# Am I too big...



## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

Just wondering what ya'll think, here's me on the lil fella and occasionally on I saddle up for some short routes that are 99% walk. I'm about 155 lbs and he's 13hh. He aint telling me ouch on the way, or going all funny. Feels good to be getting him moving, kinda hate him being just a field ornament and my overweight trick pony. My folks seem to think he's good to go at least once in awhile.


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

Mmmm in my opinion you do look a bit heavy for this pony..Sorry


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

My Salty Pony said:


> Mmmm in my opinion you do look a bit heavy for this pony..Sorry


I hear ya, even once or twice a month for 20-30 mins a pop?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Me too...to heavy and to tall.
Your center of gravity and balance are way above his and that truly bothers me.
It also appears you are sitting on the back of that saddle or whatever it is you sit on and that applies extra pressure to the loin and kidney area...for that reason...make those rides small in duration and go real easy on the little guy.
13 hands is my neighbors Paso size and at 5'6" tall I can drape myself across his back in the pasture...and you appear significantly taller than I.

Sorry, I advocate for the animal and ask you to get off...his kidneys and spine are not worth him getting a bit of exercise to damage.

I use to jog with my horse as a teen so we both got exercise heading out and cheated and rode coming home. 
_Have you tried driving? _ 
Would be a cute driven pony....
🐴...


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

horselovinguy said:


> Would be a cute driven pony....


Oh my gosh, that is so true!!!


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

What about just taking him for walks instead of riding him? You could do exactly what you're doing now, but leading him instead, and you'd both still get some good exercise out of it.


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

Hey it's all good, now I don't have to get all guilt tripped for not wanting to ride him! It's not like I don't have this other fella to keep me busy. Opposite ends of the spectrum "Am I too big for my rider?"


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## Lwest.18 (8 mo ago)

I think if it's a once in a while thing you'd be alright but if you were riding him all the time no your to heavy and to tall. For me I'd never ever ride a horse that was not big enough for me. If you look it up a rider exceeding the weight of 150 pounds should not be riding a 13hh pony, your weight exceeds that limit. Pretend your pony is around 340kg, it should not carry more than 20% of its weight, 20% of 340kg is 68kg, this means your over the weight limit. Don't forget that all of the tack adds to the weight he's holding as well.


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

fancydonkey said:


> I hear ya, even once or twice a month for 20-30 mins a pop?


If you feel like hes needs the exercise I would pony him with your other horse when you go out for rides.  I like that (Am I to big for my rider ) ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm 5'8", 130-140. I ride my 13.2 & 12h ponies. 
They've never complained about it, haven't shown back pain or anything either. 
Yes, I look silly. But that doesn't matter. 
Center of gravity doesn't change based on horse size. Where you carry your own body weight & fat stays the same unless you gain or loose a lot of weight. 
Smaller horses have faster trots that may be difficult to keep up with. 

Is he sagging his back or using it? Slow lazy walk or a working walk with purpose?


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

Would this be the same Welsh section B type you asked about a few months back? As I said before, you're too much for such a little guy - there's very little in front of you, if the saddle fits him and not you, or vice versa, then he's going to get back issues. 

You're right, concentrate on your horse and listen to the suggestions - lead out Mr Grey or teach him to drive


Too big to ride Mr Grey pony?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It looks like your saddle is light and you're able to sit in front of the last rib while also clearing the shoulder. That's very important, with a small pony to have a well fitting saddle. However, I can't see if the saddle fits you, and if it is too small and you're sitting on the cantle, it will cause pressure in the wrong places and could make your pony sore.

Weight-wise, I'll assume your small saddle does not weigh more than ten pounds, which would put you at about 165 lbs total. My 13 hand pony weight tapes at 640 lbs. She is similar in build to your pony. If I were you, I'd weight tape your pony, and also weigh yourself with saddle and boots on, so you know what weight you're actually putting on the pony.

