# 5yo TB Racemare, a history



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hard to believe its the same horse - no sign of that head on the floor any more which I'm pleased to see because I was never convinced it was her 'natural' way of going


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Is she named yet LTG? I'd love to follow her.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Me too.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Me three. 

It has been fun to follow her progress since you first introduced her to us. If I recall correctly, you bred her? You must be very proud.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

I was a little concerned about naming her, but I suppose it's ok, she's called Regal Empress.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

updownrider said:


> Me three.
> 
> It has been fun to follow her progress since you first introduced her to us. If I recall correctly, you bred her? You must be very proud.


Thanks! .. Yeah we bred her, and we bred her dam, and we got her grandam as a young filly, so we've had lots of the family and know all their history, personalities, conformations (which has been a big help to know which ones to keep and continue the line) - it's been a good family and this one always stood out as having the stamp of it so that's why she was never offered for sale. Whatever she does as a racemare will be a bonus as she'll hopefully make a beautiful broodmare. There are other fillies, possibly better racemares, but we just loved this one for breeding eventually.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Of course, any conformation observations on her latest photo are very welcome! .. esp her hind quarter (it is obv quite steep), but just fyi in case of wondering, her L-S joint is just behind her point of hip as it shows, so a good way in front of the peak of croup ... which is something I'm still really interested in, 

why I was so interested in the amazing racehorse Douvan with the incredibly steep croup 
(thread here, http://www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/tb-racehorse-comments-croup-552010/)


Thanks, Liam.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Just wondering what kind of groundwork were you doing with her?


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks LTG! I've added her to my tracker. Best of luck with her, I look forward to seeing plenty of her.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> Just wondering what kind of groundwork were you doing with her?


Nothing fancy. Trot and Canter in the sand-ring, Long-Reins in the field. Horse-Walker sometimes, Warm up, cool down.

Really more for the mental side than anything, though we did build her canter endurance quite a bit also. But more just to get her used to working each day and being very trainable. 

Now she's in full training and getting ready to race the real fitness work is being done, She's doing hill-gallops and all the tough stuff that can be thrown at her !

But prior to that it was just to get her head right so she'd take to the tough work. 

Now she's just happy to do her daily routine, get her feed etc... it's what she's used to. And she'll get her rest and she knows that, so she's not nervous / worried.

Education first / Fitness-work second. I don't like the idea of putting a horse in training without them knowing a) It's not forever, b) She'll get a nice rest, c) It's expected of her.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

This is a wonderful update. I love following the progress of TBs in training, will be curious to keep up with her and see how she does now and in the future!


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Hi LTG, 

Noticed she is 1st reserve, fingers crossed she makes it in.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

she really IS Regal! splendid example of a racehorse.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Two non runners LTG, Wishing you the very best of luck!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Please video if it happens


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Ah ! .. yes she got in, but ran very green.

The plan was to sit her in 4th / 5th but she started with a slight lead and the jockey couldn't get her back, get any cover, and she went away from the pack, racing from the drop of the flag - never switched off. 

But I did like the way she was aggressive in attacking the race, and in terms of all the prelims she did get buzzy but didn't look to hide - went straight out on her own and the best of her family have been like that. 

She'll have learned a tonne from the race, mentally. (and probably physically it will bring her along also, can't help but).

BTW, here's the Timeform comments for the first race of her her full-brother in time won the Irish Grand National,

" shaped much better than the distance beaten, soon pulling his way into a prominent position and still second under 3f out only to wilt once in line for home; he's bound to win races over jumps judged on pedigree"

And that's basically exactly what R-E did !! .. (and her mother before .. ) ) funny how these things repeat themselves.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

More to the point is the technical aspect of her gallop - there was some very interesting discussion about it and I made a video that I was going to post to a different thread, but seeing how this one is live I'll post it here; This is the race today, she's in front here with the Dark Green Jacket and Red Cap.

https://vimeo.com/126644715

Any comments on her movement / body shape very much appreciated.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

The key points were

1) Possible imbalance between a strong front end and weaker hind.

