of the mouth
I just can't think of one reason, why anyone would chose a true TT.
Horses also ride in cheap snaffles, that you can buy in any tack store, for around 10 bucks. I chose to use a well made snaffle, with sweet iron and copper inlay.
I could easily ride any of my horses in a true TT, as they also work totally off the indirect rein,no bit contact, by the time they are up in a curb, but makes little sense to buy a true TT, as I use my jointed mouth curbs a lot as transition bits, and not just once a horse is totally up in a curb
There are also times, even on finished western hrose, where it is nice to be able to pick up that second rein, if a horse needs a little help in some maneuver,being just ridden one handed, and a true TTis not the best bit to have in the mouth, in order to do so, JMO


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> But what Hondo brought up is what I strongly object to:


Backing up a ways, I did not bring anything up, although at this point I can see why you might be saying that.

My first modern author and still one of my favorites got me started on the right attitude toward horses, if I didn't have it already.

He was being castigated for an opinion article he wrote on the Tom Thumb bit. He was called an idiot in another thread.

In his defense I pointed out that other respected professionals expressed agreement with him.

For myself, I know nothing about bits really. I just wanted to point out that if Mark Rashid is an idiot for his opinion that there is a lot of other respected idiots out there.

And now I am seeing that there is major disagreements not only among the backyard dwellers but among the respected professionals also.

As coincidence would have it:

Today I drove to Wickenburg and stopped at D & D Western Wear, Tack and Feed Store to pick up some alfalfa and Cut'N Heal. They were out of CutNHeal and while I waited for them to check to make certain, a large wall of bits caught my eye, guided there no doubt by this discussion. I walked over and saw several bits similar to yours. Checking the price tag I saw they were all called Curb Snaffles.

Some might boycott D & D's over that but I just smiled and wagged my head.

When I rode in Pagosa Springs for a year around 40 years ago, I rode bareback with a halter. And down hills where the owner's horse in front of me was bumping his rump about every third step. What FUN! Two handfulls of mane and pushing back.

I don't even know to this day if the horses even had shoes. I doubt it.

.................................................................................................................................

Here's my take on bitless, bit, hackamore or whatever.

As @gottatrot mentioned or suggested, some horses like some things, other horses like other things. I was thinking about this and it came to mind that in the too many years spent in an office, I've noticed that some people like to chew on pencils or anything else that is around. Sort of like colt Dragon. Who knows, maybe he will someday demand a bit. And even resist having it removed.

About whether a horse voluntarily accepts a bit:

All the horses that are ridden here on the ranch lower their head to be bitted. But they do not do that in Willing Compliance. They have learned if they do not, their poll will be squeezed until they do. They lower there head in aversive compliance.

I was encouraged to do this with Hondo. I did not. And he did not lower his head for even the Cook's. I was criticized.

But ya know what? I don't know really when it happened, but sometimes he lowers his head so much I have to almost bend over. I've never asked him to. He just does plus wiggling that nose to help get it inside all those straps. He does that in full Willing Helpfulness. I cannot say how much that means to me.

Rattling on here.........

I think the steering device that a horse actually LIKES best is the one to use. Then take the time to teach the horse the finer points of that steering device. If he understands and doesn't comply, then that's another problem.

And I will add that MY bottom bottom line would be that the horse must comply to the bit cues willingly and not through aversion. The bit MUST NOT cause any aversive reactions in the horse.

Just because a horse complies with such and such bit, or bitless, does not necessarily mean it is willingly without any aversion. 

I would not claim that Hondo always voluntarily goes in the direction I prefer, but I do think he does so willingly. And that is very important to me.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is Charlie Cole, riding a jr horse in a western riding pattern, on a totally loose rein, while that hrose keeps cadence and topline, and executes precise flying changes, as that pattern demands, at exact spots. Again, the end product, and not the beginning, showing what can be achieved, but if you can get that from day one, on aloose rein, , never riidng that horse in the beginning, with contact, as needed, while driving with legs, then dropping that contact, giving the horse achance to stay correct without that bit contact, building on that, I sure would like to see it, or anyone else, including Rashid, doing so !


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, again, you are talking a finished hrose, versus training a horse from the beginning
Perhaps, it is because you have never trained a colt, form the snaffle stage, until He can be ridden, off of seat and legs alone, one handed, on a loose rein, and not just walk, trot and lope, that the point of a jointed loose jawed curb being a good transition bit, to REACH that end point, is lost on you!
You agree that Stacy Westfall can ride a tackless reining pattern, on her bridle horses, so not just on a loose rein but no reins at all
I once took in a clinic of hers, where she explained as to how she did that, using sliding stop as an example We are talking of stopping a horse from speed, totally without anything on it's head

She explained, that she taught her horses to stop on each of those cues alone (voice, seat and legs AND reins-thus the importance of signal, when doing the latter )
Thus, when she shows that horse 'traditionally', she has all three aids she can use together ( seat+legs, voice (whoa ) and bit (signal time, where the horse feels that slight uptake of the curb strap, and can react, before bit contact is ever made 
Thus, when she drops that bridle she still has two of her cues left
Signal time, certainly is important, when training ahrose to be very, very light in the brilde, to the point you can drop that bridle all together


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

RE: Mark Bolender Extreme Trail Bridleless Horse Timed event - Crazy Sexy Fun

Comment: Holy Cowmunga! Now that's something I could get interested in. Extreme offroad motorcycles have been brought into an artificially constructed course for spectators but I had no idea it has been done for horses.