If your pony weighed 640 lbs, and you were adding 165 lbs to her back, you'd be at about 26% of her weight. That's a little heavy for hard riding, but certainly not too heavy to walk and jog around a bit.
With my tack I weigh in at 132 lbs, so am right around 21% of my pony's weight. I consider that light enough for harder riding on an Arab pony.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

They are sturdy and you are not that heavy
I would ride him as much as you like
With gear I have weighed in at 220 to make heavy weight and the horse was doing a 50 miler endurance race and wieghed in the high 700 pound range. I crossed the finish line 1st
Ride him and the heck with how tall you look
Have fun


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

RoadRider said:


> They are sturdy and you are not that heavy
> I would ride him as much as you like
> With gear I have weighed in at 220 to make heavy weight and the horse was doing a 50 miler endurance race and wieghed in the high 700 pound range. I crossed the finish line 1st
> Ride him and the heck with how tall you look
> Have fun


Gawd dang I appreciate this and everything else from ya'll here, I think we're probably gonna have to put this to a vote and it's probably something like YAY 2-3 and NEIGH 4-5?


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## oakvalley (4 mo ago)

A little odd looking to some, but I don't think you're too big- you don't look too heavy either (though that depends on the horse's weight). Balancing may be a little more challenging, maybe not. The camera is also angled from above and might make you look even bigger. 

Doesn't look much different to me than the hundreds of tall cowboys out there riding their short Quarter Horses, as well as the many tall rider/short horse combinations seen at Paso Fino and Gypsy shows. Check him frequently for soreness or pain as with any other horse, check that your saddle isn't too long, and have fun!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Another way to think of it:
If you're at 26% of the pony's weight with the saddle, you're similar to a 230 lb rider with a 30 lb saddle riding a 1,000 lb horse. That's something not uncommon at all.

There are professional riders like Tim McQuay and Shawn Ferrida who ride with ratios at least like that, and I don't think it is necessarily correct to discourage people from riding ponies when it is obviously possible to have athletic horses performing soundly while carrying weight like that.
Especially considering that ponies tend to be sturdy with shorter legs and wide hooves, which makes them more likely to carry weight without issues.








It seems odd to me that some of the high level sports have large riders on small horses, but yet it is discouraged for the average, less intense rider.

Polo









Mongolian Endurance race









Iceland horse trekking









Cutting









Steer Wrestling









I've read about adults online who do dressage, jumping and endurance with their Welsh ponies.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't think you're all that much too big, though you might find yourself tipping over forward because of how much higher your center of gravity is than the pony's. As long as you're a fit, balanced rider, I don't see a problem with it on an occasional basis. I don't think riding him daily would be comfortable for either one of you. Someone else suggested driving or ponying him off of your other horse, those are both good suggestions and fun to do. So if he starts acting touchy in his back, and that's something I'd be looking for then maybe try one or both of those suggestions.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

You haven't mentioned his age. To me, that is also relevant information, as is an estimated weight. 

We have a 13hh pony ridden by my daughter, who weighs in at 135 and is about 5'4" (I thought she was lighter than that because she looks thin, but the scale doesn't lie). Her saddle is light, no more than 10 lbs. The issue is that this is a young pony who needs training so someone has to ride her until we know she is safe for a young rider. I've ridden her as well (I'm 5' and 125 lbs). 

Our pony is 4 and has filled out quite a bit this year. She's probably 700 lbs so technically, my daughter is right on the line. But again, someone has to train this pony, and we don't have another option so we keep rides short and relatively easy. She has not shown any indication of pain or discomfort and really has a bond with my daughter so doesn't seem to mind being ridden by her. 

That being said, if your pony is young like ours, you'll want to be extra careful. Those bones are not done growing and you can cause damage. If your pony is over 6, but not a senior, then it might be ok, but I do agree that your weight may be just a little much for the pony, depending on your pony's estimated weight. Perhaps let the pony's weight and age be your guide here. 

Here's our girl ridden by my daughter at a show (we also want her to have show experience). I think they seem in balance (my daughter is an excellent rider) and not too disproportionate, but I'd say they're right on the line of what a pony this size should carry. I will add that she is a Newfoundland pony, and this is a very sturdy breed that was used extensively as a working pony so they generally have the ability to do that.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

fancydonkey said:


> I think we're probably gonna have to put this to a vote and it's probably something like YAY 2-3 and NEIGH 4-5?


Nothing matters but what you think. You want to ride him then do it
He will tell you if he doesn't like it


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

@RoadRider is very accurate in his comment... "Nothing matters but what you think. You want to ride him then do itHe will tell you if he doesn't like it"
_He will tell you , but will you listen...._

I did read again what everyone has contributed as opinion....








