# breaking to harness... my plan, what do you think?



## MisssMarie (Jan 31, 2012)

Subbing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

I'd get this book. It's great for beginners. It not only teaches you how to break to harness but gives you the reasons for why you are doing things and how the horses body works when pulling. A great resource.

Amazon.com: Carriage Driving, Updated Edition (Classic Edition): A Logical Approach Through Dressage Training (9780764572999): Heike Bean, Sarah Blanchard, Joan Muller: Books


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you, sounds like a great resource. I haven't looked much into the link as I have absolutely no spare money at the moment (just spent it all on a new saddle) but hey, I have another 8 months.


----------



## oceanne (Apr 13, 2012)

I would do it a bit differently,but its whatever works for you and your horse.We dont always have to follow what someone else does to train a good horse.I wish you the best.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Do tell, what would you do differently? I'm trying to learn as much as I possibly can before I actually get onto the task of harness training her, so that I can pick what works best for my girl from a bunch of different methods.

Something I forgot to ask in my OP is - what is actually the softest driving bit? I know a fair bit about riding bits but I've never sat down and learned about driving bits and their actions and purposes. I really would like to know, so that I can make the most informed decisions possible about my kit and training methods.


----------



## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

You have the right idea but I caution you about taking this and that and what fits into your training to teach your young mare to drive. Do it right the first time, read up on how to properly train a cart horse, my words of wisdom to you is GROUND WORK must be taught and taught till the horse can literally do it in her sleep. She should know that when you say the word "Whoa" you mean whoa and it is to be done now. If you have an arena to teach her and to use, please, use it. Driving a long a road with a green driving horse is an accident waiting to happen, people are stupid when it comes to horses, they honk, they gawk, they speed up on you, all sorts of things that a green horse is not equip to handle and if your green too, neither are you. I say this only out of experience and from having endured a bad wreck.

As for driving bits, I have driven in a snaffle, and don't let people tell you that it is for riding, poppycock! They are a driving bit as well. And just remember, any bit can be harsh, it is the hands that are at the end that will make it soft or harsh. I went from a buxton bit, which is for a wheel team in a larger hitch, so I changed them for a military snaffle. When your in a crowd or are doing something that you need a good "stop" on the horse, you want a bit that you can, again if necessary, you can drop your lines down a notch to get your point across or give you a little bit more insurance that your animal will stop or will listen when it is nervous. I have had to drop my lines down a time or two when my team was nervous, but, when you have two 1800lb mares at the end of those lines and your in a large show, I would rather have their attention on me than the thought of them spooking and bolting. At the end of the day, they are horses and they do stupid things, no matter how well trained they are. One thing too, most harness has an over check on it...I use ours but we don't jack the head back like many do, I want my mares to be able to use their head for balance but not drop their head to try to eat grass or fit faddle around. Many people here use a liverpool bit with great success and they aren't considered a harsh bit. 

I just cannot stress safety enough and caution. As for her being a witch and you never driving in pairs, don't make excuses for your mare. If you harness her to something, again, she should listen and she should do what you tell her to do. My big Percheron mare, Trixie has a habit of nipping and flipping her ears at Smoke or trying to take a nip out of her. I too made excuses for her, oh she had a bad abscess on her chest and remembers that, oh she may be sore, oh she probably has something pinching, etc...nope. She was being a *****, plain and simple and a good friend and mentor had to wake me up that she was doing what I was allowing her to get away with. Now, when she acts the fool she gets corrected immediately, be it a sharp word or her name, a jerk on her lead or if it warrants, as she has tried to nip the back of my husbands back, a slap on the neck and/or chest. We do a lot of public education and drives so having our team pay attention is priority. I am fortunate that they are an older team, they both have worked on a professional carriage service and work well together, as they now work mostly off of voice instead of lines.

Most of all, other than safety, have fun.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

But there are so many different ways to properly train a horse for anything, and no one way works for every horse! That's why I want to learn as much as I can about the different ways to train them to harness.. even though I'll most likely get my mother to break her for me, and hopefully drive her for the first few times she takes to the road. I'm doing the saddle breaking, because I know my way around riding

My girl is absolutely 100% respectful towards me, she is just a ***** to other mares, and when she's in season, she's a ***** to geldings too. She can bitchface with the best... she's not afraid to let fly at bigger horses either. She's just starting to find her dominance so I'm sure she'll settle but I don't want to risk her kicking out and injuring a driving partner, or herself. As much control and respect as you may have over your horse you can't always guarantee that they won't kick, and when you already know the horse is a bitchy dominant mare and won't tolerate another horse so close when she's in season, why take the risk? I also don't have a partner for her and wouldn't have a clue how to drive two in hand anyway.

