# Seriously dangerous behavior!



## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

I rescued my mare years ago from a very bad situation and she was seriously dangerous and every trainer in my town has tried to work with her with no luck but I've worked with her and we've developed such a bond that she is safe with me in ALL situations even bridleless and bareback, jumping anything, extreme trails, trailering, camping, barrels, competing and winning etc...

EXCEPT one situation! 20% of the time when asked to leave another horse or being left by one she has lived with (she's totally fine being passed/passing randoms) she will all of a sudden start FREAKING OUT DANGEROUSLY! She'll start trying to follow them/not leave and if I make her she'll start bucking higher and higher until I will be for sure bucked off. Then I get off and try to lead her away and she starts running in front of me, so I can't make her go the direction I want and then if I still don't let her go with her buddy she'll rear STRAIGHT up and strike out at my face with her shod hooves. She has no quams about running me over or kicking me if I get behind her while she's freaking out. I know it's anxiety related because she starts to breath super heavy, body stiffens, muscles tense and her eyes look like they are going to bulge out of her head and she grinds her teeth and tosses her head.

I've been training horses since I was 14 even wild ones and understand that she is not trusting my leadership in these situations and is quite literally being consumed by her own anxiety. Also keep in mind me hiring a trainer is not an option as she has zero respect for any trainer but me and does not trust and will actually try to attack them.

I know that in 80% of situations her trust in my leadership supersedes every situation we encounter but that 20% is the most dangerous behaviour I've ever seen in real life on on screen and if you saw it you wouldn't want to get anywhere near her ever. This behaviour usually occurs when she is in heat but not always.

Please share any insights you can! Thank you!

***Also the only solution I've found is to tie her to a tree for about 10 mins until she calms down enough for me to ride/lead her back home. But even then she'll be super tense, calling, etc...and still will NOT go in the direction of away from home.*** She does not bolt or bite me and none of these horses live with her anymore and haven't for over a year.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

If she is only what you consider "safe" with you, have you no consideration for others?

And when she becomes dangerous with you, that 20% of the time, do you think you can truly protect other animals and people from the damage she can do?

From what you describe, this is the type of horse that gets banned from tracks, barns, shows, riding clubs, etc.

Anxiety? Spoiled? Mentally deficient? Who knows. But you didn't likely cause it, at least not completely, and you obviously cannot cure it.

For the miserable horse's sake, your safety, and the safety of everyone and everything else within range, I would put her down.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Wow I just joined this forum and am very sad to see this is my first interaction with a member on here. Assuming the worst from the horse. 

She is safe with people around us. I have taught her to slow to a walk anytime we pass anyone on the trail and she has therefore learned these anxiety attacks or tantrums as you would call them I'm sure must wait until ppl pass.

She has never been banned from or asked to leave any club or event and is very well liked in a variety of disciplines even ones where you have to go out on your own and leave the horses (endurance). You are generalizing when you say 'horses like that'. 

She leads trail rides of 20 horses, is helping me train a youngster, I have ridden her out on trails in nothing but a neck rope alone and with horses with 100% safe outcomes before. These episodes happen maybe 3-5 times per year and that's with me taking her out multiple times per week! 

She's not attacking me she's just flailing and freaking out after I FORCE her to LEAVE the horse. She's not being dangerous to the public.


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## clwhizy (Aug 20, 2014)

This mare sounds absolutely terrifying!!! I have no experience with this type of situation, in fact her extremely dangerous behavior seems to be beyond the scope of fixing on an online forum...if a local trainer isn't able to help you, maybe look outside your local area to find someone with expertise in horses like this one?


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## clwhizy (Aug 20, 2014)

whinniesandnickers said:


> she'll rear STRAIGHT up and strike out at my face with her shod hooves. She has no quams about running me over or kicking me if I get behind her while she's freaking out.


Then in your second post you said



whinniesandnickers said:


> She's not attacking me she's just flailing and freaking out


Sorry, but I'm confused. It does sound like she's attacking you based on your first post.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

My first inclination was to say, "Shoot her and be done with it." and then I thought about what that would provoke and I decided not to post. After 40+ years of dealing with horses, I have learned that I don't care to deal with a horse who misbehaves like this one does, not even once, not once a year, not 3-5 times a year. So, you may not like the answers you get for your problem, but I suspect it's what a lot more than one of us would feel is the appropriate answer. 

IMO the horse can't be fixed and I wouldn't even try. I have too many other nice horses to work with, I won't spend time on one who does these behaviours.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Here is what you should do. Before you separate, ask your riding buddy to wait until you tie her securely to the largest tree you can find. 

Tie her very high so if she rears she won't catch a leg. 

Bring a book and blanket, get a safe distance away and wait it out. 30 minutes, or an hour... do not handle her when she is like that.

I have three buddy sour horses, but nothing to that extreme. They all are willing to leave the yard by themselves, or be ridden. Whoever gets left behind is the one who fusses. Whoever is left is securely stalled where they can't hurt themselves.

Is she pastured by herself or with only one other horse? Horses are less fussy with a herd. If you only have two horses, that is when problems develop.


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## JoyinDriving (Oct 15, 2014)

Whinnies, I can only imagine how difficult discussing this is. I'm also in agreement with the above members. Coming to an online forum - and this one I believe is truly pretty great - you are going to get OBJECTIVE opinions, because there is no one here that has personally invested the blood, sweat, tears and time into this horse except you. None of us have the emotional connection and relationship with this horse except you. You are the one who has come leaps and bounds with this horse and have made all of the progress. 

However, from a purely objective standpoint, this is an extremely dangerous horse that certainly has the potential to seriously hurt you, kill you, or anyone else who may get caught in the crossfire, be that human or animal. 

IMO, even a horse that is 80% perfectly safe...if that remaining 20% is as dangerous and violent as you've led us to believe, that is not a horse that should be kept, for you sake, hers, and the general public. I don't know that a horse with that level of anxiety can be rehabilitated to a consistent and trustworthy state.

I'm sorry.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

A horse that will kick, strike and rear to the point of injuring it's handler is not acceptable.

This mare does not trust or respect you enough. The fact that no one else can handle her needs fixing asap. What happens if you get sick, injured, or die? The horse will go for meat. A horse that only one person can handle is a poorly trained horse. ALWAYS.

The best thing you could do is find a trainer that takes on problem horses who's methods you like and send her away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

> but that 20% is the most dangerous behaviour I've ever seen in real life on on screen and if you saw it you wouldn't want to get anywhere near her ever





> *She has no quams about running me over or kicking me* if I get behind her while she's freaking out.


But yet...


> *She's not attacking me* she's just flailing and freaking out after I FORCE her to LEAVE the horse. *She's not being dangerous to the public*.





> Also keep in mind me hiring a trainer is not an option as she has* zero respect for any trainer but me and does not trust and will actually try to attack them*


Oh my.

This youngster that she is helping you train.... 2 legged or 4 legged? I sure hope nobody else is riding that horse.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

THANKYOU to everyone who responded  Whether we agree or not I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. Please keep in mind that you don't know this horse and don't see how far she has come. She is totally safe with everyone who handles her now unless they are trying to train her on this issue. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that. She used to be dangerous with all vets and farriers and now she has two vets that she's completely safe with and her farrier as well is super impressed with her progress and he even shoes her on all four with out me there. Also she has never injured a person or a horse.

To answer your collective questions she is not maliciously attacking rather she is acting out based on me applying pressure beyond what she can handle 2 times out of 10 in the same situation. She has a spaz in her bubble but I am the only one in the bubble with her and am perpetrating it. If I take the pressure off and say ok let's keep going with your buddy or lets go back to barn she is totally safe. 

I live in a very rural place where there are not many trainers and they all worked with her when she was just rescued and was completely untrusting of humans.

I'm asking for ideas of techniques you've had in calming down horses who have seperation anxiety from their well known paddock mates.

Thank you to the person who mentioned the tree idea! I used that the last two times as it just occured to me to try that and it calmed her down enough that she didn't buck or rear again.

This horse is NOT miserable. She is a very happy, healthy horse who loves life and learning and competing and has earned the right to stay alive. Anyone can handle her even my boyfriend, barn owner/non horse person, ppl on the trail etc...

It's just 2 times out of ten that the situation will make her stress out within her bubble.

Is this a good explanation?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Had a horse rear like that so I began carrying the lunge whip with the lash taped to the handle. When the horse went up it felt that whip hard on it's belly about midway between front and hind legs. That took the horse by surprise as it hurt. Never did it again because there was a consequence.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Get her hormones checked by a vet. I know a horse that lost her mind when she came into season. Gradually got worse until it was all the time. (They didn't pick it up until recently) The mare has some similar symptoms to yours (hissy fits starting in season, rearing, barging, striking, gradually got worse-like very gradually) and has now escalated to the point the horse is out right dangerous and they are trying to treat now they have a diagnosis but having difficulty as she is so dangerous now. Anyway, won't hurt to get it ruled out. I like the tied to the tree idea. No point fighting with her when she's in that state. Tie her safely to a strong tree and take her buddy away from her. Let her have her hissy fit then once she has calmed down, standing with one leg resting take her and put her back with her friend. Rinse repeat. It doesn't really sound so much like an anxiety attact as you stated she 'knows' she's not allowed to misbehave around people and other horses when riding out. Or maybe I misunderstood that bit? Anyway, objectively, part of me agrees with most people here, to dangerous. No horse is worth a human life, but in saying that I know once you are emotionally invested it's a whole other story. Anyway, that's my suggestion.. Just make sure you stay safe.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry, not what you want to hear, but this horse is dangerous and that behavior is totally un acceptable- no excuse
You are seeing her through rose colored glasses, and she sounds like a horse that will work for you, as long as you don't ask her to step out of her comfort zone,, which in this case, is a buddy horse's leaving.

That other horse is her security and leader, and not you.
Does not matter what events you do with her, how she rides with a group, tack, ect, if she rears, strikes at you, and generally forgets you are even there, when her buddy leaves
Can she be fixed? Maybe, with consistent and correct handling, which includes all the buddy sour correction methods, AND, making sure she understands, by the correction having consequences, that bucking , rearing striking, running over you, are never, never acceptable, regardless if every horse on the planet was leaving her


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

My mare was always ten times worse when she was in season, although never never never to the extreme this horse is. That other 80% of the times...is she perfect about leaving? If so you likely have a major hormonal issue going on. If not then you have a training issue in addition to a possible hormone issue.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I usually don't comment on posts like your original, and this is a good example of why.

The story always changes. So...

I wish you the best. Stay safe. Keep others safe. Have fun.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Out of the 4 times this year she's done this she was in raging heat for sure 3 out of the four times. The other time was just before her heat assuming I know how to tell. I'm no breeder. 

When she's not squirting and winking she is always mentally present and listens and respects and responds to me perfectly yes. But I assumed she wasn't in heat that one time as she didn't start the squirting winking till 2 days or so later.

Sorry how is my story changing? I still confirmed that her behaviour during these times is seriously dangerous. I mean to me! Or to anyone trying to train her to leave her buddy. 

This horse is amazing and trustworthy when focused which is 80% of the time no matter what else is going on around her (things that would distract most horses) she will still listen to me totally. But again that 20% of the time when she's squirting and winking its like her eyes glaze over and she's in lala land. Her body gets all rigid and she gets so worked up and spazs on the spot when her buddies go away.

Ok I'll keep following my gut with the tree technique. I tried it again tonight and it obviously worked the other day cause she's still in raging heat and I didn't even have to do it today. But did it anyway and she calmed down way faster and easier

How do you know for sure if they are in heat?

And to the person asking if I teach anyone on her no way. I've been ponying a young gelding from her. Im the only one who rides her based on her history. She may have a past but don't we all? Doesn't mean she deserves to be in the ground!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Can you put her on regumate for an entire season and see if there are NO incidents? If that works, can you get her spayed? Some mares can develop ovaries so large that they are painful. The hormones may make her less reliable and coupled with pain that could cause the bucking thing. Just a thought. 

If regumate does not work then the horse is not having a hormone issue.. she is having a head issue. 

I would tie her safely. Bring the buddy in, then take the buddy away. If she freaks out let her fight with herself and only when she is calm, bring the buddy back.. rinse and repeat.. several times a day for a few days. See if she finally "gets it." 

Is she hobble broke? This is a horse I would hobble break. Again, let her fight herself. If she gets good at moving with hobbles on, put her in a 3 way hobble. This is also a horse I might ask someone who REALLY KNOWS what they are doing to help me lay her down. That can be an epiphany for some horses. 

The suggestions to put her down? I tend to agree but only after removing the hormone thing as a possibility. I will also add I always had mares. In fact I almost always had Chestnut Mares <gasp> and I really never had an issue with the horse being in season. I never let being in season be an excuse. Most of these horses were rescues and I ignored the baggage.. just started over like they were unbroken colts. 

Just, whatever you do, stay safe. Any horse can kill you. A very unpredictable horse has greater opportunity. Be careful and good luck.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A local mare displayed some of this behavior when in standing heat, for maybe 24 hrs. Once we pegged the behavior to the heat cycle, I suggested to the owner she just leave the mare alone during that time. 24 hrs later the horse was back to her old self and a sweetheart.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

boots said:


> I usually don't comment on posts like your original, and this is a good example of why.
> 
> The story always changes. So...
> 
> I wish you the best. Stay safe. Keep others safe. Have fun.


THis.

Now someone has brought up the heat idea, which you have embraced as a reason to down play her behavior, or even justify it
The story has changed from the start , in other details, as responses came in
If you really think she has cystic ovaries or a granuloma tumor, get it checked
Other than that, heat is never an excuse for a mare, You don't excuse a stallion for bad behavior, due to hormones and reproductive drive. Yes, some mares experience slight colic pain, when they ovulate, but that lasts only a few hours, and the horse will ate coilky
The horse is extremely buddy sour, and there are many many posts here on how to deal with that-including that 'patience tree'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Even if you wish to manage heat, then there should only be a few days she acts like this, if indeed it is due to her being in heat.
So far, you said that she does this all the time, when separated from her buddy
and happily rides with other horses the rest of the time.
A horse with ovarian tumors is in pain all the time, thus she would always be acting negatively, not just when separated from buddy.
Good luck, stay safe, but recognize this horse has holes in training_period


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This, from your original post, has nothing to do with heat, and even if in heat, no excuse:

EXCEPT one situation! 20% of the time when asked to leave another horse or being left by one she has lived with (she's totally fine being passed/passing randoms) she will all of a sudden start FREAKING OUT DANGEROUSLY! She'll start trying to follow them/not leave and if I make her she'll start bucking higher and higher until I will be for sure bucked off. Then I get off and try to lead her away and she starts running in front of me, so I can't make her go the direction I want and then if I still don't let her go with her buddy she'll rear STRAIGHT up and strike out at my face with her shod hooves. She has no quams about running me over or kicking me if I get behind her while she's freaking out. I know it's anxiety related because she starts to breath super heavy, body stiffens, muscles tense and her eyes look like they are going to bulge out of her head and she grinds her teeth and tosses her head.'

