# Found out my horse has Navicular...



## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

So I just found out that my gelding has navicular and I was wondering if anyone could shed insight on it? He was lame slightly on both fronts at a trot but if he was going clockwise it was more prominent on the right front and vise versa in the opposite direction. He needs his shoes or else he is dead lame without them. He has also foundered in the passed. 

He's only 12 years old and I got him in November and I don't recall him ever being lame then. 

Can anybody shed some light on the disease or give me your expierences? He's getting 60 pills of Isoxsuprine a day for life and 2 weeks of bute am+pm, then only bute in Am, then being switched to previcox.

I'm pretty bummed as this was my go to horse for everything but now he is limited to what he can do. =( can't jump or do barrels,,gah. Totally sucks. Atleast the upside is he's still rideable!
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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Some farriers can work a navicular hoof to the point of soundness without the use of bute or pills. Look into your area for farriers who understand the condition and are comfortable with correct angles. 

We're X-rays taken?
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## Freemare (Jun 2, 2012)

It means his coffin bone is starting to move. Its not a good thing and he could be un rideable in the near future. I know of a few people that use to give anti inflammatory pills. It helps keep the swelling down and tare on the foot. Make sure to cool his legs down after you ride. You can only do light riding. Like a easy trail ride.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Vet told me he can do small jumps but no barrels. She didn't take X-rays but she suspects that's what the issue is. If the meds don't work she is going to come back out and take X-rays and possibly do a nerve block. She put hoof testers on him and he was pretty sensitive around the navicular. (I think that's it. I'm not UTD on terms) 


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Wow.

Ok, here is my suggestion. 

Get your farrier out, tell him to shorten the toe and raise the heel. 
Ask for an aluminum wedge shoe. You can go w/ the lower degree for now but definitely go w/ the wedge.

See what happens with that, the horse may go perfectly sound.

Do the isoxsuprine and the bute for now but you may not need the isoxsuprine at that level forever, you may actually be able to drop down to 1 or 2 pills per day or even none. That is true for the bute as well, depending on the level of navicular your horse is suffering from. It sounds to me that it may be fairly early on. Some horses will continue to degenerate where others will level off. I know 2 people off the top of my head that rode and competed their navicular horses well into their 20's. Both were dressage horses, one jumped at the 4 foot level and was rarely lame. 

One had a wedge shoe, the other a wedge and a pad (the one that jumped).

I would suggest getting the vet back out to do the nerve block. If your horse go's sound with it, then get the x-rays to see just what you are dealing with. Navicular is a compression sort of thing that ends damages the navicular bone.

If it's a rotated coffin bone then that is from the founder. I don't have a ton of experience with founder but I do have a friend that had a horse founder last summer. After a year off and some farrier work, she is sound but I don't know what was done for it.

If this is navicular there is an amazing drug called tildren that you should ask your vet about. (The expense is high). But do try the wedge shoes... my suggestion.

Good luck.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

She said she wants to talk to my farrier about the shoes. She was suggesting he be in an onion Shoe or an eggbar shoe but wants to discuss with my farrier the types of shoes he works with and go from there. I thought this was alot of meds for him to be on all at once. She said its fairly common and I'm assuming its not that bad of a case cause she told me it was okay if I was still riding him without any meds but did say he has heel pain so definitely needs something to help. 

I'm at such a loss. I paid $2500 for this horse and the owner didn't even know he foundered not had Navicular. My own stupidity for not getting a PPE but I'm totally depressed right now. He's a really great horse and if alls I am going to be able to do with him in the near future is walk around then he won't be fitting into what I want to do-riding wise. 

The vet said she wants him put on previcox as well after we finish with the bute. So he'll be on previcox 1-2 pills a day along with the 60 pills of isox. Don't get me wrong, I have no expierences with this, but to me it feels like a ton of meds. But I understand they're needed. 

Ugh. I just feel so discouraged right now.
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I believe that there are nevicular horses out there competing and the navicular is being managed. I wouldn't give up on him yet. Yes it's a difficult thing, it doesn't mean it's a complete death sentence for his riding career...


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I would get a second opinion & for sure x-rays before worrying too much. Without x-rays it's only a guess as to what the problem is. Heck, sometimes even with x-rays it's hard to tell.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

I know a girl who jumps her navicular horse. She has a wonderful farrier and the horse is completely sound without nerve blocking. She competes him cross country.

I'm paranoid about navicular because there are so many different directions to take when it comes with treatment. My suggestion is to become an expert on the condition. Educate yourself on everything that revolves around the condition so you understand it possibly better than your vet could.

