# Critique my boy :D (pic heavy)



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Yes I know I had this done a while ago, but that picture of him was a while ago and he was fat then so I thought I'd get a good confo shot of him recently and see what everyone things now.

I'm going to include the "before" picture and the "after" pictures. You can critique both...also please let me know what changes you see and what I should work on (muscle wise or toning).

Yes, he IS ribby (so please don't mention it) I am currently working on that hehe.

Oh, and also....if you say (for example) he needs more muscling in his forehand or more of a topline....PLEASE also give suggestions on how I can do that. Thankies

"Before" picture:








^^Taken 1/23/08 (first day as a horse owner hehe)

"After" picture:








(sorry you can't see the feet...if I backed up any further and dropped the line Sonny woul deither follow or run to the gate hehe)









(front legs...yes he's standing under himself...not sure if it's an actual flaw for him or just the way he stood hehe)









(he doesn't like his picture taken..."Mom you have too many of my already")









(with shiny hooves hehe)










No behind picture, sadly 

Videos of movement:
(I think he's moving alot better than before...unless he's doing his slow western trot, his back feet land in the same spot (about) as his front feet did).

Trot:
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/...tinue/?action=view&current=Sonnyhooves018.flv
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/...tinue/?action=view&current=Sonnyhooves019.flv

Canter:
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/...tinue/?action=view&current=Sonnyhooves020.flv

Trot and Canter (in roundpen)
http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/...tinue/?action=view&current=Sonnyhooves094.flv


Also, be honest...rip him apart if you want. He's still the bestest horse in the world in my opinion and even if he turns out so lame that he can't be ridden anymore (only pasture sound) I defiantely won't sell him or put him down. He's mine till his last day 

Thanks all in advance!!!


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

no one?


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## Just Jump It (Jan 13, 2008)

Needs lots more muscling especially through the top line. Lots of work in a correct working frame will help this. Long and low will keep him supple and reaching for the bit with his whole body, while hill work will concentrate on that butt.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

yeah I know he needs work on the top line

When you say "long and low" do you mean like low headed western pleasure type thing?

I've been riding him with his head on the vertical and his back fairly rounded (but not all the way though). I haven't done much hill work because the only hill is all gravel at the moment...I might try blocking off one of the pastures and riding him up the hill there...maybe that would work


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## moomoo (Feb 21, 2007)

He is very nice  I like Sonny, he looks in better shape than when you got him  Im not very good at critiqing but he has nice movement and quite a floatie trot


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

moomoo said:


> He is very nice  I like Sonny, he looks in better shape than when you got him  Im not very good at critiqing but he has nice movement and quite a floatie trot


awww thanks Moomoo! Before I bought him he just sat in a pasture all day...he had zero endurance and zero energy....and now omg he's fast and just wants to go hehe.
I've tried critiquing Sonny...but I'm not good at critiquing my horse...he's perfect to me hehe


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

oh...here's a pic so you can see his neck better











Do you think his back looks a little long? Maybe it's just the camera or something


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## Just Jump It (Jan 13, 2008)

Long and low is defintely not western headset!!  

You have to get the horse working in a proper frame, that is, moving actively off of inside leg into an outside rein contact. Slowly lengthen the inside rein while STILL keeping contact. If you totally drop that rein contact, then the whole exercise is worthless. You want your horse to push his head and neck down searching for that outside contact. Since his head and neck is stretched down and relaxed, his back will round and come up allowing his stride to become sweeping and allowing his hind to really reach under. His whole frame will strentghen but at the same time remain supple.


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## paws (May 27, 2008)

well he is really skinny!! Well it might just be me cuz we keep our horses a lil on the chunky side. But i don't like to see horses ribs showing..... That scared me a bit.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

paws said:


> well he is really skinny!! Well it might just be me cuz we keep our horses a lil on the chunky side. But i don't like to see horses ribs showing..... That scared me a bit.


