# "Just" Trails



## Reiningcatsanddogs

This journal focuses on trail riding and working with a trail trained horse. I am not yet blessed to have a 5,000 acre ranch space of my own to do with what I wish, nor to live a hundred miles away from the nearest shopping center with plenty of open riding country to use. I do however consider myself very lucky to be able to keep my horses at home, to have five horses, two of whom are above all else, suited for trails and, since I was able to retire early, to have a lot of time to spend doing what I enjoy.

I began riding at age 8 and am going to be 49 this year. Through the years, I’ve tried many things with horses; some have been dabbled in, some explored, and some, tried a few times and decided quickly it wasn’t for me. I dabbled in my youth in Western Pleasure showing, in more recent exploits, explored Western Dressage and tried arena jumping, general English riding, cutting, roping and barrel racing. What I always come back to is trails. Not because it is easy but, because there is no pinnacle, no point where you can claim a deliniated mastery, only continual learning. Every ride has the potential to become the challenge of your life.

There is always a bigger challenge to be had, something new to be done, a new obstacle that you have not seen before and ALWAYS something new to learn for BOTH horse and rider. Seek and ye shall find. Of all of the types of riding there is, trail riding requires a certain logically based, *flexible*, creative thinking that I never found in any of the other disciplines that I have tried.

Nature is a retreat, a place of ever changing order, beauty unpredictability and sometimes, danger. It is never the same place twice when it is left to its own way. 

_Warning, Mini Rant following_: I often see the terms "just a trail rider" or "recreational rider" or even a reference to recreationally used horses as "pets" thrown around in nearly a disparaging way. As if to say, that because one is not paid to ride (the dividing line between recreational and professional), it requires no special skills, conditioning, discipline or knowledge from the horse or rider. It implies, either intentionally or unintentionally, that because there is no ribbon or paycheck at the end of a ride, there can be no knowledge, experience or approach worth consideration coming from them. 

After all, if you are good at it, why not make $ doing it, right?. Some people would just rather ride their own horses than spend their time fixing other people's. The money isn't worth the cost in time and dealing with sometimes difficult people. It really can be that simple. 

Like in all disciplines, in trail riding there are those who take the time to train the details and those who do not. Craigs list is filled with ill mannered horses that are rarely ridden beyond the occasional hack out every month or so, or are too old for winning competitions, are injured or disabled and automatically labeled as "trail horses". If you have ever test ridden some of them with the aim of seriously riding trails, it quickly becomes apparent which horses have the training, physical ability and/or demeanor to really be serious trail horses and which are just not naturally cut out for it. 

However, just as a Western Pleasure rider might find it insulting to be lumped in with "peanut rollers", a saddle seat or dressage competitor might find it insulting to be lumped together with abusive training practices, people who peruse trail riding seriously (though recreationally) and who are constantly looking to improve their skills and that of their horses, also have the right to feel the same indignation when it is assumed their horses are spoiled "pets" and they are "just"____fill in the blank. (Mini rant done). 

One of the Authors who most changed me in life was a man by the name of Ralph Waldo Emmerson. He was a leader in the transcendentalist movement of the early half of the 17th century (1820-50). I wouldn’t say I am a transcendentalist but, the older I get, the more their style of wisdom is appealing. For instance:

“Every minute you remain angry, you give up 60 seconds of peace of mind”

“Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail.”

“With the past, I have nothing to do; nor with the future. I live now.”

“Unless you try to do something beyond what you have already mastered, you will never grow.”

“Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience.”

“We are by nature observers, and thereby learners. That is our permanent state.”

Transcendentalists emphasize individualism, seeking your own true nature, not giving into the pressures of society (when given the chance, choose the road less traveled), the goodness of humans in their natural state, the values of self-reliance amongst other things. 

I do part with Emerson on several issues but, without him, I never would have found Henry David Thoreau who, opened me up to the value of living simply in natural surroundings and learning from observing the natural world.

“Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after.”

“Nature and human life are as various as our several constitutions. Who shall say what prospect life offers to another?”

“Heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads.”

“Do what you love. Know your own bone; gnaw at it, bury it, unearth it, and gnaw it still.”

“I am grateful for what I am and have. My thanksgiving is perpetual.”

“The finest workers in stone are not copper or steel tools, but the gentle touches of air and water working at their leisure with a liberal allowance of time.”

“Could a greater miracle take place than for us to look through each other's eyes for an instant?”

“It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.”

Great thanks to my Freshman High School English teacher who introduced me to the philosophies and musings of both of these gentlemen. They have come in handy throughout life. They taught me to stop and smell the roses instead of always worrying about the thorns.

If you don’t like the above quotes or attitudes, you can probably stop following this journal now, as it will probably waste your time. 

This is who I am. It is how I approached raising five children, dealing with ups and downs in my life. Now, with three of the five on their own, I have a little peace and quiet, finally, getting to do what I want, when I want, for the first time since I was a child; namely, ride and make the horses I come into contact with, however briefly, better for having known me.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582

Subbing. This is going to be a fantastic journal.


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## EmberScarlet

Subbing. Wonderful. 

One of my pet peeves is when people treat me like I know nothing about horses' care. The think that, because I'm young, I don't know how much work they are. Haha, not true--I know plenty.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

*Review of Camping Outing at Pace Bend Park, Spicewood Texas.*
February 24 -25










This past weekend, before it got buggy and hot, we decided to camp out. For years, when the oldest children were young we did a lot of back country camping. The kind where you got to trek in on foot and carry all your worldly necessities on your back. Then we got the bright idea to get an RV for the sake of convenience and expediency. It has been over a decade since we have done any “real” camping. So long in fact, that my youngest, #5 at 13 years old has never been camping in the old-fashioned sense of the word, much less with horses. That finally changed this weekend!

Pace Bend is a State run Park of approximately 1368 acres. Being only 45 minutes West of Austin, it attracts large crowds especially in the summer months with boaters and cliff divers/jumpers. This time of year, mostly trail runners, hikers and mountain bikers are to be found. 

The entire time we were there, we only saw one other horse trailer. There were however many people in the park. There was a 5k run, a cycling race and a Boy Scout Jamboree. 

The park has approximately 400 "primitive" sites where equestrian camps are allowed. Primitive, meaning you have a picnic table, a fire ring, pit toilets and other than the lake, only one other spot to draw water from. If you want to get to a site that is not bordering one of the smaller roads, you have the choice to either hike in a short distance or off road it. We chose to off road it and haul the trailer up. 

There was good tree cover where we chose to camp (Mud Cove) and it was far enough from the lake that the gnats and flies were not too bad yet. 

Mistake #1: The horses were kept on a picket line, which, I realized too late, _I forgot my step stool _so the first picket line was pathetically low and saggy. Waited for Dear Husband to come to the camp after work and tighten it up that night, then move it to a higher tree the next morning. 

The horses spent the night tied short to picket keepers and longer, where the rope could slide back and fourth in the hour between rides or when we were at camp and keeping a close eye on them. Tied on a longer lead, they only tangled with a foot over once or twice in the daytime. Since we were there, usually eating our own meal and rehydrating, we were there to fix the situation, before they got themselves into a bind. 

This is the first time that these horses have been tied to a picket line and the first time they have been tied overnight. They have however been taught to tie and stand for long periods of time, wear hobbles and ground tie previously. The picketing was my biggest worry but, they did just fine.

Mistake #2: Not having camped in so long we have since given away a lot of our previous equipment, including our cold weather sleeping bags. Being cheap, I decided to not buy new stuff and just bring piles and piles of blankets along. It ended up costing us a night of peaceful sleep and was integral in the decision not to stay the second night to try to squish a bit more riding in this morning. I knew better but, talked myself into believing we hadn't become that wimpy to the cold (40 degrees F) Lesson learned, don't skimp on the important stuff!

On the first day my daughter and I got the camp set up and explored the park, getting the horses used to the sights sounds and smells. They have not been ridden off property since the fall and were a bit antsier than normal. Some of the things they took a few hours to adjust to; the tents, the vehicle traffic, some of it loud, children running about screaming, joggers with strollers, Frisbees, kites, and very odd looking speed bumps, similar to these.









No spooks or major problems, only a heightened state of alertness until they settled in. 

We took two rides that day. 

On the first ride first we went north to the tip of the park where we thought they had closed off an area to riding and then south, to a point that was blocked off due to a prescribed burn. We stuck mostly to the roads on the first ride, as we found that the horses were quite calm on the trails and much more nervous in the area with all of the people doing their thing. 

The second ride we went into the interior (inside the Grisham Trail road loop) where it is much more rocky and is a mountain biking haven. This is part of the "straddle your saddle" trail










Late Friday night is when all of the people began flooding in. By morning, the camp looked very different than the day before, so our first ride of the day was again to the north point and then the south, that we had done the previous day. This time they had a few more things to deal with. 

A pontoon boat was parked up on the beach and we passed within ten feet of it. There were about five personal water craft in bright colors bobbing on the waves as well. Then we went through the Boyscout jamboree, which was camped on both sides of the road. Fishing poles, fishing nets being cast, soccer balls, flags flying, people running every which direction added to the scene. 

My daughter made a big leap of confidence in herself and her horse when Caspian baulked and wouldn't go through the middle of the mayhem and she pushed him through anyway. It was a good ride.

Our second ride that day: A friend of mine lives only a few minutes from the park and was willing to haul two of her horses out as well as another friend of hers from Germany to ride with us that afternoon. My friend couldn't ride because she broke her ankle last week breaking up a dog fight, so it was only three of us who headed out. 

Turns out the area that I thought was a "no go" was actually just closed off to vehicle traffic. It was some of the easiest and most scenic riding we did all weekend; flat and rock free with beautiful scenery all along the shores of the coves. Very nice to do some flat out runs for long stretches. It looked to be an area of the park that was once used for camping but, was abandoned now. It had a kind of ghostly look to it. The horses didn't seem to mind and we were all having a good time of it.

Back to camp. Water the horses, grab a snack and go out for a third ride, this time back to the trails on the interior. Much, much more rocky and with some mild slope, sometimes stairs of limestone sheet rock only. 

Here is where I am going to warn anyone thinking of riding this park. The friend's horse we were riding with is so-so on rock when barefoot. She was shod, but she began showing some signs of being "ouchy" on the rocks about an hour in. A set of boots for her in retrospect, might have been a good idea. 

In spots, it looked like someone had dumped a load of rip-rap out and called it a trail, other parts were nice and smooth for running but, you had to go through the rocky trails to get to the smoother ones. Ours did fine on the rock barefoot but, thanks to mother nature (vs. anything we have really done) ours both have extra ordinarily tough feet. 

Now personal picture time....


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

More Pics...I have to get better at remembering to take them while riding!


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## egrogan

So much to love here! I can't wait to follow your journal.

First, so glad the camping trip happened and was exciting, even if you had some unexpected moments. Your daughter is lucky to have you 

Second, I am definitely guilty of contributing to this "just trail riding" stereotype because I tend to introduce myself and my horse that way. I'm not nearly as good a rider as most of the other people at my barn, and my horse is a senior citizen. I sort of downplay what we do and what we've accomplished together in the past few years, until I realize that people are actually pretty surprised that I go out and about alone on my tiny little mare. I need to give her (us) a little more credit.

Finally, if you ever find yourself up in New England, I'd love to take you to Walden Pond. It can get crowded during the tourist season, but it's beautiful to visit.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

*Funny or odd things that happened on this trip/things we need to work on:*

I mentioned there was a 5k run happening. We could see the road where the runners went past. At first there were two runners, then five, then a dozen. The first small group went past and it caught the horses’ attention. The second group passed and the horses were on alert. When the third group passed they became visibly nervous. You could almost see them bracing for whatever dangerous thing all of those people were running away from!

In the opposite reaction at one point, about fifty scouts walked by on the camp road to an open field to do some, what looked to be practicing a grid search for search and rescue. At the time DH and #5 had both horses out hand walking near the road. DH had Oliver and called me to come get him because Oliver was making him nervous trying to follow the troop to wherever they were going. I made Oliver stand and watch them. Only once he was calmed, did we then follow them for a distance before returning to camp. He was very interested in watching them from camp the entire time.









Oliver has gotten very bad about dealing with his excitement to hit the trails. He has slid backwards in his manners both while being saddled and while being mounted during his time off from trailering out. He is still fine when at home but, this weekend, he was horrible! It was like he just couldn’t contain his excitement. He wanted to go-go-go…NOW! This will be something I will be penciling time to work on during our next trip. 

He has done this before (when I put medicine/supplements in his feed), so it does not seem accidental. I don’t know if this was his idea of letting me know his thoughts on being picketed all night or maybe his way of relieving boredom? I went to feed him his pellets in the morning and found this…..











Not one drop wasted, a perfect bulls eye!

Another funny moment happened when some of the children at a family gathering were using the hammocks as a swing. The horses ignored them until they started yelling "Whoa, whoa, whoa!" at which time both of their heads shot up and they stood staring as if to say "I am not moving!".


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## LoriF

What a great journal. Thanks for sharing your adventure and I'm looking forward to reading about more.

Out of all the things you can do with horses, trail riding is what I love the best. You can do it alone, just you and your horse, or you can have company. Either way, for me, it's the most enjoyable thing. There are a lot of disciplines that you can use on the trail too. I just get so bored so quickly with the arena.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

egrogan said:


> So much to love here! I can't wait to follow your journal.
> 
> First, so glad the camping trip happened and was exciting, even if you had some unexpected moments. Your daughter is lucky to have you
> 
> Second,* I am definitely guilty of contributing to this "just trail riding" stereotype because I tend to introduce myself and my horse that way*. I'm not nearly as good a rider as most of the other people at my barn, and my horse is a senior citizen. I sort of downplay what we do and what we've accomplished together in the past few years, until I realize that people are actually pretty surprised that I go out and about alone on my tiny little mare. I need to give her (us) a little more credit.
> 
> Finally, if you ever find yourself up in New England, I'd love to take you to Walden Pond. It can get crowded during the tourist season, but it's beautiful to visit.


Sadly, so am I. Somewhere along the way I fell into the trap of thinking it is "Just" a trail ride and then I look at how many good riders on good horses have difficulties and ending up injured. It really made me take a step back and look at what we, as a team, were really accomplishing each and every ride. 

I don't tend to get up your way all that often but, I'd love to see Walden Pond and spend some time there trying to see what Thoreau saw there.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> Subbing. This is going to be a fantastic journal.


I hope it lives up to your expectations!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

EmberScarlet said:


> Subbing. Wonderful.
> 
> One of my pet peeves is when people treat me like I know nothing about horses' care. The think that, because I'm young, I don't know how much work they are. Haha, not true--I know plenty.



Don't let us old stogies get you down. One thing I have learned from raising and teaching children is they have a way of reminding you how to see the world through a fresh lens...we all need to clean off our spectacles once in a while! 






When you stop staring in wonder at the world around you, when everything is ho-hum, been there done that, IMO, its time to find a new envelope to push.

By the way, didn't mean to insult you by relating you to a child. My oldest is 28 so, anyone younger than that ends up being called a "child"!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

LoriF said:


> What a great journal. Thanks for sharing your adventure and I'm looking forward to reading about more.
> 
> Out of all the things you can do with horses, trail riding is what I love the best. You can do it alone, just you and your horse, or you can have company. Either way, for me, it's the most enjoyable thing. There are a lot of disciplines that you can use on the trail too. I just get so bored so quickly with the arena.


My horse is the one who let me know that trails were where it is at...smart horse! :biglaugh:


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## LoriF

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> My horse is the one who let me know that trails were where it is at...smart horse! :biglaugh:


I think that my horses really like it too.


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Somewhere along the way I fell into the trap of thinking it is "Just" a trail ride and then I look at how many good riders on good horses have difficulties and ending up injured. It really made me take a step back and look at what we, as a team, were really accomplishing each and every ride.


Really, honestly what I've seen in the horse world is that one of the most challenging things for riders to accomplish is going out into the unknown on "just trails" with their horses. Someone in my neck of the woods went out the other day and met some dogs that made her horse spin and lose his balance, and she lost her seat and broke her femur. My good friend who I ride with regularly (Nala's rider) also met the dogs but she and her horse are more experienced at trails so they managed the dogs safely. I have met some people who only walk leisurely on trails on bomb proof horses, and no, that isn't such a feat. But other trail riders out there are using every skill they have and every move a horse can possibly make to navigate safely, and this creates an accomplished and well rounded horse. Many people I've met show successfully but find going out on unpredictable trails with their horses and changing gaits over rough and unpredictable surfaces to be even more of a challenge.

Great journal! Love the pictures and reading about your rides.


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## Hotrodz4me

subbing 
Loved your pics. This is a first for me as I feel I am invading privacy reading but riding in Tx is something I miss. Thanks for sharing. Sorry don't know if it will let me edit or I will need to copy paste. SIL has saved her info into my parent's pc. I can't remember my PW so it is not letting me in.


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## Foxhunter

As someone who has ridden all my life there is nothing like hacking ( Trail riding) the scenery, even if you rode it regularly, is forever changing, a horse doesn't disturb the wild life as human foot falls do. 

A good trail horse is worth its weight in gold.


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## Hondo

Well, I will have to subscribe to this for certain! And being a talkative one, I'll add to that.

First, In reading the Ralph Waldo Emerson quotes, I was waiting for the quote that I used as a signature in the past. Wasn't there! As a moderator, perhaps you'll want to go back and add it?








“Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and once it has done so, he/she will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.”

Trails have been my passion since leaving the farm to live and work in suburbia some 45 years ago. Trails have been my way of temporarily returning to the natural surroundings in which I spent my youth.

My life has been consumed by trails. And now horses and trails. Surrounded by the 28,000 acre ranch I landed on with trails going everywhere, I've reached my nirvana. My Walden.

If I run out of trails on the ranch, the ranch is surrounded to the North, West, and South by more State Trust and BLM lands. To the East is Prescott National Forest with tons and tons of trails including Wilderness areas.

I spend almost as much time finding and working on the rehabilitation of lost trails as I do riding.

In this day and age, anyone that is able to have their own horse and able to ride at all can paint themselves as a very fortunate person, something that I was never able to do until the ripe old age of 72.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> Really, honestly what I've seen in the horse world is that one of the most challenging things for riders to accomplish is going out into the unknown on "just trails" with their horses. Someone in my neck of the woods went out the other day and met some dogs that made her horse spin and lose his balance, and she lost her seat and broke her femur. My good friend who I ride with regularly (Nala's rider) also met the dogs but she and her horse are more experienced at trails so they managed the dogs safely. I have met some people who only walk leisurely on trails on bomb proof horses, and no, that isn't such a feat. But other trail riders out there are using every skill they have and every move a horse can possibly make to navigate safely, and this creates an accomplished and well rounded horse. Many people I've met show successfully but find going out on unpredictable trails with their horses and changing gaits over rough and unpredictable surfaces to be even more of a challenge.
> 
> Great journal! Love the pictures and reading about your rides.


See gottatrot, you busted me! There were tons of dogs there, many not on their leashes. Travis County does have a leash law as does the park, some came charging out at us riding around the camp ground, they are also allowed on the trails, leashed but, we've already established that not everyone follows the rules....We have lots of dogs at home and a pack of feral dogs that sometimes roam our pasture and the surrounding area. Our horses are no longer afraid of them. 

Usually when I laughingly inform the dog that they don't want to get to close because my horse might stomp them, their owners are very quick to get control of their animals.

It didn't even occur to me that might be a big issue for some people. I failed to mention it in my review! Thank you for reminding me!


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## egrogan

re: dogs. Yesterday I actually turned around early while road riding because I could see a man off in the distance with several big off-leash dogs. After I read this thread, I wondered if I should have kept going to see what Izzy would do. We actually haven't encountered that before and I think she'd probably snort and side-eye a bit but stay steady if asked. I worry more about the dogs being out of control than her, and that's why I turned back.

Last winter, I had the pleasure of going hacking in Wimbeldon Park in London. There were lots of dogs in the park, which also had a leash law- but seemed that most people were walking them off-leash and had no recall to get them hooked back up quickly. My "guide" also had us ride away from the dogs rather than through them, as she was riding a little mare who had been attacked by 3 loose dogs in the park some months before (with dog owners nearby, leashes uselessly in hand). The poor mare had her back legs all ripped up even as she was trying to defend herself. She had healed sound and was still good for riding, but she got understandably anxious around loose dogs, so best to not put her in that situation when there was another option.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Well, I will have to subscribe to this for certain! And being a talkative one, I'll add to that.
> 
> First, In reading the Ralph Waldo Emerson quotes, I was waiting for the quote that I used as a signature in the past. Wasn't there! As a moderator, perhaps you'll want to go back and add it?
> 
> 
> View attachment 870865
> “Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and once it has done so, he/she will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.”
> 
> Trails have been my passion since leaving the farm to live and work in suburbia some 45 years ago. Trails have been my way of temporarily returning to the natural surroundings in which I spent my youth.
> 
> My life has been consumed by trails. And now horses and trails. Surrounded by the 28,000 acre ranch I landed on with trails going everywhere, I've reached my nirvana. My Walden.
> 
> If I run out of trails on the ranch, the ranch is surrounded to the North, West, and South by more State Trust and BLM lands. To the East is Prescott National Forest with tons and tons of trails including Wilderness areas.
> 
> I spend almost as much time finding and working on the rehabilitation of lost trails as I do riding.
> 
> In this day and age, anyone that is able to have their own horse and able to ride at all can paint themselves as a very fortunate person, something that I was never able to do until the ripe old age of 72.


Hondo, you are living my dream. My in-laws once asked us if we inherited a ton of money what we would do with it. My husband and I both responded that we would buy as much land as was prudent, he would plant 300 acres of pecans and I would start a trail business, rescue horses to re-train them for a job, then find them good trail riding homes when possible. 

I think I will leave that Emmerson quote for you Hondo! The others had less to do with horses and more to do with the way you conduct yourself in life. Which, I suppose, if you are a horseperson, would also apply to horses.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

egrogan said:


> re: dogs. Yesterday I actually turned around early while road riding because I could see a man off in the distance with several big off-leash dogs. After I read this thread, I wondered if I should have kept going to see what Izzy would do. We actually haven't encountered that before and I think she'd probably snort and side-eye a bit but stay steady if asked. I worry more about the dogs being out of control than her, and that's why I turned back.
> 
> Last winter, I had the pleasure of going hacking in Wimbeldon Park in London. There were lots of dogs in the park, which also had a leash law- but seemed that most people were walking them off-leash and had no recall to get them hooked back up quickly. My "guide" also had us ride away from the dogs rather than through them, as she was riding a little mare who had been attacked by 3 loose dogs in the park some months before (with dog owners nearby, leashes uselessly in hand). The poor mare had her back legs all ripped up even as she was trying to defend herself. She had healed sound and was still good for riding, but she got understandably anxious around loose dogs, so best to not put her in that situation when there was another option.


There are a lot of people in Texas that do not control their dogs. I once had a postman come up the drive to deliver a package while my dogs were out loose. He got out of the car and I was holding one by the collar in each hand. He said to me "You aren't originally from here are you?".

Since I hadn't said a word, I wondered how he knew. He told me "You try to control your dogs." 

Oliver and Caspian have been around dogs so much that they know which ones really mean business and which are just blowing smoke. I have seen them both charge the feral pack and run them off. It is a thing of beauty!

Most of the dogs that we met, the owner's apologized profusely (they could get slapped with a huge fine) and stated that their dogs had never seen horses before. It isn't just the socialization of the horses that is important but, dogs as well.

Riding around strange loose dogs is always a risk. I would make the suggestion, that if you don't already know how to read a dog's body language, that you find a way to learn that way you also know which ones to steer well clear of. Dogs can smell fear.....


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## carshon

We have dog issues at most of the state parks we ride in. I confess that my horses are not as "dog broke" as I would like. That being said - we have dogs but they are weiner dogs and very small. It is the large dogs that run toward the horses that we have had issues with. 

Enjoying your journal.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

carshon said:


> We have dog issues at most of the state parks we ride in. I confess that my horses are not as "dog broke" as I would like. That being said - we have dogs but they are weiner dogs and very small. It is the large dogs that run toward the horses that we have had issues with.
> 
> Enjoying your journal.


You can borrow my 135# Weimaraner or my 90# mutt.


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## EmberScarlet

I'm super excited to be the mini ''Scout'' this year at 4H Wagon Train. Camping every night, out in the open, and seven days of intense riding. This is gonna be great!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

EmberScarlet said:


> I'm super excited to be the mini ''Scout'' this year at 4H Wagon Train. Camping every night, out in the open, and seven days of intense riding. This is gonna be great!


We don't have a strong 4H presence in our area. Can you explain what the Wagon Train is? Is there a tradition or history attached to the event? Do you ride a specific trail each year? Do you have actual old wagons riding with you? It sounds like a lot of fun! How does one become a Scout for the ride? What responsibilities does it entail?


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## EmberScarlet

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> We don't have a strong 4H presence in our area. Can you explain what the Wagon Train is? Is there a tradition or history attached to the event? Do you ride a specific trail each year? Do you have actual old wagons riding with you? It sounds like a lot of fun! How does one become a Scout for the ride? What responsibilities does it entail?


4-H Wagon Train Yes! This year we're riding the Barlow Road trails. Actually wagons DO ride with us, and you can be an Outrider (horseback), a walker (on foot), or support. Scouting entails going to the trail planning camp-out, attending all meetings, and being overall ready and knowledgeable with the trails. The Scouts ride ahead, and clear away logs, check trails, and tell the wagons, riders, and walkers where to go. We generally go 9-20 miles a day. This year will have a lot of obstacles. 
When we reach camp, everyone pitches little tents, their things, and we eat dinner. In the evening, we sing songs, exchange stories, etc. 
Wagon Train is actually in deep need of more Outriders, if your interested.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Ooooh! It sounds interesting. I looked up Barlow and that is quite a ways away. 

This is one of the tough things about having your horses at home, whenever we leave for more than a day or two, someone has to mind the horses and dogs. The husband can do it to an extent but, he works full time + hours so it gets very exhausting for him quickly. My 17 year old son can do the dogs and look in on the horses, just to let us know if there is a problem, he doesn't really know the first thing about them and has no interest in learning. We tend not to take long vacations any more, only short jaunts nearby. 

My friend that owns the other horse that rode with us this weekend used to be a neighbor, now she is an hour and a half away. The neighbor girl used to do it for us (non-horsey parents), but she is away at college now. The third neighbor I would trust to do it, her husband has Alzheimer's and is not doing well. I lost all of my helpers!

I wish it was closer....We do have a couple of other members who live out that way though, maybe they would like to help?


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## EmberScarlet

Maybe! Well, keep me in touch!


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## walkinthewalk

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> You can borrow my 135# Weimaraner or my 90# mutt.
> 
> H]


135#! The senior Weimaraner I took in when my neighbors moved (along with her senior Labrador pal) weighed 125 and stood 28" at the shoulder; everyone thought she was huge I just laid her to rest last week. There are ten dogs in the pet cemetery and only five are technically mine. All ten of them rescues or taken in because their people moved to town.

Dogs were never an issue for Duke -- he knew when I dropped the reins and said "get them", he had "free rein" so-to-speak.

I've spent my life trail riding "where no man has ever gone" ----- not really but remote enough I have carried a gun at times. 

My toughest was the Arab/Saddlebred I raised from birth and laid to rest when he was 29. Sonny did his last 30 mile ride when he was 27 and showed up a couple of smart Alec kids on their young Quarter Horses; I told them it would help a lot if both they and their horses learned how to pace themselves

My Tennessee Walkers vary in ability but not willingness or heart. Duke had the best work ethic, bar none. 

Rusty is the toughest down and dirty; put him on a cliffhanger trail, just sit there and let him do his thing. No surprise he is athletic built in the same vein as my Arab/Saddlebred was.

Traffic broke - I haven't seen that come up yet. I don't mean country road traffic broke, I mean busy county road and state highway traffic broke. All of my horses but one, were and are traffic broke. 

Duke was by far the absolute most bombproof on the state highway. I once had some moron let his Jake brake off right beside Duke and I was riding bareback. All Duke did was flick an ear at him and I let go of the reins long enough to give the Loser one of those Italian two-armed/fist salutes that I know he saw in his mirror.

I had to stop real riding in 2007 and that was also when Joker (not traffic broke) was diagnosed with insulin resistance, so lessons came to a screeching halt.

In my time (I'm still 69 for a few more months) I have looked (and passed on) at "trail horses" that never saw the inside of a woods, crossed a river, or passed even one car coming up the lane to the boarding barn.

This is a GREAT thread and I only stuck my two cents in, to sub the thread


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@walkinthewalk, Dodger was a cryptoid so he grew a bit larger than usual, he stands about to my mid hip so 32-34 inches? He also has hypothyroidism and is on medication. When we got him you could see his spine and pelvis. He scares the snot out of most people but, he's a big mush. When he gets into the garbage cans because my son failed to put the lid on (one of the effects of the medication is that he is ravenous), the resultant farts are the scariest thing about him!

Buddy is a Great Dane, English bulldog mix. He is front end loaded! Most think he is a huge pitbull.

As for the traffic issue, we sometimes ride over the "mountain" and into town. Its a bump in the road kind of town not even big enough for a stoplight. Speed limit is still 45, most do 50. 

We live on the north side of the lake and there is only one road west for 30 miles until you can cross to the south side of the lake so all of the tourist and local traffic goes there. Oliver does really well so far in traffic. Lots of people hauling boats, big semi's, biker gangs loud pipes and all...I just don't trust the drivers around here enough to do it much more than to just say "Okay. We're good there". 

That one gal that was journaling here for a while who's horse was hit and killed by a drunk driver and she lost part of her leg sticks in my mind.....


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## Werecat

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> _Warning, Mini Rant following_: I often see the terms "just a trail rider" or "recreational rider" or even a reference to recreationally used horses as "pets" thrown around in nearly a disparaging way. As if to say, that because one is not paid to ride (the dividing line between recreational and professional), it requires no special skills, conditioning, discipline or knowledge from the horse or rider. It implies, either intentionally or unintentionally, that because there is no ribbon or paycheck at the end of a ride, there can be no knowledge, experience or approach worth consideration coming from them.
> 
> 
> Like in all disciplines, in trail riding there are those who take the time to train the details and those who do not. Craigs list is filled with ill mannered horses that are rarely ridden beyond the occasional hack out every month or so, or are too old for winning competitions, are injured or disabled and automatically labeled as "trail horses". If you have ever test ridden some of them with the aim of seriously riding trails, it quickly becomes apparent which horses have the training, physical ability and/or demeanor to really be serious trail horses and which are just not naturally cut out for it.


These two statements I couldn't agree more with! Love it! I mostly am "JUST" a trail rider, and honestly training my horse for all scenarios I can think of has been very rewarding. Maybe one day we'll dabble and start conditioning for endurance to add a level of competition, but as far as trail, it has been VERY rewarding. My horse with the right training probably could've gone into other things, (he was shown in AHA shows when younger, but I never really delved too much into his past) but for now, I think we both honestly truly enjoy being out on the trails, exploring different things.

A side note, I truly think some horses at their core, enjoy being out on the trail more than any other activity we ask of them, like it fulfills that same need that dogs have for walks that they just don't get during turn out or in a dog's case, being let to run in a fenced in yard. Not at all putting down showing, just a personal observation about how a horse seems during/after a good trail ride.

Looking forward to following your journey!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I very much agree. A lot of people in the last three years have said “He would be good at X. Try it.” 

What I found is he is only as good at something as much as he enjoys it. He'll do it but that spark is gone. Oliver (and Caspian) can do many things and do it quite nicely but, there is a certain shine he develops when he is doing what he loves. 

As I mentioned earlier, I hadn’t realized how much he truly missed our (previously) weekly rides away from home until last weekend. 

He could barely contain himself and I felt like a neglectful owner for not having realized how important it was to him. Doesn’t mean he is allowed to act the fool but, I can understand where it is coming from.

I mean look at that body language. This was after five hours of pretty hard T-C riding that day. All I did was gather up my helmet and stand up with my camera. He was ready to go again.


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## whisperbaby22

I, too, am in the trail horse camp. No offence to those who do other stuff, but to me it is so boring! I can't ride in a ring for more than a few minutes.


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## Hondo

There's supposed to be a different personality structure, maybe even brain structure, that causes certain people to prefer a game of ping pong over a game of tennis.

I wonder if there is something similar going on with people who prefer arena work over trails. There are other sports, motorcycles being one, where there is a clear distinction between people preferring cross country to what they call round dee round track sports, which bores them quickly.

I'd be betting that if a study was done, there would be differing personality traits in certain areas.

Or is this a no brainer I'm speaking of?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

This might help answer some of your questions Hondo. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199411/risk 

"Some scientists, like UC-Davis's Maddi and Wisconsin's Farley, concentrate on risk taking primarily as a cognitive or behavioral phenomenon. Maddi sees risk taking as an element of a larger personality dimension he calls "hardiness," which measures individuals' sense of control over their environment and their willingness to seek out challenges"

Speaking for myself personally, I like things that constantly challenge me mentally as well as physically.  I like to perceptually "multi-task". I put that in quotes because science says our brains don't really do multiple things simultaneously, just very quickly. 

Riding in an arena is a singular focus of riding the horse; you generally are not concerned that a spectator is going to randomly throw something at you at unknown periods during your ride, or that the landing spot on the other side of the jump might be full of sharp sticks. You get to go about your business in a somewhat controlled environment. 

I have ADD. It was always easier for me to pay attention to 5 different things nominally, rather than one entirely. 

We used to sit by alphabetical order in school and I got to sit in front of a mumbler. He mumbled all the time to himself during tests and it nearly drove me insane!

Trail riding is looking ahead, assessing what is coming up next, the risks involved and making a bunch of decisions. How you are going to navigate it, is it safe? What are the potential risks. At the same time, you are controlling your horse where you are at right then and there. There is a balance there. Most riding sports have that in some respect because you are after all riding an animal with his own ideas about what is going on. The added feature to trails is the high risk of the unknown, outside of the rider-horse bubble of influence. You can't be so focused on what is next that you are unaware of deer about to jump out of the brush. 

It was why I liked to play Ice Hockey over soccer. Nothing like moving up to 20 miles per hour in a 100x200 space, with ten other people, half of whom are trying to knock you silly. Lots going on there.


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## EmberScarlet

I enjoy trails over arenas, and I'm ADHD. When I'm in the arena, my brain is always somewhere else~


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## Hondo

A very riveting article. Only short pauses start to finish.

So risk takers get bored easily. That corresponds to a risk taker preferring ping pong/table tennis as there is to time to get bored as in tennis. Used to drive me crazy waiting for the opponent to stop bouncing the ball and SERVE!#$%!

So the divide between trail and arena riders sounds like risk takers that choose the unknown vs the other. Neither good, bad, better, or worse. Just different.

Article gave me a fresh perspective on my failed marriage that I had not considered before also.

And gee, "JUST" trailriders may be an evolutionarily obsolete subspecies. :eek_colorthat's a teaser to goad others to read the article


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> A very riveting article. Only short pauses start to finish.
> 
> So risk takers get bored easily. That corresponds to a risk taker preferring ping pong/table tennis as there is to time to get bored as in tennis. Used to drive me crazy waiting for the opponent to stop bouncing the ball and SERVE!#$%!
> 
> So the divide between trail and arena riders sounds like risk takers that choose the unknown vs the other. Neither good, bad, better, or worse. Just different.
> 
> Article gave me a fresh perspective on my failed marriage that I had not considered before also.
> 
> And gee, "JUST" trailriders may be an evolutionarily obsolete subspecies. :eek_colorthat's a teaser to goad others to read the article



-or another way to look at it is that risk takers have less fear of the unknown because they feel more in control of their environment. Some might call that self-confidence....or perhaps an acceptance of their own human finiteness.


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## walkinthewalk

Werecat said:


> A side note, I truly think some horses at their core, enjoy being out on the trail more than any other activity we ask of them, like it fulfills that same need that dogs have for walks that they just don't get during turn out or in a dog's case, being let to run in a fenced in yard. Not at all putting down showing, just a personal observation about how a horse seems during/after a good trail ride.
> 
> Looking forward to following your journey!


Years ago I bought a gorgeous inky blue-black Morab mare that was for sale only because she had become burned out in show ring. The day I bought her, I took her straight down to the Shenango Foot Trails that ran alongside the river. That blessed mare was sure she had found her Nirvana. She was a happy-at-peace horse that never made a mis-step.

On the other side of that coin, during the same horse search, I had looked at a registered Morgan show mare that was scared to absolute death of the rustling corn stalks, I rode her past, on her own farm. She had never seen anything but a ring and could not adjust to the real world. I passed on her and was soon led to the Morab mare, above


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> -or another way to look at it is that risk takers have less fear of the unknown because they feel more in control of their environment. Some might call that self-confidence....or perhaps an acceptance of their own human finiteness.


I read that part and liked it but was skiddish of appearing to portray myself as a trail rider being more confident of the ability to control my environment as opposed to the arena riders.

I-must-be-very-careful. This forum is not always a good place for risk taking!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I'll add another part of that article which might also apply to horses, since they also have MAO:

Researchers have long known of physiological differences between high- and low-sensation seekers. According to Zuckerman, the cortical system of a high can handle higher levels of stimulation without overloading and switching to the fight-or-flight response. Psychologist Randy Larsen, Ph.D., at the University of Michigan, has even shown that high-sensation seekers not only tolerate high stimulus but crave it as well.

