# Morals/Ethics vs. Free Horse



## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

So.... Long story short, I got offered a free purebred Arab mare because she "has no worth". Now, I KNOW she is worth something, because these people DON'T breed low-quality Arabs... (The lowest other than this mare and a yearling with genetic disorders is worth like $25k, and just recently one of their fillies (a full sister to this mare) got top 5 in some world/national championship in Vegas)

These people said (and I quote) "Until July 1st, you don't have to worry about money... Even then, you can work at the barn to pay off her board..." (I would be boarding her there until she is saddle broke & I learn English) "... and you can use our tack if we have any that fits her. She will be saddle broke by the barnhand who you don't need to pay, because he's working out of my paycheck..."

These people are nice, but I'd feel bad if I were to take her. Even then, I'm not 100% sure I would be able to work off all the pay, my parents won't buy a trailer, and if we were to move, I'd most likely have to leave her behind unless these people are willing to bring her to the new place.

Also, taking her means I would not have time for my leased AQH, Duncan. After just one month, I would have to cancel the lease... And that's not how I like to do business. The only thing I could use to put off this is the fact that this mare is only 2 and I could ask to give her another year to grow before having her broke.

(For reference, her name is Challeigh. Her dam is Challese and her sire is Trussardi. Challeses parents are Magnum Chall (sire?) and Anyazi (dam?). Trussardis are Precious as Gold (Dam) and Versace (sire))

What do you think? Should I take this special offer? Should I plunge in and get my first horse?


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> What do you think? Should I take this special offer? Should I plunge in and get my first horse?


No. 

It sounds way too sketchy.

Not to mention, I'm sure your parents would also say "no" and it sounds like you need to get their approval.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Nothing is free.

Nobody gives away good horses, especially not top bred horses. There is a reason why. The short of it, I think they are just trying to take your money AND keep the horse (having you pay board). She could also have some serious genetic or health disorder or an extremely dangerous vice that they aren't telling you about.

A situation like this offers far too many variables. Until you have something legal that says she is your horse (I would want a bill of sale AND her registered papers in my name), she's not yours. I would get a PPE from a vet not affiliated with them, and pay at least $1 for her, so there is something listed on the bill of sale. If they want to work out a board agreement where you work at the barn in exchange for board, that's great, *get it in writing.* Get everything you possibly can in writing.

Until all of the above is done, I would call the situation a free lease on the horse. You don't own her and they have the right to take her from you at any time, without giving you your board money back.

It sounds like you are a minor. I don't know what the legalities are of minors owning horses, being on the bill of sale, etc. Ideally, you need to be able to fully support her financially. If your parents aren't willing/able to buy you a horse, they probably are not able to take on the financially responsibility of owning one.

Often, the free horses are the ones that end up being the most expensive. Usually through vet bills, training fees, etc.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks. I was planning on *at least* a bill of sale, mostly because I knew her registered name and sire/dam/grandparents.

Also, yes. I am a minor. The thing is, I can care for her (except the vets, which my parents are willing to pay for) as long as the barn I keep her at allows me to work off the board. Plus, I'll be able to get a job as a lifeguard/babysitter/swim (lesson) coach if need be. The above three pay pretty well.

I could also scrape together like $100 to pay for her to put on a bill of sale.

ETA: They're genuinely good people; I was more worried about actually taking the horse than them scamming me. Plus, I wouldn't give them any money without a bill of sale.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

See if you can get advice from a lawyer as far as the legalities go of you owning and being on a bill of sale while being a minor.

Personally, I do not think it is a good idea to count on being able to work off the board. You need to have some cash flow (so get that job ASAP) and keep a cash stash for emergencies. You also need to not be relying on other people for tack, etc. You need to at least be saving up to get your own. Sounds like you won't need a saddle right away, which is the most expensive part. So save up for your own lunging equipment, grooming stuff, bridle, etc.

I would offer to pay at least what it costs to get her papers transferred to your name. I wouldn't be putting any money into this horse until that happens, with the exception of the PPE. *Get the PPE before you do anything else.* Especially if this mare is halter bred, I would be more concerned about genetic and health problems. There is a reason they said 'she is worthless'.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I wouldn't. You don't have the flexibility or finances being a minor. Plus the filly is only two, so she'd be sitting for at least another year. Even if this barn hand starts her for you, I'm going to doubt that you have the ability to continue her training. Nothing against you, but it is a rare teenager who has the skill to train a horse.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

No. This is one of those deals that sounds "too good to be true".

They likely know you could never be in a position to keep the horse.

They give you the horse.

You work your tail off to pay for her board,which is how much? $500-$600/month? You'd be an indentured servant.

They will let you use their tack IF they have a saddle to fit -- what if they don't? Does that mean she doesn't get broke?

