# The Road to the Horse



## TheLovedOne

Here's what happened yesterday:

Ya I've been watching and even my hubby came to watch. OK we're both hoping "my hero" wins :smile: However, Chris has got some good moves too. But what's happened thus far is that Pat is way ahead with his horse in that he focused on building rapport and then respect. He got up onto the horse within 40 minutes and he had him moving thru obstacles and things were looking good. Then he put the saddle on - still good - then he got back on and asked him to move a bit - lateral flexion if you please - perhaps the hind end too - and then after a few step boom he started bucking and reared up and poor Pat fell off. He fell OK thou and said he was OK but I fell off a warmblood 6 years ago just like that and I tell you I was sore for at least a week. But anyway he took the saddle off and then got back up just to sit a bit. Then he was done.

Chris got his horse to accept him on without a saddle and then with a saddle and then he rode him around a bit. He did very well. He reminds me of a colt starter I met about a year ago Daryl Gibbs very good, studied with Tom Dorrance before he died. He talks a lot about the horse's spirit - very cool. I always think that words - especially written words just can't describe things very well. So much of what we do is feel and knowing is feeling. 

Then there was Clinton who didn't get very far with his horse today. No saddle but he did manage to lay on him. The horse did seem to accept him more at the end. I don't think he got as much rapport as either Pat or Chris got. He seems kind of over confident and was pushing the edge by desentizing his horse from outside the pen when he was supposed to be taking a break. Clinton constantly clucks and breathes really heavy like please guy stop with all the clucking and heavy breathing for goodness sakes you're the youngest guy here :wink:

So I guess we'll see what happens tomorrow - I can hardly wait :smile:


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## natisha

Maybe Clinton is sick. He's not normally breathing like that.


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## kitten_Val

Thanks for posting, natisha! CC is very good - I've seen his demonstrations (with problem horses) at the Expo several years back and he's a very confident trainer. I'm surprised CA didn't get very far though. May be indeed he doesn't feel well... BTW IMHO that was a shame PP couldn't sit that buck (given his riding experience). He fell off almost on 1st one when horse didn't even went bronco yet. Not trying to criticize here (yes, I don't think I'd stay either), just really surprised.


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## Northern

Thanks, TLO & natisha! Super fun to see the video of Pat getting bucked off - or falling off, which? Just ribbin' ya, Pat!

It's educational to study what went wrong there: looks to me like Pat needed to cut horse slack instead of taut rope & causing the spin - horse felt trapped. When horse went to buck, Pat still kept rope taut.

If you have to fall, though, that was a nice, harmless fall, thank goodness!

I loved how Pat just got up with a smile on his face & kept on doing his job! No anger, no frustration vented upon the colt.


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## natisha

kitten_Val said:


> Thanks for posting, natisha! CC is very good - I've seen his demonstrations (with problem horses) at the Expo several years back and he's a very confident trainer. I'm surprised CA didn't get very far though. May be indeed he doesn't feel well... BTW IMHO that was a shame PP couldn't sit that buck (given his riding experience). He fell off almost on 1st one when horse didn't even went bronco yet. Not trying to criticize here (yes, I don't think I'd stay either), just really surprised.


You're welcome.
I like CC too. He would win in the filling jeans nicely category.
CA always is the last to get on. He does as much ground work as possible.
To be fair to PP that horse didn't just buck. See how its hindquarters were at an angle to the shoulders when it went up? That's very hard to sit as it spins you off, however it is one of the softest landings (guess how I know?)


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## lilruffian

^^ i agree. Good fall though lol! I think the horse just got really spooked which is why he started spinning faster & because of the momentum of the spin i can't see many people staying on. 
I am quite able (knock on wood!) to stick with my mare when she bucks & spooks "normally" ha ha but there's a certian move she pulls at times when she _really _spooks that gets me off everytime because she does a little jump to the side that sets you off balance & then rears a little & leaps backwards and to the side which results in me pitched over her shoulder (little brat).


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## TheLovedOne

My husband corrected me too... ha. So Pat didn't get bucked off as you all saw. The horse reared up and it seemed that Pat just kind of let go and let himself fall. Maybe it was a good idea rather than pulling the horse overtop of him. He did talk about the mistake today and thought that he was a little tense on the one side and Pat thought that he pushed him too far and that's what happened.

So far today....

Chris is doing real well. He's got his horse going under saddle well despite what happened when they first brought the horses in. They tried to bring in Chris' horse and he got real scared and I think he jumped the coral panel. Then they decided to bring them in all together to reduce the stress and that worked out better. But poor Chris had to start with that and his horse was most affected by the incident. But all in all he's still doing well but I think he's a bit down.

Pat is also doing really well. He's got his horse working so nicely now under saddle. It looks real cooperative between them. He spent a lot of time on the ground working through obstacles and then standing up over him playing the squeeze. He also put balloons on his saddle and asked him to move out and that was interesting. By the time he got on he was in a pretty good state of mind. At the end Pat seemed content and I think he spoke a lot today as an educator. I think that makes him happy - you know to share.

Clinton is probably doing the worst of the three. He did get up on his horse today but the cooperation or partnership is still pretty weak. He feels that it'll get better once they're outside the pen and that'll separate the boys from the men. He was a little nasty today as well. Both Pat and Chris have offered clinics to people attending RTTH for free - like wow how great. Then Clinton said something like anything good is not worth giving away. Like what an insult to both Chris and Pat - not very good sportsmanship there. At the end he didn't seem very happy but I can't really read him.

I'll post again very soon....


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## kitten_Val

natisha said:


> CA always is the last to get on. He does as much ground work as possible.


Interesting to hear! I know he's very big about ground work. I guess we'll see then.


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## tinyliny

I don't understand why PP continued to put pressure onthe colt after he got up from the ground and the colt was bucking around the pen. What is purpose of puttig pressure on the colt after the colt just went to the extreme of bucking , due to being overpressured to begin with?

Just to add, I have NO favorite in this game. I don't know enough about any of the three. I think it is very strange to make horse gentling a timed, competitive event, but whatever . . .


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## Northern

TLO, thanks for update! Your club dues are waived!

Re: whether Pat bailed deliberately or was unhorsed: you can see, if you stop the vid at crucial points, that when the horse reared, he unseated Pat to point that Pat's left leg was behind the cantle. Yet the horse spun to the right coming down, causing Pat to be spun with him & pitched off the right side.

Pat took up too much slack off rope, horse did really nicely turning in response to that, yet Pat not offering a release (had to have been nerves; he so knows this!) caused the horse to want to get rid of the pressure.

Tinyliny, good question; Pat didn't pressure him immediately, however, in fact, he bowed to him in respect, as the horse jumped the barrel.


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## TheLovedOne

And the winner is Chris Cox. A true horseman and a sportsman!

I thought that both Chris and Pat did really well. It was close. I think that the fall cost Pat in the end but it's only my guess since everything else was performed equally well. 

I'm not going to say anything about Clinton but only this ... my husband was very upset at his "performance" and almost couldn't watch. I hope someone good buys that colt.


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## Northern

TLO, please tell me if in your opinion it was only the fall that was the tie-breaker between Pat & Chris!!

If it was, that's just wrong! It doesn't matter a fig that Pat fell, it's how the horse got shaped up!


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## TheLovedOne

Well in my opinion I think that was the only real difference. The only other thing was the backup which I couldn't really see since the camera was on Pat's horse's butt. But I think it was real good anyway judging from the back. Pat went through one obstacle with better competence but Chris went through the poles a little better. Honestly, I could not see that Chris was so much better than Pat. Tootie did say that it was the toughest to judge and it was really close. So I guess someone had to win. Maybe they should consider ties in the future ...? I would have loved that even more. Chris and Pat talked about the welfare of the horse and it's future. I so bow to them for that and their incredible performances.


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## lilruffian

Honestly, i've never even heard of Chris Cox lol All the other's i know but i was very dissapointed with Clinton. He & Pat are 2 or my favs.


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## TheLovedOne

One more thing...  Both Pat and Chris' horses really liked them and looked to them. I so respect that!!!


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## Northern

TheLovedOne said:


> Well in my opinion I think that was the only real difference. OUCH! I was afraid of that happening! The only other thing was the backup which I couldn't really see since the camera was on Pat's horse's butt. But I think it was real good anyway judging from the back. Pat went through one obstacle with better competence but Chris went through the poles a little better. Honestly, I could not see that Chris was so much better than Pat. My heart tells me that he *wasn't*!Tootie did say that it was the toughest to judge and it was really close. So I guess someone had to win. True, as the rules now stand, but in that case, they should've had Pat win cos Chris has won twice. Maybe they should consider ties in the future ...? Agreed! Three-ways, too, because that's possible to have happen. I would have loved that even more. Chris and Pat talked about the welfare of the horse and it's future. I so bow to them for that and their incredible performances.Ditto! Awesome![/QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks very much, TLO!


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## kitten_Val

TheLovedOne said:


> And the winner is Chris Cox. A true horseman and a sportsman!


No wonder, he did really good in that video posted! Congrats to him! That was a tough competition though for all of them!


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## kitten_Val

TheLovedOne said:


> I'm not going to say anything about Clinton but only this ... my husband was very upset at his "performance" and almost couldn't watch. I hope someone good buys that colt.


Did he actually get on horse at all?


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## bsms

A viewer's perspective here:

Inside the 2011 Road to the Horse | EquiSearch


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## TheLovedOne

kitten_Val said:


> Did he actually get on horse at all?


He did ride his colt. But it's just not what my husband's used to seeing. I have seen way worse but I wouldn't be proud of that if I were Clinton.


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## MyBoyPuck

Yey Chris Cox! I talked to him at Equine Affair last fall. He is such a nice guy. I love his training methods.


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## TheLovedOne

You know what BSMS that article has at least one fact wrong. After Parelli fell he did get back on but he removed the saddle and got up and just sat a spell.


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## JustDressageIt

Cox, Anderson, Parelli. 
Interesting video. I think what struck me most was how much stuff there was in Parelli's pen. Camera panned past: clean pen, clean pen, pen full of desensitization stuff. 
I also noticed that the other two got their horses' minds off the ruckus in Parelli's pen, and didn't try and do anything too heroic while that was going on. 
What I saw in the video: he got too cocky. Got the horse to yield to pressure, and got the crowd going. Instead of releasing and saying "good horse," he pushed just that one bit too far. Part of being a great horseman is knowing when to quit pushing and say "good horse. Well done."


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## Northern

TheLovedOne said:


> You know what BSMS that article has at least one fact wrong. After Parelli fell he did get back on but he removed the saddle and got up and just sat a spell.


Oh! Thanks for telling us, TLO! That was the right thing to do!

After reading the articles, I'm more convinced than ever that Pat was as good as Chris! Pat did all obstacles cleanly, with a calm horse!

Does anyone know if they're judged by the training + obstacle course/freestyle, or are they judged by the obstacle/freestyle alone?


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## TheLovedOne

Yep I know. Pat was as good as Chris and maybe better but oh well that's how it goes in these competitions.


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## lilruffian

JustDressageIt said:


> Cox, Anderson, Parelli.
> Interesting video. I think what struck me most was how much stuff there was in Parelli's pen. Camera panned past: clean pen, clean pen, pen full of desensitization stuff.
> I also noticed that the other two got their horses' minds off the ruckus in Parelli's pen, and didn't try and do anything too heroic while that was going on.
> What I saw in the video: he got too cocky. Got the horse to yield to pressure, and got the crowd going. Instead of releasing and saying "good horse," he pushed just that one bit too far. Part of being a great horseman is knowing when to quit pushing and say "good horse. Well done."


 Totally agree. Pat worked more on getting his horse's confidence around more than just himself than the others did & although he got dumped, it was obvious why and the other's didnt "push" or test their horses as much as Pat.


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## bsms

I'm not a big Parelli fan, but something I respected in the article I read was that he agreed with JustDressageIt:

“I’m not sore in any way,” Parelli replied. “You need to focus on four things with a horse: rapport, respect, impulsion and flexion. The two things I’m gonna focus on today are respect and flexion. He gave me a green light on the left side, but a yellow light on the right side. I made a mistake yesterday and pushed over the limit.”

Inside the 2011 Road to the Horse | EquiSearch

I respect someone who is under a lot of scrutiny, and will still say, "I screwed up."


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## Northern

bsms said:


> I respect someone who is under a lot of scrutiny, and will still say, "I screwed up."


THIS!^ Excellent of Pat to do so!


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## JustDressageIt

I prefer Cox and Anderson, and am not shocked at the results of the competition. I think Parelli tried too much in too little time. In my humble opinion, he didn't need all that stuff in his pen, and I think perhaps it was a case of asking for way too much all at once.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EternalSun

So was the winner announced yet???
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/size

Oh whoops. Just read it was Chris : ). Yay!


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## kitten_Val

JustDressageIt said:


> I also noticed that the other two got their horses' minds off the ruckus in Parelli's pen, and didn't try and do anything too heroic while that was going on.


Yes, that's what jumped at me too in the video. And I think it was a right way to go.


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## Walkamile

Yay Chris! One of my very favorite trainers/horseman out there.


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## Northern

I want to correct myself: in viewing vid again, I was mistaken to think that Pat's left leg went behind the cantle.


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## Peggysue

There are THREE scores turned in by each judge 
Day One Round Pen 
Day Two ROund Pen 
and obstacle course...

the difficutly of the horse is judged... Pat's horse SHOULD have been easy he did NOT set that horse up to succeed I ... this was my sixth or seventh RTTH and I have never watched a trainer and been as confused as I was by Pat. Good thing he took that colt home since he taught it to buck. Clinton showed his true colors when they announced the winner by riding out without even congratulating Chris once again. Pat was a good talker and I wanted to shove his mike where the sun didn't shine his is sooo irratating. 

Chris is a true horseman thur and thur hopefully some of the PP followers will realize the error of Pat's ways now. 

Chris had a nice started horse at the end of today, Clinton has reactive horse that IMO he did what needed done to be get it's respect....


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## thebundychick

Peggysue said:


> There are THREE scores turned in by each judge
> Day One Round Pen
> Day Two ROund Pen
> and obstacle course...
> 
> the difficutly of the horse is judged... Pat's horse SHOULD have been easy he did NOT set that horse up to succeed I ... this was my sixth or seventh RTTH and I have never watched a trainer and been as confused as I was by Pat. Good thing he took that colt home since he taught it to buck. Clinton showed his true colors when they announced the winner by riding out without even congratulating Chris once again. Pat was a good talker and I wanted to shove his mike where the sun didn't shine his is sooo irratating.
> 
> Chris is a true horseman thur and thur hopefully some of the PP followers will realize the error of Pat's ways now.
> 
> Chris had a nice started horse at the end of today, Clinton has reactive horse that IMO he did what needed done to be get it's respect....


Pat made a single error of judgement on the first day, I'd hardly call that setting the horse up to fail.... the softness in the horses eyes today spoke volumes of the horses mental state. The horse doesnt' lie.

From all reports it didnt' buck on the second day - So I'd say bucking issue solved?

As a recently dissallusioned parelli follower, I would say that Pat actually did VOLUMES in settling the worried hearts of his fans. Mine included. 

Pats horse was the ONLY horse not sweated up on teh first day.

Chris did an absolutely amazing job, and I will be following him closely, I will learn so much from him - he deserved his win

Clearly, you are a CA follower. He DID NOT do what was required to get that horses respect. because if he had, he would have won, if he had, he wouldn't have been arguing on teh second day. If he had, I wouldn't have been staring at pictures of Clints horse, gaping mouthed, bit practically severing blood supply to his tongue. Terrified whites of his eyes for basically the ENTIRE time Clint was in the saddle. he wanted a horse with more go - he got it. 

I only pray that someone like Pat or Chris buy that poor **** colt and start the poor soul again.

A disgusting show of horsemanship that doesn't deserve the title of "Natural"


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## rocky pony

Gosh, I wish I'd been there! I've been sucking up all the information about how it went all night lol

It seems like all did well, but Chris Cox is just something else. What a horseman. I don't expect anybody to beat him as long as he is competing. Never have, never will.
I've been watching his show for years and saw him at a few expos, always just loved his style. IMHO there's not a single popular clinician in today's horse world who comes close to him.

I was so disappointed to read what somebody (me being too lazy to read all the way back to find who it was) had posted, about the free clinics and the comments made by Clinton about that (and the other instances). Very poor sportsmanship from somebody I had always very much respected. I don't consider him to be anywhere near the best horseman, but felt that he has had a great program for beginners (while somebody like Cox for instance probably wouldn't be the best for most beginners). I've been noticing him seeming cockier over the years. Don't know how I feel about promoting somebody with that kind of attitude...


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## franknbeans

As one who is just returning from an awesome three days, I have to say that those of you watching the webcast could not get the entire picture, so to judge any of the competition by what you could see is a bit short sited. Obviously lots happened than you all could see or hear. I will say that Pat started with the shied comments on the first day, so CLintons comments were a reaction to that. Yes, PAts horse DID buck the second day, quite bit actually. The real difference in the end was the total softness of Chris horse. Amazing for sure. Much softer than pats thru the entire final performance. It was not the fall that was the difference, but the horsemanship and error in judgement that caused it that cost Pat points.

Apologize if this is cryptic, not used to this iPad.more later


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## TheLovedOne

I think that everyone could see what Clinton is made of and I can't believe that anyone would respect him especially now. There is nothing anyone could have said to provoke that attitude and that horrible display of horsemanship. Please I believe people on this forum are a little more intelligent than that.


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## JustDressageIt

TLO, a lot of people say the same about Parelli.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans

I had started a detailed answer then lost it when my phone rang. All I can say is those who weren't there the whole 3 days did not see the whole picture. Period. They were all awesome in different ways. In the end, the one who just quietly went on and got it done was the winner. The softness of his horse and the connection they had made the difference, imo. It truly was extremely close.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peggysue

thebundychick said:


> Pat made a single error of judgement on the first day, I'd hardly call that setting the horse up to fail.... the softness in the horses eyes today spoke volumes of the horses mental state. The horse doesnt' lie.
> 
> From all reports it didnt' buck on the second day - So I'd say bucking issue solved?
> 
> As a recently dissallusioned parelli follower, I would say that Pat actually did VOLUMES in settling the worried hearts of his fans. Mine included.
> 
> Pats horse was the ONLY horse not sweated up on teh first day.
> 
> Chris did an absolutely amazing job, and I will be following him closely, I will learn so much from him - he deserved his win
> 
> Clearly, you are a CA follower. He DID NOT do what was required to get that horses respect. because if he had, he would have won, if he had, he wouldn't have been arguing on teh second day. If he had, I wouldn't have been staring at pictures of Clints horse, gaping mouthed, bit practically severing blood supply to his tongue. Terrified whites of his eyes for basically the ENTIRE time Clint was in the saddle. he wanted a horse with more go - he got it.
> 
> I only pray that someone like Pat or Chris buy that poor **** colt and start the poor soul again.
> 
> A disgusting show of horsemanship that doesn't deserve the title of "Natural"


Far from a CA follower maybe you didn't READ my reply above very well.. the right person won and honestly I have been to SEVEN RTTH's and there was no method to Pat's madness which is why he didn't win...his colt NEVER relaxed his round pen for day two was right in front of me and I have NEVER seen a colt stay that tense in day two. 

Besides PP followers we all expected him to get dumped again in round three. 




franknbeans said:


> I had started a detailed answer then lost it when my phone rang. All I can say is those who weren't there the whole 3 days did not see the whole picture. Period. They were all awesome in different ways. In the end, the one who just quietly went on and got it done was the winner. The softness of his horse and the connection they had made the difference, imo. It truly was extremely close.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well said !!


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## TheLovedOne

I think that both Pat and Chris are amazing horseman. Clinton is aggressive and speaking of bucking - his horse bucked right up until the very end. Well done Clinton. 

Both Chris and Pat went through the course very well and completed every obstacle. So I think the PP mouths really are just once again making up stories.


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## TheLovedOne

thebundychick said:


> As a recently dissallusioned parelli follower, I would say that Pat actually did VOLUMES in settling the worried hearts of his fans. Mine included.
> 
> Pats horse was the ONLY horse not sweated up on teh first day.
> 
> Chris did an absolutely amazing job, and I will be following him closely, I will learn so much from him - he deserved his win
> 
> Clearly, you are a CA follower. He DID NOT do what was required to get that horses respect. because if he had, he would have won, if he had, he wouldn't have been arguing on teh second day. If he had, I wouldn't have been staring at pictures of Clints horse, gaping mouthed, bit practically severing blood supply to his tongue. Terrified whites of his eyes for basically the ENTIRE time Clint was in the saddle. he wanted a horse with more go - he got it.
> 
> I only pray that someone like Pat or Chris buy that poor **** colt and start the poor soul again.
> 
> A disgusting show of horsemanship that doesn't deserve the title of "Natural"


Couldn't agree with you more!


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## Peggysue

Clinton's horse NEVER bucked... it kicked up in protest to being asked to do things...

Chris's horse did the same thing

CA was/tends to get over aggressive but his methods done right (Chris Cox) work he just applies too much pressure and not enough release... 

Pat had no system... he would apply pressure get no or a bad reaction and release with no accomplishment IMO I was six rows up from the areana and could see what he was doing just fine...he did not prepare that colt for the saddle how his ride ended up as well as it did is beyond me ... I credit the great breeding of the horse more then the trainer.. in the beginning they stated how those "Paddy" colts are born friendly and ready to be broke and that they normally don't buck! 

Clinton and Chris use the same methods just Clinton is sledge hammer and Chris is a feather


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## Peggysue

Pat's horses was drenched day two when Chris and Clinton's horse hadn't broke a sweat does that mean he was too rough the second day?


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## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> Clinton's horse NEVER bucked... it kicked up in protest to being asked to do things...


Of course he bucked. Kicking up bucking whatever.



Peggysue said:


> CA was/tends to get over aggressive but his methods done right (Chris Cox) work he just applies too much pressure and not enough release...


Chris is not like Clinton. Chris is a good sportsman and a good horseman. Clinton is neither.



Peggysue said:


> Pat had no system...


Just because you don't understand what someone is doing doesn't mean that they have no plan or system. Pat would never have been able to ride that horse if he didn't know what he's doing. I would seriously like to see you compete at that event. If you did I am sure you would find heaven sooner than I could sneeze.


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## TheLovedOne

Chris' horse did not buck in the last round however Clinton's did right up until the end.

I wasn't upset that Pat lost. I thought that Chris did a good job and his horse was really with him as a partner at the end - gotta love that. However, Clinton's performance was upsetting and disgusting.


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## TheLovedOne

Furthermore, all I can say to Clinton Anderson is that the horse will get his revenge. You just wait.