Is there a circuit of competition, championships, etc?

I can only imagine the tons of hours spent on that horse. Truly amazing. Thanks for posting.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

*Hondo*, google EXCA. (Extreme Cowboy) It's a blast. And an awesome way to bond with your horse. There used to be something going on here in the Verde Valley, but it never really took off enough to make it. There might be something going on in Phoenix though.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Found two in Arizona. My bandwidth month only started 12/7 and I fear it's in deep trouble.

Extreme Cowboy Association EXCA

I probably got a little over excited with the link smilie posted as I was in the past fairly involved in a M/C sport of Enduros (even got in the top 10 nationally in my class a couple of years). The sport was not accessible to spectators as it all took place on remote trails. Then it was moved indoors similar to the video in a series called EnduroCross where national competitors could be watched by spectators.

Meanwhile, Hondo and I will just continue to amble around in the hills enjoying the views, (me) and the wild grasses, (Hondo).


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> BSMS, again, you are talking a finished hrose, versus training a horse from the beginning
> Perhaps, it is because you have never trained a colt, form the snaffle stage, until He can be ridden, off of seat and legs alone...Here is Charlie Cole, riding a jr horse in a western riding pattern, on a totally loose rein, while that hrose keeps cadence and topline...


What in the HECK are you talking about? You seem to be upset about something, but I'll be darned if I know what it is. What does ANYTHING I've written have to do with your videos or posts?

But FWIW, I've never wanted to ride a horse the way Mr Cole was doing. Zero interest. Not attacking him or his sport, but there is nothing in that video I'd want to imitate. But I also have no idea why you posted it or the others. What is your point?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

My point was, that There is a reason to have signal, in a bit, during training,esp, even if , I think we all agree , eventually the goal is to ride that hrose off of seat and legs alone, with just a touch of that indirect rein on his neck, versus any direct reining, and when you reach that point, should not matter much, as to what is on his head or in his mouth
Even when you ride completely off of seat and legs for the most time, for performance events,esp, where you need a great deal of finesse, again that bit signal is useful, esp working at speed.
For instance, a horse running to a sliding stop, is running uphill. Yes, you sit down, stop riding and the horse is cued for that stop, but also , just being able to lift that rein hand slightly, not engaging the bit, but providing that signal in that slight up take, is another factor that can help the horse
Sorry, for not being clear enough, but , of course, one provides signal with seat , legs, but that does not negate the positive of a bit having greater signal, as part of that entire package, and esp while training the horse
You can surely ride a trail horse in a true Tom Thumb, but I don't know of one performance rider, even in disciplines where a horse is shown on a loose rein, to suggest using that bit, or riding with one themselves, and I posted those videos, to show the degree those horses can be ridden without any bit support, so certainly the choice of using bits with signal, does not mean those trainers don't achieve riding off of seat and legs, beyond the average rider.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...but , of course, one provides signal with seat , legs, but that does not negate the positive of a bit having greater signal, as part of that entire package, and esp while training the horse
> 
> You can surely ride a trail horse in a true Tom Thumb, but I don't know of one performance rider, even in disciplines where a horse is shown on a loose rein, to suggest using that bit...


1 - "Signal" in a curb bit is a nice thing. It is a feature of curb bits that allows a curb bit to use less pressure (once taught) than any bitless bridle. I like it. But I wouldn't reject a bit for not having that feature, since no snaffle has it - by itself. But there are a lot of ways to provide a horse warning. Apart from seat and leg, the horse can feel and respond to small changes in where the rein is located, or how it feels in his mouth. When Mia was not too excited, you could ride her fine with your pinkie.

Some horses - those like Bandit or Trooper - get signal from a TT bit. Any horse who carries his head near the vertical can use a TT and get signal. If Bandit gets wound up and starts looking ahead, moving his head to a 45 degree angle, then the weight of the reins would rotate the straight shanks of a TT and remove the 'signal' phase - but an excited or nervous horse isn't likely to listen to the signal phase anyways. 

2 - I haven't even recommended a TT for trail riding, although I use it for that regularly. I don't care if anyone uses a TT for anything. And I have not, at any time, made any recommendations on how to ride in a show or competition. Not slamming anyone who does. Just not for me.

My point was that I was NOT being cruel or abusive when I use a TT bit with Bandit, and that Bandit doesn't mind it (nor Trooper, Cowboy or Mia). It is foolish for folks to recommend banning the TT bit while accepting bits like a Jr Cowhorse - which I've used without problems on Mia and Trooper, but which has more problems in design than a TT. 

And if someone suggests using a TT CAUSES a horse to throw its head, gape its mouth, etc - mine do not. In the least. Any given horse may take a strong dislike to any given bit, but there is nothing about a TT bit that irresistibly results in a confused, nervous, head-thrashing, gnashing horse!

I'm a tack geek. Bits fascinate me. In some cases, a bit will cause a bad reaction - too thick, too thin, wrong shape, etc. Bandit has an odd mouth and it is hard to keep some bits from banging his teeth. There is a reason there are a lot of types of bits. But the longer I ride and the more bits I try, the more I believe it is the hands, not the bit. Someone who wants to ride kindly needs to focus on hands and two-way communication WITH their horse, not bits.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, are you actually even using a true TT, or just a jointed mouth curb< which I happen to use a lot also. My entire disagreement was on a true Tom Thumb, and I have not seen you picture on of those
Certainly, that jointed mouth with a Billy Allen link, is not a true Tom Thumb
You can't go by hat terms tack catalogs use, or even professionals, who often use terms for convenience, but know that unspoken fact/knowledge
Same catalogs that call just any jointed mouth curb, a Tom Thumb, also refer to them as a shanked snaffle

I know that a hackamore, is synominous with a bosal, but because of that word hackamore, many people think it includes mechanical hackamores also, as evidence by many posts around that topic. 

