# COVID-19 - different containment approaches around the world



## Spanish Rider

First off, I do not mean this to become a political debate or to cause hysteria. As I work in clinical research (30 years translating/editing pulmonology and general surgery studies/clinical trials), I have been interested to see the different approaches used at containing the virus and informing the public around the world. I mean no offense, and I do not intend to single-out any country or government.

I have no first-hand knowledge of what happened in China, but there seemed to be controlled information and disinformation until things got out of hand. Then, there was a massive control effort (or that is what we were allowed/supposed to see). If anyone has any other insight, I would love to hear.

As for Italy, our cousin and family live in a town of Padua, and three neighboring towns are under quarantine. Our cousin, MariCristi, is a teacher. She and her college-aged daughter have been at home since Feb 21st, as local schools and colleges were closed. Today, the closures have been extended to cover the entire country - no school and no university until March 15th, at least. Ennio, her husband, is a repairman. He continues to work in the area, in peoples' homes, with a mask and gloves. MariCristi and her daughter only leave the home to go to the supermarket every few days. All major public events have been cancelled, although certain sporting events continue to be held behind closed doors. Travel to Italy has nearly come to a standstill.

Here in Spain, the number of cases have started to grow, all related with tourism to Italy. So, of course, I am starting to pay more attention.

But, the difference between European countries like Spain, Italy, the UK, Germany, etc., is that we have nationalized healthcare. Again, I am not advocating one political stance, nor am I criticizing another. However, as healthcare is publicly controlled here (with fewer resources than in the US), it would seem that a standardized approach for containment would be more uniform, correct?

For example, our national healthcare administration has published a protocol for the public. As of right now, in the containment phase, this protocol includes:

1) If you suspect having COVID-19, you should NOT go to the doctor or hospital. You are to call 112 (our 911), and they will determine your risk. An ambulance will be sent to your home to take a throat culture.

2) You are to remain at home until the results are in. If positive, you should remain in a room separate from other family members.

3) You will receive daily phone calls by medical staff. If required (high fever, dyspnea, etc), you will be hospitalized.

Of course, this all sounds well and good, with the aim of keeping potentially ill patients at home and out of clinics, GP offices, the ER, etc. This should be effective as an initial containment procedure. However, at some point the system could be overloaded, and our system is a poor one.


Here comes the sticky part: what happens in a country like the US, where medical care is private? Are patients supposed to go to their GP, ER, local clinic? Is there a protocol for containment? And, what about individuals/families without healthcare coverage? 


I would also like to hear from HFers from other countries as this thing progresses, like @SueC in Australia or participants from the UK and the EC countries. Information is knowledge! Or something close to it.


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## ACinATX

I like the idea of sending an ambulance to your house to do a throat culture.

Even if we (United States) had nationalized health care, it would be administered by the states (I would guess) so even then the national gov't wouldn't be able to just send an ambulance to your house. I think it's not just that our health care is mostly (not entirely) private, but also that our country is just so large and is a federation of states (sort of) rather than a single entity that can just decree something and see it done.

In the US, many people without health care coverage will do what they usually do: not see a doctor because they can't afford it, or go to the emergency room.

The government could certainly make an announcement and advise people who suspect they may have it on what they should do. Who knows. I'm holding my tongue to not get political. But at least some guidance would probably be a good thing. Maybe it will be forthcoming. Again, who knows.

As for a protocol for confinement, you probably know more than I do, but my understanding is that we don't currently know a lot about how and when the disease is spread. I say this because of all of the cases that have popped up in the US where the person has no known relation to anyone who had the disease or had traveled to China or anything like that. Creating a protocol for confinement at this point is difficult because you just don't know. I also think that once this thing starts spreading more, confinement as an option will seem kind of pointless. If there's enough of it just floating around, then the genie is already out of the bottle and there's no point keeping just some people at home.


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## Spanish Rider

Yes, I agree with your 'genie out of the bottle' analogy. Perhaps that is the situation that other countries are earmarking their resources for.


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## SilverMaple

Unfortunately, a huge portion of the American population has little or no paid sick leave, or work jobs where they are punished for taking sick days. These people will go to work sick because they have no alternative. Missing even a few days of work is a huge financial hit. Missing weeks of work is not even an option. 

Many of these same people also lack access to affordable healthcare. They won't go to the doctor because they can't afford to, or because they are afraid the doctor will force them to stay home sick. Even a few days of medical care, with insurance, can run into the tens of thousands of dollars or more. Weeks of intensive care will bankrupt families-- even those WITH good insurance. Many families have little or no savings. A wage-earner home sick for weeks could mean losing everything. Most people working in food service, customer service, and many in healthcare are going to be those going to work sick because they have no choice. That's very concerning, as these are the people most likely to spread the illness if they DO work. The key to stopping the spread in most communities is going to lie with the minimum wage/ lower-paid workers scraping by to make ends meet who have no sick leave, no paid time off, and little or no insurance. That's frightening in and of itself. I worked in a nursing home for several years. I went to work sick with the flu, I worked with pneumonia, I worked with strep throat, and I worked a day after appendicitis surgery. Calling in sick just wasn't an option if I wanted to keep my job. Many workers are in that same boat. I now have a job with some paid sick leave, but not enough to cover weeks of time off, either. The long incubation period and long course of illness means that families could be looking at ill family members for 2-3 months... very, very few Americans can afford to take that amount of time off work to care for a spouse ill, then a child ill, then another child ill, then the other spouse.... 

As for containment, I think it's too late. There has been community spread among those with no ties to foreign travel, etc. It's likely been spreading in the US for weeks and because we aren't testing very many people, it's not known who is infected. Non-symptomatic people have shown to be positive for it. I predict an explosion of cases in the next week to ten days as people come down sick. The US instituted widespread quarantine efforts, closed schools, and banned public gatherings in 1918 for the Spanish Flu epidemic, and I would not be surprised to see that happen again. Unfortunately, most Americans can't just stay home and not work for 3 weeks. It's just not an option. That's one of the reason people are panicking and trying to avoid getting sick-- it's not just fear of the illness, it's fear of not being able to work for weeks, thus no money coming in. It's fear of closed schools requiring parents to find daycare for children. It's fear of overwhelmed healthcare systems and healthcare costs. Preliminary studies in China show that about 80% of the cases are mild; but 20% require additional medical care, hospitalization, etc. and that often runs into weeks of care. Our hospitals just cannot support 20% of the population needing care. Most are near or at capacity already with people ill from other causes. And 2% fatality rate is frightening, too, considering the seasonal flu this year is sitting at .1%. Nearly everyone has a close friend of family member with a chronic illness or underlying health conditions that could easily make COVID-19 deadly.


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## Horsef

Serbia here. We don’t have any cases yet but I think the authorities were very transparent so far. A few suspected cases were immediately reported to the media, even before the test results were out. They did close the schools for a little while but reopened them since there is no danger at the moment.

The testing is similar, the patient phones emergency services and the ambulance comes out fully decked out in protective gear (so that looks a bit apocalyptic but I think it is a good approach) and administers the test.

In any case, as long as internet is functional there is very little chance of a cover-up. Twitter is flooded with photos of medical personnel in protective gear as soon as they step out of the ambulance.

The authorities have prepared extra facilities in isolated hotels. Interestingly, those same hotels were used as quarantine in the last outbreak of smallpox in Europe in the seventies and it worked - the epidemic never fully developed but they had the vaccine for it and managed to vaccinate and revaccinate almost the entire population within a few weeks.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Good advice from James Robb, M.D., Fellow of the College of American Pathologists, posted 2/26/2020:

Subject: What I am doing for the upcoming COVID-19 (coronavirus) pandemic.

Dear Colleagues, as some of you may recall, when I was a professor of pathology at the University of California San Diego, I was one of the first molecular virologists in the world to work on coronaviruses (the 1970s). I was the first to demonstrate the number of genes the virus contained. Since then, I have kept up with the coronavirus field and its multiple clinical transfers into the human population (e.g., SARS, MERS), from different animal sources.

The current projections for its expansion in the US are only probable, due to continued insufficient worldwide data, but it is most likely to be widespread in the US by mid to late March and April.

Here is what I have done and the precautions that I take and will take. These are the same precautions I currently use during our influenza seasons, except for the mask and gloves:
1) NO HANDSHAKING! Use a fist bump, slight bow, elbow bump, etc.
2) Use ONLY your knuckle to touch light switches. elevator buttons, etc.. Lift the gasoline dispenser with a paper towel or use a disposable glove.
3) Open doors with your closed fist or hip - do not grasp the handle with your hand, unless there is no other way to open the door. Especially important on bathroom and post office/commercial doors.
4) Use disinfectant wipes at the stores when they are available, including wiping the handle and child seat in grocery carts.
5) Wash your hands with soap for 10-20 seconds and/or use a greater than 60% alcohol-based hand sanitizer whenever you return home from ANY activity that involves locations where other people have been.
6) Keep a bottle of sanitizer available at each of your home's entrances. AND in your car for use after getting gas or touching other contaminated objects when you can't immediately wash your hands.
7) If possible, cough or sneeze into a disposable tissue and discard. Use your elbow only if you have to. The clothing on your elbow will contain infectious virus that can be passed on for up to a week or more!

What I have stocked in preparation for the pandemic spread to the US:
1) Latex or nitrile latex disposable gloves for use when going shopping, using the gasoline pump, and all other outside activity when you come in contact with contaminated areas.
Note: This virus is spread in large droplets by coughing and sneezing. This means that the air will not infect you! BUT all the surfaces where these droplets land are infectious for about a week on average - everything that is associated with infected people will be contaminated and potentially infectious. The virus is on surfaces and you will not be infected unless your unprotected face is directly coughed or sneezed upon. This virus only has cell receptors for lung cells (it only infects your lungs) The only way for the virus to infect you is through your nose or mouth via your hands or an infected cough or sneeze onto or into your nose or mouth.
2) Stock up now with disposable surgical masks and use them to prevent you from touching your nose and/or mouth (We touch our nose/mouth 90X/day without knowing it!). This is the only way this virus can infect you - it is lung-specific. The mask will not prevent the virus in a direct sneeze from getting into your nose or mouth - it is only to keep you from touching your nose or mouth.
3) Stock up now with hand sanitizers and latex/nitrile gloves (get the appropriate sizes for your family). The hand sanitizers must be alcohol-based and greater than 60% alcohol to be effective.
4) Stock up now with zinc lozenges. These lozenges have been proven to be effective in blocking coronavirus (and most other viruses) from multiplying in your throat and nasopharynx. Use as directed several times each day when you begin to feel ANY "cold-like" symptoms beginning. It is best to lie down and let the lozenge dissolve in the back of your throat and nasopharynx. Cold-Eeze lozenges is one brand available, but there are other brands available.

I, as many others do, hope that this pandemic will be reasonably contained, BUT I personally do not think it will be. Humans have never seen this snake-associated virus before and have no internal defense against it. Tremendous worldwide efforts are being made to understand the molecular and clinical virology of this virus. Unbelievable molecular knowledge about the genomics, structure, and virulence of this virus has already been achieved. BUT, there will be NO drugs or vaccines available this year to protect us or limit the infection within us. Only symptomatic support is available.

I hope these personal thoughts will be helpful during this potentially catastrophic pandemic. You are welcome to share this email. Good luck to all of us! Jim

And a Doctor at Integris is recommending adults with no restrictions or contraindications should be taking 500 - 1,000 mg (1 gram) of zinc daily as a preventative.


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## Spanish Rider

@Horsef , Serbia! beautiful country. Hope to make it some day.

OK, so I had seen that the EU had formed a Task Force, so maybe Serbia, as a EU candidate, is functioning on the same recommendations as Spain. The hotel bit is interesting. Our hospitals are always overflowing in the winter, so I don't know how they'll deal with the influx of the extra estimated 20%. 

@SilverMaple , that is a scary scenario. I am freelance, so I completely understand living hand-to-mouth and without a guaranteed salary. I didn't even have maternity leave and worked lying down with the laptop on top of my stitched-up abdomen. For me, no work means not making ends meet. But, until I read your comment, I never realized that most people who are living on hourly wages and without medical coverage are service-industry workers. That is a whole different dynamic that I had not even considered. Very good point.


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## Spanish Rider

@DreamCatcher , I have never even seen hand sanitizer here. I guess we'll use straight-up alcohol! Also, we have been told that the masks are useless, because as soon as you touch the mask with your hands, you have touched the virus. Here, they are recommending hand-washing and nothing else.


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## tinyliny

That's very informative.


I am in Seattle. We have already had something like 9 deaths from the virus, but almost all were at a nursing home, I think, meaning the victims were quite old and frail to begin with.
The news of this node of outbreaks here put locals into a bit of a panic. Supermarkets are completely out of some food items, and certainly not a bottle of hand sanitizer to be found anywhere. 

They may have restocked by now, I don't know. But it's big news here.


So far, a few schools have been closed when some students had fievers. Nursing homes are doubling up on sanitizing things. A few elected officials have made speeches to try and calm feelings. I think there is a phone number to call if you think you may have it, but they have already run out of test kits.


Basically, it's "if you think you are sick, stay home. Wash your hands a LOT!" That's about it from the government, so far.


Really, wash your hands a zillion times a day is your number one defense.


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## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> @Horsef , Serbia! beautiful country. Hope to make it some day.
> 
> OK, so I had seen that the EU had formed a Task Force, so maybe Serbia, as a EU candidate, is functioning on the same recommendations as Spain. The hotel bit is interesting. Our hospitals are always overflowing in the winter, so I don't know how they'll deal with the influx of the extra estimated 20%


Thanks! If you do make it, drop me a line and I’ll show you around.

I think we are following EU recommendations. 

The communists knew a thing or two about marshaling millions of people into compliance. My mum was telling was telling us about the small pox outbreak. They each got a letter telling them where and when to show up for their vaccinations. There were no queues in order to prevent infection. If you didn’t show up, the police came to get you - no if’s or buts. If you were in contact with the infected, you would be picked up by the police and transported into one of those hotels. No one complained. The infectious diseases hospital was fully quarantined, under military guard and no one went in or out for a month.

I read a book about it and apparently the outbreak started because one guy decided to use alcohol to wash his vaccination site because he didn’t want to go through the post-vaccination flu-like symptoms. The reason he got his vaccine was because he was traveling to Mecca for pilgrimage and he was not allowed to travel there without vaccinations. The communists took those things seriously but there is always the human factor, even in communism.

I am guessing most of those old-time protocols from the communist era are not functional any more but I am sure there are still some doctors around who remember them and can organize a response in an emergency. Those isolated hotels worked well then so they are recycling the idea.


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## SilverMaple

People are being idiots and stealing masks from hospitals and care facilities now in spite of being told that a mask is not necessary or healthy unless you're already sick. Our local clinic and nursing facility is having people request a mask at the desk if they are sick rather than leaving them at the door for people to take on the way in as usual because people were stealing boxes of masks, gloves, and jugs of hand sanitizer. Hand sanitizer, paper towels, toilet paper, Lysol wipes, diapers, and disinfecting cleaners are also nowhere to be found. I've never seen a store sold out of bleach until this week, and we don't have any cases yet in our state! Sister in law who works in an ER says they have placed security guards on the supply rooms as people are trying to steal supplies. It's ridiculous. Without masks, gloves, and the like, nurses and doctors won't work, and then there won't be anyone to care for the sick! Medical supplies are short in many areas as citizens panic, especially since China isn't shipping out the supplies they make, and nearly all medical supplies are imported from China. The drugstore says people are buying them out of cold/flu meds and trying to fill prescriptions for several months in advance as many drugs are sourced from China as well, and are not being made right now.


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## Acadianartist

We're not hearing much here in Canada, but I am in the more rural, eastern part of Canada and most cases are in Ontario and BC, which are quite far from where I live. Health care here is universally available and is free to all, but we aren't being advised to do anything special other than wash our hands. If we have symptoms similar to Covid-19, we are told to call a health line, but all activities are going ahead as usual. There are 33 confirmed cases in the entire country (and Canada is huge, as I'm sure you know). I don't know if anyone has died yet. 

International travel is being affected more than anything else. I have a colleague who teaches a course in Italy in the spring and it may be cancelled. Many school trips to Europe have been cancelled. People are avoiding Chinese restaurants in the bigger cities apparently, which is a little absurd. But within Canada, it's business as usual. My daughter just flew to Toronto and Montreal and they didn't do anything different (but I sent some hand sanitizer and told her to wash her hands a lot!).


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## loosie

...And over here, people are buying up all the... toilet paper??! WTH? And anyway, they forget, we've still got the Murdoch papers to use...


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## SilverMaple

People are buying up toilet paper here out of fear they'll be stuck at home and won't be able to get any. Others are buying up supplies hoping to resell them later for a profit.


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## Acadianartist

Wow, that's crazy. I've not heard or experienced of any medical supplies being low, much less toilet paper. Sheesh.


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## Spanish Rider

> The communists knew a thing or two about marshaling millions of people into compliance.


Not just the communists. Here in Spain, the fascists were equally effective.

@loosie , we saw the Australian toilet paper shortage on the news! 




> Medical supplies are short in many areas as citizens panic, especially since China isn't shipping out the supplies they make, and nearly all medical supplies are imported from China. The drugstore says people are buying them out of cold/flu meds and trying to fill prescriptions for several months in advance as many drugs are sourced from China as well, and are not being made right now.


I am sure that, when this is all done, many countries will have to re-evaluate their supply chains. I've always thought it ridiculous for Europeans to buy goods from China - they have to cross the entire globe! Manufacturing should be promoted in northern Africa: equally cheap labor, closer to home, creating jobs and reducing illegal immigration/thousands of deaths by drowning in the Mediterranean.

The current supply monopoly isn't good for anyone… except China (and I mean China as an institution, because I'm sure there's not much trickle-down) and the American/European importers.


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## boots

The hospitals in my state (the US) is following Centers for Disease Control guidelines.

Basically the same as for other viruses. Wash hands. Rest well. If you get sick stay home. Etc


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## tinyliny

SilverMaple said:


> People are buying up toilet paper here out of fear they'll be stuck at home and won't be able to get any. *Others are buying up supplies hoping to resell them later for a profit.*


*
*​ 



Are you serious???!!! That's unbelieveable!
Scum!


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## Horsef

tinyliny said:


> [/B]​
> 
> 
> 
> Are you serious???!!! That's unbelieveable!
> Scum!


That’s nothing new. Most countries even have laws against such profiteering in emergency situations - precisely because it happens regularly.


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## loosie

Spanish Rider said:


> @loosie , we saw the Australian toilet paper shortage on the news!


That's pretty funny, that made the international news! Guess there's just so much... over here

"Your IQ Is 150 Minus The Number Of Toilet Paper Rolls You Have In Your House Right Now" ~TheShovel.com.au


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## loosie

...But back to a serious note, what you guys have told here is pretty scary actually!


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## SilverMaple

Home Depot, Lowe's, Costco, etc. are limiting the number of purchases on certain supplies like TP, diapers, soaps, cleaners, etc largely because people are stocking up in the hopes of reselling at a profit later. My brother had to go to five places before he found diapers in stock for their daughter, and he bought a case because the store had no idea when they would be getting more. I tried to get more of the hospital-grade disinfecting wipes that we use at work daily to wipe down doors, counters, computers, etc. and they were out of stock from most sellers, and priced sky-high from others. Hand sanitizer prices on Amazon are ridiculous-- $50 for pack of 2 8-oz bottles. $66 for a six-pack of 1-oz purse size bottles. We had a bottle of sanitizer stolen from work today by a customer. I put it out this morning on the counter, and by noon it had vanished. I just put the rest of the in-demand supplies in a locked cabinet that is in an out-of-the-way place in case we are broken into.


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## kiwigirl

.......never mind


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Spanish Rider said:


> @DreamCatcher , I have never even seen hand sanitizer here. I guess we'll use straight-up alcohol! Also, we have been told that the masks are useless, because as soon as you touch the mask with your hands, you have touched the virus. Here, they are recommending hand-washing and nothing else.


Here's a recipe for homemade Hand Sanitizer: 
Here’s what you need:
2/3 cup Isopropyl alcohol 91% (rubbing alcohol)
1/3 cup aloe vera gel
Essential oil in your choice of fragrance (optional)
A small or medium mixing bowl
A spoon
An empty container, such as a 3-ounce container from a travel toiletries kit
A small piece of masking tape for labeling
Here’s how to make it:
In a mixing bowl, stir Isopropyl alcohol and aloe vera gel together until well blended.

Add 8-10 drops of scented essential oil (optional, but nice!). Stir to incorporate.

Pour the homemade hand sanitizer into an empty container and seal. Write “hand sanitizer” on a piece of masking tape and affix to the bottle.

The CDC recommends using hand sanitizer with at least 60% alcohol content. This recipe makes a sanitizer that slightly exceeds that alcohol content at 60.66%, so follow the proportions exactly. If you want a sanitizer with a higher alcohol percentage, decrease the amount of aloe vera to 1/4 cup.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Check Bath & Body Works for those here in the US. I was in not too long ago and got several purse sized sanitizers in different "flavors" at 5 bottles for $7. Grabbed a couple of key chain fobs so I can't forget it.


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## tinyliny

Who keeps Aloe vera gel around the house all the time? I doubt I have anything like that in the house.


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## loosie

Just saw an ABC piece on the truths behind all the hype... One thing they weighed up is, is hand sanitizer the way to go, or just regular soap? Preference was for soap, as it also cuts through the oil on the skin which harbours the germs. But hand sanitizer is considered the next best thing.


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## Spanish Rider

A woman from church called my mum (lives in MA) to see how bad things were in Spain because she heard that there was a death from COVID19 in Madrid on Tuesday. Yes, there was - a 99-year-old woman who was already hospitalized. Giving FULL information on the news would lessen peoples' fears.
@DreamCatcher , thanks for the recipe. I prefer good ol' soap and water, but the gel is great for when you're out of the house. Actually, today I had to take my 16 yo son to the hospital (he has an undiagnosed medical condition), and on our way out we saw a bottle of sanitizer at the reception desk! So, I guess it does exist here, at least as a medical supply.


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## Acadianartist

Spanish Rider said:


> A woman from church called my mum (lives in MA) to see how bad things were in Spain because she heard that there was a death from COVID19 in Madrid on Tuesday. Yes, there was - a 99-year-old woman who was already hospitalized. Giving FULL information on the news would lessen peoples' fears.


Exactly. I'm not trying to minimize the risk, but mortality is still only around 3% from what I'm reading. Don't get me wrong, it's just common sense to avoid traveling to locations where the virus is spreading fast, but here in Canada, I've not read of any deaths yet, and if they do occur, it's likely going to be those who are already vulnerable. The regular flu kills many more people annually. I think people easily jump to panic mode. That said, it will likely make people re-think some of their travel habits, which wouldn't be a bad thing for the planet overall. Same with our supply chains - this has revealed many weak links, and a heavy reliance on China for cheap goods. Best to buy local, support local or regional businesses, and reduce the amount of shipping worldwide.


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## ACinATX

My husband made one of his fortunately rare trips to Costco about a month ago and bought 50 (at least) rolls of TP. The kind I don't even like. So if anyone runs out, just let me know. I can hook you up...
:wink:


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## ApuetsoT

Acadianartist said:


> Exactly. I'm not trying to minimize the risk, but mortality is still only around 3% from what I'm reading. Don't get me wrong, it's just common sense to avoid traveling to locations where the virus is spreading fast, but here in Canada, I've not read of any deaths yet, and if they do occur, it's likely going to be those who are already vulnerable. The regular flu kills many more people annually. I think people easily jump to panic mode. That said, it will likely make people re-think some of their travel habits, which wouldn't be a bad thing for the planet overall. Same with our supply chains - this has revealed many weak links, and a heavy reliance on China for cheap goods. Best to buy local, support local or regional businesses, and reduce the amount of shipping worldwide.



Influenza may have a higher head count, but it also has an established foothold in our population and has something like 5 million hospitalization globally with a mortality rate generally under 1%. Considering COVID-19 is more infectious and we have no vaccine or herd immunity, if it becomes as wide spread as Influenza there will be a much greater impact. That said, because we don't know much, it's possible way more people are infected than we think with none to mild symptoms and the mortality rate is way lower than reported.

Edit to add: Its not the viral apocalypse. No need to be panicking, most people will be just fine, but as far as we know, it's not just another flu.


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## SilverMaple

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Check Bath & Body Works for those here in the US. I was in not too long ago and got several purse sized sanitizers in different "flavors" at 5 bottles for $7. Grabbed a couple of key chain fobs so I can't forget it.


BBW sanitizer used to be too low in alcohol to work. I haven't bought any lately so I don't know if that's changed. But worth checking. I know I had a bottle from them one time that was 40% alcohol and it needs to be 60% to be effective.


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## knightrider

My daughter loves Bath & Body Works hand sanitizers and buys them sometimes. The ones we have are 68% alcohol. These were all bought this year.


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## jaydee

In the US each State will have its own advisory and our local town (where nearest hospital is situated) is putting out its own advisory as well
https://uwc.211ct.org/coronavirus-novel-in-connecticut-general-information/

My DH has just had some of his team return from business trips to Italy and Asia and he's told all of them to from home for at least 2 weeks. The company he works for is cancelling all non essential trips for the time being.

It isn't just the worry of mortality, its the chaos that will incur if a lot of staff are all off sick at the same time. That could have serious implications for hospitals, care homes, schools, police etc. Most stores would struggle to stay open if a lot of their staff were off ill.


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## SilverMaple

Part of the issue is how long the virus lasts.... incubation is 2 weeks or more. People are sick for weeks. Now some who recovered are again testing postitive, so the virus may hang around even longer-- months.

People are just now having symptoms who were exposed mid-February. It will be April before they recover. Who can afford to be sick and off work for 4-6 weeks or more?! And that's if you recover at home with no expense of hospital treatment.


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## Horse girl 07

I live in the US in New York and there are 13 confirmed cases in NY. They did close a school down to disinfect it. Now these are confirmed cases how many out there that did not report it or know they have it is unknown. 

Bath and body works a good idea and places like that I wish lush would sell a hand sanitizer. I do like that homemade recipe if there is a shortage is a great idea. We have just revamped all the chemicals to more organic ones. Now I find myself needing to go back to Clorox and Lysol. Not sure what kind of soap they recommend to wash your hands with. Any suggestions? Since it’s all they are recommending wash your hands. Do they even know what the best soap is.

Two days ago I received a email from the pediatrics office stating not to come into the office if my children or myself had symptoms of fever, shortness of breath or any corona virus symptoms or/and traveled to countries warned about by the cdc. The email instructed to call the provider first. The ambulance to the house is a good way to test not sure what they are doing here other then go to the hospital. I was in the er recently for my mom for issues unrelated to this topic. I noticed a lot of health care workers wearing masks and my sister - since I am (have lots of respiratory issues and heavy duty chemo two years ago -) immunocompromised- to get a mask. The nurse said they are conserving them for health care workers. There is a shortage and she told me to leave the hospital mostly due to the flue cases there. 

China has shut down many of their factories and I do worry there will also be a shortage of antibiotics as most of our antibiotics come from China. Antibiotics are needed for those who develop pneumonia from flue and corona virus. Since my immune system is not the best I am certainly concerned as I am for my parents who are older. I am concerned since they have no Tamiflu or vaccine. I can see how vaccines although not good for all (as they can effect some people immune systems) can make viruses slow down in spreading. . I hear some stores are already running out of hand sanitizer and Lysol wipes. If anyone heard me cough - my normal cough sounds like I have iron lung lol -they might want to bubble wrap me and quarantine me. I did get the n99 reusable masks on Amazon they will not get here by End of March. I will use them regardless for other things but glad to have them.


----------



## gottatrot

Regular soap is fine. Soap and water are the the best preventatives because there is no need for them to kill anything to be effective. You only need to wash the viruses or bacteria off your hands in order to prevent infection. Just like we wash our vegetables with water and don't get sick - all we have to do is rinse the germs off of them, not douse our veggies in sanitizer.

Soap aids water in removing things off our hands more effectively.

Maybe I'm jaded or callused. People complain constantly that the world is over populated and we're killing off nature. The natural effect of too many humans is that diseases will help limit the population explosions. A 99 year old is going to die of something within a few weeks or months. Some kind of virus or just the body failing is going to cause a death.

I think it should be encouraged that those who are medically fragile, old or immuno-compromised should be encouraged to wear masks, avoid going out in public, etc., and the rest of us should just live with the fact that we are exposed to multitudes of viruses, bacteria and fungi every day, and some of those will make us ill or kill us.


----------



## Horse girl 07

@gottatrot thanks makes sense!


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

SilverMaple said:


> BBW sanitizer used to be too low in alcohol to work. I haven't bought any lately so I don't know if that's changed. But worth checking. I know I had a bottle from them one time that was 40% alcohol and it needs to be 60% to be effective.


It's 68% now.


----------



## SilverMaple

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> It's 68% now.



Good to know they bumped it up


----------



## egrogan

Thank you @gottatrot for being a voice of reason. Today I went to a coffee shop before a meeting and they refused to fill my reusable mug because the state has apparently issued precautions to restaurants to only use disposable cups. What a terrible trade off for the planet. I hate the hysteria that sweeps the country when something like this pops up.


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## Horse girl 07

Good to know at 68% . Yeah all the Chemical laden cleaning products will not help immune systems either and the chemical soaps (Parabens and sulfates to name just a few) won’t help the environment either. I’m sure glad they are taking that extra precaution with refills though especially during flu season alone along with all the Clorox and Lysol products for the time being just seems to make sense to me. Prevention is important.


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## Acadianartist

Yep, I'm with @gottatrot. Those who are immunocompromised, or at risk because they have been exposed, or live in an area of high exposure, should take extra precautions. The rest of us should wash our hands often, and be sensible. Not hoard toilet paper for pete's sake.


----------



## Spanish Rider

My 8-year-old niece has cystic fibrosis, which is an added concern, as you can imagine. My sister, her mom, just sent me a funny little ditty that is circulating online amongst the CF community (and, of course, we are from Boston):


NEIL DIAMOND: "Hands…"

CDC: "Yes, wash them for at least 20 seconds." 

NEIL DIAMOND: "Touching hands…"

CDC: "No, please don't touch hands."

NEIL DIAMOND: "Reaching out…"

CDC: "Avoid that, too."

NEIL DIAMOND: "Touching me!"

CDC: "Oh, hell."

NEIL DIAMOND: "TOUCHING YOOOOOOUUUUUU!!!!!"


:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


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## Horse girl 07

@Spanish Rider - yes I have something similar - it’s good to laugh though that was cute. I had seen this on line last week I thought was cute!


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## Acadianartist

Haha... yes, I've seen some circulating that say "Wash your hands like you're trying to rub out the club stamp you don't want your mom to see!"


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## SilverMaple

I saw one today that says "Wash your hands like the feathers of your Clydesdale the morning of a halter class."


----------



## Finalcanter

What is the difference in symtomology between this and the flu? I'm in the US, health is privatized...they say stay home if you are sick, but many people go to the doctor to get prescriptions or just to find out what's ailing them. If I feel like I'm coming down with something, I go to the doctor to figure out what it is. Is it really bad to do that now? You can be sick with any number or things--there's only one way to find out and that's going to the doctors office before it gets worse.

...or are we more so talking about when you have really bad symptoms to not go, because then I understand. But at the same time, if you don't know what you have and you let your symptoms get worse without a proper diagnosis...that's asking for it. I guess that's when you'd get the mask if you need to absolutely go to the clinic. I can only imagine how many untold deaths due to the flu and other viruses are not in the 'death toll' count because people didn't want to go to the clinic or couldn't. 

I guess I'm really conflicted on how things are being said on the news (not clearly enough). People need to know when and when not to get help. And since viruses are usually contagious before symptoms can occur, and those who are asymptomatic can still spread it, it's impossible to contain such things completely. Airbourne viruses are tricky, but I think this panic is also very very overblown. Now if this was an airbourne disease with the death rate of Ebola or rabies, or the spanish flu....then it's really really time to freak the hell out!


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## rambo99

Use common sense wash hands, use hand sanitizer stay the heck away from obviously sick people. I'm really not worried about it. 

I figure it this way if you're time is up, nothing you can do to change it. We are all going to die some day some just sooner than others.

If Corona virus doesn't kill you something else will.


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## 4horses

I think the U.S. needs to issue some guidelines.

If you have recently traveled and think you have coronavirus symptoms you should do x. 

Otherwise you have people with the flu, car accident victims, typical accident or illness people, and potentially coronavirus patients all intermingled in the hospital waiting room. That sounds like a good way to spread the virus to the critically ill and within the community.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Spanish Rider said:


> My 8-year-old niece has cystic fibrosis, which is an added concern, as you can imagine. My sister, her mom, just sent me a funny little ditty that is circulating online amongst the CF community (and, of course, we are from Boston):
> 
> 
> NEIL DIAMOND: "Hands…"
> 
> CDC: "Yes, wash them for at least 20 seconds."
> 
> NEIL DIAMOND: "Touching hands…"
> 
> CDC: "No, please don't touch hands."
> 
> NEIL DIAMOND: "Reaching out…"
> 
> CDC: "Avoid that, too."
> 
> NEIL DIAMOND: "Touching me!"
> 
> CDC: "Oh, hell."
> 
> NEIL DIAMOND: "TOUCHING YOOOOOOUUUUUU!!!!!"
> 
> 
> :mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


ROFL! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Finalcanter said:


> What is the difference in symtomology between this and the flu? I'm in the US, health is privatized...they say stay home if you are sick, but many people go to the doctor to get prescriptions or just to find out what's ailing them. If I feel like I'm coming down with something, I go to the doctor to figure out what it is. Is it really bad to do that now? You can be sick with any number or things--there's only one way to find out and that's going to the doctors office before it gets worse.
> 
> ...or are we more so talking about when you have really bad symptoms to not go, because then I understand. But at the same time, if you don't know what you have and you let your symptoms get worse without a proper diagnosis...that's asking for it. I guess that's when you'd get the mask if you need to absolutely go to the clinic. I can only imagine how many untold deaths due to the flu and other viruses are not in the 'death toll' count because people didn't want to go to the clinic or couldn't.
> 
> I guess I'm really conflicted on how things are being said on the news (not clearly enough). People need to know when and when not to get help. And since viruses are usually contagious before symptoms can occur, and those who are asymptomatic can still spread it, it's impossible to contain such things completely. Airbourne viruses are tricky, but I think this panic is also very very overblown. Now if this was an airbourne disease with the death rate of Ebola or rabies, or the spanish flu....then it's really really time to freak the hell out!


Bottom line is, if you have respiratory symptoms, wear a mask to protect others. Wash your hands a lot, use hand sanitizer a lot. Don't shake hands, apologize for being rude if you feel you must, but mainly be sensible. A common cold can have acute symptoms for around 7-10 days. Chronic symptoms (cough, snot) for 3 weeks. If you have a fever above 100.5 F or 38 C, respiratory symptoms that make you think you possibly have pneumonia, then go be checked by all means. Caveat for thyroid patients, if you're hypothyroid, you could be running a pretty good fever (for you) and never break 100. 

Wash your hands, don't cough or sneeze into your elbow if you can avoid it. Cover your mouth and nose. If your doctor or clinic has a call in consult you can do, do that first. Stay home from work or school if you're sick. Call your dr. the first day you're out, most jobs require a dr's excuse after 3 days. 

Carry hand sanitizer, and put some of that sanitizer on paper towels when you're out in public and wipe down tables, seats, menus. Anything anyone else who's buggy could have touched. If nothing else, it'll keep you from getting the flu.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Best one I've seen yet.


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## loosie

rambo99 said:


> If Corona virus doesn't kill you something else will.


I saw some figures - it was something like... Corona virus has killed 181 people to date. Cancer has killed 1000's over just the last year. Heart disease has killed 1000's over the last year. Suicide has killed 1000's. Hunger has killed many, many 1000's. But rich people can't catch starvation so they're not worried about that...


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## loosie

Not sure if I posted this one...


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## loosie

Apparently it started from a joke some DJ made about running out of toilet paper & people just took that 'ball' &...


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## BzooZu

Slovakia here. So far no know cases, but we too get daily updates by media about what is going on.
Same as Spanish Rider, these two rules apply here:



Spanish Rider said:


> 1) If you suspect having COVID-19, you should NOT go to the doctor or hospital. You are to call 112 (our 911), and they will determine your risk. An ambulance will be sent to your home to take a throat culture.
> 2) You are to remain at home until the results are in. If positive, you should remain in a room separate from other family members.


And maybe some other rules, but I cant remember them now.

To say the truth its probably already in our country just not found. There is no way its not - everyone around us has already found at least one person who has it. 
People are also kinda getting ready to be at home for long times - many are shopping for non-perishable foods.
Personally, just waiting for it to hit, eating my fruits and veggies (vitamins) and trying to stay healthy as long as possible.


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## ApuetsoT

loosie said:


> I saw some figures - it was something like... Corona virus has killed 181 people to date. Cancer has killed 1000's over just the last year. Heart disease has killed 1000's over the last year. Suicide has killed 1000's. Hunger has killed many, many 1000's. But rich people can't catch starvation so they're not worried about that...


Not sure where you are getting your stats from. COVID19 has killed 149 in Italy alone. Globally it's sitting around 3300.


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## Finalcanter

Many cases in NYC, and One on Long Island where I am...my god mother runs a school and is worried. Also my mother knew the attorney that got it. Yesterday at her job (Brooklyn family court) some individuals in suits came there and they did a deep clean of the whole area. It's pretty surreal when it's right on your doorstep (the virus) but I'm more worried for her than myself--she has lung problems related to or possible related to 911 and she's 55..
She has asthma which causes her to cough often (I honestly wonder if this is genetic though, my grandmother and her children all have it but). Anyway, due to these things she used to get Bronchitis a lot. I'm more concerned about her than me--I'm relatively healthy and young.


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## aubie

Speaking of TP. Was in the store not to long ago ( pre hoarding) and saw some on sale so I stocked up. It was Charmin, saw the Bears with rolls in their hands and everything. What I didn't see was " essentials" apparently code for 1 ply. Or "strong " code for sandpaper 

I am not sure it's even real paper. Looks like some kind of synthetic.


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## aubie

Oh wow. new case reported less than an hour from me. there where two reported downtown but was not as concerned because thas where the CDC is. Butt this is regular old small town


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## SilverMaple

Immunologists say it's been spreading for weeks, but because of lack of testing and the long incubation period, nobody knew it. I wouldn't be surprised if it's nearly everywhere by now.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Another good one!


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## boots

I heard on National Public Radio (USA) today that the results on a joint study from the University of Hong Kong and Harvard School of Medicine put the death rate from COVID-19 is 1.4%. 14 of every 1000 people who are our become infected.

We'll probably end up with it even in my remote area. Many people here travel abroad this time of year. And business often takes us to Denver, which has a reported case.

As far as the tp shortage, we don't have a shortage yet. And if we did, at least ranch people who have lived primitively know how to manage without that and most conveniences.

Just heard that Italy had banned the traditional two-cheek kiss as a greeting. If polo adopts that... I don't know how we'll say hello!


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Flu season is hitting its stride right now in the US. So far, the*CDC has estimated*(based on weekly influenza surveillance data) that at least 12,000 people have died from influenza between Oct. 1, 2019 through Feb. 1, 2020, and the number of deaths may be as high as 30,000.*
Worldwide the rate is estimated to be 290,000 to 650,000, with a death rate percentage of 6.9%. Per W.H.O. and CDC for 2019. 

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## cbar

@loosie, oddly enough, some of the stores here in Alberta, Canada are out of TP as well!! Costco shelves were completely empty - they are not sure who to blame it on though. The Corona Virus or the CN rail protestors (or both I guess). (your meme on the liberals was spot on though....hahaha...I had a good chuckle over that one). 

I just hope the shelves are stocked next time I need some as that could be kind of awkward. 

I am with @gotatrot on the over population and folks who would otherwise succumb to a virus likely being the most at risk. 

Oddly enough, I was telling my cousin not so long ago that many of the world's problems were due to over-population. When a species over populates they are normally the cause of their own demise. 

Not saying the virus isn't worrisome, but I also think the media likes to take things and run with it. 

I saw some memes on FB (probably mostly in China) of people who basically wrapped their whole bodies in plastic wrap. I mean, even if that prevents the virus from spreading to you, you will likely die of suffocation anyway. Way to go. 

Just my random thoughts on the subject.

It is business as usual where I am (except for the travel advisories).


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## ACinATX

I just heard they cancelled South by Southwest. Do people outside of Texas even know what that is? It's big news over here for sure...


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## egrogan

Sigh, my company issued a "soft ban" on "non-essential travel" yesterday. I was supposed to be presenting at a conference in DC at the end of next week. The conference has moved to allow all sessions to be attended and presented virtually, and my co-presenter decided she wanted to go for the virtual option. Given that, and my company's policy, I went along with the virtual option too. Unfortunately American Airlines is not yet waving the rebooking penalty ($200) but did allow me to convert my non-refundable flight into a one-year credit (that will just be hit with a $200 penalty when I use it to rebook). We have an unfortunate presentation time so I didn't expect our session to be particularly well attended, so I guess if there's a trip to miss, this one isn't terrible. I would guess even fewer people will join our session now, but at least we won't have wasted 24 hours traveling back and forth.


Begs the question why more academic conferences aren't going fully virtual for environmental reasons...if it CAN be done, and we're just choosing not to, maybe this will spark a change in the culture.


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## egrogan

ACinATX said:


> I just heard they cancelled South by Southwest. Do people outside of Texas even know what that is? It's big news over here for sure...


Oh wow, that is huge. Yes, I had 5 colleagues who were supposed to go (actually, one woman I used to supervise won a free registration this year because she was some sort of social media super-user at the conference last year! Bummer for her). I heard there had been pretty serious protests in Austin over the past couple of weeks with local people not wanting the international travelers in town. Supposedly some pretty big names had been re-booked as speakers to replace the early dropouts. What a mess. I can't imagine the economic hit your city is going to take.


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## SwissMiss

egrogan said:


> Begs the question why more academic conferences aren't going fully virtual for environmental reasons...if it CAN be done, and we're just choosing not to, maybe this will spark a change in the culture.


Well, for me the personal interactions (aka talking after the talk) are even more important than the presentations... And lot of great collaborations have been formed by discussing a poster (and continuing the discussion at the bar :wink… Maybe it's just the type of conference I am attending that is not conductive to a remote/virtual format... It is as much a networking event as a conference...


----------



## loosie

ApuetsoT said:


> Not sure where you are getting your stats from. COVID19 has killed 149 in Italy alone. Globally it's sitting around 3300.


Yeah, I said 'something like' cos I couldn't remember actual numbers, but this was talking about one country. 

Anyway the gist... Wonder how many _globally_ have died of cancer, of heart disease, of suicide...


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## egrogan

SwissMiss said:


> Well, for me the personal interactions (aka talking after the talk) are even more important than the presentations... And lot of great collaborations have been formed by discussing a poster (and continuing the discussion at the bar :wink… Maybe it's just the type of conference I am attending that is not conductive to a remote/virtual format... It is as much a networking event as a conference...


You're right. The not-so-secret secret is that it's just a giant excuse for 4 days of happy hours at the conferences I go to. It's way more about networking/schmoozing than getting another line on your CV (at least once you're no longer a grad student). But it's just so bad for the world...


----------



## SwissMiss

egrogan said:


> You're right. The not-so-secret secret is that it's just a giant excuse for 4 days of happy hours at the conferences I go to. It's way more about networking/schmoozing than getting another line on your CV (at least once you're no longer a grad student). But it's just so bad for the world...


I agree that environmentally it doesn't make any sense. But if the conference is in Capri, Glasgow (this year and I didn't have the funds to go ), Kona or Perth, it is _very_ tempting to combine work with a nice vacation :Angel:


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## Acadianartist

I did NOT check these stats! But for what it's worth, this is what's circulating on my social media:

Everyone take a breath... you don’t need more toilet paper! That won’t help with the Coronavirus BUT HERES SOME INFORMATION THAT WILL! 👇

✔ 82,000 People are sick with Coronavirus at the moment, of which 77,000 are in China.
This means that if you are not in or haven't recently visited China, this should eliminate 94% of your concern.

🧪 If you do contract Coronavirus, this still is not a cause for panic because:
81% of the Cases are MILD
14% of the Cases are MODERATE
Only 5% of the Cases are CRITICAL

😉 Which means that even if you do get the virus, you are most likely to recover from it.

🙄 Some have said, “but this is worse than SARS!”. SARS had a fatality rate of 10% while COVID-19 has a fatality rate of 3.4%

👍 Moreover, looking at the ages of those who are dying of this virus, the death rate for the people UNDER 50 years of age is only 0.2%

💰 This means that if you are under 50 years of age and don't live in China - you are more likely to win the lottery (which has a 1 in 45,000,000 chance)

📚 Let’s take one of the worst days so far, the 10th of February, when 108 people in CHINA died of Coronavirus.

🗺 On the same day:
👉 26,283 people died of Cancer
👉 24,641 people died of Heart Disease
👉 4,300 people died of Diabetes
👉 Suicide took 28 times more lives than the virus did.

🦟 Mosquitoes kill 2,740 people every day, 
👨 HUMANS kill 1,300 fellow humans every day,
🐍 Snakes kill 137 people every day, 
🦈 Sharks kill 2 people a year.


----------



## loosie

^ I think the above figures were what I got my figures from, that apeutsot commented on.

Wow Fuddy, I knew that flu could kill but I'm surprised at the figures!


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## Acadianartist

egrogan said:


> You're right. The not-so-secret secret is that it's just a giant excuse for 4 days of happy hours at the conferences I go to. It's way more about networking/schmoozing than getting another line on your CV (at least once you're no longer a grad student). But it's just so bad for the world...


Explains why I avoid conferences now. I used to do at least 4 a year, but now, I have to force myself, and rarely go if I don't get a request/explicit invitation from the organizers. I hate networking, schmoozing, socializing, all of it. I used to love to travel when I was young, but now I just find it exhausting. I'm actually grateful for an excuse to avoid going anywhere. Sad, I know. But I do think that humanity has, overall, become too lax about travel, and that it won't hurt to scale it back a bit. I haven't traveled for pleasure (ie, vacation) in many years, and have really reduced my work travel to a minimum. I understand that human contact is best for networking, but sometimes, for the planet, it isn't.


----------



## updownrider

Johns Hopkins is globally tracking the cases. You can see it is broken down by country and by how many deaths, and how many have recovered. 

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


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## loosie

So, wondering why I have 'My Sherona' & 'Come on Eileen' stuck in my head... Just realised I've been singing 'Mamama-my Corona' and 'Covid 19 oh oh covid 19...'


----------



## AnitaAnne

Definitely panic in our little town. I have allergy induced asthma, and frequently cough out in public when exposed to allergens, like perfumes and smoke, and also frequently cough when changing from cold to warm areas (like outside to in grocery store). I minimize this by trying to remember to treat myself Before going into store, but it doesn't always happen.


In the past, when I coughed, some people would back away about 3+/- feet, some would offer cough drops, some would frown...Now people leave the line when I cough, and look terrified.

It is even worse at work (I'm an RN) and some of the patients/families have become increasingly angry if they hear or see me cough *sigh* 


I have decided to avoid eating out, because the food industry is full of low wage employees that can't call off sick without loosing their jobs. I am also avoiding products from China as much as possible, and scrubbing them when I can't avoid purchase (Dollar Tree)


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

Acadianartist said:


> I did NOT check these stats! But for what it's worth, this is what's circulating on my social media:
> 
> Everyone take a breath... you don’t need more toilet paper! That won’t help with the Coronavirus BUT HERES SOME INFORMATION THAT WILL! [emoji116]
> 
> [emoji3581] 82,000 People are sick with Coronavirus at the moment, of which 77,000 are in China.
> This means that if you are not in or haven't recently visited China, this should eliminate 94% of your concern.
> 
> [emoji3457] If you do contract Coronavirus, this still is not a cause for panic because:
> 81% of the Cases are MILD
> 14% of the Cases are MODERATE
> Only 5% of the Cases are CRITICAL
> 
> [emoji6] Which means that even if you do get the virus, you are most likely to recover from it.
> 
> [emoji849] Some have said, “but this is worse than SARS!”. SARS had a fatality rate of 10% while COVID-19 has a fatality rate of 3.4%
> 
> [emoji106] Moreover, looking at the ages of those who are dying of this virus, the death rate for the people UNDER 50 years of age is only 0.2%
> 
> [emoji383] This means that if you are under 50 years of age and don't live in China - you are more likely to win the lottery (which has a 1 in 45,000,000 chance)
> 
> [emoji432] Let’s take one of the worst days so far, the 10th of February, when 108 people in CHINA died of Coronavirus.
> 
> [emoji901] On the same day:
> [emoji117] 26,283 people died of Cancer
> [emoji117] 24,641 people died of Heart Disease
> [emoji117] 4,300 people died of Diabetes
> [emoji117] Suicide took 28 times more lives than the virus did.
> 
> [emoji3082] Mosquitoes kill 2,740 people every day,
> [emoji67] HUMANS kill 1,300 fellow humans every day,
> [emoji216] Snakes kill 137 people every day,
> [emoji1655] Sharks kill 2 people a year.


Another statistic...
"Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than*480,000*deaths per year in the United States, including more than41,000*deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure."

I can't understand this run on toilet paper.
Everyone will just have to sit tight until it's over.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## tinyliny

I was really bummed to hear about SXSW being cancelled. Isn't that going a bit to extremes?


Here in Seattle, they cancelled Comic Con, a HUGE convention here. They postponed it. 



This whole panic and overreacting by cancelling all these events, and economic impact it is having (which is going to get way worse), is FAR FAR more damaging to our country than the impacts of the illness itself. 



Businesses here are laying poeple off, and collapsing, even though NOT ONE person has gotten sick due to them. NOT ONE>


This reminds me a bit of the whole housing crisis of 2007; The foolish behavior of a certain group of , well, 'fools', will drag down every other sane, reasonable, person out there. 



I'm really steamed about this!


----------



## Acadianartist

Yeah, I'm on the fence about cancelling stuff. Most school trips to Europe have been cancelled, but a group of students from one school is still going - to Italy! Parents are annoyed that they will have to stay home from school for 14 days after returning. I think it was a horrible idea to go in the midst of this. 

On the other hand, I'd be crushed for my son if the Canada Cup in Vancouver got cancelled (it's only in July so lots of time for the virus to die out hopefully). It will be his last year playing football for our province at the national level and we were all hoping to go watch him play. But BC is one of the provinces that has active cases so who knows how this will all play out. Hard to make plans though.

I do think some people are overreacting, but then again, some people are being idiots and not using common sense. There must be a middle ground in all this.


----------



## ACinATX

tinyliny said:


> I was really bummed to hear about SXSW being cancelled. Isn't that going a bit to extremes?


The thing that's really ridiculous about that, IMO, is that the mayor is the one who cancelled it. He just declared a "local disaster" and said it couldn't go forward. Disaster???


----------



## SilverMaple

See, here's the thing. This virus is very serious to those who are older or have heart/lung/immune issues. 30x more dangerous than the flu. Social distancing is KEY to preventing spread to these vulnerable people, along with not touching contaminated surfaces. So large gatherings, schools, daycares, conferences, conventions, travel, etc. are the worst thing anyone can do. We're starting to test here in the US for people who have NOT been traveling internationally. Cases are going to explode within the next week to 10 days as testing increases. A week ago, only a handful of states had confirmed cases. Within the last couple of days, dozens more states have confirmed cases. Over the next week or two once testing kits become more available, we're going to see thousands of new cases nationwide. 

There's a woman in Nebraska, 36 years old, played in a large sporting event a week ago and is currently hospitalized in 'very serious condition' at the UNMC and she had contact with hundreds of people at the event, plus everywhere she went this past week to eat, shop, buy groceries, etc. before she knew she was ill. There are thousands more people like her in the US right now who don't know they have it but are infecting others.

This virus could kill people like my dad. If cancelling a convention or flight keeps people home so he's not coughed on, and helps slow spread so the ER's and hospitals aren't full of the mildly sick if he should need care, I'm all for it.


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## trailhorserider

SilverMaple said:


> See, here's the thing. This virus is very serious to those who are older or have heart/lung/immune issues. 30x more dangerous than the flu. Social distancing is KEY to preventing spread to these vulnerable people, along with not touching contaminated surfaces. So large gatherings, schools, daycares, conferences, conventions, travel, etc. are the worst thing anyone can do. We're starting to test here in the US for people who have NOT been traveling internationally. Cases are going to explode within the next week to 10 days as testing increases. A week ago, only a handful of states had confirmed cases. Within the last couple of days, dozens more states have confirmed cases. Over the next week or two once testing kits become more available, we're going to see thousands of new cases nationwide.
> 
> There's a woman in Nebraska, 36 years old, played in a large sporting event a week ago and is currently hospitalized in 'very serious condition' at the UNMC and she had contact with hundreds of people at the event, plus everywhere she went this past week to eat, shop, buy groceries, etc. before she knew she was ill. There are thousands more people like her in the US right now who don't know they have it but are infecting others.
> 
> This virus could kill people like my dad. If cancelling a convention or flight keeps people home so he's not coughed on, and helps slow spread so the ER's and hospitals aren't full of the mildly sick if he should need care, I'm all for it.



Thank you SilverMaple! I feel the same way. My Mom has all sorts of health conditions both with her lungs, heart and diabetes. Both my parents are in their 70's. (Heck, I am in my 40's but have asthma.) We are taking this quite seriously as I don't know if my Mom will make it through another pneumonia. 

If someone thinks all the precautions people are taking are just over-reactions, and you are SURE you will be in the lucky 80% with hardly any illness, more power to you. But some of us have legitimate concerns about this virus. I am tired of hearing folks call this over-reacting when it is a legitimate danger to some people. I would think MOST people would know at least ONE person that has some health issues that they don't want to see die from pneumonia.......right? 

This article says this corona virus may be 34 more times fatal than the flu. I think that deserves some respect.


https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...ovel-coronavirus-and-how-to-prevent-covid-19/


I have a feeling the virus is already all over the United States and the only reason we don't know about it is a lack of test kits and a long incubation period. That doesn't mean it isn't out there doing damage, just that it hasn't been confirmed yet. Just in the last two days there is confirmed community spread here in Arizona. I think the spread is out way ahead of the actual testing.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I think, I hope that once this thing really hits and we can confirm who does/does not have it and people start recovering and not dying, things will calm down. I DO think it's going to hit us hard, more in the cities than out in the country for the obvious reasons but it's going to hit. But like a bad cold, it can turn into pneumonia and it can be nasty. I'm in my 60's, have a history of asthma and pneumonia (Have been vaxed with all the newest, super zoomiest vacs) so touch wood, if I'm exposed my immune system will deal with it. I AM washing my hands and using hand sanitizer like a new religion. I'm not cancelling things we have planned, like going to OKC today and having lunch and then doing Costco, I just am being reasonably cautious. In late April/early May, we're going to fly to Vegas for a medical convention for hubby, then in August we're flying to FL for convention for me and more medical CE for hubby. We're not cancelling and in fact both trips are paid for and just waiting to happen. I also intend to go to a few horse shows, including Pinto World. The sky isn't going to fall, we're not all going to die tomorrow and some of us, I suspect those who are too stubborn to die, will recuperate and live on. Lord willing and the Devil don't object, I intend to be one of those. 

The thing about this that really rips my knickers is, hubby informed me that they have not been able to order the face masks they need at the clinic because the suppliers have shipped them all to China. That's another hoarding thing like the TP issue. Just plain dim.


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## gottatrot

I'm with @tinyliny. 
For example, due to the widespread panic, there are worries about having shortages of masks.
This means that at my work, people like me who are allergic to the flu shot and normally wear masks to protect patients, are now being told we don't need to wear masks.
So now we are not worried about the flu...?
This is all very illogical and the economical impacts should not be taken lightly.


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## loosie

> I have a feeling the virus is already all over the United States and the only reason we don't know about it is a lack of test kits and a long incubation period.


Yep, I have a feeling... some from what I've read from all of you here, that it's already all over the world. So... good news for Asians that are copping more racism because of it, if every country has it - there are currently Indian(because apparently they look Chinese according to some...) taxi drivers & the likes unable to get work for eg...

Yes, it's a worry for 'compromised' bodies, but the economic effects and the panic strike me as the the most scary. Stock market's taken a plunge, there are already businesses going bust because they can't get supplies or such, or Asian businesses/workers who can't get custom.


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## Acadianartist

While I agree that precautions need to be taken, and that travel plans, especially to affected destinations, should be questioned, I think panic is worse. People have been watching too many zombie apocalypse shows. I read a great text by a doctor in social media which I think is bang on:

_Abdu Sharkawy
5 mars, 23:45
I'm a doctor and an Infectious Diseases Specialist. I've been at this for more than 20 years seeing sick patients on a daily basis. I have worked in inner city hospitals and in the poorest slums of Africa. HIV-AIDS, Hepatitis,TB, SARS, Measles, Shingles, Whooping cough, Diphtheria...there is little I haven't been exposed to in my profession. And with notable exception of SARS, very little has left me feeling vulnerable, overwhelmed or downright scared.

I am not scared of Covid-19. I am concerned about the implications of a novel infectious agent that has spread the world over and continues to find new footholds in different soil. I am rightly concerned for the welfare of those who are elderly, in frail health or disenfranchised who stand to suffer mostly, and disproportionately, at the hands of this new scourge. But I am not scared of Covid-19.

What I am scared about is the loss of reason and wave of fear that has induced the masses of society into a spellbinding spiral of panic, stockpiling obscene quantities of anything that could fill a bomb shelter adequately in a post-apocalyptic world. I am scared of the N95 masks that are stolen from hospitals and urgent care clinics where they are actually needed for front line healthcare providers and instead are being donned in airports, malls, and coffee lounges, perpetuating even more fear and suspicion of others. I am scared that our hospitals will be overwhelmed with anyone who thinks they " probably don't have it but may as well get checked out no matter what because you just never know..." and those with heart failure, emphysema, pneumonia and strokes will pay the price for overfilled ER waiting rooms with only so many doctors and nurses to assess.

I am scared that travel restrictions will become so far reaching that weddings will be canceled, graduations missed and family reunions will not materialize. And well, even that big party called the Olympic Games...that could be kyboshed too. Can you even
imagine?

I'm scared those same epidemic fears will limit trade, harm partnerships in multiple sectors, business and otherwise and ultimately culminate in a global recession.

But mostly, I'm scared about what message we are telling our kids when faced with a threat. Instead of reason, rationality, openmindedness and altruism, we are telling them to panic, be fearful, suspicious, reactionary and self-interested.

Covid-19 is nowhere near over. It will be coming to a city, a hospital, a friend, even a family member near you at some point. Expect it. Stop waiting to be surprised further. The fact is the virus itself will not likely do much harm when it arrives. But our own behaviors and "fight for yourself above all else" attitude could prove disastrous.

I implore you all. Temper fear with reason, panic with patience and uncertainty with education. We have an opportunity to learn a great deal about health hygiene and limiting the spread of innumerable transmissible diseases in our society. Let's meet this challenge together in the best spirit of compassion for others, patience, and above all, an unfailing effort to seek truth, facts and knowledge as opposed to conjecture, speculation and catastrophizing.

Facts not fear. Clean hands. Open hearts.
Our children will thank us for it.

#washurhands #geturflushot #respect #patiencenotpanic_


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## Horse girl 07

With China who is unable to produce masks worldwide because many of their factories are down and also provide 80% of the antibiotics to the USA which are needed if pneumonia or bronchitis occurs due to the flu, corona virus or anything else -even in people with healthy immune systems. I’m still figuring out the spin on people are better off with out masks. I wonder what else we don’t know that is causing such precautions that I’m sure are not made lightly. I know someone who had planned a cruise ship next month and the cruise ship had emailed them about volunteering return of their money to postpone their trip. It makes much logical sense to me why precautions are being taken for a virus that is spreading so fast around the world that no one can do much about.


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## gottatrot

Something to consider about the statistics for coronavirus is who is being tested. In my area, we are only testing those who come in very ill, so they are needing to be hospitalized. We are not testing those who have minor respiratory illnesses the way we test people for the flu. 
So we really don't know if the coronavirus is deadlier than the flu, and most probably it is not. People are not going to their clinic with a cough and then getting a nasal swab for the coronavirus. We don't have very many test kits and are only testing highly suspected cases (travel out of the country or known exposure, plus a respiratory illness).

If we only tested people for flu who were already seriously ill, we would think the mortality rate was much higher. For example, if we admitted four people to the hospital with serious respiratory illnesses, they tested positive for the flu, and then two of them died, the mortality rate would be 50%. The reality is that most people who test positive for the flu do not get hospitalized, and our testing people who are not hospitalized leads to our knowledge about the lower mortality rates of flu.


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## AnitaAnne

gottatrot said:


> Something to consider about the statistics for coronavirus is who is being tested. In my area, we are only testing those who come in very ill, so they are needing to be hospitalized. We are not testing those who have minor respiratory illnesses the way we test people for the flu.
> So we really don't know if the coronavirus is deadlier than the flu, and most probably it is not. People are not going to their clinic with a cough and then getting a nasal swab for the coronavirus. We don't have very many test kits and are only testing highly suspected cases (travel out of the country or known exposure, plus a respiratory illness).
> 
> If we only tested people for flu who were already seriously ill, we would think the mortality rate was much higher. For example, if we admitted four people to the hospital with serious respiratory illnesses, they tested positive for the flu, and then two of them died, the mortality rate would be 50%. The reality is that most people who test positive for the flu do not get hospitalized, and our testing people who are not hospitalized leads to our knowledge about the lower mortality rates of flu.


This is an excellent point, related to statistics. But lets take it one step further; would it be better to test everyone, as done in the European countries, to get more accurate data and also to identify as many cases as possible? 

Without accurate data, including those who have mild cases not needing treatment, how can we effect appropriate strategies for prevention and treatment?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

loosie said:


> Yes, it's a worry for 'compromised' bodies, but the economic effects and the panic strike me as the the most scary. Stock market's taken a plunge, there are already businesses going bust because they can't get supplies or such, or Asian businesses/workers who can't get custom.


Loosie, I think you have it in a nutshell. The panic is going to kill more than Covid does. I just had dinner at the Golden Dragon tonight, happy to report they're doing a good business regardless. It's inconvenient to not be able find antiseptic wipes at the stores, inconvenient to not be able to find the N95 or N99 masks, inconvenient to not be able to find hand sanitizer, but just about everything boils down to "Wash your hands.". I carry wipes in my purse and a spray sanitizer, and I've made use of both since places that normally have those things out, have had nothing. If nothing else, I'll mix up a dilute bleach solution and carry a small bottle of the and a packet of Kleenex. 

Theses are all precautions we should be taking during the Flu & Cold season anyhow. It's not a brand new thing, Dr's and CDC preach this stuff every year, not just because Covid has reared its ugly head.


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## rambo99

Our church leaders are telling us to have at least ,a two week supply of food storage. We do a two months worth of groceries when we go. Only items we need in-between shopping trips is milk and eggs. 


Hubby and I went grocery shopping this weekend. Business as usual at stores no lack of hand sanitizers, no lack of toilet paper. 

People up here aren't in a panic they are using commen sense. Washing hands a lot. Sanitizing hand and grocery basket handles before touching.

Don't touch face eyes mouth until you've washed hands. I stocked up on alfalfa cubes so no feed store runs for 3 months. 

I pretty much stay home so very little contact with other people. My husband drives truck so minimal contact with people also. He Carry's hand sanitizer with him. 

I have plenty of hand sanitizers and disinfectant wipes on hand,so I have no worry about not beable to find buy it. 

It's something I'm always stocked up on having kids it's a have to have, in flu season.


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## AnitaAnne

There is no hand sanitizer in the stores here, no rubbing alcohol either. No masks, very few gloves. 

People are running to the ED with any hint of a cough. They are running scared...rumors of cases at the hospital, have employees agitated. 

IMO the restaurants will suffer, as we have many, many restaurants in our small town, and people are avoiding eating out. That will mean cutting staff, cutting hours, maybe even closing some.


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## boots

@AnitaAnne - That's so sad.


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## tinyliny

I went shopping today. Not a lot of folks out, but some. No feeling of 'panic'. But, people are not going out as much. Makes for good traffic conditions! 



But, it's amazing that folks are panicking in areas like the Southeast, where so few cases have been deadly, so far.


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## gottatrot

South Korea has been testing tens of thousands of people, so probably have a better idea of the mortality rate of the coronavirus. They have had 44 deaths out of 6,767 cases which would be a fatality rate of 0.7%.

I have heard a prediction from a doctor that with more testing the U.S. mortality rate will most likely end up around 0.1% to 0.5%, similar to the flu and other viruses. 

I find it interesting that only something like 40% of adults get a flu vaccine, even though this is an intervention that can be taken against a virus that has a similar mortality rate to the coronavirus. Apparently we only worry about things that can kill us when we first learn about them. It seems many people weren't even too worried about washing their hands or using hand sanitizer during shopping trips before this outbreak, despite the many viruses we have in public environments.


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## tinyliny

I can't wait for the vaccine!
I'm a thinking about how to take advantage of some screamin' deals on travel and such. Yes, I'm 62, overweight and have mild asthma. I also have the immune system of a mule, and an attitude to boot!


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## loosie

rambo99 said:


> Our church leaders are telling us to have at least ,a two week supply of food storage.


Yeah, I find this sort of thing curious, as, well... nothing says unconditional faith like your church leaders inducing such worry!


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## loosie

gottatrot said:


> It seems many people weren't even too worried about washing their hands or using hand sanitizer during shopping trips before this outbreak, despite the many viruses we have in public environments.


Yeah, funny that - I was using soap & exercising hygeine practices well before it became fashionable - not like me to be _ahead_ of fashion!


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## rambo99

loosie said:


> Yeah, I find this sort of thing curious, as, well... nothing says unconditional faith like your church leaders inducing such worry!


It's called being prepared. It's isn't causing worry at all. If an when this virus hits hard here.

It will take only a day maybe two for grocery store to be emptied when people run out to stock up. Because of the fear the media is putting into people about this virus.

We always have at least 2 weeks worth of food usually more. In the event of a bad storm and we can't get out we have what we need to survive. It can happen don't kid yourself. 

I'm not all worried about this virus but I'm not going to be caught unprepared, I've got kids so I make sure they will be provided for


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## SilverMaple

...and my dad, who has congestive heart failure and has been having issues with fluid around his lungs who has been practicing social distancing and self-quarantining himself for the most part all winter went for some required tests last week at the hospital and picked up a cold/flu. Now he's coughing, full of phlegm, has shortness of breath, but his doctors are trying to decide whether to risk him going to the ER/being admitted or hoping he can survive at home because of all the flu and potential COVID-19 going around in our area and the risks at the hospitals-- if someone tests positive, he'll be stuck there and family will be quarantined at home for two weeks. He can't catch a break. :-( He is scheduled for some more testing with his cardiologist and pulmonologist that took weeks to arrange to figure out why they can't get the fluid to stay away this coming Thursday, but now they don't even know if they want to risk doing that or if he can even do the tests if he's not feeling well. I'm terrified we will lose him :-(


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## Acadianartist

I'm so sorry @SilverMaple. That sounds like a terrible situation to be in.


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## kewpalace

Sorry @SilverMaple - will keep your Dad in my prayers. 

On another note, AQHA has cancelled their convention in Vegas (at South Point) this Weekend. The NRCHA's Stallion Stakes is at South Point starting 3/27. Unless there is a drastic turn of events, it is unlikely they will cancel - but you never know. Crazy ...


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## trailhorserider

SilverMaple said:


> ...and my dad, who has congestive heart failure and has been having issues with fluid around his lungs who has been practicing social distancing and self-quarantining himself for the most part all winter went for some required tests last week at the hospital and picked up a cold/flu. Now he's coughing, full of phlegm, has shortness of breath, but his doctors are trying to decide whether to risk him going to the ER/being admitted or hoping he can survive at home because of all the flu and potential COVID-19 going around in our area and the risks at the hospitals-- if someone tests positive, he'll be stuck there and family will be quarantined at home for two weeks. He can't catch a break. :-( He is scheduled for some more testing with his cardiologist and pulmonologist that took weeks to arrange to figure out why they can't get the fluid to stay away this coming Thursday, but now they don't even know if they want to risk doing that or if he can even do the tests if he's not feeling well. I'm terrified we will lose him :-(



I totally get it. My Mom is on oxygen/CPAP and has all sort of health issues with her lungs and heart too.......pacemaker, retaining fluids, side effects from diabetes, etc. So sorry to hear your Dad is stuck between a rock and a hard place like that. Best wishes for his full recovery. :hug:


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## SilverMaple

Thanks. My dad and I are very close. He's so frustrated in amongst not feeling well! Mom said he was breathing a bit better and his O2 level was up this afternoon, so maybe he's getting over his cold. We shall see. Still, driving 2 hours and then sitting in a waiting room at the big cardiac hospital with the sick and coughing masses for his tests later this week doesn't sound like the world's best idea, either.

Because we have confirmed cases of COVID-19 not that far away, our local clinic has now instituted a policy that anyone with respiratory symptoms/cough/fever or who has been at an event/around a suspected coronavirus patient is asked to call when they arrive in the parking lot for an appointment, and someone will send them a text and or go out to their vehicle to let them know when the doctor is ready to see them, and they enter via the side door to avoid people contaminating the waiting room where everyone else sits. That's a good idea that is relatively simple to implement in smaller communities that may do a lot to help quell fears of contagion.


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## Spanish Rider

An update on our situation in Spain:

There are now several foci across the country, mostly in metropolitan areas, although there is a northern village under quarantine after more than 20 people became infected at a funeral. Nationally, there are now 1000-odd cases in the country (size of Texas, pop. 48 million). The cases in Madrid have doubled from 200+ to 400+ since Saturday, which is not a big number given the population of 6 million. However, my husband has started to cough and become progressively worse since Sunday after attending meetings in Madrid last week, which has us on edge. I am sleeping in another room, but that is something we now do when one of us is sick after passing pneumonia back and forth between us 2 yrs ago. He worked from home today, and will continue to do so.

The problem is that my son and mother are here visiting from the US this week. They are leaving on Monday and will self-quarantine if necessary.


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## SilverMaple

Oh, I hope your husband is ok and you get a good visit with your son and mom. 

20 cases infected from a funeral? That sounds like the strain may be much more virulent than thought. Yikes. One person with the flu is unlikely to infect that many at one event. I saw a report today that an entire church congregations is being quarantined after an officiant tested positive. Large group gatherings are really not wise... it only takes ONE infected person to cause hundreds of others to be quarantined, at best, or ill.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

tinyliny said:


> Who keeps Aloe vera gel around the house all the time? I doubt I have anything like that in the house.



People with fair skin and a penchant for falling asleep in the pool on a floaty while drinking rum and listening to Jimmy Buffett... :tongue::cheers:


Ahem.


Anyway... yes. The US is a republic, consisting of states who do have some autonomy. If the Feds ordered a quarantine, people would raise Aych EE double Hockey Sticks. If they don't, as they're doing now, people are going to raise Aych EE double Hockey Sticks. It's a no win situation.


Me, I'm washing my hands more, using hand sanitizer more, and no, I'm not stocking up on toilet paper.


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## rambo99

The fact is they need to shut down all flights from out of the US. No one leaves the US no one can enter US if they've been out of US during this covid-19 out break.


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## SilverMaple

rambo99 said:


> The fact is they need to shut down all flights from out of the US. No one leaves the US no one can enter US if they've been out of US during this covid-19 out break.



They should have done that the first week of January... no flights/ships/travel into the US. But they didn't over fears it would tank the stock market and the travel industry, and now it's too late.


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## SilverMaple

Right now I'm here at work and every person in today has a cough, sniffles, etc. There's a guy in the meeting room coughing up a storm who is here visiting family from Virginia... I'm bathing in Lysol and wiping down everything anyone touches. I've managed to remain plague-free all winter, but this is not looking promising.


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## Spanish Rider

As I wrote the message above, the government announced the closure of all schools and universities in Madrid, both public and private, for the next 14 days.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

SilverMaple said:


> They should have done that the first week of January... no flights/ships/travel into the US. But they didn't over fears it would tank the stock market and the travel industry, and now it's too late.



The health of the people is first and foremost, so don't take this wrong. at. all... but they're (Government) right to worry about Wall Street. Between the disruption of the supply lines coming out of China, and the panic selling off of stocks, the whole thing could go belly up... we could be looking at a real, Second Great Depression if it does. The delay in acting has been blamed on greed, but I think it's something more than that - I think they're trying to keep our financial system upright and avoid a truly catastrophic stock market crash by trying to downplay the threat and thus prevent panic.



And the toilet paper hoarding... I get it. We can all make fun of it, but we all really know why it's going on. People are panicking. They're going to grab up stuff they can't do without in case of the worst case scenario - and apparently that's TP.


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## Foxhunter

It seems to me that the biggest problem is that this virus does not always show on people. To them it seems like a simple cold/flu and they are soon over it without even knowing they have had it. 

I heard today that there is a case on the Island, he is in hospital isolation. 

When it was talked about on the radio one of the presenters said it might have adverse effect the economy if several people were off work, he said. "Who knows, there might be a shortage of loo rolls!"

This has caused many people to panic buy loo rolls, a picture in the paper showed one woman with two large shopping carts laden with loo rolls and kitchen towels. 

I was laughing about it with my nurse friend and as she said, "Covid does not cause the squitters!"


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## Horsef

Entire Italy has been put on quarantine starting tomorrow morning. They will only be allowed to go to work and to hospitals. All public events and gatherings have been banned - including weddings and funerals. Even soccer games - that tells you something in Italy. It is currently unclear how retailers will be handled.

Also, in our local news there was an interview with an Italian doctor. They are practicality using war times triage and he said so in so many words. They are making decisions on who will and will not receive treatment. Unfortunately, that will be a reality in all affected countries. No healthcare system is capable of servicing this kind of an emergency. Stocking a few million respirators when you typically only need a few thousand just isn’t realistic.
@SilverMaple I am sorry you are going through this. My mum would be heavily affected as well if she caught it so I sympathize wholeheartedly.


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## Acadianartist

Things are ramping up quickly here as well. There are zero cases in eastern Canada, and only a single death so far in all of Canada, but we just had our Spring Break. The provincial government of New Brunswick has just ordered that anyone having been on international travel (not just to affected countries!) needs to stay out of school / daycare for the next 14 days. That may not sound very radical, but there are massive amounts of people coming back from international destinations right now. And tomorrow, I go back to my university students who have also been traveling, but are not being told to stay home. Guess I'll be keeping my distance from them as much as possible. Glad we didn't go anywhere for Spring break. 

The Canadian government has also told people to stop going on cruises after having to repatriate sick Canadians from cruise ships several times. 

I still don't think anyone needs to panic, but it concerns me that things seem to be getting worse fairly quickly.


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## Spanish Rider

A colleague/friend who is an ER physician was supposed to come over tonight for dinner. She called yesterday to confirm, saying that they only have three covid patients, all in isolation, everything looking good, etc. Now she has just received a call saying that a patient she admitted yesterday with entirely different symptom has tested positive (all patients tested at admittance). 

So, yes, there are atyipical patients. And if an ER physician cannot identify them, we should assume that the spread is larger and that only the worst cases are being identified, which is good news bc the death rates are actually much lower.


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## Spanish Rider

Amherst College is sending their kids home - everyone out by Monday. Classes will still be given online. While Amherst is very small, it is in the same town as UMASS, with tens of thousands of students. So, I am assuming that other New England colleges with be quickly following suit, meaning that my son will be 'stuck' here, without a campus to go back to and without a computer to follow the online classes.


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## Captain Evil

@Spanish Rider. Oh, that isn't good. No way to access a computer? Any way he can stay with a fellow student over in Massachusetts?

I can't imagine how people are coping with school closures and such. Many families have two working parents...


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## SilverMaple

Our state does not allow online classes for grade/middle/high school--- too many families do not have access to the internet still, or can't afford it, so the state has said they must offer classes in person, and not require anything outside of school hours that requires internet.

So... if they close schools here, they'll have to make it up. There may be a lot of kids going to school all summer. I don't think a lot of people realize that online classes are not an option for huge swathes of the US outside of urban areas, where internet is still slow, expensive, and/or unreliable if it's available at all.


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## egrogan

SilverMaple said:


> I don't think a lot of people realize that online classes are not an option for huge swathes of the US outside of urban areas, where internet is still slow, expensive, and/or unreliable if it's available at all.


I've worked in education policy for decades, and I can't tell you how irritating it is that every time someone bothers to think about rural education, the first thing they default to is online education "to reach kids who can't have a [insert high school subject area] teacher in their school because there aren't enough of them." I try to calmly explain to them that I literally can't get internet at my house outside of what I can squeeze out of my phone as a WiFi hotspot, and people still look at me with totally blank stares. We are well past the point when internet should be a public utility, but so many people have no idea just how bad rural access is that they don't care. The latest statistics I saw from the FCC were that 20 million Americans still don't have access to broadband; in rural areas, it's almost 25% of the population.

*Rant over*


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## Spanish Rider

@egrogan , at our summer house in central Maine, we don't have internet either or cell phone coverage (not that I mind bc it is a vacation home). About 10 years ago, my aunt and uncle decided to extend our dock to 100 feet and set up a dish, but it still wasn't far enough out to get coverage from the south.

However, a college classmate of mine was a teacher in central Maine for many years, and she had students who did not even have access to electricity, let alone internet.
@Silver Maple , what state are you in?
@Captain Evil , well, with all the money we would save on college room and board, I could buy him a very snazzy new computer!


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## Captain Evil

We are in Maine, and my folks are thirty or so minutes away. They have a dish, but, it only works when the trees have no leaves... 

We have internet but no cell phone coverage at the house. Our truck has internet, so if we are outside we either run in the house or hop in the truck and turn it on. 

Where my cousin lives they have just started using an online app to deliver at-home learning. The kids have figured out that if enough of them rate the app low enough, eventually it is removed. So they did.


----------



## Spanish Rider

> They have a dish, but, it only works when the trees have no leaves...


:rofl: We're surrounded by white pine!


----------



## SilverMaple

I'm in western Iowa. My parents have satellite internet, but it's unreliable and S.L.O.W. and costs three times what our super-fast fiberoptic option does. And every time the wind blows (which is nearly always) it moves just enough that they might as well not even bother.

Most communities have good internet options, but they're not cheap and many families can't afford it. Rural homes are pretty much stuck with either more expensive, unreliable satellite internet, or using a cell phone as a hotspot.


----------



## Captain Evil

Dear @SilverMaple

I just clicked on the Horses:3 at the bottom of your post to visit your horses, and I gotta say, they look kinda skinny:









And how do you tell them apart?


----------



## ACinATX

I came home early from work today and my husband was already home. He said his work was suggesting that everyone work from home. It's a large tech company.
@Captain Evil LOL


----------



## SilverMaple

Captain Evil said:


> Dear @*SilverMaple*
> 
> I just clicked on the Horses:3 at the bottom of your post to visit your horses, and I gotta say, they look kinda skinny:
> 
> View attachment 1006099
> 
> 
> And how do you tell them apart?



They all have different socks 


I'll have to upload some photos, lol.


----------



## loosie

rambo99 said:


> The fact is they need to shut down all flights from out of the US. No one leaves the US no one can enter US if they've been out of US during this covid-19 out break.


Seems to me that would be shutting the stable door... weeks after the horse bolted. Should have been done immediately, but don't see much point now.


----------



## loosie

SilverMaple said:


> lot of people realize that online classes are not an option for huge swathes of the US outside of urban areas, where internet is still slow, expensive, and/or unreliable if it's available at all.


There's always 2 way. Bring back the pedal wireless!


----------



## RegalCharm

The time for containment is done past for this virus and all that is left is to wait and see how many will come down sick and how many will die.

In the news last week a girl flew back from Italy to Chicago, took an AmTrak train home to Missouri and went into self quarantine . Her Dad and younger sister then went to a Father Daughter dance at girls school. They then learned that the oldest daughter tested positive for the corona virus so they left the dance and went home. So how many did the traveling daughter and the father younger daughter infect and how many did those exposed to these people infect???? And this is only one example of people in self quarantine not staying isolated from the public. There are others who did the same thing. 

Harvard is cancelling all classes for 14 days and going to do online classes ,, so what if one of the students makes contact with someone who is carrying the virus after 12 days and then attends classes the 15th day? 

In the news today one of the passengers on the cruise ship that just docked in California is still testing positive for the virus after 30 days. All his symptoms amounted to was a cough and fever. 

The city in China where the corona virus started is just 20 miles from a Chinese biohazard level 4 facility. So who knows whether they were working to find a vaccine to fight this strain escaped or were developing it as a weapon and it escaped or was let loose on the local population. The leading Chinese Dr. working on this virus died a while back from it. And the Chinese Government will not let hardly any information out to other countries.


----------



## Acadianartist

Does anyone have any info on whether this strain of coronavirus can infect horses? I thought not... did a search and found some sources saying it cannot (Covid-19, that is even though other strains can), but nothing that seemed to come from a medical or veterinarian source. 

The barn where my daughter does lessons sometimes has told students coming back from spring break that they need to stay away for two weeks because the horses can get it. It doesn't affect me directly since we haven't left the country, but I'm curious now. The BO claims to have spoken to a provincial vet but I find it hard to believe. I know a dog was diagnosed in China though, so I'm now wondering if they're just not really sure. 

Not trying to be alarmist here at all, just looking for confirmation that this cannot be transmitted human to horse.


----------



## ApuetsoT

Acadianartist said:


> Does anyone have any info on whether this strain of coronavirus can infect horses? I thought not... did a search and found some sources saying it cannot (Covid-19, that is even though other strains can), but nothing that seemed to come from a medical or veterinarian source.
> 
> The barn where my daughter does lessons sometimes has told students coming back from spring break that they need to stay away for two weeks because the horses can get it. It doesn't affect me directly since we haven't left the country, but I'm curious now. The BO claims to have spoken to a provincial vet but I find it hard to believe. I know a dog was diagnosed in China though, so I'm now wondering if they're just not really sure.
> 
> Not trying to be alarmist here at all, just looking for confirmation that this cannot be transmitted human to horse.



My understanding(from what I've heard from vets, but they don't really know for sure either) is no, unless it mutates again it's not going to infect animals. The dog in China had the virus on it, like any surface would, not that it was infected with it.


Ultimately, I guess we don't know yet.


----------



## SilverMaple

DH has a bad sinus infection and went to the doctor this afternoon. Dr. is a friend of ours. He asked her if they'd tested anyone for COVID-19 and she laughed and said the protocol from the CDC was such a mess, it was going to get bad, and soon. In our area, at least, they aren't allowed to test even those with symptoms without CDC approval. So, if you call or report to a clinic or hospital with a cough and fever, they are supposed to have you leave, untreated, and then call the CDC from your home. The CDC will then decide if you are to remain quarantined at home, or are to be tested, or are supposed to self-report to the nearest containment unit with a bed. And you have to go on your own, as our area ambulance crews are all volunteer, and they are being told not to respond to any emergency call for fever/cough/respiratory distress, and instead to have those callers contact the CDC for instructions. And since there are TWO beds in the containment unit for everyone in a 100-mile radius, if they're full when you call, you don't get help, regardless of how sick you might be. The doctor has a daughter with a lung condition. She pulled her from school two weeks ago and sent her to stay with an aunt who lives on a ranch in western Nebraska for the forseeable future-- nobody goes in, and nobody out. She says it's only a matter of time-- a week, a month, who knows, before it explodes in the US because they are being told only the sickest people can be tested even though there are plenty of tests available, so there are likely thousands or tens of thousands of people nationwide who are walking around infecting others who will then infect still more. The whole thing is being swept under the rug by our esteemed government leaders in the hopes that 'warm weather will make it die down.' Which it likely will not do. Singapore and many areas where this is spreading rapidly are warm climates, and it seems to be making no difference in the spread. In rural areas, there just aren't enough containment units and/or ventilator capabilities in the medical facilities available, and people will be dying after being turned away from care. 

This is worrisome. She's not usually an alarmist in the slightest, but she says this is extremely concerning, the government response has been appalling, ill people are going untested and allowed to continue infecting others, all in the name of 'preventing alarmism.' She said stock up on a few weeks' worth of essential supplies, don't go anywhere you don't absolutely have to, stay at least six feet from anyone, wash hands/sanitize obsessively, and hope for the best.


----------



## SueC

Hullo! @Spanish Rider, here's the most recent update on the Australian (and general) situation by Dr Norman Swan, who runs our health report on the ABC. This is a decent, non-sensationalised source. Short video here:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-09/dr-norman-swan-with-a-coronavirus-reality-check/12040538


----------



## Foxhunter

My eldest niece has been working as a teacher in Milan, N. Italy, she flew back to the UK at the weekend just before all travel was enforced. She and a fellow teacher are in isolation at her parents house whilst her parents are away for three weeks at their cottage in Wales. 

This is self isolation not imposed by the government. Sensible thing to do. 

Mind you, whether they will,still be friends after two or three weeks being cooped up together is another matter!

How about this for common sense? 

A woman I know who is a catholic, went Mass on Sunday. It was announced that they were not to kiss the priest's hand, sensible. 

Then they passed the chalice along the line which all were drinking from!


----------



## Ridingthatgrey

It hasn't came to my county yet but Its in Alachua county Florida and im located in Bradford county. I really hope none of my family members get sick mostly my 98 year old grandma who has stage 4 .Praying so much


----------



## Horse girl 07

New York- my mom had surgery last week they moved her to a rehab last night until she can get stronger and blood pressure regulated. My concern was if they would stop allowing visitors as I have been watching and it is what they are doing in nursing homes. I know she needs to make sure her blood pressure is regulated otherwise she will end up back in er which would be going backwards. I went to rehab to visit last night and they are checking people’s temps and making sure everyone uses hand sanitizers before they enter. I could not get in since they changed visits hours from 9:00- 9:00 to 9:00-5:00 due to prevention of the virus to patients. Today I called early this morning today and they are not letting any family/ friends visit at all to protect the patients from the virus - now I can understand cutting down risk to the patience it just is upsetting. I am also concerned if a health care worker does bring in the virus to the rehab if it will then be quarantined and she may be stuck there. I did get a letter from the school a worker was in contact with someone who was in contact with a positive with the corona virus. She had left the school and went home right away after she received a call from her friend. Test pending.


----------



## updownrider

I’m in NY in the county where it is spreading and has a 1 mile containment. I’m miles from that area but not far enough, IMO. There’s no water, disinfectant, wipes of any kind, bleach, alcohol, aloe, etc. on shelves at stores. There is, however, a lot of toilet paper.


----------



## jaydee

updownrider said:


> I’m in NY in the county where it is spreading and has a 1 mile containment. I’m miles from that area but not far enough, IMO. There’s no water, disinfectant, wipes of any kind, bleach, alcohol, aloe, etc. on shelves at stores. There is, however, a lot of toilet paper.


Maybe they can send their surplus toilet paper to the UK!


----------



## egrogan

On a horsey-related note, the podcast "Horses in the Morning" is starting to do a regular update on horse activities that are being cancelled. We can't post FB links here, but it seems they will update their FB page with those event changes as they have them.

This is what they shared this morning:


> Coronavirus Update: I will start putting out regular updates on Coronavirus as it affects all of us in the horse world. (Please share.) Here is the latest as of this morning:
> **The American Quarter Horse Association announced the cancellation of the 2020 AQHA Convention in March. That is one of the largest conventions in the horse world.
> **Yonkers Horseman John Brennan Dies of Coronavirus, cancels days of racing.
> **The Emirates Racing Authority announced that spectators were banned from meets in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) for several days.
> ** USEF issued a letter saying " (USEF) is closely monitoring the information regarding the Coronavirus outbreak. Our number one priority is the safety and welfare of our members,
> staff and their families. While the current number of cases in the United States is low, we recognize the growing concerns of our community with respect to the potential for an increase
> in cases in coming weeks.
> **The eleventh Saut Hermès at the Grand Palais, due to take place in Paris from 20 to 22 March 2020, is cancelled.
> **Longines Masters of Hong Kong Cancelled Due to Coronavirus Outbreak
> ** Land Rover Three Day Event also issued a letter stating they are also closely monitoring the situation but as of now they are on for the end of April.


----------



## AnitaAnne

The cases seem to be increasing quickly over here...


----------



## Captain Evil

Small potatoes in the realm of things, but our Virgin Gorda trip is crumbling before our very eyes... 12 reservations, 5 cancellations due to Corona Fear...
...and three more people are surely going to cancel because they are scared to death of being quarantined overseas.

The cancelation guys can re-book their flights for another time and another place, but they are in for the villa, vans, and diving, unless we can work something out with the villa owners.

Working on that now.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Captain Evil said:


> Small potatoes in the realm of things, but our Virgin Gorda trip is crumbling before our very eyes... 12 reservations, 5 cancellations due to Corona Fear...
> ...and three more people are surely going to cancel because they are scared to death of being quarantined overseas.
> 
> The cancelation guys can re-book their flights for another time and another place, but they are in for the villa, vans, and diving, unless we can work something out with the villa owners.
> 
> Working on that now.


Events are being cancelled all over. Very unfortunate when your livelihood is dependent in part or wholly on travel.


----------



## Ridingthatgrey

Well they just announced that they have found cases where i live now ughh but i go to lake butler school and they say if we get it we will cancel school and we will have school during the summer which sucks!


----------



## egrogan

Another conference I was supposed to be at in North Carolina the week of 3/30 just cancelled


----------



## Ridingthatgrey

Can I my horses get the virus? And my goat who is pregnant


----------



## SilverMaple

If you have loved ones in the hospital, a care facility, group home, or nursing home-- make sure they have any supplies they will need for several weeks or more in the event the facility is closed or quarantined. Facilities here have said that once cases are confirmed in the county, nursing and care facilities will be closed with no visitors, and no exceptions-- not even if someone is dying. :-( Our area nursing homes are encouraging families to set up online video chat accounts and showing residents how to use them, or you can call and they will help the resident reach you at an appointed time with one of the facilities' ipads. If you have family members who would appreciate that, please get that set up now before they close the facilities. As this spreads, closed healthcare facilities, nursing homes, etc. are inevitable. 

My sister-in-law is an ER doctor at a large hospital. She has moved out of their home and into an apartment near the hospital with a couple of nurses that work her shift. They know that as soon as the first confirmed case has gone through their ER, anyone who had contact with that person during their ER visit will be quarantined and she doesn't want to take it home to her husband or children, and its only a matter of time before that case is confirmed; they've had several people through in the past week who have recently returned from international travel with symptoms, but so far haven't been able to get testing for any of them--- so staff has probably already been exposed and are quarantining themselves with other staff members, and not at home if they possibly can avoid it. Make plans for if you are quarantined should someone at your workplace, school, or someone who visited an event you attended later test positive. Will you go home and thus quarantine other family members as well? Stay with other quarantined co-workers? Know what you will do ahead of time so there's less panic when/if it happens.


----------



## Foxhunter

I haven't been to a big store only because I do not need anything. I did stop to get some bread in a convenience store and that, normally fairly busy, was practically empty. 

My cousin did do a normal shop for the week and says that many shelves are empty. Pasta, rice and toilet rolls all gone! 

I'm OK, have plenty of pasta, some rice, freezers are fairly full of meat and veggies. I'll survive any shut down!


----------



## ACinATX

SilverMaple said:


> The whole thing is being swept under the rug by our esteemed government leaders in the hopes that 'warm weather will make it die down.' Which it likely will not do. Singapore and many areas where this is spreading rapidly are warm climates, and it seems to be making no difference in the spread. In rural areas, there just aren't enough containment units and/or ventilator capabilities in the medical facilities available, and people will be dying after being turned away from care.
> 
> This is worrisome. She's not usually an alarmist in the slightest, but she says this is extremely concerning, the government response has been appalling, ill people are going untested and allowed to continue infecting others, all in the name of 'preventing alarmism.'


I really agree with your choice of word: appalling. Hard to not get political. Really hard. Gov't needs to get its act together.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Hey, @SueC!

I had written this earlier, but don't see it posted.

Congress is now shut down in Spain after 2 congressional leaders have tested positive, one of which was at a rally with hundreds of people on Sunday.

We are also hearing rumors that Madrid, with a population of 6 million+, will be quarantined. Time will tell. Really horrible stories coming out of Italy, so it would seem officials here are trying to take a more extreme approach.


Also, my son's college in Massachusetts is sending kids home. Classes will be done online. The question now is whether lab classes will be delayed/re-scheduled.


----------



## tinyliny

Washington State here. Our governer has now made illegal any gatherings of more than 250 persons. No concerts, sports matches, conferences , etc. This will be a HUGE economic blow to our city (Seattle) which has a thriving tourist and convention business. 



I live in the suburbs. I am not changing my lifestyle radically. I go to the supermarket, to my gym, etc. But, I wipe with sanitizer, everything, and wash my hands the instant I come in the door.


If only they could come out with a weakened variety of the virus that we could willingly expose ourselves to, in order to create immunity.


I'm hearing some scary things from Italy that make me believe that it's going to get much worse before it gets better.


----------



## loosie

SueC said:


> Hullo! @Spanish Rider, here's the most recent update on the Australian (and general) situation by Dr Norman Swan, who runs our health report on the ABC. This is a decent, non-sensationalised source. Short video here:
> 
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-09/dr-norman-swan-with-a-coronavirus-reality-check/12040538


Sue, maybe cos I'm on my fone, the link wouldn't work for me & I missed the 7.30 report. Summary??


----------



## egrogan

@Spanish Rider, if I'm remembering you have other family in MA, but if your son needs a place to go and you don't want to bring him back to Spain, we're just a short drive up I-91 and have more than enough room to host him if needed. I can't promise great Internet service, but it works most of the time :wink:


----------



## SueC

You can try at the bottom of this article, @loosie - there's another copy of the clip there: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...w-doctor-calls-for-sydney-quarantine/12040128

Does that work for you?


----------



## RegalCharm

trying to get some perspective on this .5 to 1% lethality of this virus. The Horse forum has 78,355 members so applying the lethality rate which stated in an earlier post. What would be the number of forum members who would die?
I don't trust my math on this one. So please double check my math.
@ .5% I come up with 391.... 78355 X .5% =391


----------



## egrogan

^^Correct


----------



## Spanish Rider

@egrogan , that's so sweet! Thank you, but he will be staying with my mother. She's already got a list of things she wants him to do around the house!:rofl:


----------



## SueC

RegalCharm said:


> trying to get some perspective on this .5 to 1% lethality of this virus. The Horse forum has 78,355 members so applying the lethality rate which stated in an earlier post. What would be the number of forum members who would die?
> I don't trust my math on this one. So please double check my math.
> @ .5% I come up with 391.... 78355 X .5% =391


It's important to remember that much of the mortality from COVID-19 and flu is amongst people who are very elderly, or immunocompromised for other reasons.

I think it would also be great if we could share personal strategies we've successfully used in the past to reduce our rate of catching things like flu, or at least the severity of it - as this will be helpful in improving the situation for everyone. How you keep your immune system in peak condition etc.

I did a post on this somewhere else but it's a bit long to "reprint" here and not quite in context...


----------



## Horsef

I just came back from the supermarket and one thing I noticed is that there were no children at all - so well done to all the parents. Except that one idiot who brought her 5 year old and let him cough all over the vacuumed deli meat. And lick the shopping cart handle. Moron.


----------



## egrogan

Spanish Rider said:


> @*egrogan* , that's so sweet! Thank you, but he will be staying with my mother. She's already got a list of things she wants him to do around the house!:rofl:


I thought that was the case, but figured I'd put it out there. And, if he runs out of chores with your mom, we have no shortage of those here-it's spring cleaning time! :rofl:


----------



## AnitaAnne

I heard 81% mild symptoms, all recover. 14% moderate symptoms, all recover. 5% severe symptoms needing intensive care (1/2 of these recover) 2.5% mortality rate.


----------



## pheobe111

@Acadianartist did you hear about the 3 cases in NB


----------



## SueC

@Spanish Rider, re your original post, here is the Western Australian pandemic plan that's just been released:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-11/wa-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-plan-explained/12045932


----------



## SueC

loosie said:


> ...And over here, people are buying up all the... toilet paper??! WTH? And anyway, they forget, we've still got the Murdoch papers to use...


I only just saw this.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

And yeah, I totally agree with you, there's acres of Murdoch papers, the best use of all of which would be for toilet paper! Great reminder, thank you! 

...and after all, in bygone times in the great Australian outdoor dunnies, this is exactly how it used to be done!


----------



## SueC

tinyliny said:


> I was really bummed to hear about SXSW being cancelled. Isn't that going a bit to extremes?
> 
> Here in Seattle, they cancelled Comic Con, a HUGE convention here. They postponed it.
> 
> This whole panic and overreacting by cancelling all these events, and economic impact it is having (which is going to get way worse), is FAR FAR more damaging to our country than the impacts of the illness itself.


While I agree with you about all that, I thought you might be interested to see the financial reasons why Dark Mofo was just cancelled in Tasmania - in that case, it was a financial risk decision before it was a public health mandate:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-11/dark-mofo-2020-cancelled-due-to-coronavirus-fears/12044738

The organiser needed to cut his losses now and not potentially end up with many more millions out of pocket, which would have been the end of Dark Mofo, full stop, rather than missing the festival this year only.


----------



## Acadianartist

pheobe111 said:


> @*Acadianartist* did you hear about the 3 cases in NB


I heard about one (looks like Moncton area), then saw a news story about three, but when I clicked on it, there was only one. So there's a fair bit of confusion going on. But things are definitely moving fast. 

I took the precaution of emailing my students tonight, on the eve of a big test, to tell them that if they have flu-like symptoms or have just returned from vacation (our spring break just ended last week) and feel they should self-isolate, I will work with them online to get them through the rest of the term. This after a student spent all of yesterday's class coughing and actually got so sick she had to leave, and another emailed me earlier today saying she had just returned from a trip and her travel partner was getting tested for Covid-19, and she wasn't feeling great either. 

Universities are starting to move to online delivery of courses. Our education minister has told people who have traveled outside the country that they need to stay away from schools and daycares for 14 days. Yet my kids told me that some of their classmates had traveled and were sent to school anyway. They are just laughing about it (not my kids, they're horrified - we're not rule-breakers in my family). 

Meanwhile, my parents are getting ready to go to Florida on Monday. I think it's a terrible idea, but it's unlikely they will listen to me. So I will have to tell them that when they get back, they are not welcome to visit us for 14 days. 

It feels like this is progressing fast now.


----------



## pheobe111

Acadianartist said:


> pheobe111 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @*Acadianartist* did you hear about the 3 cases in NB
> 
> 
> 
> I heard about one (looks like Moncton area), then saw a news story about three, but when I clicked on it, there was only one. So there's a fair bit of confusion going on. But things are definitely moving fast.
> 
> I took the precaution of emailing my students tonight, on the eve of a big test, to tell them that if they have flu-like symptoms or have just returned from vacation (our spring break just ended last week) and feel they should self-isolate, I will work with them online to get them through the rest of the term. This after a student spent all of yesterday's class coughing and actually got so sick she had to leave, and another emailed me earlier today saying she had just returned from a trip and her travel partner was getting tested for Covid-19, and she wasn't feeling great either.
> 
> Universities are starting to move to online delivery of courses. Our education minister has told people who have traveled outside the country that they need to stay away from schools and daycares for 14 days. Yet my kids told me that some of their classmates had traveled and were sent to school anyway. They are just laughing about it (not my kids, they're horrified - we're not rule-breakers in my family).
> 
> Meanwhile, my parents are getting ready to go to Florida on Monday. I think it's a terrible idea, but it's unlikely they will listen to me. So I will have to tell them that when they get back, they are not welcome to visit us for 14 days.
> 
> It feels like this is progressing fast now.
Click to expand...

Yeah, my university (Acadia) is sending out emails like crazy telling students to stay away if theyre experiencing any flu like symptoms. But i guess theyre on high alert considering acadia is one of, if not the, top international school in canada.


----------



## Acadianartist

pheobe111 said:


> Yeah, my university (Acadia) is sending out emails like crazy telling students to stay away if theyre experiencing any flu like symptoms. But i guess theyre on high alert considering acadia is one of, if not the, top international school in canada.


It's the timing that is terrible. Everyone is just coming back from March break. Students have just been all over the world, mingling with people from everywhere, and are now concentrating all those germs on campuses everywhere. 

I suspect we will see some universities go to online course delivery before the end of term. Stay healthy! Wash your hands and use hand sanitizer! At least people aren't hoarding yet here. Although I heard Costco was running low on toilet paper, but I was in Walmart today and there is lots of everything.


----------



## SueC

SilverMaple said:


> 20 cases infected from a funeral? That sounds like the strain may be much more virulent than thought. Yikes. One person with the flu is unlikely to infect that many at one event. I saw a report today that an entire church congregations is being quarantined after an officiant tested positive. Large group gatherings are really not wise... it only takes ONE infected person to cause hundreds of others to be quarantined, at best, or ill.


While COVID-19 is more infectious than "standard" influenzas etc, we also have to remember that funerals (especially in Mediterranean cultures) tend to involve lots of hugging, kissing and close body contact, shared food, and shared public spaces potentially filled with respiratory aerosols.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Personally I think the food industry will be the hardest hit in all this. Will be many low paid employees out of work. Struggling ones will disappear, as will Mom & Pop places. 

Unemployment rates will soar. 

People will get their coffee from home...

Schools can all go online, and may not go back to classrooms. What to do with all the buildings??? 

The world as we know it is changing fast...


----------



## Spanish Rider

It's 3:30 am. Woken 1 hour ago by sister in US. Trump shutting down borders. Got online tickets with British Airways for both mum and son, through London. Prices doubled as I clicked "reserve". They are packing now, leaving in 1 hour.

I will not be taking my 16 yo son, who is ill (undiagnosed), back to school until we get the "all clear".

Godspeed


----------



## SueC

Captain Evil said:


> We have internet but no cell phone coverage at the house.


We have exactly that situation, and we're in rural Western Australia, 25km from a regional centre (and the moon landing was 50 years ago...).

And I know this is off topic, but I was just informed by the Australian Tax Office that as of the end of this month, they will no longer let us lodge our business tax paperwork on an online computer - they are attempting to make everyone use a smartphone app, because they say this is "safer"...

1) I don't have, and don't want, a smartphone.

2) Even if I had one, we don't get reliable cellphone reception here.

3) I am riled by the idea that while all my business spreadsheets and records are on my desktop computer with its two nice large screens, at which I already have to wear glasses to prevent eye strain, some thoughtless bureaucrats are trying to force me to read things on postage-stamp screens which don't have a decent keyboard attached either.

I'm going to have to lodge on paper again, which I can probably do for the quarterly activity statements; but there is a part of business tax returns that can only be done online, or through an accountant. We don't employ an accountant, and won't ever again after I noticed that an accountant we initially employed when we started our business had made grave errors on our tax returns for three years running - and I had to call the Tax Department, discuss it with them, and then spend two years on and off (because I actually have other work to do) sorting through the mess he'd submitted, fixing it, and resubmitting everything, after which I decided that I may as well save myself the money and use my new hard-won skills.

I'm not sure if I'm the only person running an Australian business who doesn't use an accountant and has no cellphone reception, nor a smartphone, but I'm probably going to have to enter a lengthy process with the ATO about that and am not looking forward to it at all... :|

/end rant


----------



## rambo99

No cases of covid-19 in my area but there are some way South of here. Plan of action already in the making. As far as our church goes. 

Our family is prepared as far as groceries and feed for our animals. We have always kept at least 2 weeks supply for us an animals way before this covid-19 started. Washing hands and using hand sanitizers. Plus disinfect wipes on counter tops, door knobs and anything everyone touches. 

Lots of Lysol sprayed also. 

I'm getting sick hope it just plain old influenza. Sore throat coughing and just feel yucky no fever.


----------



## SueC

Back on topic, something light-hearted for anyone who likes British alternative music:










:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

PS: Laughter reduces stress and thereby improves immunity.


----------



## boots

We have our first confirmed case in town. 

Oh well, here we go.


----------



## SueC

Who wants to wear a garlic necklace? It will keep people at arm's length, and give you a steady supply of antivirals / immune boosters / miscellaneous nutrients to munch on... :Angel:


----------



## SilverMaple

A coworker of my husband and her family are quarantined after people who attended the same high school basketball games in Nebraska were confirmed positive for Covid-19. Here we go....


----------



## loosie

Yes, there is unreasonable panic, hyped up reporting, but I just got angry watching the news... Our Prime Minister Scummo has announced that he's going to the footy on the weekend, and the Grand Prix motor event shouldn't be cancelled, because there aren't that many infected over here - I think I heard 28 people so far in Vic - and so there's no need to take further action, until such time as there may be an epidemic of it over here. 

Oh and you can only catch it if you have 15 minutes of close face to face contact, or spend over 2 hours in a room with someone infected... According to our wonderous media.


----------



## Horsef

SueC said:


> While COVID-19 is more infectious than "standard" influenzas etc, we also have to remember that funerals (especially in Mediterranean cultures) tend to involve lots of hugging, kissing and close body contact, shared food, and shared public spaces potentially filled with respiratory aerosols.


Absolutely. A lot of us even have customs to serve some food right there at the grave after the funeral. The food sits right there in the open for the duration of the ceremony, for everyone to sneeze into as they please. And it’s typically eaten without utensils, ie using your unwashed hands. Yuck. I avoid that food even without the virus but it can be seen as rude to refuse as it has a spiritual meaning.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Spanish Rider said:


> It's 3:30 am. Woken 1 hour ago by sister in US. Trump shutting down borders. Got online tickets with British Airways for both mum and son, through London. Prices doubled as I clicked "reserve". They are packing now, leaving in 1 hour.
> 
> I will not be taking my 16 yo son, who is ill (undiagnosed), back to school until we get the "all clear".
> 
> Godspeed


He is shutting the barn doors after the horse has left...


----------



## Spanish Rider

They made it! Took us 10 hours, but got them on a flight to Miami. Nowhere near Boston, but at least it's the US.

Clarification: when I said my son was ill, it's a cardiac/renal pathology. I wouldn't want anyone to think we were propagating the virus.


----------



## SueC

@Spanish Rider, a friend linked me to this hilarious article which I think you will enjoy, as well as the other suggested articles on the topic. :rofl: Do you know anything about this paper? I've never heard of it before... it reads like our charity paper done by university students, called Prosh...

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/0...preading-10000-times-faster-than-coronavirus/



> "Becoming a complete _marron_ during an infectious disease outbreak is far more viral than we first thought,” said Dr. Jeanne Smith of Toronto Public Health. “Fact resistance is abnormally high especially among the dullard population, and the bottom 5% of your graduating high school class.”
> 
> Patients are usually asymptomatic until they open their mouths or start tweeting.


----------



## kewpalace

And now the Road to the Horse has cancelled ... or as they put it, "postponed" ..



> In an abundance of caution, the decision has been made to postpone Road to the Horse, scheduled for March 19-22, at the Kentucky Horse Park’s Alltech Arena. This decision was made today in conjunction with the Kentucky Tourism, Arts and Heritage Cabinet, the Kentucky Horse Park, and in consultation with the Governor’s Office as part of the Commonwealth’s ongoing effort to ensure the health and wellness of the public as Kentucky fights aggressively to prevent the spread of COVID-19.


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## SilverMaple

Read this. We have a very short time to get this stopped, and for the most part, we're doing nothing, our government is downplaying it, and people are saying 'it's only a bad cold' and complaining that some sporting events are cancelled. We can either shut things down for a few weeks and be inconvenienced, or we can continue on our current path and face the consequences of far more deaths, overwhelmed health care systems, and shutdowns that last much longer. Case numbers are far, far higher than they appear, and our country is dragging it's feet and spreading falsehoods and doing too little too late. 

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca


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## Remali

I'm in the upper midwest (U.S.). I am real disgusted and disappointed at the slow response here in the U.S., and we still are not testing enough here so we really have no clue and no idea how many have already been infected. so there is really no way they can do anything until we have those numbers available. And the misinformation is off the charts. 

And then I heard that our admininstration here in the U.S. declined to take the tests the WHO offered, back in February when they were offering it to all countries... So as a result, the U.S. is very very far behind, and it is basically way too late now, and this new ban on travel they issued today is a joke... too little too late, it is already here. It's worrisome and will surely hit the poor hard, I was thinking just this morning, with so many things closing and cutting back... what if food pantries close, many families depend on that. And no plan here in the U.S. for any of this. So many things to consider.

I have a few serious chronic health issues, that put me at high-risk... as well as being over 60 (oy!), so I am trying to be very careful, limit where I go and what I do. But, it really is criminal what our government here has done, or, I should say, has not done. Never thought I'd see anything like this here. And so many in my town (about 60,000 population) are not taking this seriously and actually laughing about it. OK, rant over. 

~Renee


----------



## aubie

The man making rounds doing interviews from hospital, is less than an hour from here. He believes he got it singing in a 100 person choir as he has not been out of the country. Just seems like it's creeping in.


----------



## AnitaAnne

I would think restaurants and cash money as the main culprits of spreading fast.


----------



## Remali

It does really seem to be affecting communities more now, it isn't just from people outside of the U.S. I think it has been here in the U.S. for quite awhile and we never knew it. Last I heard we have 6 cases in Wisconsin, one is in the county next to me. I'm just gonna hang out at home with my dog, and if I feel like I need to get out and go somewhere, I'll just take a nice relaxing drive in my car on a country back road or through a park. I am now very glad I missed one of our local music events about a week and a half ago (3 nights, over 40 bands), I was not able to go and was sure bummed out about it at the time, but, now I am pretty relieved I didn't go.


----------



## RegalCharm

Spanish Rider said:


> It's 3:30 am. Woken 1 hour ago by sister in US. Trump shutting down borders. Got online tickets with British Airways for both mum and son, through London. Prices doubled as I clicked "reserve". They are packing now, leaving in 1 hour.
> 
> I will not be taking my 16 yo son, who is ill (undiagnosed), back to school until we get the "all clear".
> 
> Godspeed


Only people flying from Europe and it does not go into effect until Friday at Midnight. The UK and Ireland are not on the list so travel from those countries is allowed. Hope your mom and son have safe travels and are not exposed to anyone on the plane who is positive for the virus. 



SueC said:


> Who wants to wear a garlic necklace? It will keep people at arm's length, and give you a steady supply of antivirals / immune boosters / miscellaneous nutrients to munch on...


I thought a garlic necklace was for these guys








loosie said:


> Yes, there is unreasonable panic, hyped up reporting, but I just got angry watching the news... Our Prime Minister Scummo has announced that he's going to the footy on the weekend, and the Grand Prix motor event shouldn't be cancelled, because there aren't that many infected over here - I think I heard 28 people so far in Vic - and so there's no need to take further action, until such time as there may be an epidemic of it over here.
> 
> Oh and you can only catch it if you have 15 minutes of close face to face contact, or spend over 2 hours in a room with someone infected... According to our wonderous media.


It was on the news that the virus can live 3 days on surfaces.


----------



## SilverMaple

Remali said:


> I'm in the upper midwest (U.S.). I am real disgusted and disappointed at the slow response here in the U.S., and we still are not testing enough here so we really have no clue and no idea how many have already been infected. so there is really no way they can do anything until we have those numbers available. And the misinformation is off the charts.
> 
> And then I heard that our admininstration here in the U.S. declined to take the tests the WHO offered, back in February when they were offering it to all countries... So as a result, the U.S. is very very far behind, and it is basically way too late now, and this new ban on travel they issued today is a joke... too little too late, it is already here. It's worrisome and will surely hit the poor hard, I was thinking just this morning, with so many things closing and cutting back... what if food pantries close, many families depend on that. And no plan here in the U.S. for any of this. So many things to consider.
> 
> I have a few serious chronic health issues, that put me at high-risk... as well as being over 60 (oy!), so I am trying to be very careful, limit where I go and what I do. But, it really is criminal what our government here has done, or, I should say, has not done. Never thought I'd see anything like this here. And so many in my town (about 60,000 population) are not taking this seriously and actually laughing about it. OK, rant over.
> 
> ~Renee



Yes, this. Exactly. I just listened to a group of senior citizens loudly proclaiming that the "whole thing is a hoax started by the Democrats to make the President look bad and that it's no worse than a bad cold." And every single one of them is at high risk of serious complications should they catch it, and they're poo-pooing every factual report as false. The naivete of so many is astounding. Yes, this can happen here. It's happened before, and it's happening again, and sticking your head in the sand won't fix it. 



"Mild" cases don't just mean you have a cough and sit on the couch and watch Netflix. "Mild" in medical terms is pretty much anything that doesn't land you in intensive care. 


The virus lives days on surfaces, and droplets can float in the air for 3 hours... that's why it's so contagious. Someone sneezes in a building. You enter the building a few minutes later and breathe in those droplets, and now you're exposed. This is how one person can infect dozens at a sporting event or concert or convention or school. Close contact is not required. Even a tiny exposure is probably enough. Unlike the more common cold and flu viruses, this one is new to our immune systems, thus there is no 'immune memory' and the virus gets a long time to replicate and spread before one's body recognizes the threat and starts working. If your immune system is weak or you have other issues, it's easy for the body to get overwhelmed, especially as the virus lasts for so long. You aren't better in a few days. Most people have symptoms for 2 weeks or more, with most critical cases worsening in the second week.


----------



## ACinATX

SilverMaple said:


> Yes, this. Exactly. I just listened to a group of senior citizens loudly proclaiming that the "whole thing is a hoax started by the Democrats to make the President look bad and that it's no worse than a bad cold." And every single one of them is at high risk of serious complications should they catch it, and they're poo-pooing every factual report as false.


Well, maybe it could eventually have a bright side. Maybe this eventually will make us realize, as a society, that facts, knowledge, and expertise actually are important. Who knows...


----------



## kewpalace

As of this morning, CA has suggested the following for gatherings ... 



> The state’s public health experts have determined that gatherings should be postponed or canceled across the state until at least the end of March. Non-essential gatherings must be limited to no more than 250 people, while smaller events can proceed only if the organizers can implement social distancing of 6 feet per person. Gatherings of individuals who are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19 should be limited to no more than 10 people, while also following social distancing guidelines.


Lots of public events here have been cancelled. Disneyland will close on Saturday (why not today?) until the end of March. Local Schools have cancelled events. Will be interesting to see how this all will play out ...


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## tinyliny

I'm getting more imput from friends, spreading stuff that is too panic-laden for my tolerance. 



The only thing that is certainly true is that the economic impact of this is going to be huge. It will make my retirement funds dwindle. It will make small businesses fail all over the place. It will have an impact that will take several years to rebound from.
I really feel for small businesses and restaurants that cannot weather this kind of desert.


be kind to your neighbors businesses. go out, eat out, just be wise. WASH your hands, ten times a day at least. But, don't let everything go under out of fear alone.


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## tinyliny

Let me add that the typical face mask that you see out there is more for YOU to not infect others, rather than for you to be protected from others. Because the seal is not so tight, and the material not really adequate to keep out tiny virus, it is only really helpful to keep your waterdroplets , like from a sneeze or small cough, from going out from you. As far as protecting you from inhaling airborn droplets, the protection is partial.


They also help to keep people from accidentally touching their own nose or mouth, with dirty hands.


Again, wash your hands every 30 minutes. this is the best thing you can do. 



If you must sneeze or cough, sneeze or cough down into your shirt. really. pull out the top of your shirt or sweater and sneeze down in there. Your elbow is better than your hand, but is still poor.


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## AnitaAnne

tinyliny said:


> I'm getting more imput from friends, spreading stuff that is too panic-laden for my tolerance.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing that is certainly true is that the economic impact of this is going to be huge. It will make my retirement funds dwindle. It will make small businesses fail all over the place. It will have an impact that will take several years to rebound from.
> I really feel for small businesses and restaurants that cannot weather this kind of desert.
> 
> 
> be kind to your neighbors businesses. go out, eat out, just be wise. WASH your hands, ten times a day at least. But, don't let everything go under out of fear alone.


I am sorry to say, eating out has been off my list since this began. As a healthcare worker, it is vital that I protect myself so I can help others. 

Mild cases mean a two week quarantine as one suffers through fevers, shortness of breath, and diarrhea just to name a few. I have animals dependent on me, and patients. No way am I will to take unnecessary risks just to support a business. 

The quicker everyone avoids social contact, the quicker we will get through this with minimal loss of life. If business fail, that is a sad consequence, but more I have concern for the people left without jobs. 

I am stocking up enough to get thru 2-3 weeks, no eating out, and after a lifetime of using cash, converting to card only. We must limit the spread of this.


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## SilverMaple

We've stopped eating out, too. Everyone will be affected by this, but the sooner we stop socializing of any type the sooner we can get back to normal. Businesses will fail and stocks will plummet and people will suffer and it's inconvenient, but those are all temporary situations. Death is permanent. 

Then we need to figure out how to stop this sooner next time, and make sure our county has the safety nets in place to prevent a lot of this suffering... like paid medical leave, actually using tests already available rather than trying to invent our own, closing borders immediately when a new epidemic starts, and actually supporting science.


----------



## loosie

SilverMaple said:


> Read this. ...
> 
> https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca


Thank you SM. Shows that with good management, this can indeed be controlled & minimised. Trouble is, as everyone's saying, the 'good management' is not coming from our governments & the 'powers that be'. They're (understandably) concerned more with the economic ramifications. Which are going to be huge, regardless whether it's gotten quickly under control. So best to 'bite bullets' before it gets worse.


----------



## Spanish Rider

This is not a rumor, but there is not enough medical testing to back the current theory here in Europe:

This virus is being easily spread by children. Not ONLY children, of course, but children have been seen to have the mildest forms of presentation (no fever or very low fever, mild cough or none at all). Therefore, there may be hundreds of children who are shedding the virus, yet these cases go undetected and can easily effect the adults, and especially seniors, around them.

This is the supposed thought behind closing schools here: not to keep our children from becoming infected, but to keep them from being unknowing carriers, infecting older populations. 

For those of you in areas where numbers of infected persons are growing, make sure your children completely understand what is happening and stress the importance of washing hands, etc.


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## loosie

RegalCharm said:


> It was on the news that the virus can live 3 days on surfaces.


Pft! 2 hours or 3 days... same same isn't it?? (Sarcasm)


----------



## Spanish Rider

@SueC, your article reminds me of the 'dumbing-down' theory, which I do not believe we have ever discussed. Can't find the paper now, but IQ scores had been growing 3 points per generation since the beginning of the 20th century, then stopped in the 1970s to start dropping 7 points per generation since 1975. Lots of theories there...


Have you read this paper in _The Lancet_, written by doctors in Wuhan (so certain data may have been reported with bias)?: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30566-3/fulltext The most interesting point contributed by this article is that the viral shedding of Covid19 lasts a mean of 20 days in survivors, yet continues until death in non-survivors (up to 37 days). That is a whopping increase over regular influenza (5-10 days), and should be considered in quarantine protocols, yet I hear no discussion about this finding.


----------



## SilverMaple

The 'dumbing down' is certainly a thing.... good grief, it makes you wonder how some people can find their feet to put on their socks in the morning. Extrapolating data and reasoning are also seemingly skills that are being lost.


----------



## Caledonian

We've had a steep rise in cases from 24 yesterday to 60 today, including our first in-country transmission. 

It was announced that we're banning all gatherings of more than 500 people to free up our emergency services, to keep them healthy, as well as to prevent the possibility of further spread in the population. 

Schools will remain open for now but i know that they're preparing for when they're told to close, as it may be until our summer holidays in June. It's thought that there's a higher risk of passing it on to relatives if children visit friends and their homes than if they're in school.

People with very mild symptoms are to assume that it could be the virus and self-isolate for 7 days. Sick Leave pay is to be given from the first day off. If their symptoms deteriorate, they've to phone our NHS phoneline or information helpline; and their details may be passed to local protection teams who test on a secure hospital site, a drive-through site or at home.

Other than washing my hands more often it hadn't affected my routine, now I've changed plans to meet-up with friends at local restaurants and events, I'm shopping for my elderly mum and I'm planning in case we have to self-isolate. 

It's been affecting my job for a few weeks as i often work with people from abroad and school children. However, after having to deal with a sneezing french school boy and snotty, snuffling gentleman with a cough from Washington, I'm more than happy to say enough and take a step back. I can't afford to be ill or to transfer it to my mum and other sick and/or elderly people in my life.


----------



## SueC

Spanish Rider said:


> @SueC, your article reminds me of the 'dumbing-down' theory, which I do not believe we have ever discussed. Can't find the paper now, but IQ scores had been growing 3 points per generation since the beginning of the 20th century, then stopped in the 1970s to start dropping 7 points per generation since 1975. Lots of theories there...
> 
> Have you read this paper in _The Lancet_, written by doctors in Wuhan (so certain data may have been reported with bias)?: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30566-3/fulltext The most interesting point contributed by this article is that the viral shedding of Covid19 lasts a mean of 20 days in survivors, yet continues until death in non-survivors (up to 37 days). That is a whopping increase over regular influenza (5-10 days), and should be considered in quarantine protocols, yet I hear no discussion about this finding.


That's interesting, @Spanish Rider - I guess the people who don't survive it are shedding longer because their immune systems haven't managed to contain the virus and remove it from the bloodstream etc. I expect that similar things happen with people dying of flu - that the concentration of virus stays skyhigh and therefore they shed till they die.

A guest we had last week is an ED nurse who had a long rotation through a closed, full biosecurity infectious diseases unit at a specialist hospital in Singapore which handles all the really virulent stuff from all over SE Asia - things like suspected Ebola, SARS etc. She is working in the Australian health system now and was telling us the hospitals she's seen here are fairly clueless how to contain stuff like this, and that the lack of policy around serious new viruses was a joke. COVID-19 is one thing, but it's playschool compared to something like Ebola, and one of these days we're going to get something really nasty, which will wipe a lot of people out - orders of magnitude more than COVID-19. 

Having said that, I do agree with @gottatrot that if humans won't limit their own populations to a sustainable and reasonable level, nature will do it for us - as it has done across the board for millions of years - we've just been getting away with it lately, but I don't expect us to get away with it for much longer (ecosystem collapse will certainly do it if infectious diseases and wars don't - because sadly, humans, while they do have brains and could theoretically live harmoniously and avoid a lot of these problems, don't use their brains consistently and are generally too self-interested, too tunnel-visioned and too short-term in their thinking).

That's interesting about the IQ trends. Of course, IQ tests are largely a cultural construct of the white middle class, and scores depend on education and training, not just innate ability across certain types of maths and logic valued by this section of culture, so I'd say part of the reason for the initial growth in IQ points was that (Western) education through those years was reaching more people, and more effectively. The dumbing down part I would expect to partially correlate with the dumbing down of education in the past few decades (chicken or egg or something else?) - it's become less challenging - in the past 20 years here in Western Australia, students are arriving in university with less and less advanced knowledge in mathematics, language, logic etc, and university courses have been watered down in turn because of it. Other factors behind the IQ drop may well include genetics (with less responsible people tending to have a large accidental brood etc - and the documented drop in fertility amongst the most highly educated), and environmental factors like too much screen time and not enough imagination, outdoors and hands-on in childhood anymore, and the continued decline in decent nutrition and physical fitness in the West in recent decades...


----------



## SilverMaple

First case one county over. Yet another person who came back from a cruise.


----------



## loosie

SueC said:


> if humans won't limit their own populations to a sustainable and reasonable level, nature will do it for us - as it has done across the board for millions of years - we've just been getting away with it lately, but I don't expect us to get away with it for much longer (ecosystem collapse will certainly do it if infectious diseases and wars don't


Unfortunately we are destroying the whole planet in the process, of which there could be no 'coming back' from...



> dumbing down of education in the past few decades (chicken or egg or something else?) - it's become less challenging - in the past 20 years here in Western Australia, students are arriving in university with less and less advanced knowledge in mathematics, language, logic etc,


My kids used to be great at maths & loved it in primary school. Then in high school they both told me they were surprised that they were doing grade 4 type stuff, because that's all the other kids were up to. First year at this school, my eldest would ask the teacher to explain something only to be told 'just use a calculator, you don't need to understand it'(!!!) Then last year, Darcy said class played up for the teacher so badly that they couldn't concentrate, and she was too busy coping(& crying or walking out) to actually give any instruction/help. But I had many communications & meetings with the teacher to try to overcome & combat that, I thought all good - she told me Darcy was top in the class, no issues... until end of year report said they were UP TO Yr 9 level... at the END of Yr 9(!!)... turns out, what she meant was, Darcy was doing well *in comparison to the rest of the class*. As they wanted to do Maths Methods(what used to be Maths A, highest option) this year and Jess in Yr 9 this year, hating maths & telling me she was stupid at it... I have been paying a tutor(a pretty penny) for private maths lessons for both of them, because the school is failing so dismally. 

