# The truth about horse riding - shocking



## Plymus (Sep 28, 2010)

I read this article awhile ago, and thought I'd share it. I know it's a lot of text, but i think EVERYONE who rides horses and care about their horse's well being should read this article. It's quite shocking i think. It's about what happens in the horse's back, when a saddle and a rider is put on.

The truth about horse riding - By Stormy May
Part 1; Challenge
Part 2; Challenge
Part 3; Challenge
Part 4; Challenge

Perhaps you'll think twice about punishing your horse when it gets mad when you saddle it or moves away when you try to get on it, after reading this article. 

(I searched the forum and couldn't find any other thread about this. If there is another thread then just ignore this one, but i'm pretty sure there isn't)


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm sorry. Quoting select parts of a much wider study, and being published on 'goarticles' does not make an author at all reputable. To take her conclusions as gospel is ridiculous. I don't mean that you can't cause the horse pain with an ill-fitting saddle. But to imply that every ride is doing damage is moronic (the author of the article, not the OP).


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

My horse has no tissue damage and I ride her all the time. I get the feeling that the author is one of those irrational "set the horses free" type of people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

My question is how do you feel about the article Plymus? Is this going to stop you from riding?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

Stormy may I believe works with alexander nevzorov who is an equestrian extreamest over in russia. Their "studies" on horses are never on mild average natural horsemen.... but are on people who don't understand how to ride correctly (like pulling constantly on the bit pretty harshly to turn, and don't have any good riding skills overall.) They have a whole haute ecole school where you can learn how to do some pretty impressive stuff on the ground with your horse with no aids (halter, bits, or saddles). Their rules are so to the dot that its almost like a cult sad to say. 

I believe alexander nevzorov is a good man... but has been corrupted with his own ideas. I think he has spent too much time around people who do rolkur and he got sick of seeing the stress on those horses.

He has recently announced that he has stopped riding all together due to him believing its not worth it for the horse's health. But I believe its because his horses have become too dangerous to handle. He has a whole idea of "let the horse teach you its ways"..... yeah... sure... more like "let's let the horse become alpha over you and push you around".... if you think that's not true natural horsemanship, just take a day or two to watch how wild horses act in the wild ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ah when you mention that she works with the Nevzorov that makes it all clear! I am sick of him, probably is better for him to stop riding. Now we have less 13 year old girls getting on their horses bareback and thinking they can do dressage like that, and ending up getting hurt.

Anyway. I wonder if 'Stormy May' is her real name?


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## MustangBlue (Feb 11, 2010)

I agree with everyone else...if riding was so bad for a horse, we would've heard a lot about it! There would be multiple studies, multiple results, we would hear things about the subject all over. So don't worry! You can't believe everything you read...especially if it's online!  I can tell from my horses they are clearly not harmed by my riding them and they are perfectly happy and healthy.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

All I have to say about this is :lol: .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Regan7312 (Jul 5, 2010)

Sunny said:


> All I have to say about this is :lol: .
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree..actually I have stuff to say but it is not so nice so I will refrain


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## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

This is a bunch of buffalo bagels.

Of course we can easily injure horses. That is why there is such a thing as "horsemanship", proper saddle fit, taking riding lessons, and teaching the horse to carry himself properly (i.e., without a hollowed back), and practice other aspects of correct riding.

This article feels like something PETA would produce. And I don't say that in a complimentary manner.


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

Ill fitting tack and improper horsemanship can hurt a horse.
Proper tack and horsemanship don't.

I think I have made my point.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I have to agree. No offense OP, but it honestly sounds to me like some bleeding heart "They're only happy if they are free........but if you can't do that, bitless and bareback is the next best thing" fanatic. You know, I am all for making sure that the horse is comfortable and well cared for, properly trained on how to carry themselves and has a good rider, but to say that riding in general and saddles are damaging the horse? Let's be a little realistic here. Horses living in the wild generally have a life expectancy of what, 15? 12? Horses in captivity, even horses that are ridden every day and competed on are consistently living longer and sounder lives. There are horses at 30 years old still out there going strong under saddle, more than twice the 'wild' life expectancy. Preventing injury and damage to your horse is one of the reasons for a person to learn to ride properly and well, avoid bouncing around and flopping on the back, teach the horse to round it's back and carry itself well, and recognize the signs when something isn't right so that it can be corrected.