I know he is skinny...and I said I was working on it....he's just not gaining weight for some reason...he's already getting 1 or more bales of hay a day


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## Just Jump It (Jan 13, 2008)

If your horse is getting a bale a day and hes still that thin, I think he may be in need of more nutrition. Try a pelleted feed with at least 6% fat and 14% protein. Corn oil drizzled on the feeed also helps.

Also, try checking his teeth and keep him regularly dewormed.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Alright, here's the down'n dirty. ^^;
If you want your horse to be muscled like a show horse (ie, Topline muscle), you have to feed him like a show horse. His body can not produce that kind of muscle on hay alone; he needs more nutrients. And not on the days you ride; he needs to get grain daily, every day... probably about 6-7 pounds a day. You can then cut back on the hay... but he needs about 50-75 pounds. I'm not saying he's underweight (i'm sure that's what it sounds like!), but to gain the muscle you want, he NEEDS that kind of weight and food. My horse looked much like yours coming out of the pasture in the winter... he's put on 150 and looks fabulous.  As long as your horse is working, he won't get fat.
Second point: He needs to be worked correctly, if you want to build nice topline. I hate to say it, but although he is under-muscled and a little fat in his before picture, his top line is better. There are two ways to build topline--the right way, by pushing the horse forward and riding him from behind into your hand; and the wrong way, by putting his head on the vertical and assuming he is round. I'll show you how I know he's being worked incorrectly, and so you know what proper topline should look like:








The red arrow points to a break in the muscle from his neck to his back--a HUGE sign of a horse being ridden on the vertical, but not engaging his hind end nor lifting his back. I call this 'riding the horses face.' Your horse has a dip in this spot in all of his pictures. Look for it on other horses... you'll be amazed at how many aren't being worked correctly.
The blue lines indicate where his topline should be. On his neck, he has almost no muscle up at the top, where it belongs, to curl up and help pick up his back.
The blue line on his back shows the drop that made you think he was sway backed--if you look at his 'before' picture, it is not that steep. (Check your tack; sometimes if a saddle presses here muscle cannot build.)
The blue line on the rump shows the steep angle. Many (bad) western pleasure horses have this angle, because they are not being worked correctly.
And lastly, the blue line on his stomach shows where his abdominal muscles should be... they are a huge factor in helping bring up the back.
And last but NOT least is the light purple-y arrow, showing how much muscle your horse has on the wrong side of his neck! This is one of the main reasons one can tell he isn't being worked in a manner to build topline--his neck looks 'upside down', because all the muscling is at the bottom. These are the muscles the horse uses to pull against your hands, or to fight a head set.
Done with the picture, it also looks like your horse is a little club-footed, or you have a bad farrier. The pastern-to-hoof angle is wrong (or at least it looks like that in the pictures). In his video at the trot it looks like he could be a little sore... and I'm wondering if he got his feet fixed, that would go away.
Here's some examples of what you need to do with him! Like someone said, work him long and low:








That's a little too low, and his heads behind the vertical, but it's all i have at the moment. He's reaching down, but his stride is still long and mainly, POWERFUL. This is what you should feel, and what you should be thinking, when you want to build topline: 'we're going somewhere with PURPOSE! I don't have to push him on at every step! And he feels in COMPLETE CONTROL.' The control part is important! If he's just trucking through, he's not using himself correctly, either.
Here's a decent picture of me riding the same horse; since he's only training/intro level (he has a bad old stifle injury), his head isn't extremely high. When you are teaching and beginning, don't try to get your horse's head to look like those in upper-level dressage horses. It's not supposed to be there!








The reins are loose, so he's holding himself in position (yes, I'm a western pleasure rider, lol! I like collection with loose reins, as do some classical dressage riders.) He's working through his hind end very nicely, and you can even see a bit of his abdominal muscles helping to lift his back. Most importantly? He looks calm, in control, and happy--a huge part of dressage, and for me, a huge part of riding.
If you need help on getting your horse to train like that, maybe i can get a video together. ^^
Good luck! I know a bit of this was harsh, but the good thing is is that all of it can be changed. 

