# LIFE OR DEATH!?!? ***Urgent Advice/Suggestions Needed ASAP! Vet/s Unable To Solve



## Shawnd414 (Jul 18, 2014)

For anyone who takes the time to read this post, Thank you in advance. If you have any ideas or information you feel could be helpful please by all means share it. So far we are at a loss as to the problem or the solution/treatment. 

So heres an idea of the situation as things are currently.
Approximately 10 months ago we purchased a piece of property and moved in. In the process of the move we began noticing that our nearby neighbors had 2 neglected horses basically wasting away in a trash filled 1 acre field with no fresh water source or protection from the elements. In addition these horses (1 17.5h arab cross and 1 14.0h palamino cross) were being sparsely fed obviously moldy hay. Over the course of the next month in our new residence we had tried speaking with the neighbors regarding the horses current conditions on several occasions, Hoping that being put "on the spot" would force better care. It quickly became obvious the horses were destined for increasingly poor conditions despite several conversations with the owners. We then tried contacting the local sheriff as well as the humane society. We were sadly informed that basically nothing was going to be done regarding the horses almost non existent care. At this point I felt the only option was to purchase the horses, Coincidentally it was nearing my wifes birthday and she had always wanted a horse since having one as a kid/teenager. So although we are not "horse people" and were in no way looking for a horse let alone 2 horses, i bought them knowing that no matter what my wife and I could atleast give them a much better life than they had at the time. 

Ok, So the Horses were moved onto our property approx 8 months ago, It took us a week or so to properly prepare and fence an approx. 2 acre field before being able to take them. So upon receiving the horses both were very very thin, Vitamin deficient, Likely full of worms, etc. We immediately called our local horse vet for a wellness check along with any immunizations required. The vet did a full blood workup and very thorough physical as well as making a few supplement suggestions to help them recover. Overall the vet diagnosed both horses as being in pretty great shape other than the obvious diet and nutrition issues. Being neglected horses with a bad diet the next step was to de-worm and call a farrier. We found a recommended local farrier who did an exhaustive almost 2 hour session on the arabian cross (Sam), However the Palamino cross (Buddy) wanted nothing to do with it. In the end we had to schedule a a new appointment with the vet and the farrier to have Buddy the palamino sedated and trimmed. 

Ok, So fast forwarding approx six months, Both horses have put on a lot of weight and had another wellness check just to be safe. Up until a week ago they were both doing Great! Excellent health, Happy, Becoming Sociable, Etc.
At this point they are on a standard diet of quality hay and small amounts of 50/50 grain/oats. Literally the only issue lately is they have both gotten a tad bit over weight, But bear in mind they had been starved long term so we arent too worried about them enjoying good fresh hay grain fruits and veggies a little too much. 

The start of the problem
About a week ago Sam the large arab cross slowed down a little and became a little lethargic. Over the next few days we babied him some and encouraged him to take it easy for a while thinking it was a mild pulled muscle or a sore hoof. Around the third day we awoke to find him laying flat out on his side, Although we realize this isnt as bizarre or unheard of as many new horse owners think, A few hours after full sun-up when he was still down and refused to rise we called the vet. The estimated arrival time of the emergency barn call was 2 hours. Shortly before the vet was to arrive our son happened to come out to visit, He was somehow able to get this giant draft size horse back on his feet. My wife and I had tried literally everything we could think of and were sure this horse was never getting back up. Until the moment the horse was up we were preparing our selves think the horse would have to be put down. Fifteen minutes later the vet arrived and did a full wellnes check and took more blood for a full panel. His visit yielded only 1 possibility, Which was a slight soreness in one leg. No temperature, no hoof pain, good gut sounds, heartbeat, etc. Seeing nothing more than a Possibly Mildly sensitive leg the vet suggested a few days of essentially stall rest (We built a nice run in before moving the horses into the field) and some Bute type powder. The next few days sam spent standing in the corner of the pasture all day until around 8pm (Not dark until after 10pm) and not rising until around 8am mostly by force. We are fully aware about the issue of pressure on internal organs so we have been making him bed on a massive hay pile to lessen the pressure as well as making him rise shortly or manually rolling him over every few hours. During daylight hours he has been staying up, So its not like he is unable to stand. A few days ago we called another vet for a second opinion as well as a stronger pain medication as we believe the extended periods of down time are due to leg pain. The second vet had essentially the same diagnoses, Mild sensitivity in one leg. A stronger pain medication was provided and he has now been slowly working his way 20 feet or so from the hay pile grazing and back to the hay pile again by evening time. We also had our trusted farrier come check his feet just to be sure everything was ok, And everything hoof wise checked out with 2 vets and our farrier. Literally no answer as to what the cause is or what else to do. For the last approx 7 days this horse has barely moved and is basically down for 10-12 hours every nigh. We have been taking shifts staying with him making sure he has everything he needs and monitoring him for changes. Every few hours of down time we force him to rise for 30 mins or so out of fear for his organ health and proper blood flow. During the day he eats readily and drinks plenty of water but seems to have no energy or desire to move. We fully realize that from a human perspective this makes sense since the only possible symptom has been leg pain which Would make you Not want to walk or even stand. If we were dealing with a person we would tell them to simply stay off the leg for a week or two and let it heal. But with having to constantly worry about a down horse suffering internal injuries that isnt an option. We discussed putting him in a makeshift vertical sling in the run-in shelter but everyone including the vet said they see no benefit in this case, Also that many horses actually injure themselves reacting to being in the sling itself and end up having to be sedated or removed from the sling having suffered even more injury.

The Horses (Sam) specifics
Background unknown, But definitely neglected before we received him
Demeanor is pretty bulletproof and at some point in his earlier life someone did take care of him and likely trained and rode him as we once tried saddling him and he behaved perfectly, My wife actually rode him for 5-10 mins but that was the only time.
Age approximated at roughly 20yrs
Current wellness check Great health
Bloodwork done by 2 diff vets in the last week say all clear
Farrier inspected hoofs and verified they are in good shape, Though he did a touch up just to make sure he could walk as easily and comfortably as possible. 
Current medication Bute powder (NSAID) plus a heavier pain medication (no meds prior to potential leg injury)
Current diet 4-5 fresh clean (inspected) flakes of hay and 2 cups +/- of 50.50 grain/oats split into 2 feedings plus approx 2 cups chopped carrot or watermelon (all split into 2 feedings at 9am and 6pm)
Lifestyle Leisurely field horse, No work free roaming and not ridden so far
Field conditions Meticulously prepared with No holes or tripping dangers. Currently the field is pretty sparse as the two horses have cleared it out, though new growth is now underway since summer hit.
behavior prior to this last week was very sociable and upbeat, Always on the move and very playful


The reason i took the time to write such a lengthy post is I know that anyone who takes the time to try and help will likely have questions, hopefully somewhere in this post there might be some of the answers. Again if anyone has any ideas or suggestion please share them as we are at a bit of a loss, We would appreciate it So Much. The only thing we ever wanted from or for these horses is to be free of the nightmare they previously lived and to be happy and safe. Now we just feel helpless and dont know if we are just WAAAYYY over-reacting or if he is dying or what!?!? The vets say theres no obvious problem, But on the other hand something is very clearly wrong. Like I said, he is eating well and drinking plenty, But he is down a LOT at night the last week. He has also developed some pretty nasty bed sores, Which we have cleaned, medicated and covered. We realize the sores arent all that uncommon but it just makes you feel that much worse for them. So far we havent noticed any fluid in is lungs while being down, But his legs sure so shake after rising for a good 5-10 minutes. The additional pain meds hes been administered the last 4 days have helped marginally as he does seem to rise somewhat easier and shake somewhat less as well as walking a Very small amount the last few days. Our biggest question is are we simply over-reacting or should we be in the panic mode we currently are because something is seriously wrong? 

*Anyone who feels like we arent doing enough or are not experienced enough please just keep it to yourself. These horses had no other options and we are doing the very best we can to care for them. If we had plenty of money to throw around we would have Sam taken to a hospital simply to find out What is or isnt wrong. But with both vets giving him basically a clean bill of health plus the fact hes standing all day, eating and drinking well we just cant afford to spend money we dont have on a very expensive hospital bill to find out that there actually is nothing medically wrong. Also please note how we came to have these horses, It was not a case of prematurely buying a horse for fun, The horses were dying before our eyes a little each day. The only reason we got ourselves in soo far over our heads was out of compassion, Not self interests. 