2) Running too heavy on the forefoot

3) Not engaging her hindquarters, not enough 'collection' with each stride

4) Running with her head too low



But I should say that she's still only a baby in training terms - having been backed only 8 months ago (though she had done a lot of ground-work before then). So it's not really surprising to me that she'd have to strengthen up her stabilisers before carrying a jockey AND keeping perfect form.

Please let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Liam.

Btw if you mention you like my racing silks I'll be very very happy !!! A lot of thought went into designing them and I think they look great.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I know nothing about racing, so take these questions with a sense of humor:

is it normal in Ireland to have a racetrack that is not flat (has slight udulations)

is it still an oval? how big is (long) it?

how do they keep the grass from getting torn to shreds if several races a day are ridden on it?

is it normal to have such a huge group, all bunched like that?

was that a normal race? I mean, she seemed to be going not all out, like I've seen in other races.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> I know nothing about racing, so take these questions with a sense of humor:
> 
> is it normal in Ireland to have a racetrack that is not flat (has slight udulations)
> 
> ...



Yes - undulations, hills, etc.. meant to test a horse's balance as well as speed / stamina. (If you want a laugh have a look at Epsom where the Derby is raced in England .. you basically couldn't get a more random looking course if you let a child draw it out ! They go left, then right, then left, then around a corner, then a short straight, then another very sharp corner, and then ... they have a home straight - just youtube one of the past Derbies.

Not quite oval, but roughly. The tracks in Ire / Eng are all different, some are just straight.

The ground does deteriorate a bit as the day goes on, but there are several different tracks to be used, and by shifting the fencing you can open a fresh patch of turf.

Kinda normal to be bunched up like that - esp at the start of a race - here we race a lot differently, with the group going slowly and getting faster - nothing here goes 'wire-to-wire' and we don't use early speed.

Yes that was a normal race, a v good race actually, but it was early and they only go flat out nearer the end.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I didn't think her head looked too low in that clip but maybe she dropped it as she went along
She is a bit heavy in front/light behind but not awful and really at this point in her racing career only to be expected that she's going to be a little unbalanced because its all a lot for her to take in
She is certainly a bold one and looked to have no qualms at all about taking up the lead from the start even thought she should have held back a bit that's a good sign because it means she'll not worry about pushing to the front and away from the crowd when she learns to listen to her jockey and conserve her energy until asked to go on


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I didn't think her head looked too low in that clip but maybe she dropped it as she went along
> She is a bit heavy in front/light behind but not awful and really at this point in her racing career only to be expected that she's going to be a little unbalanced because its all a lot for her to take in
> She is certainly a bold one and looked to have no qualms at all about taking up the lead from the start even thought she should have held back a bit that's a good sign because it means she'll not worry about pushing to the front and away from the crowd when she learns to listen to her jockey and conserve her energy until asked to go on


Yeah - she actually did her fastest work going away from the pack about half-way around, when she was going uphill!! .. it was after that she came back to them - The ground was also slow and testing which certainly didn't help her make it 'wire-to-wire' - nearly all of the good finishers had a few races under them which would help them stamina-wise. She's also just better on good ground. 

But, yes, I agree completely with your thinking - it was very bold of her to go on and try stamp her mark on the race - she will have enjoyed it which is very important I think.

When she goes next she might start off much more slowly and learn to settle and get cover.

She did need that race for fitness, and she didn't get to show it - but she has actually shown good speed on the gallops. In time she'll get the stamina, and the mindset to show it.

Thanks Jaydee. I thought her shape was good, and she may just need a touch more development behind, but it's coming along. She's quite big and raw still compared to the very light, racey types who just come forward very quickly. 

Next couple of races will be very interesting.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'll be interested to see how she progresses, some more fittening work to build up her hind end muscles and get her coming back to the rider when asked and she'll hopefully have the staying power & control to go with her boldness


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

It has been too long since I have had anything to do with racing to add anything useful to this thread, but I'm going to hang out here and be a supportive and excited fan.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

updownrider said:


> It has been too long since I have had anything to do with racing to add anything useful to this thread, but I'm going to hang out here and be a supportive and excited fan.



