# Am I being an unreasonable person?



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Here is the basic story. We own a lakefront property, and have for about 30 years. It was my parents before ours, so I have been here over 50 years. When it comes to property lines, being that very foot of frontage on the water is about $4K, people get ****y. Including me. Now, I have 75 ft with house, etc. Not much land, but who cares- I have water. Next to me there is a guy who owns 12.4 ft. Truly. 12.4. House across the street from the lake, behind our shed, has not been maintained in as long as I have been here. Neighbor was my dads nemesis, and I inherited that. Miserable man. Wife died right here on the beach and he has never gotten over it, in spite of remarrying 25 yrs ago. We have had numerous discussions over the years, some of which have resulted in him literally jumping on my dock coming after me.

He tried to sell back in the mid 90's, we looked, since we would like a garage and need the land-and the house is a tear down. Feral cats lived there last winter. Not a nice place, seasonal at best. He has now listed it again which is fine-most anyone would be better than him. However-the person years ago who drew up the property lines was on some good drugs……they are ridiculous. We own one car length at the bottom of what he has always used as a driveway. He is WELL aware of this, as I park there from time to time, and have told him that there is NO right of way, easement, etc. WE OWN IT. PERIOD. He owns just to the south of it and can move the driveway, but would have to move water lines and electric service, which is not my issue.

We have had a new survey done, flags are in, I called the title company to double check-NO easement. So now what do we do? DH said he would right a letter to the agent and neighbor, but honestly-with his MS he just is not what he used to be. Shall I persue this or let it be found in the title search of the prospective owner? I have NO desire to grant ANY easement at all, and certainly will NOT do that-ever. My feeling is that noone will buy it knowing that I own the driveway. Any thoughts?

We would buy it at about 1/2 of what he is asking, because we will have tear down costs, as well as-frankly-trash removal.

Thanks for listening-there are so many issues with this property it is ridiculous. (he built a fence without a permit that is over our line…..his mooring as he is selling it cannot be used, or whatever is moored comes over the line……let alone it is just creapy and disgusting.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, write a letter to the real estate agent. A new owner may get really ****y if they find out they don't own what they thought they bought and you have to inform or enforce it. When no one buys the place, make your low ball offer, lol.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I'd stake out your property and run string on the side that touches his property making it clear to any prospective buyers where the property lines are.. I'd also tear out any fence that was on my property.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

That would mean string right across his driveway. I have thought about using one of those neon orange marker sprays and making a line across the driveway so folks will the message. I have a feeling they just think my markers mark the sides of his driveway. 

Bonus-Open house on Sunday-fun times ahead! lol


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> That would mean string right across his driveway. I have thought about using one of those neon orange marker sprays and making a line across the driveway so folks will the message. I have a feeling they just think my markers mark the sides of his driveway.
> 
> Bonus-Open house on Sunday-fun times ahead! lol


I guess I am having trouble picturing what you mean. Can you draw it out? How would it cross his driveway? LOL see, I am missing something!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Or you could do what my husband did when we bought a rental property...neighbor's had a driveway right across the front of it. He got a surveyor out, had the stakes put in (which you already have done) then Daddy-O took his bulldozer and covered up the driveway and planted grass, lol. We gave them a chance to buy an easement, they said no.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

How would his property clear a title search?

I'd sure get this straightened out now instead of letting the situation muddy your relations with new neighbors.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I would talk to your county assessor and see what is recorded as your property line and as his. Ask them possibly about re-surveying your home or ask how to proceed if someone is disputing where the property line is. I know in AZ if you use a driveway or something on someone else's property for several years you have a partial claim to it, but you have to go through court.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Sorry, I just saw you had re-surveyed. I would still check with the assessor's office if you haven't already. Also, if you had title insurance I think they would cover something like this.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I have asked DH about sending notice (before it went up for sale) to say that as of XX-XX date we will be converting it to a handicap parking space (for DH). Again-nothing. 

I hate to go behind his back….but will talk to him about it again when he is here this weekend to push the point. It needs to be straight before sale. Period.

I agree that I do NOT think anyone will get clear title.

