# horse electric collars???



## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

pls do not think i am this crazy person who wants to electrify my horse. i am just trying to find a solution to my current problem.

the reason for this post is to see what others thought. i have used a similar thing for training my hunting dogs so i understand the proper use of them.
and with one of my horses seeking to keep charging me in the field when i go out to catch him i have looked into other resources.
since i am timid, not getting any help from my trainers, and regular ground work is not helping i have to figure out another way to get this under control before someone gets hurt. and yes i have him up for sale no takers yet.

here is just one link of many that i found. but this is to show you what it is
Tri-tronics ViceBreaker H2 Electronic Training Collar for Horses -- aka VICE BREAKER.

it would only be used properly to assert a shock when i am not close enough to punish him. i am hoping maybe if i use this for his ear pinning before other aggression behaviors start i might beable to stop the charging and help get the dominance issue under control.

any one use one of these before??
sorry if this offends anyone i don't mean to, just trying to get a dangerous situation under control before something bad happens.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I think there are better ways to deal with the problem. The shock collar could very easily make him much more aggressive, as when he sees you he gets pain. If I would you I would just take a lunge whip out with me.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

it wouldn't be used for when he sees me. it would only be used if when approaching him he pins his ears or charges me - showing signs of dominance. i am never close enough to punish him for it. 
and the only reason i am considering it is bc he is starting to ignore the lunge whip. he is not scared of the cracking noise, it actually hitting him, or it swinging in the air... so i am at a loss especially having gone through 5 trainers in the last 2 month just for this issue.


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## ConfusciusWasAGreatTeachr (Oct 29, 2011)

I agree with AlexS. This sounds like a 'respect' issue caused by lack of prevention on your part.
Could a shock collar stop the charging? Maybe. But that only stops the symptom and doesn't fix the route cause.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

If he is not respecting the lunge whip, hit him harder with it, and repeatedly. I'd be knocking the snot out of him with it if I were you. 
You really need to fix this issue and stop being timid because even if the shock collar does stop the charging, he will develop another bad habit as he doesn't respect you.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i have hit the snot out of him with it, it makes him angrier and the last time i did it he missed me by a few inches when charging bc my dad came out with a hockey stick and layed it on his rump multiple times to get back. it took 5 hits for him to get back. 

yes its respect issue, i know that already ;/ and when it comes across in an aggressive dog i have found it worked very well and helped switch there lives from dangerous to not aggressive. and i have used with over 10 dogs so i was just hoping maybe it could work.
i have been trying to work on this problem for years. i dont have the right support in trainers to get this fixed and i am not getting at him hard enough. 

now as i am trying to understand your points of view. how would this make him worse? if he pins his ears at a horse they move away bc they dont want to be hurt by kicking or biting. so when i approach if i assert pain once or twice after ears pinned he might figure out to associate it with that behavior. as horses are very smart i think in 3 tries he would understand.
so explain how it could back fire please??? jsut want to get all the info and opinions i can as i dont want to make things worse


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

If your father had to smack him multiple times with a hockey stick, what makes you think a shock collar is going to be effective?

Frankly, this goes _way_ beyond disrespect and right into plain aggression. I wouldn't have a horse on the property who deliberately came after me.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i am in the process of trying to sell him with this market its not going well. he needs an experienced person and i am not it. i am only looking for other options to see if maybe there is a solution.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I know I'm going to upset the tweens/teens and butterfly farters, but have you considered putting him down? Aggressive horses have no market, even in a good economy.

Besides, how would you feel if you sold him on and he horribly hurt or even killed someone else? I'd not want that on my conscience.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i have considered it. and it does not upset me one bit. i am just trying to see if there is another thing i can try before going there. 
i have discussed it with both my vet and parents and the vet is the one who pointed out that someone she knows uses this for aggression and has had tons of success. so i figured i would ask you guys before contacting that person.
he is not a certified trainer so i am hestiant to talk to him


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Kait, at least you're looking for ways to see if you can turn him around. I certainly can't fault you for that, but you might reach a point where it's better to let him go than try to fix him. Some horses just can't be fixed, unfortunately.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i know sr i just want to make sure i try everything before calling it quits. 
:/ its one of my faults but if there is anything i can do to get this behavior some how fixed it would be great.

its really hard to explain how great he is once he is caught. the attitude just goes away. so i truly think there is hope its just a matter of finding out what works for him


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

The reason I very much doubt that a shock collar will not work, is that he won't associate the pain, with you. He needs to think that YOU will kill him if he acts aggressively towards you. A horse is not a dog. They think and react very differently, a dog is a predatory animal, a horse is a prey animal. Apples and oranges.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i know i am just hoping at this point maybe it could work :/


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I would steer very clear - you will probably make him worse as not only will he be aggressive, he will also be confused. An aggressive, confused horse, is an extremely dangerous horse. 

Can you send him to a reputable trainer? Rather than having lessons with him, send him away for a few weeks to someone that knows what they're doing. That way they can get on top of the behaviour, and teach you later in the piece when the horse has become more submissive. That way you're not fighting an uphill battle.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hmm, I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent so just stay with me, okay?

Back in the late 70's, my Dad was training Appy show horses for a ranch up in Kansas. They purchased a weanling stud for like $85,000 and immediately sent him to a "well-known halter trainer". After a little over a year with this "trainer" the horse was sent to another trainer for saddle breaking. This horse had been so spoiled by the halter trainer that he had developed serious aggression issues. 

He would chew on you all the time and if you tried to stop him, he would go absolutely bat-s**t crazy; pawing, kicking, charging, lunging, biting and taking chunks if he could. He had zero respect for anything, whips, ropes, nothing. Horse was brought back to the ranch and that was about the time that my Dad went to work for them. They wanted the horse trained for WP and some other events that included calf roping so it fell to my Dad to try to handle him. 

After that horse hurt him a couple of times, he had to resort to inflicting serious pain on him just to remain safe. He never went into the horse's stall without a length of chain that he would use to beat the horse off if he charged. There were other things he did that I really won't mention for fear of anyone else reading this and getting the idea to copy them in their head...but they were unpleasant and some of them were cruel. 

BUT, he ended up being able to handle the horse and the horse did develop a hint of respect for my Dad. He would still sneak a bite/paw/kick if he thought Dad wasn't paying attention but mostly, he behaved. Only for Dad though, nobody else could handle the horse with any degree of safety at all.

After Dad left the ranch and was no longer training for them, that horse got a groom down in his stall and nearly killed him. He never went to another show and 3 months later, he was dead. They "claimed" blister beetle infestation in the hay but I still believe that they killed him for the insurance $$ because not a single other horse in that entire full barn got sick.

Moral of the story, there are some horses that just can't be helped and if the horse is _truly_ aggressive and _truly_ dangerous, then perhaps it would be best for everyone involved (including the horse) to have him PTS. If he's already been through 5 trainers and not a one of them could handle/correct the issue, then there is likely not a whole lot of people in the entire world that will be able to help you.

The most dangerous thing about horses like that is that the outcome can go one of two ways when you punish them hard... 1) The horse was bluffing to begin with and they give up, or 2) The horse isn't bluffing and he'll get ****ed off, which makes him mad on top of being aggressive and will likely end with one or more people hurt.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

thats what i figured smrobs... i was just hoping maybe there was a chance even a slight chance at that. i am going to try one more trainer who handles behavior issues so hopefully they can help me. if they can't then PTS is my only other option. i was just crossing my fingers and hoping maybe it was worth a try if this trainer couldn't help. :/


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I hope that trainer has better luck with him than the others. I hate for a horse to be put down for behavioral things if they are sound in every other way, but I would hate it more for someone to get hurt by him.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

and smrobs i bet your dad had alot of confidence and experience on his side as well that made him get a minor break through with that crazy horse


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

very true. i agree totally.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

He did. More than most folks could ever dream of.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm just going to throw a few suggestions.. get something to calm him down. I've heard raspberry leaves or there are SO many supplements that will help calm him down. 

Second, the fact that any person thinks they can mold a horse into whatever is not true. Some people and some horses DO NOT WORK and WILL NEVER WORK. Take my horse for example.. he was with the wrong people, his last one was nicer than his priors but he still had no sense of security, and tried to kill himself rather than to trust. 

Third, there could be some kind of a pain thing going on. Any kind of discombobulation can provoke a LOT of aggression. Horse chiropractors can help immensely. 

Fourth.. find someone who knows how to handle harder horses! You are going to get killed if he keeps this up and your horse is going to be harder to catch if he keeps chasing him away.

