# Dear FEI.. It is time for a revolution



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Riding with and accepting a bit is a fundamental basic of dressage. Take away the bit and you've removed a core pillar. 

If bit less is ever allowed, I hope it's not in the same classes as traditional riders.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I agree with ApuestsoT. Being able to ride bitless is not a sign of "superior" skill or riding ability. A part of bit acceptance is having the skill and ability to teach a horse how to properly respond to bit aids and connect the body. I'll say when I'm able to ride my 4yr old one handed on a circle in a lengthening I feel that is a better demonstration of self carriage and a correct foundation that a rider should be able to achieve. 

Also every horse I've ever seen ridden with just a neck rope isn't through or using it's whole self correctly. I could get on my mare bareback with just a hula hoop to guide her around but she wouldn't be on my aids, nearly as through or correctly in balance. It isn't about neck, poll, head position so much as the horse using it's body correctly, in balance and over their back.

Bits, bitless, etc can be misused, anything can but I dont think FEI should allow bitless.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Correct acceptance of the snaffle and then later on the double bridle was a fundamental part of a horse's training and as dressage tests are 'training tests' it would be in wrong to allow bitless horses to compete against bitted ones.
We often ride our horses without bits and I have no problem with people riding bitless for the right reasons and wouldn't be against separate dressage classes for horses ridden in bitless bridles
Dressage with no bridle at all wouldn't be dressage as its about having the horse working between your leg and your hand and you can't do that with just a rope around the horse's neck as that would be removing the 'hand'.


You can show jump in a bitless bridle


Speaking as someone who frequently rode my ponies out all over the place with just a rope around their neck from the age of 9 - and mostly bareback too - with no great difficulty or problems I don't see anything remotely special about it and I would never have described myself as skilled.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I may catch some flack for this, but it's been my experience that the majority of bitless advocates are those who do not have the skill to ride their horse quietly in a bit. You want to pleasure ride, that's fine. But as was mentioned above, dressage is about evaluating training and by removing the bit you are covering up what may be a huge hole in both the horse and rider's training.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Dressage needs to remain a bitted training system, as that is the basis of its foundation. 

We now have western dressage and even gaited dressage; those two disciplines, IMO, have only a slight connection to Dressage and would hate to see more deviations from Dressage (such as bitless) show up. 

just my 2cents.


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## 255954 (Jun 7, 2017)

I don't like the idea of people trying to ram their ideals down the masses throats. I wish people would stop trying to change traditions, history, and everything else. Most bits are not inflicting pain on the horse.


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## k9kenai (Jul 1, 2017)

I am fine with separate classes that are bitless but they should be just that....separate. These riders need to be judged differently in how they handle their horses and their horses need to be judged differently in how they respond to their riders. It cannot be compared side-by-side with a bitted mount, especially in Dressage.

Riding without a bit or bridle does not make anyone more skilled than those who ride with a bit, and in fact I think if they were to compete side-by-side with those who ride in a bit I think you would find that they would generally be the ones in the lower placings, if they placed at all, especially when you get into the upper level competitions. And it's not because there is an "agenda" against those who choose to be different and "non traditional". I used to ride my mare without a bit and in her halter all the time just for fun. I understand the appeal. But I also understand the value of the bit as a tool and a way to connect to the horse in ways you cannot do otherwise and that is what makes the difference in a competition.

Bridleless riding should be left to exhibitions and fun classes. Bitless riding is already allowed in at least a few lower level jumping competitions, and it should stay far away from any Dressage competitions. And as someone else said, ALL of these methods (bit, bitless, and bridleless) have the potential to inflict pain, fear, and/or permanent injury on a horse if misused. So the argument that one is more humane than another is invalid.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I have no dog in the fight, but I'd say that if dressage was developed to test the rider and the horse using a bit, removing the bit would be like asking to participate in a skiing event using a snowboard. It is a different discipline. If there is enough interest people are more than welcome to create their rules and start their own competitions.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I think the letter should read more...


Dear FEI,


Please consider adding a new type of class or show where riders can show bitless.








Why change the rules of ongoing competitions that have endured the tests of time just to appease a few? No need to force ones own beliefs onto that of others.....


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> Dressage needs to remain a bitted training system, as that is the basis of its foundation.
> 
> We now have western dressage and even gaited dressage; those two disciplines, IMO, have only a slight connection to Dressage and would hate to see more deviations from Dressage (such as bitless) show up.
> 
> just my 2cents.


What a very disappointing post, what does the existence of Western Dressage and it's gaited tests take away from traditional Dressage? I get it, both Western people, and Dressage people don't like WD, but it is a sport on it's own. It's very sad to read that you see it as a 'deviation' rather than an expansion. Now I will really blow your mind.....WD, in Canada anyway, allows bitless, not mechanical hacks, but bitless. 
Having tried Fergie bitless for a while I checked the rule book....the guidelines need to be re written slightly, but seems it is available. 

I can't see bitless and bitted horses competing In the English arena, but why shouldn't ' people have their own division, of course they would have to be able to stand the derision of the 'traditional' people.

To the op, each to their own, nothing magical or inherently better in bit or bitless, Fergie's journey has been through many different snaffles, bosal, bitless, and now we have a curb, that I hate, but she seems to be really happy in. Each horse and rider combination has to find out what works fir them. So no, I won't sign, traditional Dressage is just fine how it is, with a long tradition and history, if you want to join in that world, go with their rules. 

You want to start a revolution start your own division, prove that you can compete to the same levels, then look at changing the traditional later.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> What a very disappointing post.


Dressage is pretty much the basis for all upper level disciplines in my opinion so... Western Dressage and Gaited Dressage are disciplines too! And they need love too!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

farmpony84 said:


> Dressage is pretty much the basis for all upper level disciplines in my opinion so... Western Dressage and Gaited Dressage are disciplines too! And they need love too!



