# Working Buggy/Wagon/Carriage Horses...



## churumbeque

Chele11 said:


> We live in Amish country and own an Expedition that gets about 10-12mpg. At $3.50+/- a gallon, we're not going many places these days in it! We have a car that my hubby uses for work (commutes almost an hour away!) but we're seriously contemplating buying a buggy or wagon to drive us to town for groceries/friends, etc instead of using a modern mode of transportation.
> 
> I know SQUAT about driving horses or the equipment. Will a Halfie pull a buggy without any problems or will the pole be too small? I'd rather have a draft trained that can pull a buggy AND a wagon than have a horse for a buggy and a draft for a wagon...
> 
> Thoughts? Anyone else crazy enough to do this?!?!!?!??!


What are you refering to when you ask if the pole is too small? A pole is for a pair and why would it be too small for a haflinger which is not big? You buy the proper equipment for the size of horse.

With your experience level you could be a danger to your self and others driving on the road. It is a big investment to get good equipment to save a small amount of money while taking alot more time.


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## smrobs

You might want to acquaint yourself with some of the Amish folks from your area. They could teach you everything you would need to know about driving, harness, gear, carts, wagons, etc. Plus, probably give you some hands on training before you just dive in with a horse of your own. While you are doing all that, you can start stocking up money for the equipment because Churumbeque is correct, it isn't cheap to get everything you need.


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## Chele11

churumbeque said:


> What are you refering to when you ask if the pole is too small? A pole is for a pair and why would it be too small for a haflinger which is not big? You buy the proper equipment for the size of horse.
> 
> With your experience level you could be a danger to your self and others driving on the road. It is a big investment to get good equipment to save a small amount of money while taking alot more time.


Thanks for the vote of confidence. I don't recall saying I'd grab a buggy/wagon and attempt to hook up a horse and just drive. Nothing in my post even suggested such. Perhaps before implying I might be a danger, you should READ what I wrote: "I know SQUAT about driving horses or the equipment."

I am, however, attempting to educate myself prior to purchasing anything and it has and always will be my opinion that learning requires handson experience. My intention is to talk with the Amish in my area who are more apt to teach but at the moment, I am simply posing questions and looking into the possibilities.

As for the pole/halfie question. I will reiterate that I know diddly about equipment. A halfie may be small compared to other drafts but the breed is definitely not small in comparison to other driving horses. I will readily admit - again - that my knowledge is limited and still needs improvement. Thanks, tho, for jumping in and helping!


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## Reiterin

I second what everyone has already said. but for the record, of course a halflinger could pull a buggy.


ETA:


> My intention is to talk with the Amish in my area who are more apt to teach but at the moment, I am simply posing questions and looking into the possibilities.


If you can get lessons and your horse is safe on the roads (after his training) I don't see why you couldn't drive your horse.

I think by the way you wrote your original post, it sounded a little like the _only_ reason you want to drive your horse is to not drive your car. But if you really want to learn to drive your horse ALSO for the joy of driving your horse... Go for it! It is very rewarding!! 


Everyone starts out as a beginner.


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## churumbeque

I think it would take along time to gain the experience and knowledge needed to do what you want safely and it does not make sense to save a little gas. Most do not understand the amount of time, money, and training and you might think you are ready before you should trek out to town and again be a danger to yourself and others.


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## Chele11

I understand it's not going to be a quick solution! We have another vehicle to use and a neighbor who can drive us (with a truck) if I absolutely need to go somewhere. 

I am not dependent upon my vehicle for anything other than an emergency bc I work from home and do most of my other errands when my husband and I are both home. At least, I am now that my horse is no longer being boarded and is here at home!!

I also understand the task can be expensive. I wouldn't expect it to be otherwise, since simply being able to ride is expensive - saddles are not cheap! That's why we are looking into it prior to making a final decision/transition. We're simply contemplating it at this point. 

Driving would be enjoyable to me simply because it would put us back to simple living which is something I've always wanted to do. I think I was born in a totally different century!!!


