# Seedy Toe/White Line Disease



## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

i havnt heard much of white line disease (only of one or two horses that had it, but not much more than that they had it). so i dont really know much about it, i would have to look it up. 

as far as wall separation goes, thats not because of the farrier, though if there was wall separation he SHOULD have seen it and addressed it immediately. so in that respect, i would be looking for a new one!

if his sole was not dished out enough, especially if it was proud, that will cause lameness. but mostly that will be bruising/tenderness. how is he since she trimmed it down? (going to look up more on white line now)

just looked it up. here is a GREAT site with some info. PS: Rusty Freeman is a blacksmith i do know personally, so i know these are actually blacksmiths giving this info
http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/whitelinedisease/whitelinediseaseindex.htm


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't really know anything about it either. I asked her if it was a farrier issue, and she said yes. A few places I have read said it is from an imbalanced hoof which maybe they mean conformationally? 
You know, I honestly can't tell the differance. She said that he looked very sore on both front feet, but I could only feel it. Earlier on the week, it seemed worse as he was head bobbing a bit, but he didn't do that when I trotted him before or after. I could be missing something though. Under saddle it feels horrible. 

As far as the seedy toe thing, all of the info I can find online is that it is chipping in the hoofwall and visible when looking at the foot on the ground. What she showed me was small holes on the sole of his hoof near the toe where she said gravel could get in there which would obviously be a bad deal.

Do you agree that shoeing is the right solution? 

(Im reading the page you sent me, hopefully I will come out knowing whats going on!)


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Hmm. Just read some more. 

From the website, it lists symptoms as : 

Microorganisms do not ordinarily attack healthy hoof tissue. They usually gain entry via a hoof crack or fissure at the white line. Other predisposing factors include:

acute trauma
abscess formation that introduces infection
a case of laminitis that causes tears in the stratum medium
sole or toe bruising near the white line where dried blood provides growth nutrients for the causative organism
flexor deformities in foals that have resulted in club foot with severe toe bruising; long toe/no heel syndrome in which an excessively long toe with a stretched white line has weakened the bond between the medullary cells and constant exposure to manure and urine.

The only one that I can see there is the seperation 
(Diesels foot looks similar to this picture, but as far as I can tell, the sole isn't as concave)









Apparently it's a fungus too? That makes me think there should be something removed/treated? (Of course, I am neither vet nor farrier). He is on dry-lot with turn out a few hours a day on grass until we get the pastures completed and not in any mud or wet...


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

i wish i was of more help but since i dont know much about it, im no good. but ya know if Rusty Freeman is around tomorrow i will stop in his shop and ask him about it and see what he has to say.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks. 
I really need to start learning about these sorts of thing before they plague my horse *sigh* 

This summer has not been a good one when it comes to my horse!


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

The sole on a barefoot horse should NOT be dished out in general. It will mostly shed naturally. The slight concavity needs to be grown, not carved like a sculpture.

Wall separation and white line disease are generally caused by poor maintenance/trimming. The wall will begin to flare and separate if pressure is put on the wall by not being trimmed enough/properly/rolled... whatever. Once the wall starts to pull away, dirt, bacteria and nasties in general can get in there and so begins the white line deterioration.

Yes, your farriers on the line here to some degree, but it sounds like you haven't had much luck with farriers and consistency makes a big, BIG difference. Remember that hoof problems need to *grow* out and that can take up to a year depending on the horse. So, if everyone's doing something different and it's not on a regular schedule you've got a battle on your hands that you don't need.

Cure? Get a new farrier and have him/her out at least every 10 days I'd say for a month. Then re-evaluate and decide how often (s)he needs to come after that. Daily care and cleaning. You've got to keep the dirt out of there. Use a very stiff bristle brush, even from the dollar store. Shoes will NOT fix it. They will only make yet another hole and ledge for the nasties to sit in. You might consider boots if he is sore and you can apply meds in the boots as well.

I don't know that I would ever have a vet trim my horses feet. I guess if I trust my vet more than my farrier and I'm stuck, well then I would.

And, no, your horse wouldn't necessarily have been lame when the farrier left. This takes a bit of time to develop, though not just 4 weeks, so your farrier did miss the call there I'd say.

