# spooking- how do you deal with it



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I ride a horse that was beaten with PVC pipes (trotting poles), so now he's afraid of arena equipment. Part of what I do with him is to go to the arena to get him to "walk" over said poles. Hasn't happened yet. In the beginning, he would approach, jump big over it, and canter off as fast as he could. I had a few close calls, usually losing a stirrup in the turn. My instructor told me to sit back (not lean back, sit on your back pockets), keep my legs long, and grip the saddle with my thighs. To slow him down, don't fight, but use half halts. Let him run a step or two, start talking to him, then gently use the reins to bring him down. In the end, I just got used to it...I mean, if I wanted to desensitize this horse, I had to intentionally make him "spook" several times a lesson. Now we've met halfway: I'm less anxious about a spook, he at least trots away from the pole (still doesn't walk over one).


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

You'll got a lot of advice. Some of it may be contradictory. For myself, I'd want to know a lot more about the horse and also you. How long you've owned the horse, how much time you spend with the horse, how the horse is kept, feed, and so forth. Is he only ridden in school and is there an instructor? How much experience the horse has had.

The more details you give about the situation, the less contradictory the various responses are likely to be.

The first comment I'd make is that although it's difficult to not use the reins to stay on the horse, especially for a beginner, when bitted pulling on the reins hard can cause pain to the horse which under panic fear will cause the horse's fear and attempts to escape even greater. I'll also mention that a horse's brain actually shuts down in most areas during panic attacks. Lastly I'll add that a horse can read you so well as it seems they can actually read your brain, which of course they can't, but they are acutely aware of your emotional status and any intents you have.


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## ducky1234 (May 2, 2017)

You have at least two separate things going on. You have a horse that spooks. "Despooking" should be the second thing to worry about. Horses spook. It's why they have survived so many millions of years. People may brag about their bomb-proof horse, but rest assured that this bomb-proof horse spooked at first just like the rest of them.

You need to learn how to deal with it. A horse that "charges off" can not be tolerated. I assume you can stop the horse dead in his tracks at all gaits 100% of the time when he isn't spooked. If you have trouble stopping in normal circumstances you have no hope when your horse's brain becomes disengaged from you.

Don't let the horse charge off. Turn the horse towards the spook. Use as much pressure as you need (and it may be a lot of pressure) to keep him pointed at the scary object. If the horse wants to back away, that's OK. But if he is backing you need to make sure it's as straight back as you can.

As for despooking, I would start by flagging out the horse. Plenty of videos on youtube to show you what to do. You don't need some expensive flag setup. Tie a plastic supermarket bag to the end of a crop. (I have an old broken-tipped fishing pole with a bag tied thru the guide.) Once he is flagged, umbrellas and tarps are also good props to add to your despooking training.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

horsekaren said:


> My biggest struggle is being out of control, I hate it! it scares me and knocks my confidence every time.
> 
> I know I need to be confident for him and push him on, stay on him and help he realize everything is ok.... but for the moment I cant seem to do anything


You poor thing -- you have given a very colorful description of the vicious circle of spooky horses. You get nervous, the horse gets nervous, that makes you more nervous -- and if it goes far enough you get to the place where you're afraid to get on. At least that's where I was.

My big guy is very spooky. He was just born that way. He spooks in the pasture at things my little guy doesn't notice. He went through a fence one night just because a neighbor a quarter of a mile away turned on his Christmas lights. (I blame the thoroughbred in him)

The first major change for me was doing some ground work and getting him to move his hips over RIGHT NOW if I asked for it. That little exercise altered his behavior after only a few minutes. He walked calmly past things that spooked him before after the very first session.



horsekaren said:


> What do you do when a horse spooks? how to you stop them from charging off?


I don't know what other people do, but what absolutely works for me every time is the one-rein stop. You have to teach it to your horse and practice it, but it creates an emergency brake that works like nothing else. I have survived two major spooks that would have been really ugly wrecks, and a lot of little ones, because when I gather one rein and pull his head around we aren't going anywhere. It works just as well with a rope halter as it does with a snaffle bit.

The great thing is the confidence that comes from knowing you can stop lets you relax, which lets your horse relax, which eliminates all the idiot spooks and just leaves you with the the ones that make sense, like all the horses next to you suddenly going nuts.

Good luck and ride safe.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'd suggest riding another horse for the time being. Not saying never to ride this horse again but as you see right now it's a self perpetuating cycle.

You need to work on yourself and controlling your (instinctual) reaction and fears then also calming yourself back down when something scary happens. Also how to handle a spooking horse. If a horse jumps forward with me I'll pull one rein and turn in a circle.

The horse needs to be ridden by someone more experienced. He needs some confidence or he is NOT a novice ride no matter how well trained or quiet he is. Also, his reaction to being "scared" (supposedly) is to charge off, not acceptable, especially in a beginners horse. I don't get mad when a horse is actually afraid, they are horses after all, but he doesn't need to react like that.

Once you're both in a better place try it together again.

Is this your own horse? I understand not being able to throw him away completely but do try riding different horses and having some more confident riders ride him. Also take some lessons with him, I can't recommend it enough.

Also read this: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/how-we-train-fearless-trail-horse-99776/


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## horsekaren (Mar 8, 2017)

Hondo - Thanks for your probingquestions, I will be as honest as I can- 


I have ridden badly for about 10years as a child/teen (walk, trot, canter, jump, hack but never reallytaught correctly in my many hours of poor riding school lessons). I took tenyears off. I then loaned a one in a million happy hacker for 2 years... icannot explain how safe this horse was... i doubt i learned anything as she wasjust so easy and forgiving. 


I have owned my horse for comingup to 4 months. He is 8 years old and was broken to ride 1.6 years ago, beforethat he was a driving horse.


He is incredibly sweet and easyto ride but he is very sensitive to me and my feelings, I set him off because Idon’t trust him/ know him and honestly I am scared I am going to get hurt.


At present i do not have an instructor, i have a good friend who has been helping me but i think her patience is wearing thin... i fully understand i need a good instructor  


He is a 16HH Cob.


At present he is turned out forat least 12 hours a day with company. 


He has since transitioned from ahay only diet to hay/ grass and high fibre (one handful as I haveintroduced some magnesium into his diet as the spring grass did make him worse)


I have recently had his teeth,saddle, hoofs and he not long ago had a vetting when I purchased him – all ok. 





I am a very unconfident, anxiousperson in life in general but I absolutely adore horse and had the most amazingtime loaning my last horse… so much so I decided I wanted my own. I take a longtime to trust myself and other (including the horse) 


I panic and get scared if I am onmy own with him; I worry about him all the time and at the moment the thoughtof getting on him makes me feel so anxious I start to shake. 





All that being said I feel likethis in many aspects of life so it is a personality flaw not just a horseriding flaw. 


All the above being said I am atno point where I would consider giving up and selling him, I believe if I canovercome this I will be a better person/ owner /rider. 


Everyone who has met this horseloves him, he is so sweet, stands to be groomed, he is bottom of the heard andnon aggressive to people and horse, and he is so clever willing to please(introverted). We did join up for the first time having owned him for 4 daysand within 5 mins he was with me following me and listening to my every command;we tried free schooling recently within 2 mins he was following me over jumpsround the school.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

If he was a good driving horse (not a driving school dropout) he may feel insecure without his shafts. Horses learn to lean on whatever they learn to feel secure (why we are constantly working on getting a horses straight, because they line their eye, shoulder, and hip on the wall.....).

Rig up a ground driving set up with a couple of longe lines run through the stirrups(use a hay string run under his belly to tie them together), and ground drive him around the school. Make circles by the scary objects, an be sure to let him see with both eyes! Good luck!!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

horsekaren said:


> At present he is turned out for
> at least 12 hours a day with company.




What's life like the other 12 hours? Does he have free choice hay? If not how many meals? And again, how much time per week are you able to spend with him? Does he spook when being led?

I own one spooky horse and am caring for two other spooky horses. They happen to be the most spooky out of a herd of 17. I have them in a 60 acre field by themselves.

With my first get off, bareback, with the horse I own, I developed a fear each time he startled a little which did make things worse. I was able to get my confidence back which made a big difference. Also paying closer attention to him and keeping him mentally in contact with me did wonders, advice that I recieved from this forum.

I believe it's important to try to subdue any anger you may feel at the horse for becoming fearful, never punish for fear, and never become a source of fear to the horse.

My horse was at the bottom of the rung of adult horses as is often the case for a fearful horse. He will always be somewhat spooky. It's in the genetics and the spookier a horse is, the better survival he would have in the wild.

Having confidence that I can ride out the spooks he does make has been the huge thing that has helped. My fear is gone and I can simply use both reins for a stop. I use a crossunder bitless. But I do have to be ready as his bolts when they do occur, although short lived, are very fast and violent.

Physical fitness is important. And developing a solid seat. Knowing and paying close attention to the horse at ALL times is very important.

