# First time training, hit a snag.



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

Sorry for the double post, but please excuse the fact that my pants won't stay up in the second video! I don't think i ever flash the moon, but it's kinda humorous to watch me try to keep them up.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Just asking, why does she need to wear a bit? There are plenty of bitless alternatives available. My TB can't stand the bit--he chews and gapes his mouth and tries to push it out and focuses on the bit instead of me. In a hackamore, no such problem. He even chews when we put the hackamore on like its a bit.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm doing a similar thing - Starting a horse for the first time, and I don't have an arena or roundpen or anything really. It's a learning curve, that's for sure!

My advice is to get that bit in her mouth as much as possible. She needs to learn to relax and function with it on. 

I would also work purely off the halter for a while until she can relax with the bit in. 

With Latte I would put the bit in first thing when I caught her and take it out last thing before I let her go, every time I worked with her. I also took her up to PC and put the bridle on and left it on her all day in the round pen. Giving treats/food with the bit in helps them to learn they can still manipulate their mouth with the bit in.


----------



## AlmostThere (Oct 31, 2009)

I know you said you had her teeth checked, but has she had her wolf teeth removed? If not, maybe they are bothering her.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

justsambam08 said:


> Just asking, why does she need to wear a bit? There are plenty of bitless alternatives available. My TB can't stand the bit--he chews and gapes his mouth and tries to push it out and focuses on the bit instead of me. In a hackamore, no such problem. He even chews when we put the hackamore on like its a bit.


She doesn't _have_ to. Ideally, i would like her to at least accept the bit. I plan to have her forever, but who knows what may happen. I think it's pretty vital that she at least gets used to it, even if it may not be quite right for her.

She has had her wolf teeth removed.

I thought about boarding her to work with her in a better set up, but that'll be even more expensive than a trainer. I really want a roundpen, but we don't really have anywhere that's level, so it's not as simple as just putting one up. I would looove to be able to free lunge her (and my others)! 

It's just amazing to me how nervous she gets. She doesn't really toss her head, she chews on it and foams up nicely, but she doesn't protest to it so much as it just makes her scared out of her skin. Not really sure why. It's like something clicks in her head that she doesn't like, and it puts her on edge for the remainder of our session. Without the bit, she is an angel like in our videos.

I'm going to have her teeth checked asap. Will have the vet do it during Floyds recheck appointment in a week.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

wild_spot said:


> I'm doing a similar thing - Starting a horse for the first time, and I don't have an arena or roundpen or anything really. It's a learning curve, that's for sure!
> 
> My advice is to get that bit in her mouth as much as possible. She needs to learn to relax and function with it on.
> 
> ...


What i did today was put the headstall over the halter and make her work with the bit in for the first half of the session. Once she calmed down some, i removed it before introducing anything else that was "new". I don't want to overwhelm her when she's in that state of mind. She even spooked at a cat today which i've never seen her do. I'm gonna go up to the tack shop and look for something else to try, though what i'm using for a bit now seems to fit her near perfect. I also need a smaller bridle for her. While what i'm using "works" it's not ideal. Highly doubt it'll fix the problem as it's not going to make a huge difference, but we'll see.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

What bit are you using?

I went through a couple with Latte and she is currently in a Myler Level 1 Comfort Snaffle.

I am also looking to try her out in a Pee Wee bit - That mgiht be a good option for your girl. They are meant to be as unobstrusive as possible while sitting passive in the mouth.


----------



## maderiaismine05 (Aug 1, 2007)

Hm..sounds odd to me. I would say shes probably just being stubborn. I would keep her halter on, put her headstall on with just a normal snaffle bit and try lunging her. she may need something to keep her occupied until she realizes that she'll be ok with something cold and metal in her mouth. once you lung her the first few times try putting obstacles in the way of her path while your lunging her. like lay a tarp down, pool noodles, tree branches, plastic bags, things that give her something to think about besides the bit. Ive also seen at the feed stores bit wraps that are flavored like apple. granted you cant always have a bit that is wrapped but it might work just to get her used to the concept of having a bit in her mouth...just and idea.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Honestly, it sounds to me that you're being too in her face and in her mouth. Alot of horses will fight the bit if you're being too aggressive or not being clear enough. You can't expect your horse to be perfect in a few rides. 

Ground drive her alot, it would be crazy to just get on a horse and expect him/her to understand what your asking in the first few rides.

It's not the bit, it's you. I'm not trying to be rude D; but so far in my training internship I've seen three horses come in with the same problem you're describing. 

I would never put a bit in and just "turn her lose", that would make her think that everytime the bit is in she can run free and crazy. You need to gain control over her.

In my opinion lunging is only good for gaining respect and possibly re-strengthening an old injury.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

maderiaismine05 said:


> once you lung her the first few times try putting obstacles in the way of her path while your lunging her. like lay a tarp down, pool noodles, tree branches, plastic bags, things that give her something to think about besides the bit. Ive also seen at the feed stores bit wraps that are flavored like apple. granted you cant always have a bit that is wrapped but it might work just to get her used to the concept of having a bit in her mouth...just and idea.


:? Why would you want to frustrate the horse more by putting things infront of it that could frustrate and/or scare. Putting something like a cone down is for later in training; when the horse is ready.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I would never put a bit in and just "turn her lose", that would make her think that everytime the bit is in she can run free and crazy. You need to gain control over her.


So every time a horse is turned out with a hakter they learn to run free and crazy every time the halter is on?

If the horse is uncomfortable with the bit, working with and fiddling with it will only excascerbate the problem. Horses need to first learn that the bit isn't anything scary, and only then will they learn to react to aids given via the bit with confidence.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> So every time a horse is turned out with a hakter they learn to run free and crazy every time the halter is on?
> 
> If the horse is uncomfortable with the bit, working with and fiddling with it will only excascerbate the problem. Horses need to first learn that the bit isn't anything scary, and only then will they learn to react to aids given via the bit with confidence.


No the halter isn't some hard piece of metal that goes in their mouth. Right, so what is letting the horse run around, buck, and kick going to teach him? 

Not to mention the horse will learn to throw his head around, where as if you were to use the bit with control for the first time the horse under saddle will be more willing to respond and know that he couldn't get his way.


----------



## maderiaismine05 (Aug 1, 2007)

White Foot said:


> :? Why would you want to frustrate the horse more by putting things infront of it that could frustrate and/or scare. Putting something like a cone down is for later in training; when the horse is ready.


Well number one...she said she has had the horse since it was what? a weanling? yearling?....so she has done ALL ground work with him..there fore...what purpose would "putting a cone down" later in training, or when the horse is ready serve?....that is all stuff you do BEFORE you begin to ride horse...and i said she should lunge him a few times with the bit in her mouth...AFTER hes comfortable with that and has settled down, THAN you start introducing things to him WHILE lunging him for the simple fact that she said things that DIDNT used to spoke him now do only when he has the bit in his mouth.
I myself have a 4 year old mare and i got her when she was two and barely halter broke. i had to do everything by my self, with no trainer...so i know what its like to be with limited resources and now i have the best horse i could ever ask for because i took the tim eto do things right. If a horse cant trust you on the ground it wont trust you on its back... and as for your comment about her expecting to just jump on the horse and ride..i dont think she mentioned anything about trying to get ON the horse.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

White Foot said:


> Honestly, it sounds to me that you're being too in her face and in her mouth. Alot of horses will fight the bit if you're being too aggressive or not being clear enough. You can't expect your horse to be perfect in a few rides.
> 
> Ground drive her alot, it would be crazy to just get on a horse and expect him/her to understand what your asking in the first few rides.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure i understand, and i'm not trying to be rude or stupid, either lol.

As you can see in my video's, i have control of her. Control isn't the issue at all. If i didn't have control over her, i wouldn't be bitting her and working with her because i don't have access to a roundpen or arena. I _have_ to have control over my horse at all times when working in an open field.

