# Gay Rights



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

A-freakin'-men!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mousemom (Jul 23, 2011)

I am gay...so thanks for the support.


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

Agree!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Northwest Cowgirl (May 16, 2012)

mousemom said:


> I am gay...so thanks for the support.


Welcome!


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## VT Trail Trotters (Jul 21, 2011)

Trying to word this correctly...

Love is blind. If you love someone, you truly love them it doesnt matter what gender they are, if there the same or opposite! Just because you may not like something doesnt mean you need to get all up tight about it like people do with homosexuality, I have no problem at all with it. You should be able to love and be with whom ever you want to be! I really dont see whats wrong with it, im not gay, i know gay people and truthfully there pretty cool and funny. I forgot where im going with this but yeah, love is blind to everything. LOVE who ever want to love!


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## The Northwest Cowgirl (May 16, 2012)

^^ VT trail!
Amen!
Exactly how I feel!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

I REALLY hate when people say that being part of the LGBT group is a sin. I' straight and all, but I just don't think that these people should claim to know what is good for every single person on the planet. Anytime gay people come up in a conversation between one of my and my super religious friends I always tell them "It's not your place to judge. Leave it up to God" and it tends to shut them up. 
But yay for supporting them! Your friend's status is awesome, I saw something kind of like it a few hours ago on 9gag.com


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

I'm bi (I see myself as 60% attracted to men, 40% attracted to women but this shifts around a bit) and, while I don't really believe in the institution of marriage (I don't think that a ring and a wedding makes any difference to how much you love someone, and for me that's all that matters in the end), if we do have marriages in society and they are seen as a legally binding contract (and have various incentives that go with them) then everyone should have the right to marry who they want. I lived in a house with four to five gay guys for years, some of them wanted to get married, some of them didn't. But those who do should be allowed to have a choice, and display their love in the form of a wedding if they choose.

I bred budgerigars for years. Two of them were exclusively male attracted - put them in separate cages with a female companion each for breeding purposes and they'd "make eyes" through the bars at one another. So we put them back together among the non-breeders and they got together and did their business with regularity (male/male and male/female intercourse not actually different for birds, they have a cloaca - one bit does it all). The other birds were fine with that, why can't we all be fine with it? Certainly would help the population problem.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, when you are talking about companies supporting on average only 3.5% of the adult US population and what they do in the bedroom and their rights, it's a little offensive.

I won't buy a kraft product again, nor any of the others. The internet/Apple are about the only ones I'll use. McDonalds should be boycotted just for the fact that they use disgusting antibiotic and hormone riddled meat, plastics from Proctor & Gamble and several other companies are poisoning our oceans and killing innocent animals, Tide and the rest of the cleaning product providers are using chemicals that are known carcinogens that are poisoning our children, I try and buy vintage or made in the USA clothing when I can, Wal-Mart is a last resort and I'll never shop Sears or JcPennies because they all capitalize on children and the impoverished in third world countries... Those practices are extremely offensive yet you don't see more people boycotting those, are you? At least there are SOME things people will stand up for.

I have several homosexual friends that don't outwardly parade their sexual preference or base their relationships by a piece of paper that the majority of the people in this country hold sacred. I'd prefer that cookies stay out of it. I won't stay at home but I will stick to the woods.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

FlyGap said:


> I have several homosexual friends that don't outwardly parade their sexual preference or base their relationships by a piece of paper that the majority of the people in this country hold sacred.


To your first point, I'm sure you feel so much more comfortable being around them if they're not displaying their sexual preference. Good for you. But what about them?

To the second point, oh yes, the majority of people in America see marriage as very sacred, so much so that the divorce rate for first marriages is 40-50%. Very sacred indeed.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Are you saying that Homosexual relationships don't break up? Of course the statistics are higher, because the majority of people are straight. Marriage is sacred, society and the downfall of values are to fault, not so much the practice.

I don't display large doses of public affection, neither do my friends. We also don't discuss the very intimate details of our love lives. Wether or not someone is gay makes no difference to me, as long as we all keep it in the bedroom. Each to their own.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

FlyGap said:


> Are you saying that Homosexual relationships don't break up? Of course the statistics are higher, because the majority of people are straight. Marriage is sacred, society and the downfall of values are to fault, not so much the practice.


Of course I'm not saying homosexual relationships are perfect! I've witnessed a very painful breakup between two of my friends. But the sacredness of marriage is a total fallacy if around half of Americans break their wedding vows first time round. And no, percentages won't be higher with a larger population (you're speaking to a quantitative researcher here), that's the point of percentages. 50% of 1000 is the same rate as 50% of 10,000 - the only thing you have to look out for is issues with sample size...



FlyGap said:


> I don't display large doses of public affection, neither do my friends. We also don't discuss the very intimate details of our love lives. Wether or not someone is gay makes no difference to me, as long as we all keep it in the bedroom. Each to their own.


I don't display public shows of affection either, and I'm not too keen on couples kissing in front of me, be they gay or straight. But it's their business, they can do what they like. It's not hurting me - I can just look at the dog peeing against the lamp post across the street instead. If you're really not keen on hearing the details, say "TMI!" - but don't base your TMI line on whether they're gay or straight.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not going to argue, but homosexuals do not make me feel uncomfortable in any way shape or form. Why should anyone display/discuss their sexual preference? It really doesn't matter, I don't go around telling people and talking about the fact that I'm straight and my friends don't talk about the fact that they are gay. That is juvenile.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

But until everybody is equal the issue must be discussed! Do you want this just swept under the carpet? I thought the philosophical basis of modern America was freedom and equality...

And, frankly, your discomfort ranks pretty low on my priorities compared to people committing suicide because they're afraid to come out to their family, or because they've been rejected based on their sexual preference.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

As long as it's consensual, I don't care what two (or more) people do behind closed doors. 

Our sexuality and gender preferences are part of us, but they should never define who we are. I don't go around shouting that I'm hetero, because at the end of the day, to whom I'm attracted has NOTHING to do with my day to day public life.

I don't like militant fanatics of any kind, whether they be straight, bi, or gay. People shoving their sexuality in my face is just as annoying as someone trying to 'save' me by hounding me with Scripture.

To all the homophobes out there who fall back on religion to justify their hatred, if God hates homosexuals so much, why did He make so many of them? 

To all the gay/bi folks who think getting their freak on in public should be acceptable, you're not doing yourselves any favors.

I believe that ALL families should have the same benefits and rights as more traditional ones, and since we've turned the institute of marriage into a civil and not a religious ceremony, I see no issue with allowing gays to marry if they wish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

In my country the discussion revolves mostly around what influence will gay couple have upon their children.

I must admit that I sat and thought about it quite a few times, but allI know is that...we can't know yet for sure. We need a few generations of adults growing in gay parenting households, to see if indeed it might have any influence on their own sexual perception and choice.

On the other hand, even if this influence would happen, I still do not see the issue. 
Rather than abusive neglectful parents or no parents at all or a chain of foster homes, much better would be some normal, loving parents. Who happen to be gay. Fine. But what's the use to have straight parents if they make your life and their a straight hell. I imagine the children avilable for doption are not exactly coming from some paradise situations.

Also, the main counter argument that I have met in my discussions on this topic was "but wht if the kids turn gay too"
I have no idea. But I still can't see this as bad. We're not exactly on the brink of extinction. Our sexual preferences do not define us as humans. We hve gy and straight politicians, actors, artists, workers, doctors, lawyers. If my child would need surgery I would seek for the best surgeon, not for the STRAIGHtest surgeon or well, GAYest surgeon. Same , if I would look for best lawyer, best shop owner, best farrier etc.

I consider gay people must be accepted completely into society, as parents and as couples. Yes, their own sexual choice is not mine, but there's more to a man or a woman than who they choose to shag with.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I think that was a great post Northwest, if you don't mind I may share it. 

I definitely support gay rights. Who am I to judge someone's preferences? That's not my place nor anyone else's. 

I have fairly strong feelings on the subject, my SIL is a lesbian. Her girlfriend is a stay at home mom with 4 awesome children. They would love to be legally married so they could provide insurance, pre-tax 503(b) educational savings accounts, etc that the straight community takes for granted. We have talked about that quite a bit, she told me once that "I don't care about the title, the frilly wedding (though her gf very much wants that lol) I just want to provide my family with the same things that those in a traditional straight marriage can provide for theirs." She also said she really didn't care if they could/couldn't get married if her employer would allow the option for her to do those things that we take for granted.


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

I am 14 and i do not believe that gay is agenst the biible, but do gt that it is part of the world now.I am respectful.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

nice post but as fly gap has stated pretty much everything you mentioned should already be boycotted for other reasons other then being gay right supporters.

on a side note... i am a supporter of the gays but still not sure it should be called marriage. they can make up another name for it for all i care but marriage is related to religion whether right or wrong and to ask religions to change there definiton of something is wrong. having the big church wedding i also dont see happening because religions arent going to change to accept it. however they can have the big wedding outdoors with all the glam. thats what my preference is anyway so i might be biased in the outdoor wedding theme lol 

i do think they should have the same rights to things male and female partners have such as insurance and accounts etc etc.. 

i also hate the pda!! i dont display public affection with male partners so i do not want to see anyone whether gay or straight showing it... thats what private households were made for.

as for them raising children...seriously !!! how is this a bad idea... children need to have a functional family whether hetero or **** parents. how is this any worse then a male raising his child in a living enviornment which involves many roommates.. or vice versa a women raising a child with other female roommates. and i bet alot of gay partners would make better parents then some straight parents.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> To your first point, I'm sure you feel so much more comfortable being around them if they're not displaying their sexual preference. Good for you. But what about them?


I feel much more comfortable about _anyone _not displaying their sexual preference - whether the person is straight, gay, or bi. It's not my business, and I don't care really. I think people should not bring to the public (much less discuss) what they do in a bedroom. Again, whether you live with the same sex or opposite sex partner - it's your and only your decision and life, noone else has a right to tell you what to do and what is good/bad.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> I feel much more comfortable about _anyone _not displaying their sexual preference - whether the person is straight, gay, or bi. It's not my business, and I don't care really. I think people should not bring to the public (much less discuss) what they do in a bedroom. Again, whether you live with the same sex or opposite sex partner - it's your and only your decision and life, noone else has a right to tell you what to do and what is good/bad.


I agree. I despise and find offensive and disgusting homosexuals that flaunt their sexual preference. You don't see heterosexuals spouting their preference all over the place. You are what you are...there is no need to broadcast and advertise it all over the place. There is nothing "special" or appealing about being homosexual, any more than there is being heterosexual. In today's day and time, when such things are becoming more and more accepted, such behavior is IMO counterproductive...


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

I am 14 and I do believe that being gay is agenst the biible, but do get that it is part of the world now.I am respectful. I realy do not like how some shove it in our faces,that is why many people do not like homosexuals.that is what i ment to say earlier but i was typing to fast


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Why cant cookie makers just make cookies, Why do they feel the need to support anything ? Other than maybe Got Milk ? Cant eat oreos without milk,,, oh unless they are crumbled in ice cream,,, Ummmmm McFlurry's to wash down my hormone laced, child labor produced, non biodegradable plastic wrapped, bigmac,


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## TristaJean (May 23, 2012)

I find bad grammar and ignorance to be offensive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

TristaJean said:


> I find bad grammar and ignorance to be offensive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I find alot of things offensive.Its not ignorance if I know wat I am talking about,not saying I dont like gay people but does it say gay and stuff like that in the bible? Do you truely know? i find ignorance offensive.


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## TristaJean (May 23, 2012)

*a lot
And I'm sure you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

TristaJean said:


> *a lot
> And I'm sure you do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Sorry, didnt know U were a language arts teacher.didnt mean to offend anyone,stating an opinion just like everyone else.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

horseandme said:


> I find alot of things offensive.Its not ignorance if I know wat I am talking about,not saying I dont like gay people but does it say gay and stuff like that in the bible? Do you truely know? i find ignorance offensive.


