# Boundary dispute question



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Hi everyone, we’re looking at buying a house and land. When I was there looking at it, I noticed that the (very old) fence is not located along the boundary marked by the survey. The fence is supposed to mark a boundary between this land and the empty forested parcel next to the land. I want to have the property re-surveyed to answer the question of whether the fence is on the property line or not. But even if the survey says that it is, can the owner of the other property just come back and get his own survey and say that it isn’t? If I want to get the issue settled, do I need to get the other property owner on board now, somehow? Would I have to have some sort of legal document drawn up? Or could I get the county involved in some way? 

I asked the current owners of this property what the deal was and they were like, "Yeah, that's weird, we don't know either."

I’ve never encountered this issue before and I honestly have no idea what to do. The place we want to buy is wonderful, but I don’t want to build a fence now and find out later that there’s a dispute about it. Any advice? Would you hold off buying until that got worked out? We’re actually under contract now but still in the option period.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

Surveys are done mathematically from fixed govt. markers and are by their nature impartial. Doesn't matter who hires the survey company they are bound by law to do it correctly and if found being partial to the paying party they would lose their license to survey in every state I have ever lived in.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

AndyTheCornbread said:


> Surveys are done mathematically from fixed govt. markers and are by their nature impartial. Doesn't matter who hires the survey company they are bound by law to do it correctly and if found being partial to the paying party they would lose their license to survey in every state I have ever lived in.


So if I have a survey done and it says that the boundary is in a certain place, that's it? No room for arguing? It's not possible for the other property owner to come back with a counter-survey, because there's no way that two different surveryers could find two different boundaries? (I hope that question makes sense)


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## lb27312 (Aug 25, 2018)

How do you know the fence is on the property line? 

When you buy a house you usually have to buy title insurance... something that usually you don't know you are paying for but it's included in closing costs. Never heard of anyone using until I moved where I am currently, the person behind me put a fence up on another neighbors property because she thought that's where her property line was, ended up getting reimbursed for moving the fence. 

I put my fence up 10'+ inside my property line, not sure why just what I figured I wanted to do, now kinda wish I put it on the property line

Exciting on the new place!


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

ACinATX said:


> So if I have a survey done and it says that the boundary is in a certain place, that's it? No room for arguing? It's not possible for the other property owner to come back with a counter-survey, because there's no way that two different surveryers could find two different boundaries? (I hope that question makes sense)


Correct because land markers are fixed by the govt literally forever the area described in your land deed will always measure out exactly the same no matter who does it. If there is a discrepancy between two surveys it would probably have to go to court and one of the two firms could lose their license to do surveys within the state. Becoming a registered land surveyor is a big deal and it takes a lot of schooling to get your degree. It is a very math heavy curriculum. No surveyor is going to risk everything they went through to get their license simply to make an extra buck. I have heard of cases where they were offered millions of dollars to fudge surveys and they turned it down flat because they know as soon as it is challenged they would get found out.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

The only time surveys change is if a govt. marker is found to be in the wrong place and is moved. It doesn't happen very often but when it does it used to be that all surveys done from that marker had to be updated. Now days the locations of corner markers are digital high precision GPS coordinates in most states and the survey is done with a super high precision GPS and laser measuring equipment that gets surveys down to the sub-inch in accuracy.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

lb27312 said:


> How do you know the fence is on the property line?
> 
> Exciting on the new place!


I don't know that the fence is on the property line, that's the problem. There is what is presumably a surveying stake for the property line, and it's a good ten feet away from the fence line. The length of the property on that side is about 1/4 of a mile, so that times 10 feet is a lot of land (to this suburbanite) to potentially lose.

