# I vow not to



## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

Wow, let's add our own pet peeves.

11. People who ride a different discipline from you who climb all over you because you don't ride or train like they do . . . when your horse doesn't do what theirs does anyway.

12. People who pile on harsher bits, shorter tie-downs, more cranked tight girths, or any kind of hardware when their horses misbehave rather than figuring out WHY those horses are misbehaving.

13. People who don't feed their horses or get their feet or teeth taken care of.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

So, you won't mention them again? h m m . . . . That's a very hard vow to keep. The nature of Pet Peeves is that they just keep coming back. And this is quite an extensive Smorgasbord of them.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

14. Shaving horses so they look _purdy_, especially hair that has important sensory or protective functionality (whiskers, hair in ears)

14a. Fanatic "non-quitters," even though their efforts are to the detriment of the horse. 

I find it difficult to disagree with anything mentioned so far.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> So, you won't mention them again? h m m . . . . That's a very hard vow to keep. The nature of Pet Peeves is that they just keep coming back. And this is quite an extensive Smorgasbord of them.


Well, y'all can hold me to it if you catch me breaking my promise. :grin:

Seriously, people are going to do what they want to do, and me jumping up and down like rumplestiltskin isn't going change anybody's mind except about me. I always imagine that my point of view is so researched and rational that once someone has the error of their preferences shown to them, they will gratefully thank me. Hasn't happened yet for some reason.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

15. respond to posters that already have prepared a defence against a non-existent mob

16. continue to not respond to threads where it's obvious that OP doesn't give a hoot about any advice given and continues the same even while complaining that nothing is working (I read these because I learn from them at least). 

17. respond to posters where its painstakingly obvious that competition is more important than horse welfare 

Hm. I like this thread. Let's get the ugly out!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Avna said:


> Well, y'all can hold me to it if you catch me breaking my promise. :grin:
> 
> Seriously, people are going to do what they want to do, and me jumping up and down like rumplestiltskin isn't going change anybody's mind except about me.


Well, no - not quite. People are going to do what they want to do, but usually they live in a bubble of like-minded people where they have picked up their bad habits. Exposing them to alternative points of view might disabuse them from the notion that what they do is "best practices." Sure, if you rant at someone one-on-one, it's just you. But if you voice your displeasure in a forum, like-minded people will usually hit you with "Likes" and/or add their own two cents in a similar vein.


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## redbadger (Nov 20, 2017)

People who take on/purchase/adopt an animal (any animal really, but we are discussing horses here) that is beyond their capabilities. It hurts everyone in the long run, particularly if the owner doesn't recognize they're in over their heads.


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## Sherian (Aug 28, 2012)

1) owners who can't be bothered to even attempt to change their practices even though they are slowly killing their horse - ie continuing to free feed in the winter and throw out on lush pasture horses with laminitis because meal feeding is too much work

2) owners who blindly follow some guru or internet trend without checking the references/validity to their horse/ or applying common sense


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

People who post threads without doing any searches. Do you know how many articles, videos, and threads there are out there on hard to catch horses or horses who don't respond to the leg?


"Natural is the only way". Can't have healthy shod feed. Blankets are harmful. Stalling (reasonable amounts) is cruel. Natural remedies vs proven medicine. Still mad about the body worker who told me to feed a teaspoon of a half a dozen different herbs to fix his lameness.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

I keep coming back to this, and finally have enough of a list that I feel is worthy of being posted!

1. "Rescues" that bury themselves in over their heads, to the point where they cannot provide basic care (grooming, for instance) or have the time to put training on them to increase their chances of being adopted. I'm particularly peeved at this because my Minnie sat at the rescue for nearly two years, and after six months of being with me in inconsistent work, she is going undersaddle. Minnie did not leave her pasture once while at the rescue, nor have any amount of real halter training. There is no reason for a young horse to sit at a rescue, and not be actively worked with in order to get them adopted, especially when a majority of the horses are in the weight-gain stages rather than training stages. Also, seeing pictures of horses at that rescue still loosing clumps of their winter coat in early summer, and knowing that I spent hours on untangling Minnie's massive knot of a mane, I'm peeved that her rescue didn't make time or utilize the masses of horse people that want to volunteer in order to make these horses more comfortable and appealing to potential adopters! /rant

2. People that ride their senior horses into the ground, even after years and years of happily carrying them around the show ring and/or on the trails. These horses that gave you so much joy should be rewarded with a comfortable retirement or reduced workload, rather than being expected to do the same amount when their joints/bodies just aren't the same as what they were.

3. People that make excuses as to why their horses can't do xyz. Just because you think your horse is head-shy because some mean man abused her, doesn't mean that horse isn't able to work past it and be able to be bridled. There is no reason why a horse, pending real soundness issues, can't be trained to do xyz, even if it takes more time than normal.

4. People that think they know everything about anything. I don't care if you have ridden and been around horses for your entire life, their is always something more to learn.

5. People that allow their horses and other pets to suffer, rather than giving them a comfortable end. I've been around this a little bit too much in the past two months, and it is particularly annoying to me. Horses and pets rely on us to take care of them, even in the end, when that may mean putting them to rest. It is our responsibility as pet owners, and if you can't handle that, think twice about owning a pet.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

People who abuse horses

Other than that - well I wake up every Saturday morning and wonder where the week went because suddenly time seems to be flying by way faster than it ever used too. 
I seem to be struggling more and more to fit everything in to a day and find the time to think about all the things that matter to me and mine
Life is way too short to spend time worrying about what other people are doing, especially if it makes you angry or irritable or sad.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> Well, no - not quite. People are going to do what they want to do, but usually they live in a bubble of like-minded people where they have picked up their bad habits. Exposing them to alternative points of view might disabuse them from the notion that what they do is "best practices." Sure, if you rant at someone one-on-one, it's just you. But if you voice your displeasure in a forum, like-minded people will usually hit you with "Likes" and/or add their own two cents in a similar vein.


Do you have examples of this happening? I mostly find people just disappear when nobody likes their ideas. If they don't double down, that is.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> People who abuse horses
> 
> Other than that - well I wake up every Saturday morning and wonder where the week went because suddenly time seems to be flying by way faster than it ever used too.
> I seem to be struggling more and more to fit everything in to a day and find the time to think about all the things that matter to me and mine
> Life is way too short to spend time worrying about what other people are doing, especially if it makes you angry or irritable or sad.


So very, very true.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Avna said:


> Do you have examples of this happening? I mostly find people just disappear when nobody likes their ideas. If they don't double down, that is.


Well, it's about putting that bug in their ear. There is a reason why commercials are repeated relentlessly. "Hey, there are actually plenty of people who are appalled by high-stepping horses with 40 pounds of metal platforms on their feet - I wonder why?" The difference between this and a commercial is that people here are able to bring their point across with reasoning, not just with slogans. 

You're gonna try to reach those who weren't yet exposed yet to sound reasoning, those who haven't heard the arguments before. You won't reach those who come here expecting a "There, there, it's not your fault! Poor you, having to deal with such a difficult horse!"

It's also difficult to abandon long-held beliefs and admit to it in a public forum. Nobody likes to find out they've been wrong for a long time - it doesn't feel good. Maybe some of them sneakily do better in the privacy of their own lives.

In the end, it's a discussion forum, not an echo chamber. If this is only a forum where we tell each other how awesome we are with our horses...well, that's exceedingly boring.

And, let's not forget the uncountable number of lurkers who may be doing stupid things, but thanks to being lurkers never have no admit to it. They still need to see sound reasoning and best practices - you'll never hear about having educated a lurker, but there's always a good chance. I'm not a lurker, but I sometimes read a thread without participating and simply thinking, "Well, there's a point well made - I should keep that in mind!"


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I despise that so many horse people believe that they NEED what people are selling. There is no “consider the source”, or “be careful who you ask”. If one asks a saddle fitter if their saddle fits, or a saddle seller if they need a new saddle, what do they THINK they are going to say?? It is the same with chiropractors(where there is no way to prove any proposed adjustment).


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Some of these I don't just like, I want to say AMEN.


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

Avna said:


> This is just about the internet but it is horse related.
> 
> I have my pet peeves, anyone who has read very many of my posts knows that. I'm usually not stupid enough to talk about them in real life to horse people but now I'm upping my game and am going to try my hardest not to kvetch virtually either.
> 
> ...


