# Opinions please



## shirraz (Apr 20, 2010)

Hi all,

I'm looking for a jumper to take me thru 3' to 3'6 over the next couple of years. Came across this guy and was wondering if anyone could help me out with an opinion.





 
He's on sale for around 20k.

Thanks!


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

he's nice, but it looks like the rider is fighting with him the whole course. But I think that's fixable. He's nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

^^^That's what I thought. Especially during the second segment of the video. The rider was really fighting with him. He certainly looks good, though! I like him a lot.


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## hsharp123 (Mar 22, 2007)

A lack of control and breaks, he's talented and I think that's the riders saving grace! He would jump a lot nicer if he were on his hocks and not running off all the time! 
He may not be the best horse to teach somebody to go up the levels as he looks a difficult ride but he's still nice! 
H
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I like him a *lot*. Jumps in wonderful form, clearly does have scope to spare. Clearly is tolerant of an amateur rider. 

I also suspect he's a lot more ridable than the video might indicate. Notice that while the rider was pulling and fighting with him down to the fences; he never missed a distance? As a matter of fact, he jumped from very consistent, huntery distances. I think he's a smart horse who's learned to ignore the silly rider pulling on him and go to his fences the way he knows best. 

I'm not familiar with the market and prices; but it *seems* like a fair price.


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## shirraz (Apr 20, 2010)

*Thanks!*

Thanks guys for your replies. Good comments! I'm hoping he's more ridable than the video suggests as I'm also an intermediate / amateur rider. Here's him taking a novice around a jumping course:


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## hsharp123 (Mar 22, 2007)

See now I like him more! I think he rides nicely for her as she is leaving him alone and letting him do his job at a small height! This is exactly what my boy is like for a novice at this height! . Dudum dudum jump! Hehe
my boy took me from 75cm to 1.15m but when the fences got bigger he was completely untollerant of me missing him or over checking him and we did have quite a learning curve! Thank fully he had taught me so well smaller so I was a much better rider as we got bigger! So you may find it the same with this boy! Let us know how you find him when you have a try! I have a feeling yourl never wana get off! Lol ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

ooooo i love that horse now! haha i watched the video twice because i never got tired of how nicely he carried a rider around the course and how nicely he jumped! i would buy him.


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

What a lovely horse! I love him. He looks like such a nice ride. I would buy him in a second.


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

I like him in that last video a whole lot. The rider is much kinder with her hands and he is obviously responding to that. Love his nice steady canter between jumps, looks like he will go when asked but not try and speed off on his rider.


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## dantexeventer (Jul 11, 2009)

I like him, but the rider needs to let go of his head! Make sure to get a good vetting on him, with x-rays - 20k is not an amount of money you want to trifle with, haha!


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## dantexeventer (Jul 11, 2009)

BTW, how tall is he? He looks giiiiant!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Tee hee. The second video sort of validates what I thought of the first. The first rider was just getting into his face a little too much. The second rider was just letting him carry her to the fences and choose his distances and he was much happier. 

I *really* like him; I think he's a lovely horse. He absolutely *knows* what lick to carry to his fences, and has a metronome like canter. I also like the fact that they haven't put a lot of controlling tack on him - looks like a plain snaffle and no martingale. I think he's just the ticket if you're starting out in jumpers; and I would think he'd be respectable in the hunters as well with a quiet ride.

Of course, dantexeventer is right on target about the vetting. I would bind him over on full mortality and loss of use insurance myself, but that of course is a personal preference. 
'


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## shirraz (Apr 20, 2010)

Maura, I was hoping you would post again, I thought your first post was really insightful 

He's 17hh, which is perfect because I'm 6 feet and need a big boy. Will hopefully be able to try him out next week... my trainer can't come with me so have to feel it out on my own. Trainer doesn't seem too enthusiastic about him, not sure why... maybe because I found him on my own.