:blueunicorn:inkunicorn:

I guess I see it much as I see breeding horses, my beautiful Haflingers, if you want one that looks more like an Arab, great, outcross to a nice Arab, rather than changing a great stocky multi purpose breed into something it isn't.

There is room for lots of disciplines, and I would much prefer to see Traditional Dressage kept 'pure' but welcome diverse offspring. The more the merrier, some will take off, flourish and grow up to be recognized sports, some will not survive the growing pains.

We should encourage new things, we need to get bums in saddles, we need people riding and enjoying their horses.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Agreed, GH. Leave traditional Dressage alone. You want a specialized class then it can't be considered 'traditional', and there's nothing wrong with that. However, don't try to change the playing field just because you think it should be done.


I ride bitless as well as bitted, and there's already Western Dressage. If you want bitless WD, then by all means suggest it. Just don't suggest that FEI change the rules to include every type of tack in traditional Dressage. There's a reason things are traditional; they're a set standard on which to base all riders in the same discipline equally. Letting someone ride TD in Western tack and bitless is NOT making sure everyone's on an equal basis.


Plus, bitless riders simply don't have the finesse and fine motor skills to complete the complicated movements required in TD. The communication between horse and rider is the seat and hands, and even the tiniest movement of the reins conveys instructions. That's where bitless falls far short.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

While I don't show - we ride to be riding, and to push cattle a little - I have ONE horse, an 8 year old gelding, that cannot, will not, tolerate a bit of any sort. He will stand straight up on us. We have another that is 20 and has never had a bit in her mouth - not our doing either. She came to us that way and has always been ridden in a mechanical hackamore.

I tried the same hackamore on my paint that hates bits, and he's an entirely different horse. He doesn't shake apart, he doesn't toss his head, he doesn't rear, he doesn't fight me to put his headstall on him. That does NOT make me a superior horseman - its just Trigger's preference and probably caused by some previous trauma before we owned him, or, alternatively, at the age of 8, he never had a bit in his mouth. The hack works for him, so we're not fixing what isn't broken now that we've figured out the answer to most of his problem.

ALL THE REST of our horses get bits. We had no history on any of them (except Gina) as to what sort of bit they were most familiar with, so we've done trial and error with the most common types found in this area. Either a simple D-ring snaffle or a medium port with a copper roller has worked for everyone so far.

I threw the tom thumb bits (western style) away.

On the bitless madness that seems to be sweeping through - No way in Hades would I try Sarge or Supes or Gina in a hack or just a knotted halter or a bosal with mecate reins. In fact, trying the hack on Trigger was a last resort and on the suggestion, and suspicion, of a friend of ours. (Have you considered maybe he's trained to a hack? Not a bit? Us: LOL. Surely not... a year later we try one... and APPARENTLY so)

If they don't mind the bit, I don't mind using one. I think it depends largely on the horse and the person riding them and needs to be a case by case thing, not an across the board All Bits Are Bad and All Horses Should be Ridden Bitless. 

I realize in the context of showmanship, the bit plays a very different role and are part of the classes themselves, so I'd agree the separate classes seems ideal.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

If bitless vs bitted was simply a discussion of how we want horses to perform and what works, for each individual, to get that performance, it would be much more interesting.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> What a very disappointing post, what does the existence of Western Dressage and it's gaited tests take away from traditional Dressage? I get it, both Western people, and Dressage people don't like WD, but it is a sport on it's own. It's very sad to read that you see it as a 'deviation' rather than an expansion. Now I will really blow your mind.....WD, in Canada anyway, allows bitless, not mechanical hacks, but bitless.
> Having tried Fergie bitless for a while I checked the rule book....the guidelines need to be re written slightly, but seems it is available.


IMO there is only one Dressage and I really don't understand why other sports are using the *term*. 

Why western dressage when there already was a reigning class with patterns? I ride a gaited horse now, but how is gaited dressage related to Dressage? The horses move laterally and they don't trot! Every single gait is incorrect... 

Putting some letters in an arena and having horses make patterns doesn't magically turn it into dressage. Calling it that confuses the whole training scale and the desired carriage of the horse at different levels for those attempting to understand. 

Having the WD & GD as an event doesn't bother me, just using the name Dressage to describe it. They are not like Dressage at all really NOT a deviation :wink:


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Avna... 

But that would be sensible... and who wants sensible conversation? :rofl:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> IMO there is only one Dressage and I really don't understand why other sports are using the *term*.


That seems elitist to me. Dressage means training, it is not a private term to be used by English Riders riding set patterns in the arena.......




AnitaAnne said:


> Why western dressage when there already was a reigning class with patterns?


Because if you are old and scared like me, there is no intro to Reining, to get in there and compete you have to be able to lope large fast circles, if your horse is a grown up you HAVE to ride in a curb and one handed, to say nothing of having to have arenas with footing you can slide in and other small issues.



AnitaAnne said:


> I ride a gaited horse now, but how is gaited dressage related to Dressage? The horses move laterally and they don't trot! Every single gait is incorrect...


You write tests that accommodate them http://nebula.wsimg.com/6ae126c6e83...A691820EE11CB3F89&disposition=0&alloworigin=1





AnitaAnne said:


> Putting some letters in an arena and having horses make patterns doesn't magically turn it into dressage. Calling it that confuses the whole training scale and the desired carriage of the horse at different levels for those attempting to understand.


Have you done any training, or studied WD? maybe you should before making statements like that, again a little insulting to us who are striving to climb that pyramid.



AnitaAnne said:


> Having the WD & GD as an event doesn't bother me, just using the name Dressage to describe it. They are not like Dressage at all really NOT a deviation :wink:


Shakes head, it IS actually really like dressage......


