# Tie downs and such



## buddy09

I was just wondering if your useing a tie down in barrels and your horse falls will it be able to get back to it's feet?

Training forks- i was wondering about these too can you use them in barrels.

And boots- I was just looking around at horses on craigslist and i found one that had two different color boots on! What do you guys think about all using to different color boots, would it be cool, weird and what would happen if they were two different types of boots like the SMB elite and an SMB 3 would that affect anything?

What do you guys think about these things? just wondering what other people think about everything


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## BuckOff41570

buddy09 said:


> I was just wondering if your useing a tie down in barrels and your horse falls will it be able to get back to it's feet?
> 
> Training forks- i was wondering about these too can you use them in barrels.
> 
> And boots- I was just looking around at horses on craigslist and i found one that had two different color boots on! What do you guys think about all using to different color boots, would it be cool, weird and what would happen if they were two different types of boots like the SMB elite and an SMB 3 would that affect anything?
> 
> What do you guys think about these things? just wondering what other people think about everything


Tiedowns- There is a specific way of adjusting them so that they allow the horse enough freedom to regain balance in said situation. 

Training forks- I am not a believer in using them on barrels. I think they are great for teaching a horse to break at the pole and give to the bit, but can pull a horse down onto it's forehand and throw the balance off on the pattern.

SMBs- it's all a personal preference as far as colors go. I've seen em different colored all the way around... but dont see a mixture of types. (brands- make)


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## chika1235

i use a tie down everytime i run the barrels because my horse throws her head up and doesnt listen when she runs.i tie my horses head down tight enough to not let her do that but loose enough if that we ever have an accident again shell be able to stand up.


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## buddy09

well i use a tie down too and i thought that it would keep my horse down and out of my face, but she ended up rearing up and smashing me into the ground i came out of it with, a first place run, **,000 for selling that horse, and 4 snapped ribs from the saddle. wasnt' my best weekend but atleast i sold the horse that did it


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## kevinshorses

With every tiedown or set of training forks they should sell a t-shirt that says "I don't know how to use my hands". It's unfortunate that people get in wrecks caused by the holes they are trying to cover with tiedowns and never realize the problem was caused by them in the first place. There are some team roping horses that benefit from using a tiedown to help them pull harder but for most disipline a tiedown is just a side-effect of poor training and horsemanship.


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## Spastic_Dove

Kevin, you said it well. 
I rarely see or hear of anyone who knows how to use a tie down and what its purpose is. Id your horse is rearing, throwing his head, etc a tie down is not the answer. There are good uses for tie downs, unfortunately none of the ones I have seen so far count. 
Training will solve those problems you are having.


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## Sunny06

If your horse's head is hanging in the air, you don't continue to run him. You _fix_ the problem. So why is there even a such thing as a tie down?

I totally don't get that about barrel racers.


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## StormyBlues

I definatly agree with Kevin! I see people running around XC with standing and running martingales, not knowing how to use them. Yes I agree that some horses might need them, but only when said horse can be controlled anyway and they are just a precaution. I don't agree with tie-downs, they just don't sit well with me


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## buddy09

well the people we bought the horse from said just to use a tie down but at the show where she did that it was the first time she ever rear


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## Tasia

I agree with Kevin. Tie downs are just a cheap way of covering up a problem if your horse flips his head up you have to take it back to the basics.
Tasia


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## wild_spot

> but only when said horse can be controlled anyway and they are just a precaution.


^ That is the exact situation with my little arab.


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## Kansasbarrelracer

Agreed with members posts, especially kevins. Thats why I never ever run or even ride with a tie down


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## Sunny06

wild_spot said:


> ^ That is the exact situation with my little arab.


...And Simon  He just has it on so he knows it's on. It's on so loose he could get away with anything.


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## wild_spot

Ditto!


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## qtrhrsecrazy

kevinshorses said:


> with every tiedown or set of training forks they should sell a t-shirt that says "i don't know how to use my hands". It's unfortunate that people get in wrecks caused by the holes they are trying to cover with tiedowns and never realize the problem was caused by them in the first place. There are some team roping horses that benefit from using a tiedown to help them pull harder but for most disipline a tiedown is just a side-effect of poor training and horsemanship.


*amen!!*


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## Spastic_Dove

Is this the same horse that can't walk on a nice loose rein?

It doesn't matter what the previous owners said. If your horse is rearing or flinging their head, you need to fix it through training, not a tie down.


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## chesterh

OK, so I honestly believe that I rarely of anything of value to say but this is an interesting little story. I had a REALLY nice barrel horse I bought as a cheap prospect. I put him into training with my trainer at the time (he was 5) and she put a tie down on him. He was just ****y, off balance, and inverting constantly. When I moved to go to college I put him into training with a different woman in my college town and when she was done he ran with NO tiedown, comfortably, and happily. I honestly believe, also, that its a training issue. I'm not an expert first hand but I've seen the results of proper training vs. quick fixes.

Oh, and apparently standing tie downs are like a requirment to have at barrel races. I was working at a small rodeo here this weekend and EVERY SINGLE barrel racer (10-12) had a tie down. Just a thought.


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## BuckOff41570

I have to agree with Kevin. Granted, my horse uses a tiedown while running. But I don't like them. I see more people say, if your horse throws his head, rears, shakes his face...throw a tiedown on him. It's a stupid novice mistake. Same goes for training forks, if you use them, you should only have to use them once or twice. I think that they just simplify the message going to the horse. I can get a horse to break at the poll without it, but I'd rather just make it easier on both of us and show him what I'm talking about. Even if I don't ride him in it. 
Now, my tiedown is a twisted wire tiedown. Hate it. But my horse will get his nose out a bit too much in the rate, so the tiedown does work to just keep him in check. He will be gradually weaned away from it as he ages. He is not a rearer, head flipper, or trouble maker. His normal riding is a snaffle and split reins and he does, 100%, go around like a reiner. If he throws his head, it's because I asked for too much at once, or am not asking clearly enough.

I think with all gadgets...despite the fact that they arent the ONLY way of doing something...if your going to use them, use them as intelligently as you can. There are NO quick fixes.


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## BuckOff41570

chesterh said:


> Oh, and apparently standing tie downs are like a requirment to have at barrel races. I was working at a small rodeo here this weekend and EVERY SINGLE barrel racer (10-12) had a tie down. Just a thought.


I honestly believe they just don't know any better. When I was little and would go to a barrel race...EVERY rider wore a tiedown. Some of which were adjusted so loosely that they were just decoration and some of which were so tight the poor horse became clostrophobic. Education is everything when it comes to horses and equipment. Most of those kids simply don't have that knowledgable person to look up to.


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## buddy09

spastic dove, this is not the same horse that can't walk on a loose rein, this one of the ones that my dad bought cheap and trained, but i got to compete with her.


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## Honeysuga

Yeah, I agree tie downs are way over abused by bad riders. I mostly see used to make insecure novice riders feel better when riding an ill trained animal. I really think all young barrel racers should have to take a class about proper training and care of barrel horses and proper competition etiquette and then they should have to pass a test or something before being allowed to compete. I think that would seriously cut down on the abuse of barrel horses you see at almost every show.