I am, again, very curious how he does around something typically scary when being led.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

We’ve got one who is a spooker/bolter, my novice husband rides him. Like @Joel Reiter mentioned, the “one rein stop” is invaluable, especially for the novice or less confident rider.

I’d like to add though, that timing of when to initiate it on your part is crucial. The moment you feel the horse tense, that head needs to be brought around and, we add the disengagement of the hip for good measure. 

It almost needs to be automatic on both of your parts for it to be effective and again, as Joel mentioned, that means practice, practice, practice, practice and of course, doing the accompanying groundwork needed to lay the foundation for it in the saddle. 

The one rein stop helps to get the horse re-focused on the rider and in most cases they forget what it was they were spooking at. Refocusing on the rider is THE key. That can also be done using other methods but, the nice thing with ORS, if you can train it right, you have control back almost immediately and don’t have to put yourself through the momentary trauma of feeling out of control on a bolting horse.

Again, practice, practice, practice.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> The one rein stop helps to get the horse re-focused on the rider and in most cases they forget what it was they were spooking at.


Exactly! It's magical. The proverbial reset switch.



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> The nice thing with ORS, if you can train it right, you have control back almost immediately and don’t have to put yourself through the momentary trauma of feeling out of control on a bolting horse.


Which lets you relax, which lets the horse relax, which means less spooks, which lets you relax......


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@Reiningcatsanddogs I know this is good advice from you. And many others as well.

But address this, for the OP and for me as well.

The horse sees some campers and vehicles in the distance in HIS field that were not there before. He is expressing clear concern for what he is seeing as we return from a ride. It is windy to boot. He is not near spooking but is clearly worried. I am aware of the situation and am not worried about him loosing it.

Then a huge gust of wind comes causing a huge leafed branch above us to wave.

Hondo looses it leaping forward and sideways. I remain in the middle of the saddle, give verbal cue and a two rein stop. It is over within 25 feet.

That was around two weeks ago and my left hip and lower lat on the left side is still somewhat sore. That is how sudden and violent his bolt was. I apparently just over strained my left side just holding on plus possibly some whiplash in my lower back. I was leaning forward just in case, and in case happened with that gust of wind.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Hondo said:


> @Reiningcatsanddogs I know this is good advice from you. And many others as well.
> 
> But address this, for the OP and for me as well.
> 
> ...


 @Hondo, it comes down to individual differences in the horse and the rider as well. Not every rider reads/feels an oncoming spook with equal accuracy. Not every horse has the same signals before a spook; some telegraph it, some don't. MOST though will give the average rider (with training) enough time to read and react with a ORS. 

Because of individual differences, I mentioned that there are other ways of dealing with it; the important part is finding a way to get the horse's mind back on the rider however you can best do that, for the rider's sake as quickly as possible, which the ORS accomplishes.


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## Midwest Rider (May 5, 2017)

ByI had a spookaholic . Much better now that he's older though . As a fearful beginner type rider here's what I did . First got a trainer to ride him and give me lessons . Lol he was great with her and the lessons gave me some confidence . Then I got a new saddle - a Aussie that fit him with a 5Star pad . Yes he spooked a lot ... A few years ago on a epic spookathon we counted over twenty full whirl around type spooks (deer season and woods were full of beded down deer that jumped out right in front of us) . I despite my poor skills was able to sit all of them due to the solid seat the saddle gave me . He would spook hard , I ignored it(easy since I didn't have to get back on lol) and we just rode on . By the end of the ride he still spooked but they were more of a jump up and much easier to ride out . If he started to run off -one rein stop is awesome . I took a lot of ibuprofen the next day !! Present day he is a wonderful trail ride . He's always going to be a " OMG , that's going to eat me " type guy . New things are all to be feared but I am better at helping him control his reactions now that I don't fear being thrown as much .
Last fall we tried bicycles again ( one of his biggest fears) . Nope , no way . The more we rode the more wound up he got - tried my friend holding his halter - getting in front , etc . Never smacked or yelled - just tried to keep things calm . Nothing worked so we turned back as soon as we could when no bicycles were around so it was not " giving in " to his fear but be for he got terrified . Bicyclists were BTW mostly great some even stopped to let him smell and see that they were human . Next we plan to walk and have them give treats Lololol - yes treats - he is very food motivated and sometimes it makes him forget the monsters .
Just want to add that really it was decision to work with a good trail ride trainer that was the thing that worked . She looked at the situation and then helped me fix my problems .


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

A lot of people have mentioned the one-rein stop, which is great. My Haflinger used to be very nervous about riding, not exactly spooky, just nervous and very forward. What helped him was doing lots of spirals, circles and changes of direction, especially at the beginning of a ride until he settled down. It's a lot harder for you to lose control and have the horse take off when they are bent. When they are going in a straight line, it's fairly easy for them to bolt on you.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I also second the one-rein stop. I've used it a few times with Redz, gets him right back on track.
However, you also need to work on your seat with him- just breathe (I know it's easier said than done) and try to 'blob' it, if that makes sense.
Relax your whole body, if you tense up he will sense that & it will make it 10x worse. 
Try doing some groundwork with him & some desensitizing. Let him walk up to things, sniff them, etc. to get used to them.
You may also be making him anxious because you are also anxious. Pulling on the reins is not going to make it easier- yes, the one-rein stop can work if done correctly and if your horse is trained to listen to the cue. 

Remember, he needs confidence just like you do. I think groundwork will make him feel more confident, then just keep working on having a relaxed seat. Horses do feel how 'we' feel. If we are nervous, they will be nervous, etc. When he is spooking, try your best to just stay calm, reassure him and relax your seat. Keep practicing!  I second doing some circle work with him too.

Good luck!


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Additionally to the excellent advice above, I found that laughing at them helps. I think it does two things: turns your attitude around and surprises them and tells them there is nothing to be afraid of. It will not prevent spooking, but it usually diffuses the situation. Mind you, it's easy for me because I find my mare's (very rare) spooks pitiful and hilarious.


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## arabianrider00 (Apr 20, 2017)

Ah the vicious cycle of a nervous horse and nervous rider. 

Your horse is nervous because he can tell YOU'RE nervous- to him, you are not his leader, you are a passenger, which makes him feel all alone without a herd and gives him no confidence. It's a rider's responsibility to get their fears and emotions in check before, during, and after a spook because if the rider is freaking out, the horse's fear is confirmed by the rider's nervousness. You sound like you need more experience. You need to ride other horses and take lessons, even if it's just from a knowledgeable friend. Once you are strong in your balance, and feeling confident in your abilities, you will be a much more effective rider. You kept mentioning that you were "a bad rider" in your post. By saying that, you are only making yourself more anxious and self-doubting. Instead say to yourself, "Maybe I didn't have fancy lessons, but I've been doing this for a while, I am a capable rider, and I am confident." Even if you don't feel it's true, say it to yourself over and over. It will help you much more than just believing you are bad rider. 

However, I cannot stress enough how much you need to get your emotions in check. Panic has no place in horseback riding. It is fine for some riders to be more anxious than others, but it is learning how to keep it in check that distinguishes good riders from REALLY good riders. It is your responsibility to your horse to be a confident leader and to learn over time how to laugh at your horse's spooks rather than panic and break down. You need to gain more experience on other horses before you get on yours. I know you say he is an easy ride, but if you are freaking out every time you're on him, you're just making his job harder and scarier for him. 

Also, it is fine to be anxious. Everyone's level of fear tolerance is different. But with horses, you can't just give up and say, "Oh I've always been an anxious person, oh well." You have to work to make yourself better, to calm your mind, to find your balance, physical strength, and experience, and most importantly to get emotions under control. Panic, anger, and the like are not acceptable around horses. 

I second the one rein stop.
Also, perhaps try a calming supplement for your horse. It can help take the edge off their anxiousness.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

You have received some great advice that I can't add to. 

As far as my horses spooking: two of them never spooked; one spooks in place; the other one can dip and spin, give me change for dime and stop dead to stare at whatever it is he perceives is about to eat him alive. It never occurs to him to run away -- just put my back out of place because he spins that good.

You might want to think about taking some of that magnesium yourself. ---- no kidding ---- they make magnesium for humans. Look at internet reviews and buy something of quality

There's way too much fretting going on inside you 

I tip my hat to you for hanging in there. As a last resort, much as it would hurt, you may have to sell this horse and look for one that is much quieter in nature. It doesn't have to be superbly broke but it would have to have an inherent sense of calm that you just can't teach a horse. Selling a horse for another one is something I never encourage --- I generally tell people to suck it up and stick it out, lol. But your situation is an exception


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm sure everyone has heard it but maybe there's one that hasn't:

What color do you get when you mix a green rider with a green horse?

