# Critique My ride...



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I tried to video me doing Intro Test C, but my SD card in the camera ended up corrupt. But here is the first trot circle anyway. Please critique what there is so far. 

What I see is, I'm tilting my pelvis back causing my lower back to arch, I need to fix this. Cin is a little fussy with the bit, I am going to work on correcting this after his dental appointment this Tuesday. I need to quiet my hands a lot more, not as bad as I used to be, but still pretty jerky on Cin's mouth. Posting needs some improvement, which I think correcting the pelvis will help, but I need to "control" my post a bit more.

As for Cin, I think his movement has smoothed out quite a bit, and his strides have improved. He could use some more work on powering from his hind end but I think he's getting there compared with our first rides over a year ago.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

First thing I saw, and the first thing the judges will see, is a horse that did not halt for the halt. You let him keep walking forwards. Even an unbalanced, unsquared halt with a horse that is totally ignoring you in favour of the scenery is going to get better marks than the horse that does not halt at all.

Secondly, I see a lot of resistance in the horse. He is constantly tossing his head, either in frustration or in pain. I would run the full check - teeth, back and saddle fit, to see if you can rule out something simple.


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## Jumper12 (Feb 2, 2012)

I agree that your horse looks aggitated about something! Its hard to say what exactly is agitating him but chiilaa definitely suggested some good possibilities. Also work on keeping a steady contact with your horse. Otherwise hard to say, at least on my computer the vid doesnt show up very clear. Good luck with your horse


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thank you.Yes hebwas agitated a bit as his buddy got to leave the arena and go eat,and he didn't. We also had huge ice chunks sliding around on the roof and falling outside that were just ready to gobble him up.

As for the halt,it may be my fault as I might be misinterpreting "halt through medium walk" which is what the test states. He is getting dental done on Tuesday and everything else has been checked out and we work with a chiro too. I will be trying again in a few weeks as I work on this some more and after I get a new sd card for the camera so it doesn't mess up again.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Wow, very enthusiatic! Cinny needs more guidance from your seat & legs and you need to follow more with your hands. It's coming though, I like what I saw, energy!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I agree. I've been off since December with a bad shoulder injury until the end of January and my seat went to heck. I can see it in the video, it's AWFUL. Therefore I am doing a lot of seat exercises, including riding without stirrups and a lot of stuff at home with a balance ball, yoga, etc.

Cinny's workouts have been out of the book 101 Dressage exercises and our primary focus is on opening and strengthening hips, and powering correctly. Secondary focus is lightness and looseness. I've just started him on something more regimented about 3 days ago where I pick 9 exercises out of the book and we do them that day. I mix in exercises to "build the canter" and improve his transitions as well. I think in a few weeks I need to step up the transitions though, especially downward transitions, they are very sloppy.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Thank you.Yes hebwas agitated a bit as his buddy got to leave the arena and go eat,and he didn't. We also had huge ice chunks sliding around on the roof and falling outside that were just ready to gobble him up.
> 
> *As for the halt,it may be my fault as I might be misinterpreting "halt through medium walk" which is what the test states.* He is getting dental done on Tuesday and everything else has been checked out and we work with a chiro too. I will be trying again in a few weeks as I work on this some more and after I get a new sd card for the camera so it doesn't mess up again.


You usually enter the arena at a trot......so you would then walk about 3 or 4 steps before you got to the center and then halt square, salute and then proceed

Super Nova


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Super Nova said:


> You usually enter the arena at a trot......so you would then walk about 3 or 4 steps before you got to the center and then halt square, salute and then proceed
> 
> Super Nova


Thank you for clearing that one up for me


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have to be frank about this, but he really does look physically uncomfortable. He is very much moving in a protective manner, a defensive manner. His stride is very short and choppy and the swishing tail and all, to me say physical discomfort. I know you have made a lot of inquiriies into this and I dont' want to come off as ragging on you, but his physical state is very evident in his way of going. It will probably be evident to the judge, too.