Will keep you posted! Thanks again for all your help, always nerve wracking looking at horses especialy when you aren't an expert so I appreciate the support.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

shirraz, 

You didn't say whether or not your trainer has seen the videos; but I will tell you when my students approached me about a horse they had found on their own and were excited about I was always pretty much of a wet blanket  until I had seen the horse go myself. 

It's an occupational hazard, having looked at a lot of unsuitable, mis-represented half-cripples that clients had fallen in love with based on limited information. Also remember it's your trainers job to be dispassionate and give you the rational pros and cons; rather than be caught up in your excitement. 

I suspect he/she will have a different attitude when they see the horse go ...
though, again, I tried to contain my excitement until after the trial and vetting. 

I had forgotten that the horse measures a legit 17hh; and that you need a horse that size - height normally increases price. 

Keep us posted!


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## shirraz (Apr 20, 2010)

haha - maura I'm conviced you are a genius, your advice is that good. Not sure if my trainer has checked out the video, I will force her to this week. To be fair some of my first horses I picked and showed her were completely unsuitable so she has legitmate reason to be skeptical  I agree with all your points on her looking out for my best interests, I know she is, she will have to live with my choice as much as I will!

Thanks again.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

shirraz, 



> maura I'm conviced you are a genius, your advice is that good


And your perception and judgment are improving with every post! ROFL.

In the spirit of full disclosure, here's what informs my advice:

I am an ex-professional or a fat middle-aged has been, take your pick of terms. I started out with hunters, because that was my background as a junior, and later did eventing and jumpers, with a little dabbling in dressage. I made my full time living from horses for 20 years, the last 8 of which I ran a boarding/training/lesson barn. My speciality was safe fun first horses for juniors and amateurs. 

At 40 years of age, I chose marriage, family and working life as a resident of the corporate cube farm and relegated horses painfully to part-time. 

5 years ago my husband and I bought propery and I happily have horses at home. 

Based on the videos, I would have loved to have had this horse in my barn. Please do post updates.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

The only fault I see in him is that he gets really close with his knees and doesn't seem to have much clearance. I also agree that he was jumping clear despite his rider in the first video, not because of her. But he is definitely scopey and knows his job so if he's good enough to jump just clear every time then good for him! I definitely think he will give you a run for your money without pushing you past your limits and I would LOVE to steal him for a lesson horse! Do keep us posted as to how your trial ride goes!


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## shirraz (Apr 20, 2010)

I will definetly let you all know how it goes next week. Best not to get my hopes up about anything I guess 

Here's one last video of him on the flat in case anyone is bored


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Hmmmmmmmmm. 

Still love him and want him in my barn; but the last video adds an interesting dimension. 

Clearly doesn't have a problem doing flatwork in a more dressagey frame; and from the previous videos I would have suspected otherwise. (Seemed to want to go in an almost exaggerated hunter frame with head and neck extended.) However, he is being ridden in a pelham converter, which is a vile piece of tack that serves no useful purpose. And while being ridden in that vile piece of tack, seems really backed off the bit (pretty much a good thing.)

Finally, he *clearly* adapts to his rider - the last rider is the most elementary of the group, and he was very mellow, even when she was pumping and driving with her seat at the canter. 

Go see him already, you're killing me.


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## shirraz (Apr 20, 2010)

Ok - this is a very late reply to the thread I posted. Apologies for that.

I went to see him a couple of weeks ago, and unfortunately it didn't go well. He's a really cute guy but to me felt a little stiff / hard to bend and had a tendency to look around a lot. He ended up spooking pretty badly and I ended up on the ground  I am still a pretty novicey rider as I'm just getting back into things so I'm not trying to lay the blame on him - more just I think we weren't a good fit.

I'm going to ride a new guy this week, I saw him compete last weekend and he's very cute. He's 6 though so will need to see if his tempermant suits a greener rider as well. 

Here's a video of him in case anyone wants to help out with a critique.





 
Thanks as always!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Nice horse. Adequate scope. Doesn't jump in as consisently good form as the previous horse. Doesn't really strike me as an ammy horse.

