# Slaughter



## horse_luver4e

Hey what do you guys think about the horse slaughter issue?

I've been thinking about it and it's really a puzzle! I mean I HATE to see horses to have to be killed for human and dog consumption, but there are ALOT of abused or abandoned horses out there. Not to mention over breeding.

It's horrifying to see what happens to the horses in those slaughter houses but what are we going to do with them?


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## buckaroo2010

I think that horse slaughter is very WRONG! no animal should have to go threw that pain  I dont think its right and it makes me very upset when you hear ppl talking about it...I dont like going to horse sales because you never know where the horses you see there are going to go afterwards..thats the sad part i wish there was some way we could end it


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## horse_luver4e

I know I hate killer buyers! How could anyone waste such a wonderful animal? It sickens me.


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## BluMagic

Earlier this year, I was thinking really HARD about whether to sell Blu or not. After I decided I didn't want to...uhh...Mr. Bond, offered to buy him. The Bonds always compete and win a lot. That's because they have pro trainers for gymkhana that break their horses in then they just ride them to compete and win. It's not fair in my opinion. Anyhow, I think he wanted to either sell him for dog food  or try to make a profit on him. The Bonds often sicken me with teh way they handle their horses. Grrrr...


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## KIIM

I am totaly against horse slaughter. i dont think that it matters that a horse is overbreed, absused or abandoned. abused and abandond horses normally could have been very good horses but they got wrecked because someone didnt look after them. Its not their fault and i'm sure a horse would rather not have that happen to them so it is like punishing them for something that wasn't their fault. Although some of these horses are dangerous from past experiances i think that they still deserve a second chance. In a way i think its like slaughtering all the homeless people or drug addicts and its not their fault that they have problems. No one or no animal deserves to have that happen to them. 

Thats my opinion on it.


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## jazzyrider

my opinion is that horse slaughter (along with slaughtering of any animal) is very wrong. i know there are people out there that say it has to happen otherwise we would be over run by abused horses etc but that doesnt right the wrong. 

my belief is that all life is sacred and no life deserves to end at the hands of heartless people. there would be such an outcry if abused, neglected or poorly bred people were sent somewhere to be put to death so why no outcry for the animals? what makes us so deserving that we decide what animal lives and dies?? aaaargh!!! *takes a deep breath* sorry! this kind of subject really gets me going


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## LuLu

I am totally against any animal being slaughtered (I am a vegetarian). I just don't see how anyone can bring themselves to eat meat! Some peoples argument is that horses that are slaughtered in England are killed humanely, so if they were to close, what would happen to all the horses that don't have homes?The slaughter houses in America have been banned, but some people disagree with that because now, those horses have just been turned away to fend for themselves, and by keeping the English slaughter houses open, horses won't be left to starve. If people stopped breeding horses for the sake of it (e.g. the mare can no longer be ridden!) this sort of thing would not happen!!


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## horse_luver4e

I know i totally agree, no slaughter of any horse is humane and I hate it when they have to waste such a preciuos animal like the horse.

The only problem is there might be too much horses. Like an over population but i hate to see them sent to the slaughter house.  

I eat meat but if i was stranded and dying and the only thing to eat was a horse, i would rather die.


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## Vidaloco

I was shocked to see a pair of horse hide gloves in a catalog. I also refuse to buy stuff made out of horsehair. Tail extensions, tack, jewelry I've seen so many things made out of it.


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## Sara

Its a tough question. Unfortunately, we have a huge overpopulation problem because there are a lot of irresponsible and/or clueless people out there breeding herds of horses that no one wants. Maybe they are breeding hundreds to find that one champion. Maybe they are just too lazy to geld their colts. Whatever the reasons, the bitter fact is that we are the ones supplying the slaughter industry.

A horse, or a dog, or a cat may not be a human child, but in my mind, its pretty **** close. If you buy or breed anything, it is your responsibility to see that creature gets the necessities, medical care, and training it needs to be a functioning domestic animal. If you cannot provide these things, its your responsibility to find someone who can.

So I guess the solution is to stop breeding so **** much. But yeah, try telling that to millions of horse people.


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## kim_angel

I am against horse slaughter too.
If there is any reason to slim down the horse population or whatever, then inhumane slaughter is not the way to go. A horse can be euthanized humanely if need be.


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## AKPaintLover

I think horse slaughter is a horrible reality. The problem is that as long as people are going to breed irresponsibly (breeding untrained, badly conformed, etc. horses in high numbers each year), there will be a huge market for the kill buyers. Slaughter is a horrible way for a horse's life to end from what I hear of the operation. 

We can say we don't like it all we like, but the problem is that there is still a problem...people over breed and breed irresponsibly with no consequence. 

I am breeding my first foal this year, and plan to keep it, or train it through beginning riding and then sell it. I will not sell a horse that does not have the skills to give it a shot at a good home. Who wants an untrained horse? (very few people)

What would be a good thing to happen would be some licenser system for breeding or even owning horses  Don't know if it would work but it sure would weed out some wackos, and people who didn't really know what they were getting into. I have seen adds for beginner horses people who bought stallions and are trying to dump them off. 

Maybe eventually some legislation will be passed to punish abusers, bad breeders, neglecters, and irresponsible sellers, but until then I suppose slaughter will be an ugly truth. 

I think an alternative to slaughter would be humane euthanasia of starving, and excess horses before they can be sent to slaughter where their end would be much less peaceful. BUT, the people who are perpetuating the problem must make a buck, so they will get whatever measly amount of money they can. 

Anyone who is interested, there is a Fugly Horse Blog out there on the net (google it), and she talks about this exact thing and irresponsible breeding. She is pretty crass, but she is an interesting read.


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## Sara

kim_angel said:


> I am against horse slaughter too.
> If there is any reason to slim down the horse population or whatever, then inhumane slaughter is not the way to go. A horse can be euthanized humanely if need be.


Its a sad truth right now:/


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## Vidaloco

I agree totally that there needs to be some regulation in the breeding industry but I'm afraid it will never happen. There is a problem in all animals that humans keep for "pets" if there is a market there will be unscrupulous breeders out to make a buck. I used to raise Scottish Terriers just one litter a year out of my 1 female and 1 male dog. I saw a program called "Shelter Dogs" and swore I would never breed her again. Having stray dogs and cats roaming the countryside is one thing, but what will happen when there are horses roaming out there too? I'm afraid that is what it is going to come to. It really is a tough call on which is better, the horses being slaughtered as "livestock" or having them starving along side the road. I can't form an opinion on it, its just too close to the heart.


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## horse_luver4e

I know I was thinking the same thing today.

What if we had a Horse Breeders License. Where you had to get your backround checked out and how responsible you are with horses to be able to breed them.

You can make it happen. If we can write a bill about it and get so many signatures, send it up on capital hill and see if it passes.


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## I Love Lane

there is already a Bill in place to ban horse slaughter across America and it also covers exporting to Canada or Mexico. It is awaiting approval from the Senate.

check out this article, it covers most things that have been spoken about on this thread. It may be a little distressing to some though, sorry about that.

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2007/10/02/horse-slaughter-bill-ignored-on-the-hill/


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## horse_luver4e

Thats good I hope it passes!


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## I Love Lane

i dont think that anybody would disagree with you on that one horse_luver4e


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## horse_luver4e

lol yeah :lol:


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## EquiSoup

Just my thoughts....

I am a vegetarian. I'm not against consuming animals when they are humanely treated, humanely raised (not feed lots, force fed...), and they are humanely slaughtered (not a factory slaughter house which causes so much pain and suffering). 

All life is sacred. The way to stop slaughtering? STOP BREEDING YOUR CRAPPY MARES AND STALLIONS. This is a great blog that demonstrates how I feel: http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/

If you want your horse to have a wonderful life keep it for it's life as it's the only guarantee. 

There would be a lot less slaughtering if we were more selective in breeding our horses. Don't breed a horse just to do it. Select a great mare and stallion (at least with great conformation, but also with great performance records, among a million other reasons. A registered horse has a greater chance of survival. 

It's all the backyard breeding, and the Thoroughbreds that are pushed too hard, too young, that flood our slaughter houses. Geld your colts!!

As long as breeding doesn't remain selective, it will continue. 

As for abused and neglected horses...that is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY NO REASON to submit it to that kind of ending. If the horse has been abused, that is yet another reason that humanity has failed that horse. Neglected too. Don't own a horse if you can't take care of it. These horses deserve just as much as a fit well fed show horse or your pet, they are no less of a creature because of their past. 

Slaughtering of all types needs to stop or move to a more humane level. 

The number of horses in the world is based on the humans. Stop breeding unselectively. If you can't sell your foal, then you shouldn't be breeding. 

Sorry....very passionate about the subject.


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## kim_angel

I agree with you and I am too.

I was posting on another horse forum and someone wanted to breed their mare because they wanted another fast horse. Couldnt they just "buy" or adopt a fast horse elsewhere?

:? 

Of course many people were mad at me for saying that though.


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## PoptartShop

Ugh, I hate horse slaughter...
I wonder.
Do the people that work in that place even have a heart?!
It's so terrible...I could never imagine doing that to an innocent animal...I just wish all the abuse & cruelty would stop.


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## Delregans Way

Yes i agree, the people who work there mustn't have a heart, or a problem with killing innocent animals. Some humans in this world really discust me, its not just with horses, but with dogs, cats almost anything... Like the Japanese killing Whales...now that is just discusting, wrong and im glad some Coutries (including Australia) have told them to stop. Although i can understand other people point of veiw, why its ok to slaughter... but i cant agree with them. If i had to get rid of a horse, i defintally wouldnt send it to a slaughter yard, i would get a vet to put it down or my next door neighbour to shoot it... The only reason they take the horses there...to my understanding is to get a small profit, but really whats 200 bucks...espicually when u had to kill a innocent life and make them suffer.


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## AKPaintLover

I enjoy reading the Fugly horse blog also, and have really leaned a lot from it. That sort of blunt talk doesn't have a place everywhere (I don't think it would work well on this forum), but she sure gets the point across. 

