# I REALLY need opinions on this, please -Longish-



## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

My 5yr old QH is an extremely nervous horse it seems like. Whenever he is away from the other horses, or they walk away from him. He freaks, starts rearing, pacing, sweating. Will NOT stand still. If i am next to him touching him he is alright (for the most part, still paces) he calms down a bit. Once i walk away, its all bad. He starts screaming and rearing, etc etc. Even if i walk a few feet away from him to grab tack. We recently moved him to a boarding facility while we fix up our barn. As far as riding, he has never rode with another horse that he doesnt know. A gal at the facility was getting a lesson. Soon i started to mount him, he reared and flipped over. Eventually i got on him, as soon as i sat down on the saddle he took off towards the horse. You can imagine the fight that we had over this. I pulled his head to my foot to stop him, yet he continued to sidepass towards the other horse. Eventually i got him to go forward, then he would spin around and take off again. The gal riding went to the outside arena. Because ofcourse we were getting in the way of her lesson with my horse relentlessly trying to get to her horse. So we are riding in the arena alone.. every single time we pass the gate, no matter how much i pop him with the crop or use my spurs on him he stops and screams. I tried doing exercises around the gate, that led to repetitive rearing and screaming. Then i decided to work in the middle of the arena and working on lead changes. Which went better then the rest of the time. Today i rode him again, this time alone. But the same old thing, trying to rear when mounting, taking off towards the gate, stoping at the gate, constant screaming, pacing. I know its a phase and he is a baby and still learning, but honestly im lost with what i can do to try to calm him? He relies on me or the other horses as a comfort, he is not independent. I know separation is the best thing, but right now thats not an option, because of the boarding facility once i get the horses moved home you better believe he will be by himself. I dont want to use a calming agent, because im really not accomplishing anything. I work him in a full cheek snaffle, and i lunge him for 20min before i ride all the time. What are your takes on this? Im desperate for any other ideas. :?


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## knickerb (Apr 22, 2010)

.Delete.

A horse has no conception of time. If you can get your horse to believe that when he is alone or when he is with you, sometime later another horse will eventually show up or he will be reunited with another horse you can fix this problem. Now to convince him of this he has to go through the experience of alone-horse appears, alone-horse appears, alone-horse appears, etc. What you want is for him to get worked up a bit, a horse appears, he calms down, horse leaves, he gets worked up, horse appears, he calms down, etc. The time he is alone before he figures all the horses have left should increase. Eventually he will figure he has no need to get worked up as another horse will show up if he just hangs around. I don't know if your situation is conducive to this but it's an idea.

Ben


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Thank you, i will try that. From my experiences people have told me to "work threw it and he will get over it eventually" But i feel asif he is being a danger to me, himself, and other people around him with this behavior.


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## knickerb (Apr 22, 2010)

.Delete. 

You will never go wrong listening to you gut.

Ben


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Your horse is heard bound. Tie your horse in the stall until he stands quiet. Once he does turn him out for his "reward". Ignore it for awhile because it's going to get worse before it gets better. Unless he's tearing the walls down I wouldn't worry too much. 

I wouldn't ride him with another horse until he's ready. And if you absolutely have to I would just work him on the ground before you get on his back. Unless your a 100% confident rider I wouldn't do that. With no offense intended from what you've posted it doesn't sound like you are. 

If you lunge everytime you ride and it isn't for respect all you're doing is getting him stronger and stronger, making it easier for him to fight you... 

"no matter how much i pop him with the crop or use my spurs on him he stops and screams" This statement scares me, and I would get a professional trainer. It actually makes me want to vomit.. Do i even have to explain why?

From what I've read, it's you. Not your horse, why the HELL would you ride a horse that is rearing with spurs AND a crop?.. I mean what are you thinking? Your horse is probably telling you that all your doing his hurting him. And I bet money that when your horse is starting to spook you grip your legs on his sides, with spurs..

I need to breathe and not go off.. I expected more from you.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

He's herd/buddy sour.

Bascially you are going to have to ignore what he is doing and keep working him if you want to accomplish anything.

I work in the arena with other horses, without other horses, start alone, end alone, etc. I will sometimes get a horse who decides they have to drop the shoulder or try and watch the other horse being worked or scream and try to head towards the gate or door when the other horse leaves. I simply change what I am working on. If I have to work on something specifc, the session can end up being two hours long. 

Horses are herd animals. You have changed his routine and he is looking for a leader/alpha. Be that alpha.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

White Foot said:


> Your horse is heard bound. Tie your horse in the stall until he stands quiet. Once he does turn him out for his "reward". Ignore it for awhile because it's going to get worse before it gets better. Unless he's tearing the walls down I wouldn't worry too much.
> 
> I wouldn't ride him with another horse until he's ready. And if you absolutely have to I would just work him on the ground before you get on his back. Unless your a 100% confident rider I wouldn't do that. With no offense intended from what you've posted it doesn't sound like you are.
> 
> ...


Perhaps your assuming that im beating my horse? The statement did sound a bit rough, but trust me i dont "stab my horse with my spurs" I give him pressure with the spurs and pop him in the but with the crop. Nothing more nothing less. I dont abuse the aids i use with a horse. Iv always ridden him with spurs, and he did not start rearing untill i introduced new horses. And no he is not *starting to spook when i grip my legs* i am very light with my legs. Aswell as everything else. I dont like a horse that is "dull sided" like my pervious show horse so i do everything i can to keep him light and responsive. Sounds as if your biased against spurs? But then again thats the impression im getting from your post, just like the bad impression you got from mine. Riding aids are only as harsh as the rider. And trust me i am certainly not harsh with my aids. I dont see why a pop in the butt with a crop and pressure with spurs is such a horrible thing.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> Perhaps your assuming that im beating my horse? The statement did sound a bit rough, but trust me i dont "stab my horse with my spurs" I give him pressure with the spurs and pop him in the but with the crop. Nothing more nothing less. I dont abuse the aids i use with a horse. Iv always ridden him with spurs, and he did not start rearing untill i introduced new horses. And no he is not *starting to spook when i grip my legs* i am very light with my legs. Aswell as everything else. I dont like a horse that is "dull sided" like my pervious show horse so i do everything i can to keep him light and responsive. Sounds as if your biased against spurs? But then again thats the impression im getting from your post, just like the bad impression you got from mine. Riding aids are only as harsh as the rider. And trust me i am certainly not harsh with my aids. I dont see why a pop in the butt with a crop and pressure with spurs is such a horrible thing.


Trust me, I will use aids when needed, I'm not biased to anything artificial aid. On the other hand if it's not needed or I'm reading what you're dishing out correctly I guess you could say I am a bit "biased". 

So let me get this correct, You are taking an already flighty, herd bound horse, that "rears", "freaks", "paces", and "sweats" (all your words) and using spurs and a crop to try and get his attention? The only reason why horses get "dull sided" is because people don't learn how to correctly give and take away pressure. If you're always putting the pressure on and never releasing it the horse will get numb to your leg cues. Using spurs on a horse that obviously doesn't listen to you in the first place is a huge no,no. All you're doing is making the experience worse. It's not like what you're describing is an old 20y/o lesson horse that is lazy and needs a crop or spurs every now and again.. 

When your horse walks passed that gate, you don't kick him with your spurs and smack him with the crop to try and regain is attention, that screams poor riding skills; A disaster waiting to happen. You have always ridden him with spurs? might I ask why you feel you need them on a horse like what you're describing? have you ever ridden him without spurs or is it just something you think makes your outfit look better? In the beginning if all you do is keep putting pressure on, esp with spurs all you're doing is making the horse numb, so later on in his riding life you will need to have more and more of the pressure. 


A five year old horse shouldn't have to be ridden with spurs AND a crop already.. something is wrong here.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I use the crop for the sole reason to keep him from stoping at the gate, nothing more nothing less. I dont understand why that is such a bad thing? Im not abusing the aid in any way.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

He's only stopping at the gate because *you're *letting him! So why should he have to be punished with a tap from a crop when it's your fault? Someone should be tapping you on your as!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

How in the world am i letting him stop? When am i trying everything i can think of to keep him forward past it, yet he slamms on the breaks everytime. I have never stopped him at that gate before. So please, explain how am i letting him.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> A five year old horse shouldn't have to be ridden with spurs AND a crop already.. something is wrong here.


Just quickly - Spurs aren't a disciplinary tool - I know plenty of 5 year olds who are ridden with spurs for refinement and do great.

*

Okay. I have sympathy! Latte is also very herd bound. She was 5 when i got her and was still in a paddock with her dam :S.

