# Age to let a stallion breed



## Angel_Leaguer (Jun 13, 2008)

Alright... not sure if this has been brought up but when is the right age to use a stallion to actually do the deed of breeding?

I have been looking a lot online at ads like on craigslist or equine.com (no one on this forum)...etc and why are people using their stallions so young??? I have seen a handful of listings where the stud is 3 and they already have a crop of foals on the ground for 2009. That means the stud was 2 when he was breeding:shock::shock::shock:

At 2 a horse is still a baby- they are still maturing not only mentally but physically as well. Also they just haven’t proved themselves at 2 to be that stable minded horse that they are usually advertised as; nor have they proved themselves performance wise. Another thing that bugs be with stallion adds is when they have their 5 year old kid sitting on them (usually with no helmet or no one supporting their kid)... while all animals are unpredictable, stallions have the tendency to be the worst for horses. 

Anyways I really just needed to rant because those ads tick me off. I think if the stud is breeding worthy they shouldn’t start the deed until they are 5-6 years (but only my thoughts).

So what are your thoughts?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Two is way too young.

I was pestered by a mare owner to breed mine at age 3 and I refused because he had mot matured enough. I did breed that mare (his first) at age 5 and it was the right time then.

A male horse is a stallion at age 4 and that is fine to start at that age unless you have temperment, handling or maturity problems.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Angel_Leaguer said:


> Alright... not sure if this has been brought up but when is the right age to use a stallion to actually do the deed of breeding?
> 
> I have been looking a lot online at ads like on craigslist or equine.com (no one on this forum)...etc and why are people using their stallions so young???


They are doing it because the horse is cute and the owner wants to make money. It doesn't make sense but people do many things that don't make sense.


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## shmurmer4 (Dec 27, 2008)

Old enough to have accomplished something.


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## Qtswede (Apr 16, 2009)

Old enough to have finished growing for sure. I don't like to use studs that haven't gone through at least saddle training - meaning they must be good on the trails, at least to consider them. I don't like the old pasture studs that never go anywhere or do anything but breed like crazy. I like them to be fully grown so that you can judge his conformation correctly, and trained so you know how his temprament is. Around here, it seems to be around 4 or 5.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

I agree with you all that putting a two or three year old "out to stud" to the public to make a buck on stud fees is a bad plan, and that proving him is important before making a breeding career for him. however, I know of responsible programs who had covered a few of their own select mares with a two-three year old prospect, and continued his training, and then had offspring to evaluate from proven mares along with evaluating the individual performance of the stallion himself. if his offspring are not up to snuff, he can be gelded and continue on as a perfromer, sans testicles.

Breeding a 2 or 3 year old colt is not like breeding a 2 or 3 year old filly-- his body does not have to cope with growing a baby for 11 months while he himself is also growing-- and correctly managed, breeding does not have to be damaging to his mental development. 

The key is well thought out, well managed breeding with a purpose, rather than breeding willy nilly just because he has functional testicles.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

shmurmer4 said:


> Old enough to have accomplished something.


Totally agree.


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

Two is way too young, and i would also say 4 as a breeding age. But i have to disagree with letting kids ride stallions. I have met mares more temperamental than stallions ive met. Now i dont disagree but the kids should be wearing helmets on a two year old regardless of its sex.


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## Prodomus (Jun 8, 2009)

I have bred my colt as a 2 yr old and I can say that I think it was the best thing I could have done for him. Flame suit on.

For one thing he is very large and teaching him to live cover is a part of his training - teaching him made sense to me. He learned on an experienced mare and he was very easy to handle. He handled it like a pro and now knows the job required. Physically he is definitely sexually mature.

He has learned a whole breeding routine - and knows what is what - knows when he is working and when he is going for a breeding. He totally knows the difference and has become a much better and mature horse since the breeding.

Secondly, I want to see what he throws and by the time he is 4 or 5 and we want to start marketing him he will already have some babies on the ground and in training so that the results can be seen.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

^^agrre with the reasons above^^

I don't agree with breeding young stallions just to make a profit, but I think it makes sense to breed a few mares when the stallion is young IF you plan on showing him. That way by the time he has proved himself in the show ring, mare owners can see the quality of the foals he produces


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Just say no to breeding (in the USA) at any age. Unless you're breeding some rare, about to be extinct breed, you can stop now, we have plenty, lol. Start back up in a year or 10, when there's a real demand again... ;-)

JMO


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>>> Just say no to breeding (in the USA) at any age. Unless you're breeding some rare, about to be extinct breed, you can stop now, we have plenty, lol. Start back up in a year or 10, when there's a real demand again... _

I sort of disagree with the above. 
The reason that some breeds/types are rare is because there is LESS demand for them-- they fill a narrow, specific niche. Breeders of rare breeds/types who can maintain preservation herds for their own pleasure, or to maintain genetic diversity among the small pool of breeders working with a rare breed, should do so-- but only on a limited basis, as these rare specialty horses often do not easily find homes outside in "general" horsedom. (and most preservation breeders know this and breed accordingly-- its when the rarer specialty types become the latest "fad" and "upstart" new breeders jump in to try to get famous and rich breeding them that it gets disastrous-- look at dog breeding trends as an example.)