*Bizarre Behavior From Second horse
From the very start of the ordeal with Sam discussed above, Buddy has stuck to his friend like glue. Then entire time he is never more than 20 feet away, And at night he specifically beds down with the injured horse Sam. For the last week he refuses to leaves his friends side, We even had to start feeding him next to sam as he refused to be more than 20 feet away. So Buddy is in great health and a much younger horse, estimated at 12 years old. Yesterday morning it was really heating up and the injured horse was standing in the direct blazing sun so we misted him with a hose to make sure he doesnt overheat. Well since Buddy wont leave sams side he was also in the direct sun, So we tried giving him a gently spray as well. Buddy is a more skiddish semi-unbroken horse and did not appreciate the efforts to cool him down. He immediately ran to the other end of the field near the stable and layed down in a sternal position. He has pretty much been there since for almost the last two days. He will get up and graze in a small area then lay back down. There is nothing wrong with him that we are aware of, He literally just seems to be throwing a tantrum over being misted with a hose 48 hours ago and is still pouting! Not really sure what to make of this as i honestly figured he would forget or forgive the spray of water after a few hours. But he seems to be going to an extreme to make a point, Guess I wont be spraying him off this summer! The only other thing we can think of is a new fly spray we have never used, Since Sam has been down with an injury the flies have been driving him crazy so we broke down yesterday and bought a FORTY DOLLAR bottle of fly repellent. Buddy was not sprayed with this, Only Sam was. But were wondering if maybe something about the smell of it spooked Buddy and is keeping him away, unfortunately we cant stop using the spray on sam until he has made it through this as the flies were driving him insane Hopefully it was just the spritz of water that ticked Buddy off and he will get over it soon, He obviously misses his friend and so does sam. 

Again, Thank You to anyone who took the time to read this ridiculously long post, Our fingers are crossed someone will recognize what is going on with these horses and clue us in. We are willing to do anything we can manage if it will help this poor horse get back to good health. If were just being over-reacting newbie horse owners Please Feel Free to Say So! We will happily feel stupid about our dire concern if it means our horse is ok. Thanks


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It almost sounds like a sling may be for the best.

You may not want to hear it but maybe he's just given up. Age is approximate and it sounds like he's had a hard life.

Why haven't you followed up on the leg pain?

Be careful with the meds, they can cause other issues, such as ulcers.

Kudos to you for all the effort you've put in.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I have nothing helpful for you regarding the older horse Sam, just to say I hope someone will be as kind to me in my old age as you are being to him. 

The younger guy, Buddy? LOL! Well, he needs to learn what's what in the barnyard. I'd put a halter and lead rope on him and he'd get brushed, sprayed with fly spray and hosed with water, more than once a day, until he got over himself and accepted that this is the way it is. 

I start my young horses on a 12 ft lead rope and have the hose barely misting and I start at their feet and go up to the shoulder. I let them walk around me in a circle or walk off until I run out of hose and then I make them turn around and walk back, and I never take that hose off of them. It takes a few days to desensitize them, but pretty soon, you can spray their feet and up to their shoulders and all down their sides, no problem. Once they're ok with that, I start up the neck and over the top of the back and down the butt and tail. They tend to be pretty protective of those areas so it may take a little bit before he learns that he won't melt. Once I can hose him all over with water and have no hissy fits, I start the same way with the fly spray. It may start all over with the spray because it's a bottle of "hiss". Just keep at it. Maybe dilute some vinegar with water, so you're not wasting expensive fly spray on lessons. The key to the whole thing is, they can walk, they circle, they can back up but they can't get away from the spray. Pretty soon, they figure out that it's really ok. 

I'd also be brushing him a lot, finding his favorite spots (his lips will twitch and if you hit a really good spot, he'll make what I call "parrot lip".) and getting him to understand that all good things come from humans. 

Here's a horse enjoying a good scratch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxRSrVgq9KM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6PuGFI4TkQ


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Ask your vet to xray his legs. He could be having issues that cannot be seen on the surface.


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## Shawnd414 (Jul 18, 2014)

*Time to give up?*



Yogiwick said:


> It almost sounds like a sling may be for the best.
> 
> You may not want to hear it but maybe he's just given up. Age is approximate and it sounds like he's had a hard life.
> 
> ...


To start with thanks for the very quick input, It is appreciated regardless of it being good news or bad.

As far hes being at the end of his rope i honestly dont think its that time, Literally up until the day this started he was a very healthy, happy and active horse. Ive cared for animals pretty much all my life, From hamsters to parrots to dogs and cats to hogs and peacocks, Even many exotic large breed fish like arowanna's. I have even taken in 2 different elderly relatives for hospice and cared for them pretty much full time through death. And having seen the lifecycle of countless animals and people including death, Barring heart attack or sudden fatal illness you usually get a clear sense of when a life is coming to an end. Sam hasnt shown me any of these signs, Up until the day his leg was possibly injured we was absolutely a fun loving pain in the *** . In the morning and at night when I holler to them that its dinner time you could hear them come thundering across the field. Anytime you enter the field Sam in matching you step for step, nudging and sniffing your pockets. One of his favorite games is to wait until the wheelbarrow if mostly full of manure and knock it over. Or come up behind you and steal your hat which then somehow turns into a game of keep-away. Nothing in his behavior or demeanor says he is anywhere near giving up. And again his health is great and bloodwork all clear. 


Regarding the leg pain, It has been been checked by 2 vets as well as ourselves repeatedly and seems that at most is slightly tender. Hes standing all day on his own without any interference from us and is showing no outwardly obvious signs of pain other than the desire to sleep at night laying down and the lack of energy. I have physically felt and applied pressure all over his legs repeatedly, If there were a break or fracture I am sincerely confident he would have alerted to this in some degree. If it is a torn or stretched tendon or ligament an xray would of little help and pretty expensive. Honestly if there was any indication is was related to a broken bone I would have already pulled the money together and had it done. And this was also discussed with both vets and neither saw the need.

Regarding the meds, I do realize that the medication needs to be used as sparingly and as briefly as possible, But him being down for these long periods at night is the biggest fear at the moment and the hope is the medications will help get him marginally active, Obviously he needs to take it very easy but we are very concerned about these long down times. 

And the approval is much appreciated, We would like to think any good human being would do what is necessary to intervine in such a situation. It was truly heartbreaking to see them in pouring rain walking in circles starving and hoping to find a weed or something to eat.


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## Shawnd414 (Jul 18, 2014)

*Excitable Buddy*



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I have nothing helpful for you regarding the older horse Sam, just to say I hope someone will be as kind to me in my old age as you are being to him.
> 
> The younger guy, Buddy? LOL! Well, he needs to learn what's what in the barnyard. I'd put a halter and lead rope on him and he'd get brushed, sprayed with fly spray and hosed with water, more than once a day, until he got over himself and accepted that this is the way it is.
> 
> ...



We have been working a lot with buddy slowly. When we first starting caring for him he wouldnt let you get within 100 feet. Initially he was extremely skiddish and still is somewhat. He hadnt had human contact in who knows how long, It took us about two months just to get him to trust us enough to eat within 50 feet of us. Since them we have gotten him used to human contact and can now touch and brush him the majority of the time. Hes building trust slowly but surely. We began getting him used to a halter a few weeks ago and have had some small successes leading him for short periods. Again though by far our biggest goal was just to build some trust and show them not all humans are cruel and heartless. Youre definitely right, And its good advice. We will get there soon for sure, unfortunately all life has pretty much been put on hold for the time being due to sammy's current circumstance. 

Thank you so much for sharing, I was truly surprised to see several people had already responded. Its really nice to know there are still people who will take the time to try and help.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Does he limp when he does walk? If you insist, can you make him walk a bit faster so you can discern which leg is troubling him? Could it be that his neck is out of alignment , or back or hip, in such a way that you can see ?

Of course , the vet probably checked and hoof tested his feet, with the plier like tools, right ? For heat or over sensitivity inside the hooves.

Is he manuring and peeing a normal amount? 

I doubt that buddy is actually pouting for such a long time. Is ther no other reason he would choose that other location, such as cool mud, or shade, or breeze?


Did you change their feed brand?


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## Shawnd414 (Jul 18, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> Does he limp when he does walk? If you insist, can you make him walk a bit faster so you can discern which leg is troubling him? Could it be that his neck is out of alignment , or back or hip, in such a way that you can see ?
> 
> Of course , the vet probably checked and hoof tested his feet, with the plier like tools, right ? For heat or over sensitivity inside the hooves.
> 
> ...


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

You guys are good people, very touching to read.
However with Sam and his problems, I am not sure what it could be. It's not normal for a horse to given in like that if it isn't something else bothering him. Can the leg be a symptom of something on the inside? Blood work would have shown that I guess. 

Do you cool down his legs several times a day? Could you try getting in a third vet, I wouldn't give in untill someone found something. (I would be on my way to a animal hospital)
It seems to early for him to give up on life. I have seen horses push 30 years easily. Especially not after being such a happy pal just a week ago.

I would look in to the sling, slight walking(if okeyed by vet so he dosen't get stiff), call a thirds vet/ animal hospital specializing in horses.

Good luck to you guys, buddy and Sam!


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi,

Hopefully someone with experience will chime in as mine is very limited. I wonder if it could be some form of laminitis? I would imagine the vet would have been able to detect that. I am just thinking do to the diet they are getting. If you don't mind my asking: Why the grain and the carrots? They are probably getting enough with just hay especially since they aren't working. I am also wondering if the sudden addition of green grass pasture to graze after starving could have caused some sort of laminitis? I don't know. I am just guessing here. But if the vet tested the feet I think it would have shown up. Have you felt the hooves when he is acting very down? Can you feel a pulse in the pastern area?