I suspect that this horse is greener or requires more riding than you might assume at first glance. Here's why: the rider in this video is a professional. If you watch the video, you'll see several places where the horse has too much pace or stride to the fence and the rider sits behind the motion to retard his stride. In other places he sits quietly, and once or twice he moved the horse up to the fence. This tells you the horse doesn't maintain or recognize a good jumping lick on his own. Sitting behind the motion to retard stride is a fairly advanced skill; is it something you feel comfortable doing? 

I also suspect the horse is hotter than he appears in the video, and that he's getting an enormously tactful ride. I would still go look at the horse, but I would be on the lookout for signs that he's less "made" than the professional rider made him appear.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Yes it takes a very skilled rider to pilot a 6 year old horse through a course like that with no rails. That rider almost rides like a dressage rider - there is so much focus on rhythm!

To the OP - it really sounds like you do need your coach to help you. It sounds like the kind of horses you are looking at are too much for you. You need to let your coach find you a very quiet schoolmaster.
Good luck!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

They both clearly have potential, however, I don't think you'll like the second horse if you didn't feel you were competant enough to handle the first. The rider of the second horse was obviously an advanced rider the way he adjusted the horse's strides so easily with his seat and assisted the horse with his balance throughout the course. If you really want to go see him, I don't see what you have to lose, but keep in mind that he is probably too much for a novice rider ;-)


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I may be wrong though, but 2nd horse looks like a very bumpy ride on jump. While the 1st one looked very smooth and rhythmic. 

shirraz, if you'd tell where you are located I'm pretty positive some people on this forum could recommend you the horses or barns to look.


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## shirraz (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks all for your replies.

The funny thing is my coach picked that second horse for me and I picked the first. I actualy did go sit on him. We were at a horse show in an outdoor ring with lots going on and he wasn't spooky or too hot at all. It was obvious that he is an advanced ride (more advanced than my current level of riding) but my coach still thinks he might be a good fit (she was there with me at the trial).

I do appreciate all of your comments as this is a confusing process for a first time buyer! I'm in Calgary, AB in case anyone has other ideas on where to look. Thanks.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

oh! I'm here to! I will keep my eye out for any jumpers. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

When you said you were an intermediate rider, I was thinking of a horse one of my students in the Toronto area has for sale

Sir Hamlet



















But when you revised your ability to novice level, I believe he may be too much horse for you.

Oh, well.....


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## dantexeventer (Jul 11, 2009)

I think the horses you've posted look like a lot of fun, and certainly, a young, scopey horse is lovely to dream about and look at - but as you mentioned that you're still a novice, you would be better suited to finding a schoolmaster type. The problem with these lovely youngsters is that while they'll go very well when you try them, this is because they're in a program with a professional. Once you're riding regularly things will begin to go a bit pear-shaped, and you will likely end up in a position where your horse has the upper hand and you lose your confidence. The best horse for you right now is something a little older - around the 12 or so age bracket, although older is fine too - that has a good show record, has piloted many young riders, and can turn a hoof to a little of everything - the jumpers, the eq, whatever. This is the horse that will allow for novice errors and will let you learn and be very confident. From there, you can progress to the fancy, upper-level potential youngster. 
I did a very quick browse on Equine.com and came across these two, who I thought looked really nice:
RICO- FANTASTIC CHILDREN'S HORSE FOR SALE | Buy this Horse at Equine.com
This one is a bit of a contradiction but may be worth a call - he has the credentials to suit you nicely but may be too much over fences, according to their statement:
Experienced Medal Horse | Buy this Horse at Equine.com
Amazing 10 yr old 17.1 Eventer/Dressage Competitor | Buy this Horse at Equine.com
Good luck with your search! Please take my advice to heart - I see so many people get caught up in the young horse dream before they're ready and it all falls apart. And do remember that when a trainer is helping you find a horse, oftentimes they have their own agenda - such as, if you buy an amazing youngster, they may be well aware that the horse will be too much for you, and they will end up making more money being paid to ride and show said horse - and getting to show a nice youngster means more exposure for them. I think you'd be better served on something YOU can go kick some *** on!