Many navicular horses compete pain free. You just have to manage angles and shoes.
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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I had mare with navicular, her X-rays showed her navicular bones on both fronts full of holes. I never put her any meds, but had a good farrier put eggbars & pads on her year round. She never took a lame step & I showed this mare hard for 10 years & had 2 foals with her. I sold her to someone who had her for a year & she went dead lame at 17, they tried several different farriers from the recommendation of my farrier. Nothing worked & she was put down at 18 years old. Whether it was improper farrier work or the disease just progressed, who knows?
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Nerve blocks, x-rays, meds, shoeing/trimming. In THAT order...not the other way around. How can a vet guess navicular......* shakes head*. Especially in your case, after the founder and possible rotation, raising the heel for navicular will mess him up good.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Can you explain more about nerve blocks. Are the permanent? and in what conditions are they used.?

my firned's QH is often "off", and we think it's due to him having really underrun heels for years , but not sure. He's had a lot of special shoeing done, and some injections (not nerve blocks). I think some kind of either steroid or something like adequan. not sure.

But, he seem MORE comfy on firm ground than in the arena. and is almost always just a tiney bit off. I wonder if he is a candidate for a nerve block.


not meaning to hijack. Just want to know more about nerve blocks, since it is part of the OP's possible situation.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

A nerve block is a diagnostic tool. The vet blocks( sedates so to speak) a certain nerve, and if the horse is clear with that block, isn't lame, vet knows where exactly the problem is.
Not to be mixed up with neurectomy, which means the nerve that leads to the navicular bone is being cut, so the horse doesn't feel anything in that foot.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm not sure how she came up with this diagnosis. I just feel like she was so quick to throw him on a bunch of meds which I am not happy for. I want to get a second opinion but I'm not trying to up the vet bills right now unless I can pay them off. I don't wana get ok far behind but I'm very skeptical about putting him on all these meds right off the bat.
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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Also, can the isox pills be crushed? He gets 30 at a time and he tends to drop alittle food here an there so thought maybe it would be better to crush them.
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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Unfortunately, as per vet advisement, xrays don't always show anything amiss. The navicular diagnosis is a bit of a blanket statement that may or may not involve the navicular bone.


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## NRW (Feb 26, 2013)

I have a mare with severe Navicular disease. When I first bought her(in December) she was misdiagnosed with a White Line infection..which she also had when I got her, but the farrier thought that was the only problem with her. She continued to be lame after white line infection had been treated, so I took her for x-rays...first vet thought the problem was due to her having thin soles on her feet and the white line infection she was recovering from. He suggested putting her on Rocker shoes.
The Rocker shoes helped a lot. But she was still lame. I took her to a more widely known vet that is recommended in my area. The vet I now use picked up that she had Navicular disease, from the x-rays the first vet took, right away. She didn't blame the problem on the thin soles or white line at all..she said it made it worse, but was not the root of the problem. 

I suggest you take your horse to the vet and have x-rays done. The lateral x-rays and the navicular bone x-rays. 

When I had my x-rays done on my mare I found out that her bone is so messed up from no treatment for several years(before I owned her) she will not be good for anything other than being a pasture ornament... Which made me very mad, because my first vet and farrier both agreed that she would be sound enough for trail riding and whatever I wanted to do on her.
Her navicular bone has a lot of calcification and bone spurs on it. It also has caused the shape of her other bones to alter. She has calcification on one of her tendons on top of it all. And is still facing the issue with thin soles on her feet. 

She will be on Rocker shoes for the rest of her life, no matter how long or short that may be..... and she's only 11 years old, with such a poor diagnosis.


I definitely suggest getting x-rays/radiographs taken of your horses feet. I know they can tell a lot more about whats going on with the horse, than a couple well educated guesses from looking at the outside. 


and my mare is also on Previcox. I have noticed it helps her, she is happier just walking around, but I think it causes her to think she feels better than she does. So now I think she needs to go see a chiropractor. 
I have never had her nerves blocked, or her nerves cut, or the bursa injections. She's just on Previcox.


Having a Navicular horse is expensive  


Hopefully with some x-rays on your horse's feet they find the problem to be something else less stressful and with a better out look on life.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Yes, I am starting to see that he's going to be quite expensive and I am NOT happy. I paid a pretty penny for him too.
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## NRW (Feb 26, 2013)

Cowgirls Boots said:


> Yes, I am starting to see that he's going to be quite expensive and I am NOT happy. I paid a pretty penny for him too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm thankful I didn't pay too much for my mare...500$...she was in awful condition and hadn't been rode in sometime. So I thought she just needed some TLC and feed. I won't be buying a horse from an individual under those circumstances again... 

If possible, have the x-rays done on your horse, and have the vet write out a report on what all is wrong with him. Then present it to the people you bought him from, if they have any shame or understanding...or care for the horse...I would think they would at the very least refund some of your money. 
Especially since he is not sound. If you have any proof of them selling him to you as sound, then I would also use that against them. 
Just let them know how much it will cost for the up keep of the horse now that you're aware of the problem. 
Or if they're interested in taking the horse back(and you trust them to take care of him properly) and refunding your money, I would definitely do that...


Either way, I would have x-rays done. X-rays can tell you a lot more than the outside.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

A part of me wants to let the lady know what's up. I don't have a bill of sale or anything on him though. She bought him from a broker and used him heavily as a lesson/trail horse for 8 months and by the time I got him he needed a bit of tlc. 