Maybe if enough people start reading the blog, they will get it. 

I don't know if I will ever again buy someone else's problem, when I can perfectly capable of raising and training my own babies. I have my own mare and stallion who are both fabulous horses (well put together, kind, trained, active, papered, nicely bred, level headed). BUT you will not see me mass producing any horses.


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## EquiSoup

Yes, it's sad that blunt honest talk will turn you quickly into the black sheep of the forum. If only we all felt like the author of Fugly Horses


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## PoptartShop

I know! People are sick, nowadays.
I could never imagine working in a place like that...harming, killing, those poor innocent animals.
Ack! Those people need to be hit with a bat.


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## BluMagic

EquiSoup said:


> Just my thoughts....
> 
> I am a vegetarian. I'm not against consuming animals when they are humanely treated, humanely raised (not feed lots, force fed...), and they are humanely slaughtered (not a factory slaughter house which causes so much pain and suffering).
> 
> All life is sacred. The way to stop slaughtering? STOP BREEDING YOUR CRAPPY MARES AND STALLIONS. This is a great blog that demonstrates how I feel: http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com


I'll have to admit I took this very offensively. Blu might be what you would call "crappy bred" but that doesn't mean he's worthless. I kind of understand what you are saying but I still don't fully agree. I am not sure if I am the only one that takes this offensively but I can say now that I do not understand why you said it. lol. JMO :?


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## EquiSoup

I was just saying that breeding quality horses, will insure a quality life for them. I love ALL horses, crappy, beautiful, conformationally faulty, it doesn't matter to me. They are all valuable and there is no horse that is worthless. 

I'm sorry that it came across that way. It definitely wasn't meant that way. My first horse wasn't beautiful, didn't have a sweet personality, wasn't an easy ride, etc., but I loved her more than anything. She definitely wasn't worthless, and taught me more than any other horse has.


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## GallopAway

BluMagic said:


> EquiSoup said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just my thoughts....
> 
> I am a vegetarian. I'm not against consuming animals when they are humanely treated, humanely raised (not feed lots, force fed...), and they are humanely slaughtered (not a factory slaughter house which causes so much pain and suffering).
> 
> All life is sacred. The way to stop slaughtering? STOP BREEDING YOUR CRAPPY MARES AND STALLIONS. This is a great blog that demonstrates how I feel: http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have to admit I took this very offensively. Blu might be what you would call "crappy bred" but that doesn't mean he's worthless. I kind of understand what you are saying but I still don't fully agree. I am not sure if I am the only one that takes this offensively but I can say now that I do not understand why you said it. lol. JMO :?
Click to expand...

I love fuglyhorse. She brings up some very interesting topics and points.

I don't think she meant that the horses are worthless. IMO NO horse is worthless.. Some are just not BREEDING quality. A "crappy bred" horse can still be absolutely *wonderful* [ I have a crappy bred mare I wouldn't trade for _anything_], just NOT as a breeding horse.

It's hard to make GOOD money in the horse business. And I think breeding should be left to professionals that know what they're doing.

I think slaughter is horrible, but needed.
I'd rather see a horse slaughtered than abused/neglected until it eventually dies.

I think the worst part of slaughter, aside from the killing process, is the transportation and what not. I think alot of the horses are probably bounced from dealer to dealer, before finally reaching the slaughter house.

I think when you buy a horse it is a lifetime commitment [at least for me it is] and If I was ever forced to sell, I'd be SURE my horse was going to a good home, and check up on her from time to time.

I hate when people sell/send a horse to slaughter because they don't want to pay to have the horse humanely put down and have the body taken away, etc. Horses don't live forever and they are not exactly as cheap as a gold fish to own. When you buy a horse, you have to be prepared to take care of that horse in every aspect, even it's death.

Bottom line for me:
If slaughter stops, we need an alternative for all the unwanted horses. Breeding license/laws? What about giving unwanted horses to riding centers, rescue barns, etc?

I dunno. Slaughters just a confusing, emotional topic for alot of people in the horse industry. I absolutely love the horse industry and it has alot of amazing things about it... But not everything about it is nice.

I guess the industry will always have it's bad aspects. =/


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## BluMagic

Okay, thanks! I don't know if I am overreacting or what but now I get what you are saying. lol. The site was pretty good but not something i would be highly interested in like I am with HF! lol. 

Thanks again,


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## xkatex

I have to agree with Blu about the selective breeding. Now we have standardbred so they are all pure and all registered. Ive only had maybe 3 horses in total that were not registered...and they were the best ones Ive ever had. 

Now about the slaughter issue. Personally it would be amazing is all horse slaughter was stopped. It has been proven that humans were ment to be herbivores. Just look at our teeth is what people say. But over the years we have become omnivores. But stopping slaughter in the US, I think, is now a bad idea. From what ive read and heard, more horses are going to Mexico. 

There, they are treated much worse and cruely then in the US. I believe they have seen a 300% increase if I remember correctly. 

Im not saying im for slaughter cause i am not. But i would rather see a horse slaughtered in the US were there are some regulations rather then in Mexico where there are none. 

If the has banned Slaughter....all North America should...and in studies they have said that horse abuse and neglect would NOT rise at all...it would actually decrease supposidly. 

But thats just my opinion...dont burn me lol...


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## I Love Lane

xkatex said:


> Now about the slaughter issue. Personally it would be amazing is all horse slaughter was stopped. It has been proven that humans were ment to be herbivores. Just look at our teeth is what people say. But over the years we have become omnivores. But stopping slaughter in the US, I think, is now a bad idea. From what ive read and heard, more horses are going to Mexico.
> 
> There, they are treated much worse and cruely then in the US. I believe they have seen a 300% increase if I remember correctly.


Did you read the article that i posted the link to Kate??? The Bill that is waiting to be passed would stop all horses from the US being taken to Canada or Mexico for the purpose of slaughter...... in other words, if slaughter is criminalized in America - it will also become illegal for horses to be taken over the border for the same reason


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## horse_luver4e

Gosh I hate that! Why do they have to be so cruel to those horses?


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## Cheval

I think that all slaughter is pure evil, espically how they treat & kill the horses. I saw one horse slaughter video - it was so gory and gross, I almost started crying (if anyone looks it up, it's under the American Humane Society, probaly under horses, but not 100% sure). Words can't describe how much I hate slaughter, and I don't really want to go ranting about it.

But yes, I love FHOTD (Fugly Horse)! Very valid points. Sometimes I think they take it too far, but it's really interesting to learn about conformation.


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## kim_angel

The thing that a lot of people dont realize is:

Horses that go to slaughter arent just "ugly" horses, sick horses, horses with poor conformation/bad breeding, abused, injured or old. There are beautiful, healthy, wonderfully bred, young horses going to slaughter.

There are baby horses going to slaughter.

Kill Buyers dont care how old the horse is or its health. All they are concerned with is buying it cheap enough to make a profit.


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## alli0707

horse_luver4e said:


> I know i totally agree, no slaughter of any horse is humane and I hate it when they have to waste such a preciuos animal like the horse.
> 
> The only problem is there might be too much horses. Like an over population but i hate to see them sent to the slaughter house.
> 
> I eat meat but if i was stranded and dying and the only thing to eat was a horse, i would rather die.


It's called humane euthanization.Very simple.They just need to drop the prices on it.


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## Vidaloco

Horse breeders need to take an economics lesson from the oil/gas companys. Cut the supply and raise the demand and price. If they didn't breed anything and everything there would be fewer horses and horse slaughter wouldn't be an issue.
That goes for the demand end too. No demand for horse products including hides hair. We need to boycott the tack industry by not buying products made from horse hair. Tail extenders, jewelry and horse hair macates. If you think these things are made from live, happy horses your dreaming.


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## .Delete.

Horse Slaughter is a evil yes, but it is needed. The Amish generally don't care to spend a large sum of money to get their horses put down and shipped away. Considering burrying a horse is illegal. Personally i'd rather have a horse go to slaughter and get killed instintly. Then watching a horse die on the side of the road because someone dosen't want to spend the money to get rid of it. But then also many horses have diseases or defects or even injuries that cannot be cured or fixed. Does that mean they should go to slaughter? No, but id rather have them go to slaughter then, rotting and slowing dieing away in some field. Not matter how much people should care about their horses or what they should do. Does *not* mean they are going to do it. People are cruel and many feel horses are purely for work. So people send horses to slaughter because they can't afford them. Many people would say "Well they should give them to a rescue place, or to someone who can take care of them". Again, it dosen't matter what they should do. It matters what they do, and what they do is send horses to slaughter. In my opinion slaughter saves alot of horses from much worse death. If i was a horse, id rather be slaughtered then left to rot in a field with nothing but death to look forward to. I'd have it quick and get it over with. 

But then people argue "Think how the horse feels". Well don't you think thats kinda hard? Considering that you can't "talk" to a horse. But who are YOU to assume that, that horse wants to live or die? Who are YOU to say that, that horse wants to be free and run around in a field for the rest of its life and be happy and free. You don't know if that horse would rather be in a show ring, be on a trail, or run around in a pasture. You don't know that. You can only take from what you see in your horse as clues. Like, from what i see my horses are pretty happy. But i don't know that for sure. My horses could hate me and everything about where they are at. But i would never know from they way they act. So, those people who say that, that horse would rather live its life in a beautiful field with a stream and a herd, don't really know that.


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## tim

xkatex said:


> Now about the slaughter issue. It has been proven that humans were ment to be herbivores. Just look at our teeth is what people say.


Umm, that's not nescessarily true...


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## BluMagic

^ we do have canine teeth..... :?


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## .Delete.

> It has been proven that humans were ment to be herbivores. Just look at our teeth is what people say.


You need to do some more research. Because that is *not* correct.


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## Vidaloco

.Delete. said:


> It has been proven that humans were ment to be herbivores. Just look at our teeth is what people say.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to do some more research. Because that is *not* correct.
Click to expand...