You're 14 years old. The things you _think_ you know what you're talking about will change dramatically once you get some maturity, higher education, and life experiences.

I find children who use the Bible to bash gays offensive. They're generally just parroting the homophobia of their parents though, so I guess it's the parents whom I ultimately find offensive.


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> You're 14 years old. The things you _think_ you know what you're talking about will change dramatically once you get some maturity, higher education, and life experiences.
> 
> I find children who use the Bible to bash gays offensive. They're generally just parroting the homophobia of their parents though, so I guess it's the parents whom I ultimately find offensive.


 i am not bashing, i said nothing rood. I have NOTHING agenst gays and bisexuals. No homophobia at all in my family, I like everyone until they do something to prevent me from likeing them and being gay does not do that.The world is changing and we have diffrent opinions.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Faceman said:


> I agree. I despise and find offensive and disgusting homosexuals that flaunt their sexual preference. You don't see heterosexuals spouting their preference all over the place. You are what you are...there is no need to broadcast and advertise it all over the place. There is nothing "special" or appealing about being homosexual, any more than there is being heterosexual. In today's day and time, when such things are becoming more and more accepted, such behavior is IMO counterproductive...


 
So, you don't get upset if straight people talk about someone they find attractive (of the opposite sex), give their partner a peck on the cheek in greeting or a hug or even a friendly pat on the butt? or sit next to each other with arms or hands entangled, or look lovingly at each other, or talk about their dreams together or the fight they had the other night.
This level of behavior is not flaunting their sexual preference , right?

Ok, can two men who love each other, may have years together , are monogamous, can they do all this withou arousing your displeasure and distate? ask yourself and be honest.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

TristaJean said:


> I find bad grammar and ignorance to be offensive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Annoying, maybe, but offensive? you must be offended a lot these days.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't have a problem with that type of behavior, Tiny. That's merely showing affection in small, familiar ways.

Regardless of someone's sexual orientation, I find it offensive when people decide to engage in trying to find each other's tonsils with their tongues, or groping each other's genitals in public.

Hey great, you've found someone who wants to bump uglies with you! Please take it behind closed doors! Kthanx!!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that is just precious! "bump uglies" !!! I just love it. And I agree. That kind of stuff is irksome , whoever is indulging in it.

I can't stop laughing!


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## TristaJean (May 23, 2012)

Tinylily....
I can't tell if you missed my point, or are being sarcastic and understood me.
I honestly hope it's the second one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TristaJean (May 23, 2012)

*tinyliny
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

think I am being sarcastic, and a bit snitty. Sorry.


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## TristaJean (May 23, 2012)

No need to apologize. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Actually I do get offended by overt sexual talk. I work in an environment that has lots of tourists in summer cloths going by, The guys I work with oogle and make comments at every single woman they see. Seriously they act like they have never actually seen a woman before. Maybe they havent, or the ones they have seen arnt very attractive. I have no idea. But it does get old. Since we are talking about opinions I'll go ahead and post mine. And I really dont care if you like em or not.
1. Gays in the Bible, I dont care. I'm not God, nor would I presume to speak for God. He is perfectly capable of sorting things out.
2. Gay chicks ? Ok I'll admit kinda hot.
3. Gay dudes ? ewwww,
4. Gay Marriage ? I think they should have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us. Why should they get off so easy ? Seriously it doesnt affect me so why should I care ?
5. Gay association. A private club, organization or what not should have every right to admit or exclude anyone they see fit for any reason they see fit. Its a private organization.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

sounds pretty clear. Though I have never figured why men think two lesbians are "hot".


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## TristaJean (May 23, 2012)

I will never understand the whole "Dude lesbians are so hot, but eww gay guys are just gross" mentality.
It makes no sense, and fetishizes lesbians.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

I've generally found guys aren't attracted to actual lesbians but what people in the UK might term lipstick lesbians (not the same as the American term, which just means a very feminine lesbian) - straight girls who'll make out with each other because they see it in adult films and think guys will like it. As ever, life imitates art (or, rather, pr0n).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Regardless of someone's sexual orientation, I find it offensive when people decide to engage in trying to find each other's tonsils with their tongues, or groping each other's genitals in public.


I find it gross. Unrelated of gender or relations. BTW, I find certain patting the butt to be rather gross too.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

Yep, I'm not keen on overt public shows of affection either, whatever the orientation of the couple. Although I've been guilty of patting my horse on the bum in public so I hope I haven't offended! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Altho not gay, I welcomed the legislations that gays could marry. I never did understand why an employer would accept a common law spouse (opposite gender) to the benefit package, yet it could not be extended to gay relationships. Now it can. They are entitled to the same security as others. I've had church people rant on and one about what the bible says and rather than beat a dead horse, I ask them how it affects them and they are always stuck for an answer..Kitten, I agree, it's just poor manners. I'm fine with a cheek peck but not public foreplay.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Men think lesbians are hot because the porn industry has made it appear that all women, regardless of actual sexual orientation, are all lesbians if given the chance. Guys, it's PORN! It's NOT REAL LIFE!

The idea of touching another woman sexually makes me. me nauseated, not turned on. A true hetero woman is no more attracted to the same sex than a hetero man. Deal with it.

Oh, and I'd never wear heels while engaged in the act, as that's a good way to put out someone's eye. It's all fun and games until somebody takes a stiletto to the eye!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Sexuality is a major part of who a person truly is.
Heterosexuals do not need to proclaim their sexuality as the public will assume that most are.
Identifying as gay or lesbian is an empowering statement of self awarenesss.
The issues of race, religion, and sexual orientation are important and do indeed matter.
Homophobia is based in fear and lack of understanding.
Denying someone the same rights as everyone else only stigmatizes Gays.
Public displays of affection are never in good taste if they cause you to blush or sweat while engaged in them.
a touch or a kiss is not a problem and should not be for anyone.
digging for internal organs however should be reserved for the privacy of your own home. Shalom


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> Altho not gay, I welcomed the legislations that gays could marry. I never did understand why an employer would accept a common law spouse (opposite gender) to the benefit package, yet it could not be extended to gay relationships. Now it can. They are entitled to the same security as others. I've had church people rant on and one about what the bible says and rather than beat a dead horse, I ask them how it affects them and they are always stuck for an answer..Kitten, I agree, it's just poor manners. I'm fine with a cheek peck but not public foreplay.


Common law marriage is no longer recognized in Georgia. There are no benefits packages without going through the legal marriage. For the record, I am straight, but I don't care if you are or not. And I don't want to see you kissing regardless .......


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

> 4. Gay Marriage ? I think they should have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us. Why should they get off so easy ? Seriously it doesnt affect me so why should I care ?


:rofl: hahahahaha.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

tinyliny said:


> So, you don't get upset if straight people talk about someone they find attractive (of the opposite sex), give their partner a peck on the cheek in greeting or a hug or even a friendly pat on the butt? or sit next to each other with arms or hands entangled, or look lovingly at each other, or talk about their dreams together or the fight they had the other night.
> This level of behavior is not flaunting their sexual preference , right?
> 
> Ok, can two men who love each other, may have years together , are monogamous, can they do all this withou arousing your displeasure and distate? ask yourself and be honest.


I don't have to ask myself anything - I am perfectly comfortable with my own sexuality and my attitude toward homosexuals. I have a homosexual Uncle who has been with his same "partner" for over 55 years now. They don't bother me a bit, because they are just like anyone else - they don't walk into a room and announce to the world they are homosexual as if it were some badge of honor. Then I have a homosexual nephew that just turned 30, and he throws it in your face constantly, talking of little else, and making sure everyone he encounters knows he is homosexual - when most people could really care less. As I said, you don't see heterosexuals broadcasting to the world they are heterosexuals. Flaunting has nothing to do with casual touching or showing affection...at least to me, although I am not a touchy feely type of person myself...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

TristaJean said:


> I will never understand the whole "Dude lesbians are so hot, but eww gay guys are just gross" mentality.
> It makes no sense, and fetishizes lesbians.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, not all men think that way - certainly not me. If a girl is hot she is hot - doesn't have much to do with whether she is homosexual or heterosexual. I don't think a woman's sexual preference has much to do with how attractive or unattractive she might be...


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I honestly just don't understand why people are trying to 'convert' us heteros to the homosexual outlook. You say that we're the ones who point fingers and wag tounges, but honestly I don't see any difference between us. If we dissagree even passively with gay rights, you're willing to jump at our throats and call us homophobes, just as much as SOME of us are willing to judge you for being homosexual. Neither of us are any better than eachother :/


I understand that this is a sensative subject. But so is starvation. Death. Where we go after we die. Family. Can't we all just give eachother respect on these sorts of issues and not have to feel like we have to butt heads or throw money at certain organizations? I mean honestly. Why do you think all of those different companies support gay rights? Because THEY WANT MORE MONEY. If they were openly against gay rights, they would loose not only their gay customers but also their straight customers who supported gay rights. I'm not saying thats wrong of them, but its not because everyone that works for them or is involved in business with them are actually for it. 

I'm not for gay rights. And I know that you are all going to jump at me now, because although this is supposed to be a discussion, many of you are biased before you even start reading what I'm about to say now. Its a one sided debate.

So, yes. I said it. I'm not for gay rights. I'm also...get this..._a christian._ Which immediately makes me childish and immature, right? Now you hate me right? You'll forget all of the very mature, adult conversations I've had, all of the situations I've handled well, who I am, and why. Just because of my labels. Thats fine, hate me if you want. But know that I'm not going to condemn YOU for your affliation. That makes me the bigger person. I'm not going to hate you and I'm not going to condemn you. In fact, I love each and every one of you even if we don't agree. I can hate something that you do but not hate you, just like I can hate that my dad is an alchoholic but still love him because he's my dad. I dont think less of him, I don't go around telling everyone that I hate alcoholism or beer. I simply love him as a person without agreeing with him.

I don't openly proclaim that I hate homosexuals because I don't. I value them all as people and will not treat them differently. Yet I'm labeled as a homophobe all of the time. Isnt there something wrong with that? But I dont have organizations supporting me or marches in my honor to promote acceptance, do I?

Isn't there something wrong here? :/


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

inaclick said:


> In my country the discussion revolves mostly around what influence will gay couple have upon their children.
> 
> I must admit that I sat and thought about it quite a few times, but allI know is that...we can't know yet for sure. We need a few generations of adults growing in gay parenting households, to see if indeed it might have any influence on their own sexual perception and choice.
> 
> ...


 First off lol you dont just turn gay You dont just wake one day and say well since my mom is lesbian I think I will be too. lol its not catchy and its not heriditary. 
I know a couple of gay marriages that raised wonderful well balanced children that are straight. Its rasing children to respect others and not to judge others race sexuality religion etc etc. Want respect and peace and rights it starts in the home and with our children.

Gays are people too and they have rights!

TRR


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

Joe4d said:


> Actually I do get offended by overt sexual talk. I work in an environment that has lots of tourists in summer cloths going by, The guys I work with oogle and make comments at every single woman they see. Seriously they act like they have never actually seen a woman before. Maybe they havent, or the ones they have seen arnt very attractive. I have no idea. But it does get old. Since we are talking about opinions I'll go ahead and post mine. And I really dont care if you like em or not.
> 1. Gays in the Bible, I dont care. I'm not God, nor would I presume to speak for God. He is perfectly capable of sorting things out.
> 2. Gay chicks ? Ok I'll admit kinda hot.
> 3. Gay dudes ? ewwww,
> ...


 Okay JOE I just spit my coffee out when I read this sooo wonderfully put! and I agree.
Too many people use the bible as a crutch when ever they want to be proved right. I do not believe in a book written by a human. I know there is a god a higher power even. I dont need someone pointing at me telling me " It says it in the book so be it!" oh please

Im straight have alot of gay friends and even relatives that I cherish very much.
and as far as marriage goes Vows go out the window the minute the honey moon is over!