Edited... my picture code was wrong! lol


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I don't have any of that special equiptment nor do I have the money to buy it...how then, will I be able to get Sonny "long and low" without that...
are there ways to work with him "in saddle" to get it...or does it all start with ground work.

How much would that stuff cost? I'm assuing it's fairly pricey

Also, in the first picture...he wasn't being ridden at all before I bought him...so how could he have a topline if he wasn't being excersized?


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I have this. It's pretty similar to the pessoa, only a heck of a lot less. I've been using it on Vega and can get her to go long and low.

http://www.sstack.com/shopping/prod...RODUCT&iMainCat=67&iSubCat=88&iProductID=6318


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

oooh that's pretty cheap!
How is it doing with Vega? 

Do you have any pics or videos of Vega with it? I'd curious to see how it works


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I'm heading up there today, I'll take a video of me lunging her in it. I have a video of it, but i have no idea where it is ATM

She's doing good with it. She's still learning that she has a rear end and that it makes her life easier when she uses it. I also only use it for like 5-10 min so she doesn't get too sore afterwards


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

when you say 5-10 minutes because she'll get sore is that because it's harsh...or is it just a big workout for horses that aren't used to it? or something else?

Thanks so much Appy! I really appreciate it! I'll probably end up buying it...it's worth a try


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

They say not to work the horses too long in it because they are using more muscles then they are used to using. Once your horse has the muscles they can go for longer.

It's really not harsh, IMHO. I find it a lot better than side reins because since it is a pully system, there's nothing they can lean against. They do also give you instructions and pictures for it too.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Oh, haha I'm sorry. Nono, you don't need that at all; I just wanted to show you what long and low looks like. (The only reason why I had it because that horse's back muscles had atrophied... and the only way to get them back is something like that! long story. lol) How do you get long and low in the saddle?
After you work a horse in a higher, correct head set, the correct way to work long and low is to offer him the rein. When done correctly, the horse will take the bit and lower his neck, and you can almost hear them going 'ah!!!' because it's like a big stretch for them.  Actually, I don't really advocate using the pessoa system if the horse can be ridden... it can build topline, but it won't transfer to the saddle.
And the horse had a better topline without being ridden because he was using the correct muscles to carry himself in the pasture... when you only ride a horse's face, the wrong muscles are used (like the underside of his neck and such) and then the topline can degrade.
Also, really consider doing something about his feet.  The hoof looks wonderful, it's just that the angle is terrible. Not your fault, though!!


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

do you have any side photos of a "long and low" horse...it's hard to tell exactly how where the head and neck is and what is actually looks like.

I've tried having his head on the verticle and slowly giving him the rein and have his head go down and neck stretched out...but he won't round the back or use the hind muscles.

Also he won't keep his neck down when trotting or cantering...its up errect almost, but head isn't curved nor is his back rounded


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I know exactly what you mean, sometimes it's really hard to encourage it.  The chestnut I have in my pictures is the same way; it was really hard to encourage him to offer me the long and low. It's so darn important though.  lol
I'll see if I can take a video tomorrow of me riding the chestnut horse (Clyde!). He's a good one to watch because he's not super-trained, and mainly, he's sounds a lot like your horse and you can see how to offer him long and low, and how to funnel him into it if he won't offer.
(You may know the funnel trick... you hold your arms low and wider then your hips, and GENTLE wiggle your fingers on the reins to encourage them down. They do it in western pleasure--but they usually jerk, taking away the whole darn concept.)


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

mayfieldk said:


> I know exactly what you mean, sometimes it's really hard to encourage it.  The chestnut I have in my pictures is the same way; it was really hard to encourage him to offer me the long and low. It's so darn important though.  lol
> I'll see if I can take a video tomorrow of me riding the chestnut horse (Clyde!). He's a good one to watch because he's not super-trained, and mainly, he's sounds a lot like your horse and you can see how to offer him long and low, and how to funnel him into it if he won't offer.
> (You may know the funnel trick... you hold your arms low and wider then your hips, and GENTLE wiggle your fingers on the reins to encourage them down. They do it in western pleasure--but they usually jerk, taking away the whole darn concept.)