Horses will always revert to what they learnt first. When Latte gets uppity because the other horses are leaving, I go back to our basic, ridden work at a walk. I ride her in a smal figure eight, small enough that I can get a good bend going. I bend her a bit more than usual, and focus on changing the bend through the middle. If she stops and puts her head up to neigh, the inside rein opens up as astrongly as needed, inside legs goes on, and she needs to get bending around my leg immediatly. The big plus is that this disengages the hindquarters which takes away any ability to rear/buck. I also use my voice - If she scoots her butt under and throws her head up to try and dash toward the others, I will also growl low in my throat while asking her to bend around my leg - The second I get that bend and submission, growling stops, and I just keep her bending forward and continue on our figure eight. 

Once I have attention, I move it up to a trot, and I keep it at a trot until she is getting tired. I don't stick to a firgure eight, but I do stick to circles and keeping a bend through her body. I mgiht do two left circles, then one right - make a snowman - Do one big circle then one small. I sometimes halt and back up in the middle of two circles, looking for the bend through the poll and soft back up, then continue on my new circle.


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

.Delete. it sounds like your guy is herd bound. This can be worked through but it does take a lot of effort. To better help you I would need to know a little bit more about his past riding/training experiance. When he was first learning to ride was it by himself, sometimes with others, or always with his buddies? It almost sounds like it was always with his buddies but I could be wrong. Generally I find that if I start a horse and he is in a herd but comes out to work with me and ride by himself he transitions quite well. 

If however he only ever rides with his herd buddies then they don't learn that being with just me is safe (my mom's horse is a little bit like this). 

My other question is how is your relationship with him? Does he see you as a safe alternative to a horse? If you have a good relationship with him, take him places (in hand) that he normally wouldn't go...down the driveway, into the bush and see how he reacts. Do you ever take him for trail rides? or is it all in an arena setting? I have found that if I take my young horses on trails they learn to deal with scary situations and trust me (I will do this with other horses until they are confortable being ridden then move to just us)

Anyway if I could have a little bit more info I might be able to help better.


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

White foot just because someone doesn't agree with what you are saying doesn't mean they are wrong. I train with spurs sometimes to on young horses...it's all in how you use them and the needs of the horse. You can't make a decision on her methods if you don't have all of the info.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Also want to add that I don't have an arena so all of my work with Latte is out on the trails.


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

Wild spot, I do have access to an outdoor arena and still do 90-95% of my training on the trails. You have to use all of the skills that we teach in an arena but it's for a reason. I find that my horses understand better if they are shown "why" I'm asking them do do things the way I am.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Thank you for your response WildSpot, we do lots and lots of bending, and circles and such. He was pulled out of a pasture at the age of 4, and has been with about 8 horses his entire life just out in a field. I dont have that much experience starting older horses, do they tend to be more herd bound?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't either - Latte is the first horse i've started, lol. I would say it doesn't depend so much on age but living conditions up until that age - in the case of both Latte and your boy, they are used to being with a herd and have never really had to adjust to being away from them.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Silvera said:


> .Delete. it sounds like your guy is herd bound. This can be worked through but it does take a lot of effort. To better help you I would need to know a little bit more about his past riding/training experiance. When he was first learning to ride was it by himself, sometimes with others, or always with his buddies? It almost sounds like it was always with his buddies but I could be wrong. Generally I find that if I start a horse and he is in a herd but comes out to work with me and ride by himself he transitions quite well.
> 
> If however he only ever rides with his herd buddies then they don't learn that being with just me is safe (my mom's horse is a little bit like this).
> 
> ...


I started him by himself, up untill now he has been out to pasture by himself since he has been here with me. I have not taken him out on a trail yet, i do plan on it! I havent had the time (with moving into a new house as soon as the wether gets good enough to get my trailer out) He has been ridden all over my old property, and has done fine. Its just he has never been exposed to different horses he doesnt know. I feel asif we have a good relationship to an extent, he will follow me anywhere (so far). If i am on the ground with him, next to him, interacting with him, close to him. He is fine, still screams and paces a bit. But for the most part is fine


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Wild spot, I do have access to an outdoor arena and still do 90-95% of my training on the trails. You have to use all of the skills that we teach in an arena but it's for a reason. I find that my horses understand better if they are shown "why" I'm asking them do do things the way I am.


I definately agree with this - Horses learn much better by doing. Sidepassing is so much clearer when a gate whacks them in the hiney if they don't :]


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> If i am on the ground with him, next to him, interacting with him, close to him. He is fine, still screams and paces a bit. But for the most part is fine


Latte is funny - She is fine if i'm there. On the weekend I put her away while the others headed off for more trails, and she was fine while I stood in the paddock giving her scratches, but as soon as I walked away, she was off - screaming, galloping, bucking, head and tail in the air - Bloody Ay-rab!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

wild_spot said:


> Latte is funny - She is fine if i'm there. On the weekend I put her away while the others headed off for more trails, and she was fine while I stood in the paddock giving her scratches, but as soon as I walked away, she was off - screaming, galloping, bucking, head and tail in the air - Bloody Ay-rab!


Almost exactly how Slick is, :?


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

wild_spot said:


> Sidepassing is so much clearer when a gate whacks them in the hiney if they don't :]



lol that's a funny line, anyway it's totally true. It works a lot better also because we are so focused on not getting out leg taken off by the tree, we tend to work a little more affectivly with that motivation 

Anyway back to the issue at hand 

I have worked with herd bound horses before (like I said my mom's horse is a little herd bound himself, better now but still rears it's ugly head every now and then)

I have found that you get better resaults if the horse IS in a herd living situation. It may not be the easiest way to work but it does get better results in the long run because after we are finished training we generally put them into a herd. We then expect them to know how to behave when taken out of it to work. The problem with that is we never really trained them to know that everything is ok with this situation.

So, if it was me and my horse (this is just how I would deal with this situation and is only my opinion) I would start by having them in a herd with at least two other horses if possible. If not then work with what you can  I would then take some time to strangthen his relationship with you. Once he is calm, cool, and collected away from his buddies (with you with him) then I would start working. This may take a day or it may take a week, go with what works for him. 

Once he is feeling safe with you then start working a little bit in the arena on patterns, circles, figure 8, bending, side passes, anything he knows already. I would also start taking him out on trails (if he is capable of doing this by himself then that's the way I would start). When he is calm out and about at walk/trot/canter then I would introduce going for rides with another horse speradically, don't make it a thing that happens all the time or you loose some of the progress you have made. 

Go into every session with him, be it a working session or a lets hang and eat some grass building a stronger relationship session, with possitive expectations. If we expect possitive outcomes then we are more likely to get it because A) we don't except bad behaviour as readily and B) they sence the possitive attitude coming from us and want to make us happy.

Hope this helps a little, if anything didn't make sense let me know and I'll try to word it differently. Good luck


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Thank you Silvera! I will certainly try that! Makes sense =]


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

Anytime!!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Buttt....quick question how can i correct his bad behavior in the crossties? If i reprimand him he only gets worse.


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

what is he doing? and how are you reprimanding him?


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Rearing, moving side to side, those kind of things. I kinda do a loud "hey!" and walk over to him tell him to stand, which as soon as i go over there he stops. What else could i do? If i smack him i dont think it would help anything... or geeze i have no clue what to do


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

The problem is walking away from him,


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

Well there are a few things you could try, it depends on how he takes it. I usually do give my guys a quick wack on the shoulder accompanied by either a sharp angry voiced "stand" or "No" or whatever you want to use. I cup my hand so it makes a good sounds. It's not to hurt him, just to shock him into realizing he has done something wrong. Then when he stops and stands praise him with scratches and "good boy" in a nice tone of voice. If that works then go with it.

If not I would go back to straight tieing for a bit. The thing with cross-ties is it doesn't allow him to move much. If he feels confined because he can't move he will be more nervouse and act up more. If you do go to straight tieing for a bit I would still dicipline him like I said above so he get's used to that. When he responds well to the dicipline in the straight tie and stands then go back to cross-ties.

Does that help?