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## Brithorse1996 (May 25, 2010)

alexander nevzorov's horse here looks real happy


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## wannahorse22 (Dec 27, 2009)

I think it was very interesting. People are obviously just responding to it critically because they are ignoring the truth. I found it to be true though. Think about it- those famous show horses out there wouldn't be where they are now without the painful training. If they didn't have to go through the training, they would be a "normal" horse-free. Those wild mustangs out there are fearful of humans _because _we havn't put them through the "brain-washing" yet.

But there are some horse-owners out their that do treat their horses with respect. The only one's that bother me are the people that ride...but only for being good at riding. They don't even care about the horse, they don't tae the time to figure out the *why. *They just punish it for something that may not even be their fault.


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## Brithorse1996 (May 25, 2010)

^^ True but remember there are people who do love their horses and do love riding, and this guy is pretty much saying everyone who uses a bit is an axe murderer


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## wannahorse22 (Dec 27, 2009)

Brithorse1996 said:


> ^^ True but remember there are people who do love their horses and do love riding, and this guy is pretty much saying everyone who uses a bit is an axe murderer


 
Yes, the article was a bit dramatic. I know there are people out there who genuinely love both. But it makes me sick watching girls at my barn smack their horses, because "they were going to fast". People need to learn how to use their body and communicate with the horse!!


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## JackofDiamonds (Aug 31, 2010)

Fluffy Pony said:


> He has recently announced that he has stopped riding all together due to him believing its not worth it for the horse's health. But I believe its because his horses have become too dangerous to handle. He has a whole idea of "let the horse teach you its ways"..... yeah... sure... more like "let's let the horse become alpha over you and push you around".... if you think that's not true natural horsemanship, just take a day or two to watch how wild horses act in the wild ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think his amazing to watch!! But i thought i should ask, is this his idea of "let the horse teach you his way" "aka becoming alpha"? If it is, it doesnt seem to be working in this pic!! Is it just me or is the horse biting him?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, I looked through some of his stuff and this guy is what I would call a cluck. That is an idiot with a completely twisted and skewed view of the world. What I don't get is that just riding a horse is so horrible for their health but stuff like this is still okay?? :? Anyone else feeling the fanatical hypocrite vibe?
Lydia Nevzorova's Photography
Lydia Nevzorova's Photography

Cause, yeeaaahh, that's so much easier on their bodies than just riding them around :roll:.

Or better yet, it is to much better on their legs and feet to do stuff like this over and over and over.
Lydia Nevzorova's Photography
Lydia Nevzorova's Photography
Lydia Nevzorova's Photography&


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## wannahorse22 (Dec 27, 2009)

^^^

That's just weird.


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## dunhorse (Oct 24, 2010)

holy cow, I've never heard of that guy, what a fruitcake! 

I don't think we're defensive because it's "true." I think we're somewhere between dumbstruck with how wacko that "trainer" is and how funny these bunnyhuggers can be.... 

look, horses were used by man for how many thousands of years?! If they weren't meant to be used, they would become crippled or never learn in the first place. I have started and trained a lot of horses, some I was able to be quiet and slow with, others had to be knocked down a notch. I'm guessing the author of those articles has never had to start a 2year old stud colt who can buck so high you can literally be eye level with the rafters... 

if being "wild and free" was really their eutopia, then why do horses come to you in the pasture? why do some have so much heart you can tell they want to win as bad as you do? why do they submit to us when we have never raised a hand at them? why do "natural horsemanship" techniques in a roundpen for the most partt WORK? and if they were so sore and didn't want to be ridden, why don't they resist it? Why do they stand there and let us put a halter on them and lead them out to the crossties and saddle them and go ride them?

this article and that trainer are full of premises that just don't make sense. 
and BTW, I love that pic of that black horse biting his shoulder. priceless. some people deserve what they get. like those idiots that have pet lions and boa constrictors.... DUH! 

ok, that was a good read. now I think I'm gonna go shine up my spur straps, lol.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

But HOW did he get that horse to jump on command? A whip?


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

What an odd duck.


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## EmilyandNikki (Sep 7, 2010)

So this is my reply to one of the posts about bad riders that whip a horse to make it go slower. You WHIP a horse to make it go slower? Wouldn't whipping it stimulate the reflex to go FORWARD or RUNAWAY and NOT slow down? Who did these people learn from?