I did that with Sonny today...I put my hands back to my hips (mainly so they don't move around (I gave him extra rein so I wasn't tight on his mouth...just had enough contact) and each he'd try to lift his head up, I'd wiggle.

Isn't proper collection supposed to feel like you are riding "upshill"? Does when I was doing it....it kinda felt different...but not "uphill" more like he was rounded and I could feel his back better
It's hard to describe...I'll get some videos of it on Sunday if I can find someone to film it for me

I got him to go low and such...but when I tried to bring my reins up he'd raise up....how can I get it so I can have my hands regular but he has his head the way it should be?

Edit: wrote that wrong...meant to say that I was holding my hands down low and opened it further....not holding my hands just at my hips


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Long and low isn't really 'proper' collection... it is a stepping stone to getting there.  You should feel long, sweepy strides, his back come up, and his neck arch downwards, into the bit. It doesn't feel like you just put a horses head and neck down... it feels like power.  haha.
Here's something to try: Attempt to put his head in a higher, normal, on-the-vertical place, with forward motion. Ride him around like that for a bit, and then give him rein. If he does nothing, scoop your rein back up and continue. After giving him several attempts to go low, when you release and give him rein, try funneling him down... so he'll get the idea of where he's supposed to go. Some horses are so unbalanced that it's very hard for them to go long and low undersaddle!


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I'll try that...
how do I turn that into proper collection though once I get him doing that correctly?


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

He really needs some groceries as well as lots of muscle. The poor guy has no top line whatsoever.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

You just start slowly asking the horse to lift his head and shoulders higher and higher--slowly as in over months/years, lol! You also do a lot of side-passing, half-passing, haunches and shoulders in--you can't ride your horse in a straight line and expect them to build all kinds of crazy muscle, hehe. The horse learns to carry /you/ and use his hind end more... if you ever have the chance to watch the horses the guys ride in bullfighting, those horses are usually RIDICULOUSLY collected.. more so then any upper level dressage horse! Here's a really good 'time line' of the frame your horse should be in at various stages of training. http://www.sustainabledressage.com/collection/true_collection/museler_podhajsky_collectio.jpg
The only warning I can give you is this: Competitive dressage is not classical dressage. If you watch most of the horses in the olympics, you'll notice that they have really high shoulders.... and really high hind ends, making their backs extremely hollow. It's the only way for the horse to get that kind of height and lift in their movement in so short of a time. The horses aren't truly collected in a classical sense, and thats why they have such massive shoulders! lol


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

how would I go about doing that? I know these questions sound stupid...but I always thought that when a horses head was on the verticle it was considered collected


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Yeah, a lot of people think that too.  That's why it's so hard to learn what's right.
It's hard to explain, but since I'm taking my horse Clyde through the same stuff, it'd just be easier to show you on a little video or something.
A horse can be on the vertical, but think about it--if you get down on your hands and knees and bend your head, it doesn't automatically make your back go up, does it? But if you tuck your knees under you, your back rounds (your head also drops a little... think yoga! lol). That's what we want in true collection; the hind end carrying all the weight, allowing the front end to become light and free. That's why is /so important/ to push a horse into your hands. What do I mean by this? You have to squeeze or cluck to your horse so that he gives you energy and impulsion, and he's going somewhere--and your hands only channel that energy, and that eventually turns into a head set, ie, the head on the vertical. You have to think about rocking your horse back (also, make sure that YOU lean back and sit straight! If you lean forward, so will your horse!), and you'll feel him fill up your seat, with his back rising. Then he's carrying you, and you aren't just sitting on his back. It's hard to get there, but it's worth it, even if you're just riding western.
You also have to remember that it takes a while--the horse has to build the muscle to carry you, and that doesn't happen in a week, or a few days. Around 3 weeks-to a month, thats when your horse is physically ready to advance, as long as he's working regularly, but it doesn't mean he's mentally ready!
For the mean time, don't worry so much about your horses head set, and focus on getting him forward and with purpose. You can even try working on the gaits-within-a-gait. Collected trot, medium trot, extended trot. Collected trot isn't 'he's going slow, so he's collected'. The collected trot is higher, bouncy, think of lots of energy. The medium is medium, and the extended trot isn't fast, it's longer strides. Think of posting higher and longer, to encourage him to take bigger strides. Try to work on some lateral movement... when they start that, that's when I introduce the head-on-the-vertical to the horse.


