# Pole distances training technique or bad trainer?



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

I have a general question about something I haven't heard and before I go off saying its wrong I thought I would look into it.

At the stables I'm at the gymkhana trainer sets the poles 12 feet apart, when ever I move them to 21 feet apart I get confronted and told that I need to stop messing with her course. The trainer has gotten quite angry about me moving the 'stables' owned poles. I move them back to their position when I'm done but still, if she sees me moving them she runs over to yell at me. Now for that I am ****ed, my horse can not canter the course when it is 12 feet and he is starting to swing his butt to avoid the poles and I will loosing the nice straight run with my horse. My horse also gets so frustrated that he started refusing to do the pole work (running out, balking, refusing to respond to any cues, mostly refusing to go faster than a trot) My horse is the kind that eagerly jumps in a canter and also is very sensitive and responsive to leg cues, unless his brain goes on overload in which I can barely direct rein him. Frankly I stopped working on poles because its screwing us up.

Now my question, is this an exercise to do such a short course? Its not good for Jake and me but does it have its purpose? All of her students and herself have a lot of trouble getting through the course on their own and are always knocking poles, horses breaking to a slower gait and their little riders yelling and hitting with whips when their horses merely cannot figure out how to move around the poles at that speed. 

Ugh.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I know of people who do this and I frankly don't see the point. I understand tightening your horse up and making him sharper, but I prefer using unrelated exercises and patterns to do that. I don't want my horse learning to run a shorter pattern, and then being confused when he has twice the room to move. If he's used to dodging back and forth immediately without even a stride, they're bound to mess up a longer course. Horses aren't human, they don't look AT the poles and measure the distance, they wait for rider cues and also go based on repetition. It may work for something like barrel racing where you're running the distance between regardless if it's shorter or longer, but I dislike it for poles.

Can you get your own poles and set up your own pattern?


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Pretty much the same as I was thinking. I didn't see the point. Anyhow, I am moving barns within two weeks so I will no longer have to deal with this trainer. But investing in my own pole set would have been a good idea. I am hoping that they will have a set at my new stables and they will be the regulated length apart, or I hope I will be aloud to move them.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Sounds weird that they ar freaking if you just move them.... I know poles are good for balancing and for strengthing the top line.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

*Shrugs* The set distance between poles is different here between sporting and mounted games - I do both, so my horses have to learn to run both. I actually find it a handy excercise to make sure my horse is listening to MY cue for the bend, not the poles - As a horse running on it's own, relying on the poles, is generally a horse that will start diving in on them eventually. I have ridden a few horses who were allowed to run themselves, and they were very, very hard work to keep off poles. 

So i don't see it as an issue, and it can be a handy excercise.

I do think it is ridiculous that they won't let you move the poles though! We move our poles all the time, different distances, and then different configurations for different races that you guys don't really have.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

12 feet is just too short for any horse to weave effectively--how are they supposed to get over, change lead, etc.? Don't practice on the short course...it'll screw your horse up.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't practice short courses either.

I keep the poles the correct distance apart and work on that. The smaller courses will do nothing but confuse the horse, and since a lot of gaming horses are nutcases nowadays....Yeah. It's just a recipe for a disaster.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Sounds like most agree that it was a pointless exercise. I just feel bad for the kids who can't understand why their horse's freak out over the poles. And I feel bad for the horses who get blamed.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Funny, my horses aren't confused or nutcases, and are normally the ones winning the pole races  different things for different people - just because it wasn't successful for you, doesn't mean it doesn't work. It IS a valid training tool when done properly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Do you really set the poles as close together as 12 feet, though?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Hang on, I have to convert that on my phone lol. 

Ok! After some converting. No, we haven't set them that close. Generally when we are practicing shorter it's about 16 feet? (I think. About 5 meters anyway). 

However I would quite happily use a 12 foot course for exercises - walking/trotting through, leg yielding, changing bend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

It's one thing if you are just going to walk and trot. But I still wouldn't use the excersize. There's many of other ways to get the horse to respond without using that excersize.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> But I still wouldn't use the excersize. There's many of other ways to get the horse to respond without using that excersize.


And good for you..?

It doesn't mean it isn't a valid excercise. I rarely run any patterns full tilt at home and spend most of my time doing slow work, including leg yeilds, stopping, emphasizing bend. You may not use it or have success with it, but I do, and I was taught it by the NSW State Coach and also Australian Coach who has coached his team to victory 4 years in a row now? I think anyway.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I understand the importance of slow work, I just find that it's not as valid as other excersizes that don't even require the poles. I've done both, and I find the pole bending horses I have trained using that method have not been as solid. One example is with my current gelding Rebel. I schooled him on smaller courses because he wasn't weaving as well as I'd wanted. Well it turned out when I got to a standard course, he wasn't strong in his ability to weave through the larger. After that I only schooled him on a 21ft poles and he's never had a problem since. My personal trainer who I've been with for 16 years now doesn't teach her kids on smaller poles either.

You know, do as you wish, I'm just sharing my personal experience with the excersize. I've not liked its uses and I know I would like to hear if anyone had had bad luck with any of the methods I use, just so I know it IS an option for my horse to do that, or hat to expect if something wasn't to work. here's nothing wrong with knowing options.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

If it works for you wild_spot thats great. IMO it doesn't help me or my own horses that I work with. It may be difference in region, that way things are handled differently. For example I don't like my horse bending around the poles. I like very very straight with more lateral movement. IMO it keeps the horse more upright and frees his front end. Then at higher speeds they are less likely to throw their butt around while weaving.

I like the idea of the horse knowing the pattern to some extent as well. When they are weaving that fast I don't mind them being a little automatic. I work on keeping the horse keen on my leg cues through other exercises. 