Tiedowns, just like every other piece of equipment are very good training tools when used in the proper situation. But I see them abused more than any other crutch out there. It is sad that people would rather crank a horses head down and tie it there instead of properly training it to do the job it is supposed to do in a safe, comfortable, controlled manner.


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## QHDragon

With every sport people are looking for the quick fix to solve a hole in their training. I agree that if you need to use a tie-down on your horse you need to step back and evaluate why you are using the tie-down in the first place and then just go and fix the problem.


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## kevinshorses

Honeysuga said:


> Tiedowns, just like every other piece of equipment are very good training tools when used in the proper situation.


*Tiedowns are not training equipment.* They will not teach a horse anything but to lean into them and be heavy on the forehand.


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## Spastic_Dove

Well then I would suggest NOT using a tie down or anything else to control her head so that you don't end up with another jiggy hot headed horse with holes in his training.


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## QHDragon

Don't tie downs usually make the horse get really muscled on the underside of their neck? Maybe this is just an urban legend, but it makes sense when you think about it.


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## kevinshorses

QHDragon said:


> Don't tie downs usually make the horse get really muscled on the underside of their neck?


They might develop some muscle from constantly pushing on the tiedown but that isn't a good way to get your horse fit.


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## Honeysuga

**Tiedowns are not training equipment.* They will not teach a horse anything but to lean into them and be heavy on the forehand.*

Kevin- Oh, thanks for clearing up that bit of ignorance for me, I have just always heard tie downs used as an aide to teach a horse to break at the poll. I have never used one in my training so I didn't know if it was true or not. 

So it goes from my training aide category to the bad riding/training crutch box  .


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## sillybunny11486

What do people mean "breaking at the poll"? Is this about keeping a horse from poking his nose out? 

I dont think a tie down is much different then a martingale right? Except I believe tie downs are suposed to be tighter. I had my first horse in a martingale, because thats what the trainer told me to do (I was like 12.) I moved to a new barn and used a new trainer. He actually resisted LESS without the martingale. 

Ive herd people that put horses in their stalls tied down with all their tack on, for maybe an hour or so, for several sessions to "train them". I think this is part of the reason we see so many horses behind the bit. I refuse to buy a horse who dosent move his neck above his withers. Id rather have my horse be responsive then just kind of hanging there.


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## BuckOff41570

sillybunny11486 said:


> What do people mean "breaking at the poll"? Is this about keeping a horse from poking his nose out?
> 
> I dont think a tie down is much different then a martingale right? Except I believe tie downs are suposed to be tighter. I had my first horse in a martingale, because thats what the trainer told me to do (I was like 12.) I moved to a new barn and used a new trainer. He actually resisted LESS without the martingale.
> 
> Ive herd people that put horses in their stalls tied down with all their tack on, for maybe an hour or so, for several sessions to "train them". I think this is part of the reason we see so many horses behind the bit. I refuse to buy a horse who dosent move his neck above his withers. Id rather have my horse be responsive then just kind of hanging there.


No. A tiedown and a martingale ARE NOT the same. With a martingale you can apply pressure, then release as the horse does right. A tiedown applies the same amount/type of pressure constantly. No give and take. 

Break at the poll to me is a horse that wont resist to them bit. I want the to drop their head and give their nose. There is a HUGE difference between a horse that gives to the bit and a horse that evades one.


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## mom2pride

I don't care for tie downs or martingales; I do use draw and side reins while training from the ground, but only long enough to help said horse to travel in a decent frame. 

Tie Downs and Martingales are often used 'just' to keep a horses head down. This isn't always the case, but in my experience it usually is. 

I have gamed every one of the horses I have owned, and never have used a tie down, and my horses were quite competitive. 

I do like mix and matching color leg wraps, although usually it's just two colors, on opposite front and hind legs.


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## mom2pride

QHDragon said:


> Don't tie downs usually make the horse get really muscled on the underside of their neck? Maybe this is just an urban legend, but it makes sense when you think about it.


Yes, a tie down usually does do that, but it's only because the horse is only using that 'side' of his neck; he won't muscle out over the top, or even each side of his neck, only the bottom.


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## MacabreMikolaj

As a note, you NEVER want a horse muscling the underside of the neck. The muscles should be through the topline, and the underside of the neck should be toned but soft and flexible. The more muscle a horse develops under the neck, the more difficult it will be for the horse to ever work properly through the topline.

I use a tiedown on my Arab mare at times. On group trail rides or gaming events, yes. It's hardly strapping her nose down though - she just likes to fling that pretty little Arab head into the sky and run like crazy. She runs like that in the pasture, so any tips for teaching her to run with her head down would be great :lol: I can work her in an arena, or do any gaits with her and have her decently rounded and listening to me but when she goes full out, those tippy ears tickle my nose!

I agree though, I dislike seeing these gadgets as "second nature". I have no intention of ever using one on my Paint filly. The only reason I ever use one on my Arab mare is to keep her calm and level headed. Half the time it's not even into effect - only when she brings her head to a severe enough height to warrant it. I prefer avoiding gadgets at all costs.


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## Hope2B

Yes they can get back up to their feet after falling(if it's not to tight)


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## dashygirl

BuckOff41570 said:


> *I honestly believe they just don't know any better.* When I was little and would go to a barrel race...EVERY rider wore a tiedown.


I agree. I've seen plenty of people who were never told otherwise and were never informed about proper training methods, or never worked with people who knew what they were doing.


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## Honeysuga

buddy09 said:


> I was just wondering if your useing a tie down in barrels and your horse falls will it be able to get back to it's feet?


I"m just curious as to why you posted this question...

So I am guessing from what you posted on another thread(or was it this one??) about one of your horses having a tie down on and flipping over and such, are you worried another of your horses is going to fall or freak out and flip over? 

Do you use tie downs on your horses when you barrel race? Why?

If you are worried your horse is going to freak and flip or fall down you probably are doing something wrong and need to re asses your training or the horses suitability for your riding skill level...


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## buddy09

Nope she was the only one and i only used it because the person i bought her from told me that she needed it. I didn't realize that she would do that because she never threw her head or anything just used it because they said she was used to it.


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## Spastic_Dove

Since you don't ever need a tie down, I imagine you've since stopped riding the horse in a tie down, yes?


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## Painted Hotrod

I use a tie down on my horses that toss, and throw their head alot when they want to be stubborn.. and when I run barrels.

But, I don't use a martingale.. Never even owned one of those things.
I don't draw my tie down tight. Just enough to put a little pressure on them when they toss their head up to high. I don't abuse them..
I don't use them for training either.. 

Am I doing anything wrong there?

Anyways..
They can get back up with a tie down.
If they so happen that they can't get up?
You have in WAY to tight..

Umm, ok I just read you last post, sorry..
If she doesn't seem to need one.. Don't use it..


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## Honeysuga

^^ Actually, yes you are doing wrong by using one to prevent your horse from tossing its head. Head tossing is usually a sign of anxiety or physical discomfort. They are not just being stubborn, they need to be trained better, stubbornness has nothing to do with head tossing.


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## wild_spot

> ^^ Actually, yes you are doing wrong by using one to prevent your horse from tossing its head. Head tossing is usually a sign of anxiety or physical discomfort. They are not just being stubborn, they need to be trained better, stubbornness has nothing to do with head tossing.