I think what bothers me most is what you look like astride AND because of what it means potentially to that animals back and kidneys...
When you expand your original picture from the first post it clearly shows you are stuffed in a to small saddle with the appearance of sitting on the cantle....and that is just _not_ good for the animal.
The saddle is to spread your weight over a larger surface area...
Your sitting what appears heavily on the cantle, your knees protruding past the saddle flaps tells you _are _concentrating your weight not well nor imo a good structural location...

Someone showed a bunch of pictures of some large adult framed riders astride smaller animals. I think the thing many are missing is "excellent riders" and few of us are that in reality. That "excellent" makes a huge difference to a animal when you compliment them and stay out of their way physically and not hamper their bodies best way of travel.
_I rode for a champion reining trainer....he stood 6'3", not sure what he weighed but he was skinny as a bean-pole... He rode all his animals in training but none were ridden for more than 20 minutes max by him..and in excellently fitting saddles they rode. And there were some issues of a sore hind-end/loin area that the animals needed rested for if they were not up to the rigors of being ridden and using them and the riders weight they carried.. We ponied a lot of animals when they arrived to get them conditioned and better in-shape and we ponied everyday in or out to the training ground also working on stamina and muscle development and maintaining of it._
To do what you refer to doing....sorry, your picture says not with you astride at your height and a weight you must be since you are not emaciated, nor the way you fit to that saddle and how you sit it.

It is your pony and your decision to do as you wish, how you wish and when you wish.
I advocate for the animal and say your frame and weight are to much for this pony to carry for anything more than _a few_ minutes of time and not doing anything more strenuous than walk,_ very occasionally._
It is not the today you will see, but it is what you will do over time and affect the ponies future health which is my great concern.
Since you show you now_* have*_ a appropriate sized animal much more able to carry you and do your bidding I do not understand why to pony the little one or walk/jog for you to both have a good cardio and physical exercise is not considered... _However_, great care will be needed since stride length and exertion level is going to be so much more for the little one ponied compared to your large mount you also showed. At a walk from the horse your pony will nearly be trotting or will be trotting, quite a difference in workout intensity.

I advocate for the animal though. NO, you truly are more than that pony should carry because of where the weight distribution shall be...and bareback would be worse.
My son is 6'2" in his boots and about the weight you mention, maybe a bit less... There is no way he would be riding that small a animal, period. For more reasons than mentioned it would not be happening....

_The choice is yours._ So are the outcomes negative if it arrives you can know the reason is looking you in a mirror. 😐

What also sticks in my head is_ *"Because you can does not mean you should...." *_
🐴....


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

RoadRider said:


> They are sturdy and you are not that heavy
> I would ride him as much as you like
> With gear I have weighed in at 220 to make heavy weight and the horse was doing a 50 miler endurance race and wieghed in the high 700 pound range. I crossed the finish line 1st
> Ride him and the heck with how tall you look
> Have fun


If your horse weighed, say, 780#, it was carrying 28-29% of its body weight. How long was this horse's endurance career? How many miles? Years? What type of terrain? How well did it do overall?


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

Still of the opinion I'm probably too big but I should if I can get a better picture for ya'll. Got to echo in on the saddle comments, that's a point. It's way to small. How can I put this, I mean the placement of the saddle is correct on his back but I just can't find that 'deep' point like you would a normal saddle and from that you establish your correct baseline balance and posture. I feel like I'm sitting or balancing on a rope, sit too far up and I'm right on the poor lil fella's neck and scapula and his shoulders would be immobile. Sit too far back and I'm right on that bucking point (ouch poor kidneys) the margin for error between those two points is ridiculously tight.

Out of interest, I hopped on him for 2 minutes earlier without any saddle in my shorts. He wasn't bothered in the slightest and carried on grazing so I don't think I'm causing him any obvious discomfort. But ultimately it's not really important and I'm kind of playing with hypotheticals. I'm still not gonna ride this lil fella regularly nor do I need to. He's got more important pony things to do!


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

He sure is a cute little fella!!!


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## carole Tudhope gilbert (7 mo ago)

fancydonkey said:


> Just wondering what ya'll think, here's me on the lil fella and occasionally on I saddle up for some short routes that are 99% walk. I'm about 155 lbs and he's 13hh. He aint telling me ouch on the way, or going all funny. Feels good to be getting him moving, kinda hate him being just a field ornament and my overweight trick pony. My folks seem to think he's good to go at least once in awhile.