Fifth, obviously upping the pain isn't working.. so try to praise him for the good things he does rather than punishing him for putting his ears back. Sure you can drive him out of your space, but only do that.. push him away and when he does something good, then overly praise him. He might feel like he can't trust you and now that you are just hurting him every time he sees you, he can't relax and be a horse.. he has to be on guard or whatnot.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

he doesn't do anything good when he is loose. he is an absolute terror.

i have had him checked throughly by 2 different vets in the last month, have had a chiro out last month, and have multiple behavior issues trainers work with him and have had specialist work on him as they thought maybe there was brain damage caused from the trauma on his head. 
so far nothing has worked and there is nothing causing him to be angry.

i have also tried different calming supplements, and herbs and they didn't help any. they just put him on edge for some reason and got him more worked up.

it truly is an awkward thing as he is only aggressive when turned out once caught he is the best guy in the world.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

how is he with other horses?? Maybe a cranky ol' broodmare can put him in his place when it comes to respect & manners,they are the BEST teachers:wink:


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

haha broodmare...i could use one if you have a spare to whip him into shape  he is pretty nasty in the field as well and sometimes he has to be seperated bc there are days where he will fight to the death with the boys :/. even the mare doesn't want to be bothered with him most of the time. he hangs by himself usually as far away from people and horses as he can. anti social horse if it makes a difference

he refuses to trust anything.


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## Stephie (Sep 12, 2011)

You said he'd fight to the death with the other male horses? Is he a stallion? 

I would try a good problem-solving trainer nearby, if not.. well, as said, maybe the best thing for everyone including himself would be to put him to sleep.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I think he needs to go to a trainer, permanently (selling him to a trainer). One that can be with him 1 vs. 1 with the experience. 

Eitherway it's up to you


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Fifth, obviously upping the pain isn't working.. so try to praise him for the good things he does rather than punishing him for putting his ears back. Sure you can drive him out of your space, but only do that.. push him away and when he does something good, then overly praise him. He might feel like he can't trust you and now that you are just hurting him every time he sees you, he can't relax and be a horse.. he has to be on guard or whatnot.


And that sounds like a great idea, but how exactly would you praise a horse who is coming at you with true aggression and wants to kill you? 
I assume that you have never dealt with a truly aggressive horse before (not just a biter or kicker) because you would be 6' under if you tried to do that. 


OP what is the turnout situation for your horse? How large, other horses, how much time? Does the horse do the same thing if the other horses are brought in at the same time?


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## Pyrrhic (Dec 11, 2011)

You could be describing a horse I had last year. When I got him it was from a home where the owner was scared of him and he was insecure so took over the dominant role. An insecure dominant horse is a dangerous one. 

Like you say with your boy, once you caught him he was very docile but in the field good luck to you. Even trying to work him on the lunge or loose schooling and he would come at you, ears flat teeth out and try and strike you with his front legs. 

What I worked out was that in the past, with his owner who was scared of him, he would display this sort of behaviour and the she would give up straight away. He wasn't being aggressive, he was repeating a learned behaviour through insecurity and he soon learned that if he displayed aggressive type behaviour he would be rewarded with not having to work. 

So I stood my ground to him, squared up to him whenever I felt a shift in his body language (never waited for him to be right on top of me), hit my jacket, cracked a lunge whip, etc. The first several times he would keep on coming but I held my ground to him and he would always swerve off. There was only once where he came close enough that he could have hurt me so I threw a rubber bucket at his backside. I never worked him on my own, and sometimes brought someone else into the schooling area to lend a hand.

I brought him in every single day so he got used to what was expected of him I gave him very firm, clear boundaries. for example he was always to walk at my shoulder, never behind me, never in front. He was never to try and look for treats on me, he was to respect my personal space, etc. When he started understanding what was expected of him, what the boundaries were and what his routine was he slowly became more respectful. 

It was a lot of work though and I feel for you.

Although I was fine training him on the ground, when he started to get more respectful I sold him on as I didn't have the confidence to cope with riding him. I knew under saddle he was very good though and he's now in a great home as someone's first horse and you'd never know he had so many ground issues.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I think I've told this story before, but my farrier had a stud colt who charged him aggressively and even got ahold of him and bit him up pretty good. Very aggressive horse, very dangerous situation. He put the shock collar on him, hit him good the next time he charged, and hasn't had a problem since. Although I imagine some horses might require more repetitions.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Stephie said:


> You said he'd fight to the death with the other male horses? Is he a stallion?
> 
> I would try a good problem-solving trainer nearby, if not.. well, as said, maybe the best thing for everyone including himself would be to put him to sleep.


gelded at 7 when i found him on my property. so gelded late and was malnurished (sp)... and thats the only type of person i would sell him to is a trainer who would be able to handle him. i would never just give him to a newbie he is way to dangerous for that.. :/


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

AlexS said:


> And that sounds like a great idea, but how exactly would you praise a horse who is coming at you with true aggression and wants to kill you?
> I assume that you have never dealt with a truly aggressive horse before (not just a biter or kicker) because you would be 6' under if you tried to do that.
> 
> 
> OP what is the turnout situation for your horse? How large, other horses, how much time? Does the horse do the same thing if the other horses are brought in at the same time?


he is turned out 24/7. i used to keep him in a 16x24 stall at night when i first found him to help make sure he was getting his food and supplements at the time. but once he put on the weight he refused to go into stalls. so i have had him turned out all day everyday with access to a run in. 

nope i have never had a problem getting the other horses when he was around. this was the first thats why i was confused. i usually have to catch everyone then go for him. sometimes i get lucky and can catch him first. but he has to keep his halter on all the time which i hate and sometimes i take it off. and with a bucket of grain i can catch him easily no problems. no grain = fight


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Pyrrhic said:


> You could be describing a horse I had last year. When I got him it was from a home where the owner was scared of him and he was insecure so took over the dominant role. An insecure dominant horse is a dangerous one.
> 
> Like you say with your boy, once you caught him he was very docile but in the field good luck to you. Even trying to work him on the lunge or loose schooling and he would come at you, ears flat teeth out and try and strike you with his front legs.
> 
> ...


 
when he first started showing the signs i stayed on top of him and he was getting better. i actually did the same and sold him to someone when he 8 after a year of having him. i found him again a few years ago at an auction and he is just crazy now. the last person really spoiled him and i cant get under control. 
the more i face him and put up the dominant role the more he fights. so i am at wits end. i will keep giving it tries but i sadly will be carrying a bat or hockey stick and lunge whip in there with me.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> I think I've told this story before, but my farrier had a stud colt who charged him aggressively and even got ahold of him and bit him up pretty good. Very aggressive horse, very dangerous situation. He put the shock collar on him, hit him good the next time he charged, and hasn't had a problem since. Although I imagine some horses might require more repetitions.


yeap your the reason why i started researching it 

the last trainer i have been talking to said if he can't face him on the ground and get respect within 2 weeks. he will try the collar. if he gets worse from it he will be pts. hopefully he wont need it :/


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

alexs - sorry missed some of questions. 
he is a 15 yr gelding, 16 hands, told he was twh but think he some draft mix. 
he is turned out 24/7 now with two fields. one a smaller sacrfice field about 65 yardsx 65 yards. the back gate is open to a large field of 5 acres.

he is turned out with a 21 yr old mare about 14.3h, a twh gelding 12yo 16h, and now also a 15 yo 15.3 h arabian gelding

they all are caught for feeding in the morning and at night and put in to standing stalls to eat there grain and supplements. about 30 minutes. and in that time i put about 3 square bales in the field separated into about 10-12 smaller piles for the horses to rotate on. then everyone gets worked about 20 minutes at night (dont have an indoor just some christmas lights on my round pen) and do some ground work with everyone and depending maybe a short ride at the walk fine tuning little things. on weekends everyone but the mare is worked about 2 hours. (trail ride) and depending if i have riding buddies then i take more than one horse out and do a group ride. 

this might also help:
after riding him whether it is short or long and i take the tack off and groom him and bring him to the field. i can do whatever i want in the field and he will just follow me. he turns into a puppy dog after being worked even if lightly worked.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Personally, if you can tell the difference between fear, lack of respect and aggression, and this truly is aggression, I would say give it a shot.

If your last option if PTS, why not? It may work, it may not work. Horses are aggressive for a reason, and unfortunately it has fallen to you to deal with this horse. You're good, I would have turned him out and away a long time ago.

I've seen your threads, read your responses enough to know you have tried your hardest, and you are more than capable of doing the groundwork.

Some horses are just mean. Its unfortunate. 
A broodmare at my yard is nicknamed 'dragon' because unless you're the YO you better move fast. She's a one of a kind over here, and produces lovely foals. biggest test is if they last three days, then she's fine. I think she has kicked out twice and killed two foals. No rhyme nor reason.

What do you feed him? That also may have something to do with it, however I am not a feed expert. Is he getting enough grass? Has anyone else with horse knowledge tried to handle him and had the same response?

Some horses and people just don't match. Some are just bad to the bone- horses and humans.

