# Can guard donkeys save a Colorado ranchers cattle? Let's discuss!



## Linoone (11 mo ago)

The latest line of defense against wolves on this Colorado ranch? Guard donkeys 

Thoughts and feelings on this? I really want to see everyone's reactions!


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## Sombrablu (9 mo ago)

They are efficient cattle guards usually but I’ve seen far too many kill goats, sheep, pigs, pet dogs etc and I have more than just cows. I prefer LGDs, Armenian Gampr being my breed of choice. They are super intuitive and discern pets from predators, friend from foe etc


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## Yellsback (Jul 22, 2021)

Overall I think it’s a cool idea, and certainly worth trying. 
I do agree with the rancher that the preferred first-line defense would be a bullet, however as he mentioned that’s not legal in all states.

Part of me thinks a pack of guard dogs would be more effective, using the “fight fire with fire” analogy. However, donkeys are worth a try and it could potentially help find homes for many BLM donkeys. Win-win!😊


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

Here in Texas having a guard donkey is nothing new.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I'm sure it's fine for smaller areas but not on allotments with 10's- 100's thousand acres where cattle are more scattered.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Yeah... not as effective as LGDs. At least not in bigger country in my observations. A neighbor had a couple out with his pairs. 8000 acre pasture, so not immense. He still had losses to coyote and bear. (We only had native timber wolves in the area at that time.) 

Neighbor repeated the old punchline about the donkeys having to sleep sometime when asked about his losses. 

I've known of a few others. Some went with donkeys on their forest service leases because they didn't want the liability of people harassing the dogs, thinking they were lost pets, and getting bitten.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I wonder if they would work in the early spring when things were calving before you turn out. We had a friend lose 21 calves he knew of to coyotes this spring! That’s insane to me. I don’t think they’d work with any big ground to cover though.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

It might work on cattle that are penned up but you take cattle out on the open range, nope. You would have to have a donkey attached to every cow.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Knave said:


> I wonder if they would work in the early spring when things were calving before you turn out. We had a friend lose 21 calves he knew of to coyotes this spring! That’s insane to me. I don’t think they’d work with any big ground to cover though.


That's a good question. 

The neighbor with donkeys didn't run them on his calving ground. He did get me to set snares around the perimeter and a guy trapped the area.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Why didn’t he run them there @boots?


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

When I was on my ranch, we shot coyotes on sight. Now, no one has done that and one of the neighbors is losing calves. got to keep their populations under control, of you have a big time problem.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Agreed^^^ You have to keep the population down and if they have no fear they have no bubble. I've had them trot down through heifers as I'm checking and feeding. I've had them stalk me horseback and jump my dogs. 

The year we really fought them, they ate the back end of a heifer and the face off of the calf as it she was trying push him out. 
Granted we weren't calving in a barn lot but still what we considered "inside", a couple hundred pasture, a half mile from the barn lot.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

We do too @Zimalia22, but they are bad this year. Not so much on our place, although there were several, but on that place they got 93 dogs in one day!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

We have two packs of coyotes. One that runs the hollow and one that runs the ridge. Husband's uncle culled the older, infirmed or anything that looked sick. We never had issues and actually had a female take up residence. She left everything alone; hunting the burn piles and overgrown areas. Her favorite times were mowing day and burn day. She ate well. Always kept a respectful distance. We never fed her out of hand or pot. She'd show up every morning when we left for work and would leave when we'd get home. Best guard dog ever. UPS would deliver at the neighbor's house. Then we got new neighbors. They killed everything. It took years to reestablish the predators. Until then we were over run by every rodent species known to man. Our yard looked like Australia at the height of the bunny wars.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Knave said:


> Why didn’t he run them there @boots?


I had to message him. I couldn't remember.

He said he tried it two years. A few years apart. Had donks stomp calves. Not all calves. Two different donkeys. But not worth the risk.

I remember them going after dogs, which made some sense.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Agreed^^^ You have to keep the population down and if they have no fear they have no bubble. I've had them trot down through heifers as I'm checking and feeding. I've had them stalk me horseback and jump my dogs.
> 
> The year we really fought them, they ate the back end of a heifer and the face off of the calf as it she was trying push him out.
> Granted we weren't calving in a barn lot but still what we considered "inside", a couple hundred pasture, a half mile from the barn lot.


I've seen that. I've had to shoot a few cows that were harmed beyond recovery. 

It helps me to remember that if the "tables were turned" cattle would eat coyote pups, etc.


