# Do horses feel bad when we fall off?



## aclassicalpaint (Feb 11, 2015)

I've been wondering if horses feel bad when we fall off because of a fall I had about a year and a half ago. I'm also curious about everyone else's opinion on this subject 

This was my first (and only) fall off my mare and it was totally preventable. My mare had been on stall rest for 8 months from a suspensory injury. It was her 3rd or 4th ride back and she had been good, just understandably hot. For some reason, I thought it would be okay to ride when it was pitch black, windy, and cold. :icon_rolleyes:

On the second lap around the arena, we were going past a corner when she tensed up, stopped, and looked over to the side at something (her version of a spook). Before I had the chance to make her walk on, all that pent up energy got to her brain and she took off at a gallop. I stayed on for a few strides before she suddenly was not under me anymore. She went to the left and I went to the right. So she really didn't even throw me, and I did not blame her one bit. The thing that upset me about the situation was she kept galloping around the arena and I couldn't catch her. I was terrified she would injure herself even further and just kept yelling her name because I wanted her to at least slow down. After maybe 5 minutes my mom and I cornered her. But as I tend to land on my head, I had a slight concussion and didn't feel safe walking her back to the cross ties. By this time, the BO came up (my screams were loud I guess...oops), took her, and untacked her for me.

Thankfully, she was fine and the ligament had no unusual swelling or heat. However, I couldn't ride her for 2 months. I mean, she wouldn't even let me mount. She had no issues at the mounting block but every time I went to get on, she would move away just enough. She just seemed distant, too. I feel like she felt guilty that I fell. To make sure she wasn't just scared from the incident, I had my trainer ride her. She stood still to be mounted and rode around normally. 

After a while, she let me get on her and she tries so hard to keep me safe now. I've ridden her out on the trail when her biggest fear (motorcycles) went by and she didn't bat an eye. I've ridden her double bareback, both as the "driver" and "passenger." When I first tried trotting bareback I almost slid off and she planted her feet. With other people, she will kick out if they annoy her too much :lol:

Has anyone else had falls where your horse felt bad afterwards? :falloff:


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

From the outsiders point of view I'm guessing that it wasn't guilt that was getting to your mare, but recovering from you screaming at her when she was already wound up......just guessing. Glad you weren't to badly hurt.

I don't know if a horse feels guilt, but IF they do, the horse that put me in intensive care did not feel one bit of guilt, he meant to get me off, it worked, and he did exactly the same thing to the next person who tried to get on him.

My current mare, so far when she has spooked, my trainer tells me she is careful to keep under me, so far so good, we are staying together!


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

No, I don't think they feel bad, per say. Some may be scared, either because they didn't know a person could fall off, how the person fell off, or if they are afraid of being reprimanded. I think other may take it as a "Ok, what's next". I've got a video of my WB bucking me off. I blew his mind by accident and he exploded. As soon as I hit the ground the pressure was off of him and he was able to relax so he came over to me to see what were doing next. If we were to anthropomorphize it would appear that he was seeing if I was ok, but really he's just a pocket pony.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't think they feel guilt at all. I do think if they aren't used to someone coming off of them, it can scare them stupid and make them really reluctant to let that person near. Today when I came off my horse, I know he was scared before I came off and I think he was TERRIFIED when I did bail out. He wouldn't let me near him for the rest of the time he was out. By Monday when I go to visit him I expect he'll be fine, but he's a newly broken 2 year old and he's never had anyone come off, so I know that was nerve wracking.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

The couple times I have come off my young horse (she spooked sideways, I stayed in the same place, essentially), which were certainly the first times anyone has ever done so, she seemed more puzzled than anything else. She just stood there looking at me. I don't think she felt guilty at all (for what? being momentarily frightened of something?), she just realized something out of the routine had happened and was stumped as to what to do next. I just got back on and continued what we were doing before and she relaxed and picked it back up. 

I bet that if I'd been locked up for weeks, taken out on a dark cold windy night, lost my rider because I was feeling excited and frisky, and then, while I was galloping about feeling the wind in my mane, my former rider started screaming and screaming and screaming and finally chased me down and cornered me, I would feel wary of that person and hopeful to escape a repeat of that experience. I feel morally certain that screaming at a horse does not fill them with remorse. It simply fills them with alarm.

I do not think that guilt is an emotion horses feel at all. They can feel worried about consequences, and if they have affection for someone they can feel concern if that person is in obvious distress, but guilt implies an abstract moral sense far beyond them. They are more simply constructed than that.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't think they feel guilty. Most of the time they just find a nice patch of weeds and start grazing. BUT, I did have a cool incident once.

I was riding my second horse, an Arabian gelding, out on the trail with a saddle that didn't fit him properly. I let him gallop up a hill (my idea of fun when I was about 20 years younger) and I ducked to miss a branch and the saddle slid sideways. I was hanging onto his side for a matter of seconds like a monkey when I thought I had better let go, because it's not like I was able to climb back on top of him. So I dropped off and bounced along in the gravel until I came to a stop. It hurt!

So I wasn't able to get up right away because I was in pain and I didn't know if I had been injured. You know that minute or so where you roll around in agony wondering if you've been badly injured? Well that's where I was at. Well, Mr. Arabian was known for running off and leaving you if you so much as dropped his reins. I had never actually come off him before, but he'd gotten away a time or two out on the trail and always ran home. 

Here's what blew my mind. He stayed with me! I couldn't believe it. The horse that I always expected to leave me for dead stayed with me until I was able to get up and collect him. I would have never expected it, especially since I didn't get up to retrieve him right away.

I had a huge bruise and was sore for a while but I felt bonded with that horse after that. Never would I imagine him to stay with me if I fell off. That was just not his style. And he did. I felt really close to him after that. It ended up being a good experience.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

No. Horses are not people. The ability to feel guilt isn't part of their makeup.


----------



## aclassicalpaint (Feb 11, 2015)

I believe horses feel most human emotions, but I know that's not a popular opinion! 
She could've just been slightly traumatized - hence this question  And I really don't ever yell at my horses lol. I was out of it. Screaming around horses is actually a HUGE no-no for me.


----------



## JulieG (Jun 25, 2013)

I don't think they feel guilty, but they definitely know something is up!

The few times I've come off I've always looked up to a 'What on earth are you doing down THERE?' sort of look on their faces which generally gets me laughing and over it as it's never been their fault. Not sure they can put two and two together!


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I do not think they feel guilt. 

I witnessed horses spook when the rider comes off, it startles them. And, I've witnessed horses become curious when the rider is on the ground and go up to them. But, I do not think it was to apologize.

I agree the accident was avoidable. The mare could have behaved like she probably knows to do. I'm glad you were not hurt worse.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

horses main emotional state is fear. let's say, that fear is a huge motivator for them. if you come off, it's scary to them because of all the pulls on the saddle, and balance all over the place, and perhaps your leg hitting them on the way down, and then the screaming and all. and, that they lost emotional balance.

they remember a fearful experience and link the whole thing together, so maybe your getting on makes the hrose remember that YOU were last associated with a bad feeling , so they start to feel bad again. fear.


----------



## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

Guilt? No. I don't think they usually know it was "their fault." (The exceptions being the ones that intentionally buck riders off, but that's not the subject here.)

Confusion? Often. I've certainly gotten the "what are you doing down there?" look several times.

Fear? Certainly possible. Especially when a fall follows a spook. The rider should be a horse's security blanket. If the leaf-monster takes the security, it's double scary.

Humor? Sometimes. I swear my horse once laughed when my friend nearly fell off of her. Friend said "whoa" without really meaning it. Horse stopped, friend almost didn't.


----------



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Didn't read the replies but here's my take- I don't think they feel guilt, but I do think some horses really do take care of their rider. I'm not sure about your situation, but I've had a situation where I swear my horse really knew, and really cared. 

I was riding last year bareback on our old draft horse. He was lazy and didn't watch his feet. He would pretty much fall asleep on the trail and just plod along. 