For yourself, you are bracing into your stirrups and posting off of them too much, and coming back into the saddle with the down stroke too much into the cantle and not into the very middle of the saddle. I would suggest shortening your stirrup one nothch and really work on bringing your lower leg under you more and using your leg, knee and thigh in the posting motion so that you can sit down softer and more centered in the saddle. 
Your hand has gotten much steadier and your position from seat up has also improved markedly.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Agreed Tiny, I see a very uncomfortable horse who is not moving well, and a heavy handed rider.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

You look much better to me. I like your position, you seem more relaxed and secure, particularly in the upper body. Posting looks better too, though I like tinyliny's analysis and suggestions above, for improving your posting. 

I don't know what to tell you about Cinny. He does look uncomfortable. I would not move him up to Training Level until you can get him a lot more accepting of the contact. I also would not attempt to sit his trot. He never really tracks up in the trot and appears somewhat mincing, I would be concerned that sitting would make matters worse. Whether this is a hold over from his bad Western training or somehow pain related, I can't really say. 

He is much more forward than the last vid you posted, and that's a good thing, but he really lacks rhythm. 

Judges tend not to penalize a horse that doesn't fully accept contact at Intro Level, but the expectation for Training Level is that the horse accepts contact and is on the aids - not with the face vertical necessarily, but actively moving into the contact. The head flipping/evading the bit by coming above it is penalized at either level. The best he could score on a Training Level test on the collective marks for submission would be a 4. If this is his best trot work, I'm thinking the mark collective mark for gaits couldn't be more than 5.

I definitely see some improvements since last time, but I am not sure your horse is 100%.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I see a heavy handed rider too! I don't exactly see the tail swishing though, I just see him holding it up and slightly to the side. The weight of the wrap seems to be bobbing (his tail goes to the ground to the point that he can step on it when he backs up, thus the tail wrap).

I see improvement, and I see improvement needed. I think his discomfort is me. I've also been told my saddle appears to be due for some maintenance in the form of restuffing and rebalancing. I found a Kieffer authorized place in Kansas City and I am going to work on getting it there sometime Spring/Summer. I have noticed that it throws me forward, where it didn't used to causing my pelvis to tilt backwards with my tailbone in the air, instead of sitting properly down into my seat bones. I guess I've been riding on my punanny and not really realizing it except for some recent constant lower back pain. I've ordered a Wintec Front Lift comfort pad Wintec Comfort Saddle Pad - Cushions & Wedges from SmartPak Equine from Dover to see if it helps until I can get the saddle tended to.

I've also put myself in full training until the show. NO SODAS, period. Actually no drinks except water and occasionally milk. Fresh meat and veggies, high protein, low carb and an abdominal, leg butt workout along with cardio. I'm slimming down, and getting fit. I think that will help Cinny tremendously.

Cinny is off for the next 3 days or so. He has his dentals/shots tomorrow and then we are doing only ground work with no bit for a couple of days afterward. He has a long history of bit shyness so I am making sure his mouth is not sore at all because I'm afraid of him associating the bit with any residual dental appointment pain and having to go back a few steps again. I think I may do yet another day of what I call "seat riding" where we go around the arena with dropped reins and I work on steering, stopping, everything from my seat only. It's something I usually make my daughter do because I don't like her yanking on him, but it appears I need to practice what I preach a bit 

I really appreciate everyone's views. Keep them coming, don't be afraid of being mean. Sometimes I need to be knocked down a few pegs because I get really cocky with my riding when I have no right to be.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Cinny, I knew you were much involved in making your horse as comfy as possible.

I question, however, that the feeling you get from the saddle is it being too low in front. I almost think it's the other way around; too high in front. This invariable causes a person to have a chair seat. I wouldn't say you have a total chair seat, but you do push a bit too far forward with your feet, and the having your tailbone roll backward, putting a bit too much curve in the lower back is very often the way a person posts when they are perpetually trying to "climb" a saddle that is too high in front (either due to poor fit, poor stuffing or a horse with a very uphill build or saddle set too far forward. any of those things). IT also results in the rider coming back to the saddle with their butt too far back, banging into the cantle.