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## sharick

I was always a rider, not a driver when first getting into horses. I than decided to try my hand at driving and absolutely loved it. Now I would rather drive than ride. I was lucky and found a trainer who drove by horse and buggy/wagon everywhere. He knew alot of the amish. Told me I took to it like a duck to water. But again, been around horse's, and knew the dangers. It was alittle scary at first, as you don't have the use of your legs to help cue the horse, all communication is done thru driving lines and voice. It can be done, just takes time and a willingness to learn.
My trainer started me with a trained driving horse, than as my skills progressed, we went to horse's with less training. Not all horse's make good driving horse's. Your haflinger would be plenty big enough to pull buggy, just have someone evaluate your horse to see if he's a good prospect for driving. Want a very level headed, forward driving horse.
My driving horse is haflinger size and we go to town and back with no problem and town is about 13 miles away. I bought a horse with driving experience though. He was 3 1/2 yrs, old and gentleman had used him to go to town and back for groceries. He lived in a small Alabama town. 
Have put alot more miles on him since getting him in the last 2 1/2 yrs. I've owned him and he is a great driving horse, not much of a riding horse, but great at driving. Horse's sometimes have a preference, and will let you know which they prefer. LOL Some are good at both.
So, find you someone willing to show you the ropes and get started, you will love it. If you don't you can always go back to riding - just can't carry as many groceries.


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## stevehud58

Horsemanship is horsemanship, riding or driving. A lot of your knowledge will carry over into driving. 

You just need to find someone to teach you the specifics of driving. That almost needs to be a hands on teaching. If there is a harness or draft club near you, joining that will get you more help than you would ever need.

Getting into driving can be expensive as you make it. My training cart my neighbor and I made from scrap and had less than $100 into untill we added the hydraulic brakes.

All my harness I buy off off of Craigs list or at auction.

In the video section I placed a video of a haflinger (Pancho) pulling my training forcart


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## Chele11

I really need to start considering this as I absolutely refuse to drive anywhere if gas hits $4/gallon except for NECESSITIES. It's either driving or Chili gets a crash course in dependability to be ridden anywhere!


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## stevehud58

At lot of folks, I'm sure, will chuckle and roll their eyes at the idea. But if things don't change we will only be wishing for $4/gallon gasoline.

At $7 or $8 per gallon you'll be passing other folks in their pony carts too! And pass more than one saddle horse on your way to town.

Folks may be learning the old ways like the "Ride, Tie, & Walk" method of getting two people to town on one horse without riding double.

Steve


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## smrobs

LOL, I would be okay with that^^. I've got plenty good saddle horses and we've got a good team of mules and another team of good horses. Only problem would be that we would still have to drive to go get hay to feed the stinking things :lol:.


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## goodhors

Chele11 said:


> I understand it's not going to be a quick solution! We have another vehicle to use and a neighbor who can drive us (with a truck) if I absolutely need to go somewhere.
> 
> I am not dependent upon my vehicle for anything other than an emergency bc I work from home and do most of my other errands when my husband and I are both home. At least, I am now that my horse is no longer being boarded and is here at home!!
> 
> I also understand the task can be expensive. I wouldn't expect it to be otherwise, since simply being able to ride is expensive - saddles are not cheap! That's why we are looking into it prior to making a final decision/transition. We're simply contemplating it at this point.
> 
> Driving would be enjoyable to me simply because it would put us back to simple living which is something I've always wanted to do. I think I was born in a totally different century!!!


Being both a rider and driver, riding is NOTHING compared to costs of driving. Even with very nice saddles, cost of harness of quality (NOT the best stuff, but good), is often equal or more than the price of saddles. Getting good used stuff helps, but good stuff, good maker, does keep the value up in price. Seems like $1000. is getting to be more average now for a decent harness, can easily go more for better leather quality. Cheap can be a bargin or dangerous. I see stuff for sale that I would have thrown away, and folks standing in line to buy it!! Old, cracked, worn straps, bent buckle tongues and then doesn't even fit the horse! Repairs to make it safe cost more than buying a better harness would have.

