# Weird symptoms... what should I tell the vet?



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

My vet would ask what color is the stream. If the stream is orange then that is an issue. If it is just the puddle then that he says is sign of a horse not moving around enough and producing something that as it oxidizes turns orange of orange red.


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## horseponycrazy27 (Nov 15, 2015)

It looks like you already know what to tell the vet with everything you wrote on your op. See what the vet recommends and if you don't like it get another opinion if possible. Is the vet coming out the one you like better than the first? By the way I love your horse's name Rusty, my very first horse was named Rusty


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes, that's what I'd heard too @QtrBel, so the colour never worried me. Not sure about the colour of the stream as I don't see him pee often. I mean, he pees, it's just not that common that I'll be right next to him when it happens.

Also, I forgot to mention he did have a chiropractic adjustment recently and the vet who did it did not feel he was out of alignment. The adjustment was minor as he couldn't really find anything to fix.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

horseponycrazy27 said:


> It looks like you already know what to tell the vet with everything you wrote on your op. See what the vet recommends and if you don't like it get another opinion if possible. Is the vet coming out the one you like better than the first? By the way I love your horse's name Rusty, my very first horse was named Rusty


Vet # 1 specializes in chiro, whereas vet # 2 seems to be good at diagnosing difficult problems (he has found solutions to ongoing problems that other vets couldn't figure out). Neither is local to me, so both are expensive. I just think vet # 2 is more likely to get to the bottom of this.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I would think they would draw blood to make sure the kidneys are functioning properly. Also should probably check the white blood cell count. It could be as simple as a urinary tract infection. Something is definitely off. Is he eating fine? Have you done a temp check?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

farmpony84 said:


> I would think they would draw blood to make sure the kidneys are functioning properly. Also should probably check the white blood cell count. It could be as simple as a urinary tract infection. Something is definitely off. Is he eating fine? Have you done a temp check?


No temp check. I can try, but have never checked his temperature before so I don't know how he'll react, especially if he's icky back there. Blood work is a good idea! Thanks. 

He's eating fine.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I'm curious is this just recent as in days? I just took some time to mull over it. The gelding that colicked recently ... the old boy... it was the same story with his owner as money was tight in making it count The vet that had seen him 10 hours earlier said he expected a full recovery which made it harder when I went and checked on him a few times in the night. He was just lifting his tail and bopping his head down every now and then but not regularly. It was "off" but not enough for the owner to warrant having emergency call out especially as the vet earlier was so optimistic and unconcerned. Even the emergency vet I rang said it could probably wait until morning given his lack of symptoms. A couple tail raises and head bobs wasn't enough but it just didn't feel right. I later learned that she'd begun a new stool firmer for his chronic winter diarrhoea only days before but unsure if related. In any case... that pony was so stoic. The vet was so optimistic. And it resulted in disaster. So I'm even more paranoid now.

Everything you wrote sounds like something funky is going on somewhere and bloodwork would need doing. Is it possible to have the cheaper vet draw the blood but you send it to a lab for a panel that vet #2 would suggest? Begin with that first and a phone consultation. Go from there? I know many vets/practices that do this for me. UTI/kidney stones in people would come to mind as a comparison. I never really thought but is low-grade constipation a thing in horses? Where they have gut motility but not 100%? But the sheath thing makes me think an imbalance or infection somewhere. Good luck taking his temperature I think it has to be done >.< And while you're at it get his respiratory/heart rate if you can.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'd have Vet #2 out sooner rather than later. Him lifting his tail and not pooping and the off color pee does it for me. If he has a stone it could cause the discoloration (blood in urine). The tail thing bothers me because when a foal does that, he likely hasn't passed meconium and is struggling to poo. Your guys description is very much in line with that. As for the sheath.....some geldings are just gross. Since you're having issues with the off color pee though, I wonder if he's not getting wet up in there and stuff is sticking more. Has he been that yucky since you got him or is it new?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Could it be a bladder infection?


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I am guessing recurring gas colic - but very mild. If you envision the horses digestive tract it moves upward to the pelvis and anus. My guess is that he has bad hind gut gas and is not moving around because it is firm and it hurts so his urine is a darker color and he lifts his tail to pass gas but can't. This can happen with some types of hay or grains that can cause gas.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

I'll second that if you're having the Vet come out, get a full panel of bloodwork done. Good luck!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Have been out all day, will do his temp tonight. @Kalraii, not new as in days, more like weeks, but seems like possibly getting progressively worse. He has colicked before so I'm watching him, but he is pooping, and the poop is normal. When he colicked, he had really small stool. It's normal right now. I do find they are not drinking as much lately since it's cold and I had to switch to heated buckets. They don't seem to love the warm water. So everytime I refill it, I also walk out and offer them fresh, cold water. 

@DreamCatcher Arabian, his sheath wasn't bad until the vet cleaned it out about 4 months ago. It seems to be getting a lot more dirty a lot faster now, as if the vet disrupted his normal balance. That said, I mentioned it to his previous owner and she says he's always been prone to a messy sheath. 

@tinyliny yeah, I'm wondering about a bladder infection. 

@cashon, so if it's mild gas, it would likely be diet related yes? He just gets hay (a mix with some timothy, no alfalfa because it doesn't grow well around here), timothy hay cubes, a sprinkling of beet pulp (because he likes the taste), salt, a custom mineral mix and recently, I started him on a probiotic. Could the probiotic be causing gas?

Will call the vet tomorrow. I was going to wait until we got to the 2 week mark with the ulcer treatment, but it's likely going to take him a week or two to get out here.


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

I can't offer much on all that's going on with Rusty, the raised tail would suggest gas. I do know from following Horse Vet Corner on FB that in the winter with snow on the ground, horse urine interacts with the snow through a chemical process that causes it to change color, even red. Many owners have asked about it, thinking it was blood, but according to the Vets is just a chemical reaction and nothing to worry about. It's called "Pyrocatechines which is plant metabolites that oxidizes to red year round, but is more noticeable in snow because its white. If your horses urine is yellow when urinating it's normal, if its red coming out before it hits the snow then you need a vet out." Hope this helps.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

@Acadianartist - Yes, the probiotic could be causing gas. You aren't feeding anything else that is not part of a forage based diet for a horse and it could be the probiotic is causing other gut flora to mass produce. The gas pains would cause pain in the loin etc of the horse and discomfort in his lower and upper stomach area - the gas is in his hind gut where most digestion takes place. Horse vet corner is a good place to start and I wonder if there is something that can help with gas in a horse. For cattle there is something you can drench with to help with bloat - but - different species and different digestive tracts!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

His temp and everything else is normal, got a call in to vet # 2, but haven't heard back yet. They're swamped. More than swamped. Phone consults aren't usually done, and he'll want to see Rusty anyway. However, I'm not even sure he can come now, because our whole province just got downgraded to orange phase due to Covid-19 which means people aren't supposed to leave their regions (it's complicated) and he's in a different part of the province. May have to bring in a local vet instead - they are not equine vets, so it will be even more important for me to ask a lot of questions and make a lot of suggestions! So all of your thoughts help a lot! He continues to lift his tail and be generally reactive to having his hind end messed with. Can't say whether is pee is orange before it hits the snow as I haven't had a chance to watch him pee. If he does when I'm around, I'll be sure to have a bucket handy, lol.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> His temp and everything else is normal, got a call in to vet # 2, but haven't heard back yet. They're swamped. More than swamped. Phone consults aren't usually done, and he'll want to see Rusty anyway. However, I'm not even sure he can come now, because our whole province just got downgraded to orange phase due to Covid-19 which means people aren't supposed to leave their regions (it's complicated) and he's in a different part of the province. May have to bring in a local vet instead - they are not equine vets, so it will be even more important for me to ask a lot of questions and make a lot of suggestions! So all of your thoughts help a lot! He continues to lift his tail and be generally reactive to having his hind end messed with. Can't say whether is pee is orange before it hits the snow as I haven't had a chance to watch him pee. If he does when I'm around, I'll be sure to have a bucket handy, lol.











Is this what his pee looks like? Or more like this?








Or more red like blood?


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

Could you not take him to the vet with a trailer (even if you need to borrow)? Around here, it's a long time to get an appointment if you want a farm call (or an arm and leg) but if you drive in it's not too hard to be seen quickly.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

ferricyanide said:


> Could you not take him to the vet with a trailer (even if you need to borrow)? Around here, it's a long time to get an appointment if you want a farm call (or an arm and leg) but if you drive in it's not too hard to be seen quickly.


I have a trailer, but Rusty doesn't do well in one. He has hurt himself before trying to scramble over the divider so I don't want to risk it. I plan on doing some trailer training next summer, but there is no time (and we never go anywhere, so there was no need). Even if I could, I'm not sure I'd be allowed because of Covid. The clinic is over two hours away, in a different zone of our province and we are not supposed to be crossing zones. 