Larsen calls high-sensation seekers "reducers": Their brains automatically dampen the level of incoming stimuli, leaving them with a kind of excitement deficit. (Low-sensation seekers, by contrast, tend to "augment" stimuli, and thus desire less excitement.) Why are some brains wired for excitement? Since 1974, researchers have known that the enzyme monoamine oxidase (MAO) plays a central role in regulating arousal, inhibition, and pleasure. They also found that low levels of MAO correlate with high levels of certain behaviors, including criminality, social activity, and drug abuse. When Zuckerman began testing HSS individuals, they, too, showed unusually low MAO levels.

The enzyme's precise role isn't deal It regulates levels of at least three important neurotransmitters: norepinephrine, which arouses the brain in response to stimuli; dopamine, which is involved with the sensation of pleasure in response to arousal; and serotonin, which acts as a brake on norepinephrine and inhibits arousal. It's possible that high-sensation seekers have lower base levels of norepinephrine and thus, can tolerate more stimulation before triggering serotonin's dampening effect. High-sensation seekers may also have lower levels of dopamine and are thus in a chronic state of underarousal in the brain's pleasure centers.

Such individuals may turn to drugs, like cocaine, which mimic dopamine's pleasure reaction. But they may also use intense and novel stimulation, triggering norepinephrine's arousal reaction and getting rewarded by the dopamine pleasure reaction. "What you get is a combination of tremendous arousal with tremendous pleasure," Zuckerman speculates. "And the faster that arousal reaches its peak, the more intense your pleasure." Just as important, individuals may develop a tolerance for the pleasure reaction, and thus may need ever higher levels of stimulation--of risk--to achieve the same rush.


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## Hondo

Have horses been studied on the basis of some behavioral feature compared to risk taking and MOA levels? 

Mammals being mammals, makes sense that they would.

It was also interesting to think that a species might evolve having risk takers and non-risk takers in order for the risk takers to discover what was safe and what was not safe so the surviving non-risk takers could continue the race.

Makes sense that they would both play a role in survival.


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## LoriF

All this talk about trail riding with risks, rushes, and adrenaline. I feel total peace when I'm out there riding in the woods. Things happen out there and I have no problem dealing with them, but for the most part, I feel peaceful. Not a rush.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@LoriF Peaceful. Same thing here. The article was focusing on extreme examples, people who climb cliffs with no safety gear ets. Extremes makes it easier to detect differences.

They are finding that the rush, is what brings certain types of people peace and focus. Kind of like a runners high or an athlete getting into the zone during competition. I know it gets confusing.....its almost the exact opposite of what you might think.

Someone who has a lower threshold for excitement/arousal, gets jittery, anxious, nervous, unfocused when taking a risk. Overstimulated in a sense.

Someone with a higher threshold feels calm, focused and peaceful taking that same risk.

@Hondo, no. I didn't easily come across any studies.


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## trailhorserider

LoriF said:


> All this talk about trail riding with risks, rushes, and adrenaline. I feel total peace when I'm out there riding in the woods. Things happen out there and I have no problem dealing with them, but for the most part, I feel peaceful. Not a rush.


My goal in trail riding is to feel peace and enjoy nature with my best friends, my horses. When I do feel adrenaline it is an unfortunate result of a spook or somebody's loose dog giving us a scare. But adrenaline is definitely not the goal for me, I just want a peaceful trail ride!

My biggest fear when trail riding is loose dogs. Because my green horse can be scared of them and we've had a few close encounters and I admit, I probably get more worried than the horse, but the horse definitely has the potential to spin out from under me, so loose dogs are my biggest fear. I've encountered all sorts of wildlife out on the trail but they always run FROM you. Even bears. But dogs run TOWARD you and that is hard for a green horse to deal with, a strange dog (or dogs) barreling towards them. So dogs are actually my biggest fear. And maybe mortorcycles/dirtbikes because they are so noisy. But you can usually hear those coming and get off the trail.

I am the farthest thing from a risk taker you will ever find. I don't even like driving a car! But I love horses and I love nature and trail riding lets me enjoy them both. I tell you whats addictive, is going out during the rut and calling in and getting to see a big bull elk! Or seeing a beautiful herd of deer. You take those memories with you and hope to have those experiences again. 

I guess I am "just" a trail rider because I know I don't have the skills to show. Neither do my horses. But I don't care. As long as we can trail ride safely and enjoy doing it, those are my only goals. I mean, I want to become a good rider. But I have no desire to pursue any type of competitive equestrian sport at all. Those that do, great, I admire the skill it takes. But I just want to be a safe and competent trail rider. :grin:

I don't have access to an arena either. For certain skills (like cantering) it would be nice to have an arena. But I don't have one, so I make due without. So if I'm not comfortable with how my horse is feeling out on the trail, we just don't canter. I love to canter but I would rather walk/trot than have a wreck. So I guess I limit myself a little too. But there isn't much margin for error when you are riding alone out in the woods, so I try to be safe as much as possible. Keep the dogs away from us and we'll be fine. :lol:


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## trailhorserider

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Someone who has a lower threshold for excitement/arousal, gets jittery, anxious, nervous, unfocused when taking a risk. Overstimulated in a sense.


That's me! I wish it wasn't so, but that's me alright. I want my trail rides to be like this :cowboy:unless I am on a horse I can totally trust. Then I like to do this:gallop:. But the horse I trusted to do that unfortunately passed away. I guess what I'm saying is, I get my confidence from my trust in the horse. I wish I was more confident.


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## LoriF

@Reiningcatsanddogs I suppose I am middle of the road. I don't get too flustered under pressure but if nothing is going on I enjoy it. I don't get so bored that I want to start cutting lines on a mirror either, or jump off of a cliff lol.


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## Hondo

I woke up thinking about my past and it is littered with risk taking behaviors and adventures. A study in the UK deemed vets that serviced horses and farriers as the two most dangerous occupations. I've read it "claimed" that horses are more dangerous than motorcycles.

So I'm wondering, even though I and most of us trail riders enjoy the peace and serenity of the outdoors and the trail, I'm wondering if risk taking does have something to do with our being drawn to horses. And I would include arena riders in that risk taking pursuit.

In terms of a leap into the unknown, tacking up for a trail ride often fills the bill. For the first year each trail ride started with some apprehension as in, will I make it back ok? As my confidence grew, I decided to take two.

I too get nervous if the risks seems to go above my risk taking threshold, or what I view as a reasonable calculated risk, but I'll have to admit that risks do have some appeal to me. I think it helps keep me awake.


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## egrogan

I am decidedly not a risk taker, I don't identify with that at all. Particularly with horses, I like safe and sane. I actually had an 'incident' while hacking out yesterday that involved a school bus, a spin and bolt on the pavement, and ending up in a ditch (we were both fine). I don't like those kinds of "adrenaline rushes" outside of the arena!

I immediately thought of this thread though


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@trailrider, I’m so sorry to hear that you lost your trusted horse. That is a hard thing in so many ways. Think of all of the things your horse taught you. All of the things you learned together. Carry it forward with you. It is the best way we have to honor them. 

@LoriF, I have a pretty high threshold. I’ve stayed calm in some pretty hairy situations both on the back of a horse and, even more so in regular life. As best I can tell, it comes down to feeling like I know what to do and can do it; sometimes, there is no choice, you have to do it because no one else is going to do it for you. So why get flustered?

I am easily bored, though never so much as you said, doing drugs or jumping off of cliffs. I hate social parties, PTA meetings, cruises, trips with an itinerary and tour guide. I love building things, creating something from nothing, fast moving sports, learning new things and getting lost. Failure does not scare me.

I find plenty of “normal” things to occupy my mind, if not my physical body. Still I take risks, even if it is a little thing, like once painting an entire living room purple, wondering what it would look like (this was back before virtual painting programs). Risk taking doesn't have to be something huge like bungie jumping or free climbing, it can be something as small as trying a crazy hair color or trying Rocky Mountain Oysters. It is that excitement that brings peace and satisfaction, even if it is a big fat no-go. 

The way I see things, I'm not going to live forever and if I really want to try something, there's no time like the present.

@Hondo, My husband used to call me radically impulsive. I called it being free spirited! Like this trip to Pace Bend. I decided on Tuesday that Friday morning we were going camping. I mean, why not? It wasn’t going to rain, the daytime temperatures were perfect, we had no other plans for the weekend…

DH is not a risk taker. In fact, he overthinks pretty much everything and then never figuratively, pulls the trigger. He can be a procrastinator, he calls it being well thought out!  

Here’s the thing. We’ve been married now for 30 years. It works. They key is communication, self-knowledge and honesty. He knows how he is, I know how I am and we can both admit our shortcomings and accept them as assets rather than liabilities in both ourselves AND in the other person. We are a team and we balance each other.

He tries to be a little more proactive and I try to be a little less so. PATIENCE is something I have had to work on every moment of my life because it tempers impulsiveness. Never more true than when working with children or animals, especially horses.

"The two most powerful warriors are patience and time." Leo Tolstoy


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## Hondo

egrogan said:


> I am decidedly not a risk taker, I don't identify with that at all.


But would you agree that trail riding as a pleasurable pastime is somewhat more dangerous and risky than hiking or backpacking as a way to enjoy natural surroundings?


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## egrogan

Hondo said:


> But would you agree that trail riding as a pleasurable pastime is somewhat more dangerous and risky than hiking or backpacking as a way to enjoy natural surroundings?


I'm not sure. I mean, yes, negotiating the great wide open with another thinking being who can't speak your language brings it's own challenges/risks. Being unsure of footing (is that snow or ice?), riding on uneven ground (are you going to trip on those rocks?), threading through tight paths in the woods (will I still have my kneecaps when this is over?), those things are all risky (though probably the same challenges a hiker encounters, just on their own two feet). But I think in my lifetime, I've fallen off a roughly equal number of times in an arena as outdoors- and being slammed into an arena wall when the saddle slipped off a cantering horse hurt a hell of a lot worse than falling on the soft dirt in a hayfield! I guess that's why all barns have to post that sign about horses being inherently risky.

Maybe the definition of "trail riding" matters here. I try to be precise in my language and call what I do "hacking out"- I have access to roads, fields, and woods. I do not have access to true back country wilderness like many people on Horse Forum do. If I was out in real wilderness, maybe I would label it riskier. I encounter a lot of man-made obstacles, but I don't ever encounter sheer mountain drop offs, animals that are likely going to attack, the risk of being miles away from anyone who could come help me. Does that make "hacking out" less risky than "trail riding" or "back country riding?" I don't know.

I guess we can all orient ourselves on a spectrum for a construct like "risk"- and that's why research studies don't include just one person, but rather a large, representative group! In reading that article, there were some things I could identify with (very politically/socially liberal, enjoy traveling and do so alone quite often, can't imagine having to work in an office every day) but at the same time, there were a lot of other things I couldn't relate to, particularly around my physical safety. I hate feeling "out of control"- whether that is being forced to go swimming (I HATE the water), being on amusement park rides, up at an extreme height, etc. So I'd put myself pretty low on the risk-taker scale.


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## Foxhunter

Hondo said:


> But would you agree that trail riding as a pleasurable pastime is somewhat more dangerous and risky than hiking or backpacking as a way to enjoy natural surroundings?



Nah! A horse can outrun a bear of an angry moose! :grin:


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## carshon

@Foxhunter - not sure that a horse can truly outrun a bear or an angry moose. Most horses are only good for short bursts of speed those animals are "true" predators and run and hunt to survive. A horse carrying a rider and gear is hindered and is at a serious disadvantage in that race.


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## Foxhunter

@carshon - maybe so but a horse with rider and all the gear can run faster and longer than I can even if I was buck naked! 

On the other hand the sight of that would probably frighten off the devil himself!


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## Hondo

@egrogan Got me thinking. There were of course several things I did not relate to on the risk taking article. I do not prefer drugs or a lot of alcohol and that is to me a control related issue. I do not feel in full control when my brain is not at it's best. My upbringing keeps me away from crime. Or it could be something deeper in me.

But there are several things I did relate to and my past choices describes it.

But interestingly, like you, I do not enjoy amusement park rides. I do not enjoy the fear associated with them at all. And it is likely a control thing as you mentioned. I am never at rest on a plane trip until I have landed on the return flight. I HATE to fly.

I was afraid of heights at an early age although at age 30 I walked a 12" wide beam 200 feet in the air carrying a surveying tripod. Sudden death if I fell. I shudder thinking back on that. Height is still not a thing I like. Would never become a rock climber.

But I still muse about being drawn to horses as partly a form of controlled risk taking (that i'm sometimes in control of

But even if I was drawn at first by the risks, it has now become mostly the strange relationship that forms between a horse and human. But still there's that risk........


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Yes there is always a spectrum. If you noted in the article, many of these people who did things like freestyle rock climbing also lived very clean lives otherwise. They ate healthy, avoided alcohol, exercised. They don’t want to die, they just love doing something that has the potential to be very dangerous. Same goes I think for those of us who ride trails.

The object of the game is to go do what you enjoy and come back safe and sound. The activity itself is the risk, you do what you can to be safe as possible while still perusing the activity. 

Things like wearing a helmet, training your horse, carrying a first aid kit, letting people know where you are going and when you are expecting to be back, are all things that are done to mitigate that risk. 

When I was coaching professionally (figure skating and ice hockey) and using my psych education, I had psychiatrists sending me some of their clients who were difficult to work with. All of them were children. Most were defiant, angry and headed for, or already in, trouble. Some were suicidal or had actually attempted it more than once.

Both Figure Skating and Ice Hockey are high risk sports. You cannot do them without being willing to put your pride and your body on the line. The turnaround in these kids was amazing. It linked discipline with something they enjoyed, learning to accept failure, authority and literally having to get up and try again, with high degrees of perceptual stimulation.

Humans don't do much unless they garner some benefit either physically, mentally, emotionally or morally from it.

So here is a question for all of you. Why do YOU ride trails and not do something else more controlled/safe?


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## Foxhunter

I too do not like amusement park rides because I easily get motion sickness. The odd thing is that I am fine in a boat or flying but not as a passenger on a smooth car. 

As for risk taking, I was watching some extreme skiing on YouTube, seeing those people going down sheer mountains often with an avalanche turned my stomach. On the other hand fallowing hounds across country never gave me a second of worry though sometimes afterwards I would think I had pushed my luck!


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## EmberScarlet

I think horseback riding is a lot like going 4-wheeling in the forest or on the sand dunes. Unlike other risks, which just scare me (EX. roller-coasters), 4-wheeling _and _horseback riding have the same, dangerous, but in-control feeling. Both have to do with sitting on something and steering it around a dangerous place, and both can easily kill you, but both are thrilling.


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## EmberScarlet

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> So here is a question for all of you. Why do YOU ride trails and not do something else more controlled/safe?


I ride trails, because I enjoy nature over arena. I ride trails, because I'm never going to be satisfied going in circles. I ride trails, because it makes my mind just a little sharper each time. I ride trails, because it's funner with friends. I ride trails, because it's engaging, and different.

I ride trails because I want to.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Foxhunter, My husband was a giant slalom competitor back in the day and he has always wanted to do extreme skiing. Cautious as he is...I ski but, it doesn't capture my heart, to me that is just nuts, to him it is a bucket list item.

I think we find something we like to do and constantly push our own personal boundaries to where we are just a wee bit uncomfortable but still feel some sense of control. Do that enough and it looks insane to others.

If I was pursue an English discipline it would probably be either hunting or cross country.


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## Hondo

I ride trails because I want to. Question is, why do I want to?

It's complicated.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> I ride trails because I want to. Question is, why do I want to?
> 
> It's complicated.


Yes Hondo, why do you want to? Knowing at your age that an accident could lay you up for months or permanently disable you, why are you willing to chance it? What does it give you that makes it worth the risk?

It's a crappy day out, I'm not going anywhere right now.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Yes Hondo, why do you want to? Knowing at your age that an accident could lay you up for months or permanently disable you, why are you willing to chance it?
> 
> It's a crappy day out, I'm not going anywhere right now.


I'm not going anywhere today, tomorrow, or for a few days.

The remote location I chose to occupy here on the ranch is prone to flooding during heavy rains.

I just watched the horses cross Minihaha, the normally dry wash that divides the main part of the 60 acre pasture from my abode, and the water was well up on their tummies. 6-8 inches I'd say. Quite swift and they stayed angled about 30 degrees into the current.

At the moment Hondo would be my only form of transportation out of here if I needed to. I closed the yard/pen but will likely turn them back out and I'll have no transportation.

Which begs the question, why would I choose to be in such a risky location?

Mostly solitude and the availability of well water which I pump from. But who knows what lurks in the heart of man/woman?

For the choice of trail riding, I have been musing that a huge part of it is connected with adventure. I've always since early youth been drawn to adventure. And of course for adventure to be adventure, at least a little unknown has to be included. And there is always a little risk associated with most unknown stuff, at least as related to an adventure.

Based on my life patterns it's looking like adventure of the unknown is the big draw for me. And finding a trail that has fallen into disuse since it early construction by early settlers always thrills me. It's an adventure.

Those things I think were mostly the draw. But now that I'm here, I think it is the unique horse/human relationship that keeps me here.

That's about the best answer I can give without a couch


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I like the adventure part of it too. My husband calls me "Mrs. Grizzly Adams" because I would love to strike out, build myself a cabin in the mountains, be self sustainable and live like that (with my horses of course). Its a dream.

There are two sides of me though...the side that is high strung and the side that yearns for Zen. I have to balance the two.

For me, it is about connecting with my horse and connecting with something beyond our physical presence here. It reminds me there is something much larger than a horse and a rider riding through the woods. Something much grander than my petty issues or disagreements with someone else. It is almost spiritual. 

It is humbling. To look around and know that it was all here long before me and it will still be here long after I have become a part of it again. 

I look at this fantastic creature, carrying me on his back and marvel that it is even possible that we are connected. It renews that faith that, in the grand scheme of the world as a whole, my arthritis, my frustrations, really aren’t worth getting my knickers in a knot over and wasting one moment of joy. Reminding myself of that brings me peace.


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## Hondo

Yes! Like I said, it's complicated. In addition to what I posted, I identify with every word you posted tremendously. I experience those same feelings on almost every ride.

But again, that became an added part only after I made the choice to allow myself to be drawn in to horsemanship.

So now I'll ask you, were those things you mention the first draw for you, or are they the reason you keep riding, or are they one and the same?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I was a nature kid from the get go. Always outside, always dirty faced with scraped up knees, bruises from climbing trees to look to see if the eggs in the bird's nests had hatched yet. Getting into the middle of the briars picking and eating berries...I drove my straight laced proper Euorpean mother insane. 

I have also always loved horses from the first time I saw them. They were so big beautiful, innocent (had no mal intent) and at the same time, strong and majestic. I wanted to be a horse. I was too young then to even contemplate the dangers. I used to ride my bike a couple of miles up the road and just sit in the ditch for hours, next to the fence at the side of the road and watch them and sometimes touch them. I think I was five or six at the time. 

So to answer your question, I do it now because riding a horse is the closest I can get to that state of being.


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## egrogan

@Reiningcatsanddogs- looks like we were posting at the same time. Totally relate to being a nature kid (I say a little more below). Fun fact: I have never learned how to ride a bike, not as a kid nor as an adult...I always had to get where I was going when roaming as a kid on foot...I imagined myself as Laura Ingalls Wilder's long lost sister, so a bike wasn't that important to me :wink:

I wanted to try riding outside because I was bored in the arena. I have no desire to show. Riding is the one part of my life where I let go of any ideas of having to attain perfection or be the best in the crowd. I just have a little girl love of horses and still have to pinch myself that I have one of my own.

After I got confident enough to ride outside (that's what my journal started off documenting), my mare seemed to realize she liked it a lot better too. When I tried to bring her back into the arena, she started acting like I was making her ride over a sea of horse eating sand. She made it loud and clear that she hated it in the arena, dragging herself around with the most minimal effort she could muster without falling down. Take her out after warming up in the arena, she'd move right out. So I got the message and we started almost exclusively riding out. Winters are tough though when there's ice under the snow. That keeps us stuck inside.

Also, I have a job where I spend a lot of time in front of the computer and on conference calls for long stretches, which is physically difficult for me. I'm wired for nature, not technology. I crave the fresh air, the sunshine, the breeze, the woods, the birds. I have been pleasantly surprised at how much trail riding sustains that need. Now, if I can just manage to get the horse _home _instead of boarding, I can do the conference calls while in the barn, and that will be the best compromise I can come up with!

A few pages back, @*walkinthewalk* told a good story about Morab and Morgan horses she tried out. I liked her story about the Morgan who was afraid of the cornfields...at our last boarding barn, the cornfields were our favorite places to ride! I just had to share some pictures of my Morgan mare swallowed up by the corn at its summer peak


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo, you might find this interesting if you haven't seen it before. It is called Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs.










Brief explanation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

more in depth:

http://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@egrogan, I was Laura Ingles for Halloween one year! My hair was blonde but other than that, before I got braces I looked just like the actress that played her on "Little House on the Prairie".

You just gave me an new thing for Oliver to ride through. Corn fields! Our soil is so thin here in the hills that corn doesn't do well. Thanks for the idea to both walkinthewalk and yourself.


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## whisperbaby22

Mmm, this thread has a different slant from me. I feel safer on my horse. I train them in my own way, and keep them for life, so I get to know them well. This is a different experience than many on this forum, because I have not ridden "hundreds" of horses in my life, only a few. But yes, I feel safer on my horse when out on the trail.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

whisperbaby22 said:


> Mmm, this thread has a different slant from me. I feel safer on my horse. I train them in my own way, and keep them for life, so I get to know them well. This is a different experience than many on this forum, because I have not ridden "hundreds" of horses in my life, only a few. But yes, I feel safer on my horse when out on the trail.


I've ridden lots of horses only because I never got to have my own until I was 35. Oliver and Caspian are the first two that I have gotten to train from almost scratch (halter broke). I agree with you that training them from the beginning creates a whole different understanding of them and them of you.


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## Hondo

whisperbaby22 said:


> But yes, I feel safer on my horse when out on the trail.


Safer than walking? And if the answer is yes, I can understand that. Particularly if riding alone in an area that other humans might be encountered.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hondo, you might find this interesting if you haven't seen it before. It is called Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brief explanation.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
> 
> more in depth:
> 
> Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs | Simply Psychology


Oh yes! You're taking me back 35 years ago when I read what was likely a six foot stack of various psychology books by various authors including Mazlow. All in about a six month period. That and a couple of years of psychotherapy got my wheels back solidly on the tracks where they had always been and where they remain today.

That's a mountain I feel I've climbed and have no need or desire to return to.

In connection with you're asking why one earth I got into horses at the ripe old age of 72. 

To my left sits a small toy horse I saved up for at about age 8 or 9. Adjacent to it is a spur that belonged to my maternal grandfather, given to me at about the same age.

Those two items have always been on display in view of myself as they are now, some 65 years later, give or take a year or two.

I was raised on a small farm where every inch of soil had to go into the support of our family of four plus my two paternal grandparents.

There were no riding horses anywhere in the extended area. No need as all the farms were very small.

We did have large draft horses for plowing, mowing, raking, and cutting hay, but not saddle horses. I couldn't even have a calf for 4-H or FFA much less a horse. I didn't even hope or hardly wish for a horse.

When teaching in Colorado, after making friends with Benny, the Spanish teacher, who's parents had a small ranch with 5 horses South of town, I asked, "When you gonna let me ride one of your horses?" Benny replied, " You can ride any that you can catch!"

That Saturday I went to the ranch and sat on a stump watching the horses. A few hours later they were over knocking my hat off and stuff. I slipped my belt off and carefully slipped it around Kings neck, he led up to the stump, and I got on him. Just sat around for a while and got off.

I rode King all winter. But the next year I had to leave. Plus I got married. Kids but no horses. Still had my toy horse and spur though.

Three years ago when looking for an old historical trail on the back side of this ranch which is BLM grazing allotment, I was on an ATV with my trusty trail finder helper Meka, when I encountered a rider with three dogs. Mine jumped off, the others were running around yelping. The rider was spinning circles on the horse.

I later found out the rider had the horses head pulled way around with one hand while the buttons for shocking the dogs were being frantically worked with the other hand. Those three dogs could bring down a grown cow and kill it if left unsupervised. 

So anyhow, I jumped off, got Meka back up on the ATV and a conversation ensued. Part of it was a sick calf that they had no way to get to the headquarters which we loaded up on the back of the ATV with Meka walking behind.

When I said I was looking for more of the Weaver trail, I was asked, "How would you like to ride the Weaver Trail?"

Me, "That would be a dream of a lifetime!!"

There's more, a lot more, about my stay at the ranch. But that's how I got into riding, actually at 71. It was later in the year when I was given Hondo for my 72'nd birthday after proving that horses were not to be a passing fad.

But I still don't really know why I chose horses. In fact I don't really worry about that stuff so much any more. I just do so I do.

Is there a # of characters limit on these posts??


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Went through my picture albums today and tried to find some relevant pics.

First, this is me and Oliver...









These are the other horses we own...

Bella -AQHA Mare (21 YO)









Cowboy -AQHA Gelding (12 YO)









Ghost - retired QH (30?)









And #5 and Caspian (6 Yo)


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## trailhorserider

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> So here is a question for all of you. Why do YOU ride trails and not do something else more controlled/safe?


Hmm. Because I love horses and always hope to have them in my life. And I enjoy being out in nature and seeing the wildlife. On super frustrating days, or after a fall, sometimes I will think maybe I can just ride a bicycle or hike out on the forest. But I really love horses. I don't think I could ever part with the two I have. It would break my heart. And I don't know if they would be happy staying in a pen and never going out in the world. That would be sad. So I gather up my nerves and go back out. And most of the time the rides are wonderful. And then I am extremely happy.  So I keep plugging away and try not to let my nerves get the best of me. Because a good trail ride is like heaven! 

Literally my biggest fear would be a pack of aggressive dogs. I have encountered black bears on two occasions. No problem, they just run. But I don't want something charging my horse that I can't control. I guess my biggest worry is getting dumped and badly injured.

Here is something sort of interesting though. Does anyone feel safer riding ALONE than with another person? I do. I find my green horse listens better when alone and I can pick and choose the obstacles I want to encounter and the hills I want to climb. Sometimes when you are with other people you feel pressured into doing things you aren't comfortable doing or going places you don't feel safe going. So although I enjoy the company of other people, I actually feel safer alone. Because I can control the variables better I guess.

Like someone mentioned (Hondo maybe?) there was a study somewhere that said horses are more dangerous than motorcycles. Which I find hard to believe because I wouldn't be caught dead on a motorcycle. For example, motorcycles travel faster than a horse, on harder surfaces, and are interacting with traffic. I try not to interact with much traffic while riding, try to stay on softer surfaces (for the horse's feet mainly) and generally don't ride very fast. But motorcycles are safer? Scary thought!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

trailhorserider said:


> Here is something sort of interesting though. Does anyone feel safer riding ALONE than with another person? I do. I find my green horse listens better when alone and I can pick and choose the obstacles I want to encounter and the hills I want to climb. Sometimes when you are with other people you feel pressured into doing things you aren't comfortable doing or going places you don't feel safe going. So although I enjoy the company of other people, I actually feel safer alone. Because I can control the variables better I guess



It is 6 one way, half-dozen the other for me. I like riding with certain people and no so much with some others. One of my friends has a hot seat. She has a way of getting her horse all stirred up and then they get the rest of them going. She just has one of those personalities; high energy, loud, vivacious. Love her to death but, riding with her is a challenge in patience and usually far from peaceful. I used to love riding with my trainer. For the last two years before he moved, we rode as friends and riding companions rather than student-teacher. It was great.

Most of the time I am alone riding/working with them, which is why you won’t see many pictures of me with/on the horses. I’m also camera shy. I just bought a camera today that comes with some different mounts. So maybe I can change that a bit…if I can figure out how to use the darn thing! Maybe I'll just give it to #5 and let her figure it out so she can teach me!


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## trailhorserider

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Yes Hondo, why do you want to? Knowing at your age that an accident could lay you up for months or permanently disable you, why are you willing to chance it? What does it give you that makes it worth the risk?
> 
> It's a crappy day out, I'm not going anywhere right now.


I'm not Hondo, but my riding buddy is, I think, 76 or 77. And her husband is in his 80's and still desires to ride. Physically he really can't do it anymore, but the desire is there. I think for my friend, she just really has the desire to ride and the risk is worth it for her. And she minimizes risk by having two really trust-worthy horses.



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> For me, it is about connecting with my horse and connecting with something beyond our physical presence here. It reminds me there is something much larger than a horse and a rider riding through the woods. Something much grander than my petty issues or disagreements with someone else. It is almost spiritual.


That's something I forgot to mention. I feel closest to God on a horse. It sounds corny, but it's the truth. I am not a church-goer. But I feel close to God out in nature. I even pray and thank God when I am out in nature riding. It really is a spiritual experience. Some rides aren't like that. But the really good ones are. It's like you see a herd of deer, and you thank God that you are alive to see them. :grin:



Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I agree with you that training them from the beginning creates a whole different understanding of them and them of you.


It's sort of sad but I've had the opposite experience. The horse I trained from scratch has been such a big source of frustration for me. It's not that I don't love him. I love him to death. But he doesn't really respect me like horses I have bought already trained. But I do know him inside and out, that's for sure! I don't know if we aren't a good match or if he's still maturing into himself (he's currently 6) but he gets better as time goes on, so slowly I think we are becoming a team. But it's been a slow, frustrating process. If I ever get another horse, it will be already trained. Instant gratification. The best horse I ever owned (the one I felt comfortable cantering without worry) was a BLM Mustang that I bought already trained. Who would have thought the most trust-worthy horse was formerly wild? But it's true, he was just the most honest horse ever. Lost him to colic a few years ago. :frown_color:


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## bsms

"_Why do YOU ride trails and not do something else more controlled/safe?_"

Haven't posted or ridden much in some time. The few days I've had time, the weather has been rotten. And if I'm only going to get in one ride a month, I'd as soon wait until I can ride regularly.

But this non-riding time has me reassessing my involvement with horses. I rode Mia almost anywhere, in spite of her being a much higher risk ride, because I enjoyed her company. Bandit is a much safer and saner ride. He's a good horse. But he isn't interactive the way Mia was. He's a good worker. Gets frustrated sometimes, and too much time in the corral makes the first 30 minutes...Active?...but he's a much safer horse than Mia. Business-like. Concentrates on the job. It will be two years in May. He's been very good for my riding skills and confidence. But it just isn't as much fun.

It IS fun if my wife goes riding with me, but she is working now and our schedules have resulted in our not going for a ride together in months.

And my youngest daughter has obviously lost interest. She SAYS she hasn't, but she sure finds reasons to NOT ride!

And I realize now that riding fun, for me, really was rooted in the mutual interaction between Mia and I. Not always good times, but that "_Oooohh, what are WE going to do today?_" attitude made ANY riding fun. Except for when it wasn't. But then it would be fun again.

Although my youngest won't be thrilled, I'm pretty sure I could sell Trooper to someone who would ride him regularly - and that could work out well for the new owner and Trooper both. Trooper & I have never been pals. He has obviously disliked me for years, and I've long since felt free to return the distaste. And I really don't want to spend the next 10-15 years caring for a horse who obviously does NOT care for me. He is also a darn good trail horse. But maybe a darn good trail horse for someone else...

Bandit & I get along OK. He's a good horse. But he is never going to be a very personable horse. He seems to trust my judgment some of the time, to the extent he trusts ANYONE's judgment (apart from his own). He will work hard and honest on a trail ride. He likes to get out. But we aren't "friends" - if that makes any sense.

Cowboy may always have a home with us. He'd be a good kid's horse, and he likes trail rides. He's had a hard life in many ways. At least 6 previous owners, and his time as a lesson horse was very hard on him. He can pack me fine and gives an honest and cheerful ride for my wife. I'd be scared to sell him and have him end up with someone trying to do barrel racing on him again, or push him back into being a lesson horse. If any horse deserves a 'family'...it is Cowboy.

So I'm toying with the idea of selling either Trooper or Bandit, or maybe both. If both, then I'd probably look for an Arabian or Arabian mix mare.

I trail ride because it is more interesting to me than riding in circles on level terrain. I ride, period, just RIDE, because I enjoy interaction with my horse. Or I did. Without that personal interaction, I'm not sure I enjoy riding enough to keep horses. They limit our ability to travel. They take a lot of time and effort. And I think I've come to understand that my PLEASURE in riding is based more on the companionship possible with a horse, rather than any set goal - arena or trail.

I may change my mind, of course. Bandit IS a good horse. Trooper? My youngest is likely to go to college next year a few hundred miles away...and Trooper is a lot of work for a horse who dislikes me. But we'll see.

Still, I think the answer to your question is that with the right horse, I enjoy hiking with a friend. I do enjoy time in the evenings with some relaxed horses quietly eating. But to the extent the friendship is missing, my interest has waned. The merely physical act of riding is not enough, by itself, to justify the time and expense.


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## Hondo

Yes, thinking about it, I do usually feel safer alone. I have been in situations where I was a little nervous about the ride with others and I think Hondo felt it, and that he wasn't getting the usual attention from me, and a few things didn't go well that I believe would have went better if alone.

That said, I haven't really been on any rides with others that were really laid back that much. And I was generally trying to do as they did.


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## Hondo

Just looked out my window as the horses came wandering in for a snack. A big smile reflexively crossed my face.

For me, that's where it's at. The whole enchilada. Everything else is just extras.

Gotta go outside and say my good afternoons. I still can't cross the creek to say hi. Have to wait for them.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hi BSMS, good to hear from you, sad to hear that your enthusiasm is waning. We all seem to have different requirements for the kinds of horses we click with. Whatever you decide to do, I have no doubt it will not be without a good deal of serious consideration for the horses. I know you care for all of them, even the ones you might not see eye to eye with!


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## Hondo

Inflatable vest that inflate if bucked off or fall off a horse. Maybe I need one of those.

Horses Can be More Dangerous than Motorcycles

Keven Moore on Insurance: Horseback riding even more dangerous than riding motorcycles | KyForward.com


This one calculates that statistically, horses are 20 times more dangerous than motorcycles.

Riding a horse is 20 times more dangerous than riding a motorcycle! - Straight Dope Message Board


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## bsms

The statistics are questionable. Jumping, for example, tends to be 10-80 times more dangerous than riding on the flat. Back in the late 80s, IIRC, they did a study with eventing. 86% of accidents took place during jumping. 12% took place handling horses from the ground. 1% took place during the dressage stage.

Of course, motorcycle riding also isn't as dangerous as is made out, unless you account for the type of riding. My BIL is in his 60s, has ridden motorcycles since his teens, and never been injured. 

My college room mate turned rancher has ridden horses an incredible number of miles without ever breaking a bone. No helmet, no inflatable vest. Rides deep, plans on staying on. Not too proud to grab a horn or some mane if need be.

A thread I posted in 2011:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/helmets-injuries-some-studies-long-81416/

A guy at church sold his last horse a couple of years ago. He raised them and trained them for over 50 years without breaking a single bone. He also, oddly enough, used curb bits exclusively - to include starting horses. He preferred TWHs. But he also didn't compete. No trying to turn around a barrel as fast as possible. No trying to make the horse move in a certain way.

I think trail riding is safer than arena riding because it is more in line with how a horse thinks. They understand covering ground. They don't like falling and try to keep their feet. And the large majority of my spook experiences have been in a neighborhood, on paved roads, although that is a small part of my total riding. They don't get as frustrated, I think. I've watched a number of horses wringing their tails in an arena (including my own!), but I almost never see it on a trail. And a horse who balks on a trail is more likely to be listened to than one who balks in an arena.

"_According to one Internet report, on average motorcyclists suffer an injury once every 7,000 hours of riding. By contrast, an equestrian (horseback rider) may have a serious accident once every 350 hours_."

Frankly, that is just darn silly! The idea that riders have a serious injury every 350 hours of riding is ridiculous. Heck, lots of ranchers put in that many hours on horseback in a month! It is NOT that dangerous. I'd have had a lot more serious injuries by now if it were, and I don't even ride a huge amount.


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> They are finding that the rush, is what brings certain types of people peace and focus. Kind of like a runners high or an athlete getting into the zone during competition. I know it gets confusing.....its almost the exact opposite of what you might think.
> 
> Someone who has a lower threshold for excitement/arousal, gets jittery, anxious, nervous, unfocused when taking a risk. Overstimulated in a sense.
> Someone with a higher threshold feels calm, focused and peaceful taking that same risk.


This is very interesting to me. I think I've talked in my journal about how I don't consider myself an adrenaline junkie whatsoever, and I try to avoid the feeling of overstimulation. Yet I find myself drawn to situations that can be considered dangerous, as long as the perceived risk to my own safety is tolerable. It's sort of seemed a paradox to me how I am driven to push myself into more difficult situations, knowing they will be uncomfortable at first but believing that this is how I can improve my skills and also my comfort level. But I think I am the type that needs to take those calculated risks.

Such a great topic, and it's made me think quite a bit. Why do I enjoy trails? It's definitely not just scenery. I enjoy beautiful scenery, but that's not why I ride out. Exploring, adventure, play (which many adult humans forget to practice, while adult animals naturally participate in it), those are more accurate. I find it exhilarating to go fast, and to practice honing the skills of balance and mental sharpness required to navigate the landscape. But mostly I enjoy the feel of a horse, the communication back and forth, the power and unique view of the world he shares with me. It's not as much to help me relax, because I am a very calm person. I think it's more to help me wake up, to breathe deeply, to feel alive. 

A song I heard recently had these lyrics (*One Republic* - _Counting Stars_):
"...Everything that kills me - makes me feel alive.."
Sometimes that's how I feel.