If your folks had a farm, I wonder if the owners would have made this free offer -- my thought is they wouldn't have. I think they are looking for a way to get some free help and you still wouldn't end up with horse, contract or no contract.

To your credit, you did a great job remembering all the details. Stick with your Quarter Horse and hope the Arab gets fair treatment and a good home if they do sell her


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Run don't walk, away.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks for the advice. I sent them a lengthy text, explaining that we will *at least* wait until next year, when I have a money horde go make sure I can keep up with anything that happens; also, in that time, I politely asked to have a saddle measured for her so I can start saving. That way, even if I don't have to buy tack, I still have the money to. I also offered to work at the barn *if* the money would go straight to my bank account to pay for her and her board/farrier/etc. next spring/summer/in the future. 

There is still a possibility that I won't get her, but I want to be prepared. I will also ask if she's had a PPE. If not, I'll have a vet come in and do it.

ETA: I'm also slightly scared that she'll end up in the meat market if she's a "worthless" Arab in the Arab world.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

horseluvr2524 said:


> See if you can get advice from a lawyer as far as the legalities go of you owning and being on a bill of sale while being a minor.
> 
> Personally, I do not think it is a good idea to count on being able to work off the board. You need to have some cash flow (so get that job ASAP) and keep a cash stash for emergencies. You also need to not be relying on other people for tack, etc. You need to at least be saving up to get your own. Sounds like you won't need a saddle right away, which is the most expensive part. So save up for your own lunging equipment, grooming stuff, bridle, etc.
> 
> I would offer to pay at least what it costs to get her papers transferred to your name. I wouldn't be putting any money into this horse until that happens, with the exception of the PPE. *Get the PPE before you do anything else.* Especially if this mare is halter bred, I would be more concerned about genetic and health problems. There is a reason they said 'she is worthless'.


(Sorry for the double post)

I have my own grooming/lunging equipment that I use for Duncan, so I'm good there. Wouldn't mind getting backup brushes, though.

How much, on average, does it cost to get the papers transferred?

Considering they're putting down another colt with genetic disorders, I'm concerned about the PPE, too. The other colt can barely walk, though, and he's 1/4 her age. He has some hip/back thing. The only thing with that is they were 100% honest that he was no good to ride and could barely walk.... With her they said she is sound & friendly, but her features make her worthless. He didn't say anything else, but I'll be sure to ask questions. I wish I could take you guys with me!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If a breeder decides a horse is worthless, then they are usually trying to find someone to take that hrose, versus having it put .down.
The horse is only two, and even if 'free', the purchase price of a horse is the least amount of money you ever need to put into that horse, over time.A life time of vet bills, will make that free horse not such a bargain.
You can post pictures, and any genetic tests that might prove the hrose worthless, due to a severe conformation defect or a genetic disease. Even if she is not marketable on the Arabian show circuit, she should not be 'worthless', unless a problem exists


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I have no idea the cost of getting papers transferred. I have never owned a papered horse.

Have your own PPE done by an outside vet, as I already said. Unfortunately, you can't trust them just on their word, and you can't trust their vet either.

I like your plan of waiting. If they are serious about giving her to you because they think you will be a good home, or whatnot, and the whole thing is legit, then that horse will still be there a year from now.

Don't bother measuring her for a saddle. She will change a lot as she grows. I think it's silly to buy a saddle for a horse you don't own anyway, whether you may own that horse in the future or not.

You absolutely should not jump on this horse just because she might end up on the meat market. Unfortunately, that is the reality for many horses out there, some without such sketchy breeding or backgrounds. The breeders already sound unethical to me (because of the mentioned foals with such problems that they had to be put down), if they are among those who are breeding for looks without a care for soundness, good genetics, etc. There are tons of problems with halter horses because they are bred for looks and not a work purpose, so always beware of them. How many foals have these breeders produced that were unsound or had other problems and had to be put down? It's one thing to have those rare, unavoidable genetic defects, and quite another to continually breed horses who consistently produce such problems.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From your other post, which also further gives a better picture, as to where you are at, far as horse experience at the moment, and not sounding harsh,but stick with the ,mini, and follow that goal for now.
Also, an ethical horse breeder/owner would not be trying to pawn off a two year old on you, knowing your experience with horses. That alone makes me very suspicious!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The question to ask is "*why has she no worth?" *

What is so terribly wrong with her that she is valueless? 

Even very nice people do not give away horses.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I hope I can say this so it doesn't come across in a mean way.
The owners of the filly are not good and caring people, even if they act nice to you. If they were, they'd consider that a two year old Arabian is not a good match for a young person without the experience to handle a two year old Arabian filly. Many experienced adults who have previously owned horses are over-faced by two year old Arabian fillies.