Can I just say... _please don't vow to not offer your "ridiculous unwanted opinions" on those subjects anymore!!!!!_ People need to hear the truth on all these things, repetitively, from anyone who can take the time to tell them it's wrong. Even the people who don't listen still need to be told. Especially on an online forum like this where in the future other people who don't know better will see your responses while lurking and _learn_ how to better take care of their horses.

Impressive list though.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Remind me what is the purpose of listing one's pet peeves?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Ah ha ha ha! Am laughing with you Avna, not at you 



> Seriously, people are going to do what they want to do, and me jumping up and down like rumplestiltskin isn't going change anybody's mind except about me. I always imagine that my point of view is so researched and rational that once someone has the error of their preferences shown to them, they will gratefully thank me. Hasn't happened yet for some reason.


Seriously though, sorry then, sincerely on my part, if I haven't ever thanked you for sharing your opinion, because I sure value it! Yeah, I sometimes find it really hard not to 'go Rumplestiltskin' (haha!) about some things that are said/responded, and I agree it's best to avoid that, but that's quite different to just giving your opinion, suggesting stuff, and I for one hope you don't quit doing that!

Alas, while there are some subjects that I feel I have researched thoroughly & feel very sure of, I'm not as 'imaginative' there on many subjects as you sound ;-) but whether you feel you're absolutely right & rational etc or not, I don't think that is what necessarily 'wins the day'. I think that many people may or may not heed or appreciate other's answers at the time, or ever, but some will seriously consider, and even if they don't agree or understand at the time, the information is out there to weigh up. And it may well help someone, someone's horse, even if not the intended... victim


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> Remind me what is the purpose of listing one's pet peeves?


I think Avna's point was to say she will quit getting upset about them, getting angry & righteous about her opinions not being listened to(not that I can actually recall any abject righteousness from that corner) - hopefully that means that others who have listed their gripes mean the same! 

Hear hear to JoBlue, that I hope she doesn't mean she will no longer make any input, because I meant entirely honestly what I said above. Avna is one here among many I respect & value their opinions, and I hope you don't 'shut up shop' Avna!

And hear hear to mm - so well put. A 'bug in the ear' counts for a lot I reckon!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> Remind me what is the purpose of listing one's pet peeves?


Not sure about the "purpose". It's popular though! 

I am a person who makes lists of everything. I can hardly think about anything without making a list to review. Once I have that list, I can often just let the whole thing go. If I need to revisit it I can go find my list -- sort of like an external brain file. Since I find myself riled up by the same things on the internet over and over, I thought I could find some peace by listing and letting go. 

We'll see whether that happens ....


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I also agree with the whole not having your horse turned out thing, it is one of my pet peeves. I have always preferred my horse out 24/7. Horses that are constantly stalled always have looked bored, anxious, or you can just tell they hate it. :lol: From what I've seen...I believe horses need to have room to roam, be in the fresh air, & well, be a horse. Because who wants to be in a box all the time?!

I have a lot of pet peeves...well, 1 of them includes people who run their horses into the ground. Or, when people blame the horse all the time, when 99.9% of the time, it's human error. :icon_rolleyes:


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I think that my biggest pet peeve is when people obtain animals without doing any research what so ever as to how to take care of them properly. Many types of abuse stem from ignorance. 

I vow to always remember that just because I may not agree with someones else's likes, dislikes, ideas, practices or what have you. It does not necessarily make them automatically wrong.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Amen! @LoriF


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I can't make any vows because what bugs me today will bug me tomorrow too. LOL


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Kinda reminds me of News Year's Resolutions; I don't know about you, but 99% of mine live about a week, maybe two.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Oh, I am not expecting not to be irritated or worse by the same things. I just want a self-reminder that it does me no good and others little if any good to keep sticking my oar in all the time about the same things. It's like sweeping away the sea.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

My biggest pet peeve is one I won't ever stop saying something about. I get called to do brand inspections on horses all the time, but my pet peeve is when I show up and look at the horse and it is poorly cared for E.g. bad feet, teeth, under weight, poor coat etc. If people don't have the money to do everything for a horse that it requires after initial purchase they shouldn't be allowed to have a horse. It makes me physically sick when I think about the life some of these horses have. I have to think about something else when I catch myself thinking about it because it will make me super sad or super mad or both. It would be better to put them down than to allow them to continue living in the conditions they are in. If I could make one law change it would be that when a brand inspector shows up to look at a horse if it isn't cared for properly that we would have a clear chain of escalation to enforce that the horse would be properly cared for or we could seize the horse e.g. issue a warning, check back in a month, if no change or worse issue a fine, check back in a month, if no change or worse seize the horse. Right now the law is murky at best about what we can do and the amount of documentation we have to do to affect any change is ridiculous.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Avna said:


> 9. *The culture of barrel racing*, in which _flailing_ your arms and legs _like a crazy person_, and _astonishingly cruel bits_, are *perfectly normal.* I'm not against barrel racing per se, just the acceptance of abusive riding.
> 
> I am never going to mention them again. You are not going to find me offering my ridiculous unwanted opinions on any of these subjects on this forum. And that is my vow.


Well that's probably good, because you are incorrect and shouldn't be spreading misinformation like that.
(Yes, your statement struck a nerve with me. Yes, there is poor riding in every discipline including barrel racing, but poor riding is NOT accepted in our sport and is NOT perfectly normal.)


So let me add my own pet peeve:

19. When folks talk about an event/subject in an _incorrect_ or _misinformed_ way, and they themselves do not have experience nor participate in said event/subject, but yet decide to give advice about said event/subject anyway.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

beau159 said:


> Well that's probably good, because you are incorrect and shouldn't be spreading misinformation like that.
> (Yes, your statement struck a nerve with me. Yes, there is poor riding in every discipline including barrel racing, but poor riding is NOT accepted in our sport and is NOT perfectly normal.)
> 
> 
> ...


Your post is the perfect illustration of the reason for my thread! 

Those things I mentioned may or may not be "perfectly normal" but if starfishing wasn't fairly common there wouldn't be a word for it -- or pages of google cites and images. If cruel bits (cruel of course is a subjective term) weren't a practice there wouldn't be so many chain-mouth curbs and other extra-painful-with-extra-leverage bits sold specifically for barrel racing, some designed and promoted by champion riders. 

Any time a a negative opinion is offered, one which may be extremely commonly held outside the group that is invested in it, it will get buried in a ton of denial-bricks. There's also 'nothing wrong' with any of the other things on my list -- to the group invested in them. That's the whole point of my thread -- how useless it is to get exercised over things the adherents do not think is a significant problem, indeed may be a desired feature in many cases.

I didn't list stuff like neglect, or ignorance, not because they don't anger me, but because those don't really have a fan club.

The following arguments are universally applied:

1. _You are misinformed._ Outsiders know nothing, nothing. Your ignorance appalls me.
2. _It's very rare. _Every discipline has its bad actors. They are just a few bad apples that have nothing to do with regular practices. I have never seen anything like what you are talking about.
3. _I take what you said very personally._ I would never do anything to hurt my horse and deeply resent the implication that I do, or would.
4. _Every discipline has an ugly side._ What about Rollkur? What about (fill in the blank about some other totally unrelated thing that is easy to see is wrong). 

Rinse, repeat.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

*Preventative moderator's note*

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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

After reading all this it reminds me that the person who reads and gets upset also holds the power to log off and walk away.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

COWCHICK77 said:


> After reading all this it reminds me that the person who reads and gets upset also holds the power to log off and walk away.


Well, _theoretically_.


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

Avna said:


> Well, _theoretically_.


That's brilliant. Saved : D


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Okay now you have to be quiet about it Avna, shhhhhhh. *Goes off & wins a pleasure class cuz Avna promised not to roll her eyes at me...:riding:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@waresbears. You go, girl!!!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

waresbear said:


> Okay now you have to be quiet about it Avna, shhhhhhh. *Goes off & wins a pleasure class cuz Avna promised not to roll her eyes at me...:riding:


Yep, I promised. Have fun!


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

The only option we get is to like a post or comment. Here's a few I'd like to see.

You gotta be kidding me.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day.
Why hasn't anybody hit you in the head with a shovel yet?


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## lb27312 (Aug 25, 2018)

elkdog said:


> The only option we get is to like a post or comment. Here's a few I'd like to see.
> 
> You gotta be kidding me.
> That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day.
> Why hasn't anybody hit you in the head with a shovel yet?


That isn't in the horse world for me but an everyday kind of thing for me!! Not really but thought it was funny... 

Not much of a pet peeve kind of person... to each his own, what might be good for someone else isn't necessarily good for me but like I said to each his own....


