# Bucking and attitude on the lunge



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As you say, she is giving you the finger.

You need to get after her more, stop the 'attitude' by making her move up a gear or two when she does. 

Keep her trotting at a good pace, canter her, and if she bucks, crack that lunge whip across her hind end, don't threaten do it. 

Make her break into a good sweat and she will think twice about giving you attitude.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

OK, thanks. I hadn't got after her seriously before because until yesterday I wasn't too sure if it was just attitude or nerves as well. well When she starts the bucking she gets hyped up and ends up being nervous, so I es finding it hard to know.

Also, seeing as she is having an issue with nerviness we are working on relaxation. I didn't want to punish her for attitude if actually she is just scared, and make her worse. I tend to overthink this stuff and in the end I am just confused :shock:

But if you think it is time to up the stakes and tell her to cut the bs, I will do just that.

Out of interest, last time I rode her she started hopping a bit and so we did a real long trot. Afterwards she was much more relaxed and reasonable. I guess she needs more wet saddle pads than I can achieve at present (time constraints :-( )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Subbing, having same problem with attitude on lunge ! Only mines facing up, ears back and nodding head at me!


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## MomH (Sep 27, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Subbing, having same problem with attitude on lunge ! Only mines facing up, ears back and nodding head at me!


Same thing, get after her HARD. Just remember to stay safe as she is being confrontational. When she's looking at you with ears forward, then she's being respectful.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

MomH said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> > Subbing, having same problem with attitude on lunge ! Only mines facing up, ears back and nodding head at me!
> ...


Ive done that , made him do a full 360 of disengaging hind quarters and then asked him to move off again but same attitude next time.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Firstly, have you ruled out pain and saddle fit? It seems strange that a horse who worked so well before is now having issues. I would rule that out in the first instance.

Secondly, when you work her on the lunge, look at getting some triangle reins, attach in the middle of the girth, through the front legs, the bit and attaches to the side of the saddle either side. They don't have to be tight. By biggest bug is when people lunge, but don't work the horse. The horse is still working, and needs to see it as a job. My horses have always been taught to stand whilst I set them up, then to walk away from me before we start working. They also stand on the track so I can approach and tighten/fix/ do anything. They aren't scared of the whip, they're respectful.

Wear gloves. The first sign of attitude, you send them forward. When they decide they've done enough, send them again. Watch your body language. When I drive, my "inside" shoulder comes back, opening my "outside" shoulder and I drive forward with the whip, if they get assy, then I take a step forward (not close in case a hoof goes flying) and crack the whip. When they slow down, I send them forward for a couple more rounds and bring them back and ignore what had happened and continue what I was doing before. Asking the horse to open up in a trot or canter is hard in a lunge pen, I prefer to lunge whole school and walk with the horse to encourage a more engaged hind end. If I want the horse to slow down, I remove the whip from the equation (point to the floor or behind me) and my inside shoulder comes forward to "block" their shoulder. I have dealt with some asses when lunging, but after a bit of sweat and huffing and puffing we get there. It's another way to reaffirm your position as leader- you're asking the horse to work, and it will work. Play time is their field time.

I also thread the lunge line through the inside bit, over the ears and clip to the outside ring of the bit. It gives me better control to turn their head when they're ignoring me, and to disengage stupid behviour from the front. If a horse is really ****y, then I go through the inside bit ring and attach to the girth- but that is only in extreme cases and thankfully not something I've had to deal with often.


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## Skipka (Feb 10, 2011)

I recognise all the things you are saying! I am just backing my 4 year old mare and I get plenty of attitude when I'm trying to lunge her! :evil: She used to turn in towards me and refuse to let me get behind the saddle area to send her forwards. She is a quick, smart little mare so I have had to use brain rather than brawn to get round problems with her. 

If I try to get tough with her she gets worse, so for this reason I now always double-line lunge. I lunge off a snaffle bridle and have the reins running through the stirrups. This way I can switch directions quickly to the outside and if she tries to turn in, or start bucking, I can keep her out on the circle by using the outside rein. We also mix things up a bit, to stop her getting bored. I will do some work on a circle then we will go off and perhaps long-rein over some poles, then come back to circles. She seems to enjoy the variety. I used to carry a whip as well but don't need it now. 

