# How breeds have changed



## Nikkibella (Mar 10, 2012)

What the heck is wrong with that QHs back end??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horseychick94 (Nov 19, 2009)

Nikkibella said:


> What the heck is wrong with that QHs back end??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely EVERYTHING


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Fortunately not all QH's look like that palomino.

Seeing the old QH picture makes me miss when it was fashionable to have their tails shortened to their hocks. Especially since the last week or so the horses have been coming in with burrs in their tails.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

What I think is sad is that most breeds have gotten lighter boned and smaller footed. 

I like a nice tanky, sturdy horse that looks like it can do a day's work.

Unfortunately I guess as horses are used less for actual work, they are breed to be flashier and have lighter bone. I really blame the show ring for this. As a good sturdy using horse should always be in style with the folks that actually use horses for riding in real terrain, and not just in a show ring. :-x


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm with you Trailrider



> I like a nice tanky, sturdy horse that looks like it can do a day's work.


This is what I want as well, it is really sad seeing how we are changing the breeds.

Yet again, this is why I actually support cross breeding, keep the original breed standards, and out cross if you want to lighten a heavy breed.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

I used to ride at a Morgan show barn. Before I went there, I had always seen them being used on ranches as working horses that had nice bone and stronger and larger feet. Needless to say they looked MUCH different than the ones I saw doing Saddleseat... And I didn't like what I saw. Most of those horses have legs that are lighter in bone than my Arab! I think this depends on the breeder most of the time, but in some peoples' hands I fear for the breed.

Friesans are getting more sporty. Not something I like either.


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## 4hoofbeat (Jun 27, 2013)

there are "types" of Morgans. The lippit line of morgans look more like the original is supposed to, and for me anyway, it seems the "working" or "sport" lines. I have come to the conclusion, if i want a Morgan that can be ridden on the trails, i'll be searching for a while, outside of my current area. I was lucky with my old guy that he has great breeding and those wonderful hooves of his, never a lame step, never any health issues, other than being hard to keep weight on now that he's 29. 


i love the older types of all of those breeds. (except the TWH with his broken tail) It's kinda sad that the show ring has dictated a lot of how people breed their horses.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Breeds are always likely to change, as fads come and go. What gets me is when a breed is unrecognizable. For example:

AQHA.

*Then*: bred to be the all around ranch horse and fastest over a 1/4 mile. Sound, sound sound and could go all day checking fence or chasing cows.
*Now: *halter qh's can barely move, rarely stay sound in pasture, never mind under saddle, and often have poor dispositions. WP versions couldn't run(most, not all I'm sure) if their life depended on it. Several lines are known as extremely difficult and much of the population has light, inadequate bone and tiny feet.

Arabians

*Then:* war horse of the desert. People oriented. Small, hardy, extremely sound, solid colored, incredible endurance, bold saddle horse, intelligent.
*Now: *Again not referring to all of them(I own one that follows the original type) but many are idiots. flighty to the point of being unusable, light boned, tiny, clubbed feet, poor dispositions. Faces curved out like sea horses and table top backs. People breeding taller and taller ones in a rainbow of colors which would have been culled out in the original horses and are now sought after.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

That modern Belgian doesn't even look like a draft! I am hoping it is very young.
Some of these look like very poor examples of the breed, not all modern breeders are destoying the breeds. But these are very disheartening examples.


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## Horseychick94 (Nov 19, 2009)

People snark about how plus sized riders are too big for their horses. Me included even though I know it's BS. At the rate this new generation of breeds is going, not even KIDS will be able to ride these tooth pick legged narrow bodied MUTANTS! But golly they sure will be real pretty like to look at out in the pasture...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Good thread
Some have hardly changed at all - I think the differences in the Drafts are mostly down to age and weight that they're carrying
The welsh could be a section B compared to a section C but that collection of breeds has had so much Arabian blood put into it over the years
The Arabian has probably suffered the most breeding abuse in terms of going from a useful riding horse to an art form fit only to look at


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Horseychick94 said:


> People snark about how plus sized riders are too big for their horses. Me included even though I know it's BS. At the rate this new generation of breeds is going, not even KIDS will be able to ride these tooth pick legged narrow bodied MUTANTS! But golly they sure will be real pretty like to look at out in the pasture...


Yup. I am actually hesitant to put my 200lb 6'1" boyfriend on my Arab/Saddlebred sometimes. I just look at her legs and fear they will snap.

I felt sometimes that I was too heavy for some of the Morgans I have ridden, and I am only around 160lbs!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

The thing that gets me is that the breed standards don't change, just what is fashionable to have. It is even worse in the dog world, because the generations can be churned through at twice the rate, but the human race is guilty of producing mutant animals that can't reproduce or give birth without assistance, horses than can't do a full days work, or in some cases can't even work, it is very sad.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

The foundation morgan is considered an endangered breed on the ALBC's list. It's hard to find a good versatile, solid using horse. they're out there just not in the numbers as before. It's part of what drew me to the Spanish barb horse, an old breed that's hardy and versatile. I like the old any breed, old arabs, morgans, drafts love all of the old styles.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I can't decide what has changed more the horses or the "show stance". Its ironic that a stance chosen to make the horse highlight itself really just shows how strange it is.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

jaydee said:


> Good thread
> Some have hardly changed at all - I think the differences in the Drafts are mostly down to age and weight that they're carrying
> The welsh could be a section B compared to a section C but that collection of breeds has had so much Arabian blood put into it over the years
> The Arabian has probably suffered the most breeding abuse in terms of going from a useful riding horse to an art form fit only to look at


I don't even like looking at the new Arab.....*shutters*.... Kinda like looking at a Picasso....confuses me!