Hopefully after the summer and the Flat season is over she'll be racing fairly regularly. From what she's shown on the gallops she could do pretty well,


In the meantime, she's coming home for a well-earned rest and I want to do some work with her also - and I hope some members can advise on exercises and techniques,

She has to be kept active for basic fitness and flexibility, and I'd like to incorporate some strengthening exercises in the areas I think she could use it: basically 

1) along her neck (to me it's still a little knife-like and it wouldn't hurt if it was stronger)

2) around the gluteals (above the tailhead, as marked, and down the backs of her thighs, again as marked). 

Anything else of interest I'd be delighted to hear, 

I guess this is kind of dressage-type work, which I'm very keen to learn about. 

I don't think I should sit on her at all, so anything that can be done on the ground while she's walking / trotting and just keeping active anyway is what I'm thinking, she is on 'rest' after all. Just, active rest, and maybe become more balanced. Also, I suppose, anything that worked her abdominals / helped her to collect better as she is still a little heavy on the forefoot,

Thanks.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think you should judge her conformation while she's racing fit - let her put some pounds on and then ask again because she'll look totally different.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I don't think you should judge her conformation while she's racing fit - let her put some pounds on and then ask again because she'll look totally different.


well yes, that's true, but it's her racing conformation that's important! 

I was quite surprised by how 'angular' she came to look when the weight was stripped, and I can't help but think if she muscled up in the right areas then she'd be better as a racehorse.

Her conformation is fine, she's very impressive 'in person', tall, strong, quick-looking ... long-striding but still 'neat'

but her neck is weak, a little, and she has a steep croup (how much that matters is debatable). I just have her now for 6 weeks and then she'll start back so it's an opportunity to do something if possible.

that's also the word I got back from the trainer and her assistant - specifically the neck, that it would come along with better riding and exercise. they didn't mention the croup or go into more detail but they did comment on her neck being a little weak.

she's home now, and happy with everything, she's very trainable so I think I could get her to do most anything. if anyone has any suggestions I'd love to hear them,

Thanks,

Liam.


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

That was a nice video, it was like all the horses were out for a happy little jog... I'm used to seeing the anti racing propaganda with horses getting beaten, and jockeys ending up with broken backs.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The steep croup you're stuck with because that's just how her skeleton is but the rather lean looking neck would look very different if she was carrying more weight as she'd then have a bigger crest/topline along it.
She also has some massive shoulder muscles and they're making the underside of the neck look thinner
I wonder if her shoulder muscles are more pronounced than they should be because she still has a tendency to pull herself along with her front end more than push herself forwards using her back end?


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

MaximasMommy said:


> That was a nice video, it was like all the horses were out for a happy little jog... I'm used to seeing the anti racing propaganda with horses getting beaten, and jockeys ending up with broken backs.


Thanks! .. they were a very expensive and talented crop - all fillies of course - and very much with an eye on the future. They're not restricted by age (like, getting them into 3yo classics) so they have time on their side.

I don't want to say anything bad about racing in the US; because I just don't know; but in Ire/GB at least, horse-welfare is very important and we have so much racing (in Ireland at least we have about 40 times more racehorses + races per head of population than in the US so you can't avoid the scrutiny that comes with something that's just a big part of the sporting culture, every day!)



jaydee said:


> The steep croup you're stuck with because that's just how her skeleton is but the rather lean looking neck would look very different if she was carrying more weight as she'd then have a bigger crest/topline along it.
> She also has some massive shoulder muscles and they're making the underside of the neck look thinner
> I wonder if her shoulder muscles are more pronounced than they should be because she still has a tendency to pull herself along with her front end more than push herself forwards using her back end?


It's a fair point, re: the croup and the skeleton - if you remember I posted a question of a horse with an extremely steep, almost convex croup, and he was very very fast - he won his race at Cheltenham in brilliant style I think he's second favourite for the Champion Hurdle.

but I just wonder about her glutes - are they hindered by a lack of attachment and if so could working on them make her more balanced, more efficient - it's maybe cutting hairs but she's worth the effort !


Her shoulders are massive, that's true ! .. and she's still learning to balance so the 'heavy-fore-foot' isn't a complete conformational trait. She started being ridden by a very experienced jockey / part-time show jumper and she improved really quickly, so definitely it's possible she could have perfect racing form with her neck as it is,

but again .. I just wonder if it was a little stronger, a little more muscled, ... ? 