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## 255954 (Jun 7, 2017)

Golden Horse said:


> Shakes head, it IS actually really like dressage......



****!!! But it isn't.

EVERYONE GETS A TROPHY!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

RidinDually said:


> ****!!! But it isn't.
> 
> EVERYONE GETS A TROPHY!


Excuse me? Everyone does not get a darn trophy..everyone works bloody hard to get in there and compete, what utter trash ad nonsense and plain rude


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@Golden Horse I am definitely not an elitist! :rofl::rofl::rofl: I ride in a barefoot treeless saddle, often ride in a halter or a s-hack at home, and they are made of RED biothane!! Many times I am wearing old athletic shoes and stretch jeans!! 

Me, an Elitist?? :rofl::rofl::rofl: 

Much as you calling me that makes me laugh, name-calling is really not appropriate for posting on the Horse Forum. 

The term Dressage is not a new concept, the training scales had been around forever. I have participated in the "L" judge course, so I do have just a little bit of knowledge regarding what constitutes proper gaits in Dressage. 

If you are a beginner and not ready or willing to ride a reigning pattern, then obviously you shouldn't enter a class. But why can't reigning classes have levels of proficiency????? Wouldn't that be a better way to reach your goal, if it is a goal?


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

PS - these days I am usually to be found riding through pastures and racing up mountains! I guess Dressage is a precursor to other styles of riding :racing:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I think this whole discussion is interesting.

I grew up in the "elite" sport of upper level dressage. I love much about the sport. But, IMO, dressage can be applied to any discipline. Until recently, all my students were english dressage or event riders. However, one student proved to me her horse did better and was happier in a bitless bridle. It had absolutely nothing to do with her hands or the horse's acceptance of aids.

Western dressage does accept bitless bridles. So, we started dabbling with it. Golden Horse will be amused as I had my initial disagreement with the standards that western dressage decided on. But, it made for an english horse having a very easy transition into it. The student still doesn't own a western saddle, but she borrowed one for the two shows she very successfully competed in. And, I really like the tests. They are more challenging and much more fun to ride than the traditional tests.

Golden, I now have three full time western dressage riders! One is now showing level 2, soon to go 3.

Does bitless follow into the tradition of dressage? Not really. Maybe if there could be enough entries to have a separate division may, someday, happen. I would have no problem with that. But, dressage is a test of the partnership between horse and rider.....the acceptance of the aids....submission in the movements.....willingness to move forward and engage through the haunch. Something even western dressage asks for.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> @*Golden Horse* I am definitely not an elitist! :rofl::rofl::rofl: I ride in a barefoot treeless saddle, often ride in a halter or a s-hack at home, and they are made of RED biothane!! Many times I am wearing old athletic shoes and stretch jeans!!
> 
> Me, an Elitist?? :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> ...


I have no idea why you have such a downer on a sport I am involved in, that I have worked so hard to improve in, that I have been to clinics, have been a rider for a judges clinic in..

I think your attitude to my sport makes you sound elitist and that is not name calling it is my view on your opinions....


Dressage:
As an equestrian sport defined by the International Equestrian Federation, *dressage* is "the highest expression of horse training" where "horse and rider are expected to perform from memory a series of predetermined movements."

Says nothing about the tack and style used.......seems to be able to include WD, in its own arena of course.



> If you are a beginner and not ready or willing to ride a reigning pattern, then obviously you shouldn't enter a class. But why can't reigning classes have levels of proficiency???? Wouldn't that be a better way to reach your goal, if it is a goal?


You have not addressed the issue of needing suitable arenas with the correct footing for reining, then there is having to have a horse wearing sliders, the wear and tear to their hocks in having to get down and slide.......it is simply NOT in any way a substitute. My horse may never be a dressage star, but she would never ever ever be a reining horse.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

AnitaAnne said:


> PS - these days I am usually to be found riding through pastures and racing up mountains! I guess Dressage is a precursor to other styles of riding :racing:


Anita, I have several students who do just that....trail ride and have fun. Yet, they take dressage lessons from me because they see how developing a close and constructive communication and partnership improves their ability more effectively enjoy their rides.


Comparing reining to western dressage is about as reasonable as comparing grand prix dressage to hunters.....


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> Golden Horse will be amused as I had my initial disagreement with the standards that western dressage decided on. But, it made for an english horse having a very easy transition into it. The student still doesn't own a western saddle, but she borrowed one for the two shows she very successfully competed in. And, I really like the tests. They are more challenging and much more fun to ride than the traditional tests.
> 
> Golden, I now have three full time western dressage riders! One is now showing level 2, soon to go 3.
> 
> Does bitless follow into the tradition of dressage? Not really. Maybe if there could be enough entries to have a separate division may, someday, happen. I would have no problem with that. But, dressage is a test of the partnership between horse and rider.....the acceptance of the aids....submission in the movements.....willingness to move forward and engage through the haunch. Something even western dressage asks for.


Oh GH is highly amused, good for your riders and you. Being a slow learner, I'm still at Level 1. but we are having great fun, Fergie was always destined to be a Level 1 horse, but now I think we may get to 2, but at our own pace. To me it has always been improving our partnership, same as any dressage, and that is not a bad thing. 

I'm lucky to be at a barn where just about everyone takes some dressage lessons, English or Western, we have trail riders, gamers and reiners taking western, and the hunters and jumpers take English.

Last weekend we had a group lesson, 4 English and 2 western, and although we all worked on the same moves and were looking for a lot of the same things, it was hilarious watching the 17.1hh WB come floating by the 14.2 hh western pony.....


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

RidinDually said:


> ****!!! But it isn't.
> 
> EVERYONE GETS A TROPHY!


Where?

I came into WD kicking and screaming, but I quite like it, now. It is more challenging than I expected and a lot of fun. Are you really educated about it? Doesn't seem so......