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## Luvs Horses (Jan 9, 2014)

I find myself liking the mutts more n more. 
I do have breeds that I really like; but, I too prefer strong looking legs versus the spider leg look. I notice that the barrel of the horses also seems to be shrinking as in getting more shallow. I always thought that a deep barrel means better endurance. 

love QHs but no diaper butts please nor tiny heads.
love Arabians that still look like the old school arabs.
Love big horses with big strong frames.


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## littleamy76 (Jun 30, 2011)

Wow, in some of the breeds you can tell a big difference. They all look lighter and more fragile. I love Arabians and I love a dished face, but the dished faces I'm seeing today looks absolutely unnatural and hideous.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Thankfully, not all present horses look like those pictured in the "now" photos. You have to remember that there are many different types in each breed....and you can't really compare show bloodlines with working bloodlines.

For example: Please forgive the fatness. Lack of time prevents us from working them as they should be worked so they are all just pasture fit. BUT, when they are in shape, they can do a full day's work, day after day, at their discipline. The drafts are a driving team and the QH is a ranch horse.

Percheron. He would never place in a show pen; his neck ties in too low, his shoulders are too heavy, his barrel is too large, and his legs are too short (even though he's 18hh tall)









Belgian. She would _certainly_ never place in any sort of show. She's too coarse, legs too short (though she's 17.2), legs too heavy, and too thick/wide










And Quarter horse. Halter horse? Ha, he'd place last in every class, but you put him on a cow and he'll blow them out of the water. You put something on a rope and he'll drag it exactly where you want it, regardless of its size.


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## aspin231 (Mar 20, 2010)

It hurt my heart that when I told my barn owner that my favourite breed is the Morgan, she scoffed "Oh, you like those _gangly_ things?"
No, I most certainly do not.
I had fun explaining that Lippit Morgans are not the same as saddleseat travesties.


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

Lipizzans look different based on what foundation stallion line they have the most of, too. I'm not sure those two pictures can tell you the whole story. Google images Lipizzan and see the difference


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

One of the reasons I do not breed horses for the show ring. is the modern arabian that excels there, couldn't carry a rider 10 miles much less 100 and is not the versatile breed that helped create the modern horse.
None of my stallions could win a halter class. That I am proud of. 

I would not give 5 dollars for a western pleasure or halter world champion of any breed . Horses bred for a specific use have limited versatility. In the long run that is not good for any breed IMO. Shalom


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My SIL has a half lipit mare. She is 17hh and THICK bone!!! now her confo is not stellar but she dose not look like she is made of glass. 

I will take a socky well put together mutt any day.

Thin legged horses have no use in performance. Look at american TBs. their toothpick legs brake left and right...


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

I think I am most disappointed in the breeding of the Morgan horse. I grew up loving the looks and mentality of the stout, well built, good looking, sensible horse that you could do almost _anything_ with. At this point it's been many years since I've seen one that doesn't look or act like a Saddlebred (and I like Saddlebreds too!)

Also disappointed in the tiny, high strung, unstable Arabians they are breeding. A friend of mine has a couple of substantial, tall, sensible, great looking Arabs from about 20 years ago but obviously they are getting to the end of their useful life. She had 1 particular breeder that she was going to for these but he has since had to go out of business because his horses are out of style.

Sad that people chose style over substance. My feeling is, keep the breeds as they were originally intended and then let people chose the breed they like.


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## MaximasMommy (Sep 21, 2013)

Chasin Ponies said:


> I think I am most disappointed in the breeding of the Morgan horse. I grew up loving the looks and mentality of the stout, well built, good looking, sensible horse that you could do almost _anything_ with.


You just described a Lippizan!


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

The toothpick legs and teacup hooves that many breeds seem to be developing these days is just part of why I love my mustangs -- their legs and hooves were tempered by generations of roaming over volcanic rock and desert prairies.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

There are a lot of people that don't think grade horses should be bred, but as long as I'm seeing show horses that shock me conformationally, I will never be against breeding grades. 

If we had more breeders that bred wonderful using horses, then sure, I would think purebreds should be bred more than grades, of course. But as long as I see what show horse breeders are doing to the various breeds, well, those grades might be the best using horses we have in a few years!

Some of the prettiest horses (conformationally) that I have seen out there have been draft crosses. While I hate the Premarin industry, they have produced some nice horses.

I also think there is something to "hybrid vigor." I accidentally ended up with a foal as I bought a mare I didn't know was pregnant. (He was a happy accident as I always wanted a foal). He has his own set of issues but I tell you what, his momma is 15.1 on a good day and his sire was no taller, and now I have this huge 16 hand horse at 4 yrs of age. He's gorgeous and overall well built and I think he outdid both his parents who really were average at best. I don't know where the genetics came from, but it seemed to be a really good cross. His sire is QH and his dam a Missouri Fox Trotter.