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## Foxy7 (Jul 16, 2014)

I had the exact same problem with a horse I rescued 5 months ago. I rescued three horses together from an owner that abused them and neglected them. Two of the horses, Spirit and Maggie, slowly got better, and by two months they were doing great. But the third rescue, Cinnamon, appeared to have just given up. Her condition was the most severe when we had brought her to us, and it was slowly getting worse because she would not eat or drink. She stood at the very back of her stall, and when she was turned out, she would stand in a corner of the pasture and just stand there while the other horses grazed and played. She wasn`t in pain or suffering, she had just given up. Eventually, she began to grow weak from not eating, drinking, or moving, and she was old, so we decided to euthanize her. Hope Sam gets better soon!


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

lightning said:


> Hi,
> 
> Hopefully someone with experience will chime in as mine is very limited. I wonder if it could be some form of laminitis? I would imagine the vet would have been able to detect that. I am just thinking do to the diet they are getting. If you don't mind my asking: Why the grain and the carrots? They are probably getting enough with just hay especially since they aren't working. I am also wondering if the sudden addition of green grass pasture to graze after starving could have caused some sort of laminitis? I don't know. I am just guessing here. But if the vet tested the feet I think it would have shown up. Have you felt the hooves when he is acting very down? Can you feel a pulse in the pastern area?


I was thinking this to, but I didn't feel experience enough on the topic to say it. But I was thinking the same with food and little exercise.

Also I did know a horse which where allergic to standing on grass once, she would show some of the same signs every summer. In the end she got rubber soles under neath her regular shoes to keep her from getting sick.


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## skiafoxmorgan (Mar 5, 2014)

Yeah, I wouldn't think they'd need any grain at their workload. Look into alternatives. Grain feeding with no work can cause problems. if there is a lot of new growth in the pasture and they aren't used to it, that can cause problems. One thing no one has mentioned is the possibility of a toxic weed. Check your field for plants toxic to horses. http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/horse-plant-list 

If you click on the plant names in the list, you'll be taken to a page with pictures and a list of ailments caused by that plant.


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## Cielo Notturno (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi, I think that you are doing everything that's possible, and actually more than your share since you never wanted horses in the first place. No reason to spend the insane amount of money that it takes to hospitalize a horse, if 2 vets did a visit and bloodwork that came back clean.

I can make some guesses; maybe he's hit hard by the heat and he doesn't want to move much, maybe he's one of the horses that makes a scene for every little thing that happens, I don't think he gave up since you say that he eats and drinks and takes care of not pooping in his bedding area. That's the behavior of an animal that thinks he wants to live.

The only real suggestion I can give you is about the flies: stop wasting money on fly sprays. They just don't work in the long run, or to say it better, they work for the same amount of time that a fly spray works on you, which is very little.

Try and buy a fly mask, or even a fly sheet if the issue is not just on the face; maybe a cheap one since you don't know if the horse will accept it or will tear it to pieces on the first day:











http://www.yourhorse.co.uk/upload/3647/images/Derby%20House%20fly%20sheet.jpg

Yes it looks ridiculous, but a lot of horses actually love it because they realize that it keeps the flies away. 
The full fly sheet might be a a bit too much, I think you should buy it only if the horse shows serious skin issues, if he looks well enough then you can save the money (2 vets would have told you if the horse had a strong reaction to flies)

As to the other horse? Keep trying to make him trust you, but don't overworry. If he has a shaded place where he can stay if he wants, then it's his choice to stand in the heat. He might be truly terrified by the hose, so keep that for another time. 

I agree that horses that don't work don't need any kind of grain, good hay is enough.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Perhaps a change of feed IS a good idea. At least a decrease in what you feed. I would stop everything but the good hay for a couple of months, since you say they are in VERY good weight. It's very possible you are dealing with an allergy to something they are eating. Also, I would have the vets check specifically for tick-born diseases such as Lymes.

Seriously, you really CAN kill a horse with kindness.


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

I have read through every post and say kudos to you saving those poor horses, and all of the time and energy your putting into helping them. 

I suggest getting an equine chiropractor out and have him adjusted. He could have something out of place, a pinched nerve, who knows. Since it just came on so quickly he may have just took a bad step, rolled and twisted himself funny. 

My other thought is since he was emaciated and now has gained weight the extra weight may be stressing a joints, if he has arthritis the extra weight maybe just to much for his joints, plus add in extra heat of the summer he may be to heavy. Staying up all day then by night time he is fatigued. I know you said you did not mind them being a bit to heavy, but with horses being to heavy is almost worse then them being to thin.

I highly encourage you to get a chiropractor out and see if that helps.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I have no experience with something like this either, so I can't give great advice.

Question though- what are his vital signs like when he first goes down? Gets up? During the day?

Really hoping you can find an answer to why he's down so much. And as others have said, sounds like you've given these two a wonderful new chance.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Do you have any pictures of the horse? I commend you for taking them on! Perhaps he is storing energy, and enjoying his new life. My stallion spends a lot of time laying down. Some of my others only roll, never just lay.

If he gets up to eat and drink, pee and poop, then he may just have figured out that life is great in this new place.

These are horses, and they think 2 things when they wake up EVERY DAY....what am I going to eat, and how am I going to kill myself.

Good Luck!


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Your vets are terrible.

Sam is likely laying down to sleep and then is unable to get up. I recommend investigating the leg issue because just blindly treating him isn't working. Get X-rays and an ultrasound to start.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

gssw5 said:


> I have read through every post and say kudos to you saving those poor horses, and all of the time and energy your putting into helping them.
> 
> I suggest getting an equine chiropractor out and have him adjusted. He could have something out of place, a pinched nerve, who knows. Since it just came on so quickly he may have just took a bad step, rolled and twisted himself funny.
> 
> ...


I read your fabulous first post, and is also commend you for such care and your attention to detail.

In the first post the only thing that stood out to me is that you are feeding them too much. Grain should only be fed to horses needing to keep the weight up, or in hard work. Now that yours have regained their weight they should indeed be on a forage and balancer only diet.

I quoted this from gssw as it makes perfect sense to me - and it seems a very likely diagnosis. I hope it is because it is also solveable!

There are plenty of threads on here about a forage-only diet; you will find them useful to read I think.

And if you can get hold of a good equine chiro - or other recommended back person - your horses will benefit from it regardless of this current problem.

Good luck with all of this.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

you NEED xrays. he could have either a founder issue or navicular issues, that left untreated, will end him. just get xrays, they will tell you what is going on inside.


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## Cielo Notturno (Sep 12, 2013)

I forgot to write earlier: you really should find meds to protect the horse's stomach. Even treatment for ulcers can be good. Painkillers harm the horse's stomach as much as the human's.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I could not add a thing given what you have done other than wonder if there is some toxin around somewhere on the property. Even then, I would expect blood chemistry would show a liver or kidney problem.

As for x-rays being needed. Why? There is not even a good place to start taking them. Hoof testers would point to hoof problems and they don't. I assume with this much Vet attention, that there are no huge swelled up joints and I assume all legs have been flexed and thoroughly checked. You can take $1500.00 worth of x-rays and still not know any more than you do not, especially if soft tissue is involved or it is a medical issue (which I suspect). X-rays are a waste of money if you do not even have a starting place.

Where are you located? Is there a University near with a Vet school? I would take him there and either have them check him out completely or would give him to them to further their studies. If you do take him, I would get his 'Buddy' a different horse or pony friend before taking this one away or think about buying a nice saddle horse. As attentive as you are, you deserve a horse that you can at least ride and enjoy and not just be a money pit.

Good luck with him and any future horses.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> you NEED xrays. he could have either a founder issue or navicular issues, that left untreated, will end him. just get xrays, they will tell you what is going on inside.


I was thinking founder as well. Because the OP said about possibly being over weight. A horse that was emaciated to begin with can not just be fed a ton of food and gain the weight. Horses stomachs are extremely sensative. That being said Sam might have eaten too much or too much too fast on his new deit and could have foundered. If so he would be laying down a lot as discribed. When standing he would be in a "rocking horse" stance, putting all his weight on his rear and not putting weight on his fronts or trying not to put as much weight on them and almost rocking back and forth. Though founder is fairly common and you would think that with a visit from two seperate vets they would have detected it. This would require xrays to see how far he rotated his coffin bone. If the rotation was bad enough euthinasia would be the most kind thing. Horses do recover from slight-mild rotation but not severe ones.

Another option would be navicular. In this case you would also need xrays to see how far the bone has deteriated. Navicular is managable with proper trimming and a 2-3 week rotational trim schedule. But if his bone is too far deteriated again, euthinasia would be the kindest thing. 

As the OP said Sam seems to be in his 20's it is possible that he could have some bad arthritis. I would try getting him on some MSM or some sort of joint medication that could possibley be the problem, if both vets are saying nothing is wrong, though at this point I have no idea why they would not have taken x-rays to see if there was a possible bone chip or bone deterition from either of the first two possibilities. Neither would show in blood work or from a high tempature. And he still would be eating and drinking normaly.

