# Interested to see what you can pick!



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi Kayty,

I am not sure but are you asking for a critique? Your level of dresssage is well above mine, so not sure if I can offer anything. I think you two look nice , though it looks like both of you are working really hard; not much relaxation evident. The only specific thing I noticed in several shots is that you kind of either drop your inside shoulder or kind of kink it up against your neck. Just some tension or force happening there that might translate down into a twist of the spine, maybe even into the hips.

He is a lovely horse and you are a very skilled rider.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yeah tiny, if anyone has anything to offer it'd be great 

Yes you are very right regarding the tension, he is a very tense nervous horse naturally, though settled immensely today. He's far better off the leg now, so you can imagine how terrible he was when I started! I'll have to try and get a video sorted out, gives you a better idea of what he looks like working. When he gives and relaxes he can really move, but when he's tense he's very much a leg mover and looks flashy, but I have no connection from his hind legs to the bridle.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

> Your level of dresssage is well above mine, so not sure if I can offer anything.


Ditto this!

I think if you can continue to manage his nervousness and tension, he has the potential to be a very nice horse. The difference between the first photo (tense and not through) and the second (more relaxed, using his back, much more reach forward with both fronts and hinds) illustrates this. 

Looks like he still likes to lean to the inside, particularly at the canter. 

No critique of you, except for whatever odd thing you're doing with your hands in the 4th photo! I understand the photo just caught you at an odd moment.

Good luck with him!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Thanks Maura. Yes he does like to lean in on canter, but at this stage I'm not being too fussy about this, as long as he goes forward and stays soft and relaxed. His owner could not even pick up canter without his disuniting and swinging his quarters wildly, and she is one of our states top FEI riders :S 

Haha yes, odd hands! I usually ride with my hands very quiet and forward, but Roger had me doing all sorts in this lesson as Bob was being a bit of a ******, bracing at the poll and then backing right off the forward when I'd take a contact. So one hand was wide, the other up and vice versa - looks yuck, but worked!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I could never hope to have any advice that you would actually need to take. You ride amazingly, and you make a lovely pair with Bob. The only thing I see is your head position - you seem to look down a bit. Hold your head high with pride, you surely deserve to


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

I think you are doing a great job with him! After reading your "essay"--which it wasn't lol--it looks like he's improving with reaching for contact. He's still a bit behind the bit but if he was always avoiding and sucking back, you've done a great job helping him along. The only other thing I notice which isn't as bad as I used to do it, is I think you're over bending him through your turns. To me, the last photo looked nice as far as bend. 

As for you--although you've already mentioned it--look up!! You can definitely tell its effecting your upper body. Bring your shoulders up and settle them back. Sit up tall!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

The one thing that stands out to me in these photos is the inconsistency. While I understand that you are focusing on getting more relaxation and know what it feels like, the key to success is consistency.
I know you said not to comment on the looking down. I know you said it's a habit - I have some myself! But you must be spot on before you can expect the horse to begin to collect. The position you are in right now is a common one for people who are on young horses a lot. It protects your back from jarring movement which is common on young horses and is defensive enough that if something happens you're secure, while allowing motion to move through your seat. However, to progress YOU need to become more consistently in balance. This comes by balancing your upper body, which is difficult and requires core strength because even with your good base, you are still balancing a lever on a hinge vertically while on a moving object. To help you, your shoulders need to drive into your hips and your elbows should physically touch them. Focus a lot on balancing your body equally from front to back and side to side - I think you will find as you are consistently in one place - the horse will stay with you a little better. Instead of trying to follow him too much say to him with your body - I am here, this is where I am staying and you should be here too. This will help his consistency.
I am assuming these photos are in a succession and I see that the horse, while becoming more relaxed, is doing so at the expense of you having control. While this is a compromise that you may have had to make in the past, this is not one that can be made in the future. If you want to progress you have to start to be able to keep his body more under your thumb while keeping the relaxation. The first thing that I notice is the wigglyness in the bend. He goes from overflexed in the neck on a straight away to completely straight through a corner. You must be albe to maintain one degree of bend through everything and be able to make adjustments in it - not that you need to take the neck straight or over flexed to make a small adjustment.
I think that one you have established riding consistently in one place in balance and having more control over the position of the neck once he gets through the initial resistance you will have an easier to ride and more consistent horse.
Good luck!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Anabel