I guess with the liverpool I can always use it on the big ring and not the notches, and then move the rein to the notches if I'm anticipating bad behaviour.

I have some decent sized pastures and a REALLY long driveway that I can practice on until she's figured out what the buggy is all about, I just also would like to be able to take her out. She just needs more time and miles walking in hand, she's much less reactive about cars than she was. It's only big semitrailers, buses, and idiots in powerful cars that bother her now.

I think we'll hit a sticky patch with her respect soon, like I said she is a very dominant bitchy mare and it's never all smooth sailing! She was pretty hot yesterday when I walked her, and reared a few times, but I got right on her case for that. Hopefully that little misbehaviour has been nipped in the bud.

Groundwork, by the way, is all I ever do with her! I'm being careful not to over-handle her but she's already great to lunge, and I can move her shoulder and her hindquarter without touching her. Backing up at liberty will get there, I can move her sideways over cones, and I've got her halfway mouthed, just need her to accept the bit and halt/backup without crossing her jaw. I'm just about going mad waiting to start doing more with her.


----------



## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

You should be starting her now. What I mean by this is teaching her to stand still while you walk around her. A good harness horse as well as riding horse is one that stands still while being handled and worked on. Teach her patience to stand while you toss a lead over her back down her neck over her rump. Do this lightly. She should stand while you go to her back. Its not going to hurt her for her to get used to harness. By this I mean placing the saddle (harness piece) over back making her stand placing breast plate on making her stand. The key is to have her learn to stand while being harnessed and used to parts to the harness. Then in 8 months shes already 1 step ahead of the training. My horses are ready to longe in harness by age 2 ( unless they are my drafts ) drafts grow at a much slower rate then lighter breed.
Good luck have fun be patient and love your horses.
TRR


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

She already stands still for me to walk around her and do things, I routinely play games with her that involve her job being to stand still and not be fussed by what I'm doing. But I haven't actually harnessed her as I don't have one. We did, left over from Mum's old QH, but it got destroyed in the same incident as the buggy was smashed up. The difference is the harness is beyond repair, the buggy just needs a new axel and some new wood.

She has been saddled with a pony pad and didn't bat an eyelid, she has had a lead around her rump and didn't even react when I started tightening it except to calmly turn herself around so it wasn't around her rump any more (one of the games we play with our horses).

I only want to take her very very slowly and not be actually doing any pulling work until 2.5 at the earliest, she has Arabian blood and almost certainly some draft so she'll be slow to mature. I have attached a pic of her sire to demonstrate, he is around 6 or 7 if I remember right and still growing into himself and filling out. Him now (in the photo) and him when I was researching my filly's breeding before I bought her, are two completely different horses!

I can't afford a harness now anyway, I've just bought a new saddle for my riding horse. But I can start on longlining her in a roller (just have to borrow one), and once she's got that figured out it's actually safer for me to be outside of kicking distance behind her than by her side if she has a moment about a car.


----------



## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

Blue Eyed Pony...tell you what. I have a small horse size harness that is in good repair, it isn't fancy, it is leather, needs a bit of polish and I can go over it once more but....if you can find out what cost of shipment I will go halves on you and sell it to you cheap as I want it out of my basement. I don't have much use for a horse harness at all, I got two sets of horse harness when I bought a courting buggy from an older man getting out of driving as he threw it into the deal, I have enough draft harness to drive a 6 hitch so....you need a harness and I need it gone. If your interested pm me and we can work out a deal....I can even get photo's of it for you sometime this week when I am outside so you can see what it looks like. 

I always enjoy helping those just getting into the fun of driving...


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Sounds awesome GS but like I said I have NOTHING spare at the moment. I'll PM you anyway because I might be able to work on my parents to buy it for me for my 18th birthday... which is roughly around when I need it for anyway! My pony is a December baby, and I was born in October.