On the other hand, there ARE types and disciplines where there is no "rarity" of breed, yet there IS still real demand-- often greater demand than the current supply. IMO breeding should NOT cease in these instances, because good experienced responsible homes exist for these types of horses with people who would not easily find what they are looking for at a friday night sale or from a low dollar irresponsible BYB or rescue.

AND, even if you COULD find what you are after at a BYB-type sale, isn't buying from these venues in a way encouraging continued irresponsible low-end production? Wouldn't it be better in the long run to buy from established, responsible breeders to encourage responsible breeding, rather than "saving" a horse from a sale-- just to have its breeder produce more of the same the next year to again take to the sale? (after all, they were able to unload all the 2009 babies... people must love 'em.....why not make more!?! Business is sure to pick up!)

I would encourage people looking for an equine partner to think long and hard about taking a chance on buying a horse who has an unknown pedigree, unknown training, unknown ownership record, and an unknown history of prior care-- and encourage them to check out reputable breeders/owners who can provide vet, farrier, and care records and a horse that matches its breed association papers. 

I am not saying that gems cannot be found among the disadvantaged and unknown-- I know they can, and I know some people are willing to take the risk and some will end up with a great horse--- just saying that if we want fewer disadvantaged and undocumented horses coming from irresponsible homes, avoiding and/or discouraging responsible breeders who keep good records and high breeding and care standards is not a solution. 

It is my observation that when, for whatever reason, responsible breeders producing nice mid-range horses pack up and quit, all too often the void is filled by irresponsible BYB type breeders who are not "getting the memo" about reducing breeding.... (and who are more likely to randomly breed any ol' unproven 2 year old colt to whatever mare comes his direction just because he is kolerful and speshul and has his equipment because he is purty and they want the stud fees-- to get back to the original topic of this thread )


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

luvs2ride1979, was that picture really appropriate or necessary? There are children here.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

ilovemyPhillip said:


> luvs2ride1979, was that picture really appropriate or necessary? There are children here.


 
My thoughts exactly.

As far as breeding young - it really depends on the purpose. I have a two year old filly out of a stallion that was two at the time the mare was covered. The stallion owner specifically bred to a mare proven to throw good, consistent offspring. If the resulting foal would of been 'blech', the stud would of been cut. He was not used as a three year old - in training and to give our filly time to start maturing to see what she was like.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Eastowest said:


> It is my observation that when, for whatever reason, responsible breeders producing nice mid-range horses pack up and quit,


 
Pretty much what I have done with my stud. He is very well bred with Olympic medal winers all over his pedigree. He breeds true in that he produces himself no matter what he has been bred to and all of them are strong healthy well tempered babies that could go in any discipline the owner wanted.

I simply don't bother to advertise anymore.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

> luvs2ride1979, was that picture really appropriate or necessary? There are children here.


Oh pooh, y'all don't have any sense of humor... You went and made poor iride have to delete my fun picture and spoil my post. 

And yes, it was quite appropriate. Most kids learn about these kinds of things in school around 4-5th grade. Most "kids" on here are older than that... I found the picture with a simple google image search, even with their "content filter" turned on. There's nothing wrong with a photo of two horses mating. It wasn't like it was a video set to mood music with close-ups... Which I bet you'd be able to find on YouTube.com... :wink:


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

My point is, we have too many horses in the USA right now, or have you not noticed the slump in prices? Supply has risen above demand, so prices fall. It's simple Econ 101. To reconcile the market, supply needs to be reduced, to match demand. The only way to do that in the horse industry is to STOP BREEDING, at least for a while, or SERIOUSLY cut back. 

There are plenty of nice and even great stallions out there, but there are even MORE mediocre or poor quality stallions. The mediocre to poor quality mares out there breeding outnumber good or great mares by 3 to 1, and that's being generous... Unless your foals are selling high, and by that I mean HIGHER than pre-9/11 prices, then that's your cue that you should quit, or seriously cut back to only your best mares. Many people have done that, but many have not. I know a few breeders who are producing MORE foals to make up for the slump in prices... Red (the dad from That 70s Show) comes to mind, his key phrase, lol. Breeding more will only further hurt the market and it will take longer to recover.