He is coming next Monday so not a terribly long wait.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I would get a CBC/full blood panel. Bloodwork can tell a lot.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

definitely a big yes to a CBC and also complete chemistry panel.

Rusty isn’t that old but I would also have him checked rectally for tumors and have the vet examine him on the outside of his inner thighs to see if he feels any tumors up in there. Hopefully that last part made sense.

Is your Rusty sensitive to any slight pressure when you rub your hand or a brush down his chest. Or down the sides of his neck in that crease area that runs from his throat down between his legs. That doesn’t make any sense I hope you can figure out what I’m talking about.

I ask because my Rusty went through a point in time when he tried to bite my whole arm off if I just touched his chest in that area. It was also a time when he had so much gas I thought he was going to set the barn on fire, plus I could hear him pass gas 1100 feet away up on the high Ridge. I ask because my Rusty went through a point in time when he tried to bite my whole arm off if I just touched his chest in that area. It was also a time when he had so much gas I thought he was going to set the barn on fire, plus I could hear him pass gas 1100 feet away up on the high Ridge. 

I called the traditional vet to examine him. The vet shrugged his shoulders said he didn’t think it was anything to worry about which, that’s what they always say when they don’t know what’s wrong so I paid the bill and called the holistic vet.

I gave her all the symptoms that I gave to the traditional vet, all she did was feel his chest with her hands and said “his lungs are full of crap“. She put him on an herbal product by Dr. Xie called “phlegm fat“. Rusty was better within 10 days but we kept him on the product for two tubs worth, which was two months. He still gets digestive issues but nothing like what he had at this point in time.

Meaning the problem may actually be your Rustys digestive tract and it may start up at the chest area, like it did with my Rusty. 

it’s been a couple years since I asked this question, so maybe someone has come to town, do you have a holistic vet in your area? If you don’t get any answers from the regular vet on Monday, hopefully you have a holistic vet that you could call and talk to.

you ask for things to think about so there you have my two cents LOL LOL


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> View attachment 1107035
> 
> Is this what his pee looks like? Or more like this?
> View attachment 1107036
> ...


Somewhere between pics 1 and 2. Not red. More orange.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks @walkinthewalk! So no, he's not at all sensitive on his chest or neck. I am always hugging him, rubbing him, and loving on him and he enjoys it very much. I know because he comes to me for rubs all the time. He's never had much of a bubble or understood the concept of personal space, so his reactivity around his hind end is odd. I can still rub his butt, but he gets really kicky when I try to pick up his right hind leg. 

I do want the vet to check for melanomas in various unspeakable places. But I think a culture/bloodwork will tell us a lot. My gut feeling is that he has some kind of infection or yeast imbalance in his sheath. However, I'm not ruling out a lot of other possiblities from the kidneys to the digestive tract to melanomas in the rectum. 

Sadly, no, we do not have a better selection of vets than we used to. If nothing, we have less because of the pandemic and various other factors. In fact, when I finally got to talk to someone at my vet's office this morning, she had just been hired. It was 8:30 am on her first day. Poor girl is a receptionist at a vet's office, but really knows nothing about horse anatomy and is trying her very best to write down the symptoms to tell the vet. She gets me to repeat the part about his dirty sheath about 3 times, then asks me to spell sheath. I had to explain to her what it is, and that gelding owners have to clean it out regularly. I could almost hear her gasping on the other end. It was pretty funny, actually. 

This is the second time I call a vet's office and talk to someone who has absolutely zero training or knowledge. This is the state of affairs in my part of the world when it comes to equine vets I'm afraid. I do like this vet though, and am happy he is coming on Monday. He is the only one who will run a lot of tests and not stop until we find a solution. He fixed Harley's chronic diarrhea and his horrible scratches. I'm hoping he can get to the bottom of this too.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Somewhere between pics 1 and 2. Not red. More orange.


Then it’s probably just pee on cold snow and not something wrong.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Then it’s probably just pee on cold snow and not something wrong.


I think you're right, but it is really striking to see the difference between Rusty's pee and Harley's, though I can't be sure Harley's pee is always like that. I'm just basing this on one puddle that we saw him make. Harley does tend to drink more water (he loves salt) so that might account for a more concentrated urine in Rusty. I don't think there is blood in it, but I wanted to mention it just in case it's a symptom. 

I have been providing lots of free-running salt (on top of the salt I add to their food and the salt licks) and they appear to be drinking more water so that's good. They just don't seem to love the warm water in the heated buckets so everytime I fill the buckets, I offer them some fresh from the tap. Soon they'll be like my dog who lays in front of his water dish until we empty out the old water and put in fresh water. every. single. day. Not like the water is several days old, but he won't drink it if it's not fresh. I've created a monster. 

Will keep you all posted on what the vet says. I imagine he'll run a bunch of tests and I've warned him that he may want to sedate Rusty for his own safety.


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## weeedlady (Jul 19, 2014)

Did you get any answers from your vet as of yet? How is Rusty doing now?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

weeedlady said:


> Did you get any answers from your vet as of yet? How is Rusty doing now?


Thanks for checking in  Was just going to update this thread since I heard back from the vet lab yesterday. 

Bloodwork came out fine. Nothing out of the ordinary. Vet thinks ulcers are the biggest problem, and wants Rusty on omeprazole for another 14 days or so. I started him on it again last Thursday (that's when the vet came - the first appt had to be moved because he had an emergency) and still no change. He felt there was way too much noise coming from his gut. Told me to take all supps out of his diet and just feed hay and hay cubes/beet pulp for now, just in case something is aggravating the ulcers. In terms of lifestyle, he agreed it makes no sense because as he said, "this horse lives the life of Riley" with 24/7 turnout, 6 feedings a day, no travel, no shows, very little riding... I feel the loss of Kodak has caused him some anxiety/stress but it's not like he's alone. He and Harley are always side by side. They play fight, but they are never far apart. 

The vet also agreed that his sheath smells awful and the smegma didn't look right, so he took a sample to the lab. They called me yesterday with the results: some yeast, but a LOT of bacteria. The problem is that we don't want to give oral antibiotics given his stomach issues. He told me to do a thorough cleaning (it's -20C this morning so hoping it warms up enough to do it today) and then apply Viaderm (cortisoid + antibiotic) as a topical. He's hoping that will solve the issues. I personally think his sheath is bothering him more than the vet thinks and may be causing some of his discomfort. Yesterday I watched him get up in the pasture, and there was a lot of tail swishing and kicking at his belly, then he walked around awkwardly with his penis hanging low. Maybe just relaxed, but it looked like discomfort to me, reading his body language. Or something else is going on in his GI tract. 

So for now, the plan is to deal with the sheath to see if that helps. If no change with this round of omeprazole, then maybe switch to alfalfa cubes? I'm out of ideas... and this vet also seems to be stumped. I could do another fecal to see if he has a worm infestation. I dewormed him not long ago, but he moved just as I was pushing in the dewormer, which caused some of it to squirt against his lip and back into my face. I got some in my eye (burns like hell, FYI) so I had to go rinse out my eye which means I didn't get a good visual to determine whether or not he swallowed it. He did have a very high worm count when I brought him to my house (he colicked within the first two weeks of being here), but since then, fecals have only shown small numbers of eggs. His last fecal was early last summer. And he only lives with one other horse (does not go off property) who almost never has worms. 

This is really discouraging and frustrating. I can see he is uncomfortable. He is not himself at all - I don't even like to ride him right now. The vet left me with some banamine "just in case" because clearly, he's worried Rusty could colic again. He is drinking, peeing normally, and his manure looks normal.


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## weeedlady (Jul 19, 2014)

wow, poor guy (and poor you). Sorry you've not been able to figure it out. Hope he feels better soon.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I really think swollen genitals are definitely ouchy. I mean knowing how stoic they are and his obvious discomfort with the tail/leg kicking? It must be a nightmare. The stress of having an itch or a burning that he can't relieve might even be causing the ulcers. Goodness knows how long it might have gone on before he began exhibiting it. Chronic pain/irritation is no joke. He sounds like such a good boy letting you clean it. Good luck x


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks for checking in  Was just going to update this thread since I heard back from the vet lab yesterday.
> 
> Bloodwork came out fine. Nothing out of the ordinary. Vet thinks ulcers are the biggest problem, and wants Rusty on omeprazole for another 14 days or so. I started him on it again last Thursday (that's when the vet came - the first appt had to be moved because he had an emergency) and still no change. He felt there was way too much noise coming from his gut. Told me to take all supps out of his diet and just feed hay and hay cubes/beet pulp for now, just in case something is aggravating the ulcers. In terms of lifestyle, he agreed it makes no sense because as he said, "this horse lives the life of Riley" with 24/7 turnout, 6 feedings a day, no travel, no shows, very little riding... I feel the loss of Kodak has caused him some anxiety/stress but it's not like he's alone. He and Harley are always side by side. They play fight, but they are never far apart.
> 
> ...