Good luck though, sounds like you have a long journey ahead of you x


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Personally, if you can tell the difference between fear, lack of respect and aggression, and this truly is aggression, I would say give it a shot.
> 
> If your last option if PTS, why not? It may work, it may not work. Horses are aggressive for a reason, and unfortunately it has fallen to you to deal with this horse. You're good, I would have turned him out and away a long time ago.
> 
> ...


thanks duffy

i dont let anyone but me and the trainers work with him in the field. to much risk involved. he does the same thing to anyone who goes in the field. doesn't matter how much he likes you once he is caught, he makes it a battle to be caught for everyone. even the trainers who i sent him to didn't have any luck. 2 trainers ago made him worse because before i sent him to him he would back off with just the whip but afterwards there is no response. 

i at first when he started showing signs it was because of disrespect from all the spoiling. it had gotten out of control and mad a monster. now it is a mix of disrespect and true fear. its hard to explain in his eyes and ears you can kinda tell when he is not thinking and when he gets into this blank state and just goes into fight zone.
once he is in that state your asking to be killed. he doesn't back off anymore. and the more we push the faster this states comes. before we could work with him for 30 minutes without ever reaching that point now it all it takes is 10 minutes of persistance and then boom boxing begins.

as for feed: triple crown lite feed he is on twice a day with only a coffee tin scoop and trying a new supplement called Animed Vita Calm , . the others are harder keepers and are on oats and sweet feed and bunch of other stuff. if he eats this i cant get near him for days as he becomes to hot just from the energy the food provided.

we have been changing feeds around to what some specialist have suggested but have not seen any improvements yet :?


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

I use e-collars with my dogs. It's inhumane and abusive to start shocking a dog for doing the wrong thing when you never told them what the right thing was to begin with. My terrier wants to kill the squirrel, but knows what a recall is and knows she should hurry and park her butt at my feet when I tell her to. She gets a correction the second she decides to test and see if she can ignore the recall. Why? Because she knows what's expected of her.

If your horse is stressed and dominant/dangerous in the field, and no amount of correction has fixed the problem while he's loose, do not go to a shock collar until you are 100% positive that he understands what the correct choice should be. 

If this were my horse I would confine him to a stall and not let him out on pasture, ever, unless he was under my direct control (lead rope, lunge line). I saw that you said he refuses to go into his stall since he got better, and I don't understand why. I would get him in there one way or another. I'd either spook him forward with a lunge whip, work his *** off until he was dripping sweat and then (properly cooled) put him in, back him in, starve him for a day with only fresh water and then tease him with a hot yummy smelly mash that he can only have when he goes into the stall. If all that failed, I'd put him in the round pen and tie him up when I wanted to use it for the other horses. 
I'd establish the fact that every move he makes is because I allow him to do it. Everything he does that I didn't tell him to do gets a light correction and him put back into the general position he was in. He won't stand still? I'd make him go in circles for 10, 15, 20 minutes until he can stand still for at least a little bit until he's 'released' to move around. He won't pick up his feet? I'd either muscle them up or have someone help me and keep doing it over and over and over and over until he does. He won't walk in a straight line because he wants to dance? We'll back up until he decides it's not worth the effort. 

If I wanted him to graze, I'd stand there with him, on a lead rope. If I wanted him to exercise, I'd work him myself, on a line or under saddle. I'd set up mental challenges for him like ground poles and navigating a small maze on the ground and under saddle. I'd start doing target training and teach him how to point to objects when I ask him to find something for me. Horses can distinguish colors and shapes, so giving them puzzles is obviously good for them and their mental health. If they were meant to be dumb and lazy they wouldn't be able to accomplish that much.

I see no reason to put a horse down when he's otherwise stellar, just because someone is failing to control him properly and giving him so much freedom that he's gone half crazy on it. That might sound harsh, but I really do believe that you and the trainers/vets who would suggest something like that are failing him, unless you have tried everything I just said and didn't tell us about it.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Speed Racer said:


> Frankly, this goes _way_ beyond disrespect and right into plain aggression. I wouldn't have a horse on the property who deliberately came after me.


I have to agree.


We have use the vise breaker for chronic cribbers and pasture agressive horses. But agressive towards other horses, not humans.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

OTTB said:


> I use e-collars with my dogs. It's inhumane and abusive to start shocking a dog for doing the wrong thing when you never told them what the right thing was to begin with. My terrier wants to kill the squirrel, but knows what a recall is and knows she should hurry and park her butt at my feet when I tell her to. She gets a correction the second she decides to test and see if she can ignore the recall. Why? Because she knows what's expected of her.
> 
> If your horse is stressed and dominant/dangerous in the field, and no amount of correction has fixed the problem while he's loose, do not go to a shock collar until you are 100% positive that he understands what the correct choice should be.
> 
> ...


 
as for the collar thats exactly how i would use it. in only a situation where he knows right from wrong based on training. otherwise its useless. 

i can't keep him cooped up because then he becomes to hot to handle and needs to be released to run around.

i have tried alot of what you mentioned: skipping feeding, tying up and hand walking him for grazing. but from being cooped up he gets very hot and needs to lose energy and therefore has to be let loss. its catching him in a safe manner. even in the round pen if you go to catch him he will charge. once the lead is disconnected something switches in his brain. idk but there has to be a way to get this solved . i have even tried a grazing muzzle to keep him from grazing when i let him loose after confinement and it made things even worse.

again only experimenting different ideas as i am using my last behavior issue trainer before i have to call it quits :?


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

mls said:


> I have to agree.
> 
> 
> We have use the vise breaker for chronic cribbers and pasture agressive horses. But agressive towards other horses, not humans.


well i was told by some people it quickly asserted the need amount of force to get a situation under control after refusal to listen to training from a distance a 2 legged person cant cover.

he knows not to charge me i have taught him this before but that was years ago. now i face the problem of not being close enough to assert any authority over him from the distance i am at when he starts to show signs of aggression.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Shotgun ?


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i have one joe and i am prepared to use it after i have tried everything :/ just trying to see if there is anything else i can try before going that route

joking folks about shooting him i will have the vet there


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

When does he go to the new trainer? Good luck I hope they can do something with him.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

he goes the 8 of jan...after the holidays


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## HUSAngel (Apr 18, 2010)

I'd say contact the person who your vet suggested. If she won't do it, put him down. What if somebody (a child?) went in his pen and he went after them? There are so many horses out there, no need to keep a dangerous one around. Not to mention you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who would want to "buy" a nasty one. He's got something going on, whether mental or physical, that is making him that way. Just curious, what's he like once you catch him? Does he settle down? Is he broke?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

kait18 said:


> joking folks about shooting him i will have the vet there


A well placed bullet is considered just as, if not more, humane than the euthanasia chemicals. 

HUS, kait says he's fine ONCE he's caught, but that his aggression to being caught has escalated. Something definitely wrong with him, regardless of the why.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

HUSAngel said:


> I'd say contact the person who your vet suggested. If she won't do it, put him down. What if somebody (a child?) went in his pen and he went after them? There are so many horses out there, no need to keep a dangerous one around. Not to mention you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who would want to "buy" a nasty one. He's got something going on, whether mental or physical, that is making him that way. Just curious, what's he like once you catch him? Does he settle down? Is he broke?


i am going to try one more behavioral certifed trainer and if he can't fix it or control the behavior he will last resort try the collar. he has used it before but not for aggressive horses. so i am hoping it doesn't resort to that. 

and yes ONCE(keyword) he is caught he is dead broke. best trail horse i have ever seen. i can trust my 3 yo nephew on him by himself even though i have never done it unsupervised and was always attached to a lead. he knows what is expected of him and does it very well. i can do anything with him once he is caught. he even lets my 3 yo nephew lead him and doesn't get pushy or anything. its only when he is loose does he get the aggression.

keep in mind folks i dont just throw my nephew out there he is always supervised and the horse has never showed any aggression once caught. Also havent had the 3 yo near him in months actually since august 10 as he has gotten worse!!!


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> A well placed bullet is considered just as, if not more, humane than the euthanasia chemicals.
> 
> HUS, kait says he's fine ONCE he's caught, but that his aggression to being caught has escalated. Something definitely wrong with him, regardless of the why.


i know that sr just some ppl think it is inhumane and i dont need that talk bein thrown at me to. :/ i have had to do it before and would do it again if it were necessary.

and yes something is wrong with him. just no one knows what


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Meh, don't let the ignorant and uninformed get to you, kait.

A bullet is more traumatic for the _human_. The reason most vets chemically euth now is because it looks 'nicer' to people than putting a bullet in the horse's brain. Horse dies faster by gunshot than chemically, but people find it too barbaric. 