> (*BSMS*):
> The idea that riders have a serious injury every 350 hours of riding is ridiculous. Heck, lots of ranchers put in that many hours on horseback in a month! It is NOT that dangerous. I'd have had a lot more serious injuries by now if it were, and I don't even ride a huge amount.


I think there are too many variables to calculate the risk. Some people practice so little that they are at a high risk every time they go out. Others ride horses that are high risk. Others are older or fragile which puts them at a high risk for injury if they fall off. Some people don't follow safety practices which puts them at a higher risk for serious injury. Some people ride in high risk areas, or face risks that were not forseeable.
Three Injured in Skijoring Race in Durango After Low-Flying Drone Spooks Competing Horse


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## Foxhunter

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> @egrogan, I was Laura Ingles for Halloween one year! My hair was blonde but other than that, before I got braces I looked just like the actress that played her on "Little House on the Prairie".
> 
> You just gave me an new thing for Oliver to ride through. Corn fields! Our soil is so thin here in the hills that corn doesn't do well. Thanks for the idea to both walkinthewalk and yourself.


I started to write about riding through corn and then remembered that in the US corn is maze to us whereas corn is wheat, oats or barley here,

When I had taken a load of children on a day picnic ride we came back down a bridleway that had been sown with wheat. The bridlepath had not been re established. I sent the children off only to see ponies bucking, scooting forward, tails swishing and hooking off with the riders. Only when I started cantering on my mare did I realise that the heads of the wheat was tickling them in places they don't normally get tickled! 

As for yout corn, I once lost a young rider in a field of maze. Took me ages to find her!


----------



## Hondo

According to statistics found (on the internet of course!), the average U.S. driver has one accident roughly every 165,000 miles.

I have driven several times that far without an accident. My personal statistic however does not in any way disprove or bring into question the above statistic.


----------



## bsms

gottatrot said:


> ...I think there are too many variables to calculate the risk. Some people practice so little that they are at a high risk every time they go out. Others ride horses that are high risk. Others are older or fragile which puts them at a high risk for injury if they fall off. Some people don't follow safety practices which puts them at a higher risk for serious injury. Some people ride in high risk areas...





Hondo said:


> ...My personal statistic however does not in any way disprove or bring into question the above statistic.


Depends on who came up with the statistic. No study is worth reading until one first reads the method section - HOW it was done. There is a study that says horses should not carry more than 20% of their body weight. But if one reads HOW the study was done, it become irrelevant to most riding. Almost totally irrelevant when one then combines how it was done with how they interpreted their results.

The "every 350 hours" statistic comes from "Firth JL. Equestrian Injuries. In: Schneider RC, Kennedy JC, Plant ML (eds) _Sports Injuries. Mechanisms, Prevention, and Treatment_ Baltimore, Maryland: Williams & Wilkins, 1985, pp 431-449." I've never seen it, but it is obviously is grossly overstated.

Another study says: " A Cambridge University study of 1000 riding accident hospital admissions has shown:

One injury for 100 h of leisure riding
One injury for 5 h for amateur racing over jumps
One injury for 1 h of cross-country eventing"

Cited here: Spinal injuries resulting from horse riding accidents

That at least points out that some sorts of riding - jumping at a very high level, for example - involves much greater risks. But I'll be darned if I know of ANYONE who requires a hospital admission with every 100 hours of leisure riding! Heck, I'd be making 2-3 visits a year to the hospital, versus none.

This study also demonstrates the impact of jumping on injuries:

*Spinal and spinal cord injuries in horse riding: the New South Wales experience 1976-1996*

Abstract

Objectives: The objective of the present study was to determine the incidence of acute spinal cord injuries (ASCI) in all forms of horse riding in New South Wales (NSW) for the period 1976-1996. Other aims of the present study were to compare and contrast ASCI with vertebral column injuries (VCI) without neurological damage and to define appropriate safety measures in relation to spinal injury in horse-riding.

Design: A retrospective review was done of all ASCI cases (n = 32) admitted to the two acute spinal cord injury units in NSW for the cited period. A comparable review of VCI cases (n = 30) admitted to these centres for the period 1987-1995 was also undertaken.

Results: *A fall in flight was the commonest mode of injury in both groups*. Occupational and leisure riding accounted for 88% of ASCI and VCI. The incidence of ASCI is very low in those riding under the aegis of the Equestrian Federation of Australia - two cases in 21 years; and there were no cases in the Pony Club Riders or in Riding for the Disabled. The difference in the spinal damage caused by ASCI and VCI is in degree rather than kind. Associated appendicular/visceral injuries were common.

Spinal and spinal cord injuries in horse riding: the New South Wales experience 1976?1996 - Roe - 2003 - ANZ Journal of Surgery - Wiley Online Library

As a former moderator (maura) - one I still miss, who introduced me to Littauer pointed out - jumping also has very different levels of risk. A student taking lessons on a trained horse has greater risk than someone riding on the flat, but far less risk than someone pushing their horse to near supernatural performance levels in top competition or someone trying to learn jumping on their own with a horse who doesn't know the game.

"A Cambridge University study of 1000 riding accident hospital admissions has shown: One injury for 100 h of leisure riding..."

That is laughable. No sane person could take that number seriously.

*But ANY attempt to determine the average risk of riding is as meaningless as determining the average temperature in Arizona*. I've lived here off and on since 1971, but I have no idea what the average temp is in Arizona. Nor do I care. I dress based on Tucson / Gila Bend / Flagstaff. January vs July. Weather forecast, strongly adjusted based on looking out the window before I select my clothes.

Same rider, same saddle, same riding style, same environment - my risk varied enormously depending on if the saddle was paced on Mia, Bandit or Cowboy. Gila Bend, Tucson, Flagstaff. July, September, December. Look out the window. Adjust accordingly.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> This is very interesting to me. I think I've talked in my journal about how I don't consider myself an adrenaline junkie whatsoever, and I try to avoid the feeling of overstimulation. Yet I find myself drawn to situations that can be considered dangerous, as long as the perceived risk to my own safety is tolerable. It's sort of seemed a paradox to me how I am driven to push myself into more difficult situations, knowing they will be uncomfortable at first but believing that this is how I can improve my skills and also my comfort level. But I think I am the type that needs to take those calculated risks.
> 
> Such a great topic, and it's made me think quite a bit. Why do I enjoy trails? It's definitely not just scenery. I enjoy beautiful scenery, but that's not why I ride out. Exploring, adventure, play (which many adult humans forget to practice, while adult animals naturally participate in it), those are more accurate. I find it exhilarating to go fast, and to practice honing the skills of balance and mental sharpness required to navigate the landscape. But mostly I enjoy the feel of a horse, the communication back and forth, the power and unique view of the world he shares with me. It's not as much to help me relax, because I am a very calm person. I think it's more to help me wake up, to breathe deeply, to feel alive.



I think you and I would make good trail partners. I like to do the meandering stuff but, after a bit, I like to run, find some challenges and mix it up. Oliver and Caspian seem to enjoy that style of riding as well. Our property is such that it is more in tune with a slow methodical pace so when we get out, I like to cut loose more.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Foxhunter said:


> I started to write about riding through corn and then remembered that in the US corn is maze to us whereas corn is wheat, oats or barley here,
> 
> When I had taken a load of children on a day picnic ride we came back down a bridleway that had been sown with wheat. The bridlepath had not been re established. I sent the children off only to see ponies bucking, scooting forward, tails swishing and hooking off with the riders. Only when I started cantering on my mare did I realise that the heads of the wheat was tickling them in places they don't normally get tickled!
> 
> As for yout corn, I once lost a young rider in a field of maze. Took me ages to find her!


I grew up in rural Illinois, corn was everywhere! We used to play hide and seek in it (being careful not to destroy the crop of course, Farmer Emory would have had our hides!)


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Depends on who came up with the statistic. No study is worth reading until one first reads the method section - HOW it was done. There is a study that says horses should not carry more than 20% of their body weight. But if one reads HOW the study was done, it become irrelevant to most riding. Almost totally irrelevant when one then combines how it was done with how they interpreted their results.
> 
> The "every 350 hours" statistic comes from "Firth JL. Equestrian Injuries. In: Schneider RC, Kennedy JC, Plant ML (eds) _Sports Injuries. Mechanisms, Prevention, and Treatment_ Baltimore, Maryland: Williams & Wilkins, 1985, pp 431-449." I've never seen it, but it is obviously is grossly overstated.
> 
> Another study says: " A Cambridge University study of 1000 riding accident hospital admissions has shown:
> 
> One injury for 100 h of leisure riding
> One injury for 5 h for amateur racing over jumps
> One injury for 1 h of cross-country eventing"
> 
> Cited here: Spinal injuries resulting from horse riding accidents
> 
> That at least points out that some sorts of riding - jumping at a very high level, for example - involves much greater risks. But I'll be darned if I know of ANYONE who requires a hospital admission with every 100 hours of leisure riding! Heck, I'd be making 2-3 visits a year to the hospital, versus none.
> 
> This study also demonstrates the impact of jumping on injuries:
> 
> *Spinal and spinal cord injuries in horse riding: the New South Wales experience 1976-1996*
> 
> Abstract
> 
> Objectives: The objective of the present study was to determine the incidence of acute spinal cord injuries (ASCI) in all forms of horse riding in New South Wales (NSW) for the period 1976-1996. Other aims of the present study were to compare and contrast ASCI with vertebral column injuries (VCI) without neurological damage and to define appropriate safety measures in relation to spinal injury in horse-riding.
> 
> Design: A retrospective review was done of all ASCI cases (n = 32) admitted to the two acute spinal cord injury units in NSW for the cited period. A comparable review of VCI cases (n = 30) admitted to these centres for the period 1987-1995 was also undertaken.
> 
> Results: *A fall in flight was the commonest mode of injury in both groups*. Occupational and leisure riding accounted for 88% of ASCI and VCI. The incidence of ASCI is very low in those riding under the aegis of the Equestrian Federation of Australia - two cases in 21 years; and there were no cases in the Pony Club Riders or in Riding for the Disabled. The difference in the spinal damage caused by ASCI and VCI is in degree rather than kind. Associated appendicular/visceral injuries were common.
> 
> Spinal and spinal cord injuries in horse riding: the New South Wales experience 1976?1996 - Roe - 2003 - ANZ Journal of Surgery - Wiley Online Library
> 
> As a former moderator (maura) - one I still miss, who introduced me to Littauer pointed out - jumping also has very different levels of risk. A student taking lessons on a trained horse has greater risk than someone riding on the flat, but far less risk than someone pushing their horse to near supernatural performance levels in top competition or someone trying to learn jumping on their own with a horse who doesn't know the game.
> 
> "A Cambridge University study of 1000 riding accident hospital admissions has shown: One injury for 100 h of leisure riding..."
> 
> That is laughable. No sane person could take that number seriously.
> 
> *But ANY attempt to determine the average risk of riding is as meaningless as determining the average temperature in Arizona*. I've lived here off and on since 1971, but I have no idea what the average temp is in Arizona. Nor do I care. I dress based on Tucson / Gila Bend / Flagstaff. January vs July. Weather forecast, strongly adjusted based on looking out the window before I select my clothes.
> 
> Same rider, same saddle, same riding style, same environment - my risk varied enormously depending on if the saddle was paced on Mia, Bandit or Cowboy. Gila Bend, Tucson, Flagstaff. July, September, December. Look out the window. Adjust accordingly.


Another thing to consider is what is an injury? Is it your toenail falling off because your horse stepped on it? Is it having a sore coccyx because you fell off? Is it a muscle strain because you pulled something? Back pain?...some people run to the hospital for everything, some people have to be half dead.


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## Hondo

To me, the interview with the ER Dr. that's been there done that is the most telling. No hard and fast statistic there but I'd still find myself hard pressed to argue with him.


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## Foxhunter

Learning how to fall is an art and as with any art, you need to practise it! 

I am in my late 60s the other day out walking with the dogs, I tripped and fell flat on a flint track. The friends that were with me couldn't believe I had gone down so fast and not hurt myself at all. I am sure it is so ingrained in me from all the tumbles I have had over the years I knew how to save myself from injury.

Statistics vary so much they can hardly be reliable. How many people actually ride and how often have they fallen? Have they had to go to ER for major treatment? 

Watching a programme on U.K. TV the air ambulance was called out for a woman who had had a fall from her horse. I remarked to a friend, "She isn't hurt, she is just slightly winded." 
I was correct. By the time the helicopter arrived she was fine and saying, "I've never fallen off before." Had she done so then she would have known she wasn't hurt.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

It makes perfect sense that jumping is more dangerous. When you look at the rider position at take off










And then ask yourself what would you do if that horse decides, Nope, ain't happening.










Oliver has done that to me before and the only thing that honestly saved me is that I am jumping in a western saddle and don't get nearly as far forward over the front of the horse (read as, my position stinks). It was why I stopped trying to jump in the arena. He jumps much better on the trails.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Foxhunter, since you have done jumping with horses trained for it, how often does it happen that a trained horse will refuse a jump? When it does happen, how often is it due to rider error?

Agree on the practice falling part, it still smarts, you just don't do any major damage.


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## Hondo

Ouch! I have very extensive training in tuck 'n roll. I believe that has helped in my three git offs.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

*Suppling the bend:*

One of the things I noted the other day when riding was that Oliver had become resistant to bending to his left. He would do it but, it took more pressure than it should have and more pressure than the same thing to the right. Left has always been his sticky side (picking up a lead, turning etc). Before our next ride, I wanted to work on suppling him to the left. Devil is in the details!

I know all this bending stuff has been a big mess argument on the HF before but, it is something I want my personal horses to have. Why? Because I use it, paired with a hip disengagement as a mental reset button for my horse. 
If they are acting foolish, balking at something or getting jiggy, rather than needing to get rough, I use this to say “Hey! Forget that, focus on me. Let’s try this again.”. I have found they often forget what it was that they were doing before and pay better attention. 

When I was first taught this, it was supposed to be a kinder means of punishment for bad behavior than a crop. 

Like a lot of cues, the horses glean the meaning of the cues not always how you intended but, how you ended up using them. I found that as Oliver got more used to the cue, I could soften it and then soften it again, using it as more of a cue to “focus on me” than as any kind of punitive action. Anymore, when there is a problem, he not only expects me to do this but, almost (repeat, almost) seems to seek it to relieve him of his thoughts.
Another use is in the one rein stop/emergency stop and occasionally, you might find yourself in tight quarters and needing to turn 180 degrees around on the trail.

So back to basics. I am starting with a foundational exercise that he learned three years ago, before he was backed for the first time. It is a bit of a refresher course for him. It is a reminder of how to yield to soft pressure and a reminder to me, which is mostly likely why we are having to re-do this in the first place, that I don’t need to apply much pressure to get a response.

Give me a few days and I will see if I can get a video together with my new camera and post it with more explaination of the details. I am also going to start working Bella for trails, who has a very different personality and background from Oliver.

For this, Oliver is in his bosal with horse hair Mecate/McCarty reins. 









The way he was trained to the Western Hackamore (Bosal + Mecate), is the cuing rein is lifted rather than pulled or bumped. I know other trainers use it differently. This is how I was taught and it worked well for our horses, so until I encounter a horse who needs to be bumped, I will do as I was taught.

If you pull hard on one rein of the mecate, the bosal will twist sideways and the thin leather holder might snap (ask me how I know). At that point you will have lost your entire hackamore and any means of communication from the reins.

I’m going to go off a bit here about the intended and proper uses of the bosal and mecate. It is a training tool to get off on the right foot to eventually ride in a spade bit, not a control tool; it is a communication tool. It sets the starting point for lightness and softness in rein cues. The idea behind it is to teach the horse what you are saying in as gentle a use of pressure as you can. They have to be conscientiously trained and ridden to that purpose. 

Eventually (usually years and other graduating steps), that extreme lightness is transferred into a spade bit; which to some looks like a tool of torture. In untrained hands, on a horse that has not been methodically trained to the softest pressures, it CAN and WILL do a great deal of damage to the horse’s mouth. 

Bosals have become a bit of a fashion statement as of late. People buy them who have no training in how to train a horse to it. Maybe they watched a video or two or read a book but, I have found, especially in this case, that there is no substitute for having someone who has over 50 years experience using it, right there with you, showing you how to train your horse properly to it. 

I was lucky enough to have a Modern Californio Vaquero, a professional Bridle Horse trainer, teach me over a period of six years. I'm still no expert but, I think I have the basics down by now. 

I have seen where some people have stated that bosals break horse’s noses. I’m sure they can. Again, as with so many tools of riding, used improperly, by a human on a horse who does not have the solid foundation needed, yes, it can injure.

A second thing I have heard is that it does not communicate as well as bits. Maybe and maybe not. My first thought there is how much additional training was done with the horse and just as importantly, the rider, to understand the signals coming from the new means of communication? 

A horse used to riding in a bit, may have difficulty understanding the signals coming from such a different headstall. Additional training is in order. I find for most things, that if the horse is properly trained to the bosal, legs and seat, it communicates, 100% of what I need my horse to do; side passes, half passes, lead changes, speed rating, directional changes, degrees of directional changes, One step and halt, two steps back and halt, square up, just to name a few. To date, I haven't found anything I needed my horse to do in a bit, that could not be done in a Western Hackamore with foundational training.

A third thing I have seen mentioned is with a bosal, there is no overriding rider control in your hands if the horse starts acting up. True, there isn’t (again, ask me how I know that). As I mentioned earlier, it can be broken easily. The horse must come *willingly* to the rider’s request. In a bridle horse there can be no push back, no hesitation, no pulling against the hands even when scared; they have to want to do as you ask and keep their heads. Still wonder why I am always so obsessed with the way a horse’s mind works? 

Most horses are not... will not ever be, cut out to be straight up in the spade, modern bridle horses, no matter how good the training or how skilled the rider, how good the bond. Yielding their minds entirely to a human, is a bridge too far for them to cross. 

Some horses, like what I have found with Oliver, will stand 3/4 of the way across that bridge, it is as much as he can give me of his own free will. Others won’t set foot on it, still others trot right on across to the other side. Not being cut out for Bridle Horses, doesn’t make them bad horses, stupid, or the owners less of a trainer, it simply means they weren’t created by nature to be a bridle horse, any more than some horses are not jumpers, barrel horses or trail mounts. 

Oliver, despite his start up this training road, will never be a bridle horse. His mind will never totally be mine. I can live with that because it is who he is. We’ll work within the parameters we can to help him be the best horse he can be.


----------



## Avna

I'm a trail rider because I have always sought long walks or hikes in natural surroundings, with or without a horse, to find my peace of heart. I'm a trail rider because one of the biggest pleasures for me, with animals, is "doing together" rather than "training". 

For example, I have multiple dogs and I haven't "trained" them for years. I teach them as puppies to listen to me when I need them to, and parameters of acceptable behavior. Then I just live with them and do stuff with them. Yes, they have excellent recalls, I can call them off a deer chase if need be, I can put them on a down stay and when I come back they will still be there, I can take anything out of their mouths, they will heel off leash. But I didn't "train" them all that much, I just taught them to listen to me. Also I like naturally obedient breeds -- they are Australian Shepherds. Probably wouldn't have the same luck with hounds or terriers. 

When I ride in an arena, every single step my horse takes, I am guiding. It takes enormous attention on my part and on hers. I am thinking 100% of the time about my posture, my cues, how she is responding, constantly altering, improving, asking, rewarding . . . what I need to sharpen, what I should repeat until there's improvement, what I should drop right now, every fricking second. It is not so much boring as exhausting. When I'm in an arena I am *training*. It feels like work. Good work, but definitely work.

When I trail ride, I am a partner with my horse. We are communicating lightly all the time, but usually in a quite casual flowing way neither of us needs to put all our attention into. Mostly we are both looking ahead and responding to our ever-shifting environment. We are just going somewhere together. When we face challenges, we are facing them as a team. It doesn't feel like work at all. 

I don't think of trail riding as any more dangerous than riding in an arena -- you are still far from the ground on an easily panicked creature. I don't know why people find trail riding frightening. I am comfortable out in wilderness, and I like it even better accompanied by animals. There are only two things I find frightening out in the real world of nature -- men of ill-will, and getting lost. I'd much rather be on a horse if I have to face either one.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Good points Avna! 

I can see how there is a difference for you between the “training” that goes on in the arena and the “not-work-work” of riding trails. I guess for me, trails is one in the same. Nice to hear a different point of view. 

Some rides I am constantly trying to make myself better. To make the horse I am riding more responsive, softer, lighter, more attentive...it is training on the go! Other times it is just a hack out for fun. In a way, trails are my arena.


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## Foxhunter

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> @Foxhunter, since you have done jumping with horses trained for it, how often does it happen that a trained horse will refuse a jump? When it does happen, how often is it due to rider error?
> 
> Agree on the practice falling part, it still smarts, you just don't do any major damage.


It can happen for a variety of reasons, usually rider error. 

Some horses develop a really dirty stop for no real reason other than they have learnt how to do it. Sometimes that stop can be a pain issue. 

Horses that stop need to be ridden very forward, kept between hand and leg and on an even stride. If a fence is 4' in height the take off point would be 4' away from the base of the jump, if it is on even stride of 8' hen even if it is 'wrong' at the fence the max it has to stretch is and extra 4' which is nothing. 

Many the time I have had horses stale of show jumping or jump racing or not been bold enough CC - a seasons Fox Hunting soon alters their attitude towards jumping! 

One horse I had for the winter had been brought to the UK from Australia. He wasn't jumping CC at all. I hated him all winter and he went off in the spring to a dressage yard to be tuned up for the coming events when his owner came back from Oz. The people he went to said he was to fit to do dressage. When the owner took him to hos first event she found him very strong but without a thought of refusing.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Foxhunter said:


> It can happen for a variety of reasons, usually rider error.
> 
> Some horses develop a really dirty stop for no real reason other than they have learnt how to do it.


Sounds like the first horse I ever jumped! :falloff:


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## Foxhunter

Well, the old saying was,"Throw your heart over a fence and the horse will follow." If it didn't you usually went over the fence without it.


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## Avna

I also want to add that I am NOT a risk taker by nature AT ALL. I am a "highly sensitive" person who never finds an adrenalin rush exhilarating, am very easily overwhelmed and even sickened by what most people consider modest amounts of stimulation, like shopping at an indoor mall, or going to a party. I do not trail ride because it feels risky and I like that feeling. Just the opposite -- it feels soothing and makes me stupidly happy, it is a pure and primitive pleasure, like eating when you are really hungry.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Avna said:


> I also want to add that I am NOT a risk taker by nature AT ALL. I am a "highly sensitive" person who never finds an adrenalin rush exhilarating, am very easily overwhelmed and even sickened by what most people consider modest amounts of stimulation, like shopping at an indoor mall, or going to a party. I do not trail ride because it feels risky and I like that feeling. Just the opposite -- it feels soothing and makes me stupidly happy, it is a pure and primitive pleasure, like eating when you are really hungry.


That's cool. The discussion a while back isn't to imply all people who ride trails are in it for the excitement. I expected, like most things in life, different people do it for different reasons. That's why I was asking.


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## Hondo

+1 what avna said


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## Hondo

My bear trap brain still looking at safety data.

This one is saying that an equine veterinarian is the most dangerous occupation in the UK.

Risky Business: British Horse Vets Injured More Often than Firefighters, Study Shows | EQUUS Magazine

This article in TheHorse.com is long but interesting to me. They mentioned in passing that trail riding involved an added risk. In thinking about that, I do suppose it would in terms of medical availability. And particularly when riding alone, which I will continue to do.

Equine-Related Human Injuries | TheHorse.com

And here's some silliness from the CDC, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001626.htm


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Here is where I stand on the matter: 

"Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, d***ed lies and statistics.'"
- Mark Twain's Own Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review


----------



## walkinthewalk

I never over-thought trail riding - I just got on my horse and went.

I like to "smell the roses" and that is best done on a horse, IMO

Howeverrrrr, having been born wearing a no-fear t-shirt, there was nothing stopping me from safely sliding down a river embankment or a power line and digging up the other side. Yes there is a safe way to do that, then there is the stupid way that generally ends up getting the horse permanently hurt ----- I didn't see it happen but I saw the end result----

People need to ride at the level they feel comfortable with. There are a lot of people I refuse to ride with because they are either too timid orrrrrr-------they are too idiotic and will put their horse needlessly at risk.

As with anything in this life, "all things in moderation"


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## Foxhunter

In all the years I have been riding and the injuries I have encountered, hand on heart I can say that majority of those accidents could have been prevented if I hadn't of been so stupidly over confident! 

Majority of my injuries were from fooling around rather than doing something correctly and fate happening. 

What is to be will be.


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Knowing that Oliver is missing his rides out, we took one long ride yesterday all the way to the boarding stables where I first met my friend/trainer a 9 mile round trip. Sorry, no pics the terrain is pretty rough and I am still waiting on the SD card for my hands free, helmet camera. We managed to get the ride in before the rains came, temps plummeted, and made everything slick and muddy. Today is definitely an inside day.

It was a “thinking ride” so naturally I got to thinking as we rode. How much training detail is too much? By nature I am a perfectionist, at least when it comes to my own way of going. Other people, and animals, unless it is something really important, I tend to let be. At what point do you say “good enough” and just enjoy?

Is it enough for a trail horse to be able to navigate calmly through the roads and paths or do they also need to be able to have some finesse when it comes to the arena? I tend to err on the side of more training than less.

Oliver has what I have sometimes seen termed as “Body Control” or “Broke through the body”. The five areas of body control: the head and poll, the neck, the shoulder, the ribcage and the hip. Caspian has four of the five areas fairly well down, with the exception of the vertical on the poll.

It was always something I always expected a horse who was more than green to know how to do; at least on the basic levels of moving the shoulder’s, the hips, the whole barrel, neck and poll on request. This can then be taken to a whole ‘nother level where you ask the horse to do it without dipping the shoulder, making sure the legs are crossing over properly with the poll at the proper level etc. To me this last part seems more akin to the concerns of the arena than the trails. On the trail, I only want to know that if I ask for it, no matter what, it is going to be there.

Three of my horses came pre-trained and I was surprised to find with each, differing degrees of not being “broke through the body”. Bella, Cowboy and Ghost all had been “broke” and ridden for years or in the case of Bella and Ghost, decades as working/competition horses, but each of them seemed to have skipped the poll and neck control. They had shoulder control, hip control and barrel control, but it always felt stiff, tense and unforgiving without the neck and poll control to go with it. That feel came right up through the saddle and reins. None of these horses would be considered green. Without the neck and head control, none are soft or light.

This becomes glaringly true when something caused them to become tense, in Ghost’s case, a bag that blew across the trail, in Cowboy’s case riding out on a windy day, Bella did it when #5 picked up a lunge whip 50 feet away while I was riding her. The best way to describe it is to feel like the horse is bracing against your hands, even though there is still slack in the reins. Immediately, you can feel that you have lost control of their front ends, especially their heads (both mentally and physically). Your heart just sinks and you find yourself praying that nothing further comes of it. I don't like that feeling.

Oliver and Caspian on the other hand, even when they stiffen at something that is making them nervous, they remain loose through the poll, you can feel that even though they are alert, you still have control of their heads.

Oliver’s worst spook to date was when we were riding calmly along, came within inches of a Juniper bush/tree and a flock of doves/pigeons took noisy flight right at his face. He jumped about 10’ sideways, with a 45 degree turn to the left, in the air, ending up looking at the offending bush. The sideways jump was his reaction, the 45 degree turn was mine. I had pulled his head around immediately before he took off and his body followed suit. 

"Pulled" is actually a bit of a misnomer because, if he had not been prepared (as in predisposed) to give it to me in the first place, there was no way a 115 pounds of me was going to take it from him.

Had we been on the side of a cliff instead of on a nice flat trail, both of our reactions would have been bad news….but, the good news was, even in a freaked out mode, I still had control of his head! 

The rider behind us said he swore Ollie’s butt had touched the ground he jumped so hard. He’s not a bolter like Cowboy but, if he was, having that head control even in a panic, would really be a plus.

So, what I concluded as we walked back towards home yesterday was that yes, body control is important…*all* of the five parts. That sometimes going the extra mile and time in training some of this stuff is really worth it, eventually it pays off in ways that you might not think possible, even for "Just" a trail horse.


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## jimj911

I love this thread and consider trail riding to be my best outdoor therapy as well as the best training for my horses. I recently had a 5 year old OTTB at the Valley Green outside of Philadelphia who was fresh off the track in the woods for his first time. A mountain biker came sliding around a downhill turn right into my horses chest! The horse stood his ground, didnt overreact, and amazed me. I was ready for a 180 and a downhill run!

I am blessed to have recently taken possession of a 30 acre horse farm (8 stall barn where we do layups and retirements for racehorses or any type really) with my girlfriend that is surrounded with 300 acres of up and down wooded hills. We have already cut in a nice, easy hour loop and I look very much forward to adding different sections of difficult to easy hill climbs and switchbacks to aid in my gf's training as well (she is new to horses but loves it). 

People who look down on trail riding or riders are mostly too uppity to understand it or have no sense of adventure and prefer the safety of an arena. Thats ok, different strokes for different folks but to me there is nothing more exhilarating than taking a horse into the back country and being there as it learns. I once slid one hundred yards down a hilly trail that was shaded all day thus still icy (the rest of the 10 hour day was just wet melting snow) on a GREAT horse that basically just hunkered down and slid it out with me on his back adjusting and turning to avoid trees! When we got to the bottom and looked back to see 8 mules still pigtailed together and sliding on their butts it was a crazy sight! All made it through safely and I will never forget thinking "Man, nobody will believe this one!" but also learning that borium shoes should stay on even when you think spring has sprung and to read the trail ahead of me better. Being out on the trails with your horse makes you forget all your problems because you are completely in the moment and need to be to succeed. 

If you think about the relationship between human and horse started as transportation or "trail riding".


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

All very good points jimj911. From your description I got the image of an Equine avalanche of sorts! I'll bet it was a sight!


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## weeedlady

Stayed up past my bed time to catch up with this journal. Enjoying it very much. I'm just a trail rider and a pretty tame one at that. I enjoy a nice quiet, peaceful ride.

I trail ride because it feeds my soul.

like walkinth walk, I added my two cents to subscribe to this thread. Looking forward to hearing more from you.


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## Foxhunter

Trail riding in the US looks to be such fun. It looks very different to the UK where it is hard to get away from civilisation and there are always gates and more gates to open. 

We will not encounter a bear, moose or any other possible angry creature, makes it all seem very tame.


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## Avna

Foxhunter said:


> Trail riding in the US looks to be such fun. It looks very different to the UK where it is hard to get away from civilisation and there are always gates and more gates to open.
> 
> We will not encounter a bear, moose or any other possible angry creature, makes it all seem very tame.


In the majority of the US you won't find any of those either. They are limited to fairly remote areas. Would not want to give a false impression . . . the only angry creatures most riders could encounter would be dogs, or perhaps land owners.


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## Avna

Foxhunter said:


> In all the years I have been riding and the injuries I have encountered, hand on heart I can say that majority of those accidents could have been prevented if I hadn't of been so stupidly over confident!
> 
> Majority of my injuries were from fooling around rather than doing something correctly and fate happening.
> 
> What is to be will be.


Could not agree more.


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## Foxhunter

I rode up in the Rockies in Idaho, plenty of wildlife to see there. What surprised me most was how little I did see unless it was pointed out to me, my eyes needed to adjust to spotting different animals to what they were use to. 

The other thing was how prolific the Red Fox was. I spotted them with no trouble - even 10,000 feet up the mountains in Co.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Avna said:


> In the majority of the US you won't find any of those either. They are limited to fairly remote areas. Would not want to give a false impression . . . the only angry creatures most riders could encounter would be dogs, or perhaps land owners.


I think it depends where you live and ride. 

I'm not really remote per se, at least not as remote as I would like, and we have had mountain lions, wild boars, feral dog packs, coyotes among other things. A neighbor lost three chickens just last week to foxes and we have lost two small dogs and four cats to predators. 

I'm within an hour and a half of the Capital of Texas (Pop. 1.1 million) and within 10 miles of suburbia anymore. We are however within two miles of a nature preserve (which does not allow riding unfortunately). 

Even in suburbia, friends have told me they have seen the coyotes in the green belts that surround their master planned housing and heard wild boars rooting around at night. Nature is nothing if not adaptable.

Not to creep anyone out but, when we hear a report of a cat sighting, I keep a loaded shotgun with slugs at the ready just in case. That is pretty routine if you have livestock.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Here is a pic of what we think is Coyote scat we found in the horse pasture about a month ago.









It's kind of dried up so all that is left is the undigested hair.


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## Foxhunter

You are so right about Nature being adaptable. 

There are probably more foxes in cities and towns than there are in the countryside.

I had a taxi from Heathrow to my cousins, about a 15 minute drive at 5 a.m. and saw more foxes than I would if I had been out stalking deer all night. These creatures have little to no fear of humans and there have been several incidents of them entering homes and attacking babies. 

The RSPCA have set live traps and caught several to relocate to the countryside. They released about thirty near where I worked. Poor things never stood a chance as they didn't know what darkness was and made for lights which happened to be a friends farm. They just sat there as all were shot. It was lambing season and no one was prepared to take the risk.


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## egrogan

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Here is a pic of what we think is Coyote scat we found in the horse pasture about a month ago.
> View attachment 872770
> 
> 
> It's kind of dried up so all that is left is the undigested hair.


I walked out to get Isabel from her turn out paddock last week, and there was a coyote standing at the back fence line, a hundred yards or so away, watching me :shock:

When I got back to the barn, I asked BO if it was normal to see them so close during the day, and she says it's normal and this particular male hangs out at the tree line pretty often. I don't know if that made me feel better or worse! 

It was one of the few times I didn't have my phone with me to take a picture...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The coyotes don't worry me too much. They are kind of noisy and if I know they are there the horses do too. Oliver will take care of them. It's the big cats that scare the snot out of me because you can pass within feet of them and not know it is there and they will follow you, stalking until the conditions are just right. 

I don't know how well this pic is going to show up in smaller size, but there are two carved out crevices there and when we ride that trail at home we pass within feet of it. The crevices don't bother me as much as the high ledge above it, perfect for an ambush. I always watch my horse. If he says it is a no go in certain areas, I evaluate and listen.


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## Avna

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I think it depends where you live and ride.
> 
> I'm not really remote per se, at least not as remote as I would like, and we have had mountain lions, wild boars, feral dog packs, coyotes among other things. A neighbor lost three chickens just last week to foxes and we have lost two small dogs and four cats to predators.
> 
> I'm within an hour and a half of the Capital of Texas (Pop. 1.1 million) and within 10 miles of suburbia anymore. We are however within two miles of a nature preserve (which does not allow riding unfortunately).
> 
> Even in suburbia, friends have told me they have seen the coyotes in the green belts that surround their master planned housing and heard wild boars rooting around at night. Nature is nothing if not adaptable.
> 
> Not to creep anyone out but, when we hear a report of a cat sighting, I keep a loaded shotgun with slugs at the ready just in case. That is pretty routine if you have livestock.


We have every one of the animals you mention. But the chances of me seeing them out riding is still quite slim. I had my whole goat herd killed by a cat two years ago. I had two hens, thankfully rather old ones, taken probably by coyotes, a few weeks back. It's just how things happen out here -- and I live 45 minutes from the San Francisco Bay Area, home to almost 8 million. But none of the animals you mention is a threat to horses, at least full sized ones. You'll never see a cat unless you are very lucky, they are quite shy. I've seen our resident cat once, in almost forty years (there is always only one, they patrol territories), although I have chased it off five or six times, and I've seen its eyes in the dark, reflecting my flashlight beam. You don't ever hear them, they are cats. We don't have bear, elk, moose, wolves, or anything of that nature. Although there's plenty of black bears in the Sierras, which are 4 hours east of me. Not really looking forward to Brookie meeting a bear!


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## egrogan

I just read this fascinating article about the urban big cats of LA:
Lions of Los Angeles - The New Yorker


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Avna said:


> We have every one of the animals you mention. But the chances of me seeing them out riding is still quite slim. I had my whole goat herd killed by a cat two years ago. I had two hens, thankfully rather old ones, taken probably by coyotes, a few weeks back. It's just how things happen out here -- and I live 45 minutes from the San Francisco Bay Area, home to almost 8 million. But none of the animals you mention is a threat to horses, at least full sized ones. You'll never see a cat unless you are very lucky, they are quite shy. I've seen our resident cat once, in almost forty years (there is always only one, they patrol territories), although I have chased it off five or six times, and I've seen its eyes in the dark, reflecting my flashlight beam. You don't ever hear them, they are cats. We don't have bear, elk, moose, wolves, or anything of that nature. Although there's plenty of black bears in the Sierras, which are 4 hours east of me. Not really looking forward to Brookie meeting a bear!


We didn't see the cats for years until we hit our extreme long lasting drought a few years back. All the grass went dormant and the deer and rabbits started to die off. The cats were coming down out of the preserve within a year or two to hunt in areas where there was still some prey to be had (people feed deer here). 

We had an mountain lion attack take place one year when we were in a park in Colorado. On a 10 year old who was with a large group on a frequented trail; the boy died. It hit rather close to home for us since we were there.

There was another a few years back in Big Bend National park where a 6 year old was attacked while walking near the lodge with his family. The father fought off the cat with a pocket knife. 

It isn't so much a fear for the safety of the horses, though that is a consideration as well since #5 rides a small horse, it is more for the humans involved. You don't want them hanging around on your land with small children around.


It is just something to keep an eye on.


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## Avna

Yes, the cat is one reason I have Aussies not chihuahuas. I don't have children at home any more ... I do think about it. I was going to get a mini to be a pasture companion for Brooke but went with a 1200 lb Paint mare instead. Just too much cat around.