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

I always have my things ready before I put my horse in the cross-ties. Even my 3yr old (who stands like a rock) that way you can control the situation if anything happens and you don't need to leave him. Once he gets confortable standing then your ability to move farther away will increase but it takes time


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Yes, earn the "trustworthy leader" position*

He ignores you & wants to fit into a herd elsewhere means he doesn't perceive you as his leader at this point, in your herd of two. I'd stay off him & develop the relationship on the ground first, due to rearing, etc. Parelli 7 Games, imo, would be perfect for this situation.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

If he is just being a nuisance and not actually endangering himself or anyone else then I would let him continue to act like an idiot until he calms down. Get him calm with you near him and then walk to the spot where he starts to get nervous. Then just stay there and talk to him. Once he even puts an ear on you and/or calms down at all then go back to him calmly and rub him all over and get him really calm then do it again. As long as he realizes you aren't THAT far away and that you WILL come back he will be ok with you gone for longer and longer distances. Don't push him very hard with this though because they are easily confused by approach and retreat. Only do a little at a time but don't be afraid to stand 4 feet away from him while he acts like an idiot for a half hour until he tires himself out. Eventually if you keep talking to him he will clue in on you and you can go to him and reward him with your presence. 

As for the rearing and things at the gate I would work on the separation anxiety on the ground and then go back to trying to fix his under saddle problems. However, if he is doing really well with the anxiety on the ground I would go back to riding him and make sure you have a lunge line out there with you. It's dangerous to try to ride out the behavior and obviously not working. So instead of pushing him to go forward ride him out (within reason) until it is safe to get off. Then hop off and make him hustle on the lunge line. Really get after him for 5-10 minutes until he's really listening to you. Then get on and continue riding around at a walk then next time he freaks out same thing. He will eventually realize that if he freaks out he has to work HARD and if he just listens to you in the saddle and stays calm then he doesn't have to work as hard. It is also much safer for you to bail off and work from the ground if he is rearing and losing his mind than trying to ride through it.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

You're letting him stop by not being an active rider, you can't just sit on top, being passive, and expect him to know what you're thinking. What would an active rider do in your situation? They would know that the gate is his problem area so way at the other end of the arena they would start to get ready and drive him through the problem area. If his attention was on you to begin with he would keep moving through his problem area. If that is his problem area don't work him at the end with the gate, work him at the other. If it's other horses that make him rear then only do ground work until he gets used to riding with others.

I agree with Northern. You need to lunge him for respect, not to get his energy out. Like I said earlier if you lunge him every time before a ride all you're doing is making him stronger and stronger, meaning he can fight you easier and easier every time. I personally like to use that extra energy in the beginning and work on something constructive.

I understand now, this is your first time training a horse who has 2 years of under the saddle experience? :shock: And you need to use spurs and a crop? The only reason why I'm drilling you about it is because it's not right. I'll say it again and again. If anyone here doesn't see anything wrong with it or it's a "different way of training" then I've lost all hope. 

Why don't you try and work him on the ground until he gets used to being away from the herd and you can control his attention? It will make for an easier ride later. You have plenty of time to ride, you own him for godsakes so why rush it? Before all of his buddies go out why not get ready and tie him in his stall and do that everyday for a few minutes everyday, as soon as he stands quiet, take him outside for a reward. You will have to ignore his piggish behavior until he understands he won't get attention until he stands quiet. 

When my horse would know that his buddies were outside without him he was very herd bound and the first few days in the arena I couldn't keep his attention for crap, he would call out, get antsy, and just nasty. I kept all the horses inside until I was done working him, he worked 1000% better just knowing the horses were inside. Then one day I realized that other places I board at I won't have the luxury of keeping the horses inside at my expense so I tied him, he kicked down a stall board until he realized he would only be rewarded by standing quiet. 

When he rears while your riding I'm assuming it's because right from the get go you had none of his attention and he had all of his head. When he feel him get all worked up you break him down. Only work him at the walk until you know you have his full attention, then once you do move him to the trot, eta.. If he doesn't like the gate then use that as your stopping/resting spot. Many horses get to rest in the middle, which is why alot of lesson horses want to bring the rider into the middle. Work him and then when he's being good bring him to the gate for a "reward" and let him rest. Sooner or later he will realize that it's not such a bad place because that's where he gets to rest.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Just quickly - Spurs aren't a disciplinary tool - I know plenty of 5 year olds who are ridden with spurs for refinement and do great.


The way she's using them, they are for discipline. Right, and are these 5 year old horses herd bound, rearing, spooking, flighty, and nervous? :wink: If so I would question the riders of the horses you know.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> know plenty of 5 year olds who are ridden with spurs *for refinement* and do great.


 
That would kind of imply that no, they aren't. I am aware this situation is different, but a blanket statement that no 5yo should be ridden in spurs is baloney.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> That would kind of imply that no, they aren't. I am aware this situation is different, but a blanket statement that no 5yo should be ridden in spurs is baloney.


Well I'm guessing those horses were started at the age of three or four? And ridden religiously after that.. not left in a pasture and barely worked. I don't see why anyone feels that after one or two years of under the saddle training they need spurs. If they were trained correctly I bet money on it, they wouldn't need spurs. I understand that there are the occasional 5y/o that has the 20y/o horse mentality... but even then.. 

If the situation is different then why are you trying to defend the OP? :? No five year old SHOULD NEED to be ridden with spurs.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I wasn't defending the OP in the slightest - I just didn't agree with that statement so refuted it :]



> I don't see why anyone feels that after one or two years of under the saddle training they need spurs.


I guess the BNT who turn out horses that win at the big shows missed the memo.

I don't know about general flatwork, but for cow work and fast turns, spurs are a handy tool, and almost an essential tool, for many horses. I use spurs on my 7yo - I can do everything without them, but I get cleaner, faster and snappier haunch turns and rollbacks when I have them on.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

.Delete., you've gotten some really good advice here. One thing I'd like to add on the issue with the gate, though. My guy is a touch herd-bound, and the gate is a pretty attractive magnet when we work in the arena. Turning toward the gate he drops his shoulder, loses all flexibility, and very clearly pulls toward the gate. Going away he loses his forward. He's getting better, and I'm learning to be a more active and correct rider. He's very able to say "Yes'm, I'll trot past that gate this lap", but I do have to remind him. Something that helps me immensely is to work him harder by the gate, a good, forward, working trot circle or spiral. When he relaxes and is willing, I trot away and allow him to stop and rest at some other random point on the rail. The gate becomes a spot that means harder work more than a return to the herd. 

I would not at all be afraid to back up my leg with a crop to get him forward, which sounds like a chunk of his problem anyway, if he's rearing. I never needed to with my guy (also an older re-start, for all practical purposes), but he's pretty forward minded anyway. Not all horses are, and some need motivated a little more. 

@ White Foot: You do know that spurs aren't to make the horse go faster, right? They're for subtlety of sideways directed aids, for moving the ribcage sideways. A crop is for encouraging forward and lengthening stride. I know of several colt starters who will introduce spurs on the second ride or so. Used correctly on an educated, stable leg spurs are excellent tools. 

Might I ask how you would recommend that the OP get her horse moving forward under saddle without the crop? Groundwork is great, but sooner or later he's going to try this again under saddle, and that's where it will need dealt with at some point. All that you have done thus far is make blanket statements against spur usage and suggest ways that generally make the gate even more of a stop-magnet under saddle. Not being snippy, just an honest question. :wink:


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

^ Agree about everything. And Whitefoot I find it funny that in other threads you have bashed posters for being "harsh and unhelpful" and then turn around and attack this poor poster. I believe that Wild_Spot's cliche applies in your case...Pot.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

White Foot said:


> Well I'm guessing those horses were started at the age of three or four? And ridden religiously after that.. not left in a pasture and barely worked. I don't see why anyone feels that after one or two years of under the saddle training they need spurs. If they were trained correctly I bet money on it, they wouldn't need spurs. I understand that there are the occasional 5y/o that has the 20y/o horse mentality... but even then..
> 
> If the situation is different then why are you trying to defend the OP? :? No five year old SHOULD NEED to be ridden with spurs.


Exactly what discipline do you ride? Those of us with working horses (cutting, reining, versatility, reined cowhorse, dressage, etc) DO ride our horses with spurs FOR CUE REFINEMENT. These are some of the most finely trained horses out there.

If my horse decides to drop his shoulder, I roll my spur up and he corrects. If I need him to get his front end over NOW to stop a cow - I press with my heel and over he goes. 

Then there is the case of individuals with no leg strength and need spurs to communicate with the horse. You can't do everything off the horses face.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Also Whitefoot you're riding your horse in your avatar in a training fork that really is a bit too small and all you can do with a running martingale is to create a false headset and a hollow horse with the way you are using it. I'm assuming you think that is much better than using a crop and whip selectively to school, train or work a horse?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Sorry OP for the tangent in your thread but I must ask. White Foot, at what AGE do you think a horse should be allowed to have spurs used with it?