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## Linoone (11 mo ago)

@Sombrablu @Yellsback @My Salty Pony @COWCHICK77 @boots @Knave @Zimalia22 @QtrBel 

How effect against wolves do you think donkeys would be? As that will be the main predatory animal that these donkeys in Colorado will be going up against.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Linoone said:


> @Sombrablu @Yellsback @My Salty Pony @COWCHICK77 @boots @Knave @Zimalia22 @QtrBel
> 
> How effect against wolves do you think donkeys would be? As that will be the main predatory animal that these donkeys in Colorado will be going up against.


In my experience with the non-native Canadian grey wolves that have been imported, the donkeys will be on the menu.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Agreed^^^ You have to keep the population down and if they have no fear they have no bubble. I've had them trot down through heifers as I'm checking and feeding. I've had them stalk me horseback and jump my dogs.
> 
> The year we really fought them, they ate the back end of a heifer and the face off of the calf as it she was trying push him out.
> Granted we weren't calving in a barn lot but still what we considered "inside", a couple hundred pasture, a half mile from the barn lot.


I know the feeling. You have a normal healthy calf, and it stands there with it's nose and mouth ate off by coyotes. So that's one of the jobs of a rancher. You have to go shoot the poor lil guy. 
I would LOVE to have one of those "you can't shoot coyotes!" people out there at that time. Make them pull the trigger!! See just how much they enjoy it!! 

I am still of the opinion coyotes should be shot on sight. People say we will run out of them. HA! if they nuked the entire world, there would still be coyotes!


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## My Salty Pony (Jan 1, 2022)

Linoone said:


> @Sombrablu @Yellsback @My Salty Pony @COWCHICK77 @boots @Knave @Zimalia22 @QtrBel
> 
> How effect against wolves do you think donkeys would be? As that will be the main predatory animal that these donkeys in Colorado will be going up against.


The donkeys will lose in my opinion, they will just be another animal that the wolfs will stalk and run down. The Donkey's are not going to be strong enough against a pack of wolfs, Heck even here they wont stand a chance against a pack of dogs are coyotes if the pack is a large number. The Guardian Donkeys are used to protect sheep/goats and cattle against fox's and coyotes/dogs and bobcats that like the smaller pray as in young/baby goats/sheep/calfs, and a adult goat or sheep, but up against a pack of wolfs NO WAY. Wolfs will stalk and stalk untill their pray gets worn down and a Donkey will be no different.
I raise Boer goats and I have had horrible attacks on my Goats by coyotes and a few stray dogs that would come threw here, not a pretty picture. I do have Donkeys but they are pets and live in their own pasture, BUT no dogs/coyotes allowed as they will chase them out of their pasture. They are to much trouble to have up here with the goats because they eat the feed I feed my goats and Thats another problem having Guard donkeys is because of their diet. 
I feel bad for the Donkeys they will just be a added list of prey for the wolfs in my opinion.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

And then there would be areas overrun by rodents among other animals they keep in check. I much prefer to hear and occasionally see a coyote tail as it's streaking through than ever be over run again by rats, mice, rabbits, raccoons and squirrels. 

It's all about management and protecting your resources. There are times when they need culled and there are places they aren't welcome as there is no other population to sustain them because we've encroached or over managed their food supply. They are opportunistic and calves do make easy targets. Wolves statistically are more likely to go after sheep than cattle. Either way livestock guardian animals are a good idea. Donkeys where they are effective and dogs during calving as well as bringing herds in closer and into areas that size wise are more manageable. If you can't do that then if other prey is not available expect losses. Figure them into your numbers and manage your populations. Getting rid of any one predator invites others into your range.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@QtrBel I think a happier medium can be achieved. They never did any good here for rodent control, and cats seem to handle that fine in homesteads and gopher and squirrel traps in fields. I think on the mountain they are fine, but anywhere near vulnerable animals they do need shot. I don’t think it’s fair to just add in the costs of lost animals, because it is our job to protect those animals under our care. Much like if you had a foal born and let the coyotes kill it during birth. That is your responsibility to protect that foal, and I’m sure you would want those coyotes killed.

Now, when I see them on the mountain I could care less. They are happy up there living on rabbits and squirrels and whatever else, but when they encroach places they shouldn’t be, they have to be killed. This year they are so plentiful, and the rabbits are going through a down cycle, and so they are out to kill what they can. Of course that is fair on their end, but it is fair on ours to not let them too. I had one literally kill my goose on my porch right outside of my door. He came back the next day for the goose’s mate, and got one of my cats the day after that. Luckily we killed him the next day, because I’m sure we wouldn’t have had a cat or chicken left.

