# Western Dressage



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

I suspect that poster was @Golden Horse , who rides Western Dressage with her mare Fergie.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

phantomhorse13 said:


> I suspect that poster was @*Golden Horse* , who rides Western Dressage with her mare Fergie.


 Could have been...certainly I ride Western Dressage, in a curb, with a form of contact.....I do not have time to spend giving a good reply just now, but I have seen this and will be back later on.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i like to equate western dressage to vaqueros. that in my mind would be the direction WD should almost go at higher levels. maybe not the exact patterns but the horsemanship and the training. these horses will give any QH s good run in maneuverability too. this is contact in a leverage bit. they are not yanking just helping the horse keep his head where he needs it in order to do what is needed. very similar headset to a english dressage horse. but these are also andalusians and are practically born collected but still.

this is the type of bits the horses are in to give you an idea.









this vid is shorter





longer


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Kaifyre said:


> So I've heard a lot about the western dressage discipline in recent months and I was wondering if any of you folks who actually do it could chime in. Specifically, on riding with constant contact with a leverage bit.
> 
> I was always taught, as I believe many western riders here were, that constant contact with a leverage type bit was not desirable. I know that many English ridden horses are ridden in double bridles, pelhams, kimberwickes, etc on contact, and that saddle seat type horses are ridden with shanked bits on contact, as well as most gaited horses. In the western riding world however, constant contact made with a shanked bit is a no-no. Why then is it a staple of western dressage? I remember reading a post here from someone who rides western dressage, can't remember who it was, and they mentioned something along the lines of "I don't want to get into why everyone thinks it's wrong [shanked bit contact] but it's common in my discipline."
> 
> ...


Right, lets see...

I do not speak on behalf of Western Dressage, I speak on behalf of me and my journey and understanding.....

First thing....the comment about it being "A staple in Western Dressage" not so sure it is, you can choose to ride in bitless, snaffle or curb, so a curb is not a staple, in contact or not.

Now about contact.....I guess if you look at my Avatar pic, you will be horrified, that IS a curb, and the shanks are swept way back, so yes there is contact, but the degree of contact....well there is the story.

I have struggled with heavy hands since I started Western Dressage, had some ugly tests, and lots of comments about 'gaping horse' and 'inconsistent contact, no acceptance of contact' and variations on that theme, often in my snaffle, but also I am embarrassed to say, in the curb that we tried Gibbs in. It took until a light dawned this spring to GET IT, I mean really get it, outside rein has contact, inside rein has a conversation....BUT it is not a pull, not heavy, it is a light contact. Having got some improvements (here I have to say, I know it isn't all about tests, etc, but judges feed back, and marks are how we are measured) in scores and feeling so much better about things, we were still struggling with Fergie gaping and pulling through the bit.

We tried her bitless, and that stopped the gaping, but she was then throwing her head around and gawking at every distraction she could see. One day coach said "Have we tried a curb on her...No I said, and I'm not sure about it....off goes coach and comes back with a bit that I hated on sight....jointed mouth, long cheeks....we put it on, and I'm riding her on the rein ends, scared to take any contact on this thing, because 'everyone knows that curbs aren't meant to be rode in contact' It took some time but I got talked into forgetting it was a curb, and just riding the mare, and WOW, what a difference, she was light, responsive and quiet in her mouth. I shared this on another board, and got reamed a new one, because obviously she was terrified of this bit, and was just putting up with it...it all turned kind of ugly. I repeated it to coach, who tore me off a strip, asking me if I didn't trust her, and since then I have ridden in front of 4 different judges, and spoken at length to one of them...no longer do we have resistant to the bit, or issues over contact, now they are looking for rhythm and consistency. The judge who know Fergie and I best, agrees that she looks happy and contented in the curb, no fear or resistance.

SO, all that is a long winded way of saying, that whatever the convention, my small sample of one, says my horse is a lot happier with a curb in light contact, than she ever was with a snaffle.

As to working on a loose rein, well that is kind of what I thought the WD would be when we started, but it isn't, and I have come to terms with that. It really does not matter to me what anyone else thinks it should be, I am happy with the skills I am gaining through riding WD, I like the way my mare is developing, it IS more like English dressage with western tack, and that suits me down to the ground. 

We must be doing something right, keep getting attacked by the traditional side, because it isn't really dressage, and by the western side because it isn't really western, and that is OK. What it is, is great fun, something that us old girls can do and enjoy...

Not sure if that answers anything or not...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Slack reins create 1-2 lbs of pressure in the mouth. Light contact, when measured on a snaffle bit, equates to 3-6 lbs of pressure. That is about the best a good rider can do - light = 3-6 lbs. With a leverage bit and constant contact, using 'light contact', the 3-6 lbs is multiplied by around 3. So somewhere in the 9-18 lbs of pressure. Just for maintaining contact.

A half-halt performed by an experienced traditional dressage rider measured on a snaffle ran 8 lbs of pressure. Multiplied by 3, you have 24 lbs of pressure - for a half-halt. The rider will not feel it, but the horse must.

Those numbers are why standard western riding rejects constant contact with a western curb bit. Curb bits used with signal are a very light form of riding. When the signal phase is skipped...seems the laws of physics kick in.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

yes for normal western riding where the horses head is down. in a dressage type test look to the vaqueros. the horses are not playing with the bit, they are quick and responsive and ridden it bits most of us would never use. i can take up contact with a low port curb with odie and he will collect up really nice. and VERY light. i can hold contact with 2 fingers. in the snaffle bit it is a bit more pressure. and he HATES the snaffle. he wont stop gaping at it (contact or no contact) and playing with it. i dont compete in western dressage but i am dabbling in it (if odie can stop trying to cripple himself). Rocket will also go well in contact with a curb. he is so so in a snaffle because he dose not care for it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

bsms said:


> Slack reins create 1-2 lbs of pressure in the mouth. Light contact, when measured on a snaffle bit, equates to 3-6 lbs of pressure. That is about the best a good rider can do - light = 3-6 lbs. With a leverage bit and constant contact, using 'light contact', the 3-6 lbs is multiplied by around 3. So somewhere in the 9-18 lbs of pressure. Just for maintaining contact.
> 
> A half-halt performed by an experienced traditional dressage rider measured on a snaffle ran 8 lbs of pressure. Multiplied by 3, you have 24 lbs of pressure - for a half-halt. The rider will not feel it, but the horse must.
> 
> Those numbers are why standard western riding rejects constant contact with a western curb bit. Curb bits used with signal are a very light form of riding. When the signal phase is skipped...seems the laws of physics kick in.



And you point is? How many western dressage tests have you ridden.....how much schooling have you done.....could you tell by feel what amount of pressure you have or need???