I do wish he was a little heavier boned, but as an unplanned breeding I think he turned out better than many purebreds out there. Which is kind of a sad testament on the purebreds today. :-x (You would think breeders would produce nicer horses conformationally than random pasture breedings.....but it isn't always so).


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The show ring and fashion has dictated and is responsible for most of the changes for the worst
The British Exmoor pony is still quite true to its ancestry but its now highly endangered - the welsh on the other hand which has had so much Arabian and some TB added to it over many years is still in high demand - because its flashier and prettier
The original Morgan had to be fast enough to win races and sturdy enough to beat opposition in pulling competitions so must have been a more powerful horse than a lot seen today - though I have noticed a few really good ones around
The Arabian will hopefully improve as more emphasis is being placed on a useful horse than just an ornament
When you compare past Arabians like Skowronek & Naseel with a current day UK ridden champion I do think that horses with more bone and substance are coming back


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

That is only slightly accurate. 
Depends on the strain, breeder, and - in some of those cases - handler and photographer. 
But of course, we'll choose the opposite contracting picture for shock appeal.


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## Cruiser (Aug 28, 2011)

Just a question I noticed in some of the old pictures of Belgians and Percherons they appear fat, not just stocky. I'm not talking about the working horses, but the ones you see with show halters or ribbons around they're neck. Wondering if its maybe the picture being deceiving or it was style of what a halter draft show look like at that time?


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Thanks for posting Skowronek, Jaydee! That's exactly who I thought of when the original post mentioned the Arabian breed. 

The other thing I notice about the earlier generations of Arabs is they don't have that super dishy face. Below is Measoud, a foundation Crabbet stallion. He has a little bit of concaveness to his face, but not nearly the exaggeration you see now. Looking at some modern day Arabs, the concave face has gone so far that it is almost to the point of being grotesque, not beautiful. Don't get me wrong, Arabs and Arab crosses are my favorite breeds, but I prefer ones that look a little more natural.









This is just an image I pulled off Google, so I have no idea who this is.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That Belgian comparison is not a fair one as that is a very young Belgian alongside an older finished horse. OOPs didn't see all the replies. Maybe someone has already mentioned that.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> What I think is sad is that most breeds have gotten lighter boned and smaller footed.
> 
> *I like a nice tanky, sturdy horse that looks like it can do a day's work.*


DITTO!!!!
TWH's and QH's have really suffered with the change in breeding over the last several decades. I first noticed a "lanky" TWH in the late 1980's, and I didn't care for the change.
I don't think it matters for the Hackney bc it's just now just a show driving horse/pony, and not expected to pull a great deal of weight.
It's the smaller feet that makes no sense.

I'll tell you what has changed for the worse, IMHO, it's the WB's. I remember seeing ads for WB's in "Practical Horseman" in the 1980's, and every one had a distinguished Roman Nose, which makes it easy to inhale. NOW, they've bred Arab or something into them to make them prettier, and taken away a very useful conformation.

Poor horses! They have to LIVE with their bad builds and fall apart faster. =/

Interesting thread. Thanks!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Older style drafts were stout and had a good fat layer covering so it is both that give that massive impression. Now unless they are used for work and come from working lines they are leaner, taller, and longer. That look excels in the hitch and halter classes. There are some breeds and shows in other countries that hold to the old standards closer and you find drafts that are well more drafty. The Suffolks have pretty much held their own and while they are getting taller they are still stout in most cases.


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## 4hoofbeat (Jun 27, 2013)

Glynnis said:


> Thanks for posting Skowronek, Jaydee! That's exactly who I thought of when the original post mentioned the Arabian breed.
> 
> The other thing I notice about the earlier generations of Arabs is they don't have that super dishy face. Below is Measoud, a foundation Crabbet stallion. He has a little bit of concaveness to his face, but not nearly the exaggeration you see now. Looking at some modern day Arabs, the concave face has gone so far that it is almost to the point of being grotesque, not beautiful. Don't get me wrong, Arabs and Arab crosses are my favorite breeds, but I prefer ones that look a little more natural.
> 
> ...


It looks almost like they're trying to make it look like a dog...:shock: well to me anyway.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Chasin Ponies said:


> I think I am most disappointed in the breeding of the Morgan horse. I grew up loving the looks and mentality of the stout, well built, good looking, sensible horse that you could do almost _anything_ with. At this point it's been many years since I've seen one that doesn't look or act like a Saddlebred (and I like Saddlebreds too!)
> 
> Also disappointed in the tiny, high strung, unstable Arabians they are breeding. A friend of mine has a couple of substantial, tall, sensible, great looking Arabs from about 20 years ago but obviously they are getting to the end of their useful life. She had 1 particular breeder that she was going to for these but he has since had to go out of business because his horses are out of style.
> 
> Sad that people chose style over substance. My feeling is, keep the breeds as they were originally intended and then let people chose the breed they like.