We hit a patch of mud at a lope and he flipped over. I don't know if it was sticky mud, or what but I landed on my back with the wind knocked out of me and the first thing I saw was 1900 pounds of horse coming upside down at me. I rolled, and rolled and rolled and when I got up he was on his back where I was laying with all four feet in the air. He was stiff, and I thought he broke his back. When I stood up and said his name he looked at me, relaxed, flopped to the side, grunted and got up. He was extremely careful on the way back, picking his feet up carefully and moving crazy smooth. I was hurting, and had extreme bruising but he took care of me. I got off at the door and just went in, and when I came out he was still standing at the door. He's the kind of horse that when you let him go, he's GONE. 

I don't know if it was the mood, or what but he KNEW something was up that day.


----------



## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I've had a few horses that showed remorse when they've done something to hurt me but most of them could give a crap less. I had a gelding buck me off hard one time and he showed a kinda depressed demeanor for a while afterwards. He never in his life threw that kind of bucking at me again even though I could feel from the nervous energy in his body that he sometimes wanted to. I think some are more sensitive to their owners feelings than others are so they can pick up the feeling that they did something wrong. 

Sorry, but I have a story about that same gelding that goes with the idea that horses do have feelings.

Years ago I had this old farrier and any of you with horses knows that farriers are probably about the most pragmatic of any horse professional. This particular gelding had a lot of personality and one day he snatched this farriers hat. Farrier yelled at him. The gelding is standing there hanging his head, nose wrinkled up, and just being listless. Farrier asked me what was wrong with him and I told him that he hurt the gelding's feeling when he yelled at him. I got a few choice words for making that statement along with telling me that horses don't have feelings like that and I had been around them long enough that I ought to know that. I just shrugged my shoulders. He shoes another foot and the gelding is still pouting and by now it's really getting to the farrier so he pets him and offers his hat. The gelding took it and then dropped it on the ground, farrier put it back on his head and the gelding was happy again. After that every time the farrier came he would let that gelding take his hat and drop it and if it was summer and he was wearing a ball cap when he arrived he'd have his cowboy hat in the truck so that he could put it on long enough for that gelding to be able to take it off of him. He told all of his clients about the horse that would pout unless he let him steal his hat. LOL I think by the time that farrier retired he loved that horse as much as I did. Even when I moved further away than what he liked to travel he told me he was still coming out because he wasn't going to let another farrier mess him up.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

when I came off the most recent time, when X tripped and went to his knees and chucked me off, then left me and started to head for home, and I chased after and found him standing alone , confused, unhappy in the trail, with the reins hanging down. . . . was he remorseful? of course not. he was just scared and uncomfortable to be alone in the woods. when he saw me, it was a toss up for a minute between him remembering negative things associated with our fall and him feeling relief to have the thing he KNOWS back at hand. he chose the latter, I got the reins, and we made it all well again. see? fear is the world of the horse, and whatever they find to be the greatest haven from fear is where they will go. that he chose ME was a great compliment from a prey animal.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I had a big hunter that was very problematic when he first came to me. He had done his best to drop me but with no success. 
As he came to thinking along the same lines as me I could pony another horse from him. 
One day I was leading a young mare from him and both of them were acting like idiots. Very full of themselves despite the fact they had both had a good day Foxhunting the day before, 

I was riding along a very sloppy muddy track at a canter, as I started to slow down the mare bit him on his side and he stopped dead and brought his back end up in objection. I was sitting down and he caught me on the butt. I went straight into a handstand on his neck landing on my feet, facing him. 
The expression on his face was one I will never forget, he was so surprised to see me there. It was as if to say, "all I did to get you off and I didn't even really buck!"


----------



## Werecat (Aug 23, 2015)

I went trail riding with a boarder from the last stable I boarded at, and he guided us down an unsafe, rocky, damp path to get to a different area he wanted to ride. Before I could say "I'm going to turn my horse around, I don't feel safe", Bear's back legs slid out from underneath him, and we both went down. All I could think about was "He's going to crush my leg against these rocks", so as I was going down (it was on a slope), I flung myself away from him. As I was doing that, he rolled himself in the opposite direction away from me. He got up first, but stood still waiting for me to get up, watching. Once I was up, he stood perfectly still waiting for me to get up and check myself as well as him over. I was terrified he hurt his legs but he was okay. I then walked him back up the path. When we got back to a safe area, I mounted and he continued on just fine. The other boarder was stunned my horse didn't leave me because he knew though my horse wasn't green under saddle, he had limited trail experience before I got him. Now, he's the best trail horse I could've ever hoped for. 

My theory is they don't feel guilt, but they are sentient beings and understand danger. My horse comes to a slow stop if he feels me losing my balance for whatever reason. This is something that wasn't taught, he just does it. I think being herd animals, you somewhat become part of the herd and they do what they can to do their part in keeping you safe. Will they jump out in front of a moving bus to save your life? No, I don't think so. But in a situation where you are riding and lose your balance and they aren't in fight or flight mode (like your mare was), I think some horses will do what they need to, to not break away from the "herd".


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Guilt is not a feeling, it is a thought. A complicated thought about how one should have behaved, the moral consequences, one's responsibilities to others, to the universe, to oneself. It has emotions attached to it -- sadness, disappointment, fear -- but mostly it is a thought.

Anyone who isn't a total moron knows horses have emotions. A wide variety of them. And they think too -- about stuff like how to avoid being afraid and how to make pleasant things happen again. Brighter horses are also curious and experimental, and some horses clearly have a sense of humor (love the hat story). But they do not have complex abstract thoughts. This is something human beings are continually falling into the trap of believing. It makes you a bad trainer when you do that, because you are ascribing incorrect motives. 

People do this with dogs in spades. Makes me want to bite them.


----------



## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Avna said:


> The couple times I have come off my young horse (she spooked sideways, I stayed in the same place, essentially), which were certainly the first times anyone has ever done so, she seemed more puzzled than anything else. She just stood there looking at me. I don't think she felt guilty at all (for what? being momentarily frightened of something?), she just realized something out of the routine had happened and was stumped as to what to do next. I just got back on and continued what we were doing before and she relaxed and picked it back up.
> 
> I bet that if I'd been locked up for weeks, taken out on a dark cold windy night, lost my rider because I was feeling excited and frisky, and then, while I was galloping about feeling the wind in my mane, my former rider started screaming and screaming and screaming and finally chased me down and cornered me, I would feel wary of that person and hopeful to escape a repeat of that experience. I feel morally certain that screaming at a horse does not fill them with remorse. It simply fills them with alarm.
> 
> I do not think that guilt is an emotion horses feel at all. They can feel worried about consequences, and if they have affection for someone they can feel concern if that person is in obvious distress, but guilt implies an abstract moral sense far beyond them. They are more simply constructed than that.



I think a horse accustomed to a securely seated rider can get rattled when the rider tumbles off and horses can show some concern for a person that is injured. I was on a trail ride and knocked unconscious when my horse fell. I came to with him standing over me and nudging me. I appreciated that, and the fact that he basically "carried" me home since I was barely able to ride. I am sure it had nothing to do with guilt although it did happen because he deliberately bolted.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes horses experience emotion. But it is not the same type of emotion that humans feel. Horses are not humans, and likewise humans are not horses. Most of the horse's way is based on natural instinct and that "fight or flight" response. 

Guilt? No, horses do not feel guilt. They don't have the complex mental capacity to think about how their actions can affect another individual, and dwell on that thought. 

They can absolutely feel fear. And they can have positive and negative reactions to situations. But guilt is not something I would use to describe those reactions.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have seen a pony in the indoor arena leaning against the kick boards, standing on two legs to avoid treading on a disabled rider that had slipped off her. 

I have had ponies act very guilty when they have dropped their rider and others that just don't care.