DH is of the opinion that they have used it all these years, they have a claim. I am not that easy. I am the type who will ask for forgiveness, not permission. (which is why I park there). He said he may offer to sell them an easement-for about $50K…but I see him doing nothing and am getting frustrated. The MS has changed him. That is for sure.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

FLy-I have talked to our title folks-they find nothing. We own it. Their advise to me was to tell the neighbor to go fly. As far as the assessor-we pay taxes on it. No doubt on that, and in NY-it is a hefty sum.


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## Toucan (Sep 8, 2012)

Do you think the neighbour will definitely sell no matter what?

If so, I wouldn't offer an easement & would make sure the prospective owners know exactly what they're possibly buying into.

Then it's probably most unlikely anyone will buy & he'll have to lower his asking price. And then you'll probably be the most likely to put in an offer to him at a much reduced price.

But then on the other hand, if he just sits on it that's probably not what you want either. It's a tough one that's for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Why not just contact his realtor?
They won't misrepresent the house to any potential buyers when they know the truth - let them have the facts and deal with him.
I'm surprised they haven't already got an official boundary plan of the property on their records


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Actually, Jaydee I was just thinking that.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When it comes to land, if you continue to allow him to use your land, you may find yourselves involved in a costly legal battle. There were two such cases in our village and both times it involved a road. If it's been resurveyed then fence it off and keep the fence a few inches inside your property line. If he tries to stop you, call the law.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I think a mortgage company would have a survey done as part of the loan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

As for whether he will actually sell no matter what-who knows. He is a very strange duck. I would most definitely welcome most anyone over him. THe place always looks awful and is in disrepair. And-he has a fixation on mirrors…they are EVERYWHERE. (on his fences, and many in the house, but to each his own).

Another neighbor is a realtor with the same firm it is listed with, and he is WELL aware of the issue, and has asked me about it, as he had someone interested. They walked-but because of that the listing agent may be aware. I am going to go to the open house Sunday and see if they have a plat. I know he has not had it surveyed in many many years, so yes, I am sure any mortgage company would insist one be done. The issue would be if a cash buyer comes along and does no title search, etc….which would be dumb, but hey…..who knows.
Thanks guys-we will see how this plays out.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

My suggestions:

- Contact the Realtor, do you really want potential new owner to think they can use your land also?
- Contact a real-estate lawyer if necessary to prevent current owner from using your property, if he gets hurt then you or your Insurance Company may be liable for expenses.


.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

It can also become "ownership is 9/10ths of the law". He's been using your land all these years. I'm serious about putting up a fence. It doesn't have to be a big expensive one, but a definite boundary marker.


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## hornedfrog89 (Feb 17, 2014)

We have a earily similar situation at my homestead where my father lives. The land was apart of an original homestead where my great grandparents lived. The way it was willed, our land is only a dirt-road widths from the public road and then is blossoms out to our main property after about 1/2 mile.

The road turns at the very beginning - near the paved road to avoid a culvert. It curves into the neighboring property, however we have had easement (all of maybe 10ft??) for many, many years (50+). The guy who owns it, built two homes on the land within the past 10 years. One of the homes sits up a ways, but is as close to the road as it can get. He did not build a driveway from that house through their property to the public road, so now the tennants use our road to access their house. They use the easement and then probably a two-tenths of a mile of the dirt road. They tear the road up and our property. 

It's been surveyed time after time, and no tresspassing signs placed. It's a headache. 

So, I really understand where you're coming from. You REALLY need to stop this while you can. Call the realtor and tell them. If new people move in, do not let them get into the habit of using your property. 

If the old man doesn't sell, let him know that he cannot use that land for his driveway anymore. As someone above said, get ahold of a good real-estate attorney.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

It really is a no win situation. If he doesn't sell-he will probably rent again. Last year I had 20 somethings looking in my kitchen window at 5 am, and repeated parties til all hours, street racing…... I almost have the Sheriff on speed dial. :-(

Only way to win is if he will sell for about 50% of what he wants…..then we will split the property between us and another neighbor. We do not want the lakefront, since that would mean more taxes,(which are already nearly $20K) but the other neighbor would love it. We want the land so that we can have a garage…..and maybe even a proper driveway!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Every house over here that we've looked at to consider buying had a boundary map in with the details that the realtor carried. When we were going to sell this place and move to Georgia our Realtor got a boundary map of our property from the local planning offices
Maybe it differs from state to state
It obviously differs from one country to another I know but in the UK if you allow someone to do something on your land by not preventing them from doing it it eventually establishes a right which is why if you allow someone access or usage you should always have a legal agreement drawn up


