# Bucking after a few steps under saddle - help



## tpup (Oct 14, 2010)

We are ruling out pain with a chiro/vet appt tomorrow, but does anyone have experience with a horse who is fine being lunged, tacked up, and sat on in saddle, but after about 2 steps from the mounting block, explodes and bucks hard. He is 7 but in essence, a baby. (was just broke this past winter). He was SUPER spooky when we got him - hyper alert type horse, sensitive. But after almost 60 days with my trainer being handled on the ground daily, grooming, tacking up, lunging nicely, has voice commands, leads nicely, ponies with her steddy eddy on short trail rides, his spookiness has greatly improved. He is still, in essence, a baby though.

The two times we attempted riding him, we did so carefully (weight on back, mounted and stood for a bit) all fine until he takes a few steps. He then EXPLODES and bucks 2-3 times hard - like rodeo buck. Sent me flying and an advanced eventer rider who stuck through 2 of the bucks but the 3rd got her off. We are ruling out pain before we send him to a more sticky Western trainer (not a mean one, but one who deals w/problem issues).

Has anyone had this issue and resolved it, or any advice or experience? At worst, he will be a companion to my pony when we move to our own farm this winter. I won't sell a "problem" and would worry he would not end up in a good place. I will need a 3rd horse to stay with # 2 when I take my main riding horse to events or to ride. My trainer has come leaps and strides with his temperment in general. He used to jump out of his skin when someone sneezed! He is pretty "normal" on the ground now.

Would love any experience or advice...also of any who had one like this that could not be trained out of it. Hopefully that's not the case.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Rule out the pain first. And get his teeth checked too.

That is a pretty extreme reaction to have, even for a horse the is just acting up.


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## tpup (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you - I agree. He has been bitted and bridled with no issue, and led that way and teeth were looked at by vet, but will sedate and do full dental to be safe. After he bucks, he is fine, a.e. he doesn't continue bucking, no bolt. He stops and stands which is why it could very well be behavioural...as in "oh, they are off now...great!".


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

Barring pain send him to the trainer. Horses will buck out of fear, then they realize they can get rid of you and out of work and it will become a habit. A trainer knowledgeable in fixing this sort of problem will be able to fix it. The caveat though is the knowledge of bucking a rider off will be in the horse forever and you will have to gain the knowledge and tools to keep it from happening again. All doable but get a trainer before you or someone else gets hurt.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

Could it be an ill fitting saddle? Maybe it's pinching somewhere when he walks with weight in the saddle?


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Yes, I would also want to try to rule out pain with the weight in the saddle while walking. Perhaps you could tie a 50lb sack of something to the saddle, then lead the horse. If that goes well, add another 50lb sack. If he is OK with 100lbs, I'd be inclined to think it's behavioral.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

if pain is rulled out, I bet fear, especially since he is a more reactive horse. I watched a clinton Anderson video once that was dealing with a bucking horse, and he had the owner desensitize it, by getting on and off bare back and with a saddle many times, flopping around, patting the horse every where, sliding off the butt etc. By the time the owner actually asked for forward movement, the horse was so comfortable with a human flopping all over his back that he just walked off normally.

coincidentally, my cousins gelding is like this, and coming along nicely now. He would stand stock still for mounting, even with a cocked leg, then walk a few steps and go nuts. He was freezing initially, because although he was afraid, he had learned that standing still and appearing to relax made the humans back off, so he did it, but it was just a show. He needed extensive desensitization, by someone that was not afraid of his reactions.


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

BlueSpark said:


> if pain is rulled out, I bet fear, especially since he is a more reactive horse. I watched a clinton Anderson video once that was dealing with a bucking horse, and he had the owner desensitize it, by getting on and off bare back and with a saddle many times, flopping around, patting the horse every where, sliding off the butt etc. By the time the owner actually asked for forward movement, the horse was so comfortable with a human flopping all over his back that he just walked off normally.
> 
> coincidentally, my cousins gelding is like this, and coming along nicely now. He would stand stock still for mounting, even with a cocked leg, then walk a few steps and go nuts. He was freezing initially, because although he was afraid, he had learned that standing still and appearing to relax made the humans back off, so he did it, but it was just a show. He needed extensive desensitization, by someone that was not afraid of his reactions.