Yeesh! You're just having a TIME with these boys. I hope the sheath & ulcers is the answer and nothing more. Just watch the sheath for an overgrowth of yeast since you have to treat it with a steroid & antibiotic, even though it's topical. Poor guy, he must be hating life right now.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Yeesh! You're just having a TIME with these boys. I hope the sheath & ulcers is the answer and nothing more. Just watch the sheath for an overgrowth of yeast since you have to treat it with a steroid & antibiotic, even though it's topical. Poor guy, he must be hating life right now.


Yeah, in 5 short years of ownership, I've gone through a crazy number of issues with my two boys. The good news is that Harley is now doing fantastic. He has a shine to his mane, is fitter than ever, performing more advanced dressage movements, and staying at just the right weight without any coughing, skin problems, or much stiffness. We have had a mild winter, so that helps him. So I'm hopeful that Rusty will get better, but it always feels like the solution is just out of reach... the other aspect of this is that Harley is quite stoic, but Rusty is an extrovert, so it's very obvious when he's not feeling well. 

I do feel bad and wonder if there's something I'm doing wrong, or missing, or if there's something in the environment causing this that no one can identify. But I will keep treating the sheath and the ulcers and see if we eventually start to see improvement.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Now wondering if Rusty could have PSSM. Going to send in a hair sample for analysis, but start him right away on magnesium, vitamin E, and oil and commit to exercising him daily for at least 30 min.

The sheath looks a bit gross again though... so maybe it's that, but he's definitely back to his old grumpy self. I could barely get him to trot today. He acts like he's going to fall down all the time. And he actually did collapse on me that one time, in the middle of launching into a canter. Has the weirdest canter, and can't hold it very long. I went back and watched what few videos I have of him cantering (I can't even get him to canter on a lunge line really) and he seems to have a lot of the signs of PSSM. I have never seen him tie up, but otherwise, it fits. He seems to be getting worse. 

The omep didn't really bring the improvement I'd hoped for. His sheath may need cleaning again as it's getting a bit gunky, but nowhere near as bad as it was before. 

This is so frustrating.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Very well could be pssm ice never tied up. But had a lot of soundness issues being muscle sore tightness. Had a lot of things that just weren't right. I just tested for pssm didn't do 5 panel test. 

Got my answer though he's pssm 1 diet exercise vit E and added fat. Exercise daily do 3 miles on average this winter. With my boy keeping him warm is huge so blanketed. He gets cold shivers to long he gets extremely tight in hindquarters an sore stiff moving. 

Finding added fat isn't as critical for my horse. I've backed off on the oil was part of his loose poop issue. So he gets just a cup of oil per day plus what supplement has in it. Seems to be doing great. Also diet is 8 percent nsc total. So low sugar/starch does best on nsc being at 8 to 9 percent. 

Getting diet right and exercise right and feet properly trimmed. Once those things were fixed he slowly started to improve. Mind you it took me over a year to figure out what was wrong. 

He was never not wanting to go forward or not wanting to canter. But he was super reactive. Still is reactive to a lesser degree.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Well that wasn’t what I wanted to hear

I hope that isn’t the case But it’s great @rambo99 commented in case it is

Also, to both of you, take a look at Camelina Oil. It is all natural, high in all the omegas and vitamin E. They say it is good for PSSM horses.









Camelina Oil for Equine | Smart Earth Seeds


Camelina oil for equine. Improves coat, skin, hoof quality & encourages healthy weight gain, while aiding in the protection against cushings disease. Also has positive anti-inflammatory effects, decreasing joint pain & improving joint mobility.




www.smartearthcamelina.ca





They are based in Canada but I buy it through a U.S. facility. Joker has only been on Camelina Oil for about a month. It has made such a difference in reducing his inflammation the vet/chiro noticed and Asked what I am giving him.

Joker only gets one ounce daily, divided in two feedings. His manure looks “happy” but I wouldn’t want to give him too much more. 

I can see the oil in his manure. That is an added benefit for him with his fractured sacrum as the Oil seems to help move things along for him. He’s a lot more comfortable and happy. He actually bucked both legs up this morning - three times no less, lol. It‘s been years since I’ve seen him buck up like that.

If it turns out Rusty is PSSM, maybe give these folks a call. They are terrific to talk to and very knowledgeable.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Did you have him on Vitamin E before this? If not, it could even be simply a deficiency. 

When my mare Halla had it she got very weak. The hind end shows it first, because those are the biggest muscles in the body. She was PSSM negative. She fell down when I lunged her with her hind legs stretched behind her. It was so freaky. 

She developed what looked like a heave line from propping up her hind end with her abdominals. Her hind legs would also tremor when I picked them up.

I've concluded that some horses either can't store E in the muscles or else use it up too quickly. Putting her on a good dose of natural E fixed her issues. If she missed doses she would start showing signs.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks for your encouraging words everyone! @walkinthewalk and @gottatrot, he has been on camelina oil and 1000 IU of vitamin E for the last couple of years, but I recently stopped giving all extra supps because the vet was thinking something is aggravating the ulcers so he wanted me to do an elimination diet. Since he is not showing much improvement, I'm adding them back in, and increasing the Vitamin E and adding magnesium as soon as I can get my hands on some. I agree there could be a magnesium deficiency going on... hoping that's all it is.

He never shivers @rambo99 and never appears cold. He grows a coat like a polar bear so I rarely ever blanket him. On colder days, Harley will stay in the barn (they have access 24/7) but he's outside, not caring one bit. Do you think I should blanket him anyway? 

What got me thinking of PSSM is this youtube video: 




He does pretty well all those things. Here's one video of him cantering in the field with his two hind legs almost together: 




I will see if I can find a video of him cantering with a rider. Some days I can't even get him to trot for more than 5-10 minutes, and even then, it takes a lot of pushing. Forget cantering. He seems to get worse after a few minutes, not better like one would expect in a normal horse. I always do a slow warm-up, but it doesn't help. When I worked with a coach, she just said he was lazy and that I should whack him with the crop more. So I did, and he started bucking. 

He will occasionally launch into a canter/gallop on trails. It's weird, at first I assumed he got stung or something. His hind end kind of tucks under himself, and he lurches forward like he's trying to get away from something. It doesn't last long - I joke that he will never really take off on me because it's too much work. My most recent coach, who has a much gentler approach, saw him trot one day and said there's something wrong and that I shouldn't trot him when he acts like that. Yet I've had chiro and massage done to him, and they can't find anything wrong.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

He's pretty young. It could also be intermittent fixation of the patella like my Hero has. The lurching to get away can be when the stifle catches or slips. They also put the hind legs together at the canter. 

Does he ever drag the hind toes at walk or trot?
Does it ever feel like you lose a corner in the hind end when walking or like he stamps a hind leg down? Those are related to stifle issues.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

That was really good video you posted. It actually helped me understand why Moonshine's bad stifle makes it hard for her to pick her up her right lead.

One thing I don't think it answered (I skipped the first minute or so) was whether a horse with PSSM would voluntarily canter, like Rusty is doing in the snow and like you say he does on trails sometimes. If cantering hurt, wouldn't he just not do it?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

If you want to see cantering with stifle issues, cantering starts on the video at 1:20. He sometimes cross canters and drags his toes.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Here's a canter under saddle. Not pretty. Would this indicate to you that he has ulcers? Stifle issues? PSSM? something else??? He gets the wrong lead, my daughter attempts to correct it, but he gets it wrong again, so she tries to change direction, but he stops. Then he does a 4 beat canter at the end. I have another video loading on Youtube...

I don't think he drags his toes... but he does trip. Mainly, after a few minutes, he puts his head way down, sometimes groans, and sort of stumbles like a drunk.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@ACin


ACinATX said:


> That was really good video you posted. It actually helped me understand why Moonshine's bad stifle makes it hard for her to pick her up her right lead.
> 
> One thing I don't think it answered (I skipped the first minute or so) was whether a horse with PSSM would voluntarily canter, like Rusty is doing in the snow and like you say he does on trails sometimes. If cantering hurt, wouldn't he just not do it?


He rarely does. That day, he was excited about the snow, and was trying to get Harley to chase him. It never lasts long though. I think he forgets that it hurts (IF it really DOES hurt) and does it, then stops when it starts being painful again. I've read that sometimes, PSSM horses are doing this to try to escape the pain (like when he lurches forward on a trail).


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I have no eye for anything but I was wondering, is he swishing his tail because you're asking for a canter, or does he always swish like that even at a trot?

is he noticeably better to one side than the other? Does he pick up the wrong lead on one side, or both sides, or never?

FWIW it took my Pony almost a year of training rides once a week and me riding him twice a week, to where he could pick up his left lead consistently without acting up. He was, let's see, 6 1/2 when she started working with him; he had not been ridden until he was five. The trainer felt like he lacked confidence about his balance, with a person on top of him. Also, with just me riding him, we had gotten into a pattern where, when asking for the left lead, I always braced myself for his "wonies" and that bracing made him even more likely to wony, so we got into a bad pattern that way.