One of your best, most informative posts!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Agree^^^


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Gemini - the overbending is explained in my 'essay'. The clinician was asking me to really bend him to the right as this is where he locks, so it was bend to the right, and push him forward at the same time, as Bob seems to think he can't go forward without bracing, and can't soften without slowing  I certainly don't always ride him like that! Again as I said - I usually ride him up and out rather than down and in  


Thank you very very much Anebel!! You are spot on with my position, haha can you tell that my income comes from riding young and green horses! I haven't ridden anything over elementary in months, since I got really cracking on the youngsters. Will have to make an effort to book a few lessons on something more experienced again to get my upright and tidy position back. 

As for inconsistently, these unfortunately aren't in sequence. The friend that took them just emailed a whole bunch through in no particular order. That's why there's some very bend to the inside and others a little more up and straight. We were moving his neck radically for the whole lesson, putting it up, putting it down, putting it to the right and then keeping him straighter to the left as he does not block so badly to the left. At home I will as the neck higher and lower through my session, to test if I can put it where I want, but as for lateral bend, I generally only ask at the poll, seeing if I can move the poll left, keep it there, straighten, then right, to test his suppleness and find any blocks there. 
Probably not the best set of photo's to judge how I normally have a horse going because they're from a clinic that was significantly different to how I've been working him on my own. 
I'll have to see if I can rustle up someone to grab some more photo's when I'm working him at home so you can see the difference. 

Thank you!!


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

I am afraid I do not know much about Dressage position, but I hope I can still help you.

I think your arms need just a _touch _more bend in them.

Also, keep your heels _down. _I know that in Dressage this tends to not be a problem for reasons I can't remember, but I would still try to make it a habit- especially on a young horse.

Also, your leg position bothers me in several of these pictures. I'm not sure if this is because of your discipline, though.

I know you said you didn't want comments saying to look up, but I will just say to try and keep your chin up. If you have your chin up, most of the time your eyes will follow.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Cinder thanks for your input however I think there's some cross discipline mix up going on. 

Arms, in dressage we try to keep a straight line to the horse's mouth. If I bend my elbows more in some of those, I'd be riding like Heath Ryan with a broken contact to the bit. When the horse comes up into a higher frame, the elbows bend more as the hands come up to maintain that line through to the bit. 

Heels, they are down  We don't ride like hunters or other disciplines that JAM the heel down. In dressage, the heel should be the lower point, but not by a huge amount. If you're jamming the heel down it pushes the lower leg forward and the joints of your leg brace which reduces the shock absorber effect of the leg and ankle in dressage. 

Leg position, don't really know what you're seeing - can you please elaborate? I have always been told I've got a really solid, stable and correct leg position for my sport. I am however, riding a touch shorter than what I would on a more educated horse, just because it gives a little more stability on a horse that you know can really go to town


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Everybody else already covered the obvious. I just wanted to point out how much your position exactly mimics what his position is doing in pics 2, 3 & 4. It's really a fascinating sequence. Just open those shoulders up. Like my instructor once told me, open your cabinet and show the girls off!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Haha thankyou MBP, yeah I'm a ****** with my shoulders, as Anebel said it's quite a defensive riding position from riding green horses. Bob is not so good over the back yet and his canter is also quite jarring as he's not terribly balanced and I have to work quite hard to stop him from changing behind - a 'lovely' habit of his which is a ****** of a thing to break! So my position is certainly not what it would be on something more educated. 
I'll have to see if I can get some photo's of me on my trainer's FEI horse, it's interesting to compare your position between two very different horses. On the more experienced horse I don't usually have a problem with my upper body, I sit upright and have excellent control of my core to control collection. 
Unfortunately this goes out the window on the green ones!!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

