# Horse “biting” during tacking up... please h



## Aprilswissmiss (May 12, 2019)

The response you're describing is called being "girthy." This response is an indication of pain or could be a habit that was created out of past pain. This is not an attitude, this is not being mean - this is her trying to tell you "that hurts!!" The most common cause of a girthy horse is gastric ulcers, and when you tighten the girth, you're irritating those ulcers in her stomach. You should talk to the leaser about how long this behavior has been going on and ask if she/he could call a vet out to tell you what the best steps forward are in regards to diagnosis, treatment, management, and prevention.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I know you say she is medically sound, but it sounds like pain: back pain (possibly due to poor saddle fit) or maybe ulcers. Does she bit both when you put the saddle on her back and when you girth her up?

I am a cheater. When I had a lesson horse that had a reputation for biting when tacking up or hoof picking, I gave him hay while I was tacking him up. So I didn't have any problems.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm with @Aprilswissmiss on this.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

My gelding does the same thing but he will try and bite me. I've been using treats like a peice of carrot. He gets dancing around after saddle is on.

When I hook up cinch he starts tossing head pinning ears bitting at lead rope. Before I even try to do up cinch I give him a peice of carrot.

Grab cinch put strap through cinch ring,give another peice of carrot. Then slowly tighten cinch. I'll give him another peice of carrot in-between tightening keeps him busy. He still has his ears flat back, but doesn't toss head and bite at stuff. 

I also use alfalfa cubes broken into smaller pieces.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Aprilswissmiss said:


> The response you're describing is called being "girthy." This response is an indication of pain or could be a habit that was created out of past pain. This is not an attitude, this is not being mean - this is her trying to tell you "that hurts!!" The most common cause of a girthy horse is gastric ulcers, and when you tighten the girth, you're irritating those ulcers in her stomach. You should talk to the leaser about how long this behavior has been going on and ask if she/he could call a vet out to tell you what the best steps forward are in regards to diagnosis, treatment, management, and prevention.


The person I’m leasing her owns the barn and is the riding instructor. Since I only partial lease I don’t deal with the vet, farrier, etc. The owner/instructor helps around the barn and stays on top of this stuff, they even just took a horse to a vet hospital to get them checked for ulcers. Also her sister (the horse trainer at the barn) rides this pony once a week so I don’t think it’s medical. I think it’s just a habit. I do remember when she was younger (she was born and raised at this barn) they had to do some special thing related to the girth, put it on really slowly or something like that so maybe she used to have pain with it and it’s habit. But it’s mostly when I put the saddle on her back rather than the girth. I can’t say I’m too knowledgeable about this but one thing that’s certain is that it’s not medical and has been going on her whole life. I’m guessing it’s a habit, do you know how I break this habit?


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

ACinATX said:


> I know you say she is medically sound, but it sounds like pain: back pain (possibly due to poor saddle fit) or maybe ulcers. Does she bit both when you put the saddle on her back and when you girth her up?
> 
> I am a cheater. When I had a lesson horse that had a reputation for biting when tacking up or hoof picking, I gave him hay while I was tacking him up. So I didn't have any problems.


She does do it for both, mostly when I put the saddle on but she also does when I tighten the girth. She doesn’t do it after, more of as I’m lifting it to put on her back. The saddle was fit for her (it’s not mine, it’s hers) but I do think she’s getting a new saddle soon because hers is old and the leather is kind of wearing away.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Aprilswissmiss said:


> The response you're describing is called being "girthy." This response is an indication of pain or could be a habit that was created out of past pain. This is not an attitude, this is not being mean - this is her trying to tell you "that hurts!!" The most common cause of a girthy horse is gastric ulcers, and when you tighten the girth, you're irritating those ulcers in her stomach. You should talk to the leaser about how long this behavior has been going on and ask if she/he could call a vet out to tell you what the best steps forward are in regards to diagnosis, treatment, management, and prevention.


I forgot to mention along with the thing she used to have to have done with the girth, she wears a gel pad and has this grouper (I think it’s called?) that attaches to the back of the saddle and to her tail since she hates when the saddle is too far forward (which I don’t put it too far forward anyways, mostly just to make sure it doesn’t move forward during the ride) so I don’t think it'd be pain although I’m not positive.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

It's hard to know just based on what you're saying, but if she needs a crupper just for a normal ride, and she wants to bite when you put on her saddle, it sounds like maybe her saddle doesn't fit. At least, that would be my first guess.

I'm no expert here, so take it with a grain of salt. 

I know from experience that horse owners, barn owners, and instructors can all talk a great talk about the healthcare their horses get, and how well their tack fits, but a lot of times there is a lot of exaggeration and even misinformation there. And it's hard to talk about things like this to them when you're leasing, because they can be really dismissive.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

ACinATX said:


> It's hard to know just based on what you're saying, but if she needs a crupper just for a normal ride, and she wants to bite when you put on her saddle, it sounds like maybe her saddle doesn't fit. At least, that would be my first guess.
> 
> I'm no expert here, so take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> I know from experience that horse owners, barn owners, and instructors can all talk a great talk about the healthcare their horses get, and how well their tack fits, but a lot of times there is a lot of exaggeration and even misinformation there. And it's hard to talk about things like this to them when you're leasing, because they can be really dismissive.


It definitely is hard to talk to them about this stuff...They mentioned she’ll possibly be getting a new saddle soon so she doesn’t need the crupper. They said only if it’s the right price... and I can’t afford a saddle especially because I might outgrow her soon. What should I do until then? They probably won’t listen to me is there anything I could do on my own?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> She’s a pony and a mare so she has quite the attitude.


While ponies & mares often get bad attitude blamed on being a pony or a mare, and ponies are more frequently handled by kids & people who don't train them well, but that is by no means a 'thing' just because it is a pony or a mare. ;-)



> pins her ears, throws her head back and bites the air next close to you but not close enough to actually bite (most of the time anyways). The only advise I’ve gotten is to whack her but it (understandably) makes her want to bite me more and puts her in a bad mood


Biting when saddling can be a learned behaviour, if an 'assertive' horse has tried it & learned that it works for them, to stop the unpleasantness of being saddled. Far more commonly though, it's a reaction to pain/discomfort. Be that from saddle, girth, ulcers, etc. That she bites the air not you suggests that it's a pain response(be that current or previous) but she's learned that it doesn't work for her & that she will be punished if she actually bites AT someone. 

So... if she actually goes to bite YOU, then, almost regardless of cause, I'd punish her strongly for it, because it's a dangerous behaviour. Horses need *instant* consequences to associate cause & effect, so best in this case would be if you had a hoofpick, something spikey, that *she* would punish *herself* with, *as* she bit. BUT doesn't sound like she is biting you, so I wouldn't think punishment was appropriate for that. And remember, punishment may just cause her to become worse - after all, if you hurt her, she says 'ow!' with her teeth, to tell you to stop, then you hurt her further for THAT...

So if she is biting the air only, I would not worry about 'correcting' her, aside from looking to correct the *cause* of her discomfort. Which should, unless it's become a habit, mean she will stop doing it. If she doesn't stop & you are absolutely positive there is no physical cause, then, with reward based training you can modify this behaviour.



> She’s a healthy 11 year old pony and doesn’t have anything medically wrong with her.


How do you know this? Chiropractic vet or such checks her out? No ulcers? No sore back, etc? And saddle issues, hurting when being girthed or ridden are not generally classed as 'medical', so perhaps that hasn't been considered. If it all has, then I imagine this has come from past associated pain & become habitual.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

> She’s a healthy 11 year old pony and doesn’t have anything medically wrong with her.


How do you know this? Chiropractic vet or such checks her out? No ulcers? No sore back, etc? And saddle issues, hurting when being girthed or ridden are not generally classed as 'medical', so perhaps that hasn't been considered. If it all has, then I imagine this has come from past associated pain & become habitual.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the reply. I know there’s nothing medically wrong with her in regards to regular vet check ups. I’m not sure about anything else though as I only partially lease her. I know she’s possibly getting a new saddle but since I might outgrow her soon, I can’t afford one, and other people ride her, I have to wait until the owners of the barn and her want to. And they said only if it’s the right price a couple weeks ago and I haven’t heard anything else about it since. Is there anything I can do for now? She shows no signs of discomfort when I ride her (no bucking or anything). What are the other signs of stomach ulcers (although I think it’s from the saddle mostly not the girth)? Thanks!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

IT's tough when you have little control over the horse's care and training. I'm sure they take good care of this pony, so I am not saying they are doing her wrong. But, they are more likely into a just 'get it done' sort of attitude. I'd be curious as to how the others deal with this, or if the pony gives them any sass at all.


Here's a suggestion that you might enjoy. It's a form of clicker trainin. You will be training this horse to keep her head forward, facing forward, in order to recieve a treat.


YOu start by doing this away from saddling. just have her loosely tied. she CAN move her head around back to her shoulder, where you will be standing. But, you will encourage her to face forward. When she moves her head forward, you make a click sound, and bring your hand TO her mouth with a small treat.
She gets the treat ONLY if she has moved her head forward, at least some, and if she reaches back for it, use your fingers to tap her face and ask her to move it forward. 



Start small, tolerate some mistakes, use tiny treats. Do not give her anything if she reaches back and tries to mug you for treats. Ask for her to move her face forward, click and treat. Do this a lot. Maybe take a day where you don't ride, but spend a lot of time doing this instead. 



Your goal is that you stand by her shoulder , obviously holding a treat, and she will eventually know that as soon as she puts here head straight forward, you will click and treat her.


eventually, you do this while holding the saddle in one hand, treat in the other. *use a vocal clicking sound. Then, you will stand, wait, she goes forward, you click/ treat and put the saddle pad on. Rinse and repeat with saddle. Again for reaching under for the girth. (you do these actions while she is enjoying her treat. If you need more time, give a bigger treat, or a chewy one)


In effect, she will know what you are planning to do, but she will choose to allow you to proceed becasue SHE gets something out of it herself. When it's all done, treat again, and distract her with a short walk, and some hand grazing. 



Distraction is key, and making the process as pleasant as possible.


I do not think one should hit her for air biting, but I do think one can discourage her from reaching around BEFORE she actually bites. Using my 'program' will maker her want to stay facing forward, becauase that is the only place she EVER gets treated.


Meaning, make sure that ANY time you treat her, you tell her to face forward (gesture with your hand) , click, and treat. NEVER allow her to reach back and take the treat. You get her compliance, then YOU bring the treat to HER mouth, never the convers.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Didn't read replies when here before, now I am. But first...



Bettythepony said:


> I’m new to the horse forum but here goes nothing.


My apologies, forgot to say welcome to the forum!



> one thing that’s certain is that it’s not medical and has been going on her whole life. I’m guessing it’s a habit, do you know how I break this habit?


So, assuming not medical & esp as you say it's when you put the saddle on, rather than just when you do up the girth, I'd be thinking saddle fit was a prob. So I'd rule out that, before just attempting to teach her to 'put up & shut up'.

Assuming it is now purely behavioural - a habit - and she's done it her whole life(don't recall seeing how old she is) and that you only 'part lease' her, it will be difficult/impossible to stop it all together, but you might be able to teach her not to do it with you, if you're consistent & patient(could take months) & your timing is good. Very basically, I'd use Rambo's kind of tactic & reward her for NOT doing it whenever you can. 

Try to do things gradually enough that you can reward her & then back off *before* she feels the need to do it. If at first that's holding the saddle over her back but not putting it on, so be it, that's where you start. Hold it there a second, reward her for doing nothing, take it away. Repeat over, until she's perfectly fine about it, before laying it on her back momentarily, treating, taking it off... etc. 



> I forgot to mention along with the thing she used to have to have done with the girth, she wears a gel pad and has this grouper (I think it’s called?) that attaches to the back of the saddle and to her tail since she hates when the saddle is too far forward (which I don’t put it too far forward anyways, mostly just to make sure it doesn’t move forward during the ride) so I don’t think it'd be pain although I’m not positive.


It's a 'crupper'(you'll remember if you think 'crapper', being where it sits closest to!). Yeah, if she has to have a crupper for normal riding(rather than just going down steep hills & such) & gel pad to make it tolerable for her, doesn't sound like the saddle fits very well & is likely uncomfortable if not actually painful.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Can you ride her bareback?

& agree muchly with Tiny's training tip too - just didn't see second page when replied last!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> Didn't read replies when here before, now I am. But first...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I think it’s her saddle fit. The owner/instructor said that the saddle fitter came and they might buy her a new one if it’s the right price a few weeks ago... haven’t heard about it since. I feel awful that I can’t do anything especially if she’s in pain. I’m definitely going to try the click/treat thing until she can get a new saddle (and it’ll probably be a habit by then anyways) She’s 11 now, I kind of remember her when she was younger and I think she was really fussy about it but I don’t really remember. I don’t really know if me talking to them will change their mind if they are already making a decision and they’re on vacation now so... Is there some type of massage I could give her in case it is causing her pain? Thanks!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> Can you ride her bareback?
> 
> & agree muchly with Tiny's training tip too - just didn't see second page when replied last!


I wish! I can hardly ride with no stirrups for a few minutes so I don’t think I’ll survive a full bareback ride...


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

tinyliny said:


> IT's tough when you have little control over the horse's care and training. I'm sure they take good care of this pony, so I am not saying they are doing her wrong. But, they are more likely into a just 'get it done' sort of attitude. I'd be curious as to how the others deal with this, or if the pony gives them any sass at all.
> 
> 
> Here's a suggestion that you might enjoy. It's a form of clicker trainin. You will be training this horse to keep her head forward, facing forward, in order to recieve a treat.
> ...


Thanks I will definitely do this! I’m pretty sure she doesn’t give them sass (although I haven’t seen them tacking her up for a long time) so that’s what makes me question if it’s pain. But they don’t put up with it at all and she knows I won’t much unless she actually bites me. But as people are mentioning, she’s not biting me and never has, just the air so I don’t think punishing (for lack of a better word) her for biting will help. So basically what I’ll do is make a clicking noise when her head is forward and I bring the treat to her (not the other way around) and eventually I’ll be able to click and she’ll put her head forward automatically. Do I have that right? If she’s trained to go faster with a cluck, should I make a different noise and if so, what? Thank you!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Bettythepony said:


> I’m pretty sure she doesn’t give them sass (although I haven’t seen them tacking her up for a long time) so that’s what makes me question if it’s pain. But they don’t put up with it at all and she knows I won’t much unless she actually bites me.


I mean that she does give other people sass but not the trainer/owner of her


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Bettythepony said:


> Thanks I will definitely do this! I’m pretty sure she doesn’t give them sass (although I haven’t seen them tacking her up for a long time) so that’s what makes me question if it’s pain. But they don’t put up with it at all and she knows I won’t much unless she actually bites me. But as people are mentioning, she’s not biting me and never has, just the air so I don’t think punishing (for lack of a better word) her for biting will help.* So basically what I’ll do is make a clicking noise when her head is forward and I bring the treat to her (not the other way around) and eventually I’ll be able to click and she’ll put her head forward automatically. Do I have that right? If she’s trained to go faster with a cluck, should I make a different noise and if so, what? Thank you!*




not really. No, you don't click to make her do something. The click only comes when she has done what she knows is the right thing. YOu have to get her to move her head forward by either waiting until she does it by accident/happenstance, or, you signal her to move her head forward , by, for instance, waving your hand at her , sort of 'air pushing' her head forward. Or, even tapping her nose so that she moves it away from you if she has brought it htat close. 



The click only signals "YES!" that it! and reward is coming.It should come as close to instantly after the desired behavior is done as possible It is not a command. NEVER.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> I’m definitely going to try the click/treat thing until she can get a new saddle ... Is there some type of massage I could give her in case it is causing her pain? Thanks!


C/t won't hurt, excepting if it becomes associated with hurt - then it may not be effective in other areas of training you might want to use it - but it's not likely to help if she's reacting in pain. 

Some kind of massage... no. Would you like to be massaged on bruises? Just have to avoid causing any more. So sounds like now is the time to develop a better seat & ride bareback!


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## Rivo (Aug 22, 2018)

Bettythepony said:


> . So basically what I’ll do is make a clicking noise when her head is forward and I bring the treat to her (not the other way around) and eventually I’ll be able to click and she’ll put her head forward automatically. Do I have that right? If she’s trained to go faster with a cluck, should I make a different noise and if so, what? Thank you!


With my mare (who doesn't have this problem but is grabby with treats) I use the word 'manners' as a verbal cue to keep her head forward, instead of using a hand gesture just because that's what ended up sticking for her (would be interested to see how different horses respond to verbal vs. physical cues). You can use anything as a cue, just ideally not something that she might hear or see when she isn't actually being asked to do anything.

For the bridge (the click, it tells them that they've done what you want and they just need to wait a second while you get them a treat) you can use anything, again as long as she's not likely to hear it somewhere else and get her hopes up for food when there's none coming. I also cluck for forward so my bridge is whistle. Your bridge should be a sound that you're able to make over and over and have it sound the same every time, just so there's no confusion for the horse.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> eventually I’ll be able to click and she’ll put her head forward automatically. Do I have that right? If she’s trained to go faster with a cluck, should I make a different noise and if so, what?


As the others explained, no, the point of c/t is to create a 'bridging signal'(an association between the behaviour & a reward that may not come as instantly, or for that matter, all the time) that she has done right. 

Yes, if you already click/cluck your tongue as a 'cue' for some other behaviour, don't do that. That's why the 'clicker' part of c/t happened - it is a distinctive, short, sharp sound that wasn't likely to have other meaning to the horse. I personally just use the word 'Good!'