And in other classes, I hear assignments & tests get constantly reviewed & maybe dropped completely, to bring it down to a level that the majority of kids will manage/bother with. Many kids do extremely little of anything(if they're at school at all) and there is no discipline, they don't even seem to keep kids down these days if they don't/can't do the work. So there are kids in Yr 10 that can't even do their times tables...

And as you mention language & logic... My kids learned Japanese at primary school & were excited that this school offered Japanese, they were both really keen. But it's an elective subject that the kids(if chosen at all when they select their electives), get to do for only one term per year! They both started it & Darcy requested to be able to do it for 2 elective subjects the following year, so they'd have half the year of it at least. The teacher was really happy for this to happen, but the school wouldn't allow it. So, seeing as they'd pretty much forgotten what they learned 3 terms ago by then, Darcy decided it was basically a waste of time to do it at all :-(

When we started at the school, I was stoked to see that one of the electives offered was Philosophy. I was thinking lots of critical thinking, logic.... Apparently they've done a lot on religions & how illogical they are... which was upsetting to Darcy's best mate & another Christian student, who were laughed at & picked on, made to feel stupid(I reported this to both the teacher & the principal but got no reply). They've also discussed euthanasia, gay marriage & some other interesting topics, but sadly, there seems to be little if any 'critical thinking' & 'logic' taught. Let alone respect for different people's beliefs...

They don't teach anything to do with the environment "Because kids aren't interested in that" and while I loaned the doco film '2040' to the English teacher, who was excited to show it to her class, they apparently watched a quarter of it & turned it off, because the kids said it was boring...

Pardon the rant!


----------



## SueC

That sounds dreadful, @loosie, and very much like the country middle school I attended in the 1980s, where I spent most of my time twiddling my thumbs, and eventually bringing my own books to read when I'd finished classwork in 10 minutes. The senior school I moved to up in Perth for Year 11/12 was really super, and finally I was learning things and being stretched, with all tertiary entrance subjects and a comparatively high level of expectation for academic students back then.

As a teacher I saw both types of schools, and avoided working at the no-learn schools, because it's pointless having a specialist education teaching at schools like this, you just need bouncers and fulltime psychologists if the school culture is that bad. And it is usually the school culture, and that usually is created by the support or lack thereof of teachers by the middle and upper management, in things like being allowed to have high learning and behaviour standards - although academically selective schools, of course, have the pro-learning culture there already courtesy of their students (I spent a while teaching at Sydney Girls, and most of those kids were Asian-Australians, completely different work ethic and like teaching at university back in the pre-dilution days, which I did before teaching high school).

When you had a good management team, you could be at a low socioeconomic school and yet have a wonderful learning culture. It's good to see that this is still happening today:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...as-dying-until-students-and-teachers/12041718

I've had the pleasure of working in a couple of schools like this, both in the state and Catholic systems. It's just such a shame that the Sodom-and-Gomorrah schools tend to stay like that for decades, because managements usually have permanent positions, unlike classroom teachers who are these days mostly on year contracts. And the worst thing is when a previously great school is turned into a horrible school by people like that, as happened to one of my favourite schools to teach at as a young teacher - it went from an excellent school with a great atmosphere and top achievement to one where there was rampant violence and really no curriculum learning going on at all... and it's still like that... and unfortunately, it was tipping more and more like that with many of the state schools in particular, so it was getting harder over the years to find the good schools to teach at!

I'm sorry your school sucks. If you can't find one that doesn't, teach your kids to self-educate, and if they're in rough classrooms, perhaps negotiate with the teacher that they are allowed to do an independent study programme in the school library, where it's quiet and no shenanigans are going on - it would be a better use of their time...

Re the state of the planet, I hear you - it's a crying shame that humans are taking so much else out with them. And while what we're doing will potentially set the planet back to primordial slime stage, something new would eventually evolve - the sun is only halfway through its life span yet. It wouldn't be the same, of course, and it's a crying shame, but it would be something...


----------



## ApuetsoT

Well, my province has banned large gatherings of people and word around the office is tommorow they are going to be sending us home for a couple weeks. My job can be done 100% remote, so no worries there.


----------



## RegalCharm

loosie said:


> Pft! 2 hours or 3 days... same same isn't it?? (Sarcasm)


so after 2hours and 10 minutes you can go into the same room where a person who tested positive was coughing and handling stuff and breath without a mask. So go into that same room after 2 1/2 days and handle stuff in that room. Then touch your mouth or nose.

Is it still the same same ?


----------



## SueC

I think that's exactly the point @loosie was making, @RegalCharm. We often do that backwards and sarcastically in Australia! ;-)

Sort of like, "Nice haircut!" :rofl:


----------



## horselovinguy

Just heard headline for news at 10 PM...

_*Theme parks are closing...*_
*Just saw Disney Florida, California and Paris are temporarily closing..
Universal has also just joined in and closing till at least end of the month starting this Sunday.*
We have Disney World, Universal, Busch Gardens, Seaworld, Legoland and a few other smaller parks besides zoos and aquariums.
Will see who else closes for safety reasons of park guests, employees and just everyone and everything...

Suddenly my "rural" area is stepping up quickly in protecting us...
The threat is now real enough to affect even rural areas like us..
School has been closed this week for spring break, wonder if schools will reopen next week or follow suit of all the college/universities in the area who are shuttering campuses and other K-12 public schools are in session via computer teaching from home...
School here ends in May...guess that is going to be interesting the kids finishing the school year as required..
:runninghorse2:...


----------



## loosie

SueC said:


> When you had a good management team, you could be at a low socioeconomic school and yet have a wonderful learning culture.


Yeah I agree - there are some GREAT teachers there, but they have no support & have told me the policy is don't separate kids into classes of different levels & just teach to the standard of the lowest :-( Dunno about the 'squeaky wheel' theory, but while some of the teachers are great & do their best to address concerns, at best, when I've tried to address this with management, I've got meaningless platitudes that don't amount to anything, or been told politely that 'that just can't/isn't happening'. If I phone or email, I very rarely even get a reply.

As for discipline, the principal has deemed that detention & other punishments aren't allowed & so at best, the teachers are only allowed to 'relocate' really naughty kids - that means sending them out of class for the period(theoretically into a different year's classroom, if they go there, or don't just refuse to leave the class at all) to just sit on their ipads for the rest of the class, or disrupt other students...



> I'm sorry your school sucks. If you can't find one that doesn't, teach your kids to self-educate, and if they're in rough classrooms, perhaps negotiate with the teacher that they are allowed to do an independent study programme in the school library, where it's quiet and no shenanigans are going on - it would be a better use of their time...


Yeah, we have had some serious thought/talks about changing schools, but there are precious few(& I don't think any better) options around here, apart from the private school which we can't afford. They'd have to travel many miles for a good school - one of the setbacks of rural living. And I do think the social aspect & having local friends is also important, so we have chosen to stay put.

As for 'self educating' and working out of class, I'm so proud (& amazed, as it's a far cry from how I was at school) that my kids have indeed taken that initiative themselves at times. Darcy is amazingly conscientious about school work & has, when they asked for more challenging work & none forthcoming, borrowed the next class up's maths textbook and just worked by themselves from that(& actually got in trouble for it... which sent me to the school in a righteous rage!). They also frequently go work alone in the library or outside the classroom if the teacher allows it, but only a couple of teachers will. And while homework isn't 'the done thing' these days apparently, they both do a fair bit, to keep up with what they were supposed to be doing in class. Jess sat up late last night finishing an essay, due in today, that they were told yesterday was no longer required just because most of the kids hadn't started it...


----------



## loosie

RegalCharm said:


> so after 2hours and 10 minutes you can go into the same room where a person who tested positive was coughing and handling stuff and breath without a mask. So go into that same room after 2 1/2 days and handle stuff in that room. Then touch your mouth or nose.
> 
> Is it still the same same ?


Yep, that's the idea our government seems to be promoting. And if you need 15 minutes of close face to face contact, that means you're all good if you've only been with a sickie for 10 minutes I suppose...


----------



## loosie

I just saw a vid someone took of a guy in a train... Guy had a mask on, he pulled it down, wiped his mouth with his hand, then wiped his hand, thoroughly, all over the pole in front of him. Looked like he was doing it purposefully to spread germs...


----------



## RegalCharm

SueC said:


> I think that's exactly the point @*loosie* was making, @*RegalCharm* . We often do that backwards and sarcastically in Australia! ;-)
> 
> Sort of like, "Nice haircut!" :rofl:


Oh you mean like we used to say in High School Nice Hat (or whatever) , Wish I had 2 of them. One to poop in and one to cover it up with.

maybe try using the American way and be forwards instead of backwards and not sarcastically . 

The End.


----------



## tinyliny

Does anyone know, yet, if after having contracted this, gone through the illness, and survived (as most persons will), if true immunity is how conferred upon that survivor?


If so, persons who become truly immune would then become extremely valuable in helping to care for those who are ill. We could start a 'brigade' of warriors to combat this.


----------



## loosie

^No mate, can't do that, we're not American! I do appreciate sarcasm doesn't come across well in written words, so indulge in it here very little - for clarity, not for wanting to 'use the American way' - and that's why I wrote '(sarcasm)' in that comment, so people would know not to take it seriously.


----------



## loosie

tinyliny said:


> Does anyone know, yet, if after having contracted this, gone through the illness, and survived (as most persons will), if true immunity is how conferred upon that survivor?
> 
> 
> If so, persons who become truly immune would then become extremely valuable in helping to care for those who are ill. We could start a 'brigade' of warriors to combat this.


I would assume so, but it seems there are some far more qualified people here to answer that properly. A question I had, along the same lines is, Once a person is over the disease(& supposedly immune), can they not still be a carrier & pass it on to others? In the same way 'the common cold' and measles & the likes wiped out many indigenous people when 'the civilised world' started expanding...?


----------



## RegalCharm

COLUMBUS, Ohio — Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine said schools across the state will have an extended spring breaks due to COVID-19 concerns.
Public, private and charter schools will be out for three weeks beginning at the close of school on Monday, March 16.
DeWine said for children, the risk of death from COVID-19 is low, but children are potential carriers of the virus.
DeWine said state leaders will continue to consult with educators.

"We have to everything we can to slow down the spread of this virus," he said.
"This action is not an action I took lightly but is an action that we are confident is the right thing to do," DeWine said.
DeWine said state leaders and schools have been working to ensure that school services that kids get, like food, will be able to continue. Those are things that are important.

“The Ohio Department of Education is in the process of requesting a USDA waiver to enable sponsors to serve meals in a non-congregate setting and at school sites during school closures related to the coronavirus. Meals served by sponsors during these school closures would be claimed either through the Summer Food Service Program or the Seamless Summer Option. Upon approval, the Department will update this notification with further instructions for schools," the department said on its website.

What does this mean locally? We asked a few districts.
At Indian Creek, the question was about testing.
“The testing schedule starts here in a week or two for us,” Indian Creek Superintendent T.C. Chappelear said. “We’ve got a lot of questions about what’s this going to look like? What’s the impact going to look like now? What’s the impact of this 3-week closure on the accountability system? What’s the impact on evaluations? Things like that.
“We’ve got a lot of questions. We know the information is going to come out. It’s just taking a breath and making decisions as we move forward.”

At Steubenville City Schools, the issue was feeding the students.

“The demographics of our kids, we know how important it is to eat every single day, and we provide that every single day. Through these next 3 weeks – and it actually turns into a month because of our spring break -- we want to provide that service, we don’t want them to go without food,” Steubenville High School Principal Ted Gorman said.


----------



## AnitaAnne

tinyliny said:


> Does anyone know, yet, if after having contracted this, gone through the illness, and survived (as most persons will), if true immunity is how conferred upon that survivor?
> 
> 
> If so, persons who become truly immune would then become extremely valuable in helping to care for those who are ill. We could start a 'brigade' of warriors to combat this.





loosie said:


> I would assume so, but it seems there are some far more qualified people here to answer that properly. A question I had, along the same lines is, Once a person is over the disease(& supposedly immune), can they not still be a carrier & pass it on to others? In the same way 'the common cold' and measles & the likes wiped out many indigenous people when 'the civilised world' started expanding...?


No to the immunity question. Just like people can get pneumonia more than once, or colds more than once, or the flu more than once...not immune once recovered, but should build up some immunity to lessen the effects of future outbreaks


----------



## SueC

AnitaAnne said:


> No to the immunity question. Just like people can get pneumonia more than once, or colds more than once, or the flu more than once...not immune once recovered, but should build up some immunity to lessen the effects of future outbreaks


To which I have to add, the reason for that is because there's more than one type of pathogen that can cause pneumonia or the cold or associated secondary infections, and influenza is caused by a whole group of viruses that mutate all the time.

COVID-19 is one specific strain of virus, at this point, although of course, like other cold and flu viruses, it's probably going to mutate, and indeed has come into existence by mutation / recombination etc. So if you get COVID-19, you would normally be immune to that particular strain for a while afterwards, but you'll be susceptible to other forms it may mutate into in the future, just as with flu viruses.

Whether some people can continue to carry it and spread it after recovery is a good question, which I've not read up on at this point. I think generally, respiratory viruses get eliminated below infectious level when you've recovered, but of course, some other viruses, like herpes simplex (coldsores etc), lurk around for years in little hiding spots and can get to infectious levels again that way. Infamously, there's the story of Typhoid Mary, but of course, typhoid is a bacterial infection, not a viral one. Nevertheless, if you don't know the story, it makes interesting reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoid_Mary


----------



## AnitaAnne

Can someone get the coronavirus more than once?

A protective antibody is generated in those who are infected. "However, in certain individuals, the antibody cannot last that long. For many patients who have been cured, there is a likelihood of relapse," said Li QinGyuan, director of pneumonia prevention and treatment at China Japan Friendship Hospital in Beijing.
Poland agreed, saying the chance of reinfection is "very likely."
However, Eng Eong Ooi, a professor of emerging infectious diseases at Singapore's Duke-NUS Medical School, said the data is too new to determine definitively whether the immunity will last for a very short period of time, for years or for life


----------



## aubie

Wife of Canadian Prime Minister tests postive.


----------



## aubie

Speaking of creeping in, a possible case being tested on a worker in a restaurant not far from me. I don't go there but still.


----------



## loosie

Sposing U mericans heard already but Tom Hanks & his wife are over here in Queensland & they're sick with it.


----------



## SueC

Some un-confuselling: ;-)



> Remember, coronaviruses are nothing new
> 
> Coronaviruses are a big group of viruses that cause illnesses such as the common cold or more recent diseases including SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) and MERS.
> 
> Simply, COVID-19 is a new strain that has not been previously identified in humans.
> 
> The viruses are named for the corona, or crown, of surface proteins that the virus uses to penetrate the cells of its host.
> 
> So, it's only fitting that this particular strain has its own name.


From the full article linked below, explaining the naming of this particular new strain of coronavirus as COVID-19:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-14/why-whos-official-name-for-the-coronavirus-matters/11964176


----------



## BzooZu

Most of our schools have been closed since last week ( we had about 6 cases then). 
This week (21 cases) all places for shopping except for pharmacies and groceries is going to be closed on the weekends. Shopping centers, supermarkets and other big closed spaces where people like to spend a lot of time with their kids are told to monitor the amount of people and keep them low or they will be closed during the workdays too. 
Restaurants closed for the weekend, after that maybe during the week too (situation unclear)
All public gatherings over 10 people were banned.
No flying out or in for the next two weeks, only if really necessary.
Check ins on our borders to quarantine people who are sick. We are supposed to report anyone who got home from out of state and looks/feels sick (family members, neighbours, colleagues,...). There are supposed to be set up quarantine centers so you dont get your whole family sicks when you get home from abroad, but I am not sure how that is going yet.

So, I think here we are doing what we can to slow it down as much as possible. There is lots of information available, telephone numbers were sent to everyone so they can call and ask what to do if they are unsure.


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## ACinATX

@BzooZu where are you located?


----------



## Acadianartist

Confirmed positive case in my province, but lots of suspected cases including students from the university where I teach. We're being told to get ready for the possibility that classes will go online as many universities in Quebec have already done that. It's hard to keep track at this point because we're getting new notices every hour almost. 

Our provincial government has declared that gatherings of more than 150 people should be cancelled. But schools are still open. Which makes no sense of course, since there are a lot more than 150 people in a school. I sent my kids in, but told them to bring anything they might need home at the end of the day because we don't know if there will be school on Monday. Four of my university students (out of about 50) are showing symptoms and staying home. They have just returned from spring break. 

Grocery stores were very busy yesterday afternoon, which is a bit eerie. I live in a small town, and people never panic. Our idea of a holiday rush is three people in line. There are still lots of supplies, but I have never seen so many people in a grocery store on a Thursday afternoon. Not even sure I've seen this at Christmas. 

I have a friend who is a nurse and for the last couple of days has said we need to close everything now. Our hospitals have been overrun for a while, well before this happened. Our government is broke, and has been talking about cutting ER services in rural hospitals. Luckily, the population was in an uproar and it didn't happen, but the numbers are stark. If 20% of Canadians get it, and a small percentage of those require hospitalization, we'll run out of room and supplies very quickly. My friend the nurse has also told me that some of her colleagues will refuse to come in because they don't want to infect their families. We have had a nurse shortage for some time. 

This is how my colleague put it: "

“I was talking with a smart, thoughtful student today who did not comprehend the importance of slowing down the Covid-19 contagion. So I am offering a simple example as an explanation because I don't think he is unusual.
Imagine a city of 100,000 people, such as ours.
Imagine that 20%, or 20,000 people get infected, which is not inconceivable without quarantines.
Imagine that of those 20,000, 10% need hospitalization with a ventilator. That's 2000 people.
I can assure you, the hospital in our small city cannot handle a flood of 2000 people needing a ventilator. It could not handle 200 in 72-96 hours.
Imagine that only 10% of those people die. That's 200 people, a mere .02%. Not 2%, .02%. It's still too many.
We can't even handle a 10% contagion rate. So self quarantine if there is any chance one is contagious is critical. We are risking a total system crash. That means if you are in a car accident and need medical care, you can't get it. Or if you slip on the ice and break your leg, you can't get care. It threatens delivery of food. It threatens sewage systems.
Quarantines are not overreaction. A system crash would be far worse.”


And yes, our prime minister Justin Trudeau and his wife Sophie Grégoire are in isolation. She has tested positive, and he is in isolation because he has been in contact with her, obviously. So he will be leading the country virtually. 

I think I have convinced my parents to cancel their trip to Florida (they were going to leave Monday). Best to stay put for a while, until this all blows over.


----------



## BzooZu

@ACinATX Slovakia - middle Europe


----------



## Thundering Hooves

Our whole state just closed...... whoops no school for 4 weeks!


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## NavigatorsMom

The whole thing is really causing me a lot of anxiety, just because I worry so easily to begin with! I was trying to figure out if we've ever closed down so much in the past for a virus and I'm thinking not? I think part of the reason everyone is encouraging that now is because jobs and school can still be done via internet, which may not have been available in the past? As a former band student I really feel for all of the musicians, actors, student athletes, etc, who will miss out on concerts, plays, playoff games, spring trips...particularly seniors who may not get those opportunities again.  

I work in a library and this past week has been spring break for the schools around here, and we have been down nearly 40% in guests visiting compared to last year's spring break. We are still open for the time being but programs are being canceled, we're looking at livestreaming story time classes so guests can have that from home. I can easily see us closing down for a period. Luckily my husband can work from home so he does not have to worry about going in. 

My husband and I also have a Disneyworld trip planned for late April. We will not cancel yet, but it is disappointing that we may have to as this is something we had to prep for pretty far in advance and were really looking forward to (and yes I also recognize that that is extremely "first world problem-y").


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## AnitaAnne

IMO it is a good sign that so many places are taking immediate action. The increased use of the internet is beneficial in this case to get information out there quickly. Daily, even hourly statistics are changing, providing everyone with more information. 


Limiting in person social events is the easiest and least expensive way to limit the spread and thus limit the fatalities. 


If people do not stay home and limit social interaction, the medical system everywhere will be over run. We already have a stressed system; every day we have to turn patients away for lack of beds and staff. When other hospitals are called, they are found to also be on diversion. 


IMO all elective surgeries should be postponed also. 


A little inconvenience now, can save many. This won't be forever...


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## Ridingthatgrey

@AntiaAnne I agree 100% with you. Its good that people are taking action now not later


----------



## Spanish Rider

This post is not meant to cause alarm. It is meant to prepare you for what may be happening in many areas in the next 1-2 weeks:


The president of Spain has declared a State of Alarm. This means that the central government will be in charge, controlling resources and their distribution in order to make their use more efficient. Borders have also been closed: no one in, no one out.

To put this into a time context, last weekend we only had 2 cases in our province; we now have 197. As a country of 48 million (size of Texas), we had 100-ish cases 5 days ago; there are now more than 6,000, and more than 4,000 in Madrid.

With 6.5 million people, Madrid has been the hardest hit. Schools have been closed all week, and now all restaurants and non-essential stores have been closed. Only pharmacies, supermarkets and gas stations will remain open. Citizens are being told to remain at home.

Schools were closed today in our province. There is still freedom of movement, but supplies are lacking. As I had my eye on Italy, I had already stocked up on staples, water, and had ordered pet food. That shipment has not arrived as supply chains are being affected, so I went out this morning for my last shopping trip to top us off with fresh foods and pet food. The supermarkets were empty of fresh meats, although frozen was still available. I was only able to buy pre-packaged, frozen and canned foods, although one supermarket did have fruits & veggies. I was able to buy pet food, although not the usual brand. My last stop was the pharmacy to pick up our prescriptions for a one-month supply (not authorized for more).

My house and family are now on lock-down: no one in, no one out.


If anyone would like home preparedness advice, here goes:

1) My husband and I have been sleeping in separate rooms since last week. We have a history of bouncing diseases, especially pneumonia, off each other and we are in our fifties. We are implementing a no-touching policy. A slap on the butt is all he gets!

2) Today, we have also decided to use separate bathrooms, so I will be moving upstairs.

3) This evening, we will each start using different plates & utensils: one set for each family member. We are also using the 1.5 - hour sanitizing program on the dishwasher (sorry, Mother Nature).

4) For the past few days, when we have been in contact with the 'outside world', as we walk in the door we strip in the mudroom/laundry room. Things go straight into the machine, washed with laundry sanitizer in the rinse cycle (a Lysol-type product). The laundry is hung outside in the sun. Shoes that have been worn in public areas are not worn in the house.

5) Bedrooms are aired out every day for several hours. Windows open, doors closed.

6) Incessant washing of hands.

7) Personal distance. We continue to eat together at the kitchen table, maintaining a 3-ft distance. Otherwise, we are usually in separate rooms.


Today at lunch, my 16-year-old asked, "So, what is our worst-case scenario?" I said, "I guess it is if your father and I both get sick at the same time." Afterwards, we had a jovial conversation about him making us soup and leaving it on trays outside of our bedroom doors. We laughed about it, but I know he is getting mentally prepared. There is no way to know whether we have been exposed to the virus, but we have to assume that we have. And he'll be the Captain if this ship starts to sink.


----------



## ACinATX

I've decided to go to the feed store today and buy as much hay as I can stuff into my civic (only four bales, which would be a one-week supply for my three guys if they had nothing else). My horses are on pasture, but their pasture is very poor and they need supplemental hay. I ordered a couple bags of alfalfa pellets yesterday. Hopefully they will come.

Barn owner has two round bales on hand, and nothing else (for approx 30 horses). If stores have to close, she will have nothing to feed the horses.


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## cbar

Things over here are getting a bit more hectic. Events have been cancelled b/c of the virus. Many people are told to work from home if they can. The grocery stores are almost dangerous to go to b/c of all the people stocking up on stuff. 

I am trying not to over-react, but it is hard not to notice all these things going on; and it does cause a bit of anxiety. 

We have a conference call in a little bit to discuss how our work will be affected. I already work from home full time, but i"m sure they will ask those who can work from home to stay away from the office. And I'm sure all broker visits will be cancelled as well. 

It also doesn't help that we are in the midst of a winter storm. South of us has it worse, but our weather sucks and it is just an additional downer on top of everything else that is going on. 

I try to be optimistic, but so far 2020 has not been a great year. I really hope this thing either gets under control or runs its course; unsure how this will play out though?? 

I saw a post somewhere that in one of Sylvia Browne's books she predicted this happening. Not sure if anyone believes in that stuff, but it did make me wonder. Although she mentioned that it would just disappear....fingers crossed she was right about that as well.


----------



## rambo99

Things here are starting to close down our church has closed till further notice. Some schools are closed in southern MN. Schools here aren't they are trying to keep them opened, till absolutely necessary to close them down.

There are a lot of kids that depend on school lunches and breakfast. They otherwise go hungry when there's no school. There are some kids that have no heat in there homes also so school is a warm place to be for the day. Really sad to think there are kids in our district that go without.😞. 

We are prepared for having to stay home. Dog & horses have enough food for a month or better. Have plenty of hay in barn also. Have plenty of food for ourselves too. Have a good 3 months worth of supplement for ice. Just got another bucket of it yesterday, ups delivered it. 

I'm not worrying because really can't control whats happening. We are being careful keeping our distance from other washing hands using sanitizers. I disinfect all counter tops spray Lysol through entire house daily. Plus open windows to let in fresh are daily.

Have taught kids to wash hands a lot. All of them carry hand sanitizers with them. To use at school. 

We aren't going out to eat in any restaurants either.


----------



## ACinATX

Our school district will be making lunches for kids that need them, no questions asked. But as of now, the parents have to take the kids to the pick-up points (neighborhood schools), and they get one meal per kid. I wonder if some parents who have to work will just send the kids by themselves. At least the district is making the effort. I heard that in the area of NY where they called the national guard, those guys will be delivering the school meals to people. Seems like a good idea...


----------



## PoptartShop

I work in DE, but live in MD. In MD they closed all public schools (private ones are next). DE is closing some schools as well. Sporting events too. Some colleges/universities are also closing, and only doing online lectures. No events containing over 250 people, etc. Every day something new is shutting down.

Grocery stores are full of panic - crazy lines, & no toilet paper anywhere really. It's crazy. I have to grocery shop this weekend & I'm honestly dreading it. :icon_rolleyes: Luckily, I have plenty of toilet paper, but still - I just want to do my normal shopping! :lol:

A few law firms have already told people they need to work from home. It looks like we are next - today at 4pm we have a meeting & a demo to discuss software so we can remote in from home. We will be in Monday, but they are saying the rest of next week we may be working from home.

I work in a huge, 18 story office building, so lots of offices & people. There's only about 30 people in my office alone, but the concern is being that we are in the city, & there are a lot of people that come & go through the building, they are concerned. 

I'm OK with working from home - won't have to use any gas to commute to here (it's about a 40min drive) & I can stay in my pajamas. :lol: 

I personally am not panicking or really worried. Always wash my hands, sanitize, long before this. I am very careful. Trying not to read too deep into the media & let any of it control me. I'm just living my life. Whatever happens, happens.  I am prepared, but not living in fear.


----------



## aubie

two confirmed cases in my county. I am worried about me, but older relatives and loved ones.


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## aubie

That is not to say you aren't Poptart, I know you are to.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Latest news is that major Madrid hotel owners have offered their hotel rooms to the government to use as hospitals. I think this is an excellent option, as there are no tourists in Madrid and the hotels are empty.


----------



## aubie




----------



## AnitaAnne

I bought a 30 roll pack of Charmin yesterday, would have bought a smaller package, but they didn't exist. I only had two rolls left, so really was necessary! 


My adoptive DD was saying it didn't matter because only old people were getting it. Made me very angry :evil:


Told her if the hospitals get full of "old people" with the virus, what if her babies get sick and there is no room??


Also aren't "old people" important too? Jeez :evil:


----------



## aubie

I have been put off by the old people stuff. Everyone has older relatives and friends.


----------



## Acadianartist

My university is going to all online classes as of now. They will provide us with some training and tools so we can do this. Not a big deal for me - I already use a lot online resources for course delivery. 

My parents have cancelled their trip to Florida after our prime minister advised against international travel. 

Schools are still open, but probably not for long. Sports, and all other extra-curricular activities are cancelled. My daughter's long-awaited school-related trip to Ottawa, cancelled. My son's football practices for Football New Brunswick, cancelled until at least the end of March. 

This is starting to feel a bit surreal.


----------



## farmpony84

The kids are out of school until the 27th. Husband is on call at home. OH MY LIST OF CHORES!!!!! I'm coming home to dinner on the table and a clean house for the next 2 weeks!


----------



## AnitaAnne

Acadianartist said:


> My university is going to all online classes as of now. They will provide us with some training and tools so we can do this. Not a big deal for me - I already use a lot online resources for course delivery.
> 
> My parents have cancelled their trip to Florida after our prime minister advised against international travel.
> 
> Schools are still open, but probably not for long. Sports, and all other extra-curricular activities are cancelled. My daughter's long-awaited school-related trip to Ottawa, cancelled. My son's football practices for Football New Brunswick, cancelled until at least the end of March.
> 
> This is starting to feel a bit surreal.


I think cancelling the trip was a wise idea anyway...


With the prime minister's wife affected, would expect the government to really crack down to contain it.


----------



## Foxhunter

Probl m is that it cannot be contained. Spread by touch and many people being affected without any symptoms it is going to run rife for a long long time.


----------



## farmpony84

I think it will go up - up - up and then level and then go down. Cancelling all of these activities is definitely keeping the numbers down which is good since it has such a dangerous effect on the older and immune compromised but it is still going to have to run it's course...


----------



## Ridingthatgrey

Our state schools are being shut down in Florida they just informed us


----------



## pheobe111

All universities in my province are suspended except mine :rofl:


----------



## kewpalace

The NRCHA postponed its Stallion Stakes. A wise choice since it was in the germ hot bed of the world (Vegas). Don't know when they will find to hold, the show year is already so packed.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Progression of cases in recent days (the spike has occured in the past 5 days):


----------



## ACinATX

Wow.
:eek_color:


----------



## Acadianartist

And schools are now closed for two weeks.

Is anyone in here sick? Everyone doing ok?


----------



## cbar

I have a random cold, but I'm a little hesitant to go out just b/c of how on alert people are. There has been one presumptive case in Calgary. I hope everyone is feeling OK.


----------



## gunslinger

Can't buy a roll of toilet paper around here....nor dried beans, rice, or peanut butter.


----------



## RegalCharm

@AnitaAnne talking about hospital rooms. Here last fall 2 hospitals (Ohio Valley Medical Center. and East Ohio Regional Hosp) (actually one big business owned by someone in Ca. went belly up. As far as I know all the medical equipment is still in them as they were looking for someone to buy them.
Both are in really good shape as they have been remodeled numerous times.

They are just sitting there doing nothing.

Ohio Valley Medical Center (OVMC), founded in 1890 as City Hospital, was a 200-bed health care facility located in the heart of downtown Wheeling, West Virginia. While the building was remodeled and greatly expanded throughout the years, the architecture dates back to the Ohio Valley General Hospital School of Nursing that was established on the campus of OVGH in 1892 as the first school of nursing …

and

East Ohio Regional Hospital (EORH), founded in 1906 as Martins Ferry Hospital by local physician Dr. R.H. Wilson, EORH was a 140-bed health care facility located in downtown Martins Ferry, Ohio. Having begun its tradition of healing with only 30 beds and five physicians, EORH flourished with the expansion of services and the addition of new health care facilities and centers.


----------



## egrogan

Did our grocery shopping tonight instead of tomorrow and our food coop was out of TP, canned tomatoes, all types of bread...and bulk lentils :rofl: Shows you what a silly hippy dippy town we live in.

My passport is expiring so I went to a Walgreens pharmacy to get new photos taken to renew. While I was waiting for the pictures, a 50 something guy came in panicked, freaked out on the clerk for being out of rubbing alcohol, and then decided he’d buy vodka to make Gus hand sanitizer instead, even though the clerk calmly told him that’s not the same thing and wouldn’t work  Clerk and I had a good laugh about how irrational people are being. I don’t envy him his job over the next few weeks but appreciated that he seemed to be in good spirits.


----------



## Acadianartist

pheobe111 said:


> All universities in my province are suspended except mine :rofl:


They just haven't gotten around to it, but they will. There is no other choice now.


----------



## AnitaAnne

RegalCharm said:


> @AnitaAnne talking about hospital rooms. Here last fall 2 hospitals (Ohio Valley Medical Center. and East Ohio Regional Hosp) (actually one big business owned by someone in Ca. went belly up. As far as I know all the medical equipment is still in them as they were looking for someone to buy them.
> Both are in really good shape as they have been remodeled numerous times.
> 
> They are just sitting there doing nothing.
> 
> Ohio Valley Medical Center (OVMC), founded in 1890 as City Hospital, was a 200-bed health care facility located in the heart of downtown Wheeling, West Virginia. While the building was remodeled and greatly expanded throughout the years, the architecture dates back to the Ohio Valley General Hospital School of Nursing that was established on the campus of OVGH in 1892 as the first school of nursing …
> 
> and
> 
> East Ohio Regional Hospital (EORH), founded in 1906 as Martins Ferry Hospital by local physician Dr. R.H. Wilson, EORH was a 140-bed health care facility located in downtown Martins Ferry, Ohio. Having begun its tradition of healing with only 30 beds and five physicians, EORH flourished with the expansion of services and the addition of new health care facilities and centers.


They might be put back into service. Some places may use hotels, but providing staff will still be a big issue. Plus hotels do not have the supplemental oxygen that will be needed. 

What happens when the nurses and physicians get sick and need to quarantine?


----------



## pheobe111

Acadianartist said:


> They just haven't gotten around to it, but they will. There is no other choice now.



hoping you're right. really not feeling doing presentations for the next 2 weeks.


----------



## Acadianartist

cbar said:


> I have a random cold, but I'm a little hesitant to go out just b/c of how on alert people are. There has been one presumptive case in Calgary. I hope everyone is feeling OK.


It's a bit weird isn't it? I had a sore throat yesterday, and so did my son. I generally cough a little in the morning, as I loosen some phlegm, then I'm fine the rest of the day. But I've never been so conscious of it. My parents (both in the 70s) arrived Thursday to celebrate my son's 17th birthday, and the first thing I said to them, from about 30 feet away, is "I have a sore throat! No hugs!". I feel fine today, but I've been drinking a ton of pine needle tea, and that has often been a life-saver for me in the past. 

@*SueC* suggested a while ago we share our immune-boosting tips. Here's mine!

Pine needle tea was an Indigenous drink shared with some of the French who came to the new world. It's best made from white pine needles (google it, but basically, long needles that are in bunches of five). Extremely high in vitamin C. It kept them from getting scurvy when they had no access to fruit and vegetables in Canadian winters. You boil the needles and let them sit, preferably overnight. Makes a lovely reddish-tinted tea that can be drank hot or cold. As soon as I feel the beginnings of a cold, I drink several cups a day, and it has often saved me from getting really sick. Symptoms disappear, and I recover. And if I do get sick, it does alleviate symptoms. Just in case anyone out there is looking for a natural immune boost and has access to white pine!


----------



## QtrBel

Well our schools will shut down at end of day Wednesday and be closed until mid April. Spent the day putting grades in around prepping for online class transition as an in the event and at 5pm we were told no school and since other districts in the state aren't ready for implementing online we are all just closing for essentially a month. Regular teachers paid as usual. Those that are paid by the day that had long terms - well I can't say. I'm losing pay the entire time. Fortunate that husband is still working but who knows. My check makes the ends meet and takes care of the extras. I have hay to get through April and into May, supplements as well. I'll get the dogs and cat enough, fill two cans for the chickens and as long as the chickens lay we will not starve. I'll also do my hurricane prep early. Maybe in the month off I can gentle one of the beef cows and convince her to let us have enough for coffee and the growing boy to drink. It will be interesting to see what develops with the schools, we had already started offering distance learning for those that preferred to stay home. It meant not so much increase in demand for classrooms as communities grow and schools can't keep up.


----------



## boots

Nursing homes are on lock down. Schools are still open. Colleges are taking an extra week for break.

Town was still busy. Restaurants full. Bands at the bars. 

The one case in the state reportedly has been able to recover at home. 

Hope it holds.


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## farmpony84

gunslinger said:


> Can't buy a roll of toilet paper around here....nor dried beans, rice, or peanut butter.


Wait - what?! NO PEANUT BUTTER?????!!!!!

Thems fighting' words. I'd riot over peanut butter.


----------



## boots

Oh. I almost forgot...

The town where I work only has two stores and about 3,000 people. 

Earlier this week, a couple cars came to town from the much larger town that is more than two hours away. They went to one of the stores and bought all their TP. When a clerk saw what was happening, he called the other store and warned them. Clerks at the second store rushed to pull most of the rolls off the shelves. When the hoarders got there they found only two packages and everybody played like they'd already been cleaned out. 

Best part: the second store sent some cases of tp to the store that got hit so they'd have some stock. We have elderly folks around for whom going to even one store can be tiring. The stores didn't want things to be hard on them.

That is small town Wyoming.


----------



## AnitaAnne

I always wondered about pine needle tea, how to make and what it tasted like. All we have are southern pine tree here, so not sure if they would do. 

Zinc fights off colds, so might work on this too.


----------



## RegalCharm

boots said:


> Oh. I almost forgot...
> 
> The town where I work only has two stores and about 3,000 people.
> 
> Earlier this week, a couple cars came to town from the much larger town that is more than two hours away. They went to one of the stores and bought all their TP. When a clerk saw what was happening, he called the other store and warned them. Clerks at the second store rushed to pull most of the rolls off the shelves. When the hoarders got there they found only two packages and everybody played like they'd already been cleaned out.
> 
> Best part: the second store sent some cases of tp to the store that got hit so they'd have some stock. We have elderly folks around for whom going to even one store can be tiring. The stores didn't want things to be hard on them.
> 
> That is small town Wyoming.


Have heard this is happening here also. Do not understand why a store can not post a sign saying 1 package per day per customer.


----------



## AnitaAnne

RegalCharm said:


> Have heard this is happening here also. Do not understand why a store can not post a sign saying 1 package per day per customer.


But that would be way too easy and logical...

All I want is one bottle of hand sanitizer or rubbing alcohol. Can I find any? Nope...but I do have a 30 pack of TP and I only needed a 4 pack but 30 was the only choice available. Made I should try trading some TP? :rofl: 


G'night all, past my bedtime and getting up early for the club tack sale.


----------



## ApuetsoT

Unfortunately my office has not sent us home, just said to bring our laptops home each night and to be prepared to wfh at some point.

Glad I went grocery shopping last weekend. From what I'm hearing, stores are crazy right now. 20 min check out lines, shelves empty. I'm good for several weeks as I usually only buy food once or twice a month anyway. Rice and beans is my normal. 

Cat has lots of food. Barn just got a new load of squares and stil have plenty of rounds. I do need to stop at the feed store and pickup more grain.


----------



## RegalCharm

AnitaAnne said:


> But that would be way too easy and logical...
> 
> All I want is one bottle of hand sanitizer or rubbing alcohol. Can I find any? Nope...but I do have a 30 pack of TP and I only needed a 4 pack but 30 was the only choice available.* Made I should try trading some TP? *:rofl:
> 
> 
> G'night all, past my bedtime and getting up early for the club tack sale.


I have something in my stash that is well above 60% alcohol. burns with an invisible flame and in an emergency can be used in the gas tank but has to be watered down with gasoline or it will burn a hole in the top of the pistons. Got it from a friend who knows this guy who is a friend who knows this guy and you leave a $20. in a spot and come back in an hour to pick up your mason jar. :rofl::rofl::rofl: J/K you don't have to leave any money and return later.


----------



## tinyliny

In my local store, some of the most sought after items are missing, and there's a sign there saying, "This item is available through a courtesy clerk" . So, you have to find a clerk and ask. I think that is their way of 'rationing'. It makes sense. 



I bake bread regularly. Usually, there is a ton of flour out there, I almost never see anyone buy flour, let along bread flour. yesterday, the only flour I could find, at all, was a torn bag of bread flour. Oh well, I planned to make bread anyway.


as for TP, do not forget that tissues sold in boxes work as well.


----------



## loosie

farmpony84 said:


> The kids are out of school until the 27th. Husband is on call at home. OH MY LIST OF CHORES!!!!! I'm coming home to dinner on the table and a clean house for the next 2 weeks!


There is a bright side!

And while over here 'Scotty from Marketing' has said that casual workers will not get any government assistance for sick pay as they get extra loading(little more & more often low paying jobs anyway), Coles, Woolworths and a number of other big chains have announced they will be paying sick pay to their casual staff for 2 weeks. 

My husband is an industrial plumber, on a job(city skyscraper) that currently has 800+ people, so they're splitting the job into 2 somehow, so they can conform to the 'no gatherings over 500' rule that's just been brought in... which prevented Scotty from making it to his footy match. Still seems all over the shop here, but people are finally starting to sit up & think about it... more than the toilet paper shemozzle.


----------



## Foxhunter

I do not know why there is a rush on TP ! Seems ridiculous as Covid doesn't give you the :runninghorse2: runs?

I think it started when a radio presenter said that if there was an epidemic it would hit industry and finished with " who knows, it might cause a TP shortage!"


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## loosie

Foxhunter said:


> Probl m is that it cannot be contained. Spread by touch and many people being affected without any symptoms it is going to run rife for a long long time.


Yes, I think it's a given that most of us will get it at some stage, but the figures about it's spread in different countries, considering different management tactics show it can be *minimised* - China has largely succeeded in stopping the spread. I think this is vital, to minimise economic and health care strain.


----------



## loosie

gunslinger said:


> Can't buy a roll of toilet paper around here....nor dried beans, rice, or peanut butter.


Peanut butter is a good staple! I'm just dreading going to the bottle shop & finding everyone's bought up all the stout!


----------



## loosie

tinyliny said:


> I bake bread regularly. Usually, there is a ton of flour out there, I almost never see anyone buy flour, let along bread flour. yesterday, the only flour I could find, at all, was a torn bag of bread flour. Oh well, I planned to make bread anyway.


You can use it for other stuff - just that bread flour is higher gluten than normal. Didn't think of looking for that, as all the shops are out of regular flour.


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## loosie

Foxhunter said:


> I do not know why there is a rush on TP ! Seems ridiculous as Covid doesn't give you the :runninghorse2: runs?
> 
> I think it started when a radio presenter said that if there was an epidemic it would hit industry and finished with " who knows, it might cause a TP shortage!"


Yes Fox, it apparently started with a joke from a DJ. Goes to show how many 'sheeple' there are... That people went ape on tp before anything else over here was so ridiculous. Now though, everything else is running out too. Still a number of things I find bizarre... Husband shopped this morn for us & among other items, couldn't buy cheese, razor blades, deodorant & cooking oil. There was processed white bread but no other good types of bread.


----------



## SueC

Acadianartist said:


> @*SueC* suggested a while ago we share our immune-boosting tips. Here's mine!
> 
> Pine needle tea was an Indigenous drink shared with some of the French who came to the new world. It's best made from white pine needles (google it, but basically, long needles that are in bunches of five). Extremely high in vitamin C. It kept them from getting scurvy when they had no access to fruit and vegetables in Canadian winters. You boil the needles and let them sit, preferably overnight. Makes a lovely reddish-tinted tea that can be drank hot or cold. As soon as I feel the beginnings of a cold, I drink several cups a day, and it has often saved me from getting really sick. Symptoms disappear, and I recover. And if I do get sick, it does alleviate symptoms. Just in case anyone out there is looking for a natural immune boost and has access to white pine!


This sounds very nice! 

OK, I better offer some tips too.

Fundamentally, good nutrition, regular exercise and enough sleep are completely essential. Nothing replaces this - other things are just the cream on top.

But I have an illustration on a related topic, of just how essential those are:

When I broke three bones in my foot 18 months ago, I was seriously worried. I'm in my late 40s, one of the fractures was displaced, bones in the hands and feet are notoriously hard to heal, and the average recovery time for this injury was posted at 12 - 16 weeks, if you're under 40 and in good health. I was in good health, but not under 40, and since serious walking and hiking is one of my major hobbies, the idea of ending up with any sorts of complications that would affect my walking was a real concern to me. So I read up on specialist nutrition for bone healing and found that the majority of Australians are now running borderline Vitamin D deficiencies because of slip/slop/slap (avoiding sun exposure) becoming widely adopted. This is an issue for immunity, and also for bone healing. Also, it's important if you're trying to mend bones quickly, that you have the necessary amino acids available in your bloodstream - miss one, and the whole process is interrupted until the missing link arrives. So I made sure I had small amounts of complete protein at every meal (eggs, dairy, meat, fish, the right combinations of plant proteins), and that my snacks included complete proteins as well; and I took Vitamin D supplements, as well as betacarotene, Vitamin C, and Vitamin E, on top of having a disgustingly healthy diet with lots of fresh fruit and vegetables, nuts and berries, and wholemeal everything, and avoiding excessive sugar / added sugar etc.

I stayed hydrated (lots of green tea) and got extra sleep and rest - and I worked very hard to maintain my fitness in my one-legged state. I bought an iWALK 2.0 (see https://iwalk-free.com/product-introduction/) on recommendation of an online friend so that I could walk around on that hands-free, so that I'd not have to rehabilitate my affected leg from the knee up, just from the knee down, once I was allowed to bear weight again. If you're on crutches, you're not using the major muscle groups in your body, so it's hard to stay fit, and you're making yourself susceptible to secondary injuries to your shoulders and hands.

Anyway, every time I went to the fracture clinic for another review (two-week intervals), my orthopaedic consultant was super happy with how I was healing up. At 5 weeks post-fracture I was starting partial weight-bearing indoors because my body felt ready, and at my 6-week appointment I was officially cleared for full weight-bearing and told I could wear hiking boots instead of that astronaut boot you're in for early recovery - and the specialist brought in some juniors and spoke glowingly of my recovery, which was way ahead of expectations - "She just does all the right things! I wish all patients were like this!" The consultant physiotherapist said, "Great! You won't need me - but here's some exercises you can do that you may not have thought of!"

That night I went home, and my husband and I did a 5km walk at rapid pace, in which I used my crutches in the manner of ski poles, like Nordic walking - so that I could support my injured foot in the breakover phase, and get properly out of breath at the same time. This became daily routine, and by 8 weeks breakover didn't hurt anymore and I no longer used the crutches (and I also got back on my horse that week). Then we started hill training, and by 10 weeks we were back in the mountains. Compare that to the 12-16 week projected recovery time...

I'm using that as an example to illustrate that there's a lot we can do to help our bodies cope with various challenges, and that this makes a real difference. I'm going to be adopting a similar nutrition protocol as for bone healing, for boosting my immunity and general health, during this virus season. Last year I didn't do that, because I got careless, and ended up with a bad flu, and then one thing after the other. That's not fun, and that's not how I'm going to do it this year.

So: Nothing replaces good nutrition, regular exercise and sufficient rest and sleep.

Other than that:

Because I worked in high schools for 15 years, and initially picked up lots of colds and flus (infectious disease central, plus 60-hour high-stress weeks), a doctor at the time gave me some advice that really worked for me. One, don't touch your face, don't scratch any itches, etc - and wash your hands a lot. Two, try using a cold-sore prevention formula because it has benefits for fighting a range of viruses other than the herpes simplex virus it officially addresses. It's Vitamin C, zinc and lysine. Blackmores do one called Lyp-Sine; chemists do generic copies. I was to take one a day; but go to full dose at the slightest niggle in my throat etc. This reduced the incidence of getting cold or flu to less than one a year for me, and nothing very severe. So, we've just bought a month's supply and started taking that again.

My favourite sore-throat lozenges are sugarfree herbal ones containing echinacea, nigella, eucalyptus oil, fennel, peppermint and thyme, plus Vitamin C and zinc - kept them in the glovebox of the car when teaching and if my throat felt rough at the end of the day, I just had one on the way home. I still keep them to use at the first sign of a sore throat. Bioglan makes them in Australia but I've seen a number of different manufacturers of the same formula.

And, if you're getting ill, go to bed with a cup of tea (or a toddy - want to post your favourite toddy recipes?) and a book - don't wait for it to get bad first. That way, you can fight it better and recover faster.

Chicken soup, when you're not feeling great. If you're not up to making a "proper" one with all the chicken and veg, here's a quick one we still find very helpful when ill: Boil half a cup to a cup of soup pasta (alphabets have a much better texture than risoni!) in a litre of chicken stock, and just before the pasta is al dente, add four to five slices of cheddar cheese (not plastic-wrapped cheese slices - real cheddar cheese please!), and a tablespoon of dried parsley or equivalent fresh. We call that our "resurrection soup"...

Fresh ginger root and garlic are both wonderful when I'm feeling unwell. I make a ginger-nut-citrus-wholemeal flour-honey cake I eat instead of muesli bars, which are not particularly healthy food (although you can make your own with a reasonable nutritional profile). I make that with freshly grated ginger, and we also throw a lot of ginger (and garlic) in our stir-fries. I put it in my Chai tea (which I make with star anise, cloves, cardamon pods and thin slices of root ginger added to green tea) and Brett puts it in his black tea. Oh, and he was trawling through a soup book and found the most delicious carrot-ginger soup which I'm happy to post the recipe for, it's so nice, and such a pick-me-up!

A friend 20 years ago gave me her recipe for Thai beef salad which to me is like resurrection food - the dressing is chock full of lemon and lime juice, olive oil, garlic, fresh leaf coriander, mint and fish sauce, and has lemongrass and chilli in it too. (I wonder if vegetarians could apply that dressing to another salad with an acceptable vegetarian source of complete protein that would complement it in flavour.) Anyway, apart from obviously beef strips, the original has red onion, lots of snowpeas, whatever other salad vegetables you like (cucumber goes well here), and freshly ground pepper in the mix.

Another favourite pick-me-up food is Moroccan Harira, which I make both vegetarian and lamb versions of. Again, loads of vegetables and herbs, plus lentils and chickpeas - it's traditional Ramadan food, to see people through daytime fasting, so it's got to be very nutritious to do that.

Food is definitely medicinal if done well. 

What are _all y'all_'s favourite pick-me-up recipes?


----------



## loosie

There are a number of funnies going around...


----------



## SueC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

...and apparently so! We just did a spot of shopping in a neighbouring hippie town after a nice coastal hike this morning, and were happy to see they still had bulk rice (not that we needed any, it's just a measure of the local madness to see what has run out, to us), but there was no toilet paper at all in this shop either, which was well supplied with everything else that other places are running short of!

We have compost toilets, so to save toilet paper during this particular bout of public madness, I'm going to cut up some squares of worn-out all-cotton flanellette sheets and put them in a container for us to use. We're always looking for ways to re-purpose these anyway, and I already have enough for throwing over my climbing beans during heatwaves. It's a nice soft texture and absorbent, and will compost with no trouble at all in our system. If you're on flushing toilets, you could do what some hippies do and keep a lidded bucket with disinfecting solution to chuck the used fabric squares in, and just treat them like cloth nappies - when the bucket is full, go through the nappy protocol and then put them through the washing machine. There's always ways around. Of course, as @loosie reminded us, there's acres of Murdoch papers we can all use to wipe ourselves with. :Angel:


----------



## QtrBel

I do worry about the littles. Those with kids too young to be home alone but can't afford for someone to come in or to take off work themselves. I haven't heard word one about day care centers. Not all families have older siblings nor will all have retired older family. Neither of those groups may be willing or able or have the skills to handle kids for extended families. The older may have underlying health issues and the younger may be of the mind that they can mind themselves.

Post monster ate the edit. White pines are more northern and closer to the eastern coast and may not be found in many more southern or western areas. Here there are a few of counties - literally 3 that have them in any numbers that you might find them in the wild so unless you planted them they aren't an option.

Boiling the needles will destroy most if not all the vitamin C. Also makes it bitter. Low heat, long steep. The youngest needles give best flavor and the older have greater vitamin content including C. Cedar and cedar berries can be used too. Those you can find in the south. The bad thing about foraging is that some people don't pay close enough attention and pick plants they think are the ones that are useful and instead harvest something similar that may well be toxic.


----------



## SwissMiss

loosie said:


> Peanut butter is a good staple! I'm just dreading going to the bottle shop & finding everyone's bought up all the stout!


:rofl: DH went grocery shopping last night. Lysol, hand sanitizer and such are nowhere to be found... When he came back, she carried a big box, saying he stocked up on sanitizer :biggrin: He went to the liquor store and stocked up, just in case


----------



## Spanish Rider

We are now getting desperate pleas from hospital physicians and nursing staff to stay at home and heed the government's isolation recommendations. I don't know if any of you speak Spanish, but the following is a video from an ER physician in southern Spain (Andalusia), angrily begging teens and youth to cooperate and *STAY HOME* to stop the spread of the virus to their parents and grandparents.

If any of you have Spanish-speaking contacts in the US, passing this video along will do a lot to educate collectives that might not be informed or understand the potential gravity of the situation.


----------



## AnitaAnne

RegalCharm said:


> I have something in my stash that is well above 60% alcohol. burns with an invisible flame and in an emergency can be used in the gas tank but has to be watered down with gasoline or it will burn a hole in the top of the pistons. Got it from a friend who knows this guy who is a friend who knows this guy and you leave a $20. in a spot and come back in an hour to pick up your mason jar. :rofl::rofl::rofl: J/K you don't have to leave any money and return later.


I have some mason jars...

:thumbsup::cheers:


----------



## Spanish Rider

The government is now getting empty hotels in Madrid ready. My niece, 5th year medical student, is being prepared. Also, the medical students have started an anonymous website where people at home can provide basic info (age, zip code/street [not number], symptoms and chronic diseases) in order to identify 'hot-spots' and prepare hospitals in those areas.

Hopefully, a similar initiative will begin in the US, as the wide spread of the disease may lead to several different hot-spots across the nation.


----------



## farmpony84

I just threw the milk away. It was clumpy. I am low on toilet paper and out of bread. I have an aversion to grocery stores. I guess today int he day I fight the hoards... Sigh...


----------



## AnitaAnne

SwissMiss said:


> :rofl: DH went grocery shopping last night. Lysol, hand sanitizer and such are nowhere to be found... When he came back, she carried a big box, saying he stocked up on sanitizer :biggrin: He went to the liquor store and stocked up, just in case


Two weeks quarantine with even the best kiddos and we all may need one of those boxes 

:winetime:​


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## Spanish Rider

We are skipping the hand sanitizer. For home use, soap & water is easier and better. Besides, I don't think the sanitizer will get into all the cracks on my fingers after so much cleaning!


----------



## Spanish Rider

> Two weeks quarantine with even the best kiddos and we all may need one of those boxes


The Chinese study in The Lancet reported viral shedding in survivors for an average of 20 days. Two weeks is not enough for safety's sake. In Europe, they are using 2-week isolation protocols because legally they cannot extend them without a parliamentary vote. In Spain, the opposition party has already voiced it's support of a longer isolation period. @SwissMiss , maybe DH needs to pick up another one of those special 'survival' kits?:rofl::cheers::winetime:


----------



## gunslinger

farmpony84 said:


> I just threw the milk away. It was clumpy. I am low on toilet paper and out of bread. I have an aversion to grocery stores. I guess today int he day I fight the hoards... Sigh...



Just an observation.....
Amazon has toilet paper......also, online shopping apps, in my case Food City, which has a store a mile down the road.....in this case, I put toilet paper in the cart and it shows available for pickup at 12:30 pm.....


----------



## boots

Spanish Rider said:


> The government is now getting empty hotels in Madrid ready. My niece, 5th year medical student, is being prepared. Also, the medical students have started an anonymous website where people at home can provide basic info (age, zip code/street [not number], symptoms and chronic diseases) in order to identify 'hot-spots' and prepare hospitals in those areas.
> 
> Hopefully, a similar initiative will begin in the US, as the wide spread of the disease may lead to several different hot-spots across the nation.


We have similar local and federal websites. Some hospitals have arranged for "patient rooms" in local motels, if needed. At least in the states in my area (the northern plain and Mtn states).


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## gunslinger

One thing for sure, it's a brave new world....fear is a powerful force.....but, it's not inspired by god.....see it for what it is.


Isaiah 41:10
Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.


This is going to be okay.....it'll work itself out. Have courage, be brave, have faith....and hope....God be with you all.


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## cbar

@Acadianartist, that tea sounds great. I don't think we have white pine though. I am good about drinking green tea and chamomile and normally I can halt any colds before they get worse. 

I also still workout and get lots of fresh air when I'm sick and I really do think that helps. 

I guess in the last couple days our stores are just insane. I do need to go and buy dog feed at some point next week and I really hope things have chilled out a bit by then. There are a few essentials I need to buy like flour...but I may just go to our local co-op as the people out here in the sticks don't seem to be quite as nuts. 

Like @tinyliny, I make all my own bread too, so I'm not too worried about a shortage there - but need to make sure I have lots of flour. I make sourdough buns probably once or twice a week. 

It is hard to not feel a little anxious knowing that so many things are being shut-down/cancelled. In places overseas that have implemented quarantine - are you still able to go out to get necessities??


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## Spanish Rider

> This is going to be okay.....it'll work itself out. Have courage, be brave, have faith....and hope....God be with you all.


Again, I do not mean for my bleak messages to instill fear. I am merely trying to fulfill what I perceive to be a duty to others so they are prepared and take this situation seriously. We all have older family members and those with chronic diseases whose lives depend on it. We need to slow this beast down in order to grapple its ankles.

Unfortunately, I know at there are certain Americans (and I am American, so I feel the need to say this) who are lulled into a false sense of security based on American healthcare being the best in the world. And it is, in terms of research and innovation. But the Spanish healthcare system is ranked 3rd in the world, and ranked 1st in organ tranplantation. We have the same protocols, technologies and physicians are trained equally well. And in Madrid, this virus is kicking their behinds after 5 days.

The fact is that there is NO country on this planet that can provide care for 20% of the population requiring medical care, including 5% of the population requiring ICU care, SIMULTANEOUSLY.



> In places overseas that have implemented quarantine - are you still able to go out to get necessities??


Only essential stores (supermarkets, pharmacies and gas stations) are open here since yesterday. The rumored next step with be to assign supermarkets with a limit of people they can allow in while still guaranteeing a space of 1.5 meters (5 feet) between them.


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## pheobe111

woo hoo, no more classes for the rest of the term


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## SilverMaple

Our governor stated that with the 'low number of confirmed cases in the US, it isn't prudent to cancel school at this point.' 

Facepalm. Gah. The 'low number' of confirmed cases is because they aren't testing!! States around us with FEWER cases are cancelling, but la de da, we'll continue on with our heads in the sand.

Yeah, so once it explodes, THEN we'll cancel school and it will be too late.


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## RegalCharm

AnitaAnne said:


> I have some mason jars...
> 
> :thumbsup::cheers:


Are they empty? :biggrin: if not, party time :happydance::rofl:

Being in the South you probably know a friend of a person who can get them filled.


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## SwissMiss

SilverMaple said:


> Our governor stated that with the 'low number of confirmed cases in the US, it isn't prudent to cancel school at this point.'
> 
> Facepalm. Gah. The 'low number' of confirmed cases is because they aren't testing!! States around us with FEWER cases are cancelling, but la de da, we'll continue on with our heads in the sand.
> 
> Yeah, so once it explodes, THEN we'll cancel school and it will be too late.


Of course. The best way to keep the numbers of confirmed cases low is to not test. And science isn't real anyway :Angel: Sounds logical, right? Sometimes I want to bang my head on the wall.

We just got word from school that the next two weeks are out. Makes sense to keep kids out of school 2 weeks after spring break... Doesn't mean it makes it easy for us (we both work and can't take off and don't have family), but it is the right thing to do atm...

I think I need some more sanitizer :winetime:


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## RegalCharm

farmpony84 said:


> Wait - what?! NO PEANUT BUTTER?????!!!!!
> 
> Thems fighting' words. I'd riot over peanut butter.


 @farmpony84 Was at Dollar General this morning and they had jars of PB on shelves. Even like the 4 lb. jars. and smaller. Even found a qt. bottle of rubbing alcohol. Picked up 2 pks. of TP plus canned dog food

There was cars from out of state. parked next to a suv from NY.


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## tinyliny

the governments should put every energy into developing a vaccine. It's not like the virus will disappear this summer. It will hang around until there are large numbers of persons who have developed immunity. so called, "herd immunity".


The reason for the implementation of the social distancing policies is to slow down the spread so that it won't overwhelm existing hospital facilities. It can make a huge difference in the number of fatalies, as evidenced by different cities and their varied responses to the 1918 flu pandemic.


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## jaydee

The toilet roll eating locusts went through CT sometime this week! 

Also very few carrots, bananas, potatoes, frozen peas and beans, pasta and kitchen and bathroom cleaning products.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Statistics are interesting to me.....

Smoking is the leading cause of preventable death. Worldwide, tobacco use causes more than 7 million deaths per year!!!!!
Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States alone, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke. exposure. This is about one in five deaths annually, or 1,300 deaths every day. On average, smokers die 10 years earlier than nonsmokers.Nov 28, 2018

Alcohol-Related Deaths:
An estimated 88,000 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women) die from alcohol-related causes annually, making alcoholthe third leading preventable cause of death in the United States. The first is tobacco, and the second is poor diet and physical inactivity. (Feb 4, 2020).

In early 2019, a publication from the Global Burden of Disease Study (GBD) estimated a range of 99,000 to 200,000 annual deaths from lower respiratory tract infections directly attributable to INFLUENZA.

Coronavirus (Worldwide)* Cases: 155,829
Deaths: 5,814
Recovered: 74,438

The common flu has a death rate of about 0.1%
Corona death rate about 1.5% to 2.5% (total statics unknown but current rates)

Ebola death rate (W. Africa) is 90%!



Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## QtrBel

Looked like our Walmart this morning. I just went in for a few staples. Came out with some things I didn't need yet but while they are on the shelf I figured I better go ahead and get them. No bread except tortillas and some potato bread, no pasta, no flour, baking soda or powder, no salt, sugar, rice, dried or canned beans, no frozen peas - field or green. All the salsa gone. All Mac&Cheese gone. Had to buy an alternate brand milk. No yogurt and very few cottage cheese. Butter gone except the large multipack stick variety. I'm actually fine with that as it freezes. Shred and flat cheese gone - except for a couple of the large 5 pound packages you see at Sam's. There were a few scattered egg cartons but I'd bet the eggs were broken. I have to wonder if these people actually know what to do with what they are buying. The frozen foods wee reasonably stocked with the exception of the pizza aisle. Sad for the people that those are their staple items and they can't restock until the store does and that will be only if the hordes die down. And oatmeal, no oatmeal. That was on my need to restock list as I only have a few days left. I may try again in the morning around 5 when I get up. I still need onions, garlic, carrots and such. Totally forgot those trying to avoid getting run over. 



I hope everyone is finding what they need. Prating for good health for all. I still need to go back as reading this thread has been sort of hit and miss. About to open a bottle of sanitizer myself. Well, I'll have to wait until - nope - he has a learner;s permit. I may bring mine with and sit in under the trees by the pond while the boy does his job.....:winetime::winetime::winetime: Ok they got a little happy.


Not to worry about TP according to the husband as the trees could use fertilizing and we can reserve the paper for solids. He forgets that is how he got his most embarrassingly painful case of poison ivy.


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## AnitaAnne

RegalCharm said:


> Are they empty? :biggrin: if not, party time :happydance::rofl:
> 
> Being in the South you probably know a friend of a person who can get them filled.


Oh yes, I know people who have friends who know people that will fill Mason Jars...:smile: Got an offer for some just last month :rofl:


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## AnitaAnne

This statement, by @Spanish Rider says it all...


The fact is that there is *NO* country on this planet that can provide care for 20% of the population requiring medical care, including 5% of the population requiring ICU care, SIMULTANEOUSLY.



I need to go get horse feed, and dog food, and might just pick up some of those big bottles of sanitizer. I have a glass that says "It's not drinking alone if your dog is in the room:  :winetime:


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## tinyliny

good luck finding any kind of sanitizer.


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## Spanish Rider

Tanks lined up on the northern border of Madrid this afternoon.


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## ACinATX

@Spanish Rider For what? To keep out germs?


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## Spanish Rider

To keep people in their homes and off the streets, to provide essential transportation lines open, to prevent mass panicked exodus of 6.5 million people…

There are any number of possibilities. And this is no joke. Calle me an extremist, and I sincerely hope that in a few weeks' time you will all be laughing at me. But, if not, at least you can't say that I didn't warn anyone.


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## ACinATX

I went to my local corner store out of curiosity (and because I needed cheese). Yes, they are 100% out of TP. I couldn't believe it. 
They were also running low on pasta, sauce, rice, and canned goods. Also, strangely enough, chips. Is that a Texas thing?


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## Acadianartist

That's crazy @*Spanish Rider* ! Wow. 

My parents and kids think I'm overreacting. Not hubby, he's on board. We're ready to hole up for a month if we have to. On the other hand, my parents left my house this morning and were going to meet some of their friends at a restaurants. I just look at them and shake my head. Both in their 70s, both having recently had surgery. I just barely got them convinced to cancel their trip to Florida (they were supposed to leave Monday). They're totally in denial about this, and think I'm making too much of it. I told them fine, go eat out. But don't come back here after, not for the next 14 days. 

Meantime, my son who just turned 17 asked if he could go hang out with his friends. I said no, and he's not happy. But I asked a friend who is an ER nurse in the hospital in my town, and she said NO! Do NOT let your kids socialize or cancelling school for two weeks will have been pointless. Some parents have no choice, they have to go to work, and some have preschool aged kids so they'll need childcare. But I will be going fully online for work, so I can stay home and create a bubble around our house to some extent.


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## RegalCharm

AnitaAnne said:


> Oh yes, I know people who have friends who know people that will fill Mason Jars...:smile: Got an offer for some just last month :rofl:


Nope ain't doing it. Nope. Would be funny but nope ain't gone a touch it , even with a 20 ft. pole. Already got a warning from the censor police for trying to go around the forum word censor. Nope just can't do it. :Angel: I'm trying really hard. 
@QtrBel he grabbed the wrong kind of leaf did he. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Horsef

Acadianartist said:


> That's crazy @*Spanish Rider* ! Wow.
> 
> My parents and kids think I'm overreacting. Not hubby, he's on board. We're ready to hole up for a month if we have to. On the other hand, my parents left my house this morning and were going to meet some of their friends at a restaurants. I just look at them and shake my head. Both in their 70s, both having recently had surgery. I just barely got them convinced to cancel their trip to Florida (they were supposed to leave Monday). They're totally in denial about this, and think I'm making too much of it. I told them fine, go eat out. But don't come back here after, not for the next 14 days.
> 
> Meantime, my son who just turned 17 asked if he could go hang out with his friends. I said no, and he's not happy. But I asked a friend who is an ER nurse in the hospital in my town, and she said NO! Do NOT let your kids socialize or cancelling school for two weeks will have been pointless. Some parents have no choice, they have to go to work, and some have preschool aged kids so they'll need childcare. But I will be going fully online for work, so I can stay home and create a bubble around our house to some extent.


They might not be in denial at all, just at peace with their mortality. My mum has a serious chronic illness and would be extremely critical if she caught it. She said that she is ready and wouldn’t mind going. She just hopes that it isn’t too painful. She is behaving so far and isn’t going outside but that seems to be more for our peace of mind than her own. Scary times.


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## trailhorserider

Spanish Rider said:


> Calle me an extremist, and I sincerely hope that in a few weeks' time you will all be laughing at me. But, if not, at least you can't say that I didn't warn anyone.


I hear ya! We have been worried about this for about a month (since my Mom is in poor health) and watch all the people around us poo-poo it. I even mentioned the Corona virus on here on a thread about the flu (back, I dunno, early to mid February?) and nobody seemed particularly worried, even calling it a "tempest in a tea cup." Well, I think it has most people's attention now, at least anyone with any brain cells.

We did most of our sanitizer shopping over a week ago and had no trouble getting hand sanitizer, rubbing alcohol, disinfectant wipes, etc. Now, I don't think you can find that on the store shelves anywhere in our area. 

I did a little shopping today just basically for perishable food items and Walmart didn't have a single egg! But we had no problems getting milk, bread, meat, etc. And then I stopped off at a regular grocery store and found eggs. Not cheap eggs, but at least they had them. Everyone honestly DOES seem to be out of toilet paper!


Toilet paper is the one thing we actually _didn't_ need to buy, since we generally stock up when they put it on sale. But yeah, shopping today was cordial but a little stressful. Everyone was friendly but had cart loads of stuff. I avoided two people coughing and one cashier with a snotty nose. And sanitized super well when I got to the car. (And of course my shopping cart going into the store) I did the best I could........hopefully didn't catch anything! 

Normally my parents like to shop too, but that's 3 x the chances of catching something, so being the youngest and healthiest I did all the shopping today. 

I really wanted to spend my "home" time riding, riding and more riding, but the weather has been yucky so I've been pretty much been working form home and taking care of my parents. Hoping to get a chance to ride in a few days.


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## SilverMaple

It's going to be tough for us as I don't get paid if we close the library, but what's the point of closing schools if all the kids come to the library? And so many of our patrons are elderly or high-risk, too. And once I get it, we'll have to be closed because I'm the only full-time employee, and I'm not forcing my staff to work as both are also high-risk if they catch it. I have a ton of sick days, but I can't use them if we close unless I'm actually sick. 

No closed schools here so far. I've been warning people about this since late January and they all think I'm nuts. Ah well, we have groceries and sanitizer and food and toilet paper... many of them now don't. Parents are pressuring the schools to 'use common sense and stay open.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

I know we're the oddballs but we still eat out and carry on life as usual. I can't imagine stocking supplies to stay in the house for a month.
When doctors say wash your hands they mean soap and water which is cheap and works just as well.
Over the years I always see positive things coming from bad events. Eventually the stock market will go back up which means especially young people it may be a good time to buy when it's low. Especially consumer staples which have been selling like crazy.
People may become more health conscious about washing hands, not touching face (in public), sneezing, etc. 
Travel by plane, boat, bus, subway I bet they're cleaner now than ever!
If we (the CDC, WHO, etc) determines what started this virus initially maybe it could be prevented in the future, similar viruses.
A vaccine or treatment going forward would mean better health treatment in the future.
Panic does absolutely no good. I believe hope, a positive outlook and optimism in itself can be psychologically and physically healthy.









Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## trailhorserider

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> When doctors say wash your hands they mean soap and water which is cheap and works just as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk



But think about all the places you can't wash your hands. The great thing about sanitizer is you can use it anywhere. Like store shopping cart handles before I shop and after I put my groceries in the car, before I eat something or need to touch my face. Soap and water is great, but you just can't use it as often when you are out and about.

And THEN, washing your hands in a public restroom is fraught with difficulties keeping your hands clean even after you wash them! You frequently need to touch the towel dispenser or door handle just to get out. My Dad has a method he uses of carrying napkins in his pocket so he can wash his hands and use the napkin to dry them and then get out of the door but I hate trying to juggle a pocket full of napkins. So many places nowadays won't even put paper towels in the restroom! How the heck are you supposed to get out.......grab the dirty door handle?

Anyway, my family was into sanitizer before sanitizer was "in." :wink:

I appreciate grocery stores making an effort to keep wipes for the cart handles. Sometimes they are out, but I really appreciate that they have them most of the time.


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## aubie

Cases in my country doubled over night.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

trailhorserider said:


> But think about all the places you can't wash your hands. The great thing about sanitizer is you can use it anywhere. Like store shopping cart handles before I shop and after I put my groceries in the car, before I eat something or need to touch my face. Soap and water is great, but you just can't use it as often when you are out and about.
> 
> And THEN, washing your hands in a public restroom is fraught with difficulties keeping your hands clean even after you wash them! You frequently need to touch the towel dispenser or door handle just to get out. My Dad has a method he uses of carrying napkins in his pocket so he can wash his hands and use the napkin to dry them and then get out of the door but I hate trying to juggle a pocket full of napkins. So many places nowadays won't even put paper towels in the restroom! How the heck are you supposed to get out.......grab the dirty door handle?
> 
> Anyway, my family was into sanitizer before sanitizer was "in." :wink:
> 
> I appreciate grocery stores making an effort to keep wipes for the cart handles. Sometimes they are out, but I really appreciate that they have them most of the time.


I agree with you. As a kid I remember women wore gloves when shopping, white cloth gloves were common.
If sanitizer is hard to find, a container of water, soap, washcloth or paper towel would work.
I've always disliked public bathrooms with doorknobs! I usually put something there so door won't close all the way (using my shoe[emoji16]). 

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## Horsef

People who don’t keep their horses at home: has your yard spoken to you about how they would handle a mass infection by staff? I keep my horse at a small yard, just the BO and two employees. If they all get sick, I guess boarders will have to step in but I wonder how that would work if there is a ban on movement? Ugh. I suppose we could just put them in turnout with lots of food and water and hope for the best.


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## Spanish Rider

> They might not be in denial at all, just at peace with their mortality. My mum has a serious chronic illness and would be extremely critical if she caught it. She said that she is ready and wouldn’t mind going. She just hopes that it isn’t too painful. She is behaving so far and isn’t going outside but that seems to be more for our peace of mind than her own. Scary times.


I think you are correct, and that this is true of the senior population, my mum included.

However, saturated hospitals mean less or no care for everyone else: accident victims, heart attacks, elective surgeries, cancer patients, etc. My son is in treatment for an unknown cardiac/renal/adrenal disease. He had blood work scheduled for this week and a CT scan scheduled for next week, but now none of that will happen. Until this is over, or at least under control, many other patients will not be receiving optimal care, if any.


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## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> I think you are correct, and that this is true of the senior population, my mum included.
> 
> However, saturated hospitals mean less or no care for everyone else: accident victims, heart attacks, elective surgeries, cancer patients, etc. My son is in treatment for an unknown cardiac/renal/adrenal disease. He had blood work scheduled for this week and a CT scan scheduled for next week, but now none of that will happen. Until this is over, or at least under control, many other patients will not be receiving optimal care, if any.


My cousin just had a difficult birth with a very premature baby and we are all hoping that they will have the best possible care. So far there have been no disruptions, but I guess they will have to stretch the staff thin as this goes on. Even if they don’t pull the obstetrician staff, some of them are bound to get sick.

I am sorry your son is having so much trouble.


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## RegalCharm

Vice President Mike Pence confirmed later in the briefing that the travel from U.K. and Ireland would be suspended as of midnight Monday night EDT. He said it was after the unanimous recommendation from health experts at the White House.

Pence emphasized that Americans currently abroad will be allowed to return home, but will be tested for the virus on their return through certain, limited airports. 

As for whether the administration is considering travel restrictions within the U.S., Pence referred back to Trump's remarks and said "we're considering a broad range of measures, but no decisions have been made yet."


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## SilverMaple

Our state governor just had a press conference saying they will not be closing schools except if a student tests positive, and then only for a day for cleaning... 

Meanwhile, all gatherings of 250 people or more are banned.... most schools have a lot more people in them than that. It makes no sense.


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## AnitaAnne

tinyliny said:


> good luck finding any kind of sanitizer.


Sorry, not that kind of sanitizer...the kind that comes from the liquor store...


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## farmpony84

One of the schools here was going to do an every other day thing so they could clean on the off days. There is confusion because some news sources say 4-6 hours and others say 10-14 days on cleaning/killing the virus. 

Our kids started Spring break on Friday so the 2 week break is really only an extra five days. Those are covered because they didn't have any snow days. Maybe one so they won't even have to make them up.

I do know that they are working to set up home-schooling if it is what needs to be done. The biggest thing is to keep the old and the immune compromised safe. That's really why they are wanting to stop the thread. If it wasn't so dangerous for that group of people then you could just let it run its course....

I feel sad that kids are missing out on spring sports and potentially prom but it is what it is.... I remember living off beans for a while in Germany when they pulled all the meat off the shelves. We felt sorry for ourselves thing but we survived...


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## loosie

SwissMiss said:


> :rofl: DH went grocery shopping last night. Lysol, hand sanitizer and such are nowhere to be found... When he came back, she carried a big box, saying he stocked up on sanitizer :biggrin: He went to the liquor store and stocked up, just in case


Yeah well, hand sanitiser, vodka... same same!


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## loosie

SilverMaple said:


> Our governor stated that with the 'low number of confirmed cases in the US, it isn't prudent to cancel school at this point.'
> 
> Facepalm. Gah. The 'low number' of confirmed cases is because they aren't testing!! States around us with FEWER cases are cancelling, but la de da, we'll continue on with our heads in the sand.
> 
> Yeah, so once it explodes, THEN we'll cancel school and it will be too late.


Sounds exactly like our policy - it's not a big problem yet, so we will wait. They're also advising that anyone with just mild symptoms, such as 'just a sore throat & bit of a fever' needn't worry & needn't be tested unless they've been overseas lately. And of course, there's no need to close schools, because kids 'tend to just get over it'... or something.


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## loosie

Aussies may be amused by...


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## tinyliny

Who?


Ok. Seattle is one of the first, and therefore longest infected hot spots. Schools , all of them, have been closed for a few days now. Grocery stores are doing ok, as far as I know, but only because we have very good supply chains here.


I have not heard of a single additional death, nor few new cases. I'm gonna guess that's due to social distancing. That said, I plan to join a friend at a restaurant, a CHINESE restaurant, for lunch tomorrow. This is to support the owners, who we consider friends. I will bring my own chopsticks! Hot hot food should be ok, as long as the cook/server doesn't sneeze on it. There will be no one there but us and our hand sanitizer! (the regular kind)


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## SueC

loosie said:


> Aussies may be amused by...


:rofl: I am, keep 'em coming!

Here's First Dog On The Moon's Guide (click to enlarge):










...from https://www.theguardian.com/comment...andy-hints-to-stick-on-your-fridge-and-forget


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## SueC

...and speaking of potatoes...










...from https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-your-super-dull-government-imposed-isolation


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## loosie

^Ha, I just paid those forward to FB on those, after sharing stuff here from it.


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## mslady254

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> I know we're the oddballs but we still eat out and carry on life as usual. I can't imagine stocking supplies to stay in the house for a month.


If everyone continues to carry on life as usual, this virus will spread exponentially and there will be many more deaths from it. The elderly, or vulnerable person(s) whom is saved by the practice of social distancing and the other recommended measures may be your own relative....mother, uncle, etc. Can't you modify your normal routines just a bit without feeling deprived of life as usual.....avoid being in large groups (currently defined as over 250 people,but that may change), reduce the number of times you go to public places , wash your hands frequently and refrain from touching your face unless you have just washed your hands, etc,etc, we've all heard the CDC guidelines. Since you can't imagine stocking supplies to stay in the house for a month,,,,I think currently the recommendation is for 2 weeks,,,,,then you may face the reality of staying in the house without supplies,,,,or if infected/been in contact with someone who tests positive-face the reality of spreading the virus because you failed to stock up on supplies and can't do a self isolation. 

I encourage everyone to read the accounts from Italy. No need to panic, but we must comply with the containment measures recommended or we (any country) will end up like Italy....overwhelmed heathcare,hospitals,doctors,nurses,not enough ventilators, etc. A little bit of sacrifice on eveyone's part now will go a very long way to flatten the curve (on a graph representation of the spread of the virus) and hasten the end of the pandemic. A lack of cooperation for the communal good will literally cause deaths, it's that simple., not necessisarly by every single person who doesn't cooperate,but certainly by some of them. Do you want to risk being one of the 'some'? If the death rate for this is 1% (and it's projected higher), then you can estimate for every death reported, say,,in your state, county,etc,,there are 100 people with the virus. It's simple math, ,,if correct. 

Yes, the flu kills many thousands every year and we're not asked to practice containment, much less mitigation measures. However, the death rate is lower for the flu (recent ones, not all), and the number of cases requiring hospitalization has not overwhelmed the resources of healthcare as this virus has in areas where containment measures were not implemented in time. 

Stay calm. Stay safe. Take measures for the common good even if you are low risk and likely to only be mildly ill if you contract the virus,,,it's the most vulnerable around us whom we are protecting with these measures.


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## Captain Evil

I don't know how single parents or parents who both work are going to deal with school closures; that is going to be very difficult. If they use daycare, what is the point of closing schools? I don't know if Maine has a state wide school closure yet, but every school I know of is closed.

These are tough times, and I hope they soon pass. As some of you know, DH and I make our living doing largely non-essential things: setting moorings, salvaging boats, doing underwater commercial work, fishing and running occasional trips abroad, taking divers to other lands to go scuba diving. 

This trip, scheduled for March 14-22 to Virgin Gorda was to be our last, for a lot of reasons, but we never anticipated a pandemic...

We almost made it. We had twelve, all but one canceled - travel canceled due to a pandemic is NOT covered by travel insurance, so every cancelee had to take the hit for the entire trip cost. And two were family groups...

After all but one canceled others called up wanting to join last minute, and I do mean last minute. We ended up with a group of 6 very experienced divers. I went from being a working divemaster with a pile of new divers to being the least experienced one there. Our group was so excited because it meant that the whole nature of the trip shifted from easy shallow beautiful dives to anything goes diving. (A family of four called us while we were at the airport hotel the night before our 6:00 am flight, wanting in, but two young divers heading off into who knowswhat? We said not).

Anyway, then our tough group began dropping. One dropped out as DH and I were leaving for the airport: he came in wild-eyed and stressed to the max because school cancelled and his wife had important meetings at work... got it. No sweat. Then two more divers called two hours before our plane was to go: they had fevers.

So were sitting in the airport, me, DH and our one intrepid diver, playing a game of chicken. Who would cancel first? 

Not me and DH, that is for sure. If we canceled, we would have to refund ALL of our origional divers the entire amount that they paid us and that would have beenfinancially impossible for us. Our intrepid diver would not cancel because he his daughters were home for school and he did not want to be there, and he has a running "I'm tougher than you are" rivalry with wild-eyed man, and this would be a major coup. 

But finally, he caved. Whew. The guy at the counter said, "I don't care what it costs you to cancel, it will be the best money you ever spent." 

So, a long post, but I figure some of you guys are stuck at home with nothing to do... 

Here is a poster from the airport bathroom. I'm always rushing about being twitchy and spooky and I HATE taking the time for handwashing, hairbrushing and toothbrushing (which is whiy I love my electric toothbrush - it times me. No cheating!). Anyway, I found it surprisingly helpful:









I do Jolene...


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## Foxhunter

The latest suggestion here is that anyone 70+ self isolates for three months. Yeah, can see that happening! 

If I stayed in the house for three months they would need a builder to widen the door to get me out before taking me to the psych ward.


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## Spanish Rider

@Horsef , I am sure that the NICU protocol will be adapted to protect babies and staff, although family members might not be allowed admittance. It depends on where you are and the number of cases. But, reports of babies and newborns with C-19 have all had very good results, so no worries!


Day 3 of confinement: 

Reports from Madrid are that all ICUs are full. Colleagues in Madrid and Toledo report that testing is no longer being done and all patients are being considered positive for C-19. Testing is only being done for patients with pneumonia to confirm C-19 before administering antivirals and directed therapies. Reports of 'dry cough' are a fallacy; all types of cough are being seen.

The President has authorized the army to perform 'policing functions'.

No one allowed on the streets. Only to go to hospital, supermarket or gas station, or those who are 'essential workers' (police, fire, medical staff, truckers, sanitation, supermarket/gas station workers and anyone associated with production and supply chain of food, medicines, etc.).


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## Fuddyduddy1952

The news, TV, internet, radio, whether local, state, national or international thrives on tragedy. Usually it's something new and different every few weeks.
I'm not saying Covid-19 is nothing to be concerned with, however, compare it to these statistics...

At least 12,000 people have died from influenza between Oct. 1, 2019 through Feb. 1, 2020, and the number of deaths may be as high as 30,000.
Alcohol consumption is responsible for one in 20 deaths globally each year, according to a World Health Organization (WHO) report released Friday. Worldwide, harmful use of alcohol kills up to 3 million people annually, accounting for 5% of the global disease burden.
Tobacco kills up to half of its users. Tobacco kills more than 8 million people each year. More than 7 million of those deaths are the result of direct tobacco use while around 1.2 million are the result of non-smokers being exposed to second-hand smoke.
???Am I misinformed, out of touch,crazy???









Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## mslady254

@ Fuddyduddy, this is an excerpt that I copied from a Facebook post by a MD "Some of those people will get so sick that they cannot be saved and will die of the pneumonia. The overall death rate for people who develop symptoms seems to be 2 or 3 percent. Once we have enough testing to find out how many people caught the virus but did not develop symptoms, that might come down to about 1 percent, optimistically.

This is a large number. It is at least 10 times higher than the mortality rate for the seasonal flu, for instance, which in some years kills 60,000 or 70,000 Americans. So just on that math, we could be looking at 600,000 or 700,000 dead in the United States. But it gets worse.

Older people with existing health problems are much more vulnerable, on average. The mortality rate of coronavirus among people over age 80 may be 15 or 20 percent. It appears to have 7 or 8 percent mortality for people aged 70 to 79. Here is the terrible part: If you are a healthy younger person, you can catch the virus and, without developing serious symptoms yourself, you can pass it along to older people. In other words, as the virus spreads, it is going to be very easy to go out and catch it, give it to your grandmother and kill her, even though you will not die yourself. You can catch it by touching a door knob or an elevator button.", 

also ,from the same post "Please stop passing around statements. on social media claiming that the situation is not serious or is being exaggerated. This is a national crisis and conveying misinformation to your friends and family may put their lives in danger"

I urge you to find the article on FB, if you can...I think originally posted by a Dr. Julie Silver...not sure. At any rate, I hope you can see why comparison to tobacco,alcohol, or even the flu is inappropriate and gives a false sense of the seriousness , or lack thereof,,,of the situation. 

Incidently, did you see my previous post*???* Yes, the media thrives on tragedy, but that shouldn't discount being cautious enough to follow recommendations to PROTECT OTHERS. You say that "I'm not saying Covid-19 is nothing to be concerned with, " yet, you seem to be NOT taking it seriously *enough* to attempt to follow recommended measures to slow down the spread of it from your earlier post. I hope I'm wrong.


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## farmpony84

They keep talking about the toilet paper... Has anyone checked the Condom aisle? I'm a little concerned about the uh.... state of the uh... condom aisle.....


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## ApuetsoT

Alcohol and tobacco related deaths are not contagious and are chronic conditions. You don't have ERs suddenly filling up from liver cirrhosis.


Influenza has an established foothold in our population with tested treatments, vaccines, and herd immunity. Not to mention the mortality rate is 10x lower than COVID19 and is half as contagious.

(Had to use google translate to get some of these stats)
If we look at Italy, they have about 8000 deaths annually from influenza. They are currently at 1400 from COVID19. It's been only 3 weeks since they reported their first death.

They have an expected daily mortality rate, *from any cause*, of 226. COVID19 has been killing half that every day for the last week.


Entire countries are shutting down and quarantining. That is not some media-driven panic. Buying up all the toilet paper is media-driven panic, not governments shutting down borders and banning gatherings. Governments are always blamed for putting money over lives, yet here we are, risking major economic disaster to stop the spread of this virus.


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## mslady254

Well said ApuetsoT, Well said!! I surely hope that those who don't think they should implement any of the containment measures read your post and have a change of mind! 

I just heard what I think it a great mindset " don't take measures to avoid the virus, assuming that you don't have it...instead act as if you DO have it and take measures to prevent spreading it" (my paraphrasing). I think this is the best advice for us.
@farmpony84,,,I noticed that the diaper shelves weren't emptied....I can't understand why the toilet paper shelves were empty, but the diaper shelves were well stocked....whats up with that reasoning????


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## boots

@Fuddyduddy1952 - I understand your point.

We should strive to do better in all areas of health. Hopefully, this virus recedes quickly.


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## farmpony84

@mslady254 Now that's funny! I don't care who you are... That's funny!


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## LoriF

I'm just not getting the TP thing. I can see hand sanitizer and alcohol, but TP? Why?


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## boots

LoriF said:


> I'm just not getting the TP thing. I can see hand sanitizer and alcohol, but TP? Why?


I don't understand bulk buying produce. There is no food shortage. No break in the supply chain. The food is going to spoil!

A gal in front of me at the store bought 3-25# bags of flour. The cashier asked " Wow. What are you making?" Customer responded, in an off-handed way "Oh. I don't know." She's going to get bugs or mice in it before she ever uses it up, I bet.


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## ApuetsoT

I had gone grocery shopping last before it got really crazy, but people were still starting to stock up. My normal grocery list includes rice(25lbs bags), canned beans and soup, frozen vegetables, and flour(to make bread) because that's what I eat. I also tend to buy a lot at once so I don't have to go shopping again for a while and it all keeps. I was a little self-conscious last time I was at the store; my cart made me look like a prepper! No TP though. One pack lasts me 6mo.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Everyone has an innate fear of death. My point was I believe the fear is based on the speed of death. A fast spreading virus is a lot more frightening than as so many friends and family members have or currently going through slow suicide. That "1.2 million are the result of non-smokers being exposed to second-hand smoke" statistic I mentioned to me is scary enough! And that's beyond the non-smokers control.
We all know as horse owners anyone could add a certain sick horse to a group and wipe out the rest of the herd.
This may be the most frightening in history:

The Spanish flu infected 500 million people around the world, or about 27% of the then world population of between 1.8 and 1.9 billion, including people on isolated Pacific islands and in the Arctic. The death toll is estimated to have been anywhere from 17 million to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, (675,000 Americans) it is one of the deadliest epidemics in human history.
The viral infection was no more aggressive than previous influenza strains. Instead, malnourishment, overcrowded medical camps and hospitals, and poor hygiene promoted bacterial superinfection. 
More U.S. soldiers died from the 1918 flu than were killed in battle during WWI.
Unlike today, there were no effective vaccines or antivirals, drugs that treat the flu. 

I'm not saying Covid isn't concerning, but we're better equipped after 100 years since the Spanish Flu to address it. 
Growing up on a farm my Grandparents were next door, Grandad was a physician.
I always remember him washing his hands I bet 50 times a day! 
Believe me, I'm not trying to make light of this, but maybe the idea is not to panic but use common sense precautions. 
We're not going to change our normal way of life. We're not going to lock ourselves in the house with 100 rolls of Charmin!

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## Foxhunter

I bought a large family pack of TP a couple of months ago because it was on offer, probably last me until July at least. Am I psychic to have done so? 

I do need to do a shop this week, need laundry stuff and butter, be interesting to see how stocked the store is.


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## Captain Evil

This is a strangely addictive and frightening website:

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Hope it works. I scored a 6 pack of TP on the way home from the airport: I also got half & half and I have coffee, so...

I don't get the TP thing either, but I am a born follower. I now have 10 rolls. Styling.


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## ACinATX

@Captain Evil cool link!

This page from Aljazeera is continuously updated with what countries around the world are doing. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...virus-fight-live-updates-200312054153018.html (you have to scroll down past the main article).
The nice thing about Aljazeera is that they have information about countries that other news outlets don't. I mean, maybe it doesn't matter to me personally that Brunei has banned OUTBOUND travel, for instance, but it's interesting.

I just got an email from Chewy saying my horse feed auto ship is delayed because of high demand. They claim it should be shipped within a week, but I'm skeptical. I'm glad I special ordered the alfalfa pellets last week. My guys don't really need feed --they only get it as an incentive to come in and as something to put their supps in-- so it's OK. I can mix what little I have left with the alfalfa pellets.

At the same time, I got an email from Smartpak saying that they are moving up all of their auto ship orders where possible, to try to get ahead of possible logistics issues.

I'm really glad I got my own hay this week. The barn owner isn't taking this very seriously and still has no reserves. She's actually hoping they will ban gatherings of more than 150 people, so (in her words) "More people will have to come to OUR shows because they are smaller." The show she held yesterday didn't bring in more than a handful of outside people or horses. And who wants to ramp up social gatherings right now???


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## gjb

Can't believe the booze is still on the shelves!


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## loosie

farmpony84 said:


> They keep talking about the toilet paper... Has anyone checked the Condom aisle? I'm a little concerned about the uh.... state of the uh... condom aisle.....


Haha! Apparently ppl that can't find gloves have been putting condoms on their fingers. At least, more logical than the toilet paper shemozzle.

Which may contribute to a baby boom in 9 months. Which in 2033 will give rise to a generation of Quarran Teens!


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## Captain Evil

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## LoriF

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Everyone has an innate fear of death. My point was I believe the fear is based on the speed of death. A fast spreading virus is a lot more frightening than as so many friends and family members have or currently going through slow suicide. That "1.2 million are the result of non-smokers being exposed to second-hand smoke" statistic I mentioned to me is scary enough! And that's beyond the non-smokers control.
> We all know as horse owners anyone could add a certain sick horse to a group and wipe out the rest of the herd.
> This may be the most frightening in history:
> 
> The Spanish flu infected 500 million people around the world, or about 27% of the then world population of between 1.8 and 1.9 billion, including people on isolated Pacific islands and in the Arctic. The death toll is estimated to have been anywhere from 17 million to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, (675,000 Americans) it is one of the deadliest epidemics in human history.
> The viral infection was no more aggressive than previous influenza strains. Instead, malnourishment, overcrowded medical camps and hospitals, and poor hygiene promoted bacterial superinfection.
> More U.S. soldiers died from the 1918 flu than were killed in battle during WWI.
> Unlike today, there were no effective vaccines or antivirals, drugs that treat the flu.
> 
> I'm not saying Covid isn't concerning, but we're better equipped after 100 years since the Spanish Flu to address it.
> Growing up on a farm my Grandparents were next door, Grandad was a physician.
> I always remember him washing his hands I bet 50 times a day!
> Believe me, I'm not trying to make light of this, but maybe the idea is not to panic but use common sense precautions.
> We're not going to change our normal way of life. We're not going to lock ourselves in the house with 100 rolls of Charmin!
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


Exactly this. But meanwhile, everyone is rushing off to Walmarts, Costco, BJ's or wherever there is large crowds of people, standing in line with their hands on the basket handles to pay for it. Hope they are washing their hands.

For now, I am working on the trains. Staying away as much as I can from crowds and washing my hands well and often, and keeping them out of my face. The latter is not an easy feat either. 

Mom was supposed to fly to Central California to visit her best friend of 73 years. Seriously, they have been friends since kindergarten. She cancelled because of her age and she has compromised lungs with asthma already. They will see each other another time.


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## loosie

But jokes aside, Fuddy's response has reminded me, because of media hype & government misinformation being rife, there are a lot of people not taking this seriously. 

Message from our own principal to say schools on & spouting about it being safe unless you're close contact with an infected over 15 minutes or in a room with said for over 2 hrs... 

Can't blame the non-thinking people for believing what our CMA has publicly advised, and the rest of us being a tad confused...

Noises about symptoms being a dry cough, not snotty, hold your breath for 10 seconds & if you don't cough you're good to go, virus can't survive heat so drink hot drinks.... Etc etc. We need people with VERIFIED(& NOT from gov't sources) info to be loud about it!


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## MajorSealstheDeal

Husband and I have been stocking up on food for the past two weeks, mostly canned and dry goods. We keep to ourselves on a normal day, and we live in a small town an hour away in every direction from a decent grocery store, so stocking up is always a good idea to get a fair price. Today we ran into town to get some parts for something non-covid19 related. This was the first time at the grocery store that all the TP was sold out, the canned good aisle was decimated, there were only a few bottles of bleach left, and the chip aisle took a hard hit too. Oh and all the frozen fruit and veggies were gone. The cashiers said the last two or three days have been nuts.


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## pheobe111

well, so far were still the only province in canada with no confirmed cases.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

I'm glad we have the consumer staples fund!









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## SilverMaple

Sister-in-law, ER doctor, is pretty sure she has it. Fever, dry cough, tightness in her chest. She's immune to pretty much everything after working in ERs all over the world, in her 30's, runs triathlons, eats as healthily as possible, rarely gets sick and she says she hasn't ever felt this awful. She's supposed to go to work, though, because there are no tests available even for sick hospital staff, so they can't prove what it is, and their ER is full of sick people needing to be seen, and no other available doctors. So unless she tests positive, she's got to work. 

Kind of hard to test positive when there are no tests... and she's at an excellent hospital in an affluent area that usually has the best of everything, so if they can't get them, there are none to be had.


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## SilverMaple

mslady254 said:


> @farmpony84,,,I noticed that the diaper shelves weren't emptied....I can't understand why the toilet paper shelves were empty, but the diaper shelves were well stocked....whats up with that reasoning????


Only some people have babies. Everyone poops


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## tinyliny

farmpony84 said:


> They keep talking about the toilet paper... Has anyone checked the Condom aisle? I'm a little concerned about the uh.... state of the uh... condom aisle.....





there will be a wave of babies born, approximately 9 months from now. . They are to be called "Coronials".


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## pheobe111

tinyliny said:


> farmpony84 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They keep talking about the toilet paper... Has anyone checked the Condom aisle? I'm a little concerned about the uh.... state of the uh... condom aisle.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there will be a wave of babies born, approximately 9 months from now. . They are to be called "Coronials".
Click to expand...

and by 2033, the quarenteens.


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## SueC

Foxhunter said:


> The latest suggestion here is that anyone 70+ self isolates for three months. Yeah, can see that happening!
> 
> If I stayed in the house for three months they would need a builder to widen the door to get me out before taking me to the psych ward.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Bwahaha, this comment made my morning! Thank you, @Foxhunter! 

...I couldn't stay indoors for more than 24 hours without going crazy myself. Good thing there's acres of cow paddocks and bush all around us and no neighbours for half a kilometre or more!


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## SueC

SilverMaple said:


> Sister-in-law, ER doctor, is pretty sure she has it. Fever, dry cough, tightness in her chest. She's immune to pretty much everything after working in ERs all over the world, in her 30's, runs triathlons, eats as healthily as possible, rarely gets sick and she says she hasn't ever felt this awful. She's supposed to go to work, though, because there are no tests available even for sick hospital staff, so they can't prove what it is, and their ER is full of sick people needing to be seen, and no other available doctors. *So unless she tests positive, she's got to work. *


I don't geddit - COVID-19 or not, don't you guys have sick leave? Noone with a debilitating virus should go to work - both for their own sake and the sake of others.


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## LoriF

SilverMaple said:


> Sister-in-law, ER doctor, is pretty sure she has it. Fever, dry cough, tightness in her chest. She's immune to pretty much everything after working in ERs all over the world, in her 30's, runs triathlons, eats as healthily as possible, rarely gets sick and she says she hasn't ever felt this awful. She's supposed to go to work, though, because there are no tests available even for sick hospital staff, so they can't prove what it is, and their ER is full of sick people needing to be seen, and no other available doctors. So unless she tests positive, she's got to work.
> 
> Kind of hard to test positive when there are no tests... and she's at an excellent hospital in an affluent area that usually has the best of everything, so if they can't get them, there are none to be had.



So if there are no tests to be had then how is ANYONE testing and being confirmed positive for this virus?


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## SwissMiss

SueC said:


> I don't geddit - COVID-19 or not, don't you guys have sick leave? Noone with a debilitating virus should go to work - both for their own sake and the sake of others.


Nope, most don't have sick leave. No maternity leave as well for that matter...
p


LoriF said:


> So if there are no tests to be had then how is ANYONE testing and being confirmed positive for this virus?


This is how you keep the number of confirmed cases low :wink:
Until last Thursday here a physician had to request permission from the health department to get and do a test... No wonder there were very few cases in our state...


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## Fuddyduddy1952

.









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## SueC

SwissMiss said:


> Nope, most don't have sick leave. No maternity leave as well for that matter...


What - even permanent and fixed-term workers, like ER doctors, have no paid sick leave in the US??? mg:

But even if you don't have paid sick leave, surely you can take unpaid sick leave with a doctor's certificate? I understand this becomes difficult for low-income workers, but an ER doctor???


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## SueC

Just on how life is looking for us, yes we are avoiding crowds at the moment. In everyday terms things aren't vastly different because we live on a farm and are therefore already comparatively quarantined, and we generally avoid crowds anyway, except at concerts (but we don't have any of those lined up right now anyway) and for fortnightly grocery shopping (which we always do off-peak).

I run the farm and do my writing from home, so I don't get to town more than once a week at most anyway. The rest of the time I'm either on the farm, or going on a hike somewhere with my husband, and that rarely involves meeting another human being up close.

There are guests booked in for the weekend which I will be taking as usual, but Airbnb allows you to cancel for reasons related to COVID-19 prevention, and if anyone turns up with respiratory symptoms they will be turned away.

My husband has just gone back to work this morning after two weeks' annual leave. He works at a medical practice, so it's only a matter of time before he is exposed. They have good hygiene protocols there, which have for years included making anyone coming in with respiratory symptoms wear a mask, and this has cut down on staff getting ill, but not eliminated it.

If he comes down with a viral illness (COVID-19 or not) he will self-isolate in our bedroom/ensuite wing, and I will move to a guest bedroom and use the other bathroom, so that we don't both get ill at the same time if we can avoid it. I will drop food to the _external_ bedroom door and continue with the usual hygiene precautions. (We've never done it that way before, but after getting the flu simultaneously last year, have decided to approach it like this in future, COVID-19 or not).

We're currently on a prevention programme previously outlined here: https://www.horseforum.com/general-...pproaches-around-812919/page8/#post1970845209

By the way, here's excellent visuals on a clip out of Peru, to remind everyone how respiratory viruses are spread:


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## SueC

boots said:


> I don't understand bulk buying produce. There is no food shortage. No break in the supply chain. The food is going to spoil!
> 
> A gal in front of me at the store bought 3-25# bags of flour. The cashier asked " Wow. What are you making?" Customer responded, in an off-handed way "Oh. I don't know." She's going to get bugs or mice in it before she ever uses it up, I bet.


Yes, I think it's funny that people who actually have no idea how to cook from scratch and usually live off packet foods and microwave meals are over-buying cooking staples. I think a lot of their flour and dried beans etc is just going to sit there for years after the population acclimatises to COVID-19.

We actually had no need to stock up on anything because we grow most of our own F&V, the garden is in peak production right now, and I buy my wholemeal flours, brown rice, dried lentils, beans, nuts etc in bulk, plus we'd just bought a bulk pack of someone else's home kill, so there's enough meat to last us a couple of months. The freezer is groaning with excess summer harvest, and I've got over 30kg of concentrated (and low added sugar!) plum spread bottled because our trees yielded well. And, eggs come from a neighbour weekly and so does milk. We could have weathered two months of isolation easily with no notice, with that. After two weeks, we might have had to get a bit more creative, e.g. order more milk so I could make feta as our base cheese, if we couldn't have gone to the shops.


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## ACinATX

So far over here it seems to be bringing out the best in people. Someone on my street emailed everyone else (we have a list-serv) volunteering to run errands for anyone who needed it. The food bank of one of the local mosques sent out an email saying they will bring people food from their food bank if you need it and can't come in or are afraid to. I'm sure others are doing the same or will soon. It's nice that so many people are thinking of others right now.


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## Horsef

Well, it appears our state of emergency has shut down all sports facilities (amongst a lot of other things) as of tonight. I wonder if that means no riding in the foreseeable future... I somehow assumed I would be riding through this. Silly.


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## SilverMaple

SueC said:


> What - even permanent and fixed-term workers, like ER doctors, have no paid sick leave in the US??? mg:
> 
> But even if you don't have paid sick leave, surely you can take unpaid sick leave with a doctor's certificate? I understand this becomes difficult for low-income workers, but an ER doctor???


She has paid sick leave. But other doctors are also sick; if she doesn't work, nobody is treated in the ER during her shift. Plus like most of those lucky enough to have sick leave, she only has a limited number of days even as a senior physician-- and those must be saved for true emergencies or they aren't there if you need them. Hospitals do not think a cough and low-grade fever are true emergencies at this point when you have people coming into the ER with drug overdoses, gunshot wounds, car accidents, and heart attacks not to mention other issues. And even in hospitals with tests available, there are no tests available for those not critically sick. Only people with diagnosed pneumonia are being tested right now, which she does not have.

As of last week, our local clinic had to call in anyone they suspected of having it, and then get permission to order a test. None were granted to anyone who hadn't traveled internationally within the last 14 days. So basically, nobody has been tested. Our testing numbers in the US are those who A.) were critical with double pneumonia of atypical cause and/or B.) recently traveled internationally and/or lived with someone who had.

The reason for the rapid and escalating shutdown is because this virus has been spreading for weeks and with no or very limited testing, we don't know the actual numbers, areas, etc.


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## Spanish Rider

> Message from our own principal to say schools on & spouting about it being safe unless you're close contact with an infected over 15 minutes or in a room with said for over 2 hrs...


And, how does the principal propose to identify infected people?


@loosie , I believe, asked for loud and clear facts. Based on current experience and zero clinical studies (clinicians are busy saving lives, not writing about it), here we go:


*Testing: * At this point, testing is old news in Europe. In 5-10 days time, in many areas (I have only been monitoring Massachusetts), testing will become SUPERFLUOUS and OBSOLETE. Those with suspected symptoms will be told to self-quarantine. Those with fever will be prescribed paracetamol/Tylenol, fluids and lots of TV/a good book. You will be told NOT TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL *unless* you have dyspnea/chest pain. 

In 5-10 days time, testing will only be used for patients with pneumonia in order to identify the pathogen and treat accordingly. *Forget about the testing. Only the most serious cases need it, and hospitals need the kits*.


*Confinement:* Everyone needs to be prepared to confine for several weeks, if not months. In 5-10 days time, only essential workers will be allowed on the streets. Offices will be closed, banks will be closed, workers will be sent home. You Will still be able to go to the supermarket and pharmacy. In certain cities, you might be lucky enough to be able to walk your dog. *Stop worrying* about your rent, your mortgage, your car payment. If you are healthy, your family is healthy, your animals are healthy and you have enough food to feed them all, DING, DING, DING, you're a pandemic winner!!!


*Children, teens and youth* are asymptomatic carriers.


*Dry cough is a fallacy.* There are many patients with sputum/wet cough.


*The death rate* among those over the age of 60 is 6%. (Oxford study)


*Infected healthcare professionals* are a given. If they are young, they will not know they are infected. The older ones, with the constant exposure to high viral loads, exhaustion and any morbidities, will have increased risk of death.


*Mean viral shedding* in survivors is 20 days, so the 15-day quarantine is not long enough. (Wuhan study in The Lancet published on the 11th)


*Hypertension and systemic corticosteroid use* are associated with death. (same study as above)


*Incubation before presentation of symptoms* can be up to 27 days.


*Fever may not appear until days 2-8*



I honestly wish I could live-stream what is happening here for all of you. I don't understand why there is still doubt in your minds. I am trying to inform you, not scare you, but why the doubt? Is it because you haven't seen it on your TV, so it can't be true? Is it because your favorite politician, TV show host, radio announcer or Oprah haven't told you, so it can't be true? Or is it because you only speak one language and you cannot read the European press or watch foreign news? 

*If you think that the US healthcare system* (which, in and of itself, its a fallacy because there is no 'system' - just a grouping of for-profit hospitals and institutions with no hierarchy or combined administration of protocols, data registration or resource distribution in place to confront a pandemic) *is better prepared, you are sadly mistaken.* And, do not be misguided by my nickname. I am as American as they come. This is not gratuitous criticism of our great country; simply constructive criticism of its inexistent healthcare system and capacity to face a pandemic.


_UNDERSTAND THIS:_

1) As a parent, I am afraid I will not be able to provide for my family. 

2) As a parent, I am afraid to touch my own child and serve him his lunch because I may have the virus.

3) As a wife, I miss sharing the same bed as my husband or even touching his hand because we are both afraid to get the virus at the same time and not be able to care for our son.

4) I am exhausted, trying to get the word out, here and on FB, while seeing foreign governments be slow to react all because of friggin' politics.

5) I wish you all the best, but I think I am done here. I need to write less, sleep more to keep my immune system up and spend all the time I can with my family from the four corners of our living room.


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## SilverMaple

Thank you, Spanish Rider. I wish you and your family the best.


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## LoriF

SueC said:


> I don't geddit - COVID-19 or not, don't you guys have sick leave? Noone with a debilitating virus should go to work - both for their own sake and the sake of others.


The company that I work for, some employees have paid sick days and some don't. It depends on what craft you are in and what labor contracts you are working under. I myself do not have paid sick leave but I still have a few vacation weeks to burn if need be and I don't want to lose out on the paycheck. Otherwise I just take off if I'm sick and take the hit on payday.


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## loosie

Foxhunter said:


> The latest suggestion here is that anyone 70+ self isolates for three months. Yeah, can see that happening!


Is that England? And that suggestion came from?? Someone else from ?? said 1 month for over 70's... media is still all over the shop. I just had my first trip to a shopping complex(rather than usual little local affair) this morn & it's... fully sick mate! & talking to people, seems there is a very wide range of what they believe is happening/they should do - from total blase to... wild eyed. And the shops... even out of conditioner, air freshener, pads & tampons... WTH are people going to do with the excess of those??! Forget any major foods or cleaning products! Bit worried about Mum, who is one of the blase. Who is also hosting family from England, who came in last night, saying 'phew, if we'd come this morn, we would have had to self quarrantine'. They're not testing people coming in either...


----------



## SwissMiss

I stumbled over this today: 









I think this sums it up pretty well in a neat little package.


----------



## loosie

SueC said:


> we grow most of our own F&V, the garden is in peak production right now,


Oh I wish! We've had a really strange season & my garden should be going off now too, but... even the zucchinis were rubbish & now finished. Small amount of tomatoes, capsicum, beans, NO fruits, aside from a few rockmelons & one watermelon. That's over about 1/4 acre of well tended veggie patch, plus the orchard & berry bushes. Even feral blackberries & apple trees along the roads have had zilch. My bees are going well though, as everything flowered, just didn't produce for some reason... & the neighbours we usually get a killer for the freezer from have sold up.


----------



## loosie

Spanish Rider said:


> @loosie , I believe, asked for loud and clear facts. Based on current experience and zero clinical studies (clinicians are busy saving lives, not writing about it), here we go:


THANK YOU SR!! For my part, no I don't speak another language, and as for media & government noises over here, it is SO... confused. If it weren't for this here thread & a few knowledgeable people around me...

*I thought I'd create a thread, for less(not none) discussion but for people to state preferably(keeping in mind your reminder about zero clinical studies & testing) VERIFIED(& HOW it's verified, not just media noises, not anecdotes...) FACTS* as they know them, and the current state of things & policies of where they're from in the world. As you've said Spanish, you are done with talking about it for now, so do I have your permission to copy & paste this to the new thread please? And to others (SM that study link for eg?)



> 4) I am exhausted, trying to get the word out, here and on FB, while seeing foreign governments be slow to react all because of friggin' politics.
> 
> 5) I wish you all the best, but I think I am done here. I need to write less, sleep more to keep my immune system up and spend all the time I can with my family from the four corners of our living room.


Absolutely understand & thank you again! And you must indeed do what you need to to look after yourself. But we SO need people like you, in the know, to get these words out LOUD & CLEAR, esp to people where 'friggin politics' is making it so tardy... So as I've seen here, there are a fair few of you who are truly 'in the know' I will go start that thread so we can continue to *objectively* inform people.


----------



## tinyliny

SueC said:


> What - even permanent and fixed-term workers, like ER doctors, have no paid sick leave in the US??? mg:
> 
> But even if you don't have paid sick leave, surely you can take unpaid sick leave with a doctor's certificate? I understand this becomes difficult for low-income workers, but an ER doctor???





of course they do. We are backward, but not 100% so.


most paid 'career' type jobs have paid sick leave. But, a lot of hourly persons do not have it. Or, they have not 'earned' it yet. One accrues it little by little, and new hires won't have it yet.


----------



## gottatrot

I found a couple of studies that have some positive news.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/12/health/person-to-person-coronavirus-illinois-study/index.html

https://www.infectioncontroltoday.com/personal-protective-equipment/study-infection-preventionists-risk-getting-covid-19-might-not-be-great-feared

Some other positive news is that we have had no cases of coronavirus in our area, but the flu cases have gone down since people are washing their hands and being careful. I would imagine this trend is probably happening in many places. This is good since we had some flu patients that were more sick this year than in some previous years. 

Health care workers have been told they are "too positive" about the pandemic. First of all, we are prepared to deal with ebola, TB (the deadliest infectious disease in the world), meningitis, HIV and other diseases. Several of those are actually airborne diseases rather than spread by droplets. Many of us have also been around when people were very frightened of things like HIV, and I remember when nurses would want HIV patients marked somehow so we could visualize them as "scary," with a sign on their door or by having them wear a pink gown. There are so many diseases out there that we see regularly that are far more frightening than the coronavirus. People who are not used to the mindset of dealing with dangerous diseases are understandably more frightened.

We also see people die from the common cold, minor slips and falls, and things like small children drowning. Safety in this world is not possible, and is mainly perceived. The virus has spread worldwide, and while it is good to prevent it from hitting everywhere at once, that doesn't mean it is super scary, more scary than cancer or having a minor infection suddenly turn into flesh eating bacteria. Chances are most of us will get coronavirus at some point, just like most of us have had the flu. People die from the flu and from coronavirus. Still, we will all have a good chance of getting either one.


----------



## SueC

loosie said:


> Oh I wish! We've had a really strange season & my garden should be going off now too, but... even the zucchinis were rubbish & now finished. Small amount of tomatoes, capsicum, beans, NO fruits, aside from a few rockmelons & one watermelon. That's over about 1/4 acre of well tended veggie patch, plus the orchard & berry bushes. Even feral blackberries & apple trees along the roads have had zilch. My bees are going well though, as everything flowered, just didn't produce for some reason... & the neighbours we usually get a killer for the freezer from have sold up.


I'm sorry to hear you had bad luck with the F&V this year. I wonder what was the matter with your trees?

Yeah, this was a difficult season for us too, our second year in drought - in 2019 we only had 400mm of rain instead of the usual 800mm. Last summer, for the first time since we started beekeeping in 2010, there was no honey at all for us to take; this summer there's been about half of what they normally make. Pasture stocking rates are way down. If it wasn't for the fact that our garden is on bore water, we'd not be producing anything much at all in the way of F&V...

As you can glean from my current "status" blurb, it's been an atrocious year for zucchini over here as well - I got a grand total of four zucchini fruit so far, from two surviving plants that decided to start producing last month, after over 30 plants (I tried again and again) didn't make it this year. Cucurbits in general were bad - cucumber and pumpkin yields low - and that's despite of the fact that they usually do really well here. But, we had late frosts, then unseasonably cold summer nights, alternating with heatwaves and high winds. This meant tomatoes and beans also yielded far less than usual - but I'd overplanted there, which partly compensated for it and means I have loads in the freezer now.

One single volunteer pumpkin from the compost heap (the single one I didn't tear up) turned into a triffid and made 20 pumpkins for us, while all the seed packet ones I planted were measly (even those planted into compost heaps).

Beetroot has been good, onions of all kinds did well, celery and fennel going great guns, ditto kale and silverbeet, mountain corn, mint, parsley and basil. Apples and pears are currently yielding like crazy. Plums were amazing, nectarines and cherries fair, berries disappointing (usually so reliable). The young apricot was ready to yield for the first time this year, but a late frost ripped through just as it was setting little fruits in spring, and killed them all (oh well, next year, the tree itself is OK). The peach got sick and had inedible fruit; I will have to move it in winter because its position is too wet these days. All four olives are fruiting heavily and under nets at the moment - last year, we made our own pickled olives for the first time and this year we'll have to make about four times as much!

Finally got some eggplant and capsicum bushes to grow properly after starting them in the greenhouse very early, but the summer nights have been too cool for them, so I have a total of one fist-sized eggplant so far off those (but it's a very nice eggplant!). Our climate here is marginal for those, as it is for citrus and avocados, but we have some of those as well and the lemon tree at least has decided to get huge and yield well (it was number four; the first three all died and this one is now taller than me and very luxuriant).

Asking around other gardeners in the district, cucurbits were bad for anyone a little inland from the coast, and beans and tomatoes not very good either...

We've had better seasons, but actually have more produce this year than usual because I planted so much more... speaking of, if I don't start my brassica seeds today, they probably won't head properly before spring comes around again... and I'm going to plant out some peas I raised in the greenhouse and see how they go... (late last year, the peas all died before yielding properly).

Good luck to you and to any other gardeners out there for the upcoming months!


----------



## loosie

This c/o a friend on FB... Shows why people who aren't 'at high risk' should be still practicing 'social distancing' - @Fuddyduddy we can only hope to slow it down enough that fewer people die, and the hospitals etc aren't inundated & have to turn away many...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...N22BUNQ3PEg-zgLKmQ4fXnqFQ9Jw056M9EAfWBjiC9lwU


----------



## tinyliny

I understand that death awaits us all. I just don't want to be the one that brought it, uninvited, to my elderly parents.


But, if they should pass to this, then so bet it. . . . 



Life goes on. . . . doesn't it?


----------



## loosie

Can anyone tell me if there's any rational reason why it's the call of the day over here that gatherings in excess of 500 are what's vetoed?? Why 500??


----------



## tinyliny

I don't understand your post, @loosie


----------



## loosie

Our gov't has now said that gatherings over 500 are to be cancelled. 

I'm wondering about that number & whether there's any more logic to it than, say, the comment about up close for over 15 minutes or in a room for 2 hours... Or that schools shouldn't be closed because kids aren't at high risk...


----------



## SueC

It's rather arbitrary, @loosie, just like the current energy star rating system for houses (don't get me started)... if you're looking for decent science there (which would be a reasonable expectation) I don't think you're going to get it...

Something else though: I was pleased yesterday to find this email regarding COVID-19 in my inbox, from the people power organisation GetUp, which I support because I don't like the corporate takeover of our Australian democracy and way of life, and I don't like billionaires stashing their cash in offshore tax havens and paying zero tax in our country while ordinary working people like us are paying our fair share, or the Murdoch press printing unmitigated rubbish, etc etc :evil:

I liked the line they took on COVID-19 and the useful links provided, so I'll reproduce the email below:



> _Through the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, our movement of over a million people needs to respond with love and compassion for everyone in our community. Whether it's checking on your neighbours, standing up to racism and stigma or proactively taking measures to reduce the spread - we all have a role to play. Can you stand with me, help protect our communities, fight misinformation and encourage care? Keep reading to find out how._
> 
> ----
> 
> Sue,
> 
> This is one of the biggest challenges we've faced.
> 
> As coronavirus continues to spread across Australia, I know that the coming days and weeks will be tough and full of uncertainty for so many of us.
> 
> For older Australians and people with underlying health conditions, for whom this virus is very serious.1
> 
> For casual, gig economy, and contract workers who are still being pushed to choose between putting their colleagues at risk and putting food on the table.
> 
> For those on income support struggling to get everyday items from supermarkets as panic buying worsens.2
> 
> For the Chinese and Asian communities who are facing growing racism and xenophobia, being harrassed in the streets, online and even at work.3
> 
> *It's clear that in times like this, we need to respond as a community, care for each other and do what we can to help.* From calling neighbours who might need the company, to proactively practicing social distancing to minimise the spread.
> 
> *As a million-strong people-powered movement, what we do now matters. For those of us that can afford to take extra precautions, let's do a bit more.* Together, we can protect our communities, fight misinformation and instead encourage care for our neighbours.
> 
> Head here to get the latest health information and updates, and share with your family and friends:
> https://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/...ntent=28683&utm_medium=email&utm_source=blast
> 
> Right now, everyday heroes, helpers and public institutions are stepping up. From our dedicated healthcare workers on the frontline, to vital updates and coverage from the ABC and CSIRO scientists working to help develop a vaccine.4
> 
> These coming weeks and months are about those of us who can, doing a little more. It's about:
> 
> *Responding as a community*
> Whether it's calling out racism towards the Chinese community, or taking extra precautions to keep yourself and family away from events and crowds to stop the spread. This is a time for solidarity.
> 
> *Caring for ourselves and each other*
> Through this time, we need to support each other. Calling elderly neighbours, making sure people who are self-isolating have supplies and (digital) company, doing what we can to minimise the spread and minimise the risk for those most vulnerable.
> 
> *Calling out misinformation*
> The tabloids and social media continue to spread misinformation and fear. Together, we need to call this out, and make sure it's the sensible advice from medical experts that dominate.
> 
> 
> We know that coronavirus has already had a huge impact on the economy, but the government's stimulus package doesn't go far enough in boosting the social safety net for the people who need it most. We'll be working on this now and in the lead up to the May budget to make sure the budget responses to this crisis are focused on those that need it most.
> 
> Whatever comes next, we're all in this together. Now is the time for solidarity. Now is the time to come together with love and compassion.
> 
> Onwards,
> 
> Paul for the GetUp team
> 
> P.S As coronavirus continues to unfold, we want to hear from you Sue about how the GetUp community can be supporting each other, and what we can be doing to help. Can you take this short, 2 minute survey and let us know what you think?
> 
> P.P.S I keep thinking about the words of World Health Organisation chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, "We're in this together, to do the right things with calm and protect the citizens of the world. It's doable."
> 
> References:
> [1] Q&A on coronaviruses (COVID-19), World Health Organisation, 9 March 2020.
> [2] 'Selfish' stockpiling of cheap food staples is hurting low-income earners, The New Daily, 6 March 2020.
> [3] As coronavirus fears spread, Chinese restaurants are reporting an 80pc drop in business, ABC, 13 February 2020.
> [4] Working against the new coronavirus, CSIRO, 13 March 2020.


----------



## loosie

A warning from the Italian people...

Quarantined Italians Send a Message to Themselves 10 Days Ago: What They Wish They Knew Then | Open Culture


----------



## Spanish Rider

@loosie , copy and paste away. Perhaps it would also be interesting to post previous meesages here, too, to show progression. Can't remember everything Ivwrote now.


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## loosie

^Thanks for sharing Sue. I'm also a GetUp supporter - they have done some great work to date - but didn't get an email like that - perhaps it is in my spam box... But every time I hear about them, I get Bob stuck in my head... Get up, stand up...


----------



## loosie

Thanks Spanish. Keep well.


----------



## loosie

And as we're not allowed to paste FB links here, I'll just have to tell you all to *look up the public address of the Prime Minister of Singapore.* One line from him went something along the lines of... 'WHO identified one main factor in it's rapid spread - that is many countries just not taking the situation seriously enough'


----------



## SueC

Dr Norman Swan has recorded another update on where Australia is at for the ABC here, and he's calling for a lockdown:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03...commends-proactive-national-lockdown/12057956

He's probably our best public communicator on this, and he's a medical expert, not a politician!


----------



## loosie

^Thanks Sue... again. Can you also post that in the other thread please?


----------



## Horse girl 07

I am glad things are getting shut down- events, schools in the areas have been cancelled two weeks or more. I know this will have an impact on many as not everyone gets to work from there home etc. I bought a horse for my daughter last month although not the greatest time -she sure will help us get through this wild time. The shelves in the stores are empty. It is all very surreal how life can change so fast. Prayers for all and this to shall pass!


----------



## SueC

loosie said:


> ^Thanks Sue... again. Can you also post that in the other thread please?


I don't have the time to take on another thread, or I won't get through my to-do list! But feel free to copy and paste!


----------



## Spanish Rider

Information is power, but keeping it simple:

*Day 8 since the first cases in my province, Day 5 of our home lockdown, Day 3 of State of Alarm:
*

Reported cases (only reliable data on those being treated) *jumped by more than 1,000 cases* in Spain yesterday.

Total of 9,191 cases, *40% requiring hospitalization.*

*Death rate is 3%* (again, little or no data on mildest cases self-quarantining or asymptomatic cases).

Government projects an exponential increase of cases over the next 10 days.

State of Alarm will be maintained for *more than 15 days. *


Italy: 24,603 known infected, 1,809 known deaths, 2,335 known cures


----------



## SueC

I am passing on a superb link that was just shared with me, showing how social distancing works to suppress a pandemic, in visual terms. Really superb demonstration! :happydance:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/corona-simulator/


----------



## RegalCharm

Changes to Ohio Unemployment rules/laws that are being implemented.


Governor Mike DeWine
✔
@GovMikeDeWine

We are broadening current state policy to clarify that individuals that are quarantined by a health professional or by their employer are considered to be unemployed and will not be subject to requirements to actively seek work during the period of emergency. #COVID19OhioReady

689
4:05 PM - Mar 15, 2020

Ohio currently has a 1 wk waiting period before an individual can receive unemployment. In order to expedite the payments to impacted Ohioans, we are waiving the waiting week so that workers eligible for unemployment benefits will receive them for the first week of unemployment.

"This also applies to companies that determine that it is necessary to shut down current operations due to the current emergency," said Lt. Gov. Husted. "The Ohio Department of Jobs and Family Servies will waive employer penalties for late reporting and payment for the next quarter to assist employers impacted by the lack of staff availability."