Thus, a Tom Thumb in reality is :
a curb, with a jointed mouth piece, and being a curb, shanks are obviously there, BUT that alone does not a true TT make!
A true TT has FIXED shanks
Those fixed shanks are straight up and down, versus having any angle
Those shanks are also relatively short, which along with those shanks being both straight up and down , plus fixed, has three features that affect signal time in a negative way
Not saying it is not possible to ride a broke horse with such a bit, but why would you, as there is always a chance, even on a broke horse, where at times you need to take up contact
So, please show me a picture, of a bit you use, that you consider to being a TT, by design, not the 'user friendly simplistic term applied for convenience

Far as the hands, being the important point, you are preaching to the choir, as I have very often posted that going to any bit for control is wrong. Even though I ride my senior hroses in curbs, most of the time, I can, and do go back tot he snaffle very often.
HOwever, bits have positive and negative comments made,, on them, baSED ON assuming that the hands on those reins are a constant, or how else could you compare them, having more than one variable?
The very reason I posted those bridless riding videos, was to point out that , yes, they are possible through correct mental conditioned response to a bit, and not by that bit itself, BUT there are bits better then others, to help a horse reach that stage
I have alot of bits, as I buy them instead of shoes or clothes, like many other women.
If I had to, I could make do with one bit, just riding, and two if I still show that horse
I could trail ride any of my horses, in a smooth single jointed snaffle , sweet iron mouth, with copper inlay
If I was showing that hrose, and he was over 5,then I could easily ride that hrose in a loose jawed, medium sweap back shanks, jointed mouth

I might keep a third bit, as some horses do prefer a curb with a port, over a jointed mouth piece


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, I posted this link, as at the very top, is a picture of a true Tom Thumb

I would not call any bit you posted a true TT. That author has discovered, just like me, the pervasive broad application of the Term' Tom Thumb', applied to any curb with a jointed mouth
I am also not posting this thread, to agree with everything she says, esp when that TT is sude dincorrectly, but just the picture, and the factors that make it atrue TT



Drafts with Dots: The Tom Thumb Bit (what it is, and is not)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

this former thread, on the Tom Thumb, from this forum, has an excellent picture, posted by Beau, showing the features of a true Tom Thumb, and why it is a bad bit, and is compared to just a curb with a jointed mouth


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/why-western-tom-thumb-so-bad-381914/

So, that is about it, I hope, far as the Tom Thumb bit part of this discussion, unless anyone wants to defend the design of a TRUE tom Thumb


Riding with feel,legs and seat and all other factors, like loose rein, aside, the topic of this thread is a'kinder way', so why would you chose abit that is poorly made? I just objected to Rashid lumping all jointed mouth curbs under TT !


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> BSMS, are you actually even using a true TT, or just a jointed mouth curb< which I happen to use a lot also. My entire disagreement was on a true Tom Thumb, and I have not seen you picture on of those
> Certainly, that jointed mouth with a Billy Allen link, is not a true Tom Thumb


No kidding. Billy Allen bits are not TTs. This is a Reinsman Tom Thumb, which, like a great many, put a SMALL amount of bend in the shank:








​ 
Compare to this website's TT, which it argues should never be used by anyone for any reason:








​ 
A Bit About Bits: Tom Thumbs and Argentine Snaffles

Those are the same bit, except the Reinsman runs $80+ and is very good quality. That website tries to distinguish between "Tom Thumbs" and "Argentine Snaffles". In terms of balance and function, they are equivalent bits, except the Argentine snaffle can have the reins attached to the mouthpiece - the way I sometimes use my Billy Allens. 

I would never use a thin wire bit, but Larry Trocha - a guy I like - does, sometimes. I've met people who used chain bits. NOT for me - but they were getting good results with a contented horse. I've used a Waterford, which some people claim is cruel or harsh - but Mia didn't seem to mind it:








​ 
Some horses dislike a given bit, just as Mia absolutely refused to accept a thick-linked French link snaffle. I understand why some folks dislike ANY single joint bit, or reject single joint curb bits. I also know a double joint snaffle can be used brutally - and can be used that way by people who have NO idea what they are doing to the horse's tongue:








​
That is why "kindness" is best found in listening to the horse, learning an independent seat, how to follow the motion of the horse's head - and letting the horse tell you if a bit is harsh. It is, after all, his mouth...


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> It is a feature of curb bits that allows a curb bit to use less pressure (once taught) than any bitless bridle.



When you say pressure, are you referring to tension on the rein? Or are you talking pressure in terms of PSI force applied to the horse?

In terms of PSI applied to the horse, I do not believe there is any bit out there that applies less PSI to the horse than a crossunder no matter whose hands are holding the reins.

In terms of how hard the rein is actually pulled, I can certainly see that in trained hands with a trained horse the rein would not need to be pulled as hard as with a bitless for the same response. But more PSI would still be being applied with the bit and that would be to the mouth and not a long section running down the face and under the jaw.