I think you are OK as long as you don't overdo it. You Look large on him but I think he should be well able to carry you as he s a sturdy little guy. It is better that he get some riding rather than just stand around. If you have to sell him, he will have it easier to get a good home if he is being ridden. I have a 13.3 Paso Fino and I am 135. He seems to have no trouble carrying me and I ride him the most as I am 80 and it is harder for me to get on my bigger horses--Less far to fall also.--LOL.


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

Could I be a little too big for this one, too? It's a bit late in the day as we covered 60 or so miles over a few days :-/

I know this isn't how you ride but boy did that old beat up saddle sure as hell HURT after 5-6 hours every day


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

fancydonkey said:


> Could I be a little too big for this one, too? It's a bit late in the day as we covered 60 or so miles over a few days :-/


I have to ask what the point of this post is? If you are to big for him, as you say too late, because what’s done is done. Is this your own horse, a friends or a school horse? Is there nobody riding with you who can say how the horse is carrying you.

As a plus size rider myself, it’s easy for anyone to look at a moment in time, like this










and say, you’re too big. In reality, I have a bunch of people here, who are all knowledgeable, have no reason to advocate for me over Mellow who all say he rides just fine. People online are kind of guessing, I rely on my team, trainer, saddle fitter, vet, farrier And body worker, who all make sure that he is fine.


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> I have to ask what the point of this post is? If you are to big for him, as you say too late, because what’s done is done. Is this your own horse, a friends or a school horse? Is there nobody riding with you who can say how the horse is carrying you.
> 
> As a plus size rider myself, it’s easy for anyone to look at a moment in time, like this
> 
> ...


Cute horse, weird head structure though and very high tendons. Almost looks like it's wearing stilts! We don't get those around here :-/


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

fancydonkey said:


> Cute horse, weird head structure though


whats weird about his head structure?


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> whats weird about his head structure?


It's unusual and interesting! If I saw one of those here I'd make a big deal. I'm a sucker for cremellos too shame so many people find them scary


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## Txshecat0423 (May 27, 2020)

This will be an unpopular opinion, but if you have to ask if you are too big for a particular horse or pony, you’re already leaning toward knowing you are, in fact, too big for said horse or pony. I know most people don’t care how it looks, but I am 5’6” and I don’t feel comfortable riding anything less than 15 HH because of how it looks to me. I think I’m too big, therefore, I am. That’s not to say I CAN’T ride a smaller horse, but I would not personally get on one. I don’t think I would be considered a plus-sized rider at my current weight, but to me height counts too.

Cremellos are scary??? Why? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

fancydonkey said:


> Cute horse, weird head structure though and very high tendons. Almost looks like it's wearing stilts! We don't get those around here :-/


Can you explain the very high tendons? Are or you talking about the cannon bone on this horse?


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

Txshecat0423 said:


> This will be an unpopular opinion, but if you have to ask if you are too big for a particular horse or pony, you’re already leaning toward knowing you are, in fact, too big for said horse or pony. I know most people don’t care how it looks, but I am 5’6” and I don’t feel comfortable riding anything less than 15 HH because of how it looks to me. I think I’m too big, therefore, I am. That’s not to say I CAN’T ride a smaller horse, but I would not personally get on one. I don’t think I would be considered a plus-sized rider at my current weight, but to me height counts too.
> 
> Cremellos are scary??? Why?
> 
> ...


I dig it. Though, I think my skepticism arose from normally riding an 18hh. Suddenly getting dropped onto a little pokey dainty arab suddenly blew my mind. I've no doubt I could ride and carry myself on something 14.2 but it's hard to tell if I'm 'balanced'. You know how some people can just tell if you look too big. Certainly I found my centre of gravity shift forward somewhat but that mightve been due to the saddle being very shallow compared to what I'm used to.

People in these parts have a phobia of anything 'different' and that usually defies rationality. I on the other hand revel in going against the grain. If I walked around with odd socks half of my town would have a heart attack and die


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

fancydonkey said:


> It's unusual and interesting! If I saw one of those here I'd make a big deal. I'm a sucker for cremellos too shame so many people find them scary


I still don’t understand why you think his head structure is unusual and interesting, too much time driving and working so my brain keeps coming back to this!. Tell me what you see, here this might help.


















and he is NOT cremello, he is red roan overo paint.


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

@Golden Horse, Your gelding is a really nice looking fella, I see nothing wrong with his head are legs, in fact hes got a nice looking head..  .