----------



## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I don't think horses feel guilt about things the way people do, some horses are sure surprised when a rider comes off wondering just what happened and why are you down there? Others deliberately try to dump you and they sure have no guilt.
I had a young colt I raised and when I watched him cavorting about spinning and wheeling and bucking in the paddock, I would ask myself "are you really planning on climbing on that boy?" He was so agile and quick. He was the easiest colt I ever started, loved going out.

One day when he was just three and pretty green, I was riding around the farm on a really windy day and as we came trotting along the back fence a box flipped up out of the long grass just about in his face and he went sideways so fast and I was hanging down his side, he stopped and didn't move (if he had breathed hard I would have been on the ground) and he just stood there while I managed to heave myself back into the saddle, he turned and looked at me and I could swear he said "sorry, didn't mean to knock you off". If I had come off him I don't think he would have felt guilty probably more surprised.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> No. Horses are not people. The ability to feel guilt isn't part of their makeup.


And just how do you know this, exactly? You read animal minds or something? 

I can't know for certain what horses are really feeling, any more than I can know what other humans are really feeling. I can only judge by how they act. Having fallen off several horses in different circumstances, I can confidently say that their reactions vary, from "Oh boy, I can run half a mile away and graze in the meadow!", to "What the heck did you do that for?". Mind you, this was two incidents with the same horse  Another horse - one that I've known since he was a two year old - reacted with more evidence of concern than the humans I was riding with did.

Horses, just like humans, are individuals, and react in different ways. Some give every outward evidence of caring about their riders, or humans they've associated with. Others don't appear to.

FTM, not all humans experience the same set of emotions in the same ways. I personally have never really understood guilt or jealousy, for instance.


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Guilt is a response stemming from moral transgressions. Horses have morals only in the sense of social behaviors that are inclusive to their herd. They will act certain ways to maintain their safety and harmony in the herd. But those are not morals in the sense of what humans experience.

They can exhibit learned behaviour thay we recognize as guilt, as shown in canine cognitive behavioral studies.

Guilt requires a level of higher cognitive capabilities that horses have not been shown to have.

Anthromorphism, however, is a very real concept.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ApuetsoT said:


> Guilt requires a level of higher cognitive capabilities that horses have not been shown to have.
> 
> Anthromorphism, however, is a very real concept.


Absolutely, seems to be a growing problem


----------



## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

I still don't think horses have guilt.

I do think they can show concern. A mare certainly shows concern for her foal. I think some horses show concern for their riders. How far that concern goes is any body's guess. Some horses are better at keeping a rider on their backs than others. Some others think a fall comes with a free one-way ticket home to graze.


----------



## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Feel bad? No. wondering what the heck happened? Sure.


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Not sure about guilt, but a long-ago friend had a mustang that would do everything in his power to keep a rider ON. We used to joke that who ever was the most drunk would ride the mustang. It was the surest way to ensure that person got back to the stables. We used to purposely try to slide sideways OFF that horse and he would side step/dip to put you back on center!


----------



## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

I doubt horses feel any guilt when a rider has a ground check, but many will either circle back to the rider or immediately stop. The last time my mare and I departed company, she circled back to me and softly put her nose on the hip I landed on. Other's thought that was really cute, but I knew she was checking to make sure her treats were still in that pocket!


----------



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but I think it's more likely the "concern" we're seeing after falling is more concern over getting in trouble for what just happened rather than concern for the safety of the rider.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Horses have a highly developed sense of "how it is supposed to feel/look like", which goes into alarm mode when something changes or is somehow off. This is something prey animals need to have; anything different means a potentially dangerous situation for them. They always want to get back to a feeling of harmony and safety.

A lot of the different reactions horses have to a rider falling off can be explained using only that fact. A rider falls off, it is both startling and different than what they have learned is a safe mode (i.e. rider staying on). Horses pick up on emotions of humans very easily so if you are hurt or shaken they might react to your emotion as well as their own. Immediately grazing may look indifferent but horses calm themselves down by grazing. Running for home may seem heartless but maybe the best idea they could come up with to return to equilibrium was to get back to a familiar friendly location. 

Whether a horse comes over and sniffs you and waits for you to get up, is going to be a confluence of the horse's personality, the scariness of the event, and of course your relationship -- do they seek you for reassurance? 

It is an Occam's Razor type of thing, so often useful when attributing motives to animals. Occam's Razor, or the Law of Parsimony, essentially states that, among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. In other words, stick to the simplest explanation that accounts for all the data. It is probably the right one.


----------



## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

I think it's possible for horses to feel guilt. I also think it's possible for a horse to feel as though he needs to take care of you. I say this because Maverick and Dixie don't really slow down or stop- as far as I can tell- when I get off balance or start to fall. However, Pistol often slows down or stops for me when I go off balance while we are bareback riding. He's very considerate, and I think he's trying to look out for me. 
I also believe they can feel trust.
Pistol and I have this thing where I trust his intuition (for instance, if he really, REALLY doesn't want to do something, I know
Something is wrong and I don't force him. That's not to say I let him get away with being stubborn, I can tell the difference) and he trusts me to judge whether or not his intuition is correct. It's why we get along.

You all probably think I'm a fruit loop or that it's all in my head. And maybe it is. But it feels like it's real. It feels like he actually cares about my wellbeing.

And don't tell me horses don't care about their owners. Maybe your guys' horses don't care about you... But I truly believe mine does. I wish he could just tell me, but maybe that's what he's trying to do.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

LilyandPistol said:


> Maybe your guys' horses don't care about you... But I truly believe mine does. I wish he could just tell me, but maybe that's what he's trying to do...


Yeah, but if your horse could talk the way humans do, he could lie about it, just like a lot of humans do. As in "Hey, if I tell Mom I love her, she'll give me a cookie"  

As far as horses feeling bad, there are a lot of bad feelings other than guilt. As for instance if I fall off, I may feel embarrassed because of my poor riding, I might be concerned about the horse whose stumble caused the fall, I might even be angry at the horse. But I don't think guilt would ever come into it. So why should the horse feel guilty?


----------



## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

One time I was riding and it was Feb. and Feb in Ontario can be pretty cold. I was crossing a stream and my horse got hung up on some rocks and started to scrabble around then he turned and made a huge leap back out of the stream and on to the bank. I came A$$ over teakettle out the back and into the water.

All I could see of my horse was the tail end as he disappeared up the trail. I climbed out of the water and was sitting on a rock emptying water out of my boots, wondering which would be the best way to get home and I heard a noise behind me, it was my horse coming back and was I glad to see him.
Now we were over a mile from the barn but he knew the trails and the way home very well and still he came back. 
Now why did he come back? I don't think he felt guilty but he must have been unsure about going home alone. I knew he was angry with me because when I walked up to him and petted him for being such a good boy, then when I got on him to start back, he gave three good bucks (this horse never bucked before or after that day) and then we proceeded back to the barn.


----------



## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I've had and seen horses that would side step to "catch" a rider slipping. My thoughts on that are it's possible for the horse to try to care for an inexperienced rider, but I also believe that if they slow down, move over, or otherwise try to keep us in the saddle it's to their benefit. Cant be very comfortable to have an adult size individual hanging off your side. 

That said, I wonder if they don't want to go home alone because they're herd animals and that would be uncomfortable for them. Besides, who's going to open the gate?


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

In my opinion it boils down to temperament not an emotion or feeling like guilt would be associated with.

Some are "kind" and won't run off but rather stand there, stare at you and stand patiently while you roll around in the dirt feeling sorry for yourself then finally wallow back on top of him.

Then there is what I call "opportunists". They take advantage of a situation. You might step a little harder in a stirrup and he might take that as an opportunity to duck out from underneath the opposite side, kick you on the way out and run off leaving you to foot back it home. 

And of course there are varying degrees in between.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

In spite of what movies and such try to make people believe, horses don't feel guilt in the human sense. It sounds to me like your mare got freaked out, and you taking a spill freaked her out more. All that time off coupled with a bad set of circumstances created a perfect recipe for a traumatized horse. After some time to get over the trauma, she's back to her normal thinking self instead of the reacting creature of fear she was that night.