Will I give up traditional dressage and devote myself to it full time? No. But now I Shepherd two groups to our dressage shows, since they accommodate both disciplines.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@Golden Horse why are you taking everything so personally? 

Kudos to you for working hard in your sport, but this thread is not about your riding or your struggles to learn about riding. 

The thread is about opening up Dressage to bitless. IMO, Dressage has already made more changes than I like to see. 

I use the principles of Dressage in all my riding. Can't help it, it is how I ride. I have improved my horse's gaits through correct body mechanics, but his gaits will never be correct for showing in a Dressage class nor do I ever expect them too! 

Personally, I would *love* to ride a reining horse, and have often watched them thinking how I would enjoy riding one in a (Regular) Dressage class in traditional Dressage saddle and bridle. 

I have nothing personally against any style of riding. Have done most of everything throughout my life, except bronc riding...unless one counts the mechanical bull I rode a time or two :wink:

@Allison Finch So you have found the Western standards difficult to agree on? Much different than the collection and engagement required of Dressage? I certainly did.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> @*Golden Horse* why are you taking everything so personally?
> 
> Kudos to you for working hard in your sport, but this thread is not about your riding or your struggles to learn about riding.


You were the one who took it off course by attacking the sport I'm involved in, of you had not have mentioned it, nor would I.




AnitaAnne said:


> The thread is about opening up Dressage to bitless. IMO, Dressage has already made more changes than I like to see.


Traditional Dressage remains mainly the same, I do not support the inclusion of bitless in TD, but if there was enough interest in bitless dressage, then why not have their own Association, it does not affect TD at all to have other forms being started, if all are working towards harmony and better understanding.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Sorry to disagree again, but I didn't attack "*your sport*". I just don't like other horse sports using the term Dressage instead of getting their own name. Jeez. 

I truly wish with all my heart that folks could have a discussion with differing opinions without putting others down. My hunt for utopia continues...:wave:


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## seabiscuit91 (Mar 30, 2017)

You just admitted dressage is a term. But now you want other sports to 'get their own name' .....

dressage;

noun: dressage
the art of riding and training a horse in a manner that develops obedience, flexibility, and balance.

Definition of dressage
: the execution by a trained horse of precision movements in response to barely perceptible signals from its rider

The word Dressage originates from the French word, dresser, which means to train. Today, the term Dressage is used to describe a type of training method and a competitive equestrian sport which strives for high levels of precision and harmony between horse and rider. The object of Dressage is to progressively develop a horse's physical and mental ability to where the horse can remain calm, consistent, supple, attentive and keen to the aids of the rider. At the highest levels, communication between horse and rider becomes virtually invisible, creating the illusion that the horse and rider are performing 'as one'.

These are 3 different websites. It is an art form. 'Ballet on horseback' if you will.
Yes in different competitions, different levels there are 'rules' as such as to what tack, what style, braided, non braided, novice, 4*, must have dressage saddle, may use all purpose saddle, and so on.
Those 'rules' do not make it anymore 'dressage' than the latter.

It is literally a performance, if the FEI wants to constitute in how you perform the art by allowing certain tack, that is their right, but that's not to say any other competition in it's form 'should get another name' nor does it make it any less of a tradition. 
Yes I'm sure more 'traditional' art work like Picasso is better than mine, but is that to say no one else is allowed to call themselves an artist if their artwork is through photography, pottery, stenciling and so on.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> Sorry to disagree again, but I didn't attack "*your sport*". I just don't like other horse sports using the term Dressage instead of getting their own name. Jeez.


Well I simply do not understand the issue, we are riding dressage, no one own the name, same as an potential new bitless association, we would all be looking for the same goals...

An equestrian sport defined by the International Equestrian Federation, *dressage* is "the highest expression of horse training" where "horse and rider are expected to perform from memory a series of predetermined movements."

Yup that covers what we are aiming for, and to make sure there is no confusion we tag Western, Bitless, bareback, or any other description in front of dressage.


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## KLJcowgirl (Oct 13, 2015)

I've been just lurking here, and I just have to say what's on my mind.

I guess I just don't exactly see what the big deal with Western Dressage is... Everyone is always telling someone learning to jump to take Dressage lessons to help with their seat and connection... are Western Riders not allowed to do the same? Are we not allowed to work on the same principles simply because we ride in different tack? I mean, I do think it is a similar event to Western Riding or Western Equitation, but I've never really looked hard into the event so I don't know.

I have no problem with off-chutes of different events, and no problem using the name, as long as it's easy to distinguish from the original. Example: Dressage is different from WESTERN Dressage. The word WESTERN is the distinction. There's also Western Pleasure and RANCH Western Pleasure. Principals are the same, different style though.

I never thought of myself as a COWgirl because I didn't have any COWS... but what else do you call me? Horsewoman? Showperson? Equestrian? Just doesn't quite fit for me, and makes you sound pretentious and hippy dippy around here (unless you actually show English). I've come to accept it (obviously haha) and it's fine, it makes for less explaining (surprisingly few people know what Equestrian means :shrug. That's kind of how I feel this argument is going.

What else would you call Western Dressage? If it's using the same ideas and principals as the original, why not still call it Dressage?

Anyways, that's my unprofessional observations... And I'm pretty sure not everyone gets a trophy... that was a silly thing to suggest. The only time I've ever seen that at any show was for the lead line kids.

BUT, back to OP. Again, in my unprofessional opinion, bitless or bridleless should be it's own division. There are tack requirements for every discipline, that's how it is and I see no need to change it. Off the top of my head though, there are places tackless is accepted. There are bridleless classes of WP that I've seen, and I've seen MANY people to tackless/bridleless FREESTYLE reining classes. Though all of those horses are perfectly capable of performing with bits and tack as well. 

