# ATTN Dressage People!



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Mind my position, it's hard to look nice when you have an enormous set of withers up your unmentionables :lol:

But.... what are your thoughts on my mare's second day doing walk pirouettes? I see the moments of resistance, and believe they come from her uncertainty - she is still rather green when it comes to this kind of work & I do not ride with spurs often (only when we're doing lateral work) so there was a lot of new stuff for her to cope with and she um... doesn't :lol: :lol:

What can I do to make what I want clearer, beyond praising when I get it? Am I missing something? I am not a dressage person and this is my jumping prospect - I'm using these movements as exercises to build suppleness and understanding of the aids - so all constructive input is appreciated! <3

(I do have a nice arena to ride in, I was just too lazy to dismount and open the gate)


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## Monohorse (Nov 4, 2017)

This is not a true walk pirouette but simply turning on the spot. A proper walk pirouette is used to show collection and balance/regain balance. There’s no collection in this video and no hind end engagement. This is seen when asked to begin the turn she is on the forehand, almost comes to a halt and the hind end is left trailing behind, rather than a clean movement. When performing the turn the horse makes a few baby step shuffles in the hind end but mostly pivotes on the one leg. In a correct walk pirouette there is no pivoting. This is caused by losing momentum and control of the hind, so rather then stepping around the turn the horse is just swinging its hind end out. Lastly I would point out the lack of bend which is making the whole thing fall apart. You need to be asking for a lot more flexion to prepare the green horse to perform a turn like this. Without it what you have is a log and logs don’t drive very well! Hope this helps.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you! I knew I was missing something. Turns out I'm missing a lot :lol: 

Oh well, like I said, not a dressage person. Guess I still have a lot to work on!


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Looks like a turn on the forehand but that’s a basis for a walk pirouette as the horse needs to be able to move body parts independently as a foundation! Something to build on which is good


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Yea, not quite it. Remeber, your going for a pirouette, not a spin. Don't think about it as stop and turn. Think shorten, shorten, then around. Take a wider track until you can feel the legs working, then as they get stronger and balanced, close the distance. Or do a quarter or half turn then walk out of it. 

You also need the horse more on the outside rein. When you go to stop, look how their head goes up
That's not a horse whose connected. You want them to be as straight as possible with an inside bend.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

This is going to sound like an excuse and I'm sorry for that butttt.... I think a lot of her failing to stay soft in the bridle was because of how I was riding today. She tries very hard and I think I was getting in her way a lot.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't see the point in even concerning yourself with whether it is a walk pirhoette or a turn on the haunches. It doesn't matter. What you are doing is basically playing with your horse, exploring her body and her willingness to do something new, and working to encourage her 'try' and all that. 

I think it's rather cute to see the two of you 'playing' together. people should 'play' more with their horses. I think your mare is listening to you and giving you a really nice try. And, you can help her a little bit more by working with her to have more softness in her poll and jaw. 

Her conformation has her with a very straight neck, which will make it hard for her to bend there. However, patient work asking her to flex at the poll, both vertically and more importantly, laterally, will help.

If you really want to get a critique on your riding, or on your horse, don't do it bareback. take away that 'excuse' and ride with your best advantage.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I think it matters. She came asking about a walk pirouette, not a ToH. Its about the accuracy of the request since the aids are quite different. A properly executed walk pirouette will teach the horse different things. Op has a jumper. Doing a roll back needs to mimic a pirouette more than toh. If they instead plant a hind foot and spin, they won't have the power and balance to properly face the next element. It will matter when the fences get higher and the distances closer.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Looks like a turn on the forehand but that’s a basis for a walk pirouette as the horse needs to be able to move body parts independently as a foundation! Something to build on which is good


Looks like a turn on the haunches, not forhand
Turn on the forhand, has the hips moving, while front end is the pivot point
I agree it looks more like a starting point on working on a spin, where the horse stays flat, crossing over in front, versus a pirouette,where the horse elevates in front, versus reaching and crossing over correctly in front. A pirouette, to me, looks like a roll back, broken down in segments
I am sure there is a huge difference, just an observation from outside the discipline.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like a turn on the forehand but that’s a basis for a walk pirouette as the horse needs to be able to move body parts independently as a foundation! Something to build on which is good
> ...



Oh whoops yes haunches not forehand! Night shift brain haha


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone 

This is uh... not what I wanted to hear. But it's definitely what I needed. 

She IS capable of lifting her forehand, I've seen and photographed her doing it, but maybe I'm not experienced enough to get her to do it under saddle. She is also capable of lifting through the base of her neck and making a lovely shape with herself, though I haven't asked her to do it with a rider because she's green and therefore not strong enough. And um... again... I don't think I quite have the experience.

I'm bareback at the moment whether I like it or not because I do not have a saddle that fits her...


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

When I learnt to do it and I only did it maybe once or twice correctly as it can hard to get a grip on, you don’t stop and then do it. The way I was taught was to come through the middle of the round yard and slow almost like you’re going to stop and then move through the forehand. You don’t stop and then do it, it’s something that flows. True pirouettes take time to develop and take a lot of organising so don’t feel discouraged get an instructor to help you


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

blue eyed pony said:


> She IS capable of lifting her forehand, I've seen and photographed her doing it, but maybe I'm not experienced enough to get her to do it under saddle. She is also capable of lifting through the base of her neck and making a lovely shape with herself, though I haven't asked her to do it with a rider because she's green and therefore not strong enough. And um... again... I don't think I quite have the experience.