Love your post JOE!

TRR


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> Men think lesbians are hot because the porn industry has made it appear that all women, regardless of actual sexual orientation, are all lesbians if given the chance. Guys, it's PORN! It's NOT REAL LIFE!
> 
> The idea of touching another woman sexually makes me. me nauseated, not turned on. A true hetero woman is no more attracted to the same sex than a hetero man. Deal with it.
> 
> Oh, and I'd never wear heels while engaged in the act, as that's a good way to put out someone's eye. It's all fun and games until somebody takes a stiletto to the eye!


 RACER 2 girls ummm doing it shouldnt make you hot your 1 straight 2 a female lol

a guy who deosnt find it hot is a guy whos gay plain and simple lol

LMFAO love the heels comment heck never mind pocking ones eyes out I would hurt myself just walking.

TRR


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Endiku said:


> I'm not for gay rights. I'm also...get this..._a christian._ /


So you don't see gays as people deserving the same rights and equality that you enjoy, merely because you were born hetero?

I don't hate you, but I do pity you because you seem to believe that being gay is a disease or condition comparable to alcoholism or drug addiction.

I also consider myself a Christian, but I believe that all of us are equal in God's eyes. Christ taught acceptance and equality, not bigotry disguised as 'hate the sin but love the sinner'.

My father was a dyed in the wool Irish Catholic of the old school, and yet he didn't think homosexuality was a sin, perversion, or that gays were somehow lesser human beings. He believed, as I do, that a person's sexuality is set before they're born. It's no more a choice than it was for me to 'choose' heterosexuality.

I can disagree with your opinion without hating you, but I do find it extremely disappointing that you were convinced going in that somehow you'd be persecuted for it so immediately went on the offensive, accusing the rest of us of hatred.

Gays are people, and should be accorded the same rights and privileges as those who only by an accident of birth are hetereosexual.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> I can disagree with your opinion without hating you, but I do find it extremely disappointing that you were convinced going in that somehow you'd be persecuted for it so immediately went on the offensive, accusing the rest of us of hatred.


People on both sides of this issue tend to get extremely upset and hate on the other side. Any group that screams out hatred does more to turn people against their cause than they ever convert people to their cause. We are all different and we should all try to get along.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

TimberRidgeRanch said:


> *RACER 2 girls ummm doing it shouldnt makeshift:? you hot your 1 straight 2 a female lol*
> 
> *a guy who deosnt find it hot is a guy whos gay plain and simple lol[/
> 
> TRR*


*

So by your definition, I should find two guys going at it 'hot' or I'm a lesbian? You certainly have a strange idea of what constitutes heterosexuality. 

Why is it 'natural' for a hetero man to be turned on by two women going at it? I don't get hot and bothered when I see two guys doing it, any more than watching two women together.*


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

As much as I don't understand it, a lot of men get stirred up by seeing women "in action". Maybe it is instinct. Maybe it is just yucky.


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

Endiku said:


> I honestly just don't understand why people are trying to 'convert' us heteros to the homosexual outlook. You say that we're the ones who point fingers and wag tounges, but honestly I don't see any difference between us. If we dissagree even passively with gay rights, you're willing to jump at our throats and call us homophobes, just as much as SOME of us are willing to judge you for being homosexual. Neither of us are any better than eachother :/
> 
> 
> I understand that this is a sensative subject. But so is starvation. Death. Where we go after we die. Family. Can't we all just give eachother respect on these sorts of issues and not have to feel like we have to butt heads or throw money at certain organizations? I mean honestly. Why do you think all of those different companies support gay rights? Because THEY WANT MORE MONEY. If they were openly against gay rights, they would loose not only their gay customers but also their straight customers who supported gay rights. I'm not saying thats wrong of them, but its not because everyone that works for them or is involved in business with them are actually for it.
> ...


 I agree with everything you just said. Because we disagree,we are stupid and don't make sense.This is completely agenst my morals. Don't jump on me for not agreeing with you.


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## PaintLover17 (Jan 3, 2011)

I wasn't going to jump in on this one, but I found a really good article I wanted to post. It's a long read but definitely worth it. As a Catholic, this perfectly covers what I believe in regarding homosexuals. Basically, the debate on if homosexuals should marry is just a small part of a bigger problem that is reducing the holiness of marriage. It's late now and I'm tired, but I'll come back again tomorrow to post some more. 
Gay Marriage | Catholic Answers
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

PaintLover17 said:


> I wasn't going to jump in on this one, but I found a really good article I wanted to post. It's a long read but definitely worth it. As a Catholic, this perfectly covers what I believe in regarding homosexuals. Basically, the debate on if homosexuals should marry is just a small part of a bigger problem that is reducing the holiness of marriage. It's late now and I'm tired, but I'll come back again tomorrow to post some more.
> Gay Marriage | Catholic Answers
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is marriage holy? Could have told me that, my parents got married in a registry office and I plan to follow suit. Don't see any point in making promises in the presence of a god I don't believe in. Feel free to practice any religion you choose but marriage isn't the domain of Catholics (or Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, atheists, Satanists or any other belief or non-belief), it's a legally binding contract.

And your statement also implies that non-heterosexual people are unholy. I don't believe in holy but my gay Catholic friends are no less devout than any other Catholics I know.

The law must be based on reason, logic and universal ethics, not some group's moral code.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

Endiku said:


> I honestly just don't understand why people are trying to 'convert' us heteros to the homosexual outlook. You say that we're the ones who point fingers and wag tounges, but honestly I don't see any difference between us. If we dissagree even passively with gay rights, you're willing to jump at our throats and call us homophobes, just as much as SOME of us are willing to judge you for being homosexual. Neither of us are any better than eachother :/
> 
> 
> I understand that this is a sensative subject. But so is starvation. Death. Where we go after we die. Family. Can't we all just give eachother respect on these sorts of issues and not have to feel like we have to butt heads or throw money at certain organizations? I mean honestly. Why do you think all of those different companies support gay rights? Because THEY WANT MORE MONEY. If they were openly against gay rights, they would loose not only their gay customers but also their straight customers who supported gay rights. I'm not saying thats wrong of them, but its not because everyone that works for them or is involved in business with them are actually for it.
> ...




The only thing I don't like about this post is that I can't "like" it more than once......


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## Conrad And Freddie (Mar 7, 2012)

I think it's sick how people can turn their nose up at Gay people. How is letting them get married wrong? If two people love each other then they should have the RIGHT to marry. Marriage shouldn't be restricted to heterosexual couples. Same with surrogacy and adoption. I know know about America, but Australia is really barbaric about their gay rights. In Queensland, a gay couple can be called "A Registered Relationship", they can't have a wedding ceremony. I think it's really sad, the world needs to move forward, how are gay relationships different to heterosexual relationships? I didn't know that someones actions in the bedroom could cause such an issue 

Sorry for the rant...


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

The only way to keep marriage and church separate is to have two types of marriage. One is religious and the other is a civil union. As far as Australia telling people they can't have a ceremony; that's weird. In America, I think that we could have any kind of private ceremony that we could think of. 

By the way, thinking about all this stuff gave me bad dreams. I think I'm too old......


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

About marriage being holy.
Remember this Abraham married his fathers daughter.
Theri son married his Uncles daughter. Their son married his Uncles two daughters.
If a Man rapes a virgin He must marry her or pay the price of her dowry.
the only people that have a say in the matter are the rapist and her father.
If a woman's husband dies according to hebrew law she must marry his brother.
My point being that the woman had no say in the marriage.
Infact the only ceremaony was a man taking a woman into his tent with her fathers permission.
A man MUST divorce his wife if she is barren or Take another.
Marriage has evolved. It is also a legal matter that must be registered in the courts to be valid. Therefore a civil matter that everyone should have the opprotunity to have.
The matter of it being holy is highly debatable. Shalom


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I wonder if man's perception of "Holy" has evolved.

I agree that everyone should have the right to legal marriage. I am so thankful that I can put my husband on my insurance at work and it would be unfair if I couldn't. Same would hold true if he were female. I would still have the responsibility.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> The matter of it being holy is highly debatable. Shalom


It is debatable by you, but not for everyone. To 65 million Catholics in the US, by far the largest religious group, marriage is a holy sacrament. If you don't know what a Catholic sacrament is, google it. And to the vast majority of the 30 million Baptists, 12 million Methodists, 8 million Lutherans, 4 million Presbyterians, and so on, it is indeed a "holy matrimony".

Here's a newsflash...you are in the minority, along with the atheists and agnostics. Here's another newsflash...everyone can't have their way.

Why the heck is it that evey minority wants the things THEY believe in to be the law of the land, but it is horribly wrong when the majority wants the same thing? Does anyone not know what a Democracy is? The majority rules. If you choose to live here, you should abide by what the majority dictates. That is partially what is wrong with Washington - far too much pandering to minority groups, with the Democrats obviously leading the way.

Homosexual marriage may come to full fruition some day, but to the vast majority of Americans, a homosexual "marriage" is not a marriage at all, and certainly is not a union blessed by God. Most Americans, including me, on the other hand, approve civil unions between homosexuals, and are perfectly willing to grant these unions the same rights as spousal rights. There is absolutely no need for homosexuals to intrude on what most consider the meaning of marriage other than to be obnoxious. If homosexuals must attach a tag to their unions to somehow feel good, why not call the unions another name than marriage? The term marriage is already taken and homosexual unions do not meet the definition...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

horseandme said:


> This is completely agenst my morals. Don't jump on me for not agreeing with you.


Interesting, since in previous posts you stated you don't have an issue with gays, but now it's 'against your morals'. So which is it, little girl?

I'm not sure what gays have to do with YOUR morals, but Christ preached love, tolerance, and equality, which were considered extremely controversial ideas. He went against the established views of what was 'right' and 'moral' in his time. 

Morality, like religion and culture, is ever changing. Polygamy used to be considered right and proper, and some religions and cultures still believe and practice it. Other groups believe that marriage should be monogamous, and for them polygamy is a sin. Depending on to which group you belong, it's considered either right or sinful. 

So, which group is right? Only the one to which you belong? That's how religions divide and conquer, by declaring that anyone who doesn't believe as they do are sinful, wrong, and doomed to hellfire. Sorry, but I don't think God has hatreds or prejudices, nor do I think He's so petty as to care what consenting adults do with and to each other in the privacy of their own homes.

You're allowed to disagree with me, but that doesn't make my opinions wrong, sinful, or morally reprehensible.


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## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

I have no issue with gay marriage. I don't find it uncomfortable, and I think that showing affection in public [to an extent] is more than acceptable for both homosexuals and heterosexuals.( I'm talking about a kiss/hug, not full on public foreplay which would make anyone uncomfortable regardless of the participants) If they want to flaunt they're love, by all means, I'm happy that they found someone and I'm happy that they're happy. If they want to get married, all the power to them, they [should] have every right to, they aren't hurting anyone if they want to start a family or be together, after all, it isn't anyone's business but they're own how they live and what they do.

I grew up in a very homophobic family. My sister and mother being the 'most accepting', in that they only share they're discomfort about it and leave it at that. My dad being a step up, who, as I recall, was worried that I was gay because I was holding hands with a girl ( who has gay parents ) on our way to school when we were 7 ( seriously?). My uncle and auntie are the most abrasive, going out of they're way to state facts in the bible about how 'wrong' it is, my uncle refuses to watch shows with gay characters ( modern family for example, hilarious show but he hates it because of the gay couple specifically), in our last meeting, we somehow get on the subject of gay marriage, and he brings out his bible, and states that aids was created by god as a punishment for the gay 'epidemic', and that that great flood was also created because of increasing homosexual acts. Anyway, long story short, I love my family dearly, they are by all means good people, yet the extremes that certain members go to voice they're hatred is rather offensive to me. 