Th eOP was asking for real life experience of riding with a curb in WD, not a C&P of someones research, which by the way if you are going to quite you really should link to so people could read the whole thing, as I presume this isn't your own research?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I certainly wouldn't expect to have that much pressure (re. BSMS post) on a dressage horse or a showjumper to have it in contact unless it was resisting the contact by trying to pull against it
A half halt isn't about slowing the horse down its about signaling, gathering and balancing and on occasions could be done on just one rein so you really wouldn't want to be using a lot of pressure or it would effect the right or left flexion of the head/poll
Not sure where those figures come from.
The training foundation in a western dressage horse seems much the same as it is in 'euro' dressage so by the time the horse is ridden in collection its already gone through the stages of being balanced and having correct self carriage so a shanked bit on a short rein shouldn't = the horse being in a headset achieved by using a lot of force and pressure


The Cowboy Dressage organisation has links to the Vaquero riding enthusiasts


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> Slack reins create 1-2 lbs of pressure in the mouth. Light contact, when measured on a snaffle bit, equates to 3-6 lbs of pressure. That is about the best a good rider can do - light = 3-6 lbs. With a leverage bit and constant contact, using 'light contact', the 3-6 lbs is multiplied by around 3. So somewhere in the 9-18 lbs of pressure. Just for maintaining contact.
> 
> A half-halt performed by an experienced traditional dressage rider measured on a snaffle ran 8 lbs of pressure. Multiplied by 3, you have 24 lbs of pressure - for a half-halt. The rider will not feel it, but the horse must.
> 
> Those numbers are why standard western riding rejects constant contact with a western curb bit. Curb bits used with signal are a very light form of riding. When the signal phase is skipped...seems the laws of physics kick in.


I agree that curb bits are not designed to be used for riding in contact. However, I have some questions and comments about your post. 

Can you please share where you got these numbers? How was the pressure measured? How many different horses and riders were measured? 

The amount of leverage obtained with a leverage bit is a factor of the difference in length between the upper and lower portions of the shank, so the multiplication factor would depend on the shank lengths of the curb bit in question. Curvature of shank might also affect the multiplication factor depending on how the length was measured.

In addition, there are many different types of half-halts, so the amount of pressure applied could vary greatly.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

jaydee said:


> The training foundation in a western dressage horse seems much the same as it is in 'euro' dressage so by the time the horse is ridden in collection its already gone through the stages of being balanced and having correct self carriage so a shanked bit on a short rein shouldn't = the horse being in a headset achieved by using a lot of force and pressure
> 
> 
> The Cowboy Dressage organisation has links to the Vaquero riding enthusiasts


There are no level restrictions in WD regarding the curb, though. You can have a w/t horse in a 6" shank on contact if you wish. So, no there isn't any promises that the horse is already educated or in self carriage before the curb is introduced.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Have you seen the upper-level dressage riders??? At the World Cup in Omaha last year, a friend and I sat and watched the warmups every day. You were literally within 3 feet of the ring. Most of the dressage riders rode almost exclusively on the curb in warmup, with the horse in rollkur and the reins hauled back and a crank noseband as tight as it would go. Those in the crowd included quite a few western, saddleseat, and even trail riders and everyone was uncomfortable with it except the dressage riders, who said 'that's just the way it is.' 

It chaps my butt when people freak out over a western horse with light contact on the curb, but are A-OK with dressage riders leaning back and hauling on the reins through a whole warmup and test, and showjumpers riding in drawreins and gag bits in warmup with the horse's head cranked in to his chest. A lot of people also can't tell the difference between a horse in self-carriage with light contact, and a horse whose frame is held together by the bit. 

Horse and Rider magazine had a recent issue with Western Dressage highlighted (Sept. 2017, pg 28-29) with the main photo for the article being a lovely buckskin horse in a long-shanked curb and contact. At first glance, yikes! But look closer-- the horse is carrying himself in a nice frame. His jaw isn't braced, tense, or tied shut with a crank noseband -- in fact, there's no noseband at all, and he's not gaping. His expression is alert and relaxed and his head is just slightly ahead of the vertical. He's moving in an engaged manner without tenseness. Follow the reins back to the rider's hands, and she doesn't even have her fingers closed on the reins. She's not pulling. Look closer at the bit-- western curbs are generally ridden on a looser curb chain/strap than English. The bit is rotated in the horse's mouth, but the curb is just taking up contact. This is a happy horse who isn't uncomfortable. Change the tack, and you have a high-scoring movement in 'regular' dressage. 

Yes, the Western purists eschew such contact, but if the horse isn't unhappy, then I don't see the issue. I have ridden quite a few horses who are much happier to go on light contact in a curb than they are in a snaffle. English riders tend to get hung up on the 'cruelty' of a curb bit. Western riders tend to use what the horse goes best in, and curbs aren't nearly as vilified, and you see a lot of them with perfectly happy horses in what the English enthusiasts would term barbaric bits. Also bear in mind that quite a few riders with a lot of drape in the reins make 'contact' by the sheer weight of the rein alone. If I ride with a heavy harness leather rein, I can ride with much more drape in the rein and still maintain contact than if I ride with a lightweight leather rein. If I ride with romal reins and a half-breed spade, I can take up contact without taking the slack out of the rein at all and the horse responds; by the same token, you don't want a ton of slack in heavy reins or the horse is being signaled constantly if the reins move as he moves. It's a balancing act. The weight and balance of the rein and bit come into play much more than in English tack when establishing contact, and will be different with the type of curb; the length, balance, mouthpiece, how swept back the shanks are, how the bit sits in the mouth, how tight you have the curb strap, how it's positioned, is it chain or leather, what type of reins you have on it, if it's fixed shank or loose shank, and what the horse is doing. All of these variables matter.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

> Rein Check - On contact, rein tension, and the myth of lightness
> 
> By Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PhD, DACVSMR, MRCVS
> 
> ...


http://cvm.msu.edu/research/researc...usdf-connection/copy_of_ReinCheckJune2011.pdf












> A pilot study was performed using a strain gauge transducer intercalated between the bit and the left rein to measure rein tension dynamically during riding. The strain patterns consisted of a series of spikes with frequencies corresponding to two per stride in walk and trot and one per stride in canter. The highest tension recorded in each gait was 43 N at walk, 51 N at trot and 104 N in canter. Based on the results of this study, it is recommended that the methodology should be adapted so that both reins are instrumented simultaneously, data are transmitted telemetrically to eliminate the need for a tether connecting the horse to the computer, and kinematic data are synchronized with the rein tension recordings.
> 
> https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...-pilot-study/2B1EF77B40DC91D45AF5189B673CD301


One Newton on the surface of the Earth is equal to 101.972 grams, 0.224809 lb, or 3.59694 oz. 43 N at a walk would be over 9 lbs. 51 would be 11.5 lbs, and the canter maxed at 23 lbs.

There was a study I thought I downloaded but can't find, by a maker of English bits. They measured bit pressures and concluded 2.5 lbs was in the noise and (IIRC) 5 lbs was a good average value of constant contact.


> Rein Pressure Philippe Karl Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage
> 
> In an issue dated may 2004, the Cavallo magazine published the results of an instructive experiment. Electronic sensors placed on the reins recorded the tension exerted on the horse's mouth during a transition from canter to halt...
> 
> ...


I realize people BELIEVE they are using far less pressure. If anyone can find a study showing measurements lower than these, please post them.. I'd love to see them. But I think Hilary Clayton is correct, that 5 lbs of pressure isn't much in a dynamic situation. If the reins themselves, when slack, create 1-2 lbs of pressure, then a rider who is applying 3-6 lbs and no more is actually doing very well on a moving horse.

When that pressure, though, is multiplied by the mechanical advantage of a curb bit...5 lbs becomes 15 lbs. That assumes a 3:1 mechanical advantage, which is pretty common. My own curb bit has just over a 2:1 advantage, and some generate a 4-5 fold advantage.