With Moonshine, it was almost certainly her stifle that was the problem. She had bad arthritis maybe related to an old injury. But Rusty is surely too young for that?

In both cases, they were fine in one direction and terrible in the other. I don't know anything about PSSM beyond that excellent video you posted, but it seems like if that were the problem it would be both directions? It seems like you were only riding him to the left in the video? Was that one incident where you wanted him to canter right?


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Oh, I have another question. Since you've mentioned his sheath. Do you know how it was when you took this video? I've heard that bad sheath beans can lead to a horse that is really resistant to moving forward.

I'm sorry if I forgot this from what you said earlier, but it sounds like you're cleaning his sheath. Have you ever gone up in there to dig for beans? (The joys of gelding ownership)

The internet tells me this:

_Build up and beans, or beans in general can cause behavioral problems under saddle, due to extreme discomfort, the beans can cause pressure on the urethra making trot to canter transition interesting, leading to pigrooting and bucking._


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

The tail swishing is generally happening when we ask him to go faster. He doesn't do it at a walk, rarely at a trot unless I keep pushing him to give me a faster trot or canter. Issues are on both sides. I wouldn't be worrying about leads either, except that it may be indicative that something is wrong. He also swishes his tail when I pick up his back legs. Trimming him is a nightmare (luckily his trimmer is actually the person who sold him to me, so she knows him and his weirdness). There is another video coming with a longer canter.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

ACinATX said:


> Oh, I have another question. Since you've mentioned his sheath. Do you know how it was when you took this video? I've heard that bad sheath beans can lead to a horse that is really resistant to moving forward.
> 
> I'm sorry if I forgot this from what you said earlier, but it sounds like you're cleaning his sheath. Have you ever gone up in there to dig for beans? (The joys of gelding ownership)


His sheath was probably bad when this video was taken. It is almost always bad. Recently, the vet did a culture and found a ton of bacteria. Told me to clean it thoroughly (which I did, but it has been cleaned about 4-5 times in the last six months, including once by a vet) and apply Viaderm (cortisone + antibiotic). But even after I cleaned it, he still won't move forward. There was a brief period after we first treated him for ulcers when he was more forward. But after treating the ulcers again, I am not seeing that same improvement so now I wonder if it was a fluke.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Does he do it bareback? What about when your daughter rides him?

I guess I'm asking if there are situations where it's better or worse. I'm sure you've already thought of this, so please feel free to ignore me. It's possible these questions might help someone who is more knowledgeable than me, to give a more informed opinion.

I've got to go trim Pony's hooves now. I hope you will have some good responses soon. I really feel for you -- I know Rusty is a special guy, and it's obvious from the video that something is causing him great distress.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

ACinATX said:


> Does he do it bareback? What about when your daughter rides him?
> 
> I guess I'm asking if there are situations where it's better or worse. I'm sure you've already thought of this, so please feel free to ignore me. It's possible these questions might help someone who is more knowledgeable than me, to give a more informed opinion.
> 
> I've got to go trim Pony's hooves now. I hope you will have some good responses soon. I really feel for you -- I know Rusty is a special guy, and it's obvious from the video that something is causing him great distress.


He's slightly better bareback, but then again, we don't do much bareback since I'm not a good enough rider to think of cantering bareback. So when we ride bareback, I'll do a tiny bit of trotting on the long side of the arena, then go back to a walk. 

We've thought of saddle fit. He flinches when you press down on his lower back, towards his sacrum. The chiro said there isn't anything going on there that would cause that. The vet says it's the ulcers, and that his whole GI tract is probably inflamed, and because it runs along that part of the back, that's what would be causing it. We have tried numerous saddles, and I'm trying a treeless right now. He seems to move more freely in the treeless, but it's not like his symptoms are going away. 

And that was my daughter on him. I can only get about 3-5 strides at the canter. She can get him to go around the paddock once, but as you can see, it's not pretty. I had my coach get on him, and he bucked a lot. What she said is that while she can get him moving forward initially with a lot of leg, it's really hard to keep him going without using a LOT of aids, which of course, isn't helping anyone.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Video # 2:


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

OK that video was very helpful. My opinion is ulcers or gut discomfort is the likely culprit. He looks very strong and moves well in the video. I don't see signs of hind end weakness. When he kicks out, it looks like your daughter had her leg the farthest back at the time, which could indicate gut discomfort. It would explain the reluctance to go faster because of the pain increasing with acid splashing up. He tracks up so nicely and evenly on both sides. He doesn't show signs of locking up or not wanting to fully extend his legs. His hind end moves strongly, which if he had a serious vitamin E deficiency he'd look more like he was pulling himself along. His hind hooves spring up off the ground.

The trip he does looks like a green horse mistake. He was on the wrong lead and is not experienced enough to judge how to swap the hind lead after the front one quickly enough and at that angle while balancing a rider. If he had weakness or neuro issues, that would have sent him off balance but he keeps going fine. It is easy to see when he is cantering that he is still learning how to carry a rider in smaller circles and at faster speeds.

Since you treated for ulcers...some questions. How long was the treatment? Did he get the full dose of Omeprazole every day? Was he weaned off the Omeprazole gradually? Horses can have rebound acid (the stomach tries to stimulate more acid because the acid pumps are inhibited by the drug - this leads to excess production when the drug is discontinued and no longer inhibiting the acid pumps). The drug has to be weaned off slowly so the stomach re-adapts and does not over produce. Otherwise the ulcers can recur immediately. 
Are you making sure to feed him well before every exercise session? Very important for ulcer-prone horses. Also before and during trailering.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> Since you treated for ulcers...some questions. How long was the treatment? Did he get the full dose of Omeprazole every day? Was he weaned off the Omeprazole gradually? Horses can have rebound acid (the stomach tries to stimulate more acid because the acid pumps are inhibited by the drug - this leads to excess production when the drug is discontinued and no longer inhibiting the acid pumps). The drug has to be weaned off slowly so the stomach re-adapts and does not over produce. Otherwise the ulcers can recur immediately.
> Are you making sure to feed him well before every exercise session? Very important for ulcer-prone horses. Also before and during trailering.


Thanks! So it sounds like ulcers are more likely than PSSM. That's good news! 

The first treatment was only 14 days as per the vet. Weaned off very gradually for another 7 days or so. He was getting 2 g of omeprazole per day again, as per the vet. He seemed better then, and was much more forward and had less attitude. This vet says they used to recommend 28 days, but that he was at a conference last year and they spent a lot of time on ulcer research, and that among other things, they found that a 14 day treatment was sufficient. 

I decided to treat again, but this time, got the omprazole from a different vet (mostly out of convenience because the first vet lives 2 hours away from me so it's a hassle to get meds from him). This omeprazole contained sucralfate. Treated for another 14 days without any improvement. Brought back the first vet who seemed puzzled and focused on his sheath. That was addressed and medicated. No change in him after that though I'm sure it must have felt better. We talked about the different kinds of omprazole and that recent research indicates that it is best to give sucralfate separately, not at the same time as the omeprazole. So I asked the vet to give me another 14 days supply of the original omeprazole that seemed to give positive results. He did, and I went through the 14 days supply without seeing much improvement. I asked him to send me another 10 days worth and have started him on that, going down to a half dose. 

He gets fed 6 x a day, and I use slow-feeder nets at night. I never ride him on an empty stomach (I try to give a flake of hay an hour before, since it takes him about 30-45 minutes to eat it). He doesn't go anywhere, so trailering isn't an issue. 

I can ask the vet to send me more omeprazole and do a 28 day treatment, but then what? It just seems to keep coming back. There is nothing more I can do in terms of management - I already do everything right in that area. He should have zero stress in his life.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I would add that he is getting worse rather than better. I found some old videos of him cantering and there wasn't any of the tail swishing or attitude. And the videos I just posted were from last July, but he is even more reluctant to move forward now. That said, the footing isn't great and he isn't very secure in slippery footing, so that could be contributing.


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

I think it's good you are testing for PSSM, but it does look like the GI tract could be the problem too. I have a horse who is similar to Rusty, with the reluctance to move forward and back sensitivity. I have tried many digestive supplements and omeprazole for him with questionable results. Right now, I am using KER Ritetrac, and I really see a difference in his girthiness and back sensitivity. It has antacids for the stomach and Equishure to buffer the hindgut. It might be worth a try.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

3Horses2DogsandaCat said:


> I think it's good you are testing for PSSM, but it does look like the GI tract could be the problem too. I have a horse who is similar to Rusty, with the reluctance to move forward and back sensitivity. I have tried many digestive supplements and omeprazole for him with questionable results. Right now, I am using KER Ritetrac, and I really see a difference in his girthiness and back sensitivity. It has antacids for the stomach and Equishure to buffer the hindgut. It might be worth a try.


Thanks. I've also tried a lot of different things for him. So do you have to keep your horse on Ritetrac permanently? At over 300$ for 50 days, that's going to get expensive. I'm not saying I wouldn't pay that if I knew it was going to help, but I'm getting tired of spending hundreds of $$$ on things that don't help him. I feel like this trial and error approach isn't really getting us anywhere.