----------



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

blue eyed pony said:


> My filly is 16 months old in a week. That means it's 8 months until I start breaking her to harness, because I've pretty much always planned to break her to harness at 2 so I can enjoy her for a year and get a real good mouth established before I get on her back. I figure most horses' knees are closed by the time they're 2.5 so if I make sure she's only in very light harness work at a walk until then, she'll be right. Now is the trime to be long lining her with a soft bit. I started mine in a slightly curved rubber bit. Get her really good with voice commands. When I am doing an upward transition I say "alright Flicka walk on" or "alright flicka trot". When I am doining Down ward transitions I say " Now flicka walk" or "Now Flicka Whao". It has been the best training I could give and it has paid off. I would also do lots of sacking out and getting her used to lines near her legs. When line driving I would drive her up to odd stuff and get her confidence up.
> 
> My plan starts with getting a roller and longlining with me walking the appropriate distance behind, using a PNH stick as a driving whip (it's what I have, because I use some methods to train her that depend greatly on timing and anything flexible throws out that timing). It's something I always planned on to get her mouth really great before I get on her back, so it's simple enough. YOu need a driving whip and it is not for timing at this stage. If you are far behind and need to touch your horses shoulder not sure how you can do that. Or if you need to crack it to get her attention long lining??
> 
> ...


Info embedded in red


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you for the information, it's very helpful.

I have a french link snaffle for her, it's what I've been using to teach her to yield laterally to the bit. I do need to be behind her or on her back to get halt and backup really soft but she knows what I'm asking for... just don't have the refinement there yet.

With the weight thing, I'm 110lb sopping wet in full riding gear (yes I have weighed myself in that situation), is that really enough weight to make them struggle/rear? My girl has dragged me by her halter a couple of times flipping out over cars, I was just bloody lucky I was on grass when it happened... she doesn't flip out so bad any more, usually just shies at the really fast/big/loud ones.

I do have a couple of decent sized paddocks but no proper arena so the ground is nowhere near level, there are holes and a few rocks... is that ok or do I really need to put in a proper arena before I hitch her up?

And re the liverpool, I just don't really want to use something that has that much potential leverage when I'm not going to use that much leverage. She's a calm horse, mostly, and I intend to ride her only in a snaffle. I'd rather have a driving snaffle - a half spoon maybe?


----------



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

blue eyed pony said:


> Thank you for the information, it's very helpful.
> 
> I have a french link snaffle for her, it's what I've been using to teach her to yield laterally to the bit. I do need to be behind her or on her back to get halt and backup really soft but she knows what I'm asking for... just don't have the refinement there yet.
> 
> ...


You don't need a "proper arena" just something large enough to have plenty of room but yet where she can't run down the road. When you get to the point of hitching I would take her somewhere that can help you in an arena.
A liverpool is adjustable for the reins and it doesn't need to have leverage.
Rubber Driving Bit Mullen Mouth Half Cheek / Spoon 5" | eBay
This is the bit I started with but maybe a little thinner and slight tongue relief.
It is dead weight and yes it is WAY TOO HEAVY. It is dead weight and when it doesn't pull easily they will balk, go backwards, rear and try to jump forward. A cart pulls very easy and I am guessing your equipment will probably be entry level which won't have as many adjustments and cause issues and you do not need to compound that and pull weight. This is a thread about a gal who tried pulling some dead weight and then started having issues. You might learn something from it.
Training a Green Driving Horse - Chronicle Forums

You have lots of work to do before you get too far and long after she is dragging you because she is scared.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

OK thank you  she won't pull my weight then until she's been hitched to and pulled the buggy. My buggy is actually quite nice, it was made in the 1800's and been restored a few times since... just needs to be restored again because a previous horse that Mum was breaking to harness had a spack attack and smashed it (was a TB mare that had been abused - she never had a "moment" again after that, because we didn't hit her for it). And it needs a new axel I think because the one it has has been bent (and fixed) at least once before, and it's bent at the moment. There used to be a harness maker in town, I'm not sure if he's still making harness but if anything in the harness I get isn't right I can get him to make it fit, or make a new one, IF he is still working. He would be quite old now, he was old 20+ years ago when Mum was breaking her first horse to harness.

She's not dragging me any more, it was only the first couple of times I took her off the property after I got her home nearly 10 months ago. I've always demanded better respect than that, so she learned pretty quickly that that's just not on. She still has her moments, she's a baby and she's a bitchy dominant mare, but she's getting there.

I only read the first page of the thread, but found it very interesting.

My girl will not pull if her gear is not fitting correctly, she can learn to wear it but I won't ask her to actually pull any weight. She won't have any weight on her back if her saddle isn't right, when the time comes to break her to saddle. Correct fit is very important to me, how can you train a horse to be willing and calm if the gear you're using is causing pain?