I also use my voice - this might be useful for your mare if her sight is not too good in one eye. When I ask her for a transition I back it up with my voice and praise her when she does well. Likewise, when she messes about, I get after her vocally as well as physically!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

First off always remember that there is more than one way to skin a cat - as the old saying goes! 

When a horse gets nervous or hyper some people are far more inclined to take the softly softly route, this very rarely ever works and can take weeks and weeks to achieve what would take an experienced horse person who has worked with like horses, one or two sessions to sort out with hard but fair treatment. 

Don't be frightened to get a sweat on a horse, of it is messing around work it harder, faster and longer then you would normally. Get it breathing hard, reward with resting when it has done something you have asked it and then do it again and again until it is accepting that you are not going to take its messing with you.

Watch for the minuscule reaction and correct that before it has time to carry through. Soon, you will be able to do it with voice alone.

They will think far more of you for taking charge than of they can mess with you.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> First off always remember that there is more than one way to skin a cat - as the old saying goes!
> 
> When a horse gets nervous or hyper some people are far more inclined to take the softly softly route, this very rarely ever works and can take weeks and weeks to achieve what would take an experienced horse person who has worked with like horses, one or two sessions to sort out with hard but fair treatment.
> 
> ...


I agree !


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

How long are you lunging her for, and how often?

I see too many people that overuse this, to the point that the horse is sick and tired of it, and will act up because of that.

Could be horse just sees no point in it, and that is what you are seeing.


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## MomH (Sep 27, 2015)

Rainaisabelle said:


> Ive done that , made him do a full 360 of disengaging hind quarters and then asked him to move off again but same attitude next time.


Sometimes a 360 is not enough (and sometimes it's too much). Make him think your going to eat him if he doesn't give you some respect. 

With out actually seeing the horse, sometimes it's difficult to diagnose what the problem truly is. So, I am only going on what you have written.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

MomH said:


> Rainaisabelle said:
> 
> 
> > Ive done that , made him do a full 360 of disengaging hind quarters and then asked him to move off again but same attitude next time.
> ...


I agree thank you, I'll see how we go tomorrow. But I feel bad for taking over any small part of the post so back to the OP!


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## MomH (Sep 27, 2015)

Palomine said:


> How long are you lunging her for, and how often?
> 
> I see too many people that overuse this, to the point that the horse is sick and tired of it, and will act up because of that.
> 
> Could be horse just sees no point in it, and that is what you are seeing.


This is so true! I know a woman who all she ever did was lunge her horse. He was very fit, but didn't respect her one bit.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Palomine, I explained in my first past why I am lunging her at present and that I don't lunge any longer than 10 minutes. I don't see any point in routine lunging either, I am just doing this now as a way to work through her barn sour issue. She might not see much point in it but I don't think 10 minutes of attention on the lunge two or three times a week is unreasonable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

DuffyDuck said:


> Firstly, have you ruled out pain and saddle fit? It seems strange that a horse who worked so well before is now having issues. I would rule that out in the first instance.


The whole business has had me pondering fore over a month now. I don't think it is pain or saddle fit because 1) she bucks just the same if I line her without a saddle, and 2) she trots and canters nicely under saddle when she is settled and unstressed.

I believe the trigger for her change in behaviour is genuine fear, which its now combined with a defiant "make me!" attitude. Hence my desire to tread carefully with her in case I confuse attitude and fear and get too heavy - handed art the wrong moment. But though the trigger was an intense fear reaction, I now realise things started to go wrong six months ago, but I didn't take the tiny danger signals seriously. When trotting or cantering, she would give these occasional snaky-neck head shakes, the same as she does now on the lunge. This started to become a habit and I would correct her with a quick jerk on the reins and keep going forward. The corrections didn't seen to make any difference. Then she started throwing in the occasional buck under saddle at trot or canter, always when excited or nervous. I corrected as for the head-shaking but no real improvement. 

Two months ago she has a big fright over a dirt bike, followed by a couple of stressful rides, and all of a sudden she went barn sour on me. Like she throws her head up and threatens to rear if we go 100m from the barn. Hence the groundwork and lunging.