I don't think i'm being too aggressive or in her face with it. The only issue i am having is that she gets nervous once the bit is in her mouth. She doesn't act up, at all. Just very on edge. And i'm not sure why the bit is instilling this much fear in her. She's not generally spooky, or nervous (as you can see in the videos) but once that bit is in her mouth, she's instantly standing on the edge of a breakdown. The cat spooked her today. She's never spooked at a cat before. The only reason i turned her loose with the bit was to give her some time to get accustomed to it on her usual turf. I haven't even attached reins to the bit yet. I won't go there until she's comfortable with it.

I have yet to be on her back, so i'm not sure what you meant by that. 

ETA: Lunging to me is a vital tool, and has been in her training. Lunging has taught her the voice commands she knows, and has further reinforced her "whoas". She has learned to respect me on the ground, has learned that going forward is expected of her, and has taught her that she has to go to work.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

maderiaismine05 said:


> Well number one...she said she has had the horse since it was what? a weanling? yearling?....so she has done ALL ground work with him..there fore...what purpose would "putting a cone down" later in training, or when the horse is ready serve?....that is all stuff you do BEFORE you begin to ride horse...and i said she should lunge him a few times with the bit in her mouth...AFTER hes comfortable with that and has settled down, THAN you start introducing things to him WHILE lunging him for the simple fact that she said things that DIDNT used to spoke him now do only when he has the bit in his mouth.
> I myself have a 4 year old mare and i got her when she was two and barely halter broke. i had to do everything by my self, with no trainer...so i know what its like to be with limited resources and now i have the best horse i could ever ask for because i took the tim eto do things right. If a horse cant trust you on the ground it wont trust you on its back... and as for your comment about her expecting to just jump on the horse and ride..i dont think she mentioned anything about trying to get ON the horse.


If she did all the proper ground work with the horse she wouldn't be having these problems. *I'm not saying you didn't do all the proper ground work, but parts were missing. If this was your first horse you broke I would say you're doing a great job. 

*I did all my ground work with my horse and I even still missed crucial parts. I didn't have a roundpen, I didn't have an arena. I think I know a thing or two about having "limited resources". I'm lucky enough to be working with a trainer now and learning as much as I can. 

And you trained your horse to trust you by putting a bit in his mouth for the first time and throwing him out in the open with crap infront of his feet? That's just asking for trouble, the horse is already going to be frustrated by something new and different to him, why would you want to make it worse? 

People have different styles of training, and not all will agree. So whatever gets your job done. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think she's trying to get the horse used to the bit so she can get on her back and ride her? Or is she just doing it so someday down the road, say in about ten years, she can get her ready for riding?


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

maderiaismine05 said:


> Well number one...she said she has had the horse since it was what? a weanling? yearling?....so she has done ALL ground work with him..there fore...what purpose would "putting a cone down" later in training, or when the horse is ready serve?....that is all stuff you do BEFORE you begin to ride horse...and i said she should lunge him a few times with the bit in her mouth...AFTER hes comfortable with that and has settled down, THAN you start introducing things to him WHILE lunging him for the simple fact that she said things that DIDNT used to spoke him now do only when he has the bit in his mouth.
> I myself have a 4 year old mare and i got her when she was two and barely halter broke. i had to do everything by my self, with no trainer...so i know what its like to be with limited resources and now i have the best horse i could ever ask for because i took the tim eto do things right. If a horse cant trust you on the ground it wont trust you on its back... and as for your comment about her expecting to just jump on the horse and ride..i dont think she mentioned anything about trying to get ON the horse.


I've actually had her since the day she was born. :wink:


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Squeak said:


> I'm not sure i understand, and i'm not trying to be rude or stupid, either lol.
> 
> As you can see in my video's, i have control of her. Control isn't the issue at all. If i didn't have control over her, i wouldn't be bitting her and working with her because i don't have access to a roundpen or arena. I _have_ to have control over my horse at all times when working in an open field.
> 
> I don't think i'm being too aggressive or in her face with it. The only issue i am having is that she gets nervous once the bit is in her mouth. She doesn't act up, at all. Just very on edge. And i'm not sure why the bit is instilling this much fear in her. She's not generally spooky, or nervous (as you can see in the videos) but once that bit is in her mouth, she's instantly standing on the edge of a breakdown. The cat spooked her today. She's never spooked at a cat before. The only reason i turned her loose with the bit was to give her some time to get accustomed to it on her usual turf. I haven't even attached reins to the bit yet. I won't go there until she's comfortable with it.


Control isn't just on the ground, it's all aspects. It doesn't take an extremely intelligent horse to learn and stand there. Though, I will give you alot of credit that she's standing in the open field. Unless you see atleast one ear on you then the horse isn't paying attention. 

Maybe she's acting that way because you let her? Try and ground drive her, see how she reacts. Horses generally don't fear things unless we give them a reason to.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

White Foot said:


> If she did all the proper ground work with the horse she wouldn't be having these problems. *I'm not saying you didn't do all the proper ground work, but parts were missing. If this was your first horse you broke I would say you're doing a great job.
> 
> *I did all my ground work with my horse and I even still missed crucial parts. I didn't have a roundpen, I didn't have an arena. I think I know a thing or two about having "limited resources". I'm lucky enough to be working with a trainer now and learning as much as I can.
> 
> ...


My horse is an A++ horse on the ground. I just want to clarify that because i am extremely proud of the way she behaves on the ground. I rarely have to even do more than VOCALLY tell her what i want when it comes to ground work.

My horse already trusts me. I'm not trying to teach her to trust me. Please, watch the video's before you tell me that my horse isn't properly trained on the ground. All i've done is ground work, what i AM DOING is ground work. Sure, she's got a ton to learn. That is why i am here. My horse obviously doesn't like the bit. I wouldn't either. This is my first experience. I'm asking for advice. I'll take it all, and i'll take it graciously, but please watch the videos or read my entire first post... I can't believe you would tell me it's a trust/respect issue if you had. :? Who knows, maybe i'm overly proud of her, but i think we have a GREAT working relationship on the ground.

I could see what you're saying if my horse was refusing to take the bit, throwing a huge fit, and freaking out on me. She's not.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

We're playing some weird form of post-tag here. I just need advice on how to get a horse used to the bit. I don't think it's normal that she's this fearful WHILE the bit is in her mouth (she's not afraid OF the bit). It maybe makes her insecure? I don't know, that's why i'm asking for advice.


----------



## maderiaismine05 (Aug 1, 2007)

White Foot said:


> If she did all the proper ground work with the horse she wouldn't be having these problems. *I'm not saying you didn't do all the proper ground work, but parts were missing. If this was your first horse you broke I would say you're doing a great job. *
> 
> I did all my ground work with my horse and I even still missed crucial parts. I didn't have a roundpen, I didn't have an arena. I think I know a thing or two about having "limited resources". I'm lucky enough to be working with a trainer now and learning as much as I can.
> 
> ...


 
actually, i got lucky and didnt have a problem when i put the bit in my horses mouth...and again..im pretty sure i specified that AFTER THE HORSE GOT COMFORTABLE with the bit in its mouth...than you start introducing it to things that it can come across on the trail or wherever else...it would be a tad bit easier to handle a horse your not on the back of than say come across a plastic bag flaoting across your horses feet and him freak out on the trail or wherever and all because you didnt work with him BEFORE getting on his back!!!!

and im pretty sure both her and i are simply correcting YOU for your statements about her just expecting to jump on the horse and think he'll be ok....she nor did i say anything about her already getting on the horse so why dont you read what you wrote the first time...

"Honestly, it sounds to me that you're being too in her face and in her mouth. Alot of horses will fight the bit if you're being too aggressive or not being clear enough. You can't expect your horse to be perfect in a few rides."

and than read what you just wrote to me...

"Correct me if I'm wrong but I think she's trying to get the horse used to the bit so she can get on her back and ride her? Or is she just doing it so someday down the road, say in about ten years, she can get her ready for riding?"

make up your mind.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Maybe your "A++" horse is bored. I watched your videos and I read your posts. Horses get bored doing the same things, especially for four years. I'm NOT saying you did a bad job of training, but obviously something somewhere went wrong. 

How do you act when she has the bit in her mouth? Are you fearful for her?

Not to mention she's four and you're just putting a saddle on. You have to put the bridle on and keep her attention on you, don't give her the chance to think about being afraid.