I have little to no issue with they're opinion, if they don't agree with gay marriage or the LGBT community, I don't mind. I have an issue with how they outwardly make offensive claims regardless of who's around. They have every right to voice opinions but doing something in a disrespectful manner is where I start feeling offended. They are the main reason why I often feel alone in my family, not because of this, but because they have such strong and overpowering views that I do not agree with. I am the first member in my immediate family to refuse they're religion despite my upbringing, and have very different views of the world and how it works, etc. Anyway, that's a bit off topic.

Long story short. I am personally for the rights of the LGBT community. I accept the opinions of both sides, I only have an issue with the offensive and disrespectful lengths that some people go to prove they're views ( this is true for both sides I suppose though )


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## redpony (Apr 17, 2012)

My husband and I were married in a church, however the document we signed was secular, from our county courthouse. Marriage in America is NOT ABOUT RELIGION, it is a legal contact between between two people. Does the church divide your property, make you pay spousal support or child support in a divorce? No, that is our government because it is a legal contract. I don't believe we should force churches to perform gay marriages but I definitely don't believe they should be able to prevent them either!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

redpony said:


> My husband and I were married in a church, however the document we signed was secular, from our county courthouse. Marriage in America is NOT ABOUT RELIGION, it is a legal contact between between two people. Does the church divide your property, make you pay spousal support or child support in a divorce? No, that is our government because it is a legal contract. I don't believe we should force churches to perform gay marriages but I definitely don't believe they should be able to prevent them either!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are wrong...please see my previoius post. For the majority of Americans, marriage is indeed a matter of religion. If it is not to you, that is just fine - I am not one to criticize others' beliefs about marriage. But to say marriage is not a matter of religion in the US is absurd - meaning no offense, of course...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Face, I do agree that those who ascribe to certain religious beliefs consider marriage a sacrament. 

That's no more wrong than any other opinion, and religious organizations have the right to deny marrying those of whose lifestyles they disapprove.

But to try and push religious beliefs as a way to keep rights and benefits from a certain segment of society, is where I have problems.


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## redpony (Apr 17, 2012)

Face,I believe you missed my point. The fact that we engaged in the holy sacrament of marriage in a church did not mean we were married in the eyes of the law. Your (collective) religious freedom cannot be allowed to impinge on my (collective) civil rights.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gilly (May 28, 2011)

_Mar-riage
__(1)_*:* the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship *recognized by law *
_(2)_ *:* the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex _marriage_>

Thanks, Merriam-Webster! 


marriage |ˈmarɪdʒ| 
noun
1 the formal union of a man and a woman, typically as *recognized by law*, by which they become husband and wife
• informal: a union between partners of the same sex; a civil partnership.

Thanks, Oxford Dictionary! 

Don't you love that awkward moment when the definition of marriage doesn't refer to religion at all?


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

redpony said:


> Face,I believe you missed my point. The fact that we engaged in the holy sacrament of marriage in a church did not mean we were married in the eyes of the law. Your (collective) religious freedom cannot be allowed to impinge on my (collective) civil rights.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I understand - and everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. What I tae exception to is this: "Marriage in America is NOT ABOUT RELIGION". As I have ponited out, marriage in America IS about religion. Just because a minority does not consider marriage a holy union does not change facts. And I would ask: list 1 single civil right that is being iminged upon you becasuse you do not consider your marriage a holy union...just 1. A teeny tiny one will do...


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## Gilly (May 28, 2011)

The LEGAL act of marriage (see my two definitions above) should not be about religion. It's a LEGAL ACT. Not a religious one. If you get a rouge priest to "marry" you to your heterosexual partner in a field and the paperwork (like...say...the LEGAL document that is a marriage certificate/license) isn't there/signed then it isn't a marriage. It's a rouge priest and two people standing in a field after saying "I do" and kissing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Face, I do agree that those who ascribe to certain religious beliefs consider marriage a sacrament.
> 
> That's no more wrong than any other opinion, and religious organizations have the right to deny marrying those of whose lifestyles they disapprove.
> 
> But to try and push religious beliefs as a way to keep rights and benefits from a certain segment of society, is where I have problems.


I never said it was wrong - only that the majority of people consider marriage a holy union.

And no one is pushing religious beliefs - certainly not me. If you ever catch me doing that (which isn't going to happen), let me know. I get a little preachy about morals now and then because I think as a society our morals are fallen to a level barely above canines. But I never preach religion.

And I don't subscribe to depriving anyone of anything. But "marriage" is already taken. There is no need for homosexuals - or anyone else - to degrade its meaning to (worldwide) billions of people. What if homosexuals wanted to address the cross or the crucifix as their group symbol? Would that seem right? There is no difference - they can call their union anything they want - bullmoose if they chose. "We are getting bullmoosed on Saturday". There is abolutely no need for them to use the term marriage - as I said earlier, other than being obnoxioius.. After all, just who is it that is being "pushy" here?...


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## Gilly (May 28, 2011)

Degrade? Really?

Oh, and a cross is a cross is a cross. Norway, Switzerland and Denmark have crosses on their flags so, clearly, they must be stealing it from Christians. SOMEONE CALL THE POPE!

No-one gets to dibs words or symbols. Seriously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

I am a Christian. I work with a gay guy, and I love working with him, he has a great personality.

But according to the Bible, which I am a firm follower of, the homosexual act is sin. People say, well that's not fair, they were born that way. This may be true, I really don't know, but I do know that EVERYONE was born with a sin nature. And being gay is not a sin, the lifestyle is. 

What people tend to forget is that it's not the only sin! So is adultry. So is fornication. So is stealing. Lying. Coveting, and even overeating! The last two sins are more "socially acceptable" in church settings but just because it's accepted doesn't mean it's ok.

Our country is in shambles in general. You see that with the high divorce rates, so many abortions, the bad economy. They are the symptoms of a greater problem which I believe is in the church. Most Christians aren't living in Christ!!! We are so lukewarm, we are judgemental and unloving. We state the problem, but we don't offer solutions. We have accepted Christ without "counting the cost". We have not taken up our cross and followed Him. We live easy lives and sit in judgement of others while we ourselves have not taken the time to KNOW our Lord and become like Him.

My point of my ramblings was that being gay is not sin, but yes, living that lifestyle is. But it's not the only one and Christians forget that. We Christians need to get our act together instead of just expecting the rest of the world to.

Also, a lot of people, including Christians think that because I'm straight I can date whoever I want. This is not true. It has to be another Christian, and more than that, because I am following God it has to be someone I know He truly approves of for me. As everything we do should be for the glory of God.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

And I know what it's like to say no to someone you love and have to break off a relationship because it is dishonoring to God. It hurts like crazy, but it was worth it. But I had a reason that was built on a stronger relationship with a God that had given me anything. 

I know I listed a lot of rules in my last post but it's not about the rules, it's about a relationship with Jesus Christ. And it's about faith, grace, and love. It's not by works we are saved, but as we come to know our savior and spend time with Him regularly we become more like Him. Sinning less is an outward symptom of an inward change.

Again, living a homosexual lifestyle is sin. Which is why I do not support it. But it's not something that's just going to go away because of any laws we do or don't have or because of any judgement we pass on these people. If Christians want change the country needs a revival, not laws.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> So you don't see gays as people deserving the same rights and equality that you enjoy, merely because you were born hetero?
> 
> I don't hate you, but I do pity you because you seem to believe that being gay is a disease or condition comparable to alcoholism or drug addiction.
> 
> ...


If you will reread my post, you'll see that never once did I mention that gays are not deserving of equality and all of the rights that I am able to have. I do believe that they should have the healthcare, insurance, etc that I have access to because they are human beings, just like I am. 

I merely said that yes I _do_ believe that being gay is a sin, and that is not going to change. That doesnt mean that I'm degrading or otherwise lessening these people to myself. Its not like I'm perfect. Any of you who know me know that I mess up a lot as well. I don't think that gay people are any more damned that I am. The only problem is this.

I'm eternally damned. As a human being, I have faults, and standing before a holy and righteous God, I'm found guilty of many things. I'm no more holy than a murderer is because my Lord sees all sin as being the same. Thats why _I_ constantly have to be appologizing and trying to correct my behaviors that cause sin, and thats why _they_ need to appologize and change the behaviors that cause their sins. We ALL need to work towards bettering ourselves, no matter who we are.

Yes, Christ taught acceptance and equality, but he also taught us to hold eachother accountable for our actions and for others actions. 

You can pity me if you'd like, it hasn't been the first time nor will it be the last. However, you should know that I _don't_ think of it as a disease or a condition. I merely believe that it is a sin that is formed by our human natures and that, with help, can also be taken away. Its happened.

I personally do _not_ think that certain people are born homosexual, and that it is nurtured by a certain mindset instead. If theres something genetic that causes you to be that way, why does it take many people so long to 'realize' that they are 'gay' and change from being heterosexual to homosexual? I've known many a people who have married, had children, been happy, gotten bored, and 'realized' themselves and decided that they were gay, leaving their wife and children while they go find a new partner that does what they feel like a spouse should do. How would they be explained? I dont see any gay people disincluding them and saying that they arent 'real' gays, so what about it?

I'm not critisizing, I'm trying to understand. It seems so controversial and illogical to me to fall back on that, or to use the fact that over -this amount- of species of animals are known to have gay relations which is basically using a crutch, then blasting me for using the Bible (which, by the way, was writte by God, not man) to support what _I_ believe.


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

srh1 said:


> I am a Christian. I work with a gay guy, and I love working with him, he has a great personality.
> 
> But according to the Bible, which I am a firm follower of, the homosexual act is sin. People say, well that's not fair, they were born that way. This may be true, I really don't know, but I do know that EVERYONE was born with a sin nature. And being gay is not a sin, the lifestyle is.
> 
> ...



I too, believe along the same lines. And I too have gay friends, we have discussed the whole gay life and religious beliefs often, believe it or not. Here is the same thing I tell them.

We are all born with a "sin" nature. That's just the way it is. We are all pulled and tempted to sin in every possible way. I am a sinner, and the worst of sinners, and in no way deserve to have the living water that Christ provided for me.

But homosexual behavior is not a "life style", it is a SIN. Just because we are a more modern world and people think we have progressed in our thinking doesn't change that. So I love the person, but hate the sin in their life because it leads to ultimate destruction. I also hate the sin in my life. The ways I am tempted are not the same ways the homosexual is, but there is temptation for me too. And yes, sometimes I fall down and have to get on my knees and repent.

You see, Christ gave us a wonderful gift, our eternal salvation, for free. But a true Christian walk begins with repentance. And folks, repentance is more than a half-hearted attempt to say "I'm sorry." Repentance is a heart wrenching "Oh my Lord I am so sorry for my sins, please forgive me!" and choosing to WALK AWAY FROM THE SIN.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Ooookay, this thread is going towards religious debates which would be wonderful if I was not an atheist / agnostic / maybe'ist. 

No matter what your beliefs are, steer away from trouble and try not to kill anybody. It's really not worth it.

These being said, I salute you and off I go.


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

inaclick, I understand what you are saying, but I never had enough faith to be an atheist or agnostic. That takes a kind of faith all by itself.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Gilly said:


> Degrade? Really?
> 
> Oh, and a cross is a cross is a cross. Norway, Switzerland and Denmark have crosses on their flags so, clearly, they must be stealing it from Christians. SOMEONE CALL THE POPE!
> 
> ...


Yes, really. Is there something in my post you don't understand? Using the term marriage, which is a term representing a holy union, for a homosexual union is degrading both the term and the instituion...as I have already said.

Oh, and if you do 30 seconds worth of research, you will find the crosses on the 3 flags you mention represent Christianity - they are not stealing from it or using the cross for something altogether different...