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I agree with what other posters have said re putting up fencing on the boundary. This should be done asap and I'd make use of the new area that you have fenced off by storing something on it, putting in flower boxes, etc. I preface this by saying I'm not a legal person and certainly know nothing about US law but I can't help but think allowing him to continue to use your property is tantamount to gifting him that bit of land (and I suspect the courts may see it the same way and there may well be precedents on record that support this premise resulting in your losing the area possibly without any compensation).


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't get why you dance to your neighbor's tune. Put up the ****ed fence and be done with it. If he knocks it down, call the law regarding malicious damage.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Saddlebag-What I would do myself if buffered by DH. He is extremely stressed right now by work, and comes here to relax. He wants no controversy here, and is somewhat in denial. Because of his MS and stress exacerbating his disease, I somewhat tread on eggshells. If it were solely my decision, the fence would have been up years ago.

Plus, I have been told that "I cannot deny him access", and to just "put up a fence" would do so. I could do so with notice, however, so that he can choose to move his water service and power pole……or not.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

UPDATE-So…FINALLY got the Dh to write the letter to the agent. VEry matter of fact, but pointing out 4 major issues. Three that will need to be corrected by the new owner upon possession, and the fact that we will be "straightening out" our fence at the lakes edge to be on our line. He also pointed out that several things were misrepresented (in his opinion) on the disclosure statement that every seller has to fill out, and can be held liable for the accuracy of.
Agents response-"I will forward to the homeowners."

So, we immediately wrote a letter, attached the email to the agent, and sent it certified to our neighbor, as well as (since DH is trying to be a nice guy-for reasons unknown) sent an email to the neighbor with the letter and the email to the agent attached. Basically let them know it was coming…..which personally, I think is a mistake-but….he has been in real-estate as a developer for some 30 years, so who am I to question.

Naturally, no response from the neighbor, and by todays activities of moving docks and hoist back where they were last year (where he was SPECIFICALLY told by the town zoning officer they could not be)…he is basically giving all of us the finger.

My question is-is there a law that holds the AGENT responsible to disclose things like property line disputes to buyers? I am hoping that the title company will let the buyers know….but I would think, now that the agent is aware IN WRITING, she has some duty to disclose. I know the homeowner can be held liable for "defects" not disclosed, just not sure where we stand with this kind of issue.

They do have a contract…..so we will see how this goes. I would bet it will fall through when this all comes out in title search. My vote will be to start parking my SUV at the end of the driveway….but we will see what the DH says, as well as a lawyer friend who will be here for the holiday.

UGH-


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

> , attached the email to the agent,



How DID you do that?? :smile:


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I don't know about the law, but they are supposed to be honest about the information they know. If the agent misrepresents anything knowingly it can void the agreement.
The title company should catch it when they do the title search.
I really don't envy your situation.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

squirrelfood said:


> How DID you do that?? :smile:


Umm-printed it out and stapled it to the letter??


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

So…the plot thickens…..DH just got (on a sunday) an email from someone-that just says for us to forward our survey and title info (certified with date)…..

I happen to know this is the neighbors attorney. It does not say that, just makes demands. Neighbor has not had a survey in 30 years. Literally. 

DH questioned WHO this was, and stated that we were not accustomed to answering email demands, and that his client can get his own survey, since HE is the one with a property for sale.He also stated that this is NOT a new issue.

In other words-go fly.

I think the attorney thinks we just fell off the truck yesterday.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

This is ridiculous, your hubby has an illness and doesn't need this nonsense. Park your car there for sure.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Easements can be very tricky. Personally, I would consult a lawyer with a lot of expertise in this area so you can know "what is what" specific to this instance. If he sells it is possible the "chain" to adverse possession, if there is any, would be broken (a good thing for you). But, if he or new owners claim an easement by necessity, or prescriptive...it can get very muddy. It goes on and on.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well-it will be interesting for sure. This email from the lawyer has….as we say in our family…."poked the papa bear"….and I am afraid it will be "game on" for DH now. Not typically good news for the opposing side. I have a feeling, like I said, this attorney thinks we are small town folks….when in fact DH has probably bought and sold more parcels than this small time attorney will ever see, so, this is not our first rodeo for sure. He certainly does NOT need this, and I am sure he will consult his BF who is an attorney in the same state and talk to him just to make sure the bases are covered.