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## BeckyFletcher (Apr 18, 2019)

Serious question. No meaning behind it! What is wrong with Western Pleasure? I don't know enough about it to guess what it might be and am curious. 


　


I'm never going to show so I have no opinion about your opinion.  I ride western with no purpose really. Upkeep of horse and love of horse. Eventually more trail riding. So really just curious! 


　


Right now I'd say a peeve of mine is a 34 year old stalled horse and how his last days are going. He's on his way out. No one knows exactly but I'd be surprised if its more than a year. His mouth is horrible which is causing other issues and nothing can really be done. Not for lack of having vet interaction! But he could be outside. He doesn't need to be in that stall. He gets indoor turn out while stall gets cleaned and owner has an assistant hand graze him a few times a week for a short period of time. 


This was a higher value show horse. He had to have blankets on him at ridiculous times to stay clean, won people some decent money, he did his job for years. Now give him a great ending, geez!


I got permission to hand graze him also but for 10 minutes a day. It does make me happy to help him out a bit. I've only done it for a week but when i'm there working and cleaning he aknowleges me whenever I walk by now. No other workers really take to him. I think its because he's been on his last legs for awhile now and they dont want the inevitable? 


There are a few horses similar to this at this barn but they are younger and still showing. I guess I can attempt to understand that. But this horse could have better now.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

BeckyFletcher said:


> Serious question. No meaning behind it! What is wrong with Western Pleasure? I don't know enough about it to guess what it might be and am curious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sorry about that poor horse. That is clearly a case of neglect no matter how much money they are or have spent on him. Do the merciful thing, geez.

As far as Western Pleasure goes, it is the extremely artificial gaits and head and tail carriage, and the extreme procedures so often used to procure them that I object to. Used to be it was a class to show off your easy-gaited, relaxed, smooth, pleasure-to-ride stock type horse. Now it is a specialized form that has nothing to do with the way horses are ridden outside of that WP arena. Just watch some video of a championship AQHA WP class and make up your own mind.


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## lb27312 (Aug 25, 2018)

Can someone PLEASE come and explain to my horses that being in a stall is a bad thing! Really please!!! let alone 3 in one stall??? GET OUT I tells ya! Maybe if I shut the fans off? Maybe if the sun wasn't so brutally hot right now? I'm not sure but my old guy is in his stall more often than not right now and that's fine with me. He has earned the right to be and do where ever whatever he wants... I know everyone frowns on being stalled but to me there's times to... again to each their own!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

lb27312 said:


> Can someone PLEASE come and explain to my horses that being in a stall is a bad thing! Really please!!! let alone 3 in one stall??? GET OUT I tells ya! Maybe if I shut the fans off? Maybe if the sun wasn't so brutally hot right now? I'm not sure but my old guy is in his stall more often than not right now and that's fine with me. He has earned the right to be and do where ever whatever he wants... I know everyone frowns on being stalled but to me there's times to... again to each their own!


This time of year my horses stay in their stalls all day in front of their fans eating last year's hay instead of the green meadows they have complete access to. Once the sun goes down off they go to graze all night in the cool flylessness. About dawn they show up for breakfast. 

Nothing wrong with stalls per se, as long as there is also freedom.


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## pasomountain (Dec 19, 2018)

I knew some people who kept a young stallion in a small stall with a hotwire around the inside of it so he would behave. They did let him out into a round pen for exercise everyday. He was beautiful--well groomed--good weight. What a miserable life though.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

BeckyFletcher said:


> Right now I'd say a peeve of mine is a 34 year old stalled horse and how his last days are going. He's on his way out. No one knows exactly but I'd be surprised if its more than a year. His mouth is horrible which is causing other issues and nothing can really be done. Not for lack of having vet interaction! But he could be outside. He doesn't need to be in that stall. He gets indoor turn out while stall gets cleaned and owner has an assistant hand graze him a few times a week for a short period of time.
> 
> 
> This was a higher value show horse. He had to have blankets on him at ridiculous times to stay clean, won people some decent money, he did his job for years. Now give him a great ending, geez!
> ...



I wouldn't judge this too harshly only knowing surface level. Is turnout best? Yeah. But if this horse has spent his whole life in a similar routine, it's possible being turned out outside stresses him out too much that it's damaging to his health. 34 years old isn't the time to address those changes. When they're that old you let them do what they want. 

Or maybe he has some delicate soundness problems that outdoor turnout might compromise.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

pasomountain said:


> I knew some people who kept a young stallion in a small stall with a hotwire around the inside of it so he would behave. They did let him out into a round pen for exercise everyday. He was beautiful--well groomed--good weight. What a miserable life though.



We had a stud like that at one place I worked. During the summers he would be running with his mares, then winter he'd get boarded. He'd get stalled at night then turned out to a private paddock. Until he broke out of his paddock then he only got turned out in the indoor arena. He'd climb his stall walls, so those were hot wired. His owner never rode him despite that being the reason she boarded him, so this horse went from pleasant to scary fast. HATED turning him out. Putting his blankets on was a nightmare. He bit me once so I punched him so hard he broke his halter (turned out last for a reason...). Took every tool to get him to walk quietly when he finally got outdoor turnout again.


Big difference compared to the other stud I've taken care of who was turned out almost all the time across the fence from the geldings (could touch noses too), ridden almost daily. Very nice guy.


How about that as another peeve? Studs who shouldn't be studs and people with studs who don't have the time, knowledge, or facilities to handle them.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

ApuetsoT said:


> We had a stud like that at one place I worked. During the summers he would be running with his mares, then winter he'd get boarded. He'd get stalled at night then turned out to a private paddock. Until he broke out of his paddock then he only got turned out in the indoor arena. He'd climb his stall walls, so those were hot wired. His owner never rode him despite that being the reason she boarded him, so this horse went from pleasant to scary fast. HATED turning him out. Putting his blankets on was a nightmare. He bit me once so I punched him so hard he broke his halter (turned out last for a reason...). Took every tool to get him to walk quietly when he finally got outdoor turnout again.
> 
> 
> Big difference compared to the other stud I've taken care of who was turned out almost all the time across the fence from the geldings (could touch noses too), ridden almost daily. Very nice guy.
> ...


I approve of this peeve.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Well I show open, not breed but Otis has won pleasure breed classes with a youth. I can get him going super slow and so low because he is built for it and loves to do it. I have to get him level and longer strides for open showing, otherwise we'd get the gate, most times. There are a few breed show judges that cross over to open, and they seem to judge open with breed show standards, most will not though. But it's not so much about going low and slow, it's about self carriage and cadence. For the record, I did win the pleasure class in this weekend show, and many others English and Western, but my favorite was third in reining against reiners that come to our show to practice, and I won Ranch Horse too! We can move out too!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

elkdog said:


> The only option we get is to like a post or comment. Here's a few I'd like to see.
> 
> You gotta be kidding me.
> That's the dumbest thing I've heard all day.
> Why hasn't anybody hit you in the head with a shovel yet?


Cathartic, yes; persuasive, not so much.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Avna said:


> 1. _You are misinformed._ Outsiders know nothing, nothing. Your ignorance appalls me.
> 2. _It's very rare. _Every discipline has its bad actors. They are just a few bad apples that have nothing to do with regular practices. I have never seen anything like what you are talking about.
> 3. _I take what you said very personally._ I would never do anything to hurt my horse and deeply resent the implication that I do, or would.
> 4. _Every discipline has an ugly side._ What about Rollkur? What about (fill in the blank about some other totally unrelated thing that is easy to see is wrong).
> ...


1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
2. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_all
3. https://thelogicofscience.com/2015/11/25/stop-accusing-me-of-ad-hominem-fallacies-you-stupid-idiots/
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

@mmshiro I am often surprised at how many people have never taken a course on basic logic and or critical thinking. They often lack the ability to spot even the most obvious forms of logical fallacy like 'ad hominem'. It's one of the major reasons I try not to argue on the internet no matter how much I dislike the other persons' position.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

> After reading all this it reminds me that the person who reads and gets upset also holds the power to log off and walk away.


True. And that is why we have lost a long-time HFer this week who brought a wealth of knowledge to this forum. I find it disheartening.

My pet peeve? Finding fault.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Spanish Rider said:


> True. And that is why we have lost a long-time HFer this week who brought a wealth of knowledge to this forum. I find it disheartening.
> 
> My pet peeve? Finding fault.