So you think that no horse will ever toss it's head for any reason execpt anxiety or discomfort? Sorry, but that just isn't true.


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## Painted Hotrod

He was vet checked, and everything.
It wasn't hurting him..

His head tossing is a was habit.

I used it for the same reason MacabreMikolaj did on their Arab.
If I didn't have it on him He would toss, and bolt.


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## Sunny06

They're out there! Simon MUST use a standing martingale even though it's on so loose he could do anything he wants.


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## Painted Hotrod

I completely understand that Sunny..
If my horse Jaybird didn't have a tie down (wasn't tied down tight at all)
He would get out of control, and he was 100% sound, and healthy.


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## Honeysuga

^^ Exactly what I am saying guys, you don't have the control necessary to ride without it. the horse isn't trained enough to not need one and the rider feels more comfortable with it on. Exactly what I was saying.

wild-spot-Why else then??? To see the pretty clouds or because they are punk rocker horses??:twisted:
I never said it won't for ANY reason, I said USUALLY won't. And that is a completely correct statement. They usually don't toss their heads without reason, not because they are stubborn, but because there is an issue that causes them to act in that way.


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## Painted Hotrod

You know they make tie downs, and martingales for a reason.
They don't make them to look pretty hanging in a tack room..

He tossed him head just because I was making him do something he just plain didn't want to do, and fought, and bolted.

Anyway, I'm not fighting over this..


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## wild_spot

> Why else then??? To see the pretty clouds or because they are punk rocker horses??:twisted:
> I never said it won't for ANY reason, I said USUALLY won't. And that is a completely correct statement. They usually don't toss their heads without reason, not because they are stubborn, but because there is an issue that causes them to act in that way.


Because they are built like that? (Arabs) Because they are trying a new way to react to pressure? Because they have learnt that head tossing leads to less contact/less work/less something?

No need for sarcasm - I restrained myself in my post so I appreciate the same in return. The way you worded your post implied that anybody who uses a head check/martingale has an axious or uncomfortable horse and is disregarding training in favour of a quick fix. While this is certainly true of some people - It is nowhere near the truth about everybody who uses them.

My arab is a perfect example - He is sound in mind and body, his saddle fits, he has had his teeth done, he is happy in his bit (a snaffle) he is very well educated - Yet when others ride him I put him in a martingale, very loosely. I can tell you that he is 100% NOT in any pain or discomfort and he is not anxious - He is just an arab, and sometimes flips his head up. The martingale has a physcological effect - When it's on, he doesn't do it, and it never comes into use.

Do you think that having a loose martingale on a horse to protect riders and which doesn't actually come into play at all is doing wrong by my horse?


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## Honeysuga

painted hodrod- Ok, I wont either. Btw, Hotrod(youe avatar right?) has a beautiful face  

wild-spot, Not a bit of that was sarcastic, maybe light hearted joking, but not mean by any means. I am sorry it came off that way everyone. And I want to make it clear that I meant no negativity towards anyone, I was stating a black and white fact as harsh as it may have seemed, so be it.


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## wild_spot

*Forgot to add - I have seen many horses who are similar - Arabs being the main culprit. It is often said that Arabs actually do like to look at the sky - They are built for high head carriage and do it in the paddock - It isn't just a trait that shows up under saddle.


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## Painted Hotrod

Thank you 
Hotrod knows he's a stud muffin, haha :lol:

Well said wild_spot..


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## wild_spot

> ^^ Exactly what I am saying guys, you don't have the control necessary to ride without it. the horse isn't trained enough to not need one and the rider feels more comfortable with it on. Exactly what I was saying.


Missed this bit - I can ride my arab without a head check/martingale with no worries - Because I know him and know if he is going to flip that pretty little head and prevent it before it happens. Other riders don't know him as well, and don't have that firesight - So the martingale is for their protection (he flips his head up fully - If the rider is forward it can hit them in the face).


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## Painted Hotrod

My horse actually flipped his head, and busted me in the face.
Since then I used to tie down up to the day I sold him.

Not everytime, but when I ran barrels, and trail rides sometimes..


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## Honeysuga

Gotcha, I understand why you do it, it just seemed like you were arguing with me.. hehe, maybe im just grumpy tonight.
So I have to ask has anyone gotten a bloody nose from him? hehe

**oops you posted a few secs before me hotrod...so how bout you wild-spot?
I only as because y moms poorly trained mare popped me right in the nose once, oooh boy was I giving mom hell for that...


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## wild_spot

I don't think so! A few sore noses/chins though, lol.


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## Painted Hotrod

Mine actually broke my nose, haha..
He got a few good swings in before he got a good one in him, and popped me when he threw me forward all at the same time.

Since then he wore a tie down, and never had another problem..
He tossed his head once with the tie down, and never did it again while he was wearing it.


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## I love Arabs

Tie Down = Cover up.


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## Painted Hotrod

What does that mean, I Love Arabs?


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## I love Arabs

put the tie down on, Oh look good horsey
take the tie down off
Look out back to square one.


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## Painted Hotrod

That's kind of the reason of a tie down...
So, the horse is a 'good horsey' ..

Also, for the safety of the horse, and rider...
It's hardly a 'cover up' ? :-|


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## Honeysuga

Oh, but it is... ^^ Bandy words all you like, a tie down is a crutch and a cover up. PERIOD.


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## BuckOff41570

Agreed. It sounds like the way you use one is a prime example of covering up a problem. If a horse throws his head to that extreme, he's evading bit pressure at all costs. Perhaps never taught to except the bit properly. Or never taught what the pressure of the bit means. A lot of people throw a bit in a horse's mouth and expect them to automatically know what it means. It has to be taught...just like anything else. Aside from training issues, physical issues could DEFINATELY contribute to bit evasion. Needing a float, abcess... in a case like yours, I couldnt justify a tiedown.


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## Maverick101

The problem is people use Tie downs because they are ignorant in the ACTUAL purpose of the tie down is. 
The true reason for a tie down, is for performance horses (ie barrels, roping) need the tie down to brace against when running patterns.

But alot of people dont know this so, figure hey my horse throws its head, he needs a tie down.

Tie downs do have a purpose so its not a bad piece of equioment, its how its used that is the problem


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## Painted Hotrod

I use it when I race, or when I am going to use him in something that may cause him to get very excited..

If it is a cover up of the problem.
Then how do suggest you fix the head tossing?
If the horse is just fine (teeth floated, vet checked, ect.)?


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## kevinshorses

Maverick101 said:


> The problem is people use Tie downs because they are ignorant in the ACTUAL purpose of the tie down is.
> The true reason for a tie down, is for performance horses (ie barrels, roping) need the tie down to brace against when running patterns.
> 
> But alot of people dont know this so, figure hey my horse throws its head, he needs a tie down.
> 
> Tie downs do have a purpose so its not a bad piece of equioment, its how its used that is the problem


A tiedown does nothing that good horsemanship and collection can't do. If people were not ignorant of good horsemanship there would be no reason for tiedowns. Why do barrel horses need tiedowns to run a pattern but not reining horses? Training and horseemanship is the answer. If you need your tiedown because your horses head comes up when you do fast work then you should quit doing fast work untill you get your horse better trained and learn to balance ofrf the reins. If you want to know why your horse needs a tiedaown of throws it's head, put both hands on your saddlehorn and look straight down. Your hands are the reason.