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## ManicDaisy (Dec 13, 2018)

I’m not super experienced, but I have dealt with a few snappy mares, and to some extent this kind of thing can be just something mares do to see if they can get their way. 

My pony mare used to pin her ears back every time I got on her back, but would cut it out once she knew I wasn’t going to get off. Basically, every time I asked her to do anything at first, I got the ear pin, and even sometimes an air-nip. But she’s doing it less and less as we build trust, and I make it clear I’m not going to back down.

Now everyone at the ranch is telling me how amazed they are that I’m riding her, as no one else wanted to deal with her before (and many were scared of her) and telling me how HAPPY she seems now that someone is taking care of her.

In my, albeit limited, experience, most horses don’t particularly love having their girth tightened. Even if you’re gentle, they use horse language—a hitched breath, a sigh, a foot stomp or an ear twitch to say, “Ugh, really?”

I’d do the same if someone tightened a belt around my belly!

So, I’d say that if she does the ear-pinning at other times when she just doesnt want to do something, maybe she’s just being grumpy/sassy. If it’s ONLY when the girth is tightened, and she’s a mellow ray of sunshine otherwise, then consider medical issues.

But that is just one perspective. Take it as you may.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

tinyliny said:


> Bettythepony said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks I will definitely do this! I’m pretty sure she doesn’t give them sass (although I haven’t seen them tacking her up for a long time) so that’s what makes me question if it’s pain. But they don’t put up with it at all and she knows I won’t much unless she actually bites me. But as people are mentioning, she’s not biting me and never has, just the air so I don’t think punishing (for lack of a better word) her for biting will help.* So basically what I’ll do is make a clicking noise when her head is forward and I bring the treat to her (not the other way around) and eventually I’ll be able to click and she’ll put her head forward automatically. Do I have that right? If she’s trained to go faster with a cluck, should I make a different noise and if so, what? Thank you!*
> ...


Ok so basically as soon as she turns her head forward I “click” and then give her a small treat? Thanks.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> Bettythepony said:
> 
> 
> > I’m definitely going to try the click/treat thing until she can get a new saddle ... Is there some type of massage I could give her in case it is causing her pain? Thanks!
> ...


I don’t think she’s in pain, maybe uncomfortable but when she gets a new saddle that’ll help if she is. I think she just doesn’t want to go for a ride (she’s lazy) or get her girth tightened (as someone else mentioned, if someone tightened your belt really tight, you wouldn’t just stand there). Although I’m not an expert so I don’t really know. She doesn’t buck or anything when I ride her (except in the winter) just a bit lazy. She is moody otherwise so I’m guessing it’s her personality (and just being a mare) I guess that’s true about the massage. Thanks!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Rivo said:


> Bettythepony said:
> 
> 
> > . So basically what I’ll do is make a clicking noise when her head is forward and I bring the treat to her (not the other way around) and eventually I’ll be able to click and she’ll put her head forward automatically. Do I have that right? If she’s trained to go faster with a cluck, should I make a different noise and if so, what? Thank you!
> ...


So I should have a separate cue for her head being forward and then after she puts her head forward, make the “click” (I’ll use a random 1 syllable word that she’s unlikely to hear) or just a “click” sound? Thanks!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> > eventually I’ll be able to click and she’ll put her head forward automatically. Do I have that right? If she’s trained to go faster with a cluck, should I make a different noise and if so, what?
> 
> 
> As the others explained, no, the point of c/t is to create a 'bridging signal'(an association between the behaviour & a reward that may not come as instantly, or for that matter, all the time) that she has done right.
> ...


Aright sounds good, I understand now. After she does something (in this case putting her head forward) I make my “click” noise and then give her a treat (eventually I wouldn’t always give her a treat, maybe just a pat) I probably wont use “good” as she hears that word a lot but I’ll figure out a different short word to use. Thank you!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

ManicDaisy said:


> I’m not super experienced, but I have dealt with a few snappy mares, and to some extent this kind of thing can be just something mares do to see if they can get their way.
> 
> My pony mare used to pin her ears back every time I got on her back, but would cut it out once she knew I wasn’t going to get off. Basically, every time I asked her to do anything at first, I got the ear pin, and even sometimes an air-nip. But she’s doing it less and less as we build trust, and I make it clear I’m not going to back down.
> 
> ...


Yeah, she’s not a mellow ray of sunshine otherwise haha. I agree that it’s probably just a grumpy pony mare but hopefully if she does get a new saddle she’ll be 100% comfortable. Also, good job sticking with your pony mare, she sounds like she’s really something... Thanks!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> I don’t think she’s in pain, maybe uncomfortable ... I think she just doesn’t want to go for a ride (she’s lazy) ... She doesn’t buck or anything when I ride her (except in the winter) just a bit lazy. ... She is moody otherwise so I’m guessing it’s her personality (and just being a mare)


You first said you didn't believe it was anything medical, but you've said the horse hasn't been checked out by a chiro or other bodyworker or anything. You said you didn't think she was in pain, but then after we discussed the specifics you agreed she might well be, but now you're saying you don't think she is again... Respectfully, it sounds here like you don't have much of an idea about that. 

'Just doesn't want to go for a ride' is not why a horse would do this for saddling. Remember, horses need *instant* associations to link cause and effect. Saddling is not riding, and horses are 'in the present' animals. They just can't rationalise abstracted ideas like that.

'Just lazy' could well be due to discomfort/pain too. Not necessarily of course, and bucking under saddle is not always about pain either, but... 

And if she's grumpy, moody with you, 'being a mare', etc, then instead of writing it off as 'she just is', it would be better to work out WHY does she have that 'personality' wih you(or wih everyone - does she display a nasty atitude wih horses she lives with too, or only with people?) What you can do to address he cause, develop a better relationship with her, so she doesn't have a bad attitude about what you want of her.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> Bettythepony said:
> 
> 
> > I don’t think she’s in pain, maybe uncomfortable ... I think she just doesn’t want to go for a ride (she’s lazy) ... She doesn’t buck or anything when I ride her (except in the winter) just a bit lazy. ... She is moody otherwise so I’m guessing it’s her personality (and just being a mare)
> ...


You’re right, I have pretty much no clue what I’m thinking about this so that’s why I started this forum... (isn’t that why everyone starts forums). After looking at someone else’s experience with it, I thought maybe it was similar to theirs. She is not “nasty” she’s just moody at least towards pretty much everyone (not sure if this counts: there’s this small space under her stall on one side and she tries to steal the other horse’s hay. They get all mad and she pins her ears and sometimes air bites very similar to when I tack her up) And I do have a great relationship with her otherwise so I’m doing click/treat to make that better... As I mentioned if she is in pain there’s not much I can do besides wait for them to get her a new saddle. She is just lazy about everything so I think it’s just her personality. I’m not saying everything is “just a mare” but I do think that’s part of it as they are more moody. I’d seriously love to figure out why and I have been since day 1... I’m not sure why it’d be if it’s not part of her personality. As I mentioned I have no control over her vet care so there’s not really much I can do. I don’t have control over her tack either as other people ride her too. I’m not allowed to ride bareback so... Not sure what else I’m supposed to do to make our relationship better (although we have an amazing relationship at everything else...)do you have any suggestions? Thanks


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Curious how often are you riding seeing this horse??? If only 2 or 3 times a week and in-between others are using her. Unless they deal with her same way,I just don't see her behavior changing.

Also not ruling out pain as a cause. If pain caused she'll continue to be nasty about being saddled cinched up. 

With my gelding pain was ruled out ulcers were ruled out. Saddle fit was done by a professional. So I know saddle fits no guess work going on.

I also work with my horse 7 days a week. So he's handled same way every single day. I saddle him and he's corrected same way every single time. He knows what to expect every time I saddle him. 

He always pins ears so I ignore it. As long as he doesn't turn to bite he's good. He tried one time to turn and bite me. His mouth meant my elbow ,he got a good hard bop in the mouth. I never made eye contact with him ,said nothing to him. 

It worked because he hasn't turned his head towards me while cinching up. I use treats but I decide when he gets them. So he isn't mobbing me for treats,that isn't allowed period. 

It real hard to change a behavior if everyone else who handles her, isn't on the same page for correcting behavior.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

rambo99 said:


> Curious how often are you riding seeing this horse??? If only 2 or 3 times a week and in-between others are using her. Unless they deal with her same way,I just don't see her behavior changing.
> 
> Also not ruling out pain as a cause. If pain caused she'll continue to be nasty about being saddled cinched up.
> 
> ...


I unfortunately can only ride her 3-4 days a week since I can’t afford a full lease only partial lease. Unfortunately other people ride and tack her up too. I’d ride every day if I could but I can’t. She might (fingers crossed) be getting a new saddle (a professional saddle fitter came 2 weeks ago and the owner told me that as long as it’s the right price she’ll get her a new one). I’ll be riding 3 more times this week so I’ll at least try click/treat and if it doesn’t work then it doesn’t work. Worth a try. Other people don’t handle her the same way as me but I’ve taught her treat manners and other people just give her treats whether she turns her head away or not so I’m hoping it’ll have a similar outcome. And nobody else is riding her this week so at least that’ll give me a few times to give it a try without someone not doing it. Thanks!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Does this pony ever get a full day off? She ever get a day to just hang out in the pasture/paddock? being ridden EVERY day can really sour a horse, especially if it's a bunch of different people. She may need to have some days off inserted to 'freshen' her.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

tinyliny said:


> Does this pony ever get a full day off? She ever get a day to just hang out in the pasture/paddock? being ridden EVERY day can really sour a horse, especially if it's a bunch of different people. She may need to have some days off inserted to 'freshen' her.


Yes.. she gets ridden 3 times typically (sometimes 4 like this week) by me and once if I ride 4 times (not often) or twice if I ride 3 times by other people... that’s 5 times per week. Two full days off


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> You’re right, I have pretty much no clue what I’m thinking about this so that’s why I started this forum.


Yeah, but you have said, definitively it's not medical, that you don't think it's pain... I can't know, just from your words, but it sounds very likely o me, from what you've told. I appreciate also she is not your horse & you're not responsible for her vetting or such. 



> She is not “nasty” she’s just moody at least towards pretty much everyone ... She is just lazy about everything so I think it’s just her personality. I’m not saying everything is “just a mare” but I do think that’s part of it as they are more moody. I’d seriously love to figure out why and I have been since day 1... I’m not sure why it’d be if it’s not part of her personality.


My experience with mares(working with countless mares, geldings & a few stallions over the years) is that they are NOT generally 'more moody'. But if they have a physical problem, regardless of what sex they are, they can be 'just moody' & 'lazy' etc. Of course, it can also be due to how they're trained, handled, managed, that causes them to be more 'moody' or 'grumpy' or 'aggressive' or 'lazy' too...



> As I mentioned if she is in pain there’s not much I can do besides wait for them to get her a new saddle. ... I’m not allowed to ride bareback so...


You can _choose not to contribute_, not to _cause_ her pain & be part of her problem yourself, by not saddling/riding her. You could also _offer_ to get a chiro vet out to her yourself, if they won't do this, so you can have a better idea of whether it is pain or not. I find it strange that they've specified you're not allowed to ride bareback, esp when there's an acknowledged saddle problem, as that may allow you to ride her without issue, but oh well...


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> Bettythepony said:
> 
> 
> > You’re right, I have pretty much no clue what I’m thinking about this so that’s why I started this forum.
> ...


True but think about it some people just naturally come across as moody. Same goes for horses (their personality). Sure, sometimes it’s due to something else but others it’s just their personality, same goes for horses. As I said I know it’s not medical in regards to regular vet, farrier, etc. visits. In my opinion, mares can be more moody due to hormones that the geldings don’t have (as much as at least), I’ve never handled a stallion so I don’t know about that. I could do the chiro thing but I’m not an adult and my parents wouldn’t call them, they’d just write it off as “oh well if it was a problem then the owner/trainer would’ve called them” so I can’t really get a chiro vet out although I wish I could. If I stopped riding, she’d be ridden anyways by the horse trainer and other riders. Thanks.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> True but think about it some people just naturally come across as moody.


Yeah of course. And if you want to get along with them well, it's up to YOU to work out ways of NOT making them 'moody', or just accepting them as they are. But again, this is ASSUMING there is no underlying 'real' reason for their 'moodiness'.



> As I said I know it’s not medical in regards to regular vet, farrier, etc. visits.


I thought you said you _didn't know_ if owners had ever had the horse checked out with a bodyworker or any such? And while hoof pain IME is not a reason for that kind of behaviour, how do you KNOW farriery is no issue? Do you know a lot about hoof form & function yourself, to be able to assess that?

And as already mentioned, it's debatable whether pain/damage from a saddle can be thought of as 'medical', but that, IMO is 'by the by'. What matters is not semantics but that you have indicated it is highly likely o be causing her discomfort/pain.



> In my opinion, mares can be more moody due to hormones


My own opinion is from my decades of experience, with many & varied horses, working with other people's horses regularly, not just my own. IMO, in odd cases, where mares have particularly strong 'seasons' or they have a cyst so hurting or such, they can OCCASIONALLY be crabby, AT THAT TIME OF THE MONTH, for no (other) apparent reason. That's not the idea you have given about her, and no, IME mares are not 'more moody' generally. 



> If I stopped riding, she’d be ridden anyways by the horse trainer and other riders. Thanks.


Yes, I appreciate you're not the only rider, but the bottom line there is, are YOU willing to cause her pain, just because you want to ride her?


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

This definitely screams ulcers. My old old BO kept saying my mare was being a brat, or to smack her when she pins her ears while being groomed/tacked, but I was like no...no, something's bothering her. 

Like this mare, something is bothering her. No, she's not trying to get 'out of work'. But she's uncomfortable, so of course she's not happy.

Everyone always assumes mares are moody & blah blah, but I'm sorry, no. That's just a misconception. :icon_rolleyes:

I'd get her scoped for ulcers. Also check saddle fit. There's always a reason.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Op is a kid horse isn't hers so unless her parents. Want to fork out money on horse,they don't own. 

Highly doubt anything will change. Horse will continue to get ridden whether in pain or not. Op is in a tough spot being a kid ,and really not having say in what gets done for horse. 

If she doesn't ride horse others will so either way horse gets worked.

Ulcers can make any horse moody, made my gelding very moody, crabby. So doesn't need to be a mare to be moody. Hate when people label a horse because of sex, or being a certain breed


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## Dragoon (Nov 25, 2013)

Hiya, my 2cents...
What you are using the word moody to describe, I call 'talking'. 
I ride an OTTB mare, that is not mine, who 'air bites'. She is the most expressive horse out of the herd I take care of. You never have to wonder what her opinion is, of anything. The hay, the water, the weather, the sound she just heard. She is always telling me something with groans, snorts, nudges, and surprisingly mobile facial signals. She is also the dominant mare. The other horses are harder to read, though the submissive mare is showing her opinion more lately. It has taken three years!

But in regards to the OTTB being girthy...I too, was told not to let her do that, to hit her. That felt wrong to (newbie) me, so I never have. I have watched her. She doesn't actually bite, for one. And it has nothing to do with a saddle. Or current pain. She will do it if I stand at her side and touch her lightly. It is a habit. If I stand on her off side and place my hand on her girth, she snaps the air at her on side. The fact I am not even there, tells me this is a long time habit. She was a racehorse, certainly she was caused pain in the past. All I can do is, be kind to her now. 
I have an agreement with my friend. As long as she does not bite me, she can keep 'talking' at me, reminding me to go slow, not do it so tight. I am nice to her, and she takes me riding. Horses are generous animals.

The usual disclaimer: I have had body massage and chiro out, and asked about her saddle fit. Was told it was ok. She has an old racing injury that means we only walk and trot. The actual owner of this horse never intends to ride her, so I'll never know what is up with that leg unless I can win the lottery and buy her. I would buy her if I could, I like her. She likes me.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> Bettythepony said:
> 
> 
> > True but think about it some people just naturally come across as moody.
> ...


Look, I really don’t want to argue I just want help. As I said multiple times I know it’s nothing in regards to REGULAR vet and farrier visits and such I don’t know about the body work thing. Ok I guess mares aren’t more moody mostly that’s just what I thought I guess I was wrong sorry... I do get along with her pretty well otherwise so please don’t assume we don’t get along because of one issue. No I don’t know about hoofs, etc. but I do know she just got checked by the farrier and got pads or whatever they’re called in the front hooves. I don’t want to cause her pain but I’m not sure if she actually is in pain. And remember I’m a kid I can’t just call a vet or talk to the owner, they don’t give a crap what I think they will just dismiss me. And my parents don’t believe me either “the owner would’ve done something about it. She’s not our pony, we’re not calling a vet”. If I could I’d buy her a perfect saddle that fits perfect, make sure she gets checked by a chiro or whatever and do everything you’re suggesting... But I can’t trust me I want to so much I’m almost in tears but I literally can’t...


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

PoptartShop said:


> This definitely screams ulcers. My old old BO kept saying my mare was being a brat, or to smack her when she pins her ears while being groomed/tacked, but I was like no...no, something's bothering her.
> 
> Like this mare, something is bothering her. No, she's not trying to get 'out of work'. But she's uncomfortable, so of course she's not happy.
> 
> ...


I want her to get checked and everything so bad but as I’ve said I literally can’t and my parents won’t... What are the other symptoms of ulcers, I want to see if she has any. Ok I get that mares aren’t more moody sorry that’s just what I thought but I’m wrong and I understand now, thanks.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

rambo99 said:


> Op is a kid horse isn't hers so unless her parents. Want to fork out money on horse,they don't own.
> 
> Highly doubt anything will change. Horse will continue to get ridden whether in pain or not. Op is in a tough spot being a kid ,and really not having say in what gets done for horse.
> 
> ...