Saddlebred's have always been and will likely always be my favorite breed. Other breeds high oh my list were always Arabians and Morgans. It makes me sad however, that breeders seem to have turned their Arabians and Morgans into Saddlebreds. Why would they do this when there are already Saddlebred horses out there? Why take an already amazing breed and try to basically turn it into another already existing breed? If one wants a Saddlebred, get a Saddlebred and allow the Arabian to be and Arabian. 

The movement of both Morgans and Arabians has changed so much as well. They move like Saddlebreds in the park classes. 

I may be in the don't breed mixed breed horses boat but I am also in the don't breed MOST purebred horses as well. People should take great care in breeding horses before the breeds go further down the hill and flat out into the trash.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

My mustang is my favorite horse and mustangs are my favorite breed next to the QH. At 17 my mare can go longer than my DH's QHxPaint and my sisters STBxTB. I bred her to a foundation QH cause I like the way he is built like he could handle a lot of work not like most QH's I see that look like they could barely make it through a show. My mare is one of the healthiest I have ever met and she has never been lame a day in her life.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Inga said:


> Saddlebred's have always been and will likely always be my favorite breed. Other breeds high oh my list were always Arabians and Morgans. It makes me sad however, that breeders seem to have turned their Arabians and Morgans into Saddlebreds. Why would they do this when there are already Saddlebred horses out there? Why take an already amazing breed and try to basically turn it into another already existing breed? If one wants a Saddlebred, get a Saddlebred and allow the Arabian to be and Arabian.
> 
> The movement of both Morgans and Arabians has changed so much as well. They move like Saddlebreds in the park classes.
> 
> I may be in the don't breed mixed breed horses boat but I am also in the don't breed MOST purebred horses as well. People should take great care in breeding horses before the breeds go further down the hill and flat out into the trash.


SOME. I don't see much Saddlebred when I look out my window...


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I hate using mobiles...


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

WSArabians said:


> I hate using mobiles...


Gosh, I love your horses! Love the last three pics, too. I have a weakness for bays with chrome. <3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Gosh, I love your horses! Love the last three pics, too. I have a weakness for bays with chrome. <3
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too! It always seems my chestnuts end up with the most chrome though LOL


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I want to make the last pic of your previous post (the bay with the blaze that's kind of facing the camera at an angle) into a poster and hang it on my wall. *drool*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I want to make the last pic of your previous post (the bay with the blaze that's kind of facing the camera at an angle) into a poster and hang it on my wall. *drool*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks! That's my reiner, although I think she just wants to be a trail pony now. 
Not sure why those last two pictures won't show. :/


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I can see all of them....could in your first post. Gorgeous horses!!


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Since 1981 I have bred my Arabians to have the bone and the good round hoof of the old desert horse. My first Arabians back then were desert bred. I don't do the halter thing, nor do I care about the Main Ring, as it's so sweetly referred to. I want a good sturdy intelligent horse I can USE. And one that is as trainable as it is beautiful.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Glynnis said:


> Thanks for posting Skowronek, Jaydee! That's exactly who I thought of when the original post mentioned the Arabian breed.
> 
> The other thing I notice about the earlier generations of Arabs is they don't have that super dishy face. Below is Measoud, a foundation Crabbet stallion. He has a little bit of concaveness to his face, but not nearly the exaggeration you see now. Looking at some modern day Arabs, the concave face has gone so far that it is almost to the point of being grotesque, not beautiful. Don't get me wrong, Arabs and Arab crosses are my favorite breeds, but I prefer ones that look a little more natural.
> 
> ...


I believe that poor thing is Namuska. I'm told she did NOT pass that on to her foals. Blessing, that.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Inga said:


> Saddlebred's have always been and will likely always be my favorite breed. Other breeds high oh my list were always Arabians and Morgans. It makes me sad however, that breeders seem to have turned their Arabians and Morgans into Saddlebreds. Why would they do this when there are already Saddlebred horses out there? Why take an already amazing breed and try to basically turn it into another already existing breed? If one wants a Saddlebred, get a Saddlebred and allow the Arabian to be and Arabian.
> 
> The movement of both Morgans and Arabians has changed so much as well. They move like Saddlebreds in the park classes.
> 
> I may be in the don't breed mixed breed horses boat but I am also in the don't breed MOST purebred horses as well. People should take great care in breeding horses before the breeds go further down the hill and flat out into the trash.


There are plenty of arabians that look like they have for centuries. I own about 25. 
The arabians bred for specific disciplines and events are not the breed standard.
Those horses that race, work cattle, jump, and finish the Tevis are versatile and ARE the breed standard.
Park horses , Country English pleasure, western pleasure and halter are new trends that demand more extreme action and type to stay relevant and interesting.
Pleasure bred and halter bred QH's are not that breeds standard.
yet they all get the attention , the big cash prizes and stud fees. 
It is up to the other 95% of horse owners to change that and more breeders to ignore trends that will be irrelevant in the near future. Shalom


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

squirrelfood said:


> Since 1981 I have bred my Arabians to have the bone and the good round hoof of the old desert horse. My first Arabians back then were desert bred. I don't do the halter thing, nor do I care about the Main Ring, as it's so sweetly referred to. I want a good sturdy intelligent horse I can USE. And one that is as trainable as it is beautiful.