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## Honeysuga

*Thank you Kevin*, Nice to know I'm not the only big meanie on here who thinks tie downs are nothing but a crutch and an example of bad horsemanship...

I find it humorous when people feel the necessity to try to convince me that they NEED the tie down, or that they dont really need it but it is nice to have. Then they go on to say that that doesn't mean they are using it as a crutch... Especially when they will come out and say that the horse has caused them physical harm with their "harmless habit"...


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## wild_spot

^ Wow, you did a 180 - I thought you said a few pages earlier that you can understand why I use a martingale on my boy, and now you are condemning everyone who uses them.



> Agreed. It sounds like the way you use one is a prime example of covering up a problem. If a horse throws his head to that extreme, he's evading bit pressure at all costs. Perhaps never taught to except the bit properly. Or never taught what the pressure of the bit means. A lot of people throw a bit in a horse's mouth and expect them to automatically know what it means. It has to be taught...just like anything else. Aside from training issues, physical issues could DEFINATELY contribute to bit evasion. Needing a float, abcess... *in a case like yours,* I couldnt justify a tiedown.


How about mine? I can ride my pony fine without it - Which seems to debunk the idea that it is used as a crutch or cover up. I use it purely and simply to assist other riders who use him but don't know him like I do - A safety thing for them. He has been checked numerous times for soreness - Had his saddle professionally fitted - Been treated by chiro's and body workers - Had his teeth floated recently - And is very well trained. It is just a habit he has when he is caught unawares by an aid - He is an Arab, it is easy and natural for him to flip his head.


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## sillybunny11486

> He has been checked numerous times for soreness - Had his saddle professionally fitted - Been treated by chiro's and body workers - Had his teeth floated recently - And is very well trained. *It is just a habit he has when he is caught unawares by an aid* - He is an Arab, it is easy and natural for him to flip his head.


Then people who dont have soft hands shouldnt ride your horse. Ive never met a truely genuinly well trained horse need any kind of aids besides a bridle and saddle. If he acts up hes not desensatized enough, has a bit that is too harsh, or someone isnt using their hands well.


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## wild_spot

It isn't 'acting up' - It is a reaction to being caught unawares - Like a person might say 'Hey!' when tapped on the shoulder by someone they weren't expecting. He flips his head once - Then gets on with his job. It isn't people with hard hands -I would not let anyone who I didn't approve of ride my horse. It is simply the fact that they are learning - Learning how to cue him properly, learning how to half halt so he know a cue is coming. I also don't see a martingale as an aid - Especially on Wildey, it is loose enough that is only effects the reins when he is head is getting close to vertical - And when it is on that never happens to it DOESN'T come into effect. He is in your average eggbut bridoon - I always ridden by people I personally vet before they ride him. 



> If he acts up hes not desensatized


'

A 'truly genuinly' well-trained horse should NOT be desensitized to the bit - You want them to listen to every tiny aid that you give. He IS genuinly well educated - Hard to prove over the net but he has taken me to wins in at least 5 different disciplines and is now doing the same with new riders while teaching them at the same time.

Curious - How would you combat his occasional head-flip without a martingale?


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## Honeysuga

No, I didn't do a "180", I said that the reason you gave for using a tie down was exactly what I was talking about, but I was being nice about it...

And if your horse is paying attention to its rider it shouldn't be caught "unawares". Unless you are hand noisy and constantly bumping his mouth there should be no problem if he was trained to carry and respond to the bit properly.


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## sillybunny11486

You should do anything to cause a reaction like this in a well trained horse. You should imagine your hands holding full teacups with a platter on top. If youve caused horse to flip his head up you've already spilled the teacups.


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## Sunny06

wild_spot said:


> Curious - How would you combat his occasional head-flip without a martingale?


Am looking forward to hearing a REAL answer to this, rather than a retort like a select few find necessary.


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## wild_spot

*Sigh* you don't seem to be understanding. 



> No, I didn't do a "180", I said that the reason you gave for using a tie down was exactly what I was talking about, but I was being nice about it...


So what exactly do you think i'm covering up?



> And if your horse is paying attention to its rider it shouldn't be caught "unawares". Unless you are hand noisy and constantly bumping his mouth there should be no problem if he was trained to carry and respond to the bit properly.


The way he was trained to the bit is exactly why this happens. I don't want my horse to respond to only the bit - I aim for my aids to be a combined effort between legs, seat, body and bit. He is trained to listen to body, seat and leg cues as a pre-cursor to the bit - Basically eliminating the need to use the bit for an iad in most cases. However, when people are learning, they don't have the co-ordination to apply the correct aids in the correct order at the correct time - So he is caught unawares by the aid from the bit, because he is trained to the more refined use of the body, seat and legs as aids. I would say he is better and more highly trained than a horse who is trained to accept any and only bit aids.



> *You should do anything* to cause a reaction like this in a well trained horse. You should imagine your hands holding full teacups with a platter on top. If youve caused horse to flip his head up you've already spilled the teacups. :smile:


I'm guessing you meant you shouldn't? If that's the case - As I stated above, it isn't hard hands that cause him to flip his head. It is simply when he is not cued with body, seat and legs BEFORE the bit - Kind of like jumping straight into a swimming pool as opposed to easing in. It gives you a shock for a split second, and then you get used to it and swim on. 

He is actually one of the best teaching horses for this exact reason - He won't give you 100% until you ask him 100% correctly. I don't want him to become desensitized to the bit so that he will accept any and all pressure/aids that are put to him without question.

Again, either of you - How would you combat his occasinal head toss when caught unawares, without a martingale and without lessening his sensitivity to the riders aids? I have yet to hear a solution.


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## Painted Hotrod

Sunny06 said:


> Am looking forward to hearing a REAL answer to this, rather than a retort like a select few find necessary.


As do I ..
I can't explain myself very well over the computer, but my question is about the same is wild_spot's ..

I'm not heavy on the bit.
He is healthy.
He just tosses his head occasionally..

I know I'm not doing anything wrong on my horse.

Anyways, my question is similar..
I don't want an arguement.
I want a simple non-rude answer..


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## wild_spot

> Am looking forward to hearing a REAL answer to this, rather than a retort like a select few find necessary.


Exactly :]


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## Sunny06

Truth is, they don't know. They just find it entertaining to bash that of everyone else's methods in order to make their's appear superior.


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## wild_spot

I would welcome anything that would 'cure' Wildey of his occasional head flipping - It really isn't something that I or anyone else who rides him enjoys. But no-one I have met throughout my riding career, including many, many highly experienced trainers, riders, handlers etc. Have ever been able to give me something that has worked.


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## Sunny06

It's a mysteryyyy...!


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## MacabreMikolaj

*sidles over to wild_spot*

Agreed. It would be nice hearing an actual answer. I have no problems controlling my Arab without a tiedown - heck, I raced her bareback with just her hackamore. It just takes a few extra strides to stop because she's busy flipping her nose up when she wants to keep going. I can walk, trot and canter in an arena without any problems, and I don't use anything on her. She goes in a normal snaffle for any disciplines, or sometimes her hackamore. But as soon as she gets amped up, she does her pretty little Arab jig with her head up. As stated, it's exactly how she runs in the pasture. 