If you, or anyone else, have any interpretations of her behaviour from what I have explained, I'd be interested to hear them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Snaky head shakes, to me, sound like she is trying to stretch out of discomfort. I would really, really advise getting her saddle checked, and at this point, also her back. 

It may be that this initial fear behaviour, and your uneasiness to push her through it, has manifested itself in to attitude. 

The lunge, aside from pain, is definite attitude.

The barn sourness is also attitude (thought I am not experienced enough to give you advice on this, but there are plenty of threads and I believe Cherie has given great advice in the past!). I am scared out of my wits to hack. I hate it, I hate being in the big open and the what ifs... on an organised trail with horses that do it day in day out, I'm fine. My old school master used to live for hacking with his previous owner, and I'd had a great lesson so decided to cool him off on a long rein. As I was leaving the yard, his field buddy called out and he flipped a lid at me. We circled, reared, bucked and shot backwards. I was in tears, and I persisted. I disengaged his hind, and his front and kept pushing, we'd nearly get out of the gate and he'd start again. When we finally got out of the gate, my reins went long (and I did hold on to my jesus strap) and tried to calm myself down- we then had a fantastic 15 minute walk and had few issues after that. However, I am not condoning riding a rearing horse through that (especially not on concrete as I did... very foolish).

Once pain has been ruled out, I think it's time to re-establish your partnership with your horse. Respect and trust, respect for you and trust that you aren't going to let her be eaten by dirt bikes. This means pushing her forward through things she doesn't want to do.

I would begin with making her lunge, and it will take longer than 10 minutes to get her brain on you.. I'd say twice that. Leave it on a good note. Have you tried leading her out in hand (with helmet and gloves on)? Make it work. Where she decides she's barn sour, then work her. Backwards, turns, forward, halt. Make her do these things and get her to listen, then walk away and stick her in her box. Then work at it the next day. I would (I hope) assume that after a few sessions she sees it as her job to work, not her will to muck around.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I have an old mare that was the worst for being barn sour. Jigging and rearing. Anything she could do to not leave her friends. When I first got her she bolted a couple of times. If we rode with others she would be somewhat ok leaving but coming back she was in a big fat hurry and if I held her back she would throw temper tantrums. One day after getting off of her and walking her to calm her down it hit me how ridiculous this was and thought "you want to go home? We'll go home, backwards the whole way. About halfway she started saying she was sorry so I got back on and she started the tantrum stuff again, so I got off and backed her some more. I didn't care if we had to back all the way home. After that day, I never had this problem from her again.

I haven't ridden her in a long time do to her physical problems and I can almost guarantee that if I rode her now she would do all of this stuff again. It probably wouldn't take much to remind her though.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/buddy-sour-horse-610842/page2/

This thread may be of some use, there are so many if you search Barn Sour or buddy sour in the top right hand corner 

My advice is not something I have put in to practice, but I really do think that the problem stems from respect and trust. I wouldn't want you to get hurt by her rearing when you're in the saddle, hence my saying go from the ground. I'd be really interested to hear what more experienced people chime in with... I just thought I'd put that in there.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

DuffyDuck said:


> Snaky head shakes, to me, sound like she is trying to stretch out of discomfort. I would really, really advise getting her saddle checked, and at this point, also her back.


Oh dear, equine chiropractors are non-existent here. Do you really think the snaky head thing could be prompted by discomfort? She also does it at her friend when they come up to be fed, which I interpret as a "come no closer" warning. Macarena started doing it under saddle when her friend started coming out on the trails with is in the spring. Her friend is the boss, and Macarena doesn't trust her too close to her in case she nips or kicks (not that she ever would do that when being ridden or led, but I imagine that is what Macarena is worried about). So when we were riding them side by side, Macarena would do the snaky neck occasionally and I have always thought it was because of the friend's proximity.



DuffyDuck said:


> Once pain has been ruled out, I think it's time to re-establish your partnership with your horse. Respect and trust, respect for you and trust that you aren't going to let her be eaten by dirt bikes. This means pushing her forward through things she doesn't want to do.