She had no idea he foundered and when I rode him before I bought him he was completely sound. I pulled his shoes and this is where it all went down hill. I would like to say something to her and see what she would say but I doubt she would take him back. Although, a part of me would like to give him back and a part of me doesn't want to. Not totally sure what to do there. She didn't even have shots done on the horse for Christ sake. I had to have them all done and she is someone who I knew previously before I bought him. I doubt she knew any of this, though.
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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

You have a lot of great advice here and I really can't add anything that hasn't been said already. I just wanted to wish you the best and keep us updated. (I will stress getting xrays though).


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

There is a poster here.. Loosie.. find her and ask her to post on this thread. 

I believe the common cure of raising the heels is not what is always the cure. There is a lot more to this than there used to be. It isn't all that it seems.....

My information on the subject is old and outdated.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I sent her a Pm yesterday as I know she is extremely knowledgeable.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

You had x-rays done of the hooves correct? How far up does the xray go? (I have no idea where this particular disease occurs other than low on the leg) But at this point with all that the horse has been diagnosed with I would get a better vet with a second opinion with xrays. If the vet just decided it was navicular after knowing he has coffin bone rotation without further xrays? I would get a new vet.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I spoke with another vet at the same practice whom I like alot better. 

She took X-rays of my guys feet in January but they do no reveal the navicular so we had no idea. The X-rays only showed his rotation. 

Yesterday she did a lameness exam on him and took hoof testers to him and he was very sensitive with the testers near the navicular. Both vets said the X-rays can either reveal he has navicular or it could show nothing. She suspects its navicular as every sign points to it. 

Im going to try new shoes as she recommended and let the meds kick in. Then I am going to have her back out in a month or so and do another lameness exam and X-rays to see how it's going.
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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Then present it to the people you bought him from, if they have any shame or understanding...or care for the horse...I would think they would at the very least refund some of your money.


firstly, you've had him for a while. he was sound to the best of you and the sellers knowledge when he was purchased. You chose not to have a PPE. In my mind, the above suggestion is not an option. horses get sick, go lame, develop issues all the time. 

secondly - you do not have a diagnosis, at all. there was nothing done to prove or disprove navicular. unless your vet is an alien with magical x-ray vision, navicular is a guess at this point. Having a vet automatically claim its navicular with no testing is like telling a doctor a list of your symptoms and him diagnosing you with an inoperable brain tumor, with out doing any kind of tests or scans, then handing you a prescription and telling you to enjoy the rest of your life. GET A SECOND OPPINION. and as was mentioned, some tests done.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Testers show pain in the heel area. That's it. Nothing more. Without x-rays it's all a guess. 
He could have abscesses, he could have a crushed digital cushion, could be anything. As I said, shoeing him for navicular could severely damage his rotated coffinbone. Then you are REALLY in trouble.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Okay, I just called and am making an appt for X-rays. I just want a peace of mind and to get to the bottom of this.
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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

My young horse was diagnosed navicular too. The vet recommended special shoes. I called my farrier first; she suggested I try "her" vet who could take on-site x-rays. Not a sign of trouble at the navicular! However, some ringbone starting; heels too high, thin soles. My farrier found, later, a big abscess, and did a cut-and-cast which resulted in instant soundness.

So many things can go wrong! But there's so much you can do these days too! One thing: the second vet said, "Stop the bute." He also said a little pain was good, it helped the horse favor what needed to heal.

Don't give up on special barefoot trimming. Shoes can be a quick fix, but also, a dead-end, in a way.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Cowgirls Boots said:


> Okay, I just called and am making an appt for X-rays. I just want a peace of mind and to get to the bottom of this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's a good start but I question using a vet from the same clinic as there may be some loyalty involved, as in one may not to over ride another's diagnosis. 
Do you have any pictures of your horse's legs/feet?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I am using the same vet who diagnosed him. The one I spoke to said everything she had told me to start sounds lik a good start but being he doesn't know me or my horse he's only judging by what he hears me say over the phone. 

I have pics of his front hooves. Gimme one sec to pull em up..
I know he has long toes and under run heels and flares but they were way worse when I got him. 









































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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Navicular is a diagnosis that a lot of vets are fairly quick to make, even with out x-rays and that is because they are using it as a general term (heel pain). Getting your horse off the heel is going to help remove the concussion and will alleviate some and maybe even all the pain but the poster that mentioned the fact that it may not be a good idea without x-rays due to the founder was correct.

I forgot about the founder. If the coffin bone has rotated then there is still hope but the way the farrier works with the hoof may be different. You really are going to need the x-rays. You could even skip the nerve block if you are certain the pain is in the heel because you know the founder happened so you'll need to check the coffin bone anyway.

X-rays are usually around $10-20 per x-ray and I think for navicular you'll need at least 4 per hoof, hopefully a founder x-ray is the same type of x-ray and you can kill two birds with one stone.

I'm still not sure I agree with the idea of permanent meds. I think with the right farrier, you may be able to manage this at a lower cost then you are thinking (depending on the severety). You will have some days where you'll need pain meds and you'll have days where, if you show, or ride for long periods of time, you'll want to use the pain meds for precaution.