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

White Foot said:


> *You're letting him stop by not being an active rider, you can't just sit on top, being passive, and expect him to know what you're thinking.* What would an active rider do in your situation? They would know that the gate is his problem area so way at the other end of the arena they would start to get ready and drive him through the problem area. If his attention was on you to begin with he would keep moving through his problem area. If that is his problem area don't work him at the end with the gate, work him at the other. If it's other horses that make him rear then only do ground work until he gets used to riding with others.
> 
> I agree with Northern. You need to lunge him for respect, not to get his energy out. Like I said earlier if you lunge him every time before a ride all you're doing is making him stronger and stronger, meaning he can fight you easier and easier every time. I personally like to use that extra energy in the beginning and work on something constructive.
> 
> ...


Honestly WhiteFoot, with all do respect; You dont know what your talking about with these statements. I am not just sitting there and waiting for him to move forward. Im putting pressure from the spurs and popping him in the but with the crop to enforce forward motion. How is that being passive? Didnt you just get done ripping me a new one for useing "SpUrS aNd A cRoP?!?!?! OHEMGEE! YOUR SUCH A BAD PERSON!!" If im using spurs and a crop and working on keeping him forward when passing the gate yet beside my efforts he still slams on the breaks. How is that being passive? Im not sitting there and being like "oh please, please pretty horsey please keep going". once he stops i get after him (no that doesnt mean i stab him with my spurs and beat him with the crop :?). So please, explain how i am being passive?

Your second statement. Ahem: I got him in newyork where he stood in a pasture till the age of 4 (he is 5 now), only being fed grass and hay. With 8 other horses. Once i brought him home (last winter) he had a bowed tendon which called for handwalking (some ground work) and stall rest. Once that healed (which took about 3 months). I started lunging and doing ground work. Once the wether broke, i started breaking him. So since about March. He has been being riden in moderation since, i have been busy lately (with moving and such) so not as often as id like. No he has not been ridden "rigorously" i have no idea where you get that from. He gets ridden for 45 min at the most right now, usually 30 min. I dont know where you got "2yr of experience under saddle" from?


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

White Foot said:


> When he rears while your riding I'm assuming it's because right from the get go you had none of his attention and he had all of his head. When he feel him get all worked up you break him down. Only work him at the walk until you know you have his full attention, then once you do move him to the trot, eta.. If he doesn't like the gate then use that as your stopping/resting spot. Many horses get to rest in the middle, which is why alot of lesson horses want to bring the rider into the middle. Work him and then when he's being good bring him to the gate for a "reward" and let him rest. Sooner or later he will realize that it's not such a bad place because that's where he gets to rest.


Wait a minute, he isnt scared of the gate. He is stoping at it and trying to see the other horses and screaming. Thats what i have been saying this whole time. If i use the gate as his "resting place" isnt that re-enforcing him stopping at it? He sees the gate as the way out to get to the other horses, and to the other horses is where he wants to go.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

.Delete. said:


> Wait a minute, he isnt scared of the gate. He is stoping at it and trying to see the other horses and screaming. Thats what i have been saying this whole time. If i use the gate as his "resting place" isnt that re-enforcing him stopping at it? He sees the gate as the way out to get to the other horses, and to the other horses is where he wants to go.


Yes - you are correct. I do not let my horses stop at the gate/door. I end the session in different places so the horse does not learn that one particular area means the work is done.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Scoutrider said:


> @ White Foot: You do know that spurs aren't to make the horse go faster, right? They're for subtlety of sideways directed aids, for moving the ribcage sideways. A crop is for encouraging forward and lengthening stride. I know of several colt starters who will introduce spurs on the second ride or so. Used correctly on an educated, stable leg spurs are excellent tools.
> 
> Might I ask how you would recommend that the OP get her horse moving forward under saddle without the crop? Groundwork is great, but sooner or later he's going to try this again under saddle, and that's where it will need dealt with at some point. All that you have done thus far is make blanket statements against spur usage and suggest ways that generally make the gate even more of a stop-magnet under saddle. Not being snippy, just an honest question. :wink:


Yes, they are good for a horse that is trained to give complete attention to he rider and is willing to work off the leg. Spurs are not meant to be used in the way she's using them, the horse should know the go forward cue before being ridden with spurs, and spurs aren't meant to teach the horse that. And I would have to question the "colt starters" you know, why would they do that? to skip over a critical part of training so they can get faster results? 

Someone came in with a horse that supposedly would do a "dead stop" infront of random things. Yeah, when riding he did do a stop right in front of the door, but without spurs or a crop I got him through it. I would suggest when he does that you keep pushing him forward, and by keeping his attention you can achieve this. If he tries to back up then you put your hands out and give more slack while still coaxing him to go forward. The first few times it won't be pretty at all, but after a few passes he will understand what needs to be done. Being an active rider means your ready for the horse to stop at the gate, so like I said, you start to work him way at the other end of the arena, getting ready to drive him through it.

My boss and I have yet to meet a horse that absolutely has to be ridden with spurs.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> ^ Agree about everything. And Whitefoot I find it funny that in other threads you have bashed posters for being "harsh and unhelpful" and then turn around and attack this poor poster. I believe that Wild_Spot's cliche applies in your case...Pot.


I'm sorry you feel that way :wink:


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

mls said:


> Exactly what discipline do you ride? Those of us with working horses (cutting, reining, versatility, reined cowhorse, dressage, etc) DO ride our horses with spurs FOR CUE REFINEMENT. These are some of the most finely trained horses out there.
> 
> If my horse decides to drop his shoulder, I roll my spur up and he corrects. If I need him to get his front end over NOW to stop a cow - I press with my heel and over he goes.
> 
> Then there is the case of individuals with no leg strength and need spurs to communicate with the horse. You can't do everything off the horses face.


I ride western "working horses". I need to clarify something *I'm NOT against spurs, it depends on the situation, the rider and the horse. 

Would you ride a hot horse with spurs? :shock:

*Again, it sounds to me that YOU are using your spurs correctly. Your horse obviously knows how to work off your legs and listen to you. That's something completely different than riding a horse that doesn't even know the forward cue. 

No you can't do everything off the horses face, and I never said you could.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> Also Whitefoot you're riding your horse in your avatar in a training fork that really is a bit too small and all you can do with a running martingale is to create a false headset and a hollow horse with the way you are using it. I'm assuming you think that is much better than
> using a crop and whip selectively to school, train or work a horse?


If you go back in my older posts you will see where I said that I don't agree with it. This was when Gunther turned three and went into training for the first time, I had NO idea what I was looking for. Now that I'm doing an internship with a professional trainer I know what to look for. I completely agree that it's too small and if I could go back and change it I would. 

When Gunther went into training I thought "oh these are all professionals so I have to trust everything they say" I now know differently. I would never do this to a horse in training, all they did was try and rush his training. They didn't want to take the time to train his headset and used artificial aids to rush it.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

White Foot said:


> *Would you ride a hot horse with spurs? :shock:*


Yes. I do.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

.Delete. said:


> Honestly WhiteFoot, with all do respect; You dont know what your talking about with these statements. I am not just sitting there and waiting for him to move forward. Im putting pressure from the spurs and popping him in the but with the crop to enforce forward motion. How is that being passive? Didnt you just get done ripping me a new one for useing "SpUrS aNd A cRoP?!?!?! OHEMGEE! YOUR SUCH A BAD PERSON!!" If im using spurs and a crop and working on keeping him forward when passing the gate yet beside my efforts he still slams on the breaks. How is that being passive? Im not sitting there and being like "oh please, please pretty horsey please keep going". once he stops i get after him (no that doesnt mean i stab him with my spurs and beat him with the crop :?). So please, explain how i am being passive?
> 
> Your second statement. Ahem: I got him in newyork where he stood in a pasture till the age of 4 (he is 5 now), only being fed grass and hay. With 8 other horses. Once i brought him home (last winter) he had a bowed tendon which called for handwalking (some ground work) and stall rest. Once that healed (which took about 3 months). I started lunging and doing ground work. Once the wether broke, i started breaking him. So since about March. He has been being riden in moderation since, i have been busy lately (with moving and such) so not as often as id like. No he has not been ridden "rigorously" i have no idea where you get that from. He gets ridden for 45 min at the most right now, usually 30 min. I dont know where you got "2yr of experience under saddle" from?


Firstly, I don't type "TyPe LYKE DIS". Nor, do I think you're a "OHEMGEE SUCH A BAD PERSON". 