Then you need to add in cost of a vehicle. Depending on what you want, price can vary quite a bit from a few hundred to a couple thousand. I strongly do NOT recommend buying and repairing one yourself, if you are not familiar with carriages. Too many things a beginner can miss, that are crucial in strength to integrity of vehicle. Most parts can be REPLACED. So don't fix up old pieces like pole, shafts, which are made to be replaced. Wood wears out, dries up, will snap when stressed. That can hurt you when it breaks and horse spooks. Wheels NEED to be looked at by a wheelwright, the person experienced in fixing, building wheels. LOTS of parts that can fail you in an older wheel, and YOU can't tell by just looking what is gone bad.

Then you add in training time, working with the equine, lessons for YOU in rein handling, harnessing, and there is probably several months to a year in learning for the horse and you. Then you are finally at the slightly past "green" stage, still needing actual road time, driving experience to gain confidence in each other.

Depending on your vehicle, you may or may NOT want to take it out in bad weather rain, cold, wind, for those trips you want to save fuel on. You have to dress up pretty warm, so you don't freeze in an open air vehicle. Do you have parking places for horse when you get to the store?

You have to get into Driving because it is fun. Looking at horse and buggy as an alternative to "saving driving the car, fuel costs" is not realistic. Too many details you must not ignore, just not like hopping in the car for a run to the store. Reading historical accounts, there were DAILY runaways, wrecks, damaged people and horses during those "good old days". And those old days folks dealt with equines and quirks on a DAILY basis, still had problems!!

There is way more to driving and carriages than it looks like. Horse has to be WAY MORE trained than a riding horse, accepting of many things, because ALL YOU HAVE are voice, reins, whip, to help him stay calm. Horse has to trust you to fix a problem, wait for help from you when frightened. A spook is NOT the same as pulling him around, while under saddle. 

Check with the ADS for local Driving Clubs, ask there for driving trainers to get lessons from, maybe train your horse. Amish are nice folks, but just because they drive horses, doesn't make them good horse trainers for your animal, good folks to learn from. Some just are not horse folks, though they use horses daily.

Just reading things the way you put them related to driving, is scary. Doris Ganton put out a nice beginner book on Driving, lots of clear photos. Often available used on Ebay. Might be a place to start learning about Driving.

Could be cheaper and faster, to get a VERY NICE bicycle and kiddy trailer for hauling stuff home in, cost savings. No upkeep with feeding, ready to go at a moments notice, and no lessons needed to use it!!


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## Saddlebag

My son put his girlfriend in our Easy Entry cart and took her for a ride as tho it were a rickshaw. He was surprised at light it was to pull even with her 160lbs in it.


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## Chele11

SMRobs - You've got a point but then, driving once a month to buy feed/hay is still worth it compared to driving everywhere we go.

I've all but given up on the buggy/cart notion unless I can get the Amish to teach me... On their own buggies and then if they have one to sell, that'd be great.

However.

If I can't get Chili straightened out to ride all the time, I'm seriously considering a more suitable mount for every day venturing.


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## smrobs

Right LOL. Heck, with the money saved in gas prices, I might even be able to afford to have the hay hauled in.

There is nothing wrong with thinking about a more steady horse for everyday cruising. I'm sure that Chili is a wonderful horse, but not all horses are destined to be those bombproof mounts that we need sometimes.

It couldn't hurt to ask someone in the Amish community if they would be willing to teach you (or let you pay for lessons). Even if you don't end up getting a cart and harness horse, the knowledge you could gain would still be invaluable.


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## Jumpergal101

Chele11 said:


> SMRobs - You've got a point but then, driving once a month to buy feed/hay is still worth it compared to driving everywhere we go.
> 
> I've all but given up on the buggy/cart notion unless I can get the Amish to teach me... On their own buggies and then if they have one to sell, that'd be great.
> 
> However.
> 
> If I can't get Chili straightened out to ride all the time, I'm seriously considering a more suitable mount for every day venturing.