If it turns out there is no issue with the coffin bone and your issue is with the navicular then try the tildren shot at approximately $1200. It is an amazing drug.

And don't beat yourself up over the pre-purchase exam. For $2500, I probably would not have gotten one either.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I've had X-rays done before and they're I think $40 per shot and they charge you a fee to bring the dang thing out. I'm currently awaiting a call back from the vet to see when is a good time for her to do them.
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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Cowgirls Boots said:


> I've had X-rays done before and they're I think $40 per shot and they charge you a fee to bring the dang thing out. I'm currently awaiting a call back from the vet to see when is a good time for her to do them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel for you. My farm call is $75 and then my exam fee is like $30 and it seems they charge you for every thing they do so my bill is never less than $200.

Do you know what the rotation if any on the coffin bone is?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

It was only 1-2 degrees
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Only 1-2 degrees, but it was never fixed. It wouldn't surprise me if this is the culprit.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

How old are the x-rays on the coffin bone? I truly believe your answer is going to be in a really good farrier.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Just for clarification I did not have him when he foundered. I got him that way and I suspect he foundered awhile ago. I'm having X-rays done on Friday. The vet told me that if he wast responding to treatment that we would go ahead and take X-rays so she had questioned why I wanted them done when he was only just out on the meds so I told her receptionist about what DHW said about if he's shoed for navicular and it isn't it could cause more damage an I would like clarity on the matter. 

Farmpony- the X-rays of the coffin were done in January so they're 5 months old.
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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

I wonder if you don't have abscesses or founder related pain? My mare isn't always sensitive just in the toe with her laminitis. She also abscessed on all four, but did it one at a time, without a lot of heat or other symptoms except lameness until the abscess blew at the coronal band. The barefoot trimmer I work with seems to think that an abscess is pretty normal any time the hoof shape is changed dramatically by trimming or shoeing. I don't think pain alone is a good way to diagnose navicular, particularly in a horse known to have other painful hoof conditions. I don't think response to the "treatment" means much either. I've definitely heard of isoxsuprine being prescribed for laminitis, and the bute should make the horse feel better no matter what he has. I might try to get a second opinion from another vet, maybe using the old radiographs.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Cowgirls Boots said:


> Just for clarification I did not have him when he foundered. I got him that way and I suspect he foundered awhile ago. I'm having X-rays done on Friday. The vet told me that if he wast responding to treatment that we would go ahead and take X-rays so she had questioned why I wanted them done when he was only just out on the meds so I told her receptionist about what DHW said about if he's shoed for navicular and it isn't it could cause more damage an I would like clarity on the matter.
> 
> Farmpony- the X-rays of the coffin were done in January so they're 5 months old.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good! 
As you see, it could be a multitude of things, and he's been lame eversince you got him, basically. I think it's time to really find out what's wrong, and treat it, instead of trying one more " therapy" based on a good, or not, guess.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I rely wish I could fork out the $$ for a second opinion but I am literally broke after this. I have to make payments to the vet because I do not have it all upfront. I know I may sound like a bad horse owner but as much as I wana get a second opinion I really cannot afford it and get way over my head in bills I can't pay. :/
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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

I say those toes are to long and heels are under run that needs fixing that in it self will cause issues.


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

Not having money doesn't make you a bad horse person. I think the cheapest thing to do that is most likely to help is to go buy a hoof rasp ($25) and back those toes up. Lots of websites can show you how to do the trim properly, but the main thing is to get the toes shorter and not to leave any sharp edges that can chip and crack. Doing that will help founder or navicular either one. (Not overnight though). A barefoot trimmer isn't terribly expensive either (Bettina charges $40/mo), but this is something you can learn to do.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

The vet is going to speak with my farrier about how she wants my guy to be trimmed. He is due in 3 weeks but I am having him done next week when I get my paycheck. His toes were really long when I got him so they're come a (semi) long way in terms of trying to get the farrier to shorten them up. But I do realize we still have to get them shorter.
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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Okay, I didn't read all the replies, so I may be repeating what has already been said. I'd have x-rays done to find out exactly what's going on there. If it is, in fact, Navicular, then like others have said, it's not a death sentence.

We had a horse that was diagnosed with Navicular at the age of 5. When we got him, he could barely walk at all. With some time and proper foot care (standing him up and shortening his toes for faster breakover), he came in sound and remained so for about 20 years. Dad team-roped on him for years after his diagnosis and my brother and I both used him for ranch work.

You might talk with your farrier about having him try to square off the toes of a normal shoe (to look like a natural balance shoe, but much easier to shape to the horse's hoof). See if that helps at all.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I just wanted to say thank you to all who has been helping me! I was completely bummed and depressed about this when I heard the news yesterday so thank you for those who have helped. I'm praying my guy will be one of the lucky ones who will stay sound with the proper maintenance. 

I was thinking that he would just be rendered useless sometime in the near future which I am hoping will not happen. 