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Before I hitched my arab to the cart, I cut two straight saplings and nailed a couple of cross pieces far enough back that his heels wouldn't hit it. The other ends were slipped into the loops and not secured. I don't know why they didn't fall out. I wanted to be able to pull them free if needed. This gets the horse used to having the shafts touch his body and he gets used to the sound the other end makes dragging on the ground. This is a travois like the plains indians used. I practised walking from side to side and correctly changing my reins. I then practised large circles. When hitched to the cart, I had someone hold a loose lead and walk by the horse's shoulder while I sat in the cart. The shafts again were not secured but managed to stay in the loops. I removed the seat from the cart and put a piece of plywood across instead. This way if I had to bale out the back, I could.


----------



## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

For make shift shafts you can go to any local hardware store and get long pieces of pvc pipe. We have used that too. They are light enough to move around, will give the idea to the horse what shafts will feel like and if things do head south, they won't hurt the horse.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks guys  I might get onto getting some PVC pipe, 2 lengths plus an end connector, 2 elbow joints and a couple of end caps will do just nicely to get her used to shafts. Plus they make a nice amount of noise. I'll just have to rig up a quick release in case the noise scares her and she has a panic attack... which I doubt, but it's better to be prepared.


----------



## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> But there are so many different ways to properly train a horse for anything, and no one way works for every horse! That's why I want to learn as much as I can about the different ways to train them to harness.. even though I'll most likely get my mother to break her for me, and hopefully drive her for the first few times she takes to the road. I'm doing the saddle breaking, because I know my way around riding
> 
> My girl is absolutely 100% respectful towards me, she is just a ***** to other mares, and when she's in season, she's a ***** to geldings too. She can bitchface with the best... she's not afraid to let fly at bigger horses either. She's just starting to find her dominance so I'm sure she'll settle but I don't want to risk her kicking out and injuring a driving partner, or herself. As much control and respect as you may have over your horse you can't always guarantee that they won't kick, and when you already know the horse is a bitchy dominant mare and won't tolerate another horse so close when she's in season, why take the risk? I also don't have a partner for her and wouldn't have a clue how to drive two in hand anyway.
> 
> ...


 the rings on a liverpool are called which the reins go through rough cheek some bits have a rough edge and a smooth edge i use a smooth edge on bits with long shanks say slot 2-3 the lower the more leaverage you get.
heres a test for you get your liverpool bit do up the curb chain behind your knee then pull the bar and you can see how leaverage works and fell the presure applyed thats how i use use mine rough cheek its milder.


----------



## Raven12 (Apr 18, 2012)

*pvc pipe*

hi, when you are using pvc pipe as shafts -especially the first time-use a peice of light weight string or thread that breaks easily. that way at the first HINT of trouble YOU can get rid of the shafts, before your horse gets spooked or scared. I would recommend thread.. that way if you step on the pipe.. it breaks.. the noise quits.. horse settles, and you can restart again in a few minutes. 
As the horse grows more used to the noise you can lengthen the time its attached to the shafts.. but the first few times short , non scary is the way to go imo. Thanks


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Hi, that's a good idea too. What I was considering doing is basically setting up a quick release knot tying the shafts onto her harness or roller, on each shaft (with ends long enough that I can hold them), and if she has a panic attack they can be untied instantly, thus causing the shafts to fall away, and then be re-used. Baler twine is brilliant for quick release knots as long as there aren't any knots already in the twine so I was considering using that, or else I have a bunch of smooth rope that comes out of knots real easy.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I used young poplar as I have more than enough, or any tree that keeps most of it's branches up top, about 2-3" in diameter. I used about a 10" wide board (plywood) nailed on well behind the heels. You could use twine to suspend the narrow end across her back so the shafts hang down about mid way. (think Indian travois). Often the horse gets a little nervous when you ask for the first circle as it rubs it's upper hind legs, so keep the circles large at first or do slight turns then straighten. As you circle her you must move to her inside and this is a good time to practise setting your reins across her rump as you step over to the inside. You want to make this movement fluid.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't think we have poplar in Aussie-land but PVC pipe with the baler twine setup I'm envisioning after your description would work pretty well I think. I did have a lovely long branch off a eucalypt that would have made a fantastic training shaft but I wasn't thinking about harness training and burned it in a big bonfire last year  oh well, there will be plenty of others. Hmmm... would pool noodles with broomsticks down the middle work? A bit of stiffness, but all padded so she can't hurt herself?