I take great pains in their early training to teach a horse to freeze when I start to slide off the side or when I get off at any gait. Of course, no training is every 100% solid, but that has saved my butt more times than I can count. A horse learns best what they learn first and if you condition a reaction enough, it will often take over even in a moment of panic and they will react as they were trained to.


----------



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Reading through replies, I had another thought. I used to spend a lot of time in the woods with my father and one horse who hauled logs. After half a year or so, we were what that gelding would consider his herd. We could eat lunch and leave him loose to graze, camp out the night and leave him loose to find him still close in the morning. He didn't want to leave us because we were the herd. The same goes for Trouble. I spend a lot of time in unfamiliar places with just him. If I fell off he wouldn't really go anywhere because 1. He has nowhere to go, and 2. If his "herd mates" fell down (closest example I can get to falling off) he wouldn't just run away, he would stand and examine the situation to see what's going on. 

On the contrary, another one of our horses is a flighty freak and the littlest thing sets him into a blind gallop away from what scared him. Our old mare fell down a sand bank a year ago and landed at his feet and he ran all the way into the barn before peeking out to see what was going on. Trouble on the other hand, walked over to her out of curiosity.


----------



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Going to add: I also still don't think they feel guilt. We had a mare who kicked our filly in the face and fractures her nasal bones and crushed her nasal cavity. They had to thread a tube through her nose to open the passage. That mare saw her, a 20 month old little filly standing with blood running out of her nose, and went right back at her. 
I even felt guilty, I didn't even do anything for her. She was a sight for sore eyes but we had to separate them permanently. There was something about her that older mare didn't like.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> We had a mare who kicked our filly in the face and fractures her nasal bones and crushed her nasal cavity. They had to thread a tube through her nose to open the passage. That mare saw her, a 20 month old little filly standing with blood running out of her nose, and went right back at her.


One horse is not all horses, just like one human is not all humans. I'm sure you are aware that there are humans who'd happily do the same thing to human children - even their own children - and never show evidence of feeling the least bit of guilt. (Unless they need to put on a show of remorse at a trial, of course.)


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LilyandPistol said:


> And don't tell me horses don't care about their owners. Maybe your guys' horses don't care about you... But I truly believe mine does. I wish he could just tell me, but maybe that's what he's trying to do.



What do you mean "don't tell you" 

You can believe what ever you like, but does not make you right.

My mare does she like me and care for me, up until now I would say "heck NO' bought her last September, she boards I see her a couple of times a week if I am lucky, the last couple of weeks I would say she is starting to interact with me, rather than ignore me, but maybe that is because I have cookies.

She does, and always has been careful when spooking though, when things go south, as they often have, she has stayed under me, when as trainer pointed out she could of dumped me.

I do believe that horses and riders come to an understanding, but far to often it is the rider who believes that there is some sort of special bond between them.....

If horses could talk, wouldn't it be fun interviewing them before buying?


----------



## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Horses are not dogs and they are prey animals so to think that a horse may care about you is along the lines of anthropomorphizing them---horses do not have human traits. While horse will recognize those people in their lives that feed, train, ride, work with, and care for them, they don't form the attachment that a dog or cat does with an owner. All our horses nicker a greeting as soon as I walk out the back door, come in to see what I'm doing when working around the barn, have learned good manners and respect my leadership, but I highly doubt that if my life was threatened by a predator, any one of them would come to my rescue like a dog. 


When I've departed company with my horse, I figure the horse either stops and waits for me to get up or circles back to me simply because I'm the constant in their life, especially when we're on a trail ride far from home. I also don't believe the horse has remorse or feels guilt, but is more curious and confused by me being on the ground instead of in the saddle. Horses only have a limited ability to reason the what, why, how, when, and where if something unexpected happens nor do they have the emotional attachment that humans do. My horse like me and appreciate me because I see that they are fed, have a clean stall to loaf in, make sure their stock tank is full, and go out of the way to meet their physical needs while ensuring that their mental needs are met to by providing a safe pasture where they have buddies, but they don't "love" me or truly have an emotional attachment to me since hubby can do the chores too and they really don't care that I wasn't there.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Prairie said:


> ...horses do not have human traits.


How do you know this? And why do you think that liking, attachment, or all those other emotional things are exclusively human traits?

From a purely anatomical point of view, horses (like other large mammals) and humans have a good deal in common. They have the same basic structure, a complex central nervous system (far more complex than that of reptiles of similar size) with similar patterns of activity, the same glands producing the same sorts of emotion-mediating hormones, and so on. 

Given this degree of similarity, applying Occam's Razor certainly suggests to me that the observed outward appearance of emotional behaviors reflects inward reality at least as much as with humans.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Horses certainly have emotions, but they're not HUMAN emotions. Nobody said horses don't feel the range of emotions, so I'm not sure why you're getting your panties so twisted. 

As far as 'proof', please talk to professionals as well as do some research. There's plenty of information concerning how animals think and feel. It's a large field of study, and still ongoing. 

Animals simply do not think and respond like humans because they're NOT human. Yes, they can feel affection, but their instincts are to look to a strong, respected leader who will keep them safe. Whether or not they feel affection for that leader is immaterial. 

Those of you attributing human emotions and moral values on horses are doing them a grave disservice. You need to treat them like horses, not furry people who walk on four legs. 

It's usually the noobs who want to think their horsies wuv them. Those of us who have had them many decades know to treat them as the important companions they are, but never forget that they're not human, don't think like humans, and are large prey animals who rely on instinct most of the time.

I also worry about a human being who doesn't understand guilt. The inability to feel certain emotions is the mark of a sociopath.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I am also in mind that animals have emotions, but not what I would call feeling those emotions as humans do.

There was probably a time when humans understood animals better than we do now, even with studies, because we were deeply woven into the natural world.

Today we have insulated and shrouded ourselves way from the natural world. Hungry? Go to the grocery store. Need clothes? Go to Marshals and buy some. Hot? Turn on the AC. Cold? Turn on the heat. We don't live in small cluster of tribes or clans or family units where the wisdom and strength of a strong leader was needed to direct the daily lives of those living within that unit. Daily we have no need for a strong leader. We go about our daily lives without much fear of whether we will survive the day.

Animals in herd, pack, or flock situations need that strong leader to survive. Now, I have never been in combat, but I would much rather be led by a strong leader who was decisive than a wishy washy person who was trying to win a popularity contest. I will respect and admire and even love the person who could keep me from dying.

The words, love, respect, and admire, are human terms for the emotions we feel, and the only terms I can use because I am just a puny human. But, are horses that much different in terms of wanting to survive? I don't think so, they just don't have human language to express it.

Guilt? I am not sure about that one. Do they feel guilty if being chased by a pack of predators and the old or young cannot keep up with the herd and are consumed? I don't think guilt is a term they can even comprehend. Guilt is based on a believe of wrong doing. And I think that is a very complexed human emotion. Would my horse feel guilty because he ran faster than your horse and your horse was eaten? No he survived the temporary danger to live another day. 

Oh well, that became long winded. And I am not gifted in the art of writing, so I hope it makes some sense!


----------



## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

*Sarah*, very well said


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Guilt - no. My mare felt no remorse when she kicked me in the chin and almost broke my jaw. She trotted a few feet away and, seeing I was still standing, dropped her face into the grass and went back to grazing. 

Was she upset that I was bleeding profusely when I caught her? A little. But then, my blood might attract a predator. She willingly followed me to her little paddock (safety), though.

My mare is one that will nicker when she hears my truck in the driveway, even if it isn't feeding time. My gelding "helps" out with the chores and is generally as 'underfoot' as it is possible for a 900 lb animal to be. I won't say they love me, but they do know, and recognize, me.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I guess that humans keep trying to put human thoughts and emotions on animals, because we are unable to understand theirs. Same as we, at one time were set on teaching chimps to communicate in our language, I don't remember any experiments where we tried to learn Chimp!