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## Peggysue

ok so I raise my left arm with my flag in my right what direction shoudl the horse go?? 

Chris and Clinton us the same method pressure and release the difference is the amount of pressure and timing of release. 

Chris is hands down the better horseman. 

How many of theses trainers have you met or seen in person? Sat and watched for two or three days?

Have you seen the video where Pat gets thrown?? He does not bail he is unseated on the first jump and falls off!!! 

I never said or claimed I could do it but haivng watched it every year it has been in TN so 7 years now Ihave NEVER been lost or confused by a trainer until now. 

Horses learn by pressure and release. Pat had the horse that should have been easiest to train and he rushed it after making snide comments at Clinton. Clinton didn't start the ****ing match Pat did...

Pat made the comment, "I no longer have Young Man's Disease, I won't get on a horse until I KNOW it won't buck" then half hour later his horse is bucking him off.

You haven't watched enough of either Chris or Clinton to see the same method being applied differently. Chris has amuch softer kinder approach where Clinton is balls to the wall all the time.

CLinton is sledge hammer 
Chris is feather


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## Peggysue

I am not defending Clinton or what he did. I am saying it is the same method applied two different ways.


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## TheLovedOne

Peggysue I am quite sure you couldn't compete in a competition like that and watching for 7 years doesn't make you an authority. You have your opinion and I'll have mine.


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## Peggysue

Did I claim to say I could compete?? Did I say I was authority.. unlike the PP followers I don't JUDGE anybody..I also am no bashing any other trainer. In fact I haven't seen ANY CC follower bash Pat or Clinton. Don't you wish you could say the same

Clinton was a bad sportmans and tries too hard to be the alpha in the relationship. 

Watch the video of Pat's fall I have several times I was unset that I missed the first buck off at RTTH, not trainer had went off of a horse there until this year and there have been some pretty good rodeos in those round pens

it amazes me at the PP followers who think he does no wrong, why is it that his horse was the ONLY one that bucked when saddled? Why is it that his horse was the only one that bucked when mounted and asked to move off? Could it be that he didn't prepare the horse for success? 

My problem with PP is not the man himself but his cult like following and that he is more of advertisment then trainer.


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## Peggysue

TheLovedOne have you EVER went to a Road to the Horse?


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## Cobalt

So here are my thoughts after attending RTTH. I watched everything...didn't miss a single minute. Had great, up front seats and had a bird's eye view of all 3 of them for at least 1 of their sessions. I had a close view of CA both sessions. Close view of CC on day 1 and Close view of PP on day 2. 

Here was my bias going in: I was not a fan of CA or PP and was completely rooting for CC.

How I left: Thrilled that CC won (I felt it was well earned). Completely disgusted with CA. Pleasantly surprised by PP.

I thought that the horses were quite evenly matched in "difficulty." While CA's seemed the most resistant, I believe some of that has to do with the unrelenting sledgehammer approach he uses. Nothing about his demeanor is calming or inviting. At first I thought PP had the easiest horse, but as I watched, I realized that horse was no picnic. I thought CC's horse was challenging as well. So for me, it wasn't a case where the horses made the competition very lopsided.

I thought that CC did the best job all around. He was the right combination between assertive and passive. That's a very difficult line to walk but I thought he did a great job. His win was well deserved and I thought of the 3, he was the most humble in outward appearance. He was aslo kind and gracious to the other competitors.

CA made me disgusted time and time again. He ran that horse into mental and physical exhaustion and then denied the horse the rest period by trying to "desensitize" the horse from outside the pen. Very, very poor judgement on his part. That horse NEEDED and DESERVED that meager time away from him. He kept putting his chair near the horse when the horse moved away. He didn't care if the horse had any water either. The crowd tried to get him to give the horse a drink but not until the very end of the last session did he offer the horse water...and of course the horse wasn't going to take it from him so he didn't get more than a mouthful. He was hard on that horse's mouth. He was hard on that horse period. That horse is going to have a very negative impression of human interaction. No wonder nobody purchased the horse. Throughout, his comments and demeanor were rude and outright snarky. His sportsmanship was appalling.

PP did get a little annoying with his constant mumbling commentary. I got tired of his "infomercial." I expected that, though. What I didn't expect was to see how much progress he made. I couldn't always make sense out of what he was doing--but there's no denying that it worked. His horse was turned out better than CA's by a mile and was almost as good as CC's. His getting thrown was NO reflection of his ability to ride. That is just silly to hear people say. Whether you hate him or love him there is no doubt the man has an accomplished seat. I thought it was good that he admitted to his mistake because he clearly made one. He didn't make any excuses. I liked that. I was glad to see him stick to his principles of love and leadership--honestly as much as it pains me to admit it I saw exactly that from him this weekend.

All in all it was an exciting weekend!! Can't wait to see who will be there next year!


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## Peggysue

Cobalt aren't the front row seats thrilling and disappointing at the same time? It's great that you are "right" there for round 3 but that far pen always seems to be the best one

I was surprised at how well PP's colt did in round 3 I was directly next to his pen for Round 2 and didn't expect it at all. He did a good job I have just never been that lost in all of them I have been too. I won't buy his stuff to try and understand but I will look into whatever method he was using... means looking into the DOrrance brothers more .. and I can't remember the other name he kept saying do you remember it?

BTW was it here that it was mentioned he did it without a bit? If you look at the RTTH FB page of day one he did bit the horse but after his problems he never did again. 

I found his "young man's disease" comment offensive and funny at the same time ... when it was followed by I don't get on until I KNOW the horse isn't gonna buck then his did. 

He did the same thing Clinton did in 2008 he put on a show and didn't train the horse until he realized there was more to the horse then he thought.


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## mom2pride

I was there personally, and I can tell you from a non judgmental and from a trainer's point of veiw that all the trainers did well with their particular methods. I went to RTTH open minded, and hoping for a great show, of which it was, from all three trainers...the end results were evidence of that. I would like to see those who are debating here do the same thing these three men did in 4 hours and have the same result...

I was not surprised with how CA worked with his colt. He emphasizes groundwork in every clinic he puts on, so I was not surprised with how much ground time he spent on his horse. I train much the same way; ground work is so important, especially if you are working with previously trained horses who have become spoiled, or horses you have pulled from out in a pasture for the first time in their life. That he rode bridleless DOES speak volumes of the respect he gained from his horse, and that is what I really appreciate about CA's methods. 

I have also seen CC several times, so was not surprised with his methods either, and I really appreciate how quiet he is with his horses; his horse really responded to that, and when he came out into the arena and started his rail work, I KNEW that I was watching the winning ride...he did an amazing job with that horse in the time he had, and the horse looked and acted much more finished than a '4 hour training job'. 

I DO think that in certain areas PP DID push his colt too hard in the beginning, and did not do enough preparation before getting on his horse for the first time (he was trying to stand on the horse within 20 minutes). He had done little ground work, had done no prep work such as bending, or flexing that could have saved his tail from getting thrown later on in the round, and he in my opinion committed one of the biggest mistakes a trainer can do; getting on a first time colt with tons of equipment in the pen...that could have caused a huge wreck, and could have gotten both him and the horse seriously injured. PP fans, disagree with me if you want, but he did not prepare that horse for being ridden, plain and simple. The evidence of that spoke volumes in round 2 when he had to spend pretty much the entire time trying to get the horse resensitized to saddle and rider, and the horse spending half that time throwing bucking fits. I was pleased with the end result, however, if not surprised, considering he had little time on the horse after all the bronc session time. The horse came through well for him.

On the thing of PP offering 'free dvds' they were not...it was a bait and switch. He offered them free in the program even (no disclaimers), but when my friend and I went up to his booth, figuring, why not? Only to go up there and find out in order to get the free levels you had to sign up for a mini membership for over 150$...people were pretty peeved. 

Now alot of what you see on RTTH as well, is SOOOOOOOO deduced...CA admits that he spends up to 2 weeks getting into the ground work of a new horse...and when you have 4 hours, you have to condense quite a bit. Same with Parelli and Cox...What you see in a competition like this is probably so condensed that you really aren't getting the real gist of how these trainers train on a normal level.


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## nrhareiner

tinyliny said:


> I don't understand why PP continued to put pressure onthe colt after he got up from the ground and the colt was bucking around the pen. What is purpose of puttig pressure on the colt after the colt just went to the extreme of bucking , due to being overpressured to begin with?
> 
> Just to add, I have NO favorite in this game. I don't know enough about any of the three. I think it is very strange to make horse gentling a timed, competitive event, but whatever . . .


I agree he over pressured the horse to begin with. However after the fact you need to make the horse think it is your idea that he is running and bucking. Nothing a horse does should be their idea when you are working with them.


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## nrhareiner

JustDressageIt said:


> Cox, Anderson, Parelli.
> Interesting video. I think what struck me most was how much stuff there was in Parelli's pen. Camera panned past: clean pen, clean pen, pen full of desensitization stuff.
> I also noticed that the other two got their horses' minds off the ruckus in Parelli's pen, and didn't try and do anything too heroic while that was going on.
> What I saw in the video: he got too cocky. Got the horse to yield to pressure, and got the crowd going. Instead of releasing and saying "good horse," he pushed just that one bit too far. Part of being a great horseman is knowing when to quit pushing and say "good horse. Well done."


That is my thought also. It was not the fall that could have caused PP to loose but the reason behind the fall.


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## Peggysue

my biggest disgust with Clinton was the way he reacted when he didnt' win, I was hoping that the last time he didn't win had humbled him some but I guess not.


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## Alwaysbehind

Thanks for the reports/updates from all of you who were there.


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## TheLovedOne

Cobalt said:


> How I left: Thrilled that CC won (I felt it was well earned). Completely disgusted with CA. Pleasantly surprised by PP.


Me too.



Cobalt said:


> No wonder nobody purchased the horse.


Do you know for certain nobody did? I feel so sorry for him I'm actually considering him...



Cobalt said:


> PP did get a little annoying with his constant mumbling commentary. I got tired of his "infomercial."


I can understand that.


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## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> BTW was it here that it was mentioned he did it without a bit? If you look at the RTTH FB page of day one he did bit the horse but after his problems he never did again.


Yes I thought that the bit actually caused the problem. The horse just felt too pressured by it. I wonder if he thought that he had to use a bit - competition rules. Later he asked for more clarification about the rules.



Peggysue said:


> I found his "young man's disease" comment offensive and funny at the same time ... when it was followed by I don't get on until I KNOW the horse isn't gonna buck then his did.


Pat always talks about young man's disease. He's talking about himself not others. He was very abusive to horses when he was young.

Anyways the best man won.


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## farmpony84

I don't know alot about Cox. I actually would like to see more of his videos. It looks like he takes a much slower approach with the horses?

Parelli has never impressed me, to me he's actually a little "In your face" with the horses.


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## franknbeans

mom2pride said:


> I was there personally, and I can tell you from a non judgmental and from a trainer's point of veiw that all the trainers did well with their particular methods. I went to RTTH open minded, and hoping for a great show, of which it was, from all three trainers...the end results were evidence of that. I would like to see those who are debating here do the same thing these three men did in 4 hours and have the same result...
> 
> I was not surprised with how CA worked with his colt. He emphasizes groundwork in every clinic he puts on, so I was not surprised with how much ground time he spent on his horse. I train much the same way; ground work is so important, especially if you are working with previously trained horses who have become spoiled, or horses you have pulled from out in a pasture for the first time in their life. That he rode bridleless DOES speak volumes of the respect he gained from his horse, and that is what I really appreciate about CA's methods.
> 
> I have also seen CC several times, so was not surprised with his methods either, and I really appreciate how quiet he is with his horses; his horse really responded to that, and when he came out into the arena and started his rail work, I KNEW that I was watching the winning ride...he did an amazing job with that horse in the time he had, and the horse looked and acted much more finished than a '4 hour training job'.
> 
> I DO think that in certain areas PP DID push his colt too hard in the beginning, and did not do enough preparation before getting on his horse for the first time (he was trying to stand on the horse within 20 minutes). He had done little ground work, had done no prep work such as bending, or flexing that could have saved his tail from getting thrown later on in the round, and he in my opinion committed one of the biggest mistakes a trainer can do; getting on a first time colt with tons of equipment in the pen...that could have caused a huge wreck, and could have gotten both him and the horse seriously injured. PP fans, disagree with me if you want, but he did not prepare that horse for being ridden, plain and simple. The evidence of that spoke volumes in round 2 when he had to spend pretty much the entire time trying to get the horse resensitized to saddle and rider, and the horse spending half that time throwing bucking fits. I was pleased with the end result, however, if not surprised, considering he had little time on the horse after all the bronc session time. The horse came through well for him.
> 
> On the thing of PP offering 'free dvds' they were not...it was a bait and switch. He offered them free in the program even (no disclaimers), but when my friend and I went up to his booth, figuring, why not? Only to go up there and find out in order to get the free levels you had to sign up for a mini membership for over 150$...people were pretty peeved.
> 
> Now alot of what you see on RTTH as well, is SOOOOOOOO deduced...CA admits that he spends up to 2 weeks getting into the ground work of a new horse...and when you have 4 hours, you have to condense quite a bit. Same with Parelli and Cox...What you see in a competition like this is probably so condensed that you really aren't getting the real gist of how these trainers train on a normal level.


 
Agree totally. You just saved me a LOT of typing! :wink:

I did really get weary with PP's constant ads for his clinics, etc, his constant yammering on and on. I aslo wondered as I listened to him.....lets see, colt startong, Cow wow (as I affectionately call "cow whispering" after his cow demo), his regular horse training he is so well known for, now also a diet program, which he has on his site.....perhaps stick to one or 2 things? Just thinking.....:wink: I got the impression that even Tootie was a little tired of his antics as evidenced by some of her comments to him during the walk through of the course.

I was also very disappointed in CA not being a good sport at all in the end. However, I will say I did not find his remarks at all uncalled for, after 2 days of snied snarky remarks directed at his and his program, his cow demo, etc. I was actually rather glad he finally said something!

To those who weren't there-you really needed to be there and see the whole picture. You cannot truly judge the whole thing unless you* saw the WHOLE thing. *Altho webcasts are great-they do have limits. However, I do envy that you did not have to watch Tomas 3 times, making his horses hop around on their knees. That actually disgusted me. What is the purpose of that? Reallly?

THis will be a very difficult show to follow. Perhaps they should try and have 3 women? Stacy and 2 others? Not sure, but just a thought.


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## Peggysue

did anybody else that was there think that Tomas palomino looked off on the LF?? I noticed it waiting for him to come in on Sat when he was in the gateway waiting the horse seemed off and then hopped it's turn arounds


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## Alwaysbehind

Frank, I did not watch it, I am only reading about it here. What do you mean by comments on his cow demo?


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## franknbeans

Peggy-I couldn't get past looking at that horses mane.....a bit TOO much, IMO. Perhaps that was the horse who USED to have to hop on his knees......

AB-there was a remark made on the first day...and from where I was, you could almost feel the crowd gasp when PP made it. CA had done a cow cutting demo, as is characteristic of CA, it was fast paced, and pretty typical of what I would expect a cow demo to be. Then PP came out with 5 of his interns, (Callie was FABULOUS, BTW!) and they "worked" cows. It was like slow motion, with PP talking and instructing the entire time. Anyway, PP made a comment that now you will see an "artful" demo of cow cutting, not the (rough) (don't remember the exact word) one you just saw.....and there it started. At least that was where I thought it began.


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## Alwaysbehind

Wow, that is pretty darn rude.

Thanks for explaining.


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## Peggysue

Frank did you find it comical that his horse bucked him off after his comments about "young men's disease" and not mounting until he was SURE the horse was ready?

Did I miss him preparing that horse to be mounted and teaching it to give to pressure? I am not being mean here I was just so confused by him and am really trying to figure out what he was doing..google is not helping everybody I am finding talking about it feels the same way


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## nrhareiner

franknbeans said:


> Peggy-I couldn't get past looking at that horses mane.....a bit TOO much, IMO. Perhaps that was the horse who USED to have to hop on his knees......
> 
> AB-there was a remark made on the first day...and from where I was, you could almost feel the crowd gasp when PP made it. CA had done a cow cutting demo, as is characteristic of CA, it was fast paced, and pretty typical of what I would expect a cow demo to be. Then PP came out with 5 of his interns, (Callie was FABULOUS, BTW!) and they "worked" cows. It was like slow motion, with PP talking and instructing the entire time. Anyway, PP made a comment that now you will see an "artful" demo of cow cutting, not the (rough) (don't remember the exact word) one you just saw.....and there it started. At least that was where I thought it began.


I have seen PP work cattle. Nothing artful about it.


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## franknbeans

Honestly, I did not find his fall comical, but, I did think he pushed too much too soon. As when anyone falls, I was really concerned until I saw him get up and move. That horse was so animated, I was afraid he would come down on Pat. I did not want to see anyone hurt, horse or human.

I do not think you missed anything. I was also SO confused that first day. It seemed he was throwing everything at that colt, including standing on him in the first few minutes, which I was totally shocked by. Too much, too fast, IMO. I did not think he took the time to really get that little horse comfortable with anything that first day.....just how I saw it. 

Chris was nothing short of awesome, and it seemed that he just kept drawing the "short straw". Day one he was the only one whose mike didn;t work, so he could only talk when on breaks. Then the whole incident yesterday when they tried to bring his colt in....the colt turned and ran back out the gate....they brought him back......he turned and ran AGAIN, his time jumping over the get (I think he jumped-I sure did not see it open!). So now the colt knew the way out..a definite disadvantage. Then-his mike did not work again.....and they had him change it. They were trying to not stop the clock to change it, until the crowd "convinced" them otherwise.
Inspite of it all-just staying quiet and getting it done won out.


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## franknbeans

nrhareiner said:


> I have seen PP work cattle. Nothing artful about it.


Exactly. He gives clinics on that now too, you know?:wink:


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## Peggysue

not the fall as much as the bucking after that comment. I don't want to see anybody get hurt... but I won't deny I wait each year for one to go off and when it finally happened i missed it.. I had left with about 16 minutes to go CC and CA were both out of the pens and I couldn't really SEE Pat from where I was sitting that day...and I figured it was pretty much over for the day. I have watched the video but it's not the same. 

I understand why he got on the fence and barrel but not sure what he was trying to do when he was on the barrel after he didn't get the horse up to him when he was on the fence. I felt so sorry for that little horse and CA's horse at that point

CA had several good spots to take a break that he didn't take and when he did the horse was basically shut down and too scared to move. CA has never impressed me from the first time I saw him. 

Chris worked in a nice steady easy manner both days giving the horse plenty of breaks and time to soak which I liked


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## Northern

Cobalt said:


> PP did get a little annoying with his constant mumbling commentary. I got tired of his "infomercial." I expected that, though. What I didn't expect was to see how much progress he made. I couldn't always make sense out of what he was doing--but *there's no denying that it worked*. THERE we go! His horse was turned out better than CA's by a mile and was almost as good as CC's. His getting thrown was NO reflection of his ability to ride. That is just silly to hear people say. Whether you hate him or love him there is no doubt the man has an accomplished seat. I thought it was good that he admitted to his mistake because he clearly made one. He didn't make any excuses. I liked that. I was glad to see him stick to his principles of love and leadership--honestly *as much as it pains me to admit it *LOL! why does it pain so many to admit it?! I saw exactly that from him this weekend.!


Cobalt, your whole post was great! Just wanted to highlight a couple of points of your PP commentary.

I think that the *proof is in the pudding*, therefore, the rules of judging the training are wrong. (Thanks to whoever explained them!) Some people didn't understand what Pat was doing, so were surprised that it worked, so the same could've been true of one or more judges, to Pat's detriment. So, just judge by the obstacles/freestyle & watch the training for your own learning & entertainment.

I, being familiar with Pat's way with horses, believe that the training part would've been clear to me. Since it's about the relationship with Pat, so much that transpires between him & a horse is intangible: the good "feel".


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## sarahver

I am not a lover, or a hater of any of the three trainers, just an observer. In fact, I wanted to see each of them win for different reasons; I wanted to see Pat win because I think he has had a rough year and it would have redeemed him some, I wanted to see Clinton win cos he is an Aussie and I wanted to see Chris win cos he is the underdog.

All reasons are completely separate from their ability as trainers.

Anyway, here is what I observed:

1.) Pat seemed to be trying to prove a point. I may not be a world famous trainer (!) but I do know that you should never try to prove a point with a horse because they will just prove you wrong. I think he went into the ring with too much riding on his shoulders and pushed too hard, too fast. I don't think he would have done this a couple of years ago, he would have relied more on his natural timing and feel. If he hadn't have tried so hard, he probably would have won.

2.) Clinton, Clinton, where were you? In la la land. Doesn't work with horses, he seemed to be defeated before he even began. No idea what was going on with him but I am sure he is capable of more.

3.) Chris - just got on with the job. He seemed focused, responsive, didn't try to prove anything and didn't try to do too much. He just had good timing and good feel and was the best man on the day. Congratulations to him.

To be honest, I am glad that Chris Cox won because in reality, PP and CA don't need any more exposure. Also, I would have hated to see WWIII break out if either PP or CA won and have to hear the supporters of the opposite team whine and moan about why _their_ hero should have won. :wink:


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## franknbeans

I had never really seen CC, but he is the one my trainer follows. I was totally amazed as I watched him...felt like I was watching my trainer. 

I like CA, and, even PP at times. They all have something to offer. I thought PP's ride on friday was really good. When he came out I thought perhaps he was a bit humbled and had changed. The whole thing had me thinking perhaps he wasn't so bad.....but then....he started yammering, advertising and it all got flushed down the toilet.
They all have something to offer. The other thing that struck me at times was that really, they all do many of the same things in a different way. The perfect example was the saddle pad. They all approached their horses almost the same with that.....approach and retreat, both sides....just one example.
I try to watch and soak a lot in with them as well as both of my trainers....the NY one (CC one) as well as the Va one (the PP one)......they all have lots to offer and certainly know more than I do. ;-)


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## Peggysue

Northern he entered the contest to show and be judged on his methods...he knew how the scoring was done so that is a mute point. But then again I don't think he read the rules before entering by some of the questions he asked. 

They not only judge the trainers but the horses and the way they respond to the trainer as well. There is more to it then WHAT is being done but how as well. the horse is also judge on difficulty


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## nrhareiner

franknbeans said:


> Exactly. He gives clinics on that now too, you know?:wink:



That is just scary.


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## franknbeans

Northern said:


> Cobalt, your whole post was great! Just wanted to highlight a couple of points of your PP commentary.
> 
> I think that the *proof is in the pudding*, therefore, the rules of judging the training are wrong. (Thanks to whoever explained them!) Some people didn't understand what Pat was doing, so were surprised that it worked, so the same could've been true of one or more judges, to Pat's detriment. So, just judge by the obstacles/freestyle & watch the training for your own learning & entertainment.
> 
> I, being familiar with Pat's way with horses, believe that the training part would've been clear to me. Since it's about the relationship with Pat, so much that transpires between him & a horse is intangible: the good "feel".


