# Throwing head while tacking up



## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

So yeasterday I attempted to tack up Chase and go for my first ride on him. However I tied him to the fence and once I put the saddle on he threw his head up so many times the lead rope broke. I tried to tie him again with a new lead rope and he did it again but I got him to calm down. 

He also won’t stay still while tied up. He walked back and forth and paws at the ground... help anyone??


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh dear.....again, you need someone helping you right there, hands on so they can see what is happening. So many things....

Do you have a stall you can tie in? Tying a horse who pulls back to a fence scares me.

Get him somewhere more manageable, and have someone help, because now he has learned he has the upper hand over you, you do not want to lose another round.


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## MyChestnutMare (Aug 20, 2018)

is he in pain?


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Learned pain response, either current or past. Make sure his back isn't sore, no ulcers (chiro and vet). I wouldn't even ride until you can tack him up with him relaxed. If he's not relax to tack he won't be relaxed to ride. 

Start with just the saddle pad. Make sure the saddle fits. Put it on, take it off. When you place the saddle on, place it gently. He's a TB, right? They are often very sensitive in their backs, even when not back sore. You might need to hand walk him before you can on.

Work on getting him to stand relaxed for grooming first, then move on to tacking. Ground work. Lower his anxiety.

Have you thought about getting a different trainer?


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## Anonhorse (Dec 2, 2018)

My horse has the same problem sometimes!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

In general, if you run into something your horse doesn't know how to do at all, you need to take your demands down to something that the horse does know, and then rebuild his skills tiny step by tiny step to where you want it.

In your case, it seems there is a problem with tacking while tied. Does he tie okay? Can you move around him and be busy without him getting nervous? Can you flutter the saddle pad and he doesn't mind? What happens if you show him the saddle, just pretend you will swing the saddle on his back, etc. etc. Find the exact point where things break down, then make sure it's a training issue and not a medical one, then work on that.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with mmshiro's reply. 

The thing that concerns me is that you intended to ride a horse that is in poor condition according to your previous posts and most importantly I hope that you were not on your own.

I can understand you being desperate to ride your own first horse but please put safety first.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

What does Chase do if you are just grooming him?
Do you do this "tied" or with lead shank in your hand or draped over something?
Have you cross-tied him before and was he good or did he react the same way...paw, pull-back, head tossing?


So many things it could be and so many things that need to be checked first on a new horse with a past that is not truly known about with regard to behaviors, good or bad...

A tack check for proper fitting saddle...
Does it sit down or pinch?
Does it have a bump underneath that pierces the back with discomfort?
Was your saddle pad flat under the saddle but "tented" at the wither so it not pull tight and cause pain when girthed up?

Has anyone truly checked the teeth and mouth for sores or rough edges anyplace?
Has anyone looked at the bridle for correct fit?
Is the bit of good quality with no rough edges, to small for the mouth or to wide a barrel for the tooth groove?
Is the bridle properly fitted and is it a fit the horse is comfortable with?
Has anyone checked the poll area for bumps, cuts or soreness?

Could you talk to the old owner, you made mention of knowing each other and being friends?
Why not ask if the past owner had the same issues or not concerning the horse?
Tidbits of information shared will make the transition to your ownership a lot smoother....

I do have to agree though that you need to be safe first and foremost with this horse.
He's not Justice in temperament is a fact.
He sounds sensitive and a lot more horse for you to ride and handle = slow down and work with knowledgeable eyes watching the first few rides you do so hopefully nothing bad happens to you nor you teach bad behaviors.
Always wear that helmet when astride and honestly now you know the horse has some issues of standing quiet I would suggest as you learn more about this animal you wear that helmet to protect your head just in case...a horse swinging their head or neck, wiggling their body can bump you and truly hurt you badly...be careful please.
You have some investigating to do about many things yet...it takes time, months to learn a new horse and behaviors continually change as we allow...
I would be making a phone call first though to the past owner and asking questions...
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo.._


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

If the lead rope is breaking he is not just flinging or raising his head, he is _pulling back_.

This is a whole different problem, and one that in my opinion is often a lot more difficult to cure. You definitely should NOT be trying to fix this on your own, as it is a dangerous habit which can injure the horse. If the lead rope doesn't break and instead he pulls down a fence, or the wall of the barn, you may have an epic disaster on your hands. Once a horse has experienced the "release" of a successful breakaway they will typically try it again. 

You need to work with a GOOD trainer on this. It does sound like he is afraid of "what will happen next", which means he needs a real go-slow approach.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

While I agree that you should always rule out pain - You have to remember you are dealing with an OTTB.

TB's when trained for races don't spend alot of time on ground manners. That means this horse probably hasn't spent a ton of time being tied. He's used to having a saddle slapped on his back and a jockey tossed on.

Do you know what amount of re-training he has been through? If you do not know the level of time that has been spent on him, my suggestion would be to go back to the basics. Work on the ground - I know you've done a ton of ground work with Justice so you should have enough skill-sets to go back to the basics. I would work him on the ground and then when you have finished I would tie him while you are there to watch. I'd leave him tied for 15 - 30 minutes a day while you clean stalls or put away tack. 

Again - I agree with checking your tack fit and ruling out pain but what you are describing is basic OTTB behavior.