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## Avna

The dogs keep most of the predators at a distance from my house so I don't see them much, but one time I was riding my bike on a campus bike path through the cow pastures, up a long long grassy hill in the ocean fog, and I looked to the side and saw a coyote trotting along beside me. Maybe 15 feet away, keeping up the pace like a dog. He went all the way up the hill with me and then we parted ways when I came to a road and buildings. He was completely silent, like many wild things.


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## whisperbaby22

Didn't read the article, but yes here in LA there is a raging debate about the cougars. I've only seen one once, my horse was acting squirrly, and I just happened to look through the tall grass at the right angle and saw her there staring at me. Just for one instant, then she was again concealed in the grass.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I'm going to try to keep this apolitical in keeping with the forum rules. 

Wildlife is a part of living here, you know where you are, you know what you are getting yourself into when you move here....or should I say some of us do? There are poisonous snakes, rats, mice, coyotes, boar and yes, big cats. 

They just built a 5,000 home (when completed) master planned community less than a mile from us. Beautiful Hill Country Views! The billboard says. Yeah, as long as you aren't overlooking the community itself which is rolling hills of rooftops. 

Until then, most in this community had homes on 5-20 acre lots mixed in with large ranches. Mostly custom built homes, built in the 1970's and early eighties and renovated in a reasonable way by subsequent owners. The difference from what is coming out here now, before, most of the homes can't be seen from the road and blended into the hills with the occasional outlier. Trees were only removed as far as was needed to build the house, driveway and maybe a barn, shed etc.

These new "developments" are destroying the exact thing people are moving out here to find. I'm not saying they shouldn't build here, only that they need to find a better way to do it that achieves balance between nature and humans.

We intentionally did not buy on the south side because it looks like this....










VS. our view...













I lived through the same thing back years ago when the little town I grew up near, exploded with growth. It made me sad then and it makes me sad now.


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## Avna

Welcome to Calif-- oh, Texas. 

Where I grew up, in what was once the Santa Clara Valley, our house backed onto a hay field which if you crossed, you'd come to a double row of ancient olive trees, planted by the Spanish missionaries in the 18th century, to walk or ride in the shade from mission to mission -- hundreds of miles in length. There was a spring, coming out of a stone basin, where they had planted a fig tree, which now was so large you could stand next to the spring and it was as if you were in a large room, made of fig branches that wept to the ground. Dark and cool no matter what time of year. 

The town was about 5000 people, maybe. Now it's about 75,000. 

And that is exactly why I hate California.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

This is a bit of a rant and a bit of melancholy, the above post re: development got me going along with a week of dreary weather. 

Somedays I feel really, really old and old-fashioned, out of date and out of touch with my generation, my socio-economic class and even my gender. 

I hate shopping, buy only what I need, for as little as possible. I love hand me downs. Brands don’t impress me. My shoe collection has more work boots in it than shoes fit for going to my daughter’s spring concert. The last time I had my "nails done" was the year 2000 for a wedding. I've never had a pedicure or visited a spa. 

I don’t care if I live on the good side of town or the trashy area. What matters is that I have my privacy, some land, my horses and a roof over my head; that my life is not being lived in a fish bowl. 

Didn’t get a smart phone until my old “dumb phone” got left on the center console of my truck when I was out trail riding and my drink cup sweated water into a pool, shorting it out. If that hadn't happened I would have still had it and been happy with it. I still haven’t ever used the new one to get on line and most often forget to take it with me. I have never used it at the dinner table. I think it is just plain rude. 

When my kids turn 15 they all need to get a paying job and learn to balance school, work and extra curricular activities. They start paying some of their own expenses at that point. We take care of needs, they take care of "wants".

I insist that our family (those still at home obviously) eats dinner together at least five nights a week and I cook namely from scratch. We eat pre-made food, once every two weeks give or take, go out to eat at the restaurant only once every other month. I grow and keep a garden and give some of the extras that I don’t can, away to neighbors who don’t have gardens. Some of them give us extra meat they hunted. I know all of my neighbors names and they know us. We still all get together once a year for a shindig and actually like each other!

I’ve owned and driven the same truck for going on 15 years. It breaks we fix it, mostly ourselves. As long as it can still haul what needs hauling, it doesn’t matter that my horse ate the leather driver’s seat three years ago, that there are scratches all over from off roading or, that it has over 200,000 miles on it. It still runs. Good enough.

The internet is cool because I can learn new things from it, just like I used to spend hours every day at the library as a kid, picking random books off shelves…everything from medical and legal books to farming and geology. I do have an e-reader, only because I read so much my husband complained about the bill from Amazon. This keeps costs down. I still prefer a physical book that I can keep in my own library. 

I still don’t have, nor do I desire a facebook account. I don’t tweet, snap or post on any other websites than here and it took me quite a while to start a blog/journal here because I am pretty boring. Who really gives a rip what I think or do anyway? Generally, only those people that know me, face to face.

I still prefer a phone call over texting…as I have tried to explain to my older children, when a texting conversation needs more than three back and forths, pick up the fricking phone and call! 

I still have good photos developed and keep them in a physical photo album. I still only know how to use one television remote and have no idea nor desire to connect the internet to the television. 

I still build and fix things with my own hands the old fashioned way and find far more satisfaction from that than having someone else do it for me. I’d rather have a house that needs some sweat to get it where I want it rather than buying new. New to me feels like it someone else’s. It doesn’t fit me.

I don’t care if my neighbors wants to paint their house pink, not my business. I do care though if one of them needs help. 

Anyway, since it is another “inside” day here and I now sound like a curmudgeon of the highest order, anyone else out there that feels a disconnect between their peers and the way they choose to live?


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## Foxhunter

Welcome to the UK! 

Development is rife here and when you get townies moving into the countryside they think it is all idealic and peaceful. They moan about the church bells being rung on a Sunday, they complain about old Mr and Mrs Jones having chickens because the rooster starts crowing at the crack of dawn. They moan when a flock of sheep is being moved along the road, grizzle when they get stuck behind a trailer on a single track road. 

Oh boy, have I some tales about farmers getting revenge! 

I was watching th devastation of forest fires in various parts of the US. Frightening to say the least yet, of you build houses in a forest it is part of the gamble you take should there be a fire. 

Here, housing estates are often built on flood plains - then they wonder why they get flooded.


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## Foxhunter

One farmer sold a few acres for building, most of the houses were bought by retired people. They complained about everything, the cows grazing in the surrounding fields smelt, they also had flies around them. They moaned when the farmer was running the corn driers after a wet harvest even though he turned them off at night. So it went on, it was a private war. The farmer never broke the law but he let them know the countryside wasn't all roses! (Especially when he spread muck on the fields next to the houses!) 

I hadn't seen him for a while and when I did I asked how things were going. He just smiled and told me that he had rented out the fields all around the estate to hold a pop festival. He had too! That was way back late 60s or early 70s. He said it would be an annual event unless they stopped complaining. 
They stopped.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

There were a couple of times I have contemplated taking a ride through the development on Oliver and leave a few road apples as a calling card. Tax $ pay for the roads through there so....its just a vindictive thought. Not very neighborly of me.


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## whisperbaby22

I, too, am in the middle of a huge development situation. It was kind of a back water place when I moved here with a lot of open land and to the west was miles of dairy. So I've kind of seen what happens when an area changes so rapidly. $500,000 mc mansions on tiny lots is the norm, and one of these places had a huge scandal when methane started seeping into the houses - well, pal, a few months ago it was knee deep in dairy. Another time somebody digging a pool dug up a bunch of old cow bones and hide.


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## Foxhunter

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> There were a couple of times I have contemplated taking a ride through the development on Oliver and leave a few road apples as a calling card. Tax $ pay for the roads through there so....its just a vindictive thought. Not very neighborly of me.


At one time people would have been out with a shovel to pick them up and put them around their plants!


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## Foxhunter

Reining, I think that we are of the same ilk. I admit an addiction to the Internet, but my mobile phone is rarely used. I carry it when I am out walking but often it is left in the car - I am certainly never constantly checking it or going on line. 

As for meals, I cook, I eat at a table not in front of the TV (which hasn't been on for a week at least!) 

My sister is the same except she does watch more TV. Guess we are old fashioned - but proud of it.


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## stevenson

california .. born and raised. It used to be small town so central valley. Now it is big, spread all over. It is a very political hot bed of a mess. it is full of cultural diversity.
There are still rural neighborhoods.  I laugh every time they allow a tract of homes to built near a dairy. Never fails. A business near me put a up a billboard when a housing tract was going.. THIS is an AGRICULTURE business. It is loud or noisy morning and night. There were two signs. People still built. The business is still there. We are considering leaving when hubby retires. I do not like snow, humidity, or heat. I would not want to live where tornadoes are to be expected. 
There is still open areas around my place to ride, but it is full of dirt bikes and people target shooting. The horse trails are sad, just along the river. We can trailer to mountains for a day ride, or to the beach .


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## Avna

stevenson said:


> california .. born and raised. It used to be small town so central valley. Now it is big, spread all over. It is a very political hot bed of a mess. it is full of cultural diversity.
> There are still rural neighborhoods. I laugh every time they allow a tract of homes to built near a dairy. Never fails. A business near me put a up a billboard when a housing tract was going.. THIS is an AGRICULTURE business. It is loud or noisy morning and night. There were two signs. People still built. The business is still there. We are considering leaving when hubby retires. I do not like snow, humidity, or heat. I would not want to live where tornadoes are to be expected.
> There is still open areas around my place to ride, but it is full of dirt bikes and people target shooting. The horse trails are sad, just along the river. We can trailer to mountains for a day ride, or to the beach .


We are definitely moving from California. We seriously considered western Oregon (where almost everyone I know has moved), but when my daughter settled in western Massachusetts that decided things. I am NOT living the rest of my life 3000 miles from my only child, with whom we both are very close. Yes, snow, but everything else is a plus -- quiet, historic, stable population, green in every sense of the term, and compared to here, awesomely cheap. We could sell our little house perched on a few acres of steep forest land here and buy a turnkey horse estate there, if we chose. 

Tired of being in constant mourning for the California I once knew.


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## whisperbaby22

California is an interesting place because of it's history. The early pioneers considered it a paradise after crossing the endless prairies. It seems everybody wants to come here, is spite of the earthquake danger. All you have to do is look at all of our mountains to see that. Yes it is hard in some ways because of the surging population, but somehow I manage to have a good life even though I live in the middle of a huge city.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Again, keeping it apolitical, I highly suspect that I am of a different political ilk from both of you Californians (I don't fit in any box in that regard) but, that doesn't mean we can't share similar goals, we just differ in how we think it should be accomplished.

I have always loved the land from the time I was a little girl. Nothing gave me more satisfaction than wandering as far as I could through the forests and fields. It was the one place where I could be alone with my own thoughts instead of people telling me what I _should_ be thinking.

At times, it concerned my mother because I never wanted to come inside and would wander far away but, lucky for me, looking back now, my father who was the son of a dust bowl/depression era farmer and of Maternal Native American Heritage, understood me (my father was 45 when I was born).

Things haven’t changed that much in all these years. I still love the land. There is just something about having your hands in the dirt and breaking an honest day’s sweat that is more satisfying than anything else I have done. 
DH grew up in the burbs and for my birthday after we first bought the house in Texas, he built me a deer proof garden. 

He selected a few juniper/cedar trees, cut them down for posts, dug the holes, set them in cement, put up the fencing and pieced together massive gates out of bull fencing and branches. I remember well the day he started the project because he came up to the house and exclaimed “Everyone should have to do something like this at least once in their lives!” he was all smiles and pride. I asked him “do what?”. He replied “Make something out of nothing.” My suburban boy (I have known him since we were three) had finally turned the corner and understood a part of me that he had always accepted but, never really understood before. 

A few years ago, one of my sons was stationed with the USAF in Albuquerque, NM. We drove out to see him and his family on several occasions and the drive always made me a bit sad, angry and fearful for our future.

So many little rural towns in Texas that were once vibrant hubs of agriculture, are dying along with that way of life. I saw it happening back in Illinois growing up.

I went to school with a lot of kids from large farm families and so many of them, even back then, wanted to grow up and be anything except a farmer. My eyes would always get wide and I would try to talk them out of leaving, because being a farmer was exactly what I wanted to be; my mother pushed me as far away from that as she could. Farming/ranching simply wasn’t a life due any respect in society. She wanted me to be a doctor, a lawyer, the wife of a Senator, anything but a simple farmer’s wife. Which, ironically, is a misnomer since a farmer's wife is every bit as much of a farmer as her husband!

Derogatory terms like hay seed, plow-f*** and red neck, alluded to those that pursued that life as, uneducated, illiterate, unsophisticated, know-nothings who didn’t understand the way the world worked. Certainly, not something a parent would dream for their child to become. I never understood why I couldn’t be both educated and a farmer (if any of you watch the series Heartland, I was the equivalent of Mallory, mouth and all)….I knew plenty of them and those that weren't educated imparted such wisdom, such naked truth that it was an education in and of itself. They were very smart, just in a different way than people like my mother valued.

My paternal grandfather lost most of the farm when he had to sell off the land piece by piece to pay taxes during the Great Depression. He died of sepsis/gangrene after stepping on a pitchfork in the barn in 1959. They sold more land during WWII when all of the boys left for war. By 1960 all that was left was the farm house on an acre of land and the town had expanded to surround it with the post war housing boom.

There is something special about a rural way of life that I think can go a long way to balancing out some of the problems we face in society. There is a certain simplicity to it. A real necessity to weeding out the differences between a “want” and a “need”. I’ve tried to instill that in my own children. You need clothing but, do you really need a thirty-dollar t-shirt when one from Wally-mart for $15 accomplishes the same task? Take that $15 dollars you would have spent on the shirt and put it away for retirement or towards a down payment on a house or...? Better yet, go to Goodwill, buy one for $3 and put $27 away. You can get what you need, give some to charity and save for your future all at the same time.

We met a 31-year-old in a local bar one night on Valentine's day. We got to talking most of the night about politics (his choice of topic, not ours). It wasn’t until the night was coming to a close that the real understanding of his strong views came to light. Apparently, back when he was in his early-20’s a bill was signed here in Texas that if you were caught driving without insurance, you lost your license for six years and had to pay heavy fines as well as reparations if you were in an accident.

This 31 year old worked at a grocery store and told us flat out had it not been for a particular political party that his whole life would have been different; in essence he was poor seven years hence, because he caused an accident while driving without insurance and it was all because of one political party. 

His view is that he is "poor" (poor is in quotes because he smokes a pack a day, which is $70 every 10 days and was in a bar drinking expensive beer), not because he chose to drive without insurance rather than taking a bus, riding a bike or catching a ride with a friend. Not because he caused someone else to lose their ability to get to work, totaled their car and sent them to the hospital. Not because he didn’t start taking $200 a semester class at the County College when he graduated high school, which giving up smoking would have more than paid for (there is even financial aid available for county classes)…..my husband and I left his company, shaking our heads. 

Having raised our own children to make their own way by 18, we wondered where things had gone wrong with him and it had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with perspective. 

We wondered how differently his life would be right then if instead of deflecting the blame he just would have taken responsibility for a dumb mistake, swallowed his pride, took his medicine and pursued a way forward instead of looking back. 

The guy was stuck in his resentment and would probably live there the rest of his life because he was choosing to be. It made me sad that he was so stuck there now he couldn’t, no, wouldn't see all of the opportunities he still had available to him to make his life better. Trying to point it out to him resulted in more resentment. He was happy being miserable. 

On a farm when something goes wrong, when your parents tell you to make sure the lid on the garbage cans are secure to keep the critters out or to make sure to close the gate so the horses don't get out and you don't do that and you have a mess on your hands, its not your parent’s fault. You learn that early on. Taking responsibility for your own choices, your own mistakes is something you are raised with. When you make a bad choice, you suck it up, take the ear chewing you get, vow to do better the next time and move on. This used to be something that everyone knew as common sense. We lost that somewhere. 

I have the same feeling for keeping things "green". Out of respect for the land that feeds you, that earns you an income, that provides you pleasure, you do what you can to preserve it as best you can. Doing otherwise is shooting yourself in the foot. Biting the hand that feeds you is the opposite of common sense.

Here is the difference where I probably part ways with some of you...that is a perspective; my perspective. Just like that young man we met in the bar, perspective can make all of the difference. My perspective might be different if I was faced with having to put food on the table through the most efficient use of the land and no other source of income. When I see taxes going up, the money I am getting in the market for my product going down and then someone comes in from a pencil pushing agency and says I have to do things in a way that is going to raise my costs further when I am barely making ends meet now...yes. Perspective matters.

It is not all that different than my understanding of some people seeing horses as tools...it is their livelihood, how they put a roof over their heads and food on the table for their children. Again, it comes down to recognizing the difference between a want vs. need. My perspective in dealing with horses is focused on an ideal because my horses are a want, rather than a need. 

For me as a hobby farmer, to tell a real farmer/rancher they shouldn't do things this way or that way because it isn't green enough or sustainable is something done from a perspective that is less than fully informed. Science, idealism and reality sometimes part ways.

That is where I have a problem with people who run around telling others what vehicle they should be driving and then try to tax the snot out of those who do not comply; quite often because a smart car doesn't fit into their need to do things in order to put food on the table. That same view bleeds into many areas of life. What is a priority for you may not fit into the way other people either want to or need to live their lives.

So, just like that young man from the bar, I try to share my perspective and listen to theirs, see where there is common sense being applied and where it is not, and go from there. Some things just are how they are, even though we wish they were otherwise.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

And there is this...


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## Avna

@Reiningcatsanddogs, I don't think you and I are all that far apart. I was partly raised by my gramma, who grew up on a dairy farm, married a dairy farmer, and only left farming to follow my parents out west in her 50's. She never really 'left' farming, nor her passion for growing and gleaning her own food. She taught me how to clean and stuff pig intestines for sausage, how to butcher rabbits, how to bake bread without a recipe, how to sew, how to cook ... my mother wasn't interested in any of that. The two of us hunted wild mushrooms, cut and dried apricots, shucked and shelled walnuts, and a hundred other things. 

My husband and I hand cleared the land for our house, I taught myself drafting and drew the plans and pulled the permits, and we built the whole house ourselves with the help of a couple of friends. I raised goats, chickens, geese, ducks, sheep, and now a horse. I'm definitely a hobbyist not a farmer, I don't have any good land -- it is unaffordable here, was even thirty years ago when we bought. 

I have lived and worked on real farms and have friends who are real farmers. One raises sheep on a square mile of Saskatchewan. She's what you would call "green" -- she works with the seasons and the land and the natural rhythms of the sheep. Her sheep are never under a roof except for shearing time. She calls herself, not a sheep farmer, but a grass farmer -- the grass sustains the sheep, the sheep sustain her. 

What I mean by green in western Mass, is that, for example, wetlands even on private property are protected from development. Wetlands are a key part of the biome, and without them many wild things would not be able to exist. I believe that God wishes us to be stewards of the land, not despoilers. Stewardship implies the boss will show up eventually, and assess how we've been doing with what was given us to care for. 

Another example: there are big tax breaks in MA for keeping land in agriculture, damping the urge to divide every piece of flat land into half acre lots and putting a big fat stupid house on each one. We're actively shopping for land there, and if you can see on google earth that the acreage is surrounded by that kind of development we never look at it again. Those people make horrible neighbors. 

We are not old-fashioned in the sense of wishing the culture had stayed frozen in 1937, when most people lived on farms and had no choice to do otherwise. I myself believe that humanity's run is winding to a close, because we cannot live together in peace nor keep ourselves from turning nature into garbage at every turn. I'm a pessimist, and as they say, pessimists are far more often right, while optimists are far more often happy.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Avna, I agree that we are not so far apart at least on that. 

We (as a country) just need to stop swallowing the demonization of the "other side" we are being fed, set that crap aside, stop pointing fingers, judge people as individuals and talk amongst our selves. Most importantly, really LISTEN to each other. 

I also agree with you that not so much humanity but, civilization, as we have come to know it, is running it's course.

I think she left the forum before you joined but, there was a member that I am still friends with in Australia that built her own home using hay bales and did the work along with her husband. It has turned out beautifully…..
Ah, someday! 

As you might guess she and I are on different end of multiple issues and yet we can have a good friendship even when talking of politics or (gasp) religion. IMO this is where we need to start, with our friends, our neighbors, our families. If we can't speak and listen to those closest to us that might disagree, we are all doomed. Anyway, I'm coming way too close to skirting that line of being political so I'll shut up now.


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## Foxhunter

the second day I was in Idaho was Independence Day and all gathered at the fore station for breakfast. All that I met were farmers/ranchers. They were perplexed as to why I wanted to stay away from the tourist spots. I just told them I wanted to meet the real people who kept a country alive. 
It didn't take them long to realise that I knew what it was like to have dirt under my fingernails and were only to pleased to answer my questions about life there and compare with the farming life here. 

My mother spent her early years on a small holding before moving to the Island. Dad started life in a city but was young when they moved here. Both loved the countryside. 
I dislike cities and avoid them like the plague. I think I have been to London twice in the last forty years! Once was for a wedding the last to go see War Horse. I felt really dirty on my return amd jumped into the shower as soon as I could yet I could be out lambing/foaling come in filthy and certainly smelly with the sheep, yet not notice it. 

There is nothing like sitting down to a meal knowing that all on your plate bar the salt, has been home grown.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Foxhunter said:


> I dislike cities and avoid them like the plague. I think I have been to London twice in the last forty years! Once was for a wedding the last to go see War Horse. I felt really dirty on my return amd jumped into the shower as soon as I could yet I could be out lambing/foaling come in filthy and certainly smelly with the sheep, yet not notice it.
> 
> There is nothing like sitting down to a meal knowing that all on your plate bar the salt, has been home grown.


Foxhunter, I thought I was the only one. When my parents would take me into Chicago for a show or to see the Christmas displays on Michigan Avenue, I would jump in the shower first thing home just to get the smell off. A smell that no one else seemed to think was there! They said I was ridiculous.

That memory really comes into service when I get a good smell down from Oliver after returning from town! My clothes, my hair, my hands the whole shebang but, he is the only one that seems to notice.


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## egrogan

I've never really known where I belong, because I am equally comfortable in the heart of a city and in the middle of the ruralest of rural places. Yesterday I enjoyed strolling down bustling Atlantic Ave after a day of meetings and dinner with a former colleague, and today I'm back at home in New Hampshire mucking out the chicken pen and listening to the crows fighting. I love both. Like the rest of you, I despise the suburbs and sprawl you've all been talking about- I hate that "fake" feeling in-between space and love the extremes of being in the middle of huge cities or fields and woods.

But loving both makes you feel like an oddball when you're around people who can only embrace one of the extremes- the city people see me as the token "country mouse" while the people here in my town shudder to think about jumping on the train for a day of meetings in NYC.

I feel fortunate that the wonders of modern telecommuting allow me to live a "hobby farming" life while still working a desk job for a company that mostly works in urban areas- best of both worlds to me. But in my personal life, we definitely prioritize supporting our local economy, growing our own food or buying from our farmer friends, and just having as little "stuff" as possible. At the end of the day, I like animals a lot more than people...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

egrogan said:


> But loving both makes you feel like an oddball when you're around people who can only embrace one of the extremes- the city people see me as the token "country mouse" while the people here in my town shudder to think about jumping on the train for a day of meetings in NYC....


I feel the oddball thing out here in the country as well for a different reason, I don't have a drawl and sometimes I even speak like a Canadian (I lived in Minnesota for a while)...can you say couuuuch? I say "pop" instead of "soda" and say 'crawdads' instead of "crawfish". But, like Foxhunter said, when they get to know you and realize that you aren't looking down your nose at them, you are accepted. Three weeks ago I was visiting with a bunch of cow folks, local business owners, two gay women and biker gang members all in one bar...and there were only about 15 of us there total. Talk about diversity!

On the other end of the spectrum, I can dress to the nines when needed and I know which fork or spoon to use for which course in a meal. I know how to pair wines to foods and can make my way around a ball room filled with dignitaries in D.C. I wasn't kidding that my mother hoped I would marry a Senator's son. (My mother and her sisters all live in DC and run in social circles there). 

I was at one time being trained to be a debutant there so I have all of those social skills and connections but, don't feel like I can identify with them nor do I want to. I don't like the way they generally view people that aren't just like them (this goes for so-called liberals and conservatives). 

Their private comments and attitudes are horrifically demeaning despite what you might see them say on television. I think that is why over the years I have pulled as far away from that type of thing as I can and gone rogue. I grew up with a foot in both worlds and only found "down to earth" in one of them.


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## Avna

I grew up with a foot in two worlds too -- I'm from a liberal, cultured, highly-educated background but I am most at home on a farm, and always have been. But the truth is, there isn't any group that I'm a true member of, and there never will be. It's just how I am. 

I hate politics, as they have become. I grew up in a *very* political family (journalists), I have worked in local politics, and it used to have rules and manners and was based on compromise. I don't recognize politics any more.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Opinions/observations 

Oliver is by far the most smell obsessed horse I have ever known. He always seems to know what is coming before it gets to us. In addition to the fact that he MUST smell me if I have gone off property, changed shampoos, soap or deodorant, one time on a trail he started getting all excited, wanted to run. Not being nasty and uncontrollable about it or anything. I could just tell something had him going and he had someplace he wanted to be, like yesterday.

We were riding on a trail that we had ridden a hundred times before. It bordered a working cattle ranch in this one spot. When we got there about half an hour later what did we see but cattle! Every other time we had ridden, the cattle were somewhere else on the property. He knew they were there from an impossibly long distance away. I let him walk right up to the fence, he stuck his head through and started sniffing each pile of poop and then looking at the animals quietly off grazing a few feet away. Once he sniffed every pile near the fence, it was like he had gotten his cow patty fix and relaxed into the ride.

Has anyone else had a smell obsessed horse and how did it manifest? Can you credit any "saved my bacon" incidences to your horse's sense of smell? Has the opposite happened and caused problems for you?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

We humans are so vision and sound oriented that I think we often times don’t realize what it would be like to be able to smell. I mean really smell something. 

I have a much better sense of smell than DH. So many times I have turned to him and said "You don't smell that?" and I can't imagine the handicap not being able to smell things would be. Some of the things I can smell that he can't; rain hours before it gets here, even small gas leaks, anything burning, even a candle lit at the far reaches of the house, my children (especially when they were babies), doggie smell, even after a used car has been scrubbed clean, poop or pee somewhere, anywhere in the house, city funk, rotting flesh from a long way away, mild thrush (hooves), infection, mold, mildew, fungus.

Having a horse who is very overtly attune to his sense of smell has been interesting. I know a lot of people on trails will stop a horse from sniffing animal scat, other horse’s poop, the ground surrounding a pond or river. They treat it as a behavior as rude and unnecessary as stopping to grab a mouthful of grass. But, should we? Is it rudeness/disrespectful behavior or a horse simply trying to get a clearer picture of their environment?

Obviously, a horse who wants to stop and sniff every little thing on the trail is a PITA and allowing it every time would be undesirable. IMO though, allowing them, encouraging them, to occasionally use their sense of smell can be both informative and calming to them, much like our sense of sight or hearing is to us. 

I found an article here Equine Sense of Smell | TheHorse.com that has made me rethink the importance of allowing a horse to engage that sense _when practical.
_ 
“According to David Whitaker, PhD, of Middle Tennessee State University, ‘Horses depend on their sense of smell the way we depend on language.’…..Many trainers over the centuries have agreed that horses also seem to be able to recognize the smell of death, sometimes reacting suspiciously to a spot where another horse has died, sometimes for months or years after the animal perished.”

It turns out that horses actually have two organs for analyzing scents.

“The olfactory cells send out two branches, one that extends over the surface of the olfactory mucosa and another that acts as a direct pipeline to the brain. The twin olfactory bulbs, distinct areas of the brain which are responsible for identifying scents, are located at the very front of the cerebrum--one on each lobe--and are connected via the main olfactory nerves to the receptors in the nasal passages. Interestingly, the olfactory bulbs are one of the only brain structures that do not cross over; *the receptors in the left nostril are directly connected with the left olfactory bulb, and the right with the right*.”

This explains a behavior that I have observed and always wondered why he did it this way. I have seen Oliver really get into a smell, such as Oregano Oil (one of his favorites), he will sniff the bottle first with one nostril, then the other, then switch back and then back again until he has had enough. Occasionally, he will do this for minutes rather than seconds if he finds the smell particularly interesting. You can see the wheels turning and an intense focus as if he is trying to commit the smell to long term memory.

“There's a second pair of olfactory organs lurking under the floor of the horse's nasal cavity--the vomeronasal organs (sometimes called Jacobson's organs, after the Danish anatomist Ludvig Jacobson who first described them in 1813). Almost all animals are equipped with vomeronasal organs (abbreviated VNO); in fact, humans and cetacean sea mammals (whales and dolphins) are among the few species which seem to be deprived. The structure and function of the VNO have been extensively studied in reptiles and rodents, so although there has been little research that's equine-specific, there's quite a bit we can extrapolate about the organ.

"We do know that the VNOs in horses are tubular and cartilaginous, and are about 12 centimeters long. (Despite their size, they're so carefully concealed that it's little wonder anatomists before Jacobson completely missed them.) They're lined with mucous membranes; they contain more sensory fibers of the olfactory nerve; and they're connected to the main nasal passages by a duct called the nasopalatine duct. (In some animals, the nasopalatine duct also makes a connection with the mouth, making it possible for scents to be drawn in through more than one entrance, but in horses, which aren't mouth breathers, the VNOs communicate only with the nasal passages.) The VNOs seem to expand and contract like a pump with stimulation from strong odors, and they have their own pathways to the brain, functioning almost as completely separate sensory organs…… *In some species, horses included, stimulation of the VNOs has a profound influence on the animal's endocrine system.”
*
This last part is very interesting as hormones (not just reproductive ones) are so very important in regulating everything from the body’s ability to absorb vitamins and minerals to heart rates, brain function and regulating blood sugar to name a few.

Your Horse's Endocrine System | EquiMed - Horse Health Matters 

Also, there has been some debate as to whether or not there is indeed a fear pheromone that we humans give off. I tend to think that there is and that animals can smell it. According to this study, we can too although, we might not exactly know what it is we are smelling and it does not link to our brains the same way as it does in animals. In animals, smells are very closely linked in the brains to *emotions*, even more so than in humans.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/dec/03/fear-smell-pheromone 

Like most things, far more studies have been done on humans leaving us on our own to observe what the horses sense of smell can and cannot convey.

Things I have noticed. Allowed to do so, Oliver will choose to sniff the fresh hoofprints of another horse that has recently passed on a trail. To us, this seems silly. Poop and pee, we can understand. They stink but, hoof prints? I mean what possible useful information can be gotten from that? From what I have been reading, he might be able to tell both the sex and health status of the other horses ahead. 

He will also ask to lower his head and stop and sniff his own recent hoof prints when we have completed a circuit on a trail. What I see in him is like “I’ve been here before and that way is home”. It might explain some of the stories a friend of mine would tell about being dead drunk in her early twenties, riding home from a bar. So, drunk, as to not even remembering how they got home but, still the horses got them there. 

I have often marveled at how Oliver always seems to know, no matter how new the property or how lost I get, which way is home. How much of that is smell?

When we come up to a wet area, such as a muddy area, river, lake or even a wash, Oliver, given his druthers will lower his head, sniff the ground and find the best place to cross. It seems that he can tell how firm the ground is by smelling it. 

When presented with a novel object in my hand Oliver does not look at it or mouth it, he smells it. The first time a saddle pad was thrown on his back, he wanted to smell it first. Allowed to do so, there was no problem setting it up there, same with the saddle, saddle bags, rain slickers...the list is long and sordid. 

I do think his sense of smell is a large part of why he can relax on the trails. He can't see it or hear it but, I believe he knows exactly where every animal from miles around is; dogs, coyote, other horses...

One downside to having a horse with a really good sense of smell is that he is also a "super taster". Forget trying to sneak supplements or meds into his feed! Another is that if there is an apple or carrot in your pocket, he darn well smells the human treat truck coming literally a mile away.

Anyway, the next time you are out on the trails and you find them getting anxious about something, consider allowing your horse to take a good sniff around, it might do the trick.


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## Avna

I believe that when horses spook at something that "isn't there", they are reacting to a smell, such as that of a predator which recently crossed the trail. I always let my horse smell something new.

A lot of research has been done on how canids 'track', since it is useful to humans. Dogs can do things like smell a cadaver at the bottom of a river, or when an epileptic is going to have a seizure, or when an earthquake is going to happen. They follow a trail by determining the differing odor strengths of adjacent footprints. If you watch dogs trying to pick up a trail, they 'cast' back and forth along the trail to figure out what direction the animal or person is going in. That's why tire tracks are difficult (but not impossible) for them to follow -- they make a continuous scent pattern. 

I've used my horse's ability to find the trail she came in on a few times! I have a bad sense of direction.

Aromatherapy seems to have a strong effect on many horses. 

I am reading a book called "The Horse: the epic history of our noble companion" by Wendy Williams. It is a linked series of essays about the evolution of the horse, how it changed from a small jungle creature to a grass-eating plains animal (first grass had to invent itself). She interviews paleontologists, mustang watchers, mongolian herders. She explains why the wild horses of the Camargue are white, why the distinction between feral and wild, in horses in particular, is so blurry, the complexity of horses' teeth, and many other things. She visits feral/wild horse herds all over the world. It's a cool book (I'm far from finished reading it, it's a lot to absorb). 

Last night I read about the sense of sight. She watched a whole herd of horses go on high alert at something which turned out to be a hot air balloon so distant she could not see it for a long time. And then noted that her horse cannot locate a dropped carrot right in front of him unless she points it out. This because horses see a much more limited palette of colors than we do; orange (and red) does not stick out for them at all. Our eyes evolved to locate fruits and berries in foliage, theirs, to locate predators from as far away as possible. 

If she mentions anything about noses I will post it here!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

You might also find this interesting: horses are being trained for scent detection much like dogs.

Narcotics
Hunting
Search and rescue

Scent-tracking horses, dogs part of next search for missing Dugway soldier | Deseret News

https://sites.google.com/site/sarbook1/sar-horses 


http://mustangstotherescue.org/air-scenting-equines/


http://airscentinghorse.com/necessary_traits.htm


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## Hondo

When a fence was down and the horses got out, Hondo and I went out and found them. Hondo had his head to the ground like a dog much of the time. We found them. Once in a while I'd see a hoof print as he smelled along.

Temple Grandin says she thinks in pictures. And she believes that animals likely do also. From my experience with a 100% autistic savant on this ranch, along with my experiences with Hondo, I'm inclined to believe horses think in pictures and have a photographic memory of every where they go. Hondo will often hold his head up looking around when looking for a trail just as a human might.

The person on the ranch cannot follow simple descriptions of, up this road or trail so far, to here, then there, etc. Descriptions that anyone could easily follow.

But this same person can smooth a spot on the ground and deftly and quickly draw a cartographically perfect map of the area in question. And then say, "Show me where you are talking about". Show me is used in several other areas. I have become convinced that this person, like Hondo, has a photographic memory of everywhere traveled.

I most often allow Hondo to smell whatever whenever he wants.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo, 

I do believe you are right though I also believe memory is attached to other senses as well, like hearing your favorite song from your teen years bringing back memories of that special someone or night; the feelings attached also flood back. Or for me, smells. I was in a store one day and I caught a whiff of a man wearing a certain cologne my father wore. He died when I was 17, so it has been many years since I have smelled it, as it is a brand that is common over seas and not so much here. 

I think all of our senses play a role in creating memory and interpreting the world around us, but some of us are attuned more to some senses than others for providing information. IMO it is the same with horses.


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## Hondo

Well yes, I did not intend to exclude those that I did not mention. Old songs also bring memories back to me. Strange that brain damaged people can sometimes sing but not be able to speak.

Temple may never have become the Temple she is had it not been for her mother noticing her humming as her mother was playing the piano. That was the point where her mother decided there was definitely something in that head that no one had discovered. The rest is history.

Smells? My favorite ever since leaving the farm and living in the city was a barn. Hay, manure, the whole nine yards. Pass one of those barns on a drive and it was the sweetest perfume to me. And now that I have my own piles of horse manure, I still like it.


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## Foxhunter

I taught myself to think in pictures to see of it worked with horses and it certainly does. 

Skipper, my late boss's hunter was particularly receptive to this. He could be eating his feed in the stable and standing close to a pile of poop and I would picture him moving so I could clear it. He would. I then pictured him just lifting that back foot instead of moving and he would do that instead. No voice command I would picture it before I went into the stable. 

The University of Florida wanted to test how much more sensitive dogs noses were than humans. They had several dogs trained to pick out a certain aroma, similar to almonds. There were six machines in a room only one would waft out the scent. The same person handled each dog and didn't know which machine was going to be used. 

One dog, a Miniature Schnauzer, kept going way after the other dogs had given up. They said the the scent was so weak that no machine could pick it up and likened it to the dog picking out the right second in the last century. 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/dogs-sense-of-smell.html

When we went to horse shows we hired horseboxes from the local cattle haulier. All the drivers were good with the horses and knew their job well. 
One day the owner arrived to take the first load to the show. One gorlmwemt to load her pony, he bounced upmthe ramp, had his head inside and spun around knocking her over. He charged back to the yard, eyes wide and nostrils flared. Her sister's pony was taken up and he did more or less the same. 
I thought that perhaps pigs had been in there but the owner assured me they hadn't *but* he had brought a lion to the local zoo. He had changed the straw but hadn't hosed out. 

