# Owner Telling Me What To Do



## taylorms (May 30, 2018)

Okay, so here is my situation. Most horse trainers charge $500 a month to train someone's horse. I agreed to 60 days of training for $450, but she doesn't sound grateful. That's beside the point. I'm on day three to four with this horse and she isn't giving me two eyes on the ground while round penning. The owner sent me a message saying oh I want her started on flexing and plastic bags. Ummmm....I'm sorry, but I'm not doing that until I get two eyes and full respect. The owner then said that she doesn't want her lunged a lot or whatever because it gets boring to the horse. Obviously, it doesn't get boring to the horse considering she still acts out (hasn't been touched in two years). The owner is telling me what to do and I'm only on day three or four of ground work basic manners. What would you guys say? Do you guys wait until you get two eyes and respect before desensitizing etc? I do, because if I stop what I'm doing now, she will be like oh I can walk all over you.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I can't really comment on the training aspect and I'm aware of the many different approaches to training a horse. She has you questioning yourself which is a GOOD thing... But, regardless of all that, you are providing a service. You are not her personal assistant. You are not doing her a favour. You are not her apprentice. You clearly have it set out how you want to train this horse and what your expectations are. It IS her horse and she can have an opinion but that's where the line ends. If she knows best then why isn't she training the horse herself? Because by this point I'd basically tell her to train the horse herself and leave. 

I used to train animals for tv and film. Of course I'd be reasonable and try listen to their concerns and find a compromise. But there's reasonable and then there is them being over-controlling. ignorant and picky. The stress isn't worth it and I got very quick at giving ultimatums: don't like it, find someone else or do it yourself.

You might be young and inexperienced at this whole business aspect of this... part of it is standing up for yourself, since you're your boss, right? You only get a pat on the back after you've trained a horse well - the end product. Yeah, you might not YET be the best horse whisperer in town but everyone has to learn. Be confident in yourself for giving your best, even when your best isn't _the_ best to be had. Remind her that she is paying a very decent price and that it is in her and her horse's best interest to let you get on with your JOB. Thoroughly outline her goals that you feel the price charged covers. If it doesn't cover "Desentization for a million and one things" then don't give that service. In fact, when I got annoying clients I used to get so irate I'd put the prices up on the spot. And they had to pay them, too or I would walk away. I'm not saying you're ready for that kind of leverage but I am very strong on: I'll listen to your opinion but don't expect me to deviate from my training method/approach _just_ because of it.

... on that note... what is the service, in detail, that you are providing? Because if it's just a vague, verbal "break my horse plex" then she can keep adding things and micro-managing until you have your end product goal in black and white.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't do a lot of desensitizing, yet they are being desensitized all the time. 

That said, I also don't get micro-managed by clients. 

It has been a long time since I had one do that and my response was "I'm sorry, but I am unable to provide the type of service you would like. You need to come get your horse." I did not seek reimbursement for my time, but did set a per day fee for any board after that contact, and I learned to be a better judge of prospective clients.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Is this the same person as this post http://www.horseforum.com/horse-trainers/3-days-saddle-break-790645/ ?


If so you were advised to run away


If not then you need better clients..


How old are you by the way? Hope you have good written contacts and a comprehensive insurance policy in place.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'd want two eyes. yeah,. There is no point in doing much else until the hrose's brain is available to you.


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## Trinket12 (Oct 27, 2017)

I don’t know anything about training horses, but I know a thing or two about being told how to do my job! I always start with setting clear expectations “ I will be doing X at this time and you will see Y on this date” and pushing back when they start asking for more than I can deliver. I.e. “ I understand your sense of urgency, however if we rush this it’s only going to cause more issues in the long run”; and I stick to my guns.

If you haven’t done so already, I’d suggest going through a plan with the owner of what you will be doing, when and the expected outcome. Run through the benefits with her of why you’re doing what you’re doing, and how ultimately she’s going to get the best trained horse.

