# how much can he really change???



## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

To keep it short . . .

some girl posted a picture of her family's horse, here:


I commented on the small feet, very upright pasterns and his downhill build

she told me that that he was a yearling in this photo and that with corrective shoeing he grew more hoof and now his 'angles line up'


so, can you really correct upright pasterns as sever as his?


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

smguidotti said:


> To keep it short . . .
> 
> some girl posted a picture of her family's horse, here:
> 
> ...


apparently, he measured 15.1 at he wither and 16H at the hip.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

He's obviously halter bred. They're all like that these days. His hind hooves are very upright, so maaaybe his hind Pasterns are angled the tiniest bit more. But other than that, it shouldn't have changed much, even on a growing horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xlionesss (Jan 30, 2012)

I reaaaally don't like this horse....


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

The answer to your question is no. Corrective trimming can help, but will never make his pasterns "normal", because genetically they are normal for him. He will always have upright pasterns, small feet, and will be slightly sickle hocked. He may level out with growth, though, although will likely always be a bit butt high...


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

THe girl who OWNED him now says he is two year-old but she conveniently cannot find any new pictures of him (or give me his registered name). 

sigh...

but anyway thanks for the input


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Conformation is conformation, unfortunately.
Baffles me why people breed for that.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Pretty sure she is not giving you permission to post her horse's photo on another website.

If you don't like halter, than don't do halter.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

He also looks very big for a yearling.... I know quarter horses mature faster but he looks 2.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Michelle Manlief Training Stables - Photo Gallery Scroll down the horse is pictured there...


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## ImpulsiveLucy (Oct 8, 2012)

Since he's still young, you can't bash his downhill build to much since he's still growing. And from their website, his pasterns aren't too bad! I've seen worse. And yes he is big for a now 2 year old, but I've seen yearlings at quarter horse congress bigger than this pretty boy! Some don't like him, but I'm a head hunter  Pretty head gets me every time! 

In the end he should level out since he's only 2! And then he should be a well balanced individual, wether he is the most appealing for some to look at or not. Conformation is the basis, and he is built very nicely! Hopefully his hip pops up! Then I'd take him in a heartbeat, he'd be the most balanced horse in my barn!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

ImpulsiveLucy said:


> Conformation is the basis, and he is built very nicely! Hopefully his hip pops up! Then I'd take him in a heartbeat, he'd be the most balanced horse in my barn!


I would take exception to that. A post legged horse with upright pasterns and tiny feet is NOT "built nicely". He may conform to an artificial and man made whimsical halter standard, but his conformation is unnatural and not conducive to soundness and athletic ability...


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## ImpulsiveLucy (Oct 8, 2012)

Faceman said:


> I would take exception to that. A post legged horse with upright pasterns and tiny feet is NOT "built nicely". He may conform to an artificial and man made whimsical halter standard, but his conformation is unnatural and not conducive to soundness and athletic ability...


Welcome to world of halter horses. It's a beauty pageant. They are not designed to perform, they are designed to look pretty. Don't like it, well that's your issue. This horses pasterns really aren't that bad compared to several horses you see in circuit halter classes. 

Overall, that horse is better balanced than most horses I see everyday.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

ImpulsiveLucy said:


> Welcome to world of halter horses. It's a beauty pageant. They are not designed to perform, they are designed to look pretty. Don't like it, well that's your issue. This horses pasterns really aren't that bad compared to several horses you see in circuit halter classes.
> 
> Overall, that horse is better balanced than most horses I see everyday.


Yeah, welcome to the world of halter horses...a world that promotes the breeding of unsound horses. "They are not designed to perform"...thank you for making my point. 

Breeding a conformationally unsound animal to meet the whimsical and distorted aesthetic desires of man is, quite frankly, sick...makes no difference if it is a horse, a dog, or any other non food animal.

A halter horse *should* be an ideal representation of the breed - not some grotesque characature than can barely waddle into the ring on tiptoes. As usual, we have taken things to such an extreme we are producing unnatural physiological specimens, and are breeding away from the form and function nature has taken millions of years to develop. Woohoo - let's pat ourselves on the back...


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

oh vair oh said:


> Pretty sure she is not giving you permission to post her horse's photo on another website.
> 
> If you don't like halter, than don't do halter.


What does asking questions about a horse's confo have to do with not liking "halter"? (which I NEVER said)

I didn't take the photo from the ranch website, I found it on a random public blogging site: Kiss My Apps

MY BAD, I FORGOT TO POST THE IMAGE SOURCE


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ImpulsiveLucy said:


> Welcome to world of halter horses. It's a beauty pageant. *They are not designed to perform, they are designed to look pretty.* Don't like it, well that's your issue.