Thanks for understanding I think people are thinking I’m being too lazy or whatever to call a vet or talk to the owner.. But I’m a kid I really can’t... I agree about the mare thing now, I was wrong.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Dragoon said:


> Hiya, my 2cents...
> What you are using the word moody to describe, I call 'talking'.
> I ride an OTTB mare, that is not mine, who 'air bites'. She is the most expressive horse out of the herd I take care of. You never have to wonder what her opinion is, of anything. The hay, the water, the weather, the sound she just heard. She is always telling me something with groans, snorts, nudges, and surprisingly mobile facial signals. She is also the dominant mare. The other horses are harder to read, though the submissive mare is showing her opinion more lately. It has taken three years!
> 
> ...


Yeah as long as she doesn’t actually bite it’s ok with me. I can’t really call the vet although I wish I could. And my parents won’t, they just think if there was a problem the owner would’ve done something She hopefully is getting a new saddle soon (a saddle fitter came a couple weeks ago and the owner said that they’ll probably get her a new one🤞). I’d buy this pony if I could too. Thanks


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Bettythepony said:


> Look, I really don’t want to argue I just want help. As I said multiple times I know it’s nothing in regards to REGULAR vet and farrier visits and such I don’t know about the body work thing. Ok I guess mares aren’t more moody mostly that’s just what I thought I guess I was wrong sorry... I do get along with her pretty well otherwise so please don’t assume we don’t get along because of one issue. No I don’t know about hoofs, etc. but I do know she just got checked by the farrier and got pads or whatever they’re called in the front hooves. I don’t want to cause her pain but I’m not sure if she actually is in pain. And remember I’m a kid I can’t just call a vet or talk to the owner, they don’t give a crap what I think they will just dismiss me. And my parents don’t believe me either “the owner would’ve done something about it. She’s not our pony, we’re not calling a vet”. If I could I’d buy her a perfect saddle that fits perfect, make sure she gets checked by a chiro or whatever and do everything you’re suggesting... But I can’t trust me I want to so much I’m almost in tears but I literally can’t...


You obviously care I give you credit for that I really do. It's hard when you have no say in the matter. All you can do is your best don't get discouraged. Things have a way of working out for the best. 

Don't know how old you are but your post are well written. Give that pony a hug and a treat she deserves it. Don't be so hard on yourself only so much you can do,being a kid with no say. Good for you for noticing pony is grumpy not liking being saddled. 😊


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

rambo99 said:


> Bettythepony said:
> 
> 
> > Look, I really don’t want to argue I just want help. As I said multiple times I know it’s nothing in regards to REGULAR vet and farrier visits and such I don’t know about the body work thing. Ok I guess mares aren’t more moody mostly that’s just what I thought I guess I was wrong sorry... I do get along with her pretty well otherwise so please don’t assume we don’t get along because of one issue. No I don’t know about hoofs, etc. but I do know she just got checked by the farrier and got pads or whatever they’re called in the front hooves. I don’t want to cause her pain but I’m not sure if she actually is in pain. And remember I’m a kid I can’t just call a vet or talk to the owner, they don’t give a crap what I think they will just dismiss me. And my parents don’t believe me either “the owner would’ve done something about it. She’s not our pony, we’re not calling a vet”. If I could I’d buy her a perfect saddle that fits perfect, make sure she gets checked by a chiro or whatever and do everything you’re suggesting... But I can’t trust me I want to so much I’m almost in tears but I literally can’t...
> ...


Thanks this just made my day! I guess English class really does pay off haha. She deserves 1000000 hugs and treats.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I think we all understand it's not your horse & that you're a kid so restricted in funds & options for those reasons. You're in a difficult situation & I don't think anyone is blaming or judging you here, just trying to teach you better, get you thinking about it more objectively. For my part, your replies were rather contradictory - & I get that too, you're confused & you've been told stuff that's contradicting what others have told you - so I was just trying to explain differently what you didn't seem to get.

And no need to apologise because you didn't know something or had the wrong idea - we're all learning new stuff every day of our lives! Including that you shouldn't take anyone's word blindly - critical thinking is a vital skill that too few don't seem to have much of, so think about that too! ;-)

Oh and(not having a go, just a tip) you don't have to keep repeating yourself to each person, as it's all there on the thread for all of us to see. You also don't have to quote whole posts when replying - the quote thing is best used when you want to quote bits out of replies to make your reply clearer, more relevant. You could just mention the poster you're replying to, esp if their reply is short..


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## Dragoon (Nov 25, 2013)

Hey, Bettythe Pony, don't let an Internet forum make you feel bad. You seem like a caring person to even wonder and ask about your pony friend's behaviors. Soooo many kids do not consider how they feel. Horses know when you care, and that is what matters. I have learned the horse world is mean, mean, mean...ask a question, but say as little as possible. Some forumites seek to help, and some seek to find fault, IMO.

Try not to feel guilty about riding her. Horses live in a human centric world, and they need jobs. Feel bad about the equines no one wants to ride, those don't have a secure future...As you said, Betty will be ridden by someone. By being her someone, you can be a kind rider, and her voice. Keep giving hints to the owner that she seems unhappy about the saddle. Be nice about it and tell her how happy Betty makes you. Gentle reminders may be the right stimulus...she may see the pony as being more 'deserving' an expensive saddle if she's hearing good things. You may outgrow Betty someday, but it would be nice to think you helped each other, in your time together.
Much love to you, and keep acting on your kind instincts.

And by the way, geldings are neutered, so are influenced less by their hormones than a mare. Most mares are intact. So as a very general statement, mares being moodier than geldings is not wrong. Hormones however, are just a tiny factor in what makes a domestic horse's personality...so everyone is right!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Thanks everyone and thanks @loosie for your help about the forum. I’ll try to drop subtle hints to the owner but she has told me if Betty gives me a problem with tacking up, to tell her and she’ll deal with her so I’m not sure if that would help. But I’ll try. And I’ll keep working on click/treat just in general as it seems like something good to work on anyways. Yesterday, someone told me my saddle was too far forward so I’ll have to make sure I don’t do that anymore and maybe that could partly be why. But when I got off and fixed it Betty bit the person holding her when I put the girth back on so maybe not. Oh well at least she normally doesn’t actually bite.


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## vonlora (Mar 28, 2011)

my two cents:
We call it cinchy and my current mare has it. She is "moody" when in season but otherwise great.
Same thing, thou if she can, she will connect. I have had her scoped, chiro and nothing. Thought it was a bad saddle fit, but she does the same thing bareback ( I use an uncinched pad to keep my pants clean). Still will do it. Would rather stand in her corral than go for a ride, but is ok once she realizes she is going anyway.



So if you are just looking for something to keep you safe, just cross tie her and no problems.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Dragoon said:


> Try not to feel guilty about riding her. Horses live in a human centric world, and they need jobs. Feel bad about the equines no one wants to ride, ... Betty will be ridden by someone. By being her someone, you can be a kind rider,


I so disagree with all that. Horses DO NOT 'need jobs' in the least. Horses more often than not don't even WANT jobs, it is unpleasant to them to have to 'work' for humans. But they're easy beasts and put up with a whole lot that's not nice or not good for them. Certainly don't feel sorry for horses that don't get ridden! I do not, in the very least, believe people shouldn't ride horses, but the more I've learned about their physical wellbeing over the years - body issues directly due to being ridden for eg - the more I've seen that people either don't understand/see, or don't care to be truly considerate of the horse. And horses being such stoic, easily 'commanded' beasts just put up with it, put up with pain, put up with damage, until finally it gets to a point that it causes lameness or such, by which time it can be so chronic, so far along that it is hard/impossible to remedy. 

Just because she will be ridden and hurt by others is just NO ARGUMENT whatsoever for being blase about hurting her yourself. Just because you're 'nice' to her doesn't negate that it's causing her grief. I personally would indeed feel guilty about being part of her problem. 



> So as a very general statement, mares being moodier than geldings is not wrong.


Interested to know, do you(or anyone else reading) have any actual 'hard evidence' of this assertion, because I've been unable to find any(& have looked, because it's such a commonly held assumption), and it is not correct, IME.

Ed to add; IF - I'm not trying to imply riding horses always causes suffering, horses never can learn to enjoy 'work', etc. I appreciate that current pain for this pony too is not a given, but as said, sounds likely to me.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> Interested to know, do you(or anyone else reading) have any actual 'hard evidence' of this assertion, because I've been unable to find any(& have looked, because it's such a commonly held assumption), and it is not correct, IME.


I personally haven’t seen any. But as someone mentioned the geldings are neutered and most mares aren’t. That means most mares have more hormones. As I know now, that doesn’t always mean they’re moodier and hormones are microscopic compared to their actual personality. But I do know that all animals, horse or dog, when fixed (spayed/neutered) have less hormones and therefore can be less moody but that’s not always the case so no I haven’t seen any actual evidence.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> Just because she will be ridden and hurt by others is just NO ARGUMENT whatsoever for being blase about hurting her yourself. Just because you're 'nice' to her doesn't negate that it's causing her grief. I personally would indeed feel guilty about being part of her problem.


I do feel guilty and I know this will sound stupid but this is how I feel. After thinking about this I don’t want to ride her until she gets a new saddle for her sake. But I don’t know how I can just say I’m not riding Betty until she gets a saddle. I feel like I’ll be judged and they’ll tell me it’s not the problem. I know she’s more important for that but I’m shy and I don’t know if I’ll be able to say this. And I can’t stop my partial lease without a 30 day warning anyway (not that that’s an excuse either). This will sound stupid too but I’m scared to tell the owner and my parents this. My parents get annoyed when I think there’s something wrong with my rabbit so I’m not sure how they’ll react to this (they’re great, but this is a typical me, worried about nothing even though I don’t think this time its nothing). I’m really not sure what I should do. I know I should say something and I can’t stand the thought that Betty has been and will be in pain but I’m not sure what/how to say it.


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## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

You don't have to ride to enjoy time with your lease mare.  Maybe for the time being you could do some ground exercises with her. Do you know how to lunge? This could be a good time to learn (with help, not something to do on your own). Or work on in hand leading, backing, turns, etc. Maybe some trick training, with owner's permission. 

There is so much you can do with a horse that doesn't involve riding. If you are spending your lease days with her and enjoying that time, then you are getting your money's worth, imo. That said, if you want to ride again and the owners don't get her a fitting saddle, you are within your right to end the lease and look for a new one. There is nothing wrong with wanting to ride and wanting a horse who you can ride.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I totally understand you don't have control of the situation. :hug: You are trying to do the right thing. I just hope that whoever does have control, they do the right thing by this mare. :sad: Because soon enough, she will be blamed for her 'behavior' & misunderstood, which is unfair to her. I hope the owner wisens up. Keep us posted.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

@*Bettythepony* - How does she act when you are riding? Could you take a video on your next lease day and post it? That might help people see her attitude/expression under saddle and give you more feedback. Could be she's learned this "warning" habit when tacking up but actually is comfortable enough when ridden. Or, it could be clear from her expression that she _is _obviously uncomfortable wearing that saddle and people could help you see the signs she's giving, and you could try to share that with her owner.

I don't want to put words in @*Dragoon* 's mouth, but I interpreted that post as saying, horses are living in a person-centered world, and there are very few people who can afford to have horses without those horses having a job. We don't know the OP's lesson barn situation, but I think most of us have experienced that lesson horses have a tough life. And, once a lesson horse can't be ridden, the future can turn bleak for many of them. So even though it can be a hard life, they may have things better when they can perform their job then when they are considered "unusable." 

Believe me, I don't agree with people who cast off their horses once they aren't "usable," but I certainly see it happen every day just from browsing through FB. I have two retirees here who are physically sound enough that they COULD be ridden, but they sure don't mind not having a job! But if I didn't have space for them at home, it would be tough to spend $500/month for each of them to be retired at a boarding barn and not be ridden at all.


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## Dragoon (Nov 25, 2013)

Loosie, I Entirely! get what you are saying. Horses are slave animals, their bodies are destroyed, some fast, some slow, for human entertainment. 
I work at a boarding barn, its a small one, cheap board. I see what happens to the cheap horses owned by the less knowledgeable ( for lack of a better description) owners. I see the ads on the net for the horses who have work limitations (age, injury, too small etc.) and are for sale. The seniors being dumped make me tear up, every one of them! Why haven't they earned their retirement!? Why?! They gave their only commodity, their body, to these owners, and the.y lose their homes. It is a harsh truth that the vast majority of horses must earn their keep in order to have a place to live. This is where I'm coming from. I take care (feed, water, and poo pick) of a herd. I am concerned for each one, but everyday I see the reality that only the rideable ones have owners that come, have grain provided, have bills paid on time, have a voice. Have a value should the disinterested owners decide to get rid of this horse that they never visit anyway. One lady comes once a year. She came a few times one summer with her grandkid, but her horse is old, neglected,and crippled with old race injuries. He cannot trot at all and limps when walking.The kid had no interest in riding her horse. So she doesn't come. He needs care, pain meds, a Cushing test, SOMEthing. He'll never get a new home...who knows how long he'll have this one...

I don't have time to type out each horses story, nor do I have any desire to. I fully believe that the best chance a horse has of being valued by humans in general, is to have a job, even if that job is being pretty. The lucky ones earn a retirement. Like my old gelding. I cannot afford a horse, but I work long hours and spend every penny on him so that he is safe. He is unrideable, and fading on me, but everyday with him in it is a gift. I wish all horses had a human to be their guardian, I see so many that don't. 
An equine needs every human friend it can get. Especially the cheap horses. The ponies, the ex-racers, the old, the homely grades, and the worn out schoolies. I have one each of these here...


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

I’m not going to give up on her or anything I’ll still love her no matter what and whenever she’s unridable (she’s broken her leg not too bad luckily in her paddock and fractured her scull also not bad either) and I groomed her every day I came to ride a different horse and it’s not like I’ll stop riding her forever or anything, just until she gets a new saddle. And they still give her food and all that when she’s been injured as well. The owner/instructor loves her very much, she raised her and Betty was born at this barn.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

I don’t know how to do add a video but I’ll add some pictures of me riding her (this problem has been going on ever since I started riding her and most of these pictures have been within the last few months). She typically is very lazy when I ride until we jump and then she gets all excited. But lately she’s been bucking (mini bucks) when I ask her to go faster (although it’s only happened in the indoor arena when it’s too wet to ride outside or when it gets colder). Today I rode her because it was only a hack and I went easy on her. But she was lazy and when I tapped her lightly with my crop she bucked (she normally does this in the winter, not the summer). I talked to my parents and they said that they don’t know and we should wait until the owner/riding instructor gets back from her vacation to do anything. If I bug them about it they’ll get annoyed so I don’t really know what to do. Any suggestions?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Firstly thanks Egrogan for giving your interpretation of dragons words. The way they put it, sounded like they just didn't care much about riding a horse in pain, which horrified me, that not only would they do that but they would advise others to. Tho I know that kind of attitude is sadly far from uncommon.


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## ManicDaisy (Dec 13, 2018)

I just want to throw in that it can be hard to know what a horse “wants.” Just because they do a behavior doesnt mean they dont enjoy the thing that comes AFTER the behavior.

My gelding gets it in his head sometimes to step away from the mounting block. It’s annoying, and then I have to train him all over to stand still for mounting.

But does this mean he doesnt like to be ridden?

The other day, he saw me riding the other horse I care for in the arena, and he stuck his head in, looking at me balefully, as if to say, “Why are you riding her and not me?”

So when I took her out to pasture, I fastened his rope like “reigns” and brought him to the fence so I could climb on. I was SURE he’d step away, as it’s hard to line up just right with the fence. But no. He stood still while I got on. Then I just let him carry me. He took me for a ride around the pasture, and finally back to the corral. Seemingly pleased with himself that HE was the horse I ride. 

My point is that just because a horse doesnt like one thing (the mounting block,) doesnt mean he doesnt like the other thing (riding.)

Mostly, horses seem to like to be in a herd, even if it’s a herd of just the two of you. That’s why they generally seem to like hand-walking. Walking along side a friend is something they enjoy. 

They are like toddlers. Toddlers HATE putting on turtle necks. But they don’t mind WEARING turtle necks. The two things are unconnected. It’s the same with horses. They are very immediate. 

It’s we humans that make connections between things. And we too often project those onto our horses.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@ManicDaisy that could be the case with her. Hates the saddle getting put on but doesn’t mind when I ride her. Can you or anybody else tell if she’s uncomfortable in the pictures I posted a few posts above? What I’m thinking is that the owner/instructor will be back Sunday or Monday and I’m supposed to ride on Saturday. So I’ll ride (but go really easy on her) Saturday and then talk to the owner the next time I ride after Saturday.
Today when I put her saddle on, I made sure to check that the saddle wasn’t too far forward and to put the saddle on really, really slow and she wasn’t as bad. When I lifted the saddle, she pinned her ears and lifted her head but I lowered it and we repeated that a few times and when I put it on slow, she hardly moved her ears (although she did have hay in her stall that she was eating). On Saturday I’ll do this again and she’s if she’s good about it. She did a mini buck and was lazy today but I had to ride in the indoor and she hates the indoor (bucks pretty much every time in the indoor no matter who rides her or the temperature) so I guess we’ll see on Saturday if I ride outside.


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## ManicDaisy (Dec 13, 2018)

@Bettythepony

I think she looks fine. Believe me, I’ve been through it being a beginner and not knowing what issues were my lack of confidence and what issues are the horse being uncomfortable. I feel your struggle.