Yes it's SUPER exciting. It's an absolutely amazing place, 10 acres and a house, barn already there (although needs work), pastures ready to go, lots of trees, nice house, and maybe a five minute walk into a small town, public transportation, foot ferry to big town. If we end up buying it we're actually going to have to rent it out for a few years, and I will list it here. I really, really hope it works out. I also appreciate your post about building your fence inside the property line, maybe that explains what happened here. The whole thing is really concerning to me.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I had neighbors the sued each other over a boundary marker. The one neighbor was tearing down her old house and putting up another one so had a survey done. Her surveyor said her property line was about 20 feet on the neighbors property and literally right through the corner of his house! He hired his own surveyor who measured it out differently - they went to court. The guys whose house was in jeopardy won - and the new house neighbor went to court again and lost again. it was very expensive for both parties. The new house surveyor never lost his licence he showed the pin he used to measure from and it was put their by the county. for some othe reason - county was at fault.

Just be careful court costs are horrible. And there is something called adverse possession - even if the fence is on your property other property owner can claim adverse possession if they maintained that property for 20 years or more


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

My neighbors to the north west recently built a fence between our two properties and they set theirs back a few feet from my fence which runs directly along the survey line. Some people do that because they aren't sure exactly where the survey line is and don't want to pay for a survey and don't want to upset the neighbors accidentally. Me personally I use a laser equipment and I build my fences straight down the property line set by the survey company. I want to fence in every inch I own and not loose even a tiny piece. I would much rather pay for a certified survey than lose even a foot of land or a single tree along my property lines. It might sound a bit tight fisted but I paid for it and I want exactly what I paid for, not a penny less.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

carshon said:


> I had neighbors the sued each other over a boundary marker. The one neighbor was tearing down her old house and putting up another one so had a survey done. Her surveyor said her property line was about 20 feet on the neighbors property and literally right through the corner of his house! He hired his own surveyor who measured it out differently - they went to court. The guys whose house was in jeopardy won - and the new house neighbor went to court again and lost again. it was very expensive for both parties. The new house surveyor never lost his licence he showed the pin he used to measure from and it was put their by the county. for some othe reason - county was at fault.
> 
> Just be careful court costs are horrible. And there is something called adverse possession - even if the fence is on your property other property owner can claim adverse possession if they maintained that property for 20 years or more


I have heard of this happening as well but it is extremely rare. If the govt marker is at fault you can generally recoup costs and then some by suing the govt. Thanks to Jimmy Carter your legal expenses to sue the govt get paid if you can show the govt's mistake caused you any harm financial or otherwise. In your neighbors case it certainly did. They should have a really good case to have both parties re-imbursed by the govt entity that made the mistake by placing a bad marker. Thank goodness for GPS corner markers now days, looking for brass pins has become largely a thing of the past.

Not all states have squatting/adverse possession laws. If you live in a state that does they have to show that they have maintained the fence and improved the property on their side generally to make it stick. There are only a few states where you can simply put up a fence, let it sit for 20 years and have the land be yours. Also they have to have paid the taxes on the land they are attempting to squat on.

Because I work on engineering computer hardware and software for engineering and surveying firms I deal with the accuracy of surveys stuff a lot in my main line of work. I work as the county brand inspector as well but that isn't a full time job anymore in Montana if you want to make a living wage.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

carshon said:


> Just be careful court costs are horrible. And there is something called adverse possession - even if the fence is on your property other property owner can claim adverse possession if they maintained that property for 20 years or more


Thanks, that's good to know. I am a little concerned about adverse possession also. But the other property is just an unfenced (except for "my" fence) unused piece of forest that has not been "maintained," no land has been taken care of, the property has never been used (aside from, it looks to me, having timber harvested off it once maybe fifty years ago). I am thinking that since the owner of that property has never possessed or made any use of the land in question, that there wouldn't be a claim. If that makes sense. However, that piece of land is for sale and I am a little concerned what might happen if it were actually to sell. Although having seen and walked it myself, I can't imagine anyone paying anything near what they're asking for it.

Actually I was also thinking about making a super low-ball offer for that property That would solve my problems right there. But I doubt they'd be interested in a super low-ball offer.