Even a stud, when we were hand breeding, did not get to rear, strike out at me , or try to run me over.
This is a very, very buddy sour mare, who has little true respect. Treat her with regumate if you wish, but it won't solve the above problem


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Mares that behave completely irrationally when in season are ruled by their hormones - they aren't like humans that you can sit and talk too - and lets face it there's plenty of humans that choose to ignore advice on controlling hormonal drive
Its likely to last for up to 4 days of their heat cycle and has nothing to do with pain
I would put her on Regumate (I think Altresyn is cheaper) and see how it affects her behavior.
If it doesn't work then you can at least eliminate hormones as the cause of the behavior and look at other options


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Mares that behave completely irrationally when in season are ruled by their hormones - they aren't like humans that you can sit and talk too - and lets face it there's plenty of humans that choose to ignore advice on controlling hormonal drive
> Its likely to last for up to 4 days of their heat cycle and has nothing to do with pain
> I would put her on Regumate (I think Altresyn is cheaper) and see how it affects her behavior.
> If it doesn't work then you can at least eliminate hormones as the cause of the behavior and look at other options


I agree that the re productive drive is very strong, and if you need to suppress heat, then do so.
I have never put a mare on regumate, as I expect a mare, with training, to ignor those reproductive drives/hormones, just like a stallion, when ridden and handled
The problem with mares, is that when not in heat, they are much like a gelding, thus many people, while they would not handle or rider a stallion, who is always under the influence of hormones, ride/own mares, and then really aren't capable of dealing with an intact breeding animal, when that mare does come into heat.
I'm not saying to skip trying heat suppression, or even jank those ovaries, because if a mare is to the point of striking or running over a person when in heat, she should not be capable of reproduction, JMO


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Why oh why when people ask for advice on a subject such as *Seriously Dangerous Behaviour* and when they get replies start to make excuses for the behaviour - even denying the behaviour is dangerous? 

I am in the old school where it doesn't matter if a horse has a cystic ovary, ulcers or any of the myriad of reasons people come up with, _whilst I am around it has to behave in a civilised manner. _

This horse might not be actually attacking you as in seeing you and charging you, it os however, totally ignoring you and has no respect for you at all. 

She needs taking to a tree and being tied and left to stew in her own juices until she has relaxed.


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## ManicMini (May 4, 2015)

Let's say you have the horse tied to the tree for hours and he's showing signs of relaxation. You release the horse from being tied and he goes right back to pacing the fence line relentlessly and calling for his friends. What would be the next step then?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My mare turns into a raging lunatic when in season. Much worse than any other mare I have ever ridden or worked with. I ended up getting her ultrasound,which was normal. Ask any of my riding friends... she is like a completely different horse. It only started this year so I really think it was physical, even if the vet said she was fine other than having very active ovaries.

Some mares need regumate. The hormone issues will make separation anxiety worse. Although even gelding s can have separation problems as well. The gelding I have in for training will rear and dig a hole if tied apart from others, even if they are in sight.

I suspect you will still have issues with the horse on regumate, but they probably won't be as severe. Try working on her issues when she isn't in season. Keep a diary of her behavior. Rate how bad her behavior is and see if there is a pattern.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie said:


> I agree that the re productive drive is very strong, and if you need to suppress heat, then do so.
> I have never put a mare on regumate, as I expect a mare, with training, to ignor those reproductive drives/hormones, just like a stallion, when ridden and handled
> The problem with mares, is that when not in heat, they are much like a gelding, thus many people, while they would not handle or rider a stallion, who is always under the influence of hormones, ride/own mares, and then really aren't capable of dealing with an intact breeding animal, when that mare does come into heat.
> I'm not saying to skip trying heat suppression, or even jank those ovaries, because if a mare is to the point of striking or running over a person when in heat, she should not be capable of reproduction, JMO


Unless you've actually dealt with a mare that's completely ruled by her hormones to the point that she's incapable of being rational you have no clue what they're like
For the cost of the Regumate the OP can see if it makes a difference - and if it does she's spared herself and the mare a whole lot of trouble. If it doesn't then she can look at other ideas
I believe she's already tried tying her up to a tree and it did no good at all. Much the same as tying a teenager that's manically obsessed with some pop star to a tree would do no good
The horse is behaving irrationally, she's over reacting and can't control herself. Doing things that make her even more reactive will be counter productive and only make her more dangerous


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> Unless you've actually dealt with a mare that's completely ruled by her hormones to the point that she's incapable of being rational you have no clue what they're like


This needs repeating.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I have never in my life met a mare or stallion that can't be taught to behave. I even know a mare that had several issues and acted like a stud, and even she was a good solid riding horse.

If she has severe health issues, such as brain cancer, that modifies her behavior to the point where she is not a rational creature, she needs treatment. In this case she would be a lunatic on the ground and with other horses.

If not, she needs to be trained, which I beleive I'd what's happening here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

ManicMini said:


> Let's say you have the horse tied to the tree for hours and he's showing signs of relaxation. You release the horse from being tied and he goes right back to pacing the fence line relentlessly and calling for his friends. What would be the next step then?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Put him back is the easy answer. But I am not nearly as concerned about the behavior of the horse that gets left behind as I am the horse that is expected to leave its buddies and go to work.

If the horse was calm and quiet when you released him and walked calmly alongside you back to the paddock that is all you should expect. If the horse started fussing as soon as you approached to turn him loose it would be an about-face to leave him longer.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> This needs repeating.


Sorry, but mare like that need to be spayed
There are some stallions, very well bred, that had to be gelded, because they could not focus on the job , ruled by hormones.
I think the trotting horse, John Henry was such a case
The point being, in the beginning of this saga, heat was not even mentioned, and the horse was said to do this, just out of separation anxiety -period.
For convenience, to have a show mare focus, many are on regumate, as it will make them more consistant
If I truly had a mare that was , not just a bit off , when in heat, but down right dangerous, she would have those ovaries removed, just like a bad tempered stud,, so matter how well bred, is gelded
What happened to these mares in days gone by, before 'hormonal help??
I am not going into using regumate or not, if that works for those that wish to go that route, but totally disagree that hormones/heat, should excuse a mare form being dangerous, like this one
Funny thing is, (and there was an article in Equus on this ) soon as a mare acted up, she was declared in heat, or excused her behavior because of heat, and when a gelding acted up, he was immediately declared 'proud cut'
While this was true in a few cases, very often those mares were not even in heat, and those geldings that mounted mares, had normal testosterone level
What they lacked, was mannering and wet saddle blankets
Having had breast cancer, I for one, would not want to be messing with Regumate That mare would learn to ignor hormones when handled or ridden, same as a STALLION, or like a stallion, be neutered 

Nowhere did the OP say that during part of the month, she behaves normally when her buddy rides off, unless that now is an add on.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Unless you've actually dealt with a mare that's completely ruled by her hormones to the point that she's incapable of being rational you have no clue what they're like
> For the cost of the Regumate the OP can see if it makes a difference - and if it does she's spared herself and the mare a whole lot of trouble. If it doesn't then she can look at other ideas
> I believe she's already tried tying her up to a tree and it did no good at all. Much the same as tying a teenager that's manically obsessed with some pop star to a tree would do no good
> The horse is behaving irrationally, she's over reacting and can't control herself. Doing things that make her even more reactive will be counter productive and only make her more dangerous


Simple-start by tying her up when she is not in heat, regularly, for hours, until she stands quietly 
By the way, since when do 'we' even know that is mare only acts like this when in heat, including the tying problem?
How have' we' concluded that the rest of the time she accepts separation, ties fine by herself??????
Go back to Cheri's post on the patience tree. Untie that horse while it is acting up, and all you have done, is reward the wrong behavior
If the OP really believes the horse only acts like this when in heat, then start by tying her up when she is not in heat-alone, and she how she acts.
Pretty simple to determine if her actions are more based on simply being buddy sour


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> *The point being, in the beginning of this saga, heat was not even mentioned,* and the horse was said to do this, just out of separation anxiety -period.


I think you need to go back and read the OP - heat was definitely mentioned.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Its not about teaching them to behave if they have a HORMONAL PROBLEM. My Dr put my on birth control when i was a young teen to control my severe Ehem, girly times. Well within 24 hours i was a nut job. i put a hole in the wall for dropping a pencil. within the week i tried to kill myself. once i was off it i was back to normal. i have tried every type of hormonal birth control and it always yields the same response. to this day i will become a dangerous loon, no matter what is said. worst part is im aware of what's happening but its like im no longer in the drivers seat. im no longer in control of my own actions, almost like being possessed and its frightening.

If the mare has a hormonal imbalance she wont be able to control her behavior. you cant train an animal to control itself when it cant control itself on its own free will. My mare started to act unpredictable under saddle gradually over the past cuple of years. her behavior went away in the fall and started back up in the spring. I was looking at having her spayed until she was diagnosed wit navicular.

I say try the regumate (or depo shot, they it last longer and safer on the owner). IF its hormonal, there should be a difference and you should be able to fix the holes in her training. if that is indeed the issue look at getting her spayed (they just remove the ovaries, easier than gelding and no stitches needed). 

BUT if that is NOT whats wrong with her you may have a horse that will need to be either put down or turned loose onto the back 40 to live out her days feral and away from people. dose Loco weed grow in your area?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> I think you need to go back and read the OP - heat was definitely mentioned.


Yea, it was mentioned, after it was brought up

How would you deal with a young stallion that was hormone driven?
I've shown several, and some are harder to get shown at first, esp around mares then others, but if you get that respect, it can be done.
You then can chose to use hormonal treatment, for mares (although I have heard of stallions rendered infertile, by being also given regumate ), to make showing/dealing with them 'easier', but for a mare or a stallion to act that disrespectful and dangerous, there is much more involved then just hormones.
We have become a society where drugs are the first choice, rather than the final end attempt at salvage. That includes children. How many are on Ritalin?
Confine horses, have abnormal feedings schedules and then give them ulcer medication, or put on a cribbing collar if they start to go stir crazy from confinement and start cribbing. 
A mare acts up, put her on hormonal treatment, versus getting her trues respect, or chosing to ride a gelding instead
A mare, like a stallion, is an intact breeding animal, but unlike a stallion, is only under the influence of those hormones for part of a year and then only for part of a month. Because of this, many people wind up riding mares, unable to deal with their reproductive urges, while, because stallions are always under the influence of hormones, they are mainly ridden and handled by pros
It is also why geldings are the main sex for non pros and youth
I have ridden mainly mares, and I love them. Once you get their true respect, they will give you way more try than a gelding (generality, as there always are some exceptions )
If someone chooses to use hormonal treatment on mares, that is fine by me, but they should also disclose that fact, if they ever sell that mare- telling the buyer that the horse is not manageable if allowed to come into heat
We rode all all broodmares, before they were ever put in the broodmare band. Any mare that proved to be ruled by her hormones, would never be part of the breeding program, anymore than a bad minded stallion
Sorry, cal,me old school, but I don't care how hormone driven that mare is, rearing, running over me, etc is simply never acceptable.
Only exception would be a granuloma tumor, and that would be dealt with by a vet


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

For anyone interested, here is some info where Regumate was used on stallions, to modify their behavior
Regu-Mate Studies | TheHorse.com

I know of cases where someone bred to some world famous stallion by transported semen only to have that stallion infertile, due to having been give Regumate
It is also commonly given to geldings , apparently, on the hunter jumper circuit, and elsewhere

Old horsemen would just shake their heads. Not relevant to this post, except to show that mares are not the only ones people try to manipulate behavior in, using hormonal treatment
Regu-Mate Studies | TheHorse.com


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

I can't believe everyone just wants to give up! What happened to you all? Are you all nuts? Is there a loony disease going about? So what if she isn't perfect. If all she could be is a pasture ornament, so be it- don't kill her because of what man has caused!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

LilyandPistol said:


> I can't believe everyone just wants to give up! What happened to you all? Are you all nuts? Is there a loony disease going about? So what if she isn't perfect. If all she could be is a pasture ornament, so be it- don't kill her because of what man has caused!


If the current handler cannot manage the mare's behaviors and keep at least others safe, and won't give it to someone who may be able to... What do you suggest?

A pasture ornament? And when it needs basic vet care? Trimming? And the behaviors haven't been corrected? You would ask others to put their health and safety at risk for a handler or owner's feelings? That's why some vets, farriers, and other fire some owners.


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

I don't have any advice really, but I would just like to say to all those who are saying to kill her- I suggest you look up "A pony called Satan" it is a inspiring story (still developing) about a pony named satan who was sold on Craigslist, apparently "evil".


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

I am going to have to research equine hormones. In the very beginning it was stated that the mare freaks out when buddy leaves. Was great before hand, then when given time to chill out, is fine.
I had no idea there was any animal who's hormones turn on and off like that; and only in one specific situation. 

I honestly do pray that you figure out how to deal with this behavior, before that hoof accidentally hits your head, or she can't help but run over you. If you are killed or permanently disabled, someone else will have to work with her, even during those freak outs, since you are no longer able. You need to understand that the person then in charge will either have her euthanized or sent to slaughter. Maybe set something up in advance that she be put down, I know it would break your heart if she had to suffer the horrors of slaughter.


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## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

boots said:


> If the current handler cannot manage the mare's behaviors and keep at least others safe, and won't give it to someone who may be able to... What do you suggest?
> 
> A pasture ornament? And when it needs basic vet care? Trimming? And the behaviors haven't been corrected? You would ask others to put their health and safety at risk for a handler or owner's feelings? That's why some vets, farriers, and other fire some owners.