As far as I am concerned, the stakes are clearly visible. The burden of proof as far as an easement-if they think there is one-is on them. My title company says none exists.


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## montes4338 (Jan 22, 2014)

I am a land surveyor in TX, and I am curious how this is turning out for you. I of course do not know the law in NY (where I believe this to be happening), however, if it is similar to TX law, You should first be concerned with the title companies only doing their research back for 35 years. I do not know why they feel this is long enough, but it is a practice here. On the adverse possession claim, again in Tx, the person must be openly using the land in question for over (generally) 10 years with no attempts made to stop the use. Then a judge might grant the adverse possession claim to the person who has been using the land. I do not understand the difficulty with you placing a small wire fence, or even a ceble fence along the boundary line, inset a foot or so, as your surveyor marked it. Yes, he may have utilities inside this, but this is his problem if the utilities do not fall in a utility easement. (this being one of the potential items the title company may not have found if their research did not go far enough back). Placing the fence is your way of closing off the neighbors use of the land, and thus closing his possible claim of adverse possession. Some lending institutions will still lend money on properties without surveys, so alerting the realtor to the problems is a good idea. I am interested in seeing how this ends up, and hoping it works out well for you.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well-we have not heard a word since we shared our survey with the neighbors attorney. Their surveyors have come and gone and placed no new property line markers, which to me means they agree with our surveyor. I am hoping to hear from the attorney since the agreement was that they would share their survey with us, just as we did with them. It has now been a week, soI will give it a bit of time. I am trying not to bug my DH about this too much as he is already very stressed at work and it exacerbates his illness, but I did ask him how we will proceed should they ignore our respectful requests, as they have for the last 30 years. All he said was that then we will have to send a legal letter to the new owner. Not really how I would choose to start with any new neighbor, but the old one may leave us no choice. I can only hope they sue him. 

This past weekend apparently while he was moving stuff out he put a sec ion of dock on our part of his lakefront…..while we were not home. I have not moved it yet, but am tempted to. It is on his side of the fence, but on our property. It gets a little confusing here since the town makes folks put fences 2' inside the line. We are lucky in that our fence on that side is grandfathered in, and only the very end of it goes off the line-why I have no idea….my dad did that.

It is really sort of comical-they have been moving out a bit at a time-even taking things that are stated to be in the sale according to the ad…..:shock: but they have yet to put a "sale pending" sign on it. I am guessing they don't know we already know. :wink: THere is also the neighbor on the other side who has issues….since a fence was placed on his land also. Lots to straighten out with new owners who are buying a vacation home to relax. Or so they think.:lol:


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Licensed real estate agents do have a duty of care - they must inform their clients of risks, damages, disputes that they are aware of. In Ontario anyway.

Call the land registry office and see what you can do about filing a caution on the property. We can do that here, but apparently the cautions are only good for x number of days now (90?). See what the rules are where you are. Anyone that does a title search will see the caution.

As you may recall, I am going through the same thing here and it's taking f...o...r...e...v...e...r. Trying to find another lawyer now as the last one was a bust.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I have never heard of that here in the states, but the agent does have an obligation of disclosure, and as such, should she choose NOT to notify the potential buyer of the issues she can be held liable as well as the owner. Both have misrepresented the property lines and have been told so in writing by us, which we will be happy to share with the buyer should the need arise. According to the guy I used for my title search it WILL come out when they do one, and folks would be nuts to buy this without resolution. I hate this stuff-I just want to live here and be happy without all of this carp.


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## aspin231 (Mar 20, 2010)

Subbing. Best of luck!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well-the "SOLD" sign went up yesterday, so I got on the phone, since I figured it had gone to the settlement table. I called the realtor, left a message, called her office, and was told by the person there that they cannot disclose without permission, to which I said-"OK-so I will go to the county tomorrow when it becomes public, since it is a matter of public record AND you cannot disperse funds until it is recorded."