But dont rush to assume you’re hurting the horse. Ask the horse’s owner before you start going down a rabbit hole of googling diagnoses.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Betty, I agree that she doesn't obviously look uncomfortable, not that a few still pics tell much unless it's something blatant tho. And of course, as I've said, it's possible her tacking up behaviour is due to previous, not current association with pain(tho why would owners even consider another saddle if this one were found to be not a problem??). 

My son's horse we got a new saddle for - a treeless, which I thought would fit, had good spinal clearance & weight distribution etc. We went on a few short rides & all seemed good. Then the first substantial ride we did, he still looked happy & as keen as usual, but when Darcy unsaddled him, he had lumps, looked like hives, under where the middle of the saddle sat & flinched away from touch there for the next week! Obviously weight distribution wasn't so good as I thought, because with more time in the stirrups on that ride - lots of trotting & cantering - pressure from the stirrup 'points' was the issue. He never looked obviously uncomfortable at all while ridden(tho he'd been trained there's no point in 'talking' as no one will listen... slowly coming out of his shell with very considerate Darcy), and now he's got white patches in that spot. :-(

Occurred to me, you could maybe look for an adjustable saddle such as a Wintec, which aren't too costly, esp second hand, or a treeless, and pass on the ads to the owner("look - here's an ad for a saddle that's not too expensive - would that work do you think?") or you could ask again whether you're allowed to ride bareback & see how that goes.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

That’s true it could be from the past but then again as @loosie mentioned, why would the owners have a saddle fitter come out of it was? I’ll definitely talk to her once she’s back from vacation and see what she thinks. Maybe they are getting a new saddle but are in the process of finding one. I read that cantering is harder on their back or something because it has odd number of beats so if that’s right, I won’t canter too much and just focus on walking and trotting more.


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## Misty&Luna (Aug 28, 2020)

Bettythepony said:


> I’m new to the horse forum but here goes nothing. I partially lease this pony named Betty. She’s a pony and a mare so she has quite the attitude. When I put her saddle and girth on (I don’t slam the saddle down or tighten the girth all at once or too fast) she “bites”. What I mean, is she pins her ears, throws her head back and bites the air next close to you but not close enough to actually bite (most of the time anyways). The only advise I’ve gotten is to whack her but it (understandably) makes her want to bite me more and puts her in a bad mood for a few minutes. I’ve also tried ignoring it and pushing her head away but she still does it. The last thing I’ve tried is something I read. Kicking her leg lightly to redirect her attention (not to cause pain) and then making her walk for a bit. That hasn’t done anything either, it doesn’t redirect her attention unless I kick her really hard (which puts her in a bad mood).
> 
> She’s not by any means a biter, this is the only thing she “bites” at. She’s a healthy 11 year old pony and doesn’t have anything medically wrong with her. Does anybody know how to deal with this? Any and all help is appreciated.


If this pony is like this, you can lunge them and teach them with approach and retreat.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Misty&Luna said:


> If this pony is like this, you can lunge them and teach them with approach and retreat.


 Thanks, I’m not sure how to lunge and I know it’s something I can’t teach myself but we have narrowed it down to most likely her saddle fit.


This isn’t related to this (although I read that ground work is the foundation to everything else) but she can be very rude when I lead her. She walks so her head is lined up with my elbow but then when I stop, she keeps on walking and sometimes makes a circle around me. I think I’m going to work on it by leading her around and then stopping a bunch and when she keeps moving, I’ll ask her to back up to where her feet should be then “click” and give her a treat if that seems right. 

Also I’ve been forgetting to teach her click/treat but does anybody have any suggestions for a “click” I can use. She uses cluck to move forward, kissing noises are also to move forward and I don’t want to just say “good” or “great” because I don’t want her to hear that when I’m riding her and then stop and expect a treat. I don’t know how to whistle either.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Re the leading, I just would try not to think of it as her being 'rude', in the same way as you'd think of someone being intentionally rude. Or perhaps rather, notice the 'rudeness' but don't blame her for it. Horses do what works & quit doing what doesn't work & she may have simply never been taught to lead 'politely', or perhaps she has learned she doesn't have to with you. 

Your idea of putting her back where she should be when she goes too far, then rewarding is a good one I reckon. Also, if you don't just stop but start energetically reversing yourself, particularly if she is behind you & you run into her, she will very soon learn to listen to your bodylanguage & stop/reverse when you do! ;-)

Re clicking signals, anything that's a short, sharp consistent sound will do. You can still buy those little plastic & steel clickers, should you want a noisemaker rather than a word. Or you could use a plastic/steel whistle. And while it's easier to have a unique signal, and in the beginning, it's easier to allow your horse to stop what he's doing when he hears the signal, 'good!' works fine for me & many others - the horse just learns that it doesn't only/always mean a treat is coming, and as for the stopping for a treat, you want to eventually 'fade that out', because otherwise it gets in the way of progressing, if they're going to stop in their tracks whenever.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

loosie said:


> Re the leading, I just would try not to think of it as her being 'rude', in the same way as you'd think of someone being intentionally rude. Or perhaps rather, notice the 'rudeness' but don't blame her for it. Horses do what works & quit doing what doesn't work & she may have simply never been taught to lead 'politely', or perhaps she has learned she doesn't have to with you.


I completely agree with you, I’ve never really taught her manners and I’m glad I started this forum because it taught me to think deeper. 


loosie said:


> Re clicking signals, anything that's a short, sharp consistent sound will do. You can still buy those little plastic & steel clickers, should you want a noisemaker rather than a word. Or you could use a plastic/steel whistle. And while it's easier to have a unique signal, and in the beginning, it's easier to allow your horse to stop what he's doing when he hears the signal, 'good!' works fine for me & many others - the horse just learns that it doesn't only/always mean a treat is coming, and as for the stopping for a treat, you want to eventually 'fade that out', because otherwise it gets in the way of progressing, if they're going to stop in their tracks whenever.


I think I’m going to start a new forum for the click/treat as I’m confused and don’t want to confuse Betty. But I’ll keep everyone updated on this forum about the saddle and all that.


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## Granite State Horses (Aug 5, 2020)

I agree that first thing is making sure there are no medical issues if she clears that hurdle you need to gain her respect.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

So they’re looking into getting her a new saddle. I’m still riding her for only one reason: she’s stopped “biting” when I put her saddle on. I’ve started lowering it really slowly and putting it a little farther back. Then she started doing it with the girth. One day she was really bad and actually getting close to biting me so I grabbed a hoof pick and when she got close to biting me, she bit the hoof pick instead and then she got a bit better. After that, I started lightly slapping her on the nose if she got close to me when air biting (she knows better) and she’s just been air biting sometimes but not as often. 

But then, she started changing “tactics” (not sure what to call it) and sucking her breath out so it’s hard to tighten her girth (she’s so smart). I’ve just been trying to never tighten it at the same time everyday (sometimes all when I’m first putting it on which actually worked ok, sometimes tighten it a little before and after I put her bridle on, sometimes I do all of it right before I mount, etc.). Not really sure how to deal with this and sometimes it’s so bad and takes me forever to tighten it.

The last thing she does that she’s never done before is right when I put the reins over her head before I put the bridle on, she goes over to her water and drinks a bit, keeps her head there, drinks a tiny more for like 2 minutes. I don’t want her to get dehydrated but one time I didn’t let her and she didn’t even drink any water after I was done riding and untacked her so I think she’s stalling putting the bridle on now. So I’m not tightening her nose band as much, just one hole less (it was really, really tight before almost impossible to get that right not exactly sure why I did that) but I haven’t ridden her since I tried that so I’m not sure if it worked. Also, she wears a 2 joint rubber bit that has circle rings (not sure what it’s called), it’s pretty weak so I don’t think the bit is the problem but I could be completely wrong.

Does anybody understand why she’s doing these things or are they normal? Since she’s always changing what she’s doing I don’t think it’s a specific piece of tack bugging her (but again I could be completely wrong) Thanks!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

So I’ve been having a very hard time with her and the girth. She’s good when I put the saddle on and hasn’t bucked in a while but now the girth has become an issue. Yesterday, she was pretty bad about the girth but I figured it was because it was colder out and I just let her get away with it since when she’s like that (she used to be a couple years ago) if I slap her or anything it makes her worse and it was just one day. But today, she did the same thing and I slapped her neck when she was bad (probably didn’t hurt very much if at all) and she got 10 times worse. Her mouth was actually on my leg multiple times so it’s only a matter of time before I actually get bitten. This is during the girth, not the saddle and I did it very slowly, like normal. Sometimes I move my leg away so she doesn’t bite it, but I feel like that makes her feel like she’s in charge or whatever and I need to stand my ground safely somehow.

How do I deal with this without making it worse? If I let her get away with it, won’t she always be like this? I’m nervous for my safety now because I can’t use the cross ties due to Covid so I need to make sure she doesn’t do that. Please help!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Update: They ordered her a new saddle! They got her professionally fitted for it but they might still need her crupper because she hates her saddle up too far (it was newly professionally fitted and that’s what he said so it actually was really for that) 

Betty hasn’t gotten better or worse with the biting. Again this is for the girth and now sometimes when I pick her hoof (she’s not lame or anything and it’s only before I ride, never when I pick them after). I’ve been bumping her with my leg/arm when she gets close and ignoring her otherwise. It didn’t seem to help but didn’t make it worse like slapping her so I guess it’s fine. If you have any suggestions please let me know. Thanks everyone that helped me figure out what to do!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Best advice I feel I can give is... Please STOP NOW! For your safety! 

Without being there, only having your words to go on, sounds like she is getting dangerous, and no offense meant but you don't sound experienced enough to deal with it. As she has got worse, she is likely to get more so without very careful handling. You don't want to be on the brunt of 'worse', believe me. So I would personally strongly suggest you ask for a different horse, or go elsewhere, find a safe, happy horse/environment(with teachers that supervise) to help you learn & enjoy... Absolutely no shame in that.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie I understand where you’re coming from but I’ve been riding for 7 years so it’s not like anybody would think to need to help me tack up. I’ve been putting up with this for the last 2-3 years I’m not giving up now. The only reason I’m on this forum is to get different perspectives because my riding instructor always says to just slap her which makes her worse and I’m not experienced enough to figure it out on my own. 

So I haven’t gotten a chance to start c/t but I was thinking, maybe if I did that with an object and put the object away from me, she would be inclined to touch the object rather than bite me. Of course she wouldn’t have caught on for a couple weeks so I’d have to figure out what to do until then. Would this work? Any other suggestions or ways you would deal with this?


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Also I need help dealing it without it getting worse so if that won’t work please let me know and what might work. I know it’s hard over a forum but some guidance is better than nothing. If other people agree that I should stop, I definitely will.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Bettythepony said:


> @loosie I understand where you’re coming from but I’ve been riding for 7 years so it’s not like anybody would think to need to help me tack up. I’ve been putting up with this for the last 2-3 years I’m not giving up now. The only reason I’m on this forum is to get different perspectives because my riding instructor always says to just slap her which makes her worse and I’m not experienced enough to figure it out on my own.
> 
> So I haven’t gotten a chance to start c/t but I was thinking, maybe if I did that with an object and put the object away from me, she would be inclined to touch the object rather than bite me. Of course she wouldn’t have caught on for a couple weeks so I’d have to figure out what to do until then. Would this work? Any other suggestions or ways you would deal with this?


It possibly would work in time and lots of patience on your part.

I'm dealing with the same issue and what I find works for my gelding. Might work for your lease horse.

When I correct him for reaching around to bite me I don't look at him. I can see him out of corner of my eye. When he turns to bite his nose meets my elbow a good hard bonk. He quickly puts his head forward and no more trying to bite. 

He doesn't get upset because he thinks he ran into my elbow,I made no eye contact with him And I go on like nothing happened. If I just ignored it he would bite and hard. 

He'll pin ears bob head up an down but no bitting. I've been down the saddle fitting routine treated for ulcers. Saddle fits ulcers treated and he's still ornery about being cinched up. 

I've used treats does help, timing has to be really good. Or you teach the wrong behavior. It's a challenge to say the least.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@rambo99 thanks for the reply, when I do that (but I do look at her so I won’t anymore) it doesn’t make her worse but not any better so I’ll have to give it a try. Along with that, I’ll work on getting her familiar with click/treat and maybe that will help but that’ll take some time and I don’t want to do that until she gets back to just air biting and not actually almost biting. 

Is there anyway I can make sure I’m not making it worse? Like anything that I’m doing/not doing that would almost always make it worse ?


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I have heard that holding a nail between your fingers and making a fist which you hold still and let them run into it (without looking at the horse) also works.

What worked for mine is to fiddle with the girth for hours. Just touch it and back off (and do something else for a while) until she accepts it. Play with the buckle - back off. On and on until she gets fed up with reacting. Scratch and cuddle occasionally. It helped that she is a lazy bum and prefers not moving so ear pinning is too much work for her taste.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@Horsef I’ll have to give that a try when I have the extra time. Just a thought your idea gave me, I don’t tighten the girth all at once but I don’t give her a lot of time between when I do tighten it. So maybe if I just tightened it very slowly, like 1 hole then do something else until it’s tightened . It seems to be as soon as I start to tighten it to the 4th hole on either side (kind of weird how it’s always the same hole no matter how tight it is on the other side), she starts getting more mad about it so maybe if I gave her a longer break before and after that she’ll be happier. And for her, the 4th hole on each side is not quite tight enough. Thanks!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

OK...

Slapping her is very likely to (continue to) make it worse. She is saying "Stop! You're really irritating me" and you then slap her for telling you this, so she is feeling that her first 'correction' was not effective enough, so is assertive enough to realise she needs to get more 'effective'. If you are going to use punishment, no fluffing around - you need to Make It Big(plurry Deadpool, got me listening to Wham!...). You need to punish her hard enough that regardless of her reasoning, how unfair it may be, whatever, she SERIOUSLY wants to avoid that happening again & thinks very seriously before doing it again. If you have to repeat punishment over & over, then it's not effective and is likely to only make matters worse. 

The other thing is timing - regardless of whether you're using punishment or reinforcement, it needs to happen *at the time of* the behaviour you want to effect, not after, even by a second. As Rambo & Horsef have described, doing it in such a way that causes the horse to 'punish herself' is more effective, as it happens *at the time of* the behaviour. Doing it without looking, without emotion also helps to 'disassociate' the punishment with anger or other unfair & unhelpful emotions.

But all that said... while I'd be prepared to punish her for actual biting - because it's too dangerous to fluff around with - think I've 'gone on' here about addressing motivation already, and punishment is not going to help change that at all. I think of punishment as more like 'first aid' or an 'emergency brake' - sometimes necessary in the heat of the moment, but not something to use in general management, best avoided if possible. So I'd be more inclined to do something like what Horsef describes above - *prove* to her it's not as bad as she thinks(& confrontations are only making her belief even stronger & she's had YEARS of these 'lessons', so it will take a LOT of time & patience to 'unteach'). The gist is, you will do something at a level she _can _tolerate, repeatedly. Ie. touch the girth & back off and reward her for tolerating it. Do this until she is _happily_ standing for it, before 'fluffing' with the girth for longer, or whatever. You NEVER do more than she is ready for at that stage. Realise that every time you go 'too far' and she gets aggressive & you have to resort to punishment, you are further confirming her existing attitude, so undermining any trust too - you are effectively showing her, again, that it all IS as bad as it seems!

So... the way I see it, you have 3 choices. You can punish her, instantly, strongly enough that she is seriously unlikely to try it again. Be prepared though, to do it again, and MUCH harder, if it wasn't effective. Also be prepared that she may 'up the ante' herself & get seriously aggressive, &/or she may just try something different - kicking at you for eg. Or you can use gradual desensitisation combined with rewards, to change her whole attitude. Or you can just tie her in such a way that she can't bite or kick, and just ignore what she thinks about it and just do it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> she starts getting more mad about it so maybe if I gave her a longer break before and after that she’ll be happier. And for her, the 4th hole on each side is not quite tight enough. Thanks!


No, the point of the exercise is to prove to her it's OK. So you DON'T continue to just tighten the girth, regardless how slowly. So if she can tolerate it up the the 3rd hole, that is as far as I'd go, until she is GOOD about that. Then you can add one more hole - where it used to be too much for her - and that will hopefully be the new 'uncomfortable but tolerable' level, until she becomes happy about that.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie thanks for clarifying. I’m still a bit confused. So once I get to the third hole and she tolerates it, what do I do after I reward her, take the saddle off? But wouldn’t that not work because they only think in the second? Or do I just do something else for a bit and then tighten it more? And then when she does try to bite I should let her punish herself by meeting her in the middle with my elbow without emotion and then continuing on? And if I do take the saddle off, do I just leave her for the day or put it back on a few minutes after?


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Bettythepony said:


> @loosie thanks for clarifying. I’m still a bit confused. So once I get to the third hole and she tolerates it, what do I do after I reward her, take the saddle off? But wouldn’t that not work because they only think in the second? Or do I just do something else for a bit and then tighten it more? And then when she does try to bite I should let her punish herself by meeting her in the middle with my elbow without emotion and then continuing on? And if I do take the saddle off, do I just leave her for the day or put it back on a few minutes after?