Only other thing I can think about would be an abscess. Horses are in a lot of pain from an abcsess my guy has one and it just popped took almost a week with soaking twice a day and putting ichmathol on it twice a day to draw it out. It has been popped for two days now and he is still lame on it. He is putting zero weight on it. He will limp around but has been laying down a lot. Seriously you would think that he had broken his leg. But the OP mentioned that the farrier was out and put hoof testers on his feet, but my vet did that with my horse and did not feel a tender spot he ended up bursting at his corinary band. So it is possibley it could be that.

As for the behavior of the other horse. Right now Sam is in a week position he is hurt and your other horse knows it. Horses are a heard animal and they will protect each other as such. So he is wanting to protect him from any dangers that could be around. The thing with the hose is just lack of training they are going to run from what they are afraid of and obviously they know that you did it so they are going try to avoid that spot for a while and you for a while untilt they think its safe again. I worked with Mustangs before and they are afraid of their own shadow when you get them and your horses are in similiar situations they haven't had anything done with them in a while if ever so they are going to be pretty ferrel until you begin working them everyday and get to letting them know its ok!

I hope this helps some. Also horses do like to lay down in the sun. My horse Sonny is 6 and even before his abscess he lays down in the sun for some of the day because it feels good. And the flies are less likely to be right out in the sun actually they like cooler wetter areas and are more likely to hand out in the shadey areas. But 10-12 hours of laying down is definately not normally typical horses only lay down for 3-4 hours in a 24 hour period. Laying down actually blocks their airways because they are so heavy and sitting on thier legs and their legs is pressing on their airways. So its esentially not good for them to lay down for that long.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Like Gizmo my thinking is founder. The worst time for horses to be on grass is when the nights are cool and the days hot as this is when the sugar level are at their highest. It is safer to turn the horses out at night and off the pasture during the day. Do the horses not have a shelter?


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

1. I'm on the list of folks who are not pleased with the vets:-(

2. It sounds as if the horses are well on their way to caloric recovery. I would get them off grain right away. They don't have jobs, they don't need grain. They do, however need a vitamin/mineral supplement. 

Quality grass/mix hay, fresh water and salt available 24/7 is most important

Perhaps you could tell us what feed company names are available within your driving distance and we could figure out something that might work.

2.1 If weight gain is still needed on any of them, equine rice bran would help.

3. Ditto having an equine chiropractor evaluate this horse.

4. My first thought, while not full blown founder was sub-clinical laminitis. It often will not show up on x-rays, the horse doesn't have any hoof heat, the vet can't find an excessive digital pulse and, the horse can easily pass the hoof tester test.

I know this because my insulin resistant horse foundered with a 9 degree rotation, 10 days after all that was done to him, when he came up gimpy:shock:

5. Toxic weeds on the property is also a good thought; especially since the horses were not in good health and may be eating anything they can get their lips around. 

Caring for a horse, one has loved for years, that has health issues is a slippery slope; it's even worse when rescues are involved and knowledge of horses is limited

You have done a wonderful thing, rescuing these horses. While paying due diligence to their care and rehabilitation, don't get caught up in pouring so much money into them, the next thing you know, you're late paying the electric bill:-(

You can only be expected to give so much


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Other than overweight horse, I don't see any real reason to suspect founder over "slight sensitivity in left rear", and you certainly wouldn't expect the horse to take the classic founder pose when it's a rear foot. Also, founder in one rear only is really quite rare.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

First, bless you for being kind hearted enough to give these two horses a better home. 

I'm going to throw this out there for a possibility on the younger horse now staying away from the older one. By fly spraying Sam you are making him smell different and that may spook the other enough to keep him away. 

For Sam there are a great many possibilities. Some have already been mentioned but I'll put them on my list anyway. Keep in mind that this list will be in no way complete on possible causes.

1. Laminitis that has not progressed to founder, YET. I would think between 2 different vets and the farrier at least one of them would have detected founder.

2. Arthritis, ringbone (this is arthritis either down in the hoof, low ringbone, or right at the top of the hoof, high ringbone) in particular as it's hard to detect in it's early stages because you don't see any changes in the joints or swelling. I had a mare with this and she also spent a lot of time laying down to the point of getting bedsores. A combination of herbal pain relief (Much less risk of getting ulcers from long term usage. DC-Y and Bute-less are the two brands I know of and I used the DC-Y) and a joint supplement gave her a lot of relief for several years until it got bad enough that she had to be euthanized. The only off thing about this is him only laying down at night.

3. As against their natural instincts as this should be, I've seen a few horses over my lifetime that are just drama queens. They have the least little thing wrong that wouldn't make another horse even blink and they'll think they are dying. They'll get a small rock stuck in a foot (I'm talking one that can easily be picked out, not one that has worked itself in and causing an abscess) and are 3-legged lame. Will refuse to move when you are riding and they get tired. A little excess gas and they'll make you think they are suffering from a horrific colic episode. They just have absolutely no tolerance for pain or discomfort.

4. Navicular, haven't dealt with it but again would think a vet or farrier would be able to diagnose.

5. Vision, I have never known a horse to spend hours laying down because of vision problems but since the vets aren't coming up with anything I'm trying to think outside the box. Could it be a possibility that he has night vision problems and doesn't feel comfortable moving about and so stays put (learned behavior from living in a junk filled lot prior to you getting him)? It's the least likely of anything else I can think of but would be easy for the vet to rule out.

6. A horse that does not feel safe and secure will not lay down to sleep. Maybe he lost out on good REM sleep at his prior home and now that he has a place that makes him comfy & happy he's just trying to catch up on years of missed ZZZZs. The minor gimping could be caused from him spending too much time down instead of the other way around.

7. I hope this is not the case but age 20 is getting up there for a horse that has not been kept in good health for all it's life and maybe it's just his time.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Shawnd414 said:


> To start with thanks for the very quick input, It is appreciated regardless of it being good news or bad.
> 
> As far hes being at the end of his rope i honestly dont think its that time, Literally up until the day this started he was a very healthy, happy and active horse. Ive cared for animals pretty much all my life, From hamsters to parrots to dogs and cats to hogs and peacocks, Even many exotic large breed fish like arowanna's. I have even taken in 2 different elderly relatives for hospice and cared for them pretty much full time through death. And having seen the lifecycle of countless animals and people including death, Barring heart attack or sudden fatal illness you usually get a clear sense of when a life is coming to an end. Sam hasnt shown me any of these signs, Up until the day his leg was possibly injured we was absolutely a fun loving pain in the *** . In the morning and at night when I holler to them that its dinner time you could hear them come thundering across the field. Anytime you enter the field Sam in matching you step for step, nudging and sniffing your pockets. One of his favorite games is to wait until the wheelbarrow if mostly full of manure and knock it over. Or come up behind you and steal your hat which then somehow turns into a game of keep-away. Nothing in his behavior or demeanor says he is anywhere near giving up. And again his health is great and bloodwork all clear.
> 
> ...


I would still follow through with the leg. I feel it's hurting him more than he's letting on and/or there is something else going on. I simply meant for an older horse who was not cared for in quite awhile the help may of come too late. There may be something internal. But as long as he doesn't seem to be in a ton of pain I'm all for still trying. Just wanted to mention the possibility. I am glad you're being realistic.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

lightning said:


> Hi,
> 
> Hopefully someone with experience will chime in as mine is very limited. I wonder if it could be some form of laminitis? I would imagine the vet would have been able to detect that. I am just thinking do to the diet they are getting. If you don't mind my asking: Why the grain and the carrots? They are probably getting enough with just hay especially since they aren't working. I am also wondering if the sudden addition of green grass pasture to graze after starving could have caused some sort of laminitis? I don't know. I am just guessing here. But if the vet tested the feet I think it would have shown up. Have you felt the hooves when he is acting very down? Can you feel a pulse in the pastern area?


I was about to suggest something like that. Chronic low grade laminitis. I think it's the "sleeping at night" part that makes it seem so weird.

Overweight isn't good. Even if they "deserve it" Big fluctuations aren't good either.

I'd get rid of all the extra stuff. Carrots as a treat, hay with minerals and maybe a ration balancer if needed.

I would give him something to prevent ulcers if you are continuing the pain meds.

I do think it's legit that he can't get up but the OP said they watch him and he doesn't try until morning. Why the exact same times?

If all his bloodwork is normal I would assume it was not a tickborn disease.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

OP, try this test while the horse is standing; get a good grip on the tail and pull hard sideways (no you can't pull hard enough to hurt him, you aren't big enough), then get back to us here with the results of that test.


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

squirrelfood said:


> OP, try this test while the horse is standing; get a good grip on the tail and pull hard sideways (no you can't pull hard enough to hurt him, you aren't big enough), then get back to us here with the results of that test.


Please do, because I am curious about this test.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I used to work at a horse retirement farm. I've seen lots of older horses with issues.

One thing in particular sticks out to me: "but his legs sure so shake after rising for a good 5-10 minutes"

Leg shaking after rising? That is something you should call and tell the vet. I've never seen a horse with leg shaking after standing up.