Yes! That's just what I'm trying to do. And you're right, I need to push her harder through the sticky patches in order to regain our former relationship. :thumbsup:



DuffyDuck said:


> I would begin with making her lunge, and it will take longer than 10 minutes to get her brain on you.. I'd say twice that. Leave it on a good note. Have you tried leading her out in hand (with helmet and gloves on)? Make it work. Where she decides she's barn sour, then work her. Backwards, turns, forward, halt. Make her do these things and get her to listen, then walk away and stick her in her box. Then work at it the next day. I would (I hope) assume that after a few sessions she sees it as her job to work, not her will to muck around.


That is more or less what I'm doing. I take note about lunging for rather longer, until I see an attitude improvement. I am doing groundwork, leading her out out her comfort zone, working on relaxation nervous and focusing on me when she gets nervous, occasional rides accompanied by her friend. Interestingly, she isn't totally relaxed even then, though she is WAY better than on her own. But she still thinks out heading for home at every crossroads even with her friend there; the difference is that it's possible to convince her to go my way if we're not alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Bondre- Just my opinion, but the way you are describing it, I think the snaky head is pure attitude. In your original post I thought you were describing my mare. We had the EXACT same issues on the lunge line and what fixed it was what you said earlier, wet saddle pads. What I also found interesting in my case was this: We could free lunge all day long, and she wouldn't show ANY signs of attitude. No snaky head tosses, no bucking, but once put on a line those signs came out. 

DuffyDuck brings up excellent points, but I'm leaning towards an attitude problem, not so much induced my pain.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

When a horse snakes their neck they are not in pain, they are telling you to MOVE NOW. My horses do it all the time to each other, mostly at feeding time. It's normal behavior for them. If any of them did that to me they would be in for a rude awakening. You know, kind of like if your dog growls at you if you go near his food bowl. He's saying the same thing. Obviously dogs and horses are different animals and you would eliminate the behavior in a different way but they are saying the same thing.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I disagree.

It can be attitude, but I have seen horses that snake their head when they have a saddle that pinches and they're trying to stretch out of it to ease themselves. Generally followed by a good buck.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Here's how I do it. Works for me. I never ask a horse to canter on the lunge or in a round pen. When a horse is walking or trotting in a relaxed manner his brain is working. When asked to move up to the canter, the horse can easily become more reactionary - flight mode. When it kicks out and snakes it's head, this is how it would react with a predator and it now sees you as the predator. Remember, it's his reactive side that's now working. Trail riding, I suspect your horse was a bit apprehensive when alone on the trails. When they are like this they look for any excuse to explode, buck, dance, in order to go home where they feel secure. When you feel the horse becoming tense, start circling trees, rocks, bushes, circles and figure eights to bring it's focus back to you. If you become apprehensive on the trails, you horse will pick up on this and start looking for excuses. Whatever you do, don't speak soothingly to it or pet if after your horse settles down. Horse sees that as a reward for it's behavior. When you ride look 50 yards or more ahead. Keep your shoulders square. Your focus tells the horse this is where you are going. When you catch yourself looking at the ground just past the head, ask yourself it you're picking out a spot to come off. Don't worry about atv's, don't give your horse an excuse. Don't let your focus wonder from the trail ahead.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You have her started under saddle, right?
Therefore, lunge her saddled and bitted up, expecting the same behavior as when riding.
That means you MAKE her keep topline and gait that you ask for. Why expect a horse to move correctly under saddle , when you allow that horse to give you the version of the equine finger, while being lunged?
Good work ethics occur through clear expectations.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay, lets get all pain issues ruled out.
That should be an un spoken disclaimer, on any of these posts, concerning equine behavior.
Snaking a head is very clear language in Equus, to 'shove it, and I'm the boss here' While head snaking is mainly a stallion type behavior, many mares esp, will also do so, when asked to do something they rather would not, thus showing defiance 
The minute she gives you that attitude, of 'make me', follow through
If your round pen is too small to ask a horse to canter/lope, do so in the open 
Sorry, I don't buy not asking ahorse to canter, as he will become more reactionary, and in fact, it is in your best interest to show the horse you can both expect him to stay obedient at all gaits, and also show him that you can make him.
I see absolutely no purpose in lunging a broke horse not bitted up, unless you just have no other way of exercising him. If you are trying to train that horse, then demand the same type of movement on the ground, as you expect when riidng.
Do you excuse a horse for bucking, ect when asked to lope being ridden? Snaking his head when you apply leg to ask for a lope?. Ground work is not of much use, unless you expect and enforce good work ethics.
If you can't do this, your horse will continue to use dirt bikes or whatever, as an excuse to act up