I'm not even going to argue. Give up, whatever. But OP sounds like they really care for this horse. You don't just up and kill something you care for. I'm with OP.


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## LifeInTheIrons (Mar 28, 2015)

The thing is, with a horse who has the bad habits and behavior issues you described...well...it's pretty much impossible to cure them completely of their disrespect and bad habits, especially if it's been going on a while. You mentioned in your original post that "she's not allowed to freak out until she's away from other horses or people"...she shouldn't be allowed to freak out, PERIOD. She needs to be respectful away from people and near people. When these behaviors pop up, you need to nip them in the bud IMMEDIATELY or they get very dangerous very quickly. Shockingly quickly, really. If you can't send her to a trainer, and you can't get her to shape up, then something has to be done. Even though you say she doesn't flip out around other people or horses, what if one day she does? Horses are unpredictable, after all. She could gravely injure you, herself, or worse, another person or their horse. 

It sounds like your mare is unhappy. Horses aren't happy unless they know their place in the herd, and she doesn't seem to know her place. A horse that "respects" you wouldn't DARE to try and run you over, rear, buck, etc. or they would face the wrath of their alpha. "Bond" is not enough. Bond does nothing for you and your horse's partnership if you don't have respect along with that bond. 

For the safety and happiness of you, your horse, and other riders and horses, I suggest letting this mare go. I'm so sorry, I hate saying things like that, but when their behavior and disrespect has gotten that dangerous and out of hand, it's not worth risking your life or someone else's.


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## LifeInTheIrons (Mar 28, 2015)

You don't need to kill her...definitely not. I had a difficult horse too, I understand. But I would suggest just letting her be a pasture ornament maybe? I'm not sure, but I wish you luck.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

LilyandPistol said:


> I don't have any advice really, but I would just like to say to all those who are saying to kill her- I suggest you look up "A pony called Satan" it is a inspiring story (still developing) about a pony named satan who was sold on Craigslist, apparently "evil".


I'm good with that. But with the pony, someone who could fix or manage those behaviors got the pony. Not an ongoing situation of "years" in which the OP describes what she calls "seriously dangerous behavior." 

I feel bad for the horse. No one is available to address it's anxiety. No one is (apparently) making life calmer for this one.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

LilyandPistol said:


> I don't have any advice really, but I would just like to say to all those who are saying to kill her- I suggest you look up "A pony called Satan" it is a inspiring story (still developing) about a pony named satan who was sold on Craigslist, apparently "evil".



I would like to point out that everyone is giving her options, they are saying if you can't fix this then it would be best to put her to sleep.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I am astounded that so many people seem to think that just trying Regumate isn't worth the effort
Its also hogwash to say that all mares and stallions that have hormone related issues can be trained out of them - I've worked with some better stud handlers than most and they had stallions that could be treated like a regular gelding and they had some that you would never trust. When I see comments like this I can only assume that they're made by people who haven't had experience with a lot of different mares and stallions
I don't know if this horses problems are hormonal but if she was mine I'd certainly be looking into it before I tied her up to a tree every time she was in season. 
I have a mare here that is easy enough to handle when in season but is totally disruptive amongst the other horses, goes hysterical every time one is taken out of her sight (you can take her away from them) and gets them all stressed out because they feed of her mood. The rest of the time she couldn't care less where they are. On Regumate she is a totally different horse and the whole 'herd' is happy and calm again
If you use it correctly its no risk to humans at all.
I'm really amused that anyone thinks you can train a horse to not be hormonal - try telling a woman that suffers with severe PMS to get over herself and deal with it and you're likely to get a fork stuck in your eye


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sounds like a spoiled brat imo.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Regarding "Satan" pony. A) it's a pony... not that you should take crap from a pony but 3 hands or so taller is a HUGE difference B) pony was pretty much unhandled as opposed to spoiled and C) pony went to someone experienced and willing to do what it takes to fix the issues.

Honest that pony doesn't sound too bad either.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

What Satan pony?

I may have missed out on a good story.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

If a person becomes so hysterical that they can't control themselves there are meds for that and no amount of counseling would help them until they calm down. So why not try the Regumate ? I am not saying that the mare doesn't have issues that still may need to be worked on. I can understand that the OP has put a lot of effort into this mare already and doesn't want to give up on her now. Going on a trail ride and having the other horse go off in another direction might be too much for her to handle. She might try riding with another horse in a smaller space like an arena and have the other horse "go away" but only to the other end.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

anndankev said:


> What Satan pony?
> 
> I may have missed out on a good story.


I just googled it. Came right up. Basically person wrote a funny add about their pony that they called Satan and what to do not to do (Loads well if you can catch him. Enjoys treats, may or may not get a chunk of your hand too) Just inexperienced owners. Pony ended up being taken in by someone who knew what they were doing and is doing very well. Not as exciting as it sounds lol.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Textan49 said:


> If a person becomes so hysterical that they can't control themselves there are meds for that and no amount of counseling would help them until they calm down. So why not try the Regumate ? I am not saying that the mare doesn't have issues that still may need to be worked on. I can understand that the OP has put a lot of effort into this mare already and doesn't want to give up on her now. Going on a trail ride and having the other horse go off in another direction might be too much for her to handle. She might try riding with another horse in a smaller space like an arena and have the other horse "go away" but only to the other end.


If a situation arises and someone becomes hysterical then treatment use to be an open handed slap across the face to snap them out of it. 

It works. I had cause to do it on one occasion!

In another situations if someone takes control and issues orders the situation is usually brought under control.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> I am in the old school where it doesn't matter if a horse has a cystic ovary, ulcers or any of the myriad of reasons people come up with, _whilst I am around it has to behave in a civilised manner. _
> 
> 
> 
> She needs taking to a tree and being tied and left to stew in her own juices until she has relaxed.


Can I get a big AMEN!?


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

jaydee said:


> I am astounded that so many people seem to think that just trying Regumate isn't worth the effort
> 
> I'm really amused that anyone thinks you can train a horse to not be hormonal - try telling a woman that suffers with severe PMS to get over herself and deal with it and you're likely to get a fork stuck in your eye


Interesting, I see quite a few posts recommending Regumate and very few that actually state the opinion that Regumate is useless. Simply because one does not specifically recommend it, doesn't automatically oppose it. I suggest doubts about hormones, but I would try Regumate immediately. If that didn't work I would very carefully track the mare's cycles and not ride on the specific days. If that didn't work and the mare is safe to handle on the ground (by anyone), I would make her a pasture pet.

As to your amusement at people talking about training a horse not to be hormonal, I didn't see anyone say that said you could train hormones, just that you might be able to train a horse to work through them. Just as the majority of women do.
It is the OP that says she can keep the mare from freaking out until the other horses are gone.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> If a situation arises and someone becomes hysterical then treatment use to be an open handed slap across the face to snap them out of it.
> 
> It works. I had cause to do it on one occasion!
> 
> In another situations if someone takes control and issues orders the situation is usually brought under control.


 That can work in some situations but I have seen some cases where the "slapper" better have several people backing him up. I am just saying if this is partially hormonal and that can be eliminated it would be easier and safer to make the mare tow the mark. I have had very little problem with mares and the ones that did act up in heat I didn't ask much of but expected what I did ask to be done right. It didn't take them long to get the idea that they certainly can work any time of the month


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Since I relly dislike Regumate for anything but the retention of pregnancy, I would first try Raspberry Leaves for a couple of months and see if that works. After that, and before the expense of Regumate, I would try a shot of Depo Provera and see if that made a difference. If it did, I'd give her a shot every month to 6 weeks. I would save Regumate for the last resort, it is a known carcinogen and can have unwanted side effects on humans who are careless when handling it.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

If people started putting horses down every time they had separation anxiety, we wouldn't have any horses left.

Hormone problems will make separation anxiety worse. Put the mare on regumate, at least short term. Separate her every day with her tied to the tree. Once the issue is nonexistent with her on regumate, you can take her off of it, and try retraining her without it.

The pony I have in for training screams, paces, rears, and pulls back when tied. The first two days he was here, he ran the fence for 24 hours straight, screaming and calling for his missing buddies. He didn't eat for three days. I put him on ulcer meds as he was to upset to eat. I thought he was going to kill himself, running that much. He gets tied and separated, as he has really severe separation anxiety. If you tried riding him and separating, he probably would hurt someone. Doesn't mean he needs to be put down. 

You have to be smart and just not mess with them, if they are acting like a complete idiot. Tie them and leave them. He is the worst horse I have ever met about separating. My mares fuss, but at least you can handle them. You can see the panic in his eyes.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

My horse gets a personality transplant when she has a strong heat; early spring and late summer. Goes from being a laidback horse who hacks alone without any trouble to a maniac, shouting for the others, bouncing around, and she's sharp as a tack to school. She's not dangerous like the OP's mare; you can ride and do all those things, and I do, but it's unpleasant for everyone. The horse is trained to the nines, but like Jaydee said, hormones can cause her to malfunction anyway.

This will sound insane, but a friend recommended I try her on a homeopathic remedy called Tiger Lilly c30. Why not, I said. I acquired the stuff and gave it to her the first day I noticed her starting her heat cycle. I dosed as per the recommendations (if anyone is interested in the details, ask), and this is the first year in the 16 years I have had this mare that she has not turned into a lunatic on a strong heat. 

I do not understand homeopathy, and if you read up on how it works, it sounds bonkers, but wow. I'm floored by the results. 

But yeah, if your mare is also trying to kill you, it's also a training problem. For all the shouting and piaffing my horse does when having a meltdown, she would not dare try to kick or run me over.

Deal with the strong heats, with Regumate or whatever else, and then train your horse to not throw her feet around.


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> If a situation arises and someone becomes hysterical then treatment use to be an open handed slap across the face to snap them out of it.


I know we are all treading a very fine line here. However. Just because a slap solved a problem with hysterics once does not mean it is appropriate for every situation. And we cannot fully equate a mare's hormonal cycle to a woman's, but there certainly are parallels to be drawn and lessons to be learned. For the record, I am not one who is opposed to hard physical correctuon when it is called for. With horses.



KsKatt said:


> As to your amusement at people talking about training a horse not to be hormonal, I didn't see anyone say that said you could train hormones, just that you might be able to train a horse to work through them. Just as *the majority of women do.*
> .


Key words bolded. Some women cope fine with hormonal fluctuations. Some suffer from PMS. Some suffer from an alternate-universe of a condition known as PMDD (searchable for those who want to know more.). PMDD can render a woman non-functional, and I can't believe that it is not the same for some mares. I do not excuse bad behavior in women or in horses, but I would say "For bunny's sake, get some help!" IF thishorse is suffering from hormonal dominance so badly she cannotthink straight then she is incapable of fully changing her ways with "help."



thesilverspear said:


> .
> 
> Deal with the strong heats, with Regumate or whatever else, and then train your horse to not throw her feet around.


So, this^^^^. At least consult a vet. Maybe this horse IS just a spoiled brat, but how can you know unless you know?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I am astounded that so many people seem to think that just trying Regumate isn't worth the effort
> Its also hogwash to say that all mares and stallions that have hormone related issues can be trained out of them - I've worked with some better stud handlers than most and they had stallions that could be treated like a regular gelding and they had some that you would never trust. When I see comments like this I can only assume that they're made by people who haven't had experience with a lot of different mares and stallions
> I don't know if this horses problems are hormonal but if she was mine I'd certainly be looking into it before I tied her up to a tree every time she was in season.
> I have a mare here that is easy enough to handle when in season but is totally disruptive among st the other horses, goes hysterical every time one is taken out of her sight (you can take her away from them) and gets them all stressed out because they feed of her mood. The rest of the time she couldn't care less where they are. On Regumate she is a totally different horse and the whole 'herd' is happy and calm again
> ...


Look, the OP can try regumate, and if that offers a solution-great.
Far as studs and mares that can't be handled, they seriously need to be neutered, so they don't pass on those genetics-I don't care how great of a breeding those animals have. MInd is every bit as important as ability, esp if you are raising 'user friendly horses'
Horses don't get PMS. They just have two main drives (mares and stallions-food and reproduction )
Yes, out of the five stallions we raised and trained, there was one I gelded.He was halter/race bred, and while he had a lot of great athletic ability, was very conformation lly correct, he had times when there were.no brains home'
His babies were also hot. Even though he won some major awards, I had him gelded, as I believe in breeding for mind as a major selection, and learned from that mistake
As for mares, yes, some were more difficult as fillies to work with/ride when in heat, but all learned to ride , both on trails and showing, regardless of time of month. I do use raspberry leaves, but other than that, it is wet saddle blankets and clear boundaries
Far as either a stallion or mare ever charging me, striking with their front legs, trying to run me over-sorry, too many good horses in the World, JMO


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

thesilverspear said:


> My horse gets a personality transplant when she has a strong heat; early spring and late summer. Goes from being a laidback horse who hacks alone without any trouble to a maniac, shouting for the others, bouncing around, and she's sharp as a tack to school. She's not dangerous like the OP's mare; you can ride and do all those things, and I do, but it's unpleasant for everyone. The horse is trained to the nines, but like Jaydee said, hormones can cause her to malfunction anyway.
> 
> This will sound insane, but a friend recommended I try her on a homeopathic remedy called Tiger Lilly c30. Why not, I said. I acquired the stuff and gave it to her the first day I noticed her starting her heat cycle. I dosed as per the recommendations (if anyone is interested in the details, ask), and this is the first year in the 16 years I have had this mare that she has not turned into a lunatic on a strong heat.
> 
> ...


Well, if you can actually prove homeopathy works, there is a million dollars up-no one has done so yet.
True double blind studies have shown homeopathy to be no more effective than the placebo effect-how can it be, when there is absolutely nothing left of the original substance in those dilutions, and what about the millions of other atoms floating around, that could also become part of that 'water memory dilution?
How do you know that your mare, like many, with time, learn to control that hormonal drive? Smilie used to show strong heat as a three year old, squatting and peeing whenever our stallion even whinnied at another 
mare
Now her heats are pretty much 'silent'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am truly amazed at how many people condone a mare striking, trying to run a person over, just because she is in heat
Regumate has a place, to maybe make a mare more competitive and consistent while in heat, but if you have a mare with this extreme behavior, something is wrong with the way she has been handled/ridden or the mare needs to be removed from the gene pool.
Spay that mare, so there is no chance she can ever produce another horse like her. You then have the equivalent of a gelding.