Now, the vet told me all he can do is light riding. No barrels and minimal jumping. No super rocky terrain and riding in soft surfaces. But, I've read where horses were aloud to go back to there normal performance after the navicular was squared away.
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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

There is another "do it yourself" test that you can try at the barn with a 2x4 board.

Stand his toe on the edge of a board and hold his free leg up. Have another person slowly lift the other end of the board. If the horse slams the lifted leg down to release the pressure of the foot that's on the board, you have a winner. 

Lifting the board while his toe is on the edge will increase pressure on the navicular bone, and if the area is sensitive, he will respond instantly.

Navicular is such a hard condition to diagnose. Truthfully, X-rays can be clear as day and show nothing, but the horse can still come up navicular. The reason for this is because, as someone else has already stated, navicular disease is a blanket term. It's not a disease, it's a condition. Many different factors can cause navicular syndrome, but they all have one thing in common: the navicular bone.

He may not slam his hoof down. Doesn't mean he's not navicular. He may not respond to hoof testers. Doesn't mean he's not navicular. The X-rays may show nothing. Doesn't mean he's not navicular. He may have 2 out of three tests come up positive for navicular, but one test failed. Or vice versa.

Navicular is such a ghost condition that its often hard to really diagnose. But once you do learn where the pain is and why, you can usually have a functioning animal after some therapy and adjustments.

How is he walking? Does he touch down toe first? Do some heavy research on what a navicular hoof looks like. Compare it to you horses hooves.

When I was panicking about my horse being navicular (turns out she wasnt) I buried myself in online information and research. The typical flares, the subtle hoof "deformities", how to identify under run heels... There's a ton of information out there that is at your fingertips. 

The fact that he has foundered in the past is a double whammy. I feel aweful this has happened. A $2500 horse is an expensive one in these parts and I would expect a sound animal for that price. I saw a navicular horse go for $100, and he was sound with shoes.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Ps sorry for any typoes. I am typing from my phone it's she's an auto-correct scum bag.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Copperhead said:


> There is another "do it yourself" test that you can try at the barn with a 2x4 board.
> 
> Stand his toe on the edge of a board and hold his free leg up. Have another person slowly lift the other end of the board. If the horse slams the lifted leg down to release the pressure of the foot that's on the board, you have a winner.
> 
> ...


Amen....


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Navicular just means caudal heel pain to most vets. ANY heel pain. Ive even seen some with thrush or crushed heels diagnosed with navicular and they certainly had no bone damage, just poor hoof form and movement. Some have even been euthanized because no one knowledgeable was available to help point out the obvious issues. Can yo uimagine? Euthanized for THRUSH!

Just about every vet slaps "navicular on every horse with heel pain X rays or not. Few vets are educated enough on hooves at all. I know several who will admit they know very little about trimming and hooves. Its just not taught unless they seek more education past vet school. Some horses can be sound with horrid X rays and some lame with perfect ones too. Improper hoof form leading to improper movement is the numbe r one cause of navicular symptoms. But guess what. Its usually 100% fixable if you catch it early and have a good farrier who can put a great trim on the foot and shoe or not shoe as needed. 

Jacking up the heels is a palliative old school measure and should be reserved for horses where nothing else is helping because there WILL be a point where you can go no higher and the horse can no longer find relief signalling the beginning of the end for most of them. Navicular is often degenerative when the cause is not treated. 

Generic "heel pain", with and without X ray proof, can often be stopped in its tracks simply be improving hoof form, strengthening the digital cushion and improving the way the horse goes. He should go slightly heel first and have a short toe and short breakover with a well developed firm Digital Cushion. Thrush should be treated and he should be out moving around, not in a stall. 

Here is the proper course of action if you want to stop it in its tracks. All of you. Dont take the first opinion. Seek out an ELPO certified farrier who will map the foot and read the X rays and get the heels and toes back where they belong. Shoe as needed with cushioning pads to help angle and stimulate the DC. Will it help them all? No. But a vast many are improved and many more "cured" of this heel pain

The long and short is Get the feet well trimmed. You have long heels and long toes here and that alone will cause heel pain and I suspect 90% of the problem for this horse show here. 

Want to hear something that will blow your minds? Most "navicular" is man made.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

What are the chances that a horse can resume there normal work regime after proper trimmings, etc?
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

depends on what the actual problem is. Navicular isnt typically the actual problem, just a term for heel pain. Something is actually causing the heel pain and it usually is poor hoof form/function. Regain that and often the horse can and will go totally sound and retain it for years. Takes a farrier who can map a foot and recognize the real problem and an owner who isnt willing to accept the bandaid (wedging is a bandaid) and is willing to make the changes the horse may need to develop his foot better or heal it.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Thanks Trinity. I'm not sure if its the meds kicking in already or what but they added a horse into our pasture today and he usually NEVER (and I really mean never) runs around. I think I've seen it twice in the 7 months I've owned him. He was galloping around having a grand old time. And when it was time to go back out he trotted off to find his buddies which I've never seen.
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Meds may help his feel better but you still certainly have trim problems. Don't stop seeking a non medicated fix just because he might seem to feel better now. Many horses go off all meds and many of them can and do go barefoot after a navicular DX and subsequent proper trimming.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Oh no that wasn't my intentions. I am still fixing his feet up and doing everything else. Just thought I'd share
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

sounds good!  Keep us in the loop ok?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