Yes I know the episode you are referring to the horse learned he could buck the riders off so he did. CA has the problem fixed in a few hours. He taught the kid (16yo I think) how to desensitize, do some lunging and basically get the horses respect he also had him do the Jefferies Method I think it is probably on youtube. But this sounds like a problem for a professional to fix. The more times the horse bucks off the rider the harder the more engrained the habit will become.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

the way i read this the horse is not really broke? has he been ridden at all? If this is the case, Im thinking find an old, heavy, western saddle and some one who can stick that beast and let the games begin..... From the sounds of things this horse either wasnt broke out properly or has learned a valuable lesson..... buck+tossed rider= no rider.....

We go through this with almost every horse we break. if you can stick out the original reaction bucks and get someone to lead the horse forward till it will go on its own, then ride out the ocassional fit thrown in, you should be golden in a weeks worth of lessons.

Jim


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I shall echo some of what the other posters have said:

A pain issue some place (eg back, shoulder, hip, legs, etc). I see you've got someone coming out to have a look at that.

Bad fitting tack. You may wish to have someone trained in saddle fitting look at this.

Rider error. Perhaps hanging on the his mouth when asking him to walk on, etc. 

Alarm at something above him. I remember a horse like that who was fine with someone drapped over the saddle - walked along like a pro but once the person sat upright he would start serious bucking and he was a heavy set 16 hander so he could really launch a person. After a bit of desensitizing he came round nicely and was a good mount thereafter.

Alarm at movement on his back. The feel of a person shifting around on him may be affecting his balance (understandably so for a green horse) and he panics. Another desensitizing situation where I have heard of good success working them in a round pen or lunge line with a rope tied to the saddle and a second person wiggling the rope/saddle so the horse gets used to movement happening on him when he's moving.

It does sound like your guy does not have a lot of life experience under his belt so it comes down to more desensitizing training for him and more patience and persistence on your part to get him educated. As well, since he is a little older he just might take longer picking up the concepts. If the western person you are planning on sending him to is any good, he'll probably 'fix the problem' in short order.

Good luck and keep us posted on his progress.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

One of my trainer's clients recently acquired a horse like this. The gal they purchased him from had no problems with the horse, move him to the new barn & wham unpredictable. For him it was a bit of an odd fitting saddle & cold-backed. When he warmed up he never thought about bucking again. He was the same way though. She could saddle him up, tighten the girth, lay across his back, etc. But the moment she sat up on him & asked him to move out - always bucked. And this was a horse who'd been in training & ridden for a few years.


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## tpup (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanks everyone. He was broke - this past winter, had a few months of training - supposedly w/t/c and over some low rails, but then was taken to a hunter pace of all things, as his first "outing" in April. I have seen photos of him being ridden in the pace. He has very distinct markings (tobiano) and white chunks in his mane and tail. It was definitely him. After the pace, the then owner deemed him "too spooky" and he sat in a field, we believe pretty much unhandled except for feeding, until we saw him in July. When we saw him in July, he was fearful, headshy and incredibly hyper alert and spooky. He was afraid of bathing, terrified to go into a stall (for the vet's eye check where it was darker)

Has nothing to do with pulling reins as he was being led by my trainer when he bucked. All we tried was a pony ride basically. Could be saddle, or the movement of the saddle. We tried an English saddle that fit him pretty well. I do have a Western saddle we can try as that would not be as pinchy-prone. I love the sandbag idea. Tomorrow should be telling when the vet/chiro comes. I saw him today and he was nearly perfect on the ground. Zero issues.