PS - I have a horse that learned to break his lead line. It's a terrible habit and once they figure it out - it takes a lot of work to undo it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Now he's learnt that he can pull back and get away he'll keep on doing it until he's tied with something that won't break and won't 'give' to his pressure
Its no point tying a horse to a fence with a chain if it then pulls the fence rail out.


Your safest option is to take things slowly and treat the horse as if he's learning everything for the first time. 
He has to learn to stand still while being groomed to start with and you might find it easier to do that if you have him in a stall or similar confined area and start out 'small', gradually increasing the amount of time he's got to stand still.
You'd be safer to use a lunging surcingle and focus on ground work including lunge work before you even think about riding him
He should be checked over to rule out pain but I think he's just objecting to being asked to work again


This sounds like a horse that needs to be with someone a lot more experienced than you currently are until he's got his head back where it should be


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Now he's learnt that he can pull back and get away he'll keep on doing it until he's tied with something that won't break and won't 'give' to his pressure
Its no point tying a horse to a fence with a chain if it then pulls the fence rail out.


Your safest option is to take things slowly and treat the horse as if he's learning everything for the first time. 
He has to learn to stand still while being groomed to start with and you might find it easier to do that if you have him in a stall or similar confined area and start out 'small', gradually increasing the amount of time he's got to stand still.
You'd be safer to use a lunging surcingle and focus on ground work including lunge work before you even think about riding him
He should be checked over to rule out pain but I think he's just objecting to being asked to work again


This sounds like a horse that needs to be with someone a lot more experienced than you currently are until he's got his head back where it should be


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> So yeasterday I attempted to tack up Chase and go for my first ride on him. However I tied him to the fence and once I put the saddle on he threw his head up so many times the lead rope broke.



I have never seen a horse break a lead rope by "throwing their head". However, it can happen if they REAR or PULL BACK. 



So can you be more clear on exactly what happened? Did he pull? Did he rear?




LydiaAndJustice said:


> He also won’t stay still while tied up. He walked back and forth and paws at the ground... help anyone??



How old is Chase? Is he another one of your trainer's horses?


Overall, he sounds very nervous and anxious and most likely has had these issues for quite some time. It sounds like he would do well with some ground work excerises to teach him to give to pressure (so he doesn't break any more lead ropes) and to teach him some patience.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> TB's when trained for races don't spend alot of time on ground manners. That means this horse probably hasn't spent a ton of time being tied.


True, ground *manners* are often overlooked but tying up... ime racehorses are VERY used to tying up. They get tied to snub posts, trees, whatever, with unbreakable ropes & collars (oft ime a stretchy inner tube from a car tyre) from quite young. They are tied for the farrier, tied for saddling, tied in trucks/trailers, cross tied in tie stalls waiting for a race/exercise at the track...

So... for a seasoned OTTB to start pulling back, I'd think something has gone very wrong.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

@beau159 LydiaAndJustice rescued him barely a week ago from a starvation situation - although he looks good. As far as I've read no one has seen him being ridden, either...



As for the horse breaking TWO lead ropes is scary impressive. I was thinking about it.. would a horse that does this more likely to rear and flip to escape the bit when ridden? 



I am concerned for your safety, absolutely. As his rescuer (your words) you have a duty to look after his physical and mental wellbeing first before indulging in your ridden hobby. You've barely had him a week and you're strangers to each other. This horse will teach you a lot and will show you just how inexperienced you are and I sincerely hope the price for these lessons do not cost you injury or your life. I have no problem with you learning how to work with a rescue OTTB but it's not something you should do alone first time round.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

You need someone experienced with you when you work with this horse for awhile. And sorry, but from what you write, that does not include the people you currently are working with/trainers. Someone who can read if this is a pain response or an evasion, and help you work through it. I would absolutely NOT ride this horse right now.


With no background on this horse, you need to start from the very basics and treat him like an unbroke colt-- look for the holes and address them before you go on to the next step. If she couldn't rehome this horse before he got to the 'please take him' standpoint, there was likely a reason. You are starting to see the reasons. They may be fixable, they may not, but I'd start with assuming this horse has ulcers and a pain issue and going from there. 



A horse does not break a lead rope tossing his head. He does it rearing or pulling back--- VERY different, and potentially very difficult and hard to fix. You need help before you get hurt.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Tbf, I have had a horse toss his head and break a rope. It just happened to be a poorly kept lead rope that was on it's last leg.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ApuetsoT said:


> Tbf, I have had a horse toss his head and break a rope. It just happened to be a poorly kept lead rope that was on it's last leg.


Absolutely that sort of thing can happen to anyone...


Difference is if you have a horse that breaks away once I bet you double check rope, halter, clip, knot etc, because you know that if a horse breaks away twice in a row he has ingained that habit....

You can spend a summer trying to get a decent leg yield....break a rope twice they have it down pat!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> Absolutely that sort of thing can happen to anyone...
> 
> 
> Difference is if you have a horse that breaks away once I bet you double check rope, halter, clip, knot etc, because you know that if a horse breaks away twice in a row he has ingained that habit....
> ...


Guess I didn't really read that he broke the rope twice. I read it as he was just bopping around again the second time.

Not that it really matters, it's the least of the problems here. Breaking the rope is just a symptom.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

ApuetsoT said:


> Guess I didn't really read that he broke the rope twice. I read it as he was just bopping around again the second time.
> 
> Not that it really matters, it's the least of the problems here. Breaking the rope is just a symptom.