We had to spray it with a very strong disinfectant beforenthe ponies would load. I couldn't small a thing and certainly those ponies had never met a lion before so instinct from smell can be very strong.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Hondo, my mother always made fun of me because as a child, I would walk into a stable, inhale and say "That smells soooo good!".
@Foxhunter, I tried a similar thing with my horses. Thinking in pictures has always been natural to me. I mean how else can you relay accurately to others every little detail of a scene? I used it all the time when coaching to tell a student what needed correcting in their body position. I don't think it is something that is necessarily unique to autism or animals. A lot of the parts of the brain are like a muscle, use it, or lose it.

Caspian was the only one that had a very good and immediate response to picture thoughts to the point where I can say it went well beyond coincidental. Surprisingly, Cowboy came in a close second. 

Oliver had the strongest response when I thought in words like "I wonder where Oliver is off to?" his head would peek around an object to let me see him or "You know I would really like to run this stretch up here" and the exact moment I reached the spot I was thinking of starting, he'd do it before I got a chance to cue.


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## Hondo

In case my words about Temple Grandin were misunderstood, Temple did not make any indication of any ability by her to communicate with animals using pictures. Nor did she indicate that animals communicated with each other using picture thoughts. She didn't discuss that. She even has a book out about thinking in pictures. I've not bought it yet but I do intend to.

And in case my words above are misunderstood, I am not suggesting that animals cannot communicate with each other or with humans using pictures, just that Temple's rendition was just concerning her own internal thought processes.

An autistic person recently won a scholarship as a Rhodes Scholar. Some might argue that he cheats for when he is unsure of a correct answer, he simply thumbs through his notes to find the answer. His notes are stored away in his brain in the form of pictures.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> An autistic person recently won a scholarship as a Rhodes Scholar. Some might argue that he cheats for when he is unsure of a correct answer, he simply thumbs through his notes to find the answer. His notes are stored away in his brain in the form of pictures.


That is what it is like to have a photographic memory. My son has a fully photographic memory, mine is only with words to an extent. I can find a phrase in a book, based on remembering what a page looks like, and the position in the book, how the words are spaced on a page, even if I read the book many years ago. I can still recite the first book I ever read (Madeline), when I was three. My daughter uses colors and pictographs to remember where something is in her school notes.

I don't think it was misunderstood, Foxhunter and I just kind of drifted. That's kind of what is fun about journals, drifting is allowed.


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## Hondo

Well, I haven't read Thinking In Pictures yet, so I can't say for certain, but the gist of of what I got from several times reading Animals In Translation, when Temple Grandin speaks of thinking in pictures, it is something much different than a photographic memory.

I have at least some of the photographic memory of which you describe, but that is not what I get from Grandin's description. My take is that it is something all together different.


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## Avna

Hondo said:


> Well, I haven't read Thinking In Pictures yet, so I can't say for certain, but the gist of of what I got from several times reading Animals In Translation, when Temple Grandin speaks of thinking in pictures, it is something much different than a photographic memory.
> 
> I have at least some of the photographic memory of which you describe, but that is not what I get from Grandin's description. My take is that it is something all together different.


Yes, that's what I remember from her book too, but I read it years ago.


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## gottatrot

Several times Halla has refused to let me use something on her if she didn't like the smell. Such as a medication or a fly spray. She is sensitive about this to the extent that I let her smell new things and ask her if it is OK to use it on her. She gets very upset if I put something on and she doesn't like it. 

A couple of times I have opened something and wiped it on her, and then after smelling it she started doing everything possible to get it off. It's interesting to see a horse trying to wipe off the back of their pasterns. Then the next time I brought out the bottle she was like, "No way!" and wouldn't let me get it close to her. 
Once or twice I insisted and got the stuff on her, only to have her throw a fit and start stomping, whirling her tail around and clacking her teeth with her ears skinned back. When she is upset you don't have to know anything about horse body language. She makes herself very clear.

Amore doesn't seem to care very much about smells. I think she is more sensitive to input from her ears and eyes.

I think horses are very good at creating maps in their heads. They seem to remember old trails and once they've seen a trail, it gets added to the map. They seem to remember all the twists and turns better than we do.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Well, I haven't read Thinking In Pictures yet, so I can't say for certain, but the gist of of what I got from several times reading Animals In Translation, when Temple Grandin speaks of thinking in pictures, it is something much different than a photographic memory.
> 
> I have at least some of the photographic memory of which you describe, but that is not what I get from Grandin's description. My take is that it is something all together different.


Apologies @Hondo I responded to your post just before we ran out the door. Now I'm the one who need to clarify. The Photographic memory was in reference to the Rhodes Scholar you mentioned.

As to what thinking in pictures is like, you are correct photographic memory is different, though similar in that you can close your eyes and see the page as a picture and read it back. Same thing when I am building a quilt, cooking or building a structure or decorating a room. I see the picture first, colors, shapes, sizes everything in my head with my eyes wide open and then each subsequent thought along the way is a variation on that picture as to how to go about making it. 

When I was coaching figure skating or doing choreography, all of my thoughts were in pictures and then I had to transfer them into words so that the person I was trying to teach could understand what they needed to do.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> Several times Halla has refused to let me use something on her if she didn't like the smell. Such as a medication or a fly spray. She is sensitive about this to the extent that I let her smell new things and ask her if it is OK to use it on her. She gets very upset if I put something on and she doesn't like it.
> 
> A couple of times I have opened something and wiped it on her, and then after smelling it she started doing everything possible to get it off. It's interesting to see a horse trying to wipe off the back of their pasterns. Then the next time I brought out the bottle she was like, "No way!" and wouldn't let me get it close to her.
> Once or twice I insisted and got the stuff on her, only to have her throw a fit and start stomping, whirling her tail around and clacking her teeth with her ears skinned back. When she is upset you don't have to know anything about horse body language. She makes herself very clear.
> 
> Amore doesn't seem to care very much about smells. I think she is more sensitive to input from her ears and eyes.
> 
> I think horses are very good at creating maps in their heads. They seem to remember old trails and once they've seen a trail, it gets added to the map. They seem to remember all the twists and turns better than we do.


 @gottatrot, it must be very funny to see her try to wipe things off. Bug spray here is an absolute must, the flies I think are worse for the horses than the fly spray smell. This winter it seems like we didn't even get a break from them. 

I didn't think of baths, how does Halla do getting washed up? Oliver didn't much care for it when we first got him but, put some nice smelling shampoo on and he doesn't seem to mind. Now you have me wondering if, because he likes the smell, that might explain why he doesn't try to roll right afterwards!


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs

This news article refers to an exceptionally advanced photographic memory but in reading his past with it being similar to Temple's, I'm thinking that was just journalism speaking.

I'd like to hear Temple's opinion on that. I'm betting she would classify it as something quite different than a photographic memory. More of a brain structure thing.

Meet an Amazing American Rhodes Scholar with Autism - NBC News

With his mother traveling with him, it appears he is still in need of support.


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs

And here's more. Temple said that when a word, lake for instance, was spoken to her, images of all the lakes she had seen would flash in front of her.

And the boy said when he came to a question the notes pertaining to that would just appear. Much like Temple described. So I'm thinking that both Temple and the boy are doing something that you and I are simply not capable of, just as the horse does many things that no human is capable of doing or learning to do.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My nephew has Asperger's. He is 23, brilliant at math and was in college for a while but, he couldn't handle the other subjects that were required for a degree without the support from his parents that he had growing up. He now works at Burger King, takes community college courses and still lives at home but, he is plugging along. 

Congrats to both that young man in the article and his mother. She has given him an amazing gift.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> @Reiningcatsanddogs
> 
> So I'm thinking that both Temple and the boy are doing something that you and I are simply not capable of, just as the horse does many things that no human is capable of doing or learning to do.


What they are finding with autism is a twofold issue. One is that the ratio of two specific parts of the brain is off size wise. The other is that the internal wiring of the brain in those parts, is also abnormal. There are an unusual number of synapses (particularly in the frontal lobes) and in many cases the synapse are misfiring or not firing at all. 

If you think of our brains as having wiring similar to a bunch of interconnected water hoses…autism creates kinks in many of the hoses restricting the path that the water can flow down.

It isn’t that our brains cannot do what an autistic brain can, it is that their brains have routes that are restricted so that through the process of entrenchment, they use more fully the parts that are open to them. We have those same parts available to us if we use them. 

I disagree that we incapable of doing the same thing. It is simply that our brains have far more outlets for the water to flow through and to do the same thing, we would have to train our brains to make fuller use of those pathways.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2016/01/401461/brains-wiring-connected-sensory-processing-disorder

(SPD is not Autism but, much of what they are learning about autism started with studies on other disorders)

Article on how and why we lose connectivity throughout life. (Use it or lose it)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new-brain/201106/brain-wiring


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## Foxhunter

Wasn't Einstein meant to be autistic? 

I seem to remember reading about it somewhere.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

This article discusses both Einstein and Newton and is fairly good.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3676-einstein-and-newton-showed-signs-of-autism/ 

Thing is people who are very smart are also often a bit...socially awkward, strange and seen as unusual by others. Doesn't necessarily mean that they are Autistic though....

Not all geniuses are autistic and not all of those who are autistic are geniuses.


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## Hondo

I seem to remember the same about Einstein.

@Reiningcatsanddogs I totally agree that we do have the facilities that autistic people have, but it's just that we can't access them, mostly.

It is incredible to think that we have the ability to count matches as on Rainman. And to have total recall on all that we've seen. And the many other things that the autistic savants can do.

I have long thought, an opinion I will not defend, that the training recieved in Zen culminates in reaching a part of that. I have seen some real life things that "normal" people not trained in Zen could never possibly do.

Incredible to think of the possibilities of the mind. And whatever is believed about the mind, will be revised again, and again, and again.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I'll give you another example of something that seems fairly incredible to some but, through training of the mind can be done. I can visually measure compatible size within a centimeter or two. Like whether x will fit through an existing opening. It has wowed my husband on a couple of occasions because I can visually rotate a sofa into all positions and tell if the door needs to come off, or if another door is needed. Silly I know but, it actually has come in handy on several occasions when riding (for instance jumping). 

I attribute that to having to do school (compulsory) figures for hours and hours in skating as a child. For those of you who are not familiar with those (they have not been a requirement for 20 years)






Visualization was a big part of it. What I always did was to stand there at the axis junctions, look at the ice and superimpose a mental image from my head onto the ice for the layout tracing and then trace over it with my feet. 

Each circle needs to be 1 1/2 times your height, round and aligned with the other on the sides via an x-y access determined by the meeting point at the center; often (depending upon which section of ice you are assigned) you have no point of relevance with which to judge size or alignment, only a 100 foot patch of white ice. Turns must be aligned or equidistant to the axis, depending on the figure. You are to maintain an edge at all times with only a quick transition to the opposite edge where required. 

A figure blade is only 1/8" wide and has a hollow in the middle creating an "edge" on one side or the other, which certain things, jumps, spins etc are required to be on at certain times. The depth of the hollow and the rocker on a blade determines the natural radius of the blade.










Interestingly enough, I nearly failed Algebra 1&2, trigonometry and calculus, only to ace Geometry almost without study. It is amazing how the mind can be trained...

If the following sounds like bragging, my apologies. It isn't meant that way more as an experiential observation that might be able to help someone else.

I have been told that I have a "sticky seat" meaning, I can stay on through some pretty rough riding that would have most people my age and sex in the dirt. Two other complements I have received are exceptional feel and balance. 

I don't attribute that to years of riding (which at various times in my life was more off than on) as much as I do to continuous years of skating, ice hockey, ballet, modern dance, ball room dance, martial arts, bike riding, gymnastics, tennis, softball, weight training, hiking, swimming, flag football; and just being allowed to play like a kid. The diversification of movement and thought is so important; one skill set contributes to the other. 

Our lifestyles have changed so much over the years that I see more and more children for whom movement is restricted to one sport upon which they concentrate to the exclusion of all others at younger and younger ages. It leads to a certain single mindedness; a lack of diverse connectivity within the brain. 

As kids, we ran, we played, we climbed things, we built forts, played the now politically incorrect "Cowboys and Indians" or "War"/capture the flag after school. At recess we played tag, dodgeball, Red Rover, tackle football without helmets or pads, we flung ourselves off of high swinging swings to see who could fly the furthest, Did "penny drops" off of the monkey bars and any myriad of things that are now outlawed at school. We learned to lose with grace and do better the next time. Kids today generally, don't have the same opportunities to develop their minds and bodies through natural play. 

Martial arts, playing cowboys and Indians, capture the flag), dodge ball and ice hockey taught me to read body language of an opponent, to be able predict a move through "gives" (think poker game) and know my own gives.

Dance and skating taught me to control one vertebrae, one small muscle and move it independent of other muscles and to move with, rather than against a partner. 

Weight lifting and climbing trees taught me to overcome pain and exhaustion, pushing it aside mentally to reach a goal. 

Gymnastics, swing flings and penny drops taught me to maintain balance in my body, even when there was nothing to steady against but air. 

Ice hockey, tag, football taught me to be aware of and "feel" other people's motions, positions without actually having to look at each them, and make quick adjustments to my own and of course, how to take a hit and walk away from it. 

All of those things create pathways in the brain which can then be called upon when doing something quite different from the activity in which they were forged. IMO diversity of physicality and mentality is important to be our best in whatever we pursue.


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs Have you ever taken a mechanical aptitude test?


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## egrogan

@Reiningcatsanddogs- I feel like you are my long lost mom...not trying to be creepy, but man, I so relate to everything you write about  I spent hours and hours doing cumpolsory skating figures as a kid. Perhaps one of the most exciting Christmas gift I ever received was my own scribe. I can still envision the color pink of the case it came in. And I can feel what the ice was like under your foot when you when you changed direction across a figure 8 and switched the angle of the blade from the inside to the outside.

Although I do have to admit, while I have those very strong sensory memories of skating, I am horrible at spatial processing (I could not do your rotate-the-couch-in-space trick to assess fit through the door). My brain loves calculus and statistics, but definitely not geometry.


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## Foxhunter

One thing for sure is that although understanding of the brain has come a long way in recent years, there is even further to go before it might be really understood.

Brain power is phenomenal with what it can overcome and how it can be trained. 

Years ago I watched a programme about three women who had cancer, one was only a child and developed leukaemia, not a lot of treatment for it at the time. Parents took her to prayer healing and the woman said she can remember the feeling of a great heat coursing through her body. She was cured.
The second woman was diagnosed and told she was terminal, she went into a deep depression and only when an old friend came to see her and kicked her butt, did she set herself targets, the first few days was to go the the golf club, then to play the first hole and so on. She felt better and stronger every day and the cancer went away. 

The third was a woman in her eighties. She had worked all her life and had been personal secretary to some major company boss. She had cancer for many years and bits taken out of her. She had it return without much hope so,she sold her London home, rented out her country house, released her investments and set out to see places she had always wanted to see. 

Finally she ended up in Ca and joined a self help group. She was told to think of her cancer a coral and she was a piranha fish gobbling up. She couldn't do that as coral was pretty so she imagined the cancer to be cauliflower, which she hated. She said that after each meditation she would feel sick and retch a lot.gradually over months she could find no more cauliflower to gobble up. When she got back to London and visited her doctors, there wasn't a trace of cancer to be found. 

There are many incidents of people overcoming serious problems by 'thinking' them away. 

Pain is all in the mind. Reining says she learned to overcome it and I agree. My mother was tough and never made a fuss over injuries. Of a toddler fell she would glibly say, "Look at the hole you made in the ground!" It distracted them from feeling pain. 

I can will pain away. Many times I have been stitched without any local anaesthetic. (That usually worries the doctors more than me!) 

Why can some people do this and not others? Is it the way we were reared or is it something else?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> @Reiningcatsanddogs Have you ever taken a mechanical aptitude test?


Not that I know of (unless physics tests or putting together IKEA furniture without instructions counts) but, I have taken spacial relation tests. They used to be part of the SRI tests we took every year. 

http://www.psychometric-success.com/aptitude-tests/spatial-ability-tests-solid-shapes.htm 

http://www.psychometric-success.com/faq/faq-spatial-ability-tests.htm

A cursory explanation of the mental processes involved: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228728824_Psychological_Measures_of_Spatial_Abilities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_visualization_ability


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

egrogan said:


> @Reiningcatsanddogs- I feel like you are my long lost mom...not trying to be creepy, but man, I so relate to everything you write about  I spent hours and hours doing cumpolsory skating figures as a kid. Perhaps one of the most exciting Christmas gift I ever received was my own scribe. I can still envision the color pink of the case it came in. And I can feel what the ice was like under your foot when you when you changed direction across a figure 8 and switched the angle of the blade from the inside to the outside.
> 
> Although I do have to admit, while I have those very strong sensory memories of skating, I am horrible at spatial processing (I could not do your rotate-the-couch-in-space trick to assess fit through the door). My brain loves calculus and statistics, but definitely not geometry.


I also remember getting a scribe for Christmas, up until then, I was constantly borrowing someone else's. It was so exciting! For those of you who don't know what that is, think super sized compass like for math.  Back then they were pretty expensive. BTW I hated figures! I was a freestyler all the way and a jumper over spinner. I still occasionally have dreams where I am jumping and landing everything I try! 

Brains are wonderful things and unpredictable in their individuality...that is what also attracted me to psych. BTW a close friend and training partner of mine was in that vid-clip...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Foxhunter said:


> One thing for sure is that although understanding of the brain has come a long way in recent years, there is even further to go before it might be really understood.
> 
> Brain power is phenomenal with what it can overcome and how it can be trained.
> 
> I can will pain away. Many times I have been stitched without any local anaesthetic. (That usually worries the doctors more than me!)
> 
> Why can some people do this and not others? Is it the way we were reared or is it something else?


Foxhunter, I wish I knew the cast-iron answer to that. Some say it has to do with the ability to call forth endorphins using the mind....


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## Hondo

Mechanical aptitude test consists almost entirely of three dimensional objects that require rotation in the mind to find the correct answer. Counting how many flat surfaces there are. Or choose which object will fit to make a cube. And other mechanical type objects that have to be rotated to find the answer. Some can get very complex.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Hondo. I always thought of that as spatial relationship tests. Mechanical aptitude tests are more like what my son had to take to get into the USAF; it included some special relation questions but was more like the BMCT. Like this.

Free mechanical aptitude test available to download 

If that the other is your definition than yes I have taken lots of them. I have and routinely scored 100% correct.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

In horse news, I found out today that my mobile vet no longer does emergency calls. I have routine things coming up such as vaccinations, coggins, teeth etc.

Should I keep with the same vet I have used for ten years, knows me and my horses and use someone else for emergencies or... change vets all together and start developing a new realtionship?


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## gottatrot

Those of you who can see spatial distances are lucky.
My husband is like that with the ability to see how things fit into spaces and how to rotate them to make it work. We'll have a piece of furniture sitting somewhere and I think we can just turn it and force it through a doorway and he'll know that we can't. What always bugs me is when there is a box in a store and he'll know if it will fit into the back seat of the car or trunk just by looking at it. I will always think it is too big or that it will fit, but he's always right and I'm always wrong. When he loads the dishwasher he fits in way more dishes than I can, but it's all symmetrical and artistic looking.

But I can see very well if I can fit through a space between horses or trees when moving fast on a horse. My brain has picked up exactly how our speed relates to the space and I can visualize what the other horses are planning based on their posture and how fast they are moving. So I guess I could have been a jockey. I'd rather be able to see distances on horseback than be able to load a dishwasher well! 

Once we went and played on a Wii with some family. I was worse than everyone at every game, even my husband's grandma and grandpa. Except there was one game where I beat everyone by a mile, and that was one where you had to stand on two spots on the ground and balance your weight evenly, changing the pressure on your feet slightly to move through the game. It was like being in stirrups, and was so easy for me without the shifting of the horse there to affect it.


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## Hondo

I have always preferred to believe that everyone has the same "amount" of talent, but in different areas.

I do very well on mechanical aptitude tests. To me they are fun like brain teasers. English and writing? Not so well. History and rote memory? Again, not so well.

I wound up with a major in mathematics not for any interest in math but just as a way to offset my miserable GPA in history type subjects.

And looking at and living with Hondo, I think he has at least the same amount (or more) talent as I but in different areas.


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## Foxhunter

We are so lucky in the UK with always being able to get hold of a vet - whether they are the best in an emergency is another matter! 

As for special awareness I am better than average for getting it right. Mind you, when it comes to moving furniture I will look, think, "No way!" yet still try. 
Funniest one with that was going to help friends move house. When I arrived they had a wardrobe stuck on the stairs. Theyhad got it around the top turn and tilted the top forward where it had stuck on the top. They were puffing and panting, cussing and saying, "Well it went up easily."
I just stood there laughing which caused more cussing. I told them to stand it upright again then to lift the bottom forward - plenty of room. LOL.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> *I have always preferred to believe that everyone has the same "amount" of talent, but in different areas.
> *
> I do very well on mechanical aptitude tests. To me they are fun like brain teasers. English and writing? Not so well. History and rote memory? Again, not so well.
> 
> I wound up with a major in mathematics not for any interest in math but just as a way to offset my miserable GPA in history type subjects.
> 
> And looking at and living with Hondo, I think he has at least the same amount (or more) talent as I but in different areas.


Hondo, I used to believe the same. But there are truly people you are just like “Wow! What happened there?" I worked most of my life with kids. Some of them were very bright. Some of them were very wise (street smart). Some of them were very athletic. Some of them were very good with people. Some of them were none of those things. Some of them were all of those things.

When we lived in Florida there was a public school there that was just for gifted kids. In order to qualify you had to have an IQ over 136 in every testable area of intelligence (that is on the old tests, not the newer "feel good" tests that have come out as of late). So, I took my eldest son, 10 years old at the time, to be tested. I knew he was “different” from the time he was a baby. I left him with the psychiatrist for the couple of hours of testing and waited in the waiting room. When I was called back in the Dr. sat me down and said deadpan “What have you been doing with this child?” 

I kind of stuttered, thinking testing revealed he was secretly a serial killer or something and said “Nothing really. I just let him be him. Answer his questions, help him find answers if he wants to. Try whatever he wants, just like the rest of my kids.”

Dr. smiled and said “Whatever you are doing with him, keep doing it. I have never tested a kid with an IQ this high and this evenly off the charts across the board who was also this ‘normal’. We were talking for a while and I threw a nerf ball at him. He caught it. Most of my clients, it hits them in the face.”

That same boy, now a father of 3, got into Harvard, Yale, University of Illinois Chicago and UT Austin. He did it while working a job as a manager, playing H.S. football (which here in Texas is the equivalent time wise of another part time job), learning to play a base saxophone and at the same time helping us take care of his younger siblings and being a good kid. 

He did it without private schools (he got into that school in Florida, but DH's job moved us six months in), without hours of studying every night, or some of the other things I see a lot of parents with bright kids doing. He got to be him and I do not regret one moment of it. 

He chose UT Austin, dropped out his second year to join the military and get married to his HS sweetheart. I have to admit, a little part of me was disappointed and thought, my god, what a waste of an incredible mind. Then I stopped dead. I had become my mother! She had told me the same thing when, after college, I decided to use my education to coach and help children with “issues” rather than going back and getting my medical degree. My mother is a brilliant academician but, without the common sense to find her way out of a wet paper bag. 

He is now working in an elite area for the US Government at age 26 that uses his well rounded mind. He has athletic ability, people skills, leadership ability, critical thinking, common sense and the ability to learn and adapt very quickly. He did boot camp, including the gas chamber, with a diagnosed case of double pneumonia. Where he is unusual is that he stands out not in one area but, in all areas. More importantly, he has friends, is a wonderful father and husband, fun to be around and a good person. He is still on Harvard’s “people to watch” list.

My eldest daughter is a great artist. She started her own professional photography business at age 19, with her own money that she saved up working through High School. She is also ranked number 11 in the nation in Olympic weight lifting at age 28, with s-curve scoliosis, hip dysplasia and the mother of two; she has only been training for it for two years. She is the wife of a special forces US Marine and has to juggle family, business, hobbies and her husband's often sudden absences. I know I couldn't do it.

My third child, a son, is an amazing ice hockey player who was recruited heavily in both the US and Canada, even though he was only 5’7” tall, 135# and a defenseman. Instead of going off to college, he worked his way up from being a car detailer and now he works as a mechanic for BMW. He has paid own way through college, plugging away a couple classes at a time. He bought his first house at age 23. He was never a scholar of any real merit and battled both severe dyslexia and dysgraphia. He will probably be our first child to finish a bachelor's degree.

My fourth child, wants to follow in my footsteps and get into psychology and the USAF. He plays a mean guitar in a band and is learning to play the drums. #5, wants to be a farmer/rancher when she grows up or maybe a vet. 

I am so very proud of each and every one of them and if they are happy, I am too. 

However, I have come to believe there are people in this world, that are blessed, out of sheer luck of the draw, to be more brilliant across the board than the rest of us. Rather than disparaging them, we should look to them to inspire us to become more in whatever pursuit inspires us. Imagine what it was like for my other children, growing up with their brother who seemed to excel at everything he tried. 

I think the same can be said of horses but, like children, we have to let them be who they are and not force them into a box where they can't find happiness. We have to set aside our own ideas of what they should be, could be and guide them through their own choices so they can become the best horse they can be in a world of humans.


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## whisperbaby22

Thanks for this catalog of young people doing well. We hear so much of the "entitled" generation, but I know there are lots of young people doing this well. My generation was labeled, too, but I have hope for the future.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

You are most welcome. Despite what we hear, this is still the land of opportunity and it can come in some of the most unexpected forms. We just have to recognize opportunity and take advantage, when presented. 

My father used to tell me “all roads lead to Rome”. Sometimes though, you need to take the road less traveled. Sometimes that road doesn't look as smooth and easy but, if you just keep to the path, it will get you there just the same and often wiser for having taken it.


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## Hondo

Hondo said:


> I have always preferred to believe that everyone has the same "amount" of talent, but in different areas.


Still thinking about this..........

Hondo will of course never qualify for acceptance at either Harvard or Yale. But does this mean he has less talent than I?

If asked, Hondo might scoff that he can smell water for a mile or more where a Harvard or Yale graduate might wander right on by and eventually die from dehydration.

Hondo would be measuring himself against the Harvard graduate it terms of what he sees as valuable to himself.

But we don't see it that way. The Harvard graduate measures way high on our yard stick.

Is our yardstick more correct than Hondo's? Or do we skew what we consider valuable in our own terms?

When all the fluff is pushed aside to expose the bedrock of what animal life is about, I'm still leaning towards my preferred belief that all are equal in talent, but in different areas.

That said, I would not attempt to actually defend said preferred belief.

Just some early morning musings.......


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Hondo, captivity changes what is the most valuable "talent" to a horse. Out on the open ranges, AKA "the wild". Certain skills are necessary and of value in the wild and not in captivity. A horse who is an easy keeper would be more likely to survive a drought. A horse who was calm and less spooky might have been amongst the first to perish when faced with predators.

Both of those things change priority when a horse has to live with humans in captivity. It might not be fair. It might not be philosophically kosher but, it is a reality. 

A domesticated horse needs to have value to a human in order to survive. The more talent as measured by a human the horse has, the higher the chances of survival and living a good healthy life. 

I have seen more than one horse end up being sent to the meat market because they injured their owners or because they were untrained, unhandled. The way a horse is sold at the auctions; if they ride sound, they have chance. If they don't almost instant guarantee they are leaving the auction on the meat truck. Talented by nature's standards or not, I own two of the first variety and one of the second.

In researching Ghost's past, I found out that he actually might have killed a previous owner. The horse that I now put my grandkids on, the horse I used to ride tack-less, might have actually killed his rider! 

The evidence trail goes from an internet conversation about Ghost having thrown his owner, directly to an Obituary of said owner in the paper less than a week later (no mention of cause of death, only her love of horses). He ended up at the sale. Ghost got lucky.

Bella is the other one. Sent to the market along with her foal because she ran her owner through a barbed wire fence, cut herself and her owner up before tossing her rider. To the market she went without a second thought. She was just being a good mother (a talent of nature?). It almost cost both of them their lives.

Oliver was almost starved to death by his previous owner. Whether that was out of ignorance or not, he obviously wasn't worth the man swallowing his pride and asking for knowledge. Instead, he slapped Oliver and his filly up on Craigslist for $400 each or $600 for the pair...A 7 year old only recently gelded, untrained stud? A dog whistle for every meat buyer in the area (and there are lots of them here). He was gifted those horses by someone who was "getting out of horses and into cattle".

A friend of mine was caught in a mess when her estranged father (a qh breeder for over 60 years) decided to retire and her father wanted her help selling 22 horses. Most of these horses were brood mares and had never been trained. 

They had outstanding papers for barrel racing but weren't ridable. After a month of trying to sell them outside of "the sale" nationally, she was tearing her hair out. Lucky for them, a local TB breeder wanted to use them for embryo transfers and all but two of them sold to him. When they get too old for that, guess what will probably happen to them? 

She kept two of them and spent quite a bit of money trying to train one of them before giving her away to a man who had lots of land and didn't care if there was one more horse on it. 

So yes, even though horses and measuring "talent" may vary from horse to human, it does matter how humans measure a horse. IME, those that do not measure up, are much more likely to end up on a plate in France.


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## Hondo

My only point is that value as defined by us humans may not in fact be the last word in value.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

...and my point is, for the well-being of the domestic horse (not necessarily the ones you personally own), when all is said and done, does that really matter?


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## Hondo

The quote I made that I thought we were referencing did not necessarily involve either the domestic or wild horse.

Switching to the domestic horse, I agree. Since Dragon should easily outlive me, if he eventually becomes my horse one thing I have thought about is teaching him in such a way that he will have a good value to humans in order to hopefully secure him a good life beyond mine. He would likely fair better in domestication than with a wild herd.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Talent

Cowboy has a talent for being hyper-aware, spooky if you will. He is not leadership material in our domestic herd. He wastes energy being constantly on high alert when that is not needed. If he was wild, he might have been a lead horse because there it would have value. 

Therefore, depending upon the situation, something can be a talent or a detriment as measured by the context in which it is applied.

So, when you make a statement re: that we each have talent in the same amounts only in different areas;

- I am saying that context in which that can be discussed, as either true or untrue, has to be considered.

- I would say that is observably untrue in horses as well as in people.

That is the point of a hierarchy. One horse possesses the ability to keep the herd safe above all others. Not decided by human measurements but, by horse measurements. If they all possessed talent vs detiriment in equal amounts, there would be no need for a hierarchy.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> So, when you make a statement re: that we each have talent in the same amounts only in different areas;


I don't think I quite made a statement to the fact. What I said, I believe is significantly different. This is what I prefer to believe. And to me this is in absence of convincing evidence to me to the contrary. When I am faced with compelling evidence, I will no longer have a choice in what I believe. Until then, I get to choose.




Hondo said:


> I have always preferred to believe that everyone has the same "amount" of talent, but in different areas.


Here is another example that may apply. Not changing subjects, just using an example.

There has been a long standing contention or saying that any motorcycle brand or size can win a race if the track or course is laid out for that particular motorcycle. Although examples could easily be brought up to refute this, the principle still stands to a very large degree based on my experience.

And so I believe it is with humans and other animals. Their rated values and talents often depend on the course or track they are on.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> *I have always preferred to believe that everyone has the same "amount" of talent, but in different areas*..


A bike does not have talent, it has a purpose for which it was designed. Designed by humans not nature.

Cowboy can ride a 3d time barrel pattern. He can work cattle. Pack. That's it. Believe me, DH and I have spent hours (and$) trying to find another niche for him where he can be special and build confidence. Looking at his pedigree he should be heading to the AQHA hall of fame. The amount of talent necessary to get there, is not there for him (even in his strong suits) and he has had some darn good owners and riders try. My poor boy is a tank, a klutz and does not have the talent in the abundance needed to excel at what he was bred to do. Which, is why I could afford him in the first place. 

Oliver can work cattle, run a 3d time, leap tall buildings (or prickly pear) in a single bound, schlep a pack, do western dressage pretty well, run good pole times and trail ride. I could pick any of those things to compete in and he would do very well. Only one makes him happy.

I'm sorry but, I see plenty of evidence that there is not a balance of talent or intelligence in nature. It might appear so in that we humans have the ability to both call forth force of will (motivation) and the ability to consciously pursue learning; to be self-motivated to become more than we are. As far as sheer natural distribution, I don't believe that to be true. 

We will just have to agree to disagree.


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## Foxhunter

It all boils down to what is classed as talent!

Someone, horse or human, has the ability to do their best or not. The one that is encouraged and praised for effort will do its best. The one that is constantly nagged and forever corrected, will give up trying, loosing confidence and will.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hondo, I used to believe the same.


Well, at least we agreed for a while until you changed your mind


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Kids were off of school today so we hit up the Travis County Fair and Rodeo, also known as the Austin Rodeo. We went specifically to watch the AQHA/APHA Youth Show as #5 still hasn’t made up her mind as to whether or not she would like to give showing a whirl.

The one class I was most interested in was the Novice Trail Class. I was kind of surprised that the biggest group of competitors throughout, had only 5 participating. In some there were only two. I seem to remember many more participants back years ago.

The AQHA has set up levels of patterns; this is not exactly the pattern that was ridden, only similar.










I did take video but, as the participants/kids and horses aren’t mine, you will have to settle for a pic of the course instead. Not exactly a "real" trail but, a test of some skill none the less. 









Skill sets: Jog circle L/R
Pick up left lead at a canter (different from the pattern above)
Trot and canter over cavaletti’s
Side pass (L only)
Open, pass through and close gate
Back horse up around a 45 degree turn
Stop
Walk over a “bridge”
Weave through cones at a trot


There were two things I saw that are really none of my business but, something that I am promising myself right now, if #5 does decide to show, that will not happen.

First, as a parent, I will keep my mouth shut and not sit in the front row and coach from the stands.

Second, our horses will do standard working horse gaits and not western pleasure type unless the specifically class calls for them (as in it is a WP class apparently does).

It was fun and interesting. Then there was this. #5 got to ride a horse of a different color (Yes, it is live and not stuffed):


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## Foxhunter

THEre is a competition in the US which involves endurance riding but with obstacles encountered for which points are awarded. I cannot think what it is called. 
I know when I was told about it that I thought it was a good programme for those that want to do trails.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Foxhunter Endurance isn't as big here as it is in the northern states. I think there are several reasons. 

One is that most of the horses here are QH's so they are thickly muscled sturdy horses that are built to go all day (lots of fast twitch/sprinting muscle), but not to go fast constantly over long distances (slow twitch/endurance muscles). The second is the heat that is outside during "show" season is really oppressive and can be dangerous for both man and beast. 

Right now, we are trying to get in as much ride time as possible because the weather is already in the 80's. By next month, about the time the rest of the country is having nice weather, it will be in the 90's and the following month, into the triple digits.

The thought of having to trailer a horse for days (It is a 5 hr drive north, 5 hr drive east, 10 hour dive west, without a trailer, just to get out of Texas) for most of the competitions, beginner level, really doesn't appeal to either of us when she doesn't even know if she will like it. 

I think what might be more up her alley, is something like the Craig Cameron Extreme Cowboy Challenges. They have youth, adult, novice, intermediate, non-pro and pro categories and since Cameron has a ranch here, there are a lot of events going on in Texas. When her trainer was here, this is how he gave her lessons so it is something that is familiar to her. He set up obstacles in his arena where she and Cas had to do certain things.






#5 would rather use Caspian than either Cowboy or Bella, who are our only two registered AQHA horses; I offered her Oliver but, he is a bit high spirited and forward moving for her and I think (though she won't admit it) she is a bit scared of him. Maybe in time as her confidence grows...don't want to over-horse her.

She trained Caspian herself and, being on the small side, 4'10" at 13 yo, wants to show everyone that small can be capable and mighty. She really is quite proud of her boy. It sticks in her craw that the smaller horses get dismissed, kind of like smaller people in a lot of sports.


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## Avna

Foxhunter said:


> THEre is a competition in the US which involves endurance riding but with obstacles encountered for which points are awarded. I cannot think what it is called.
> I know when I was told about it that I thought it was a good programme for those that want to do trails.


You might be thinking of NATRC. Longish distance trails (like 20 miles) with judged obstacles. Conditioning and training are also assessed. CTT (Competitive Trail Trials) are shorter trails, more emphasis on obstacles.


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## Avna

I think the idea that everyone is equally talented just in different ways can be pernicious. It's like the Self Esteem Movement -- everyone is special. Well, if everyone is special, no one is. It negates the whole meaning of the word.

People -- and horses -- each have their own particular strengths and weaknesses. That's called individuality. Some are well-rounded, some are lopsided. Some are sub-par in all areas! That's a fact. 

Using me as an example: I am very lopsided in my talents. I have dyscalculia, which means the part of my brain which manipulates numbers doesn't work well at all, and there is nothing I can do about it. Manipulating numbers is not just math, but spatial relationships, maps, calendars, analog anything (took me until age 11 to even begin to tell time). I also forget all numbers as soon as I see or hear them. People with this problem develop secretive work-arounds, such as counting on their fingers under the table. On the other hand, I always scored 99th percentile in verbal and writing skills. When I was writing short stories, I won an open international writing contest over thousands of entries. I also have a plethora of art and design skills. So am I super smart or super dumb? Perhaps the wrong question. 

I use myself as an example because I am also an example of one side of a particular mindset found critical by psychologists. Generally people tend to believe either that
1. talent is innate, and whatever you are good at or bad at is fixed, you can do nothing to change it.
2. your life is what you make of it, and through effort you can become better at anything you want to. 