It very well could be learned, a.e. buck = no work. But we do want to rule out pain first. I'll update after the chiro visit tomorrow.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Im thinking find an old, heavy, western saddle and some one who can stick that beast and let the games begin


Its funny, I've been starting horses since I was 15. I discovered shortly, from riding peoples problem horses, that I could not ride out a bucking horse. Violent spooks, rears, the odd buck, quick turns, unexpected jumps, I could ride like I was glued to the saddle, but as soon as a horse really goes to bucking, off I come.

so I learned to deal with it in other ways. I checked saddle fit and the horses back. I learned proper groundwork so the horse was respectful and had no fear of the tack or rider(eliminates 99% of the buckers). I have had two horses that I started buck. 

I think "cowboying it" should be a last resort, especially with a fearful horse.


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## tpup (Oct 14, 2010)

Interesting I reached his original breeder (who had him until age 7 but did nothing with him, but I do believe cared for him well). I asked her when he was gelded. She said age 3, and he was asleep for it, but that "interestingly, after he was gelded he was decidedly different - worried about everything." Can horses have a "chemical" reaction after gelding?? From anesthesia?! Very weird.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

This all comes down to holes in his training. I've met a few horses like that. 

Get a backpack and some old outdated textbooks from a garage sale. Tie it down really really well to the saddle while the horse stands there and lunge the horse.

If you get no reaction from weight, the next thing I would try is getting a giant teddy bear (or very large stuffed toy). You want something that moves around up there.

If neither of those get any reaction than you have something else- most likely fear of people. I've known a few horses that were either bronco bucked, or someone really beat or scared them. Non human objects did not bother them. Having a person up there did. If that is the problem than you need to build a trusting relationship with the horse. A cowboy probably will only make the problem worse if he rough handles the horse for bucking.

With one mare who really bucked badly and had fear issues, I would lean on her back on a mounting block, and ask her to bend her nose to her side and feed her treats. I did it for weeks. Lean on her, never actually getting on. Once she was really comfortable with bending around for a reward, and standing calmly, I started mounting her. 

She was terrified that the person on her back would hurt her. I spent a lot of time rubbing her all over while leaning on her, rubbing my foot on her rump like I was about to mount etc. Keep working on groundwork. 

She bucked me off twice (and badly), before I re-started her using the above method. The person I rescued her from was known for beating his horses for any little thing. Poor girl was just scared.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm thinking(assuming pain/saddle fit is ruled out) that something like Blue Spark described is the way I handle this sort of thing.

Firstly, I echo, has the trainer ridden him? If not & you're not experienced/able to stick with it, I'd definitely get him started well professionally first, because this behaviour will very quickly become a dangerous habit.

So assuming the horse was well started - he's confident & comfortable being ridden under saddle - remember still that you're a different kettle of fish to the trainer because horses don't generalise well. So if he's such a reactive type, I'd basically 'start' him again yourself, ensuring he's truly confident & relaxed being sat on first, before asking for any more - eg. get off *before* he gets reactive & repeat over.


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

4horses said:


> This all comes down to holes in his training. I've met a few horses like that.
> 
> Get a backpack and some old outdated textbooks from a garage sale. Tie it down really really well to the saddle while the horse stands there and lunge the horse.
> 
> If you get no reaction from weight, the next thing I would try is getting a giant teddy bear (or very large stuffed toy). You want something that moves around up there.


Along these lines, last year I had a fiilly who I had a feeling would be nervous with someone over the top of her. So what I did was take a sweatshirt and jeans and "built" a riding dummy of sorts. I filled the sweatshirt and pants up with straw/hay and attached them together with safety pins. I tied the bottom of the sleeves and pants with baling twine. I sacked her out with my new "rider" then I put her in the saddle. I used the baling twine on the sleeves to tie her hands to the horn and the twine on the legs to tie each leg to a stirrup and then I lunged her and let my girl take the brunt of the first ride. I let her flop all around. The more..the merrier. Then, after my filly was OK with her, I took her down, and climbed on for my first ride. We ended up having a great first ride.