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> Interesting, since in previous posts you stated you don't have an issue with gays, but now it's 'against your morals'. So which is it, little girl?
> 
> I'm not sure what gays have to do with YOUR morals, but Christ preached love, tolerance, and equality, which were considered extremely controversial ideas. He went against the established views of what was 'right' and 'moral' in his time.
> 
> ...


 Getting drunk is againnst my morals too, but i dont hate people who do it.Not that they are the same. Actually at church today he preached on this.Everyone should love everyone and respect them. I do not disrespect them at all.They are humans just like everyone else. Loath the sin not the sinner.And the little girl remark,yes i am a little girl i guess, but I have values and beliefs and I am not ashamed of them and I am aloud to say it.God does not hate gays,but in fact it is a sin and all sins are stilll sins no matter why they do it.The bible should be used! That is how we know what God expects from us along with church and prayer. The bible is the most important thing next to god himself,so yes I will tell you what it says and I will agree with it. If you don't so be it, but I will not change my mind no matter how many people tell me other wise. I have a gay friend and I love him to death and no i am not homophobic at all.If you do not like what I believe in do not read my posts on this subject. Sorry for the harsh tone and I dont mean to be rude.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

I think it appalling when people of a religion expect others to live by their moral code. Essentially what you would like is the Christian version of Sharia law. I have a lot of Muslim friends from all over the world and none of them think it's right to force their beliefs on others - that extreme element sadly seems more prevalent among American Christians. 

I'm very glad most of us in Australia (and more of us every day) really don't give a toss about religion. I'm not interested in having my immortal soul saved as I don't believe I have one, and I reserve the right to have my own beliefs respected. Religion, in my eyes, has always been a restrictor of progress. Practice what you wish and no one should stop you, but a country is limited that bases legal decisions on what some old book (whichever book that might be) with medieval attitudes decides is "sinful" or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Faceman said:


> It is debatable by you, but not for everyone. To 65 million Catholics in the US, by far the largest religious group, marriage is a holy sacrament. If you don't know what a Catholic sacrament is, google it. And to the vast majority of the 30 million Baptists, 12 million Methodists, 8 million Lutherans, 4 million Presbyterians, and so on, it is indeed a "holy matrimony".
> 
> Here's a newsflash...you are in the minority, along with the atheists and agnostics. Here's another newsflash...everyone can't have their way.
> 
> ...



A democracy can be every bit as oppressive as a dictatorship. Majority rule doesnt make it right, or have anything to do with freedom. Thats why we have a Constitution and Bill of rights to keep the majority in check. Go back and read history where the majority thought it was ok to slaughter Jews, enslave blacks and on and on.


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> I think it appalling when people of a religion expect others to live by their moral code. Essentially what you would like is the Christian version of Sharia law. I have a lot of Muslim friends from all over the world and none of them think it's right to force their beliefs on others - that extreme element sadly seems more prevalent among American Christians.
> 
> I'm very glad most of us in Australia (and more of us every day) really don't give a toss about religion. I'm not interested in having my immortal soul saved as I don't believe I have one, and I reserve the right to have my own beliefs respected. Religion, in my eyes, has always been a restrictor of progress. Practice what you wish and no one should stop you, but a country is limited that bases legal decisions on what some old book (whichever book that might be) with medieval attitudes decides is "sinful" or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get it. And I understand it too. But I have to respectfully tell you that if I saw you getting ready to walk off a cliff I would warn you, even if you thought I was violating your "rights" in some way with that warning!


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

Silent one said:


> I get it. And I understand it too. But I have to respectfully tell you that if I saw you getting ready to walk off a cliff I would warn you, even if you thought I was violating your "rights" in some way with that warning!


And if I happened to be a cliffclimber I would respectfully thank you and tell you that I'll be fine, understanding you to be well meaning. However, if you then lobbied to get cliff climbing banned by the local authority, my respect for you and your views would quickly be replaced with anger that you are infringing upon my rights as a human being.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

Nope, not me. Everyone has a right in my eyes to choose their own path. I'm just here to tell what I know, and share the living water with those who will drink it.


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## Fruitloops (Jul 23, 2008)

"8" - a play about the fight for marriage equality: 





I think a certain few people should watch this play, might shed some light on how much your ignorance/hate affects others. 

P.S. - get ready for a much longer text post afterwards in a sec. 

P.P.S. - for those against us and talking about getting flack for sharing your views - ever think there is a reason for that? That maybe your stance is wrong? Hate to break it to you guys, but YOU are in the minority (mostly). For the most part people are starting to become much much more accepting of everyone, regardless of race or sexuality, and thankfully homophobia is becoming less and less tolerated. This is only going to become more widespread so maybe you want to get with times and evolve with the rest of us. Your way of thinking is so often picked on because IT. IS. CRUEL.


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## Fruitloops (Jul 23, 2008)

These threads always make me feel sick to my stomach. I really don't think they should be allowed - would we allow threads debating whether or not people of colour should be allowed basic human rights? It is SO incredibly hurtful to read some of these comments. 

There is so much I want to say but I'm not going to be able to word it without getting banned and it would most likely be pages long. 

We are ALL equal - if EVERYONE is not going to be allowed the same rights, then no one should be allowed them. You can't just pick and chose. 

I have absolutely no respect for people who are against gay/bi/transexual people - to be honest I'm absolutely disgusted that in this day and age people are still so narrow minded and bigoted. It is exactly the same as being racist and should be treated as such - it is absolutely criminal in my eyes. 

Obviously people are going to think what they think, no matter how WRONG it is (yes, WRONG, I'm not going half-cocked here - you cannot say that hating someone and infringing on the rights of a whole group of people just because they love someone who shares the same private parts and it makes poor widdle straight laced you as RIGHT), and fine. Have all the opinions you like, just keep them to YOURSELF. And the second you go from having an opinion to forcing yourself into other peoples lives and preventing lovely upstanding citizens from having a family and tearing others apart by taking away their rights and stripping them of all dignity/equality? By basically saying that they are less human, that they don't DESERVE to live the same as you, with the same rights and safety? BIG BIG BIG problems with that. The fact you have the nerve to talk about us "rubbing it" in your face and that it makes you uncomfortable??? HA HA HA HA - you know what makes me feel uncomfortable, besides opinions such as that? Kids killing themselves because of people like you, hate crimes and violence and vandalism, etc. etc. targeted towards people like me, for something that we do not chose and that we shouldn't HAVE to defend or hide. So yeah... that argument? Doesn't fly with me, sorry. Weaksauce. 

P.S. this has NOTHING to do with religion - not everyone has the same beliefs as you and you should NEVER bring religion into the circle when talking about laws and rights and legalities - they do NOT go hand-in-hand as not everyone subscribes to the same religion, or any (in my case). It is NOT a solid argument when trying to justify discriminating against people and not allowing them the same rights as YOU are so privileged to have, oh-holy-ones of higher morals. 

I'm willing to bet money if the homophobes were forced to walk a mile in our shoes that they would have a big change of heart - if not then there was no hope for them in the first place. 

Harsh? Absolutely. Deserved? YES. Upset by how homophobic and insensitive and callous some people are? VERY. I'm going to avoid these threads from now on as all they do is bring an awful taste to my mouth and upset me.


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## Silent one (Aug 22, 2011)

Well, Fruitloops, you can call me any name you like, but from the tone of your posts it sounds like the only one that's doing the "hating" is you. And that speaks tons of volume to me. I don't condemn others, I just point the way to what God says. And you know what? This is still America, and thank God I still have the right to do so. So no, I won't be silenced, I won't be still. I won't turn away from the truth and I will SHOUT my warnings from the rooftop if need be.

Because I am allowed. Just like you are allowed to post and say what you want. I don't hate you for it. I don't even dislike you, I know you just don't know, and I can't blame you for what you don't know! Be well.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Joe4d said:


> A democracy can be every bit as oppressive as a dictatorship. Majority rule doesnt make it right, or have anything to do with freedom. Thats why we have a Constitution and Bill of rights to keep the majority in check. Go back and read history where the majority thought it was ok to slaughter Jews, enslave blacks and on and on.


Of course it doesn't make it right...obviously. The majority decided on Obama, and only a hard line liberal or socialist that blindly follows the pack would consider that "right" at this point in time. But we have to live with it nonetheless until the majority decides to go in another direction.

And for the record, I'm not aware of any time in history when the majority thought it was OK to slaughter Jews, although db would know better and correct me. If you are referring to Nazi Germany, that was ceretainly not the decision of the majority, although the majority did turn a blind eye...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Fruitloops said:


> "8" - a play about the fight for marriage equality:
> "8": A Play about the Fight for Marriage Equality - YouTube
> 
> I think a certain few people should watch this play, might shed some light on how much your ignorance/hate affects others.
> ...


Why are you so angry? Different people have different opinions, and opinions - by definition - cannot be "wrong". They can be uninformed, but never wrong.

I can't speak for anyone else, and don't want to be grouped with anyone else. If you read MY posts, you will find I oppose homosexual marriage, but I have no ill feelings toward homosexuals, and certainly am not cruel to them. Just because a person opposes homosexual marriage does NOT make them cruel. That statement is both ridiculous and prejudicial. Sorry to tell you, but everyone is not going to agree with you on everything...that doesn't make them somehow evil...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

May I remind all that there is a young 14 YO girl participating in this thread.
My concern is not about the topic.
It is about how we as Adults are setting an example for the young lady to follow. 
It is not what we are saying it is how we are saying it that will be remembered by our young friend.
Now Faceman,allowing same sex marriage does not in any way degrade traditional marriage.
It is merely a word not an institution. It is a legal necessity to allow two unrelated people to become each others next of kin. That is valid in all 50 states and foriegn countries. One signed legal document has that much power. There are over 700 rights that the marriage license conveys to the couple.
Marriage can be performed in a religous setting or a secular one. Both are valid and must be registered with the government.
I have no problem with anyones beliefs that do not wish to perform a ceremony for reasons of theology.
In 1967 Loving versus the State of Virginia the Supreme Court stated that marriage was an inherent right and that Virginia could not discriminate against a white man who married a black woman.
Whatever someone else calls their relationship has no bearing on yours.
It neither degrades it or lessens it.
Marriage does not need to be made stronger nor does it need to be protected. Shalom


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Like it or not, the traditional meaning of marriage is, "one MAN to one WOMAN" and labeling people who do not agree with this as bigoted, homophobic and every other fashionable leftist term available isn't going to change that fact no matter how badly you want it to. 



dbarabians said:


> Now Faceman,allowing same sex marriage does not in any way degrade traditional marriage.
> It is merely a word not an institution. It is a legal necessity to allow two unrelated people to become each others next of kin.


Is marriage "merely a word not an institution" in your faith? Does the Jewish faith allow gay marriages? Can a Rabbi perform same sex marriages?


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## Lockwood (Nov 8, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> ......
> My concern is not about the topic.
> It is about how we as Adults are setting an example for the young lady to follow.
> It is not what we are saying it is how we are saying it that will be remembered by our young friend. .....


That.
Whatever a person's orientation or convictions, being respectful to one another has a much deeper impact than a part (of many many parts) that makes up a person.


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## KissTheRing (Aug 2, 2011)

*Stopped reading after page 8 lol Juss got bored. Wanted to voice my opinion- Srry If Im beating a dead horse

-Food for a Christian's Thought- (Angle of **** vs Bible)
People sin. We lie, fight, kill, and steal- We're born to be bad. God gave us the option to resist sin by following his words/warnings. And after our "heart" is His we must continue to follow his example ect ect ect But when so ever that slip up occurs when must ask forgivness- If being a homosexual is a sin can it not be forgiven? I've been taught that no sin is larger than another. So If I say the Lords name in vain- is it larger than loving my same gender? No. 