Golden Horse said:


> ...How many western dressage tests have you ridden.....how much schooling have you done.....could you tell by feel what amount of pressure you have or need???
> 
> Th eOP was asking for real life experience of riding with a curb in WD...


Yes. But then, facts are stubborn things. Without measurements, you don't know how much pressure you have applied to the reins. Clayton wasn't thrilled by her research. She obviously was uncomfortable with the idea that typical light contact runs 5 lbs. But she didn't run away from it either.

I am 100% positive a horse can get used to a baseline pressure of 15+ lbs in its mouth. I am not at all positive that we humans should take advantage of it.

At a canter, Bandit sometimes gives me a smoother, better canter with slight (ok, probably 5 lbs of slight) continuous pressure on the curb bit, so 10+ lbs in his mouth. Traditional western riding would consider that a hole in his training, since he ought to be able to rate himself. Maybe it is his background in racing, but it is something to improve. Not accept.

And I made my comment because a lot of people do NOT know how much pressure they put in the horse's mouth. It isn't a huge deal. My horse has been known to put pressure in his mouth because he wanted to turn his head sideways, or because he wanted to keep eating grass when I wanted him to stop. But there is a genuine reason why traditional western riding rejects continuous contact with long shank western curb bits.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ApuetsoT said:


> There are no level restrictions in WD regarding the curb, though. You can have a w/t horse in a 6" shank on contact if you wish. So, no there isn't any promises that the horse is already educated or in self carriage before the curb is introduced.


No promises, of course, same as any other discipline I guess, there is always someone who wants to take short cuts..heck how often do you see trail riders who want a curb because "better brakes" With Fergie if I get brave enough to take her out on the trail it will be in a snaffle, because I don't want to chance using her curb as a brake. I would hope that the under prepared would get disillusioned by poor scores, and either fix the holes or go back to basics but I realize that is naive thought.



SilverMaple said:


> Horse and Rider magazine had a recent issue with Western Dressage highlighted (Sept. 2017, pg 28-29) with the main photo for the article being a lovely buckskin horse in a long-shanked curb and contact. At first glance, yikes! But look closer-- the horse is carrying himself in a nice frame. His jaw isn't braced, tense, or tied shut with a crank noseband -- in fact, there's no noseband at all, and he's not gaping. His expression is alert and relaxed and his head is just slightly ahead of the vertical. He's moving in an engaged manner without tenseness. Follow the reins back to the rider's hands, and she doesn't even have her fingers closed on the reins. She's not pulling. Look closer at the bit-- western curbs are generally ridden on a looser curb chain/strap than English. The bit is rotated in the horse's mouth, but the curb is just taking up contact. This is a happy horse who isn't uncomfortable. Change the tack, and you have a high-scoring movement in 'regular' dressage.
> 
> .


At the risk of getting the wrong end of peoples opinions....here is Fergie with her dreaded, long shank, single joint curb.....her bit of choice, not mine..

Here, I think not a lot of contact

View attachment 940130










Here more contact, maybe too much, but look at her


















OK, now last year, far to many pics like these, with her in a snaffle


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> No promises, of course, same as any other discipline I guess, there is always someone who wants to take short cuts..heck how often do you see trail riders who want a curb because "better brakes" With Fergie if I get brave enough to take her out on the trail it will be in a snaffle, because I don't want to chance using her curb as a brake. I would hope that the under prepared would get disillusioned by poor scores, and either fix the holes or go back to basics but I realize that is naive thought.


The comparison was between WD and euro dressage with the statement that the horse would at least be in self carriage. Trail riding is neither here nor there.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ApuetsoT said:


> The comparison was between WD and euro dressage with the statement that the horse would at least be in self carriage. Trail riding is neither here nor there.


*SIGH* but the way people view curbs was the important thing, and what is Euro Dressage, new one on me...


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I've found that IN GENERAL:
- English riders view curbs by the shank length alone. A longer shank means the horse either isn't under control or the rider is a barbarian.

- Western riders are used to a lot more choices when it comes to curb bits, many of which act in different ways. They tend to be just fine with a curb, even on some contact, but look askance at the english riders who have the horse's mouth tied shut with a crank or flash or dropped noseband so they can pull hard enough on a snaffle to get the horse listening.

It reminds me of a ride with an acquaintance and her boyfriend. Said boyfriend spent half the ride berating my 'severe, cruel curb bit' which I never had to touch, while he rode his big TB/WB in a ring snaffle with drawreins, a tight noseband, and talked about how 'all horses should be as light as his and go in a snaffle.' His arms were shaking he was pulling so hard to keep his horse under control. 

A friend has been a 'snaffle only' rider forever, but her mare has been unhappy with her bit for years, no matter which one she tries. After watching her ride with her mare gaping, tossing her head, and generally being unhappy for the 448958th time, I asked her if we could try a low-port, loose-cheeked curb. Voila. Within 5 minutes the mare was moving softly on contact, carrying herself properly, and no tossing, gaping, evasion, or resistance. Her ears were up and happy. That same mouthpiece on a snaffle was a no-go, but years and years of trying to keep the mare in a 'mild' bit were solved in 5 minutes by switching to a curb. There are a lot of horses out there who prefer them for one reason or another, and as long as the horse isn't unhappy in his bit and the rider is using only the amount of pressure necessary, what is the big deal? She was one of those riders who viewed Western Dressage as a travesty due to the curb bits, until she actually tried it on her own horse.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> A friend has been a 'snaffle only' rider forever, but her mare has been unhappy with her bit for years, no matter which one she tries. After watching her ride with her mare gaping, tossing her head, and generally being unhappy for the 448958th time, I asked her if we could try a low-port, loose-cheeked curb. Voila. Within 5 minutes the mare was moving softly on contact, carrying herself properly, and no tossing, gaping, evasion, or resistance. Her ears were up and happy. That same mouthpiece on a snaffle was a no-go, but years and years of trying to keep the mare in a 'mild' bit were solved in 5 minutes by switching to a curb. There are a lot of horses out there who prefer them for one reason or another, and as long as the horse isn't unhappy in his bit and the rider is using only the amount of pressure necessary, what is the big deal? She was one of those riders who viewed Western Dressage as a travesty due to the curb bits, until she actually tried it on her own horse.


The one truth in this world, my horses very often do not like the bits I think they should like....none has liked my mylers, I hate loose ring snaffles, Gibbs loved his....actually Ace agreed with me, she hated her loose ring French Link, but loved her eggbut French Link.

Oh and the second truth, I have just bought a bit that I have loved for a long time, and Fergie is going to HATE it...going to be an expensive decoration maybe.....although I live in hope...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I certainly wouldn't expect to have that much pressure (re. BSMS post) on a dressage horse or a showjumper to have it in contact unless it was resisting the contact by trying to pull against it
> A half halt isn't about slowing the horse down its about signaling, gathering and balancing and on occasions could be done on just one rein so you really wouldn't want to be using a lot of pressure or it would effect the right or left flexion of the head/poll
> Not sure where those figures come from.
> The training foundation in a western dressage horse seems much the same as it is in 'euro' dressage so by the time the horse is ridden in collection its already gone through the stages of being balanced and having correct self carriage so a shanked bit on a short rein shouldn't = the horse being in a headset achieved by using a lot of force and pressure
> ...


