# Lower spine problem



## jfisher256 (Jul 12, 2011)

So from the time I started riding at 9, up until about 16 years old, I was a very active rider. I was always in lessons, showed competitively for the first few years, and was leasing horses.

In January 2010, a few months after I had just turned 16, I was having horrific lower back pain that radiated down into my hip and through my knee. It was so bad, that every time I walked I had to drag my leg everywhere. I went to my doctor to see if he could find a problem. So my doctor suggested getting an MRI on my lower back. Within not even a day or two of them getting the MRI results my doctor's office called me and told me to come in as soon as possible.

I had a bad fracture of the lumbar spine (L5-S1) and was diagnosed with a condition called spondylolisthesis. What initially caused the fracture was horseback riding. I have super straight posture (almost too straight) and it probably happened from posting trot. The stress of that on my back eventually caused a fracture and it was only getting worse. My doctor told me he was lucky they found it when they did. After diagnosing me and all that fun stuff, he proceeded to ask me if I would consider dropping horseback riding for something else. In which I promptly told him, "no."

I was in a body cast for 3 months, and had to do half days at school. It didn't help that 10th grade was already a pretty stressful year for me, having a fractured back and doing half days only added to that stress. Luckily the fracture healed completely.

Ever since then, I haven't been entirely serious about my riding. Lately though I'm finding myself desperately wanting to get back into it, but part of me is kind of nervous to.

Is it entirely possible that with having this kind of condition, that I could end up re-fracturing my back, if I start to seriously take up riding again? I have noticed lately that I'm having subtle back pain where I fractured it which worries me (and I'm not even riding right now). I'm not sure if I'm being paranoid, and I feel like I need opinions/advice. Has anyone on here had a fracture in the L5-S1 area and/or have spondylolisthesis of that area that can tell me their experiences?

I didn't get surgery because I was in high school and it was already a difficult year for me. Being out of school and recovering would have only made the year more difficult for me. I've been doing research and am finding that recovery can take a decent amount of time.

Now that I'm older, would some type of lumbar fusion or something help? Or would physical therapy help more? I'm concerned mostly that a surgery would just kind of set me back and result in limitations or restrictions to my riding (i.e. no jumping).

Sorry for the novel, I figured giving a bit of a background on my previous injury and riding would help a bit. Judging by the research I've been doing, I would probably only have the L5-S1 area fused. I haven't seen a doctor for it, but I figured posting here would be a helpful start.

Thanks in advance!


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't have a back that bad, luckily when I ruined mine nature took its course and put bone spurs all the way down but I did want to address a few areas. 


jfisher256 said:


> Is it entirely possible that with having this kind of condition, that I could end up re-fracturing my back, if I start to seriously take up riding again?


Yes. It is possible. Sadly in horseback (and other active sports) reinjury is always a factor. I completely severed my patella from my knee last year. My knee is gone and I have limited weight bearing/muscles in that leg. My surgeon and I battled back and forth on whether or not I could continue to ride. One tumble off and I've got a ruined knee again and/or a crippled up leg. However, I make the decision that I will continue to ride and take that risk. To me the risk is worth it. To you it may not be, it just varies and is a personal decision because the possibility is always there. 

I would definitely see a doctor to assess your own situation. I've known people who had a fusion done and thought it was the best thing ever, and others who were unhappy with it. I think it really depends on a case to case scenario. Just as a question, have you sought any help from physical therapists? And if you can't ride for a while or decide to take it easy do you think driving would be something that you would be interested in? 

In any case, I hope that you get well soon and that everything goes swimmingly!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think that condition, spondy what cha ma callit, is more common than we realize. I think that's what my doc puts in my chart whenever I come in complaiing of bac pain. I do phys therapy now and then, and I know that what I really need to do is lose weight.

but anyway, not about me. can you change the type of riding that you are doing, and type of horses? perhaps try riding western? not compete anymore, and see about some phys therapy to strengthen the surrounding tissue.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Also you could try carriage driving, and make sure you have good suspension.