I also did pick up a copy of their survey from their lawyers office which did totally agree with ours.

Anyway-realtor called me back. It has NOT yet finalized. I asked her about the title search-she just said that the lawyers were dealing with it.

Neighbor has continued to move out…..I think I will park in the driveway for a bit each day, altho DH is not in favor of that at all. I, however, HATE to be ignored.:wink:

So-the saga continues. According to the realtor, settlement is in a couple of weeks. Noone has checked on the house and we had 6 inches of rain day before yesterday….so who knows-there may well be water in the house. It is on a hill, and the gully next to it has a history of overflowing. One down the street did I know, and a house that was finally going to settlement after a year on the market (for $1M)was all but wiped out. Sad.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Good luck. Maybe the new buyers will be good people and respect the property lines. Were you able to put a caution on the title? If not yet, I'd get over there and do that today.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I don't think there is any such thing as a "caution on the title" here in the states. But, title search is required if they are financing anything, and these issues will show up. If they are not financing, it IS possible they would not do a search but highly unlikely. (they would have to be fools) My title search guy has advised me that there is no way it won't come to light IF they do a title search.One thing all of the neighbors agree upon-no matter what we get it HAS to be better than what we have.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well-here is an update. Met the new neighbors. DH agrees that we will be no better off with this one than the last. Idiots. Older, probably 60, and clueless, or at least he acts like it. When we told him he does not own the bottom of his driveway and we would be sending him a registered letter requiring he get an easement to use it, he said he had no clue! So, the seller, real-estate agent nor the lawyer made him aware, neither did a title search. Supposedly. Not sure I trust this guy at all. DH is composing the letter, and we are in the process of deciding how much $$ to charge for the easement. Honestly-I would one for it to be enough that he goes back to the seller and sues. So, I am thinking about 10% of purchase price. Remember-he has a choice-he can pay more than that and move the utility pole and his water-or he can park on the street and walk.

And-he says his wife will be living there year round:shock: That should be really interesting….it is not insulated and the winds off the lake in January will freeze the pipes in a heartbeat. Let alone the fact that you have to go outside and walk around the house to go upstairs……lol.

So-the saga continues, and my prediction is that eventually DH will come around and put up that section of fence we should have installed in June.:wink:
He is one guy you do not want to be on the wrong side of, and I have a feeling that is FINALLY where this is going.


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## Surprise 623 (Jun 17, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> So…the plot thickens…..DH just got (on a sunday) an email from someone-that just says for us to forward our survey and title info (certified with date)…..
> 
> I happen to know this is the neighbors attorney. It does not say that, just makes demands. Neighbor has not had a survey in 30 years. Literally.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Surprise 623 (Jun 17, 2010)

You should look into "adverse possession" laws in your state. If they have used a certain piece of property without contest for a certain number of years they may have rights to it..regardless of original property lines. Not saying it applies in your case but just learned about this in legal studies class
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

I thought you didn't want to give them any easement. If you don't want to, then don't. It's their issue, not yours. I've made some progress on my end. I have found that building inspectors can be your friend (they have neat responsibilities), and also here we can draw up a lease for 21 years less a day without going to the planning board. I'll update my thread before the winter probably.

Rather than an easement, why not do up a lease for x years (maybe 5 or 10) and charge them for use of your land. Put a clause in that the lease may or may not be renewed, up to both parties and if its not renewed, then they have to skedaddle.

Another option, if the real estate agent didn't tell them, then they can sue the agent. At least here they could. So tell them to move the driveway, move the service pole, whatever it takes and sue the agent for the costs. Or they can sell the place to you and the other neighbour at a loss and sue the agent for their loss. Now that someone else has become involved in this (lawyers and agents), more people are on the hook.