Even my old mare who has crippling arthritis does not have leg shaking when standing up. She limps and holds the sore leg up. No shaking.

Is there any muscle twitching in the shoulders or large muscle groups? 
I would suspect this horse has a muscle problem. The thing about muscle disorders is the horse can have attacks, and then go back to normal when the vet arrives...

I would eliminate all grain, all carrots and all watermelon. When he has episodes, do they occur after you feed him? How long afterwards?

There are several different types of muscle disorders. They can be managed with changes in feed (usually). 

https://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/epsm.htm

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php

The second thing that comes to mind is colic or some kind of abdominal pain, but that usually results in a very stressed horse that gets up and goes down repeatedly or rolls, looks at it's stomach etc. 

However, I've seen some horses that will just "go down" and refuse to get back up. My horse is one that just lays quietly when she has colic and doesn't want to stand. Her reaction to pain is to just lay down and hold still. But if it is colic, the vet should recognize it as such. 

Plus colic would not explain the leg shaking.

My third thought would be that this is founder/laminitis even if it is a low grade. Those are the only horses at the retirement home that were down for prolonged periods of time. Most other conditions such as an abscess, in my experience do not cause a horse to go "down" as you describe. The vet should be able to detect laminitis unless he is a horrible vet. This also doesn't quite fit, as if the horse had laminitis, he would give your farrier a hard time. X rays would be helpful if it is laminitis.

Again, this does not explain the leg shaking.

Your other horse is "not throwing a tantrum" from being sprayed with the hose. Laying down, getting up and going back down repeatedly are not normal healthy behaviors and that definitely sounds more like colic. Horses are quick to forget. He may run away from the hose, but will "forget about it" as soon as he is out of reach. He should not act afraid until you go try to hose him again. 

This is normal behavior:
My horse will go down to roll, covering herself in dirt on both sides and get back up... sometimes she will roll twice in a row. Otherwise she is only down for a "nap" for about an hour or so. She likes to nap around noon, and sometimes during the night around midnight (but this can be quite variable). 

Please try to get these horses on video... Anything you think is strange. Video and pictures of the horses will help with a diagnosis.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

As you can see, none of us think you are crazy to be worried about these things. Any time a horse is lethargic and not himself for days on end, we know something is amiss.
yoiu are not wrong to be concerned.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

First, hugs to you and thanks for trying. You don't know how long these horses were neglected. If they had not been dewormed lately (before you took them,) or not at all for years, the parasites could have wrecked the older horse's digestive system and blood stream--strongyles ARE blood worms--and his health was compromised. Agreed that perhaps you didn't know how to slowly bring them both back, and the older horse may just be worn out and giving up. (I don't know how to bring an emaciated horse back, either, never had to do so.)
Their digestive system is the most sensitive part of a horse. Their coats, hooves and muscles can take a LOT of use and abuse, but not their digestive tracks. Agreed, could also be poisonous plants. My neighbors tree trimmed recently and wanted to add to my October party bonfire pile. I told them everything, except that from their Japenese maple, the one with purple leaves, bc my horses live to eat whatever looks good on the pile. And they are, in my Vet's words 2 weeks ago, perfect weight.
Prayers sent for both of the horses and for you. =D


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

The tail pull is a simple test for spinal area nerve damage, and an early test as well for EPM, which presents differently depending on which part of the nervous system is affected. I'm waiting to see how the horse reacted.


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## LyraFreedom (Jan 13, 2013)

Can you post a photo of him when standing up from the front and side?


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## Shawnd414 (Jul 18, 2014)

*Thank You All SOOO Much for the Compassion and advice!*

Initially I was trying to thank everyone who took the time to post individually, However so many wonderful people have replied and offered suggestions and advice it seemed more practical to Thank Everyone At Once! We appreciate all of your responses so much it is difficult to describe. We were hoping that just a few people would take the time to try and assist us with this difficult time. To our surprise Dozens of people have taken the time to offer input, Valued input we are so grateful to receive. Thank you all from the bottom of our hearts!

Regarding Sam, He seems to be doing a little better today! This morning he was already up and grazing when we checked on him. Not only is he grazing, He is covering a larger area! Because he seems to be feeling a little better today we only administered a 1/2 dose of the pain medication this morning. He also seems a little more energetic and lively despite the 1/2 dose of meds. We are hoping this is a strong sign of recovery. Also Buddy slept next to sam last night as had been up until the hose/fly spray incident, Though they did part ways come morning. We are optimistic, and hoping this was in fact due to a minor foot injury that is healing. So far today has been a better day!


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Good news! You'll soon learn that the folks on horse forum really want to see pictures when they "get to know" a horse like this-so please do share some pics of Sam!

It may help people give you some advice on what to look for as he continues to improve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

So glad to hear things are better today! Please be very pro-active still regarding those hooves, and the very best advice I can offer is this : Consider that horses are simple creatures who require few things in their diet in which to thrive! 

_ *Quality hay - 1st cutting_
*_Fresh water _
*_Loose Minerals_
_ *Salt_

Please take out the grain, as it's most likely causing many problems. Think like a horse in the wild....._* Simplicity.*_

Good luck and God bless your care for them


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## Shawnd414 (Jul 18, 2014)

*Update!! Questions answered regarding Sam*

Ok, So the response has been a bit overwhelming compared to what we had hoped for. That being said I will try to answer atleast most of the questions posted.

Colic - No direct signs of colic noticed by either vet

neurological disorder - Again no direct signs, good balance, no odd muscle twitches etc (Also the rear leg shaking immediately after standing seems to have subsided)

Diet - The First month or so the diet consisted of quality hay and supplements only. Grain/oats were slowly added during the second month. Around this point we began feeding small portions of apple and carrot more as a treat than anything. We stopped giving them diced apple due to potential issues with apple skins and seeds, And instead supplemented watermelon. Since then, approx 7 months ago the diet has remained unchanged. We have researched and consulted our vet regarding proper diet, And realize that grain for non-working horses is frowned upon. However that being said humans would be healthiest eating veggies and tofu, Yet we dont. The small amounts of grain/oats and fresh fruit/veggies they receive is the highlight of the day, And we feel they deserve to indulge a little. The current diet seems to agree just fine with them, Should any issue related to diet develop we would of course make the required changes. And again we did consult our vet specifically about this issue, he had no issue whatsoever with the fresh fruits and veggies. He did point out that the grain wasnt really needed, But agreed that the small amounts were acceptable. Keep in mind, Sam is 17.5h+ and weighs a good 1500lbs, 1 cup of grain/oats twice a day is pretty minimal for his size. Buddy gets more like 1/2 cup 2x a day. really the grain is just enough to be a mini-snack twice a day, They are not receiving large quantities.

Founder/laminitis - The vet said there May be a Slight Increase in Sensitivity in his left rear hoof, However in no way to a degree that is of concern. My wife really pushed this point with the vet and he made it very clear that sam's feet seemed fine and that he likely had a simple sore foot. The second vet called in 3 days later basically came to the same conclusion. And they both pressure tested his feet and saw no significant reaction. Also the day this all started we had our farrier come check things out and he also saw no irregularities that would be cause for concern.

Broken/fractured bone - no indications, Standing all day, No perceivable sensitivity or heat. Checked thoroughly by 2 vets and given the all clear. I have also inspected his legs thoroughly myself on several occasions and see no indications of a bone issue or trauma.

Various hoof related possibilities - Again checked by 2 vets as well as our farrier, Farrier said everything seemed good. Both vets did say there was a possible increase in sensitivity, But nothing significant or of concern.

Heat - We have been getting some hot days lately, however the days proceeding up to this were not particularly hot. The warmest days have been since he has been injured, not before or on the day this started. And we have been taking steps to insure he stays cool including rigging up a fine misting rig which we have been using periodically through the day. Also hosing him down in the hottest hours of the day.

Toxic weeds - This was one of our very first thoughts as he has no obvious injury or trauma. The field was inspected prior to moving the horses in, and again when this incident began. We found absolutely nothing of concern other than a few mystery cherry pits that were likely dropped by birds.

Chiropractor - This is honestly something we hadnt really considered. i kind of doubt that spinal alignment is an issue. Though im far from a medical professional so I definitely cannot rule it out. If we do not see continued improvement this is something we will have to address.

Viral/disease - We are seeing no signs of of illness or loss of appetite, Also full panel bloodwork showed all clear. Also no sign of fever at all.

Tick/lime disease - This is also something that sprang to mind and was discussed with vet, and quickly dismissed. and again full blood panel came back all clear. 

Fly spray - Seems someone mentioned fly spray being a possible culprit, However we have never needed or used fly spray until after sam was under the weather. For some reason as soon as he started laying down every fly for miles seems to have showed up and mobbed him. Prior to this incident fly control wasnt really an issue. We keep the field clean and clear of waste and have a large commercial fly trap my son made which works spectacularly. As soon as sam gets better we intend to stop the fly spray.

Hopefully this may help narrow things down somewhat, Im sure ive overlooked a few questions but will try to address them as well soon. Also several people have suggested pulling him sideways by his tail. I believe this was done by one or both vets. Also I just went out and tried myself heres what happened.