Thing is each species is uniquely beautiful and different, and I think it is somewhat arrogant to believe that they think as we do.


----------



## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I do believe that horses have emotions just not quite the same as humans and if we can understand how it works and feels for them we can have a better understanding of horses.
As far as likes and dislikes I'm sure they have that.
My first horse I spent a great deal of time with, seven days a week, and I rode him everywhere, every time the Farrier came to reset and trim he had to put new shoes on as we wore them right off. This horse sure worked a lot harder for me than at any other time of his life.
I did have to sell him (broke my heart) because of health and financial issues but after several months I contacted the new owners to see if I could come to see him. When we got there he was out in the field with the other horses and the person said that he was hard to catch. THis horse was never hard to catch when I had him. My Mother said "oh my daughter can get him no problem" so I took a rope and limped out into the field, I called out to him from some distance away, he lifted his head and was watching and I called again and he came running across the field to me. I was tempted to loop the rope around his neck and hop up on him and ride back which is what I would do when he was mine but decided to just lead him back. The owner was surprised that he came as they had to catch all the other horses before they could get him.
Was this affection or love from him or just a memory of coming to me from before? I don't know but he did remember me.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Horses have great memories Woodhaven, so I'm sure that he remembered you quite well. Was there affection? Most likely, especially since you spent so much time with him before you had to sell him. But there was also a good deal of respect and trust, and that's more important to have than affection when it comes to horses.


If you want complete and utter devotion, get a dog. They're the only creatures on earth who will love you even more than you love yourself.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Horses certainly have emotions, but they're not HUMAN emotions. Nobody said horses don't feel the range of emotions, so I'm not sure why you're getting your panties so twisted.


Certainly a number of people - including you - have said things that I interpret as saying that horses don't feel emotions. Now if I misread what you intended to say, I apologize 

Of course horses don't (pretty much by definition, no?) have human emotions, just as humans don't have horse emotions. But there's a considerable overlap: just as with food, humans can eat some things that horses can't, and vice versa. But there are a lot of things - e.g. carrots  that we both can enjoy.



> As far as 'proof', please talk to professionals as well as do some research.


Well, I'm not exactly writing from a position of total ignorance here, having spent a decade or so working in computational neurobiology. Though I grant I'm more familiar with things at the dendrite & synapse level than hormonal stuff.



> Animals simply do not think and respond like humans because they're NOT human. Yes, they can feel affection, but their instincts are to look to a strong, respected leader who will keep them safe. Whether or not they feel affection for that leader is immaterial.


Paid much attention to human politics and religion lately? 'Cause that's a good descrption of IMHO all too many humans.



> You need to treat them like horses, not furry people who walk on four legs.


Sure, but the other side of that is treating horses like some sort of motorcycle that runs on hay instead of gasoline. Both are wrong.




> I also worry about a human being who doesn't understand guilt. The inability to feel certain emotions is the mark of a sociopath.


Whereas I don't understand people who, knowing that doing something would make them feel guilty, would go ahead and do it anyway. Or "guilt-free" food, with 2.1 million hits on Google  Or some authority telling us that certain things ought to make us feel guilty, as for instance this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/06/philadelphia-catholic-church-rules-divorce-gay-sex If society can take people like him seriously, I think I'd prefer being a sociopath


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Woodhaven said:


> I do believe that horses have emotions just not quite the same as humans and if we can understand how it works and feels for them we can have a better understanding of horses.
> As far as likes and dislikes I'm sure they have that.
> My first horse I spent a great deal of time with, seven days a week, and I rode him everywhere, every time the Farrier came to reset and trim he had to put new shoes on as we wore them right off. This horse sure worked a lot harder for me than at any other time of his life.
> I did have to sell him (broke my heart) because of health and financial issues but after several months I contacted the new owners to see if I could come to see him. When we got there he was out in the field with the other horses and the person said that he was hard to catch. THis horse was never hard to catch when I had him. My Mother said "oh my daughter can get him no problem" so I took a rope and limped out into the field, I called out to him from some distance away, he lifted his head and was watching and I called again and he came running across the field to me. I was tempted to loop the rope around his neck and hop up on him and ride back which is what I would do when he was mine but decided to just lead him back. The owner was surprised that he came as they had to catch all the other horses before they could get him.
> Was this affection or love from him or just a memory of coming to me from before? I don't know but he did remember me.


I leased a horse just like that. Everyday was a toss up of he'd let me catch him. He had been given to the BO 4 or 5 years ago, yet one day when the old owner came to visit she whistled and he came running up from the back field.


----------



## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

My mare will come to me when I have a halter in my hand. She will follow me around like a puppy when I'm wondering around "the horse" area doing chores. She has even "given me hugs" on many occasions. Once she went out of her way to make sure I didn't get kicked. Caveat? I've been the first person in her life to treat her kindly. I've also been the first person to discipline with a reasonable hand. She knows her boundaries. She knows the rules and they never change. She also knows I won't let the dogs attack her, and that I treat wounds as kindly as possible. (she still won't let me stick that dewormer tube in her mouth). She gets fed quality feed on a regular schedule (more or less). She has fresh water and a good scratch daily.

Love? Devotion? I doubt it. I believe she has emotions more equivalent to "like" and "acceptance". For a prey animal that's as good as it gets I believe. I've been a strong leader that she knows will keep her safe and never ask more than she can give me. Therefore, when I'm riding alone I trust her implicitly . She has detected danger long before I could and avoided it. I was protected only because I stuck in the saddle! I make no mistake that she wouldn't have left my sorry a$$ laying there if I'd fallen. Maybe she would have come back later, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Honestly, I believe horses feel "love and devotion" but on a different level than we humans do. They are prey animals and we are predators. The entire thought process is different. A mare will protect her foal to the best of her ability. But when that youngster is of a certain age the mare knows that life is a circle that continues to turn. Humans continue to "love and devote" time and energy to our young for many many years. 

The same, but different.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Blue said:


> They are prey animals and we are predators.


You might want to consult your local mountain lion, grizzly bear, or whatever happens to be the apex predator in your area about that second point, 'cause humans have had a lot of evolutionary experience* being prey. Remember Hobbes' answer to the reason for human existence? "Tiger food".

*OK, so most of our actual ancestors were those who managed NOT to become prey, but still, we carry the genetic memory of crouching in the cave while something with teeth prowled outside. (What do YOU feel when you're walking in the woods at night, and something growls?) Wasn't until our ancestors developed spears and such that they could become predators.


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

jamesqf said:


> You might want to consult your local mountain lion, grizzly bear, or whatever happens to be the apex predator in your area about that second point, 'cause humans have had a lot of evolutionary experience* being prey. Remember Hobbes' answer to the reason for human existence? "Tiger food".
> 
> *OK, so most of our actual ancestors were those who managed NOT to become prey, but still, we carry the genetic memory of crouching in the cave while something with teeth prowled outside. (What do YOU feel when you're walking in the woods at night, and something growls?) Wasn't until our ancestors developed spears and such that they could become predators.


Humans are the apex predator. Its kind of our signature move to invade an area and kill everything there.

Everything about how we are built is that of a predator, from how our eyes are positioned in our head, how we look at them, the structure of our face, how we move. It doesn't matter that the average person couldn't light a fire in a cave, you can't divorce us from our physiology.

My sister had a dog that wouldn't know how to hunt, does that means dogs aren't predators?


----------



## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

ApuetsoT said:


> Humans are the apex predator. Its kind of our signature move to invade an area and kill everything there.
> 
> Everything about how we are built is that of a predator, from how our eyes are positioned in our head, how we look at them, the structure of our face, how we move. It doesn't matter that the average person couldn't light a fire in a cave, you can't divorce us from our physiology.
> 
> My sister had a dog that wouldn't know how to hunt, does that means dogs aren't predators?