My husband and I had a chuckle over that one  I do applaud you for being a vegetarian but its one of those opinions that is best not argued.


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## kim_angel

I read somewhere awhile back that we are neither herbivores or carnivores... we are more like Omnivores.


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## Vidaloco

kim_angel said:


> I read somewhere awhile back that we are neither herbivores or carnivores... we are more like Omnivores.


I think you are right Kim. Early man was more of an opportunistic eater. If it was there and it didn't kill you, you ate it.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> Horse Slaughter is a evil yes, but it is needed. The Amish generally don't care to spend a large sum of money to get their horses put down and shipped away. Considering burrying a horse is illegal. Personally i'd rather have a horse go to slaughter and get killed instintly. Then watching a horse die on the side of the road because someone dosen't want to spend the money to get rid of it. But then also many horses have diseases or defects or even injuries that cannot be cured or fixed. Does that mean they should go to slaughter? No, but id rather have them go to slaughter then, rotting and slowing dieing away in some field. Not matter how much people should care about their horses or what they should do. Does *not* mean they are going to do it. People are cruel and many feel horses are purely for work. So people send horses to slaughter because they can't afford them. Many people would say "Well they should give them to a rescue place, or to someone who can take care of them". Again, it dosen't matter what they should do. It matters what they do, and what they do is send horses to slaughter. In my opinion slaughter saves alot of horses from much worse death. If i was a horse, id rather be slaughtered then left to rot in a field with nothing but death to look forward to. I'd have it quick and get it over with.
> 
> But then people argue "Think how the horse feels". Well don't you think thats kinda hard? Considering that you can't "talk" to a horse. But who are YOU to assume that, that horse wants to live or die? Who are YOU to say that, that horse wants to be free and run around in a field for the rest of its life and be happy and free. You don't know if that horse would rather be in a show ring, be on a trail, or run around in a pasture. You don't know that. You can only take from what you see in your horse as clues. Like, from what i see my horses are pretty happy. But i don't know that for sure. My horses could hate me and everything about where they are at. But i would never know from they way they act. So, those people who say that, that horse would rather live its life in a beautiful field with a stream and a herd, don't really know that.


It's people like you that keep slaughter around.If horse slaughter was to end everywhere(mexico, canada and europe) there would be alot of happiness in this world. People keep saying if there wasn't slaughter that there will be a huge upage on neglected horses but since horse slaughter was stopped in california it hasn't happened yet.People need to stop predicting what will happen and give it a chance to see what happens.

How you could say you would rather be torchered then starve to death? That's just weird to me. I would rather die a slow(not as painful death) then go to slaughter and have people treat me far worse. They starve the horses there anyways. There isn't really a difference except horses that are neglected don't get chopped up into pieces after they die.And they aren't forced to choke to death. Hopefully one of these you will open your eyes and realize that horse slaughter is sick and wrong and needs to be stopped.Especially in Mexico.


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## .Delete.

alli0707 said:


> It's people like you that keep slaughter around.If horse slaughter was to end everywhere(mexico, canada and europe) there would be alot of happiness in this world. People keep saying if there wasn't slaughter that there will be a huge upage on neglected horses but since horse slaughter was stopped in california it hasn't happened yet.People need to stop predicting what will happen and give it a chance to see what happens.
> 
> How you could say you would rather be torchered then starve to death? That's just weird to me. I would rather die a slow(not as painful death) then go to slaughter and have people treat me far worse. They starve the horses there anyways. There isn't really a difference except horses that are neglected don't get chopped up into pieces after they die.And they aren't forced to choke to death. Hopefully one of these you will open your eyes and realize that horse slaughter is sick and wrong and needs to be stopped.Especially in Mexico.


I find that EXTREMELY offensive. First off its people like you who spread ignorance and false information about slaughter around. Slaughter houses do not starve their horses. They kill them right away, its painless they don't feel a thing. I go to a slaughter yard about twice a month. I see starved horses go there yes, but they have round bales and tons of hay laying around for them to eat. You preach that people need to stop predicting what will happen?


> If horse slaughter was to end everywhere(mexico, canada and europe) there would be alot of happiness in this world.


Hypocrite. So tell me, what is going to happen to all those horses that are ment to go to slaughter? The ones that are disease riddled and arn't being taken care of that were going to be sent to slaughter if they could. Whats going to happen to them? The magical horse fairy is going to give them a perfect live of forever happines with beautiful land where they can live happy and free? No. They will rot and die in a pasture, putting out more toxins into the ground and air causing over all more risky diseases for our horses to get. Don't you see? If slaughter was stopped horses would die and rott in pastures all around the country, the number of horse related diseases will sky rocket and that means more vacc. for your precious horses. You have to think outside of the "Don't hurt the horsie" box. Horses around the country will suffer greatly. Again, who are you to say they don't want to die? If i was them i'd rather get killed instantly and make use of my parts then painfully die of endless suffering and rott putting out potential toxin that could harm another animal.


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## kim_angel

I might be wrong but I was always told that the horses dont die instantly. I saw a TV Documentary on it where they said sometimes they have to use the captured bullet method 2 to 3 times on a horse til they die or bleed to death.

I also saw this video (graphic. Dont watch if you might get upset.) http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1568865848
and it looks like they get stabbed to death. Nothing instant about that in my view.

I still think there needs to be action taken to stop over breeding of horses, cats, dogs, etc... Thats where most of the problem is.

Either way, everyone has the right to their own opinion. Whether you are pro or con...
All I know is, I will do everything I can to stop the export of horses in the US to slaughter houses.


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## bubba13

The method of slaughter that was used in the US was the penetrating captive bolt gun, which is considered *the most humane* method of euthanasia--even more than the shot given by vets. It is *instantly* fatal in something like 98% of cases. Yes, sometimes there are mistakes, and horses suffer. But this is the exception, not the norm.

In Canada, they shoot the horses. Same deal. Instant and humane.

In Mexico, some plants use the bolt gun, but some sever the spinal cord--probably the video you were talking about, but I can't view it on this computer. Once they do reach the spinal cord, the horse is paralyzed and cannot breathe....*but is still conscious and able to feel pain* as it is yanked upside down and bled out.

Guess where American horses are going to be slaughtered? Mexico!


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## .Delete.

What most people don't understand is that 99.9% of those in-humane videos you see are from _*other countries*_ Oh and BTW the food you feed your dog. Most dog feed is made from horse. So preach that you want to "end slaughter" while feeding your dog.[/u][/b]


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## kim_angel

My dog's food doesnt contain horse meat.

Ingredients: Lamb Meal, Ground Rice, Rice Flour, Rice Bran, Soybean Oil, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Poultry Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of natural Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Rice Gluten, Dried Egg Product, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Dried Kelp (source of Iodine), Salt, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Taurine, Ferrous Sulfate, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Biotin, Copper Proteinate, Niacin, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Vitamin A Supplement, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K activity), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid.


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## .Delete.

I didn't say all i said most.


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## kim_angel

I thought you were saying this to me 


> Oh and BTW the food you feed your dog. Most dog feed is made from horse. So preach that you want to "end slaughter" while feeding your dog.


Thats why I responded with the ingredients for my dog's food.

Either way - people are going to sit firmly on either side of the fence on a topic like this. Instead of people fighting amoung one another on the topic, we should honestly be thinking of ways to control the horse population to begin with. As I mentioned earlier... the real problem is that breeding is running rampant.


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## tim

bubba13 said:


> The method of slaughter that was used in the US was the penetrating captive bolt gun, which is considered *the most humane* method of euthanasia--even more than the shot given by vets. It is *instantly* fatal in something like 98% of cases. Yes, sometimes there are mistakes, and horses suffer. But this is the exception, not the norm.
> 
> In Canada, they shoot the horses. Same deal. Instant and humane.
> 
> In Mexico, some plants use the bolt gun, but some sever the spinal cord--probably the video you were talking about, but I can't view it on this computer. Once they do reach the spinal cord, the horse is paralyzed and cannot breathe....*but is still conscious and able to feel pain* as it is yanked upside down and bled out.
> 
> Guess where American horses are going to be slaughtered? Mexico!


The video you are referring to is from Mexico and they _are_ using the penetrating captive bolt gun. However, they are ignoring the most critical aspect of the "humanity" of this device: *the restraint of the animal*. The horses seen are simply being forced into the kill chamber and the shot is applied while they maintain free movement within the chamber. For that reason, most of the horses require two and three shots from the gun in order to induce unconciousness. In one case I watched, the horse was shot in the shoulder before it was properly stunned.

The _true_ purpose of the penetrating captive bolt gun is to render horses unconcious before exsanguination (bleeding out) and to administer a shot to the shoulder would result in immense pain. It is meant to be applied to a _restrained_ animal in the forehead. By restraining the animal, you can ensure that the gun be placed firmly on the head and fired so that immediate unconciousness is achieved through a swelling of brain mass. Sadly these horses were not afforded restraint. For that reason many of them undergo multiple shots from the gun before they become unconcious.

It is important to note that the penetrating bolt gun is not intended as the primary means of euthanasia. It is simply intended to stun.