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

I don't think anybody is condoning her behavior. If this was a horse who normally rides perfectly and suddenly develops a bucking issue what is the first thing we tell them? Rule out pain, rule out health issues, address training holes. 

If a horse is resitant to the left he might be a brat. He might not have the knowledge. Hemighthave a severe chiropractic issue the precludes him from bending properly.

That is not this horse, but the principle applies.


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## galant (Aug 19, 2015)

I rekon she had a massive trauma when separated from her mother or some other buddy and someone gave her very bad time just the moment she was alone after being separated. Give her lot of love and every time she has to move away from the buddy musn t be for work or a fight, just for some good relaxing time and rewards. Put her in a paddock and take the buddy away then go there with food, put some music have a few cigarettes and a drink, stay with her doing nothing, just talk or sing to her from time to time. Let her realize if alone she ll have good time!


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## Fahntasia (Dec 19, 2011)

have you tried giving her magnesium oxide? it worked like a charm on my mare. she is calm as a cucumber now. Apparently WHEN it works it means they are magnesium deficient. Mind you my mare wasn't crazy because of a heat cycle, she was randomly loopy, and not dangerous. More like *look mom theres gremlins in those corners over there.... and im sure thats a shark in that puddle....SPOOK* lol....


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

There was no mention of this horse behaving "dangerously" *only* when she was in season. I read it as a consistent thing she did on a regular basis.

Some mares can be very difficult when they are in season. This might be caused by cystic ovaries or unbalanced hormones or, it can be caused by the hormonal change making the horse more challenging because it has no respect if out of its comfort zone. 

I certainly would try Regumate and also magnesium they can help but they will not cure separation anxiety.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

whinniesandnickers I guess its natural to defend the behaviour of your horse. You obviously have doubts, that is why you asked a question of this forum. The fact that the horse can be taken out dozens of times, but only a few times a year display this dangerous behaviour is itself worrying because it is unpredictable. 

Many years ago a friend of mine had a lovely pony, she could do anything with it. But once in a while the pony would leap in the air and bolt, usually changing direction mid-air. She wouldn't stop till she was exhausted or something stopped her, and usually she would just jump a gate. After a few years it was discovered the pony had a brain tumour.

My point is. . . you may not be able to fix this pony, and every time you take her out lives are at risk. Mainly yours but also hers and anyone who happens to get in the way. You seriously need to consider your options. There are a lot of good horses out there that need good homes.


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> There was no mention of this horse behaving "dangerously" *only* when she was in season. I read it as a consistent thing she did on a regular basis..


This is true, but it is also a natural train of thought to wonder if these only-occasional episodes coincide with heat cycles, because it seems like "random" things with horses are rarely as "random" as some people think.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Well, if you can actually prove homeopathy works, there is a million dollars up-no one has done so yet.
> True double blind studies have shown homeopathy to be no more effective than the placebo effect-how can it be, when there is absolutely nothing left of the original substance in those dilutions, and what about the millions of other atoms floating around, that could also become part of that 'water memory dilution?
> How do you know that your mare, like many, with time, learn to control that hormonal drive? Smilie used to show strong heat as a three year old, squatting and peeing whenever our stallion even whinnied at another
> mare
> Now her heats are pretty much 'silent'


Like I said, I was totally sceptical. But something has changed, and the placebo doesn't work on animals, so there you have it. 

The horse was 21 years old (earlier this year) when I tried the homeopathic stuff. She hasn't changed a lot since she was 7 (when I bought her). The only thing this past spring I did differently with regards to her management was giving her the homeopathic stuff. 

You're meant to give the stuff when you notice the mare going into heat. You give it once per day for the following three days. It should reduce the in season behaviour. On the next heat, you should only have to give it to the horse the first day. After that, the heats should get progressively more 'silent' and you might only need to give it once on the occasional one. 

With my horse, you notice that she's whinnying for other horses when you have her at the barn alone when the others are out. Normally, she could not care less. Over the next couple days, the heat intensifies, and she acts like being out by herself is entirely unreasonable. Not striking or kicking, but spooky, on her toes, whinnying her head off. Still ridable; it just sucks. Then the heat dies down over another couple days, and normal service resumes. The whole cycle takes about five or six days and it's at its worst in those early spring heats, like March or April. The heats aren't as strong mid-summer -- you notice it, but she's not as sharp, jumpy, or clingy to other horses -- and then she gets a couple strong ones in August/September, before they tail off for the winter. 

When I got the Tiger Lilly this past spring, I gave her the stuff as per the above directions. The next day, the horse was marginally saner. Within three days, she was her usual self. On subsequent heats, I give her the stuff the first day her behaviour starts to reflect her in-season-ness, and the following day, she is back on planet Earth. 

It sounds nuts. I would not believe me, either.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

thesilverspear said:


> Like I said, I was totally sceptical. But something has changed, and the placebo doesn't work on animals, so there you have it.


You are, of course, correct that an animal will not have a 'placebo effect.'

But, it will have an effect of the owner. 

A placebo can be given to a horse, the owner told it is "x" med to calm the horse, and they owner will be more confident in handling the horse and the issue goes away. As though the mere expectation of improvement resulted in the expectation of certain behavior equaled improved behavior.

I witnessed this with a vet I worked for, and he quoted studies.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

boots said:


> You are, of course, correct that an animal will not have a 'placebo effect.'
> 
> But, it will have an effect of the owner.
> 
> ...



Very true!


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Just try the stuff on your mares.

I have zero confidence problems handling the horse, whether she is in season, out of season, or at any other time. I've not changed my handling of her in any way, and the thought that I'm acting arguably different because of some homeopathic thing I gave her is laughable. You, of course, are unlikely to believe that to be true, me being a random person on the internet (I have real life friends on another forum, but not this one), and you will argue that there is a more rational explanation for my claims. And so it will go.

As I said above, I would not believe me either.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

In her first post the OP says that the mare is perfectly fine 80% of the time and the 20% when she sees the bad behavior is mostly when she's in heat and only relates to her attitude towards this group of other horses
The rest of the time she sounds like a very useful little horse

Yes Smilie we know that horses don't get PMS - but PMS is hormone related just as extreme behavior seen in some mares is also hormone related. If you want something more similar to compare then research Nymphomania in women.
If Regumate worked then spaying could be an option - but no sense spaying a horse without first seeing if it would be effective
You cannot expect all horses to come out of the same cookie cooker mold and behave in the way the book says they should - or the way a human thinks they should based on their own very limited experiences.
So far I've seen no real advice on training this horse to deal with its attitude other than tying it up which she's already done and to no great success 
You say you have had success retraining problem horses like this Smilie so please explain how you did it?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

As I already said Jaydee, in other posts, unlike Cheri, I had the luxury of both training horses that we ourself raised, thus came with no baggage, plus I culled and selected for mind as much as any other trait.
Hense, we rode all mare before they went into our breeding program-and yes, none were supported by hormone manipulation.
Since I showed App, and AQHA was an allowable outcross, I did buy some AQHA mares, and all were first ridden.
One was strongly Go Man Go bred, and proved to be un predictable at times. She did not go into our breeding program
Some horses, even though they ride out alone, become extremely un predictable when ridden with other horses
They either want to be right up the rear end of another horse, or panic if that other horse goes another direction.
I am not saying not to use Regumate, if that keeps the OP safe and solves the problem, BUT I really think there is a bigger issue, far as the horse not being truly 'broke; and with holes in basics
She only freaks out after buddy leaves and she is a short distance from that group of horses. Those other horses close by, keep her somewhat from going into buddy separation reaction, and once they also leave, she does those extreme behaviors. That to me is a horse that is buddy sour,regardless if she rides out alone
In fact, it is also why I never ride a horse out with other horses before that horse is 100% in transferring that herd security/leadership to me, when ridden
What would I do?
Get her more solid in body control in her comfort zone. 
Tie her up, each and every day, alone, for some time
When she is in heat, ride her in an enclosed area and make her focus on you
Certainly, not ride her out, if you will need to dismount and reward her for acting up
In other words, "ride where you can, until you can ride where you now cannot.
We train a horse each and every time we ride or handle them
Once, riding out, where I was forced to get off, would be enough to make me get that horse more solid before doing so again, otherwise you are just enabling that behavior
Again, I ask, what happened to mares like this in the past, before hormone manipulation? There are many great performance mares from the past and now, and that was because they saw lots of wet saddle blankets, heat was never used to rationalize dangerous behavior
In fact, Bedouins traced horse lines through the mares, not the stallions, favoring them as great war horses, and I'm quite sure they did not have Regumate!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here we go
"I know that in 80% of situations her trust in my leadership supersedes every situation we encounter but that 20% is the most dangerous behaviour I've ever seen in real life on on screen and if you saw it you wouldn't want to get anywhere near her ever. This behaviour usually occurs when she is in heat but not always.'


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

thesilverspear said:


> My horse gets a personality transplant when she has a strong heat; early spring and late summer. Goes from being a laidback horse who hacks alone without any trouble to a maniac, shouting for the others, bouncing around, and she's sharp as a tack to school. She's not dangerous like the OP's mare; you can ride and do all those things, and I do, but it's unpleasant for everyone. The horse is trained to the nines, but like Jaydee said, hormones can cause her to malfunction anyway.
> 
> This will sound insane, but a friend recommended I try her on a homeopathic remedy called Tiger Lilly c30. Why not, I said. I acquired the stuff and gave it to her the first day I noticed her starting her heat cycle. I dosed as per the recommendations (if anyone is interested in the details, ask), and this is the first year in the 16 years I have had this mare that she has not turned into a lunatic on a strong heat.
> 
> ...


 It doesn't sound insane to me. I have a vet friend who can go from very conventional to very "alternative" and is convinced that homeopathy has worked too many times for him to be a coincidence.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Again, there is a million dollars up for anyone that can prove homeopathy works
Also, here is some info from Ben Goldacre ,(science writer and DVM ) who debunks bad science, and not just alternative pseudo science stuff, but bad research by big Pharma

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZiLsFaEzog


Neat video, by Tim Minchin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk


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## KsKatt (Jun 2, 2014)

I have no doubt that there are herbs that can perform many marvelous, big Pharma just won't let any research occur, or at least be published. They have no qualms about people being sick, or even dying, as long as it doesn't effect the bottom line.


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

Textan49 said:


> It doesn't sound insane to me. I have a vet friend who can go from very conventional to very "alternative" and is convinced that homeopathy has worked too many times for him to be a coincidence.


So has sugar pills and the "Dr. Oz said it will help me lose weight and he's a doctor who's _totally_ not paid to advertise bogus products." Anecdotal evidence has also proven that singing Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On" while doing a handstand in a purple leotard will alleviate SI joint pain in horses. Guaranteed! 

Anyways, back on topic. 



> *Seriously dangerous behavior!*


Oh dear! I hope this is just hyperbole to get people to flock to this thread and provide faster responses and not a serious life threatening situation. 



whinniesandnickers said:


> She'll start trying to follow them/not leave and if I make her she'll start bucking higher and higher until I will be for sure bucked off. Then I get off and try to lead her away and she starts running in front of me, so I can't make her go the direction I want and then if I still don't let her go with her buddy she'll rear STRAIGHT up and strike out at my face with her shod hooves. She has no quams about running me over or kicking me if I get behind her while she's freaking out.





> She does not bolt or bite me


Does it really make a difference whether its bucking you off vs. bolting or hooves flying at you vs. teeth coming at you? :neutral:

Either way sounds like a very dangerous situation for the OP. I hope they get professional help on the ground to deal with this situation before someone gets hurt. 



whinniesandnickers said:


> *I've been training horses since I was 14 even wild ones* and understand that she is not trusting my leadership in these situations and is quite literally being consumed by her own anxiety. *Also keep in mind me hiring a trainer is not an option as she has zero respect for any trainer but me and does not trust and will actually try to attack them.*


Do I smell Black Stallion Syndrome here? So if this horse is dangerous to the point of attacking you and anyone that's not you then it's a horse that should be put in the ground but...



whinniesandnickers said:


> She's not attacking me she's just flailing and freaking out after I FORCE her to LEAVE the horse. She's not being dangerous to the public.





> She is totally safe with everyone who handles her now unless they are trying to train her on this issue. Anyone can handle her even my boyfriend, barn owner/non horse person, ppl on the trail etc...





> To answer your collective questions she is not maliciously attacking rather she is acting out based on me applying pressure beyond what she can handle 2 times out of 10 in the same situation.


Wow, that's quite a lot of backtracking going on there. It doesn't matter if you don't think she's _maliciously_ attacking you or not. It's an emotional component that's immaterial when there are hooves flying at you and complete disregard for your sake and authority. :neutral:



whinniesandnickers said:


> Please keep in mind that you don't know this horse and don't see how far she has come.


I don't get it. So you're expecting people on the internet who know nothing about this horse other than the inconsistent story you're giving to provide some kind of miracle solution for you opposed to people who have worked with your horse or someone who can come out in person to work with you and your horse? :neutral:

Well if she does have a hormonal issue that's contributing to her behavior you can try Regumate to see if it helps but...



whinniesandnickers said:


> This behaviour usually occurs when she is in heat *but not always*.


At this point it's become an established behavior for her that will require a lot more work to remedy than Regumate. It really shouldn't matter whether the mare is in season or not. It does not enable them or justify behaviors of them violating set boundaries and acting out. It doesn't matter if she disrespects you 20% of the time or whatever. Disrespect is still disrespect and making excuses for the dangerous behavior is eventually going to wind up with you or someone else getting injured.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

KsKatt said:


> I have no doubt that there are herbs that can perform many marvelous, big Pharma just won't let any research occur, or at least be published. They have no qualms about people being sick, or even dying, as long as it doesn't effect the bottom line.


of course there are herbs that work, and many medicines come from herbs, with active ingredient isolated.. Digitalis, vincristine, asa, just to mention a few
Then we have latrile, live blood analysis and homeopathy, and other stuff that is plain snake medicine
As in that video by Tim Mitchin, ;what do you call alternative medicine that works"?
Medicine.
That is not the point with homeopathy, where there is nothing left of the original substance in that dilution, and it is like a drop in the ocean, with the entire homeopathy touted to work by some as yet unknown physics, where that rapping of those beakers causes 'water molecule memory'


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

We have gotten waaaay off topic, here....