Cinny isn't offering you a lot of impulsion to post off of, which makes it harder.
Would you consider working him in the arena a bit and asking him to really trot out as fast and as extended as he will? I'd like to see that and see if he moves any differently. you would then also work on having him stretch down and forward, something which I know is challenging for him and his bit worries. I also know you have done this stuff before, but I would love to see how he's doing this now.

you are inspiring me to eat well, too. I keep outgrowing my breeches!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Cinny, I knew you were much involved in making your horse as comfy as possible.
> 
> I question, however, that the feeling you get from the saddle is it being too low in front. I almost think it's the other way around; too high in front. This invariable causes a person to have a chair seat. I wouldn't say you have a total chair seat, but you do push a bit too far forward with your feet, and the having your tailbone roll backward, putting a bit too much curve in the lower back is very often the way a person posts when they are perpetually trying to "climb" a saddle that is too high in front (either due to poor fit, poor stuffing or a horse with a very uphill build or saddle set too far forward. any of those things). IT also results in the rider coming back to the saddle with their butt too far back, banging into the cantle.
> 
> ...


The part that makes me think that the saddle is too low in front is that I can't see to get my legs back farther without feeling like I'm falling forward. When I ride without stirrups and let myself go completely limp and relaxed with legs just hanging down, my saddle throws me onto my pubic bone very painfully. I'm constantly fighting to keep off the pubic bone. 

Part of our "getting Cinny fit" workout is 10 figure 8's in the arena where I lengthen the reins as much as I can and encourage him to reach out and extend as much as he possibly can without going into a canter. Then we do 5 more where I slowly alternate between asking him to collect, and asking him to go and try to keep my posting at the same rhythm. I try to play music that naturally matches his strides and try to post to that beat to make sure I'm keeping it the same if I can. I'll video this next time I ride him with a bridle so you can see what he's doing. When I ask to collect I slowly run my hands up the reins one side at a time with his foot falls. as each shoulder goes forward, I inch back a little on that rein. We go a few strides and then I let him gently slide the reins back through my hands. I feel like I barely inch the reins but as soon as he feels me start to inch, up goes the head. 

I have worked him off and on with a German Martingale, and he goes beautifully in it, but I don't want he or I to depend on it, and I feel like though it gives him a quick correction and release when he flips his head, it is just a meaningless fix that I shouldn't rely on instead of correcting what is causing him to do this.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'd like to see a video of those movements you describe. So hard to tell anything from a few short vids. Could you take a photo of the saddle on him, him squared on flat ground. Just to see how the saddle sits on him. For my curiosity sake.


I used to have a Crosby dressage saddle that I loved in that it gave a good feel to the horse underneath, but man, my lady bits took a beating in that saddle. Now, my Klimke saddle doesnt do this to me.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

You might be able to isolate what is causing the head tossing by trotting while up in half seat. If you don't normally ride in half seat, just stand up in your stirrups, fold at the hips and grab a little mane to stay quiet. If your horse suddenly trots around like butter with no head tossing, it's most likely the way you are posting or your hands. If you think it's your hands, go back to posting but hold either the front of your saddle or a crop in both hands to your hands stay quiet. If he's still fidgity, it's more likely where you're landing in your down-post. 

What type of bit it is?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

This is the exact bit I'm using, in a 5 inch. I measured his mouth when I first bought him by putting a shoestring through his mouth and holding it taught on both ends and then marking. It measured just a little more than 4 3/4 so I figure the 5 inch would be the best bet.

JP Korsteel Oval Mouth Copper Loose Ring Snaffle Bit | Dover Saddlery


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

So basically the kindest most gentle inviting bit on the planet with plenty of tongue room. Unless he's got a sharp tooth, it ain't the bit! 

Try the half seat exercise and see if he goes quiet. If so, it might be the saddle or just a matter of adjusting your downbeat of the posting. It does look like you are coming down in the back of the saddle instead of the center. Problem is he's throwing his head randomly, not every downbeat, so I doubt that's it. When my horse throws his head, he's telling me I've locked my elbows...again.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I just got back from Cinny's vet/dental appointment. My vet watched my full video of Cin working on Intro C, one where he was especially disobedient, and he says that Cin actually has nice movement and doesn't appear to show any lameness or back soreness that he can see. He thinks he is, however, capable of moving out a little more. What he DID see is a horse so preoccupied with what is going on in his mouth that he has trouble working or doing anything else at all. He says that all the head tossing, grinding, and not moving forward is all mouth related.

Cin had sharp teeth, and sores in his mouth. The vet did a nice thorough job of filing down (with the new type electric file) and showed me in his mouth before and after, and the sores, etc. Nothing was infected or abscessed. My vet thinks in a couple of weeks I should see a HUGE improvement in him, if not to call him back.