That should be everyone's issue, the bolded is just plain scary:shock: Next we will be wheeling them into the ring on a handcart, because they can't perform the basic of walking from one place to another


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

smguidotti said:


> What does asking questions about a horse's confo have to do with not liking "halter"? (which I NEVER said)


Yup, and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with halter as a discipline or breeding halter horses. But there is a line that shouldn't be crossed, and that line is breeding to the extent of destroying form and function. It is often done with halter horses, and it is done with racing Throughbreds. Adequate bone, hooves, and proper conformation for soundness should always be a prime objective - they shouldn't be sacrificed for arbitrary aesthetics or for speed. It is just fine to breed for aesthetics, speed, or whatever, but it should be within the confines of soundness...


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

ImpulsiveLucy said:


> Welcome to world of halter horses. I*t's a beauty pageant. They are not designed to perform, they are designed to look pretty.* Don't like it, well that's your issue. This horses pasterns really aren't that bad compared to several horses you see in circuit halter classes.
> 
> Overall, that horse is better balanced than most horses I see everyday.


HOLY CRAP! THAT IS HORRIBLE!

Why would people do that to an animal? Intentionally breeding in traits that just flat are detrimental, just for the sake of "pretty"? Thats **** near as bad as foot binding in my mind...but I guess the breeders don't care...it's only an animal after all... ='(


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> That should be everyone's issue, the bolded is just plain scary:shock: Next we will be wheeling them into the ring on a handcart, because they can't perform the basic of walking from one place to another


 
But, they'll look really pretty , sitting on the hand cart. Really pretty.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

demonwolfmoon said:


> HOLY CRAP! THAT IS HORRIBLE!
> 
> Why would people do that to an animal? Intentionally breeding in traits that just flat are detrimental, just for the sake of "pretty"? Thats **** near as bad as foot binding in my mind...but I guess the breeders don't care...it's only an animal after all... ='(


I liked that, but wanted to have a don't like, as in I totally agree with what you are saying but it's a horrible thing to say!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> But, they'll look really pretty , sitting on the hand cart. Really pretty.


:rofl::shock::twisted:

So many emotions, so little time


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I agree with Faceman and the others. Breeding for pretty does no horse or the breed they belong to any good.
Hopefully these new "ranch" classes will become popular and profitable.
Those small feet scare me and IMO will definetly cause soundness problems in this horses future..
No hoof no horse. Shalom


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Just like in any discipline, there are extremes. Heck, I took Henny to a halter class when he was 5 months old. He got last in every class, but that's fine with me. The other horses were long yearlings and they were huge. I was just there to get Henny some show experience. Boy did he get some LOL. I'll definitely be taking him back this year(secretly it's mostly for the costume contest :wink 

There is definitely something wrong though when a halter horse is advertised as "He/She can ride!" The fact that that's on the ad shows what the norm is nowadays.


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## ImpulsiveLucy (Oct 8, 2012)

Faceman said:


> Yeah, welcome to the world of halter horses...a world that promotes the breeding of unsound horses. "They are not designed to perform"...thank you for making my point.
> 
> Breeding a conformationally unsound animal to meet the whimsical and distorted aesthetic desires of man is, quite frankly, sick...makes no difference if it is a horse, a dog, or any other non food animal.
> 
> A halter horse *should* be an ideal representation of the breed - not some grotesque characature than can barely waddle into the ring on tiptoes. As usual, we have taken things to such an extreme we are producing unnatural physiological specimens, and are breeding away from the form and function nature has taken millions of years to develop. Woohoo - let's pat ourselves on the back...


Yes, and this horse is a HALTER horse! If you guys don't like it, so what? Obviously someone does- like me. And as the farms website said, he got three 1sts at the Freedom Classic Futurity. And did well at Nationals and Worlds. As well as multiple Grand and Reserve Championships. Am I missing something here?


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

ImpulsiveLucy said:


> Yes, and this horse is a HALTER horse! If you guys don't like it, so what? Obviously someone does- like me. And as the farms website said, he got three 1sts at the Freedom Classic Futurity. And did well at Nationals and Worlds. As well as multiple Grand and Reserve Championships. *Am I missing something here?*


Yeah. A sense of respect for the health and welfare of the animals. JMO, of course.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I was given a mare with very small feet. In hopes that she would improve with care since her owner could not afford to have it done. She kept having soundness issues and was in pain. I sent this mare to a vet that specializes in hoof issues. He suggested that the mare be put down. she was. the mare was only 7 years old and was lame because she was broke to ride and ridden .that horse will have limited use outside the show ring. By the age of 10 will probably have been passed as each owner when they are ready for a more advanced horse.
Breeding for unsoundness just for a pretty horse is unethical. Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

ImpulsiveLucy said:


> Yes, and this horse is a HALTER horse! If you guys don't like it, so what? Obviously someone does- like me. And as the farms website said, he got three 1sts at the Freedom Classic Futurity. And did well at Nationals and Worlds. As well as multiple Grand and Reserve Championships. Am I missing something here?