Cowboy Dressage & Western Dressage are not the same organization. Eitan Hallachmy started Cowboy Dressage and isn't involved with WDAA. Cowboy Dressage & Doma Vaquero have lots in common. WDAA is more like regular dressage in western clothing. That is NOT a negative comment, BTW, it's just what I have experienced.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Cowboy Dressage & Western Dressage are not the same organization. Eitan Hallachmy started Cowboy Dressage and isn't involved with WDAA. Cowboy Dressage & Doma Vaquero have lots in common. WDAA is more like regular dressage in western clothing. That is NOT a negative comment, BTW, it's just what I have experienced.


No that's a factual comment!:cowboy:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> *SIGH* but the way people view curbs was the important thing, and what is Euro Dressage, new one on me...



The use of the term euro-dressage was just my way of differentiating between Western Dressage and the dressage that originated in Europe - no its not a new one. Sometimes its written as European dressage and sometimes eurodressage



SilverMaple said:


> Have you seen the upper-level dressage riders??? At the World Cup in Omaha last year, a friend and I sat and watched the warmups every day. You were literally within 3 feet of the ring. Most of the dressage riders rode almost exclusively on the curb in warmup, with the horse in rollkur and the reins hauled back and a crank noseband as tight as it would go. whose frame is held together by the bit.
> QUOTE]
> Firstly rolkurr has been banned in dressage since 2010 so if anyone was using it in the warm up rings they should have been reported and removed from the competition.
> Secondly riding on the curb rein in European dressage and riding on a curb rein in WD are no different and the positives and negatives totally dependent on the rider and the fitting
> ...


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Yeah, the horse is the final denominator when it comes to bits. I have found, however, that the vast majority of horses, no matter their background, relax and go well in one of these two bits-- I nearly always pick one of them for any horse except a colt. Both of these bits are 25+ years old.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

> Firstly rolkurr has been banned in dressage since 2010 so if anyone was using it in the warm up rings they should have been reported and removed from the competition.
> Secondly riding on the curb rein in European dressage and riding on a curb rein in WD are no different and the positives and negatives totally dependent on the rider and the fitting
> I don't understand why you feel the need to launch an assault on one style of riding to support another?
> Maybe try looking at some of the riders who are winning at top level and train and ride their horses beautifully


Well, I know it's banned, but that means nothing when ALL BUT ONE RIDER used it in the warmup. There were officials all over and not one of them did a thing. One rider, a young woman from Ireland on a beautiful black horse, warmed her horse up on the snaffle and took the time to get the horse engaged and thinking and supple before asking for collection and even touching the curb. Her warmup was a pleasure to watch with no tenseness at all. The rest of them rode almost exclusively on the curb with a ton of pressure. I have photos if you would like to see them. Edward Gal's horse had his chin on his chest the whole time. Isabelle Werth's horse spent at least half the warmup cranked in behind the vertical. I saw three horses who looked happy in their work --- the Irish horse, Verdades, and NipTuck. 

I am not launching an assault, I'm saying that the dressage riders who should be all about harmony and using as few aids as possible are the most heavy-handed riders I've ever seen when it comes to their horses. I wish that were not the case. Dressage has taken a bad direction in recent years, and I want no part of it. There is a huge difference between what has come to be known as 'Euro Dressage' vs. 'Classical Dressage'. Alois Podhajsky has to be rolling in his grave over what dressage has become.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I don't understand why so many people who are not part of a discipline always are the most vocal about what they perceive as negatives. They never have anything nice to say about anything. I, personally, ride how I ride, with what I wish to ride (equipment wise) and when I want to use it, when I want to ride, where I want to ride on the horse I choose to ride. I really don't care what anyone thinks. I have horses that are on curb bits, one on a spade and several on snaffles, but each one is on a different snaffle, and I'm not going to change anything to suit someone else. If the HORSE indicates it's too much, too little, uncomfortable, or some way doesn't care for what I'm using, I'll change things up. But for a human? Especially one I'm not paying for their opinion? Not so much.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

@Golden Thank you for your insight into the western dressage world. I find it interesting that there are no bitting restrictions for each level ... I would have expected the lower levels to be more snaffle oriented, and the curb bits to come into play in the upper echelons, like how the lower levels of English dressage require snaffle bits while the higher levels require double bridles. To me, allowing curb bits in the lower levels seems like the judges are allowing a rider to cop out of proper training. I know this is not always the case, but in my experience at least I see a lot of "oh he won't collect with a snaffle but he will in a curb" or "oh he stops great in this curb but not in a snaffle" etc. To me, a well trained horse will collect, stop, etc in any bit. I know you gave examples of your horse and Fergie does seem happier in a curb, but there are a lot of unscrupulous hacks out there who would not give a darn about their horse's comfort and only use a curb because it will fix xyz training issue, without attempting to fix said issue through training first. 

Having never seen a dressage show I cannot attest to riders warming up with shoddy practices. It both does and does not surprise me - people will do anything to win, but I would have thought that the officials would have seen these actions and punished the riders by removing them from the competition. I really does surprise me that the officials either did not see or chose not to see. English riders in general pride themselves on their supple, willing horses that will readily accept contact. Rollkur screams anything but ... or is rullkur the dressage version of TWH soring? "It's always been done this way, nothing to see here, move along"?

Is there something like a Grand Prix for western dressage? It would be really cool to watch a western dressage horse go through his career starting in a snaffle, moving to the curb with contact, and competing at the highest level in a curb with no contact, but staying in frame and performing the various maneuvers - regular dressage things but also western moves like spins, sliding stops, etc. That would be killer. Forgive me for asking, but what's the point of western dressage? If the maneuvers are the same, and the contact is the same as regular dressage, why not just ride a horse in English tack and call it dressage? What is it about western dressage, aside from the tack, that MAKES it western dressage? 

I ask all of these questions, not to bash on a different style of riding. but to learn about it. I know very little about dressage, and I know next to nothing about western dressage. Hopefully this discussion will rectify this lack of knowledge. I have thought about training and showing Dreams in western dressage, but I want to learn more about it before we do anything crazy. : )

-- Kai


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Kaifyre said:


> Is there something like a Grand Prix for western dressage?
> 
> Forgive me for asking, but what's the point of western dressage?
> 
> ...


Before I answer your questions above, I'll tell you the answer I was given when I asked about curbs in lower level dressage, especially being ridden 2 handed. A lot of the western trained horses in WD have already been trained to the curb by the time their owners come to WD and the thought/feeling was that they would absolutely run a mile the other way if they were told they had to go back to a 'lesser' bit, which is how the snaffle is viewed by most western riders. The young horses get broke in the snaffle and then graduate to the curb, and once there the western folks don't want to look back. The snaffle is kind of thought of as a 'baby bit'. As for riding the curb 2 handed, that's done in European dressage and those are the folks you'll see doing it in WD. Once you go in and start your test, if you start one handed you have to ride one handed through out. If you have a problem and go to 2, you're DQ'd. 

#1 - Not yet. Level 3 is as high as they go now. There are some Freestyle tests available too. 

#2 - To get more people involved in dressage training. And it's good for the horses & humans too. It's like ballet for horses, doesn't matter the other disciplines you're doing, dressage will make both of you better at all of it. And it's fun.