More information on the changes can be found by calling 877-644-6562 or online by clicking here. 


Also all bars and restaurants are ordered to close indefinitely. Carry out and delivery will still be allowed.

And right now The Mountain State (West Virginia) is the only state with no reported cases of Covid-19.


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## Foxhunter

Well i went to the store, empty shelves galore! 

No pasta of any kind, no rice, baked beans, no brown bread, butter was very low, little kitchen towels, no loo papaer. There were restrictions on the amount of certain products people could purchase. 

Oh, there were very few bananas, most fruit was low but plenty of veg. 
Not many people in there. 

Wash your hands with soap and then use sanitiser - none of that either. 

Friend, who came with me and is a nurse, is having to swat up on certain things as she expects to be taken off her present job and going back onto the ward. 

We were saying about hand washing, to out and buy say a pizza, wash hands, undo the box which others have touched, wash hands, remove pizza from wrapping, wash hands, place pizza in oven then remove when cooked. Do this with every product and there are going to be cases of dermatitis! 

The over 70s are now being told 4 months self isolation. It will not work as it is impossible to imprison people in their own homes. I have animals to care for. If I didn't walk the dogs they would be climbing the walls along with me! 

One older couple called the radio station, they both have compromised health issues, to say that they had called the store for delivery and were told it would be five weeks as they were so over loaded with bookings. 

What to do? I have plenty and could probably live out of cupboard and freezer for several months, I would need bread and milk that's about all.

Just come on the radio, the people in the U.K. That have died from this virus all had compromised health issues. The youngest being 53.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Positive news from Madrid:

The Medical College is looking for volunteers from other provinces to help in Madrid. 550 medical professionals (family doctors, recent retirees, etc.) will start tomorrow.

Madrid social services has called for volunteers, and nearly 8,000 people have volunteered to help seniors and other vulnerable collectives. Sounds like a huge undertaking, but people want to help.


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## tinyliny

Washington state, USA, is experiencing fewer new cases. The social distancing policies put into effect almost immediately by our governor have had a very positive effect. We are no longer the epicenter for cases in the US. 

The economic impact will have to be dealt with later.


----------



## LoriF

Someone who I know that lives on the west coast is now the proud owner of 48 rolls of toilet paper and 10 bottles of rubbing alcohol and he lives by himself. When I asked him why, he really didn't know. "Everyone else is doing it, so there must be something to it". Sigh He did say that he would give some to people who can't find any and have a need.


----------



## boots

LoriF said:


> Someone who I know that lives on the west coast is now the proud owner of 48 rolls of toilet paper and 10 bottles of rubbing alcohol and he lives by himself. When I asked him why, he really didn't know. "Everyone else is doing it, so there must be something to it". Sigh He did say that he would give some to people who can't find any and have a need.


That's sad.


----------



## ACinATX

I think a lot of shelters would take stuff like that. If he needs some place to take it. Having said that, eventually he would probably work through it all himself. In the meantime, he could build a fort with it!


----------



## gjb

Just seen published that here in the State of Ohio there are only 1,200 to 1,500 tests available.

Yesterday went to Walmart to get a bag of potatoes, shelves were bare of all potatoes, onions, and most vegetables. Of course with toilet paper, Kleenex and most of the other necessities.
Today went to our Aldi's plenty of fruits and vegetables. Meats were wiped out.

Also figured I better pick up another bag of Timothy grass pellets for the horses and a bag of cat food before that will be hard to find.

Order my meds for the horse to make sure the pony had his Prascend. Never know if shortages will arise or problems with shipping.

Hope you all stay well!


----------



## farmpony84

I have about 30 rolls. I had bought a 48 pack when I went shopping 2 weeks ago. Had I known people were going to lose their minds I'd have bought the 72 pack.

I haven't been able to find bootie paper or fresh meat. It's insane.

I had to work today and there was a girl on the second floor coughing and hacking and online trying to get antibiotics. I'm glad I'm on the third floor.....


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

Wife and I went to several stores today. No TP. 
A Walmart clerk said they sold completely out early this morning when they got in a shipment.
"The noble-minded are calm and steady. Little people are forever fussing and fretting." ----- Confucius
So we got paper towels instead. I told the check out lady I have a band saw.
"The things you worry about the most never come true." ------ Dad (rip)
It occurred to me I've lived through so many crises. When I started investing the DJIA was in the 900s. Then on Black Monday I lost $1/2M. $500K in one day.
America has gone through so many wars, hurricanes, fires, tornados, etc., but we're still here. We're strong and resolute.
“Gam ze ya’avor." ------- King Solomon, Hebrew for "This to shall pass".
The stock market is way down...but people are buying supplies faster than shelves can restocked. What an opportunity for a long term investor, especially the young to buy! Especially mutual funds. The key is knowing when...hopefully soon.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## gunslinger

I don't understand why people don't stock up on the things they know they're going to use.While I only have about 16 rolls, I wouldn't think that 48 rolls would be a lot.
My wife and I shop about twice a month. We normally buy in bulk, the stuff we know we're going to use, which is why we're not hurting for much now.
For example, when I run low on shampoo, I'll buy 3 bottles....same with deodorant, etc....
Now, I understand 48 rolls seems like a lot when you don't have any yourself....


----------



## tinyliny

If you can lose a half million in one day drop in the stock market, that means you still got plenty of mullah to tide you over.


It's the people who live paycheck to paycheck who will suffer. We can wait , . . . .they cannot.


----------



## farmpony84

gunslinger said:


> I don't understand why people don't stock up on the things they know they're going to use.While I only have about 16 rolls, I* wouldn't think that 48 rolls would be a lot.*
> My wife and I shop about twice a month. We normally buy in bulk, the stuff we know we're going to use, which is why we're not hurting for much now.
> For example, when I run low on shampoo, I'll buy 3 bottles....same with deodorant, etc....
> Now, I understand 48 rolls seems like a lot when you don't have any yourself....


I didn't know the Toilet Paper Fairy was going to die!!!!


----------



## LoriF

Oh I have mine lol, but it's what I normally have. Guess I just got lucky when I trotted down to DG to pick up a couple of cleaning supplies for the house and a pack of TP. I have 12 rolls and that will last me 8 months. I'm not a huge TP user. Now, if my nieces were still here with me. I swear, they used to eat the stuff.

On another note. I went to work this weekend and took a run up to South Carolina. The train was packed but everyone pretty much kept to themselves and had terrified looks on their faces. It was weird to me. Me, I kept to myself too. As much as I could and still do my job. Washed my hands about fifty thousand times and kept them out of my face. 

No know cases in my county as of yet.


----------



## Acadianartist

Thank you @Spanish Rider, for your generosity at keeping us informed. 

It is partly because of you and others like you that:

- I convinced my elderly parents to cancel their trip to Florida.
- I did not let my son go on a sleepover with his friends Sunday night.
- I did not let my daughter go to her riding lesson on Sunday afternoon.
- I cancelled all my chiropractic appointments for the foreseeable future.

My kids and husband thought I was over-reacting. Now they realize I had the right idea all along. 

Just so you know, what you wrote in here DID have an impact.


----------



## tinyliny

this is Seattle's 'rush hour' now. whoo hoo!


----------



## SueC

LoriF said:


> I have 12 rolls and that will last me 8 months. I'm not a huge TP user.


Please tell me your secret. Do you eat your food dehydrated, so that you only have to dust yourself off? ;-)

I use a roll a week... under normal circumstances... and that's trying to use as little as possible to do the job... :Angel:

PS to males reading, we have a lot more surface area to mop up after a number one than you lot, who can get away with a shake-dry. And we have to go more often because our internal plumbing is different.

(And particularly me because I drink lots of fluids all day...)


----------



## waresbear

They are limiting toilet paper purchases here. It's ridiculous, the same people come in every morning wait in line and get their one assigned pack. Aren't you supposed to stay home and limit contact public contact? I guess hoarding toilet paper is more important.


----------



## Spanish Rider

@Acadianartist , thank you for your message. I would really rather be wrong, and I truly hope that measures are being adopted in other countries in time.

I just saw a tv interview of an ER Dr. in Granada. The man was crying from exhaustion and desperation, asking why politicians did not act faster while watching what was happening in Italy.

Our cousins in Italy from the original northern quarantine area are doing well. They have run out of soap and detergent. They are now using baking soda, which has a pH that the virus can't stand.


----------



## ACinATX

@tinyliny as someone who is familiar with Seattle traffic -- Wow. Just wow.


----------



## pheobe111

is it just me or does everything feel very pre apocalyptic


----------



## SueC

pheobe111 said:


> is it just me or does everything feel very pre apocalyptic


Just wait till we get a really nasty epidemic with an 80% mortality rate... for which this is a good wake-up call for the public to hone their skills and for the woeful systems to get less woeful...


----------



## LoriF

SueC said:


> Please tell me your secret. Do you eat your food dehydrated, so that you only have to dust yourself off? ;-)
> 
> I use a roll a week... under normal circumstances... and that's trying to use as little as possible to do the job... :Angel:
> 
> PS to males reading, we have a lot more surface area to mop up after a number one than you lot, who can get away with a shake-dry. And we have to go more often because our internal plumbing is different.
> 
> (And particularly me because I drink lots of fluids all day...)


lol That's hysterical ) Actually, if I were home more often then I might use more of my own. As it stands, I use TP at work more. But still, I don't need five miles of it for one sitting like my nieces used to do. Kind of amazing how they chilled out on it when they started buying their own. :smile:


----------



## tinyliny

Who is still going in to work?


----------



## LoriF

SueC said:


> Just wait till we get a really nasty epidemic with an 80% mortality rate... for which this is a good wake-up call for the public to hone their skills and for the woeful systems to get less woeful...


The Ebola virus had a 50% mortality rate. But, unlike this virus we are dealing with now, people were not walking around asymptomatic spreading it around. There were far less people who actually contracted this virus. It was also spread in a different way. 

It seems that with COVID 19, there are quite a few young folks that are contracting it but not even really getting that sick from it if at all but heavily shedding the virus. That is what I am reading anyway.

I went to the supermarket after feeding the horses and they were closed. Normally they stay open until ten but closed at nine because of what is going on. Don't really know what closing an hour early would do but oh well. I guess the sick people come out after nine. Now my craving for an artichoke will have to wait for tomorrow.


----------



## boots

tinyliny said:


> Who is still going in to work?


I work at a people hospital, an equine rehab center, and have cows. And the cows are calving.


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## SueC

LoriF said:


> The Ebola virus had a 50% mortality rate. But, unlike this virus we are dealing with now, people were not walking around asymptomatic spreading it around. There were far less people who actually contracted this virus. It was also spread in a different way.


Yes, this is true, but this is still a relatively mild pathogen compared to the kinds of things microbiologists have been expecting for a while. Which ought to give pause for thought.


----------



## SueC

tinyliny said:


> Who is still going in to work?


My husband is. Works in a medical practice and they had a big meeting yesterday morning about COVID-19. As of now, no staff with any sniffles or sore throat are allowed to turn up to work - doctors included. To do so is considered irresponsible unless people are prepared to work in biohazard suits - they don't want to spread COVID-19. Also, public servants in this state have just been given an extra 14 days COVID-19 leave to use for the same reasons - they don't want anyone coming to work with the sniffles. My husband works at a private practice so that won't be covered by this extra leave, but staff have general sick leave to use, and annual leave as well.

For years, in that practice, anyone coming in with respiratory symptoms was asked to wear a mask and disinfect their hands, to reduce spread. This has reduced illness amongst staff, but not eliminated it. They also wipe down surfaces, doorknobs, taps etc with disinfectant several times a day as standard practice and are now stepping that up a bit more. Brett disinfects his hands before handling his personal items, like his lunch bag and briefcase, and then again before leaving for the day. Doors are opened with elbows.

Me, I work from home as I usually do. I'm going to town less; husband will more often bring supplies from town to reduce my having to go out.


----------



## AnitaAnne

tinyliny said:


> Who is still going in to work?


I'm working overtime. Hospital stays full. Still having elective surgeries, but not sure how long that will last...

I think the idea of the community at large self limiting contact by participating in social isolation, to minimize community spread of the virus and concurrently reduce the demand on medical resources, is not well understood or followed. 

People are not changing their lifestyle at all. Some of the most vocal protesters are medical staff. The familiarity breeds contempt concept maybe...or just another contagion to put under isolation, no need to adjust their personal life. 


Maybe they are invincible...:frown_color:


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## Aprilswissmiss

tinyliny said:


> Who is still going in to work?


:wave:

I work at a veterinary hospital. We're still open, because after all, animals don't stop getting sick/injured just because the rest of the world is on pause! Hours have not been changed either.

My boss has made it very clear that anyone with any hint of illness is to stay home and take PTO, and "if you don't have PTO left, I will find a way to get you PTO." We have cancelled all non-essential surgeries to reduce foot traffic and conserve medical/cleaning supplies that are currently in high demand. We have encouraged owners to postpone non-essential appointments.

Anyone who is not a worker is not allowed to enter the building. We are taking appointments in the parking lot. Owner stays in car, dog gets examined in the lot. Cats come inside with owner waiting in car. Anything that requires special equipment gets brought inside with owner waiting in car. Somehow, this "curbside vet care" has actually worked quite well to confuse normally-aggressive dogs into cooperating, especially for vaccines. "What do you mean, we're staying outside? I don't get it. Did you just poke me? Oh cool, I'm going home!"


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## JCnGrace

I'm sitting here in stunned wonder at how little TP some of you get by with. We go through a roll a day. That's for 2 of us that are home all day. You make me feel like a TP hoarder because I have 2 32 packs, 1 36 pack and a few loose rolls from an already opened pack in the supply closet and I had that before the virus even made it's appearance. LOL In my defense I only make about 3 trips to Sam's Club a year which is when I stock up on it and last trip was in January so recent. 

I don't like to shop so when I do I do it big in everything, not just TP. Hubby is usually the one who makes the more frequent runs to town for bread, milk & other fresh stuff. The + side to this is I'm not a bit worried about running out of anything (other than things like milk and fresh produce) even if the shelves stay empty for a while and the - side to this is family and friends know how I am so they all say they're moving in with me if they can't get supplies.


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## ApuetsoT

I got an email Sunday night that I was to start working from home. We saw it coming so brought all my gear home with me Friday. 



My cat is so happy. He gets to hang out on the patio all day now.




edit: For what it's worth, it takes me 5-6 months to go through a 12 pack of toilet paper. I did not need to stock up. lol


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## tinyliny

tinyliny said:


> this is Seattle's 'rush hour' now. whoo hoo!



Please excuse this. I did not realize by cuting and pasting the photo that i had a hot/active link, and that it would continue to update, . . .just like the website. So, It now shows real time traffic, rather than 'rush hour' only.


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## SueC

Aprilswissmiss said:


> Anyone who is not a worker is not allowed to enter the building. We are taking appointments in the parking lot. Owner stays in car, dog gets examined in the lot. Cats come inside with owner waiting in car. Anything that requires special equipment gets brought inside with owner waiting in car. Somehow, this "curbside vet care" has actually worked quite well to confuse normally-aggressive dogs into cooperating, especially for vaccines. "What do you mean, we're staying outside? I don't get it. Did you just poke me? Oh cool, I'm going home!"


That's such an excellent idea! :clap: You can tell veterinarians study microbiology! 


...and would the female people here who use very small amounts of toilet paper please give the rest of us hints on how to achieve such staggering efficiency and eco-friendliness? :Angel:


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## loosie

gunslinger said:


> I don't understand why people don't stock up on the things they know they're going to use.While I only have about 16 rolls, I wouldn't think that 48 rolls would be a lot.


Um... because people can't do simple maths these days & people don't know how to cook any more so have no idea how much flour etc they will need??


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## loosie

To the people who(like me) missed out on hand sanitiser, metho! Granted your hands won't taste nice, if you do then stick fingers in your mouth(another deterrent) but I bought some little squirty bottles & filled them with methylated spirits for us all to keep in pockets & spray hands with regularly when we can't wash.


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## Horsef

We are days away from a full lock down. We only have 55 cases and no deaths but our government is taking it super seriously. They will most probably put people over 65 on lock down starting today. Already yesterday the police were stopping elderly and returning them home. This actually might be a great idea, keep the economy running but isolate the most vulnerable. I am not sure of the legality of it but nobody is mentioning that at all.

@SpanishRider Anyhow, how is Spain handling movement of people who need to go feed horses/livestock every day? Are they allowed to move? We are very worried about horses because only a few yards have people living at the location.

Our racetrack has a few hundred horses in small yards surrounding it and there only two people living in close proximity. At least a hundred people keep their horses there and have to get to them every day.

Since I live in a non-horsey country, the authorities aren’t even thinking about that issue (understandably). When we phoned the relevant authorities, they were completely surprised by our problem, they forgot about us.


----------



## loosie

Acadianartist said:


> Thank you @Spanish Rider, for your generosity at keeping us informed.
> 
> It is partly because of you and others like you that:
> 
> - I convinced my elderly parents to cancel their trip to Florida.
> - I did not let my son go on a sleepover with his friends Sunday night.
> - I did not let my daughter go to her riding lesson on Sunday afternoon.
> - I cancelled all my chiropractic appointments for the foreseeable future.
> 
> My kids and husband thought I was over-reacting. Now they realize I had the right idea all along.
> 
> Just so you know, what you wrote in here DID have an impact.


Yes. And my kids are really grumpy with me, pleading with me to let them go... to school! Go figure. Dunno how they're my kids... My father(who needs a pacemaker) is not taking it seriously. I've managed to get thru to my mother though I think... tho she is hosting family from England who aren't taking it seriously & said 'phew, we would have had to self quarrantine if we'd arrived a few hours later!


----------



## loosie

tinyliny said:


> Who is still going in to work?


My husband is, despite working in the city on a job with around 800. Despite being an asthmatic, possible asbestosis and being on cortico-steroids... :-(


----------



## loosie

To all those people panic buying up all the soap, sanitiser, rubbing alcohol... you do realise that to manage this you need other people to wash their hands too??!


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## Spanish Rider

I am encouraged to hear from several of your comments that people are taking this seriously. The vet clinic curbside approach deserves a big round of applause.

@Horsef , my barn has a breeding program, so there are three grooms living on-site with their families (7 adults, 3 children).

For now, roads are not closed and no policing is going on. Many people are calling for this in the big cities simply because of population density. But essential workers are still needed to get to supply-chain, healthcare jobs, etc.


*THIS IS NOT THE APOCALYPSE*. This is not ebola, or something unnamed with a high death rate. However, the pressure being put on an unprepared healthcare system is apocalyptic.

Percentage-wise, very few people will die. However, treatment in acute cases, either with or without death, is long, from 1-2-3 weeks. This ties up a lot of staff and requires a heavy amount of resources.

As @SueC has said, hopefully this 'experiment' in national/international readiness will be a wakeup call to develop nat'l/internat'l agencies, systems and protocols. 

If you have not found Bill Gates' TED talk on a pandemic from 2015, here ya go. The suggestion of an epidemic/pandemic medical response team linked to the military, I think, is a very good one.

https://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates_the_next_outbreak_we_re_not_ready/up-next?language=en


----------



## loosie

Right, gone back to page 32 copy & pasting relevant bits to other thread. 

Mmm, green thai curry for dinner, most stuff fresh from garden(it's doing that well at least) but noooo!! I'm out of coconut cream! What's the bet that hasn't been sold out yet??


----------



## Horsef

I was wandering why the authorities don’t mobilize the vets into human hospitals when there is a staff shortage. But I guess there aren’t enough beds and equipment in any case, more staff isn’t going to help much.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Another factor in the behavior of viruses that we have not discussed here is *viral load*.

The viral load is the amount of virus a patient has been exposed to, ranging anywhere from picking up a small amount of virus from touching a doorknob and then transferring to their face by scratching their nose to a massive load by cohabitating with/caring for infected patients unprotected and over a longer period of time.

We are receiving reports that the role of viral load in C-19 patients is very significant. In addition to ill seniors, they are also now treating younger patients with high viral loads and very acute symptoms, requiring hospitalization and even intubation.


Another datum of interest mentioned in the Chinese _The Lancet_ article from last week are the *sequelae or after-effects* of the virus. Just because acute patients survive does not mean that they will have the same lung function as before. Lung damage from the virus can mean that a higher percetage of survivors than expected will require lung transplantation. Of course, there are no clear data on this in terms of percentages, ages or comorbidities. As I have said before, clinicians are busy saving lives, not writing about it, and we still have no national or international COVID-19 registry.

The ER physician from Granada (Andalusia) also mentioned the lung damage that they were seeing, especially in patients with high viral loads. He compared it to cirrhosis of the liver.


----------



## Spanish Rider

> I was wandering why the authorities don’t mobilize the vets into human hospitals when there is a staff shortage. But I guess there aren’t enough beds and equipment in any case, more staff isn’t going to help much.


 @Horsef , here the latest call for volunteers was extended to medical students, retired physicians and veterinarians.

As for beds, we have seen photos of the military removing beds from hotels that have donated them.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> @Horsef , here the latest call for volunteers was extended to medical students, retired physicians and veterinarians.
> 
> As for beds, we have seen photos of the military removing beds from hotels that have donated them.


That makes sense - it’s not like hotels need them at the moment.

I am glad to hear that veterinarians can be used - my country has lost a lot of doctors and nurses to emigration, but vets are mostly staying put. A lot of the knowledge they have is transferable.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> Another factor in the behavior of viruses that we have not discussed here is *viral load*.
> 
> The viral load is the amount of virus a patient has been exposed to, ranging anywhere from picking up a small amount of virus from touching a doorknob and then transferring to their face by scratching their nose to a massive load by cohabitating with/caring for infected patients unprotected and over a longer period of time.
> 
> We are receiving reports that the role of viral load in C-19 patients is very significant. In addition to ill seniors, they are also now treating younger patients with high viral loads and very acute symptoms, requiring hospitalization and even intubation.
> 
> 
> Another datum of interest mentioned in the Chinese _The Lancet_ article from last week are the *sequelae or after-effects* of the virus. Just because acute patients survive does not mean that they will have the same lung function as before. Lung damage from the virus can mean that a higher percetage of survivors than expected will require lung transplantation. Of course, there are no clear data on this in terms of percentages, ages or comorbidities. As I have said before, clinicians are busy saving lives, not writing about it, and we still have no national or international COVID-19 registry.
> 
> The ER physician from Granada (Andalusia) also mentioned the lung damage that they were seeing, especially in patients with high viral loads. He compared it to cirrhosis of the liver.


Scary thought for medical staff. I am grateful for what they have chosen to do. It really is much more than a BMW and a nice house - and even that isn’t a reality for most of them around the world. Our doctors (Serbia) are paid around 800-1200 Euro and nurses 500-600. Not a glamorous lifestyle at all.


----------



## loosie

Apparently shops have sold out of FREEZERS!! Good thing we stocked up on those a while ago!


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## loosie

Husband says chemist is out of ventolin puffers!!


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

tinyliny said:


> Who is still going in to work?


My husband, and of course, me but I never leave home for work so not sure it counts. He is a provider in an Urgent Care and, of course, they will see patients to the bitter end. The "visit" policy is still very fluid and changing daily, sometimes hourly. Right now, no Non-essential personnel are to be at work and that's system wide. Any patients with cough, cold, flu type symptoms are to call in to the clinic and a provider will go out and assess whether they need to be a) tested and sent home pending results, b) brought in for treatment (for other than CV19), c) sent to ER if critical enough or beyond the scope of the UC setting (MRI, CT, Vent, surgical). No hospital visitors, unless the patient is in extremis. 

Testing wise, they have made some HUGE leaps, setting up drive thru testing stations in parking lots, developing faster, more accurate testing and local labs being certified so their tests, when positive, are no longer "Presumptive Positive" and they can now declare "Positive" without retesting through CDC. That makes results in hours not days or weeks. 

At this point everyone is working unprotected, they have not been able to get the N95 masks they usually wear because they've been sent to China, so when they're out, they're out. I did just hear that they've received waivers from body who governs such requirements (the FDA...I think), that they will now be able to use N95 masks not specifically made for hospital/clinic use because they ARE the same masks and will do the same job, just originally made for construction and such. Hopefully that will alleviate some of the strain. 

They (the system my hubby works for) has not yet cancelled elective/pre-scheduled surgeries but I suspect that's coming before the weekend. I had a conference to go to at the end of the month, it's been cancelled. We're scheduled to go to San Antonio next month for some CE for hubby, I suspect that will be cancelled or held via video conference. Then in June we're scheduled to go to Pinto World Championships, they have not been cancelled YET. Fortunately that's close enough we could drive back and forth. If everything calms down, we're supposed to go to Orlando, FLA for some more CE for hubby and another conference for me. Crossing fingers that this all settles down a bit before then (August), I want to go to Universal's Harry Potter stuff. 

I went to the store last night to pick up some barley (one supermarket carries it in bulk, the other 3, nope never heard of it), fresh veg and some canned soups for hubby's lunches. I was able to buy 3 different kinds of soup, period. Good thing we're not real picky eaters. I was STUNNED by what I saw. If it was pre-prepared, boxed, canned, it was gone. Picture one of the HUGE Walmarts with row upon row of empty shelves. No paper goods or hand sanitizer stuff available at all. There were plenty of fresh veg & fruits, very limited fresh meats. I have never seen one of our Walmarts look so stripped, not even on Bedlam weekend and we're hosting. Stockers were out stocking as fast as they could throw stuff up on the shelves and it disappeared just a quickly. 

I'm worried for our elderly, our local businesses and the economy. It's really grim here and we just got our first confirmed case of CV19 in my county. The whole state is under a State of Emergency, each individual county and city have also issued their proclamations of a State of Emergency and everyone is being very strongly encouraged to stay home and to practice social isolation. No groups of more than 10, restaurants, schools, churches are all shut down for at least the next 3 weeks. Some churches and groups have moved their meetings to on line only.


----------



## walkinthewalk

loosie said:


> Apparently shops have sold out of FREEZERS!! Good thing we stocked up on those a while ago!


People are going nuts.

As of this writing, my U.S. state of Tennessee has 52 confirmed cases. I think one death, but I’m not sure. 

There are zero cases in my rural county or the sort-of-rural county where DH works and we shop.

The rural county beyond that county doesn’t have any cases either BUT DH’s bosses FIL was shopping in this county’s WalMart and came upon a man who had stripped the shelf of toilet paper and had it over-flowing in his buggy. 

The FIL asked the man if he could have ONE lousy pack. The TP hoarder said “—no, it’s mine”. 

The FIL needed toilet paper so reached for a pack anyway. The man showed the FIL a gun and threatened to shoot his hand off if he took one. Thank you Tennessee legislators for passing a law that allows every idiot in the state to carry a gun into a store and brandish it over toilet paper.

My neighbor said she couldn’t find toilet paper either and with a two year old in tow, couldn’t go all over the state looking for any. She said her MIL finally found some, and brought it to them.

We are both in our early 70’s and with a generally strong constitution. However, DH did have a heart attack eight years ago and his prostate cancer surgery is only 15 months old. He still works in a fairly high traffic job, but they have had meetings as to cleanliness protocol. 

I only leave the farm once or twice a week. Even that is subject to change, as it is also hitting allergy season. I’m coughing, sneezing, and my nose is running from tree allergens. I know how that could be interpreted by the panic mongers.

This Trojan horse was long out of the barn before anyone knew they needed to get serious about it. Along with the serious damage this is having in world-wide economy, I am sick to death of the gougers and no account, moral-less people who think they have the right to threaten someone with a gun over a pack of toilet paper.


----------



## Spanish Rider

We have just received in the first abstract for publication (I am a medical journal editor) about COVID-19 in surgical patients. Although virologists, ER physicians and intensivists don't have time to write, I am interested to see what surgeons have to say. I will post only ANONYMOUS and uncompromising data as it is made available to me. 

@Horsef , our medical staff do not make much more here. My ER physician friend, who is in her 50s and has years of experience, makes €2300/month. Nurses around €1200/month.


----------



## Acadianartist

Spanish Rider said:


> We have just received in the first abstract for publication (I am a medical journal editor) about COVID-19 in surgical patients. Although virologists, ER physicians and intensivists don't have time to write, I am interested to see what surgeons have to say. I will post only ANONYMOUS and uncompromising data as it is made available to me.
> 
> 
> @*Horsef* , our medical staff do not make much more here. My ER physician friend, who is in her 50s and has years of experience, makes €2300/month. Nurses around €1200/month.


Thank you @Spanish Rider. Please do share!


----------



## Horsef

loosie said:


> Husband says chemist is out of ventolin puffers!!


That makes sense - people are hoping they would help them in case of pulmonary insufficiency. I doubt it works like that but emergencies and fear make people come up with all sorts of solutions - humans are very resourceful. 

I am asthmatic. I bought extra pumps as soon as this thing started because I guessed people would go after them. I guess I should have bought more than two...


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> We have just received in the first abstract for publication (I am a medical journal editor) about COVID-19 in surgical patients. Although virologists, ER physicians and intensivists don't have time to write, I am interested to see what surgeons have to say. I will post only ANONYMOUS and uncompromising data as it is made available to me.


Yes, please share, it would be very appreciated.


----------



## RegalCharm

Spain becomes 4th most coronavirus-infected nation, seizes all private health care
Spain recorded at least 7,753 cases Monday, marking a 34.7 percent jump from the 5,754 cases recorded Saturday and a 161 percent jump from the 2,965 cases Friday, according to the World Health Organization.


https://www.foxnews.com/world/spain-coronavirus-4th-most-infected-private-healthcare


----------



## Spanish Rider

A word about asthma and inhalers:

Many times asthma symptoms are exacerbated by GERD (acid reflux). Now is the time to consider eating healthier, staying away from the junk food, sugar, etc., and concentrate on gut health. It may improve symptoms and lessen your need for ventolin, giving you a longer supply over time. Also, try eating your last meal several hours before going to bed so that your dinner is digested before lying down, again to avoid the reflux. Green tea and herbal infusions like mint are good for this, too.

COVID-19 deaths have also been associated with the use of systemic corticosteroids, which is logical because these anti-inflammatory agents increase risk of infection of all types. We can only assume that the same would be true with inhaled corticosteroids. Personally, I am continuing use of my low-dose inhaled corticosteroids to keep down everyday inflammation. However, if I develop a fever, I will stop their use and not take the systemic (pills) treatment I usually use.

I AM NOT A PHYSICIAN, so consult with your own doctor. I am just putting this info out there in case you are not able to consult with a physician as this thing moves along.


----------



## LoriF

walkinthewalk said:


> This Trojan horse was long out of the barn before anyone knew they needed to get serious about it. Along with the serious damage this is having in world-wide economy, I am sick to death of the gougers and no account, moral-less people who think they have the right to threaten someone with a gun over a pack of toilet paper.


Well, if this man had been seen doing that with an LEO around to see it he would be sitting in jail right now as what he did is illegal. I would have taken a pic of him and called the cops and filed charges. And then picked up a pack of the TP when the cops were putting handcuffs on him.

@JCnGrace My mom is like you. She has just about everything and quite enough of it. But this is how she is anyway as she has plenty of storage space. Lack of storage space has been the one and only thing that I have always disliked about my home. My home is still (and seems like it will always be) under renovation and hopefully I can create just a little more storage space than what I have now.


----------



## Spanish Rider

> seizes all private health care


Well, that sounds horrible, doesn't it?

Basically, what is happening is that the big public teaching hospitals in the cities are overflowing. So, they are now using the facilities of the small private hospitals (as all elective surgeries have been cancelled) for the run-off. 'Seized' to me sounds like a Venezuelan/Chavist expropriation. Here, the use of the facilities has been offered and accepted as a temporary solution (we hope).

Again, I hope that the word has gotten out in time and that this does not happen where you are, @RegalCharm. 

In the future, it would be interesting to have a discussion of pros/cons of private versus public healthcare. Here in Spain, we have both. They are independent yet compatible, as many doctors choose to work in both private and public institutions.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Unfortunately, the Madrid area is being the hardest hit because it is the capital, with a large population density of 6.5 million, major use of public transportation, etc. It is also a major hub between Europe/Asia and the Americas, with millions of tourists and travellers passing through each year.

Another important factor is the generalized huggy-kissiness of this culture, like in Italy. Growing up in the US, I don't remember being kissed by my parents, but here we kiss family members several times daily and friends whenever we meet. Or, at least, we did. It is not done in the professional sphere, but I get plenty of kisses from my trainer, my BO and other social acquaintances. Or, I did.

Perhaps the conditions in Madrid have made for a perfect storm that people in rural areas will not experience. In my village, for example, we are still clear. I haven't kissed my DH or son in a week, though.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> Unfortunately, the Madrid area is being the hardest hit because it is the capital, with a large population density of 6.5 million, major use of public transportation, etc. It is also a major hub between Europe/Asia and the Americas, with millions of tourists and travellers passing through each year.
> 
> Another important factor is the generalized huggy-kissiness of this culture, like in Italy. Growing up in the US, I don't remember being kissed by my parents, but here we kiss family members several times daily and friends whenever we meet. Or, at least, we did. It is not done in the professional sphere, but I get plenty of kisses from my trainer, my BO and other social acquaintances. Or, I did.
> 
> Perhaps the conditions in Madrid have made for a perfect storm that people in rural areas will not experience. In my village, for example, we are still clear. I haven't kissed my DH or son in a week, though.


We are like that as well. We even peck colleagues on the cheek every now and then. It was rather comical to see background politicians hug it out while our president was giving us a stern talking to on the TV about social distancing. I guess they were suitably reprimanded afterwards, but those habits are hard to root out and it does need to be taken into consideration when planning a response for a particular region. You would expect Japan to have a much higher infection rate by now, due to the population density and proximity to China and Korea but their habits are acutely aware of pathogen transmition in every day life.


----------



## Acadianartist

My husband is still going to work. He's a lawyer, working alone (sole practitioner) with one support staff. He assures me they sanitize after each client (only one client comes in at a time) and makes them sit at the opposite end of the boardroom table to make sure they are far away from each other. 

I'm still not thrilled about this. But people need lawyers, our courtrooms haven't yet closed (though he's hoping they will and hasn't been to court yet), and deadlines are still applicable. Also, he's completely self-employed so if he doesn't see clients, he doesn't make money. I have a good salary, but we're used to two good salaries to pay all the bills. It would be a major strain if he couldn't go in. He is telling his clients he's happy to do phone consults instead of in-person meetings, but few want to pay for that. 

I still hate that he's going out. The rest of us are staying home so he is our weak link. I am making him wash his hands and change his clothes the minute he comes in the door, but still.


----------



## ACinATX

Has anyone considered those "bidet" things that attach to your toilet? I am not personally a fan, but a lot of people apparently try them and really like them. They can reduce or eliminate TP use...

Like @Horsef, I am worried about my horses if there is a lockdown. However, I read through the guidelines for the "shelter in place" advisory in the Bay Area, and there are exceptions for taking care of "pets," and in addition pet stores and farm stores are allowed to stay open. That's obviously one step less than an actual lockdown, but I hope that if we get to that stage here there will also be exceptions for "pets." My three giant pets are on a pasture, but it's a poor one, and they probably need some supplemental hay. The guy that works there is older, as is the barn owner. And I don't really trust anyone except myself to take care of my horses...
@Spanish Rider that's interesting about the anti-inflamatories. I take turmeric extract. I had forgotten about how inflamation is part of your body's approach to fighting infection. I will think about what that means for my turmeric intake...


----------



## RegalCharm

Spanish Rider said:


> Well, that sounds horrible, doesn't it?
> 
> Basically, what is happening is that the big public teaching hospitals in the cities are overflowing. So, they are now using the facilities of the small private hospitals (as all elective surgeries have been cancelled) for the run-off. 'Seized' to me sounds like a Venezuelan/Chavist expropriation. Here, the use of the facilities has been offered and accepted as a temporary solution (we hope).
> 
> Again, I hope that the word has gotten out in time and that this does not happen where you are, @RegalCharm.
> 
> In the future, it would be interesting to have a discussion of pros/cons of private versus public healthcare. Here in Spain, we have both. They are independent yet compatible, as many doctors choose to work in both private and public institutions.


I did not intend for coping the headline to be an alarmists. Sorry for that.


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## Acadianartist

I think TP is the least of our worries. People who are vulnerable, and people willing to pull out guns over TP should be our biggest worries.


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## ACinATX

My husband hasn't been taking this seriously at all. But yesterday, the Bay Area (where his work HQ is) instituted their shutdown, and a bunch of his co-workers over there started freaking out. And they found one of his parent's friends dead, apparently of respiratory causes, but since this guy lived alone no one really knows for sure.

He just left to go to the grocery store, "To get some bread and peanut butter in case we can't leave the house for a while." I was like, I was at the store yesterday, and there is NO bread or peanut butter, don't even bother. I mean, that ship sailed last week. 
But he went anyway....


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## gunslinger

I don't know what we're going to do about the people who live paycheck to paycheck....who are likely to have no money to buy anything in a week or two.
People need to work, and while the business "machine" spun down quickly, I think it might not spin back up as fast as it spun down.
Many businesses are in the same position. Restaurants for the most part area a low margin business anyway, and many have leases to pay etc.
Many of these small businesses are not going to survive.


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## Spanish Rider

@RegalCharm , no apologies needed. There are just many ways to tell the story, and the word 'seize' in a title does sell. Politically, Spain can't seem to get a break in the international press. Because of Franco, the liberals call us 'fascist', yet with the current left-wing government the conservatives call us 'socialist'. Can't win! (Insert laughing emoji)
@Horsef , was it your president who gave a speech about social distancing, to then turn around and shake the hand of his colleague, then apologize by patting him on the arm? Hard habits to break!


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## AnitaAnne

I have been reading along, but long hours and extra days at work limit my ability to respond. 

Thank you @Spanish Rider for all the very important information you have shaded. The most recent, Viral Load and corticosteroid use are timely. As an asthmatic and RN interacting with every patient a minimum of 8xdaily, my risk is high. 

I had already changed inhalers to one without corticosteroids, last summer. 

Rumor has it that COVID-19 cannot survive temperatures above 77F but I do not have the research to validate that information. Anyone comment?


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## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> @
> [MENTION=185066]Horsef , was it your president who gave a speech about social distancing, to then turn around and shake the hand of his colleague, then apologize by patting him on the arm? Hard habits to break!


You know how politicians like to have a row of their aids stand behind them when giving a speech?

Well, those background people were literally hugging and kissing each other as they were filing in behind the president’s back. And not one or two, just about all of them.

I guess politicians are human as well and have emotions - and need reassurance in times of crisis. It was hilarious and a bit scary at the same time.


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## PoptartShop

Well, Sunday night everyone at work got an email that we have to work from home (remotely) until further notice. 

I am getting paid, won't lose any PTO which is good & I can work in my jammies. :lol: No commute either, which saves me gas!

But, the governor of MD closed all restaurants, bars & gyms yesterday at 5pm. Only takeout/delivery, no dine-in at all. Schools are closed & the grocery stores are still open, but crazy of course. I am avoiding them at all costs!


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## SilverMaple

Acadianartist said:


> I think TP is the least of our worries. People who are vulnerable, and people willing to pull out guns over TP should be our biggest worries.


Exactly. A lot of people didn't take this seriously and prepare, and now they're the ones facing families home for the forseeable future and empty shelves at the store. And if it's anything like it is here, those same people tend to be the ones with an armory of guns and ammo in their homes. Our local gun shop had a sale on ammunition the other day and sold out in three hours. 

The hoarding may well have crippled the supply chain. Warehouses only keep 2-3 months stock on-hand. Most of that sold within the last week; even if the local stores are able to restock now, once the warehouses are empty, they're empty. By mid-April, things will be looking pretty bleak for those who don't have a stockpile of food and essentials. We have quite a bit of food and supplies here, but we're already using as few paper towels as possible, using TP sparingly, and rather than going back for seconds at mealtime, we're limiting ourselves to one serving and saving the leftovers for the next day. If we're wrong and it's no big deal, well, we eat too much anyway. If we're right, we might save ourselves some scrambling when there's nothing to be had in rural areas when the smaller stores aren't able to purchase restock as prices rise.


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## SilverMaple

We're a farming area, and local producers are worried they have cows calving with collapsing beef markets; same with milk. Sales are excellent right now as people buy food, but once the restaurants are closed and purse strings tighten, those markets will be glutted. One local producer already said if people start going hungry, he will slaughter some hogs/cattle so people can eat as in a few weeks, they'll be costing him more to feed than they're worth.

Hopefully the closure of so many businesses will slow the spread so things can get back to normal soon and people can stop worrying about how they're going to wipe their rears and feed their families. I do worry the effect this may have on animals. People who become sick will struggle to care for animals. Those who don't make it will have animals who are now homeless. Keeping pets cared for when the whole household is sick is bad enough; feeding cattle, hogs, sheep, goats, and horses when one is too short of breath to walk farther than the bathroom will be impossible. My horses are at a friend's house-- but they are both elderly and high-risk. We're alternating days caring for the horses and no longer visiting when I'm there so we have no contact and I don't unknowingly bring illness to them, or vice versa. We moved hay the other day to an area where, if it comes down to it, we can simply open a gate and turn the horses in on the row of roundbales rather than forking off hay daily to fill their feeders. Grass is starting to come in on the pastures, so in a couple of weeks there may be enough there to supplement their hay if needed, too. Ideal? No. But they'd be fed if I can't get out to feed or the property owners are both too ill to do it. Animal rescues are already reporting high levels of dogs and cats that are owner-surrendered-- families worry about the money to care/feed their pets due to no work. At least horses on pasture can eke out until the grass comes in if necessary. Cats and dogs need to be fed. That $50 spent on a bag of dog food could feed the family for a few weeks... My puppy has a vaccination appointment tomorrow. It was supposed to be next week, but they called yesterday wondering if I could come in tomorrow instead in case their staff get sick/shut down. Most of their small animal appointments for routine or minor issues have cancelled due to financial concerns, and they're asking people who have elective surgeries to postpone to conserve supplies for emergencies. My appointment is at 3:15 and I'm the first small animal appointment of the day... usually they're booked two weeks out.

Horse sales are cancelled-- many depended on those sales for income, now they're feeding horses they weren't planning on. Expos are cancelled-- more money lost from breeding fee purchases and horse sales. Our local auctions are limiting attendance to registered buyers or online/telephone bids only. No full auction houses on Saturday night. You deliver your stock during the day and go home, they sell online/over the phone rather than to a crowd, and you are mailed your check. Prices will fall as only people who plan on buying will attend; no more impulse buys or 'that's a great price for those calves; I'll buy a few' purchases. Most people are soon to be out of hay entirely-- with no more to be had for months. How will all of these animals people hadn't planned on still having to care for be fed? It's worrisome.


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## Aprilswissmiss

ACinATX said:


> Has anyone considered those "bidet" things that attach to your toilet? I am not personally a fan, but a lot of people apparently try them and really like them. They can reduce or eliminate TP use...


Quite a few people have caught onto this already, including my friend, who says she ordered a simple one online but they're already on backorder as well. :icon_rolleyes:


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## egrogan

I apologize if someone has already posted this, as I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts, but this site is proving to be an excellent data source and is at least providing citations for its data sources as reported: https://www.worldometers.info/coron...6J6NY7ktMCbwdMpgKvqQrThQI3-ga8pUqkRvwadl7Y0Eg. 

Of course, any reporting tool is only as good as the data going in, and we all know that data tracking right now has its limits and may be downright false in some countries. Accepting all those caveats, I have been having a good discussion with many of my statistics nerd colleagues and this site has been very useful- as far as I can tell, the only source of even preliminary data that allows you to compare countries meaningfully by using the last column of the "confirmed cases by country" table. The benefit of this column is that it is scaling cases by population, reporting the number of cases per 1 million people (not as good as a true per capita report, but no one can seem to find that). There is a graphic making the rounds through the US right now showing the number of cases in the States plotted side-by-side with the number of cases in Italy, and how the curve is increasing over time- the problem with this graphic is that while the numbers appear to be exactly the same each week, the US has 6.5times the population of Italy. So, for the US, those numbers should actually be great news, because it would mean the rate of spread is much, much lower. Of course, the complicating factor is the serious problem of undertesting in the US right now, which is likely severely underreporting the raw number of cases.

I think we have to accept there is no great comparative data and do what we can to adjust to this "new normal" of most institutions being shut down or moved to virtual interactions.


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## Spanish Rider

@egrogan , although timely comparisons may not be perfect with that data, that website does demonstrate the potential impact on the healthcare system awaiting Europe and the US, which is essential for planning.

In the chart below from @egrogan's link (thank you), several data stand out to me:

1) Per capita (last column on right), Spain has now passed China in number of cases (no data for Italy), but Switzerland has an even higher rate. @SwissMiss , any word on what's happening there? 

2) Out of its total of 80,000+ cases, China still has 3226 requiring serious/critical care. That is a massive care load for smaller countries like those in Europe.

3) The US reports 5636 cases, yet only 12 requiring serious/critical care. That number is surprisingly low. It could be attributed to differences in reporting (the other countries have nationalized healthcare and simultaneous centralized reporting), or perhaps the isolating is working so patients are presenting with very low viral loads (I would LOVE to think this is true).

4) The US per capita rate is extremely low at only 17 (great news!), but we won't know whether the upwards trend has been controlled until the next 5-7 days.


A round of applause for @AnitaAnne and other healthcare workers on HF. :clap::clap::clap:


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## rambo99

No cases of covid-19 up here as of today. People here are doing the social distancing. Local stores have at most 3 people in them at a time. Shelf's are well stocked. 

Local gas stations are also very quiet only a few people at most at one time. 

Schools are closed tomorrow might stay closed till September. 

Have plenty of food for us and all animals. Stocked up should be good till late August. Plenty of hay also had 40 round bales hauled in. Pays to work at a boarding barn, they have connections for hay.

Let's not forget all the people in the health care industry,who are caring for the seriously ill with covid-19.


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## Caledonian

We have 195 cases and 2 deaths. 

There are cases in every area except the small islands that make up the archipelago called the Outer Hebrides/Na h-Eileanan Siar and Orkney. Greater Glasgow and Clyde has the highest number but it is one of the most populated parts of the country. There's hot spots in other parts of the Central Belt and north east. The Shetland islands have an especially high number of cases given their small population, which may in part be due to a high number of people from around the world passing through to recent events and oil rigs.

There are schools closed for deep cleaning after pupils and teachers fell ill. The rest are to stay open for the time being. 

In a few weeks, those over 70 will be asked to reduce social contact. They will be able to go out for necessities such as groceries, or to walk in the fresh air away from others. They will not have to self-isolate unless they are ill. 

As of yesterday, all gatherings of over 500 people are banned but most events, regardless of size, are being cancelled anyway. People are being told to avoid restaurants, theaters and pubs, while sporting events have been cancelled or are to be held behind closed doors.

I have been told that I will be working from home until further notice, which will be difficult given that my focus is teaching but at least i still have a job. 

I am beginning to notice a big change in the shops. A few days ago there were gaps in the shelves, usually TP and pasta areas; today, many of the aisles were empty, some items were rationed and there were members of staff watching to see that people didn't take more than their fair share.


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## kewpalace

Our court has suspended all civil matter through 4/1/20. We're moving all motions and trials until that day. They recommend those over 65 & with certain health issues go home for that time. My Judge is over 65, so he is going home. I have asthma, which is one of the conditions, but am looking forward to getting ahead of motions while I can. I can always request time later if I need to. I'm pretty insulated - my little office is off by itself and I usually don't see anyone anyway. So I can crank up the tunes and pound out the write-ups. :winetime:

Criminal matters are proceeding as usual. Don't know if they are curtailing what they can, but there are not alot that they can push off.


Edited to add: We were positive free until today. A visitor to our county has tested positive. Wish they would have practiced social distancing ....


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## tinyliny

gunslinger said:


> I don't know what we're going to do about the people who live paycheck to paycheck....who are likely to have no money to buy anything in a week or two.
> People need to work, and while the business "machine" spun down quickly, I think it might not spin back up as fast as it spun down.
> Many businesses are in the same position. Restaurants for the most part area a low margin business anyway, and many have leases to pay etc.
> Many of these small businesses are not going to survive.





This is my biggest concern, too. If too many small businesses fail, then our economic recovery from this will stall, big time. There are small things we can do to help:


buy gift certificates from restaurants you know want to still be there when the dust settles. you can go eat there later. 

Tip big!
if you have a worker, like a barn person, house cleaner, etc, who you know needs regular income, give them a Christmas bonus NOW!
Order food for take out. If you are worried, you can put it on a plate of your own, and microwave it hot. The virus does not survive heat well at all.


The government will need to take DRASTIC action, and I don't mean some kind of 'tax break'. A tax break will not help small businesses if they have no income for them to pay taxes on. The government will need to pull out ALL the stops and throw BILLIONS at this, because if not, it will cost HUNDREDS of BILLIONS later.


These actions will be 'socialism' sorts of actions, which some will not like, but that's what is needed.


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## CopperLove

I'm now officially one of those working from home. I work in a technical college system and even though we are switching to online learning, I have to wonder how long that will last as many of our students' programs just can't be learned online. Originally I think the plan was to provide access to the labs at certain times of day but now as things progress I feel like they will probably make the decision to close altogether for a few weeks. Policy on what we plan to do has changed daily as our leadership team attempts to follow the situation and make the best decisions they can as things unfold.

As I'm in PR & Marketing, everything I do can be reasonably accomplished at home except for taking photos of classes and events, and it's not like anyone is going to be gathered together for a photo during this time anyway. My workstation in my office runs off of a laptop hooked into dual screens anyway so I just put my laptop in my bag along with my notes and a copy of the brand guide in my backpack and carried it home to turn into a mobile workstation.

As of this moment, everyone is still getting paid including hourly and part-time workers. I worry about how that works out for them in the event that we are shut down and the shut down lasts longer than expected... I am also extremely worried about local businesses, especially newer ones that have just popped up recently. I can't imagine how devastated they are right now.

Fun fact for readers: Did you know you can still support your local bookstore without ever going out in public by using libro.fm? It works the same as audiobooks, for the same monthly price, but you choose a local store to support instead.


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## Spanish Rider

Doctors and nurses in Spain, especially Madrid, are running out of personal protective equipment (PPE). In our provincial hospital, though, they are holding their own.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Instead of Corona, if people want to really worry about something it's tobacco, poor diet, alcohol, lack of exercise, and don't drive (or ride in a car)...
No joking...I'm serious!
(My brother is in the process of dying from alcohol. We've tried intervention multiple times, wife left him. Sad, slow suicide.

National Safety Council... In 2019, an estimated*38,800*people lost their lives to car crashes – a 2% decline from 2018 (39,404 deaths) and a 4% decline from 2017 (40,231 deaths). About 4.4 million people were injured seriously enough to require medical attention in crashes last year.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## Acadianartist

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Instead of Corona, if people want to really worry about something it's tobacco, poor diet, alcohol, lack of exercise, and don't drive (or ride in a car)...
> No joking...I'm serious!
> (My brother is in the process of dying from alcohol. We've tried intervention multiple times, wife left him. Sad, slow suicide.
> 
> National Safety Council... In 2019, an estimated*38,800*people lost their lives to car crashes – a 2% decline from 2018 (39,404 deaths) and a 4% decline from 2017 (40,231 deaths). About 4.4 million people were injured seriously enough to require medical attention in crashes last year.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


Have you thought of starting a thread about alcoholism and car crashes? Not sure why you insist on posting this information here over and over again. We heard you the first time. This thread is about Covid-19. All the things you bring up are important, but they are not happening all at the same time.


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## loosie

Horsef said:


> That makes sense - people are hoping they would help them in case of pulmonary insufficiency. I doubt it works like that but emergencies and fear make people come up with all sorts of solutions - humans are very resourceful.
> 
> I am asthmatic. I bought extra pumps as soon as this thing started because I guessed people would go after them. I guess I should have bought more than two...


You can't get them without a proscription tho so they need a doc's diagnosis first.


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## Spanish Rider

@FuddyDuddy , interesting how fatalities from gun violence are never mentioned among your numbers.

I don't like projections, especially for a novel virus that is mutating, but the worst-case scenario of the CDC puts the death toll at between 200,000 and 1.7 million Americans if this thing is allowed to run untethered and without a vaccine.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...oronavirus-model-210m-infected-1-7m-dead.html


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## loosie

Spanish Rider said:


> Now is the time to consider eating healthier, staying away from the junk food, sugar, etc., and concentrate on gut health.


...Like not eating too high carbs like bread, rice, spuds, flour goods.... For gut health, allergy & other health reasons, my family eat low-carb & don't eat much of that kind generally, so it will be interesting how we all feel if we have to go 'high carb' through lack of choice.


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## Horsef

loosie said:


> You can't get them without a proscription tho so they need a doc's diagnosis first.


Not everywhere - I just go into the pharmacy and buy them. We don’t have that many doctors to go around so they only control medication which is susceptible to abuse and antibiotics. Everything else you can just go in and buy. It works just fine. Very few people would go puffing on Ventolin if they don’t need it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Hubby's working protocols have changed again. They are not to see anyone with respiratory complaints with or without fever. That's pretty much everybody right now, they were still seeing 30+ flu patients a day when this CV19 scare stuff hit. Today they had 5 patients by noon and 4 were previous patients of one of the providers when he was in private practice, so 1 patient that was actually an urgent care patient who wasn't suffering respiratory symptoms. BTW, we have at last count 17 or 19 cases in the entire state, 1 in my county and none where he practices. We have had a very hard time getting tests here in OK, so I'm sure the testing and data are VERY skewed. 

At this point our city (town, less than 60,000) has declared state of emergency and all bars, restaurants, gyms and all city offices are closed to the public. Drive through ordering, delivery and to go are allowed, but not eat in. Friend went to another Walmart and they were as stripped bare as the one I went to. Now if Walmart can't stay stocked, that says something about availability and the state of hoarding. Glad I keep a case of tomato sauce, tomato paste, beans, rice and stuff in my deep freeze. I can make and freeze jambalaya, gumbo, split pea soup, stews and so on, without needing to hit the store. Suits me fine right now, I hate grocery shopping anyhow. 

I'm glad to do whatever is needed to get in front of this mess. I don't wish the pain and suffering of CV19 on anyone and hope that we can get this contained sooner rather than later.


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## SueC

Spanish Rider said:


> A word about asthma and inhalers:
> 
> Many times asthma symptoms are exacerbated by GERD (acid reflux). Now is the time to consider eating healthier, staying away from the junk food, sugar, etc., and concentrate on gut health. It may improve symptoms and lessen your need for ventolin, giving you a longer supply over time. Also, try eating your last meal several hours before going to bed so that your dinner is digested before lying down, again to avoid the reflux. Green tea and herbal infusions like mint are good for this, too.


Excellent advice. The basics of _healthy_ nutrition, regular exercise and sufficient sleep and rest should always be taken seriously - everything else we can do builds on that foundation. Most people in the West, however, are falling way short on healthy nutrition...




> COVID-19 deaths have also been associated with the use of systemic corticosteroids, which is logical because these anti-inflammatory agents increase risk of infection of all types. We can only assume that the same would be true with inhaled corticosteroids.


Yes, that was to be expected - and is one reason I refuse prescriptions for nasal corticosteroids during hayfever season, which coincides with flu season etc here. Tried it on a GP's advice when I was 23 and promptly got thrush through all my nasal cavity and mouth - completely disgusting, and was hard to shift and get back to normal. I did a bit of reading up after that experience and was astonished that nasal corticosteroids are prescribed so frequently, even to people over 65 and people with factors predisposing them to infections. The last thing you want to do is to depress the immune response through the linings of the nose, mouth and throat, during virus season in particular... A case of "solving" one problem to create far more serious problems...

Thank you very much, @Spanish Rider, for the super information you're sharing with us all, and I wish you and your family all the very best through this situation. :hug: (...look, a hygienic, no-risk hug! ;-))

And I just wanted to say this is a fabulous thread, and goes to show what can happen if a bunch of intelligent, caring people put their heads together to discuss something.  Where else can I get a decent international perspective from people on the ground all over the globe, without hype and sensationalism, and giving us the very best links, as opposed to the ocean of bilge that's being written on the topic in the general media? Thank you, everyone, for doing such a great job selecting worthwhile information and discussing the issue in such an intelligent and compassionate manner. I'm in love with you all. :loveshower:

Here's the latest update clip from Dr Norman Swan:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-17/dr-norman-swan-explains-coronavirus-terminology/12061364


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Spanish Rider said:


> @FuddyDuddy , interesting how fatalities from gun violence are never mentioned among your numbers.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't like projections, especially for a novel virus that is mutating, but the worst-case scenario of the CDC puts the death toll at between 200,000 and 1.7 million Americans if this thing is allowed to run untethered and without a vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...oronavirus-model-210m-infected-1-7m-dead.html


Didn't think to include gun deaths. From Wiki...
Gun violence against other persons is most common in poor urban areas and is frequently associated with*gang violence, often involving male juveniles or young adult males. Although*mass shootings*are covered extensively in the media,*mass shootings in the United States*account for only a small fraction of gun-related deaths.

This may be one of your best COVID-19 research sources, otherwise it becomes exponential speculation which hasn't occurred yet (speculation it may since there are possibly untested people non-symptomatic infecting others).

https://ourworldindata.org/team

I tend to be optimistic, sorry I'm wired that way. Fear causes panic which leads to conspiracy theories and irrational decisions and lifestyle changes. 
Now two month from now everyone can say poop on you Fuddy Duddy! I told you so!!!!!









Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## SueC

ACinATX said:


> @Spanish Rider that's interesting about the anti-inflamatories. I take turmeric extract. I had forgotten about how inflamation is part of your body's approach to fighting infection. I will think about what that means for my turmeric intake...


I would be surprised if turmeric was anywhere near as immunosuppressive as corticosteroids. A distinction needs to be made between steroids and non-steroidal anti-inflammatories like aspirin (or willow bark extract ;-)), turmeric etc. They act quite differently, which is one reason why all the turmeric in the world wouldn't stop you from rejecting an organ transplant!

But it is very good to think again about everything we're putting in our bodies, and to do some research on matters that could be a concern!


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## Horsef

> I can make and freeze jambalaya, gumbo, split pea soup, stews and so on, without needing to hit the store.


I would advise against cooking and freezing non-perishable staples. Keep them as they are. If this thing goes belly up, we might loose electricity. And even if they bring it back up within 24 hours, your frozen food will spoil. Source: grew up in a communist country during the transition, through a civil war and also in Africa.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Horsef said:


> I would advise against cooking and freezing non-perishable staples. Keep them as they are. If this thing goes belly up, we might loose electricity. And even if they bring it back up within 24 hours, your frozen food will spoil. Source: grew up in a communist country during the transition, through a civil war and also in Africa.


Because we live in Tornado Alley (OK has more tornadoes than anywhere on earth), we're hooked up to a generator. Haven't had power issues in years (Knock on wood). My deep freeze holds probably 3 months worth of food at any given time.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

For anyone that's interested, here's the actual State of Emergency for Stillwater, OK. 

(STILLWATER, OKLAHOMA / March 17, 2020) — Beginning at 8 a.m. tomorrow, March 18, the City of Stillwater is ordering the closure of many public venues and restricting restaurants to take out or delivery options within Stillwater city limits. These additional restrictions are to prevent the spread of the virus within the Stillwater community. These restrictions will remain in effect until Sunday, April 5—but may be extended.

“These measures are taken out of an abundance of caution,” City Manager Norman McNickle said. “The spread of COVID-19 is a serious public health emergency and we must be aggressive in our efforts to protect the lives of our community members. We are doing our best to take the necessary actions to prevent the spread of the virus while keeping the public informed and updated.”

These additional restrictions, as part of a new proclamation declaring a state of emergency, were signed by Mayor Will Joyce on Tuesday, March 17. The following facilities that are located within the City of Stillwater are ordered to close to the public until April 5:
• Gyms and fitness facilities
• Bars and lounges
• Entertainment venues
• Movie theatres
• Bowling alleys
• Skating rinks

Restaurant dining rooms are ordered to close to the public until April 5, although pickup and delivery service may remain open and is encouraged.

This new proclamation follows the mayor’s previous declaration on March 15, the governor’s statewide declaration of emergency and new guidelines established by the Center for Disease Control regarding increased social distancing.

“We realize the COVID-19 prevention strategies that have rolled out this week by schools, businesses, and all levels of government are concerning for community members,” Mayor Will Joyce said. “We empathize and want to thank Stillwater residents and businesses for their flexibility and willingness to make adjustments to their daily lives to help protect and promote the health and wellbeing of their neighbors.”

The City relays updates, resources and information through its coronavirus information page: http://stillwater.org/news/view/id/531.

See updates and information from the Center for Disease Control at https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nCoV/index.html
-30-
For media inquiries, contact the Department of Marketing and Civic Engagement at 405.742.8219 or email [email protected].
• Sign up for Stillwater eNotifications.
• Sign up for Be Informed, Stillwater (Emergency Alerts)
• Follow the City of Stillwater on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and more.


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## Ridingthatgrey

On April 10th its my brothers 19th birthday and 3 year anniversary of his death ughhhh im gonna be so upsettt


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## tinyliny

April 10th is my father's birthday. the 4 year anniversary of his death. Difference is, my dad was almost 91. A person should get the chance to live a decently long life. 



I hope you get through the day without too much heartache.


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## SueC

Horsef said:


> I would advise against cooking and freezing non-perishable staples. Keep them as they are. If this thing goes belly up, we might loose electricity. And even if they bring it back up within 24 hours, your frozen food will spoil. Source: grew up in a communist country during the transition, through a civil war and also in Africa.


Times like this I'm again so glad we decided to go off-grid. Everything at our place runs off solar, and through a battery bank at night. We cook with gas bottles, one 8.5kg camping bottle is enough to last us two months, we always have one in backup, and if that ran out we could cook on the wood stove or, in summer, in an electric frypan / crockpot. 

When we owner-built our place, we thought long and hard about how we could make ourselves more independent from outside supplies of everything, which is great at times like this, but also, in normal everyday life, has made us able financially to downshift from being on two professional salaries, to both of us working only part-time outside our own place. The total running cost of our house, in energy terms, is $120/year for bottled gas. Heating is mostly passive solar, and works really well (I designed the house to self-heat and self-cool as much as possible); we run our wood heater on average two evenings a week in winter, mostly as a backup to solar water heating; there's ceiling and pedestal fans in case of summer humidity, but the house itself stays comfortably cool and no air conditioning is needed. (Where we are climatically, we get below freezing at night a few dozen times a year, and over 40 degrees Celsius during summer heatwaves.)

We did all of our "life reconstruction" at the time of building our own place, when turning 40 - on salaries that weren't ever above national average, and we took out a well below national average mortgage for our build, so I've spent a fair bit of time writing articles in owner-builder and self-sufficiency/hippie magazines showing ordinary people exactly how they can get more independent and improve their own quality of life in ways that really matter - getting increasingly off the treadmill, time for relationships, housing that's designed to be comfortable and low-input (which most Australian professional builders simply don't do; they keep building large, uncomfortable, expensive temples to the air conditioner and electrical or fossil fuel heater, which keeps ordinary citizens paying huge electricity bills to corporations and buying gadgets to help keep them comfortable, none of which is necessary if you build right in the first place).

If anyone is interested, there's a downshifting article here: https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page54/#post1970756145

...and an off-grid living one here: https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page34/#post1970635913

The way we did things obviously isn't the only sensible way to get more independent - there's many ways you can do that. For example, many people are achieving a lot of F&V growing just in their suburban backyards (or in allotments or community gardens, if they're inner-city).


----------



## rambo99

Now there are 60 covid-19 positive cases in MN ,still way South of our county. But our local grocery store is only one that has TP on shelf. They are limiting how many packages you can buy.

I have no plans on going anywhere now,I'll be staying parked. Hubby is still working yet.


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## AnitaAnne

Real couple's experience contracting COVID-19


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## SueC

loosie said:


> You can't get them without a proscription tho so they need a doc's diagnosis first.


Ventolin is freely available over the counter in Western Australia, and I've never had any trouble getting it (hayfever season = mild asthma, so use it occasionally). I imagine though that if they don't put any restrictions on it now, hoarders are going to buy up the lot, leaving people in need without.

I've got to say, the stupid behaviour of a lot of our citizens is really disappointing. It's such a "me-first" attitude... idiots buying whole shopping trolleys of toilet paper and not caring about other people in the community - ditto medical supplies. My husband tells me they've had to hide their medical masks at work because patients are stealing them - not just taking one to cover up their respiratory symptoms in the waiting room, but taking handfuls, even people without respiratory symptoms. :evil: OMG, the sense of entitlement...


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## SueC

Aprilswissmiss said:


> Quite a few people have caught onto this already, including my friend, who says she ordered a simple one (bidet attachment) online but they're already on backorder as well. :icon_rolleyes:


I can't help but think that there's a lot of profiteering going on with this crisis - and that certain sections of business are rubbing their hands together at being able to sell massive amounts of items that there isn't normally a high demand for - like extra freezers, bidet attachments, expensive fancy cleaners... (...soap is just fine in your own home for your hands; and my husband's medical practice simply use a neutral detergent for wiping down surfaces, which is just as effective as much the antibacterial stuff being hyped up everywhere, and people, please remember there is a difference between bacteria and viruses... DH says that for chair arms, door handles etc they've started to use a chlorine-based solution this week as it has a residual disinfecting effect, but that you don't need a lot of fancy products for good hygiene)

...unfortunately, panic buying is profitable for a lot of suppliers - especially if it means a lot of the stock that's bought is going to end up rotting / going out of date, as waste increases future consumption...


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## loosie

SueC said:


> Times like this I'm again so glad we decided to go off-grid. Everything at our place runs off solar, and through a battery bank at night.


Come on house settlement - we've just sold our old house & if all goes according to plan, settlement is on 27th. Fingers x'd for me please! Because the first thing we're going to spend money on is solar batteries. It sucks that even with solar panels, without batteries, even power outages during the day effect us. And with no power, we also have no water (cos we're on tanks & bore) and no communication(only get mobile reception with a plug in booster).


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## loosie

^Yeah, found today that ventolin can be got without proscription - they got some in, but I was only allowed to buy one. 

And yes, profiteering... Fruit & veg - thought I'd get some brassica, but cauliflowers were EIGHT DOLLARS EACH! And Priceline Pharmacy are selling hand sanitiser for FORTY FIVE DOLLARS! And that's not counting the... lovely people buying up supplies & selling them on for stupid prices. There have been vans coming up from the city & buying up all the supplies in small towns - we now have 'bouncers' in our IGA & heard same at other places - if they don't recognise you, you have to show your license & prove you're local to shop there.

Dreamcatcher, the other thing with cooking & freezing food is vitamin content - if instead you fresh freeze vegies, while they will still lose some goodies, they'll be in better nick by the time you eat them than pre cooked. I only lightly cook vegies as a rule, and if they're going into a meal, I chuck them in near the end.


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## Spanish Rider

@loosie , I hear you about the food choices! We ate our last fresh meat yesterday and I have actually eaten pasta, which I NEVER eat!


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## Spanish Rider

@SueC , here in Europe, many of us have been scrambling to get the word out. With the censoring in China, we weren't getting reports from behind the scenes. Some Spanish physicians just realized yesterday that those hospitals-built-in-a-week in Wuhan were actually containment centers for asymptomatic positive cases. Now doctors here are pleading for a similar set-up. Tough words to swallow in a democratic society.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

loosie said:


> Dreamcatcher, the other thing with cooking & freezing food is vitamin content - if instead you fresh freeze vegies, while they will still lose some goodies, they'll be in better nick by the time you eat them than pre cooked. I only lightly cook vegies as a rule, and if they're going into a meal, I chuck them in near the end.


I think I didn't word my post very well. I keep the non-perishables like tomato sauce, rice and the like, in the pantry. The only things going into the deep freeze are the prepared items like Jambalaya, Gumbo, soups & stews. That's more for convenience, hubby works 1 1/2 hrs. away from home so commutes and needs easy to throw in the microwave foods for eating on meal breaks. His days are long, 12 hr shifts, and so he's not here much on his work days. I don't like to cook for just one, so pre-prep a lot of meals. Fresh veggies & fruits do get blanched and frozen for later use. I even take my egg overages and scramble them and portion the uncooked eggs out into storage containers so we can use them in recipes or when just wanting an omelet or scramble, they freeze up well. 

When I have a garden, I harvest my veg and can or freeze the produce so we always have fresh veg. We do use the fresh stuff first, save the frozen for when we can't take it out of the garden or get it at the store.


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## Spanish Rider

Just watched this morning's gov't press conference. Ministry of Health gave today's numbers:

13,700+ confirmed infected (remember, we had 100-ish on March 7th, so this is the growth of just 11 days)
3,500 new cases in last 24h
600+deaths

Army general also there: forces are in Madrid and ready to go. Currently providing logistics support, but many Spaniards are calling for a full blockade around Madrid. 

Head of police there, too. Spaniards will not need to renew nat'l ID cards for the coming year (read into this how you wish).

Yesterday, 'President' (a coalition leader - did not win popular vote) of Spain announced a fiscal package of aid, no taxes on freelance workers/small business owners, and a new regulations in the works for a moratorium on mortgages and rent.

Italy just passed a law that no one can lose their jobs in the next 2 months. I am assuming that comes with a tax break for companies, but I have not read more. 


@DreamCatcher , 
Like you, I have most foods in the pantry, but I have been cooking batches of easily-digested foods like chicken-veg soup to freeze in case my husband and I get sick at the same time and our son has to feed us (which is my worst-case scenario).


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## SueC

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I think I didn't word my post very well. I keep the non-perishables like tomato sauce, rice and the like, in the pantry. The only things going into the deep freeze are the prepared items like Jambalaya, Gumbo, soups & stews. That's more for convenience, hubby works 1 1/2 hrs. away from home so commutes and needs easy to throw in the microwave foods for eating on meal breaks. His days are long, 12 hr shifts, and so he's not here much on his work days. I don't like to cook for just one, so pre-prep a lot of meals. Fresh veggies & fruits do get blanched and frozen for later use. I even take my egg overages and scramble them and portion the uncooked eggs out into storage containers so we can use them in recipes or when just wanting an omelet or scramble, they freeze up well.
> 
> When I have a garden, I harvest my veg and can or freeze the produce so we always have fresh veg. We do use the fresh stuff first, save the frozen for when we can't take it out of the garden or get it at the store.


I like your cooking approach. I too tend to cook in bulk and freeze portions (stews, soups etc) for later use for my husband to take for work lunches when I don't have anything like that in the fridge. I always did that for myself when I was working away from home too, because a good home-made stew chock full of vegies is better than anything you can buy "ready-made" - whether or not you've frozen it first. Combined with some fresh fruit, it's much better nutrition than a lot of people are eating for lunches.

Brett was home today with a sore throat (work said, "Don't come in!" - I have it too but it's unlikely at this stage to be COVID-19 as there are no reported infections in our area yet), so we ate very carefully. Here's what we had for lunch, and I'm really happy about this because we've worked really hard to eat more and more stuff we've grown ourselves, or was at least grown locally:



That's what an open roast beef / steak sandwich looks like at our place. At the very bottom is homemade wholemeal rye mix bread with sunflower seeds - I buy the flour in 12.5kg bags (one wheat, one rye), from a farm in the wheat belt which stone grinds their own grain - an outlet here stocks it. The grilled cheddar on it is the sole supermarket item besides the pepper and salt. Then a bunch of freshly picked salad greens from the garden: Red mustard, lime green and red mizuna, wasabi greens, fresh basil. The beef (from someone's Redmond home kill) on top of that, topped with home-made tomato sauce (own tomatoes), slices of cucumber, tomatoes and chunks of heritage beetroot from the garden. Under the top layer of tomatoes is an egg - we don't have our own chickens, as we trade our honey for a neighbour's free range eggs.

It took us years to get that local and that DIY with the food, and we take great pleasure in it. Good for us, and good for the environment - very little transport footprint there, and very fresh, organically grown food. We started out with just one or two items we produced ourselves at first, but gradually it's getting to the point where the majority of what's on the plate was grown on our own farm, or traded for produce from our farm with neighbours.


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## loosie

Spanish Rider said:


> 'President' (a coalition leader - did not win popular vote) of Spain...


We have a 'Prime Minister' like that at the mo. Going to have to borrow your inverted commas & definition for referring to him in future!! ;-)


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## RegalCharm

The covid-19 has some behavior similar to the Spanish Flu in that it turned into pneumonia that had not been seen before.. Only the Spanish flu targeted 15 to 35 yr. old. the most, while covid 19 seems to be targeting the older population hardest.

And it did not begin in Spain and the first wave began in Kansas.

https://virus.stanford.edu/uda/


"In 1918 children would skip rope to the rhyme (Crawford):

I had a little bird, 
Its name was Enza. 
I opened the window, 
And in-flu-enza. "


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## Horsef

Serbia: We are currently 70 cases so about 11 days behind Spain. No deaths so far.

This is what has been done so far:

- nobody over 65 is allowed out at all. Groceries and medication are being delivered to them.

- nobody is allowed out between 20:00-05:00 - this had to be done to stop youth from having a ball all over the country. We can’t even walk our dogs during that time.

- borders closed for foreigners 3 days ago. It appears they don’t want to close them for our citizens.

- Shops are fully stocked at all times except for disinfectants which are rationed, if you can find them. Yes, we even have -gasp! - Toilet paper. There was some panic buying but Serbia is a poor country and not many people can afford gazillion rolls of TP.

- military barracks and remote hotels have been prepared for isolation of people who have been in contact with infected. They tried home isolation, it didn’t work. Out of 7000 people they put on those orders, 2500 were not found at home when the police went around to check on them. So people need to be under armed guard to comply. Ah, well.

- all public transport will cease tomorrow.

- of course, no schools, universities.

- all sports venues have been closed, including equestrian.

I think they are doing the best they can under the circumstances. 

However, I have been wandering if we should have just let it roll. I don’t say this lightly - I am asthmatic and my mum is highly unlikely to make it. But our economy is so tiny and fragile, it’s going to take us years to get back to the point we were at two weeks ago. I’ve read somewhere that Netherlands is thinking about it. Horrible thought.


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## ACinATX

loosie said:


> Come on house settlement - we've just sold our old house & if all goes according to plan, settlement is on 27th. Fingers x'd for me please! Because the first thing we're going to spend money on is solar batteries. It sucks that even with solar panels, without batteries, even power outages during the day effect us. And with no power, we also have no water (cos we're on tanks & bore) and no communication(only get mobile reception with a plug in booster).


I wish we were at our rural place already. 10 acres, fruit trees, garden, well water, etc. We were considering putting in solar or a small wind turbine (maybe both, since it's Seattle). I think now my husband will be a lot more willing to do it.

But we're still stuck in the city. On the bright side, we can still get Whole Foods delivered in two hours, and hundreds of restaurants delivered as well. On the not so bright side, we had a storm and lost power last night. That really got me to thinking about losing power because of this. But it seems like even in the most hard-hit places, that has not happened. 

Still, once we get out on our place, I want to get set up to be off the grid. That place also has a ton of storage, unlike where we live now. I already tended to buy in bulk so we'd be fine for a few weeks of not going to the store even now, but I think going through this is going to have an effect on how I live in the future. Probably for a lot of us.


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## knightrider

> That really got me to thinking about losing power because of this. But it seems like even in the most hard-hit places, that has not happened.


This whole crisis reminds me so much of hurricane season where we live. And I got to thinking (and quite plausible, too, unfortunately) what happens if a hurricane hits in the middle of all this? Hurricane season starts in June. From Texas to Virginia, threats of hurricanes.

Also, another weird thought. One of the slang terms for covid 19 is "Boomer Remover". One of the campaign issues in the US is what to do about our dwindling social security payments. If all of us boomers are removed (or many of us anyway), won't have to worry about paying out our social security. People can put that money towards re-stimulating the economy. Grim thought.


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## LoriF

knightrider said:


> This whole crisis reminds me so much of hurricane season where we live. And I got to thinking (and quite plausible, too, unfortunately) what happens if a hurricane hits in the middle of all this? Hurricane season starts in June. From Texas to Virginia, threats of hurricanes.
> 
> Also, another weird thought. One of the slang terms for covid 19 is "Boomer Remover". One of the campaign issues in the US is what to do about our dwindling social security payments. If all of us boomers are removed (or many of us anyway), won't have to worry about paying out our social security. People can put that money towards re-stimulating the economy. Grim thought.


My girls were already talking about this. The second weird thought that is. I wouldn't put it past this world anymore to be honest with you. People do some pretty creepy stuff.

Maybe that is why they are now throwing it out there that these youngsters that are walking around asymptomatic are now going to have their lungs destroyed anyway.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Well, they're now claiming 29 cases in OK, up from 19 yesterday. When our testing capabilities catch up to our various infections, I wonder what will shake out? 

On another front, Pinto World Championships have just cancelled.


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## Horsef

We just spoke to a client of ours in Nigeria. This whole thing isn’t even on the radar for them. Since he is a European, he got worried and ran a simulation. Corona is not even in the top five deadly infectious diseases over there. Also, they have a very young population. It will most probably hit people who have other illnesses but those were mostly written off in any case. Grim.


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## kewpalace

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> On another front, Pinto World Championships have just cancelled.


 Our local cowhorse club cancelled their April 11th Show. The only shows going on are two small local shows.



Horsef said:


> We just spoke to a client of ours in Nigeria. This whole thing isn’t even on the radar for them.


Per the WHO Nigeria only has two reported cases as of yesterday, no deaths & 8 "imported" cases. And, as you said, they have other infectious diseases to worry about. Wonder how it interacts/affects with them ...


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## tinyliny

Let's be sure to call out bizarre rumors like that, for what they are; bizarre rumors. This pandemic was not caused by any political party or group. It's really caused by the forces of 'EVOLUTION'. and viruses are masters of that.


_I just deleted more of what I was going to write because it was becoming a rant. no need for that. . . . .
_


So, yeah. . . 'letting it roll'. That's what many countries will have to do, not out of policy, but out of any ability to do anything different. At some point, we will have to allow this to 'roll' through the population, unless some kind of vaccine is developed.


Maybe there's some benefit to having something skim off the oldest from the top of the population ladder. We humans are already living far beyond what our bodies are biologically programmed for from eons past. 

I would have to include myself in the 'skimming' . 


The US government will soon come out with an economic support package. I hope that those who receive money that don't need it will pass it on to those who truly do. There's a difference between having your retirement nest egg diminished, and folks losing their houses, their businesses, getting evicted from their apartments, etc because of a deep recession.


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## carshon

I have been informed by 2 people this week that they are removing me as a friend from the book of faces as I replied to their political post pointing this issue as one started by a party to curtail the other party. That is just ridiculous!

We have seen many new virus' in the past few years - and personally I think there will be many more. The one message I am preaching to my children is - look at how small our world really is!

The one lesson I hope the world learns is how we can work together and prepare for these things as there will be more in the future


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## gjb

New statistics in from the Governor of Ohio. We now have 88 confirmed cases today up from about 20 from yesterday. Ranging from a 2 year old to 91 year old. 
We are the 7th most populated state in the US.

He has closed barber and hair shops, nail salons and tattoo parlors today.

Also all employers are now to take temperatures of their employees before entering work.


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## loosie

Sorry to hear that, Classy and Tiny. :-(


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## Horsef

> And, as you said, they have other infectious diseases to worry about. Wonder how it interacts/affects with them ...


Seeing that these four are Nigeria’s top killers, I would go with - “It’s not going to be pretty, but they probably won’t even notice” 

Diarrheal Diseases.
NTDs & Malaria.
Neonatal Disorders.
HIV/AIDS & TB

Poor people.


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## Spanish Rider

> Maybe that is why they are now throwing it out there that these youngsters that are walking around asymptomatic are now going to have their lungs destroyed anyway.


It is true. One study found 30% of patients had lost 20-30% of their lung capacity, with ground-glasss opacities seen on CT scan (https://www.sciencealert.com/even-t...ona-can-be-left-gasping-for-breath-afterwards). Doctors in Spain are seeing the same.

In Spain, we have lost our first police officer to COVID-19, a 39-year-old male with no previous disease.

And to the 'boomer remover' comment: when this gets bad in your area, they had better hope they do not get appendicitis, a broken bone, have a car accident, etc. during the outbreak.

@gjb , after about 100 cases in a community is when it really starts to shoot up. We have gone from 100-ish to 14,000 in 10 days.


Amancio Ortega, Spanish billionaire and owner of several clothing chains like Zara and Mango, has dedicated all his factories to the production of surgical masks and gowns.


The first hotel in Madrid has been prepared to open tomorrow for patients requiring non-ICU care.


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## Spanish Rider

Came across this site to see what the curves of each country are like: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/infection-trajectory-flattening-the-covid19-curve/

This is what the curves of China, Italy and Spain look like. Before 'flattening the curve', cases in China doubled each day. In Italy and Spain, they have been doubling every 2 days.

The United States is on almost the same track, doubling every 2.5 days and with a bit of side-stepping that is probably the result of errors/delays in reporting.


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## knightrider

Just came across this interesting article from New York Times.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...11a9cd85463828c8&regi_id=88061450tion=topNews


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## ACinATX

I agree with @tinyliny. If they do end up sending people money, I will pass half of mine on to groups that are helping people affected, or possibly directly to people affected if I know any. I think everyone who doesn't really need the money should pledge the same.

We have some low income tenants and I told my MIL (who manages these houses) to tell them that if they can't pay their rent right now, that's fine. I am thinking to just tell them to forget about it altogether for the next few months. They are refugees with very large families and typically only one income earner. Honestly, if that person loses his job, we may end up not only cancelling their rent, but sending them money as well. I can't imagine having five kids to feed...


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## Acadianartist

ACinATX said:


> I agree with @tinyliny. If they do end up sending people money, I will pass half of mine on to groups that are helping people affected, or possibly directly to people affected if I know any. I think everyone who doesn't really need the money should pledge the same.
> 
> We have some low income tenants and I told my MIL (who manages these houses) to tell them that if they can't pay their rent right now, that's fine. I am thinking to just tell them to forget about it altogether for the next few months. They are refugees with very large families and typically only one income earner. Honestly, if that person loses his job, we may end up not only cancelling their rent, but sending them money as well. I can't imagine having five kids to feed...


Good for you! I'm not in a position to do this right now, as DH is self-employed and will likely lose money, but one thing I am doing is paying people ahead of time for services I would use anyway. Here's my list:

- farrier
- riding lessons for DD
- restaurant gift cards
- credit towards future purchases by a friend of mine who makes all sorts of things from earrings to custom T-shirts

By paying these people now for the next month or two of services, we can help them pay the rent and buy necessities until their businesses can re-open. Horses at my daughter's lesson barn still need to be fed even if they're temporarily closed to the public!


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## Remali

Sure hope everyone is doing OK. They finally shutdown restaurants and bars in the city I live in. We have 92 cases here in Wisconsin so far. I went out and got more groceries and stuff today, gonna hunker down now and not go anywhere.

Sure hope the government sends those checks out to everyone.

Saw the news from Italy today, how awful, it's just terrible everywhere. Hoping it doesn't go on for too much longer.....


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## Fuddyduddy1952

"All the things you bring up are important, but they are not happening all at the same time."
All of things I mentioned are happening every day, just like Corona or any other virus. I'm trying to give a perpective. 1/2 million deaths per year in the US from cigarette smoking. That's 1,369 deaths PER DAY, yet people don't strip stores of TP for that. Yes, as time goes on we'll hear of more cases, more deaths. 
It makes for great media attention. 
Is isolation from other people and hunkering down in your self sufficient house the answer? Home grocery deliveries that you get in a hazmat suit after you spray things with Lysol? 
I question things and try putting things in perspective. 
My 12 replies to this subject vs your 26 replies to COVID-19.


Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## SueC

Spanish Rider said:


> It is true. One study found 30% of patients had lost 20-30% of their lung capacity, with ground-glasss opacities seen on CT scan (https://www.sciencealert.com/even-t...ona-can-be-left-gasping-for-breath-afterwards). Doctors in Spain are seeing the same.


So just to clarify, this is in people who recovered from being ill from COVID-19 - not from the asymptomatic people who had the virus but didn't get ill? ...because I can't imagine that having 20-30% of your lung capacity destroyed would be an asymptomatic process...

Also, can you tell me whether that's 30% of people who were hospitalised with COVID-19 because they had it severely, or was it 30% of people who had any kind of symptoms?

My next question is, to what extent can lung damage heal? I guess this will be individual?

I had pneumonia badly as a 3-year-old and nearly died of it. Temperature near 40 degreec C and I was hallucinating, and I actually remember the hallucinations (flames all over the ceiling). I had some lung scarring from that, although it was never quantified how much. I don't know how much easier it would have been for me to do the uphills on mountains if that hadn't happened to me because I have never lived that life! But I suspect that my lungs did heal to an extent, perhaps because I was so young. Still, I always seem to be the one hyperventilating the most going uphill, but that doesn't mean I don't also overtake some climbers on the way up! (It's possible I just push myself more.)


----------



## SueC

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> My 12 replies to this subject vs your 26 replies to COVID-19.


This thread is about COVID-19, so it doesn't matter how many times someone posts on this topic, they will still be on topic. And as long as people aren't repeating themselves, that's OK.

Whereas you're actually repeating yourself off-topic. It's good to have some perspective about where COVID-19 sits in relation to other illnesses and causes of death, and it's good to be reminded that the average person should take steps to address other health issues that are more likely to kill them or incapacitate them than COVID-19. I agree that it would be a good thing if people in general were as hysterical about avoiding junk food as they are about getting COVID-19. It would eliminate about 70% of what is sold on our local supermarket shelves, and reduce a lot of stress on our environment as well, while making the population far healthier.

But I think the reason people are getting tired of your posts is because you give the impression that this pandemic therefore isn't something to worry about. I agree that it's not something we should be hysterical about - and I see much hysteria on the mass media - but I don't see it on this thread. But a pandemic is something that's worthy of our notice, and worthy of intelligent discussion, which is what this thread is.


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## SwissMiss

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> ….1/2 million deaths per year in the US from cigarette smoking. That's 1,369 deaths PER DAY, yet people don't strip stores of TP for that....I question things and try putting things in perspective.


Italy had 475 deaths due to COVID-19 in the last 24 hrs. 

Population of Italy ~ 59 million, US population ~ 328 million. 
If we normalize the population of the US to the size of Italy and reduce proportionally the number of deaths per day due to smoking (assuming a death rate/capita) we end up with 249... Compare that to the current 475.

For me, that puts things in perspective :shrug:


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## RegalCharm

Spanish Rider said:


> It is true. One study found 30% of patients had lost 20-30% of their lung capacity, with ground-glasss opacities seen on CT scan (https://www.sciencealert.com/even-t...ona-can-be-left-gasping-for-breath-afterwards). Doctors in Spain are seeing the same..


This is a quote about what the Spanish Flu did to people in the U.S. 
"The effect of the influenza epidemic was so severe that the average life span in the US was depressed by 10 years.


----------



## tinyliny

Acadianartist said:


> Good for you! I'm not in a position to do this right now, as DH is self-employed and will likely lose money, but one thing I am doing is paying people ahead of time for services I would use anyway. Here's my list:
> 
> - farrier
> - riding lessons for DD
> - restaurant gift cards
> - credit towards future purchases by a friend of mine who makes all sorts of things from earrings to custom T-shirts
> 
> By paying these people now for the next month or two of services, we can help them pay the rent and buy necessities until their businesses can re-open. Horses at my daughter's lesson barn still need to be fed even if they're temporarily closed to the public!





As long as you understand that they may not be able to pay all that back AND make a living wage when the dust settles. Maybe ask them to repay it at 50% value? 



or give your 'help' their Christmas bonuses NOW!????


----------



## SueC

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> "All the things you bring up are important, but they are not happening all at the same time."
> All of things I mentioned are happening every day, just like Corona or any other virus.


The first half of your sentence was fair, but at present, equating COVID-19 with "any other virus" is not. Yes, there are more serious infectious diseases, but this new virus is causing serious problems at the moment, and will do until either a vaccine is developed, or population immunity reaches significant levels. So, at the moment, COVID-19 is a lot more of a concern worldwide than the more established cold and flu type viruses.





> I'm trying to give a perpective.


The impression I am getting is that you're coming on this thread to propagate your own (objectively very limited) point of view on the matter, and that you're not really participating in the sense of a two-way street - in the sense that you think you can learn from anyone else on this thread. There are, in fact, plenty of objectively highly qualified people on this thread that you could learn from, if you were so inclined. There are also plenty of people who aren't professionally qualified and / or involved in the sciences here, who are self-educating, intelligent folk with a lot of commonsense, whom there is plenty you can learn from. I'm very well qualified academically in the sciences, for what it's worth, and spent over 20 years of my life in science research and science education - and I am following this thread with great interest, and learning new things from it every day. I value the opinions and insights of the vast majority of the people participating in this thread, and to engage with them makes me think, and makes me empathise.

Here's a pertinent concept for everyone to think about, its called the Dunning-Kruger effect. I think about this all the time - because all of us need to self-critique:




> 1/2 million deaths per year in the US from cigarette smoking. That's 1,369 deaths PER DAY, yet people don't strip stores of TP for that.


While I've not seen anyone on this thread condoning people hoarding toilet paper - quite the opposite, in fact - I do have to ask: Do you know the difference between a lifestyle disease and an infectious illness? Because if you do, then this is a wilfully disingenuous comparison. And if you don't, then perhaps educate yourself on the difference between the two, before you attempt to educate other people on this thread.




> Yes, as time goes on we'll hear of more cases, more deaths. It makes for great media attention.


Nobody here is condoning the media hysteria, so perhaps you are preaching to the wrong people.




> Is isolation from other people and hunkering down in your self sufficient house the answer?


Was that comment about self-sufficient housing meant to be a dig at my husband and me, in consequence of this post I made, on living in a self-sufficient house? https://www.horseforum.com/general-...proaches-around-812919/page13/#post1970846571

Or maybe at @loosie, who aspires to be off-grid, or @Dreamcatcher Arabians, who owns a generator, or any of the other folk here who are interested in greater self-sufficiency for a whole number of very sensible reasons, which do not include "hunkering down in your self-sufficient house" during a pandemic like a Doomsday Prepper? Because if that was your intention, then you clearly didn't read and take in what was being posted, and linked to, about the many benefits of increased self-sufficiency, and independence from centralised supplies. This, by the way, is something I've been writing about for over a decade now in the Australian independent press.

Or maybe you're taking a potshot at Doomsday Preppers here? (Know many?)




> Home grocery deliveries that you get in a hazmat suit after you spray things with Lysol?


Again - I don't think anyone here condones that kind of hysteria - so perhaps you've got the wrong audience here.




> I question things and try putting things in perspective.


Questioning things and putting them in perspective is a good thing. But from what I can see, you're not doing that very effectively, and you're alienating many of the folk posting here.

Questioning things includes being prepared to modify your own perspective in the face of significant evidence to the contrary - and attending to any gaps in your own understanding.

If you post again in this thread, it would be nice to see you actually engaging with someone constructively, and giving the impression that you've learnt something by participating here.


----------



## loosie

SueC said:


> it's good to be reminded that the average person should take steps to address other health issues that are more likely to kill them or incapacitate them than COVID-19. I agree that it would be a good thing if people in general were as hysterical about avoiding junk food as they are about getting COVID-19. It would eliminate about 70% of what is sold on our local supermarket shelves, and reduce a lot of stress on our environment as well, while making the population far healthier.


Oh HEAR HEAR!!!  

Am I allowed to copy & paste that(anonymously) to FB?? You might see THAT go viral...


----------



## SueC

You can quote whatever you wish, with or without attribution, from a public space! 

House settlement (/backup battery) vibes continuing to come your way! :winetime:


----------



## loosie

OMG Sue!!! I'm only half way thru that Dunning-Kruger vid but 'I wore the juice'!?!? How hilarious is that?? I'm definitely sharing that on my FB page! 

I thought it silly enough, a local happening of... I think 40 years ago, where a bank robber went into a bank bare headed, put his balaclava on & then stood in the queue with a gun in his hand. He was apparently shocked when the cops arrived before he got to the counter, bolted, tripped on the step & fell on his face in front of the cops. Not sure if it was proven there were no drugs involved with that bloke tho!


----------



## Spanish Rider

@SueC , about the 30% of patients losing lung function: 

Data compilation until now has been very limited. There have been some localized single-center studies, but nation-wide registries in China, if they exist, have not been made available. And, reports coming out about the absolute lack of direction from the WHO is discussed in this opinion article, with the very apropos title _COVID-19 cacophony: is there any orchestra conductor?_:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30675-9/fulltext Basically, the international medical community has remained very close-lipped about treatment measures and prognoses. My first thought is that front-line specialists do not have time to write. My second thought is that treatment is a very fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants situation.

So, yes, we can assume that the data we have been given of 30% of patients losing lung function would be associated with more acute presentations in hospitalized patients. And, there is not way to put these data in the context of age, previous comorbities or viral load/exposure.

Ground glass opacities on CT scan are seen as a predecessor for lung cancer or in patients with interstitial disease/damage/scarring. Yes, lung function can be recovered to an extent with lung rehabilition, but this again depends on age, comorbidities and the extent of the lung damage.

About the WHO: the WHO is merely a means of communication, not a regulatory entity. They make recommendations on the data they have and can do little more. However, because updated data is incredibly important, especially in virology/epidemiology, they should be stepping up to the plate and promoting/maintaining international medical registries, especially in times of crisis. There are countries who will shy away from sharing their data. These registries are person-anonymous, but not hospital/region/country anonymous. Perhaps these data should not be made available to the public/press, except in the case of retrospectve studies, but doctors around the world NEED UPDATED INFORMATION NOW to tether this thing.

Today's review of the latest literature has turned up just an Italian article (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2005492?query=featured_home) stating the following:

"The truth is rather grim. Though Italy’s health system is highly regarded and has 3.2 hospital beds per 1000 people (as compared with 2.8 in the United States), it has been impossible to meet the needs of so many critically ill patients simultaneously. Elective surgeries have been cancelled, semielective procedures postponed, and operating rooms turned into makeshift ICUs. With all beds occupied, corridors and administrative areas are lined with patients, some of them receiving noninvasive ventilation." 

"Contributing to the resource scarcity is the prolonged intubation many of these patients require as they recover from pneumonia — often 15 to 20 days of mechanical ventilation, with several hours spent in the prone position and then, typically, a very slow weaning."


So, again, the feeling that I take away from this is what is important here is not the death rate. It is the massive amount of care being required by acute patients, seniors, those with pathologies and those exposed to high viral loads. And, on a more personal note, the desolation in knowing that these patients are dying alone, without having seen their families for days, and completely lucid.


----------



## Spanish Rider

On a very positive note, parents in quarantine around Spain have been organizing activities for their kids on their balconies. I have see videos of people playing Bingo, yelling numbers out to each other, and children playing "I Spy with my Little Eye…" But my favorite has to be the video below, of a police officer from southern Spain playing a children's song and dancing in front of an apartment complex.

Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=57&v=r5X7bipzvt8&feature=emb_title


----------



## SueC

RegalCharm said:


> This is a quote about what the Spanish Flu did to people in the U.S.
> "The effect of the influenza epidemic was so severe that the average life span in the US was depressed by 10 years.


Can you tell us where that's from, @RegalCharm? 

@Spanish Rider, thanks a million for your informative posts.  How is everyone at your house?


----------



## Captain Evil

Spanish Rider said:


> On a very positive note, parents in quarantine around Spain have been organizing activities for their kids on their balconies. I have see videos of people playing Bingo, yelling numbers out to each other, and children playing "I Spy with my Little Eye…" But my favorite has to be the video below, of a police officer from southern Spain playing a children's song and dancing in front of an apartment complex.
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=57&v=r5X7bipzvt8&feature=emb_title


Again, where is the "love" button! Thanks for this!


----------



## RegalCharm

SueC said:


> Can you tell us where that's from, @RegalCharm?
> 
> 
> @Spanish Rider, thanks a million for your informative posts.  How is everyone at your house?


Go back a few pages @SueC the link is there. Stanford. Edu something.

here you go

https://virus.stanford.edu/uda/


----------



## Spanish Rider

Forgot to mention that ONLY ONE PERSON is now allowed to travel in a vehicle, unless the other person/persons are minors.


@SueC , thanks for asking. After 8 days at home, our anxiety rate of having the virus is going down. However, Nico has scheduled lab work tomorrow, ordered by the nephrologist, and a definitive diagnostic CT scan scheduled for the 26th. I have been calling the hospital, but no answer. I think we might skip the lab work (which can always be done urgently, if necessary), but I really think the CT scan is necessary in case there is a mass. He has lost another 2 kilos, for a total of a 9-kilo weightloss. At nearly 2 meters and already thin, that's a lot.

Tough times all around.


P.S. Assuming that we will not be able to travel to the States this summer, I am also looking to place a seed order for my 'victory garden'. I'm actually kind of excited! :smile:


----------



## Spanish Rider

Simply impressive.


----------



## egrogan

@*Spanish Rider* , positive thoughts that Nico is able to get the testing he needs and receive some answers!

For your seed-shopping pleasure (are we allowed to say "seed porn" on here?!? :rofl I'd highly recommend spending some time on the Baker Creek Seed Company catalog site: https://www.rareseeds.com/ I've had fabulous luck with anything of theirs that I've purchased, and I love finding unusual varieties of things we like to eat anyway.

Another fun catalog is High Mowing Organic Seeds, not too far up the road from us here in Vermont. They grow all their seed stock in the state and feed a lot of local animals with the fruit and veg after they harvest the seeds.

If you want to PM your mailing address I'd be more than happy to ship you either of those glossy catalogs. You can sit down with one and read it like a book. And, could double as TP if needed eventually :hide:


----------



## Spanish Rider

Thank you, @egrogan ! But, I'm working on the assumption that international mail services are not working right now.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Still nothing compared to other areas but today we are up to 44 confirmed cases of CV19 and our first CV19 death. The flu is still our leading virus with 3256 hospitalizations and 67 deaths, but those tests are easy to come by and done routinely. One we get our Covid19 supply lines opened up, I think we're going to see a big jump.


----------



## RegalCharm

How are @Caledonian and @Foxhunter doing? How is your country doing?
@Spanish Rider I hope you can get the test you want done for you Son. The weight loss would be a concern . I hope he is eating ok and it not from worrying about the situation in Spain. .

Here all employees who are still working have to have their temperature taken when they show up for work and if you have a fever you are sent home.

My surgeon's office called yesterday to tell me appointment was cancelled for a follow up visit for the surgery I had last Sept. No problems here so that is ok and I can get an appointment later if I want to. 
@egrogan sounds like a booklet I might like as if the seeds grow in Vermont they should grow well in Ohio's climate. You mentioned using them as TP :rofl: As a kid there was the Sears and Roebucks catalog in the outhouse for reading and tearing pages out of. (BTDT). :rofl::rofl:


----------



## Spanish Rider

> As a kid there was the Sears and Roebucks catalog in the outhouse for reading and tearing pages out of. (BTDT).


Hey! I take offense to that comment! I used to be a Sears & Roebucks catalog operator!


----------



## Foxhunter

I'm fine, thanks for asking. 

There have been two cases on the Island. 

I was speaking to my cousin tonight. His business workers are all working from home. His offices are near Heathrow airport. H has to go into London proper a couple of times a week as he is a magistrate. He said he can no longer issue community service as a punishment but has to give house arrest instead. 

He also says that the city is like a ghost town. 

The youngest person to die in the U.K. was only 40 but he had underlying health issues - motor neurone disease so, in many ways a merciful release. 

Even in my small town there are few people around, only when walking the dogs on top of the Downs do things seem normal. 

My neighbour, Cassie, is self isolating as she has a heavy cold. She is sure that is all it is. 

The one thing that puzzles me is that Cass, a front line working nurse, has not been tested. Talk so that more testing kits are being made one tests for the virus, the other tests whether you have had it or not. 

As for me I am taking my horse herbs, a great booster of the immune system. Although designed for horses I have used them on all sorts of animals and found them very powerful so, I am taking a double dose twice a day. 

So far so good!


----------



## ACinATX

Seems like maybe people were right to hoard TP after all:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-digestive-symptoms-diarrhea-almost-half-of-patients/


----------



## Horsef

ACinATX said:


> Seems like maybe people were right to hoard TP after all:
> 
> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-digestive-symptoms-diarrhea-almost-half-of-patients/


We should all take our New Years resolutions about loosing weight back. Be careful what you wish for, I guess.


----------



## kiwigirl

I don't know how I feel about this virus situation. I don't follow the media at all and this horse forum is my only foray into social media and I stopped looking at this thread at about page five or twelve - early on anyway. Here in NZ we have the same issues, the grocery stores are now being cleaned out of every thing - panic buying is now rife. I have received emails about this thing from every profession that we deal with, to tells us how badly this thing is going to effect us. My daughters school is now giving daily emails on the situation. 



I don't want this to be offensive but the reality is that when I finally decided to go on line I was absolutely shocked by how low the death toll is! I was expecting hundreds and thousands dead based on the fear filled crap emails that I am receiving. I have got to say that I can't see how this virus is so bad that the fear of it should cause the world so much pain. People who may never contract this virus are going to lose their homes, people are going to lose their businesses, people are going to sink below the poverty line they will not be able to afford health care for anything! Financial fear and stress is an aid to physical ill health, people avoid this virus and end up on anti depressants instead - I'm just not sure if this is a win.



The impression I get from this is like a family having a bee fly into their house so they take to it with baseball bats and smash up their home and furniture and then say to each other when the bee has flown out a broken window, while standing amid the destruction of their home, whew that was lucky!


Also what if this is the new normal? What if we have entered the era of the new super bug? Brought about as more and more of humanity isolates itself from and reviles nature and relies on more and more heavily homogenized, purified and synthetic environments and food, creating poorer and poorer immunity but more and more resilient viruses and bacteria? What if this is the new flu season? Every year, shut everything down, here comes another one!


I don't know. Seeing the world fly into a panic, literally fighting to steal toilet paper for gods sake, people pushing to take the last meal out of someone else's hands is disgusting - people should be ashamed of themselves! Maybe we need to die. 



**** it! Tomorrow I'm going to go to town and panic buy chocolate.


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

kiwigirl said:


> I don't know how I feel about this virus situation. I don't follow the media at all and this horse forum is my only foray into social media and I stopped looking at this thread at about page five or twelve - early on anyway. Here in NZ we have the same issues, the grocery stores are now being cleaned out of every thing - panic buying is now rife. I have received emails about this thing from every profession that we deal with, to tells us how badly this thing is going to effect us. My daughters school is now giving daily emails on the situation.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want this to be offensive but the reality is that when I finally decided to go on line I was absolutely shocked by how low the death toll is! I was expecting hundreds and thousands dead based on the fear filled crap emails that I am receiving. I have got to say that I can't see how this virus is so bad that the fear of it should cause the world so much pain. People who may never contract this virus are going to lose their homes, people are going to lose their businesses, people are going to sink below the poverty line they will not be able to afford health care for anything! Financial fear and stress is an aid to physical ill health, people avoid this virus and end up on anti depressants instead - I'm just not sure if this is a win.
> 
> 
> 
> The impression I get from this is like a family having a bee fly into their house so they take to it with baseball bats and smash up their home and furniture and then say to each other when the bee has flown out a broken window, while standing amid the destruction of their home, whew that was lucky!
> 
> 
> Also what if this is the new normal? What if we have entered the era of the new super bug? Brought about as more and more of humanity isolates itself from and reviles nature and relies on more and more heavily homogenized, purified and synthetic environments and food, creating poorer and poorer immunity but more and more resilient viruses and bacteria? What if this is the new flu season? Every year, shut everything down, here comes another one!
> 
> 
> I don't know. Seeing the world fly into a panic, literally fighting to steal toilet paper for gods sake, people pushing to take the last meal out of someone else's hands is disgusting - people should be ashamed of themselves! Maybe we need to die.
> 
> 
> 
> **** it! Tomorrow I'm going to go to town and panic buy chocolate.


Careful Kiwi or you'll be eviscerated as I was. 
I tried comparing Corona to the common influenza (So far, the new coronavirus has led to more than 220,000 illnesses and more than 9,300 deaths worldwide. But that's nothing compared with the flu, also called influenza. In the U.S. alone, the flu has caused an estimated 36 million illnesses, 370,000 hospitalizations and 22,000 deaths this season, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).)
And also considering preventable death statistics from tobacco, alcohol, poor diet, car accidents, etc.
Yesterday we ate at a local restaurant for lunch, last customers as they were closing down as other restaurants have closed. I left a good tip for the married, one daughter 20s waitress.
Stopped by my CPAs office with all of our tax information. They actually had a drop box! So many questions I needed to ask which I had to do from the car via phone, watching him through window of his conference room. My documentation will be sprayed with Lysol, then stored for three days before they touch with gloves/mask.
We're living through crazy times Kiwi.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


----------



## RegalCharm

Spanish Rider said:


> Hey! I take offense to that comment! I used to be a Sears & Roebucks catalog operator!


And here I thought you were younger than me. :hide::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Heck who knows I might have talked to you once. LOL.....
S & R used to be the Walmart of the 50's. Saddles to houses could be ordered from them. 

Just kidding about the younger than me. I know you are. I will be 70 in a couple of months.


----------



## RegalCharm

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Stopped by my CPAs office with all of our tax information. They actually had a drop box! So many questions I needed to ask which I had to do from the car via phone, watching him through window of his conference room. My documentation will be sprayed with Lysol, then stored for three days before they touch with gloves/mask.
> We're living through crazy times Kiwi.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


I would be worried that Lysol would make your ink unreadable and then you will have to do all the forms over again.


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

RegalCharm said:


> I would be worried that Lysol would make your ink unreadable and then you will have to do all the forms over again.


Over 200 pages & 1099Rs. I hope not! 

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


----------



## Horsef

@kiwigirl the death toll is “low” because people tried to contain it. It would have been much higher by now, especially in China.

Netherlands is taking the approach you are suggesting. I guess we will have a test case to study when this is all over.

This is a very old and heavily debated topic in philosophy: how do you define “good”? Is it what is best for the society? I would hazard a guess that just euthanizing everyone over, let’s say, 60 would maximize our resources (one of the ideas put forward in Brave New World by Huxley - amazing book). But would people then be willing to work hard all their lives? Unlikely. Is it “good” to minimize suffering of each individual at the expense of people being able to hoard money? Maybe, but I have no idea what unintended consequences that might have - the collapse of communism comes to mind. Is it to maximize happiness? Let’s make 20% of the population extremely happy at the expense of everyone else. There is no right answer.

Some of Western values are being called out right now. We are prolonging life way beyond capacity in many ways. There aren’t enough people to take care of elderly. This virus is taking elderly out and at the same time it’s creating an economic catastrophe for everyone else. 

One very big issue is that it is a rare leader who would just let it play itself out without having serious consequences at next elections. Some of them might even have a problem with their conscience.

What we know at the moment about this virus is that it’s mainly taking out elderly. You could even say that these people are actually dying of old age. They have to die of something sooner or later. 

What we don’t really know is what kind of consequences it has on survivors. Until that has been ascertained, the prudent approach would be to try to drag it out until we find a treatment which reduces the symptoms. Or at least try to.

Also, viruses mutate fast. Will it mutate into something more dangerous quickly if it is allowed to run rampant? On the other hand, will building immunity to this virus reduce the harm of a future, more serious virus? We just don’t know.

All of these questions are very difficult to answer and our elected leaders have chosen to go with the approach which has been enshrined by their electorate - protect all members of the society, especially the frail ones. Letting them all die without at least attempting to help them could have some serious consequences for future social cohesion. People would (rightfully) think that they are on their own and adjust behavior accordingly. I do believe that we are on our own, but destroying the illusion for everyone would seriously disrupt the world as we know it.


(Off topic - a have a big issue with reporting elderly deaths under various illnesses. I mean, it’s basically a race which body part will fail first. Just put down “Old age” and be done with it. These are scare tactics. My grandma died at 90 and they count her as “Cardiac”. It’s just ridiculous)


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

Spanish Rider said:


> Hey! I take offense to that comment! I used to be a Sears & Roebucks catalog operator!


Dad (rip) worked at Sears after WWII until he retired in 1982. Grandad built a Sears home in 1930 in Philadelphia. Mom has a reprinted Sears 1914 catalog. The variety and prices were amazing. You could order morphine and syringe by mail.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## knightrider

From Horsef


> @kiwigirl the death toll is “low” because people tried to contain it. It would have been much higher by now, especially in China.
> 
> Netherlands is taking the approach you are suggesting. I guess we will have a test case to study when this is all over.
> 
> This is a very old and heavily debated topic in philosophy: how do you define “good”? Is it what is best for the society? I would hazard a guess that just euthanizing everyone over, let’s say, 60 would maximize our resources (one of the ideas put forward in Brave New World by Huxley - amazing book). But would people then be willing to work hard all their lives? Unlikely. Is it “good” to minimize suffering of each individual at the expense of people being able to hoard money? Maybe, but I have no idea what unintended consequences that might have - the collapse of communism comes to mind. Is it to maximize happiness? Let’s make 20% of the population extremely happy at the expense of everyone else. There is no right answer.
> 
> Some of Western values are being called out right now. We are prolonging life way beyond capacity in many ways. There aren’t enough people to take care of elderly. This virus is taking elderly out and at the same time it’s creating an economic catastrophe for everyone else.
> 
> One very big issue is that it is a rare leader who would just let it play itself out without having serious consequences at next elections. Some of them might even have a problem with their conscience.
> 
> What we know at the moment about this virus is that it’s mainly taking out elderly. You could even say that these people are actually dying of old age. They have to die of something sooner or later.
> 
> What we don’t really know is what kind of consequences it has on survivors. Until that has been ascertained, the prudent approach would be to try to drag it out until we find a treatment which reduces the symptoms. Or at least try to.
> 
> Also, viruses mutate fast. Will it mutate into something more dangerous quickly if it is allowed to run rampant? On the other hand, will building immunity to this virus reduce the harm of a future, more serious virus? We just don’t know.
> 
> All of these questions are very difficult to answer and our elected leaders have chosen to go with the approach which has been enshrined by their electorate - protect all members of the society, especially the frail ones. Letting them all die without at least attempting to help them could have some serious consequences for future social cohesion. People would (rightfully) think that they are on their own and adjust behavior accordingly. I do believe that we are on our own, but destroying the illusion for everyone would seriously disrupt the world as we know it.


This is so thoughtful and well-written, and I really appreciate it.


----------



## Dressagegirl29

I hope the FDA approves an antiviral for the Coronavirus, soon. China has approved an antiviral for it, already. We need our lives back!


----------



## Spanish Rider

@Horsef , you are spot on. But we Europeans are witnessing things that many would not believe.

Because no one has time to write, I am receiving audio messages from physicians in Madrid.

The virus has mutated in Europe and is not the same as in Asia. The hospitals in Madrid are receiving and intubating younger and younger patients. Patients over the age of 65 are being denied care and sent home to die. Patients with less probability of survival are being disconnected in order to connect those with a higher probability.

Personally, I don't think we can make a blanket statement about someone's contribution to the economy or society based merely on age. We forget that our older colleagues in their 50s and 60s are experts in their professions. We are at risk of losing eminent physicians, judges, authors and politicians. Not to mention the entire generation that was born during/after WWII: probably the hardest working generation currently alive because they grew up in times of hardship, often missing a father, and did not shy away from hard work. After seeing videos of selfishly thoughless kids on spring break down in Florida, I know where my allegiance lies.


----------



## RegalCharm

Dressagegirl29 said:


> I hope the FDA approves an antiviral for the Coronavirus, soon. China has approved an antiviral for it, already. We need our lives back!


https://www.foxnews.com/science/remdesivir-what-to-know-about-potential-coronavirus-treatment

"Other research into remdesivir includes two clinical trials in China’s Hubei province, Gilead Sciences said. Results from the studies in China are expected in April."

separate from the above that was in the news from China was that people with type A blood had a higher infection rate than people with type O blood. So I say take everything with a grain of salt at this time.


----------



## RegalCharm

Spanish Rider said:


> @Horsef , you are spot on. But we Europeans are witnessing things that many would not believe.
> 
> Because no one has time to write, I am receiving audio messages from physicians in Madrid.
> 
> The virus has mutated in Europe and is not the same as in Asia. The hospitals in Madrid are receiving and intubating younger and younger patients. Patients over the age of 65 are being denied care and sent home to die. Patients with less probability of survival are being disconnected in order to connect those with a higher probability.
> 
> Personally, I don't think we can make a blanket statement about someone's contribution to the economy or society based merely on age. We forget that our older colleagues in their 50s and 60s are experts in their professions. We are at risk of losing eminent physicians, judges, authors and politicians. Not to mention the entire generation that was born during/after WWII: probably the hardest working generation currently alive because they grew up in times of hardship, often missing a father, and did not shy away from hard work. After seeing videos of selfishly thoughless kids on spring break down in Florida, I know where my allegiance lies.


 @Spanish Rider very good post. Same with @Horsef.

Who has seen the movie "Logan's Run" ? Future where once you reach a certain age you are eliminated. You live in doom covered cities and Know nothing about the outside world. you have never seen a tree, animals etc.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> @Horsef , you are spot on. But we Europeans are witnessing things that many would not believe.
> 
> Because no one has time to write, I am receiving audio messages from physicians in Madrid.
> 
> The virus has mutated in Europe and is not the same as in Asia. The hospitals in Madrid are receiving and intubating younger and younger patients. Patients over the age of 65 are being denied care and sent home to die. Patients with less probability of survival are being disconnected in order to connect those with a higher probability.
> 
> Personally, I don't think we can make a blanket statement about someone's contribution to the economy or society based merely on age. We forget that our older colleagues in their 50s and 60s are experts in their professions. We are at risk of losing eminent physicians, judges, authors and politicians. Not to mention the entire generation that was born during/after WWII: probably the hardest working generation currently alive because they grew up in times of hardship, often missing a father, and did not shy away from hard work. After seeing videos of selfishly thoughless kids on spring break down in Florida, I know where my allegiance lies.


I wouldn’t even dare suggest that I have the correct answers to these questions. Those questions were hotly debated by greatest minds, from Socrates onwards and they still don’t have definitive or even generally accepted answers. I can’t really choose a side objectively because my mum is very unlikely to make it if she caught it. Me either.

One way to end the discussion is to reduce resources and we are seeing the results at the moment - medical professionals have had their hand forced to choose younger people. As far as I know, these protocols are nothing new and have been in place for a very long time. The fact that they aren’t talked about in polite company is just a question of people not really wanting to face hard realities. Also, is a thirty eight year old stoner moocher worth more than a sixty year old doctor? I don’t know - those are some very difficult decisions to be asking doctors to make - so they made the protocols.

Those mutations are scary and hopefully we get a dues-ex-machina soon. On the other hand, if we don’t reduce our numbers, Mother Nature will do it for us, quite spectacularly.

We have just breached 100 cases today so we will be catching up with you in a hot minute. Our take off is projected for the weekend. Good news around here is that we halved ordinary flu cases since last week so maybe our measures are working (or the flu season ended on its own :/ )


----------



## Horsef

RegalCharm said:


> @Spanish Rider very good post. Same with @Horsef.
> 
> Who has seen the movie "Logan's Run" ? Future where once you reach a certain age you are eliminated. You live in doom covered cities and Know nothing about the outside world. you have never seen a tree, animals etc.


I haven’t seen that movie, I’ll make sure to watch it. If you haven’t read Brave New World by Huxley I would strongly recommend it. As far as I know, he was first to explore that idea and many other philosophical ideas through fiction. Extremely good book. And it is becoming more and more relevant even though it was written in 1931. He used a lot of reductio ad absurdum but he managed to keep it from sinking into absurd rather elegantly.


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## loosie

Sometimes you gotta laugh...


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## ApuetsoT

A few more snippets on why this is not comparable to the flu:


- We have never successfully made a vaccine for a coronavirus
- Immunity against coronaviruses does not appear to be long-lived in humans, based on what we've seen from endemic coronaviruses and SARS/MERS
- COVID19, based on what we know of SARS/MERS, may be neuroinvasive, meaning it will attack the nervous system
- It's a new virus and mutates often. It hasn't reached the stable(ish) state like the flu has, as generally viruses will mutate toward being less deadly over time. Until that happens, there's the chance it mutates in isolated areas to be more deadly



https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00798-8
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32104915
https://bedford.io/blog/ncov-cryptic-transmission/


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## Celeste

Here in Georgia, we are up to 270 cases and 10 deaths. There were only 3 deaths reported yesterday, and way less than 200 cases. 

The schools, colleges, and major universities are closed. As a professor, I am scrambling to put my courses online so the students can finish the semester that they are half way through. 

Social distancing gets kind of lonesome. I miss the interactions with my students. My own adult kids won't come near me because I am a high risk patient if I were to get it. But we do what we must.

On a good note, teleworking cuts out my commute and allows me time to actually ride my horse a bit.


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## Aprilswissmiss

I just had to post what I saw on a roofer's business sign today: "Free toilet paper with new roof!"

That and my coworker saying "I found out my mom has been bartering Clorox for the neighbor's toilet paper" :rofl:


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## Aprilswissmiss

Celeste said:


> The schools, colleges, and major universities are closed. As a professor, I am scrambling to put my courses online so the students can finish the semester that they are half way through.


As a current college student, I have to give a quick appreciative shout-out to all the professors doing their best to transition to online courses in less than two weeks. My university has completely switched over to online classes for the rest of the semester as well, which is particularly difficult in my biology classes with elaborate labs. Us students might be groaning about this whole online classes thing, but in reality, we recognize the professors are struggling right alongside with us and are putting themselves through so much for the sake of our education. Thank you!


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## Change

Both my 34 year old son and I are considered high risk. I started working from home on Tuesday. So far, though, it seems I'm working longer hours and not realized additional pony time. And rain predicted for the weekend again. 

Fast food restaurants are drive through only. TSC seems to be business as usual. We've only had 10 cases in this county so far. I'm not scared, but I'm also minimizing risks.


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## kewpalace

The CA Governor issued a statewide stay at home order tonight. The order can be found here: https://covid19.ca.gov/img/N-33-20.pdf. Everyone except those who work for essential services are ordered to stay home. Courts are part of the defined essential services. So guess who’s going to work tomorrow....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Everything here has pretty well been shut down, court services, restaurants, gyms, bars, anyplace people could hang. Churches have gone on line, as have the universities, and I expect the schools will soon follow. Everything is shut down until 4/5/2020 and then things will be re-evaluated. We don't have ORDERED stay at home guidelines, but highly suggested. Social distancing = 6 ft between each person at a gathering but not to exceed 10 people. Movie theatres and bowling alleys closed, all sports venues closed, concerts and theater as well as cinemas are closed. 

Been nice if we'd been given the details, FULL details, early on instead of just some pap about young folks are fine, they won't get it and if they do it's no big deal, etc etc. I suspect we're still seeing the tip of the iceberg. There's a whole lot of stuff that we're not being made privy to and it's anxiety provoking to say the least. Every day another shoe drops.

Forgot to mention, with all these stay at home and call your doctor or do a virtual visit thing, their lines are getting inundated. Hubby has been asked to submit to be credentialed as a virtual provider as well as his clinic experiences.


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## Cleanwithpure

No one leaves the US no one can enter US if they've been out of US during this covid-19 out break. The fact is they need to shut down all flights from out of the US.


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## Cleanwithpure

Yeah, crazy that - I was using soap & exercising hygeine practices well before it became fashionable - not like me to be ahead of fashion!


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## Spanish Rider

> I'm not scared, but I'm also minimizing risks.


Basically, that's what it's all about, and it's all any of us can do.

I'm glad to hear more of you, like @Change and @Celeste , are able to work from home.
@Horsef , you are correct. Those protocols have always existed, written or otherwise, but they have never been implemented on such a scale. And they do take a toll on healthcare workers.





Today's Ministry of Health update: 

18,000 known cases; 1000 in ICU; 767 deaths; 1107 cured

The number of cases has increased by 25% in 24h, so we will be witnessing an exponential growth in deaths in the next 1-2 weeks.

We are 6 days behind Italy.

*Only 33% of cases are over the age of 65.*

Only 29% of deaths are among women.

The army is disinfecting assisted living facilities and nursing homes.


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## ACinATX

This talk about mutations is interesting. We think the virus doesn't confer long-term immunity, but no doubt it confers at least short-term immunity. If a person were feeling selfish, might it make sense for them to try to become infected now, while the hospitals are not yet full, and before the virus possibly mutates to something more deadly?

It would obviously be selfish because right now governments are trying to flatten the curve, and if lots of people did this it would have the opposite effect. But, as a thought experiment, I find it interesting.


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## loosie

Ash Grunwald - awesome Aussie muso; look him up if you like blues - posted that as he had to come home early from a Euro tour & is now out of work for forseeable months, he is going to be giving Skype guitar & vocal lessons to people. Something many could probably do, whether music or otherwise. 

My bro is a fitness instructor with his own business & been losing clients for the last couple of weeks. The last of them cancelled on him this morning, and as our gov't have only 'bailed out' airlines & other big business(who have also stood down their employees without pay), he & millions of others are out of work without money. Hoping he might be able to get a Skype fitness club going...

And restaurants & the likes (my bro's partner was also casually employed at a restaurant so they're both skint)... wouldn't it be great if they could stay in business, but do 'meals on wheels' instead?? I put that idea out there on FB & heard that some are already. Heard about one pub who's using the drive through bottle shop for meals - parma & chips on the go!


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## mslady254

Spanish Rider said:


> The virus has mutated in Europe and is not the same as in Asia. The hospitals in Madrid are receiving and intubating younger and younger patients. Patients over the age of 65 are being denied care and sent home to die. Patients with less probability of survival are being disconnected in order to connect those with a higher probability.


That's a horrible reality. FACTS like this make it even more mind-boggling to me to know that, unfortunately, some people s.t.i.l.l. are denying the serverity and magnitude of this pandemic by comparing it to other causes of death via non transmissible means,etc. and, completely selfishly refusing to practice social distancing and flatly insisting that they will not make changes to their lifestyle for the good of all . 

Even IF the measures recommended are an over-reaction (they are probably an under-reaction), it is far better to have over-reacted unneccesariy than to have under-reacted and caused suffering and death that could have been avoided. 

I'm telling my grown children not to panic, not to hoard, but do buy enough supplies to last at least a couple of weeks, and practice social distancing as best they can. 

Thanks to all for the continuing updates. 

Stay safe, stay calm, stay in touch.


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## loosie

...And haven't looked at this thread or anything about the state of affairs for last day, needed a break. But just read the last few posts. ACinTX, those 'selfish people' could have a field day over here... 

Schools yet to close, because hey, kids aren't really at risk but we can't have them off school, infecting grand parents or running rampant on the streets, or missing out on vital education(no mention about the teachers & staff at risk with snotty kids, or the teachers who ARE also grandparents...) 

People have largely been told to go about their normal business where possible, except just keep 1.5m away and wash hands. 

No bailouts for any 'small fry' or mortgages on hold or anything, only bailouts for the likes of Qantas & other big business, so the vast majority if possible are still going off to work out of necessity. My husband was on a job of 800 but they've been sacking people to get numbers down below the stipulated 500... 

And shops, restaurants etc fine so long as short visits, because you need to be up close for over 15 minutes, or in a room with an infected for over 2 hours to be at risk - yep, they're still saying that!


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## gottatrot

Here is a very great and factual link about the coronavirus. I found it very interesting. 

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus

Something it points out is that we do not have information that can help us understand the mortality rate of the disease yet. 
Looking at the case fatality rate, it is something that changes and is a fluid fact.


> We see that in the earliest stages of the outbreak the CFR was much higher: 17.3% across China as a whole (in yellow) and greater than 20% in the centre of the outbreak, in Wuhan (in blue).
> 
> In the weeks that followed, the CFR declined. The WHO reports that “the standard of care has evolved over the course of the outbreak”. The CFR fell to 0.7% for patients with the onset of symptoms after February 1st.
> 
> We also see that the CFR was different in different locations. By 1st February the CFR in Wuhan was still 5.8% while it was 0.7% across the rest of China.


They also point out that this virus can take a long time to die from, so we can't know about people who are still going to die, which will probably increase as time goes on.


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## AuG

It has not really hit where I am yet. Over 8500 people tested for 64 positive. The aim as far as I understood was not stopping the virus, but slowing the spread. I think our state is doing ok so far, especially when so many of the population (including health care workers) are ignoring the advice coming from the government and many more promoting civil unrest online. I am in the high risk category, school holidays always increases my risk of illness tenfold, so I can really understand why they are keeping the schools open at this stage. Close them too early and it would speed up the spread. In truth, I am not politically minded, nor all that confident in the medical system, having spent many years in their care. I think it is important we try to stay on the same page listening to leaders rather than fighting their advice and taking things out of context in panic stricken states of mind.