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

*Switcing off topics LOL*



anndankev said:


> What Satan pony? ...





Yogiwick said:


> I just googled it. Came right up. Basically person wrote a funny add about their pony that they called Satan and what to do not to do (Loads well if you can catch him. Enjoys treats, may or may not get a chunk of your hand too) Just inexperienced owners. Pony ended up being taken in by someone who knew what they were doing and is doing very well. Not as exciting as it sounds lol.



OK, I googled Satan Pony just now.

I had to laugh, do you think he looks much like my Chief?

















At any rate they both have the "What did I do wrong?" expression down pat. LOL


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

True, off topic, but homeopathy just seems to give my fingers a mind of their own!
Satan pony is also not very relevant, nor is past history of this horse.
I don't know how often we have rescue horses having aggressive behavior rationalized from past abuse. This is seldom so, as an abused horse is timid, not aggressive
Sometimes horses wind up ina rescue for a good reason, and all aren't the victims of bad luck
Even if this horse did have a past history that is not rosy, you still deal with the horse you now have.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Just throwing my two cents out there...

In my honest opinion, almost any horse can be fixed to a tolerable behavior (I'm going to exclude horses that have been severely mentally damaged)...You can find a horse like your horse, that has been having a onset of dangerous problems, and turn them around to be a decent horse. Is she going to be like Old Billy, who you had all your life, and corrected him every time you had the chance for 15 years? Probably not.

With horses that have problems that keep going on and on like what you have described (especially at such a dangerous level), they aren't going to be a horse dead-broke/bombproof/childproof/safe-for-everyone horse. Chances are, they are going to need an experience rider, no matter how many hours/days/months/years of training you have put in...*What your horse has learned is that she can get you to stop doing something that makes her uncomfortable by bucking/rearing/kicking out at you. *That idea will ALWAYS be etched in her head, unlike a horse who has never had the opportunity to learn that. Your horse has learned, that she's a big 1300 pound animal that has a lot of strength against you. That's when a horse gets dangerous, _when they learn their strength and use it against us_. And the thing is, she will always remember that.





> I know that in 80% of situations her trust in my leadership supersedes every situation we encounter but that 20% is the most dangerous behaviour I've ever seen in real life on on screen and if you saw it you wouldn't want to get anywhere near her ever.


 

Those two numbers don't add up. If a horse trust you, they trust you. You're their world and their leader. There is no, "80% of the time she trust me." If a horse trust you, there is no 20% or 10% or even 1%. It's 100%. At least that's my opinion. 

Another thing I want to get on is if the risk is worth the reward. Like I said above, I believe almost any horse can be fixed. However, a lot of those horses that end up in that situation are put down. Why? While it is possible they can be fixed, not a lot of people are going to put themselves in harms way to fix one horse. To be honest, I have a lot of life ahead of me. If a horse with behavior problems (similar to yours) came to my doorstep and ask for help, I don't think I would give it a try. A horse that knows its strength is bound to use it against a small human like me. The way I see it is the horse thinks, "I get to go back and do my own thing if I just rear up and kick out a little bit..." Then your horse kicks out at you, seriously hurts your or kills you, then the horse learns, "Well darn! I can do whatever the heck I want if I just do this!" 

I would try to see if it's a hormonal thing, if it is and everything stops then good. If not then for your sake, the horse's sake, and the public's sake it might be best to put her down.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with the above.

I was one of those that took on horses like this and, ruling out hormonal problems, know full well that horses like this need extremely tight boundaries that are adhered to every time the horse is handled. 

Rearing or kicking out whether being ridden or on the ground would result in that animal thinking it was better off dead. It would feel my wrath, in that I would whack it hard as it kicked or reared, the follow through would be chasing it until it showed signs of submission. 

As behaviour improves so boundaries widen. 

Correcting behaviour like this takes experience and great timing.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I'm aware of the science (or lack thereof). I've got advanced degrees in the history of science and medicine and I do understand empirical medicine, the scientific method, and how homeopathy most assuredly is neither. I have no idea how or why this stuff reduces my horse's in-season behaviour, but I'll take it as it comes and accept that there are some things that science can't explain. You don't have to waste internet space showing me why I'm wrong. I know the issues with it: but giving my horse the stuff hurts no one and gives me an easier life. Who's going to complain?

This is neither here nor there for the OP. If it's anxious and buddy sour due to being in heat, find some way to regulate that. But seriously correct the kicking and striking; I don't care if it is in season, that behaviour is going to land it in a world of trouble.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Sorry, but mare like that need to be spayed
> There are some stallions, very well bred, that had to be gelded, because they could not focus on the job , ruled by hormones.
> I think *the trotting horse, John Henry *was such a case


Sorry.. I know this is OT but I could not let this go. *John Henry was a Thoroughbred Race horse*. He was recalcitrant and was gelded. Gelding did not do much to help him. He was just plain rank.. 

That said, he was very competitive and very fast. His lifetime earning were $6,591,860. He won a grade 1 race at age 9 (the oldest horse on rec0ord to do so). 

He was not the prettiest horse and, having seen him in person at the Kentucky Horse park years ago I can tell you his size was small and his conformation not the best.. and he was still recalcitrant at age 20! Here is a photo I took of him at that time.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

But, he did race successfully as a gelding, and very much doubt he would have as a stallion. I just jumped to his name, as it was in my memory of an example where a horse that could have made as much, if not more money, in the breeding shed, was gelded, as he never would have achieved that record intact.
There are a few reining stallions that I know, who got the knife for the same reason.
I`m also not suggesting that those horses become model horses afterwards, as it takes a good stallion to make a great gelding, and ditto idea for a spayed mare , but it does modify their behavior somewhat, and at least eliminates the hormonal component.
Far as that Crimson War and Go Man GO bred stud that i gelded, even as a gelding he was hot, needed very regular hard riding in order to perform, so that even when gelded, I sold him
I could take him to a show, and put him in evrey rail class from English to western, and he would then run a winning reining pattern
Next time, if reining or trail was first, he would go into that arena, in a trail class, like he never saw a trail course before, yet had won a trail stake at a Canadian National App show, or look at the judges sitting at center, in a reining class and spook, as I walked to center to start a pattern.
Nope, that halter brain still kicked in, but at least he was not even worse, getting super high around mares
Even as a gelding, he was never going to be an èasy ride`, and needed to go where he was worked hard every day for awhile.
He went to a ranch home, as he had the agility and athletic moves to work cattle

He earned his nick name of `Rambo`` !


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - No one has said that they think all mares should be on Regumate - that is total nonsense. The majority of mares are no different to owning a gelding.
From your post it sounds as if you've never actually had experience with a problem horse like the OP's so have no 'real life' knowledge to draw from
I've had dealing with hundreds of mares in my lifetime, some of the best horses I've ridden have been mares and in all that time I've only had two that were happier and more useful on Regumate than they were without it
I wonder how many mares were shot in the past because they were too 'hormonally difficult' for anyone to want to be bothered with?
If this mare only strikes out when she's having one of these hysterical panic driven episodes then they she might never do it again if her problems are hormonal
My mare was saved by a dealer from a 'kill pen' situation because he thought she looked worth a chance, it was obvious from her attitude when we got her that someone had tried and failed to 'sort her out' using force and aggression. It took a good year for us to put all of that behind her and for her to regain trust in humans but without the Regumate to take away her crazy hormonal drive that would not have been possible


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

nOTe, Jaydee, I said that if Regumate helps this horse, then the Op should try it, BUT this horse has more problems then Hormones.
Sorry, unless a horse has a granuloma tumor, brain tumor, etc, that extreme dangerous behavior can never be excused by hormones alone.
Also note, that in the original post, the OP did say that this mare also reverted to that behavior when not in heat
My referral to the Bedouins was not that no mare should ever be on Regumate, but rather that the response today, is for immediate 'easy fixes', or why else would geldings also be put on Regumate, and even stallions, off label, which impacts their future fertility?
In other words, 'mind' is all to often chosen last, as any criteria in breeding
You might have worked where every mare had to 'perform, regardless of how that was achieved, which is very common in some high performance industry, with many of those horses never being good amateur horses, and only able to be ridden by pros
I,on the other hand, focused on horses that had not only ability, but good minds so they could go on to being great youth and non pro horses.
I thus did not breed either stallions or mares that were ruled by hormones, and never had to tell a buyer of any of my mares that they had to put that horse on Regumate, or be in for a rodeo.
Look at the calming agent market-it is huge.
While there is a time to use some of these agents, all too often they are reached for first, when in reality, all that horse really needed was wet saddle blankets and firm boundaries
I also see so many good minded horses, going to slaugther, suffering neglect, simply because the horse market is flooded, thus I am way past thinking every horse needs to be saved. Maybe harsh, but culling does not just involve serious conformation faults, lameness ect, but poor minds. 
While you wish to separate hormonal drive from mind, I consider them inter related, and would not keep a mare that I 'HAD to put on Regumate. Not all horses deserve to be saved, esp in the reality of horses being produced beyond the 'supply and demand'
One way the Bedouins chose those original mares, as the legend goes(sorry Arabian breeders, going by memory ) , was, that after a herd of horses had been deprived of water for along time, they came to a water hole, with those horses rushing towards the water. When a re-call (whistle ? ) was given, only those 5 turned back obediently from the water.
I see a mare being ruled by hormones, much the same, a horse that needs to be culled. JMO, and others might feel different, and that is their choice.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Curious Jaydee, what did you do with that mare? 
Would you have bred such a mare?
Glad you saved her,and if she worked out well for you, Kuddos.
On the other hand, not all horses deserve to be saved. Too many good horses without issues being slaughtered
Sorry, I have no use for a mare that has to be on Regumate, anymore than for a a dangerous stallion. Did you ever spay her?
The OP's horse is not just distracted , but down right dangerous. Maybe you wish to excuse a mare, due to hormones, for that aggressive reaction, striking, running someone over, etc, and I do not excuse that anymore in mare than in a stallion


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I remember being young and thinking I was immortal. Now that I'm an old bag, I realize I just got really lucky when I was young.

Please get rid of this horse, because just one of those kicks making contact with your head or back could end your life or change it dramatically for the worse. You are way too valuable a person to have that happen to you.

Every horse is capable of killing a human, but you don't keep the ones that are likely to do it, even if they are sweet some of the time. Human life is too precious.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Thank you everyone so much for your input!

One of you hit the nail on the head with your prediction. She was taken away from her Dam at 4 months old with no weaning at all and put in a trailer where she was shipped across the country basically and put into a herd where she apparently never bonded with anyone (horse or human). She would cry out and was pretty detached. Then she was put into a child's riding camp at the age of 2 and ridden by kids in a harsh curb bit and a saddle that didn't fit. She was then starved to the point of needing to be put down. When I met her it's because I know the vet and she was going to be put down. I took her on, fed her and saved her. I've spoken with every owner she's every had and they all say that I am the first being she was able to trust besides her Dam.

***I believe that we should not make excuses for our animals or for ourselves! I still go to work at that time of the month even though I'm doubled over in pain and become a crazy hormonal b!$ch because I know what is expected of me at work. I allow myself to complain a little and not be super willing during those days but I get the work done. THIS mare HAS DEBILITATING anxiety regarding abandonment which is amplified with the hormones surrounding her heats. I am in NO way making an excuse because I believe that stallion or peggers mare or mare in heat all need to DO their JOB just as I do. Just as I would expect my boss to expect me to find a way to deal with this so I can get my job done, I expect her to get to this point with my help. I wouldn't expect my boss to FIRE me or SHOOT me just because that is how I feel at that time of the month but I would also expect him to expect me to get the work done regardless. This is how I think regarding her.***

Now that the above point is clear I just need to say that I KNOW this horse is capable of managing this anxiety with the right help. This is a horse that was so food and paddock aggressive when I saved her (at 700lbs, she's 1,300 now) she would attack anyone mucking/feeding, would rear straight up if you so much as touched the riens with a bit, buck to the sky if your saddle didn't fit JUST right and would go positively psycotic if you were to try to trailer load her. 

This same horse now is completely respectful with food, backs and waits with head down when ANYONE feeds her and is totally safe with anyone in her paddock/mucking, I can use ANY bit on her and take up a contact, use any saddle I want with tarps, ropes, saddlebags, flapping around on her, and simply have to point to the trailer and she will trot up to it and jump right in every time!

Now I swear we have this ONE issue left to work through. The trainers in the small town I work with are crap quite honestly. Not much selection here. I know her extremely well and know that she's learned to trust me with everything else she was taught be humans she should protect herself from going through again and that is THE deepest and most difficult thing for her to trust that I can help her with. She's already coming along since I first posted this. She's still in heat and is SUPER anxious but I've been doing the tree thing and staying with her (I used to walk away for 10 mins) now I stay with her at tree and am seeing a big difference. Now I can keep her focus by disengaging her HQs from the saddle or the ground. She's still terrified but is looking to me instead of to her buddy for comfort on dealing with this extremely deep seeded anxiety. I've been using some of your tips which seem to be helping. 

To answer some questions I can tie her to ANYTHING and she will NOT even think about pulling back and will stand there for as long as I ask her to. Again, she USED to pull back and break things and even rear over backwards and almost lost her eye in a trailer pulling back once but for the past 3 years I'be been able to tie her to a twig and she stands there as long as I ask her to with total slack in the line.

Any more suggestions?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Have you tried driving this mare? By that I mean either walking at about 45deg off one hip in a pen and having her walk ahead of you. Driving lines aren't necessary if a fence offers some control. Dominant horses do this. It's not about speed but having her move at a pace that's comfortable for you. This can be done at liberty or with a lunge line (something light).


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

That's a great idea! I have ground driven her with long lines and also driven her at liberty but not in years! Thank you will try this tonight!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie said:


> Curious Jaydee, what did you do with that mare?
> Would you have bred such a mare?
> Glad you saved her,and if she worked out well for you, Kuddos.
> On the other hand, not all horses deserve to be saved. Too many good horses without issues being slaughtered
> ...