Secondly, Your horse should know the go forward cue before putting spurs on, your horse doesn't. I've taken a horse that wouldn't load on a horse trailer for crap, worked with him for a day on just the forward cue, and after he didn't even hesitate, just walked right on. If you could apply that while riding then you would have no problem with your horse stopping. You said "once he stops you get after him", proving you're being a passive rider. You need to get after him wayyyyy before he even starts to hesitate to look outside. 

So he doesn't even have a full year of under the saddle training on him yet? I rest my case.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

White Foot, with all due respect, I don't think you're understanding what the OP is trying to tell you; I have spoken with her outside of this thread, and I hope she doesn't mind me stepping in with my two cents. I will address both this and the spur issue. 



White Foot said:


> Yes, they are good for a horse that is trained to give complete attention to he rider and is willing to work off the leg. Spurs are not meant to be used in the way she's using them, the horse should know the go forward cue before being ridden with spurs, and spurs aren't meant to teach the horse that. And I would have to question the "colt starters" you know, why would they do that? to skip over a critical part of training so they can get faster results?
> *I employ what I like to call my "Ask, Tell, Demand" method.
> First, you Ask nicely with light aids from your seat and leg (i.e. asking a horse to walk on, calf pressure) and a voice command if you would like.
> No response? Tell: Bump with your calf, get aggressive with the voice.
> ...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

White Foot said:


> Secondly, Your horse should know the go forward cue before putting spurs on, your horse doesn't. *You're misunderstanding the OP - the horse DOES know the "go forward" cue - but he gets completely stuck at the gate (where he can see and call to his buddies.) The OP asks him to go forwards, and he doesn't. She gets more aggressive with her aids, and he still doesn't respond, or he responds negatively. It's not that he doesn't understand, it's that something (herd-boundness) has over-ridden the rider's cues. * I've taken a horse that wouldn't load on a horse trailer for crap, worked with him for a day on just the forward cue, and after he didn't even hesitate, just walked right on. If you could apply that while riding then you would have no problem with your horse stopping. You said "once he stops you get after him", proving you're being a passive rider. You need to get after him wayyyyy before he even starts to hesitate to look outside. *Again, you're mis-reading. She does get after him and does anticipate the stop. The horse's natural instincts override her being in the saddle to a point where the OP doesn't know how to react. *
> 
> So he doesn't even have a full year of under the saddle training on him yet? I rest my case. *I'm not sure how this is relevant; I expect a horse under saddle for even a few weeks to understand my "ask, tell, demand" method to go forwards... *


Answers above


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

White Foot said:


> Would you ride a hot horse with spurs? :shock:
> 
> [/B]


Absolutely. Have, and will again. The thing is, the spurs are just there. When the rider is in correct position, the toes are forwards, so the spur is 100% unengaged. If the spur needs to be used, the rider must rotate the entire leg and bring the toe 45 degrees to the horse's side for it to even make contact.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> White Foot, with all due respect, I don't think you're understanding what the OP is trying to tell you; I have spoken with her outside of this thread, and I hope she doesn't mind me stepping in with my two cents. I will address both this and the spur issue.


I fully agree with that method, however if I'm reading correctly the horse doesn't even have a year of under saddle training. Do I even need to explain myself? or does everyone here completely agree with training a green, scared, confused, and hot horse with spurs incorrectly? I believe all she's doing to herself and her horse is making him dull to pressure. Why even start a horse with spurs? Even when used correctly? I believe that they should only be used as a last, last, resort. I'll say this again, I'm NOT against the use of spurs when used correctly!!! And I guess opinions will vary whether or not they are being used correctly, my opinion is they aren't. 

She said "once he stops I get after him" meaning she isn't being an active rider. I think being an active rider starts even before you get on your horse. It's funny that all the passive riders I've seen have horses that supposedly have the problem with stopping dead, but all the active riders I've seen haven't??:? 

Trainers do that, trainers with experience of breaking and starting horses...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

White Foot said:


> I fully agree with that method, however if I'm reading correctly the horse doesn't even have a year of under saddle training. Do I even need to explain myself? *This is where I get confused... if you wouldn't mind, yes, I would like you to explain so I might better know where you're coming from. The horse has huge issues getting "stuck" at the gate - his herd-boundness overrides the importance of the rider's aids. He KNOWS "go." He understands "go." The problem is that his herd-boundness is (in his mind) so much more important than Delete's aids that he ignores the basic signal for "go" as well as her getting after him. * or does everyone here completely agree with training a green, scared, confused, and hot horse with spurs incorrectly? *How do you know she's using them incorrectly? She is a fairly experienced rider that doesn't use the spurs willy-nilly. I believe she uses them like I described above - ask, tell, demand. * I believe all she's doing to herself and her horse is making him dull to pressure. Why even start a horse with spurs? Even when used correctly? *I don't understand... when used correctly, they are not being used UNLESS the horse hits the "demand" phase, so unless the horse's behavior warrants the "demand" phase, they aren't used at all. * I believe that they should only be used as a last, last, resort. I'll say this again, I'm NOT against the use of spurs when used correctly!!! And I guess opinions will vary whether or not they are being used correctly, my opinion is they aren't. *My point is that I think you might be jumping to conclusions that the OP doesn't know how to use spurs. In my experience with this poster, she does know, and wouldn't abuse them. *
> 
> She said "once he stops I get after him" meaning she isn't being an active rider. *It might have been miscommunication in one post made by Delete. I have spoken with her outside of the thread, and she does not wait for him to stop then go "bad boy!" She is very proactive. * I think being an active rider starts even before you get on your horse. It's funny that all the passive riders I've seen have horses that supposedly have the problem with stopping dead, but all the active riders I've seen haven't??:? *That's why Delete is here, asking a question. She has encountered a horse that does not respond to normal stimulus. He is so herd-bound that he will ignore intensifying riders' aids and act out against them. I have given all my advice to Delete that I can think of, outside of this thread - which wasn't much. Anything I came up with (ie. saddle fit, chiro, pain, being proactive about stopping) she had already tried.
> I am simply posting here because of misunderstanding in this thread. *
> ...


So, now that I've cleared things up, I hope... White Foot, do you have any training advice for a horse that has basic training, yet is so herd-bound that no matter how proactive Delete is in riding him past the gate, his instincts override her commands?


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## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

> She said "once he stops I get after him" meaning she isn't being an active rider. I think being an active rider starts even before you get on your horse.


How does that mean she's not being an active rider? That was a simple statement and she clarified later.

OP, I think from what I'm understanding, now that you know he has this problem with the gate, you anticipate it? (which is essentially what White_Foot is saying)

So, as you're coming towards the gate, turn him. I don't know if this gate is in the middle, in a corner, or what - but don't let him quite get TO it. Keep him bending much like Wild_Spot said. I would stay completely away from it, work the other side of the arena.

My loony mare can be extremely barn sour/buddy sour as well. She is highly highly bonded. When we are coming towards the barn and i know she's about to pull me that way (never fails, usually) I apply pressure with my outside leg and bend her into the turn way prior to where she usually tries to pull me towards the barn. She doesn't stop, she just tries to veer herself that way. I do use a crop, or at least have it on hand. I'll give her a tap behind my leg, as i'm applying pressure. Just enough to remind her that i have it, and it gives her a little extra reason to comply. "Hey, i'm up here, i want you to go THAT way, don't forget" 

I absolutely cannot stand and will not tolerate the screaming. Almost every single time we stop during a ride, she thinks she has to communicate with her friends by screaming like somebody is murdering her. As soon as she raises her head and i know it's coming, i move her forward and away from the barn. I'm hoping to eventually break her of that habit because it is extremely annoying, IMO. Back in the beginning, i would turn her away and make her stand facing the opposite way. She would prance, try to dance circles, etc. After lots of rinsing and repeating, she'll now stand quietly facing away from them, but i haven't been able to successfully break her from the screaming at them thing when she's facing towards them, even if they're not in sight.

I think the best thing for you to do here would be to go back to some ground work. Use the lunge line to its full potential. Work him by that gate in a small circle. Especially considering his behavior on the cross ties. Get that nipped in the bud now (the methods already mentioned should work). Take him for walks, the more time he spends with you without them, the more trusting he'll be when you're on his back.