I am going to give Cin 2 or 3 days off (depending on the weather) and then bring him back in to work and see how he does. Then I'll work on more video probably next week sometime.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That's awesome! So nice to hear and I bet he will feel happier about his mouth in a day or two. I got to watch our dental vet do teeth the other day and it was very interesting to watch. He said that Mac had ulcers in his cheeks from sharp edged teeth. Poor boy! he had not had his teeth done in something like 4 years. Yet, he never complained.


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## Jumper12 (Feb 2, 2012)

some horses are so tough you would never know anything was wrong with them! Im glad that you found out what was agitating him so much!!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Yey! Easy fix!. Much easier to file down a tooth than fix a sore back. Should have put a bet down on the teeth!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

It's weird though because he had his teeth done a year ago, and he still did it after that time, but it was a different vet and a different method... but I assumed it was properly done anyway, but maybe not. Will be interesting to see how he is in a week or so.

I asked my BO how he was tonight and he said that Cinny was eating like a big pig when he left, LOL.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Cinny, have you ever tried eggbutt on him? For whatever reason my qh hated the loose rings couple times I tried them (exactly same mouthpiece BTW) and tossed her head. If you could borrow one from someone in barn, I'd give it a try.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Cinny, have you ever tried eggbutt on him? For whatever reason my qh hated the loose rings couple times I tried them (exactly same mouthpiece BTW) and tossed her head. If you could borrow one from someone in barn, I'd give it a try.


 
Kitten asks a good question. I use an eggbutt version of that same bit you have since the loose ring is a little too much movement for my horse. If she's still tossing her head in a week, that's worth a look.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Cinny, have you ever tried eggbutt on him? For whatever reason my qh hated the loose rings couple times I tried them (exactly same mouthpiece BTW) and tossed her head. If you could borrow one from someone in barn, I'd give it a try.


Ha ha, we tried an eggbutt for about a week and a half, he HATED IT. These are the bits I have used.

1) plain old loose ring sweetiron snaffle, when I first bought him and it was only used for getting him used to having a bit in his mouth and lunging, I never rode him in it because I was doing his first rides with a side pull.

2) Plain full cheek snaffle, I used this to have a little more turning power as he was learning. He learned to brace on it so I went to....

3) Fulmer. I used this for about 6 months and he did okay in it, but I think it had too much nutcracker action for his liking. My seriouis Dressage trainer had me go to 

4) Sprenger WH. He did fine in this, didn't seem to care for the roller and developed a reaction to the Aurigan, who knew???

5) Change to the copper snaffle in the link above. He really seemed to do well in it. Changed stables and trainers, new trainer had me do

6) Similar snaffle in an eggbutt. Head tossing and gritting was worse plus he would add in a side to side action similar to horses who "weave" in their stall, only he would do it while riding. He also started experimenting with bracing against it again,something he can't do with the loose ring.So I went back to

5) Copper snaffle and we have stayed here.

He is always accepting of this bit and we never have any bridling issues at all, sometimes he actually grabs it from me like it's a treat. I do occasionally have issues getting to "drop" the bit after riding when I go to take the bridle off and will try to grab it back. I've never had a horse do this before.

He seems to like it, it's show legal, he works decently in it and I'm hoping he will work even better after his dental, so we will probably quit with this one


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

I can't tell if you are in the video- but my understanding was when you are using a loose ring you should use bit guards. My horse was tossing his head, etc and it was because the bit was pinching him (it would slide in his mouth then end up pinching). And I know loose rings are known to pinch, State Line Tack has rubber bit guards for .99 cents (for a pair) which is where I got mine and they work pretty well and have held up so far.


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## yourcolorfuladdiction (Feb 19, 2012)

I would suggest a happy mouth snaffle (or French link) or a nathe flexible loose ring snaffle. Your horse is VERY backed off from the bit, some of this might be training, some of this might be his teeth, some of this might be sensitivity. But you never want loopy reins like you have, you want steady contact, you don't want him backed off and bound up. Tanking him out of a metal bit and placing him in something so soft it can't possibly hurt him might help (it helped my mare who has loads of mouth problems after having a terribly infected tooth before I bought her).