I went to do my normal weekly shop last night. Besides the toilet roll and soap/sanitizer aisle, all else was available, albeit some low stock. Fresh food and cooking ingredients were plentiful. Ready made meals and pasta were limited. I live out of the city so I tend to do a big shop every few weeks (200km round trip to get to coles). I got everything I normally would with no problem, not even a line at the check out. People on the coast seemed very calm and orderly. I did not see any of the violence or hoarding that the tv news is showing. Everything seemed to be business as normal with a few more signs about hygiene. I was pleasantly surprised and it did feed the sense of calm in me, having been prepared for long periods of isolation before this hit. I have never been so thankful to live where I do.


I cannot imagine what it is like overseas until it actually gets here. My prayers are with you guys heavily affected at this time. All I can hope for my elderly neighbours is that the vaccine is approved before that happens. Admittedly, some have confessed they would rather go out quick than rot in a nursing home with stroke or dementia. People don't move to this town to cheat death, they come here to welcome it.


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## Spanish Rider

I am not a virologist, so the behaviour of viruses over time is something that escapes me. However, I do know that novel viruses tend to mutate in the beginning. This would explain differences in how the virus has affected populations differently in different areas until now.




> In the weeks that followed, the CFR declined. The WHO reports that “the standard of care has evolved over the course of the outbreak”. The CFR fell to 0.7% for patients with the onset of symptoms after February 1st.


This is inspirational. Results can be improved over time, but the ability to do so requires an extreme approach.


To get to that point of a 'flattened' curve, several step were taken in China that have not yet been taken here in Spain:

1) Wuhan was completely blocked off. People are calling for this to happen in Madrid.

2) Containment facilities were built in one week for milder cases and asymptomatic positives. Several hotels in Madrid have been donated for use in this crisis, and I know that at least one is now functioning with more than 300 rooms. That was done in a matter of 3-4 days.

3) China has the manufacturing power of no other country on Earth. They were able to quickly respond with greater production of medical materials. Here, there are not enough respirators, while doctors and nurses are working with trash bags and homemade surgical masks in some hospitals because they do not have enough PPE for such an event. We don't have the same manufacturing prowess.

4) China does not have the same regard for civil liberties that we have in Western societies, so here politicians have had to get involved, make decisions and pass laws. That has taken time. Meanwhile, there are people that scoff at isolation and citizens want the military to enforce State of Alarm isolation laws. 

5) The Chinese say they have 'defeated' the virus, but it is still active. After 3 months, people are still in isolation in their homes, and new infections are now manageable with the new resources and supply chains they have created. Here in Europe, we are a long way from that point.


So, I truly hope that the US and other areas of the world are taking note and getting prepared. Factories need to be converted to manufacture the medical supplies needed. NOW. I am sure many of you have seen Cuomo's speech in which the projected need for respirators is 30,000, yet they only have 5000-6000. That is the kind of calculations that were not made here in time, and that need has still not been met.


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## SilverMaple

Worries from the medical community in the US state that their biggest issue right now is we're already running perilously low on the necessary paralytic drugs to put people on ventilators. Without those drugs, even the ventilators they do have are worthless.


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## AnitaAnne

Speaking strictly r/t the available resources, Nurses are already in short supply and prior to the onset of the current coronavirus, we already had staffing shortages. 

Every year, hospitals depend on an influx of new graduates to fill vacancies. Every year, new grads quit nursing because of the reality of the work is overwhelming to them once they are on their own off orientation. 

This year, with schools going online and clinical rotations stopped, I am concerned that a reduced number of new grads will even apply, and will leave sooner. They will seek out the higher paid positions, and the staff nurse positions will be left unfilled. 


We currently are offered plenty of overtime opportunities, where normally this time of the year overtime is severely restricted by managers. 


What happens when the nursing staff becomes sick? Where will they go?


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## Spanish Rider

EDITING...

While I was writing this, the hospital called to cancel my son's CT scan for the 26th.


@SilverMaple , excellent point about the paralytics. I had no idea.


@AnitaAnne , when this is over, there needs to be a top-to-bottom assessment of our healthcare systems (and I mean WAY up top, including the WHO, etc). I am assuming that doctors in the US are well paid, but in other countries they are not, and nurses all over are underpaid for their essential care. As a society, we need to straighten out our priorities, and I like the initiatives I had heard elsewhere (was it New York?) offering free education to top students who chose to study the health sciences if the student then practiced for 5 years or so at public clinics. Sort of like ROTC for the armed services, but for doctors and nurses.


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## AnitaAnne

To address the issue of social distancing from another perspective, one has to realize that the decreased traffic will mean (hopefully) reduced accidents which in turn will mean reduced demands on all levels of medical staff. 

No MVC would reduce the need for the EMTs, the ED staff, the surgery staff, the floor staff, the ICU staff, etc. Even the admissions and social service staff needs would be reduced. 

I am an orthopedic nurse, and I cannot over emphasize the number of elderly that fall and break bones (usually hips but not exclusively) because of going to church, going out to eat, fixing big meals for family visits, etc. 

By practicing social distancing, most of these accidental falls could be eliminated, keeping the elderly out of the hospitals and reducing their risk of a number of complications. 


The nursing homes are all closed to visitors; yet the elderly still are being placed there for rehab after falls. This puts them at greater risk. 


Everyone please just stay home for a while. Enjoy your family time together. Visit relatives and friends virtually. By doing this we all can conserve resources and save lives. Thank you.


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## Spanish Rider

Excellent, practical points, @AnitaAnne.


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## AnitaAnne

Spanish Rider said:


> EDITING...
> 
> While I was writing this, the hospital called to cancel my son's CT scan for the 26th.
> 
> 
> .


Sorry this is delayed, hopefully will have available soon. 

The demands on equipment are also intensified, as depending on the patient and equipment used, after use has to be completely disassembled and sanitized. Thus reduced availability of equipment and staff involved.


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## Spanish Rider

@AnitaAnne , I assumed it was coming, and this actually gives us a sense of relief. He is fine, not in an emergency situation, and if he does have a tumor it is most likely benign and just messing with his adrenal function.


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## SilverMaple

A friend in emergency medicine said her ER shift the other night had 2 people in. One broken arm, one potential heart attack. That's it. Normally they see 20 - 40 people per shift. She's wondering where the people with abdominal pain, premature pregnancy contractions, GI bleeds, drug overdoses, severe migraines, children with ear infections, etc. are all hiding and how many will worsen dangerously if the patients are too afraid to seek care?


----------



## AnitaAnne

SilverMaple said:


> A friend in emergency medicine said her ER shift the other night had 2 people in. One broken arm, one potential heart attack. That's it. Normally they see 20 - 40 people per shift. She's wondering where the people with abdominal pain, premature pregnancy contractions, GI bleeds, drug overdoses, severe migraines, children with ear infections, etc. are all hiding and how many will worsen dangerously if the patients are too afraid to seek care?


Maybe they are just all staying home and not getting into emergency situations. Thinking positively


----------



## Caledonian

I’m doing okay, thanks for asking @*RegalCharm* . I think the country is doing as well as can be expected given the circumstances; time will tell though.


As of today, Scotland has 322 cases and 6 deaths, the UK 2692 cases and 144 deaths. 

There’s 23 in my area. The largest number is in Glasgow, while the smaller islands off the west coast and north are still free of the virus. Except for the Shetland islands, which have a high number of cases.

Our schools are now closed and exams cancelled. They probably won’t open again until mid-August when students should return from their summer holidays. Children of key workers or vulnerable children will still attend.

The Government will cover the majority of employees’ wages to protect their jobs. 

Those off sick will get Sick Leave pay from the first day.

Restaurants, clubs and other similar venues have been told to close as the Government didn’t believe that people, especially the young, were taking the virus seriously. 

Supermarkets are hiring thousands of permanent and temporary staff to help with demand.


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## avjudge

Caledonian said:


> . . . Our schools are now closed and exams cancelled. They probably won’t open again until mid-August when students should return from their summer holidays. . .


I was just reading an article yesterday saying that with good practicing of social distancing, some projections show cases trailing off into the summer, but then roaring back in the fall - as was seen with the 1918 flu - and I was wondering if the above, combined with complacency, is exactly why this would happen. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/how-we-beat-coronavirus/608389/

(The argument in the article is that we need to use the summer lull to build up the testing/tracing/medical infrastructure to be ready for the virus's return. Raise your hand if you're optimistic this will happen.)


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## SilverMaple

... I'm seeing more and more reports of hospitals and clinics without any sort of personal protection equipment available for staff. One surgical mask per person, to be used every day for the foreseeable future is common. Several area nursing homes are out of gloves and masks entirely. Our local clinic has one box of masks left for all of their doctors and nurses, and they aren't the N95 masks, just the plain disposable surgical masks that are supposed to be discarded after each patient/procedure. This is a catastrophe in the making as the Covid-19 patients have barely begun to trickle in to many areas of the country. What happens in a week or two when waves of the sick start descending on hospitals who have no way to protect their doctors, nurses, and staff? Either those people will refuse to work (as is their right) or they will care for patients with no gloves, masks, gowns, or shields and become sick themselves, then there will be no one to care for those who need it. 

I am so worried for friends and family who work in healthcare. This is unacceptable in America, the government knew this was coming for months, and did NOTHING! We need to get that supply chain up and running domestically and not depend on China for our supplies, because when this comes back next winter (as most experts say it will) we can't have this happening again.


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## rambo99

We are staying home stocked up on all needed items. Haven't been off property for going on a week Tuesday.

Couldn't pay me to go to any hospital,clinic for anything. I cut my finger needed stitches,not happening,just put a bandage on it an called it good. 

Went from 60 cases of covid-19 to 77 and now up to 115. Not in our county still way South of here. 

Thanks but I'll just stay home even if it means literally months. In need of nothing for horses, dog or us.


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## Horsef

ACinATX said:


> This talk about mutations is interesting. We think the virus doesn't confer long-term immunity, but no doubt it confers at least short-term immunity. If a person were feeling selfish, might it make sense for them to try to become infected now, while the hospitals are not yet full, and before the virus possibly mutates to something more deadly?
> 
> It would obviously be selfish because right now governments are trying to flatten the curve, and if lots of people did this it would have the opposite effect. But, as a thought experiment, I find it interesting.


It would be the rational option - if we had all of the data. But we don’t. I think most people are aware of the lack of data and would be too afraid to try it. There is some research coming out of China indicating that the virus is getting less deadly. From what I gather, viruses often follow that trend. (As always, treat all information on internet with extreme caution)

It is an interesting thought experiment. I spent some time thinking about it as well. It opens up a whole bunch of questions about ethics, individual vs. the collective and how bad does it have to get for people to switch to “every man for himself” mode. What signifies the tipping point and how fast would people come to a consensus that this it?


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## SilverMaple

Evidence it can cause severe lung damage even in people who have recovered is one reason. Others is that there is still so much we don't know, and it's also had plenty of deaths from the 'young and healthy' camp, so that's another reason.


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## rambo99

Found this today so thought I'd share. Need to have a laugh, especially now with all the bad going on with covid-19.


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## Horsef

Anomalies: Germany and India.

Has anyone seen any discussion on why Germany has such a “low” death rate? The are very similar to Spain in number of cases (19k Germany vs 21k Spain) and the timeline seems to match as well but the have a much lower mortality rate (Germany 68 vs Spain 1093). This is a huge discrepancy and I am sure it’s raised a few eyebrows.

India: very low infection rate, 249 cases. I find it hard to believe that the virus wouldn’t have spread much faster in a very densely populated environment with a large population living without proper sanitation. The outbreak started right in the middle of their peak tourist season as well (November to March). I am not sure if they get a lot of Chinese tourists though.

Any ideas?


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## Horsef

SilverMaple said:


> Evidence it can cause severe lung damage even in people who have recovered is one reason. Others is that there is still so much we don't know, and it's also had plenty of deaths from the 'young and healthy' camp, so that's another reason.


Agreed. I wouldn’t disregard the primeval “ick” factor in this type of simulation either. Mind you, there is a well known phenomenon of “bug-chasers” in the gay cruising subculture - people who believe that they are certain to catch HIV and just want to get it over and done with. There is also a fetish component to it but it is unclear where one ends and the other begins. They aren’t particularly numerous, but they do exist and have been documented in scientific literature. I wouldn’t be surprised if there already are “Corona chasers” out there. As well as people deliberately spreading it (“Gift givers” they call it in the HIV bug chasing subculture) There are some serious outliers out there in the wild.


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## Acadianartist

Horsef said:


> Agreed. I wouldn’t disregard the primeval “ick” factor in this type of simulation either. Mind you, there is a well known phenomenon of “bug-chasers” in the gay cruising subculture - people who believe that they are certain to catch HIV and just want to get it over and done with. There is also a fetish component to it but it is unclear where one ends and the other begins. They aren’t particularly numerous, but they do exist and have been documented in scientific literature. I wouldn’t be surprised if there already are “Corona chasers” out there. As well as people deliberately spreading it (“Gift givers” they call it in the HIV bug chasing subculture) There are some serious outliers out there in the wild.


That's just... bizarre. And highly irresponsible. 

However, I admit to having a discussion with my son tonight about how it wouldn't be such a horrible thing if we all had it and were fighting it right now. I have been coughing, and his forehead is warm, though not quite feverish (after seeing him through cancer, I've become a really good judge of whether or not he has a fever just by touching his forehead), and has been feeling off. Neither one of us is terribly sick, but we are strong and even though he just had chemo last year, he has proven that he has a remarkable immune system. If we got it now, while we are in social isolation and are not giving it to others, assuming our symptoms remain mild, we could recover and then be immune. 

Because I do think there will be a second wave, and that it may be worse than the first. That's what the experts are saying.

On another note, I'm still reeling from the news that schools may not re-open here. I'm not sure what that means. We are only getting very enigmatic messages from the minister of Education that suggest they may send us instructions on how students will learn from home. I also have to continue to teach my university courses online. I am adopting a one-on-one approach to help them finish the term which means I am now teaching 50 courses to 50 students rather than one. So how I'm supposed to do this while teaching my kids from home is a mystery to me. But I'll get through it somehow. Some are in more dire straights than me. 

My husband is still going to work. He has a court appearance on Monday (he's a lawyer). However, he posted a sign on his firm door that says he is not open to the public. Anyone wishing to meet with him has to call or email. I wish he could stay home, but our justice system cannot shut down. People can say a lot of bad things about lawyers, but the law still has to be upheld, and people's rights still have to be protected. The sad part: he is seeing a big spike in people wanting to write or update their will.


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## Celeste

Aprilswissmiss said:


> As a current college student, I have to give a quick appreciative shout-out to all the professors doing their best to transition to online courses in less than two weeks. My university has completely switched over to online classes for the rest of the semester as well, which is particularly difficult in my biology classes with elaborate labs. Us students might be groaning about this whole online classes thing, but in reality, we recognize the professors are struggling right alongside with us and are putting themselves through so much for the sake of our education. Thank you!


Thanks for that. It is a lot of work. It is the only way that college in general can continue.


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## Aprilswissmiss

My parents today let me know that the local donut shop back at home is now doing a "take a roll, leave a roll" system for TP. Buy a dozen donuts, get a few free rolls. Donate a few rolls, get a few free donuts. Pretty cool system, wonder if it's working! At the very least, keeping the shop afloat when fewer people are going out.

Veterinary hospitals here are still considered an essential service, so my job is continuing. However, our government (either local or state, don't remember) announced that veterinary hospitals are only to see sick and emergency patients. We have now cancelled ALL surgeries that are not to correct life-threatening emergencies. That also means we are not technically allowed to give vaccines. Pretty crazy, especially for the poor people who have puppies in the middle of their booster series right now. What are we gonna do, tell everyone we're forcing them to let their vaccines go overdue so they can come back in a few months and restart the series for twice the cost? The vets, including ours, have decided that's ridiculous and will continue to give vaccines (only the ones that are due or overdue - no new series or ahead-of-schedule vaccines), but will strictly do so curb-side.

Besides, PetSmart is still staying open to do grooming, so we're already losing clients and revenue through the people whose grooming appointments we cancelled. Not to mention revenue lost in all the surgeries and wellness appointments we've already cancelled. We don't want to lose our core clients over a few vaccines.

Today was our first attempt at lessening our hours. Open from 8am to 12pm. Wow, what a joke! We ended up staying open until 6pm keeping up with emergencies. Whoops. Guess we're not closing any time soon.


----------



## tinyliny

God bless you for taking care of all the animals that need help. Seriously.


----------



## cbar

I admit to feeling a little claustrophobic over this. Things here are getting worse, but in no way as bad as Spain or Italy. However, I was just thinking about how there is nowhere to escape this - and it made me feel a little....panicky. 

I tend to practise a pretty isolated lifestyle anyway, but it is somehow different when you have to stay home. 

I am questioning the things I should be doing; I have very little contact with outside people as it is. 

I was chatting with a neighbor yesterday and mentioned something similar to what @Acadianartist said. That it would almost in some ways be better to have the virus and build an immunity to it. It almost seems inevitable that it will continue to spread. And I kind of thought that there were maybe some sickos out there like @Horsef mentioned that are actively TRYING to get it and spread it. I had heard some news on a potential vaccine, and that they were testing it. This reminds me of World War Z but without the zombies. 

Our province declared a state of emergency earlier this week. I took a 1/2 day off work to go to Costco and register my truck. I wanted to get the registration done before they were no longer accepting walk-ins; but then learned that they were extending the registration date anyway. OH well, it is done now so one less thing to worry about later. 

Costco wasn't bad, but sold out of a few things (TP, canned tomatoes, kidney beans). I did manage to get dog food but even those supplies looked low. 

I think it is the unknown that is bothering me so much. There are no plans to look forward to as who knows how long this will go on for - I suspect a few months at minimum. I just feel blessed that my horses are at home so I can continue to spend time with them. I will still ride, etc on the property and down the roads, but I am now a little leery. The last thing I need is a fall and a trip to a hospital!

All schools were closed last week and it was determined at the end of the week that diploma exams were also cancelled. I believe the teachers are still working to try and develop some sort of plan....but as of right now all my friends with kids are just trying to find ways to entertain them at home. 

My b/f is still working - in fact, he was sent out on a job out of town yesterday. Normally I am glad when he is gone, but with everythign going on it all of a sudden feels kind of lonely. Guess that is why this post is kind of rambly. lol. 

My hat goes off to all the retail folks/grocery store people, hospital folks, truckers & farmers.


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## SilverMaple

Imperial College study just released shows peak of the virus in the US in late May/early June with another wave likely in the fall unless a vaccine is found. They emphasize that testing everyone and only allowing those who have tested positive and then test negative after recovery to return to the workforce is essential. 

It's March. Three more months until it peaks. I'm so scared I'll never see my parents again... both are older, dad has health issues... this is so hard. 

All of the anti-vaxxers out there saying they would refuse a vaccine even if one is found mean a vaccine in the US is not as likely to be effective as in other countries where you don't get a choice as to whether you get vaccinated.


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## AnitaAnne

Horsef said:


> Agreed. I wouldn’t disregard the primeval “ick” factor in this type of simulation either. Mind you, there is a well known phenomenon of “bug-chasers” in the gay cruising subculture - people who believe that they are certain to catch HIV and just want to get it over and done with. There is also a fetish component to it but it is unclear where one ends and the other begins. They aren’t particularly numerous, but they do exist and have been documented in scientific literature. I wouldn’t be surprised if there already are “Corona chasers” out there. As well as people deliberately spreading it (“Gift givers” they call it in the HIV bug chasing subculture) There are some serious outliers out there in the wild.


This is the craziest thing I have ever heard! :eek_color: anyone that sets out to intentionally infect others should be locked up and refused any but the basic treatment. They are a danger to themselves and others :evil:


----------



## Foxhunter

All pubs, restaurants and cafes are now closed.

I went down to the butchers in the town as I do every Saturday, I collect hos scrap for the dogs. Normally he starts to pack up around 1.45 but when I arrived at 1.30 the shop was completely cleared and washed down. He had sold out totally. 

People had been coming in and buying whole trays of meat. Good for his business not good for me as I wanted some stewing steak. Still, I will not starve. 

Charity shops in town are closed until further notice.

Aunt wanted some paracetamol as it helps her leg pain, none to be had in town but the store near where I walk the dogs did have some so I got her a couple of packets. 

People are frightened, that's for sure.


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## AnitaAnne

SilverMaple said:


> Imperial College study just released shows peak of the virus in the US in late May/early June with another wave likely in the fall unless a vaccine is found. They emphasize that testing everyone and only allowing those who have tested positive and then test negative after recovery to return to the workforce is essential.
> 
> It's March. Three more months until it peaks. I'm so scared I'll never see my parents again... both are older, dad has health issues... this is so hard. .


:hug: this is hard on everyone, but we need to stick with the plan unless some other treatment is found. 

This country, or should say the world, now needs to be computer active and use virtual technology to stay in touch. It can work to slow the spread, leaving resources available for those who need it. We can do this, there is no other choice.


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## Celeste

I suspect that this is going to change the way that higher education is looked at permanently. If the online classes go well, many educational institutions will stick with them. 

The local trade school is putting welding online. I guess that they will get the students ready to pass certification exams and hope to do the real hands on stuff as soon as things calm down with the virus. You got to do what you got to do.


----------



## ACinATX

Horsef said:


> Anomalies: Germany and India.
> 
> India: very low infection rate, 249 cases. I find it hard to believe that the virus wouldn’t have spread much faster in a very densely populated environment with a large population living without proper sanitation. The outbreak started right in the middle of their peak tourist season as well (November to March). I am not sure if they get a lot of Chinese tourists though.
> 
> Any ideas?


I'm typing this before reading through responses. My guess would be that India isn't testing adequately so results from there are incomplete.


----------



## Caledonian

It looks like people are starting to panic and running to avoid infection and a possible lockdown. They are traveling from more populated areas in the south of Scotland and the UK to remote Highland locations and islands such as Raasay, Barra and Vatersay to escape the virus. Warnings have been issued to stay away, as their small communities and limited medical services could not cope with an outbreak. 

@*Horsef* - It's frightening that there are people in this world who are willing to play with people's lives by infecting themselves, and no doubt their families and close friends.

Like @*Acadianartist* and @*cbar* , I have spoken with friends who feel that it is inevitable that they will catch it and would prefer to get it over with and build-up some immunity. There is no guarantee that they will catch a mild infection though. 

I keep wondering about the fever i had just over a month ago. It lasted a couple of weeks and did not present like a normal flu or cold. My Doctor said that it was either an infection or virus and sounded me when I informed her that I worked with people who had just arrived in the country. At that point, we did not have cases of C-19 in the community. 

When i returned to work, I struggled to catch my breath as i walked between buildings, a short distance that i usually jog. All these weeks later, i still have a dry cough and I have friends who have experienced similar symptoms (probably caught it from me).

It makes me wonder if C-19 has been circulating for a lot longer than we know, plus, it would be nice to know that I might have some immunity.


----------



## boots

@Caledonian - I suspect that the virus has been here longer, too.

Daughter and her kids brought something back from CA when they were there for polo in December. Some players had been in China for a tournament. I caught it and stayed home. Got tested for influenza before returning to work and that was negative. The doctor said " We're seeing a virus of this sort in people who have traveled to the West coast. I don't know what it is, but we'll get it figured out." 

Last week I offered to have a titre drawn for the immunoglobulin testing, then chuckled as we realized there is no shortage of people who have had C-19. Unfortunately.

The hospital where I work, although remote with no known cases in the service area, is following very stringent protocols.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Day 10 at home, and we are into a groove. 

Son is studying, DH is working online and so am I. Our teenage son is the one who is most affected by the lack of socialization. We've been having 'movie night' every night, and he's been Skyping with friends (when the door is closed, I know it's a girl). We have stumbled onto a series that we all like: _Hunters_, on amazon. It's about a group of Jews in the 1970's hunting down former Nazi leaders in the US, and Al Pacino is one of the leads. It's probably not 'pc', but we get a laugh. Plus, since I grew up in a suburb of Boston with lots of Jewish friends, classmates and neighbors, including holocaust survivors, I get a kick out of hearing the Yiddish slang my very non-religious Protestant father used to use with his friends.


Anyway, as you probably know, our C-19 numbers here are very bleak. Looks like we're going to break all sorts of records, and none of them good. So I don't even want to write about it.

Another important medical tidbit is the most recent reports and seemingly strong *confirmation of an association between ACE inhibitor use (HTN med), especially class II, and more acute lung involvement*. I received several txts about this yesterday from colleagues, as well as a study in Spanish. In addition, I have seen more and more texts confirming that* Ibuprofen is also associated with more acute disease, so Ibuprofen should be avoided.*

Many of you probably know this already because it seems that the US is catching up on getting information out.


----------



## Acadianartist

Caledonian said:


> I keep wondering about the fever i had just over a month ago. It lasted a couple of weeks and did not present like a normal flu or cold. My Doctor said that it was either an infection or virus and sounded me when I informed her that I worked with people who had just arrived in the country. At that point, we did not have cases of C-19 in the community.
> 
> When i returned to work, I struggled to catch my breath as i walked between buildings, a short distance that i usually jog. All these weeks later, i still have a dry cough and I have friends who have experienced similar symptoms (probably caught it from me).
> 
> It makes me wonder if C-19 has been circulating for a lot longer than we know, plus, it would be nice to know that I might have some immunity.


Yes, I had to wonder about this too. DD and I started coughing last September. By about November, I took her to the dr. I was supposed to go too, but something got in the way and hubby ended up taking her while I cancelled my apt. She got a puffer, which did nothing. We both had a dry, but rather severe cough that made it hard to breathe at times. It's hard to describe. I have never had anything like it. Her cough slowly petered out about two months ago and mine was almost gone, but started up again a few days ago. I'm never sick. It was at the point where my husband was really starting to worry about what this was doing to my lungs. 

But without the ability to test people, I guess we just can't possibly know who has it/has had it and who doesn't/hasn't.


----------



## BzooZu

We are watching in horror whats going on in Italy daily. The number of people dying is really scary and we are just hoping that the steps our government is taking to slow this virus down will be enough to protect most of us. 
Both of my grandmas are at very high risk because of their age and also because they are not taking this seriously at all. My parents are also at risk because their imunity is really not the best though they at least are trying to be responsible.

Here (Slovakia) schools have been closed for 2 weeks, restaurants (they can still do deliveries though) and non essential shops for over a week. No social gathering over 10 people allowed at all. Many shops are selling online and are doing deliveries (flower shops, beer shops, like anything you imagine you can have delivered now). If you go out you are required to wear something to cover your mouth and nose - we have been sewing our own face masks because you cant buy any. Everyone who can is working from home, companies are making sure people work in shifts so there is never many of us at the same place. We are quarantining anyone coming home from abroad for 2 weeks minimum (hotels have been changed to quarantine centers so family members dont get sick). Our doctors also lack proper protection at the moment but its slowly getting better - our government is pumping lots of resources to get everything needed. The ones in front lines - the ones meeting sick people and testing for C-19 take priority and are the first to get protective gear. Our government also declared state of emergency which mostly means no strikes are allowed at the moment - mostly as precaution.

The positive thing is, we are testing more and more. At the moment we have "only" 178 confirmed cases. Two weeks ago we had about 20 cases. 1 death of an old patient with many preexisting conditions. People are mostly behaving - you only see anyone going out when needed, mostly our streets are deserted all day long. Our shops are well stocked of most things too - no, we dont have the toilet paper problem (lol).

We are all hoping that the measures we are taking will protect us. Though it will also make this all last longer - our experts are predicting that this will be mostly over with in July which is a bit unimaginable at the moment - 4 more months minimum.


----------



## knightrider

Just read this and found it interesting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-outcomes.html


----------



## Caledonian

Acadianartist said:


> . It's hard to describe. I have never had anything like it. Her cough slowly petered out about two months ago and mine was almost gone, but started up again a few days ago.


I have heard a couple of people say that it is hard to describe the cough they had after a 'cold'. Mine comes and goes throughout the day or is triggered by changes in temperature. I am sitting on the sofa at the moment and the need to cough is overwhelming.

We do not do Routine tests now. As i understand it, they have quadrupled the number but changed to surveillance testing so that they understand the pattern and spread, without having to test everyone with symptoms. Those with mild symptoms won't be tested. 

I doubt we will ever know how widespread it is if 30% - 40% are asymptomatic.


----------



## BzooZu

knightrider said:


> Just read this and found it interesting.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-outcomes.html



1.1 mil of dead in America is the best case scenario...


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## Spanish Rider

I had read CDC calculations ranging from 200,000 to 1.7 million. It all depends on whether the curve is flattened.


----------



## farmpony84

I got accused of hoarding today. I've been out 6 times now looking for toilet paper over the last two weeks yet I go to tractor supply to buy my ONE WEEK supply of horse feed and I get accused of hoarding. I bought 12 bags of horse feed, 1 bag of alfalfa pellets, 2 bags of cat food, 1 bag of pig food and a case of dog food. I get accused of hoarding.

I was a little mad at first but then the lady told me her tractor supply hasn't had chicken food in 2 weeks so she had to drive an hour and a half to find some at our TSC. I didn't have the heart to tell her it was sold out....


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## Spanish Rider

@farmpony84 , something similar happened to me two weeks ago. I was at the register with a full cart, and the older man in front of me started telling the cashier how people were hoarding and acting like it was the end of the world. But with 2 teens that are 6'4" and 6'5", and well as my mum, DH and 4 pets, it was just my standard weekly shop!


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## farmpony84

You are not kidding! I spend a ridiculous amount of money on groceries and I only have ONE teen! Boys eat and eat and eat and still look scrawny!

Me on the other hand.... I smell the yummies and get fat.....


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## AnitaAnne

Several people have mentioned wondering if the bad respiratory issue they had back in January might have been the virus. One in particular mentioned how difficult it was to recover from, and what a hard time she had breathing.


----------



## farmpony84

AnitaAnne said:


> Several people have mentioned wondering if the bad respiratory issue they had back in January might have been the virus. One in particular mentioned how difficult it was to recover from, and what a hard time she had breathing.


I've seen that as well


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## Acadianartist

On a more positive note, I am feeling a lot of nostalgia watching an old friend put on a live concert (free) on the book of faces right now. He was supposed to play a concert on St. Patrick's but it got cancelled. I've spent countless Xmas eves singing along when he would show up at our family gatherings with his guitar. It's kind of awesome - there are over 500 people watching him, many are old friends living in all parts of the world singing along even though we can't hear each other. It's a nice feeling.


----------



## Horsef

Well then.

Our lock down has been increased: 17:00PM to 05:00AM.

They have announced that we will likely be on 24 hour lockdown from Tuesday or Wednesday. I am not sure what the rules will be but this used to be a communist country - no half measures.

People aren’t allowed to walk their dogs at the moment during the lock down. And very few people live in houses, it’s mostly apartment buildings over here.

I am very worried about horses (well, you know, other than the whole Armageddon issue). Most stables don’t have anyone living on premises or any inhabitable structures. I doubt they’ll issue travel papers to feed horses. They are not making many exceptions at all. I guess we will be seeing a lot of dogs and horses (!) on the streets.

Friends of mine have been trying to relocate their horses to rural areas, but nobody will take them in for love or money - people out there are worried their feed will run out before this thing ends. They are thinking of taking them out into a less populated area and releasing them tomorrow.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Horsef said:


> Well then.
> 
> Our lock down has been increased: 17:00PM to 05:00AM.
> 
> They have announced that we will likely be on 24 hour lockdown from Tuesday or Wednesday. I am not sure what the rules will be but this used to be a communist country - no half measures.
> 
> People aren’t allowed to walk their dogs at the moment during the lock down. And very few people live in houses, it’s mostly apartment buildings over here.
> 
> I am very worried about horses (well, you know, other than the whole Armageddon issue). Most stables don’t have anyone living on premises or any inhabitable structures. I doubt they’ll issue travel papers to feed horses. They are not making many exceptions at all. I guess we will be seeing a lot of dogs and horses (!) on the streets.
> 
> Friends of mine have been trying to relocate their horses to rural areas, but nobody will take them in for love or money - people out there are worried their feed will run out before this thing ends. They are thinking of taking them out into a less populated area and releasing them tomorrow.


So sad! Animals can't pass the virus


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

Horsef said:


> Well then.
> 
> 
> 
> Our lock down has been increased: 17:00PM to 05:00AM.
> 
> 
> 
> They have announced that we will likely be on 24 hour lockdown from Tuesday or Wednesday. I am not sure what the rules will be but this used to be a communist country - no half measures.
> 
> 
> 
> People aren’t allowed to walk their dogs at the moment during the lock down. And very few people live in houses, it’s mostly apartment buildings over here.
> 
> 
> 
> I am very worried about horses (well, you know, other than the whole Armageddon issue). Most stables don’t have anyone living on premises or any inhabitable structures. I doubt they’ll issue travel papers to feed horses. They are not making many exceptions at all. I guess we will be seeing a lot of dogs and horses (!) on the streets.
> 
> 
> 
> Friends of mine have been trying to relocate their horses to rural areas, but nobody will take them in for love or money - people out there are worried their feed will run out before this thing ends. They are thinking of taking them out into a less populated area and releasing them tomorrow.


Where is this?????

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## Acadianartist

That's crazy @Horsef! I'm also wondering where you are!

I will say that while we don't have a lot of cases here yet (I'm in New Brunswick, Canada), we are being told to stay home and only go out if we absolutely have to. Unfortunately, I have noticed a big increase in traffic on my road today, and reports from my area say the same. For some reason, everyone is out and about today! I fear this will force our government to impose stronger measures. Some people still just haven't gotten the message!


----------



## Horsef

AnitaAnne said:


> So sad! Animals can't pass the virus


No, they cannot. But if you can’t feed them - like horses, or if they have to poo inside - like dogs, some people will release them. Most people here live in very small apartments. There is no way most people can section off a room just for dogs.

I personally would rather release my horse than euthanize it. Leaving it to starve in its box isn’t an option. Mind you, I most probably wouldn’t be able to euthanize it either, I doubt there is a way to dispose of the remains in such a short time.

This whole thing sucks.


----------



## Horsef

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Where is this?????
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


Serbia. I am not sure this scenario will play out, but people here are very worried. The authorities just don’t have time to analyze all the special cases - so they seem to be going the “war effort only” route. If it isn’t about saving human lives and feeding people, it’s out.

I will keep you guys posted when we know more. Hopefully the authorities will make an exception.

Again, this whole thing sucks.


----------



## Acadianartist

So sorry @Horsef. Please keep us posted. How tragic.


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## Horsef

If someone told me a month ago that I would be going over satellite images trying to find a place to release my horse - I would call them crazy.

On a positive note - I found the place.

:/


----------



## tinyliny

there is no reason why people cannot go out and walk around, take their dogs out to poo. You are not going to transmit this virus to someone else walking around, who is 10 feet away from you. 

This is a foolish and insane response by a government. People need to be realistic, not crazy.


----------



## Horsef

tinyliny said:


> there is no reason why people cannot go out and walk around, take their dogs out to poo. You are not going to transmit this virus to someone else walking around, who is 10 feet away from you.
> 
> This is a foolish and insane response by a government. People need to be realistic, not crazy.


Eh - we have that now and streets and parks are chock full of people - mainly youth, parents and children (lots and lots of children, accompanied or otherwise) and people walking their dogs. If they let people walk their dogs, they will walk all over the place all day long and stop to chat to everyone and anyone. In that regard we are similar to Italians.

I think part of the reason Spain and Italy took off so fast is the friendly nature of those people. Whereas Germans will see their friends once a week, or once every few weeks, in Mediterranean and Balkans it’s practically every day. And we kiss everyone and their grandmother.


----------



## Polychromy

Here in France there are 14,459 confirmed cases and 562 deaths already, I hope it doesn't get any worse than this.


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

Anyone else seen this ad on HF? :shock:


----------



## SilverMaple

^ I've seen something similar a few places today. Unfortunately, especially in very urban or very rural areas, cemetery lots will fill quickly and there will be no more room. Cremation then becomes your only option.


----------



## Dressagegirl29

The FDA and other health associations needs to approve Avigan for the treatment of the Coronavirus; we need to end this thing, right now!


----------



## loosie

Haven't been keeping up with thread lately so sorry if I repeat ...
Australia has just got serious & will be in lockdown from Tuesday. State borders & non essential services & movement banned. 

Curiously tho(TIC), 'they' consider mining an essential service. So I suppose Adani will be running amok while protesters stuck at home...


----------



## Cordillera Cowboy

Philippines here. As of March 21st, we had 230 confirmed cases and 18 deaths. All concentrated in the Manila area. I suspect that the numbers are actually much higher due to a shortage of test kits and labs able to process the samples. 

About mid March, the President put Manila under quarantine, but gave several days advance notice. Of course, there was a mass exodus ahead of the quarantine, so there will be cases showing up in the provinces soon. 

A few days ago, the entire island of Luzon was put under quarantine. Local instructions are that people are to remain in their homes except essential workers. Food markets remain open. The only shortages I’ve noticed are in alcohol and disinfecting wipes. The less expensive brands of canned foods are in short supply. 

Only one person per household is allowed to leave home to get groceries, medication, or go to the bank. That person is supposed to be 59 years old or younger, but older than 18. 

We are an oddity in the Philippines in that there is no one in our household under 60, and no kids. I got a quarantine pass from our barangay captain the other day to make a supply run for the ranch. Drinking water, canned goods, and veggies. I passed through 2 check points staffed by the National police. No problems. 

The pass is good for only one day, but we generally only need to make a supply run once a week. 

The rural folks, as well as the urban poor here generally have no concept of Western style sanitation and hygiene practices. Once it gets into the general population, all bets are off.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Dressagegirl29 said:


> The FDA and other health associations needs to approve Avigan for the treatment of the Coronavirus; we need to end this thing, right now!


There is much data indicating that this drug can help. Hopefully it will be approved and we can get plenty manufactured quickly. If the world leaders would work together for this...


----------



## gottatrot

Something to consider in my part of the U.S. is that the hospitals are run with economical/profit factors in mind. This means that they don't keep more staff employed than necessary, and they don't make extra beds beyond what they anticipate will be filled. On any given day in the cities around here (before Covid), there will be several hospitals on divert due to either having all available beds full, or no more available staff. In a normal state of things people are shipped around to hospitals that have empty beds from one place to another. 
My point is that it even a few extra sick people would mean all the hospitals were full. 

I'm not sure either how a whole lot of extra patients would be cared for either. It's not like there are a lot of extra doctors and nurses that are sitting around waiting for work to open up. Most are already employed. There are laws for nurses that help them protect their licenses, meaning I don't know of any nurses that would accept an assignment with more patients than they felt they could care for safely. People might be dying, but their families are still allowed to sue if for example they didn't get the care they needed because a nurse was overwhelmed. 

Around here people seem to be afraid of fruits and vegetables, and are only buying bananas. Apparently because they can peel them without washing them. I guess it needs to be made more clear that this virus cannot be caught by consuming it.


----------



## Horsef

Our neighbors, Croatia, just had two strong earthquakes with a lot of damage. The current directive to public is to stay OUT of the buildings as they are expecting more. This whole thing is beginning to feel like an unrealistic Hollywood blockbuster.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Stock up on the TP now...new evidence of fecal virus shedding 

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticl...rology_covid&uac=227072FJ&impID=2318549&faf=1


----------



## AnitaAnne

gottatrot said:


> Something to consider in my part of the U.S. is that the hospitals are run with economical/profit factors in mind. This means that they don't keep more staff employed than necessary, and they don't make extra beds beyond what they anticipate will be filled. On any given day in the cities around here (before Covid), there will be several hospitals on divert due to either having all available beds full, or no more available staff. In a normal state of things people are shipped around to hospitals that have empty beds from one place to another.
> My point is that it even a few extra sick people would mean all the hospitals were full.
> 
> I'm not sure either how a whole lot of extra patients would be cared for either. It's not like there are a lot of extra doctors and nurses that are sitting around waiting for work to open up. Most are already employed. There are laws for nurses that help them protect their licenses, meaning I don't know of any nurses that would accept an assignment with more patients than they felt they could care for safely. People might be dying, but their families are still allowed to sue if for example they didn't get the care they needed because a nurse was overwhelmed.
> 
> Around here people seem to be afraid of fruits and vegetables, and are only buying bananas. Apparently because they can peel them without washing them. I guess it needs to be made more clear that this virus cannot be caught by consuming it.


We are increasing staffing thru lots of overtime (one nurse is working 6-12's each week because her husband employer has limited the work hours. They have bills to pay. 


Other safeguards are in place for COVID-19 patients


----------



## AnitaAnne

Horsef said:


> Our neighbors, Croatia, just had two strong earthquakes with a lot of damage. The current directive to public is to stay OUT of the buildings as they are expecting more. This whole thing is beginning to feel like an unrealistic Hollywood blockbuster.


Sad news. Stay safe.


----------



## loosie

Horsef said:


> Our neighbors, Croatia, just had two strong earthquakes with a lot of damage. The current directive to public is to stay OUT of the buildings as they are expecting more. This whole thing is beginning to feel like an unrealistic Hollywood blockbuster.


Have you heard of a film called 'The Purge'? Haven't seen it so dunno if there were earthquakes too, but it was made years ago, about a world pandemic & was set 2 days ago or something!


----------



## loosie

Caledonian said:


> Supermarkets are hiring thousands of permanent and temporary staff to help with demand.


My bro is a personal trainer, is attempting to still earn money by doing it thru Instagram. His partner worked in a restaurant & was sacked last week. She went for a position at a supermarket yesterday, as ours are frantically trying to keep up with demand too. This one had 8 positions to fill.... and something like 6300 people turned up wanting the jobs! Tomorrow they both go to apply for unemployment benefits... wonder how long the cues will be there...


----------



## Spanish Rider

@Horsef , please let us know how the horse thing works out, and I'd love to se a screen shot of the satellite image of the place you chose.


In reference to the huge spike in Spain, both last week and the week before we had excellent weather here in central Spain, so lots of people were out on the streets, in the parks and in outdoor cafés. That timeframe aligns with the spike in infections we are seeing now. Be that as it may, I am convinced that public trasportation and children/youth in schools had a lot more to do with the contagion.


Currently, in Spain we are witnessing comparisons being made with Germany, which has an extremely low death rate. I would like to give a few words of caution on interpreting such data:

1) Without a standardized international data registry (*the WHO should be doing this*), it is IMPOSSIBLE to make unbiased comparisons at this time.

2) Countries who are testing on a larger scale (like Germany) will always have lower death rates, because their number of "infected" patients includes asymptomatic and mild cases. This is only possible in the initial stages of the pandemic, and this was not done in Spain or Italy.

3) Countries who are already witnessing a spike in their curve (Spain, Italy currently) are not testing everyone. They are *ONLY TESTING HOSPITALIZED PATIENTS*, who are the most critical. 

4) As there is no standardized registry of data, some countries are reporting COVID19 deaths to include ANY death (all-cause deaths) with C19 infection (Spain, for example). Other countries are reporting COVID19 deaths as only those patients who had no comorbidities or were not previously hospitalized, so that COVID19 was the ONLY cause of death.


Having said that, it is also important to look at the number of hospital beds per capita per country.

Germany: 8.3 per 100 inhabitants
Italy: 3.4/100
Spain: 3.0/100
United States: 2.9/100
UK: 2.8/100

I think that data is quite clear. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.BEDS.ZS?view=chart


Equally clear is the number of physicians per capita (again, Germany up front and US at the end https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.PHYS.ZS?view=chart).


However, where the US is in the lead is in the number of critical care beds per 100,000 inhabitants, and that is where the US has an advantage for saving more C-19 pandemic patients:

US: 34.7 ICU beds / 100,000 inhabitants
Germany: 29.2
Italy: 12.5
Spain: 9.7
UK: 6.6


Lastly, let's not forget that data reporting is also tainted by politics. I'm not pointing any fingers here - this is across the board and seen in all countries, making it essential for an unbiased entity like the WHO to provide an anonymous data registry where doctors/departments can report their data, without going through government channels.

(This is a typical practice in the treatment of many diseases, and I find it inexplicable that it is not being done for this pandemic. Baffling.)


----------



## gottatrot

In our community people want to know why more are not being tested. We are only testing people who have symptoms that are not mild and not explained by another disease. The amount of masks we have are limited, and every test done requires that the person testing wears one. So for example if we tested 1,000 people, that would be 1,000 masks. If most of those people are negative or will only have mild symptoms, this is a waste of masks that may be needed for treatment of people who are actually ill. So we are not testing as an "FYI" around here or to soothe people's worries.


----------



## loosie

SilverMaple said:


> I'm so scared I'll never see my parents again... both are older, dad has health issues... this is so hard.
> 
> All of the anti-vaxxers out there saying they would refuse a vaccine even if one is found mean a vaccine in the US is not as likely to be effective as in other countries where you don't get a choice as to whether you get vaccinated.


Yes, I'm terrified for my parents(who split some years back). Mum is not healthy, has bipolar & has been 'up' & entertaining, rushing off all over the place, entertaining Pommy relatives(who I guess may be stuck here for the duration - they came last week for a 3 week holiday!). Dad was due to have a pacemaker in, but they've put that on hold. He's blase 'I'm way fitter than any 70+yo I know' and his partner is a nurse 'But of course they have adequate measures in place in hospitals, so she will never get the disease'...

As far as anti vaxxers, I would imagine it's similar to over here, that there aren't that many of them, in the scheme of things, so it probably won't make a real dent. Most of us over here don't have a flu shot either, unless people are old or immuno-compromised. My hubby is asthmatic, gets eczema, hayfever, possibly has asbestosis and he's been getting flu shots last few years, but it's rare for under 60's I think.


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## Spanish Rider

@gottatrot , I agree. I personally believe that the time has passed for widerange testing. It is now more important for everyone to stay home, provide healthcare workers with the resources they need to grapple this thing, and let them do their work.


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## Caledonian

loosie said:


> My bro is a personal trainer, is attempting to still earn money by doing it thru Instagram. His partner worked in a restaurant & was sacked last week. She went for a position at a supermarket yesterday, as ours are frantically trying to keep up with demand too. This one had 8 positions to fill.... and something like 6300 people turned up wanting the jobs! Tomorrow they both go to apply for unemployment benefits... wonder how long the cues will be there...



I hope they both succeed; losing work is the last thing they need. 

We have had a lot of people made redundant from the hospitality industry, many said that they will not be able to pay their next rent and other bills. The worry must be awful.

Our five big supermarkets are taking on 30,000 plus people and the UK Government is offering companies a grant of up to £2,500 a month for each member of staff who would otherwise be made redundant. I'm not sure where there is support for our self-employed though. Fingers crossed it works in practice.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51976075
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51982005


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## loosie

^Caledonian, our esteemed PM has told people to just go on the dole, and will not be freezing mortgage or rent payments. I just don't know how people are meant to cope. My bro is renting in the city, after getting his new business going, has no savings to fall back on. One sister has a huge mortgage & the other has their house(mortgaged) here, and 2 investment properties in London. God I hope our (investment) house settlement goes thru, set for this Friday, because if it doesn't, we're seriously up the creek, even if my husband's job(construction so classed as essential) does hold out. ...And then, if it does go through, I feel really sorry for the young bloke who bought it - he's a landscape gardener, by no means essential.


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## Horsef

@Spanish Rider Thank you so much for taking the time to write here. It means a lot.

My horse will be ok for another two and a half months. Some of the staff live at the yard and we just stocked up on food. Some of my friends aren’t so lucky. I’ll keep you posted.

I’ll post the satellite image of the “place” in a bit from my PC.


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## Caledonian

@loosie - I hope everything goes well for you and your family.


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## Acadianartist

Horsef said:


> @*Spanish Rider* Thank you so much for taking the time to write here. It means a lot.
> 
> My horse will be ok for another two and a half months. Some of the staff live at the yard and we just stocked up on food. Some of my friends aren’t so lucky. I’ll keep you posted.
> 
> I’ll post the satellite image of the “place” in a bit from my PC.


That's a relief @Horsef! I just can't imagine the heartbreak of having to take your horses out to a wilderness area and just setting them free, not knowing what will happen to them. I do hope for your sake that this is all over within the next 2.5 months. 

And I get what you're saying about letting people walk their dogs and ending up with everyone outside socializing. I anticipate stronger measures coming tomorrow (Monday) for us because a lot of people have been out and about this weekend. That's fine - my kids and I are ok to stay on our 13 acre property and I have enough hay to last until the pastures grow up again for my horses. My husband is going to work every day in the city, but I don't think they will be able to shut him down so he's our lifeline to getting supplies. He's also our weak link. It is what is... not much we can do about it. One of us would have to go in for groceries anyway. I am ordering things online and having them delivered at his office, or having him pick up on location with everything being pre-ordered and he is met at the door. We are fortunate overall. 

But it is beginning to sink in that this is not going to be over in a matter of weeks. My kids won't likely go back to school until September. My son probably won't play provincial football in July. The horse show I was organizing for mid-July probably won't happen (I've put everything on hold for now since Equestrian Canada is telling us there will be no events or competitions for a while). Honestly, it sucks, but it could be so much worse. 

Hoping everyone here is holding up ok.


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## horselovinguy

Horsef... in the US taking care of animals, whether a kennel, rescue or boarding place _*for any animals*_ is considered essential employment since animals must eat and be cared for.
As is supplying the food needs of these various animals is essential employment...not furloughed.
Your animal if kept ina boarding barn will be fed, cared for...you do not have to turn her loose to fend for herself.

Here is a sobering thought...
Just because there are beds in a hospital does not mean the hospital is equipped to treat cases of this virus..
In a outbreak such as this, where transmission is so crazy easily done special ventilating systems need to be in place, and sorry most hospitals more than 3 years of age are not built with it...
So very specialized in no leakage of air going in or out, special way removal of waste products such as paper goods, sheets, towels, food uneaten, medical waste that it is quarantine status safe and then disposal companies need to be specially equipped to handle such contagious waste products.

Family member works in a very, very large hospital in NJ....hot spot in this nation for cases.
They are maxed out with 6 patients in this special unit, 1 bed was available Friday afternoon.
Staff can _not_ work double shifts and give adequate care when they already work 12 hour shifts now...at the expense of all patient care someone is going to screw up because they _are_ exhausted.
Yes, many hospitals are housing their staff on site to sleep then return to work, a band-aid and can only work for just so long before this blows up in everyone's face..
That is realistic not a fantasy of thinking we are super-human and can go on unlimited, under stressful life-threatening conditions, forget if assigned to these specialty units, repeated exposure and not expect infection of the staff to occur is ludicrous.
Thinking its going to be otherwise is.... well, it is going to happen. Our hospital staff is going to come down with this...then who cares for the sick, to hold off the grim reaper.

We are in early stages of this outbreak here.. a few weeks but only this week are numbers starting to truly begin to elevate.
CDC is advising prepare for a 8 week minimum....so 6 weeks of intense medical care and stress to the staff trying to accommodate, forget just us regular citizens still yet to come.
Buckle up, we are in for a bumpy ride.

Please, please...
Don't over buy at the store, cause then the next person has nothing and you can't use what you hoarded and _you can not return anything to stores. _
No food or household products, cleaning or anything for fear of if you were contaminated & recovered you just contaminated the entire stores inventory.
Buy what you need as you need it...or pay the price literally!!
You know the saying about "play it forward", we should all be practicing that when we shop. 
_Buy what you need and leave some for the next person._
Trucks _*are*_ waiting to unload...I saw convoys of trucks heading down the highway...all loaded and those from the companies who deliver goods to our local stores of paper, cleaning and food stuffs.
Walmart by me had 20 trucks waiting to unload, waiting for a space on the loading dock so they could leave and go get more products for another store needing.
Stores are hiring as many as apply to unload, to clean and sanitize every shipment in, every store shelf and surface must be wiped down continually to try to slow the progression of this virus..._manpower we need all the stores are pleading for help to hire..._
The products _are_ waiting to get on the shelves, _there is no shortage,_ it just takes a bit of extra time to get it to the shelf trying to keep you illness free...


If you are told to self-isolate, _*do it!*_
To the very best of your ability, do it. 
Keeping to yourself, in your home and on your property, not out in public is smart and just might be what saves you and ultimately could be your life. 
Staying apart is one of the only ways transmission not happen.
:runninghorse2:


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## Horsef

We’ve just had the good news that people will be able to walk their dogs (under stringent rules) so I guess the authorities are open to dialogue. I am now much more optimistic that I will not have to release my horse to fend for herself. 

I suppose they didn’t allow dog walking from the start to scare people into compliance -“Be happy you get this much, we’ll take it away if you abuse it” - very good political craftsmanship.

One thing no one is really talking about (yet) is the possibly of civil unrest. I’ve lived in two politically unstable countries. This whole thing we call “state” is a very fragile illusion. It is frightening to see how quickly it can crumble under duress. So, props to politicians for keeping it all together so far. Watching them employ various techniques has been fascinating.

For example, here at least, all the various politicians and doctors talking at the big daily televised press conference are cleanly shaven, well dressed, ladies have tidy hair and makeup. It seems silly, there is no substance to hair and makeup. But if our leaders appear disheveled - subconsciously we assume things are out of control. And panic sets in. 

Another example: there is a big basketball arena right next to our central district. It is also very visible from the main highway. They’ve transformed it into a logistics center where volunteers are preparing care packages for the elderly. Lots of large trucks are neatly parked outside. Lots of volunteers with clipboards and face-masks directing the proceedings. There was no need for this operation to be right there in the middle of the city. But it is highly visible and gives people a sense of security. Good work keeping people from losing their mind in a highly stressful situation.


----------



## boots

A large grocery chain in the US has told cashiers they will install plexiglass to minimize contact. Cashiers are in close contact with about 200 people a shift. This same chain is promising a two dollar/hour raise for all employees.

I just spent an hour and a half in town trying to get supplies. I bought a couple yards of flannel and ended up telling people about how to make reusable/washable toilet "paper." I think there might be a small run on flannel.

Two daughters have lost their jobs. They are scrambling for day work, and I'm calling contacts for them to see if any ranchers need help. Ag is considered essential and you're not in close contact with anyone.


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## Horsef

horselovinguy said:


> Horsef... in the US taking care of animals, whether a kennel, rescue or boarding place _*for any animals*_ is considered essential employment since animals must eat and be cared for.
> As is supplying the food needs of these various animals is essential employment...not furloughed.
> Your animal if kept ina boarding barn will be fed, cared for...you do not have to turn her loose to fend for herself.


I understand the sentiment, thank you.

(I’ve written a whole bunch about civil war and irrelevance of toilet paper but it was too negative and doomsday-y so I’ve erased it. No need for that)


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## AuG

Restrictions are getting tighter, but Australia seems to be coping pretty well so far. That said, it is early days.

Massive stimulus package announced today. All jobseekers are entitled to welfare, without a waiting period, of $1100 a fortnight, more than what many people in work earn in usual times. It is higher than the aged and disability pensions. I am assuming volunteering requirements will factor in to that, there has to be some incentive for people to stay in lower paid (essential) work. 

With no one coming in on working visas, I am interested to see what happens during seeding. I cant imagine people are going to be keen to work long hard hours on a farm when the dole pays so much. There is also sure to be an increase in jobs in health care, home care, deliveries, packing and processing. Small and medium businesses will get up to $100,000 in the package. It all appears very generous.

Price gouging is going on in grocery stores, I see that regularly outside of the city so it is not a big shock to me. I am trying to plan what vegetables to plant in my garden and how I will get rid of my excess drakes so I don't have to feed them, especially if feed stores run out of stock like is happening in this thread! It makes me anxious about pet food, as I only have enough for a month, and I wasn't planning another trip to town until April.

As much as I miss horses, I am glad not to have them right now.


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## avjudge

@Caledonian, I was just reading a first-person account of a couple who are quarantined with mild C-19 as confirmed by testing - it does sound a lot like what you've described, especially getting out of breath just walking! 
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/03/a-week-with-the-coronavirus-we-knew-it-wasnt-the-flu.html

My husband and I are 60ish and healthy so not _quite_ in a high-risk group (but not low-risk either). But we live with my dad who will be 93 next month so are very worried about it getting into our house. Though unfortunately Dad, who is a selectman and also the emergency coordinator for our small town of a few hundred, is impossible to keep in the house - even though he's 100% aware of all issues involved. Frustrating!


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## Caledonian

@*avjudge* - My elderly mum is the same as your dad. She refuses to stay in the house and away from shops. We have compromised; she comes out but remains in the car. Very frustrating! What is a selectman? Is that similar to our Councillor? I doubt i will ever know if my illness was the virus or something with similar symptoms. The cough has been plaguing me all day and an attempt at some light gardening had me sitting down every ten minutes for a breather.


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## gjb

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this forum. I appreciate the wealth of knowledge on here. I feel like you are all family.
We are all in this together..

The governor in Ohio has just issued a shelter in place for our state. Kind of knew that was coming. We have 351 of known cases(up 100 from yesterday. 83 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths. There are not enough tests out there so this is really not accurate.
Shelter in place means we can get the essentials, groceries, farm supplies, etc. We can also take walks, go to our state parks. But avoiding contact with others.

Just happy I can go to the barn and de-stress a bit. I have enough food for the horses for 1-2 months if I stretch it out. It is Spring and the grass is growing but can't put the pony on it because of his Cushings.
My husband and I turned 70 this year so we are trying to be careful, but still need to get the necessities and our children are in a different state.
I wish you all the best and be kind to each other!


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## avjudge

Caledonian said:


> @*avjudge* - My elderly mum is the same as your dad. She refuses to stay in the house and away from shops. We have compromised; she comes out but remains in the car. Very frustrating! What is a selectman? Is that similar to our Councillor? . . .


Yes, a selectman/person is a member of the selectboard (traditional name: board of selectmen), which in conjunction with an annual town meeting of all town citizens is the historical form of government of New England towns since the days of the Puritans (1600s). "Cities" have a charter that sets up a different government (mayor, councilors, whatever), and many larger towns have moved to a professional town manager system, but we still have the old form.

And now, in addition to running around town, and making a trip to Walmart 15 minutes after I finished a stock-up trip there (that was last Wed.), he's wanting to drive down to Mass. (~150 miles from here) to talk to the boatyard about his old wooden sailboat, which might need some repair that he needs to figure out. Aargh!

I hope you improve soon, and your mum stays healthy!!


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## Spanish Rider

At midnight, I was sent this chart from a colleague with the day's tally. This is VERY exciting, but I don't want to jinx it, so I am posting it anonymously here. Could we really be flattening the curve so soon? Or is this an anomaly?

Also, we are afraid that if this news gets out, people will start taking confinement less seriously and we'll have another spike within 2 weeks. 

Anyway, I won't be convinced until I see the data trend in coming days, but tonight I will sleep much better.


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## Spanish Rider

I've just received an audio message confirming these data! We had been on an incrementing trend of 50%/day, which dropped yesterday to 25% and today to only 14%. 

Wow. Looks like the quarantine has really slammed the brakes on this thing. But we are still not out of the woods.


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## farmpony84

Our state finally got the tests in so our numbers will be sky rocketing shortly. My county is currently at 8 cases.


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## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> I've just received an audio message confirming these data! We had been on an incrementing trend of 50%/day, which dropped yesterday to 25% and today to only 14%.
> 
> Wow. Looks like the quarantine has really slammed the brakes on this thing. But we are still not out of the woods.


Amazing news! Hopefully you guys put a handle on it. I’m very happy for you in Spain and for everyone else.

Thank you so much for posting.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> At midnight, I was sent this chart from a colleague with the day's tally. This is VERY exciting, but I don't want to jinx it, so I am posting it anonymously here. Could we really be flattening the curve so soon? Or is this an anomaly?
> 
> Also, we are afraid that if this news gets out, people will start taking confinement less seriously and we'll have another spike within 2 weeks.
> 
> Anyway, I won't be convinced until I see the data trend in coming days, but tonight I will sleep much better.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1006749


h

It looks like R is below 1 or am I reading it wrong?

If that’s true, I am so happy and excited!


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## Acadianartist

This is slightly terrifying on the other hand. 



https://www.zmescience.com/science/much-worse-than-italy-in-the-us-an-absolute-disaster-is-brewing/


----------



## Horsef

Acadianartist said:


> This is slightly terrifying on the other hand.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.zmescience.com/science/much-worse-than-italy-in-the-us-an-absolute-disaster-is-brewing/


I wrote a whole post about States but decided against posting it because I don’t want to think that I am fear mongering. Plus, criticism of specific countries is in poor taste, especially seeing that there are so many Americans on the forum. I apologize if I offend anybody.

If you want the true picture on the ground, go to LegalAdvice subreddit on Reddit. 

- Landlords having open houses (who in their right mind goes house hunting at the moment and why is it allowed?)

- people going to work while being ordered to isolate by their doctor (the advice was - complain to HR - what?! Over here she would get herself very arrested very fast)

- people being threatened with being fired if they don’t show up to work while running a fever...

Crazy, crazy stuff. 

If it was some third rate country (like mine) - sure, whatever, knock yourself out - we will just isolate you and reassess in six months time. But if States decides to self-destruct, we will all suffer greatly.


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## Aprilswissmiss

My vet hospital has again upped its measures. On top of previous protocol, new protocol now includes:

- Lunch breaks are taken one at a time in isolation, dishes are NOT to be cleaned in the hospital, rather put away in sealed lunch boxes to be taken home. Entire eating area is wiped down after one use. No food or drinks allowed anywhere outside of sealed lunch boxes or on lunch table during break.

- We are NOT allowed to print invoices or receipts. Instead, we are required to email them to clients.

- We are NOT allowed to take physical copies of medical records. Instead, we are required to tell clients to email them to us.

- We MUST come in with clean scrubs and shoes wiped. (Some people, not me, were in the habit of reusing scrubs if they don't have a clean pair) It is really unfortunate that the drier at home just broke so now I must expose myself at a laundromat if I want clean scrubs. :/

- We MUST only use a single computer and phone per person per shift. No sharing or switching. Computers and phones are to be wiped down before and after each shift by the person responsible for them. This one in particular is very difficult because I have coworkers who, when under pressure, will jump on the nearest computer or grab the nearest phone when ringing, which then boots someone out of their spot, which boots someone else out of their spot... And then from there on it just doesn't work. We tried doing this system on Friday and it immediately fell apart when my boss would ask a non-reception person to check someone out, which requires the special computers in the front. It also does not help that in some shifts, we have more workers than we have computers and phones. What then?

- Delivery personnel (those that bring us medication shipments) are NOT to enter the building, but rather drop their packages in the front. This one is really difficult because they are in the habit of coming into the building to drop off, and often they're so fast we can't stop them before they come inside. Surprised the shipment company does not have their own protocol about not entering buildings!! Boss is considering locking the front doors, but then we may accidentally lock ourselves out when retrieving patients from the parking lot.


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## SwissMiss

@Spanish Rider, I am SO hoping that your trend holds true :hug:


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## isabellamor

My brother had a swab test as he works as a nurse in a hospital and was assigned to take good care of the covid-19 patients. As much as he wants to go home he just can't since he doesn't want us to be at risk.


----------



## AnitaAnne

Spanish Rider said:


> I've just received an audio message confirming these data! We had been on an incrementing trend of 50%/day, which dropped yesterday to 25% and today to only 14%.
> 
> Wow. Looks like the quarantine has really slammed the brakes on this thing. But we are still not out of the woods.


This is so exciting!! The plan is WORKING!! Pray it continues and other countries (like ours) follow and learn. 

:loveshower::loveshower::loveshower:


BTW, everything is closed here. It is very strange. Only stores open are grocery stores and gas stations. Plus of course Walmart. Saw a sign on the Starbucks "last day open" but I still didn't buy one of those horribly expensive a over sweetened drinks. 

My phone died today, so trying to find a replacement was stressful. I know own a cheapo no contract phone, and a battery for my old phone that still doesn't work. Drove 60 miles each way for that battery :frown_color:


----------



## tinyliny

Are you a business owner that is impacted by this? your place shut down, and you letting your employees go? you get let go from you job?
I want to hear your story. I am very worried about the economic fallout of this, and if anyone is experiencing that personally already.


----------



## loosie

AuG said:


> how I will get rid of my excess drakes so I don't have to feed them,


Where abouts are you AuG? General region OK, no need for specific.

People have been going BERSERK buying chooks for eggs, I imagine same for ducks. (& while I have most seeds I need that I've saved from last season, couldn't buy vegie seeds or seedlings in shops - ppl going off on vegie patches too) My eldest breeds rare breed chooks & Darcy has been advertising the pullets for months & it's not been a good year for their sales, but last few days, we could have sold 100 chickens! Yesterday we had 3 ppl turn up for the last 5 birds & argue over them!! 1st 2 took 2 & 3 each - they wanted more but we divided so both got some, & last person turned up as 1st 2 leaving & went empty handed!

We had a heap of excess young roosters and as they no good to eat(not fattened up so little meat), but we skun & put them in the freezer for the dogs. If you don't have dogs yourself, I imagine if you put the word out for other dog owners who raw feed...

Yeah, not just the matter of possible lack of supply of animal feed, but if ppl go broke, I imagine, as Horsef said about Croatia, there will be a lot of dumped animals, because ppl can't afford to feed them... scary times. I'm off to finish my winter vegie patch now!


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## Spanish Rider

They were wrong. The data were wrong. Data were not being correctly compiled from the facilities the army set up, which were opened on Friday. 


We are still on the upwards spike. 

I was going to ask the moderators to delete my former messages, but perhaps they are a good example of progression of the situation over time.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Again, sorry everyone. At least I slept well last night, though.
@Horsef , the approach in the US is very different from here in Europe. Decisions are coming from the governors, so there are basically 50 different attempts at containment, depending on the current rates in each state. 

Is anyone here from New York? I've seen parts of Cuomo's speeches, and I would like to hear how things are going 'on the ground.'


----------



## Foxhunter

I had a very strong lecture from my niece yesterday! She is and ICU Paediatric Nurse. She is working at a major UK hospital where they are expecting more outbreaks to hit in the coming weeks. 

Keeping 2 metres (6ft) distance seems to be vital if you meet anyone. 

I had to go to the store to get milk yesterday, not many people there and I did here the manager telling a till girl that customers could only purchase one of each item including alcohol as stocks were low. 

Also big warnings about people walking in parks and public places which evidently were crowded yesterday. 

I did notice that there were a lot more people walking on the Downs. I did keep clear as I more often or not go places off the main tracks.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> They were wrong. The data were wrong. Data were not being correctly compiled from the facilities the army set up, which were opened on Friday.
> 
> 
> We are still on the upwards spike.
> 
> I was going to ask the moderators to delete my former messages, but perhaps they are a good example of progression of the situation over time.


I’m very sorry to hear that. I think we were all aware of that possibility.
Thank you for posting in any case and thank you for retracting as soon as you found out.


----------



## AuG

I am in rural WA @loosie. I wanted to eat the drakes myself, but only have a little bar fridge at the moment, no freezer. Plus, I've never butchered a duck, as excited I am to try, it doesn't seem a smart time to be risking food poisoning haha. I don't have dogs but that is a great idea to offer them to people who do. They are 8 weeks old, fat and would be the best kind of pekin duck eating their is. 

Sorry to hear the data was incorrect @SpanishRider. That must have been a bit of a blow on top of an already hard time. 

I am watching the news now to catch up with whats going on here. It is less alarming and sensationalist than twitter is.


----------



## Foxhunter

My niece has been in isolation after she returned fro N Italy where the worse cases are. She has been teaching in a school in Milan. 

Now she is back home with her parents. She is still teaching, via Skype, classes of 24 students each lesson. Her day starts at 7a.m. And she continues through to 6 p.m. with a siesta break of a couple of hours. 

Here all schools are closed although they are taking children of front line workers who have no one to look after them. All exams have been cancelled, a blow to older children due to take essential exams prior to applying to universities. 

As far as I know there is no teaching being done via the Internet here. Seems poorly managed.


----------



## PoptartShop

Well, starting tomorrow, Delaware will have a 'stay at home' lockdown order. You can still go to grocery stores, the doctor, etc. but only go out as needed. I work in Delaware, so I'm assuming we will continue to work from home for the time being. Although, the order will be in place til mid-May, unless something changes.

I live in Maryland, & the governor is supposed to speak sometime today. So, I'm sure we will also have the same thing in place. Only a matter of time.

Hang in there, guys!


----------



## Horsef

PoptartShop said:


> Well, starting tomorrow, Delaware will have a 'stay at home' lockdown order. You can still go to grocery stores, the doctor, etc. but only go out as needed. I work in Delaware, so I'm assuming we will continue to work from home for the time being. Although, the order will be in place til mid-May, unless something changes.
> 
> I live in Maryland, & the governor is supposed to speak sometime today. So, I'm sure we will also have the same thing in place. Only a matter of time.
> 
> Hang in there, guys!


It’s good to hear you guys are locking up. We’ve been on soft lockdown during the day and strict get-yourself-arrested at night. It really isn’t bad at all. We aren’t bored in the slightest. If anything, I don’t have enough time for everything I have planned. Good luck.


----------



## egrogan

tinyliny said:


> Are you a business owner that is impacted by this? your place shut down, and you letting your employees go? you get let go from you job?
> I want to hear your story. I am very worried about the economic fallout of this, and if anyone is experiencing that personally already.


Yes, the economic fallout is already predicted to be Great Depression-era, and that's without really having great models of when the pandemic will peak. That's 20-25% unemployment, economic contraction of 14% just this quarter and probably double that next quarter. How do you put a price on lives saved vs. lives lost to other causes, other health needs unmet, mental health crises as a result of sudden jobless and homelessness, substance abuse, critical disruptions to childhood nutrition and care? I don't know how you make that calculation but I will sound crass and say it should be a factor in all of this, if not the first or only factor. (To be clear, I'm not saying the virus isn't terrifyingly serious. But it's not like what many hundreds of thousands of "healthy" people are going to be facing isn't terrifyingly serious too.)

My husband runs a fairly large federal economic development program. He's been on the phone with various Senators, Reps, and both appropriations committees all weekend. They are working on strategies to very quickly redeploy millions of dollars to help municipalities help small businesses. The SBA has been pretty proactive in getting Emergency Economic Disaster Injury loans out the door (though there is controversy about the interest rate they are currently attaching). Sounds like a $1 trillion+ stimulus package is coming together and may get a vote tomorrow. But is it enough? Who even knows what will be enough? The long term implications of the economic fallout are as staggering as the short term health crisis.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Most current numbers I can find are CV19 cases = 67 and 2 confirmed CV Deaths. A drop in the bucket compared to many other cases and I expect the numbers to rise sharply with increased testing. Yesterday's update conference confirm that about 670 tests have been done with 67 positives, so 1 in 10 are getting the disease. The most current data shows it's the 18-49 age group that seems to be getting the most cases. The 2 deaths have been males in their 50's and no medical history or any other info was given on them. RIP sirs. We're following the CDC guidelines as much as possible with hubby being on the front lines as a health care provider. He comes home at night and tosses everything straight into the washer and goes straight to the shower. So far, so good.


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## SilverMaple

Our grocery stores are empty. It's one week in. People are very worried--- more urban areas are getting the grocery shipments, not smaller towns. Those of us in smaller, rural areas are told they don't know when a truck will be able to resupply. Our small local grocer has not seen any of his last four shipments. Unless you want salad dressing or birdseed, there's nothing left on his shelves. We're looking at weeks and/or months of this and already there's no food in many areas? Now when the truck does arrive, people will hoard anything they can get not knowing when the next shipment may come. The larger regional chain grocery was able to fill only four items of our last order. 

Testing in the US is slowly increasing, but it seems the highest number of those affected are 18 - 49 years old. Whether the virus has mutated or whether this is the demographic least likely to adhere to the suggestions for 'stay at home' and 'social distancing' is unclear. Some say that since only celebrities, sports stars, rich people, and health care workers seem to be able to procure testing, that's the reason. Who knows. We're seeing positive cases popping up all around us--- either from one cruise to Egypt that was responsible for dozens of cases in our state, or health care workers, which tells us it's likely spreading exponentially in communities, but since testing is still so limited, the actual numbers aren't known, and likely won't be. Testing protocols in our area still require one to have traveled internationally, been in close contact with someone who has, or work in healthcare and show symptoms to procure a test.

Some data is showing that community spread is relatively hard to do, that most cases are close contact family members, and it would be better to let things go back to normal. But then we see cases of 40 people who attended one wedding all infected, and that seems to point to community spread being a lot easier than they think.


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## RegalCharm

@AuG and those others who might be thinking of butchering fowl or using the eggs for people food . If you have been feeding them feed with animal anti-biotics mixed in you should put them on a feed that doesn't have anti biotics in it for a while before using them as food or eggs for food.

So read the ingredients on the bags. 

I found this out when my Dad and I raised wild turkeys and decided to use the eggs.


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## RegalCharm

And for the folks who have Dish tv. They have added channel 212 Euronews for free so you can keep up with the latest from the eastern side of the atlantic.


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## Caledonian

We now have 499 cases and 14 deaths

Today our Chief Medical Officer said that it is spreading faster than expected. 

She said that it had "_become clear we were underestimating the doubling time of the virus, actually the number of cases was spreading more rapidly than the estimates which had come from China_". That the _"14 deaths probably represent 1000 people infected by each case"_ and the further"_23 people currently in intensive care likely represent around 400-500 people who have become infected through each of them". 
_
Our First Minister has called on all shops providing non-essential goods to close.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

I haven't read through all 704 posts, maybe it was mentioned, something I don't understand.
It seems to me there could be three groups: those who are asymptomatic therefore not tested but a virus carrier; those who ARE tested but get a false negative result; and those tested who truly are negative but exposed getting the virus 20 minutes after the test.
My point is testing is necessary and essential but may not have much value?
Then places in lockdown: they still have to go to the most essential places like grocery stores, fuel, etc. To be 99% effective (nothing is 100% I'm betting), one would have to have medical training to know what to do? Everything you touch probably has been touched by 50 people. So maybe going to the store with (proper) mask and gloves? Social distancing, then disposing mask/gloves before getting to your car? Washing hands in your car, washing everything at home you bought. Proper disposal of bags.
I read where Covid can last for days on surfaces and hours in the air. So a positive carrier can cough or sneeze at the grocery store, you go through that aisle 15 minutes later (that person is long gone) but you're exposed to it.
Any thoughts?


Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## SilverMaple

^ The problem with masks and gloves for the general public is that A) most people aren't trained in using them effectively, and thus it won't matter, and B.) There aren't any available. Same with hand sanitizer in many areas. All open buildings are supposed to be requiring everyone entering to use hand sanitizer, but there isn't any to have them use...


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## ACinATX

@Fuddyduddy1952 I'm ahead on my purchasing. Assume the virus can live for three days on a surface, and many hours in the air. I go to the grocery store (not wearing a mask) first thing in the morning and get what I need to get. I bring the stuff home. Wash my hands. Non-refrigerated items stay in the grocery bag for several days. Refrigerated items go in the fridge but I try not to touch them for a few days. I don't know if things have been touched by 50 people, but most things at the store would have only been touched *recently* by stockers (who are now often wearing gloves), the checkout person (also wearing gloves) and maybe one customer.

I have some alcohol wipes that have been sitting around for ages. I occasionally wipe my steering wheel and door handles.

All of the stores where I live are now open an extra hour or half hour before normal opening times, for older people and those with immune issues. So if that's you, I would urge you to take advantage of it.

To be considerate of others, I wash my hands thoroughly before leaving the house, don't touch anything I'm not going to buy (so much for feeling the avocados), and take my temperature twice a day (if it becomes elevated I will stay at home).


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## Foxhunter

The local hardware store was open this morning but they were dealing with customers at the door and fetching what they wanted. On the other hand a big DIY store was open and evidently crowded. I guess people are stocking up to do those jobs they never had time for.


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## ACinATX

Foxhunter said:


> The local hardware store was open this morning but they were dealing with customers at the door and fetching what they wanted. On the other hand a big DIY store was open and evidently crowded. I guess people are stocking up to do those jobs they never had time for.


Yup. My husband has decided the kitchen needs to be repainted. I was like, "yeah, go for it."


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## LoriF

Good words of wisdom


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## loosie

AuG said:


> I am in rural WA @loosie. I wanted to eat the drakes myself, but only have a little bar fridge at the moment, no freezer. Plus, I've never butchered a duck, as excited I am to try, it doesn't seem a smart time to be risking food poisoning haha.


Well U don't have to hang/age birds, so shouldn't be any risk if you ate them fresh & well cooked as there would be any other meat. Bummer you only have a bar fridge tho. You could always just do one at a time tho.


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## loosie

I wonder, has anything been put in place wherever people are from, for the homeless/poor?? They who have no means/supplies for staying at home?? I know 'soup kitchens' here have found it hard to get supplies too. And I suppose refugees have all been forgotten...


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## loosie

RegalCharm said:


> @AuG and those others who might be thinking of butchering fowl or using the eggs for people food .


Good point but over here at least, chicken/animal feed doesn't have that in it, as they recognise the issues of bugs becoming immune to anti-b's from overuse. But yeah there are also other supps, worming meds etc that have 'withholding periods'


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## loosie

So... CAN the virus be spread in the air now?? I understood it was large/heavy(as far as virus bugs go) & only transmitted in droplets, so didn't 'hang about in the air? That's why the 2m distance rule. And what are the facts as to how long it can survive on surfaces? 

Wonder what measures taken for supplies being cleaned or such. And what of foods such as salad plants eaten raw etc.. 

And Tiny, economic effects... My sisters & bro all out of work, husband not atm cos construction considered essential. Dole cues acres long yesterday, but even if ppl got seen... Cyberattack shut down the gov't website controlling all that!!


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## SwissMiss

loosie said:


> I wonder, has anything been put in place wherever people are from, for the homeless/poor?? They who have no means/supplies for staying at home?? I know 'soup kitchens' here have found it hard to get supplies too. And I suppose refugees have all been forgotten...


Here a substantial proportion of school kids qualifies for free meals... Now with the schools closed, those kids would go hungry. However, many schools, churches and our University hospital students for example, have stepped up and provide free (sealed) meals daily for kids under 18. No questions asked, just drive by and get it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

loosie said:


> Good point but over here at least, chicken/animal feed doesn't have that in it, as they recognise the issues of bugs becoming immune to anti-b's from overuse. But yeah there are also other supps, worming meds etc that have 'withholding periods'


Since we use our chickens for egg production, I have my chicks vaccinated for Marek's and Coccidiosis as day old chicks, and they are never fed a ration with added antibiotics. They're also NPIP certified and all go through a quarantine as soon as they arrive. Minimum 30 days but for day old chicks, usually more like 60 before they're integrated into the existing flocks. 

Just an update, found out we're now up to 81 CV19 cases statewide, so it's climbing.


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## SilverMaple

Every public school that I know of is offering pick-up meals for anyone in the district under 18 who need it, no questions asked. Most are also offering multiple meals at a time to also feed others in the family. The kids go to the pickup location, say how many meals they need, and leave with the food. Some districts are also keeping their bus drivers employed by delivering the meals on their regular routes. Our local districts are now actually feeding MORE kids than they usually do because so many people have lost jobs, and the stores have no food. Families that couldn't afford to stock up two weeks ago won't be able to buy food until the trucks come in, and who knows when that will be. 



We're currently feeding an elderly neighbor who has no family in the area. His fridge and shelves are empty, and there's nothing in the stores for him to buy, even if he would go out and about. Many elderly are in the same boat-- community congregate meals are cancelled, and 'meals on wheels' delivery has been halted.


Our local food pantries are empty, so that's an issue. The grocery stores and convenience stores are also nearly completely out of food and supplies, so there are a lot of folks traveling out and about looking for necessities who otherwise wouldn't be out. A friend just visited every store within a 2-hour radius looking for things her family needed and still didn't get most of it. Others aren't taking it seriously, or would rather 'get it now and get it over with before the hospitals are full.' So far our state has decided not to do a lock-down, but I think it's coming. Too many people are out and about, even those coughing and sneezing. I've had a prescription that needs to be picked up at the pharmacy but every time I drive by, there are a dozen cars out front and the place is packed and I don't stop.


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## SilverMaple

loosie said:


> So... CAN the virus be spread in the air now?? I understood it was large/heavy(as far as virus bugs go) & only transmitted in droplets, so didn't 'hang about in the air? That's why the 2m distance rule. And what are the facts as to how long it can survive on surfaces?
> 
> Wonder what measures taken for supplies being cleaned or such. And what of foods such as salad plants eaten raw etc..
> 
> And Tiny, economic effects... My sisters & bro all out of work, husband not atm cos construction considered essential. Dole cues acres long yesterday, but even if ppl got seen... Cyberattack shut down the gov't website controlling all that!!



One study I read showed that droplets could be detected in the air from 1-3 hours after dispersal. Now, whether that is accurate or not (they sprayed the virus into the air from a bottle, rather than a cough or sneeze) could be debated, but it would account for some of the ease of spread. If someone coughs into the air in, say, the pharmacy and then someone walks into that same area 5 minutes later, it's certainly possible they could then inhale some of the air-borne droplets and be infected. So much depends on conditions, too--- humidity, air temperature, etc. 



Surfaces are showing anywhere from a few hours to several days, depending on the surface.


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## tinyliny

There is a difference between being able to detect viral material on a surface some days after contamination, and that viral material being viable enough to infect you. The virus starts to degrade quite rapidly outside of a host. Still, I do as @ACinTX does; I leave groceries purchased in the car for 48 hours (excepting vegetable, whcih will be cooked anyway). This should be sufficient. 



To be infected you need a certain amount of viral material. one or two probably won't suffice. you need a certain 'load' to become infected.


If groceries become scarce, the government should implement an every other day sort of shopping scheme. Or, a once a week chance. figure a way to limit the number of shoppers in each day. limit the number of things they can buy, too.


There is NOOOOO reason for there to be a shortage of food. There is plenty of food out there, and the supply chain is functioning. It is only because many are hoarding that we have this trouble. But, if they knew that they had a guaranteed day to shop, and the essentials would be there, trouble would lessen.


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## Horsef

loosie said:


> I wonder, has anything been put in place wherever people are from, for the homeless/poor?? They who have no means/supplies for staying at home?? I know 'soup kitchens' here have found it hard to get supplies too. And I suppose refugees have all been forgotten...


We (Serbia) don’t have many homeless people and they seem to have disappeared off the streets a while ago. I’m guessing they were placed in some sort of housing. Generally, the problem wasn’t accommodation but that they couldn’t drink and do drugs in those facilities. That’s why they were on the streets. I guess they weren’t given a choice any more. But these are tiny numbers, 200 people at the most.

However, we are on the immigration route from Middle East and Africa to Western Europe. We are lucky that we already had all those people housed in temporary refugee settlements - not tents but proper buildings with full sanitation and medical facilities. They used to have freedom of movement but that’s been curtailed almost immediately. Well, like the rest of us.

I have to wander what the situation is in Italy and Greece. Those two countries were hardest hit by the refugee wave on European soil. I can’t even imagine what the situation is in Turkey, which has 3 million refugees.

One rather large issue in Europe is informal settlements which Roma people live in. They are often under-serviced with infrastructure. I don’t know what’s happening there. Generally, Roma people are resistant to being on any kind of government list or census for historical reasons as they were one of the main targets in the Holocaust. I have noticed there are very few of them out and about. I guess they retreated on their own and shut themselves in even before the official lock down.


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## SilverMaple

tinyliny said:


> There is a difference between being able to detect viral material on a surface some days after contamination, and that viral material being viable enough to infect you. The virus starts to degrade quite rapidly outside of a host.
> 
> To be infected you need a certain amount of viral material. one or two probably won't suffice. you need a certain 'load' to become infected.


That's true, but we don't know the viral load needed for this disease. Most likely it's less than for flu, etc. as we have no immune memory of it. 

We're hoping that one the larger stores get restocked, it will 'trickle down' into our more rural areas. Fingers crossed, anyway. My mom shopped at their store this morning for some necessities-- she was able to get what she needed as she's a senior citizen and can shop in the earlier times. A friend of hers who went an hour later found that toilet paper, meat, bread, bananas, and eggs were sold out already. Mom said she was able to get one small pack of TP, some frozen chicken, some fresh veggies, and eggs which was really all she needed. They were still out of cheese, oatmeal, rice, beans, and anything canned/frozen.


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## Spanish Rider

I feel like I am walking a tightrope, not wanting to err on the side of sharing too much information and creating stress for others, but also wanting to get the word out about what is really happening. There is such use and misuse of information by politicians, however, that I really think it's important to share our current reality here in Spain.


Day 9 of official lockdown, and day 12 of my family's quarantine:

We are now over 33,000 known infected, up 14% in 24 h.

2200 deaths, 462 in last 24 h.

We have been told to expect a big jump in numbers again around mid-April, but I have not seen convincing data to support that. Perhaps it is a scare-tactic to keep people inside to avoid another spike. At this point, whatever works.

The municipal morgue in Madrid cannot handle the volume. They are now using the municipal ice-skating complex. Seniors are being found dead in nursing homes.

Hospitals all over the country continue to lack PPE and other resources. There are now more infected healthcare workers in Spain than in any other country. A public hospital in southern Spain set up an account for people to make donations, and they were able to purchase more masks and ventilators. But, they fear they will be expropriated by the central government. They accuse Madrid of hoarding and taking the ventilators out of provincial ambulances to be sent to the capital.

Even China is now using us as propaganda, saying they are sending a trainful of masks and medical supplies. *Whaaaat?!* There are no rail-lines to Spain from China, and with border-crossings, customs paperwork for dozens of countries in between and transfers of train cars/goods, the projection is that the material will arrive in 7 weeks. 

Our country is not a manufacturing country. We are the bread-basket of central & northern Europe, and our economy is based on agriculture and tourism. So, we do not have large-scale manufacturers like GM, etc, to make ventilators and other materials. There have been smaller initiatives, however, of workshops making surgical masks and engineering students making ventilator parts with 3D printers.

At work, we are publishing surgical guidelines for treating suspected/confirmed COVID19 patients. Splatter and spray are a major factor.

My son and I have not left the house since the 12th, and my husband has only gone out in the car twice to throw out the trash.

I was able to find a "bio" farmer's co-op that delivers and placed an order, which will arrive this Thursday. I went back to add eggs to the order and found that they are sold out of everything for delivery this week and are now taking orders for next Thursday, April 2nd. My husband could go to the supermarket in the next town over, but the anxiety of waiting 14 days to see if one of us gets sick is not worth it.

Today is our 29th anniversary since we started dating. We are still sleeping apart, although our coughs are better. My son actually dared give me a hug today. Tomorrow is his birthday. Thursday will be day 15 since we spent the day in the airport in Madrid trying to get our eldest son and my mum out of Spain. I think by this weekend I will feel safe enough to actually sleep in the same bed with my husband again.


On a positive note, the WHO is starting a mega-clinical trial, which I am sure you know. I am happy to see them taking a more pro-active role.


----------



## Animalia

Some good news, for the USA anyway

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/sup...that-could-be-less-available-in-pandemic.html


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## Animalia

Spanish Rider said:


> I feel like I am walking a tightrope, not wanting to err on the side of sharing too much information and creating stress for others, but also wanting to get the word out about what is really happening. There is such use and misuse of information by politicians, however, that I really think it's important to share our current reality here in Spain.
> 
> 
> Day 9 of official lockdown, and day 12 of my family's quarantine:
> 
> We are now over 33,000 known infected, up 14% in 24 h.
> 
> 2200 deaths, 462 in last 24 h.
> 
> We have been told to expect a big jump in numbers again around mid-April, but I have not seen convincing data to support that. Perhaps it is a scare-tactic to keep people inside to avoid another spike. At this point, whatever works.
> 
> The municipal morgue in Madrid cannot handle the volume. They are now using the municipal ice-skating complex. Seniors are being found dead in nursing homes.
> 
> Hospitals all over the country continue to lack PPE and other resources. There are now more infected healthcare workers in Spain than in any other country. A public hospital in southern Spain set up an account for people to make donations, and they were able to purchase more masks and ventilators. But, they fear they will be expropriated by the central government. They accuse Madrid of hoarding and taking the ventilators out of provincial ambulances to be sent to the capital.
> 
> Even China is now using us as propaganda, saying they are sending a trainful of masks and medical supplies. *Whaaaat?!* There are no rail-lines to Spain from China, and with border-crossings, customs paperwork for dozens of countries in between and transfers of train cars/goods, the projection is that the material will arrive in 7 weeks.
> 
> Our country is not a manufacturing country. We are the bread-basket of central & northern Europe, and our economy is based on agriculture and tourism. So, we do not have large-scale manufacturers like GM, etc, to make ventilators and other materials. There have been smaller initiatives, however, of workshops making surgical masks and engineering students making ventilator parts with 3D printers.
> 
> At work, we are publishing surgical guidelines for treating suspected/confirmed COVID19 patients. Splatter and spray are a major factor.
> 
> My son and I have not left the house since the 12th, and my husband has only gone out in the car twice to throw out the trash.
> 
> I was able to find a "bio" farmer's co-op that delivers and placed an order, which will arrive this Thursday. I went back to add eggs to the order and found that they are sold out of everything for delivery this week and are now taking orders for next Thursday, April 2nd. My husband could go to the supermarket in the next town over, but the anxiety of waiting 14 days to see if one of us gets sick is not worth it.
> 
> Today is our 29th anniversary since we started dating. We are still sleeping apart, although our coughs are better. My son actually dared give me a hug today. Tomorrow is his birthday. Thursday will be day 15 since we spent the day in the airport in Madrid trying to get our eldest son and my mum out of Spain. I think by this weekend I will feel safe enough to actually sleep in the same bed with my husband again.
> 
> 
> On a positive note, the WHO is starting a mega-clinical trial, which I am sure you know. I am happy to see them taking a more pro-active role.



I'm so sorry this has all been so hard. We are so spoiled in America. We really don't have any idea how bad this is in other countries. I myself am high risk and haven't left the house in two weeks--except for short outdoor walks and to ride my horse once per week. But it's nothing compared to what's happening in your country. Sending positive thoughts.


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## Horsef

@Spanish Rider I didn’t want to Like your post because I don’t think “Like” is appropriate under the circumstances. But thank you for posting. I am very sorry to hear about all that suffering and fear. And it scares me as well. It is important to get the stories out.

As far as Chinese help is concerned, Serbia is getting A LOT from China. Respirators, masks, medication, all sorts of things. We fly our planes over there, they fill them up, they come back. Rinse and repeat. No paperwork in a state of emergency is needed. We also got a team of their experts - and they seem to be sharing their knowledge enthusiastically. They are helping us immensely and all political sentiments aside, we are all very grateful. There will be some serious reconsiderations of alignment after this is finished. Even though we are EU candidates, we aren’t even on the radar for EU leaders (understandably). China is giving us literally everything we asked for. And I mean literally - we gave them a list and they said send the planes. 

The Chinese experts landed on Saturday. Today it was announced we will be implementing the “Chinese protocol”. Here is what it entails:

- widespread testing of all people who were in contact with the infected regardless of symptoms. Also, testing of second, third and fourth degrees of contact. We have enough tests for first two days, more are on their way from China.

- mandatory quarantine at government facilities for all positive cases regardless of symptoms. Big trade centers and basketball arenas have been set up with beds. About 6000 to start with, more to come if needed.

- one thing they did in China which we will not be doing for now is putting entire families in quarantine if one member is positive.

- people older than 65 on full lockdown (for 6 days already).

- soft lock down during the day - no public transportation, companies are mostly closed except for essential industries. Everyone is allowed to move, but heavily discouraged from doing so. No gatherings larger than 5. No access to parks and sporting facilities. Restaurants and such have been closed for a while. Chinese experts believe this is ok if people are disciplined about social contact and hygiene, no need for a full mandatory lock down for now.

- full lock down after 5PM - no one is allowed on the streets. 

We currently have 249 proven cases and 3 deaths. One very hopeful statistic is that 97% of our cases have been fully traced to origin. Even the Chinese were impressed.

According to the Chinese, if we don’t go around licking door handles at post offices, we will be in the clear in 28 days. There is a province in China which is similar in size and initial numbers and they cleared it in that amount of time.

So, hopefully this works.

I am not sure if it would work in Western Europe or US because legality of mandatory quarantine most probably isn’t in line with human rights - but no one is complaining here. Also, jail sentences for breaking the rules were announced to be 3-12 years in jail, no parole under any circumstances. And we believe them. 

I keep thinking about something a young friend of mine said about a month ago (on an unrelated topic):

There are no human rights, only temporary privileges.
Clever boy.


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## rambo99

The cases of covid-19 are exploding an fast. Down south almost every county has cases.

Our county has a confirm case as of yesterday. County east of us also has a confirmed case. Had to go get milk today ,as we go through a lot of milk a gallon a day with 4 kids.

Have powdered milk. So after store bought is gone will be time to mix up powdered milk. Have plenty of it to last probably 5 months worth maybe more. 

Stores are well stocked only thing they don't have is hand sanitizers. I went early so no one else ,was In store but people who work there. 

Was nice to get out of here much needed time alone. I'm going to go crazy. Kids are gonna drive me to drinking hard liquor. 



Probably won't be long an our state will go into lock down.


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## trailhorserider

I went to our local grocery store, Safeway today. They were much more well stocked that last week. Plenty of milk, eggs and even bread! Even tortillas! I don't know why, but I haven't been able to get flour tortillas in my last several trips to the store. 

Meat selection is not the best, but there is still meat available, just the more expensive stuff. Plenty of steaks and the chicken breasts I bought were 2.99 a pound........$15 for a pack of chicken breasts. :| But hey, at least they had some meat there to buy. They were supposed to have some dark chicken for an incredible 67 cents a pound but of course there was none. 

Canned goods.......gesh, I wanted to get more refried beans to make bean burritos but there weren't any. But I still have a few cans in the pantry, so the bean burros can go on.

So that's my shopping report. I didn't spend much time in produce, but it looked like a good selection.

You know what they don't have a lick of though........any paper products. Not just toilet paper, no paper towels or napkins either. We haven't bought any toilet paper since this whole crisis started, but at some point we will need to. I'm trying to cut back on what I use. :redface:


----------



## Horsef

What is it with first world and toilet paper?

I promise you guys, in a real crisis, when there are real shortages - toilet paper doesn’t even feature as an issue. No, meat doesn’t feature either because you need electricity to keep it and you need lots of gas to keep your generator running. If you want to stockpile it, buy dried or canned meat.

Here is a list of top 10 in order of importance:

Clean water or a way to purify dirty water
Your prescription medication
Cash or cash equivalents (like cigarettes)
Coal or wood and a stove to burn it in
Flour
Oil
Candles
Gas
Portable radio and batteries
Soap

These are also first to run out, especially cash, gas, flour and oil. Medication is also very precarious.
Clean water usually goes last. I never got that far.

I could name another 20 before I got to toilet paper.
Toilet paper? Seriously?


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

@Horsef, I totally agree with you. It is really a minority of the first world people who are buying out all the toilet paper and making things uncomfortable for the rest of us. The people who comment about toilet paper are the ones who have seen it all bought off the shelves and thought, "what is going on??" They have actually started to station employees in the toilet paper aisles so that people cannot buy more than one package per person at a time.

I do think it's funny that you say cash equivalents, like cigarettes. In my area, cigarettes would be completely worthless in a true social collapse. You think it's silly for us to hoard toilet paper as a non-essential, but we would think it very silly of you to hoard cigarettes as a non-essential.

It is taking a while for us Westerners to let go of our meats. I am a vegetarian, so I can only sit back and observe the masses on that issue right now. First world people (generally/statistically speaking) just love their meats so much that they can't imagine their meals without it. They are more worried about meat than they are worried about non-perishables. It is a silly mistake to waste all your money on meats in a crisis.


----------



## trailhorserider

Horsef said:


> What is it with first world and toilet paper?
> 
> I promise you guys, in a real crisis, when there are real shortages - toilet paper doesn’t even feature as an issue. No, meat doesn’t feature either because you need electricity to keep it and you need lots of gas to keep your generator running. If you want to stockpile it, buy dried or canned meat.
> 
> Here is a list of top 10 in order of importance:
> 
> Clean water or a way to purify dirty water
> Your prescription medication
> Cash or cash equivalents (like cigarettes)
> Coal or wood and a stove to burn it in
> Flour
> Oil
> Candles
> Gas
> Portable radio and batteries
> Soap
> 
> These are also first to run out, especially cash, gas, flour and oil. Medication is also very precarious.
> Clean water usually goes last. I never got that far.
> 
> I could name another 20 before I got to toilet paper.
> Toilet paper? Seriously?


I was just reporting about what was in stock at the store. Not my list of "must haves" for a zombie apocalypse. 

Regarding cigarettes, do that many people even smoke anymore? I can think of _one_ person I know that smokes......that's it. And cigarettes are even less essential than toilet paper in a crisis. I mean really, people are dying of pneumonia and people are going to be trading cigarettes?


----------



## RegalCharm

@Aprilswissmiss well I got a stock of different whiskeys for in case I need to barter. LOL I can understand cigarettes' being used for barter also. :hide: I smoke. :hide: 

In my (Ohio) county 2 people tested positive . 1 is out of quarantine (14 days) along with the people they were in contact with and 1 is still in the hospital. 

I haven't been out to the stores for over 2 weeks so I have no idea of what is or isn't on the shelves. But I do need to go and get some stuff as I am running low.


----------



## rambo99

trailhorserider said:


> I was just reporting about what was in stock at the store. Not my list of "must haves" for a zombie apocalypse.
> 
> Regarding cigarettes, do that many people even smoke anymore? I can think of _one_ person I know that smokes......that's it. And cigarettes are even less essential than toilet paper in a crisis. I mean really, people are dying of pneumonia and people are going to be trading cigarettes?


You never know about the cigarettes I know people who smoke ,and they'll do anything for cigarettes. 

Guess though if you're dieing of pneumonia that would be last thing you'd be thinking about. 

Think the toilet paper hoarders have there supply now at least locally. Noticed the limit on how many packages you can buy is gone now. 

On a different note I found this today pretty funny.


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

We have 43 confirmed cases in my county. Makes sense, we're a stone's throw away from Philadelphia. Surprisingly, we have not been put on any sort of lockdown or curfew or shelter-in-place yet, though they're discussing it. People are still out and about, driving, walking their dogs, stopping to talk on the trails...


----------



## Foxhunter

Basically lockdown has happened here. 

Not allowed out bar once a day, no more than two people allowed together unless they are the same family. 

So, I will get the dogs out and that is it. 

As for food, I will be fine. I have not stock piled at all, I purchase what I need. I do have a big freezer full of dinners I made previously, a whole lamb, some pork and a mutton. Also some veggies I froze last year. 

My kitchen cupboard has plenty of necessities, I buy tins when they are on offer. 

Two pharmacies in town, one a big chain, Boots and the other not so big, Joots. The latter was selling paracetamol for £9 a packet when they are normally a few pence. Stuff them. Big outcry and the price has now dropped don't know to what as I never use them. 

GPs are appointment only, restricting the number in the waiting room. 

Looting had begun. A school was broken into, several big freezers plus contents and all pantry foods taken. The school was open to children of key workers.


----------



## Horsef

trailhorserider said:


> I was just reporting about what was in stock at the store. Not my list of "must haves" for a zombie apocalypse.
> 
> Regarding cigarettes, do that many people even smoke anymore? I can think of _one_ person I know that smokes......that's it. And cigarettes are even less essential than toilet paper in a crisis. I mean really, people are dying of pneumonia and people are going to be trading cigarettes?


For sure. A lot of former smokers take up smoking again in highly stressful situations. Nicotine is a powerful drug. There is no reasoning to it. But I’ve seen it first hand. If there are a lot of former smokers in your area - cigarettes would be in high demand. I don’t think I’ve ever seen people trade for cigarettes, but rather sell them for cash at inflated prices.

It doesn’t necessarily need to be cigarettes. Some goods store value better than cash. Gas is another but you need storage facilities. Heroin and benzodiazepines as well - but not many people have access to it nor would they know how to sell it.

This isn’t a REAL SHORTAGE yet. Not by a long shot. Production is working. Logistics are working. Even import is working for essentials.


----------



## Foxhunter

A friend who works in a large store says that they have the supplies but getting them delivered and onto the shelves with the panic buying is another matter. 

This store has closed the deli counters so more staff can be restocking. 

Just going out with the dogs, beautiful spring sunny day here, which cannot be fully enjoyed because of the hidden dangers of this virus.


----------



## Horsef

Foxhunter said:


> Looting had begun. A school was broken into, several big freezers plus contents and all pantry foods taken. The school was open to children of key workers.


Oh my God!

Let’s call it theft. Unless there was a crowd who overwhelmed staff in broad daylight, it is theft. I hope...


----------



## BzooZu

Horsef said:


> We (Serbia) don’t have many homeless people and they seem to have disappeared off the streets a while ago. I’m guessing they were placed in some sort of housing. Generally, the problem wasn’t accommodation but that they couldn’t drink and do drugs in those facilities. That’s why they were on the streets. I guess they weren’t given a choice any more. But these are tiny numbers, 200 people at the most.
> 
> However, we are on the immigration route from Middle East and Africa to Western Europe. We are lucky that we already had all those people housed in temporary refugee settlements - not tents but proper buildings with full sanitation and medical facilities. They used to have freedom of movement but that’s been curtailed almost immediately. Well, like the rest of us.
> 
> I have to wander what the situation is in Italy and Greece. Those two countries were hardest hit by the refugee wave on European soil. I can’t even imagine what the situation is in Turkey, which has 3 million refugees.
> 
> One rather large issue in Europe is informal settlements which Roma people live in. They are often under-serviced with infrastructure. I don’t know what’s happening there. Generally, Roma people are resistant to being on any kind of government list or census for historical reasons as they were one of the main targets in the Holocaust. I have noticed there are very few of them out and about. I guess they retreated on their own and shut themselves in even before the official lock down.


Our homeless people have also disappeared (dont have many of them in the first place and its still winter here), though we do not have food shortage here and the shops are full so probably not much changed for them.

For our Roma villages (that there are many of, but here they are formal, legal setllements). There are attempts to send help there but they are mostly ignoring all warnings. The hygiene in those villages was already inadequate before the COVID-19 and even with our government sending masks, soaps, medicine, etc there, they just dont care. 

For any working parent if they are home with their kid (10 and less yo ) - schools still closed - they are getting state support as they do when they stay at home with a sick kid. So at least they are not left completely without money, even if its not the as much as a regular wages/salaries.


----------



## BzooZu

@Spanish Rider Its surprising that you are not getting help from China. We (Slovakia) certainly are. Its the same as @Horsef said: we send a plane, they fill it up with protection gear, medicine, tests etc and it flies back home and the items are further redistributed to our hospitals.
No idea what it is costing us ( an arm and a leg probably ) but its getting here before we actually need it.




Horsef said:


> What is it with first world and toilet paper?
> ...
> Toilet paper? Seriously?


Thats my question too - maybe our media just didnt hit the toilet paper jackpot? According to what I am seeing people are mostly buying soap, flour, rice and other non-perishable foods. But even so, the initial craziness died off and you dont see many people wandering around shops. (Even though we are not on a lock down .... yet.)


----------



## Horsef

This is what our quarantine for asymptomatic people and people with light symptoms will look like.

Not exactly luxurious, but serviceable. 
I am guessing some people will resist but I get a feeling they will be forced if they don't want to go willingly.
Is it human rights abuse? I have no idea, but no one has complained so far.


----------



## ACinATX

@trailhorserider so funny, stores have been out of flour tortillas here, too. Since last week. It turns out I actually like corn tortilla quesadillas, to my surprise.

I find @Horsef 's story about the Chinese really fascinating. China is using this to increase its soft power, which eventually should lead to an increase in actual power. In Europe! Pay attention, EU. And the US -- we do nothing because we can't even get our act together over here. Even people who think Covid19 is no big deal should pay attention. It's the beginning of the end of the current geopolitical age. You all heard it on Horse Forum first!

I think the quote about "no human rights" is really interesting as well. Personally, I tend to agree, ultimately -- I mean, this is all just a societal construct, not anything really bestowed on us by nature of God. But still, in the context, it's quite telling. 

It's amazing. I read the news, I listen to the radio. And yet here on Horse Forum is where I really get stories from thoughtful, well-written people, about what's happening in the rest of the world. Thank you @Spanish Rider for starting this thread. Thank you so much!

As for stuff to barter, I still have my gold stashed away somewhere. I don't think it will come to that, but who knows. And of course all of that TP my husband bought two months ago...


----------



## Horsef

BzooZu said:


> Thats my question too - maybe our media just didnt hit the toilet paper jackpot? According to what I am seeing people are mostly buying soap, flour, rice and other non-perishable foods. But even so, the initial craziness died off and you dont see many people wandering around shops. (Even though we are not on a lock down .... yet.)


A lot of Eastern European countries have gone through periods of real shortages in the past.
We know the drill, unfortunately.

Also, most people in our countries aren't as well off - we can't waste money on silly fads.


----------



## ACinATX

@Horsef I just wanted to be clear, I'm not criticizing you or your country. You're doing the right thing by taking the help that is being offered. I just think it's interesting in the bigger picture. China is demonstrating to the world that THEY are the ones you want to have as your friends.


----------



## loosie

SCAM / HOAX ALERT!!!

COVID-19 SCAM ALERT!!!

This elaborate hoax has been circulating. It has just enough truth in it, and usually purported to be from major hospitals, that it's getting past people's radars! Spread the word people, about malicious misinformation...

-----

From My friend who works at Royal Melbourne hospital in HR. tonight .. ❤🙏🏽

FYI 

Dear Friends, this is advice given to hospital staff. Explains the virus and how to prevent the virus. Please share with family , friends and work colleagues. Cheers Jos 
Internal email for RBH (Royal Brisbane Hospital) staff:

Virus Detection:

The simplest way to distinguish Coronavirus from a Common Cold is that the COVID-19 infection does not cause a cold nose or cough with cold, but it does create a dry and rough cough.
The virus is typically first installed in the throat causing inflammation and a feeling of dryness. This symptom can last between 3 and 4 days.
The virus typically then travels through the moisture present in the airways, goes down to the trachea and installs in the lungs, causing pneumonia that lasts about 5 or 6 days.
Pneumonia manifests with a high fever and difficulty breathing. The Common Cold is not accompanied, but there may be a choking sensation. In this case, the doctor should be called immediately.

Experts suggest doing this simple verification every morning: Breathe in deeply and hold your breath for 10 seconds. If this can be done without coughing, without difficulty, this shows that there is no fibrosis in the lungs, indicating the absence of infection. It is recommended to do this control every morning to help detect infection.

Prevention:
The virus hates heat and dies if it is exposed to temperatures greater than 80°F (27°C). Therefore hot drinks such as infusions, broths or simply hot water should be consumed abundantly during the day. These hot liquids kill the virus and are easy to ingest.
Avoid drinking ice water or drinks with ice cubes.

Ensure that your mouth and throat are always wet, never DRY. You should drink a sip of water at least every 15 minutes. WHY? Even when the virus enters water or other liquids through the mouth, it will get flushed through the oesophagus directly into the stomach where gastric acids destroy the virus. If there is not enough water, the virus can pass into the trachea and from there to the lungs, where it is very dangerous.

For those who can, sunbathe. The Sun's UV rays kill the virus and the vitamin D is good for you.
The Coronavirus has a large size (diameter of 400-500 nanometers) so face masks can stop it, no special face masks are needed in daily life.
If an infected person sneezes near us, stay 10 feet (3.3 meters) away to allow the virus fall to the ground and pr....


----------



## Horsef

ACinATX said:


> @
> 
> I find [MENTION=185066]Horsef 's story about the Chinese really fascinating. China is using this to increase its soft power, which eventually should lead to an increase in actual power. In Europe! Pay attention, EU. And the US -- we do nothing because we can't even get our act together over here. Even people who think Covid19 is no big deal should pay attention. It's the beginning of the end of the current geopolitical age. You all heard it on Horse Forum first!


A lot of Eastern European countries are getting help from China. They truly are on an offensive.

I get a distinct feeling of Rome falling. This is usually how empires end - structural defects creep in which aren't noticeable during good times. One big crisis wipes it all out and if there is a country which is in good shape at the time - the other country takes over supremacy.

Rant, feel free to skip>

_I've erased my political rant, I apologize to anyone who saw it_.

Sorry, end of rant - please forgive me if I offended anyone.


----------



## Horsef

ACinATX said:


> @Horsef I just wanted to be clear, I'm not criticizing you or your country. You're doing the right thing by taking the help that is being offered. I just think it's interesting in the bigger picture. China is demonstrating to the world that THEY are the ones you want to have as your friends.


No need, I didn't take it as such at all.

I find it fascinating as well. It's like a game of Risk in real life - ughhh.

One thing I noticed about China - they will make friends where they can, but avoid making enemies. They avoid conflict when they don't have a lot to gain. Very different approach to the currently prevailing foreign policies in the Western world.


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

loosie said:


> Prevention:
> The virus hates heat and dies if it is exposed to temperatures greater than 80°F (27°C). Therefore hot drinks such as infusions, broths or simply hot water should be consumed abundantly during the day. These hot liquids kill the virus and are easy to ingest.
> Avoid drinking ice water or drinks with ice cubes.


I hope people realize that the internal body temperature of humans is well above 80°F, so if that was true, we would automatically be immune to the virus :| Not to mention all of the other inaccuracies and lies, especially the "large enough to be filtered by a mask" that has been told time and time again is simply NOT true.

What do people hope to gain by spreading blatant misinformation like this?


----------



## Animalia

I don't know what people hope to gain by spreading false information on purpose--except getting their jollies. But the thing is, I'm pretty sure not all of the stuff in that email is untrue. For instance, Sunglight and fresh air are very good at combating the virus. Fresh air is naturally disinfecting and so is UV light. I think the heat thing is referring to when the virus is outside the body. According to medical stuff I've read and been told by my doctor's office, this virus is easy to kill when it's outside the human body. In the air and on surfaces it CAN be killed by very hot water and scrubbing with soap. Vigorous washing and scrubbing breaks open the virus cell wall "armor" and kills it. It can be detected in the air and on surfaces for certain amounts of time, but it will dissipate/die off to a large extent once it's "outside". 



I think the drinking different temperature liquids is most likely BS and don't know about the "breathing test", that sounds pretty far fetched. I guess this is how "hoaxes" work best, when they incorporate some truths.


----------



## egrogan

Not related to virus misinformation, but another instance of people being awful for no reason- since so many people are using Zoom, including for public livestreams of arts, music, book clubs, etc., there is suddenly a wave of "Zoom crashers" who are joining public meetings and then taking them over to screenshare hard-core porn until the organizers can quickly shut the whole meeting down. What in the world is wrong with people?!


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

Animalia said:


> I don't know what people hope to gain by spreading false information on purpose--except getting their jollies. But the thing is, I'm pretty sure not all of the stuff in that email is untrue. For instance, Sunglight and fresh air are very good at combating the virus. Fresh air is naturally disinfecting and so is UV light. I think the heat thing is referring to when the virus is outside the body. According to medical stuff I've read and been told by my doctor's office, this virus is easy to kill when it's outside the human body. In the air and on surfaces it CAN be killed by very hot water and scrubbing with soap. Vigorous washing and scrubbing breaks open the virus cell wall "armor" and kills it. It can be detected in the air and on surfaces for certain amounts of time, but it will dissipate/die off to a large extent once it's "outside".
> 
> 
> 
> I think the drinking different temperature liquids is most likely BS and don't know about the "breathing test", that sounds pretty far fetched. I guess this is how "hoaxes" work best, when they incorporate some truths.


The thing is that most information can be misinterpreted. For example - when you say "fresh air is disinfecting" - that is not necessarily true, but you need to break down what that actually means. Will exposure to fresh air destroy the virus? No, it's just like any other air. Will being _outside_ decrease the chances of virulent spread? Yes (in some cases), because large open spaces decrease the concentration of the virus and thus decrease the likelihood of reaching the virulent threshold in people who are exposed. Of course, this isn't going to be true if you walk outside and there are hundreds of people all standing close to one another.

Is UV light disinfecting? Yes, it will create pyrimidine dimers in genetic material and thus disrupt the genetic material and often leads to destruction of microorganisms. However, it is only effective on surfaces - it does not penetrate. It will not destroy the virus if it's inside you. It may, however, destroy the virus if it is sitting on your hand, but at that rate, it is more effective to wash your hands.

So far, the CDC has not confirmed any temperature that will destroy COVID-19. They have information on previous coronaviruses but the information does not necessarily transfer.


----------



## loosie

COVID-19 SCAM/HOAX ALERT!!!

This elaborate hoax has been circulating. It has enough truth in it, and usually purported to be from major hospitals, that it's getting past people's radars! Spread the word people, about malicious misinformation...

-----
From My friend who works at Royal Melbourne hospital in HR. tonight .. ❤🙏🏽

FYI 

Dear Friends, this is advice given to hospital staff. Explains the virus and how to prevent the virus. Please share with family , friends and work colleagues. Cheers Jos 
Internal email for RBH (Royal Brisbane Hospital) staff:

Virus Detection:

The simplest way to distinguish Coronavirus from a Common Cold is that the COVID-19 infection does not cause a cold nose or cough with cold, but it does create a dry and rough cough.
The virus is typically first installed in the throat causing inflammation and a feeling of dryness. This symptom can last between 3 and 4 days.
The virus typically then travels through the moisture present in the airways, goes down to the trachea and installs in the lungs, causing pneumonia that lasts about 5 or 6 days.
Pneumonia manifests with a high fever and difficulty breathing. The Common Cold is not accompanied, but there may be a choking sensation. In this case, the doctor should be called immediately.

Experts suggest doing this simple verification every morning: Breathe in deeply and hold your breath for 10 seconds. If this can be done without coughing, without difficulty, this shows that there is no fibrosis in the lungs, indicating the absence of infection. It is recommended to do this control every morning to help detect infection.

Prevention:
The virus hates heat and dies if it is exposed to temperatures greater than 80°F (27°C). Therefore hot drinks such as infusions, broths or simply hot water should be consumed abundantly during the day. These hot liquids kill the virus and are easy to ingest.
Avoid drinking ice water or drinks with ice cubes.

Ensure that your mouth and throat are always wet, never DRY. You should drink a sip of water at least every 15 minutes. WHY? Even when the virus enters water or other liquids through the mouth, it will get flushed through the oesophagus directly into the stomach where gastric acids destroy the virus. If there is not enough water, the virus can pass into the trachea and from there to the lungs, where it is very dangerous.

For those who can, sunbathe. The Sun's UV rays kill the virus and the vitamin D is good for you.
The Coronavirus has a large size (diameter of 400-500 nanometers) so face masks can stop it, no special face masks are needed in daily life.
If an infected person sneezes near us, stay 10 feet (3.3 meters) away to allow the virus fall to the ground and pr...


----------



## RegalCharm

Horsef said:


> One thing I noticed about China - they will make friends where they can, but avoid making enemies. They avoid conflict when they don't have a lot to gain. Very different approach to the currently prevailing foreign policies in the Western world.


not quiet true as China will push to get what they want. Like China's building Islands and then claiming it as part of their territorially waters. That effected Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam and the Philippians. As a couple of the countries had claims long before China built islands. 

But these countries are not a threat and China knows this. The U.S. will sent navy ships through these waters and China protests the U.S. doing this. And their navy ships harass ours but they know not to go to far and cause any damage to the U.S. ships. 

China will eventually ask for something from the countries they are helping and it will seem small at first and these countries will probably ok China's request as they feel they owe China for their help. Thus China gets their foot in the door.


----------



## Horsef

RegalCharm said:


> not quiet true as China will push to get what they want. Like China's building Islands and then claiming it as part of their territorially waters. That effected Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam and the Philippians. As a couple of the countries had claims long before China built islands.
> 
> But these countries are not a threat and China knows this. The U.S. will sent navy ships through these waters and China protests the U.S. doing this. And their navy ships harass ours but they know not to go to far and cause any damage to the U.S. ships.
> 
> China will eventually ask for something from the countries they are helping and it will seem small at first and these countries will probably ok China's request as they feel they owe China for their help. Thus China gets their foot in the door.


For sure, on both counts. They have a lot to gain on both.

I personally am weary of their help but it’s not like we have a choice. So we’ll see how it develops.


----------



## farmpony84

*Moderator Note*

All- With the understanding that this is a global issue and therefore countries, political parties, and policies will not doubt be a part of the handling of this pandemic, please do your best to refrain from including anything less than facts (i.e. opinion and personal affiliations) from this thread.

We appreciate all members of this forum and understand this is a very important thread.


27 Political Discussions 
We ask that members please not start any political threads anywhere on the forum. 
If there is a general news item or horse related news topic then it is permissible to discuss it in the General Off Topic area.
Threads or posts that resemble political discussions or have a strong potential to become political discussions will promptly be removed.
If you are in any doubt about any current affairs topic that you would like to start a thread on, please contact the Team using a Talk to the Team thread to discuss the subject matter in advance.


----------



## ACinATX

Well, our city has issued a "shelter in place" order. However, there are exceptions to take care of pets and to participate in outdoor activities (maintaining social distance) so I'm going to read that as we can still go see our horses.

Actually it seems that there have been more people out there than usual, including the very much older property owner. I wish she wouldn't come out. The "barn owner" was arguing with her today, telling her to stay home, but she wasn't having any of that.

Our stalls are located in the back barn that no one else really uses, and we don't share tack or horses with anyone. The only shared point of contact are the gates and maybe the sink in the main barn. I may bring some soap for us and we'll just use the hose that's in our barn.

I'm curious if the barn owner will still keep holding lessons.


----------



## Acadianartist

ACinATX said:


> Well, our city has issued a "shelter in place" order. However, there are exceptions to take care of pets and to participate in outdoor activities (maintaining social distance) so I'm going to read that as we can still go see our horses.
> 
> Actually it seems that there have been more people out there than usual, including the very much older property owner. I wish she wouldn't come out. The "barn owner" was arguing with her today, telling her to stay home, but she wasn't having any of that.
> 
> Our stalls are located in the back barn that no one else really uses, and we don't share tack or horses with anyone. The only shared point of contact are the gates and maybe the sink in the main barn. I may bring some soap for us and we'll just use the hose that's in our barn.
> 
> I'm curious if the barn owner will still keep holding lessons.


Here, lessons barns have stopped giving lessons since Equestrian Canada has put out a notice that they should not be holding any lessons or events (clinics, shows). Then we got letters from our provincial association's insurance company saying that if barns do not comply, the liability insurance will be voided. That shut everything down real quick. 

My daughter's lesson barn is allowing boarders to come see their horses, but are asking people to phone ahead so they can space them out. They're also telling people not to touch items that are not theirs and instructing them to wipe down any shared sursfaces (gates, etc.). It helps that the barn owner is a lawyer, but I think this is very responsible. Maybe your BO would be open to gentle suggestions... but if not, I'd try to go when no one or nearly no one is there.


----------



## ACinATX

@Acadianartist those are all good ideas. We can start wiping down the gates after we use them. I still have a bunch of alcohol prep swabs that are probably five years old, but still moist.


----------



## tinyliny

There were some reports in our newspaper that people who came down with the virus experienced a loss of the sense of smell, and taste. Noticealby. it was the first 'symptom' 



Interesting, huh?


I also heard (and this is facebook, so is it a fact? cannot say) that it is best not to take Ibuprofen if you fall ill. The usual tylenol/ paracetemol (acetominphen).


----------



## egrogan

The stay-at-home order has arrived in Vermont, effective tomorrow at 5pm. The order from the governor was very clear in what services are allowed to continue, and being a highly agricultural state, work can continue on farms (and animal shelters), at vet clinics, in sales and production of animal feeds, and other retail establishments serving "basic human and animal needs." Pretty much any type of services (retail, vet, etc.) are moving to curbside. Theoretically this is in place until April 15th. Hard to imagine things resolve that quickly.
https://www.reformer.com/stories/governor-issues-stay-home-stay-safe-order,600713


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## Acadianartist

tinyliny said:


> There were some reports in our newspaper that people who came down with the virus experienced a loss of the sense of smell, and taste. Noticealby. it was the first 'symptom'
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, huh?
> 
> 
> I also heard (and this is facebook, so is it a fact? cannot say) that it is best not to take Ibuprofen if you fall ill. The usual tylenol/ paracetemol (acetominphen).


Yeah, I heard both these things too. It would be nice to know if the first one is real - that way people would know if they have it. Somehow, I think we would have been told by a medical professional if it were true. 

I'm coughing a lot today. Still no fever, no travel, no contact with a known carrier so I am assuming it is a remnant of the cough I've had since September. There are still only a handful of cases in my entire province therefore it is highly unlikely that with my semi-hermit lifestyle, I would have had contact with the virus. But I don't like the fact that it suddenly got worse. Last place I want to be is at a doctor's office right now. 

Don't worry, I haven't gone anywhere since this all started here over a week ago. I wouldn't dream of it.


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## ApuetsoT

My barn is still hosting their clinic this weekend and giving lessons. When I asked about it, their justification was that all of the out-of-barn riders have cancelled so it's only boarders (6-7 riders total). They are private dressage lessons, there is no Saturday demo, and they aren't providing lunch. No auditors, only boarders.


We have to schedule times to go to the barn now. No more than 2 people at a time(makes sense, seeing as we have two aisles). Lessons are still happening, but again, they are privates. They emailed us all a statement from their insurance company that stated it was all ok and complied with the current provincial regulations. I was wanting another lesson this month, but I'm holding off, especially since I'm doing long-lining lessons and my trainer walks right beside me. Otherwise, I'm trying to only go to the barn every other or every 2 days, lining up the weather for blanket changes. I'm also rotating the gloves I wear, 3 pairs and they stay in the car. By the time I cycle back around the the first pair, anything that's on them would be dead.




Regarding those Facebook Hoaxes, IMO they are not so much a hoax as people misunderstanding science and a (un)healthy dose of Dunning Kruger effect. I've got several people on my Facebook that I just roll my eyes at, like treating heartburn with apple cider vinegar, or the list that Loosie posted. That's not to mention the crossover between the conspiracy "Coronavirus was created to stop Trump from winning the election" people...


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## loosie

Australian man living in Hubei China...

If I can't attach vid, you can find on FB /ABCScience/videos/153349749245255/


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## loosie

I've heard a lot(I think here, via Spanish(??) too, about ibiprofen being bad, but mentioned to my Dad who said he'd just seen a study that showed this was not true. So... not verified, but...


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Just checking in from Oklahoma. We currently have 109 confirmed cases and 3 dead from CV19. Governor did a CV19 update today and said that he suspects we've really got more than 500 cases, but since we're not a hot spot, we're still having trouble getting tests (really more the reagent) and results are still taking anywhere from 3 days to a week to return. He has ordered a non-essential business shut down as of Midnight the 25th. My town, Stillwater, ordered the same effective 5 pm today. Obviously an order by a man, women would NEVER put nail shops and hair dressers in the non-essential category. Yes, that's a joke! I was able to get a cut & color done this afternoon, originally was going in tomorrow afternoon. She had a bunch of cancellations, so I was able to get in and be the only customer in the salon. She was very careful to wipe down every surface before I sat down and then we both washed our hands before & after the appointment. We're both symptom free, so hopefully that's good enough. 

The problem with the governor's logic is, his order only pertains to the 19 counties that have confirmed cases of Covid. That leave the other 58 counties to do as they please. AND, since most of those other 58 counties are very rural, the reason they don't have any confirmed cases is because, a) there are no tests and b) even if there were, they probably don't have anyone to collect and run the samples. The county (ies) where DH's patients come from (roughly 18, could be plus or minus a couple either way) are a) mostly tough, stubborn old Okie Farmers who are By God NOT going to the witch doctors until they're almost dead most of the time and b) There are no tests to run on them until they're critical enough to get shipped to OKC and admitted and c) there's no PPE (personal protective equipment) for the providers so they're not seeing anyone with any kind of respiratory, flu, fever symptoms anyhow. People are being told to stay home unless they get a lot sicker, call their regular provider first, then come to Urgent Care where they may or may not be referred to the ER. All without the first test being run. 

Our problem isn't really a lack of services, to an extent, it's a lack of critical supplies. The governor thinks that our cases will be in the 1000's before too much longer, but again that's only going to be the ones we find out about. All elective/non-emergency procedures have been cancelled until further notice. Restaurants are permitted to do curbside service or take out only, dining areas are shut down and have been for a while. 