What I would do at that point (and I might be wrong, more experienced people will correct me) is take her out in the arena, do a bit of ground work and reach for the girth to see the reaction (without looking straight at her). If she starts to complain, redirect your hand to do something else (like scratch her), do a bit more ground work, reach again. On an on until she doesn't react. But you can't be doing this and having a lesson at a specific time and be in a rush. It takes however long it takes. Even if you don't ride that time. If you don't get to no reaction in a reasonable amount of time, stop on a high note (her doing something well, not necessarily anything to do with the girth). I personally don't treat my mare (because she is a fat glutton and looses her mind completely if there are treats involved and all learning stops for her to salivate and open her eyes and ears and nostrils to their widest settings) but if your horse is ok with treats, throw some in as well - not for the girth though but for the new groundwork figure you are teaching her. That way girth is a non event and this shiny new figure is the focus. The point of the exercise is to make the girth a non-event. 

What I also always do with all the horses I ride is to tighten one hole at a time on each side. Tighten, go to the other side, scratch he neck a bit, tighten, go around, tighten, tidy up the grooming box, go around, brush the mane, tighten - and so on.

And I never tighten all the way in the stall, I always take them out and tighten the rest in the arena, after hand walking a bit. I usually leave the last hole to tighten after mounting (from the mounting block, you can't really do that if you mount from the ground).

It sounds like a lot of work but it really isn't and once they relax to the girth it's not a big thing and you are spending time with your horse.


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

Bettythepony said:


> @loosie thanks for clarifying. I’m still a bit confused. So once I get to the third hole and she tolerates it, what do I do after I reward her, take the saddle off?* But wouldn’t that not work because they only think in the second?* Or do I just do something else for a bit and then tighten it more? And then when she does try to bite I should let her punish herself by meeting her in the middle with my elbow without emotion and then continuing on? And if I do take the saddle off, do I just leave her for the day or put it back on a few minutes after?


Just want to say real quick; they live in the moment, but they learn and remember everything through association. Next time the saddle goes on, she'll remember "last time the saddle went on the girth got a bit tight but not bad and then it stopped and went away, instead of getting worse. Maybe it's not that scary". It's a long process of course, because so far her knowledge of this has been very steadily "bad" and that was reinforced to her every time. That association was made rock-hard in her mind, so it will take patience, time, and repetition of it **not** getting bad before she can really believe it. Doing it this way, the idea is that it never gets to the point she tries to bite. What you want is "good feelings" and good feelings only. Because she will really remember feeling a bad emotion and that reinforces in her mind that it's a bad situation that she must try to get out of.
Here is a video I recommend watching; I don't really mean it as a step-by-step but rather so you can get a better understanding of this concept.




I really recommend watching the entire video, but specifically nearer the end, is what made me think of this video for you. There he "controls" his horse's feelings by changing them to good as soon as they even start going a little bit bad. Building a strong foundation like this with a lot of patience and attention to tiny details, he "fixes" the problem before it even gets bad (or before it even becomes a problem, really) and without any rough handling, punishment, etc, and therefor builds his horse's trust in him to be a leader and to keep interactions and situations *good*.
This is not a very popular or "traditional" "method" because many people see it as rewarding bad behaviour. And done incorrectly, it can be this. But if you really can get deep down to where you understand your horse's thoughts and feelings you can start tampering with things like this. Because then you're not really "rewarding" or "not rewarding" anything - you're keeping them in a happy and relaxed place. They get worried and you go "oh hold on, I see what you're worried about but lemme show you it's not actually bad". In this situation, what you want (Betty to be ok with the girth and not bite at you) doesn't have to be a trained thing - it can be, but it doesn't have to be. You could train the horse to stand still while you tighten the girth, **or** you can show the horse that the girth isn't scary and that it is ok, and then not biting at you will just be the natural outcome. The first involves making them do something, and rewarding the right response. The second involves being intune with their thoughts and feelings and showing them through repetition of the "scary thing" **not** being scary that they can be ok with it. And with this one, as soon as they start to get a little upset or worried, you do what you have to do to get them *not* worried or upset again. Whether that's scratches or taking the scary thing away far enough that it's not scary anymore. It's not a reward, it's just responding to their communication of "I don't like this".
This video explains this idea a bit. It's not a long video, and might not seem like it's showing much because this horse already trusts that it doesn't have to worry about things getting too scary from past experience. It's simple, straightforward, and it's precisely what I'm trying to explain.




Going back to the first video; with this you're practically, in a way, controlling their thoughts; making them feel the things you want them to, in a round-about way. It all starts with relaxation. You can't get anywhere good without starting relaxed. So you might need to start even without a girth involved, without a saddle involved and make sure you can be on that level of being relaxed and make sure you know how to recognize it and then start moving out of relaxation towards worry a little bit, then going back to relaxed and unworried. When I started trying this I spent a lot of time just outside in the pasture. Not wanting or expecting anything, but literally just being there, being in the moment and watching them. Just being part of every-day herd life. Sometimes I would head out planning to work, and then end up just "being" there with them. And I really needed that practice. I used to use very different sorts of "methods" with horses.
It might seem like quite a process, and it is definitely a journey, but I thoroughly enjoy this new side of things. Even aside from this particular problem, and just in your horse journey (and life, actually) overall, it's a very good thing to get into. These types of interactions with my horses, and just being in this mindset when I'm around them, is the most deeply calming thing I've ever experienced, strangely enough. I feel completely different than anything I'm usually used to feeling, after a session with my horses. In a word, it feels like you're completely grounded. I never before understood or had any interest in this type of thing, but having it happen in action has been a very interesting and enlightening process.

Now that's a wall of text, and I didn't even mean to. :smile: I hope in some measure it helps explain some of the "why"s behind the "do"s.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@JoBlueQuarter thanks so much for the long response. I see what your saying but I have a small problem. I have a lesson today so I can’t really not put the girth in because in the end, it’ll have to be on and tight enough anyways. I’ll check out the videos as soon as I have a few minutes. Do you think if I did the general idea, putting the saddle and girth on, tightening it to the third hole and then taking it off a few times and then putting it on and tightening it work or no? If I did it, I’d probably do it 3-4 times depending on if she’s really dirty and I need to groom her for a while or if I just need a quick brush and then I can start tacking up.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

So I was running late and didn’t have time to do anything and she was the same and didn’t get better or worse when I put my elbow out without looking at her. She was pretty bad at one point and I tightened the girth really slow (like 20 sec for each hole) and she was much better. But next time I’m definitely going to take the saddle off a few times and not tighten the girth much. I also started click/treat and it went well. She seemed to get the hang of it but after I lifted a treat, she moved her head away from the object (a new sweat scraper since that’s all I had). But I’m reading an article about it so I should be fine.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@Bettytheponny How are you getting on? Any new developments? If you don't mind sharing, of course.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Horsef said:


> How are you getting on? Any new developments? If you don't mind sharing, of course.


Pretty good definitely getting better with everyone’s suggestions pretty much back to how she normally is (air biting). I used the elbow strategy and have been tightening the girth really slow. They’ve ordered her a new saddle so hopefully that might help. She’s been good riding, today we had a mini show just at our barn with people from our barn and she did amazing and we even won champion in the 2 foot division. She did buck once but I don’t think it’s because of the saddle, just because it’s getting cold here and she’s sensitive to weather changes.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> @JoBlueQuarter thanks so much for the long response. I see what your saying but I have a small problem. I have a lesson today so I can’t really not put the girth in because in the end, it’ll have to be on and tight enough anyways. I’ll check out the videos as soon as I have a few minutes. Do you think if I did the general idea, putting the saddle and girth on, tightening it to the third hole and then taking it off a few times and then putting it on and tightening it work or no? If I did it, I’d probably do it 3-4 times depending on if she’s really dirty and I need to groom her for a while or if I just need a quick brush and then I can start tacking up.


The point is, proving to her that you are considerate of her feelings, that you AREN'T going to do anything that hurts her(or causes her to worry/react about hurt). Therefore, no. There is no point in doing this if you're not going to... do it. If you're going to give preference to just riding anyway, to just doing it a few times & then tightening regardless, you're only proving to her that you _don't_ care what she thinks. And no, if you're going to do this, the point is, to *avoid* making her 'really dirty'. Sorry for sounding so negative, but it seems you don't get the idea at all.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie Well I had a lesson scheduled I couldn’t just cancel it. I am at the very least somewhat considerate to her feelings, considering I started this forum rather than ignoring it... I don’t appreciate being called inconsiderate of her feelings especially since you don’t even know me or Betty. I can’t take everyone’s suggestions because a bunch of them are contradicting so I don’t want to confuse her and there’s just too many to do them all. I’ve been tightening it really slowly and petting her when she doesn’t react and she’s been better about it and doing the elbow thing when she does react. Also I think I see the point, that you can train them to do something (stand still for this girth) or make them actually like it. But is any horse actually ever going to enjoy getting the girth on? Probably not, there’s ways to make it more comfortable which is what I’m trying to do. Is there a way I can make her like it? Nope, again, I can only make it more comfortable. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think that doing that will make her necessarily like it, just desensitize her to it and possibly make her think I’m not going to tighten it (which I’ll have to do eventually, whether it be after a day or a year) and while that will help, I can use different strategies that will also help.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I'm popping back in. I don't know if @Horsef's comment got lost or not, but I 100% agree with not doing all of the tightening in the stall. With my Pony, I get him to two or three holes on each side, but he really needs to be on four, especially if we're going to canter, because he is super round with no withers. After the two or three holes I walk him to the arena. I will usually tighten up one more then, sometimes just one on one side. Then I do his leg stretches. Then I tighten up one more side. I usually end up with three holes on the right and four on the left. Then after we've walked around in the arena for a couple of minutes and he's warmed up, I'll bring up the last side to four holes.

I will say, that back when he had a saddle that didn't fit, I also felt that I could solve the problem by just making the girth tighter, but it just made him unhappy and the saddle still didn't fit. I know you say they have ordered one for her. Hopefully it will fit. It's hard when it's not your horse.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@ACinATX I didn’t see their response so thanks for pointing that out. I’ve tried that before but I don’t do it anymore. Basically it’s because one time I did that and couldn’t get it tightened enough and had to ride with a loose girth so I’ve been too anxious to try it again. I always like to have a backup plan so if I couldn’t get it tightened for some reason then I could do it before I get on. But if I wait till I get on and can’t get it, I can’t do anything about it besides tighten it once I’m on which I’m awful at. What I normally do is tighten it to 4 on one side and 3 on the other (it needs to be at least 4 on one side and 5 on the other, sometimes my instructor tells me to tighten it one more but sometimes she doesn’t so it might need to be 5 on each side). Then, I check the stirrups since other people ride her and then tighten it one more. After that, I put her bridle on and tighten it one more after.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> I am at the very least somewhat considerate to her feelings, considering I started this forum rather than ignoring it... I don’t appreciate being called inconsiderate


Of course you _could_ have cancelled the lesson if you wanted to. I _do_ believe you care about her, but you misunderstand what I was trying to say; IF you want to 'retrain' her & change her attitude - what has previously been taught to her over the years, that regardless what she thinks/says about it, people are just going to do stuff to her - you need to _stop doing that._ You cannot have your cake & eat it too(dunno why that's a saying - what's the point of cake??) - IF you are just going to have a little play at it but then just go and tack her up anyway, then you are only *further confirming* that you're the same as everyone else.



> I can’t take everyone’s suggestions because a bunch of them are contradicting


Of course. And you'll find that's always the way. What's the saying... ask 5 horse people a question & you'll get at least 10 contradictory opinions... You just have to learn as much as you can, so you can then listen to everyone and make the most objective decisions possible on which bits to 'try' or take on board. If you just try to follow any or all advice blindly, you won't be doing yourself or the horse any favours. So... no offense taken if you don't take my advice - you've just got to go with what YOU feel is right at the time & keep learning & remain open minded so you can do better when you learn better.



> But is any horse actually ever going to enjoy getting the girth on? Probably not, there’s ways to make it more comfortable which is what I’m trying to do. Is there a way I can make her like it? Nope, again, I can only make it more comfortable.


Yes & no... IME you can indeed train a horse to be perfectly fine about getting the girth done up. I do it all the time. You could take that further, by strongly associating it with something desirable, to teach them to actually enjoy it. Just like getting them to come at liberty & stand *eagerly* at the block to be mounted, for eg. But no, in this horse's case, with years of 'practice' of it being Bad News, I sus the best you'll get is tolerance - her understanding that it won't be so bad with you & you will be considerate of her feelings. But as said, with her years of being taught the opposite, it will take a lot of patience to change her attitude about it. You need to take as long as it takes, can't just do 5 minutes here & there & same as you've always done the rest of the time.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Bettythepony said:


> @ACinATX I didn’t see their response so thanks for pointing that out. I’ve tried that before but I don’t do it anymore. Basically it’s because one time I did that and couldn’t get it tightened enough and had to ride with a loose girth so I’ve been too anxious to try it again. I always like to have a backup plan so if I couldn’t get it tightened for some reason then I could do it before I get on. But if I wait till I get on and can’t get it, I can’t do anything about it besides tighten it once I’m on which I’m awful at. What I normally do is tighten it to 4 on one side and 3 on the other (it needs to be at least 4 on one side and 5 on the other, sometimes my instructor tells me to tighten it one more but sometimes she doesn’t so it might need to be 5 on each side). Then, I check the stirrups since other people ride her and then tighten it one more. After that, I put her bridle on and tighten it one more after.


Is there a reason that you cannot tighten further whilst mounted and ask your instructor to help you from the ground? As far as I know it's done all the time, even encouraged because the saddle settles further with the rider's weight.

I get a bit of a feeling that you are slightly intimidated by your instructor and that your instructor is brushing off your concerns. There is absolutely no reason for you to ride with a loose girth. You HAVE to be comfortable enough with your instructor to ask for help - but especially with such basic safety. If you aren't - you need to desensitize yourself (see what I did there? Ha!). It could literally save your life. If your instructor is being rude and giving you attitude - blast her. You are a paying customer and you have an issue - she should be helping you with that issue. Don't avoid getting on with a loose girth. Even if you are on the Olympics team, the instructor should be perfectly happy to help you with your girth. I am sure plenty Olympics trainers have been helping with girths whilst their charge is mounted.

Are these group lessons or individual tuition? I understand that you might not want to hold back a whole group with questions about girths but just helping you tighten the girth is not going to take a lot of time for the instructor.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie yeah that’s sort of what I was trying to say. You can train a horse to stand still but you can’t make them like it. As you said, you can take it a step further and associate it with something good but as you mentioned it will take years for me to be able to do that especially with my experience in horse training (none) and how Betty’s been treated with the girth. That’s fine with me but I’ll probably not be riding her in a few years. 
@ACinATX yes and no. I’m sort of intimidated by her but I just don’t like asking for help in general because it embarrasses me for some reason. She’s very judgey and I hate being judged. But I also like her a lot and if she sees the girth was too loose, she tightens it for me. This was just one time a long time ago but now I’m too nervous to do it again. I could tighten it once I’m on but my instructor tried teaching it to me and it took me 10 minutes just to go up one hole on one of the sides. I will try to tighten it right before I get on next time I ride. 

Most are individual lessons some are just with one other person but sometimes I just ride, don’t lesson. When I just ride, she’s either teaching a lesson and I don’t want to disturb her or she’s not in the arena (I am supervised, my parents normally watch me ride but they’re not allowed inside the barn or she makes sure someone very experienced is riding at the same time). Worst case scenario I have to ask her to tighten it which isn’t that bad so I will try it.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Also forgot to mention for the saddle, I hope it fits too. I think it hopefully should, the saddle guy (not sure if it was a saddle fitter or not. He had a bunch of saddles with him and the people were testing the saddles) was there a few days ago for other people and that’s when they ordered the saddle. And about a month ago the owners/trainer said that the saddle fitter had come out for Betty (and probably the other people he was there for the other day) so I think it will fit which I’m very excited for!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Well the inevitable happened. I got bit. It was when I was picking her hoof, I’m not sure why, she wasn’t lame or anything and the farrier came a couple days ago (maybe that’s why?). Also, it wasn’t hard more of a nip, it hurt of course but didn’t break the skin and just left a small mark so I guess I’m lucky. I didn’t punish her because by the time I was thinking clear enough to do it, 2 seconds were up and I didn’t want to confuse her. Then she was pretty much perfect tacking up. And after I untacked her, she blew air in my nose a few times and had her ears pricked so that made my day. I don’t know what’s up with her because she was perfect for the saddle and the girth. It seems like she always needs to complain about something (not saying that’s what’s happening I’m not exactly sure why). 

Anybody have any similar experiences? Or ideas of why this is happening? Should I stop giving her treats? I don’t think it has to do with treats but of course I have no clue. I taught her some manners and so I never give her treats if she’s nosing me. I wait until she moves her head away (she’s gotten good at this now) and then bringing the treat to her, not the other way around.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Also, am I doing something wrong? Whenever she tries to bite, I jab her with my elbow without looking and I haven’t had to do that for a while and she’s been really good about it. Today, I just had this feeling she wasn’t having it when I was about to lift her hoof. I ignored it and lifted her hoof anyways and felt her turn her head around. So I butted her (didn’t turn around or look at her) and she bit me. I know I should’ve have done this (at least I think) but I dropped her hoof since I was shocked and it was too late to do anything about it by then. I lifted her hoof again and she was fine. I did her back one and she was fine. She had a nice expression on her face when I finished her other hooves (about a minute after she bit me) and I had a treat so I gave it to her.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

More experienced people will come along shortly, but here is my opinion anyway. That mare sounds like a tester. I have one of those. I will fix one thing, she comes up with something else. She cycles through her tests all the time. The fact that I fixed something four years ago, two years ago and a month ago doesn't mean she won't try it again.