Because of my purely innate and lopsided set of talents -- I taught myself to read when I was three years old -- I am squarely in the #1 camp, whatever I may wish I believed. For me, most things are either impossible to attain or ridiculously easy, without a lot in between. In a way it is a gift. I can understand how some people struggle hopelessly and never get anywhere, with things most find only moderately hard to do, while also understanding how easy it is to become arrogant because what normal people find very challenging is a breeze to you. 

I think all social mammals must be like this -- gifted in some ways, deficient in others, and that we survive by pooling our resources, supporting others' weaknesses while drawing on others' talents. I am pretty sure horses in their natural social world do the same. 

One more thing I want to add -- there are less obvious but crucial gifts. The gift of energy. The gift of optimism. The gift of kindness. I don't have any of those gifts so I notice when others do. When I was young I valued creativity and intelligence far higher than I do now (because those are things I do have). Now I value persistence, common sense, and thoughtfulness a lot more.


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## Foxhunter

Takes you longer to get out of Texas then it does to get out of England - even with the traffic jams!


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## Avna

this is why.


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## Foxhunter

I just looked up the square miles of both, Texas is over twice the size of the British Isles.


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## gottatrot

@Avna, great post about talents. 

I don't believe we should tell people they can do anything they want if they just try hard enough. As you say, we all are very different. But you can look at things with different perspectives. I agree that so many times peoples' talents are things that we can't measure such as a giving spirit or happiness in all circumstances. 
I also believe some people might be world class at something they have never tried to do, such as swimming or playing a certain musical instrument.

I think we put a value on things people can or can't do, and try to compare things that are incomparable. How can you compare the value of being able to make a computer program with the value of being able to make everyone around you feel good? I've met some people with Down Syndrome who could cheer almost anyone up and make their day better. They were not good at math, or athletics, but what they contributed to the world was perhaps even more valuable. 

I think it's the same with horses. People value horses that are easily trainable, that behave predictably and are calm. My little Amore does not have these attributes that many people value in horses, but she has probably made more people laugh than any other horse I know. So many times people are coming to tell me things and laughing..

"This morning your horse was wearing her feed pan around her ankle." 
"Your horse keeps drowning rats in her water bucket. It has to be on purpose." 
"Your horse keeps standing in the bog up to her shoulders eating bulrushes like a moose." 
"Your horse wouldn't go in her stall because I put a different color water bucket in there." 
"Your horse spun around ten times before laying down to roll." 
"Your horse fell down and then lay there eating grass." 

People seem to follow this same idea about "anyone can do anything" with horses. They feel it is all about the training, etc. But some horses will never have the type of brain to focus on arena work or dressage or working cattle. Yet I believe all horses have value even if what they offer us is less measurable or concrete.


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## egrogan

gottatrot said:


> "Your horse fell down and then lay there eating grass."


Thank you Amore for making _me_ laugh heartily this morning!:clap:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

BTW, I wasn’t disparaging Cowboy or saying he has no value. Obviously, he does or I wouldn’t have bought him and kept him through his injuries, spent over a year and a half rehabbing him and kept him on all these years. 

Other people saw it differently which, is how we ended up together. Not everyone has the same measure of value.

He is a tank. He is a klutz. Not unlovable characteristics but, facts none-the-less. He’s a big white furry beast that I am glad to have in my life. He is more DH’s horse than mine; for which I am very glad after a rain.


















I have never met a horse who seems to enjoy being absolutely filthy as much as Cowboy (Talent?) and yes, he makes me laugh. I mean how does one manage to cover every possible square inch of body in mud without a mirror?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Sunday morning funnies (I'm actually old enough to remember those)


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

and some more


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## Hondo

Avna said:


> Some are sub-par in all areas! That's a fact.


Great post and I enjoyed reading it. I also have the NATRC site now saved on my desktop from the previous post. Something I have inquired about to some around here to no avail. I'm in a perfect area to set up something like that during the cooler months.

But to the quote above I have to say, " That kind of thinking can be pernicious."

Hopefully taken as a good humored jab, but a thought that I do believe.

PS: Because of my limited verbal and rote memory skills I did of course have to Google pernicious to find it's meaning.


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## Foxhunter

Reining - it is a talent that all the greys I have known have!


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## Hondo

Digging to the bottom of: "Why I have always "preferred" to believe that everyone has the same "amount" of talent, but in different areas."

Takes me a while sometimes to figure out why I think what I think. But here it is, I think.

For me to look at a horse, or human, or anything really, and decide that one has more value than another puts me in a position of judgement that I neither feel qualified to hold nor that I aspire to hold.

I will, at last, hopefully, end my comments on this subject.


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## Foxhunter

I wonder if grey horses cover themselves more in dirt and mud as a protective thing - white stands out a lot more than darker colours. 

The only white animals I can think of are Polar Bears, they evolved to blend in with their surroundings, stoats change their coats to white in winter to blend in. All other whites that I can think of have had 'help' from man or a flukes as with albinos.


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## Hondo

Foxhunter said:


> The only white animals I can think of are Polar Bears


My polar bear even has white eyelashes.


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## Foxhunter

Methinks that is not a wolf, although they can be light coated. Man had something to do with the genetics of that passenger!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Foxhunter said:


> I wonder if grey horses cover themselves more in dirt and mud as a protective thing - white stands out a lot more than darker colours.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree but, it would be the subject of a great deal of debate from the "horses, just aren't that smart crowd".
> 
> A horse would have to recognize first, that it's own color (sentience/awareness of self)does not blend with the surroundings and then realize that the mud does. Therefore, by covering themselves head to toe in mud, they have blended with the environment. Pretty advanced thought processes involved! Not completely out of the realm of possibility certainly but...
> 
> I suspect it might have more to do with insects than anything else. Some species of flies are attracted to motion, white stands out more and any little movement can be seen easily, thus, white horses are easier targets for biting flies?
Click to expand...


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## Hondo

About 7 1/2 years ago.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

She is a pretty girl Hondo!


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## Hondo

Most wimmen just rave over her but pay little attention to me. 

It's like Roy Rogers having Rock Hudson as a sidekick instead of Gabby Hayes.

I think I may be doing something wrong. But I really do like Meka and I worry not about the coyotes.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Most wimmen just rave over her but pay little attention to me.
> 
> It's like Roy Rogers having Rock Hudson as a sidekick instead of Gabby Hayes.
> 
> I think I may be doing something wrong. But I really do like Meka and I worry not about the coyotes.


You just haven't met the right woman yet! I would never date a man who doesn't have a way with animals and children. It takes a kind and gentle soul I think...

I worry more about the neighbor's dog pack. Dodger (the weim) has a scar from his neck all the way across his shoulders and about 6" down his back from the last run in he had with them.


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## Hondo

Meka can handle most dogs and coyotes easily. She doesn't seem to do as well with 6 foot rattlers.


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## Avna

The 100% white (gray) wild horses of the Camargue are a natural selection against the flies that thrive in the hot humid marshes. Apparently their flydar zeroes in on dark colors.


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## Hondo

Trails.............

The more I think about competitive trail trials as described by NATRC, the more I'm drawn to the idea for the benefits for both the horse and rider.

First rider in does not necessarily win. There are secret vet checks along the way, usually at the end of one of the steep climbs or the end of a section where horses may be trotting. After a 10 minute rest the horses are measured for heart rate and respiration rate. Points are lost if over a certain measurement. That is 40% of the points for the event. I'd like to see it at a higher %.

With that, the rider must be in tune to the horse's exertion level at all times during the ride. And to do well, the horse must get sufficient exercise to maintain a healthy state, which too many do not. And when the horse gets sufficient exercise, so does the rider! (which too many do not) 

And so it would seem to me that this type of a trail ride competition would be a real winner for the horse, which is not always the case for a race.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

It is spring again and summer is almost here for us. It will be in the lower to mid 80’s all week. In another month “normal” will be in the low 90’s and by May, 100’s will not be unusual. By July, every day will be in the 100’s-110’s. Unlike the northern states, our riding season is end of September through about the end of May. June-July-August, there are very few days where you are going to want to trailer out to ride all day. It is just too darn hot, dangerously hot for both the horses and the riders.

So, every spring, I start working on an alternative to keep the horses doing something regularly. In the summer months, we generally ride before 9am or after 7pm. Still not comfortable, as nighttime lows are still in the upper 80’s or 90’s but, it is doable. Summer is Obstacle course time!

Our arena is 90 x 120 feet of unimproved footing. The soil is a sandy clay with very little organic material and lots of rocks. When it gets wet, it is a sucking mud pit but it does dry out quickly because the soil is less than a foot above bedrock. 

Lucky for us I suppose, that significant rain in the summer is rare. Sometimes it doesn’t rain for months, making the day or two over the summer months we might miss riding, a non-issue in comparison to the tens of thousands of dollars in crushed granite and sand that would be needed to improve the footing. 

Each spring I design a course for the arena with training obstacles. It is great for those hot summer nights when you don’t have the time after dinner to tack up and ride out. I find that a half an hour every day (per horse) is enough to keep them thinking and moving, leads to less soreness and better retention than one or two long rides every week.

I pull from several areas when designing our course:

Mounted search and rescue
Mounted police training
Obstacle trail competitions
Extreme Mountain Trail Competitions
AQHA Trail competitions
Pics of challenging obstacles we have encountered while out and about

For each obstacle, there are certain skills involved. I listed each of the skills needed to complete that obstacle to see if our horses already knew the cues so that they could succeed. If not, then we went back and installed that button with training outside of the obstacle. The idea is to build confidence with the obstacles, rather than destroying it.

In some cases, if it was something they already could do easily, I look for a way to add something novel into the mix that made it more difficult; additional noises, movement, colors, patterns…

This year’s Obstacles:
*The dirt mound (loose footing)*
-calm ascent, calm decent on unstable footing
*The gate*
-side passing, ability to take one step at a time forward, back
*One adjustable jump standard*
-being able to line up, time the jump
*Bottles with rocks/pool noodles “Car wash” and streamers*
-pass through sounds and moving objects
*45 degree back around a turn/pivot box in the center*
-leg yield, moving shoulder and hips independently, cuing one step at a time.
*Pole bending*
-riding off of leg and seat, flying lead changes
*Plank and barrel*
-ability to walk an even circle
*Bridge*
-walk a straight line on strange footing
*Log jam*
-pick a course through
*Brightly painted Teeter totter*
-keeping your cool on a moving object
*Rabbit hole*
-an object coming out of a hole suddenly
*Cache your food*
-pulling a tarp into a tree
*Tire drag*
-gets horse used to dragging something both in front and behind
*Carry the water*
-side pass, lifting an object from ground, carry it to a drop off point

One of the things that became obvious on my trip to Pace Bend is that our horses spend most of their time in a rural environment. We don’t live in a neighborhood per se so, things like garbage cans, mail boxes, strollers, bikes, kids playing with a ball, speed bumps, joggers, toys etc are much bigger “boogers” to them than scurrying wildlife, rain slickers, oddly shaped stumps, tarps, rushing water, falling leaves, trenches, gun shots, smoke from a bon fire etc. 

This year, I am going to add some colorful urban type objects into the mix and change them out periodically. From past experiences, some of the horses seem to deal with those new things much more easily than others. Garbage cans, mail boxes, vehicles of all shapes and sizes, Caspian and Oliver see as ho-hum but, I think there are some other things that might at least give them pause. I just need to find them.

A somewhat funny or not so funny adage (if you then need to fix the damage) to building this course: Yesterday we installed five obstacles. All of the horses were kept out of the arena. Caspian was out with Ghost grazing and watching me work most of the day. In the evening, I needed DH’s help with a couple of things so, after dinner we went down to work.

Apparently, Caspian could not contain his curiosity any longer. We heard a crack, turned around and saw Caspian push his way through one of the boards that is mostly a visual barrier partitioning the arena from another paddock. He ducked under the remaining top board and came into the arena trotting around; started checking out each and every obstacle, “trying them out”, on his own, including, the jump standard.

His curiosity knows no bounds, literally. I think boredom for that horse, is a fate worse than death!

Here are the Obstacles I got completed or semi-completed yesterday:













































(Ooops, I apparently held the phone camera upside down when I took some of the pics)

Another one of the Jump standard + 1 Caspian this morning again, checking it out.












Oh, and here is a little buddy I found while moving one of the landscape ties. Black Widow, Male. In the south never pick up any object rock, wood, even a fallen branch, without checking the backside before putting your hands on it (quickly roll it over). Poisonous spiders, fire ants, bees (we do have killer bees, though thankfully, rare), pit vipers, scorpions and even more painful, centipedes, always seem to be hiding in/under the exact object you wish to move. Most might not be deadly unless you have an allergy but, sure hurts even days later! 










I will post additional pics as I get the rest completed.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Another thing I thought I might mention. DH tried to lead Cowboy through the obstacles yesterday. The sun was just setting, not quite below the tree line, casting shadow on about 2/3 of the arena. 

Everything was going fine until he tried to bring him through the “log jam” obstacle. Cowboy hesitantly stepped over the first branch and then had a pullback incident. His first in ages. He pulled the branch down along with the log it was resting on, which of course panicked him more. DH got a bit of rope burn from that one!

We got him calmed back down. I looked at the situation and walked him around to the other side of the obstacle, so that the sun was not in his face but, at his back. He went through no problem. Once the sun had set enough, we tried it again from the first side. Again, no problem.

The sun was not in our faces because we are shorter than he is, he lifted his head to step over. It was however, just at the right height to blind him and, apparently spook the crap out of him when he suddenly couldn’t see (you know how when the sun hits your eyes at just the right angle you can see glare and it looks almost like an opaque object moving into your field of vision?). I know that when driving home into the setting sun here, it really is blinding. His gripe was legitimate IMO.

This was a good example of how sometimes it is the smallest details that will cause a problem and what can at first appear to be a horse acting like an ill trained maniac, can actually have a logical cause.


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## Hondo

Whew! All that work wore me out. I gotta go take a nap now 

I'm so lucky to have mother nature do all that heavy lifting for me!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Hondo, I've said it before, you are indeed very lucky! 

We do have some good places to ride with natural obstacles close to home. The problem is we don’t own that much property and only a few neighbors are willing to take the risk of you getting hurt on their property (especially with #5 along). 

The upside is that while the rides are short you can make them quite intense by changing up whether you do it at a walk, trot, canter or even by stacking them one right after the other or taking them in reverse. For instance, going up a hill in one spot might be simple but, going down that same spot is a challenge. 

I remember back when Oliver was on his first ride out we went up about a 35% grade hill and he did quite nicely. Coming down not so much. He took one step down and then broke out into a full out gallop, weaving between trees, slammed my leg into one. I counted my blessings that my leg was not broken only bruised and scraped. Thank goodness my toes were forward and not out at the time!

When I finally got him to stop about forty feet later, there was a nice (Sarcasm) little rear thrown in. He had done so well going up that hill and up and down others on that ride that it caught me completely off guard; my fault. That was a heart attack moment and lesson learned for me. The obedient green horse I had at a walk, trot and canter was not the same horse I had at a gallop. 

Way in the back of my head, I knew this but, because he had been so in control the rest of the ride, I was lulled into complacency that his training was satisfactory. IMO pushing the envelope was the only way to find out what he still needed work on. 

Back to the arena to train a better "Whoa" and a better "Whoa" at high speed without the rearing. Then we worked that hill for an hour "No sir! Unless I tell you otherwise, we are going to walk this." Riding trails comes with different aspects of difficulty and some of that is very much up to rider choice of where and how quickly you go. That is part of the allure I think, trail riding is what you choose to make of it. 









































I was researching a delineation between Mountain Trail Competition, Extreme Mountain Trail Competition and Extreme Cowboy racing. Extreme Mountain Trail is much more relatable for me as the obstacles we encounter here naturally are most similar to that. So I think if I was to ever give trail competition a whirl, it would be that.

The best differentiation I found was on Mark Bolender’s site (he’s an interesting cat and I covet his training course).

"The more you understand the horse the more you love it. And the more you love the horse, the more you understand it.* It’s not about who’s boss, who has authority or respect, or how you can make a horse do this or that – but it’s all about “who is worthy of leadership” as seen by the horse’s instinct."* – Mark Bolender

"My focus is never to master the obstacle; I use the obstacle as a tool to master and to build the mind of the horse. In the right hands, I know of no other tool which can build boldness and confidence in both the horse and rider in the way a mountain trail course does."

http://bolenderhorsepark.com/about/training/ 

Essentially Extreme Cowboy Racing, is as the name implies, a race; finesse, subtle cues, and partnership are secondary to time. 

“Extreme Mountain Trail is similar to Mountain Trail but with far more difficult challenges in terms of the obstacles. It also requires a high level of finesse and boldness – and there also is the element of doing it all as quickly as possible. And the obstacles are usually much more challenging than you would experience on an actual trail ride or other horse show. They come at you one after another – and often together!”

What Is Extreme Mountain Trail? | Bolender Horse Park 

I think I like the combination of speed, complexity of the obstacles, finesse and boldness…..


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## Hondo

I still like the idea of secret vet checks where significant points are lost if the horse does not recover to a certain point within 10 minutes.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Most competitions have vet checks these days. Even some of the shorter endurance rides and shows. Judges are given leeway to flag a horse they suspect isn't moving just right at any time as well. 

This is an example of an Extreme Mountain Trail Competition, no time for a vet check.


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## Hondo

Right, but the vet checks normally do not assess penalty points and are not secret. In the NATRC the secret vet checks become 40% of the final score and the first rider to finish is usually not the winner. There is a 30 minute window in which the rider must finish to qualify as a finish. The other 60% is based on judging various various aspects of horse and rider.

The secret checks force the rider to be very very careful about pacing the horse and not pushing it too much. The whole thing seems to be built around rider and horse interaction without a lot of specialized training other than stop, backup, and sidepass. How the rider mounts is one thing I remember being judged.

The course itself is difficult to extreme as I took it. Not that many trotting sections.

The fitness of the horse in terms of heart and respiration recovery rates is key to the competition. Recovery is basic to fitness. That way fitness can be assessed without pushing the horse to it's limit.

They stress that it is not a race. I think of it as a fitness trials.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Oliver has heaves, so not going to be doing NATRC with him. He has good days and bad days during certain times of year.

That course is deceptively difficult. I like the technical aspect of it combined with speed. The rider just made it look easy and in a neck rope none the less!


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## Hondo

Have you ridden NATRC events? If so, what did you think about them?


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## gottatrot

We don't have any NATRC anywhere around here. There are a few in California I believe. I'd looked into them at one point, to find out more information about them. They are interesting, but I thought that they would work more for people new to distance riding, or people who like precision and details. For me, I thought it sounded too slow. You have to keep the horse going very slow, something like 5 or 8 mph. Keeping that average is what the ride is about. 

While I like the idea of the random vet checks, I also feel that at that pace if my horse did not pass the check with flying colors then shame on me because either my horse is sick or I pulled him out for a long ride after sitting in the barn all winter.
What I enjoy more is getting a horse fit based on their physical aptitude and due to lots of regular training. If a horse enjoys the work and has the right physical and mental characteristics, the horse will be happy going quite a bit faster than the NATRC pace (and me too).

The extreme trail is very interesting too. It looks very fun, with the right horse. Bolender has his course not too far from me and also has done courses for horse Expos around here. I'd like to try it if I ever have a horse with the personality for it. A big reason Arabs are so good at endurance is because many have this particular type of brain that does well with focusing in the long distance zone type work. Whenever I've tried doing lots of what I call "math problem" work with my horses, they get very worked up. We can do a few jumps in a row, or a few obstacles, but if I did all the spinning, backing and that focused slower precise work with my mares, they'd end up with their eyes rolling and an inability to focus on anything after that. 

The last barn I was at, the owner wanted to do extreme trail and set up some courses for us in the arena and in the woods each year. We could do the course at a slow speed, but I could only get my mares to a certain speed before they'd find the "math" too challenging and would get too worked up. Anytime you have to stop, turn, back, go sideways, it becomes a math problem and they lose focus. But they can get in a long distance zone very easily and watch for obstacles that way all day, weaving through trees, doing a spin to the side to avoid a sudden obstruction in the path, stepping over logs, flipping a 180 when we missed a trail marker. It's weird, but it seems to go through their brain differently.


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## Hondo

The vet checks are known in an endurance race, right? If so, then a person could cool the horse down a bit before reaching the vet check?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> The extreme trail is very interesting too. It looks very fun, with the right horse. Bolender has his course not too far from me and also has done courses for horse Expos around here. I'd like to try it if I ever have a horse with the personality for it. A big reason Arabs are so good at endurance is because many have this particular type of brain that does well with focusing in the long distance zone type work. Whenever I've tried doing lots of what I call "math problem" work with my horses, they get very worked up. We can do a few jumps in a row, or a few obstacles, but if I did all the spinning, backing and that focused slower precise work with my mares, they'd end up with their eyes rolling and an inability to focus on anything after that.
> 
> The last barn I was at, the owner wanted to do extreme trail and set up some courses for us in the arena and in the woods each year. We could do the course at a slow speed, but I could only get my mares to a certain speed before they'd find the "math" too challenging and would get too worked up. Anytime you have to stop, turn, back, go sideways, it becomes a math problem and they lose focus. But they can get in a long distance zone very easily and watch for obstacles that way all day, weaving through trees, doing a spin to the side to avoid a sudden obstruction in the path, stepping over logs, flipping a 180 when we missed a trail marker. It's weird, but it seems to go through their brain differently.


Oliver can last about a half hour on “the math problems” before losing that focus. I found that out when we were training western dressage. I had to keep mixing things up to keep his interest. After about a half hour of flat work he was looking longingly at the gate and the trails beyond. 

He doesn’t do as well with slow things over and over. To use your analogy of math problems, he does terrible with drilling multiplication tables. He does much better when things are coming at him rapid fire; Do this, now do this, now this, let’s head over here quick and do that. 

There doesn’t seem to be as much time to get distracted when there is a pending job for him to do different from the last one. Funny thing he is also very focused on the longer trails. I think that Extreme Mountain Trail might just suit him, Caspian and maybe Bella. Though she is getting on in years (21), she still has pep in her step.

Maybe not for competition, just for fun as it does look to be that...now only if I can get a course like Bolender's!


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## horseluvr2524

That was funny. I've seen that video before, but after reading gottatrot describe it as a 'math problem', when I watched the horse this time, he looked just like one of those nerdy kids that gets excited about math! lol


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> The vet checks are known in an endurance race, right? If so, then a person could cool the horse down a bit before reaching the vet check?


Yes, so they'll tell you that one loop is for instance 15 miles. So you know approximately when the vet check is coming up. Then they advertise with some kind of marker telling you the vet check is coming up in a mile or a half mile. This helps some people who want to have their horse already be pulsed down by the time they get to the vet check. So they can walk in the last bit. The required time you have to spend at the vet check resting only starts when your horse reaches the required heart rate. That's why you might want to use the time traveling instead of standing and waiting for the heart rate to come down. 

Mainly the vet checks are about seeing if the horse is tolerating the exercise. So the heart rate is only a small part of it. The horse has to have good gut sounds, no signs of dehydration, no sores from tack, no signs of lameness or back soreness and has look willing to go on. If you ran your horse too hard and cooled out because you knew a vet check was coming, if the horse wasn't tolerating the ride there would be signs of dehydration, poor gut sounds, or other soreness. So even though the vet checks are known, it can be difficult to get through. I've had both my horses have diminished gut sounds because they were too excited to eat on the trail. Halla can be difficult to pulse down because her heart rate skyrockets going into the vet check and seeing all the horses and activity. I'm pretty sure we have a much lower heart rate two miles out than we do approaching the check point. So we have to pulse down from the excitement of camp rather than the exercise. 

@Reiningcatsanddogs: It sounds like your horses would love extreme trail. Here are some of the obstacles our barn owner made. There are several I don't have photos of. She put a tarp in a big tire and filled it with water, and the horses had to walk through it. She also made this neat gate by nailing pool noodles into the side of jump standards so the horses had to push their way through the noodles to get through. 

Hanging tarp strips, and she put a fan blowing on it so the strips fluttered around the horse as you went through it.









Here I'm backing Halla through an L.









The coiled hose behind the horse in this pic was an interesting obstacle. You could step through it or go in a spiral.









I liked this little tunnel of branches. I wouldn't recommend trying it with Arizona type plants though. 









Feed sack alley:









Of course, this was probably Amore's 20th experience with obstacles set up to help desensitize horses, and she did all this stuff and the next week was as spooky as ever.


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## bsms

After months of almost no riding, I've had a chance to take Bandit out on the trails 5 times in the last 10 days - 3 times with another horse, and twice solo. I literally don't remember when we last got out.

He was, if anything, ahead of where he was last November. He balked twice. Once, he refused & we did 2 hard 360s, then I popped him in the gut with my heels and he leaped forward past the scary thing. Turned out it was a pile of branches someone had dumped next to the trail. Once he got a good look, he snorted - and has ignored it since. The second time, he put it in reverse in a narrow spot in the wash. I had to yank hard - very hard - on his mouth to switch his backing up into a turn. We then again did 2-3 full spins, then I kicked him again and he raced past the ferocious...tree stump. But as soon as we got past, I turned him and he watched as Cowboy, carrying my DIL, strolled past the tree stump. He snorted, sighed, and then we exited the wash a short distance later.

This is where the difference in personalities comes in. Mia would have responded to a couple of 360s in those situations by entering 'fight mode', and a sprint past the dangerous thing would have turned into a bolt. A year ago, I don't think Bandit would have gone past either object. But I think he is developing the trust and, perhaps more importantly, the desensitization to his general environment that he now is capable of going forward if pushed. And then figuring out that the scary thing didn't attack, and thus cannot be all that scary.

However, the desensitization part is pretty specific. I'm posting here because the pictures of noodles, etc got me thinking. They would be utterly irrelevant to teaching Bandit anything about trail riding. They would probably help teach Cowboy or Trooper to obey, but Bandit would view them - depending on his previous experience - either as threats to avoid or non-threats to ignore. And if the latter, then he would ignore those - but still have a problem if a ferocious tree stump threatened him in a narrow spot.

The general desensitization seems pretty critical. If he has an internal tension of 7 on a scale of 1 to 10, as he did when he first arrived, then anything extra pushes him near his limit. But as he has become more accustomed to human stuff and to narrow, enclosed-in areas of the desert - both utterly foreign to his previous life on the Navajo Reservation - he starts at a 3. Then something scary puts him at a 5 or 6 or 7, but that isn't so tense that he cannot obey. So he can now be pushed much harder in a scary place than he could have a year ago.

Happily, garbage cans are now mostly "old hat". In the last week, he has strolled past open-mouthed garbage cans, flapping their jaws at him as they ate their garbage. He went past a lady using a table saw to cut a metal pipe in her yard, the sound of which alone would have freaked him out a year or more ago, even at 1/4 miles away.

But the picture below would blow his mind:











He has learned to push into and past brush, but that would simply be different. And teaching him to push past it would result eventually in a horse who would stroll unconcerned - provided it was blue, and hung in the same way, etc. He could, with enough exposure, stroll thru a variety of objects like that...all of which would be meaningless if confronted with a peculiar tree stump jutting out of the wash in a place where going around with more clearance wasn't an option.

I guess that is where trust comes in, and he has developed some trust in me. Enough that he can be pushed to try things that he would have flat out refused before (to include bucking hard). Not enough that he would willingly go forward regardless of his fear (or nervousness). A series of obstacles like in the pictures would result in a ride involving a lot of spinning, of leaping past things, and of warily going around an obstacle with an extra 20 feet of clearance, snorting and intently observing the threat the entire time. 

And while he will never have the "Oooooh, what are we doing today?" attitude of Mia, he does have much greater reserves of courage and determination. Yet any one of those obstacles could result in a ride that most folks would find highly objectionable, to include using any amount of free space to avoid the object by the largest room possible, or spinning repeatedly before leaping to get past the predator. And if I taught him to be calm with THOSE obstacles, a new one - or something random on a trail - would once again create a dramatic moment(s). I could easily see him balking at noodles, then spinning around a couple of times, then sprinting past the noodles using any free space available, then looking with disgust at the noodles from the far side. We'll be at 2 years in May, and he is vastly different from when he first came. But the horse who will pick his way carefully between cactus, zigzagging constantly across rough ground, might well refuse to go past some green branches hanging on a wall. Or he might go past that, and then become bug-eyed at a banana peel on the ground. He would be completely unsuited for competitions of those sorts.

I think I understand the advice his previous owner gave better now. When he said to just push Bandit past things, he was giving good advice - once Bandit has some trust in his rider and once Bandit largely understands his environment. He grew up on the Navajo Reservation, roamed it freely with a herd of horses, had known his previous rider since birth...so his previous rider COULD push him the way I've been able to these last couple of weeks. But to get there, we needed to develop the trust and calmness to THIS environment first.

If we were transported to the northern Rockies, or a beach in Oregon, we would start out with the trust we've developed here...but it would still take a lot of desensitization to the new environment. It might be that a few years from now, we'll have the trust needed so he could handle that new environment largely on my say so...or not. The independent thinker in him will always be a factor. And trail rides are, to him, like a series of math puzzles. Easy ones he has done many times, and challenging ones.

He would probably make a very good endurance horse, if I had the endurance to match. He would be a horrible dressage horse, bitterly resenting the expectation that he would do a series of physically challenging things to no purpose since, after all, it would not result in him GOING anywhere. He would probably make a good jumper, within the limits of his physical ability, provided the jumps were spaced out over a mile or two. He would resent having them close together. In time, he might become a good solo horse. He isn't one right now. He sees purpose in leading the other horses through enemy territory. He doesn't see much purpose behind just strolling through enemy territory for fun. In his own way, he's a very brave horse. He'll give his best if he sees a purpose behind it. But he sours fast if he doesn't see a purpose...

And if I'm going to ride him, I need to accept that he will sometimes throw it in reverse, or that we might need to do a couple of spins before leaping past something. From HIS perspective, he is keeping us safe.


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## Hondo

Sounds like if I really want to stay on top of Hondo's status while Trail Riding I need to learn something about gut sounds and signs of dehydration to go along with respiration and heart rate.

Interesting about the heart rate shooting up with all the other horses around. Sounds a bit like the doctor's office affecting human blood pressure and heart rate.

When I get Dragon lined out in packing I hoping to do a few long hard days and do want to be able to assess their condition while riding. I worry about that.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@bsms I am so very glad that you are making progress with Bandit. He sounds most like my Cowboy who is “slow to warm up” to new things; If something is too new, too radically different, one might say he is downright terrified. 

Desensitization is a process; For some horses that is a slower process than for others. I don’t know if you had a chance to read some of the other posts from yesterday but, in one of them I posted two quotes from Mark Bolender that I thought is very relevant:

“My focus is never to master an obstacle; I use the obstacle as a tool to master and build the mind of the horse.”

“It’s not about who is boss, who has authority or respect, or how you can make a horse do this or that – but it’s about who is worthy of leadership as seen by the horse’s instinct.” 

I had the opportunity to watch a few videos where he was training horses for clients. One of the things he spent a lot of time on before ever climbing on their backs was hand walking them through, patiently taking time and letting the horses check out the course. I can’t say for sure but, it does appear from the videos, that this was done more than one or two times at different levels; investigation, encouragement to move through a single obstacle with due caution, then hand walking the course doing each obstacle as if they were being ridden. Only then did he ride them through. These are already trained horses not unbroken newbies.

I thought it interesting that trust with an unknown horse, for his methods, appears to begin to build from the ground, giving the horse time to thoroughly check things out, establishing his leadership qualities by giving them the opportunity to experience that while they are encountering foreign and scary things, that he has not, will not, lead them into danger. It is the first foundation of as he says “building the horse’s mind”. 

IMO once a horse has established that aspect of trust, then they become open to all sorts of things you introduce them to, after all, you are a trustworthy leader and would never put them into danger. If you say it is safe, then it must be so.

In our case, with both Caspian and Oliver, each of them spent months on the ground with us; Caspian because he was an early two when we got him and needed to physically mature. Oliver because he was recovering from being a BCS 1 and near starvation. 

Caspian spent almost a year, daily (and sometimes two or three times a day) walking through, around and over scary things both out on the property and in an obstacle course. Oliver did the same for six months during which I spent thousands of hours sitting with him in the pasture and if something concerned him, no matter how silly to me, I took him to it to investigate.

With Bella, because she wasn't my horse I again, spent months hand walking her, grooming her, caring for her very messed up feet. So the first time I was asked to ride her, I got that relaxed, "I'm all yours" response. 

Cowboy has a similar response with DH, who incidentally, is the one who took Cowboy for his jaunts during his injury rehab. He'll ride for me but, it is a different, more stiff, nervous kind of feel to it. 

I will swear to my dying day, that I think that time was crucial mental building block to the boldness that Caspian and Oliver display on the trails AND when exposed to new, completely foreign objects. I think if there was not a great deal of truth to that, a man like Bolender, would not be wasting his time on it.

I am not suggesting that trust cannot be first established while riding, only that this is another way and apparently, an effective way of doing it calmly, without fear, confrontation or struggles. Rather than showing the horse “who is boss” he demonstrates why he is the best leader. The horse is given the opportunity and time to draw his own conclusions about you and your value as a leader. Only then, you get on and reinforce that under saddle.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...I posted two quotes from Mark Bolender that I thought is very relevant:
> 
> “My focus is never to master an obstacle; I use the obstacle as a tool to master and build the mind of the horse.”
> 
> “It’s not about who is boss, who has authority or respect, or how you can make a horse do this or that – but it’s about who is worthy of leadership as seen by the horse’s instinct.”
> 
> ...I thought it interesting that trust with an unknown horse, for his methods, appears to begin to build from the ground, giving the horse time to thoroughly check things out, establishing his leadership qualities by giving them the opportunity to experience that while they are encountering foreign and scary things, that he has not, will not, lead them into danger. It is the first foundation of as he says “building the horse’s mind”.
> 
> IMO once a horse has established that aspect of trust, then they become open to all sorts of things you introduce them to, after all, you are a trustworthy leader and would never put them into danger....Rather than showing the horse “who is boss” he demonstrates why he is the best leader. The horse is given the opportunity and time to draw his own conclusions about you and your value as a leader. Only then, you get on and reinforce that under saddle.


I read those posts, but I was up at 3 AM due to indigestion and didn't contemplate them. I think I will mull it over.

Mia was always going to have a few screws loose, IMHO. When she had her mind, she was intelligent and very willing. But her very willingness may have led to her approaching things closer than she really felt safe doing, and then, when she lost it...she LOST it. It would have been dangerous to ask her to trot or canter past something scary because it would have turned into a mindless bolt. I truly miss her. She was often good, and when good, her willingness and trust and pleasure in being out doing something with a human was palpable. But she could lose her mind easily, and then was dangerous. She truly is better as a broodmare, I suspect, and being ridden in very open country. I tried very hard to find a solution but I failed, and I'm not sure anyone could succeed - not with her in this environment.

Again and again, my biggest problems with her were rooted in pushing her too fast. Maybe if I had spent a year or more walking her daily, investigating things slowly, I could have "built her mind". I truly like that phrase. So many riders discuss building a horse's "topline" while ignoring their mind. Because, as one book put it, the horse provides the muscle and the human provides the mind. Except the horses I've owned have minds as well, and are not safe to ride, not truly safe, unless the mind is trained.

Too much of the riding world approaches training a horse's mind as simply teaching cues. Once the horse knows the cues, the horse is trained. The assumption is the horse won't inject its own thoughts. Except, as many discover, a lot of horses do. Particularly on trails.

Bandit has made a lot of progress, but it also has taken a LONG time. Heck, he needed to learn to use his left front leg correctly and not to slap his front feet down, and learn to accept contact with a bit. Those took months. But those things are trivial compared to teaching him confidence - in his new environment, in himself, and in me.

I seriously considered selling my horses. I'd love to sell Trooper. My youngest would be extremely upset, but Trooper dislikes me - and after 9 years, I return the feeling. Not sure I want to keep him for another 10-15 years just because my daughter likes him. I wouldn't miss him in the least.

My wife and DIL both prefer riding Cowboy, and Cowboy is my favorite horse. At 13 hands, he is a bit small for me. But he is trustworthy and friendly, and has had some owners and experiences that made humans seem scary to him. I'd hate to sell him for fear he'd end up with another young girl who wants a small horse to learn barrels or other games that Cowboy finds overwhelming.

Bandit? Part of me still wants to sell him and try another Arabian mare. Part of me respects his stubbornness - which is what we humans often say of a horse who has his own mind and uses it. In his own way, he is a courageous horse. He will never be a sweetheart. He will never be 'refined' or 'subtle'. Those things are not in his nature. But he doesn't have much "quit" in him either. In a tough spot, he'll try and try. Perhaps I need to respect him for who he is.


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## Foxhunter

In my never humble opinion you should always respect a horse for what it is. 

As mother would say 'you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.' 

It is no good trying to change an animal's actual character. Some horses you can and have to demand, some you ask and others you come to an agreement with. 

I have no doubt that if o were riding Bandit daily he wouldn't spook nearly as much, mainly because of many years of experience dealing with such but hos character is what it is and although they can and do change when they gain confidence in the rider, he is what he is.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Psychology, even neuro psychology, is not a hard and fast science. It is fluid and full of theories and very few laws, not unlike horse training. Each theory can provide in its support, observable examples (often called repeatable results). There are ALWAYS, ALWAYS outlying examples that can also be pointed to. That is why a theory is a theory and not a law.