He has issued a "Shelter In Place" directive for all seniors (over 55 in this case), especially those with underlying medical conditions. My life won't change all that much, I tend to stay home and leave the property under protest pretty infrequently. 

My opinion, worth exactly what you're paying for it IMO, is that we're very firmly shutting the barn door after the horse has already bolted and is better than 1/2 way down to Dallas/Ft. Worth. I'd love to be wrong about this, but don't think I am. It's going to get a whole bunch worse before it gets better.


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## loosie

Clear as mud here - no wonder so many still not taking seriously - inc my husband who thinks going to work(construction) is more important because he doesn't want to be dishonest & 'pull a sickie'(take sick leave without being seriously sick). Ultimatum for him is, I'm putting up the camper trailer & he will be living in that if he insists...

This is the 'new, stricter' restrictions being put into place as of tonight... What do I take from this?? 

Until tonight, tattoo & nail parlours, casinos & adult entertainment must have been considered 'essential' to be allowed. Suppose someone in high up place needs themselves a haircut, as hairdressers will be allowed to continue!! Not that I get how someone can cut hair from 2m away... That schools will remain open to babysit essential service worker's and hairdressers kids. That weddings & funerals may be conducted but with very small numbers... unless at a school I suppose, as they have no restriction on numbers. That you can go to shopping centres, and to food courts, so long as you don't sit down to eat - take it away. That small 'boot camps' and personal training classes are 'essential services'.


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## Spanish Rider

> It's amazing. I read the news, I listen to the radio. And yet here on Horse Forum is where I really get stories from thoughtful, well-written people, about what's happening in the rest of the world. Thank you @Spanish Rider for starting this thread. Thank you so much!


No thanks be needed. I really wish the thread weren't necessary.


I can't remember what I wrote last here, so forgive me for repeating.

As of this morning, 42,000+ known cases (again, these are patients requiring treatment or hospitalization), 3000 deaths, 2700 in ICU.

The government projects (hopes?) that we will start to witness a flattening of the curve around April 11th, although that is in stark contrast with calculations based on the Italian experience of another spike coming around April 13th. I am trusting no one.

I believe I mentioned that the city's ice-skating complex has been turned into a morgue. Yesterday, however, the volume of bodies exceeded the capacity of funeral vehicles, and by evening Madrid hospitals had 15-20 bodies each taking up beds needed for patients. Today, that problem has been resolved by the military moving bodies in their trucks.

Again, the problem of the virus is not the virus itself, but the MASSIVE care burden that hospitals need (but can't) provide, and now the logistics of disposing of bodies. Until now, bodies have been buried naked in body bags in plain pine boxes, in niches at the closest municipal cemetery (not family plots). Only two family members are allowed to attend. However, the thought now is that they may have to start incinerating bodies if they can't keep up with the volume, with no family present.

On a more personal note, a colleague of my husband was hospitalized with C19 yesterday: a 30-something mother who had beat breast cancer. My husband is now happy that I nagged him so much about not going to the office, which he stopped doing almost 3 weeks ago. His other coworkers are now on edge, concerned that they may have exposed their families to the virus even before the quarantine started. 


As for latest medical news, the CDC has found viral RNA on the Princess cruise ships *17 days after passengers disembarked*, on several different surfaces and in the rooms of both mild and more acute cases. Again, this is more evidence (in addition to The Lancet Wuhan study) that *14-day quarantines are not enough*. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/23/cdc...bins-up-to-17-days-after-passengers-left.html

The WHO leader Tedros announced bleak numbers yesterday: "The pandemic is accelerating," Tedros said. "It took 67 days from the first reported case to reach the first 100,000 cases, 11 days for the second 100,000 cases and just four days for the third 100,000 cases." He continued by saying, *"But we're not prisoners to statistics. We're not helpless bystanders. We can change the trajectory of this pandemic."*


I am also in contact with a college friend in New Orleans. Without wanting to identify her, she is high up in the New Orleans public healthcare administration, and her husband is a doctor. She has been asking me for updates, which I have provided, always prefacing it with "I don't mean to be an alarmist…" She texted me yesterday afternoon that she just got "the call", telling her the numbers to plan for, and that there is justified cause for alarm. Jokingly, she also said that she has been saving plastic bottles in case she needs to fabricate face shields for doctors at home. But I know it was no joke.


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## Spanish Rider

*IBUPROFEN*

Yes, it is true that there are no multicenter studies proving that ibuprofen should not be used.

Yes it is true that neither the CDC nor the WHO have made recommendations.


However:

1) Studies have proven that hypertensive patients infected with COVID19 are more likely to develop more acute disease, related with non-survival. (again The Lancet Wuhan study)

2) It is a known *FACT* that ibuprofen raises blood pressure and is contraindicated in patients with hypertension (recommendation with a high level of evidence and widely accepted in clinical practice - read the label). https://www.webmd.com/hypertension-high-blood-pressure/guide/medications-cause#1

3) Therefore, hypertensive patients should not be taking ibuprofen, not ever and especially not now.

4) We have received texts from front-line physicians, initially in France and now in Spain, who are seeing more acute C19 disease in patients who had self-medicated at home with ibuprofen. Although these are reports based on personal observations ('case reports', if you may) and cannot be used to make a recommendation with a strong level of evidence, they do make sense. Self-medicated patients with high fever might not be completely lucid and therefore over-medicating and unintentionally raising their BP, while younger patients may have previously undetected hypertension.

Personally, I'm staying away from the ibuprofen.


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## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> The government projects (hopes?) that we will start to witness a flattening of the curve around April 11th, although that is in stark contrast with calculations based on the Italian experience of another spike coming around April 13th. I am trusting no one.


11th of April.
I am so sorry.


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## Spanish Rider

Just read an interesting news brief. Truckers have been given a list of 40 truckstops around Madrid, where truckers will be given a place to shower and eat, provided by local city halls and citizens.


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## Acadianartist

Keep the updates coming @Spanish Rider. We appreciate them. 

I am coughing less this morning to my great relief. I'm sure it's nothing. I think I have developed some underlying anxiety because of all this. 

Still very few cases in Canada but with our neighbors to the south apparently being told it will be all over soon and they'll be allowed to resume their normal lives, we are very worried. Our prime minister is saying that decisions will be motivated by science alone. Our border with the US is already closed to non-essential travel, whatever that means. 

Just over a dozen cases in my entire province, so really nothing significant yet, but of course we expect that to change. We are not testing many people. But our premier has created a phone-in line dedicated to reporting people who are not self-isolating after travel. I think this is a horrible idea. I don't think people should be out and about any more than they have to, but I won't be turning anyone in. I haven't left my house in 9 days. That doesn't mean I'm about to rat out my neighbors. They may have a very good reason for going out. I think it is bad policy to ask citizens to rat each other out. Some poor woman in the province near mine was swarmed by police in her own backyard because someone said she wasn't self-isolating. Her mother had traveled, but had returned a few days before we got orders to self-isolate so a) her mother is not technically obligated to self-isolate and b) other members of the family have no obligation to do so if they haven't traveled. Furthermore, she was in her own backyard. There are all kinds of ways for this "reporting" to go sideways and encourage racism, vindictive behavior and just general paranoia.


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## ACinATX

@Acadianartist as a neighbor-to-the-south, I too am appalled at certain neighbors-to-the-south. Given HF's policy on swearing, I am unable to properly express my thoughts about certain people, so I guess I won't. I wish we had an emoji of someone beating their head against a wall.


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## egrogan

Ditto @ACinATX. I’ll leave it at that.


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## Spanish Rider

And now the parents of another of my husband's colleagues have been hospitalized.

I hope this gives people an idea of how silently this virus is transmitted. Seemingly healthy people, just living their everyday lives to get the bills paid, can unknowingly transmit the disease to those who are more vulnerable.


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## AnitaAnne

ACinATX said:


> @Acadianartist as a neighbor-to-the-south, I too am appalled at certain neighbors-to-the-south. Given HF's policy on swearing, I am unable to properly express my thoughts about certain people, so I guess I won't. I wish we had an emoji of someone beating their head against a wall.





egrogan said:


> Ditto @ACinATX. I’ll leave it at that.


Ditto. There is this emoji one can use...

:beatup:


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## Spanish Rider

Midday news reports more than 700 deaths in the past 24h.

Our government has requested help from NATO (Euro-Atlantic Disaster Response Coordination Center) to procure medical equipment, including PPE, masks, goggles and ventilators.

My husband has just received a message that there will be a company-wide online meeting at 6 pm (in one hour).

Things seem to be happening faster.


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## QtrBel

ACinCTX you can try this


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## Acadianartist

QtrBel said:


> ACinCTX you can try this


I rather like the irony of the wall...


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## egrogan

Acadianartist said:


> I rather like the irony of the wall...


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

OK is continuing to expand the spread of the virus, up to 164 cases, 5 deaths and 27 counties. That's up from 109 cases, 3 deaths and 19 counties YESTERDAY.


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## rambo99

Minnesota goes into lock down Friday at midnight, till April 10th.


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## gjb

Ohio , 704 cases, (up over 100+) ,182 hospitalized (ICU 75), 10 deaths.


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## Captain Evil

Maine, 142 cases, up +24, no recoveries or deaths reported, but the same report says we have 139 active cases. One of the cases, at least, was a summer guy who came North to escape...

We, personally, are self-quarantining as we were recently (March 15) at an airport, and so are most everybody that I know. But I don't think it is a firm state policy, just a strong suggestion. Our schools, libraries and such are closed, but construction workers, at least, are still on the job. "We have to get this finished by..."

DH and I are sweating bullets: 90% of our income is tourist-dependent and it doesn't look pretty right now. We were already jonesing for a boat to sink (no casualties necessary) or a big commercial job to tide us over until May, but no one is even out fishing. 

It is a minuscule worry thing when you look at the scope of this disaster, (oh Italy - oh God, poor Italy.. poor everyone) but for us, it looks like a looming disaster anyway.


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## Spanish Rider

The college friend who I mentioned in the New Orleans healthcare administration? Her colleague just died of COVID19.


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## tinyliny

Washington state's governor acted very soon to close all schools, then restaurants, and now all 'non-essential' businesses. We've been in either full or semi'lock down for about 3 weeks now. Our case load is leveling off, and long ago surpassed by other states. I applaud Governor Inslee (who was not my fav politician before) for being brave enough to do this back when almost no one thought it was the right thing to do. He caught soooo much flack for it, initiatially. Then, other governors followed suit, but he had to be out there breaking the social resistance barrier.


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## boots

Wyoming has 44 confirmed cases and no deaths.

Much is shut down or barely operating. 

I had to go to a hardware store to get some safety equipment for a client. The other customers and I looked like we were doing some odd dance when we would see each other. Reverse direction. Step aside. Indicate the other could go first. 

Still our state officials are suggesting more restrictions. Whatever it takes. We'll deal with it.

I worry about those with physical ailments ( Is everyone getting what they need? Have we missed anyone?) and those with mental illness. How bizarre things might seem to some of them.

PPE is in short supply.


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## AnitaAnne

Captain Evil said:


> DH and I are sweating bullets: 90% of our income is tourist-dependent and it doesn't look pretty right now. We were already jonesing for a boat to sink (no casualties necessary) or a big commercial job to tide us over until May, but no one is even out fishing.
> 
> It is a minuscule worry thing when you look at the scope of this disaster, (oh Italy - oh God, poor Italy.. poor everyone) but for us, it looks like a looming disaster anyway.


So sorry to hear you are struggling. A way will be found. Your DH is very good at building barns...

praying this will be for a short time, and the economy will recover, but of course things will never be the same again. :hug: 




Spanish Rider said:


> The college friend who I mentioned in the New Orleans healthcare administration? Her colleague just died of COVID19.


So sorry. Hard times for everyone right now.


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## AnitaAnne

We have two cases in our county, but may be more out there. The tests are taking so long to get back...the waiting is hard. 

Counts per county do not necessarily include hospitalized patients, as they can be from outside the county. 

Our ID physician has developed a set of COVID-19 orders, do not know if it is universal treatment or his own. I will say high dose Vitamin C is included in the order set. 

UAB is working to develop their own COVID-19 test, as are most other research centers. As of today, they have drive thru testing, but must be referred by a physician. The phone lines were down because of heavy traffic.


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## AnitaAnne

Many in the community feel that a higher power (God) is punishing the world. There is talk that the world has turned away from God and family, and that C-19 is making the world return to a family focused lifestyle.


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## Spanish Rider

> Many in the community feel that a higher power (God) is punishing the world. There is talk that the world has turned away from God and family, and that C-19 is making the world return to a family focused lifestyle.


That is a nice thought, but there are plenty of impoverished areas in the world that have always had a family-focused lifestyle in order to simply survive, and they will be the hardest hit once this thing jumps the Equator.


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## loosie

Credit to The Chaser - those boys do it SO well...


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## loosie

Another one from Dr Norman Swan, on how to make this as short as possible - it's up to us. On FB /ABCemergency/videos/1084909691892059/


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## loosie

In short...


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## loosie

Where did our freedom go?? Dying for the dollar...


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## egrogan

To add to the annals of bizarre hoarding behavior...maple syrup (https://www.themaplenews.com/story/...he-shelves-at-grocery;-season-progresses/290/)

Good for our Vermont farmers anyway. They lost farm visitors for Maple Weekend, which is typically a huge opportunity for selling syrup, but looks like they may just sell even more because of this craziness! Strange times.


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## loosie

AnitaAnne said:


> Many in the community feel that a higher power (God) is punishing the world. There is talk that the world has turned away from God and family, and that C-19 is making the world return to a family focused lifestyle.


My own spin... well, not just mine but shared by many...

Many in the community feel that a higher power (Gaia/Mother Earth) is punishing the world. There is talk that the world has turned away from nature and respect for all things, and that C-19 is making the world return to a holistic focused lifestyle.

"When we rebuild our economy, we must do it with sustainability in mind" Whole article; https://www.canberratimes.com.au/st...rgIJjVYBVEahiTuertmja05olx-es31YoxixNR-Xl8BAk


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## gottatrot

I was wondering tonight...since we had that deadly SARS outbreak a few years ago, which was a coronavirus, it seemed to me they must have made a vaccine for that one, which would probably help us get a vaccine more easily for this one, right?
No, apparently there was no interest in preventing the virus that had a 10% mortality rate.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/scientists-were-close-coronavirus-vaccine-years-ago-then-money-dried-n1150091

The good news is that evidence is we probably will be able to make a vaccine that can provide lifetime immunity:
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/relatively-stable-sars-cov-2-genome-is-good-news-for-a-vaccine-67319


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## Spanish Rider

Respect for our healthcare workers! This is from an article pubished in the NEJM two days ago (_Fair Allocation of Scarce Medical Resources in the Time of Covid-19_):


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## AnitaAnne

loosie said:


> My own spin... well, not just mine but shared by many...
> 
> Many in the community feel that a higher power (Gaia/Mother Earth) is punishing the world. There is talk that the world has turned away from nature and respect for all things, and that C-19 is making the world return to a holistic focused lifestyle.
> 
> "When we rebuild our economy, we must do it with sustainability in mind" Whole article; https://www.canberratimes.com.au/st...rgIJjVYBVEahiTuertmja05olx-es31YoxixNR-Xl8BAk


I was trying to make my post "generic" but I live in the bible belt so...to most of the population here...God figures into whatever happens in the world. Just sharing, not trying to make it a religious discussion


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## Spanish Rider

@AnitaAnne , I think a lot of us wish it were that simple. 

And, I second the sustainability, @loosie. Have you seen the photos of the dolphins swimming in the now-clean canals of Venice? or the ducks walking around the empty streets of Paris? Here at home, my laundry loads have been cut in half since we don't go anywhere and don't have to put on clean clothes, and I am currently saving hundreds of € by not having to drive the 2-3 hours a day to get my son to school & basketball.

Also, since the tele-working is going quite well at my husband's job, I hope that people will be convinced to continue with it after this is all done.

And I've just received the seeds for my Victory Garden!


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## AnitaAnne

IMO we will all be continuing online schools and such for the foreseeable future. In-class instruction would be limited to clinical or workshop type learning. 


Work places I also will expect to see more at home when possible too. 


Dining out may change even to in home dinners or such, and the homes may begin to have bigger dining areas and more dedicated learning centers.


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## Acadianartist

Spanish Rider said:


> @*AnitaAnne* , I think a lot of us wish it were that simple.
> 
> And, I second the sustainability, @*loosie* . Have you seen the photos of the dolphins swimming in the now-clean canals of Venice? or the ducks walking around the empty streets of Paris? Here at home, my laundry loads have been cut in half since we don't go anywhere and don't have to put on clean clothes, and I am currently saving hundreds of € by not having to drive the 2-3 hours a day to get my son to school & basketball.
> 
> Also, since the tele-working is going quite well at my husband's job, I hope that people will be convinced to continue with it after this is all done.
> 
> And I've just received the seeds for my Victory Garden!


Sadly, the photos of the dolphins have been shown to be fake: https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/20/debunked-video-does-not-show-dolphins-in-venice-s-canals-thecube

Teleworking is working well for me too, but my husband continues to drive in each day. And my kids desperately need to be with kids their age. 

I've also planted lots of seeds! We always have a big garden so this is not because of the pandemic, but we have a little more time so we started a few more seeds than usual including some lettuce and garlic in a planter by a window. There is still snow here, so it will be a long time before we can get seeds and plants in the ground, but they should have a good headstart indoors this year! 

And I don't think God has anything to do with this. I think it is all our own doing. Humans have overpopulated this planet, and taken for granted that we can continue to do what we want with it, and travel around it as much as we want without regard for the consequences (environmental and otherwise). Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful to have seen a lot of countries (including Spain, which I LOVED!), but I traveled for work, and have really been minimizing this in the last few years out of concern for the environmental impact. In nature, when a species outgrows the capacity for its environment to sustain it, disease kills off a large portion of the population. I don't want that to happen, don't get me wrong, but perhaps we need to decrease our footprint to avoid using up all our resources before it's too late. We've become far too arrogant and careless. We did this to ourselves. Rant over.


----------



## Captain Evil

Sadly, DH and I are NOT sustainable... we depend on tourism for most of our income. We don't grow a garden since we work on the water all summer. That being said, our little 2 acres of land is fairly wild and we have all manner of animals come here, from deer to muskrats, turtles, ducks and cormorants, eels and several kinds of fish which bring in herons and kingfishers. 

Home quarantine is ridiculously easy is some respects, as my horse is here, and there are tons of projects to do. Add internet access to books and cards and such, and it is a little paradise. 

The hard parts for me are emotional: concern for our battered and shattered world, not being able to see my parents, sisters, and friends and, of course, financial worries for our future and for the world. We still have savings to live on so are actually fine for now. In truth, staying home is a luxury that we rarely enjoy. 

For DH the hard part is not quite understanding what quarantine means: we have been out shopping once since we left the airport on the 15th, and we went early, stayed as far away from everyone as we could, and used self-checkout. But he looks at long incubation times, and the idea that the virus can linger in the air five minutes after someone has sneezed there, and he sees no way to make it an absolute quarantine. He is taking this very seriously so he ponders these difficulties.

This will truly be a re-set for the world...


----------



## AnitaAnne

Captain Evil said:


> Sadly, DH and I are NOT sustainable... we depend on tourism for most of our income. We don't grow a garden since we work on the water all summer. That being said, our little 2 acres of land is fairly wild and we have all manner of animals come here, from deer to muskrats, turtles, ducks and cormorants, eels and several kinds of fish which bring in herons and kingfishers.
> 
> Home quarantine is ridiculously easy is some respects, as my horse is here, and there are tons of projects to do. Add internet access to books and cards and such, and it is a little paradise.
> 
> The hard parts for me are emotional: concern for our battered and shattered world, not being able to see my parents, sisters, and friends and, of course, financial worries for our future and for the world. We still have savings to live on so are actually fine for now. In truth, staying home is a luxury that we rarely enjoy.
> 
> For DH the hard part is not quite understanding what quarantine means: we have been out shopping once since we left the airport on the 15th, and we went early, stayed as far away from everyone as we could, and used self-checkout. But he looks at long incubation times, and the idea that the virus can linger in the air five minutes after someone has sneezed there, and he sees no way to make it an absolute quarantine. He is taking this very seriously so he ponders these difficulties.
> 
> This will truly be a re-set for the world...


Self quarantining is good for everyone right now. If he wants to wear a mask and gloves, no one will be surprised. 

This might be a time to explore other ways you both might use your wealth of knowledge. YouTube seems to have many people making a living by uploading videos that are either entertaining or instructional, or both. 

Tourism will return, but in the meantime try exploring alternatives. Only you can know what might be possible. Building, scuba, restoring; these are all areas people will be interested in exploring. 

Also I expect online sales of products to increase as in store purchases decline. So possibly an eBay seller or FB selling. 

Just some ideas to think about...


----------



## Spanish Rider

@Captain Evil , does your DH restore boats? I have my grandmother's '63 Lonestar Skipper in our garage (Belgrade Lakes region), sitting on a trailer and staring me in the face each summer…

… well, not THIS summer, I'm sure.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

We jumped from 164 cases in OK to 248, today's count. Gone from 19 counties, to 27 counties to now, at least 33 counties with confirmed cases. Up to 7 deaths now (several in nursing homes) or people with sever underlying issues. I read where we've just received 10,000 tests, but we're still waiting over a week for results and the criteria for testing seem to be changing day to day. 

A nurse who works at a metro hospital has been sick for weeks but cannot get tested. First it was that he had to meet ABC criteria. He meets those but isn't an inpatient (yet), so they won't test. Then they said they would test him if he had a fever. At the moment they went to test, he was just below 100 F (37.777 C), so they weren't testing until he's over 100 F, which he has been several times, just not at that exact moment. Because he has a fever, he can't return to work, but once he's fever free for 24 hrs, they expect him back regardless of cough, lung issues, etc. Oh, and he cannot get Plaquenil because he's not inpatient. Z paks are back ordered, so none of that either. It all boils down to, they had NO PPE when treating these patients and yet the health care workers cannot get tested or help and more and more are off work. My husband has been off work a couple of times already because he's sent a nurse home for having symptoms, so he can't see patients. 

They're rationing what few masks are available, and I'm referring to just surgical masks, not N95 or N99's. They are wearing one mask per person per day and will still run out. They have gloves but no gowns.


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## AnitaAnne

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> We jumped from 164 cases in OK to 248, today's count. Gone from 19 counties, to 27 counties to now, at least 33 counties with confirmed cases. Up to 7 deaths now (several in nursing homes) or people with sever underlying issues. I read where we've just received 10,000 tests, but we're still waiting over a week for results and the criteria for testing seem to be changing day to day.
> 
> A nurse who works at a metro hospital has been sick for weeks but cannot get tested. First it was that he had to meet ABC criteria. He meets those but isn't an inpatient (yet), so they won't test. Then they said they would test him if he had a fever. At the moment they went to test, he was just below 100 F (37.777 C), so they weren't testing until he's over 100 F, which he has been several times, just not at that exact moment. Because he has a fever, he can't return to work, but once he's fever free for 24 hrs, they expect him back regardless of cough, lung issues, etc. Oh, and he cannot get Plaquenil because he's not inpatient. Z paks are back ordered, so none of that either. It all boils down to, they had NO PPE when treating these patients and yet the health care workers cannot get tested or help and more and more are off work. My husband has been off work a couple of times already because he's sent a nurse home for having symptoms, so he can't see patients.
> 
> They're rationing what few masks are available, and I'm referring to just surgical masks, not N95 or N99's. They are wearing one mask per person per day and will still run out. They have gloves but no gowns.


This will be the case soon everywhere, unfortunately. 

We have not done any testing on staff, as far as I am aware. 

I have started wearing a mask when in stores. Most people here seem to be walking around like usual, ordering take out, etc. I am only purchasing food for me and my critters. Low on bunny food which could become a problem. Plan to try to get to Walmart early in the am tomorrow. 

Dog has plenty of food and can always share mine anyway. She is the least of my problems, food wise, but does need medication which I am nearly out of. Hope can pick up some tomorrow, but I really don't even know if the vet is open right now...


Chicken food I am ok on until next week. TSC had a sale on feed, buy 4 get one free so I think I am good for a month on horse feed, but have begun cutting back. They are now on once per day feedings, and less hay. The grass will have to make up the difference. 

Taking these steps now, in case I have to quarantine.


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## carshon

I agree with what so many have said about the environment. Unfortunately, many people in my very rural area feel that they will never get it and are part of the let's hurry up and get back to work club. The US is fairly sheltered and many people do not truly understand how small the world really is. I am tired of all of the politics involved with this and the weird theories about how it was introduced to influence the election in the US.

I am in the camp that there will be more deaths and more virus' in the future


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## egrogan

@*AnitaAnne* , does your vet have an online pharmacy you could order from? Or, if they are open in the office and taking phone calls, and you are comfortable mail ordering stuff for delivery, could you use Valley Vet or similar to get it (the website would just have to be able to contact your vet to confirm the prescription exists)? 

Can't imagine the stress you and your colleagues are under at work. Makes all the handwringing about figuring out how to do Zoom calls with kids around seem a bit laughable.


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## AnitaAnne

egrogan said:


> @*AnitaAnne* , does your vet have an online pharmacy you could order from? Or, if they are open in the office and taking phone calls, and you are comfortable mail ordering stuff for delivery, could you use Valley Vet or similar to get it (the website would just have to be able to contact your vet to confirm the prescription exists)?
> 
> Can't imagine the stress you and your colleagues are under at work. Makes all the handwringing about figuring out how to do Zoom calls with kids around seem a bit laughable.


An ID physician in Birmingham has C-19 and ever since that news many of the physicians in the hospital are wearing surgical or N95 masks.


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## AnitaAnne

Just read that Prince Charles (UK) has tested positive for C-19


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## Woodhaven

More cases are showing up in Southern Ontario too, I just hope people take this seriously and obey the rules and/or suggestions that are being talked about on T.V.
We are not going anywhere if we can help it, we are seniors so don't have to go to work and a neighbour brought us groceries this week. I do go over to see my horse at my sister's but she is self isolating as well so not going anywhere or having company and we do keep a good distance apart when I am there.

I hear gas in town is 69 cents a litre which is about $2.60 a gal. Usually it is up about $1.15 to $1.20 a litre. I guess people are really not travelling unless they really have to.

Snow birds coming home to Canada have STRICT rules about not stopping to shop etc. but go straight home and self isolate for 14 days. They are now threatening big fines to those who don't comply.

All the best to everyone out there and stay safe.


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## Spanish Rider

@DreamCatcher and @AnitaAnne , due to the shortage of masks (and having to wear one all day, or a homemade one), here doctors and nurses are making their own DIY face-shields with transparent plastic sheeting or a plastic bottle cut open and elastic banding at the top to go around the head.

The idea is to keep the mask & face protected from direct splatter/spray, and the aerosol tends to fall with gravity, not go upwards under the mask. Plus, they say that the shields are more comfortable than goggles.

Whatever works. And PLEASE do not be concerned with 'alarming' patients. They SHOULD be aware of what is happening.


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## Caledonian

AnitaAnne said:


> Just read that Prince Charles (UK) has tested positive for C-19



Yes. He flew to his Birkhall home on the Balmoral estate in Scotland on Sunday and was found to be positive on Monday. It's not certain when he was infected or the symptoms presented, different sources said he fell ill before or on the flight. However, Clarence House said that it could have been any time during the last couple of weeks.

Anyway, it has angered some people as it went against travel warnings, which were meant to prevent those fleeing the illness and self-isolating in the remote parts of Scotland, from infecting areas with few cases, thereby placing the local NHS under greater pressure.


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## ACinATX

@Caledonian how are you feeling? I seem to recall you saying you had been feeling short of breath?


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## Caledonian

ACinATX said:


> @*Caledonian* how are you feeling? I seem to recall you saying you had been feeling short of breath?



I am feeling a lot better. Thanks for asking. I still have a slight cough but the shortness of breath has gone. I still don't feel like i could go for a run :smile:. Whatever it was, it is taking its own sweet time to go. 

It could have been any ordinary bug or infection though so I have to stay in lockdown:frown_color:

How are you doing? Is there many cases in your area?


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## MeditativeRider

gottatrot said:


> I was wondering tonight...since we had that deadly SARS outbreak a few years ago, which was a coronavirus, it seemed to me they must have made a vaccine for that one, which would probably help us get a vaccine more easily for this one, right?
> No, apparently there was no interest in preventing the virus that had a 10% mortality rate.
> https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/scientists-were-close-coronavirus-vaccine-years-ago-then-money-dried-n1150091
> 
> The good news is that evidence is we probably will be able to make a vaccine that can provide lifetime immunity:
> https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/relatively-stable-sars-cov-2-genome-is-good-news-for-a-vaccine-67319


Sorry as a scientist, I have to say for the world of scientists that is an incorrect interpretation, and I hope that you can educate yourself some more and be appreciative of the work that they do.

They did start making vaccines for SARS and all the development and knowledge they have from that research is the reason that they are able to get into vaccine development for COVID so rapidly. Vaccine development is very difficult and very expensive and takes a really long time (decades). So the pace scientists are working at now for this is amazing, and it is able to go at that pace because of the beginning vaccine development they did for SARS. 

Just because they did not get to a final end product does not mean there was "no interest in preventing the virus that had a 10% mortality rate". There was no longer a requirement for the vaccine because SARS stopped being an issue. They cannot continue to devote as much time and money to vaccine development when it was no longer required. There are so many other more pressing issues that suck up the grant money and time (if you don't already know, scientists are pretty darn poorly paid for the education they have but they devote their lives to their work and do ridiculous hours and then have to spend a very large percentage of their time trying to apply to grant money to pay for their very needed research). But they did retain that knowledge and some would have kept working on it to a lower level because they know that a coronavirus could always pop up.

I am a chemist and science editor and my husband is a biochemist. He is working from home now as his work place is shut, but I hear from him every day at the progress scientists are making on this.

I will post later some articles to show you that they did work on SARS vaccines and that is what they are using now to develop COVID vaccines.


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## MeditativeRider

AnitaAnne said:


> Dog has plenty of food and can always share mine anyway. She is the least of my problems, food wise, but does need medication which I am nearly out of. Hope can pick up some tomorrow, but I really don't even know if the vet is open right now...


Vets are considered an essential service under lockdown where we are (New Zealand, just started 4-week lockdown). Our dog is in an end-of-life stage with an untreatable tumor in the back of his jaw and eye socket, so he is on palliative care pain meds, which I have to get weekly. Our vet said prescribing would be fine and I just have to call and they will prep it and then I can go pick it up. I am more worried about if he gets to a point that he needs euthanasia. The vet said that would be ok too, but probably only one of us would be able to take him to the vet for that and I don't think they would do a home call under the current rules. The vet is also not sure that the pet crematorium will be working (we have a small garden, so not sure where we would bury him). They said they could put him in the freezer till the pet crematorium is going but I think my kids would not like that so we may have to find somewhere in the garden.


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## tinyliny

AnitaAnne said:


> An ID physician in Birmingham has C-19 and *ever since that news many of the physicians in the hospital are wearing surgical or N95 masks.*







only just now???? What are people waiting for? I cannot comprehend this thinking that 'it won't happen to us". Valuable time is wasted by this . 

By acting as if it is already there, you can prevent it from blossoming.




This will be a world wide game of 'whack a mole' for the next year, at least. There is no 'done by Easter' and out the other side. uh uh.


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## MeditativeRider

This article provides a more positive view of the gain in prior knowledge from work of SARS and MERS vaccines:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/26/coronavirus-vaccine-when-will-it-be-ready

Its more a glass half full "we have all this knowledge to use that makes it faster" than the glass half empty "we could have had it ready to go if we had kept working on it". Sadly the later is just not viable in real science as you cannot keep working as hard on something that is no longer a "hot topic". If as a general citizen, you think it is, then I suggest you get into campaigning your science funders about how they choose to fund science. Scientists would love to get that support.


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## rambo99

Last I checked Minnesota had 243 covid-19 confirmed cases. 1 death don't recall how many were hospitalized.

Tomorrow at midnight we go into lock down. Not sure how the stay at home is going to be inforced. Will be interesting how many up here, Will actually do the stay at home for 2 weeks. 

If there isn't a way to enforce it ,people will do as they please. 

Hope everyone is staying healthy.


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## Spanish Rider

> I cannot comprehend this thinking that 'it won't happen to us".


It happened in Europe, and now in the US. It will also happen in China, when it comes in again through their back door to the Middle East.


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## AnitaAnne

tinyliny said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only just now???? What are people waiting for? I cannot comprehend this thinking that 'it won't happen to us". Valuable time is wasted by this .
> 
> By acting as if it is already there, you can prevent it from blossoming.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This will be a world wide game of 'whack a mole' for the next year, at least. There is no 'done by Easter' and out the other side. uh uh.


Well, I really didn't specify a date they began did I? 


We do still have to follow policy.


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## Captain Evil

Well. The US now has more cases than China, and we had a LOT more warning...


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## Spanish Rider

Texting with ER bestie right now:

Ours is a small city (pop 65,000), but, as the capital of a rural province, there are 4 hospitals. Hers has 300 beds. They have received 280+ patients in the ER per day for the last 3 days, and last night they had 100 patients spend the night in the ER in beds, in chairs and on the floor because there were no beds for them in the hospital wards.

Hard to believe. I understand that photos and video should not be taken of these patients, but I think it would help a lot of people to understand the importance of citizens to *STAY HOME*.


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## Spanish Rider

Proud of a colleague of mine in this video prepared by EuroNews:

https://www.facebook.com/euronews/videos/3065331263497372/


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## gjb

Thinking of you all today!

I found an article you might be interested in.






Maybe it was posted here.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

OK is now starting to get the test results back in a little more timely fashion. Still about a week out as far as I know. We have jumped from 248 confirmed cases yesterday to 322 today. Now up to 8 deaths and over 100 hospitalized. There are still only 7 cases in my county. I'm finding cases in only 40 of 77 counties, so still almost half of OK has no cases (YAY!) but they are the MOST rural counties of a very rural state, so ....thinking when they get some returns it's going to jump quickly.


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## AnitaAnne

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> OK is now starting to get the test results back in a little more timely fashion. Still about a week out as far as I know. We have jumped from 248 confirmed cases yesterday to 322 today. Now up to 8 deaths and over 100 hospitalized. There are still only 7 cases in my county. I'm finding cases in only 40 of 77 counties, so still almost half of OK has no cases (YAY!) but they are the MOST rural counties of a very rural state, so ....thinking when they get some returns it's going to jump quickly.


Some more rural areas my not be as exposed as those with bigger cities, or not be tested because they don't qualify. Its hard to tell.


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## AnitaAnne

I just was sent this...very discouraging

As upper management patrolled the halls at one hospital in California, telling staff they could be fired on the spot for wearing N95 masks brought from home, one nurse asked to see the policy. The administrator told her that, if she was going to wear one, she needed a note from her doctor. 

"One of my biggest concerns is the nontransparent way management is addressing these issues," said the nurse, who did not want to give her name. "If we don't start treating healthcare workers as adults, providing us with honest information, adequate protection, and supplies, I am terrified that this current situation will quickly escalate, not just with viral spread, but with staffing shortages through contagion and/or the 'rats off a sinking ship' scenario."

As hospitals watch their supply of masks and other personal protective equipment (PPE) dwindle, they have severely curtailed their use. But the constraints have become so restrictive that physicians and nurses on the frontlines of the COVID-19 pandemic believe their health is being sacrificed to assuage staff and patient morale. Practitioners are reacting with fear and rage, and they are facing everything from ridicule to reprimand — or worse — for taking matters into their own hands.

Some are being told by their hospital administrators they cannot wear PPE in hallways or that they can't bring their own PPE to a facility. In some cases, practitioners are being threatened with disciplinary actions or even fired when they have continued to use gloves, masks, or other gear.

The hospitals point to a variety of reasons for their actions, from the idea that PPE needs to be conserved and used as minimally as possible to the notion that it scares patients.

Private Facebook groups, Twitter, and other social media outlets are bursting with stories from doctors, nurses, and other healthcare workers. Many are anxious and fearful. Some are losing faith in administrators who tell them that working without PPE is safe, even while providing no evidence to back up those assertions. Still others are just plain angry.

"I'm tired of hearing stories of docs and nurses getting reprimanded by the ‘suits' for wearing a freakin surg mask when they are on the unit because it ‘looks bad,'" tweeted XXX, MD. "Do you know how many HCP are admitted in the US? Are you on the wards? I say F that. Protect yourselves. #COVID19."


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## AnitaAnne

sorry double post


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## AnitaAnne

Continues: 

At a hospital in the Chicago area, one clinician found and wore a P100 mask to work, and said the infection control nurse told him, "You cannot wear this mask in the hallways, you're scaring people," he told XX. He notes that he was ridiculed by others on staff for wearing it — many of those same colleagues were working unprotected.

An emergency physician in Maryland said that his hospital had warned physicians that they could not walk around with masks or other PPE. And when an administrator saw he was wearing a surgical mask on the ward, he told the physician that he was "not setting a good example for other staff members," and that "it was important during this time to not scare patients."

"I'm angry just talking about this and almost want to disclose the hospital," he said, but added that doing so "would be certain termination for me."

He, like others contacted for this story, did not want to name their institution or themselves, for fear of retribution.

The retribution, however, has already begun. One nurse in Oklahoma was fired reportedly because he wore a surgical mask while inserting an IV line in a patient at the Oklahoma Heart Hospital. The nurse told XX that a supervisor told him to take it off because it was scaring patients. He took off the mask, but when he told human resources department of his concerns, he claims he was fired on the spot.

According to a memo issued a week ago by California Nurses Association and National Nurses United, nurses at XX were being told they could be fired on the spot for wearing their own N95 masks.

The nurse who was told she needed a doctor's note to wear a mask was one of those affected by XX policies. But today, she was told at a staff meeting that workers could now wear masks as much as they wanted, and that they could bring their own from home. Nurses and physicians immediately started wearing masks in all patient rooms, she said. "I'm thinking the backlash finally brought about some sanity," she told XX.

XX had not responded to a request to comment on the new policy as of press time. But spokeswoman XX said the earlier recommendations were "in line with CDC guidance, recommendations by the World Health Organization, and the practices of other healthcare providers around the country."

Employers frequently have cited guidance issued by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) or state health departments, said physicians and nurses who spoke with XX about this issue.

But many decry the most current CDC guidance, which included a recommendation that — when facemasks were not available — healthcare providers "might use homemade masks (eg, bandana, scarf) for care of patients with COVID-19 as a last resort." And yet, the CDC also acknowledges in the same statement that those are not considered PPE, since their ability to protect healthcare providers is unknown. While many hospitals and health systems are relying on CDC's advice as a foundation, others appear to be creating ad hoc PPE policies.


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## AnitaAnne

Continued;

In Michigan, XX — issued a policy memo March 21 that seemed to chide healthcare workers. "There are no arbitrary inequalities, and we cannot and will not disadvantage or advantage one group over another," said the memo to all staff.

It directed that PPE be limited to providers in contact with patients under investigation, confirmed COVID-19 cases, and those screening for possible respiratory infections. "All associates and clinicians in care settings outside those listed above should not be using scarce PPE resources, such as standard surgical masks, N95 masks, gowns, goggles and face shields," the memo said.

A few days later, an updated policy stated that a single surgical mask could be used for the entirety of a single day, from patient to patient, unless it was "wet, grossly contaminated or used in aerosolized procedures." Similarly, N95 masks, and gowns, can be reused "between COVID-PUI patient

Rooms" unless "soiled or contaminated," the memo stated.

"The fact that we're expected not to change masks or wear them in the first place is very concerning for most physicians," a clinician who practices in the system told XX.

At Phoenix, — workers reportedly had masks pulled off their faces, were told to reuse PPE, and reprimanded for wearing the gear, according to the XX.

XX spokesperson XX that it could not substantiate those allegations but said that "no team member has been suspended as a result of PPE misuse."

"We are closely monitoring our stock of equipment and supplies, which include personal protective equipment for healthcare workers to safely engage with patients," she added, and said that XX PPE recommendations were based on CDC and World Health Organization guidelines.

The system is also allowing its workers to wear what it's calling "social comfort masks," that is, masks brought from home. "While XX does not endorse personal mask use as effective in preventing disease transmission, we recognize that team members may want to engage in the use of these masks for their own personal relief," .

One physician told XX that she found the policy "offensive," in that it appears that it doesn't take health care practitioners' concerns seriously and that it seems to be encouraging people to use homemade masks. 

"It's just so inappropriate to a physician to be given a letter to say that you can wear a fake mask if it makes you feel more comfortable," said the doctor.


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## AnitaAnne

last part

Oregon: Do As You're Told 

While many organizations are supporting healthcare workers objecting to being placed in harm's way, some seem to be coming out in support of employers.

The Oregon State Board of Nursing, noting that it was receiving reports of nurses refusing to accept patient assignments if facilities were following Oregon Health Authority guidance only, said that was unacceptable. "Nurses cannot refuse an assignment solely because the employer is utilizing OHA guidelines rather than WHO or CDC guidelines," said the board in a position statement.

The American Academy of Emergency Medicine released its own position statement, declaring that it would support any emergency physician who was threatened or terminated for wearing self-supplied PPE, including "assistance with filing an OSHA [Occupational Health and Safety Administration] complaint and pursuit of litigation for wrongful termination."

Meanwhile, Boston-XX is doing exactly the opposite: They now require all staff to wear masks on site at all times, according to the XX. As of publication, XX had not responded to a request to comment on how it would manage to provide enough masks to carry out the new policy.


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## carshon

@AnitaAnne it is scary that once again a business (and imo hospitals in the USA are a business) is going to put profits above workers. The main concern is to not scare the patients. But what is more scary than a health care worker that has infected untold number of compromised people because they were following orders? I wonder how many lawsuits from grieving families of health care workers will result when all of this calms down?

For me personally I would rather know the person helping me is well protected.

On another scary note. My husband went to go pick up our lawnmower from the dealer today. The owner told him that his wife is an ER nurse in a local hospital. I live in a very rural area and the largest town in my county has 15,500 people (I live about 20 minutes or so outside of this town) and the owner said his wife warned him that our area is about 2 - 2/12 weeks of seeing an influx of cases. It seems the wealthier folks from Chicago are coming to the "rural" areas and renting cabins or whatever they can and have started bringing the virus with them. This nurse said they are already seeing multiple requests for testing in a hospital about an hour North of us. My daughter who left to go back to college a week ago also let us know that her campus has its first case - even though the state is on lockdown some students went back (including my daughter who works for the college as a student worker) the person with the virus is a young man from Chicago who came back to school a week ago (before our Governor issues a stay in place order and the campus closed to anymore incoming students) so now the school is trying to figure what else to do to keep the students there safe!


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## AnitaAnne

Yes, hospitals are a business. One has to consider viral load when it comes to health care workers. They risk multiple exposures. 

People treating it like a holiday, and young folks not taking precautions are just some of the ways it spreads so easily. 

I have only a couple of years before retirement; hoping to make it...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

AnitaAnne said:


> Some more rural areas my not be as exposed as those with bigger cities, or not be tested because they don't qualify. Its hard to tell.


OK is a small state, so I can't think that only 1/2 the state will be affected. I used to work in San Bernardino County in So. Cal. and it was twice as big as OK landwise but only half the population (because desert, y'know) of the state of Oklahoma. They have 55 confirmed cases, 3 deaths by comparison to what we have in OK. OK Farmers are tough and cussed. Not going to waste spring planting time on going to the witch doctor until they're absolutely forced.


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## egrogan

@*AnitaAnne* , I can't wrap my head around why people would be "scared" by medical professionals wearing protective gear?! Are there still people who aren't understanding how highly contagious this virus is? I'm much more frightened of the prospect of people NOT having proper gear. 

@*carshon* , the flight to second homes is definitely happening here. My dirt road has 6 houses in a 2 mile span, three of us are full time residents and the others are 2nd homes. Right now there are as many license plates from CT, NJ, and MA as there are VT. Most 2nd home owners here are coming from the metro NYC region. That was the topic of a NYT article yesterday, and the comments section got very heated: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/nyregion/coronavirus-leaving-nyc-vacation-homes.html. The general theme of the comments was "you rural people should be grateful for our property taxes and we're fleeing NYC whether you like it or not."


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## AnitaAnne

egrogan said:


> @*AnitaAnne* , I can't wrap my head around why people would be "scared" by medical professionals wearing protective gear?! Are there still people who aren't understanding how highly contagious this virus is? I'm much more frightened of the prospect of people NOT having proper gear.
> 
> @*carshon* , the flight to second homes is definitely happening here. My dirt road has 6 houses in a 2 mile span, three of us are full time residents and the others are 2nd homes. Right now there are as many license plates from CT, NJ, and MA as there are VT. Most 2nd home owners here are coming from the metro NYC region. That was the topic of a NYT article yesterday, and the comments section got very heated: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/25/nyregion/coronavirus-leaving-nyc-vacation-homes.html. The general theme of the comments was "you rural people should be grateful for our property taxes and we're fleeing NYC whether you like it or not."


I wore a mask around one day in and out of patients rooms all the while explaining that I am not sick, just have compromised lungs because of asthma and some people (visitors) looked terrified of me. 

Things on the unit have changed, which I cannot disclose, but wearing a mask around (I don't think) matters anymore. 


I am wearing a mask when going into stores, but hoping I am not seen by (certain) coworkers.


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## egrogan

Ohhhhh....so they are scared because they think wearing masks means nurses and docs are sick? That just would never occur to me, I would assume you are only doing what you can to protect yourself precisely so you don't end up sick. Anyway, I hope the changes you are seeing are for the better. *fingers crossed*


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## ACinATX

@AnitaAnne wow, that sort of idiocy just makes me spitting mad. It is so stupid that we need some sort of new German word (for those of you who are aware of those enormous German words) that means something like "The ultimate, highest, stupidity that a human could commit, so stupid so as to be beyond the understanding of a normal human."


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## tinyliny

We in North America need to get over the stigmatizing of wearing face masks. In Asia, people often wear face masks in public, and no one assumes they are Typhoid Mary. They wear them if they feel a slight cold coming on, or if they need relief from pollen. At times, practically everyone is wearing one. It's no big deal.


I wore one the other day to the super market. I was the only person there wearing one. I know that it does not do a lot to protect ME from inhaling any aerosolized particles, but the larger ones, say, that fly off someone's mouth if the 'spray it, not say it", are stopped by the mask. And, more importantly, if I should just do one little tiny cough, that escaped my mouth before I could think about it, my mask will help those little bits of spittle from flying out several feet, and slow down much of the smaller particles so they do not travel so far.


Masks DO help. The do. Our government should start dispersing them for free to everyone. ASAP.


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## Acadianartist

Over 100,000 cases in the US now.


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## Captain Evil

ACinATX said:


> @AnitaAnne wow, that sort of idiocy just makes me spitting mad. It is so stupid that we need some sort of new German word (for those of you who are aware of those enormous German words) that means something like "The ultimate, highest, stupidity that a human could commit, so stupid so as to be beyond the understanding of a normal human."


I bet there is one... German is amazingly expressive...


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## boots

We're wearing masks at the hospital. Quite a few people with respiratory problems wear them during the coldest weather. I see them in stores now, too.

I had one client object to my mask because they have a hearing deficit. "You don't have to worry about me! I only come here." Me "True. But you don't know where *I've* been." 

Then they started telling me how many people they see wearing masks and how frustrating it is when you can't hear and hearing aids don't help. That must be frustrating. But not deadly!

Our hospital is requesting staff to not travel. Everyone I know who had plans has cancelled. The CEO even passed on attending his son's wedding. 

Hoping all this helps.


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## Spanish Rider

I rely heavily on reading lips, so I understand the complaint about the masks and inability to comprehend. But, as an asthmatic with a history of pneumonia, I will not be leaving my house any time son, and when I do it will be with a mask. (I had better start sewing.) 

Ugh, @AnitaAnne. That is so frustrating.

Equally frustrating is when I hear talk about the 'American healthcare system'. There is no SYSTEM. It's just a bunch of for-profit hospitals and institutions working under a very fluid set of guidelines.

A projection of cases in Spain was sent to me today, developed by statisticians at a medical school in Madrid. The numbers of infected predicted by the end of April are... cataclysmic. And the expected death rate is… about 6-7 times higher than what we were initially told. My brain can't handle it, and all I can do is hope that they are terribly wrong.


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## Acadianartist

I'm sorry @*AnitaAnne* , that this is how people are being treated. It's just mind-boggling. 

My parents who were going to head to Florida on March 16th and cancelled their trip have been talking to friends who were already there and have just come back to Canada. The one thing they all said was that they were absolutely dumbfounded about how little they were being told while in Florida. Now, this is purely anecdotal. Anyone with Internet access could have accessed the information, but these are very well-off seniors who are on vacation as they do every year for decades. They said that people are going to the beach, living life as usual, not in the least bit worried. They'd heard there was a flu going around, but that's about it. Then they got to Canada and were told at the border to self-isolate immediately for 14 days and prepare for the worst. In their words, the difference was "surreal". 

I'm not trying to say we're doing better in Canada. But these people were shocked that they hadn't been told the extent of this pandemic while in Florida. 

As for masks, I don't understand why it's a big deal. As @*Tiny* said, in Asia, people wear them commonly. In Canada, it's not at all common, but I've seen Asians wearing them in my area before the pandemic and since I'm aware this is common there, I didn't think anything of it. We are still ok here, but we know it will get worse. We've been in social distancing mode for 14 days now, and cases are still manageable. It will get worse. Hopefully we have done some mitigation. 

@*Spanish Rider* , I'm so sorry that the expected death rate is projected to be so high. I cannot even begin to imagine. Yours is such a beautiful country. While in Madrid, I photographed the most stunning horses that were guarding the Royal Palace. They took my breath away. I hope your statistician is wrong. Thank you for continuing to share with us.


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## RegalCharm

you know who's approval rating Gallup found 60% of American adults approve of the handling of the covid-19 threat. A Fox News poll out Thursday found it lower, at 51%, Reuters/Ipsos and Economist/YouGov polls similarly had it at 49%. (NPR March 27, 2020)


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## Chevaux

I love the sign you posted, as.


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## Horsef

I apologize if this is political. 


Even now, I am not too sure which approach is better.

We (Serbia) seem to be in good shape. We went into lockdown when there were less than fifty cases. People over 65 have been in full lockdown for nine days. Our average age is below 65. We are testing more, but finding less at the moment. The doctors are still able to trace more than 95% of infection routes which is amazing. (All of this might change rather fast and doctors have been clearly stating the fact). Tomorrow they are starting aggressive testing on all known contacts and their contacts regardless of symptoms and they will be putting even asymptomatic patients in mandatory quarantine at temporary hospitals.

However, what happens afterwards, if we beat it?

Nobody has a plan. A vaccine is at least a year and a half away. We can’t stay in lockdown for that long - we’ll starve. So how do we get out of lockdown? Do they release us county by county so that we stagger the onslaught on hospitals? That will take a very long time as well. Do we lock the borders for two years? Mandatory quarantine on entry? I really don’t know.

One thing I know is that I’m grateful I don’t have to make these decisions.

One country specific issue we have here is that a lot of Serbs have emigrated abroad. 300.000 of those people crammed back into the country right before we closed the borders. Most of them from affected areas because they lost their jobs there. Just shows you how each country has these very specific epidemiological issues. There can’t be one perfect approach for all. A mandatory quarantine away from home in some mass warehouse for asymptomatic people and people with light symptoms is very unlikely to happen in the States or Western Europe. Those people simply wouldn’t allow their government to take so much control, virus or no virus.


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## Aprilswissmiss

I am baffled by this whole discussion of mask fear. What??

At the animal hospital, we are not allowed to get anywhere near owners or touch them or their stuff at all. Newest protocol addition is we are not allowed to touch their paperwork or bring it inside - They need to email us copies. Even with all that precaution about not getting close or touching, we are still REQUIRED to wear masks and gloves at ALL TIMES when we go out into the parking lot for curbside appointments and while we are handling their animals inside. We treat their animals with infectious caution like any other potentially infected surface that multiple other people have touched.

No one has expressed any fear or complained at all. They thank us for taking such extensive precautions to protect everyone's safety, especially among the retired population whose pets are in frequently. I cannot count the number of times today people have cut me off mid-sentence and said "You don't need to explain, I understand!! Thank you for being so safe!" while I am giving our required spiel about "We can't get near you, we will be masked and gloved, you can't come inside the building" etc etc. I think it might help if human healthcare workers also took a few seconds to explain, so that perhaps the fear would be lessened and instead turned into appreciation.

I cannot believe hospitals and healthcare professionals, of all places and people, are the ones saying "no masks." Absolutely ridiculous. These are the people who are supposed to keep us safe. At least I can tell you the vets are taking this very seriously.


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## tinyliny

My guess is that in Florida the economy is SO dependent on tourism that any news that would frighten people away was surpressed. Unfortunately, I believe Miami will experience a total nightmare scenario in about 2 weeks.


This is both so fast moving that people don't have a lot of time to prepare, and also moves slow enough that people can fool themselves into thinking it won't come.


It reminds me of the story of the man with a small pond in his garden. Every day he would wander down to admire his garden pond, and one day he noticed a dozen or so gorgeous lilly pads, with green leaves and bright blossoms, on the surface. "oh, how lovely!" he thought.


the next day there were several dozen pads. "Even prettier!". The next day an eighth of the pond's entire surface was covered! "wow, they are so pretty!, but, it does block out the sun for the fish. perhaps I should trim some of them" . . . 



next day the pond is 1/4 covered.


"I'd better do some trimming back on those . . . tomorrow"

the next day, he looked at his pond, and realized he had ONE day to save it.


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## Spanish Rider

@Horsef , your question about future approaches reminded me of this NYTimes article by an oncologist, biostatistician and epidemiologist (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-social-distancing-effect.html):


"The irony of successful social distancing is that fewer will develop immunity. That means that social distancing 2.0, 3.0 and, who knows, maybe even 4.0 will very likely have to occur.

The next round of social distancing will be activated more rapidly, because officials — and the public — will be more prepared. It should also be shorter, because we can assume that most of the people who were initially infected are likely to be immune next time around. But it will still disrupt people’s lives and the economy. We will still have canceled conferences and sporting events. People will not frequent restaurants and will not travel. The service industry will be severely curtailed. And it’s going to happen again and again.

Maybe the best analogy is pumping a car’s brakes on an icy road. Either doing nothing or slamming on the brakes leads to an accident. So we pump the brakes — pushing on the brakes, then easing up, and then applying them again — and after three or four times we slow down enough to stop."


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## gottatrot

What concerns me also is that this is unlikely to be the only new virus that comes about in the next few years. What will we learn from this? Will fear of disease begin to be a way of life for everyone in the world? It is interesting to think about whether preserving a high population will be better in the long run or if it will mean our quality of life will become worse and worse. 
I suppose at some point it could become no decision at all. If our population gets too high, it will probably give viruses more chances to emerge and mutate, and most likely we won't be able to combat some of them. 

Not trying to be callus but I am someone who likes to think about all aspects of a problem. We see it from the side of fear for our own death or the death of loved ones. There are other sides also that become apparent if all emotions are removed. 
I am not as concerned about the long term effects of this virus on our quality of life, because they believe a single vaccine will most likely be able to provide lifetime immunity. However, this is only one virus and many more will soon emerge. What if a more deadly virus comes out that can mutate rapidly like the flu or even more rapidly? Then vaccines will not be as helpful and people may want us to live in social isolation more permanently. 
Not trying to scare anyone, just thinking.

I am wondering how these things will be decided. Will we get a vote on whether we would rather risk lives or live with a very poor quality of life? I am certain there would be no consensus. Just like with cancer, some people want to have a shorter life with more quality, while other would prefer aggressive treatments that make their life rather miserable so they can live longer.


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## Horsef

@Spanish Rider That is going to cost a LOT of money and quite a few countries cannot afford it. For my country it wouldn’t be an ethics question, we just wouldn’t have the money for a second round in the next few years. Just to give you an idea, our average salary is 350Eur and we have high unemployment.

Another issue, especially in less developed countries, is that these are prime conditions for totalitarian systems to take hold and entrench themselves deeply. That whole argument by the NRA that they want to have means to defend themselves against the government always used to give me a bit of an uneasy feeling. I guess this is one of those far fetched scenarios. I am guessing that just the threat of all those privately owned guns is enough to be a serious deterrent to wanna-be despots.

What a mess, on all counts.


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## Horsef

@gottatrot I think it will resolve itself because there will not be enough money - at least in a lot of places.


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## Horsef

@gottatrot If you look at Africa, living with deadly diseases is their normal. Life carries on. People get married, have kids, throw parties, earn a living.


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## gottatrot

AnitaAnne said:


> Oregon: Do As You're Told
> 
> While many organizations are supporting healthcare workers objecting to being placed in harm's way, some seem to be coming out in support of employers.
> 
> The Oregon State Board of Nursing, noting that it was receiving reports of nurses refusing to accept patient assignments if facilities were following Oregon Health Authority guidance only, said that was unacceptable. "Nurses cannot refuse an assignment solely because the employer is utilizing OHA guidelines rather than WHO or CDC guidelines," said the board in a position statement.


They clarified their statement after pushback:


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## gottatrot

Horsef said:


> @gottatrot If you look at Africa, living with deadly diseases is their normal. Life carries on. People get married, have kids, throw parties, earn a living.


Sad but true.
Maybe we will just get very good at not infecting each other. If people didn't cough, sneeze or wipe their secretions everywhere they go then there would be no pandemic.


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## Horsef

I am watching the cops arresting two young guys right outside my window for sitting in a public park which isn’t allowed. So our government is deadly serious. They’ve already slammed a few guys in prison for three years for ignoring their isolation orders. Not quite China levels but rather harsh.


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## Acadianartist

@RegalCharm, I can't say I'm surprised at those approval numbers because I'm not surprised about anything anymore. I'd venture to say they're different in NYC, but even so, it's not for me to tell people how to think. If Americans are comfortable with how things are going, then that's their decision. 

As for being in isolation or practicing social distancing, it was never suggested as a long-term solution. It was put in place as an emergency measure to reduce the impact by giving medical professionals time to get ready, time to stockpile supplies, and hope that it spreads the number cases out which is better for everyone. Hospitals can handle people getting sick, just not 70% of the population getting sick at the same time. This has limited how many people come into contact with each other, but people are still getting it, it just slows the rate. 

Before the chicken pox vaccine, people would send their kids to play with a kid that had it so they could get immunity. But the whole world didn't suddenly get exposed at the same time. It was a slow spread, not a broad contagion to an entire community overnight (that's what they did to Indigenous people in an intentional attempt to wipe them out - it's called genocide and it was quite effective). This is what self-isolation is doing, at least in my part of the world where the vast majority of cases are travel-related (we had our first case of possible community transmission yesterday from a person who could not identify the source). 

I suspect most of us will be exposed to it eventually. But I'm not willing to sacrifice my sick and vulnerable so that I can go back to sipping lattes at Starbucks next week. I do think our lifestyles will all change forever. We will see more coronavirus. Some of us will build immunity. Some of us will die (don't forget that healthy, young people have died too). But we may travel less, we may re-assess our lifestyle choices, and maybe that's not a terrible thing for the planet. 

But that's just me.


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## Spanish Rider

@Horsef , our avg. salary is less than €1000/month, which is a lot in your country, but our living expenses are higher, too.

Your country has been able to handle the situation well until now, better than most. If they can keep testing and isolating asymptomatic and mild positives (are they using mandatory containment facilities?), then they can keep on top of it.

However, I think the opinion article was speaking specifically to the situation in the US and other countries with mass community infection. We need to get over this initial surge, replenish materials, re-enforce with more medical staff, and crunch some data to develop national & international treatment protocols. The current fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pants approach to this pandemic is benefitting no one. The medical community needs to pause, think, and develop a consensus on how best to handle the coming surges. Theoretically, they won't be as bad, but hospitals have to be re-stocked.

I don't think 'business as usual' is anywhere in our near future. Although essential industries and their suppliers will continue to work, I don't believe that the service industries will recover any time soon. Yes, I need to go to the supermarket. Yes, my kids need to go to school. But I am _convinced_ that, even when the green light is given, I will not be going to the movies, restaurants, sporting events (we are BIG Real Madrid b-ball fans), or any other leisure-type entertainment. With my lungs, it's just not worth the risk.

And, with an economy based on tourism, we are not going to recover as a country any time soon. I mean, would you get on a plane right now?


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## Acadianartist

Horsef said:


> @gottatrot If you look at Africa, living with deadly diseases is their normal. Life carries on. People get married, have kids, throw parties, earn a living.


Africa is a very large continent with huge disparities. The average life expectancy in Western Africa is 56 for a woman, 58 for a man (these are higher in Norther Africa: https://www.statista.com/statistics/274511/life-expectancy-in-africa/). So yeah, people get married and have kids, then maybe grandbabies and they die. 

Maybe Japan would be a better model.

Edited to add: scratch that. Maybe not Japan. How about those northern countries like Finland, Norway, Denmark, and Iceland? They always seem to score well on quality of life surveys.


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## Spanish Rider

> Maybe Japan would be a better model.


Which I find sad, because the Mediterranean cultures are the complete antithesis of the Japanese culture. We hug, kiss, sing loudly, have huge family gatherings, boisterously enjoy large sporting events, etc. Will this lead to a complete cultural shift?


I hate to say it, but I have to: when my kids go back to class, will I be scared to hug and kiss them?


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## Acadianartist

Spanish Rider said:


> Which I find sad, because the Mediterranean cultures are the complete antithesis of the Japanese culture. We hug, kiss, sing loudly, have huge family gatherings, boisterously enjoy large sporting events, etc. Will this lead to a complete cultural shift?
> 
> 
> I hate to say it, but I have to: when my kids go back to class, will I be scared to hug and kiss them?


Mediterraneans are awesome. So warm and full of life! But you can be like Canadians - very chill, super-friendly to everyone but not the kissing types  We're like the "let's just be friends" type, but we really mean it when we're friends. You can crash on our sofa anytime!


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## egrogan

Spanish Rider said:


> Which I find sad, because the Mediterranean cultures are the complete antithesis of the Japanese culture. We hug, kiss, sing loudly, have huge family gatherings, boisterously enjoy large sporting events, etc. Will this lead to a complete cultural shift?
> 
> 
> I hate to say it, but I have to: when my kids go back to class, will I be scared to hug and kiss them?


That just brings up so many questions about “what is a life worth living?” Is it really worth contemplation of completely abandoning ones’ culture and ways of community because of a fear of possibly getting sick? Of a life between four walls, basically alone? I don’t know the answers, but we sure have plenty of time to think about the questions...


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## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> @Horsef , If they can keep testing and isolating asymptomatic and mild positives (are they using mandatory containment facilities?), then they can keep on top of it.


Yes, as of 8 o clock this morning. Up until now they were using home isolation enforced by the police and it worked alright but they are now starting a very aggressive testing approach, hoping to find more positive patients and those are likely to be asymptomatic or with very light symptoms. They think that police enforcement for home isolation of larger numbers will not be feasible so they are putting those people in large halls. No exceptions. People with more difficult symptoms will still go into hospitals. We have more than enough space in hospitals at the moment but it would be silly to block hospital beds with people who don’t need them.



> I mean, would you get on a plane right now?


Unless it’s a matter of life or death, I wouldn’t get on a bus, never mind a plane right now. However, young people might - with gusto. Especially seeing that travel will be dirt cheap. Young people are much less risk averse and are less likely to have serious consequences. When you guys make it out, I would focus on the young crowd.


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## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> That just brings up so many questions about “what is a life worth living?” Is it really worth contemplation of completely abandoning ones’ culture and ways of community because of a fear of possibly getting sick? Of a life between four walls, basically alone? I don’t know the answers, but we sure have plenty of time to think about the questions...


Right, it is easy for me to say that Italy has been asking for this, with an elderly population along with practices such as touching each others' faces for Ash Wednesday, kissing each other on the cheeks, passing a communal cup. Their flu infection rates have been going up each year with increasing deaths. But that is not my culture and maybe for some it is a very big part of a quality life.


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## Acadianartist

gottatrot said:


> Right, it is easy for me to say that Italy has been asking for this, with an elderly population along with practices such as touching each others' faces for Ash Wednesday, kissing each other on the cheeks, passing a communal cup. Their flu infection rates have been going up each year with increasing deaths. But that is not my culture and maybe for some it is a very big part of a quality life.


See, I don't think it's an either/or proposition. We don't have to change every culture from kissing each other to living alone between four walls. There is a middle ground there. Habits and customs change. People adapt.


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## jaydee

Our town and several others around it have now put a strict 14 day quarantine (in home) in place for anyone coming here from out of a State.

We don’t even have a GP practice let alone a hospital but have had a huge influx of people coming in from New York, which has a huge problem. A lot of them have their own holiday homes here but every rental home in the area has now been taken by someone from New York.

The shelves in our local supermarkets are almost empty and not enough coming in every delivery to meet demands even with restrictions in place to stop bulk buying.


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## Spanish Rider

> When you guys make it out, I would focus on the young crowd.


Lord, no! Do you know what the young, drunken partiers from the UK and Germany do here each year? There is a reason why many towns post "No Sex on the Beach" signs in English and German only.

Besides, they don't come with much money in their pockets.


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## Horsef

Well then.

Serbia. Today was a lovely day, a Saturday.

The streets were chock full of young people and parents with children. Literally packed with people.

We are running a soft lockdown during the day. People under 65 are allowed to go outside 05:00AM - 17:00PM.
It appears that our government has to enact a full lock down. People are morons.

I did expect young people to rebel. They aren’t in danger (mainly) and are expected to “sacrifice” for the old. It isn’t going too well.

And I thought we were doing so great :/


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## tinyliny

There will be new viruses. At least with this experience, we will know more about the class of viruses called 'corona' viruses, and once one vaccine is developed, more of similar ones can more easily be developed in the future.


I think that the reason for the social distancing needs to be kept in mind; to keep the sick from overwhelming the hospital system all at once. If your country doesn't have the hospital capacity to deal with even a much smaller onslaught of patients, then in all honesty, there is little point in social distancing. It's better to let the virus run quickly through the population, and be done with it, without destroying a fragile economy.


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## Horsef

tinyliny said:


> There will be new viruses. At least with this experience, we will know more about the class of viruses called 'corona' viruses, and once one vaccine is developed, more of similar ones can more easily be developed in the future.
> 
> 
> I think that the reason for the social distancing needs to be kept in mind; to keep the sick from overwhelming the hospital system all at once. If your country doesn't have the hospital capacity to deal with even a much smaller onslaught of patients, then in all honesty, there is little point in social distancing. It's better to let the virus run quickly through the population, and be done with it, without destroying a fragile economy.


Well, I guess that’s one way of solving the issue of unsustainable pension funds and lack of people to take care of the elderly in Europe :/


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## Captain Evil

Set 'em adrift on an ice flow to await the polar bears...


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## tinyliny

I know I sound heartless to have said that. 

But, it is one strategy . The sooner you have 'herd immunity', which will happen when about 80% of the population has been exposed to the virus and either recovered or died, the sooner you can go back to life as normal. And if your hospitals cannot deal with anything more than a very mild upswing in numbers of emergencies, then, what is the point of social distancing in the extreme? Even in the extreme, many will get sick. It's inevitable. Will destroying the economy make that better?


----------



## ACinATX

It was a nice day here, too. I went on one of my normal walks. Where I usually walk is a neighborhood that's a couple of miles away from mine. They have the best (steepest, highest) hills of anywhere within 10 miles. Sometimes on weekends I used to see one of the local high school track teams going up and down those hills. They were out there today, too, big clumps of them all together. I was annoyed at this ("stupid teenagers") until I saw what appeared to be their coach with them, encouraging them. Teenagers, honestly, I expect to be thoughtless, but she got these kids together and had them do this? Our city has banned gatherings of more than two or three, indoors OR outdoors. You would think a teacher would respect that.

Also on my walk I saw someone getting arrested, apparently for DWI. The police put a mask on him before they put him in the car. I thought that was interesting. I guess the police guy would probably put on his own mask once he got in, to be extra safe?


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## Horsef

tinyliny said:


> I know I sound heartless to have said that.
> 
> But, it is one strategy . The sooner you have 'herd immunity', which will happen when about 80% of the population has been exposed to the virus and either recovered or died, the sooner you can go back to life as normal. And if your hospitals cannot deal with anything more than a very mild upswing in numbers of emergencies, then, what is the point of social distancing in the extreme? Even in the extreme, many will get sick. It's inevitable. Will destroying the economy make that better?


It isn’t really a time for social niceties- these things need to be discussed.


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## RegalCharm

"Tectonix, geospatial data visualization platform, working in partnership with location company X-Mode Social, created an alarming map that shows the impact of ignoring social distancing restrictions."

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/cellphone-heat-map-coronavirus-potential-spread-from-travel


Go down to the tweet from Tectonix and play the video to see where some of the spring breakers in Florida went home to and are now testing positive for covid-19


----------



## Captain Evil

I wonder how viable this is... DH and I have about 5 of these masks. Mine is pink. I'm not proud of that, but it is a fact.

















(Quoted from the online article):

Ocean Reef, which produces full-face diving and snorkelling masks, has created an adaptor which will fit to their snorkelling product and transform it into a COVID-19 protection mask.

The consumer pricing for the adaptor is planned to be purposely low to help current owners convert their snorkelling masks as inexpensively as possible.

Ocean Reef, which produces full-face diving and snorkelling masks, has created an adaptor which will fit to their snorkelling product and transform it into a COVID-19 protection mask.

The consumer pricing for the adaptor is planned to be purposely low to help current owners convert their snorkelling masks as inexpensively as possible.

https://www.scubadivermag.com/ocean...e-snorkel-mask-into-covid-19-protective-mask/


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## Acadianartist

Horsef said:


> It isn’t really a time for social niceties- these things need to be discussed.


But it is also a time to decide what we value. Wealth or health? Compassion or selfish behavior? Everyone is assuming only the elderly or the weak will die. First off, since when is one life worth more than another? Is someone's life more expendable because they are diabetic? What about the cancer patient who cannot get life-saving chemo because the hospital is out of beds and supplies? And secondly, young and healthy people are dying too. No one is sure to survive this virus. 

There are too many people on the planet, and we are too greedy and materialistic in my very humble opinion. A re-calibration is perhaps necessary. But we need to be conscious of the choices we make right now because they will be remembered by generations. 

People ignoring social isolation will have to live with themselves when they spread this to their families and friends and watch their grandparents die because they just had to go to that party. 

Am I naive and idealistic? Hell yes, and I aim to stay that way.


----------



## Horsef

Acadianartist said:


> But it is also a time to decide what we value. Wealth or health? Compassion or selfish behavior? Everyone is assuming only the elderly or the weak will die. First off, since when is one life worth more than another? Is someone's life more expendable because they are diabetic? What about the cancer patient who cannot get life-saving chemo because the hospital is out of beds and supplies? And secondly, young and healthy people are dying too. No one is sure to survive this virus.
> 
> There are too many people on the planet, and we are too greedy and materialistic in my very humble opinion. A re-calibration is perhaps necessary. But we need to be conscious of the choices we make right now because they will be remembered by generations.
> 
> People ignoring social isolation will have to live with themselves when they spread this to their families and friends and watch their grandparents die because they just had to go to that party.
> 
> Am I naive and idealistic? Hell yes, and I aim to stay that way.


Absolutely, on all counts. I personally agree that just letting elderly and infirm be culled is horrifying. If it was up to me, I wouldn’t be able to make such a decision.

But I don’t think there should be any taboo topics at the moment. Avoiding this topic will just make young people resentful and silently (for now) defiant. By all means, let’s put a monetary value on everyone’s parents and grandparents. “Here, if your grandma dies, there will be x amount Euro more in the budget. Should we kill her?”. I think a lot of young people would be receptive to that crude approach.


----------



## Acadianartist

Horsef said:


> Absolutely, on all counts. I personally agree that just letting elderly and infirm be culled is horrifying. If it was up to me, I wouldn’t be able to make such a decision.
> 
> But I don’t think there should be any taboo topics at the moment. Avoiding this topic will just make young people resentful and silently (for now) defiant. By all means, let’s put a monetary value on everyone’s parents and grandparents. “Here, if your grandma dies, there will be x amount Euro more in the budget. Should we kill her?”. I think a lot of young people would be receptive to that crude approach.


Agreed. All these discussions should be happening. Let's at least be honest about what we're proposing.


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## egrogan

It strikes me that the choice isn't as black and white as "wealth or health." I will give an example from the little circle of the world I know a lot about- education in low-income communities (and these communities are everywhere in the US, rural and urban, all racial backgrounds). Students in the communities where I've taught are those whose families two weeks ago were sent packing from their jobs with no notice the day every restaurant shut down. Their parents may have already been working two or three of those jobs to keep the rent paid (very often to landlords who truly don't care whether it's a global pandemic or a "frivolous" birthday party for a child that is making the rent late) and had no savings to fall back on, not for a month and certainly not for the 8-12-18 months some news outlets are suggesting social distancing will continue for. For families in the schools where I taught, you don't pay, you don't stick around with multiple chances at catching up on rent, congrats, you are now homeless the day the check is late. These same kids already perform one or two grade levels behind their peers on the standardized tests that either open or close doors to a future, and now they are losing 1/2 a school year, minimum, making the gap they have to overcome to have a path to college, technical training, apprenticeships, etc. that much harder. Never mind they aren't getting routine medical care or mental health care during this social distancing time. Add in homelessness or food insecurity, and the prospects grow even darker for the future. And, we're not talking a few tens of thousands or a few hundred thousand even- we are talking about millions of kids in the US (obviously our education, social safety net, and employment protection "systems" are all just as broken as our health care system, so I get why this might not connect as easily for people not in the US). Maybe some people here on HF find themselves in that position; certainly people I know do.

When we contemplate the costs of public health measures weighed against other social costs, there are NO good tradeoffs here. But to accuse people who are wanting to talk about the consequences of social distancing as being cold-hearted selfish capitalists who want all our elders to die from this terrible virus means cutting off a discussion about a huge swath of our country who works so, so hard and yet has very little to show for it. A one time $1200 check from the government next month is not going to keep people in stable housing or give them access to routine medical care, good nutrition, and education- those are all social goods that are provided for millions of people through open, public systems that are trying their best to hack a work around right now but can't possibly meet the needs that exist- and certainly not for months at a time. I'm no fan of the current administration, but I wish that the conversation "we" (the general we) are having right now made room for the fact that whether you are a small business owner, a worker with no protections, or a child living with financial challenges, the fear of the consequences of complete global financial meltdown is legitimate. Just as is a fear of our loved ones who are medically vulnerable being killed by this virus. Again, there are no good tradeoffs, but I am starting to feel that the public conversation is (predictably?) just becoming the same old tired "either you're for us or against us" rhetoric, and you can label the left and the right equally guilty in ignoring the messy middle ground.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound preachy, but as the reality of this timeline sets in, the consequences become more and more dire. _The Atlantic_ described the coming wave of mental health, homelessness, and food insecure crises as "the second pandemic" and they are the first media outlet I've seen so far acknowledge that. I think they're spot on. The financial consequences DO matter, they have to because people here are completely on their own and without jobs to work at, it is so hard to survive, let alone to see your kids on a path to a better life when they grow up.


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## tinyliny

I cannot like @egrogan's post enough. Here here!!!


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## Horsef

@egrogan Those are very good points. I’m not in the US but in a rather poor country. Our social security is better than in the US but we just won’t have the money. My amateurish assessment is that we will have money for a month or two of lockdown - after that people will literally have nothing to eat. Our housing situation is much more stable than in the US (long story, irreverent to the discussion) but people will rebel. I mentioned Africa earlier. There is disease and violent crime but people still go to work every day because they have a chance to survive those but they have no chance to survive without food. Let’s say mortality of this virus is 5%. Mortality of no food is 100%. For everyone. 

So if we don’t somehow fix the virus situation in a month or two, we will have to get back to work and back into restaurants and cinemas and whatever it is that generates income for a lot of people. And people will still be dying of the virus, except now our economy is trashed. Well, our economy would have been trashed even without the lockdown because of the global recession - but the lockdown is trashing it even further. 

This is such a mess. I have no idea what the right approach is. There are no easy solutions here.

(I have noticed that I avoid writing the virus name like it’s Voldemort or something. COVID19 - there)


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## Acadianartist

You're absolutely right @egrogan. I do fully agree with you. Thank you for this very important perspective. 

But this inequity you're speaking of wasn't created by the pandemic. It was there before, and was created by a capitalist system that values the rich and somehow makes it seem like they are more deserving of wealth. The American dream (because we're talking about the US specifically here, though a lot of this could be extended to many Western nations including mine) suggests that anyone can make it if they just work hard enough. Rags to riches and all that. Taxes are seen as evil and public education, health, and other social safety nets are viewed as socialist, maybe even communist. It is a choice. Every time people vote, there is a choice to be made. 

Small businesses are absolutely essential to the economy - which is why I have gone out of my way to support local small businesses during this crisis. Stocks that go down affect us all, including me since my pension is largely depending on the stockmarket. Still, who is really benefiting from economic stimulation initiatives? Is it really the small local business or the multi-billion dollar industries? Who is lining their pockets when people go to the malls and fast-food chains? Oh sure, they pay locals minimum wage without benefits, but who is really getting richer while their front-line workers are never going to be able to get ahead? Everyone loves the rags to riches story, but what about all those who will stay in rags their whole lives?


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## Acadianartist

Yes, this is bad for economies worldwide @Horsef, but thousands of people dying isn't exactly good for the economy either.


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## Horsef

Acadianartist said:


> Yes, this is bad for economies worldwide @Horsef, but thousands of people dying isn't exactly good for the economy either.


Unfortunately, in our particular case it could be argued that it is good for the economy. We got told a few years back (by a very prominent global financial institution) to cut down on the anti-tobacco propaganda because our state pension fund is completely unsustainable. Yup.

We have 1.7 million people over 65 and only 2 million employed people. Since the wars in the 90s wiped out everything those people worked for all of their lives, their pensions are paid from currently employed people’s retirement payments. And nothing is held back for future retirees. A huge structural flaw which is impossible to fix. We can’t let these people starve in the streets. (Well, we could but than we’d be living the American dream.)

Again, each country has its own very specific challenges. 

Just before someone misunderstands that I am advocating a mass murder of the elderly and the slightly flawed - I am not. I am just trying to think out loud about all of the aspects of this mess. My own mum would not survive and I am also in a high risk group, unlikely to make it.


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## Acadianartist

That's a sad, sad perspective @Horsef. But yes, each country has its challenges. I appreciate hearing other perspectives.


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## tinyliny

they are developing a test that shows if you have had the virus. It tests for the antibodies that fight that virus. It can be much improved, I'm sure such that it would eventually be a 'badge' of immunity. One could get 'certified' as being immune, and with that mark, or badge, or card, or tattoo, or ? . . one would have rights to enter restaurants and work in high risk areas. Over time, this group would continue to grow and grow, from an elite group, to a very large baseline. One way or the other, we need to make good use of those who have immunity. they would be expected to carry more of the load of the sick, or yet to be exposed.


this is, of course, assuming that immunity is a pretty reliable result of exposure.
Sounds like creepy Science Fiction, no?


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## boots

Hospital ethics committees are already addressing the possibility of having to prioritize care.

Forgive me if this had already been shared. From the Henry Ford Healthcare System.

https://nbc25news.com/amp/news/loca...ines-plans-on-who-gets-life-saving-treatments


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## gottatrot

I appreciate the candid thoughts from @egrogan and @Horsef. It feels like we are making decisions without thinking through all thr ramifications. 

To add to what @egrogan said, I don't see the effects on those with low income as clearly but I see what it is doing to the next tiet up. We all are really dependent on all the tiers from the rich who invest in businesses and manufacture things to the poorest.

Some coworkers have invested in property, which provides rentals to others. Now they are told the rent may not get paid. They don't have extra money for five mortgages, and the bank is basically their landlord. So nurses have jobs but some are working 7 days a week to keep their properties, hoping to avoid bankruptcy.

Now you have those who are supposed to be providing care who also are super stressed and overworked,potentially making poor decisions for patients.

Go up a couple levels and the banks will not get paid, companies will not make supplies. If it gets too dangerous (health care workers will worry about getting sued if asked to care for too many and things go wrong), people will leave health care jobs. Even just the general hysteria has nurses saying they might do other things.

This really needs to be thought through. It's not simple like health vs riches.


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## Spanish Rider

Let's look at the reality of what we are saying here:

Even taking into account Spain's 'quarantine' (which still exposes a large percentage of the country working in 'essential' jobs), the prediction I have in my hand, which has been spot on for the last week, predicts an exponential rise in death rates based on the sheer volume of patients requiring care and the inability to provide that care properly to everyone.

Like in the US, we have had a 1% death rate, then 2%, then 4%, then 7.5%, and now we are close to 10% (18.8% increase in deaths in the last 24 h). In coming days, we will be at 12% and continue to top off at around a *15% death rate mid-April.*

*These calculations are for Spain while maintaining its current quarantine.* If we were not in quarantine, they would logically be much higher.

Again, I do not want to alarm anyone, and I will not be sharing the final numbers that I have been given. But let us be reminded that the US is on a steeper curve, does not have universal healthcare, and does not have a homogenous approach to quarantines/preparedness. So, we can only assume that the US is headed in the direction of a C19 patient death rate above 15%.

There is NO WAY the economy will be the same. People will be living in fear and alter their living and spending habits. They already have. Some people have already lost their jobs. The housing market will drop, not only because of people losing their jobs and homes, but because of all the houses that will come on the market belonging to all the COVID death victims. And no one is going to be spending their money on anything more than staple goods, toilet paper and survival gear to prepare for the next wave.

IMHO, the ones worried about the economy are those with stock portfolios and retirement plans. The vast majority of the population that lives hand-to-mouth will continue to do so.


As for the 'herd immunity', all bets are off. There are not many researchers who would dare make a prediction for a disease which we know so little about.


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## Horsef

@Spanish Rider Thank you for posting. Those are some horrible statistics. Why Spain and Italy? Why not 
Germany? Maybe Spain and Italy have 20 times the cases that are reported/recognized.

Ummm, what happens to people without healthcare in the States?
Do they just die at home?
Surely they are taking them in regardless?

I get a feeling I’m being naive, but I somehow assumed that all patients are being taken in at the moment, regardless of healthcare. Oh boy...


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## Spanish Rider

The German conundrum: 

They have tested more, which pushes death rates down. They have a shorter life expectancy than Mediterranean countries (here women live til 86), so a younger population. And most of their cases were initially very young, healthy people who were asymptomatic or mild cases, infected after skiing in northern Italy.

However, we feel that the biggest discrepancy is brought about by the lack of standardised reporting (again, looking at the WHO). For example, there would be a very large difference between reporting COVID19-only deaths (with no other comorbidities) versus all-cause deaths with COVID19 infection.

Until an international registry is created and the data reporting is standardised, we cannot make comparisons. And retrospective studies won't be published until the wave is over and someone starts inputting data SOMEPLACE.
@Horsef , go to bed! It's almost 4 am! Gotta keep that immune system up.


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## Celeste

Celeste said:


> Here in Georgia, we are up to 270 cases and 10 deaths. There were only 3 deaths reported yesterday, and way less than 200 cases.
> 
> The schools, colleges, and major universities are closed. As a professor, I am scrambling to put my courses online so the students can finish the semester that they are half way through.


I haven't been reading this thread because it keeps me awake at night worrying. These numbers have changed. These are today's numbers for Georgia. Most cases are around Atlanta.


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## 4horses

The idea of herd immunity doesn't work unless you want millions to die. Assume 50% of the population needs exposure for herd immunity. There's 329 million people in the U.S. 164.5 million would need to be infected to have herd immunity. At a 2% death rate, that's 3.29 million dead. Now if that fatality rate jumps to 7 percent due to lack of hospital care, that would be 11.5 million dead. 

I'm planning on being in lockdown for the next 12-18 months. My hope remains on a vaccine - that is the only viable solution. 

I expect the government is going to have to provide payments to those out of work, for every 2-3 months until this is over. After all the debt is $2.6 trillion dollars in the U.S. Going further into debt doesn't seem to be a problem for the government. 

Unfortunately we completely missed the chance to prevent this. Air traffic needed to be grounded when the outbreak started. If you are stuck overseas, that is too bad. It would have made more sense to completely shut down all air traffic, then wait for the virus to arrive, wring your hands in distress, and suggest warmer weather will destroy the virus. If this could have been delayed, even by a few months, you could stock pile masks, ventilators, and medical equipment. Everyone seemed to miss the curb ball on this. 

The only people who weren't totally surprised by this outbreak are the people who specialize in infectious diseases, and especially those who have studied prior coronaviruses. Even 10 years ago, they knew coronaviruses were a emerging threat. There's thousands of bat species that really need to be tested for coronavirus strains, as there are certainly others out there. We are actually lucky the death rate isn't worse. MERS had a fatality rate of 35 percent. 

It certainly doesn't make this virus any more horrifying or the lives lost any less meaningful. But I don't think we are going to see things return to normal any time soon. 

I don't know what people can do if they live paycheck to paycheck. I really hope banks stop foreclosures for the next couple years to allow people to regain their financial footing. We have plenty of food (50 million lb surplus of meat), so we aren't going to starve. But people need to be able to afford food. Medical bills forcing foreclosures should be outlawed as well. 

Now is probably a good time to look for better government leaders, because this will be completely devastating to a lot of people. Maintaining the status quo is not going to be enough. 

I do believe this will push us more towards socialism. Remember how everyone scoffed at the idea of a universal basic income? I'm afraid that may very well be necessary to get through this crisis. Because if people can't afford food, there will be riots in the street, crime will go up, etc. You can't keep people in a lock down without giving them the ability to support themselves and afford food. It's not sustainable. 

Any idea of the government releasing the lockdown would be highly unlikely because that infection and death rate will go shooting up. You might temporarily reopen things, but you would need to shut them down again as that infection rate climbs. 

The longer we wait, the better. It gives us a chance to get 1) get more medical supplies 2) prepare a vaccine or 3) get a drug on the market that makes the infection less deadly. And get more test kits.


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## loosie

tinyliny said:


> [/B]
> 
> only just now???? What are people waiting for? I cannot comprehend this thinking that 'it won't happen to us". Valuable time is wasted by this .
> 
> By acting as if it is already there, you can prevent it from blossoming.
> 
> 
> This will be a world wide game of 'whack a mole' for the next year, at least. There is no 'done by Easter' and out the other side. uh uh.


Yeah, over here, hospital/medical staff aren't taking any more precautions than keeping 1.5m away & surgical masks when they need to be up close. And my Dad's partner is a hospital nurse, and he's 74 & heart probs... At least, because she's a casual/stand in & all the regular staff can't go anywhere so are working, she is out of work for now, and there have been a lot of private hospitals shut down because elective surgery has been cancelled... so I'm happy that she will prob remain out of work for some time.

I have no idea what 'whack a mole' is :lol: but one of the biggest frustrations about this for me is, if only gov'ts(not talking any specific one, most aside from such as Singapore...) didn't try to put the economy first &... dribble into management of it, sounds like it *could* have potentially been over by Easter. But now...

I'm sure some have already seen this clip, from a satirical (but as is so often the case, sadly accurate on so many levels) show about politics in England in the '80's ....


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## Spanish Rider

@4horses , you have put into writing many things that I have been thinking, but did not have the heart to say - not only in this thread, but to myself because my son is on the other side of the Atlantic.


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## MeditativeRider

Horsef said:


> However, what happens afterwards, if we beat it?
> 
> Nobody has a plan. A vaccine is at least a year and a half away. We can’t stay in lockdown for that long - we’ll starve. So how do we get out of lockdown? Do they release us county by county so that we stagger the onslaught on hospitals? That will take a very long time as well. Do we lock the borders for two years? Mandatory quarantine on entry? I really don’t know.


This thread moves so quickly I barely have time to read the posts to keep up, so someone has probably already responded to this, but the lockdowns aim to slow the rate of spread so as to not overwhelm the medical system.

In terms of a vaccine, yes, in my view, a long term thing. There are just so many clinical trials and approvals to go through and then manufacturing of all the doses, and the distribution.

In the short term, I hope they develop a rapid, easy to administer (hopefully at home), inexpensive, and readily available test so people can know if they need to self-quarantine. DH (biochemist) says the science is moving really fast on this and scientists are openly sharing the results for others to use.

Also, therapeutics to treat it. DH mentioned a paper that came out the other day on monoclonal antibodies, which he said was promising. I have also read various papers that have looked at repurposing different medicines that have been developed for other things.


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## gottatrot

Horsef said:


> Ummm, what happens to people without healthcare in the States?
> Do they just die at home?
> Surely they are taking them in regardless?
> 
> I get a feeling I’m being naive, but I somehow assumed that all patients are being taken in at the moment, regardless of healthcare. Oh boy...


No, it has always been illegal to turn people away from emergency rooms if they don't have insurance. No insurance means a clinic can turn you away from routine care or preventative care. 

You will come to the hospital when sick and be admitted, put in ICU, whatever is needed. It gets tricky again when you need to get into rehab afterward. 

Social workers get people into charity programs for that sort of thing and medications, bill payment. Hospitals absorb the costs of these patients. 

Having a universal income might sound ok but I for one would work stocking shelves and not be a nurse then. I do it because I make good money. No reason to get exposed to high stress, diseases, get hit and spit on, or yelled at regularly otherwise. 

I watch a lot of people die, say the right things to their families, and put my job on the line to advocate for what strangers need to make it through a serious illness. If your mom is dying in a hospital shut down by covid, I am the one who will make a fuss against policy so you can come in to say goodbye. 

I am a nice person but will not do all that if there is no reward for me. Otherwise on a bad day I would walk away. Not trying to make this political but I think poor reimbursement for those who do difficult jobs has led to sub par health care in some countries, along with staff shortages.


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## Acadianartist

@gottatrot, the idea of a universal income has been resurfacing in my part of Canada for some time now (before the pandemic). The idea is that it would be a very, very basic income. Not like Cuba where a doctor makes the same salary as a janitor, but an income that would allow you to live with the most basic of means. No extras. So no horses, no new car, no vacations, only enough to get by. I think that would be enough to motivate people to want to have better jobs so they could have all the extras.


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## Acadianartist

This seemed like a well thought-out plan for eventually returning to normal. Thoughts from @Spanish Rider? What does the COVID-19 endgame look like? 

Five simple steps. Amir Attaran: Social distancing is the only option—there is no alternative. Here’s how we might eventually ease back into normal life, in a way that saves lives.

March 27, 2020

Amir Attaran is a biomedical scientist, a lawyer, and a professor in the Faculty of Law and the School of Epidemiology and Public Health at the University of Ottawa.

On Jan. 30, the World Health Organization declared COVID-19 a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern”. Since then, it caught Canada badly unprepared, and it has clobbered us. People are wondering when the misery of being cooped up at home and losing paychecks will end. 

Obviously there is no single answer to this question. It depends on science, guided by knowable laws, and politics, which is an ocean of human vagaries. 

I write this article as a scientist to help explain what a reasonable COVID-19 endgame could look like—not to frighten, but to show that there is light at the end of the tunnel. To understand it, it is necessary to know the basics of epidemic control for SARS-CoV-2, the viral agent of COVID-19. You can read this article alone, or use the links to dip deeper into the science if you are curious.

Every person infected with SARS-CoV-2 is a potential transmitter of infection, whether or not they are showing symptoms, which typically begin around the fifth day. Estimates vary, but each infected person is thought to pass the infection to around two or three others. This is called the basic reproductive number, or Ro, (pronounced “R-naught”) and so long as it remains above one, the epidemic is on an exponential up-slope. 

The key to beating SARS-CoV-2 is to bring Ro down to below one and keep it there, meaning that each infected person passes the infection to fewer than one other. That puts the epidemic on a down-slope, until it flickers out. Everything—absolutely everything—else is distraction. 

So how do you suppress Ro? There are several ways in theory, but currently only one way in practice.

While not recommended, many would get infected and die of COVID-19—the elderly more than the young, men more than women, the immunocompromised more than the hale and hearty—but it can happen to anyone. 

Most of those who survive would acquire natural immunity to future infection, at least for a time. Once 40 to 70 per cent of the population acquires immunity this way, “herd immunity” sets in and Ro dips under one because there are few susceptibles left. We do not know this for certain, but since monkeys can become immune to SARS-CoV-2, and humans can for other coronaviruses, it is a pretty safe bet.

Another way to raise herd immunity is with a vaccine. You can buy a coronavirus vaccine for your dog, but not for humans, and no miracle can bring that about this year. Not only is that a great shame, but a testament to short-sightedness because governments lost interest in funding human coronavirus vaccinology after beating the 2003 SARS pandemic—or else a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine probably would be within reach. (Canada is guiltier of that than any other country, having pledged an initiative for a human vaccine, but so stingily that the clinical trials never began, which is also what it did for the Ebola vaccine.)

Without herd immunity or a vaccine, the best alternative is a drug that squelches the high “viral load” and risk of death in seriously ill patients, and perhaps the ability of mildly ill patients to infect others. This approach has worked brilliantly for HIV/AIDS. Trouble is, there is no drug for SARS-CoV-2, and it will take months to trial the most promising candidates. A related possibility is to transfuse convalescent plasma, which is a blood product containing the antibodies from people who fought off the infection and lived, and this too is being experimented with, though it is very hard to scale up. 

Which leaves just one option: “social distancing”, or in plain English, putting something between infected and non-infected persons to drive Ro below one. 

The “distance” could be quarantine, self-isolation, or possibly making everyone wear surgical masks in public and around sick family members. Currently we are doing the first two. We definitely cannot do the last because masks are so extremely scarce that health care workers are forced to ration them. Clearly Canada blew this preparation, and Ontario even let its emergency stockpile of 55 million masks expire without replacement. But if someday there are masks enough, some (including me) think masking up Canadians is rational and promising to try. 

And that’s the answer: social distancing is the only endgame we have. There simply is no alternative. Anyone doubting it should watch this excellent animation from the Washington Post. The question then becomes how best to do it, and later, how best to ease back into normal life, in a way that saves lives and does the least harm to society and the economy. 

Fortunately this difficult sounding task breaks down into some simple steps.

Step 1: Lock it down and test

We have to remain distanced long enough—and much harder than we are already, about which more later—to choke off viral transmission in the community. People must stay at home. Non-essential workplaces must shutter. We absolutely must lock down almost everyone in Canada until community transmission of SARS-CoV-2 plateaus and declines to virtually nil. We can lock down half-heartedly and wait months for that, or we can do it ferociously and punch through in a couple weeks—our choice. Only then will we have regained control of this epidemic, and bought ourselves a second chance to coexist with the virus in a careful way. 

While Step 1 is underway, Canada and the provinces must solve their appalling, inexcusable failure of performing too few SARS-CoV-2 tests too slowly. The waiting time for results must come down from many days to just hours, because without speedy testing it is impossible to detect and isolate infected people early, so as to spare sickness and death to their families and the community. 

All the open societies that have battled COVID-19 well, such as Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan, mastered rapid testing and reaction, because they prepared months or years ahead of Canada. 

Without a rapid testing capacity, the next steps I describe will not work, so fixing this must be among government’s highest priorities.

Step 2: Release the least vulnerable 

Once Step 1 brings community transmission of the virus to virtually nil, then we can start releasing some—not all—people back into the community, one cohort at a time. Logically we should start with the least vulnerable to severe illness, likely meaning the young, generally healthy, and not immunosuppressed, though scientists need to gather more evidence between now and then to prove these assumptions correct. 

Step 3: Keep calm and do contact tracing

Some of this cohort will become infected and sick, but that is not a disaster. Because it is a fraction of the Canadian population, our intensive care units can manage without overflowing or running out of ventilators. Meanwhile our public health workers can use their improved testing capacity on anyone showing symptoms, and move rapidly to quarantine the positives, trace their social contacts, monitor and test those contacts, and quarantine them too if necessary. That epidemiological game of whack-a-mole (or “contact tracing” in the jargon) keeps up until the last positive contacts are found, and community transmission again drops to virtually nil—meaning that it is time to move to the next step. 

Step 4: The second wave of integration

After the first cohort has reintegrated, likely taking several weeks, the economy has restarted somewhat, our health professionals have the kinks worked out, and more people have been infected bringing us a little bit closer to herd immunity—all of which means that the hardship and risk to the second cohort is less. 

Probably that second cohort consists of people somewhat vulnerable to severe illness, such as the middle aged, though I repeat science can refine the criteria between now and then. Repeat Step 3 for the second cohort, stick with the rapid contact tracing, and once again, wait for community transmission to drop to virtually nil before moving on. This round should pass faster than the first.

Step 5: The third and final wave

By now you have guessed the next step. Life is starting to resemble normal in the outside world, and it is time to release the third cohort of people most vulnerable to severe illness, likely the elderly, pregnant and anyone with an immunosuppressive medical condition. 

They are at less risk for having waited, because by now medical science probably will have learned something about saving the lives of the extremely sick. Perhaps clinical trials have even found a drug to help them through the danger. Repeat Step 3 again.

Throughout: While Steps 1-5 are playing out, no doubt scientists and hospitals will acquire an accurate, easy serological test, which determines whether a person has been infected in the past and mounted antibodies that can protect against future infection. That knowledge can be useful, for example by placing likely immune people in the riskiest jobs.

We also will need to perform routine serosurveys to determine how many people in Canada are likely immune. If our population-level immunity remains low, then extra vigilance is needed because any reintroduction of the virus, possibly by travellers, would spread like wildfire. 

But if in a year or so, the number of seropositive people reaches around 40 to 70 per cent, then we will have reached the threshold of herd immunity and the virus no longer presents a major threat. There will be sporadic outbreaks, but none that contact tracing cannot extinguish. Gradually life will become more or less exactly as before. 

At this point, we have won.

But before Canada can pull this off, Ottawa needs to beat up on the provinces that are not being helpful. The least predictable part of this scenario is where we are right now: Step 1. The longer it takes for social distancing to hit its peak, throttle Ro, and bring community transmission to virtually nil, the longer most of us have to remain cooped up or unsafe, and the longer before normal life resumes in Canada. I repeat: there is a choice of how aggressively Canada acts on social distancing now, and whether Step 1 takes weeks or months is up to us.

The holdup now is that some provinces are sabotaging social distancing for their pet industries. Ontario has declared all manufacturing and construction is essential, as if all goods are in equal demand and quarantined Ontarians cannot live without home renovations. Alberta considers the oil sands essential, although bitumen is being sold at a loss, and tens of thousands of employees from across Canada are stuffed into work camps that are superb incubators for acquiring and then dispersing infection and death to every corner of this country. 

These lagging provinces and industries, and others like them, need to be given 24 hours to change their minds, or Ottawa must use coercion including the Emergencies Act or even new emergency legislation to rein in their operations because they are putting all Canadians in danger. 

So far Ottawa has proceeded too meekly—indeed unscientifically, I would add. Unless it steps up, and puts this country on a science-based course to the COVID-19 endgame, Canada is in for a very hard ride. Ottawa bungled the preparation game. It remains to be seen if its closing game is any better.

https://www.macleans.ca/society/science/what-does-the-covid-19-endgame-look-like-five-simple-steps/


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## ACinATX

@4horses you make a lot of good points. I for one thought the universal basic income would be impractical (If you increase the floor, all costs eventually go up, and you still leave the poorest behind) but maybe it does make sense in this situation. I would support it at this point.

Changing the topic a little, the cases where I live skew strongly toward the middle and younger end of the age spectrum. As of yesterday, we have approx 170 cases with one death (I suppose we are still on the early part of the curve), but the largest number of cases by far was in the 30-39 age group, with the second largest in the 20-29 age group. Now, our city skews young to begin with, but it has been so amazingly hard to get tested that these numbers have to represent people with significant symptoms (those are the only people getting tested, and even then not all of them are getting the test). In other words, at least where I live, at least now, the people showing strong symptoms are mostly younger.


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## Acadianartist

@ACinATX is it possible it's because this is the age group that is most likely to have traveled recently?


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## SilverMaple

We have several suspected cases locally-- but no testing, still. All of them are 'snowbirds' fleeing Florida and back early for the summer, family of college students who returned from Spring Break two weeks ago, and one father of a son who came back from New York a week ago. Prior to the past week, all confirmed cases in our state were related to people on ONE Egyptian cruise...

Stopping ALL TRAVEL other than essential shipping would be key to shutting this thing down, but it should have happened weeks ago. Now travel has exposed the entire country. The sheer number of people likely to be exposed from Spring Breakers in California and Florida alone who have returned home is mind-boggling.


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## Spanish Rider

@ACinATX , my expertise is surgery, so anything more than basic virology and immunlogy escape me, but what appears to be the problem in younger people is being exposed to greater viral loads, which in turn trigger a massive inflammatory response known as a "cytokine storm". It is a defense mechanism of our immune system and, unfortunately, the younger and healthier you are, the greater the protective immune reaction (massive 'storm') and the greater the inflammation in the lungs.

This is why it is so incredibly important for health workers to have testing available, because if the test positive they can isolate and not be exposd to a greater viral load. Also, they need to be more closely monitored tan the general public because, with higher loads than the general public, the inflammatory reponse can be greater and faster.

I am getting in a ton of work right now, so if anyone reads up more on cytokine 'storm' response in COVID19, please give us an overview.


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## Spanish Rider

@Acadianartist , 

In theory, that is the approach I believe most governments are analyzing right now.

HOWEVER, I see a big problem with Step 2: release the least vulnerable. I do NOT believe that this should include children. We know, beyond a shadow of a doubt (although based on zero reliable evidence) that children, teens and young adults have been carriers of Covid19. When they go back to school, the wave will start again, bringing the virus home, infecting vulnerable parents and grandparents. Plus, it is one thing to have one child in a classroom who is positive, and it would be a far different scenario to have several children in a classroom positive, with the virus bouncng off each other, making each other sicker and putting themselves, their families and teachers at higher risk forworse disease.

So, in 'stimulating' the economy, I think a different approach would have to be taken for schools. Delays? Reduced hours? Fewer kids per class? No recess, no lunch? Everyone with masks and gloves sitting behind screens (like in South Korea)? Probably a combination of several measures, plus rotation of teachers, and repeated testing.

In all of this, the solutions still come down to testing, isolation, and biding our time until a vaccine comes out. And in the interim, major investment in preparing hospitals, with staff and resources, production of equipment, r+d, and crunching the numbers to develop targeted treatments for different presentations and associated comorbidities, etc.


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## BzooZu

Slovakia here again and I have to say - so far so good. We started mass testings and our number of people infected by COVID-19 raised to 314. More testing will be happening so we are expecting the numbers to go higher in the following weeks. People are in quarentines (self-imposed or otherwise), people who come home from abroad are sent to state managed hotels and isolated, then tested and if not positive they are sent home to continue the quarantine there.

Face masks have been mandatory for almost 3 weeks now and it will probably stay that way for some time. Many shops are earning money by doing deliveries or by taking online/phone orders and then just setting up a pick up time for people to come get their things. Yes the economy will suffer, our dept will deepen and many small companies will close. But my colleagues/friends/family who I talked to thinks our leaders are actually doing the right thing at the right time (so far). Everyone is staying at home - our media are talking about coronavirus all day long, showing us the statistics, the situation in other countries, so many of us are scared to go out. Its depressing but it is seriously helping with slowing down the virus in our country.

Our alcohol making companies started producing desinfection liquids as side business, people are sewing masks for everyone, many scientists shifted their focus to things to help with the pandemic (easier to make and cheaper respirators and tons of other medical equipement is being tested and some are actually starting to be manufactured right now) so not everything is completely bleak now.

Sadly, this will take forever, but as long as we can protect our most vulnerable people, the people who provide essential services, our doctors and nurses its all worth it. Some people think they wont get it so why would they care, but just think about the death rates and imagine one, two or even more of your family members/friends dying and hopefully thats enough not to take it lightly.


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## tinyliny

There are some advantages to being in a small country. Mass testing in the US would be a real challenge, but it will eventually need to be done.


Here people are making masks and distilleries are making hand sanitizers, too. I bought a tv the other day, ordered it online, drove to store's parking lot and they brought it out and loaded it in my car. After taking out of box, we washed our hands carefully before putting the Tv up.


I use a glove when I put gas in my car, which is very rare, since I don't really drive anywhere. But, the gas pump handle is very dirty, I'm sure.


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## Remali

Hoping the antibody test will be available for everyone, soon. Will be helpful to know who was exposed to the virus. Sort of like titer testing in dogs.

Numbers are really going up quickly where I live, over one thousand now in Wisconsin, like everywhere it goes up daily. Sat out in my lawn chair the other day, felt good to get some sunshine and fresh air.


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## gjb

Our latest update here in Ohio. 1653, 403 hospitalized, 139 in ICU and 29 deaths.
Our governor is telling us they expect the surge in 2 weeks. With the worst around middle of May.

Today he had a news conference about one of our local companies, Battelle has found a way to sterilize the used N95 masks. He had a call into the President asking him to get this approval through the FDA, NOW. FDA is willing to approve 10,000 masks and not the 80,000 per machine that can be done.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ons-mask-sterilization-technology/2936670001/


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## tinyliny

couldn't a person just put them in the oven, and heat them up? even modestly hot food will kill the virus. I was going to say microwave them, but the metal inside would kill your microwave.


Or, even just allowing them to sit unused for a week, in a warm place, would kill the virus, no?


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## Acadianartist

Testing is on the low end here too. So far, you will only get tested if you have symptoms and have traveled. We got 15 new cases in the province today though, so numbers are going up (though I realize this is still low compared to some parts of the world) and we have a total of 66 cases in the province. I suspect that if people have symptoms, they are now being tested even if they haven't traveled. The problem is that my province (New Brunswick) is largely rural. There are three cities, but they're not huge and people live quite far from each other. This might be a good thing, but it makes testing on a large scale difficult. 

Meanwhile people are out ignoring the social isolation rules. My neighbors across the road had a big bonfire in their yard today. There were four cars there today and they all sat around the fire socializing. Probably a dozen people were there. And the couple living there just had a baby too! I just don't get it. I'm hearing reports of people throwing parties and noticed that a lot of the new cases were in younger people in their 20s and 30s. People can be fined for all of this, but it's impossible to police. I just don't get it. I understand the argument that people need to go back to work even if I don't like the discussion around the importance of the economy, but breaking the rules for something as stupid as a house party? People are idiots. We're all doomed.


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## tinyliny

As to the bonfire party . . if the people do not touch anything except what they themselves brought , such as a chair and food, etc. . . and they stay a good 6 to 8 feet apart, wouldn't that be reasonably safe?
I had a 'tea party' with my neighbors the other sunny day. They sat in their chairs, on their side of the picket fences at least 8 feet from me, and we each brought out tea, we put on some soft music and we chatted. It seemed reasonable to me.


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## Acadianartist

tinyliny said:


> As to the bonfire party . . if the people do not touch anything except what they themselves brought , such as a chair and food, etc. . . and they stay a good 6 to 8 feet apart, wouldn't that be reasonably safe?
> I had a 'tea party' with my neighbors the other sunny day. They sat in their chairs, on their side of the picket fences at least 8 feet from me, and we each brought out tea, we put on some soft music and we chatted. It seemed reasonable to me.


Well, I'd agree with you except that they were all huddled together and going in and out of the house, so definitely not social distancing.


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## Spanish Rider

Just thought I would share a clip my son's basketball team made to #StayHome, which was aired on the news today.


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## RegalCharm

Acadianartist said:


> @gottatrot, the idea of a universal income has been resurfacing in my part of Canada for some time now (before the pandemic). *The idea is that it would be a very, very basic income. Not like Cuba where a doctor makes the same salary as a janitor, but an income that would allow you to live with the most basic of means. No extras. So no horses, no new car, no vacations, only enough to get by. I think that would be enough to motivate people to want to have better jobs so they could have all the extras.*



Sounds like a good idea on paper but it will not work in practice.
Sure some people could/would move up to higher paying jobs but those jobs would be filled quickly. They are not unlimited.

And all people would not have the skill set or knowledge to preform some jobs. So you would still end up with a society of the poor, middle class and the wealthy. 

Socialists talk a good game but in the end it doesn't work. Like Margret Thatcher said, " Socialism is good till you run out of other peoples money."


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## Horsef

Serbia here.

Our numbers are going up steadily but there is no exponential growth even though we have increased testing to include all contacts, even people without symptoms. Currently at 741 and new cases have been steady around 80 for the past four days. The doctors are still able to trace more than 95% of infections which is really, really great. 

Our main issue is that 300.000 people have returned into the country, mainly from heavily affected areas because they lost their jobs over there.

It appears that young people are silently rebelling. For two days in a row streets and parks were chock full of them. And it feels deliberate, not just clueless.

Another category is also up in arms - dog owners. And there is a very large number of them. Evening walk has been banned and dogs must now hold it from 17:00 PM to 05:00 AM. Even worse, on weekends it starts at 15:00PM.

So, there is a lot of dissent, either because people just don’t care or because people are deliberately showing their discontent. The president has announced tonight that if people don’t get back into their homes soon, he will enact a 24 hour total lockdown for two weeks where no one will be allowed out, not even to the stores. So, things seem to be slipping towards extreme solutions. We’ll see how it goes. It might have worked in China but people here may not be as compliant.

Today they’ve started closing up people who are positive without symptoms. They are warehousing them in large halls and arenas. So far without incident but I guess that’s coming too. When you put 3000 people in one place, the situation could easily escalate (there’s only 30 of them so far so not exactly a crowd). People without symptoms are more likely to be young and therefore against the president. The army is guarding those facilities and they aren’t really known for their tactful approach to crowd control. So we sit and wait.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

OK is up to 429 cases and 16 deaths as of 0700 this morning. I suspect that by this time tomorrow, we're going to be over 600. The results of the new tests are coming in faster, so we're going to really spike while we catch up. I understand the incorporated city to my north will be issuing a "shelter in place" order as of Tuesday morning. We'll get details tomorrow night after the city council meeting. I live in the county area, so it won't really affect me much, about the only time I got into the city is to see a doctor, grocery shopping or feed shopping and those are all considered essential activities.


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## Chevaux

I feel your angst, horsef. The cynic in me says that there are “players” who see an opportunity to advance their situation in our current dilemma and they are doing just that but I also believe that the people of honour, sense and clear thought will outnumber them and they will prevail in the end.

The last I heard a couple of days ago, btw, there were 95 cases in my province (Saskatchewan) with a little more than half of them in the under 45 age group and just two or three folks requiring hospitalization.


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## SilverMaple

15 kids out at the neighbors playing basketball all afternoon while their parents sat around and drank beer. *head desk*


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## tinyliny

poeple and governments need to be reasonable. Why would the government ban walking your dog at night? that's just purely foolish. We only need to stay about 2 meters apart, and avoid touching surfaces. I don't see why that would preclude people taking the dogs out for a walk.


I rode my bike out in the neighborhood. Many families were out walking, but we stay 2 to 3 meters apart at least. many 'hello!" and "how are you?" friendly greetings. It feels like a real neighborhood!


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## gottatrot

Spanish Rider said:


> @ACinATX , my expertise is surgery, so anything more than basic virology and immunlogy escape me, but what appears to be the problem in younger people is being exposed to greater viral loads, which in turn trigger a massive inflammatory response known as a "cytokine storm". It is a defense mechanism of our immune system and, unfortunately, the younger and healthier you are, the greater the protective immune reaction (massive 'storm') and the greater the inflammation in the lungs...
> 
> ...I am getting in a ton of work right now, so if anyone reads up more on cytokine 'storm' response in COVID19, please give us an overview.


I haven't read that younger people are more likely to show signs of cytokine storm. However, it's not likely to be related to the amount of virus in the body, rather the body's response to a viral trigger.

Cytokines are proteins that help the immune system response against infection. They help the body trigger inflammation, which makes the cells needed to fight infection rush to the area of insult, such as the lungs. Unfortunately, while on a normal level this is very helpful, in some people the response is overblown, similar to how people with allergies have exaggerated immune responses that are unhelpful.

There are a couple of reasons why children and younger people might have less serious responses in general to Covid19. One is that their immune systems are immature, so they are less likely to have an exaggerated immune response. Another is that older people may already have antibodies to coronaviruses since they are a common source of colds. However, these will be the wrong antibodies for Covid19, so the body can be lulled into thinking it recognizes the infection and not go into action until the virus has already taken over. 

There is some evidence that a certain cell mutation can make people more likely to have Cytokine storm, which has been known to happen in response to certain medications as well as 80 or more pathogens. Every ICU should be watching patients for this type of response, which is a type of SIRS or Systemic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. It is commonly seen with sepsis and flu, so all ICUs should be well versed in taking care of it.
H1N1 in particular was known for triggering exaggerated Cytokine release. 

I like this idea of mass testing people for Covid antibodies. It would be a way to preserve the economy while also protecting people from getting sick. Anyone with antibodies could be released to go back to work and keep things going. 
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dr-jon-lapook-on-the-value-of-antibody-tests-for-past-coronavirus-infection/


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## Horsef

Africa: I don’t live there but I have friends and family who do.

Even though it wasn’t on the radar just a week ago, Nigeria has implemented a two week lock down now. All non-essential business will close. I don’t have too many details because our friend is so scared, he’s not making too much sense. From what we could gather, the lockdown happened almost overnight because one of the high up generals and 70 of his staff got ill. Also, their economy is based on oil prices and that isn’t helping much at the moment.

South Africa: they went into lockdown on Thursday. It is much more orderly than Nigeria. All non-essential businesses are closed and people are only allowed out to the store, pharmacy and for medical reasons. They had a massive church service with over 1000 present where there was a positive person present so now they are scrambling to isolate those people.

They’ve banned alcohol and tobacco sales for two weeks. I understand about alcohol. There is a huge issue in the townships (shantytowns). Tobacco is a bit confusing but it appears they are thinking of allowing that again.

Enforcement of the lockdown isn’t going too well in the townships. These are huge, with millions of poor people living in them and have very little sanitation infrastructure. One particular township, Alexandra in Johannesburg, has always been very troublesome and it appears that the authorities have given up trying and are now just stopping people from leaving Alexandra. Soweto (the epicenter of anti-apartheid struggles) is the biggest township in South Africa but it’s also much more developed than the rest of them and large parts of it have developed into decent neighborhoods. Up to date there wasn’t widespread flaunting of the lockdown in there, which is good news.

All in all, the issues we are having here in Europe are minuscule compared to what the local authorities are going up against in Africa.

I wish them best of luck.


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## Spanish Rider

Starting today, Spain has implemented what we assumed was coming: no family members allowed at funerals. This is not just for COVID19 deaths, but for any death. They just can't bury the bodies fast enough (and no embalming).





> Every ICU should be watching patients for this type of response


Yes, but we are at the point where not everyone who needs ICU care can get it.


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## kewpalace

Checking in after a week of being off work. Brought Pi home on Monday - ran to a Costco in Bakersfield before and got a few things. They were out of eggs, TP and Paper Towels, but I had gotten some of each before the Poo hit the fan, so I'm pretty stocked. Wednesday went to San Bernardino to take my Mom Shopping and then ran errands on the way home. Stopped at the Costco in Victorville for eggs for Matt's Family; they also needed TP but no luck, but I gave them a pack from my Costco pack. Matt said his elderly neighbor needed some so went on the hunt for it and found the Staters' in Mojave had some. I'm pretty well stocked for food & water. Seems like every day I've had to go out for something - but not that. Usually horse supplies.

Court will be closed for civil matters until 5/26 at this time. I can't believe we'll be off work until then. The Supervising Attorney said they will open sooner than that for criminal matters, so I'll likely get to in at that time. It's really locality dependent on whether people are practicing the proper amount of social distancing. I had to tell one lady who was literally breathing down my neck in the Costco checkout like she needed to get back. Most people are good and are respectful in the grocery stores. I am glad to be able to stay home the last few days ... been spending a lot of time doing house cleaning stuff I would have never have done. Today is warm enough that I can go for a ride later this afternoon.


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## kewpalace

Spanish Rider said:


> Starting today, Spain has implemented what we assumed was coming: no family members allowed at funerals. This is not just for COVID19 deaths, but for any death.
> They just can't bury the bodies fast enough (and no embalming).


 That's so sad & horrible.


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## tinyliny

kewpalace said:


> Checking in after a week of being off work.* Brought Pi home on Monday - ran to a Costco in Bakersfield before and got a few things. They were out of eggs, TP and Paper Towels, but I had gotten some of each before the Poo hit the fan, so I'm pretty stocked. Wednesday went to San Bernardino to take my Mom Shopping and then ran errands on the way home. Stopped at the Costco in Victorville for eggs for Matt's Family; they also needed TP but no luck, but I gave them a pack from my Costco pack. Matt said his elderly neighbor needed some so went on the hunt for it and found the Staters' in Mojave *had some. I'm pretty well stocked for food & water. Seems like every day I've had to go out for something - but not that. Usually horse supplies.





This is not a personal attack, but the bolded portion indicates a person travelling to something like 6 or 7 locales. If that person where one of the asymptomatic carriers, they could have possibyly created just as many new vectors for the disease. That is why we are being asked to not operate as usual.


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## gunslinger

Well, a person has to go out for supplies....but you're right, the more you can distance the better off things will be....


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## RegalCharm

tinyliny said:


> This is not a personal attack, but the bolded portion indicates a person travelling to something like 6 or 7 locales. If that person where one of the asymptomatic carriers, they could have possibyly created just as many new vectors for the disease. That is why we are being asked to not operate as usual.


 @tinyliny

Not only that , but it also increases a persons chances of running into a person who is asymptomatic carriers thus catching the virus themselves.

And Washington state banned fishing statewide today or yesterday. They said the boat ramps were to crowded.
https://www.foxnews.com/great-outdoors/washington-bans-recreational-fishing-slow-coronavirus


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## Spanish Rider

> Not only that , but it also increases a persons chances of running into a person who is asymptomatic carriers thus catching the virus themselves.


And we should not forget that every infected person going to the hospital for treatment exposes healthcare workers to higher and higher viral loads, putting their lives at risk.

Italy has now had 61 physicians and nurses die. In Spain, we've already had several - just yesterday a GP near our rural town who was only 29 years old.


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## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> And we should not forget that every infected person going to the hospital for treatment exposes healthcare workers to higher and higher viral loads, putting their lives at risk.
> 
> Italy has now had 61 physicians and nurses die. In Spain, we've already had several - just yesterday a GP near our rural town who was only 29 years old.


I’ve been meaning to ask, and I’m fairly certain that the answer is mainly guess work: how does mass confinement of asymptomatic and people with light symptoms work? Is it risky with regards to outcomes- compared to individual isolation?


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## Spanish Rider

This is a big debate right now amongst physicians and virologists here. If a containment facility is used like in Wuhan, and like you said is being done in Serbia, even though patients are mildly symptomatic or asymptomatic, they still need to be separated by 6 feet/2 meters because they are shedding the virus and could increase each other's viral load, theoretically worsening each other's disease. So, that's why Madrid is using empty hotels, because at most you would have 2 people to a room, although the bathroom would be shared. However, that is only being done for identified cases that are being medicated.

Because we still are not testing _en masse_ (just got in our first plane with supplies yesterday), people who suspect they have the virus but do not have dyspnea are supposed to isolate at home. But, if the person does not have their own individual bedroom and bathroom, the rest of the family is being exposed for a prolonged period of time, likely debuting with worse disease than the person who was isolating. Of course, this would probably mean more infections in smaller homes, such as city apartments, or in more modest homes. This is a lot of what we are seeing now in Madrid, because the new cases being reported today are of patients who have spent the past 15 days at home in quarantine.

And that is why it escalates. Because initially it only affects the old, then maybe middle-aged people with comorbidities, and then boom. Or, at least, that is what happened in Italy, and now in Spain. 



The GOOD news is that the OMS debunked the aerosol theory (there was a report that the virus could remain airborn for 3h, but the aerosol was machine-generated), so we once again need to focus only on droplets. https://www.who.int/news-room/comme...plications-for-ipc-precaution-recommendations


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## Horsef

Well, isn’t that just jolly.
@Spanish Rider thank you.

We are lucky that they are letting the doctors speak at press conferences every day - and in order to appear impartial, they don’t have any handlers. Doctors are not politicians and they sometimes let things slip.

One of the things which made the hair at back of my neck stand up is when they were talking about what the Chinese experts were advising them to do: “Confinement should be individual to improve outcomes but we don’t have facilities so we’ll go with large halls”. I have previously read about medical staff having bad outcomes due to high viral loads. And the distance between beds is less than one meter, it’s the width of a bedside table... Sooo, it’s a nope.

I am trying very hard not to impute sinister intent but I will think long and hard whether we report mild symptoms. I will also have to take into account that bad outcomes have a rather large correlation with time spent at home before reporting to a hospital which I found in quite a few studies. The longer people stay at home, the worse the outcome. (Self-selecting sample...something, something...I need to read and think about this some more)

Before you all shout at me, I have not had any contact with anyone for five days so I wouldn’t be putting anyone else in danger should any symptoms appear (hopefully not).


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## AuG

boots said:


> Here in Wyoming many of us are disgusted by the number of tourists who are coming. Like having to stay home from work + schools being closed = vacation!
> 
> The Crow Rez, north of here, isn't letting non-locals leave the highways. I don't blame them. There is a clinic, with good services. But no hospital beds. There is a small hospital, but anyone very ill would have to go more than an hour north or south to get full care.



This quote is from the other thread but the same has been happening here. The shopping centres were packed with children last week (when the schools were still open) and unsurprisingly, cases jumped in the region by the weekend. 

We have regional lockouts starting from midnight tonight, it did not stop people travelling down for the weekend races. Friends of mine run a roadhouse and were astounded by the amount of people coming through before the weekend for no good reason other than "holidays". There are 5 icu beds in the entire region. These families are so selfish it is mindblowing. Along with those who proclaim it only affects the old and disabled, like we are less worthy of care. Spose, that's not a new attitude though. 

Anyway besides that. I still think our state is doing ok. The advice is clear, it is the people who are the problem. I'd like to see more in the media of those recovered and those who are doing the right thing.


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## Horsef

@AuG large scale migration is to be expected in a pandemic these days. I know of three large scale migrations which are happening or have happened very recently, all to do with migrant work force.

My home country, Serbia, took in 300.000 of our citizens who lost their jobs in Italy, Austria and Germany. It doesn’t sound a lot but that’s roughly 5% of our population coming back from the epicenters of the epidemic.

In South Africa and India people are moving back to their villages from large urban centers in their millions if not tens of millions. Lots of them in India are on foot because public transportation has been stopped. They are typically moving to very poor places with very minimal infrastructure. Think no electricity and communal wells and latrines. Closest GP an hour away on foot and closest hospitals even further. That sort of thing. And typically they are going home to their elderly parents.

If anything changes after this has run it’s course, special attention should be paid to these migrations as well as the massive repatriation effort going on in almost all countries. But somehow I get a feeling there will be a whole bunch of conferences for a while until everyone loses interest. If Ebola and SARS1 didn’t give us a fright, this will be forgotten as well.


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## tinyliny

Today , watching TV for the first time in 3 days, I was struck by a discussion on this piecemeal approach to lockdown strategies, and how this will negatively impact EVERYONE, especailly those of us who bit the bullet early on and locked down weeks before everyone else did.


When one state does not do a total lockdown, like the more affected states do, its trajectory for reaching the top of the curve will be just reaching it's highest point, MOST able to infect anyone passing through or connecting with that state's population, . . just when the other hard working, dedicated, long suffering states are ready to come OUT of a 3 month lock down. 



Guess what will happen? the infection will spread out again, and those early responding state will be forced back into total lockdown. The foolishness of some of the states will force those that were prudent to suffer even longer .


We must have a national strategy. ALL AMERICANS must pull together and bear the brunt of this. All of us, NOW, get it over with so that we can get up and on with it as soon as possible, not drag it out over and over and over again.


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## Wild Heart

Just joining in on the thread, as its been absolutely mad in my neck of the woods.


I'm from New York about 3 hours outside the city which generally makes me feel safe but currently I've been on high alert. I live with my parents, my father a current RN at our local hospital and my mother a retired RN with a list of issues and a very weak immune system.

I'm considered high risk as well due to a few lung issues, however I am also an "essential worker" as I work at a pet store. At the store we've been doing frequent wipe down on registers and carts. Implementing the 6ft distancing rule as well by using tape on the ground by high traffic areas (registers and fish walls).

However, from what I've seen. People have been treating this like spring break. It honestly disgusts me. Parents are bringing in their children frequently asking to hold the animals as "all the zoos are closed and this is the next best thing" and of course, when handling animals you have to be much closer than 6ft to the customer.