Just because somebody is gay doesnt mean christian have to exclude them from their religious group. I Proudly escort my gay friend every Sunday into my church- The people there teem with actual HATE- They hate him for who he is- They hate him to the point where he is in tears walking past the judgmental eyes. But he holds my hand tight- Because he knows God doesnt hate him- Its the ignorant sheepthat do. He says "if being a queer is a sin- Then Imrollingin it, but the day that somebody tellsme MY god hates me for who I am then I hopetoGod, he brings the Same hate Upon them" 

And Juss sayin Didn't people back in the day do about the same thing to black folks? Denied marraige/rights- Treated worst than dogs, people refused to offer them equality... Cant Gay Haters see they are doing the same thing? Sure we bucke that one off to "Well they are human-" OH WAIT!?!?! Arent gays human? Nawww They just cant be- Therefore I do not believe they should have rights DURRRRP.Seriously People.

"And that's all I have to say about That." -Forrest Gump


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Horse Poor, my father was not Jewish.
Orthodox Judaism only recognizes the marriages of a jewish man to a jewish woman. In their eyes and beliefs my mother was not married.
Since my mother married a non jew she had to go to a civil ceremony.
Reform and Conservative Rabbis can perform interfaith marriages and samesex marriages.
It is up to the indvidual Rabbi to decide.
I am a therapist each relationship is different and cannot be compared to another.
Just like indidual actions have no impact on yours unless you allow them, to.
This topic has changed dramatically in the last 10 years.
Today over 50% of the US population favors equal marriage rights for all.
That number will increase with acceptance and understanding.
Shalom


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Interesting! I was told, by a Jew, that the Torah expressly forbids homosexual acts. Are you saying there are different types of Judaism? Like there are different types of Christianity? ie. Catholic, Baptists, Presbyterian, etc? You know, different interpretations of the same book?


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## Gilly (May 28, 2011)

Horse Poor said:


> Is marriage "merely a word not an institution" in your faith? Does the Jewish faith allow gay marriages? Can a Rabbi perform same sex marriages?


Like I said, no-one gets to dibs words. Words cannot be owned by anyone, including institutions such as the Catholic Church. A word is a word is a word.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Horse Poor there are different denominations is Judaism.
Reform which is progressive.
Conservative which is a mixture of progressive and traditional.
Orthodox. which is conservative and has a rigid interpretation of the biblical text.
Ultra Orthodox who rigidly adhere to the biblecal text and usually live seperately from non jews. These are the people you see wearing black hats and the women cover heads and arms.
The Hebrew bible states that homosexuality is an abomination.
It also forbids me to eat with a nonjew.
Commands that I live seperately from a nonjew. Shalom


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## ellygraceee (May 26, 2010)

I just wanna say, that homosexuality is _not_ a sin. It is only a sin _according to certain people's own beliefs_. Saying that homosexuality is a sin is like saying that sour candy is definitely not sour - what I think is sour may not be to you.

Just puttin' that out there. 

I personally believe that everyone should have equal rights, no matter what sexuality, age, race, body shape, etc. 

But either way, some Christians think that my best friend is going to hell for being a lesbian, but that's okay because thanks to premarital sex and mixed fabrics, I'm going to be right there with her (not that I personally believe in heaven/hell, being an eclectic pagan)!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

KissTheRing said:


> *
> I Proudly escort my gay friend every Sunday into my church- The people there teem with actual HATE- They hate him for who he is- They hate him to the point where he is in tears walking past the judgmental eyes.


Why in the world would your gay friend want to be subjected to that? There are plenty of churches that would welcome him with open arms. If your friend is going there, is he to try to force his belief system on somebody else?

There is no way that someone that feels like the target of hate can be in a church to truly worship and connect with the congregational worship.

Churches actually do have a legal right to decide who can attend their church. It is legally, morally, and ethically a private club that can be and is controlled by its members or larger church governing body. No adult is forced to go to church in the free world. If I don't like the way a particular church acts, I don't go.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

^

Yes. While I do not think that a church should encourage homosexuality due to the fact that it is a sin, we should not turn our hate towards them. Our church is southern baptist by definition, and while we will, if asked, _tell_ you that homosexuality is a sin, and show you exactly why and how, we will NOT discriminate against you. My youth pastor has told us time and time again that he welcomes homosexuals with open arms into our group, and we as a youth group body welcome them as well. Our pastor and congregation feel the same way. If we will take in a former drug addict or a teenaged mom, why would we not take in and shelter someone who has become lost?

Yes, if you were a homosexual and you walked into my church, at some point you would be asked about your beliefs about homosexuality. But we would not make you feel excluded. We would not hate you. :/


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Endiku, it sounds like a church that actually follows the teachings of Christ. 
"Love one another."


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## KissTheRing (Aug 2, 2011)

He comes with me because of his belief in God- He is too scared to walk into a different church without me- Though I would go where ever he would choose to b/c I stand by him no matter what.
My church is wrong for their actions


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm going to turn discussion in a little different direction (not ****/heterosexual)...

So we are talking about equal rights and benefits here... Now if someone wants to have 3 wives and those women don't mind than should it be legal as well (with all benefits and rights of course)? Or, other way around, if I want to have 3 husbands _legally_? Because then it would be fair in my eyes to have same rights as just a couple.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Kiss the Ring I fully support a persons right to live their own lives openly.
You and your friend need to find another place to worship IMO.
People who continually subject themselves to hostilite stares and comments that they can avoid very easily are making a bold statement.
If you and your friend were going to the grocery store, public school, public park, etc. You would be challenging soceities norms and standards.
Basically standing up for his rights and humanity.
Your presence at a house of worship however is a different matter.
Religion is a very personal thing and it is private.
The statement that you are making now is that not only are the people wrong but so is their religion, their bible, preacher, and their interpretation ob ahigher power.
This IMO is flaunting his sexuality and doing so in a very passive aggressive manner. You ae placing not only your friend in a bad position but also the members of the church.
Your "protesting " the beliefs of the church will only harden the beliefs of those members already hostile to your friend.
There are places of worship that your friend will be welcome. 
Find one. Shalom


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Val, I have no issue with polygamy, polyandry, or polyamory as long as all participants are consenting adults. I draw the line at children or forcing someone into a lifestyle to which they object.


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## redpony (Apr 17, 2012)

^^^ I agree with speed completely!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Val, I have no issue with polygamy, polyandry, or polyamory as long as all participants are consenting adults.


Susan, it's not so much of an issue of who (or how many :wink: ) you live with. I'm more interested to look at it from the economical and political prospective (because some politicians clearly use, say, gay marriage as a card to play on table). As well as (as you said) forcing someone into a lifestyle they object to.


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## BubblesBlue (Jun 29, 2010)

In my perfect world, everyone would be Bi.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

As Christians it's not our job to judge the unsaved. But to love them and at least warn them of the truth. We would welcome a gay person into our church. 

However, and this is something a lot of churches miss, according to the Bible we are not to accept a Christian just happily living in sin with no attempt to change. If we notice another Christian has sin that they are not dealing with we are to go to them and talk to them about it. But if no matter who talks to them about it and they are not willing to change even though it can be clearly seen in scripture they are in sin then we are not to associate with them.

This is probably so they don't teach others their ways and so they don't give Christianity a bad name by professing the faith then not living it out.

But again, being gay is not a sin, it's not something you can help. Although I do believe God can transform people if they are willing. It's the lifestyle. 

It's one of many sins, and they should ALL be treated the same (by the church, obviously the law has to take action with sins some sins that affect others).

And of course everyone sins, but Christians are not to just happily allow it to be a normal part of their lives.

PS When I say "sin" I'm saying all this according to the Bible and my religion. And of course I would expect my church to believe the same about that.


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

And that's Christians. A non professing Christian would be welcomed in our church even while living in sin (so long as it was not truly harmful to others) because why should we expect them to live by our standards without a cause? They have to learn the whats and whys so they can "count the costs" before making any decisions or anything.


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## BubblesBlue (Jun 29, 2010)

This is why I choose to be an agnostic theist. No I am *not* an Atheist, before you people jump down my throats for that.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

BubblesBlue said:


> In my perfect world, everyone would be Bi.


Nah...as strong as my opinions are, as much as I voice my opinions on issues, as much as I know my way is the best way (haha) and know that people will eventually come to their senses and believe as I do (haha again), the world would be very boring if everyone was the same and we all believed in the same things. I mean, come on - if dbarabians were a Christian instead of a Jew, a conservative instead of a liberal, had a real job instead of being a bleeding heart do-gooder, had an IQ 100 points or so higher, was better looking, thought logically instead of emotionally, and saw the world as it really was, we would be just alike and have nothing to talk about other than the weather - that would spoil all my fun...:rofl:


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

As far as going to a church that hates gay people and taking a gay person along, I think that this is wrong. It is just flaunting his sexuality in their faces. If you do not believe that a particular place of worship is teaching the truth, then how can you participate?

As to polygamy, it is one thing to allow people to do it. It is entirely another thing to force a company to put multiple wives on a man's insurance. The benefits would destroy small companies unless we just throw out the whole private insurance thing and do socialized medicine.

As to wanting three husbands, OMG.
3 sets of dirty socks on the floor,
3 men that will not pitch in and do their part,
3 men trying to make my decisions and telling me what to do,
and worse of all
3 mother-in-laws!

No thank you.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

OK Faceman. I call your bluff.
Post a picture. Prove that you are better looking than dbarabians.
Let's see if a liberal will win.........


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Celeste said:


> OK Faceman. I call your bluff.
> Post a picture. Prove that you are better looking than dbarabians.
> Let's see if a liberal will win.........


I'm substantially older than he is - he can go first so I know what vintage picture to post...:lol:


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Not fair. You gotta both post recent pictures. Who says some of us don't like older vintage anyway?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My father, whom I mentioned was a wise and kindly, well educated ordained minister was called upon to assist a church that had become divided over allowing homosexuals into the ministry. My father delivered a sermon to a now reduced congregation that knocked their socks off. In closing he asked the congregation if we were truly christian by denying these people a place in the church. He sent them home with something to think about. Several weeks later he was again requested to return to the church so the other half could hear his sermon. It was wonderful to learn the church had come together again and welcomed gays in the ministry and would welcome them in church.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

Celeste said:


> OK Faceman. I call your bluff.
> Post a picture. Prove that you are better looking than dbarabians.
> Let's see if a liberal will win.........


I saw Faceman's Pic a few years ago, may I age as well one day 



.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Celeste said:


> Not fair. You gotta both post recent pictures. Who says some of us don't like older vintage anyway?


OK, here is an older vintage - this was when I was 3 or 4, not long before I got my first pony...











And the Appy weanling on the right was my first pony...


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

The biggest thing about gay marriage is that "Marriage" has more bennefits than a "Cival Union". Gay people just want to be equal and have the same bennefits.

I am okay with people not agreeing with me... But I dont want them TELLING me to do something, or I am doing something wrong in my life.

Just the other day, I was walking around town, just walking down the street, holding my girlfriends hand and someone started calling out "******!"

You can't even imagine how I felt... So embarresed! Ashamed! I wanted to go home and cry  And yes I have had suicidal thoughts because of other people.. But my girlfriend squezzed my hand and smiled at me and said its okay... I almost cried because of the reliefe I got from 1 person! Just one saying everything is okay  

I am still sensitive on the topic because a lot of people around me don't approve of me having a girlfriend... My own mother hates it... 

Think about when non-horse people say all horse people are cruel and horrible... It makes you mad and not matter how much explaining you do, you can't make them stupid people understand! Some people you can educate... Now I just save my breath and walk away.

So just for people who don't agree with Homosexuality... Please be respectful! And polite.. It is okay to voice your oppinion but please don't say we are not human, that we do not deserve the same rights or to get married so we can be equal and have the same bennefits that Heterosexual people get to have. 

And for people that are okay with Homosexuals, Thanks you  Your support means a lot to me and others  And I do believe one day all homophobia will be gone.