If shes still on you after that, then maybe you need to walk away and work with clients who respect and appreciate your expertise.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm kind of curious why the horse is in day 4 of round penning, and not 'giving you two eyes'. what's it like, your work with her? I mean, that seems a long time to not have any change in the hrose's focus.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Ditto Tinyliny! It sounds like the perfect set up for the OP to learn from this mistake. 

Be prepared for this person to 
a) not pay you 
b) to bad mouth your abilities and further diminish future training opportunities for you. 

I have a feeling you will learn more from this than the horse. You may want to rethink your skill set and maybe focus on doing tune ups on other people's horses rather than advertising full on training. 

A few unhappy customers, and word will get around quickly. In the horse community, that's hard to come back from. 

There are plenty of people looking for someone to put miles and wet blankets on green horses, especially this time of year. For now, I'd steer clear of calling myself a "trainer." 
The liability is just too great for you until you are more experienced.


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## taylorms (May 30, 2018)

I know how to train a horse guys but when I say this horse hasn’t been touched. I’m not going to second guess my skills. Day one she Jumped out of the round pen and ran the owner over because the owner was in the way. It’s a problem horse but the owner understands now. I just had to explain it very carefully.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Everyone told you to walk from the horse, in your other thread, because of the owner.

You didn't listen ---- I'm not contributing anything to this thread. You ask, people try to help, you do what you're were initially going to do anyway -----

I hope you get all of your $450 ----------- and I really hope you don't hurt by the horse ----------- best wishes-------


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## Bugbegone (Jun 3, 2018)

My question is did you ask why this horse hadn't been touched in years? spoiled or past injury? Is the owner the original or has this horse been passed around? These things are important so you know where your starting point is round pen or general ground manners. Just a thought... Be safe


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

taylorms said:


> Okay, so here is my situation. Most horse trainers charge $500 a month to train someone's horse. I agreed to 60 days of training for $450, but she doesn't sound grateful. That's beside the point. I'm on day three to four with this horse and she isn't giving me two eyes on the ground while round penning. The owner sent me a message saying oh I want her started on flexing and plastic bags. Ummmm....I'm sorry, but I'm not doing that until I get two eyes and full respect. The owner then said that she doesn't want her lunged a lot or whatever because it gets boring to the horse. Obviously, it doesn't get boring to the horse considering she still acts out (hasn't been touched in two years). The owner is telling me what to do and I'm only on day three or four of ground work basic manners. What would you guys say? Do you guys wait until you get two eyes and respect before desensitizing etc? I do, because if I stop what I'm doing now, she will be like oh I can walk all over you.


I would respond along the lines of "If I'm not going at the pace that you expect, and you will continue to nit pick my each and every move, come pick up your horse and do it yourself."

But of course in more polite of terms :lol:

Safety is the number one priority with training horses, and if this horse isn't at the point of being handled safely enough to start desensitizing, then you shouldn't be starting that, plain and simple. I learned this lesson once, thinking that a horse was ready to move onto the next step in training, and he ended up communicating VERY CLEARLY that he was not, putting us both in danger.

But, as others have said, you knew she was going to be a PITA (pain in the ****) client, so you knew what you were getting into.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

taylorms said:


> I'm on day three to four with this horse and she isn't giving me two eyes on the ground while round penning. The owner sent me a message saying oh I want her started on flexing and plastic bags. Ummmm....I'm sorry, but I'm not doing that until I get two eyes and full respect.


You are being *employed by the owner*. Therefore, while you are supposedly the knowledgeable trainer, you also need to do what the owner wants, to a large degree. Sounds like neither you or owner were clear on specifics before you started. Sounds like you need to sit down respectfully with the owner & outline how you work, discuss the owner's desires and/or explain to her why you might not be able to do certain things in a certain time frame. If you can't agree respectfully, then I'd be saying 'I can't train your horse the way you want'. It's then up to her to either remove the horse from you or agree to allow you to do your own thing with the horse.

As a slight aside, I would suggest that if you've been round penning the horse for DAYS and can't even get her to face you, then you are doing something wrong. Probably about due time to quit & try a different tactic. Further, just because the horse 'Joins Up' with you or whatever, that doesn't equate to 'respect'.