Anyhow, she is clearly unhappy about something. It is very difficult to determine exactly what it is online - but I get a strong feeling that she is just unhappy about having to work. I am not sure how that gets fixed. I have tried hundreds of exercises, various disciplines - my mare's firmly interested in food and her friends, everything else is a nuisance.

The way I deal with her is to very strongly correct dangerous behavior but work gently and slowly on everything else. She only tried biting once. I made her think she is about to die. I didn't actually hit her, but I lost it on her. And at the time I really meant it. It was an instinctual reaction on my part and I was prepared to go all the way, even if it meant she splattered me on the wall. She felt my resolve and never offered to bite again. You need to be aware that this type of confrontation can end badly for the human. 

If I were you, I would ask the instructor for a sit down meeting. I would frame the issue as you wanting to learn how horse behavior issues are solved, biting being one of them. Ask her to dedicate a few lessons to this, rather than riding. If she isn't open to these types of lessons, ask her to recommend a different instructor for this. You seem to be stuck and online help can only get you that far.

One little piece of constructive criticism - you felt her not being down with hoof cleaning. Listen to your instincts always. If you feel that the horse is going to give you trouble - come up with a plan. In this case there are a few things you could have done:

- Tie her up very short. 
- Go do something else until she is happier. 
- Prepare yourself for a fight by taking a crop in with you. A crop works wanders, just show it to her. I always take a crop in when riding school kids are having issues and there is no one else to help them but me and those horses start behaving immediately. But I am determined that they will mind me and they know it.
- Take her out of the stall, do a smidgen of ground work, put her back and proceed.

Good luck


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> Well the inevitable happened. I got bit. It was when I was picking her hoof, I’m not sure why, ... wasn’t hard more of a nip, it hurt of course but didn’t break the skin and just left a small mark


Think of it from her point of view... You were doing something to her she didn't want you to & she knows she can 'call the shots' with you. She was 'asking' you with her bodylanguage, and when you ignored that and then 'butted' her, she had to really 'tell' you more 'loudly' to quit harassing her. Lucky she thought that a light 'warning bite' was all you need. Good that you didn't punish her too late, but do be prepared, she will do it again, probably harder.



> after I untacked her, she blew air in my nose a few times and had her ears pricked so that made my day.


Please don't encourage/allow this horse to get close to your face!!

Respectfully, I really feel you are in a dangerous situation & don't feel it's reasonable or responsible to keep just offering you 'remote' advice, when I can't even see what exactly is happening, and you are an inexperienced person. So back to suggesting you quit while you're ahead & continue your learning at a good place that's going to take responsibility for your safety. If you insist on continuing to deal with this horse, if you want to remain relatively safe, you at least need HANDS ON help, NOT internet forum advice.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie ok but she’s not a biter besides before I ride her. As @Horsef said maybe she just doesn’t want to work. After, when I untack her and pick her hooves she is absolutely fine. I mean she loves jumping but doesn’t really like just hacking. When I’m just standing and petting her or grooming her or leading her, etc. she doesn’t try to bite. I know this pony well, I’ve been riding her for 2-3 years and as you said, you can’t really know just from online. I’m not sure like what to say to the instructor because if she sees me pick hooves then she’s going to watch me tack up. Then she’ll tell me to slap Betty when doing the girth (if she acts up which she might or might not) which isn’t going to work as I already know. What exactly is the punishment for biting? Like do I slap her, yell at her or hit her with a crop? Or all 3 at once? I do know holding a crop helps with her for not trying to bite. But if she actually does bite and I do happen to have a crop, do I hit her with it? I will talk to the instructor if it happens again and I’ll try to punish her. Correct me if I’m wrong but I feel like she won’t be as mad for when I punish her if it’s with hooves rather than the girth which she hates more.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

What is an effective punishment? Whatever is effective enough that you don't have to do it more than twice. As said, as she's only further irritated by being slapped, that is FAR too weak. As said, if you're going to punish the horse, you need to be prepared to punish her hard enough that she is highly unlikely(afraid) to try it again, regardless of her motivation - that means HARD! A *serious* crack across the muzzle with a stiff crop or such might be enough. But if it isn't, it will only make matters worse, make her more 'dirty' on you. And even if it is 'strong' enough, then you also need to be prepared that, depending on her personality, her previous experiences, her view of you, she may well just 'up the ante' & get even more aggressive & dangerous anyway. Punishment is a 'slippery slope' to be used carefully & with good understanding. I would not personally advise you to do this. Also as said, you need to do it *AT THE TIME* of her biting - as she goes to bite, NOT after she has done so, even if by a second. 

Of course she doesn't want to work - who wants to Work?? That's why I personally teach my horses in a manner that they think of it as 'play'. I appreciate she's not yours, you're not the sole rider, so that's probably beside the point of being able to change her attitude. That's where we were heading with the desensitisation info, but you aren't prepared to put in all that time & effort(fair enough, given the situation) to teach her that you are respectful of her. 

When you're untacking or doing other stuff that's not irritating, she has no need to 'tell you off'. You're not being rude or 'taking liberties' she doesn't believe you have a right to. Be prepared though that if there's anything she's irritated about - such as the way you groom her, or that she is just in a mood that day, doesn't want to be touched, whatever, she may well tell you off for that at any point too.

And yes, I do believe you are incorrect to assume she will be OK when you punish her for being 'antsy' about her hooves(which doesn't sound like she was really, when you decided to 'butt' her anyway). I thought she'd just demonstrated that by biting you while you were messing with feet.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie thanks, I normally use a dressage whip for riding as my instructor suggested which isn’t stiff so I’ll have to use a shorter one if needed. I will either do it the second of it happening or not do it at all (only if I can’t do it the second it happens). Should I just always hold a crop in case I do need to punish her? In the experiences you have had, (I know you can’t say for me since you don’t actually know me or Betty) does the horse strike back after you punish them or no? Should I just expect her to strike back and what do I do if she does (I’m guessing punish her again) And next time, I’ll trust my instincts and not pick her hoof right then if I feel like she isn’t having it. 

What I meant by “butting” her was I did the same thing I would’ve standing up and doing the girth. For the girth, I would’ve met her in the middle with my elbow, somewhat hard. And I did the same thing just how I could seeing how I was picking her hooves. She didn’t strike again after I butted her just when I met her in the middle, she actually bit me which also could happen in the elbow situation so I don’t see how it’s different. I guess maybe not necessarily a good idea because I can’t see her.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> Should I just always hold a crop in case I do need to punish her? In the experiences you have had, (I know you can’t say for me since you don’t actually know me or Betty) does the horse strike back after you punish them or no? Should I just expect her to strike back and what do I do if she does


Love, I'm sorry my words gave the idea you should do that - I was trying to give you reason to NOT do anything of the sort. For your own safety. Your questions above to me are an eg of why I said in the last response I DO NOT ADVISE YOU DO THAT. Why I said earlier the best advice I could offer was to QUIT DEALING WITH HER. Respectfully, you simply do not have the experience, skill & understanding in training to deal safely with an aggressive horse - that takes a lot of nouse. 

On this 'path' you are on, you ARE going to get hurt again, hopefully not too seriously. It is also likely you will make the horse more dangerous for ANYONE to deal with. Therefore you are putting others, including her at serious risk too - of being put down for being too dangerous. Therefore I cannot, in all conscience, continue this conversation.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie Ok ok I understand where you’re coming from. I respectfully somewhat disagree with you. Hear me out (if you see this). I’m not saying I’m experienced or nothing like that. What I’m saying is that in just the month I’ve been using this, I’ve solved many issues, more than I’ve posted about. I know that everyone that’s read this forum pays more attention to the problems I’ve had, the times I’ve misspoke, the times I made a mistake, etc. which makes sense. But I want everyone to see this. She’s COMPLETELY stopped biting with the saddle. Think just a month or so ago she was doing that. In my opinion for someone who hasn’t had any experience with training and only sees the horse three days a week, that’s pretty good. Then came the girth. She wasn’t having that. But now she puts up with it way better than she used to (ear pinning and once in a while, air biting). She’s started stopping when I stop while leading her, I know this isn’t directly related to this but you guys have helped me understand the concepts. I’ve gotten her to be less lazy with a video channel someone suggested on this thread. And overall just helped me learn basic concepts of how horses work and think. Now most of the time it’s my error that’s making her be irritated. For the saddle, I was putting it too far forward and too quickly onto her back. For the girth, I was taking the wrong approach in punishing her and tightening it a bit too fast. For the hoof, I didn’t trust my instincts. Honestly in my own opinion, she wasn’t expecting me to “butt” (again the same thing as sticking my elbow out just how I could given the circumstances) her because it didn’t even break the skin and left the tiniest mark. I think she was just trying to bite the air. Not saying that she won’t do it again but that’s just my take on what happened seeing how I was there. 

Most of the time, all I have to do is figure out my error. Now if this gets out of my control obviously I’m going to get help. Like if she does it even just one more time. But one nip isn’t going to kill me or Betty. Also for the future, please don’t call me “love”. And I’m not going to just stop because she’s my best friend (I know you guys know what it’s like). Of course I’ll ask for help but that doesn’t mean I give up and stop riding her. It means they’ll help me tack up. 

I don’t want anybody to stop using this thread but of course I can’t make anybody use it. You guys have helped me so much and I thank you. Sorry if I’ve seemed defensive at times, it’s just who I am. Thanks to anyone who’s given me a suggestion, I really, really appreciate it. I’ll keep this thread updated unless nobody’s responding.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

loosie said:


> On this 'path' you are on, you ARE going to get hurt again, hopefully not too seriously. It is also likely you will make the horse more dangerous for ANYONE to deal with. Therefore you are putting others, including her at serious risk too - of being put down for being too dangerous. Therefore I cannot, in all conscience, continue this conversation.


This is why I quit giving advice on this thread. The thinking just one nip isn't a big deal is a problem, it will escalate into more then just a nip.. So I'll respectfully leave this thread now.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Guys, what I’m saying is that I AM going to ask for help, I am NOT going to stop riding her. They will help me tack up but that doesn’t mean I have to stop riding her. I gave her one strike (which she used two days ago) that is it. If she even tries one more time I’m asking for help. Even if she doesn’t try I’m going to tell them what happened. What else can I do? I really don’t want anybody to be mad at me or leave this thread. I’m really trying I’m just so shy sometimes it’s hard but again I will ask for help. If anybody will respond anymore, I’ll keep this posted because I’m riding today. If not then I guess there’s no point.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Ok everyone, this is probably going to be my last post on here unless someone has a suggestion (which as of now I don’t really need but I’m always open to suggestions) or something big happens. So I rode today and guess who was perfect tacking up and getting her hooves picked (no hay in her stall either!). No air biting just ear pinning which is fine. I did talk to the instructor. She asked how she was today and all the other days and I said lately she’s been good and today she was perfect. She said if anything like that ever happens again I need to tell her right away and she’ll deal with her. She said that if that doesn’t normally happen (which it doesn’t) then she doesn’t need to help me especially since she was fine today. However I need to tell her immediately if it ever happens again, which I will. But thank you guys so much, you’ve helped me more than you even know.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I haven't read all the replies but my advice would be to put the bridle on first (which you should do anyway) put the halter on and tie her up. When you go to saddle take the right rein and keep a hold of it so she cannot turn her head to bite you.


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## Bailey Mcfall (Sep 23, 2020)

hmm...if a good whack or redirecting attention doesn't work I'd guess that she has ulcers or maybe some back pain. Maybe have a chiropractic vet or a masseuse come out to take a look at her if an ulcer treatment (there are cheap options, talk to your vet) doesn't work and if you can. I have a mare that had chronic back pain (she was sometimes "girthy" and usually had her ears back and was in a bad mood). Had a masseuse come out to take a look at her and she found a knot in her back near her spine; worked it out and she's been a-ok ever since then.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

I haven’t updated in a while so I figured I’d give a little update. So she hasn’t gotten worse although I can’t say she’s gotten better. A few people have expressed their concerns about how she might get too aggressive and have to be put down... But I’m happy to say that it’s definitely a me problem. So basically I’ve asked for help and the instructor or her sister will come in and hold her. Of course, Betty knows they won’t put up with it and she acts like a perfect pony. However, she knows I’ll let her get away with it so whenever I tack her up alone she’s back to how she was. All they say since they can’t actually see what’s happening is to not let her treat me like that. But how I don’t know (but I kind of do because of something else that happened...)

I actually saw how I can make her respect me. So I was at a show and all ready and my one friend (who never had tacked up Betty) tacked her up for me because she didn’t want my clothes to get grey hairs all over them. So she goes in and Betty acts like she does with me. She gives her a snack and says “Betty knock it off” Betty continues and my friend does the same thing maybe 2 more times. Then I saw Betty change. Instead of biting at her, she air bites in the opposite direction. So I think that’s all I need to do. So I guess knowing what to do isn’t the problem, it’s getting the guts to actually do it and not giving in. That’s how it worked with everyone else so I’m going to do that next time (unless someone thinks it’s a bad idea).

Also thought I’d say that I’ve been getting there 10ish minutes before feeding time and they don’t feed her until after I ride but they feed everyone else. One of the days I got the instructor (I think it was her sister that time) to help me, the instructor said that she was probably really annoyed and that could’ve been why she was being worse that day. So I won’t be riding during feeding time anymore.

Also I remember a while back someone asking if she was like this with other horses. So I’ve been watching her and it depends. With the one horse (Cinnamon), they are stall neighbors and there’s a hole in the bottom of the wall that separates them. So Betty sticks her head and tries to steal the other horse’s hay (when there is hay). When Cinnamon comes over, Betty bites her and pulls her head back with pinned ears. When there isn’t hay, she normally doesn’t do that except for around feeding time and she does the same thing just minus the stealing hay.

Anyways thought I’d give an update and see if anyone had any new advice. Thanks!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I have not read this whole thing... just your first and last post. I'm curious, does this pony test you while leading or while riding? She sounds like she could be one of two things: a nervous mare full of angst and aggression (which could be due to pain, a handling/training issue, or something else), or just a dominant personality mare. My own mare is a dominant type, and she absolutely tests her handler/rider in everything until they have earned her respect. Not necessarily aggressive, just tries to get away with stuff and generally be uncooperative to see if you can make her do it. Once that happens though, she's very easy to work with.
Your pony sounds like she could be dominant, BUT, the fact that after being told off by your friend she was biting the air to the other side makes me think that perhaps there is something going on there physically/pain wise.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@horseluvr2524 , she does test me a lot,I think she is one of those dominant type horses. I really am hoping they’re getting a new saddle in case that is the reason especially because she could use a new one anyways. They said they ordered one only to then tell me the saddle guy didn’t get back to them. I think why she air bit was because my friend was tightening the girth 3 holes at a time and I do it very slowly. Normally, she only “bites” when I put her saddle on and then she might throw her head up when I put on her girth, but not usually air bites anymore. So I really think it’s her saddle or just me letting her get away with it. Thanks!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Yes, quick girth tightening is the #1 cause of a horse being "girthy", or trying to bite and generally acting upset during that process. The fact that the pony has made progress with you on this is a good sign.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@horseluvr2524 yep I figured out she needs her girth tightened slow or she’ll be awful. Now I forgot to mention we kind of went backwards in a sense. I know you guys are going to go off on me but whatever I need help. So basically she won’t let me pick her front hooves before I ride. I’ve tried having people hold her and she’s fine (if it’s someone she knows is in charge which are basically the only people I ask). But as soon as they leave, she’s back to her old self. The hoof being in pain isn’t the problem, this is the whole story.

So basically once she bit me as we all know when I picked her one hoof. That made me drop it and then ever sense she was fussy about her 1 hoof. Then one day she gets super fussy about it so I don’t pick that hoof. Then it was the same thing with the other one that wasn’t a problem before. And before I knew it, whenever I touch lightly the top of her leg (to bring down my hand and ask her to lift) she tries to bite. I think a habit now for Betty. So I see what @loosie was saying before and I’m sorry for not listening. But the problem is is that whenever someone holds her she’s fine which is great but some times they can’t hold her for me. And they get pretty annoyed by it so I hate asking. So I’ve just stopped picking her front hooves before I get bit again but I do her back hooves before and after I ride and her front hooves after I ride. My friend wouldn’t dare do her hooves without me holding her so I didn’t see how it played out.

So I read on a different forum (not this one I don’t know what it was) but someone said that if she throws her head back then to slap the ground with a lunge whip(I’ll probably just use my dressage whip) as a warning (like horses do with each other I guess). And if they do anything again then you slap them since you already gave them a warning. I might try that but does anybody know what to do when a horse does this? The only reason I let her get away with it is because I’m not facing her so I don’t know if she’s coming at me to bite me. I don’t want people to get mad at me and tell me I should’ve listened, the past is in the past, but I do want advice. Also I’m not giving up because I love Betty too much to do that. But I will take any advice that I can. So any advice? Thanks!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Why don't you just tie her before picking out her hooves so she can't bite you? If you're still too close, turn to face her and if you see her start to make a face, give her a good smack with the flat of your hand somewhere on her body. But stay beyond where she can reach you since she's tied.

(Edited to say I just read through and see others have already given you this advice.)


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@gottatrot thanks, how do I tie her though (I know that’s a stupid question but I actually don’t know how). And also what do I tie her to if she’s in her stall?


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

So since I didn’t figure out how to tie her, I just tried that without tying her. And it took some persistence but it kind of worked! So I go with the mindset that no I’m not going to give in. Then she tried to bite me while touching her leg to ask to pick her hoof, I slap her. She does it again. I say knock it off and slap her. This happened for maybe 5 min and right before she gave in, if I even touched her she’d try to bite. Then she gave in. Same thing on the other side just took a little bit longer (this was the leg that originally gave me trouble). So I’m hoping that she’ll realize it’s not work the effort and just not try to bite.