I quite frankly fail to see the harm in using a loosely adjusted tiedown for certain events. It enables me to use a soft snaffle on her when GAMING (oh lordy, the horror!) because I'm able to keep her mind on me. A chiropractor recently came out to look at Shay-las mare and was telling us how enorphins are released for a horse when they go about with their head up - the inverted pressure on a particular part of their neck gives them a feeling of being "high", hence why so many horses become uncontrollable when they have their heads up in the air.

If a tiedown is just a crutch, I'm really confused what a bridle is then. In the end, it seems to be the same situation - a device to enable control. I'm not strapping her nose to her chest, I'm only preventing her from bringing her head to her "natural" level and encouraging her to listen to me which enables me to use the softest bit available as opposed to some shanked monstrosity that 75% of people don't have a clue how to use.

Case in point = I hardly see it as a crutch if she can hold her head like this and have it completely slack:










However, when she gets excited...it just prevents her from tipping her actual nose to the stars and going "YAY, GALLOP, LET'S GO MOM!"


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## wild_spot

^ Exactly. Don't have any riding pics on this computer - But here is Wildey standing and you can see how loose the martingale is. Esepcially on Arabvs - They are naturally inclined to flip that head!


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## wild_spot

Oops, forgot the pic!


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## Painted Hotrod

Wild_spot, Macabremikolaj, and Sunny ...
This is what I've been trying to explain...
Once again I couldn't explain it right..

What works for one horse, may not work for another..
Everyone has a different way of handling things..
I agree with the 3 I mentioned above


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## Maverick101

kevinshorses said:


> A tiedown does nothing that good horsemanship and collection can't do. If people were not ignorant of good horsemanship there would be no reason for tiedowns. Why do barrel horses need tiedowns to run a pattern but not reining horses? Training and horseemanship is the answer. If you need your tiedown because your horses head comes up when you do fast work then you should quit doing fast work untill you get your horse better trained and learn to balance ofrf the reins. If you want to know why your horse needs a tiedaown of throws it's head, put both hands on your saddlehorn and look straight down. Your hands are the reason.


Because a reining horse is not turning around a barrel at Mock 4. Properly trained barrel horses do not toss their head up...they "pop" their head forward as they turn, and the tie down helps as a brace so they can use as leverage to help spin their hind end around.


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## kevinshorses

wild_spot said:


> ^ Exactly. Don't have any riding pics on this computer - But here is Wildey standing and you can see how loose the martingale is. Esepcially on Arabvs - They are naturally inclined to flip that head!


A running martingale is a training tool. I don't use one but I'm not opposed to it. As far as high-end barrel horses, I have little experience with them. Most people that chase barrels are not high level competitors and are just dragging thier horses around the pattern. As a boy I showed in 4-h and part of that was running barrels. I beat many girls half my size on fancy barrel horses because I could ride my horse and he was very broke. He deffinatly was not fast. We also did pole bending and in two years we never failed to place and never knocked over a pole because he could change leads and I could ride him right where I wanted him.


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## Painted Hotrod

Horse are different.
You may need different tack, ect. for different horses..

I also know a quarter horse who ran barrels, and didn't seem very fast at all, but he went smoothly through the pattern, and placed everytime with 16,17+ seconds. Like I said all horses are different in many many ways.


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## Maverick101

Sorry, I should clarify my last post.
Ideally you want your horse to be able to use his hind end to propel himself around the barrel. However, in younger horses, or horses who (like those that find it hard to switch leads, no matter how much you school them) are more forward going around barrels, is when the tie down comes into play, and helps the horse brace around the barrel.

I didn't mean that it is ideal for a barrel horse to brace, but the tie down is their in the event that the horse needs it.

I personally don't use the Tie down when practicing or training for barrels, and only use in in competition, as the runs are that much faster, and the horse is that much more keyed up.

I do think there is a time and place for the tie down, as is for spurs, crops, running martingales, german martingales, leverage bits, flashes etc etc.

There are many training aids that are over used/abused, and as people here say used as a crutch...however that is not to say that someone who uses one in specific situations is a bad horse person and cant ride. Of course in some instances this holds true. But when they have expelled all other options, these artificial aids can make their riding experience a more enjoyable one.


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## Honeysuga

See, here's the thing. I never once said a negative thing about people who use tie downs, just plain facts.

The people who have argued with me over this have each described exactly what I am talking about with their own situations. 

Just because I do not sugar coat it or add any extra fluff, people keep getting their panties in a twist thinking I an calling them bad riders, when in fact I am just saying that they need a tie down to ride more happily because of whatever situation. i am not being rude or mean, just blunt and no nonsense about it.
*
A note on barrel racing and tiedowns-*
**And If a young horse needs a tie down and has to use it to propel himself with his front end, he shouldn't be racing yet, he should be at home in the arena training until he can use his rear to move.

A horse should not brace around a barrel, they should arc slightly, lift the ribcage and shift their weight to take them around. This can only be done with a proper rate before even getting to a barrel, or you do indeed get the horse bracing because he has not slowed enough to be able to manuver properly. 

This is a case of speed before precision and balance. This is a case of using a tie down where training is needed instead. and a perfect example of what everyone has been trying to tell you who desperately defend your tiedowns, especially when you barrel. 

If your horse was properly trained you would not need a tie down because they are so amped, you might want to refer to the barrel racers thread in the western riding section for some tips (hehe I posted there too... jsut for you).


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## wild_spot

> when in fact I am just saying that they need a tie down to ride more happily because of whatever situation.


*BUT I DON'T*. Do you not understand this? I have stated it many times now.


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## wild_spot

Me putting a martingale on for other riders is the EXACT situation of putting grass reins on a pony for a kid to ride.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

Honeysuga said:


> See, here's the thing. I never once said a negative thing about people who use tie downs, just plain facts.


Where are these facts? I've seen opinions, yes, but no facts.

Opinions...



> Bandy words all you like, a tie down is a crutch and a cover up. PERIOD.





> Exactly what I am saying guys, you don't have the control necessary to ride without it. the horse isn't trained enough to not need one and the rider feels more comfortable with it on. Exactly what I was saying.


 Have you seen the horses in question? Or is it your "educated opinion" again?



> Actually, yes you are doing wrong by using one to prevent your horse from tossing its head. Head tossing is usually a sign of anxiety or physical discomfort. They are not just being stubborn, they need to be trained better, *stubbornness has nothing to do with head tossing.*


Opinion again, and have you worked with arabs? They hold their head up as breed characteristic, so yes when excited they will bring it up.



> *Tiedowns, just like every other piece of equipment are very good training tools when used in the proper situation*.


So what is the "proper situation, if wild_spot's isn't?



> **Tiedowns are not training equipment.* They will not teach a horse anything but to lean into them and be heavy on the forehand.*


 Contradiction much?


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## MacabreMikolaj

*sighs* I'm still not hearing any tips on how to avoid the Arab head from tipping up when galloping. Here are some pics if you're not quite convinced - it's their natural headset, and I'd love to avoid the use of a tiedown if someone would be wonderful enough to give some tips on how to prevent this in Arabian horses.