And about the crazy guy, did anyone else notice the transport back in time look? Back to the time when people AND horses wore armor. I just found it ironic.


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

This guy actually sounds like that Bear Lover guy who got eaten. I hope he realizes that he is nothing more than a circus trainer...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

There is even a video of his horse biting him. Though at the moment I can't find it.

What I don't get is he hasn't started any of his horses. They all came from hard core dressage barns and all had advance training..... all he is doing is making it look better by working with them and further training them without any tack.


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## wannahorse22 (Dec 27, 2009)

*


EmilyandNikki said:



So this is my reply to one of the posts about bad riders that whip a horse to make it go slower. You WHIP a horse to make it go slower? Wouldn't whipping it stimulate the reflex to go FORWARD or RUNAWAY and NOT slow down? Who did these people learn from?

Click to expand...

*


EmilyandNikki said:


> And about the crazy guy, did anyone else notice the transport back in time look? Back to the time when people AND horses wore armor. I just found it ironic.


I think you were reffering to my post.

Don't ask me- the girls are just stupid, and mean to the horses. It makes me very mad. They laugh when the horse freaks out. Absolutely no communication between horse and rider.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I did watch one of their videos from their supposed research center :roll:.
Is it just me or does anyone else see the similarities between this video and those that preach BITLESSBITLESSBITLESS or you'll go to hell? I guess they are going for the shock value but they always choose the videos of the worst of the worst riders on ill-trained horses to show how "horrible and inhumane" the bit is.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't get why those people are all like "Set the horse free" What are the horses gonna do once they get free? They'll be hunted, eatin, starved when the resources run low which would happen cause the mass amount of horses that would be set free. They're just so irrational. Horses are much better off with humans. Well most humans, there's the *small* amount of horses that would be better off free.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

I HATE extremists!!


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

^^Meeee toooo. I've heard stories of them setting peoples horses loose once. I don't know if that's true, but if it is they'd so get a beating from me if they did that to my horse


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

smrobs said:


> YouTube - Nevzorov Haute Ecole Research Centre


 
When I watched this video, did anybody else notice that the kid in the test was _yanking _on the reins? And not once did they show him using gentle pressure on the reins?

What I want to know is what damage a cue on a loose rein like this does? :roll: This woman is sooo terrible for riding her horse in a bit :roll::





 
:roll: Or what about this western pleasure rider putting her horse in a shank bit, no less :roll::





 
:roll: And this must be the worst one yet :roll::





 

Bits are evil. We must ban them. Can't you see from my evidence that they are horrible? :roll:

Give me a break. If a bit is fitted correctly and is used in a responsible and correct manner, it doesn't hurt the horse. But hey, you be the judge of that, I've got some snaffle shopping to do...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

My sentiments exactly ^^.


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## princess warrior (Dec 28, 2009)

yup me too ^^


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

I understand that bits can be dangerous in the wrong hands. My instructors roan mare almost got her tounge cut off by a guy harshly using a jointed twisted wire snaffle bit on her. He didn't respect the power of the bit he was riding her in, and it caused Annie (the horse) to get cuts on her tounge. 
She is healed now, and has no ill effects left from the experience, as she is ridden _responsibly_ in a similar style bit, and does not show any signs of irritation from it.

Also, I know there are horses out there that would give their opinion if a bit was hurting them as bad as those "reasearchers" say it does. I've dealt with horses that communicate pain through mini bucking sessions from a pinching cinch. The horse that I am thinking of would probably rear over backwards if he had that much pain on his gums and tounge.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

That's just ridiculous.
I would think someone would have to have a mental illness to do such a thing 0_o


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## cosmomomo (Aug 10, 2010)

im sorry..but how many of us ACTUALLY haul as hard on our horses mouths on a regular basis as shown in that video. you've GOT to be kidding me.


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## dunhorse (Oct 24, 2010)

oh that video was something else.. what a complete lack of horsemanship and broke horses!

I actually have always come from the belief that a harsher bit and a lighter hand is nicer than a fat snaffle that you have to PULL on. I took some lessons as a kid on some old retired dressage plugs and we rode in these big hollow mouth or rubber snaffles... you might as well have been pulling on the back of a truck!