Are you saying you think PP should have won? Really? Guess you missed the softness of CC's horse and the connection between them. Sorry for that.


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## Peggysue

No what she was saying is doesn't matter HOW they get there as long as they get there... which means tie them up and hobble them whatever it takes as long as you get the end result


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## bsms

As a newbie, I didn't even know this existed. Looks like it might be worth saving up for a trip next year...


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## Peggysue

it is so worth the trip no matter what trainers are in the arena


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## franknbeans

BSMS-it was wonderful. I will say tho, I doubt there has ever or will ever be another like this given the competitors.


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## nrhareiner

The thing is this is a contest of how you start a colt. Hence the colt starting contest. Not how well you get to the end product. If it was the all you would/should see in the end part. They are being judged on EVERYTHING. Not just the OC.


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## franknbeans

nrhareiner said:


> That is just scary.


Truly. Wow with Cows....will run 4/18-22, and cost $5K! (just in case you want to go). :wink:


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## kitten_Val

franknbeans said:


> Truly. Wow with Cows....will run 4/18-22, and *cost $5K! * (just in case you want to go). :wink:


Wow! That one is for rich people I guess. Paying that much for the clinic with non-professional in the discipline... 

OT, but... Folks, how much (approximately) the living for those 3 days there cost (hotel, transportation, etc.)? And when you buy the ticket does it have assigned seat or not? (curious because based on comments I have a feeling people sat in different places each day)


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## Northern

*frank&beans*, I'm not saying that PP should have beat CC, because by all reports, CC was impeccable. Yet, I qualify that by saying that if PP was indeed as clean as CC in the obstacles/freestyle, then it should have been announced as what it WAS, which was a tie! Yet the rules don't allow for a tie, which, imo, is another flaw in the rules. There sure could be a tie & even a three-way tie & what's the *point* of not admitting it if it happens?

My point is: HOW can you judge whether a trainer did a good job *except by the result? Obviously, you cannot.*

*"Your result was great, but your training sucked!" is an oxymoron!*

Since Pat took the horse through the obstacles/freestyle as well as CC, EVEN THOUGH he made a mistake in the training, HE FIXED IT, in the subsequent training, between him & the horse, to go as cleanly as CC in the final test.

In fact, it's *REALLY* good training, when you make a mistake to the point that colt bucks you off, to fix that within time limit, to get horse as partnered up as the guy who didn't have such a big mistake to fix!

PLUS, who's to say that CC was as perfect as God in his training; that he didn't make one or more mistakes detectable only to him & the horse? 

So: Judge by the obstacle/freestyle, which has to include the happiness of the horse, naturally. Yet that requires that the judges can tell the difference between a horse who obeys because he's scared he's gonna get hurt if he doesn't, & a horse who's being a willing partner. ., there's another area requiring judges who can see what's going on with the horse.


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## Peggysue

kitten_Val said:


> Wow! That one is for rich people I guess. Paying that much for the clinic with non-professional in the discipline...
> 
> OT, but... Folks, how much (approximately) the living for those 3 days there cost (hotel, transportation, etc.)? And when you buy the ticket does it have assigned seat or not? (curious because based on comments I have a feeling people sat in different places each day)


Premium ticket this year was $150 with assigned seating 
My hotel was $175 for two nights 
My fuel from IL to TN about six hours was $200 

Oh I didn't want to see that number because that is not counting food or all the shirts I got LOL


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## Alwaysbehind

Northern, I think you are missing that the scoring was not just on an end result thing.

At least that is what someone already posted.

It was not who made the obstacle course look the best. It was who did everything the best based on all the days.


----------



## Peggysue

Northern said:


> *frank&beans*, I'm not saying that PP should have beat CC, because by all reports, CC was impeccable. Yet, I qualify that by saying that if PP was indeed as clean as CC in the obstacles/freestyle, then it should have been announced as what it WAS, which was a tie! Yet the rules don't allow for a tie, which, imo, is another flaw in the rules. There sure could be a tie & even a three-way tie & what's the *point* of not admitting it if it happens?
> 
> My point is: HOW can you judge whether a trainer did a good job *except by the result? Obviously, you cannot.*
> 
> *"Your result was great, but your training sucked!" is an oxymoron!*
> 
> Since Pat took the horse through the obstacles/freestyle as well as CC, EVEN THOUGH he made a mistake in the training, HE FIXED IT, in the subsequent training, between him & the horse, to go as cleanly as CC in the final test.
> 
> In fact, it's *REALLY* good training, when you make a mistake to the point that colt bucks you off, to fix that within time limit, to get horse as partnered up as the guy who didn't have such a big mistake to fix!
> 
> PLUS, who's to say that CC was as perfect as God in his training; that he didn't make one or more mistakes detectable only to him & the horse?
> 
> So: Judge by the obstacle/freestyle, which has to include the happiness of the horse, naturally. Yet that requires that the judges can tell the difference between a horse who obeys because he's scared he's gonna get hurt if he doesn't, & a horse who's being a willing partner. ., there's another area requiring judges who can see what's going on with the horse.


 
Nothern have you even LOOKED to see hwo these judges are ?? They are alot of the grandfathers of this style of training as well as judges and vets 

PP horse was no way close to as soft and willing as Chris's and chris had a very scared insecure horse where Pat had a curious more bold horse that wanted to "see" everything where Chris' horse wanted to get away and Clinton's was very very reactive. 

So you think we should go back to the end result is all that counts not what you do to get the horse there?? 

Clinton's freestyle wasn't all that impressive. He took the bridle off popped the whip and sat there while the horse ran, kinda like what we DID on broke horses as kids in the pasture. Yeah it LOOKED impressive until you seen him using his stock whip to the side of hte horse's head as a rein. 

I guess sine I have been to so many I notice more then somebody who hasn't been there as much.... like the fact that Pat's colt NEVER relaxed until the areana work it was stiff and nervous just not as reactive as the other two. If you look at most if not all the pics of it in round pen you will see it


----------



## franknbeans

Northern said:


> *frank&beans*, I'm not saying that PP should have beat CC, because by all reports, CC was impeccable. Yet, I qualify that by saying that if PP was indeed as clean as CC in the obstacles/freestyle, then it should have been announced as what it WAS, which was a tie! Yet the rules don't allow for a tie, which, imo, is another flaw in the rules. There sure could be a tie & even a three-way tie & what's the *point* of not admitting it if it happens? It is judged on more than just the obstacle course. That, in reality, is only 1/3 of the score. Each training session is also scored. Frankly, prior to the buck, I thought PP had won the first night. That buck (because of the training error that lead to it of not releasing the pressure and not reading the horse right, which PP admitted) may have been the true difference in the end in determining the winner.
> 
> My point is: HOW can you judge whether a trainer did a good job *except by the result? Obviously, you cannot. Actually, the method was also being judged, as well as the demeanor of the horse throughout.*
> 
> *"Your result was great, but your training sucked!" is an oxymoron!*
> 
> Since Pat took the horse through the obstacles/freestyle as well as CC, EVEN THOUGH he made a mistake in the training, HE FIXED IT, in the subsequent training, between him & the horse, to go as cleanly as CC in the final test.
> 
> In fact, it's *REALLY* good training, when you make a mistake to the point that colt bucks you off, to fix that within time limit, to get horse as partnered up as the guy who didn't have such a big mistake to fix!
> 
> PLUS, who's to say that CC was as perfect as God in his training; that he didn't make one or more mistakes detectable only to him & the horse?Did I say anyone was god or anyone didn't make mistakes?
> 
> So: Judge by the obstacle/freestyle, which has to include the happiness of the horse, naturally. Yet that requires that the judges can tell the difference between a horse who obeys because he's scared he's gonna get hurt if he doesn't, & a horse who's being a willing partner. ., there's another area requiring judges who can see what's going on with the horse.


As I think I explained above, it is not judged just by the obstacle/freestyle at all. And if you honestly watched CC's horse and thought he was not a willing partner you really missed something. Most likely what you missed is what won it for CC. If you want it judged on results alone, guess you will have to have your own competition.


----------



## Peggysue

The Judges being brought into question... Dr Miller was not present but did offer his insite from the hospital bed 
Road to the Horse -- The World Championship of Colt Starting! A Tootie Bland Production


----------



## franknbeans

Peggysue said:


> Nothern have you even LOOKED to see hwo these judges are ?? They are alot of the grandfathers of this style of training as well as judges and vets
> 
> PP horse was no way close to as soft and willing as Chris's and chris had a very scared insecure horse where Pat had a curious more bold horse that wanted to "see" everything where Chris' horse wanted to get away and Clinton's was very very reactive.
> 
> So you think we should go back to the end result is all that counts not what you do to get the horse there??
> 
> Clinton's freestyle wasn't all that impressive. He took the bridle off popped the whip and sat there while the horse ran, kinda like what we DID on broke horses as kids in the pasture. Yeah it LOOKED impressive until you seen him using his stock whip to the side of hte horse's head as a rein.
> 
> I guess sine I have been to so many I notice more then somebody who hasn't been there as much.... like the fact that Pat's colt NEVER relaxed until the areana work it was stiff and nervous just not as reactive as the other two. If you look at most if not all the pics of it in round pen you will see it


Chris' horse was very scared and insecure-until they connected, which really came out in the finals. The demeanor of the other 2 horses remained basically as it had been since the beginning, IMO.

Did you notice how unrelaxed PP's horse was when he had its head on his shoulder putting on the hugging show? Just curious if that was also your impression.


----------



## Peggysue

I never seen PP's horse relax I felt so sorry for it...it was so tense and just terrified but because he wasn't a reactor like Clinton's horse it was easy to miss I guess. He was so tense I bet he has sore muscles, we must just not be Savvy enough to understand Frank LOL 

Can a PP person who was there explain this to us PLEASE?? and I am being serious I go to learn and I didn't learn anything from PP except what to buy and where to see him next. So can somebody explain why no matter what the horse did his reaction was the same and why that horse never showed any signs of being relaxed??


----------



## Northern

If you don't understand my opinion, after I've clearly stated it, PeggySue, I can't help it. 

I'll say it again, this way: The result PROVES the training!

HOW CAN IT BE OTHERWISE?!

Frank&Beans, I only saw a photo of PP hugging horse, since you folks understand that I wasn't there. The horse looked to me to be enjoying the hug; eyes closed, relaxed mouth. Your calling it a "hugging show" shows bias, imo.


----------



## Peggysue

Nothern so you don't care if they beat the horse to get it there or tie it up to a post or whatever? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?? 

Who's the trainer that got in all the trouble a while back Clive something... he got results so ...


----------



## franknbeans

Northern said:


> If you don't understand my opinion, after I've clearly stated it, PeggySue, I can't help it. Peggy was asking a question about PP's techniques, I believe-not your opinion.
> 
> I'll say it again, this way: The result PROVES the training!Yes, which is why CC won.
> 
> HOW CAN IT BE OTHERWISE?! There are many well trained horses who were trained in ways many of us would cringe at, but they perform beautifully. They know they had better.
> 
> Frank&Beans, I only saw a photo of PP hugging horse, since you folks understand that I wasn't there. The horse looked to me to be enjoying the hug; eyes closed, relaxed mouth. Your calling it a "hugging show" shows bias, imo.


Actually, I was asking Peggy since she was there also, since you WEREN'T there, and it is apparent that you missed a lot. There is no way a webcast can cover everything. As I saw it-it was a "hugging show". He was hugging to make it look good, and the horse looked like he wanted to get away. That was what I saw.


----------



## Remudamom

I appreciate the fact that I'm a stranger to this board and none of you know me from Adam. 

I've used CA methods to start or re-train around 25 or so horses and it's worked well for us. I have heard people say he's too rough on them. 

I'm currently re-training a PP horse that is fearful and and spoiled. Using CA methods he's learning to trust me.

I think CC is really good. Glad he won.

CA should have used better manners.


----------



## kitten_Val

Peggysue said:


> Premium ticket this year was $150 with assigned seating
> My hotel was $175 for two nights
> My fuel from IL to TN about six hours was $200


Thanks! Actually that doesn't sound bad at all. I was thinking about something in $$$.


----------



## Peggysue

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...01775366938_78529421937_6714538_7286232_n.jpg 

look at this photo and tell me you see a RELAXED horse


----------



## Peggysue

maybe here he is relaxed and ready for a saddle 
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...01773391938_78529421937_6714481_7310205_n.jpg


----------



## TheLovedOne

Well I thought PP's horse was very relaxed - for a just started colt. He backed nicely and went through the obstacles well. I wouldn't take that from him but it was not perfect either. 

Both my husband and I thought that Chris looked really down at the end of round two. When he finished the obstacles he seemed thrilled but also a little surprised. Chris is good but I saw many times, because of all the rushing, it could have gone either way. It was not perfect. 

Clinton just continually terrorized and dominated.


----------



## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> Nothern so you don't care if they beat the horse to get it there or tie it up to a post or whatever? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose??


Now what are you talking about. Nobody is suggesting this. Northern is only saying that PPs horse completed round 3 successfully just as successful as CC. It was close.


----------



## Peggysue

But Loved she said all that matter is the result so they can do what they have to do to get the desired result


----------



## Peggysue

CC horse was much softer then PP's by far.


----------



## franknbeans

TheLovedOne said:


> Well I thought PP's horse was very relaxed - for a just started colt. He backed nicely and went through the obstacles well. I wouldn't take that from him but it was not perfect either.
> 
> Both my husband and I thought that Chris looked really down at the end of round two. When he finished the obstacles he seemed thrilled but also a little surprised. Chris is good but I saw many times, because of all the rushing, it could have gone either way. It was not perfect.
> 
> Clinton just continually terrorized and dominated.


Perhaps PP's horse was relaxed-especially at the end, when he used the ball. But what I saw was that CC's was MUCH more relaxed. It was so evident throughout the final performance, with softness, ending in the horse calmly head down, standing on the tarp waiting for Chris.


----------



## franknbeans

Peggysue said:


> CC horse was much softer then PP's by far.


lol we are posting and thinking the same things at the same time. Hard to explain to those not there.


----------



## Peggysue

it is hard to explain to those that weren't htere or who have never been, Chris' horse this year wasn't as good as previous horses either, he is just amazing


----------



## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> But Loved she said all that matter is the result so they can do what they have to do to get the desired result


Peggysue I'm sure that's not what she means. I know words sometimes can be misinterpreted but we should try to understand each other. Knowing Northern she would never mean that.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you: CC and PP (I love this CC PP now we need a DD or something ) 
both had good feel with their colts.

You know maybe I should do some colt start competitions. What do you think? Oh ya I'm a girl.


----------



## franknbeans

Northern said:


> If you don't understand my opinion, after I've clearly stated it, PeggySue, I can't help it.
> 
> I'll say it again, this way: The result PROVES the training!
> 
> HOW CAN IT BE OTHERWISE?!
> 
> Frank&Beans, I only saw a photo of PP hugging horse, since you folks understand that I wasn't there. The horse looked to me to be enjoying the hug; eyes closed, relaxed mouth. Your calling it a "hugging show" shows bias, imo.


TLO-I believe Peggy is referring to the above comment byt Northern, who has also made another reference that the regarding judging only the final phase, which to me means the Northern thinks the process shouldn't count-just the result.


----------



## TheLovedOne

I have been to other colt starts but not this one as I live on the west coast - the pacific northwest - BC Canada. I could see from the webcast and so could my husband the things that I have stated. I've started quite a few horses myself and know what it should look like - I'm not trying to be almighty here please don't take it that way.


----------



## TheLovedOne

At the end everyone emphasized how close it was. It must have meant CC & PP not CA as he didn't even complete the course.


----------



## TheLovedOne

franknbeans said:


> TLO-I believe Peggy is referring to the above comment byt Northern, who has also made another reference that the regarding judging only the final phase, which to me means the Northern thinks the process shouldn't count-just the result.


No Frank I don't think so. I can see that you could take it that way but what she means is that the results speak as to how successful the entire process was. In other words, if PP didn't succeed his colt would not have performed at the end as well as he did. Maybe you guys are disputing the fall - sorry I may have missed that - but maybe Northern thinks that should not have gone against him so much. I don't know I think this event would be better if the points were public right away at the end of each round. It would be more exciting and more clear. Dressage tests are always very detailed and posted pretty quickly... surely a colt start could be the same way. I also think that bull whips should be banned.

Is that what you mean Northern?


----------



## TheLovedOne

I think Northern has gone. I too am a little tired - my darned dog keeps waking me up. LOL


----------



## Peggysue

Why not Loved Stacy Westfall beat the boys  Oh course she came back and got beat by Chris... 
Loved where you there?? I have asked several times and you have yet to answer


----------



## equiniphile

Wow, what an interesting show. I've been waiting for this for a year! Wish I could have gone. I knew Parelli would get cocky from the start, but I did not expect CA to behave like he did. CC is new to me, I don't know a lot about his methods, but they seem to work!


----------



## Peggysue

Loved without being there you can't judge it... Chris' horse was just WOW when he walked out of the pen it stayed LOCKED onto him it didnt' wander or anything ... it lowered it's head and followed him wiht it's eyes while it drank and rested. Yes it got sweaty it was a nervous insecure horse alot like the one I ride.. that tends to sweat if the wind blows wrong and startles at the leaves.


----------



## franknbeans

Peggysue said:


> Loved without being there you can't judge it... Chris' horse was just WOW when he walked out of the pen it stayed LOCKED onto him it didnt' wander or anything ... it lowered it's head and followed him wiht it's eyes while it drank and rested. Yes it got sweaty it was a nervous insecure horse alot like the one I ride.. that tends to sweat if the wind blows wrong and startles at the leaves.


 EXACTLY! 

(well, except for the sweaty startling horse, that is.....:wink


----------



## Peggysue

LOL we have all had one at some point I am sure the one that is hyper alert no matter how much work you do


----------



## rocky pony

Interesting...came across this post by Clinton on Downunder Horsemanship's page. Why not blame the horse?



> First, Congratulations to Chris Cox - he won fair and square, it was a job well done. I don't have any problems getting beat on the day by a great horseman. Secondly, I want to thank all of my loyal supporters of the Method - it meant a lot to me and it was great to have so many of you there! I'm at the airport now, headed to VA to film another FOX show, so it is now back to business. I want to let you know that if I had to do it all again I wouldn't do anything different. I stayed true to the Method, and myself. Yes, I was disappointed that my horse did not do as well on the rail work and moving forward as I had hoped, but hey - that's horses for ya. Some days are good and some not so good. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all your support. Clinton


So disappointed in this man.


----------



## TheLovedOne

Sorry Peggysue I thought I did answer. No I was not there I watched the webcast. I understand that I would have missed some of the atmosphere but I know what I saw during the final round. Yes CC had a good thing happening but so did PP. I had never seen either CC or CA before. I agree CC is similar to John Lyons but also another guy I know Daryl Gibbs - extremely similar. CC did well he won. PP also did well but he lost. And well I guess you know what I think about CA. 

I could see that CC's connected but I could also see that Pat's colt did too. Period. 

Peggysue you've got a horse that sweats... that's not good.


----------



## sarahver

rocky pony said:


> Interesting...came across this post by Clinton on Downunder Horsemanship's page. Why not blame the horse?
> 
> 
> 
> So disappointed in this man.


That made me so angry to read. Oh,_ of course_, it was the horses fault, how silly of us to think that we were watching a professional trainer...

Bad sportsmanship all round. He should have at least mentioned PP also, like him or hate him it is good manners to acknowledge your competitors.


----------



## TheLovedOne

Oh ya rocky pony CA also referred to another horse he worked with as evil. What does that tell you.


----------



## Peggysue

TheLovedOne said:


> Sorry Peggysue I thought I did answer. No I was not there I watched the webcast. I understand that I would have missed some of the atmosphere but I know what I saw during the final round. Yes CC had a good thing happening but so did PP. I had never seen either CC or CA before. I agree CC is similar to John Lyons but also another guy I know Daryl Gibbs - extremely similar. CC did well he won. PP also did well but he lost. And well I guess you know what I think about CA.
> 
> I could see that CC's connected but I could also see that Pat's colt did too. Period.
> 
> Peggysue you've got a horse that sweats... that's not good.


 
She is all excitd to go then gets hyper alert "taking care of me" she is my rotten brat for sure... took her to CC tour stop and she did great! But she sweats within minutes of hitting the trail


----------



## TheLovedOne

OK I'm going to start a new thread. How to improve RTTH in future. Things like scoring, banned equipment, and how quickly judges have to post their individual scores openly to reduce the political element. 

What do you think?


----------



## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> She is all excitd to go then gets hyper alert "taking care of me" she is my rotten brat for sure... took her to CC tour stop and she did great! But she sweats within minutes of hitting the trail


Oh poor thing. When was a teenager I had a few horses to retrain that were like that. ... it saddens me since trail riding should be the best thing ever.


----------



## Peggysue

what political element??
what banned equipment??


----------



## Peggysue

TheLovedOne said:


> Oh poor thing. When was a teenager I had a few horses to retrain that were like that. ... it saddens me since trail riding should be the best thing ever.


OH she LOVES going first one at gate will load in trailer if doors are left open she is just hyper alert dang cow horse wants to chase rabbits and deer and toads and evrything that moves. She just needs my support which wears ME out sometimes


----------



## rocky pony

New RTTH Rule #1: Chris Cox can't compete because he'll just keep putting everybody else to shame ;-)
lol...


----------



## rocky pony

TheLovedOne said:


> Oh ya rocky pony CA also referred to another horse he worked with as evil. What does that tell you.


Shameful. Just shameful.

At least most everybody can agree on that!


----------



## Peggysue

rocky pony said:


> New RTTH Rule #1: Chris Cox can't compete because he'll just keep putting everybody else to shame ;-)
> lol...


 
Where's my like button?!?!


----------



## franknbeans

How to improve it, or just RTTH ideas might be good, but so few of us were there.....and I don't think Tooty asked us......Frankly, I would start with food availability, which sort of goes with hours, since if you stay, many things are packed or closed when you leave.....parking...perhaps run shuttles from the school/church across the street instead of people getting stuck in the mud? But DEFINITELY have more italian ice stations and less Tomas! lol


----------



## TheLovedOne

rocky pony said:


> New RTTH Rule #1: Chris Cox can't compete because he'll just keep putting everybody else to shame ;-)
> lol...


Too funny! No no I would like to see him come back.

Peggysue I was talking about starting another thread... those were only ideas....


