# Constructive Criticism Needed For New Business Venture



## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

I apologize if this was posted in the wrong place... maybe I should move it to the General Discussion Board?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

you first of all, need to check with the zoning in your area. You many not be able to add more cabins or have such an operation. 
secondly, have you checked insurance liability rates on that type of business ?
Thirdly, do you think you would have clients ?
Whats the reason most people go to Nashville ?


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

stevenson said:


> you first of all, need to check with the zoning in your area. You many not be able to add more cabins or have such an operation.
> secondly, have you checked insurance liability rates on that type of business ?
> Thirdly, do you think you would have clients ?
> Whats the reason most people go to Nashville ?


First, thanks for the reply! These are very valid questions.

As far as zoning, it would depend on the property of course. The property/area I am keeping a close eye on is very rural, county zoned so you're able to make additions to the property as needed. Of course, it is always good to double check!

Nashville and the surrounding area(s) has a huge tourist draw. According to the city's website, we had 12.2 million visitors bringing in 4 billion in tourism dollars in 2013. It's a huge conference center hub, event and concert hub, lots of outdoor activities, fine dining, pro sports teams, etc. It's actually got a ton to offer, and the area I am interested in is about a 45 drive from Nashville in the center of "horse country", if you will. The Tennessee Walking Horse Association is HQ in Middle TN, there's a huge equestrian presence. 

Thanks again for the input, I do appreciate it so much!


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Rebel, I would highly encourage you to set up an appointment with your local Small Business Development Center (SBDC) to get their support and advisement. They provide free, confidential business counseling to small business owners and would be able to connect you with resources on the issues that have been raised in the other posts. Here is the website: https://www.tsbdc.org/

Good luck!


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

egrogan said:


> Rebel, I would highly encourage you to set up an appointment with your local Small Business Development Center (SBDC) to get their support and advisement. They provide free, confidential business counseling to small business owners and would be able to connect you with resources on the issues that have been raised in the other posts. Here is the website: https://www.tsbdc.org/
> 
> Good luck!



Thanks for that link, I will definitely check it out!


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

New question for those who do have horses, is this a type of establishment that would interest you? Would this be something you see yourself utilizing?


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

Bump... anyone??

Just looking for some feedback from the horse community on if this is an establishment you would like/want to visit.

Saying "no" is OK, too  Won't know unless I ask!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I think the biggest issue you will run into will be insuring the place. Not only will you need to insure your facility for public use (the basics: buildings, what have you), but you will also need to have insurance for people dealing with horses. This can get pretty pricy, especially when your insurer realizes that you will be dealing with people who, potentially, have no experience with horses.

Whether or not you get a lot of business would, I think, depend a lot on the facilities and locale. Is it aesthetically pleasing? Is it a place that people would vacation under normal circumstances? Is there stuff nearby for the inevitable member of the family who doesn't like horses? 
All things to consider.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Keep in mind that the local zoning may say it is fine to build what you want-BUT-can you get enough wells to provide enough water? Does the property perk? (meaning will it work for septic?) As I recall, that is a very rocky area. You may have some issues with those…….and insurance, as has been stated. But somehow, other dude ranches do it.

There is quite a bit of competition around the state-I just did a really quick google and came up with at least 5.


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

franknbeans said:


> Keep in mind that the local zoning may say it is fine to build what you want-BUT-can you get enough wells to provide enough water? Does the property perk? (meaning will it work for septic?) As I recall, that is a very rocky area. You may have some issues with those…….and insurance, as has been stated. But somehow, other dude ranches do it.
> 
> There is quite a bit of competition around the state-I just did a really quick google and came up with at least 5.


Thanks for the response! That's what I'm researching now ( septic, zoning, etc). 
Coming from the background in MT, there's a ranch on every corner! The closest one to me is still a good hour, hour and a half drive so I'm not too terribly concerned about that aspect, it's still a pretty unsaturated market here. Luckily, I have a family member in marketing that is pulling together some information for my business plan specifically geared towards that very issue re:competition.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Welllll....

I love what we do, I love where we live, but it's HARD work.

My best advice is to start SMALL. We went big or were going home... It's taken years, especially in a rough economy, to recoup most of our investment. It's a miracle we've lasted, and oh man it's been a rough 10 years, so many times we were on the brink of disaster. So maybe some of these ideas will help...