That said, there is no need to put very much tension on the reins for Cook's. The horse can feel the tiniest change in tension, and that tension change is distributed over a very large area. On the order of maybe 20 times the area and an area that is less sensitive?

But if the Hondo hated a crossunder, I would not try to make him accept it.

For horses that will accept them, the crossunder is kinder.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

bsms said:


> It is a feature of curb bits that allows a curb bit to use less pressure (once taught) than any bitless bridle.


Sorry, this I have trouble believing. TRUE that less is more with a curb. That is because they provide far more leverage and apply far more pressure because of the shanks.

However, if we are speaking about a horse trained to a specific device, whether it be curb, snaffle, or bitless... The very action of being able to move one finger something like 2cm to move the horse should be universal. It doesn't matter the tool, but the training and what the horse is trained with.

I can stop my horse using my seat and a feather's light touch of pressure to a sidepull or even halter. If I work/train her long enough in any device and accustom her to it, I receive the same result.

Your statement is highly dependent on the individual horse. If a horse does not work well in a bitless bridle, of course the curb allows you to use far less pressure. However I have no doubt that with ANY bitless bridle and riding the horse that likes it, I could use the same amount of pressure or even less if I wanted to than I would need with a curb.

Now, if you were speaking of solely rein cues (meaning excluding all body cues including the weight of your hand without applying pressure to the bit/device), and you mean to say that the curb allows more signal/warning to the horse ahead of time, then yes I agree. However, the same thing can be achieved with a quiet hand that applies pressure gradually, no matter the device.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...In terms of PSI applied to the horse, I do not believe there is any bit out there that applies less PSI to the horse than a crossunder no matter whose hands are holding the reins...


I do. If the bit is balanced, then it will rotate very freely in the horse's mouth until the curb strap tightens. Slack reins will rotate it if the bit is NOT balanced - if, for example, you use a TT bit in a horse who holds their head at 45 degrees, the bit will rotate 45 degrees just from the weight of yacht rope reins. This is an old picture. When I saw it, I noticed the way the almost straight shanks had rotated - with slack in the reins. This is an example of an unbalanced curb bit that doesn't match how the horse carries herself:​







​ 
But the horse can easily FEEL the bit rotating in its mouth. In a bit like a Billy Allen curb, it can feel the left side rotating while the right does not, or both rotating at the same time. This can give a very clear, easy to understand "signal" that the rider wants to do X, and the horse can do X before the curb strap tightens. VERY light, but also VERY clear.

This picture may help:








​ 

The left rein has slid a little on her neck, and that slight sliding has rotated the left side of the BA curb 45 degrees. The right side is probably unchanged. Had we been riding, that 45 degrees (or 20, or 30) would tell Mia I'd like a turn to the left. Meanwhile, she is just holding the bit in her mouth. If you stand next to the horse and move the shanks of a curb bit, you can feel for yourself how little it takes to move them. Slack reins are literally enough, and I don't know how ANY rider can get lighter than slack.

If Mia didn't scare or get excited, we could go the entire ride without ever taking the slack out of the reins - yet she was getting clear guidance. Billy Allens are my favorite curb bit. I also use sidepulls - even did so with Mia. But I personally doubt a sidepull is gentler than a well ridden, well balanced curb bit. Others can disagree. As long as a horse acts relaxed and forward at the same time, I figure it is content.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

When you say one side rotates and the other does not I assume you are talking about a "broken" curb, curved TT, or whatever on calls it. Is there such a thing as a straight curb that rotates in the middle without being hinged? Similar to how the D-Ring rotates on the end of a snaffle. For having one side rotate seems that would be a better design.

I would still argue that if there are two wrinkles in the horses mouth there is more PSI just sitting there than there ever is with a Cooks unless the rein is really pulled on.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Billy Allens (my favorite) all rotate freely in the middle without a joint:








​ 
With Mia, I tried to adjust the bit so there were no wrinkles. Usually could, although it depended on where the holes were punched in the headstall.

With Bandit, I usually have a wrinkle. Short lip line and no wrinkles = bangs the teeth. The dentist had a name for it...don't remember it, but it is how some horses are built. He doesn't seem to mind. Don't think I've ever used 2 wrinkles.

The weight of the bit obviously applies some pressure. My horses seem pretty content with picking it up themselves and holding it in their mouth. It may become like a guy with a cigar, who holds the cigar in his mouth without thinking about it. My Dad sometimes had a cigar in his mouth, unlit, for hours. He seemed to forget it was there.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No wrinkles, ever!!!!!!
Soon as you have a wrinkle, you have pressure, even with complete rein release.
That is most likley why you find that Billy Allen mouth piece such a big deal-as it partly forgives that bit adjustment, causing wrinlkles, and where any added bit pressure, can cause that nut cracker effect, many people claim is caused by a single jointed snaffle, and why that double jointed snaffle is favored, English, as there always is some contact,and that adjustment that causes a wrinkle, with a cavasson added 
I have my horses learning to just pack a bit
I also completely am a believer, in the premise, that a hrose should be able to do any maneuver in a snaffle, before he is ever advanced to a curb, with that curb, being gone to for finesse, not control
There are many great bit makers, and who are also horsemen. One can learn from them, versus trying to re invent the wheel.
Not that I am a particular fan of Daniel Dauphin, but he has created some great detailed video info's on bits and how they function
No, a bit never compensates for correct training, but that correct training, combined with the right bit, creates awesome results, much of what is not needed, just trail riding
I rode for many years, even started hroses, before I ever took any clinics. Heck, I even started a colt, being very 'ignorant, using a 'cowboy snaffle, recommended to me, by a so called horse person
Of course, that cowboy snaffle, was in fact, a curb, with a broken mouth piece and long shanks. No one told me that I should use a curb strap,until some cowboy took mercy on me, months after I was already riding that colt. Yes, horses are very forgiving, and many horse will work in poorly fitted saddles, as well as poorly designed bits
However, the true horseman tries to learn along the way, versus having a closed mind, formed by riding one or two horses
BSMS, whether your diagrams are correct or not, concerning how a bit functions, I can't even be bothered to look at, as there are so many great bit makers and professionals that go into great deal of how different bits function, which give slight nuisances in top level discipline specific performance, but that does not change the premise that you train a horse in a plain snaffle or bosal, using seat legs, feel, drive with legs, release at the right time,so eventually that horse can be ridden off of seat and legs alone, with nay bit beyond that, used for finesse, and a bit the horse 'graduated to'