I totally understand horses not being able to use a bit. I rode one when I was younger. She was a terrible show horse, and we never did find a bit that suited her. She now is an extremely good trail horse ridden in a Bosal. Some horses just aren't suited to show, and if they can't meet the standards and requirements, they shouldn't show. Find something THEY'RE good at. The standards and requirements shouldn't be changed to meet their needs.

^^I'm seeing this happen outside the horse world too and it's so aggravating, but that's a topic for another day and place. :icon_rolleyes:

That's my view anyways :hide: hopefully at least some of that was coherent, my mind was jumping all over!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

AnitaAnne said:


> @
> 
> [MENTION=11271]Allison Finch So you have found the Western standards difficult to agree on? Much different than the collection and engagement required of Dressage? I certainly did.


You don't get it.
My problem, initially, with western dressage is that their standards were TOO similar. I felt they wanted western horses to move with too much contact, too much impulsion and too much engagement of the haunch. To me, they were ignoring the traditional western movement and loose contact. It was english dressage with a western saddle.

I got over it.

Their tests are more varied and more fun, too.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

To OP, I personally can't see why bitless should be against the rules of dressage either. They way I see it, if you can do what is required in whatever tack, why should you need to use a certain type? I'm all for 'pro choice'! IF however, in the higher levels(of which I have no significant knowledge), the definition & judging of 'dressage' includes how well a horse accepts a bit, then that is a solid reason not to allow bitless in higher levels at least IMO though. As others have said, it would 'change the game' & why do that, rather than just start a new one?

But the fact is, that if the vast majority of dressage riders seem to disagree with allowing bitless in the same classes, then that's the way it should stand. If there is interest there - as there seems to be, the world over, I also agree they should allow it in different divisions though. Sounds like this 'Western Dressage' caper is something you'd be interested in looking into further, on that note!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> To OP, I personally can't see why bitless should be against the rules of dressage either. They way I see it, if you can do what is required in whatever tack, why should you need to use a certain type? I'm all for 'pro choice'! IF however, in the higher levels(of which I have no significant knowledge), the definition & judging of 'dressage' includes how well a horse accepts a bit, then that is a solid reason not to allow bitless in higher levels at least IMO though. As others have said, it would 'change the game' & why do that, rather than just start a new one?


All the USEF tests state the purpose and goal of the level. Training level test 1 states that the purpose includes "accepting contact with the bit". Not just a high level thing.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^You can clearly tell then that I have zilch knowledge about dressage comps then! ;-)

BUT I do know enough to know that many, many lower level horses definitely do NOT accept the bit - obviously why tight nose bands are so prevalent. THAT should be banned, so that judges can tell unmasked just how well... or otherwise the horse is accepting!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

loosie said:


> BUT I do know enough to know that many, many lower level horses definitely do NOT accept the bit - obviously why tight nose bands are so prevalent. THAT should be banned, so that judges can tell unmasked just how well... or otherwise the horse is accepting!


Score one for Western Dressage in Canada, no nosebands allowed here.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i will leave this here. Western Dressage IS dressage.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

also Gaited Dressage. it is STILL Dressage but with even more gears.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

KigerQueen said:


> i will leave this here. Western Dressage IS dressage.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZei-ieLH4&t=65s


This, RIGHT HERE, is the problem I still have with WD.

It wants contact, but allows curb bits which should not be ridden on contact, IMHO. I require my students to ride in a snaffle, or bitless.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> This, RIGHT HERE, is the problem I still have with WD.
> 
> It wants contact, but allows curb bits which should not be ridden on contact, IMHO. I require my students to ride in a snaffle, or bitless.


This was an issue that I actually struggled with for a long time, believe it or not, especially in the early days with Gibbs, I wanted to ride him 'Western' I have got over it now, and accept that Western Dressage is it's own thing.

I DO totally understand that the tradition is to ride curbs one handed, and no contact, but when I look at the horses in the video are they looking unhappy in a curb with some contact? 

In Canada the rules now say that any fixed cheek curb must be ridden one handed, a 'transitional curb' one with moveable cheeks can be ridden with two hands.

As to the contact, I have written to WSDAC, the Canadian governing body, asking for certain things to be looked at for the 2018 rule book...for instance: They talk about contact with the bit.....but allow bitless, how does that work? 

It is still a young sport and the rules and expectations will adapt and grow alongside it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

maybe traditional dressage , which is called just "dressage" should take the Capital letter "D" . . . so . . . "Dressage" and the off-shoots use the small 'd'. Becuase , while the word 'dressage' just means 'training' in French, it has come to mean that particular sport. So the word , by itself, has come to mean the traditional form of dressage.
If someone speaks of 'dressage', almost all English speakers will assume they are speaking of the traditional training/sport.

I admit to at first having a bit of an 'ick' reaction to watching riders in western tack having the same kind of contact, and watching them ride in a way that seems odd at first, for a western garbed horse. But, that's just a prejudicial eye. If folks enjoy this sport, and the horses seem to be just fine doing it, why not let it be? It looks like fun. I think as they work to distinguish their version of dressage and find what makes it more 'western' in ways more than just having a different saddle, it will develop into a more respected and unique sport.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I admit to at first having a bit of an 'ick' reaction to watching riders in western tack having the same kind of contact, and watching them ride in a way that seems odd at first, for a western garbed horse. But, that's just a prejudicial eye. If folks enjoy this sport, and the horses seem to be just fine doing it, why not let it be?