I started her off in the flexible loose ring nathe bit and the just converted all of her bits off of metal and now she actually makes contact into the bridle and 'takes' me (and wants to go into the bridle) instead of being backed off and me having to push her into the bridle all the time. I simple attribute this to sensitive bars and pain memory of someone riding her with a bit when her mouth hurt but now between happy mouths, rubber covered bits, and nathe bits I never have to ride her in a metal bit again (all that I have suggested are dressage legal hard plastic bits are even legal on the double bride [which I'm hopeful to move my pony into when she's ready]).

I think it'd be worth giving a try, I'm glad to hear all of the things you are doing (to and) for yourself. I just think that sometimes getting the pain memories of metal out of their head can improve their training by leaps and bounds. The only thing I will warn you of is sometimes if they chew on the happy mouths it can cause sharp edges that need to be sanded smooth (usually working your way up to 1000grit will make it smooth enough).

Also I know you've been working a lot with him on "exercises" but I'd suggest taking him back to basics and work with the USDF training pyramid:


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## yourcolorfuladdiction (Feb 19, 2012)

Notice that lightness and self carriage is at the top? Your horse is going to be strong and into the bridle for a while before he will be strong enough and educated enough to be light without being backed off in the bridle. I'd suggest bulking up your shoulders back and abs now because you're going to need that support system when he figures how to push his energy into (and sometimes through ) the bridle.

I hope this helps you in your wonderful journey through dressage! Remember at intro they're just suppose to understand the basics of "rhythm" "relaxation" and "connection" and they're suppose to have a pleasant way of going. At training level you refine this with some semblance of a "frame".

As an example I did the old intro 1 and 2 on this little mare who went around with her little nose stuck out and her ears forward. And she had a solid walk and trot and moved forward with a good rhythm for her size. We made a clear difference between corners and circles and she did execute a straight stretching walk. And she scored a 67 and 68. She wasn't in a frame, she wasn't an OUTSTANDING mover. But she achieved all the necessary requirements of intro.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Go To http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/cinnys-post-dental-update-feb-24-a-114222/ for the latest update


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm not going to read all the other comments, but I will tell you what I see.

First, I see a horse looking for your contact, and not finding it. The horse is searching for it, seen by the head bobbing. You need to send the horse forward into a constructive and CONSISTENT contact that will help contain the energy that your leg has created.

Your leg and seat create energy and the contact decides where that energy goes, and what it does. You have created some forward, and then let it all escape out of the hands.

Also, you must school an immobile halt. Do not accept the wiggly halt. One problem is that the horse dived onto his forehand at the halt. You must ride the halt in a much more forward manner so that the horse drives into the halt, not dives into it. Make the horse stand longer than normal, when schooling. Minimize the salute. I usually nod my head and, at the same time drop my hand to my thigh (not beyond the thigh). Minimal can be elegant.

Whenever the horse turns or changes bend, they will lose impulsion. The bigger the change, the more impulsion they lose. Your leg and seat has to increase the energy when going through corners, bends etc. If you don't, the horse will lose energy and likely weigh the forehand. Remember, sending the horse forward doesn't help you much without a consistent and constructive contact to contain that forward energy.

I hope what I typed makes sense to you! I really like Cinny and think you two will become a really nice team. Keep up the good work!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Cinny, have you ever *tried eggbutt on him*? For whatever reason my qh hated the loose rings couple times I tried them (exactly same mouthpiece BTW) and tossed her head. If you could borrow one from someone in barn, I'd give it a try.



Or a baucher. It hangs nicely and stays very steady in the mouth. have you tried on with two joints?


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

If you are going to continue to use a loose ring I would advise bit guards, even if the bit doesn't actively pinch him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

the only thing that i noticed was that your leg was alittle too far forward


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

SullysRider said:


> If you are going to continue to use a loose ring I would advise bit guards, even if the bit doesn't actively pinch him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bit guards are not legal in dressage shows, unfortunately. English loose rings are much less likely to pinch than the larger ringed western loose rings.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> I'm not going to read all the other comments, but I will tell you what I see.
> 
> First, I see a horse looking for your contact, and not finding it. The horse is searching for it, seen by the head bobbing. You need to send the horse forward into a constructive and CONSISTENT contact that will help contain the energy that your leg has created.


Actually, he had sharp teeth and sores in his mouth and needed dental, which he got Tuesday..... Up a few posts is a link to the latest update.


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