As a general comment about bone fracture risks: Seems modern life is increasing it, and also the osteoporosis risk, which of course leads to fractures later in life. I read an interesting article about how the modern admonitions to avoid fats are contributing to people getting less fat-soluble vitamins (A, E, D, K2 etc) in their diet and this contributes to all sorts of health issues, including osteoporosis and fractures. Healthy plant fats like olive oil are a definite daily requirement for good nutrition - also found in nuts, avocados, etc which, although energy dense, are high in excellent nutrients and very filling. Oily fish is also great.

Also I personally have always had full-fat dairy, as do the dairy farmers around here, and of course, famously, the Amish, who have lower rates of health problems than the mainstream Western community (through lots of factors, including eating unprocessed organically-grown food, being very physically active all day, spending significant time outdoors, having a low-stress simple lifestyle, full employment, lots of contact with people and connectedness in community etc).

Best wishes for your health and following your horse and other dreams!


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

SueC is absolutely correct in her descriptions of dietary fat, vitamins and our current epidemic of problems (man, there's a lot of those, too!). 

So nice not to be the only one talking about doing things differently. As a professional in the health industry and nutrition, it's quite refreshing to see that the unscientific dogma of vilifying fat and cholesterol is finally beginning to wane. People are taking notice of the real problems that are causing our national health decline. 

Well, for a little more advice on what you can do for your health, bone health is directly influenced by your diet, and you can do a LOT to augment your health. Like SueC said, full-fat dairy is the best, and in fact the ONLY dairy you should use. The reason is that not only is reduced-fat dairy well, reduced fat, but it is homogenized, and pasteurized. Both of these processes reduce the useful nutrients and actually contribute to the deficiency of fat-soluble vitamins. I highly recommend raw milk, especially for people with bone or immune problems. 

Another thing specifically for bone health is bone broth. This is simply slow-cooked joint and long bones of animals, along with some vegetables, made into stock. A cup a day of bone broth provides ample, available minerals and vitamins along with sorely needed collagen, phosphorous, and basically everything bones are made of. 

The need for reduction of carbohydrates in the diet cannot be over stressed. Reducing your carb intake in preference for fats and proteins will increase the nutrient density of your diet, and decrease stress of glucose constantly entering your bloodstream. 

I personally do not recommend any supplements except for cod's liver oil. Not to be confused with fish oil, which has very high amounts of omega-6 polyunsaturates. Cod's liver oil provides the exact ratio of A, D, and K2 needed by the human body.


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

You can cook down a chicken or turkey carcass with a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar in the water to make that bone broth, I think. It draws all the calcium out of the bones. My mother in law used to make a dog food for her dog, and that was one of the steps, and it completely saved her friend's dog.


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

MaximasMommy said:


> You can cook down a chicken or turkey carcass with a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar in the water to make that bone broth, I think. It draws all the calcium out of the bones. My mother in law used to make a dog food for her dog, and that was one of the steps, and it completely saved her friend's dog.


That is one way to make bone broth. When choosing your ingredients, always try to go for organic as much as possible. Bones from animals that are grain-fed will be of vastly inferior quality. Remember, you are what you eat! 

You should let your bones soak in luke warm water and a cup of vinegar for about an hour, then turn turn to high heat to get a boil. Once it's boiled, turn it down to low, and skim the skum that has risen to the surface. 

Skimming is a little time-consuming but it is an important step. These are all the impurities, toxins and junk that the animals has accumulated over its life. A frequently skimmed stock will be clearer, less bitter, and more flavorful, not to mention more nutrient dense. 

You can then add your vegetables. I like to use carrots, celery, parsley, but you can use whatever is around. Adding the veggies last just makes it easier to skim; they usually float. 

