# Color Specialists Opinions needed



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

How do you get a Dun Paint with 3 stockings (he has a fist sized white spot on his belly and some freckles under his chin) and a sock from a chestnut overo mare and a palomino overo stud? The stud does have a dorsal stripe. I know there's no real explanation without getting them color tested, but I am just looking for opinions on how this happens. The purpose of this thread is because I am just curious and would like to further educate myself on color and genetics. 

DISCLAIMER - Please nothing about breeding 2 frames together. I am fully aware of the lethal genes and the possibility of the colt having been a lethal baby. This is solely asking color opinions on how to frame overo's could produce a basically solid dun baby.


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Pali stallion is probably a dunalino .. somebody carries dun. I've seen sooooooooooo many dunalinos called (and registered as) palominos.


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

One of them was dun, maybe it wasn't noticeable through the frame? I dunno, frame won't usually hide a dorsal stripe...? Somebody wasn't regestered as the 'correct' color. Dun is a dillute gene, and it's dominant, you can't get a grulla out of two solid black horses. One has to have dun for the offspring to get it.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

Would pictures of the horses help?


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Sure .. mom and dad if you have them.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

Stud, you can kind of see the dorsal strip on one of these, the other you can see his darker colors really well















These two have mare and foal in them. The second he had started to shed and you can the color he was shedding off and you can see his dorsal stripe


----------



## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Mom could have potentially dun too and mistaken for chestnut. I'd like some pics too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Lol posted at the same time. Do you have any of moms back? In one she definitely looks chestnut but in the other age almost looks dun. Pic of foals back too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

I don't think dad has dun :/


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Doesn't look like it .. but one of them does.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

this is the best pic I have in my phone that shows her back. I will try to get a better one tonight when I get off work.








These 3 are of the colt's back


----------



## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Does the colt have any zebra striping? I feel like I don't see any dun in either parent. Has the mare been exposed to any other studs?

Perhaps it's just counter shading and he's actually just palomino. Some palomino foals look reddish when they're young.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

That colt has shedded his foal coat .. he's dun, imo.

I'm going with the stallion .. dunalino.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

The colt doesn't have any striping anywhere else. He was the only stud who she could have been exposed to as far as I know (I didn't own her when she was bred). Both parents have dun but its at least 3 or 4 horses down in their bloodlines, so I know that it's possible. Obviously, I mean he's a dun colt, but I guess I won't ever know exactly how he turned out the color he is based on his parents. Either way I still love him haha

I have heard I can have her papers sent in and 10 of his tail hairs to do a DNA test to verify if he is even the stud? Is this correct?


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

I too don't really see dun in either mom or dad, but I personally don't think his dorsal stripe would look that prominent or look the same through all the pictures if it was just sooty/countershading. It looks the same in the picture where he is very young, and the last one. Maybe it's just me, but I see the shoulder stripe and other dun factors here. I think he is no doubt red-based dun. 

Maybe it is possible that it was a different daddy.


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Is the stallion's sire or dam dun?


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

My mare's sire was a buckskin overo stallion


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Go look through the pictures of my horse Dusty. If he gets bleached out, you can barely see any of his stripes. You would never guess he was a dun.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

what are my options on finding out actual color? Is it blood tests that I send in or have done at the vet? How does all of that work?


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Is the stallion's sire or dam dun?


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

no neither of the stallions sire or dam was dun


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

... as listed on papers.

It is coming from one of the parents.. somehow.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

thanks for the help. I guess it will just be a mystery as to how he turned out that way.


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

bird3220 said:


> what are my options on finding out actual color? Is it blood tests that I send in or have done at the vet? How does all of that work?


I think UC Davis has a dun zygosity test...


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

TexanFreedom said:


> I think UC Davis has a dun zygosity test...


I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this and how stupid I am about to sound , but what is UC Davis?


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Horse Tests


----------



## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

bird3220 said:


> I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this and how stupid I am about to sound , but what is UC Davis?


And to answer an earlier question, you do not use blood. You pull about 30 tail hairs with roots attached and send them to UC Davis. You'll need to make an account with them and order/pay for the test and send in the paperwork with it.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

Thank you all for the help and information!