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## bubba13

> Gunshot and the penetrating captive bolt are acceptable physical methods of euthanasia. When used in the correct manner, they induce death more rapidly than chemical euthanasia. They produce death in the same way, by disrupting the brain and causing loss of consciousness and subsequent death. Euthanasia by gunshot may pose an inherent risk for other animals and humans, and should only be performed by someone skilled in the method and in a safe environment. The penetrating captive bolt is safer than gunshot euthanasia because it does not release a projectile (e.g., bullet). Please note that there are two types of captive bolt—penetrating and nonpenetrating. The penetrating captive bolt induces death by firing a rod into the brain. The nonpenetrating captive bolt causes a severe concussion that stuns the animal but does not kill it. The nonpenetrating captive bolt is not considered a humane method of euthanasia for horses.
> 
> Gunshot and penetrating captive bolt euthanasia are less expensive than chemical euthanasia and do not present the risks of environmental contamination or animal poisoning. These techniques are considered aesthetically displeasing to many horse owners, but they are effective. Many technical large animal emergency rescue groups carry penetrating captive bolts for use in emergency situations. For example, when a fatally injured horse is trapped in a trailer, it may not be possible to access the horse's veins to chemically euthanatize it, and discharging a firearm in a closed trailer is extremely dangerous. The penetrating captive bolt is the preferred method of euthanasia in this situation because it induces rapid death without jeopardizing the lives of other animals or people in the trailer.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> alli0707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's people like you that keep slaughter around.If horse slaughter was to end everywhere(mexico, canada and europe) there would be alot of happiness in this world. People keep saying if there wasn't slaughter that there will be a huge upage on neglected horses but since horse slaughter was stopped in california it hasn't happened yet.People need to stop predicting what will happen and give it a chance to see what happens.
> 
> How you could say you would rather be torchered then starve to death? That's just weird to me. I would rather die a slow(not as painful death) then go to slaughter and have people treat me far worse. They starve the horses there anyways. There isn't really a difference except horses that are neglected don't get chopped up into pieces after they die.And they aren't forced to choke to death. Hopefully one of these you will open your eyes and realize that horse slaughter is sick and wrong and needs to be stopped.Especially in Mexico.
> 
> 
> 
> I find that EXTREMELY offensive. First off its people like you who spread ignorance and false information about slaughter around. Slaughter houses do not starve their horses. They kill them right away, its painless they don't feel a thing. I go to a slaughter yard about twice a month. I see starved horses go there yes, but they have round bales and tons of hay laying around for them to eat. You preach that people need to stop predicting what will happen?
> 
> 
> 
> If horse slaughter was to end everywhere(mexico, canada and europe) there would be alot of happiness in this world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hypocrite. So tell me, what is going to happen to all those horses that are ment to go to slaughter? The ones that are disease riddled and arn't being taken care of that were going to be sent to slaughter if they could. Whats going to happen to them? The magical horse fairy is going to give them a perfect live of forever happines with beautiful land where they can live happy and free? No. They will rot and die in a pasture, putting out more toxins into the ground and air causing over all more risky diseases for our horses to get. Don't you see? If slaughter was stopped horses would die and rott in pastures all around the country, the number of horse related diseases will sky rocket and that means more vacc. for your precious horses. You have to think outside of the "Don't hurt the horsie" box. Horses around the country will suffer greatly. Again, who are you to say they don't want to die? If i was them i'd rather get killed instantly and make use of my parts then painfully die of endless suffering and rott putting out potential toxin that could harm another animal.
Click to expand...

wow are you serious?I wouldn't be talking if I haven't been to a feedlot. I don't know what feedlot you were at but it had to have been one that I have never heard of.The horses are put in a pen that is completely empty. With no food or water. They are so sickly skinny that most of them are on the ground. They have huge gashs and bruises.

How about people stop being money hungry and cut down costs on euthanisia and there won't be a problem with sick and injured horses. If horse slaughter was banned everywhere all they would have to do is cut down the costs and there you go..and on the whole dog food thing.You did not say some dog food has horse in it.You were trying to get people to feel guilty about feeding their dog because it has horse in it.Nowhere did you say some brands have horse. Come on I know you have a big enough heart to see that horse slaughter is both inhumane and WRONG.


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## bubba13

Um, if they weren't feeding horses in *feed*lots, how would they fatten them up to have enough meat to make it worth their while?

And euthanasia--_gunshot_ euthanasia, that is--is not at all expensive. But disposing of the carcass is (cremation runs over $1000, burying is illegal, composting is impractical, and some places don't have rendering plants or garbage disposal for animal carcasses).

But if people are abusing/neglecting their horse anyway, why would they bother to euthanize it? Just let it starve, right? From their perspective.


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> Um, if they weren't feeding horses in *feed*lots, how would they fatten them up to have enough meat to make it worth their while?
> 
> And euthanasia--_gunshot_ euthanasia, that is--is not at all expensive. But disposing of the carcass is (cremation runs over $1000, burying is illegal, composting is impractical, and some places don't have rendering plants or garbage disposal for animal carcasses).
> 
> But if people are abusing/neglecting their horse anyway, why would they bother to euthanize it? Just let it starve, right? From their perspective.


wow, your're very ignorant.Stop arguing with an anti-slaughter being. The horses that they slaughter and get 'alot' of meat off of are mostly stolen. Just because a horse is very skinny doesn't mean they don't have meat on them. They don't feed the horses once they are on their journey to the slaughter house.Which lasts about two days at the most.A horse is still going to have meat on it after two days.


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## bubba13

I'm ignorant. OK. And you are? How old, now?

Mostly stolen?! I find that laughable! And where are your statistics to support this, since every website I've ever been to (both pro- and anti-slaughter) has said that there is *no possible way *of knowing how many stolen horses are sold to slaughter each year? Are you magic? Do you know something no one else in the world does? Do share, please!

No one's arguing that transport to slaughter isn't cruel. It is. But the horses are fed, and are not starving. If a horse couldn't stand, it couldn't be slaughtered. They can't kill them that way--no way to get them into the kill pen--and there's danger of the meat not being safe. Most slaughtered horses are actually in good body condition and are healthy.


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> I'm ignorant. OK. And you are? How old, now?
> 
> Mostly stolen?! I find that laughable! And where are your statistics to support this, since every website I've ever been to (both pro- and anti-slaughter) has said that there is *no possible way *of knowing how many stolen horses are sold to slaughter each year? Are you magic? Do you know something no one else in the world does? Do share, please!
> 
> No one's arguing that transport to slaughter isn't cruel. It is. But the horses are fed, and are not starving. If a horse couldn't stand, it couldn't be slaughtered. They can't kill them that way--no way to get them into the kill pen--and there's danger of the meat not being safe. Most slaughtered horses are actually in good body condition and are healthy.


Yes most of them are stolen..And they can know approximately how many horses are stolen by looking at reports that people make out. and the statistics I'm talking about aren't the ones stolen, but the ones that are just being slaughtered.and I'm not being immature at all so don't ask how old I am.If I was being immature I would be calling you names and stuff but no I'm just trying to share my views on it but all I get in return are arguements and it's annoying.


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## bubba13

You're 20 years old? Wow. Three years older than me and....never mind.


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## .Delete.

Stolen aye? So tell me, whats the point to stealing a horse if your just going to send it to slaughter hmm? And if slaughter was stopped, even if the cost went down there nothing will change, you still have a 1000 transport fee. Which btw, they arn't transporting your horsie to a burrial ground just to let you know. Its ILLEGAL TO BURRY A HORSE. So what are the people who don't care going to do? Pay money to human-ly kill a horse then pay 1000 to get it hauled away? I don't think so, they are going to let it rot. 

I agree with the horse transport, but a horse isn't going to lose 200 pounds over not being fed in 2 days. Come on, be realistic. 

A *feedlot?* So can i take a guess and say that you know every single Slaugheryard i the world =O Wow. 

I'v seen some pretty bad looking horses go into the slaughteryards that i have been to, but not *all* of them have gashes. The most injured horses i'v seen are about 4 out of the hundreds that come into there every week.

Tell me, what so inhumane about killing something instantly? Putting it out of its misery? I find that rotting in a pasture or diing on the side of a road is 10 times more inhumane then killing instantly. 

There are people that live down the road from me, they have a Paso farm. But the owner has gone crazy. She dosen't feed her horses anymore all they have to live off of is grass. She started off with a herd of 20 Paso's (She bred them). Now she has about 15 left. From time to time she will throw 3 bales out there but nothing more. Many people have called the humane society on them several times. But nothing has been done. I have offered to BUY them off of her but she refuses and just tells me to leave before she calls the cops. I would steal them but i would have no place to put them or have the money to fix them. Do you think she cares about her horses? No. There are horse skeletons laying all over that pasture. Her horses have halters grown into their faces, magits in their wounds caused from each others biting. They are disease riddled because of their condition. Her place is set back into the woods so no one can see whats going on. I have called humane society myself more then 5 times. They have yet to do anything about it. Personally i'd have those horses go to slaughter, most of them are beyond help and are going to die soon anyways. I mean they don't deserve to die. But its better then suffering in a pasture till they finally become one with the dirt.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> Stolen aye? So tell me, whats the point to stealing a horse if your just going to send it to slaughter hmm?
> 
> Tell me, what so inhumane about killing something instantly? Putting it out of its misery? I find that rotting in a pasture or diing on the side of a road is 10 times more inhumane then killing instantly.


The point in stealing a horse is they give it to killer buyers and make a profit off of it.

And they don't kill them instantly. Yeah sure they shoot them in the head which is suppose to knock them unconcious, but it doesn't. Sometimes they have seizures and it doesn't fully paralze them. It's very sad seeing a horse have seizures from the killers not knowing what they're doing, which most of them don't. Do you think they have a class in college on how to kill an animal properly? Plus once they cut their throats most horses are still fully concious and they choke to death(which lasts a long time).


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## .Delete.

[quote="alli0707
And they don't kill them instantly. Yeah sure they shoot them in the head which is suppose to knock them unconcious, but it doesn't. Sometimes they have seizures and it doesn't fully paralze them. It's very sad seeing a horse have seizures from the killers not knowing what they're doing, which most of them don't.[/quote]

Wrong. Most slaughter houses are inspected by gov. officals. Illegal ones might not know what they are doing, but the legal ones do. they have to follow certian guide lines. How exactly do you know that it dosen't knock them unconcious? You keep chaning what your saying around. One min you say it does knock them unconcious the next it doesn't. Stick to one story. The reason why you see them twiching in films while being skinned is because its a bodly function. Many people don't realize that once you die your body still moves, twiches and thrashes in some cases. Movies make it out to seem that once you die you don't move. Thats completely wrong. Again, most of those films are from OTHER countries. They have difference rules and regulations there.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> [quote="alli0707
> And they don't kill them instantly. Yeah sure they shoot them in the head which is suppose to knock them unconcious, but it doesn't. Sometimes they have seizures and it doesn't fully paralze them. It's very sad seeing a horse have seizures from the killers not knowing what they're doing, which most of them don't.