Looking forward to pics. Do a shot like the sample posted and also one from the side and front on a level clean area.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

but if a hoof is not dished out at all, and the sole is hitting before the rest of the foot, this will cause problems, or no? i would assume some bruising and tenderfootedness (boy is that even a word?)?

i dont know much about barefoot horses as all of mine wear shoes due to being racehorses, and the only one without is my broodmare, who does not do much of any work aside from the occational 15min ride (walk)


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Thank you northern mama! 
I have a farrier coming out to look at him soon (He will call me back as soon as he knows when). 
His feet never had that seperation until the last trim, and they have just gone down hill since then so hopefully I can work with this guy and stick with it. 

Could I leave boots on him while turned out? I want to make sure no dirt gets stuck up in these holes and I was thinking boots may be the way to do it. 
I will get pictures up ASAP.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Oops, didnt see your reply. 

I should of took pictures before she took a hoof knife to him. 
His foot is not normally convex, but she pointed out that a bit towards his toe was proud. (I looked at his feet and didn't notice it. then again I am not a farrier) and shaved that away. (Probably about a 1/4 of an inch long piece and then a bit around his toe. 

I think I'm learning that when he comes up sore, Im going to call a farrier before I go to the vet :/


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## 7Ponies (May 21, 2009)

We see a lot of white line disease where I live, and generally it is caused by poor maintenance (cleaning the foot out, not just farrier) and our crappy humid, hot conditions that lead to all kinds of fungus growth. 

The best stuff to cure it is the purple stuff (can't think of the name). Be vigiliant in cleaning the hoof out, use a brush and even a farriers nail to get up in the crevice, then apply the purple stuff.

My horses are all barefoot, even when we've had seedy toe, it has cleared up quickly.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

7Ponies said:


> The best stuff to cure it is the purple stuff (can't think of the name).


thrush buster. that stuff if AMAZING. it clears it up FAST without drying the foot to hell


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

AlmagroN said:


> but if a hoof is not dished out at all, and the sole is hitting before the rest of the foot, this will cause problems, or no? i would assume some bruising and tenderfootedness (boy is that even a word?)?
> 
> i dont know much about barefoot horses as all of mine wear shoes due to being racehorses, and the only one without is my broodmare, who does not do much of any work aside from the occational 15min ride (walk)


The sole will touch the ground at the toe especially. So do the walls, but the foot falls heel first and "rolls" forward until full pick-up. The sole will shed usually on its own as needed, but it has to build up a callus. That's why if you take shoes off a horse it will likely be a bit ouchy because the sole has not been subjected to any wear and is soft. If the full weight is bearing on the walls only, then the walls will flare, break off, crack... 

Hope that explains it well enough. I usually know what I mean, but don't always explain so well. :lol:


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

7Ponies said:


> We see a lot of white line disease where I live, and generally it is caused by poor maintenance (cleaning the foot out, not just farrier) and our crappy humid, hot conditions that lead to all kinds of fungus growth.
> 
> The best stuff to cure it is the purple stuff (can't think of the name). Be vigiliant in cleaning the hoof out, use a brush and even a farriers nail to get up in the crevice, then apply the purple stuff.
> 
> My horses are all barefoot, even when we've had seedy toe, it has cleared up quickly.


7Ponies -- I agree with the maintenance bit for sure, but if the farrier was doing the job right and often enough, there wouldn't be a chance for dirt to get in the white line. The white line should be tight always. WLD is generally said to be caused by a fungus, but it's actually more like the deterioration of the white line allowed the fungus in and gave a great home for it to live and grow in. The problem starts BEFORE the fungus ever arrives.


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## 7Ponies (May 21, 2009)

Our farrier is a good farrier, that is not the issue. Problem is, these horses have been boarded at my barn, and basically left there. Owners never come out. I don't pick feet on my boarders horses, sorry. That's when they develop white line... and I'm usually the one who clears it up... but at a pretty hefty expense to the horse owner. I get a bit ticked off at people who don't come take care of their horses, so I charge a good bit when I'm the one doctoring them.

And, until you've lived in Charleston and deal with the heat and humidity, you have no idea of the ick it causes. I don't know anyone (human) who hasn't battled toe nail fungus (human). The farrier's not doing the human's feet, LOL!!!  Yes, it really does cause white line, if left to do so.