As I said, there is nothing wrong with halter or halter horses...as long as they are not purposely bred with undesireable traits.

Money, trophies, or ribbons are NEVER justification for breeding unsound animals...not yesterday, not today, not tomorrow. That is avarice, and avarice is exactly the attitude that moved us from nicely bred halter horses to the characatures we see today, and what has produced racing Thoroughbreds that have to be carefully nursed through their first 3 years and then retired to stud due to their inadequate bone and hooves, or sold as OTTBs to people willing to take the risk on their soundness. A "win at all cost" attitude is unhealthy to begin with, but it is particularly bad if it fosters irresponsible breeding.

It is possible to have responsibly bred halter horses just as it is possible to have responsibly bred racing TBs. There is no reason to do away with either, but it is, IMO, both irresponsible and cruel to purposely breed such animals as we see being bred today...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I guess I just don't understand how someone can look at a horse like this (granted, even he's not perfect, but...)










And say "Nope, that's not _pretty_ enough", lets breed something like this....


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## ImpulsiveLucy (Oct 8, 2012)

Faceman said:


> As I said, there is nothing wrong with halter or halter horses...as long as they are not purposely bred with undesireable traits.
> 
> Money, trophies, or ribbons are NEVER justification for breeding unsound animals...not yesterday, not today, not tomorrow. That is avarice, and avarice is exactly the attitude that moved us from nicely bred halter horses to the characatures we see today, and what has produced racing Thoroughbreds that have to be carefully nursed through their first 3 years and then retired to stud due to their inadequate bone and hooves, or sold as OTTBs to people willing to take the risk on their soundness. A "win at all cost" attitude is unhealthy to begin with, but it is particularly bad if it fosters irresponsible breeding.
> 
> It is possible to have responsibly bred halter horses just as it is possible to have responsibly bred racing TBs. There is no reason to do away with either, but it is, IMO, both irresponsible and cruel to purposely breed such animals as we see being bred today...


Every horse has an "undesirable trait". There are no perfect horses! I don't believe I ever said that irresponsible breeding was ever right. Nor is breeding just to win a pretty ribbon, right. The horse posted had a few minor leg errors. But yet it's right to breed a horse that is thick necked and mutton-withered? I'd rather see a horse built like the bay smrobs posted as opposed the thick-necked and mutton-withered one she posted above. The bay pretty much is the ideal stock horse- though most aren't quite as muscled. 
We each have our opinions, I like my horses big like halter horses- though all of mine can function and are very sound. You might not like that type of horse, but there are others who do. 

I'm trying to word this right.. Not all halter horses are the "bodybuilder" type, where they are so big they have a hard time walking and are on steroids- those I strongly despise. I know of many halter horses who are VERY big, but still are sound nice animals that are ridden and worked. Just because a horse is massive does not mean it is unridable. Same with the legs, many horses are straighter through the pasterns which isn't good for the hoof (Makes the ride very uncomfortable too!) but they still work and last. 

I am sorry for not properly expressing myself on this post. But I believe that the horse posted is a very nice animal, which I will not apologize for.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

So many of the halter horses that are winning in the ring remind me of those belgian blue cattle...


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No the bay is *not* the ideal stock horse! His legs are thin and fine boned, his conformation is not conducive to a using horse, which is what an ideal stock horse is. If you honestly beleive that halter horses are the be all and end all of stock horse conformation...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The bay is not built for soundness. His legs are twigs compared to his body, his joints are all very steep and will take impact very poorly. Riding him must be like riding a jackhammer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ImpulsiveLucy said:


> The bay pretty much is the ideal stock horse- though most aren't quite as muscled.