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

Yes I absolutely agree he is too big and large to ride that pony and it will break him down.
But he could still ride in dressage tests on a pony by using this method


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Just one data point: Bandit was run in relay races in NE Arizona. His training runs were up to 10 miles while ridden by riders weighing as much as 265 pounds. Add a leather western saddle and the total load was around 300 pounds. Bandit weighed 800 pounds when he arrived here. 15 hands. That works out to 37% of his body weight!

It shows no signs of having injured him. However, he DID brace his back like an I-beam and he used his front legs out of synch with his hind legs. Not without a rider, but as soon as I mounted, it was as if he had two separate bodies:






He was 7 when he came here 7 years ago. I don't know how long he could have been ridden like that without damage - but I'm sure most of us would agree over 35% of bodyweight is crazy. Between Keto & IF, my weight is now down to 155 and I use a 20 pound Abetta saddle. Bandit has gained weight...probably pushing 900 pounds now. It took him 6 months to start using his body in synch and a couple of years to finally relax and consistently_ flow _under saddle.






I see no sign the 20% Rule is relevant to most riding. I think up to 30% may be fine, depending on what one DOES while riding. Our BLM mustang is 13.0 hands and his legs are almost as thick as Bandit's. He can handle me fine for most of the riding I do. I prefer Bandit, though, both for size and personality.

If your horse struggles in sharp turns or hills, or pins his ears when you get on, or sweats and breathes hard when asked to do any faster paces, _or braces his back_...time to get a bigger horse. If your horse can_ flow _with you and likes to be ridden, you are fine. And if you aren't sure, go bigger. All just IMHO.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

There is a sense of proportion. When a rider is too big for a horse or pony you know it when you see it. I flinch away from seeing a rider the same width as the horse's backside, and/or feet hanging far below the girth, a rider towering high above the horse, or a saddle that spans the horse's entire back from withers to hip bones.

The 20% rule was used by the US Army and there was a good reason for that. Question of the Week: How much weight can a horse carry?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

AragoASB said:


> The 20% rule was used by the US Army


That is a frequently cited but incorrect statement. The US Cavalry tried to buy horses averaging 1,000 pound (+/- 100) for reasons of uniformity. The standard field load of the US Cavalry was 250 pounds. So the average load was 25% of the horse's weight. The British Cavalry looked for horses that averaged 1,100 pounds, but their standard field load was over 290 pounds. 26%. I've also searched a number of Army publications trying to find a reference to a "20% Rule" but have never found it.

Another guy on a non-defunct military riding forum also tried. He'd been looking much longer than I've been riding. Like me, he could find no record the cavalry thought or taught any such thing. He thought it MAY have been a rule of thumb used for jumping since the first record he could find was in a book written by a guy who specialized in teaching jumping - although that guy wrote as a civilian.

I'll add the scientific study done that recommended a 20% rule was badly flawed. Not only did they deliberately use out of shape horses, but their standard of "harm" was questionable. At 30%, they found a chemical in the blood that indicates stress. It is the same chemical found in joggers' bodies after we exercise! At 25%, there was no change to the blood, but an equine massager detected soreness when giving a massage. That is a very subjective measure of harm. But on that basis, they said 20% was the heaviest safe load.

That is a bit like seeing how far a couch potato can run before stressing their body, and then concluding no one should ever run farther. Exercise improves our strength by first putting stress on our bodies.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

Within that article there are comparative scientific measurements of 20% of weight carrying horses and overloaded horses. These compare vital signs of each group for indications of stress and well as blood tests for markers for muscle damage. It does go on to say that some horses of a chunky build and heavy bone do better when overloaded.









Question of the Week: How much weight can a horse carry?


Q: How do I determine what is a safe weight for a horse to carry? I have received several different answers ranging from 20% of the horse’s weight (including tack) to any horse over 15hh can carry 300 pounds safely. Is there one rule of thumb or standard that I can use to determine if […]




www.horseillustrated.com





"
*A:* A black and white answer to your question was established in an article published in the Journal of Equine Veterinary Science in 2008. This study, done at The Ohio State University Agricultural Technical Institute took eight riding horses, loaded them with certain percentages of their overall body weights, ranging from 15 to 30%, then worked the horses and recorded their vital signs. The results from this study showed that all the horses in the study had no problem carrying up to 20% of their body weight (which translates into an average 1,200 pound horse being able to carry a total of 240 pounds).