Not sure what you mean by what did I do with her -
I still have her, she's the pinto in my avatar pic. and I have no regrets at all about keeping her. She's an amazing little horse, gentle, loving, very trainable and dependable, well worth the time it took to get her over all the bad stuff other people had done to her. Without the Regumate to control her hormonal urges she was one royal pain in the backside, on it I'd struggle to find a better horse for what I want
I discussed spaying her with my vet who specializes in stud/breeding work and he said that spaying can sometimes make a mare worse so she's on Regumate from May through to the end of October.
Her problems were slightly different to the OP's mare as she didn't mind riding away from other horses but for 4 days of every heat she would get hysterical every time one of our other horses went out of her sight, she couldn't be kept in a field with the others at that time because she'd drive them mad with her flirting and get kicked, in her own paddock she'd pace up and down all day long shrieking her head off to get their attention. When she was in that state of mind she did have the potential to be dangerous because everything was non-existent compared to her sexual urges
I have heard it said that breeding from a mare like this can have a positive effect, there's no evidence that it's genetic so if I had a wonderful mare that was like it and wanted to breed from her I would.
I wouldn't be put off breeding from an aggressive stallion either if it was otherwise talented and a good conformation. My ISH mare goes back 3 generations to an ID stallion called Colman - he was an evil tempered horse but threw wonderful stock with good temperaments
I had an Arabian stallion that was gelded at age 8 because he'd become too difficult and bad tempered to be safe, he also had produced some lovely offspring, all good natured horses. He was broke after gelding and I competed him in Arabian classes at a high level, he was a very intelligent horse and a pleasure to handle and ride

I don't know what's wrong with the OP's mare but if it is hormonal it could all go away with the right treatment and she could be a very different horse
I don't make excuses for bad behavior but I do look for reasons for it - I see hormone related problems no differently to a horse that's acting up because its got back pain or ulcers - remove the source of the pain if you can and you have a happy useful horse


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Oh also in regards to medication (regumate, injections, herbal) I want her to LEARN to how MANAGE her anxiety in these situations with my help. She clearly never learned self soothing so I want to help teach her this. 

I'm certainly not against trying to help her feel less pain but I want to work through this first because it really has become a behavioral issue. Once, like I say I know she is able to do the job I'm asking (with some complaining lol) I would look into that but just like with me I can take the pain medication for cramps but I'm still a crazy hormonal B!$ch for those days and had to teach myself to regulate myself with or without pain. 

She's not touchy around that area at all so I think it's more that the hormones simply amplify her existing anxiety


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Also, just wanted to say that horses are herd animals. They are programmed to believe that if left alone or if they leave the herd they are more likely to be eaten. For anyone not to believe that this is a real source of anxiety for a horse is inconceivable to me.

That being said as much as I obviously love this horse I would NOT put my emotions ahead of anyone else's safety. I'm allowed to make choices that affect myself. I have no children/dependents. This horse has NEVER injured anyone. I would not keep on trying if I wasn't 100% sure she can conqour this LAST issue. This horse was TAUGHT by HUMANS that if you don't scare them away they will take you away from your herd and hurt you over and over and you will die of starvation! 

I have put my time/effort into working on the other issues which obviously completely worked so I fully believe I should continue to work on this last most deep/difficult one with her. Why WOULDN'T I? Especially now that she's already showing progress after me only working on this for a week or so and WHILE she's in HEAT!?


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

whinniesandnickers said:


> Also, just wanted to say that horses are herd animals. They are programmed to believe that if left alone or if they leave the herd they are more likely to be eaten. For anyone not to believe that this is a real source of anxiety for a horse is inconceivable to me.
> 
> That being said as much as I obviously love this horse I would NOT put my emotions ahead of anyone else's safety. I'm allowed to make choices that affect myself. I have no children/dependents. This horse has NEVER injured anyone. I would not keep on trying if I wasn't 100% sure she can conqour this LAST issue. This horse was TAUGHT by HUMANS that if you don't scare them away they will take you away from your herd and hurt you over and over and you will die of starvation!
> 
> I have put my time/effort into working on the other issues which obviously completely worked so I fully believe I should continue to work on this last most deep/difficult one with her. Why WOULDN'T I? Especially now that she's already showing progress after me only working on this for a week or so and WHILE she's in HEAT!?


That's great that she's making progress I think everyone's problem is not that she has had abandonment issues its that she is not looking to you when she is abandoned? She is chucking a hissy, you are the leader so why is she feeling like she's being abandoned ? Why isn't she looking to you for comfort ?


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

I agree as I stated in my original post. The thing is she is looking to me for help when she feels abandoned in 80% of situations but that 20% it's like it wouldn't matter who was there beside/on her it just overtakes her. But as I said I'm pretty sure everytime has been when she's in heat or just about to start a heat.

She's getting better already though. In the wild fillies stay with their Dams for at least a year if not their whole life and not at 4 months so I expect it to be an uphill battle for a while but at least she's starting to let me help her work through SOME of that and I'm OUTRIGHT Proud of her! 

You think about how many humans who struggle with deep anxiety work on it for years and years with professional counselling and anti-anxiety medications who still have panic attacks and we are all expecting this animal with no speech ability and no medicinal aids to never have a panic attack again. It's pretty incredible to see how much she really does trust me (a human) after all we humans have done to her to be letting go of some of that anxiety already.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

It's a horse, not a human, and I don't think psychoanalytic theory is very applicable to horses. Lots of horses are weaned at 4-6 months. This doesn't mess them up for life.

I would address the in-season behaviour with chemicals -- be it Regumate or anything else. As people have discussed in this thread, even otherwise sane, easily handled mares can become raging nymphomaniacs on a strong heat. 

Here is how I addressed mine, prior to putting her on the aforementioned homeopathic stuff:

I would get on with my day, as it were, and ride and handle the mare as per normal, more or less. If she did anything totally out of line, like tried to run over me, she would find herself being chased backwards very quickly. Thus she learned from a young age how to freak out and be a pain, but without putting humans at great risk of being squashed because that always went badly for her. I also took the view that the horse doesn't know your agenda. If I thought a hack would be messy, given the mood the horse was in, I'd do an ***-kicking schooling session with maybe a short hack to cool out at the end. After all, horse has no bloody idea that your plan that day was a two-hour trail ride. If the horse was a maniac while hacking out, I would keep it short, but I would decide when to turn it around. Horse has no clue how long I intended to go for; as long as I'm the one who decides when/if to turn around, I keep the upper hand. 

You ask about self-soothing behaviour? That's how you train it. My favourite trainers, like Mark Rashid, Carl Hester, Buck Brannaman, et al will tell you that they deal with anxious, nutty horses by not making a big deal out of any of it. You get on with your day. You might modify what you are going to do slightly, but you pretty much crack on with things and maintain control. You put the horse in situations which are going to end succesfully for horse and handler and the horse develops confidence, learning stuff isn't a big deal because you don't make a big deal out of it.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Horses live in the moment. It will remember traumatic experiences usually caused by humans and not being separated as a youngster. People working with horses need to be in the moment and not think about possibilities in the horses past or it becomes difficult to move forward. When you're working with the mare and she gets anxious, witchy, whatever, make her feet move faster (not canter)and introduce some turnbacks. This should be for only a minute or two then allow her to walk again. Do this often enough and she will learn that her behavior causes her more work. She will learn to control it. When you get the behavior you are working toward, put her away, don't ask anything else as that is a huge reward for her.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Sorry out of curiosity um what is her being seperated young got to do with anything? I have a friend who has a horse who was seperated extremely young but they have a fantastic relationship, I suppose part may be he is a he but I am still confused?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The only comparison with humans you can make as far as hormonal affects go are that many humans suffer terribly and do need medications to get them through. I've personally been fortunate enough to have never had a real problem with hormonal issues but I do know some women who are pretty tough about other things that have needed help especially through the menopause.
The difference is we humans are (supposed to be) rational thinking creatures. Horses are not.
Expecting them to get a grip of themselves and deal with it in the way a human might isn't going to happen
Their natural instinct and main driving forces are to eat, procreate and avoid predators
Removing her from her mother at a young age is fairly irrelevant. Our old mare Flo that we lost last year was rejected by her mother and raised by the humans we bought her off. She'd not seen another horse after that until we bought her aged 3, she had no interest in other horses when introduced to our 'herd' and never really did, she was never herd bound and preferred to be with people
She was very naughty and dangerous when we got her because she'd never been disciplined by a mother or by her human family so would throw nasty tantrums when she wanted her own way but it didn't take long to put a stop to that.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Removing her from her mother at a young age is fairly irrelevant.
> 
> 
> She was very naughty and dangerous when we got her because she'd never been disciplined by a mother


You are proving in the second statement that it actually IS relevant.

That is exactly what I'm saying. Just as children or puppies who don't learn to self sooth and boundaries end up throwing tantrums. My horse did that at the child's riding camp and learned that by scaring ppl she didn't have to do things that were scary or caused her anxiety.

I've worked her through all of them now except this one which I'm asking for ideas on.

BTW I worked her through this issue last night and she was FANTASTIC. At first she started throwing an epic tantrum and it took all of 30 seconds for me to snap her out of it!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I've weaned foals at four months of age and at nine months of age, and it makes no difference in how that horse turns out.
In fact, one of my best mares, was weaned at one month of age, due to the seller un loading her, as soon as her dam was confirmed back in foal, to our stud, versus waiting until that foal was at least 4 months old, per our verbal agreement
"Scoots 'won 5 year old performance, at the Alberta Horse Improvement program, with me bringing her back into performance shape when her colt, who became my once in a lifetime horse, was still not weaned off of her
Orphan foals can become spoiled, true, esp if kept isolated from the herd, but I turned Scoots out with my broodmares and foals, so she learned normal herd interaction. I just brought her in twice a day for some calf mana.
Thus, i don't buy that separation from the dam as being a life alliterating event for your horse
Glad to here that you are having some success, and good luck! Let us know how the regumate works for you


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

whinniesandnickers said:


> Oh also in regards to medication (regumate, injections, herbal) I want her to LEARN to how MANAGE her anxiety in these situations with my help. She clearly never learned self soothing so I want to help teach her this.
> 
> I'm certainly not against trying to help her feel less pain but I want to work through this first because it really has become a behavioral issue. Once, like I say I know she is able to do the job I'm asking (with some complaining lol) I would look into that but just like with me I can take the pain medication for cramps but I'm still a crazy hormonal B!$ch for those days and had to teach myself to regulate myself with or without pain.
> 
> She's not touchy around that area at all so I think it's more that the hormones simply amplify her existing anxiety


Horses don't have menstrual cramps. 
When they are in heat, nature is telling them to find a mate, as that is a built in survival drive that preserves a species
Regumate puts them in a false sense of pregnancy-thus , volia, no over whelming urge to breed
There is a word for what she is feeling, and it is not anxiety in the sense that you are interpreting it as, but a desire or even 'need' to be with other horses, because a mare that is is strong heat, esp one never really exposed to a stallion, will show heat to geldings and some, even to other mares, wanting to fulfill that urge to be bred.
Thus, glad you are trying to work through it, but trying to use early weaning, thoughts of abandonment, has you not understanding the true driving force behind her actions, if indeed, they are limited to when she is in heat


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

whinniesandnickers said:


> I worked her through this issue last night and she was FANTASTIC. At first she started throwing an epic tantrum and it took all of 30 seconds for me to snap her out of it!


 If you feel you are making good progress with this, by all means continue with what you are doing. I try, whenever possible to never set myself or the horse up for failure. With the issue you are dealing with that might be catching it at the first sign of anxiety before she goes "over the edge", or if she will do this in any riding situation but is the worst on a trail ride, avoid the trails for now and work in a safer situation. Good luck.


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## kelseyannxo (Jun 25, 2015)

I haven't read all of these responses, but I DID pick up on the ever so changing story.

In one recent post of yours, OP, you said she was abused when she was quite younger - THAT alone will result in some erratic behavior. You THEN went on to say something along the lines of, "When I am menstruating, I go to work and don't expect my boss to fire or shoot me for not putting in as much work as I should. Why should I do that to her?"

So...what? You just admitted most of her behavioral issues come from her being abused/being a rescue...NOT ONLY when she is in heat...and then you hit the tab button and said she should be forgiven for being hormonal while in season. 

Which one is it, OP? You go back and forth. Are you making excuses for her behavior , or are you just confused? I'm not trying to be rude here, but the story changes every time you post and its concerning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

whinniesandnickers said:


> You are proving in the second statement that it actually IS relevant.


No, not the same thing. Jaydee speaks of an ersatz orphan whereas your mare had a very typical, common weaning experience.

Glad you are making progress with your mare, but assigning any importance to her (normal) weaning process will get you in eventual trouble whereas addressing any hormonal extremes (if necessary) and straight up addressing the behavior keeps everybody in the right frame of mind.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

To put the entire 'abandonment and comparison and that of mare in heat to a woman and her menstrual cycle, where she has her period, there are some facts you are missing OP

When a mare is in heat, she has a viable follicle during that time, and nature is telling her to get that egg fertilized, ie, get bred.
That is what is driving her strong desire to be with other horses during that time, seeking that fulfillment nature created to make sure species are continued. It is not insecurity, or a latent feeling of being abandoned.

When a woman is having her period, she is not fertile, and in fact, that un fertilized egg, and the preparation of her uterus lining for that pregnancy, is shed

Humans, have evolved with the female being receptive to 'breeding', even when there is no viable egg present, as over time, adult human love has become strongly associated with the physical act of sex.
This is not true in the horse. When that mare is in heat, she is strongly driven to be bred, and that instinct drives her actions,not feeling of being abandoned as a foal
For some mares this drive to be bred, is so strong that it over rides everything, and that is why treating such mares with Regumate works-they no longer are driven to find that mate and copulate


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Weaning at 4 months old is completely normal and a good age. 

Lots of horses are weaned at 4 months old and are just fine. 

