# Conformation Critique on Warmblood



## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

I can't say anything for his conformation, but $70K seems pretty steep for a 3yr old horse with only 6wks under saddle. Seems like you can get a horse with more training and a show record for that price.


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## caseyctc (Dec 23, 2014)

@Tihannah I was quite surprised as well. He is out of one of my mares from before I purchased her but the owners had all of the proof of sale.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

He looks a nice horse. He is a bit down hill and I wish he had a bit more muscle below the point of buttock. He has good bone and is put together well. 

His jump appears scopey. I cannot tell if his forearms are up or slightly angled down. 

Any horse's market value is what someone will be willing to pay.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

He's a nice little horse (doesn't look very big for the breeding mix but maybe the guy is really tall!!) 
Not sure if he's downhill or just hasn't grown into himself yet but for a dressage or jumping horse for that money I'd want them to show a tendency to be more 'uphill' 
He jumps as if he's been 'rapped' at some time - looking down at the pole, diving over and giving it way too much space in case its going to leap up and bite him - I'd rather see him going forwards in a nice arc over it but the fact that they've placed two jumps so closely together really isn't giving him the best opportunity to do that - good way to give a horse a 'crick' in its back at this age
I wouldn't pay $70K for him.


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## KWPNowner (Sep 25, 2012)

He looks like a very nice horse. Lots of bone, well balanced, shoulder maybe a little more upright than textbook ideal, but it's nice and open. I like his hindend and depth of stifle. The German verband has high standards and I would trust a horse that they inspected and passed would be of good quality. 

It's a bit of a funny angle to judge a jump, but he looks like he uses his neck and back very well, especially with the trak blood. He just looks green and scopey to me, not necessarily the result of having been poled. The jumping chute looks like it's set up normally to me as well. You could tell more about his jump from a video, of course. 

His price doesn't surprise me, I would wonder if he had been sold as a hunter prospect with that bascule and more level head carriage. He has Argentinus through his sire, so likely a good ammy-friendly mind. That price range for a going under saddle prospect for the top levels of hunters or jumpers is to be expected. If the buyers think this is a derby horse or a Jr/AO jumper or hunter, that's what a prospect costs, especially in that area.


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## KWPNowner (Sep 25, 2012)

Oh I see now he's just registered with the German verband, and hasn't been inspected. Nevertheless, he looks like a nice horse, not one that I would find significant fault with.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

The horse is fine, i agree he seems a bit under muscled in the rear. For many buyers, his size may hinder him. His size will make him more desirable among older women later when he is older. When he is this young it may be an issue as the people that want smaller horses don't want young horses - if that makes sense. $70 isn't off for a horse of his versatility and breeding, but I could say more if I could see a video of his movement. That will dictate a lot of his price.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It's price tags like that that are the reason so many US people are still buying horses direct from Europe - I could buy an unproven horse like that in the UK for between a quarter and half of that price and even with shipping costs still save a good amount of money


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

jaydee said:


> It's price tags like that that are the reason so many US people are still buying horses direct from Europe - I could buy an unproven horse like that in the UK for between a quarter and half of that price and even with shipping costs still save a good amount of money


Agreed. Even if I was bleeding money, I couldn't see myself paying that much money for a baby. Especially when I could spend that much for a horse that was already proven and trained with a record to show for it.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

With respect; in many cases a very high quality WB colt will go for prices like this. Without seeing this horse move it is impossible to determine if he is of a quality to validate the price.

FEI quality horses are well into the 6 figures when they are older, to get the fancy ones at $50-70k is considered "cheap" in many circles. Many 10 year old GELDINGS are sold for $150,000+.

Right now importation fees are roughly 10-15k. And then you have travel expenses and or fees for your trainer if they go on your behalf if you both go, add another $10-15k. Suddenly buying in the US becomes very appealing.


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

I'm not saying what the Op should or shouldn't pay for a horse. I'm simply stating what I wouldn't pay. As someone else stated, its worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I wouldn't pay $100,000 for a horse at ANY level because in the end, its still a living, breathing creature with the same vulnerabilities as a $1500 horse. But that's just me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Tihannah said:


> I'm not saying what the Op should or shouldn't pay for a horse. I'm simply stating what I wouldn't pay. As someone else stated, its worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I wouldn't pay $100,000 for a horse at ANY level because in the end, its still a living, breathing creature with the same vulnerabilities as a $1500 horse. But that's just me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's what insurance is for 😀😋
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caseyctc (Dec 23, 2014)

Starlite said:


> The horse is fine, i agree he seems a bit under muscled in the rear. For many buyers, his size may hinder him. His size will make him more desirable among older women later when he is older. When he is this young it may be an issue as the people that want smaller horses don't want young horses - if that makes sense. $70 isn't off for a horse of his versatility and breeding, but I could say more if I could see a video of his movement. That will dictate a lot of his price.