Horses carrying 25% and 30% of their body weight had higher heart and respiratory rates during exercise, and muscles that were more sore a day after exercise. So, in short, a good rule of thumb is that an average horse can carry 20% of his bodyweight (keeping in mind this is tack combined with the weight of the rider).

The 2008 study noted, along with the 20% rule, horses with wider loins and those with relatively thick cannon bones were the least sore in the study group based on subjective scoring by the researchers and blood levels of muscle enzymes that are released into systemic circulation during times of excessive musculoskeletal stress. These findings clearly establish that a horse’s conformation also dictates, to an extent, how much he can carry."


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

@AragoASB i have so many issues with the Ohio study, including:

woefully small sample size
I believe they were all “light riding horses”
These horses were not fit, or conditioned for work, for either large or small rider.
While we really do need to think of the welfare of the horse, I also have to ask what the 20% rule really gives us..

What level of activity, for how long, in what conditions?
Go back to Mellow and me, I would not be comfortable riding him at speed across country for hours. I am very happy to ride him up to 2 hours or so on level ground, at mainly walk and trot.

I was working hard last week, at a level of physical work I have not done for at least 5 years, the first day I hurt.

The second day I ached a little but kept going

The third day I was lifting stuff I couldn’t before. If I kept going I would have built strength.
I also relearned proper technique, and the need for comfortable and supportive footwear.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I also disagree that the Ohio study gives any "black and white" answer to horses and weight carrying.
For one thing the idea of "muscle damage," referring to "blood levels of muscle enzymes that are released into systemic circulation during times of *excessive musculoskeletal stress*" is inaccurate.
It would be more accurate to say the products of muscle metabolism are released into the bloodstream with *any *exercise. The amount released is proportional to the amount of exercise (muscle metabolism) that happens. 

So we're discussing CK (creatine kinase), and for example if a person runs a 5k, they'll raise their CK blood levels a certain amount, and that level will increase the longer and harder they run. This means a marathon runner will have higher levels of CK than a person who just ran a 5K. The same thing happens to lactate and cortisol. These are normal physological responses to exercise. They are not indicators of how much exercise is detrimental, they simply indicate the person who ran farther obviously had more muscle metabolism going on than the person who ran less. So the study simply indicated that the horses who carried more weight exercised more than the horses that carried less.

If we concluded that elevated cortisol, CK and lactate meant a horse or human was working too hard, then we would have to conclude that exercise is detrimental. 

Incredibly (sic), the horses that exercised harder were more sore the next day than the horses that exercised less. Now if you ask any person who runs a marathon they'll let you know that they will be more sore after the marathon than they are after running a 5K. This is natural and normal, and does not indicate whatsoever how much exercise is tolerable for any particular person or horse.

Not to mention that the study took only 8 horses that were also completely out of shape (rested for 4 months) rather than seeing how horses tolerated carrying weight when introduced to it through progressive training. The conclusion of the study should have been that unfit horses will have higher muscle metabolism and soreness in proportion to how much the intensity of work is raised. Which is also true for any animal or human, fit or unfit. It was a poorly done study.

This study tested horses to see if adding 15% to 25% of their regular rider's weight (meaning fitter horses) affected their cortisol levels, heart rate, muscle soreness, etc. When they put heavier riders on the horses (up to 23% of the horse's weight), the horses did not show any changes. 
[PDF] Increased Rider Weight Did Not Induce Changes in Behavior and Physiological Parameters in Horses | Semantic Scholar

Studies done at the Tevis cup show no relation between rider to horse weight ratio and completion of the race. 
Tevis Research Changes Thinking on how much Weight a Horse can Safely Carry - EQUINE Ink


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Out of shape horses at 25% and 30% had higher heart and respiratory rates. OF COURSE! I have higher heart and respiratory rates every time I try to run faster or farther than what I am used to running - and this study used horses who were not ridden for 4 months (to ensure they were out of shape) and then only ridden, IIRC, 45 minutes twice a month to KEEP them out of shape. Heck, my thighs are sore as I type from a run I did two days ago. And my shoulders are feeling the metal panels I had to carry around this morning. It is a normal reaction to exercise.

Significantly, CK levels did not show an increase until at 30%. I'm 100% certain I had higher levels of CK after running two days ago! That doesn't mean I should give up running or training. Just means I'm trying to improve my fitness - an admirable thing for an old man or a pasture puff horse!