Answer: Black and blue.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Good advise already given, so not to wind up typing a lot, I will post these two videos by Larry Trocha, as after all, pa picture (better yet a video, LOL! ), is worth a 1000 words
I like to think in terms of taking the head away, using body control, versus the oRS per say. Anyway, the video shows how to use that ability to take the head away and direct the feet. The vidoes also show what your position should be (not the fetal position),and how you run your hand down that one rein
Anyway, hope watching them helps


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> As a last resort, much as it would hurt, you may have to sell this horse and look for one that is much quieter in nature.


Yes, that is the last resort. And if you do go horse shopping, remember that there are calm, laid back horses that are cowards and will freak out in some situations, and nervous horses that are very brave and curious and will ignore a lot of stimuli in spite of their hyper nature.

But in your case I suspect your horse is taking his cue from you, and that when you gain your confidence, so will your horse.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I will post these two videos by Larry Trocha
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NXg796B8HQ
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt7QnI0DMM4


Thanks Smilie, those are terrific videos.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I tried the one rein stop with a very rubbery Arab. He just carried on cantering with his nose on my toe :/ Luckily, we tried it in an arena just for fun and he wasn't spooky in any case. It usually works for most horses, in my experience.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Regarding brave vs fearful horses:

There was a study, posted on another thread, measuring the heart rate of horses that were calm during exposure to fearful objects/situations opposed to the heart rate of horses that exhibited their fear in various ways.

I've searched for it unsuccessfully but perhaps someone reading this will know the name and/or url.

The gist of it was that surprisingly the horses that were considered to be the bravest had the higher heart rate opposed to the horses that displayed their fear in various ways.

The suggestion by the authors, and suggestion only as more research was deemed necessary to draw a clear conclusion, was that the horses that were thought to be the bravest had found themselves between a rock and a hard spot, meaning that there was a danger associated with the situation presented but there was also a danger in responding to the fear based on past experiences.

That is all arguable, but the fact that the bravest horses consistantly had the highest heart rate is not open to argument. They just did.

Food for thought when puzzling over how to best deal with a "fearful" horse. Horse's in the wild are all fearful. Their life virtually depends upon them being fearful.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

horsekaren said:


> I have a new horse that seems to spook a lot
> 
> he will spook once and break into canter to run away from the scary bush... I then struggle to calm myself and then we just spook about everywhere
> 
> ...



 
It is refreshing to hear someone so HONEST with themselves, so kudos to you on that. 

It sounds like, in general, that you would greatly benefit from therapy. And I certainly do not mean that to be derogatory in any way. (I myself have been through therapy for other things.) It sounds like you need to develop a way for you to control your anxiety. Because you are right -- the more anxious you are, the more anxious the horse is, the more they are going to spook. It is a vicious cycle. You have to figure out a way to "break" it. If you are not confident, then your horse will not be either. 

I do think you would also greatly benefit from an actual riding instructor to coach you through, but I also think you do need to seek therapy so you can learn ways to control and manage your fear and anxiety. 



horsekaren said:


> *What do you do when a horse spooks?* how to you stop them from charging off? at the moment I am doing that awful thing where I pull on the reins and bring my chest forward in a panic which obviously isn't stopping him.... I heard pulling the reins down can stop him, is this correct?




It depends. 

If I have a horse that is actively looking for something to spook at, I will start giving them work to do -- circles, serpentines, sidepassing, rollbacks, etc. I want to redirect their mind back to me, and away from the "rest of the world". If they are focused on me, it's takes away the possibility of a spook. 

Now, if a bird suddenly flies up in front of my horse while on the trail, I don't mind if they spook a little (heck, it usually scares me too!) but I also expect the horse not to take off at a dead run. ;-)

For the most part, I don't take my horses out on the trail unless they have a good stop and a soft mouth. So part of it is plain ol' training. They are BROKE enough that they have that muscle memory to my cues, and they're never really going to have a freak out moment.

And for some horses, that does take a lot of time. It probably took my Red a good year before he got over spooking and BOLTING with me. But he hasn't done it since. And of course there will come a point when they are dead broke in the arena or controlled environment, and you just have to get out there and do it.

So with your horse, part of the problem is your anxiety. He will not be confident in you if he does not trust you. So you will have to fix that, if you expect to progress with him. One thing you can try is *singing outloud*. You'll feel like an idiot, but when you sing, you are naturally pushing air out from your abdomen which naturally relaxes your body. 

Maybe using myself as an example, I have anxiety when snowboarding.  I'm not very good at it, and it hurts when you fall! (and I've twisted my ankle in the past and banged up my knee bad on another occasion). And of course, when I get anxious, I tense up, and then THAT is what causes me to fall. The last time we went, I started talking outloud to myself. I kinda felt like an idiot but you know what? It helped me relax so I did it. I'd just say things like _"Yeah! Woo! You got this turn. Cool! Toe side ....."_ blah blah whatever came to mind to pump myself up. It helped keep my relaxed, and kept me from falling. ;-)

The other part with your horse is you have to teach him the correct way to respond to something he's scared of. You have to teach him that he can *trust you* and that you will not put him in harm's way. This is where an instructor is useful to present "scary things" in a controlled manner so you can teach your horse how to react when they are unsure.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> But address this, for the OP and for me as well.
> 
> The horse sees some campers and vehicles in the distance in HIS field that were not there before. He is expressing clear concern for what he is seeing as we return from a ride. It is windy to boot. He is not near spooking but is clearly worried. I am aware of the situation and am not worried about him loosing it.
> 
> ...


If this were me, I would have started bringing the horse's attention back on me, immediately when they first started being looky-looky at the campers. 

If the horse was focused on me, they may not have even noticed the leafed branch when it moved. (And of course, it's possible they still would have .... but I would have already had a "hold" on the horse to possibly have decreased the leap forward/sideways.)

This is exactly what I do with my horse Red, with his history of spooking and bolting when I first got him. When he starts looking at something, I start bringing his attention back to me immediately. 

....and he hasn't bolted in years as a result. It's worked well for him. Granted, he's a heck of a lot more broke than when I first got him too, but if I do not give him the opportunity to be worried about something, it becomes a non-issue.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horsef said:


> I tried the one rein stop with a very rubbery Arab. He just carried on cantering with his nose on my toe :/ Luckily, we tried it in an arena just for fun and he wasn't spooky in any case. It usually works for most horses, in my experience.


You have to teach it correctly, before you use it. Watch those videos. 
Yes, you can certainly cause a horse to rubber neck, just trying to direct him by pulling on one rein, as ahorse follows his shoulders, not his nose, until taught to do so
Many people confuse the correct one rein stop, with just having ahorse bring his nose around, over flexing, , which is not a ORS, esp on a horse not taught softness in the rest of his body, thus running off at the shoulders.
I would say the horse you were riding , lacked shoulder control, and you were trying to direct him, pulling on one rein.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

beau159 said:


> If this were me, I would have started bringing the horse's attention back on me, immediately when they first started being looky-looky at the campers.
> 
> If the horse was focused on me, they may not have even noticed the leafed branch when it moved. (And of course, it's possible they still would have .... but I would have already had a "hold" on the horse to possibly have decreased the leap forward/sideways.)
> 
> ...


Agree, and that is also addressed in those videos. Soon as Hondo became looky, was the time to do some body control exercises and have gotten his attention back on you, telling him, 'hey, I'm still here, and I say those trailers are okay 
Had his attention been back on you, two things would have been accomplished.You would have diffused that flight mode, thus one little extra element wouldn't have pushed him into acting on his state of mind, and you would have reminded him that you were still there, a leader he could trust and respect
I know this last concept does not sit well with you, BUT when I know something is on no danger, I expect my horse to then accept my assessment, trust me, and continue on.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Oh Hondo's attention was definitely on me. "Hey buddy, look, some more campers coming in. It's ok, no problem. We're almost home."

And we would have been fine. His anxiety level was just not that high. Just a typical situation without a chance of serious problem.

But then BLAM! Someone might as well have set off a stick of dynamite behind him. He didn't have a chance. One rein stop? I'd say the 25 feet he went was over in less than 2 seconds.

All a person can do in those situations is stay on.

If I had tensed up, I'd have been on the ground in a heartbeat.

When I first started riding only three years ago, I rode out some big spooks and actually thought of them as somewhat fun. (i had 40 years of serious off road motorcycling to help out)

The trouble came when I decided to take his bridle when bringing him in from the field and returning him to the herd bareback also. 

After he did his 180 bareback and I hit the ground really hard, I stiffened my entire body after that at the slightest suggestion of a spook. And when he did a big one, I came off.

Watching the video of the lady and the white mule I realized I had rode out similar before being hyper sensitized (scared).

I made a slow motion copy and would play that in my head while riding. That gave me back my confidence and have not been on the ground since. Fingers crossed.

And remember, when I wanted Hondo, a 60 YO born and raised on the ranch flat out said he was not safe to ride solo above a walk. And he is the only horse to ever get out from under a 35 YO born and raised on the ranch.