I wouldn't even say it's worth it. How much time, cost and everything else you have to put into this isn't worth it if you just want to drive once a month to pick up stuff. 

Again, they have another point with the Amish. To be honest, not with all but from a few that I have come across, I did not like their training methods. 

There is a HUGE difference from being trained by people who do it to get around to someone who knows and has dedicated themselves to this. It's dangerous for you and the horse to be trained by someone who knows how to hook up a cart and go, they will train you that much and it's all good. That is what scares me. It's like having someone who has only done trail riding with the barns who give tourist rides try to give riding lessons to a kid who has never been on a horse or even touched one. 

What happens when your horse spooks? Will you be confident enough to handle that situation? What if a leather breaks while driving, can you figure that out? Or how about your horse picks up a bad habit, can you fix that?

Here's the kicker. Do you realize that most people are extremely uninformed about horses when pulling a cart or carriage? It is dangerous out on the road. There have been tons of accidents both to the horse and the driver because of drivers who either ignore or just plain don't understand what to do when they come across this. Is it worth the danger? Because you would have three present as soon as you hit the road which would be inexperience, your horse and the drivers around you. 

Final thing, money. After you finally accumulate all of this would they equal out or would there actually be a benefit from all of this.

I agree with everything Goodhors said. Buy a bike, that is as simple as it gets, doesn't cost much afterward (you don't have to mouths to feed, 8 feet to trim, 2 bodies to keep healthy, etc.) and it's great as far as exercise.

Ps. What is happening with Chili. You mentioned unless you get her straightened out to ride all the time? She still bucking?


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## Magaidh

Chele11 said:


> I really need to start considering this as I absolutely refuse to drive anywhere if gas hits $4/gallon except for NECESSITIES. It's either driving or Chili gets a crash course in dependability to be ridden anywhere!


If she's not dependable under saddle, don't drive her! Driving is a very scary thing if you don't have full mutual trust with your horse. 

I drive my Percheron cross gelding. When I started with him nine years ago, I was very inexperienced and I put my trust in someone who was NOT a good trainer. He was very rough and forceful, and had been taught by the Amish (I have heard terrible things about their training and treatment of horses, at least in this part of the world. Perhaps it differs in other communities). My big guy got jerked around and whipped into shape I think, because he came home very afraid but very obedient. We've worked through the fear and now I have quite a nice riding and driving gelding, but I do it for the joy of it.

If you're really interested in learning, find a reputable trainer who can help you. You'll have to put some money out, but the assistance of an experienced driver will be essential in building the foundations of safe driving with your girl. I wish I had done this.

And yes, sadly driving is expensive.  I have a buggy and two sleighs, and one harness, and all of this probably put me out upwards of $4500, not to mention keeping the horse. 

Best of luck whatever you decide! Driving is SO much fun and a little Haflinger would be awesome.


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## Reiterin

Magaidh said:


> If she's not dependable under saddle, don't drive her!


My horse is actually better in harness than under saddle. she is calmer.


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## VelvetsAB

Don't forget that your feed costs for your horse go up since its now working hard. Plus, its best to have 4 shoes on gravel so you don't wear their feet down too fast, and to help prevent bruising. 

You'll be out a bit of money to get going and for lessons, but if you are willing to learn, and be safe, then it isn't a bad idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chele11

I walked/trotted her on the road (under saddle) the other day (in between rain showers) and she did very well, considering I don't think she's ever ridden on the road (just trails). I'll definitely have to get her shoes tho bc she was pretty tender footed just walking & trotting the 1/4 mile we rode.


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## Jumpergal101

Chele11 said:


> I walked/trotted her on the road (under saddle) the other day (in between rain showers) and she did very well, considering I don't think she's ever ridden on the road (just trails). I'll definitely have to get her shoes tho bc she was pretty tender footed just walking & trotting the 1/4 mile we rode.


Are you walking on the road? 

It really is different from rider to rider and horses included, but there is an increased possibility for your horse to slip with shoes on. 

I've never really ridden on the road with my horses and their shoes but I have heard some horror stories regarding it from some of my riding buddies.