----------



## maderiaismine05 (Aug 1, 2007)

Squeak said:


> I've actually had her since the day she was born. :wink:


 
My bad....thats awesome!!!


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Anywho, good luck.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I think it's pretty awesome to have a bond like we have, which came from the fact that i've had her for every moment of her life so far.

White Foot - I would have loved to work with her prior to this, but she wasn't ALWAYS this good. She had her bad year as a 2 year old where it wasn't safe to take her out in the open field, separated from the other horses. I also had to work with her slowly because she is JUST now starting to fill out. She is still petite, and very small. I wasn't sure that i was ever going to be able to ride her. I wasn't sure how big she was going to be. I think we're having a much easier time of it than we would have had i tried to go this far last year. Not to mention my own injury that rendered me unable to do that. We had the basic fundamentals of groundwork down prior to getting me hurt, and thankfully, she picked right back up on them last fall when i was able to get out there with her again.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

White Foot said:


> Anywho, good luck.


Thanks, we're trying our best! I definitely don't want to mess her up, so i'll be asking for more advice i'm sure.


----------



## maderiaismine05 (Aug 1, 2007)

Squeak said:


> I think it's pretty awesome to have a bond like we have, which came from the fact that i've had her for every moment of her life so far.


yes, that i do agree...although i havent had mine since she was born we have a bond like no other. about 5 weeks ago she got her back leg caught in a utility trailer and luckily my mom and i were there but i started crying when she limped right up to me and put her head right over my shoulder...as if to tell me she was hurt and in pain. she ended up having to have 32 stitches and she is just now allowed to be turned out again. the bond that her and i have is like no other. its something you cant explain! i dont know what i would do without her!


----------



## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Hi Squeak, I wonder if you have been overly cautious when you introduced the bit? When I started my horse I put the bit in her mouth and attached a running rein system with enough pressure on it that my horse had to learn to yield to it. She was so busy learning how to release the pressure by bending her neck that the bit was irrelevent. I think that giving your horse something to actually think about other than this foriegn object in her mouth might help. I found that with the running rein I adjusted the pressure as I thought best and then walked away and left my horse to it. I too started my horse with no facilities, just a field and a lunge line. My horse has a good mouth and has excepted the bit from the minute she realised that she controls the pressure on her mouth.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> No the halter isn't some hard piece of metal that goes in their mouth. Right, so what is letting the horse run around, buck, and kick going to teach him?
> 
> Not to mention the horse will learn to throw his head around, where as if you were to use the bit with control for the first time the horse under saddle will be more willing to respond and know that he couldn't get his way.


I never mentioned running around, bucking, kicking. I mentioned letting her wear the bit for a while so she gets used to the feeling in her mouth.

I left the bridle and bit on Latte for the whole day at PC in the round yard. there was no running, no bucking, no head tossing - In fact, all she did was graze.

When the bit is in the mouth passively, it generally isn't a crux for behaviour. most horses with bit issues will not have any reaction when the bit is passive in the mouth - Head tossing and other such evasion comes around when pressure is applied. There is nothing wrong with ensuring you have a calm and accepting horse when that time comes around.



> Not to mention she's four and you're just putting a saddle on.


Curious as to what this statement means?


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

In the video I saw a horse that was a little too willing to crowd into you and not as respectful as I would like. If you don't have the experience or the facilities then I would suggest sending her away for training for a month or two. There will still be plenty of things for you to teach her when she comes back but she will have a better foundation. Make sure you do some research and find a good trainer.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

> White Foot - I would have loved to work with her prior to this, but she wasn't ALWAYS this good. She had her bad year as a 2 year old where it wasn't safe to take her out in the open field, separated from the other horses. I also had to work with her slowly because she is JUST now starting to fill out. She is still petite, and very small. I wasn't sure that i was ever going to be able to ride her. I wasn't sure how big she was going to be. I think we're having a much easier time of it than we would have had i tried to go this far last year. Not to mention my own injury that rendered me unable to do that. We had the basic fundamentals of groundwork down prior to getting me hurt, and thankfully, she picked right back up on them last fall when i was able to get out there with her again.


No offense, but just by this post I can read in between the lines and pull out that it seems to me you're hesitant and scared. Your horse can pick up on that. Maybe the bond you have is of her being in control, not you? 

Everytime you put the bit in if you act scared and take it out the horse will read that and will think that as soon as the bit is in she should be scared. 

Wild_spot, it is whatever you want it to be.. 

Kevin, I love you.. your wife should watch out. :lol:


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Squeak, I agree with WhiteFoot and Kevin. Your horse is showing the same things I see in so many horses trained with some NH methods. They find the comfort in the method, not in the person. They learn to tolerate what you are doing so you stop asking. That horse is not attentive to you and she is not paying attention, she is thinking for herself, which is why she ran into you twice in the beginning of that first video. She is reacting to patterns that she has done, which means she is not being adaptable and accepting you in the leader role. This is why she's freaking out with the bit in her mouth, its a new thing to her. We are currently retraining a horse that was trained by a Parelli professional, talk about a trainwreck of a horse. He can circle you all day and disengage his hind end like there is no tomorrow, but give him something new and he goes into panic mode. Its because he has found his comfort in the repition of the program, rather than the randomness of following a leader and putting his faith in the leader. You are going through the steps, but as you mentioned, this is your first time. So "following steps" is just what you are doing. You are getting the outward results of how the feet are moving, but her mind is not with you. Its worked off of pressure and release results, so she responds to what she knows, but she is not yet asking you "what can I do for you next". Find a good trainer to help you. It will help you out in the long run to learn how to read in between the lines in horse training. Remember, they don't follow the book, they follow the leader.


----------



## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

I agree with the others. I had written up this long response and ended up deleting it, but here is the jist of it.

I didn't want you to think I was bashing you, your horse or your methods. But I think your horse is only going to give you what you expect out of her. Meaning she's only going to live up to your expectations. If you think she's going to have issues and react that way, then she will. I agree with Kiwigirl. Put the bit in, tie her head to the left or right (or whatever reining system you want to use) and let her be. Let the horse figure it out.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I guess I have to politely disagree with the consensus that she is just doing her normal thing in the video's.  That was the first time she had a saddle ON and cinched in the first video. It had been on and off of her the day before, but never on and tightened. So that right there was ALL new. It was not something we had done every single day so she is just in her routine. Yes in the beginning she was wanting to give me a little test, but I was the one stepping into her, not her stepping into me. What you don't see, is that i had just put the saddle on. I let her stand there until she relaxed, she never even rounded her back or anything. But when i asked her to walk, she wasn't sure what to do. It took 12 seconds to get her to walk forward, nicely. Not with her head in the air or sideways like she wanted to do.

I'm open to all suggestions, but I do not feel like my horse disrespects me at all. 

Do you guys really think she's not paying attention in the video's? Her ears flick back to me all the time. I have always thought she as rather attentive, but I wasn't exactly looking for it.

White Foot, i'm not sure how me saying my horse was tiny and i had no idea if she'd be suitable for riding so i wasn't in a hurry to saddle break her means i'm hesitant and scared. As a 2 year old, she was too small and it appeared she'd be a good pasture pony or kids pony. I didn't even know if i was going to keep her (i don't have kids and have no desire to have them!) or what i was going to do with her if i did. She is still small, but not as petite and tiny as she was as a 2 and 3 year old, she has filled out enough that i think she can carry my weight just fine on trails. Which is what she'll be used for eventually.

So... because my horse got nervous with a bit in her mouth, and i wasn't 100% sure what to do to address that without her hating it more, I should just send her off to training and admit defeat? She's not being bad, she's not charging me, bolting, dancing circles. I think a trainer would laugh if they had her to work with, it'd be easy money, IMO. Half the time i think somebody already saddle broke her while i wasn't looking.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

Plains Drifter said:


> I agree with the others. I had written up this long response and ended up deleting it, but here is the jist of it.
> 
> I didn't want you to think I was bashing you, your horse or your methods. But I think your horse is only going to give you what you expect out of her. Meaning she's only going to live up to your expectations. If you think she's going to have issues and react that way, then she will. I agree with Kiwigirl. Put the bit in, tie her head to the left or right (or whatever reining system you want to use) and let her be. Let the horse figure it out.