I am sooooo happy with the understandings we have come to share. He even let me work about 20 feet under the prop thrust of a helicopter. People in the helicopter said he was doing some fancy foot work but he trusted me and stayed right there until I decided he'd had enough.

For the OP, here's the video of the spooked horse and white donkey. Focus on her body after the spook, not on what coulda shoulda been done before the spook. 






And here's the same video with the first part at full speed with slow motion following.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, what does that video show you, besides a good rider staying on, which is the name of the game.
I see a horse that lost some forward, focused on the donkey, not the rider, who should have changed her approach ,soon as the horse became concerned. There was lots of room to use a more indirect approach, use some body control, like a counter flex
An uncontrolled spook, where you just ride it out, can't be avoided when something pops out suddenly,, and then you just go with the horse, prevent a bolt as a follow up, but there was alot of time where she could have been more pro active, JMO


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> So, what does that video show you,


The video showed me what I had done before I became fearful and what I could do again if I maintained my confidence.

If/when I became nervous I would play that in my head while riding and it would settle and relax me. May work for some and not others. Worked for me. I believe her skill is something to emulate.

There have been lots of Monday morning quarterbacks mentioned this that and the other that shoulda coulda been done in that scene but I'm not certain they are necessarily correct.

It may be that she knew her horse well and even though on alert saw no reason to have significant concern for riding past. The bombshell came when the donkey charged toward the fence. At that point maybe a one rein stop and disengagement of the hips would have succeeded, and maybe not.

The one rein stop is taught to everyone here on the ranch. A tool everyone has. When I was going on my first bitless roundup I was required to demonstrate the ability to able to take Hondo's head away both right and left.

It's a good tool but not an end all cookie cutter solution to every situation.

Take Hondo's head away when he is looking at something he deems to be possible dangerous and he will absolutely give you the evil eyeball that appears to say, "What in the Sam Hill do you think you're doing? You know very well I can't see well this way and I NEED to see well." I mean he really really looks very angry and very agitated.

So I really do think there's a bit more to it than, "Oh, just learn the ORS and you'll be fine".

Watching a good rider ride out a spook is invaluable. When viewing, the information goes straight to the muscle area of the brain. This is not theory. It is a primary means of physical learning for just about all animals.

I continue to watch that video periodically while visualizing myself doing the same.

Thank you for the question.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Everyone knows a horse tends to pick up on the riders nervousness. Here's an actual study that demonstrated the correlation between the human heart rate and the horse's. Thought it interesting.

Horses React to Human Heart Rates, Study Finds | TheHorse.com


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

Hondo said:


> Regarding brave vs fearful horses:
> 
> There was a study, posted on another thread, measuring the heart rate of horses that were calm during exposure to fearful objects/situations opposed to the heart rate of horses that exhibited their fear in various ways.
> .


 Years ago I remember seeing something similar on Scottish tv. They were looking at what made a good police horse and how they coped with the work. They run an experiment where two horses’ heartrates were recorded as they walked down a line of scary objects. The first horse had a very high heartrate but didn’t react; he was described as brave and ideal for the work. The seconded jumped around but his heartrate barely rose.


My Toby was a nervous but brave type (if he trusted his rider). He would stop and have a look, but a simple ‘walk on’ would make him move quietly past the problem, although he would put a slight bend in his body – his way of avoiding it. The ones before and after, either due to greenness or temperament, have varied from mild spooks to explosive rears. 



To be able to handle them safely, I’ve had to learn to change myself. I’ve the bad habit of going quiet and still in the saddle if I see, what I think, is a possible problem ahead. I’m only telling the horse there’s something to worry about, whether real or imagined. As fear is built-in to keep horses and humans alive, it’s up to me break the vicious circle - easy to write about but hard to do in the heat of the moment.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry Honda, but I agree with Smilie on this one. 

For the first video you posted, I see the horse tensing up and looking at the donkey. The rider _allowed_ the horse to continue looking, and _continue to worry_ about the donkey ... which resulted in the spook. 

If you have a horse that tends to spook, they will spook time and time again if this scenario is replayed.

If you have a rider that would like to get their horse to stop spooking, like the OP, then you need to take steps to set your horse up for success.

You are correct that once the horse starts spooking, now there's not much you can do except ride quiet to try to quiet the horse. Again, the key to preventing a spook is to recognize the signs the horse is giving you (VERY obvious in that first video) and to do something about it.

In that video, even after the horse stopped moving, the rider STILL allowed the horse to continue to stand there and look at the donkey. The horse is still in "flight" mode. You won't get the horse out of flight mode until you do something to redirect their attention back to the rider, and get the thinking side of their brain going again ... instead of the reactive side.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@beau159 I know you are experienced and far more than I for certain. Observing the riders relaxed riding skills in the video I also conclude that she must also be fairly experienced.

She allowed her horse to stop and look at the donkey. I'b be betting if the donkey had just stood there, they would have moved on. But the donkey did not stand there.

So, I'd like to know exactly what should have been done, IYHO.

Bend the horse's head away from the donkey so the horse could only see it with one eye rather than two where it could judge the distance?

Ask-tell-demand for the horse to keep moving forward? While bending away or toward?

Really, I want to know exactly what you and or @Smilie believe should have been done with any horse in the same situation as soon as the horse saw the donkey and expressed concern.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

What would I have done?
Well, for one thing, soon as my horse became concerned, and seeing the footing was available, I would have kept forward, taken him off the road and done some exercises to get the hroses attention back on me, or I might simply asked for the face, and counter flexed the horse slightly, while keeping forward, if there were a fence there, thus no room or footing to use slightly more indirect approach and to work on getting the horse;s attention back on me, my minimizing the horse slipping on pavement
In fact, I had avery similar situation some years back, riding alone, and not with group, even, like this horse. I was riding my reining mare, who has sliders on, around the 'block, which consists of four roads, about 2 miles long each, until the intersections, where they meet. Three are gravel, and one paved
As I was riding down the paved road, a donkey in a field, much like that video, came walking towards us. My mare was okay, until he started to bray, and then she had thoughts of 'leaving Dodge'
First thing I did, since she has slide plates on, was to boot her into the ditch, where we then had a lesson on getting her mind back on me, listening to the aids.
Then, just got back on the road, with the point across as to who was taking who for aride
When that horse in the video, flies sideways, it is also moving into that rider's leg, thus not obeying the aids, staying between them
She is lucky that the horse did not go down on the pavement with her, and could have prevented the horse going down period, by choosing her 'discussion ground, versus the horse taking her there, LOL1


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> @*beau159* I know you are experienced and far more than I for certain. Observing the riders relaxed riding skills in the video I also conclude that she must also be fairly experienced.
> 
> She allowed her horse to stop and look at the donkey. I'b be betting if the donkey had just stood there, they would have moved on. But the donkey did not stand there.
> 
> So, I'd like to know exactly what should have been done, IYHO.


And I'll bet the horse would have still spooked even if the donkey did not move. (Things do not have to move to cause horses to spook .... and sometimes, non-moving objects are just as terrifying.)

The instant that horse brought its head sky high in the air and stiffened to look at the donkey, I would have turned the horse away from the donkey and went to the grassy area right next to the path and started "working" the horse. Doing circles, serpentines, rollbacks, etc to make the horse pay attention to ME and totally ignore the donkey. You could even do this at a walk -- you don't have to work the horse into a sweat (nor am I suggesting it). I just give the horse a bunch of things to do in a calm manner so that they shift their focus away from the scary object, and onto the rider. 

On that same token, me as the rider is ALSO not looking at the donkey. If I don't want my horse to pay attention to it, neither will I.

If the horse isn't paying attention to the donkey, they cannot possibly spook at it. 

When I feel like I have the horse listening to me, I'll ask them to walk on the trail as if nothing happened. If their attention shifts back to the donkey, you just rinse and repeat. 

Eventually, you have a horse that is FOCUSED ON ITS RIDER and is not concerned with its surroundings, because it knows it's job is to focus on the rider. If the rider isn't concerned about something (like the donkey), the the horse learns they also do not need to be worried about it.

Depending on the horse, yes, this will take time to develop a confident mount. It took Red a good *year* before he quit spooking and bolting. But as with anything, you just remain calm and consistent.

And of course, it is a totally different scenario where you have something SUDDEN that spooks a horse like a bird flying up in front of you. In those situations, you don't have a warning and you just do what you have to do to calm the horse down. But in the video you posted, that is not a sudden situation. That is a horse that is giving the rider tons of red flags and opportunities to stop the spook before it comes, and the rider did nothing to prevent it.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hopefully this back and forth will ultimately be useful and instructive to the OP.



Smilie said:


> or I might simply asked for the face, and counter flexed the horse slightly, while keeping forward


At 9 seconds into the the video she did take the face back and proceed forward.

And toward the end of the clip she rides by the donkey with her horse again looking at it but not stopping. That is at about 1:17. Then she comes back and rides right up to the donkey.