Yep in ops post it said he broke first rope then broke the second rope. my guess he's pulling back and that is hard habit to break them of. Got a pull back break ropes boy and it's been a hard habit to correct...


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

With respect and kindness...

Since you were planning on buying a horse, but then were given this horse, my advice is to take the money you had set aside to buy a horse and find a professional trainer to put 30 or 60 days training on this horse. I am very afraid that you are dangerously in over your head and that your trainer is not qualified to help this horse and keep you both safe. Well trained, sound horses are generally not given away for free. 

Every novice rider, in fact most novice to intermediate riders, are not able to train a horse. Every barn or rescue owner, every riding instructor, is not a competent trainer, particularly when it comes to horses with ingrained dangerous habits like pulling back hard enough to break leadropes. 

Having leased a horse that pulled back due to a tying injury/trauma, the first thing you need to do is stop tying him up hard until you figure this out so he doesn't hurt himself, you, or another horse or rider. If he can't stand tied for tacking without exploding, you have no business trying to ride him. Please get professional help.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

loosie said:


> True, ground *manners* are often overlooked but tying up... ime racehorses are VERY used to tying up. They get tied to snub posts, trees, whatever, with unbreakable ropes & collars (oft ime a stretchy inner tube from a car tyre) from quite young. They are tied for the farrier, tied for saddling, tied in trucks/trailers, cross tied in tie stalls waiting for a race/exercise at the track...
> 
> So... for a seasoned OTTB to start pulling back, I'd think something has gone very wrong.


Not at the racing barn I worked at. Although the ones I worked with did have good manners.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

I'm sorry my orginal post sounded confusing, he did not break the second lead rope he broke the first and then when I tied him up with my backup he started doing it again but I got him to calm down simply by walking him forwards. 

The farrier came out yesterday and he has been working with horses for over 2 decades. Very smart man and he taught me a lot about this horse. First of all, he does not believe that they gave me the correct horse, he does not think this is the horse that had 14 starts and is 9 years old. He has not one racing injury or sign of any previous racing injuries, he also said that at the most, he is 7 years old. He know the girl that gave him to me and he has seen this Chase before and he likes him.

The thing that scared me is he said the name of some drug that calms horses for 30 days. He said she could have been trying to sell him for a while and couldn't get rid of him so she drugged him and dumped him with me. Basically, he thinks I shouldn't invest anything else into this horse until 30 days is up and we see how he acts then. He said its not for sure but he has never seen an ottb in his entire life that was this calm and non spooky. A feed bag blew into Chase while he was getting his feet done and he just stood there. Farrier said that its not a definate because all of his muscles reacted correctly when he ran his finger along them which apprently doesn't happen with the drug but I should just keep my eyes open. 

He also taught me how to use the chain around his nose to teach him to respect me and pay attention to what I was asking of him. He was a pretty cool guy and I learned a lot from him during his one visit. 

P.s. I will post this section in the journal aswell to keep everyone updated.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I don’t know how many TB’s your farrier has known, but it is not my experience that they are all spooky or flighty. Hot, maybe, high energy yes, but that doesn’t mean spooky. Think about the life they lead, they are used to noise, movement, all sorts of distractions.

So how many horses did this lady have? In you original post about Chase you said you knew him from before, so how could you have the wrong horse?

A person who was not giving the horse water or farrier care, as per your post would be unlikely to be drugging a horse....this is not making a lot of sense to me.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I find ottbs to be brave, more than spooky. Think about, they've been exposed to a lot very young. They just usually end up with too much energy and poor handling, so their energy end up coming out in spooks.

I dont think chase has been drugged I think he's a younger otto who doesn't have a job and hasn't been handled right. I would not suggest you use a chain on him, especially DO NOT tie him with the chain. There's more skill to using a chain than just yanking on it, you can do a lot of damage with it.

Cross tie him for now if you can. Ottbs often are cross tied rather than tied to a single point. He also can't pull as easily.

I'll mention finding a new, better trainer again...


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

ApuetsoT said:


> I'll mention finding a new, better trainer again...



This. So much this. You are in over your head and your current trainer situation is not conducive to learning rather than being hurt by your new horse. I agree with the poster above who suggested taking the money you have saved for a horse purchase and sending this horse to a trainer (a good one, not the cheapest one out there) and then taking lessons with the trainer so you both can learn together-- then re-evaluate if this horse fits your current skill level or if he'd be better off sold and a more suitable horse purchased. You need someone who knows what they are doing to find out what this horse knows and doesn't know, and to make sure he's not sore. This is one of those instances where it's cheaper in the long run to spend the money.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> has not one racing injury ...at the most, he is 7 years old.


I thought this horse was a 'rescue'? Very fishy if you were intentionally given a horse thats supposed to be another! But Ottbs don't always have injuries. And they are ALWAYS branded ime, so you'd know the year of his birth. And youd be able to look up his racing history. Don't purebred TB's for racing always get branded over there?

As for spookiness, if he was such a successful racehorse, he will have had lots of chances for desensitization, may also be 'learned helplessness' to some degree & if been off racehorse fuel for a while, may be quite calm - not all racehorses are reactive nuts.