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## Magaidh

Chele11 said:


> I walked/trotted her on the road (under saddle) the other day (in between rain showers) and she did very well, considering I don't think she's ever ridden on the road (just trails). I'll definitely have to get her shoes tho bc she was pretty tender footed just walking & trotting the 1/4 mile we rode.


Get her some boots. Much better traction, and you can take them off at the end of the day and let her feet stay bare! 

Easyboot Bare | A Boot That Mimicks the Bare Hoof | EasyCare Inc.


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## DutchFeather

I ride and drive. I was a driver first and then a rider and I start all my horses with driving before I even consider riding them. Personal preference to suit my experience I suppose. A halflinger or rugged built QH can easily be a good little buggy horse. My quarab is a better driving pony than riding pony. 

You have experience as a rider/horse handler and a lot of your knowledge with overlay into driving. Driving is direct reining, and also voice orientated, but a lot of people use voice commands when riding anyway. 

A lot of the posters are seeming quite negative, but I think they are trying to be helpful in showing you how much time and expenses go into driving. But, with that said, it is a very enjoyable disciplin and can be quite beneficial to your horse. My quarab and I actually become closer after we've driven instead of after we've been riding. 

If it is something you want to do to increase your knowledge base and also have fun and enjoy it, not just to save money, then I think you should go for it. But of course approach it with the necessary (sp, I can never spell it right) caution. I think it's great that you are considering asking the Amish to help you. A lot of them have great methods and are great horseman, but as was said before, some can be quite harsh. So again, approach with caution. They may not accept money for helping you, but might instead ask you to help them on their farms in return. They are really generous. After you have some experience, they'd probably sell you a horse (use your horse sense, don't just buy a horse because they say that it's good, you know what to look for)... 

Just don't rush into it. With the right training and experience driving is really enjoyable. A nice buggy ride to town is relaxing. I would look for a horse that is already trained for carriage work and that is calm on roads, some motorists are well, *******s, when it comes to horses. Buying a used carriage and harness can also be a good thing, but inspect the equipment and maybe bring someone experienced to check it out with you.


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## xilikeggs0

Saddlebag said:


> My son put his girlfriend in our Easy Entry cart and took her for a ride as tho it were a rickshaw. He was surprised at light it was to pull even with her 160lbs in it.


I can pull a full-sized carriage with people in it, and I weigh 135 pounds.


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## eliduc

It doesn't seem to matter what forum you are on it seems there is always some rude person getting off on offering offensive criticism. You just have to filter it out. You have received a lot of good advice. If you are an accomplished rider you shouldn't have a problem learning to drive. Keep in mind though that driving is more dangerous than riding. The best driving horse is one that is calm, obedient and stops when you tell it to. You might look for one that is already well trained while you are working with your Haflinger. They do make great driving horses though. I have been driving my horse for two years and am just now desensitizing him to traffic. I tend to be overly cautious and a nut on safety. God protects fools and horse owners but not always foolish horse owners.


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## VelvetsAB

_I just want to ask how purchasing all this equipment will put you ahead, as it will cost many tanks of gas to purchase?_

_Why not purchase a small, fuel efficient car?_


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## kait18

i think this is a wonderful idea.. i have been thinking the same thing. having my twh cross learn to drive to go to the store.. i do have a fuel efficient car but would love the idea of having another thing to do with my guy.
i have been researching alot about costs its close to 5000 dollars for a good harness and a decent road safe carriage(i was looking at ones to fit 3-4 ppl) 
i am getting boots for my guys hooves as i don't like shoes and neither does he but i have done estimates for the idea of driving him to the store... after i bought all the equipment the first year would be a more of a loss then gain but the second year had given me twice the amount on savings... but my grocery store is a 6 minute drive with a huge hill. and he is already worked everyday so my feed cost wasn't affected when i estimated my costs..
but definitely get a good trainer. thats what i am looking at right now. good luck


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## zwarte

check out the American Driving Society. Lots of information to get you started there. 
Plus a guide to groups that will help you. 