Amen Sister. You got my vote. Shalom


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## kimberlyrae1993 (Mar 20, 2013)

Subbing really loving this thread!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

smrobs said:


> I can see all of them....could in your first post. Gorgeous horses!!


Heh. Not for me. LOL
Thanks! They took me from Minnesota to California and back to Canada to get but I am happy with them. This is my 2014 filly Kheeper. Best of both her Russian dam amd Crabbet sire.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> Thanks! That's my reiner, although I think she just wants to be a trail pony now.


Maybe she wants to move to the next province and be a Western Dressage pony:wink:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Maybe she wants to move to the next province and be a Western Dressage pony:wink:


Or she could come to Arizona. There's a big hunk of a draft cross down here who would LOVE to have a girlfriend. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Maybe she wants to move to the next province and be a Western Dressage pony:wink:


If you can pry her out of my hands... But she would be good. She has quite a bit Western Pleasure wins... wouldn't be too far to from that to WD.
But, don't get any ideas. :lol:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Interesting how the same changes can be seen across the board in ALL breeds..


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

WSArabians said:


> If you can pry her out of my hands... But she would be good. She has quite a bit Western Pleasure wins... wouldn't be too far to from that to WD.
> But, don't get any ideas. :lol:


OK ladies I have told both of you that it is cruel to keep those noble desert steeds in the Artic.
To prove you and golden horse are concerned arabian owners both need to ship your wonderful horses to texas . At least we have a desert somewhere out west and they wont have to wear snowshoes.
Your horses welfare should be your first concern and you both may visit at any time. 
Icelandics would be a much better fit and might enjoy a warmer climate in Canada. Shalom


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm sure the girls would be only to pleased to head south, especially Gracie who does actually feel the cold....


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## DreaMy (Jul 1, 2014)

I agree with the poster who said some of those pics are poor examples (the exception of the breeds not necessarily the rule)

I've been riding an APHA gelding that has points in APHA world for halter, his hooves are saucers, he is relatively tall and lean, the only tie to him being a halter horse is his natural muscle.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Golden Horse your ponys look SOOO pleased :rofl:


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

This is why I really, really LOVE my Curlies. They are bred from the mustangs, to be real using horses and have the hardy structure of the mustang and some very decisive out crosses have made very good horses. Plus most outcrossing was done before a lot of breeds took a turn for the worst. Now there are so many registries and so many ideas on what the Curly horse should be, but every single one of my Curlies, regardless of breeding, have wonderful feet, dense bone, and an overall hardy structure. I will never let that be bred out of my Curlies. When my stallion was vet checked, she said he had some big feet. I snickered because he is just a little guy around 14.1-14.2, and he has some nice feet on him. But she said it was very refreshing to see feet like his. They were not too big for his size, but just the fact that a horse his size had enough hoof to carry himself and more was astonishing.

Here is a quote from Joe Mead, a very passionate breeder of Curly horses.

"Don't get mad at me, but ..Quit breeding ponies and start using your Curlies. Drive them to town for groceries. Leave them outside instead of in box stalls and cut out the sweet feed and grain. Pull the shoes. If he can't go barefoot, sell him, as he isn't fit to be bred. Provided good grass hay and 2-1/2 pounds of alfalfa and maybe ½ pound of Calf Manna per day. Keep our Curlies natural and cull (neuter, not kill, do not breed with inferior stock) not on looks but on performance; the looks will come with it."

This is exactly what I intend to uphold. A horse with a solid mind, a solid build, and a solid hoof! Only has one of my Curlies ever been shod, which was at an Amish trainer who wouldn't do it any other way. That is the last time she'll have shoes on her feet. They just don't need it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

The only time mine are shod is for reining. Slide a horse without plates and he can hurt himself. And mine are turned out in some of the rockiest country this side of the Rockies! Breed for good feet, and shoes are an afterthought.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> OK ladies I have told both of you that it is cruel to keep those noble desert steeds in the Artic.
> To prove you and golden horse are concerned arabian owners both need to ship your wonderful horses to texas . At least we have a desert somewhere out west and they wont have to wear snowshoes.
> Your horses welfare should be your first concern and you both may visit at any time.
> Icelandics would be a much better fit and might enjoy a warmer climate in Canada. Shalom


I am tempted to get an Arizona winter home sometimes! 
Mine are tough though, and my chubbies would probably get heat stroke in that sauna! LOL


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

squirrelfood said:


> The only time mine are shod is for reining. Slide a horse without plates and he can hurt himself. And mine are turned out in some of the rockiest country this side of the Rockies! Breed for good feet, and shoes are an afterthought.


Ditto. Sliding plates only.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

I haven't read all the pages so forgive me if I'm repeating something...

I shudder at what's becoming of thoroughbreds solely because that's the breed I have the most experience with. I used to work for an equine vet that specialized in breeding. His biggest client was a thoroughbred breeder who bred racing thoroughbreds. He boarded more than 50 brood mares at the clinic. A few of the brood mares were nice mares, who had earned good money and remained sound throughout there careers but most of them had earned little before retiring due to injury. Of course they retired for breeding instead of becoming pasture pets or pleasure horses, because he wanted to squeeze as much money out of them as he could. This man bred these mares year after year, and wondered why he kept getting so many low-earning foals who couldn't stay sound on the track, or even in the pasture. He frequently had young horses on stall rest for pasture injuries before they ever even saw a track. These horses were big-bodied, athletic power houses standing on poorly-conformed, fine-boned legs, with forever-long canon bones that just begged for a tendon injury. And they had small, weak hooves that couldn't stay whole without shoes.