Looked to me like there was a bunch of gals there that pretty much had a clue on what they were doing.

Was there any point where you would have applied a ORS? At the initiation of the bolt or was it too late then?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

beau159 said:


> Things do not have to move to cause horses to spook .


Hee. Yes so I've been told. Horses are afraid of only two things. Those that move and those that don't! 

But seriously, I have all versions in my computer and have watched them several times. I know what a horse looks like when they fling their head sky high. Dragon did that about an hour ago while I was trimming. But I did not see where that horse went head sky high. Minute/seconds please?

After she brought his head back around where only one eyeball could see the donkey the horse was proceeding along nicely until the bugle boy blue CHARGE. Then the horse went into full panic mode.

As mentioned above, notice it the end the horse still looks at the donkey as he passes but doesn't stop and doesn't blow. I suspect there was a bit of desensitizing went on that was not shown.

My view is that the lady knew the horse and did not asses the situation as one that would escalate, just as I did with the extra camper commotion. Had she thought that the donkey might have charged them, I expect her actions would likely have been different. I know that had I suspected a tree would have attacked us suddenly from the right flank, my actions would have been different indeed. As it was I did not assess reason for concern based on an average of 3 rides per week for the last three years.

None of us will really ever know as none of us were there. But it's fun to talk about and speculate anyhow. And it all gives the OP more stuff to cogitate about.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Hopefully this back and forth will ultimately be useful and instructive to the OP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, never use a ORS, in an emergency situation ,on a horse that has not first been taught it

The reason I prefer,'take the head away', is because I use it as per the video with Larry Trocha, and think more of it in the terms of body control. Note, he is having the horse respond in his entire body, and is not just trying to hold that horse with a ORS, but rather preventing the horse from being engaged, stiffening against his cues, leaning into the bit
The horse had already creased to have forward motion, so I don't see any application for the ORS, 
As already mentioned, the time I would have started to ride actively, was when that hrose first stiffened, started to stall out, and became focused on that donkey. The head down cue is the first thing I would have asked for, along with strong leg to keep that forward. If I thought the horse was going to fly sideways, I would have kept forward and slightly counter flexed the horse. . to ride by that donkey.
The only way the horse could then spook, would be towards that donkey, I use this technique, when riding atrail, where you have to keep straight ahead, as there can be a drop off on the side away from the fearful object.
Other then that, given where t hey were riding, soon as my horse felt like he might do something stupid, I would have gotten him off of that pavement and then made him focus on me
Depending on how broke your horse is, you can also ask that horse to go towards that donkey, Chances are, the donkey will move, and the horse will feel empowered. I dot hat when young heifers, turned out in the spring, run bucking up to the fenceline of the road I am riding down. My horses don't live with cattle
No, that horse does not look like a candidate for the ORS, as it lacks softness, and chances are, had the girl tried it, could have had a true wreak, instead of the close one she had
It was great that the girls worked on the donkey problem afterwards, but that really would not transfer to the next object that horse might freak out at. You can't desensitize a horse to everything, and then you need the tools to keep control of that horse, when the next 'monster appears
Some of this is training, experience, trust, but beyond that, you need the safely of some ingrained body control, which that horse does not have


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

The techniques some are describing and advising to be used apply well to trained, mellow QH types. They do not apply well to some other types of horses. This is evidenced by some of the terms used such as, "this means he can only spook in a certain direction," or "this will take his focus off the object." 

I've learned that no matter what you are doing with your body or the reins, the horse can move in any direction he chooses at any time. So don't be fooled into thinking you have control over the wrong type of horse, because that will lead to an explosion. 

I haven't commented earlier although following this thread, because it sounds like the OP has a mellow, trained horse and so I see no reason why a one rein stop and a bit more experience won't help her. At this point, she is not planning to ride an hotter horses, it sounds like.

Larry Trocha's horse in the videos is a picture of calmness, and that is exactly the type of horse his methods should work on. The horse doesn't seem to mind too much, even when he starts doing some quick little yanks on the bit. Many horses I've ridden would have been worked up by the fourth little twitch and shouting back at him by then like, "What the hey are you expecting from me? Make up your mind!!"

But @Hondo is asking legitimate questions about horses that spook.

I believe your tactics change greatly depending on if you have a 0-6 temperament type of horse versus a 7-10 temperament. With a 0-6 type, you will probably feel the horse beginning to be concerned. Slowly, gradually, this will build and the horse will look at the donkey. Then you can think, Hmm, I guess I will take the horse over here and get him focusing back on me. What @Smilie says will be fine, the horse has this sort of one track mind and will go "OK, I will think about what you are asking now. Can't think about a donkey AND doing a sidepass." 

Right. Then there is the other type of horse. You will see a flash of white out of the corner of your eye and before you realize there is a donkey there you will feel the muscles tighten underneath you. If you are lucky, you will be able to count one mississippi, two mississippi before something happens. Probably you will have a fraction of one second instead.

This horse also has a one track kind of mind. But that one track will hone in with the keenest, unwavering sharpness on the threat of instant death. You might be like, "Hey, let's practice our shoulder-in now," and the horse's mind will be like "whitedevilcomingtokillme-whitedevilcomingtokillme." 

I believe with many horses, it is about keeping their focus on the rider or preventing their focus from being on the spooky thing. But with many other horses, it is about helping the horse get any type of thought other than the spooky thing back into their head. They often can't do this until they achieve a distance where they feel safe, and also have had an opportunity to decide the thing isn't going to kill them right now. You can't get a focus from a horse that lost it at the first second they were spooked.

In my opinion, the woman on the horse in the donkey video is riding a horse that is mid-range temperament wise. He calmed pretty quickly once he saw that the donkey was a horse-like animal and it wasn't trying to eat him. I think the horse was hot enough that he wouldn't have just been distracted away from that thought by working or having the rider trying to get his focus on something else. But he didn't feel that he had to run very far away either, and calmed quickly. 
She did nothing wrong, because I think she knew her horse well.

On a different horse with a hotter temperament, I would not advise trying to keep her horse near the donkey or facing it as she did. If the horse had more energy/excitement/fear, he may not have just sat down but rather flipped up and over, bucked or leaped off from being restrained. On those types of horses it is best to let them get whatever distance they feel they need first, then stop and assess later. Otherwise you will not be with the horse for very long, and he'll be heading off somewhere on his own. Speaking from many experiences where I tried handling things one way or another.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, Larry is demonstrating on a broke horse, But to then assume that anyone riding stock horses are just riding calm easy going horses, thus those methods only apply to them, is wrong
I wish I could find video I found the other day, that used a warm blood as the example. The horse-was a terrible spooker, and the trainer given to work witht hat horse, stated that the fundamental problem was that the horse was not soft enough and also lost forward
The donkey did not appear suddenly-sorry. Any horse will react to that kind of scenario, and you can't prepare for it, just go with the horse and ride it out.
The discussion is on that video, and that rider let that hrose stare at the donkey, then stop, with the donkey coming towards the horse, who was allowed to stand hips engaged, focused on the donkey, and in flight mode
It is thus totally expected that the horse is going to react, as that donkey comes closer, past his comfort zone, after all, his head is up, neck stiff, hips engaged equals flight
You can't use body control on ahrose never taught body control,that is stiff and resistant, and the idea that it only applies to stock horses is rather narrow, as I have ridden some that could leave you sitting in the dust pretty good, given a chance

There was a good reason our Crimson War/ Go Man Go bred stud had a nick name of Rambo!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, a horse can go in any direction, if he is not soft and responsive to aids , that are ingrained.
You only have to see horse running off, head cranked in the opposite direction of the one he is running off in-so yes, it is very possible, but one needs to look at the reason
The horse lacks shoulder control and has learned to rubber neck
If you have a horse, that is such a space cadet that you can't get his mind back on you, riding him out would be the last thing I would do. Just a road there, but what if that ditch had been a drop off? The horse would have done more then sit on his **** a bit!


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## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Horsef said:


> Additionally to the excellent advice above, I found that laughing at them helps. I think it does two things: turns your attitude around and surprises them and tells them there is nothing to be afraid of. It will not prevent spooking, but it usually diffuses the situation. Mind you, it's easy for me because I find my mare's (very rare) spooks pitiful and hilarious.


I do something like this whenever I see something in our path that my horse might think is scary. I just make light of it, saying oh, look, some trash, and keep my demeanor very calm and dismissive of whatever it is. It helps Charlie to know that I have noticed these things too, and don't find them threatening. At least, I believe it does help him.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, this is CA, but by perhaps lsitening as to what he is saying, some of the ideas might become clearer, far as getting the mind of the hrose on you, giving him ajob to do
That horse in the video was allowed to tune the rider out, go into flight mode, and yup, not un expected as to what happened. Good thing only a little ditch huh !