Not sure if this will help you or not.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^^Also recommend desensitising horses in this way to things falling off & dragging. You only have to see someone once with their foot caught in the stirrup while the terrified horse bolts &/or kicks to take adequate training & equipment precautions!:shock:


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

You need to make those first steps undersaddle safe for you, if those first steps are forward then you are setting yourself up for failure. Those first steps can be frightening to the horse and you want as stress free of a ride as possible. Just finding a cowboy to ride through the problem isn't going to fix anything really because the cause of the problem still exists. 

If you do use a dummy rider please go with something very light. The last thing you want is a heavy thing flopping around up there, all that will do is make your horses back sore and your horse even more likely to buck now from fear and pain.

IMO the first steps under saddle should always be to disengage the hindquarters. I like to step on with the horses head flexed and with either split reins or a dressage whip. Flex both ways to make sure your horse is soft. Then I slide my leg back, cluck and then use either the split reins or the whip to get the hindquarters to move a step. Some nervous ones to scoot around a bit worried but that next step that they're taking while being worried is up and under themselves, not a lot they can do wrong there. From the very first steps under saddle you are building a safe brake. 

I keep asking the horse to just move around their hind end until I have a soft response, not a reaction. I repeat this on both sides. Then i'll start moving around some, the horse is welcome to get worried and the goal is not to stop them moving, just redirect it. 

Now I do like having a ground person on those first few rides to make it less stressful to the horse. My ground person is the one to back up my cues with one the horse understands. 

When the horse is comfortable just moving their hip the next step is to get the front end moving a bit. I'll use my ground person to move the horses hip then I will open my hand outward and my ground person will ask the horse to move, with the hip away the next step the horse will take is to move their front end over. The rider still has the horse bent and in a safe position here. Go around in these little circles until you feel the horse relax. When that happens you can let the head straighten out and have your ground person ask the horse to walk forward. An important thing to note is at this time the rider is just going to pretty much be a passenger, they aren't the one to ask the horse to move forward, that's the ground persons job. Any time the horse gets anxious they should be bent around and their hind end disengaged. 

On a really nervous one, just walking around the roundpen could very well be the place to quit for the day.

For that first ride to be successful, a great foundation in groundwork is needed.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

BlueSpark said:


> Its funny, I've been starting horses since I was 15. I discovered shortly, from riding peoples problem horses, that I could not ride out a bucking horse. Violent spooks, rears, the odd buck, quick turns, unexpected jumps, I could ride like I was glued to the saddle, but as soon as a horse really goes to bucking, off I come.
> 
> so I learned to deal with it in other ways. I checked saddle fit and the horses back. I learned proper groundwork so the horse was respectful and had no fear of the tack or rider(eliminates 99% of the buckers). I have had two horses that I started buck.
> 
> I think "cowboying it" should be a last resort, especially with a fearful horse.


Im going to assume that you arent 18 and have broke more horses than I have ( read as respetful). However, If this horse has been ridden I don't see this as a fear thing. I see it as a horse who has learned how to get out of work, and I would almost bet money that this isn't going to go off like a professional rodeo. I would say if someone can ride it out for 3-4 bucks then this thing will be headed in the right direction.

Jim


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Im going to assume that you arent 18 and have broke more horses than I have ( read as respetful). However, If this horse has been ridden I don't see this as a fear thing. I see it as a horse who has learned how to get out of work, and I would almost bet money that this isn't going to go off like a professional rodeo. I would say if someone can ride it out for 3-4 bucks then this thing will be headed in the right direction.


I am older than 18, and as I have no idea how many colts you've started, I cant really compare:wink: This is what I've gathered from the OP. he had some training some months ago, but was obviously acting out in some way, as he was pegged as "spooky" enough to warrant not riding. Then they have had him do 60 days of ground work, and tried to get on him, which resulting in bucking.



> He was broke - this past winter, had a few months of training - supposedly w/t/c and over some low rails, but then was taken to a hunter pace of all things, as his first "outing" in April





> But after almost 60 days with my trainer being handled on the ground daily, grooming, tacking up, lunging nicely, has voice commands, leads nicely, ponies with her steddy eddy on short trail rides, his spookiness has greatly improved. He is still, in essence, a baby though.