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

bird3220 said:


> My mare's sire was a buckskin overo stallion


 He could have been registered the wrong color, and there is your Dun factor. 
Is the sire of your colt registered and DNA'd? I hope the sire was not owned by the guy where you used to keep your mare..that would be a mess !


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Uc Davis in California. University of California in Davis Ca. Big ag dept and equine hospital and equine program..


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

stevenson said:


> He could have been registered the wrong color, and there is your Dun factor.
> Is the sire of your colt registered and DNA'd? I hope the sire was not owned by the guy where you used to keep your mare..that would be a mess !


 
EXACTLY..... A MESS.... the stud "got out" last year and bred 3 mares, mine was one of them. Geez, am I glad that whole situation is behind me and now I just have to focus on getting papers/micro-chip/anything with my colt on it showing I own him other than the court orders!


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I read somewhere that dun markings tend to show up as the horse's coat color would be if there were no dun gene present. The sire could very well be dunalino, and his markings just don't show up well because there isn't much difference between the coat before (which is already diluted by the cream gene) and after being diluted by the dun gene.

I suspect your colt got the dun gene (but not the cream) from his sire, making him a red dun.

As for the pinto patterns, this is wild speculation because I'm still learning about pinto patterns, but I think the legs + belly spot would indicate splash. I think maybe both the sire & dam might also carry frame, which is a bad combination (possible LWO) but clearly it turned out all right.

ETA- here's a dunalino stallion who doesn't really show any strong dun markings either: http://www.lastgoroundfoundationhorses.com/Starburst.htm


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Verona - Both sire and dam were for sure frame carriers. It could very easily be that the stud is a dunalino. The mare, impo, is not carrying dun.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

verona1016 said:


> I read somewhere that dun markings tend to show up as the horse's coat color would be if there were no dun gene present. The sire could very well be dunalino, and his markings just don't show up well because there isn't much difference between the coat before (which is already diluted by the cream gene) and after being diluted by the dun gene.
> 
> I suspect your colt got the dun gene (but not the cream) from his sire, making him a red dun.
> 
> ...


Yes the mare and stud DEFINITELY are both frame and both carriers of the LWO gene. The Stud's owner has bred the stud multiple times and had at least 5 lethal babies that I know of in the past couple of years. (I won't go into anymore about him though..... I could go on for days at this point )


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I agree that the dun likely came from the stud. IMHO, there is absolutely zero indication of dun in the mare. If that was, in fact, the stud that covered her LOL.

Either way, I think you lucked out completely because 
1) you didn't end up with a LWO foal
2) the stud isn't half bad looking. He's not the best stud I've ever seen, but his conformation is solid.

As for the markings on the foal. Just because a horse is carrying some pinto gene doesn't make it a guarantee that they're going to be wildly colored.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

smrobs said:


> I agree that the dun likely came from the stud. IMHO, there is absolutely zero indication of dun in the mare. If that was, in fact, the stud that covered her LOL.
> 
> Either way, I think you lucked out completely because
> 1) you didn't end up with a LWO foal
> ...


I am trying to determine color so that if I do have him registered APHA or PtHA (for ownership purposes only) I will be able to put the correct information, but I in no way ever intend to use him for breeding. And yes very lucky that he wasn't LWO.....


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

So I am going to just chalk it up to pure dumb luck he wasn't LWO and even though I prayed for months for spots and that he wouldn't end up a lethal baby, I still got a solid paint, it was just the perfect kind of solid (not LWO) so he didn't die within 48 hours!!! If I decide to register him I will reg him as a solid red dun paint. Is everyone in agreeance on that?


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

I've attached some pictures of palomino dun horses, just for reference. 
All different horses, the last two are Morgan fillies from the same breeder, but not related at all. 

I too, think it came from the stud, but I'm with verona1016, maybe you jus't cant see them as well or he's not showing them as well due to the cream. 

Sorry the pictures are kinda big


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

bird3220 said:


> So I am going to just chalk it up to pure dumb luck he wasn't LWO and even though I prayed for months for spots and that he wouldn't end up a lethal baby, I still got a solid paint, it was just the perfect kind of solid (not LWO) so he didn't die within 48 hours!!! If I decide to register him I will reg him as a solid red dun paint. Is everyone in agreeance on that?