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

I know what you mean. I think it must be more expensive where you are, but it's definitely not cheap. I'm on my first month treating with Ritetrac. Honestly, I wasn't crazy about spending that much every day on a supplement; so I only give two-thirds of a serving per day. Two-thirds probably seems like an odd amount but it works out easily with the way it is packaged from Smartpak. Next month, I will probably cut back to one-third of a dose and see how that works.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It could actually be hind gut acidosis or hind gut ulcers. Hind gut acidosis takes a lot longer to resolve. You could just feed the Equishure instead of the Ritetrac for a lot cheaper. It is quite possible that colic has upset the flora in the digestive tract, and created an acidotic state. 

I believe both of those treatments could have been ineffective. It can take a lot longer than two weeks for ulcers to begin to heal, and let's say there was rebound acid if the treatment was stopped abruptly, the ulcers could have just begun to heal and then extra acid could have made them even worse.

The carafate treatment I'd consider ineffective completely. As a nurse, I've made the mistake of giving carafate with other pills. Once a person had really high blood pressure and we realized it was because I had given the carafate too close to a blood pressure pill. A nurse that worked in a GI lab told me that he watched carafate going through the digestive tract on video. He said it basically binds the other medications into a slimy ball and carries them along. It coats over everything but also coats and binds other medications, rendering them largely ineffective.

I've treated ulcers for a month, with the last week beginning the taper where I go to a 3/4 dose for a couple days, 1/2 dose for a couple days, 1/4 dose for a couple of days. After that time I consider the ulcers beginning to heal, and hopefully not open and raw anymore. But that is when I still avoid exercise other than slow walking and jogging (during treatment I avoid exercise), and continue with Equishure, prebiotics and probiotics when I suspected hind gut acidosis. I switched from Equishure to SmartDigest Ultra after a time, and then used that for a couple of months (stopping the probiotics since they are in the SmartDigest). There are a number of different kinds of pro and prebiotic supplements that would work.

After that period of time, the symptoms should be gone and then it is just prevention. But you might want to keep the horse on pre and probiotics for a while to help keep the right bacteria in the hind gut. In my experience it's not just a low stress lifestyle and feeding lots of hay; when the wrong bacteria have taken over, it can take serious treatment to get them to move out and to have the better bacteria take over. If the conditions are acidic in the hindgut, it is very difficult for the more beneficial bacteria to live there. That is why sometimes it takes something like Equishure to help change the PH long enough for the bacteria to take over that prefer and promote the less acidic environment.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

While I would test for PSSM, because I am a “need to know” person and prefer process of elimination, I’m with @gottatrot on this - especially the hind gut issue and that it can take longer than two weeks to resolve gut issues

Rusty is in a lot of discomfort. I don’t see anything in this video that indicates neurological.

Something else to consider is fatty lipomas in the hind gut. They are quite common in geldings and stallions, especially older ones.

They can be removed but it’s an expensive surgery.

I think whatever is wrong is in the hind gut, whether it’s an upset of flora, fatty tumors, his vertebra could even be out.

This is when I feel for the vets- animals can’t say what is wrong and certain issues can be mis-diagnosed.

Then there are all of us arm chair vets giving what we hope are helpful ideas, while the owner tears their hair out and says to the horse “talk to me darn it! Talk to me!”


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

A friend got on him yesterday and it was pretty bad. He would barely move forward. He got quite cranky, would nip at his sides, and just refuse to move forward no matter how much pushing my friend did. The weird thing is that he would stand there with his neck outstretched, nose to the ground, and close his eyes. To me, it looks like a pain posture. Keep in mind, this was not a hard ride. Just a bit of trotting (not even once around the arena) and mostly walking. Thinking I may try to lunge him today to see if he's ok trotting on the lunge line or if we see the same. Trying to figure out where this is coming from, and why it is getting worse. I understand what you're saying @gottatrot. Going to run the idea by my vet.

Will call the vet today to see if we can figure something out. The only time we have seen progress was after the initial 14 day treatment of omeprazole without the sucralfate. 

I did try him on a pre/probiotic without any success.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Biting his sides is also a classic ulcer sign. Also the fact that you saw changes after the first treatment.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I've put in a call to the vet. Hoping he will get back to me today with some advice. Will keep you all posted. But remember, options here are somewhat limited. Driving Rusty 5 hours to a veterinary hospital is not realistic (Covid makes it near impossible to travel out of province, he doesn't trailer, cost would be in the several thousands) and this is the best equine vet (well, actually, the only equine vet I know of since others are livestock vets) who will service our area (he has to drive 2 hours to get to me).


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I am also going to put in that the sheath and the bacteria could be part of hind gut issues and acidosis is a good call. When acidosis happens the acid also affects other parts of his body including kidneys. When he urinates it is acidy and probably burns when the urine (even a little) comes in contact with the outside of the penis when he retracts is causes small burns and he is getting a bacterial over load. I would stop riding or lunging - he is obviously painful and making him work like this is causing more stress and more acid production. In cows we give bi-carb for acidosis but I am not sure what a horse would need.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

@carshon, FYI the Equishure is bicarb that has been treated so it can reach the hindgut.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

The vet is wanting to treat him for ulcers again using omeprazole once a day, sucralfate 2 x a day (given an hour after the omep), and thiamine (B1). 

However, this morning, I had a look at him (my usual morning inspection) and found his sheath full of what looks like dried blood. As per the vet's instructions, I cleaned his sheath thoroughly on January 20th, then applied a generous amount of Viaderm cream (cortisone + antibiotic). It stayed clean for about a week, then started to have bits of pink/ brown smegma. I swear I could smell the smegma in the barn (I'm all too familiar with the smell now) though other people were saying they couldn't smell it. And today:









I have seen this before. I mean, it has to be blood right? Where is it coming from? Why does this keep happening? Could this be the true source of all his problems rather than ulcers? 

Have emailed the vet with the photo. He did inspect his sheath when he was here, and the culture he took showed high bacteria. But this looks like more than bacteria to me. And it was JUST cleaned!

I am pulling my hair out at this point. I can't even ride him right now, he is so uncomfortable.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

My guess, based on my Rusty when he had beans waaay up in his sheath that I didn't get, is that your Rusty could be biting himself because he either itches like crazy or hurts.

My Rusty's sheath had swollen twice its size which is why I had the vet out. The vet found three good sized beans way up inside. Once those were removed and Rusty had a cleaning, he stopped biting himself. It was summer time, therefore no hair on the sheath. I could actually see the tooth marks down the side of his sheath.

If that isn't from your Rusty biting himself, he could be having an allergic reaction to some of the meds, or to ???? Certainly not bugs as yours freeze to death until June


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I would like to know if the vet is willing to sedate him enough that he drops down all of the way so you can inspect the entire length of his penis and look at his sheath. I don't think this is blood but more smegma and there is a reason it is building up.


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## Cerceify (Jan 11, 2021)

walkinthewalk said:


> While I would test for PSSM, because I am a “need to know” person and prefer process of elimination, I’m with @gottatrot on this - especially the hind gut issue and that it can take longer than two weeks to resolve gut issues
> 
> Rusty is in a lot of discomfort. I don’t see anything in this video that indicates neurological.
> 
> ...


I agree. I have been out of horse activities for a few years, though I do still have horses. I went through the ulcer issue when my pony had to go to the University twice. The vet there did say that alfalfa would calm the stomach as it has calcium in it. My regular vet just wanted me to stay away from rich food for her. In a pinch I would give her Metamucil. She wasn't being worked at the time and was only 3years old. Your horse does look uncomfortable. My pony actually ran up to the barn and threw herself against the walls over and over until I got her to the Univ. Clinic. I also had a lovely Appy that was 23 when he suddenly came down with lipomas wrapped around his intestines. I had him put down in the middle of the operation. That was a long time ago, but at the time, a friend who was an equine vet said then that they never get over that type of surgery. I thought the surgeon was going to cry when I told her to stop. Ten feet of dead intestine was a bit too much for me.


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## Cerceify (Jan 11, 2021)

carshon said:


> I would like to know if the vet is willing to sedate him enough that he drops down all of the way so you can inspect the entire length of his penis and look at his sheath. I don't think this is blood but more smegma and there is a reason it is building up.


We were going to scope my pony gelding a couple of weeks ago. He got his bladder scoped and he is at the surgeon's now for a bladder stone. My vet wanted a longer scope to check the ureter, but it's a busy time now and her boss wouldn't loan it to her I guess. If a horse is big it may be difficult to see the bladder or even operate as they often let the horse stand and remove the stone, which is certainly more economical.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

@Cerceify your #65 post was a hard read. I am so sorry for the issues you’ve had to deal with. I also lost a horse to lipomas. Duke was 27 when he had the big colick.