----------



## Peggysue

NO MORE Bleacher seating ... because it is find a set those people thought they could take OUR seats!!!


----------



## TheLovedOne

franknbeans said:


> Frankly, I would start with food availability, which sort of goes with hours, since if you stay, many things are packed or closed when you leave.....parking...perhaps run shuttles from the school/church across the street instead of people getting stuck in the mud? But DEFINITELY have more italian ice stations and less Tomas! lol


Interesting and things I would not know. I'm sure Tooty would love to get some feedback since she is interested in making more money - right! Personally I thought the event sold out very fast so maybe it could be at a larger facility.


----------



## TheLovedOne

OK I'll start the thread.


----------



## franknbeans

Peggysue said:


> NO MORE Bleacher seating ... because it is find a set those people thought they could take OUR seats!!!


 Totally agreed. I think they had WAY too many bleachers, and some were behind poles even! How to pi$$ people off....101. Sell them tickets, have them pay $$ to come, stay, eat, and give them seats where you cannot see or hear. Sounds great to me!:wink:


----------



## TheLovedOne

That sounds like selling seats behind the stage so you can't see anything - great!


----------



## Peggysue

as long as it stays CLOSE to me I don't care where they have it LOL 

Loved they had it in Franklin one year and while the place was bigger that was the ony thing better about it

I love this place there really isn't a bad seat in the place and without the bleachers there was plenty of room for food stuff up top

I did like the vender tent just should have had food inside instead of out there and had all the trainer boothes inside


----------



## Northern

TheLovedOne said:


> I'm sure Tooty would love to get some feedback since she is interested in making more money - right! RIGHT, Sista! lol!QUOTE]
> 
> TLO, thanks for defending me when I was sick & tired of defending myself & had to take a break!
> 
> My concepts, like, "it could have been a tie" & "the proof of the training is in the results" are understandable to a 5-year old. So why the confusion over these points, PeggySue & Frank&beans? It reminds me of what Pat says: Adults confuse every issue/make simple things difficult.
> 
> My last explanation/analogy on this: CAN YOU SAY, "THIS CAKE IS DELICIOUS, BUT YOUR INGREDIENTS & METHOD OF BAKING IT SUCKED?"
> 
> Plus, you two went on & on claiming that I said that it didn't matter if you mistreated the horse, WHEN I *SAID *THAT PART OF THE RESULT TO BE JUDGED IS THE HORSE'S WILLINGNESS TO PARTNER WITH THE TRAINER, WHICH OBVIOUSLY IS ACHIEVED BY FRIENDLY TRAINING! UNFAIR MUCH?
> 
> 
> IT MAKES ANY FURTHER EFFORT ON MY PART TO DISCUSS ANYTHING WITH YOU MOST UNATTRACTIVE!


----------



## franknbeans

Northern said:


> TheLovedOne said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure Tooty would love to get some feedback since she is interested in making more money - right! RIGHT, Sista! lol!QUOTE]
> 
> TLO, thanks for defending me when I was sick & tired of defending myself & had to take a break!
> 
> My concepts, like, "it could have been a tie" & "the proof of the training is in the results" are understandable to a 5-year old. So why the confusion over these points, PeggySue & Frank&beans? Because it couldn't have been a tie. you just don;t seem to get that! Yes, the proof IS in the results,thus, the one who did the best jon in this situation with this horse WON! Please note: I SAID THIS HORSE and THIS SITUATION! I am NOT so closed minded as to think that ANY trainer would win any contest with every horse, which is the feeling I get so tired of from some of the Parelli-ites. Certainly not the ones I hang with (and went to this event with, BTW). It reminds me of what Pat says: Adults confuse every issue/make simple things difficult.Which could be why so many of his supporters act like children and seem to think he is the second coming.
> My last explanation/analogy on this: CAN YOU SAY, "THIS CAKE IS DELICIOUS, BUT YOUR INGREDIENTS & METHOD OF BAKING IT SUCKED?"
> 
> Plus, you two went on & on claiming that I said that it didn't matter if you beat the horse, WHEN I SAID THAT PART OF THE RESULT TO BE JUDGED IS THE HORSE'S WILLINGNESS TO PARTNER WITH THE TRAINER, WHICH OVBIOUSLY IS ACHIEVED BY FRIENDLY TRAINING! UNFAIR MUCH?
> 
> IT MAKES ANY FURTHER EFFORT ON MY PART TO DISCUSS ANYTHING WITH YOU MOST UNATTRACTIVE!
> 
> 
> 
> We have explained it to you ad nauseum. We (at least I, I will let Peggy speak for herself) am tired of what I perceive as a mind that is so closed to any other options it refuses to see them at all. Remember what they say-perception is reality.
> 
> Oh-thanks for posting yours in red-saved me from changing my font color ;-)
Click to expand...


----------



## Northern

YOU'VE explained! 

I don't even know to which "options" you refer!

I'm questioning your sanity at this point. Your arrogance is indisputable.


----------



## Peggysue

I have seen horse beaten still "look" happy in fact I own one that wasn't treated the best before I got him but to see him go you wouldn't believe it


----------



## Peggysue

Topical PP person Northern you are right we are wrong...his horse bucking had nothing to do with his training it was the crowds fault.

I honestly think if they hit the dirt they shoudl be disqualified


----------



## Northern

Hel-LO! Your analogy is erroneous!

Your horse wasn't beaten by YOU, so he was happy with you!

at RTTH, if a colt was beaten by the trainer, the colt'd NOT be a willing partner in the obstacle/freestyle!

I really don't care to continue to dignify your nonsense any further by answering to it.


----------



## Peggysue

LOL think what you want when you are dealing with good minded more forgiving horses you will be amazed at what they will put up with


----------



## Peggysue

I met the horse I have when his "trainer"" was riding him and he is the sweetest most willing horse ... in fact he reminds me alot of that horse that Pat had...just nice quiet curious horse that will tolerate about anything...

Have you EVER been to RTTH??


----------



## franknbeans

Wow-just wow. 

Peggysue-it is useless.....as well as sad. Northern knows it all. (in her world)


----------



## nrhareiner

All I will say is Clive Wells.


----------



## Northern

NOT! Even in my world, NHRAreiner knows it ALL!


----------



## franknbeans

Not familiar with him at all.....I did google, and found his site, but have no real idea what his philosophy/approach is. You did mean Cleve Wells?


----------



## Peggysue

Road To The Horse 2011 Live Updates – Day 2 | JediHorsemanship

interesting reading ...


----------



## nrhareiner

Clive Wells is one of the best western pleasure trainers in the world. He has trained horses like Zips Chocolate Chip, Radical Rodder, Chips Hot Chocolate and many many more. In short he wins. His horses look happy and content.

He is also one of the most abusive trainers out there.


----------



## Tymer

On the whole "training process thing." See: MY TRAINER.

She is a god awful trainer. If you look at the thread I posted a week ago or so you'll see that. She is horrific. Yet, she has a horse she trained almost exclusively herself who is a wonder....If you have a strong leg and you use your crop if she's being a pain. But still, that horse will jump anything you throw in front of her. She's so good that she doesn't even take crossrails seriously.

Anyway. This whole thing was an interesting read.

Edit: Looks like Clive Wells agrees with the point too.


----------



## franknbeans

nrhareiner said:


> Clive Wells is one of the best western pleasure trainers in the world. He has trained horses like Zips Chocolate Chip, Radical Rodder, Chips Hot Chocolate and many many more. In short he wins. His horses look happy and content.
> 
> He is also one of the most abusive trainers out there.


That was the idea I got-noticed the tie downs he sells....which made me wonder. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## TheLovedOne

You guys I go away and come back to this. Please nobody is saying they know it all or anything like that. Sometimes people get frustrated when they feel they are not being understood or words are being put in their mouth. Surely you can understand that. OK now I'm leaving and may come back tomorrow. 

Sleep well.


----------



## franknbeans

Thanks Peggysue-I got "stuck" reading for a while. Read day 2 and 3. Pretty accurate redition of what happened.....as much as anyone can type and watch.....
Only thing that struck me was that he said that Rick Lamb asked for PP's mike to be turned off and the crowd protested....I don't know about you, but everyone around me was cheering for them to DO it, not to NOT do it.....UGH. Sounds like they misunderstood that one. People were even posting on Stacys FB page-where we were told to post questions...begging them to please shut off his mike!


----------



## Peggysue

I need to go and read her page LOL and see if they left those comments on there...

Nobody that mattered said anything about leaving his mike ON we all wanted it off to stop his commercial

I thought it was great and have been reading it as well LOL


----------



## franknbeans

I appreciated it, since one friend couldn;t be there and a blow by blow is impossible.....sure saves me some time!


----------



## Peggysue

they asked on SAt for Clinton's mike to be shut off becauseof his heavy breathing and there was alot of talk about Pat's mike on Stacy's FB page and his disciples saying the other clincians could talk if they wanted too... hmmm have to get Pat to shut up first and Chris' mike was broke and Clinton was not being social at all

**** she kept saying the "show" controls that but when PP took his break they turned his off


----------



## franknbeans

I really don't think they need to be on when they are training. Talking with them in breaks is fine. How have they done it other years?

I know, CA's breathing was annoying, in fact, some think he was not feeling 100% because he was so out of breath and sweaty....my only thought is, if they have to be on, that is fine, but Clinton has to breathe-PP does not HAVE to talk-continuously. Plus, frankly, the PP people with me felt he was embarrassing himself by doing so. Even they wanted his mike shut off. Just created animosity. He even talked over Rick Lamb at times. I really think he has been talking when he is with horses for so many years it is second nature to do a play by play, which is why they need it off. I talk to my horse too, which not everyone wants/needs to hear!


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## Peggysue

they normally tralk to them while they are training off and on depending on what is happening Rick has good timing for it and knows which ones are willing to talk and when. 

Clinton was a smoker prob still is I am not sure... we were at same hotel as him the year it was in Franklin and his "crew" and RTTH "Crew " had the whole smoking floor


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## MacabreMikolaj

I have to be perfectly honest, these "competitions" borderline disgust me. The idea that you could even POSSIBLY slap the word "natural" on it is like an oxymoron.

What are they trying to prove? Who can get the farthest with the most terrified colt? In what world do you NEED a colt doing all these things within a couple days? In what world do you need a SCREAMING audience scaring the bejeebers out of these colts?

To me, these arrogant displays go against absolutely everything that natural horsemanship is supposed to stand for. It's like a race and the only loser is the HORSE. I would never in a million YEARS buy a colt that was used for this purpose instead of started calm, slow and deliberately.

I fail to understand the point ENTIRELY, aside from making money. Nobody needs to know this. Nobody needs to go home and start demanding things from a terrified wild animal in 48 hours. I honestly do not see how this is ANY different then a wild horse race at a rodeo - BOTH animals come into that ring the EXACT same way - terrified, disorientated and confused as hell. In Pat's case, it may as well have been a wild horse race.

I understand the ability to learn some useful information, but I just CANNOT support this as a logical and sensible way to train an animal. I thought the ENTIRE point of NH was to get away from the old ranch ways? This really is not much better.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Wow dude. Just wow. Totally makes sense. This is TOTALLY better then how they "used" to do it. :roll:


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## nrhareiner

The only horse that was not bucking was Stacys. Wonder if he ever did?


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## rocky pony

That's an interesting perspective, MM.
At least Chris's horse didn't look terrified at all once he had been worked with. I guess I can see where in a lot of cases it could be seen as a bad thing. I don't personally see it that way, though.

While I don't really see it as a very natural thing, it just seems like another form of competition to me. I don't see it being anything unusually cruel unless it is done by people who are inexperienced or harsh. Hopefully people watching have enough sense to know that this is not an everyday way to start horses and most of the competitors who buy the horses they worked with go over everything again slowly and carefully before moving on with them. Sort of like watching a barrel racer perform but knowing that you and ol' Trigger out in the backyard aren't going to be able to fly around the barrels with proper speed and control. Maybe that's not the best comparison but it's just the point that this is just another type of competition. In a way all types of competition can be seen as a way of showing off. I guess that's what they really are in the end.


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## MacabreMikolaj

That's very true rocky pony, it just really irks me. I think what irks me MOST is what these trainers represent and what they're doing - they've spent their LIVES telling everyone that force and fear is wrong, and yet they cater to it with these silly competitions. I swear I'd be LESS irked if it was other kinds of trainers. But just that Parelli has preached NOT needing a helmet because they adopt methods where a horse should NEVER be acting up is so hypocritical in this sense it's astounding.

Definitely Chris Cox did a great job, definitely a LOT of trainers do a great job, I just personally find it silly and senseless. You're setting this colt up for the rest of his life and I'd be REALLY curious where these colts end up. It just seems like an unnecessary overload of stimulation on such a young and fresh mind.

I'm not a trainer, I probably shouldn't judge, I think it's just the principal behind it that ticks me off so bad. This is NOT for the horse WHATSOEVER, it's for human catering plain and simple. I guess all equestrian though isn't it? *sighs*

EDIT - in defense, I do get JUST as infuriated with people competing on animals not trained for it and clearly upset, scared or in pain. I know the horse doesn't live to compete, but we can make it as comfortable for them as possible. This just seems like a totally unecessary display based on the fact that nobody is impressed what you can train a horse to do in 6 months, they want to oooo and aaahhhhh over it NOW. It reminds me of Hidalgo and how they had to make him WIN in the movie because non-horse people would NEVER understand the amazing significance of the fact that he only FINISHED the race. It's just so commercial.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I just wanted to note, because I've gotten quite ranty, that I have no issues with anyone who DOES enjoy this or finds it very insightful. It's just me being a little self righteous and indignant on the behalf of the horse after being raised to start horses SO quiet and calmly. Sorry if I rained on anyones parade!


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## rocky pony

About most equestrian sports catering more to the human than horse, I tend to think so, for the most part.
I can definitely see where your concern is. Most of the time the trainers do seem to go way against what they normally practice and teach, but I do like that most of them openly admit that it is just for competition and they do recommend going back over everything again because of the fact that this is not a true start. It is definitely only done to show what the trainer can do in that amount of time and definitely much more for the people than for the horses. I like to think that the good trainers do also keep the horse's well-being and proper turnout in mind the entire time, though, and do not push them too far too fast...emphasis on the _good_ ones. It does seem that a lot probably don't, though I haven't followed this type of competition very closely until this year.

That's why, I go back again to Chris Cox, I feel like he and similar trainers are good at being as quick as possible with getting the horse into a more comfortable mindframe ASAP and _then_ working on progressing with the training. When it's done that way, I personally see no harm or fowl so long as it is accepted that it is not a true proper start and purely done for competition.


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## MacabreMikolaj

rocky pony said:


> That's why, I go back again to Chris Cox, I feel like he and similar trainers are good at being as quick as possible with getting the horse into a more comfortable mindframe ASAP and _then_ working on progressing with the training. When it's done that way, I personally see no harm or fowl so long as it is accepted that it is not a true proper start and purely done for competition.


Yeah, I went back and watched a bit and really liked how his horse looked. Definitely I think they're probably working pretty fast to calm down most of the horses, just episodes like Parelli's have me clucking my tongue a bit because you know he would have NEVER done that at home. 

I could, for the most part, see the benefit in people seeing that and seeing how to start a colt properly. It's difficult to have such a massive event and have it span several weeks, so I can understand the time crunch. They're doing a darn good job with what they've got, I'll give them that!


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## rocky pony

Definitely agreed with that! 

Note: I just looked back and realized I said fowl rather than foul....oops  lol though I don't see any birds either....


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## mom2pride

Peggysue said:


> Frank did you find it comical that his horse bucked him off after his comments about "young men's disease" and not mounting until he was SURE the horse was ready?
> 
> Did I miss him preparing that horse to be mounted and teaching it to give to pressure? I am not being mean here I was just so confused by him and am really trying to figure out what he was doing..google is not helping everybody I am finding talking about it feels the same way


No you didn't miss anything...the most of what he did was rub the horse all over, and the next moment he was trying to stand on him...then he did some type of round penning, and then saddled, the next thing I saw was him getting landed in the dirt!


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## mom2pride

Northern said:


> *frank&beans*, I'm not saying that PP should have beat CC, because by all reports, CC was impeccable. Yet, I qualify that by saying that if PP was indeed as clean as CC in the obstacles/freestyle, then it should have been announced as what it WAS, which was a tie! Yet the rules don't allow for a tie, which, imo, is another flaw in the rules. There sure could be a tie & even a three-way tie & what's the *point* of not admitting it if it happens?
> 
> My point is: HOW can you judge whether a trainer did a good job *except by the result? Obviously, you cannot.*
> 
> *"Your result was great, but your training sucked!" is an oxymoron!*
> 
> Since Pat took the horse through the obstacles/freestyle as well as CC, EVEN THOUGH he made a mistake in the training, HE FIXED IT, in the subsequent training, between him & the horse, to go as cleanly as CC in the final test.
> 
> In fact, it's *REALLY* good training, when you make a mistake to the point that colt bucks you off, to fix that within time limit, to get horse as partnered up as the guy who didn't have such a big mistake to fix!
> 
> PLUS, who's to say that CC was as perfect as God in his training; that he didn't make one or more mistakes detectable only to him & the horse?
> 
> So: Judge by the obstacle/freestyle, which has to include the happiness of the horse, naturally. Yet that requires that the judges can tell the difference between a horse who obeys because he's scared he's gonna get hurt if he doesn't, & a horse who's being a willing partner. ., there's another area requiring judges who can see what's going on with the horse.


However RTTH is NOT just based on the "end product" results...the trainers are scored on each round of training PLUS the rail and obstacle courses...so really, unless each trainer was impeccable, or flawed in exactly the same amount of points, there never really could be a tie...I think it really isn't a "flaw" in the rules the way they have it set. Just because the 'end result' turns out okay, doesn't mean the trainer was perfect in getting there; PP for example had a lot of 'safety' issues (atleast IMO) when he mounted for the first time with all that stuff in his pen, and CA did not rest his horse as often as I would have wanted to see (if I was a judge), and I do agree, I saw instances where he could have stopped and given the horse even a minute or two to sit. Those are just examples. But I understand why they have the judging set the way they do...and it does make sense. If they were "just" going to judge on the end result, there would be no sense in having the entire thing public...just give the trainers the three days to train and come out and then judge. But it's not, and they are judged on every aspect.


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## Northern

That's the joy of these public forums: we each get to express our opinion. 

Another thing that bothered me is that the rules as they now stand allowed for CA to not water his horse sufficiently. I find it reprehensible that all stood around & did nothing while the horse needed water, & CA wasn't "getting the job done".


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## Northern

mom2pride said:


> If they were just going to judge on the end result, there would be no sense in having the entire thing public...just give the trainers the three days to train and come out and then judge.


I can only speak for myself, but I would still be interested in seeing the entire process. As long as I didn't have to watch a thirsty horse go without water, or some other neglect/abuse. :-(

PP & CC _both_ had clean final tests & good freestyles. Yet, PP lost to CC because his training wasn't as good? PP watered & rested his horse, so there wasn't neglect/abuse to mark him down for. 

The only comments I've read from the judges are along the lines of, "It was a very tough call", "It was a very close competition". Has anyone gotten any specifics for their choosing CC?


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## thebundychick

Clintons Nice relaxed horse: this is the first time he's had a bit in his mouth. And he wonders why he lost.





























I don't beleive i need to be tehre in person, to read the horse. A live telecase is perfectly able to point out the bleeding obvious.

Don't get me wrong - I'm a long time Parelli Student - but I'm so happy for Chris - Iv'e found a new horseman to follow up on.

One thing I will say. - When Pat walked into the coral on the first day to pick a horse, he turned his back and walked away, and ALL the horses turned and followed.

Clinton walked in, flapped his hands in the air like a kreton, and all the horses ran for their lives - he picked the one that ran the fastest.

On the second day - Pats horse MET HIM AT THE GATE. 
Clintons horse ran away from him.

Pat updated all those follwoing him on ParelliConnect thsi morning, that Pardner met him at the gate again today, and stuck his head in the rope halter.

Yeah - that there colt sure is terrified.

PeggySue - you may not understand the Parelli method, but thats no reason to get on the forum and bag it out. You didn't understand what you were seeing, but lots of us did. 

Yes, Pat made a mistake, he acknowledged his error in judgement, went back and fixed it. ALL the reports I read, from CA fans and CC fans alike said that Pats colt was very soft in the eye, and did the obstacle course like a true champion.

I've just read on CA's blog - he blamed the horse for not winning.


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## Alwaysbehind

rocky pony said:


> Interesting...came across this post by Clinton on Downunder Horsemanship's page. Why not blame the horse?
> 
> So disappointed in this man.


I do not read that post that way.
He is not blaming the horse. He is simply stating that the horse did not do as well as he hoped.




Northern said:


> My last explanation/analogy on this: CAN YOU SAY, "THIS CAKE IS DELICIOUS, BUT YOUR INGREDIENTS & METHOD OF BAKING IT SUCKED?"


So, if I can make a cake that contains bad things but still tastes good all that matters is you like the way it tastes in the end? The method of putting a poison or rat droppings in it does not matter?

I think the trainer mentioned (Clive, right?) is a great example of how the method does matter. And that is why this event is judged on all the days.


PS - I do not follow any of the noted NH trainers.