This is just a green three year old, loping on a loose rein, single jointed snaffle, even on her first few rides. Horse looks relaxed and happy to me



Candid picture of Charlie and me, as I did not know hubby had atrail camera set up near the gate, where my outside arena is


Smilie loos like ahappy horse to me!





Carmen


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## Judah (Oct 22, 2016)

Scratching my head how this became a discussion about bits when the OP asked for training methods the dont use them.


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## Judah (Oct 22, 2016)

OP if you're still reading perhaps you could tell us what type of riding you plan to do?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

jgnmoose said:


> I have a suspicion, that something like Endurance is where you'll find the bit-less/spur-less crowd. Just based on experience with people I've known who are into that event.


True, because you can't spur or whip a horse along for 50 miles. The horse either has the mental capacity and drive to do it or they don't. I've followed several blogs of people that were trying to make their non-typical endurance breed succeed in endurance but they eventually gave up. Some stock or heavier horses can do it, but many don't have the mental drive. It's not the distance that discourages them, it is the speed. A lot of these horses can be ridden all day through rough country just fine, but they won't trot out all day at a good pace, so can't finish within the time limit. 



> (Smilie) No wrinkles, ever!!!!!!
> Soon as you have a wrinkle, you have pressure, even with complete rein release


Something like this cannot be used as a universal principle. If your choice is either a wrinkle so therefore light pressure on the lips, versus the pressure of the bit hitting the horse's teeth, ask the horse. Most horses would choose the lip pressure over the teeth banging that probably feels like us hitting our tooth with a metal spoon. To me that is a lot less pleasant than pulling up one side of my lip with my finger, even if I keep that wrinkle in place. It doesn't actually hurt even if it could be classified as "pressure."


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> versus having a closed mind, formed by riding one or two horses


IMO & IME, the number of horses ridden have no relationship to the formation of a closed mind.

Point in case.................


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> No wrinkles, ever!!!!!!
> Soon as you have a wrinkle, you have pressure, even with complete rein release.
> That is most likley why you find that Billy Allen mouth piece such a big deal-as it partly forgives that bit adjustment, causing wrinlkles...
> 
> ...


For the most part, I once again have no idea what is bothering you.

I've got lots of bits and have tried many of them with Bandit. Because of his short lip line, I haven't found any jointed bits that won't bang his teeth at a "no wrinkle" setting. Like most horses, he strongly dislikes having his teeth hit by a bit. That may only be one horse, but it only takes one exception to disprove an absolute rule.

Pressure in the mouth is not a terrible torture to horses. Lots of horses are ridden, happily, with constant contact. Not my style, but not wrong or abusive. Slack reins are not a sign of moral superiority.

I rode Bandit yesterday in a single joint O-ring snaffle. He had a wrinkle. It was also our best ride to date. Not because I was using a bit with one joint, or two, or none. Not because I was using or not using a bit, and I ride him regularly both bitted and bitless. I'm pretty sure the OP has lost interest, but it isn't the bit or lack of a bit that makes for kind riding, but listening to and responding to the horse.

Horses are people. I've had humans get upset with me for saying that, and I'm not sure dictionaries would agree, but I think the root of riding with kindness is treating our horses as people. Not dumb animals, not as mute servants, but people. We ride people with 4 legs. It isn't about the tools we use, but how we approach riding and horses - riding WITH someone rather than ON something. And I'm not really sure it is possible to teach that to someone. I'm beginning to think that is either a person's approach to life, or not.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

bsms said:


> For the most part, I once again have no idea what is bothering you.
> 
> I've got lots of bits and have tried many of them with Bandit. Because of his short lip line, I haven't found any jointed bits that won't bang his teeth at a "no wrinkle" setting. Like most horses, he strongly dislikes having his teeth hit by a bit. That may only be one horse, but it only takes one exception to disprove an absolute rule.
> 
> ...


Very well said.


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## Judah (Oct 22, 2016)

Hondo, your statement is pretty irrelevant because they did ask for harsh cruel ways to train with out a bit. They asked for kind methods that don't use a bit, and all the bit users took it personal and came out to defend their tool of choice. I understand where you all are coming from but honestly 100 posts arguing about bits is so off course from what this person was asking for.