I think she'd do just fine with that. I AM going to make sure it's not her teeth, or the bit/bridle before i do anything further. Just in case.

I actually was caught off guard when the bit issues started. When i first introduced the bit to her last year, I only practiced putting the bridle on, taking it off. I didn't go much further than that, and she went right through the process like she'd done it every day, just like she did with the saddle in the videos. I barely even have to put my finger in her mouth, she opens right up. Her head stays low, and she accepts it no problem. It's when she has that bit in and i'm asking her to work, it just changes her demeanor. There's really no other way to describe what i mean.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Squeak said:


> I guess I have to politely disagree with the consensus that she is just doing her normal thing in the video's. *That was the first time* she had a saddle ON and cinched in the first video. It had been on and off of her the day before, but never on and tightened. *So that right there was ALL new. It was not something we had done every single day so she is just in her routine.* Yes in the beginning she was wanting to give me a little test, but I was the one stepping into her, not her stepping into me. What you don't see, is that i had just put the saddle on. I let her stand there until she relaxed, she never even rounded her back or anything. But when i asked her to walk, *she wasn't sure what to do*. It took 12 seconds to get her to walk forward, nicely. Not with her head in the air or sideways like she wanted to do.


I highlighted the phrases that kind of proved their point. It was because what you were doing was not the normal thing that she had issues with it. If she really respected you as a leader, she would a)look to you in times of uncertainty and b)feel safe in your judgement that you are not going to kill her.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

justsambam08 said:


> I highlighted the phrases that kind of proved their point. It was because what you were doing was not the normal thing that she had issues with it. If she really respected you as a leader, she would a)look to you in times of uncertainty and b)feel safe in your judgement that you are not going to kill her.


But in the video, she had no issues? She was better than even i expected. My whole point in posting the videos was to show how she accepts new things. I do not have a video to show how she reacts to the bit.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

OK im not going to give you any more information about making your horse respect you when to me she shows good respect to still a pushy baby buut all that can be stopped you came here looking for help with your bitting problem!! Have you tried putting the bit in hot water first if its metl to take the cold feel off it then rub something tasty like honey on it so she takes the flavour off. then i would then leave her in a stable or small paddock with hay and let her figure it all out herself you know like getting her tongue over and back on the bit and to function poperly id do this for a week or 2 until she is 100% comfortable but each horse is different let it take as long as it takes!


----------



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Right on, Whitefoot*

Your horse is scared _of the bit_, not stubborn! She couldn't be clearer in telling you that, proven by her continued fear out in pasture, away from any other disturbances. I'd give her a break from the bitting, because trying it hasn't worked, & you know it'll be the same story if you try again. I'd try a bosal or whatever mild/tasty etc. bit doesn't frighten her to death! As soon as she _panics_, remove it/stop it! She could hurt herself and/or you if you keep trying the bit.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

You keep asking for help but yet you don't want to take any constructive criticism. If 3+ people are telling you, you're doing something wrong then something is up. Why don't you make a video so we can see how she reacts? 

All I was saying was that she should of have a saddle on her as soon as possible. The sooner you introduce things to a horse the better. I'm NOT saying you should of got on her back and rode her around for a few hours. Just because she was small doesn't mean you couldn't have put a saddle on her back. That's not a good reason at all. Maybe you shouldn't spend the money on a trainer because everytime he/she said there was something lacking from her training you would disagree because you don't want to hurt your pride. Once you're willing to admit that you need help and swallow your pride maybe some of us can help you. And the trainer would laugh at your attitude, not your horse.

Northern, I don't necessarily agree with taking it out as soon as she panics. That would teach her that everytime she panics she can get out of any situation that scared her. It would be a horrible habit to break once started. Not to mention it could become a dangerous problem while riding. Rather she needs to make sure SHE'S confident in showing the horse that there is noting to be afraid of.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Northern said:


> Your horse is scared _of the bit_, not stubborn! She couldn't be clearer in telling you that, proven by her continued fear out in pasture, away from any other disturbances. I'd give her a break from the bitting, because trying it hasn't worked, & you know it'll be the same story if you try again. I'd try a bosal or whatever mild/tasty etc. bit doesn't frighten her to death! As soon as she _panics_, remove it/stop it! She could hurt herself and/or you if you keep trying the bit.


So by your reasoning, if a horse is afraid of the saddle, then you need to take the saddle out of the equation for weeks or months and spend more time on groundwork? Or maybe do the first few rides bareback? And when you saddle them and they freak out and pull a bucking bronco, you should unsaddle them and go away? Sorry, but it doesn't work like that.

It isn't that uncommon for a young horse to be more touchy with the bit in, especially if they have been handled and saddled and messed with in just a halter. It is a whole new experience for them and new things will usually make them uncomfortable and nervous. The best thing to do is to work them through it. Like Wild_Spot said, put the bit/bridle on under your halter and keep working her. She will eventually figure out that the bit is just one more thing that will touch her but not hurt her. It may end up being best for you and her both to get the help of a trainer or experienced horseperson that can be hands on and help you both learn.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> All I was saying was that she should of have a saddle on her as soon as possible. The sooner you introduce things to a horse the better.


Lol. Latte hadn't had a saddle, pad, bridle, or anything touching her until she was 5. She seems to be doing just fine.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

White Foot said:


> You keep asking for help but yet you don't want to take any constructive criticism. If 3+ people are telling you, you're doing something wrong then something is up. Why don't you make a video so we can see how she reacts?


Constructive criticism is fine with me, but if i don't happen to agree, i'm going to say so. I think i've taken the criticism quite well? 

*My horse is great on the ground, even while saddled. She isn't even _bad _when she has the bit in! She still listens to me, but she is on edge. It's not a dangerous situation, me nor the horse is in immediately danger of getting hurt. Maybe i didn't explain myself clearly enough. I just wanted some tips on how to get her used to it because it makes her nervous. If i'm being given advice that makes no sense in the current situation, i'm going to pipe up and try to explain why i believe you're on the wrong track. We can agree to disagree. I am extremely proud of my girl and her ground manners and the way we work together, and i'm simply reiterating the facts. She is not being unruly or bad. Yes, when i let her in the paddock with the bit, she did kick up a fuss for a few minutes. When she is wearing the bit, she's spooky, nervous, and suspicious. I think this is fairly normal? I wasn't expecting people to make it out to be a huge deal. Just something we need to work through... and apparently there are tons of different ways to do this. We may try several, we'll see.

I'm going to take it slow with her, and let her get used to it as i've been doing. Find a happy medium with her, either do a whole separate session while wearing the bit, or just only work half the session with the bit in. I'll work with her in the barn some as well, tied w/the bit.

What doesn't make sense to me and the reason i posted in the first place is because she lets me put it in/take it out. No problem. Easy as pie. But then she's nervous, and as soon as it is removed, she relaxes back into the happy pony she always is. She's not afraid of the bit. She doesn't see it coming and throw a hissy fit. She can be full of **** and vinegar when she wants to, believe me. It's rare, but it can happen. *But that's not what this is about*, at all. My horse is insecure while the bit is in her mouth. She's not in any way unruly. At all.

I am going to take a few steps back on the bit work, that's all i can do. Get her teeth checked, make sure it's not the equipment bothering her, and go from there.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Okay, you're right, there is nothing wrong with anything you're doing. Keep it up! Maybe by time you take and consider advice the horse will be ten and ready to ride!! 

Wild_spot, that's great for you and your horse. Do whatever makes you happy.


----------



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

You folks have heard of approach & retreat, right? In case not, it's to work on a fear a horse has by increments, not by putting the horse in the situation it fears & _keeping_ it there: as the horse thinks the frightening thing'll be, in this case, in its mouth *forever* at first! By removing the bit as soon as nervousness appears, the horse learns that it's_ *temporary* and it didn't hurt (hopefully_)! The horse is _scared_, approach & retreat is humane.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

I suppose if it works for you, I've never heard of that approach but that's okay


----------



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Smrobs et al, I can see how it looks like I meant to never try & teach her to accept a bit again. Hope this clarifies that I meant retreat to whatever degree she needs, then do approach & retreat.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

White Foot said:


> Okay, you're right, there is nothing wrong with anything you're doing. Keep it up! Maybe by time you take and consider advice the horse will be ten and ready to ride!!
> 
> Wild_spot, that's great for you and your horse. Do whatever makes you happy.