This is the best combination of experience, education, helpfulness, and politeness to be found on the internet in terms of horse boards, as far as I can tell. The mods here are more judicious and thoughtful than any of the other boards. If that person finds a better virtual spot to pull up to, more power to her.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Some people are more sensitive than others, we don't all have the same mindset or the same likes and dislikes, we come from different backgrounds. If we can respect each other's point of view and position, and rejoice in the fact that we are all involved in horses, yay! I will say it again, you cannot banish one form of equine activity/sport without contributing to the demise of our future. Eventually it will become a world where we are riding in a small circle in the middle of nowhere because that will be the only place is zoned for a horse. Everyone else will have lost interest because their venue is gone.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Perhaps I should elaborate on my "log out, walk away" comment.

For me, there are days where I am aggravated by my real life then I read something in the internet I disagree with or think is stupid and I am on the hook looking for a fight. 

There are other days when my mood is super peachy, I could read the same thing, roll my eyes, text a friend "read this sh!t", laugh and move on. 

I know for myself there are days I am better off to walk away and choose not to engage or oblige the argument. Sometimes it is hard for me to do! 
I will say the best thing I have done so far -divorce Facebook.


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## The Humble Horseman (Dec 5, 2018)

Avna said:


> I am sorry about that poor horse. That is clearly a case of neglect no matter how much money they are or have spent on him. Do the merciful thing, geez.
> 
> As far as Western Pleasure goes, it is the extremely artificial gaits and head and tail carriage, and the extreme procedures so often used to procure them that I object to. Used to be it was a class to show off your easy-gaited, relaxed, smooth, pleasure-to-ride stock type horse. Now it is a specialized form that has nothing to do with the way horses are ridden outside of that WP arena. Just watch some video of a championship AQHA WP class and make up your own mind.


To any newer or younger riders out there reading this that are/were interested in WP, I think it's important to note that this is not the situation in all WP. Rules vary from club to club. What's being described here is more of the competitive levels of the sport. We do LOTS of WP shows here locally with our younger/newer riders as the relaxed pace is a great way to introduce kids/new riders to showing without the extreme competitiveness. It's all about being and feeling relaxed and being 'in-tune' with your horse's movements in the arena while also enjoying yourself and showing off your riding progress! It's proven to be a great confidence builder, and gives our been-there-done-that horses a relaxed job. Everyone at some point in their riding-life has to decide what's acceptable treatment of the horses. If we start nitpicking disciplines too far we only become more divided as a community, because where does it end? Go far enough and we would never ride as humans riding horses was not a natural evolution for the horse. 

In a public forum such as this, I don't think you can really condemn one high level horse sport without pretty much condemning them all (jumping, dressage, racing - barrel or otherwise, etc...) as they all have their unnatural quirks. I'm not trying to change OP's mind, as apparently they've heard all the arguments and none are good enough to justify WP existing, but a blanket condemnation of just WP without acknowledging the shortcomings of all horse sports and addressing it as a black-or-white situation (bad vs. good/exist vs. doesn't exist) isn't the path we should take when impressionable minds are reading. 

I'm not going to say anything more on this, but I wanted this here for those reading that may be interested in getting started in your local WP shows. I don't care how many logic classes y'all did or didn't take, you can't argue away the positive experiences we've had in WP for both us and the horses, and I'll vow to leave it at that. 

Ride on, ride safely, folks. :cowboy:


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Ok, my pet peeve is people who know everything about everything and refuse to acknowledge there may be something they are missing.
@Spanish Rider who did we lose?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Well, I used to love Western Pleasure and showed in it at a low level, but that was nearly fifty years ago. At that time it was the basic intro class for western riders. You just needed a horse who could behave himself in company, and had three decent western gaits. Glad to hear it can still be that way.

The fiercer the competition, the more fertile a bed it is for distortion and for cruelty and suffering. Those are not _required_ but if they give an edge, they will not be refused. Those who do refuse them will mostly leave the sport or at least the level at which they come into play. This is not just horses. And it applies as much to the competitors as their instruments of competition. Competitors abuse their own bodies in order to compete. Not just play through temporary pain, but permanently damage themselves. We glorify and exalt this level of competition, we carry these people on our shoulders. We put them on television.

I will never forget, way back when, bringing my corgi to the National Speciality Show when it happened to be near me that year. He was bred to be a show dog but he was terrified of show ring and everything around it. He didn't do well. Not that I had any investment in it -- the Pembroke Welsh Corgi had changed so much since my first one, who was the practical 'big dog in a small package' of the old style, and this dog, my last corgi before I gave up on the breed, was a fair example -- no legs, ten times the undercoat of my first dog, with the temperament of a chihuahua. But that's not the memory I want to share. It was the sight of my dog's breeder's stud dog being prepped for the get of sire class by being left strung up in a grooming sling on a table, so if he tried to move or lie down he would be strangled, for several hours before the class, so that he would be so happy to be released he would show the 'animation' that was needed to show well. This was not hidden at all. 

He won his class, too. What are the odds that breeder did the same thing at the next show? It was the last dog show I ever went to, or ever will go to.

Next month is the Lippit Morgan Country Show in Vermont; I went last year and enjoyed myself so much I want to go this year too. It's a low key family event with pretty little horses who by and large are friendly, alert, and calm. The same horses compete in pleasure riding, driving, trail classes, halter classes, and even a trotting race. There are no gigantic rigs, no big name trainers with their posse of grooms and disciples, and I daresay there is nobody making any money there except the concessionaire. It reminds me of my own local-show days as a kid. 

I've been railing about the ugly side of competition for oh, thirty or forty years now. All it does is make people mad at me. I doubt I've swayed a single mind. Oh well.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Avna said:


> I've been railing about the ugly side of competition for oh, thirty or forty years now. All it does is make people mad at me. I doubt I've swayed a single mind. Oh well.


You got two people who agree with you, at least: Me, and this guy.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

I like this thread xD Good read before my work day from he-double hockey sticks starts LOL!

I think one of my big pet peeves is sweet feed. So many people around here just through pounds of it at their horses then wonder why their horses are so hot to ride...or foundering....HMMMM? I literally can't stand when people don't take time to research nutrition for their animals.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm uncomfortable with most high level showing. It can be done right with a willing horse doing what it is capable of doing. But this quote of Littauer's about his favorite sport - jumping - seems to apply to almost all horse sports:



> But then there occurred in riding what has often happened before in other human activities - man's ambition to attain the barely attainable took over jumping; it forced many international horsemen to drop Caprilli's method and to search for other, more forcible means of making horses negotiate almost impossible combinations of obstacles. Today many of these horsemen will rightly tell you that Caprilli's basic tenet, that "there is little in common between ring riding and cross-country riding" could be altered to - "there is little in common between cross-country riding and international show jumping.' Show jumping has become a narrow specialty...Artificial jumping problems, and the corresponding artificial means of solving them, have placed such jumping just around the corner from the tanbark of the circus.


One sees in in dog shows, where a fad in judging means a certain type of nose is "better", and the judging eventually results in dogs barely being able to breathe.

In horse sports, those who win are considered examples by young riders. And then the things they have done - artificial solutions to artificial problems - become the "right way" for average riders on average horses. To the detriment of both. At the lower levels, with a willing horse, almost any horse sport is good. But to determine who is "the best" out of the top 200 riders in the world, it takes an extreme that almost no one can do. A very artificial problem that then requires a very artificial solution. THAT is what makes me uncomfortable with most horse sports. It would be like my taking Bandit out on a trail and trying to tackle ever more challenging climbs and descents, trying to find what he could handle just short of dying. It makes no sense to me.








I'm trying to avoid discussing these sorts of things, though, for the same reason my Mom refused to be on the same bowling team as my Dad. He couldn't imagine NOT trying to win, and my Mom couldn't understand why drinking a beer and cracking jokes wasn't more important. So they both went bowling but stayed on different teams. Neither one had any chance of "converting" the other.


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## txgirl (Jul 9, 2010)

Avna said:


> The fiercer the competition, the more fertile a bed it is for distortion and for cruelty and suffering.


I don't think it is the fiercer competition per se, but the the $$$$ involved in those competitions. When money is to be made, the well being of the horse often goes out the window. That's why I train my own horses and compete when I feel it!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

waresbear said:


> Some people are more sensitive than others, we don't all have the same mindset or the same likes and dislikes, we come from different backgrounds. If we can respect each other's point of view and position, and rejoice in the fact that we are all involved in horses, yay! I will say it again, you cannot banish one form of equine activity/sport without contributing to the demise of our future. Eventually it will become a world where we are riding in a small circle in the middle of nowhere because that will be the only place is zoned for a horse. Everyone else will have lost interest because their venue is gone.