The vet is coming Friday to pull X-rays and sometime next week I will have him trimmed again. My vet is going to call my farrier and tell him exactly what needs to be done.
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

I hope the vet is up to speed on current trimming methods


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

So vet came out today again and he does indeed have navicular. We did nerve blocks in each hoof and they were both 100% sound with the nerve blocks. We took 6 X-rays of each hoof. Both the navicular bones have large holes (I forget the terminology they're called) I know that's not great but not sure how bad it is. The navicular is way worse in the right then the left. (Trying to read her notes so forgive me because they're very sloppy but he has moderate numerous large synov (I can't read the second word). With thin flexor surface On the LF. And the RF mild/mod numerous large synov (can't read second word again) and its mild/severe on shy line (maybe it says skyline?? Ugh I cannot read her handwriting!) 

She said if meds and shoeing don't help I may have to inject the coffin but that could also make him founder again. 

She also said she noticed in his LH he's sickle hocked with a mild fetlock drop. I cannot see it but she said I am going to have issues with his back legs in the future because of this. 

I can never win.
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

So what did she prescribe for treatment?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Same as before. Bute and isox for now. Then isox and previcox and new shoes. Either egg bars or rockers. Shorten the toe alot also.
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Show us the feet when they get done. Id recommend something like this tho. Hoofcare Today Episode 2 - Hoofcare Today

Scroll down the page and check out the video from the RFDTV links 

NBHCC - Episodes 20 - 23: Horse with mismatched feet & Navicular related issues (approx. 33 minutes)


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

It says the page I am looking for does not exist when I clicked on the link 
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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I was hoping there wouldn't be much damage. I really do like the Tildren shot and think it is worth looking into. I hope the shoes make a big difference.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm honestly not familiar with any of this so does it sound like alot of damage? I will look into the Tildren shot. Unfortunately at $300 a week I'm certainly broke after all this so it will be next to impossible to afford much else. The vet said this isn't the worst she's seen. Maybe from a 1-10 he was a 3. (I'm assuming 10 being bad I guess?)
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

The link works for me. You may need to look at it on a regular PC instead of a phone.


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## spirit88 (Jan 12, 2011)

It worked for me on my phone.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

It's still saying the page cannot be found 
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

I have no idea why it isnt working. Sorry  Its so worth seeing if you can try from somewhere else. Its a 30 min video of Gene Oveneik (sorry, I cant spell his name) shoeing a navicular horse with two mismatched feet and explaining the whys and wherefores.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

So my vet spoke with my farrier and they have decided they are going to try reverse shoes on my guy. I tried looking up info on it and pictures but not too much came up. Anyone have any expierence? Thoughts?!
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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

My mare's first set of shoes after her founder were reversed. I think the idea is similar to a heart bar without needing a special shoe, but I'm not positive. I think this is a pretty standard treatment for both laminitis and navicular. This isn't what I would do, but it's definitely a conventional treatment, so there's no reason to be alarmed about it. I'm hoping your guy recovers soon. I'm sorry to hear that he's foundered in the past and has navicular.  Horses can be so frustrating.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Well he has a 1-2 degree of rotation which the vet said she cannot 100% say is founder. She said he could have had trauma to his foot that caused the rotation. Who knows. I just call it founder. 
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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

I think that's still founder, but in that case it's mechanical, not metabolic. It may go away with the right trimming.


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

:/
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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

So the farrier came out to put my boys new shoes on. He seems really comfy in his new shoes so we will see what happens (fingers crossed). He trotted around alot today after he got them on so that's a good sign. He usually never does anything other then a fast walk. Although, the vet told my farrier that the navicular is pretty bad in his left front due to the rotation he already had. It put pressure on the navicular bone. There's no bone on bone occurring but she told him it was bad but she didn't tell me that. 😕 Although she said to me "if I had to place him on a scale of 1-10 he'd be a 3" But I'm not sure if 1 is good and 10 is bad, or vice versa. *sigh* I guess we will see. I pray that he stays sound long term.
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## TheatricalAffair (Jun 15, 2013)

Don't loose hope. My former horse foundered. 4-5 degrees in the left front, and a little less on the right. He was super sore/short strided on the left, especially circling to the right with all the weight on the outside. Trust me, I cried and cried and thought there was nothing to fix it. My farrier cut alot of the toes, put normal shoes but pushed them WAY back to ease the breakover point, put "Advance Cushion Support" followed by pads and my horse was 100% and back to jumping 
Advance Cushion Support -> NANRIC INC. - How to Use Advanced Cushion Support


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Show us the work please. Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I will take pictures tomorrow. He's now lame in the hind end  it NEVER ends.
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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I forgot to take pictures. I've been so busy. Will do that tomorrow. 

