# Hunter Show Bias?



## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Do any of you have any experience with hunter horses being discriminated against because of color or breed? I had heard that but never placed much stock in it, until I showed a draft cross at a hunter show recently and was pretty much verbally attacked by the people sitting behind my parents in the stands. But I actually laid down a really nice course, and got a ribbon out of a class of 30, which was very exciting.

My trainer says that this show was her proudest moment of me, the fact that I had a good enough trip that I pinned "even riding Daiq". She said she faces the discrimination too because she rides a pinto, though he is a warmblood and son of Popeye K. 

I had always heard rumors of there being a bias, but I had always pretty much thought it was just an excuse why someone didn't pin, but my trainer is one of the most honest horse people I know, she won't tell you you did well unless you really did, and she admits herself when she had a bad show.

What do you guys think? Sorry I take so long to say everything haha.

(Of course, I do know that it depends on the judge, but I just want to know how common biases like that are, and to what colors and breeds they extend. Buckskin? Palomino?)


----------



## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

Yes, there definitely is in my experience.

I see more breed discrimination then color. QH, drafts, draft crosses, arabians, and paints aren't generally well received, by both spectators and judges at A shows and a majority of the B shows I've been to. I ride a TB and I sometimes get weird looks.

That's not to say that they can't do well, but yes, it exists.

And you ride with Jen, right? Her pinto is gorgeous, Mickey?


----------



## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Hahaha Supermane I forgot we knew each other! And yes, Jen and Mickey, and yes, Mickey is absolutely STUNNING and such a sweetie.


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

HAHA! Yup! Definitely my experience, although I had hoped that they had become a bit more open minded since I used to show (a little) my draft X about 15 yrs ago.......in MD! They seem to only like bay tb types, from what I have seen-how boring! And, frankly, altho I still love my H/J friends, the closed mindedness of the group in general is one of the main reasons I left H/J. Just found other things were fun too! (plus I now like my horse to have all 4 feet on the ground at all times, since I am older:lol. 
I have also found a bias against ANY NH......brought a horse back from NY a couple years ago, and they all looked at me like I was an alien when I did my NH stuff-until they saw him freeschool over fences at the point of a finger!:wink: The lesson kids at the barn kept asking "how do you do that?":lol:
PS-my shows were at Columbia back in the days with Star and Mehdi.....Still stay in touch with Star.....


----------



## KittyCat (Aug 6, 2010)

Yep Yep. Got it showing a plain bay OTTB against show ponies, a QH, and my trainer refused to let me show a draftX and an arab in hunters or bring them to the show period because he didn't want them in hunters or associated with his barn... I had to ride a horse I had ridden once before at the show instead... the QH and we still got some strange looks and didn't place in the larger classes.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I think it is far too common for people to look at the color of their horse as the excuse why their horse did not place well. Your (general) paint/appy/etc may not have placed because of so many things not associated with their color. It is just too easy for the rider/owner to blame the color and ignore the fact that the horse did not have clean lead changes or their knees were uneven or was hanging below the knee, etc.

I have seen many colored horses place just fine, when they deserved to place there.


----------



## JumperStride (Jul 1, 2010)

I think there is a bit of bias out there, but certainly not enough thats it's been blown up into. I had a kid show a mustang cross we have at our barn in hunter recently and she placed fine because the gelding has nice gaits, an adorable little tuck and goes like hunter judges want the horses to go in my area. And let me tell you, I love all horses but this guy is ugggggggggly lol xD


----------



## AfterParty (Jun 4, 2010)

It is common for the hunter ring to be VERY bias , thats why I plan to move to jumpers . Just you and your horse doing your thing 

The hunter ring is particularly bias towards thicker horses ( drafts etc ) and coloured horses appy's in particular. It's horrible to see since I've seen some lovely App's go in there and completely shine.

I also find that sometimes the hunter ring is bias in the way that its about who you are and who you know. Ive seen people have terrible rounds and not get there leads and someone else go in the ring and get all of there leads and yet the other person places above them , its a sin really. 

Some people work their asses off and cant place while others get on their thousands of dollar horses and place no problem with doing no work . Its just the people they know. Don't give up go in and show for fun


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

After party the hunter ring is biased (to use your word) against drafts because they do not move like they want in the hunter ring. That is not a bias. That is not having the right horse for the job. Just like you would not place well in a gaited horse class on an OTTB. Wrong horse for the job.

I have shown an appy in the rated hunter ring and we have gotten ribbons when they were deserved. 

A horse doing its job, no matter the color or markings, will place.

Your post sounds some what bitter. Yes, you have to buy the right horse for the job. If you have a horse that does not pick its legs up and knocks down rails you will not place in the jumpers. A person who spends the money and buys a fancy jumper will beat you. It is just how it is .... every where.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Exactly, Always.

You don't take a short, fat, conformational trainwreck of a horse into a halter class, do you? No, you take the one who most represents what the judges are looking for.

If you don't have the right horse for the job, it's hardly prejudice or bias against your particular breed.

I've seen loudly marked Appies go up against TBs and kick their butts in the show ring, because they were built properly for the job.

If your horse looks like a massive dump truck and moves like molasses in winter, that has nothing to do with breed bias. It simply means your horse isn't cut out for the job that you're asking him to do.