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## dantexeventer (Jul 11, 2009)

Allison, that horse is lovely, and looks strangely familiar. Do you know where his owner bought him from?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

She's had him since a youngster. She brought him from NC. He has extreme talent. He is not for beginners, however. He is at this farm in Paisley Ont. If anyone is looking for a really talented event/ jumper, here he is

Whitaker Stables | About Us



















The owner is so busy with her sport pony breeding program, he isn't getting the attention he deserves. It would be such a waste!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Wow, Allison, he's lovely.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

maura said:


> Wow, Allison, he's lovely.


Yeah, he is. And, so talented. She offered to ship him to me for me to campaign. Sadly, I just don't have the time to do him justice either.

The owner is a talented jumper rider but is newer to dressage. Here is a video of some flatwork. You can see the talent that could be brought out in him. As an eventer......YES!!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I see eventer too. But with his disposition and laid back attitude, junior or ammy owner jumper as well.

Tell your friend to send him to me!


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## MissH (Apr 10, 2010)

Oh Allison - I *heart* him! I don't have that kind of coin but if I did I'd be making the trip for sure....


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

RICO- FANTASTIC CHILDREN'S HORSE FOR SALE | Buy this Horse at Equine.com

Stunning experienced hunter/jumper | Buy this Horse at Equine.com

I was bored so found you two horses


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Stunning experienced hunter/jumper | Buy this Horse at Equine.com


She's absolutely lovely!


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> She's absolutely lovely!


She is lovely, but successful 3"6 horses are very very rarely $15,000. The first horse anabel posted was a children's horse (3') for $20,000. That's about typical for an average children's horse in his market. The difference between a successful children's horse and a successful 3'6 horse is HUGE. A 3"6 horse with 10+ movement is usually in the 6 digit price range. There's a reason she's priced so low.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

^^^agree,


My first thought on looking at the first horse was "I don't think he'll get 3'6"" but he looks like a good do be and a wonderful children's type. 

I thought the price was suspiciously low on the mare as well.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

upnover said:


> She is lovely, but successful 3"6 horses are very very rarely $15,000. The first horse anabel posted was a children's horse (3') for $20,000. That's about typical for an average children's horse in his market. The difference between a successful children's horse and a successful 3'6 horse is HUGE. A 3"6 horse with 10+ movement is usually in the 6 digit price range. There's a reason she's priced so low.


Good to know. I'm not really good about prices on jumpers - since I likely will never buy one (too expensive), I never trace it. :lol:


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> Good to know. I'm not really good about prices on jumpers - since I likely will never buy one (too expensive), I never trace it. :lol:



Let me put it this way, there's a girl at my barn looking for a fancy large Junior (A circuit 3"6 hunter). Her budget is $125,000 and she's flown all over the country trying horses... and she's having a hard time finding one without some kind of problem in that price range. Crazy huh? John Madden said it best when he said, "It's a crazy 'reality' we live in. But it's our reality.".


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## MissH (Apr 10, 2010)

That makes $20k sound like peanuts....man.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Okay, MissH, but they're may be some confusion about the difference between hunters and jumpers, and the different divisions within them. 

A true junior hunter is the rarest of beasts and a precious commodity - $150,000 is a reasonable price to pay for a junior hunter and they've been at that price level for years. An aquaintence of mine with far more A experience and market knowledge than me has flatly stated: "There are no Children's Hunter's for sale; there just aren't any. For any price" (Children's Hunter's can be less typey than a Junior Hunter, and can be off color, but they must jump as well, be more obviously made and extremely safe.)

A junior or ammy jumper needs a different skill set and is not as hard to come by. 20K is a reasonable price for a safe, experienced junior jumper for 3'; it's stretching a little to find one who can do 3'6" for that price but it is not impossible. What you usually sacrifice is movement and sometimes ridability. A competitive junior hunter has to be able to win or pin in the hack which means they're a dressage quality mover; a junior jumper can move like a egg beater and still be competitive. So there are a lot of decent 3' - 3'6" horses available in the jumpers, but they're pretty scarce in the hunters. 