> The owner then said that she doesn't want her lunged a lot or whatever because it gets boring to the horse. Obviously, it doesn't get boring to the horse considering she still acts out


I agree that heaps of lunging/round penning is likely to be boring/frustrating for the horse. That the horse is 'acting out' doesn't at all mean being run around in circles is not boring to it. But that's by the by really. The owner has requested you don't do much lunging/round penning, and it sounds like it's not achieving anything anyway, so I'd stop doing it.



> The owner is telling me what to do and I'm only on day three or four of ground work


It should have been discussed & worked out before you got to day 1. As above, I'd arrange a discussion to work this out immediately, before you get any further with your obvious angst at eachother.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I had a contact when I trained for the public. Basic liability, etc. There was a clause in there, if the client wanted to take back their horse before the 60 days had expired, barring injury, illness or lameness, the full training amount would not be refunded. No one ever told me how to train their horse, reason they brought it to me, and I discussed things with them beforehand anyways. If they did, I would hand them the leadrope or reins and say have at 'er!


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I do not tolerate people telling me how to train their horses. They are paying ME to train their horse. If they want the training done a certain way they can do it themselves. That being said … before I ever touch a client's horse I will go look at the horse, watch them interact with and work the horse if it is that broke, and only then will I sit down with them and say "Okay. You want me to accomplish x with your horse. This is how I will go about doing it. This is the approximate timeline. These are the exercises I will be teaching the horse." I will end the conversation, every time, by asking, "IS THIS ACCEPTABLE?" If the owner agrees, then that's that and I will schedule the horse for training and the matter will be closed. If the owner doesn't agree, this is their chance to tell me. If they don't want me doing something, or want something in particular done with the horse, I give them that chance to let me know before I ever start training. I had one guy who wanted me to desensitize his colt to gunfire. Okay, that's not something I usually do, but fine, I can do that. Then we have a discussion, and come to an agreement, or I tell them that their expectations are unrealistic or cannot be accomplished for whatever reason. 

I have no qualms whatsoever about telling someone they're asking for too much, from me or the horse. I had one lady try to tell me she wanted her horse doing about a million things at the end of 30 days from a barely halter broke state and I flat out told her "I cannot do those things in the time you have specified. This is what I CAN do in that time. If you don't like it, find someone else." She left in a huff and I didn't think anything of it …. until a few months later when she came crawling back and confessed that everyone else had told her the same thing, and would I please train her horse the way I had originally outlined? I took her horse and had him going very well after 60 days and she was very happy with him, and is now one of my references. 

I also keep in touch with my clients, and will call or text them weekly and let them know how their horse is doing, if he needs more or less time, etc. I find that this keeps the owners in sync with the program and keeps them abreast of everything, and generally keeps surprises to a minimum. Personally I find nothing wrong with the owner wanting the horse to be desensitized to everything on earth, or flexing, or whatever … but that stuff is ironed out before I ever touch the horse, and I do it in the order and time of my choosing, not theirs. If they came to me on day x and demanded that I train the horse to do y I would hand them the lead rope and say "Either do it yourself, today, or let me do my job."


-- Kai


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Agree that it would be best to evaluate the horse, then outline the training plan for the owner, and make sure the owner agrees with the training plan. That way you can just update the owner on how things are progressing rather than having the owner tell you what should happen at each step.

Do I understand that the horse is two but has never been handled?
It is my belief that respect is something you can work on with horses that have been handled already. You don't take an untouched horse and begin by working on respect. 

For example, an off track TB has been trained and handled by many people. He might walk over you or nip at you, and he needs to learn that is not acceptable. But a horse that has not been handled sees you as a predator and first needs to learn to accept touch, handling, and understand that you won't harm him.

A wild mustang doesn't learn respect first, he learns to accept you in his space without running and being afraid, and to accept touch and know you won't harm him. So trust comes before respect. Since most people work with horses that have been handled, they may not understand that the first step even with a foal is learning to trust humans, not to respect them.