I'm also saddened by the evolution of many warmbloods. Warmbloods used to be a combination of hot and cold blooded breeds, well-bred for a purpose. They had the athleticism and heart of the hot blood with the bone and power of the cold blood. I still drool over the warmbloods with good bone, big, solid feet, and an impressive amount of athletic ability, but the market is starting to flood with all these "warmbloods" that look no different than the average thoroughbred. Don't get me wrong. I still love a good thoroughbred! But some lines of warmblood are being bred so light I don't think they should be called warmblood anymore.

Breeders and riders are moving ever more towards a lighter standard. I own a half draft-half TB cross. She's way heavier than most modern warmbloods, but my old boss's registered Oldenburg mare, who's now pushing 30, is bigger than my draft cross. That Oldenburg's dinner-plate-sized hooves dwarf my mare's, and that Oldenburg retired sound after jumping at grand prix level!

I just have to roll my eyes when someone approaches me at a show and tells me how my big-boned draft cross will cripple under her own weight if I continue to ride and especially jump her. ...As they hold the reins on their fine-boned thoroughbred who needs shoes to stay sound and has already suffered at least three tendon injuries. My hefty cross is 9 years old, barefoot, and has never been lame.

Really, it just comes down to appearances. For most people, it's not about whether your horse can run all day, stay sound with little maintenance etc. It's about being flashy and impressing the judges. In a modern world where survival is easy, hardiness and practicality as traits have fallen by the wayside. In it's place, refinement, and beauty have risen in importance.

You see it in areas other than horse breeds. If you look at how dog breeds have changed, you'll see an even more dramatic difference. And if you look at how expectations of human body type and fashion has changed, you'll be disgusted too. A healthy BMI is no longer fashionable, but it should be!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

kiltsrhott said:


> A healthy BMI is no longer fashionable, but it should be!


I agree with everything you say, apart from this, yes we have fewer fit people around, but healthy BMI, no, lets get away from that stupid measure and start using a measure that more correctly reflects when a person is in a healthy weight range, given their build and level of fitness.:wink:


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

WSArabians said:


> I am tempted to get an Arizona winter home sometimes!
> Mine are tough though, and my chubbies would probably get heat stroke in that sauna! LOL


I have this nice little place in Arkansas for sale, complete with 17 stall barn........:lol:


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> I agree with everything you say, apart from this, yes we have fewer fit people around, but healthy BMI, no, lets get away from that stupid measure and start using a measure that more correctly reflects when a person is in a healthy weight range, given their build and level of fitness.:wink:


BMI'S LOL
According to that I'm overweight at 136lbs. 
I don't want to see one for horses... I KNOW mine will be obese


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

squirrelfood said:


> I have this nice little place in Arkansas for sale, complete with 17 stall barn........:lol:


Very tempting, but actually I would love to move the whole of Canada down a little bit, great country carp weather!


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

squirrelfood said:


> I have this nice little place in Arkansas for sale, complete with 17 stall barn........:lol:


That's what I want! I'm just to darn prideful to actually leave Canada LOL 
I just need a barn like that will a great heating system!


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Y'all have WAAY too much winter. :smile:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

squirrelfood said:


> Y'all have WAAY too much winter. :smile:


That is true, and this year summer has not put any effort into balancing out the cold months, it is getting depressing.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

I used to live in Iowa, so I had my fill of the cold wet stuff. We cut hay here the first time about May, and the last one usually in September. Weather willing, there's often 4 cuttings. Still needing the A/C this week too.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

squirrelfood said:


> I used to live in Iowa, so I had my fill of the cold wet stuff. We cut hay here the first time about May, and the last one usually in September. Weather willing, there's often 4 cuttings. Still needing the A/C this week too.












We didn't cut hay until August, because it wouldn't quit raining, we didn't get it all baled, because it still wouldn't quit raining. We haven't started combining yet because nothing will ripen.....this is beyond odd this year.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

WS, I love all of your horses and I wish more Arab breeders were like you. My horse growing up was more similar to the horses you breed and a lot of Arab enthusiasts would turn their nose up at her because she wasn't as delicate as many Arabs. She was mostly Polish bred and she looked it, being broader in the chest and wider through the girth and barrel - I used to ride her for miles in a day and she was in wicked good shape, but still kept the huge barrel! She also had no issue keeping up with a rigorous show schedule or a long trail ride and stayed sound until the day she died.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> I agree with everything you say, apart from this, yes we have fewer fit people around, but healthy BMI, no, lets get away from that stupid measure and start using a measure that more correctly reflects when a person is in a healthy weight range, given their build and level of fitness.:wink:



With that statement I was referring to the fact that today's standard of beauty and fitness is thinner = more beautiful. Most models are unusually tall and so thin that many of them have serious eating disorders in order to maintain their image. People should be striving for HEALTHY weight goals, instead of everyone striving to lose as much as they possibly can and be as thin as they possibly can. YOUR personal goal weight/BMI can vary based on your build and muscle mass. My point is that people should be shooting for HEALTHY goals, not just to fit into that size 0 pair of pants or achieve the infamous "thigh gap". It just makes me sad to see my teenage sister and all of her friends going on "diets" at their age because they all think they're too fat when they're not.