#3 - Because we like our western tack. I rode huntseat for years and years. Then I started riding western and had a custom saddle made, bridle and reins to match and a silver show bit. After investing over $25K in my showing gear I am not the least bit interested in going back to English tack. If that was a requirement, I'd go find something else to do with my horse. 

#4 - I'm sure someone will have a romantic story to tell about it, but as far as I have seen and experienced, nothing. It's the same horse in a different suit.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Kaifyre said:


> Is there something like a Grand Prix for western dressage? It would be really cool to watch a western dressage horse go through his career starting in a snaffle, moving to the curb with contact, and competing at the highest level in a curb with no contact, but staying in frame and performing the various maneuvers - regular dressage things but also western moves like spins, sliding stops, etc.


This is about as close as you'll get--- a working cow horse trained 'straight up in the bridle'. At the beginning of the video, the horse is in a snaffle, and he's in the spade bit by the end. I can guarantee you this horse could do a dressage test in a snaffle or a curb with, perhaps, a slightly faster turnaround than one typically sees in dressage. 




Also, do some YouTube searches for 'working equitation'. There are some really nice horses there doing dressage moves outside of a dressage test who are a joy to watch.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

This one's kinda cool, too:


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Before stating what a horse could do in a particular test, you should understand what is required in that particular test. For example what you call a “turnaround” is generally called a spin in Western riding and a turn on the haunches in dressage. 

In a spin, the inside hind foot is basically understood to stay approximately in place but is allowed to move somewhat because of joint torque. In classical dressage, the rhythm of footfalls is supposed to remain the same as when riding forward. For example, in the walk or trot, the inside rear foot should rise and fall as usual – ideally within the area of a dinner plate – as the horse is rotating its body around this foot.

The horse in the video you link to is certainly athletic and could possibly be trained to do the collected and extended trot where the rhythm of the footfalls remains the same while the length of the stride varies. It might also be trained to do the passage – a trot with greater vertical movement and less horizontal movement wherein the horse appears to almost be floating in air – or the piaffe where the horse is generally understood to be trotting in place. But it is doubtful the horse in the video could do so without extensive additional training.

And then, there are the various lateral movements to be considered.

That said, I saw a Cowboy dressage demonstration where horses were praised for executing movements which would not even be considered acceptable in lower level traditional dressage competition. 

Taking this a step further, the requirements of dressage tests of recent years are far removed from what might have been required in dressage tests 100 years ago – such as performing the same movements both with and without rein contact or even jumping fences. Traditional dressage training also included airs above the ground which are seldom seen today.

Tests of any kind necessarily judge a horse’s ability to perform very specific movements on any particular day. They do not, however, display what other abilities that horse may or may not possess. 

The conformation of a horse which allows it to do one movement particularly well may inhibit this horse’s ability to do another movement as well as a horse that could not do the first movement as well this horse could.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I am aware of the differences between a spin and a turnaround, thanks. 

And most western horses with decent training can extend and collect as a matter of course. It's not as spectacular as the big warmbloods-- the horses are built differently-- but they can certainly do it. You don't see trotwork used in western riding in the show ring much aside from rail classes, but it's certainly used for training. Lateral work is also part of it-- shoulder in, haunches in, sidepass. A good, broke western horse trained for reining, working cow horse, or even upper-level rail work can certainly do a decent dressage test up to 3rd or 4th level.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I would think that the point of western dressage is to improve your connection with your horse. Right?

I'm one who is always interested to observe how competitive sports of many sorts follow a predictable pattern where it starts out loose and general-purpose and over time becomes more and more extreme and regimented, and the entry fee to competition becomes steeper and steeper as the pros start dominating the winners circle with their specially bred animals. There is now a purpose-bred dressage competition type of horse, and if you don't have one of those extraordinarily expensive animals, you will never be competitive. Over on the other end, western competitions have become similar, with extreme horses, high-pressure training, and megabucks at the top.

When this cycle reaches a certain level, there is a general groundswell of desire to make another playing field that more ordinary people with more ordinary horses and pocketbooks can have fun in. There seem to be a number of 'new' disciplines coming from the western side that aim to fill these niches, and western dressage is one of them.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Kaifyre said:


> To me, allowing curb bits in the lower levels seems like the judges are allowing a rider to cop out of proper training. I know this is not always the case, but in my experience at least I see a lot of "oh he won't collect with a snaffle but he will in a curb" or "oh he stops great in this curb but not in a snaffle" etc. To me, a well trained horse will collect, stop, etc in any bit. I know you gave examples of your horse and Fergie does seem happier in a curb, but there are a lot of unscrupulous hacks out there who would not give a darn about their horse's comfort and only use a curb because it will fix xyz training issue, without attempting to fix said issue through training first..


This might change as time goes on, but for now the sport is trying to be as inclusive as possible, so it allows kind of whatever you have been using, BUT you do have to take a check on the rules, because it isn't a case of everything goes. Remember that in dressage the judge is watching and marking everything, and if a horse is resisting or evading, or other wise uncomfortable in the bit it will be reflected in the scores. In my small neck of the woods the WD people are far more interested in the journey and doing it properly rather than short cuts.



Kaifyre said:


> Having never seen a dressage show I cannot attest to riders warming up with shoddy practices. It both does and does not surprise me - people will do anything to win, but I would have thought that the officials would have seen these actions and punished the riders by removing them from the competition. I really does surprise me that the officials either did not see or chose not to see. English riders in general pride themselves on their supple, willing horses that will readily accept contact. Rollkur screams anything but ... or is rullkur the dressage version of TWH soring? "It's always been done this way, nothing to see here, move along"?


There are shoddy practices everywhere, sadly..now having said that the WD people here are great, some other Western Riders started to enter the odd show to get points for year end, and I did see one of them warming up in her curb bit and a set of draw reins, that wasn't pretty. Rightly or wrongly, we are a tight group, and we do watch out for infringements, and either speak up or in that case, go inform a steward.



Kaifyre said:


> Is there something like a Grand Prix for western dressage? It would be really cool to watch a western dressage horse go through his career starting in a snaffle, moving to the curb with contact, and competing at the highest level in a curb with no contact, but staying in frame and performing the various maneuvers - regular dressage things but also western moves like spins, sliding stops, etc. That would be killer. Forgive me for asking, but what's the point of western dressage? If the maneuvers are the same, and the contact is the same as regular dressage, why not just ride a horse in English tack and call it dressage? What is it about western dressage, aside from the tack, that MAKES it western dressage?


Not yet, it has only been going for a short time really, and we are all working up through the levels, Canada re wrote their own tests, so I think we have Level 3 out, but there are only a few Level 2 riders so far, we are all finding that it takes a lot of hard work to score well enough to warrant moving out of the lower levels.

What is the point of any discipline, that would be the question I guess...for me, again personally, WD came along just when I needed it. Following a really bad accident I am far more comfortable in my Western saddle, I don't want to ride English...The judges in WD are not looking for a huge moving horse like Traditional Dressage seems to reward, they tend to judge the type of horse and what it's natural movement it, so my friend on her ex WP horse can just step it up a little and do well. There is nothing else that I fancy trying in the Western World, and going back to the start, for the walk trot adult who wanted to ride her 14 year old horse two handed in a snaffle, well there was nothing. I am laughing thinking of a lot of the men and women I know, who compete in WD wearing breeches and sitting in a little saddle.....