As long as you don't want to actually _work_ stock or anything, maybe to look "pretty" in front of stock (depending on your definition of pretty that is)


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## ImpulsiveLucy (Oct 8, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> As long as you don't want to actually _work_ stock or anything, maybe to look "pretty" in front of stock (depending on your definition of pretty that is)


I picture working stock (reining, cutting, ranch) differently. Just like I picture a hunter differently. Each have the same bone build, different muscling. 
I like my reiners sorter necked, much less bulk muscle, and "big boned". I guess thats how we could put it bonewise!
I like all of mine to have substantial bone, which the bay does lack- look I'm going back on myself!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

ImpulsiveLucy said:


> Every horse has an "undesirable trait". There are no perfect horses! I don't believe I ever said that irresponsible breeding was ever right. Nor is breeding just to win a pretty ribbon, right. The horse posted had a few minor leg errors. But yet it's right to breed a horse that is thick necked and mutton-withered? I'd rather see a horse built like the bay smrobs posted as opposed the thick-necked and mutton-withered one she posted above. The bay pretty much is the ideal stock horse- though most aren't quite as muscled.


Have you ever heard the phrase "No leg, no horse"? That means that a horse is only as good as the legs they are standing on. So, I can take a horse with other faults and they are acceptable to me (maybe not for breeding, but for using) so long as they've got good legs.

As I said, the chestnut isn't perfect (his name is Gunner), but he is one of the top reining sires in the country...
McQuay Stables: Colonels Smoking Gun (Gunner)

Whereas, the bay that you liked, who's name is PRL My Te Cheerful, I can't find anything that he did beyond halter.

IMHO, pretty is as pretty does. If you want a horse that isn't good for anything beyond plodding around in an arena, then that's fine, but some of us want horses who are physically capable of doing a reining pattern, or cutting a cow, or being roped off of, or even being an effective trail partner...things that your typical "halter horse" just can't do.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Anyone that says Gunner is undesirable needs to look at his accomplishments and that of his offspring.
Now if you want a stud to fix the flaws your mare has {your other thread}. I would pick Gunner if you wanted a reining prospect. Shalom


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

No horse, regardless of intended use (whether it be halter, reining, hunters, or just dinking around on trails on the weekend), should be light on bone. Halter horses, as a general rule, are bred light on bone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Ya'll, this argument could go on for ages. The AQHA Convention is March 8-11 in Houston if you want to be a part of the open forum on halter horses.

But, give me a break with this. Let people who do halter, do halter. If you don't want a horse that looks like that, than don't breed one, and don't buy one. If you want to make a difference in the halter world, go find a horse that floats your conformational boat, fit it yourself, show it, and hope it catches on.

Personally, I don't really care for halter horses at all. I also don't care for thoroughbreds and warmbloods and whatever other bloods and breds you have, because I don't like a horse with a high neck, thin as a rail, and lots of knee action. Those types of horses are about as ugly and goofy to me as halter horses are to you. But I don't plan on owning, showing, or breeding those types of horses, so me saying that I think they are ugly and useless is redundant and not getting anything accomplished, haha. I could probably go to a OTTB sale and pick out more horses with long backs, uphill butts, and long pasterns than anywhere else.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> No horse, regardless of intended use (whether it be halter, reining, hunters, or just dinking around on trails on the weekend), should be light on bone. Halter horses, as a general rule, are bred light on bone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correctamundo, with the exception of Arabs, that have denser bone than other breeds and generally have finer (although not "lighter") bone.

It's sort of funny - back in the days when horses were actually used for work, the first things people looked at when evaluating a horse were the legs - hooves, joints, and bone. Today it's necks, "tail set", shoulders, and (shudder) color....and ironically we have horses all over the place today hobbling around, rehabbing from injuries, and being put down from bad hooves, legs, and joints. Must be a coincidence, huh?...:rofl:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> I also don't care for thoroughbreds and warmbloods and whatever other bloods and breds you have, because I don't like a horse with a* high neck, thin as a rail*, and lots of knee action. Those types of horses are about as ugly and goofy to me as halter horses are to you. But I don't plan on owning, showing, or breeding those types of horses, so me saying that I think they are ugly and useless is redundant and not getting anything accomplished, haha. I could probably go to a OTTB sale and pick out more horses with long backs, uphill butts, and long pasterns than anywhere else.


LOL, not my idea of a warm blood!

Thing is, you may not care for them, and that is fine, we all like different things, but those sorts of breeds are at least bred to be used, those who aren't pretty enough or talented enough for the ring can go on and lead great useful lives for Mrs Average rider, like me.

A horse bred solely to look pretty and not to stay sound or be ridden has no back up career, and that is very very sad.


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

Shropshirerosie wanders in, reads the thread :shock:, and walks out again shaking her head at more crazy breeding.


:think:

Actually, no, I'll come back in to say this.

I'd read the phrase 'halter classes' but didn't actually know what it was until I read this thread. I just did not know that there is another discipline out there that encourages looks at the detriment of welfare. It's reminds me of the scandal within the British Kennel club a couple of years ago when a television exposé of unhealthy 'award winning' dogs led to radical overhaul of some breeds standards.