There are kind and cruel ways to use any tool in the horse world, the discussion isn't about kind ways to use bits whips and spurs. Its about how not use them and so far there has been very little contributed to -that- discussion.


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## Judah (Oct 22, 2016)

They didnt* 

Curse my typos*


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Judah said:


> Hondo, your statement is pretty irrelevant because they did ask for harsh cruel ways to train with out a bit. They asked for kind methods that don't use a bit, and all the bit users took it personal and came out to defend their tool of choice. I understand where you all are coming from but honestly 100 posts arguing about bits is so off course from what this person was asking for.
> 
> There are kind and cruel ways to use any tool in the horse world, the discussion isn't about kind ways to use bits whips and spurs. Its about how not use them and so far there has been very little contributed to -that- discussion.


Taking that conclusion from the original post, would first , condone the idea that the use of either spurs or a crop, immediately implies harsh training, and that is not true
The OP observed bits being used incorrectly, which does not mean when they are used correctly, they aren't a part of that 'kinder way'
Bittless devises can also be used incorrectly, and you need not strap on spurs to use legs incorrectly, kicking horses to get a response
It is not the tools,but the user of those tools, that will ultimately define that 'kinder way\


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Judah said:


> I understand why its good to explain that to the OP. Anything can be cruel if you use it cruelly.
> 
> What I still dont understand is how it turned into an intense discussion about bits and whether or not Tom Thumb bits are terrible when they asked for training methods, not tack reviews.



Threads have a way of going out on tangents-simple as that. Rashid was brought up, hense hi thread on the TT, thus point that all jointed curbs aren't true TT, and so on and so on
So, putting the 'train back on track', give your own summarized answer to the OP


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Good point, @*Judah* . the thread has divolved a bit.

usually, if a couple of members really get into an intense discussion of a tangential subject to the OP, they are best to consider starting a dedicated thread to that topic.


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## Judah (Oct 22, 2016)

@Smilie If the OP responds back and is still looking for suggestions then I'll be happy to share my input.
@tinyliny Ya it seems the polite thing to do if the topic brings up a whole seperate topic you'd like to discuss.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The problem, started right with the original post, which implies that if you do use spurs, it is synonymous with unkind training, and since that entire idea is flawed, the train came off the track, right at the beginning!
There is acorrect way to use artificial aids, and the right time to do so, and training programs that do use them, can indeed be \better ways.
I have posted many times, concerning the correct way to use spurs and when, so I am not going to be redundant-the info is out there.
Ditto to introduction to bits, legs seat, R-, based on pressure and release, in the right amount, and some R+ when indicated.
In the end, it comes down to balance, and learning where that balance is, while teaching your horse in a kind, clear manner, far as who is leading who
I will post this link again, on balance, as it has the answer pretty much in a nut schell
Far as trainers, that unfortunately is again something you learn through the inner 'grapevine', and by seeing the type of horse those trainers turn out, seeking a trainer that turns out consistently, happy horses, that remain sound both in mind and body, horses that can be ridden by youth and non pro, as well as by professionals, and are happy in their job
Afterall, the 'proof is in the pudding" !

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-training-balance-735818/


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

RemingtonDiva said:


> Hi what trainer's and types/techniques are there for training a horse without using whips or spurs please?


This is the original post. I seem to be missing the inference that spurs or whips are cruel. OP simply asked about other methods. Train leaving the track isn't the OP's fault


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Blue said:


> This is the original post. I seem to be missing the inference that spurs or whips are cruel. OP simply asked about other methods. Train leaving the track isn't the OP's fault


Well, each one of use can read something, and get a different meaning, afterall, the World religious denominations are based around that interpretation!

So, to summerrize

You train any horse first, without the use of spurs, teaching that horse to give to pressure, understanding leg aids, and might never need to add spurs, if you only recreationally ride, where no finesse, far as response to leg aids, is required, where that horse responds immediately to invisible leg cues
THus, whether you eventually add spurs, riding a horse that understands how to give to leg aids, depends on expectations
Any horse we have just trail ridden, has never been ridden with spurs, so if that is all you intend to do, then you can well skip ever putting on a pair of spurs, as we have certainly trail ridden some of our horses, that have never been ridden with spurs
HOwever, if you ride a performance horse, then you ride with spurs , on ahorse that understands leg aids, and where you have that unspoken agreement, using spurs correctly, as secondary cues to non compliance to leg aids, that you will only go to the spur, and only enough to get the desired response, IF the horse fails to respond to light leg aids alone
The horse then is perfectly okay, ridden with spurs, long as you have that independant seat to never touch that horse with a spur, unless you intend to, and that you always will give him a chance to respond to light leg alone
THus, a 'better way' to me, means knowing how to use spurs correctly, and not just excluding their use.
I don't ride with a crop, but those that jump and ride race hroses, can answer that part, concerning correct use
The OP asked for a trainer, that does not use either spurs or whips. 
Well, many trainers use a lunge whip for ground work, and, if you want performance horse, then I know not of one performance trainer that does not use spurs correctly, once the horse is at the point hwere he understands leg aids, and you then work on refinement to those leg aids

MY husband has never ridden with spurs. He just trail rides, on horses either my son or I started. You certainly should put basics on ahrose without spurs, and never need to ride with spurs, if you do not have those expectations for immediate response to light leg aids
Neither spurs nor whips are evil, but rather their wrong application