I am not sure about his current height but his dam is 15.2-15.3hh and if I remember correctly his sire is about 17.2hh


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Its costs around $10k max to ship a horse from Europe which includes the groom provided by the company that deals with the travel arrangements, a mare or stallion will cost slightly more because of the quarantine fees, even if you pay for a trainer to go with you to view the horse you'll still be better off. 
This would cost you $7000 plus shipping costs 2012 mare, Canabis Z x Contango.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkxt4bmW4nE&feature=youtu.be
This one would cost you $10,000 plus shipping costs 2012 mare, I'm Special De Muze x Kreator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK2DOc-qGMQ&feature=youtu.be

Its what you'd expect to pay for an average unproven warmblood


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> It's price tags like that that are the reason so many US people are still buying horses direct from Europe - I could buy an unproven horse like that in the UK for between a quarter and half of that price and even with shipping costs still save a good amount of money





True, with the other end of the spectrum also seen in Europe, with stock horses selling there for way more money then they do here.
Simply a supply and demand sort of situation!
Horses are always worth just what someone is willing to pay for them!
There are race horses that sold for millions, and never won anything major
At one horse Breeder's conference, stats were given, for cutting prospects that sold in the 100, 000 dollar range, and up, following those horses, to see how many even came close to winning that purchase price back. Many of those prospects never even made it tot he show pen, and very few earned their purchase price back, with the rare horse actually winning money above purchase price
Bottom line, just because someone is willing to pay a price for a given horse, does not necessarily mean that horse is worth it!
The famous Snowman, was bought off the meat wagon, for around $800, I believe!


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

I can't comment on his conformation, but he looks solid. 

His jump, his legs are angled down, not square like I would personally prefer. But he's young, and I'm assuming hasn't been jumping any real height for very long. I've seen green hunters leap over fences like that, especially after having knocked a few down. As he gets more comfortable over fences, he may relax those front legs down and get a better form, or he may not. But his take off on the hind end looks even, and he looks like he's really using his back, not just thrusting himself over the fence.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If he actually brings $70,000 and he is out of your mare, I would be breeding her immediately.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Second Celeste!


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> The famous Snowman, was bought off the meat wagon, for around $800, I believe!


Lower, he was $80 :wink:

I know horses sell for what people are willing to pay. I paid $1500 for my mare, and will admit I overpaid for her. Her brother is for sale for $1800, and breeder is trying to use Izzie's success to garner interest (she's been highly successful in the shows we've shown in).

Why the curiosity in this horse? Is it because you now own the dam? He looks tiny to me for a Warmblood. I, personally, would not pay $70k for him, but to each their own. He looks ok, just small.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Repeat post


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

I really cannot emphasize enough that in buyer's circles, a young warmblood's movement and athleticism (i.e. potential) can and will influence most of its price point. Every time. Always. 

Not age. Not lack of show experience. Not color. Those are factors that influence AQHA and other breeds, yes. But in dressage circles it is all about movement and ability to get a rider their medal. (At this price neighborhood - 5 figure babies).


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

Starlite said:


> I really cannot emphasize enough that in buyer's circles, a young warmblood's movement and athleticism (i.e. potential) can and will influence most of its price point. Every time. Always.
> 
> Not age. Not lack of show experience. Not color. Those are factors that influence AQHA and other breeds, yes. But in dressage circles it is all about movement and ability to get a rider their medal. (At this price neighborhood - 5 figure babies).


Perhaps specifically in that area, but I gotta tell you. I belong to SEVERAL Dressage sales groups and look at sale ads every day with horses listed from all over the country and overseas and this is the first time I've seen a horse this age just being started at this price point.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Tihannah said:


> Perhaps specifically in that area, but I gotta tell you. I belong to SEVERAL Dressage sales groups and look at sale ads every day with horses listed from all over the country and overseas and this is the first time I've seen a horse this age just being started at this price point.