I wouldn't say someone was kind if they were giving away a two year old TB to a young person either. That is not saving the horse from being put down, it is potentially putting the horse into a dangerous situation that might also harm the young person. So they are not being caring about the horse's future, or about your future safety, health and well being. 

I've personally been involved in a situation where a two year old Mustang was given to two young teens, and it required three adults to help care for and train the horse, which proved to be difficult. After a couple of years we helped them find the horse a good home with an experienced owner.

Have you seen this horse yourself? I believe Magnum Psyche/Magnum Chall lines have been under some scrutiny for breeding toward extremely dished faces. This has caused some horses to be born with severe parrot mouths or breathing problems. 








Possibly the filly has some issue like this, which would make her have expensive dental and feeding problems throughout life at a minimum. That would be one reason why an unethical person might try to give an unsuitable horse to a young person who might not know what they were getting into. Perhaps they would hope you might fall in love with the horse and take care of her despite her costs and problems.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

IF the filly is registered, and a lot of Arabian breeders wait to see if the horse is good for what they bred for first, then to transfer ownership is not hugely expensive. 



Member Non-Member
Date of sale* to 2 months $15.00 $55.00
2 – 6 months from date of sale $30.00 $70.00
After 6 months $50.00 $90.00

*If a contract sale is involved, contract sale dates must be indicated. The beginning date of the contract may be used as the recorded transfer (sale) date, but the ending date of the contract will be used to determine the applicable transfer fee. (As seller, I have always just transferred the ownership once the horse was paid for, not started the process when the contract was entered into.)

If they waited, and have decided she's "worthless" may not want to show up as the breeders of the horse, then doing registration is quite a bit more expensive. After 24 mos, Members pay $200 and Non-Members pay $240. And without the breeder's cooperation, she could be unregisterable.

Membership for a youth is $20 and membership in your closest club is not very expensive either. In order to show the horse at breed shows, you have to be affiliated with a club. 

Why is the horse "worthless"? And for Smilie, in the current market MANY Arabians are 'worthless' because they won't even come close to what they cost to make when you sell them. An untrained, 2 y.o. filly of halter lines who is worthless as a halter horse, will fetch less than $200 at the local sale most days. If she is considered 'worthless' because she's a SCID carrier, Lavender Foal Carrier (not Egyptian so not real likely), CA Carrier (much more likely), then she is indeed worthless. A lot of breeders do what I call "Spaghetti on the wall" breeding". They breed one stallion to every mare that will stand still and cull the ones who don't measure up, which is most of them. Akin to throwing spaghetti on the wall to see which strands stick. The rest fall off and are swept up and thrown away. I am NOT saying this breeder does that kind of breeding. We have one down here who takes 40-50 to the local sale every year, gives away another 40-50 and still has 300 horses on the property. 

Those lines are strictly for main ring halter, not considered athletic for the most part, and until this filly is fully trained under saddle she won't fetch much at sale and that's why they're just trying to cut their losses and get rid of this filly. The way they are going to 'win' is to 'lose'. They'll lose the feed bill, the vet bill, the farrier bill, the training bill and someone else will start carrying that instead. She may be a very pretty filly (just not main ring halter material), she may be very sweet and she could possibly make a nice riding horse later on, or not. She may have wonky legs, a club foot (not unusual in Arabs), neck not set on properly, big ears, a straight face, and be so hot she hasn't got a brain in her head (with that breeding) and carry all 3 of the genetic diseases and any one of those may be why she's "worthless". I guarantee she's not main ring pretty or they wouldn't be getting rid of her. Oh, and she might have a "human eye" and that be her only 'sin'. She could be gorgeous but have no tail carriage, no flair and not have the "halter personality" and that be her only 'sin'. 

There's too much unknown here to say one way or the other on the horse. Her lines are FULL of well known CA Carriers, and there are some SCID carriers as well. NOT saying either parent is a carrier but without the lab results, you don't know. If she is a carrier for CA, I would not touch her. If she was affected for SCID, she'd already be dead so that's not an issue and carrier for SCID is only an issue at breeding time. So, at this point, my reasons for running away rather than taking or even considering the offer are several. 

1. Too many unknowns
2. You're a youth without the experience to handle a potentially very hot 2 y.o. filly. 
3a. Your financial status is not sufficient to handle any and all emergencies that could come your way.
3b. Your financial status is such that you can't afford board and training, which this filly will sorely need
4. You have just leased another horse (for riding, I'm guessing?) and will have to back out if you take this unrideable, untrained horse. The horse world is much too small to get known for that kind of flakiness.
5. You don't have your parents full support (won't buy a trailer, guessing they wouldn't pay a hauler either?), which could mean that you will have put in considerable time and money on a horse you will ultimately have to leave behind, give away or sell, depending on her status at the time