But my horses now ALL ride in a fairly small twisted wire d-ring for most of their early training, as soon as they start to get heavy on a regular snaffle. even after they're in a curb I go back to my old faithful from time to time. they all get a couple good jerks when needed and some tying back/around, but I have received TONS of compliments on how soft and light they all are. I think it's people trying to be too nice that actually cause the most damage, but that's just my 2 cents.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Yep, I can honestly say that I don't think I have ever pulled on a horse as hard as most the riders in that video, even when they were trying to buck me off.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

My response to those bitless extremist videos is always the same. How can we blame an inanimate object for causing damage to the horse? It is the hands, NOT the bit that causes the damage.

I bet the bitless people (the extremists, not the normal, sane people who like to ride in a hack etc) are those type that will blame the horse for their own mistakes - "oh he threw me off because he is cranky today".


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

I think there are a lot of people who don't understand how bits work and how important the hands are. For example, as smrobs pointed out in one of her excellent posts, the so-called Tom Thumb bit can be very harsh in the wrong hands but I see them everywhere as advertised for green horses, who are likely still being ridden two-handed. Even the people that ride bareback to be 'natural' are causing discomfort from their seatbones, probably more so than those of us that ride with a properly fitted saddle and quiet seat. IMHO with any piece of tack that we put on the horse, it is our responsibility to make sure that it's well fitted, suited for the intended purpose, and used in a way that is respectful to the horse. In other words, for me this is lifelong learning...


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Ladytrails said:


> IMHO with any piece of tack that we put on the horse, it is our responsibility to make sure that it's well fitted, suited for the intended purpose, and used in a way that is respectful to the horse.


Ding, ding, ding!
Well-said, and my sentiments exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

In that video smrobs posted, it shows a girl pulling back SO hard she leans her upper body back over the horse's rump... the man refers to that as a "standard pull" WTH? I would never pull that hard...


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## Cobble Hill Jumpers (Nov 16, 2010)

believe half of what you read! and none of what you hear!


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

EmilyandNikki said:


> So this is my reply to one of the posts about bad riders that whip a horse to make it go slower. You WHIP a horse to make it go slower? Wouldn't whipping it stimulate the reflex to go FORWARD or RUNAWAY and NOT slow down? Who did these people learn from?


_I forget what book I read it in, but I am sure it was Monty Roberts book....not 100% sure though. Its been a while since I read it. He was either testing a theory out, or whatever. Anyways, he found out that thoroughbreds who were hit every step of the way for such and such a distance were slower then a horse who was just left to run, or given encouragement by "scrubbing" the neck._

_Its been over 5 years since I read the book though, so I could be incorrect on where I got this from, but I know it was a book._


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Sounds to me like he thinks he is the only one that deserves to own and ride horses. :roll:


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

He's not like that. He does real horsemanship.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

If real horsemanship consists of being the under ranked horse in the herd... then take me off the list...

I would rather not be kicked, bit, or pushed around by an animal that can kill me pretty quick.

I'm surprised that Alexander hasn't been seriously injured by what few close calls he has had with a hoof and his face.


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## 1tarasue (Oct 23, 2010)

*Bareback better?*



Chiilaa said:


> Ah when you mention that she works with the Nevzorov that makes it all clear! I am sick of him, probably is better for him to stop riding. Now we have less 13 year old girls getting on their horses bareback and thinking they can do dressage like that, and ending up getting hurt.


I haven't ever heard of him. I'm about to go watch some videos and stuff. (I'm prepared to be :roll: entertained.) But, does he really suggest riding bareback as being better for the horse than with a saddle? The saddle spreads out the weight and is much less likely to create pressure points than just seat bones. I know my horse is more comfy under saddle than bareback.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

He used to say only riding 15 minutes every other day is fine. Now he is totally against it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

*Scientific evidence*

*The guy is off in la la land along with Stormy May*

That is because he is extreme. 
However, there are numerous other scientific studies done on the effect of the bit and this are in line with his. Does this make him mister wonderful, no.

Bits do long term damage even in the best of hands and the science proves this. Does this mean we can't ride with bits, no, it means we should be aware of the end results and make the appropriate changes in how we use bits and the type of bits we use.

Yes, I personally endorse bitless, however, bitless is ridden more often incorrectly too. We as riders have the fiduciary duty to ride with due diligence regarding how and what actions we induce upon our horses, whether it is bitted or unbitted, ridden or unridden.