Please re-read what is stated in the post by Smilie. That way I do not need to re-type it here.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think there are some confusions coming about from assumptions

Smilie - I don't think anyone has said that horses get menstrual cramps - the comparison was related to hormonal issues (mental and physical) that affect humans but not necessarily the same hormonal issues. Mares do sometimes get over sized ovulating follicles that are painful though and a horse in pain is a fractious horse
OP - I don't know if the hand rearing my mare had was at all comparable to your mares past - Flo was with her mother for only a few days at the most and she was never abused but treated like a puppy that was never disciplined and grew to be 15 hands. I have known hand reared foals to be perfectly fine provided the handler treats them correctly and introduces them to a 'herd' or at least a good companion horse as soon as possible
Maybe your horses temper tantrums are the same as hers - she was never interested in horse company but your horse obviously is so is demanding her own way and its compounded by her hormonal drive when in heat. 
Flo was never 'mareish' at all and in the 20+ years I owned her was never visibly in heat but she could fly into a rage when she was being a brat
I took a risk and cured her in a few minutes by giving her a really good beating but it is a risk because you're establishing yourself as the 'alpha' when you do that and if the horse doesn't believe you it won't end well
She'd also never been abused as you say your horse has and an abused horse can already be a defensive horse and attack when it feels threatened


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

kelseyannxo said:


> I haven't read all of these responses, but I DID pick up on the ever so changing story.
> 
> In one recent post of yours, OP, you said she was abused when she was quite younger - THAT alone will result in some erratic behavior. You THEN went on to say something along the lines of, "When I am menstruating, I go to work and don't expect my boss to fire or shoot me for not putting in as much work as I should. Why should I do that to her?"
> 
> ...


???? I know on forums people tend to try to discredit the poster and find holes in their 'story' so I'm going to assume that's what's going on here as I've always said the truth and nothing but it. It's hard for you to get the full story on a forum as I'm only able to share snipits of our 5 years together and what that journey has entailed. 

To answer your question about my 'story changing' and you asking which one is it the answer is it is BOTH. She USED to be dangerous all the time because of her abuse but now AS I've said OVER and OVER now it's ONLY with ONE issue and even that is perfect most of the time. She's ONLY EVER DANGEROUS now under the FOLLOWING circumstances:

It is her girlfriend who is SO bonded to her she FREAKS out everytime my mare leaves her and she is in heat or within a couple days of being in heat. The rest of the time she leaves this mare no problem! She can leave any other horse anytime with no issue. 

It's sounding like maybe then all it is is that she really really wants to get it on with this mare and so when her hormones are screaming for her to breed she wants nothing more than to get as close to this mare as possible. 

Maybe it's not anxiety then? Whatever it is as I've said I don't want to use drugs to change this behaviour. I'm working her through this behaviour just as I've done with all the other ones.


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

whinniesandnickers said:


> It's sounding like maybe then all it is is that she really really wants to get it on with this mare and so when her hormones are screaming for her to breed she wants nothing more than to get as close to this mare as possible.
> 
> Maybe it's not anxiety then? Whatever it is as I've said I don't want to use drugs to change this behaviour. I'm working her through this behaviour just as I've done with all the other ones.


Maybe, maybe not. There is nothing wrong with continuing to pursue the straight-forward retraining, but if the issue does not resolve or improve, or you see hard evidence of it being connected to heat cycles you should consider that she might need some help.

For several years I had my mare in a boarding situation, and she received excellent care and segregated turnout with only mares. But boy, howdy, she was begging for attention from anything with four legs during her hardest heat cycles. She would ride out well any time during the month except when she was in heat, but then she would be in panic mode like your mare. She never ran me over or bolted or kicked or struck or reared, but I could not, no matter what, get her attention. _Sometimes_ I could capture her body but her mind would STILL not be with me. 

Yes, part of this was training, but as she was only sound for light riding and could not be tied I had to accept limitations. I did not ride out during hard heats. If she were not already well on her way to retirement I would most definitely have pursued pharmaceutical intervention to assist us in our training.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

OP - Its sounds more as if its the other mare that needs hormone treatment.
When we opted to use Regumate on Looby it wasn't just for her peace of mind it was for the other mares we have too as her behavior in the field and barn was upsetting several of them too, we bought K last year and when she was exposed to Looby's antics this year before we'd started her on regumate for the summer she began to exhibit mareish behavior and although she'd ride out on her own was whinnying and stressed the whole time because she could hear Looby calling. Since Looby's been back on Regumate K has returned to being a calm non hormonal mare again
Have you considered trying a calming supplement for a while if you don't want get involved with hormone medications?


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

whinniesandnickers said:


> EXCEPT one situation! 20% of the time when asked to leave another horse or being left by one she has lived with (she's totally fine being passed/passing randoms) she will all of a sudden start FREAKING OUT DANGEROUSLY! She'll start trying to follow them/not leave and if I make her she'll start bucking higher and higher until I will be for sure bucked off. Then I get off and try to lead her away and she starts running in front of me, so I can't make her go the direction I want and then if I still don't let her go with her buddy she'll rear STRAIGHT up and strike out at my face with her shod hooves. She has no quams about running me over or kicking me if I get behind her while she's freaking out. I know it's anxiety related because she starts to breath super heavy, body stiffens, muscles tense and her eyes look like they are going to bulge out of her head and she grinds her teeth and tosses her head.





whinniesandnickers said:


> To answer your question about my 'story changing' and you asking which one is it the answer is it is BOTH. She USED to be dangerous all the time because of her abuse but now AS I've said OVER and OVER now it's ONLY with ONE issue and even that is perfect most of the time. She's ONLY EVER DANGEROUS now under the FOLLOWING circumstances:
> 
> It is her girlfriend who is SO bonded to her she FREAKS out everytime my mare leaves her and she is in heat or within a couple days of being in heat. The rest of the time she leaves this mare no problem! She can leave any other horse anytime with no issue.


I am confused. Which horse freaks out? Your horse or her girlfriend?


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

So what happened was they used to live together and during this time mine was totally fine all the time with leaving her gf. The gf is the one who started loooosing her mind and would call and call and pace the fence the WHOLE time we were gone and sweat like CRAZY. We would go for 8 hr rides, trailer to 4 day camping rides, etc... and I was told that the gf would be freaking the whole time. My mare was still fine at first but over time got more and more stressed about it gradually until she go to the point that she's at now. If she hears her gf calling or i try to seperate them mine goes balistic. It's wierd cause the other one doesn't freak out as much under saddle so my friend can make her leave us but if she were at the barn and I were to leave she would lose it.

While she was living with my mare (separate paddocks always) my mare was managable but every since she moved barns every time we meet up with them on a trail ride every thing is perfect until we go to seperate them and that's...the ONLY time my mare isn't wonderful to deal with and turns into a danger.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Jaydee, I wrote that comparison to clarify what issues those horomonal drives in mares are rooted in, and yes, reading through all the posts the Op did mention she did not wish to deal with the mare's 'pain', using drugs , and many here also compared their own moodiness, based on time of the month. Mares are not blue, moody, depressed, due to estrogen, but rather very 'hor,,,y, for lack of a better word.
I also realize that some mares can have a brief period of painful ovulation, that shows up like colic.It lasts a few hours and Smilie went through that as a three and four year old. I also mentioned cystic ovaries and granuloma tumors, all which should be ruled out, as both those conditions can be painful
The point that I was trying to make, is that a mare is not emotionally vulnerable when in heat, due to foal hood weaning ect, nor is a normal mare in pain.
Her actions are based on a strong drive to have that egg fertilized, and her body produces hormones when that egg is ready, so that being bred, having a mate, becomes all consuming, and, yes, some mares need hormonal help to eliminate this drive, using various stuff, including hormone treatment
However, with additional info, it does look like this mare is extremely buddy sour, and of course,when in heat, all other vises will be amplified, including that buddy sourness


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Maybe it is just me but I think it is time that girlfriend and mare get names besides she to keep things less confusing.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Did you miss this by the OP, Jaydee

``
I'm certainly not against trying to help her feel less pain but I want to work through this first because it really has become a behavioral issue. Once, like I say I know she is able to do the job I'm asking (with some complaining lol) I would look into that but just like with me I can take the pain medication for cramps but I'm still a crazy hormonal B!$ch for those days and had to teach myself to regulate myself with or without pain. 

Thus, my explanation, in that post, to help the OP see the true issue, of why mares act like they do, when in heat.
Nature has programed them to be bred. In order to be bred, they have to be with other horses . Mares don`t automatically think, ``Gee that herd only has geldings and mares, so I will just act `normal``


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

whinniesandnickers said:


> I rescued my mare years ago from a very bad situation and she was seriously dangerous and every trainer in my town has tried to work with her with no luck but I've worked with her and we've developed such a bond that she is safe with me in ALL situations even bridleless and bareback, jumping anything, extreme trails, trailering, camping, barrels, competing and winning etc...
> 
> EXCEPT one situation! 20% of the time when asked to leave another horse or being left by one she has lived with (she's totally fine being passed/passing randoms) she will all of a sudden start FREAKING OUT DANGEROUSLY! She'll start trying to follow them/not leave and if I make her she'll start bucking higher and higher until I will be for sure bucked off. Then I get off and try to lead her away and she starts running in front of me, so I can't make her go the direction I want and then if I still don't let her go with her buddy she'll rear STRAIGHT up and strike out at my face with her shod hooves. She has no quams about running me over or kicking me if I get behind her while she's freaking out. I know it's anxiety related because she starts to breath super heavy, body stiffens, muscles tense and her eyes look like they are going to bulge out of her head and she grinds her teeth and tosses her head.
> 
> ...


The mare's behaviour has dialed down over the course of this thread. From going mental whenever she was separated from a horse she knew, and attacking (!) any trainer who wasn't the OP, she's now well-behaved, only acting out at one particular mare, and it's due to the other one flipping her lid: "It is her girlfriend who is SO bonded to her she FREAKS out everytime my mare leaves her and she is in heat or within a couple days of being in heat. The rest of the time she leaves this mare no problem! She can leave any other horse anytime with no issue."

Any horse that "attacks" people who aren't its regular handler is far from perfect or broke. What happens if you get hit by a bus and someone else needs to look after it? There is that. 

Lastly, with any entire animal, female or male, there is a part of them you will never have. How it behaves, and the degree to which they tune out humans due to stronger instincts, ones which can overrun training, to find a mate, depends on the animal. If the horse is exhibiting "the most dangerous behaviour I've ever seen in real life on on screen and if you saw it you wouldn't want to get anywhere near her ever," and I could attribute that behaviour to extremely strong heats, I'd spay it yesterday, and work on its manners once I've sorted that out.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Ok guys I'm going to start again as it seems I've confused you:


My horse = safe, happy, perfect UNLESS anyone tries to separate her from her girlfriend when she seems to be in heat/going into/out of heat. When my horse is NOT in heat she can leave her gf anytime, anywhere with zero issue.

My horse used to live with her gf and was fine until her gf moved away. My horse's gf was the one who had a problem when we would leave the barn for any amount of time even to the cross ties or ring but my horse was fine.

When her gf moved to another barn my horse started to get dangerous when we would meet on trail rides and we would each go to our own barns. Now she is still safe, happy, perfect UNLESS anyone tries to seperate her from her girlfriend and she was in heat/going into/out of heat.

My horse is a safe horse with anyone UNLESS they are trying to seperate her from THIS particular horse, her girlfriend and she is in heat/going into/out of heat. Then she is seriously dangerous with only the person who is trying to seperate her from her gf. 

Again, When my horse is NOT in heat she can leave her gf anytime, anywhere with zero issue.

Is this clear?


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Just in case it's not clear.....

My horse not in heat = safe/perfect/happy

My horse in heat not asked to seperate from her gf = safe/perfect/happy

My horse in heat being asked to seperate from her gf = seriously dangerous


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Btw she USED to attack ppl when I rescued her but is safe with people now!

Also we ride with about 15-20 other horse friends several times a week and do weekend long camping trips, weekend long Eventing events, participate in shows, clinics, compete and win in multiple disciplines, lead trail rides of up to 20 horses, train green horses and go for all day rides on our own very often with ZERO issues!

The only issues we've had in the past very long time has been when trying to seperate her from her gf when she's in /going into/coming out of heat!

Is is all clear now?


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Honestly I'm lost..


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

clear as mud !
Carry on, and stay safe!
I was run off a trail once, by two horses 'joined at the hip"
In this case, it was a mother and daughter, from the same farm, ridden by a mother and her son. We were having a club group organized trail ride
Those two horses got separated in that string of horses, and as I was riding along the side of a steep bank, one of those idiot buddy sour horses came charging by, kicking out as she passed, forcing my horse over the edge.
You now have gone from the horse acting up each time these two buddies meet,and then are separated, to it only being a problem when your mare is in heat
If she is 'perfect' the rest of the time, either try Regumate or don't ride her when she is in heat. Mares are usually in for only 5 or 7 days.
Your horse must be a slow learner, not realizing her GF is of the same sex by now!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, you only meet up when your mare is in heat:

"While she was living with my mare (separate paddocks always) my mare was managable but every since she moved barns every time we meet up with them on a trail ride every thing is perfect until we go to seperate them and that's...the ONLY time my mare isn't wonderful to deal with and turns into a danger.'


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Your horse must be a slow learner, not realizing her GF is of the same sex by now!


That just speaks to the nature of some hormonal disruptions. My mare would flirt, wink, squat with and for any mare in her paddock when she was in summer heat. For a time there was one mare who would actually "mount" her and Tuesday would "stand" for her. That is not normal. Fortunately that horse was not around long. Even so I was very glad to be able to bring her home again.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Actually homosexuality is common in nature with animals as it is with humans. Any mammal biologist or vet will tell you is. So it actually is normal. Just because my mare has only fallen in love w another mare doesn't make her stupid.

I think what happens is once they see each other on the trail they both go into heat because both will not be in heat and then as soon as they see each other they are both squirting and winking and the other mare squeels like a pig. 

I dare any of you to tell me that I should have been able to train my horse not to go into heat when she sees this one horse.

How do we know that they don't feel that the other is their mating partner?


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

whinniesandnickers said:


> Actually homosexuality is common in nature with animals as it is with humans. Any mammal biologist or vet will tell you is. So it actually is normal. Just because my mare has only fallen in love w another mare doesn't make her stupid.
> 
> I think what happens is once they see each other on the trail they both go into heat because both will not be in heat and then as soon as they see each other they are both squirting and winking and the other mare squeels like a pig.
> 
> ...


You do not understand the physiology here. In fact, you are sounding pretty uneducated about equine reproduction (or animal reproduction) at this point. 

*Horses do not "go into heat" upon seeing another horse*. They may exhibit heat like behavior and reactivity to another horse, but actually going into *heat* (and being receptive to a stallion and able to conceive a foal)* is a 21 day cycle process*. Actually being IN heat lasts 2-5 days. Please read this and educate yourself. 

THE HEAT OR ESTRUS CYCLE IN THE MARE 

Your horse's behavior is reactivity to the presence of another horse (and in this case a mare). If a stallion was present she might not react at all. 