Anyway, yes, I'm a little concerned about the adverse possession thing, but looking around on the internet it seems like the person would have to be doing something with the land, like actually "possessing" it, for that to apply. I hope.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Fences do not need to be placed on a property line. Fences are often set back to allow for easements, access for repairs etc. Get it surveyed if you are uncertain. I remember my Spanish speaking neighbors did not understand that the row of bushes they planted along the fence where actually on our property because the fence was set 3 feet back from the property line. But the bushes did look nice.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

You had the property surveyed and nobody is on the other property so just move the fence to the property line and it's done. I'm one of those who would put the fence on the property line myself because people often wrongly think that the fence is the marker. 

Really, ten acres is not that much. You will want every inch that you buy, I'd move the fence.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I talked to my realtor. It doesn't look like we're going to be able to get actual surveryers out there in time, so he wants to go with what's called a "recovery surveyer" which is just someone who finds the original surverying markers and tells you where the lines are based on that. However, I just heard from him that "The corners were relocated" in 2017, and now I have to figure out what that means.

There were some things going into this that I expected, e.g. well and septic inspection, fences in poor condition, bears in the forset, etc., but I didn't think the boundary line would be an issue. This seems like it's going to be a big learning experience. I'll be posting for advice on building fences soon enough. But SO excited to hopefully finally have some real land!

ETA: @4horses thanks for that explanation. It makes sense. However there is no easement here, and not much access either, as overgrown as that forest land is. I wish the current homeowners could tell me what's going on, but they didn't build the fence.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

On our property in California the surveyed boundaries turned out to be very important. I have two pertinent stories about them. 

First story, which wasn't actually our story but our nearby neighbor's: the survey was done wrong. It was done in the 1970's by, seemingly, a drunk. Turned out he was ten feet off the whole long side, and the rancher who owned the property on the other side was being shorted. But the rancher wasn't a fool like most people. He knew that happy neighbors are a lot more important than getting what's rightfully yours. He just gave it to them. Problem solved. 

Second story, more complicated. Same developer who hired the drunken surveyor, bulldozed a road up the hill to our property which actually cut across someone else's, and then wove so that guy's property was also on our side of the road. Original owners of the other property said, oh, let's just agree to swap the two slivers and call it good. Handshake agreement. All was peaceful, until they sold to a pair of young lawyers. Oh brother. Threats of lawsuits, demands that we pay for a new survey (like it's OUR fault?), official-looking pompous letters (I mean they lived next door, right?). Under counsel from my dad's old lawyer, we totally ignored them. Whenever they asked about it we just said we were still considering it seriously and would get back to them.

Eventually they got divorced and moved away. The new people couldn't care less. 

So there is certainly such a thing as a wrong survey (maybe not today), and it causes as much hassle as someone wants to make about it.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

We bought our land three years ago and it had not changed hands for many years prior to that. The one fence that was there was/is old and not in the best shape in all areas. At the end of our property is a creek and the fence is really messed up by the creek. We noticed that the property line stake was about 10 feet on the other side of the fence. It looks like over time when the creek would flood it might have washed the fence over some. Either that or the people that put the fence up many years ago just decided to put it where it made sense instead of based on the survey.
Anyway, my husband found out who owned the adjacent land and contacted them. No one lives there, it's a big hay field with some wooded area near the creek. They said ok, they weren't surprised since the fence was there for so long. No big deal, we'll just move the fence over when/if it's rebuilt some day. It really doesn't amount to a lot of land, but it does make a difference because on the other side of the fence is an area where you can easily access the creek. Most of our creek frontage is a steep drop off. Animals can traverse some of it, but we can't...except in that spot! 

I'm sure there are times - as mentioned above - where there can/will be a dispute. But sometimes its as easy as finding the owner, letting them know what you've found out, and discussing it with them. They might not even care, which was our case. 

When we put the fence in on the other side of our property (had been one large property that was split up), our fence builder was awesome and looked at the survey to put the fence directly on the property line.