As far as the driveway being on your land, how did that get done? Seems to me that the error goes back to the municipality/county/district that allowed the driveway to go in there.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

You should consult a lawyer. If someone uses a piece of your property for 10 years and you allow it they can legally claim it. Imminent domain.
I had these issues at home and on a commercial property. Once it sells the 10 years starts over again but he may legally own it and get it changed prior to selling although I doubt if he has researched it.
I also owned 2 lake homes and all off the property lines were messed up so I am sure that is common in small towns and on lakes.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

franknbeans said:


> Well-we have not heard a word since we shared our survey with the neighbors attorney. Their surveyors have come and gone and placed no new property line markers, which to me means they agree with our surveyor. I am hoping to hear from the attorney since the agreement was that they would share their survey with us, just as we did with them. It has now been a week, soI will give it a bit of time. I am trying not to bug my DH about this too much as he is already very stressed at work and it exacerbates his illness, but I did ask him how we will proceed should they ignore our respectful requests, as they have for the last 30 years. All he said was that then we will have to send a legal letter to the new owner. Not really how I would choose to start with any new neighbor, but the old one may leave us no choice. I can only hope they sue him.
> 
> This past weekend apparently while he was moving stuff out he put a sec ion of dock on our part of his lakefront…..while we were not home. I have not moved it yet, but am tempted to. It is on his side of the fence, but on our property. It gets a little confusing here since the town makes folks put fences 2' inside the line. We are lucky in that our fence on that side is grandfathered in, and only the very end of it goes off the line-why I have no idea….my dad did that.
> 
> It is really sort of comical-they have been moving out a bit at a time-even taking things that are stated to be in the sale according to the ad…..:shock: but they have yet to put a "sale pending" sign on it. I am guessing they don't know we already know. :wink: THere is also the neighbor on the other side who has issues….since a fence was placed on his land also. Lots to straighten out with new owners who are buying a vacation home to relax. Or so they think.:lol:


 A fence is an assumed property line and it may very well be his property now. Not sure why you are not getting a lawyer.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

franknbeans said:


> Well-here is an update. Met the new neighbors. DH agrees that we will be no better off with this one than the last. Idiots. Older, probably 60, and clueless, or at least he acts like it. When we told him he does not own the bottom of his driveway and we would be sending him a registered letter requiring he get an easement to use it, he said he had no clue! So, the seller, real-estate agent nor the lawyer made him aware, neither did a title search. Supposedly. Not sure I trust this guy at all. DH is composing the letter, and we are in the process of deciding how much $$ to charge for the easement. Honestly-I would one for it to be enough that he goes back to the seller and sues. So, I am thinking about 10% of purchase price. Remember-he has a choice-he can pay more than that and move the utility pole and his water-or he can park on the street and walk.
> 
> And-he says his wife will be living there year round:shock: That should be really interesting….it is not insulated and the winds off the lake in January will freeze the pipes in a heartbeat. Let alone the fact that you have to go outside and walk around the house to go upstairs……lol.
> 
> ...


I would not give an easement, they cannot be reversed. EVER unless they agree to it. You might sell them an easement.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

This IS a new owner. That is why it has to be done now. Old owner was constantly reminded it was ours, and I parked there and blocked him from time to time, when he got too comfortable.

I am not crazy about the easement idea, but, DH is a real estate developer and knows much more than I about these things. I would like it to be for THIS owner only, and it will be restricted to access only and stipulated that they may never pave it. We will get a lawyer if we feel we need one. DH does this kind of stuff all the time, and the new neighbor will be responsible for legal fees to do the paperwork to our satisfaction. Personally, I would rather lease it year to year. Then if they start to rent-I can choose not to lease it. DH says I cannot do that…..we may come to blows over this one.

Yes, I am a firm believer that whoever drew these lakefront property lines was on some type of hallucinogens.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Real estate developers should know more than most and be using a lawyer. He also should have taken care of this years ago.
Good luck with this one.


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## Surprise 623 (Jun 17, 2010)

It doesn't matter if it's a new owner ... If enough time has passed and new owner was told he had use of a certain area when hè bought it.. He may well have rights


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## Surprise 623 (Jun 17, 2010)

Not saying it's fair just look into adverse possession laws


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The seller has likely told the new owners anything he thought they wanted to hear to sell the property. When I bo't mine, between the lawyer and realty company there wasn't a stone left unturned. What they learned was nothing at all like what the seller had told me.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Being that the seller is scum, and known as a slumlord, I am quite sure he said whatever is necessary to sell this place. Burden of proof is on the new owner. Period. Until they can prove to us they have rights-they will not. We will meet with them, tell them the expectations, and if they do not agree-the driveway will be blocked. Simple as that. I will park on my own land, just as I have off and on (yes, even when old owner was there) for 30 years. They don't like it-sue me.