In that vein, I mentioned a few weeks back, Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. Well, quite a few horse people have taken that idea and adapted it to the horse. Here is one of them:











The theory is that until the needs at the base of the pyramid are fulfilled, then the next level above it is not of importance. 

In the case of the horse, a dying horse, because it is starving, severely dehydrated or otherwise ill, does not concern itself with safety only with being able to take its next breath. Same goes for a horse in pain. A sex crazed horse, will do dumb things, unsafe things to fulfill that need. Like Oliver hanging himself up over a wire fence one time trying to get to his squirting girlfriend. This is why it is often so difficult to ride a stud around mares in heat. It is a base driven need of the body; physiological.

Once the physiological needs are met, their attention turns to safety. Ensuring that they are currently in a safe state. This would include both with and without humans as well as environmental issues.

Next is social concerns (again, include humans). Establishing and then maintaining, their place in the social hierarchy. Maintaining stable companionship/hierarchy.

Then comes Esteem. Esteem is respect and admiration (partnership) it can also include self-esteem and consequently, observably, confidence. 

Finally, there is Actualization. Given the differences between horses and humans, that involves very different processes but, at the same time, it means the same thing; to grow beyond and realize one’s full potential; Curiosity, a willingness to learn and do, perhaps even a desire to please, are all things that a horse operating on this level might display. 

If you pull one of the rungs below out or even substantially weaken it, then, in theory, nothing above that matters or matters significantly less. Self-actualizing behavior is not a permanent state but, ebbs and flows depending upon the strength or weakness/status of the levels below it.

So, what does this all mean?
@bsms Using Bandit as an example (if you don’t mind), his leg would have prohibited him from going to the next level of feeling safe and certainly from seeking actualization type behaviors. It makes sense, that only now is he starting to feel safe and is also showing evidence of Actualizing behaviors. 

Anyway, just another idea to kick around in our heads!

I also ran across these videos from the Equine Behavior & Training Association in the UK, that some may find interesting:http://www.ebta.co.uk/videos.html


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## gottatrot

Agree with all of the above. Halla was a very calm horse when we brought her home, starved. Of course we knew her temperament could be anything, we wouldn't know until she was beyond survival mode. Many horses stay in survival mode for a long time due to pain. 

It was interesting to watch a variety of horses going into an arena full of obstacles. Some didn't bat an eye. Most reacted at least initially to see an area they were familiar with changed so drastically. Many horses just went right through the obstacles. Others took a little time to adjust, and then were able to do it. It didn't matter as much if the horse was young or old with more training or less. I could guess how the horse would respond based on their temperament. 

I think we often base how we feel about our horse's performance on an ideal. We really should base how they do on their own self and past performances. As I said, Amore remains spooky. However, I could take her into that arena, and knowing her well as I do, it was quite easy to know how she would react and to work her through everything. 

I knew when I first led her in that she'd be very startled to see the arena looking so different. I made sure there was lots of space, I gave her lots of lead, and allowed her to spurt around and look and snort for a bit. When I first led her by the obstacles, I let her stay at the distance where she felt safe, then work up to going close and sniffing. 

Once she understood what the obstacles were, I led her through them a couple times, then rode. But I know her limitations well. I'm not going to try touching her hind legs with something I'm dragging from the saddle. I'll drag it to one side. Otherwise it would be foolishly asking for trouble. 

I also know she will never go through an apparently solid object. She does not believe it is possible. So with the tarp curtain, I reached forward and parted it so she could see open air ahead...then she'd go through. But I'd never try making her walk sedately. It was scary and she had to be allowed to trot forward in order to cope.

Compared to the best horse that walked through and over everything looking bored, Amore would fail every time. But compared to the horse she was when I got her, I would not have been able to keep her in that arena. She probably would have gotten loose and jumped over a gate and escaped. So on the one hand, she'll always be spooky and reactive. On the other hand, we work together and deal with things that would once have been impossible to go near. Quite safely. Not safely for a beginner rider, but safely for us as a team. So there is value in doing training like this, if only to work on teamwork.

Bandit will probably never be like the calmest horse out there. But he can still be the member of a good team.


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> The theory is that until the needs at the base of the pyramid are fulfilled, then the next level above it is not of importance.
> 
> 
> Once the physiological needs are met, their attention turns to safety. Ensuring that they are currently in a safe state. This would include both with and without humans as well as environmental issues.


I question this. Always have. How hungry does a horse or human need to be to disregard all safety?

I think there could be enough hunger to meet a definition of "needs not met" with there still being significant attention to safety.

I do agree that, generally speaking, Maslow's hierarchy is in the order that most mammals order priorities. But because they are ordered into priorities I do not see that it follows that the higher priorities are not sought after simultaneously without fulfillment or satisfaction of the lower priorities.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

How hungry? Probably more hungry than any of us have or will ever know.

My mother was born in Poland in 1940. She and her family fled in 1944. On foot, three children, a two month old, a four year old and a nine year old. Grandpa was captured by either the Nazis, the Russians or the Ukrainian freedom fighters; we still aren't sure which, never heard from him again. Grandma continued the journey alone with nothing but the clothes on their backs. I asked her once how they survived.

One of the things my grandmother would do was to sneak up to the garbage dumps of the Communist or Nazi soldiers. Had she been caught she would have been shot on sight and the children would have perished as well. She would leave the children hidden but alone, steal the scraps, often spoiled and then scurry back to their hiding spot, where they would eat the squalid food. They didn't care if it made them sick at times, as long as they had food. 

Pretty reckless and pretty desperate. Safety though took a back seat to hunger and starvation.

When I got Oliver, he was too weak to do anything except stand. His eyes were getting that half dead look. He didn't care about anything. He trailered beautifully that day. Only once he regained his strength did he start having claustrophobic reactions in the trailer. Now, he was concerned for his safety.

I don't know how hungry?


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## bsms

Until a week ago Monday, Bandit hadn't been out on a trail at least since December (?) - I truly do not remember the last time we had gone out on the trails. Since early January, I doubt I've spent 3 hours total on his back, and all of that was arena time. In the last week, in 5 outings, he balked/spooked twice. The first time, even he didn't really know what it was. We were going forward, then backwards, for no apparent reason I could see. I HATE a horse who goes in reverse. I have lots of bad memories of Mia going backwards fast in areas where it was dangerous, and I concluded years ago my best bet was to spin her hard, so she would at least SEE the 10' drop she was about to take us over!

So after a couple of spins around, getting him to move forward again with no more pressure than my heels was, IMHO, a good thing. And once he SAW what it was - a pile of cut branches someone had dumped - even Bandit felt a bit foolish.

The second was the tree stump sticking out of the side of the wash, in an area where avoiding it wasn't an option. Again, I was feeling completely comfortable until he threw it in reverse. So as soon as we had room, I once again spun him - although it took a very hard pull to do so. But that was HIS choice, and I'd rather chance hurting his mouth than having him break a leg backing somewhere he couldn't go.

And after we did our spins around, he once again departed the round-about using the correct exit. Yeah, we got past the scary thing at a high speed, but he then stopped on cue and turned back to look at it as soon as we got by. And then got to watch experienced Cowboy not only stroll past, but watched him check out the stump for anything green to nibble on.

Bandit isn't stupid. He is learning. And I suspect he is learning in the only way he can learn, by going out and trying. And sometimes screwing up, and learning from his mistakes. Me too.

I've been debating selling him, but he impressed me with his steadiness. Compared to what he would have done a year ago, he was a saint. Maybe he'll give up balking a year from now. Or not. But I've done hundreds of spins and balks over the last 10 years, maybe more. I just don't care any more. If it happens, it happens. We'll learn and go on. Or go on and learn. Either results in progress. Which one depends on how afraid he is, and how much confidence he has in me. And us. _"It is the first foundation of as he says “building the horse’s mind”_. So we will build and go on, or build by going on. Both will build his mind. And his trust.

And with no more than 3 hours of riding in 2017, he is already at or ahead of where he was last November. I told @*Alhefner* that my horses often seem to consolidate their lessons from the fall over the winter, and that seems to be true again.

I think Bandit will become a pretty calm horse for a given environment and rider. He is already far more reliable than Mia was, or than she was likely to ever become.

He will never be a refined horse. I don't think he cares about subtlety. He'll give "_Can you hear me now_" bucks if he feels I'm not listening. If he gets frustrated, or wants to go a different route, he'll probably always make it clear. Very clear. On the flip side, he doesn't freak if I yell at him or man-handle him some. He'll dish it out, but takes it as well. Doesn't hold a grudge. He's a John Wayne kind of fellow, with hooves.

A sensitive, affectionate Arabian mare he is not! But he might well become a good desert trail horse. He isn't a soft horse. But the desert isn't a soft place...


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## Hondo

@Reiningcatsanddogs Wow! I've only read about that or seen it in movies. And poor Oliver! Well, not poor no more!

But still, I insist, I'm sure your Grandmother was extremely cautious about her safety while taking extreme risks to get food. That said, I'm fairly convinced she was not likely thinking much about anything above safety.

But still, at night when everything was quite, she must have thought at least a little about some of those higher priorities.

Your's was a very somber post.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Hondo
I have only had one hero in my life, that was my grandmother. She was an amazing woman. Born in what is now the Ukraine in 1912, six years before the Bolshevik revolution. Her father was a Duke (Russian System) and managed the estates for Tsar Nicholas II; we know how well that ended for the intelligencia. She was a teenager/young woman during the Holodomor in Ukraine, the forced starvation ordered by Stalin where 25,000 people a day died of hunger. Her brother was murdered in the Katyn forest Massacre. Her father sent to Siberia or some Gulag somewhere, the family was never told where. 

There are stories I grew up hearing regarding the cruelty and depravity of our fellow human beings that are not fit for public consumption.

We are so very lucky and blessed to live in this Country, in this time, despite our little issues. People have no idea.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I recently decided to volunteer at an equine therapeutic riding center a few towns away. I’m familiar with sports therapy but, not so much with equine specific therapeutic riding. 

The company my husband works for does a lot of volunteer work. You don’t have to participate, it’s more like “Heads up, there is this going on and if you would like to go help out, it won’t count against your vacation days.”

That is how I came in contact with them.

This group specializes in children with issues stemming from Autism to Multiple Sclerosis to brain injury and Veterans who are having issues repatriating to civilian life, depression, loss of limbs, brain injuries, burns and PTS(D).

I am really excited about this new exploration into a different area of horsemanship! Attention to detail is a must for safety.


Never too old to learn something new and hopefully help a few kids, veterans and their families along the way. Horses have given me so much over the years, it is time to give back by helping others access a horse’s special talents to heal. 

This is a video -documentary that AQHA did on this place that I am volunteering at. They were one of the first in the Country and are partnered with Fort Hood and Texas A&M. In addition to providing therapeutic riding they also do a lot of research and studies into the field of Hippotherapy (therapy using horses). Watch it if you have the time (<15 minutes). It is pretty inspirational, at least it was for me.






This past Friday, instead of going out Country Swing dancing, which is our usual Friday evening, we, and a bunch of other volunteers, gave the day to the riding center, helping to do maintenance; Cleaned stalls, windows, got rid of cobwebs, washed down all of the metal railings in the barn, swept floors, spruced the place up. No dancing for us last night, only so much energy to go around!


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## Foxhunter

Some of the best rewards in my life have been teaching RDA (Riding for the Disabled) it is so rewarding though results can be a long time coming - when they get there is is like winning a gold medal.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

A friend of mine is having a rough year. He lost his old friend of 37 years this past January, a great horse, to mouth cancer. 

They had to put down three dogs and then this past Thursday he lost his 6 year old horse to colic. He was there when R took his first breaths and then his last. R was his true partner. This horse was “the one” for him. 

Ed also had back surgery to fuse disks in his lower back and put in a steel rod for stability eight weeks ago. He won’t be allowed to ride for another 4-6 months. Losing R is hurting him pretty badly. The fact that he can’t ride for the near future is making things worse. He is in his 70’s and horses are his life.

Right now, he is going through all of the “what ifs” that we all do when tragedy like this strikes. What if I hadn’t had the surgery and could have been supervising the horses myself? What if I was spending as much time out in the barn as I used to be able to, could I have caught it earlier and made a difference?

If you would, when you find a moment to speak with The Man Upstairs, put a brief, kind thought in for my friend Ed.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I saw a series of posts on @gottatrot ‘s journal and thought that some of the topics would be relevant to post here rather than mucking up her journal. 

Growing up in the Midwest I know nasty winters. Having lived in the South for twenty years I know nasty summers. Because we have such a variation of geography, we experience a great swing in things from plant life, topography, to weather.

At first when we moved to this area of Texas, I was slightly depressed. Having come from South Florida where the average rainfall was about 53 inches a year, barring a hurricane year, to Central Texas Hill Country where the average rainfall was about 30 inches a year, I found myself surrounded by plants and a terrain that was foreign to me. I missed the regular summer rains that came every afternoon in Florida.

Gone was the flat, rock free, sandy soils, replaced by thin clay soils filled with rocks and nary a flat spot to be found. Texas was a land of extremes. When it rains, it comes down in buckets. When it is hot, it is really, really hot. When it storms, the transition is often violent with hail, flash flooding, copious lightening and occasional tornados; when you get frozen precipitation it often comes in the form of an ice storm rather than snow. It took some getting used to on my part. That is what we are good at as humans; adapting. 

People though aren’t the only things that adapt.

Unlike a dessert where you might find a few big cacti here and there, this area is a transition between the lusher forested areas of the east and the Edwards Plateau.










Our “mountains” are actually the remnants of a much older range, now eroded, that was formed when the coastal plains slammed into the Continental US, billions of years ago. It is a part of the same mountain range that extends through parts of Arkansas, known as the Ouachitas mountains. Therefore, we still refer to them as “Mountains” even though most people living in the much higher mountains of our country may think of them as they appear now, more as foot hills.

Anyway, as a transition area (Balcones Fault line), we have some unique things going on here. I remember one time, going through a particularly untouched area with Oliver and thinking to myself, I don’t know how the first settlers to this area did it. It was stifling hot with 80% humidity and triple digit temps, significantly upping the “feels like” temp. Buggy, sharp plants everywhere and all of the seep creeks had gone dry for the summer so no water was to be found. We get the “best” of both worlds here, desert heat and coastal humidity’s, without the relief of the sea breeze. Desert critters like scorpions and the wet coastal bugs, like mosquitos.

We get just enough water to keep the ground fauna and trees growing but, not enough for the soft lush vegetation. The plants here have to struggle to survive, the leaves are often thick, almost leathery and stiff with pointy tips. If you are not careful, will poke through your skin like a needle. They need to be like this to keep the harsh summer sun from sucking the water right out of them. Most of the taller plants that can reach the sun will have shiny, reflective leaves. Another thing I discovered is that the leaves themselves are heavy in oils. This makes wild fires burn even more out of control. We have thrown “wet” freshly cut branches onto a bon fire only to have them burst into flames, almost in an explosive manner.

Some of the plants you want to look out for their “prickle factor”:

Yucca









Mesquite








Devil’s Walking Stick








Augarita Bush







(delicious berries though!)

Bluewood Condalia









Texas Ebony Tree









Trifoliate Orange (it grows from the ground like a vine up into the tree canopies; nature’s barbed wire)









And of course, prickly pear



















Some of these things, like the prickly pear, which grows mainly in the open areas that receive full sun, are fairly benign because you can see them coming at a distance and can guide your horse to go around them (or in the case of prickly pear and Oliver, jump over them). 

Most of the others are not so easily avoided because they grow within the sometimes, dense, brushy forests you ride through and can catch you by surprise. There is a reason that western riders here wear chaps! It isn’t part of an overblown costume! 

In some spots, the difficulty of the ride has less to do with the gain in elevation or even the footing and more to do with the density of the obstacles you encounter. I find it much less taxing on me to do a six hour ride on a trail like this:











Than a one hour bush ride in something like this:








So why do we bother doing so much seemingly persnickety training off the trails? 

Why is it that a mentally quiet horse is so important here that we spend a lot of time and effort working on that?

Why is it that a horse who can focus on a task at hand for longer than five minutes, even on a boring, repetitive task is desired?

While speed is something I thoroughly enjoy, there are most often times and places where it just isn’t possible. We have one of the most diverse ecosystems in the United States (Sub-Tropical Swamps to Deserts of rock). At those times, I need my horse to be able to flip that mental switch from a full out gallop and the go-go-go attitude, to a quiet, focused mind, carefully navigating through an un-groomed trail without getting either of us torn to shreds or a thorn in the eye. 

They must know how to find their feet and sanity so as not spook/bolt me off the side of a cliff because they see a strange looking stump up ahead. They must be able to focus more on what I am asking them to do than what is creeping them out. If they can't we both comeback looking like we went through a fight with a bunch of alley cats (or worse). 

When we were first learning to ride out together and still working on keeping that calm control in a bosal, Oliver ran up out of a creek and ran me right into a wire strung between two densely spaced trees. Luckily I saw it coming and put my arm up before I got clotheslined in the neck. 









It is very interesting to not only think about the breed of horses most commonly found in each area, which still exists today (QH’s in the Southwest and ranching plains, Thoroughbreds in the “civilized” East, Gaited breeds in the central south) but the attributes and environments for which they were bred and adapted.

The Arabians, wide open, relatively flat spaces where you couldn’t take five days to cross the desert because you would be out of water in two. The TWH, a horse that could be ridden calmly for distance with a smooth gait both to town and in the fields. The Caspian (believed to be the precursor to the Arabian breed), a horse that used few resources in the way of food and water but, delivered the strength, maneuverability and bravery needed to pull a chariot into battle, sometimes over mountainous, rocky terrains. The Mustang, the survivor. The Morgan a horse who might be sent into the military and then back into the fields to pull a plow, pull a carriage or be ridden to the next town. The Quarter Horse, a horse who needed to have cow sense, carry his rider safely to town or to market through varied terrain and survive on what food was available.

Adaptation and diversification is one of nature's most amazing feats.


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## gottatrot

Those yucca are what I kept thinking would be soft until I brushed up against them.

Great post! So interesting to hear about how the geography and weather are so different in various areas.

Yes, with both horses and dogs I think it is very important to consider what they were bred to do (either selecting naturally or on purpose by humans) before you buy one. I've often thought about how Arabs have kept many traits that would have been great to have in the type of desert they were adapted to. My horses don't seem to need as much water as other horses, for one thing. But other breeds are far better suited for other things and other places.


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## Foxhunter

Interesting what gottatrot says about the yucca. 
My maternal grandmother lived in a big old Victorian house and by the side of the front door was a plant that had stood there since I can remember, and from old pictures even before I was a twinkle in my father's eye. It was in a big pot and stood about 4' long leaves with spikes like needles. Gran always said it was a yucca but other people said yuccas do not have spines. 

I admired that plant for its stamina. It had survived the hardest frosts, been neglected for a long time and still kept going. I had a love/hate relationship with it because I would go down to gran's and tidy her garden. She lived the right distance from a fish and chip shop that people had finished and threw their rubbish into her garden. 

I had to move that darn plant and no matter what thick jacket and gloves I wore, it always got me. Whengran moved in the us Mum and I cleared the house. My uncle asked if I wanted anything and I said the yucca. He agreed. 

A week later I went to collect it and it was gone. The only sign was the ring the pot had made. When I asked my uncle about it he told me that his wife wanted it so he had taken it. 

I took great pleasure when he showed me some vicious stratches and stab wounds he had from it. 

So, do yuccas have spines or was it another plant?


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## gottatrot

A bad plant I ran into as a teenager was a monkey tree. I had to mow the lawn underneath one, and it was so spiky you couldn't avoid getting hit. Can't say _all_ the plants that grow here are soft and sweet.


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## Hondo

Yall don't know prickly until you've been introduced to Arizona's Cholla otherwise known as jumping cactus. And you best wait a minute if snagged by a "Wait A Minute Bush".


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I had to look "wait a minute bush" up and the pics that came up (Senegalia greggii) is a bush we locally call "Mimosa" (Wait-a-minute Bush, Mimosa biuncifera). 

They smell heavenly and we have them all over our property. I really quite like having them around. They add such nice color in the summer when a lot of other things are starting to hibernate because of the heat. You are right though, they do have a way of snagging you.


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## Hondo

More common name around here for the wait a minute bush is Cat's Claw. I've never noticed a smell. Should be blooming soon I'll check it out. Several in my yard even. Horses avoid Cat's Claw but the absolutely steer clear of Cholla. No Cholla in my yard!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Foxhunter said:


> Interesting what gottatrot says about the yucca.
> My maternal grandmother lived in a big old Victorian house and by the side of the front door was a plant that had stood there since I can remember, and from old pictures even before I was a twinkle in my father's eye. It was in a big pot and stood about 4' long leaves with spikes like needles. Gran always said it was a yucca but other people said yuccas do not have spines.
> 
> I admired that plant for its stamina. It had survived the hardest frosts, been neglected for a long time and still kept going. I had a love/hate relationship with it because I would go down to gran's and tidy her garden. She lived the right distance from a fish and chip shop that people had finished and threw their rubbish into her garden.
> 
> I had to move that darn plant and no matter what thick jacket and gloves I wore, it always got me. Whengran moved in the us Mum and I cleared the house. My uncle asked if I wanted anything and I said the yucca. He agreed.
> 
> A week later I went to collect it and it was gone. The only sign was the ring the pot had made. When I asked my uncle about it he told me that his wife wanted it so he had taken it.
> 
> I took great pleasure when he showed me some vicious stratches and stab wounds he had from it.
> 
> So, do yuccas have spines or was it another plant?


I remember my mother paying a lot of money back in the mid-70's for a yucca when we were in Illinois. That plant was her pride and joy. I remember getting in big trouble one day when I decided to make rope (more like a string) out of some of the fibers that frayed on the edges. My father had taught me how his ancestors did it using another plant and this one (the yucca) looked like it fit the bill even better! She was so mad at me! 

The Native Americans here would dig up the roots and slow cook them to make them edible. ***warning, they are highly poisonous if not prepared properly!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

gottatrot said:


> A bad plant I ran into as a teenager was a monkey tree. I had to mow the lawn underneath one, and it was so spiky you couldn't avoid getting hit. Can't say _all_ the plants that grow here are soft and sweet.


I'm always looking for interesting specimens to grow that can survive our harsh climates. That is prickly but so artistic looking with nice texture! I looked it up and it is native to the slopes of southern Chile and Western Argentina, right before the desert. I wonder how it might do here? Might have to give it a try...I have the perfect place to put one!

***edit;  it needs copious rain, not for here. Darn.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Something that might be of interest, is that during the multi-year extreme drought we had a few years back, a lot of ranchers were going out into the cattle pastures and burning the spines off of the prickly pear with a blow torch so the cattle could eat them. 

You can buy prickly pear here in the grocery store and you will often see people parked along side roads with buckets gathering the ripe fruit to make jelly. I did that once, my family didn't much care for the taste though...picky, picky.

I showed up once at my trainer's to find him in the barn bute-ing one of the horses. When I got closer I found out why. The young horse had gotten a bit too close to a prickly pear and had the spines embedded in his muzzle, in some places it pierced the lips. Ouch! Live and learn!

I always worry when we are riding in the clear areas where there are copious amounts of young prickly pear and Oliver will just step on them, that one of those spines is eventually going to end up stuck in his frogs. So far it hasn't happened....


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## Foxhunter

Reining - your mother was easier on you over the plant than mine was with me! 

Mum had tried to get a cyclamen plant (indoors) to flower a second year to no avail. One year she managed it and had three flowers coming on a plant on the window ledge. Sally and I were arguing over something and I shoved her. She went against the curtains. 
That was it. Mum just said "Bed!" No argument at her tone. Sally went upstairs to her room I went to the bathroom. As I came out so there was mother coming down the hall brandishing the fire poker like she was about to throw a javelin. 
I didn't hang around but dived down the back stairs to the basement. Mum threw it as I ran and as she did said, "I hope that doesn't hit you!" 

It didn't, it embedded in the ceiling bringing down plaster and dust. 

Turns out in my shoving Sally she had hit the plant and broken all three flowers off. I asked whe she had gone for me and her answer was, "I saw you first!" 

She did learn to keep her cyclamens, I am not a great one for plants indoors so those that were here (many) are now in flower out in the garden.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@Foxhunter. 

No, my mother was not the javelin throwing type. She would just tell me that I was stupid instead. I thought I was quite brilliant and creative being able to make twine out of a plant instead of buying it from the store!


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## bsms

Don't have a picture, but the wife & I were walking on the 200 acres where I do most of my riding, checking out a section to see if we could take the horses there. Can't. The prickly pear eventually formed a long patch with no way thru, even for a human. So we checked out this wash:








​ 
Just past where it bends, the wash takes on a very different look for about 100 yards. It narrows to about 4-5 feet with vertical walls going about 5 feet high, then nearly vertical for about 10-15 feet further up. Even as a human, you realize there is no way out - a feeling that would be torment for Bandit. In addition, that section - about 100 yards long - had nothing but large, jagged rock as the floor. It isn't impassible, but it would be very hard on the horses, and then only get us to where the cactus grew too thick and force us to backtrack.

A lot of our trails are created by ATVs. They pound the ground as hard as concrete, except it is like concrete with lots of gravel thrown over it. I've noticed Bandit will often leave the ATV trail and follow it about 10 feet to one side, if given his head and the cactus and terrain allow. That is a big part of why my riding involves very little cantering/galloping and is largely walking. In the last year & a half, the groove beside the frog on Bandit's foot has gone from less than 1/4" deep to over an inch (I think, haven't measured it). He is now very well adapted to walking across rocky ground...but he prefers genuine desert, where the soil has at least a little give to it.

It is good Arabian country, IMHO. Although, with less than 10 years of riding, many consider my humble opinion to be worthless, if only because it hasn't include riding instruction in "proper" riding. My rancher friend in Utah has recently stopped breeding horses for his ranch, but he has spent decades preferring half-Arabians for work in country like this:








​ 
His ideal for a horse working this country is one that weighs under 900 lbs, ample Arabian blood, good hooves and lots of endurance. Riding 20+ miles a day isn't "endurance riding" for them - just a normal day's work. 50 mile days are not too uncommon. The ideal cow horse (or sheep horse) is very different for HIS ranch than for a ranch in Nebraska or Texas. This Army stallion from 1915 weighed just under 800 lbs, but had the endurance to keep going day after day in southern Arizona (and northern Mexico)...and it an example of what my rancher friend would consider near ideal:








​ 
I've lost a lot of interest in posting in part because I realize how different my goals in riding are from so many others. And, in part, because I think a huge number of 'trained riders' look down on those who 'just ride trails'. I made a now rare comment on another forum about how a bit worked well for me in part because my horses believe the primary function of the bit is to hold up the far end of the reins. It resulted in comments about how real riders knew bits allowed subtle communication, etc. But that IS my riding world. I can't remember ever meeting someone on a trail out here where the reins were stretched straight, other than for brief moments.

A few months ago, while out jogging, I watched two riders - one English, one Western based on their saddles - with slack reins, dropping into a wash, then pushing thru thick brush, then scrambling up a steep side and taking out across a section of desert without any trails. At a walk. With slack, trusting their horses. Their leg position didn't look like Maj Tompkins, but they didn't look like dressage riders either. Or jumpers. Or Western Pleasure. Or any horse sport riders. But their horses looked comfortable, willing, forward and confident, crossing a section I haven't worked up to taking Bandit across - yet! Plan to this summer.

The land here imposes its own requirements on any horse and rider that wants to cross it. Many of those requirements cross over and apply to horses ridden on beaches or mountains or through neighborhoods. And many of those requirements are flexible - I could probably use a dressage saddle as easily and effectively on Bandit as the western one. But if Bandit and I moved to Oregon, we'd have to learn some new habits - like riding when water is falling from the sky...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

The terrain, flora and fauna we ride in, can really dictate how much and what kind of training is worth our time to put on a horse as well as the breed we select. For us, in our environment, having good body control is important, as is having a calm minded horse or at least one that will go there when you need it to.

Culture (such as what breeds of horses are found in certain areas) is often the product of environment; environment, generally dictates practical needs over the superfluous ones.

For all I know Oliver might be part Arabian as Arabian enthusiasts have often commented on what a beautiful Arabian I have...I always feel bad saying that we aren't quite sure what he is, though he seems to me to be more than a bit muscular and big boned for an Arabian. He is what he is and there is not another horse out there exactly like him (or any other horse) regardless of the breed he came from. I ride him because we fit and he gets the job done, not because of his breed. 

Ed always used to tell me rather sarcastically "You can't ride papers. The horse either gets it done or it doesn't." as an ironic FYI, 12 of his 13 horses were papered, the 13th being a mustang. He bought all of them at auction.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I was riding out in the Rockies in Colorado years ago, everything was going fine until a hiker came along with two of the walking sticks that look like ski poles. Those were relatively new at the time. It was the first time I had seen them and apparently the first time the horse I was on had seen them as well. I don’t know for sure if that was what freaked the horse out though that was what the owner thought.

Horse started quickly backing up, crooked, slightly across the path. Well that path was pretty darn narrow with a drop off. Had I not been able to get control of that horse, by moving its’ hind quarters over, before trying to get it forward through the baulk, we might have just gone off the side. 

I was very glad someone had taken the time to train some buttons on that horse and that the horse had enough mind on it to listen. For all of the benefits that things like endurance or a nice gait might give you, the number one ability on my list for a trail horse is to have the horse listen to you, even when it is scared.

There are Arabians out there with good minds and QH's out there with bad ones. Find a good mind and you will have peace of mind.


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## bsms

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> ...the number one ability on my list for a trail horse is to have the horse listen to you, even when it is scared....Find a good mind and you will have peace of mind.


I agree. Part of why I trust Cowboy is that his really scared reaction is to flinch, then wait for his rider to tell him what to do. The time I've spent working with Bandit to convince him I know what I'm doing seems to be finally taking effect. He increasingly will go forward if I ask him, even if he doesn't like it.

FWIW, I could back Mia thru a maze of poles on the ground in an arena. But when she was scared, her backup was mindless. The only thing I found that would work was to immediately pull hard on one rein (usually the left because she was better balanced turning left) and have her swap ends and SEE what was now ahead of her.

Last fall, we were about 100 yards ahead of where this picture was taken, heading the opposite direction:








​ 

Cowboy was behind us and Cowboy spooked at something. Not a big spook, but he startled my wife. Being ahead, and envisioning Cowboy racing toward us (he wasn't, but all I had to go on was sound), I wanted to do a 180. Bandit, being the lead horse who assumes responsibility for the others, felt the same. I don't know if I cued him for a turn or if it was just a meeting of minds. My assumption was that I would get a thigh full of cactus because the trail at that point was barely wide enough for a horse's body. But I preferred a thigh full of spines to my wife getting hurt. So we did a reactive 180 turn, saw that Cowboy had just startled and wasn't actually going anywhere...and then we needed to ride forward to get to a spot wide enough to safely turn a 180 back on course.

I check my legs and Bandit's sides - no cactus spines. Looking at where we spun around, I have no idea how he did it. I've jogged by on foot since then, and see no way a horse can turn a 180 in that narrow of a spot - but he did.

Bandit has no "buttons". He has developed a good feel for what I think, and he always feels free to act on his own judgment. I'm sure he braced his back as he swapped ends, although it was too fast for me to know. We have NEVER practiced turns like that in the open or in an arena. I'm sure he would resent the practice since it would be hard work and he'd see no purpose to it. 

But he did it, and I'm sure would do it again. I think a horse who doesn't dump his mind (_sorry, Mia, although I still miss you!_) can do incredibly agile things, even though he hasn't been "trained" to do them. The idea that we know more about how a horse moves than the horse does bewilders me. Mine regularly move with an athleticism and degree of agility beyond my imagining. A horse who thinks "X" is a good idea can do X with a perfection beyond any training with cues, IMHO.

"*Find a good mind and you will have peace of mind.*"​
Very true. Bandit will never be sociable and "sweet" like Mia, but he has a darn good mind - and uses it. And building his mind, by giving him opportunities to try things and figure them out, and by trying to teach him that my judgment is worth listening to, seems to be working. He and I sometimes have arguments, but I trust him. Wouldn't trust him with my wife or kids - don't think they could handle the arguments - but I trust him with ME. And I think he is learning to trust himself to me as well.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Very true. Bandit will never be sociable and "sweet" like Mia, but he has a darn good mind - and uses it. And building his mind, by giving him opportunities to try things and figure them out, and by trying to teach him that my judgment is worth listening to, seems to be working. He and I sometimes have arguments, but *I trust him*. Wouldn't trust him with my wife or kids - don't think they could handle the arguments - but I trust him with ME. And I think he is learning to trust himself to me as well.


I'm glad that you and Bandit are finding your groove. I feel the same about Oliver, he calls 'em like he sees 'em. He's not the easily personable type of horse that Caspian is where every human is his buddy who means a fun time, though, he does have his moments that often surprise me such as with my little toddler grand kids. So look for those moments, those cracks in the armor, and cherish them.


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## EmberScarlet

Hondo said:


> More common name around here for the wait a minute bush is Cat's Claw. I've never noticed a smell. Should be blooming soon I'll check it out. Several in my yard even. Horses avoid Cat's Claw but the absolutely steer clear of Cholla. No Cholla in my yard!





Foxhunter said:


> Reining - your mother was easier on you over the plant than mine was with me!
> 
> Mum had tried to get a cyclamen plant (indoors) to flower a second year to no avail. One year she managed it and had three flowers coming on a plant on the window ledge. Sally and I were arguing over something and I shoved her. She went against the curtains.
> That was it. Mum just said "Bed!" No argument at her tone. Sally went upstairs to her room I went to the bathroom. As I came out so there was mother coming down the hall brandishing the fire poker like she was about to throw a javelin.
> I didn't hang around but dived down the back stairs to the basement. Mum threw it as I ran and as she did said, "I hope that doesn't hit you!"
> 
> It didn't, it embedded in the ceiling bringing down plaster and dust.
> 
> Turns out in my shoving Sally she had hit the plant and broken all three flowers off. I asked whe she had gone for me and her answer was, "I saw you first!"
> 
> She did learn to keep her cyclamens, I am not a great one for plants indoors so those that were here (many) are now in flower out in the garden.


I remember a few years ago when I accidentally crushed a few tulips with one of those rolling garbage cans, and my mom got so mad, she made me spend a whole night in the trash.


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## EmberScarlet

I'm going to try to spend more time on this journal. It's so pleasant, with a million things to learn, and I should really read more of it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

You are always welcome to join in!


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## whisperbaby22

Yes, I really enjoy the journal section, so many different ideas floating around.


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## Foxhunter

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Ed always used to tell me rather sarcastically "You can't ride papers. The horse either gets it done or it doesn't." as an ironic FYI, 12 of his 13 horses were papered, the 13th being a mustang. He bought all of them at auction.



There was an author, Robert Smith Surtees, way back early 1800s who wrote some wonderful hunting books all about Jorrocks, the Master. 

Jorrocks was a big man and his horse Xertes was not the best lookin horse, hos second horse was called Arterxerces. When asked about why hos horse was so ugly he would reply, " 'ansome is as 'ansome does." 

So very true.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> ​


I'd take this little horse, he looks like a great using horse. 

I for one appreciate your posts and insights very much.


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## EmberScarlet

Going to take a trail ride next Wed. and it's gonna be muddy, muddy, muddy and steep! Any tips?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Go easy, listen to your horse. They can tell you if footing is adequate or "iffy" or plain old bad. The one time I got really bogged down with a horse it was because I decided that the horse was being a turd in refusing and tried to push them through. Boy was I wrong! I owed that horse a huge apology. A bunch of carrots and a good massage afterward had to suffice!


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## EmberScarlet

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Go easy, listen to your horse. They can tell you if footing is adequate or "iffy" or plain old bad. The one time I got really bogged down with a horse it was because I decided that the horse was being a turd in refusing and tried to push them through. Boy was I wrong! I owed that horse a huge apology. A bunch of carrots and a good massage afterward had to suffice!


Sounds like a good plan!


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## whisperbaby22

This is something I do not understand, when trail riders say they insist on complete obedience from the horse. I sometimes try to point out that a trail horse is more of a partner and we should take into account their opinions. I usually get slammed for being to lenient. But I don't feel that I am.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

There are certain times when I need to know that the horse is going to listen no matter what. As a for instance, we were riding out one time with a group of about 12 when the last rider in the string got bucked off. The rider fell, horse spooked and then bolted up the trail and towards the road about a mile ahead. Not only did I need Oliver to not get crazy as the horse ran past, I needed to go chase the horse down and hopefully slow him before he got out onto the road and then onto places unknown. 

Oliver loves to race, will do almost anything to be #1 but, we needed to get the other horse to slow down and eventually stop rather than making a race out of it. When we caught up, rather than continuing at our high rate of horsey speed, he needed to listen to me, slow beside the other horse until we came to a trot so I could grab the reins and not listen to the instinct was telling him to win. 

I don't really have a good answer for you other than riding is a give and take partnership that builds over time. Some people I know are able to find it quickly with almost every horse (I'm not one of them), others never find it for a variety of reasons. For me that is a big part of whether or not you really "click" with a horse. 

IMO, I have to trust him when he is putting his foot down and saying "Nope" and he has to trust me the same way when I tell him the same thing. 

It starts, I think, with little things like, find your own way down this slope or we are going to cross this creek but, you get to find the best place to do that, and builds from there. I have found that the more you give them a free rein (pun intended) where appropriate, the more they are willing to listen to you when you do have something worthy of saying.

Not unlike young children and teens, too many rules, too much constriction to the point of near total control, tends to lead to rebellion

Over time, there is a balance that you find between the two that is mutually agreed upon. Two way communication and trust is established.


