# Want Reg Papers But Owner Not Giving Them?



## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Well my first advice would be to contact a professional who knows the law. My personal advice would be do you really need the papers? And from your original post is the horse registered or not?

Where I'm at the only time papers come into play is when showing, so if your friend has no problems not having a registered horse and you have the bill of sale from your transaction then what's the problem? If he's not registered, and you have the bill of sale document then he's your horse legally (or your parents). 

If you must/want the papers, go through a lawyer. That's really the only way I can see you being able to get the papers if there are any. 

However the man might have sold you the horse WITHOUT papers, meaning that you cannot get them. 

So here are my questions because I'm a tad confused: 
1. Do you have a bill of sale from the transaction of the old owner to your parents?
2. Do you have a statement saying that you have paid in full for the animal and he is officially yours?
3. Are you sure he isn't stolen/sold under false pretenses. 

A professional can help you more but this is one of those times when you've got to decide if you really want a piece of paper or just move on.


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## AGraceful (Nov 16, 2014)

Incitatus32 said:


> Well my first advice would be to contact a professional who knows the law. My personal advice would be do you really need the papers? And from your original post is the horse registered or not?
> 
> Where I'm at the only time papers come into play is when showing, so if your friend has no problems not having a registered horse and you have the bill of sale from your transaction then what's the problem? If he's not registered, and you have the bill of sale document then he's your horse legally (or your parents).
> 
> ...


My friend will show him possibly,but not breed shows or anything. the reg papers,my parents think we need to have to own the horse. as for quests 1-3:

1. We dont have a bill of sale,only documents.
2.No we dont. he said we could have him for free. we were supposed to get reg papers, and bill of sale,it was documented on paper, after we paid for him,but we never did. He threw a fit and threatened us instead.
3. From what i was told, he was sold as a green broke horse,then left out in pasture for 3 years.(by old owner) I honestly know nothing about that.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Then your best bet would be to talk to a professional and see what can be done. I was just confused as in the earlier post it listed a payment plan.


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## AGraceful (Nov 16, 2014)

I will talk to my local horse rescue,as they had something similar happen too.(years ago though) But thanks.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Papers only denote ownership concerning the breed registry where the horse is registered. For legal purposes of defining true ownership, a bill of sale trumps registration papers.

If the horse is a gelding and your friend doesn't want to show in breed competitions, the registration papers don't mean anything. 

You need a bill of sale more than you need papers. What kind of 'documents' do you have?


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## AGraceful (Nov 16, 2014)

Speed Racer said:


> Papers only denote ownership concerning the breed registry where the horse is registered. For legal purposes of defining true ownership, a bill of sale trumps registration papers.
> 
> If the horse is a gelding and your friend doesn't want to show in breed competitions, the registration papers don't mean anything.
> 
> You need a bill of sale more than you need papers. What kind of 'documents' do you have?


Just emails stating what he has said. He has also said that he will send him to slaughter if we give him back. im getting my trainer and local rescue a call. I honestly have no clue what to do. But im not giving up without a fight.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Then don't give him back.

Emails are written documents, so as long as you have them stating he gave the horse to you there shouldn't be any issues with you keeping the animal.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

I would print off all of the emails you shared with this man and put them away in a folder somewhere, _if_ you ever need to pull them out as proof of ownership you have them but until then don't fuss about it. Registration papers are not important unless you're breeding or showing in breed shows, and it sounds like it's more hassle than it's worth.

Do you even know for sure that the registration papers exist? If your horse isn't registered then they probably don't and your pestering the old owner for them might have him backpedaling and getting defensive.


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## AGraceful (Nov 16, 2014)

alexischristina said:


> I would print off all of the emails you shared with this man and put them away in a folder somewhere, _if_ you ever need to pull them out as proof of ownership you have them but until then don't fuss about it. Registration papers are not important unless you're breeding or showing in breed shows, and it sounds like it's more hassle than it's worth.
> 
> Do you even know for sure that the registration papers exist? If your horse isn't registered then they probably don't and your pestering the old owner for them might have him backpedaling and getting defensive.


He is registered as i saw the papers.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Your parent's are misunderstanding the purpose and the use of registration papers. They can help prove ownership but are absolutely not necessary. Many horses are sold without papers, purebred or not.

" We have documents of the owner telling us that he's ours" 
You already have the sale contract (and hopefully cancelled checks) and an email from him stating basically the same thing. I'd stop contacting him and give the horse to your friend (with a contract!). This old guy probably doesn't want the hassle of dealing with this anymore.

Tell your parents that all of us experienced horse people have confirmed that registration papers are nice to have but are at necessary in horse sales.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

OP, what state are you located in? The only "paper" you need to denote ownership is a Brand Inspection--and that's only for certain states. 

Registration really has nothing to do with proof of ownership, and not having them shouldn't be an issue.