Outside of competition, we had a few clinics with Cliff Swanson, who kind of led the split from Cowboy Dressage, and he is very much on the fact that WD is a great thing to try with a lot of horses, as it makes them softer and more responsive. We have certainly seen some wonderful changes in the last few years, both in horses and riders, and that alone is a good thing.[/quote]



Kaifyre said:


> I ask all of these questions, not to bash on a different style of riding. but to learn about it. I know very little about dressage, and I know next to nothing about western dressage. Hopefully this discussion will rectify this lack of knowledge. I have thought about training and showing Dreams in western dressage, but I want to learn more about it before we do anything crazy. : )
> 
> -- Kai


Best way to learn, is to go try.....find an instructor, go get a taste of it...the beautiful thing about entry level in all types of dressage is that any horse can do it, and there is initially no huge investment in tack....I had a GP saddle when I started in TD, short boots and half chaps, was riding a big old Appy, and he did great.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

It is very true that there isn't a lot of room in western for adult beginners or lower level AAs, or older green horses for that matter. What other discipline is there that still allows you to show? Trail classes? If you have an older horse you still need a curb though. Walk trot rail classes? Boring. Still need a curb. 

So WD is good in that it fills that hole. 

Still don't like no limitations on curb usage.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

There are a lot of things to do with Western, you just have to go find them. A friend is just learning to ride now that her kids are into high school, and she did walk/trot/canter rail classes last summer and now she's got a nice lower-level reining horse and is having a blast doing reining, team penning, trail, horsemanship, and ranch pleasure classes, and just toodling along the trails and roads at home, too. She's not rich, she didn't pay a ton for her horse, but she's having a great time. She hauls two hours for a lesson once or twice a month in reining during the summer, and that's probably her biggest expense. She'd really love to get into cutting, but there is nobody in our area who does it, and it is expensive unless you have access to a lot of cattle on a daily basis through another means. 

There are lower levels in most of the western disciplines suitable to less-skilled riders on ordinary horses. Even in gaming and roping, you see people on their first horse just cantering, and others who are far more skilled going much faster, but everyone is usually pretty supportive at those lower levels.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> The
> 
> There are lower levels in most of the western disciplines suitable to less-skilled riders on ordinary horses. Even in gaming and roping, you see people on their first horse just cantering, and others who are far more skilled going much faster, but everyone is usually pretty supportive at those lower levels.


But if you can't, don't want to canter/lope, if you have an older horse that you don't want to one hand in a curb, then your options are more limited. 

I guess being part of a (now) mainly English barn, and preferring to travel with a group WD just works for me.....

It has been a Godsend for me, finding the right discipline at the right time, well it was just fate I think....


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Well that is interesting, I was looking in the Canadian Western Dressage rules tonight, checking on the curb chain on my new bit and read this..

Transitional Curb Bits permit the shanks to be independently moved and may be ridden 
with two (2) hands or one (1) hand. 



2) 
A rider may use one (1) hand or two (2) hands with the transitional curb bit but may not 
go from one (1) handed to two (2) handed or vice versa during an individual test

3) 
A transitional curb bit may only be used by horses five (5) years of age or over at any 
level. 
4) 
Shanks must have an independent swivel action either from the port or the cannons of 
the bit. 
5) 
Bit hobbles are not permitted on transitional curbs. 


WSD 4.05 
Fixed Shank Curbs 
1) 
A fixed shank with a solid mouthpiece is only permitted in classes of Level 2 or higher 
and must be ridden one (1) handed. 
2) 
No horse under six (6) years of age may be ridden in a fixed curb with a solid 
mouthpiece. 
3) 
Bit hobbles below the reins are permitted.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

https://www.sstack.com/western_bitscurbs_correction/robart-spring-loaded-low-port-correction/

I have one of these, low port correction bits, for when my horses are just transitioning from snaffle to curb. I have yet to have a horse that didn't like it. I only use it 2 handed at home if I need to fix something, otherwise we're 1 handed by the time we get to this.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> yes for normal western riding where the horses head is down. in a dressage type test look to the vaqueros. the horses are not playing with the bit, they are quick and responsive and ridden it bits most of us would never use. i can take up contact with a low port curb with odie and he will collect up really nice. and VERY light. i can hold contact with 2 fingers. in the snaffle bit it is a bit more pressure. and he HATES the snaffle. he wont stop gaping at it (contact or no contact) and playing with it. i dont compete in western dressage but i am dabbling in it (if odie can stop trying to cripple himself). Rocket will also go well in contact with a curb. he is so so in a snaffle because he dose not care for it.



You can't use vaquero horsemanship as comparison, due to the unique program and training used to create a bridle horse, one not ridden two handed in a curb, but one handed,using a Spade bit
That horse eventually ridden in a Spade, first spends several years in first a bosal, and also a snaffle, then in a double bridle, and four reins= with two being for a thin bosal, used under that Spade, until eventually that horse is ridden in a spade bit alone
I am not criticizing western dressage, as it is an entity onto itself, with those that show in it, knowing their own criteria, same as any other discipline, but it has zero to do with traditional Vaquero training,
If you want a discipline where Vaquero training tradition exists today, it is in working cowhorse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is info on Vaquero training tradition and modern working cowhorse.It is not simply riding a horse two handed in a curb!
Also, as Shiela Veridan explains, some of the old Vaquero training methods were not exactly kind-methods that included doubling, etc

Vaquero method horse training


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

missing the point i was getting at. a horse should not be shown at a high level in a curb without training. MOST curbs (western ones) are meant to be 1 handed. hence the comparison.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> missing the point i was getting at. a horse should not be shown at a high level in a curb without training. MOST curbs (western ones) are meant to be 1 handed. hence the comparison.



Western, a horse should not be shown in a curb, until he can do every thing first in a snaffle, and can be shown in that curb, one handed and on a loose rein
That is correct.
A Spade is not a \regular' curb, but a distinct classification of a bit, , that requires a specific training program, achieved over years, and also very educated hands on those reins, and a very educated horse
Few people should ever ride with a Spade bit, and only then on a horse trained to becoming a Spade bit horse.
That was my point
I ride my senior horses in curbs of various types, but I have never owned a Spade bit, nor consider any of my horses to be Spade bit horses


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> We must be doing something right, keep getting attacked by the traditional side, because it isn't really dressage, and by the western side because it isn't really western, and that is OK. What it is, is great fun, something that us old girls can do and enjoy...


You go, Girl!!!!!!!


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Thank you for sharing that video about the mechanics of spade bits, Smilie. It was very informative. The man in the video appears very knowledgeable and caring about how the bit effects his horses.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> But if you can't, don't want to canter/lope, if you have an older horse that you don't want to one hand in a curb, then your options are more limited.
> 
> I guess being part of a (now) mainly English barn, and preferring to travel with a group WD just works for me.....
> 
> It has been a Godsend for me, finding the right discipline at the right time, well it was just fate I think....


I'm not bashing you for WD at all! I wish it was done around here, because it's something I'd love to do. I was just saying some of the lower-level things people can also do in western riding. Do your small open shows not offer walk-trot only rail / pattern classes? I have seen the majority, at least in this area, now offer those for adult riders as well as children with the stipulation that the horse cannot be used in a canter class that day.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The spade video is Les Vogt. If you ever get a chance to go to a clinic of his, even to just watch, do it. 