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I rhink, those of us here , that ride with spurs, on a performance hrose, have bent over backwards,enough to explain as to how spurs are used correctly.
They are not gone to first, jabbing a hrose, never giving that horse a chance to respond to light leg alone
All that does, is either create a horse that does not trust your legs, or one that just 'grins and bares it, tuning you out, having no reason to respond to light leg alone
I think, the OP can only ask the question she did, by not understanding as to how to use spurs correctly in the first place
Many very good trainers , ride with spurs, on horses that have first been taught how to respond to leg aids, and in fact, I can't think of one upper end trainer, that does not ride with spurs. They are there, just like brakes, in case you need them
In fact, I really see of no way to develop a horse that responds to invisible leg aids, without eventually riding that horse with spurs, staying true to that un spoken agreement with the horse
Using spurs to inflict pain, is not training, but abuse. However, I will use a spur enough to cause discomfort, on a horse that decides bucking under saddle is okay (any pain ruled out ), or a stud, that is getting distracted by mares, while being ridden, taking his head away, at the same time


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Smilie said:


> The problem, started right with the original post, which implies that if you do use spurs, it is synonymous with unkind training, and since that entire idea is flawed, the train came off the track, right at the beginning!


Two posts in a row that I'm quoting and liking!

If a person wants to be less cruel to their horse, they could work on their balance, sit up straight, lose some weight, not balance on the reins, have quiet feet, and not smack his kidneys with their butt in a trot. 

It is all relative.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

UNBELIEVABLE! 129 posts and NOBODY answered the OP's question. Burn the whip, throw the spurs in the trash, and make a toilet paper holder out of the bit. Then train your horse.
Control the feet-control the horse. Everything goes from there.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

elkdog said:


> UNBELIEVABLE! 129 posts and NOBODY answered the OP's question. Burn the whip, throw the spurs in the trash, and make a toilet paper holder out of the bit. Then train your horse.
> Control the feet-control the horse. Everything goes from there.


 
My horses cross rivers, load in trailers, all without needing to have another horse bite them
Perhaps, you should take some lessons in training a horse.
When you see that link on 'balance, click on it, and if you really , really read, the answer to the Op most surely is there!

I,ll make it easier, and copy part of that post on balance,as it applies to training hroses:

Most times, when the topic of balance comes up, in regards to horse training, it is physical terms that are the subject. Distribution of the rider's weight, the horse balanced between the front and hind end, balance between reins and legs. combined with timing and feel

There is another balance, just as important, and can be more challenging, also requiring timing and feel. That balance includes , balance between softness and boundaries, between kindness and rules, between discipline and fun, and between consequences and reward

The author acknowledges two main types of imbalances,when it comes to people.There are those that are all about rules, boundaries, discipline and consequences, and those who are all softness, kindness, fun and reward.

Somewhere between these tow ends of the spectrum is a perfect balance that results in an emotionally balanced confident horses and humans who communicate clearly with compassionate understanding of who is in charge


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Smilie said:


> My horses cross rivers, load in trailers, all without needing to have another horse bite them
> Perhaps, you should take some lessons in training a horse.
> When you see that link on 'balance, click on it, and if you really , really read, the answer to the Op most surely is there!
> 
> ...


I have a mare you really need to meet!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

elkdog said:


> Control the feet-control the horse. Everything goes from there


Well, some try to tie up the feet and they still don't have a horse in control. It's the horse's mind that controls the horse, and they always are in full control of that, not us.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have a mare you really need to meet!

^^^^
would that be the mare you taught to sic other hroses, while riding?
That mare's teeth would not make contact with either my flesh, or that on any of my horses, while I was riding them, so make that introduction!
You realize that what you have taught that mare, is exactly what makes her a horse that many would not wish to own, as they would need to first correct that wrong behavior that you taught her


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jgnmoose said:


> Spurs aren't meant to be a weapon.


"But his hardy mountain pony, he could scarcely raise a trot.
He was blood from hip to shoulder from the spur."

....One bit from The Man From Snowy River that always had me wincing & thinking praps he wasn't such a great horseman...


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

RemingtonDiva said:


> I really only use a whip if i feel she is not quick enough to respond to something when she knows full well what i am asking. I.e side pass but she is dragging her rear, or transitions up.


And if she would accept it, I would offer some suggestions about the above quote. I do believe the OP obviously has a kind attitude toward her horse on one hand as she is looking for a kinder way, but on the other hand I see a way of considering the horse that many people unknowingly have and might consider changing if they were aware of it.

That the only thing meaningful in the horse's life is responding quickly and correctly to our every wish. I'm exaggerating but still, there is something expressed in the expectations within the quote that bothers me.

And I am believing the OP may be headed in a direction that it will eventually bother her.


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## Joost (Dec 1, 2016)

If you don't want to use using whips and spurs, your training will be not to use them.
It is not a big thing, i never use them. Not out of principle I just hate to hold on and put on al the stuff.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

As said, one can certainly not use either whips or spurs to train a horse, esp if you just recreationally ride, but it is not their use that is the problem, but their wrong use, same as anything else, including the feeding of treats
BALANCE!!!!