I have taken and considered all the advice, and there's no reason to be snarky. I simply disagree, because I don't think i made my point clear enough, and this was blown out of proportion. I think it went way, way off track. 

I would not be saddling and bitting a horse in an open field if i didn't have control/respect. If i didn't trust her. If i was scared. I am alone 90% of the time so if i wasn't 100% confident and in control, I wouldn't be doing what i'm doing. So i definitely don't agree with that, that's all. I think my horse behaves VERY well for a 4 year old with very limited experience under saddle, out in the open, away from her buddies. I have very few problems with her.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Wild_spot, that's great for you and your horse. Do whatever makes you happy.


It's not what makes me happy. I got the mare as a practically unhandled 5yo about 4 months ago, I had no say in anything that had happened or not happened.

All I was doing is pointing out that wether the horse is saddled/bridled at 2, or at 5, doesn't make a difference - It's the personality of the horse that makes a difference.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> You folks have heard of approach & retreat, right? In case not, it's to work on a fear a horse has by increments, not by putting the horse in the situation it fears & _keeping_ it there: as the horse thinks the frightening thing'll be, in this case, in its mouth *forever* at first! By removing the bit as soon as nervousness appears, the horse learns that it's_ *temporary* and it didn't hurt (hopefully_)! The horse is _scared_, approach & retreat is humane.


Approach and retreat is a very valid training tool.

However I would be inclined to only remove the bit when she showed signs of relaxing. Accepting - Remove and retreat = reward.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

It does make a difference, a *huge* difference actually.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I will try that!


----------



## maderiaismine05 (Aug 1, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> It's not what makes me happy. I got the mare as a practically unhandled 5yo about 4 months ago, I had no say in anything that had happened or not happened.
> 
> All I was doing is pointing out that wether the horse is saddled/bridled at 2, or at 5, doesn't make a difference - It's the personality of the horse that makes a difference.


ONE HUNDRED percent agreed with wild spot!! My horses wasnt saddled until 3 and my moms horses wasnt saddled until 7, and he was abused!! both NEVER had a problem getting on the back of! call us lucky i guess...but our horses just trusted us..as well as had respect. Age is nothing but a number.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> It does make a difference, a *huge* difference actually.


I guess I can understand your mentality, seeing as you think not being ridden as a 4yo is such a disadvantage.


----------



## maderiaismine05 (Aug 1, 2007)

White Foot said:


> It does make a difference, a *huge* difference actually.


So since you told squeak to listen because she had 3+ people telling her one thing and she didnt want to listen...how about you? take your own advice white foot...you now have 3+ people telling you age DOESNT matter...the personality of the horse and rider and one is what makes the difference. weather the horse trusts you enough at age two to get on his/her back..or at the age of 7 doesnt matter..trust is trust...again..my horse was 3...never been worked with a day in her life...so i had a blank canvas to work with. first time i got on her she didnt do a thing but stand there. i squeeze my leg...and she walked...shes NEVER once tried to buck with me or kick with me on her....my moms horse...got him at age 6, he was abused, had scars all over him..didnt trust a sole, couldnt even get a halter on him...took her about 8 months with him to get his manners in good condition...she got on him...didnt do a thing. trusted her with all his heart...so again...perfect example of *AGE DOESNT MATTER!*


----------



## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

I did not read through all of the posts, so this may already have been said. If I were you I would bit her up, and turn her loose. Possiblly for hours at a time. She has to figure this one out on her own, that the world hasnt drastically changed because she is wearing a bit. Put the headstall on, and tun her out in a safe, familiar place and just keep an eye on her so there are no accidents. Try this with a grazing bit or plain snaffle. Eventually she will want to do something calm and normal like eat or drink, and she will. She will likely try to get rid of it, I had one that laid down and rubbed the headstall off, so keep an eye on her, no rubbing on the fence and the like. It isnt much different than when a horse somtimes pitches a fit about moving undersaddle the first few times. This one is just harder for her. I bet you had an arm over her back a lot...how often were your fingers in her mouth? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I happen to think that as a 2, even 3 year old, horses are still very much like your typical 12 and 13 year old kids. They can grasp the concepts of things and know what's right, but not necessarily always formulate that into proper decision making. I have a 2 year old Appy, though he was a rescue and still needs to earn trust, i have no plans to do anything with him until he's 3 or 4. Just a personal preference, I don't see how it makes a huge difference to the finished product.

I think 3 is a good age to begin saddle breaking. That is just my opinion to add to the bunch.

I do not have a bond with him the way that i do with Socks, and I will probably send him for training. With Socks, she's one of those "I will jump a bridge if you ask me to" types. I don't consider myself a trainer, and don't feel I can train an abused horse who doesn't trust a soul.


----------



## maderiaismine05 (Aug 1, 2007)

Well my mom is good at what she does...granted, shes had race horses her whole life, so riding horses are trained differently, but the concept for the most part is still the same...but she got one of those one in a million horses...ive seen abused horses take years to except the fact that not everyone is out to get them and she did it in 8 months....GO MOM!


----------



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

One must help the horse see that there's no _need_ for fear. Please consider the danger; this horse could really hurt/kill itself & others by leaving bit in its mouth right now. Also, "keeping an eye on" panicked horse in pasture won't prevent a disaster that one'd regret forever.


----------



## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

Jesus Christ! The horse is 4, and that is mature enough to start training for riding NOW if that's what the owner wants. If she wants to train her horse to take a bit I assume that is her goal. 

The OP is talking about a horse that was handled since birth, touched everywhere from day one. No wonder the mare handles most things very well. I'm betting that she just finds the bitting more difficult because having something in her mouth (in the mares mind) falls outside of all previous handling. 
Therefore the owner, who is used to a perfectly mannered horse, is surprised at the mares reaction and is unsure what to do.

Provided that the bit fits her and is placed properly, wearing it is NOT going to hurt her in any way. The mare just needs to get used to it, and the only happens is by Doing it. 

Also, Northern, you say "panicked" but the OP said "nervous" and "spooky"...I see a sizable difference there. If the owner thinks she might be a problem wearing it in a pasture, then do it in a stall. I did say a SAFE place.

What I'm picturing here is a mare that just needs to deal with a bit, without anything else going on (hence turning her loose, no commands or work asked by the owner, just dealing with the thing in her mouth), long enough to figure out that the bit is no different than the halter or saddle.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

Kaioti, i really agree with you. What you say makes perfect sense and what i was trying to get across. 

I graduated with a girl who has gone to college and the whole shebang and now runs her own horse training business. Only downside is that it's over 2 hours away from me. I was speaking to her for some advice. I plan on sending my Appy to her next year. She said much of what you have said, Kaioti. She also offered to fine tune her once i get her started under saddle (she realizes i'm pretty determined to not give up!). So we'll see what happens.


----------



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

*Squeaky's descriptions*

Ok, I re-read the first post describing mare's behavior: "panicky", "ran around bucking & kicking", and further posts, "she turns into a quivering mass of nerves", "spooks & is nervous for the rest of session after the bit is tried"! So I feel no need to retract my advice on approach & retreat & riskiness of not doing so. Yet _everyone's _opinion is handicapped because we're not there with the horse, seeing/feeling what she needs. Good luck, Squeaky, & for our edification, please let us know what worked!


----------



## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

I will agree with you Northern. Not actually SEEING what is going on, is a huge handicap. We can only go by what we are told, and hope that whatever that is, is accurate.

What I heard in that First post was the voice of a nervous owner. She clarified further on.


----------



## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

And part of why I feel that this horse should just be left to wear the bit for a while, is that it sounds like the horse sort of shuts down when presented with the bit. It doesn't sound like a sacking out thing where the horse is kind of nervous but still listening. Advance and retreat works when the horse is paying enough attention to calm down and recognize the reward end of things. When they shut down, often that is when they have to figure the problem out without human help. Being there and trying to get their attention can make an unthinking horse worse, even if the horse ordinarily trusts its handlers.