Of course, the gun needs to be handled by someone who knows what they're doing.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Meh, don't let the ignorant and uninformed get to you, kait.
> 
> A bullet is more traumatic for the _human_. The reason most vets chemically euth now is because it looks 'nicer' to people than putting a bullet in the horse's brain. Horse dies faster by gunshot than chemically, but people find it too barbaric.
> 
> Of course, the gun needs to be handled by someone who knows what they're doing.


agreed on all 3 

i have done it to and the vet in my area didn't see a problem with it. she showed me where i had to hit and the first time she was there on standby encase i messed up. i didn't thankfully but i dont think i could do it again. but it sure was a nicer pts i have ever seen. first horse i have seen that didn't flip or fall in an ugly manner so a bit easier to watch :/


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm really glad to hear you're not one of those slap happy 'trainers' that will just strap an e-collar on an animal and let them figure it out for themselves. That is the exact reason why many people think they're inhumane regardless of how you use them.

He can't get hot if you keep him tired, can he? If you're unable to meet his exercise needs by working him on the ground and in the saddle and keep him tired, I'm not really sure what you expect from him?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Kait just wanted to say that I really don't have any advise for you, it sounds like you have tried everything that you can try. At first I was against you using the shock collar, but since reading everything what harm could it really do at this point. 

I am hoping that the new trainer has some success with him.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kait18 said:


> he knows not to charge me i have taught him this before but that was years ago. now i face the problem of not being close enough to assert any authority over him from the distance i am at when he starts to show signs of aggression.


So what happened? If you taught him before, why did the behavior return?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I think she said he went to another owner for a while and she saw him for sale again and bought him back.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

OTTB said:


> I'm really glad to hear you're not one of those slap happy 'trainers' that will just strap an e-collar on an animal and let them figure it out for themselves. That is the exact reason why many people think they're inhumane regardless of how you use them.
> 
> He can't get hot if you keep him tired, can he? If you're unable to meet his exercise needs by working him on the ground and in the saddle and keep him tired, I'm not really sure what you expect from him?


nope i have seen them used wrong to many times. it get nothing out of them if the animal doesnt understand in the first place. 

and with my current job i dont get out there until dark and i dont trust working with him more than i already do in the dark so i cant blame him for being hot at all. thats why i let him have the pasture time so he can exert most of his excess energy.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Kait just wanted to say that I really don't have any advise for you, it sounds like you have tried everything that you can try. At first I was against you using the shock collar, but since reading everything what harm could it really do at this point.
> 
> I am hoping that the new trainer has some success with him.


i am just trying to find other options. this wouldonlybe last last resort. trust me i am trying everything i can even if its outside my budget :/


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

mls said:


> So what happened? If you taught him before, why did the behavior return?


when he first showed signs of the aggression when he was gaining weight i immediately was correcting it. and had him a sweet gelding for about 8 months before i sold him. but he was not a horse you could lovey doovey and spoil but he was a great hard working horse for a beginner if they didnt give him treats. and i told them that. my trainer at the time thought he would be a great horse for her friend. so i sold him to her. this was only after about 1 1/2 years of owning him.
3 years later i randomly went to an auction and was just looking around and heard a very familiar nicker. (it was almost like a scene from black beauty) and to my left was denny. a very overweight horse who was impatient and very bossy. he was 11 at this time. he is now 15 so 3 years i have had him and he has improved in some ways but worse in other.

i bought him immediately even though i was not looking for another horse. when i got him home omg was i taken back by this guy. he had lost almost all his ground manners but was still a dream in the saddle. 
training started immediately and me forcing more pressure on him made him mad so i started sending him to trainers and getting trainers to come to me and it has not helped :/


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

So the trainers have put him in a stall and worked his *** off and it hasn't done anything? What exactly are you paying these people to do? Not a snarky question, just curious.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i had 3 trainers try to get him in the stall at my place and 3 off my property at there farms. the first was before i sold him when he was getting healthier. he just paniced(sp) in there and when he calmed down they took him out. and said if he doesn't need to be in there then why put him in. at this time there was no field aggression. so no need to keep him in there if there was no need.

now when field aggression has been problematic..since i got him back
i had the trainer at the time try to get him in. she got him in alright but he freaked so bad he had her cornered and was going to get at her if i hadn't jumped in and grabbed the lead that was flying around and directed his attention else where. then after that the trainer nicely resigned as i cant blame her. 
so then afew trainers later we tried again about january of this year. and almost the same thing happened when the trainer lead him in. and this horse is to smart for his own good and human good sometimes. he walked in no hestiation and that should have been our sign to not do it. but we thought it was good so we were praising him for quietly walking in. he (trainer, new about past experience) and he continued to get denny into the stall as soon as he had denny in there he did a panic attack again but this time actually broke the guys arm from rearing. but this guy walked out on his own i should say ran out and closed the door behind him and let denny work it out him self. he was in there for 2 hours continueally thrashing. we left him in there we went to call an ambulance as we were unsure if it was just his arm broken as he had blood coming from his face so i think he also got hit in the head but he never admitted to it. after about 2hrs he stopped thrashing for 10 minutes and the trainer told me to pull him out. and i put him in the small paddock. 
after that the trainer also resigned and i have not tried to do it since.

for the trainers i have sent him too...they had similiar experiences with him in the stall as well. and had no luck 2 out of the 3 trainers sent him back with full refund. :? these last 3 tries were between the last 2 attempts stated above
if i should try it again please give me ideas on how to approach it


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Or better yet OTTB, how about_ you_ take him, since you appear to believe that kait isn't doing everything she can to reform this animal? 

You keep saying 'yeah, but', and kait explains what she's done and that it hasn't worked. Some horses simply are NOT fixable. He sounds like one of those, and kait has done a heck of a lot more than many people would to try and make things better.

So, if you think you're more capable and have the time, money, and motivation, why don't you volunteer to take him off her hands? I'm not being snarky, I'm deadly serious.


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

Did you wear him out until he was dripping sweat and his head was hanging in a relaxed position before putting him in a stall? Without being there to see what the trainers actually did, it sounds as if they had no physical control over him before even stepping foot into the stall. Did they use a twitch? A stud chain? Did they point his head at the stall door, get him in and immediately drag his head around and force his butt to turn sharp so that they were quickly out of the door? Has he ever been hobbled so that his range of motion is restricted?

I'm seeing you tell us what they've done... but the critical part - the exercise - is missing. Is anyone at all working this horse until he's drooping tired and able to relax and be calm?


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Or better yet OTTB, how about_ you_ take him, since you appear to believe that kait isn't doing everything she can to reform this animal?
> 
> You keep saying 'yeah, but', and kait explains what she's done and that it hasn't worked. Some horses simply are NOT fixable. He sounds like one of those, and kait has done a heck of a lot more than many people would to try and make things better.
> 
> So, if you think you're more capable and have the time, money, and motivation, why don't you volunteer to take him off her hands? I'm not being snarky, I'm deadly serious.



Saying you're not being snarky doesn't mean it's not true - it's just what you think. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

If the OP was interested in giving her horse away she'd be contacting rescue ranches. She's not. She wants to sell him, fix him, or have him put down. That's up to her.
There was some facebook drama at my own barn that caused one of the local ranches to reach out and offer to take a 10 year old stallion that near killed three horses and two people after breaking out of his stall. Obviously these rescue ranches are able to take on tough cases, if they were jumping at the chance to take him. I find it hard to believe that the OP's only option is to kill the animal if she's unable to find a trainer that can help her get him under control, but it's not MY horse, and all I can do is keep asking if he's getting worked hard before someone works with him. I still haven't really gotten a response besides that she works a lot and it's dark.

edited to add that you can buy outdoor lighting fixtures to light up a round pen for under $200 so that you can safely work a horse, if you're uncomfortable with doing it with just a few strands of Christmas lights (I think that's what the OP said). I bought a rechargable LED light that will blind you and light up a 10x10 stall for $20 at Walmart AND it has magnets so you can attach it to railing or paneling. 

As far as taking on the horse, it wouldn't be fair to the two I already have. I don't see the point in owning more when it would mean I don't have the time to give them the training and exercise they need, individually.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

OTTB, you are so far off the mark on this case, it is hard to figure out where you are coming from. I am all for pointing things out to naive or the newer owners who ask questions - however this is so clearly not the case here. 

This owner is clearly extremely dedicated to trying to do what she can for this horse, and this response was simply uncalled for... 




OTTB said:


> He can't get hot if you keep him tired, can he? If you're unable to meet his exercise needs by working him on the ground and in the saddle and keep him tired, I'm not really sure what you expect from him?



Let me explain your theory a little, as I used to own a very dangerous mare. 
I lunged and worked the socks off her before I rode to make her calmer as otherwise she would be a bucking and rearing bronco horse. That would have been fine if I only planned to ride her for about 2 weeks, but what happened was the mare became fitter and fitter and I ended up working her for longer and longer before I get on her as it took longer to exhaust her. 
As your name would imply you have some experience with OTTB's, you should probably also realize the potential fitness level of some horses - my crazy mare was also off the track - and it got to the point where I could work her really really hard and she was not tired after 4 hours of intensive working. 

I suppose that this would not be enough and we should all give up our means of paying for the animals so we can work them 24/7?