Then, keep it on low heat for at least 24 hours. You can keep it on for up to 72 hours if you like. The longer you cook it, the better it will be.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

doesn't a CUP of vinegar make it rather unpalatable once it's done? I mean, sour? and do you use it in cooking or just heat and drink, like tea?


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> doesn't a CUP of vinegar make it rather unpalatable once it's done? I mean, sour? and do you use it in cooking or just heat and drink, like tea?


Yes, if you use too much the stock will be sour. I should have said this is for about 6-10 quarts of stock. If you have a smaller stock pot, you should use less vinegar


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

If you want to see how acids leach calcium from solid structures, just put an egg into Coca Cola for a day... or put a smallish bone into Coca Cola for a couple of days. When you take it out, you'll be able to put a knot in that bone, it will be that pliable. Of course, I'm not advocating cooking with Coca Cola... ick... It's more of an "Imagine what this stuff does to your teeth" demonstration...

DCC is so spot on about the carbohydrates. The food pyramid that was taught in schools for a long time was funded by the grain industry and does not go well for promoting good health. Vegetables, legumes, nuts, healthy oils etc need to be consumed in far higher quantities than the traditional pyramid suggests.

Sugars - the simplest carbohydrates - are probably the biggest problem in modern eating patterns, because they have gone from something encountered in relatively low amounts in hunter-gatherer diets (honey, fruit) to something added to food at every turn, at the same time as average activity levels have dropped to sedentary in our societies - a double whammy.

Fruit and some vegetables (e.g. tomatoes, capsicums, which botanically are actually fruit, and corn etc) have been selectively bred for increased sugar content for decades, and many have more than double the amounts our grandparents had in theirs. You can grow heirloom varieties that are more like your grandparents' - and if you can't, you can go to farmers' markets, and if you can't do that, you can select the less sugary F&V, and everyone can cut out processed foods, and start cooking their own from scratch. If you've never done that before, books like Jamie Oliver's "Save with Jamie" show you tricks on how to create low-fuss, tasty meals that are good for your health and budget. Lucy Burney's "Immunity Foods for Healthy Kids" is also an excellent resource, as is Readers Digest's "Foods that Harm, Foods that Heal" - which lists every food imaginable and outlines traditional uses and nutrition research on them - busting quite a few of the myths DCC mentioned.

Most people now use refined instead of wholemeal flours - which means the majority of the useful minerals and vitamins are stripped out, and the starches break down far more easily into sugars than they should. We started buying organic locally-grown wholemeal flours (wheat and rye) and use those as our mainstays in making bread, pizzas and cakes (like our delicious and low-sugar plum cake on a yeast-raised wholemeal base... and all my shortcrust pastry is made with wholemeal flour, oatmeal and almond meal, and butter, but not nearly as much as in "normal" recipes). Now my parents are doing the same. Also we found wholemeal pasta works fine for things like Bolognaise Sauce and pasta salads.

When I have a relatively sedentary day, the thing I cut back is the carbohydrate, e.g. less pasta, normal amount of meat-vegetable sauce; less bread etc.

About animal fats: Humans evolved consuming those, and the main problem I think is that Western lifestyles are too sedentary and comfortable to cope with eating the same calories our forebears did, and that the foods themselves have become non-foods mostly, with few minerals, vitamins, antioxidants etc.

At the same time, animals are getting raised on industrial scales, often fed on poor diets themselves and confined and sedentary. Traditional, grass-fed beef and dairy has a far higher healthy fat to unhealthy fat ratio than feedlotted beef and dairy, for example. Of course, game meat (closer to what our forebears ate) is lowest in overall fat, and the healthiest animal fat.

Animal fats do unfortunately concentrate the fat-soluble toxic chemicals we humans have been throwing around with impunity: DDT, organochlorines, etc - something else to consider - and a problem again reduced when you know animals have been brought up on relatively uncontaminated pastures. Some Organic Grower associations actually test farms for soil residues of such toxic chemicals before certifying the produce from that farm as organic.