Oh and some of the out of the box so called evidence provided in Stormy May's diatribe regarding the horse's back is false.........


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## ImagineThat (Sep 18, 2010)

smrobs said:


> I did watch one of their videos from their supposed research center :roll:.
> Is it just me or does anyone else see the similarities between this video and those that preach BITLESSBITLESSBITLESS or you'll go to hell? I guess they are going for the shock value but they always choose the videos of the worst of the worst riders on ill-trained horses to show how "horrible and inhumane" the bit is.
> YouTube - Nevzorov Haute Ecole Research Centre


Oh geez. I love how they found the most horrible footage they could... and they act like that is "standard". :roll:
This reminds me of that stupid SHARK Org. that claims rodeo to be evil...


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

I think people like SHARK, just want to be remembered. Doesnt matter if it's for being a complete ***!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Fluffy Pony- I was referring to Monty Roberts not the other guy, incase my post wasn't very clear


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I hadn't heard of that guy either. Sounds like a fruitcake 

That footage looked kinda dodgy too 

Though I have to admit, I think the world needs extremists to make the rest of us look more normal.

Not a lot else to say actually...


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Ahahaha! ^^ Nice!


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## Plymus (Sep 28, 2010)

i know the article has to be taken with a gran of salt, but i don't think it's all bull**** and made up. i didn't post the article because i think people should stop riding, but because i think some people should become more aware of their horses and what the horse is trying to tell us. where i'm from, some of the first things you learn on most riding schools is that if the horse doesn't do what you want it to, it's just being naughty and needs to be punished. especially when it comes to the horse being saddled, bucking or moving when you try to get on it. just hit it/kick it/pull it, is what you're told from the instructor. and bad fitting saddles aren't always replaced with a better saddle, instead they just throw a breastplate or crupper on the saddle. of course it's not everyone who does that, but alot of people do, because that's what they were taught.

but i'm very sorry that i didn't know that denmark is the only country in the world where ill-fitting saddles and uneducated people exist


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

That article was not about listening to the horse. It was about listening to a crackpot that has decided riding is cruel.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Exactly. If they were really so concerned with people learning to listen to the horse, then they would be talking about the signs and treatment of injuries, how to recognize proper saddle fit and bit fit, even explain proper bit usage instead of bashing saddles and bits and riding in general.


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## Opendoorequine (Nov 29, 2010)

Tee hee. I just read the 1st part about psi and blood flow shutting down. From the view point of a farrier I have to bring up the point about capillary blood flow and psi to the hoof and about intermittent pressure application to the hoof. Every step a horse takes puts pressure on the capillaries in the hoof forcing blood away from or sucking it back to the hoof and up & down the leg. (It does the same thing in your foot too.) Why is this a bad thing for a saddle to do too? If a saddle is fit properly or as properly as current technological will allow I hardly see this as a bad thing. A saddle is not as stationary as a concrete support post in a high rise building, it is in constant motion as the horse and rider move. A saddle doesn't have to be clamped down so tight it doesn't slip ever. It just needs to be tightened enough as to not slip too easily. Any of our riding horses spend more time unsaddled than saddled. We don't ride them as a necessary mode of transportation anymore so it's not like they are hanging outside ye old tyme saloon waiting for 8 hours saddled for our return. 

Bodies go through tremendous rigors, death of cells and reconstruction of cells. Do we quit working horses or ourselves because in order to build muscle we have to tear, rip and reconstruct muscle in order to become fit too?

"When we subject our horses to these pains for our own pleasures we are  breaching something fundamental in our relationship. The fact that many horses tolerate these traumas speaks more about their innate grace and understanding than any proof of our "right" to sit on a horse's back or their enjoyment of this process."

Ok, so do we make them pasture ornaments? I agree to this if the saddle is of poor fit & quality and I agree that horses tolerate a lot of our ignorance too well sometimes however as long as we do our best to make the horse comfortable I think we are doing just fine. Horses LIKE having jobs. They are happier, and mentally healthy when they have something to do, just like we are. 

So no, these articles do no make me want to stop riding, giving lessons, training and working with my horses. It makes me agree with the non complimentary PITA comment left by an earlier poster. They do reinforce my desire to teach the way I teach though.  Ride lightly, cue as lightly as possible, less is more and cooperation and critical thinking about such things as these articles.