This is a very good question, we can talk about tradition, we can talk about what things were designed to do, but ultimately we need to ask ourselves "is this in anyway harming the horse" If they are happy in the contact, if there is no stress or sign of pain, then why should we have an issue? Equally if a horse is resisting, or showing a reaction that says they are complying because of fear or pain, people SHOULD be excused from any ring or competition, across all disciplines.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> maybe traditional dressage , which is called just "dressage" should take the Capital letter "D" . . . so . . . "Dressage" and the off-shoots use the small 'd'. Becuase , while the word 'dressage' just means 'training' in French, it has come to mean that particular sport. So the word , by itself, has come to mean the traditional form of dressage.
> If someone speaks of 'dressage', almost all English speakers will assume they are speaking of the traditional training/sport.
> 
> I admit to at first having a bit of an 'ick' reaction to watching riders in western tack having the same kind of contact, and watching them ride in a way that seems odd at first, for a western garbed horse. But, that's just a prejudicial eye. If folks enjoy this sport, and the horses seem to be just fine doing it, why not let it be? It looks like fun. I think as they work to distinguish their version of dressage and find what makes it more 'western' in ways more than just having a different saddle, it will develop into a more respected and unique sport.


Seems to me 'western dressage' is still a really mixed up thing. It takes bits of very different traditions and tries to make something modern which beginners can play with. There's the California bridle horse tradition -- bosal progressing to spade bit, which comes from Iberia, and is designed around baroque type horses. There is a big bullfighting element as well, which brings in almost a circus element, like those poles. There's the essentially French and German classical dressage tradition, which comes out of elite military training -- snaffle to double bridle. Some of these were also originally baroque horses, (Lipizzaners), but at some point the warmbloods once mainly used for hunting, steeplechase and for carriage horses became the type of choice. Then there's the midwestern cowboy tradition -- snaffle bit to simple curb. 

I don't think the dust has settled at all, on this cultural mishmash. I get the aim -- create a more accessible way for people to partake of the skill set of collection, softness, precision, and careful physical and mental development of the riding horse. You don't need a 17 hand warmblood, with giant floating gaits, which cost you five figures, you don't have to dress up like an 18th century British peer -- you can just come as you are, with whatever horse you have, and your trail saddle. That's cool! 

But confusing.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Many western curbs, like English curbs, can be ridden on contact. It always drives me nuts to hear people complaining about western riders daring to use two hands with a curb, or to have any sort of contact, but at the same time they don't bat an eye at a dressage horse in a double bridle with a crank noseband and so much pressure on the reins the horse's tongue turns blue....

Contrary to popular belief, working western horses generally work on contact, but not what an english rider would think of as contact-- there is more float in the reins (although not as much as you'll see in a western rail class where the reins are pretty much an ornament) but the weight of the reins gives contact and feel. Even a bridle horse 'straight up in the bridle' on a spade bit has contact because the romal reins and chains are heavy, and the slightest movement is transmitted to the horse. 

I can ride my paint mare on a soft contact, or pitch the reins away and ride with slack, and she responds to both and accepts both. A lot of english riders should try to educate themselves more on proper western riding before considering all western riders to be hacks who wouldn't recognize collection and extension if it bit us in the butt. 

Reining and WD are not remotely the same thing. You need a very specific type of horse for reining at a competitive level. You need slide plates, and in many areas, farriers who will do sliders are rarer than hen's teeth. Sliders are also slippery, so they're not something you want on a pleasure horse on a lot of different surfaces. You need a very specific arena surface for reining to avoid injuring the horse, and you never, never ask a horse in sliders who is used to an arena to stop at speed on any other surface as he'll hurt himself. It's an expensive sport far beyond the reach of most riders, and many horses cannot handle the sliding, spins, and roll-backs of a competitive reiner-- does that mean their owners can't learn and work on their riding and training in their tack of choice?

A good western saddle places the rider in a nearly identical position to a dressage saddle, and a finished western horse moves with self-carriage and collection, softness, suppleness, and obedience. He will do flying changes with every stride if asked. He will sidepass and shoulder in and circle. He will extend and collect on command. There's really not that much difference when you get down to it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Avna said:


> You don't need a 17 hand warmblood, with giant floating gaits, which cost you five figures, you don't have to dress up like an 18th century British peer -- you can just come as you are, with whatever horse you have, and your trail saddle. That's cool!
> 
> But confusing.


:iagree: which is why I stopped rationalizing, and just started riding!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Western dressage and Cowboy dressage are two different sports.

it seems to me that Western dressage is more closely mimicking traditional Dressage, whereas Cowboy dressage doesn't follow the traditional layout as much.

yeah, it's very confusing because Dressage used to be much more closely linked to the way of riding that you would see with a Vaquero style trained horse; starting in a Bosal and then a snaffle, and then a curb. That was the way they trained in the times which are imortalized in the artwork shown in that Western dressage video, which is being presented as the rebirth of Dressage, (from ancient times). the curb bit was your main line of communication, but the horse was so responsive that they did not need hardly any contact, so it appears to be that they ride with a droop in the rein.

Then, somewhere along the way, more of the hunter style of riding came into Dressage, as it became not just training, but a competive sport. This meant riding more on the snaffle, with more emphasis on extension and power and riding on a solid, steadying contact, rather than the horse keeping a very light contact such that a super light hand was all that was needed. Now, the snaffle rein of the double bridle is doing most of the work in communication with the horse, with the curb being a back up.

What I see is that in Western dressage, they are riding with the same style, with emphasis on steadying contact, as you would use with a snaffle, but doing so at times with a curb, either solid or broken. Yes, it doesn't hurt the horse, but it's an odd sort of mish mash. I think that is what comes off as incongruous to me, and to some others.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Last time I looked at this thread it was about wanting the FEI to allow bitless bridles................


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Last time I looked at this thread it was about wanting the FEI to allow bitless bridles................


Surprise! 