When they kill calves as they are being born, it is sad and disgusting. I know it’s not to them, and I don’t hold it against them as a species, but I do find it necessary to do my best to protect what is my responsibility.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If you've done what you can to protect your herd, taken all measures you can against predation and they are still taking animals from your herd then yes, you do what needs done. But just because you signed on the dotted line and the property is yours doesn't mean you (g) aren't the one encroaching. Thin their ranks appropriately, cull those that have gotten a taste of easy prey or they'll teach their young but to not expect any loss is not realistic. Not everyone is comfortable with them living as we do up close and personal. We (you and I) live in very different environments. The cows here are close and not far ranging. Neighborhoods have sprung up around us. Loss in the 22 years I've been here from coyotes though is extremely low to possibly non existent. Three calves that most likely were dogs and an elderly cow that was eaten at soon after passing most probably. The three calves lost amount to 0.004% of the numbers raised in that time. The packs are managed just as everything else is managed. We've lost almost entire flocks of chickens to neighbor's dogs and that is with them penned up. The dogs were found in the pens. The calves lost were lost after seeing dogs in the fields hence the assumption dogs. Animals lost to wildlife are few and far between as we know the habits of the wildlife and work with not against them. Our neighbor that lost a pair cats and almost lost one of her dogs were due to a neighbor's dogs not the coyotes even though her animals are in an area covered by underground fence with a dog door that is rarely shut. Not the coyotes. Have we had neighbors lose other animals? Yes. But they let their chickens free range from the time their daughter leaves at 6.30ish for the bus to the time the parents head for bed around 10. Changing their schedule would save them the grief. They had no safe raised pen for the rabbits which dug out or close pen or shed for the baby goats. That's on them. Still most of the loss was due to domestic dogs. Aside from the occasional hawk we've only had trouble with fox. Lock the hens up for a few days and change the times we let the hens out and pick them up and they change their route. No more problems until they can't find what they normally eat. There have been more dogs shot for predation than coyotes culled by family over the years. But, we live in a different environment. They have no where to go so managing them prevents loss. I'm not against a justified kill. The old, injured and ill. There are those that raise heck about that.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

Wolves take down bull elk, a heck of a lot bigger than they are. A donkey would stand no chance at all against them.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I agree with @Knave there's a balance for sure. 
On the years that we fought the coyotes it was when the rabbit numbers were down. (Coyotes typically dont kill for sport like wolves do). 
Then there's been years we fought the rabbits from eating the hay stacks and count on the coyotes to thin them out. Those years they were happy eating hunting rabbits and stayed out of the calves. 
But honestly, like @Zimalia22 said, we could get nuked and coyotes would still be here. They are hardy animals.

They do learn their place too, they are smart. They learned they got shot at down in the meadows but for the most part left alone on the mountain.


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## krisadreyer (Nov 22, 2015)

I think snares should be against the laws for wolves and coyotes because people's pets can get caught in the snares including Bobcats and Lynxes. Any wolves, coyotes, bobcats, Lynxes get caught in the snares should be release and let go. Get Bigger giant Dogs to protect your cattle. Keep your cattle up close to your barn instead out farther free range at night? Keep your horses inside the barn at night. Dogs with the cattle during the daytime? Dogs and Donkey with the cattle during the night up close by the barn?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

krisadreyer said:


> I think snares should be against the laws for wolves and coyotes because people's pets can get caught in the snares including Bobcats and Lynxes. Any wolves, coyotes, bobcats, Lynxes get caught in the snares should be release and let go. Get Bigger giant Dogs to protect your cattle. Keep your cattle up close to your barn instead out farther free range at night? Keep your horses inside the barn at night. Dogs with the cattle during the daytime? Dogs and Donkey with the cattle during the night up close by the barn?


If I remember right changing your traps, chains and swivels and how you bait can reduce the chances of domestic dogs vs coyotes. But I was just a kiddo when I thought I wanted my own trap line.

Some of us who've commented on the subject live pretty far out. Cattle run on thousands of acres, the nearest neighbor is 30 miles away, so other than your own dogs, catching the neighbor's is pretty slim. LGDs are great for close to the barn but not practical for hundreds to thousands of head on even more acres.

It's not about being too lazy about protecting our cattle it's about protecting them the best we can in the environment we live in.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I've trapped and snared coyote.

When I set on calving grounds it was close to the buildings (houses and barns). Ranchers never lost a house pet or working dog. A guy who snared in a nearby area caught a dog once. The dog sat down and barked. I've been told by several old trappers that domestic dogs will not fight the snare. 

Not a risk I'd want to take. I always let everyone know exactly where they were set. 

To the topic: Both predator and prey need managed. 