From what you've said about this horse's past, you're doing fantastic with him. Hell, if you put me on that horse, I'd probably be first in fetal position and ultimately with me face in the dirt!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Haha no he's not that bad!!! Just quite tricky. The clinician I went to said the same thing, that he was quite a 'tricky' little horse. I think most people doubted that I'd be able to do anything with him, considering one of of top FEI riders owns him and can't get anything out of him! 
He can put in a few nice bucks and his evasion method to get away from contact is to stop, jack, then run flat out backwards and threaten to stand up. He's a very 'wobbly' horse and likes to find any gaps in your riding to get out of working. Quarters will swing left, so you 'plug that hole', then quarters will swing right, so you fix that, then shoulder will drop to the inside, then other shoulder will bulge to the outside, then chin is on the chest, then back up in the air, then opens his mouth, shakes his head.... little snot knows every evasion method under the sun so is really testing my riding ability!!! But I still love him


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

Wow you are lucky he is pretty. I have always wanted a warmblood but there so expensive.


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

He is sure a looker. I really like him...you are a great rider


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

haha thankyou ladybugs, thankfully I haven't brought him yet, I've just got him on lease as his owner can't ride him so he would be otherwise sitting out in the paddock. 
Warmbloods are nice horses, but they're not the equine 'dreamboat' that some people seem to think they are, definitely not easy to until you get really used to them and their quirks.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

Kayty said:


> Leg position, don't really know what you're seeing - can you please elaborate? I have always been told I've got a really solid, stable and correct leg position for my sport. I am however, riding a touch shorter than what I would on a more educated horse, just because it gives a little more stability on a horse that you know can really go to town


Actually your leg position is how I picture what I want mine to be like! Solid and at the right place. Coming from a hunt seat background I tend to try pull my leg back too far. Grrr. 

I really have nothing else substantive to add. I think you guys look great! Cant wait for more pictures as you progress!


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## louby (Mar 11, 2011)

Firstly Hi, Im new to this forum and have found it as I was googling 'horse drawing tongue back' and it brought me to your post. I wondered if you could let me know how you stopped him doing this? Ive owned my horse 8 yrs now, compete at dressage and this 'issue' is causing us no end of problems. Mainly not being able to truely have a proper contact or get him working properly between hand and leg. Id really appreciate your advice.
Love your photos, he looks lovely.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Louby, my boy has been the same. Since he was broken he apparently was extremely fussy in the mouth and drew his tongue back. 
I ride him in a cavesson and flash attachment, and because the habit is so excessive when he gets stressed (when he's calmly working at home he's not too bad now, but as soon as he's put under pressure the mouth starts going!) it is proving tremendously difficult to break. 
This particular clinician has taken a rather more forceful method of breaking the habit, one which I probably would not do on my own. But he has asked me to ride him with the cavesson tightened to the point where Bob cannot open his mouth at all, he can chew, but not open it. 
The first day of having his noseband this tight he was not impressed and carried on like a pork chop! But the second day he settled right down and I could feel an enormous difference in my ability to maintain a steady contact and get a connection.
So we are thinking that we'll work him in a fairly tight noseband for a couple of weeks and then loosen it again to see if he'll get back into his mouth issues or not.
If not, then the next plan is to see what he does in a hanging cheek snaffle to try and stablise the bit in his mouth a little more. He is currently in a loose ring french link that is fairly thick, so it would not be sitting fixed in his mouth and possibly adding to his fussyness.


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## louby (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks Kayty. Sorry for jumping in on your post and changing the subject . My boys the same. Ive tried a flash and a drop noseband but he ends up rubbed as his mouth is that active so I end up taking it off after a couple of days. The drop seems better for him though. I dont think I could get the flash much tighter as Ive tried that too :-(, so Im trying a loose cavesson at the moment but it isnt working. He does feel so much better with the flash on even though hes still doing it.
I have tried a hanging cheek too and it does help but it seems to lack 'the feeling' of a loose ring and he often feels a bit 'dead', if you know what I mean. He is currently in a thinner KK Ultra as he has a fleshy mouth.
Id love to know how you get on, so I will keep watching. Please let us know how you get on.
Thanks again


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Not worried at all about you jumping into the thread 
You can get a piece of rubber that fits around the bottom of your cavesson to stop it rubbing, that seems to have worked for Bob. Not sure where you're located but I got mine through the Anky saddlery range. 