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

It's alright to disagree. That's what forums are for. However, I'm well aware of how fit an animal will get when exercised thoroughly. I own a dog that would make your head explode just by looking at him. At 12 weeks old we took him on a 14 mile hike and he was still running circles around us at the end. 

Exercise and diet is the key to all things furry. Diet can affect mental health in any mammal. MENTAL exercise is often overlooked. Bored animals create their own mental issues, humans too. They have too much time to think, and thinking isn't always a good thing. If you'd like to tell me I'm wrong, then that's fine. If you'd like to tell me I'm way off base, that's fine, too. I don't think I am, and I stand by my opinion that a horse that's crazy in the field needs to have his freedom taken away until he earns it. Until someone actually does that, then you will NEVER know if the horse is 'unfixable', will you? The easy solution has already been talked about. Selling, giving away, putting him down. It's not easy to pay for a trainer, and it's not easy to work them every single day and dedicate yourself to a living being that you took responsibility for in the first place.

Your ridiculous statement about giving up your job to take care of your animals 24/7 is said out of desperation, but I really don't know why. I don't see anyone saying anything about not working. The OP herself said she works a lot. Many people have to. Many people have family, small children. I personally know a few women who have multiple young children, a full time job, and more dogs, cats, and horses than I do and I don't even have half that responsibility. Somehow they manage to make it all work. Many people also chose to not have pets because they're unable to meet their needs because of lifestyles that they have to live in order to make it through life. I'm not going to tell people if they're 'worthy' of having pets or not, but it's possible to bite off more than you can chew without realizing it too late.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

OTTB said:


> Your ridiculous statement about giving up your job to take care of your animals 24/7 is said out of desperation,


Not at all - it was said from real life experience (my own) of getting to a point where I had to work my horse HARD for 4+ hours a day because I was no longer exhausting her. I said that because for most people, it's not possible to do more that that - and it demonstrates that your idea does not work.


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## Jokerrosie (Dec 15, 2011)

I don't think a shock collar would be useful in this situation, the horse does not have respect for you. Are you familiar with Pat Parellis seven games? they would help you to gain respect from your horse,and confidence in yourself. Carry a whip, and do not allow him to run you off when he charges. You are right, this is dangerous behavor that needs correcting. I am glad to hear you are selling him...he is not a good match with a timid person. Take care and happy trails


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

OTTB said:


> It's alright to disagree. That's what forums are for. However, I'm well aware of how fit an animal will get when exercised thoroughly. I own a dog that would make your head explode just by looking at him. At 12 weeks old we took him on a 14 mile hike and he was still running circles around us at the end.
> 
> Exercise and diet is the key to all things furry. Diet can affect mental health in any mammal. MENTAL exercise is often overlooked. Bored animals create their own mental issues, humans too. They have too much time to think, and thinking isn't always a good thing. If you'd like to tell me I'm wrong, then that's fine. If you'd like to tell me I'm way off base, that's fine, too. I don't think I am, and I stand by my opinion that a horse that's crazy in the field needs to have his freedom taken away until he earns it. Until someone actually does that, then you will NEVER know if the horse is 'unfixable', will you? The easy solution has already been talked about. Selling, giving away, putting him down. It's not easy to pay for a trainer, and it's not easy to work them every single day and dedicate yourself to a living being that you took responsibility for in the first place.
> 
> Your ridiculous statement about giving up your job to take care of your animals 24/7 is said out of desperation, but I really don't know why. I don't see anyone saying anything about not working. The OP herself said she works a lot. Many people have to. Many people have family, small children. I personally know a few women who have multiple young children, a full time job, and more dogs, cats, and horses than I do and I don't even have half that responsibility. Somehow they manage to make it all work. Many people also chose to not have pets because they're unable to meet their needs because of lifestyles that they have to live in order to make it through life. I'm not going to tell people if they're 'worthy' of having pets or not, but it's possible to bite off more than you can chew without realizing it too late.



You took a 12 WEEK old puppy out for a 14MILE hike? I'm sorry, that is just irresponsible, energy or not. I sure hope your dog doesn't have bone deformities or arthritis it days to come.

A horse doesn't understand 'Right you've been a BAD boy, so you're going to stay in your stable until you behave'... what on earth is that going to achieve? I'm going to say it, you are WAY off the mark here. 

Kait18 has explained this horse turned up on her land, in my eyes she's given it more chances than I would have done.

I spoke to my trainer about this situation last night, her answer? Use it. She said no horse is born mean, but sometimes things happen and they snap. There is no reason for it, but you need to learn to move quick. She said if you have tried everything else, PTS is the last option, why not give it a go- could you live with yourself if you put a healthy horse down without trying it, thinking it may have worked?

As for 'Easy' solution- I cringe at that, putting a horse to sleep is not an EASY option. If you read through the posts you will CLEARLY see that kait18 has tried all she can, sent him away. Sometimes a horse and person don't mix- but this is a horse that has a real bad mean streak and is doing it to EVERYONE.

Now, as far as I was last aware, spending 24/7 with your horses was never a bad thing, or any animal, plenty of people do it. Plenty of people work and have animals, however someone over the internet has no right to say something like that to another person, insinuating they are unworthy to have animals because they can't work and have pets? Please, tell me if I'm wrong, but if you had said that to my face you'd have earnt a sock in the mouth.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Jokerrosie said:


> I don't think a shock collar would be useful in this situation, the horse does not have respect for you. Are you familiar with Pat Parellis seven games? they would help you to gain respect from your horse,and confidence in yourself. Carry a whip, and do not allow him to run you off when he charges. You are right, this is dangerous behavor that needs correcting. I am glad to hear you are selling him...he is not a good match with a timid person. Take care and happy trails


Carry a whip?I thought it was a carrot stick 

The OP has tried a whip, and I think a hockey stick? This only works when a horse has RESPECT for a whip. No respect, no chance. He's figured out it may hurt a couple of times, but going for someone is so much better.
I wouldn't personally describe kait18 as a timid person at all... she's done more for it than I would have done.


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## Makoda (Jan 17, 2011)

Could a shock collar help? Maybe, but probably not and besides there are too many good horses out there that could use your time and money to become great horses. 

This one needs to be shot. With the time and money it will take to get this one to be a descent horse its not worth it. Too many rescues that are diamonds in the rough just hoping for someone like you to help them.

Just mine opinion though, I have worked with 2 horses like this. One came around for me one didn't, but neither could be trusted.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

OTTB said:


> Did you wear him out until he was dripping sweat and his head was hanging in a relaxed position before putting him in a stall? Without being there to see what the trainers actually did, it sounds as if they had no physical control over him before even stepping foot into the stall. Did they use a twitch? A stud chain? Did they point his head at the stall door, get him in and immediately drag his head around and force his butt to turn sharp so that they were quickly out of the door? Has he ever been hobbled so that his range of motion is restricted?
> 
> I'm seeing you tell us what they've done... but the critical part - the exercise - is missing. Is anyone at all working this horse until he's drooping tired and able to relax and be calm?


we have made him dripping sweat and have used a twitch and a stud chain. the twitch did nothing but upset him he started rearing once we asked for forward motion. 
the dripping sweat has been done as well mutlitple times but after he gets to that state he goes into a blank mode where all he thinks he can do is fight. so we have stopped working him that hard bc we want him to still be thinking. the only time he gets worked hard now for dripping sweat is when we ride him and then he has the best attitude. we have even tried bringing him in after a hard ride and he still freaked inside the stall.
as for stud chain every trainer and myself have used one on him. its an everyday thing i use on all the horses for extra precaution as they are larger animals and i have lots of things i need to worry about when they are out on lead. most importantly are my family especially the younger ones. 
it doesn't matter what we have on him or how much he works before going into the stall he will freak. he handles trailers alittle better but he just doesn't like small spaces. the only thing me and the trainers can figure why he likes a trailer better is bc it leads to a fun ride. 
we have faced him to the stall, backed him in, and get the same result. and yes all the trainers tried to quickly turn him but he freaked before they could get completely around.
he was hobble trained before i sold him and we did try to use it in one case at a trainers place and he almost flipped himself. 
he can handle a stall outdoors with no roof but cannot handle one indoors. we have even tried this!!!

any other ideas


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

OTTB said:


> Saying you're not being snarky doesn't mean it's not true - it's just what you think. We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.
> 
> If the OP was interested in giving her horse away she'd be contacting rescue ranches. She's not. She wants to sell him, fix him, or have him put down. That's up to her.
> There was some facebook drama at my own barn that caused one of the local ranches to reach out and offer to take a 10 year old stallion that near killed three horses and two people after breaking out of his stall. Obviously these rescue ranches are able to take on tough cases, if they were jumping at the chance to take him. I find it hard to believe that the OP's only option is to kill the animal if she's unable to find a trainer that can help her get him under control, but it's not MY horse, and all I can do is keep asking if he's getting worked hard before someone works with him. I still haven't really gotten a response besides that she works a lot and it's dark.
> ...