I also agree with the public displays of affection... I love to see people holding hands and giving small kisses, it just shows there is still love on this earth  But I don't agree with inappropreit touching or making out in public. Also... religion gets brought up in almost every topic, but please try to leave it out as it does't have anything to do with the OP question.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman I will bow to your challenge.
You look like Alfalfa from the Little Rascals with better hair of course.
I laughed at your earlier post about being a bleeding heart liberal.
The first time I have laughed in a few days. Thanks
I am impressed with the lack of hostility in this discussion.
RM if you want someone to accept you as you are ,and you should, you must also accept them. Even their negative beliefs about you.
Religion can be used to defend and condemn either side of this discussion.
It should never be used in hate though.
RM conduct yourself with pride and respect that will sway the beliefs of others more than anything else.
It is hard to discriminate against someone you know and like.
Be the change that you want to be in the world. Then pass it on. Shalom


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

dbarabians, that picture is going to be a hard act to follow. faceman was a cute little devil. 

RM, I am sorry that people suck.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Okay, what rights, exactly, do people not have? I am assuming these are "people" we are talking about, correct? Or, is "gay" a species?


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

i believe that civil marriage, asside for offering an equal stand in front of society as for straight couples, also offers certain rights.
I am not sure what's the deal with your medical system in US, ours in Romania is very different, but there is something about gay partners not being able to cover one for the other certain medical costs with the insurance. And I guess that is the case with the spouses from a straight couple marriage.

In my country, if they would get the right to get married, they could, for example:
- legally adopt children
- legally obtain a loan based on both incomes (impossible if you are not married, in here)
- legally leave something for their life partner as heir / heiress, if they pass away. You can even if you ar not married, but it's very hairy, usually relatives of 1st , 2nd degree jump in, get a lawyer, claim the deceased was crazy and the money / whatever it is in the will should be theirs, etc.

I can't think right now of other economic / social marriage benefits. I'm sure there's more after all, I am happily married LOL 
But anyways, the idea is that if we allow gay people to get married, their life quality would improve. And even ours, indirectly. More families, more incomes, more loans, more stability, more kids adopted....less drama...


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## srh1 (Jun 3, 2012)

So... what's the difference between civil union and marriage, legally?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Civil Unions do not have the same prestige as marriage and do not automatically award the rights that a marriage does.
Civil unions are not accepted anywhere but the cities, states, that recognize them. they are not valid anywhere else. Shalom


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Missy May said:


> Okay, what rights, exactly, do people not have?


Benefits as a spouse (insurance, tax return, etc.). 

I do support all-states-wide civil union, because in case of "divorce" or death the partner should have same rights as spouse IMO, and be protected. (inaclick, gay couples can adopt kids here in US as well as be together on loan, etc.)

However I have double feeling about the benefits (unless the company is willing to provide insurance as its policy). For example, if I live with my mom (we both work, both on loan, pay for utilities, in principle I can adopt a kid if I want etc.). So everything is the same as I'd live with the same-sex partner (besides the sex of course), then why can't I put her on my tax return or get medical insurance through my company as well? How different is it from living with the partner?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A marriage usually takes place in a church meaning with the church's (god's-their term not mine) blessing. A civil takes place in a courthouse or JP's residence. In Canada it remains up to the individual minister, pastor, priest to perform the ceremony. The more open-minded ones will, the other's who are still wrestling with it won't.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Kiss, we have a church in our little berg that vehemently opposes homosexuality. One particular older couplewill quote chapter and verse from the bible. They had a pile of kids. Finally someone questioned them as to whether they would have stopped loving one of their children had it been gay. Thankfully none of them were because he/she would have been hounded with scriptures on the wrongness of it. That is too heavy a burden for a child. Bible punchers (Cdn term) or religious zealots) take too much out of context. The bible is a book of books (like Reader's Digest books) telling a number of stories within one set of covers, It isn't about individual verses or sentences, it's about the message of that particular book. No where in the bible does it speak of treating others badly, in fact it's quite the opposite, to look within and to be kind and forgiving and to try to bring joy to others.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Saddlebag said:


> A marriage usually takes place in a church meaning with the church's (god's-their term not mine) blessing. A civil takes place in a courthouse or JP's residence.


Is it a Canadian definition? I was married in a courthouse, but it's a marriage (not "civil union" as dba described it). Of course with all rights and benefits (which I don't use anyway  ) as if I'd have it in church.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Is it a Canadian definition? I was married in a courthouse, but it's a marriage (not "civil union" as dba described it). Of course with all rights and benefits (which I don't use anyway  ) as if I'd have it in church.


No, that is not a definition limited to Canada. There is nothing wrong with a courthouse marriage, but that is a civil ceremony here in the US, just as anywhere else. Depending upon one's personal definition, a courthouse marriage is actually a civil union - it is not a holy marriage performed in the presence of, and with the blessing of, God. That is why so many people initially get married at the courthouse and then subsequently have a church marriage. While a civil marriage still encompasses all the "rights" of any marriage, and formalizes the committment of two partners, it does not have the same meaning as a church marriage - assuming of course that one believes in a God to begin with. To the Godless, they of course are one and the same.

There seems to be an attitude here (not necessarily by you - just in general) that "marriage" is nothing more than a legal contract. I feel very sorry for people that view it as nothing more than that. The relationship I have with Mrs. Face is far more than a mere legal contract, and it saddens me that people today are so shallow and limited in their committments that they will never enjoy what a true marriage is. The lack of a full committment, body and soul, is perhaps why the divorce rate is so high and so many people never get married to begin with. It is like haveing a cake without any icing, but I suppose if you have never had icing to begin with, or don't even know what icing is, it really doesn't matter because you don't know what you are missing...


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I didn't read everything, but I've thought for years that there should be civil unions across the board with the same rights in the eyes of the law across the board. However, I don't believe that churches should be forced to marry people that don't adhere to their beliefs and moral codes. IMO that's just as bad as what we have now. 

Face, I particularly agree with your last paragraph. I have a similar viewpoint to yours regarding marriage even though I am not a particularly religious person. Very few of my age group have the same thoughts on marriage, generally it's a legal thing or only in "good times" and not the bad. It seems that many people have forgotten what true commitment is and that's very sad.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Faceman, I think that the states should (and probably do) only have the right to issue what is a civil contract. Only a religious organization has the moral and legal right to call the marriage "holy". That being said, what is wrong with the states issuing legal marriage certificates to any consenting adults that want them? The churches or religious groups can then decide if they are "holy" or not.

For the record, all these concepts are new to me. I never even considered gay marriage until recently as a legitimate concept. Also for the record, I have been in a stable heterosexual marriage for 31 years.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Faceman said:


> No, that is not a definition limited to Canada. There is nothing wrong with a courthouse marriage, but that is a civil ceremony here in the US, just as anywhere else. Depending upon one's personal definition, a courthouse marriage is actually a civil union - it is not a holy marriage performed in the presence of, and with the blessing of, God. That is why so many people initially get married at the courthouse and then subsequently have a church marriage. While a civil marriage still encompasses all the "rights" of any marriage, and formalizes the committment of two partners, it does not have the same meaning as a church marriage - assuming of course that one believes in a God to begin with. To the Godless, they of course are one and the same.
> 
> There seems to be an attitude here (not necessarily by you - just in general) that "marriage" is nothing more than a legal contract. I feel very sorry for people that view it as nothing more than that. The relationship I have with Mrs. Face is far more than a mere legal contract, and it saddens me that people today are so shallow and limited in their committments that they will never enjoy what a true marriage is. The lack of a full committment, body and soul, is perhaps why the divorce rate is so high and so many people never get married to begin with. It is like haveing a cake without any icing, but I suppose if you have never had icing to begin with, or don't even know what icing is, it really doesn't matter because you don't know what you are missing...


Thanks for explaining, FM! 

P.S. I don't think one should marry just to have benefits or "legal contract" (especially these days when people can work and achieve a lot independently of the gender or race). Marriage is much more than that in my eyes, and I do believe one can have a full commitment whether both people are religious or not.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Celeste said:


> Faceman, I think that the states should (and probably do) only have the right to issue what is a civil contract. Only a religious organization has the moral and legal right to call the marriage "holy". That being said, what is wrong with the states issuing legal marriage certificates to any consenting adults that want them? The churches or religious groups can then decide if they are "holy" or not.
> 
> For the record, all these concepts are new to me. I never even considered gay marriage until recently as a legitimate concept. Also for the record, I have been in a stable heterosexual marriage for 31 years.


The problem is, if it is left up to the states, I'm not sure they all would go ahead and institute civil unions for homosexuals. Many of the more conservative states have passed laws that are quite frankly anti-homosexual - particularly in the area of the adoption of children by homosexuals. I would have nothing against a federal discriminatory law that mandates civil unions between homosexuals, and requires the same BASIC rights enjoyed by heterosexual marriages. I would, though, oppose using the term "marriage".

As to your last paragraph, homosexual unions should be a concept we all endorse - there may be disagreement on the "marriage" issue, but there is no justification for withholding rights from a homosexual couple that are enjoyed by a heterosexual couple. The fact that I, and others, consider homosexuality morally wrong should not be an issue when it comes to people's rights. I consider adultery and promiscuity morally wrong too, but that doesn't meanpeople that engage in those vices should be treated like second class citizens.

As a sidebar, I will repeat an opinion I stated earlier - whether it is homosexuals or heterosexuals, it is all the same to me - I do not support certain rights, such as insurance and social security, to couples that are not formally and legally bound, and that includes unmarried heterosexual couples, no matter how long they have lived together. I do not believe it is right to grant a couple the benefits associated with a legal committment if they have not made that committment. Just my little quirk...


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Benefits as a spouse (insurance, tax return, etc.).
> 
> I do support all-states-wide civil union, because in case of "divorce" or death the partner should have same rights as spouse IMO, and be protected. (inaclick, gay couples can adopt kids here in US as well as be together on loan, etc.)
> 
> However I have double feeling about the benefits (unless the company is willing to provide insurance as its policy). For example, if I live with my mom (we both work, both on loan, pay for utilities, in principle I can adopt a kid if I want etc.). So everything is the same as I'd live with the same-sex partner (besides the sex of course), then why can't I put her on my tax return or get medical insurance through my company as well? How different is it from living with the partner?


Good point, Kitten!

I can't really find a "right" in the US that a gay man or woman is denied. Wanting "special rights" is not that same as being denied rights.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Missy May said:


> Good point, Kitten!
> 
> I can't really find a "right" in the US that a gay man or woman is denied. Wanting "special rights" is not that same as being denied rights.


Well, I will give you two (which I mentioned above) - insurance, and social security...I am speaking of couples here, of course.

As far as basic rights, I agree with you 100%. In fact, due to homosexuals being included in the "protected groups", homosexuals in many cases have far more rights than I do as a white, anglo saxon protestant male...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Faceman said:


> In fact, due to homosexuals being included in the "protected groups", homosexuals in many cases have far more rights than I do as a white, anglo saxon protestant male...


Not to open a can of worms, but what do you mean by "protected groups"? I know if you are a minority (by race or gender) you can have some privileges, but I've never heard the sexual orientation is also the "minority" thing now. 

I do agree about insurance etc. though. I know several people who are "married" just to have insurance through wife or husband, don't even live together. But then how would you prove you have a real marriage, not a fake one (can't imagine a process like the one in immigration  ).