1. 108 acres is good. But if I were you I'd look for something close to national forest, a river, a lake, and more land. Close proximity to hiking trails, mountain biking, rock climbing, canoeing, kayaking, ATV trails, geocaching, etc, and of course good , marked, safe horse trails.
Historic monuments, antique shopping, arts & crafts, wineries, etc are also REALLY important.
If you can't be close, be on the way.
LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION! 

2. Buy property that is financially "multi-purpose".
We cut hay off our venue, we can harvest timber if need be, we sold rock once to keep afloat, make sure you purchase something with a natural resource you can capitalize on if things get tough.

3. Before you put in cabins think about a small RV park. Much less of an initial investment, most of our horse campers like to be with their horses 24/7 instead of staying in our cabins/lodge. You'll also get higher traffic from tent campers and RV'ers because the economy is still struggling. Research the going rates/amenities for other facilities in your chosen area. You'll be competing for every dime so choose a location that has at least two additional attractions than anyone around you.

4. Attractions, and amenities are imperative. Stocked ponds are great, a swimming pool (or river) is a must for many families, a playground, and a superb shower house. Maintained and marked hiking trails, pavement, water, gas, etc... You first need to invest in the basics, that REALLY adds up.

3. Glamping is HUGE. Before you invest in cabins try some permanent small structures near a "newly" constructed shower house. Do some research on the trend.

4. Think bunkhouse. You'll get boysouts, large family groups, church groups, etc.

5. Weddings. Huge industry!
Find the most picturesque spot on your property and build a unique structure like an arbor. Use large stone pavers and take the time to plant lovely gardens. You'll be surprised how much money this can pull in. 

6. Ecotourism is a great attraction. A small "farm" setting can bring in families and that means $$$$. Gardens, small farm animals, and seasonal activities like pumpkin/apple/berry picking etc will help.

7. Think about events. We have a year round cabin and campground business, but if it weren't for a few large annual events we host, we'd never make it. Look for a place with plenty of parking/primitive camping areas, just on case you hold a CTR or other large gathering.

6. Most horse people go to established locations that have been around for generations. You'll be new. It's really hard to get people off their beaten path because tried is true. So even the best new places, regardless of who they are catering to, need to have a 5 year financial plan. You'll be VERY LUCKY to get even close to black by your 3rd year.

7. Like said before insurance is EXPENSIVE. Around $30,000 and up a year for us. 
Next is machinery. Gas is expensive, equipment and maintenance is expensive.
Structure repairs can eat you alive.
Utilities on 8 cabins, 1 lodge, and 55 RV sites is a bloody fortune.
Property taxes, hey guess what? The more you improve/build the higher your taxes will be.
Advertising costs, FB is great but it's very expensive to do web marketing, print ads, TV ads, etc. Starting off, budget $5,000, at least a year. But it's WELL WORTH the investment, more than anything else, pay to advertise!
Running TV ads about 50 to 250 miles away on local news stations is a good idea, but VERY costly.
(DVR's are killing us! But it's still a good way to go.)
For us, being so large, we average over $25,000 A MONTH just in basic operating costs.
(That does not include loan payments, we are now paid off.)
But even if you start small, you better have some SERIOUS savings, LOL!

If you create a unique atmosphere, have a multi purpose venue, with multiple amenities, even In this economy, you can do it!
GRADUALLY get into the horse area after you've got an established infrastructure, and reputation, the basic outdoorsy stuff will pay the bills until then.

Just be prepared... Owning a business like this is 25/8 on call, back breaking, hard work. Be sure you are mentally and physically up to the challenge. This will be your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Also, I would wait before getting trail horses.

We thought about it in the beginning, there isn't another place for 200 miles that did it. This area is also WELL known, has a couple other campgrounds, a small family camp that's rented out every week, and us so we thought there would be a need.