BTW...when we bought our place the place next to us (other side than the old fence) was also for sale. We contemplated buying half of it and seeing if the guy on the other side wanted to buy the other half. Unfortunately, he wasn't interested. We couldn't afford the entire place so had to pass. But, the seller did offer to sell it to us for less per acre than what we paid for ours. He knew it would be an easy process since we'd already been through it once. So, you never know...if that other place is for sale you could always make an offer and see what happens. Even a low ball offer sometimes sounds better to a seller than hanging onto something for another month.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Kriva said:


> So, you never know...if that other place is for sale you could always make an offer and see what happens. Even a low ball offer sometimes sounds better to a seller than hanging onto something for another month.


I guess that's true. The forest land has been for sale for three years, and they just a few months ago dropped the price from $650k to $400k, which was what prompted my trip up there (20 acres RIGHT on the edge of town! Wow, what a deal!). Then I walked it and realized why they had dropped the price -- it's zoned one house per five acres but you'd be lucky to get one house on the whole thing. It's 80% ravines and wetlands, and the remaining 20% is still mostly sloped. What I would offer them would be one zero less and then some, and I can't imagine they'd take it. On the other hand, at least then they could stop paying taxes on it. If it's as worthless as I think it is, they can sit on it for another couple of years and then maybe they'll be ready to talk.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

That's odd it looks like a bunch of posts are missing out of this thread now. Did something happen? I didn't see anything that violated the board policies, all posts seemed to be nice and a good discussion. Did the board server glitch or something?


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

AndyTheCornbread said:


> That's odd it looks like a bunch of posts are missing out of this thread now. Did something happen? I didn't see anything that violated the board policies, all posts seemed to be nice and a good discussion. Did the board server glitch or something?


All of the sudden that seems to be happening on multiple threads. Maybe this post will disappear, too....


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## rmissildine (Feb 1, 2019)

AC,
Check with a local real estate lawyer about "adverse possession " as carshon said.
In some states, the other owner has to do nothing as far as improvements or up keep. Here in Alabama, if a fence has been in place for at least 10 years, then that "can" become the new property line. Same thing with an access road or driveway to the property. 

We found this out at our old place when the owner of the property behind and to the side of us tried to close off access to our property because the access road was actually on his property. Since the access road was in place long before any houses were put there, he had to grant us access to our property. Also, he couldn't close off the entrance from the main road without providing us access which he would have had to "provide" or pay for.
Also, we were not "land locked", where someone has to provide access to the property. There was a paved road on the front and a dirt road on the side of our property. We just didn't want to have to drive across our pasture.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ACinATX said:


> I talked to my realtor. It doesn't look like we're going to be able to get actual surveryers out there in time, so he wants to go with what's called a "recovery surveyer" which is just someone who finds the original surverying markers and tells you where the lines are based on that. However, I just heard from him that "The corners were relocated" in 2017, and now I have to figure out what that means.



In general, a surveyer is going to mark the legal boundaries of the land and that's that. However, the validity can somewhat depend on the markers and how old they are and how "sure" the surveyor is that they are correct.


After we purchased our land, we decided to redo the west side fence b/c it currently had a shared fenceline with the neighbor (and a poor fence at that). But we paid to have it survey'ed first to make 100% sure we knew where to put the fence. Well, turns out the existing old fence was pretty crooked. It wasn't too far off on the north side but by the time it got to the south side, it was about *100 FEET off*. And not in our favor! (We bought 130 acres so the west side if 1/2 mile long.) It sucks that we lost a little bit of land, but at least I know that the fence is in the right place.


In our case, the surveyor said he found really, really old markers (pins in the ground) so he is pretty dang sure it is marked in the right legal spot. 



If your property had the "corners relocated", if I am correct, that means new markers were put in. Probably pins or something in the ground possibly, or whatever is common in your area. But ask the surveyor to be sure.


Congrats on the property purchase!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

rmissildine said:


> AC,
> Check with a local real estate lawyer about "adverse possession " as carshon said.


Thanks! On your advice, I checked out the state law, and it looks like if someone wanted to claim adverse possession they would have had to have been actually doing something, anything, with the land (even cutting down trees would probably count). But looking at that land, I'm sure they have done NOTHING to it. So I think I'm clear! Very relieved!


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

This post is still messed up for me. It says the last post was 20 of 19.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

Testing


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