Wrong. Most slaughter houses are inspected by gov. officals. Illegal ones might not know what they are doing, but the legal ones do. they have to follow certian guide lines. How exactly do you know that it dosen't knock them unconcious? You keep chaning what your saying around. One min you say it does knock them unconcious the next it doesn't. Stick to one story. The reason why you see them twiching in films while being skinned is because its a bodly function. Many people don't realize that once you die your body still moves, twiches and thrashes in some cases. Movies make it out to seem that once you die you don't move. Thats completely wrong. Again, most of those films are from OTHER countries. They have difference rules and regulations there.[/quote]

No, the one I watched was in dekalb illinios and they were doing an inspection.I doubt the workers were taping it. One of them shot a horse in the head with the bult gun and the horse started having a seizure right away.and so when you die you still make noises? The horse was making the most horrifying noise I've ever heard.and do you know what the workers were doing? They were clapping and cheering. They can still do that without getting in trouble. Most of the things that happen in slaughter houses is inhumane no matter what the law says.


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## bubba13

> Q: I saw a video that showed a horse that didn't die quickly after the captive bolt was fired. It looked really bad to me. Is this a common scenario?
> A: No, this is actually very uncommon. In US slaughterhouses, USDA inspectors (veterinarians) supervised the killing of all horses. Every federally inspected slaughter plant in the United States, including all of the now-closed equine slaughter plants, has a veterinarian and slaughter line inspectors present at all times while animals are slaughtered. The veterinarian and inspectors are required to observe, ensure correction of any errors, and report any instances of inhumane treatment of animals. Slaughter is highly regulated, and any violations of humane slaughter requirements are punished according to federal and state laws and regulations.


I'm getting awfully tired of going around in circles and repeating myself to prove my point.


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## kim_angel

That states "In the United States" but nowadays a lot of our horses go to Canada and Mexico.


2007 Totals - All U.S. Horses for Slaughter - 111,771 + * 

U.S. - 29,761 

Exported to Mexico for Slaughter - 45,609 

*Exported to Canada for Slaughter - 36,401 +

*Canadian figures through September 2007 - full figures will be posted upon receipt


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> Q: I saw a video that showed a horse that didn't die quickly after the captive bolt was fired. It looked really bad to me. Is this a common scenario?
> A: No, this is actually very uncommon. In US slaughterhouses, USDA inspectors (veterinarians) supervised the killing of all horses. Every federally inspected slaughter plant in the United States, including all of the now-closed equine slaughter plants, has a veterinarian and slaughter line inspectors present at all times while animals are slaughtered. The veterinarian and inspectors are required to observe, ensure correction of any errors, and report any instances of inhumane treatment of animals. Slaughter is highly regulated, and any violations of humane slaughter requirements are punished according to federal and state laws and regulations.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting awfully tired of going around in circles and repeating myself to prove my point.
Click to expand...

yeah, me too.


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## .Delete.

Ok ok lets get off the "how quickly they die subject". You have yet to tell me if slaughter is stopped, where do all the abused horses go? The ones that would go to slaughter? The ones that no one will care for? The ones that are going to starve to death? The ones that are disease riddled? The magical fairy pony is going to save them?


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## kim_angel

just out of curiosity... do you work at a feedlot or live right by one?


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## .Delete.

No, i go there about 3 times a month and buy horses. I would never work at a slaughter yard. I go there and buy horses that i think would make a nice lower level 4-h horse for kids. I take them horse, and train them and sell them to 4-h kids.


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## bubba13

.Delete. said:


> Ok ok lets get off the "how quickly they die subject". You have yet to tell me if slaughter is stopped, where do all the abused horses go? The ones that would go to slaughter? The ones that no one will care for? The ones that are going to starve to death? The ones that are disease riddled? The magical fairy pony is going to save them?


Well, our dear alli0707 has a solution, never fear. Apparently we're going to stop planting corn, since we have way too much anyway, and instead grow great crops of grass (which, I assume, can be turned into hay). These hundreds of acres of grass can then be populated with all of the unwanted ponies so they can live happy and free. Of course, food prices will go down, so it will be cheaper and easier to care for horses. And it's illegal to eat horsemeat in Mexico--did you know that? So the government is going to stop everyone killing horses, so all of them can live out their lives in peace and finally die comfortably of old age. Duh! Why didn't _we_ think of that?


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## kim_angel

Actually what needs to be done is - the government needs to step in and put some sort of restriction on breeders to stop over breeding. Its not a complete solution of course... not by a long shot... but it would be a good start.

Delete - glad to see that you save horses from the feedlots. Too many people would never consider a horse from a feedlot or a rescue because they think they are all abused, used up and no good.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> Ok ok lets get off the "how quickly they die subject". You have yet to tell me if slaughter is stopped, where do all the abused horses go? The ones that would go to slaughter? The ones that no one will care for? The ones that are going to starve to death? The ones that are disease riddled? The magical fairy pony is going to save them?


Again, HUMANE euthanasia. I know it's expensive, but if shelters cared enough about rescued horses they would come up with the money. People just need to monitor animal abuse more carefully.


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## .Delete.

My fathers horse if from a slaughteryard, we actually pulled her out of the kill pin. She is bread broke, and has nothing wrong with her.

Ha ha ha bubba rotf. Of course why couldn't _we_ think of such a genious plan? How stupid of us.

Even if they put restricions on horse breeding it will still go on. What about the Amish? I doubt they will be able to comtrol them. Considering that they can get away with not paying taxes and such.


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> .Delete. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok ok lets get off the "how quickly they die subject". You have yet to tell me if slaughter is stopped, where do all the abused horses go? The ones that would go to slaughter? The ones that no one will care for? The ones that are going to starve to death? The ones that are disease riddled? The magical fairy pony is going to save them?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, our dear alli0707 has a solution, never fear. Apparently we're going to stop planting corn, since we have way too much anyway, and instead grow great crops of grass (which, I assume, can be turned into hay). These hundreds of acres of grass can then be populated with all of the unwanted ponies so they can live happy and free. Of course, food prices will go down, so it will be cheaper and easier to care for horses. And it's illegal to eat horsemeat in Mexico--did you know that? So the government is going to stop everyone killing horses, so all of them can live out their lives in peace and finally die comfortably of old age. Duh! Why didn't _we_ think of that?
Click to expand...

The only reason I wouldn't believe you on the horsemeat in mexico is because I couldn't find anything on it. and what's wrong with taking out *some* corn? I'm not saying all. There is a better way to take care of unwanted horses then what we are doing to them. 

You make me out to be this stupid person that doesn't know anything and that is doing wrong, but I'm doing what I think is right, which is taking my part in trying to stop humane slaughter for helpless animals.
*Edited for profanity and name calling. Not allowed on this forum-Vidaloco*


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## .Delete.

Ohmygoodgod. PEOPLE WONT SPEND THE MONEY THEY DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT HORSES. They'd sooner starve a horse to death then give it to their neighbor who has a horse farm. A horse barn down the road from me got busted for not feeding their horses there where 5 dead horses in the stalls and they hadn't fed in over 5 months all they had was round bale, and the horses that were inside are the ones that died. Why did they pay to get their horses put down? BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE ENOUGH TO SPEND THE MONEY. People are crule, they won't take the time to give it away or to get it put down. Once the horse is put down they have to pay to get it shipped away. And i promise you, there arn't enough rescue places for all the abused horses. I PROMISE you that.

Are you serious? What bubba said was acutally your plan? If it is thats completely and utterly foolish. Do you know the average life of a wild horse? 8-10 years. If we just let people send disease riddled horses into the wild, do you understand what that will do? Tons of new potentialy fatal diseases will come about for our horses. That is worse then over breeding. Its overpopulation, just like what happened when they stopped killing deer, they became OVER POPULATED. Yellow stone, the animal rights groups got them to stop killing the wolves. What happened? Over population, they had to go in and take them out. The American gov. captures wild mustangs and kills the ones that are over 10, because the average wild horse doesn't live past 10. They give them a 3 day grace period to be bought if they arn't bought by then, they are killed. If it wasn't for that, we would be over-run with mustangs. I'm not sure if thats still the way things are (killing mustangs) but thats who it used to be. Its needed, so horses don't get over populated. If horses get over populated, it will mess up alot of things.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> Ohmygoodgod. PEOPLE WONT SPEND THE MONEY THEY DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT HORSES. They'd sooner starve a horse to death then give it to their neighbor who has a horse farm. A horse barn down the road from me got busted for not feeding their horses there where 5 dead horses in the stalls and they hadn't fed in over 5 months all they had was round bale, and the horses that were inside are the ones that died. Why did they pay to get their horses put down? BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE ENOUGH TO SPEND THE MONEY. People are crule, they won't take the time to give it away or to get it put down. Once the horse is put down they have to pay to get it shipped away. And i promise you, there arn't enough rescue places for all the abused horses. I PROMISE you that.
> 
> Are you serious? What bubba said was acutally your plan? If it is thats completely and utterly foolish. Do you know the average life of a wild horse? 8-10 years. If we just let people send disease riddled horses into the wild, do you understand what that will do? Tons of new potentialy fatal diseases will come about for our horses. That is worse then over breeding. Its overpopulation, just like what happened when they stopped killing deer, they became OVER POPULATED. Yellow stone, the animal rights groups got them to stop killing the wolves. What happened? Over population, they had to go in and take them out. The American gov. captures wild mustangs and kills the ones that are over 10, because the average wild horse doesn't live past 10. They give them a 3 day grace period to be bought if they arn't bought by then, they are killed. If it wasn't for that, we would be over-run with mustangs. I'm not sure if thats still the way things are (killing mustangs) but thats who it used to be. Its needed, so horses don't get over populated. If horses get over populated, it will mess up alot of things.