----------



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Yes, it sounds as though she's too scared to be listening, & that's when advance & retreat's sometimes appropriate. The horse learns by the incremental approaches, "I'm _alive_ & that _didn't hurt_", and by the retreats, "my human_ won't_ leave this there *forever!*" :clap:


----------



## Rule of Reason (Feb 11, 2010)

Squeak, have you tried a Happy Mouth bit?

I think you said she's small, and it can be hard to find bits under 5" from them. But if you can find something, she might accept it better.

Did you start the bitting training by putting the bit in for only a few seconds, then removing it? Doing that for progressively longer periods of time? If not, you might go back to that step for a day or two. After that, I agree, at some point she's got to figure it out for herself. Give her a quiet, safe place and keep an eye on her.


----------



## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Oh for goodness sake, put the bit in the horses mouth, attach a set of running reins firmly enough that there is some pressure yet loosely enough that as the horse bends her neck she can relieve the pressure. Step back and let her get on with teaching herself how to yield to the bit!! Leave her the hell alone, she may get panicky and go around and around in circles but her head wont fall off and she will get sick of that and start to think for herself. It may take five minutes it may take an hour leave the process going until she is standing calmly and relaxed with a slightly bent neck. It is so bloody SIMPLE! 

The only problems that you are going to encounter with this is if YOU apply the running rein wrong.


----------



## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

The only thing I disagree with is asking her to bend to the bit if she is as uncomfortable with just wearing it as she sounds. Yielding to it can come after she doesn't have a problem just having it in. This is something that it doesn't hurt to wait on since there is no hurry. That way she only has one thing to concern herself with at a time, considering how upsetting it is for her.

But it is true that running reins won't hurt either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

Kiwigirl, i plan to do just that once she's comfortable. She's not comfortable.

I did start last fall, just putting it in and taking it out. I left it in for about 15 minutes, but didn't do any further working with it in.

This spring i started back up, first day i put it in, took it out. Repeated the process. Next day left it in a little longer, so on and so forth.

She is fine when i put the bridle on. She doesn't move a muscle, opens her mouth sometimes without me even putting a finger in, and chews on it a few seconds, then settles.

When the bit is in, she's nervous while we continue on our work. So all i can do, is step back and get her comfortable before continuing on.

I would have no problem admitting i was nervous if i was nervous. I was simply unsure about how to proceed, being my first experience, and didn't want to mess her up.

I have worked greenies. I have worked horses that have only had a rider on their back a few times. I have never started from the very beginning like this. I want to do it right.


----------



## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

This is a bit off topic, but I noticed that you had a chain over her nose. Why is that? 

**not being rude, just curious.


----------



## Kaioti (Dec 3, 2009)

With this she sounds like she is comfotable wearing the bit. In that case then yes, side reins. Make her work anyway. 



Squeak said:


> Kiwigirl, i plan to do just that once she's comfortable. She's not comfortable.
> 
> I did start last fall, just putting it in and taking it out. I left it in for about 15 minutes, but didn't do any further working with it in.
> 
> ...


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

grayshell38 said:


> This is a bit off topic, but I noticed that you had a chain over her nose. Why is that?
> 
> **not being rude, just curious.


Fair question. I generally use the chain over the nose for horses when i don't know how they are going to react. New horses, or ones going into new situations. With her it probably wasn't necessary, but, we were out in the open and i did not want to risk her getting away from me if she threw a fit about the saddle. We live on a rural road, but there is a main road just through the trees. Safety first.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If I knew how to do it, this post would have a smiley that was shaking its head, pounding it on the desk and puking all at the same time.


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Totally random Kevin but you made me laugh none the less. The mental picture of that smiley is hilarious. 

To the OP, if you really want to get her used to the bit without seeking professional help then just leave it in. I had a horse in for training that was ridden for 10 years in a sidepull. She was a nutcase and would run backwards with her head tilted so her forehead was parallel to the ground, wheel around in circles, not go forward, leap off trails into trees and bushes, etc. She really only did straight lines and sharp turns and had no power steering at all. There was no middle ground because she only knew the indirect and confusing pressure of the side pull and was easily confused, scared and over faced and had no confidence in her rider or the bridle. There was no way to balance her or anything. I put a mild lozenge link 3 piece snaffle in her mouth, put a halter on over the bridle and took her for walks, lunged her, did some ground work with her every day until she accepted the bit. Sure she spent half her time contorting herself like a pretzel trying to figure out how to get the bit out. And she would gape, pretend to gag, froth, chew on it like she was somehow going to bite it in half and escape, etc. When she ignored me and did things like run into me, pull on me or be obnoxious or overly excited then she got worked hard until she started to ignore the bit and pay attention to me. Then when her attention was on me I would finish up our work for the day and give her some pats and praise and take it off and turn her out. She learned quickly that the focusing on the bit meant having to work and focusing on me meant she got to stop working and/or get some other reward. Then the same thing happened under saddle, and eventually she was riding with a bit in, balancing and overall a pleasure to ride and work with.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> If I knew how to do it, this post would have a smiley that was shaking its head, pounding it on the desk and puking all at the same time.


A little unnecessary? I don't know what this is in reference to, but i think you may want to consider that some people do things a little differently than others. Not everyone has the same views. No need to continue to keep this thread going in a direction it doesn't need to go.

I simply was trying to seek opinions, and i've had to field tons of other BS right along with it. 

That post was totally uncalled for, and completely unfair. If the only reason you're posting is to be rude and insulting, you could refrain from posting at all.

With that said.... I managed to find a bit that is 1/4 inch smaller. That might be a little *too* much of a downsize, and it was very hard to find. I have ordered it and i'm just waiting for it to get here. The bit i'm using now might just be a hair too big, but i think this one will be a little too small. Frustrating! Maybe if it fits, it'll fit better at least.

I also ordered her very own red bridle. She's gonna look cute.

I just got in from working with her, and we had some light thunder start to roll in. Considering that, it's hard to say if she's improved any while wearing the bridle or not. Our session got got short by about a half hour because it started to rain/lightening. 

We have walk and trot on the lunge and while being led totally down pat (under saddle). Today I also went back to walking over a tarp, around barrels (luckily we have a lot of these, some are bright and scary colored too), and took her all the way down the road past some big scary mail boxes to my neighbors house because she wanted to show me her baby goats. Here she met a few freaky terrier dogs that were barking at her. The only thing she spooked at and was hesitant about was walking past my neighbors fountain/bird bath/flower pot thing that is huge. Considering this was a completely new place she'd never been, and it was getting windy/stormy, I consider that acceptable. She huffed and puffed for a second and then i let her smell it at her own pace and she walked right by.

I'm hoping to reinforce with her that she can trust me and what i'm asking her to do, but today felt kind of monotonous and silly, considering she has no issues with any of it. 

So i am trying to take all the advice, cater it to this situation, and put it to good use. I have to run now because this storm is getting ugly and i don't want to get my computer zapped into oblivion. 

Thanks for all the advice to those who offered it. 

Almost forgot, here is the Bit-Loathing cutie pie herself when i went to fetch her for our session, isn't she just the cutest thing? She's like a big shetland.








Kinda OT, although i love her huge bushy mane, should i try to thin it down some? I think it's a little out of hand....


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Squeak said:


> A little unnecessary? I don't know what this is in reference to, but i think you may want to consider that some people do things a little differently than others.


A little unnecessary is a chain over any horses nose. You are oblivious to what good horsemanship even is, let alone how to do it. That's okay as long as you are willing to learn and keep your eyes open to what is going on around you. When you put a horse in a strange situation it is best not to inflict pain when the horse doesn't do what you want. The only purpose of a chain over the nose is to inflict pain. In some breeding situations it may be needed but that should be rare. Good luck with your mare. I hope she remains as patient as she has been up till now. If you put good horsemanship first then there is no need for anything else.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I do not inflict pain with the chain over the nose. It inflicts no pain unless you tighten/jerk the rope. It does not have to inflict pain, and even when a horse decides to act up, it doesn't have to end in pain. I don't see how it's any different than people lunging with the chain. Again, i'm sure, matter of opinion. It was how i was taught. It has nothing to do with pain or jerking a horse around, i'm sure for some people, yes! They could put the chain over the horses nose and completely yank them around. All it means to me is a little extra _control_, not pain just to get what i want. _Pressure_ if the horse tightens the slack in the rope. Not pain. I do not inflict pain on my horses. If you have a steady hand and slack in the rope, i don't see how it is any different than having it hooked to the ring in the halter. 