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## AGraceful (Nov 16, 2014)

Chasin Ponies said:


> Your parent's are misunderstanding the purpose and the use of registration papers. They can help prove ownership but are absolutely not necessary. Many horses are sold without papers, purebred or not.
> 
> " We have documents of the owner telling us that he's ours"
> You already have the sale contract (and hopefully cancelled checks) and an email from him stating basically the same thing. I'd stop contacting him and give the horse to your friend (with a contract!). This old guy probably doesn't want the hassle of dealing with this anymore.
> ...


Oh yes i know. I actually think that they mean a bill of sale -.- 

Also my mom deleted the eh mials from them. even the one stating he was given to us. That should i do know?


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## MyHorseTeddy (Nov 2, 2013)

how long ago did she delete them? look in your trash, they could be in there. if not, you can try to have someone try and dig them up, My friend got some old emails she needed dug up a while back.


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## AGraceful (Nov 16, 2014)

idk. Ill ask her.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Since she deleted the emails you're in a huge rut, especially because your original contract stated you'd pay $500 but you _didn't, _instead you got him for free... it may have been indicated that you could have him for free, but now that the emails are gone you have no proof.

It may or it may not work against you.

You said you want to give him to your friend? I would do just that and let her deal with registration papers, if it's something she wants to pursue.


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## AGraceful (Nov 16, 2014)

My moms worried he'll sue us...honestly i dont think he has the brains for that lol


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

AGraceful said:


> so... We dont have my horse's reg papers. I want to give him to my friend as a gift, but my parents say since we dont have his reg papers we cant. I know thats not true, because sonny isn't registered.



Is the horse registered or not? In another post you state you have seen the papers. In your OP you state he is not registered. 



> Parents are afraid old owner will sue us. I am having my parents sign a bill of sale and hand over ownership to me. We have paid over 5k for this horse(training feed etc.). We have documents of the owner telling us that he's ours.



So you have the documents or not? In another email you say all the emails were deleted? As someone mentioned, check your email "trash." If you use an online email service such as Google (gmail) messages are usually "archived" rather than deleted. Check the web mail interface for your email service. If you are on a Mac and have "Time Machine" activated, you can also "go back in time" to recover deleted files or emails.



> My friend's dad(he's also a cop) said he'd have to pay for expenses if he wanted him back.


Always remember - a cop is not a lawyer or judge. This is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. His suggestion is one possible outcome, but not the most likely given the information presented.



> His old owner is 70,and has brain damage. We have been threatened by him to get my horse taken away when we asked for his reg papers. In the same email that he said we could have him, he said that if he got him back he'd be sent for slaughter.


Brain damage is a problem. It makes any of his claims less credible. Anything in writing would trump whatever he says.

Remember to take the horse away, he needs to get a trailer, drive it to your place and actually take the horse. "Possession is 9/10ths of the law" and all that. You would pretty much have to let him take it.

The slaughter house claim has no bearing on this whatsoever. Ownership is based on legal facts. Not what someone intends to do with their property.



> We have a contract saying we'd pay $500 for him over the course of 12 months and if that didnt get paid,or it didnt work out,old owner would get the horse,and we'd get the money back. We do have documents saying we now own the horse. We don't know his reg name or #, like we know nothing of that sort.


As others have stated, breed registry papers are pretty much meaningless for ownership purposes. You write you have a contract. If you fulfilled the terms of that contract, the horse is yours. Done. If you have documents stating you own that horse, my guess is that you fulfilled the contract terms. Case closed.



> His old owner takes no interest in wanting the horse back, he never talks to us etc. he's just not interested.


That has no bearing on who owns the horse. If he loaned you the horse instead of giving/selling it, he would still own the horse no matter how much he contacted you.



> It was only when we asked for his reg papers. We've literally paid for everything fr this horse.


If you had to go to court, proof that you have paid for all maintenance of this horse would help prove your claim of ownership.



> As far as i know, the papers ARE NOT IN HIS NAME. Nor he DOES NOT HAVE A BILL OF SALE.
> We do have coggins showing us as owner but yea....The horse is registered as i saw the papers when we went out to first look at him.



It is not uncommon to have reg papers that are not in your name. Some people feel it is a bad idea to have a long list of owners. Many I know will keep a horse for six months to a year without changing over the registration. If the horse doesn't work out, they sell it and give over the papers showing on the previous owner's name.

Loggins doesn't prove ownership any more than reg papers. Both can be used to support an ownership claim, but a bill of sale is what proves you own the horse.



> If there anything that can be done to get the reg papers?
> 
> EDIT: He's in the ApCh


Sure - you can get a lawyer. If you can produce a bill of sale or written agreement stating that the previous owner is obligated to turn over the papers, you have a good chance of winning. Without a written agreement to that effect, your chances are much less. Win or lose, it is going to cost you money in legal fees.