I think people, including myself, brought up the Spade Bit horse in this discussion is because people said western horses lack self-carriage and cannot do dressage maneuvers. A horse trained well in the Vaquero tradition will have beautiful self-carriage and because of it, can do many of the maneuvers thought of as 'dressage'. He can collect and extend, go on very light contact, he's soft and flexible, but straight when he needs to be. Photos of a horse with this type of training can often be put side by side with an upper level dressage horse and the only difference is the tack. If you go back and look at the beginnings of the Vaquero traditions, you see that it's based in classical dressage through the Spanish who brought those ideas with them to what is now California and Mexico and blended with the new culture. They are really not so different. A true Bridle Horse can take from 4 - 8 years to train 'straight up in the bridle', it's not something to be rushed, neither is upper level dressage. A good trainer in either lets the horse show the pace of the training, not a timeline or show schedule.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Most of the people I know are older trail riders who want to keep learning and growing with their horses. They have gone for western dressage in a big way. There are a number of clinicians and trainers out here. Most are not that interested in competing, but just learning how to get their horses softer, more maneuverable, up into the bridle, etc. They have no interest in mortgaging their houses to buy show tack, or getting their horse to drag their nose on the ground at a walking-pace lope, and their days of racing around an arena at a dead run are in the past. It really fills a niche for western riders and I for one am really glad it is developing into something. 

I am pretty much there with them, just in an english saddle. Sometimes I could use a horn but I just don't like sitting in them things.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

SilverMaple said:


> The spade video is Les Vogt. If you ever get a chance to go to a clinic of his, even to just watch, do it.
> 
> I think people, including myself, brought up the Spade Bit horse in this discussion is because people said western horses lack self-carriage and cannot do dressage maneuvers. A horse trained well in the Vaquero tradition will have beautiful self-carriage and because of it, can do many of the maneuvers thought of as 'dressage'. He can collect and extend, go on very light contact, he's soft and flexible, but straight when he needs to be. Photos of a horse with this type of training can often be put side by side with an upper level dressage horse and the only difference is the tack. If you go back and look at the beginnings of the Vaquero traditions, you see that it's based in classical dressage through the Spanish who brought those ideas with them to what is now California and Mexico and blended with the new culture. They are really not so different. A true Bridle Horse can take from 4 - 8 years to train 'straight up in the bridle', it's not something to be rushed, neither is upper level dressage. A good trainer in either lets the horse show the pace of the training, not a timeline or show schedule.


The self carriage comments were in regards to moving into a curb, not to say that western horses can't be in self carriage. In traditional Dassage, by the time the curb is allowed, the horses are almost guaranteed to have some degree of self carriage, but with WD, that is not the case.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Different disciplines may demand different abilities from horses. And every discipline seems to have both good and bad examples of both trainers and practitioners. When comparing disciplines, controversies often arise when the same term is used to describe different movements. These movements often have some things in common but still possess different requirements. 

For example, one person may consider the difference in a collected and extended walk or trot simply the length of stride taken by the horse. Another person may add the additional requirement that the rhythm (or tempo) of the footfalls, as well as the pattern, must remain the same.

One person may make a distinction between the original shoulder-in (a four-track movement) and the demi-shoulder-in (a three-track movement). Another person may regard the shoulder-in as a three-track movement as currently defined by the FEI.

One person may refer to the “inside” of a horse meaning the side which is furthest from the wall or fence of an arena. Another person may regard the inside of the horse as the concave side of a bent horse even if this side is facing the wall or fence of an arena.

For the average rider, such distinctions may not seem all that important. When controversies in equestrian discussions arise, however, greater detail is often required for clarity.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The western approach to using a curb bit is to use the curb bit as a "signal" bit. The horse is ridden with slack in the reins. As the slack is removed, the curb bit starts to freely rotate - without creating pressure in the mouth. That period of free rotation is both very gentle AND a very clear signal to the horse. If the horse responds during the signal phase, he never feels the pressure, If he doesn't, then the pressure will come. As long as the rider doesn't snatch at the reins, and uses slack when possible, the design of the bit will strongly encourage the horse to act during the signal phase.

That is why it is common for a western horse to ride at a young age in a curb. Slack + curb, no snatching, and the horse can learn to respond to precise cues without having pressure build in the mouth.

It is also possible to teach a horse and rider to use constant contact with a curb, but it normally follows a lot of training. *It is not mean or hyper-critical to say WD needs to think about those differences*.

Here is another.

Most western curb bits have bent shanks. This is NOT so the horse can graze. It is needed to create a balanced bit in a horse who carries its head at 45 degrees. Used that way, the weight of the slack reins results in the end of the shank resting under the mouthpiece.

Traditional dressage curbs use straight shanks. Their horses are expected to carry their heads in the vertical. With straight shanks, the weight of the reins once again balances the end of the shank directly under the mouthpiece.

Both approaches allow the bit to balance without pressure with the end of the shank hanging below the mouthpiece. Both allow the curb strap to be adjusted so that the curb bit will rotate 45-60 degrees before the curb chain tightens. Once it tightens, the reins and the shank will still meet at an angle. Pulling on the reins then applies a rotational force to the horse's mouth.

However, what happens if you use a bent-shank curb on a horse whose head is carried vertically? Once you rotate the bit enough to engage the curb strap, the shanks are left pointing directly at the rider's hands. Pulling on the reins will no longer rotate the curb bit. The shank is already pulled totally toward the rider's hands. 

No more rotating curb bit. Instead, the curb chain and mouthpiece have squeezed the jaw and tongue, and that squeezed system is pulled linearly toward the rider. Compare the pictures below.

This is NOT how I like to ride, but so what? The curb is still acting as a curb. Moving the reins will still rotate the shanks:










Traditional dressage, taken off the Internet. Also not how I like to ride, but so what? The curb is functioning as a curb. It still rotates like a curb ought to:










If you bent the shank in the bottom picture 45 degrees, there would be a straight line from hand to shank end to mouthpiece. And the curb would no longer work. That is why the rider uses straight shanks.

This is not just some weird theory. When I first transitioned Mia to a curb bit years ago, this picture forced me to rethink what I was doing:










The almost straight shank, combined with a horse carrying her head at 45 degrees, meant the weight of the slack reins rotated the bit until the ends were under the mouthpiece. In doing so, it rotated the shanks enough to tighten the curb strap - and that meant Mia got ZERO signal from the curb. By switching to a bent-shank Billy Allen curb, I restored the "signal". As long as she didn't get too excited, Mia could then be ridden for hours while staying in the signal phase, making her a very happy horse.

As the WP picture shows, it depends on more than just the angle of the head. The total geometry of the horse has to be looked at. The curb bit should balance so the neutral position does not apply pressure, but the engaged position still allows the bit to rotate.