And we have not even gotten to the waterfront issue……we will be moving the bottom portion of our fence 2 feet so that it will be on our line. Again-correcting an issue that has been for 30 yrs. 

We are sending the new folks copies of the letters we sent long before settlement to the previous owners, their lawyer and agent making them all aware of the issues. Neighbor on the other side did the same thing, as a fence is 2 feet over onto their property. We all made everyone we could aware that the property disclosure statement as written and signed by the previous owner was not correct. He is the one who will be on the line, I think (and hope). I would also think the agent would share responsibility for not disclosing.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, I would definitely have a lawyer review any documents that you prepare b/c they _can_ sue you - and any document will then become game for their suit as well as your defense. One can sue anyone for anything in the US. However, making a statement such as "correcting an issue that has been for 30 yrs" can easily _not_ work in your favor. If there is no other means to access the property, the law itself offers them a legal basis to sue, known as easement by necessity. Even if they can take action to create another "path" to their property, it will not prevent them from filing a complaint, and regardless of the outcome - you will still have to waste your time and money in civil court.

adding...IMHO, and with what you have said so far, you and your neighbor could avoid all kinds of unpleasantness by preparing a document that clearly states that you are giving them _permission _to utilize the easement, and have everyone sign it and file it with both your and their county property records. JMO.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Missy-THEY are paying a lawyer to prepare any easement documents, and will pay us for the right to do so. I refuse to pay a penny for this. We will be meeting with them re:the terms of the easement, ie-it can never be paved……If it were purely up to me it would be some sort of land lease year to year, as I want some control. DH says I cannot do that…..so, rather than fight with him, we will do it his way.

As far as "easement by necessity"? Not really relevant here. They have options. They can pay the utility company the approximately $10K to move a utility pole and pay to have their water meter (which is currently seasonal) moved off of the 15' they own right next to the piece we own, and use that as the driveway apron rather than getting the easement. The other option is, of course to park on the street and walk the 50-75 ft up to their house, which will likely be pretty unpleasant come January.

I am beyond angry over this and do not, for one minute really believe this guy had no clue. They HAD a survey done-he even said so, and I have a copy of it. It agrees totally with ours, so not sure what he thought was going to happen. I also know there was a title search done, since he also told us that, and that there was a last minute issue, supposedly re: the dead wife of the previous owner still being on the deed. If indeed he is clueless and this was not disclosed-he has a great lawsuit against the previous owners and the agent.

We will see. The saga continues.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, like I said earlier, the fact that it was sold is in your favor b/c it could break any "adverse possession", or the like, "chain". Many such undocumented claims to easements cannot be conveyed to a new owner. It actually sounds like they are trying be reasonable if they are having legal papers drawn up - I assume, they are doing so w the caveat that the language meets your expectations?


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Sorry you are going through this! When I bought my "ranch", that's what I call it, I did not look at anything that did not have a county road to it. Several neighbors have an easement through my property to get to theirs. One approached me, saying that I needed to do something, I said I'd see about it, next time he approached me I just got cold and said That ain't gonna happen. Haven't been bothered since, and all the other people who use my easement have no complaints.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> Missy-THEY are paying a lawyer to prepare any easement documents, and will pay us for the right to do so. I refuse to pay a penny for this. We will be meeting with them re:the terms of the easement, ie-it can never be paved……If it were purely up to me it would be some sort of land lease year to year, as I want some control. DH says I cannot do that…..so, rather than fight with him, we will do it his way.


I don't know why you can't do a lease. We can up here. I would ask someone else aside from DH. Not that he is necessarily wrong, but it's dang near impossible for one developer to know all the rules.

If you do end up with this "easement" thing (obviously a different use of the term than what we have here), be sure that money changes hands. Even if it's just $100 (but I would make it more than that) above the costs.