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

*Oh now I don't agree with you at all.
*


White Foot said:


> I fully agree with that method, however if I'm reading correctly the horse doesn't even have a year of under saddle training. *What does that have to do with anything? My horse only has one year of training, and performs like a 6yr old. The amount of training doesn't mean they aren't ready for something. And yes I do use spurs on my young horses like "JustDressageIt" says it's about HOW you use them, not when.*Do I even need to explain myself? or does everyone here completely agree with training a green, scared *just because they are green doesn't mean they are scared*, confused, and hot horse with spurs incorrectly? *It doesn't sound like the OP has a scared confused or hot horse. He is just herd bound and the gate is where he can see his buddies.*I believe all she's doing to herself and her horse is making him dull to pressure. Why even start a horse with spurs? Even when used correctly? I believe that they should only be used as a last, last, resort. *Spurs are a great tool and if you use them correctly (and it sounds like she is) they are great. They are only used incorrectly if you are using them as punishment or all the time instead of using your legs and seat.*I'll say this again, I'm NOT against the use of spurs when used correctly!!! And I guess opinions will vary whether or not they are being used correctly, my opinion is they aren't.
> 
> She said "once he stops I get after him" meaning she isn't being an active rider. I think being an active rider starts even before you get on your horse. It's funny that all the passive riders I've seen have horses that supposedly have the problem with stopping dead, but all the active riders I've seen haven't??:? *She isn't a passive rider, she knows it's coming and starts asking him to move off before he hits the gate. It just intensifies at the gate because he stops listening to her. *
> 
> Trainers do that, trainers with experience of breaking and starting horses...


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

"no matter how much i pop him with the crop or use my spurs on him he stops and screams" This statement scares me, and I would get a professional trainer. It actually makes me want to vomit.. Do i even have to explain why?
White Foot i can tell you now you would be vomiting alot around me so. If i ask my horse nicely to do something that he UNDERSTANDS and he doesnt my god he will do it. He knows what i want he is being stubborn if the lead horse wants the herd to do something they will do it. And when he is with me i am his leader he obeys me when he knows what i want not when he chooses to. Delete does this situation only happen in the arena or can you hack out and go places on your own?
​


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Thank you guys for helping me, and clearing somethings up especially JDI. I appreciate it. WhiteFoot. I shall explain to you step by step when i am coming up on the gate, attempting to pass, and then eventually passing. Which btw i rode him today and he was much better. Still stoping every now and then at the gate, but a little better. Coming up on the the gate, "Push push push push", riding up onto the gate " push push push", he stops, i continue to push, eventually he goes off again. (Atleast today he went off without a fight) The days before he would rear and go into a fit. And so what if i start a horse with spurs? Just because you dont agree with it doesnt mean its wrong, i have been riding with spurs for atleast 6 years. (Since i broke my leg and have had lots of problems with it) They never come off my boots, i know how to ride without using my spurs with them sill being on my feet. I only use them for cues such as "go forward" ect ect. Im not using the spurs as punishment, im not "beating on him" with my spurs. Im simply giving pressure and or bumping. I find spurs to be very useful, like the other people who have posted on this thread, i know lots of people who start and finish horses with spurs, and havent any problem with them. To each is own WhiteFoot just because you dont agree with something doesnt make it wrong.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm glad that he is responding better and make sure that you reward the try. If he moves away from the gate then praise him and let him relax for a few seconds. Then ask him for something else. Keep his brain engaged but make him walking past the gate and listening to you a big deal. Since he's a bit of a nervous horse without your presence make sure you continute to talk to him and scratch and pat his withers and neck a lot to praise him.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

MaggiStar said:


> "no matter how much i pop him with the crop or use my spurs on him he stops and screams" This statement scares me, and I would get a  professional trainer. It actually makes me want to vomit.. Do i even have to explain why?
> White Foot i can tell you now you would be vomiting alot around me so. If i ask my horse nicely to do something that he UNDERSTANDS and he doesnt my god he will do it. He knows what i want he is being stubborn if the lead horse wants the herd to do something they will do it. And when he is with me i am his leader he obeys me when he knows what i want not when he chooses to. Delete does this situation only happen in the arena or can you hack out and go places on your own?
> ​


Ohno, this happens everywhere. If we are outside of an arena you can bet he is sidepassing, shouldering towards, backing towards, bolting towards, the other horses :-| If i give him any resistance he rears. Which i continue to ride threw it, after a nice big fight i try to end it on a good note. Such as, trotting away from the horses, without fighting me, something along those lines. He was better today like i said, i hope he continues to get better.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> I'm glad that he is responding better and make sure that you reward the try. If he moves away from the gate then praise him and let him relax for a few seconds. Then ask him for something else. Keep his brain engaged but make him walking past the gate and listening to you a big deal. Since he's a bit of a nervous horse without your presence make sure you continute to talk to him and scratch and pat his withers and neck a lot to praise him.


Ohyes better believe that i act like he just won world championships everytime he moves away from the gate xD I over exaggerate praise with him, seems to calm him more


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

After he is going ok in the ring by himself and the gate issue is resolved then I would get someone with a very steady horse and lead your horse from the ground up to the horse and then away from the horse. If he gets obnoxious do it with his bridle on or a chain over his nose. If he can't calmly leave the other horse then get him hustling on a lunge line in a 10 meter or so circle and have the other horse's handler move out of the way. Make it work to be near the other horse. Then you walk him away again. If he still acts like an idiot make him work again but if he walks away even if it's only half way across the arena then praise him and let him relax. Make the other horse's company not pleasant and your company relaxing and easy. Rinse, repeat. But you need two skilled handlers and a pretty easy going and unflappable horse to do this with.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Last night i went and rode again with my dad, and i had my friend with me who has trained a few horses himself. Dad would bring his horse over and take him away and repeat, Slick stood, he would watch the other horse like a hawk but stood still. But then again, he knows my dads horse. Its the horses he doesnt know that he freaks out about.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Alright, I have no idea what I'm talking about. Not a friggen clue  

I suppose it's a tad funny, only a little though! that some people come into training complaining about the same exact things she describes, but yet they don't have those problems when my boss rides? But then again he doesn't know what he's doing, has not a clue. 

Cheers! I wish you the luck with your horse and hopefully you two have a non-dull riding life.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I would use boarding to your advantage and walk him up and down the rows of stalls stopping and letting him see each horse and then keeping him moving. If he doesn't have good "horse skills" he might feel intimidated or fear-aggressive towards horses he doesn't know. The more horses you can introduce to him in a controlled environment with a positive outcome the better he will handle them in scarier situations.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

White Foot, there is no need to get defensive. I assumed you didn't understand the OP, so I cleared some stuff up. 
The OP's horse understands the "go forwards" cue, the OP is a proactive rider, therefore most of what you said earlier holds no water, as you advised those two things. Now that you know that the horse knows "go forwards" and you know now that the rider IS being proactive instead of waiting for the horse to stop, what is your advice?
Here's the situation in a very small nutshell: 
Horse is extremely herd-bound, and will stop at the gate to call to his friends. The OP knows this, so she is proactive and anticipates him stopping. As he nears the gate, she can feel him starting to balk and stop, so she reinforces the "go forwards" cue with the "ask" stage. No response, she moves to "tell." No response, she moves to "demand." Still no response, or she's met with a negative response. She intensifies the "demand" phase, and either gets no response or a more severe negative response. If he gives a positive response, he is rewarded. 
So, given this information, what would you advise? 
I am genuinely curious as I have no advice to offer Delete, as she has tried everything I've discussed with her.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

He also was standing better in the crossties, today aswell.


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Hi Delete 

I'm hesitant to get involved with all the aggressiveness in the thread and I can't claim to be any where near a trainer, but I have my own 17yrs of riding behind me and enough horse sense that maybe I can offer some help?

What are you doing for ground work with your guy? (working with him while not under-saddle)

I think you need to become his leader, the only thing in this world he looks to for guidance. Based on the herd-bound behaviour I'd say he's okay with you leading him until there are other horses around, then he thinks it might be better to either be a leader himself or find another horse to be his leader.

From everything I've ever read, and I've put this all to good use with my very dominant horse, to be a leader to a horse first and foremost you control where he goes, what he does and what he pays attention to.

Start on ground manners. You say he has problems in the cross-ties, this was a key turning point in my guy's 'obedience school'. Stand him in the cross ties to start but don't hook him up. Have him on a lead line and keep a good grip on it. Stand there and brush him or pat him until he starts to fidget. The thing you're going to try to do is to make him realize that he has to stand still exactly where you put him and he's not to move until you tell him (that includes just even the smallest movement of one hoof to a different spot). As soon as he moves back him up. Depending on his personality this could be a few steps or it could be 5, even 10 feet.... you want to get his attention. You want him riveted on you looking for you to say what it is you want. As soon as you've got his attention stop (release the pressure) and walk him forwards to where he was just standing. Go right back to brushing or doing what you were doing. If he moves again, repeat. Try not to let him get too fussed up. If he's getting anxious because of this new behaviour you're displaying, once you get him back to the cross ties again, get him to stand still for a solid moment and then go for a little walk and come back to it later. You want to make listening to you a good experience. You want to make moving where you didn't put him a bad experience. Once he's standing still through grooming on the ties start the same process for getting him used to you walking away a few feet but he still has to stand still.