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## franknbeans

thebundychick said:


> Clintons Nice relaxed horse: this is the first time he's had a bit in his mouth. And he wonders why he lost.
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> I don't beleive i need to be tehre in person, to read the horse. A live telecase is perfectly able to point out the bleeding obvious.If you had been there you would have clearly seen that ALL of those horses had their moments like this. They ALL resisited at times. What do you think caused PP to hit the dirt? Great connection and softness? He was resisted flexing to the right. PP said so himself. Chris horse also had its moments. And some of them were in the final, just as this one was. I would agree that Clintons was the MOST resistant of the 3 in the final.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I'm a long time Parelli Student - but I'm so happy for Chris - Iv'e found a new horseman to follow up on.
> 
> One thing I will say. - When Pat walked into the coral on the first day to pick a horse, he turned his back and walked away, and ALL the horses turned and followed. Yeah, and that was impressive.
> 
> Clinton walked in, flapped his hands in the air like a kreton, and all the horses ran for their lives - he picked the one that ran the fastest.We all have different methods. Doesn't make him wrong necessarily.
> 
> On the second day - Pats horse MET HIM AT THE GATE.
> Clintons horse ran away from him.
> 
> Pat updated all those follwoing him on ParelliConnect thsi morning, that Pardner met him at the gate again today, and stuck his head in the rope halter.I am happy that he is home safe and can settle in.
> 
> Yeah - that there colt sure is terrified. Noone said he was terrified.
> 
> PeggySue - you may not understand the Parelli method, but thats no reason to get on the forum and bag it out. You didn't understand what you were seeing, but lots of us did. Who said she doesn't understand? YOU? Who makes you the PP authority? Yes, you have studied him, many of us have, to different degrees. Just because we don't necessarily buy in to all if his techniques does NOT mean we don;t understand them. Has it occurred to you that we understand and choose NOT to follow to the same degree you do? We choose to also look at other possibilities? Perhaps the fact that you will now follow CC will open your mind a bit and give you more tools to use other than stictly PP's techniques.
> 
> Yes, Pat made a mistake, he acknowledged his error in judgement, went back and fixed it. ALL the reports I read, from CA fans and CC fans alike said that Pats colt was very soft in the eye, and did the obstacle course like a true champion.Perhaps those were the reports on PP's sites? Yes, he was soft, yes he did it well, but as those of us who were there have said again and again-CC's horse was much softer in the end, and much more of the time during the process.
> 
> I've just read on CA's blog - he blamed the horse for not winning.That was not how I read it. He just said he didn;t think the horse performed as well as he would have liked. Period. Did not place blame at all, but that is my opinion.[/QUOTE]
> 
> I am really anxious to get out to the barn today and see what all the PP folks there are saying, and what their perspective was. The BO/instructor is PP certified, and we have an intern who will be going to the ranch shortly to do a level 4 test. I think the fact that I board at a PP barn and take lessons from a PP trainer speaks volumes that I am open to the possibilities. I will say that it has been a great help with my horse who is a LBI and can be very difficult. The PP knowledge of my trainer has helped me know how to better deal with him. Yet my other instructor I use in the summer is a CC instructor. I love all the different approaches I get.


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## franknbeans

Alwaysbehind said:


> I do not read that post that way.
> He is not blaming the horse. He is simply stating that the horse did not do as well as he hoped.exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> So, if I can make a cake that contains bad things but still tastes good all that matters is you like the way it tastes in the end? The method of putting a poison or rat droppings in it does not matter?
> 
> I think the trainer mentioned (Clive, right?) is a great example of how the method does matter. And that is why this event is judged on all the days.
> 
> 
> PS - I do not follow any of the noted NH trainers.


Nor do I really. I just love to learn different approaches. There are so many possibilities. I think to get "stuck" on a narrow path following any ONE person is a mistake. JMHO.


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## rocky pony

franknbeans said:


> Nor do I really. I just love to learn different approaches. There are so many possibilities. I think to get "stuck" on a narrow path following any ONE person is a mistake. JMHO.


(Apologizing in advance for any odd communication or wording in this post as I am extremely tired, lol)
This is so true. There was a demo I watched at an expo one time...I believe it was Richard Winters...how there is something to learn from every single trainer out there who is at least somewhat successful...that even if their methods are generally corrupt there will always be something good you will be able to pick up from them. I thought that was a very interesting concept and ever since have worked to find at least one good and useful thing from every trainer, instructor, or clinician that I can, even if I generally disagree with most of their methods. So far I have not come across one trainer I have tried to do this with who I could not get something useful out of.
In the end, of course, the best "trainers" I ever come across have been the four-legged, hooved kind, though. :wink:

But I do have to say CC has still got to be a favourite, even while I definitely do not follow him exclusively at all. Sometimes I think he is a horse born into a human's body :lol:


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## Peggysue

nrha reiner said:


> The only horse that was not bucking was Stacy's. Wonder if he ever did?


I will have to watch my DVD again but I think they all bucked that year.. BTW Stacy's Colonel horse is from that year
In 2008 Clinton's horse tried to attack him in the 2nd round pen session he shut that poor colt down I honestly don't know WHY they keep letting him come back so what if he though he had a title to defend he has turned into an idiot



Macabre Mikolaj said:


> I just wanted to note, because I've gotten quite ranty, that I have no issues with anyone who DOES enjoy this or finds it very insightful. It's just me being a little self righteous and indignant on the behalf of the horse after being raised to start horses SO quiet and calmly. Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade!


 The horse was offered water when he went out the first day and it NEVER drank... the first break he took he spent off that break on the wall talking to his mother so he was no where NEAR the horse I don't know about the second day because I was trying to figure out PP that day



mom2pride said:


> No you didn't miss anything...the most of what he did was rub the horse all over, and the next moment he was trying to stand on him...then he did some type of round penning, and then saddled, the next thing I saw was him getting landed in the dirt!


OK his pen was on far side of arena from me on day one so I couldn't really see everything he did, I know on day 2 he didn't do much besides the barrel stunt and the balloons. 



Northern said:


> That's the joy of these public forums: we each get to express our opinion.
> 
> Another thing that bothered me is that the rules as they now stand allowed for CA to not water his horse sufficiently. I find it reprehensible that all stood around & did nothing while the horse needed water, & CA wasn't "getting the job done".


THat horse never showed signs of being too tired he had more fight then is right 



thebundychick said:


> Clinton's Nice relaxed horse: this is the first time he's had a bit in his mouth. And he wonders why he lost.
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> I don't believe i need to be there in person, to read the horse. A live telecast is perfectly able to point out the bleeding obvious.
> 
> Don't get me wrong - I'm a long time Parelli Student - but I'm so happy for Chris - Iv'e found a new horseman to follow up on.
> 
> Chris really is an amazing HORSEMEN that gets the job done softly with min of stress to both rider and horse. He wants you to RIDE your horse not play with it he wants you to enjoy it
> 
> One thing I will say. - When Pat walked into the coral on the first day to pick a horse, he turned his back and walked away, and ALL the horses turned and followed.
> 
> I agree here as well. Whatever he has you can't learn or buy its just the man himself.
> 
> Clinton walked in, flapped his hands in the air like a kreton, and all the horses ran for their lives - he picked the one that ran the fastest.
> 
> On the second day - Pats horse MET HIM AT THE GATE.
> Pat's horse met him at gate on round one as well that's the breeding not the man LOL they kept repeating those Paddy horses LOVE people and how quiet they are and curious
> 
> Clintons horse ran away from him.
> Wouldn't you?
> 
> Pat updated all those follwoing him on ParelliConnect this morning, that Pardner met him at the gate again today, and stuck his head in the rope halter.
> 
> Yeah - that there colt sure is terrified.
> 
> Peggy Sue - you may not understand the Parelli method, but that's no reason to get on the forum and bag it out. You didn't understand what you were seeing, but lots of us did.
> 
> The point of these things is to LEARN I didn't LEARN a thing from him there was no method to his madness. I have asked several times for one of you "Savvy" people to explain why he would ask the horse to do one thing and when it did opposite he rewarded it and nobody has or can
> Yes, Pat made a mistake, he acknowledged his error in judgement, went back and fixed it. ALL the reports I read, from CA fans and CC fans alike said that Pats colt was very soft in the eye, and did the obstacle course like a true champion.
> What made that so comical to me was his mouth wrote a check his a** couldn't' cash PERIOD he ran his mouth and Partner showed him the floor
> I've just read on CA's blog - he blamed the horse for not winning.


Doesn't surprise me CA is like a spoiled child throwing a fit when he doesn't get his way


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## Cobalt

Forgive me for not weeding back through these posts to find the exact reference, but someone earlier said that Parelli offered free level 1 and 2 but that they ended up costing $150. 

That isn't true at all. I went to Pat's booth and got my free level 1 and 2. It won't cost me a dime. I had to sign up for a free 30 day trial to his new online forum, but I can cancel anytime within 30 days and won't be charged a penny. If I choose to stay, I can join at various price points (as little as $50 per year). I will check it out but I'm certain I will cancel. I get to keep level 1 and 2 regardless. So he DID give this away for free. I wanted to clear that up. People were freaking out about him lying about that, but he didn't lie. It is free or I wouldn't have them. 

I say this as a non-Parelli follower. As I said before, I had to give the man a lot more of my respect than I intended after the weekend. I went in having a very negative impression. I still think he talks too much and has an ego to rival CA's, but I was impressed with the work he did with that horse. Of the 3, he spent the least time running that horse around. Everyone can say it was breeding that made that horse friendly towards Pat, but I think if CA had chosen that horse, the horse wouldn't have met Clinton at the gate on day 2.


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## Peggysue

Cobalt said:


> Forgive me for not weeding back through these posts to find the exact reference, but someone earlier said that Parelli offered free level 1 and 2 but that they ended up costing $150.
> 
> That isn't true at all. I went to Pat's booth and got my free level 1 and 2. It won't cost me a dime. I had to sign up for a free 30 day trial to his new online forum, but I can cancel anytime within 30 days and won't be charged a penny. If I choose to stay, I can join at various price points (as little as $50 per year). I will check it out but I'm certain I will cancel. I get to keep level 1 and 2 regardless. So he DID give this away for free. I wanted to clear that up. People were freaking out about him lying about that, but he didn't lie. It is free or I wouldn't have them.
> 
> I say this as a non-Parelli follower. As I said before, I had to give the man a lot more of my respect than I intended after the weekend. I went in having a very negative impression. I still think he talks too much and has an ego to rival CA's, but I was impressed with the work he did with that horse. Of the 3, he spent the least time running that horse around. Everyone can say it was breeding that made that horse friendly towards Pat, but I think if CA had chosen that horse, the horse wouldn't have met Clinton at the gate on day 2.


 
K I have to people horses like that one and they don't care they are just super curious and actually silly about sticking their noses on everything. My MOosa has to stop and smell flowers when you are riding him.

Pat did have "something" about him that the horses seem to like.. I would like to see PP work with either of the other two horses.

CObalt Pat's offer reminds me of the telemarketing offers you get on Credit cards and stuff... it's just 99 cents for the first month then 9.99 each month after and you can cancel at anytime in the first 30 days blah blah blah


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## TheLovedOne

franknbeans said:


> Clinton walked in, flapped his hands in the air like a kreton, and all the horses ran for their lives - he picked the one that ran the fastest.We all have different methods. Doesn't make him wrong necessarily.


Yeah but it was a little nasty to scare them like that since they were already pretty scared to say the least.




franknbeans said:


> PeggySue - you may not understand the Parelli method, but thats no reason to get on the forum and bag it out. You didn't understand what you were seeing, but lots of us did. Who said she doesn't understand? YOU? Who makes you the PP authority? Yes, you have studied him, many of us have, to different degrees. Just because we don't necessarily buy in to all if his techniques does NOT mean we don;t understand them. Has it occurred to you that we understand and choose NOT to follow to the same degree you do? We choose to also look at other possibilities? Perhaps the fact that you will now follow CC will open your mind a bit and give you more tools to use other than stictly PP's techniques.


Actually she admitted that she didn't understand it and quite frankly I doubt that I would have understood it not having purchased his DVDs. But before you get all mad, it is something that happens a lot towards PP 'cause the program is a little different but when you learn it you realize it is not that different. Chris' style is very different but his principles are not.


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## TheLovedOne

I totally understand your frustration towards PP regarding his marketing strategies and actually the way they don't give any info until you anti up. I get that - it bothered me too and because of that I didn't buy anything from him for years. I can be stubborn


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## TheLovedOne

Cobalt said:


> Forgive me for not weeding back through these posts to find the exact reference, but someone earlier said that Parelli offered free level 1 and 2 but that they ended up costing $150.
> 
> That isn't true at all.


Thanks for clearing that up. We were already thinking wow that is not good!


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## TheLovedOne

mom2pride said:


> Just because the 'end result' turns out okay, doesn't mean the trainer was perfect in getting there


The judging should happen each day and the results posted from each judge so that everyone can see what happened and why. That would be more fair and transparent - didn't this happen in figure skating. But seriously after just a few hours of handling if the results in the obstacle course were good the process must have been successful - how could it be any other way.


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## Northern

Alwaysbehind said:


> So, if I can make a cake that contains bad things but still tastes good all that matters is you like the way it tastes in the end? The method of putting a poison or rat droppings in it does not matter?.


 Sheesh! You botch up the analogy *by adding **poison that is tasteless*! I give up! The point was: You canNOT say that your producing a willing partner in your horse training could have been done by bad training! Now y'all leave me alone with it; I TRIED!

[QUOTE=Cobalt;945760]Forgive me for not weeding back through these posts to find the exact reference, but someone earlier said that Parelli offered free level 1 and 2 but that they ended up costing $150. 

That isn't true at all. I went to Pat's booth and got my free level 1 and 2. It won't cost me a dime. I had to sign up for a free 30 day trial to his new online forum, but I can cancel anytime within 30 days and won't be charged a penny. If I choose to stay, I can join at various price points (as little as $50 per year). I will check it out but I'm certain I will cancel. I get to keep level 1 and 2 regardless. So he DID give this away for free. I wanted to clear that up. People were freaking out about him lying about that, but he didn't lie. It is free or I wouldn't have them. Cobalt, thank you so much for the FACTS! This false accusation was bothering me! It's a bit of a bother to cancel after a month, sure, you'd rather just get your freebies, but it's worth the 5 minutes you spend cancelling! Do the math, that's $150-199 whatever for 5 minutes of your time! I had to join Savvy Club in order to access SC online, with TONS of videos, ALL SC dvd's ever made, articles, etc., & pay $23.99 for the first month, with option to cancel at month's end. It was totally worth the 5 minutes I spent cancelling!

Everyone can say it was breeding that made that horse friendly towards Pat, but I think if CA had chosen that horse, the horse wouldn't have met Clinton at the gate on day 2. Correction: you KNOW it, & so does everyone else! [/QUOTE]


----------



## Peggysue

posting the results would take the suspense out of it and I am sure CA would be having more of a fit then he already is/does. 

I do think it would be nice to see the judges score sheets at the end of it all just to see the comments and thoughts they noted and see how close I was, there were things on each one I noticed both good and bad 

CA I am sure got docked for the "use of breaks" and "stress level" of the horse

PP I am got docked for there being no clear release and application of pressure and getting unseated (he did not bail off) 

CC didn't let his horse rest at times as long as I felt he should have but I understand why so kinda grey area this man just excels at reading and working a horse. He finds a good spot and let's the horse soak but when the horse becomes distracted he goes back in.


----------



## Peggysue

Northern said:


> Cobalt, thank you so much for the FACTS! This false accusation was bothering me! It's a bit of a bother to cancel after a month, sure, you'd rather just get your freebies, but it's worth the 5 minutes you spend cancelling! Do the math, that's $150-199 whatever for 5 minutes of your time! I had to join Savvy Club in order to access SC online, with TONS of videos, ALL SC dvd's ever made, articles, etc., & pay $23.99 for the first month, with option to cancel at month's end. It was totally worth the 5 minutes I spent cancelling!


[/QUOTE]

but the line to get this "free" stuff was on average prob an hour long and why should I have to CANCEL anything 

FREE IS FREE NO STRINGS attached


how is AB's analogy wrong... if the cake taste good who cares what she put in it?? So if I tie my horse's head in the air for three hours to wear him down then ride him and he is sighing with relief at having his head back and has his ears relaxed as I ride oh well


----------



## Northern

but the line to get this "free" stuff was on average prob an hour long and why should I have to CANCEL anything An HOUR? Well, of course, that makes it a tougher call. Yet, you were "paid" $150-199 for an hour + 5 minutes cancel time. Btw, you can pop over to CC's site, where he sells a pair of sunglasses for $49.99, & so on!

FREE IS FREE NO STRINGS attached TRUE, I'd prefer it if it was totally up front, but then I figure if the deal is worth it, & feel good about the vendor if it was!

how is AB's analogy wrong... if the cake taste good who cares what she put in it?? ARE YOU PLAYIN' ME, HERE? So if I tie my horse's head in the air for three hours to wear him down then ride him and he is sighing with relief at having his head back and has his ears relaxed as I ride *oh well* PEGGYSUE, I'LL OH WELL YOU![/QUOTE]


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## Peggysue

Nothern you said who's cares how they got there it shouldn't be judged which means anything goes right??

I would like to see Stacy Westfall, Sarah Winters and Linda Parelli (although I have never seen her do anything I liked)


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## Peggysue

and you can go to PP shop and get a snap for $14 when the lead I got for $12 has the same snap it's a nice LONG 12' lead as well with a good "feel" to it


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## Peggysue

Hey Nothern here are the SAME BRAND of glasses CC sells for $49.99 for $110 
Gidgee Eyewear Australia - Mavericks


----------



## Northern

Peggysue said:


> Nothern you said who's cares how they got there it shouldn't be judged which means anything goes right?? PS, perhaps it's that you have a serious deficiency in reading comprehension. I have explained my position, replete with analogies (that are being *twisted,* to boot!), EVERY WHICH WAY BUT LOOSE! * If* you don't "get" my point by now, *further explanations avail nothing!* AS I said before, y'all leave me alone with demanding further explanations! I. AM. FINISHED. EXPLAINING. THIS. FULL EXPLANATIONS *DONE*, beam me up, Jesus, there's no intelligent life down here!
> 
> I would like to see Stacy Westfall, Sarah Winters and Linda Parelli (although I have never seen her do anything I liked)


I'm unfamiliar with Sarah, but Stacy's tough to beat.


----------



## Peggysue

Sarah is Richard Winters daughter and she is a very soft beautiful rider and I am sure her daddy taught her well... she was his pen wrangler and would hand stuff in without his asking...

Or even a apprentice Road to the Horse where each training takes an apprentice and the apprentice does all the work...

Chris Cox guy Clayton has a nice touch and does a good job I seen him work at Cloverdale, IN in 2009 when I had my mare there for myself 

Pat's Trevor would be neat to see 

and Richard's daughter


----------



## Peggysue

or have one trainer do the training and then they draw horses for the obstacle course ... it's about trust and training then the others should be able to ride the horse


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## Cobalt

I didn't have to wait in any sort of line to get my free level 1 and 2. I waited until Sunday morning and walked right up, talked to the guy at the desk, signed up, and walked away. Entire process took 5 minutes.

Yes, it's annoying to have to sign up for the online club. BUT, if he hadn't done that, there would have been no way to keep people from getting 10 of them and then selling them on ebay. There has to be some kind of control on how they are distributed. It is no big deal to me to log in, go to "my account" and then hit, "cancel membership." Really, how sorry is it that people are complaining about that? Free IS free, and that level 1 and 2 will cost me a grand total of 10 minutes of my time. 

For what its worth, the marketing industry in the NH world drives me nuts. I won't watch RFD Tv because all it is is one infomercial after another. And they are ALL guilty of it. They all have these merchandising empires. I get so tired of them telling me I have to have a certain halter or stick. I need to buy this brand of socks or a feeder with cups in the bottom. It grates on my every last nerve. CA took up an entire back corner of the vending tent for his "merchandising empire." 

I take my hat off to the Buck Branaman's of the NH world. Now THERE'S a guy who's keeping it REAL.


----------



## Peggysue

Nothern you said the jounry getting there didn't count as long as the horse looked relaxed and happy


----------



## DieselPony

I didn't watch it this year. I saw a few clips, mainly just highlight clips, but I would like someone to help clarify something for me. I've read several different threads like this I've seen the same thing several times.

Please note, that I do not support any one guy or another. Nor will I ever support just any one trainer over another, so I am not trying to bash or anything.

So I've read that Chris Cox and Pat Parelli should have been a tie. That they both had quiet horses, both did well each day and it should have been a tie but some people are getting all defensive saying that PP was 2nd because he got bucked off and that it is incredibly unfair to judge a trainer on being bucked off.

I don't understand, how is it unfair to judge a trainer on being bucked off? 

He clearly read the horse wrong. Whatever the reasoning for reading the horse wrong was. PP could have had a bad day, could have had nerves. And didn't he say he wouldn't get on a horse until he was ready? So he clearly read wrong at that moment so why can't a trainer be docked marks for that?
Especially in a competition that looks for the best trainer in that time frame. 

Is there a showmanship section for being judged? I doubt it, but anyways...
This is different and might open a whole nother can of worms, but everyone needs to remember that it is human nature, ingrained, and no way around it, as unbiased as someone says they are, there is always some hidden deep down.
But I wonder if some of the judges wanted to peg CC higher because he wasn't involved in the bickering I read about between CA and PP. But then, he may have been, I'm just going off of what I've read from other people, some who weren't even there.


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## Peggysue

cobalt go to a CC tour or clinic and there is NO MARKETING... in fact when he takes off the web halters and puts "his" halter on he tells you while he likes the feel and weight of his stuff ANY rope halter with a attached 12' lead will work 

But I have to admit I have TWO of his halters and I can't say enough good about the feel and response I get with them.


----------



## Cobalt

Peggysue said:


> cobalt go to a CC tour or clinic and there is NO MARKETING... in fact when he takes off the web halters and puts "his" halter on he tells you while he likes the feel and weight of his stuff ANY rope halter with a attached 12' lead will work
> 
> But I have to admit I have TWO of his halters and I can't say enough good about the feel and response I get with them.


I've never been to a clinic of his but that is good to hear. I just know that when I watch RFD TV they are all selling stuff. It annoys me. I still use web halters and (shock gasp) my horses act just fine!


----------



## Peggysue

DieselPony said:


> I didn't watch it this year. I saw a few clips, mainly just highlight clips, but I would like someone to help clarify something for me. I've read several different threads like this I've seen the same thing several times.
> 
> Please note, that I do not support any one guy or another. Nor will I ever support just any one trainer over another, so I am not trying to bash or anything.
> 
> So I've read that Chris Cox and Pat Parelli should have been a tie. That they both had quiet horses, both did well each day and it should have been a tie but some people are getting all defensive saying that PP was 2nd because he got bucked off and that it is incredibly unfair to judge a trainer on being bucked off.
> 
> IMO Chris's horse was much softer and all then PP's so I am sure that was "extra" credit on CC's part... CC's horse was also turning and stopping alot better then PP"s and CC called his gaits then did them where Pat would let his horse get in the gait then call it
> I don't understand, how is it unfair to judge a trainer on being bucked off?
> I Honestly think he should have beeb DQ'ed for it but I am not a judge LOL
> He clearly read the horse wrong. Whatever the reasoning for reading the horse wrong was. PP could have had a bad day, could have had nerves. And didn't he say he wouldn't get on a horse until he was ready? So he clearly read wrong at that moment so why can't a trainer be docked marks for that?
> Especially in a competition that looks for the best trainer in that time frame.
> It was shortly after his comment about "young man's disease" and not getting on until he KNEW the horse wouldn't buck
> Is there a showmanship section for being judged? I doubt it, but anyways...
> This is different and might open a whole nother can of worms, but everyone needs to remember that it is human nature, ingrained, and no way around it, as unbiased as someone says they are, there is always some hidden deep down.
> But I wonder if some of the judges wanted to peg CC higher because he wasn't involved in the bickering I read about between CA and PP. But then, he may have been, I'm just going off of what I've read from other people, some who weren't even there.