I've been thinking about this post. I have a disagreement with it, really. First, if you banish a sport which is inherently abusive, you have done the world a service. But I am not sure that anything I mentioned is that. What the problem is, is something much more difficult to solve, and even to diagnose. In competition I think there must be a continual tweaking of the rules to mitigate if not prevent the inevitable distortions. For example, halter horses might have a mandatory performance class, and a score card based on a club standard specifially geared to prevent bizarro exaggerations. Park competitions mandated to be in flat shoes, normal hoofs, and natural tails. There are higher levels of abuse and exaggeration in the US than in Europe precisely because of the culture of "freedom from rules". 

Second, I would guess that between 80 and 90% of horse owners don't compete in anything much. The main factors reducing horse ownership are (just my opinion here), increasing urbanization and how tight money is for young people especially. People didn't incur crushing debt just to go to college when I was a kid, and I knew plenty of kids who kept a backyard horse on one adult's salary. Not today.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> I'm trying to avoid discussing these sorts of things, though, for the same reason my Mom refused to be on the same bowling team as my Dad. He couldn't imagine NOT trying to win, and my Mom couldn't understand why drinking a beer and cracking jokes wasn't more important. So they both went bowling but stayed on different teams. Neither one had any chance of "converting" the other.


That's where people sports are different, though, from sports that require sentient equipment that had no say in whether to participate and at which level. While it is true that my horse has very little choice in whether he goes out on a trail ride or not, it is also true that he's never been lame a day in his life, he has no vices, and when I sit in his pasture, he comes to rest his head on mine for a snooze. I take those as tacit consent to be my partner. On the other hand, I would never tell an athlete in a sport which puts only strain on him/herself to consider the abusive nature of what they are doing. By their doing their sport at the level they do, I can also assume informed consent.

When a horse sport produces injury, mental problems, and unhealthy aberrations in physiology and anatomy in series, we can assume that there are, indeed, victims to the sport. It's not about curbing anyone's ambition, it's about making sure there are no victims (horses with premature mental or physical burn-out) produced as _a matter of course_. 

It's like in the meat industry: I respect, and will gladly pay, the farmer who says, "My animals have only _one_ bad day in their lives."


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

waresbear said:


> Some people are more sensitive than others, we don't all have the same mindset or the same likes and dislikes, we come from different backgrounds. If we can respect each other's point of view and position, and rejoice in the fact that we are all involved in horses, yay! I will say it again, you cannot banish one form of equine activity/sport without contributing to the demise of our future. Eventually it will become a world where we are riding in a small circle in the middle of nowhere because that will be the only place is zoned for a horse. Everyone else will have lost interest because their venue is gone.


I've been thinking about this post. I have a disagreement with it, really. First, if you banish a sport which is inherently abusive, you have done the world a service. But I am not sure that anything I mentioned is that. What the problem is, is something much more difficult to solve, and even to diagnose. In competition I think there must be a continual tweaking of the rules to mitigate if not prevent the inevitable distortions. For example, halter horses might have a mandatory performance class, and a score card based on a club standard specifically geared to prevent exaggerations. Park competitions mandated to be in flat shoes, normal hoofs, and natural tails. There are higher levels of gross abuse and exaggeration in competition in the US than in Europe precisely because of our culture of "freedom from rules". 

Second, I would guess that between 75 and 90% of horse owners don't compete in anything much. They are trail riders, pleasure riders. The main factors reducing horse ownership are (just my opinion here), increasing urbanization and how tight money is, for young people especially. People didn't incur crushing debt just to go to college when I was young, and I knew plenty of semi-rural kids then who kept a backyard horse on their dad's salary. Not today. 

We horsepeople do have a lot more in common than we have differences. That I surely agree with.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Whoops, double post there.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> That's where people sports are different, though, from sports that require sentient equipment that had no say in whether to participate and at which level. While it is true that my horse has very little choice in whether he goes out on a trail ride or not, it is also true that he's never been lame a day in his life, he has no vices, and when I sit in his pasture, he comes to rest his head on mine for a snooze. I take those as tacit consent to be my partner. On the other hand, I would never tell an athlete in a sport which puts only strain on him/herself to consider the abusive nature of what they are doing. By their doing their sport at the level they do, I can also assume informed consent.
> 
> When a horse sport produces injury, mental problems, and unhealthy aberrations in physiology and anatomy in series, we can assume that there are, indeed, victims to the sport. It's not about curbing anyone's ambition, it's about making sure there are no victims (horses with premature mental or physical burn-out) produced as _a matter of course_.
> 
> It's like in the meat industry: I respect, and will gladly pay, the farmer who says, "My animals have only _one_ bad day in their lives."


I used to think that about people sports until all the scandals about brain injuries in high school football, chronic injuries in young ballerinas, and abuse of young girls in gymnastics and horse showing. I'm okay with adults destroying themselves to win, not so much children who are emulating their elders.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

evilamc said:


> I like this thread xD Good read before my work day from he-double hockey sticks starts LOL!
> 
> I think one of my big pet peeves is sweet feed. So many people around here just through pounds of it at their horses then wonder why their horses are so hot to ride...or foundering....HMMMM? I literally can't stand when people don't take time to research nutrition for their animals.


I wonder what sweet feed is even good for.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Oh for sure Avna, those are the main reasons for diminishing horse ownership. That is why we have to protect what is left. True that most people don't compete, however it is the ones that do, that attract others to horses. You see a horse doing dressage in the Olympics and it plants a seed, you see the triple Crown and the beautiful horses racing, it creates interest. You go to your local fair and you see the horse show, you can wander around the stalls and pet the horses, then your kids start whining at you "Mom I want a horse and I want to do that". if horses weren't out in the public and everybody just kept them in their backyards and on the trails, we would get no publicity, hard to create new interest in that way.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

waresbear said:


> I will say it again, you cannot banish one form of equine activity/sport without contributing to the demise of our future. Eventually it will become a world where we are riding in a small circle in the middle of nowhere because that will be the only place is zoned for a horse.


I don't think that is true. Motorcycles are toys just like horses. Some people drive them on the track to win a medal, more people drive them to Starbucks or into the country, and polish the chrome on the weekends. I think the number of people who enjoy the activity for its own sake, or to _also_ compete, by far outweighs the number of people who are only in it to compete.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

It is interesting how many strong feelings surround competition. There is more depth under the argument that seems lost, like the many horses who live only because they were intended for a competitive sport, and how they are valued because of their ability to provide.

However, I don’t want to try and think that deep today. I want to think on a shallow level, which holds its own sort of depth.

When I was little my mother rode a horse called Lucky. Lucky won everything, going to the world in working cow horse. It didn’t matter what you showed him in though, or even who showed him, the horse would come out a winner. He puffed his chest and carried himself so proud. He knew he was special and he’s absolutely adored the attention he received for it. He also worked the ranch, and he was good for that, although not with that sparkle of pride he carried at a show environment.

Now, I’ve seen lots of horses shown since and I never saw that specific trait again. Along came Bones. Bones and I worked together and with his athleticism he became really good at the events. He can do anything, and he does it with that same pride. At work he carries that pride the most, but I assumed he would love competing. I was wrong. He couldn’t mentally handle town. He hated it and wasn’t himself. I tried two separate times and they resulted the same. He can’t even go to work somewhere different if there are several new horses and people there. It’s just not his thing. He does not want to show off, he does not want to see the new things.

So, Bones doesn’t show. I don’t even try to take him anywhere but work and home. He can’t. I think though most horses fall between Bones and Lucky. To be very good they must actually want to be there, but the average probably doesn’t really have too much to say on the subject. Maybe like a kid going to school, it just is something they do.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When you start sectioning out competitive horse sports with a view to abolishing them because some people are abusive in some way to those horses, where do you stop?
That's moving in the PETA direction
I've seen every bit as much abuse happening to horses in the non competitive world.
Whether it be actual assaults on the horse with intent to harm or the sort of abuse you see in neglect caused by sheer lack of essential knowledge to keep a horse correctly. Its happening every day.

Im not prepared to condemn all hobby horse owners because some of them are truly awful any more than I'm prepared to condemn a competitive sport or hunting or using horses for some work purpose, because there are some bad people involved in them.
There are some horse sports that need a real kick up the backside but I'd rather put efforts into making that kick effective than close the whole thing down


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

jaydee said:


> When you start sectioning out competitive horse sports with a view to abolishing them because some people are abusive in some way to those horses, where do you stop?
> That's moving in the PETA direction
> I've seen every bit as much abuse happening to horses in the non competitive world.