Yes, Thrush Buster! That's the name, it's great stuff. But it really stains your fingers/hands. I've learned my lesson, I now apply it wearing latex gloves!!


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Well, I guess it's the "often enough" part then that isn't working, 7Ponies. I was referring to the farrier, but I guess owners too. Funny though, I wouldn't have thought it mattered that much. If the hoof is working properly it should "self-clean". I wonder if a more humid environment needs a different style of trim... 

I read about some wild horses that live in marshy areas, nothing hard around at all and yet their hooves never grow too long. 

Interesting.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Having thought some more about this -- I still think that it amounts to proper trimming care. Perhaps in very moist environments some horses need to be trimmed more often. I know my girls are done every two weeks, but that's because I can and I understand that that is not doable for many people. 

Barefoothooves -- if you're out there, do you have any opinion on this? We miss you, you know.


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## dashygirl (Nov 21, 2006)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Apparently it's a fungus too? That makes me think there should be something removed/treated?


Yes it is a fungus and needs to be treated as one. I had a mare with white line once and we had to soak her feet in Epsom salts for several weeks.



*White Line Disease - What can I do?*



*Owner* - conscientious preventive action
*Owner and Farrier* - careful observation of the horse
*Farrier and Vet* - co-ordinated specific treatment _ (see photo case record that follows)_

 
*Preventive Action by the Owner*
The bacteria/fungi are opportunistic, and will enter the foot through the smallest of openings, often invisible to the human eye. Preventive action is a positive first step. As ever, it's no guarantee, but the more you do, the better your chances. 
The following factors can contribute to whiteline disease developing in horses. Some potential problem causers must simply be recognised as risk factors - 



excess damp and humidity - the horse's hoof is hygroscopic _(absorbs moisture)_. A moist hoof expands more readily.
stress after laminitis
the presence of an injury in the hoof

 While others can be avoided by conscientious horse and hoof care - 


long toes on the hoof - causing stress and the possibility of separation at the juncture of hoof wall and sole. I've seen this a number of times as a contributory factor in white line disease.
an excess of inappropriate hoof care products applied to a hoof
poor nutrition, resulting in poor health of the hoof
insufficient stable management - lack of cleanliness


Did your vet not tell you what you need to do in your particular situation to start treatment for the white line?

See this: Treatment of white line disease in horses


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

WL generally only causes lameness in its EXTREME form, or if gravel gets up in there and causes an abscess. Now, a stone bruise could cause some issues, but after a week it should be better.

Where in Montana are you? I'll see if I can find a good barefoot trimmer willing to drive to your location.

But really, this is why I now trim my own. The two barefoot trimmers we have in Central Arkansas that are good trim too much bar, which makes my mare tender. The rest of the farriers do funky pasture trims and take off a LOT of frog and sole, too much for barefoot riding. 

So, I have learned on my own using Jamie Jackson's book, Pete Ramey's book, Pete's web site (Pete Ramey hoof care heals founder in horse’s navicular disease farrier), the web site ironfreehoof.com, the Abrasive Trimming method DVD (LOVE that!), and a few other sources. My horses' feet are healthier and they are more sound than they ever have been!!


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Pictures prior to trim/front shoes: 















































He said that he was trimmed too short. With shoes, he was still favoring his leg, but then the farrier said it may be a muscle pain? 

His feet looked like crap regardless. What do you guys think?


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

He's not trimmed too short, he's way too long and the angles are wrong. No wonder you ended up with a problem. However, with a good trim it won't be a problem for long. 

What do his feet look like now?


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

I agree with Northernmama. I see a bit of flaring which allows greebles access to the white line. Trim the flares so that they are not in ground contact with the outer wall and soak in ACV.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Greebles - :lol::lol: My terminology is about as professional -- Nasties, but I'm switching to greebles now.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

LOL I didn't coin the term. Someone on the Barefoothorsecare list did.  Greebles, Nasties.. How about the Nasty Greebles?


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I didn't have my camera when he came out, but he didn't take much off -- Trimmed off the flares/cracky parts, and put the shoes on. I'll take some pictures once I get into town again of the new feet. 

Im planning on going to horseshoeing school this winter just so I can start to understand what feet are supposed to look like... *Sigh* :[ I feel so neglectful.