Stones! I did t think about stones! That certainly is something for @Acadianartist to consider


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I don't have geldings so have nothing useful to offer, have just been following the thread in hopes that Rusty feels better. But the last couple of posts reminded me of this incredible post on HF a few years ago, about a horse with a giant bladder stone. Just dropping the link in case it's informative. And hoping you get to the bottom of what's going on with Rusty!


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## Cerceify (Jan 11, 2021)

walkinthewalk said:


> @Cerceify your #65 post was a hard read. I am so sorry for the issues you’ve had to deal with. I also lost a horse to lipomas. Duke was 27 when he had the big colick.
> 
> Stones! I did t think about stones! That certainly is something for @Acadianartist to consider


I sure hope your horse will be getting better. Mine is still at the surgery. I haven't heard anything, though I'm sure he will stay one night, They probably want him back to me for the weekend! My vet said she had only had two horses in her entire career diagnosed with Bladder stone. That was in the last two years. One was old and put down and the other was a big TB. He had to be laid down to finish the operation as they couldn't get to the stone from the rectal or perianal area. That cost a lot more. Then I ran into two vets getting my Covid Vaccine last week. One said that Ocala FL is the "Kidney Capital of the U.S." Stones could be anywhere. Anyway, my pony also has crystals and a little blood in his urine. A lot to think about. One type of crystal is in one type of stone and another in another type of stone. Mine has Calcium Oxalate(easier to break up and get out if necessary) per the CT photo. Very interesting, as the stones are made up of the same stuff in humans and dogs, but horses are not omnivores, so controlling things are different.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> My guess, based on my Rusty when he had beans waaay up in his sheath that I didn't get, is that your Rusty could be biting himself because he either itches like crazy or hurts.
> 
> My Rusty's sheath had swollen twice its size which is why I had the vet out. The vet found three good sized beans way up inside. Once those were removed and Rusty had a cleaning, he stopped biting himself. It was summer time, therefore no hair on the sheath. I could actually see the tooth marks down the side of his sheath.
> 
> If that isn't from your Rusty biting himself, he could be having an allergic reaction to some of the meds, or to ???? Certainly not bugs as yours freeze to death until June


No way he is biting himself. I am at the barn 6 times a day. I watch him from my window all the time. I have never once seen him try to bite his sheath. So no... not a bite. Whatever this is, it's coming from way up in the sheath. 

Why would there be dried blood??? 

Thanks for your thoughts all. Have considered bladder or kidney stones, but he pees just fine. I have watched him do that too... poor guy gets no privacy anymore! 

The vet wants me to clean it again, and apply the topical daily for a few days.


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## Cerceify (Jan 11, 2021)

Acadianartist said:


> No way he is biting himself. I am at the barn 6 times a day. I watch him from my window all the time. I have never once seen him try to bite his sheath. So no... not a bite. Whatever this is, it's coming from way up in the sheath.
> 
> Why would there be dried blood???
> 
> ...


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## Cerceify (Jan 11, 2021)

carshon said:


> I would like to know if the vet is willing to sedate him enough that he drops down all of the way so you can inspect the entire length of his penis and look at his sheath. I don't think this is blood but more smegma and there is a reason it is building up.


That would be a good time for a CT scan of his bladder. My pony's took about 5 minutes to palpate and scan. Check with your vet. I haven't gotten the bill for that yet.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Acadianartist said:


> The vet is wanting to treat him for ulcers again using omeprazole once a day, sucralfate 2 x a day (given an hour after the omep), and thiamine (B1).
> 
> However, this morning, I had a look at him (my usual morning inspection) and found his sheath full of what looks like dried blood. As per the vet's instructions, I cleaned his sheath thoroughly on January 20th, then applied a generous amount of Viaderm cream (cortisone + antibiotic). It stayed clean for about a week, then started to have bits of pink/ brown smegma. I swear I could smell the smegma in the barn (I'm all too familiar with the smell now) though other people were saying they couldn't smell it. And today:
> View attachment 1108937
> ...


That photo looks like my 25 yr old Paint gelding's sheath when he had cancer in there and I was applying blood root (the red color came from the blood root). BUT, it does make me wonder if he could have some sort of sore or growth up in there. I don't think that color is normal for smegma.....I have only seen blackish/gray (darn skinned horse) or pinkish/grey (my Paint who was mainly pink-skinned down there). But of course I'm not the smegma expert either! I wonder if Appaloosas are prone to skin cancer the way Paints are? I think if that persists, I would insist the vet sedate him and take a closer look. It could be something as simple as a foxtail or piece of debris causing a sore in there. But the color looks off to me too. The good news is, Rusty is young, so it probably isn't cancer, but whatever it is, it would be nice to get a diagnosis and cure it. Best of luck!


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

trailhorserider said:


> That photo looks like my 25 yr old Paint gelding's sheath when he had cancer in there and I was applying blood root (the red color came from the blood root). BUT, it does make me wonder if he could have some sort of sore or growth up in there. I don't think that color is normal for smegma.....I have only seen blackish/gray (darn skinned horse) or pinkish/grey (my Paint who was mainly pink-skinned down there). But of course I'm not the smegma expert either! I wonder if Appaloosas are prone to skin cancer the way Paints are? I think if that persists, I would insist the vet sedate him and take a closer look. It could be something as simple as a foxtail or piece of debris causing a sore in there. But the color looks off to me too. The good news is, Rusty is young, so it probably isn't cancer, but whatever it is, it would be nice to get a diagnosis and cure it. Best of luck!


Age doesn't matter pink skinned sheath or penis can have cancer issues. Issue could be high up in sheath could have lesions up there that have gone unnoticed. 

Reason I have both my geldings throughly checked yearly by vet horses sedated so they drop fully.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

He was examined thoroughly by two vets, once while he was still sedated from getting his teeth done. Neither found anything other than that red/pink smegma and a few beans (those tend to be black). And yes, the vet said it is not normal for it to be this colour. His urine is normal-looking.

As for a CT scan, we don't have that technology here. I'd have to haul him 5 hours to a different province to get to a vet college and that's not happening in the middle of Covid. He also doesn't trailer well. The only thing they have here is portable X ray machines. I can ask about a portable ultrasound. 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that something isn't right up there. I just don't know what more we can do. I'm talking to the vet once or twice a week now, and the bills are piling up. But this vet is 2 hours away from me, and every time he comes to my house, it's a 400$ bill just for the visit. He's the only equine vet that services this area. The others are livestock vets.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

You know what --- I think, at this point, I would hunt down one of those good ole boy livestock vets that's been around forever. All the better if they had been raised with livestock.

Ask if they might know something they didn't learn in vet school. It could even be something they may have seen with bulls --- just anything to maybe give you a clue.

I know you are several hours from a big clinic, Covid is limiting travel, and Rusty doesn't like trailering. Looking further outside the box may get you some sort of clue and to me, that means tracking down all of the old time cow vets and asking for their input Even if you have to pay consultation fees, they probably still won't add up to one visit from the circuit equine vet

People forget that, before there were "specialty" vets (as in strictly horses), there were livestock vets. Where I grew up, those old time all around vets knew more about horses than some of the modern day, just-out-of-vet-school horse vets.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

This morning I am thinking that what can be that reddish color is yeast. Have you treated for yeast infection? Cortisone would actually make that worse. Apparently horses with gut issues like ulcers or colic are more prone to yeast because their normal flora gets messed up. They actually recommend putting yogurt with live cultures up inside th sheath for a few days.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I just wanted to add for ulcers, for treatment/prevention another good thing to use (& cheaper), is pure Marshmallow root.  Wildhorseproducts has a good powder, and there's also another site I use that has it, but it's not a powder it's more of a texture. I do about 1-2 tablespoons (2x a day, 1 tablespoon per feeding). It's good stuff, & it works without breaking the bank.

Regarding his sheath, I'd definitely try to keep his sheath as clean as you can, it does sound more like a yeast infection though. Poor buddy, hope he feels better soon. Keep us posted. If it's not improving, I'd see another vet. The more eyes on it, the better.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@PoptartShop, I have been feeding marshmallow root for years, but I appreciate the suggestion! 

They did a culture of his smegma and found small amounts of yeast, but huge amounts of bacteria. That's why the vet says to treat it with Viaderm to knock down the bacteria. I get that yeast can be a problem too though. But at this point, I think I have to hold the course and keep cleaning his sheath. He may be the type of horse that needs it cleaned weekly. Maybe just with warm water... right now, it's been cleaned (luckily Rusty is a saint about it, and I can do it without even tying him as long as he has hay and I got slow and gentle) and I will apply more Viaderm daily for a few days. 

That's not a bad suggestion @walkinthewalk... but in the past, this equine vet has fixed things other livestock vets couldn't (or wouldn't, because to them, it's not a big enough problem). I should say too that our livestock vets (they work for the province) are completely overworked right now, and severely understaffed. So it would be hard to get one out anyway, but I could probably if I pushed it. However, the vet I am using now fixed Harley's chronic scratches when the provincial vets couldn't, and his chronic winter diarrhea, when again, the others were stumped. He does his research, is up to date on things, and will often suggest easy solutions first (with Harley's scratches, it was raw honey that did it!). So I am going to stick with his advice for now rather than mess anything up mid-treatment, as hard as it is.