Well said


----------



## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

jamesqf said:


> You might want to consult your local mountain lion, grizzly bear, or whatever happens to be the apex predator in your area about that second point, 'cause humans have had a lot of evolutionary experience* being prey. Remember Hobbes' answer to the reason for human existence? "Tiger food".
> 
> *OK, so most of our actual ancestors were those who managed NOT to become prey, but still, we carry the genetic memory of crouching in the cave while something with teeth prowled outside. (What do YOU feel when you're walking in the woods at night, and something growls?) Wasn't until our ancestors developed spears and such that they could become predators.



Apparently you missed that there is a chain of predators, so the smaller, weaker predators become prey for the one who is larger, stronger. However there are prey who are non-meat eater so they do not crossover to the predator category, such as horses. Man is the apex predator-----nothing is safe when mankind takes over an area!


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I believe horses have all the emotions humans have -- grief, fear, elation, love, anger. But they don't have the same THOUGHTS we do. That's all. Humans tend to mix thoughts and emotions up. But they are different things. If you attribute a human thought to your horse, you are most likely wrong. 

My horse relies on me and trusts me. How do I know? By her actions. For example she was traumatized by a dragging lead rope (ran, stepped on it, fell badly), and now will freeze in a panic if her lead rope hits the ground. The only way she will move is if I walk alongside her, or call her over to me. Because she relies on me to make her feel safe in that situation. And I have other examples. But I don't think she has very complex thoughts about it. More like: when Avna's around to tell me what to do when I'm scared, nothing bad happens! More Avna for me! Just that basic.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

ApuetsoT said:


> Humans are the apex predator.


Only since we developed tools, which isn't all that long ago in evolutionary terms.



> Everything about how we are built is that of a predator, from how our eyes are positioned in our head, how we look at them, the structure of our face, how we move. It doesn't matter that the average person couldn't light a fire in a cave, you can't divorce us from our physiology.


Strange, then, that we share almost all of this physiology with fruit-eating monkeys  And our teeth are clearly the teeth of an omnivore: indeed, much more like a horse's teeth than those of a dog or cat, with molars to crush & grind plant foods, As you say, physiology.

As Prairie says, there's a chain of predators, or perhaps a net would be a better analogy. Pre-technical humans are somewhere in the middle: they'd kill & eat small animals, but were in turn hunted by larger ones. (Rather like outdoor cats hereabouts, which eat mice & birds, and are in turn eaten by coyotes.) See e.g. The Top Ten Deadliest Animals of Our Evolutionary Past | Science | Smithsonian for more. 

So horses and humans have a lot of shared (evolutionary) experience of being prey. The real difference, IMHO, is that horses evolved the ability to run away from most of their predators.


----------



## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Jamesqf, you make a lot of very good points.

I've always thought, that if you're going to err, giving horses (and other animals) "human traits" is probably more accurate than thinking they are completely alien.


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Our use of tools, and intelligence, is what makes us an apex predator. Tool use is what makes us distinct so you can't suddenly take them out of the picture. We were using tools since before we were homosapian..

What animal actively seeks out humans as their food of choice? Even back in the Paleolithic, we were never selectively hunted for food. We will selectively hint others though, that's makes us a predator(we've actually got the title of super predator).

Binocular vision is largely an adaptation by predators, this also allows us to create eye contact which prey animals react to. We also have aggressive, pushing natures.

Yah, we are omnivores. So are bears.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

jamesqf said:


> Strange, then, that we share almost all of this physiology with fruit-eating monkeys  And our teeth are clearly the teeth of an omnivore: indeed, much more like a horse's teeth than those of a dog or cat, with molars to crush & grind plant foods, As you say, physiology..


ah, but our closest relatives, chimpanzees, are known to be omnivores and will kill other monkeys. 

In the last 500 years human front teeth have altered, most people's teeth no longer close together but have a slightly undershot lower jaw. This is because we no longer tear meat with our teeth but use a knife and fork!


----------



## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Omnivore means the animal eats everything which includes both plants and meat/fish. Thus mankind is a predator in order to have meat for his meals. Certain apes and monkeys, our closest relatives genetically, are noted for hunting, killing, and eating other animals too.


You can also look at the size of the horse's brain compared to that of humans.......it's about the size of a grapefruit, leaving very little area for emotional thoughts since much of their brain is devoted to their sensory processes just to keep them safe from predators.


----------



## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

I think they feel flight, fight or curious. Sounds like your mare was in flight. When they manage to kick you on the way down (not accidentally or come back to stomp on you that would be fight. When they stand quietly by and look at you like, "Why did you do that?", that would be curious. _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Greenmeadows (May 8, 2016)

I do not know if horses feel bad or not after they dump you, but sometimes it seems like the ornery ones take a particular kind of glee in doing it.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Horses do not feel guilt. They simply do not have the higher cognitive functioning required to experience such a thought or emotion.


----------



## Filly515 (Jul 8, 2016)

I do believe horses feel guilt, contrary to what studies may show. My 6 year old takes riding lessons on a 22 year old retired show horse (qh). In one of his lessons, the horse spooked (just jumped sideways) and my son hit the ground flat on his back, crying once he got past the shock of hitting the ground from a 15.3h horse. I knew it was bound to happen at some point, everyone falls off sooner or later. I walked over, took his helmet off and brushed him off to check for any injuries (he was fine). The horse had already spun around and was nuzzling his head. The expression on his face was that of extreme guilt and concern. His owner/instructor said he was an emotional horse when he'd lose a rider. 

On another occasion shortly after, a friend of mine was riding my horse. She will be showing walk/trot since her horse isn't ready for the show ring yet. In 10 years, my 11 year old horse has bucked twice (looking back it was my own fault). But the last time was about 3 years ago. Well, she got sassy about another horse leaving the arena (which had never been an issue before) and bucked, HARD - throwing my friend to the ground. I was furious. I asked my friend if she was ok (later discovering she fractured her hip) and then went after my horse who immediately knew she was in trouble. I got on her and worked her hard for another 30 min or so, cooled her down, hosed her off and put her in her stall. She reached out for a treat since she always gets a treat after being worked and I sternly said "no". She dropped her head and I've honestly never seen such a guilty face. She knew what she did and knew it was not ok. 

Now, horses personalities are just as unique as people. While one may not care that he lost a rider, another might. But I strongly believe that horses can feel guilt - I've witnessed it first hand. They can feel happiness, sadness, stress, anger - how is guilt so far fetched?


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

ApuetsoT said:


> Our use of tools, and intelligence, is what makes us an apex predator.


True - as I said! - but tool use is recent in evolutionary terms. At least 99% of the 70 million years or so since the split between horse and human ancestors was spent without tools, making proto-humans very ineffective predators. Nor does the primate/human body plan really resemble that of any other predator, or have any absolute functional adaptation as a predator. (Some have argued that human ability for distance running is such an adaptation.)



> What animal actively seeks out humans as their food of choice?


"Food of choice" is pretty loaded, as a predator that limits itself to one main species of prey has locked itself into a pretty narrow evolutionary niche. But there are predators which, even now, seem to put humans on an equal footing with other prey species. Leopards, for one. For others, see the article I linked. 



> Binocular vision is largely an adaptation by predators...


In primates (and offhand, I think all primates have good binocular vision), it is an adaptation to living in trees. If you can't easily tell how far away the next branch is, you're pretty likely to be kicked out of the gene pool  It goes along with primates having trichromatic vision - see those luscious red fruits? - when most mammals, including horses, are dichromats.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Zexious said:


> Horses do not feel guilt. They simply do not have the higher cognitive functioning required to experience such a thought or emotion.


I hate to keep asking, but how exactly do you know this? What research has actually determined the mechanism of thoughts & emotions? (I know of none, and I spent a decade or so working in the field.) How was it determined that a brain "about the size of a grapefruit" is not sufficient* for thoughts or emotions? Or indeed, that emotions actually involve a lot of "higher cognitive functioning"?