Lots to think about these days, but once you get past making the change, it's fun cooking your own foods and knowing where the ingredients came from.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

if you didn't want to give up riding altogether, could you take up western, you don't have to post riding western, I know it's not the same thing, but If I had a choice to switch disiplines or give up riding altogether, I would switch.. I could be wrong, but its just a suggestion


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## jfisher256 (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh my goodness I'm sorry I haven't responded! Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate hearing what everyone has to say.

As for trying another discipline: I actually tried western before, for about a month at my old barn. While I did enjoy it at first, I eventually wasn't crazy about it and went back to english. I've never tried driving, that would be a different and interesting thing to try! I live in an area with a ton of barns, maybe I can look into something and see if they offer driving. I can't say whether or not it would be something I'd stick with, but it's certainly something I'd be willing to look into.

As for taking riding off/doing PT: I do plan on starting PT again. Unfortunately, I lost my last set of exercises my physical therapist gave me. But my sister is doing PT for her neck/shoulder right now so I asked my mom if she could get some exercises from him when they go in again! The last time I was on the back of a horse was in 2012 but if it means waiting just a tad bit longer to strengthen the area it's something I'm 100% willing to start up again. I plan on starting a new job probably in January, and I'd like to save up a decent amount of money before I even start talking to different barns (which will probably be a few months before I do). So I'd have plenty of time to strengthen the area.

Plus, chances are I probably wouldn't start competing until around the fall (if I decided to again that is). I did go to a physical therapist in the past, but being the dumb teenager I was didn't follow through with the exercises thus I still have a weak back.

I did research on the surgery and about keeled over at the cost (avg. $70-$100k!), so that probably won't be considered unless absolutely necessary. My sister's had 2 costly surgeries in a year's time so I don't think my mom would be thrilled if I told her I really wanted/needed to get this done. :\ But if I do, luckily I live about 40 mins from Philly where there are some very reputable spine doctors/surgeons who could perform a lumbar fusion.

Interesting stuff concerning healthy dieting! Some things I definitely want to try. I really need to up my dairy intake. I drank milk a lot as a child (like addicted to it!), but now I find it repulsive and I wish I didn't. So I probably don't have the strongest bones in the world. Between my back and several foot fractures, you'd think I'd learn to up my dairy intake! I'd like to look into the raw milk and making the bone broth as well.

When I have sedentary days, I definitely try to cut back on carbs. Like for literally the past month, I've barely done any type of working out. Which so isn't like me, because I'm used to running 6-7 miles with my mom a few days a week! Going from that to barely doing anything isn't my cup of tea. And of course I wake up every day thinking, "Today I'll go for a 2-3 mile run, just to get my body moving!" And of course, it doesn't happen..ever haha! Luckily though I try to space out my days that I have a higher carb intake (pasta, pizza, etc.). So the last few days I had a decent carb intake, so today I made sure to lessen them. I'm trying to be careful while not working out much, especially since being in a body cast for 3 months. I was already not working out much and eating very unhealthy foods/snacks. I ended up putting on almost 30 pounds after my fracture healed, but have since successfully taken that weight off and now weigh 110 thanks to healthy eating/exercising!

Thanks again everyone for your replies/input! It's not like me to post something and not reply to anyone for 5 days, so please don't think I posted this and then disappeared! I'll keep everyone updated in regards to PT/diet changes!  Again, sorry for the novel, but I wanted to cover everything and I tend to ramble haha.


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## jfisher256 (Jul 12, 2011)

I should also add: even though I haven't done much in the way of working out, that doesn't mean all I do is sit around all day/every day. I still get up and do things and go out to do some shopping, run errands, etc. Because of course doing literally nothing but sit around all the time wouldn't help my back either. So when I'm not working out I still find ways to get myself up and moving!


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

That is terrific and I'm glad that you are conscious of your diet and activities! It sounds like you know what you need to do, just need some motivation to go ahead and start. 