I personally don't believe there is anything wrong with my horsemanship, just because i would rather have a little more control over a horse when working in a field a quarter mile from a major roadway when i'm putting a saddle on her for virtually the first time.

I do everything in my power to give my horses the best lives they can possibly have and if i thought for one second i was inflicting pain in any form, it would cease immediately. I have been around horses for 23 years and have had many trainers and mentors, one being an Olympian. They molded me, so maybe they all had it wrong too. It's possible, i just know what i was taught and what i've witnessed over the years.


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I'm a little confused. This ground work session was it done with the bit in or just with a halter? If it was not done with the bit then it should have and you should start to work her in the bit every time you do anything with her. 

As for the chain I agree that it can be just as mild as a lead hooked to the halter on a mild mannered horse or a calm one. I don't have a problem with the chain being there "just in case" but you really want to get away from needing it as a crutch (if that is the case) because your horse will start to only listen to the chain and not the simple noseband pressure of the halter. Even though the chain is just resting loosely on their nose they still know that it's there and what it can do.


----------



## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

My advice is to go to the thread started by smrobs in this section. She is reporting the day to day progress of a young horse she is starting. There are some brilliant photos of the youngster with the bit in its mouth and reins tied back to the saddle and the horse teaching itself how to give to the bit, much like the system I recommended about 6 pages ago. Read that thread and learn!

The thread is called Day 1...... the saddle!


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I only use the chain in certain circumstances. I haven't used the chain with Socks since the first few times i put the saddle on her. I just wanted that safety net there if she decided to completely wig out so that i did not lose her, i had no idea how she would react to the saddle and luckily i didn't need the chain at all.

This recent training session was bitted and bitless. I haven't been introducing anything new with the bit in. I wasn't able to gauge if she was nervous because of the bit, or because of the storm. The walking to the neighbors was while wearing the bit, with the halter, and the lead hooked to the halter not the bit. I'm not going to tie her with the bit or anything until i get this one I ordered and see if that helps any.

Kiwi - that's a great suggestion, i've been following that thread since soon after it started.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I'm not going to tie her with the bit or anything until i get this one I ordered and see if that helps any.


Please don't *ever* tie her with the bit - Just a recipe for disaster.


----------



## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

Oh this thread has been really funny to read  lol. The bashing that's going on between everyone is just amazing. Why does everyone have to get so worked up about issues like this. Just state your opinion and move on. Either the person who asked the question will take your advice or not. It's totally up to them.

Anyway, I had a good laugh reading all of this...thank you everyone.


----------



## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Silvera said:


> Oh this thread has been really funny to read  lol. The bashing that's going on between everyone is just amazing. Why does everyone have to get so worked up about issues like this. Just state your opinion and move on. Either the person who asked the question will take your advice or not. It's totally up to them.
> 
> Anyway, I had a good laugh reading all of this...thank you everyone.


 Glad you were able to have a good laugh! Yes we can be a funny bunch alright. One day YOU are going to offer someone what you think is the best advice in the world and you are going to be totally ignored, and I just bet that you are going to spend as much time whipping a dead horse as the rest of us. Bet you anything you are not going to be able to resist getting involved ocassionaly, if you can you are a far more self restrained person than I am, LOL! Welcome to the forum, for a really good laugh go to any thread about Parelli.


----------



## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

Lol, thanks for the welcome. I did actually go to a thread about Parelli first...that was really funny as well. Generally speaking when I give someone my advice or opinion I really couldn't care if they actually take it. Either they will or they won't. Doesn't hurt me to give it but can help someone in the end. If they don't take it then I hope they find something that doew work. It's when people to crazy stupid things that boggles my mind, don't get me wrong...i do to sometimes but my training methods are a little off the beaten path (like taking my two year old out for a trail ride the third time he's had someone on his back) lol

Anyway, It is what it is and you can't change people...just try and help steer them in a safe (ish) direction

Oh and the trail ride was wonderful


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Silvera said:


> It's when people to crazy stupid things that boggles my mind, don't get me wrong...i do to sometimes but my training methods are a little off the beaten path (like taking my two year old out for a trail ride the third time he's had someone on his back) lol


If the horse is properly prepared that is certainly not stupid or off the beaten path. I have done that many times myself with much better results than riding in a pen or arena untill they are sour and sullen.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

^ You should listen to him, he knows what he's taking about..


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I agree with Wild about not tying with a bit. NEVER tie a horse to a solid object with a bit in their mouth. Throwing a rein on the ground with a horse that 100% ground ties or slinging a rein over a fence while you do something within reach is fine but never tie because if your horse pulls back they can do serious damage their head and mouth from the bit/bridle. Same can be done with a horse that has it's reins on the ground while it's running around or even walking. Be VERY careful what you do with your reins and don't let them get stepped on or allow your horse to get popped in the mouth with the bit in or it will make your situation much worse.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I didn't mean literally tie her with the bit. I guess i chose the wrong words. I meant tying her to one side to learn to give to the bit. Sorry for the way i worded it/the misunderstanding.

I am just about sick of this thread already. I have TAKEN all the advice to heart, and people get so personally offended when i don't 100% agree. I have taken EVERYTHING that was said and thought it through. Nobody has been ignored. I want to train my horse, and i want to do it as well as i can. People are going to have different opinions and ways of doing things. If i don't choose to side with this person or that person, get over it. There are tons of different ways to do everything you can do in this world, horse training included. If you want to get technical, there is no right or wrong way to train a horse. (excluding beating them into submission and things of that nature). 

It makes no sense to me why it seems every single topic of this forum asking for advice has to go in the direction of bashing and trying to beat values/opinions into somebody's head. I think a few too many people feel superior over others, but they may want to learn more about the person before they judge them.

In fact, i am now completely confused.... what advice did i ignore that you people are still beating into my head? I've gotten completely "lost" through all this, and i'm not even sure at this point what the problem is?


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Ignore the bashing and side tangents while big egos have gotten in the way. Go back to the basics of the posts. Here is what I would recap as the better ideas that have been presented and in the order that I present them you could ideally try each in a step by step system to get her to really learn to accept the bit. 

1. Put the bit in her mouth and turn her out in a dirt lot or somewhere that she can't really eat with it in. Horses that eat with a bit in, especially those that aren't used to a bit can and do choke quite easily and this is not a good thing. However leaving her in a small dirt lot without any forage but adequate water for an hour or so with the bit in and no reins attached will allow her to learn to hold the bit and get used to the feeling. This can be done in a stall as well. You just want to be on hand and I suggest doing this with a simple headstall with just a crownpiece and a bit so that if she rubs or gets her head caught on something it will relatively easily slip off her head. 

2. After you have done #1, or if #1 was not an option, then you want to start doing all of her ground work with the bit in her mouth and a halter under the bridle with the lead attached to the halter. Lead her around, take her for walks, lunge her, saddle her, etc. Ignore the fact that she has a bit in her mouth and continue to do the same things that you always did with her. Eventually when she gets back into your old routine and is no longer being nervous or spooky in association with the bit then you clip a lead to one side of the bridle and another lead to the halter and start leading her that way. Add pressure on the bridle and then on the lead to the halter so she associates the two and understands what you are asking. Also, if she gets nervous or tries to freak out then you speak calmly with her and put only pressure on the halter lead since that is what she's used to. Make sure that you can and DO lead her from both sides in the halter and in the bridle. Also once she is leading well you can start to lunge her with the line attached to the bridle so she learns to give to pressure and turn from the bridle. 