The tip off that there's some wrong in the second ad was that they said the mare was a 10+ mover. 

Disclaimer: upnover's info is a lot more current than mine.


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## MissH (Apr 10, 2010)

No confusion at all really. Was more referring to my own budgetary constraints then anything else....the fact someone is looking at a budget of $125k is just sort of wild to me, although understandable for what they want.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I'm sorry. Faulty asssumption on my part.

And I hear you about the money! It's not in my budget either! I think the most I ever paid for a horse, personally, was $2000. I showed one of my free horses in the 3'6" schooling jumpers.

I sure wouldn't mind the first horse in this thread coming to live in my barn if someone else stroked the check, though. Even though I can't afford to play in that league.


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## MissH (Apr 10, 2010)

No worries! Just a little sticker shock on my part. Imagine not having a mortgage? LOL! I'm by no means broke, but I'm just not in the same league. 

For the record though, I think your post in regards to the differences was great!


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

I do agree with you MissH! While I can just shrug and tell people if they really want a nice junior hunter that's just the price they're going to have to pay... There's something crazy about the fact that their horse costs more then house, and their annual insurance to cover their horse is more then my car.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

upnover said:


> Let me put it this way, there's a girl at my barn looking for a fancy large Junior (A circuit 3"6 hunter). Her budget is $125,000 and she's flown all over the country trying horses... a*nd she's having a hard time finding one without some kind of problem in that price range.* Crazy huh? John Madden said it best when he said, "It's a crazy 'reality' we live in. But it's our reality.".


I'm just curious then what kind of horse that should be? I mean the criteria to choose the right one.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Like Maura was saying, a true Junior Hunter is a rare beast and a precious commodity! The Junior Hunters is a 3"6 division for those 18 y/o and younger with horses that are 16hh and up (smaller would be the Small Jr division, also at 3"6). It needs to be a beautiful mover, impeccable jumper, plenty of stride to get down the lines, with a nice clean lead change. Most likely it will be a very attractive warmblood (possibly TB). The kids who show in the juniors are usually very accomplished and have moved up the ranks of the A circuit showing around the country to get to where they are. IMO it's often one of the most competitive divisions of the show. A horse that is able to be successful in that crowd with a kid is worth its weight in gold! (almost literally! ) So since this kid's budget is *only* $125k the horses she's look at have had soundness issues, are older and on their way down, green with the potential to do 3"6, or too complicated to ride. What makes it harder for her is that she is tall with a very long leg, and still growing. So a few horses may have worked for her, but were too small.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Sorry, just wanted to clarify, the LARGE Junior division is 16h and up. Horses smaller then 16h are Small juniors.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

upnover said:


> Like Maura was saying, a true Junior Hunter is a rare beast and a precious commodity! The Junior Hunters is a 3"6 division for those 18 y/o and younger with horses that are 16hh and up (smaller would be the Small Jr division, also at 3"6). It needs to be a beautiful mover, impeccable jumper, plenty of stride to get down the lines, with a nice clean lead change. Most likely it will be a very attractive warmblood (possibly TB). The kids who show in the juniors are usually very accomplished and have moved up the ranks of the A circuit showing around the country to get to where they are. IMO it's often one of the most competitive divisions of the show. A horse that is able to be successful in that crowd with a kid is worth its weight in gold! (almost literally! ) So since this kid's budget is *only* $125k the horses she's look at have had soundness issues, are older and on their way down, green with the potential to do 3"6, or too complicated to ride. What makes it harder for her is that she is tall with a very long leg, and still growing. So a few horses may have worked for her, but were too small.


Wow! It's really hard to believe there are almost no horses like you described out there. I guess "uncomplicated" and "child horse" are the key words there. Well, I wish her luck then in finding one!


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