So this is what they deserve?

http://www.fund4horses.org/images/slaughter1B.jpg

yeah that's even better. People keep saying how this is better then starving to death. These people that kill these horses don't have any good intentions for these horses.


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## .Delete.

Who said anything about "deserving". Jesus stop putting words into my mouth.

Im sorry but i don't think they deserve to get to this condition either









To me, i'd rather see that horse get slaughtered then live on like that. Thats just torture.



[/img]


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> Who said anything about "deserving". Jesus stop putting words into my mouth.
> 
> Im sorry but i don't think they deserve to get to this condition either
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me, i'd rather see that horse get slaughtered then live on like that. Thats just torture.
> 
> 
> 
> [/img]


So you've never seen a horse like that at slaughter? I've seen horses in the kill line and they are that skinny. Especially in Mexico. They don't feed them there once they get to the plant. and I would rather starve to death then get torchered like the horses do. When the workers cheer as they are torchering a mare by stabbing her to death, knowing she isn't gonna die right away, that's just *WRONG*


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## alli0707

Hey, I have a better idea. Why not put all the unwanted, skinny and diseased horses down humanely with injection? and then have them cremated. Cremation isn't illegal because we do it at our stables.


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## .Delete.

> So you've never seen a horse like that at slaughter?


*Stop putting words into my mouth i never said that* I'v seen worse then that go through Slaughteryards. What i am saying is, they don't deserve to live on like that, in that condition.

So once they kill all the injured and already dieing horses then the world will be a happy place? WRONG. They are not going to go through the entire world and kill all the horses that are like that. Even if they did, its an endless process, people will continue to starve horses, to beat horses, to breed horses. It wont stop. Plus you know how much time and money that will take? Jesus, think about it.


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## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> So you've never seen a horse like that at slaughter?
> 
> 
> 
> *Stop putting words into my mouth i never said that* I'v seen worse then that go through Slaughteryards. What i am saying is, they don't deserve to live on like that, in that condition.
> 
> So once they kill all the injured and already dieing horses then the world will be a happy place? WRONG. They are not going to go through the entire world and kill all the horses that are like that. Even if they did, its an endless process, people will continue to starve horses, to beat horses, to breed horses. It wont stop. Plus you know how much time and money that will take? Jesus, think about it.
Click to expand...

ahh ok so I'm gonna accept horses being brutally slaughtered over starving to death? I don't think so.


----------



## .Delete.

> There are 200 organizations that oppose the proposed ban on horse slaughter. Included in this group are the American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA), the largest breed association in the world; the American Association of Equine Practitioners (AAEP); the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA);[17];



Either way the pony dies.


----------



## .Delete.

I was doing some reasearch and i stumbled upon a website promoting prevention of horse slaughter. Here is what i found on the subject of unwanted horses.



> *What should be done with unwanted horses?*
> There are horses right now being slaughtered that could be saved if their owners would simply take the responsibility to euthanise their unsound or unwanted horses.



But the problem is their owners wont take the time or the money to do so. So, they still have yet to answer the question of where all the abused horses are going to go.


----------



## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> I was doing some reasearch and i stumbled upon a website promoting prevention of horse slaughter. Here is what i found on the subject of unwanted horses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What should be done with unwanted horses?*
> There are horses right now being slaughtered that could be saved if their owners would simply take the responsibility to euthanise their unsound or unwanted horses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the problem is their owners wont take the time or the money to do so. So, they still have yet to answer the question of where all the abused horses are going to go.
Click to expand...

First, The cost on euthanasia needs to go down. Then that question won't exist.


----------



## .Delete.

.Delete. said:


> But the problem is their owners wont take the time or the money to do so.


Why do you think people even care enough to pay $5 to get a horse put down? They don't, some people would sooner let the horse roam around dying in the streets then pay $5 to put it down. ( Im not saying thats a set price, its just an example). They take it to slaughter to MAKE MONEY off of the horse, aswell as get rid of it. Once that horse is put down, there is the transfer fee, which i highly doubt they will pay that. Lets say a person has a herd of 25 dying horses that are going to go to slaughter. Even if euthinsation is now lower, thats still alot of money. For transfer and killing. If a person will send a horse to slaughter, i don't think they give a flying heap about that horse, and i doubt they will pay to have it "humanely put down"


----------



## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> .Delete. said:
> 
> 
> 
> But the problem is their owners wont take the time or the money to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you think people even care enough to pay $5 to get a horse put down? They don't, some people would sooner let the horse roam around dying in the streets then pay $5 to put it down. ( Im not saying thats a set price, its just an example). They take it to slaughter to MAKE MONEY off of the horse, aswell as get rid of it. Once that horse is put down, there is the transfer fee, which i highly doubt they will pay that. Lets say a person has a herd of 25 dying horses that are going to go to slaughter. Even if euthinsation is now lower, thats still alot of money. For transfer and killing. If a person will send a horse to slaughter, i don't think they give a flying heap about that horse, and i doubt they will pay to have it "humanely put down"
Click to expand...

And I really hope you're not trying to get me to think horse slaughter is right after what you just said.


----------



## .Delete.

I really hope you know that your chaning the subject because you know that there is no answer to what is going to happen to all the abused horses.

What about the cows and chickens? They are treated worse then horses and i don't hear anyone crying and screaming over them.


----------



## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> I really hope you know that your chaning the subject because you know that there is no answer to what is going to happen to all the abused horses.
> 
> What about the cows and chickens? They are treated worse then horses and i don't hear anyone crying and screaming over them.


I can't answer that because *I don't know*. No one does. I'd rather take the chance and test it out then let this go on.

and I do cry and scream over them, along with seals, bears, dogs, cats, etc. I'm vegan by the way.


----------



## .Delete.

But we already know whats going to happen if we do try it out. So why try it?


----------



## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> But we already know whats going to happen if we do try it out. So why try it?


No, we don't.


----------



## tim

Hmm, someone mentioned seals? That is disgusting what they do in Canada.

I will assume that anyone who opposes horse slaughter also opposes hunting, _maybe_ fishing and all other forms of animal slaughter for food. Otherwise you're applying a double standard to horse slaughter which is something a reasonable argument can not have.

But death is a part of life.


----------



## alli0707

tim said:


> But death is a part of life.


Natural death.


----------



## Vidaloco

Animals considered pets or companion animals, that we have an emotional attachment too are hard to see mistreated in any way. Other countrys don't see the same animals the way we do. I saw a show on cats where they are concidered meat, sorry don't recall the country. They were taking live cats and boiling them to start the cooking process. Really disturbing. Its a tough world for all animals. It bothers me when driving down the road and seeing dead animals cats, dogs whatever just laying there, no one caring that their poor bodys are torn and uncared for. I am not a vegetarian or an animal activist just kindhearted. I would like to see animals treated fairly the world over, but its not going to happen in my lifetime. I don't think there is a black and white answer to how we can stop animal cruilty until all the world sees animals the same. The way I see it humans will have to be destroyed first. We are doing a fine job of that so maybe animals will do a better job in the next incarnation of earth.
Sorry for the rant, jmo.


----------



## jazzyrider

^^^^ what vida said


----------



## alli0707

Vidaloco said:


> Animals considered pets or companion animals, that we have an emotional attachment too are hard to see mistreated in any way. Other countrys don't see the same animals the way we do. I saw a show on cats where they are concidered meat, sorry don't recall the country. They were taking live cats and boiling them to start the cooking process. Really disturbing. Its a tough world for all animals. It bothers me when driving down the road and seeing dead animals cats, dogs whatever just laying there, no one caring that their poor bodys are torn and uncared for. I am not a vegetarian or an animal activist just kindhearted. I would like to see animals treated fairly the world over, but its not going to happen in my lifetime. I don't think there is a black and white answer to how we can stop animal cruilty until all the world sees animals the same. The way I see it humans will have to be destroyed first. We are doing a fine job of that so maybe animals will do a better job in the next incarnation of earth.
> Sorry for the rant, jmo.


Why do you think there are animal activists? They are getting all this stuff slowly stopped, by making it illegal.


----------



## meggymoo

Vidaloco said:


> Animals considered pets or companion animals, that we have an emotional attachment too are hard to see mistreated in any way. Other countrys don't see the same animals the way we do. I saw a show on cats where they are concidered meat, sorry don't recall the country. They were taking live cats and boiling them to start the cooking process. Really disturbing. Its a tough world for all animals. It bothers me when driving down the road and seeing dead animals cats, dogs whatever just laying there, no one caring that their poor bodys are torn and uncared for. I am not a vegetarian or an animal activist just kindhearted. I would like to see animals treated fairly the world over, but its not going to happen in my lifetime. I don't think there is a black and white answer to how we can stop animal cruilty until all the world sees animals the same. The way I see it humans will have to be destroyed first. We are doing a fine job of that so maybe animals will do a better job in the next incarnation of earth.
> Sorry for the rant, jmo.


I have to agree with Vidaloco also. 

Alli0707, I know animal activists are slowly having an impact, but sadly at the end of the day, they wont be able to change the world. As Vida says _"The way I see it humans will have to be destroyed first. We are doing a fine job of that so maybe animals will do a better job in the next incarnation of earth."_

This sadly is the truth.


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## bubba13

Bubba's back. 8) 

The cost of euthansia has nothing to do with it. You can humanely euthanize a horse for the cost of a bullet. What's that, like 5 cents? It's carcass disposal that's expensive and also incredibly difficult to do. As I believe I said before, it's illegal to bury the body, impractical or illegal to compost it, usually not safe to feed to dogs or zoo animals, incredibly expensive to cremate it, and not all places have rendering plants or garbage dumps that will take animals bodies--if they do, this service is also very expensive. So for the owner who doesn't give a rip about his horse, he can't take it to slaughter, and he can't/won't afford carcass disposal, but if he feeds it _just enough to keep it alive_ he can avoid all these pesky problems.


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## bubba13

You're a vegan? Good.