Watch How To Stop Horse Spooking On The Trail ? Clinton Anderson ? The Horseaholic


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> If you have a horse, that is such a space cadet that you can't get his mind back on you, riding him out would be the last thing I would do. Just a road there, but what if that ditch had been a drop off? The horse would have done more then sit on his **** a bit!


Yes, that's why many people don't ride those horses out. But many people do, so that's why some of us need to know what to do. Hondo is a talented spooker, so one of those types many people would not ride out. So are both of my mares (one far more than the other), and so is my friend's horse Nala. If I waited for Amore to stop being a space cadet, she'd have never left an arena in her life. Just today she was trying to figure out how to get some grass I was holding in my hand at the gate, but she was blocked because her head was out the window (she would have had to back up and go out the open doorway). Couldn't figure it out.

When we first started taking Nala to the beach in fall of '15, I watched Nala's rider come off three times in three rides. She said Nala had a habit when she got her of "chucking off" her riders. It was all just bad spooks. One was my fault, I thought we could sneak past a bald eagle sitting on a snag but he flew up once we got close. 

Nowadays she is trailering all over the place to go to beaches, trails and arenas. The only way to get her used to that stuff was to get her out in it. She was 12, so had been around, too spooky for dressage they thought but just had not had the right rider yet. 

It is so important to know your horse. Sometimes we meet up with aggressive dogs. Nala's rider runs and they outrace the dog. Her horse is very fast. With my mare, I turn and chase the dog. She is confident as long as she can see the dog, but we need some distance before running because she reacts less calmly when chased. 

Several months ago there was a big group ride and Nala's rider attended. An aggressive dog was loose and met the group at the end of the ride. Nala's rider turned her horse and they ran as they usually do, making sure the other horses were well in hand for their owners first. The other horses were far calmer types and well trained. The dog stayed back and continued harassing the other horses, whose riders kept doing one rein stops and keeping their horses working in the area, until one horse finally had enough and quit following the rider's signals, bolting off and losing the rider who broke her femur.

I don't really limit a calm temperament to stock horses or a feisty one to hotbloods, which is why I find that scale handy of 1-10 saying how hot and reactive a horse is. Regardless, any horse can lose it so it's good to be able to have a few strategies available to use.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just because you ride ahorse down the trail, does not mean he is truly broke, in the sense some of us mean.
No, I am not going to ask my horse to sidepass, when he is spooking from that donkey, as that does nothing far as gaining body control.That si not the kind of exercises meant.Just wanted to clarify, for those reading
IF your horse is responsive to aids, and thus you can keep forward, does listen to 
your , legs is soft in his neck and poll, then when you have him counterflexed with shoulders towards donkey, head slightly away, the only direction he can spook is towards that donkey, unless he pushes against your leg, braces against that rein, looses forward. If that is the case, go back tot he arena and put that training on him


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I understand the points you are making, and yes, you deal differently with different hroses and also situations.
You have not ridden Charlie, so please allow that I have avery spooky hrose also, but that has gotten way better, and part of it is, that she now have some ingrained body control
Yes, when animals like dogs come up behind ahorse, best thing to do is have the horse turn and face the dog, or cow, or whatever, and hopefully show the hrose that they can move it
The last thing I would do, is try a ORS with an animal coming up behind me !
That donkey was in FRONT-so not the same at all. He also did not suddenly pop out.
No that horse was miles away from being close to as reactive as some young horses I have ridden out in the past, and that my son still rides out. The rider DID handle it incorrectly, JMO.
I already posted my thoughts on what she should have done, so we will have to agree to disagree.
She let the horse cease forward motion, let it stick head up , thus in flight mode, and passively let the hrose chose his reaction, which was totally expected, with the donkey coming closer, and the rider sitting there like a passenger


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Just because you ride ahorse down the trail, does not mean he is truly broke, in the sense some of us mean.


Just because a horse is truly broke, does not mean he will stay calm at all times when ridden down the trail. LOL.

Or put another way: sometimes a horse can only become truly broke to trails by being ridden down the trail, spooks and all. And some horses are not capable of being broke in the sense some of you mean.

Amore has engrained body control. She'll never have engrained mind control. Those two things do not correlate for her. You can't teach the body to respond "without thinking" unless the mind is part of the equation. Some horses will just never go auto for you. You can practice the cue and response a thousand times, but if the brain disconnects the horse will not respond anyway. There is no true muscle memory in that sense, with horse training. The brain always stays slightly involved even if you practice things over and over. Some horses don't know how to use "override" mode and some do. 

Some people think the dumber horses ignore a rider because they are too stupid to retain their training. Another point of view is that a dumber horse responds always to the trained cues, rather than thinking for himself in each situation. Perhaps a smarter horse knows he can override training when he wishes. I personally don't think horses are smarter or dumber, just have different personalities and talents.

Because of this, I feel there is no one gold standard technique to use for spooking.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> She let the horse cease forward motion, let it stick head up , thus in flight mode, and passively let the horse chose his reaction, which was totally expected, with the donkey coming closer, and the rider sitting there like a passenger


Smilie Smilie, you need to watch the video again. She didn't "let" the horse stop forward motion. Yes, the horse stopped forward motion and looked, and not with a high head.

She then cued the horse's head back pointing forward and cued the horse back into motion.

The horse was proceeding calmly and it is obvious the horse would have continued on it's way if the donkey had not "suddenly" charged.

Again, a person that rides as well as she did and stays as calm as she did under those circumstances must know a lot about horses in general and the one she was riding in particular, IMO.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Smilie Smilie, you need to watch the video again. She didn't "let" the horse stop forward motion. Yes, the horse stopped forward motion and looked, and not with a high head.
> 
> She then cued the horse's head back pointing forward and cued the horse back into motion.
> 
> ...


Hondo, Hondo, I did watch it several times, and again now. The head was up, Versus her asking for the head and poll, the minute the horse became concerned, ready to ride proactively. What is her leg doing, in the direction she should darn well know that horse is going to spook into/ ZERO.

I sure would have asked for the face, kept forward, with a strong leg into the right side of that horse, thus ribs and shoulder slightly towards that donkey

In fact, what happens, is exactly what I described in some previous posts when going into spooking, and ahorse spooking at some stationary object ahead, versus one that comes towards him. You are not going to prevent that bolt or sideways jump, with that animal coming towards the hrose, just sitting there, letting him look at it. You are in fact, setting the stage to exactly what happens
I mean, you can just prove your riding ability and sit out any spook, or you can use methods to control some spooks, where there is advance warning, where you can prevent that whirl, bolt,ect, and if you have never ridden horses out, that see elk for the first time, a horse drawn wagon suddenly coming around a mountain bend, having mountain bikes suddenly come up on your horse, then perhaps you can just continue without applying any body control, and I do believe, those that poo hoo it, really don't understand the softness and giving you first put on your horse, how you can keep control of a horse's feet using them correctly
I doubt that horse had the training to use the ORS, even if it was applicable, which I do not think it is, in cases like that, where you want to keep forward, while using training on your horse, to prevent that sideways spook, when YOU have time to set the horse up correctly'
I kinda reserve hard spooks to those you can't expect any horse not to do-as when something suddenly pops out, but even then, you can train your horse not to follow up that spook with an attempted bolt
I stayed on most horses , when I was younger, that did some pretty serious stuff, but I learned along the way, that you can learn to use knowledge that you pick up along the way, to migate you needed to 'prove' you can ride, when it is not nessisary
Perhaps, since my young children rode the hroses , over the years, that I first started, made me a little more aware of basics that help make any horse safer to ride out. Of course, some will all be abit more of a challenge, and I rode enough of those also, as that mare off the track, with baggage, and at a time, i knew less about training and riding hroses. I like to think I have learned along the way!


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi. Just want to say that when my horse spooks I ignore it and continue on. I don't let her stand and decide if she should be afraid or not. It isn't up to her. She is a horse and she goes where I say. If she cannot deal with that then I have to evaluate myself to see what I am doing wrong. 

Horses are drama queens. Don't let them suck you into the horse drama. 

OP if you are not confident in the saddle with your horse, you need to find a good trainer to help you. You need to ride as many school horses that you feel safe on as much as you can and only ride your horse when you feel confident. 

A fearful rider on a fearful horse is a downward spiral. I know, I have been there. What I did was get a job with a trainer and have lots of lunge line stirrupless and no hands lessons. There is nothing so confident building as realizing you don't need your hands or stirrups to stay on a horse. I didn't ride my horse for about a year while I built up my confidence. It was the best thing I could have done. I did of course hand walk her etc. 

You need to be calm and grounded around horses. They know if you are nervous. Don't buy into their drama. 

I ride my horse around bareback with a halter and a lead rope sometimes. When doing that I do not worry about spooking. I don't think about it because it isn't going to happen. If by some chance it does, I know what to do. My horse knows what to do. 

Not suggesting you do the same as in bareback and all. But please find a good trainer to help you


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Horses are afraid of only two things. Those that move and those that don't!