 
i have contacted ranches i don't live out west so i can't just go down a street in a county and pick them. i have tried everything and every rescue and rescue trainer in my area and up to 3 states away, they dont want this horse they would rather him be pts. i am just trying to find another way if possible. if you know a rescue or someone who wants to try please give me there number i would gladly call them.

its not the lighting and the dark that really bothers me. its working with him alon in the dark when he sees better than me. if something were to happen like me miss a sign then i am screwed and no one would know until the next morning.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

OTTB said:


> It's alright to disagree. That's what forums are for. However, I'm well aware of how fit an animal will get when exercised thoroughly. I own a dog that would make your head explode just by looking at him. At 12 weeks old we took him on a 14 mile hike and he was still running circles around us at the end.
> 
> Exercise and diet is the key to all things furry. Diet can affect mental health in any mammal. MENTAL exercise is often overlooked. Bored animals create their own mental issues, humans too. They have too much time to think, and thinking isn't always a good thing. If you'd like to tell me I'm wrong, then that's fine. If you'd like to tell me I'm way off base, that's fine, too. I don't think I am, and I stand by my opinion that a horse that's crazy in the field needs to have his freedom taken away until he earns it. Until someone actually does that, then you will NEVER know if the horse is 'unfixable', will you? The easy solution has already been talked about. Selling, giving away, putting him down. It's not easy to pay for a trainer, and it's not easy to work them every single day and dedicate yourself to a living being that you took responsibility for in the first place.
> 
> Your ridiculous statement about giving up your job to take care of your animals 24/7 is said out of desperation, but I really don't know why. I don't see anyone saying anything about not working. The OP herself said she works a lot. Many people have to. Many people have family, small children. I personally know a few women who have multiple young children, a full time job, and more dogs, cats, and horses than I do and I don't even have half that responsibility. Somehow they manage to make it all work. Many people also chose to not have pets because they're unable to meet their needs because of lifestyles that they have to live in order to make it through life. I'm not going to tell people if they're 'worthy' of having pets or not, but it's possible to bite off more than you can chew without realizing it too late.


i like how you point out exercise is key. i make sure they are exercised as much as i possibly can given my work schedule to keep them. they might not be the fittest but they can handle themselves for a full day ride with miniumal sweating on the trail in every gait being used throughout the day. 
and if he is bored how should i keep him entertained?? i have a huge blow up ball for him to play with a little jolly ball, these huge horse toys with treats in it that he has to figure out how to get out. he gets 3 hours not back to back playing with my dogs. if he is bored what else should i do he plays with the other horses and is first to make the horses play with him. 

as for diet i guess you missed when i said we have been working with a nutrition specialist and have been trying different feeds so far no luck with that. and have tried over 25 different calming supplements and herbs no change in behavior. 
anything i should try also give me pointers here since i havent tried hard enough..

as for not being worthy of pets as you seem to think i am not giving enough time to him... i have 4 horses one is pasture ornament and retired. i have 3 active gelding, 1 dog and 8 cats, and currently retraining another 5 dogs for the animals shelter who they claim to be dangerous.

every animal has mental workouts, training sessions, as per what there level requires i am up everyday at 330am and don't go to sleep until 1230am if i am lucky. i am lucky if on weekends i can catch a nap and get a full 8 hours of sleep. thankfully i have an awesome boss who will let me take a quick 30 minute nap in the afternoon at work. and then my work day consists of being there 8am to 7pm and with all this going on i have to help my divorced sister with her 8 kids and help them with school work and make sure they do there chores which are mostly helping me with the animals while she works 15 hour days... so please... if i am not trying my hardest let me know.

do i regret helping any of them no do i know when it is time to call it quits and let them animal enjoy afterlife yes. but i dont think i have more than i can chew or bite bc i enjoy doing it. i love working with them. each animal i have every owned or knew had its own personality and taught me something new and when i am get teach them something they know not to disrespect me and ignore what i am asking.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Makoda said:


> Could a shock collar help? Maybe, but probably not and besides there are too many good horses out there that could use your time and money to become great horses.
> 
> This one needs to be shot. With the time and money it will take to get this one to be a descent horse its not worth it. Too many rescues that are diamonds in the rough just hoping for someone like you to help them.
> 
> Just mine opinion though, I have worked with 2 horses like this. One came around for me one didn't, but neither could be trusted.


i know just feel like it is my fault he got this way. i should never have sold him. he could have been a different horse. 

i already just rescued a horse from auction last month who is a diamond in the rough. i just want to make sure i try everything. do i think this will work highly unlikely but worth a shot maybe :? again idk hence why i asked everyones opinion


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kait18 said:


> i know just feel like it is my fault he got this way. i should never have sold him. he could have been a different horse.
> 
> i already just rescued a horse from auction last month who is a diamond in the rough. i just want to make sure i try everything. do i think this will work highly unlikely but worth a shot maybe :? again idk hence why i asked everyones opinion


It's entirely possible there is something physically wrong with him. I've known two horses that had brain tumors. Sadly both had to be destroyed to find out for sure.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

mls - i think it has to do with his brain as well. the have done mri scans i think it was on it and found nothing last month. he has another appointment monday where they are going to hook wires to his head and run tests on how his brain is functioning. not sure how it works but its worth a try.
when he is pts i will have a full body examine on him to see what and if they find anything. but we are not at that level yet :/


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

kait18 said:


> mls - i think it has to do with his brain as well. the have done mri scans i think it was on it and found nothing last month. he has another appointment monday where they are going to hook wires to his head and run tests on how his brain is functioning. not sure how it works but its worth a try.
> when he is pts i will have a full body examine on him to see what and if they find anything. but we are not at that level yet :/


Just know there are plenty of good horses out there. It's not worth your life.

(Both of the horses I mentioned put people in the hospital via ambulance)


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i will remember that mls thanks


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Perhaps get your dad armed with the hockey stick and you with the lunge whip (hold on to the lash) go into the field side by side about 10' apart. Don't look at the horse but circle around until you are about 50' behind him. If he hasn't move, approach his rump and make him move by waving an arm. The idea isn't to make him run, just move, even if only a few feet. Keep moving him. If he turns to charge let your dad deliver a hard whack on the horse's neck. This will cause the horse to turn away but step well back as his heels may fly. Keep walking after him until he will look at you with both eyes. If he appears that he will approach in an aggressive manner, both of you wave your "weapons", side to side. He may charge a second time and again you dad must hit him hard. Usually that's all it takes to adjust his attitude. If he will look at you with both eyes and stands quietly, that is the time to leave him be. This is his reward for standing quietly. Keep an eye on him as he may want to follow you which is ok as long as his ears aren't pinned.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i could try that saddlebag we always tried moving him off to make him really work not just a few steps i will ask my dad for help this weekend. it is worth a try 

thanks


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Kait, did you say earlier that he is ok to catch when you have food with you? I think you did, if so, is your pasture secure enough with signs posted that you could just do that for an otherwise good horse and not worry about it?


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Kait, did you say earlier that he is ok to catch when you have food with you? I think you did, if so, is your pasture secure enough with signs posted that you could just do that for an otherwise good horse and not worry about it?


 
yes, very easy with a bucket of treats or grain. 

the pasture is secure wooden fencing with a high strand of electric to keep from jumping and a lower wire to keep animals and children from crawling in.

i guess i found my loop hole to his behavior :?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Then why worry about it? 
Obviously it's not ideal behavior and that which you would chose to fix if you could, and maybe you can still find someone who will. But as long as you have signs posted, no one should be in their pasture anyway and he is an otherwise good horse. (I am assuming that you don't board him and he is on private property.)


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I think given the circumstance, the problem is that you aren't giving enough "meaning" behind your body language for him to understand that when you say "back off" you MEAN back off NOW. An E-collar may work for a while, but, then again, it could just cause him to become more aggressive, since it is still not really reinforcing YOU as the leader in the relationship...that is what he needs to learn, here.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I wonder if he would see you in a different light if you went out there and chased HIM around the paddock? If I was going to put that little idea to the test I wouldn't use a whip or stick, I would get out there with a super soaker. I know I sound like a nut but sometimes approaching things from a different angle can help.


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## Makoda (Jan 17, 2011)

kait18 said:


> i know just feel like it is my fault he got this way. i should never have sold him. he could have been a different horse.
> 
> i already just rescued a horse from auction last month who is a diamond in the rough. i just want to make sure i try everything. do i think this will work highly unlikely but worth a shot maybe :? again idk hence why i asked everyones opinion


Just because I am concerned for your well being and anybody else dealing with this horse I would really suggest putting him down. If you make the wrong move or drop your gaurd for a second that could be it for you. I have had my own experience with this dropped my gaurd for a second with a kicker, because I thought the horse was getting better. Two days later my wife reminded me what I was doing. Got kicked in the head, broken jaw, dislocated shoulder and many visits to the chiropractor finally got me going again but it was definantly a close call. Besides that my little girls were very nervous for me and that in itself put it all in perspective for me.