> As far as "easement by necessity"? Not really relevant here. They have options. They can pay the utility company the approximately $10K to move a utility pole and pay to have their water meter (which is currently seasonal) moved off of the 15' they own right next to the piece we own, and use that as the driveway apron rather than getting the easement. The other option is, of course to park on the street and walk the 50-75 ft up to their house, which will likely be pretty unpleasant come January.


Too bad, so sad for them. I wouldn't care.



> I am beyond angry over this and do not, for one minute really believe this guy had no clue. They HAD a survey done-he even said so, and I have a copy of it. It agrees totally with ours, so not sure what he thought was going to happen. I also know there was a title search done, since he also told us that, and that there was a last minute issue, supposedly re: the dead wife of the previous owner still being on the deed. If indeed he is clueless and this was not disclosed-he has a great lawsuit against the previous owners and the agent.


Yup, I agree re suing the agent. Not so sure about the previous owner. I think you missed my previous post that actually covered this stuff.

Is the survey registered with the municipality/county/district? Here we can do all the surveys we want, but if they aren't registered no one else will know about it. Hence the caution thing that is available in Ontario, albeit as useless as it is (expires too soon and, get this: can't be renewed!).


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Missy-yes. The language will have to meet our expectations, or we can have it done and they can pay our lawyer. No pay-no access. Plain and simple. When we initially contacted the previous owner and his lawyer, the lawyer was about the most arrogant SOB I (and DH who deals with lots of these guys) had EVER met. However, we played nice and shared our survey with them, and that IS "customary", and they then shared theirs when it was completed. Here recording is not really a necessity. Altho, there is no real reason not to, and I probably should. As to whether they did-I have no idea. It is such a small piece-honestly-it is literally the driveway apron. My Expedition JUST fits without hanging out into the road. Perhaps they think since it is in the highway right of way they have some legal right to it? I have no clue, but can tell you that is not the case. If it were, they would have access to my house, as the road right away runs through my kitchen.:shock:
(you have to see it to understand.:wink

I am not sure we can do a lease, but would like to ask a lawyer. It would appear to me from my research that leases are primarily for agricultural purposes. For example, my BO leases land to farmers for crops.

The reason I think they could sue both the previous owner and the agent is that the written disclosure statement, in the owners handwriting and signed by him was FALSE. That was what we notified them about, and it was not corrected. I also think the agent acted for both buyer and seller, which happens sometimes here, since these new folks do not live locally and probably did not have their own agent-so it seemed easier. Bad move.

I really do have to go with what DH says at this point….I try not to go against the grain unless it is something critical, since it stresses him unnecessarily. He originally thought I was making a big deal out of this…….but now says he really doesn't see it ending well. Not to worry tho-we have plenty of lawyers should we need them, and I will guarantee they won't be from this small town. When DH goes to court, he has never lost, to my knowledge. He does his homework. All the neighbor has to do is mention us to the town and they will tell him. We filed suit against them years ago.:wink:


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I've lost something here. Who's forcing you to give them easement? Look at it this way. Supposing someone gets hurt on that piece of land. Does this put you in a position of being sued because you own it? Since there is joint use, does that change your insurance policy regarding liability. To me, when you grant an easement you are accepting that responsibility.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

it is in the property deed here. I have to give up x amt of feet for a future road and pge, at the front of the property, and on the west side x amt of feet for access to the land behind me. 
I am not liable for a thing on the access areas. ,even though I own the land, it is county deed that gives the access


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Normally, easements such as this ARE attached to the deed. One was just never done here, which boggles my mind as my dad was a stickler for detail and we bought from my mom and dad. The new easement WILL be attached to the deed.

Saddlebag-noone is forcing us to do anything. However, since the ownership has changed, it is time to clean up details that have been neglected for the last 30 (and beyond) years. It we allow them to just "use it", they can, at some point, claim ownership, which we do not want, as we pay taxes on it. And-our taxes are some of the highest in the country. For this little piece of lane we own-not even 1/4 acres, taxes are apprx. $15K/year. That is NYS, and we are in a tiered system-waterfront, water view, then all the rest. We are waterfront (and have another house down the street that is water view). Plus, this lake and Lake Tahoe swap places on a regular basis for the most expensive. So, this little easement won't come easy for these folks.


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