----------



## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> My filly is 16 months old in a week. That means it's 8 months until I start breaking her to harness, because I've pretty much always planned to break her to harness at 2 so I can enjoy her for a year and get a real good mouth established before I get on her back. I figure most horses' knees are closed by the time they're 2.5 so if I make sure she's only in very light harness work at a walk until then, she'll be right.
> 
> My plan starts with getting a roller and longlining with me walking the appropriate distance behind, using a PNH stick as a driving whip (it's what I have, because I use some methods to train her that depend greatly on timing and anything flexible throws out that timing). It's something I always planned on to get her mouth really great before I get on her back, so it's simple enough.
> 
> ...


 the best way is to use a small car tyre with a small chain and attach it to the traces via the crew punch holes in the traces with a bit of thin rope with a quick release not the reason for the small chain around the tire is if it was the rope it would wear through and it wont get cought round your horses hind legs the other thing is ground work that is a must lunging and useing comands as walk trot and canter and your horse will get to understand the commands whilst on a lunge and with a caverson then you can long rein in the same mannor if you go in a clock wise direction make sure the out side rein passes round the left side hind quaters and the weight of the rein will help the horse as well and you do not need to apply much preasure at all on the rein and you will have a very well schooled horse i never carry a wip and i ask him to turn right i say right right right untill we have done a full circle or the sane with the left the lunge lines in length are 20 meters and with the horses gaits walk trot working trot extended trot if you have an old spinner (cart and your pony is going good you can have a canter or even pratice scurry driveing which is fun through cones with tennis balls on them i wish you the best on your training.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks MichaelVanessa, we have pretty much established that a tyre is going to be the best way to go to initially teach her to pull but I do want to get her used to the shafts before I hitch her up to a cart, partly because the one we have has been smashed so many times by horses having horse moments and I think this time we restore it could well be the last... would be a darn shame if it was destroyed again as it was made in the 1800's and all the metalwork is original. It's one of the reasons I'm considering trying to get my hands on a jogcart off one of the harness trainers in the area. Better to destroy a newer cart than one with so much history.

So the question still stands - pool noodles with broomsticks stuffed inside of them as her first pair of "training shafts". Yay or nay?


----------



## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> My filly is 16 months old in a week. That means it's 8 months until I start breaking her to harness, because I've pretty much always planned to break her to harness at 2 so I can enjoy her for a year and get a real good mouth established before I get on her back. I figure most horses' knees are closed by the time they're 2.5 so if I make sure she's only in very light harness work at a walk until then, she'll be right.
> 
> My plan starts with getting a roller and longlining with me walking the appropriate distance behind, using a PNH stick as a driving whip (it's what I have, because I use some methods to train her that depend greatly on timing and anything flexible throws out that timing). It's something I always planned on to get her mouth really great before I get on her back, so it's simple enough.
> Next step is to find her a harness, one with enough adjustment that I will have a decent amount of time with her in it before I have to get a new one, and ground drive her with a tire on a quick release in case she freaks out. From there, something heavier that I can sit on, and from there, shafts.
> ...


 if she is quiet and listening to your comands i think perchase a second hand troting sulkey and save your old cart when she settles and for best.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeah I was thinking of doing that. The lovely old 1800's buggy is a lot heavier than a harness racing jogcart (even the training ones they use), but I think for her first cart something lightweight and relatively cheap is a good idea.


----------



## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> My filly is 16 months old in a week. That means it's 8 months until I start breaking her to harness, because I've pretty much always planned to break her to harness at 2 so I can enjoy her for a year and get a real good mouth established before I get on her back. I figure most horses' knees are closed by the time they're 2.5 so if I make sure she's only in very light harness work at a walk until then, she'll be right.
> 
> My plan starts with getting a roller and longlining with me walking the appropriate distance behind, using a PNH stick as a driving whip (it's what I have, because I use some methods to train her that depend greatly on timing and anything flexible throws out that timing). It's something I always planned on to get her mouth really great before I get on her back, so it's simple enough.
> 
> ...


 hiya thanks for you message and i wish you the best of luck in driveing.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks  I think she should be a good harness horse, she's real quiet and doesn't spook at much and I think she'll be a natural, she moves her shoulders into pressure readily. She shoves the gates with her shoulders when she wants them to move. Harness or polo/polocrosse would suit her really well I think, I want her to showjump and event but whatever she likes best.


----------