> He know the girl that gave him to me


If he knows her & said this, must have good reason to suspect... or he has something against her...



> He also taught me how to use the chain around his nose to teach him to respect me


I'd NOT advise you use a chain over the horse's nose to force him generally (not what I'd call 'respect' either, if it can be forced).


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Jockey club tbs are lip tattooed. If he'll let you take a picture of the inside of his upper lip. It'll tell you who he is and how old he is though the Jocky Club site.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Is that a certain classification/area of racing? If said farrier is so sure he was 7yo, then he must have been able to have a good look in the horse's mouth already. If he knows so much about racehorses, you'd think he'd know about lip tattoos...


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Lydia....
I'm not going to go off on you, ridicule you or make accusations.
I'm just going to share some information with you you might not be aware of....

If Chase is really a "Off-Track Thoroughbred" who ran, raced or was at any racetrack in the United States he must be lip tattooed according to the Jockey Club and their rules governing horses and racetracks.
To see that number you ask someone to rollhis upper lip while you write the information down...if your vet has indeed seen the horse, on your paperwork he may have made the notation of that number identifying this horse.
Much of his past including his breeding, his races and how he finished you can find out information about.
You will not get his registration papers if his were surrendered to save his life.
He also could of raced and been retired perfectly sound, no injuries...he just might not have the personality to race and win...hence "quiet"...

He can be a Thoroughbred but never stepped a foot on the track, only did train at the farm in which case he might not be tattooed yet.
You may have a decent farrier but he is giving you wrong information if he tells you OTTB are not quiet..he just obviously has not been in much contact with them.
I've handled many OTTB some who were quiet, some were high-energy and some were absolutely crazy...._horses come in all packages._

The girl you got him from I thought you knew as a friend...
Do you really think your friend would "sell" you a horse who would hurt you? Think about that...

Now, as for using a chain over the nose...
Because you were shown does not mean you know how...
There is a art to correct use and used incorrectly the damage you could do to the horse is beyond anything you ever want to know about...
Chains can be very cruel and they can also be a great tool in the right learned hands...be very careful what you think you know and what you do truly know so you not get hurt.
Racehorses also know chains on the face...and they know how to rear and strike in a instant in retaliation, tear into you with their teeth in reaction and kick the crap out of you all because of a chain...know what you are doing and who those teachings really came from ....
Honestly, from how your farrier grouped OTTB together does not leave me with a good feeling about this persons handling or knowledge skills.
The drugging part truly disturbs me, and you as it should.
Call your vet and see what they say about such a claim....valid or a bunch of hooey nonsense to scare you IDK.
If you really think it is possible, have the vets come do blood-work or a urinalysis cause it should show.
Those kind of drugs...long acting leave evidence behind.

Now, you said originally you were going to see how things went with Chase...
He might stay and he might go..._remember those words Lydia..._
The most important thing is that you are safe with this horse, handling, taking care and riding it.
If you ever have a doubt, stay off and away till you get it sorted out for your safety..._*please.*_
:runninghorse2:...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

horselovinguy said:


> If Chase is really a "Off-Track Thoroughbred" who ran, raced or was at any racetrack in the United States he must be lip tattooed according to the Jockey Club


Ah, so that's just the 'American Way' with racers. Pardon. Over here they are branded on the shoulders as per usual(I thought) - on the right is one number over another single digit - first is the 'nth' foal of the year for that stud, second is the year of the decade, so you'd know if he were 7 or 17 or 27... Standies that have raced have freeze brands on their neck.



> The girl you got him from I thought you knew as a friend...
> Do you really think your friend would "sell" you a horse who would hurt you? Think about that...


In the other thread(Emergency rescue) it is explained that Lydia's friend previously sold the horse to this woman Lydia got him from. Farrier's story just sounds... interesting. He knows the woman, knows the horse & likes him, suspects him of being a different one, different age to who Lydia thinks & says horse may be drugged because he's not spooky....?? As for different horse, facial markings aren't fully clear but appear that he's probably same horse, even if it can't be proved with branding.



> Racehorses also know chains on the face...and they know how to rear and strike in a instant in retaliation, tear into you with their teeth in reaction and kick the crap out of you all because of a chain...


Yep, know a couple like that. One was a pretty good racehorse apparently, but due to his 'retaliation' against harsh handling, he'd tried to kill so many strappers that everyone refused to deal with him so he was sold to the doggers, saved by a skilled woman who (mostly) got him over his fear aggression... until a strange man would come onto the property, then it was LOOK OUT!!

Lydia have you had the vet to him yet? They should be able to give you some more reputable info about what you've been told by the farrier.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

loosie said:


> ^Is that a certain classification/area of racing? If said farrier is so sure he was 7yo, then he must have been able to have a good look in the horse's mouth already. If he knows so much about racehorses, you'd think he'd know about lip tattoos...


We did see the lip tattoo and we took a picture, I'll text my trainer now to send it to me. We know hes a racehorse, we don't know if he's the racehorse we thought he was, which is Powerlope. As soon as I get the picture I'll look it up and see if the tattoo matches his name. We think that he got mixed up when my friend orginally bought him years ago, the place he was at was known to have many different ottbs. I don't think the story about him being switched around is correct, he's coggins have pictures of him and have all of his info and they identified him as Powerlope so I hope that means something.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

My orginal plan was to get the vet out to see him the day he got to me, however she had no openings until two weeks from now :/


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Equibase & Pedigree Queery say Powerlope is a 9 year old stallion: https://www.horseracingnation.com/horse/Powerlope or https://www.pedigreequery.com/powerlope


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Does anyone know what the tattoo says? I can’t make it out


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

M3089? That makes him 9. Other was H, but that'd make him 14.