I am sure the bickering and snide comments counted towards something a "REAL" horseman wouldn't do it and Chris didn't 

Now there is always alot of joking going on ... the one that stands out in my mind is when the "boys" were picking on Stacy for her pink stick and she told them to watch and learn boys ... the whole place was laughing 

Clinton and Pat just took it too far


----------



## Peggysue

Cobalt said:


> I've never been to a clinic of his but that is good to hear. I just know that when I watch RFD TV they are all selling stuff. It annoys me. I still use web halters and (shock gasp) my horses act just fine!


 
I use web for everything but training ... but then again I keep my CC's halters in the house covered with my "good" stuff LOL the only thing left outside are my web halters and leads that go with them.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Peggysue said:


> Nothern you said the jounry getting there didn't count as long as the horse looked relaxed and happy


Silly PeggySue, you did not read her post right, that is what she typed but she means (as has been proven by so many threads showing PP and LP doing things that go against their teachings) that it does not matter how PP gets there as long as the horse looks good in the end.

It does matter how the rest of the world gets there....just not PP.


Other people are meanie doodie heads if they think of using force in any form.


----------



## Peggysue

Alwaysbehind said:


> Silly PeggySue, you did not read her post right, that is what she typed but she means (as has been proven by so many threads showing PP and LP doing things that go against their teachings) that it does not matter how PP gets there as long as the horse looks good in the end.
> 
> It does matter how the rest of the world gets there....just not PP.
> 
> 
> Other people are meanie doodie heads if they think of using force in any form.


 
**** one of the Parelliti's told me if I mad my horse sweat while ground working I was abusing it I looked at her and laughed... hello I am in IL humity get up in 90% sometimes in MAY or June my horses stand in the pasture and sweat does that mean I need to install AC with a tent over my property


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## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> posting the results would take the suspense out of it and I am sure CA would be having more of a fit then he already is/does.


Oh man good point



Peggysue said:


> I do think it would be nice to see the judges score sheets at the end of it all just to see the comments and thoughts they noted and see how close I was, there were things on each one I noticed both good and bad


Agreed. It seems a little mysterious.


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## Peggysue

I think the mysteryis part of the fun in going though LOL but I havce tended to agree with the judges so.... maybe I understand the point of it better.


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## Peggysue

and if they posted as they went along some trainers would pressure the horses even more trying to make up the points and win


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## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> or have one trainer do the training and then they draw horses for the obstacle course ... it's about trust and training then the others should be able to ride the horse


OK that's crazy. I for one would not ride CAs horse - no way. 

I like your ideas regarding the competitors.

I am just going to forget that I read the horse head hanging thing and say that I somehow misunderstood you.


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## Peggysue

loved the horse world is very cruel at times and while I have never nor would I ever hang a horse like that ... it is done alot more then we all think. 

Here is why Chris won listen to what he says
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/video/video.php?v=1851623851307&oid=163055487126


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## TheLovedOne

Cobalt said:


> For what its worth, the marketing industry in the NH world drives me nuts. I won't watch RFD Tv because all it is is one infomercial after another. And they are ALL guilty of it. They all have these merchandising empires. I get so tired of them telling me I have to have a certain halter or stick. I need to buy this brand of socks or a feeder with cups in the bottom. It grates on my every last nerve. CA took up an entire back corner of the vending tent for his "merchandising empire."
> 
> I take my hat off to the Buck Branaman's of the NH world. Now THERE'S a guy who's keeping it REAL.


Thanks for saying this about RFD I had no idea and I agree with all the NH over-marketing. 

Buck is a good horseman for sure.


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## Peggysue

honestly Loved after watching the round pens I wouldn't have gotten on Pat or CLinton's horse

I bet Pat's horse bucked for half hour or more total ... and I know my *** hits harder then those balloons were


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## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> loved the horse world is very cruel at times and while I have never nor would I ever hang a horse like that ... it is done alot more then we all think.


I know this but I just don't want to associate with people that do...


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## Peggysue

none of us want to but life isn't always what we want it to be, if you show you are around these people... I see stuff trail riding that turns my stomach the big plus with trail riding is there is no judge to dock you for cussing another person out although I have been asked to leave for letting the rope out and untacking some drunks horse before LOL Poor horse was tied and couldn't reach it's water fully tacked while the owner was passed out and it had gotten tangled in by the horn in the tie line

just in case the link above is messed up I am trying this again 
Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More


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## TheLovedOne

Actually Peggysue there is a choice. I would not attend shows and put myself through that. Just your mere involvement in those activities actually endorses it. Would you buy Coke if you knew it still had cocaine in it and give it to your kids. No I doubt it. Well I guess I'm lucky I actually do not need to associate with people like that and in fact I generally speak out against them.

All the comments about the process not mattering and only the end mattered were actually an argument against Peggysue's comment earlier. Which was that because I didn't understand what PP did the colt must have succeeded in the obstacle course because of divine intervention. The point was that the process did matter - Gosh I would hate to see either Peggysue or AB solve a calculus problem 

OK now can we leave it alone.

PP getting bucked off is probably what lost it for him. I don't know and that's why I don't like mysteries  However, if anyone should have been disqualified it was certainly CA. PP made a mistake which he admitted and he also congratulated CC at the end. I don't know about all this other bad talk people are referring to - I only heard CA say a couple of nasty things. Other than that I thought everyone behaved. I too think that the competitors should not have microphones 'cause all that heavy breathing and clucking from CA drove me crazy!


----------



## Peggysue

it had nothing to do with me no understanding it has to do with what natural horsemanship is which is training as "naturally" as we can 

PP"s horse was no way close to be as responsive as CC's on the obstacles and CC's turns were just amazing and actually not as good as the last two times he won.


----------



## Peggysue

OH and on the RFD thing those commercials pay for your favorite person to be there and support the station itself so while they drive us all crazy they are a needed thing


----------



## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> PP"s horse was no way close to be as responsive as CC's on the obstacles and CC's turns were just amazing and actually not as good as the last two times he won.


OK here's the thing: We (as in you, me and everyone else on this planet except the judges) don't know how or why the judges scored it because the scores were not published.

I have heard your opinions and stated my own far more than I would ever like to do. Just because you keep saying something does not make it true.


----------



## TheLovedOne

Peggysue said:


> OH and on the RFD thing those commercials pay for your favorite person to be there and support the station itself so while they drive us all crazy they are a needed thing


What? So it's OK for RFD to do it but when PP does it it is something entirely different like an act of the devil. I'm starting to think that you are just jealous of someone who has actually made quite a bit of money in the horse world. 

All of us need money not just RFD including PP.


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## TheLovedOne

OK now really I have to get some things done. BFN


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## Peggysue

TheLovedOne said:


> What? So it's OK for RFD to do it but when PP does it it is something entirely different like an act of the devil. I'm starting to think that you are just jealous of someone who has actually made quite a bit of money in the horse world.
> 
> All of us need money not just RFD including PP.


 
any TV station has commercials RFD's are just geared toward the type of person watching that show... jealous of what?? I don't care what Pat has made or done and I was NOT the one who said anything about the commercials I said I didn't like him using RTTH where he is suppose to be explaining what he is doing and why as a commercial 

When asked a question he would direct us to his clinic where we would learn what he was doing and why... that is NOT what RTTH is for or about none of the others have EVER done this when asked a question they answered it and he didn't

And when Rick Lamb is asking a question there is something strange going on....normally the questions that he asked are about how the trainer is feeling about the responses the horse is giving or something along those lines...I guess that is the difference in being there and hearing about it you get to see and hear what actually went on and understand what people are saying... 

Go to Stacy WEstfall's facebook page and scroll way down until you come to Sun it gave me a good laugh for sure


----------



## franknbeans

OMG. Peggysue-obviously she is about the only one who could not clearly SEE the difference in the softness and responsiveness betwseen CC and PP's horses. She must be totally "blinded by the light".......(now I will have that song stuck in my head). Is that really possible she couldn't see that? 

And noone should go anywhere or do anything because we might expose ourselves to people who treat their horses in ways we don't approve of? Even a trail ride like you were on....really? Wow. **shakes head in disbelief**


----------



## franknbeans

Alwaysbehind said:


> Silly PeggySue, you did not read her post right, that is what she typed but she means (as has been proven by so many threads showing PP and LP doing things that go against their teachings) that it does not matter how PP gets there as long as the horse looks good in the end.
> 
> It does matter how the rest of the world gets there....just not PP.
> 
> 
> Other people are meanie doodie heads if they think of using force in any form.


AB-that is because their mothers wouldn't like it. You know, PP is all about treating the horse in a way that his mother...looking down from the heavens or whereever.....would approve of. He said that several times. Obviously, his colts mother didn't like what she saw.:wink:


----------



## TheLovedOne

Whatever


----------



## franknbeans

With regard to PP's infomercials.....as inappropriate as his impromptu clinic was when he was in the pen, I really think that is just automatic for him, and perhaps he should know that about himself, and have had the mike shut off when he was training. I would prefer to think he didn't interrupt Rick Lamb, etc intentionally. However, it did seem like every time they asked him a question, he answer with a sales pitch for his colt starting clinc, his program, his cow wow...whatever. I thought it was ridiculous.

And just for the record-PP made several snied comments before CA said a THING. Started with the "artful" cow cutting comment, then to the one something along the lines of "some people can make any horse upset...." and it went downhill from there. It was not until PP was doing another one of his commercials( when he offered the "free" stuff that CA spoke up. (after CC also spoke up and offered his clinics free for 2 weeks)Then CA said the comment about if it was worth something you wouldn't have to give it away. And he gets nailed for it. First, I think he was at least 1/2 kidding, second, I think he was probably as fed up as many of us at PP's constant self promotion. I would agree that at the end I would have liked CA to be more of a good sport and congratulated CC. That was the only fault with his behavior I personally saw.


----------



## Peggysue

Frank did you go to Chris' site to see what he has going on the next two weeks?? I have LOL


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## franknbeans

Yeah-guess we are invited to his house! lol


----------



## Peggysue

franknbeans said:


> Yeah-guess we are invited to his house! lol


 
want me to pick you up on the way ?? ****


----------



## franknbeans

:rofl:Thanks, but I am afraind that VA is not on the way to TX from Illinois.....Darn.

Altho,:think: you could come trail ride here.....with my "parelli" trainer/BO.....I am pretty sure he treats his horses well, so you won't be associating with rifraf.:wink:


----------



## Peggysue

heck what's a few more hours on a trip like that LOL


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## franknbeans

Thought this was nice actually. I really liked Cali! Thought she was great!

It does occur to me that he likes blondes.......;-)


----------



## Northern

franknbeans said:


> YouTube - Pat Parelli and his Road to the Horse 2011 Team
> Thought this was nice actually. I really liked Cali! Thought she was great!
> 
> *It does occur to me that he likes blondes.......;-)*


frank&beans, that's the most perceptive thing you've said on this thread!:lol::wink: Good grief, he's inundated with them at this point, whether they be bleached or unbleached!

A really funny clip is on the row there, Pat's Bloopers, btw! "You can see Montana through that crotch!" LOL!


----------



## Peggysue

Ya know he left his first wife for Linda is what I "heard" or read somewhere


----------



## Northern

Gentlemen prefer Blondes. 

Brunettes are too smart for them!


----------



## franknbeans

Northern said:


> frank&beans, that's the most perceptive thing you've said on this thread!:lol::wink: Good grief, he's inundated with them at this point, whether they be bleached or unbleached!
> 
> A really funny clip is on the row there, Pat's Bloopers, btw! "You can see Montana through that crotch!" LOL!


Gee, thanks, Northern. I really DO pay attention.:wink: And yes,I had heard the same thing about Linda.....wonder where she was.....????


----------



## mom2pride

Cobalt said:


> Forgive me for not weeding back through these posts to find the exact reference, but someone earlier said that Parelli offered free level 1 and 2 but that they ended up costing $150.
> 
> That isn't true at all. I went to Pat's booth and got my free level 1 and 2. It won't cost me a dime. I had to sign up for a free 30 day trial to his new online forum, but I can cancel anytime within 30 days and won't be charged a penny. If I choose to stay, I can join at various price points (as little as $50 per year). I will check it out but I'm certain I will cancel. I get to keep level 1 and 2 regardless. So he DID give this away for free. I wanted to clear that up. People were freaking out about him lying about that, but he didn't lie. It is free or I wouldn't have them.
> 
> I say this as a non-Parelli follower. As I said before, I had to give the man a lot more of my respect than I intended after the weekend. I went in having a very negative impression. I still think he talks too much and has an ego to rival CA's, but I was impressed with the work he did with that horse. Of the 3, he spent the least time running that horse around. Everyone can say it was breeding that made that horse friendly towards Pat, but I think if CA had chosen that horse, the horse wouldn't have met Clinton at the gate on day 2.


Well then apparently it wasn't quite clear to alot of folks because when my friend and I went up there, there were ALOT of people walking away, stating that you had to purchase the mini trial, in order to get the levels 1 and 2...we decided to walk away after seeing so many disgruntled folks walk away. I guess if we would have hung out we could have found out that they had in fact misunderstood. :-( 

Part of the reason CA wanted an active horse, was because the last time he lost RTTH was that he had been told that his horse hadn't had enough movement in his feet; so he wanted to make sure he got a horse that could go the distance this time around. I think in some ways, he probably made a 'bad' choice choosing that way, really, since that colt was so hot...you could tell he was a leader, just by the way he interacted in the herd; causing ruckus, kicking, biting, etc...but that was a choice CA had to deal with. I really liked that horse though, since my mare is kind of the same way in alot of ways...not 'leadership' style, but just kind of hot, and sensitive. If I were to do an event like this though, I would have chosen a more inbetween horse, myself...that solid buckskin would have been perfect...he was curious, confident, but not a trouble maker  

And the competition/obstacle course round was NOT the first time CAs horse had the bit in his mouth...he had bitted him up the first competition day!!! And then almost right away during the second round of training he put it in, so he could get used to it while he did his ground work. That horse did so much better in the round pen...but horses are not robots, so it's not like you could expect a colt to perform perfectly outside the round pen, infront of 8000 people for his second ride. I think that's the problem with a lot of people; they expect the horse to look perfect, when he's really still getting used to the idea of alot of this stuff... I'm not trying to make excuses for CA...just stating how I see it from a horse trainer's perspective; 4 hrs worth of work is NOT alot of work...what do people expect out of a horse? A finished horse? Really? Yes, Cox's horse looked AMAZING, but that IMO is not the norm, and different trainers have different methods, so not every horse is going to look the same. CA horse excelled at the ground work, there is no denying that...but that is an area he emphasizes in his training methods, so of course he is going to try and make sure he does as much as he can with the time he has. With Cox, it was the feel...and making sure the horse understood that when he was with him, or tack was on him, he was to be 'tuned in' to Cox...he emphsized that by letting the colt rest as long as he was focused in Cox's direction...if that focus came off him, he went back in and started working him again. 

Now I'm not saying CA didn't make some mistakes along the way, but again, I challenge anyone here to take the same 4 hours and take the same unhandled 3 year old and make him not just halter broke (he was definitely the best in hand), but rideable, as well. I'm guessing that not too many of the critiquers here could do it.


----------



## franknbeans

I do believe that was the confusion that PP apologized for on Sunday....he apologized for. He specifically said he "apologized for any confusion....."

I heard many people say they loved that Buckskin. He would have easily been my choice too. They were all extremely well put together tho. I probably would have kept any that found their way home with me.....


----------



## Northern

PeggySue or f&b, I'm unable to access facebook, so please tell me the gist of Stacy's comment! Thanks!


----------



## mom2pride

franknbeans said:


> I do believe that was the confusion that PP apologized for on Sunday....he apologized for. He specifically said he "apologized for any confusion....."
> 
> I heard many people say they loved that Buckskin. He would have easily been my choice too. They were all extremely well put together tho. I probably would have kept any that found their way home with me.....


Yeah if I had the extra cash in my pocket, I totally would have taken that colt home with me...and Clinton's too...they really were all good looking horses. 

I wondered if that's what he was apologizing for...now I wish I had gotten a chance to go back up there before we had to leave, but it got so crazy before the end of the competition that we just got out of there as soon as we got the chance to, after the awards ceremony...and we still had to sit in the parking lot for an hour!!! :shock:


----------



## Northern

Did anyone else read Stacy Westfall's comment on her Facebook?


----------



## mom2pride

Northern said:


> Did anyone else read Stacy Westfall's comment on her Facebook?


Hang on, let me see if I can get on her FB :wink:

So what comment are you looking for??? I'm on there, but not sure what you're looking for in particular...Lol!


----------



## Northern

Sorry to keep you waiting! PS said scroll down to Sunday & she comments on PP compared to CC in RTTH. Thanks!


----------



## Michael

I enjoyed the event. CA was a a$$ the whole time to both PP and CC. He only wasn't if you are a CA fan. I have been wacthing all of them PP was a little cocky but that just added to the fun of watching the whole thing. Oh and PP was referring to himself about the young mans disease. CC is a great trainer and won honestly. The only scores that I seen that were close were between CC and PP, CA was out of it and no where close in the end. Oh and the comment made by CA about if there stuff was any good they would not have to give it away was very uncalled for even though his wife who seating right behind us agreed with and we could see why.LOL. If you really want to know how CA really is go appretice for him and see how long it lasts. We use some of his methods and they do work very well but I think he will be his on down fall in end. I am ready to see how CA does in the show pen with big boys.


----------



## Northern

Michael said:


> PP was a little cocky but that just added to the fun of watching the whole thing.:lol: Oh and the comment made by CA about if there stuff was any good they would not have to give it away was very uncalled for even though his wife who seating right behind us *agreed with and we could see why*.LOL. QUOTE]
> 
> Michael, would you please clarify the bolded? The wife agreed with CA? You could see why means ?? Thanks!


----------



## franknbeans

Sorry to keep you waiting Northern.....I will try and paste the comments. Here are the first 50.........

Welcome to Facebook - Log In, Sign Up or Learn More


Stact was using her FB page to take questions/comments from the crowd while she announced. I think this is what you want. It is MANY people asking them to shut off the mike of PP and a few who were tired of CA breathing......

I trying the link myself, it would appear you can access all the comments......


----------



## mom2pride

Hmmm...I can't find any comments comparing any of the trainers against each other...and I've gone back several pages into Sunday...Lol!!! Maybe who ever found that will have to come back and post it here...


----------



## franknbeans

Michael said:


> I enjoyed the event. CA was a a$$ the whole time to both PP and CC. He only wasn't if you are a CA fan. I have been wacthing all of them PP was a little cocky but that just added to the fun of watching the whole thing. Oh and PP was referring to himself about the young mans disease. CC is a great trainer and won honestly. The only *scores that I seen* You saw the actual scores? Did they post them somewhere? that were close were between CC and PP, CA was out of it and no where close in the end. ( unless they DID post the scores, this would be your opinion) If they did, please share what you can remember....I did NOT see it as that clear cut at all, until the final ride. Oh and the comment made by CA about if there stuff was any good they would not have to give it away was very uncalled for even though his wife who seating right behind us agreed with and we could see why.LOL.(will wait until you clarify this with Northern, I am confused. Did you not hear the other comments from PP staring on Friday? Also uncalled for perhaps? I am not saying any of them were right, just saying perhaps CA was fed up at the underhanded remarks. If you really want to know how CA really is go appretice for him and see how long it lasts. ( I have heard the same about PP from people who have been there.)We use some of his methods and they do work very well but I think he will be his on down fall in end. I am ready to see how CA does in the show pen with big boys.You mean cutting and reining? I bet he will do fine.[/QUOTE]
> 
> Will be anxious to hear what the scores were!


----------



## Northern

mom2pride, thanks so much for trying! Goodness, I didn't see f&b's post up thar! Ok, let's see...


----------



## mom2pride

franknbeans said:


> It was not until PP was doing another one of his commercials( when he offered the "free" stuff that CA spoke up. (after CC also spoke up and offered his clinics free for 2 weeks)Then CA said the comment about if it was worth something you wouldn't have to give it away. And he gets nailed for it. First, I think he was at least 1/2 kidding, second, I think he was probably as fed up as many of us at PP's constant self promotion. I would agree that at the end I would have liked CA to be more of a good sport and congratulated CC.


I totally took his comment at CC's free clinics as a joke as well...since I've gone to a few free CA clinics in the past. Actually, for most of his tours, if you are a member, and know of a business that could promote his tours, you can offer free tickets there...kind of cool. Plus you get a certain amount of free tour tickets yourself each year as well. 

I really wish he would have hung out at the end too, but we're all human, and all handle defeat differently. not that that excuses him from atleast offering a high five or hand shake, but whatever...it's over, so what's the difference...

Now off to try and find what everyone is picking on westfall about...:? or whatever that whole deal is about...


----------



## Michael

wow. folks are just as catty here as they were at the event. Everyone has an opinion. Just because we don't agree doesn't make us right. BTW CA will be faulted for having his horses behind the vertical. It doesn't take any talent at all to pull a bridle off a horse and scare it into running wild around an arena and then crashing into the gate.


----------



## Northern

franknbeans said:


> OMG. Peggysue-obviously *she* is about the only one who could not clearly SEE the difference in the softness and responsiveness betwseen CC and PP's horses. *She* must be totally "blinded by the light".......(now I will have that song stuck in my head). Is that really possible she couldn't see that?


f&b, so "she" wasn't Stacy comparing PP & CC, but just one who commented? It'd make sense, since SW has to keep it politically correct & NOT comment, I imagine.


----------



## franknbeans

Michael said:


> wow. folks are just as catty here as they were at the event. Everyone has an opinion. Just because we don't agree doesn't make us right. BTW CA will be faulted for having his horses behind the vertical. It doesn't take any talent at all to pull a bridle off a horse and scare it into running wild around an arena and then crashing into the gate.


 
Again, I respectfully ask. Did you actually see scores? Where they posted? CA will be faulted by WHO? Just the masses like us? 

You must have seen a crash I missed. I saw him run through the OPEN gate, but not crash it at all. I did, however wonder how he would get off.....:wink: 

And yes, we are all entitled to our opinions.


----------



## Northern

Michael said:


> the vertical. It doesn't take any talent at all to pull a bridle off a horse and scare it into running wild around an arena and then crashing into the gate.


In addition to my first question, Michael, is it true that CA's horse crashed into a gate?

ETA: you posted first, f&b, so another disagreement that I'll have to live with. How do I get an unwanted post cancelled? I clicked cancel & it's still on the board.


----------



## franknbeans

Northern said:


> f&b, so "she" wasn't Stacy comparing PP & CC, but just one who commented? It'd make sense, since SW has to keep it politically correct & NOT comment, I imagine.