Do you eat Jello, pudding, Junior Mints, or similar candy? Do you eat any hearty soups, like potato or cream of mushroom? Do you wear or own any leather products (shoes, belts, car seats, etc.)? Do you have any pets? Do you feed them commercial pet foods?

Just checking.


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## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> You're a vegan? Good.
> 
> Do you eat Jello, pudding, Junior Mints, or similar candy? Do you eat any hearty soups, like potato or cream of mushroom? Do you wear or own any leather products (shoes, belts, car seats, etc.)? Do you have any pets? Do you feed them commercial pet foods?
> 
> Just checking.


All the food I eat is from a vegan store that has nothing to do with animals. No I hate leather. and yes I have 2 horses. Nothing in the food comes from another animal.


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## bubba13

You sure about that? Not saying it's neccesarily the case, but some equine food products do contain animal fat.

We're both of your horses rescued from slaughter?

So you don't have any dogs or cats?


----------



## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> You sure about that? Not saying it's neccesarily the case, but some equine food products do contain animal fat.
> 
> We're both of your horses rescued from slaughter?
> 
> So you don't have any dogs or cats?


yes I'm sure, like you said, some do.and no neither of them were rescued from slaughter and no I don't have any dogs or cats.


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## bubba13

You sure do talk big, then, for someone who hasn't rescued any horses.

I own five horses, and I *have* rescued two horses from the kill pen. Am I still the bad guy, now? I also own four dogs, and three of those were rescues.


----------



## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> You sure do talk big, then, for someone who hasn't rescued any horses.
> 
> I own five horses, and I *have* rescued two horses from the kill pen. Am I still the bad guy, now? I also own four dogs, and three of those were rescues.


maybe if I had the money to transport the horses here, der.and you are only the bad guy if you support horse slaughter.


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## BluMagic

I don't want to butt in but:

I have two dogs. One of them was a rescue. The other I got as a puppy that had the possible future of going to the local dog pound as the first did. 

Blu is a rescue as well. I think every animal I have at the moment is a rescue. 

One horse, two dogs, and a cat. 

Speaking of rescues here, I wish out local dog pound would be better taken care of. They just hose down the pens to clean them...with the dogs inside by the way. Every dog gets the same kind of food and the same serving. So far that I know of, the dogs are checked on twice daily. Sometimes around noon if the pens need cleaning. These dogs have 3-8 days, I believe, to be claimed or adopted. Often the dogs are euthanized before given the chance at a new life. What do you think they do with the euthanized dogs??? 

^I'm not positive about that one but just the thought scares me....


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## Vidaloco

Its illegal to bury a horse? Oh dear, please don't tell me that :shock: I have one buried in my pasture and several dogs and kittys buried in my front yard 

I have a rooster grave too :shock: :shock: do I have to dig him up too?


----------



## .Delete.

So just because i support slaugher means im a bad person? Sorry, but im sure you have beliefs that i don't believe in. Im not saying your a bad person for disagreeing with me. I'v resuced horse from slaughter, i have had 3 horse from rescue and i have worked with over 4 rescue horses. How bad am i now? I just think suffering horses should be put out of their misery.


----------



## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> So just because i support slaugher means im a bad person? Sorry, but im sure you have beliefs that i don't believe in. Im not saying your a bad person for disagreeing with me. I'v resuced horse from slaughter, i have had 3 horse from rescue and i have worked with over 4 rescue horses. How bad am i now? I just think suffering horses should be put out of their misery.


But not all horses that go to slaughter are that way.and They should be more humane about it. Why chop them up and feed them to people afterwards.I mean cows and pigs aren't meant to be kept as pets, but horses are. It's just not right. I can't look at the posters of horses on my wall anymore because all I can picture is the slaughter house and I start crying. That's why I avoid my room.


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## bubba13

First, to whoever asked, yes, in most places, it is illegal to bury animal carcasses on your property, mostly due to fears about contamination of groundwater. Check with your local law enforcement office. Now, police aren’t patrolling the streets looking for fresh graves, and I don’t really know how strict they are in enforcing the law. Basically, don’t get caught, and you’ll be fine—but if you have a well, I’d be worried about the bodies decomposing and contaminating it.


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## bubba13

Now, to alli0707….when did I say I supported horse slaughter? Because I can’t remember ever saying that. And while we’re pointing fingers at the bad guys/good guys, let me say this: I consider people like you to be “bad guys.” Sure, you have noble intentions, but your group of people has made things so much harder on horses. Before, there was the American slaughterhouse. Inhumane transport, yes, ugly to think about, yes—but *infinitely* better than being hauled hundreds of miles to Mexico, then abused, neglected, and slaughtered in deplorable conditions. Before, horses were crammed onto trailers, made to suffer for a couple days, and then quickly (and usually painlessly) killed. Then it was all over. Down Mexico way, there are any USDA officers to make sure things are done right. You’ve seen those videos—the botched captive bolt gun in the shoulder, the stabbing and cutting of the back multiple times, etc.

And for those that don’t go to Mexico or Canada—their lives are saved! Yay! But they are unwanted horses. And there are a lot of them…..I estimate between half and one million (or more). They starve and end up like that one Delete posted. Or are abused/neglected by their owners. I personally have been offered three free horses since the slaughter ban—they’re nice horses, but nobody wants them, and nobody’s taking care of them. I know someone who bought nine—yes, nine—registered, well-bred weanlings at an auction for $50—that’s not per head, that’s total, $5 a piece. When horses are that cheap, do you really think people are taking good care of them? Of course not! But you close your eyes to this and chant “Slaughter is wrong! Slaughter is wrong!” until you feel better.

“Animal rights activists” such as yourself should take the time to do your research if you really want to help out. All of the “facts” you gave me turned out to be fiction when I researched them (It’s illegal to eat horsemeat in Mexico? Fewer horses are being slaughtered now than 20 years ago?) which, I’m sorry to say, is a testament to your ignorance on the subject. If you had really taken the time to read your literature, you would have realized that banning slaughter in the US was not the logical solution for the time being. Perhaps you could have introduced legislation to make transport and slaughter more humane, or educated people about not breeding more unwanted horses. Now that’s a thought, huh? Things like that would have actually helped.

Now while you point fingers and call people like Delete and I “pro-slaughter beings” and “smartasses,” you are doing nothing to help. Now that slaughter is banned, there are so many unwanted horses with nowhere to go. But you pat yourself on the back for having slaughter banned and saving the ponies—but you don’t actually save the ponies! You leave that to responsible people like Delete and me, who actually put our money/time/effort where our mouths are and pick up the slack for people like you. In addition to my two personal rescues, I have helped several other horses find their way from the slaughter yard into loving homes. Each Christmas I give a big donation to a local animal rescue. You say you can’t afford to rescue (even though you can afford your own two horses…go figure)? Well, neither can most other people, and that’s the problem. So many horses, nowhere to go. Because most people won’t take in the hundreds of thousands of unwanted horses, just like you. That’s why they’re being shipped to Mexico. I can take a few, Delete can take a few, and the rest…..end up slaughtered in Mexico or starved. 

I’m not pro-slaughter. I’m anti-alternative, as are almost all reputable equine sources. AQHA and AVMA, to name a few.


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## bubba13

Now, you say that cows and pigs aren’t meant to be kept as pets, but horses are? OK, if you say so. In the US, cats and dogs are classified as companion animals. Cattle, swine, poultry—and equines—are considered livestock. Horses are unique in that they’re also beasts of burden who are able to perform a service to people. They’re all animals, though, and just because horses are prettier or more romantic doesn’t make them any different. It’s no more immoral to slaughter a horse than a cow than a puppy dog. Yet in India, where cattle are sacred, the very thought of killing a cow is sacrilege, while we don’t think twice about eating them in the US. Dogs are eaten in China. Monkeys are eaten in Africa. Horses are eaten in France. What, I ask you, is the difference?

Another question: Why do you care what happens to the horses body after it’s dead? I’d rather see it go for meat and at least be used for something than rot in the ground, all the while polluting the environment. Chopping up a dead animal is not inhumane. It’s _dead_ for cryin’ out loud! Not to mention, the whole _point_ of slaughter is to get meat….so why wouldn’t you feed them to people?

And one more question: Where do you sleep? Seriously, if you can’t go in your room because it’ll make you cry. … Funny, when I look at my horses, I don’t see a slaughterhouse. I see their devotion, trust, and gratitude that I have given them a second chance at life.


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## Vidaloco

Sorry to tell you this but in Kansas its not illegal to bury an animal.
http://www.kansas.gov/kahd/laws/animal_removal.shtml
Trust me for the $350 we spent for the men with the backhoe, the $250 we spent to have her humanely euthanized we did it right and legally. You had me worried :? 
A note as a moderator. *Please no name calling or profanity. You have a right to your opinions as do all members of this forum. Try to voice those opinions in a rational, intellegent, adult manner. *


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## bubba13

Vidaloco said:


> Sorry to tell you this but in Kansas its not illegal to bury an animal.
> http://www.kansas.gov/kahd/laws/animal_removal.shtml
> Trust me for the $350 we spent for the men with the backhoe, the $250 we spent to have her humanely euthanized we did it right and legally. You had me worried :?


I'm glad to hear that--it makes things easier on horse owners. It is illegal where I'm at, and carries a hefty fine if you're caught.


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## Vidaloco

I was almost afraid to post anything about buring our poor girl. Didn't want the health dept. on my doorstep :shock: I know there were problems with people throwing pig carcasses in a creek several years ago. Nasty :evil: I agree there needs to be regulations set.


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## RockinTheBit07

Slaughter is a tough issue for me. I wish there was more i could do to help horses that are abandoned and in need of rescue or adoption, but i canrt afford to buy my own horse. I have ot pay my way through college and am lucky to lease a horse. But some day i would love to buy a lot of land and open a safe haven for neglected, unwanted, old, injured horses that would go to slaughter but instead can eat grass all day and be happy. I just wish there was a more humane way to slaughter ALL animals. Like injecting them so they die peacfully, then do w/e. I dunno its a cruel mad world. I just hate the thought of our horses being sent into mexico to suffer even more. 