I am writing everything down now too, so I can notice Rusty's improvement and link them to changes. I went back and looked at the one time he seemed to show significant improvement last summer and it was right after the first omeprazole treatment. So I should see change in a couple of weeks. If I don't then something else is going on... 

I'm also looking for a companion horse (pony or mini) for him before spring hits and we start taking Harley off-property...


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

rambo99 said:


> Age doesn't matter pink skinned sheath or penis can have cancer issues. Issue could be high up in sheath could have lesions up there that have gone unnoticed.
> 
> Reason I have both my geldings throughly checked yearly by vet horses sedated so they drop fully.


I know that.....but being that he is much younger than my horse that had cancer issues, I was trying to take the sting out of "make sure you check your horse for cancer."


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Some marshmallow root products are not the 'pure' marshmallow root and have fillers. Just was suggesting! You're welcome.

Good luck to him. Keep us posted, everyone's had a lot of good suggestions!


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## Luna’s rider (Jan 23, 2021)

I know nothing about all of these issues but I wanted to say that the love and loyalty that transpire from this thread are one of the most inspiring things I’ve ever come across...
From a returning rider who’s finding out everything about horses again and who’s dreaming of her own horse one day: I hope I’ll be an owner just like you, Acanadianartist.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Luna’s rider said:


> I know nothing about all of these issues but I wanted to say that the love and loyalty that transpire from this thread are one of the most inspiring things I’ve ever come across...
> From a returning rider who’s finding out everything about horses again and who’s dreaming of her own horse one day: I hope I’ll be an owner just like you, Acanadianartist.


Wow, that's a very... sweet thing to say! I hope you do get that horse someday. I had horses growing up, then didn't until my 6 year old daughter asked for lessons. Everyone who knows me here has heard this story, but my daughter is now about to turn 16, and is a fantastic rider, and I feel so, so fortunate to be able to share this with her! It is a gift for both of us. And while both my horses have medical issues (thankfully, we are now staying on top of all my daughter's horse's issues and he is healthier than ever at 21!), I consider them a gift as well. They teach me things every day. And Rusty is... special. Even if I could never ride him again, he'd always have a special place in my barn. 

The people here are fantastic. Generous, and knowledgeable. Straight up with you, but not in a hurtful way. Though in the end, I think that we all put the horses first so if I was doing something wrong, I would fully expect someone here to call me on it and put me straight!!!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

PoptartShop said:


> Some marshmallow root products are not the 'pure' marshmallow root and have fillers. Just was suggesting! You're welcome.
> 
> Good luck to him. Keep us posted, everyone's had a lot of good suggestions!


Yep, I hear ya. I've probably bought all those supps too, lol. But I have been buying my marshmallow root powder pure from an herb dealer. You never know though with herbs right? I mean, how much is left after they dry it out and reduce it to powder? Hopefully something... but it hasn't been enough to make a difference for Rusty, unfortunately. 

I do appreciate ALL the suggestions! Because you just never know when that ONE thing you hadn't tried yet might be key.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> I'm also looking for a companion horse (pony or mini) for him before spring hits and we start taking Harley off-property...


Oh great, can't wait to hear what health puzzles this new one brings. LOL. Had to tease...you've brought us some real stumpers at times!!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> Oh great, can't wait to hear what health puzzles this new one brings. LOL. Had to tease...you've brought us some real stumpers at times!!


hahaha... right!?! Like if I ever have a horse that has no problems, it will be so weird! But man, I am learning SO much! 

Also taking an equine health course from the University of Guelph starting Monday. All about the Digestive system! Could not be more appropriate really...


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## Luna’s rider (Jan 23, 2021)

Acadianartist said:


> Wow, that's a very... sweet thing to say! I hope you do get that horse someday. I had horses growing up, then didn't until my 6 year old daughter asked for lessons. Everyone who knows me here has heard this story, but my daughter is now about to turn 16, and is a fantastic rider, and I feel so, so fortunate to be able to share this with her! It is a gift for both of us. And while both my horses have medical issues (thankfully, we are now staying on top of all my daughter's horse's issues and he is healthier than ever at 21!), I consider them a gift as well. They teach me things every day. And Rusty is... special. Even if I could never ride him again, he'd always have a special place in my barn.
> 
> The people here are fantastic. Generous, and knowledgeable. Straight up with you, but not in a hurtful way. Though in the end, I think that we all put the horses first so if I was doing something wrong, I would fully expect someone here to call me on it and put me straight!!!


my son started riding at 4 (now he’s 6) and he’s the reason why I came back to it after 25 years - with a BIG motivation and the certainty I’ll never give it up again... we also just put my 2.5 yo on the saddle... maybe one day we will have the gift of a loving horse for the whole family! Good luck with Rusty. He sounds like a fantastic companion.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

You know you're in deep when you start talking about your "herb dealer".... re-reading my replies above, I suddenly miss that ROFL emoji from the old forum right now.


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## Cerceify (Jan 11, 2021)

Cerceify said:


> We were going to scope my pony gelding a couple of weeks ago. He got his bladder scoped and he is at the surgeon's now for a bladder stone. My vet wanted a longer scope to check the ureter, but it's a busy time now and her boss wouldn't loan it to her I guess. If a horse is big it may be difficult to see the bladder or even operate as they often let the horse stand and remove the stone, which is certainly more economical.


The surgeon was able to scope the ureter and bladder again after surgery the day I picked up the pony. No problems there. The stone was about the size of a tennis ball. The vet said the stone will irritate the tissue of the bladder and cause infections, so he was given IV antibiotics over the weekend. I ended up leaving him at the equine hospital a week! Delays due to breeding season here and cold front resulting in a few rambunctious horses needing emergency surgery, so my pony had wait.


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## LECJ (Apr 2, 2021)

Acadianartist said:


> The vet is wanting to treat him for ulcers again using omeprazole once a day, sucralfate 2 x a day (given an hour after the omep), and thiamine (B1).
> 
> However, this morning, I had a look at him (my usual morning inspection) and found his sheath full of what looks like dried blood. As per the vet's instructions, I cleaned his sheath thoroughly on January 20th, then applied a generous amount of Viaderm cream (cortisone + antibiotic). It stayed clean for about a week, then started to have bits of pink/ brown smegma. I swear I could smell the smegma in the barn (I'm all too familiar with the smell now) though other people were saying they couldn't smell it. And today:
> View attachment 1108937
> ...


Hi how did you get on with this problem please? I have a cremello with similar coloured smegma issues


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

LECJ said:


> Hi how did you get on with this problem please? I have a cremello with similar coloured smegma issues


Ongoing, sadly,

My bodyworker advised me to do a full elimination diet. He has only been eating hay and timothy hay cubes for 3 weeks now. It's not really better. He told me I would see a difference in two weeks, and that I could re-introduce his supplements one at a time, for two weeks each, then wait two weeks before introducing the next one. The idea is to figure out if something in his feed is causing his gut to produce too much of something that is creating an imbalance.

I have reached out to some online vets since I still cannot get my vet to come out and even if he did, he feels he's done all he can. Two different online vets have suggested transfaunation. I have a detailed description of how to do it and will probably attempt this. I have another gelding that has no issues with his sheath, so I will culture some smegma from him and introduce it to Rusty's sheath. This has to be done several times, but I figure I have nothing to lose since they live together anyway, so whatever fauna is in Harley's sheath is not completely foreign. Sounds a bit crazy typing this all out, but nothing else so far has worked, and this seems relatively non-invasive so I'll give it a shot. Will let you know how it works out.


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## weeedlady (Jul 19, 2014)

Acadianartist said:


> Ongoing, sadly,
> 
> Two different online vets have suggested transfaunation. I have a detailed description of how to do it and will probably attempt this. I have another gelding that has no issues with his sheath, so I will culture some smegma from him and introduce it to Rusty's sheath. This has to be done several times, but I figure I have nothing to lose since they live together anyway, so whatever fauna is in Harley's sheath is not completely foreign. Sounds a bit crazy typing this all out, but nothing else so far has worked, and this seems relatively non-invasive so I'll give it a shot. Will let you know how it works out.


My gelding has got to be the dirtiest boy ever. His smegma is not blood colored, but his sheath is always dirty. My vet cleaned him twice- three weeks apart and was shocked at how dirty he had gotten. She also recommended the procedure @Acadianartist mentions above. I have not gone that route as of yet. 3 months of a daily probiotic has helped him.