Haha, indeed!

:dance-smiley05:



Hondo said:


> But seriously, I have all versions in my computer and have watched them several times. I know what a horse looks like when they fling their head sky high. Dragon did that about an hour ago while I was trimming. But I did not see where that horse went head sky high. Minute/seconds please?


Pretty much at 5 seconds into the video. The horse's head is raised and neck is TENSE. 



Hondo said:


> After she brought his head back around where only one eyeball could see the donkey the horse was proceeding along nicely until the bugle boy blue CHARGE. Then the horse went into full panic mode.


.....the donkey did not "charge". :icon_rolleyes:

It came trotting over to say hi.





Hondo said:


> My view is that the lady knew the horse and did not asses the situation as one that would escalate, just as I did with the extra camper commotion.


Yup, it's possible. We don't know anything about this horse/rider combo except for what we see in the video. For all we know, this could be the very first time the horse has spooked in its life.

But trying to relate the video to the OP's situation when you have a horse that IS a chronic spooker/bolter, this video is a good example of what _not_ to do when you are trying to fix a horse that is a chronic spooker/bolter and break them of that response.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> I believe with many horses, it is about keeping their focus on the rider or preventing their focus from being on the spooky thing. But with many other horses, it is about helping the horse get any type of thought other than the spooky thing back into their head. * They often can't do this until they achieve a distance where they feel safe,* and also have had an opportunity to decide the thing isn't going to kill them right now. You can't get a focus from a horse that lost it at the first second they were spooked.


And with anything, training is always just that: A training process. Of course you won't get to your end result on day. The eventual goal is to re-train those horses to instantly look to the rider for guidance when a scary object enters the picture, rather than letting themselves decide when they feel safe enough to pay attention to the rider.

In the beginning, you are right, you won't get their attention when you try. But that's okay, because it's a training process. You just have to stay consistent each and every time and they'll come around.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Everything we do with horses, centers around them controlling/dampening their instinctive herd/prey mentality, and that includes spooking,accepting the rider as a substitute for herd security when handled or ridden, and even allowing a 'predator' on their back
Yes, when the horse has not been trained, has not learned to trust the rider's judgement, then it is absolutely natural for them to react first, get away to a safe distance, and then assess that perceived danger. However, through training, we teach horses to dampen spook reactions, WHEN, the rider assures the horse whatever object they are concerned about, is okay.
That is the entire point in training ahorse. Thus you have that mental conditioning/experience and you can then also use other tools, like body control, to keep that horse from that instinctive bolt, in those few seconds needed to get his mind back on you.
The two tools go together. 
There were times way back when, where I also just used the bond developed with ahrose, rode ahorse out without ever worrying about body control, and it worked very well most times. I also found, no matter how good of a bond you have with any horse, they are still ahrose, and sooner or later, they just might encounter something that momentarily has them ignoring that bond of trust, so your 'buddy' might offer to buck, bolt, ect, and then it sure is nice to have another tool and get that buddy back to you.
I know people that have felt betrayed, because the hrose they thought loved them, was a solid 'Eddie', bucked them off or even bolted in some situation, applying human type emotions when that horse was just being a horse while that person expected him to be like a fellow human, or an animal not hard wired to react, choosing flight, unless forced to fight

I imagine what would have happened, had that donkey came over while braying, as in my case, or those other horses weren't there. That horse might just have kept going
I would bet money, had that person been riding out by herself, had that donkey added braying, that horse would not have come back to her, but headed wherever home was, with or without her!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Returning to the intent that I posted the video for the OP, can everyone agree that the riding of the lady after the spook was initiated is something to emulate?

Or did she make a handful of mistakes during the riding portion?

Hee hee. About the donkey just coming to say hi, which I think is correct. But try explaining that to the horse! The horse will insist HE CHARGED ME!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Returning to the intent that I posted the video for the OP, can everyone agree that the riding of the lady after the spook was initiated is something to emulate?
> 
> Or did she make a handful of mistakes during the riding portion?
> 
> Hee hee. About the donkey just coming to say hi, which I think is correct. But try explaining that to the horse! The horse will insist HE CHARGED ME!



She stayed on, which goes right with the definition of the art of horsemanship;, to keep the horse between you and the ground'. LOL!
I wonder, though, had the rest of the horses bolted, how successful she would have been in re gaining some control, or even riding past there eventually.


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## eclecticrider (Apr 20, 2017)

gottatrot said:


> Then there is the other type of horse. You will see a flash of white out of the corner of your eye and before you realize there is a donkey there you will feel the muscles tighten underneath you. If you are lucky, you will be able to count one mississippi, two mississippi before something happens. Probably you will have a fraction of one second instead.


This is my horse! We will be going along calm as can be, just enjoying the ride, and all of a sudden, the sudden tensing of muscles under me, the spin, the attempt to bolt, and me grateful I've spent as many hours in the saddle as I have lately because I know full well a year ago, my butt would've been in the sand as soon as his inside shoulder dropped out from under me. Many times, I don't even know WHAT the heck set him off, so we try to go around again. Sometimes he only spooks the first time and then he's fine to move along, other times, I get repeated balking over the unknown to me scary object. This usually happens in the "spooky end of the ring" but I haven't figured out a pattern of what is spooky at that end or what set of circumstances causes his decision that something there is gonna kill us. I haven't owned him long enough for him to see me as 100% his leader yet. I do believe we made some breakthroughs in the past 2 weeks though.

Like the OP, I have anxiety issues. I went through many years of therapy for it. Now my horse is my therapy. I bought my horse about 6 weeks ago, but I rode him in lessons for several months before I bought him (talk about convenient!) The first time I rode him, I thought he was going to kill me. The second time, I had that feeling that if I never rode another horse as long as I lived, I could die a happy woman. I've had terrible rides on him, so-so rides on him, and those perfect wonderful rides that we all dream of. I have good days and bad, and so does he. He is the type of horse that will tell you in no uncertain terms if he doesn't like the way you're riding him, so NOT a beginner horse, but still, not unsafe to ride by someone with a good seat and quiet hands. I take weekly lessons with him from an excellent riding instructor and trainer. I ride him without her in between but those weekly lessons have taught me how to handle him when he tests me. When I go on vacation, she will ride him for me to keep him exercised and focused until I return. With her guidance, riding him and owning him has helped dramatically increase my confidence both in the saddle and in my daily life.

I hope the OP will find a good instructor/trainer to help guide her through their joint confidence issues! From her descriptions, it sounds to me like her anxiety ramps up the horse's anxiety and then what might have been a minor startle or balk with a confident rider ends up turning into a much more dramatic bolting situation.

I hope she'll continue to update with her progress!


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## eclecticrider (Apr 20, 2017)

Hondo said:


> Returning to the intent that I posted the video for the OP, can everyone agree that the riding of the lady after the spook was initiated is something to emulate?
> 
> Or did she make a handful of mistakes during the riding portion?
> 
> Hee hee. About the donkey just coming to say hi, which I think is correct. But try explaining that to the horse! The horse will insist HE CHARGED ME!


She stayed on, which is good. I do feel that if she had managed to maintain a bit better posture (less fetus-like), and was a little less "handsy" that she may have regained control a little sooner, but in the end, she achieved the desired result - stayed on the horse, was able to pass the scary thing and everyone stayed safe.

That's just my untrained eye of course. She just looks the way I used to feel when my horse would spook until my instructor taught me to sit up and use more leg and less conflicting hand movement.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm wondering.....just wondering mind you. And I already pretty much know the opinions of all on what I'm wondering about so no real need to respond, unless of course you just somehow feel compelled.

There has been some discussion and examples of what is being referred to as "trapping the horse" meaning the horse becomes trapped between the scary thing and the rider who wishes and cues the horse to move on irregardless of the scary thing. This situation is thought to increase the fear, heart rate, adrenaline, etc.

So I'm wondering what would have happened if the rider had simply accepted the horse looking at the donkey until satisfied it was not a threat rather than cueing the horse onward.

I actually do that most of the time with Hondo. He seems to appreciate the fact that I'm looking too rather than ignoring it.

And that's only when he is the first to spot said scary object. If I am simply curious about something over yonder, Hondo does not differentiate between my head being up for curiosity or my head being up for possible danger. All the same to him. So in that case, I will have initiated his fear and it is difficult to take back sometimes under those conditions. Particularly if a tree attacks our right flank from the rear.

But if he spots something first and pulls up, turns his head so he can calibrate the distance of the scary thing, if I just let him look for a while he settles right down. The thing is, he is looking at it with one eye before he turns his head. But he needs both eyes to check the distance for danger assesment.

I have never ever once had him spook while letting him look. Not once ever. And I've allowed him to look a lot.

All horses are different of course, but I just gotta wonder what would have happened if she'd have allowed him to continue looking the first time while looking herself and perhaps talking to him in a nice calm voice.