Can't run those numbers at the moment, but that's my guess.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Looks like an H on the letter part of tattoo. Doesn't look like a M to me.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Looks like an H to me as well











Even playing with it, can’t make it an M


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

That's an H, pretty sure of it.


Also, just been rolling this around in my head... 

I've had horses set back on me before. Sally is notorious for it, just because she's a pig headed old mare. Superman got spooked once while waiting his turn for the farrier, not sure what set him off, but he threw himself back hard enough he fell down. Sarge has set back hard enough to slip in the wet grass... and fall down... at a rodeo (Because he's a big tiddy baby and was all alone), Oops has done it while saddling up.

Not one of them has ever broken a lead rope.

They've choked themselves OUT and I've had to CUT the rope (Superman once, Sarge at the rodeo) and get them up on their feet. Oops and Sally both whacked their heads on the steel post hard enough they learned to not do it again - and I gave them the room to be stupid and not get myself hurt when they did it.

GINA has broken a rope ONCE. She broke a SPLICED/repaired lead rope (The one I cut at the rodeo when Sarge set back and fell down in the wet grass), to track us on a trail ride when she realized she was left alone back at camp at the hi-line.

Either you have some really crappy old lead ropes, or this horse is doing more than tossing his head. Again, Sarge clocks in at about 1200 lbs and with his full pull he couldn't break a lead rope - I had to cut it to get him off the ground.

Which tells me something is bad, bad wrong, OR there's a miscommunication on exactly what's happening.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Here's the info i found.

Tattoo is H30891 Name is Swiss Swiffer 2004 chestnut Gelding/ Dam Silver Sonata

There is a number after the 9 which looks to be a 1 with just H3089 it is a incomplete tattoo. I looked at picture again and looks like there is a number 1 after the 9.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Here's the report showing the info.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Swiss Swiffer does not show up on HRN or Allbreed.....


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## CharlotteThePenguin (Apr 2, 2016)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I've had horses set back on me before. Sally is notorious for it, just because she's a pig headed old mare. Superman got spooked once while waiting his turn for the farrier, not sure what set him off, but he threw himself back hard enough he fell down. Sarge has set back hard enough to slip in the wet grass... and fall down... at a rodeo (Because he's a big tiddy baby and was all alone), Oops has done it while saddling up.
> 
> Not one of them has ever broken a lead rope.


My mare set back once and the metal clip broke. The part that moves up and down (I have no idea what it's called) to clip it on and off broke. The rope itself didn't break. That being said, it was one of those $10 cotton ones from Dover, so nothing fancy. My mare's a 14.3 arabian cross, so she's pretty small.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

CharlotteThePenguin said:


> My mare set back once and the metal clip broke. The part that moves up and down (I have no idea what it's called) to clip it on and off broke. The rope itself didn't break. That being said, it was one of those $10 cotton ones from Dover, so nothing fancy. My mare's a 14.3 arabian cross, so she's pretty small.


Clips and snaps are one thing - that's a stress failure in the metal. Oops as a yearling (And she's a very small horse) has broken clips on a lead rope before. 

Not the actual rope.


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## CharlotteThePenguin (Apr 2, 2016)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Clips and snaps are one thing - that's a stress failure in the metal. Oops as a yearling (And she's a very small horse) has broken clips on a lead rope before.
> 
> Not the actual rope.


I would have called that breaking a lead rope, so maybe Chase broke the snap and not the actual rope? To me, the lead rope is the whole thing, even though that's not really true since the metal part isn't a rope. I didn't see Lydia specify anywhere that said whether it was the actual rope or the snap.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

While it is fun fact info to have knowing who this horse IS means little to nothing. You know he is an OTTB because he has a tattoo. The horse looks to be in good shape and really is not a rescue. You purchased him for $100 from a woman that was trying to sell him. You know his prior owner. You do not know how he acted or what training he may have received. He is a product of his past and with horses there is a well founded reason for the warning " Buyer Beware" . You are now the owner of a horse that has broken 2 leads and you are in a barn with questionable training resources.

IMO he did not work out for the woman that had him. He either had or developed some behaviors that could be or become dangerous. You leaped before you looked and this $100 horse is not such a bargain for you. Now you need to work with what you have or sell him to someone that is more capable of handling him. Not a bad reflection on you but a soft heart and willing nature is like green + green. I'm afraid you are in over your head and could end up black and blue. Either take what savings you have and find someone EXPERIENCED in retraining OTTB (and not either trainer you are with now) to work with you or convince your parents to put the money they were planning to put on Justice into him. If there is no money or not enough then find another home for him.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

CharlotteThePenguin said:


> I would have called that breaking a lead rope, so maybe Chase broke the snap and not the actual rope? To me, the lead rope is the whole thing, even though that's not really true since the metal part isn't a rope. I didn't see Lydia specify anywhere that said whether it was the actual rope or the snap.