 
That post was directed at TLO! TLO was the "she" I was referring to, not Stacy at all. When Peggy referred to posts on Stacy page, these are what she was referring to, I think, since that was what people in the crowd were doing. Many of us couldn't access it, but many were sure trying!:wink: Peggysue and I were having a difficult (for lack of a better word) time with TLO and her comprehension. 

I would not ever think SW would comment on the 2 except VERY generically, like they are both very good or something.


----------



## franknbeans

I also found all the people around me all 3 days really nice, not catty at all, so guess we will have to disagree on that too. Everyone was just there to have fun. The only groans I heard were about food lines and having to watch Tomas...yet again......a total of 3 times.


----------



## Northern

f&b, thank you for clearing all up. SORRY, Mom2pride!


----------



## MyBoyPuck

Are they going to show any highlights of this event on RFDTV, or is it done and gone?


----------



## franknbeans

No problem Northern-sorry I didn't get to it sooner!


----------



## Michael

Yes the horse ran into the gate it was before they opened up the gate for CA to exit. Yes in NRHA he will be deducted for the way he rides and the horses position. He is a good train just really rubbed us the wrong way at the event. And his wife who defened us when he made the comment about not giving his stuff away for free made it reel clear its all about the money and not the horses or poeple. We will no longer support him. Thats our take of it yours may be differnt. PP is to slow with his training and he even stated that the time frame did not suit his method. CC method is more of a to the point deal which is nice for those of use who don't want to listen to all PP rambling. But opinions very with every one but to quote PP I don't care who you follow as long as you follow someone and make it better for you and your horse.


----------



## Michael

franknbeans said:


> I also found all the people around me all 3 days really nice, not catty at all, so guess we will have to disagree on that too. Everyone was just there to have fun. The only groans I heard were about food lines and having to watch Tomas...yet again......a total of 3 times.


 No not every one was catty we were around some very nice folks. And I will have to agree with the Tomas thing it got old fast. Although sitting in the tight seating being a taller person was tuff in the end.


----------



## franknbeans

I heard the seats were really small. We were in the bleachers ot the end....by the wonderful Italian ice.....;-) Uncomfortable, but could see and hear really well. The audio on the sides seemed bad.

It actually made me cringe to watch Tomas make his grey hop around on its knees. I just couldn't watch it. I thought that was horrible.


----------



## mom2pride

franknbeans said:


> I also found all the people around me all 3 days really nice, not catty at all, so guess we will have to disagree on that too. Everyone was just there to have fun. The only groans I heard were about food lines and having to watch Tomas...yet again......a total of 3 times.


I agree...I found the people around me and the friends I traveled with to be very delightful, and there for one main common thread...the horse. We even traveled to and from via plane with several of the same folks...it was kind of neat. 

5 times...Tomas came out 5 times...lol... hahaha; if you want to get 'technical'...

The lines at the restrooms were a pain too...


----------



## Peggysue

Michael said:


> wow. folks are just as catty here as they were at the event. Everyone has an opinion. Just because we don't agree doesn't make us right. BTW CA will be faulted for having his horses behind the vertical. It doesn't take any talent at all to pull a bridle off a horse and scare it into running wild around an arena and then crashing into the gate.


MIchael did you see how he was keeping him off the gate before he was ready to go out... that stock whip made a great rein used to his jaw area didn't it 

such a relief that I was not the only one NOT impressed by that!!



franknbeans said:


> Again, I respectfully ask. Did you actually see scores? Where they posted? CA will be faulted by WHO? Just the masses like us?
> 
> You must have seen a crash I missed. I saw him run through the OPEN gate, but not crash it at all. I did, however wonder how he would get off.....:wink:
> 
> And yes, we are all entitled to our opinions.


everytime the horse was on the gate end of the areana and "stopped" it was bumping the gate he used his stock whip up near the horse's head/jaw to turn it and get it going again... talk about wishing I had video




franknbeans said:


> I also found all the people around me all 3 days really nice, not catty at all, so guess we will have to disagree on that too. Everyone was just there to have fun. The only groans I heard were about food lines and having to watch Tomas...yet again......a total of 3 times.


I got dirty looks from the PP people because I was discussing his methods with the person I went with and NEITHER of us understood WTH he was trying to do




MyBoyPuck said:


> Are they going to show any highlights of this event on RFDTV, or is it done and gone?


Normally the only way to see it is to buy the DVD's, you might see snippets of it and of course keep an eye on youtube more videos will pop up as time goes by 

Northern I don't think I ever said Stacy was commenting on CC at all I think I said people where commenting on CA and PP's mike situation


----------



## Peggysue

This is link to the comments from Road to the HOrse's page on FB this is actually a "note" type about it with condensed version of how they all did 
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/note.php?note_id=10150162002098185&comments


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## Peggysue

Two things here then I am off and running for a bit 

1: what the hell was up with the cow bells and PP's people??

2: CLinton's followers are actually a bunch of cry babies ****


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## franknbeans

Those were pp's giveaway-like CA's light up flags. CC's people just had the plaquards. Like him, quiet and get the job done. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Peggysue

Is it bad for me to admit I wanted that barrel to fall over when he was standing on it to show just ONE reason why what he was doing was unsafe??


----------



## kitten_Val

Folks, number of unrelated posts were removed. _*Please, stay on track!*_ 

And please, don't use net speak, because for many people on board English is not a primary language and net speak may be very confusing. Thank you for cooperation, All!


----------



## Peggysue

franknbeans said:


> Those were pp's giveaway-like CA's light up flags. CC's people just had the plaquards. Like him, quiet and get the job done. Lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OH I see .. so he had to be the loudest and most obnoxious makes sense


----------



## Northern

Peggysue said:


> Go to Stacy WEstfall's facebook page and scroll way down until you come to Sun it gave me a good laugh for sure





franknbeans said:


> OMG. Peggysue-obviously she is about the only one who could not clearly SEE the difference in the softness and responsiveness betwseen CC and PP's horses. She must be totally "blinded by the light".......(now I will have that song stuck in my head). Is that really possible she couldn't see that?


PeggySue, looked like here that you & f&b were talking about Stacy comment.


----------



## Peggysue

Northern said:


> PeggySue, looked like here that you & f&b were talking about Stacy comment.


 
Sorry ..... I was about half asleep


----------



## Peggysue

Chris Cox bought his colt from Road to the Horse


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## Northern

So did PP, named him Partner!


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## Peggysue

Actually it is Trubadour now.. he changed it


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## Northern

Really?! Troubadour is correct spelling, btw. How do you keep your finger on the news pulse so well, PS?


----------



## Peggysue

Facebook  

that is also what Craig Cameron named his horse that he won on last year


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## Northern

wish i could get on fb but i misspelled my email & don't know how to delete it so i can get my right email address in there for them


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## Peggysue

hmmm just make a new one silly

and BTW I used spellcheck and it didn't catch the misspell LOL I probably broke it by over using it


----------



## Northern

Tried that, it keeps throwing old one at me. It's only a one-letter typo - argghh! Funny about spellcheck!


----------



## franknbeans

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Peggysue*  
_Go to Stacy WEstfall's facebook page and scroll way down until you come to Sun it gave me a good laugh for sure_

Quote:
Originally Posted by *franknbeans*  
_OMG. Peggysue-obviously she is about the only one who could not clearly SEE the difference in the softness and responsiveness betwseen CC and PP's horses. She must be totally "blinded by the light".......(now I will have that song stuck in my head). Is that really possible she couldn't see that?_

PeggySue, looked like here that you & f&b were talking about Stacy comment. 




Actually, Northern, I was referring to TLO. Not Stacy at all.


----------



## Northern

f&b, you already explained that to me, & I've already posted thank you for doing so. The above post was for PS in answer to _her_ confusion over the issue. Over & Out!


----------



## Peggysue

LOL Northern


----------



## Peggysue

Judges from RTTH talking about the horses and such 
about 1:55 starts the PP buck off pics 
Judges Speak


----------



## Walkamile

Thanks for posting that link Peggysue. Enjoyed listening very much.


----------



## franknbeans

Thanks PS!


----------



## Peggysue

seeing those bucks frame by frame was pretty cool too


----------



## Northern

Thanks, PS; great stills of the buck-off - oh, I mean PP's bail-off.


----------



## Peggysue

LOL those stills show it was a buck off too 
I wish I had one of those cameras!!! mine took poopy pics all weekend ;( All my pics are blurry


----------



## Cobalt

Tell ya what, the most impressive thing I saw at RTTH was Chris Cox give a cow cutting demonstration in English tack. He didn't touch the safety strap at all that I could see. He stayed glued to the middle of that saddle. Impressed the heck out of me!!!!!


----------



## Cobalt

Also, if you go to RTTH's facebook page, they have posted a video of Pat with his RTTH horse at his Florida ranch...3 days after the RTTH competition. Love him or hate him, I think its a pretty incredible video.


----------



## Peggysue

Cobalt said:


> Tell ya what, the most impressive thing I saw at RTTH was Chris Cox give a cow cutting demonstration in English tack. He didn't touch the safety strap at all that I could see. He stayed glued to the middle of that saddle. Impressed the heck out of me!!!!!


He did grab the pommel and some mane but **** who wouldn't 
Chris amazes me more everytime I see him and the fact that his methods WORK on about everything he is just great and nice as can be as well



Cobalt said:


> Also, if you go to RTTH's facebook page, they have posted a video of Pat with his RTTH horse at his Florida ranch...3 days after the RTTH competition. Love him or hate him, I think its a pretty incredible video.


I dont' deny he has something but you can't learn and he can't teach what he has... it's just HIM. 

You also have to realize that some horses are BORN that way and in ways it makes them harder to work with hard to stay mad at a horse that all it wants is LOVE LOL


----------



## Cobalt

I was on the opposite side of the arena from Chris during his demo so I didn't see him grab mane! LOL! But he was stuck like glue in that saddle and being predominantly an english rider myself he went up a big notch in my book that day! 

I agree that with Parelli there is just "something" there with him and I think that its not necessarily something he can teach. I think he was dead on right when he said he connected with that horse. That horse and him seem to "get" each other. The horse seemed to be a very willing partner and I'm not sure how much of that is horse and how much of that is Parelli or what combination of the two!


----------



## BFFofHorses

I read a Chris Cox book and loved it. So glad he won! He is very good, and informative too. Saw him at Equine Affaire this past fall. I am not very familiar with Parelli, and have never liked Clinton Anderson. CC deserved to win, no doubt. Having fun, reading all of these comments


----------



## Peggysue

Cobalt I credit it to breeding when the breeder said "those Paddy colts just LOVE people  " 

I don't know if he was really "grabbing" mane or bracing.. let me see if I got sent a pic of that "spot"


----------



## nobody2121

Chris Cox did a real nice job on his horse! It truly takes a special talent to do this 3 day event!
I applaud all those that have entered and tried ! 

Because MANY will only make comments about the riders and horses, when they themselves would never get go put the reputation on the line in front of everyone! 
It is 1000% percent easier to sit in the stands then actually go do this 3 day event! It truly takes a special talent!


----------



## TheLovedOne

Exactly nobody2121!


----------



## nrhareiner

Dose not matter on the could but the would. I would never try and start a young horse in 3 days. There is no need. It is simply a way for these guys to brag and nothing more. It is a way for the promoters to make money. It has nothing to do with or for the horse. 

Beyond that it gives newbies the idea that they can get a 30 day wonder.


----------



## nobody2121

nrhareiner said:


> I would never try and start a young horse in 3 days.


to start, just menas to begin, the first steps. that is how "the road to the Horse" was set up. It was not set up to show a finished Bridle Horse. And most people do not have the abilties to do what the people in the competition are doing, they would get hurt. Can not think of a horse that I have started that I would not want to gather cattle on the 3rd day!


----------



## nrhareiner

What they are doing is not staring a horse. It is simply lets see have fare we can get in 3 days. Not one of those horses where properly started and each one will need to go back and be completely started over again.


Again what they are doing is nothing more then putting on a show. People pay to see this and the promoters are making a lot of money. I have no problem with making money however lets call a spade a spade.


----------



## nobody2121

this entire thing is sad


----------



## nobody2121

it would be interesting to find out who here has actually started a colt


----------



## nrhareiner

nobody2121 said:


> this entire thing is sad



Yes TRTH is sad. A play for shameless promotion by the participants and a money maker for the promoters. 

What is really sad is that people will not call it what it is. Entertainment.


----------



## nrhareiner

nobody2121 said:


> it would be interesting to find out who here has actually started a colt



I have started all of mine. It is not rocket science. It is not hard. Finishing a horse is the hard part.


----------



## Vidaloco

I just came in to see who won. Glad to see CC triumphant especially after his accident back in '06. 
I agree the winning of RTTH is just bragging rights for the winner. Its not a training course on how to do it right. 
I've started 3 from birth to saddle and 2 I'm still working on finishing. I would never in a million years call myself a horse trainer though. Just too cheap to hire one :lol:


----------



## Peggysue

Vidaloco said:


> I just came in to see who won. Glad to see CC triumphant especially after his accident back in '06.
> I agree the winning of RTTH is just bragging rights for the winner. Its not a training course on how to do it right.
> I've started 3 from birth to saddle and 2 I'm still working on finishing. I would never in a million years call myself a horse trainer though. Just too cheap to hire one :lol:


 
Chris has won it THREE times since 06 he won in 07,08 and 11  


I have started several from the ground up and actually I am starting two for friends this year  But I am NOT a trainer and I don't claim to be 

NRHA nobody is saying it's NOT Entertainment .. a lot can be learned if you listen and watch w

I will ask you the same thing I asked Loved... have you been and watched and listen to what goes on? And why have ALOT of the trainers brought their horses from this if it is ruining them?


----------



## nobody2121

nrhareiner said:


> Yes TRTH is sad. A play for shameless promotion by the participants


I never really thought of that way, it is sad to see *Stacy Westfall* would stoop that low to be a MAJOR player in that shameless promotion.

It is really sad that Stacy would promote herself like that!


----------



## Peggysue

How many people in this thread have BEEN to Road to the Horse and actually seen what goes on and HOW it is done??


----------



## nobody2121

Peggysue said:


> How many people in this thread have BEEN to Road to the Horse and actually seen what goes on and HOW it is done??


Great point! Better yet how many here could actually get on horse with out a step, let alone a colt!


----------



## Peggysue

nobody2121 said:


> Great point! Better yet how many here could actually get horse with out a step, let alone a colt!


OK I can no longer get on a horse without some type of "help" but I am working on it LOL years ago I could "swing" onto 16.3 handers without effort but not anymore. I know my limits now and stick to ground work and riding horses that the buck is out of that have issues LOL I honestly HATE starting babies and while I am starting two this year they are both older one has been ridden the other has been sat on already so hopefully I don't play Parelli off them. 

I have been to SIX Road to the Horse and honestly the only horses that MIGHT be demaged are Clinton's


----------



## nobody2121

Peggysue said:


> OK I can no longer get on a horse without some type of "help" but I am working on it LOL years ago I could "swing" onto 16.3 handers without effort but not anymore. I know my limits now and stick to ground work and riding horses that the buck is out of that have issues LOL I honestly HATE starting babies and while I am starting two this year they are both older one has been ridden the other has been sat on already so hopefully I don't play Parelli off them.
> 
> I have been to SIX Road to the Horse and honestly the only horses that MIGHT be demaged are Clinton's


thank you for your honesty, you seem to have a great realistic view of your abilties. good luck


----------



## Peggysue

as we age we have to learn our limits and I have learned mine the hard way 

more then a couple horses have said "Peggy meet dirt.""dirt meet Peggy" ****


----------



## TheLovedOne

nobody2121 said:


> Great point! Better yet how many here could actually get on horse with out a step, let alone a colt!


I get up on all my horses without a step. I have started about a dozen horses myself but not in three days. I think all competition comprises the horse or any other animal that humans use.

My horses range from 14.2 to 17hh.


----------



## TheLovedOne

I haven't met the dirt in quite sometime but a few years ago I fell off. Luckily I was sore for only about a week. I kinda got spooked off by one of my warmbloods who enjoys jumping 5' in the air when he gets scared. LOL. I've got another couple to start this year and then next year one more but then that'll be it - maybe.

Finishing a horse is no harder than starting. In fact, I believe that the most important thing is in the start. It is the starting that makes the finishing easier.


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## nobody2121

TheLovedOne said:


> I get up on all my horses without a step. I have started about a dozen horses myself but not in three days. I think all competition comprises the horse or any other animal that humans use.
> 
> My horses range from 14.2 to 17hh.


A lot of truth to what you are saying. Although I know there are certain people that have not been on a colt for long time, and you bet the start is important and super difficult to get done right. 
Good luck to you!


----------



## mom2pride

nobody2121 said:


> Great point! Better yet how many here could actually get on horse with out a step, let alone a colt!


 
I have started many colts, and retrained even more problem horses...retraining is by far much more difficult than training an unbroken and unsoured mind, because you've got ingrained bad habits, and alot of fears as well, often times, that take some time to get through. I spend alot of time on ground work, because I do not like to get planted in the dirt; if there are issues on the ground, there will likely be issues undersaddle, so I will not step up until those are resolved...and thus, have not gotten bucked off in, well...I don't remember the last time I actually got bucked off a horse. 

I can get on without a step, however, I also train every horse and colt to walk up to a mounting block (or whatever I choose), so that they are trained both ways. I do have back and other joint problems so with taller horses mounting with a block is just safer for me in the long run, and I train with that in mind.


----------



## Peggysue

Nobody I know alot of instructors or can't ride worth a lick but their students sure clean up in the ring...judging and being able to read a horse have NOTHING to do with being able to ride. I am not sure what your point is or who you are "after" but it honestly is offending to me. If you have a problem with somebody take it private

My last fall off was just that I was on a problem horse and for some silly reason thoought it was a good idea to drop my riens and answer my phone and he told me different. The one before that my mare spook and as I was straighten saddle got hit in nose by bee so she went the other way OUCH that one hurt.


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## nobody2121

mom2pride said:


> I have started many colts, and retrained even more problem horses...retraining is by far much more difficult than training an unbroken and unsoured mind, because you've got ingrained bad habits, and alot of fears as well, often times, that take some time to get through. I spend alot of time on ground work, because I do not like to get planted in the dirt; if there are issues on the ground, there will likely be issues undersaddle, so I will not step up until those are resolved...and thus, have not gotten bucked off in, well...I don't remember the last time I actually got bucked off a horse.
> 
> I can get on without a step, however, I also train every horse and colt to walk up to a mounting block (or whatever I choose), so that they are trained both ways. I do have back and other joint problems so with taller horses mounting with a block is just safer for me in the long run, and I train with that in mind.


Good work! how many people where at the Road to the Horse? Stay on top!


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## franknbeans

As far as mounting from the ground...I agree with Mom2Pride. Horses should be able to stand to be mounted either from the ground or a block. If mounting from the gound is your test for a good horse or rider, you are sad. Mounting from the ground is not so good for the horses back over time, and I would think that is especially true given the increased size of todays population.

I do not start my own horses, have no desire to. That does NOT make me any better or worse rider. Perhaps just smarter for knowing my limits. The ground gets harder as we age, and we tend to not bounce so well when we hit it.

Oh-and I was AT the RTTH, just FYI. I found it amazing, and, just FYI, it is a 3 day event, but the colt starting is really only 2 days. I find it amazing that you actually said you would put your colts to cows after 3 days? Really? You would expect that? Hmmm.


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## franknbeans

nobody2121 said:


> to start, just menas to begin, the first steps. that is how "the road to the Horse" was set up. It was not set up to show a finished Bridle Horse. And most people do not have the abilties to do what the people in the competition are doing, they would get hurt. *Can not think of a horse that I have started that I would not want to gather cattle on the 3rd day!*


Just in case you don;t remember saying this......:wink:


----------



## nobody2121

franknbeans said:


> Just in case you don;t remember saying this......:wink:


Sorry the gathering cattle on the 3rd day was not my idea, I was riding with a guy named Ray, it was his idea.
Hope you enjoyed your time at the show and good luck on your horses!


----------



## kitten_Val

Vidaloco said:


> I just came in to see who won. Glad to see CC triumphant especially after his accident back in '06.


What happened back then?


----------



## Walkamile

kitten_Val said:


> What happened back then?


KV, if memory serves me, he was injured while working alone on horseback removing a dead limb from a tree. I believe the horse "lost composure" and Chris hit the ground and his thigh was cut from the wood. He almost bled to death. Wish memory could give better details, but that is the gist of it.


----------



## kitten_Val

Walkamile said:


> KV, if memory serves me, he was injured while working alone on horseback removing a dead limb from a tree. I believe the horse "lost composure" and Chris hit the ground and his thigh was cut from the wood. He almost bled to death. Wish memory could give better details, but that is the gist of it.


Wow! That's very scary!


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## TheLovedOne

Note to self: Never remove a dead limb from a tree whilst on top of a horse


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## nobody2121

nrhareiner said:


> Yes TRTH is sad. *A play for shameless promotion by the participants *and a money maker for the promoters.
> 
> What is really sad is that people will not call it what it is. Entertainment.


Stacy Westfall and the others deserve a little better than that!


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## kitten_Val

TheLovedOne said:


> Note to self: Never remove a dead limb from a tree whilst on top of a horse


Actually my local group does trail clearing while on top of the horse all the time. You can move faster this way (and reach higher). But yes, horse has to be trained to be OK with the tools, sounds, etc. I never tried it (yet), but I'm very clumsy with the tools even on ground.


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## Walkamile

Like you KV, I do alot of "pruning" from horse back. I've had some branches come down on top of me and T, but she has never budged. But, when I read about what happened to Chris, it was a reminder to me that this could happen to anyone. So, I'm a bit more "choosy" about what I take down from horse back now.


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## Peggysue

Sassy will stand for me to prune from here small stuff...I leave the heavy stuff to hubby 

I will find out this year how Moosa and Duke do (wish us luck) 

There is ALOT of learning that can be done at RTTH not only by watching but it introduces you to new methods and ideas. If it teaches 10% of the people ther that you don't have to be rough and BUCK a horse out then it is doing good.


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## TheLovedOne

I find it hard to believe that anyone will change what they are doing with their horses because of RTTH.


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## nrhareiner

nobody2121 said:


> Stacy Westfall and the others deserve a little better than that!



Why? I like Stacy she is a very very nice person easy to talk to. I have shown or at least my horses have shown against her many times. Love to watch her work a horse.

However what was she doing back when she won? She was releasing a set of training DVDs and was trying to get a bigger audience. So yes it was promotion. Shameless might not be the best word to describe it and I will take that part back but that is what this is. Promotion.

It is no different then when a music group/singer goes out on tour. The tour is not to make money and does not, 98% of all tours loose money. It is to promote their up coming release. Plan and simple. Promotion. It is needed but lets not kid our selves into thinking it is anything more. Promotion for the people doing it and a money maker for the promoter as they are typically the only ones who make any money doing things like this.