But I just wanted to report that my guy looks like he's moving so much better since the new shoes. I still are a tiny head bob but its barely noticeable. I am going to speak with my vet and see where she would want to go from here. 

And he is no longer lame in the hind. My farrier I believe trimmed him too short. But, he always looks stiff to me dispite being on Cosequin. My vet told me his hind looks fine but to me he looks stiff. I've been known to imagine things, though. 

Today is one of the only days since I've found out he has navicular that there has been a light of good news. Hopefully there will be more to come!
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## 4hoofbeat (Jun 27, 2013)

I've heard of natural hoof trimmers doing wonders too. A friend of mine has an older gelding that has navicular, and with the help of an awesome natural hoof care farrier is doing amazingly awesome. The hard part is finding the good ones.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Okay- here are "before" and "current" hoof pictures. I know he still has a long way to go for them to be perfect but to me I think I see some good improvement. Maybe? Lol

Before:

























Current: (excuse the muddy wetness monstrosity, the weather here sucks!)

















and just so you guys can see how crappy his feet looked when I got him:











Also, does anyone know what this could be?? It's a crack at the way bottom of the toe. I've never seem it before. The first picture is the underside (which I've seen before) but the second picture I've never seen a crack like that! It doesn't seem to bother my guy at all. 
















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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

That looks like white line separation. Your farrier or vet didn't say ANYTHING about that? That's not okay. I'm guessing the farrier left it on to have something to shoe to? White line separation is the cause of flares and white line disease/seedy toe. I would make sure I keep that foot clean and dry for most of the day. I'd be spraying his feet with Apple Cider Vinegar 2-3 times a week to prevent any bacteria growing. I'm also not sure why he put the shoe so far back? To allow for a quicker breakover? I can't comment on the shoe job as I know nothing about shoeing a horse. I will say though that his feet are still flared. His toe needs to be backed up(past that crack) and his heel needs to be brought back just a bit more. Also, if your horse has a habit of over-reaching, I would not be surprised if he pulls a shoe.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

That wasn't there when he came out. It just started as the crack (second pic) got worse overnight. He's wearing bell boots 24/7 to try and avoid pulling a shoe. And that crack/separation isn't soft so I can't carve into it like the last time my mare got white line. I could literally carve away at the crack. 
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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

That would mean it hasn't become infected yet, but it can easily become one if he's not kept clean and dry for most of the day. What worked for you and your mare? It's good that you already have experience with this. I would definitely be using ACV or whatever you used right now as a preventative, than battling WLD again and using it as a treatment. It would make him even more uncomfortable than he is now by piling more issues on top of everything.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I have expired ACV. Would that work? I forgot to stop at the store on my way home and this was at my house
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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

I would honestly have no idea LOL. I've never run into that problem. Would it hurt? I wouldn't think so. Would it work? I don't know.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Just got the X-rays from the vet. 

Left Front-


































Right Front-
































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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Wow, you can really see the degradation of the Navicular bone. Poor guy. Surely with such extensive degradation, he would have shown lameness for his previous owner? Did they ever say anything about him being off?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

He wasn't lame with them to my knowledge. Though, anything could've happend. I bought it from a lady I knew around town. She lied about alot, though. But I rode him a week after getting him to my farm and he was sound. Then I pulled his shoes and he sat all winter and the problems arose. 

He came from a broker in Pa. That's where she bought him. The broker said he was a ranch horse from Va. Who knows though.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well I would guess that's why he was shod and was lame without shoes. Did he have any injections possibly? That's how he was sound for a while?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

He could have, I truthfully don't know. I know she's pretty cheap in regards to spending $$ on her lesson horses (that's what he was) so I doubt it but again it wouldn't surprise me if he was Injected and I wasn't told. She lied about a bunch of other things. 

Vet said if this last shoeing option doesn't work then injections are the next step. But is risky being he has rotation already.
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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

How long did she have him? Maybe if he was always shod with her, he didn't show any signs of lameness for her. I don't know, the horse selling business is always so shady. You never know whose lying or whose telling the truth.


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well if it was spend $200 on injections and sell for a couple thousand or have to give away with no injections, I can see someone who isn't truthfull to pay for injections. At this point I would really be pressuring the previous owner for more info and all vet records. It isn't fair that this was dumped on you as it is obvious this horse was affected before you purchased him.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Kayella said:


> How long did she have him? Maybe if he was always shod with her, he didn't show any signs of lameness for her. I don't know, the horse selling business is always so shady. You never know whose lying or whose telling the truth.


She only had him 8ish months and he was worked TO DEATH. He looks like straight c r a p when I bought him. Not too sure why I did buy him in the condition he was in. 
He wasn't shod when she bought him and was "ouchy" so she slapped shoes on him an he was fine. 

I HATE buying horses. It's way too sketchy.
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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

poppy1356 said:


> Well if it was spend $200 on injections and sell for a couple thousand or have to give away with no injections, I can see someone who isn't truthfull to pay for injections. At this point I would really be pressuring the previous owner for more info and all vet records. It isn't fair that this was dumped on you as it is obvious this horse was affected before you purchased him.