Which is precisely why I added the bit about how there may be a miscommunication issue going on here.


Regardless, if this horse is consistently reacting so badly just to having a saddle put on his back, something is bad wrong and she's going to end up hurt, which is, I think, the essence of what we're all saying here.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

He broke the clip not the rope. I brought in a trainer in my area who retrains ottbs and we just finished a training session. We crosstied instead of single tied him and he was fine, just stood there and allowed me to tack him up. 

We did a walk trot ride and he was VERY good. We even got him to side pass both ways. I’m thinking it had something to do with the fact he wasn’t crosstied 😕


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Ah, so this is the type of lead rope with a snap, a chain, then rope? When you said _broke two ropes_... and this is where misunderstandings in terms causes a problem, I'm seeing a lead _rope_ that's been broken, not the snap.


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## clippity clop (May 1, 2012)

For horses that pull (or any horse for that matter) I use tie rings. My mare is a puller and when I tried to break her from it by using a lead/halter combination she couldn't break she pulled her back out of whack. I never tie a horse hard and fast anymore. Also it might be helpful to teach your horse how to hobble. It's great tool to teach patience! All my riding horses hobble. It has come in handy many times. Good luck!


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## UnluckyHorshoe_11 (Nov 18, 2018)

Hi, I had this problem with one of my geldings. It got to the point that it was dangerous to stand beside him when he was tied, and it was difficult to untie him when he really lost it. He pulled our gate off it's hinge pulling backwards whilst tied and it was terrifying. The way I dealt with it (and I don't know that it would work for every horse, nor do I claim to be some kind of expert) was to ask someone to hold him whilst I groomed him, got him to move away from pressure, clapped around him, distanced myself from where he was etc. Really just anything that I thought would be different and get him thinking rather than just reacting. Once he was fine with this (it took maybe a week to two weeks of the same routine) I started tying him to the gate and just patting him. If he went to move backwards/away for any reason, I calmly applied pressure to the rope (holding the slack you get between the gate and the horse's halter) and then released as soon as he settled. Then I started working on the brushing / grooming, walking around, clapping, just doing the same kind of stuff as before. Once I was sure he wouldn't behave explosively, I gradually made the amount of slack in the rope less, and by the end he was happy to stand nicely, and stopped throwing his head, rearing, pulling backwards, or trying to strike,squash, bite and kick me. Not sure if that helps, but it did for me. Now if he is a bit naughty when tied at the gate (really just fidgeting too much or trying to move sideways a little (not the scary stuff from before) I just untie him and get him moving his feet, working a little bit, and then retie him. Every time without fail he stands nicely afterwards, and it only requires like 30 seconds of you asking him to back up, move forward, shift his bum over, etc.


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## UnluckyHorshoe_11 (Nov 18, 2018)

farmpony84 said:


> While I agree that you should always rule out pain - You have to remember you are dealing with an OTTB.
> 
> TB's when trained for races don't spend alot of time on ground manners. That means this horse probably hasn't spent a ton of time being tied. He's used to having a saddle slapped on his back and a jockey tossed on.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I was thinking, reading the other posts. Yes, pain can be a factor, and ruling it out is important, but I think that a lot of the time, it is just horse behaviour. We tend to act like if something goes wrong with our horse it is explainable by blaming pain, or tack, or the owner. The reality is that horses do have a mind of their own, and whilst they tend to be obliging, it isn't a given that they are going to want to listen to you all of the time. I currently own a TB and have owned a SB, (a mare and a gelding) and horses that come off the track tend to be a bit worse behaved in terms of groundhandling. And it isn't true for every horse that is OTT, of course, but it can impact many. The simple fact is that often those who manage these horses don't have much time. If the horse has a problem, such as not wanting to tie, you don't tie the horse etc. That isn't a negative reflection of the industry, but when you have a lot of horses and they meet the standard needed to do what you want (eg. race), there isn't a lot of time spent of furthering them. That comes after. Obviously, I wouldn't discount pain as being the reason, but I don't think you can write off all bad behaviour as being pain related, and you may have more success with solving the issue if a pain reaction isn't all that you consider. OTT often don't get enough contact, exposure or basic training to do anything but race, and this impacts their ground manners a lot. The good news: Even if it is a behavioural thing, given time most problems can be fixed when it comes to horses. 

Good luck!!!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> Standies that have raced have freeze brands on their neck.


 This is very true. But so do Australian STBs that have not raced! All _registered_ Australian STBs currently, and for decades up to now, have to be freeze branded on their necks _to be registered in the first place_ - and it usually happens before weaning. If you see an unbranded STB (good luck telling!), it's unregistered. I think they're exploring microchipping as an alternative to freeze branding ATM, which is nice. 

Kind regards

Ms Pedantic :Angel:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Ah, I was told they only got the neck brand when they started race training...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

UnluckyHorshoe_11 said:


> dangerous to stand beside him when he was tied, and it was difficult to untie him when he really lost it. He pulled our gate off it's hinge


It never ceases to amaze me the things that people will 'hardtie' their horses to, and how they do it regardless of how well trained or otherwise their horse is on tying. But I guess they just don't know better & don't imagine the 'what ifs' until they happen. Therefore I find tying horses potentially one of the most dangerous situations. I've seen horses tied to WIRE fencing & have it pop off when they've pulled & 'chase' them. I've seen horses 'chased' by gates. I've luckily seen it coming & managed to jump a fence rail coming at me fast when a horse was tied to a nailed on rail & pulled...