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## Just Jump It (Jan 13, 2008)

A horse is not collected when his head is on the verticle. Collection is the control of energy. Energy is collected by the reins. No energy equals no collection. 

Before you worry about long and low, make sure you have inside rein to outside rein collection. Does your horse respond to leg pressure? Put that inside leg on him to get him to step under himself with his inside hind leg. This is the most important leg. This leg supports the horse and this is what he carries himself on. 

Once you horse is moving away from your inside leg, steady your outside rein. This rein will _collect _all the energy you have created with your inside leg. Always keep this rein steady and never drop the contact, especiall ywhen you are doing long and low. Wiggle the inside rein to encourage him to bend to the inside. Once he gives, stop the wiggling. 

Do lots of circles with this inside leg to outside rein. On a small circle, you'll feel your horse try to move to the outside. Keep that outside rien steady to hold him on the small circle. By always keeping this rein, you'll teach him that hee can balalnce himself on that rein because it will always be there for him.

When he has been moving on this connection, let your outside rein slip through your fingers a little. You should feel your horse REACH down to find that outside rein contact. You should not PULL your horse down onto it, he should try to find it himself. 

This is the most imprtant concept of long and low. The horse is reaching with his head, thus rounding and raising his back thus allowing his legs to reach further under himself. he is not being forced onto the bit in any way, instead he is willingly reaching for the bit. 

Don't worry about getting a proper frame right away. Instead work on this basic connection which is the stepping stone for more advanced movements. 

Google "long and low dressage". A picture of a gray horse performing the exercise should come up.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

well Sonny's problem is...is he hates extending...he'll do it if I keep on nagging him, but he doesn't do it that easily hehe. 

So lean back, but sit up straight? I'm confused there


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## Just Jump It (Jan 13, 2008)

Don't worry about extending. If he is ahving trouble performing long and low he should not extend. He dosen't yet understand the basic concept. Hes probably having trouble because he is stiff throughout the shoulder and back. Get him loose and supple before attempting extension of any kind. If you try to extend a horse before hes ready, he'll just fall on the forehand and rush. 

Can you flex your horses head to the inside and _outside_ while on a circle? This is a good test to see if your horse is supple through his head and neck.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Haha, I meant sit straight, and just be careful not to lean forward. 
Extending isn't a huge thing to worry about, and yes, I <3 bending horses, lol! It's something I use whilst riding dressage horses, though I think more western pleasure trainers use it. While on a circle, pull your horses head to the inside (a small amount at first, then increase when he's comfortable), and go around until he's relaxed, then counterbend him to the outside and continue the same circle until he's relaxed. I warm my horses up this way every day.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

he bends great but I had to teach him that myself cause he was previously a trail horse and didn't really know too much other than his basic gaits...
I can have him turn his head inside for the circle...haven't tried outside yet.

I can have him go around the wall with his head bent in or out...with no problem

I also do basic stretching of the neck excersizes with him..I'll bend his back to the right, then to the left, and repeat for about 4 times each side. I do that before attempting to get him on the verticle. 

He backs up fine and leg-yields fine...and turns on haunces/forehand fine (that is only when I get the right cues hehe)

Edit to add: what do you think of this way to "collect"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZK4Imx5e7c


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

It's not a very good way to collect at all... but a very good way to a more 'broke' horse, if that makes sense! lol
The woman's actions do nothing to facilitate that horse bringing his legs further underneath him, though by bending he's getting more flexible.


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