One more point (I couldn't resist) The comment about making saddles levitate is plane ridiculous. Should we make everything work in an anti-gravity environment to save flesh? I think NASA is having a hard time making bodies behave properly and in a healthy manor in an anti-gravity environment and they have learned that it is NOT a good thing. 

Good conversation starter!


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## Opendoorequine (Nov 29, 2010)

One more quick comment about the original post; Anything that makes one think and or question an "Authority" is super in my book. I love a good debate and intelligent conversation. We should always question what we do and reevaluate our methods, technique and thinking. As long as we use critical thinking and our intent is good we are allowed to make mistakes and learn from them. Horse equipment has seen tremendous advances for the better and worse, but more good has been done in my opinion. All sentient beings need purpose however, riding a horse is no exception. I've meet several horses that have been left with no job to do and they seem depressed to me. The change in attitude is measurable when they were given a job. 

Mental health in horses is just as real as the physical. That we can not neglect either.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

Lol levitating saddles... I would rather have full contact..... then no contact at all.


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## CaptainLiecy (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh yeah, the picture of that guy making horse leaping into the air is OH so natural.. that's what they do in the wild all the time..... HAH!

And of course, bits are the most cruel things ever invented... I'm pretty sure you could do more damage to a horse with a stick than you could ever do with a bit.


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## CaptainLiecy (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh and as for riding bareback... I have to say I'm not a great fan of that. Every now and then for a short amount of time is acceptable, but you have to realise that you're sitting directly on your horse's spine, and the channel down the middle of your saddle is there for a reason; to protect the horse's spine from unneccesary weight.


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## Opendoorequine (Nov 29, 2010)

About that "Scientific testing video", the sound doesn't work on my looser computer so I couldn't hear what they were saying but in college I was a bio major. What I saw was bad science. There was no bridle holding the bit properly static when they used the pounds per "jerk" scale, the test rider wasn't holding the reins properly and it doesn't take into account the suction of a closed mouth on the bit or the starting position of the bit in the horses mouth. Therefore they discounted at lease 4 variables that are directly related to proper functioning of the bit. All they tested was the test rider's strength in "jerking". What they could have done also and gotten the same result was to tie a string directly to the scale. That equates to bad science. The whole thing looks like a bad infomercial for people who don't know what they are talking about and only feeds the fire for the PETA types. It is not science, it is emotional herding of sheeples to the extremest groups.

A proper experiment would have been to attach the scale to a bit in a live horse then attached the reins to the other end of the scale. Then repeated the "Jerk" about 100 times with the test rider holding the reins properly. THAT would have been acurate science.

Think about what happened to the riding horses and draft horses shortly after the start of the use of the gas engine. Thousands of horses without jobs. Bad stuff if you ask me. 

I had a convo with a few of the girls I work with about the race horse industry. People who don't have a first had look at any industry shouldn't point fingers or claim to know everything relating to it and shouldn't preach negatively about it until they have a full first hand grasp of all the industry intales. It is ignorance that breeds a lot of cruelty. One of the girls said that it's inhumane to make horses run like that. Hmm, well tell that to the horses who love to run, tell that to Zynetta, Secretariat, Seabiscut, Man O' War, etc. They didn't get that memo. Tell Border Collies that herding sheep is inhumane too. 

I'm not saying there are bad apples, I'm all for balance and proper treatment in every industry. I love horse sports and so do the horses. The wackos will not hear that nor will they listen to reason or see the desire horses have to do their jobs well, but the border line people will. It is our job as pro, semi-pro and amateurs to prove to the people who might be one of those borderline people that we do care, that we do bust our butts for our horses and that our horses bust their butts for us too, and like to work.

Good science may have made me think differently. Bad science is a lie that offends my intelligence and only proves to me that they are extremists. So again, critical thinking and ask lots of questions, always question "authority/authorities", ask yourself "What are they really trying to sell?" and question your own actions and improve your personal methods with every ride.


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## SissyGoBob (Oct 17, 2010)

Oh dont even get me started on SHARK......


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

The link didn't work for me


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## SissyGoBob (Oct 17, 2010)

justjump said:


> The link didn't work for me


 
me either, but i read up some on him on google and from what these girls/guys are saying he says tack is absolutely horrible...


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

SissyGoBob said:


> me either, but i read up some on him on google and from what these girls/guys are saying he says tack is absolutely horrible...