I'm sorry, but that's another example of "Whataboutism." Expressing criticism of abuse in one area does not oblige the critic to equally mention all possible forms of abuse in the same breath. 

And I don't think it is anyone's goal to abolish sports, because if I look back on the thread, most feel that, up to some level, sports are beneficial for the horse. In fact, I consider trail riding just another sports discipline that a horse needs to train for specifically. 

I think outsiders wish that those on the inside, especially those at the higher levels, not those who dabble, would do more to ostracize those who are engaging in abusive training and riding methods.

You know what I liked? When I read that, among endurance riders, "best condition" (of the horse at the finish) is the actual prize worth striving for.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Avna said:


> I wonder what sweet feed is even good for.


It's good for mice about the only thing I can think of ,that it might be good for.


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

my peeves with the horse world:

-people who purchases a horse just for shows or to show off...and hand it off to the groom after each and every ride. Once had a guy own a horse for years yet didn't know how to tack up a camp lesson horse. It was sad. 

-nitpicking on eq when it's not all that bad

-grey horses. Loved by every non-horse person but little do they understand the maintenance (ironically watch my first horse be a grey LOL)

-Judge/general bias in shows based on 1. the breed of horse you have (if it's not a breed specific show), and 2. your clothing. Speaking of:

-Everything is beyond expensive concerning clothing. Breeches, boots and gloves are reasonable usually but that $75 dollar sun shirt? That $40 dollar short sleeve tee? I'll pass.

-Those few people who think lesson kids aren't good riders because they only go to the stable a few times a week (I've met a fair share of these folk. Luckily they're not too common) 

-When people compare horses to 'big dogs'. I personally dislike the latter and can't stand the comparison. Animal training is often similar yes, but these are two different species with very different mentalities.. 

-Tall boots with laces that go above and beyond. Like. Stop. Wouldn't that make it harder to clean anyway?

-As said by someone else, shaved whiskers. They're important for the horse...maybe just cut it down a bit, not a complete shave?? You wouldn't shave your cats whiskers would you? So many artists draw horses without their whiskers and I'm convinced non horsey people don't even know they have them.

--
After my lesson today I'll probably come up with ten more lol


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> When you start sectioning out competitive horse sports with a view to abolishing them because some people are abusive in some way to those horses, where do you stop?
> That's moving in the PETA direction
> I've seen every bit as much abuse happening to horses in the non competitive world.
> Whether it be actual assaults on the horse with intent to harm or the sort of abuse you see in neglect caused by sheer lack of essential knowledge to keep a horse correctly. Its happening every day.
> ...


I totally 100% agree with that. 
Except Big Lick.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> I'm sorry, but that's another example of "Whataboutism." Expressing criticism of abuse in one area does not oblige the critic to equally mention all possible forms of abuse in the same breath.
> 
> And I don't think it is anyone's goal to abolish sports, because if I look back on the thread, most feel that, up to some level, sports are beneficial for the horse. In fact, I consider trail riding just another sports discipline that a horse needs to train for specifically.
> 
> ...


One of the many reasons why I think Endurance is the model horse sport. Only problem with it is the number of people who both can and want to trot for six to twelve hours is finite.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> When you start sectioning out competitive horse sports with a view to abolishing them...


In most cases, I don't want to abolish horse sports. I merely want two things:

1 - More awareness of the horse.

2 - Understanding that success in X doesn't make doing X that way right.

I ran 3 miles a couple of days ago when it was 102 degrees out. My body. My decision. I could listen to my body and adjust. I'd never ask Bandit to do the same because he's a pretty willing horse (well, most of the time) and he cannot tell me when he is feeling light-headed, dehydrated or when his pulse is pounding.

I also want people to understand that what a great rider does to get a performance out of a great horse may be totally wrong for the average rider and average horse.

There are fringe horse sports I just cannot accept. Roping and throwing horses, for example. May be needed once in a great while, but for sport? There are some other fringe activities done as "sport" that strike me as needless cruelty. But most mainstream horse sports are fine as long as the riders remember their horses are horses, not machines.

The "_I own him. He owes me!_" approach is most of what I object to. Obviously many sports riders dearly love their horses and place their care ahead of human goals. That is beautiful.


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## txgirl (Jul 9, 2010)

Finalcanter said:


> -people who purchases a horse just for shows or to show off...and hand it off to the groom after each and every ride. Once had a guy own a horse for years yet didn't know how to tack up a camp lesson horse. It was sad.



That reminds me of when I went to my first rated breed show. I was watching this young lady (probably mid to late teens) and she was in her park horse costume standing by the stall door watching her trainer get her horse ready. No big deal there, I have a friend who helps me a lot at shows. But after the trainer left the stall, the girl just stood there looking at her horse with a blank stare. It got me to thinking did she just not care about her horse or did she want to go I in and love on her horse but afraid of what her trainer would think? I don't remember her patting her horse when she rode either, but hey she did win the class. (insert eye roll) It just made my heart hurt because even as an adult I still love on my horse almost constantly at home and shows! Maybe I read it wrong and she was trying to calm her nerves or going over in her mind how to ride the class but it just seemed something was lacking.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Finalcanter said:


> my peeves with the horse world:
> 
> -people who purchases a horse just for shows or to show off...and hand it off to the groom after each and every ride. Once had a guy own a horse for years yet didn't know how to tack up a camp lesson horse. It was sad.
> 
> ...


some comments: If only gray horses stayed darkly dappled! I swoon over those, 'anti-color' as I profess to be. But dingy white horses with melanomas, not so much. I have a pinto pony with a lot of white. At least with my brown horse I can't tell how dirty she is (answer: very dirty) until I touch her.

As a dog trainer I can't 'like' this enough. Sure, the foundations of all training (all communication) are the same, but a predator with 30,000 years of domestication behind it is a whole different thing than a half ton prey animal with 6,000. Horses are like dogs the way all tame animals are like dogs. 

Saw on FB that France has just made vibrissae trimming illegal. Yay! 

I've got my butt kicked by too many 'lesson kids' to ever think they can't be good riders. 

And you know, except for showing, horse equipment doesn't have to be as fancy as we imagine. I spend money on stuff because I can, and because of the many hours I spent as a kid in tack stores just looking and wishing, without being able to buy anything. But like a lot of things, we are habituated to spend, and not to make do. Horses don't care what it looks like!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

There seems to be an opinion that the higher-level competition is where the abuse happens. Although anecdotal I didn't find that to be true. I saw the abuse or questionable practices come from those who wanted to train/show the high level but didn't have the knowledge and experience to be successful.

I think @Avna mentioned(paraphrasing) those inside of a sport don't find fault with things that are abusive because it's widely excepted in that sport. 
Which is a good point. I think there is truth there but on the flip side, there are many who don't know and have absolutely no experience with something yet have a strong opinion about why it is wrong. 
I find it backwards to have an opinion on a subject not educated on.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Avna said:


> Horses don't care what it looks like!


But....but...I _*KNOW *_Fizz has told me that she wouldn't be caught dead seen out riding in purple. Orange or blue, those are totally fine. But purple, yuck!!


:rofl:


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

egrogan said:


> But....but...I _*KNOW *_Fizz has told me that she wouldn't be caught dead seen out riding in purple. Orange or blue, those are totally fine. But purple, yuck!!
> 
> 
> :rofl:


Oh, I wasn't including Fizz.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

mmshiro said:


> I'm sorry, but that's another example of "Whataboutism." Expressing criticism of abuse in one area does not oblige the critic to equally mention all possible forms of abuse in the same breath.
> 
> And I don't think it is anyone's goal to abolish sports, because if I look back on the thread, most feel that, up to some level, sports are beneficial for the horse. In fact, I consider trail riding just another sports discipline that a horse needs to train for specifically.
> 
> ...


I also haven’t seen anyone on this thread wanting to abolish all competition, I don’t believe that I even hinted at it. 
My point is, from small acorns great oak trees grow and when anyone starts to knock a sport because a few people behave badly in it things have a nasty habit of snowballing.
I’m not seeing where whataboutism comes into it at all.
Endurance is getting a lot of flack right now because of the bad practices that are going on in it. 
I could say I hate Endurance because of that but I don’t because most of those involved treat their horses really well
Joe Public, who have never even sat on a horse don’t know that though. They only hear the negatives and they have the power to make a lot of noise.
I would like to see more done by the governing bodies but I don’t feel that alienating the people who compete and do everything they can to take good care of their horses is the right way to go about it


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

jaydee said:


> I also haven’t seen anyone on this thread wanting to abolish all competition, I don’t believe that I even hinted at it.