Tail pull #1 caused him to lean and step toward me somewhat.

tail pull #2 he immediately pulled back away from me with a significant enough force that I let go.

Tail pull #3 as soon as i got a good grip he sorta side stepped and walked/pulled his tail out of my hand.

Im not 100% sure what the expected result is, But he didnt find the joke funny. Once he caught on to what i was doing he made it very clear he didnt appreciate me trying to pull his tail off! im assuming this is a method of testing balance of some form? i definitely didnt get any sense of pain or anything, Just sheer annoyance.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'd love to see pictures of Sam (and Buddy!)

FYI each hand is 4 inches so 17 1/2 would be 17.2

Very big for an ArabX


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm wondering now if an abcess is brewing which is painful. It can take a good six weeks to blow out the top. Because the horse gets tired of bearing more weight on the other leg it will often lie down.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

You can relax, he passed the tail pulling test. If, however, he had at any point lost his balance enough to be noticeable, well....that's another story.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm on an iPad so typing is difficult but I want to make sure I understand, the horse has only been sick acting for a week or two and the vets pulled blood. I would assume they checked for kidney function and some type of infection. Did they mention white blood cell count?

A few years ago, I had one of mine go off his feed. He acted like his neck was very sor, he barely lifted it. The vet ran blood tests, checked for neurological issues, colic, etc. nothing was out of the norm. We kept him hydrated and watched him closely. It took over a month to get him back to normal and we spent $700 on tests with no answers.

The next summer we had a mare get very Ill. We ran all the same tests with no results. The first horse is now paralyzed on the right side of his face, we can only assume that it's related to the illness. 

Although we've walked every ounce of the pasture, my best guess is that I have some sort of plant or beetle that they have eaten. Anyway, I have one of the finest vets in the area and had no answers so don't discount your vet. Animals can't tell you what's wrong.

My only suggestion would be to give him a round of ulcer guard and make sure he's drinking plenty. Good luck.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

You need to ask what bloodwork was actually run.- a CBC, a chemistry? Most blood panels don't include the tick borne and viral diseases because they are many separate tests and if they did they are very expensive... So most vets won't just run them all without starting to
Pin point. I had looked into a broad Spectrum bloodwork done for a sick mare of mine this Xmas and it was well over 1k+++
Even with my clinic discounts for full
Chem profile, tick borne diseases and full viral / bacterial common diseases.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

Please keep us updated on Sam and his condition. I am a softie, first thing I did this morning was log in to see if you had answered. 

Seems like you are getting very good suggestions here from very knowledgeable people here.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

My best guess would still be a toxin of some sort. Even a small abscess will raise a white count. A virus will give you an 'up-side-down' white differential. I would move them into a pen with no access to the weeds and grass they are now on and if there are any weeds in their hay, I would temporarily change hay sources. If they get better, it would tell you that it could be something they ingested. If they completely recover and you turn them back out, any repeat occurrence would tell you that was it for sure.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

I do not have any new suggestions to offer, you've gotten some great responses already. Just wanted to be another to say, good work and good for you taking them in. It can be very hard and frustrating to diagnose these guys and/or even finding a vet determined to get to the bottom of things for you. Hang in there!

*Broken/fractured bone - no indications, Standing all day, No perceivable sensitivity or heat. Checked thoroughly by 2 vets and given the all clear. I have also inspected his legs thoroughly myself on several occasions and see no indications of a bone issue or trauma.*

I did want to ad that the only way you will know if you have a horse with a fracture is to x-ray. Believe me, I have owned horses for sixteen years and had no idea that two of the horses on my farm right now had un-healed fractures. We brought four horses down to a clinic and even the vet was surprised at the outcome. A horse who spends a great deal of time laying down (intermittently, six or eight times a day) will also bully and run/buck/rear while hes up and around (looking 90% SOUND mind you) came back that he has a severe chronic central tarsal bone slab fracture. Now knowing that he's been put in the retired pen.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Just a few more things to add to all the excellent replies and suggestions

It's possible the horse is dealing with more than one issue. 

I agree toxicity is one of them. By chance, did this seem to happen shortly after grain was added to the diet? There are grain and soy sensitive horses (I have one) but, like people, food allergy reactions can vary with each horse.

I am also curious about this:

*



Founder/laminitis - The vet said there May be a Slight Increase in Sensitivity in his left rear hoof, However in no way to a degree that is of concern. My wife really pushed this point with the vet and he made it very clear that sam's feet seemed fine and that he likely had a simple sore foot. The second vet called in 3 days later basically came to the same conclusion. And they both pressure tested his feet and saw no significant reaction. Also the day this all started we had our farrier come check things out and he also saw no irregularities that would be cause for concern.

Click to expand...

*If you already stated this, I apologize; is the hoof sensitivity the same leg that would occasionally shake after he stood up?

If so, heat in the hoof (mild laminitis that can escalate into founder) could be happening due to an issue further up in the leg, hip, sacrum. 

It would account for a back hoof possibly being laminitic; as others have stated that rarely happens.

You have bent over backward and done hand stands with your generosity toward these horses and I hate spending more of your money but, please hunt down a quality equine chiropractor.

They will travel long distances but do charge a road fee.


Like human chiro's and doctors, not all of them are created equal. If you have any sort of training barns in your yellow pages (including race tracks) call around.

These folks are heavily dependent on physical therapy for their horses and will not have just any Schmuck work on them.

Pictures -- yes we would love to see pictures - lol lol lol


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Well I also asked because I wonder if something would jump out in a picture (probably not but who knows) but yeah I just want to see too lol!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If you found cherry pits, are there cherry trees on your property that they can access or other trees that may pose a problem if they eat the leaves?


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Yes, cherry tree leaves are a BIG problem!


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Hmmm...

Do you have ANY trees where they can access the leaves?

What type of grass is in your pasture? Fescue, Bermuda, etc? Are there blooming weeds? Berry patches? Flowers? 

I agree, switch the hay source. The hay you are feeding now could have been overly sprayed with a fertilizer that he's sensitive to?

Quit feeding any grain. Now that they are up in weight and no longer wormy all they need is pasture and grass. As long as their teeth are ok, I'm sure you've had the vet check them.

Do they have access to salt and minerals, could be a deficiency of some sort?

If he's standing and walking soundly I wouldn't worry so much about his hind leg.

Check his stool for any of those pits, wild cherries have red berries, do you have them around/in the pasture?
If he's got solid normal looking stool (make sure it isn't: overly dry and can still see hay stems, black and tarry, or runny) and is urinating normally (he isn't grunting or flexing, is his sheath extended, has he been checked for a bean?).
Does he crib? (Chew on wood)

Is he losing weight?


My only guess if all the answers above are no or ok...
He's old. Maybe he's lazy, and finally content with life?

You two are doing SUCH a wonderful thing by giving these two an amazingly loving home!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tednbren (May 15, 2013)

The thing that stands out to me is the sudden onset of the change in Sam's behavior. 
Is it possible that was exposed to something that was toxic to him? Something he ate? Something in the yard? Bugs bites? Tick bites? Mosquitos? Is he allergic to anything you might have just started doing? Feeding? Using? Fly spray? Some of these things can cause the symptoms you describe. New bedding? Even shots can cause problems. My mare got a tetanus shot and her neck was sore for a week. I realize you have done a lot of new things for these horses because of their condition when you got them, so this would be the most recent I think. If that doesn't seem feasible in any way, could he have had a stroke (which he may recover some from) or something of that nature? Just some thoughts I had. Would like to know how he is doing!


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I think what you're doing is beyond terrific, and your obvious concern and love for these animals is amazing. Don't be discouraged; you're doing exactly what you should be doing even to the point of asking the advice of complete strangers!

I'm going to go in a slightly different direction here. First, I've fostered many older horses that were donated as feed to an exotic feline breeding compound (think lions, tigers, etc.). Before these horses could be butchered, they had to go for 30+ days without any medication, so I've seen a lot of old horse issues, laminitis, founder, muscle, nerve and bode issues, etc. I've had to steel myself against their pain, give them what comfort I could, and try to see the benefits of their useful deaths as opposed to being buried in the landfill.

That said: if his rear foot is slightly sore and possibly laminitic (per the vet), and he's a bit shaky upon standing, I'm going to go with the possibility of hip issues; pinched nerve, or maybe a bit of arthritis. You said he's up to normal weight and maybe slightly over. That's putting more pressure on his joints, and if his foot hurts and he's shifting weight to the good foot, that increases the hip pressure even more. Lying flat eases that pain.

My recommendations are to :
a) stop giving him grain. You aren't giving him a treat, you're giving him proteins and calories he doesn't need (and you're wasting money). Stop the watermelon, too. It's pure water and sugar. If you must give him something as a treat, buy a bag of timothy pellets and give him a handful now and then. 
b) reduce his overall caloric intake and let him drop a little weight. He's spent years being skinny; he should be slim - his old bones aren't used to the excess weight. 
c) minerals and salts, yes, but also consider a joint supplement like Cosaquin. 
d) avoid giving the bute after his evening meal. If he's not moving around, eating and drinking, that NSAID is sitting in his stomach potentially causing ulcers. 