Pics of Zierra in the pasture:



















I don't know how many people have ridden Arabs, but trying to get a good stop on them from a full gallop is a little difficult when they get that excited. I suppose some reining work could help her, but I'm sadly lacking in the funds necessary to hire a trainer to help me with that. I've been self taught virtually my entire life. The gallop is the only time I have issues, and even then, I CAN stop her with little to no problems. It just takes a few strides extra of her flipping her nose before she goes "Fine, if you say so, I guess the fun can end."


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## kevinshorses

MacabreMikolaj said:


> *sighs* I'm still not hearing any tips on how to avoid the Arab head from tipping up when galloping. Here are some pics if you're not quite convinced - it's their natural headset, and I'd love to avoid the use of a tiedown if someone would be wonderful enough to give some tips on how to prevent this in Arabian horses.


TO avoid any horses head from tipping up when galloping there are a few things you can do. Make sure that your horse is breaking softly at the poll at the walk trot and canter. Realize that the brace you are seeing at the gallop is there at the slower gaits it's just not as noticable. Work on getting better stops at slower gaits and this will create better stops at higher speeds. By better I mean softer and with the proper frame (broken at the poll and stopping on the hindquarters). Just because a horse gallops in the pature with it's head in the air doesn't mean they should do so under saddle. A horse in the pasture is only caring its own wieght so the need for collection is minimized. When a rider is added the horse needs to round it's back and shift some wieght to the hindquarters to compensate for the rider this can't happen without breaking at the poll (vertical flexion).


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## myheartscaptivator

Maverick101 said:


> The problem is people use Tie downs because they are ignorant in the ACTUAL purpose of the tie down is.
> The true reason for a tie down, is for performance horses (ie barrels, roping) need the tie down to brace against when running patterns.
> 
> But alot of people dont know this so, figure hey my horse throws its head, he needs a tie down.
> 
> Tie downs do have a purpose so its not a bad piece of equioment, its how its used that is the problem


Thank god you said this - i was reading this post and wondered if anyone would say it.
My barrel horse has no head issues, you could run her in a snaffle with nothing else, but when I want her to run good I do put a tie down on her to help her balance. This way when they're rating they have something to push against to slow down and turn around the barrel. When some horses go so fast it is hard for them to rate themselves off of their own balance, but tie downs really help your horses balance. Most horses, though, it just depends on the horses needs. They all work so differently and need help in different things.


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## Spastic_Dove

Personally, i am opposed to tie downs being used for any purpose other than what Maverick is explaining which is the intended purpose of a tie down. 

I've ridden arabs and they were naturally high headed, but I didn't ever have a reason to try and change their headset. Yes I rode them in barrels/speed events as well as pleasure riding. I never had a head to head collision with a horse because of their headset. 

Ideally, yes a barrel horse will travel with a lifted ribcage, turning over his haunches and using his hind end to propel themselves forward. I see nothing wrong with taking a properly trained horse (Who is worked at home free of gadgets) and giving him a well-adjusted tie down for competition. Same with roping horses. They don't have to use it -- A lot of them don't but it's there, and it's not a crutch. 

Unfortunatly, what I do have a problem with (and what I think most of this "debate" is about) is ignorant riders and untrained horses using tie downs because their horse rears, is hollowed out, has no idea how to travel, and is a freight train. For that, the solution is training.


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## Countrygal892000

> ...And Simon  He just has it on so he knows it's on. It's on so loose he could get away with anything.


Then why even have one on? Train him not to do it so you don't even need one... The other thing you need to realize with tie downs is that if a horse falls or is scratching and a tie down is too loose, his leg can go right through it and then you have a big mess... stick with the basics... Train your horse, use a saddle, bridle, and reins... That is all you need... If you have a good horse you don't need all this fancy "cover-up" tack...


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## Kentucky

kevinshorses said:


> With every tiedown or set of training forks they should sell a t-shirt that says "I don't know how to use my hands". It's unfortunate that people get in wrecks caused by the holes they are trying to cover with tiedowns and never realize the problem was caused by them in the first place. There are some team roping horses that benefit from using a tiedown to help them pull harder but for most disipline a tiedown is just a side-effect of poor training and horsemanship.


I am guilty of that, I bought a set martingales over the summer due to the fact. My horse was lifting his head and turning around toward the barn and I didn't know what to do. i rode with it a few times, until I learned what do to to correct this problem. It was a Crutch and I knew it was went i bought it. But it did give me the time to learn what was wrong with my riding. 



How about mine? I can ride my pony fine without it - Which seems to debunk the idea that it is used as a crutch or cover up. I use it purely and simply to assist other riders who use him but don't know him like I do - A safety thing for them. He has been checked numerous times for soreness - Had his saddle professionally fitted - Been treated by chiro's and body workers - Had his teeth floated recently - And is very well trained. It is just a habit he has when he is caught unawares by an aid - He is an Arab, it is easy and natural for him to flip his head.[/quote]

Your problem is different than most. And in that case it may have a real use.


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## Sunny06

Countrygal892000 said:


> Then why even have one on?


Ask _him_.


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## Sunny06

Honeysuga said:


> Just because I do not sugar coat it or add any extra fluff, people keep getting their panties in a twist thinking I an calling them bad riders, *when in fact I am just saying that they need a tie down to ride more happily because of whatever situation.*


This sentence makes NO sense to me. Now you're FOR tie-downs?

You must be one of those dipsticks from HC that think "blunt" is the way to go. You weren't being "blunt". You're being condesending; belittleing everyone you disagree with. There's a difference between "blunt" and downright condesending. If this is your idea of "blunt", go look it back up in the dictionary, because you are sadly mistaken.

I know I'm not the only one know's noticed this. 

[/snark]


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

Sunny06 said:


> Ask _him_.


You are not alone! Anytime my old horse wore vienna draw reins, they had to be on at LEAST hole 5. Even on hole 1, he would immediately drop his head and stretch. They had to be tight enough he wouldn't put a leg through them, and they were STILL to loose to actually be doing anything:lol:


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## Honeysuga

1dog3cats17rodents actually, you are 100% correct. After I posted that about the BEING training equipment, Kevin corrected me that they weren't. Being that he is an experienced horseman, I'm going to go with what he says on this.

And what is this the attack Sierra thread now?

Sunny06- No I never said that I am for them now, I was saying that the way I am wording everything I say keeps being taken negatively. I am saying that tie downs have no real use other than to make a rider feel safer or whatever reason(happier, more in control, ect.) when they ride, which is what people keep arguing saying that is not why they use them... But when they do explain why, the reason comes out as exactly what I said, but they still argue it.

And name calling? Really, how old are you? No I am not being condescending one bit, I never told a single person, "You are a bad rider for using a tie down" you need to get off my back already, I have not attacked one person yet for some reason I keep being attacked on here. where that heck do you come in in this thread anyway just to attack me? You have added nothing to this thread but attitude.


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## BuckOff41570

Now, now folks...let try to be civil towards each other.
Kevin, you are often right on several subjects. I agree with you for the most part on this one as well. I'm not an enthusiast of tiedowns, but use one. Not, because I NEED one, but because the horse that I purchased was taught how to run in one. As said before, he will be weaned away from it. Because he runs in one doesnt mean he's unproperly trained.
This is a horse who can go around like a reiner, roll back like a cutter, and collect up like a pleasure horse. He can counter arc at any gait and I can isolate any part of his body. He is, on all counts, a VERY well trained horse. Far better trained than most barrel horses out there. 
As far as a tiedown covering the rider's lack of supple hands...well that's not true in all cases either. 