Agreed. He must be magnificent or have a very unrealistic seller. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

I would love to see video of his movement so more knowledgeable folks can point out what makes this guy an exceptional prospect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Tihannah said:


> I would love to see video of his movement so more knowledgeable folks can point out what makes this guy an exceptional prospect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't see that his legs are Angled down at all. That being said, I wouldn't pay that price for him. You can get a made amateur Hunter for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

LOts of exceptional prospects, never fulfil their expected potential, and an exception prospect, is just that, until proven otherwise
The racing World is full of horses, that as yearlings brought prices of a million and up, yet never won much of anything, or even made it to the track, in some cases
There was a time, in the oil boom, where Arabian halter horses brought prices such as this horse and more, fueled by oil money and those people investing that money, simply because they could
When that crash came,along with changes in tax laws, those same horses could hardly bring a thousand dollars

Here is some of that history, and it proves that horses are just worth what someone with expendable income is willing to pay. $70,000 is pocket change for those that drive this type of market

http://revitavet.blogspot.ca/2012/10/the-history-of-arabian-horse-market.html


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

Case in point of a woman I know VERY deep in the H/J world that knows horses like no one I've ever met. She had a horse broker trying to sell her a warmblood for a client that didn't work out for another young girl for $7500. She saw the issues with the horse immediately and turned him down.

Few months later, a wealthy woman she knows invited her over to have a look at her new $150,000 horse that was supposed to take her up the levels. Guess who that horse was?? Sold to her by the same broker who pawned it off as having exceptional potential to a woman with more money than common sense. The friend never told her the truth about that horse. The deal was done.

So yea, I think horses may sell for this price all the time, but not because its what they're truly worth.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I live in Central Europe and the price doesn't even surprise me. I've seen horses that go through auctions at huge prices run through by exceptional riders and I wouldn't have paid more than 12k for them.

He's a nice looker and I'm glad he doesn't had those thin spindly legs I've seen often round here.

I prefer something 16.3-17.1hh myself, but if he is out of your mare I'd start looking at studs, as has been mentioned. 

If you have the 70k and want a 70k horse, buy the 70k horse.

Everyone has different budgets.


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

I second DuffyDuck, I'm from Europe as well and I know some people near me selling their youngsters for 50k. 70k is a bit higher, but similar. 
This horse is small, but I've seen small horses jump amazingly in FEI shows and the olympics. I would love to see how this one moves. I would never buy for this price myself, but I just don't have the money. If I did, I might think differently.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If I was wanting to pay $70K for a young horse then I'd want to look around and see comparable horses and see how the prices matched up - you don't buy a horse because its priced at that amount you buy it because its worth that amount.
Right now, here and in Europe, the prices are all over the place, its a buyers market - you only have to look at the values put on horses on the Warmblood website differ between similar horses to know that.
Green Broke Warmbloods For Sale at Warmblood-Sales.com


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

That's great advice, Jaydee. I know too many people that have flitted money on the first thing they've seen when if you shop around you can find some real gems.

Most people want a horse that costs 100k and 1k of lessons. Most people need a horse for 1k and 100k of lessons.

OP are you curious to buy or curious because you are potentially looking to breed your mare? I'd hold back and wait and see how quickly this guy goes and if his price drops, then have a serious think about foal costs before, during and after pregnancy and weigh it up to how much you'd earn.

If you're looking to buy, and have that money, really look at the market for what you can get.


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## caseyctc (Dec 23, 2014)

DuffyDuck said:


> That's great advice, Jaydee. I know too many people that have flitted money on the first thing they've seen when if you shop around you can find some real gems.
> 
> Most people want a horse that costs 100k and 1k of lessons. Most people need a horse for 1k and 100k of lessons.
> 
> ...


I am not looking to buy. I do not have that kind of money to spend on a single horses haha. I was only looking for conformation critique and now realize that putting that price in only took away from my actual question. And this was also 2 years ago, and $70 000 was the final price that he sold for.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

there was a time minis commanded 20 grand and up. Nothing to do with ability, but just supply and demand 
Now those same minis are lucky to get $200
Horses have a unique position between being livestock and pets
Take a cow to market, and it folles the meat /breeding going price.
A horse, on the other hand being a luxury in most cases today, is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay, and most of those buyers have expendable incomes, witch have nothing to do with justifying the purchase price of that horse, far as return
That is why the tax man really loves looking into those horse write offs, seeing which ones truly are a business, and which are just a tax shelter or a personal investment


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

So when are you putting that mare in foal?


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