Seems to me you're just repeating the quasi-religious doctine of human uniqueness, which IMHO is as big a fallacy as believing that animals are just humans with fur. Neither belief is supported by evidence.

*And if sheer number of neurons is what matters, pilot whales are way ahead of humans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons#Cerebral_cortex


----------



## Rob55 (Mar 6, 2014)

Prairie said:


> Horses are not dogs and they are prey animals so to think that a horse may care about you is along the lines of anthropomorphizing them---horses do not have human traits. While horse will recognize those people in their lives that feed, train, ride, work with, and care for them, they don't form the attachment that a dog or cat does with an owner. All our horses nicker a greeting as soon as I walk out the back door, come in to see what I'm doing when working around the barn, have learned good manners and respect my leadership, but I highly doubt that if my life was threatened by a predator, any one of them would come to my rescue like a dog.
> 
> 
> When I've departed company with my horse, I figure the horse either stops and waits for me to get up or circles back to me simply because I'm the constant in their life, especially when we're on a trail ride far from home. I also don't believe the horse has remorse or feels guilt, but is more curious and confused by me being on the ground instead of in the saddle. Horses only have a limited ability to reason the what, why, how, when, and where if something unexpected happens nor do they have the emotional attachment that humans do. My horse like me and appreciate me because I see that they are fed, have a clean stall to loaf in, make sure their stock tank is full, and go out of the way to meet their physical needs while ensuring that their mental needs are met to by providing a safe pasture where they have buddies, but they don't "love" me or truly have an emotional attachment to me since hubby can do the chores too and they really don't care that I wasn't there.


Prairie there are document instances of horses protecting humans from apex predators. Not that it really supports anybody's view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^It's true we don't know exactly how human emotions work, but we've got a relatively firm grasp on measuring intellect. If you've worked in the field for a decade, then you've surely used Google Scholar. It's a fantastic school and can provide a plethora of studies and scholarly journals written on animal intellect.

I define guilt as the following: a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person believes or realizes—accurately or not—that he or she has compromised his or her own standards of conduct or has violated a moral standard and bears significant responsibility for that violation. (per the Encyclopedia of Psychology) 
Guilt implies not only a recognition that they have done wrong, but an understanding of the implications that their actions have. 
Can you begin to describe for me what sort of "moral standard" a horse has? 

Too, I'm wondering what evidence you have to continue arguing against decades of combined years of experience, as is seen in this thread?
Or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?


----------



## Filly515 (Jul 8, 2016)

Here's your study showing that horses can recognize emotion in human expression and react accordingly. This is only one of many. They DO understand emotion. They CAN connect with a human on an emotional level and care. We do not fully scientifically understand the level of what emotions horses can feel. That doesn't mean they can't feel them. 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/feb/10/horses-can-recognise-human-emotion-new-study-shows


----------



## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I am wondering if horses that throw their rider off intentionally or otherwise, feel regret more so than guilt?


----------



## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Filly515 said:


> Here's your study showing that horses can recognize emotion in human expression and react accordingly. This is only one of many. They DO understand emotion. They CAN connect with a human on an emotional level and care. We do not fully scientifically understand the level of what emotions horses can feel. That doesn't mean they can't feel them.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/feb/10/horses-can-recognise-human-emotion-new-study-shows



The Guardian is not considered a reliable scientific source......


However there are well documented studies that prove horses recognize certain people in their lives, and while a few may have intervened to protect a rider from a predator, most horses would flee since the flight response is the "go-to" over the fight response in most situations.


----------



## Filly515 (Jul 8, 2016)

I'm not stating that study is scientific proof. It's a study, offering evidence that horses may recognize human emotions and react accordingly to them. If they didn't understand emotions, went would they react to it at all? I've read articles that state what we once thought we knew about the social behavior of horses and emotions could be completely wrong and they are rethinking the whole thing. Horses have emotions, you can't throw just one out the window stating they are incapable of feeling it when they clearly express so many other emotions. There are documented cases of horses recognizing other horses after being separated for years - they are obviously more than happy to see each other. As another had said above, there are documented cases of horses protecting humans. I don't care that they are flight animals - there ARE cases which indicates that they can form a bond with a human and is not just "they feed me and take care of me". Explain to me why when I handed my horse to a friend in the arena to go to the track room to get something, the second I was out of my horses sight she called for me? She does that regularly, and no she's not calling for another horse. She doesn't like other horses. In fact, she beats the crap out of them so bad she has to have a separate turnout. She tries to bite them regularly at shows when we pass other horses in the ring - is gotten better since I've gotten after her for it but that's not the point. 

Why is it that when my son fell during his lesson and started crying that the horse spun around to start nuzzling his head? 

There is evidence that horses are far more intuitive than people. Out of everyone in the horse industry, most of them would agree that horses recognize emotions and experience them for themselves. So you're saying that the majority of horse people are wrong in this thinking? That the experiences they've had first hand never happened? You can't say that horses can experience emotions A through Y but are not cognitive enough to understand Z. There is not enough "scientific evidence" to prove one way or the other. So I'm siding with the majority of the horse industry who are more intuitive than some and have experienced first hand the emotions of a horse.


----------



## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

I've never said that horses don't have emotions, but their emotions are not on the same level as a **** sapiens. For example, Mares certainly care for their foals and will protect them with their life, but once the foal is weaned their attachment to that individual horse is not comparable to a human's for her child, which lasts a lifetime. 


Horses also pick up on our emotions, often will try to comfort us, but that is not the same as having a human friend who is there for you and can verbally comfort you over the long term. In my 55+ years of being around horses, 45+ years of owning them, I've never had a horse show any sign of remorse when we've suddenly departed company-----most are curious about what I'm doing on the ground. I even wonder if the horse can make the connection between the buck, stumble, or whatever caused the ground check and the rider lying on the ground, much less feel remorse for that action that caused the fall.


----------



## Filly515 (Jul 8, 2016)

A relationship between a horse and person vs two people is no different. Because of the unique personalities between both, sometimes you just don't "click" with someone. Same goes with horses. I had a paint gelding for 2 years and we were two very different souls. We got along occasionally but in the end, it just wasn't a good fit. The woman I sold him to, the day she came out to meet him, I instantly saw a connection between them. Something I'd never seen in the 2 years I'd owned him. I believe that if you find a horse that is a good match, you can connect with them on an entirely different level. I prefer being around horses more than most people because yes, they do pick up on your emotions and often reflect them back onto you. That's why horses are so great at helping you grow as a person. They are pure honesty and if you have that connection, they are incredibly loyal animals. That's not to say they don't ever have bad days and you may hit the ground. We all have days like that.


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

No one is saying that horses don't recognize emotion or have emotion. Horses obviously know when someone is happy and calm vs anxious and angry. I don't know a single person who took that study seriously when it came out. They also can form (positive and negative) attachments to other animals, as we all know.

The debate is over if horses have the higher processes involved in thought processes such as guilt or shame. Those emotions/thoughts require a level of advanced cognition to form morals and self awareness that horses have not been demonstrated to have.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

One pony I had, a Shetland X all of 11.2 hands, was always very good with small children, not so much with bigger ones. When I stopped teaching at the riding school I leant him to a family, he went from family to family as he was outgrown. 
He ended up with a friend for his small daughte.
I was working away from home amd hadn't seen Thimble for several years. I attended the Counry show and was chatting to friends whilst the Lead Rein class was in the arena. 
I realised the Simon had his daughter and Thimble in the class and when it was their turn to do their display, they walked out in front of the judge, as they started to,walk away Thimble just stopped amd refused to move. Instead of making him move Simon lifted his daughter off his back amd carried her to the arena ropes where his wife was. As he handed the child over so she started to have an epileptic fit. 

Simon told met hat after about a month, Thimble started to do this stopping, about three minutes before Louisa fitted a pony worth his weight in gold. 

I knowmthatmdogs can be trained for predicting an epileptic fit, this pony was never trained, he just knew and as he took looking after his tiny riders seriously he behaved appropriately.