3. Once she is doing all her ground work quietly with the bridle and leading from it then you can add the tying. Tie a quick release knot to your horn or some other solid piece to your saddle with enough slack to just barely be putting pressure on her face but not enough slack that it doesn't put any pressure on. This is a skill that needs to be developed and the first couple of times you do this you will be tying and untying a lot...trust me. Also a good thing to do if you're using a western saddle is to put the rein through the hole that is between the pommel and seat and then tie around the horn as it keeps it more secure and there's less chance of it popping off or getting caught on something. Remember to do both sides equally and don't tie too tight. Not tight enough is ALWAYS better than too tight!

4. After you've done some semblance of the first 3 steps then you should be ready to ride. She should be 100% comfortable with the bit in her mouth and you leading, lunging and tying her. Once you're up and she is used to the weight she should have very little problems steering since you did the hard part from the ground. That being said ALWAYS have someone there with you when working with her just in case something goes wrong either for you or her or both. 

Good luck and keep us posted!


----------



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Just do what seems right to you. Your girl obviously trusts you and will always wanna do right by you. In my 2 days of posting on this forum, ive been treated like a total moron. Ive had horses all my life (and im 30) and have trained my own horses since i was 10. Use the instincts that God gave you and you wont go wrong. If it works out that she hates the bit and its going to be a road block...go around. Get a hack...a bitless bridle...i prefer a sidepull myself. Revisit the subject once you've made progress elsewhere. If I could pick ONE thing that horses have taught me...it is to pick your battles. Why argue with a horse about a bit when you could be working on some other issue. If you find a solution that works for the both of you...why not go with it? Good luck girl! Don't listen to the haters on here. They're just critical people.


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Corino please don't hold the actions of others against the rest of us. While most on here will rise to the occasion and enjoy a good "verbal sparring" every now and again or can come through with some harsh truths to those that may need it we are not an evil group. Please take all advice and posts with a grain of salt and realize that there will always be haters and insensitive posters. Most people on here are very nice and helpful as long as you are at least appreciative that they took the time to post even though it may not be the right advice for you at that time. It's the people that get defensive, argumentative and change their stories constantly, while lashing out at posters, that cause the claws to come out and some innocent bystanders may get caught in the crossfire unintentionally (not talking about this post FYI). So welcome to the board and we look forward to more posts from you. 

That being said, I agree that the best tool in a trainer's toolbox is instinct. OP, if you do everything in your power to get her a bit that she is ok with and she still doesn't accept it then by all means get a sidepull or a hack or something and try that. But I commend you on trying everything to make the bit work for her and not giving up because she didn't take to it like a duck to water. Keep up the good work and keep us posted!


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> Ignore the bashing and side tangents while big egos have gotten in the way. Go back to the basics of the posts. Here is what I would recap as the better ideas that have been presented and in the order that I present them you could ideally try each in a step by step system to get her to really learn to accept the bit.


Thank you for your whole entire post, that took a ton of time and i appreciate it immensely.

I think she's doing really well. Just a little bump in the road. For some reason i'll probably never know, she's not going to accept this as quickly/easily as she did everything else to date. That's fine, i'm gonna work through it. 

I have no problem with using a hackamore or something if it turns out she's just not going to work with the bit. However, i would love her to accept it, and rule out any other causes of the problem before i go that route. 

It's been raining so i haven't had a chance to do much else. I gave her a good grooming today and just spent some one on one time with her, and practiced on and off with the bridle. She's opening her mouth without my finger, i just present the bit to her and she opens up.  I just had her wear it while i groomed her. I was forced to give her yesterday off, due to the weather. I wanted to do more today but i wasn't feeling 100%, catching some kind of bug or something. Will update when we get to do more - We are building a roundpen, just waiting for the weather to calm down. I'm excited for that. Then i can work with her off the lead/lunge. 

Thanks again!!!


----------



## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Np I'm glad I could help. And that is just what you need to do. Put the bridle on and go about your business like it's not there. If you act like it's not there and it's business as usual she will soon follow suit. =) Glad everything is working out and you know we want lots of pictures and updates!


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

Guess what I have, folks!? 








A completely calm, relaxed pony _wearing a bridle_. :lol:

I got the new bit, which fit wonderfully, but finding her a good fitting headstall was almost as impossible as finding this **** bit! My pony must be weird.

The adorable red fancy embroidered pony headstall i got her was just a HAIR too small. My Arabian and cob bridles, too big! Instead of punching holes and constantly changing bits as i have been doing, i dug through my old tack and found a few headstalls and took the time to clean them up, and this one fits perfect. It may not be pretty, but it's serving it's purpose.

I didn't want to jump the gun, but the last 3 days of work she's done better each time, today was just a breeze. She is no longer nervous while wearing the bit, and we're going to finally move on. Over the last week i've actually been putting the bridle on her multiple times a day. Not everyone might agree, but it seemed to be the best way to go. If i was mucking stalls, i'd throw it on her and either tie her (not by the bit, by the halter) or just leave her in her stall/paddock wherever she happened to be at the time. This whole thing was hard for me to understand because 99% of the time she's turned out and i can go right up to her with the bridle and she doesn't try to shy away, she doesn't move. She lets me put it on just fine, takes the bit like a champ. It was so strange that just having that bit in her mouth put her on edge for whatever reason, and trying to "think like the horse" made me wonder because you'd think she'd see me coming with it and get scared, or not want it in, but that wasn't the case at all. But it doesn't matter now because it would appear we are past this! Yay!

I'm hoping that was the biggest hump we had to get over and the rest will go without a hitch, but i know that's not realistic.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It doesn't really matter if everyone agrees with your or not, it is working. Just keep up the good work . It is nice to see that she is so relaxed. You did a good job.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm so glad, all it took was time and patience. She's my love, i can't wait to ride her! Soon! The thought makes me so happy. 

And thank you  Your training thread is inspiring.


----------



## White Foot (Jun 4, 2009)

Yay! Congratulations!!


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

Got on Socks for the first time today! I was gonna wait until the roundpen was done, but the crazy 2 year old who creates a ton of problems was sold Saturday and wasn't there spinning circles and running the fenceline making everyone nervous. I hopped on her and she heaved a big sigh. We walked, some geese flew up from the pond (about 10 of them!) and it startled her, she spooked sideways but responded really wall to my leg and soothing voice. In about 2 seconds, she was standing still just looking at them.

It was a great first time! Gonna try out her trot tomorrow. It looks dreamy from the ground!


----------



## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

Oh I'm so happy for you!! It's an awesome feeling having a great first ride with your young ones. Good job and good luck with everything else!!


----------



## Poco1220 (Apr 6, 2010)

I didn't read the whole posting here so I'm not sure if this has been discussed. When I start horses out I normally work them in saddle and halter so they get the concept of turning to pressure. Most horses that have been groundworked already understand the halter and this isnt' a big deal. After the horse is responding quietly (this may take minutes it may take weeks) I put the bridle on as well however I hook the reins to the halter and continue working that way so the bridle/bit is there but not being used yet and the horse really doesn't need to freak out about it. Once we're relaxed about having the bit in I move on to some ground driving and actually using the bridle/bit itself.


----------



## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

Thanks! Rode her again today in the mud, it ceased raining for a minute so i tacked her up and hopped on.

She is badly unbalanced. She's a small girl topping out at 13.1-ish. I'm 5'1 and about 130 lb's. I wish i had somebody smaller to get on her and get her used to balancing a rider. Since it was so muddy it made it even worse on her, so i only stayed on for maybe 10 minutes and did some circles, and working on her stops and turning off leg pressure.

I don't know if this is related or not, but she's started to practically fall over when i cinch up. I go SUPER slow, but she falls towards me and stretches her legs out kind of? I don't know what this is about but she did it every time i would try to tighten her up today, and she did it the last two times i saddled her but not as bad. Any ideas? I don't think anything is pinching or hurting her, from what i can tell.


----------



## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

I would check her girth line for sore muscles. Because the saddle and rider is relatively new it could be affecting those muscles. I usually check my guys muscles ever 2wks or so and rub out any tightness. Also if you tighten the saddle to the point where it just won't fall or slip then walk her around a bit before tightening it all the way that usually works for me. You can also stretch her legs forward after you tighten the saddle each time to make sure everything is in it's proper place.


----------