Lord. I'm glad the link didn't work then. I'd probably go on a rampage.. I hate bullcrap like that.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

smrobs said:


> I did watch one of their videos from their supposed research center :roll:.
> Is it just me or does anyone else see the similarities between this video and those that preach BITLESSBITLESSBITLESS or you'll go to hell? I guess they are going for the shock value but they always choose the videos of the worst of the worst riders on ill-trained horses to show how "horrible and inhumane" the bit is.
> YouTube - Nevzorov Haute Ecole Research Centre


 
I didn't read through the whole thread or even watch the whole video but did anyone else wonder why the guy yanking on the simulators mouth was in show attire and a helmet? I'm pretty sure it isn't that dangerous :lol:.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Ahahahahaa! Nice! ^^


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

Arksly said:


> I didn't read through the whole thread or even watch the whole video but did anyone else wonder why the guy yanking on the simulators mouth was in show attire and a helmet? I'm pretty sure it isn't that dangerous :lol:.


It was probably to simulate the impact that a person in a show exserts on their horses mouth when they wear a jacket. :roll: 

And you never know when a machine is going to buck you off, so of course the kid is wearing a helmet. :roll:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"*[45] What does Alexander do, if not riding? What about Haute Ecole?*

NHE is developing, new knowledge is coming, old knowledge is being rethought, values are being revalued. Now Alexander teaches the horses Latin. Details will be available very soon, when the new film is ready.

*[44] Why there have not been new photos in the gallery of Alexander aback for so long?
Are the horses healthy?*

All the horses are healthy, but there are and will be no riding photos. Alexander stopped riding about two years ago, and is not going to continue this practice.
He doesn't ride on ethical grounds, first of all. And besides, even the most permissive riding doesn't profit anything horse's health."

F.A.Q.

"He was the first to tell everyone what equestrian sport really consists of:
"_ *… equestrian sport by nature can’t be even defined as a sport. Yes, any sport includes records and victories, but these records and victories are gained by one’s own sweat and blood, by one’s own pains and efforts. And equestrian sport (if we study the issue) represents parasitizing on physical abilities of another living being which does not want to be engaged in this sport but forced to it by pain and beating. So why the hell we call it a sport? *_
*Among all sportsmen there are no more than two percent of real sadists, and others just do not realize what they’re doing”.*
A. Nevzorov “The Horse Crucified and Risen”

Alexandår Nevzorov

""In NH [natural horsemanship] a horse has its part of course. But it matters no more than a cow matters in a barbeque. Its role is integral and even critical, but totally unenviable.
Sure, NH has its "front end" which is shown publicly. Everybody sees and knows it while it is presented by business disciples of Pat Parelli, who is now considered the head of HN.
The "back end" is just a collection of simple tricks taken from cattlemen, some specifics and a firm knowledge that there are thousands of "fat ladies" who want to "have a ride" but are scared of horses."

Horse Revolution

Now, I ask you, how can anyone think a man who spends his time teaching Latin to horses is nuts? :shock:


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

bsms said:


> Now Alexander teaches the horses Latin.
> 
> Now, I ask you, how can anyone think a man who spends his time teaching Latin to horses is nuts? :shock:


I would love to see his horse speak fluent Latin. Oh, and even carry on a real conversation with him. 

Nuts, man. That is what is in his brain.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I just saw a picture of him riding??? I thought that was sooo cruel!!


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## Pantera (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm getting sick of these bitless extremists.I've always used either d or O ring snaffles,switching to western show shanks for western pleasure shows.I have never,never hauled on a horses mouth like that and never will.It's bad riders that cause us responsible and kind riders to get a bad name and become targets for the mindless fools who fall for such stupidity fed to them by quacks like this guy.
And ever notice how extremists like this use only footage of said bad riders?
Arg...


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I know! Like if your riding like that, you just shouldn't be riding!


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## Pantera (Jan 25, 2011)

Ray MacDonald said:


> I know! Like if your riding like that, you just shouldn't be riding!


I agree.When I'm giving riding lessons to a beginner I always teach them what proper contact with your horses mouth is and usually have them working on a loose rein until they can maintain a proper, Independent seat.Keep in mind I won't have any one going over a trot off the lunge line until they can do so,so they feel comfortable not being able to hold the reins.Because I find beginners who haul on the reins too hard are trying to so to balance themselves.Which I suppose is no excuse,but as A trainer and instructor I find you have to give newbies some slack as they just don't know any better and most are pretty good when you kindly let them know it's not right and offer some help and advice to them.