If you can accomplish that alone you'll have a really good start to becoming a solid and unconditional leader for him, and what's more, you'll have his respect and it will go a long way toward overcoming his herd-bound behaviour.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Obviously I can't say she isn't being an active rider, and you can't assume. Doing and saying are two completely different things. This horse was sitting in a pasture for what 4 years of his life? Handling early on in life can make or break a horse. The longer it hasn't been handled, the harder and longer it will take to train (normally). So honestly I would suggest a professional. 

What would I suggest?: So far I see that the horse hasn't even had a year of saddle training, so he probably doesn't understand much and/or is confused. If she has a roundpen that would be ideal..

1) Don't get on the horses back until you have established dominance and respect. If you don't have that on the ground what makes anyone think they can have it while riding? Her horse needs to look for her for directions, not other horses.

2) If the gate is where the horse wants to stop then I wouldn't even ride around the gate, it's like bringing a kid who wants candy down the candy isle. If it's a problem then why would you want to bring the brat down that isle to begin with? Only when you have gotten his full attention at the other end of the arena should you work your way around and use the whole arena. 

When I get my horses attention I HAVE my horses attention. Meaning if he normally is deathly afraid of cats and a cat happens to walk infront of him, he won't even ***** an ear because he is so focused on me. 

3) If you're riding and he still wants to stop at the gate, increase leg pressure, and even if he takes one or two steps, release. That is a reward. He will realize that "oh if I take a step then this girl will give me a break" and everytime he does it make him take one more step, and one more step. Until sooner or later he walks through the whole thing without even blinking. 

4) Tie the horse in his stall until he realizes he isn't going anywhere until he is quiet. 

5) Introduce him to stand horses in the riding ring slowly and first by hand walking. Have someone (who's in control) ride around while you lead him around. If you have his FULL attention from the start it shouldn't be a problem. 

All it truly, really, boils down to is getting the horses respect and being the one in charge. Once you fix those problems, alot of the other problems will disappear.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Thank you RR! I will try that =]


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Thank you WhiteFoot, i will take what you say and put it to use.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Don't forget the 7 Games, Delete!*

Delete, what you've done* hasn't worked* (spurring & cropping) so you must *do something else*! Like, safely develop leadership on ground via 7 Games, wherein horse'll develop reliance upon *you* as his leader! Yes, I already said this, but I repeat myself for the horse's sake. I must add that Whitefoot's made valid points re: misuse of spurs, & in this case it's _been_ misuse because it* didn't work! *Also, take special care to listen to your* horse, who is your only true teacher*!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Northern said:


> Delete, what you've done* hasn't worked* (spurring & cropping) so you must *do something else*! Like, safely develop leadership on ground via 7 Games, wherein horse'll develop reliance upon *you* as his leader! Yes, I already said this, but I repeat myself for the horse's sake. I must add that Whitefoot's made valid points re: misuse of spurs, & in this case it's _been_ misuse because it* didn't work! *Also, take special care to listen to your* horse, who is your only true teacher*!


I disagree. Just because something didn't work does not mean it was misuse. Have you ever heard of practice makes perfect?

I also disagree with playing games with a thousand pound animal.


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

I agree with mls...and it is starting to work...delete. said that a few posts ago. He is improving slowly, that doesn't mean it isn't working.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Jeepers!! A gal goes to class for a couple of hours and the thread explodes!

Glad to hear that things are improving, Delete! Keep it up!


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Regarding the above opinions, Delete, I think they're getting off-base again, and more just statements of opinion than helpful advice.

Do you have a coach or trainer in the area that you can work with too? A few sessions with someone watching and helping to guide you through ground work and under-saddle sessions might add an extra perspective that we as commentators cannot give you!

Your main goal right now should be to become his leader. There's a lot of great material out there on how to gain a horse's respect through establishing your dominance and leadership abilities. The first step is always in controlling your horse's space - control what he does, when he does it and what he focuses on. The easiest place to start this and get him used to this change in your training methods is just to do it in the daily tasks you would have him do - i.e. standing in the cross-ties, coming in and out of his stall and paddock, walking around on the property.

*Maybe we can recommend some research for Delete to do on gaining respect?*

A book I really enjoyed was by Charles Wilhelm, it was simple and to the point and didn't have a whole lot of fuss or gimmicks about it. Amazon.com: Building Your Dream Horse: Charles Wilhelm's Ultimate Foundation Training (Howell Equestrian Library) (9780764579158): Charles Wilhelm, Allison Houston: Books

Hope that proves helpful.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Silvera said:


> I agree with mls...and it is starting to work...delete. said that a few posts ago. He is improving slowly, that doesn't mean it isn't working.


This. 
You're seeing improvement today, Delete - this is good!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Northern said:


> Delete, what you've done* hasn't worked* (spurring & cropping) so you must *do something else*! Like, safely develop leadership on ground via 7 Games, wherein horse'll develop reliance upon *you* as his leader! Yes, I already said this, but I repeat myself for the horse's sake. I must add that Whitefoot's made valid points re: misuse of spurs, & in this case it's _been_ misuse because it* didn't work! *Also, take special care to listen to your* horse, who is your only true teacher*!


I am being open minded and taking what *everyone* is saying into consideration and is going to give it a try even tho what i am doing is starting to work. I am going to try different things, i have said that. Northern it would help to read all the posts before you say something. 

Thanks again RR, i will look into that. I will let you all know how tomorrow goes, who knows maybe today was just a really good day and tomorrow might be totally different.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Doing the wrong thing with the horse isn't misuse?*

Of course, it is! Every second that the horse is not perceiving Delete as his leader, not getting what he needs to fix it, is misuse of the horse! Just call that "practice"?!:shock: We should listen to our horses so that we *stop* failing them,* asap*, because *they're* the ones who suffer our wrong moves! A true horseman has paid his dues to the *horse as teacher* & knows what to do & why to do it. I hope, Delete, that you'll tell us what transpires with your horse.:-(


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Northern said:


> Of course, it is! Every second that the horse is not perceiving Delete as his leader, not getting what he needs to fix it, is misuse of the horse! Just call that "practice"?!:shock: We should listen to our horses so that we *stop* failing them,* asap*, because *they're* the ones who suffer our wrong moves! A true horseman has paid his dues to the *horse as teacher* & knows what to do & why to do it. I hope, Delete, that you'll tell us what transpires with your horse.:-(


Heaven forbid it takes time for such things.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*A perfectly logical request stupifies you? But on to my intended message:*

Re: whether you're "horrible" because you're out-of-sync with your horse: this is about your* horse's* opinion of you, is it not? What does it matter if I call you *"fabulous!" *if your horse still doesn't think so? Here is an old truism that serves the issue well: * Show me your horse and I will tell you what you are. *Delete, I now leave you to hopefully become your horse's best friend; I have nothing further to say on the subject.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

"Show me your horse and I will tell you what you are" what an absolutely fabulous saying Northern, I love it! Interesting thread, people are obviously feeling fiesty. I have to agree with the whole getting respect and becoming the leader in your horses eyes. I thoroughly enjoyed Royalrebel (?)-RR- post and I couldn't agree more. 

Something that Buck Brannaman said at a clinic that really struck me and has really decided how I work with my horse is that you should think of each leg of your horse as an extention of your own. You should be able to move each foot of your horse as if it is your own. I have that in my head all the time now, I am like RR everytime I am with my horse I am conscious of her body and make sure that she places it where I want it. When I open a gate from the ground it is my horses job to walk around me so I don't have to move ( if you know what I mean). When I groom Phoenny I move her so I can reach the next bit to brush. When she moves where I don't want her I firmly put back where I want her and if she doesn't stay where I place her then I make moving uncomfortable for her. When it comes to my horse I am absolutely in charge of every move she makes, she knows it and life is good. She is five and has been under saddle for 17 months. We ride on our own or with one, two or three others and have done some large group treks with 70 odd other horses and she never behaves any differently. I am the leader, but I have made a conscious decision to be her leader and I am always consistent, if she moves out of turn I put her back where I want her.