One thing I'd like to expand on though, is your mentioning of carbs on certain days that you work out. While it's good that you are aware of the weight-gaining effect of carbohydrates, its easy to get addicted to them, and fall into an all-around high-carb diet, all the time. 

The reason carbohydrates in the diet are so dangerous, is that they tip the scales of your whole-body metabolism toward the fat-storing, insulin-producing side. Human nutrition is incredibly complicated, and there are a myriad of strings that get pulled or twisted when your diet changes. Suffice to say, and a high-carb diet actually restricts your body's anabolic metabolism, which means your rate of building muscles and tissues like bones is depressed. 

In short, your diet over a long period of time directly influences your ability to make and maintain bone strength. Whether or not you 'burn' the carbohydrate calories makes no difference; it still goes through the same metabolic pathways. That is why a low-carb diet is very important, especially for people who need to build bones, immunity, or anything at all!

A great book by some German doctors, called 'Life Without Bread' is one I'd recommend to anyone interested in the topic. It is particularly useful because everything is explained in layman's terms, and it sites decades worth of research. The United States in particular is far behind the times in this area of nutrition.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

My back is pretty much toast. The doctor was thinking spondylitis but he has pretty much decided it's plain old osteoarthritis. I've got 2 vertebrae sitting on nothing to cushion them, I'm loaded with bone spurs, inflammation.

Like riding I was told to build up my core muscles. I've got a gaited horse. Little easier on my back. Doctor told me to ride, just don't do any bronc riding if I can avoid it. Been avoiding that for a number of years anyhow. Never been a big fan of jumping. Figured why jump if there's a perfectly good path around the obstacle. Pretty much the doctor said try to avoid sudden whiplash movements, nothing to pad that back. My horse is quiet. Should an odd spook happen it's just going to hurt, not kill me. Though I try to avoid hitting the dirt at this point in my life anyway.

Not real keen on a stranger with a scalpel messing anywhere near my spine. I got 3 different opinions on a simple carpal tunnel operation. No touching something as important as my back.

I got pondering the arthritis one night and I realized I'm not following my own dietary reasoning I use for my horses and gardens.

Where I live the water is really, really soft. It's about as close to distilled water as your going to get from a natural source. With only a few exceptions all my garden plants really respond to me adding calcium and magnesium to the soil. I also keep some planted aquariums and in order to keep the plants from stunting and the snails from dissolving I have to add a good deal of calcium and mag to the water. The water will literally pit the shells of live snails to the point where it will kill them. If I ignore the water parameters I will get young fish with deformed spines.

I do get plenty of calcium in my diet. I eat broccoli constantly. I drink lots of milk, eat lots of cheese. But I realized I didn't often eat much that had a good amount of magnesium in it. They work together.
Anything I grow here is only going to have the mag I added. So I started adding a little mag to me too. Maybe I can slow it down. I'm not a big fan of multi vitamins but living alone I don't always eat right. Pain in the butt to cook for one. 

As I understand it your variation is the vertebrae no longer stacking up right, shifting out of line.
Build up the muscles around them. Eat right so you can build healthy bone. Takes time but I'd try that long before I let somebody mess with my spine.


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## jfisher256 (Jul 12, 2011)

If it's one thing I need, it's motivation! Haha, I'm terrible at getting myself motivated. I went for a quick 1-mile run about a week ago and even that was hard to get myself going for.

I'll have to look into the 'Life Without Bread' book! Sounds like something I'd be interested in reading!

I think strengthening my core muscles is definitely a good idea, something I have to put at the top of my list, especially since I'm not really doing a whole lot of running right now! I think it's a good idea to try, especially since now probably isn't really the best time to be thinking about any type of procedure. The idea of someone picking at my spine is a bit nerve wracking too!

Thanks for your input!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

if you can run a mile, you have a LOT more in the way of health than many do.


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