It's the first sentence of the post to which I responded:

"When you start sectioning out competitive horse sports with a view to *abolishing them...*"


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

COWCHICK77 said:


> There seems to be an opinion that the higher-level competition is where the abuse happens. Although anecdotal I didn't find that to be true. I saw the abuse or questionable practices come from those who wanted to train/show the high level but didn't have the knowledge and experience to be successful.


It's probably more accurate to say that "at the higher level is where the advocacy for the horse must happen" as those are the riders that tend to be the role models emulated by those, uhm, equally ambitious but less capable, and more likely to resort to shortcuts and gadgetry.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

COWCHICK77 said:


> There seems to be an opinion that the higher-level competition is where the abuse happens. Although anecdotal I didn't find that to be true. I saw the abuse or questionable practices come from those who wanted to train/show the high level but didn't have the knowledge and experience to be successful.
> 
> I think @Avna mentioned(paraphrasing) those inside of a sport don't find fault with things that are abusive because it's widely excepted in that sport.
> Which is a good point. I think there is truth there but on the flip side, there are many who don't know and have absolutely no experience with something yet have a strong opinion about why it is wrong.
> I find it backwards to have an opinion on a subject not educated on.



Well, but. 

Much of the abuse at lower levels happens because they are trying to emulate the people at the top. Maybe they are taking shortcuts the best pros don't, maybe they are pushing horses to do things out of their range because they can't afford elite breeding, and maybe they are just doing what the pros told them to. In any case the inspiration is from the top, though.

My own experience leads me to believe that the argument "outsiders just don't know" is too often really "outsiders are shocked at abuse we can't recognize because it is so integral to success." It is an excuse to keep on with business as usual. Read up on the arguments for Big Lick if you don't believe me. Even if sometimes outsiders really don't know, the insiders have ruined their own credibility. They have resorted to that argument too much.

Another thing that happens fairly often is that outsiders see an extreme thing, and draw an erroneous conclusion as to how it happens, out of ignorance, but that doesn't mean they haven't perceived an essential truth, which is that it is extreme, and hence, most likely achieved by extreme means. 

Now, I am no supporter of people whose deepest encounter with livestock was at a petting zoo getting all outraged about something they have never even witnessed in person, organizing fellow Outragists and marching to their senator's office. That's the way horrible laws get passed. But neither do you need to have won championships at something and then decided to quit the whole business, lose all your friends, and publish an expose, to be able to put two and two together. 

I've never actually seen a Western Pleasure horse get its tail 'nicked' or been behind the barn to see the kind of devices many horses get locked into to force them into whatever head set is the desired look for that competition (only a few of them). I know people who have, though. I've read many accounts, too -- usually from 'insiders' who dropped that venue and so feel free to speak now. Some are exaggerated or misrepresent, but the sheer numbers of the same repetitive stories must argue for some kind of general authenticity. Sure, I'm an outsider but it doesn't make my opinions intrinsically invalid. 

If only insiders were allowed to speak about abuses, who would speak at all? Insiders who aren't so high up they are untouchable, _cannot_ speak with complete honesty or even think with complete objective clarity. It's a game, you pay your dues, you keep your head down, you listen more than you talk, you do exactly what your mentor tells you to, you worship the Big Names, and you don't question the rules of the game, including the unwritten rules. If you want to play at all.


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## GrittyGrulla (Feb 11, 2019)

I agree with so many of you on your pet peeves. I must add one of mine that I haven't seen listed yet (unless I missed it, then I apologize). 

STARFISHING!!!!!!! Yes, starfishing! If you're not sure what that is, it is when a rider (mostly barrel racers) bounce super high off the back of their horse and splay their legs out to the sides to kick them harder. They look like a starfish and have about the same intelligence level too. 

There, I said it. 

.... starfishing..


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> It's probably more accurate to say that "at the higher level is where the advocacy for the horse must happen" as those are the riders that tend to be the role models emulated by those, uhm, equally ambitious but less capable, and more likely to resort to shortcuts and gadgetry.


Are you saying advocacy doesn't happen at the high level?

So does that mean the high-level trainers need to dumb down their ability to get results(with out abuse) just so those trying to get there won't use shortcuts?


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Are you saying advocacy doesn't happen at the high level?
> 
> So does that mean the high-level trainers need to *dumb down their ability to get results(with out abuse)* just so those trying to get there won't use shortcuts?


Are you saying that you have to be pretty dumb as a trainer to sacrifice results for the sake of not being abusive?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Avna said:


> Well, but.
> 
> Much of the abuse at lower levels happens because they are trying to emulate the people at the top. Maybe they are taking shortcuts the best pros don't, maybe they are pushing horses to do things out of their range because they can't afford elite breeding, and maybe they are just doing what the pros told them to. In any case the inspiration is from the top, though.
> 
> ...


I never said outsiders can't have an opinion. I said there are two sides to the coin and the other side from what you mentioned is there are things that are misunderstood by lack of education, knowledge and experience. 

I have no experience with Big Lick. I have never seen it, never researched it and that is why you'll never see me comment about it. I have no reason to run my head about it. 

But to give an example of what I do have experience is fencing horses for showing in reining or the dry work for reined cow horse. Again, on Facebook in the horse groups, "ermagerd!! They run horses into the fence to get them to stop! Abuse! Abuse!"
Well that's not why its done. Quite the opposite. There is no effort to learn why even when explained. They have never done it or never seen it but by Gawd it is abuse. 

Same with the spade bit debate. People see the mouthpiece and run around with their head on fire screaming abuse and my favorite, "my horse rides great in a snaffle and just a halter I don't see the need". 

That is the BS I am talking about. I get tired of people crying abuse over the things they don't understand.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I completely agree with @COWCHICK77. Now, that’s not to say there isn’t a person who does bad things winning high end competitions. However, it seems to be my experience that high end competitors are less likely to resort to some sort of shortcut.

Maybe it is just that I am not wrapped up in disciplines where abuse is common. I don’t know. I can be judgmental though, watching someone warm up a horse for an event doing something I don’t approve of. Those people though, maybe big shots in a small pond, never quite seem to be able to compete with the best quality horses. They are just a step behind.

Now, I don’t know western pleasure. I don’t really enjoy slow events like that, but I also highly doubt many people tie a horse’s head up. My horses tend to want to carry themselves in such a way in an arena warming up or going slow. I don’t like it, but apparently it is my hidden super power. They are relaxed and I guarantee I’ve never tied their heads up. 

Maybe there was some person who taught a few other people that. Take for example “see-sawing.” I hate that! Yet, there is a trainer around here that does that and has taught some apprentices to do the same. That doesn’t mean it is super common.

I truly feel when a person resorts to such a move it is because they have reached the end of their knowledge on the subject. That would tend the behavior towards a lower level trainer or rider. Some high level trainers may continue a bad practice because they don’t know a better way, but not a lot.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Are you saying that you have to be pretty dumb as a trainer to sacrifice results for the sake of not being abusive?


Nope not all. Perhaps I didn't understand your point.
I read your comment as you are worried about the lower level guys trying to achieve a higher level of performance resorting to abusive tactics as somehow the higher-level trainers fault because he can get those results without abuse.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I never said outsiders can't have an opinion. I said there are two sides to the coin and the other side from what you mentioned is there are things that are misunderstood by lack of education, knowledge and experience.
> 
> I have no experience with Big Lick. I have never seen it, never researched it and that is why you'll never see me comment about it. I have no reason to run my head about it.
> 
> ...


Well, you don't see either of those on my list. Because neither is abusive (unless used wrongly of course but that is true of just about everything). 

I do know what you mean. It is a shame that truly abusive practices are so easily lumped with those that are not, and that practitioners of disciplines end up feeling like they have to be on the defensive about everything that happens within their discipline, a circle the wagons approach that while understandable, just sets up a situation where positive change is resisted as hard as any other change. 

Uninformed ignorant outrage gives informed outrage a bad name.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Nope not all. Perhaps I didn't understand your point.
> I read your comment as you are worried about the lower level guys trying to achieve a higher level of performance resorting to abusive tactics as somehow the higher-level trainers fault because he can get those results without abuse.