You say you feel like he could have been better had you not sold him. Well at that time you made the best decision with the information you had, I'm sure. So don't blame yourself for the horses actions. Every horse I work with I feel I could have done something better looking back, but thats just life were always learning. Regardless horses are too big and strong to be messing with dangerous ones.

I love working with horses and am always looking for the next challenge, but sometimes its not worth the risk versus the reward.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Then why worry about it?
> Obviously it's not ideal behavior and that which you would chose to fix if you could, and maybe you can still find someone who will. But as long as you have signs posted, no one should be in their pasture anyway and he is an otherwise good horse. (I am assuming that you don't board him and he is on private property.)


 
oh yes private property for sure 

i will have to discuss that with my folks. they are really concerned about it but as long as you have bucket of grain or treats in there he will keep his distance and let you approach him no problems.

thanks alex


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

mom2pride said:


> I think given the circumstance, the problem is that you aren't giving enough "meaning" behind your body language for him to understand that when you say "back off" you MEAN back off NOW. An E-collar may work for a while, but, then again, it could just cause him to become more aggressive, since it is still not really reinforcing YOU as the leader in the relationship...that is what he needs to learn, here.


even if i am a timid handler why were the trainers not able to reinforce any leadership when they had him for months at a time.??

i dont think the problem is just me being timid, if multiple people have tried working with him and get the same response.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Makoda said:


> Just because I am concerned for your well being and anybody else dealing with this horse I would really suggest putting him down. If you make the wrong move or drop your gaurd for a second that could be it for you. I have had my own experience with this dropped my gaurd for a second with a kicker, because I thought the horse was getting better. Two days later my wife reminded me what I was doing. Got kicked in the head, broken jaw, dislocated shoulder and many visits to the chiropractor finally got me going again but it was definantly a close call. Besides that my little girls were very nervous for me and that in itself put it all in perspective for me.
> 
> You say you feel like he could have been better had you not sold him. Well at that time you made the best decision with the information you had, I'm sure. So don't blame yourself for the horses actions. Every horse I work with I feel I could have done something better looking back, but thats just life were always learning. Regardless horses are too big and strong to be messing with dangerous ones.
> 
> I love working with horses and am always looking for the next challenge, but sometimes its not worth the risk versus the reward.


 
oh my goodness i am glad to hear you are ok. i know i wont be able to let my guard down when i have to enter the field. i have to discuss it with my folks since he is on there property. 

if this next trainer doesnt work i still think he will have to be pts even if the grain in bucket is a loop hole. i dont think my parents will take much more of the aggression as my mom wants to start getting back into it and can't catch any of the horses with him around ...it just sucks knowing things could have been different :/


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Personally I think his problems are all being reinforced with bad behaviour as you try to fix him by going out in the field to catch him without grain. He comes fine with grain so I dont understand why you would keep pushing his buttons by going out without grain to catch him. In a way you have (or maybe the last owner too)somewhat reinforced his bad behavior by asking for it every time you go out there without grain to bring him in.
I dont believe you should have to take grain out to catch any horse but if you have a problem like you do it may be the only way to keep him calm and you safe. Attempts to go out there without grain have failed misserably so it seems to me you are reinforcing the bad behavior.
It is also so clear you dont have the time (your life seems to be stretched to the limit and for good reason) that is required to get him back on the right track. 
While you have had him to more than one trainer I think I would have to agree with OTTB that he needs to be handled and allowed to do nothing without his handlers ok. That again requires a great deal of time and you are so short on time I do feel sorry for you. Perhaps buying him back was not such a great idea when you do not have the time. 
I do wish you all the best and hope that the trainer in January is successful with him and you can get him sold or pts, whatever is needed.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Annnie31 said:


> Personally I think his problems are all being reinforced with bad behaviour as you try to fix him by going out in the field to catch him without grain. He comes fine with grain so I dont understand why you would keep pushing his buttons by going out without grain to catch him. In a way you have (or maybe the last owner too)somewhat reinforced his bad behavior by asking for it every time you go out there without grain to bring him in.
> I dont believe you should have to take grain out to catch any horse but if you have a problem like you do it may be the only way to keep him calm and you safe. Attempts to go out there without grain have failed misserably so it seems to me you are reinforcing the bad behavior.
> It is also so clear you dont have the time (your life seems to be stretched to the limit and for good reason) that is required to get him back on the right track.
> While you have had him to more than one trainer I think I would have to agree with OTTB that he needs to be handled and allowed to do nothing without his handlers ok. That again requires a great deal of time and you are so short on time I do feel sorry for you. Perhaps buying him back was not such a great idea when you do not have the time.
> I do wish you all the best and hope that the trainer in January is successful with him and you can get him sold or pts, whatever is needed.


so everyone understands my schedule and how much he is worked.
over the course of 3 years i have had him on my property for maybe a total of 6 months if that.
wihin the first week of buying him from auction i had him sent to a trainer. was there for a about 4 1/2 months. behavior trainer 1 just failed. brought my horse back with his arm in a sling and told me he would make for some good dog food.
had him on the property maybe 2 weeks before i had a behavioral trainer come to me and work with him at my place. after a month he said let me try him at my place and give it a go. was there for 4 days was told my horse almost killed him in a stall. also gave me a refund. behavioral trainer 2 just failed
had him again until nov. (about 8 months in now)had another behavioral trainer take him to his property for training and had him for a year. was told he tried everything and didn't think there was hope. trainer 3 just failed
trainer 4 lasted 1 week. worked on stalling and isolating and first day brought him to stall got cornered and i luckily was able to get denny out before he step on the female trainer. so this down for the count. 
within 2 1/2 weeks trainer 5 lasted 2 months. he had denny in the stall but couldnt get out fast enough. denny got him in the head and broke his arm.
he gave me a refund and said goodluck.
trainer 5 lasted 4 months. admitted couldn't get anywhere with him but he was such a good boy once caught it was ashame.
trainer 6 had him 5 1/2 months. brought him back with apologies he couldn't help. he had tried everything even admitted some pretty cruel techinques and it didnt help. since this trainer he ignores the lunge whip completely.
trainer 7 didnt even get to work on the aggression bc he wanted to get the lunge whip to be an aid and not a beating weapon. but denny was not having it and ran the guy out of my field and bit him in **** he hoped thru the fence. lasted maybe 2 days and that was 3 months ago
trainer 8 who i am currently talking to who is my last resort and out of state. i have spent over 80k in trainers, nutritional specialists, and supplements. so as you see i know i cant fix it on my own and have hired help. therefore am spending as much as needed to try and fix the problem with behavioral trainers who have had no luck either. and i only bring out grain or treats when i need to catch him fast for the vet. otherwise i go in there catch my mare lead her to denny and slide a lead around his neck from the other side of her and he doesn't freak or get nasty. once i have the lead on his neck bam ears forward ok lets go. this process is about 30 mintues or so.

so telling me i dont have time to help him really is false accustation as i have not had him all that much since i have been trying to use professionals to fix the problem. so now you know its not really i time restraint. 

and also before i sold him he didnt need anything to catch him. he would walk right over to you to be caught even for a child. he was not supposed to get treats because he used to get nippy and bossy. therefore told them no treats just a pat on the neck and he will be happy. obvisouly did not listen to that advice as now i am havig to deal with the problems.


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Time to cut your loss. Actually I wasnt criticizing you for not having the time. You said in a previous post you have no time because of family obligations and work etc. 
$80,000 on a horse that is trying to attack you??? Whats wrong with that picture?


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

wow you certainly have put in the effort. I would have probably given up after trainer 3 or 4. Good luck with this one.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Annnie31 said:


> Time to cut your loss. Actually I wasnt criticizing you for not having the time. You said in a previous post you have no time because of family obligations and work etc.
> $80,000 on a horse that is trying to attack you??? Whats wrong with that picture?


i know you werent i just wanted to get the schedule thing out of the way as i think ottb is still wondering even though she/he hasnt posted again

80k bc i feel horrible he got this way and know his potential. hence another reason why my folks are not happy with him either


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Hunter65 said:


> wow you certainly have put in the effort. I would have probably given up after trainer 3 or 4. Good luck with this one.


haha thanks hunter  and thanks annie


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Well it seems to me a horse that is 15 years old, spoiled by previous owners or not, agressive to catch, and been through more trainers than world class show horses, having spent $20,000 to try to fix would have been too much money in my book. He is getting too old to fix. I dont know where $80,000 comes into play since many trainers have refunded your money but it is excessive in my opinion...even ridiculous. Not trying to be harsh...I just find this situation crazy!!!