I've met some mustangs you could chase in a round pen forever but they would not let you near anymore than they would if they were being chased relentlessly by a coyote. Instead, you had to let them adapt to having you come near, and then accepting touch and learning you would not hurt them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

gottatrot said:


> You don't take an untouched horse and begin by working on respect. ...
> a horse that has not been handled sees you as a predator and first needs to learn to accept touch, handling, and understand that you won't harm him. ...
> the first step even with a foal is learning to trust humans, not to respect them.


Those things just cannot be restated enough. Esp to people who have seen the currently popular aggressive 'round penning' style 'training' & think that's how you 'start' a horse... or 'get respect'. Respect has to be *earned*, it cannot be forced.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

For goodness sake, if your round pen is less than 6' in height, *put the horse on a lunge line! *it gives you way more control.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I didn't read any responses from posters....yet!
I only read the OP's statements and now have a question....
Which will probably lead to more questions once you answer the first one...

You wrote, "Most horse trainers charge $500 a month to train someone's horse. I agreed to 60 days of training for $450, but she doesn't sound grateful."....

So you are doing 2 months of training for $50 less than other trainers charge for 1 month of training?
_Did I get that right?_
You wonder why the owner is dictating to you what you will/will not do?
From my perspective, you are not presenting yourself very well, as a professional to start.
Any trainers that I worked with, for or employed have a schedule of fees...period.
They are non-negotiable and although the owner gives input on what they would like to have as a finished outcome they _do not_ tell the trainer how to do their job...
Any trainer I know who allowed that was not worth their salt.
Trainers know their job, and know how to talk with their clients and how to tell the client they train their way...
If the owner not like it bring a trailer and get the horse gone.
Your bill will be waiting for you on animal pick-up...

So if I got this right...you're doing 2 months of training for what others charge for one month less $50....
Wow...all I can say is wow...

Now I went back and read some of the rest of what has been written and commented on... :|
All I can say is, "Wow"...just wow.
Wow is all that shall come from me...not touching this one, not by a mile.
No comments, no advice, no have you tried.._.just no._

:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Horses in the UK and Europe were and are successfully broken in without ever seeing a round pen so its not a method I'm at all familiar with or need to be familiar with - I think its probably created more confusion and messed up horses than people realise.


You should have sat down with the owner and discussed your proposed training method and you both should have discussed expectations before you took charge of the horse. 
I've broken my own horses and those belonging to other people as part of a paid job - I would never put a fixed time on start to finish where finish = a horse that's got an understanding of the basic cues and able to be ridden safely out of an arena because not all horses are equal and they don't all come to you in the same stage of learning.
A horse that's been well handled from birth and has good manners isn't going to take as long as one that's never been touched.


If I take on an untouched horse I'll spend a week just handling it on the ground so its totally relaxed around humans before any actual breaking work even starts but some untouched horses can take longer if they've got higher levels of nervous or challenging traits and that's something an owner needs to be fully aware of before a horse arrives with me.


If you and the owner can't get your heads around the fact that rushing the horse isn't going to end well then you should send the horse back now and charge them for the time that you've had it.


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## pennywise (Feb 1, 2016)

Isn't it funny how they couldn't do this themselves, so they found you, and are then proceeding to tell you how to do your job? Even though they knew they weren't capable of just doin' it themselves in the first place?? ? Classic, although, too relatable. Why people pay someone for a service and then attempt to micromanage the entire thing, seems stupid, almost..... _too_ stupid. You could placate her and say, "Thanks, I'll take that into consideration" or you could just tell he to stay in her own lane or take the horse home. "You either let me work or you don't", her choice, da? I'd do some sort of video documentation though, something, because this person doesn't sound like a dream boat and you don't want her getting her horse back and returning the favor by bad mouthing you and your work. Evidence is good. This stuff takes time to do and if she wants to rush the process, I'd say just give the horse back and find clients that are ready to wait for good work to pay off. The horse sounds like they have a lot of issues and I don't know you so I won't say that you're not skilled enough to get the job done, but getting the job done when someone is breathing down your neck is not optimal for creating a positive work environment. You also don't work a service retail job so you have no reason not to tell this person to back off as soon as they step into your bubble. I mean, if everyone was scared of being bad mouthed by clients, no one would have clients, right? I mean, people pretty much suck no matter where you go and you've got to be able to look at someone in the face and set in the rules if they want to do business.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

Some of this answer is dependent on what you told the client you could do in a specific time period. If you were up front with the client about your abilities and your intentions then I would stick to your plan. However I don’t see any reason not to move along other areas of training once it’s safe to proceed. You can work on round penning, softness and flexing in the same secession with a horse that can be caught and handled with a lead line.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

1. Respect should be established on Day 1. So you're missing something in your round penning.
2. The owner hired you and bought your program so she needs to let you work. Period. 