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## EmberScarlet

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I don't really have a good answer for you other than riding is a give and take partnership that builds over time. Some people I know are able to find it quickly with almost every horse (I'm not one of them), others never find it for a variety of reasons. *For me that is a big part of whether or not you really "click" with a horse.
> *
> Over time, there is a balance that you find between the two that is mutually agreed upon. Two way communication and trust is established.


I feel like that's a somewhat unpopular opinion as much as I agree with it. A lot of ''great'' horsemen believe it doesn't matter whether the horse likes you and vise versa. I believe that the ''click'' is important, and you can't just dominate them all the time. My favorite horse and I click really well, and he's an angek around me, but he's a ''evil brat child'' around others... LOL. I have a lot of good stories with that pony. Can't wait to take him to the trails someday.


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## Hondo

Here is a question that continues popping up in my mind.

Will horse that has been wild and feral since birth put themselves in danger of going off the edge of a steep trail when startled by something that appears threatening?

Not sure anybody knows a definitive answer to that, but my hunch is that they would take care of themselves the best they could.

So if a horse has been doing that for umpteen million years, why does he need instructions from his rider to keep him from going over the side?

I think I know the answer to that but am not clear enough on it to be able to clearly enunciate an answer.


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## whisperbaby22

I try to make clear that I do expect my horse to listen to me. I think maybe my thinking is clouded because as a kid I did ride for a while a truly "bomb proof" horse. I never really trusted him. If a bomb goes off near me I expect my horse to try to get us out of there.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Here is a question that continues popping up in my mind.
> 
> Will horse that has been wild and feral since birth put themselves in danger of going off the edge of a steep trail when startled by something that appears threatening?
> 
> Not sure anybody knows a definitive answer to that, but my hunch is that they would take care of themselves the best they could.
> 
> So if a horse has been doing that for umpteen million years, why does he need instructions from his rider to keep him from going over the side?
> 
> *I think I know the answer to that but am not clear enough on it to be able to clearly enunciate an answer*.


Perhaps you are correct however I might couch it like this...People don’t usually go around crashing automobiles into trees either but, sometimes it does happen. Because you are looking at your cell phone, air drumming to your favorite song, thinking about a project at work…any myriad of reasons, your mind is not on what you are doing. 

A horse might not intentionally go off a cliff but they might if their thoughts are more focused on that creepy tree dropping fluffy seeds out of the sky and just react.


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## Hondo

whisperbaby22 said:


> I never really trusted him. If a bomb goes off near me I expect my horse to try to get us out of there.


That's funny


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

EmberScarlet said:


> I feel like that's a somewhat unpopular opinion as much as I agree with it. A lot of ''great'' horsemen believe it doesn't matter whether the horse likes you and vise versa. I believe that the ''click'' is important, and you can't just dominate them all the time. My favorite horse and I click really well, and he's an angek around me, but he's a ''evil brat child'' around others... LOL. I have a lot of good stories with that pony. Can't wait to take him to the trails someday.


I'm at a point now can ride almost any reasonably sane horse. But I find a better connection with some over others and it has nothing to do with the amount of training they have or even how hot or difficult they are. There is something more to it than that. What? I wish I knew. 

You are right it is unpopular I think in part because a lot of people concern themselves with the number of ill mannered horses out there and attribute it to people being too soft. It concerns them so much, that they often go to extremes to deny any and all give with a horse and take a hardline servant-master point of view, especially with people they don't know. Most often their hearts are in the right place as they care about the horses and know that a horse that is out of control is likely to end up at a meat auction.

My trainer was like that when I first met him. Funny thing was that the more we got to know each other and he saw that I wasn't all soft serve ice cream, that I knew when and how to get tough, he relaxed and told me what he really thought!

The horseman I consider "great" are more along the lines of Tom Dorrance, Buck Brannaman, Sheila Varian, and a few others who, while they are for setting boundaries with a horse, also make an effort to "consider the horse" and open up a pathway for two way communication AND they aren't afraid to say it!


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## Hondo

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> A horse might not intentionally go off a cliff but they might if their thoughts are more focused on that creepy tree dropping fluffy seeds out of the sky and just react.


Again, I'm still processing my thoughts on this, but I'm thinking more on the line of conditioned responses plugging up the pipeline to the freedom of thought, evaluation, and response that the feral horse might have made.

I'll fess up, I'm being influenced by a Chapter I'm reading titled, "The Mental Cage of Conditioning".


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo, it might also help you to check out conditioned reflexes. 

My family all knows not to sneak up on me and try to “boo!” me because rather than startling, I will probably turn around to take you to the ground. I had years of martial arts training, primarily for self-defense. 

At the time I receive a stimulus, especially if I am already nervous, it never even crosses my mind that something might not be a real threat; stimulus -response. Conditioned reflex comes by way of associative learning (a form of non-declarative memory) horses are very good at associative learning. I suppose you can call it a kind of cage. But, we all live in a cage, it is called civilization. Some limitations are good for survival.

What is relevant about conditioned reflexes is that similar to an inborn or natural reflex such as a spook, you can bypass the thought processes of brain and go right to the central nervous system and to the physical reaction. Therefore, the state of mind and intelligence/brain capacity of the individual prior to the stimulus being presented is not necessarily relevant to eliciting a conditioned response. 

The first step is to create “muscle memory” through repetition of movement. Muscle memory is a type of procedural memory (not associated with the Hippocampus like declarative memory which is the type of memory stored and specifically retrieved), which runs below levels of consciousness. For example, walking, balance or jumping, riding a bike, eating, tying your shoe or even talking. Essentially what you are doing is bypassing conscious thought. 

Next step is getting that muscle memory into long term memory. Perfect practice makes practice perfect. Eventually tying your shoe comes without needing to be shown again how to do it.

Last step (which is somewhat simultaneous to practice) is conditioning/association of emotion and creating a proper habit. There are three components to training procedural memory: conditioned reflexes, emotional associations, and skills/habits.

I remember once I scared my husband, rather we scared each other. I was talking with friends and laughing with my back to him, he came up to me and playfully, though rather roughly, grabbed my pony tail. I wheeled around and was about to hit him, hard. I stopped myself in time but, I remember the look of fear in his eyes. “Where did you just go?” he said. The fact that he almost got hit didn’t bother him nearly as much as the look on my face.
In less time than you could blink, I had flipped the emotional switch from laughing to aggression, back to calm again. 

A rewiring of the reflex is what CAN often, though not always, be done with a horse to the more positive emotion of calm, with repetitive training and experience. You can override a natural response with a conditioned one and replace a reflexive response with a conditioned reflex, essentially rewiring the brain.


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## Hondo

Well, what I'm thinking about is a bit different than muscle memory or conditioned reflexes. I guess I shouldn't have brought it up as I'm not really prepared to really discuss it.

The mental cage discussed really has nothing to do with the cage of civilization which is of course required if we are to live a civilized life.

My twin grandkids, boy and girl, got their black belts before they were old enough to recieve them. Forgot how many years they had to wait. They are now 14 and teach tae kwon do.

I have not seen them display those kinds of conditioned reflexes. My oldest son, their father, stopped taking judo just prior to a black belt. Never seen him do any conditioned reflexes either.

Well, let me qualify, they all do during matches I reckon, but I'm talking out of matches.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

There is a bit of a difference between the training that you do for competition and one that is focused entirely on self-defense. I'd rather not get into why I chose one route over another.


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## Hondo

Judo became an olympic sport during the time my son was taking it, but tae kwon do is a self defense martial art.

There are things you cannot do in judo, just as in wrestling, but not tae kwon do.


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## Foxhunter

Reflexes can be 'tamed' in all animals mostly only through trust. 

First off, there are horses that react better to some people than others. 

When working in race training there was a horse that just didn't like me. I had no reason to dislike him, he never did anything wrong with me except on the gallops where he would never really relax with me. I tried all sorts of ways to get him to do so but it was never achieved. On the other hand there was a horse that was deemed 'useless' as a racehorse because he would never settle. Even on easy days when ridden out at a walk on the roads, he would be cantering sideways and in a heck of a state. The lads hated him. I started to ride him when snow was in the ground and we had to stay off the gallops. I rode him off hos martingale neck strap, pulling up on that. I had him walking and trotting relaxed. First time on the gallops he started to run away with me, I dropped my reins, pulled on the neckstrap, used my voice. He dropped the bridle and settled within six strides. 
Once on the grass gallops he worked with two other not so good horses, usually he would finish was behind them having used most of his energy fighting to get going. He left them standing. Worked with two better horses and ditto, he was way ahead of them. When he worked with two good winners, he finished with them. 

It wasn't that I was a better work rider than other lads. It was that he trusted and listened to me. He reverted back with other lads except one, who asked me how to settle him. I told him what I did and at horse went well for him. They won three races together. 
The stable jockey knew best and couldn't do anything with that horse but it was winning and he wanted the ride but the horse fought him all the way and was pulled up as he ran out of steam. Of course, it was the horse's fault not the jockey, he was to good to do anything wrong!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> So if a horse has been doing that for umpteen million years, why does he need instructions from his rider to keep him from going over the side?


My friend who stopped her horse from going over the side would say it was because the elk that came flowing down the mountain were going over just fine, and her horse got caught up in the herd mentality and was going over with them. 
But she wasn't so sure her horse would have made it the same way, with a rider.


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## Hondo

Well, I just ain't buying that horse wild and feral from birth would decide he was an elk and go galloping down a hill with the herd. But that said, I'm not so sure the trained horse would not join the herd or just fall off with an unclear mind.

Horse's seem to see and experience the terrain in front of and around them so much more that we, or at least I, do. I am amazed at times when I watch them running over and through extremely difficult terrain without a stumble or missing a beat. (that's with me on the ground) 

Since I postulate that the wild horse's self preservation instincts would have kept him safe, the question that comes to my mind is, "What has been done to the trained horse to block or in some way limit his self preservation instincts?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> Since I postulate that the wild horse's self preservation instincts would have kept him safe, the question that comes to my mind is, "What has been done to the trained horse to block or in some way limit his self preservation instincts?


Maybe....letting a meat eating predator climb on his back with a dead cow hide strapped to his back? :biglaugh:


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## Hondo

Funny, but I'm still struggling around with the concept of the Mental Cage of Conditioning.

And I recall both Henry Wynmalen and Xenophon exhorting for the horse to be trained in such a way as to preserve as much of the horse's original nature as possible.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I have two horses that are on opposite ends of the spectrum; Cowboy and Caspian. 

Cowboy is a horse who was "Cowboyed" at some point. At first, I didn't really want to accept that and came up with all sorts of reasons why he was the way he was; born that way, genetics, mentally miswired by nature. I didn't want to be one of those people "Oh poor abused Cowboy" and then let that color my approach to him. But, three different trainer friends and two different vets all told me that he had at some point been treated unfairly and not just trained but, "Broken". Whatever happened to him put him into a state of constant fear and distrust. 

What they meant by that was that the horse believed from his experiences, that a cue, didn't EVER have the possibility of good/pleasant outcomes. That whether he did "right" or "wrong", punishment was the inevitable end result. He could never respond well enough, fast enough, correctly enough to avoid the punishment and he just accepted that fate as a price to pay in his interaction with humans. Someone along the way "broke" his mind. Possibly, knowing the Hall of Famers on his pedigree, being pushed too fast in an effort to compete for the Futurity? 

You can call that flooding or just bad training but, whatever human words you want to use, it royally messed him up. Obedient? Oh yes he is! But, in a sad, sort of pathetic way.

He reminds me of a child who has been beaten within an inch of their lives for everything and nothing and flinches every time the mean old mister opens his mouth. Even the gentlest of requests elicits a response from him like you just whipped him. Some call that a well trained horse. I call that neurotic.

That horse lived in a state of constant fear of failure and punishment. He really is a good boy and I can still see that small flicker of hope in his eye and a softening of that distrust but, it has been a slow, though steady road back. 

Let's just say that now he lives in a state of disbelief instead of fear. Disbelief that he is being treated fairly and expecting that at any moment, it might return to how things always were before. He has moments of relaxation and almost comfort before he seems to remember "the before" and tenses back up. If there was ever a horse who was a prisoner of his training, Cowboy would be it. 

Caspian on the other hand was never treated unfairly. That is not to say that he was never punished or shown boundaries of behavior. If someone was riding him who was riding unfairly, I told them to get off. This included #5 on a couple of occasions where she was being hormonal. That horse was never made to pay for his rider's mistakes or bad attitudes. 

He is still very obedient, enough to be ridden by a novice child but, out of a healthy understanding of boundaries rather than fear. He is curious, friendly and very attached to humans. Humans are a good thing, they provide him pleasure, they provide mental stimulation and take him new places with sights, sounds and smells to experience and nothing can be better than that! 

Riding and practicing is not a cage unless when you train you fail to consider the emotions and mental aspects as well as the body.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...Will horse that has been wild and feral since birth put themselves in danger of going off the edge of a steep trail when startled by something that appears threatening?
> 
> ...So if a horse has been doing that for umpteen million years, why does he need instructions from his rider to keep him from going over the side?...


I suspect a BLM mustang is less likely to run or spin off a cliff, but living in the wild tends to self-select for thing like good hooves and a controlled mind. It still wouldn't be perfect. Bison don't strike me as animals who go mindless with fear, but an old hunting technique was to scare them off cliffs - "buffalo jumps":








​
Once afraid, wild animals will kill themselves while running places it isn't safe to run.

Domestic horses are often not bred for their minds, hooves, or anything else useful for riding safely in the wild. Mia would start backing up, and keep backing fast toward a 10' drop or large section of cactus. She could still be spun in a 180, and would still have enough mind to stop when she SAW what she was backing towards...but I have no doubt she'd be capable of spinning on a trail and falling down a slope. I often wished I had a few hundred acres of Sonoran Desert for her to spend a week or two in. If she survived, she would have been a safer horse to ride. She just didn't know what she didn't know.

But I'm told Mia will still sometimes spin very hard for a 360 or two, for no apparent reason. If she did that in some of the places I now ride Bandit, the result would be dangerous to her and to me. I really enjoyed her company, but I'm not certain she could ever have truly been a good trail horse for the southern AZ desert. However, I can see how she might ride OK - for someone who doesn't mind an occasional hard spin - in the open country where she now lives.

My own experience with bolting (almost all with Mia) convinced me horses lose a varying part of their mind with fear. I honestly doubt Bandit has ever lost more than 10-20% of his mind with fear, and his spooks have ALL indicated he was still aware of his surroundings and would adjust his reaction to the available space and terrain. Mia never lost her entire mind - I've heard of horses running full speed into brick walls - but she could lose more than she could afford.

If she got about 3 strides into a bolt, then she was off and running hard with very little thought. She taught me the truth of a statement I poo-pooed when I first read it: "*No one stops a bolting horse. They stop a horse who has stopped bolting.*" Try hauling on the reins, and you confirmed her fear. Call her name softly, and in 50-75 yards her ears would flick back...and then you could stop her with the normal cues. But her initial fear reaction caused a mental dump of the sort I don't think Cowboy or Bandit are capable of doing.

If Bandit reacts to something, he stays aware of his feet, the cactus, free space just behind him, etc. We're pushing the 2 year mark (mid-May), and I've never seen him lose his mind. Cowboy will flinch, or even jump forward 10-20 feet, but I've never seen him do more than that before he WANTS his rider to tell him what to do next.

I view trail riding as a specialty as distinct as dressage or barrel racing. Just as any horse can do some level of dressage, or some level of running and turning, most horses can learn to do some level of trail riding. I spent ample time on trails with Mia, but she was no more capable of becoming a truly reliable trail horse than she was of becoming a competitive barrel racer.

Bandit would never be able to go above the lowest levels of dressage. If I want to do arena work with him, I need to do 5 minutes of arena, then take a 10 minute break to ride on the road, then back for another 5 minutes. 10 tops. He isn't built right, physically or mentally, to compete in dressage. But he is built well for crossing desert - slender but tough. Independent, but he's learning to consult with his rider. And he's determined. Once he commits to doing something, he won't give up just because it gets hard. Stubborn can be a good thing.

He has the right body and mind for crossing desert country - cautious, but mentally stable. Horses for courses.


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## Hondo

@bsms With all due respect, I don't think the buffalo jump that resulted in tons of buffalo literally pushing those in front off the cliff applies to what I'm talking about, IMO.

What I'm trying to say is that I question whether 5-6 buffalo could be driven off the cliff. They would have a chance to take evasive action before being tossed off by those behind.

And neither does Mia or Bandit as from your description they are far far from a feral wild horse.

@Reiningcatsanddogs There is a retired horse on the ranch as you describe, ridden very harshly for many years by a cowboy on an adjacent ranch. The ranch I'm on agreed to take him in retirement because any two year old could safely be put on his back. I have been able to successfully get close enough to him to feed him 3-4 treats in 3 years. My grandkids walked right up to him. He showed no reluctance, only acceptance.

He has the saddest eyes that a horse could ever have. And he stands guard over newborn baby horses.

I wish there were something that could be done for him but knowing the cowboy that rode him and for the number of years, I doubt anything could cover up the bad memories.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Hondo said:


> @[MENTION=147673]Reiningcatsanddogs There is a retired horse on the ranch as you describe, ridden very harshly for many years by a cowboy on an adjacent ranch. The ranch I'm on agreed to take him in retirement because any two year old could safely be put on his back. I have been able to successfully get close enough to him to feed him 3-4 treats in 3 years. My grandkids walked right up to him. He showed no reluctance, only acceptance.
> 
> He has the saddest eyes that a horse could ever have. And he stands guard over newborn baby horses.
> 
> I wish there were something that could be done for him but knowing the cowboy that rode him and for the number of years, I doubt anything could cover up the bad memories.


Well, I've rewired children with big problems, so thought I'd give it a try with a horse. It is working but, not as quickly as I would like sometimes. 

I just take a deep breath, remind myself that impatience is probably part of what got Cowboy into this mess in the first place and accept what he can give me at that time as good enough. Mañana.


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## EmberScarlet

I feel bad for that horse...


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I do too but, rather than wallowing in his past as anything more than understanding how to help him move forward beyond that life, you can show them that humans don't have to all be that way and that trying and not getting things right the first time is okay, we just try again. Failure doesn't always have to hurt or be scary.

I think there is a subtle difference between sending a message to a horse that says "nope, wrong answer, try again." and making that message unfairly punitive. It isn't always what you say but, how you say it that makes a difference. It is a subtlety that is really difficult to demonstrate in any other way than in person.


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## gottatrot

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> It isn't always what you say but, how you say it that makes a difference. It is a subtlety that is really difficult to demonstrate in any other way than in person.


Great stuff, I've seen things like this too.

I think horses understand fairness very well. What messes a horse up is when people aren't fair with them. People justify punishing a horse harshly by saying that horses kick and bite each other. That is true, but horses understand why other horses kick and bite them. I've seen when horses kick and bite unfairly, and the other horses get very disturbed by it and avoid them. 

Horses will take any amount of punishment when they understand why it was given, and they won't be offended. If they know they shouldn't bite you and a bite results in being hit (even hard), they take no offense whatsoever. But if a person gives a cue that a horse doesn't understand and the person punishes the horse for it, even lightly, the horse will begin to mistrust the person. If this happens over and over, it will create a neurotic horse, waiting for the next unfair punishment to come out of the blue. 

Since the horse doesn't know why, he doesn't know when it is going to happen, so begins to associate every action he might do around a human with potential punishment. When the horse responds to pain, he is punished. So I've seen horses that don't communicate about pain anymore and end up being injured, even permanently. 

Such as a horse I know similar to Cowboy that just kept going out without protest with a screw jutting out underneath the saddle and rubbing on his spine, creating a huge hematoma. It ended up causing a fused, calcified lump. But every time in the past he protested about something, he was punished regardless of whether he had a good cause or not. So he'd given up trying to communicate.


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## Foxhunter

Horses, dogs and children will accept fair punishment as long as it is at the correct time. 
I know I was smacked as a child, always on my bottom, top of the legs or top of the arm, always with a flat hand. (From mother it left finger prints not just a hand print!) the only time I can remember being smacked was from my father over my homework when in primary school. Long division, I knew how to do it but not how to show it on paper. Daddy insisted it was right (the answer) but failed to grasp I wasn't showing the workings out so I insisted he was wrong. In the end he smacked me across the legs as I ran away! I recall that because it wasn't fair. 

Majority of horses are exceedingly forgiving for incorrect corrections. I have come across a couple that would correct you if you got it wrong. Then if you accepted you were wrong they would continue as if nothing had happened.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Down in the pasture last evening when lo-and-behold a strange noise came from the sky. Cowboy, alarmist that he is runs off for the cover of the trees. Ghost who was getting a good brush down thought for a moment about following him but, decided that since the peoples weren't running off and he was feeling pretty good, to stick around. The other four put their heads up and then once Oliver went back to grazing, they did too. 

What was the source of Cowboy's angst? The biggest darn horseflies he has ever seen!










I'm going to re-post this from another thread I started since no-one seemed to have any answers to it. Maybe it is boring or maybe it is a stupid question but, since is goes against everything I was ever told, I thought it interesting and would welcome all of your musings on it.

Can a leopard change its spots? Oliver grows two different coat colors. Brown and Black. I would have chalked it up to UV exposure and him being a smoky black instead of true black, except for two observations. The first is that the hairs actually grow in in two different colors. The second is that he is blackest during the time of year where he should be bleached out; namely June -December.

Summer










Late January-April (no he doesn't get much of a winter coat, his face and legs are always black)









If color is strictly the product of genetics as I was always told, then how is it that he grows two different coat colors? Not different shades of the same color, two genetically different colors!

Getting no responses on the Color and Genetics forum yesterday I set to work on my own investigation. 

I found this: 
Hair color is determined by melanin;

“Coat pigmentation is determined by the presence, absence or relative proportions of the melanin pigments eumelanin and phaeomelanin….. Eumelanin is either brown or black in color, but is thought to always be black in horses. Phaeomelanin is either a reddish or yellowish brown.”

http://www.horse-genetics.com/melanin.html


“The switch between eumelanin and phaeomelanin production is regulated by the interaction of the MC1R with either alpha-melanocyte stimulating hormone (alpha-MSH) or the agouti signalling protein (encoded by the agouti locus).”

If I am understanding this correctly, according to the above website, the type of melanin produced which determines whether a horse displays brown or black is determined by its genetic code, OR production of MSH, which should not change, right? So how is it that Oliver appears to create different coat colors at different times of year if this is genetically controlled? Are his MSH levels seasonal?

"Melanocyte-stimulating hormone describes a group of hormones produced by the pituitary gland, hypothalamus and skin cells. It is important for protecting the skin from UV rays, development of pigmentation and control of appetite.
melanocyte-stimulating hormone (MSH) a substance from the anterior pituitary gland of certain other animals but not humans; it influences the formation or deposition of melanin in the body and pigmentation of the skin."

Could it be that because the UV rays are less strong in the winter time that his body is producing less MSH and thus affecting his color? If so, why is that not more common? 

Again, interested in everyone's thoughts as my knowledge of horse color genetics is limited.

The dehairing of Ghost begins!


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## EmberScarlet

Oh, IDK anything about genetics, but the color change is cool.


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## whisperbaby22

It's my observation that horse colors have changed a lot since I was a kid, partly because of the testing and new names for all the different colors and markings. Also, people have bred for color. I could be wrong, since I grew up in an area that seemed to prefer dark regular colors and considered "pintos and skewbalds" inferior "mustang ponies". But true blacks seem rare. There is one near me, inky black year round, I'd get a photo if I could, but don't think that's proper.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

On the other thread, someone brought up that he might not be "smoky black" like I was initially told but, a very dark liver chestnut. Which would at least explain how he seemingly goes from black which is one gene and then bay-red another gene. 

Well, he's probably not a QH or Arabian then as I don't think liver chestnut is very common in those breeds.


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## Foxhunter

I had a pony that I always took as being black and just like Oliver she changed colour different times of the year. When you looked closely it was that she was a dark liver chestnut.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

SunnyDraco brought up that if the hair around his coronet is black and stays black then he is either a smoky black or fading black. 

I had always heard it was the face...both stay black on him so I guess he is black afterall?


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## gottatrot

I have tons to learn about horse color but I know there are a few liver chestnut Arabs. I've seen quite a few over the years in Arab magazines.








I'm not sure which colors change the most over the course of a year, but some I've seen that change quite a bit are grulla, roan and silver bay (not that he's any of those).
My friend's silver bay mini has a coat that changes from golden to chocolate, and his legs change from gray to black.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

There are so many beautiful ranges of color out there. I absolutely love that first one! 

Ollie’s “genetic” color doesn’t matter much to me as he is gelded now. I love him for his brilliant mind more than his stunning good looks! :grin: JK

I was more wondering the reasons he seems to so radically change color; namely suspecting that the grasses he eats in the winter/spring are different than what is available to him in the fall/winter.


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## gottatrot

@Hondo posted some information about how too much iron in the diet causes hair color changes. I think the research said this is the reason for the reddish coloring in manes that is blamed on sun bleaching. I think it's called hemosiderin staining; the reddish/brown color comes from the iron.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

@gottatrot; When I was growing up in Illinois we were on well water. Naturally being a strawberry blonde back then, over time, my hair turned less blonde and more strawberry/rust. When I went to have my hair cut, the stylist would use an iron remover on my hair to take the orange out. A lot of people use an iron additive with their horses, we don't. 

In our area of Texas, we are iron poor and lime rich. Our soils and even our water (we are on well) is highly alkaline with a PH of 7-8. Our hay comes from an area that is more iron rich to balance it out.

Even though I knew it would be an issue, I tried growing "southern" varieties of blueberries here for a while. In straight up peat moss, which has a PH of 3.5-4.5. They did well for a couple of years and then the water changed the PH of the peat above the acid soils blueberries like. They started to fail. Even with adding soil amendments, I had to change out the peat every 2-3 years, disturbing the roots and transplanting. Eventually, I just gave up and went with more native species. 

Now that you mention it, I wonder what effect lime might have on coat color...I'll check that out today.

Addendum: Found this http://www.horsechannel.com/horse-news/2013/04/01-copper-zinc-equine-health.aspx 

Oliver does have red tips...Copper deficiency! Now that makes sense. Not much copper here either!

Initially when I got him, we had him on a senior feed to put on weight. He did so well we switched him over to only a handful of a "low-carb" feed which has less copper in it.


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## weeedlady

^^^good call. I was just about to mention that my black goat gets red tips because of copper deficiency. 
I think I read somewhere that a lot of iron in the water (that's what we have) can cause issues with copper - keeps it from being absorbed properly or something.


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## Hondo

Iron Overload in Horses by Dr Kellon - Forageplus Talk - Your Guide to Horse Health


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

We don't have an overload of iron, as our soils are high in potassium and phosphorus which inhibit plants up-taking the iron, so I don't think copper absorption is the problem with the horses, more like a lack of copper in the diet to begin with. 

There is a supplement out there for black horses called "Back in Black" that I ran into a while ago. It was rather expensive. Looking at the ingredients, it was mostly copper. I think I can add copper without getting expensive! Just throw some sesame seeds or black sunflower seeds in there and probably will be enough. Thanks all!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I haven't posted anything here in forever. Not much off property trail riding going on as my Doc has a six week wait list to fit us in for coggins tests (can't take horses out without one and Ollie and Caspian's expired). 

I posted this over on @gottatrot 's journal relevant to a discussion on sitting trot and sitting a buck...

Don't laugh too hard at me, it was a bucket list thing I did for my 49th b-day! Lots of fun.


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## Hondo

Can't take horses where without coggins?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Not off your property. If you go riding off property you have to have to carry your negative coggins test with you and be able to present it if asked by a cop or land owner. Texas law.

 Equine animals stabled, boarded or pastured within 200 yards of equine belonging to another person shall be considered to be a congregation point. *All equine must have a negative EIA test within the last twelve months.*


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My mother came from a generation and culture where you were expected to “age gracefully”. Generally, that meant once you hit a certain age you cut your hair properly short, didn’t wear clothing that revealed anything above the knee or bare arms, gave up dancing to anything faster than a waltz and stopped doing things like riding horses for social tea parties and luncheons with other biddies at the golf club where you sat around and gossiped about women like me. You certainly didn't wear short-shorts with boots, ride mechanical bulls and shake your hips when you danced!

The way I see it, that attitude is what gets you one foot in the grave...all of the things you "can't" do anymore instead of all of the things you still have yet to do. 

I just bought myself a slide board. For those of you that don’t know what a slide board is….it’s the closest thing to skating you can do in your own living room. I had one years ago that I used for off ice conditioning but, I lost it in a move. Nothing but nothing I have found works your core, rear end and inner thighs like skating.










I have no intentions of “aging gracefully”. Welcome to midlife crisis as a gen-x-er!


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## Hondo

Arizona requires a coggins within the last 12 months for a horse coming in out of state, but there are no requirements for traveling within the state.

So in Texas ya gotta go to the vet at least once per year huh?


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## bsms

Last time my horses had a Coggins test was when we had Trooper brought down from Utah in 2008. They also are not "stabled, boarded or pastured within 200 yards" of any other horse, and very rarely (once a year?) get within 100 yards of a strange horse.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

bsms said:


> Last time my horses had a Coggins test was when we had Trooper brought down from Utah in 2008. They also are not "stabled, boarded or pastured within 200 yards" of any other horse, and very rarely (once a year?) get within 100 yards of a strange horse.


In Texas, it doesn't matter. If you are off your property you have to have a negative coggins. If your horse is positive and it poops somewhere and then another horse comes along and sniffs or touches that poop, they can become infected (very remote chance). OR if an infected horse is bit by a fly that bit another horse nearby recently. It is just the best way they have come up with for controlling the spread.

Texas is in the "hot zone" for EIA, Arizona is not.


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## Foxhunter

Both of my parents aged disgracefully and I have every intention of doing the same! 

My more, well into her eighties, drove Tobias's ATV around the field, first tiemshe had ever driven anything mechanised! Didn't take her long to open up the throttle and going flat out (around 25 mph.) 
She also rode Sponsor, one of the ponies, bareback and was cantering around the arena not moving an inch! The girls just couldn't believe it. 

Dad wasn't a lot better. The Downs on the south side above the town are planted with Holme Oaks the leaves of which take years to rot down. He tomwas in his eighties when the two of us went walking and decided to come down the hill under the trees on a bed of leaves. I won. 

Mummy had one of the panic alarms, a buzzer she wore all the time so of she fell she only had to press it and help would come. They tried to get Dad to wear one saying, "Well, what would you do if you fell over?" To which he replied, "Get up again." 

Bet they are both having a party the other side - certainly they will be having a laugh.


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## egrogan

My current trail buddy is an 85 year old who is a fabulous rider. She's got wonderful stories about hunter paces and day-long rides throughout VT all her life. She's a little more mild in her riding these days, but she makes me feel like a wimp about the stuff I hesitate to ask my horse to do! She has a small but mighty Lippitt Morgan mare to ride, and that mare has plenty of go while being as trustworthy as you'd want for your 85 year old friend who still goes hacking by herself.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

Foxhunter said:


> Both of my parents aged disgracefully and I have every intention of doing the same!
> 
> My more, well into her eighties, drove Tobias's ATV around the field, first tiemshe had ever driven anything mechanised! Didn't take her long to open up the throttle and going flat out (around 25 mph.)
> She also rode Sponsor, one of the ponies, bareback and was cantering around the arena not moving an inch! The girls just couldn't believe it.
> 
> Dad wasn't a lot better. The Downs on the south side above the town are planted with Holme Oaks the leaves of which take years to rot down. He tomwas in his eighties when the two of us went walking and decided to come down the hill under the trees on a bed of leaves. I won.
> 
> Mummy had one of the panic alarms, a buzzer she wore all the time so of she fell she only had to press it and help would come. They tried to get Dad to wear one saying, "Well, what would you do if you fell over?" To which he replied, "Get up again."
> 
> Bet they are both having a party the other side - certainly they will be having a laugh.


 @Foxhunter, it sounds like your parents gave you a lot of fun memories and in the end, all that is really left of us is the memories that others shared with us. I want the memories people have of me to make them laugh and smile and make them realize just because you are old, doesn't mean you have to act your age!


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## weeedlady

@Reiningcatsanddogs thank you for sharing your video. You make it look easy.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

I had an interesting weekend a few weeks ago. #5 is a July baby and never has had a birthday party because everyone is always out of town during the summer. This year she decided to do it before school was out. So we came to have eight other13-14-15 year old girls at our home for a sleep over. Most of them were horse crazed and wanted a ride. 

This left me with a few issues to work out. #5 is a bit of a peanut for her age. She is 4’11 and about 95 lbs. Works out great for riding Caspian who at 12 hh and about 700 lbs is a bit of a peanut himself. However, most of her friends were considerably taller and heavier so Caspian wasn’t the ideal candidate.

Cowboy while he is huge and could easily handle two hundred pounds, is a performance bred and trained horse, a bit on the spooky side and is easily confused by a novice rider without clear cues. What it comes down to is I can’t really trust him with a beginner rider, especially after #5 inadvertantly cued him like a roping horse out of the gate and he took off at a gallop; scared the crap out of her. DH rides him but, there is big difference in that CB is HIS horse. 

Then there is Bella. Bella is a sweet thing but again, she is performance bred with Three Bars breeding on all four sides of her pedigree. She has the sensitivity of a TB and the quick power of a QH. I eventually would like to get her to the point where she can be my “guest” horse but, I just didn’t think she was there yet.

Ghost, is my grand kid horse. He’s good for sitting on and a little ride on lead but, he is old. Retired for a good reason from regular riding.
That left me one horse for the girls to ride, Oliver. Yes, my “onery coot” as my trainer once described him. Up until now, I have been his primary rider. Only occasionally will someone else ride him and usually the people I allow on him are very experienced riders. Most of them will see me riding him, love the way he moves from a distance and want to try him. Oddly enough, these are mostly people who are English riders. Western riders seem to think he is “hot” and “forward moving”. He just isn’t what they are used to I suppose. The two riders who have loved riding him the most were German dressage riders where they ride mostly Warmbloods...odd. I guess he's not too shabby for "Just" a grade trail horse.

So, I decided to get Oliver out of the pasture and see where he was that day. Was he going to be full of energy and wanting to move out on the trails or would he be happy to just plod along? There is a half mile between our round pen up by the house and our pasture area so I put his rope halter on and got on bare back. He wanted to go, go, go. At that point, I’m thinking, this foray into novice horse crazed girls is not going to work well today. Too much energy on both sides….

A funny thing happened though as we made the trek up the hills to the house. He started to calm down and focus. We weaved through the closely spaced trees in the forest, walked calmly up the steep incline and ignored the neighbor’s barking dogs. As we went along, I began to believe… in him. He could do this. Three years ago, there would have been no way but, he had changed. WE had changed. Somewhere along the way he had developed a modicum of patience and so had I. 

As I got up to the house the girls saw the horse and started flooding out of the house, squealing and squeaking like only teenage girls can. Oliver perked his ears and looked. He was surrounded by girls all wanting to touch him and he was the perfect gentleman. 

I tacked him up and warmed him up in the round pen. He was riding well so here went nothing. 

The first girl J had only ridden rent-a-horses at tourist stops. As such, J had never really ever guided a horse independently in non trail environment. The concept of having to tell the horse where to go was a new one for her. She thought you could just get on and tell the horse to go forward and he would go where she wanted him to go. Oliver, being Oliver, kept drifting off the rail and towards me at the center of the round pen. We got her straightened out on the basics and she did manage to keep Oliver at the rail for a couple of go-arounds. Progress. Not perfect but, progress none the less. I’ll take it.
The last rider was a girl who had done enough riding lessons that her instructor started allowing her to ride bareback. She had walked, trotted and loped before but, always on a beginner’s lesson horse.

I was surprised that she had not yet learned how to combine seat, leg and rein cues so that they worked together to communicate. It took a half hour but, we got there with some consistency. When she asked if she could trot Oliver, I said ok. Oliver broke into a nice easy jog. Her eyes got wide, she lost her seat, her hands were gripping the horn and Oliver slowed back to a walk before finally stopping.

She looked panicked. I asked her what was wrong. 
“He is just so fast! It feels like we are going a million miles an hour! Its really scary.”

Now over the years, I have gotten very used to Oliver’s trots. All four of them. He had given her his slowest trot. It is the easiest, most comfortable trot to ride and his preferred pace, even over a walk. When we ride trails (vs. bush riding), it is the pace that we “hit and sit” for miles. I had never really stopped that day to think of how differently he moves from a QH and how that might feel to a rider who has never ridden anything but. He really covers some ground with his reach.

Since I have figured out how to post video, here is a very short clip that I taped two years ago or so ago at my trainer’s place of his easy jog. It isn’t as constant as I would like since I was holding the phone and trying to keep him in frame while also trying to keep him moving while free lunging. I was giving him mixed body signals, the poor boy. Anyway, it will give you an idea of how he moves. The round pen is 50' round.






I realized that day, how our own expectations of “normal” can really color our reactions. I also realized the importance for novice riders to experience a number of different horses of different breeds rather than just always riding the same horses. 

Oliver surprised me that day. He exceeded my expectations with the novice riders and even though he might have challenged them a bit initially, once they got with the cues, he did really well listening to them. I think it is time for #5 to start riding him on a regular basis so she can get used to the differences between Caspian, the QH's and Oliver.


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## Foxhunter

What a wonderful experience for all of you!


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## jaydee

This journal has been closed due to prolonged lack of participation by the author. Journals that have no active participation by the author for a period of time greater than 18 months will be considered abandoned and will be closed until the author asks for them to be reopened.


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