When I turn up at a person's place these days, if the horse is tied, I always look at what they're tied to, and if it's to a gate or something else dangerous, I request the person immediately untie the horse. 

I also ask how well the horse is trained to tie up. If they say 'so-so' or he's a bit reactive or such, regardless where they're tied, I request the person hold the lead instead, while I'm under the horse, and suggest that they should work on this before considering tying the horse. 

If the person says the horse is good, I explain that regardless how good, any horse can 'flip' if the right buttons are pushed, so it's vital to ensure they're always tied to a secure, unbreakable structure, or tied to a bit of baler's twine or with a tie ring if there's nothing safe, so that the likelihood of bad accidents is significantly reduced.

How I train/retrain a horse to tie safely is not to tie them firm, but use a long, smooth rope & either wrap a couple of times around a smooth rail or horizontal tree branch or use a 'tie ring', so that when the horse comes up against pressure, if they panic, the rope isn't stuck hard, but will slide, allowing the horse to move their feet, back off & so quit panicking. The long rope allows for a lot of slide without my losing the end of it. When the horse quits pulling, the pressure is *instantly* off them, so they're reinforced for 'yielding'. When they start to feel more comfortably with being 'trapped' and quit being reactive, then I take another wrap around the rail, or otherwise increase the 'firmness' a bit. Then a bit more, when they're fine with that, until they're confidently standing 'tied firm'. I do this in a number of different settings, as horses don't generalise well. Only once they're reliable at this do I actually tie them firm. But always to either something seriously unbreakable, with an unbreakable rope/halter, or something easily breakable such as baler's twine.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

It's great that you were able to crosstie him with no issue and tack him up but, if my understanding of the situation is clear, I feel as though you should be taking baby steps with this guy. 
I also think every horse should be able to tie, and that may be something you and your trainer want to address.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

From my experience, horses have to get their tattoo before their first race to be able to enter. At the TB farm I worked at we had plenty who "went to the track" but didn't race, and thus, had no tattoo. I would consider the tattoo a sign that they entered an actual sanctioned race. 


Here's some additional information of the horse pictured. 
"powerlope" aka pumpkin
http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=8692071&registry=T
https://insta-stalker.com/post/BpsLIMcBLWd/

ctrl + f search powerlope 
https://issuu.com/floridahorse/docs/dec2012binder
http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/pdf/tdn/2012/tdn121009.pdf
https://www.skysports.com/racing/form-profiles/horse/606001/powerlope
https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-ra...g-tipton-kentucky-2010-select-yearling-sale/1

Now a different search on jockey club
Look up the tattoo number based on:
H308DigitDigit
Chestnut
Gelding
White Marks (yes)
Head (yes, stripe)
Left Fore (no)
Left Hind (yes)
Right Fore (no)
Left Hind (no)

1 Registered Thoroughbred(s) exist that possibly match the information you provided. Compare the markings of your horse with the markings listed below for a possible match. Click on the markings matching your horse for more information.
Horse	Marks
1	Star pointed to right on bottom and connected broken stripe, narrowing at eye level, ending on bridge of nose on bottom; few white hairs between nostrils. Left hind: white to above ankle, higher in back and on inside in back. Median cowlick at top of eye level.

Horse Name	The Red Baron
Tattoo	H30848
Year of Birth	2004
Dam Name	Timeline
Color	Chestnut
Sex	Gelding
Not the horse you were looking for? Closely re-examine the tattoo, and click Search Again.

As someone who has registered a handful of horses through jockey club I think the horse you have is "The Red Baron"
http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=7204504&registry=T
I can probably find a little more info on this horse, but it's reaching the limit of my ability.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

It doesn't sound like the markings match. Chase has white on his right hind, and his stipe goes to the nostril, not ending at the bridge of the nose.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

ApuetsoT said:


> It doesn't sound like the markings match. Chase has white on his right hind, and his stipe goes to the nostril, not ending at the bridge of the nose.


Your right, I don't know my left from right, though pics can be mirrored. Let me try again, there was a typo in my original post.

1 Registered Thoroughbred(s) exist that possibly match the information you provided. Compare the markings of your horse with the markings listed below for a possible match. Click on the markings matching your horse for more information.
Horse	Marks
1	Small narrow vertical star, extending slightly to left on top; bordered flesh colored snip slightly to left between nostrils. Right hind: half ankle irregularly white, higher in back and on inside in back; chestnut spots on coronet. Feathered median cowlick at bottom of eye level.