American Driving Society


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## goodhors

Kait, does your TWH cross, gait under saddle?

My question is because gaited horses need to be pulling very LIGHT vehicles with only a small load behind. Unless you only plan to EVER drive your gaited horse on good roads, using a 4-passenger vehicle, with 3-4 people in it, could be overloading him.

When a gaited horse is overloaded, he starts really digging in, pushing off the hind end to keep his load moving. This MAY cause him to take up trotting and quit gaiting. TWH does NOT trot as a breed, you NEVER want them to trot, since it is much easier than gaiting.

We have seen several TWH's quit gaiting at all, after being driven with the larger carriages and bigger passenger loads, maybe driven in deeper, hard going, where they had to really pull to move the loads. These were aged, well gait established horses who took up trotting and refused to gait again.

So this is a warning for you, TWH are meant to be RIDDEN to enjoy their special gaits. Working them as driving horses may have unexpected results, so be aware of the possiblities. 

Same can happen with other Gaited breeds with no natural, true trot. Saddlebreds have a true trot, don't lose their gaits when driven.

I would hate to have you surprised with the gait issue, ruin your horse's gaiting for riding. The Breed rings use prepared surfaces and LIGHT vehicles, no work to pull about. For some reason folks NEVER mention problems when you start getting into things!! This gaiting issue in Driving is a bit specific, but one we have seen before.

I am sure if you want to pursue the driving, you can get a harness and carriage for lots less than $5000 that is not junk or dangerous to use. There are both new and antique vehicles around, they are NOT rare! You just need to get in contact with light horse driving folks. The ADS site above, has a list of Regional and local Driving Clubs you can contact for help and information.


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## eliduc

*$5000? Why?*

You might think about a good second hand wooden wheeled road cart. They are a lot safer than a four wheeled carriage to start with and don't tip over as easy. You can find them for about $800. You can get a high quality biothane harness for around $900 from CHimacum tack. Thats with a contoured deep vee breast collar and quick release tug loops. Jane is wonderful to work with. The harness is the same as Camptown and is guaranteed to fit. If a piece isn't right on the harness you can send it back no questions asked so there is no risk. You can always sell the cart when you are ready to move up to a four wheeled vehicle. I am thinking about making a one seat jog cart. I think it would be a blast and a half.


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## kait18

Kait, does your TWH cross, gait under saddle? yes but it has to be asked he will not do it willingly... he is twh/arabian(ppl think)/draft cross and prefers to trot over gait. he trots naturally. i have rarely ever seen him gait in his field on his own.. can count on one hand 3 in the last 5 years...

My question is because gaited horses need to be pulling very LIGHT vehicles with only a small load behind. Unless you only plan to EVER drive your gaited horse on good roads, using a 4-passenger vehicle, with 3-4 people in it, could be overloading him. 

3-4 ppl was a design on a cart. it had a bench (2 person) in the front and on the back had an additional 2 seats that converted into a storage area if packing groceries or small picnic. it was very light and i was having it custom built for my cross so it wouldn't be to heavy with 2 children in the back.. and thats why it was around 5000. 

When a gaited horse is overloaded, he starts really digging in, pushing off the hind end to keep his load moving. This MAY cause him to take up trotting and quit gaiting. TWH does NOT trot as a breed, you NEVER want them to trot, since it is much easier than gaiting. 

i don't think i can agree with twh not trotting... ever... i have seen lots of purebred twh who would naturally trot out in the fields and it never reflected there gait. but thats a debate all its own  . as for him i would not make him do the hill alone. the cart i was looking ot have custom made was going to be able to convert from single pull to team pull. and if i went with that option i would use my other horse who has similar strides to pull with him if we were to do the hill. 


So this is a warning for you, TWH are meant to be RIDDEN to enjoy their special gaits. Working them as driving horses may have unexpected results, so be aware of the possiblities. 
if he doesn't gait its ok... he rarely does anyway lol but i will keep it in consideration. thanks for the advice never new about some of the stuff you mentioned.


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