The only time I backed away was that she was giving me trouble with the girth. She was testing me (probably because of the hoof thing) and she backed up and I could tell she was going to bite and if I waited then I would’ve been trapped between her and the water bucket so I backed away. She through her head back and I slapped her and after that she was fine for the saddle.

Finally was the bridle. Now normally she’s perfect about it but last time I rode, I had to change the bit on my own (I asked for help but they said they were busy and I could figure it out) since J had just been at a show where she uses a different bit. So I put it on backwards (without knowing) and put it on but it seems wrong. So I try to fix it and I tried again. It still didn’t look right so I got someone to fix it. So obviously that was uncomfortable for her mouth and after that she wouldn’t take the bit like normal. So I can see why she was fussy about it. But anyways, I wish I would’ve listened to this sooner, again sorry I didn’t really listen. Thanks!


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

I’m gonna update even though I don’t know if anybody looks at this or cares anymore but it helps me organize my thoughts and I guess just in case someone has advice. Anyways, since last time she’s been better. The time after that she was perfect about the hooves. 2 times after she was back to how she was before but I told her off and she let me pick her hooves. It was the first day it’s been in the 30s here so I can see why (she was feisty in general). Today, she was good, she did try to bite me after I picked up her hoof and I dropped it but I picked it up again to let her know that that wouldn’t make me not pick it.

So I’ve been paying attention to when I ride and how she is so I’m going to rate how she is depending on the scenario.
1. When she has hay she is generally the best behaved 2. When it’s a neutral time (not right before feeding time) she is pretty good 3. When her stall neighbor isn’t in her stall she is better because she gets all bitey at her neighbor (who always has hay in her stall I think because she’s older and Betty always wants the hay) which makes her more bitey towards me 4. On warm days she’s generally better 5.On cold days when she’s used to warm days she’s not the best to deal with in general (very sensitive to the weather according to the trainer who has had he since she was born) and from experience 6. Before feeding time she’s the worst to deal with in general 

Anyways, I’m gonna be done updating this unless anyone has any advice or something big happens.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> she did try to bite me after I picked up her hoof and I dropped it but I picked it up again to let her know that that wouldn’t make me not pick it.


Just remember, horses need _instant_ feedback to 'connect the dots'. She told you off, you dropped the foot - so it worked for her. Doesn't matter what you did next. Punishment or reward must happen _*at the time of the behaviour*_ you want to influence.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

True, that already happened though so I have no control over that. I’d rather focus on next time which I can control. So next time I won’t do that. I realized that was happening a couple weeks ago when I was putting on her saddle or whatever I was doing then I would stop what I was doing if she tried to bite me but I’m trying not to anymore it’s just my reaction. But what should I do when I’m bent over and can’t see her? Like last time I did anything while picking her hooves well she bit me since I couldn’t see her and push her head away or anything.

I would just ask for help (which I do if she’s really bad) which would temporarily solve the problem. But my instructor’s words and I’m sure people will agree it has to come from me. Sure, she’ll be perfectly behaved when the instructor comes over since she knows the instructor won’t let her get away with it but what about when she’s not there. I mean if she didn’t know how to behave then I obviously wouldn’t be the one teaching her. But she knows how to behave and does it for other people, it’s just a matter of me telling her off which I get really nervous about. I really want her to respect me but I need to be the one to get her to I guess is what I’m trying to say.

But yeah what should I do when I’m picking her hooves? Because if I want to discipline her then I’d have to be able to see what she’s doing so I don’t get bit again. But then I also can’t drop the hoof because that’s what she wants. Any advice?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

As I've said before my advice is, for safety's sake you don't deal with this horse alone. Yes, that won't teach her to put up with _you_ but I think your safety is a smidge more important.

If/as you're going to do it anyway, tie her up. Won't stop other undesirable responses from her but will stop her being able to bite.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie well I want to tie her but I don’t know how/what to tie her to. I’ve asked on here but nobody responds to that. So how do I do it? What do I tie her to in her stall? Edit: what if I had someone other than the trainers hold her? Like my mom or something because at shows that’s what I do since I normally have to tack her up faster than at home. Would that work instead or is tying better?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

If the horses are tacked up in the stalls, you could ask the stable if they could install an eye bolt for you to tie to.
Only tie a horse of you know how to use a quick release knot.
Otherwise, if there is a feeder you can loop a lead around, sometimes you can trick a horse into thinking they are tied.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

I just thought of something. So I have no clue how to tie a horse and once my instructor tried tying her (maybe she just looped it to trick her I didn’t really pay attention) I don’t know what kind of knot but she just undid it when she moved her head so I don’t think I could trick her (but I’ll try). But she used to have a cross tie in her stall but then they took it out to use for something else so maybe I could ask for them to put it in there again? It wouldn’t fully restrict her but it would be better than nothing and it did restrict her enough that she couldn’t eat hay unless I kicked it really close to the cross tie so it would work I guess. Or maybe they’ll let me use the grooming stalls, I’ll have to see.

I think they only put it there because it made me more comfortable when we started to have to tack them up in their stalls since once I had a bad experience in her stall. So this was maybe 1 or 2 years ago and hasn’t happened since but it really scared me for a long time after. So all the grooming stalls were getting used so I had to tack her up in her stall. She was being awful and I went to put her ear plugs in. She tried to bite me and I slapped her and she turned around and pinned me with her butt against the wall. Luckily she didn’t kick me or anything. So then I obviously got help and had the trainers hold her outside of her stall and they always made sure that I could have a grooming stall for a few months after that happened. Now I’m not scared of that happening because she hasn’t done that and I walk behind her all the time (I use my hand to tell her where I am).


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

You mean there is not even anything TO tie her to?? Betty yet again, you have told us of yet another seriously dangerous situation, dangerous set up they are just leaving you in. You SHOULD be afraid of dealing with this horse unrestrained in her stall! It is not unreasonable of you - it is just yet one more eg of their negligence of your safety. No way I'd be putting kids in that situation in a pink fit! Do your parents know what dangers these people are putting their daughter in??


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Is there a reason to tack her up in her stall instead of tied somewhere safe?


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie oh ok. Yeah they do but they think it’s kind of funny because they know absolutely nothing about horses and I always pretend everything’s fine. There isn’t really anything to tie her to and someone just told me on this thread unless I know how to do it in a quick release knot then I shouldn’t but no there’s not anything really to tie her to. The cross tie was attached to this loop of twine or something. So I guess that’s something but it’s pretty high in the air (like a foot taller than Betty’s head) so it probably wouldn’t work to tie her to, only for something to hang a cross tie down from and then attach it to her halter. @egrogan yes, because of covid they don’t want to have people sharing spaces (grooming stalls) I don’t really know I don’t make the rules, just follow them.
I just don’t know what to do anymore. And I have to ride tomorrow (or I’ll get yelled at and threatened to get horse riding totally taken away). I love Betty to death, I’m just not brave enough to tell her off hard so I have to do something else but I don’t know what.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Bettythepony said:


> @egrogan yes, because of covid they don’t want to have people sharing spaces (grooming stalls) I don’t really know I don’t make the rules, just follow them.


That does make sense. I think I would ask my instructor to create a place to tie. Someone mentioned earlier putting in a tie ring. For $35, if you had permission to drill into the stall (into a solid beam or stud, NOT to a board), you could buy a Blocker Tie Ring (any tack store or a place like Smartpak has them: https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/blocker-tie-ring). There are videos and instructions online about to use this safely. If you need a less expensive option, you could screw a heavy duty eye-ring into a beam, and use a breakaway trailer tie hooked to that and clipped to your mares halter (Dura-Tech® Double Ply Adjustable Nylon Trailer Ties | Schneiders Saddlery)

You do want something that attaches higher up (like you described, above her head) because it’s safer that way-less chance of getting a leg caught over or under the rope and panicking.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@egrogan thanks! Those trailer things look exactly the same as the crosstie thing that used to be in her stall. They have the same top and the material is the same, just what clips to her halter was a different type of clip. Tomorrow, I’ll look closer at what the thing was that the crosstie/trailer tie was attached to because I really don’t pay attention to it. Only thing is, I have no clue what the difference is between beams and boards lol.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Quote button not working so doing manually...



> but they think it’s kind of funny because they know absolutely nothing about horses and I always pretend everything’s fine.


You really need to be taking it seriously. I do remember when I was... of the invincible age myself. But there comes a time when you realise that no one's going to give you a new back, or a new head, if yours gets busted. And you realise that some of the things you were once blase about, with more life experience, were plurry dangerous! So I can only tell you, again, from an older person's experience, it is not worth putting yourself in this level of risk!



> The cross tie was attached to this loop of twine or something. So I guess that’s something but it’s pretty high in the air (like a foot taller than Betty’s head) so it probably wouldn’t work to tie her to,


The only difference between tying a horse regularly or x-tying is that you have a restraint either side of the horse, rather than just one. If you're not sure whether the horse will pull back or such, tying to twine is a bit of a 'safety precaution' - they will break easily, rather than breaking their gear or themselves if they panic. And tying that high is also no problem - it's safer to tie a horse above at least wither height.



> If you need a less expensive option, you could screw a heavy duty eye-ring


I second the Blocker Tie ring as a handy piece of kit. But yeah, they're not cheap for what they are - as is anything with 'horse' in the title! There's another specifically horsey contraption that's good & cheaper(well, it was...) called The Clip and there are abseiling 'Figure 8's' which you can essentially use the same way. And if you have any old single joint snaffles floating around, cutting open the joint with a grinder(& rounding sharp edges off) will give you essentially the same beast as a Blocker Tie ring.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@loosie so basically I have to ride today so I’ll check out what the thing the trailer tie/cross tie (it wasn’t cross ties like in the grooming stalls, it was just a single one and it looks like the trailer ties so I think that’s what it was) was attached to and then update this. I mean I take it seriously but my parents don’t is what I was saying. Like I’ll say oh Betty bit my butt today (that one time) and they’ll just laugh. Or Betty was naughty today in her stall and they just say oh of course, it’s Betty. 

To me, it’s worth it (but of course I’ll take precautions not to get hurt when possible) so we just have to agree to disagree. I mean with that mindset we all might as well not ride because no matter how dependable the horse is, we could fall off any second and die. At least that’s my point of view on that. I mean I’ll obviously try not to get hurt but that doesn’t mean stopping and giving up. Some things aren’t worth it and some are and it might not seem worth it to you, but it is for me. Just like something worth it to you won’t seem worth it to me. Or to some people, riding isn’t worth the risk but to us it is. But yes, if it gets out of hand I’ll have someone else tack her up or have the trainer hold her so she behaves. And no matter what, I’m going to get something in there to make it safer. But yeah, I’ll update this after I ride today.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

So I checked when I rode and it was twine but like really thick and strong so I think it’ll work. I’m going to have my mom text and ask because I’m scared to ask. I know it’s bad that I’m not asking but it needs to be done somehow. I guess she’ll just ask if they can put the crosstie back in her stall because I don’t feel comfortable without it. Also, when I was riding, I passed by someone tacking up who was using the cross ties/trailer ties in their stall and it was also attached to the same type of rope/twine so I think it should be fine. But it’s not my job to figure that out anyways, it’s the trainers job.

And I know it seems like the trainers are putting me in an unsafe situation but I don’t think they know how bad it is. Like whenever they come and hold her she just behaves so they probably think she was just pinning her ears or something harmless and it scared me. I mean I do explain it but they probably think I’m over exaggerating or it was just because it was feeding time (the times I asked for help was always at feeding time).


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I think at this point they probably feel you should have enough experience to handle it and use effective correction. That you haven't says to me you need more instruction in handling a horse from the ground.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

So I’m supposed to deal with it or no!? Everyone else is saying no and I should tie her up/cross tie her so thats what I’m going to do. It won’t solve the problem but according to them that’s fine and tying her up is better because I can stay safe. And to me that seems right so that’s what I’m going to do. And at some point, I might be able to punish her with the crosstie on and I’ll be out of her reach. But I don’t know how that will work so one thing at a time.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I've been following most of this saga for 3 months and not said a word,_ till now.
Your last post is disturbing to a adult reading your story...
First off I mean no disrespect, recognize your are "a kid" and will tell you up front my words are not sugar-coated but hard facts told the way I see them. 
I write bluntly and to the point but never a put-down to anyone..._

You are going to have to "deal with it"....it being a very broad slate of things you yet need to learn how to do,what is acceptable or not for the horse to do and how to go about getting the right response to a bad situation, aka turning it around.
You do not ask at that moment for the help as you just said you need to ask your mom to intervene for you...
A kid or not ,you _do_ recognize the danger you are in or you would not of started this topic nor reached out for help.
Speak up and ask...be recognized for being mature enough to know you need help.

Your trainers when they do come to help you are experienced handlers of horse{s} and know how to work with and around them, to keep themselves a safe distance and to project a attitude the animal respects and not be pushed around as this animal does to you.
That takes time to learn how to do, and only by asking how, watching and being watched while working with and doing, from them slightly out of sight will the horse learn you are not as ignorant of horse-handling technique as you once were...
That _is not _a put down nor picking on you...it is stating a fact that you have yet a lot to learn and in the meantime are in danger from this animals actions aimed at you and your innocence of not knowing how to do better.

That cross-tie thing in the stall *is* supposed to be above their head a foot or so and then ties adjusted so the horse_ is not_ able to put the head to the ground, but able to stand at a natural head elevation and restrict movement and motion _to protect you._
You mention showing and trailering so you obviously have seen inside a horse truck or trailer and that horses heads are restrained when in transit...same idea and for the same reasons...to restrict motion and keep all inhabitants safer.
You've seen cross-ties in various places at the barn and used them so know what it should resemble.
_No bungee cords used_ and a solid trailer tie, a long lead shank secured to the wall, or appropriate length chain with clips...the horse can't go to far if they object cause guess what...a solid wall is what their body meets.
Best for you would be to have a tie on either side of the stall so you are using a real cross-tie situation and only now the butt-end of the horse is free to shift your way easily...

As for "punishing the horse"..._please don't._
By your own admission you have no clue of what is right or wrong nor how to do "punishing" and that is what will get you hurt at the least, possibly broken bones, a fractured skull, broken back or dead at the most...no joke and yes it is accurate in what you could face.
You are not going to "punish" a 1000 pound animal as you think...😐
You would be lucky is you only got a nasty bite but unleash the nasty every horse has when provoked and you have more horse attacking you than you or most anyone knows how to react to and get safely away, especially confined in a stall and I bet you don't keep your back to the opening so if the nasty hits you can't get out fast enough and will get hurt...

No one here is being rude, nasty or blaming you...
We are experienced, learned from the school of been there done it and some done it wrong to try to warn you, to offer helpful comment and to shake you up enough to realize you may be in over your head and going to get hurt..
If your parents are not your advocate to get you correct help and learning how to do with horses...  then they need a awakening of what this horse is capable of and what you have been desperately asking for help with....
YouTube videos, google some up of what happens when a horse attacks a human in a stall environment, when a horse has other bad habits and no correction and let them see, let them watch what could happen to you....
Warwick Schiller is a known and recognized trainer and often has some good videos to share and people speak highly of him and his ways...
Here's one_* 



*_ , just one of his videos...and this horse is a nothing in a stall to deal with!
_*However, don't ever, never ever close and lock a stall door behind you with a horse and you together inside a stall...*
I can not believe he did that in a video others will watch and copy his actions of....OMG!_
The reason being, you have no escape if something goes even a bit wrong you are a sitting duck for a terrible beating or horrible death by a angry horse...and it happens!
I could not believe Warwick did such a thing, and no I did not have on sound, actions were enough seen to alarm me...but normally the man is a wealth of sound advice, to watch, to learn how to approach and do help...
Nothing though is as good as in-person help from learned professionals or good horseman helping you, teaching you how to do safely...cause right now the help is not so good your barn is offering you.

Please do take the comments made by all the posters in this lengthy 3 month long and ongoing thread of your problems with this horse as people trying to help you, to offer to you a means to be safe and work through issues you seem to be having.
We are not "kids", have years of experience behind us and honestly, you need to be open to reading words that _are_ critical of what you are doing to learn, to apply what is being offered because many of us have been where you are and know what it is to be frightened, scared and in over our head...
Recognizing your ability and your limitations are the first step in truly finding solutions to your issue{s} and being able to ask the right people to help you, to show and educate you in how they do and how to do horse-related things safely with the same animal you are currently being threatened by...

I will now go back to lurking and reading, but you can not pass the blame to others always either.
You _are_ a kid, but at some time you _need_ to be held accountable for your actions and the reactions of animals in your care and handling so you can learn from your mistakes made...called growing up.
We, all of us have had criticism aimed at us as we learned, cause no one is born knowing how to do...you learn by watching others, by getting in trouble and someone bailing you out...rinse, repeat on issue after issue after issue.
When working with animals you never stop learning and applying new knowledge to find a better, a safer way of doing...or you will get hurt that is a fact.
I offer you the best of good instruction come your way, be safe and be always aware of your surroundings.
🐴 ...
_jmo..._


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Ok... I didn’t word my last comment right. By dealing with it I mean punishing. I’m going to do the cross ties either way. The way I saw the comment, it confused me. Yeah obviously I don’t have enough groundwork skills or I would’ve solved this problem way earlier. But does that matter if I’m going to crosstie her anyways? Because I thought that was supposed to be doing and I wasn’t supposed to punish her. So I was just confused. 