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Annnie31 said:


> Well it seems to me a horse that is 15 years old, spoiled by previous owners or not, agressive to catch, and been through more trainers than world class show horses, having spent $20,000 to try to fix would have been too much money in my book. He is getting too old to fix. I dont know where $80,000 comes into play since many trainers have refunded your money but it is excessive in my opinion...even ridiculous. Not trying to be harsh...I just find this situation crazy!!!


its very crazy. this horse means the world to me and would do anythng to try and help him. yes i have probably over done it but i just feel like there is more i can do to try and fix it. 80 is the total amount spent on trainers and some trainers operations. they refunded me so i felt the need to pay something for donations to the healing. 
and not harsh my mom tells me it all the time i am nuts and should just give up. but i just cant yet there is to much potential behind him


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I don't know.. sending him to all those trainers. Did they try to gain his trust or did they just try and teach him that being aggressive isn't okay?


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

You figure our of 7 trainers ONE of them would have had some sort of success.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I don't know.. sending him to all those trainers. Did they try to gain his trust or did they just try and teach him that being aggressive isn't okay?


the ones that lasted a few days did not try to get trust.
the ones who had him for months were doing everything and going slowly starting from scratch with trust and leadership. 

it didn't matter or it seems like it doesn't matter. he will nicker to me or anyone of those trainers from a distance but wont actually want to be with anyone. but once he is caught he is so trusting and will listen to anything asked of him. 

if he has a halter on with a lead around his neck he will follow you like you were holding the lead. you take the lead off his halter and he will walk the other way


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hunter65 said:


> You figure our of 7 trainers ONE of them would have had some sort of success.


Well 7 different trainers doesn't necessarily mean 7 different methods. They could have all been trying the "fix this horse any way possible to get results" instead of going for a softer approach. 

Personally I think this horse needs to be a lawn ornament. To enjoy being a horse and retire on many acres of land.. find a companion forever home for this guy where he doesn't stir up your horses. 

To me it's like he has no respect, no trust, and no hope in humans. I'm not sure why he turns off his aggression once caught, maybe his engaged mind keeps his devious one locked out. Who knows.. but you obviously don't want to euthanize him.. so try finding him a situation where he can just be without people trying to train him or whatnot. He can still be caught for food so he'd be fine for the farrier and vet (for shots) so maybe it's the best option for him.

We can't change or fix every horse.. but it doesn't mean we have to put them down because they're unrideable. If he's fine being out and about and comes for food, then I think being a pasture ornament is the life for him *shrugs*


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Hunter65 said:


> You figure our of 7 trainers ONE of them would have had some sort of success.


thats what i thought so now my mom has put her foot down and said this is his last trainer and then we have to decide if we are going to keep him or pts.

if we keep him we have to set up ground rules and a different management care program for him to make sure only me and instructing trainer are working with him.

i just hope we have some luck with this last trainer


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Well 7 different trainers doesn't necessarily mean 7 different methods. They could have all been trying the "fix this horse any way possible to get results" instead of going for a softer approach.
> 
> Personally I think this horse needs to be a lawn ornament. To enjoy being a horse and retire on many acres of land.. find a companion forever home for this guy where he doesn't stir up your horses.
> 
> ...


i could look into that someone might enjoy that but most folks i have seen with pasture ornaments no offense to anyone seem to be very timid and uncomfortable with horses in some way or another. 

i dont want to pts lol thats for sure.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Well find the right person  Maybe a horse sanctuary or something. You know what to look for and who would best suite this guy.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

very true its worth a try thanks


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

You're welcome


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

The more I hear about this horse and his issue, the more I feel his issues are unfixable...somewhere along the way his mind has been so 'blown' by the human kind, or perhaps he's just not right in the head period.

I would not suggest sending him to a horse sanctuary...most probably wouldn't accept him anyway, since they have to be approachable. And if you send him off to someone as a pasture ornament, you had darn well be sure they understand his issues from top to bottom to ensure they are content having a horse they are just going to have 'looking pretty' in a pasture. 

If he were mine, I would have put him down a long time ago...there are soooo many other horses out there who's minds are much more sound who need rescuing, than to be messing with a horse who will ultimately wind up killing someone someday. Sorry to be blunt...but as someone else already mentioned, you will never be able to turn your back on him, the day you do...


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i would never just give him to any one... he is to dangerous to just be handed off!!!
it is just an option if the right person comes along. as of now i am just waiting until this next trainer and see where it goes from there. if we make even slight progress that will be fine if not most likely he will be pts


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## LikeIke17 (Mar 18, 2011)

I've read this entire thread and I must say I'm surprised that no one has mentioned natural horsemanship. 

Now, I'm not usually an advocate for NH but have you sought out a trainer with that mentality of training? I know someone said something about how you've used 7 trainers and wondered if they were different methods. Purely curious 

I commend you on still trying. You will be someone I won't ever forget. You are a wonderful person to keep trying on this horse. I do however agree on the point that sometimes there is just a point where it's over. The horse just can't recover from whatever happened to him. Have you every tried to trace back to his previous owner? Maybe they can tell you where things started going weird. I'm truly thinking something traumatic or awful happened to him to make him like this. I don't like a horse just becomes bad.


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## Countrylady1071 (May 12, 2010)

I don't think I would give him to ANYONE, knowledgable or not, as a pasture ornament. What if their neighbor has a child or something that wanders into the pasture one day. A horse that dangerous is better off euthanized than a pasture ornament where there's still potential for an accident. I have to say, wow, you have tried so hard for this horse. Hopefully this last trainer will get somewhere with him. Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

LikeIke17 said:


> I've read this entire thread and I must say I'm surprised that no one has mentioned natural horsemanship.
> 
> Now, I'm not usually an advocate for NH but have you sought out a trainer with that mentality of training? I know someone said something about how you've used 7 trainers and wondered if they were different methods. Purely curious
> 
> I commend you on still trying. You will be someone I won't ever forget. You are a wonderful person to keep trying on this horse. I do however agree on the point that sometimes there is just a point where it's over. The horse just can't recover from whatever happened to him. Have you every tried to trace back to his previous owner? Maybe they can tell you where things started going weird. I'm truly thinking something traumatic or awful happened to him to make him like this. I don't like a horse just becomes bad.


 i tried afew different methods and one of them was a parelli trainer ... no luck

i dont think he just becomes bad either. something had to happen and i am not sure if he was sold after the girl i sold him to but he was at the same barn she had him before the auction got him. the bo had said the owner stopped paying the board and that he was not getting used regualrly and she couldnt afford his upkeep and was brought to the auction. when i asked if she noticed a change in his behavior she didnt answer and changed the subject... so i think there was something just dont know what.
i do think most of it came from spoiling but then i think when she left him something else could have happened sadly


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

Countrylady1071 said:


> I don't think I would give him to ANYONE, knowledgable or not, as a pasture ornament. What if their neighbor has a child or something that wanders into the pasture one day. A horse that dangerous is better off euthanized than a pasture ornament where there's still potential for an accident. I have to say, wow, you have tried so hard for this horse. Hopefully this last trainer will get somewhere with him. Good luck!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
thanks i hope we somehow have a miracle


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Countrylady1071 said:


> I don't think I would give him to ANYONE, knowledgable or not, as a pasture ornament. *What if their neighbor has a child or something that wanders into the pasture one day. A horse that dangerous is better off euthanized than a pasture ornament where there's still potential for an accident.* I have to say, wow, you have tried so hard for this horse. Hopefully this last trainer will get somewhere with him. Good luck!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is exactly what I was thinking. I really hope this last trainer gets some good results and with getting hurt.


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## highlander (Oct 26, 2008)

I know it sounds completely nuts.... And in all honesty its just not something I'd ever really do myself unless I needed to but if your management allows you to how about calmers and aromatherapy? A friend of mine had a very uptight mare who she used aromatherapy on, it worked fairly well. 
I think tho at the end of the day the animal may just not be saved. Its a shame because the majority of the damage is done by us not the equines.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

highlander said:


> I know it sounds completely nuts.... And in all honesty its just not something I'd ever really do myself unless I needed to but if your management allows you to how about calmers and aromatherapy? A friend of mine had a very uptight mare who she used aromatherapy on, it worked fairly well.
> I think tho at the end of the day the animal may just not be saved. Its a shame because the majority of the damage is done by us not the equines.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


it is very true humans are the biggest problems with horses bad behavior.

i also have tried a bunch of calmers didn't work. the aromatherapy we have tried but it only worked after we caught him.. which is when he calms down anyway so i am not sure how to use it to actually get close to him while trying to catch him... but no harm in trying again just finding a different /stronger one somehow.


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## highlander (Oct 26, 2008)

It was a spray they used, if he's settled after you catch him how about loads of groundwork about respect. I do mean loads to set up the barriers again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

do you know what type of spray they used??? its worth a try


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

OC pepper spray


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i tried that one before joe any others??


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