Again, I think you're doing a wonderful thing by giving these two boys a better life. I hope Sammy and Buddy have many more years under your loving care.


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## horseNpony (Sep 27, 2013)

Hi, sorry, nothing to offer here, I just want to say good luck with him and hope he improves even more  

Subbing


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Horses rarely experience hind leg lameness to do with the hoof, the hock, yes but if he's passed the flexion test then that should eliminate joint issues. This is why I'm wondering about an abscess. A friend's horse was dead lame on a hind for just over 6 weeks and one day it blew and he was fine. Vet was puzzled as the horse passed flexion tests, hoof testers, blood work.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I have nothing to offer either, except to ask what the blood panels covered. Magnesium? Iron? Calcium? How are all of they?

And I would like to pat you guys on the back for doing such a phenomenal job with rehabbing these two. What lucky horses. You are the perfect example of what should happen if a person finds themselves in a situation where they have horses and no experience yet. Research, involve professionals, and dont be afraid to ask questions. Sending prayers and jingles for Sam!


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Hello and bless you from a fellow rescuer!
You did a wonderful thing for these horses! I am ashamed of the authorities and so called animal control, rescue people in your area. Here in Kansas I have 5 legitimate equine rescues within a 100 miles of me. If I ran into a situation like your horses were in I would have had all of those as resources. I have no doubt that I am in a unique area/position. It breaks my heart that you had no one!
I have a great understanding of weight issues. As soon as I got Charlie up to where is was only slightly underweight he started limping and ended up diagnosed Navicular. Being starved actually kept him free of that pain because there wasn't enough weight on his feet! It is amazing what can show up in a rescue! Not so much relevent to this case, just that weight can cause and hide all kinds of things. Any animal's weight is very important. Excess weight can be just as bad. Note my diabetic cat.:-?
Ideal weight is where you can feel ribs with very little pressure. You don't see ribs, but it doesn't take much to feel them. As much as you may feel that these horse have "earned" a few extra pounds, I promise that you are doing them no favors having them carry extra weight. An older horse is more prone to arthritis and excess weight can bring it on. Look up information on metobolic issues caused by excess sugar. 
You are angels for rescuing them, noticing problems, bringing in multiple vets; simply going above and beyond the necassary! 
Please remember there is a reason behind the saying "kill with kindness" It happens with the very best of intentions!


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## Shawnd414 (Jul 18, 2014)

***UPDATE on SAM*

Hello everyone, We are sorry for our sudden absence and lack of posts regarding our friend Sam. Prior to posting on this site my wife and I had already been dealing with this situation for close to a week, I think we finally crashed from the sheer lack of sleep! 

We did have a really bad night a few days ago. Sam bedded down in the middle of the field as he has been since this situation began. The difference is we had a sudden burst of Very Heavy Washington Rain. I spent HOURS and HOURS in the pouring rain trying to get him up and to the stalls. My absolute worst fear was for sam to develop pneumonia, I fear that would have done him in. He has already been very weak and in pain, Pneumonia would just be too much for him to handle at once. Lacking the proper equipment like a tractor and sling, i had no feasible way to get him up unless he cooperated. After literally an hour in this downpour Gave up on moving him and instead resorted to rigging a shelter, in the dark, by myself, in the pouring rain, over a 1500 pound immovable object. Not a fun night to say the least, But the pneumonia was staved off! After getting about 1 hour of sleep (while soaked to the bone) the sun began to rise and i woke in a sheer panic, angry at myself for falling asleep. I darted back outside to find Sam laying flat out under the still dripping tarp, motionless. After pretty much crashing through two gates i skidded to a stop inches from his side hoping with all of my might he would be startled and respond, or even rise in response. Nothing! Not a twitch, My heart literally fell to the ground. The nearly unthinkable had happened, In that 1 miserable hour of being alone. i placed my hand on his side, With an overwhelming sense of grief and self-loathing. After about 10 seconds of silently holding my hand on his side, He Jumps UP! Dang near knocked me on my a**. The following expression will never leave my memory, Absolute shock and befuddlement on the face of a Very confused horse! My assumption is after the never ending rain soaked night of misery, Like me Sam crashed due to a lack of sleep! What I imagine was probably even funnier was what im sure was a utterly ridiculous look of complete disbelief and confusion on My Human Face =0)

The last few days Sam has been improving slowly. He seems to be rising on his own with no significant issue. He also began refusing the meds the last few days, Which combined with his slow improvement we take as a very positive sign. We also reluctantly reduced the grain feedings to almost nothing, They are each receiving roughly 1 cup x 1 time a day of 30%grain/30%alfalfa pellets/40%oats. Not only has the overall amount of feed been reduced, It has also been further diluted with more oats and the addition of alfalfa pellets. As of yesterday I was beginning to reluctantly accept that the grain may have contributed to the problem, and that since it was reduced Sam was showing signs of improvement. *Read ON!

Last night my wife was fairly upset thinking that we had possibly caused this whole issue by overfeeding grain. In order to cheer her up I had remembered I had taken some pics of both Sam and Buddy shortly after moving in next to them(Prior to us purchasing them) and thought that seeing the state they were in when before we took them in would cheer her up. The logic being despite our possible mistake with the grain, The horses clearly have had a better quality of life. In the process of tracking the pics down in my hard drive i came across a video I had taken of them to show the police, or anyone who would possibly act in the horses best interests. While playing the video I made a bit of a revelation, in this roughly 60 second video I noticed something peculiar. Sam was shifting his rear legs repeatedly, Almost profusely! It must not have registered in our minds at the time the video was taken due to the fact that sam was pretty much in bad shape all around, Including not having his hooves maintained in who know how many Years!. After reviewing the video several times it became quite clear, Sam has had serious issues with his hind end since before we even took them in! This is a long standing condition that must have flared up recently, Drawing our attention to it. We are still processing this new information, And are looking into its possible meaning.

However as things are now Sam seems to be slowly recovering, My immediate guess would be that he injured a tendon or ligament his left rear leg at some point in the past. And that after we took him in and he received proper care the injury had healed, But was recently re-injured? I do know that healed tendon injuries are always prone to re-injury. This is the working hypothesis for the moment. Either way knowing this was a pre-existing issue is a useful piece of info, And also happens to alleviate most of the guilt we were feeling about the grain. Just to be safe we will stay with the currently adjusted rations . Which in reality is very very little actual grain. 

Condition wise Sam seems improved, He has been laying down somewhat less, Is getting back to light grazing, Is rising much easier, and seems to have a little more energy. He has also reunited with his best friend Buddy, And they are once again attached at the hips. And again, He is mostly off of the medications and seems to be experiencing less discomfort.

These recent signs of recovery have been a blessing, Not only for the obvious reasons. The last week or so my wife has been insisting that we should end his suffering, Spurring, Lets just say emotional "discussions". Each day it has become more and more difficult to retain her trust in my judgement. Not only that but 80% of the people ive spoken with, including on this site have mentioned having him put down. As I have explained before, I have had more than my share of death in my life. I have have physically felt the life leave many animals and even humans while in my arms, And if you are open to it there are clear signs and feelings you get when that time is near. Im not a religious person by any stretch. You can call it a life force, a soul, a spirit, Or simple electricity, Either way there is a very profound and unique feeling when a life has reached its endpoint. I have not felt this from Sam, I get an overwhelming sense he still has fight in him. As such I have been insistent that we fight on with him, regardless of the difficulties or cost. Ive continued to stand by my judgement, Knowing deep down that if I am wrong not only will his suffering be my burden to carry, But my wifes suffering as well. If I were the praying type, I would be on my knees right now asking if im doing the right thing by asking sam to fight. However along with the possibility of death comes the possibility of Life, And having spent so much time with flickering lives near the precipice you also get a strong sense of when something still has life left. In this experience and judgement I choose to follow my instincts, And so we fight on. Fingers crossed that the last two days are an indication of a growing and vigorous recovery. We cannot thank you all enough for all of your words of support and advice, You have been a lifeline when we felt quite Lost at Sea.:wink:


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Im subbing cause I hope to hear more about Sam's recovery!!


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

Thank you so much for the update! Go Sam!!:clap:
You listen to those instincts, you've had more than enough experience to have some pretty darn good insights.:hug:
Sometimes the craziest situations, the rain storm, can bring about the most amazing changes! Just when we think it is the darkest, the light shines through!:thumbsup:
We still want pictures!!


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## Shawnd414 (Jul 18, 2014)

*More updates on Sam to come*

We will absolutely try to keep everyone informed on his status and hopefully full recovery. It is absolutely the least you all deserve for doing so much to try and help us through this very difficult time. With any luck we will have increasingly positive news to share. Thanks you all soo much!