In a way i guess i am okay with consumption of horses, but i wish they would kill them humanely where they arent in fear before and during death. 

I also believe we should have some laws on breeding like in China people can only have 2 kids due to over population. We need to leave it to professionals to breed. Which makes me think of one lady where i ride who breeds her retard warmbloods. She interbreeds them and has a lot of horses that she cant sell. No one will buy them because they are crazy and so is she lol. Anywho a few summers back when we had a real big heat wave she forgot to water them for a few days and like i guess 8 of them died. She is definately in my eyes is NOT a professional breeder because who forgets to water their horses? Sorry for getting off topic :roll:


----------



## jazzyrider

so far i havent had a whole lot to say in this thread as horse slaughter isnt a huge issue in australia and to be honest, i well up with tears just thinking about what those poor horses go through.

however, some things that have been said have made me think about things. i am beginning to understand where those who are for slaughter are coming from. if there are less horses being slaughtered then there are more horses slowly starving to death which, obviously is a worse way to die than IF they were being put down humanely (and i know they arent). i can see the logic in that. and it does seem like the problems lay in things like the way they are transported and they way they are put down. 

im having trouble putting words what im thinking so im gunna try and keep it short and not at all fancy  my understanding is this: if the horses were transported in respectable conditions, fed while they waited and were then put down in a humane manner, it would be more accepted as a reasonable way of dealing with the amount of neglected, starving horses that there are. the issues arise from their treatment and the way they are so horribly slaughtered. (tell me if im getting it wrong.)

im starting to see that some of the things being said like how many of them are better off is probably true. this may be very sad and i still wish slaughter wasnt an issue but the harsh reality is that it is needed. i personally would like to see an animal humanely put to rest than see it suffer. but i know they dont do it humanely so i am somewhat torn about how i feel in regards to this subject. i guess im starting to see both sides of the subject though


----------



## alli0707

First of all, those horses were already going to Mexico when the US plants were open, Bubba. Now that the US plants are closed people have a better chance at getting to the horses to rescue them. When the plant in Illinois was closed a team of rescue people went there and got all the horses out of there and gave them good homes. Those horses would be dead if it wasn't for that plant closing down.So there is a good side to the plants in the US getting shut down. The same happened with horses in Texas, I just saw the people talking about the ones in illinois on the news. I'm done arguing with you. I don't want these horses being treated badly at all, and that is what they are getting. Again, there is better solutions. Don't ask what they are because I really don't know. I know it's possible that these horses can be saved.


----------



## bubba13

alli0707 said:


> Again, there is better solutions. Don't ask what they are because I really don't know.


And that right there just about sums up this entire thread.

*edited because i dont really think thats appropriate nor the message we are trying to send from this forum. not only that, there was no need for it - jazzy*


----------



## jazzyrider

bubba13 said:


> alli0707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, there is better solutions. Don't ask what they are because I really don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> And that right there just about sums up this entire thread.
> 
> *I'm off to go murder some foals now.....*
Click to expand...

was that really necessary?? im actually quite offended by that and somewhat concerned that someone on this forum sees fit to say something like that :shock:


----------



## drop_your_reins

I'm offended by that remark too.

I had a whole passionate shpiel against the slaughter of horses. Practical reasons and moral reasons, but my browser is a doodoo head.. so I'll have to post it tomorrow (no more time tonight).

Although I do think overbreeding is the problem, so educating people about breeding should help. Asking questions like "Will this foal be marketable, if so in what possible discipline? Do I need this horse, or am I breeding for the sake of it? Can I afford to keep this horse if the market slumps? Will I have the time to train this horse? If it's not a registerable foal, will it still be in demand/talented?" Sadly (while I don't think it should be true, it sort of is) a horse with papers is often valued over a horse without papers. If your horse isn't registerable with an association, you better take the time to train it and make it marketable to decrease its chances of going to slaugher.


----------



## alli0707

drop_your_reins said:


> I'm offended by that remark too.
> 
> I had a whole passionate shpiel against the slaughter of horses. Practical reasons and moral reasons, but my browser is a doodoo head.. so I'll have to post it tomorrow (no more time tonight).
> 
> Although I do think overbreeding is the problem, so educating people about breeding should help. Asking questions like "Will this foal be marketable, if so in what possible discipline? Do I need this horse, or am I breeding for the sake of it? Can I afford to keep this horse if the market slumps? Will I have the time to train this horse? If it's not a registerable foal, will it still be in demand/talented?" Sadly (while I don't think it should be true, it sort of is) a horse with papers is often valued over a horse without papers. If your horse isn't registerable with an association, you better take the time to train it and make it marketable to decrease its chances of going to slaugher.


Bubba has a wall up. He/she won't let in anything I say. I let in alot of stuff he/she says but he/she just goes and makes me feel stupid about what I'm saying when I read my posts over and over again and I don't think there is anything wrong with them. It's kind of irritating. My intentions are very good and yet I'm made to be the bad guy here. I'm not the one saying "I'm gonna go murder foals".


----------



## drop_your_reins

I'm not sure what your referring to? I was referring to the "I'm gonna go murder some foals remark" not anything that you said?


----------



## kim_angel

bubba13 said:


> And that right there just about sums up this entire thread.
> 
> I'm off to go murder some foals now.....


wow, what a crappy thing to say.

Any respect I had for you or your opinions has totally vanished. 
:?


----------



## .Delete.

alli0707 said:


> Bubba has a wall up. He/she won't let in anything I say. I let in alot of stuff he/she says but he/she just goes and makes me feel stupid about what I'm saying


You do the same thing


----------



## alli0707

.Delete. said:


> alli0707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bubba has a wall up. He/she won't let in anything I say. I let in alot of stuff he/she says but he/she just goes and makes me feel stupid about what I'm saying
> 
> 
> 
> You do the same thing
Click to expand...

"I let in alot of stuff he/she says"


----------



## alli0707

drop_your_reins said:


> I'm not sure what your referring to? I was referring to the "I'm gonna go murder some foals remark" not anything that you said?


I'm just pointing at that they aren't a good person, even more so then I thought.


----------



## bubba13

It's called sarcasm, my dear friends, and since you were all painting me to be the bad guy, I thought you could sense the sarcasm dripping in my, er, words. My kind friend alli0707 has been giving me this persona of a horse-murderer (since I don't support her ridiculous opinion) so I thought I would give her something to fuel her fire. If you think I was actually going to kill baby horses, then, I must say, you are sadly mistaken.....as I am the one who is actually doing the horse *rescuing*, as I might remind you.

So, am I still a bad person? I'm not the one making false claims, lying, saying I know more than I do, falsifying evidence, making up bogus statistics, pointing fingers, swearing, putting folks on my "selfish people" list, or being immature.

You may not think I'm nice, but the fact is, I'm not the one being rude, even though others are (and it's directed at me, so I must play the bad guy, even though I'm the only one actually doing anything for equine rights here). I'm simply pointing out what should be obvious and separating fact from fiction, because if there's anything I can't and won't tolerate it's lying.

And, alli0707, as for me "not letting stuff in," I'm not so dedicated to any view I hold that I won't consider change. I am always willing to learn more, and change my opinion as a result, something that you apparently cannot or will not do (instead you retreat and call me a "bad person"). If you had given me any meaningful evidence to support that you were in the right and I was wrong, I honestly would have backed down and admitted my fault. Yet you could produce no statistics, articles, or other information to back up your claims.

I will leave you with this quote from the great Bertrand Russell: 
"The opinions that are held with passion are always those for which no good ground exists; indeed the passion is the measure of the holder’s lack of rational conviction."


----------



## alli0707

bubba13 said:


> It's called sarcasm, my dear friends, and since you were all painting me to be the bad guy, I thought you could sense the sarcasm dripping in my, er, words. My kind friend alli0707 has been giving me this persona of a horse-murderer (since I don't support her ridiculous opinion) so I thought I would give her something to fuel her fire. If you think I was actually going to kill baby horses, then, I must say, you are sadly mistaken.....as I am the one who is actually doing the horse *rescuing*, as I might remind you.
> 
> So, am I still a bad person? I'm not the one making false claims, lying, saying I know more than I do, falsifying evidence, making up bogus statistics, pointing fingers, swearing, putting folks on my "selfish people" list, or being immature.
> 
> You may not think I'm nice, but the fact is, I'm not the one being rude, even though others are (and it's directed at me, so I must play the bad guy, even though I'm the only one actually doing anything for equine rights here). I'm simply pointing out what should be obvious and separating fact from fiction, because if there's anything I can't and won't tolerate it's lying.
> 
> And, alli0707, as for me "not letting stuff in," I'm not so dedicated to any view I hold that I won't consider change. I am always willing to learn more, and change my opinion as a result, something that you apparently cannot or will not do (instead you retreat and call me a "bad person"). If you had given me any meaningful evidence to support that you were in the right and I was wrong, I honestly would have backed down and admitted my fault. Yet you could produce no statistics, articles, or other information to back up your claims.
> 
> I will leave you with this quote from the great Bertrand Russell:
> "The opinions that are held with passion are always those for which no good ground exists; indeed the passion is the measure of the holder’s lack of rational conviction."


you're in denial.


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## bubba13

In denial of....? What, pray? 

Of being a horrible person who deserves to die? That you are right, and I am wrong?

Notice how the topic has switched from "What to do about equine slaughter" to "You are mean and I hate you."

When you're ready to stop calling me names, let me know, and we can actually discuss solutions to the problem at hand (overbreeding, humane euthanasia, etc.).

I'll be waiting.


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## Vidaloco

I'm sorry I feel the need to lock this thread. Unfortunately this is a very disturbing topic where opinions are strong. I think we have come to the point to shut er' down. Personal attacks are counterproductive to the atmosphere we're trying to maintain on the Horse Forum, and I see this topic going nowhere but downhill. If the Administrator sees fit to unlock it It will continue.


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