Yes, there have been many many examples of breeding to produce one characteristic at the expense of overall health - heavy draught horses are a good example of this where the ability to pull a plough well came at the expense of ground-covering limbs and lean athleticism - but to discover that there's a whole other world out there that promotes horses _not bred to perform_ astonishes me.

But clearly this debate is one that has gone around HF and back again and I'm just joining very late in the day, so I'll back out now and leave it with those more informed than me.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

OVO, I know this is one of the biggest things that we disagree on.

Just because I don't show in halter or raise halter horses doesn't negate my opinion on their more than questionable breeding practices. When people are breeding horses who are prone to unsoundness for the sake of "pretty", then that is something important to everyone who cares about horses and is worth speaking out against.

IMHO, it's no different than speaking out against every backyard krazy kolor breeder in the country who are breeding horses that are completely useless for anything practical.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

oh vair oh said:


> Ya'll, this argument could go on for ages. The AQHA Convention is March 8-11 in Houston if you want to be a part of the open forum on halter horses.
> 
> *But, give me a break with this. Let people who do halter, do halter. If you don't want a horse that looks like that, than don't breed one, and don't buy one. If you want to make a difference in the halter world, go find a horse that floats your conformational boat, fit it yourself, show it, and hope it catches on.*


Ok I'll bite. I don't like the way that many pure bred dogs are bred, as in, deeply inbred with traits that are extreme enough to cause genetic disorder and shortened life. 

I'm not going to buy one of those dogs, backyard breeder or otherwise.

*But to turn my head and pretend it doesn't make me sick? *T*o not try to educate people to make better choices?* THAT I can't do. I do believe that we, by taking responsibility for the evolution of the animal and it's general morphology, are also responsible for the PAIN AND SUFFERING WE INFLICT.

And I know I'm in the minority of the general population. How many people does it even matter to that certain dogs almost consistently need a C-section to give birth, or any other number of ills that has befallen them? They just want a qyooot widdle bulldog puppy!!!! And look, Joe Schmoe is selling them on craigslist for half of what you can get at the (reputable) breeder! 

*sigh*

I honestly think that some people don't really link our breeding choices to the eventual suffering of the animal. They just don't think about it. And if I can say something and decrease the DEMAND for those types of animal (no specifics intended), then I helped.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Correctamundo, with the exception of Arabs, that have denser bone than other breeds and generally have finer (although not "lighter") bone.


I completely agree. Although, if you ask Arabs (the horses themselves, not their owners), they aren't horses, they're gods. ;-) :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I completely agree. Although, if you ask Arabs (the horses themselves, not their owners), they aren't horses, they're gods. ;-) :lol:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or princesses, Emmy is a princess


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Or princesses, Emmy is a princess


Well, of course!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I completely agree. Although, if you ask Arabs (the horses themselves, not their owners), they aren't horses, they're gods. ;-) :lol:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True...Arabs are very cat-like in that respect...


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> if you ask Arabs (the horses themselves, not their owners), they aren't horses, they're gods


mine is more down to earth, she's the Queen.:lol:

I agree with all those who are opposed to breeding at the detriment of the animal. When the animals are in crazy amounts of pain, incapable of even leading a comfortable life as a pasture puff, never mind being useful, all because people have made them that way, something is very wrong.

and I'm sorry, but choosing a horse with a draft sized body, but the legs and head size of a small arabian over a money winning reining stud, who can actually WORK??? They have bred these halter horses to the point they look like Frankensteins monster for goodness sake.

"If we just chop the head and legs off this pony and attach them to the body of this Percheron, we have the ideal stock horse!!"


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

ImpulsiveLucy said:


> Yes, and this horse is a HALTER horse! If you guys don't like it, so what? Obviously someone does- like me. And as the farms website said, he got three 1sts at the Freedom Classic Futurity. And did well at Nationals and Worlds. As well as multiple Grand and Reserve Championships. Am I missing something here?


For me personally, I can't say "so, what" because many people who look at these conformational catastrophes of a horse think that _this_ is what a _real_ working horse looks like. These breeders create this way over-romanticized illusion of what an AQHA/APHA/whatever is supposed to be. I have met people like this and let me tell you, it takes one to know one! 

In addition, many of the people who produce these horse's (in my opinion) are *fortunate* enough to be able to have the opportunity to live my (and probably many others on here) dream of breeding dream horses but they take it for granted by producing horse's with built-in obsolescence -- AND THEY KNOW IT. 

This is why it is NOT okay -- It's UNETHICAL. 

might as well start selling these piece o' crap horses at walmart . . .


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