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

Yes definitely pictures!!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i hope that you have had the time to document some of this with photos. surely, with your skill at writing, and the photos, you could get this published. if not in book form, at least as an article in Equus magazing. they always have a story of illness/injury and recovery in every issue they print. please consider sending them your story. especially, verbatum, the last paragraph you wrote about the life force, in your arms, and when you know it is at it's end and ready, and when you feel it is not so. your writing is exceptionally good.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Have you considered that Sam may have PSSM? I'm really starting to wonder that because he is showing a lot of signs of PSSM...and he is part draft. Drafts are quite prone to this disorder. Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM or EPSM) in Horses

_*Signs and Symptoms*

Most of the signs and symptoms of PSSM have to do with the muscles, which makes sense, as the disease affects the muscles.

Common signs and symptoms include:

Exertional Rhabdomyolysis
Exercise Intolerance
Muscle Stiffness
Shifting Lamenss
Back Pain
Camped-out stance - standing with legs behind or in front of body instead of directly under
Muscle atrophy
Colic-like symptoms_

PSSM is very much controlled by diet. Grain makes it worse.

_*Controlling Symptoms with Diet*

To control the symptoms of PSSM with diet, horses must be fed a diet that is low in starch and sugar and high in fat._

_This type of diet has been shown to reduce the frequency and severity of symptoms.

To be helpful, the total diet must contain less than 8% of the digestible energy from starch and sugar. In addition, it must contain more than 10% of digestible energy from fat.

Horses with PSSM must also be exercised regularly, as lack of exercise increases the frequency and severity of symptoms. In fact, even if the diet is changed, there will usually not be a reduction in symptoms unless the horse also receives regular exercise and turnout._

_The exact recommendations for a PSSM diet are:

Feed a minimum of 1.5% body weight of forage per day
Remove all concentrates containing grain or molasses from diet
Use alternative energy sources if digestible energy needs are more what is provided by forage alone.
It is suggested that the forage provided be grass or oat hay, as these hays are lower in starch and sugar than legume hays._

Maybe he does have PSSM, and he lays down from the muscle pain/weakness/pain, so he stays down but then gets so stiff that he has a hard time getting up? MANY PSSM horse shift their hind legs repeatedly...And they don't have to be overweight or even fed excessive grains to get it.


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## Cielo Notturno (Sep 12, 2013)

Thanks for the update! I am again amazed by the level of dedication and care you are giving to this horse that you never planned on buying; you are doing more research than many people who owned horses all their life.

I think you should follow your gut instinct, if the horse still fights, he can endure his discomfort and he still wants to go on.


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

Thank you for keep us updated


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

You know, this could be as simple as this. 
1. older horse, possibly arthritic (20 for a draft is usually on the old side...especially if they have had rough care) 
2. recently emaciated, little to no muscle tone likely even after weight gain. 
3. Horse put on alot of weight but was not excercized. You may as well have saddled him with a bunch of lead weights. 
4. Its hot and a draft horse is thick bodied and even healthy young ones can have trouble in the heat of the summer due to body mass. 

Heavy draft horse that is old with arthritus in a hind leg? He just cant get up easily after he lays down and likely lacks muscle. its hot and he probably cannot dissipate heat as well. Totally explains this without any other apparent health issues. 

Were it me, and the horse was not lame at all and there were no other reasons for this, Id start exercising this horse lightly as tolerated. Walks, walking up hills. Saddle and ride around the flat. A light trot when the horse can handle it. Hose the horse off before and after. (dont worry about the untrained one. That is just a training issue. You probably need a trainer for that horse or you coud get hurt)


Oh and ditto PSSM!


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## Patches101 (Jul 26, 2014)

I know you can have different surgeries done....maybe ice it to help it take away some pain! Ummm... Try soaking his leg in Epsom salt 4-5 times a day for 15 minutes. My cous is doing this and it helps her horse!
Happy trails!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wbwks (Apr 5, 2014)

Hi, 

I admire you for taking the horses and giving the care they deserve. 

My common sense thought is that perhaps the people you bought them from are ****ed off and are poisoning them? Since both were affected to some degree and the symptoms came on suddenly it seems possible that poison could be the culprit. 

I don't have college knowledge but I have read enough Patricia Cornwell books to know that some poisons don't show up on blood panels. 

Just a thought...

Best of luck!

Wendy


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Patches101 said:


> I know you can have different surgeries done....maybe ice it to help it take away some pain! Ummm... Try soaking his leg in Epsom salt 4-5 times a day for 15 minutes. My cous is doing this and it helps her horse!
> Happy trails!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Surgeries for what?


Also, I missed where the horse became a draft. Everthing I read said "Arab cross" (I agree 17.2 hh is tall even for a cross) Just now sure when the breeding changed.


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## mikaylafrenier (Jul 27, 2014)

Shawnd414 said:


> For anyone who takes the time to read this post, Thank you in advance. If you have any ideas or information you feel could be helpful please by all means share it. So far we are at a loss as to the problem or the solution/treatment.
> 
> So heres an idea of the situation as things are currently.
> Approximately 10 months ago we purchased a piece of property and moved in. In the process of the move we began noticing that our nearby neighbors had 2 neglected horses basically wasting away in a trash filled 1 acre field with no fresh water source or protection from the elements. In addition these horses (1 17.5h arab cross and 1 14.0h palamino cross) were being sparsely fed obviously moldy hay. Over the course of the next month in our new residence we had tried speaking with the neighbors regarding the horses current conditions on several occasions, Hoping that being put "on the spot" would force better care. It quickly became obvious the horses were destined for increasingly poor conditions despite several conversations with the owners. We then tried contacting the local sheriff as well as the humane society. We were sadly informed that basically nothing was going to be done regarding the horses almost non existent care. At this point I felt the only option was to purchase the horses, Coincidentally it was nearing my wifes birthday and she had always wanted a horse since having one as a kid/teenager. So although we are not "horse people" and were in no way looking for a horse let alone 2 horses, i bought them knowing that no matter what my wife and I could atleast give them a much better life than they had at the time.
> ...


So sorry for no help on your Arabian! Best wishes. But for the younger one, try separating them every once in a while to reduce the "herd bound" issue, my 6 y/o doesn't like to leave the mare that's in her pasture either, but I can't separate due to the fact that she's being boarded. But that is what I would do. I don't know if you're having problems leading him or not, but if you are try using a training rope with a chain on the end. One side attaches to one side of the halter, then pull the chain through the other side in the hole. When you walk forward and he stays it will lock up and he will pull against it and then jump or release and walk forward (stand to the side). It teaches him to give in to pressure. After a couple of times he will get it. It worked great on my 6 year old thoroughbred rescue. 

As for sprays and water, get a spray bottle of water and vinegar, lead and halter, and just spray away from the horse till he's comfortable and spray at his feet then work your way up. Standing his side against a wall will help prevent his back end from swinging away from the spray but is only an option. Hope I helped!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I guess that I just assumed he was part draft since they said he is ~1500 lbs and 17.2hh. Only thing I know of that would make an Arab cross that tall and solid is a draft, but I could be wrong. Even if he isn't draft x though, I still think he could have PSSM.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It is likely, or he's just not an Arabian x and is a purebred or x of bigger breeds. (Part of why I asked for a pic)

I do think PSSM is a possibility.

I was just confused because people started saying draft and I wasn't sure why lol.


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

I would love to see pics, mostly because after all this I feel bonded to these guys!!:lol:


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

I didn't realize how long it's been! We would love an update!


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Wild cherry pits and seeds? Cherries are poisonous to horses. If he ingested a few seeds or even nibbled on some branches over a fence, he might have a mild case of poisoning. 

Also check your field for other plants on the Not So Good For Horses list. It's late and past my bedtime, but there are lists a-plenty if you google them. Oleander and nightshade come to mind.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Would also love an update!


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## Princessa (Apr 10, 2014)

Updates?


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## BarrelracingwithSkipper (Sep 25, 2014)

i am sorry i am not much of a help but maybe he ate a poisonous plant have you checked you paddock for any poisonous plants?


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## BarrelracingwithSkipper (Sep 25, 2014)

hey i have been following this for a while and am anxious to know how they are doing?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Horses can still do ALOT while in pain. A friends horse, Wishinonastar (RIP Star 1998-2014) was put down yesterday. they had JUST gotten weight back on him, he was grazing and looking like a normal happy horse. he just stopped going down alot and looked like he was on the road to recovery. He kept blowing abscess in his front left leg and looked like he was blowing one yesterday. Then the vet xrayed his hoof. Poor horse's coffin bone had not only rotated but was poking out the bottom on his foot. It looked like an abscess on the surface but it was the bone. They put him down then and there. but he was hobbling around and grazing while the vet got everything ready. He was saying hi to the other horses and his friend who was turned out in the arena. he was led, limping but without a fuss, over to the vet when it was time.

Its amazing how much pain they can withstand and try to act normal. For a while star was down one day and then up the next. I would have ALL your horses feet and legs Xrayed. It gives a window into what is happening inside. The vet, farrier and owners thought he had a mild case of founder until they saw the xrays. Same for blood work. It is a window into what is happening inside the horse. its not that expansive and alot cheaper to know what is going on then chasing symptoms. its also less of a heart ache. 

(sorry if you posted you already did xray, i did not read past pg 5)


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