Probably best to just let it go. You state that breed shows are not on the agenda. That and breeding are the only reasons to register. 

You state the previous owner does not maintain contact or show interest in the horse. How would he know if you gave the horse to a friend? 


One other thing to keep in mind... maybe your parents simply don't want you to give this horse to a friend. 



Discalaimer - I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. The above is personal opinion and should not be taken as legal advice.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

If you don't have a bill of sale I would not be pestering him. Leave it be and give the horse away. He could try to sue you, but I doubt it. How long have you had the horse? Even without a bill of sale if you've had the horse for years and paid its upkeep and this guy suddenly claims you took his horse - he is going to have a hard time getting it back.

Remember you're not entitled to registration papers. They are the property of the registered owner not a registered horse and even if they do exist he doesn't have to give them to you. You talk about fighting but fighting what? He doesn't want the horse back does he?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Ask again for the registration paper. If he tell you a story or is rude, tell him that he leaves you no alternative and that you will have to notify the registry and the Livestock Act and let their lawyers deal with it. Call his bluff.


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## AGraceful (Nov 16, 2014)

Saddlebag said:


> Ask again for the registration paper. If he tell you a story or is rude, tell him that he leaves you no alternative and that you will have to notify the registry and the Livestock Act and let their lawyers deal with it. Call his bluff.


ok ill ty that


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

The person does not have to give you registration papers. You can sue all you want, report him all you want, but you have no proof. You do not even have a bill of sale, A letter or note signed by him stating he gave you the horse. And if he did give you the horse, he does not have to give the papers. I can sell any registered horse with or without its papers. It depends on a how I sell it. As papered or as grade. 
You should just leave this alone and be happy you have the horse. 
I have one arab mare here that has papers, and if She ever left this property her papers would be mailed in as deceased, so no one could breed her and register a foal , simply because she is not fit to pass on any desirable traits. I was at one time going to let an old owner have her, but the person insisted on her papers , so the horse stayed here . I saw ads where some people were trying to sell some foals claiming my mare as the dam to same half arabs stating they were able to register them. even used my mares registered name in the ads, I called them and emailed them. told them that they were lying, I owned the mare, she had not been bred that year, the foals were in fact not hers, and i notified the registry that people were trying to use my mare as a dam to paper half bred arabs.


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## AGraceful (Nov 16, 2014)

Im not really worrying here lol it would be really nice to have them to track hos pedigree(i like doing stuff like that) butother then that...

My parents say that hes not legally ours because we dont have the reg papers and the old owner could sue us blah blah...im just gonna gave her sing the horse over to me lol


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

stevenson said:


> The person does not have to give you registration papers. You can sue all you want, report him all you want, but you have no proof. You do not even have a bill of sale, A letter or note signed by him stating he gave you the horse. And if he did give you the horse, he does not have to give the papers. I can sell any registered horse with or without its papers. It depends on a how I sell it. As papered or as grade.
> You should just leave this alone and be happy you have the horse.
> I have one arab mare here that has papers, and if She ever left this property her papers would be mailed in as deceased, so no one could breed her and register a foal , simply because she is not fit to pass on any desirable traits. I was at one time going to let an old owner have her, but the person insisted on her papers , so the horse stayed here . I saw ads where some people were trying to sell some foals claiming my mare as the dam to same half arabs stating they were able to register them. even used my mares registered name in the ads, I called them and emailed them. told them that they were lying, I owned the mare, she had not been bred that year, the foals were in fact not hers, and i notified the registry that people were trying to use my mare as a dam to paper half bred arabs.


At least in the APHA and AQHA, the rule books are very clear that the seller *MUST *provide the original certificate and signed transfer report to the buyer or association when there is a change of ownership of a registered horse.
If the buyer does not receive these, there is information on the web sites as to the process that the buyer must follow and the actions that the association will take. They describe a number of situations, but the bottom line is that unless the seller disputes the buyer's ownership, the association will process a transfer with or without the original certificate and with or without the seller's signature, and the buyer will get a certificate in their name.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Paint horse mares... that may be the rule, but if you do not have the horses registered name or number how do you report someone ? Pull hairs for DNA ? and if they did not send in stallion reports on the breeding there is no proof . The OP has no proof that the horse was registered.
The OP does NOT EVEN have a bill of sale. No proof .


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

stevenson said:


> Paint horse mares... that may be the rule, but if you do not have the horses registered name or number how do you report someone ? Pull hairs for DNA ? and if they did not send in stallion reports on the breeding there is no proof . The OP has no proof that the horse was registered.
> The OP does NOT EVEN have a bill of sale. No proof .


Specific to the OPs problem, I understand and agree. If the seller never even disclosed the registered name and/or number, and the buyer has no evidence of legal ownership, there is no recourse with the associations.

My post was a general, tangential comment that in the associations' view, the papers actually belong to horse, not the horse's owner, and that most folks don't usually think of the papers that way.


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