To me, a older green horse that is very reactive, has not had extensive riding and had a lot of time off, freaking out doesn't shock me. I have worked with thoroughbreds that would fit this description, and for the first year or so under saddle, every time they have time off, they need a mini refresher "restart", to chase away any fears that have come back to haunt them.


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## tpup (Oct 14, 2010)

UPDATE after vet/chiro appt - thank you everyone! Well this should dispel some of the going back and forth  First of all, he was superb with the chiro. Having never met her before, he was calm and quiet for the appt. However, we did discover he was in some pretty serious pain, and very locked up especially in the right hip, stifle, SI, and exhibited soreness at the withers and poll. It is our suspicion that this horse was injured or fell, possibly landing on his right side and back. We also discovered that the saddle we used rocks with movement, putting pressure in the rear on some of the areas he was very sore. One can speculate many things - did he fall at the hunter pace? Or was he ridden in an ill fitting saddle for his training/breaking? Unsure. It is also evident that his withers are somewhat sunken in one area. Again hard to say, but we will have them Xrayed to make sure there aren't any chips or obvious pain causing things in the withers. They are not broken now, but there seems to be evidence of mis-shapen withers. He was very reactive at the beginning of the appt in his sore areas. Clearly uncomfortable when she very, very lightly tested those areas, tight, stepping away, ears pinned but remained stoic and good throughout as if he knew we were there to help him.

By the end of the appt she was able to work his joints, adjust him in some of the areas, and he was a much happier and relaxed boy. He was given bute and turnout afterwards and the recommendation is to continue with a few more follow-ups with the chiro/vet, Xray the withers and in no way attempt backing until after winter - but to instead continue with groundwork and taking him places/trailering, ponying, find a better fitting saddle for things like ponying and lunging which he is now very good at and enjoys. Another option is to try ground driving again to instill respect, skills, commands etc.

My trainer emailed and said yesterday his anxiety level and behavior in general was remarkably calmer and less reactive. I do believe the poor boy was in pain and if you saw his grateful reaction at the end of the appt to both the vet and us, he was clearly telling us that. He was flexing, licking and chewing, exhaling, yawning, all as if to say "AAahhh, THANK YOU." 

He is smart and highly trainable but agree we must now treat him as unbroke because we need to make any attempt at riding positive. I do believe something happened abruptly with the last owner as he was ridden in that pace and it was immediately after that, that he wanted him GONE. But we do not know the outcome (he did not place in it - we know that) I wanted to add that the chiro is a practicing, well respected vet in our area of over 20 years. She is phenomenal and not a "quack". He clearly walked off better afterwards and she is certain he would have been in pain with a rider on his back based on how he was just standing in the cross ties with all of her testing.

I am so glad we had her out. He is a sweet boy. With a full winter with us he should have a good foundation of trust before we attempt riding again. I am in no rush and have a great riding horse currently that I ride and show, and just want our new horse to be happy, healthy and enjoy whatever we try with him. I know he is smart but he isn't bad, and never exhibited a mean streak so we do believe this was more of a pain issue, yet we know it will now be in his mental memory and need to be carefully undone very gradually.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Well, tpup, in the scheme of things that's decent news to have and it looks like you've put a good, workable plan in place for his rehab and future training.


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## Stilton (Oct 31, 2008)

Poor boy. Maybe he spooked and fell? Glad you've found out what the problem was!


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## barrelracer541 (Jan 11, 2017)

NorthernMama said:


> Yes, I would also want to try to rule out pain with the weight in the saddle while walking. Perhaps you could tie a 50lb sack of something to the saddle, then lead the horse. If that goes well, add another 50lb sack. If he is OK with 100lbs, I'd be inclined to think it's behavioral.


If you do end up putting weight on the saddle make sure its not too much at one time because you could seriously injure your horses back.


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