Books on running or weight lifting will emphasize improvement comes with pushing the envelope of your capabilities, then rest, then repeat. If you exceed the envelope of your capabilities, you will get an injury. Right now, my running progress is limited by nagging injury years ago to the plantar fasciitis in my left foot. It didn't heal properly. Pushing too hard, too soon will reinjure it. Then I'm stuck with weeks of recovery because I'm an old man and cannot heal like someone in their 20s - or 40s! But if I never exceed my comfort levels, I'll be like a good friend who gave up hiking at my age because "I'm getting unstable". His balance is good but his supporting muscles need exercise, not atrophy. He needs to exercise more, not less.

If you want a horse to get in shape, you need to push them harder than they will probably volunteer, but ALSO listen when they tell you it is getting to be too much. That is a balance no percentage can give. But we need to distinguish between_ challenging _a horse - necessary for fitness - and _overtasking _a horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is from the US Cavalry Field Manual 1939:

134. Exercise and conditioning. a. Animals are considered
to be in fit condition when the body and muscular organs perform
without injury the work required. Fit condition is accomplished
by systematic exercise and feeding, which must
be continued even after the condition has been attained.

Endurance, stamina, a good state of flesh, and resistance to disease
are necessary. _These qualities can be attained only by
intelligent feeding and long periods of conditioning work at
the slower gaits, largely the walk. The riding animal must
be conditioned to carry the weight of full field equipment._

D. *The exercise must be regular and graduated and always
within the limits of the animal's strength. Working tired*
*animals when unfit is very likely to cause accidents or disease.*

c. If animals are not worked for any considerable time the
process of conditioning must be repeated. The minimum
amount of systematic exercise necessary to maintain animals
in working condition is 2 hours daily. It is not desirable to
maintain animals at all times at the peak of condition for
field duty, but rather to have them in such condition that a
relatively short period of carefully scheduled work will put
them in fit condition for the anticipated duty.

d. The kind and amount of exercise given to animals depend
upon the work they are to perform, the condition of the
animals, and the number of men available to give the exercise.

f. _Any form of exercise should begin with a period of 10 or
15 minutes at a walk so that good circulation may be established. 
It should end at a walk in order that animals may
be returned to the stables dry and breathing normally._ Dirt
roads should be used habitually for exercise, with only enough
work on hard roads to accustom the animals to traveling on
them. When one man is exercising two horses he should ordinarily
ride one out and the other in, and he should lead
each horse alternately on his right and left. Playful or vicious
animals should be led with a very short rein to prevent
accidents.

g. *The walk Is the prime conditioning gait. Walking develops
muscle, while trotting and galloping develop wind, but
if either of the faster gaits is used to excess the animal will
lose rather than gain condition.* The troop horse gets enough
fast galloping during the training of men and maneuvering,
and his exercise should be carried out at the walk and trot.
The length of trot periods must be suited to the condition of
the animal but in no case should they exceed 7 minutes.​
Notice there is no mention of a 20% rule of thumb. I think it remains good, succinct advice from people who had to buy and condition horses by the thousands! It actually echoes what I've been reading about older humans trying to run a half-marathon: Walking is the King. As Denny Emerson wrote:

_"If you don't want these injuries to happen, be sure you have built such a strong base of steady, slow , incremental work into your horse that his various systems - heart, lungs, muscles, tendons, bones, hooves - can withstand the forces put on them by exercise.

The way to start 'long slow distance' is by walking your horse. When he is totally unfit, maybe start with 30 minutes of walking for five or six days a week..."_


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

Eight saddle horses weighing between 1000 to 1200lbs - were exercised for the same amount of time and speed and physical data gathered. All horses showed showed signs of physical stress such as elevated CKM, length of time for vital signs to return to baseline (the way endurance race horse recovery is evaluated) starting at 25% of their weight. Elevated CK levels indicate some sort of muscle damage in the body. This from wikipedia - "Clinically, creatine kinase is assayed in blood tests as a marker of damage of CK-rich tissue such as in myocardial infarction (heart attack), rhabdomyolysis (severe muscle breakdown), muscular dystrophy, autoimmune myositides, and acute kidney injury.[4] There are, therefore, three different isoenzymes: CK-MM, CK-BB and CK-MB." They were measuring the horse's CK-MM.