----------



## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Thank you SpeedRacer and AlwaysBehind! It is a huge pet peeve of mine when people think they didn't place because their horse was the wrong color or b/c hunter judging is too "political". I've read quite a few judge's cards and NEVER have I seen a judge put "wrong color" as a penalty. I showed a (loud) paint extensively on the A circuit one entire year and we won quite a bit, including flat classes. I've been beat out by pintos and palominos. Even a few apps (haven't seen a lot of them though) There is an ideal that the judge's are looking for and whoever gets closest to that ideal wins. Long low movement, floaty gaits with little to no knee action, very consistent pace that's not too fast or slow, nice bascule over fence, high tight and even knees, etc, etc etc. Sorry, but how many Arabs have a nice long low movement?? Usually, they aren't built for that. (not always, I know an Arab x WB that is a stellar mover) How many drafts do you know with no knee action that float around the ring? I have yet to see one! I know quite a few QH's who are spectacular at the lower levels, but simply can't keep up at the upper levels (how many QHs do you know who can easily lope down a line of 4" jumps on a 13+ foot stride? I can think of only one off the top of my head). Once you get to the upper levels they usually aren't built for the job, which is why the WBs and TBs tend to win. Lots of pintos and palominos have a lot of QH blood in them. They're in the same boat. Whoever puts in the best trip, whoever is the nicest mover, etc etc wins. If you do your research and find out how to judge a hunter class and watch enough shows, you'll see how unpolitical it is. I'm not saying at lower level schooling type shows the judging will always be accurate, but I went to a show a few weeks ago, watched a flat class of over 30 amazing movers and was able to pick out the top 8 who ribboned, including the winner.


----------



## reachthestars (Jul 2, 2010)

What some people don't realize is that by showing a different looking horse you are drawing attention to yourself - making any flaws MORE obvious than the rider on the 102nd plain bay of the day. It's the same reason if the year's coat style is navy, you don't wear gray unless you can really rock it. 

It's not always political, it sometimes come down to a less than perfect ride that was remembered better because the horse was unique.


----------



## Void (Jun 26, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I think it is far too common for people to look at the color of their horse as the excuse why their horse did not place well. Your (general) paint/appy/etc may not have placed because of so many things not associated with their color. It is just too easy for the rider/owner to blame the color and ignore the fact that the horse did not have clean lead changes or their knees were uneven or was hanging below the knee, etc.
> 
> I have seen many colored horses place just fine, when they deserved to place there.



^This

In the Hunters as long as the horse is an excellent mover, finds 8, and has a superb Jump, it should win. Any flaw will knock your points, and most people will find anything not associate with their ride to blame for their not doing well. (Heck I used to do it when I showed an Arab... because certainly he didn't place because he was an arab, not because we blew our lead change and were going around like a train)


----------



## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

Void, what is "finding 8"? I am newish to hunters and don't know all the lingo yet


----------



## Void (Jun 26, 2009)

kathryn said:


> Void, what is "finding 8"? I am newish to hunters and don't know all the lingo yet



Typically a Hunter course is comprised of 8 fences. 2 outside lines, a diagonal line and 2 singles. So finding 8 refers to finding 8 perfect distances to 8 fences.


----------



## kathryn (Jan 16, 2009)

OOOH that makes perfect sense haha I just had never heard the term before. Thanks!


----------



## horseanimal11 (May 19, 2010)

Personally, I think it depends on the judge.
I've seen appys and paints kick the bays' butts. You can't blame your horse's color if you lose, most of the time.
But, rarely, I've also seen them and their riders do an awesome job and lose to about 15 other horses, all bays, greys, and chestnuts, even though they deserved to win. It does happen.


----------



## qharabluver (Jul 22, 2010)

I have experienced biased judges with my arabian mare She is very much a hunter horse. But although we had an amazing ride the warmbloods and thoroughbreds got placed above us. I have also had judges love her and her movement so it just depends on the judge and their breed preference although they should not be biased they generally are.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

qharabluver said:


> although they should not be biased they generally are.


You are paying the judge for their opinion.

You can call their opinion a bias I suppose, but you are paying for what they think.

If you do not like how that judge thinks then do not show in shows where that judge is judging.



The reason one horse might place well at one show and not so well (assuming similar quality trips amongst similar quality horses) at the next show most likely has more to do with what one judge feels is important not the breed or color of the horse.

Some judges will place a horse with great form over the fences (nice bascule, knees to their eyes, even, alert) with a less than perfect distance over a horse that found all 8 perfectly but jumps flat or whose knees are not quite as even or who pins it ears as it jumps. 

So, saying it is a breed/color thing is most likely wrong.


----------



## GCSM16 (Feb 6, 2010)

my little mare is a grade something or other who just happens to be built like a small warmblood. Nothing special about her bloodlines but she is a great mover, honest jumper and when she is listening gets all the distances and changes. She would probably prefer to be a jumper haha, but I want her as a hunter and we do fine and dandy against the real warmbloods. 

side rant....and not because I am a hunter princess: Though I really think you are asking for trouble taking an arab into a real hunter show (not a schooling show)....they just don't have the conformation and movement that is required. I saw an arab do tremendously well in the 3ft and 3ft3 jumpers this year, but it would have failed epically in the hunters.


----------