----------



## FaolchuThePainted (Jun 10, 2016)

I don't think I've ever seen a horse show guilt but that doesnt mean they don't experience guilt. In my opinion they do feel emotions. I think my horse Ryuu cared about me but I don't think he ever felt guilty when I would fall off but it was never his fault when i fell off. When he would feel me lose my balance or if I fell off of him he would stop and look at me until I got up and once I got back up he would start grazing. If I hadn't been to see him for a while and I came out there he would meet me halfway instead of waiting for me to come to him and after I would leave he would stand at the gate and watch me go sometimes. The last day I was with him he walked toward me and greeted me the same way he always did when I went out to him and he was as careful not to hurt me as he always was even thought he was shaking and covered in scrapes and cuts and had broken his leg and nearly torn it off.


----------



## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Animals are very good at picking up "offness" in other critters including humans. Our mini rescued Dachshund picked up that our dog that sustained a head injury leading to epilepsy was going to have a seizure within a week of landing here. Now she'll find me if she senses he's in trouble. Dogs have also been trained to sense when a diabetic's blood glucose is too high, when someone with PTSD is about to have a melt down, and other misfunctions of the human body. 


However, that ability does not mean horses feel guilt or badly when their rider is unseated.....


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I've never had a horse apologize for dumping me, although I'd swear that more than one has laughed at me sitting on the ground, after. ;-)


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

When I was a child we would bring the ponies in from the fields riding them bareback and with a home made rope halter plaited with bailer twine. 
There was a track across an open field to the stables and one Sunday a group of us were bringing the ponies in. I was riding a fat pony, Tommy. We got into the field where dairy cows were grazing. Tommy immediately yanked his head down and trotted down the side of the hill with me. He only went a few strides before stopping dead and, with his head down I stopped over his head and neck. I still had a hold of the halter rope whch ended up between my legs. Tommy immediately shot off to the side leaving me flat on my face and him free to graze, 
I caught him eventually and took him back to the gate onto the road to ride him all the way along the track without him eating. 

Nineteen times I came off him. Each time back to the gate to try again. Eventually I did get all the way along the track without him eating. Whether this was due to him giving up or being full, I will never know. What I do know is that he never had an iota of guilt about his antics!


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Zexious said:


> I define guilt as the following: a cognitive or an emotional experience that occurs when a person believes or realizes—accurately or not—that he or she has compromised his or her own standards of conduct or has violated a moral standard and bears significant responsibility for that violation. (per the Encyclopedia of Psychology)


Given that definition of guilt, I'd agree that you're likely correct that horses don't feel guilt, but I still would like to see evidence for making a positive statement that they can't. 

(And to go way off-topic for a bit, I think that even in humans your sort of guilt is something that has to be taught, usually by a religion, rather than something that comes naturally.)



> Too, I'm wondering what evidence you have to continue arguing against decades of combined years of experience, as is seen in this thread?


I think perhaps we're arguing at cross-purposes here. You seem to be limiting the discussion to your definition of guilt: I'm going by the original "do horses feel bad?". There are lots of reasons for feeling bad other than guilt. 

Just for an instance, the horse I was riding yesterday stepped on a stone (I think) and suddenly went a bit lame. Did I feel bad about that, hop off to check his hoof, worry that it might be serious? Sure. Did I feel the least little bit of guilt? No. So when I fell off the same horse last year and he came over to check me out (instead of running off, or stepping over to the grass & grazing, both of which I've known other horses to do), why should I not think he experienced somewhat similar emotions?


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Prairie said:


> ...while a few may have intervened to protect a rider from a predator, most horses would flee since the flight response is the "go-to" over the fight response in most situations.


Yes, and this is somehow different from humans?


----------



## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Wonderful ponies!

Back on topic, I think we all agree that horses and humans are different. The question is, where, and to what degree, are we SIMILAR?

I happen to think horses don't feel guilt, as such, because they always do what_ they think is right. _Not what WE think is right.

When "accidents" happen, that their behavior is not the norm (like spooking and losing a rider) there's more puzzlement, probably, than anything else. If a horse intentionally unseats a rider, he's still doing what he thinks he ought to do, even if we can't understand it.

P.S. I cannot accept, even though he is supreme as a killing machine, that the human species is the Prime Predator. He has too much fear in his make-up; unlike, say, a shark.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

@jamesqf -- I was responding to the way the conversation had evolved into questioning whether or not a horse can feel guilt.
It's possible that it must be learned in humans--but such things cannot be taught in horses, so I'm unsure where that has place in this conversation. 
I won't even comment on the religion bit xD Again, no place for that here.

In regards to the actual question at hand, sure a horse can feel bad. 
I'm certain OP's horse felt bad after she fell, considering it was chased about and yelled at xD Though, we'd probably differ on what type of bad this horse was feeling.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Beling said:


> P.S. I cannot accept, even though he is supreme as a killing machine, that the human species is the Prime Predator. He has too much fear in his make-up; unlike, say, a shark.


Man is the ultimate prime predator because he has the brain power to make and use weapons. If he were unarmed and unable to use tools, then it would be a different matter.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> Man is the ultimate prime predator because he has the brain power to make and use If he were unarmed and unable to use tools, then it would be a different matter.


I agree.

I warn people who want to wander and explore mtn lion/bear/wolf country that "You are nothing but kitty kibbles out here. You are not at the top of the food chain when you are unarmed."


----------



## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Foxhunter said:


> Man is the ultimate prime predator because he has the brain power to make and use weapons. If he were unarmed and unable to use tools, then it would be a different matter.


I was thinking more of predator in an instinctive way --- that is, I feel killing might be a learned trait. 

Anyway, this interesting topic should probably be in a thread of its own.


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Beling said:


> I was thinking more of predator in an instinctive way --- that is, I feel killing might be a learned trait.
> 
> Anyway, this interesting topic should probably be in a thread of its own.


I just listened to an interesting video on soldiers and "Shooting to kill". The jist of it was that without conditioning only 2% of people would shoot to kill another person and that most battle were fought and won essentially thanks to 2% of the fighting force. They went on to explain how among other animals, intraspecies fighting is largely the same. Each side will try to make themselves big and scary and intimidate the other but would never actually try to do damage to the opponent.


I'm sure this is relevant somewhere in this conversation, But I'm not sure where.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Zexious said:


> It's possible that it (guilt) must be learned in humans--but such things cannot be taught in horses, so I'm unsure where that has place in this conversation.


It's a question of whether or not the potential exists. That is, I almost certainly have the potential to play the violin, but I can't because I've never been taught. So could horses feel guilt if we could just figure out how to teach it to them? 



> I'm certain OP's horse felt bad after she fell, considering it was chased about and yelled at xD Though, we'd probably differ on what type of bad this horse was feeling.


Sure. But I've seen a wide range of reactions from horses who've had their riders fall off: looking at me in puzzlement (the "What the heck did you do that for?" look); examining me with every appearance of sympathy; displaying what appeared to be embarrasment; running off to graze half a mile away, or running full tilt down the track and out of sight, only to turn around and run full tilt back to the group.

So the only things I'm certain of on this are 1) horses are not all alike, any more than humans are; and 2) I sure don't understand everything about how horses think.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^I'm aware of the question at hand.
I maintain that I do not think the potential exists. 
Word it any way you like.


----------



## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

I do think horses are smarter than people give them credit for, however, I also realize that, with no real way to communicate with them in words, we will probably never know the answer to this question. I rarely fall off my mare, but when I do, it's probably because I did something stupid, at which point she gives me the patented mare glare like "You completely deserved that. I hope it hurt." The only time I came off when it was her fault and not mine, she acted genuinely concerned. Anthropomorphizing? Maybe...probably. But, how can anyone really prove either way? There are some accepted "facts" about animal behavior that will never be able to be tested due to the inherent language barrier. There will always be accusations of anthropomorphizing, but with no way to test these ideas, they will only ever be theories.


----------