I have explained over and over again, as to why, when and how spurs are used correctly, and LOosie's qoute has zero to do with correct use of spurs on a trained hrose, as secondary aid to ignored light leg aids, as is just as incorrect, if not more so, giving the example of a woman that had her boob bitten off, by her horse, not because he was aggressive, but because he knew she carried treats there, in an effort to negate the entire concept of using treats correctly, clicker training

Nether do anything positive, except cause those that us either one correctly, to become upset and the go into lengthy educational explanations of correct use

When I do use spurs, it is on ahorse that has first been taught leg aids, and only as secondary cue to ignored light leg aid
I never bother putting on spurs, trial riding, and in fact, don't even trail ride in regualar riding boots
My horses , when I do ride with spurs, are not afraid of my legs, but just know I ride with spurs, thus respond to very light leg aids alone, a response that is needed, riding a tight pattern. I have never left spur marks on any horse, but I'm pretty sure, even when I am not wearing spurs, my horses are more likey to immediately pick up a lope, from a stand still, for an example, by just a touch of my leg, then a horse never ridden with spurs
If you don;t need finesse to leg aids, you can do very well by never advancing to riding that horse with spurs
Again, it is improper use that is the problem, not the tools
I prefer to have a lunge whip, when lunging, even if I never touch the hrose with it
Guess that puts me in the class of those that trains with whips and spurs, even though I don't ride with any whip or bat. I also both recreation-ally ride, and performance ride, so unless you do both, I'm interested in how well a horse shows, if he never has his leg response made very light, by the correct use of spurs
You don't thump a horse harder and harder, with your legs, in a show scene, if he does not respond to light leg alone


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...LOosie's qoute has zero to do with correct use of spurs on a trained hrose, as secondary aid to ignored light leg aids, as is just as incorrect...


Loosie's quote from a poem written in 1890 reflects how most riders used spurs through the mid-1900s. I love what Gen Chamberlin wrote in his book and in the Cavalry manual about balance. I like some of what he wrote about use of reins. However, I would not let him get on my horse while wearing spurs. The quote he learned training at Saumur was "*The horse should think God is on his back and the Devil is at his belly*".

If your goal is total obedience, that works. It also has nothing to do with how I want to ride. But then, many competitions are held for the human, not the horse. I suspect more than one obedient, compliant horse in competition learned obedience with the Devil at his belly, just as a number of horses learn slack reins by being ridden with punishing reins.

A kinder way has to include how the horse is taught. This sometimes applies to riding competitions:

"*Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made.*" 
- popularly attributed to Otto von Bismarck​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS,I believe we have gone round and round about using training, not force, and I can assure you, that not one of my horses is upset, if I do get on with spurs, any more then if I put abit in their mouth, and you don't get there by abusive techniques, not having the horse trust either your hands or your legs, no matter what you have on the end of them
I also never allow anyone to wear spurs, riding any of my horses, unless I am absolutely sure they are qualified to do so, and that goes for some bits I use, and will put a simple snaffle or a bosal on ahrose, when someone wants to come out for a ride, with that person being either a non rider, or someone I am not sure of
My kids never got to wear spurs, for the first 5 years or so, when they first started to ride, and not even then, if like my younger son, they just trail rode
The only time a horse of mine (Charlie), got a spur mark, was from another rider's spur, when her horse ran backwards, and into Charlie's flank
Charlie never worried about my legs after that incident, whether I wore spurs or not, but she sure as heck worried about other horses coming up on her,, or any horse backing, anywhere near her !
And, no, you don't get a horse that carries himself quietly, on a loose rein, with a closed and relaxed mouth, by having jerked on his mouth, you get that by a horse that trusts your hands, and who is light and responsive form a long progressive training program, where hands and legs are used in the right balance, where that horse is given a chance to carry himself correctly, without rein support, building on that, until the horse can carry himself in frame, on a loose rein, without help


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have seen, just as much abuse, outside of the show ring, as in it, esp when someone that just decides to take up trail riding, buys a western saddle, sits in it like sack of rocks, buys a big bit, and balances and jerks on it, as afterall, that is what all those good ole cowboy movies show!
Sometimes, they have the money to buy a well trained horse, one that has been rewarded by a loose rein, when he is going correctly, and proceed to ride such a horse, with tight rein contact, balancing on the hrose's mouth, never recognizing when the horse is going correctly, rewarding that horse. They don't need spurs on their legs, to be abusive
The outfitter, that made green horses, 'safe; for dudes to ride asp, used a running W to teach the whoa. Those that survived, stopped! The pack saddle he used on those horses, were out right abuse. No spurs or whips, but sure as heck abuse!
I have had bittless people pat themselves on the back, riding with hackamores that can break a horse;s jaw.
It is not the equipment, but the improper use, that creates harsh training, and why I stated, when looking for atrainer, look at one that turns out happy horses, that remain sound in body and mind, happy past customers, respect from their peers
Fellow trainers, know who the good ones are, within their circle, just as surely as fellow doctors know who their good fellow doctors are, ones they would feel good about sending a family member to
Unfortunately, many horse owners need to learn the hard way, don't care, long as end results are achieved, or don't do the nessisary research, before sending ahorse off for training


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

MODERATING
This thread has gone so crazily off track that its going to be closed for a while so we can figure out how best to deal with it to make it work -
Firstly to answer the OP's question correctly so she gets some helpful responses about training methods that don't involve whips or spurs 
Secondly to find a place for the off track discussions because they could be useful in their own right


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

*MODERATOR NOTE:*
Original thread asked about ways to train a horse that did not include whips and spurs. The above discussions were intertwined within that thread, taking away from the OP's original question. Horse forum staff split the thread but left the remainder of the discussion in the original thread. Apologies to participants that may be confused or lost posts with the moderations.


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