What is ACV?


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

ACV is Apple Cider Vinegar

I haven't looked back thru this thread.. Were these pics taken prior to trimming and is this horse now shod?


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Prior to the trimming.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

K, thanks


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

Wow..so I tried to read every post, but basically, I'm going to say that coming out of shoes, (since I see nail holes), you shouldn't be suprised at any seedy toe. You can usually see circles of hoof rot around nail holes when you remove them...the black rings/circles. So, there's your invite to seedy toe/WLD no matter how well shod. THe nails will vibrate from the metal shoes, or the fact that there's a hole driven in, or because shoes are in themselves artificial, extensions of hoof walls ( and excess hoof wall causes flaring but the nails from shoes hold the hoof rigidly in place), however you want to look at it, it causes keratin degeneration around the nails. Perfect for funky stuff to get a head start, and it's driven up high. Plus, the shoe prolongs breakover, which is what causes flaring in a bare hoof-excess wall.

I do see flaring in your pics. Doesn't mean your horse is trimmed short. WHen walls flare that much, the hoof goes "SPLAT" onto the ground, having lost all it's support from the walls. By the way, it can happen in shod horses, the bones inside the hoof bottom out, seeking support from the sole, but never find it, they appear thin soled, but shod hooves, over time, look longer overall. Or you could say the hoof pushes up the leg. But I digress...


The flaring can be caused by fungus/bacteria, or the f/b can set up shop because there is flaring. Doesn't matter which started it all. Hen/egg scenario. So, the hoof went splat, has little/no support from the walls. They aren't helping, so should be beveled to remove them from any weightbearing role until they grow in tight and strong (from the top, 9-12 months average), then let the wall bear some weight when it is ready. In the mean time, the sole is taking on an extra burden. This is also how you build concavity, BTW, the walls have to be strong enough to bear some weight. Until then, you need some padded boots, as that sole is too thin, and working overtime, and will remain so, until you get a nice, tight WL. It's not about being too short, but too long, so you do need those walls beveled. 

Also, soaks/treatments for WL are a good idea. I like Clean Trax or more frequent soaks with ACV. 

Going to shoeing school may not show you how a foot really should look like. They show what a SHOD, MANMADE hoof looks like, which may be the average when all horses are shod, but don't compare to a horse's NATURAL, NORMAL hoof. Just food for thought. However, as a well-rounded part of hoof education, I recommend it, but you have to include some natural hoof care studies to get a more balanced perspective before you form your own idea of what is right.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Jeeze.
So I need to have a farrier bevel his hoof and soak it? How often? 
Does this mean he will be unsound for 9-12 months? 
This lameness occurred a bit after he was trimmed last (shoes pulled) and was sound up until recently. Was the sole just wearing away up until then and finally he started to come up sore, or what? 

I will get more recent pictures asap.


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

Main thing is to have that wall beveled appropriately. I don't see a massive case of WLD. Just know that it won't get any better if the trim isn't improved. 

Is your horse really unsound? Could still be an abscess that's causing the tenderness. The soaks will help. But...to much water can soften a hoof and make it sore, and abscesses will eventually pop on their own, regardless, if the hoof gets enough blood circulation. So...if you skipped soaks, I wouldn't call you a bad horse mom. 

Being flat on soles does make them more sensitive. I recommend boots, truely. They are cheaper in the long run than shoes, and last quiet a while. You only have to use them when your horse is not comfortable on a surface. Also, not all "gimps" are really limping. They can feel a rock, and will shift weight before stepping down hard enough to do damage, much as if you step on a kid's toy in the dark in the hallway, you shift your weight instinctively before you actually puncture your toe. But, if your horse is doing that a lot, then she's too sensitive just yet to go bare all the time. 

Hoof Hardeners don't do much good in most cases. Venice turpentine is really just a varnish that adds a thin layer of "sole" temporarily. It wears off very fast, and doesn't really harm the hoof much, as long as you don't apply to the frog. Hardeners can make the hoof so hard it becomes brittle, like metals do and more apt to break. But, waterlogged is bad, too. Hooves can maintain the moisture level just fine if not over rasped, or forced to stand in water/ poo Moisturizers can trap fungus in, and make it worse, too. Most cracks come from excess moisture and fungus that thrives in it than is ever caused by dryness. The hoof is still part of the body, and it's moiture level is supplied by blood circulation. It's designed to soften when the environment is wet, and if fungus is part of the natural process to shed excess wall that won't wear off in mud, then so be it. (but in domestic horses is a sign that the hoof needs trimming, and dry environment) Hooves get dry and hard in drought to withstand the wear level of dry, hard ground. Dryness is not evil. 