Ah, no - high-level performers should be better advocates for ethical training because they are role models. Lower-level equestrians seek to emulate the successful ones (monkey see - monkey do), but if all they have to emulate are the medals and the ribbons and the social status, and they don't learn to respect and admire sound training methods, that's when you get abuse sneaking in. It's all in how lower-level equestrians define themselves as winners....like in the endurance rider example, where riders are actually mostly competing for the "horse in best condition" recognition.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

mmshiro said:


> It's the first sentence of the post to which I responded:
> 
> "When you start sectioning out competitive horse sports with a view to *abolishing them...*"


That had nothing to do with anything that’s been said here but based on first hand observation of the comments you see from horse lovers that follow FB pages that frequently report on accidents or investigations of abuse in racing, eventing and endurance etc. 
A horse dies after such an accident and more people want to ban that entire competitive sphere rather than push for improved safety measures. 

There are people who work tirelessly to fight against abuse in competition without attacking the competition. That I admire.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I'm glad y'all are more articulate than I am!
@Avna I wasn't suggesting you thought my examples were cruel. I was using them as things I am familiar with being the insider and having the uneducated outsider attack. 

I get what you're saying and you stated my point better than I could have! 

Same with @Knave. I'm going to have her write my posts for me:grin::grin::grin:


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> Ah, no - high-level performers should be better advocates for ethical training because they are role models. Lower-level equestrians seek to emulate the successful ones (monkey see - monkey do), but if all they have to emulate are the medals and the ribbons and the social status, and they don't learn to respect and admire sound training methods, that's when you get abuse sneaking in. It's all in how lower-level equestrians define themselves as winners....like in the endurance rider example, where riders are actually mostly competing for the "horse in best condition" recognition.


I have ridden for some not so ethical trainers but they have either lacked the talent, knowledge or experience. Another scenario was a trainer who had been in the game so long and never sought more guidance as the sport evolved. 

The high level trainers were not abusive(i rode with)they could get those results without abuse and the horses stayed in their sport for a long time. The trainers nor the horses were used up. 

You seem to think the abuse comes from seeing the big guys do it. That is not always the case! Some try to get the high performance without the knowledge then get frustrated and resort to those tactics.
It is not always monkey see-monkey do.

My last stint riding for a trainer I rode for a BNT who trained and showed the highest money earning horse in the sport. The horse had a very lengthy show career as well and there were no gimmicks, no tying heads around, no magical lunging systems, no gadgets that need to be hidden in the back of the tack room.

The guy is talented and has the knowledge and experience.

That is the guy I try to emulate.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

COWCHICK77 said:


> You seem to think the abuse comes from seeing the big guys do it. That is not always the case! They try to get the high performance and without the knowledge get frustrated and resort to those tactics.
> It is not always monkey see-monkey do.


I really thought I cleared that up. Abuse comes in when the definition of success becomes skewed towards trophies, rather than partnership with the horse. When beginner and intermediate riders only see that recognition comes with trophies, trophies is what they'll go after. If they saw that recognition comes with ethical training, the mindset would shift.

I did not say lower-level riders emulate bad practices they observe. I said that lower-level riders slip into bad practices because their definition of being a "winner" does not include good practices, but only being the fastest, the most high-stepping, etc. Applying ethical practices in keeping and training of horses has to become part of the definition of success in equestrian sports, so even people who are not intrinsically motivated to do right by the horse will be induced to apply them. But only people who are already successful by current standards can guide such a shift, because they're the ones who are being emulated, admired, and listened to.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ApuetsoT said:


> went from pleasant to scary fast. HATED turning him out. Putting his blankets on was a nightmare. He bit me once so I punched him so hard he broke his halter (turned out last for a reason...). Took every tool to get him to walk quietly when he finally got outdoor turnout again.


Oh the poor horse! As horrible as it is to think of those who NEVER get turned out, imagine, to be imprisoned in solitary confinement, after experiencing what life is about!!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> I really thought I cleared that up. Abuse comes in when the definition of success becomes skewed towards trophies, rather than partnership with the horse. When beginner and intermediate riders only see that recognition comes with trophies, trophies is what they'll go after. If they saw that recognition comes with ethical training, the mindset would shift.
> 
> I did not say lower-level riders emulate bad practices they observe. I said that lower-level riders slip into bad practices because their definition of being a "winner" does not include good practices, but only being the fastest, the most high-stepping, etc. Applying ethical practices in keeping and training of horses has to become part of the definition of success in equestrian sports, so even people who are not intrinsically motivated to do right by the horse will be induced to apply them. But only people who are already successful by current standards can guide such a shift, because they're the ones who are being emulated, admired, and listened to.


Fair enough, I see what you're trying to say.

I guess it's hard for me to paint the whole horse show world with a broad brush. That it is all about the buckles, ribbons and checks. I find it disheartening some people have that attitude towards horse shows and come to find out they have never been or tried.

Don't get me wrong, I love to win! But I am not going to sacrifice my horse to do so and I know more people in my boat than not.
The people I try to associate myself are the ones you ask, "how'd you do at the show/rodeo?" 
"Didn't draw a check but my horse worked good."
And I am happy for that person, that's winning too.
It is about goal setting and achieving for me. It is an awesome feeling when my horses and I are working together well and then anyone has shown knows keeping together while in town showcasing it is a bonus!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I also haven’t seen anyone on this thread wanting to abolish all competition, I don’t believe that I even hinted at it.
> My point is, from small acorns great oak trees grow and when anyone starts to knock a sport because a few people behave badly in it things have a nasty habit of snowballing.
> I’m not seeing where whataboutism comes into it at all.
> Endurance is getting a lot of flack right now because of the bad practices that are going on in it.
> ...


Endurance itself is not getting a lot of flack right now. What is getting a lot of flack is the clearly abusive practice in international FEI Endurance competition perpetrated by one specific area, Group Seven, the Middle East, where running drugged horses to death has been proven at the highest levels. The AERC (US Endurance association) has withdrawn in protest from the FEI because of its ineffectual response to these events which have been ongoing for years. The AERC has topflight standards for horse care and enforces them. 

If you want to see more done by governing bodies, what exactly would you suggest that wouldn't alienate the people who compete? I ask because this question is extremely difficult to answer. Look at horse racing in the US -- has 'self-policing' worked real great? Would mandating drug testing by government-paid veterinarians of every horse just before entering the starting gate risk 'alienating the competitors'? What I think is going to happen to US TB racing is more horses will die and die and die until the outrage of Joe Public outlaws racing entirely. Because the insiders have too much invested and are too insular to do anything but resist change. The same is happening with Big Lick. They refused to change, just doubled down, flouted or evaded all the laws meant to control the abuse, and now they are a dwindling dying sport, a tiny remnant of its glory days.

Unless there are rational rules with teeth in them, there will be no change other than people voting with their feet.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I think some people think different about horses than I do, or anyone on here does. Some people don’t really see who a horse is. They don’t know a horse has feelings and opinions. (Oh, please don’t accuse me of anthropomorphism. I know. I do. I don’t care who doesn’t like it.)

So, born with a competitive spirit, if you didn’t empathize with a horse you wouldn’t care how you won if you won. 

Now, we cannot change how people look at the world. I don’t think those people are usually successful. They lack a connection and understanding that would take them to the top.

I do understand what you are saying @mmshiro, that some people will blindly follow others to feel good about themselves. Trainers who are doing the best in a sport aren’t teaching others. However, being a good horseman and a good human teacher are two totally differing things.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

mmshiro said:


> I don't think that is true. Motorcycles are toys just like horses. Some people drive them on the track to win a medal, more people drive them to Starbucks or into the country, and polish the chrome on the weekends. I think the number of people who enjoy the activity for its own sake, or to _also_ compete, by far outweighs the number of people who are only in it to compete.


You picked a good comparison, my son is motorcycle mechanic. If motorcycles were only ridden at home and out of view, way less people would think of getting one. I know this for a fact, seen a lady i know at a gas station while we were leathered up and riding, she said that looks fun. Year later, she & her hubby have a Harley and she is wearing leathers similar to mine, lol.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Avna said:


> Those things I mentioned may or may not be "perfectly normal"



Please go back and read your own post. YOU SAID those things ARE perfectly normal in the sport of barrel racing. Not _"may or may not"_. And that is specifically what bothered me.


So which is it? Are you changing your statement?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

beau159 said:


> Please go back and read your own post. YOU SAID those things ARE perfectly normal in the sport of barrel racing. Not _"may or may not"_. And that is specifically what bothered me.
> 
> 
> So which is it? Are you changing your statement?


I would change my statement but I can't talk about it any more.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thread has run its course so is being closed


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