She's delighted to be home now - in racing terms she's just a baby, and it was a great experience - she wasn't pushed nor trained hard, just educated. So, she seems to have enjoyed it all and that will stand her in good stead if she races 1/2/3 more seasons.


Any suggestions on what to do with her are very welcome - she might go in the horse-walker for a 1/2 hr or there's a swimming pool not far away that might be an idea. I'm reading atm about exercises to get her to work her 'core' by bringing her head low and around to get at a treat ... I don't think you ever stop learning.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I love that you want to make her a good riding horse and not just a racehorse
I think having someone ride her that's also show jumped is going to work well because they'll focus on getting her off her forehand and using her quarters
Be interesting to see photos of her again in a few months time


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

The final (!?) update to this hopefully informative thread, which I really enjoyed making and learning. Thanks to everyone for their comments.

We did a lot of hill-work, speed-work with her, and took her away to work on some of the best gallops in Europe. What we found is she really needs good ground. The weather in Ireland is terrible and racecourses are flooded, so we debated waiting for hopefully better ground but decided against.

She's 6yo, absolutely (to me!) looks the part and her pedigree is very strong, so she's very exciting as a broodmare and she'll be covered soon enough, and she can spend the rest of her life playing with her pals in the fields!

Just I would love any comments about where she could be improved as I'm looking at stallions and trying to think about what kind of horse to breed, and of course very importantly 

1) Not to 'double' and conformation flaws and

2) Have a sire who offsets any conformation flaws / areas of improvement.

I think in this photo taken this morning she's about the finished article as a racehorse, so that's the guide to take - I can post some stallions again if there's interest, it's a shortlist now.











I've learned so much from this forum, it's been brilliant, and any and all comments on the mare, especially where to improve her are very welcome.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

She's a really big boned mare now - what are you specifically looking at breeding - Flat or over fences?


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Definitely fences, 

She jumped brilliantly in her schooling and there's some v good steeplechasers in her family - a Champion Chase placed, an Arkle Novice Chase placed, an Irish National winner, a Scottish National placed,

But I think she could be dual-purpose for staying Flat races.

She's fully 16'2 now, her full-brother is over 17'

So, I think Milan will be a suitable sire, he's got v good chasers coming through and he's a beautiful horse with a lot of quality,


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I have no expertise to share, but simply want to say it's been exciting to see a discussion like this about a horse of this caliber. For a fan, it's a fascinating window into a world I'll never be part of. Thanks for sharing her with us.

The only thing I'll say is that this CAN'T be the end of the thread- we'll have to see the foal that results from whatever sire you choose!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

This is a lot of fun! Love seeing her progress and on the gallop!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I like Milan


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Thanks, do you think Milan will suit her?,

She has a lot of sturdinesss, strength and scope,

I'd like Milan to inject a bit more of a speed / 'racey' look, 

I feel like if I mated her to a like-for-like type it might come out a bit plain

Thoughts ?


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

E.g. a couple who are very strong for breeding chasers, but might leave the progeny a bit plain compared to Milan,

Shantou and Flemensirth (both by Alleged)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think - if I'm reading you correctly - that Milan would give you a better chance of getting the horse you seem to want out of her


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

What do you think about Malinas 
Malinas | Rathbarry Stud


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

I like Malinas, he's exciting, but I would categorise him in the solid type with Flemi and Shantou.

Being that my mare is already an outcross to Sadlers Wells and she's already solid and strong I'd like to cross her with a really sharp racehorse - Hence Milan, also Fame and Glory (no confo shots, but his progeny are beautiful and he was an amazing racehorse)

Milan just looks 'sharp', like he has lots of natural speed, the others are more like strong gallopers if you get me. 

Probably the best looking horse we bred from that family was an Oscar who was also really fast, and could gallop / stay. The Presentings / Flemis while actually more successful altogether never had the turn of foot (or made the money that Oscar did)


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Of Course I'll have to see what Horse and Hound says !!!