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## LECJ (Apr 2, 2021)

The cremello I have is only on hay and field grass so it’s not likely to be dont related I don’t think - will be interesting to see if your elimination diet helps - the smegma transplant isn’t crazy I’ve heard of it being good for humans - I’m still working on the basis of it being a lack of good bacteria - I treated with human canesten and ten days of natural yoghurt, symptoms improved I then stopped and a few days later it had worsened again - my other gelding also has an over productive smegma but the other fella arrived with it a few months ago so I don’t think it’s environmental at home but who knows not me


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## LECJ (Apr 2, 2021)

*diet


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I just had a ding moment... my friends two mares (pink skinned cobs) both have blood coloured booby smegma. It caused me some alarm in the summer. I can't believe even during the time you initially put this up I didn't think about this. I asked the vet in passing and he said some pink skinned mares are just like that. I washed regularly, used nappy cream and later a different fly repellent gel. Even now if I stick a finger and scrape it comes back the same. They do both seem to suffer with more build up than my two girls. I asked the owner of the 26 year old and she said she's been like that her whole life no problems throughout.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Kalraii said:


> I just had a ding moment... my friends two mares (pink skinned cobs) both have blood coloured booby smegma. It caused me some alarm in the summer. I can't believe even during the time you initially put this up I didn't think about this. I asked the vet in passing and he said some pink skinned mares are just like that. I washed regularly, used nappy cream and later a different fly repellent gel. Even now if I stick a finger and scrape it comes back the same. They do both seem to suffer with more build up than my two girls. I asked the owner of the 26 year old and she said she's been like that her whole life no problems throughout.


Yes, we aren't really sure it's blood. Apparently some geldings can have blood-coloured smegma. This really looks like dried blood, but I can't be really sure. It was cultured though, and was found to have very high bacteria and some yeast (though the bacteria was really high so that was the vet's main concern). 

I have tried every pre and probiotic under the sun, and sadly, nothing seems to change. Will likely try the transfaunation, but one online vet asked me to email photos of his penis first so she can have a look for unusual-looking growths. Turns out it's not that easy to get him to drop for the camera, lol. He did stop and pee today while I was outside, and I had my phone, but was in the process of explaining to my new barn hand what I needed him to do and felt a little awkward saying "hang on, I just gotta take a pic of my horse's wiener". Oh the things we do for our animals!


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## Part-Boarder (Aug 17, 2019)

Sorry to hear the latest about Rusty @Acadianartist. Is it possible to get the local vet to take the blood samples to send to the equine vet? Wondering if that could be done while you wait until your appointment...otherwise you’d have to wait beyond the week to get the whole picture


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Part-Boarder said:


> Sorry to hear the latest about Rusty @Acadianartist. Is it possible to get the local vet to take the blood samples to send to the equine vet? Wondering if that could be done while you wait until your appointment...otherwise you’d have to wait beyond the week to get the whole picture


They did full bloodwork months ago when the sheath was cultured. Everything is normal. Not much point in repeating it. 

While replying to the latest comments, I re-read my whole thread and saw the videos I had posted a while ago. He is nowhere near as reactive now (no tail swishing), so maybe the ulcers have resolved? However, the sheath is still a mess, which is why that's the symptom I'm focusing on. Als --, and this is what is driving me nuts -- he is extremely sluggish. I have been trying to ride him regularly to try to get him fit, but it's not working. After 20-30 minutes, he's done. Unless we're on a trail - then he's fine. When comparing with videos I posted a few months ago, he has far less energy now than he ever did.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Alrighty, so... this thread is getting long, but I am reluctant to start a new one because, well, there is too much to go over. 

But I wanted to record this somewhere, so here goes:

By reaching out online (paid, not just googling, lol) I was able to get the advice of two vets who have dealt with nasty sheaths. Both have suggested transfaunation. One broke it down into steps over the course of 6 days. I am going to attempt this by retrieving smegma from Harley, who has a healthy sheath, and introducing it into Rusty's sheath. But before I do that, I need to clean his sheath with chlorexidine, then a yeast infection product for three days. 

Day 1 just happened. Poor Rusty doesn't like me touching his sheath at first, but seems to find some relief in it since he will eventually stand there and let me do it at liberty (I do it in the paddock and he is not even haltered, much less tied -- this may have to change over the course of the next few days, but tonight he was very compliant). I just go very slow, rinse out his sheath, then wash with the chlorexidine, then insert a generous amount of Canesten. His sheath was very smelly tonight, and has been for a few days now, since I have not cleaned it in a couple of weeks. 

No pics. Yes, I know, you're all so very disappointed about that.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Oh my - I REALLY tip my hat to you💐💐

I sure hope this is successful.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Yea, I've been following along, hope this works.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I would get a blood panel done. CBC kidney and liver . He could be getting stones. Do you feed supplements? I would reduce them. Just hay for a while to see if the orange pee stops.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Sounds really neat I hope it works!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> I would get a blood panel done. CBC kidney and liver . He could be getting stones. Do you feed supplements? I would reduce them. Just hay for a while to see if the orange pee stops.


I realize it's a long thread and you didn't get a chance to read it all, but a blood panel was done already. All supps have been stopped as part of an elimination diet. This is no longer about orange pee, he has nasty smelling smegma in his sheath. I clean it and a few days later it comes back. My equine vet determined he had a bacterial infection, we treated it with penicillin, but it's still nasty so I am trying a new approach.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Day 2 done. I have gone where no one should have to go. Done the deed. Lubed the dude.

I cleaned the sheath with Hibiclens (applied generously, then rinsed) followed by Canesten, which I smear around as much as I can to get it way up high. Those long applicators really help. I'm also glad I ordered those vet gloves that go up to the shoulder, but maybe I should have splurged a little more on better quality ones because I'm pretty sure these leak every time. I wash my hands over and over afterwards. Ew.

Rusty was clearly not happy with my obsession with his private parts, and was rather uncomfortable when I had my hand way up there. I was able to do it without tying him, but he was really lifting those hind legs, swishing his tail, and I had to monitor him closely so I wouldn't get kicked. I think I'll just tie him tomorrow. Poor guy


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## Txshecat0423 (May 27, 2020)

@Acadianartist, I’m so glad you’ve been blessed with a sense of humor.
I myself have a pretty warped sense of humor and can find something funny in almost every situation. 

I admire you for going to the lengths you are to help your boy. To infinity and beyond, so to speak 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Txshecat0423 said:


> @Acadianartist, I’m so glad you’ve been blessed with a sense of humor.
> I myself have a pretty warped sense of humor and can find something funny in almost every situation.
> 
> I admire you for going to the lengths you are to help your boy. To infinity and beyond, so to speak


Yes, well, might as well laugh about it! I do like learning more about health problems in horses so I can help them, or at least give vets an education description. As I've mentioned, we have a shortage of vets around here - my neighbour struggled just to get her older horse's teeth done last month and the horse was losing weight. The vet who was supposed to come cancelled twice. It's not their fault, there just aren't enough equine vets and they're working insane hours, going from one emergency to the next. My regular equine vet just seems to have given up on Rusty (I'm guessing he just feels he has run out of ideas, and that Rusty is not an emergency situation so he gets pushed to the back burner). There is a new equine vet, but they aren't returning my calls. I'm guessing they're already full. 

So the realitiy is that I need to be able to treat as many things as possible myself. And if there's a small hope that this will at least cure the sheath infection, then that's one step forward. Although, given how long he's had this, I may have to repeat the treatment. Oh joy. 

Honestly, it's not that bad. Whatever it takes to make him comfortable.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I can tell you from past experiences, kidney disease can disguise itself as early colic , gas colic. Get the blood work done asap . A Vet bill may be expensive but its better than a dead horse.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> I can tell you from past experiences, kidney disease can disguise itself as early colic , gas colic. Get the blood work done asap . A Vet bill may be expensive but its better than a dead horse.


I did that. Already done. I don't know how else to say it. I'm not trying to avoid vet bills. Blood work was DONE. Everything was normal.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> I did that. Already done. I don't know how else to say it. I'm not trying to avoid vet bills. Blood work was DONE. Everything was normal.


try adding some salt so he drinks more ? let him free exercise ? You had the blood work done, chiro done , and no one has found anything, very odd indeed! Very frustrating also. Maybe luke warm water to drink ? if you dont want to add the salt, and I would not add very much, or some sort of electrolyte . small amount.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

stevenson said:


> try adding some salt so he drinks more ? let him free exercise ? You had the blood work done, chiro done , and no one has found anything, very odd indeed! Very frustrating also. Maybe luke warm water to drink ? if you dont want to add the salt, and I would not add very much, or some sort of electrolyte . small amount.


He already gets salt. I add it to his hay cubes and he gets a pan of loose salt as well as a salt lick. He's drinking lots. He is in 24/7 turnout on 3 acres with two buddies. Right now, I am using heated buckets because it's below freezing, so he is actually drinking lukewarm water too, lol. 

It's not a dehydration issue. But hey, I have no issue with people throwing ideas at me, because you just never know, there might be something I didn't consider. Unfortunately, I have already done all the things you mention, mostly as my normal horsekeeping practices. And yes, it is frustrating. But I will keep trying to help him feel better.


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