Didn't you mention somewhere that he had a white spot on his belly? If there's white skinned markings anywhere on his body, outside of the 'allowed, normal, or standard' markings, then he's a pinto, whether there's white fur over it or not.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Actually I would say all three of those are dunskins and not palomino duns.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

TexanFreedom said:


> Didn't you mention somewhere that he had a white spot on his belly? If there's white skinned markings anywhere on his body, outside of the 'allowed, normal, or standard' markings, then he's a pinto, whether there's white fur over it or not.


I will get some pictures of the white spots (belly) and freckles (chin) this weekend and post.


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Also dunalino:





















dun and palomino can definitely look alot like a palomino ...


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

I do agree that the stud is quite possibly dunalino and not actually a palomino overo. That being the case is the only way I will ever know how I ended up with a solid dun colt


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

I'm going to try to get in contact with the original owners and see if they can give me any info on his registration papers or pedigree...... If I get an update I will post it on here.


----------



## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Wow this thread grew quickly lol. Glad we're starting to kind of figure this out.



TexanFreedom said:


> I too don't really see dun in either mom or dad, but I personally don't think his dorsal stripe would look that prominent or look the same through all the pictures if it was just sooty/countershading. It looks the same in the picture where he is very young, and the last one. Maybe it's just me, but I see the shoulder stripe and other dun factors here. I think he is no doubt red-based dun.
> 
> Maybe it is possible that it was a different daddy.


I was just going to mention that you might not be able to completely rely on that.

This is a picture of a morgan filly who has a very prominent dorsal and shoulder markings. Neither one of her parents were dun. I'm not sure how it looked as she aged though as there are no other photos.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I agree that if he has a big enough belly spot, you can register him as a standard APHA and don't have to register him as breeding stock. According to the APHA registration standards, so long as the white marking on his belly is bigger than 2 inches, then he has "natural paint markings" and would not be considered a breeding stock.

About the color, yes I would go with red dun due to the dorsal stripe and the tips on his ears and I also see what appears to be leg barring in the pic of him in the trailer. So, IMHO, there is zero doubt in my mind that he is a red dun.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

smrobs said:


> I agree that if he has a big enough belly spot, you can register him as a standard APHA and don't have to register him as breeding stock. According to the APHA registration standards, so long as the white marking on his belly is bigger than 2 inches, then he has "natural paint markings" and would not be considered a breeding stock.
> 
> About the color, yes I would go with red dun due to the dorsal stripe and the tips on his ears and I also see what appears to be leg barring in the pic of him in the trailer. So, IMHO, there is zero doubt in my mind that he is a red dun.


The leg barring might just be a little mud, but he definitely has shoulder barring!!! I will give him a bath this weekend and take pictures of his spots and freckles. I want to register him correctly.


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

@Bridgertrot; 
I'm not quite sure what you mean...

The picture isn't showing up.


----------



## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Odd. It's working for me.

Here's a link to the site: Dun Central Station - Look-A-Like Colors
Referring to Best's Bedazzled. She's near the top.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

i can't see the pictures either


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

I was just looking at my mare's reg papers nad her mare was a chestnut/overo and the sire was a buckskin/overo..... she is obviously a chestnut now but she's reg'd as a sorrel/over


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

That's obviously countershading, it's 'smudged' all over her topline IMO. 

I think the OP's foal's dorsal stripe is reliable because it's just as prominent in his baby pic, where he still has his textured baby fuzz, as it is in the picture when he's in the trailer and much older and is done shedding his foal coat. 
Just as texasgal said, he's shedded his baby coat, and there's no color change.

@bird3220; chestnut and sorrel are the same thing. the difference between the two varies by where you're from and what terms you grew up with, but it's the same thing, but the correct name is chestnut.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Chestnut and sorrel can also be used to describe the differences in shade. That's how I've always know those colors. The lighter, more orangey colors are sorrel and the darker, richer colors are chestnut.


----------



## bird3220 (Mar 20, 2012)

I love her darker more chestnut coloring!!!!! I thought she would lighten up because of summer time, but this year she is actually staying the darker color instead of fading!!!


----------