So, there are always going to be instances where the "If you use a tiedown, you can't ride properly/have bad hands/have a badly trained horse" mindset.

To those that throw them on to avoid getting hit in the nose... it's a way of avoiding the problem and is plain and simply THE WRONG WAY TO USE THEM. That'll all there is to it. 
Because it isnt the purpose...doesnt mean that people will stop using them. People will do what they wish. 
So no need to get into an oober heated arguement or start to degrade or insult people that you dont know. 

I'll play devil's advocate here.


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## wild_spot

> To those that throw them on to avoid getting hit in the nose... it's a way of avoiding the problem and is plain and simply THE WRONG WAY TO USE THEM. That'll all there is to it.


I don't use a tiedown for this, but I do use a martingale. Instead of just saying it is wrong and horrible, why not offer a credible way to combat this without using a tiedown/martingale? Kevin is the ONLY person for far that has answered the repeated requests for other options.

I know I don't enjoy putting a martingale on my pony - It would make taking up a bunch less complicated if I didn't! And when I ride him, I don't. But NOT ONE PERSON has goven me ANY credible aid/solution to help stop him occasionally flipping his head with other riders. Please, all of you awesome horsemen who have never needed to employ a martingale, enlighten me! He is the ONLY horse I use one on - Which alone should tell you i'm not a martingale happy rider.

THANK YOU Kevin for actually answering the question that has been asked so many times!



> This is a horse who can go around like a reiner, roll back like a cutter, and collect up like a pleasure horse. He can counter arc at any gait and I can isolate any part of his body.


My pony who goes in rings can do all the above also - plus a good amount of dressage, jumping, lateral movements etc. He is also a very well trained pony.


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## wild_spot

Do all of you beleive that grass reins for a kid are a crutch and a cover up?


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## Spastic_Dove

^ I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with putting a tie down on so an unexperienced rider doesn't get unseated when messing around on someones horse like macrabes situation or to aide a child..but these are "crutches". However, using a crutch for these types of rider is usually a smarter idea than leaving them to their own devices. 

Its the stereotypical "game" riders that flail around the pattern on hot, gate sour horses we are mostly (or at least I am) worried about.


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## Honeysuga

Thank you spastic, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

I am sorry to anyone who thought I was being condescending or mean.


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## kevinshorses

No blanket statement covers everyone in every instance. There are exceptions to every rule but if you watch the average barrel racing you won't see very many exceptions.


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## wild_spot

> Thank you spastic, this is exactly what I was trying to say.


Good to know you don't think there is anything wrong with the way I am using the martingale. Or is that not what you were trying to say?


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## Sunny06

Honeysuga, take it easy. 

I asked what you meant by your statement. Don't believe I called you names, either (unless you're talking about when I referred to the "dipsticks" on HC). I didn't necessarilly mean YOU personally. Re-reading it, I could see how one could think that I called you a name. 



> You have added nothing to this thread but attitude.


So this isn't condesending, eh? I want an answer to my question and I haven't gotten it yet. All everyone wants to do is... gab about how we are soooo wrong for using a martingale so loose it could wrap around his neck thrice. Yes, I'm irritated. 

I don't know; maybe I took your posts wrong. But 95% of the ones I've read were, to say the least, irritable.

I apologize if this isn't the case.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Thank you kevinshorses.

I think more then a few people on this forum could learn to keep their mouths shut unless they can actually be bothered to HAVE helpful advice to back up their oh so insulting and condescending opinion.

Just another example of everyone having an answer and only one bothering to find out what the question is. I'd trust any horse that came out of kevinshorses hands.


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## wild_spot

^ Ditto.


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## Sunny06

kevinshorses said:


> TO avoid any horses head from tipping up when galloping there are a few things you can do. Make sure that your horse is breaking softly at the poll at the walk trot and canter. Realize that the brace you are seeing at the gallop is there at the slower gaits it's just not as noticable. Work on getting better stops at slower gaits and this will create better stops at higher speeds. By better I mean softer and with the proper frame (broken at the poll and stopping on the hindquarters). Just because a horse gallops in the pature with it's head in the air doesn't mean they should do so under saddle. A horse in the pasture is only caring its own wieght so the need for collection is minimized. When a rider is added the horse needs to round it's back and shift some wieght to the hindquarters to compensate for the rider this can't happen without breaking at the poll (vertical flexion).


Once again. Amazing  So do you think that practicing stopping and going is a good place to start? Before collection, I mean?


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## kevinshorses

Thank you ladies!! I hate to see a good thread shut down because someone called someone else a name and that someone thinks the first someone is being mean. Come on people lets all act like adults. 

I have used running martingales for people that needed help keeping thier horses head under control but I told them it was because they didn't ride well. I would consider putting a tie down on my kids horse if it would help them ride an otherwise suitable horse (very few suitable kids horses would need one). Many really succesful trainers use running martingales on every horse they ride. That's thier choice. I choose to take more time and not rely on a peice of equipment that is not legal in most competitions. If you need a tool to get done what you want then use it but realize that you're covering a hole in your riding and your horses training. If that is what you have to do then that's what you should do.


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## 3neighs

> I hate to see a good thread shut down because someone called someone else a name and that someone thinks the first someone is being mean. Come on people lets all act like adults.


Thank you Kevin. 

Please remember the Conscientious Etiquette Policy everyone:

*Please exercise what we call conscientious etiquette when you post. This means that you keep the objective of preserving the forum's friendly, fun, helpful environment in the forefront of your mind as you write your message.

If your post is nasty, condescending, rude, etc., regardless of how subtle, and whether shrouded in the form of opinion or otherwise, it is subject to be removed and your access to the Horse Forum may be restricted.*


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## kevinshorses

Sunny06 said:


> Once again. Amazing  So do you think that practicing stopping and going is a good place to start? Before collection, I mean?


 
Unless you have your horse soft enough to stop lightly with vertical flexion you won't have a chance at collection so you should definately get a workable stop first.


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## Sunny06

I called HC (a forum) a name. Not a poster. 

Thanks, Kevin. I've been working with Cricket on stopping and she's been doing fabulous. I'm really excited actually  It's amazing how just a few minutes of dedicated time can really.. help!


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## kevinshorses

3neighs said:


> Thank you Kevin.
> 
> Please remember the Conscientious Etiquette Policy everyone:
> 
> 
> *If your post is nasty, condescending, rude, etc., regardless of how subtle, and whether shrouded in the form of opinion or otherwise, it is subject to be removed and your access to the Horse Forum may be restricted.*


 
If your on the recieving end of a post that is nasty, condesending, rude,etc., regardless of how subtle, it may be wise to let it slide. It takes two people to argue so if you let it slide it may keep someone from ruining a good thread. Insult followed by outrage followed by insult ... It's a viciuos cycle that only take one person to break.


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## Honeysuga

Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that I got a little wrapped up in the drama. I'm sorry.