There we go, she is young and green, and not strong enough.....good for her to learn to turn, move away from your leg etc, true pirouettes come way later in training.....but one that you can for sure work towards.

ABC's before reading Shakespeare.....


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone 

It's interesting, she responds like a far more educated horse, but lacks a lot of strength. Balance wise she's really getting there now. She tries her heart out to do what I ask her to, and resistance only means she can't do it or she's finding it really hard or she doesn't understand what I want. She's very light and responsive, and when I'm riding well enough, she'll come lovely and round in all three gaits (we uh... don't gallop :lol: I figure she's done enough of that for a while, being an ottb). But yeah... I'm definitely the weak link in this partnership. I know I need more lessons! Just got to get her a saddle that fits so my coach can be tough on me without me ending up rubbed raw in some very sensitive areas :lol:


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I think in terms of actual benefit for you and your mare I would work on establishing a true-pure rhythm in all 3 gaits. ALWAYS think of that forward 1-2,3-4 of the walk, she needs to be much more forward than you have her in the video. It should be a marching walk, all good quality work begins with the quality of the gaits. Even in collected work you do not lose the energy, it's more like coiling of a spring but they must first be in front of your leg (which honestly almost EVERY upper level rider I see at local US shows lacks true collection because their horses shut down in the collected work). When you ask for the forward it should never be grind in your hips, DO NOT sit heavier otherwise it's like points digging into her spine, instead sit in a way that moves her rib cage between your legs (feel her rib cage sway between your right and left leg, when you feel her right rib cage push into your leg push lightly with your right leg, same with the left) like youre swaying her rib cage between your legs but not in a strong way. When you apply an aid you're not going to push the horse over, always think light aids. Think of your aids like your talking to her in a room full of people, she should be able to hear you whisper and sometimes hey don't understand so you have to be stronger or talk louder to make the message clear but then return to the whisper. Think of it as here this is what I want, okay you reacted properly good girl! Whenever you're showing a horse something you're developing their reactions, evaluate their reaction to the aid rather than whether or not the task was completed. Training is a gradual build up of reactions. Even on a dull horse once I've taught them my expectation I barely touch them with my leg or with my ottb I just think it and he's eager to do whatever I ask. Leg yields are a thought. 

With rhythm same with trot 1-2 and canter 1-2-3. I ALWAYS have a rhythm set in my head and I count on every horse because it is so easy to break out of rhythm. But everything build from having true gaits and pure rhythm. 

As for actual benefit I think turns on the forehand are generally more beneficial than turns on the haunches for training. Both are good so you can have body control of the shoulders and the haunches but turn on the haunches is often one of the first things we teach young horses because it teaches them how to connect the inside hind to the outside rein. It's also the base exercise that eventually develops into a leg yield. Which honestly a lot of laterals I begin by teaching them from the ground. Shoulder in, leg yield, turn on the haunches and turn on the forehand. I also moderate it so say turn on the forehand but I want them to step over laterally with their front leg too so they're stepping their body over. Body control and understanding.

Also in terms of training walk pirouettes it's really not that magical in which a horse needs to be a certain age or super strong, nor is it far down a horse's training. It just needs the development of good basics and fair communication. It's not usually from a strength issue but undeveloped basics and unclear communication. Forward clear walk rhythm, developed collected walk and shoulder in, haunches in, bending through the rib cage, leg yield, etc which honestly most horses can learn pretty quickly. They just wont be confirmed in it or strong enough to maintain immediately. The walk pirouette is pretty basic but do not be discouraged if you're struggling, to be honest horses usually learn much faster than people do. And it is hard to learn the timing and feel if you have no one to help you or having something to ride that has the feel to offer.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thank you very much! <3

This green baby ottb is my main horse and my only other mount is uh... even greener. I haven't had an educated horse since my jumper retired and even then he wasn't at all a dressage horse! If I was lucky, on a good day, he'd step over off my leg... IF I was lucky. I actually HAVE ridden a very very nice dressage horse a couple of times (I think they told me he was an Inter I horse? Whichever one is the step down from GP) and I know for a FACT I couldn't get the best out of him but it was certainly enlightening as to where my unevenness was, and he showed me a lot of my inconsistencies.

I also don't have enough money to get my coach more often than, uh, occasionally. Hence posting here. I'm basically trying to figure this all out on my own. Ikora is not my first young horse by a long shot (I've had several and broke two to ride myself) but she's the most challenging and also the most talented.

She'll stop if I sit heavier so don't worry about that! :lol: She is very very sensitive and first and foremost before anything else I taught her to respond to my seat. I sit heavier and breathe out to ask her to halt. 99 times out of 100 that's all it takes and I only very rarely have to touch her mouth.

You know what's interesting? She will not, absolutely will not, turn on the haunches on the ground... but is light and beautiful turning on the forehand. Ridden, she'll turn on the haunches beautifully, but insists she doesn't understand if you ask her to turn on the forehand.

I guarantee I've missed something important in her training... I'm just trying to establish her flatwork to the point of her having what she needs to jump nice courses, and then she's going to be my showjumper... but yeah... I want the basics in place and solid first.

I need to get another video now I'm in a saddle again!


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