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Love it kiwi! That's the sort of thing Delete's guy is looking for. Once you establish that kind of control of your horses space you then have his respect and he will look to you for instruction in all that you do. Delete disregard the foolishness of the opinionated people. You came here looking for some ideas on where to start dealing with your horse's herd bound issues and why people feel the need to rant and go off on personal vendettas about certain issues is beyond me...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

...To make an opinion known and offer some objective advice is on thing. To defend your opinion so vehemently that you end up arguing minute and refuse to accept that others may have differing opinions and totally veer off the point of the thread - offering helpful advice is another. Delete please keep us up to date! Would love to hear about your progress and keep an informative running dialogue on dealing with a herd-bound horse! ps sorry for 2 posts and weird typing, on the cell. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I plan on updating you all on tomorrows ride, which i pray is just as good or better as todays ride. Thanks all!


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## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

As for the crossties... why can't he just stand tied? I don't think there is anything wrong with tying a horse securely and leaving him there a few hours until he calms down, stops pulling back etc. The only way they will learn is if they fight it and lose IMO.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I have done that, and have been doing that. That is how i taught him to tie to begin with.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I'll re-iterate what I said in the other thread - When a horse is cnfused, or scared, or stressed, or worried, or generally just not paying attention, your best bet is to go back to the *first thing they learned*. With Latte, that is yeilding her head laterally. Going back to the first thing they learnt is putting the horse in a situation they know - They know what to do, they know thay can do it, they know it brings a reward - Knowing what to do and hwo to do it puts a horse back into it's comfort zone.

What were the first things you did with him? What were the first lessons that he really took to and excelled in?

I personally don't like to 'fabricate' situations with my horses - So with Latte, who is also herd bound, I don't contrive situations where she is purposefully left alone. In fact, I didn't do anything with her by herself until a few weeks ago. My reasoning? I want to have as much control and as clear communication I can get with her before putting her in a situation I am already aware will be stressful. I want to find bumps and hiccups and deal with them in a safe environment before I do the same in an environment where she feels unsure. Little steps.

Our first real work without the other horses was a little while ago - We had to move some cattle across a creek. I stayed on this side and the others took the cattle where they needed to go. She scooted her but under, tossed her head, whinnied, and attempted to shoot off after them. Straight away I yeilded her head around, inside leg on to disengage that hind, and straight into a tiny figure eight where she had to concentrate on changing her bend.

Bending is fantastic - It is very hard for a horse with a true bend through its body to rear or buck. It is impossible for a horse with a bend through its body and a disengaged hindquarter to rear or buck.

Hence, if you haven't already, I would teach him disengagement of the hindquarters. *Note - I am NOT a fan of the one rein stop - I use the bend to lower adrenalin and disengage the hind to avoid any airs above the ground - But I translate it straight into circles. I do not like using the bend to stop my horses feet, as in the future, I want to maintain the bend while the feet are moving* I started Latte on this on the ground, bending her head toward me, then using my hand like my inside leg and disengaging her hind. I then translated it to the saddle.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I've been following this thread & I agree with most things said by RR & Silvera. The only thing I might add is you may want to consider riding with a halter & long lead rope on for a little while. If the horse isn't listen to you in the saddle then you can get off & lunge him right then & there. That just my 2 cents, and I'm no trainer, but that seemed to work with my 5 year old when I first got her.
Its seems that he is settling out though. May the progress continue.


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

I dont know if you would approve or have the facilites to do this. But i have a little needy pony who feels he essentially will dies if he is not touching another horse at all times. Every morning for 4hours i move my little guy to a field all on his own he can still kind of see the other horses and call to them but not touch them. Im the one who comes in every now and then with nice things ie treats , company etc. Obviously the first time you remove the herd is horrendously traumatising for them but they must learn to deal with the situation on there own. He is becoming more independent after just a week no longer screaming and charging around as he knows the herd will return. It is always the same field i out him on his own and no-one else can go there so essentially it is just his learning area like the arena.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm sorry about getting so defensive yesterday, we ended up putting my mare down and I handled my stress wrong. Blah.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-memorials/labre-rest-peace-53756/#post617898


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Sorry to hear it White Foot read your bit in horse memorials at least she thought you stuff that now you can pass on to other members


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

WhiteFoot, I'm so sorry to hear! The most wonderful quality of an animal is their ability to forgive, and love despite wrong-doings. I bet she loves you every bit as much as you loved her and then more. The things she taught you will last a lifetime and your ability to perceive the wonderful value of that knowledge is a true gift. I hope you might find solace in knowing she is happier now that she is out of pain. Wishing you all the best, Amy


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

.Delete. said:


> Heaven forbid it takes time for such things.


Exactly.

Your initial post said "recently moved". I don't know if that means 2 hours, 2 days or 2 weeks. Some horses take a while to settle into a new situation. His 'bed' is different, his buddies, routine, etc. As is yours .Delete. You are both adjusting.

Time and patience will be your best tools!


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

White Foot said:


> I'm sorry about getting so defensive yesterday, we ended up putting my mare down and I handled my stress wrong. Blah.


I'm sorry you had to go through that. It's hard to have to make those kind of decisions. I know our horses become like our kids and to see them in pain just kills us. Again sorry for your lose


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I am very sorry for your loss WhiteFoot. Completely understandable why you were stressed.

Update for today: He was pretty much just like yesturday, moving passed the gate better, less dancing in the crossties, standing while i mount. But then again i am riding alone, as soon as my boss took 2 little ponies by he started up again, no rearing (he was in the crossties) just dancing and screaming. Once they were out of sight he calmed back down. That was about as bad as it got today, when the ponies walked passed.


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

Well that sounds good!! Looks like you are well on your way to getting this fixed  Good luck


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

That's really good Delete! Keep with him and keep trying to make him see you as a leader. 

I don't know if you ever did answer this, but is there a trainer in your area you could work with? You don't have to have him/her necessarily train your horse with you but you could schedule the occasional time for them to come out and watch and help give you pointers on things you could do. We can only offer suggestions based on what you tell us but not seeing the horse and his behaviour ourselves we can only guess what the underlying issues are. There may be things you aren't seeing that you then can't tell us about that a trainer standing there would pick up on and could give you the "ahhhh" breakthrough piece of information, you know?

_There are things we know we know, things we know we don't know and things we don't know we don't know_...... It's the things you don't know that you don't know that get you when you're working with horses and why even the most experienced people do well to work with someone who's been around a bit longer or done a bit more than we have. 

Keep up the good work!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I hope he keeps improving, but i need to introduce a horse he doesnt know, my boss has a really well broke 24yr old Horsemanship gelding that im sure would be perfect for this sort of thing, im going to ask her to help me with this.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

RoyalsRebel said:


> That's really good Delete! Keep with him and keep trying to make him see you as a leader.
> 
> I don't know if you ever did answer this, but is there a trainer in your area you could work with? You don't have to have him/her necessarily train your horse with you but you could schedule the occasional time for them to come out and watch and help give you pointers on things you could do. We can only offer suggestions based on what you tell us but not seeing the horse and his behaviour ourselves we can only guess what the underlying issues are. There may be things you aren't seeing that you then can't tell us about that a trainer standing there would pick up on and could give you the "ahhhh" breakthrough piece of information, you know?
> 
> ...


I have several trainers available to me. If worst comes to worst, i will certainly go to one for help.


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

It probably wouldn't cost you much to have one out for a "lesson" type of set up.... just have them there for an hour while you bring your guy in and do your regular routine. $40 for even one helpful idea might save you a lot of energy.

JMO though


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

RoyalsRebel said:


> It probably wouldn't cost you much to have one out for a "lesson" type of set up.... just have them there for an hour while you bring your guy in and do your regular routine. $40 for even one helpful idea might save you a lot of energy.
> 
> JMO though


The guys round here have sticks up their butts, i gotta haul to them. And its about 50$ and up for an hour lesson


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Oh, that's not what you want then. You want someone to be able to come to your barn and spend an hour with you as you go through your routine. If you can find someone that can do that with you then that would be ideal.

Keep us updated!!


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

That really isn't to bad though, lots of the higher end trainers (that have been doing it for a long time) don't come to you. I go to people just because I'm still newer to the training world and need to make a name for myself. My old boss doesn't come to you and she charges $50 for an hour as well, but it is SOOO worth it. I like to go for thoses little occasional lessons even if I'm not having troubles. It really helps because they have more options in their arsonal then I do.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Sounds like you are making progress. Good job.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Maybe you could talk to people at your barn & see if anyone is interested in a clinic. Then approach the trainer & see if they will come out if there is more than one person to train. We've done that before at our place. Plus you would be working with other horses in the arena which seems to be the problem.
It sounds though like your horse is probably just nervous in the new place & this will work itself out over time.


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## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Good luck


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Thank you


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