, when we sold that Oscar we needed a very determined English under bidder !!







Oscar was ranked #1 by H&G at the time...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

He is a solid horse - but elegant with it and a lovely head and neck - but not what you want I suppose if you're looking for a speed horse
There are some lovely horses out there but some heft price tags!!!
What about this one?
Henrythenavigator - :
Or this?
Ivawood - :

Trouble is, I'm drawn to the stockier types!!!


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> He is a solid horse - but elegant with it and a lovely head and neck - but not what you want I suppose if you're looking for a speed horse
> There are some lovely horses out there but some heft price tags!!!
> What about this one?
> Henrythenavigator - :
> ...


Yeah, Henrythenavigator and Ivawood are very speedy, indeed - they wouldn't be known for breeding chasers though, (Henry started with a massive reputation but his Flat horses haven't lived up to it, that said I actually also loved him).

(E.g. his price ...

2016 EUR 7,500 IRE Coolmore Stud 2015 EUR 15,000 IRE Coolmore Stud 2014 EUR 25,000 IRE Coolmore Stud 2013 EUR 30,000 IRE Coolmore Stud 2012 USD 25,000 USA Ashford Stud, Kentucky 2011 USD 35,000 USA Ashford Stud, Kentucky 2010 USD 40,000 USA Ashford Stud, Kentucky 2009 USD 65,000 USA Ashford Stud, Kentucky ) !!!!!!!!!!


As I see the Malinas photo in better quality now I do agree he has a very refined head and an excellent neck, and a quality, strong all-round appearance

I'll ask some of the vendors who see all the foals etc.. what kind of stock he gets. 

Most of our entire bloodlnes here are dominated by Northern Dancer through Sadlers Wells who was just a phenomenon, so we are always looking for outcrosses and Malinas could definitely be a good one, 

That Stud who brought him from England are usually very shrewd in bringing in outcross stallions that become top-class.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The aptitude for jumping or the desire to want to jump seems to be an individual horse thing but the fact that your mare looks to love it would hopefully pass on to the foal you bred
The OTTB Nijinsky bred gelding we had in the UK did better over fences than he did on the flat and he did win a bit of money before being sold on as a riding horse but gosh that horse was lazy and laid back about life, he was a marvelous horse for gate duty out hunting because he'd happily stand and watch all the others gallop by!!!


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> The aptitude for jumping or the desire to want to jump seems to be an individual horse thing but the fact that your mare looks to love it would hopefully pass on to the foal you bred
> The OTTB Nijinsky bred gelding we had in the UK did better over fences than he did on the flat and he did win a bit of money before being sold on as a riding horse but gosh that horse was lazy and laid back about life, he was a marvelous horse for gate duty out hunting because he'd happily stand and watch all the others gallop by!!!



They do come in all shapes, even if Nijinsky himself was so unbelieavably nervous - the dam-side obviously can affect it a lot, though I usually find a strong tempermental trait gets passed down as a 'dominant'

I'll ask the sales guys about Henry - he's a gorgeous horse, and a Kingmambo which is interesting. But if his horses are very small or something then that would explain why he's being given away - I remember he was just pipped in the Breeders' Cup Classic when it was run on Tapeta.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Be interesting to hear your feedback
Size is a funny thing - attitude to do the job can count for more but it still matters though Hyperion was a very small horse wasn't he
We had a failed racing mare by Interrex out of a mare from National Hunt lines, I actually bought her to do Show Hack classes as she was about 15 hands and really petite and dainty, she'd got sore tendons when I got her so I decided to breed a foal from her which was so nice I eventually bred two more - they were all big sturdy horses that dwarfed her, even the last one by a 14.2 welsh pony made 16.2.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

i have yet to come across a Henry who is relatively good... But that's just a personal opinion.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Maple said:


> i have yet to come across a Henry who is relatively good... But that's just a personal opinion.


His stock has hit rock-bottom that's for sure. But expectations were very high so ? I do think he's a nice looking, tidy horse.