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

Faceman said:


> The problem is, if it is left up to the states, I'm not sure they all would go ahead and institute civil unions for homosexuals. Many of the more conservative states have passed laws that are quite frankly anti-homosexual - particularly in the area of the adoption of children by homosexuals. I would have nothing against a federal discriminatory law that mandates civil unions between homosexuals, and requires the same BASIC rights enjoyed by heterosexual marriages. I would, though, oppose using the term "marriage".
> 
> As to your last paragraph, homosexual unions should be a concept we all endorse - there may be disagreement on the "marriage" issue, but there is no justification for withholding rights from a homosexual couple that are enjoyed by a heterosexual couple. The fact that I, and others, consider homosexuality morally wrong should not be an issue when it comes to people's rights. I consider adultery and promiscuity morally wrong too, but that doesn't meanpeople that engage in those vices should be treated like second class citizens.
> 
> As a sidebar, I will repeat an opinion I stated earlier - whether it is homosexuals or heterosexuals, it is all the same to me - I do not support certain rights, such as insurance and social security, to couples that are not formally and legally bound, and that includes unmarried heterosexual couples, no matter how long they have lived together. I do not believe it is right to grant a couple the benefits associated with a legal committment if they have not made that committment. Just my little quirk...



Faceman it seems like you and I are on the same page. 

Marriage to me IS more than just legal rights. To take it down to that level, to me, is offensive. I consider my marriage to my husband to be much more than a tax write off and social security (which we probably won't ever see the benefit of anyways). My marriage is much deeper than that. 

However, I do not think withholding those rights to tax write offs and other benefits to gay couples, who have professed their relationship, is right. It is wrong to do so. Your right to things provided by the government shouldn't be based on your orientation. 

I truly believe the reason religions so strongly oppose the "marriage" or gays is because it goes directly against what THEIR beliefs are. To them, marriage is more than a tax write off, or other benefits. They aren't debating benefits, they are debating MORALS. The Catholic church doesn't recognize courthouse marriages between heterosexuals either, unless the couple gets a go ahead and does an extensive marriage counseling course first, and has a good, legit reason for doing so. I had to get a variance of sorts for my marriage, since my husband is Catholic and I wanted to get married in my protestant church. We had to do the Catholic prep to be recognized in the Catholic church as a married couple. They have a way of doing things, it is completely separate from the legal system. Keep in mind the Catholic church is not only in America, but everywhere, and they aren't gonna change around American laws. Even if the gay "marriage" is passed, they still won't recognize those marriages. 

And while we are on the topic of marriage, to me it is bad enough when someone gets married just for benefits, or when they don't take it seriously, even when they are heterosexual. Look at the celebrities for goodness sake. Marriage in this country has lost its meaning, and it has nothing to do with the gay movement. It has everything to do with people not knowing what commitment and love means. 

Oh and another thing, I know someone mentioned being persecuted or made fun of for being homosexual. I do believe that is wrong. It is not right. But keep in mind that it is not exclusive. Heterosexuals get made fun of, or are given dirty looks as well. Maybe not for the same things, but for other things. Me, I'm pregnant,and young. I'm married, sure, but that still doesn't stop the weird looks and comments I get. I'm treated like an alien sometimes on my campus, even if people don't mean to. Heck one of my doctors (who I don't see anymore) wouldn't even acknowledge my husband when I went for a prenatal appointment, I assume it is because she, like other, believes I got "knocked up" and then married the guy to save face. That stuff isn't true, but people judge me because I got married, and wanted a family a lot earlier than others do.

My point being, people judge. If you think that your alone in this, your not. Somebody, somewhere, will always find something to not like about you. How YOU respond and react is what really matters. When I get those looks, I simply remember who I am and what I stand for, knowing I have someone who loves me to support me. That should be good enough, regardless of what others think.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Just to throw in my own thoughts..

I'm okay with homosexual couples making a union. I think said union should have all the legal perks and pitfalls of marriage. I don't think it should be called marriage. To me, marriage is 1 man and 1 woman. A homosexual couple is not that - so the jar can look the same but just stick a different label on it.

Everyone has a mother and a father. Gender defined terms. One is no less than the other. However, we don't call all parents mother. 

The only problem I have with the gay lifestyle is when it's very overtly sexual. But you know what? I don't like it when heterosexual couples are overtly sexual either. It all screams "haha look at me I'm racy and special and there's nothing you can do about it! Neener neener!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Faceman said:


> Well, I will give you two (which I mentioned above) - insurance, and social security...I am speaking of couples here, of course.
> 
> As far as basic rights, I agree with you 100%. In fact, due to homosexuals being included in the "protected groups", homosexuals in many cases have far more rights than I do as a white, anglo saxon protestant male...


Well, I see it slightly differently. A gay man can't be put under his gay partner's insurance, and a heterosexual man can't be put under his roomie's, either. Same, same. Ditto, SS. It is rights _in addition_ to those that other's have that they are after. 

What two consenting adult's sexual habits or preferences are - I could care a less....so long as I, or anyone, am not adversely affected by or have to hear about any of it. But, to bad for me...I don't have the right to not be offended (unlike gays) b/c - I, like you, am not a member of the "more equal" group.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Minorities including homosexuals are not asking for special rights.
They are asking for equal rights and protection under the law.
Until the Federal Government passes the ENDA that will protect Gays from being fired soley because they are Gay. They lack this protection.
I cannot fire an employee for being an ethnic or religous mionority.
Not only is it immoral it is illegal under Federal Law.
If we continue to call unions cerified by the states marriage then we need to call all unions marriage.
Same sex couples are denied the rights by State and Federal governments that stratight married couples are due.
Same sex couples must navigate legal avenues to be afforded the same rights. That is the essence of discrimination. By doing so the state is saying certain relationships are Valid while others are not.
Even then those legal matters may be challenged in court.
I know of several Couples where one died of AIDS with a will awarding their partner the entire estate. Familiy members of the deceased then went to court and had that will thrown out.
Lesbians have been denied visitation in emergency rooms as their partners lay dieing.
If that happened to one straight couple the laws would be changed overnight.
By the way if , I fully believe that Faceman and others would not allow anyone to be harrassed or threatened in their presence.
Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Minorities including homosexuals are not asking for special rights.
> They are asking for equal rights and protection under the law.
> Until the Federal Government passes the ENDA that will protect Gays from being fired soley because they are Gay. They lack this protection.
> I cannot fire an employee for being an ethnic or religous mionority.
> ...


Db, honestly, w/o citing court rulings one can say a ruling was made as a result of "anything". Wills are quite difficult to overturn, so I kind of doubt one was thrown out on the basis of sexual preference. 

Well, gasp, so have "boyfriends" and "girlfriends" of "straight couples" been denied visitation in emergency rooms. But not spouses _or_ "civil union" partners.

And, I have _never_ heard of anyone that was fired b/c they were gay. How would the employer know? I don't make a habit of wearing my heterosexual-ness out on my sleeve, t-shirt, etc.,. If a man made a pass at me in the work place, it wouldn't sit well w me...triple ditto for a woman. So, WHAT rights do they need "in addition" to those the rest of us "less equal" folks enjoy????


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Not to open a can of worms, but what do you mean by "protected groups"? I know if you are a minority (by race or gender) you can have some privileges, but I've never heard the sexual orientation is also the "minority" thing now.


I stand corrected - my mistake. Sexual preference/orientation is NOT one of the protected groups. Having worked for the federal government, I should have those groups committed to memory, but inadvertantly included sexual orientation. Probably the reason I did is while I was with SBA, a homosexual activist, Fred Hochberg, was appointed Deputy Administrator of SBA. He instituted some initiatives at the agency to target homosexuals to try to increase the amount of SBA assistance that was being provided. As the SBA Public Affairs Officer for Arkansas, I had to shuttle him around for his interviews and photo ops whenever he came to Little Rock. For a couple of years I was pretty caught up in trying to serve the homosexual community as best I could, so I tend to think of them as a priviledged group when it comes to federal government assistance, but after reviewing the various CFR regs, as I said, I stand corrected...


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## barrelrunner (Jul 3, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> May I remind all that there is a young 14 YO girl participating in this thread.
> 
> But i bet that you would not care about her being young if she believed what you believed and didnt voice her opinion. Life experiances dont always chance a religion or believes so please do not think she does not know what she is talking about because she is young.
> Personally I think this thread is based on everyones personal beliefs and we all have diffrent ones.We all should respect everyones opinions and agree to disagree.


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## barrelrunner (Jul 3, 2012)

> May I remind all that there is a young 14 YO girl participating in this thread.


But, I bet that if she believed what you believed you would not point that out to make her sound like she does not know what she is talking about.Indeed maybe she does. She has the same opinion as many others and you should not make it out to be like what she says is less important than you and everyone else. Being older does not always change believes.It also make your opinion more important than hers. Personally I think this thread is more pointed toward a very iffy topic. Over all lets agree to disagree and respect everyone while doing so.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> Minorities including homosexuals are not asking for special rights.
> They are asking for equal rights and protection under the law.


dba, I have to disagree with you (and I'm talking about minorities based on gender and race now, NOT orientation (because I don't know about the latter)). Almost any company asks about your gender and race, and when there is a hiring process going on the minorities get "extra points". Same happens when you apply to the college. Moreover the "minority-owned" companies have privileges as well when it comes to contracts etc. And personally I don't think it's fair (and I'm speaking as a (strong) minority by gender in my field of education): I don't think selection should be made based on gender or race, but rather on how you fit in and some other parameters.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Barrel runner It was not the discussion I had a problem with.
It was the tone of the discussion and the way the debate was turning into a name calling session of put downs.
My point was that as adults we will set the example for her.
We did not need to personalize it.
A few people did address her directly rather pointedly I might add.
As a therapist I can control a debate and from experience know when to steer it into a more positive direction.
As I posted it will not be what we say that she will remember as much as how we say it.
adults do still have the responsibility of leading by example. 
Shalom


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May i know of what I speak.
Several judges have plainly stated that the wills were overturned due to homosexual unions being immoral and not legal. Therefore ruling for the family.
If you do no live in a state or city that does recognize same sex unions or marriages then visitation at hospitals is not allowed due to next of kin.
That is a fact.
Those 2 examples are of how gays and lesbians are discriminated against by states not recognizing civil unions and marraiges peformed elsewhere.
Don't believe me use your computer and Google some cases.
Once again if you do not live in a city or state that prohibits employment discrimination due to Sexual orientation then Gays and lesbians are not protected.
Anyone who does not believe that any minority can still face discrimination you need to open your eyes. Shalom


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Missy May i know of what I speak.
> Several judges have plainly stated that the wills were overturned due to homosexual unions being immoral and not legal. Therefore ruling for the family.
> If you do no live in a state or city that does recognize same sex unions or marriages then visitation at hospitals is not allowed due to next of kin.
> That is a fact.
> ...


Db, although our justice system is all but gone, judges do not have the authority to make up laws from the bench. Immoral lifestyles of the deceased is not included in laws that govern wills. Now, there are such things as happy little settlement courts where almost anything goes, your rights are not considered...and which were pushed heavily by "progressives". Settlement agreements are NOT the same as an actual court ruling. 

If a judge makes a ruling for which there is no known law, it can be appealed. It is not just gay people that might be the victom of an incompetent judge, in fact statistically they would be far less likely to be a victom. So, again, they are asking for "more equal" rights....i.e., to be protected from incompetent judges, whereas the rest of us will just have to suffer.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Missy May the problem with overturning a gay couples will is that a judge can then overturn yours or mine.
Our courts are run and presided over by Judges that are elected or appointed to the bench for political reasons.
Judges interpret the law and pass judgement based on their own opinions.
If you have a judge that favors same sex marriage then your chances of winning a case about same sex marriage is good.
Look at California. A gay judge overturned their law. It is now headed to the Supreme Court. Where it stands a good chance of being defeated.
Remember in 2003 Kennedy voted to overturn anti sodomy laws in all 50 states. The Defense of Marriage Act may become history.
The Supreme Court has the power to do just that. Shalom


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## The Northwest Cowgirl (May 16, 2012)

Please don't get rude, as I said in my first post.
I am perfectly fine with hearing peoples opinions, but you don't have to be a jerk about it. I am just trying to share my opinion and something I thought had a lot of truth in it.


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