May well have been the combination of donkey in front and rider pushing from atop built up too much pressure.

I won't ask what anyone thinks, I probably already know.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Might work, IF that donkey had not advanced, far as letting the horse look. The entire ball game changes, that that moose, cow, donkey, comes towards the hrose that is already on high alert, getting closer then the comfort zone for that horse
Trapping a horse, is more doing what that rider did, just trying to make the hrose stand, using reins. That is Why ahorse that balks,often rears,spins, as the rider is holding on to the hrose, so he has no where left to go but up or attempt to spin in the direction of his choice
In fact, that is one of the very reasons you get ahorse moving his feet, when something upsets him, versus stopping, then trying to use rein pressure to hold that hrose, as the donkey comes closer- in fact, that horse was 'trapped' in a sense
This is apicture of when Carmen first saw elk. I am just letting her stand there and look, on aloose rein, as those elk are not advancing towards us, and she is just curious. Were they to come towards us, I would have had to change my tactics


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> I'm wondering.....just wondering mind you. And I already pretty much know the opinions of all on what I'm wondering about so no real need to respond, unless of course you just somehow feel compelled.
> 
> There has been some discussion and examples of what is being referred to as "trapping the horse" meaning the horse becomes trapped between the scary thing and the rider who wishes and cues the horse to move on irregardless of the scary thing. This situation is thought to increase the fear, heart rate, adrenaline, etc.
> 
> ...


Have you had whatever concerned Hondo start to come towards him, thus 'invading that 'safe zone'? 
There is a heck of difference with ahorse allowed to look at some object, or even some animals that keep their distance, thus seem none threatening, and having that animal of concern come towards them, as happened in that video.
Unless that horse has already decided that the donkey is no threat, there is no way he is going to just continue to stand and look, as that donkey comes closer


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I just watched it again. I had it in my head that the donkey was stopped at first but it was in fact moving before the horse stopped for the first time.

To answer your question, had to think back but yes, one time. It was a time that I actually caused his concern. There was a vehicle off in the distance coming towards us that I didn't recognize. I focused in on it just wondering who could that be. And of course Hondo decided it was a dangerous vehicle although he usually ignores them. He was anxious enough that I pulled him 20 feet or so off the road and waited for them to approach and pass. One of the ranch owners was with a friend. They stopped and we chatted as Hondo fully settled. He was alert as they approached but did not bolt or ask to. I believe had I asked him to bolt, he would have happily complied.

But I allowed him to keep both eyes on the vehicle which allowed him to measure distance and speed of approach. I was calm and hopefully my heart rate was as well.

I have had him looking at something and had a cow or calf bolt out of a bush that caused him to take a couple of sidesteps but no more than that.

But anytime he is looking with concern trying to evaluate the situation it can get dicy in a hurry if something unexpected nearby happens.

For instance, if a porcupine had jumped out of a bush in front of you while looking at the elk, he might have spun before you could take any evasive action.

So the rider does need to be on alert in those situation but calm enough not to escalate the horse's tension.

When the horse is a little bit reactive and naturally fearful, there is just soooooo much that depends on how much the rider and horse know about each other. I believe almost every, if not every, situation is a little bit different.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo, though, basically knew what a vehicle was, where that horse might never have seen a donkey before
When we ride in K country, there are multi use trails, so mountain bikes. Because we are riding in mountains there, they come up suddenly, at speed, either over the crest of a hill in front of you, or up behind you.
Quite a few of the riders slow, or even stop, but not all. Horses have no time to assess as to what is coming up on them, silently, like a predator, and with speed
You absolutely then need to have some body control , plus trust from your horse, JMO
Yes , agree that every situation is different, and can change, i already mentioned where our dog brought an angry cow elk back to us and our hroses. She was upset, and had her tongue hanging out. She charged within five feet of the hroses, who were ready to 'leave Dodge' Obviously, she must have had a newborn calf in those trees, and regarded the dog as a wolf.
After the charge, she would go back into the trees, but then come charging out again, if we tried to ride past there.
Therefore, we had to try a completely different solution on the spot, as our horses were getting a 'mite' upset !
Thus, my oldest son galloped off down the trail, calling the dog. Quite a sight, to see my son on that three year old at dead run, dog on his heels, and cow elk bringing up the rear. Luckily, soon as that cow elk considered the dog far enough down the trail, she doubled back and we had no problem riding by that spot, minus the dog
I also posted before, riding with Smilie, in the winter hay field,when she was about three, past a tarped hay stack of square bales, Just as we were pasting that stack, several bales came rolling out from under that tarp, with a coyote leaping out behind them. He must have been mousing
If ever a horse could be excused for thinking they were being attacked, that was it!
To be expected, Smilie took several bolting jumps ahead, But, when I said a 
loud 'whoa, sat down, took her head away, she stopped.
About three years ago, Charlie was pretty green still, far as riding down the road, but was okay with cars and light trucks
That winter, we had alot of snow, so the ditches were higher then the road, and no shoulder. Well, it was aday after New Year, so chances of abig truck coming down that road were slim, plus things like B trains are not supposed to go down our road.
Along came a B train, and there was no where to go. Guess I could have gotten off.Instead, I turned Charlie to face it, and counter flexed her so her ribs were towards the ditch, head and neck tipped towards the road, plus I asked for her face and poll. She bravely held it together, until that truck passed close enough that I could have touched it. She did spook sideways, into the ditch a few feet, sunk, then stood there until it passed, then we scrambled back onto the road, and continued our ride, after all, couldn't happen twice in one day, and last thing I wanted to do, is turn her towards home at that point
There was also no room to do any body control exercises,moving feet, thus my choice to try and have her hold it together, and at least, if she could not do so completely, not spook into the path of the truck
Charlie is no little stock horse, but a 16.2hh mare with tons to muscle, and lots of 'life'


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Oh, so the question really was, did I ever successfully let Hondo look at something coming at him of a classification that he'd never seen before. Well, no. He is 17 and has seen everything the ranch has to offer.

But now I gotta ask you, was that the first truck that Smilie had ever seen?

Smilie said: "To be expected, Smilie took several bolting jumps ahead, But, when I said a 
loud 'whoa, sat down, took her head away, she stopped."

I have read in several places to take a horse's head away after the bolt has begun is a dangerous thing to do. They say it can cause them to trip and fall.

Personally, I heave ho on the Dr. Cooks saying Hondo! hoa, hoa, hoa, like the true beginner I am. But so far it has always worked.

Straighten me out.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Do not take the head away on a horse that has not first been taught to give his head, as you are quite right that you will make them fall, like in those old westerns. Alos, it was more like three leaping jumps,with me catching her on the third one, and not a full out galloping bolt
Far as that truck, in was a B train- you know, huge truck with two whatever you call them, behind each other, and it passed close enough that I could have touched it.It also was not Smilie, but Charlie, and no she had never seen a diesel huffing air brake B train. During the summer, I could have taken her into the ditch,or at least on the shoulder
Far as just whoa, and even pull on two reins, have done that also, and it was Smilie that time, going down the road. I was riding her home on aloose rein, and did not even bother taking up contact, as Smilie is very used to traffic.
In this case, it was an old jalopy , and the driver did slow to pass, but when barely past us, gunned the motor, with that old car giving off a few loud back fires. Even I jumped. Smilie jumped ahead, but I merely had to take slack out of both reins and say 'whoa'
Not quite the same as a coyote jumping out from under a tarp, above a horse, like a predator would to attack! I also had a big snowy field with great traction
When there is an animal involved, you have to adjust, according to what that animal is doing, and how freaked the horse is getting, plus the ground you have to work with
Another time, we were riding down a re claimed mountain road, with mountain slopes on one side, and ground dropping off to water on the other side.There is also a natural salt lick there, so the bighorn sheep come off that mountain at times, usually when no one is around, cross the road and go to that water and salt lick.
Well, we must have caught them by surprise, as a herd of Bighorn sheep came streaming out of the trees on the mountain side, crossing the road in front of us
Carmen was okay with that, just spooked in place for a second, then stood watching them.
Suddenly she became tense, an dlooking up, I saw one sheep that must have missed where the rest went, and was on a ledge directly above us. She was not so okay with that, so I had to use some body control, got her mind back on me, and that dumb sheep found the right way down
Ask me how well it went when hubby shot a grizzly bear, and when there were still draws for them, then thought he would have his horse pack that fresh hide out, same as an elk. None of the horses were impressed, and hubby's horse left. I did not catch up to that horse, until he was right back in base camp, several river crossings later.
Early learning curve, and ridiculous expectations at that time, by hubby. !


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## BitOfJumping (May 19, 2017)

when i think of spooking, i sit back, pull and look where i wanna go.
i have anxiety but if you let that bother you its gonna get worse, the mare i was riding spooked mid jump and i almost fell, i grabbed the saddle and hoisted myself back up, as my trainer yelled "NICE SAVE!"


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