This lady doesn't care. She's so dumb to begin with. Then again, I know I'm at fault for not doing a PPE. If he was injected she's seriously an idiot because originally before I was told about him he was in a "lease to own" with some guy. The horse was being kept at her place still but what if the guy bought him and kept him at her place and suddenly became lame. Then what was she gonna do? She would have looked stupid!! Oh, an btw. I'm sure he has no vet records because as I said earlier- she's so cheap it's discusting. He didn't even have shots besides a rabies when I bought him. I had them all done myself. Not to mention the powerpak wormer and equimax I had to rotate and give him because he was so infested with worms. 
And the guy never ended up buying him because his son became ill. Which is when she texted me telling me he was for sale. 

Idiot people. >.<
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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

And when a seller says "ouchy" they really mean "dead lame" half the time. It's so unfortunate.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

She never told me he needed shoes so I pulled them all winter. He's totally fine at a walk but yes- dead lame at a trot. She told me this AFTER I bought him. Shoes helped alot and it was barely noticeable. But now we know the real culprit. Darn navicular. 
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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

I'd be really careful with direct injections containing steroids. They are known to aggravate laminitis, and he really, really looks like he's had it in the past, possibly even currently. He has visible flaring and white line separation, plus rotation in the x-rays. I wonder if something like Legends, which is IV and doesn't have a steroid, might help instead?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Viranah- I know he has rotation but in which foot do you see it in and how can you tell? I was asked if he was a sinker or a rotator. The vet kept calling it rotation so I assumed that's what it is.
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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

To my barely knowledgeable eye(I'm going off personal experience) it looks like the 1-2 degree rotation is in the LF. Rotation looks like the coffin bone is tipping upwards or downwards. Think of it like the hoof capsule rotating around the coffin bone, not the other way around. The bottom of the coffin bone should be almost parallel with the ground, tipped the tiniest tiniest bit downwards(This was all described to me by my vet, so I may be misinterpreting it). His LF coffin bone looks tipped down slightly more than his RF.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Does anybody see the holes under his navicular in the right foot lateral pic? Is that anything? And yes he does have the rotation In the left according to my vet.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Navicularthritis - Navicular Disease

Scroll down and it shows the progression by the looks of the bone.

Legend is supposed to be very good. Does your vet know about that?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm not sure. Everytime we spoke about injections she was refuring to steroids I believe but she kept warning me about the risk of foundering again.
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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

Kayella seems to have gotten to it ahead of me. I see it in the hoof shape itself. The hoof wall changes angle part way down. I think Loosie put the lines on a picture of your horse's hooves in an earlier post. That makes what I'm talking about easier to see. You can definitely see the separation in the pics of the bottom of his foot. He also has obvious banding in the hoof, which either means he's been under a lot of stress (ie from a disease or trauma) or a significant nutritional change (at each band). I have seen those on a lot of foundered horses. I also think I see the slight bump at the coronal band on the left front indicating some rotation, but it's a little hard to say. 

Based on that, I'd stay away from steroids. There are some alternatives, though, such as Legends IV, Adequan IM, oral supplements for joints, bute or equioxx, etc. I would get a barefoot trimmer involved in addition to these if he were my horse, but conventional management is a valid choice, and not my decision to make. 

You may at some point have to face the possibility that this horse can't really be helped. He may never be more than pasture sound again. I really hope that's not true, but there aren't any guarantees with diseases like these.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I've already figured that he's probably just going to be a pasture puff sooner then later. Unfortunately I am going to try everything I can before that but my ultimate decision may be to euth. :/ it's hard enough to afford the pills now but I cannot afford the pills + board, feed, etc for just a pasture puff. Unfortunately. 

He is on previcox right now. 

And today I cleaned his white line and put iodine in it and wrapped it up in a diaper, vet wrap, duct tape. Is the diaper okay or do you think causing more pain ?? I wasn't sure what to do so I just wrapped it.
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

There is loads of improvement that can be made here. There is flare from he hairline down in the toe and likely a stretched frog as well. He may well come sound despite the nav bone if you can get some decent farrier work. Seriously. 

Get that toe back in line with the bone since its miles away from where it needs to be, get some frog support on him and make 100% sure there is no deep sulcus thrush. He needs more support behind the widest part of the foot and the EDSS frog pads would be my go to. I answered on your other thread on HGS also. Patty is the one who will know more. I think he needs shoes for awhile but could eventually go bare possibly once these things were dealt with and a healthier form/frog/DC was achieved.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

He had extremely long toes when i got him. Problem is that he gets sulcus thrush frequently. The vet explained why but I can't remember now.
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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

He will with toes like that. It will be a never ending battle till they are in control. cotton balls and Dry cow mastitis cream. Pack them puppies


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Oh that's what I used! Worked like a charm . I told the vet he gets it frequently and then they put backwards shoes on him. Doesn't really help that at all...
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