In a way it is still the same topic -- making dressage "for the masses" as it were.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I wish I had a video of the woman at an equine expo several years ago doing Grand Prix maneuvers in a western saddle with a bosal bridle on a reining-bred Quarter Horse.... The difference between a bosal and most of the other 'bitless' bridles is that the bosal is meant to be ridden on two reins, with the horse collected and on the vertical. Most riders I see using 'bitless' would never consider asking the horse to be on the vertical or carrying himself with any degree of collection or self-carriage. Whether the fault of the rider or the equipment is up for debate, but most bitless riders don't seem to care how the horse moves as long as he stops and steers.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Last time I looked at this thread it was about wanting the FEI to allow bitless bridles................


Thread drift: Alive and well, but still kind of on topic. The OP wanted to start something different...this is a livelier debate than her question produced elsewhere, and a lot less personal snark toward the OP.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> This, RIGHT HERE, is the problem I still have with WD.
> 
> It wants contact, but allows curb bits which should not be ridden on contact, IMHO. I require my students to ride in a snaffle, or bitless.


Wait! What?? Don't get your problem, as English double bridles for 'higher level dressage' include a curb anyway?? One bit in the mouth has gotta be more comfortable than 2... And true 'contact' is different to putting any 'real' pressure on the reins.... what all these people who ride with constant pressure tell me anyway...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

SilverMaple said:


> I wish I had a video of the woman at an equine expo several years ago doing Grand Prix maneuvers in a western saddle with a bosal bridle on a reining-bred Quarter Horse.... The difference between a bosal and most of the other 'bitless' bridles is that the bosal is meant to be ridden on two reins, with the horse collected and on the vertical. Most riders I see using 'bitless' would never consider asking the horse to be on the vertical or carrying himself with any degree of collection or self-carriage. Whether the fault of the rider or the equipment is up for debate, but most bitless riders don't seem to care how the horse moves as long as he stops and steers.


 I'm not sure if 'most' is correct
Those who mostly trail ride aren't likely to worry too much about their horse being 'on the vertical' whether they're bitless or bitted but riders who show jump in hackamores require the same amount of collection and the same headset as a bitted horse and riders who school dressage or compete in bitless dressage (the UK has classes at local level for bitless dressage) still need collection and headset to be correct.
All you do is replace the mouth as the point of contact with the nose
*NOTE. Not my videos so not posted for critique.*


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> Last time I looked at this thread it was about wanting the FEI to allow bitless bridles................


Keep up with the times Jaydee!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> All you do is replace the mouth as the point of contact with the nose
> *NOTE. Not my videos so not posted for critique.*


So much for not being able to collect horses bitless if you can even overflex like in the first vid.

I'm really curious what are the specifics that some people feel cannot be achieved without a bit?? While I'm not of that standard myself(remotely), I've seen a number of egs such as Jaydee gave that show, to my novice eye, it doesn't matter what headgear...


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

*MODERATOR'S NOTE:*

Few posts in this thread have been removed or edited and the Moderating Team is following this thread. Even though we encourage our users to discuss widely, please remember to stay constructive even while disagreeing.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

That Uta Graf horse was trained traditionally in a bit. I'd still like to see a horse with competition worthy gaits and movements who has never spent a significant amount of time in a bit. 

I didn't think you can compare a double bridle with a curb bit. A double has the primary point of contact as the snaffle. The curb is used as needed, though it does maintain light pressure. Only a curb bit means that curb is the primary point of contact. They can't work into the bridle the same way. 

Look at the shank lengths. Dressage does not allow curbs to be over 10cm. Western does not have that restriction.

I think it's wrong that WD allows full contact in curb bits. Especially with no level restrictions. In traditional Dressage you aren't allowed to ride with a curb until 3rd. Many don't start using it until 4th+. But in WD you can be two handed in a 6" curb on contact from the start.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

loosie said:


> Wait! What?? Don't get your problem, as English double bridles for 'higher level dressage' include a curb anyway?? One bit in the mouth has gotta be more comfortable than 2... And true 'contact' is different to putting any 'real' pressure on the reins.... what all these people who ride with constant pressure tell me anyway...


Yes, but the weymouth is not the only bit. The bridoon is the principle bit (with better riders). The curb is a leverage bit and is not made to be ridden in hard contact. the dressage masters of old knew that.










The crank and pull of today's dressage ring is one of the reasons I left competitive dressage.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

In the end if you want to ride bitless or bitted it is completely up to your own discretion and no one should be discriminated for either choice. In saying that I do no believe they should be allowed in the same competition together, bitless dressage should have its own competition sector.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Yes, but the weymouth is not the only bit. The bridoon is the principle bit (with better riders). The curb is a leverage bit and is not made to be ridden in hard contact. the dressage masters of old knew that.


So are you saying an english dressage horse wouldnt be accepting of *just* the weymouth? Which, correct me if wrong, is a curb, and the 'bridoon' is the snaffle?

Yes, horsemasters of old & new knew/know a lot of stuff that doesnt get embraced but i thought one thing 'they know' is that 'contact' shouldnt be hard *regardless* what bit is used.



> The crank and pull of today's dressage ring is one of the reasons I left competitive dressage.


Regardless of mouth gadgetry. Yes, why i have been uninterested in most 'equestrian sports'. I once saw a doco on dressage (traditional) many years ago, which showed top riders at the gym, so they could build their arm strength so they could exert 'enough' force while still looking in 'harmony' with the horse... So much for principles!


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> Last time I looked at this thread it was about wanting the FEI to allow bitless bridles................


Going by the pictures posted on the OP's instagram (address found in her link to her petition), the OP is not old enough to compete at an FEI high level, the level she claims she rides. High level classes are for FEI Seniors. 

By the way, the KNHS has offered bitless dressage classes at lower levels since 2009.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

loosie said:


> So are you saying an english dressage horse wouldnt be accepting of *just* the weymouth? Which, correct me if wrong, is a curb, and the 'bridoon' is the snaffle?