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Palomine said:


> How long are you lunging her for, and how often?
> 
> I see too many people that overuse this, to the point that the horse is sick and tired of it, and will act up because of that.
> 
> Could be horse just sees no point in it, and that is what you are seeing.


I agree that lunging is very often over used, BUT if you use it, then demand correct movement and behavior, other wise you are doing nothing other than making the horse more fit, letting him think he decides what gait and how he will pick it up
In this case, lunging the horse because she acted up around dirt bikes, and allowing her to show attitude, is not just doing nothing, far as that problem, but actually enabling it


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When a horse is being a brat anything that instills discipline is a good thing especially lunging, if a horse won't listen to you on the ground its less likely to listen to you when ridden
I always lunge horses tacked up though I tend to use a surcingle rather than a saddle and I find attaching side reins - not tight - is a good way to get them to focus if they're the sort to wave their heads around or run around looking at everything outside of the ring instead of where they're going
I'm pretty sure that most of the bad attitude (including spooking) they give you is all about trying to avoid work so you just have to keep at it


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## Kay Armstrong (Jun 28, 2015)

I'm agreeing with the posters who've recommended a little sweat and a little more work. I'd pretty much ignore the attitude and apply a little more work....once the horse gets a little more tired the attitude should disappear.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Smilie I don't ask for the canter until I feel the horse will do it in a relaxed manner. When I can walk into a pasture with no tools and with the horse at liberty and it will lunge in a circle around me, then I'll ask for the canter. The horse is free of the mental connection that it can't escape.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Well, I pretty much agree with all of you here. The head-snaking is definitely attitude. I have never liked it but sometimes, when we are riding with my other horse, it is hard to tell at whom it is directed. But when she started doing it when we are on our own, it must be defiance directed at me. 

Anyway, I lunged her the other day, after posting this and getting the first replies, and got fiercer with her. When she started the head snake, she would get a tug on the lunge line and a growl. When she started bucking, I got after her with the lunge whip. I didn't make contact because the circle was larger than the length of my lunge whip, but the intention was quite clear and she got the message. After trying a variety of b/s, and getting rid of a ton of excess energy with lots of circles at the canter, she settled and started to listen and work properly. And Saddlebag, you're right, the canter on the lunge only served to burn off energy and make her tired enough to start listening; while she was cantering she was in reactive mode and wasn't connected to me in the least. 

The day after that I rode her out on the trails with her buddy. My DH came up behind us on a moped when we were just starting out, and she began the bouncing. Her friend caught the tension and was giving some attitude to my son too. I calmed my horse down, and then when she was relaxed again we did a long trot. Kilometres of trot. When we asked for a walk again they were back to normal. Relaxed and polite.

Yesterday we took them out together again, and went hill-climbing. They both got up a good sweat getting up to the top, and on the way back there was minimal excitement. So absolutely 100% right those that have seconded me on the need for more work. 

But apart from the need for more work, I still maintain my belief that her fear has been real. And the combination of lunging, groundwork, and just spending time with her hand-grazing or whatever is all helping. I am trying to find the correct balance between being fierce and being friends, and I think we are doing ok now. I haven't tried taking her out on her own yet, as I don't want to force things, but I can feel that her confidence is returning. There was one day when even hand-grazing with me she was a bundle of nerves, and there can't be many activities much more relaxing than that :shock: And although I know that they can pick up on our emotions, when your horse is a bundle of nerves, it's very hard to be entirely relaxed. I find myself tensing up involuntarily, trying to anticipate problems, and I guess she picks up on this and we get into a vicious circle.


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