Cut your losses, discontinue the training and learn more about round pen training.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I get the whole 'someone trying to tell you how to suck eggs' attitude. As a farrier I really do - gotta love those owners who tell me how to do my job... not!

But at the same time I realise it's due mostly to miscommunication or misunderstanding. Owners aren't(usually) experts in the field they employ 'experts' for(tho can you imagine being Dr Bowker's farrier - sheesh!!), so they often don't know what can & can't be done or why. So it's entirely understandable to question & make incorrect assumptions. It's up to us as the trainer/farrier/whatever, to be able to explain ourselves and treat them respectfully, and be up front, from day 1, how we work & what we can & can't do.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Loosie, you would love me as a client - I would talk to a farrier try and see horses he had been shoeing for a while, go by recommendation and when they arrived first thing I'd ask is tea or coffee! 

If I had a horse that had problems either with their action or behaviour, I would tell them. 

Foals born with deviations would see vet and farrier at the same time, treatment discussed and carried out often there and then or within a couple of days.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh for more clients like you Fox! The only thing I commonly ask for more than that is for my clients to question what I'm doing & why - take an interest in learning as much as they can & try to make informed decisions in what you're allowing me to do. ;-) If you wanted to ask questions such as 'would this be worth a try?' I'd be happy to indulge & discuss & even consider doing whatever, if you have good reasons to want to do so. Just because I'm the (supposed) expert doesn't mean I'm omniscient!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I have found that just asking, instead of telling, gets me a whole lot further. I had a foal born that was really lax in the tendons of his back legs and he wasn't tightening up fast enough for me. He also looked like his heels were down (crushed) a bit and he had long-ish toes. So I asked my farrier to come by and have a look to make recommendations when the foal was about 1 week old. He looked at him, we talked about maybe filing his toes a little and other things that he could do if we decided it was necessary, and decided to wait until the regular trim visit to re-evaluate him. At our regular visit he did a little filing to encourage the foal not to drag his toes. By the time he'd come for the regular visit the foal had improved immensely and he said he didn't think anything further needed to be done. I would no more have dreamed of TELLING him what do with that foals feet than I'd have flown to the moon. 

Same thing with horse training. I ASK my trainer, "Can we do this? Can he/she learn that?" and then the trainer will tell me yes, no, maybe, or they're not there yet but eventually. 

Communication is a 2 way street, but there's no point in paying for someone's expertise if you're just wanting someone to push around and tell what to do. That's a complete waste of their time and your money.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I paid $900 per month for the guy I sent Cloud to. Cloud already had 90 days under saddle on him when he went there. This guy took 30 days on the ground before he got on the horse. I THOUGHT to myself... hurry up! But I kept my mouth shut. I'm glad I did because this guy did it right. I am REALLY happy with the end result. You need to tell this girl that there should never be set deadlines when training horses. There should be set goals but not deadlines.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

If your getting the wrong answer, it's because your asking the wrong question. It's not the horse, it's not the owner, it's you.

Are you training this horse at the owners place? That's your first mistake.

I was a general contractor for 30+ years and NOBODY told me how to do my job.....EVER!

This is why I won't train a horse for anybody, never have, never will. My great uncle owned the pony ride in Griffith Park. That was his side job. He retired a millionaire by buying, training, and selling horses people had screwed up. The man was a genius with horses. In the 1950s he was selling ponies for $30,000

There's no money in training horses for people. Around here those screwed up horses are free or cheap and come with a saddle. Occasionally I'll pick one up, ride it for a season, sell it for a profit, then sell the saddle.


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