Basically, I see your horse needing boots for a few months when you ride. She can be bare the rest of the time. Maybe forever, but if she was fine before, she can be again. And if it's just an abscess, once it blows out, she'll be fine, and the boots will make her happier in the meantime.


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## angelsridewithus (Sep 7, 2009)

*angelsridewithus*



barefoothooves said:


> Main thing is to have that wall beveled appropriately. I don't see a massive case of WLD. Just know that it won't get any better if the trim isn't improved.
> 
> Is your horse really unsound? Could still be an abscess that's causing the tenderness. The soaks will help. But...to much water can soften a hoof and make it sore, and abscesses will eventually pop on their own, regardless, if the hoof gets enough blood circulation. So...if you skipped soaks, I wouldn't call you a bad horse mom.
> 
> ...


Hi. I've been following this discussion on seedy toe etc. because I have an older quarter horse who is pretty stiff but getting better after we discovered he had an abcess which blew out. He is probably arthritic also but such a nice ride. I keep him barefoot and he's very willing but he's very ouchy and woosey about going on anything more stoney that plain clay/sand. He's been hard to toughen up because of that. I have some pine tar and salve left over from 10 years ago when people were pretty much painting the bottoms of their horses feet. I get the impression that doing so is not that good an idea so I'm not asking for a recipe for a hoof hardener. But how can I get him tougher? Also, what are the riding boots you've mentioned? By the way his feet are excellent and he gets a great diet and gets trimmed by a barefoot trim farrier every six weeks. He did get seedy toe and the abcess when we had way too much rain for 2 months but he has grown all that bad hoof out.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Barefoothooves doesn't get on often due to the busys and dialup so allow me to address the hoof boot question. 

Hoof boots are basically shoes you can remove after use. go to Easycare to read about some of the popular boots and their uses. I would say they would help your horse a lot for riding. You can also put an inexpensive pad inside if they still are touchy. Walmart blue exercise matting works great, just cut to fit.


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

Boot brand doesn't matter, really. There are so many styles now, too. You can get one that fits your needs according to budget and ease of application for the amount of time you will use them. 

And I'm not sure what your budget is or if you board your horse, so this may not be feasable, but you can put round gravel (it can be small river rock or pea gravel, or larger stones, just so long as they are smooth) in a high traffic area, say around the water trough, in the walk way of a gate he goes through frequently. The stones, if they aren't sharp, won't bruise him, will help toughen the feet and exfoliate the sole, and will help get rid of those muddy spots. The key is to put them a few inches deep, so they aren't hard on him, but have some give. They'll pack down and scatter over time, and if your horse has toughened by then, you may not need to top them off very often to keep them deep, unless you want to. 

Personally, I have landscaping gravel along the front of the stalls of the barn, and in front of the watering hole. Cuts down on erosion, and their feet look pretty good. I have sandy, arena-like soil that wouldn't toughen any hoof at all, so I've compromised by buying rocks. I started with river gravel, several bags, mind you, from Lowes but you can probably save by having a truck load from the local gravel company put in. We later put some lava rock on top, and it's really polished up those soles! 

Older horses may never be as tough if they've been shod most of their life. Depending on how the shoes were applied, and you're horses' natural sole thickness, etc. But after years of shoeing the corium can be damaged enough it just doesn't grow quite as well, period. That's when you get boots for riding and every wins. We have a 25yr old that was shod all his life, until a few years ago, and he's a tad thinner soled. I can ride on concrete with him, or hard ground, but road gravel he's very careful about, so I boot him. I use Cavallos on him-he's round footed, and he's old so we don't ride him much, so they never rub on him, but if we rode more, would use Easyboot Epics, Gloves, or Bares.

Pine Tar is a good antiseptic type for horses, so in the sole it wouldn't toughen it, really, but it would help fend off thrush.


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