So, whenever I can, I slip in my "stop breeding" comments, in hopes that maybe someone will take it to heart. ;-)

_(and no, bringing back slaughter won't help, it will only put a small bandaid on a LARGE wound, and pro-long the healing process...)_


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I haven't really noticed a big drop in higher cquality horses. When looking for a horse in the $20,000 range, the prices hadn't really dropped ;-)

And it is the responsible owners who breed higher quality horses. So, if they did the "responsible" thing and stooped breeding, then there would just be a lot of low quality horses and not enough high quality ones.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Yes, and I did say:



> *Unless your foals are selling high, and by that I mean HIGHER than pre-9/11 prices*, then that's your cue that you should quit, or seriously cut back to only your best mares.


So sure!, if a breeder's foals are selling at those high prices EASILY, then it wouldn't make sense to cut back or stop producing those foals. However, that's not the case in 90% of breeders selling their foals.

If a breeder is the type to breed, raise, train, THEN sell, then sure, maybe prices will come back up by the time this year's crop is ready to sell. And if their current trained horses are selling well, then of course there's no reason to stop or cut back. However, that's not the case in most of the horse market. Even the expensive horses are taking a hit in many areas.


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

luvs2ride1979 said_>>>>>So sure!, if a breeder's foals are selling at those high prices EASILY, then it wouldn't make sense to cut back or stop producing those foals. However, that's not the case in 90% of breeders selling their foals._

BUT But but, your first "quit yer breedin'" post on this thread said:

_"""Just say no to breeding (in the USA) at any age. Unless you're breeding some rare, about to be extinct breed, you can stop now, we have plenty, lol. Start back up in a year or 10, when there's a real demand again...""" _

Breeding something that is selling for good money is not the same as breeding to preserve something rare or nearly extinct..... ??


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

I was being broad and sarcastic in my first post... I guess you missed the graphic...??


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Then we get the people you can only shake your heads at.

*Quarter Horse For Stud, Minnesota, Waterville*

Stallion...age 2 offered for breeding but looking at the description I notice that they have foal expected from him in the spring of 2009 which means it *was bred as a yearling stud colt !*


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

_>>>> I was being broad and sarcastic in my first post... I guess you missed the graphic...??_ 

Nope, didn't miss the graphic. It was a highly illustrative anti-breeding slogan-- graphic, but not necessarily sarcastic, IMO.

I'm sorry that I didn't realize you were being sarcastic, as I was reading the words exactly as you wrote them, not attempting to infer or assume anything else. 

One of the drawbacks of typed communication-- it can be pretty tough to recognize sarcasm without voice inflection, facial expression, or if all else fails, :wink:winky emoticons:wink:.....


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

:roll:


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

Alrighty. Then.:wink:

Back to the original topic-- here are some pretty informative articles regarding breeding, that all mention the pros and cons and/or general guidelines of using of 2 year old stallions for breeding, among other things.

G2790 Horse Breeding Arithmetic: 2 + 2 = 1 | University of Missouri Extension

http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-2085/ANSI-3922web.pdf

Miniature Horse Stallion Fertility


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

No i disagree. Photography of sexual content is prohibited here (if i remember correctly) to "keep it clean". sorry to ruin your "fun", whatever, i know kids can use the internet but i dont think the forum wants to support those images.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think it's ridiculous to tell people to STOP breeding. There isn't an influx of horses, there's an influx of bad horses. Comparing BYB to quality sporthorses selling in the tens of thousands is somewhat ridiculous. Not to mention, the people breeding quality sporthorses have no interest in having a horse sell for a few hundred bucks after they spent thousands just producing the foal. They're smart enough to realize when to back off for a season or two.

And quite frankly, slaughter WOULD help. Slaughter was never the issue, the methods used were the issue. Right back to the old song and dance of everyone having the answer and nobody knowing the question. So now we have a massive influx of badly bred horses who are being abused, starved and neglected ANYWAY because nobody can afford to feed them, and can't even afford to put them down unless they know how to use a gun. 

I would personally never breed to a 2 year old stallion. I don't have a huge issue with it, but I would just never use a stallion that didn't already have some accomplishments. And heck, those accomplishments could be just siring champions, I don't believe a good stud also has to be a good showhorse. A lot never get that chance because of personal reasons or injuries, etc. But I expect at LEAST some quality foals to look at before I'd consider using a stud.


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