I know that for me, when I did Hurdles in track. I took exactly three strides between each hurdle. I had to work hard to get that striding through practice to grow comfortable. But it was the fastest way, other wise I would have to take 5 strides and chop. (I am left footed lol, so I need to take off with my left foot in front)


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

^^ Wonderful example. I don't like automatic horses much either, unless I'm throwing a kid on their back who isn't advanced enough to handle the horse themselves. In which case, I have an ol' reliable grandpony for that one. However, I would rather then be automatic then taking wrong strides because they think the course is smaller than it actually is.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> For example I don't like my horse bending around the poles. I like very very straight with more lateral movement.


That is exactly what I am after. My best pole horse alsmot ran a straight line with his legs and just leaned to miss the poles with his body. He was almost unbeaten when in his prime and got fastest time of the day (Over all age groups) 5 years in a row. Horse who actually try and weave lose far too much time as they are covering more ground, plus they lose rythym as it gets too choppy when they have to abruptly change direction. 

Which is why I LOVE to leg yeild through the pattern, no matter the size. Keeping the body straight but yelding between poles. I like to start this on a smaller pattern as it makes more sense - On a bigger pattern there is so much space between poles that they don't really twig that they are yelding over to get around the pole - They seem to 'get it' much quicker if it is more obvious to them that they need to yeild over to get around the pole, right there.

Thankyou for your courteous explanation of why you wouldn't use the excercise, Horsesdontlie. That's the kind of discussion I like.

This dig:



> However, I would rather then be automatic then taking wrong strides because they think the course is smaller than it actually is.


Is what really gets me peeved.

My horses do NOT take wrong strides. They wait for my cues so they take CORRECT strides more so than most other horses. When it is done CORRECTLY this doesn't happen.

The same as when teaching a horse to be automatic, when done INCORRECTLY, often ends up with a horse diving onto poles.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm not saying that your horses DO take wrong strides. I've done nothing but state why I don't use the excersize because I prefer to get my horses responding using differant excersizes and then the smaller poles. I'm well aware of the benefits of that excersize, HOWEVER a lot of the horses I have trained for poles are extremely sensitive and simply do not respond well to it. That's all there is too it.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Yup lots of leg yeilding. ^-^ But the fact remained that on this short course unless I wanted to stop. Sidepass with out foreword momentum the go forward I would loose my straight body. Truthfully my own horse is all over the place. I pretty much ruined him when I started, no practicing and slowly working up to it, and he is so bendy around each of the poles that it looked like a horrible run. 5 years later I learned so much more and tried to re-teach him the pattern, its been hard trying to break his habits of being heavy on the fore and swinging his butt around every weave. Lots of lateral work at all speeds has helped. It makes sense the way your saying, and I respect that as a different training perspective. Myself I like the bigger distance while working on lateral work because I like the forward momentum. 

I try to keep my mind open for conversations and understand that people have different experiences that I haven't had. I believe sorrelhorse was merely saying that horse patterned on a shorter course tend to do their lead changes early if they become automatic on it, which would throw them directly into the next pole. Which is what I would imagine it would do as well, as we can not always stop these horses from creating their habits, as it is in their nature. 

To some extent I want my horse to not have to wait for my cues. Because in actuality at full speed I don't think I could give my horse all the cues he would need to properly carry himself in a course. So that where the slow work teaching him to carry himself in his job unless I tell him other wise. That way I can get him off a pole with my leg but not have to TELL him exactly where to be every step of the way. My horse I have to tell him where to be every step of the way, and it slows us down. Then he gets so frustrated that I am nagging at him constantly. Its my fault that he is like this (when I was young I pretty much ruined him....lots of running with no training) the retraining has been a pain. The more I have patterned him, the less I can nag and the more comfortable he gets. He rarely hits any poles in shows now, before he would knock them down in his frustration. 0.o


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## jethroish (Sep 19, 2009)

12 feet? is that even 1 full loping stride?


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

jethroish said:


> 12 feet? is that even 1 full loping stride?


I believe an average stride is considered 16-18 feet. Depending on your horse, but 12 feet would be for a pony. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I think the average stride is 11.4ft (3.5m according to this converter)

So. A little over one stride between the poles.

Like I said, I can see the benefits of the excersize even though I wouldn't do it. And I certainly hope anyone who was practicing on a short course wouldn't be barreling through like they were at a regular HS Rodeo.


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## reiningfan (Jan 7, 2008)

I live right next to a provincial border and competed in both. Saskatchewan was behind the times in moving to a 21' pattern and was using an 18' pattern till quite recently. 
I found it really hard on both myself and my horse to be running the shorter pattern when we had always schooled on the 21' pattern. That was a full 6' longer than the 12' pattern that trainer was using. 
If I am wanting to work on lateral work, I use cones rather than poles in order to not confuse my horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

I've never heard of a 12' pattern, i though the rule book stated 21'.... is it possible that the 12' person was not practicing a pole bending race maybe other maneuvers, also if they provide that equipment for their customers to use then why complain when the customers use it... too lazy to move them back or what.

our events we set up a length of rope with a knot every 21' it helps you and who's helping you set them up exactly and helps keep them straight.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

ledge said:


> I've never heard of a 12' pattern, i though the rule book stated 21'.... is it possible that the 12' person was not practicing a pole bending race maybe other maneuvers, also if they provide that equipment for their customers to use then why complain when the customers use it... too lazy to move them back or what.
> 
> our events we set up a length of rope with a knot every 21' it helps you and who's helping you set them up exactly and helps keep them straight.


It is 21 feet for all organizations I have run with. I think they were using it for 'training' reasons. They were running it like a poles pattern. Six poles, run up, weave down, weave up and run down. I was also told that the poles were barn owned, not by the trainer.


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