Four years ago a man (business man that works three other jobs) put in an awesome trail ride 10 miles from us. We sent him TONS of business and promoted him heavily as one of our "assets". He only made enough to keep the horses and maintain his super nice facility, and one wrangler. They are still there but only open for special groups. It costs more than it makes and he just likes having the horses. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

There is many, many guest ranches as you described in your post in this area. In fact a good friend of mine owned one and is the director of marketing for all the guest ranches that belong to an association she started to market them. It is not really a big money making operation, usually the cattle or the hay or both take up the slack. Europeans, most German and Swiss are the majority of the clients for these guest ranches, all booked online.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

There is something similar in Shelbyville that I have visited. Very nice place. I stay when passing through and have sent others to do the same.
It is a very nice place but they have money previous to opening this. If it had to pay for itself I think it would be tough. Because the area isnt as expensive as others it is also difficult to charge more. I actually think they could charge more for travelers.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

Other posts have been very helpful!

I too would bring up insurance as one of the big concerns. Especially if you plan on doing anything with hunting. That jacks up the rate like crazy. The ranch I do work for had thought about doing hunting trips there, but insurance made it not feasible. It also stopped its "guest ranch" duties and went back to strictly a working ranch.

I'm guessing you will need some sort of financing for this. Do you have a start on a business plan to bring to the bank?

Business plans are essential to getting a loan and will help you really think about all aspects of the business. They should be very in-depth, so I would recommend getting some how-to books on them and looking at examples on the internet. I'm kinda a business plan nerd, so feel free to PM me on anything (I even competed in it at the national level). 

Business plans will include: estimated financials for 5 years, competitor analysis, marketing plan, cash flow analysis, analysis of target market, and much much more. Yours should easily be 20-50 pages long.

Let me know if you have any business plan questions.


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

FlyGap said:


> Welllll....
> 
> I love what we do, I love where we live, but it's HARD work.
> 
> ...




Thank you, this has been extremely helpful! 
RE the 108 acres. I went and looked at it and even though I do love it, I don't think it is quite right for what I am wanting to do. So the acreage search and LOCATION, LOCATION LOCATION is my #1 investment right now. 
So, back to drawing board of securing a property that will be the best fit


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

mlkarel2010 said:


> Other posts have been very helpful!
> 
> I too would bring up insurance as one of the big concerns. Especially if you plan on doing anything with hunting. That jacks up the rate like crazy. The ranch I do work for had thought about doing hunting trips there, but insurance made it not feasible. It also stopped its "guest ranch" duties and went back to strictly a working ranch.
> 
> ...


I am working on this as we speak. I signed up to take a small business class through my local CoC, it's a 3 part series so I am hopeful it will help me cultivate some ideas I have on paper into a more formulated BP.. because I know I will need one!


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

waresbear said:


> There is many, many guest ranches as you described in your post in this area. In fact a good friend of mine owned one and is the director of marketing for all the guest ranches that belong to an association she started to market them. It is not really a big money making operation, usually the cattle or the hay or both take up the slack. Europeans, most German and Swiss are the majority of the clients for these guest ranches, all booked online.


This was my experience as well while working in MT, a lot of the clientele was from Europe or the Northeastern side of the US and Canada. There were virtually no locals or "middle America" tourists that would stay at the ranch. Of course, it was VERY remote so things like a conference center or wedding venue was really out of the question.


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

stevenson said:


> you first of all, need to check with the zoning in your area. You many not be able to add more cabins or have such an operation.
> secondly, have you checked insurance liability rates on that type of business ?
> Thirdly, do you think you would have clients ?
> Whats the reason most people go to Nashville ?




I agree! Liability insurance is and can be a HUGE expense. While it varies from area to area, whenever the general public and livestock are put together the insurance risks are huge and you pay accordingly. I own a stallion station, so nobody but myself and family rides on my property. My liability, just to have the animals on my property is $5000 per year, another $400 rider for the stallions, another $700 rider for taking my horses off my property ( just in case one gets loose on a trail ride or at a show and eats the neighbors flowers or leaves hoof prints on their lawn ). My employees add another $2000 to my basic liability. Since you say you are serving food, well not you now have a whole different additional liability insurance for that too.


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

BugZapper89 said:


> I agree! Liability insurance is and can be a HUGE expense. While it varies from area to area, whenever the general public and livestock are put together the insurance risks are huge and you pay accordingly. I own a stallion station, so nobody but myself and family rides on my property. My liability, just to have the animals on my property is $5000 per year, another $400 rider for the stallions, another $700 rider for taking my horses off my property ( just in case one gets loose on a trail ride or at a show and eats the neighbors flowers or leaves hoof prints on their lawn ). My employees add another $2000 to my basic liability. Since you say you are serving food, well not you now have a whole different additional liability insurance for that too.