Many people, including the OP, state they ride only occasionally and they wonder if they are too large to ride the animal. Of course, this is a decision for each individual person to make.

This is the size of horse that I prefer. The mare and I were not disproportionate.









I used to ride a 14.2 Arabian stallion. He was strong and tough and could carry me far. But my feet were hanging halfway down his forearms and his stride was short. I felt like I was riding a pony.










I used to ride a 14.2 Arabian stallion. He was strong and tough and could carry me far. But my feet were hanging halfway down his forearms and his stride was short. I felt like I was riding a pony.


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> I still don’t understand why you think his head structure is unusual and interesting, too much time driving and working so my brain keeps coming back to this!. Tell me what you see, here this might help.
> 
> View attachment 1139565
> 
> ...


How come he's got a spider thing on his back, is it a horse agility thing to sensitise him? Cute! His face says it all.... See we don't have those colours over here, most people would probably also think he's cremello and be like uh, ew which is a shame. His head still looks funny and squat compared to what we have around here and I'm more accustomed to thoroughbreds. We need more US breeds here, I'm so bored of seeing just warmbloods and Welsh ponies which is what most folks stick to.

If you can ignore the blinkers, look at my chaps head shape 😂


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_@fancydonkey * Did you put tape over that open cup on the blinkers? *_ Looks like it is crushed
In case you are not aware, you can buy different cups to change the sight-line of the horse and they're cheap...and offer the eye protection needed when using blinkers/blinders.

Your horse fancydonkey has the characteristics of a Thoroughbred or Standardbred head with the long flat profile appearance.
GoldenHorse horses head has characteristics of a Quarter Horse and with her telling you he is a paint horse often paints also are Quarter Horse or have strong influence of that breed in their looks.

That "spider" thing on the back is probably just part of decorations or costuming as Halloween just was had here...

To me, Goldens horse is very striking and nice to look at. I see nothing that is off-putting or questionable with any picture she has shared. I like the unique coloring he has.
🐴.... _ jmo..._


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

@fancydonkey he has a spider on his back so you can see his head

















Because when he was wearing it as a hat you couldn’t see it so well.
There was a working equitation show at the barn, Mellow was lame and couldn’t compete, so he got to come in afterwards and play with all the things, and of course I had to up the level by getting him to interact with the decorations.


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## fancydonkey (Jan 6, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> @fancydonkey he has a spider on his back so you can see his head
> View attachment 1139706
> 
> View attachment 1139707
> ...


It looks hilarious, I can't get enough. Maybe I'm over reading the pictures but he's got that look as if to say 'hey dude what's so funny why are you looking at me strange!' He looks so serious?!! Ah I'm going to keep an eye out for silly stuff like that for the upcoming holiday season. Hardly an original look but I need horse antlers for big boy, his ears are so freaking huge I'm not sure I'll find big enough ones though. Little Mr grey pony will also need a Santa's little helper outfit for sure.



horselovinguy said:


> _@fancydonkey * Did you put tape over that open cup on the blinkers? *_ Looks like it is crushed
> In case you are not aware, you can buy different cups to change the sight-line of the horse and they're cheap...and offer the eye protection needed when using blinkers/blinders.
> 
> To me, Goldens horse is very striking and nice to look at. I see nothing that is off-putting or questionable with any picture she has shared. I like the unique coloring he has.
> 🐴.... _ jmo..._


Yep, just a rough duct tape job that for the trial fitting session to make them the full style since the cups are originally half blinkers. Too bad I can't find those different cups you mentioned, mine are Zilco race blinkers and they're stitched on. Either way I totally re-did the duct tape job. Using pieces of hard card I shaped them over the cups and taped those on. So no loose tape flapping about, looks way better and is properly reinforced and sturdy now!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

fancydonkey said:


> Maybe I'm over reading the pictures but he's got that look as if to say 'hey dude what's so funny why are you looking at me strange!'


It is a look of total resignation, because when you belong to me, everything becomes a training exercise, so he is totally over being asked to do weird stuff. But, we keep doing it anyway…because we can, and it’s makes working Eq a lot easier, spearing the bullring is old hat


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## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

@Golden Horse That is the face of “long suffering” resignation all right. Mitch gets the same face (I’m sure he’s thinking “there had better be cookies after all this).












The things they put up with sometimes


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Mod note
This thread has now been closed as it appears to have received enough responses to the original question and is now straying well off track.


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