Horse Name	Yudeokdongcheon
Tattoo	H30819
Year of Birth	2004
Dam Name	Gibson Girl
Color	Chestnut
Sex	Horse


Edit to add on...
sorry had to work for over 10 hours today... little tired. 
Irregular curved star open to left and connected thin stripe, widening in center of face, becoming bordered flesh colored on bridge of nose, narrowing above nostrils, widening and becoming bordered flesh colored between nostrils, ending between nostrils,touching right nostril. Right hind: pastern and part of ankle white, higher on inside in back and in back. Cowlick slightly to left above eye level.
Horse Name	Powerlope
Tattoo	M30891
Year of Birth	2009
Dam Name	Arabic Dancer
Color	Chestnut
Sex	Horse


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## clippity clop (May 1, 2012)

loosie said:


> It never ceases to amaze me the things that people will 'hardtie' their horses to, and how they do it regardless of how well trained or otherwise their horse is on tying. But I guess they just don't know better & don't imagine the 'what ifs' until they happen. Therefore I find tying horses potentially one of the most dangerous situations. I've seen horses tied to WIRE fencing & have it pop off when they've pulled & 'chase' them. I've seen horses 'chased' by gates. I've luckily seen it coming & managed to jump a fence rail coming at me fast when a horse was tied to a nailed on rail & pulled...
> 
> When I turn up at a person's place these days, if the horse is tied, I always look at what they're tied to, and if it's to a gate or something else dangerous, I request the person immediately untie the horse.
> 
> ...




I use a 14' lead rope but my horse is smart. Once I was camping in Wyoming and had her tied to my trailer using tie ring and 14' lead rope. I got up early that morning to find a man leading my horse back to my trailer (we were in a huge field of other campers) My horse has figured out if she pulls just hard enough she can graze on the grass til the rope came completely out of the tie ring. Now I put a knot in the end of the rope..lol.. I love tie rings.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Y'all are very good detectives lol. The horse I got was nicknamed Pumpkin, aka Powerlope. His halter says Powerlope aswell. And the one who posted the ad was the girl I got him from. I checked out her instagram.... I feel like I was manipulated, she does not appear to have a shortage of money, or a cause for not taking proper care of him, at least not from the back of her school master Warmbloods.... I'm fine with it however, because I was given a sweet horse. Please don't try and reach out to her or involve her in this situation... So its definetly the horse I thought it was, however not a Stallion.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

clippity clop said:


> My horse has figured out if she pulls just hard enough she can graze on the grass til the rope came completely out of the tie ring. Now I put a knot in the end of the rope..lol.. I love tie rings.


Yeah they not silly ;-) I'd only use an *unsecured* rope on a tie ring for training when I'm around or for 'emergency' situations in safe places when there's nothing safe to tie to, for that reason. As the horse is better trained, you can loop the rope over itself foe more 'firmness' & then actually tie it. 

I wouldnt advise just knotting the end so the horse can have a whole long rope tho, as this is asking for tangles & potential injuries. Either tie short, or if you want your horse to have some grazing/moving range, 'high line'.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

LydiaAndJustice said:


> Y'all are very good detectives lol. The horse I got was nicknamed Pumpkin, aka Powerlope. His halter says Powerlope aswell. And the one who posted the ad was the girl I got him from. I checked out her instagram.... I feel like I was manipulated, she does not appear to have a shortage of money, or a cause for not taking proper care of him, at least not from the back of her school master Warmbloods.... I'm fine with it however, because I was given a sweet horse. Please don't try and reach out to her or involve her in this situation... So its definetly the horse I thought it was, however not a Stallion.



So that begs the question-- why did she have to resort to a sob story to unload him on someone? She has the means to advertise him well and get some good money for him, but she didn't. I would be very, very careful with this horse. I suspect there is a reason she essentially gave him away and falsified her story to do it. It's a bit of a red flag, and combined with your farrier's thoughts, concerning. You may have a gem, but you may not. Please get some help and take things slow until you really know what you have, which could take a few months. There may be a perfectly reasonable explanation, but in most cases, 'free or cheap' horses unloaded with a sob story are free/cheap for a reason. You just have to find the reason, and not get hurt when you do.


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## clippity clop (May 1, 2012)

loosie said:


> Yeah they not silly ;-) I'd only use an *unsecured* rope on a tie ring for training when I'm around or for 'emergency' situations in safe places when there's nothing safe to tie to, for that reason. As the horse is better trained, you can loop the rope over itself foe more 'firmness' & then actually tie it.
> 
> I wouldnt advise just knotting the end so the horse can have a whole long rope tho, as this is asking for tangles & potential injuries. Either tie short, or if you want your horse to have some grazing/moving range, 'high line'.


Normally I would agree with you but in situations where my horse is sleeping tied to my trailer I would rather her get tangled than get lose. She is 13 years old and can and does lie down at night even when tied to the trailer. She and I have traveled many miles and been thru many situations. I would never hard tie her to anything. Took me and the chiropractor forever to get her back right from pulling. Easier to use the tie ring.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

clippity clop said:


> Normally I would agree with you but in situations where my horse is sleeping tied to my trailer I would rather her get tangled than get lose. She is 13 years old and can and does lie down at night even when tied to the trailer. She and I have traveled many miles and been thru many situations. I would never hard tie her to anything. Took me and the chiropractor forever to get her back right from pulling. Easier to use the tie ring.


 Have you ever had a horse actually get tangled?


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Absolutely fascinating thread! I hope you are sure of the horse you actually have because it seems the possibilities are endless. Whoever he is, he is a fine looking guy! Is there any possibility that you could see or get a copy of his registration papers since his tattoo is not real clear? Depending on who he is he appears to be either 7 or 14-15.
Others have given excellent advice. All I can say is pay for competent help, be careful what you tie to (we have used tie rings for years), take it slow, don't get over-confident around him, and move him on if need be. 
Good luck with this project and thanks for sharing. Other's experience is good info for the rest of us.


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