Sorry, I should have explained that one a bit more when I first said it. Depending on what chart I refer to, my BMI is either overweight or on the upper end of healthy, but all my measurements are average. Many of us hard-working horse people probably fall in that category. Muscle weighs more than fat and throws off the calculations. Not everyone is built the same either. I'm not fat. I'm healthy, and I'm happy with my weight, but I'd be a plus sized model if I ever entered the industry, and that's just terrible! If I ever wanted to attain a modern standard of beauty I'd have to stop eating altogether!


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

I weigh about 125 which is the most I've ever weighed but I naturally am skinny and have never done anything to try and stay at a certain weight. I don't diet since I love junk food wayyy too much!  I am also pretty sedentary but I have a very fast metabolism and I try to stay active to keep up with my horses and dogs. Whereas my DH tries dieting and gains weight he also eats healthy and still cant lose what he wants. But if he were to get down to 170 he gets super sick. To him being a little heavy is healthy where I am the opposite I am perfectly healthy being skinny.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

danicelia24 said:


> I weigh about 125 which is the most I've ever weighed but I naturally am skinny and have never done anything to try and stay at a certain weight. I don't diet since I love junk food wayyy too much!  I am also pretty sedentary but I have a very fast metabolism and I try to stay active to keep up with my horses and dogs. Whereas my DH tries dieting and gains weight he also eats healthy and still cant lose what he wants. But if he were to get down to 170 he gets super sick. To him being a little heavy is healthy where I am the opposite I am perfectly healthy being skinny.


EXACTLY! People should aspire to be healthy. Whether that be on the leaner or curvier side, people should work towards goals that are realistic and not shoot for unrealistic and unattainable ones, or strive for extremes at the expense of their comfort, and health. I used to have friends that weighed barely 110lbs soaking wet and ate very little in an attempt to lose "just 5 more pounds", and then they wonder why they want to sleep 12 hours per day and have dizzy spells all the time. If you weigh 125 and feel good there, then FABULOUS! But if you weigh 180 and feel good there, that should be okay too, without society fat shaming! I just think the ideal beauty standards portrayed in the media should be closer to what an average, healthy person should look like, but now we're getting off topic!

...Just like some breeders breed so hard for smaller hooves, smaller ears, fuller tails, dishier faces, rare colours, a quick buck etc. and wonder why traits such as hardiness, trainability and good temperament sometimes disappear in the pursuit of other goals.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

kiltsrhott said:


> ...Just like some breeders breed so hard for smaller hooves, smaller ears, fuller tails, dishier faces, rare colours, a quick buck etc. and wonder why traits such as hardiness, trainability and good temperament sometimes disappear in the pursuit of other goals.


My old BO said the funniest thing once. We were talking about a horse he had gone to look at that was extremely halter-bred. Sickle hocked, no bone, upright everywhere, tiny hooves, etc. The only thing the horse had going for it was it was a bald-faced black with two blue eyes and was fat and shiny. My BO says "That horse was dumber than a box of rocks, but boy, he sure was pretty."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Glynnis said:


> WS, I love all of your horses and I wish more Arab breeders were like you. My horse growing up was more similar to the horses you breed and a lot of Arab enthusiasts would turn their nose up at her because she wasn't as delicate as many Arabs. She was mostly Polish bred and she looked it, being broader in the chest and wider through the girth and barrel - I used to ride her for miles in a day and she was in wicked good shape, but still kept the huge barrel! She also had no issue keeping up with a rigorous show schedule or a long trail ride and stayed sound until the day she died.


Thank you Glynnis! I'm not the only one, for sure. We just aren't what is advertised because we're less pretty and more functional. And that's fine by me! I've had a few remarks of "They aren't...pretty, pretty." In one ear thing. You don't like them, that's fine. I'm sure you can find a breeder that does, because I won't change to fit the fads. 
We had an old Polish mare that we just lost this spring. She had about six foals and she never, ever lost that sprung out barrel either! They just seem to stay out after a few foals. She ALWAYS looked either extremely obese or pregnant. Even in the last eight years of her life as a pasture pet, she still did. :lol:


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My old BO said the funniest thing once. We were talking about a horse he had gone to look at that was extremely halter-bred. Sickle hocked, no bone, upright everywhere, tiny hooves, etc. The only thing the horse had going for it was it was a bald-faced black with two blue eyes and was fat and shiny. My BO says "That horse was dumber than a box of rocks, but boy, he sure was pretty."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or his head and colour was, anyway.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

danicelia24 said:


> I weigh about 125 which is the most I've ever weighed but I naturally am skinny and have never done anything to try and stay at a certain weight. I don't diet since I love junk food wayyy too much!  I am also pretty sedentary but I have a very fast metabolism and I try to stay active to keep up with my horses and dogs. Whereas my DH tries dieting and gains weight he also eats healthy and still cant lose what he wants. But if he were to get down to 170 he gets super sick. To him being a little heavy is healthy where I am the opposite I am perfectly healthy being skinny.