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## loosie

tinyliny said:


> poeple and governments need to be reasonable. Why would the government ban walking your dog at night? that's just purely foolish. We only need to stay about 2 meters apart, and avoid touching surfaces. I don't see why that would preclude people taking the dogs out for a walk.


Yes, like horse riding, where you're going to be at least around 2 metres(rules are 1.5m(5') here - go figure) anyway. Darcy & I are going for a trail ride tomoz as while some people have been making noises about rules saying no horse riding off private property, I have looked & looked & asked those who said so for sources & not found anything that says that myself. 

My father got told off by the police for taking his mirror dingy out, by himself, today, and beaches are closed, someone got told she'd be fined if she even walked home along the beach the way she came, had to go up & walk on the footpath with her daughter. This is despite the official noises saying you can walk & swim on the beach, just not hang out/sunbath there. SOOO many inconsistancies.

I can only think the seemingly illogical rules such as no dog walking or walking on beaches etc alone is to try to discourage those who are 'flaunting' the rules. Apparently my old town where I used to live(tourist area) was inundated on the weekend by tourists! But not so sure & re those who are not taking it serious, those who are 'selfishly' going out & about, etc, I must say, with all the lies & misinformation we have been fed, with all the seemingly illogical & changes in guidelines (hairdressers are allowed to operate but only 30 min max appts... no scrap that, 40 mins is ok... no scrap that, we'll stick to 30 mins...), I don't blame people for being so skeptical & confused, so I wouldn't call it 'selfish' or 'flaunting' for the most part.


----------



## MeditativeRider

tinyliny said:


> Today , watching TV for the first time in 3 days, I was struck by a discussion on this piecemeal approach to lockdown strategies, and how this will negatively impact EVERYONE
> 
> We must have a national strategy. ALL AMERICANS must pull together and bear the brunt of this. All of us, NOW, get it over with so that we can get up and on with it as soon as possible, not drag it out over and over and over again.


This is my impression of it all from afar (New Zealand). 

Knowing how much it can be spread by people with no to very mild symptoms traveling to another region and then not self-isolating, this article and image comparison I saw the other day highlights that worry.

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/flight-tracker-shows-contrast-between-nz-us-lockdownso


----------



## loosie

Can people with factual(or as factual as there is) knowledge, I know it's more time & effort, but can you please put/copy that stuff to the other thread; https://www.horseforum.com/general-...19-facts-current-stats-policies-813235/page5/ And @gottatrot can you resend me/there the link on 'myths' please? I have totally lost track of this extremely long thread many many pages ago, to be able to copy the relevant stuff there myself.


----------



## Horsef

loosie said:


> Can people with factual(or as factual as there is) knowledge, I know it's more time & effort, but can you please put/copy that stuff to the other thread; https://www.horseforum.com/general-...19-facts-current-stats-policies-813235/page5/ And @gottatrot can you resend me/there the link on 'myths' please? I have totally lost track of this extremely long thread many many pages ago, to be able to copy the relevant stuff there myself.


I have thanked you privately, but I think it needs to be acknowledged publicly as well - thank you for moderating during difficult times.

This particular thread must be a challenge to wrangle.


----------



## loosie

...and can people in the know please tell me if the loss of taste/smell as a symptom is real or not? I've been on again off again with flu-like symptoms - not very runny nose, not really sore, but bit tickly throat & fluey aches, feeling like my glands are up, feeling a fluey kind of nausea occasionally... I enjoyed a curry last night tho, enjoyed an iced chocolate that Darcy just made me tho...

Please, please, let me be well, so that after another week or so(been super, super careful for last 5 days... careful but husband working in city till then), so I can go stay with my old, sick, all alone mum... my brother or sisters haven't been able to see her in the last week either as they've been... in various risky situations.


----------



## Horsef

loosie said:


> Yes, like horse riding, where you're going to be at least around 2 metres(rules are 1.5m(5') here - go figure) anyway. Darcy & I are going for a trail ride tomoz as while some people have been making noises about rules saying no horse riding off private property, I have looked & looked & asked those who said so for sources & not found anything that says that myself.
> 
> My father got told off by the police for taking his mirror dingy out, by himself, today, and beaches are closed, someone got told she'd be fined if she even walked home along the beach the way she came, had to go up & walk on the footpath with her daughter. This is despite the official noises saying you can walk & swim on the beach, just not hang out/sunbath there. SOOO many inconsistancies.
> 
> I can only think the seemingly illogical rules such as no dog walking or walking on beaches etc alone is to try to discourage those who are 'flaunting' the rules. Apparently my old town where I used to live(tourist area) was inundated on the weekend by tourists! But not so sure & re those who are not taking it serious, those who are 'selfishly' going out & about, etc, I must say, with all the lies & misinformation we have been fed, with all the seemingly illogical & changes in guidelines (hairdressers are allowed to operate but only 30 min max appts... no scrap that, 40 mins is ok... no scrap that, we'll stick to 30 mins...), I don't blame people for being so skeptical & confused, so I wouldn't call it 'selfish' or 'flaunting' for the most part.


I think that police are also being stretched very thin so just reducing the amount of stuff that needs policing in the first place is a logical solution. I know my compatriots are very non-compliant and rule-bendy bunch so I get why they introduced no-dog walking at night. I watched people congregate and have a good hour-long gossip session and one evening they even brought out beer and joints. Yup. If you have a disciplined population, like Japan - the government can be reasonable. If you know you will be trying to herd cats some tough measures are needed.


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## loosie

Thanks Horsef. The mod team have been trying very hard to be ultra fair & reasonable... 

_*But a huge thanks to the whole HF community here*_ - there has really been very little reason to edit/mod anything on this huge thread, despite the very difficult situation & we all appreciate how... volatile _everyone_ is feeling, but you're all, virtually without exception, pretty much still showing your true colours of remaining respectful(of eachother and HF rules) and polite. You may only be virtual 'friends' & I know exceedingly little about even the ones I 'talk' to frequently, but respect & love you guys. Keep it up!


----------



## Horsef

loosie said:


> ...and can people in the know please tell me if the loss of taste/smell as a symptom is real or not? I've been on again off again with flu-like symptoms - not very runny nose, not really sore, but bit tickly throat & fluey aches, feeling like my glands are up, feeling a fluey kind of nausea occasionally... I enjoyed a curry last night tho, enjoyed an iced chocolate that Darcy just made me tho...
> 
> Please, please, let me be well, so that after another week or so(been super, super careful for last 5 days... careful but husband working in city till then), so I can go stay with my old, sick, all alone mum... my brother or sisters haven't been able to see her in the last week either as they've been... in various risky situations.


I am not a medical professional so proceed with caution. However, I have read just about every single study that’s out and I have found no mention of that symptom at all. That symptom was only mentioned in newspapers with regards to younger patients. It could well be that I am reading “older” research as it takes time to peer review and that symptom was only noticed recently. Also, that symptom was most definitely not captured by doctors in patient files at the beginning of the epidemic so researchers wouldn’t be able to include it.

One thing that most of the studies are finding is that viral traces were found for a long time after symptoms have subsided. None of the studies I read discussed whether those traces were actually infectious to other people. Also, they cannot seem to agree for how long those traces were present. Our local doctors are putting patients into self isolation for two weeks after two consecutive negative tests.

All in all, as far as I could gather, there is nothing official describing that particular symptom and you need to be careful of symptom-free viral shedding after you get well. Clear as mud, I know :/

I am very sorry that you are feeling unwell and that your mum is alone.


----------



## loosie

Horsef said:


> If you have a disciplined population, like Japan - the government can be reasonable. If you know you will be trying to herd cats some tough measures are needed.


& without wanting to get un(HF)ruly political, I think it's reasonable to say the general population aren't the only 'cats' to wrangle here. And I wish we could have annexed to NZ or stolen @MeditativeRider 's PM a long time ago...


----------



## Spanish Rider

I say this as an American, born and raised (and yes, I vote; and yes, I pay taxes):

As @tinyliny has said, this is a NATIONAL emergency, requiring a NATIONAL strategy. I cannot comprehend how there can be 50 different approaches to one same problem. Yes, international travel has been shut down, but if travel among states is still allowed, it would be like Madrid still having flights to London, or between France and Italy, all of which has been shut down here for weeks to slow down the spread.

Solutions need to come from the top. Smart decisions need to come from the top. Leadership needs to come from the top. Correct communication of accurate information needs to come from the top.

In this regard, I am not only talking about the US. We have been let down by the WHO, the UN, the European Council and the CDC, in addition to individual governments around the world dropping the ball (some not even realizing that there was a ball in play). There are no protocols in place, we have no consensus agreements for systematized approaches, there are no organs for direct communication among front-line physicians, and precious time has been lost. 


As an approach for the future, we (the collective human-race 'we') must realize that strong international scientific warning systems, research, communications and protocols as well as basic human-rights healthcare are necessary for economic stability and the national security of individual countries.

That is, unless @Horsef is right, and "...this will be forgotten as well."


----------



## MeditativeRider

loosie said:


> ...and can people in the know please tell me if the loss of taste/smell as a symptom is real or not? I've been on again off again with flu-like symptoms - not very runny nose, not really sore, but bit tickly throat & fluey aches, feeling like my glands are up, feeling a fluey kind of nausea occasionally... I enjoyed a curry last night tho, enjoyed an iced chocolate that Darcy just made me tho...
> .


I have not read up a lot about it (as in only news not anything science study wise yet) but apparently it is enough of a thing to study. I saw this article in our NZ news,

https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/...otago-uni-scientist-joins-world-covid-19-team

But I assume just because you can lose your sense of smell/taste does not mean that you will (you may retain it and still have the virus).

Pretty much its the only NZ online news site I read as the others are not so reliable with their info (e.g., one that shall go unnamed posting an article on all the biking riding adventures you could do on trails, MTB etc, far from home at the same day the government was repeatedly clarifying we have to stay local and away from anything risky).


----------



## Spanish Rider

@loosie , the smell/taste thing is common of the virus, but not all patients have this symptom.


----------



## MeditativeRider

I don't know if my link worked on my previous post about the flight tracking, so here it is again.

https://www.odt.co.nz/star-news/star-national/flight-tracker-shows-contrast-between-nz-us-lockdowns

Hoping you all stay safe.


----------



## loosie

AuG said:


> astounded by the amount of people coming through before the weekend for no good reason other than "holidays". There are 5 icu beds in the entire region. These families are so selfish it is mindblowing. ... The advice is clear, it is the people who are the problem. I'd like to see more in the media of those recovered and those who are doing the right thing.


I am not in the least discounting there are indeed many selfish and 'willfully ignorant' people out there(not that ignorant, tho I try to give benefit of doubt & see the best in people), but as I've said before, what with the abundance of misinformation and rule changes coming thick & fast, from official and non official sources, I do feel branding the majority of these people as selfish, willfully negligent, etc, is a bit unfair. Many too are 'sheeple', who haven't learned critical thinking skills, who haven't learned not to accept things on blind faith, and they have heard and believed wrong information, or they are so confused as to the inconsistencies as to be skeptical about the whole deal.


----------



## Horsef

loosie said:


> I am not in the least discounting there are indeed many selfish and 'willfully ignorant' people out there(not that ignorant, tho I try to give benefit of doubt & see the best in people), but as I've said before, what with the abundance of misinformation and rule changes coming thick & fast, from official and non official sources, I do feel branding the majority of these people as selfish, willfully negligent, etc, is a bit unfair. Many too are 'sheeple', who haven't learned critical thinking skills, who haven't learned not to accept things on blind faith, and they have heard and believed wrong information, or they are so confused as to the inconsistencies as to be skeptical about the whole deal.


Also, migrations in face of epidemics is a very viable and successful survival strategy in almost all forms of life so we are all fighting a very powerful, primeval instinct. Some less successfully than others.


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## egrogan

@loosie, the article I read about loss of smell/taste was here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-symptoms-smell-taste.html

But careful to say it is still a hypothesis supported currently by small scale observational studies/anecdotes.


----------



## gottatrot

egrogan said:


> @loosie, the article I read about loss of smell/taste was here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-symptoms-smell-taste.html
> 
> But careful to say it is still a hypothesis supported currently by small scale observational studies/anecdotes.





> The symptoms, *in the absence of allergies or sinusitis*, should alert doctors to screen patients for the virus and “warrant serious consideration for self isolation and testing of these individuals,” the academy said.


Also note that this symptom is very common with allergies, cold or sinusitis, so is a very non-specific symptom unless you can rule out those.


----------



## loosie

tinyliny said:


> We must have a national strategy. ALL AMERICANS must pull together and bear the brunt of this. All of us, NOW, get it over with so that we can get up and on with it as soon as possible, not drag it out over and over and over again.


Over here, the different States have been basically in charge of their own approach too. And the... piecemeal approach has seemingly been more to do with economics than health of everyone. This is of course also of HUGE importance, but it strikes me, from what I've learned here & from such as Dr Norman Swan & others, that for the sake of the economy too, a national strategy of strict lockdown would have been far & away better, and we could have even been pretty much over it, if we had done so.


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## Spanish Rider

> But careful to say it is still a hypothesis supported currently by small scale observational studies/anecdotes.


As is basically everything at this point.


This is an illustration from @MeditativeRider 's link. 'nuff said.


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## loosie

^^Jeez! I think, in some states of Aust at least, they have blocked entry from across the borders. And EVERYONE entering Aus from elsewhere gets 2 weeks in lockdown, in a patrolled hotel(because the 'cats' couldn't be wrangled reliably on self iso).


----------



## loosie

& BTW to anyone who has amazingly managed to keep following this thread, I've now copied & pasted, from pp.94 to this one, what I felt was important & factual from here to the other thread. And I've found your 'myths' link there @gottatrot. 

So still, any earlier posts people feel should go there, go for it. I've probably read & copied from about 50 pages at a guess, so missed heaps.


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## Spanish Rider

@loosie ,


> 'cats'


?


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

This may have been mentioned and I thought interesting. I'm not saying I put lots of faith in this, simply that to me it was interesting...
Years ago there was a psychic Sylvia Browne who wrote a book "End of Days" in 2008. Sylvia died in 2013. In that book she wrote:
"In around 2020 a severe pneumonia-like illness will spread throughout the globe, attacking the lungs and the bronchial tubes and resisting all known treatments. Almost more baffling than the illness itself will be the fact that it will suddenly vanish as quickly as it arrived, attack again ten years later, and then disappear completely."

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## boots

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> This may have been mentioned and I thought interesting. I'm not saying I put lots of faith in this, simply that to me it was interesting...
> Years ago there was a psychic Sylvia Browne who wrote a book "End of Days" in 2008. Sylvia died in 2013. In that book she wrote:
> "In around 2020 a severe pneumonia-like illness will spread throughout the globe, attacking the lungs and the bronchial tubes and resisting all known treatments. Almost more baffling than the illness itself will be the fact that it will suddenly vanish as quickly as it arrived, attack again ten years later, and then disappear completely."
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


Yeah. Interesting.

I don't seek out psychics and don't put much stock in their predictions. But, this popped up on my news today and if nothing else it's a curiosity. It would be great if it disappeared quicky. 

Now that the virus is identified, researchers will continue to search for ways to defeat it. Subsequent outbreaks may not have to be as bad.


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## Acadianartist

loosie said:


> Yes, like horse riding, where you're going to be at least around 2 metres(rules are 1.5m(5') here - go figure) anyway. Darcy & I are going for a trail ride tomoz as while some people have been making noises about rules saying no horse riding off private property, I have looked & looked & asked those who said so for sources & not found anything that says that myself.
> 
> My father got told off by the police for taking his mirror dingy out, by himself, today, and beaches are closed, someone got told she'd be fined if she even walked home along the beach the way she came, had to go up & walk on the footpath with her daughter. This is despite the official noises saying you can walk & swim on the beach, just not hang out/sunbath there. SOOO many inconsistancies.
> 
> I can only think the seemingly illogical rules such as no dog walking or walking on beaches etc alone is to try to discourage those who are 'flaunting' the rules. Apparently my old town where I used to live(tourist area) was inundated on the weekend by tourists! But not so sure & re those who are not taking it serious, those who are 'selfishly' going out & about, etc, I must say, with all the lies & misinformation we have been fed, with all the seemingly illogical & changes in guidelines (hairdressers are allowed to operate but only 30 min max appts... no scrap that, 40 mins is ok... no scrap that, we'll stick to 30 mins...), I don't blame people for being so skeptical & confused, so I wouldn't call it 'selfish' or 'flaunting' for the most part.


Well, this is where it gets tricky I think. So a person walking their dog or going to the park should be fine. I mean, as long as the person doesn't touch any surfaces, doesn't use public bathrooms, does touch benches or garbage cans, etc. But what if everyone decides to do that at the same time? I'm lucky that I have 13 acres to walk on, so no need to go to public places. But I understand people who feel the need to get out of their apartment or city home and decide to take the kids to the nearest beach. Only, when there are hundreds of other people doing the same thing, there's no way to keep the social distancing rule. I'm really not sure how you get around this. 

On the other hand, people taking their kids to pet stores because the zoo is closed and they want to play with some animals is a little selfish. I have not stepped off my property in 16 days. I don't need to. I understand that some people do - my husband has to work so he also does groceries and has picked up horse feed and bedding for me. I just phone the feed store, put in my order, pay for it with a credit card and they load it in his truck. People do not need to go do groceries as a family. One person should go and get supplies for the week. If we run out of something mid-week, we manage until it's grocery day again. But living in the country, we're used to this and it's not really a huge effort. 

It's always hard to understand people's motivations. Are they going stir crazy? Are parents losing their minds having their kids with them 24/7? I don't have the answer. We certainly don't want to live in a society where you can't walk your dog anymore. But how do you prevent everyone from being out at the same time in more densely populated areas?

On a different note, we lost Internet for several hours last night. That was a bit scary. This is my only link with the outside world. We got it back, but it's notoriously unreliable here. Suddenly, that is a very big problem.


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## Horsef

This is the first time I’ve seen any sort of research regarding standard mortality rate vs. Covid19.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...eason-may-solve-mystery-of-coronavirus-deaths

Basically, Italian Ministry of Health has compared previous years flu seasons to this outbreak and they are still below the number from three years ago. They think that because this year their flu season was mild it left a larger pool of potential victims, especially in the north - that’s why their numbers are much higher than anyone else.

I really wander why nobody is tracking standard mortality rates prominently (that I could find - signal to noise ratio is off the charts). I guess because they don’t know how this thing will end so they don’t want to lull the public into a false sense of security. But it could easily turn into just a bad flu season. I guess we’ll have Sweden as a control group. The research that comes out of this epidemic is going to be really interesting (I am lacking a more appropriate word, sorry).


----------



## loosie

Spanish Rider said:


> @loosie ,
> ?


Someone (horsef?) likened controlling (non obedient) people to wrangling cats, being the reason some guidelines are seemingly going overboard.


----------



## loosie

Wait @Horsef I'm rushing off again now, haven't time to look at your link, but are you saying the situation in Italy is not as bad as it was 3 years ago from the flu??


----------



## Horsef

loosie said:


> Wait @Horsef I'm rushing off again now, haven't time to look at your link, but are you saying the situation in Italy is not as bad as it was 3 years ago from the flu??


If the source is correct, that is what the Italian Ministry of Health is saying, yes.
They still haven't reached the number of deaths from three years ago but they have surpassed the last two years.

Bloomberg is citing a graph from Italian Ministry of Health which I haven't been able to find on the Ministry's site - but mainly because I don't speak Italian. I don't have any reason to think that Bloombergs is making up data but weirder things have happened.

Here is the graph>


----------



## Animalia

While some people are just ignorant about the disease and don't know any better, some are willfully refusing to comply with any restrictions--I know at least 3 people like this--none related to each other. And they ALL have very high risk people in their families--and they just can't be bothered to take any precautions. They think the rest of us are being ridiculous. THAT'S selfish. Even if you don't believe there's a problem based on your own ideology, if you love your friends and family--you respect THEIR ideology and peace of mind and be careful with them if that's what they need/want. 

I have been quarantined at home for 3 weeks already due to my very high risk status. I am very grateful for a good sized house and lots of technology--and the ability to still go ride once per week--away from all people.


----------



## Captain Evil

We just got a notice from the Coast Guard that as US Marine Merchant Licence holders, we might get called upon to work as enforcement agents: but once they take a good look at us I think they will padlock our door instead - me with my gray hair in a sloppy bun and DH just being... DH!


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## egrogan

@*Captain Evil* , :rofl:

Our Vermont governor issued an order yesterday that anyone coming into the state from out of state is required to self-quarantine in their home for two weeks (does not apply to people coming into the state temporarily for "essential services," e.g., a person from New Hampshire crossing the river for a grocery store). Apparently today on the interstates coming into VT, there are state DOT staff manually recording all the out of state license plates that enter the state. Not really sure what they intend to do with it nor how they would actually enforce the required 14-day quarantine. People are getting really nervous about second home owners from metro NYC and Boston arriving here as it gets worse in the larger cities. I read an article a couple of days ago that there was some vigilante justice handed out in a small town in Maine because locals were trying to force a couple of guys with NJ license plates to stay in their house (the whole story was that the roommates from NJ had been living in the community for over a month doing a construction job and the police got everything simmered down). I hope we don't start seeing things getting out of hand. 

When you live in such a small state, the state line is not a very meaningful boundary- it is much faster/closer for me to go to a large grocery store in New Hampshire than it would be to go to the same grocery store chain in Vermont. From a travel perspective, it would be better for me to stay within the 15 mile radius around my house, including NH, than it would be to stay in VT but travel 30-40 miles to a larger town.


----------



## Foxhunter

My cousin's son has it. He is in his late 30s very fit fortunately. 

Started with a slight cough fever and then hit. He feels as if someone has squeezed his lungs so he cannot breathe and he hurts all over, not just an ache but a real hurt. He was really rough Saturday - Monday and it returned yesterday evening. He is staying in his flat along with his room mate. 

Fortunately he sent his daughter to her mother's two weeks ago as he had been working with two people who went down with it. 

He doesn't want to go to hospital as they are inundated (London area) and feels that he will get through it OK. 

Hope he's right.


----------



## boots

I'm sorry to hear that @Foxhunter.

Hope he recovers quickly and completely.


----------



## egrogan

Sending thoughts for a full recovery to your family member @Foxhunter.


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## Acadianartist

Sorry to hear this @Foxhunter. Hopefully he'll be ok. It's got to be a tough call, and a lot of people fear going to the hospital right now. I can't help but wonder what catastrophes we are ignoring as a result. How many tumors are going undetected because no one is going for routine tests, how many people are just staying home in the hopes that they will just self-heal...


----------



## Spanish Rider

@Horsef , I know that here they are using standard mortality rates to estimate COVID19 deaths in rural areas, so that anything above what is considered the 'mean death rate' for the same date in recent years is considered C-19.


Another big problem that we have discovered is that our lack of testing and centralized reporting (by province) is not allowing 'pockets' or 'hotspots' to be identified. On the news, we have seen the mayor from a town close to ours reporting 100 deaths in recent days, which is 10% of deaths in our entire province. Logically, she is asking for state/province intervention to shut the roads down and make sure everyone is quarantining properly, as well as more medical supplies.


Catalonia ambulance crews have now been instructed to not transfer any C-19 patients over the age of 80 to hospital. They are supposed to inform the family that it is better for their loved one to die at home, and they are given sedatives to administer.

And there are now reports of families living with the bodies of loved ones, waiting for the government (?), military (?) to pick them up for 2-3 days.


On a positive note, WHO observers have been very impressed with the ICU set-up in the Madrid convention center. It even has a pressurized O2 system under the floor, installed by local plumbers. Apparently, it's better than anythng that was done in China or Italy.


----------



## carshon

Oh My ! these posts are truly eye opening. I posted before but will post again as it is really becoming an issue here. Chicagoans are coming into our small communities to their vacation cabins. We had our first death locally (about 35 miles away from me) an older farmer who contracted it from who knows where. he never left his small community - they are tracing it to a resort area close to their that had been filling with Chicagoans who were shopping in the smaller towns. It's just sad - living in really small areas we feel immune - we don't go to Chicago most haven't traveled overseas. His death was a wake up call that no one is safe - and staying at home anymore doesn't feel safe either when those that were told to stay in place did not.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

ACinATX said:


> Our city has banned gatherings of more than two or three, indoors OR outdoors. You would think a teacher would respect that.
> 
> Also on my walk I saw someone getting arrested, apparently for DWI. The police put a mask on him before they put him in the car. I thought that was interesting. I guess the police guy would probably put on his own mask once he got in, to be extra safe?


Teachers and coaches can be just as ignorant as anyone else. They also buy into the "young and immortal" thing and want them to "suck it up". Sometimes they need a quick jerk on the chain to bring them back to reality. I'd be making a call to the principal's office. 

Re: the face mask on the DUI (DWS = Driving While Stupid) driver. He was probably threatening to spit on the officer or tried to spit on him. We used to put spit masks on drunks very frequently so they couldn't actually do it.


----------



## Acadianartist

Numbers holding more or less steady in my part of the world. Only 81 confirmed cases in New Brunswick with the vast majority being travel-related, but there are more in Nova Scotia and a LOT more in Québec (over 4000 cases), which shares a border with us. Said border is supposedly closed, but that probably happened too late. It remains to be seen whether we'll see a spike in the next week or so. 

The federal government is suggesting we could be stuck home until July. Equestrian Canada is cancelling all sanctioned events including shows until June 1st. I will have to make a decision about our sanctioned show which was to take place on July 11th (I'm the main organizer for it this year - my first year and first time organizing a show, ever!). We need to submit the paperwork two months before, so I'll wait until early May and make a call then.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Since my last post on 3/28 of 429 cases and 16 deaths, we are now at 719 cases and 30 deaths. As predicted, now that we actually have the capability to test more than a handful of people, we're discovering that more than a handful are positive for the disease and the death toll has nearly doubled in just a few days. My county is now up to 16 cases, no deaths. I find the no deaths to be a little suspicious, I KNOW that the 16 cases has to be way off, but it's a small county and very few supplies and such for testing. 

More and more towns are putting "shelter in place" orders out but they still have no real teeth in them. Here's a link to the shelter in place order and what it means: https://www.stwnewspress.com/covid-...cle_245f9bd0-72b6-11ea-8fc8-63cef71d9e5e.html. 

It's too long to post here, but I thought some might be interested in reading it. OKC, Tulsa and Stillwater put similar measures in place roughly at the same time, aiming for consistency. So far the Governor has not closed air travel, the he's now requiring people coming in from certain places to self quarantine for 14 days. Those states are California, Washington, Louisiana, NY, NJ and CT. Otherwise, we're wide open.


----------



## tinyliny

This experience is so surreal. I read your reports, especially SpanishRider's, and see the TV, and hear about NYC . . But here it's so calm it's just, well, psuedo-normal.


We are staying at home except to take daily walks and weekly trips to grocery store. neighbors are out walking dogs as if it were a holiday, though everyone keeps a very respectful distance. Super market is mostly well stocked, though barely any paper products, and still no large bags of flour. Workers there are STILL not wearing masks, and stand near each other, chatting. It's just like the wierdest dream ever.

@Foxhunter if your cousin's son's breathing gets at all worse, do not wait to find a source of oxygen. When young people start to go downhill, they go downhill FAST! I'm sorry to say that, as I'm sure the parents are very scared. But, the development of ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome) can come on in a matter of 3 or 4 hours.


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## ACinATX

@tinyliny it seems like whatever measures they took in Seattle have worked pretty well. My neighbors in Kitsap County told me they had had very few cases. I checked the county data just now and it said about 70 cases as of yesterday afternoon. As close as it is to Seattle, and with as many people who commute (on closed ferries), that's really kind of impressive.

Speaking of which, I see they've reduced the number of ferries as well. I wonder if they are telling all drive-on passengers to stay in their cars.


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## Foxhunter

tinyliny said:


> @Foxhunter if your cousin's son's breathing gets at all worse, do not wait to find a source of oxygen. When young people start to go downhill, they go downhill FAST! I'm sorry to say that, as I'm sure the parents are very scared. But, the development of ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome) can come on in a matter of 3 or 4 hours.


He has a flat mate quarantined with him who is keeping an alert watch. His Dr has advised him on what to watch for. 

Thanks!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I had to run to the hardware store, needed to repair some broken water pipe. They have installed plexiglass shields between the clerks and customers which is good for hopefully stopping disease transmission but makes it totally impossible to hear what they're say to you (if you're at all hard of hearing). It damped things down enough that even with the hearing aids turned way up, I still couldn't understand her and she wouldn't look directly at me so I could read her lips. Made it very frustrating. She was not wearing gloves and reaching under the shield to handle money, so needless to say, I used a LOT of hand sanitizer the minute I was done with that transaction and wiped everything I bought down with a sanitizing wipe.


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## SilverMaple

Way too many people here either aren't taking it seriously, consider their personal freedoms to go out as more important than the safety of others, or think the whole thing is made up by the media and staying home is ridiculous because 'more people die of the flu'. My mother-in-law is one of these... she told us to 'get a grip and stop being slaves to the lamestream media' and then proceeded to go shopping for a new bedspread and sheets... We don't have an official 'stay at home' order, just a recommendation for social distancing and no groups larger than ten, so people are still having barbecues, the neighborhood kids go from house to house in packs, there's currently a ballgame going on in the empty lot behind our house, the house down two is having a get-together with beer and pizza, and people are viewing this as one big social party. People get to-go orders from restaurants and then sit in the park and have a picnic with friends, or stand around outside the restaurant waiting for their order, chatting and talking and hugging friends. Those of us trying to stay in are being ridiculed as 'unAmerican' and 'sheep.' They closed the playground and ballfields at the park, and people are livid, because 'if you're high risk, stay home. But stop telling the rest of us how to live our lives.' 

I'm so upset. People like my parents can DIE because others don't care enough to even try to do the right thing.


----------



## SilverMaple

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I had to run to the hardware store, needed to repair some broken water pipe. They have installed plexiglass shields between the clerks and customers which is good for hopefully stopping disease transmission but makes it totally impossible to hear what they're say to you (if you're at all hard of hearing). It damped things down enough that even with the hearing aids turned way up, I still couldn't understand her and she wouldn't look directly at me so I could read her lips. Made it very frustrating. She was not wearing gloves and reaching under the shield to handle money, so needless to say, I used a LOT of hand sanitizer the minute I was done with that transaction and wiped everything I bought down with a sanitizing wipe.


Our hardware store has those, but people lean in between the shields to visit.... *head desk* And the place is packed because everyone is getting home renovation projects done.


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## tinyliny

SilverMaple said:


> Way too many people here either aren't taking it seriously, consider their personal freedoms to go out as more important than the safety of others, or think the whole thing is made up by the media and staying home is ridiculous because 'more people die of the flu'. My mother-in-law is one of these... she told us to 'get a grip and stop being slaves to the lamestream media' and then proceeded to go shopping for a new bedspread and sheets... We don't have an official 'stay at home' order, just a recommendation for social distancing and no groups larger than ten, so people are still having barbecues, the neighborhood kids go from house to house in packs, there's currently a ballgame going on in the empty lot behind our house, the house down two is having a get-together with beer and pizza, and people are viewing this as one big social party. People get to-go orders from restaurants and then sit in the park and have a picnic with friends, or stand around outside the restaurant waiting for their order, chatting and talking and hugging friends. Those of us trying to stay in are being ridiculed as 'unAmerican' and 'sheep.' They closed the playground and ballfields at the park, and people are livid, because 'if you're high risk, stay home. But stop telling the rest of us how to live our lives.'
> 
> I'm so upset. People like my parents can DIE because others don't care enough to even try to do the right thing.





That is just wierd!!! Here, people don't stand near each other, they literallly sort of move away when passing, like two electrons repelling each other.


Children are out playing, but only with their parents and siblings.


Shopping is nil. Other than groceries, where it is very quiet and sober. We still greet each other, but there is not a lighthearted feel to it.


I hear the death projections, but what I wonder is, out of how many deaths that happen and are predicted, are these death soley from Covid19? or are they mixing in ALL statistically expected (normal) deaths? On any given day, something between 7 and 10 THOUSAND Americans die each day. This is normal. So, I assume that these statistics are in addition to expected deaths?


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## loosie

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> She was not wearing gloves and reaching under the shield to handle money, so needless to say, I used a LOT of hand sanitizer the minute I was done with that transaction and wiped everything I bought down with a sanitizing wipe.


Some silly rules in shops here too - no shields up, but some shops have marks on the floor for where to stand, some have tables or other barriers in front of the checkout desk to enforce. Many don't have anything. And in Woolworths(supermarket chain) they have started giving free plastic bags again(were restricted for environment), and people have to pack the goods themselves after checkout... that is, after the checkout chick has touched every item and handled money...


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## Acadianartist

That's horrible @SilverMaple. I can't even imagine what is going through those people's minds. But this is probably why it can get so out of control so quickly.


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## SilverMaple

I'm not allowed to say what's going through those people's minds on here because it's 'political', but you can probably guess... let's just say that whether people are staying home or not is pretty much divided right down one's political party preference.


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## SilverMaple

tinyliny said:


> That is just wierd!!! Here, people don't stand near each other, they literallly sort of move away when passing, like two electrons repelling each other.
> 
> 
> Children are out playing, but only with their parents and siblings.
> 
> 
> Shopping is nil. Other than groceries, where it is very quiet and sober. We still greet each other, but there is not a lighthearted feel to it.
> 
> 
> I hear the death projections, but what I wonder is, out of how many deaths that happen and are predicted, are these death soley from Covid19? or are they mixing in ALL statistically expected (normal) deaths? On any given day, something between 7 and 10 THOUSAND Americans die each day. This is normal. So, I assume that these statistics are in addition to expected deaths?


We have a ton of cases in our state, but only a few confirmed in our area because of lack of testing, so people can still pretend it's not going to affect them, or that only the high-risk or elderly should be staying home, and go about their business.


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## kiwigirl

In New Zealand: 708 cases as of yesterday 1st of April. 

Death toll 1.



Hours of entertainment watching some peoples "safety and prevention methods" - incalculable.


Honorable mention goes to the Maori girl I drove past the other day on my way to the grocery store. She was standing outside her house wearing a surgical mask, oven mits taped to her hands and her socks taped to the outside of her pants - I nearly wet my pants laughing. 



First place has to go to the 5 foot three woman wearing a hazmat suit obviously designed for a 6 foot man, the face shield sat so low on her face that she had to tilt her head back as far as it could go to see anything - made me laugh so hard snot came out of my nose.


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## ACinATX

SilverMaple said:


> I'm not allowed to say what's going through those people's minds on here because it's 'political', but you can probably guess... let's just say that whether people are staying home or not is pretty much divided right down one's political party preference.


As in this article:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/03/social-distancing-culture/609019/
Really all you need to know is in the headline "The Social-Distancing Culture War Has Begun" and the name of the publication (The Atlantic). I mean, you don't even have to read the article to know what it's going to say. I'm sure a lot of us have been thinking the same thing.


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## farmpony84

I got my permission slip to drive to work and back.....


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## Horsef

Serbia: we are also seeing some politically motivated disobedience except it’s young people against the people in power who were voted for mainly by the elderly. So, I guess at least that makes mathematical sense if nothing else.

Also, we have a really weird situation with our church. The communion is performed using one (!) communal spoon in Serbian Orthodox Church. The authorities are contorting themselves into pretzels to avoid banning this but are warning people that it is a risk. They are using very soft language so as to not offend sensibilities of the religious voters. I would hazard a guess that sharing a single spoon between a hundred people is a much bigger risk than young people walking in groups of two or three or people walking their dogs in the evening. If it wasn’t tragic, it would be hilarious.

Our numbers are still not growing exponentially. We are currently around 1000 cases. It is growing by about 10 to 15% daily, but that is to be expected because they are testing all known contacts of the positive cases. We are seeing a number of asymptomatic patients and they are slowly filing into containment halls.

We are almost certain to be put into 24 hour full lockdown for two weeks just before Easter. That appears to mean not even going to the shops and no dog walking at all. We don’t know yet exactly what it will look like but this is the scenario the president described on national TV. Maybe they are just trying to scare us into compliance but it’s not really working on most young people, especially in the capital, Belgrade.


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## Acadianartist

tinyliny said:


> That is just wierd!!! Here, people don't stand near each other, they literallly sort of move away when passing, like two electrons repelling each other.
> 
> 
> Children are out playing, but only with their parents and siblings.
> 
> 
> Shopping is nil. Other than groceries, where it is very quiet and sober. We still greet each other, but there is not a lighthearted feel to it.
> 
> 
> I hear the death projections, but what I wonder is, out of how many deaths that happen and are predicted, are these death soley from Covid19? or are they mixing in ALL statistically expected (normal) deaths? On any given day, something between 7 and 10 THOUSAND Americans die each day. This is normal. So, I assume that these statistics are in addition to expected deaths?



Here's a visual that show various causes of death @*tinyliny* :
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...of-u-s-coronavirus-deaths-in-one-graphic.html





Covid-19 has killed more people than strokes, lung disease, and accidents. It is surpassed only by cancer and heart disease. Source: CDC


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## loosie

@Spanish Rider is it true, that they haven't even shut down Madrid? Considering the numbers you've been telling us about?

Just saw this on FB... /OccupyDemocrats/videos/143885067052311/


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## MeditativeRider

kiwigirl said:


> Hours of entertainment watching some peoples "safety and prevention methods" - incalculable.
> 
> 
> Honorable mention goes to the Maori girl I drove past the other day on my way to the grocery store. She was standing outside her house wearing a surgical mask, oven mits taped to her hands and her socks taped to the outside of her pants - I nearly wet my pants laughing.
> 
> 
> 
> First place has to go to the 5 foot three woman wearing a hazmat suit obviously designed for a 6 foot man, the face shield sat so low on her face that she had to tilt her head back as far as it could go to see anything - made me laugh so hard snot came out of my nose.


I live in NZ too, and I cannot like your post. I do not think it is kind to find entertainment in other peoples fear (or inability to access appropriately sized PPE; if that is what they want to wear). Particularly those of a group that have very poor outcomes in our medical system because of the history of inequalities that we (NZ European) have dumped on them in about every aspect of society. They have many more under lying health issues because of lack of access and proper care, and probably even more reason to be fearful.

Maybe you should think more about one of the main messages we have got as a society, be kind.


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## Horsef

Acadianartist said:


> Here's a visual that show various causes of death @*tinyliny* :
> https://nymag.com/intelligencer/202...of-u-s-coronavirus-deaths-in-one-graphic.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Covid-19 has killed more people than strokes, lung disease, and accidents. It is surpassed only by cancer and heart disease. Source: CDC


My main question is how many of those cardio and stroke deaths which would have happened anyway were attributed to Covid19. I am guessing that Germany is assigning a lot of theirs to other causes. I am not accusing them of fiddling with the numbers. I am trying to figure out what the actual process is like in various countries. I guess we will only get that answer after many years of research - and not on a horse forum


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## kiwigirl

@MeditativeRider. Yeah but sometimes you've got to laugh because a sense of humour is always what will get anyone through times of trouble, I find just as much fun laughing at myself, so meh, take life too seriously and you may as well give up and roll over anyway. Billy T James never seemed to mind poking fun at the English "air hair lair" lol. Feeling sorry for people is not being kind to them, that's called being patronizing.


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## Acadianartist

Horsef said:


> My main question is how many of those cardio and stroke deaths which would have happened anyway were attributed to Covid19. I am guessing that Germany is assigning a lot of theirs to other causes. I am not accusing them of fiddling with the numbers. I am trying to figure out what the actual process is like in various countries. I guess we will only get that answer after many years of research - and not on a horse forum


No doubt that the answer will not come from me, but think of the corollary - how many deaths by heart attack or cancer happened because of Covid-19? I don't mean people dying because they caught it, but rather, people dying because all the resources and treatments were taken to treat those who have Covid-19. In NYC it was almost impossible to get through to 911 for a time. 

Not trying to get too political, but I'm quite sure that if the current administration could minimize those numbers, they would.


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## Foxhunter

My neighbour, Cass, is a nurse. Normally she is doing pre operation testing but has been moved onto the isolation ward. Two patients died lyesterday and another not expected to last the night. 

All,were very old and had many health issues. 

Now, the thing is that the hospital staff have not got the protective equipment needed to keep them safe. She was expected to go into thenward with just a paper mask which is no protection at all. 

The health people are working 14 hour days with little to no breaks, and doing so for many days on the trot. 

People are asked to clap for these people at 8 p.m. tonight. All very well but most of them will not hear it and recognise the general population is in awe of the work they are doing. 

Talk of awarding them a medal, all well and good and I agree but, what would boost their moral is if they were not taxed on the overtime they are doing. They will loose about three quarters of overtime money so basically they are working extra hours for little reward.


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## SilverMaple

The wealthiest countries in the world are having to send doctors and nurses in to care for overflowing hospitals of COVID patients without proper protective equipment. What a complete travesty.


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## Acadianartist

Foxhunter said:


> My neighbour, Cass, is a nurse. Normally she is doing pre operation testing but has been moved onto the isolation ward. Two patients died lyesterday and another not expected to last the night.
> 
> All,were very old and had many health issues.
> 
> Now, the thing is that the hospital staff have not got the protective equipment needed to keep them safe. She was expected to go into thenward with just a paper mask which is no protection at all.
> 
> The health people are working 14 hour days with little to no breaks, and doing so for many days on the trot.
> 
> People are asked to clap for these people at 8 p.m. tonight. All very well but most of them will not hear it and recognise the general population is in awe of the work they are doing.
> 
> Talk of awarding them a medal, all well and good and I agree but, what would boost their moral is if they were not taxed on the overtime they are doing. They will loose about three quarters of overtime money so basically they are working extra hours for little reward.


If I were a health care worker, I'd be irked more than anything at these efforts to applaud them as they go into battle without proper equipment. It's a joke. Like being applauded for being cannon fodder, sent in to battle without a gun. I think what they are being asked to do is completely unacceptable. And then to see people ignoring social distancing on top of that... well, I have a friend who is an ER nurse, and it is making her steaming mad. She has three children of her own, and every time she goes to work and come home, despite her best efforts to shower, change, etc., she knows she could be giving it to them. I don't know how you can get up in the morning and do that day after day. Luckily, we still have all the necessary medical equipment. She has said that she will refuse to go in if not given proper protection. I would support that choice.


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## Wild Heart

My dad, a 62 year old nurse with underlying health conditions, was just transferred from pediatrics (a floor he's been working on for years) to the Covid 19 unit. Right now, our county has around 50 confirmed cases but being just a few hours from NYC it's expected to rise quite quickly.

They are fitting him for a mask tonight and that will be his "assigned" mask while he works on the floor, he will not be getting another until who knows when.


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## gottatrot

Can only speak for my area but we do have some dramatic types that are letting everyone on FB know how they are suffering as nurses.

In my area, everyone has appropriate ppe and yet rules have had to be made because people want to wear homemade instead of what is supplied by medical companies. I think the rules are generous, you can wear your own in the halls but need medical grade in patient rooms. Also no obscene slogans written on your bandanna.

First, the hours we are working are what we always do. We always work 12-14 hrs with few breaks. Also, lots of nurses love overtime and beg for it. Those working extra days (up to 7 per week) are asking for them and stoked to be getting all the hours. Then on FB they complain. 

Most are getting around $1,000 per day they pick up. There are jokes like "I am doing grand today," meaning overtime.

I am saying this as someone who was wearing a respirator in a covid room yesterday. It is my job. If people are nervous about bringing diseases to their kids, why not worry about the MRSA and C-dif we are around daily, usually finding out after we have been touching the patient already? Many of us have been in meningitis rooms which is very deadly to kids.

A paper mask has always worked for droplet isolation. I am not sure why it would not work now. Everything I have read says human lungs cannot aerosolize covid. We wear respirators for airborne isolation in ventilator rooms to be safe.

At our hospital, anyone high risk can get a note to not enter covid rooms. I am certain in our litigious country anyone could insist on this. Those who don't have issues but are still nervous simply have developed a cough or back injury and gone on extended leave. 

If a hospital is not accomodating, everyone is hiring right now. Many people are not working and wondering how to pay the rent. Nurses have it pretty good right now.


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## trailhorserider

gottatrot said:


> ................Everything I have read says human lungs cannot aerosolize covid.



Thoughts on this are starting to change:


https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/health/aerosol-coronavirus-spread-white-house-letter/index.html


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Since my last post on 3/28 of 429 cases and 16 deaths, we are now at 719 cases and 30 deaths.


That was from 04/01/2020. Today is 04/02/2020 and we're up to 879 cases and 34 dead. Oklahoma is now being predicted to be the next "hot spot". And we've still got nothing with any teeth in it restricting movements or travel. It's going to be a very bumpy ride. 

Integris Health Care is the largest provider in the state and they've expanded their ER with tents and semi-permanent structures outside the ER entrance, trying to keep Covid patients outside the hospital as much as possible. My husband is a provider for Integris in another city and they are cross credentialing their providers to work in any area, Urgent Care, ER, In patient, in any facility in the chain. 

They're also expanding video and Tele visits so that in person visits can be cut down for routine type visits. 

We've had a nurse attacked on her way to work, they think it was provoked by fear of Covid and just overall tension due to the virus pandemic. They're advising medical personnel not to wear their scrubs outside of the hospital so that people don't know they're medical personnel. I remember having to leave my uniform shirts in my locker at work and only wearing a Tshirt so people wouldn't know I worked for the sheriff's department. I never thought I'd see the day when hospital folks would need to do something like that.

https://integrisok.com/resources/news/2020/er-expansion-at-integris-baptist-medical-center


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## SilverMaple

Pretty sure everyone I know who works in healthcare or virology knew months ago that this was not just spread through touch and droplets, and that the 'you don't need to wear a mask' edict was a lie meant to preserve healthcare supplies... the sheer efficiency with which it spreads points to aerosolized spread. You don't infect 65 people out of 70 at one short gathering through touch and droplets. It spreads through breathing and talking. If the CDC is considering walking back their recommendation that masks are not necessary in this age of a mask shortage, and recommending even a bandanna or scarf, it's serious. A bandanna or scarf is nearly worthless, but they're trying to prevent panic. There simply are not enough masks for healthcare workers, much less the general population. Asian countries where masks are ubiquitous are getting a handle on it much faster than western countries where mask wearing is seen as a 'weakness' or sign of illness.


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## carshon

Not sure if this is the right place but my husband had a strange encounter with a Lawyer he works with from Chicago. We mow this mans mansion and 40 acre lawn (not joking - it's 40 acres with 2 ponds) So the guy texts my husband and says I need you to come over and start my lawnmower. This guy may be a lawyer but mechanical he is not. SO hubby goes there to help and asks the man to step back while he works on mower. Lawyer refuses and says you people from this area are just stupid. We are all going to get COVID-19 so you should just accept that. Husband starts mower and leaves - but not before Chicago lawyer proceeds to tell hubby that a couple of his kids and a lot of his grandkids are headed over our way because they are tired of being cooped up.

This my friends is how the virus spreads. This mentality - our larges town is 13,000 people even if 10 people get sick enough to need ventilators that hospital will be stretched past capacity. 

These are scary times we are living in


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## loosie

Any comments on the fact that italy's death rate is not as high as it was for flu 3 years ago? And I've heard people say similar for the US too. Is it that these countries just have horrendously bad flu rates compared to elsewhere for some reason? Is it due to horrendous or unaffordable healthcare? 

And if this thing is killing generally only those who have other serious health probs, how DO we weigh up how bad it actually is? 

Hearing those say it's not that bad, not worth wrecking the economy for... I do believe the 'its not that bad' mob are deluded, or perhaps lucky to be in a little effected area & ignorant of what's happening outside their backyard. 

The 'wrecking of economies' is another huge issue(tho my thoughts are, we were on the brink anyway) that if the disease truly weren't that bad, no government would have allowed all this shutting down etc - what possible motive could there be otherwise??

...And then, a seperate(?) issue, that's being largely 'swept under' by the current woes, is the state of the environment, climate change and shifty dealings around fossil fuel industry, deforestation and big corporations.... Going on under our noses while we're preoccupied with the disease & so restricted. Things happening on that note seem to be deliberate & suddenly ramped up on many fronts...


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## SilverMaple

The US has a dire lack of affordable healthcare. Most people who get the flu don't even bother going in to the doctor until they are in dire straits, in which case death is far more likely. Even with severe flu symptoms, you're often told it's a week wait for an appointment, or that your only option is the ER, which many avoid due to lack of ability to pay. If you aren't insured, you need at least $200 to even walk into most ERs. People who live in rural areas or who lack transportation struggle even more. The very high rates of obesity, diabetes, and other chronic health conditions plays a role, as does abject poverty. 

Part of the whole problem is how deaths are recorded. If you die of pneumonia, is it attributed to the flu or covid or just recorded as pneumonia? If you die of sepsis or heart failure due to covid, is that a covid death or listed as one of the others? The US is reporting a significant number of deaths to people who do NOT have underlying health problems... death rates are likely far higher than reported as people who weren't able to be tested are not reported covid deaths but instead listed as 'pneumonia', 'heart failure', 'sepsis', multiorgan failure' etc. We've tested only a fraction of our sick, even in hospitals, and if those patients die, they're going to be listed as another cause of death rather than covid, especially in areas that are not current hot spots of infection. A friend working in a hospital about an hour from here says they have three suspected covid deaths, but no testing, and one person who died who was tested and still waiting on results. So that's three covid deaths that are not even on the 'tested positive' list, whose deaths will be listed as something else-- pneumonia, most likely, and we're an area that has not been hit hard yet.


----------



## ACinATX

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> We've had a nurse attacked on her way to work, they think it was provoked by fear of Covid and just overall tension due to the virus pandemic. They're advising medical personnel not to wear their scrubs outside of the hospital so that people don't know they're medical personnel.


That is absolutely insane. It's like we're being transported back to the middle ages. 

I am sure you guys all saw the article about the train conductor who deliberately derailed near one of the hospital ships (I think in LA?) because he thought it was some sort of government plot, and he wanted to bring attention to that? I mean, it's one thing to be crazy in your own mental space, but to actual commit violent acts because you think a nurse is your enemy, or the government is [I don't know what that guy thought the government was doing, but obviously something bad]? 

My take on this whole situation is that it is bringing out people's deeper selves. Those who are self-sacrificing are self sacrificing more. Politicians who want to be dictators are getting draconian laws passed. People who are anti-government conspiracists are, I guess, going to get nuttier and more violent.

On another note, it seems that experts would ideally like everyone to start wearing masks now in public, because they are not 100% sure how it spreads (e.g. could it be spread just by breath?) and how long people are contagious BEFORE they even get symptoms. But they can't tell people to go buy masks because some people (e.g. doctors and nurses) need them and can't get them. They are recommending even to wear a bandana or something. I have been taking precautions against *getting* the virus, but I guess I will figure out some way to cover my mouth in public to prevent *spreading* it. I actually have a reusable mask that I got for my allergies; I guess I can use that.


----------



## MeditativeRider

kiwigirl said:


> [MENTION=276811]Yeah but sometimes you've got to laugh because a sense of humour is always what will get anyone through times of trouble, I find just as much fun laughing at myself, so meh, take life too seriously and you may as well give up and roll over anyway. Billy T James never seemed to mind poking fun at the English "air hair lair" lol. Feeling sorry for people is not being kind to them, that's called being patronizing.


There is a big difference between finding joined humor in a difficult situation we all share (e.g., laughing about all these crazy precautions we all have to take) and posting something deliberately mocking that singles out individuals.

Being kind is not feeling sorry for others. Being kind is having empathy. Empathy that perhaps someone is scared for themselves or a family member. Empathy that people might not fully understand the situation. And that is not patronizing.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

ACinATX said:


> I actually have a reusable mask that I got for my allergies; I guess I can use that.


At this point, I think we're at "Anything beats nothing.". I don't have a problem using a bandanna or if I have a mask or 2 out in the barn (I use them when clipping or currying and shedding out after winter since I have asthma), I can use one when I have to go to town.


----------



## MeditativeRider

Has anyone read The Maze Runner series? I just read them over January so it is all rather freakily a similar situation soon after I read that book. The virus is very different and it has all sci-fi type stuff in. But there are many similar things that I just find it really interesting that the author came up with all that. They must have done a lot of research into virus spread and how governments and communities would respond to it.


----------



## gottatrot

trailhorserider said:


> Thoughts on this are starting to change:
> 
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/health/aerosol-coronavirus-spread-white-house-letter/index.html


Interesting, but Fineberg in the article uses words like it is "conceivable" rather than supported. The fact that virus is found outside a six foot range is usual but points more to spread from gloves and movement around the room. For example they often find staph on various surfaces away from patients, but it is not spread through the air.

The person bringing this up says he will wear a paper mask and may recommend the public does so. Those are ineffective for airborne transmission, so if it were truly airborne the recommendation should be to wear N95 masks.


----------



## tinyliny

loosie said:


> Any comments on the fact that italy's death rate is not as high as it was for flu 3 years ago? And I've heard people say similar for the US too. Is it that these countries just have horrendously bad flu rates compared to elsewhere for some reason? Is it due to horrendous or unaffordable healthcare?
> I doubt that accurate death rates can be figured until we know the demoninator; how many people are actually infected, since many have zero symptoms, but later test positive. Until universal testing is done, the accurate figure cannot be known.
> And if this thing is killing generally only those who have other serious health probs, how DO we weigh up how bad it actually is?
> 
> Hearing those say it's not that bad, not worth wrecking the economy for... I do believe the 'its not that bad' mob are deluded, or perhaps lucky to be in a little effected area & ignorant of what's happening outside their backyard.
> 
> The 'wrecking of economies' is another huge issue(tho my thoughts are, we were on the brink anyway) that if the disease truly weren't that bad, no government would have allowed all this shutting down etc - what possible motive could there be otherwise??
> 
> ...And then, a seperate(?) issue, that's being largely 'swept under' by the current woes, is the state of the environment, climate change and shifty dealings around fossil fuel industry, deforestation and big corporations....* Going on under our noses while we're preoccupied with the disease & so restricted. Things happening on that note seem to be deliberate & suddenly ramped up on many fronts...*



that sounds a bit like you are saying there is some kind of conspiracy. Do you really believe that? Because there are some truly wacko conspiracies going around in the US, and I assume elsewhere in the world, and they have the potential to cuase terrible trouble if they really catch on.


----------



## tinyliny

If you look at transmission rates in Japan and Korea, countries where EVERYONE wears a mask outside now, they have a much lower rate. These are mostly just cheap paper masks. They must do something, dont' you think? I mean, at least it keeps you from touching your own mouth and nose, and keeps IN any large droplets that might fly out as you speak, or laugh, or have a sudden, short cough burst.


----------



## gottatrot

I will also mention it is extremely easy to spread diseases via droplet transmission. If you were at a party with 50 people, all it would take is for the person filling the punch glasses to have the virus and a runny nose that she has wiped on her hand. If she touches the glasses everyone is using, most of those people will at some point use the dominant hand they held the glass with to rub their nose or eyes, or fix their makeup.

Most people stand well within range of small particles of spit that fly out into other peoples' eyes when they talk or laugh loudly. People shake hands, so even if the person filling the punch was not sick, that person she shook hands with might have put the virus on her hand that touched all the glasses.


----------



## SwissMiss

gottatrot said:


> I will also mention it is extremely easy to spread diseases via droplet transmission. If you were at a party with 50 people, all it would take is for the person filling the punch glasses to have the virus and a runny nose that she has wiped on her hand. If she touches the glasses everyone is using, most of those people will at some point use the dominant hand they held the glass with to rub their nose or eyes, or fix their makeup.


Ok, I am outing myself here as a "Mythbusters" fan, but this episode/experiment is a great visual!
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...91CE9F09708E6F8CAFAD91C&view=detail&FORM=VIRE


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

loosie said:


> Any comments on the fact that italy's death rate is not as high as it was for flu 3 years ago? And I've heard people say similar for the US too. Is it that these countries just have horrendously bad flu rates compared to elsewhere for some reason? Is it due to horrendous or unaffordable healthcare?
> 
> And if this thing is killing generally only those who have other serious health probs, how DO we weigh up how bad it actually is?
> 
> Hearing those say it's not that bad, not worth wrecking the economy for... I do believe the 'its not that bad' mob are deluded, or perhaps lucky to be in a little effected area & ignorant of what's happening outside their backyard.
> 
> The 'wrecking of economies' is another huge issue(tho my thoughts are, we were on the brink anyway) that if the disease truly weren't that bad, no government would have allowed all this shutting down etc - what possible motive could there be otherwise??
> 
> ...And then, a seperate(?) issue, that's being largely 'swept under' by the current woes, is the state of the environment, climate change and shifty dealings around fossil fuel industry, deforestation and big corporations.... Going on under our noses while we're preoccupied with the disease & so restricted. Things happening on that note seem to be deliberate & suddenly ramped up on many fronts...


1. Any comments on the fact that italy's death rate is not as high as it was for flu 3 years ago? And I've heard people say similar for the US too. Is it that these countries just have horrendously bad flu rates compared to elsewhere for some reason? Is it due to horrendous or unaffordable healthcare? 

I think a lot of this death rate thing has to do with the fact that tests are not readily available for Covid19, and the results are still taking several days/weeks to get, and we have easily available flu tests that will give us results in 15 mins. I think it's skewing death rates because they are reporting the deaths at caused by OTHER than Covid19, ie heart attack, heart failure, pneumonia, lung failure, liver failure, on and on. 

2. And if this thing is killing generally only those who have other serious health probs, how DO we weigh up how bad it actually is? 

Simply put, you can't. If we ever get caught up with testing capability and results and can track the deaths, then I think we'll see a death rate spike that will shock everyone. 

3. The 'wrecking of economies' is another huge issue(tho my thoughts are, we were on the brink anyway) that if the disease truly weren't that bad, no government would have allowed all this shutting down etc - what possible motive could there be otherwise??

I'm going to pass on this one, it's so far above my paygrade I can't even hazard a guess. My FEELING on this is, we should have shut the barn door sooner and tighter and sucked up the results. Now, I feel like we've shut the barn door behind the horse, he's already halfway out of the county and on his way to TX. It's going to take a lot longer than it maybe would/should. 

4. And then, a seperate(?) issue, that's being largely 'swept under' by the current woes, is the state of the environment, climate change and shifty dealings around fossil fuel industry, deforestation and big corporations.... Going on under our noses while we're preoccupied with the disease & so restricted. Things happening on that note seem to be deliberate & suddenly ramped up on many fronts...

This is another, "hard pass" because I don't feel qualified to offer an answer. I know that I have some suspicions and again..feelings.. about it, but nothing concrete.


----------



## trailhorserider

Some folks have asked how you determine which deaths are from COVID19 vs. other causes. And I've been wracking my brain trying to remember what and where I read this yesterday, but whatever I was reading said that they are using statistics from this time last year. So if X number of people died in the month of March last year, and we had Y amount die this year, from all causes I suppose, then when you subtract the two you get a pretty good estimate of how many deaths are attributed to the COVID19 virus. 

I hope I got that right, but that's what I remember. I wish I could remember where I read it so I could post a link. And I might have gotten parts of that wrong.......


----------



## Horsef

Serbia: 

NUMBERS 

We are still doing ok. Around 1100 positive with a growth rate of 10 to 15%. The growth rate percentage itself is dropping even if the absolute numbers are creeping up so I guess that means that R is dropping. At the same time testing is increasing so overall it’s not bad at all. However, we had 300.000 come back into the country from Italy, Austria and Germany about 10 days ago so the doctors think we’re about to start seeing those numbers come through. The doctors think that we could be out of the woods in two weeks time because all those people who came in should have been in self-isolation and if compliance was at 90%, there shouldn’t have been too much spread.

LOCKDOWN 

The authorities have put in a full lockdown from Saturday 13:00 to Monday 05:00 since our biggest issue is people going for a walk en masse over the weekend. Our parks were chock full of young people and families on Saturday and Sunday. I should mention that our workplaces have not been shut down, except for high risk places like gyms, restaurants and hairdressers. A lot of people are working from home as well. That’s why the weekend is so critical. I think they will put another four day lockdown in over the Easter weekend. 

HOSPITALS 

Our hospitals are running a lot under capacity as we only have around 80 people on respirators and I think another 550 or so in hospitals, without respirators. We also have around 5000 beds in temporary hospitals which are currently almost empty and are used for people who are asymptomatic as quarantine at the moment. They are busy making more and they said they will not stop until the epidemic is fully over - just in case.

They have dedicated Covid19 hospitals and general hospitals which is what Chinese did as well. Also, we have these primary care clinics in each municipality which have always been first point of contact (unless it’s an emergency). So what they’ve done is to split those offices into Covid19 and non-Covid19 centers. If a patient is ambulatory and has any of the symptoms, they are supposed to just walk into a Covid19 clinic. If not, they go to the other clinics (not that many people are going). This principle has worked well because there was only one case of a Covid19 patient ending up in a non-Covid19 hospital - person who didn’t have any symptoms had a heart attack. Regardless of symptoms, they routinely use full PPE for all operations and nobody got infected. The patient is doing well so far but it’s early days. They also have dedicated birthing rooms for women who are positive and there were a few births without complications.

They are also not mixing staff between two types of hospitals. Staff in Covid19 facilities work on a schedule: one week on, two weeks in self-isolation regardless of symptoms. All staff have more than enough PPE - they are stacking boxes in hallways and offices. I guess it will all get used up in the coming weeks. This is mainly the help we got/ bought from China.

It appears that the Chinese experts have drilled the importance of protecting medical staff and our government is taking it seriously. Especially seeing that Chinese could bring healthy staff from unaffected parts of the country but we ran out of country rather quickly. We did have some medical personal who tested positive but they were caught very early and there were no hospital transmissions. PPE protects patients as well - it works both ways. If I understood correctly, a lot of the doctors who tested positive got it on their skiing trips in Austria but that’s debatable.

I don’t want to offend anyone. But. This is a rather poor country in the Balkans. All of you guys living in rich, powerful countries need to be asking some really difficult questions after all of this is over. This thing has the potential to run away from us still, but at least we flattened it a bit and gave ourselves time to scramble for resources. Even if it turns out it was just a bad flu season - what happens if the next one is not? The fact that my little country seems to be on the way to beating it doesn’t mean we aren’t going to suffer greatly because of the recession spilling over from the big guys. It’s a very small world.


----------



## walkinthewalk

As of this afternoon, Thursday April 2, 2020:

Tennessee’s Governor Bill Lee is issuing a stay-at-home *order* requiring Tennesseans to avoid any travel except to carry out essential activities.

To date, Tennessee has more than 3000 confirmed cases of Coronavirus.
32 deaths.
220 recovered.
.


----------



## aubie

felt a little pride today. Auburn design adapts CPAP machines into emergency ventilators


----------



## loosie

tinyliny said:


> that sounds a bit like you are saying there is some kind of conspiracy. Do you really believe that? Because there are some truly wacko conspiracies going around in the US, and I assume elsewhere in the world, and they have the potential to cuase terrible trouble if they really catch on.


No, what I am talking about I wouldnt call a conspiracy, because I simply don't understand the motives, etc I am simply talking about what has been happening (long before covid19) and _questioning_ why it is happening more now in a lot of places. And that we shouldn't forget about all that while we are... Otherwise occupied.

And while there are many 'whacko' conspiracy theories' out there, without evidence or logic or rationality, I think it's vital to remember *the possibility* of conspiracy is not of itself at all necessarily 'whacko' & it would also be dangerously naive and irrational to lump every noise under the banner of 'whacko conspiracy' - not saying you are btw, I take it that you were just questioning me too.

But short of getting illegally(to HF) political, I don't know how to discuss it further here. I just have found you lot the most level headed people to discuss stuff with, as a rule, so...


----------



## aubie

walkinthewalk said:


> As of this afternoon, Thursday April 2, 2020:
> 
> Tennessee’s Governor Bill Lee is issuing a stay-at-home *order* requiring Tennesseans to avoid any travel except to carry out essential activities.
> 
> To date, Tennessee has more than 3000 confirmed cases of Coronavirus.
> 32 deaths.
> 220 recovered.
> .


Our governor just said TODAY that he just learned in the last 24 hours that people that weren't showing symptoms could be transmitting the disease. Unbelievable.

Edit - idiot https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/brian-kemp-georgia-governor-coronavirus-asymptomatic-092658014.html


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## ACinATX

aubie said:


> Our governor just said TODAY that he just learned in the last 24 hours that people that weren't showing symptoms could be transmitting the disease. Unbelievable.
> 
> Edit - idiot https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/brian-kemp-georgia-governor-coronavirus-asymptomatic-092658014.html


Translation: he was finally CONVINCED in the last 24 hours that ...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

There's nothing so tight as a closed mind.


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## Horsef

aubie said:


> Our governor just said TODAY that he just learned in the last 24 hours that people that weren't showing symptoms could be transmitting the disease. Unbelievable.
> U
> Edit - idiot https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/brian-kemp-georgia-governor-coronavirus-asymptomatic-092658014.html


They are most probably just covering their bottoms because they misjudged. I really doubt they didn’t know.

On an unrelated note - I hate watching that Dow ticker in red. I worked on trading floors for 20 years. That ticker makes it real for me and gives me palpitations more than anything else. Ugh.


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## walkinthewalk

aubie said:


> Our governor just said TODAY that he just learned in the last 24 hours that people that weren't showing symptoms could be transmitting the disease. Unbelievable.
> 
> Edit - idiot https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/brian-kemp-georgia-governor-coronavirus-asymptomatic-092658014.html


I saw that on the local news tonight, lol. What mountain cabin has he been holed up in.

Something else I saw on the new this week was the bit about people testing negative for Covid19, but could still be carriers.

I told DH a month ago that I thought the testing would never be totally accurate because this reminds me of Coggins testing for EIA in horses. They can have a negative Coggins today, get bit by the right mosquito tomorrow, and be EIA positive for however long it is until the next Coggins is required.

The Covid19 test is very beneficial but it still has that same margin for error a Coggins test has, IMO. We can have a negative result today, the right person coughs on us in Walmart tomorrow, and now we’ve got Covid19.


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## aubie

Yup that's the thing.


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## Horsef

walkinthewalk said:


> I saw that on the local news tonight, lol. What mountain cabin has he been holed up in.
> 
> Something else I saw on the new this week was the bit about people testing negative for Covid19, but could still be carriers.
> 
> I told DH a month ago that I thought the testing would never be totally accurate because this reminds me of Coggins testing for EIA in horses. They can have a negative Coggins today, get bit by the right mosquito tomorrow, and be EIA positive for however long it is until the next Coggins is required.
> 
> The Covid19 test is very beneficial but it still has that same margin for error a Coggins test has, IMO. We can have a negative result today, the right person coughs on us in Walmart tomorrow, and now we’ve got Covid19.


I don’t think that any test for a virus or bacteria can be 100% accurate because there is a period of time in which there isn’t enough pathogen or antibodies for them to be detectable. Theoretically, you could get sick with just one virus cell. Unless they swab that exact spot where the virus landed it’s obvious why they have false negatives. It is logically impossible to create a test which is 100% accurate at all times. That being said, statistics work and if we are able to remove the patient out of circulation as soon as we get a positive result - we greatly reduce the number of future spreaders. Epidemics are a geometric progression, not a linear process.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

What amazes me, and this is completely apolitical so no one would consider this offensive or breaking the rules, and I'm 68, but today we have two bipolar partisan news sources. 
Years ago we had "The News". It wasn't biased, simply reporting facts as best as they knew how.
Nowadays the majority of people are glued to one or the other news sources. Everything they do, say, act is based on what they fill their head with.
That to me is most profound. Watching friends and neighbors reactions to things to me is amazing. Case in point. My wife is getting cabin fever but unlike me can't go outside because of severe allergies, mostly to pollen. I have no clue what that's like, although I empathize for her. A friend/neighbor was going to visit today, except her husband said no. He watches TV 18 hours a day. So he's become a reclusive mask wearing manic. Bear in mind, we're very rural and houses are way apart.
The other fascinating thing is we (American citizens) were caught off guard.
What percent of the average populous knows about or practices hygienics.
I have to go to the grocery, hardware store or occasionally a restaurant take out. Tonight I get a restaurant take out, the fellow has on gloves and mask, but he's touching everything and I have to as well.
Hand cleaner is in short supply...but I have some in the car which I use, but after touching my keys, door handle, etc.
Grocery stores are a zoo. 
Amazing to me the variety of thoughts, reactions and priorities. Some hoard gold coins and bullion, some ammo, some toilet paper. As one neighbor who stopped by said from ten feet away it's all like some crazy dream...I just wished I could wake up.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## gottatrot

Yes and "the news" is why I am highly skeptical of all sources. Either openly has a bias, in the case of covid one downplays it all and the other states everything as worst case. Each one blames different people. It behooves some to claim ignorance. It helps to consider that many have things they are trying to gain.

My thought is that as @loosie said, consider the idea of conspiracies but balance that with remembering things in the past that turned out not to be. The idea that we are being lied to about how covid is transmitted is possible, but it would seem foolish to try to trick health care workers into exposing themselves to the virus, risking having many get sick. The airborne masks are actually used up less because you can keep using the same one with a face shield over it that is washable. The paper masks for droplet isolation are not reusable so those go fast.

In the past those in the know have been straightforward about things like ebola. I remember when many were convinced we were being lied to about HIV and how it was transmitted. There are still some nurses that want to gown up for HIV patients.

In my opinion it is best to look at actual research yourself.


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## aubie

Your post made me thinking of a show for the recommendations. The Newsroom. Granted it does have some slant but really well written and snappy dialogue. Anyway not to spoil to much but it remind me of this scene.


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## loosie

Bandanas/scarves - why are they pointless? Is it that they're generally thin & open weave? If so, would not a few layers, or closed weave fabric such as what they make 'rashy' clothes out of, be effective?

And I'm wondering just how careful I've got to be, to be safe enough to go visit my old mum?? The chemist today suggested that if I'm not completely self isolating - ie I'm going out at all or anyone in the household is - that I shouldn't go near her. I have been very careful, spraying every single thing, from letters to shopping, to car steering wheel & doors/handles, as well as my hands, with metho or 70% alcohol wipes when I must go out/bring something into the house(spilled metho on the antique table today & stuffed it...). Of course, washing hands well when possible instead of just spraying. Not touching anything while out unless absolutely necessary. We have been careful to go for walks where there are no people & not My husband has gone back to work as of yesterday, but he stayed in the camper & will do at least until I go. And it's been about a week & a half that I've been doing all this, will give it another week. 

Going to try get onto the 'hotline' now, but I sus it will be difficult/impossible to reach.


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## Spanish Rider

@loosie , no, Madrid is not completely shut-down. Logistically, it can't be. Think of the spokes of a bicycle: Madrid is the center of the wheel, and the highways are the spokes. Madrid is the center of the country, the only international airport for central Spain and has all the shipping and distribution centers for the country (from Madrid, you can get anywhere in the country in 5-6 hours or less).

So, the approach is to limit civilian movement (no one on the street) and stop/search vehicles on the roads coming and going to/from Madrid. Basically, if you're in a vehicle that's not a truck or delivery van, you'll get stopped and fined/jailed.



> They're advising medical personnel not to wear their scrubs outside of the hospital so that people don't know they're medical personnel.


Here, medical personnel have never worn scrubs outside of hospitals. They belong to the hospitals and are laundered by the hospitals. It defeats the sanitary purpose of wearing scrubs if they are worn out, and who can guarantee that they are being sanitized daily?


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Spanish Rider said:


> Here, medical personnel have never worn scrubs outside of hospitals. They belong to the hospitals and are laundered by the hospitals. It defeats the sanitary purpose of wearing scrubs if they are worn out, and who can guarantee that they are being sanitized daily?


In the US a lot of medical personnel who don't work in hospitals wear scrubs. They buy and care for their own scrubs, they are not owned by the medical or dental practices. My husband works in an Urgent Care facility, he wears scrubs because if he has to do a minor procedure in the office, he doesn't want body fluids all over his good clothing. A set of scrubs can cost around $30-60, a good pair of pants, shirt, shoes can cost over $500. He wears sneakers instead of dress shoes, they can go right into the laundry. His nurses, lab techs and radiology techs and the receptionists all wear scrubs, they're kind of a uniform and they're color coded (provider wears navy, reception grey, rad techs maroon, etc). Because they are a uniform and required for work they are also tax deductible, regular office clothes are not. I just bought him 5 new sets of Carhartt scrubs for just about $260, can't buy a new pair of good dress pants for that price and I couldn't deduct them on taxes as a business expense. 

They get washed daily, when he gets home he goes directly to the laundry room puts everything including his sneakers into the wash, they get washed on the sanitizing cycle and dried and ready to go again. He works 4 days/week, so keeps an extra set of scrubs at the office in case he needs to change mid-day. 

It's not unusual to see off duty nurses or docs at the grocery, gas station, in their scrubs, they're either going in or going home and stopping to pick up a meal or filling up with gas.


----------



## boots

I wear one set of clothes from home to the hospital. I carry another set. I change once I'm there, including shoes that never leave. At the end of the day, I change back. What I wore that day goes back home in a cloth bag and I wash everything that evening.

But I do that during our whole flu season. Every year. October to May.

Although I treat patients, my dress is business casual. Khakis and a blouse with running shoes.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Please forgive me, and this is not directed at anyone in particular, but I am absolutely INCENSED that anyone would call into question what is happening in Spain and Italy right now, writing it off as a standard flu season, etc.

FACT: In Spain, people dying in senior centers, at home and in rural areas without testing are NOT listed as COVID19 deaths.

FACT: Madrid has built a 5,500-bed field hospital in the convention center, as well as tents at individual hospitals and hotels, that are filled to the brim.

FACT: Before C19, the standard volume of bodies buried in Madrid was 100-120 per day. They are currently burying 600-700/day.

FACT: Religious burial services at Madrid cemeteries with a priest are limited to 7 minutes each.

FACT: Cemetery burial 'technicians' are burying a body every 10 minutes.

FACT: The military is moving bodies from hospitals and senior centers in trucks because the standard morgue services cannot handle the volume.

FACT: The Madrid ice-skating palace is being used as a morgue.

FACT: Ultimately, the problem with COVID19 is NOT the death rate, but the 20% requiring medical treatment, hospitalization and mechanical ventilation, from 5 to 15 days each. 

FACT: Spanish physicians are retro-fitting snorkeling masks for use as CPAP masks to meet demand.

FACT: Physicians and nurses are dying from Covid19 - around 70 in Italy and 8? 9? in Spain in the past 2 weeks. Near me, a 28-year-old physician died on Tuesday.

FACT: Spain has excellent, universal healthcare, ranked among the best in the world. Spain is also the NUMBER ONE country in organ transplantations. Those who may question our healthcare quality do not know what they are talking about. This is not South America, this is not Africa, this is Europe for God's sake.

FACT: The supermarket delivery person comes to my house with latex gloves, a surgical mask AND a face shield.

FACT: My next-door neighbor owns a cleaning supply company. He sells masks, latex gloves, disinfectants and alcohol solutions. But, this week, his best-selling product is XXL-trash bags.

FACT: Even after 3 weeks of quarantine, infection and death rates in Spain have not begun to level-off yet.

FACT-ish: I just had to take my dog to the vet because she had a bloody foot (black dog - couldn't find the source). I drove through 2 towns and saw about 10 people. EVERYONE was wearing masks, some masks and gloves. And the numbers in our province continue to grow. 


So, everyone is able to make up their own mind about what they believe or don't believe. And I understand that different areas have different realities at this time. However, I believe that many peoples' minds are being befuddled by politics in countries/areas that have not been hard hit (yet). Believe what you will, but I would advise listening to healthcare specialists and NOT politicians. And, please* do not dare question our reality*.


----------



## Spanish Rider

> he wears scrubs because if he has to do a minor procedure in the office, he doesn't want body fluids all over his good clothing.


And that is exacty why scrubs are not worn out of the hospital here.


----------



## Spanish Rider

This week, Covid19 now accounts for more deaths in Spain than any other cause:


----------



## ACinATX

Reading the latest articles, I get the impression that intelligent people in the government would like to tell everyone to wear masks, since we don't know the particulars of how it spreads, but they aren't saying it because masks need to go to health care providers. So I got out my reusable mask that I use for allergies and wore it to the store. I am not usually a self-conscious person, but I felt like everyone was staring. No one else had masks. Also, it made me feel hot and short of breath. Just like a sick person. I will keep wearing though, I guess. For all I know, I'm sick and spreading it right now, even though I feel fine and have no temperature. Better to help keep others healthy.


----------



## boots

ACinATX said:


> . So I got out my reusable mask that I use for allergies and wore it to the store. I am not usually a self-conscious person, but I felt like everyone was staring.


Hey, that can be a decent thing!

I'm wearing a mask when I have to go to the grocery store. I'm there only one in my family going into stores.

People do a biblical parting of the sea when they see me. 

I'm also not going to the ranch where my cows are because there are a couple high risk people there. So I don't have access to meat. But I was able to get two packs earlier this week because others in the store ducked down other aisles when they saw me.


----------



## aubie

Spanish Rider said:


> Please forgive me, and this is not directed at anyone in particular, but I am absolutely INCENSED that anyone would call into question what is happening in Spain and Italy right now, writing it off as a standard flu season, etc.
> 
> FACT: In Spain, people dying in senior centers, at home and in rural areas without testing are NOT listed as COVID19 deaths.
> 
> FACT: Madrid has built a 5,500-bed field hospital in the convention center, as well as tents at individual hospitals and hotels, that are filled to the brim.
> 
> FACT: Before C19, the standard volume of bodies buried in Madrid was 100-120 per day. They are currently burying 600-700/day.
> 
> FACT: Religious burial services at Madrid cemeteries with a priest are limited to 7 minutes each.
> 
> FACT: Cemetery burial 'technicians' are burying a body every 10 minutes.
> 
> FACT: The military is moving bodies from hospitals and senior centers in trucks because the standard morgue services cannot handle the volume.
> 
> FACT: The Madrid ice-skating palace is being used as a morgue.
> 
> FACT: Ultimately, the problem with COVID19 is NOT the death rate, but the 20% requiring medical treatment, hospitalization and mechanical ventilation, from 5 to 15 days each.
> 
> FACT: Spanish physicians are retro-fitting snorkeling masks for use as CPAP masks to meet demand.
> 
> FACT: Physicians and nurses are dying from Covid19 - around 70 in Italy and 8? 9? in Spain in the past 2 weeks. Near me, a 28-year-old physician died on Tuesday.
> 
> FACT: Spain has excellent, universal healthcare, ranked among the best in the world. Spain is also the NUMBER ONE country in organ transplantations. Those who may question our healthcare quality do not know what they are talking about. This is not South America, this is not Africa, this is Europe for God's sake.
> 
> FACT: The supermarket delivery person comes to my house with latex gloves, a surgical mask AND a face shield.
> 
> FACT: My next-door neighbor owns a cleaning supply company. He sells masks, latex gloves, disinfectants and alcohol solutions. But, this week, his best-selling product is XXL-trash bags.
> 
> FACT: Even after 3 weeks of quarantine, infection and death rates in Spain have not begun to level-off yet.
> 
> FACT-ish: I just had to take my dog to the vet because she had a bloody foot (black dog - couldn't find the source). I drove through 2 towns and saw about 10 people. EVERYONE was wearing masks, some masks and gloves. And the numbers in our province continue to grow.
> 
> 
> So, everyone is able to make up their own mind about what they believe or don't believe. And I understand that different areas have different realities at this time. However, I believe that many peoples' minds are being befuddled by politics in countries/areas that have not been hard hit (yet). Believe what you will, but I would advise listening to healthcare specialists and NOT politicians. And, please* do not dare question our reality*.


I am sorry to hear and thank you for the time to posted all of that. I understand your frustration. This comparison to the flu is ridiculous. Part of why we are in for a rough time is that very reason.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> This week, Covid19 now accounts for more deaths in Spain than any other cause:


Sorry, just to confirm, these are deaths per week for entire Spain?

I am sorry you are going through this. Nobody else is safe either, we are all just waiting for our own explosion.


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

Spanish Rider said:


> Please forgive me, and this is not directed at anyone in particular, but I am absolutely INCENSED that anyone would call into question what is happening in Spain and Italy right now, writing it off as a standard flu season, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: In Spain, people dying in senior centers, at home and in rural areas without testing are NOT listed as COVID19 deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: Madrid has built a 5,500-bed field hospital in the convention center, as well as tents at individual hospitals and hotels, that are filled to the brim.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: Before C19, the standard volume of bodies buried in Madrid was 100-120 per day. They are currently burying 600-700/day.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: Religious burial services at Madrid cemeteries with a priest are limited to 7 minutes each.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: Cemetery burial 'technicians' are burying a body every 10 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: The military is moving bodies from hospitals and senior centers in trucks because the standard morgue services cannot handle the volume.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: The Madrid ice-skating palace is being used as a morgue.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: Ultimately, the problem with COVID19 is NOT the death rate, but the 20% requiring medical treatment, hospitalization and mechanical ventilation, from 5 to 15 days each.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: Spanish physicians are retro-fitting snorkeling masks for use as CPAP masks to meet demand.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: Physicians and nurses are dying from Covid19 - around 70 in Italy and 8? 9? in Spain in the past 2 weeks. Near me, a 28-year-old physician died on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: Spain has excellent, universal healthcare, ranked among the best in the world. Spain is also the NUMBER ONE country in organ transplantations. Those who may question our healthcare quality do not know what they are talking about. This is not South America, this is not Africa, this is Europe for God's sake.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: The supermarket delivery person comes to my house with latex gloves, a surgical mask AND a face shield.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: My next-door neighbor owns a cleaning supply company. He sells masks, latex gloves, disinfectants and alcohol solutions. But, this week, his best-selling product is XXL-trash bags.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT: Even after 3 weeks of quarantine, infection and death rates in Spain have not begun to level-off yet.
> 
> 
> 
> FACT-ish: I just had to take my dog to the vet because she had a bloody foot (black dog - couldn't find the source). I drove through 2 towns and saw about 10 people. EVERYONE was wearing masks, some masks and gloves. And the numbers in our province continue to grow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, everyone is able to make up their own mind about what they believe or don't believe. And I understand that different areas have different realities at this time. However, I believe that many peoples' minds are being befuddled by politics in countries/areas that have not been hard hit (yet). Believe what you will, but I would advise listening to healthcare specialists and NOT politicians. And, please* do not dare question our reality*.


Curious why the death rates are so high in Italy and Spain?!?
After all, the virus STARTED in Wuhan, China. Wuhan's population is 11 million alone! China's population is 1.4 billion!!!
Spain's population is 46.7 million and yet the death rate (so far!) in Spain is three times that of China!
The virus has had more time to spread at the source (China) before migrating to Europe. Any ideas why this is?









Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## loosie

Spanish Rider said:


> advise listening to healthcare specialists and NOT politicians. And, please* do not dare question our reality*.


Yes absolutely. I am very sorry if you took offended to the way I put my questions, but I was not in the least insinuating I was 'questioning your reality' or doubting how serious it is. I was just trying to understand where the noises about the flu being worse had come from, whether or not it was complete fabrication or what of any truth was twisted to get there.

@Fuddyduddy yes, it never ceases to amaze me how gullible many people are. I gave up watching/reading mainstream 'news' many years ago for the most part(tho Australia's ABC still isn't bad... When they're not being hamstrung). And it's a sad reality that politicians are also, for the vast majority, barely worth listening to either... The crap is so deeply ingrained...


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## Acadianartist

Thank you @Spanish Rider. I am also unable to comprehend how anyone could still choose to believe that this isn't really that bad. It is a grim new reality we live in. I'm not trying to be pessimistic or alarmist, but pretending everything is ok and that this is some massive conspiracy to play with the numbers is just absurd. 

Glad our politicians are facing it squarely and that most people are social distancing in the hopes that we will not get hit too hard in my part of the world. I also want to express my gratitude to people from Italy and Spain for their brutally honest advice that has hopefully hit home with our politicians here in Canada.


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## Spanish Rider

> Sorry, just to confirm, these are deaths per week for entire Spain?


Yes, 5,619 deaths in the last week of March.
Avg 803 deaths per day.

Yesterday's death total was 900+.


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## SwissMiss

Acadianartist said:


> Glad our politicians are facing it squarely and that most people are social distancing in the hopes that we will not get hit too hard in my part of the world.


Unfortunately this is not what I experience in my neck of the woods


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## Fuddyduddy1952

I still love to know why rates so high certain countries. You have to consider population, know cases, recoveries, deaths to get a clear understanding. 
Started in China...Italy and Spain worse...why?

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## Spanish Rider

@loosie , no worries. There is a lot of naysaying going on in may media outlets, and I have college friends in several parts of the US where people are not taking this seriously. And, maybe they're right. Who knows? But that does not mean that we are not being hit hard or that it couldn't happen elsewhere.


@Fuddyduddy , currently my opinion is that we do not have truthful information from Wuhan. Or, perhaps they were reporting in a different manner (only test-confirmed cases, etc.).

Secondly, China had a single focus: Wuhan. It was much easier to cut off and control. Plus, as a manufacturing country, they did not run out of materials or tests. And, they do not have to worry about civil liberties, so asymptomatic positives and mild cases were put into quarantine facilities.

Spain has been hit on several fronts: Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and Victoria. We have a hippy-dippy socialist/communist coalition government that had only been in government for a few months before the crisis. They were slow to declare the State of Alarm and quarantine. They did not learn from Italy, they did not buy medical materials, they thought it wouldn't happen here. 

Spain is an agricultural/tourism country. We have little manufacturing power, and hospitals ran out of PPE and other materials fast. We still do not have mass testing.

We also have a very large aging population. Average life expectancy is 82 in men and 86 in women.

But, mainly I attribute the rapid expanse to bad government, slow decision-making, and not enough medical materials being manufactured here, and now the internatinal competition is fierce.


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## horselovinguy

Think Spainsh Rider is stating much the same thing as I....

It has been suggested that accurate reporting of figures has not been done by some nations.
How people are tested, who are tested is also very different... 

I believe Spain tested everyone within the country where as many places are selectively screening, testing only those who exhibit several symptoms and is reporting based on national testing done... 
If you are not "officially" diagnosed with, whether you live or die you are _not_ counted in statistics of Covid-19.

Spain appears to also been hit hard, with very limited supplies of medical equipment and still the "curve" is not fading fast enough.
Is congestion of people, living in smaller confines partly responsible?
Is tourism a contributing factor?
Is the fact that all must pass through one central locale part of the reason the infection rate is so high?
I don't know but reading what Spanish Rider and others have contributed makes me wonder...
Even here in the US, the areas where we were first hit and hit hard are epicenters for travel from all over the world.. NY is a huge city of tourism, a epicenter to get to other parts of the country and abroad... California is the same, Washington a hotspot for residents of those areas abroad where first hit. Florida is one of the largest tourism destinations in the world with our theme parks...billions a year travel through here and once this started to hit those other areas, those fleeing ran to vacation residences in areas not equipped to handle deadly illnesses in the hundreds at a time..

As for why masks and protective equipment is not being recommended to be utilized by all...
Shelter in place, Stay Home Orders mandated now in many areas are in part to keep distances between infected and clean individuals they do not seem to understand the magnitude of this disaster unfolding around them.
If you are not in contact, are in your yard, in your home and not out and about anyplace...then the need for those items is greatly reduced if not eliminated to free them up for those who are rendering care and do need.
I don't think anyone would say to not use & wear if we had hundreds of thousands of extra sitting in warehouses, on store shelves and available...the fact is the world, everywhere in the world is demanding supplies and there is only so much of any item to go around.
When you must change all your PPE every-time you go patient to patient, several times an hour and its several people giving care you go through enormous supplies not being replenished fast enough.
The demand for billions and factories only able to supply millions present overwhelming issues...
Most of us who are home, if you stay home and to yourself as asked, pleaded with and now demanded _do not_ need such things ever...truth.
People have panic bought once again, hoarding things they shall never use, in turn hurting many institutions of care giving, their staff and first responders out in the field.
It isn't that hospitals and facilities did not have, they did not have the volume for instead of 4 needing serious infection control practices, they have 30 or more at the same time times 500 hospitals all faced with the same scenarios = huge shortages.
That is my take on this disaster unfolding around us. 

The more you go out anyplace, the bigger the chance of you contracting this and dying!
Those who "only go for a horseback ride"...you put yourself at risk. 
If your horse is boarded and under full board..._stay home._
Reduce the risk to you, to barn workers who if they get sick your horse will then truly suffer...
You don't know who was present before you, what was touched, what is infected by walking in someones footprint.._.yes that contagious. _
It _isn't_ only by touch or near/close-contact this is spread...
It is by making excuses that "I must...."...sorry no, not if you are in full-care situations.

So...
Please reconsider and think again very carefully of is it worth it to go see your horse, pony, donkey, or mini...
Can I stay home for 2 weeks and leave the care to someone else as would happen if away on vacation...when I get back I can again do my choice of care, but till this stops stay home.
Is it worth it to get sick and die, lose your son, daughter, husband, wife or others...loved family member or friend cause you "had" to go out...
If you aren't needing food or medication, seeking medical care...stay home and keep to yourself and you might, _just might_ escape the grim reaper of death. 

The grim reaper is calling to many to go and no sign of appeasement and lessening of the death call happening yet...very sad statistics and true ones...we are not winning this one yet.
We can if people would just heed the "Stay Home"...


_hlg..._


----------



## Foxhunter

Saw something this morning that not many would see!

There were four runners - all keeping their distance, I watched them run up and down the pathways and eventually they came past me. Leaders had swapped and this time a lad of about 12 was leading, taking the hilliest parts the others followimg. As they went by I saw that the second youngest mid 20s had a baby in a carrier on his back. Behind him was another man 50 ish and at the back a much older man, probably on his 70s. 

They had stopped in the car park to catch their breath and on asking i was told four generations. 

Bet there aren't many families that can say four generations go running together!


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## gottatrot

@loosie, if you feel you need to check on your mom, I would say you could safely see her if you assume you are infected or she is infected. In other words, a short visit (a few minutes), no hugs or touching, stay six feet away. Wear a mask and ideally, gloves. Wash and sanitize hands before going in and avoid touching things. Do not cough or sneeze around her or her house.

My parents were sick last week and my dad is 85, was asking if he should go to the hospital. I wore a mask, gloves, and acted like we were all infected to be safe. I put on clean clothes before the visit and sat in one chair, which my mom wiped down when I got up. They were fine but I had to check.

If the visit is only for emotional reasons, and it is not necessary to check on her health or safety, I would avoid it. If you suspect she may not be well or making safe decisions (as in my case), better check on her. 

If there was a way to just drive up and have her come and talk from her doorway at a distance, that would be even safer.


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## Foxhunter

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> I still love to know why rates so high certain countries. You have to consider population, know cases, recoveries, deaths to get a clear understanding.
> Started in China...Italy and Spain worse...why?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


I think part of the reason Spain and Italy are being hit so hard is because it is very common for two or three generations live together and it is (usually) the older generations that suffer for it.


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## mkmurphy81

Sorry for jumping in the conversation late. I'm in Louisiana (US) which is one of the hard hit small states. Most of the cases are on the other end of the state from me, but I can tell you why some of the numbers don't make sense.
Few people have been tested. Some of those who have been tested are waiting more than a week for their results. One of those tests belongs to my mother. She was tested on 3/23 and still has not gotten her results. She was very sick last week, but has recovered now. Her doctor, who she has been talking with daily, thinks she had covid-19. My dad probably had it before my mother did. They are both in their late 60s, have no underlying conditions, never went to the hospital, and have completely recovered. They're not counted in the statistics.
For that matter, I had a bad cough last week. I had contact with my parents before they knew to self isolate. I'm in my late 30s and teach school. My immune system could take down a horse. I may have had covid-19. I was not tested. I'm quarantined with two kids. Kids are often asymptomatic. Did they have the virus, too? We may never know. Testing is too scarce.
Of course the numbers don't make sense. Of course the numbers are vastly different in different regions. They're not counting enough people quickly enough.
At this point, I hope my family members and I did have the virus already. I hope there were many more like us that did have it already, too. I hope heard immunity builds up faster than predicted. However, until they have a test for immunity, I'll be staying here at home.


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## aubie

China has some very misleading numbers. Like death at over 3,000 . Half as much than us with 3 times the population. But other things are starting to tell the tale. ONE funeral home got 2 orders of urns of 5,000 in one week. They have lost 21 million cell phone customers this year. Yes a lot due to people losing work but still


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## ClearDonkey

I'm a bit late to this thread - I've been trying to limit my covid-19 media consumption to only getting the updates at the very beginning of the day. My anxiety has been at an all time high lately, but I still have been prioritizing staying informed day-to-day.

I'm in Michigan, and have recently moved to Lansing, the state capitol. People seem to be taking the virus pretty seriously around here. Very few cars on the roads, and people seem to be taking precautions at stores. There are some outliers to this (looking at you, full families in the grocery stores and those that don't seem to know what 6 feet is), but the accusations of this virus just "being a flu" seem to be dying down, even on social media. My horses future boarding barn is shut-down to non-essential staff, and has absolutely no visitors. I've been working from home for three weeks, and am home for at least another four weeks.

I am willing to say that it is a different story in the upper peninsula of Michigan...my horses current boarding barn is not yet closed, and it seems like there is still a circulation of the virus just "being a flu" on social media and even their local newspaper(s). 

It seems like people just aren't taking it seriously enough until it effects their social circle/town. That's deadly.

Testing needs to increase, ASAP. Right now, really the east side of the state (Detroit) is only really reporting virus cases (and even then, I'm sure they are WAY low). The west side of the state (Holland, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo) has very few reported cases, and those being tested are few and far between. 

My mom lives in the west side of the state, and cannot be tested, despite having all of the symptoms and having pneumonia (x-ray showed half of one lung and a quarter of the other full of fluid). The doc said they aren't testing until your O2 levels get low enough...they told her to have a bag packed to come back to the hospital when she can't breathe and needs to be admitted. Great idea.

A coworker here in the capitol had a high fever that lasted 12 days so far... Pretty sure he just recently got tested, and it sounds like it may have been too late to test him. He has the residual pneumonia now, but I heard the doc say that the virus may already be out of his system.

Not sure where all of this was going...Just had to get it off my mind and out there. Scary times we are facing.


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## aubie

Keeping a good thought and prayer for your mom @ClearDonkey


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## Spanish Rider

@horselovinguy ,


> Is congestion of people, living in smaller confines partly responsible?
> Is tourism a contributing factor?
> Is the fact that all must pass through one central locale part of the reason the infection rate is so high


I would say it's sort of a perfect storm here:
-tourism (lots from Asia)
-major international airport connecting all of Europe/Asia with South America and the Caribbean/Miami
-very close relationship with Italy (2h by plane - lots of weekend trips, high school exchanges)
-greetings with kisses on cheek
-population density in cities
-people get out everyday to go buy fresh bread, have a coffee/drink, outdoor cafés - very social culture
-crammed public transportation
-when schools were closed first (before companies) many young children were spending the day at their grandparents' homes

And, you are correct in saying that many large US cities share many of those factors, and those will be the hardest hit. Initially. 


I read something on Twitter that provided a very good (albeit crude) visual:

(and I paraphrase) *'Having some states/cities on lockdown, while others are not, is like having a peeing-only section in a swimming pool.'*


----------



## SilverMaple

SwissMiss said:


> Unfortunately this is not what I experience in my neck of the woods


Ours, either. Political beliefs are overriding science, once again. It's infuriating.

The reason Italy and Spain are having this hit much harder than China is multifold, but I also do not trust the numbers that came out of China. It just wasn't accurate, thus too many didn't take it seriously. Far too many deaths were not reported at all, or attributed to other causes.


----------



## tinyliny

This:


I read something on Twitter that provided a very good (albeit crude) visual:

(and I paraphrase) *'Having some states/cities on lockdown, while others are not, is like having a peeing-only section in a swimming pool.'*
*
*
*
*
I am in Washington State, the first to have known Covid19 deaths in USA. We reacted quickly, and our infection rate is leveling off. As is that of California. We may not need the huge field hospitals that were quickly erected. I hope we will have extra supplies to share with other state.


But, it steams my clams that some states, for political reasons, I guess , are just going "La dee dah . . . " skipping along as usual, and when things get bad . . who will pick up that tab? you know who. those that bit the bullet!


----------



## BzooZu

Horsef said:


> My main question is how many of those cardio and stroke deaths which would have happened anyway were attributed to Covid19. I am guessing that Germany is assigning a lot of theirs to other causes. I am not accusing them of fiddling with the numbers. I am trying to figure out what the actual process is like in various countries. I guess we will only get that answer after many years of research - and not on a horse forum


Not sure about Germany, but we list anyone who dies while tested positive on COVID-19 as a death caused by the coronavirus. On the other hand we are not too swamped yet, so when the autopsy shows that the person died of other causes and just happened to have COVID-19 too and they didnt have the lung damage associated with coronavirus we take them down from the list. As far as I know there had been at least 3 people like that. 
But we are still at the beginnings of this pandemic here so that may change and then our numbers will probably count anyone who died WITH, and maybe not because of COVID-19 as being a victim of the virus.


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

horselovinguy said:


> Think Spainsh Rider is stating much the same thing as I....
> 
> It has been suggested that accurate reporting of figures has not been done by some nations.
> How people are tested, who are tested is also very different...
> 
> I believe Spain tested everyone within the country where as many places are selectively screening, testing only those who exhibit several symptoms and is reporting based on national testing done...
> If you are not "officially" diagnosed with, whether you live or die you are _not_ counted in statistics of Covid-19.
> 
> Spain appears to also been hit hard, with very limited supplies of medical equipment and still the "curve" is not fading fast enough.
> Is congestion of people, living in smaller confines partly responsible?
> Is tourism a contributing factor?
> Is the fact that all must pass through one central locale part of the reason the infection rate is so high?
> I don't know but reading what Spanish Rider and others have contributed makes me wonder...
> Even here in the US, the areas where we were first hit and hit hard are epicenters for travel from all over the world.. NY is a huge city of tourism, a epicenter to get to other parts of the country and abroad... California is the same, Washington a hotspot for residents of those areas abroad where first hit. Florida is one of the largest tourism destinations in the world with our theme parks...billions a year travel through here and once this started to hit those other areas, those fleeing ran to vacation residences in areas not equipped to handle deadly illnesses in the hundreds at a time..
> 
> As for why masks and protective equipment is not being recommended to be utilized by all...
> Shelter in place, Stay Home Orders mandated now in many areas are in part to keep distances between infected and clean individuals they do not seem to understand the magnitude of this disaster unfolding around them.
> If you are not in contact, are in your yard, in your home and not out and about anyplace...then the need for those items is greatly reduced if not eliminated to free them up for those who are rendering care and do need.
> I don't think anyone would say to not use & wear if we had hundreds of thousands of extra sitting in warehouses, on store shelves and available...the fact is the world, everywhere in the world is demanding supplies and there is only so much of any item to go around.
> When you must change all your PPE every-time you go patient to patient, several times an hour and its several people giving care you go through enormous supplies not being replenished fast enough.
> The demand for billions and factories only able to supply millions present overwhelming issues...
> Most of us who are home, if you stay home and to yourself as asked, pleaded with and now demanded _do not_ need such things ever...truth.
> People have panic bought once again, hoarding things they shall never use, in turn hurting many institutions of care giving, their staff and first responders out in the field.
> It isn't that hospitals and facilities did not have, they did not have the volume for instead of 4 needing serious infection control practices, they have 30 or more at the same time times 500 hospitals all faced with the same scenarios = huge shortages.
> That is my take on this disaster unfolding around us.
> 
> The more you go out anyplace, the bigger the chance of you contracting this and dying!
> Those who "only go for a horseback ride"...you put yourself at risk.
> If your horse is boarded and under full board..._stay home._
> Reduce the risk to you, to barn workers who if they get sick your horse will then truly suffer...
> You don't know who was present before you, what was touched, what is infected by walking in someones footprint.._.yes that contagious. _
> It _isn't_ only by touch or near/close-contact this is spread...
> It is by making excuses that "I must...."...sorry no, not if you are in full-care situations.
> 
> So...
> Please reconsider and think again very carefully of is it worth it to go see your horse, pony, donkey, or mini...
> Can I stay home for 2 weeks and leave the care to someone else as would happen if away on vacation...when I get back I can again do my choice of care, but till this stops stay home.
> Is it worth it to get sick and die, lose your son, daughter, husband, wife or others...loved family member or friend cause you "had" to go out...
> If you aren't needing food or medication, seeking medical care...stay home and keep to yourself and you might, _just might_ escape the grim reaper of death.
> 
> The grim reaper is calling to many to go and no sign of appeasement and lessening of the death call happening yet...very sad statistics and true ones...we are not winning this one yet.
> We can if people would just heed the "Stay Home"...
> 
> 
> _hlg..._


I understand what you're saying...except one could take all precautions, stay home, wash hands, wear mask, etc., but; everyone has to eat. So there's the problem. Grocery stores, take-out, or even home delivery is the problem.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## BzooZu

ACinATX said:


> Reading the latest articles, I get the impression that intelligent people in the government would like to tell everyone to wear masks, since we don't know the particulars of how it spreads, but they aren't saying it because masks need to go to health care providers. So I got out my reusable mask that I use for allergies and wore it to the store. I am not usually a self-conscious person, but I felt like everyone was staring. No one else had masks. Also, it made me feel hot and short of breath. Just like a sick person. I will keep wearing though, I guess. For all I know, I'm sick and spreading it right now, even though I feel fine and have no temperature. Better to help keep others healthy.


Kudos for wearing the mask even though no one else did. Also even if you dont have to wear the masks YET, that may change any day so dont let other people staring keep you from doing what you think is the best. 

Here we are required to wear a mask when in public places - which means, if you are out of your house, you have to wear one. And I have to admit it does make me feel kind of sick wearing it for over 9 hours at work - I cant imagine how bad all the doctors and nurses feel when they have to wear it for 14 or more hours.

On another note, for a week or so here we had a problem to buy an elastic band because everyone was making their masks at home so if you know that there is a shortage of mask for hospital staff in your country maybe get some elastic and some fabric now while its still possible so you can make your own mask. Youtube has soooo many how-to videos right now that its kind of depressing. There is a very high possibility that you will need your mask soon and I would say its better to be safe than sorry.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Foxhunter said:


> I think part of the reason Spain and Italy are being hit so hard is because it is very common for two or three generations live together and it is (usually) the older generations that suffer for it.


I didn't read this huge Wuhan article, but there are video clips showing the living conditions. Talk about close quarters! So it's still confusing to me (ratio China to Spain & Italy)...
Wuhan coronavirus: What life is like inside quarantined Chinese city - Business Insider
https://www.businessinsider.com/wuh...ife-like-inside-quarantined-city-china-2020-2

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## tinyliny

I still think that the statistically low spread of the disease in China, Korea, and Japan is due to people having an ingrained acceptance of wearing masks, at the first sign of illness. When EVERYONE wears a mask, it does reduce transmission.


People don't spit on the street with a mask on (something very 'normal' in many Asian countries) People cannot touch their own mouths. A sneaker sneeze can't go as far. The mask serves as a remind to slow down, be careful, wash your hands, don't stand real close to another. MASKS MATTER. even cloth ones.


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## SwissMiss

SilverMaple said:


> Ours, either. Political beliefs are overriding science, once again. It's infuriating.


Well, surprisingly enough our entire state was put on a shelter-in-place ordinance, effective as of today afternoon. It just became apparent that voluntary measures won't cut it.

However, I had already some telling me that they don't care and are still doing what they were doing before; LEO's have better things to do than check them :shrug:

But I wanted to add something else here: I live in a state that is notoriously far down in any ranking except for a variety of health problems... But the hospital I work at started preparing even _before_ spring break. Starting to locate/stock up on PPE and furiously working on a detection kit development (done!)... And keeping up with trying to be as prepared as possible. Honestly, it makes me proud to work for an organization that stepped up the game before most in the US even considered it a threat. And keeps on bracing/preparing for the surge to hit...


----------



## horselovinguy

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> I still love to know why rates so high certain countries. You have to consider population, know cases, recoveries, deaths to get a clear understanding.
> Started in China...Italy and Spain worse...why?



I came across this a short time ago...
Perspective about numbers suddenly so enormous here & still growing in the USA in relation to at least one other nation...
This is *NOT* to diminish the seriousness of this disaster for humanity, but perspective happened.
I am _*not*_ in favor of "relaxing" but stay vigilant, stay home and stay safer and healthier...
_ hlg..._


----------



## tinyliny

Isn't California pretty close to the population size of Italy? Maybe CA plus Oregon.


----------



## Acadianartist

Well this peaked my interest today. Probably way out in left field, but rather interesting for horse people. Maybe time to pick up some dewormers for the horses before this goes mainstream. I am NOT in any way suggesting this will work, just came across it and had to pause to make sure I was reading correctly. 

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...S1vXg4OwOZ95SQ4HxbyU1__IFg-Ygd8x8w-AI7F4eREdE


----------



## tinyliny

my neighbor said that domestic cats are catching Covid. could this be true?


----------



## tinyliny

Also, bleach kills the virus, in vitro, too. Not anywhere near the same thing as what works in the real human body.


----------



## boots

Acadianartist said:


> Well this peaked my interest today. Probably way out in left field, but rather interesting for horse people. Maybe time to pick up some dewormers for the horses before this goes mainstream. I am NOT in any way suggesting this will work, just came across it and had to pause to make sure I was reading correctly.
> 
> https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...S1vXg4OwOZ95SQ4HxbyU1__IFg-Ygd8x8w-AI7F4eREdE


I read that, too. Hope nobody is desperate enough to try it on they're own. But I'm glad scientists are looking at all possibilities.


----------



## loosie

gottatrot said:


> @loosie, if you feel you need to check on your mom, I would say you could safely see her if you assume you are infected or she is infected. In other words, a short visit (a few minutes),


Yeah, I know I can safely go *check* on her, but I wanted to go *stay* with her, as she is all alone. My sister has been doing shopping for her, leaving it at the front door... I can go visit her & stay in the front yard, talk to her thru the security door. I have meals made up for her in the freezer here which I wanted to take around.... But it's not like it's around the corner - it's an hour's drive(well, maybe less as there will be little traffic). 

Yeah, writing this & upon more thought, I won't go at all. Just so very sad...


----------



## Wild Heart

Oh, you absolutely know there will be some people running out to purchase it from the farm stores! 

Luckily, I have quite a bit of Ivermectin at home. Two big bottles in the fridge from the vet for the pigs and of course, a few tubes for the horses that don't expire anytime soon. 

I just wonder why they need to figure out a human dose? Isn't Ivermectin already used for humans?


----------



## Captain Evil

Acadianartist said:


> Well this peaked my interest today. Probably way out in left field, but rather interesting for horse people. Maybe time to pick up some dewormers for the horses before this goes mainstream. I am NOT in any way suggesting this will work, just came across it and had to pause to make sure I was reading correctly.
> 
> Coronavirus Australia: Ivermectin, Anti-parasitic drug kills COVID-19 in lab
> A single dose of an anti-parasitic drug could essentially remove all genetic material of the COVID-19 virus within 48 hours, an Australian-led study has shown.
> 
> So at 120 pounds each, one tube of Zimectrin could treat a family of 10... hmmm...:think:
> 
> My county now has two cases, and it is just the beginning. DH and I have been self-isolating since we got home from the airport on March 14 and have gone out twice since then to get groceries... We go at 5 am and even then, there are plenty of people there (and still no toilet paper...). Some are wearing masks and those people are almost the worst: coming up behind you and crowding... I was getting some figs for my parrot, and one guy came up behind me and started fake coughing so I would back off: he got his item and left. Right now it is only coffee cream and eggs that we have gone out for: even meat and vegetables we now have delivered once a week or twice a month.
> 
> It is so confusing: I keep looking to see what countries are seeming to make progress against this, but it is so hard to tell. :-(


----------



## loosie

tinyliny said:


> But, it steams my clams...


Um... thanks for that... rather unpleasant thought picture! :lol:


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

tinyliny said:


> my neighbor said that domestic cats are catching Covid. could this be true?


Not really. Of course, we do not know enough about COVID-19 in general to make such bold assumptions either way right this second. The CDC (which in my opinion is one of the only truly scientifically trusted places to find information like this) says there is no evidence that cats or dogs are capable of catching the virus.

Basically, people continue to confuse "coronaviruses" (which is an entire class of viruses) with COVID-19 in particular. Some coronaviruses are caught and transmitted by animals. But right now, they do not believe at all that domestic animals are involved with COVID-19.

Another tricky thing that people are misinterpreting is that animals can transmit viruses without catching them. Keep in mind, fur is just a surface like any other and can harbor a virus just like a door knob can. That does not mean the animal is infected or has caught the virus itself.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...ov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/animals.html


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

Wild Heart said:


> I just wonder why they need to figure out a human dose? Isn't Ivermectin already used for humans?


Yes, but they aren't trying to find a dose that is safe for human use, they already know that. They're trying to find a dose that is effective against the virus.

I'm not sure how much I believe that a dewormer is capable of killing a virus, but we'll just have to wait and see. In vitro (in labs) is much, much different than in vivo (in live bodies).


----------



## loosie

Thanks for sharing Acadian! Off to the feed store to get some Ivermectin now! ...but in case anyone is worried, I will not be taking it, at least until it is proven safe & they've worked out a safe dose for humans!



tinyliny said:


> my neighbor said that domestic cats are catching Covid. could this be true?


Coronavirus (not Covid-19) is a common group of viruses and cats & dogs can get it(commonly get immunised against it). My guess is she has found this out & assumed it's Covid-19


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Wellllllll, if taste had anything to do with it, I'd say Ivermectin should work a treat! I wasn't thinking when I dewormed horses a while ago and stuck the cap in my mouth, with the yucky side in, and got the full flavor treatment. Just that tiny drop on my tongue made me wish I was dying, just to get away from the flavor!

PS. We already do have a dose for humans but it's for oral (pill) form, it's what's prescribed for pin worms and such. I think they are trying to work out what is safe (or is it even safe) to inject in humans and if so, is it enough to be effective against the virus.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

OMG! I don't usually have to sit on my hands to keep from writing the media but seriously? Headline from today, 

"Both COVID-19 cases & deaths under-reported in Oklahoma". 


I want to write, "No S......YA THINK?"! You have to be able to test in order to know if it's Covid or something else. Until this week, there were maybe 3,000 tests in the whole darn state. They could have blown through those in a day and still had no idea.


----------



## tinyliny

loosie said:


> Um... thanks for that... rather unpleasant thought picture! :lol:





you don't like steamed clams?


----------



## tinyliny

Aprilswissmiss said:


> Not really. Of course, we do not know enough about COVID-19 in general to make such bold assumptions either way right this second. The CDC (which in my opinion is one of the only truly scientifically trusted places to find information like this) says there is no evidence that cats or dogs are capable of catching the virus.
> 
> Basically, people continue to confuse "coronaviruses" (which is an entire class of viruses) with COVID-19 in particular. Some coronaviruses are caught and transmitted by animals. But right now, they do not believe at all that domestic animals are involved with COVID-19.
> 
> Another tricky thing that people are misinterpreting is that animals can transmit viruses without catching them. Keep in mind, fur is just a surface like any other and can harbor a virus just like a door knob can. That does not mean the animal is infected or has caught the virus itself.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...ov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/animals.html





I do know that a corona virus is a 'type' of virus, . . like a rhino virus. But, I had never heard that domestic cats were subject to such. first for me. I'm pretty sure that no one is even considering, much less worrying, that it is back passed from cats to humans. 

I do, however, refrain from petting the neighbor's cat in case i were to pass the virus from my hands . . . to the neighbor's petting hands. via the cat.


----------



## ApuetsoT

They're talking about this cat


https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-animals-pets-coronavirus-covid19


Cat in Belgium caught covid19 from it's owner.


----------



## RegalCharm

aubie said:


> China has some very misleading numbers. Like death at over 3,000 . Half as much than us with 3 times the population. But other things are starting to tell the tale. ONE funeral home got 2 orders of urns of 5,000 in one week. They have lost 21 million cell phone customers this year. Yes a lot due to people losing work but still


 @aubie watch the _60 minutes Australia_ video China's Covid 19 cover up. the link is huge so just google the show. I have seen some articles from people who are still in touch with a few people who will talk openly and what the ones in China are saying the death toll is nearly 40,000 people.


----------



## boots

Our governor had a press conference today. He didn't make a "stay at home order" but said we needed to continue to about not going out, use good hygiene, and continue social distancing. He expressed frustration at people from other places coming here for vacations like it's some grand extended spring break. My words, not his. He is ordering visitors to self quarantine in place for fourteen days or the length of time they will be here, if less. Apparently, there will be checks. That's a good thing, IMO. 

He compared our less specific rules to states that have "stay in place" orders and yet have multiple pages of exemptions, making the intent ineffective.

He was pretty straight, as public officials in Wyoming tend to be. He expressed frustration that personal protective equipment ordered from FEMA for Wyoming has been diverted to more populous states. 

We're kind of used to it. In ag/western vernacular we are used to being left to "suck the hind teat." A reference to the runt not getting the optimal spot on a sow, so not getting adequate nutrition. We're used to it. Being the state with the lowest population. 

Personally, working on a hospital, I use a mask until it's really soiled. We sometimes share protective gowns. Wait. We always share gowns. 

But, as always, we adapt, help each other, and will come out the other side being okay 

https://trib.com/news/state-and-reg...Q_O2t99-B0k039LEPhXbCATGW0-gL2MRnR4ZpZyY4OA-4


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

ApuetsoT said:


> They're talking about this cat
> 
> 
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-animals-pets-coronavirus-covid19
> 
> 
> Cat in Belgium caught covid19 from it's owner.


I don't believe they have enough evidence there to say it's definitely COVID-19 that caused the illness. From the article: "The samples were collected and sent to the lab by the owner, and a veterinarian has yet to examine the cat." The owner was positive. The samples were not blood, they were feces and vomit. Very easy things to pick up virus DNA from the owner shedding the virus into the cat's food or from handling of the feces and vomit. There wasn't even a vet to confirm it! It is mostly all guesswork. Definitely not a confirmed case, they haven't even really tested the cat yet: "Once it’s released from quarantine, researchers will run a blood test for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies, which would provide more concrete proof of an infection."

There are so many things that can cause respiratory illness/vomiting/diarrhea in cats. For all they know, the pet sitter could have passed an infection from her own pets onto this cat, and the timeline just happens to match up with the owner's return. Who knows.


----------



## Foxhunter

Cass, my nurse neighbour, says that one person who definitely had Clovid 19 was tested and it came back negative so tests are not infallible. 

My cousin's son who has/had it was really sick last weekend, a lot better on the Monday then it hit him again. Thursday he was feeling a lot better and (fingers crossed) has continued to improve.


----------



## Spanish Rider

RE: cats, coronavirus, humans

My son's kitten died of FIP in June. Feline infectious peritonitis is caused by a mutated feline coronavirus and is 100% fatal.

Even after caring for, sleeping with and cleaning up after the kitten, why did we not get sick? Because we did not eat him.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Really unfortunate news today:

A shipment of medical supplies (mainly ventilators) bought from China by the Spanish Government has been seized by the Turkish government when the plane landed to re-fuel in Turkey. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lators-medical-equipment-seized-a9447216.html

Also, last week France confiscated truckloads of medical supplies headed to Spain and Italy. https://www.fr24news.com/a/2020/04/...asks-gloves-intended-for-spain-and-italy.html


If we are receiving no help from the European Community, and even our NATO allies are robbing us, how is this ever going to stop?


----------



## Foxhunter

Boredom can lead to Internet fame!


----------



## Spanish Rider

Thought this was important for those of you with N95 mask shortages.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> Really unfortunate news today:
> 
> A shipment of medical supplies (mainly ventilators) bought from China by the Spanish Government has been seized by the Turkish government when the plane landed to re-fuel in Turkey. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lators-medical-equipment-seized-a9447216.html
> 
> Also, last week France confiscated truckloads of medical supplies headed to Spain and Italy. https://www.fr24news.com/a/2020/04/...asks-gloves-intended-for-spain-and-italy.html
> 
> 
> If we are receiving no help from the European Community, and even our NATO allies are robbing us, how is this ever going to stop?


Our President has been complaining for about a week that that market has turned into a mess and that other countries have been outbidding us for respirators which were already paid for. He also said that some countries were sending people with suitcases full of cash and that sellers aren’t shying away from selling already sold and paid for stock to a higher cash bidder and just returning the money to the original buyer. I think Canada and France confirmed that the planes headed their way were rerouted midair into the States and that signed contracts have become useless because sellers were refusing to sign contracts with penalties.

We got a lot of help from China and now Russia. Most of the stock we actually paid for but money seems to be irrelevant at the moment.


----------



## Wild Heart

Aprilswissmiss said:


> Yes, but they aren't trying to find a dose that is safe for human use, they already know that. They're trying to find a dose that is effective against the virus.
> 
> I'm not sure how much I believe that a dewormer is capable of killing a virus, but we'll just have to wait and see. In vitro (in labs) is much, much different than in vivo (in live bodies).


Ah, that would make sense. 

I was just assuming they already found an effective dose since the articles I was reading said that it was killing cells within 48 hours. However, I missed the *"in vitro"* part of the article. -facepalm- 

Goes to show one shouldn't be reading scientific articles late in the night!


----------



## horselovinguy

What people here are making comments about in regards to those precious masks...
No one buys directly from a manufacturer but from a supplier, the middleman.
All who purchase know who the manufacturer is as products are fully labeled.

The middleman is $$ motivated....
Money talks, forget the contracts....honestly at this moment in time the masks are gold and those suppliers are far from stupid to realize they can charge and get far more than what a contract states...
Do they have scruples....no, of course not. Not now, not today when the need is so great.
No country is without motivation to take anothers shipment to help their citizens...

I read that the 3M corporation who is one of the largest manufacturers of the masks having factories in the US and others in China.
This country had placed a order for masks...order was fulfilled, was being shipped...
My understanding though is the company was going to ship an order of masks out of this country to China, and China was shipping from their factory to us costing us days, time lost...so the shipment en-route to transport to get it overseas was intercepted...shipment of masks on it taken that were already paid for from the same supplier.
And that the US shipment of hundreds of thousands of masks in China were then able to be shipped to other nations immediately since they were already made and awaiting deployment to destinations from China.
The president of this nation put into effect a seldom used order that manufacturing facilities in this nation must fill our orders here first and not ship out to another country items needed during a crisis situation. 
It makes sense to me...yes, I live here. 
But,...what sense is there to shipping things desperately needed across the world to make them need returned to their manufacturing origin.. :shrug:
What I see is this now stipulation being demanded by my country may allow other nations to receive their goods/orders faster since there is no reason for goods to be shipped here to their to their and then their again...
I'm thinking all nations benefit from some of that "hi-jacking" if what I've read is truthful, accurate and tells the whole truth.
_Every nation is desperate for supplies_, for help, for answers and will resort to whatever means is needed to obtain goods..._let us not be fooled about that._
It _*is*_ what media outlet you read, and how the "story twist" is applied and that is honestly said from me.
In this country we have many newspapers printed yet. 
Many editions of the exact same paper but what makes each "special" is that the front-page story changes, is tweaked to fill the need of that areas demographic majority and political affiliation strengths. 
I've seen this for fact myself...:frown_color:
So, a twisting of truths unfolds....
Why should world matters be different when the media in all forms no longer represent facts, but many slanted "truths" as they want us to believe as the facts...:neutral:
Journalism appears a lost art for "fact-based truthful news-reporting"...

_hlg._
_this written above is *my opinion*
_


----------



## RegalCharm

Here is another kick in the pants. My DIL had to be tested last Saturday along with her co-worker who was showing signs of the virus. So Wednesday the Co-workers results came back negative. DIL called to see if her results were back,
THEY LOST The Test. Who ever DIL talked to said some were shipped to California some to other places to develop them. WTH. So as of right now she doesn't know anything. And to add they told her to call her DR. for the results, her Dr. told her she had to call the place that actually did the test and then she was given a third number to call and still is in the dark.

Ohio has some huge medical hospitals that do all sorts of stuff. Pittsburgh Pa has at least 4 huge hospitals and medical complexes along with 2 huge VA hospitals and Then there is WV U medical center in Morgantown. And they have to ship these test to California and elsewhere. Un-freaking believable

.


----------



## tinyliny

Spanish Rider said:


> RE: cats, coronavirus, humans
> 
> My son's kitten died of FIP in June. Feline infectious peritonitis is caused by a mutated feline coronavirus and is 100% fatal.
> 
> Even after caring for, sleeping with and cleaning up after the kitten, why did we not get sick? *Because we did not eat him*.



I dunno, you could be missing out on quite the delicacy. Some people in China eat kittens. I've seen it with my own eyes. (the kittens awaiting their fate). this was back in 1987, in Guangjou. But, I think it is still done.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

1159 cases and 42 dead, up from 988 & 38 yesterday.


----------



## Caledonian

We have 3345 cases and 218 deaths. In total, 20,798 people tested. 


Greater Glasgow and Clyde still has the most cases at 851. 

Despite restrictions and warnings about travelling to the remote Orkney islands and Na h-Eileanan Siar to avoid catching the virus, they now have cases.


----------



## Foxhunter

I know this is a serious matter but here is another YouTube insight.


----------



## Acadianartist

horselovinguy said:


> What people here are making comments about in regards to those precious masks...
> No one buys directly from a manufacturer but from a supplier, the middleman.
> All who purchase know who the manufacturer is as products are fully labeled.
> 
> The middleman is $$ motivated....
> Money talks, forget the contracts....honestly at this moment in time the masks are gold and those suppliers are far from stupid to realize they can charge and get far more than what a contract states...
> Do they have scruples....no, of course not. Not now, not today when the need is so great.
> No country is without motivation to take anothers shipment to help their citizens...
> 
> I read that the 3M corporation who is one of the largest manufacturers of the masks having factories in the US and others in China.
> This country had placed a order for masks...order was fulfilled, was being shipped...
> My understanding though is the company was going to ship an order of masks out of this country to China, and China was shipping from their factory to us costing us days, time lost...so the shipment en-route to transport to get it overseas was intercepted...shipment of masks on it taken that were already paid for from the same supplier.
> And that the US shipment of hundreds of thousands of masks in China were then able to be shipped to other nations immediately since they were already made and awaiting deployment to destinations from China.
> The president of this nation put into effect a seldom used order that manufacturing facilities in this nation must fill our orders here first and not ship out to another country items needed during a crisis situation.
> It makes sense to me...yes, I live here.
> But,...what sense is there to shipping things desperately needed across the world to make them need returned to their manufacturing origin.. :shrug:
> What I see is this now stipulation being demanded by my country may allow other nations to receive their goods/orders faster since there is no reason for goods to be shipped here to their to their and then their again...
> I'm thinking all nations benefit from some of that "hi-jacking" if what I've read is truthful, accurate and tells the whole truth.
> _Every nation is desperate for supplies_, for help, for answers and will resort to whatever means is needed to obtain goods..._let us not be fooled about that._
> It _*is*_ what media outlet you read, and how the "story twist" is applied and that is honestly said from me.
> In this country we have many newspapers printed yet.
> Many editions of the exact same paper but what makes each "special" is that the front-page story changes, is tweaked to fill the need of that areas demographic majority and political affiliation strengths.
> I've seen this for fact myself...:frown_color:
> So, a twisting of truths unfolds....
> Why should world matters be different when the media in all forms no longer represent facts, but many slanted "truths" as they want us to believe as the facts...:neutral:
> Journalism appears a lost art for "fact-based truthful news-reporting"...
> 
> _hlg._
> _this written above is *my opinion*
> _


Well, this is what Canadians have been reading for a few days now. 

https://nationalpost.com/news/world...-told-it-to-stop-sending-face-masks-to-canada

https://www.ohscanada.com/breaking-trump-orders-3m-stop-sending-n95-masks-canada/

https://globalnews.ca/news/6772979/coronavirus-3m-n95-respirators-trump-canada/

Let us try to remember that this is a global crisis. We will only overcome it by working together.


----------



## tinyliny

Yes, that emphasizes how much value it is to hear from others here, from other countries, with their first hand accounts. Bravo!


----------



## horselovinguy

All for hearing what others countries and areas of the world are hearing...but also as explained in more detail below...there are 2 sides to every story/article and truth somewhere in between..
Acadian since I was typing, editing myself and just now posting a response to what you wanted to enlighten us/me to what you are hearing...

As I've said before, journalism puts a slant/twist to all stories to benefit the audience it serves...
Is your reference true...quite possibly.
Your articles referenced also stated that 3M is *not* stopping shipments to other nations either regardless of what was asked by the US President.
The articles I found say the bulk of masks_ are made in China_ at 2 million a day, of which 600,000 are N95 certified as of now....ramping up their systems is being done as fast as possible to meet unprecedented demands.