Western Dressage needs to address some of the issues that arise when tack is used in a way it was not designed to be used.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If you wish to go into angle of shanks, loose or fixed, and how it affects function, there are some very good videos on that subject, by those that actually design them, and are also horsemen, but that has nothing to do with a the subject here, except, the point that any and all good western training programs focus on the beginning of a horse's riding education being done with a non leverage devise, be it a snaffle or a bosal.
A horses then , through correct basic training, that works towards eventually having the horse ridden in a curb, to'graduate to a curb
That is how a truly light horse is produced, and why a Spade bit horses in a particular, goes through that extended training period, BEFORE a spade is ever used on that horse.
Riding a western horse with a curb, has a similar foundation, except the process getting the horse up into a curb is both shortened, and facilitated with 'transition type curbs ( jointed mouth, short shanked loose jawed curbs ), neither available in the past, nor now considered 'traditional', far as creating a Spade bit horse

One can resort to riding with two hands, on curbs, esp those that are loose jawed, but outside of western dressage, and events like games, not legal in western performance classes, as the expectations are that a horse, western, ridden in a curb, is at the education level of being then ridden one handed and on a loose rein
The later requires a horse way more 'broke', then riding him two handed with a curb
Some green horse western classes, do allow a rider to use two hands on a curb, but those classes are not official pointed breed classes


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as a curb being allowed to rotate correctly, you hold your hand up, riding with a curb correctly, so that any curb pressure is an up ward pull, and not down like using a snaffle

Main point:

'Before you consider if your horse is ready to advance to a curb bit, you must assess where your horse is at in a snaffle. A curb is a leverage bit which intensifies the pressure from a rider’s hands. It is used as a refining aid for riding one handed and is compulsory for most showing classes for horses over the age of five.

A horse is only ready for a curb when he is completely soft in a snaffle. By this I mean you must have complete body control of your horse in a snaffle and they must be able to perform each manoeuvre correctly every time you ask. Only once you have reached this point in your horse’s training should you move on to a curb bit. This does not mean that your horse has to be sliding 20 feet and turning like a bullet but they do have to be stopping correctly every time you ask, even if it is only five feet.

Do not step your horse up into a curb bit to get them softer or to tackle other problems as this will only be a quick fix. It will work for a few days but once your horse gets used to the action of the curb they will soon start doing whatever they were already doing in the snaffle. Going to a larger bit before the horse has mastered the snaffle will just amplify and transfer the problems you were already having.

https://www.westernhorseuk.com/western-horse-uk/the-curb


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

On my iPad so not even going attempt to cut and paste, but no WD does not need to address anything on one posters say so.

Do you not think that the sport is run by a bunch of people who want what is best for the horses. Again I can only talk of the competitions I attend, the lessons I receive, the clinics I attend, and the numerous judges I talk to....but everyone is looking for a happy soft looking horse, and no they are not looking for draped reins, but they are looking at the horse.

Again in my own case my trainer is not one who takes short cuts, the training I have and witness in others, both Traditional, and Western Dressage is about getting true softness and harmony.

I do find it amusing that the person who wants to lecture WD about bits, also wants to prove the world wrong about Tom Thumb bits.....


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

So, honest question, @Golden Horse---

If one were to ride a western dressage test one-handed on a loose rein in a curb, would that be scored equal, above, or lower than a test ridden two-handed on a curb with contact? Is there a preference 'all other things being equal'? WD hasn't made inroads here, yet, so I have never seen it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> On my iPad so not even going attempt to cut and paste, but no WD does not need to address anything on one posters say so.
> 
> Do you not think that the sport is run by a bunch of people who want what is best for the horses. Again I can only talk of the competitions I attend, the lessons I receive, the clinics I attend, and the numerous judges I talk to....but everyone is looking for a happy soft looking horse, and no they are not looking for draped reins, but they are looking at the horse.
> 
> ...



I hope you are not referring to me, Golden, as I have no problem with people using equipment as per their discipline, nor with western dressage, as I don't ride in it
It is a \new' discipline, that is evolving,based on basic dressage principles, but allowing the rider to use western tack.
It does use curb bits, outside of how they are used western, but that is neither here nor there=just different. Gymkana also allows two hands on a curb. Also does not concern me

Only 'lecture'I ever ventured on, far as a TT, is that all jointed mouth curbs are not true TT, even though tack catlogues use that term broadly, just like they refer to the same bit as 'shanked snaffle
A jointed mouth curb, unless it has fixed straight up and down shanks, is neither a TT nor a snaffle. Not a TT as it does not have fixed short straight up and down shanks, and not a snaffle, since it has leverage
I only went into 'traditional Vaquero and western horse training, to clarify that western dressage is it's won discipline, and not a version of either Vaquero or traditional western training, where a horse goes through basic training program, in a snaffle or bosal, and the graduates to a curb, where he must be ridden one handed to show
Sure, some curbs esp, allow two handed reining, those that have loose cheeks in particular, and it is common to train, often, at home, using two hands on such a curb, as it is way easier to rein a horse that way, then one handed, esp through complicated maneuvers, but, the horse is expected to be able to be shown one handed.
Nothing wrong with western dressage, as anew discipline, allowing horses also to be shown that way, But I do think, extra credit or class should be available for a horse shown in a curb one handed in western dressage and separate classes for those that stay in a snaffle past age 5, but that is just personal opinion, and rules for western dressage will be established by voting members, same as any other discipline


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> So, honest question, @*Golden Horse* ---
> 
> If one were to ride a western dressage test one-handed on a loose rein in a curb, would that be scored equal, above, or lower than a test ridden two-handed on a curb with contact? Is there a preference 'all other things being equal'? WD hasn't made inroads here, yet, so I have never seen it.


I don't honestly know the answer to that Silver Maple, You would have to ask a judge. I have seen the WP horses place well, but not this year, they are looking for a more forward gait. Canada and the US sadly have different rules already, not sure what either actually would place higher.



Smilie said:


> I hope you are not referring to me, Golden, as I have no problem with people using equipment as per their discipline, nor with western dressage, as I don't ride in it
> It is a \new' discipline, that is evolving,based on basic dressage principles, but allowing the rider to use western tack.
> It does use curb bits, outside of how they are used western, but that is neither here nor there=just different. Gymkana also allows two hands on a curb. Also does not concern me


No Smilie, definitely not you, I respect your experience and knowledge, and know your views on this....I think we agree as long as there are happy horses then anything that gets bums in saddles is a good thing.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I know in the US, if using a curb with split reins two hands can be used. If using Rommel reins only one hand is allowed. How the reins are held will be judged.

If two horses equal in their quality of gaits, relaxation, implosion, collection, and are listening to the aids, but one is being ridden one handed with a curb and the other is two handed, I bet the judge would score the one handed rider higher. The horse is more educated at that point. Is that not the point of dressage? The education of the horse and rider?

At this point, I do not believe that at a certain level, all horses have to be in a curb one handed. I personally think that should be considered in the future as western dressage grows.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> At this point, I do not believe that at a certain level, all horses have to be in a curb one handed. I personally think that should be considered in the future as western dressage grows.


The sport will obviously grow and develop as time goes on it is so new. My prediction that it will in time have a snaffle only requirement for Intro and Basic, maybe keep the 'training' curb, one or two handed at 1st, maybe 2nd, and then one handed fixed curb above that.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> The sport will obviously grow and develop as time goes on it is so new. My prediction that it will in time have a snaffle only requirement for Intro and Basic, maybe keep the 'training' curb, one or two handed at 1st, maybe 2nd, and then one handed fixed curb above that.


From talking to WDAA folks at the World Champs, their stated goal is to ban the curb and go to snaffle only up to a certain point. They know that if they do that now they'll lose members, so they're not willing to push that at this time.


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