I actually quite like Soldier of Fortune, who was in France and has been bought back - he won an Irish Derby and ran v well twice in the Arc. He also had a pretty good record with French Flat horses,

He's a Galileo, good family, and 16' 1.5",

I also like the look of him if there are any comments on that: He has quite a bit behind the saddle, but not unbalanced at all, a good strong neck, nice head, and the appearance of a real fast horse. Any comments ?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Would he maybe be too thick set to compliment your mare?
Long backed horses in jumping can be prone to sacro-iliac injuries so I'm not sure about him.

Hi Maple


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Certainly I prefer Milan, but I need a back-up also and something different for the future, 

Fame and Glory is in at #2 atm, but there are no confo shots of him which is a real shame,

As for Soldier, his back is a touch long, that's true. And his neck doesn't set in cleanly either. But on the plus he has a lot of presence and size about him and a very strong pedigree + race record,

Then there's also Yeats ... He's been extremely popular at the sales and his first 4yos are doing pretty well, and the new "Walk in the Park" who's also been brought back from France after a very productive spell .. Finally I'll throw in Mahler who is one I like the look of quite a bit and is starting well,

I'll line them all up, you can give your verdict !


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think I'm Milan, Yeats and Mahler
I like Yeats, looks like horse that would have a 'no nonsense' approach to life!!!


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I think I'm Milan, Yeats and Mahler
> I like Yeats, looks like horse that would have a 'no nonsense' approach to life!!!


That's funny re: Yeats,

As a racehorse he was very tough-minded, very determined.

At stud, I've heard some stories that he's a bit of a savage ... I dunno, these stories aren't always accurate.

But his progeny, the good ones anyway, are very hard-headed and don't tend to lose out in 50/50s !


Compared e.g. to the Oscars we've bred who are quite sweet and full of life, or the Presentings who could literally have a bomb go off beside them and wouldn't care... From what I've seen of the Milans they are very smart and attentive, very independent, good-natured.


So, good spot !


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

In that line up the top horse and the last horse are my favorites having not read through the posts at all. That last one I like the best. Good bone and very very balanced and there is something about that look he has.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't worry so much about a stallion being a bit on the aggressive side as long as its proven in as much as it did its job and could be handled - much of the attitude is testosterone fuelled, we had colts that turned from fire breathing dragons to pet lambs when castrated. 
I do find that a horse with some fight in it will want to win more than the easy going type
If you're looking for a fast horse over fences then you need one that's going to be tough, determined and focused on getting from A to B regardless of what's going on around him/her - loose horses, horses and riders falling etc


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Yes, that's my opinion also.

The first horse is the obvious choice as he has great racehorses and also we've bred some lovely stock from him through this family,

The last horse doesn't have the record (yet), and would still be considered a little below the top (in terms of being a Grade2 racer without a fantastic pedigree but definitely one who's being watched closely) 

Though, visually he reallly caught my eye first time I saw him so I'm very happy all that time studying conformation etc. seem to have yielded something









But just going over him, Elana, would you say his hind-leg is a touch straight? His hocks look strong and correct, but compared say to the first horse I'm not sure which I prefer at the angle / position of the hock. ? Would the straight hock be faster for gallery ping and maybe less likely to strain, but the more angled be better for acceleration and jumping fences ?

Thanks Elana.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Lol, sorry, GALLOPING.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

jaydee said:


> I don't worry so much about a stallion being a bit on the aggressive side as long as its proven in as much as it did its job and could be handled - much of the attitude is testosterone fuelled, we had colts that turned from fire breathing dragons to pet lambs when castrated.
> I do find that a horse with some fight in it will want to win more than the easy going type
> If you're looking for a fast horse over fences then you need one that's going to be tough, determined and focused on getting from A to B regardless of what's going on around him/her - loose horses, horses and riders falling etc


Not always. There is a huge issue with A.P. Indy-line horses (particularly Bernardinis and Tapits), Halo-line, and Kris S.-line who so are overly flighty and aggressive headcases that they become almost impossible to work with. The filly Eblouissiante, half to the great Zenyatta and a daughter of Bernardini, had huge potential and after a bad gate incident was just ruined. IMO it's a huge mistake to overlook attitude, even for a racehorse.