Not what I am saying at all. The whole idea of the double bridle is to have a very subtle communication with a horse. Both bits have a very different feel and action. Using both, in a constructive manner can offer amazing communication between horse and rider. Much more so than either bit alone.



> Yes, horsemasters of old & new knew/know a lot of stuff that doesnt get embraced but i thought one thing 'they know' is that 'contact' shouldnt be hard *regardless* what bit is used.


The photo I posted was how horses were expected to go, when I first started training in dressage. My Dutch coach had the lightest hands and demanded it of his students. You never saw a horse cranked behind the vertical, as it was considered a grave fault and heavily penalized. Today? well......



> Regardless of mouth gadgetry. Yes, why i have been uninterested in most 'equestrian sports'. I once saw a doco on dressage (traditional) many years ago, which showed top riders at the gym, so they could build their arm strength so they could exert 'enough' force while still looking in 'harmony' with the horse... So much for principles!


Sounds like a very skewed and biased documentary. I spent a lot of time in the gym, when I was competing. It was not to strengthen my arms to pull, it was to have the strength of my CORE. If you ever tried to sit a horse, at extended trot, that had a lofty trot, you would know the incredible core strength to be able to sit quietly and effectively. And leg strength? Well, I had the legs from hell. Just saying.....Great arm strength for pulling was not a goal we worked for.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Watch the warmup ring at a dressage show.... even Grand Prix FEI. Very few, if any, of those riders 'rely on the snaffle rein'..... Most of those horses are cranked in with immense pressure on the curb. At the FEI World Cup in Omaha, I saw ONE horse and rider warmed up on the snaffle rather than the curb and ridden on soft contact on the curb. One. The rest were riding in rollkur to varying degrees with the rider pulling hard on the curb. I stood ringside with friends for two days. Our riding varies from pleasure to reining to saddle seat and all commented how much pressure was on those curbs. Three of the horses looked like they enjoyed their jobs.

The jumpers nearly all warmed up with drawreins pulling the horses' noses to their chests. Some in curbs.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Both bits have a very different feel and action. Using both, in a constructive manner can offer amazing communication between horse and rider. Much more so than either bit alone.


OK. But if you object to 'WD' riding in a curb with contact, does that mean that you don't agree with contact with a weighbridge? If that's not the case, I still don't get the difference.

ed to add; bahaha! Just noticed weighbridge - weymouth is what I meant of course!



> The photo I posted was how horses were expected to go, when I first started training in dressage. My Dutch coach had the lightest hands and demanded it of his students. You never saw a horse cranked behind the vertical, as it was considered a grave fault and heavily penalized. Today? well......


Yes, I have had some dressage lessons & do agree with what I know of the *principles & ideals* of it, but while I'm extremely 'novice' in the dressage world, it seems those principles have to some degree at least, been thrown out the window - just saw a freestyle dressage clip on FB of Andreas Helg-something or other - a world class rider apparently, that so many rave about. True, the horse moved very nicely... if you discount that he was well behind the vertical & stiff necked the whole time. I don't call that 'contact' with the bit, but *unyielding pressure*.



> Sounds like a very skewed and biased documentary. I spent a lot of time in the gym, when I was competing. It was not to strengthen my arms to pull, it was to have the strength of my CORE.


Yes, may well have been a biassed doco. It was many years ago & I don't recall the details, only remember that there were riders using dumb bells and telling the presenter that they like to keep strong enough so they could hold the horse with enough pressure, without looking like it was any effort. :-( My point of that comment was to acknowledge the difference between 'true' dressage ideals & as you put it, the 'pull & crank' style.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

SilverMaple said:


> Watch the warmup ring at a dressage show.... even Grand Prix FEI. Very few, if any, of those riders 'rely on the snaffle rein'..... Most of those horses are cranked in with immense pressure on the curb. At the FEI World Cup in Omaha, I saw ONE horse and rider warmed up on the snaffle rather than the curb and ridden on soft contact on the curb. One. The rest were riding in rollkur to varying degrees with the rider pulling hard on the curb. I stood ringside with friends for two days. Our riding varies from pleasure to reining to saddle seat and all commented how much pressure was on those curbs. Three of the horses looked like they enjoyed their jobs.
> 
> The jumpers nearly all warmed up with drawreins pulling the horses' noses to their chests. Some in curbs.


Sigh

Yes, today's dressage is a poor comparison to yesteryear, IMO. They have traded dramatic horse's movements and showy exercises for what most considered proper training and correct ways of going. I so disliked what was coming into the show ring, I decided to leave it.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Allison Finch said:


> Sigh
> 
> Yes, today's dressage is a poor comparison to yesteryear, IMO. They have traded dramatic horse's movements and showy exercises for what most considered proper training and correct ways of going. I so disliked what was coming into the show ring, I decided to leave it.


A good friend of mine is training a couple of OTTB's in dressage and 3-day eventing and she gets so upset at what dressage has become--- "I would sell a kidney for a horse like that, and then to watch such a lovely animal ridden with his head cranked in to his chest makes me ill" is pretty much her comment whenever she watches dressage anymore.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> Sounds like a very skewed and biased documentary. I spent a lot of time in the gym, when I was competing. It was not to strengthen my arms to pull, it was to have the strength of my CORE. If you ever tried to sit a horse, at extended trot, that had a lofty trot, you would know the incredible core strength to be able to sit quietly and effectively. And leg strength? Well, I had the legs from hell. Just saying.....Great arm strength for pulling was not a goal we worked for.


LOL, Coach tells us if we want to work on our arm strength, go to the gym, while you are riding you need feel and timing, not strength. Core strength, Oh yes....funny as my hands are finally improving I now am having to use my core a lot more.


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