The sad thing is some people don't know when they're riding improperly or I've found just couldn't give a hoot if they are or not.


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

He looks like a total idiot. I can't stand people like that.


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

link wouldn't work for me.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

Didn't work for me either, said page could not be found.


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## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

> Now we have less 13 year old girls getting on their horses bareback and thinking they can do dressage like that, and ending up getting hurt.


Granted, I'm 16, but I can get on my horse bareback and do dressage like that. There's nothing wrong with bareback riding. I actually find I stick on better bareback. 

@Cheshire - PETA has some had some off days, but their organization as a whole is good with a great purpose; preventing animal cruelty. Which I would certainly hope you support.

​


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Clementine said:


> [email protected] - PETA has some had some off days, but their organization as a whole is good with a great purpose; preventing animal cruelty. Which I would certainly hope you support.


A good heart without a brain can cause a LOT of problems.

"PETA has written to the president and chief executive of Samsung Electronics Europe, In-Soo Kim, urging him to pull the online ad, which was created by The Viral Factory. 

In the letter, written by PETA’s Erika Davis, the organisation claims that the use of sheepdogs is extremely stressful for sheep, which should not be treated as inanimate props.

Davis writes: "They [sheep] are sentient, intelligent and complex animals…Tormenting, harassing and scaring sheep to promote a product is unacceptable."

Peta slams Samsung ad for cruelty to animals - advertising news - Campaign

"But now Peta - People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals - is itself on the receiving end of angry words over its own treatment of animals after it emerged that the organisation put down 96 per cent of the animals handed into its American headquarters. Of 2,216 animals taken to its premises in Norfolk, Virginia, last year, 2,124 were put to sleep - almost six per day. Homes were found for just seven. 

The high-profile charity, famous for its "I'd rather go naked than wear fur" campaigns, has euthanised more than 20,000 pets in the last decade, according to figures it has supplied to Virginia state officials. 

Peta insists that homes could not be found for the dogs and cats, usually because they were in such poor health or because they were "unsocialised" and aggressive, usually because of bad treatment by their owners." 

Peta under fire over claim that it kills most animals left at its US headquarters - Telegraph

They want to eliminate purebred dogs, so no more Border Collies - but then, Border Collies are cruel herders...

Mao claimed good intentions in killing 50+ million Chinese. Claimed good intentions are not enough.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

Clementine said:


> Granted, I'm 16, but I can get on my horse bareback and do dressage like that. There's nothing wrong with bareback riding. I actually find I stick on better bareback.


I think they mean with no bridle, no saddle, and no proper training. I find that I have a better seat bareback as well and I do dressage. However, a person with little experience see's that and says "I can do that". They hop on their horse with no tack and try to go more than a walk and fall off (if they don't have proper balance). Also, some of the things he does are very dangerous for anyone to do.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Clementine said:


> @Cheshire - PETA has some had some off days, but their organization as a whole is good with a great purpose; preventing animal cruelty. Which I would certainly hope you support.
> 
> ​


I agree with bsms on this. PETA may have good INTENTIONS in what their mission statement is, but they usually have no idea what they're talking about. They make up propaganda to get an emotional response from people rather than a logical, thought out one. 

PETA offended me years ago with their Holocaust on Your Plate ad (I'm not Jewish or anything, but heavily interested in the Third Reich and Nazi Germany, so I know quite a bit about it.) That whole campaign was offensive and the commercial I am referring to is not even on their archive page and I can't find it anywhere. 

I don't support animal cruelty in any way, but I even more so do not support PETA.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

A major turning point in the relationship between man and equine in pre history was when man stopped seeing horse primarily as food but as a source of power and transportation.

It is nonsense to suggest that a horse cannot carry a person if the statement were true then more horses would never ever allow a human to mount up.

What is true is that not enough riders take care to make sure that the saddle fits the back of the horse properly. 

Certainly I read about lots of young riders in the US buying English style saddles because the saddle was priced cheaply on the Internet. If the saddle doesn't fit the shape of the horses back, then it is worthless and potentially very costly in vet's fees.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Depends on what sport your talking about, and there will never be just one person that is the best in the world.


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