I'd like to get down some. I gained some weight when I couldn't walk for six months and I sorta slacked about getting it off again. 136 doesn't seem like much but I'm a very small frame person so it shows. Another goal this winter! 
My horses all need to lose about 700lbs.... :lol:


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

All this talk about feet...

When I was still breeding Thunder this lady came to check him out for her mare. She was an AQHA/APHA judge and kept going on and on about how big his feet were. I was able to bite my tongue for a while but about the 4th or 5th time she said he's the best conformed stallion I've looked at EXCEPT FOR THOSE FEET (she was really stressing what I typed in caps), I told her he's a big horse and he needs those big feet since I breed for good sound using horses and not ones that just stand in an arena and maybe you'd be happier if you kept looking. She left and I never heard from her again. LOL


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> There are plenty of arabians that look like they have for centuries. I own about 25.
> The arabians bred for specific disciplines and events are not the breed standard.
> Those horses that race, work cattle, jump, and finish the Tevis are versatile and ARE the breed standard.
> Park horses , Country English pleasure, western pleasure and halter are new trends that demand more extreme action and type to stay relevant and interesting.
> ...



I agree with all of this. Like you said, they get the attention and the stud fees. When newcomers to a breed are looking to the breed magazines, what do they see? If they do go to a breed show, what do they see? I like the old horses, in MOST breeds. I miss sitting on the rail at open shows and seeing 3 very distinct different breeds coming into the park classes. Now... the 3 look pretty much the same. 

As much as I love Saddlebreds and how they move, I also love a natural moving Arabian. Light on their feet, throwing their legs out in front of them and floating across the ground. 

It is unfortunate that in so many breeds, attention is often given to the wrong people and others try to be like them even when it comes to changing their favorite breed.


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## luvmydrafts (Dec 26, 2013)

...what does "modern breeding" have against barrels and feet, anyways? less is more according to them, for almost all the breeds...

What also happens as you breed for lighter and lighter build is temperament also changes--more high strung, nervous, oversensitive...in general...

I'll take my chunky monkey old style draft boys over those "modern" Belgians any day...but no matter where you look today it is very hard to find a draft, any draft, with good length of pelvis and huge back end they used to have by default.

Lippizaner and Thoroughbred look about the only two that weren't spoiled...


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

luvmydrafts said:


> ...what does "modern breeding" have against barrels and feet, anyways? less is more according to them, for almost all the breeds...
> 
> What also happens as you breed for lighter and lighter build is temperament also changes--more high strung, nervous, oversensitive...in general...
> 
> ...


Except the TBs crappy hooves and mostly light bones.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

And if we're going to be persnickety the Lippizaner lost A LOT of genetic diversity after the war and lost almost all of it's color and some of it's original type. The modern Lippizaner has outside influence from arabian, (supposedly) thoroughbred and other breeds from the mare lines. I get you that genetic integrity was threatened but...


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

The Morgans look Saddlebred type because many Morgan barns kept a Saddlebred stallion to breed mares to, back before DNA.


And TWH's don't have "broke tails" for that matter.

People tend to want a pretty head instead of a common one, so will lean towards mares and stallions that throw that.

The old style Saddlebreds and Walkers were heavier than many you see now, and very closely resembled each other too, which makes sense.

And think the "now" pictures were chose to show as far from the original as could get, as there are more than a few breeds that meet the breed standard still. And not fair to compare an aged horse, particularly a stallion, with a young one.


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## luvmydrafts (Dec 26, 2013)

any breed with a closed studbook has only a dead end ahead of it, at some point...at least where "purebreds" of that breed are concerned...if no new blood can ever enter the gene pool then its vitality will trickle away and eventually be lost, even if type and ability is preserved..this is regardless of breed and regardless of what animal. even with a "large" number of founder animals it is only a matter of time..


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

wakiya said:


> And if we're going to be persnickety the Lippizaner lost A LOT of genetic diversity after the war and lost almost all of it's color and some of it's original type. The modern Lippizaner has outside influence from arabian, (supposedly) thoroughbred and other breeds from the mare lines. I get you that genetic integrity was threatened but...


You can't prove a thing with old paintings. Artistic license and all that.............


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

It is well known that they came in many colors. It is also known that they were mostly spanish in type and I now see many arabian traits particularly in the hind end...


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

STILL can't prove anything with old paintings


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm not trying to "prove" anything with old paintings I'm using it to illustrate a point. If you want I'll get the oldest pictures possible of lippizans but they'll probably still be a but off. Short of time traveling sometimes paintings are all we have.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

http://stablemade.com/horsecare/images/Articles/lipizzaner_old1.jpg

Note the flat Arabian like croup. This is what I'm talking about changing the hind end.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

1906 http://stablemade.com/horsecare/images/Articles/Lipizzaner/lip_karst_herd.jpg


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

This website shows variable types
http://stablemade.com/horsecare/horsebreeds/lipizzaner.htm


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