You are anthropomorphising horse behavior. Be careful of that. 

I have seen like gender animals mount each other. This does not indicate they are homosexual (have an orientation only to animals of the same sex). Typically it is an indication of dominance or an indication of asserting dominance over another animal. 

It can also indicate heat in some species such as cattle. Cows will mount other cows in heat and the one that stands still for mounting is the one that is "in heat." The ones mounting may or may not be in heat. This is just behavior. Nothing about it is "homosexual." 

Your horse behaving as she does is inappropriate under saddle or while in work. It is reactivity to another horse. This behavior should be discouraged and curtailed.. her focus needs to be on her rider or handler, not on the other horse. I suspect this has been allowed and when not allowed she has upped the ante and gotten her own way.. so she continues to up the ante and get rewarded (you dismount, attempt to soothe her, what ever). 

At this point she may need a CTJ meeting but because she has been rewarded for a LOOOONG time when she ups the ante when she gets frantic, that CTJ meeting is going to be a long, hard battle. Knowing this, most trainers won't engage in that battle because the horse will fight worse before giving in... if they even give in. That same trainer may also believe that after they have had it out with this mare, you won't follow through so she keeps the lesson. 

Even then, this sort of horse will always need to be handled in a way that recognizes she is about to engage in a fight to get what she wants (you off her back, going with the other horse, whatever). THAT is what makes her dangerous. 

If the very first time she went ape s**t over leaving another horse she had been ridden through it, she probably would have been fine.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

This horse is Buddy Sour. That is the short answer. 

A common enough issue.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Hunny I have spoken to the owner of the other mare and both of us are absolutely sure (over 5 years) that both of these horses bring eachother into heat. How is it that consistently over 5 years that every single time we ride together they both start peeing, squirting, winking, etc...within 20 mins of meeting up (as long as it's just the two of them). Even if it's twice a week every week throughout the Winter?

When I rescued this mare she lived with mares and geldings and didn't act in a sexual way with any of the geldings. Only with one of the mares. She would let that mare mount her and she tried to mount that mare too. When boys try to do anything like this she promptly tells them to buzz off even when she's in heat.

I have had vets and biologists tell me that mammals can be homosexual and that mounting animals of the same sex is not always dominance. So I don't know why you think you know more than they do and are telling me to 'be careful' not to say that my horse seems to be gay basically. 

Why should I 'be careful' are you saying there is something wrong with animals displaying homosexual interest or activity?


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

and YES I agree that she is buddy sour for some reason just with this one horse even though she's lived at many different barns for longer time and regularly rides with many, many different horses on a regular basis even more often than with this one.

But I was always able to as you say ride her through her buddy sourness with this mare before. I know this is bizarre but when we ride just the two of them they both go into heat right away but when we ride with a third horse they don't and therefore I'm still able to separate them with zero problem even if the third horse doesn't leave with us. Like recently the gf and her barnmate met up w us for a ride and all was good when I went to ride home.

I have NEVER given into her I always make her seperate once I have asked her to.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

whinniesandnickers said:


> Actually homosexuality is common in nature with animals as it is with humans. Any mammal biologist or vet will tell you is. So it actually is normal. Just because my mare has only fallen in love w another mare doesn't make her stupid.
> 
> I think what happens is once they see each other on the trail they both go into heat because both will not be in heat and then as soon as they see each other they are both squirting and winking and the other mare squeels like a pig.
> 
> ...


This topic has gone from the mare's dangerous behavior towards humans to the mare's homosexual behavior. 

I now understand why posters have said the story keeps changing. 

Asking if the mares feel that they are each others mating partners is not a horse training issue in my opinion.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

whinniesandnickers said:


> and YES I agree that she is buddy sour for some reason just with this one horse even though she's lived at many different barns for longer time and regularly rides with many, many different horses on a regular basis even more often than with this one.
> 
> But I was always able to as you say ride her through her buddy sourness with this mare before. I know this is bizarre but when we ride just the two of them they both go into heat right away but when we ride with a third horse they don't and therefore I'm still able to separate them with zero problem even if the third horse doesn't leave with us. Like recently the gf and her barnmate met up w us for a ride and all was good when I went to ride home.
> 
> I have NEVER given into her I always make her seperate once I have asked her to.



Buddy sour is buddy sour. Period. 

It is irrelevant that the mare does or does not go into heat. It doesn't matter. 

Training is training. 

If you aren't getting anywhere with her, yet you say you never let her get away with it, then something must be off with your timing. 

Demand her attention. Again, I don't care if she's in heat. It's not an excuse. She still needs to listen. You need to figure out how to get the "thinking side" of her brain focusing on you in those situations. 

Personally, I find it hard to believe that this is the_ only_ problem the horse has. Often times, there are holes elsewhere in the training as well. As the Febreeze commercials say, we can become "nose blind" to them and miss that they are there. I would closely examine and pay attention to everything you do with her, and scrutinize if there are other things that also need your attention, to fix this problem.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Is she currently pastured with other mares? Does she try to mount them?

Horses can get ovarian tumors which will make them either continuously come in heat or make them think they are a stallion.

I believe there is a YouTube video of one such mare attempting to mount another mare. The mare was promptly spayed, as those tumors will get worse if left unchecked.

A mare mounting another is not normal. It may be normal for cows. Definitely not normal in horses.

You need to track her cycles and make sure she is cycling normally. If not, get the vet out. An ultrasound of her ovaries might be helpful.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Fyi, part of being buddy sour is that they only attach to one other horse. Gender doesn't have anything to do with it. So you may be fine riding with other strange horses. It usually is only one horse they react to... the one they have bonded with or spent the most time with.

Mares can be buddy sour with other mares, or geldings with other geldings.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

whinniesandnickers said:


> Hunny I have spoken to the owner of the other mare and both of us are absolutely sure (over 5 years) that both of these horses bring eachother into heat. How is it that consistently over 5 years that every single time we ride together they both start peeing, squirting, winking, etc...within 20 mins of meeting up (as long as it's just the two of them). Even if it's twice a week every week throughout the Winter?
> 
> When I rescued this mare she lived with mares and geldings and didn't act in a sexual way with any of the geldings. Only with one of the mares. She would let that mare mount her and she tried to mount that mare too. When boys try to do anything like this she promptly tells them to buzz off even when she's in heat.
> 
> ...


1st: I am not your "hunny." I have tried to be respectful of your situation in my posts and I have tried to bring knowledge to this issue you are having with your horse. Please be respectful of me. Thank you. 

Please read the link I posted and learn what "heat" means in horses. 

Your horse is reactive, NOT IN HEAT. :icon_rolleyes: Mares WILL squeal and squat and pee sometimes in the presence of other horses. A horse cannot say, "SQUEEEEEE I am so HAPPY to SEE YOU! I haven't seen you in an AGE! OOOOH OOOOH OOOH" then jump up and clap their hands. They CAN squat, pee, squeal, dance around and lose focus on their rider, and so forth and so they do. 

Now the story has changed from "only acting this way when in heat" (2 to 5 days in a 21 day cycle), to every time they meet they "bring each other into heat immediately" (physiologically impossible). 

And, as stated _it doesn't matter. _The issue is that she is buddy sour, focused on the buddy (that _happens to be a mare_) and not paying attention to you. 

When she starts to act like an @$$ and not like a horse, you dismount (for your own safety I assume). You don't seem to realize the horse just got rewarded when you do this. And when you lead her away she is bug eyed and trying to run you down. _Typical disrespectful and buddy sour behavior._ 

Anthropomorphising means transposing human behavior and emotions onto an animal. It is a dangerous road to travel because the person loses the boundary between human and animal behaviors, psychology and physiology (which are different in many ways, including female cycles where the human has a menstrual cycle but the animal has an estrous cycle). It can get the human hurt because the animal still has its behavior and boundaries intact. 

Anyway, this whole thread has gone from an interesting discussion seeking help to solve a training problem to a discussion of animal (sexual) behavior and a long series of excuses for this horse's behavior through anthropomorphising this horse's behavior as a love affair with another horse. 

It is, as I said previously, pure and simple Buddy Sour behavior. Horse needs a CTJ meeting and a black and white clarity of what is expected while someone is riding or leading her. No excuses. 

Good luck with her. And read that link. Mares do not "come in heat" within minutes when they meet each other, regardless of how it looks or how they exhibit behavior.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Smilie said:


> However, with additional info, it does look like this mare is extremely buddy sour, and of course,when in heat, all other vises will be amplified, including that buddy sourness


 This has been my impression from the start. I also believe that there are other aspects of this mare that make dealing with this problem more complicated. It sounds like the OP has brought her from being a total nut job to being manageable in most situations and deserves credit for that, but this is not your average well broke horse who's only vice is having become buddy sour. The fact that the mare only trusts the OP (and therefore can't go to a trainer) is a good indication that the mare still has other issues.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Unsubscribing


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Elana, I wasn't trying to disrespect you. I was just trying to be nice. I'm sorry if it came off as rude 

My mare does NOT squeel. The other mare does. Mine will start squirting and spreading her hindlegs and make the noise a stallion does, do the flemen response to smelling the other mare and winking almost constantly when we ride just the two of them. Both of us have total control of our mares in every other situation. If we ride with another horse they don't act sexual at all. It's just when we ride just to two of them. We have both tried all kinds of things, switching who is leading, walking as far apart as possible, working on keeping their attention on us through various excersizes we would normally use. Both of us have been training horses for over a decade (not that we know everything...obv we don't as we've never encountered this situation before). They still listen to us but are constantly winking, squirting, doing the flemen response, making that stallion nicker sound and spreading their legs to pee/squirt/wink when we stop. It hasn't limited our ability to ride but the seperating them is when things get problematic.

These are the facts and I'm really trying to ask for help as I've never seen this situation before. My mare really does listen to me in every other situation. We can ride beside a field with horses galloping, bucking, calling and she listens to be completely, we can ride with horses who are acting up, calling to eachother, spooking, etc... and she listens to me completely. 

I wish you could ask other people to know this horse because they would all tell you that it's not just my rose colored glasses that make me sure my mare is completely trusting and respectful of me and others in every other situation. Her vet and farrier and trainer friends of mine, barn owner, other boarders, people I trail ride with say they can't believe a deamon horse has turned into such an angel. I've even ridden her out on the trails bridleless and bareback (alone and with other horses), we jump like that, even sliding stops etc...with no issue and I swear that everyone who knows this horse would tell you this is her only issue now. I'm not saying we couldn't improve our side passes or autochanges or sliding stops for example. We aren't gran prix level and are always working towards improving our technique in every discipline we do but her respect and her try are always there with this one exception.

It's really tough through a forum to know the tone in which things are said and I hope you all understand that I am truly stumped and have just been entertaining possible reasons that others have brought up (if you read through all the posts you will see that) and am above all putting my energy into trying to find a solution for the BEHAVIOR not making exuses and saying it's ok that my horse acts this way because of a or b. What I am trying to do is figure out if one or more of those things are contributing factors how I could alter what I am doing with that in mind to CHANGE her Behavior!

Again I appreciate all ideas even if we don't agree. I know it's hard to get even close to the whole picture through a forum.

Thank you for any more suggestions of training strategies for this


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Texan 

It's not that she can't see a trainer. It's that I live in a very rural area and selection is VERY limited 

The reason I said she would attack a trainer is because I would be hiring the trainer to work with her issue. She has been attacking me in that situation so I expect she would also attack a trainer as she USED to do in lots of situations.

I don't want to risk anyone else's safety but my own. I dont' have kids so as far as I'm concerned if the way I end up leaving this world is trying to save an amazing horse who has worked though 49 out of 50 problems I consider that my perogative. Even if she killed me right there on the trail she wouldn't continue to act that way. She would follow my friend's mare back to her barn always being safe with people passing by on the trail (she is always conciencious of that). I consider this worth working through because as I and everyone who knows her would tell you this mare CAN get through this.

I'm just asking for ideas on how fellow forumers might approach it.

I don't NEED to ride with this other horse anymore so if I give it my best shot with all your suggestions as well as suggestions from other seasoned horse ppl and she continues to be dangerous in this situation OBVIOUSLY I will not continue to ride her with this horse. We have many, many other riding friends to go with.

But as I said I consider it a hole in her training just as her being cinchy used to be which if I didn't work through she would still be cinchy


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

> It's just when we ride just to two of them.


My advice is simple. Don't ride the two of then together. Don't meet on the trails. How hard can it be to avoid each other when riding?


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

-OR-
Ride together sometime soon, and have someone take a video of this all going down (from a safe distance). Then everyone can see what's happening rather than speculating/misinterpreting.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Up down:

Great solution and that is what I will do. Either from now on or after trying to work her through it.

I'm just worried it's a hole in the training somehow but considering it's such a specific issue I guess it could just be an anomolie. I would just like to know she gives me 100% of her focus in 100% of situations and I don't have to make accomodations for her to be 100% safe. But I guess the safest of horses can still lose some focus under certain situations like a cougar appearing or being stung by many wasps etc...(in our area a mare ripped her tendans out by running through a fence with ride on her who was a therapeutic/super safe horse and who's rider had always had total control in every other situation.

My mare has completely listened to me when encountering wild animals like cougars, packs or wolves and bears and while getting many wasp stings at once so I guess this weird sexual attachment/buddy soreness when they ride the two of them is her version of running through a fence?

Still I'm a perfectionist and would love to feel I could trust my horse to listen to me in 100% of situations that could ever appear. I guess we have to remember that they are animals after all as so many of you have reminded me.


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## whinniesandnickers (Aug 20, 2015)

Ergoan:

Fantastic idea! I actually have a video I took recently of how she flipped out when we tried to separate them but it's super dark as it was nearly dusk. By this point I had tied her to a tree and hit play as soon as I told me friend to ride off. It's really hard to see much but I can try to upload it 

How do you upload videos on here?


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

whinniesandnickers said:


> How do you upload videos on here?


If you do not have a free photobucket.com account, create one. Upload your pictures and videos to the photobucket account and then link the pictures or images into a post here.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I feel that this thread has more than run its course, gone around in circles and run out of new things to say so I'm going to close it for review


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

*Moderator's note:

This thread has been temporary closed. Just as a general rule (not pointing this thread out), if you suspect authenticity of something on HF.com, please don't make public troll call outs but report the said content to the Moderating Team.

Thanks!*


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