Thanks for including figures in your reply, I appreciate that because it gives me something to work with! I like a PP's suggestion of starting small and growing from there, that seems to be a common denominator in all of the businesses and people I have been asking about this venture.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

For horse people, I think 100 acres is a bit small, unless you are connected to a State or National forest that has trails. For regular tourists, that size may work. 

Good Luck!


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

greentree said:


> For horse people, I think 100 acres is a bit small, unless you are connected to a State or National forest that has trails. For regular tourists, that size may work.
> 
> Good Luck!


Very true, this is a point that I wondered about as well. We are pretty close ( within 30 minutes) to two state parks with very cultivated trails as well as lots of great canoe/kayak drop points


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

FlyGap said:


> Also, I would wait before getting trail horses.
> 
> We thought about it in the beginning, there isn't another place for 200 miles that did it. This area is also WELL known, has a couple other campgrounds, a small family camp that's rented out every week, and us so we thought there would be a need.
> 
> ...


Not only that but the liability in letting the public ride your horses is huge!
In our area we have seen one place after another stop letting the public ride and then go out of business. One little kid with permanent brain damage is all it takes and sometime a whole lot less! It is almost impossible to find a stable in our whole state that lets the public ride(rent-a-horse).
Insurance companies hate getting involved in this kind of liability and will charge you an arm & a leg!


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

Chasin Ponies said:


> Not only that but the liability in letting the public ride your horses is huge!
> In our area we have seen one place after another stop letting the public ride and then go out of business. One little kid with permanent brain damage is all it takes and sometime a whole lot less! It is almost impossible to find a stable in our whole state that lets the public ride(rent-a-horse).
> Insurance companies hate getting involved in this kind of liability and will charge you an arm & a leg!


That's good to know. I signed a release form with my stable and instructor when I paid for lessons. I'm sure even with that, it is still very expensive!


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Rebelwithacause said:


> That's good to know. I signed a release form with my stable and instructor when I paid for lessons. I'm sure even with that, it is still very expensive!


 My lawyer told me that even a signed liability waiver will never stop someone from suing, it may just make them hesitate a bit. She said any attorney can get around it no matter how well it's written. Also, that people can go after not just the business but your personal assets also! 
Very scary!


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

Chasin Ponies said:


> My lawyer told me that even a signed liability waiver will never stop someone from suing, it may just make them hesitate a bit. She said any attorney can get around it no matter how well it's written. Also, that people can go after not just the business but your personal assets also!
> Very scary!


That IS very scary, makes me second guess getting into a business like this with so many roadblocks, legally speaking.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Chasin Ponies said:


> My lawyer told me that even a signed liability waiver will never stop someone from suing, it may just make them hesitate a bit. She said any attorney can get around it no matter how well it's written. Also, that people can go after not just the business but your personal assets also!
> Very scary!



This is why you MUST incorporate any business venture. It helps cover your personal ***-ets. :lol:


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

squirrelfood said:


> This is why you MUST incorporate any business venture. It helps cover your personal ***-ets. :lol:


 You can make your company a LLC (Limited Liability Corp) however they still go after the directors when a lawsuit happens:-(


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

and then you Counter sue.


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## STT GUY (Apr 23, 2014)

Chasin Ponies said:


> My lawyer told me that even a signed liability waiver will never stop someone from suing, it may just make them hesitate a bit. She said any attorney can get around it no matter how well it's written. Also, that people can go after not just the business but your personal assets also!
> Very scary!


Anyone can sue anyone for any reason. Its not hard to file a lawsuit. No weather that suit goes forward based on its merit or gets summarily dismissed is whats really important.

A proper waiver is absolutely essential. Also most states have equine liability laws as well. The key term is "Gross Negligence". This is a willful and wonton disregard for the safety and/or well being of others. 

My wife and I owned a company that taught high performance motorcycle riding on racetracks all over the USA. Speed of 175 (that's miler per hour for you Canadians...) were common. We've forgotten more about liability insurance than most will ever know. 

Set up as an LLC and keep assets shielded. Ask a GOOD attorney how to do this.


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