It's popular in some circles to blame human interference for problems in nature. But, a little research shows that species numbers have ebbed and flowed even without human intervention. I prefer we do these best we can and then do better. Always seek to improve.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

Domestic dogs should not be on anyone else’s property @krisadreyer. Where I live, dogs are legal to shoot on sight on your property. Now, many people don’t shoot dogs they know. My dogs go to my neighbor’s house, which I dislike, but I guess they feed them their dinner scraps every night. Lol. One of my dogs will bite though, so I try my best to monitor her and get after her when she heads that direction. If they shot my dogs, they would be completely justified, excepting the fact that they do reward their visits.

If people don’t know the dog who shows up, usually he gets shot. Granted, most anyone close knows everyone’s dogs. When poison is out, everyone warns their neighbors with dogs, and people keep them in for two weeks.

When people trap in my area, they are mostly looking for bobcats. Bobcats bring the most money, although trapping is down last I heard. Lions are the only thing requiring release, and most trap lines are no where near where pets roam.

As far as pets go though, it really is the responsibility of the owner in my area. Pet dogs can cause as much damage, if not more, than coyotes. They also are more dangerous for people because they aren’t scared of people. I prefer my county’s way of thinking over what you posted, because everyone is responsible for their own animals. It is not only your responsibility to keep your animals under control, but your responsibility to protect them as well.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

I've had coyote trappers on my place off and on for years. They do help control the population of them. 
No one is advocating for elimination of them, but you have to control the population or they will eat anything that moves. 
In my little valley, we have coyotes, wolves, cougar, bobcat, badger, rattlesnakes, and other assorted "nasties". Kept in balance, it all goes well. But coyotes can get out of control easily. Then it's not good for anyone, or anything. 

For those that think we are being "harsh", let me ask you this, Have you ever had to put a newborn calf down because a coyote caught the cow down having it, ate off it's nose and mouse? Until then, you have no idea just how bad they can get. In answer to the question, yes I have. Its not a lot of fun. Plus, it's expensive. That's money right out of my pocket. I had 9 months invested in that calf, not to mention a production year out of that cow. 

Dogs are great for those that have small places and can keep their stock close by. But for those of us that live in a different world with large ranches, they are just not practical.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Linoone said:


> The latest line of defense against wolves on this Colorado ranch? Guard donkeys
> 
> Thoughts and feelings on this? I really want to see everyone's reactions!


It's a mixed bag of answers. Can a donkey protect other livestock? Yes, of course they can (people wouldn't use them if they couldn't). Will they? That can depend. I use to explain the situation this way.
If a horse encounters something it might feel to be a threat (e.g. a horse eating balloon from a party...don't laugh, horses can be funny that way) their first reaction is to run away. Whether the threat is real or imagined doesn't matter. Running away is always the safe bet in the equine mind. Donkeys are not equines. They are actually smarter. If they encounter a potential threat the make use of more than one option. If they feel they can win the fight then they will stand their ground or even attack. However, they are not above running away if they feel the odds are against them. You are unlikely to see a donkey taking on a large pack of wolves if they have a means to escape.

My recommendation for that ranger would be to invest in some livestock guard dogs. There are several excellent breeds. Most common in the US are Great Pyrenees, Kuvasz, and Estrella Mountain Dog. These dog breeds have long had the predator instinct bred out of them. They will stay with their charges no matter what. My Estrella lost 3 of her cousins who died defending a shepherd's (their owner) large flock of sheep along with a significant number of goats. Was a bad day for the man. He lost about 100 animals and his three dogs, but they never abandoned the animals they were protecting...no matter what the odds. I've had Great Pyr and Estrella. Never found a difference in their performance. Both would protect the animals and my children (to the point that if they didn't know a person they would place themselves between my child and the other person and force (with their body weight) the child to remain a safe distance from the unknown person. When one of my horses died, my Estrella was laying a couple of feet from the body and would not leave it until I moved it.

A donkey will easily handle something like a coyote or a dog (even my horse will do that), but a pack of 8 or more wolves or dogs is something I doubt a donkey (or three) will stand up against unless it has no choice (they're ornery, not stupid). For my money, I'd go with a livestock guard dog breed. They make more than enough noise to let you know something is going on (think of a large dog barking through a bullhorn) and they'll fight the threat no matter what the odds. Best part is that, unlike most working brees, you don't have to train them to guard and defend. They're "hard wired" to do that. You do need to be sure to socialize them though or they'll be prone to see every person or animal that is not part of what they are guarding, as a potential threat (fortunately, most of those breeds only fight as a last resort and rely on barking to drive off potential threats). They will obey (if trained)...unless, they feel doing something they see as part of their job supersedes your command (i.e. they will make a "command decision" if they feel it's needed to fulfill the objective to protect and defend, even if you don't feel that way).


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