A company the size of 3M has factories in many countries around the world to supply the needs of the world making more than just N95 masks.
3M is also not the only supplier of those goods either but may be best known for many products they produce.
Honeywell is also producing those needed masks and has been for years as well as medical supplies of all types.
When I worked in the hospitals Honeywell was who supplied our specialty masks for infection/isolation severe cases along with 3M. Both huge corporations manufacturing for medical needs was just one part of their conglomerate of industry..

I would hope that what those articles you shared make comment on is not happening the way it sounds...
Many manufacturers here in the states are changing directions and stepping up to medical needs making needed equipment... from fashion designers to companies who did car wraps of graphics, car manufacturers and hundreds of things in between all are changing to help the needs of the world during this crisis...they are all working hard to contribute something to make a difference.
I think we are also seeing "pass the buck and blame another" for not having foresight to prepare when news started to come out of this happening....burying your head in the sand is what many nations did, fact and truth.
All governments in the world got caught with their pants down, us here and Canada did too.
I'm not saying what you linked is not accurate, but I also have not seen where Canadian companies are revamping and coming together yet such as this nation has either...or they are and just no commenting, no articles are on the internet did I find when I did google "who makes covid19 masks and where are the factories located"...there is no mention of anything maybe because our ISP is US produced...:shrug:
What I did find is... there _is_ controversy in these articles about difficulty in finding raw goods needed or not, and how hard or not to then construct those masks...two sides and then the truth somewhere in the mess being told.

There is a lot more to this than what your Prime Minister is suddenly making comment on or our President for that matter...
No one is without shouldering some of the blame...no one though ever imagined such a crisis as this that would take the world by storm leaving no corner untouched by this...
To think only a few short weeks ago this was not even heard of or known about...to this that consumes us and frightens most/some/all to death with what this can do in a few short days...
Here are the articles I wanted to share..._not_ denying what your PM says, but also realizing that according to what is written in those articles the bulk of those specialty masks come from across the sea, not across a land border our nations share.
_https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...ace-masks-but-theyre-surprisingly-hard-to-mak
__ https://www.courier-tribune.com/news/20200328/local-manufacturers-helping-fight-covid-19-virus
_
_hlg._


----------



## gottatrot

This article was very interesting about why death and mortality rates are different around the world.
It seems balanced in explaining how deaths from Covid are being both overestimated and underestimated at the same time. 
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200401-coronavirus-why-death-and-mortality-rates-differ

There was another interesting fact about Italy that I had not heard before.


> Heneghan suspects that one factor at play in Italy’s high figures could be not to do with the virus itself, but with bacteria. The country has the highest numbers of deaths due to antimicrobial resistance in the EU – in fact, a third of all EU deaths from antimicrobial resistance happen in Italy. While antibiotics do precisely nothing to tackle a virus, a viral infection can often open the way for secondary infections or complications like bacterial pneumonia. If that then can’t be treated properly with antibiotics because the bacteria is resistant, then this can be what kills the patient, not the virus itself.
> 
> “This is an incredibly important part of the whole story,” says Heneghan. “And it is particularly prevalent in the elderly.”


This could also become a factor in some other countries with high levels of antibiotic use and resistance such as India.


----------



## Horsef

Conspiracy theories.

I have just become aware that there is prominent theory that 5G mobile network is causing the illness, not a virus. It appears that people have burned down mobile towers in a few cities in the Uk and harassed engineers. I have no idea what confusion of mind produces these connections. (Please correct me if I’m wrong, these people are barely coherent so maybe I misunderstood).

I have also received numerous lizard people, Illuminati, the Queen is an alien and they made the virus type theories from people I know. It pains me to say that all of these have come from horse people in my life. I guess I usually don’t make friends with people who think like that, but horses join all sorts of personalities though our shared interests.

Anyhow, various conspiracy theories existed at best of times in various forms but now they seem to have exploded and some of the people who have sent me these chain letters didn’t appear of feeble mind before the epidemic started. They seemed normal. These theories are so asinine because once a person believes them, they will disregard any other source of information as propaganda. I have to commend one lady who asked me what I thought of a particular theory and, after debating for a while, agreed that it doesn’t make sense.

Btw, my favorite is that the 1%-ers (rich people) rule the world as a cult and they created the virus to rule the world more. What?! Yes, they rule the world, more or less. But how will they rule the world MORE? And how are they making more money from this, seeing that most of their wealth is in stocks and real estate? I guess they are making a killing in toilet paper shares :/

These phenomena need to be taken into account by scientists in future but I have no clue where they would even start with mitigation recommendations.


----------



## loosie

^My Dog Horsef, don't tell me you seriously didn't know that the world's elite & royal families were Silurian lizard people from the centre of the Earth(look 'em up!) and they will be remote controlling people's bodies with the 5G network, in order to reclaim the world back from humans?!


----------



## Horsef

@loosie Just shows you how deep the conspiracy runs - they control the media! I guess I should turn to YouTube for REAL truths. Ah, well, needs musts...

/sarcasm - just in case :hide:


----------



## Acadianartist

Hahaha... thanks for the comic relief @Horsef! Indeed, there will always be some people willing to go to any lengths to explain something that is just a plain old virus. 
@horselovinguy, I certainly don't want to open up a debate on HF, just shared links to various different news sources that are pretty unanimous about what is going on. In any case, we are not short on supplies, since, as I'm sure you know, Canada is not being hit nearly as hard as the US right now. My own province has less than a hundred cases. No deaths. The number of diagnosed cases daily is remaining very low with only about 6 people in hospital in the entire province. Our number of new cases is actually going down, though they expect we will see peak around mid to late April. But at the moment, we are not worried about running out of anything, and people are mostly staying home. I was simply trying to point out that it's important for all countries to work together since this is a global issue, not one that knows any borders.


----------



## horselovinguy

Acadian... I am so glad to hear you have so little happening in your area...
Please _stay safe, stay healthy and stay home_ till this passes...

Me too.._there is no debate here either... _:hug:_cyber hugs are permitted_.
And I totally agree nations need to work together so all get recovery started, infection halted and deaths kept as low as possible.
Those being hit now learn from mistakes and successes of those nations who were hit earlier.
Those nations now recovering send on your now not needed to countries that are just beginning to feel the punch.
_Together as one, we can conquer this...*we will!*_

_The song, *"We are the World"* was fitting when it was composed..._
_Sadly, it is fitting today too..._

_There comes a time
When we heed a certain call
When the world must come together as one
There are people dying
Oh, and it's time to lend a hand to life
The greatest gift of all
We can't go on
Pretending day-by-day
That someone, somewhere soon make a change
We're all a part of God's great big family
And the truth, you know, love is all we need
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day, so let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me
Oh, send them your heart
So they know that someone cares
And their lives will be stronger and free
As God has shown us by turning stones to bread
And so we all must lend a helping hand
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day, so let's start giving
Oh, there's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me
When you're down and out, there seems no hope at all
But if you just believe there's no way we can fall
Well, well, well, well let us realize
Oh, that a change can only come
When we stand together as one, yeah, yeah, yeah
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day, so let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day, so let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and mee
We are the world (are the world)
We are the children (are the children)
We are the ones who'll make a brighter day, so let's start giving (so let's start giving)
There is a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me
Oh, let me hear you!
We are the world (we are the world)
We are the children (said we are the children)
We are the ones who'll make a brighter day so let start giving (so let's start giving)
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me, come on now, let me hear you
We are the world (we are the world)
We are the children (we are the children)
We are the ones who'll make a brighter day so let's start giving (so let's start giving)
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me, yeah
We are the world (we are the world)
We are the children (we are the children)
We are the ones who'll make a brighter day so let's start giving (so let's start giving)
There's a choice we're making
And we're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me
We are the world (are the world)
We are the children (are the children)
We are the ones who'll make a brighter day so let's start giving (so let's start giving)
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me
We are the world, we are the world (are the world)
We are the children, yes sir (are the children)
We are the ones that make a brighter day so let's start giving (so let's start giving)
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day, just you and me, ooh-hoo!
We are the world (dear God) (are the world)
We are the children (are the children)
We are the ones that make a brighter day so let's start giving (all right, can you hear what I'm saying?)
__ There's a choice we're making, we're saving our own lives_
_



_


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Off topic - We need a SNORT emoji and maybe a Spitting Tea emoji for funnies like Horsef & Loosie seem to come up with now and again!


----------



## horselovinguy

Best I could find that was not drug snorting up the nose...
Hope they are acceptable variations... :wink:




















Try as I did I could not find you a emoji of tea snorting laughter...
But did find this...imagination needed for the rest of it.


----------



## Horsef

Here, finely, I found some research comparing overall historical death rates and current situation. It’s grim.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-d...-appears-higher-than-official-figures-suggest


----------



## tinyliny

@horselovinguy


You said that we were caught with our pants down, and nobody could have imagined this happening. Well, plenty of people could have , and DID! Many experts on epidemics, and in particular those caused by a corona virus such as this, had well developed views of what would happen, should one get away from us. (Not be contained quickly). They have all known that it was not a matter of 'if', but a matter of 'when'.


But, governments did not want to spend the necessary money to prepare for something that might not occur in THEIR term of office.


This was not a total surprise. It has happened before. Also, this WILL happen again. 

Could be in 5 years, or in 10, but it will happen again. The scope is the only thing we may have some control over.


----------



## ApuetsoT

Generally, the people talking about lizard people and the Queen being immortal are doing so tongue-in-cheek. It's a meme. The 5G crazies? Yea, those are real unfortunately. I've got a subset those people on my Facebook and it's aggravating to see what they post. They're also the people that think this whole thing is a distraction from some Big Corp plot. (They are also antivax)



Went to the grocery store for the first time since before all this blew up. Store was normal levels of busy. Not allowed to use reusable bags, but no charge for plastic at least. Will have plenty of bags for cat litter, at least. Some people seemed to be taking it seriously, others not so much. The lady in front of me at the checkout was leaning around the plexiglass. A few people had masks and gloves. I've started a system where I have one pair of gloves to wear from my door to car. Then those are taken off and another pair go on for where ever I am(barn, store, ect). The come off when I get back to the car and are left on the floor for 3-4 days. I have 3 pairs I rotate through, so the amount of time between uses is usually 7+days. Went to the gas station, feed store, and grocery store yesterday, so need to find another pair of gloves for the barn today.



Fresh fruits and veggies were well stocked. Dairy and eggs were well stocked. Didn't need a tonne of other non-perishables as I tend to keep those fairly well stocked in my cupboards.



All the cheap frozen vegetables were cleared out. I had to buy two bags of the expensive small bags. White vinegar was in short supply, only small bottles left. Almost no noodles in the Asian food isle, but it's been like that for months now. Almost no dish soap, I had to buy the expensive, natural kind. Rest of the cleaning isle was pretty bare. Walked down one isle that was completely empty, thought to myself that this must be the isle for seasonal items. Then I saw two lone packs of TP. Didn't check the rice or flour/baking supplies.


----------



## horselovinguy

ApuetsoT....


Might I suggest a bleach/water solution to spritz your shoes/footwear with top and bottom/soles...

The virus has been found days later on shoes...


Other than that sounds you are making some wiser choices...
And a mask to protect you further for when in the store to further protect you from them...
Need not be N95, just something that will better filter out icks from your respiratory system...
I read somewhere that a disposable coffee filter inserted inside a thin cloth mask will offer greater protection than many realize from airborne germs...
_ hlg..._


----------



## Acadianartist

tinyliny said:


> @*horselovinguy*
> 
> 
> You said that we were caught with our pants down, and nobody could have imagined this happening. Well, plenty of people could have , and DID! Many experts on epidemics, and in particular those caused by a corona virus such as this, had well developed views of what would happen, should one get away from us. (Not be contained quickly). They have all known that it was not a matter of 'if', but a matter of 'when'.
> 
> 
> But, governments did not want to spend the necessary money to prepare for something that might not occur in THEIR term of office.
> 
> 
> This was not a total surprise. It has happened before. Also, this WILL happen again.
> 
> Could be in 5 years, or in 10, but it will happen again. The scope is the only thing we may have some control over.


You're 100% right tiny. Couldn't agree with you more. But what adds to the complexity of the situation is that N95 masks have an expiry date so stockpiling them is really not a good idea - at least not if you don't think you'll need millions of mask in the next 5 years. 

And while I completely agree that many have not prepared adequately, it's difficult to build a hospital system capable of handling something like this, especially for poorer countries, and even for richer countries with a very large population like the US. Before this all started, our own province had just gone through a brief scandal after our premier announced he was going to close 6 small ERs in rural areas. People were in a big uproar over it - thank goodness, and he had to back down. This was way before the pandemic was even in its early phase in China. Can you imagine if he had closed those hospitals? Mind you, our cases are still really minimal, but each of those ERs has medical supplies that can now be re-routed to bigger hospitals that may need them. Just an example of a decision motivated by saving money (although the premier said it wasn't) that could have lead to potential disaster if we had closed those ERs and if we had been hit harder.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

horselovinguy said:


> Best I could find that was not drug snorting up the nose...
> Hope they are acceptable variations... :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try as I did I could not find you a emoji of tea snorting laughter...
> But did find this...imagination needed for the rest of it.


Thanks HLG, those are cute! I was thinking more along the lines of when you just took a big old gulp of iced tea and you read or someone says something funny and it makes you laugh and spit your tea all over your monitor.


----------



## loosie

tinyliny said:


> You said that we were caught with our pants down, and nobody could have imagined ...
> They have all known that it was not a matter of 'if', but a matter of 'when'. ...
> But, governments did not want to spend the necessary money to prepare for something that might not occur in THEIR term of office.


This, I feel, is the scariest by far fact. Not about the Coronavirus as such, but people's mentality. 

That the vast majority of people DO seem to just trust that 'someone' is looking after it, that 'someone' will do something about it. Totally forgetting/ignoring that WE ARE ALL 'SOMEONE'. People... Sheeple... Will just wait, blindly like lambs, head in the sand, until 'suddenly' it's on us, can no longer be ignored, before bleating out their surprise & fear that whatever is actually happening/has happened.

That the 'powers that be' are, in the vast majority of places, in it more so, if not totally, for themselves & their pockets & egos, rather than the good of all. 

THAT is what terrifies me most about my selfish decision to have kids, to bring them into this world. Even at this 'late hour' I do not believe that we _cannot_ fix this mess of a world we have made it, but I hold little hope that we WILL... And unfortunately, the happenings & noises regarding this virus have only reinforced that idea.


----------



## loosie

ApuetsoT said:


> The 5G crazies? Yea, those are real unfortunately.


Not talking all the weirdy weirdo stuff, but the info on health probs from 5g appears to be well studied, from what I've seen. But as usual, those selling it have helped any truths that might harm their business, get swept under the rug, lumped together with the crazy stuff. 'We' will not take notice of that until it's blatently obvious... 



> Not allowed to use reusable bags, but no charge for plastic at least. Will have plenty of bags for cat litter, at least.


How silly is that, that you can't use your own bags?? But everyone is happily touching all the stuff that everyone else has touched...

And kitty litter.... Can't believe how aweful that stuff is, even without it being wrapped in plastic - don't know how long before we moved here it was dumped(don't think last tenants had a cat) but there's an area down the back where someone dumped it, which is still clean of any grass or weeds & we have been here nearly 3 years now. 

I'd suggest cat people look into biodegradable alternatives & wrapping in newspaper is a far better option than plastic.



> Almost no dish soap, I had to buy the expensive, natural kind.


Oh well, think of all the frogs, fish, bugs etc you will be saving.


----------



## ApuetsoT

loosie said:


> Not talking all the weirdy weirdo stuff, but the info on health probs from 5g appears to be well studied, from what I've seen. But as usual, those selling it have helped any truths that might harm their business, get swept under the rug, lumped together with the crazy stuff. 'We' will not take notice of that until it's blatently obvious...
> 
> How silly is that, that you can't use your own bags?? But everyone is happily touching all the stuff that everyone else has touched...
> 
> And kitty litter.... Can't believe how aweful that stuff is, even without it being wrapped in plastic - don't know how long before we moved here it was dumped(don't think last tenants had a cat) but there's an area down the back where someone dumped it, which is still clean of any grass or weeds & we have been here nearly 3 years now.
> 
> I'd suggest cat people look into biodegradable alternatives & wrapping in newspaper is a far better option than plastic.
> 
> Oh well, think of all the frogs, fish, bugs etc you will be saving.



The guy doing my bagging ended up using 10 plastic bags for the same amount of groceries that would fit into my two reusable bags. He put my bottle of vinegar into it's own bag??? It's nuts. I'd be happy enough to bag my own groceries but it's their policy now.



My cat's litter is corn based, not the rock type that people usually use. The dish soap I bought before is just as environmentally friendly, but it costs a third of the price. The fancy natural stuff is just marked up because people buy it to feel good. Same organic, non-gmo...




Back to cats and Covid, a tiger has been confirmed to have it:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00984-8
https://apnews.com/0f47b8e4f883579712599690e1752c09


----------



## tinyliny

I actually think that this experience will bring about new ways to make vaccines that target viruses. There has been a lot of work on this recently. one that I read about was using measles vaccines, which are already manufactured in huge quantities, and somehow modifying them to match the corona virus. Instead of starting from scratch. Apparently , it is a close enough match to help the body recognize the pathogen when one comes into contact with the real thing.


Also, the fact that the 'cytokine storm', the situation where the body's own defense sytem goes into lethal overdrive, will bring about new discoveries in how to deal with many other illnesses that are related to self-destructive immune system responses.


There are going to be a lot of valuable discoveries that come from this.


----------



## loosie

Apuetsot, wrote that on my phone, when I'd just woken up(well not quite...) & also as it's harder to type with one finger, I tend to... conserve words. So, re-reading, I sounded rather... righteous & I apologise for that. I should have made it clear that I was saying what I did for people to think about what they do & accept, not that you personally necessarily weren't already... 



ApuetsoT said:


> It's nuts. I'd be happy enough to bag my own groceries but it's their policy now.


Surely they have reusable or biodegradable bags available though? If not, I'd be sure to tell management(not just the checkout 'chick') that I will only be shopping there in future if there are absolutely no alternatives for me to go to, because of this lack of care & rationality.



> My cat's litter is corn based, not the rock type that people usually use.


So all the more reason not to wrap it in plastic - instead, wrap it in paper & chuck it in the garden & your plants will love it! Of course, it's very difficult to avoid plastic in all situations, but if you recycle the plastic where possible, and avoid wrapping biodegradable stuff in it, that helps.


----------



## egrogan

@loosie, our state actually ordered groceries to stop allowing people to bring their own reusable bags. I haven’t had a plastic bag from a grocery store in goodness knows how many years, and like @ApuetsoT, I came home from shopping with probably a dozen plastic bags holding what I usually fit in one large canvas bag  We also weren’t allowed to bag on our own. I appreciate the safety precautions at the store we went to, where everything was very orderly, but that was tough to swallow. Fortunately won’t need a “big shop” for a bit and our local general store was reusing cardboard boxes to pack.

Another problem is that some stores have stopped accepting glass milk bottles back and the local dairies rely on those returns to keep bottling. Have read a couple of stories that some dairies are going to have to start dumping milk since they can’t afford new bottles nor get them quickly enough to make up for all that aren’t being returned :sad:


----------



## Acadianartist

loosie said:


> Surely they have reusable or biodegradable bags available though? If not, I'd be sure to tell management(not just the checkout 'chick') that I will only be shopping there in future if there are absolutely no alternatives for me to go to, because of this lack of care & rationality.


My husband did the groceries on Friday and he could still use reusable bags, but had to bag everything himself which is not a big deal. But all recycling has stopped here. We were told that we can put out our recyclables, but they won't sort them, they'll just dump them in landfills like regular garbage. So all we can do is use as little plastic as possible (something we were already doing, but even so, our recycling bins were always full). Coffee shops (they are still open for drive-through) are also refusing to refill coffee mugs and will only give you coffee in disposable cups. Not a problem for us - we have always made our own coffee at home every morning, but a lot of people are still going to those places so that means lots of waste. 

I'd love to think humanity will learn a lesson from this, but I highly doubt it. We may learn not to waste as much because our economies are crashing and we have no more disposable income. But a lot of efforts to recycle are completely lost now. At least pollution is at an all-time low! I took my car to go to work so I could retrieve my computer and a few other items I needed to continue to work from home (that was a complicated, high-security affair), but I hadn't taken it out of the garage in 3 weeks! I normally put about 70 kms a day on my car. Even my husband, who is still driving to work every day, says he's spending way less gas because he doesn't have stops along the way, doesn't take our son to football practice, etc.


----------



## SilverMaple

Saw some info where some doctors in New York are saying COVID-19 isn't acting like a SARS virus/pneumonia like they were told, but instead reminds them of severe altitude sickness-- like being dropped on Mt Everest from sea-level. They are questioning the standard pressures and settings on the ventilators as they are now being used as perhaps contributing to the fatality rate, and looking for alternatives or lower pressure settings since the ventilator outcome is so poor and the cases they are seeing are not matching what is 'supposed to happen' based on other Acute Respiratory Disease protocols. It's an interesting theory.


----------



## ApuetsoT

^^ I read an article the other day in a theory about how it was affecting the red blood cells ability to transport oxygen. I'll have to go back and try to find it and read again.


----------



## tinyliny

SilverMaple said:


> Saw some info where some doctors in New York are saying COVID-19 isn't acting like a SARS virus/pneumonia like they were told, but instead reminds them of severe altitude sickness-- like being dropped on Mt Everest from sea-level. They are questioning the standard pressures and settings on the ventilators as they are now being used as perhaps contributing to the fatality rate, and looking for alternatives or lower pressure settings since the ventilator outcome is so poor and the cases they are seeing are not matching what is 'supposed to happen' based on other Acute Respiratory Disease protocols. It's an interesting theory.


 @SilverMaple I saw that, too! could you find and post a link to that video? This is fascinating.


----------



## boots

SilverMaple said:


> Saw some info where some doctors in New York are saying COVID-19 isn't acting like a SARS virus/pneumonia like they were told, but instead reminds them of severe altitude sickness-- like being dropped on Mt Everest from sea-level. They are questioning the standard pressures and settings on the ventilators as they are now being used as perhaps contributing to the fatality rate, and looking for alternatives or lower pressure settings since the ventilator outcome is so poor and the cases they are seeing are not matching what is 'supposed to happen' based on other Acute Respiratory Disease protocols. It's an interesting theory.


I've been getting info that says that, too.

A positive for us in the Rocky Mountain region of the US. We deal with that all tourist season long.


----------



## Horsef

I read on Reddit (not exactly a hotbed of fact checking but anyhow) that some doctors and nurses in the States are getting their salaries cut because hospitals are loosing money.

Could that be true? 

If so - WHAT?!


----------



## gottatrot

Horsef said:


> I read on Reddit (not exactly a hotbed of fact checking but anyhow) that some doctors and nurses in the States are getting their salaries cut because hospitals are loosing money.
> 
> Could that be true?
> 
> If so - WHAT?!


Yes, there are a lot of things that are not going on right now. Routine clinic visits, check ups, elective surgeries, etc. For every emergency surgery there are many other surgeries that are cosmetic or not urgent, and those are not being done. So they don't necessarily need several crews of people to perform those surgeries, only enough to take care of emergencies. There is a small hospital in our area that has laid off a lot of people, mostly office staff and "non-essential" people. 

I work for a large, several state health care system and they have been keeping everyone working. Some of the OR crews have been enlisted to check people's temperatures in the entrances, and other staff are answering phones, or cross training to other areas where they don't normally work. Unfortunately, being a doctor or a nurse does not mean you are qualified or trained to be pulled to take care of Covid patients. For example, a doctor who has worked at a podiatry clinic for twenty years is not going to be able to take care of ICU patients. A nurse who works at a cosmetology clinic can't walk onto a medical floor and begin transfusing blood. Some of these people will have reduced work while their normal patients are staying home and not visiting their practices.


----------



## Spanish Rider

Horsef said:


> Here, finely, I found some research comparing overall historical death rates and current situation. It’s grim.
> 
> https://www.economist.com/graphic-d...-appears-higher-than-official-figures-suggest


 @Horsef , thank you very, very much for this article. It actually focuses on my province (Castilla-LaMancha) and discusses the under-reporting in more rural areas that do not have the same testing/hospitalization capabilities as the big cities. This is an important factor to consider during the spread of the disease from metropolitan to rural areas.

As you can see from the map illustration, Castilla-LaMancha (CLM) is next to Madrid. We have a high-speed train that goes from Toledo (our capital) to downtown Madrid in 26 minutes, so there are many commuters here.

But the more significant data are seen in the table below, which shows the discrepancies between average deaths, COVID19 deaths and excess deaths not attributed to COVID19. These are deaths at home, in nursing homes and in rural areas that have no testing. 

So, we can safely assume that our death rate in CLM is more than double what is actually being reported, or even more since these data are from March 15-March 24 (which is when things were just getting started here).

Yesterday, I read an interview with a GP from a rural area, and they are calculating that family doctors have been treating some 500,000 patients with C-19 who have not required hospitalization and are therefore not being accounted for by the government (reporting 130,000+ cases today). That would keep in line with the original reports from Wuhan of 20% requiring hospitalization.


----------



## gottatrot

There's another real concern that many people have, which is that so many nursing homes and care facilities in the U.S. do not give a high level of care. Many are very understaffed. The care facilities are not allowing any visitors to prevent the virus spreading, but there are many elderly people whose families are the ones who keep them alive rather than the staff. For facilities that are understaffed, without family a very elderly person may not eat, drink adequately, or get out of bed, causing them to rapidly deteriorate. This is especially true in the assisted living category where people are supposedly more independent, but in reality their family are the ones who make sure they stay healthy. For someone in their nineties, several days of dehydration or missed medications can mean a fall and fracture leading to pneumonia, sepsis and death. We may be preventing these people from dying of Covid, but it many could die from being isolated from their families instead.

The CDC has reported that pneumonia deaths not related to flu have increased sharply since early February. They are saying these may be related to undiagnosed Covid, but I believe some of these will be from neglect due to lack of visits from family in care facilities.


----------



## Horsef

gottatrot said:


> Yes, there are a lot of things that are not going on right now. Routine clinic visits, check ups, elective surgeries, etc. For every emergency surgery there are many other surgeries that are cosmetic or not urgent, and those are not being done. So they don't necessarily need several crews of people to perform those surgeries, only enough to take care of emergencies. There is a small hospital in our area that has laid off a lot of people, mostly office staff and "non-essential" people.
> 
> I work for a large, several state health care system and they have been keeping everyone working. Some of the OR crews have been enlisted to check people's temperatures in the entrances, and other staff are answering phones, or cross training to other areas where they don't normally work. Unfortunately, being a doctor or a nurse does not mean you are qualified or trained to be pulled to take care of Covid patients. For example, a doctor who has worked at a podiatry clinic for twenty years is not going to be able to take care of ICU patients. A nurse who works at a cosmetology clinic can't walk onto a medical floor and begin transfusing blood. Some of these people will have reduced work while their normal patients are staying home and not visiting their practices.


Definitely, but I would guess it's a good sign. If they run out of specialized staff, I am sure they will start pulling all doctors and nurses, and even vets - better than than nothing. I guess. Our guys locally have dedicated Covid hospitals which include all specialties, just in case someone with Covid has other issues.

My mum just had a call from her rheumatologist. She just phoned my mum to check up on her so that's nice. I guess they don't have much to do at the moment.

I went to the store today, after 11 days. It was fully stocked, including alcohol, masks, gloves and toilet paper so I was impressed. This is in Serbia. My very good friend lives in London and he says that there is still no toilet paper and he couldn't buy a lot of things he wanted. I am still shaking my head at the toilet paper craze.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> @Horsef , thank you very, very much for this article. It actually focuses on my province (Castilla-LaMancha) and discusses the under-reporting in more rural areas that do not have the same testing/hospitalization capabilities as the big cities. This is an important factor to consider during the spread of the disease from metropolitan to rural areas.
> 
> As you can see from the map illustration, Castilla-LaMancha (CLM) is next to Madrid. We have a high-speed train that goes from Toledo (our capital) to downtown Madrid in 26 minutes, so there are many commuters here.
> 
> But the more significant data are seen in the table below, which shows the discrepancies between average deaths, COVID19 deaths and excess deaths not attributed to COVID19. These are deaths at home, in nursing homes and in rural areas that have no testing.
> 
> So, we can safely assume that our death rate in CLM is more than double what is actually being reported, or even more since these data are from March 15-March 24 (which is when things were just getting started here).
> 
> Yesterday, I read an interview with a GP from a rural area, and they are calculating that family doctors have been treating some 500,000 patients with C-19 who have not required hospitalization and are therefore not being accounted for by the government (reporting 130,000+ cases today). That would keep in line with the original reports from Wuhan of 20% requiring hospitalization.


Yes, it's exactly why I was after this type of report. Numbers coming out of hospitals can be very misleading. The Covid deaths could either be under-reported, over-reported, or even both at the same time. Comparing to baseline makes most sense to me. 

On a different note, I am rather amazed that Sweden was brave enough to base their decision based on numbers coming out of China. No offence meant, but there should have been a healthy dose of suspicion that those numbers were censored. Not saying they were, but in decision making such suspicions should be taken into account heavily. I hope Sweden pulls through alright.


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## Horsef

We are having a really strange situation that a sizable percentage of cardio patients are coming into a non-Covid hospital without any symptoms (they are checked and tested as they come in) who are showing positive results. One patient is still testing negative even though he developed symptoms. They ran a few tests, all negative. They decided to do an X Ray and his lungs are riddled with those ground glass shadows. Really strange. This only happened at the cardio hospital (for now) so maybe it has something to do with hypertension. Cardio patients are more than likely to have hypertension and take medication for it. Doctors and nurses did get infected, unfortunately. I wish this virus would just pack it up and quit already. Blergh.


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## Acadianartist

Horsef said:


> We are having a really strange situation that a sizable percentage of cardio patients are coming into a non-Covid hospital without any symptoms (they are checked and tested as they come in) who are showing positive results. One patient is still testing negative even though he developed symptoms. They ran a few tests, all negative. They decided to do an X Ray and his lungs are riddled with those ground glass shadows. Really strange. This only happened at the cardio hospital (for now) so maybe it has something to do with hypertension. Cardio patients are more than likely to have hypertension and take medication for it. Doctors and nurses did get infected, unfortunately. I wish this virus would just pack it up and quit already. Blergh.


There is so much we still don't know about this virus! 

To my great relief, I've finally stopped coughing. It was very weird, and my husband and I wonder if I had it (like everyone who has had a "bug" lately I'm sure). I was getting a fluttery, ticklish feeling in my chest, then I would cough. Not like anything I've ever experienced before, very hard to describe. Like bubbles coming up my throat. First I thought I was getting heart palpitations, but I would check my heart rate and it was normal, no fluttering there. I had been coughing since September, as had my daughter, but this was different and I was definitely a lot worse for a few days, though I never had fever. I did feel very tired, and napped a lot. I didn't think I was short of breath, but found my regular yoga routine too exhausting and couldn't do as much. Now my energy levels are back to normal, thankfully. I wonder how many of us are asymptomatic, and whether it means we're immune. It would be nice to know, but it wouldn't change anything since I have been strictly following self-isolation rules for 3 weeks now. 

Still, are some of us developing immunity? Can we hope for some level of herd immunity moving forward? And are we really sure we can't get it again (I have read reports of this, telling of people actually getting it a lot worse the second time because the immune response is stronger, like an allergy)? So many questions.


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## SilverMaple

Yes, staff at hospitals and clinics across the US are being furloughed, laid off, or have their hours cut. Hospitals are a for-profit entity here, and without the elective surgeries, etc. they aren't making any money. Regular clinic visits, ER visits, and more are not happening as patients elect to stay home rather than risk a visit to the hospital. Local ER doctors and staff are going entire shifts without seeing even one patient. Even worse, most hospitals are leaving their staff on the schedule, just not assigning hours, so they don't qualify for unemployment, either. Some are assigning staff to other areas, but an OR nurse may never have worked as a floor nurse, and be unable to do it. Specialized doctors and nurses like bariatric, gynecology, or orthopedic staff may be laid off entirely. Others have sent staff home to save precious PPE for when they start getting more covid cases rather than try to purchase more PPE and spend money. CEOs and administrators, however, are not seeing their salaries cut!


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## Horsef

Acadianartist said:


> There is so much we still don't know about this virus!
> 
> To my great relief, I've finally stopped coughing. It was very weird, and my husband and I wonder if I had it (like everyone who has had a "bug" lately I'm sure). I was getting a fluttery, ticklish feeling in my chest, then I would cough. Not like anything I've ever experienced before, very hard to describe. Like bubbles coming up my throat. First I thought I was getting heart palpitations, but I would check my heart rate and it was normal, no fluttering there. I had been coughing since September, as had my daughter, but this was different and I was definitely a lot worse for a few days, though I never had fever. I did feel very tired, and napped a lot. I didn't think I was short of breath, but found my regular yoga routine too exhausting and couldn't do as much. Now my energy levels are back to normal, thankfully. I wonder how many of us are asymptomatic, and whether it means we're immune. It would be nice to know, but it wouldn't change anything since I have been strictly following self-isolation rules for 3 weeks now.
> 
> Still, are some of us developing immunity? Can we hope for some level of herd immunity moving forward? And are we really sure we can't get it again (I have read reports of this, telling of people actually getting it a lot worse the second time because the immune response is stronger, like an allergy)? So many questions.



Good to hear that!

Regarding immunity, our developing story about a cardio hospital infiltrated by Covid patients has a new twist. Out of 67 positive medical personnel, 5 have slight symptoms and 62 are completely symptom free. I am not sure how far back their exposure was but the epidemiologist who talked about the situation looked very lively and twinkly when he talked about the subject. (I am very disappointed at how...inept our journalists are at synthesizing information. The questions at press conferences are mostly stupid, for lack of a better word) I know that Island found that 50% were symptom free in their mass testing.

Side note: I am not sure if epidemiologists becoming household names is hilarious or tragic.


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## Horsef

SilverMaple said:


> Yes, staff at hospitals and clinics across the US are being furloughed, laid off, or have their hours cut. Hospitals are a for-profit entity here, and without the elective surgeries, etc. they aren't making any money. Regular clinic visits, ER visits, and more are not happening as patients elect to stay home rather than risk a visit to the hospital. Local ER doctors and staff are going entire shifts without seeing even one patient. Even worse, most hospitals are leaving their staff on the schedule, just not assigning hours, so they don't qualify for unemployment, either. Some are assigning staff to other areas, but an OR nurse may never have worked as a floor nurse, and be unable to do it. Specialized doctors and nurses like bariatric, gynecology, or orthopedic staff may be laid off entirely. Others have sent staff home to save precious PPE for when they start getting more covid cases rather than try to purchase more PPE and spend money. CEOs and administrators, however, are not seeing their salaries cut!


Not to get political, but you guys need to have a long, hard look at the whole situation. This virus isn't even close to how bad the next one could be. I understand that there are some realities in the US which have created the current medical system and that there are no easy answers.


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## SilverMaple

The real reason for the toilet paper shortage: https://marker.medium.com/what-everyones-getting-wrong-about-the-toilet-paper-shortage-c812e1358fe0

Makes sense.


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## SilverMaple

Horsef said:


> Not to get political, but you guys need to have a long, hard look at the whole situation. This virus isn't even close to how bad the next one could be. I understand that there are some realities in the US which have created the current medical system and that there are no easy answers.


Totally. Everyone knows this, but the people who have to make this happen, aka our government, are so likely to be wrapped up in the medical or pharmaceutical industry profits, that they won't vote for it themselves. Our hospitals are purely profit-driven. Rural areas are increasingly seeing clinics and hospitals close because they have so many people with no insurance or Medicare and Medicaid patients (which hospitals lose money on ) that they can't afford to stay open. To make ends meet, they overcharge those of us WITH insurance, so the insurance companies see rising costs and in turn start charging more for the policies. It's ridiculous. 10 years ago, I ended up in the hospital for an appendectomy, and even with good insurance, ended up owing nearly $12,000. For a simple appendectomy. A friend who was between jobs, thus uninsured, had a heart attack and even though he's now back working, he owes more than $750,000 in medical bills that he will never be able to pay off, but he writes a check to the hospital every month that he can't afford because otherwise they'll send it to collections and he'll lose his home. 

Our system is so broken in the US, but the people who could fix it profit off of it as it is, so it's not likely to happen. The other argument is that without the incentive of profit, what is the likelihood that we could pay top doctors and nurses enough to keep them? Pay for the research and treatments that this money produces? It's a double-edged sword.


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## Horsef

SilverMaple said:


> The real reason for the toilet paper shortage: https://marker.medium.com/what-everyones-getting-wrong-about-the-toilet-paper-shortage-c812e1358fe0
> 
> Makes sense.


I guess smaller markets, like my country, are much more agile in changing supply chains.

We have toilet paper on sale. I'm not kidding.


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## egrogan

Horsef said:


> Not to get political, but you guys need to have a long, hard look at the whole situation. This virus isn't even close to how bad the next one could be. I understand that there are some realities in the US which have created the current medical system and that there are no easy answers.



Sadly, about half the population have been trying to have a long, hard look at the situation for decades, and the other half thinks we are the best for a reason.

Twenty-five years ago when I was in college, I went on a term abroad to study national health care systems- we started looking at the US "system," and then spent the rest of the term studying in the UK, the Netherlands, and Hungary. We had some in-classroom lectures to learn the ins and outs of the systems, but spent most of our time touring GPs, hospitals, and specialty clinics to learn about service delivery. The people we met in every country were open and clear-eyed about both the strengths and weaknesses of their national approach. There were a couple of political science majors on the trip (me included), but mostly the students were pre-med folks. Even as 19 year-olds, inexperienced with the world and just learning to understand systems and policies, it was clear how backwards the US approach was. And so very little has changed since then. It's all incredibly sad and unnecessary.


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## Horsef

SilverMaple said:


> Totally. Everyone knows this, but the people who have to make this happen, aka our government, are so likely to be wrapped up in the medical or pharmaceutical industry profits, that they won't vote for it themselves. Our hospitals are purely profit-driven. Rural areas are increasingly seeing clinics and hospitals close because they have so many people with no insurance or Medicare and Medicaid patients (which hospitals lose money on ) that they can't afford to stay open. To make ends meet, they overcharge those of us WITH insurance, so the insurance companies see rising costs and in turn start charging more for the policies. It's ridiculous. 10 years ago, I ended up in the hospital for an appendectomy, and even with good insurance, ended up owing nearly $12,000. For a simple appendectomy. A friend who was between jobs, thus uninsured, had a heart attack and even though he's now back working, he owes more than $750,000 in medical bills that he will never be able to pay off, but he writes a check to the hospital every month that he can't afford because otherwise they'll send it to collections and he'll lose his home.
> 
> Our system is so broken in the US, but the people who could fix it profit off of it as it is, so it's not likely to happen. The other argument is that without the incentive of profit, what is the likelihood that we could pay top doctors and nurses enough to keep them? Pay for the research and treatments that this money produces? It's a double-edged sword.


It is very complex issue, definitely. From what I gather, a lot of the voters are against universal healthcare as well. I am not sure how you guys can fix it.


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## SilverMaple

We also have the people who are totally fine with some not being able to access healthcare. "If people want to not take care of themselves, then they can pay for their own care. I shouldn't have to pay for medical care for someone who is obese, smokes, or was stupid enough to pull out ahead of a truck and get hit." Any arguments that people can get sick or injured without 'fault' is brushed off as 'well, they must have done SOMETHING to cause it, or it's God's will. Or "if they want healthcare, they need to get a better job so they can afford it. I'm not paying for medical care for someone who is too lazy to work/doesn't have enough work ethic to get a better job or work a second job/etc." But you can't reason with them that things have changed, and it's not like it used to be where most jobs could support a family of four and also included benefits. 

It's infuriating. Even worse when it's spouted by someone chainsmoking cigarettes and then chastizing a 33 y.o. mom with two kids for not being able to afford her breast cancer treatment....


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## Horsef

egrogan said:


> Sadly, about half the population have been trying to have a long, hard look at the situation for decades, and the other half thinks we are the best for a reason.


Definition of "best" has always been very open to interpretation (I am not saying that US isn't "best", just that "best" isn't a very well defined concept).

Anyhow, China and Russia are making a very aggressive play for influence at the moment and this will not be forgotten at all.

EU is just...dunno what's happening there. Is there an EU still? 
Eh, it was a lovely idea, pity about the virus.


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## SilverMaple

Horsef said:


> It is very complex issue, definitely. From what I gather, a lot of the voters are against universal healthcare as well. I am not sure how you guys can fix it.


A lot are. A lot is basic misunderstandings about how it will be funded. Most are worried they will have to pay so much more in taxes, they won't be able to afford them. Others don't want someone to get something for 'free' who they may not feel is 'deserving.' They worry they will get less care than someone else who is poorer; right now, wealthy Americans have access to far better healthcare than middle class or poor Americans in most cases. They worry that if they are older or sick, they will only be offered palliative care as treatments are reserved for the younger people. They worry about long waits for diagnostics, having quality care only in populated areas, losing quality doctors and nurses to other countries if they won't make as much as they currently do here, etc. Most people against universal healthcare are in the older demographic and have never traveled outside the US. I think over the next 10 - 20 years, we'll see a shift that may be enough to swing the voting block to supporting it, but it will be a long, uphill climb. Replacing our current elected government officials at the state and national level is the first step to make it happen, so it will likely not happen quickly. If there is ANY silver lining to the COVID-19 crisis it's that it's highlighted the problems with our current healthcare system and government and the complete lack of safety net for most American workers, and possibly may spur some changes.


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## Horsef

SilverMaple said:


> A lot are. A lot is basic misunderstandings about how it will be funded. Most are worried they will have to pay so much more in taxes, they won't be able to afford them. Others don't want someone to get something for 'free' who they may not feel is 'deserving.' They worry they will get less care than someone else who is poorer; right now, wealthy Americans have access to far better healthcare than middle class or poor Americans in most cases. They worry that if they are older or sick, they will only be offered palliative care as treatments are reserved for the younger people. They worry about long waits for diagnostics, having quality care only in populated areas, losing quality doctors and nurses to other countries if they won't make as much as they currently do here, etc. Most people against universal healthcare are in the older demographic and have never traveled outside the US. I think over the next 10 - 20 years, we'll see a shift that may be enough to swing the voting block to supporting it, but it will be a long, uphill climb. Replacing our current elected government officials at the state and national level is the first step to make it happen, so it will likely not happen quickly. If there is ANY silver lining to the COVID-19 crisis it's that it's highlighted the problems with our current healthcare system and government and the complete lack of safety net for most American workers, and possibly may spur some changes.


A lot of those are very valid concerns.

Some of them aren't confined to universal health care, as we are seeing at the moment:

- They worry that if they are older or sick, they will only be offered palliative care as treatments are reserved for the younger people. 
- Others don't want someone to get something for 'free' who they may not feel is 'deserving.'
- They worry about long waits for diagnostics

All of these are happening or about to happen in New York, regardless of who paid for what. I am hoping that you guys manage to flatten the curve and that other cities fare better. I guess only the very,very rich are guaranteed health care at the moment.


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## egrogan

Horsef said:


> Definition of "best" has always been very open to interpretation (I am not saying that US isn't "best", just that "best" isn't a very well defined concept).



Oh yes, I hope you know I was being sarcastic- should have put "best" in the quotes it deserves.


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## BzooZu

Some facts and statistics from Slovakia:

We are at 534 positively tested COVID-19 people and 15 657 people who tested negative. 8 people recovered from the virus, 1 died. Out of those 534 only 72 are requiring hospitalisation. We are testing about 1500 people daily and we are seeing on average 30 new confirmed cases per day.

As our population is about 5,5 million I wouldnt call it "mass" testing as our government announced a week or two ago but there was some scandal with inaccurate tests being bought which slowed down everything again.

Things arent looking too bad but also not too good either at the moment. It looked like our government was doing okay at the beginning but now all we are hearing are squabbles, affairs and fights. All we are hearing from EU (who was it that asked if EU is still going on? XD) is economy this, economy that. Which I mean, its not terrible but I would rather hear about help to people, not this whole help to economy. Because by "economy" they always mean companies, not the people working for them.


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## SilverMaple

Horsef said:


> A lot of those are very valid concerns.
> 
> Some of them aren't confined to universal health care, as we are seeing at the moment:
> 
> - They worry that if they are older or sick, they will only be offered palliative care as treatments are reserved for the younger people.
> - Others don't want someone to get something for 'free' who they may not feel is 'deserving.'
> - They worry about long waits for diagnostics
> 
> All of these are happening or about to happen in New York, regardless of who paid for what. I am hoping that you guys manage to flatten the curve and that other cities fare better. I guess only the very,very rich are guaranteed health care at the moment.


Definitely! It happens daily elsewhere throughout the country, too--- if two people show up in a small emergency room with life-threatening injuries, the one likeliest to survive will be treated first, they just don't tell you that. I had a library patron several weeks ago lamenting how she had to wait six weeks for an MRI for her headaches, and four months to see a specialist and 'thank goodness we don't have universal healthcare or it would be even longer.' Then I see a Canadian friend on FB saying she's getting an MRI in a week to diagnose a health issue she's having, and thankful that her medical bills will not bankrupt her family... there is a lot of ignorance and rumors that just aren't true that are guiding peoples' views in the US, and a lot of it is coming from a certain news network which I will not name, but that nearly anyone in the US can tell you caters to certain beliefs and political views, and presents those opinions as facts. Most Americans were also taught from Day 1 that 'this is the greatest country in the world' and 'you should be grateful to have been born an American' and find it hard to fathom that some other nations might have some ideas that are better... it's hard for people to deal with that concept, especially if they have not traveled or been exposed to people of other nationalities or beliefs. I truly believe a lot of the problems in the USA could be solved by international travel and getting out of one's hometown and comfort zone.


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## Horsef

BzooZu said:


> Some facts and statistics from Slovakia:
> 
> We are at 534 positively tested COVID-19 people and 15 657 people who tested negative. 8 people recovered from the virus, 1 died. Out of those 534 only 72 are requiring hospitalisation. We are testing about 1500 people daily and we are seeing on average 30 new confirmed cases per day.
> 
> As our population is about 5,5 million I wouldnt call it "mass" testing as our government announced a week or two ago but there was some scandal with inaccurate tests being bought which slowed down everything again.
> 
> Things arent looking too bad but also not too good either at the moment. It looked like our government was doing okay at the beginning but now all we are hearing are squabbles, affairs and fights. All we are hearing from EU (who was it that asked if EU is still going on? XD) is economy this, economy that. Which I mean, its not terrible but I would rather hear about help to people, not this whole help to economy. Because by "economy" they always mean companies, not the people working for them.


Are they doing contact tracing, do you know? I think when they say "mass" testing, they mean testing all the known contacts - not testing randomly - but I could be wrong.

Your numbers seem to show you are doing really well, hopefully it stays that way.


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## carshon

@SilverMaple you took the words out of my mouth. Part of the ignorance of the American people toward universal health care is propaganda stories about how Canadians and those in Europe are dying waiting for procedures. I will tall you that being a member of a couple of different horse forums and having a childhood friend that lives in England has opened my eyes considerably to universal health care. My family has had 2 emergency surgeries in 2019 and now owe over $10,000 in medical bills - after our insurance deductible was met and insurance paid. both of these surgeries required less than 1 day in hospital (one appendectomy and one gall bladder removal) The insurance already paid both hospitals over $40K each. The pricing is just ridiculous! The pervasive thought that if those "deadbeats" would just get good jobs with benefits we wouldn't need universal health care is a carry over from our baby boomer generation. It's just simply not true. My husband has a good job and carries our insurance for the family - we pay over $600 per month for insurance and it goes up every year. Our deductible is also at $5k per person and after you meet your deductible the coverage is 75%- that's not great insurance. The U.S is so profit driven for large companies that no change will be made unless those in Congress face consequences from voters. Lack of educating themselves on true issues is such a problem here.

More new cases in my rural area - husbands work started taking temps outside the building today and requiring masks be worn.


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## SilverMaple

My father-in-law got a small but deep cut on his hand a few months ago, a few days before they left for vacation. The day after they arrived in Mazatlan, Mexico for their vacation, he developed blood poisoning, and got red streaks up his arm from the cut and spiked a high fever. He was rushed to the hospital, and ended up staying several days on IV medication in critical care. He recovered well. Had he been in the US, his care costs would have been 20x what he paid or more, AFTER his insurance paid their portion. He says the hospital was modern, clean, and he received excellent care with the same medication protocol as if he were in the US, but all of his friends had the misguided belief that the hospital had to be completely inadequate and they had chalked him up for dead since he was 'stuck in a 3rd world country' with an emergency. That's the kind of thinking common among people who assume no other nation but the US has decent healthcare or medical facilities. Another friend's mom traveled to India for her hip replacement. She said her care was top-notch, and cost a small fraction of what it would have cost in the US, even with her flight, hotel costs, rehab, etc. It was cheaper for her to go to a foreign country and stay several weeks than it was for her to have it done at the hospital 25 miles from her home. International travel for non-emergency healthcare is an ever-growing phenomenon in the US.


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## Spanish Rider

> Side note: I am not sure if epidemiologists becoming household names is hilarious or tragic.


A colleague of mine (general surgeon, uni profesor and Director of a major Madrid hospital) has been interviewed several time on TV, and he said it best:

"You know that there is something really going wrong in Spain when physicians are on TV more than footballers."


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## Spanish Rider

> Most Americans were also taught from Day 1 that 'this is the greatest country in the world' and 'you should be grateful to have been born an American' and find it hard to fathom that some other nations might have some ideas that are better...


That was very true after WWII, when Europe was a hot mess. I have lived in Europe for 30 years, and in the last 15-20 our infrastructures and healthcare systems have surpassed those of Metrowest Boston, which is where my family still lives. The Boston area has had no improvements in transportation or infrastructure (except for the Big Dig) since the 1960s. 495 is the same as it was when I was a kid, now with 4x the number of cars.


As for private versus public healthcare, we have both. I pay 265€ per month for social security benefits, which includes full national healthcare coverage and provides me with a modest pension when I retire. 

*Benefits of NHS*: everything is free (no co-pays), and meds for chronic conditions are subsidized (my BP meds are 7€/month, and those are the most expensive prescription we have). Because the physicians have been hired out of public medical schools, which are cheaper and therefore more competitive than private colleges, they are absolutely brilliant and top of their class. Plus, med school starts at the age of 18 - my niece the doctor started dissecting cadaveric limbs her first semester. At the age of 22, she has been doing rounds with doctors for the past 2 years, assisted in surgeries (hernia repairs, closing abdominal incisions, etc.) and labor/births, and has even been able to hold a beating heart in her hand.

*Disadvantages of NHS*: while the acute/critical care is very fast, there can be longer waiting times for non-emergency care. Plus, you have no coverage for travel abroad. For this reason, we as a family have a private insurance plan (from DH's employer) that covers emergencies abroad, and we also use it when waiting times for testing in the NHS is too long.

Right now, as it is a national emergency, only public hospitals are providing critical care for COVID19 patients.


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## BzooZu

Horsef said:


> Are they doing contact tracing, do you know? I think when they say "mass" testing, they mean testing all the known contacts - not testing randomly - but I could be wrong.
> 
> Your numbers seem to show you are doing really well, hopefully it stays that way.


They are doing contact tracing, though not sure if they are as successful at it as your country seems to be. 

First line of testing are people coming home from abroad (not many, but we get a bus full of them at least once/twice a week). They get sent to a quarantine center (repurposed hotel) where they get tested, wait for results and if they are negative they can go home but need to stay in quarantine for 14 days (along with anyone who they live with). If they are positive, they stay in the hotels or they are sent home if they live alone and are being monitored or to hospitals if they need it. 

Second line of testing goes to people in hospitals who show any sign of potentionally having the virus. With that goes testing of hospital staff as much as possible. Also, here comes the contacts testing ( contacts mean family living with positive person, any family who was in contact with the person in last 14 days, any people who sit in the same room with for more than 15 minutes - colleagues, clients, healthcare personel, etc.) For example there was a worry that a whole Roma village would need to be tested when one of their own got home from abroad - I mean, you cant quarantine if you live with more than 20 people in one house so the police just quarantined the whole village - thankfully the man wasnt infected but if he was, it could have been really bad.

Third line are people who are having high fevers for longer than 4 days and show any of the other signs of COVID-19 ( coughing, difficulties with breathing). Here people over 65 yo are given priority. Those people need to call their doctor, who decides what next (if they suspect you caught this nasty virus, you either are supposed to go to the nearest testing center or your doctor sends an ambulance to your house - depending on situation). You dont need to have been abroad or have met with someone who traveled abroad to get tested, though it can take some time.


I think we are not doing too bad (knock on the wood) but it also may be just nice numbers because we are still not testing enough. We have the capacity to test more, its just not happening at the moment.


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## Horsef

@BzooZu I think we are using a similar approach. You were lucky that you didn’t have a big influx of people from various hotspots - we got 300.000 three to four weeks ago and we are still getting two or three plane-fulls per day.

Our guys are finding some extremely irresponsible people. One women came from Bergamo. She got her orders to self-isolate and slipped them. By the time they caught her, she managed to take a bus to three different cities and she confessed that she already tested positive in Italy :/ All of her contacts were placed in self-isolation and one of her contacts was a post office worker so that post office was promptly closed and all the workers and their families are in self-isolation. Hopefully none of the customers caught it - that is impossible to contact trace. Someone behaving like that deserves criminal charges in my opinion. Hopefully she gets time.

They are finding a lot of asymptomatic people in contacts and putting them in large halls to quarantine. People being people, a video was leaked of a party from one of those places. This whole thing has had a David Lynch vibe for a while now but that party was surreal.


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## farmpony84

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## Horsef

@gottatrot That is one of the many concerns which are valid. Universal health care isn’t a silver bullet and these concerns should be acknowledged in discussions about it. I personally support universal health care but I am aware of its drawbacks.

One thing that must be said: this “run on the hospitals” is toppling both private and public systems. It reminds me of my other fear - run on the banks - which is the first thing that came to mind when the epidemic started but thankfully hasn’t happened yet. Just like state owned commercial banks aren’t magically immune to runs on banks, so public health care systems are just as likely to buckle under this huge demand. Neither system will ever have the capacity to withstand a 500% or 1000% increase in demand. It isn’t realistic.

What public health care systems are better at is orchestrating the initial defense to forestall the epidemic because the are centrally managed and better organized to handle a large scale threat - if the politicians listen to the experts well before the whole thing explodes. All of the fundamental building blocks of a country have to react properly, not just healthcare.

I am not singling US out at all, other countries (with universal health care) were not quick enough either and are paying the price now. And I am not saying my own country was oh-so-clever - these are still early times for all of us, unfortunately. All it would take is two weeks to reach the point of no return.


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## ACinATX

I am probably not alone in wondering, every time I cough, if I have Covid19. I just found this article and thought it was kind of useful. It describes not just the normal symptoms, but also some atypical symptoms, and tells you what to do if you have them:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/health/10-key-coronavirus-symptoms-wellness/index.html


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## Hondo

I read an article that got my attention this morning about an MIT study that said it was possible for people to emit water droplets that traveled as far as 27 feet. Fauci expressed that he believed that was extreme but the article went on to mention how far breath fog went on cold mornings explaining the fog was made of water droplets.


Don't know if this has been mentioned, but NEPA vacuum bags have a higher rating than N95 on particle size retention. So I've decided to use a respirator I have that is in good shape with the cartridges and one-way valves removed and cover it with NEPA. Good fit and it should protect both me and others. May wear glasses also.


I only need to go to town every couple of weeks or so. May use a special set of cloths (as I read boots does) and then shower after every trip. I'm up there in the 10% or so fatality statistics.


I've escaped so many near death situations that it would be disheartening for a little bug to get me.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Here's something I don't believe has been mentioned anywhere.
Yesterday my wife and I grocery shop and an employee without mask or gloves hands me something I'm looking for. I also get supplies at a hardware store.
So a person could wear mask and gloves, washing hands 50 times a day thinking they're safe. 
What got me thinking is the grocery item handed to me was packaged, last night I opened and ate it. Check this out:

"According to a recent study published in the*New England Journal of Medicine, SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, can live in the air and on surfaces between several hours and several days. The study found that the virus is viable for up to 72 hours on plastics, 48 hours on stainless steel, 24 hours on cardboard, and 4 hours on copper. It is also detectable in the air for three hours."
My point is to be 90% safer you would have to have a procedure in place where at home with mask and gloves on every single item you buy would have to be washed with a bleach based disinfectant, as well as every part of your car you MAY have touched! I'm probably generous with the 90% safe estimate. 
Correct?

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## BzooZu

Horsef said:


> @BzooZu I think we are using a similar approach. You were lucky that you didn’t have a big influx of people from various hotspots - we got 300.000 three to four weeks ago and we are still getting two or three plane-fulls per day.


You are right, weve got some people coming back, but our government is only allowing back people who have a reason to be here (dont have other option, cant stay in the state they are in right now etc.) and they are limiting them so our quarantine centers arent over their capacity.

Another reason may be, that we closed our borders relatively fast so most people didnt get the chance to try and come home.

Actually, we now have a problem finding enough people to work mostly in manufacturing or other manual jobs because they have gone home. I know of more than one company in this town that is now looking for new employees because their main work force was from Ukraine and Serbia. And they just packed and the next day didnt come to work. Not that I blame them - they had the chance to go home and used it.


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## jaydee

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Here's something I don't believe has been mentioned anywhere.
> Yesterday my wife and I grocery shop and an employee without mask or gloves hands me something I'm looking for. I also get supplies at a hardware store.
> So a person could wear mask and gloves, washing hands 50 times a day thinking they're safe.
> What got me thinking is the grocery item handed to me was packaged, last night I opened and ate it. Check this out:
> 
> "According to a recent study published in the*New England Journal of Medicine, SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, can live in the air and on surfaces between several hours and several days. The study found that the virus is viable for up to 72 hours on plastics, 48 hours on stainless steel, 24 hours on cardboard, and 4 hours on copper. It is also detectable in the air for three hours."
> My point is to be 90% safer you would have to have a procedure in place where at home with mask and gloves on every single item you buy would have to be washed with a bleach based disinfectant, as well as every part of your car you MAY have touched! I'm probably generous with the 90% safe estimate.
> Correct?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


If you're concerned about packaging that you need to handle immediately you can spray with a sanitizer - washing with bleach is going to be counter productive!
You can't do that with every item you pick up in a supermarket hence the importance of washing or sanitizing your hands the moment you've loaded into your vehicle and again after you've unloaded and stored at home.

People serving in stores do need to up their game if they aren't already wearing masks and gloves - though gloves aren't going to be much use if that person wearing them is wiping their nose on the back of their hand.

I know many people who are leaving cardboard packages unopened and undisturbed for 24 hours.


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## BzooZu

ACinATX said:


> I am probably not alone in wondering, every time I cough, if I have Covid19. I just found this article and thought it was kind of useful. It describes not just the normal symptoms, but also some atypical symptoms, and tells you what to do if you have them:
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/health/10-key-coronavirus-symptoms-wellness/index.html


 @ACinATX if I counted those symptoms then I would say that me, my mom and my dad already have it/had it too. 
For example my mom got sore throat, is coughing, is a bit short of breath (she is watching it and we would be calling an ambulance right away if it got worse) and was also feeling a pressure on her chest a few days ago - thats now gone. She doesnt have fever, but she never has fever, no matter how sick she is. She has body aches and her stomach gets easily upset lately and she also had a bad headache the whole weekend.
So she has at least 5 of those 10 symptoms listed in your link. 
BUT it also has been more than 2 weeks since her sore throat started, none of those got worse, they are getting better. She is also prone to getting headaches and stomachaches a lot and also, everything is blooming which means her seasonal allergies could be acting up too. So who even knows....


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## SilverMaple

For groceries, this is what I've been doing: 
- before I go to the store, I sanitize the kitchen table. This is now a 'clean' area. Then I'll put my hair in a ponytail so I won't touch my face brushing hair out of my eyes, especially if it's windy. I put my credit card in my pocket, and keep my phone and purse in the back seat so I won't touch them. They don't go into the store with me. 
- I take a baggie with a sanitizing wipe to the store and wipe down my cart handle and sides. If I've touched a door handle coming in, I wipe my hands off, too. After paying, I use a second wipe to wipe my card and hands again.
- after shopping, I sanitize my hands with sanitizer before touching anything else in the car or closing the car door. After that, I take my keys out and drive home.
- I place all of the bags on the front porch, then remove my shoes and coat/sweatshirt and leave them on the porch. Put on my house shoes, and take the bags to the kitchen. The grocery bags sit on a side table. As I remove each item, I wipe it off with a Lysol wipe and before placing it on the clean counter. Exterior packaging that can be removed (cereal boxes, frozen pizza, etc.) goes directly into the trash, then the interior plastic is wiped. This sounds complicated, but really doesn't take that long.
- fresh produce gets a bath in warm water and placed in the sunshine to dry 
- Once everything is in and wiped, I put the bags into recycling (stores here are not allowing reusable bags) and then back clean-- spray and wipe the side table and kitchen table, then the door handles, the car door handles, steering wheel, keys, my purse handles, phone, etc. -- anything I may have touched on my way into the house. I also wipe the soles of my house shoes, then go spray the soles of the shoes I wore out in public. 
- anything from a store other than groceries that can be left on the porch for a few days before bringing in spends awhile out there. 
- if we do get takeout food, remove the food from the bag, discard bag, wash hands. Then wipe the exterior of the takeout containers with a sanitizing wipe, then tip the food out into another container or plate without touching it. Wash hands again. Microwave until hot and steamy. The virus does not survive well on food, nor does it like heat. We've been avoiding most takeout, but want to support our struggling local businesses, too. So when we do get it, we get something that is hot and can be reheated easily-- burgers, fajitas, pizza,-- no lettuce salads, cold wraps, etc. If you have leftovers, don't store them in the takeout containers; use a tupperware, etc. 

Is it overkill? Maybe. But it doesn't take that long, and it makes me feel better.


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## gottatrot

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> My point is to be 90% safer you would have to have a procedure in place where at home with mask and gloves on every single item you buy would have to be washed with a bleach based disinfectant, as well as every part of your car you MAY have touched! I'm probably generous with the 90% safe estimate.


Good points @ horsef. I think changes to giant health care systems would ideally be done gradually to prevent things like massive losses of workers. 

I have seen people going through extremes of repackaging everything they bring home from the store. First I think it is important to remember you won't be safer by doing these things in any large degree because contact is not a primary mode of transmission. Meaning that if people are kept out of close range where they are coughing and sneezing on each other and touching areas recently contaminated with wet secretions, it cuts down infection massively. 

If all we did was cut down touching what other people had touched several hours ago, it would not cut down the infection rate meaningfully. It is the difference between possible and likely. 

All you really need to do to prevent that unlikely contact transmission is wash your hands after touching things from outside the home. Let's say you take food out of a cupboard, put it on a plate, go eat something. All you need to do is wash your hands before and eating, wipe the counter and wash your hands after putting the food away. It doesn't really matter if germs were present, your hands are now clean in case you rub your nose. Your counters are clean and the next thing set down will not be contiminated. 

The virus can't multiply outside a host, so each potential removal of it from one touch to another surface would mean less and less of it present. It's not like there could be enough to spread over multiple surfaces.

You are protecting yourself more like putting on a seatbelt even though you have not been in a crash for fifteen years than wearing a helmet on a track where you race motorcycles.


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## Spanish Rider

Because our community spread is so high, we have not been to the grocery store in nearly a month. It makes me feel safer.

We have received 2 orders of meat, fruits & veg from a farmers' consortium. The delivery people always come to the house in masks and gloves. Even so, I have them leave everything on the porch. I only take into the house the meat, wipe down the packaging, and put it in the fridge. I leave the fruit and veg on the porch for a day or two before touching.


Extreme? Probably. But since we have been in quarantine for 4 weeks, *the newly identified cases are of people who were infected during quarantine - either in their own homes by family members or in the supermarket/pharmacy* because we are not allowed to go anywhere else.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> \
> 
> All you really need to do to prevent that unlikely contact transmission is wash your hands after touching things from outside the home.



After reading and thinking about how far breath fog spreads on a cold morning, I'm more concerned about that than contact transmission, although that too is obviously important.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

To me, the best information would be from NIH, Johns Hopkins, CDC, Harvard, N.E. Journal of Medicine, etc.
So my post 1174, Covid is active on plastic for three days. Yesterday I get something sealed in plastic handed to me 6 hours before and most likely touched by over 10 people in 3 days. My hands are washed, yet I tear it open and eat it. 
Corona is highly contagious we're told. 
Post 1178 is more in line with what we should be doing but what very few of us do.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## Fuddyduddy1952

This is the way to shop .









Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## Acadianartist

egrogan said:


> Again, I just would caution not to paint with a broad brush- there ARE a meaningful percentage of Americans who are actively advocating that. Ironically, most of the people who are most opposed wouldn't have income in the ranges that would require them to pay in this way, and consume a large percentage of services anyway (and would continue to). There are structural, systemic reasons related to our electoral system that currently stand as a barrier to what a numerical plurality of Americans want to see happen (which I probably can't get into without getting my hand slapped for talking politics). But I just get antsy when people think that all of America is an uneducated backwater. I don't want to get reprimanded so I'll stop


You're absolutely right. Sorry for the broad statement. I understand what you're saying and you're quite right to point it out. Many want a universal health care plan.


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## Acadianartist

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Here's something I don't believe has been mentioned anywhere.
> Yesterday my wife and I grocery shop and an employee without mask or gloves hands me something I'm looking for. I also get supplies at a hardware store.
> So a person could wear mask and gloves, washing hands 50 times a day thinking they're safe.
> What got me thinking is the grocery item handed to me was packaged, last night I opened and ate it. Check this out:
> 
> "According to a recent study published in the*New England Journal of Medicine, SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, can live in the air and on surfaces between several hours and several days. The study found that the virus is viable for up to 72 hours on plastics, 48 hours on stainless steel, 24 hours on cardboard, and 4 hours on copper. It is also detectable in the air for three hours."
> My point is to be 90% safer you would have to have a procedure in place where at home with mask and gloves on every single item you buy would have to be washed with a bleach based disinfectant, as well as every part of your car you MAY have touched! I'm probably generous with the 90% safe estimate.
> Correct?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


Yes, and I know many people who are washing every single grocery item in their garage before bringing them in the house. I personally have not done this, but I know many who do.


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## tinyliny

I just went grocery shopping today. Here's my strategy:


I wear gloves and a mask. I go very early when the store is less crowded. At check out, I remove the glove from my left hand. This hand can now ONLY touch my wallet. I one handed open wallet, take out card, pay at machine. put hand back in pocket. 



load car with gloved hand only. remove glove, throw away. 



At home, take into house all things that will expire without refridgeration. All rest, put in safe place in carport/garage. 



at sink, wash my hands, then wash with soapy water all glass metal that I will need soon. (remember, the rest is in quarantine in the garage).


If i need packaged cereal, I remove the inner package, throw away paper. I do not worry about veggies in bags, The will all be washed at time of cooking. They go into fridge. 


When all done, wash my hands again, bleach surfaces the stuff sat on, go back and wipe down all doorknobs , and any part of car I touched. any part.


make a cup of tea and relax!


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## gottatrot

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> To me, the best information would be from NIH, Johns Hopkins, CDC, Harvard, N.E. Journal of Medicine, etc.
> So my post 1174, Covid is active on plastic for three days. Yesterday I get something sealed in plastic handed to me 6 hours before and most likely touched by over 10 people in 3 days. My hands are washed, yet I tear it open and eat it.
> Corona is highly contagious we're told.
> Post 1178 is more in line with what we should be doing but what very few of us do.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


CDC is one of the official resources saying primary contact is person to person.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/prevention.html

I have never seen a credible source that thought eating the virus could infect you. So even if you touch the packaging and eat, that is not a problem. That is why takeout is allowed. There are still things like e coli, salmonella and hepatitis you can catch by eating them. So it's never wrong to thoroughly wash veggies.

Fog has different properties from hot steam or splatter from a boiling pan. If a small droplet spatters on your hand when you are cooking, there was not also water vapor generated that is floating through all the rooms of your house for hours. That would require very specific parameters not possible in a typical building. That is what I read about covid also, the body can't aerosolize it, only machines make it possible in certain settings.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo, the more humid it is, the more likely that the droplets coming from the respiratory system are larger, making them fall to the ground faster. Also with more water molecules in the air the ones containing the virus collide more and tend to travel less far.

Everyone should do what makes them feel safer. Stress is hard on the immune system, so taking extra measures that give you peace of mind can help prevent sickness in ways you may not consider.


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## Acadianartist

I often think of people who think being outside is much safer because the droplets will fall to the ground faster. But that only works if you're not downwind. Wouldn't they potentially be swirling around in the air and getting blown even further? Not that I'm spending time outside with people outside my family, but I wondered.

On a different note, our prime minister said at his daily press conference yesterday that masks will prevent you from "speaking moistly" on other people! :rofl:

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1721286723767  

Sorry, a pandemic is not funny, but that was hilarious and one has to laugh when one can. He immediately realized how that sounded and commented "well, that was a terrible image". You have to admit, he has a sense of humour about himself.


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## boots

Acadianartist said:


> On a different note, our prime minister said at his daily press conference yesterday that masks will prevent you from "speaking moistly" on other people! :rofl:
> 
> Sorry, a pandemic is not funny, but that was hilarious and one has to laugh when one can. He immediately realized how that sounded and commented "well, that was a terrible image". You have to admit, he has a sense of humour about himself.


I hate being near "moist" speakers! It only takes once and I never forget. 

Our hospital put plexiglass in front of our reception desk. I thought it needed to be decorated. So...

I paid attention to about where our receptionist's head was and when she stepped away I drew a bunny face with ears, nose, and whiskers.

A patient came in, and laughed and said "you have a bunny face! I can't take you seriously!" She responded "So do you!" Then he really laughed and made her take a picture.

Gotta have a little fun.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

If you can't find the humor in things, even the bleakest things sometimes, you'll fall into a black hole of depression. Keep on living one day at a time, making your plans for when this is over and finding little things to enjoy. 

I've been finding hilarious animal memes and short videos to look at, and of course, there's the silly chickens and horses out in my own pastures. My 2 dogs make me laugh every day and I love on them as much as they can stand. 

Today, I went out and loved on each horse individually. Took Boo to the vet for a preg check, she is in foal (SKIPPEEEEE!) and next week we check Goldie. They are being very careful, taking the animals in, checking them and then one girl is bringing them back out, taking payment and making further appointments. I like that they are being so conscientious. Later this afternoon, they posted a pic of Boo's Ultrasound, since I couldn't go inside. They put it up on FB for me to be able to get my first glimpse of the new foaldy. I though that was very nice of them. 

And for the somber side of things, we're up to 1472 confirmed cases and 67 deaths. I see my county is up to 24 cases and no deaths still. Goes to show ya what good hardy farming stock will do for ya. We've also been declared a Federal Disaster zone because of the Covid 19, along with several other states, opening the door to more Federal aid. I also see where Pres. Trump has signed into law that folks with no insurance will be treated to the fullest for Covid and that hospitals and providers will be reimbursed at the Medicare levels and no balance billing will be allowed. That's an excellent move for the folks who can't afford insurance and don't qualify for Medicaid (which in this state is dang near impossible to qualify for). 

I've told my husband if I come down with it, he's to take me to the Cherokee Hospital in Tahlequah, I won't have this thing bankrupt us by going into a private hospital, even though I have excellent insurance, the balance they bill for is sky high. And Lord willin' and Devil don't object, I haven't been ill this year, so haven't met my deductible or even close to my out of pocket stop gap.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> That is what I read about covid also, the body can't aerosolize it, only machines make it possible in certain settings.



So does this mean that someone can't just breath the virus out? The tiny droplets that would form fog if it was cold enough don't/can't contain virus, but only larger droplets from coughing or sneezing?


This is something I want to be certain to understand. Maybe I misunderstood but I got the idea that all infected had a cloud of virus laden mist around them. Not true?


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## tinyliny

I think they can, if they yell, or sing as opposed to just normal level talking.


A chorale group up here in Washington met for practice , early on this whole thing. They kept an empty space between each person, did not hug or shake hands. But, they sang, for an hour or so. Then they went home and more than half of them ended up sick.


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## Hondo

Yes! I was off searching for where I read just now, but yes, the choral group was mentioned also. If I recall correctly, it was 45 out of 60.


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## Hondo

Quora says 10 microns and above is droplets and below is airborne. If the transmission is by contact or droplets, it would seem any old mask, ever a handkerchief, would be a big benefit. But at 6 feet or more the droplets would......drop?


So going crazy with filtering the air being breathed is overkill?


I had been thinking about going to the store with 1 micron canisters. Guess not necessary.


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## Horsef

Hondo said:


> Quora says 10 microns and above is droplets and below is airborne. If the transmission is by contact or droplets, it would seem any old mask, ever a handkerchief, would be a big benefit. But at 6 feet or more the droplets would......drop?
> 
> 
> So going crazy with filtering the air being breathed is overkill?
> 
> 
> I had been thinking about going to the store with 1 micron canisters. Guess not necessary.


I think that it is very early days for scientists to give such answers with a large degree of certainty. I think they will find some very specific cases in which the virus might be airborne. Car washes or steam baths come to mind. As with a lot of things in life, it is likely to be a scale rather than a binary answer. Using more precautions doesn’t hurt and reduces the statistical probability of you catching it. It also gives you peace of mind, which is important as well.

I had to drive my mom somewhere recently, after not seeing her in weeks. We agreed not to talk in the car and I hung a sheet between us. Was that excessive? Could be, but it came at no cost to us.

I leave all my shopping in the garage for five days and then wash in soapy water. The only thing I buy that must be refrigerated is meat. I buy vacuum packed only and I give it a soapy bath before it goes into the freezer.

I don’t buy any fresh produce. I have relatives who have been traveling extensively throughout Africa for decades and who are doctors. As soon as this thing broke, they started implementing the no fresh produce rule because in their experience from Africa those are the most troublesome. They emphasized that they don’t think this particular virus will cause trouble with fresh produce because trouble with fresh produce usually has to do with fertilization procedures but they said that everything that reduces risk is a good thing.

If you do find yourself in regions where fertilization isn’t tightly controlled, most definitely do avoid fresh produce because this virus has been proven to be excreted in feces. 

Would I be fine if I ate cooked broccoli? Very likely. Does it cost me anything to eat caned peas instead? No. So caned peas it is for us.

I am most probably going overboard but I am in a high risk group (and husband is a germophobe) so every bit helps. And it reduces anxiety, at least for us.

Caveat is - if you have to visit a lot of shops to find what you need - that is increasing the risk and I personally wouldn’t do it.


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## Horsef

We were talking earlier how each country has its own challenges. South Africa has been struggling to explain the difference between HIV and this new virus. They spent so much effort in educating people on how HIV is transmitted that they are now struggling to get through to them quickly. Main sticking points are to do with transmission (“I was tested last week and I was negative and my husband was also negative so that means we are safe”) and the fact that people can clear this virus, unlike HIV. (“My son was positive last week but he is negative now so last week was an error, we are all safe”).

They have implemented a full lockdown, everything is closed except for grocery shops and pharmacies. On paper. Informal settlements (townships) were difficult to police at best of times and now is not an exception. They are trying to do contact tracing but when you have people living on top of each other with little sanitation, it’s not easy.

Added difficulty is that townships are dangerous places and sending people into them to collect samples and round up contacts isn’t exactly easy. I’ve read between the lines that they are working with local crime bosses but also respected priests and prominent local elders to keep the health workers safe. (“Seeking help from local liaisons”). One of my family members has extensive experience in delivering various basic and healthcare services within townships and she confirmed that this is how you need to go about it. People can’t just waltz in and start swabbing like we do.


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## BzooZu

Whelp, Slovakia is on a travel ban for a week. We cant go to a different county as police and military are blocking the roads. There are total of 79 counties and some of them are only a few square kilometers/miles big (small). We arent a big country anyway so if we wanted to go out by car this week, we would probably need to stop sooner than after half an hour of driving. 

I am all for this kind of restriction because some people are totaly ignoring the rules ( even though most of us are scared to go out more than necessary) though now my parents will need to stay at home the whole weekend and I am not sure if we survive it without arguing... 

As for shopping, our grocery stores are now obligated to give their customers one-use gloves, so at least I know that nobody touched anything ( well, if they didnt rub the veggies on their foreheads that is....)


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## Horsef

BzooZu said:


> Whelp, Slovakia is on a travel ban for a week. We cant go to a different county as police and military are blocking the roads. There are total of 79 counties and some of them are only a few square kilometers/miles big (small). We arent a big country anyway so if we wanted to go out by car this week, we would probably need to stop sooner than after half an hour of driving.
> 
> I am all for this kind of restriction because some people are totaly ignoring the rules ( even though most of us are scared to go out more than necessary) though now my parents will need to stay at home the whole weekend and I am not sure if we survive it without arguing...
> 
> As for shopping, our grocery stores are now obligated to give their customers one-use gloves, so at least I know that nobody touched anything ( well, if they didnt rub the veggies on their foreheads that is....)


I think they introduced it to prevent people from traveling to their extended family for Easter. Our guys have announced that they are planning a similar lock down for next week (Eastern Orthodox churches celebrate on the 19th). I am not sure about the rest of the world, but it is definitely necessary in Serbia. Some of the people I spoke to already had plans to travel to smaller cities and villages to visit their family, as is our custom for religious holidays. Duh.


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## Acadianartist

Yes, Easter is going to be a problem for a lot of places. Some people are adamant that they will do what they want to do no matter what. Police have given out a handful of fines to people for not respecting social distancing and they are shocking posting the fines on social media as if they were somehow unjustly treated. Of course there can be valid reasons for being out and about, but there is still far too much flaunting of rules, as if it just hasn't sunk in. I think the only reason we are still not being hit by many cases here (# are going down still and they were always low to start with) is that our province is not heavily populated and we live very far from each other. A lot more single-family dwellings on rural properties here, very poor mass transit, etc. We're also used to being cut off from the world and don't tend to rely on restaurants, fast-food or frequent trips to stores as much.


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## boots

Acadianartist said:


> ...not heavily populated and we live very far from each other. A lot more single-family dwellings on rural properties here, very poor mass transit, etc. We're also used to being cut off from the world and don't tend to rely on restaurants, fast-food or frequent trips to stores as much.


Sounds like most of Wyoming.


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## farmpony84

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*27 Political Discussions *
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If there is a general news item or horse related news topic then it is permissible to discuss it in the General Off Topic area.
Threads or posts that resemble political discussions or have a strong potential to become political discussions will promptly be removed.

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_


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## Jolien

In Belgium the government alerted us all (several times) with an email (most people are inscribed in something called Be-alert) with instructions from the national safety council. (this system also sends us text messages when a disaster near our work or hone takes place. It is a very good system. I live near an industrial area and when something is burning and the smoke is toxic we all get these text messages that tell us what to do...) They also took to the internet and everywhere we surf a thing pops up that says 'covid info click here' and it leads to a government website with all the current info and FAQ about everything. The news, radio and newspapers tell us about it every hour. They also do their very best to fight misinformation (they show this bad info on the news and tell us why it is not true and what we should do) 



I feel like they are doing the best they can and everyone tries to do as the government tells them. I just went grocery shopping (because I was scared I haven't been in a store for a month and I only ate vegetables and rice...  so I was losing weight and had to go to the mall), they desinfected my shopping cart with alcohol and the lady at the entrance asked me to use a shopping cart and everywhere there were printed instructions that said: keep distance, please respect our workers, please do not hoard... etc...' Everyone kept their disctance and awaited their turn. 



Only thing I found to be not okay was that after recess they reopened the schools and that was at the point where the covid virus was in the north or Italy and lots of folks go there on vacation... if they had told all those people to stay at home maybe they could've slowed down the spreading of the virus...


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## Jolien

also, I know this is not a political forum... but I find it slightly disturbing that there seems to be a tendency (in several countries) to help younger people first and to kinda ignore older people. I have very strong morals and I believe every life matters. Older people do matter. They worked their whole live and they also gave a part of their wage to the social security and now they are being treated as second hand civilians. Everybody wants to live and everyone is someone's dad, mom, daughter, spouse or friend. 



I know this is very complicated okay and I am not blaming anyone... I know health workers are giving their everything and this is no ones fault. Nobody asked for this kind of situation, but I feel we should keep humane wherever and whenever possible.


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## Jolien

Acadianartist said:


> Yes, Easter is going to be a problem for a lot of places. Some people are adamant that they will do what they want to do no matter what. Police have given out a handful of fines to people for not respecting social distancing and they are shocking posting the fines on social media as if they were somehow unjustly treated. Of course there can be valid reasons for being out and about, but there is still far too much flaunting of rules, as if it just hasn't sunk in. I think the only reason we are still not being hit by many cases here (# are going down still and they were always low to start with) is that our province is not heavily populated and we live very far from each other. A lot more single-family dwellings on rural properties here, very poor mass transit, etc. We're also used to being cut off from the world and don't tend to rely on restaurants, fast-food or frequent trips to stores as much.





police uses drones over here... To check what we are doing in our garden and to check for body heat (they would notice if there was some kind of party going on). I am very against invasion of the privacy but in this case I understand it... We must all do our efforts to prevent the hospitals from being flooded so everyone that ends up in intensive care has at least a fighting chance... I think it's about solidarity now and not about our own wants and needs... Yeah I would want to see my friend and party, but no I am not going to now because there is something bigger at stake now...


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## SwissMiss

Jolien said:


> ... that there seems to be a tendency (in several countries) to help younger people first and to kinda ignore older people...


Unfortunately, some hospitals have to triage as in a war zone. There are not enough resources to treat everyone and some extremely hard decisions have to be made. If you have several patients that need a ventilator now and you have only _one_ available, you will have to make a choice... And the choice will be for the person that has the highest odds of survival. 
Unfortunately, oftentimes the odds of survival are in favor of younger patients... This is the very sad, cold, hard reality and I wish nobody would have to make a choice...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Looks like the testing is lagging again. Yesterday we were at 1472 cases and 67 deaths and today they're showing us up to 1524 cases (only up 52) and 79 deaths. Be interesting to see how the rest of the weeks shakes out.


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## loosie

Just last night leaned about the cat 5(! Big!) Cyclone that hit Vanuatu & apparently decimated the island of Santo particularly, among others. This interests me & saddens me particularly as my father went there for a year, a few years back, to get a sailing club up & running for the locals, and I & the kids went there for a holiday. 

Why this is relevant to this thread is, they have nearly 300,000 population & subsist almost solely on tourism, particularly cruise ships, and have particularly poor health services at the best of times - approx only 20 beds in the main hospital in Port Vila and only 2 ventilators. They have thankfully so far remained free of confirmed cases(tho have no idea how many tests...) But it would be.... Very very bad if it broke out in this poor & isolated nation. It is already going to be extreme, economically, without tourism to keep them (just) afloat.

Due to cyclone Harold, those who had been in isolation from overseas before their borders closed(eg. Some westerners that were O/s & live there, some school kids who boarded in Sydney Australia, some locals who were over here for fruit picking work & so on) were taken home, for their safety, before 14 days were up. 

So.... Thinking not only of poor Vanuatu but of other poor Pacific nations who are in the same sort of situation(barring the cyclone). Fiji for eg apparently has 16 confirmed cases...


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## Jolien

SwissMiss said:


> Unfortunately, some hospitals have to triage as in a war zone. There are not enough resources to treat everyone and some extremely hard decisions have to be made. If you have several patients that need a ventilator now and you have only _one_ available, you will have to make a choice... And the choice will be for the person that has the highest odds of survival.
> Unfortunately, oftentimes the odds of survival are in favor of younger patients... This is the very sad, cold, hard reality and I wish nobody would have to make a choice...





I know... Everybody wants to live. I am glad now that I am young and serving the economy, but one day I will be old and I know maybe they will choose a younger person over me... That's just so weird to think about...


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Here's something I don't understand. Most people miss going to church Sunday, especially Easter Sunday in a few days.
Years ago there were tent revivals. We're having nice weather here. Why not bring your own chairs, have them 10 feet apart.
A tent or just on lawn (not rain of course).

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## loosie

^ Probably because a) it's still a big group in relative close proximity, so still a bit of a risk and b) perhaps more to the point, people often cannot be trusted to do the right thing, - esp as lots of religious people seem to believe that their god will protect them from getting the disease - so they've had to ban a lot of things that would be safe IF people were sensible about it.


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## BzooZu

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Here's something I don't understand. Most people miss going to church Sunday, especially Easter Sunday in a few days.
> Years ago there were tent revivals. We're having nice weather here. Why not bring your own chairs, have them 10 feet apart.
> A tent or just on lawn (not rain of course).
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


Our priest are doing all their usual stuff - its just through the internet or even TV - because our churches have been closed for at least a month now. Its a bit funny to see all those priests in their living rooms but eh, anything that keeps people happy is good.


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## Hondo

Jolien said:


> but I find it slightly disturbing that there seems to be a tendency (in several countries) to help younger people first



I wonder if at least part of this could be for the natural human tenancy to be protective toward the young. Most other animals have this trait also.


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## Spanish Rider

*IMPORTANT: *

New COVID19 symptoms are being seen by dermatologists here in Spain, especially among teens & children. These include hives/urticaria and edema/redness/blisters on fingers and toes.


Also, there is a new study underway in South Korea of 51 patients who were 'cured', tested negative, and had recurrences. Their 'CDC' is considering these cases "possible reactivations".
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-reactivate-in-cured-patients-korean-cdc-says


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Spanish Rider said:


> *IMPORTANT: *
> 
> New COVID19 symptoms are being seen by dermatologists here in Spain, especially among teens & children. These include hives/urticaria and edema/redness/blisters on fingers and toes.
> 
> 
> Also, there is a new study underway in South Korea of 51 patients who were 'cured', tested negative, and had recurrences. Their 'CDC' is considering these cases "possible reactivations".
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-reactivate-in-cured-patients-korean-cdc-says


Sounds like maybe they jumped the gun and released a bunch of folks too soon. That's just a gut feeling, not based on any scientific data.


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## SilverMaple

Spanish Rider said:


> *IMPORTANT: *
> 
> New COVID19 symptoms are being seen by dermatologists here in Spain, especially among teens & children. These include hives/urticaria and edema/redness/blisters on fingers and toes.
> 
> 
> Also, there is a new study underway in South Korea of 51 patients who were 'cured', tested negative, and had recurrences. Their 'CDC' is considering these cases "possible reactivations".
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-reactivate-in-cured-patients-korean-cdc-says



Another theory is that this coronavirus may be more similar to Lyme/HIV in the sense that you never really get over it. You can 'tamp it down' to the point where it's undetectable, but in times of stress or for whatever reason, it can flare again.


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## Spanish Rider

> Sounds like maybe they jumped the gun and released a bunch of folks too soon. That's just a gut feeling, not based on any scientific data.


Yeah, that was my feeling, too, but South Korea has shown extremely good patient management and population control throughout the pandemic. Lots more testing than most countries, too, so I'll be interested to see what comes of the study.


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## Spanish Rider

There is news today from the Justice Ministry that the number of death certificates issued do not add up to the Government's death estimate of 15,238 deaths. That number *DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR APPROXIMATELY 10,000 DEATHS.
*


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

And we're up to 1684 cases with 80 deaths. Yet, they're furloughing healthcare workers and shutting down facilities. OK has one of the highest death rates due to CV19 in the nation, yet they are furloughing healthcare workers? Something stinks in Denmark.


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## boots

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> And we're up to 1684 cases with 80 deaths. Yet, they're furloughing healthcare workers and shutting down facilities. OK has one of the highest death rates due to CV19 in the nation, yet they are furloughing healthcare workers? Something stinks in Denmark.


Not all healthcare workers have the training to work in isolation units. Or treat people with respiratory issues. 

OB and Ortho, plastic surgeons and general surgeons, and all their support staff come to mind.


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## 281187

SilverMaple said:


> Yes, unfortunately... if a 75 y.o. patient who has been a contributing member of society his whole life, and a 35 y.o. patient who is a deadbeat drain on society are both vying for a ventilator, the younger person will get it.


I suppose it depends on what one considers a "deadbeat drain on society" YMMV. Some people would call me myself such a thing because I've never held an actual job.... because I was born with a disability that prevents my being able to hold down most jobs.

--------

For the record, both of my parents are in the high risk category for this virus. My mother is immunocompromised.... and she's a health care worker! My father has several underlying health conditions and his job requires him to travel often and usually all around the world ((Not that he's been doing much of that lately)).


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## ACinATX

I'm personally really impressed by our school district's response. They cancelled classes after spring break and said they'd have an online curriculum in three weeks -- and they did. They have been handing out school lunches to any child who shows up at the drop spots. They have distributed chrome books and wifi hotspots to kids who needed them. They have parked school buses in locations where lots of kids don't have wifi, and are using them to make wifi hotspots. They are going to be setting up special in-person schools for the children of essential workers, although they haven't said yet what measures they will take to keep those kids healthy. All spring classes are now pass / fail, and failing means summer school, not being held back a year. They've cancelled standardized testing.

I was prompted to write this because they just came and knocked on the door. There was someone driving around in a school bus handing out computers. Even though I responded that I didn't need one, they still came. And it's a BIG school district.

At this point, it is looking like the rest of this semester is going to be online. I'm guessing that's probably also the case in most places...?


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## carshon

Our local school district will not have classes in school again this year. My daughter is a JR at a University 6 1/2 hours away. She is self isolating on campus but all of her classes are on -line for the remainder of the semester. She has had some professors change curriculum and the # of tests given due to the virus and the unfortunate fact that even though these are 3rd and 4th level college courses a lot of the students are not signing into the on-line lectures and basically just dropping out of class.


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## tinyliny

SilverMaple said:


> Yes, unfortunately... if a 75 y.o. patient who has been a contributing member of society his whole life, and a 35 y.o. patient who is a deadbeat drain on society are both vying for a ventilator, the younger person will get it.
> 
> 
> 
> This causes me no end of stress; my parents are ones that will be badly affected if they get this, and the thought of either or both of them dying alone in the back hallway of a hospital while they gasp for breath and their lungs fill with fluid because the ventilator was given to a younger person keeps me up at night.





Doctors , faced with having to do triage, do not make judgements based on who has more value to society, but rather on who has a greater likelihood to survive WITH the care that they can offer.


Remember, triage has three parts;


1. those that will likely die no matter what we are currently capable of offering them


2. those that will survive even if we give them no/little assistance right now.


3. those that will likely survive if we give them current levels of treatment.


that is the ONLY thing the medical professional is allowed to consider in triage. Not societal value.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Horsef said:


> If it’s any consolation, I don’t think those protocols work on “net usefulness” but rather on using available resources on patients with highest chances. In this particular case it worked out that it is the elderly who have the bleakest prognosis, unfortunately. I hope these protocols were only used for a short time and on a limited bases, in dire circumstances. Our doctors are throwing everything they’ve got at elderly patients.


I do agree 100% if a life saving decision has to be made between a young person with their whole life ahead of them and an elderly who already has a few major health problems then common sense would prevail.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## loosie

*MOD NOTE*

Things are getting political here again & may need editing.

Please all, remember to adhere to the 'no political discussions' rule.

Carry on.


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## loosie

To @Jolien & @Fuddyduddy can you imagine being a doctor, with limited supplies, knowing you cannot save(or even try to) everyone? Can you imagine having to make these choices?? These poor doctors will be haunted by this as long as they live, regardless of who they must just let die, regardless whether they are acting on best morals...


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## 281187

loosie said:


> To @Jolien & @Fuddyduddy can you imagine being a doctor, with limited supplies, knowing you cannot save(or even try to) everyone? Can you imagine having to make these choices?? These poor doctors will be haunted by this as long as they live, regardless of who they must just let die, regardless whether they are acting on best morals...


Becoming a health care worker isn't for the faint of heart. Those who pursue medicine in any capacity learn early on that it simply _isn't_ possible to save everyone and that difficult decisions will have to be made *everyday*. Those who can't come to terms with those things typically drop out, some make it further through schooling than others. 

Regardless, providing medical care is still a very tough job emotionally ((And physically!)). As a profession, it has a pretty high suicide rate unfortunately. It's not uncommon for health care workers to have PTSD or some other form of trauma either. 

My mother ((A Nurse of 30 something _years_)) has told me some truly harrowing tales, her own preferred niche is pediatrics *AKA* _children_.


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## tinyliny

loosie said:


> *MOD NOTE*
> 
> Things are getting political here again & may need editing.
> 
> Please all, remember to adhere to the 'no political discussions' rule.
> 
> Carry on.





Perhaps you could point out specifically what is political, and what is not. I feel like all , or at least many of us, are delving into the political on the edges at least. It's kind of unavoildable, considering this IS in many ways a political situtions. So, in order to help, where IS the line? Is it naming parties? or ?


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## Horsef

loosie said:


> To @Jolien & @Fuddyduddy can you imagine being a doctor, with limited supplies, knowing you cannot save(or even try to) everyone? Can you imagine having to make these choices?? These poor doctors will be haunted by this as long as they live, regardless of who they must just let die, regardless whether they are acting on best morals...


A long time ago I spoke to an acquaintance who was a surgeon. There was alcohol involved so we got around to topics not considered polite at the dinner table. One thing he said which stood out to me and I still remember it today is that his specialty are very high mortality surgeries (I want to say aneurysms but I could well be mistaken) and that he doesn’t see it as loosing 9 out of 10 patients, he sees it as clawing that one patient back from the dead.

I think that doctors develop coping mechanisms and I hope most of them manage to see that even though they lost some people and had to make unthinkable decisions, if it wasn’t for them a lot of the people who survived would have been dead.


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## loosie

Horsef said:


> I think that it is very early days for scientists to give such answers with a large degree of certainty. I think they will find some very specific cases in which the virus might be airborne. Car washes or steam baths come to mind.


I am sorry that, surfing in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep, I can't tell you where I saw this, or details, but I think they said it was a Dutch study which has just shown that even when outside(ie jogging in a park) that people breathing heavily, such as in exercise, if the wind is going in the right direction, can infect others more than a few feet away.


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## loosie

Horsef said:


> Would I be fine if I ate cooked broccoli? Very likely. Does it cost me anything to eat caned peas instead? No. So caned peas it is for us.


In the short term, this will not 'cost' you anything, but it will in the long term, due to nutritional deficiency. If you can get fresh frozen veg, that would be better at least. And then you can wash the bags before putting in freezer.

Which reminds me to ask, is there any info to suggest the virus can survive longer if refrigerated or frozen??

But I understood the virus can only survive for a couple of days on surfaces. So while I am indeed careful with fresh produce - if I can't wash it in soapy water, such as broccoli, etc, then I will leave it in the bag for at least 3 days before using. Or ensure it's well cooked - I also understood extreme heat will kill it, so I won't eat raw broccoli, cauli, mushrooms etc for the time being, unless they're homegrown.


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## Acadianartist

loosie said:


> I am sorry that, surfing in the middle of the night when I couldn't sleep, I can't tell you where I saw this, or details, but I think they said it was a Dutch study which has just shown that even when outside(ie jogging in a park) that people breathing heavily, such as in exercise, if the wind is going in the right direction, can infect others more than a few feet away.


Here's the study @loosie: 

https://medium.com/@jurgenthoelen/b...fGVrkrL4vz7ydu9zBwVF-a-2_Y32_biQDvPLseV42XAyg


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## Horsef

boots said:


> Not all healthcare workers have the training to work in isolation units. Or treat people with respiratory issues.
> 
> OB and Ortho, plastic surgeons and general surgeons, and all their support staff come to mind.


Well, given a choice between no intubation or a plastic surgeon doing it, I say let the plastic surgeon watch a YouTube video and wing it. I guess one then runs into insurance and lawsuit issues but if it was me, I would be greatfull.


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## loosie

tinyliny said:


> Perhaps you could point out specifically what is political, and what is not. I feel like all , or at least many of us, are delving into the political on the edges at least. It's kind of unavoildable, considering this IS in many ways a political situtions. So, in order to help, where IS the line? Is it naming parties? or ?


Yeah, appreciated that to some degree, bringing politics into it seems unavoidable sometimes. I don't believe I have to 'point out specifically what is political'(discussion) as people seem to understand that well enough. We just need to use our own discretion I think, and you're all still, for the vast majority, doing very well at that. Just... keep it up!

And OT discussions, as per Farmpony's earlier reminder, such as who is/isn't 'of value to society' also need to be avoided(& we have removed some) - this thread is well over the 1000 posts mark...


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## Horsef

loosie said:


> In the short term, this will not 'cost' you anything, but it will in the long term, due to nutritional deficiency. If you can get fresh frozen veg, that would be better at least. And then you can wash the bags before putting in freezer.


I think it takes a lot longer for nutritional deficiency to take hold in healthy adults but we are taking vitamins in pill form just in case. If it looks like it will take a lot longer than three more weeks, I’ll order a new freezer. We only have a small one because we don’t typically use it. That’s the main reason I didn’t buy frozen vegetables but I agree, frozen vegetables and fruit would be easier to handle than fresh in this situation and they have a lot of benefits.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

boots said:


> Not all healthcare workers have the training to work in isolation units. Or treat people with respiratory issues.
> 
> OB and Ortho, plastic surgeons and general surgeons, and all their support staff come to mind.


If the fecal content hits the wind moving machines as they are predicting, I suspect they'll be sorry they didn't double down and do a bunch of in services to bring those who aren't certified to do those things up to snuff rather than sending them home to go out and do Locum work for other agencies or to stay at home and draw unemployment. 

The way they are doing the furloughs have absolutely nothing to do with credentialing though, they've just shut down entire complexes and sent all the employees and providers home. Some of the providers are cardiac surgeons, thoracic and respiratory specialists, anesthesiologists, RNs, LVNs, LPNs, and ancillary staff.


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## gottatrot

I understand people want to be careful but I really hate to hear of people avoiding eating fresh foods. The reason it is good to wash your hands is because you could touch contaminated food and then touch mucous membranes. It is not because eating food is dangerous. 

Of course virus particles are found in human stool. Have you ever been sick and thought no drainage from your nose made it into your digestive system? Of course some always gets swallowed. 
This virus is new but still is a respiratory virus, which we have studied for years. 

One clue is the R0 number which seems similar to other droplet transmission viruses. Infectious diseases spread by fecal-oral routes (like c-dif) have much higher infection rates. Airborne spread diseases like measles or tb also have much higher R0 numbers. 

Even if the virus has not been fully studied there are scientific reasons why we are not being told to stop eating fresh produce or to wear airborne respirators at the store instead of paper or cloth masks, which microscopic airborne particles can pass right through.


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## Horse girl 07

So much has changed since last time I logged in here. I am so happy my mom is home from the rehab and no cases in the nursing home rehab facility. New York State -they say is possibly leveling off with amount cases but to soon to say. . Just in my county alone from one case to 17,000 cases in one month and same in the next county over 18,000 cases in a months time. New rules are implanted weekly. Only essential businesses operating. Some food stores will not let you in if you are not wearing any kind of face mask and it’s only any kind because lack of supply I assume. I don’t know why it took so long for this rule and people need something to make them feel safe and keep others safe. I am happy to say medial workers are finally getting there needed equipment. Highschools are cancelling major exams and readjusting graduation requirements. I don’t think they will be returning to school this spring. Sounds so strange to write this. I am still avoiding all stores these next few weeks. Private local markets and butchers are not crowded and many may bring things out to your car if you order by phone. This still all feels like a really bad dream. If I forget for a moment that dread feeling returns. It’s the unknown that gets me. Thank god for all the animals keeping us entertained. Watching only comedies or horse movies. Glad to see many are well prayers for everyone. This to shall pass. In regards to droplets and aresol a good video with Dr. Faucci. 
https://youtu.be/F2YKKba6ps0


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## boots

@Dreamcatcher Arabians - That seems so odd. Unless it's because hospitals are postponing so-called elective surgeries. I worry about some of the people who have had things postponed. Some didn't sound very elective. But I'm not a doctor.
@gottatrot - In some ways I'm more afraid of contacting c-diff or TB (which isn't uncommon in some places in my region) than I am this virus! 

I don't understand the fear of fresh produce since this pandemic started, either.
@Horse girl 07 - I'm glad your mom is home from rehab!


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## AuG

This virus just proves the gap between wealth and poverty is much too wide. Much of what people are upset about sacrificing is stuff a lot of people never had access to in the first place. Fresh food is a great example.


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## Horse girl 07

@boots thank you not the easiest times to heal but glad she can and is on her way to recovery.


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## loosie

*MOD NOTE... AGAIN!*

To all & sundry,

It seems that some are unclear about our 'stand' on political discussion here. And considering that we have not really allowed _any_ political comments at all on the forum previously... I'll have a go at clarifying the mud! 

**While us mods have all discussed this matter at times during the progression of the thread, so I think I'm on a level with the gist of all, I want to first make it clear these are _my personal comments_, not a 'spiel' discussed & agreed on by us all - I felt it was important, given some members confusion about it, to 'get it out there' ASAP.

As said previously, we appreciate that to ban all politics from this particular thread would be near impossible. I think it would destroy the thread, and as someone else said, we all need somewhere friendly & respectful to voice the important matters. So IMHO, just respect that we don't want this incredibly valuable thread to turn into a political mess. Try to avoid mention of politics unless it seems important/relevant to do so, & 'agree to differ' if it comes to that, please don't start political debates. And we mods will try to remain, as usual, fair & reasonable about what we might find needs editing. Assuming we can keep up with the HUGE & fast moving thread!

So... emphasising again, speaking personally, not on 'official' behalf of the rest of the mod team, the way I see it, there IS no hard & fast 'line' but just 'go easy'. As usual though, everyone is basically being respectful & doing well on that front, so just keep it up! 

And again, considering it's already a... rambling monster of a thread, please try hard to refrain from going off on tangents too.

Respectfully
Loosie


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## Jolien

loosie said:


> To @*Jolien* & @Fuddyduddy can you imagine being a doctor, with limited supplies, knowing you cannot save(or even try to) everyone? Can you imagine having to make these choices?? These poor doctors will be haunted by this as long as they live, regardless of who they must just let die, regardless whether they are acting on best morals...





yeah, I know. It's a horrible responsibility. Nobody is at fault here. People on an individual level are trying to do whatever they think is right. Most people care for eachother and others. We all have compassion. 

I am a teacher and I really hammer on respect for everyone, no racism, no sexism and an open mind... I am sure the youngsters often get sick of my idealism, but okay...  Most kids are essentially good, they're just kids... I think they grow up to be mostly good adults.  People are really helping eachother out where we live... We went grocery shopping for our elderly neigbours and my coworkers are emailing and texting to see if we are okay <3


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

boots said:


> @Dreamcatcher Arabians - That seems so odd. Unless it's because hospitals are postponing so-called elective surgeries. I worry about some of the people who have had things postponed. Some didn't sound very elective. But I'm not a doctor.


Yes, I agree, some of the so called elective surgeries that have been postponed have me scratching my head and saying, "HUH?":think::think:

They have campuses where there's a hospital that may or may not offer emergency services, ORs, Recovery suites, medical offices, radiology, ekg, respiratory therapy, and probably a state lab. Those buildings have been shut up and everyone except for emergency services (if available) sent home, regardless of qualifications or skill set. They've said they anticipate this lasting for roughly 6 weeks _"unless the wave hits"_ at which point everyone will be expected to return to work. My thought is, they've got a highly trained cadre of people who, with very little additional training, could be useful on the floor (not necessarily icu), step down units, emergency room, doing tele medicine, or triage. If you furlough them all and they have no working hours on the books, some of them will take their sought after skills and accept a 30 day Locum contract and go out of state or area and if the next wave hits, then when you call them back, they'll say, "Sorry, no can do. I took a contract to keep food on the table.".


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## Hondo

Confusing.........


CDC says the main transmission is person to person through exhaled "droplets".


CDC says eating contaminated food does not appear to result in transmission.


CDC says to wash hands as a contaminated hand touching mouth may result in transmission.


So why does touching the mouth with contaminated hand matter when touching mouth with contaminated food not matter?


----------



## Acadianartist

@Hondo... these are the things we know


----------



## Spanish Rider

Here, they cancelled all elective (non-emergency) surgeries as well as diagnostic testing March 15th. My son had bloodwork scheduled on the 20th and thoracoabdominal CT scan w/ contrast scheduled for the 26th, which were both cancelled and not re-scheduled. 

It is most likely an adrenal or a renal vascular problem, and he likely needs surgery (stent placement or tumor removal). He has daily headaches, palpitations and sometimes upper abdominal or chest pain. I try not to think about it, because it's really too much to bear.


----------



## Dragoon

Hondo: My best guess is,
Eating the virus kills it. We digest it. Our stomach acid is powerful.

Random touching of mouth, nose, or eyes does not involve chewing and swallowing. It lingers to penetrate mucous membranes. 

As Gottatrot reminded us, it is a respiratory disease. 
This makes me feel relatively confident about bringing home food, and eating it. But I would not put my face into the bag and inhale on a bet!


----------



## egrogan

@*Spanish Rider* , I really hope you will get some certainty about next steps for your son soon. 

Our governor had a press conference today and extended the stay-at-home order until May15th. We've only had 23 deaths here, total, but I'm guessing our proximity to NY state and the number of metro NYC second home owners must have factored in.


----------



## Jolien

Dragoon said:


> Hondo: My best guess is,
> Eating the virus kills it. We digest it. Our stomach acid is powerful.
> 
> Random touching of mouth, nose, or eyes does not involve chewing and swallowing. It lingers to penetrate mucous membranes.
> 
> As Gottatrot reminded us, it is a respiratory disease.
> This makes me feel relatively confident about bringing home food, and eating it. But I would not put my face into the bag and inhale on a bet!



our government told us it dies at 65 degrees celsius so in heated food it shouldn't survive. I am not really sure this is true though... A virus is essentially a 'dead' code of dna that starts to 'program' itsself when it finds the right environment, no??


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Best to wear goggles and clothspin on nose when eating. 
We just returned from Dollar store after a 3 hour wait there for TP. Police were there to maintain order.
My Drs. office called for my annual check up...this time a "virtual examination". We don't have a computer, all I have is my phone. They said that will work. 
Should be interesting, especially my prostate exam.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## Spanish Rider

My husband's uncle just died from Covid.

He also has a cousin in his 40s with it, 20 days of fever and pneumonia. And a niece with a mild case. Another uncle in his 70s has recovered.


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## tinyliny

Hondo said:


> Confusing.........
> 
> 
> CDC says the main transmission is person to person through exhaled "droplets".
> 
> 
> CDC says eating contaminated food does not appear to result in transmission.
> 
> 
> CDC says to wash hands as a contaminated hand touching mouth may result in transmission.
> 
> 
> So why does touching the mouth with contaminated hand matter when touching mouth with contaminated food not matter?





I've been wondering about this, too.


----------



## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> My husband's uncle just died from Covid.
> 
> He also has a cousin in his 40s with it, 20 days of fever and pneumonia. And a niece with a mild case. Another uncle in his 70s has recovered.


I am very sorry for your loss.


----------



## Horsef

Jolien said:


> our government told us it dies at 65 degrees celsius so in heated food it shouldn't survive. I am not really sure this is true though... A virus is essentially a 'dead' code of dna that starts to 'program' itsself when it finds the right environment, no??


I think that the lipid and protein “cell membrane” of the virus gets destroyed at high temperatures so the virus can’t enter host cells. (Lipids are also disrupted by soap, that’s a part of why soap works). It has a mechanism of attaching its protein protrusions to specific cells so that those cells allow it to enter. That’s the reason you cannot get it through skin - our skin cells don’t have the right receptors. The RNA cannot just waltz into any cell on its own. Some research is directed at trying to find a “cap” for those proteins to neutralize the virus. Also, there is a theory that a common high blood pressure medication exposes more of our “host” cells in the lung epithelium, that’s why those patients are at high risk.

This is my layman’s understanding of how it works. Please correct me if I’m wrong.


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## egrogan

Very sorry for your loss @Spanish Rider.


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## Acadianartist

Spanish Rider said:


> My husband's uncle just died from Covid.
> 
> He also has a cousin in his 40s with it, 20 days of fever and pneumonia. And a niece with a mild case. Another uncle in his 70s has recovered.


I'm so sorry.


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## RegalCharm

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> My Drs. office called for my annual check up...this time a "virtual examination". We don't have a computer, all I have is my phone. They said that will work.
> Should be interesting, especially my prostate exam.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


All I can say is Buy a BIG TUBE of K-Y Jelly. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

PS hope you have a small flip phone.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Spanish Rider said:


> My husband's uncle just died from Covid.
> 
> He also has a cousin in his 40s with it, 20 days of fever and pneumonia. And a niece with a mild case. Another uncle in his 70s has recovered.


I'm so sorry for your loss. Praying for a quick and full recovery for your other 2 family members and praying no more get it it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

They haven't updated the numbers yet this morning, but we'll be up close to 1900 cases today. Had 88 deaths as of yesterday. STILL having trouble getting tested, despite the governor setting up 70 mobile testing sites and saying we have plenty of tests now. Hospital beds, ICU beds and ventilators seem to be in good supply, the actual "surge" has not hit Oklahoma yet. We have close to 450 hospitalized. 

Must be common core math: 

Number of tests done = 22, 370
Number of negative results = 20, 370
Number of positive results = 1, 800

What happened to the rest?


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## tinyliny

@Horsef


I just loved this: "the RNA cannot just waltz into any cell on its own."


the imagery is amusing.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

RegalCharm said:


> All I can say is Buy a BIG TUBE of K-Y Jelly. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> PS hope you have a small flip phone.


Unfortunately it's a 1920s candlestick 









Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## boots

@Spanish Rider - I'm sorry for your loss.

In my practice I'm surprised how well telehealth is working. We therapists are not being reimbursed for sessions. We're hoping for a little. Not really. We're hoping to get reimbursed at our regular rate, but...

Anyway, people need treatment so we're doing it. It's a big challenge for CNAs and nurses to learn to do some of the things we ask. They apologize and I joke about what it would be like for them to teach some of us therapists via a video to do some of their procedures. 

But, the few that I'm treating via telehealth are improving. 

One person, at their first session, I caught with their thumbs in their ears, wiggling their fingers, and their tongue out. I laughed and asked what they would doing. The person responded, "Just checking whether you could really see me." 

Too cute.


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## tinyliny

@boots. remind what sort of health professional you are, please.


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## boots

tinyliny said:


> @boots. remind what sort of health professional you are, please.


Occupational therapist with additional certification in dysphagia and respiration. Who thought those last two were a good idea? lol 

Just kidding. I don't regret it.


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## Spanish Rider

Another novelty:

We have received a link to watch our uncle's funeral mass online at 1 pm. The mass will be offered by his local priest, alone in the church, and Cecilio will be named along will other C-19 victims of his parish who also died on Friday.

His three children will be allowed in the cemetery, with masks, and they will be able to watch the burial from their cars. (By law, only one person is allowed in a car at a time for the past 3 weeks). The burials are alloted 10 minutes each. Sounds like a fast-food drive-up window arrangement.


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## Spanish Rider

Our new infection, hospitalization and death rates have been slowly dropping this week. I haven't wanted to say anything to not jinx it.

Now, our 'government' has decided to allow certain non-essential workers back to work tomorrow, so we are expecting a second wave of infections in 1-2 weeks, while still reeling from the first wave.

It is absolutely insane. They are requiring employers to provide protective masks and gloves for workers, yet even the government itself has not been able to provide enough PPE for healthcare workers in hospitals.

The Madrid metro is also being re-opened tomorrow, and supposedly Civil Protection Units will be handing out masks to users.

At least other countries running a week or two behind Spain will be able to see the results of whether this little experiment in 'getting back to normal' works or not.


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## Horsef

Serbia: We are currently on complete lockdown. No one is allowed out at all. It’s been on since Friday 5PM and ends tomorrow at 4AM. It’s been rather strange, not seeing anyone outside and not hearing any traffic. But I guess they had to do it. People just wouldn’t sit still. And the weather has been glorious. Even with this full lockdown, they caught a group of 40 people having a barbecue at a popular nature reserve just outside the city. 

A friend of mine has been sleeping in her car at her yard since Friday as she isn’t allowed to get to her horses when the lockdown is in effect. She’s got running water (cold) but that’s about it. Some volunteers have had to camp at private horse and dog rescues as well.

Our numbers are holding steady, around 250 new cases every day, around 3800 so far. 80 deaths. So it isn’t dropping just yet but it’s not exploding either. 

Because they are doing contact tracing, they are finding a lot of asymptomatic patients - around 40%. And a lot of people have mild symptoms only. Out of 3800, 141 are currently on respirators and around 1100 are in proper hospitals. The rest have been interned in containment facilities until they get two negative results.

Another thing I noticed is that when they get a positive patient at a non-Covid hospital, there is usually 20 to 40 medical staff that get infected but very few other patients. Usually, the medical staff is either asymptomatic (most of them) or has very light symptoms. Very few of them had a difficult outcome. I am not sure what exactly that means but I found it intriguing.

Ou politicians are also making noises about reducing the lockdown towards the end of April.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Oklahoma State population: 3.9 million 

Positive cases today: 1970
Deaths: 96
Hospitalizations: 453
Our models have should roughly 50/50 from in patient hospital to ICU/Vent dependent cases, so probably around 225 ICU/Vent cases 

I'm noticing a lot of what you're talking about Horsef, even though we've shown social distancing works probably better than any other method of shutting down the spread, people just will not do it. The grocery stores have started restricting the numbers allowed in at any one time, trying to get people to stay 6 ft apart. You still have the looky loos that think that everyone else should hurry up and follow their grocery lists but THEY will take their sweet time and mosey up and down every aisle looking for whatever strikes their fancy. 

Of course, here, they will not do a total lockdown and put everyone inside their homes or into facilities. That would be considered a MAJOR breach of our constitutional rights. It's always amazing to me how every one thinks that being kept from spreading disease is a violation of their rights and no one thinks of the person who is perhaps compromised and has the right to be spared from exposure to the disease. But that may be tippy toeing too close to the political line, so I'll stop there.


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## Horsef

@Dreamcatcher Arabians I don’t think that is a political discussion (I apologize if I misunderstood). Some populations will allow themselves to be bolted shut, others will not. It’s just a fact of life and whoever is in charge of organizing a crisis response has a duty to take this into account and not make it worse by being too heavy handed and causing civil disobedience. 

Our 65+ population has been on a 24/7 lockdown for a month - Wuhan style. They aren’t even allowed to throw out their garbage - they leave it outside their front door with a sticker asking their neighbors to do it. They have been very patient and compliant because they are aware of how much risk there is.

I don’t think this would be that easy to pull off with young people in our population and I don’t think that we have enough police to enforce something like that. China had an almost limitless supply of policing resources as they could pull them in from other provinces.

Even Italy struggled to keep young people in until they finally realized that they could be next. 

One thing our politicians and doctors somehow failed to foresee (I am struggling to understand how) is that people would avoid getting medical help because they would want to avoid containment facilities. So now we are getting younger people dying because they only come in when it’s too late. We’ve only had a handful of such cases but enough for doctors to get worried about it. 

I have to say that I don’t envy the politicians who are trying to keep this together and moving forward. It is a very fine line between widespread panic and just keeping people on alert.

I am still not sure if these overnight lockdowns are a good thing. People feel confined and start milling about as soon as the are allowed to. Maybe they would find it easier to sit still if they felt in control of their lives.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Horsef said:


> [MENTION=19348]Maybe they would find it easier to sit still if they felt in control of their lives.


I think you may have hit it with that sentence, Horsef. I find it interesting that people are feeling so out of control. The so called, "shelter in place" restrictions don't change my day to day life very much at all. 

I still get up everyday and go feed the critters, clean the barn and the chicken coop and then come in to the house and feed the pups and then myself. Then I start on laundry & cleaning house. About 4 pm, I start dinner, go out feed horses & chickens and put everybody away for the evening. Then I go in and feed the pups and then myself. Then I clean up after dinner and THEN I get to sit down and read for a little while. I go to the feed store and the people feed store every 2 weeks. I have a list, get in, get out, get home get unloaded, and put stuff away. Rinse repeat. 

If I worked outside of the home I'd add, go to work for 8 hrs/day and then come home and do the chores. It's all pretty well lined out for me. What the social distancing has done for me, is to make my somewhat anti-social tendencies ok. I don't feel the need to go out and be social, I stay home and just do my thing. It's actually pretty nice. I have a little extra time on the computer if I want it, but it's not required. 

I kind of feel that those who are really having anxiety are probably listening to/watching/reading too much media coverage and buying into the panic that they're selling. I'm not downplaying the virus, not at all, I am saying the media has done their very level best to stir up a .......storm of worries and anxieties and all their yelling at the top of their lungs doesn't help peoples nerves one bit. I was watching a press conference the other day and had to shut it off because the reporters were behaving so badly. I found myself wishing I was there in person and could just walk down the line stuffing something into their mouths and slapping faces. I finally was riled up enough that I shut it off and went out and groomed a couple of horses. Haven't turned the TV on since. It's been much more peaceful.


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## tinyliny

I'm sure it is partially political in terms of how one views the actual danger of the disease, and the value of one's personal sacrifices to society.


I've lived in Japan, a society that places a high value on what is good for SOCIETY more than what is good for the individual. It can sound like something out of "1984" to many Americans, but it's not like that at all. People have personal freedoms, but ethics strongly push them to make decisions views as good for their group. It can be harsh, but it also leads to a highly functioning society where everyone benefits. Things work. Crime is rare, things are clean, reliable, people are polite and pleasant to be around. It is not nearly as bad as some like to paint it.
We Americans could learn a lot from that.


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## trailhorserider

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> What the social distancing has done for me, is to make my somewhat anti-social tendencies ok. I don't feel the need to go out and be social, I stay home and just do my thing. It's actually pretty nice.


This is how I feel too_ except_ I am getting very stressed when I do go to the store, about every week or so. I tend to have anxiety anyway, but now I get all stressed about catching something at the store and bringing it back home to my older parents. The more "rules" in place, the more anxious I get. For instance, a neighbor mentioned that now Safeway is only allowing a certain number of people into the store (and I guess Walmart is doing that too) and there are actually lines to get in. Sigh. I am SO dreading going to either store now. I feel rushed. I rush through the store, try to grab what's on my list and get out as quickly as I can while not touching my face or touching too many common surfaces. Check-out-lines are hell for me......because you always have to touch something, money, key pad, whatever, and then you can't take time to sanitize before touching your cart or groceries because you have a big line of people waiting behind you). 

If I didn't have to go to the store, I would actually be happy as a clam. Because I live with my parents so I'm not truly alone, and I rarely socialize with other people at all, except maybe to go riding with someone. I don't miss restaurants, I don't go to bars or theaters or sports events. I just do my work from home and play with my horse. And it's a happy life. But the stress of getting groceries is really getting to me. And I still haven't seen a single roll of toilet paper for sale since this whole thing started.......


If I could have the "social distancing" without the need for groceries it would be perfect.


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## tinyliny

@trailhorserider
I think that catching the bug at the supermarket is very unlikely. If you stay 5 or 6 feet away, and if you don't touch your face at all, until you are home and hands washed, the chances of catching it are SO slim. It is best to slow down, stay calm and have things planned so it's kind of formulaic how you do things.


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## Aprilswissmiss

tinyliny said:


> @trailhorserider
> I think that catching the bug at the supermarket is very unlikely. If you stay 5 or 6 feet away, and if you don't touch your face at all, until you are home and hands washed, the chances of catching it are SO slim. It is best to slow down, stay calm and have things planned so it's kind of formulaic how you do things.


I respectfully disagree about it being very unlikely. I think grocery stores are the worst place you could be right now. Hundreds, if not thousands of people walk through the grocery store _every day_ and you don't know who has or has not touched, coughed on, sneezed on, spit on (all unintentionally and indirectly, of course), etc, the products, the carts, the card scanners... Being smart about what you expose yourself to makes a huge difference, but avoiding cross-contamination is very difficult, especially for people who do not have hands-on experience with aseptic technique.

I have worked in a microbiology lab for a few different classes, and you would be amazed at how little it takes in just a single touch to transmit an incredible amount of microbes. If you take a flamed loop (tiny metal wire) and tap it to any surface and then spread it around on an uncontaminated petri dish, that petri dish will light up like a christmas tree covered in bacteria in days. Of course, bacteria and viruses are two different things and viruses do not multiply without a host, _but_ the whole point is to show just how many microbes the edge of a tiny little thread of wire can pick up, let alone what your hands can pick up.

Cross-contamination is real. You touch everything in the store, and then you touch your purse, your wallet, your phone, your car door handle, your steering wheel, your radio buttons, your car lights lever... And most people would never think of wiping some of these things down. Then after you wash your hands, you go and touch some of those things again that are still contaminated, and suddenly there's no point. All it takes is one contact.

Is it possible to eliminate cross-contamination? Absolutely! But aseptic technique is very hard to perfect even for trained professionals in a controlled environment, let alone the average untrained person in an uncontrolled environment.


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## gottatrot

Horsef said:


> Also, there is a theory that a common high blood pressure medication exposes more of our “host” cells in the lung epithelium, that’s why those patients are at high risk.


I read an article reminding people of the normal process for publishing scientific research. A person normally would have a theory, write about it, then design a study. The limitations of the study are stated, then peers are given the chance to review and criticize. If it passes all that then a journal will publish it.
This all takes at least months. 

Currently, people are writing down theories or doing very limited, preliminary studies, and then the results are being published everywhere.

I've read about the theory mentioned, and it has been receiving harsh criticism on peer review. In normal times I do not think it would get attention. 

There is a ton of bad science going around right now. For example, in my area people are saying: "science" says that covid survives in our blood, which has salt in it. Therefore it can survive in the ocean. So it can float in the water for days and be aerosolized by ocean wave action, putting anyone on a beach at risk. 

The amount of water in an ocean and the priciples of dilution vs the amount of virus in the world would make this one obviously ridiculous. It is similar to the idea of being hit with a significant amount of virus from a distance in the wind outside, where updrafts, downdrafts, temperature changes, friction and gravity all are at play. It's like thinking you are more likely to hit a golf hole with a strong wind blowing behind you instead of less.

Agree that the issue with touching the mouth is related to the chances of the virus making it to nearby mucous membranes rather than being swallowed and killed by stomach acid. Uncooked food is safe to eat.


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## horselovinguy

trailhorserider said:


> Because I live with my parents so I'm not truly alone, and I rarely socialize with other people at all, except maybe to go riding with someone. I don't miss restaurants, I don't go to bars or theaters or sports events. But the stress of getting groceries is really getting to me. And I still haven't seen a single roll of toilet paper for sale since this whole thing started.......


If you have a local Walmart they will do shopping for you and deliver it to your car so you do not have to go inside the store at all.
Minimum purchase amount by me is $50, not hard to reach that amount. There are no "fees/charges" for this service..in fact by me this was being offered for near 9 months already and many were already using and loving the saved time letting someone else "shop".

All of this is available online and self explanatory.
You get to pick your items, quantity within reason including toilet paper, produce and deli items if your store has these.
If you need toiletries, soap, shampoo or such items they will get them too as well as certain clothing items.

You get to pick your p/u time and then a window is given of a hour so you are not waiting endlessly for your groceries.
It was weird to food shop and not walk a store but I am adjusting to this and will probably continue this practice for some time after we are cleared to resume our lives. 
Makes me nervous just thinking about going back in public to soon and what could happen.

So, you might be able to shop and not be inside a store lessening exposure chances.
More and more stores are offering this today, and many may continue this service after the lock-down is over just because we get accustomed to being served in a world of having done for us today.
Just thought I would let you know there might be options where you live you've not taken advantage of, yet. :wink:
:runninghorse2:...


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

trailhorserider said:


> T I am SO dreading going to either store now. I feel rushed. I rush through the store, try to grab what's on my list and get out as quickly as I can while not touching my face or touching too many common surfaces. Check-out-lines are hell for me......because you always have to touch something, money, key pad, whatever, and then you can't take time to sanitize before touching your cart or groceries because you have a big line of people waiting behind you).


Let me give you some of the things I do to minimize risk. I am 63 and have had asthma all my life, so I'm at risk. So is my husband who is a pump dependent diabetic. 

First, wear a mask of ANY kind, even just a bandana around your face. It's more of a "My mask protects you and your mask protects me" thing, by keeping droplets with their original person. Wear gloves. Slow down and breathe.