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## nrhareiner

TheLovedOne said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone will change what they are doing with their horses because of RTTH.


I agree. The only thing I think you will see is that the people who do not really know any better will think that they can send a horse to a trainer and get a 30 day wonder horse back. It will give people an unrealistic perception of what it takes to get a good solid finished horse.


----------



## Peggysue

Like I said when you go sit and watch you would be amazed ... the only person promoting or pushing themselves was PP. The other guys were quiet working with thier horses...although CA had the biggest booth there and comments were made about how SMALL CC's booth was and how non pushy his people were... when you walked NEAR CA's or PP"s booth you were basically mugged by someboyd pushing stuff on you ... at CC's they asked if you needed help after you looked a bit and if you said no they walked away 

I think those talking against it need to either borrow or buy DVD's or tickets and watch to see what is actually being said and going on


----------



## Peggysue

and I have talked to people who have changed their ways since going. They went expecting a bucking out and found the "light" LOL


----------



## TheLovedOne

nrhareiner said:


> I agree. The only thing I think you will see is that the people who do not really know any better will think that they can send a horse to a trainer and get a 30 day wonder horse back. It will give people an unrealistic perception of what it takes to get a good solid finished horse.


Absolutely. I hate that when people expect that of someone and what it makes people do to horses.

I also think that the RTTH is a promotional event. Again the purse demonstrates that - 10k is really not very much.


----------



## nrhareiner

You do not have to go to see the promotion. Heck they are getting it right now. Over the internet on Youtube and so on. It is not just that one day. It was all the promotion leading up to it and now after it.

Again not a good or bad thing. It is what it is. Just call it like it is. 

I have yet to figured out why horse owners seem to think that if they do not train their own horse and do it all by them selves that it some how makes them of a horse person human being or have less of a connection with their horse. 

When your truck brakes down or needs maintenance is there any shame in taking it to a mechanic? Going to a doc when you are sick? Why are horse so much different??


----------



## mom2pride

nrhareiner said:


> I agree. The only thing I think you will see is that the people who do not really know any better will think that they can send a horse to a trainer and get a 30 day wonder horse back. It will give people an unrealistic perception of what it takes to get a good solid finished horse.


I went with some 'green' type friends and do not get the impression that they thought this at all. Nor do I get that impression from most other people I talked to on the way home from the event. Also the trainers themselves said in some way or other that this was not "the" way they would normally train a colt, and that most of their work would be very condensed. It is just to give the audience an idea of what other types of training styles there are out there; and this year's training styles were very very different from each other, but also got the job done, as well. I have trained horses for years, and have never promised an owner that 30 days is enough on any horse; it always depends on the horse, how much has already been done with it, how much I might have to 'undo', etc...so that is something I think we do agree on in a sense. Are there those that probably do walk away feeling like "OMG I can accomplish a ton in 3 days???!!!" sure, but I don't think that a majority of the audience walked away feeling like that, especially with all the clinics the clinicians gave prior to the event itself.


----------



## mom2pride

nobody2121 said:


> Good work! how many people where at the Road to the Horse? Stay on top!


Well they had bleachers set up behind the actual seating areas, and there were literally people everywhere in the stadium...my rough geuss is between 8-9000...maybe more...I'm not really sure, but it was a FULL house for sure!!! It was my first time actually being AT RTTH and I will say that it was an amazing experience; for some reason every time I see Chris Cox ride and teach I get goose bumps...he is a true horseman, and his win was dually deserved. I do use alot of CA's methods as well, because they do make sense, when you're not in a 'hurry' persay...but after RTTH I really appreciate CC even more.

Oh and my friends and I were totally front row seating, it was awesome!! We could have touched the horses as they went by if we wanted!


----------



## Peggysue

who has been to one? besides mom, Frank and I?


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## kitten_Val

I believe LovedOne is on list too.

Definitely not me - too far, too cold (and no time). :lol:


----------



## TheLovedOne

nrhareiner said:


> I have yet to figured out why horse owners seem to think that if they do not train their own horse and do it all by them selves that it some how makes them of a horse person human being or have less of a connection with their horse. When your truck brakes down or needs maintenance is there any shame in taking it to a mechanic? Going to a doc when you are sick? Why are horse so much different??


It may be true that some people think that - I don't know. But what I do know is that there are very few trainers out there that are actually qualified and will do a good job. If you can find one then you're lucky. See people call themselves professionals and have no credentials. Whereas you go to the MD there are laws about practicing medicine and there are credentials for mechanics too. I know too many people that have gotten bad service and had the professionals put them into really unsafe situations. It would be great for the consumer if there was some way to know if someone was qualified. All those associations like AQHA, CHA, CEF etc do little and there is such variation amongst the professional body that it discredits itself. At the end of the day it is always buyer beware and I think that people walk away with a lot of beware. 

Just came back in for a quick bite and then it's back out to back another horse


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## Peggysue

KV I think she said earlier she hadn't been at all but I could be mistaken


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## mom2pride

In the same breath I have encountered 'qualified' trainers who have ruined good horses...so to me I could care less about 'qualification'...I want to see someone work with a horse; see if he can 'walk his talk' per say. If he doesn't handle the horse how I would personally want to handle him, there is no way he will train him for me. Now that's my opinion as a trainer. It's not about a certificate, it's about whether you can 'speak horse' persay... 

There's the same kind of 'argument' in the dog grooming world; I'm not a certified groomer, but the groomer who I took the place of at the current shop I work at was a certified master groomer, and the owners showed me photos of his work...his work was what I would expect out of a beginning groomer, NOT someone who has been through the testing to become certified. It is a wonder the owner's of the shop had lost so many clients before he left; he also had crummy people skills. So my point is, certification IS NOT always what it's cracked up to be...anyone can pass a set of tests on a particular set of days, but that does not give you any idea of how he will be as a everyday person at his job, period.


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## nrhareiner

mom2pride said:


> In the same breath I have encountered 'qualified' trainers who have ruined good horses...so to me I could care less about 'qualification'...I want to see someone work with a horse; see if he can 'walk his talk' per say. If he doesn't handle the horse how I would personally want to handle him, there is no way he will train him for me. Now that's my opinion as a trainer. It's not about a certificate, it's about whether you can 'speak horse' persay...
> 
> There's the same kind of 'argument' in the dog grooming world; I'm not a certified groomer, but the groomer who I took the place of at the current shop I work at was a certified master groomer, and the owners showed me photos of his work...his work was what I would expect out of a beginning groomer, NOT someone who has been through the testing to become certified. It is a wonder the owner's of the shop had lost so many clients before he left; he also had crummy people skills. So my point is, certification IS NOT always what it's cracked up to be...anyone can pass a set of tests on a particular set of days, but that does not give you any idea of how he will be as a everyday person at his job, period.


I very much agree with this. I have seen it many times even on forums. People take horses to the trainer yet they never check up on the horse never take lessons on their horse at the trainers. They do not do their research on the trainer. 

You know what they call the person who graduated last in medical school?? Doctor.


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## Vidaloco

Thanks for the clarifications on CC everyone. Yes, it was a tree limb v. CC and the tree limb won. I'd forgotten he had won several times since then. I have never been, and have only seen smidgens of it on TV. My attention span isn't long enough to sit through a dvd set or even a live demonstration from a trainer, much less sit through 3 days of it :lol: I have the patience of Job when it comes to a horse but only that of a rodeo bull when it comes to people these days :wink:


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## mom2pride

nrhareiner said:


> I very much agree with this. I have seen it many times even on forums. People take horses to the trainer yet they never check up on the horse never take lessons on their horse at the trainers. They do not do their research on the trainer.
> 
> You know what they call the person who graduated last in medical school?? Doctor.


I do not understand that at all; when owners simply drop a horse off at a trainer's place. I refuse to take on a horse if the owner will not take active part in his training once I've gotten the horse going; I want to ensure the horse and rider are going to actually KNOW how to work together before they go home. I think that is a major pitfall with alot of training facilities, is that they take on horses, train them for so many days, months, whatever, and then simply send them home; the owners don't have a clue how the horse has been handled, and so winds up right back where they started, and blames the trainer. In part, that is true, but on the other hand, the owner needs to be a part of the training process...at the least asking questions, and learning how to handle the horse once the trainer feels they are ready for it.


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## nrhareiner

mom2pride said:


> I do not understand that at all; when owners simply drop a horse off at a trainer's place. I refuse to take on a horse if the owner will not take active part in his training once I've gotten the horse going; I want to ensure the horse and rider are going to actually KNOW how to work together before they go home. I think that is a major pitfall with alot of training facilities, is that they take on horses, train them for so many days, months, whatever, and then simply send them home; the owners don't have a clue how the horse has been handled, and so winds up right back where they started, and blames the trainer. In part, that is true, but on the other hand, the owner needs to be a part of the training process...at the least asking questions, and learning how to handle the horse once the trainer feels they are ready for it.



You see it on a lot of different forums and even with trainers I know. On one forum there was one person who took a couple horses to a train one died supportable and one came home really thin. In about 8 months the owner never was to see the horse one time and this was a trainer they had never used before. Not even sure they went to see the trainer before hand. This type thing is more common then anyone thinks. I know there are horses at my trainer whos owners do not come around. I know that once I was comfortable with my trainer I did not go as often as I did at first. However I have used him for 5-6 years now.


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## Cobalt

Peggysue said:


> who has been to one? besides mom, Frank and I?


One what? RTTH? I've been to the last 2.


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## Cobalt

Peggysue said:


> Like I said when you go sit and watch you would be amazed ... the only person promoting or pushing themselves was PP. The other guys were quiet working with thier horses...although CA had the biggest booth there and comments were made about how SMALL CC's booth was and how non pushy his people were... when you walked NEAR CA's or PP"s booth you were basically mugged by someboyd pushing stuff on you ... at CC's they asked if you needed help after you looked a bit and if you said no they walked away
> 
> I think those talking against it need to either borrow or buy DVD's or tickets and watch to see what is actually being said and going on


I thought there was a fair amount of that going on from CA too. He came down to the ring with his "kit" at one point during a demo and as he was going to give it away, it gave him an opportunity to talk about what was inside. I walked through all 3 of their booths, and didn't get pestered by anyone at any of their booths. I simply noted the fact that Parelli and Cox had small booths and CA had the back 1/4 of the vendor tent. 

After going to the one before, I felt sad that this event turned so ugly with all the catty comments. I saw Cameron, McNabb, and Winters last year and the sportsmanship was impressive. Nobody was being openly critical and the fans weren't so hotly divided.

Quick change of subject. We asked Tootie if it was going to be in Murfreesboro again next year and she just smiled and gave some shrug kind of answer. I get the feeling that it won't be there again. Any thoughts as to where else they may take it? 

I don't think I'm interested in going again if its going to be such a hotly divided group. I enjoyed last year much, much more.


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## Peggysue

I don't know where she would take it but if it's drivable I will be there  

I didn't watch any of the demos except Fri Night I don't go for them after having gone six years unless there is somebody I haven't seen I don't go... I did go Fri Night to see PP 

She had it in Franklin one year then it went back to Murphyfreesboro so I have no clue

Tootie doesn't give away many clues although I did catch a rumor that it would be three reining types trainers next year one being Mike Majors(Project Cowboy winner)


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## Cobalt

That's me. I'm not really willing to fly anywhere, so as long as its drivable I'll go again. 

I thought the demo's were actually kind of boring. Hate to say it, but I did. I enjoyed watching PP by himself with the 3 horses, but got tired of seeing him with his students. I liked watching Chris ride English, too. My biggest peave in watching CA is listening to him. He talks a hundred miles an hour and his, "okays" and his always phrasing everything in the form of a question drives me uber nuts!! PP mumbled most of the time. Chris I could at least understand!

I also didn't like how there was NO down time this year. The year before we had time to go to Nashville and have a good time. THey didn't even pick their horses until late Saturday afternoon. I hope they fix that next time. They should get it started sooner and not drag it out for so long next time!


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## Peggysue

Cobalt said:


> That's me. I'm not really willing to fly anywhere, so as long as its drivable I'll go again.
> 
> I thought the demo's were actually kind of boring. Hate to say it, but I did. I enjoyed watching PP by himself with the 3 horses, but got tired of seeing him with his students. I liked watching Chris ride English, too. My biggest peave in watching CA is listening to him. He talks a hundred miles an hour and his, "okays" and his always phrasing everything in the form of a question drives me uber nuts!! PP mumbled most of the time. Chris I could at least understand!
> 
> I also didn't like how there was NO down time this year. The year before we had time to go to Nashville and have a good time. THey didn't even pick their horses until late Saturday afternoon. I hope they fix that next time. They should get it started sooner and not drag it out for so long next time!


I wish they would do one trainer at a time for the time frames.. do the demos ONCE pick the horses and set up ONE round pen ... 

I actually joked about going to jail this year. This year was "hotter" then normal, the last time I remember it getting like that was in 07 I think when it was Chris, Stacy and Clinton. Clinton and Pat's "followers" are very "my trainer does no wrong while" I do my share of mouthing that is nothing new I do it every year LOL just me but I don't mouth people not in my group so I will make comments to my friends or people WITH me but not others... the year John Lyons was there I was appalled that his horse, Preacher, was noticably lame during his demo. 

The horse pick was scheaduled for Fri and they changed it at last minute for all those people who couldnt' get there until Sat afternoon which is kinda the "normal" sheadule.


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## Peggysue

Where were you sitting this time?? I was section 144 row F I know the people in 145 thought I was nuts Fri night when I thought they were in my seats and it was ME in the wrong section


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## mom2pride

We weren't TOO far away from each other Peggysue...my friends and I were in 126 B


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## Peggysue

I wish I would have thought to post on here before I left then we all could have met up!!! I stay at the Baymont every year


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## mom2pride

As far as the heated camps...I really do believe it was a result of "who" the trainers were...I am not sure it would really get that heated again unless there were three of that caliber again. 

I personally did go as a Clinton fan, but I also really loved Chris before too, but I was also open to Pat as well...they are all very successful, there is no doubt about that, although I was disappointed to see Pat not actually ride more in his demos, and instead having his students ride...I wanted to see HIM ride, not his students, although the girl with the chestnut horse really stood out to me as an outstanding horsewoman, she is going to go far, regardless of the program style she chooses. I like Clinton because I've been to a few of his clinics and he makes things so easy to understand, because he breaks it down step by step, which helps both horse and handler "get it". Chris, well, he's just plain a good horseman from what I've seen...I haven't been to an actual clinic by him (just demos and short seminar thingies at horse expos), but I would really like to go to one at some point. He also seems to make things pretty easy to understand. 

Anyway, I was not disappointed AT ALL when Chris won...he deserved the win.


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## mom2pride

I am planning on going again next year...hoping to bring some other friends this time around...

I don't think Tootie would move it "too far" from where it's at now, since it's relatively central for everyone...there were people on our flights that came from CA! And I met several folks who were from all the way over on the east coast.


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## Peggysue

Clinton is too agressive for my style... I like Chris quiet easy ways and no extra equipment needed just you, your horse, a rope halter and 12' lead

BTW Chris is the only one who does a BUCKING horse on his tour stops and I can vounce he doesn't TOUCH the horses besides to look at them before they walk in the arena... I did the BRC part Dec of 09 and my friend had the bucking horse

hopefully this link works 
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/album.php?aid=178896&id=601510615


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## mom2pride

For horses that are extremely aggressive and pushy Clinton's methods work really well...I've used a few of them on horses I've retrained, and none of them were fearful of me, I guess it's like any other method, in that you need to know how much pressure is enough to get what you are asking for and then back off. His philosophy of getting the horse's feet to move is good as well, and I have worked through many a sticky situation without me, horse, or bystanders getting hurt, just by getting the horse to move around a bit, rather than 'focus' on something he doesn't like. 

However, in a lot of ways, I really train alot more like Chris...Halter and lead...I only use a stick and string if absolutely necessary for my own safety. And as soon as I don't need it, I leave it aside; I am of the side that prefers to use as little equipment as I have to to get the job done as well, and that's how I've been since I was younger, and still learning the whole 'NH' thing.


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## Peggysue

IMO people take CA's stuff too far just like PP's do as well 

But I do use a bit of Clinton's stuff for training I like my stick and string for those back legs LOL I don't strike the ground if I am swing that whip it means MOVE NOW. I do think he pushed his horse this year too long too hard the first day... the second day I was watchig PP trying to figure him out LOL

I can protect myself pretty well with that long lead


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## Cobalt

Peggysue said:


> Where were you sitting this time?? I was section 144 row F I know the people in 145 thought I was nuts Fri night when I thought they were in my seats and it was ME in the wrong section


I was in the front row in section 139. I had great seats...although I couldn't see CC on day 2 very well which really griped me!


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## mom2pride

Peggysue said:


> IMO people take CA's stuff too far just like PP's do as well
> 
> But I do use a bit of Clinton's stuff for training I like my stick and string for those back legs LOL I don't strike the ground if I am swing that whip it means MOVE NOW. I do think he pushed his horse this year too long too hard the first day... the second day I was watchig PP trying to figure him out LOL
> 
> I can protect myself pretty well with that long lead


Again, it's one of those things that you have to be really careful 'how far you fall' so to speak...Lol! I don't adhere to any one trainer's methods, because I kind of have trained long enough that I have some of my own style...which is alot more like Cox than Anderson, if you'd like a 'comparison'. 

I do have a friend who is totally into CA...and I like him, yes, especially for the ground work stuff, but I prefer to pick and choose alot of stuff from alot of different trainers, rather than say, it's all about "that" guy, or "that" guy, etc...all good trainers have something to offer.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Anyone else find it absolutely pathetic that the videos of Parelli being bucked off has been removed based on "copyright infringement" on behalf of RTTH, along with any other trace of ANY video from 2011? Just seems a little ironic.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Oh sorry mom2pride, I should have been more specific. The video of Parelli being bucked off has been removed based on "copyright infringement" on behalf of RTTH. Along with any other trace of ANY video from 2011. Just seems a little ironic.


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## Peggysue

I knew it would happen as soon as it turned up on the RTTH FB page ... there are stills of it on the Judges speak slide show actually frame by frame good shots showing he held on until last minute 

Not only the 2011 got taen down but all of mine from the year John Lyons was there as well

CObalt this is the first year in 4 years I haven't been front row I hate that you can't see ALL the pens that there always seems to be ONE that you can't see. THere really isn't a bad seat in that place though unless you are next to the support beams


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## franknbeans

Well, I agree the "heated" atmosphere was because of who was there. Just look at how heated the PP threads here get! Seems to follow him like a magnet.

I was in general admission-we totally missed the sales of the assigned seating somehow, but it was ok. The first day we were actually on the bleachers right when you came in the door-horrible with the poles, but sat behinf Mike Majors Mother-in-law, and goet to meet his family, so that was a bonus. Totally nice people. After that, we sat on the bleachers at the end, which was perfect. You could see and hear really well. It was close to the food and bathrooms too! lol

My only compliant was all the "fluff". I enjoyed the demos by all 3 of them, but absolutely HATED Tomas. I would rather watch paint dry, and as I have said before, I could not even watch him when he had the gray horse hopping on its knees. I personally thought that was cruel and pointless. And to have to watch him over and over.....UGH! 

I have no idea if we will go next year, I doubt that the same group will, for sure. It will all depend on who and what it is. If they make it 3 days again, I would hope they would somehow allow more of that extra time for the actual event and not all the filler crap they had. JMHO.:wink:


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## kitten_Val

So when do they announce who compete next year? I'd may be even go this year, but neither of my friends are interested and I don't feel like going myself...


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## Peggysue

normally about the first of April they announce who it is for the following year then in June the tickets go onsale....I check the site once a week so I will let everybody know LOL 

Iactually have more fun when I don't have a favorite going in, although I get teary eyed watching Chris everytime and wouldn't' have missed this years for nothing


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## nobody2121

was watching some video, amazed how well they can get the braces out of their horse on the ground!


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## kitten_Val

franknbeans said:


> My only compliant was all the "fluff". I enjoyed the demos by all 3 of them, but absolutely HATED Tomas. I would rather watch paint dry, and as I have said before, I could not even watch him when he had the gray horse hopping on its knees. I personally thought that was cruel and pointless. And to have to watch him over and over.....UGH!


Who's Tomas may I ask?


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## franknbeans

Tomas is this guy. Tomas Garcilazo - The Charro - Rope Artist - Rodeo Performer

He did a total of 5 performances during the 3 days.


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## kitten_Val

franknbeans said:


> Tomas is this guy. Tomas Garcilazo - The Charro - Rope Artist - Rodeo Performer
> 
> He did a total of 5 performances during the 3 days.


Oh, I see. Thanks, frank!


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## Peggysue

I watched him once and refused to sit thur it again!! He was truely offensive to me


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## franknbeans

^^ agree totally Peggysue! 

Judging from the groans of the crowd when he appeared, I would guess we are not alone. Then when we thought he was done.....time after time....and they opened the gate, but he did not leave.......UGH!


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## Peggysue

that poor Pali was LAME and they just kept using it!!!


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## Peggysue

THere is a GREAT video on the Road to the Horse Facebook page with Chris talking about Road to the Horse


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## mom2pride

franknbeans said:


> My only compliant was all the "fluff". I enjoyed the demos by all 3 of them, but absolutely HATED Tomas. I would rather watch paint dry, and as I have said before, I could not even watch him when he had the gray horse hopping on its knees. I personally thought that was cruel and pointless. And to have to watch him over and over.....UGH! .:wink:


They need to bring someone like Tommy Turvey...now THAT'S entertainment!!! I've seen Tommy so many times and NEVER get tired of him and his horses!!! His "dressage spoof" is soooooooo funny!


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## Peggysue

Mom you should suggest it to Tootie she is very open to ideas and such ...


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## mom2pride

Peggysue said:


> Mom you should suggest it to Tootie she is very open to ideas and such ...


Hmmm...that's a good idea...


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## Cobalt

Peggysue said:


> I watched him once and refused to sit thur it again!! He was truely offensive to me


I think what bothered me the most watching that horse on its knees was that he took that breathtaking horse and completely took its dignity away from it. It was hard for me to watch as well. Not to mention boring. THe one armed bandit was MUCH more entertaining!!


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## Peggysue

Cobalt said:


> I think what bothered me the most watching that horse on its knees was that he took that breathtaking horse and completely took its dignity away from it. It was hard for me to watch as well. Not to mention boring. THe one armed bandit was MUCH more entertaining!!


 
I agree!!! I love the One Armed Bandit and I have seen him like 4 or 5 times now and I still enjoy him even KNOWING what he is gonna do 

I really enjoyed the Cowgirl Chicks too


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