I'm not saying don't breed to them, but you better be darn careful.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't disagree EliRose - you have to differentiate between a horse that's got an aggressive competitive edge and stays focused on the job and one that's just plain nasty and bat poop crazy!!!
National Hunt racing can get pretty tough so no room in the sport for precious princesses
You do have to do the research though, absolutely right on that
Yeats looks to have a good track record to prove himself
Yeats | Details | Bloodstock Stallion Book | Racing Post

And his progeny showing promise over fences
Yeats | Stud Record | Bloodstock Stallion Book | Racing Post


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Definitely agree on that!! Yeats is very cool, and he sure can get a nice horse.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Oscar was a sire who's progeny were very focused and hard to beat,

Most importantly though if you get a lot of 'crazies' coming from a sire (and I'm not suggesting that at all about Yeats), but there are some sires, it really hurts when you try to sell because a lot of trainers won't touch them.

Yeats was a very tough racehorse, and his better progeny seem to have that.


Everybody wants something easy to manage around the yard but will battle to the line when it counts - and that's mentality, and some really have that.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

That's the rep the Bernardinis are getting, as least when bred to American mares. His fee is beginning to show it, too. His best US progeny tend to be from the "all-there" Deputy Minister, El Prado, Pleasant Colony lines. Tapits are also a bit like that, but they tend to be more down-to-earth. And EVERY trainer wants a Tapit in their barn . . . Sometimes just to say they have a Tapit in there. Luckily Tapit gives a ton of run to darn near all of his kids.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There was a time when people were saying that Northern Dancer threw difficult horses but I wonder how much of the 'difficult' happens because they end up in the hands of people who don't know how to treat that specific temperament?


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Could be true about Northern Dancer,

With selectively breeding of TBs it's logical that tougher-minded and more competitive horses will come through,


N.D. was a huge jump that the TB breed made

I've also heard good things about Bernardinis, that the right people were buying into him, 

I know with Galileo that Aidan O'Brien says his best quality is the mentality he passes on - I'm sure he's helping sell him also - but there must be something in it.

At least in Ireland the people who have made it to the top in breeding+training are reputed for training very intensively (not that it's very 'hard' or prolonged, but when it's fast it's really FAST etc... And they've partnered with horses who are selected for mental toughness first) 

That's Flat and Jumps, and they are having incredible success


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Bernardini is not as big of a success as he should be, honestly. He got sent the very best of the best mares as A.P. Indy's fertility declined, but he just doesn't throw the same kind of runners. They sure look great in the ring though 

Galileos are such sweethearts. The horse himself is very kind and good-natured, too. There is a great photo of Galileo holding his own lead while the groom is messing with his blanket. American Pharoah is similarly gentle. The most amped I ever saw him was when he was being schooled in the paddock at Monmouth Park for the Haskell. They made the weird decision of schooling him alongside claimers heading into the first race - poor guy thought he was supposed to be going to, and got VERY upset when they left without him! He chilled out pretty quickly though, then just stood with a leg cocked while everyone snapped photos. I have a great picture of him leaving the paddock with his head low and relaxed.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Thought this was relevant to the discussion:
Training Progeny of Bernardini | Slideshow | BloodHorse.com


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wonder how American Pharoah and any offspring that inherit that sweet mild nature would cope in the UK/Ireland's National Hunt race scene?


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

I don't think they'd have a problem. He was tenacious on the track. He just knew how to turn it off and was a consummate professional.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

EliRose said:


> I don't think they'd have a problem. He was tenacious on the track. He just knew how to turn it off and was a consummate professional.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, they are the ones to go for - gentlemen off the track, something you could have a real conversation with - but fiercely determined when they race, understand they need to win.

Sea the Stars - imo the best horse in Europe in my lifetime just like that, also Galileo. They have to have that intelligence off-track to be trainable and managable, but yet know when it's time to battle it's their job to come out on top.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm sure a lot of it is how they're handled. I've had a lot of horses that could be described as 'aggressive ' in the competitive sense and they had quite dominant, slightly bossy temperaments but were 100% reliable to handle, never a kick or a bite in them.
Too many people get a horse like that, especially if its a stallion and think they have to control it with a whip 

The Horse and Hound gave Presenting a wonderful write up this week


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