When you get to the store, wipe the "baby area" of your cart like you're detailing a car for NASCAR. Take a minute to do it thoroughly. Then take a couple of the sanitizer wipes into the store with you and wipe down every thing that comes in a package. It only takes a second and will at least protect you a little bit. Set things you've wiped in one part of the cart and things you can't (fresh fruit/veg) in another. Them you'll either let self clean outside in the garage for a couple of days or you can do what we did in overseas when I was a kid. Wash it in a weak chlorine bleach water when you get home (more on that later). 

When you're picking out your fresh stuff, get your plastic bag FIRST and turn it inside out. Figure what you want and use the bag to pick it up and then turn it right side out without handling the produce. 

Don't dawdle, but make sure you get what you need from the store so you don't have to go back. I shop every 2 weeks and if I forget something, unless I have to go to town for something else, I just do without until I go back in 2 weeks. C'est la vie and it makes you a much more focused shopper. 

When you get in line, most of the stores I've been in lately have 6 ft tapes on the floor to help you space out. If in doubt, just remember, 1 horse or 2 ponies length and you're good. If someone tries to crowd you, ask them to back off. I haven't had that problem, I can give mare ears even wearing a mask. 

Once you're at the register, set everything down on the belt, then use hand sanitizer or one of your wipes to wipe one of your gloves. Then reach in your purse and pull out your wallet. I carry small hand sanitizers with me anyhow, so I pull that out at the same time. I use my debit or credit card to pay and when I'm done, I use the hand sanitizer or the wipe to wipe down my card, wave it dry and then put everything back in my purse, using only the clean hand or both if you sanitize them both. Take an extra shopping bag so you can dispose of the sanitizer wipes and your gloves when you're done unloading your cart. Load your groceries in your car/truck and when you're done, wipe down your door handles and steering wheel, dispose of all your wipes and your gloves and hand sanitize your hands before you touch the door or wheel. 

When you get home, go straight to your laundry area, change into clean clothes (or at least clean tshirt/shorts until you can shower) and drop the dirties in the washer, but don't start it until you have washed your hands & arms thoroughly with soap. 

Go unload the car/truck and put your produce to soak for about 20 mins in a weak (10% chlorine bleach water solution, or you could use Nolvasan (chlorhexidine) but it's expensive). Rinse them off and you'll also have the added benefit that they won't mildew very quickly either. When I was a kid living all over the world, Japan, Hong Kong, Malta, Italy, Sicily, Germany, India, we soaked our produce to avoid amoebic dysentery. If it can kill that stuff, I'm reasonably hopeful that it can fix the CV19 you might find on your produce. 

Tip about the gloves, take them off properly. Here's a video that shows how to remove them and not contaminate your hands. Regardless, hand sanitize before you touch your truck, then wash when you get home. 





To make the bleach wash mix 1 tsp/gallon of water. TBH, I'm probably doing more like 1 TBSP/gallon but tsp is what the article recommends. To be fair, they're also not advocating soaking for killing things like C Diff or CV 19, the TBSP is what we used growing up. Never made the produce taste off either. https://traditionalcookingschool.com/food-preparation/recipes/techniques-tutorials/a-handy-guide-for-washing-produce/

Take what you can use and forget the rest. I hope this will help you find your center a little bit at least.


----------



## tinyliny

Yeah. My remarks about super market is that you aren't likely to catch it IF you follow good protocol, and IF you stay clear of others, and wear a mask, and be sensible.


It's not THAT hard to keep cross contamination from happening. I wrote up a post about a specific sequence I used, and I'm pretty sure it works. I've been in isolation a month now, went to the Super 4 times, still doing fine. I do go when it's not crowded, so perhaps I'm not seeing how bad it can get.


I'm also 62, obese and asthmatic. Not a good combo.


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## SilverMaple

Our local Walmarts, grocery chains, etc. now will not give you toilet paper or other in-demand items with curbside--- those are 'in store purchases only'. So people have to go IN PERSON to stores, stand in line outside because if you're not there first thing in the morning, you have zero chance of getting any, and then when they miss out, they have to go do it all over again at another store. How is that keeping people home? It's not. And if you have a large family, the little 4-pack of cheap paper the smaller stores can sometimes get won't last you long, so you're still having to look elswhere, or hope you can score a pack every week.

We've been trying for three weeks to get a pickup time at a Walmart within an hour of us. No luck. They are only filling slots two days out, and new times come available very early in the morning. By the time it goes live and I click on a time, someone else has already claimed it and I'm out of luck. So we're stuck with going in person to the stores.


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## Horsef

gottatrot said:


> I read an article reminding people of the normal process for publishing scientific research. A person normally would have a theory, write about it, then design a study. The limitations of the study are stated, then peers are given the chance to review and criticize. If it passes all that then a journal will publish it.
> This all takes at least months.
> 
> Currently, people are writing down theories or doing very limited, preliminary studies, and then the results are being published everywhere.
> 
> I've read about the theory mentioned, and it has been receiving harsh criticism on peer review. In normal times I do not think it would get attention.
> 
> There is a ton of bad science going around right now. For example, in my area people are saying: "science" says that covid survives in our blood, which has salt in it. Therefore it can survive in the ocean. So it can float in the water for days and be aerosolized by ocean wave action, putting anyone on a beach at risk.
> 
> The amount of water in an ocean and the priciples of dilution vs the amount of virus in the world would make this one obviously ridiculous. It is similar to the idea of being hit with a significant amount of virus from a distance in the wind outside, where updrafts, downdrafts, temperature changes, friction and gravity all are at play. It's like thinking you are more likely to hit a golf hole with a strong wind blowing behind you instead of less.
> 
> Agree that the issue with touching the mouth is related to the chances of the virus making it to nearby mucous membranes rather than being swallowed and killed by stomach acid. Uncooked food is safe to eat.


Hear, hear!

I’ve been careful not to post any theories or “theories” - that one slipped through. Sorry

It could well be that cardiovascular patients have an altered immune response due to other reasons and medication has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Horsef

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I think you may have hit it with that sentence, Horsef. I find it interesting that people are feeling so out of control. The so called, "shelter in place" restrictions don't change my day to day life very much at all.
> 
> I still get up everyday and go feed the critters, clean the barn and the chicken coop and then come in to the house and feed the pups and then myself. Then I start on laundry & cleaning house. About 4 pm, I start dinner, go out feed horses & chickens and put everybody away for the evening. Then I go in and feed the pups and then myself. Then I clean up after dinner and THEN I get to sit down and read for a little while. I go to the feed store and the people feed store every 2 weeks. I have a list, get in, get out, get home get unloaded, and put stuff away. Rinse repeat.
> 
> If I worked outside of the home I'd add, go to work for 8 hrs/day and then come home and do the chores. It's all pretty well lined out for me. What the social distancing has done for me, is to make my somewhat anti-social tendencies ok. I don't feel the need to go out and be social, I stay home and just do my thing. It's actually pretty nice. I have a little extra time on the computer if I want it, but it's not required.
> 
> I kind of feel that those who are really having anxiety are probably listening to/watching/reading too much media coverage and buying into the panic that they're selling. I'm not downplaying the virus, not at all, I am saying the media has done their very level best to stir up a .......storm of worries and anxieties and all their yelling at the top of their lungs doesn't help peoples nerves one bit. I was watching a press conference the other day and had to shut it off because the reporters were behaving so badly. I found myself wishing I was there in person and could just walk down the line stuffing something into their mouths and slapping faces. I finally was riled up enough that I shut it off and went out and groomed a couple of horses. Haven't turned the TV on since. It's been much more peaceful.


I think a lot has to do with your living space. People who have a large property will not feel it as much. People living in tiny apartments will be suffering because usually a large part of their life is lived outside, in parks and coffee shops. A lot of people in Europe live in small apartments and a lot of them don’t even have a balcony.

Also, introverts will find this much easier. My husband is actually enjoying the isolation though he is careful to phrase it to include suitable respect for the victims. I don’t mind either way, except that I miss my horse. If I had my horse at home, I wouldn’t mind it at all. 

For extroverts this is torture. Extroverts need and crave other people and are having their mental health seriously impacted. I sympathize with them. I think isolation to an extrovert has the same impact as crowds do to introverts. If the situation was turned around and I was forced to be in a crowd for weeks on end, I’d go crazy in a spectacular manner.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Horsef said:


> For extroverts this is torture. Extroverts need and crave other people and are having their mental health seriously impacted. I sympathize with them. I think isolation to an extrovert has the same impact as crowds do to introverts. If the situation was turned around and I was forced to be in a crowd for weeks on end, I’d go crazy in a spectacular manner.


Once again, I think you've probably nailed it. I HATE crowds with a purple passion. Flatly refuse to deal with big crowds. Since I am not an extrovert and don't crave a lot of contact, I can empathize with those who are having trouble with the separation anxiety but can't really understand it because for me, a great day involves me and a horse or dog or even a chicken. My ideal days have nothing to do with interacting with another human. And because I do have a larger property, there is always work to be done here and a good reason not to leave it until I have to.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

SilverMaple said:


> Our local Walmarts, grocery chains, etc. now will not give you toilet paper or other in-demand items with curbside--- those are 'in store purchases only'. So people have to go IN PERSON to stores, stand in line outside because if you're not there first thing in the morning, you have zero chance of getting any, and then when they miss out, they have to go do it all over again at another store. How is that keeping people home? It's not. And if you have a large family, the little 4-pack of cheap paper the smaller stores can sometimes get won't last you long, so you're still having to look elswhere, or hope you can score a pack every week.
> 
> We've been trying for three weeks to get a pickup time at a Walmart within an hour of us. No luck. They are only filling slots two days out, and new times come available very early in the morning. By the time it goes live and I click on a time, someone else has already claimed it and I'm out of luck. So we're stuck with going in person to the stores.


I haven't used the shop on line then pick up at the store after they do the shopping for you, so can't say anything about that. I'd love to try it but our local Walmarts have the WORST fresh produce I've ever seen, so I don't trust anyone to shop for that stuff but me. I go and look things over pretty carefully (when I've been in a hurry and just grab a bag of onions, I've gotten home and thrown half of them away because they're so nasty and moldy) and have changed my purchase on the fly to shallots & green onions rather than what I can see they have for onions or changed the kind of potatoes because what I want looks terrible. I don't trust a shopper to do that for me. 

The "good news" is, the Wally World we generally shop at is not usually terribly crowded mid-day or early mornings, and they're reserving a shopping time for at risk or elderly people to go shopping. They're deep cleaning the stores over night and when they open back up, they are letting those folks go first. I've yet to see a line outside of one of our Walmarts. 

I have not seen TP back on the shelves at local stores but placed an order for a case of it back in Feb on Amazon. It showed up last week, the day after I went to Sam's and found a large package of Charmin sitting on the shelf. Since I have always bought non-perishables in bulk to cut down on trips to the store, we've been in no danger of running out of TP. I've started putting 2 towels in the kitchen, one for hands and one for dishes, and have a pretty good stock of "barn or dog" towels, that could be cut up and used as reusable TP if push came to shove. I also use baby wipes to give my face a swipe at night before bed, I'm now holding on to those and washing my face with soap and water. There's a lot of things we can do that could substitute for TP if necessary. Another throw back to my kid overseas days when the commissary would occasionally run out of things and we'd have to make do or go out into the local town and buy there. It wasn't awful to go to town, but it was just another thing to put on top of an already busy "to do" list and of course, it was a lot more expensive than shopping on base. 

Because of all the laundry that's now needing done, I'm starting to feel like a public laundromat. Seems like I'm doing 2 or more loads per day for 2 people.


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## Acadianartist

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Once again, I think you've probably nailed it. I HATE crowds with a purple passion. Flatly refuse to deal with big crowds. Since I am not an extrovert and don't crave a lot of contact, I can empathize with those who are having trouble with the separation anxiety but can't really understand it because for me, a great day involves me and a horse or dog or even a chicken. My ideal days have nothing to do with interacting with another human. And because I do have a larger property, there is always work to be done here and a good reason not to leave it until I have to.


Also an introvert, also on a large property (13 acres) with my animals. I would be fine (I work from home a lot anyway, and was about to start a sabbatical so not that much has changed in regard to my work). But I have two teenagers who are supposed to be at school, socializing, taking music lessons and riding lessons, and going to football practice. So somehow I have to keep them busy, make sure they stay on top of their school work, and make them feel like life is as normal as possible under the circumstances. I am teaching them to cook, to clean, and sharing what little academic expertise I have. And I have to do my own work during the day too. It is absolutely mentally exhausting. I know that's a totally selfish thing to say, and I do appreciate my kids being with me. They are both pretty awesome, and I love them dearly. But being a teacher/football coach/mom 24/7 is so draining. This is why I never wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. I just want some time alone. That said, I sympathize with moms of little ones. At least my kids can keep themselves busy for a while on their own. I remember how clingy they were when they were little - that would be overwhelming! 

Otherwise, I wouldn't care if I never saw most people again. I miss my parents a little - we all zoomed each other for Easter. It was fun, but obviously not the same. I think fondly of all the traveling I got to do before this and wonder whether my kids will have the same opportunities. Paris, Brussels, Rome, Milan, Madrid, Amsterdam, NYC, New Orleans... just glad I got to see those places in person. Not that I'll be sad if I never get to travel again - it was never the same again after 9/11 - , but I would have liked for my kids to see the world like I did. My daughter was just starting to get the travel bug and now her trips have been cancelled.


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## Horsef

Acadianartist said:


> I think fondly of all the traveling I got to do before this and wonder whether my kids will have the same opportunities. Paris, Brussels, Rome, Milan, Madrid, Amsterdam, NYC, New Orleans... just glad I got to see those places in person. Not that I'll be sad if I never get to travel again - it was never the same again after 9/11 - , but I would have liked for my kids to see the world like I did. My daughter was just starting to get the travel bug and now her trips have been cancelled.


I am not worried about that - people have short memories.
Give us a vaccine and we'll be back to licking door handles at post offices in no time. 

As a matter of fact, I am watching a bunch of young people share a joint as we speak - my house overlooks a park.
I am not kidding.
Literally slobbering all over a joint and passing it to the next guy as I'm typing this.
So...

I am not sure what the psychology behind this behavior is. We never saw joints out in the open like that in our neighborhood before this started. Now I keep seeing them all the time. Weird.


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## Acadianartist

@Horsef, I think young people see this as an act of rebellion. They're suddenly breaking all the rules. A few of them, I mean, not the majority of course. Because there are less people out and about, they feel they can do anything. It has a post-apocalyptic appeal to them I guess. 

You're right, people have short memories. But just like traveling got more complicated after 9/11, I suspect it will become even more so. I had already cut back my travel for various reasons (mostly, I'm tired of it) but certainly expect that there will be less leisure travel than there used to be. Work travel may get cut back too as economies struggle and employers figure they can save money by doing everything via Skype/Zoom, etc. 

I have to say, I would have enjoyed all those places more without the big crowds, so there's that...


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## Spanish Rider

Just received a message that my son's high school Spanish Language and Lit. teacher has died.


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## Horsef

Spanish Rider said:


> Just received a message that my son's high school Spanish Language and Lit. teacher has died.


I am so sorry for your loss. 
This one as well as how badly Spain has fared in this crisis.
I am hoping you are truly over the worst part of it.


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## Spanish Rider

We are far from over the worst of it, and the government has allowed certain non-essential workers back to work, so now we are expecting the second wave to overlap with the first. Certain hospitals still don't have enough PPE for everyone. Preference is given to front-line hospital staff, but it just isn't safe enough for everyone - more than 20,000 infected hospital workers, and news today of a mountain village doctor who died after working 32 h straight with no PPE and no help.

The government justifies sending people back to work by saying that the daily death rate has dropped 50%. Yes, it has, from 1000 to 500, but that is still 500 deaths per day!!! Does that mean nothing to them?!?!?!

We are all very sad and very frustrated. And, as time goes on we all start to hear about case of people we know.


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## Spanish Rider

This was in the news today: nurses at a rural hospital near me suiting up in plastic compost sacks.


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## Caledonian

Finnish researchers released a model based on someone coughing in a supermarket, it shows how the virus stays in the air for longer than thought.


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## knightrider

> I think a lot has to do with your living space. People who have a large property will not feel it as much. People living in tiny apartments will be suffering because usually a large part of their life is lived outside, in parks and coffee shops. A lot of people in Europe live in small apartments and a lot of them don’t even have a balcony.
> 
> Also, introverts will find this much easier. My husband is actually enjoying the isolation though he is careful to phrase it to include suitable respect for the victims. I don’t mind either way, except that I miss my horse. If I had my horse at home, I wouldn’t mind it at all.
> 
> For extroverts this is torture. Extroverts need and crave other people and are having their mental health seriously impacted. I sympathize with them. I think isolation to an extrovert has the same impact as crowds do to introverts. If the situation was turned around and I was forced to be in a crowd for weeks on end, I’d go crazy in a spectacular manner.


This is me exactly, and sometimes I feel guilty about how easy it is for me. I have lots of work to do on my property, hate shopping so rarely go, have neighbors and friends to ride with and piles of fun trails on which to ride. My daughter is a grand companion (my husband is unwell and he stays in) so I am not lonely at all. 

My heart aches for the folks who are losing loved ones. Yesterday I learned of someone personally who has it. I was wondering when I would finally know someone. She is a nurse in a local nursing home. Her case was mild. Unfortunately, the folks in the nursing home who got it from her do not have mild cases. She wouldn't have known she had it except that the people in the nursing home were all getting sick so they tested the nurses.

This morning I met up with my horsey neighbor whose mom has Alzheimer's in a nursing home. The mom is locked in a 10 by 10 room and her meals are brought to her. She is bewildered and upset and miserable. Her life is pure misery right now. Her family is not allowed to visit her.


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## Acadianartist

Spanish Rider said:


> Just received a message that my son's high school Spanish Language and Lit. teacher has died.


Oh no, I'm so sorry.


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## SilverMaple

As far as the isolation, that isn't hard for me. My husband and I are homebody introverts anyway, so this is pretty easy. We miss going out to eat and seeing our families, but otherwise this is a piece of cake. I despise grocery shopping anyway, and it's even worse now, but we try to go once a week at the most, and get what we need and what my parents need so they don't have to go out. My mom's washing machine died and there's no way to get someone in to repair it right now, so when I drop off their groceries, I pick up their laundry and return it the following week with the next week's groceries. It works pretty well. We meet halfway between their house and ours in the parking lot of a closed store, and keep our distance--- my dad is one who would likely not make it if he caught this virus, so we're staying far apart and I wipe down the bags and baskets when I set them in her vehicle for her as she stands back. I miss hugging her and seeing Dad. I would be crushed if something happens to my dad during this as I haven't seen him since the first of March and don't dare, but at the same time, if I'm carrying the virus and expose him, he'll die. 

A friend of ours has tested positive but is recovering. Another friend has lost her mom--- she was tested but has passed away and they are still waiting for the test results six days later. :-(


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## egrogan

It's funny hearing how much people hate grocery shopping. I look forward to grocery shopping and typically go multiple times a week to buy fresh stuff (not now obviously...). I deeply miss our local bars and restaurants, which were (hopefully, still will be...) the heart of our social lives. I guess maybe that's the difference when you aren't close with your biological family and have no neighbors - you build community in a different way. I'm an introvert by nature, and have worked remotely for a decade, but definitely used to getting my "people fix" over a meal or a drink. 

I've had several friends in various parts of the US test positive for C19 but no one has been hospitalized (*knock on wood*), just miserable recovering at home. Am saddened though that I'm now seeing several people who have died who are friends-of-friends, both locally and more distant. Really tough news.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Spanish Rider said:


> Just received a message that my son's high school Spanish Language and Lit. teacher has died.


I am so very sorry.


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## loosie

I'm so sorry to hear, SpanishRider. Hard to imagine how people feel, living in those most affected societies... And seeing people be sent back to work & such. Must be like a living nightmare.

It has stayed relatively minor here... So far. Still only extremely few deaths reported, given amounts of ppl positive, which is... Interesting. News last night reported that an aged care worker went to work 11 days despite feeling off, before testing positive & now 2 elderly residents have become sick....

I've largely given up trying to follow this thread, it's just so fast moving & lots of 'chatter' between important info. So, I know it's time consuming but can I please request again that people with updated info, current medical stuff, etc please copy it to the other thread??


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## gottatrot

Caledonian said:


> Finnish researchers released a model based on someone coughing in a supermarket, it shows how the virus stays in the air for longer than thought.


Just to point out this is a "rapidly" put together consortium that acknowledges there is not enough data yet to make any recommendations based on their findings. So it would not be a good idea to watch the video and think no one is safe unless wearing N95 masks. The overall message they want to spread is to avoid busy places. That is good.
https://www.aalto.fi/en/news/researchers-modelling-the-spread-of-the-coronavirus-emphasise-the-importance-of-avoiding-busy

Epidemiological studies are necessary to bridge the difference between what is theoretically possible in a model versus what actually happens in the real world. Certain conditions can make droplets stay in the air longer, and certain conditions can also make them drop much faster than usual. A breeze in a store might mean droplets hover for longer, or it might mean cooler and warmer air collide making up and down drafts that cause particles to drop faster. 
https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-019-3707-y


> ...despite the various mechanistic arguments about which organisms can be potentially airborne and therefore aerosol-transmissible, ultimately, the main deciding factor appears to be how many studies using various differing approaches: empirical (clinical, epidemiological), and/or experimental (e.g. using animal models), and/or mechanistic (using airflow tracers and air-sampling) methods, reach the same consensus opinion. Over time, the scientific community will eventually form an impression of the predominant transmission route for that specific agent, even if the conclusion is one of mixed transmission routes, with different routes predominating depending on the specific situations. This is the case for influenza viruses, and is likely the most realistic.


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## Hondo

Two great and informative articles. Clearly suggests there is really no need for a 1 micron or sub micron mask and that a finely woven cotton mask should significantly reduce an acquired viral load or even altogether if a cloud was encountered. I've been seriously wondering about the size of droplets involved and the second article addresses that question in detail.


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## SilverMaple

We're seeing an explosion of cases in midwestern meat-packing plants. As those plants are forced to close, the meat supply will be affected. One plant in SD currently has 300 workers positive and thousands of workers yet to test. Those workers are shoulder-to-shoulder on the production lines and after work, most return home to a multigenerational living situation in one small space. It's a disaster in the making for the health system. That plant has closed indefinitely and produces 7% of the pork products in the country. Another in Columbus Junction, Iowa has closed. Several other states have or will soon be closing plants. As other plants go offline, the meat supply will suffer greatly. If you can, go buy chicken, pork, and beef now while it's available and still affordable. Wipe your packaging down when you purchase, make sure to cook the meat thoroughly, and you should not have to worry even if it came from an affected plant. 

We live in an agricultural area. We have producers forced to kill newly-born piglets because the space and food for those piglets is still being taken up by animals that should have been shipped to slaughter last week and now have nowhere to go. We have farmers going bankrupt feeding thousands of cattle that should have shipped to slaughter two weeks ago. It's a disaster...


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## Acadianartist

SilverMaple said:


> We're seeing an explosion of cases in midwestern meat-packing plants. As those plants are forced to close, the meat supply will be affected. One plant in SD currently has 300 workers positive and thousands of workers yet to test. Those workers are shoulder-to-shoulder on the production lines and after work, most return home to a multigenerational living situation in one small space. It's a disaster in the making for the health system. That plant has closed indefinitely and produces 7% of the pork products in the country. Another in Columbus Junction, Iowa has closed. Several other states have or will soon be closing plants. As other plants go offline, the meat supply will suffer greatly. If you can, go buy chicken, pork, and beef now while it's available and still affordable. Wipe your packaging down when you purchase, make sure to cook the meat thoroughly, and you should not have to worry even if it came from an affected plant.
> 
> We live in an agricultural area. We have producers forced to kill newly-born piglets because the space and food for those piglets is still being taken up by animals that should have been shipped to slaughter last week and now have nowhere to go. We have farmers going bankrupt feeding thousands of cattle that should have shipped to slaughter two weeks ago. It's a disaster...


That sounds awful @SilverMaple! I did hear that hams were impossible to find for Easter. Luckily we had some in the freezer (we buy a whole pig every year from a small-scale local farm). 

Makes me wonder how this is eventually going to affect the equine industry. I know it has nothing to do with meat production, but will a plummeting economy lead to abandoned horses? Will hay and feed be harder to get? I'm thinking this is a good time to be as self-sufficient as possible and buy things from small, local farmers.


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## SilverMaple

I think we will certainly see a glut of horses available or dumped at auction. I'm already seeing a lot more 'horses for sale' posts--- most worded like "he's a spare horse but we can't justify having him anymore" or "i bought her as a project, but she's just been standing in a pen for the past month, so she needs to go" leading me to think a lot of people are already trying to get their numbers down. The saving grace right now is that the grass is coming in, so some horses will still be able to be fed for the summer, but by fall, if things are still shut down/closing again and hay is pricey, there will be a lot of animals out there with nowhere to go.


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## Horsef

Our leaders in Serbia aren’t messing around. Yesterday they arrested a head of a retirement home because the virus has been allowed to spread in the institution which he was managing. 130 people got infected. The guy is looking at 12 years in jail. He was allowing visitors still, he didn’t organize food delivery to rooms but had them all eating in the dining room and, worst of all, he covered up febrile patients. So I guess he deserves everything he gets seeing that they were all issued very specific instructions on how to organize retirement homes. It’s not like he was struggling alone - all retirement homes received instructions, PPE and a dedicated medical team on call. Strangely enough, reporters have been asking about that particular retirement home for about 10 days and have always been placated.

We got ourselves another full lockdown, Friday afternoon to Tuesday morning no one is allowed out at all. It’s our Easter so they had to lock us all in to prevent mass gatherings. 86 hours in total. I am lucky I live in a house with a large yard. 95% of people in my city live in apartments. Also, the priests have been making noises about civil disobedience for Sunday mass, but I think it’s a bluff.


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## Acadianartist

Horsef said:


> Our leaders in Serbia aren’t messing around. Yesterday they arrested a head of a retirement home because the virus has been allowed to spread in the institution which he was managing. 130 people got infected. The guy is looking at 12 years in jail. He was allowing visitors still, he didn’t organize food delivery to rooms but had them all eating in the dining room and, worst of all, he covered up febrile patients. So I guess he deserves everything he gets seeing that they were all issued very specific instructions on how to organize retirement homes. It’s not like he was struggling alone - all retirement homes received instructions, PPE and a dedicated medical team on call. Strangely enough, reporters have been asking about that particular retirement home for about 10 days and have always been placated.
> 
> We got ourselves another full lockdown, Friday afternoon to Tuesday morning no one is allowed out at all. It’s our Easter so they had to lock us all in to prevent mass gatherings. 86 hours in total. I am lucky I live in a house with a large yard. 95% of people in my city live in apartments. Also, the priests have been making noises about civil disobedience for Sunday mass, but I think it’s a bluff.


Sorry to hear you are getting another full lockdown. Good that you have a yard at least! 

Did you hear about the retirement home in Quebec where people started getting sick so the staff stopped showing up and abandoned the elderly to die? Horrific. There was still a skeleton staff on duty, but not enough to look after people so they just died in their beds. 31 altogether. It is a private senior's home and a lot of people are saying there should be no such thing. Of course people are being charged, but it won't bring back those who died feeling abandoned and their families who must feel horrible. 

@*SilverMaple* , yes, that's my feeling too - people won't be selling off tons of horses just yet, but in a few months, all those empty lesson barns will be really feeling it, and many owners who have lost their jobs will have no other choice. I cannot even imagine...


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## SilverMaple

Unfortunately, I think we will also have a lot of horses and other pets whose owners have died, and whose families are unable or unwilling to take them. Think of how many horse and pet owners are older people... An acquaintance lost her grandfather, and he has four horses. She's keeping one, but the others are all up for sale. And the illness really hasn't hit here-- he became infected on a cruise and self-isolated when he got home, but passed away from it a few weeks later. There will be many, many more... :-(


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## Spanish Rider

Personally, I am afraid for the older horses at my barn. Presumido, in my avatar, is 23 and each year has a harder and harder time coming back into work after the summer. He loses muscle mass when he is not worked, which is harder to build as they age. So now, if these older lesson horses and school masters are put out to pasture (pasture that turns to dry lot next month) and not worked from March until… September? October? November?... many will be physically too far gone.

Sad.


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## Acadianartist

I am so thankful that my horses are with me. But you're right, all these horses who are not being worked are going to be on grass soon (many already are of course) and getting fat. Lesson barns may have to thin their herds. No one knows whether there will be a show season...


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## Horsef

The lady who owns the yard I keep my horse at said she only has enough to feed her school horses for two months when this first started 6 weeks ago. We have turnout, but it is nowhere close to be able to support a single horse, never mind seven of them grass-wise.

I really don't know how she will cope. I have been paying more than my usual rate for livery but I can't afford to feed seven additional horses on top of my one.
Especially seeing that her riding school business is unlikely to immediately take off where it left off. Her clients are also loosing out on income and riding lessons are a luxury. I am really scared for those horses. I know and love all of them, even the witchy mare that tried to bite me a few years ago. It's not likely that the owner will be able to sell those horses, except to the abattoir. Heartbreaking - on top of everything else. I am hoping that the owner finds some other solution.


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## SilverMaple

We're seeing more and more pushback to the closure of businesses. A month ago, people were ok with staying home for awhile. Now it seems most would rather open everything back up and take the risk of more deaths rather than see this extend through the summer. I'm torn-- I want our local businesses to survive and people to be able to feed their families, but I also know that once we reopen the library, people will swarm in and we'll have kids there all day every day all summer since they won't be opening the community pool, and I'll end up sick. I've had pneumonia several times; I don't want covid! But I'll either have to go back to work or quit my job as I'm the only full-time employee at the library. My parents are at high risk of death from the coronavirus, too. 

Whether people want to reopen or not is nearly always along party lines, and since we're a very conservative state politically, most people would rather reopen and just deal with the consequences than remain closed another month. People are upset that some businesses are allowed to remain open while theirs are closed, with no end in sight. They're also pushing to reopen schools and daycares for parents who want to go back to work, and not penalizing those who choose to keep their kids home from school. My husband was told to have a plan by May 1 to go back to teaching for a couple of months in case our governor doesn't cancel schools like the surrounding states have.

I'm seeing a lot of yard signs and facebook posts saying things like "God will take care of us; reopen our businesses!" and the like. People also want churches exempt from social distancing guidelines.

It's a mistake, but I think it will happen. We'll reopen before we should and have a lot of deaths that wouldn't need to happen.


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## aubie

An update on a post I made earlier. https://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/hillenbrand-duarte-slowly-recovering-from-covid-19/


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## Acadianartist

We had another day of 0 new cases in my province so I suspect people will start breaking social distancing rules more and more. Our politicians are trying to reinforce the message that if people go back to their normal lives too soon, everything we sacrificed so far will be lost. Not sure how this is going to play out here. I think if people were smart, we could see a re-opening of some businesses within a couple of weeks here, but we'd have to keep our borders closed because neighboring provinces haven't fared so well. About 90% of our cases here are travel-related, so it hasn't run widespread through the community, at least not yet. 

Unfortunately, this crises has made the gap between economic classes even more evident. Some are able to hold onto their jobs and work from home - mostly white-collar workers. Others are forced to go to work in less-than-ideal conditions, but are still not earning enough to actually lift themselves out of the most basic level of subsistence (cleaners and grocery-store clerks) while health professionals earn a good living, but risk their lives daily by going to work. Businesses deemed "luxuries" (including a lot of equine industries and tack stores, but also retail) are taking the biggest hit and they already had a very thin profit margin. This is affecting everyone in vastly different ways from those who have the same buying power as before, and are actually spending a lot less right now so are accumuating wealth, to those who are left with nothing. Government needs to find ways to level the field. They're already subsidizing employee wages for small businesses in Canada at 75% of their salary, but many do not qualify for various reasons. Some remain optimistic that we will come out of this economic turmoil in a year or so, but that largely depends on what happens next and how people behave. An even bigger second wave would be devastating.


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## tinyliny

The decision to do this lockdown and social distancing, kind of forces people to go down a rabbit hole in that once you are committed to it, and you see the benefits it has brought , at a VERY high price economically, you are forced to continue this pathway out of fear of throwing away all you paid for so dearly.


You can't change horses in midstream because it makes all that you lost economically be for nothing. 

However, we have no choice but to start opening up soon. I think it can be done with care, or carelessly.


For example, as much as people miss sporting events, they are a perfect place to pass it on to large numbers of people. Fans are packed in close, are YELLING (expelling a lot of droplets) and overcome with emotion, so they aren't careful anymore. Bad news. They need to play the games for a televised audience, only.


Restaurants can adapt. put clear plastic barriers on smaller tables, and take out half the tables to keep folks at a greater distance. All staff wear masks.


Retail shopping could open with counters at door, limiting the number of persons inside at any one time.


And people need to wear the darn masks! If you are near other people, put on your mask!


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## gottatrot

For my state (oregon) I am wondering if we can open businesses and continue avoiding indoor seating and large groups. One issue I see is that we have over 4 million people and 1,600 or so cases, so less than 0.04%. I don't think we can stay shut down until a vaccine comes, and with so few cases it seems if everyone went back to how things used to be, we would suddenly have a lot of cases. At the rate we are going, our curve would take many months to have a significant portion of the population become immune.

It doesn't seem like there would be a huge change if more businesses opened but followed safety measures. Because right now everyone is still shopping, but it is all restricted to a few stores where everyone piles up. For example, home depot normally has about 30 people inside but currently they are allowing in 100 at a time and people line up outside. To me it seems safer to go back to spreading people out farther apart in the various stores in the community.

It is true that the stimulus seems poorly thought out with couples I know making over $150,000 and stable jobs getting around 3 grand due to having kids. Single people with no kids but out of work getting a couple hundred bucks.

Most nurses fairly well off are still getting money. Not turning down a check but as someone said the stimulus is making some better off than usual with less opportunity to spend.


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## tinyliny

There are sponteneaous groups forming for people who don't NEED their stimulus check to pledge to donate all or part to help out others. It is my intention to do so, too, (if I every get my check). We can manage without it, but some are a week away from being kicked out of their homes. There's a world of difference between our needs.


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## Hondo

I'm not figuring on getting a check. Maybe I should find out.


There is a little video I watched that really irked me. "Wearing gloves may not be as safe as you think". How do they know what I think about wearing gloves. How do they know it will make me less careful and more likely to catch the virus. Yes, they should explain how and why to use them, but just because the virus can't penetrate the skin on the hand doesn't mean there is no reason to wear them.


Case in point. I just started wearing them to the stores. Too much water and soap too often and my fingers split at the nails. Painful plus I'll bet the viruses could have fun in one of those splits.


I have a little perfume sized spray bottle for my shirt pocket. Before I get back in the truck I spray my hands down with a bleach solution. Do that at each and every stop.


Posts on a forum I can easily ignore but when it's presented in the news as official advice, well it irks me. End rant.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

That irked me too Hondo. I know most people don't take them off properly, but even so, wear them, take them off, dispose of them properly and then sanitize or wash your hands. It's what healthcare workers who are taught how to remove them do. Washing out hands so much has really made mine dry. I tend to run dry anyhow but now! And my husband's hands get so dry he sloughs the skin if he's not constantly moisturizing. So wearing gloves to each store helps cut the number of times we have to sanitize in one trip. It's not a lot but it sure does help.


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## Hondo

When I received training many years ago on removing contaminated gloves the instructor said he definitely did not recommend it but demonstrated how to safely reapply a contaminated glove during an emergency.


I use the heavy duty mechanics gloves and do not throw them away. I don't throw my hands away after washing so I also just wash my hands with the gloves on, dry hands as usual, then remove.


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## Spanish Rider

About the "pushback" in some areas against the quarantine:

IMHO, only the areas that have quarantined early enough to avoid the spread of the virus are pushing back. That privilege has been afforded to them by the experience of other hotspots like New York, Spain and Italy, where we are all scared to go back to work, school, etc. Heck, I'm even too scared to go to the supermarket! (haven't been in 5 weeks)

At the same time, in the hotspots of NYC, Spain and Italy, it is exactly the fear that we have and our changes in behaviour that have brought the numbers down and slowed the spread. Here, EVERYONE wears masks and gloves, and there are still new cases every day, even with everything closed and everyone off the streets. So, my fear is that people living in areas that have not seen large infection/death rates will not take distancing and barrier measures seriously. Coupled with the current generalized politics/media fiasco generating doubt and uncertainty, numbers could go up quite fast in areas that had not been hit before.


A Spanish university study published this week has estimated that 62.3% of infections and death in Spain could have been avoided by starting the quarantine one week earlier.
http://documentos.fedea.net/pubs/dt/2020/dt2020-03.pdf


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## BzooZu

Spanish Rider said:


> About the "pushback" in some areas against the quarantine:
> 
> IMHO, only the areas that have quarantined early enough to avoid the spread of the virus are pushing back. That privilege has been afforded to them by the experience of other hotspots like New York, Spain and Italy, where we are all scared to go back to work, school, etc. Heck, I'm even too scared to go to the supermarket! (haven't been in 5 weeks)
> 
> At the same time, in the hotspots of NYC, Spain and Italy, it is exactly the fear that we have and our changes in behaviour that have brought the numbers down and slowed the spread. Here, EVERYONE wears masks and gloves, and there are still new cases every day, even with everything closed and everyone off the streets. So, my fear is that people living in areas that have not seen large infection/death rates will not take distancing and barrier measures seriously. Coupled with the current generalized politics/media fiasco generating doubt and uncertainty, numbers could go up quite fast in areas that had not been hit before.



This is starting to happen here actually. We have closed schools about 5 weeks ago and non-essential shops about 4 weeks ago. At that time we had 2 positive COVID-19 cases. And it helped a lot. As of today we have 977 positively tested people, 8 deaths and 167 recovered. Its NOTHING compared to other countries. But it also means that we are just at the beginning - the peak is predicted sometime in summer. And the people are going crazy. Yes, most of us are responsible as much as possible but as our politicians keep arguing more and more (not enough testing, not enough money, not enough personel, not enough...) the people are slowly losing patience.

A really good example of this are my parents. Mom is working from home, dad goes to his workplace everyday. Both of them watch the news in the evening and always end up complaing about how not enough testing is happening about how some people are irresponsible, about the nursing homes (our last few cases were from one sadly) not taking good enough care about their clients. AND THEN during the weekend they go out hiking - and everyone is out hiking now. People moved from shopping centres to popular hiking trails and anywhere you move outside there are people who think they cant catch coronavirus if they are out in the open. And then my mom wonders why her cough and throatache returns the next day (this has been now repeated 3 weekends in a row). Its maddening and terrifying. Its going to get worse...


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## Acadianartist

@gottatrot, wait what? 100 people at Home Depot? Just how big are your Home Depots? 

I went out for the second time since things began to shut down a month ago. Stocked up on horse feed first - that required me telling an employee outside what I wanted, him letting me in (only one person gets to go into the store at any given time). I was only allowed to go directly to the cash, tell them what I want through plexiglass, have him clean, then hand me the debit machine, then go to my car, waiting for someone else to load my order into the back. Then I went to the liquor store. My first time in a month. I had to wait outside on a line painted on the sidewalk. There were only a couple of other people, but they stood behind the lines 6 feet away from each other. An employee outside the liquor store asked me more questions than a custom officer about where I had been, whom I had been in contact with, and possible symptoms. When he was satisfied, and once a person walked out, he let me in. Only about 3 other people were in the store with me. An employee asked if I needed help, then proceeded to walk away, and stand about 20 feet away while naming the options in front of me. Next, I picked up a gullet from a tack store. It is actually closed, but I messaged in my request for this item, so the owner ordered it for me, I paid by etransfer, and she put it out on a table with my name on it on the front porch of the store. I waved to her through the window (I'm a pretty regular customer, obviously). Finally, I stopped to buy yoga mats and a couple of other items at a hardware store. A guy stood out front with the kind of roller tape and posts you see at airports. He let me in, I walked through the front door where a big sign said STOP and a very nice lady stood behind a table explaining the rules. Everyone must be 6 feet apart. Only one person per household can be shopping. Maybe there were 15 people in the entire store, and we very carefully avoided each other. Awkwardly so, but you do what you have to do. 

Today, we had 0 new cases again. We are definitely flattening the curve. It can be done, but yeah, it sure helps when you live in a province that is largely rural and has a sparse population. Though I do wonder what will happen if we do eventually get exposed since it's unlikely we have much immunity.

We never did get hit hard here. Not sure why most people are being so careful, but they are. There are exceptions, of course, but overall, it seems like the measures have been quite successful. We have only had a little over a hundred cases in our province, and no deaths. So why are people willing to respect quarantines here?


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## Hondo

Acadianartist said:


> Today, we had 0 new cases again.



Thing is, with the lack of testing that can only be 0 'reported and tested' cases. No one can know how many untested and unreported cases are running around out there.


But even so, if reported cases are down, that's a good thing.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Acadianartist said:


> @gottatrot, wait what? 100 people at Home Depot? Just how big are your Home Depots?
> 
> Today, we had 0 new cases again. We are definitely flattening the curve. It can be done, but yeah, it sure helps when you live in a province that is largely rural and has a sparse population. Though I do wonder what will happen if we do eventually get exposed since it's unlikely we have much immunity.
> 
> We never did get hit hard here. ...................... We have only had a little over a hundred cases in our province, and no deaths. So why are people willing to respect quarantines here?


Here in OK we have roughly 4 million people in the state. In Payne County (my county) we have roughly 82,000 people and 697 square miles and population density of about 119/mile. Approximately 65,000 of the 82,000 live in Stillwater (the largest town and county seat), it has a poplulation density of 1627/mile and land mass of 28 square miles. The population numbers go up and down depending on whether college is in session (it is not) and the kids are here and/or if it's a home game weekend. Right now we're pretty much a ghost town, they sent the kids home for Spring Break and didn't let them come back. Any who stayed in town, and lived on campus, were sent home by April 5. There'll be no summer session. Regular schools K-12, followed the same thing, no school after break and no summer session. At this point we don't know whether they'll come back in the fall. 

Even though we've been way down on residents since Covid became a thing, I've watched it climb from single digit cases to 34 confirmed cases, in Payne County. In the state, we've been pretty consistent with our gains of roughly 150 cases/day and so far, it hasn't started to taper off. Our death rate is still climbing but not as fast as other places. Our expected "surge date" is still 6 days away, so April 23rd. People here in Payne County are taking things pretty seriously and that's probably why our daily gain is still pretty low. People in the cities and towns are chafing to get loose but out here in the country where I am not much has changed in our day to day lives. I'm sure that helps with my willingness to comply with the mandates. Though.....I'm telling you, the person who decided liquor stores were essential, but not beauty parlors and nail salons, was a bald, alcoholic male. Had to be. 

@Acadian Artist - 100 in a Home Depot or Lowe's is NOTHING. You walk in and wonder what's wrong. We call them the Big Box Stores for a reason. Their trade is based on volume and generality.


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## Acadianartist

Hondo said:


> Thing is, with the lack of testing that can only be 0 'reported and tested' cases. No one can know how many untested and unreported cases are running around out there.
> 
> 
> But even so, if reported cases are down, that's a good thing.


Agreed, though testing has ramped up considerably here too. But even with thousands of tests, we are still getting many days without any new cases. It would be nice to know whether some of us have immunity (I'm assuming that's why people are asking to be tested), but if people were getting sick with Covid-19, there would be an increase in the number of people hospitalized. We may be faring well at this pandemic, but New Brunswick's health overall is terrible, like many other rural provinces/states. Obesity, smoking, drinking, an aging population, all the comorbidities are here. So while there may be some asymptomatic people that haven't been tested, since only 12 people have been hospitalized (and have since been released), it tells me Covid-19 is not rampant here. Total number of confirmed positive cases is 117. Total number of negative tests is 8 338 (our total population is 776K). Not sure why, but we never had high numbers, and now the curve is definitely pretty flat. They are not talking about re-opening things on a large scale, but a little at a time.


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## Acadianartist

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Though.....I'm telling you, the person who decided liquor stores were essential, but not beauty parlors and nail salons, was a bald, alcoholic male. Had to be.


Hahaha... no kidding. You think that's bad, our cannabis stores were also deemed essential. I guess they figure people with addictions will lose their minds if they suddenly have to go cold turkey. I should say that having access to beer and wine in grocery stores is a very recent thing here, and the selection is very limited. So our liquor stores are also beer and wine stores, and until about 5 years ago, they were the only place to buy booze of any kind. A lot of people still make their weekly trip to the liquor store. I wanted some craft beer after drinking nothing but Bud for a month, and you can't get that at the grocery store. But cannabis? Whatever, not judging. 

Of course Florida thought wrestling was an essential service... https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...a-tv-shows-ron-desantis-wrestling-coronavirus


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## ApuetsoT

Acadianartist said:


> Hahaha... no kidding. You think that's bad, our cannabis stores were also deemed essential. I guess they figure people with addictions will lose their minds if they suddenly have to go cold turkey. I should say that having access to beer and wine in grocery stores is a very recent thing here, and the selection is very limited. So our liquor stores are also beer and wine stores, and until about 5 years ago, they were the only place to buy booze of any kind. A lot of people still make their weekly trip to the liquor store. I wanted some craft beer after drinking nothing but Bud for a month, and you can't get that at the grocery store. But cannabis? Whatever, not judging.
> 
> Of course Florida thought wrestling was an essential service... https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...a-tv-shows-ron-desantis-wrestling-coronavirus


Someone who is an alcoholic can't stop cold turkey. For those with a severe dependency, stopping suddenly can literally kill them. Shutting down liquor stores would lead to a second public health crisis.


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## Hondo

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> was a bald, alcoholic male. Had to be.



I don't understand this.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Acadianartist said:


> Hahaha... no kidding. You think that's bad, our cannabis stores were also deemed essential. I guess they figure people with addictions will lose their minds if they suddenly have to go cold turkey. I should say that having access to beer and wine in grocery stores is a very recent thing here, and the selection is very limited. So our liquor stores are also beer and wine stores, and until about 5 years ago, they were the only place to buy booze of any kind. A lot of people still make their weekly trip to the liquor store. I wanted some craft beer after drinking nothing but Bud for a month, and you can't get that at the grocery store. But cannabis? Whatever, not judging.
> 
> Of course Florida thought wrestling was an essential service... https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...a-tv-shows-ron-desantis-wrestling-coronavirus


They did that with our cannabis stores too. I don't drink so don't care about liquor stores. We also have just in the last year allowed Beer and Wine in our groceries, you could get 3.2 Beer there but not on Sundays.....LOL! Gotta love them Blue Laws, make no sense whatsoever. Our liquor stores were not allowed to sell mixers or tools (corkscrews etc), so you could buy a bottle of wine but had to go to Walmart for the corkscrew or mixers to put with that Jack Daniels you just bought. Moonshine was still the real deal, not watered down stuff in the liquor stores. Oh, and it's still pretty recent that most counties now allow liquor by the drink. When I was growing up, you went to a private club, handed the bartender your bottle and they'd serve the shots out of that and sell you the mixer and mix the drink for you. What really happened was, you'd drink your half pint of liquor up and then they'd pour a couple of shots of whatever house brand they had and your bottle never ran dry. It was amazing how long some folks drank on a 1/2 pint of hard stuff!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Hondo said:


> I don't understand this.


If you could see some of my friend's hair or my nails, you'd get it.


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## Acadianartist

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> They did that with our cannabis stores too. I don't drink so don't care about liquor stores. We also have just in the last year allowed Beer and Wine in our groceries, you could get 3.2 Beer there but not on Sundays.....LOL! Gotta love them Blue Laws, make no sense whatsoever. Our liquor stores were not allowed to sell mixers or tools (corkscrews etc), so you could buy a bottle of wine but had to go to Walmart for the corkscrew or mixers to put with that Jack Daniels you just bought. Moonshine was still the real deal, not watered down stuff in the liquor stores. Oh, and it's still pretty recent that most counties now allow liquor by the drink. When I was growing up, you went to a private club, handed the bartender your bottle and they'd serve the shots out of that and sell you the mixer and mix the drink for you. What really happened was, you'd drink your half pint of liquor up and then they'd pour a couple of shots of whatever house brand they had and your bottle never ran dry. It was amazing how long some folks drank on a 1/2 pint of hard stuff!


Hilarious. When I was in Louisiana many years ago, I was introduced to a drive-through bar. You could literally drive up to a window, order drinks for everyone in the car, and drive away. Even the driver! I actually asked if they could leave the cap on my bottle so I could just drink it later and they said "Sorry ma'am, we have to open it." :confused_color: I could not wrap my head around that. Then my friend who lived there explained that each county has its own rules about open booze in the car so if you cross county lines, you have be careful. Some of them were complicated and excluded Sundays. So much confusion... 

@*ApuetsoT* I know, I'm not at all suggesting they should have closed them. It's just odd what is considered essential in different cultures.


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## egrogan

Well Louisiana's drive through daiquri shops are a specialty of the state :rofl: When I lived there, they had to keep the tip of the straw covered with paper when they gave you the drink- somehow _that _meant it was "closed." Texans can correct me, but I believe there is something similar in that state. Other than those places, I've never been anywhere else that does the same! Thanks for a fun memory.

PS- I've never had my nails done or my hair dyed, but I am grateful that the places where I buy craft beer have mostly remained open throughout this and wouldn't trade that for all the salons in the country :wink:


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## Hondo

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> If you could see some of my friend's hair or my nails, you'd get it.



Now I'm really confused.


Switcherroo.........


Raised in a dry county adjacent to OK. Oh yeah, I brought my bottle to those bottle clubs also. I was told my county went wet and now my 1000 pop hometown has full bars right on main street. Hard to believe.


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## gottatrot

ApuetsoT said:


> Someone who is an alcoholic can't stop cold turkey. For those with a severe dependency, stopping suddenly can literally kill them. Shutting down liquor stores would lead to a second public health crisis.


Yes, at first glance it seems strange to leave liquor stores open but if hospitals are at capacity the last thing you want is a lot of people detoxing. Often they end up in ICU, sometimes on ventilators. Other drugs make you feel like you are dying if you go through withdrawals, but alcohol is the one that is truly dangerous. It can cause seizures, aspiration. Quite a few people end up in restraints.

About the gloves, I understand it seems demeaning to tell people they don't keep you safer. I am guessing this is a response to all the photos online of people rubbing their faces with their gloves. It makes sense people want to protect their skin. Thick gloves are more difficult to get hand sanitizer distributed on all areas than hands. Nitrile hospital gloves that fit well are much better.

I think seeing people in the store with their brown stained gloves that look like they were used to clean the toilet or a cat box at home is a good visual reminder. That is how dirty the hands are that usually touch all the fruit before you do, but the gloves make it more obvious.


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## Hondo

As usual, I'm in a corner by myself. Because of my skin problem, I've been wearing nitrile mechanics gloves long before Covid-19. I wear them under my leather gloves in the winter. I use them for washing dishes. I use them specifically for avoiding washing my hands or getting them wet. And the moisturizers stay on my hands longer.


So to me, it just seemed a no-brainer to wear the gloves to the store. Before I get into the truck, I spray them all over liberally with the recommended bleach dilution. Then I get in the truck and pull the off. Clean hands. Clean steering wheel.


Sure, there could well be viruses on the fruit although as always, I try to reach for the fruit that fewer can easily reach.


And I started wearing a cotton mask. Gets the big stuff but perhaps not the small stuff. This plus minimum 6 feet.


I don't disinfect all the packages when I get home. But I do use gloves to put them away.


My objective is not to avoid even one virus but rather to reduce the load so hopefully my immune system can handle.


The statistics say, right or wrong, that my age group has a 1 in 10 death rate. Don't like those odds.


Interesting about the alcoholics. I didn't have a clue. I've heard about the DT's and stuff all my life but had no idea quitting could kill.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Hondo said:


> As usual, I'm in a corner by myself. Because of my skin problem, I've been wearing nitrile mechanics gloves long before Covid-19. I wear them under my leather gloves in the winter. I use them for washing dishes. I use them specifically for avoiding washing my hands or getting them wet. And the moisturizers stay on my hands longer.
> 
> 
> So to me, it just seemed a no-brainer to wear the gloves to the store. Before I get into the truck, I spray them all over liberally with the recommended bleach dilution. Then I get in the truck and pull the off. Clean hands. Clean steering wheel.
> 
> 
> Sure, there could well be viruses on the fruit although as always, I try to reach for the fruit that fewer can easily reach.
> 
> 
> And I started wearing a cotton mask. Gets the big stuff but perhaps not the small stuff. This plus minimum 6 feet.
> 
> 
> I don't disinfect all the packages when I get home. But I do use gloves to put them away.
> 
> 
> My objective is not to avoid even one virus but rather to reduce the load so hopefully my immune system can handle.
> 
> 
> The statistics say, right or wrong, that my age group has a 1 in 10 death rate. Don't like those odds.
> 
> 
> Interesting about the alcoholics. I didn't have a clue. I've heard about the DT's and stuff all my life but had no idea quitting could kill.


I've had lots of friends and family die from alcoholism. My brother is an alcoholic. 
Anything you want to know ask me, I probably know the answer.

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## Acadianartist

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> I've had lots of friends and family die from alcoholism. My brother is an alcoholic.
> Anything you want to know ask me, I probably know the answer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


Sorry to hear this. I know many make jokes about drinking, but it is no laughing matter when it becomes an illness that gets out of control.


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## Horsef

It appears that we will start lifting the isolation from Tuesday here in Serbia. The authorities seem to be happy with the way we are progressing. They are doing contact tracing, finding a lot of asymptomatic people and our respirator numbers are very stable despite rising number of positive patients. 

This is what it looks like (purple - number of tested, orange - positive, blue - number on respirators)


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## Horsef

From Tuesday we are opening all construction, indoor and outdoor and small shops. We are also reducing the duration of the afternoon and overnight lockdown by an hour.

A week later they will open hairdressers and gyms.

A week after that shopping centers, spas, hotels and public transportation between cities.

I guess they are happy with the numbers. Or we are running out of money. 
They did emphasize that if there is any indication that it’s picking up, they will shut it down again very fast.

In the meantime, our big 86 hour lockdown is in full swing and only ends Tuesday morning.


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## Horsef

Serbia still: I forgot, they will also allow people over 65 which have been on full lockdown for over a month to take walks in the afternoon, when everyone else is on lockdown. They will also allow all children and adults with developmental delays to go out at any time, regardless of our daily and weekend lockdown.


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## Acadianartist

Only one new case here today. Total of 5 cases in the last 7 days. So they opened up ATV trails which may not have been the smartest thing to do. It's a lovely, sunny weekend here, and many photos are circulating of people in large groups milling around and drinking on the trails. All this while parks remain closed to hikers and people are not allowed to go to their summer cottages. I expect there will be some anger form this decision. 

But otherwise, I do think we'll see a return to normal in the next couple of weeks. My daughter's riding coach is coming to our property tomorrow to give her a lesson. She still can't give lessons at her barn, but she can come here, enter the riding ring from the outside gate, stand in the middle and coach without ever coming near anyone or entering the barn. We're so crazy excited about this. 

Meanwhile, my neighbors had 7 cars at their house today. They appear to be doing major house renovations (they just bought the place about two months ago and had a baby recently). No social distancing going on - large groups of people socializing in the yard, drinking, having a BBQ, and working on the house together. Whatever - I'm not sticking my nose in it. I think most of them are family or close friends. At this point, it's unlikely we have much community transmission but it just doesn't look good.


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## Spanish Rider

Week 6. We're still locked down, although construction workers are bacck to work and I see a couple of builders working on the house across the street.

I have been trying to call the hospital to get an appointment with my son's nephrologist in order to get his CT scan scheduled, but lines are busy. We need that diagnosis.


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## SilverMaple

Cases are still climbing, our state isn't expected to peak for another 2-4 weeks and we had 500 new cases yesterday alone, but we're being told we'll start opening up May 1 regardless. So, hold onto your hats. It's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.


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## Horsef

We are currently experiencing a shortage of spring flowers here in Serbia .

Things like geraniums and similar potted plants are all sold out. I guess people are sitting at home and decided to make their balconies and windowsill pretty.

I suppose that means we are doing really well.

Farmers markets and all small shops will start working tomorrow. For people in US and Canada, these markets and shops are all over the place in Europe, they aren’t an exception. If anything, more people shop in farmers markets and neighborhood shops than in shopping centers - at least here. They’ve also opened driving schools, all construction (that wasn’t closed, they are just encouraging them to get back to 100%), tailors, bike shops, car sales...

We are getting whiplash here. This was incredibly fast. Most people are against lifting the measures so quickly and abruptly. We didn’t even have that “many” deaths, 125, but people are scared.

China is all out - we just got two new labs built, outfitted and staffed by the Chinese. It took them two weeks and it will double our testing capacity.


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## aubie

Looks like it is pretty much over here in Georgia on Friday. A whole list of things to open up including hair cuts.


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## aubie

Just read restaurants and everything next Monday.


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## aubie

Oh I forgot to mention an important pesky detail. Cases are still climbing.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Thanks. Over the years we've (the family) have tried every conventional and non-conventional intervention imaginable.
Opioid crisis? How about a tobacco and alcohol crisis? Check the statistics. 
Things are ok if it's legal. It's suicide, just slower than a bullet or a noose.
Brother is at less than zero...wife left this time permanently, can't walk, laundry list of health problems, bankruptcy is imminent.
That's why I say Covid-19 is horrific...but one has to consider ALL causes of illness and death to conclude how bad it really is.


Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## aubie

Meanwhile- https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/ne...-to-beer-industry/ar-BB12Yc7e?ocid=spartanntp


----------



## RegalCharm

JEFFERSON COUNTY, Ohio — There has been a lot of talk about antibody tests recently -- and what exactly those tests could do when it comes to re-opening the country.

Dr. Kenneth Woods, an infectious disease physician from Trinity Health System, says there are limitations.

"So, antibody is an agent that the body creates to help fight infection,” he said. “So, as it is created in the body with exposure to things like viral infections, it’s what the body uses to get rid of and fight that infection.”
He says on average, people aren't building antibodies to the coronavirus until 5- to-7 days after exposure.

According to Woods, the antibody tests have a lot of limitations -- another being that if you test a patient that has the coronavirus before their body builds the antibodies, then the test will be negative.

The strain of the coronavirus is also a factor.
"There are several other coronaviruses, in particular four that we saw prior to this outbreak, but the prior ones will leave us with antibodies that are detectable and cannot be distinguished between the new Novel 19 strain vs. an older coronavirus strain. It only detects if a person has exposure to a coronavirus," Woods said.

But one test that can detect the strain is the nasal swab.
"The nasal pharyngeal swab, the swab that goes into the nose and detects viral RNA, that's our PCR test that can distinguish this virus from all of the other viruses that we have historically known," Woods said.

But when it comes to antibody tests, Wood says it won’t help dramatically with re-opening the country.
But rather, he said the test could be helpful in the future, when more is known about the Novel coronavirus.

"Everybody is looking for a test to say if they are exposed, they are going to get the disease. That doesn't exist, or if they have the disease and they are asymptomatic or silent carrier. We don't have a test that can really distinguish that," Woods said.

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure or treatment."
Prevention against COVID-19 in our everyday lives is doing things like social distancing and regularly washing our hands.

https://wtov9.com/news/local/local-infectious-disease-physician-says-antibody-tests-have-limitations


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## tinyliny

@RegalCharm Still, . . . one could do tests on persons who think they have had and survived Covid19. If the antibody test indicate some kind of corona virus, can the tester just add a second test, that nasal swab one, to see if the person has remnants of the novel corona virus? The person then waits 5 days and tests again. If negative, they can fairly certainly assume they had covid, survived and are likely at least somewhat immune.


----------



## RegalCharm

And a new study from China, is saying the covid-19 has mutated into at least 30 new strains. Of which 19 are new 

"The study, which was carried out by professor Li Lanjuan and colleagues from Zhejiang University in Hangzhou, China, was published in a non-peer reviewed paper released on Sunday."

More than 30 different mutations of the virus were detected, of which 19 were previously undiscovered.

https://www.foxnews.com/science/coronavirus-mutated-at-least-30-different-strains-study-finds


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## tinyliny

ANY thing coming from FOX news needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Remember, the Covid19 is so named because of the year, not any counting of virus types.


That is why this idea that we can have a vaccine in a year to 18 months is very, very, perhaps naively so, optimistic.


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## aubie

They got that idea from Rush. He said it was common and this is the 19th one. No the 19 is from 2019 when it started.

I'm so tired of the stupidity. And this being as bad and lasting as long as it has because of it. We are going to reopen here with cases not slowing down. I'm tired of hearing people are tired of staying at home. Lowes being packed. Very little in there is essential. Maybe if your sink is spewing you need a new faucet or something. But that idiot on the news from Michigan sawing he couldn't get his fertilizer for his lawn. I did shipped right to me. If you are worried let it sit for a few days. It's grass, it's not essential.


----------



## SilverMaple

Agreed. The level of stupidity of some people is appalling. It's so frustrating.


----------



## Acadianartist

I have to say I'm a little baffled by how well it's going in my province. 

We have not had any cases for six days now. Total infected: 118. Total negative tests: 11, 540 out of a population of roughly 777, 000. Most are now recovered and something like 6 were hospitalized, one in ICU. No deaths so far. Why? 

I first thought people in my province (New Brunswick) were just doing a good job of staying apart, but watching the live press conference today on the Book of Faces where people could post comments makes me think there is no way people are smarter or better behaved here than anywhere else (seriously, the comments...). I mean sure, we have a small population and are largely rural, but so is Nova Scotia and they are not doing nearly as well. My kids tell me their friends are hanging out and posting selfies of themselves with groups of friends. My neighbors continue to socialize extensively. I went out to drop my car off at the garage for servicing and to get my summer tires put on (by law, I have to remove my winter tires by the end of April). I left it in the yard after hours and left my keys in the key drop. I have arranged for no-contact pick up when it's done. There were lots of cars out on the road - where is everyone going?

Naturally, the government is announcing that they will begin allowing some businesses to re-open if they can demonstrate that they are following social distancing rules. So nothing that involves close contact will open just yet. Schools, colleges and universities will remain closed.

Hubby thinks we are going to get hit hard. I just don't understand why we haven't been hit yet if people are just out there milling around, socializing. It would be great if things could go back to normal, but I fear we've largely been spared by some fluke, and that we will be even less prepared when it does hit. Or not??? Still so much we don't understand.


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## tinyliny

the 2 to 3 week delay of development of cases causes a great deal of difficulty in making a direct association between social distancing policies (or lack thereof), and the resultant case load.


These journals, and comments from us all, will one day provide an interesting ground level reporting of an imporatant era in history. This will be huge in history books to come


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## Horsef

@Acadianartist I am very confused as well. This virus is obviously very contagious. Just look at Italy and Spain. Serbians are very similar in behavior to Italians and Spaniards - cramped cities, lots of coffee shops, lots of kissing, lots of socializing, lots of multi-generation households. We had 300.000 come from the affected areas, which very much includes Italy, six weeks ago. And yet we “only” have 7.000 positive patients, 130 deaths. Despite our numbers growing, the number of people on respirators is dropping. It isn’t a case of no testing, our guys are testing extensively. We are getting something like 10% positive of the number of tested. I would think that the tests are wrong if it wasn’t for that dropping number of people on respirators. Very confusing. I guess researchers are trying to hit a moving target, with virus mutating and populations changing their behavior.


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## Acadianartist

tinyliny said:


> the 2 to 3 week delay of development of cases causes a great deal of difficulty in making a direct association between social distancing policies (or lack thereof), and the resultant case load.


Indeed. This weekend should be revealing since it is two weeks after Easter. I feel like people are getting more lax in my area due to the low number of cases. We'll see if they start going up again in the next few days. We may be experiencing a false sense of security at the moment.


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## ClearDonkey

-sigh- 

Last week in Lansing, MI (the capitol, where I am living), thousands of people held a protest. These people were supposed to remain in their cars, but one by one, they trickled onto the capitol building's lawn and paraded the streets of Lansing. Some were carrying signs, some were fully outfitted with assault rifles and ammunition, and some were just there to be there. While they were 'exercising their rights', many people living in Lansing were afraid in their homes, listening to the orchestra of car horns and screaming.

I am so embarrassed for all of those people.

Now, there are more emerging cases of the virus in counties that previously had very few cases. Gee, I wonder if collecting in Lansing to protest helped with that? Our Governor was going to slowly start opening up the state this week. I didn't listen to her most recent talk, but I would be willing to bet that all of these selfish people are going to slowdown our state re-opening even further.

If that happens, I just want to know why they couldn't wait two weeks more and continue abiding by the rules set in place so hopefully things would start improving.
:shrug:


In other news, the "rescue" that I got one of my horses from has been posting on her personal page often about the virus. A few months ago now she shared a picture of Minnie and I on her personal and rescue page, without my permission, taken from my personal page. I didn't like this, but it didn't hurt anything, and at the very least showed I know my stuff. Well the combination of having a picture of me on her page and discriminatory posts about the virus, I officially told her to take down any pictures including me. I haven't read her response, and I'm not going to. I don't want to be affiliated with her in any way, especially if I want to ever start training horses ago. I support all fellow humans, not all fellow humans minus "the Chinese virus ones".
:shrug:


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## Acadianartist

Another weird phenomenon I am seeing is all the kids who are supposed to be home-schooled are out working in fast-food (take-out only, but still) and grocery stores! I don't understand... when are they supposed to work on their school stuff? My kids' teachers are having daily Teams meetings and sending regular assignments. I'm also working on what I can with them while trying to do my own job as well. It seems people are treating this either as a big vacation or an opportunity for their teenagers to earn some pocket money. Which would be fine, except they're exposing them to the virus and teaching them that school work is not as important as getting a minimum-wage job in a grocery store. 

My kids will be staying home for some time still.


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## carshon

Here in my rural county cases are slowly increasing. We are at 30 cases now and 3 deaths - and we are seeing and hearing a lot more grumbling about staying at home. More traffic, more people out - and it is scary. My son is one that is young and feels invincible and says he doesn't "care" if he gets it. The thing is I care if he gets it. His social life is suffering and that is all he can think about now. Meanwhile our state (IL) continues to see 1000 new cases per day - yes, most of these are Chicago and the suburbs but we know from when the virus first made appearances here that Chicagoans are not staying in Chicago.

A former co-worker posts daily on the book of faces about how her son is failing at the home schooling. He is a Sophomore in HS (16yrs old) and has convinced his parents that he did not understand the homework assignments for a few of his classes and could not get a hold of his teachers. Now he is failing quite a few classes and his ability to play sports this fall is in jeopardy. The mother is calling teachers out by name in her posts and blaming them for her sons failing. I get it, home schooling is hard and making time to make sure your kids are staying caught up is also hard. BUT even while my kids were in school our school made it easy to check on their progress and see whether their assignments were and how their grades were. I feel like I may be one of a very few parents who stayed on top of that. All the while working a full time job and traveling at least one week out of every six. 

So many of the posts I see now just make me sad


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## boots

@Acadianartist - I can't speak to the circumstances of the teens in your area, but locally, some have picked up work that offers "no contact" in order to help the family survive. Pizza delivery, tearing out or building fence on ranches, painting, are some that come to mind. 

If a family's finances were marginal when the parents were working... Things may be dire now.

I grieve for the ill, those we've lost, and those who are suffering financially.


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## tinyliny

This will be our reality for at least a year. It's a mistake to think of this as some kind of short term thing that will go away once we 'reopen' the economy. 

I still read a paper newspaper and an article published by an economist was saying that the economic recovery will likely be "W" shaped. Meaning, there will be some good news over the summer, but by the Fall, when cases of Covid will likely resurge, many more businesses will fail, completely. most likely those that suffered severly during the first surge. This will cause an even deeper economic drop.


I don't see ANY good news about this in the papers. No bright stars. Well, I take that back. Research is beginning to provide some more effective treatment methods for those afflicted. If they can get some really good breakthroughs, this could be a significant game changers, as a real vaccine is a long way off.


There was an article about how blood clotting is seen in about 30 to 40% of the autopsies done on covid dead. This virus does something to the blood clotting system. That may explain why people come into the ER with extraordinarily low blood oxygen levels, and yet are not panting.


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## Horsef

tinyliny said:


> There was an article about how blood clotting is seen in about 30 to 40% of the autopsies done on covid dead. This virus does something to the blood clotting system. That may explain why people come into the ER with extraordinarily low blood oxygen levels, and yet are not panting.


A while ago I wrote about one of our main cardio hospitals which kept getting asymptomatic patients and a lot of medical staff got infected. Well, that now makes sense - a stroke or a heart attack may be a symptom in itself.


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

ClearDonkey said:


> -sigh-
> 
> 
> 
> Last week in Lansing, MI (the capitol, where I am living), thousands of people held a protest. These people were supposed to remain in their cars, but one by one, they trickled onto the capitol building's lawn and paraded the streets of Lansing. Some were carrying signs, some were fully outfitted with assault rifles and ammunition, and some were just there to be there. While they were 'exercising their rights', many people living in Lansing were afraid in their homes, listening to the orchestra of car horns and screaming.
> 
> 
> 
> I am so embarrassed for all of those people.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, there are more emerging cases of the virus in counties that previously had very few cases. Gee, I wonder if collecting in Lansing to protest helped with that? Our Governor was going to slowly start opening up the state this week. I didn't listen to her most recent talk, but I would be willing to bet that all of these selfish people are going to slowdown our state re-opening even further.
> 
> 
> 
> If that happens, I just want to know why they couldn't wait two weeks more and continue abiding by the rules set in place so hopefully things would start improving.
> 
> :shrug:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other news, the "rescue" that I got one of my horses from has been posting on her personal page often about the virus. A few months ago now she shared a picture of Minnie and I on her personal and rescue page, without my permission, taken from my personal page. I didn't like this, but it didn't hurt anything, and at the very least showed I know my stuff. Well the combination of having a picture of me on her page and discriminatory posts about the virus, I officially told her to take down any pictures including me. I haven't read her response, and I'm not going to. I don't want to be affiliated with her in any way, especially if I want to ever start training horses ago. I support all fellow humans, not all fellow humans minus "the Chinese virus ones".
> 
> :shrug:


Certainly there are two sides regardless of ones political persuasion. Quarantine and making a living is the see-saw balance.
People could remain in lockdown hoping for a government handout until that's exhausted or work. Working within reasonable viral guidelines certainly is the best choice.
Politicians placate to their constituency, so which came first the chicken or the egg? The safest route a politician can take is safety first. Health and lives priority one.
Then you have protesters who believe which is worse, the virus or starvation?
Protesters at some point tip the quarantine/freedom scale. 
It's a very tough complex situation that's going to take time in phases with data. 


Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## ACinATX

So, the store where I do most of my shopping has instituted, among other things, "one way" aisles. All the other ideas make sense, but the one way aisles seems ridiculous to me. I suppose the idea is that everyone will walk at the same pace, stopping at the same time, never passing anyone else, going in the same direction, and thus maintain social distance. But that's obviously not happening. Today I was walking down the back of the store and needed something from an aisle that was "one way" in the wrong direction. According to the signs, I was supposed to go down another aisle first (where there was someone actually shopping, so I would have had to go right past her) before I came back up this aisle (which was empty). I just went the "wrong way".

If anyone thinks this one-way aisle is a good idea, can you explain why? I don't mind doing my part, but as in the example above, it seems pointless at best and counter-productive at worst.


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## walkinthewalk

Tennessee’s Governor Bill Lee announced a 4-phase recovery program today. I did not hear him speak, I only heard the recap on Channel 4 Nashville.

This is part of his plan. It makes sense, if only people will comply.

BEGIN QUOTE from TN.gov

Economic Recovery Guidance

Gov. Lee is working to safely open as many Tennessee businesses as possible in 89 of our 95 counties next week. We continue to engage directly with larger communities in the remaining 6 counties as we support their unique re-open plans (Shelby, Madison, Davidson, Hamilton, Knox and Sullivan counties)

Gov. Bill Lee previewed two industry reopens that will be covered in-depth tomorrow.

· Restaurants operating at 50% capacity and following the guidance will be allowed to open on Monday, April 27. 

· Retail outfits operating at 50% capacity and following the guidance will be allowed to open next Wednesday, April 29. 

Additional details will be announced at Friday’s press briefing with Tennessee’s Economic Recovery Group and full guidance will be posted here. 

END QUOTE from TN.gov

In my two counties, the one Inlive in and the neighboring county I do the bulk of my shopping in:

1. My county jumped from 24 known Covid19 cases to 117 in less than two weeks. 79 of those cases came from my county’s Tyson Chicken Plant, 12 miles from me. Their union is demanding Tyson shut the plant down and do some major cleaning.

There has also been two Covid19 related deaths.

2. Conversely the other county seems to be holding steady with 24 known cases and zero deaths. 

These counties border each other on their East-west borders.

3. People were wearing masks (including me) at the chiropractor‘s office, and/or waiting in their cars for their appointments.

4. I had to run to the all animal clinic in my county for Previcox for Joker. They allow one person at a time to sign in, then go wait in the car until called. They had my meds ready for me, so I wrote the check, got my meds and left. Masks were not a requirement but I had mine on.

5. The small animal clinics in “The other county”, where I had to take my Rottweiler for x-rays, and follow-up, has curbside service only. The vet either calls you or comes to the car wearing a mask to discuss your critter with you. When the visit is complete, a tech brings the animal back to your car.

It seems like the “other county” got with the program a lot faster than my county and they are a bit more rural. I think the difference is the mean age of the people in both counties. The other county is a little older in general, and a lot smarter & cautious. Plus the air base is over there and they know the skinny on stuff before the newspapers and the governor knows


----------



## SilverMaple

ACinATX said:


> So, the store where I do most of my shopping has instituted, among other things, "one way" aisles. All the other ideas make sense, but the one way aisles seems ridiculous to me. I suppose the idea is that everyone will walk at the same pace, stopping at the same time, never passing anyone else, going in the same direction, and thus maintain social distance. But that's obviously not happening. Today I was walking down the back of the store and needed something from an aisle that was "one way" in the wrong direction. According to the signs, I was supposed to go down another aisle first (where there was someone actually shopping, so I would have had to go right past her) before I came back up this aisle (which was empty). I just went the "wrong way".
> 
> If anyone thinks this one-way aisle is a good idea, can you explain why? I don't mind doing my part, but as in the example above, it seems pointless at best and counter-productive at worst.


Yes, you're supposed to go down the other aisle and then back up the one you need the item from in the correct direction. The idea for this is that nobody meets in an aisle; it's nearly impossible not to pass close to another person in a supermarket aisle if you're going different directions. Some stores take it very seriously and have the ends of the aisles cordoned off, so if you miss something, you have to go back to the beginning by the entrance and pass up and down each aisle again and start ALL OVER. And yes, if someone ahead of you stops or is already in the aisle browsing, you're supposed to stop a safe distance away until they have moved on before you move again. It's really the only way to keep people apart in a store, and I think it will be widely instituted in nearly all retail areas soon. Ours requires the one-way aisles unless there are only a couple of shoppers in the store, in which case you can move around as you want as long as you don't meet or pass anyone in an aisle.


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## Acadianartist

carshon said:


> Here in my rural county cases are slowly increasing. We are at 30 cases now and 3 deaths - and we are seeing and hearing a lot more grumbling about staying at home. More traffic, more people out - and it is scary. My son is one that is young and feels invincible and says he doesn't "care" if he gets it. The thing is I care if he gets it. His social life is suffering and that is all he can think about now. Meanwhile our state (IL) continues to see 1000 new cases per day - yes, most of these are Chicago and the suburbs but we know from when the virus first made appearances here that Chicagoans are not staying in Chicago.
> 
> A former co-worker posts daily on the book of faces about how her son is failing at the home schooling. He is a Sophomore in HS (16yrs old) and has convinced his parents that he did not understand the homework assignments for a few of his classes and could not get a hold of his teachers. Now he is failing quite a few classes and his ability to play sports this fall is in jeopardy. The mother is calling teachers out by name in her posts and blaming them for her sons failing. I get it, home schooling is hard and making time to make sure your kids are staying caught up is also hard. BUT even while my kids were in school our school made it easy to check on their progress and see whether their assignments were and how their grades were. I feel like I may be one of a very few parents who stayed on top of that. All the while working a full time job and traveling at least one week out of every six.
> 
> So many of the posts I see now just make me sad


Yeah, I call BS on the mom and son. My kids tell me about classmates who pretend not to have access to a website but spend all day online playing games, or telling the teacher that they can't meet on line at 1:30 pm because they'll be asleep, or that they just can't motivate themselves to work from home because they just play video games all day! Really? Suck it up! I have to wake my son up every day at least 3 times before he's out of bed. Then I have to nag him to shower, clean his room and exercise. I ask about his homework, I do some of it with him. I look after the horses and ride with my daughter. And STILL I find time to stay on top of my own work too. 

Yes, we are among the lucky ones, I fully acknowledge that. But a lot of people are viewing this as a way to opt out of working. 

As for the teens working @boots, you're right, I don't know the circumstances of all the teens working. But the ones I do know have two parents who still have jobs and earn good wages in very high-placed white collar careers. They don't NEED the money to help the family survive. I shouldn't judge, I know. Generally speaking, I'd be entirely in favour of teens earning a dollar. But when they can't do their schoolwork, but can go scoop out ice cream all day, unless the family truly is in financial need (and the ones I know are NOT), it makes no sense to me. What are the kids learning about priorities and planning for the future? We will still need science and people with degrees to help us out of this mess. Sorry for the rant. I'm not targeting all teens working, I just can't wrap my head around the fact that they would normally still be in high school right now, so their priority should still be to finish that.


----------



## boots

@Acadianartist - Ahhh. I didn't know you knew the kid(s).

Here it's pretty sad for some of them. High school and college kids. Some of the college kids were better off staying here and trying to make it rather than go home. People made room in their houses. Usually people who also has kids in college. Others are offering work.


----------



## Fuddyduddy1952

walkinthewalk said:


> Tennessee’s Governor Bill Lee announced a 4-phase recovery program today. I did not hear him speak, I only heard the recap on Channel 4 Nashville.
> 
> 
> 
> This is part of his plan. It makes sense, if only people will comply.
> 
> 
> 
> BEGIN QUOTE from TN.gov
> 
> 
> 
> Economic Recovery Guidance
> 
> 
> 
> Gov. Lee is working to safely open as many Tennessee businesses as possible in 89 of our 95 counties next week. We continue to engage directly with larger communities in the remaining 6 counties as we support their unique re-open plans (Shelby, Madison, Davidson, Hamilton, Knox and Sullivan counties)
> 
> 
> 
> Gov. Bill Lee previewed two industry reopens that will be covered in-depth tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> · Restaurants operating at 50% capacity and following the guidance will be allowed to open on Monday, April 27.
> 
> 
> 
> · Retail outfits operating at 50% capacity and following the guidance will be allowed to open next Wednesday, April 29.
> 
> 
> 
> Additional details will be announced at Friday’s press briefing with Tennessee’s Economic Recovery Group and full guidance will be posted here.
> 
> 
> 
> END QUOTE from TN.gov
> 
> 
> 
> In my two counties, the one Inlive in and the neighboring county I do the bulk of my shopping in:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. My county jumped from 24 known Covid19 cases to 117 in less than two weeks. 79 of those cases came from my county’s Tyson Chicken Plant, 12 miles from me. Their union is demanding Tyson shut the plant down and do some major cleaning.
> 
> 
> 
> There has also been two Covid19 related deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Conversely the other county seems to be holding steady with 24 known cases and zero deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> These counties border each other on their East-west borders.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. People were wearing masks (including me) at the chiropractor‘s office, and/or waiting in their cars for their appointments.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. I had to run to the all animal clinic in my county for Previcox for Joker. They allow one person at a time to sign in, then go wait in the car until called. They had my meds ready for me, so I wrote the check, got my meds and left. Masks were not a requirement but I had mine on.
> 
> 
> 
> 5. The small animal clinics in “The other county”, where I had to take my Rottweiler for x-rays, and follow-up, has curbside service only. The vet either calls you or comes to the car wearing a mask to discuss your critter with you. When the visit is complete, a tech brings the animal back to your car.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like the “other county” got with the program a lot faster than my county and they are a bit more rural. I think the difference is the mean age of the people in both counties. The other county is a little older in general, and a lot smarter & cautious. Plus the air base is over there and they know the skinny on stuff before the newspapers and the governor knows
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'm thinking:
> 
> "My county jumped from 24 known Covid19 cases to 117 in less than two weeks. 79 of those cases came from my county’s Tyson Chicken Plant, 12 miles from me. Their union is demanding Tyson shut the plant down and do some major cleaning."
> 
> And then followed by...
> 
> "It seems like the “other county” got with the program a lot faster than my county and they are a bit more rural. I think the difference is the mean age of the people in both counties. The other county is a little older in general, and a lot smarter & cautious."
> 
> Is self explanatory. In your county is the Tyson chicken plant where most of the cases originated, which makes sense, not that your adjacent county has fewer cases because they're smarter and cautious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


----------



## walkinthewalk

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Is self explanatory. In your county is the Tyson chicken plant where most of the cases originated, which makes sense, not that your adjacent county has fewer cases because they're smarter and cautious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


Correct to a point as Tyson is in trouble at another processing plant, a few counties north.

However, there was a point where entrepreneurial type businesses in my county did not take this Covid19 anywhere near as serious as their peers in the next county. 

My insurance agent, for example, had commented she is (she is still open to he public but with reduced hours) the only insurance agent in town who hasn’t closed her doors to clients — she is also one of the younger ones and honestly at one point believed there wasn’t much to worry about. 

I stand by my thoughts the next county over was smarter and more cautious, at an earlier point in time. Now that the horse is long ago out of the barn, my county is catching up. I made it thru almost every traffic light without stopping because the streets were empty today

When talking to people, I have always found there is a different mindset between these two counties. The only thing they seem to nearly all agree on, is what color this state should be politically——-


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## Acadianartist

I keep thinking that my part of the world has not been hit hardly at all, and that I should just be grateful and not look a gift horse in the mouth. Except that of all people, this group knows far better than that and would, on the contrary, tell me to get a thorough ppe yesterday...


----------



## boots

Speaking of PPE, but meaning Personal Protective Equipment...

We finally got N95 masks. I'm grateful. 

Our hospital has been having us follow CDC guidelines. But some are doing more than required.

In my department, most are changing clothes at work and changing before going home. I did some ergonomic evaluations at a hog containment farm years ago and stayed in contact with the manager. I remember being impressed with their biosecurity measures. Showering when you enter and before you leave. The work clothes never leave the building. 

I called him and got a list of measures they take and am replicating them as closely as I can. A few of my coworkers are also doing this.

Oddly, I don't see the nurses being as cautious. I really don't understand that.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

We live in Bedford county, Virginia. My 93 y.o. Mother lives where I grew up, adjacent county over South.
So we've had 21 cases, 1 hospitalization, 0 deaths. Campbell has had 10 cases, zero hospitalization and deaths.
My brother lives in Fairfax county (D.C.area), where Corona started in Virginia , 2362 cases, 431 hospitalizations, 76 deaths.
The map clearly shows the correlation is population density. 
Politically speaking, Virginia is all blue primarily because of those densely populated areas around D.C., Richmond, eastern shore. Not so much in rural Virginia.
Like all illnesses, colds, flu, covid there's a direct correlation with density. 
Viruses are apolitical and I believe we (USA) have taken all the steps we can controlling the spred. The toughest part is getting people back working again safely.









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## Spanish Rider

So, after 6 weeks, the government is letting children under 14 go out for walks with their parents. They are also touting the fact that we have come down off the peak.

The convention center field hospital is being shut down in sections. The skating-rink morgue is now no longer needed and has been closed.

However, we still have *4000+ new cases per day and 400+ deaths per day*, so I do not understand the complacency.


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## ClearDonkey

Fuddyduddy1952 said:


> Certainly there are two sides regardless of ones political persuasion. Quarantine and making a living is the see-saw balance.
> People could remain in lockdown hoping for a government handout until that's exhausted or work. Working within reasonable viral guidelines certainly is the best choice.
> Politicians placate to their constituency, so which came first the chicken or the egg? The safest route a politician can take is safety first. Health and lives priority one.
> Then you have protesters who believe which is worse, the virus or starvation?
> Protesters at some point tip the quarantine/freedom scale.
> It's a very tough complex situation that's going to take time in phases with data.


There are ways to safely protest, or at least do it more safely. They should have stayed in their cars. They could've written letters to the Governor. Instead they choose to endanger themselves, their families, and everything that had nothing to do with it.

Today MI is announcing a lengthened quarantine because of the new wave of confirmed cases, where they were not previously, which consequently followed the protest. The most recent data shows that nearly 10% of those with the confirmed virus are dying in my state.

However, I think small businesses and seasonal businesses will begin open their doors again, which they should. My stepdad owns a roofing business and lost 2 months of his normal working season. My SO's mother works in landscaping and lost 2 months of her working season. I would be over the moon if barns can start opening back up for lessons, as they are technically seasonal businesses.

Who knows what the right or wrong move right now is in the areas that are being hit hard. I certainly don't. I give enormous and credit to my governor at the very least, because she is doing her very best, despite people sitting outside her house protesting.


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## Acadianartist

boots said:


> Speaking of PPE, but meaning Personal Protective Equipment...
> 
> We finally got N95 masks. I'm grateful.
> 
> Our hospital has been having us follow CDC guidelines. But some are doing more than required.
> 
> In my department, most are changing clothes at work and changing before going home. I did some ergonomic evaluations at a hog containment farm years ago and stayed in contact with the manager. I remember being impressed with their biosecurity measures. Showering when you enter and before you leave. The work clothes never leave the building.
> 
> I called him and got a list of measures they take and am replicating them as closely as I can. A few of my coworkers are also doing this.
> 
> Oddly, I don't see the nurses being as cautious. I really don't understand that.


Interesting that the farming industry has a lot to teach us in terms of biosecurity. A couple of years ago, we had a Strangles scare in my area and everyone stocked up on Virkon. It's being put to good use now in barns that allow boarders to come visit their horses (only one boarder per barn at any given time, and every door and gate gets disinfected afterwards).


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## Hondo

I read that ivermectin was one of the drugs in trial for treatment. Who would have thought?


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## SilverMaple

Hondo said:


> I read that ivermectin was one of the drugs in trial for treatment. Who would have thought?


Ivermectin kills covid in a test tube, but so does bleach... whether it works in the body is something else entirely. However, as soon as the article saying this was shared a few weeks ago, I added Ivermectin to my spring order of horse vaccines, and I'm glad I did. It's now been taken off the shelves at the farm stores as people were buying it to dose themselves and their kids as a preventative, and some online sites are sold out or not selling it. My vet clinic has stopped selling heartworm preventative except on a monthly basis for the time being as they were seeing the same thing. Now you bring the dog to the clinic, the receptionist brings out one dose and feeds it to the dog in the parking lot. You can no longer purchase 6-12 months' supply at a time until further notice.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

SilverMaple said:


> Ivermectin kills covid in a test tube, but so does bleach... whether it works in the body is something else entirely. However, as soon as the article saying this was shared a few weeks ago, I added Ivermectin to my spring order of horse vaccines, and I'm glad I did. It's now been taken off the shelves at the farm stores as people were buying it to dose themselves and their kids as a preventative, and some online sites are sold out or not selling it. My vet clinic has stopped selling heartworm preventative except on a monthly basis for the time being as they were seeing the same thing. Now you bring the dog to the clinic, the receptionist brings out one dose and feeds it to the dog in the parking lot. You can no longer purchase 6-12 months' supply at a time until further notice.


People are crazy...period! [emoji21]

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## boots

A local business had a box of N95 masks that fit better than what our facility have is. They have the nicer masks to my department, specifically. We are hanging on to them. 

They will be sterilized every five days. And up to four times.

Funny, I heard a doctor from Buffalo, NY say he wished there was a way to reuse the N95s. How would he not know about the light and heat treatment if we do in my town 1% of his city's size?

I let our infection control team know. They are going to double check our protocol, and contact the hospital there.


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## ACinATX

In the news today, a suggestion that it can cause stroke in people in their 30s and 40s. But it's not been reported much in mainstream media. I'm not sure if that's because it's so weird or whether it's just not true. Here is a news source I more or less trust:
https://komonews.com/news/local/new-covid-19-side-effect-in-people-under-50

Symptoms of stroke: remember FAST

F is face drooping.

A is for arm weakness.

S is for speech difficulty.

T is for time. Act as quickly as possible.


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## SilverMaple

I've seen articles saying quite a few covid patients show massive pulmonary embolism on autopsy. And a lot of the symptoms of severe covid mimic the symptoms of PE, so without a CT scan of every patient, you don't know who has it and who doesn't. And apparently it takes a very long time to sanitize the CT, so they feasibly can't do everyone. I see some hospitals are putting all severe covid patients on blood thinners assuming they have a clot, but that also increases the risk of pulmonary hemorrhage with severe coughing... Whatever this virus does, it affects the ability of the red blood cells to carry oxygen, so a clotting issue is not out of the realm. Add in dehydration and not much movement, and it's a perfect recipe for a PE or massive blood clot. This could also explain why a significant number of patients are walking and talking then crash so precipitously that they are dead by the time the nurses make the next set of rounds or even answer the call light. 

Scary stuff.


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## Hondo

I read somewhere that the over reaction of the immune system was what caused a lot of crashing and even death. Good thing I wormed Hondo. Maybe in 6 months it'll be back. Actually I use one that has ivermectin but other also.....forget.


Amazing. One ad about a trial and everything is gone.


Yep, the more I read the scarier the stuff is sounding. So unpredictable.


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## gottatrot

This is what we have been experiencing in most of the U.S. - a very big reduction in patients in hospitals.
We have been hearing reports of people who were told to not see a doctor (by non-medical staff) until their Covid test came back negative. In many cases these people ended up having serious problems from their illnesses. For example, someone with a high fever was told their Covid test was negative, so they were fine. This person ended up hospitalized later with sepsis. Another was told not to see a doctor for a sore throat until their Covid results came back. Their strep worsened and they ended up with secondary infections. 

The mantra right now of nurses I know is that *Covid is not the only thing that can kill you*! There are hundreds of very bad things you need to go to the hospital for! This article talks about the problem.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/well/live/coronavirus-doctors-hospitals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html

The good news is that in my state we will be opening up routine surgeries again in about a week. If routine diagnostic procedures will also be allowed, it will be a big benefit to everyone's health. It has been ridiculous with people getting hospitalized and having life-threatening complications from things that require surgical intervention, meanwhile the life-saving measures such as surgery are being called "elective" or "routine." We have many patients in the hospital currently that are "Covid related," meaning they don't have Covid but ended up hospitalized because the treatments they normally would have had were unavailable or delayed.



> Meanwhile, the immediate message to patients is clear: Don’t delay needed treatment. If fear of the pandemic leads people to delay or avoid care, then the death rate will extend far beyond those directly infected by the virus. Time to treatment dictates the outcomes for people with heart attacks and strokes. These deaths may not be labeled Covid-19 deaths, but surely, they are collateral damage.
> 
> The public needs to know that hospitals are equipped not only to care for people with Covid-19 but also those who have other life-threatening health problems. Yes, we in health care are working to keep people out of the hospital if we can, but we can safely provide care for those people who are not sick from Covid-19. Masks and protective gear for health care workers and patients go a long way to ensure a safe environment. Also, people with chronic conditions need to know that avoidance of needed care could ultimately be as big a threat as the virus itself.
> 
> As we fight coronavirus, we need to combat perceptions that everyone else must stay away from the hospital. The pandemic toll will be much worse if it leads people to avoid care for life-threatening, yet treatable, conditions like heart attacks and strokes.


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## SilverMaple

Our state is opening up elective procedures and appointments today "if the facility can do so safely" because people are dying from lack of treatment for other problems, and hospitals and clinics are laying off staff because there's no income from non-covid patients and procedures... which is all well and good, but there still isn't enough PPE, so I'm not sure how that is going to work, especially as our area is now being hard-hit as more and more of the meat packing plants have dozens or hundreds of workers testing positive, who then take it home to their families, who then spread it unknowingly at Walmart and Lowe's before they have symptoms.... the county next to us is now the hotspot in the nation as their covid-positive cases more than doubled in 24 hours.

Because so many plants are closing, hog producers have no market for their animals. They are selling any way they can. Yesterday I took the horse trailer down the road to a producer and bought 2 300-lb hogs straight off the farm for $75 each, took them to the meat locker, and in a few days will pick up a bunch of meat. They took one hog to process and sell in trade for the cost of processing the other into our cuts, so we'll get a full hog's worth of meat for $150 plus the cost of pressure washing the trailer out at the truck wash after.


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## avjudge

ACinATX said:


> In the news today, a suggestion that it can cause stroke in people in their 30s and 40s. But it's not been reported much in mainstream media. I'm not sure if that's because it's so weird or whether it's just not true. Here is a news source I more or less trust:
> https://komonews.com/news/local/new-covid-19-side-effect-in-people-under-50


I think this is just starting to make news - I was reading about Covid-19-related strokes yesterday (Washington Post). 

And a day or two before that, there was an article somewhere (mainstream source) about the odd overall clotting that doctors are seeing - which would be the cause of both the strokes and the PEs that @SilverMaple wrote about. The article on the clotting mentioned dialysis machines being unusually clogged, and infected women having problems in childbirth (among other things). The article also pointed out we already know a virus can affect blood clotting - Ebola, just in the opposite direction.

So it sounds like it's almost certainly a real effect of the virus, though at this point the mechanism (directly or through the immune system reaction) isn't understood.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Today we're at 3193 confirmed cases, 194 dead. Aaaaaaaand we're starting to open up businesses again. Still adding 100+ confirmed cases/day but we want to open things up again.....Pray for herd immunity, real quick.


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## SilverMaple

We have 650 new cases in our state today for a total of 5092, but we're still on-track to open up May 1 as planned.... ugh.


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## Horsef

Serbia, almost 8000 cases, 290 new today - we are also opening up slowly. However, there is a method to madness over here. Our doctors are saying that the strain we got here is getting weaker. The incubation period has almost doubled, respirator cases are dropping every day even though we are getting new cases. Also, they are confident that our contact tracing procedures are correct. They’ve really ramped up testing and those 290 new cases mostly came from the contact tracing, almost all asymptomatic. They are also saying that people are getting much less sick overall- as evidenced by the number of patients on respirators and number of fully asymptomatic patients.


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## tinyliny

If a less virulent strain is becoming evident, it might be smart to purposefully expose oneself to it. It's a gamble, but it might give a person enough immunity to be free from the fear of the worst covid effects.


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## RegalCharm

tinyliny said:


> If a less virulent strain is becoming evident, it might be smart to purposefully expose oneself to it. It's a gamble, but it might give a person enough immunity to be free from the fear of the worst covid effects.


That could be a good suggestion if you would know in advance the person or persons you would catch it from had the weaker virus. But life is a gamble and with as many people who have/had the worst version of the virus the odds might not be in your favor.

A hospital across the river in WV is going to start elective surgery again next week


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## ACinATX

tinyliny said:


> If a less virulent strain is becoming evident, it might be smart to purposefully expose oneself to it. It's a gamble, but it might give a person enough immunity to be free from the fear of the worst covid effects.


I had raised this idea earlier. But now I'm seeing more news articles suggesting that getting it once may not confer future immunity, which seems pretty scary.


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## Aprilswissmiss

Has anyone heard about the otherwise healthy, non-symptomatic 30 and 40 year-olds who are developing strokes as a symptom of this virus? I would absolutely not want to expose myself intentionally with so many unknowns.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Horsef said:


> Serbia, almost 8000 cases, 290 new today - we are also opening up slowly. However, there is a method to madness over here. Our doctors are saying that the strain we got here is getting weaker. The incubation period has almost doubled, respirator cases are dropping every day even though we are getting new cases. Also, they are confident that our contact tracing procedures are correct. They’ve really ramped up testing and those 290 new cases mostly came from the contact tracing, almost all asymptomatic. They are also saying that people are getting much less sick overall- as evidenced by the number of patients on respirators and number of fully asymptomatic patients.


If we were doing anything even remotely sensible as this, I'd feel a whole lot better about opening up. However, since you STILL can't get tested around here, then no, I'm not good with it. If this wasn't a family forum, I'd be having a whole lot more to say, a lot of it not fit for young ears.


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## Horsef

tinyliny said:


> If a less virulent strain is becoming evident, it might be smart to purposefully expose oneself to it.  It's a gamble, but it might give a person enough immunity to be free from the fear of the worst covid effects.


It seems that our strain is becoming less virulent but it’s still plenty dangerous to some people. It is still killing some people. I guess so is the flu... I personally wouldn’t want to get infected purposefully. There’s is still a lot of unknowns about this virus - immunity first and foremost. I guess most of us will catch it sooner or later but I’d rather wait for more research. I get a feeling it’s here to stay.


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## Horsef

Interesting phenomena - which someone predicted could happen: our overall number of deaths in Serbia has fallen in the last six weeks compared to previous years. Less traffic deaths, no elective surgery, people not taking many risks...Just looking at my little slice of world - hardly anyone is riding at the moment for fear of getting injured. I can just imagine the doctors faces if they got a patient who injured themselves voluntarily - "Just throw her out onto the garbage heap, we don't need her".


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## tinyliny

Interesting how now that there's this awareness of the disease causing more deaths or strokes in young people, that people are taking it a whole lot more seriously. I mean, it's different, apparently, when it's not just a "boomer remover".


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## Horsef

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> If we were doing anything even remotely sensible as this, I'd feel a whole lot better about opening up. However, since you STILL can't get tested around here, then no, I'm not good with it. If this wasn't a family forum, I'd ybe having a whole lot more to say, a lot of it not fit for young ears.


Eh, Serbia is a tiny country, 6 or 7 million people, with a communist past. So people are much easier to wrangle and medical facilities are mainly state owned and centralized. A lot of old communist epidemiology protocols and institutions were kept after the transition. Each city still has an epidemiological facility which was kept fully operational all these years, tracking seasonal flu and measles and whatnot. All of that costs money.

Also, our understanding of human rights is slightly different to yours. Presently, no one can refuse testing (well, no one tried, that wasn’t an issue) and we HAVE to go to containment facilities if we get a positive test - those large halls are mainly used for completely asymptomatic people. So, completely healthy people are locked up in temporary hospitals. There was some noise about human rights but nowhere close to the outrage it would cause in a Western democracy. 

Testing is firmly state procured and run. Private facilities aren’t allowed to administer tests. This time we were lucky that the state was organized but there would have been no recourse if the state didn’t get its act together.

So, it’s a payoff - free market and human rights seem to be a scale, rather than binary values. In this particular case, so far, the reduction of our human rights wasn’t abused (as far as I know). But, those instruments exist and have a potential to be misused.


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## Acadianartist

Well, here in New Brunswick, we are beginning to open up as the government announced its plan on Friday for a very gradual reopening First thing on the agenda was the two household "bubble" where two households are allowed to visit each other, but no one else. Already, there are lots of reports of people abusing this. It's a bit chaotic. We're remained on our own for now (my parents live two hours away and since my husband still works in the city, it is too risky for them, and we don't have any siblings near us). We have never been terribly sociable anyway, so it doesn't really change anything for us, but people seem to be jumping at the chance to socialize and everyone is out there looking for their "other household" or just throwing caution to the wind and visiting several households. Borders remain closed to other provinces, thank goodness. Too many cases north and south of us. 

Some businesses are allowed to re-open if they can maintain social distancing and parks and outdoor activities are allowed to resume - but not organized sports. This leaves riding stables in a big of a grey area. Our provincial association is seeking clarification on this. 

This is the first phase of four, the last of which will only happen when we get a vaccine or large-scale herd immunity. What people don't understand is that this is the government's way of letting people get infected slowly. Since we have had no new cases in a week, and have completely flattened the curve without ever getting many cases, it's time to start letting people get infected. At least that's my interpretation of this decision. This is not about the economy, but rather about rewarding a population for complying with government directives (well, to some extent since not everyone complied). They are also telling people to wear masks when out in public. 

It will be interesting to see our numbers two weeks from now.


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## Spanish Rider

> I heard a doctor from Buffalo, NY say he wished there was a way to reuse the N95s.


I don't get it. The Stanford study came out a good 3-4 weeks ago.


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## egrogan

Some bad news today, one of my dearest friends has been sick with covid for the past month and doesn't seem to be improving. She has been testing positive continually during this time and thinks she's going to have to go to the hospital today she's feeling so bad. Fortunately she has a big support network and her husband, who was also sick, has recovered enough to be the primary caregiver for their 6 year old son. She's had very bad asthma since she was a child, and a host of allergies (e.g., so allergic to any kind of animal that in the 20+ years we've been close, she's never been inside a house I've lived in since I've always had at least a cat as a pet), so the respiratory impacts are magnified for her. She's in New Orleans and as much as I dearly love the city, the hospitals there don't exactly inspire confidence even on a good day. It sucks being so far away and not being able to do anything but wait for other friends who live there to update the rest of us.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Welp, we're now at 3253 cases and 195 deaths. 

A perfect example of why I'm not comfortable with throwing it all wide open again is the gain of over 100 cases/day and people still can't get tested. Where my husband works, is up in the NW section of the state, heavily agricultural and ASSUMED not heavily affected. But, how would they know? He works for the largest healthcare provider in the state and they are not testing. They are not referring to the ER for testing. Private labs are not testing and the county scheduled one day to test by appointment and have not repeated it since. So they are reporting 11 cases. Obviously, people so sick they got transferred to a more equipped acute facility down in OKC that IS testing but testing up where he works is pretty much nonexistent. 

Based on first hand reports, I don't trust the numbers, and we're still gaining over 100 cases per day in the state which obviously is low, so why on earth are they in such a rush to open everything back up? I suspect this is going to cause a HUGE surge in cases once they do.


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## tinyliny

@egrogan . . . . I am so sorry for you and your friend. I will pray that she gets the best care possible and recovers with nothing more than a great story to tell.


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## Spanish Rider

@egrogan , my NOLA health administration friend was scared to death when she was given the CDC projection about 5-6 wks ago. They had quite a scramble in the beginning, but last week she told me that things are going much better than expected. I hope your friend gets the care she needs.

If it is any consolation, my husband's co-worker who was recovering from cancer treatment when she got it has come out of hospital after about a week, and my neighbor's 80-yo mum has just been released after a 3-week hospitalization. We have been receiving more good news lately than bad, which makes me more hopeful.


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## Fuddyduddy1952

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Welp, we're now at 3253 cases and 195 deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> A perfect example of why I'm not comfortable with throwing it all wide open again is the gain of over 100 cases/day and people still can't get tested. Where my husband works, is up in the NW section of the state, heavily agricultural and ASSUMED not heavily affected. But, how would they know? He works for the largest healthcare provider in the state and they are not testing. They are not referring to the ER for testing. Private labs are not testing and the county scheduled one day to test by appointment and have not repeated it since. So they are reporting 11 cases. Obviously, people so sick they got transferred to a more equipped acute facility down in OKC that IS testing but testing up where he works is pretty much nonexistent.
> 
> 
> 
> Based on first hand reports, I don't trust the numbers, and we're still gaining over 100 cases per day in the state which obviously is low, so why on earth are they in such a rush to open everything back up? I suspect this is going to cause a HUGE surge in cases once they do.


"why on earth are they in such a rush to open everything back up? I suspect this is going to cause a HUGE surge in cases once they do."
I'm so glad I'm 68, retired 6 years ago. I was self employed and had a business for many years. If I was 48, it would really be rough if I was unable to open up. I would rather risk getting the virus! 
There are safe ways I or any business could have re-opened. Distance, mask if necessary. 
The neighborhood restaurants we still patronize for take out are hanging on by a thread. Even at half capacity (distancing) I don't know if they could make it even if they reopen.
There's no easy answer, but another Great Depression at the expense of "keeping everyone safe" isn't the answer.
We try keeping busy with projects distancing from the news broadcasts which helps keep our sanity.


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## Acadianartist

egrogan said:


> Some bad news today, one of my dearest friends has been sick with covid for the past month and doesn't seem to be improving. She has been testing positive continually during this time and thinks she's going to have to go to the hospital today she's feeling so bad. Fortunately she has a big support network and her husband, who was also sick, has recovered enough to be the primary caregiver for their 6 year old son. She's had very bad asthma since she was a child, and a host of allergies (e.g., so allergic to any kind of animal that in the 20+ years we've been close, she's never been inside a house I've lived in since I've always had at least a cat as a pet), so the respiratory impacts are magnified for her. She's in New Orleans and as much as I dearly love the city, the hospitals there don't exactly inspire confidence even on a good day. It sucks being so far away and not being able to do anything but wait for other friends who live there to update the rest of us.



I'm so sorry @egrogan. I do hope she gets through this ok! My thoughts are with you, and everyone whose lives are being risked because people think the economy is more important.


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## aubie

We had 706 new cases state wide for a 24 hour period Saturday. But hey you can get your hair and nails done. Or a tattoo.


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## SilverMaple

A good friend in a neighboring state has covid. He's in the hospital on a vent. His wife and two small kids are terrified. He works in a grocery store where customers have been openly disregarding their 'please wear a mask' request because 'this is America, and we still have freedom.' 

Apparently the freedom to risk someone else's life because you don't want to be bothered with the inconvenience of a mask is A-OK in the United States. Makes me livid.


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## egrogan

Thanks everyone. She did go to the ER last night and got a CT scan because she’s really worried about blood clots. Fortunately she was discharged after tests coming back looking ok. She’s still feeling awful and doctors are telling her she’s one of the unlucky ones who seems to be relapsing and definitely not gaining immunity.

I’m just so frustrated at our willful failure of science here. The idiotic ongoing statements that we have plenty of tests, that people should go out and do whatever. We need serious, sustained investment in testing, in understanding how antibodies are built and how long they last, why some people are floored by this and others walking around asypmtomatic. We need to understand who is healthy enough to get some things moving again and who needs to be isolated and/or receiving care. But instead we’re just wasting time with distractions like the pros and cons of drinking Lysol and leaving individual states to fend for themselves. It’s all so stupidly unnecessary because there’s such a deep void in leadership.


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## SilverMaple

egrogan said:


> I’m just so frustrated at our willful failure of science here. The idiotic ongoing statements that we have plenty of tests, that people should go out and do whatever. We need serious, sustained investment in testing, in understanding how antibodies are built and how long they last, why some people are floored by this and others walking around asypmtomatic. We need to understand who is healthy enough to get some things moving again and who needs to be isolated and/or receiving care. But instead we’re just wasting time with distractions like the pros and cons of drinking Lysol and leaving individual states to fend for themselves. It’s all so stupidly unnecessary because there’s such a deep void in leadership.


Exactly. It's a complete failure on SO many levels. Infuriating incompetence, willful lies, and the celebration of ignorance reigns supreme.


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## Horsef

You might find this interesting: one of our non-Covid hospitals had a breach due to asymptomatic patients coming in for treatment. 61 medical personal were positive, only 15 had some symptoms and one of those ended up on a respirator- thankfully pulled through. 91 oncology patients were positive, 36 with symptoms- no one ended up on a respirator. This virus is crazy. Mind you, it could well be that our common flu also also has a large percentage of asymptomatic positives but no-one researched it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Horsef said:


> You might find this interesting: one of our non-Covid hospitals had a breach due to asymptomatic patients coming in for treatment. 61 medical personal were positive, only 15 had some symptoms and one of those ended up on a respirator- thankfully pulled through. 91 oncology patients were positive, 36 with symptoms- no one ended up on a respirator. This virus is crazy. Mind you, it could well be that our common flu also also has a large percentage of asymptomatic positives but no-one researched it.


That is interesting. And how are you learning all this? Because they are TESTING, something we still can't seem to accomplish here.


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## SilverMaple

Well, here we go. Iowa has lifted nearly all restrictions on most of the state starting Friday, in spite of rapidly-spreading virus numbers. Guess it's back to work for me.


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## warwickdecks

Connecticut and Rhode Island are very much shut down. Luckily, local feed stores remain open because they're considered essential. Hoping we open up soon but doesn't seem like we will much before June 1...


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## Horsef

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> That is interesting. And how are you learning all this? Because they are TESTING, something we still can't seem to accomplish here.


Definitely. To get these numbers, they tested 616 people, everyone who could have been in contact.

Overall, our percentage of positive tests vs tested on the day is between 6% and 8%. So we test between 3.500 and 5.500 to get between 200 and 300 positive results. That has been steady over the past week or so.

But I am not sure how contact tracing would work in a large western democracy. I don’t think this type of effort is scalable without some serious invasion of privacy - mobile data first and foremost. Not even going into the logistics of testing such huge numbers. And ethics around delivering test results - that was a hiccup we came up against, even at these “low” numbers. You can’t just slap them on a website and get on with it.

Purple is number tested on the day, orange number of positive tests on the day.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Horsef said:


> Definitely. To get these numbers, they tested 616 people, everyone who could have been in contact.
> 
> Overall, our percentage of positive tests vs tested on the day is between 6% and 8%. So we test between 3.500 and 5.500 to get between 200 and 300 positive results. That has been steady over the past week or so.
> 
> But I am not sure how contact tracing would work in a large western democracy. I don’t think this type of effort is scalable without some serious invasion of privacy - mobile data first and foremost. Not even going into the logistics of testing such huge numbers. And ethics around delivering test results - that was a hiccup we came up against, even at these “low” numbers. You can’t just slap them on a website and get on with it.
> 
> Purple is number tested on the day, orange number of positive tests on the day.


They get a positive test here and they call the person and ask for contact info. If they lie? No way to know. If not, they call the contacts and just say that they MAY have been exposed and should be tested. Will they? Won't they? Will they even be able to find someone who will DO the testing for them? Who knows. That's why I firmly believe we slammed the barn door long after the horse was gone.


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## carshon

60 Minutes had a really interesting episode about the virus last night. There is a Canadian company called Bluedot that does track cell usage and airline flights and was instrumental in helping some areas get prepared before hand. The science behind it is really interesting


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## Acadianartist

carshon said:


> 60 Minutes had a really interesting episode about the virus last night. There is a Canadian company called Bluedot that does track cell usage and airline flights and was instrumental in helping some areas get prepared before hand. The science behind it is really interesting


Yes, early on, reports were shared from mobile companies showing where people were taking their phones in each province. Graphs showing an increase in mobile activity in parks and outdoor spaces, a dramatic drop at places like restaurants and retail. Some mentioned that this may be an invasion of privacy, accessing this mobile data for these purposes. But mostly, people accept it as a way of having an overall idea of whether or not restrictions were working.


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## SwissMiss

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> That is interesting. And how are you learning all this? Because they are TESTING, something we still can't seem to accomplish here.


Yup. Depending on where you live you may not even get tested when you exhibit flu-like symptoms. Just told "go home and quarantine".


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## Aprilswissmiss

SwissMiss said:


> Yup. Depending on where you live you may not even get tested when you exhibit flu-like symptoms. Just told "go home and quarantine".


At the beginning of all this, my SO's mother had horrible flu-like symptoms, had just been traveling in and out of NYC, _and_ is immunocompromised, and they still didn't test her. They let her take a flu test but never told her the results. I'm just thankful whatever it was didn't spread to anyone else in the house.


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## SilverMaple

We're supposedly 'able to test anyone who needs it' but that's not the case. Unless symptoms are bad enough to be admitted to the hospital, or you are a healthcare worker already exposed or work at a packing plant with an outbreak, you still can't be tested here. I don't see the point in putting a bunch of restrictions on our state when we had 2 cases of community spread back in March and now have 400-600 per day and we're opening things back up. The only things that aren't allowed to be open in most counties are basically theaters, museums, and hair salons. Of course, churches now have zero restrictions. So one can't go to a movie but one can go to church and cough all over everyone... A few counties with 'widespread' covid activity are still closed, but the people there will just drive 15 miles to the next county over without restrictions to eat and shop and take the virus with them. "We need citizens to do the right thing." Why would they? They haven't so far. Recreation areas were packed last weekend. Parks are full of kids and parents. Hair stylists are doing people's hair at home because their salons aren't allowed to be open. 

It is so, so frustrating to have done the right things for nearly 2 months only to be told to open back up when the virus is really only just now starting to ramp up in our area. The past two months were for nothing, apparently. Most people still aren't abiding by social distancing or wearing masks, we still can't find toilet paper, cleaning supplies, or hand sanitizer for the businesses opening, we still can't get testing.... what's changed?! Nothing. Only that people are bored and the governors are lifting restrictions under political pressure in spite of NO STATES meeting the criteria for even stage one-- which is a steady decline in cases for at least 2 weeks. Our cases are going UP daily, not down. It's pretty much an accepted thing that we're going to have a big virus spike in about three weeks but no one seems to care anymore. "Get sick and get it over with" seems to be the idea now, in spite of health care workers frantically trying to tell people it's still not safe to be out, there is no evidence of any immunity after being ill, and we don't know enough about the virus to be so lax about getting it. Some businesses are using common sense and staying closed, but others don't have a choice. Our restrictions lift Friday. The announcement was made yesterday at noon. By last evening, people were shooting off fireworks, having backyard parties with neighbors, walking in groups, and NO ONE was wearing a mask in the grocery store in spite of the huge sign as you come in requesting that people do so. It's like everyone's been let off the leash.

Pretty sure that most of the people in the USA right now would have not survived any past world disaster where there actually was some long-standing difficulty. We're supposed to be staying home to save lives and we won't even do that. As a species I guess we get what we deserve. As one woman said the other day, "Surely, we're not the same humans who survived Europe during the dark days of WWII and now we care so little about others we can't even stay home a few weeks?!"


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## tinyliny

Well, maybe your area will reach herd immunity faster. I read that about 5% of the US population has now had this virus. We need 60 to 70% to get it in order to achieve basic herd immunity. Better get crackin'! (that's said with sarcasm)



I think that with a vaccine quite a ways off, our best bet is to focus on treatment protocols. Google up on recent research on antacids . . namely Famitodine (spell?) . . Pepcid. There is anecdotal association with NOT dying, and taking this antacid.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

3253 to 3410 cases and from 195 to 207 deaths. 157 case increase and 12 deaths in crease. Not sounding like we're meeting Step 1 criteria to me....or is it that new, common core math?


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## carshon

IL is the same cases still going up - people not caring and doing what they want because they thing it's a "Chicago" thing. We need testing and it is just not happening


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## ACinATX

I totally agree with @SilverMaple. Here in Texas the governor has decided to open things up, and has said that this new rule supercedes city restrictions. But the new rule is based on numbers (people with Covid) that are meaningless because we don't have anywhere near enough tests available. If I recall correctly, he said that we should have those tests available "soon." How about waiting to re-open until you have the tests that are necessary to give you the numbers you're saying you're basing your decision on?

I also agree that it really stinks that we've been doing all of this sheltering in place, and it's going to mean nothing because we're re-opening too soon. So, all of this time we have been spending at home, wasted. 

I was also hoping to travel to our new place near Seattle to get some work done late this summer. I figured that the projections looked good and that, with caution, it would be safe. But now I'm thinking we're going to have another wave by mid-summer.

A lot of people have sacrificed a lot of things, and these governors are throwing it all away by bending to pressure and opening too early.


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## SilverMaple

Oh get this, the Iowa Department of Health released a tv commercial today telling people that they don't need to be tested (in spite of the governor telling everyone these past six weeks that testing is crucial) and they are now restricting the information about future cases' locations 'to protect patient privacy' a few days after some of the packing plants refused to share their number of positive tests among workers. They are crowing that 'we can now test 3,000 people per day!' But they still aren't testing most people who are ill and requesting testing, and at 3,000 people per day, that still means THREE YEARS before everyone would get even one test. 

Yes, let's keep testing numbers down by telling people not to seek testing and then fudge the numbers released to the public. Oh, and you can freely go to church and pack in tight next to everyone else, but if you go to that same church for a wedding or funeral, you're limited to no more than 10 people in attendance. *face palm*

If you look at which states are reopening sensibly and which are basically throwing caution to the wind, it's pretty clear the reasons why.


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## ACinATX

SilverMaple said:


> Yes, let's keep testing numbers down by telling people not to seek testing and then fudge the numbers released to the public. *face palm*


Right, and don't forget that we can also keep the numbers down by not really trying to get the testing resources we need. Fewer people tested = "fewer cases," right? So that's great! I guess we beat this thing, guys! Great work!

Oh, and one more "bonus" for Texas is that people who work in businesses that are re-opening but are worried about their health and don't want to go to work won't be eligible for unemployment benefits. So, you can stay home to keep yourself (and others) healthy but not be able to make rent, or you can go to work and face the prospect of getting sick (and, no doubt, not being able to pay for medical care). But the important part is that Texas doesn't have to keep paying unemployment to those guys, so we're saving some money!


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## SilverMaple

ACinATX said:


> Right, and don't forget that we can also keep the numbers down by not really trying to get the testing resources we need. Fewer people tested = "fewer cases," right? So that's great! I guess we beat this thing, guys! Great work!
> 
> Oh, and one more "bonus" for Texas is that people who work in businesses that are re-opening but are worried about their health and don't want to go to work won't be eligible for unemployment benefits. So, you can stay home to keep yourself (and others) healthy but not be able to make rent, or you can go to work and face the prospect of getting sick (and, no doubt, not being able to pay for medical care).


Yep, same here. I suspect getting those whose businesses were closed off of unemployment eligibility and the state's dollars, more than anything else, is driving the 'reopening'. And people are thrilled! The comments to a news article on FB stating this has about 95% of respondents elated that "those who have been sitting on their butts for the past month now have to go back to work" and "I risk getting sick but have to work, so should you", "it's about time all the freeloaders have to go to work again" and "don't want to get sick? Stay home and starve or stop living in fear and go back to work."

I am losing faith entirely in the human race. We really do deserve complete extinction with how selfish we've become. The elephant in the room is also the fact that most people dying are older, have preexisting conditions, or are minorities. To many, they see no problem with these people dying so their tax dollars are not paying for nursing home care, Medicare, unemployment, housing benefits, and the like. The majority of workers 'forced back to work' tend to be blue collar workers, city employees, jobs held largely by minorities and immigrants, and lower-income earners. I nearly punched a guy in line ahead of me at the grocery store saying, and I quote: "This is killing old people, black people, brown people, fat people, and sick people... why exactly are we trying to stop it? Those people shouldn't be here anyway. They cost too much." Others agreed with him.... and he's a pastor at a local church..... 

I wish I was making that up, but I'm not.


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## egrogan

That's so sick and twisted @SilverMaple. But let's be honest, the people who think and talk about others that way act on their hatred and racism all the time, not just when there's a pandemic. My brother, an EMT in a southern city, once told me he was glad when he went to shooting calls in one part of the city because that often meant "_they _were killing each other off so there would be less calls like that in the future." HINT: my family is white, the community he "serves" is African American. I haven't spoken with him in a long time, but it's so sad to know he's raising two little girls to carry on that disgusting racism. Makes you wonder how the US stays intact as a single country in the future. But, stopping that train of thought now as it's clearly political.


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## kiwigirl

food for thought.


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## Horsef

Meh, he’s extrapolating numbers from the tested to the entire population. However, the people which were tested were selected for testing because they had reason to be selected - they were either sick or were in contact. In statistics speak- this sample is not representative of the population. I am not saying he is wrong - just that he cannot use the tested sample and extrapolate - the sample would need to be random and stratified to be representative. This is like saying most customers that I see at my make up shop are women so most people out there must be women. Likewise, most people who came to him precisely because they were sick.

Again, I am not saying that he is wrong, just that the argument he is making is scientifically wrong.

This is a real world example: a relative of mine works in a public hospital in Africa. Four out of five patients she sees are HIV positive. Not because everyone out there is HIV positive or because she is an HIV specialist but because people with HIV tend to get sick a lot. It called a self-selecting sample. The true HIV rate within that country is one in five people in the working population and lower overall.


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## Horse girl 07

https://youtu.be/OhxAIOhCPHQ
https://www.google.com/amp/s/calmat...rsfield-doctors-covid-spread-conclusions/amp/


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## Horsef

Just another thought, this doctor is citing samples which range between 5% and 35% positive of the tested. In statistics this is a huge, huge range. Any intelligent person, never mind a doctor would have a major problem with that situation as far as representativeness of the sample goes.


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## gomma

Hi, Italian here, precisely from one of the most affected regions in the north. The situation is dramatic, they finally announced the phase 2 yesterday but it seems like not much will change. Stores should re open in June such as restaurants and bars. No idea about the borders, thing that actually concerns me because my boyfriend lives abroad. Some members of my family were tested positive and my mother was even hospitalized. It was hard, but she's feeling way better now. It's crazy to see this whole thing happen in front of our eyes

Inviato dal mio JSN-L21 utilizzando Tapatalk


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## BzooZu

Slovakia here again. We are either lucky or it hasnt started properly yet. 

Current statistics say:
81338 people tested,
1391 positive,
22 dead,
484 recovered,
180 people hospitalised (53 with covid or 127 with covid symptoms avaiting testing, none on ventilation).

We are slowly starting to open non-essential shops but they are under strict instructions that they need to follow (opening hours, number of customers inside, desinfection/gloves...). For almost 2 months now everyone needed to wear masks outside, schools have been closed, shopping centers also closed, no gatherings allowed at all, no traveling abroad - all those rules still apply. 

We are now testing more people and interestingly if you want to be sure, you can get tested by private laboratories. Of course you need to pay (70 euro) but the fact that you can do that means that more and more people are getting tested either because they have to or because they can (we are now at around 5k tests daily).


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## SilverMaple

We're strongly encouraged' to open even though it's not safe, the next county over is one of the highest growing hot-spots for covid in the country, our building is too small to allow for proper social distancing, we don't have a reliable supply chain of needed sanitizing products, toilet paper, PPE, and the required hand sanitizer and wipes for each person in the door to use much less the staff to clean everything touched after every person in the door, and we can 'suggest' but not require safety precautions like social distancing and masks. People were wearing them a couple of weeks ago, but now are not. I feel like the safety of myself and my employees is being thrown to the wolves.

And for those wondering, yes, this definitely infects children. A Tyson meat plant nearby is testing every employee and their families. As of yesterday, the first day of testing, nearly 30 children have tested positive--- about half are symptomatic, half are asymptomatic so far. And once it became known that children were included in the cases at relatively high numbers, their county clamped down and is now no longer releasing the ages of anyone testing positive 'to avoid panicking the public and affecting new-hire rates' now that it has been decided it's illegal to close a meat plant due to covid among the workers. So we now don't know how many of those still being tested this week are workers and how many are families/kids.


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## tinyliny

A very good article, written by two statesmen in my state, made the astute point that the BEST economic plan is to very, very conservative on opening business . IT is better, in the long run, to delay openning (to act on the side of caution) because what REALLY matters for economic health is consumer confidence.


If people do not FEEL safe, they will not come out to buy/spend. If there is a rebound in the virus, all the confidence that was slowly built by the first lengthy shutdown will be utterly lost, and people will fear that even a second shutdown will do nothing for them. Fear will become more rampant, and people will be afraid to go out and buy even when the next wave subsides.


Additionally, every illness that requires hospitalization costs the economy beaucoup bucks. So, openning too soon, causing another wave, COSTS the economy more than is gained by openning soon.


The best thing for the economy would be for the Federal Government to take the reins , begin massive support of developmet of testing, and vaccine research. The faster the illness can be contained, and / or treated better, the faster REAL consumer confidence will return, and *consumer confidence is absolute key to a healthy economy.*


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## SilverMaple

I totally agree that consumer confidence is the key to a healthy economy, coupled with people who aren't saddled with huge medical bills or dead.... dead people don't spend money. Sick people cost money. I don't see why our country doesn't seem to realize that opening too soon will be more catastrophic than too late, and a large spike in illness/death would tank the economy even more and slow its recovery far longer than extending closures for awhile, even if it means paying every citizen deemed non-essential to stay home. Essential and frontline workers are safer if everyone else is home and going out only for necessities, too.


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## boots

CLOSED for review. Wandering off topic.




EDIT: some new political content has been removed from this thread. The thread will remain closed until we've decided what to do with it, since it has taken political turn again, after few mod notes and warnings. People who need to be contacted (for example for sharing political content) will be contacted later, once the Moderating Team has made some more permanent or at least long-lasting decisions about this thread.


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## horselovinguy

*This thread is closing permanently* unless the moderation team can be convinced to reopen in a private discussion via a Talk to the Team Privately thread..


The decision to remove political based discussions (N&P) was not made lightly. 
This thread was allowed as a space to share and moderated when politics crept in. 
At this point the thread has turned political in nature. That is the nature of the beast. Due to the direction the thread has taken it will remain closed as there are sufficient alternate locations for the politics to be discussed.


_hlg._
_forum team moderator_


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