Wild-spot, you gotta do what you gotta do, I was trying to be very general about the whole tie down thing. Didn't mean to aim anything at you or hotrod or anyone specifically. I think if it works for you, then there is nothing wrong with it. As I said in a general way and maybe a little more specifically toward game riders I don't agree with tie downs. What you use at home, and what works for you is what you need to use.


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## I love Arabs

I PERSONALLY would never use a tie down as i think they are a cover up, But whatever floats your boat! If any one would like some advice on avoiding the tie down (like not having to use one) I have a little.

I would try counter bending, flexion, use a longer rein and even take your horse out of the ring for a while, go with friends on a trail ride or down to the beach anything to relax your horse and in turn your horse will start to bring down his head. If you are not able to go to the beach, trails, river ect. try doing trail courses and horsemanship patterns instead of always running the barrels/poles or round and round and round in the ring! Do some spirals, as in: Start with a large circle and slowly work down until you are doing roll backs/spins. If you dont feel comfortable riding without a tie down feel free to ride with one to start with one and slowly work it out of your tack room, you could even ask a experienced rider to ride your horse if you are nervous. If you are in a regular lesson program ask you trainer to show you collection (unless you already know :wink that will help my overal advive would be: Relax take it a step down, alow your horse to do the right thing. Horses are sensitive and smart creatures, if you are a barrel/poles rider (or any event really) flexion will help aswell as counter bending. If you would like to you can take your horse for walks and bonding, bond with your horse show him that you are on his back to hurt him but on his back to hang with him and love him  your horse will appreciate it!!

PLEASE DO NOT BASH THIS AS IT IS ONLY MY OPINION and it really does help me. I hope it helps some other people aswell. I do not want anyone hurt i only want to help. 
I am an experienced rider but most definatley not the greatest person out there, but i do train my own horses.


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## wild_spot

> I would try counter bending, flexion, use a longer rein and even take your horse out of the ring for a while, go with friends on a trail ride or down to the beach anything to relax your horse and in turn your horse will start to bring down his head. If you are not able to go to the beach, trails, river ect. try doing trail courses and horsemanship patterns instead of always running the barrels/poles or round and round and round in the ring! Do some spirals, as in: Start with a large circle and slowly work down until you are doing roll backs/spins. If you dont feel comfortable riding without a tie down feel free to ride with one to start with one and slowly work it out of your tack room, you could even ask a experienced rider to ride your horse if you are nervous. If you are in a regular lesson program ask you trainer to show you collection (unless you already know :wink that will help my overal advive would be: Relax take it a step down, alow your horse to do the right thing. Horses are sensitive and smart creatures, if you are a barrel/poles rider (or any event really) flexion will help aswell as counter bending. If you would like to you can take your horse for walks and bonding, bond with your horse show him that you are on his back to hurt him but on his back to hang with him and love him :smile: your horse will appreciate it!!


Good advice! 

My only problem is I already do all this with my pony :]


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## I love Arabs

It works for some and id say its worth a try anyways there would be no harm in it!


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## I love Arabs

Haha I just re-read this and noticed quite a few spelling errors sorry for the double post!!






I love Arabs said:


> I PERSONALLY would never use a tie down as i think they are a cover up, But whatever floats your boat! If any one would like some advice on avoiding the tie down (like not having to use one) I have a little.
> 
> I would try counter bending, flexion, use a longer rein and even take your horse out of the ring for a while, go with friends on a trail ride or down to the beach anything to relax your horse and in turn your horse will start to bring down his head. If you are not able to go to the beach, trails, river ect. try doing trail courses and horsemanship patterns instead of always running the barrels/poles or round and round and round in the ring! Do some spirals, as in: Start with a large circle and slowly work down until you are doing roll backs/spins. If you dont feel comfortable riding without a tie down feel free to ride with one to start with and slowly work it out of your tack room, you could even ask a experienced rider to ride your horse if you are nervous. If you are in a regular lesson program ask you trainer to show you collection (unless you already know :wink that will help. My overal advive would be: Relax take it a step down, allow your horse to do the right thing. Horses are sensitive and smart creatures, if you are a barrel/poles rider (or any event really) flexion will help aswell as counter bending to turn tight around those barrels or poles. If you would like to you can take your horse for walks and bonding, bond with your horse show him that you are on his back not to hurt him but on his back to hang with him and love him  your horse will appreciate it!!
> 
> PLEASE DO NOT BASH THIS AS IT IS ONLY MY OPINION and it really does help me. I hope it helps some other people aswell. I do not want anyone hurt i only want to help.
> I am an experienced rider but most definatley not the greatest person out there, but i do train my own horses.


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## Painted Hotrod

No offense taken 

I know everyone has an opinion.


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## BuckOff41570

wild_spot said:


> I don't use a tiedown for this, but I do use a martingale. Instead of just saying it is wrong and horrible, why not offer a credible way to combat this without using a tiedown/martingale? Kevin is the ONLY person for far that has answered the repeated requests for other options.
> 
> I know I don't enjoy putting a martingale on my pony - It would make taking up a bunch less complicated if I didn't! And when I ride him, I don't. But NOT ONE PERSON has goven me ANY credible aid/solution to help stop him occasionally flipping his head with other riders. Please, all of you awesome horsemen who have never needed to employ a martingale, enlighten me! He is the ONLY horse I use one on - Which alone should tell you i'm not a martingale happy rider.
> 
> THANK YOU Kevin for actually answering the question that has been asked so many times!
> 
> 
> 
> My pony who goes in rings can do all the above also - plus a good amount of dressage, jumping, lateral movements etc. He is also a very well trained pony.


Well, the reason I didnt give you advice on what to do was because I had read the previous posts and saw that advice had already been given. Why be repetitive? I agree with Kevin.

I think you thought that I was somehow addressing my message to you. I did not, once, say that a horse that uses a martingale/tiedown is undoubtedly a badly trained horse. I was addressing Kevin saying that, while I ride in one, my horse is an exceptionally well trained horse. Granted, there is a reason that he's in one... and it will be fixed. It's a gradual process. But I wouldnt put one on a horse that threw it's head consistantly. 
Anyway, my point was just that, as kevin said after my post, the there are always going to be exceptions to the stereotypes.


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## chesterh

All we needed was Buddy09 unbanned and in here and this thread would have been REALLY fun.  

I still think my barrel horse ran 1000x better with correct balance and training with NO tie down than he did trying to battle a tie down all the way through the pattern. I'm sold on the basics first, ground work up theory.


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## angelsgrace

Tie down have there place i guess I will never use them what I hate is running reins they sound fine but to me it's still tieing your horses head down.

Boots are a must for barrels two different colours would be cool but I haven't tested it but to me different boot types might hurt their legs.
I hope none of my veiws make people think that I'm criciseing I'm just saying what I think

Merry X-mas 
hugs Ireland


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## Alwaysbehind

Maverick101 said:


> I do think there is a time and place for the tie down, as is for spurs, crops, running martingales, german martingales, leverage bits, flashes etc etc.
> 
> There are many training aids that are over used/abused, and as people here say used as a crutch...however that is not to say that someone who uses one in specific situations is a bad horse person and cant ride. Of course in some instances this holds true. But when they have expelled all other options, these artificial aids can make their riding experience a more enjoyable one.


You are one very smart person! 

Life is not black and white most of the time. It is good to see that someone realizes this.


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