Ok so when my trainer came in and she tried to bite (she did it once at the beginning) she slapped her face hard and took a step towards her when she moved her head away. Then she didn’t try to bite again. One time a horse was misbehaving outside of Betty’s stall at a show. The trainer was screaming at him and he might’ve stopped misbehaving but I didn’t see because I tripped and banged my head hard. One time Betty was misbehaving in the trailer and she yelled at her and it helped a little. When I ask for help all they have to do is walk in and she’s perfect. So they’ve already proved their dominance to Betty. So they can’t really teach me how if that’s what you mean because they literally can’t see it happen. And all those things are punishments which I’m not supposed to do (and yes I can see why). But I can learn from those experiences for when I have enough experience to punish her 🙂. 

Yes I know how cross ties work I meant for if I was going to tie her. I don’t know how tying works so I don’t know if what you’re tying the horse to is supposed to be taller than them or not because I’ve never seen a horse tied besides Betty in her stall (the trainers tied her before they set up a crosstie or whatever the heck it was) at her head level but it didn’t work so I’m thinking they just looped it because I can’t even remember. What I meant by trailer tie was the thing they had in her stall before was like something someone linked and they called it a breakaway trailer tie or something at least that’s what I saw. And that’s what looked like the thing in her stall was. We ordered cross ties and the trainer said they would set them up so that’s good 🙂. And a set of them so even better.

And I know everyone is trying to help, I’m sorry I do take things _very_ personally so sometimes it might seem like I’m taking things too personally because well I am. Some responses that I know were meant to be helpful made me cry and feel awful which again I know is stupid but I’m way too sensitive. I know I seem very defensive and again it’s because I am defensive especially when I’m upset (even if it’s over nothing).I’ll respond with a comment and an hour later regret it. But whatever nobody cares about that they’re just here to help with horses. So I guess I’ll update tomorrow or Friday depending on when I ride and there will be cross ties set up!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Betty it isn't so much about punishment when you develop the skills and presence that says to any horse - don't mess with me. Doesn't mean they won't test but you will pass those little tests so they don't escalate to putting you in your place when your back is turned.

Yes having cross ties or a tie can help. If you haven't learned how to tie then you need to. You won't always have cross ties to tie them with. It is a very valuable skill to have. Not one you have to have a horse on hand to learn with. The Boy Scouts have some basic knot tying publications that teach all kinds of knots including quick release. Spending some time learning about safety - like tying a horse above the head or at least level with among other things is something everyone that handles horses needs. There is so much more to horses than riding and you know that or you wouldn't be asking questions.

As HLG mentioned we all started at the beginning. None of us were born knowing.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Ok so little did I know I had to ride today. Ugh and the cross ties aren’t here yet. It was today I realized (not even realized more like admitted to myself) that I’m scared of Betty. Not just a little but almost terrified. I mean I’ve always been a little nervous (and that’s for literally everything) but not like this. It’s so awful. Like I’m practically begging her to comply without killing me. I know this is the problem but it’s one I don’t know how to fix. Mind over matter but also not because it’s actually dangerous. But only because I’m making it be that way since I’m scared. But I don’t know how to not be scared. It’s just a cycle that keeps going.

And my mom came in today when I was tacking up and as you know she doesn’t take this seriously (she just doesn’t realize how dangerous it is even if I try to tell her). So she was like I’ll hold her and Betty was fine with that. It’s because she wasn’t scared (even though she probably should’ve been). What do you do when your scared of your (not mine but the only horse I ride/half lease) horse? I’d just stop but we’re actually doing really good (better even) riding which is strange. I think it’s because I’m not scared when I ride. Only when I’m tacking up. And the cross ties will be here by the next time I ride so that will be a little better. But I’m seriously asking what should I do? Ride a different horse for now? I don’t want to but I will if that’s the only good way.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Yeah, I think it seems like it's hard for her owner / trainer to understand how she's behaving with you. Maybe they have her all straightened out with them, so they can't even really imagine her being that bad. If they can't get themselves to believe it, they will have a hard time motivating themselves to help you out.

I like what @QtrBel says about presence. I think this is so true. There are people at my barn who can shout and yell and raise Cain, and the horses don't pay any attention. Honestly I think this is the majority of horse people. But I have seen others (and not very many, but there are some) who can just raise their voice a little and wave their hand around and the horses pay attention and behave.

I wish you had someone there who treated horses respectfully but firmly that you could observe. You can learn so much from the right person. One resource you might try is CRK training (just google them). They have lots and lots of short videos, a lot of times with problem horses. I'd say they are about half and half riding and groundwork. I like Callie's approach because she is always clear about who is in charge (her, obviously) but she is a really kind person who uses the least amount of force to get a result.

Basically I don't really have any solutions for you except to maybe check out the above. I admire your tenacity; it will serve you well in life.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

To answer the question you just posted, if I had a horse that I was afraid of on the ground, but did well with under saddle, I'd ask the owner / trainer to tack her up for me. I would explain why. If they wouldn't do that, then I wouldn't have anything to do with the horse. You guys are in a vicious cycle right now. You're afraid of her, so she feels dominant over you. She's going to express that dominance physically and you're not going to retaliate because you're scared. And then it's just going to get worse. And I don't blame you at all for being scared. But a horse can really, really hurt you. You asked what we would do -- that's what I would do.

And while she can't bite you when she's in crossties, she can still kick. It's possible that she might, if her head is restrained. So I'm not sure how much of a solution that would really be. Although I haven't been reading every post.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

Yeah that’s what I was thinking. I’m just so mad that I’m scared because it affects everything. Like she’s way worse when I’m scared which only makes me more scared which makes her even worse, etc. l don’t think she kicks but I don’t want to find out the hard way. I know she didn’t used to on the cross ties but I wasn’t scared then so who really knows. I’m just realizing how lucky I am that I haven’t actually gotten hurt. I could be dead right now. That’s how I’ve been thinking lately. It’s a good thing to be cautious but it’s also making me way more scared which just makes the whole situation worse. I just feel like they’ll make fun of me for not being able to tack up a horse I’ve been able to tack up for years. My safety is more important so I guess that doesn’t matter.

I think I’m going to give the cross ties one try since who knows she could be better and I haven’t tried that yet. But if I’m still scared of her then I’m having someone else tack her up. Or if she tries anything like kicking because obviously that’s way too dangerous.
Edit: And also I’ll look up those videos!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Don't be mad at yourself because your gut is working overtime to keep you safe...
Your inner being recognizes far better the danger this horse puts you in...
In time, you will learn to listen to your gut, not ignore it.
Those gut feelings will keep you safer...

_It is past time to just level with your mom and your instructor._
Just tell them you are very afraid of the horse as the horse acts out towards you when you are one-on-one and you no longer want to deal with the attitude and threats of biting or worse the animal presents to you.
You would like to continue to ride the horse as you are working together well once astride, but no more tacking or grooming as you are truly afraid of being hurt by the horse.

*If you can't say it...*_*stick the computer in front of your mother and tell her to read as it is about you and Betty.*_
You don't know how else to get it through to anyone how frightened of the animal you are and fear is sensed by the animal and she is going to hurt you, it is just a matter of time...period.
If that doesn't rock some sense into a few I don't know what else to tell you except refuse to go to the barn, refuse to ride that animal or have anymore interaction with it...
Rarely do our gut reaction and feelings steer us wrong....
You are growing in leaps and bounds when you learn to stand up for yourself and you are nearly to that point making yourself heard you are serious with no more except to ride Betty, no more.
🐴 ...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bettythepony said:


> to bite (she did it once at the beginning) she slapped her face hard and took a step .... The trainer was screaming at him .... Betty was misbehaving in the trailer and she yelled at her and it helped a little. ... So they’ve already proved their dominance to Betty. So they can’t really teach me how


I agree, it sounds like THEY can't teach you a lot _that's helpful to you_. It is not because they have 'proved dominance' but while a slap in the face may or may not be reasonable IMO, depending on the circumstances, if they scream & yell at horses, that... Doesn't give me a good feeling of their skill & knowledge level.




> But I can learn from those experiences for when I have enough experience to punish her 🙂.


Yup, but learn what not to do by the sounds...



> I don’t know how tying works so I don’t know if what you’re tying the horse to


So as we have said, you need to ask the instructor! They should at least be able to teach you to tie a horse safely.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I suggest you read HLG's post at least a couple of times, esp the summary below. You are not to blame & have absolutely no reason to feel stupid about any of this.



horselovinguy said:


> Don't be mad at yourself because your gut is working overtime to keep you safe......
> Those gut feelings will keep you safer...
> ...
> _It is past time to just level with your mom and your instructor ..._..
> ...


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

First of all, Happy Thanksgiving! So I told my mom I’m scared of Betty and I don’t want to tack her up anymore. And now she’s really annoyed with me and is telling me the cross ties will help. And I said well what if she kicks. And she says then don’t go near her legs (she doesn’t understand at all) and go around in front of her. And I said well then she’ll bite me. And she said then smack her. And I said well that doesn’t work because she knows I’m scared so she’ll attack me after. Then I say I don’t want to tack her up anymore period. And she says then don’t ride her. Then I say well I still want to ride her. Then she says then you tell the instructor that. And I said I don’t want to (I just can’t get myself to tell my instructor it was hard enough to tell my mom) and she said fine then I will. But I can’t tell if she was sarcastic and I doubt she’ll actually do it and definitely not today since it’s thanksgiving.

I have to ride tomorrow and apparently they have to set up the cross ties after I ride so they won’t even be set up for next time I ride! I’m hoping she’ll tell the instructor because maybe she’ll understand (although doubtful with her personality). I’m just sure she’ll say well you need to tell her off and blah blah blah. But we’ll see. Maybe since I’m scared it’ll be different this time. No point in speculating and I’ll try my best to convince my mom to text her without annoying her. And also thought I’d point out Betty “greets” me with pinned ears and that just makes me lose any hope that she’s going to be better. So I’m basically terrified before I even get in her stall... I won’t do it anymore though I’m not going in her stall anymore I’ll refuse.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

So...Betty is _not_ yours. You _don't_ own this animal.
_*She is a lesson horse currently you get assigned.
Why must you only ride this animal?*
Does this barn not have other lesson horses of similar training and ability?_
I truly don't think your mom gets it and if me...your fear you can not conquer has you in danger of serious injury by this animal..
Your mom said the magic words..._DON'T RIDE._
So don't ride....
Your point would be made loudly when you step away from something your parent knows how much you love doing.
It is time you pull up your big-girl panties and tell you instructor you want a different horse and why.
If you could tell thousands of readers on this forum of your issues as you've been doing, then you can stand with one person who is supposed to be protecting you as you learn that no more will you handle the horse as when they are not present she is a very different animal to you.
_You feel threatened and are truly afraid. You *are* entitled to those feelings!!_
There is no reason to continue on with Betty cause although you say you have no fear astride, you don't just turn off like a switch that kind of fear...
If you ever fell off do you realize what and where you be with this animal and what you must do to regain the saddle...
True fear is not so easily switched on/off as you make claims.
Betty has a lot more ability to hurt you, hurt you differently astride, but still hurt you just like she does when grooming, handling and tacking up...

To me it is all or nothing..
Betty is no more and you ride and handle another or not ride, period.
And if mom can't understand how fear is paralyzing to the mind, reason and ability to handle than she never has experienced and has no clue about the power a 1000 pound animal is against your ...what 120 pounds of child.
Me, the gauntlet has been thrown..._different mount or not ride._
If you're serious, that is the ultimatum you live with..
No more ongoing saga of months worth of this kind of thread getting you no place...done, its done and over one way or the other.
That is a adult leveling with other adults...put the issue for your instructor to see and make changes of, or stop riding at this facility before your paralyzing fear gets you hurt. 
That is my opinion and recommendation, one you will not like,* but*...its time to pull up the big-girl panties.
🐴 ...


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

HLG it is my understanding the parents leased this pony for her so that is why she is stuck.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

It really stinks that @Bettythepony 's mother is so callous about the whole thing. I can just imagine, the pony's owner told the mother, "Oh, Betty is a really nice pony, your daughter just needs to deal with her little antics," and the mother just nodded her head and believed it. It doesn't seem like the mother realizes how dangerous the situation is. @Bettythepony told her she was scared, and she just brushed it off. I wish she could read all of the responses here to get a better understanding of the situation.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

@QtrBel yep that’s the problem. And what makes it worse is that I’ve been (half) leasing her for 3 years so my mom doesn’t understand why I’m all of the sudden scared. @ACinATX true and well the instructor is the owner... And yeah I’ve been leasing her for 3 years so my mom really doesn’t understand why I’m all of a sudden scared. I could try to show her this but I’m gonna guess it’ll make her mad. She hates when I look stuff up and anything of the sort. @horselovinguy well I lease her so it’s not that easy. I mean there are other horses I could ride but I still have to lease her for a month after I want to stop so it wouldn’t matter. And since my parents are paying for it they’ll make me ride. I know it sounds weird but I don’t mind falling off. Just maybe 2 weeks ago I fell off after a jump and got back on and did it again. But I see what you mean and I wasn’t really scared of her then so I don’t really know. I guess I’m more cautious than usual when I’m riding, making sure not to get her mad than usual just not really scared. Although I have been really nervous to jump not sure if it’s related to the falling off or the overall fear. Probably both.

So I don’t even know what I can do at this point. I mean I can’t stop riding her. I can’t tack her up. But I have to somehow ride. I mean I could try tacking her up with the cross ties. But I’ll still be scared so I’m not sure they’ll help the situation very much. I could have the instructor tack her up for me. But I don’t know if she’s willing to do that.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Here's a different approach: Tomorrow, walk into the stall with your shoulders back, your body tall, and the expectation that Betty WILL behave on those cross-ties. If you've been leasing her for three years and haven't been pummeled by her, think about what's changed the last few weeks when you've become scared of her. I fear this thread has convinced you that Betty is a vicious killer and you have to be quaking in your boots whenever you're near her. If that was not an issue the past 3 years, then why now. None of us are there and can see what's happening, and I didn't go back to the beginning of the thread, but if I remember, this started off as nipping and then you started getting an onslaught of advice, which mostly told you to be afraid of the horse. So try this next time: on your way to the barn, in your mind, imagine what it's like when you put Betty on the cross ties (or someone holds her) while you go through every step of tacking up Betty. When you imagine this, imagine that she just stands there, eating her hay. Not biting, not kicking. Just standing there. You know how to tack up your horse. Sure, continue asking for help. But you know how to tack up a horse. If the cross-ties aren’t ready, have your mom hold her again, don't dilly dally around tacking up, just go through each step quietly and efficiently.


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## Bettythepony (Aug 23, 2020)

That’s exactly why I’ve gotten more scared. Not that it’s anyone’s fault at all just that I’ve became very scared now. I know I keep changing my mind but I forgot about the whole leasing contract so that seems like the best alternative option for now. I’m going to have my mom hold her tomorrow and then by next time the crossties will be set up. I know the fear won’t go away overnight but I think if the crossties help I’ll be a lot less scared and then slowly regain my confidence (hopefully). 

And by experience that does work. Before I was scared of her but after she bit me, I went in with the mindset that no isn’t an option and that she would cooperate. And she was perfect. But then I started to get scared (even though she did nothing) and it just got worse. I just forget when I’m so scared. But you’re right I just need to remember that she’s been fine for the past 3 years and she’s not some crazy, violent animal unless I’m scared.

Some might say true fear wouldn’t just go away like that and I sorta agree but also disagree. I think that if something changes then the fear could go away but if nothing changes then it won’t go away. So I think that since something is changing (the cross ties/her being restrained) then I will become more comfortable and therefore less scared. But I’m just not going to overthink it. That’ll just make me more nervous about something that won’t happen if I’m not nervous. Anyways, I’ll update after tomorrow.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

You _don't_ have true fear though....
You have imagined fear and talked yourself into horrors of what I thought the pony had done to you already, not your vivid imagination has you dreaming of, and then embellishing the story here...
My apologies, the pony has done nothing wrong but be a pony who would rather not have to work and knows when you arrive it is work time.
She lays her ears at you...Through your teeth clenched growl at her "Quit" and say it with authority...you mean it not as a a mouse but a lion. Walk on past and if she moves growl again to stand"...'
You _don't_ need to yell, you _don't_ need to raise your voice nor your hand at this animal.
You need to get out of your head your imagined "Betty is going to do this, Betty is going to do that..."
Betty _isn't_ doing anything in actuality different than any horse does.

You got nipped, once...
Now you have talked yourself into near hysteria...
3 years you've ridden and handled this animal and now this?
Nope, not buying it anymore. 
The pony has no respect for you with how you act around her, that is your fault not hers.
She tested you for authority and following your leadership and you failed.
To me, this is not real but imagined nonsense at having ridden/handled for 3 years previous and it is no wonder your mother acts in response the way she does...
Your last post divulging also allows me to read between the lines pretty accurately I think.
Remember those big-girl panties I referred to...time to pull them up, buckle the belt and go ride with that mindset of Betty is a great pony and we will have a fabulous ride and time together.
No more of this...now the rest of the story comes out from you...
3 years and never a issue and suddenly this...
If all this pony ever did to you is give a nip...what did you do to deserve such a action from Betty?
Now change your approach and mindset ...
You're a winner not a loser and quitter...

I truly thought you were in distress and real trouble...trouble is your mind got you caught in imagining horrors and you believed them...
Sorry, I'm done and my attitude sure changed when "3 years of leasing her and now this..." came to be learned...
Yea, no...I'm bowing out, no more from me offering help/suggestions and support to you. Not here, not know, not on this..
Good luck and I do mean that...
🐴 ....


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

MOD NOTE: Thread closed for review.


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