I'll certainly let you know how he goes with it. I have found that he improved dramatically once I started really focussing on getting him working behind and into the bridle. His owner always rode him in draw reins and was quite heavy handed, so being light and elastic in the hand has certainly helped to an extent. 
But other than that, will have to keep chipping away and trying new things until we find something that works.
It's great to hear that I'm not the only one trying to deal with this problem, it drives me insane!!


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

You are a beautiful rider and you and Bob make such a great team.

I am immensely jealous.









*stomps off*


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Hahahahaha Eliz  Oh this is slight deja vu from a certain dressage thread!! But thankyou!


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## louby (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks for that Kayty, I will have a look now. Im based in the UK.
His flash strap rubs the sides of his lips under the bit too, so I feel mean :-(.
Ive been working on getting him off my leg but at the moment it results in him speeding up in a pony stride fashion but Im sure we will get there. It seems one step forward and 20 back at the moment. Ive never been able to find any one who is having the same problem so I was  when I found this.
I did however find an interesting theory the other night. Hope this works
[IceHorses] Tongue Over The Bit / Nosebands


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_Kayty....I wish I was as a lovely rider as you are, but that is not the case... *pout*_

_The only thing that I can really see is that your hands never seem to be in the same position. Sometimes they are more flat, then go more towards thumb on top, and everything in between._

_Someone already mentioned it, but I also saw the shoulder dropping and scrunching._

_But really.....I am definitely not at any level to give you a critique. LOL. _


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Can you get a softer/more padded flash strap for him? That might help, mines really soft leather so haven't had a problem with it rubbing, yet!
I'll have a look at that link when I get a chance, thank you!

Velvets, cheers  As for my hands - I think I said in another post somewhere, I was being asked to do all sorts by the clinician, so hands where a bit all over the place. I'm usually good with my hands they where they're meant too 

Was meant to be competing today but my bloody car broke down half way there at 7am, not happy! So will have to get photo's next time, will be a bit easier to critique when I'm riding normally not with a clinician  

In the meantime (and louby this might help you??), I'll be doing a heap of in hand work with him on the lunge and in long reins. I did a session with him last night and it seemed to do some very good things for his mouth, as well as getting his confidence to be able to 'sit', so hopefully that will start to transfer to under saddle work.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

A couple from my ride today. Not terribly helpful for critiquing Bob as he was being an absolute horror head today, had to have the battle of you CAN accept a contact horse and you CAN move away laterally from a leg, it's not terrible hard!
So these are a few 'lucky' shots in between the tantrums. 



















Excuse the size of my backside in this one, it is the bane of my existence. **** genes, how can I have a flat stomach with a giant, flabby bum... when I exercise regularly and eat well. 









And proof that I actually CAN sit a little bit of dirt - not that this was anything big, it was his 'warmup' for bringing out the big guns later in the piece... when I told the kid taking photo's to turn the camera off!! 

medium-2.mp4 video by kaytynfoxy - Photobucket


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I don't see big flabby bum - I see dressage rider with a sensitive seat =P

I know you said not to comment on your head being down, and I promise, this isn't exactly that. I think your head being down is coming from your neck. It almost looks like you are jutting your whole head forward IYKWIM? I would expect that the back of your head would be at least in line with your back, and it's forward of that. My advice - go get a massage and see if it is tension. If it's not, well, you got a massage at least lol.

You ride beautifully


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I wouldn't be surprised if it IS tension or something out somewhere Chiilaa. I've been sore lately, probably due to visit the chiro soon I guess. I got thrown really badly a few years ago, thrown off into a fence, horse fell and come down on top of me then got up and dragged me at a gallop across the arena. I tore ligaments and tendons in my hip and groin, and demolished the muscles up the right side of my back all the way up to my shoulder. Didn't help my shoulder which had already been dislocated on a few occasions so a little crooked already! 

I've been stiff and sore lately up that side of my body but putting off going to the chiro again. Might have to do it and hope that it's whats putting my upper body out when I ride.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Oh gosh that sounds horrific!


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