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Lots of experienced people have spoken! Listen to them. There is no such thing as a free horse. It's pretty likely this one has something truly wrong with her, or else they would sell her as a light riding horse. I agree with the other posters that for them to try to pawn her off a young person like yourself is not a sign that they are responsible breeders. They know this filly will cost them money, so they want to dump that on someone else. Good business for them, not so much for you.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I would not go with this- seems a bit sketchy, and it seems too good to be true...not good, walk away for sure.
You don't want to get stuck with anything, doesn't seem right they'd give her away for 'free.' I'd pass on it. Sounds like trouble to me.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

I'll heed what you guys said, for the most part. First thing is the lab tests. If anything is "wrong" or she has any genetic diseases, I'll walk. Second is conformation; I'll have them help me get her "set up" so you can see, or I can go take pictures individually of each part of her body. If her conformation is the only thing wrong, I'll get to know her over the course of a year. If I like her, she'll stay. If not, she goes. My parents will pay a hauler but don't want to have to haul a trailer. Mostly because we don't have the truck for it, but also because we don't have the storage space (we already have a boat in storage that goes unused for 9 months...)

If she turns out to be "hot" like I've found most Arabs are, I'll also walk.

I've offered to work there to earn money to go to a bank account to help pay for some expenses, but they went silent over my lengthy text. I'm not sure if they just didn't see it (I sent it at like 11:00 PM) or if they ignored it. I'll give them a few days and talk to their daughter in school. They also took the older website that I found down, but it says on a new one.. "Coming Soon". Google search "Rohl Arabians". The have FB but I can't go on it on the school computer.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

TRH, a 2 y/o Arabian filly is not the horse for you, and if these people were ethical breeders they'd never in a million years be trying to pawn her off on a minor.

If you legally can't enter into a contract because of your age then your parents would have to agree to do it, and these people should know that. They should have approached THEM about this horse, not you.

There are HUGE red flags all over this, and them taking down their website as well as their FB page not being updated past November 2015 tells me something is very, very sketchy.

Run, do not walk, away from this 'deal'. There is something very wrong here.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> These people said (and I quote) "Until July 1st, you don't have to worry about money... Even then, you can work at the barn to pay off her board..." (I would be boarding her there until she is saddle broke & I learn English) "... and you can use our tack if we have any that fits her. She will be saddle broke by the barnhand who you don't need to pay, because he's working out of my paycheck..."
> 
> ....
> 
> ...


And until they change their mind and tell you that your board is no longer free, you can't work it off, you can't use their tack,and you will have to do your own training. People change their minds. Then what will you do?

Again, I would NOT do it. There is a_ reason_ they are trying to give her away.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> I'll heed what you guys said, for the most part. First thing is the lab tests. If anything is "wrong" or she has any genetic diseases, I'll walk. Second is conformation; I'll have them help me get her "set up" so you can see, or I can go take pictures individually of each part of her body. If her conformation is the only thing wrong, I'll get to know her over the course of a year. If I like her, she'll stay. If not, she goes. My parents will pay a hauler but don't want to have to haul a trailer. Mostly because we don't have the truck for it, but also because we don't have the storage space (we already have a boat in storage that goes unused for 9 months...)
> 
> If she turns out to be "hot" like I've found most Arabs are, I'll also walk.
> 
> I've offered to work there to earn money to go to a bank account to help pay for some expenses, but they went silent over my lengthy text. I'm not sure if they just didn't see it (I sent it at like 11:00 PM) or if they ignored it. I'll give them a few days and talk to their daughter in school. They also took the older website that I found down, but it says on a new one.. "Coming Soon". Google search "Rohl Arabians". The have FB but I can't go on it on the school computer.


Fair enough - but do get a vet to have a thorough look at her, like you should do with any horse you're thinking of buying. I assume by "lab tests" you mean you will have a vet draw blood and test her for the numerous defects other posters have mentioned above. This won't be cheap, but less costly than ending up with a horse you can't ride or sell, that is costing you a fortune to keep, and that breaks your heart and your budget. Best to know up front what you are dealing with. Make sure you make that very clear to the vet. 

I might mention I own an 18 year old Arabian. He's perfectly trained now, and does well in a familiar environment, but is still hot in some situations. I would NOT have wanted to deal with him when he was 2! I love this breed, but they are not for everyone, and training them requires expert skill. I don't want to sound rude, but given your youth, I doubt you have the required skill. You say the breeder is going to train her for you - that doesn't sound right either. Training a horse requires hours and hours of a trainer's time. Why would they do that for a horse they think is "worthless"? If they think she's trainable, then why wouldn't they train her and sell her as a pleasure horse since they're going to train her for you anyway? None of this adds up.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks.

I suppose I'm still just in denial at all of this. I was offered a free horse and I want to make it work. I've wanted a horse my whole life and I'm willing to learn, work, and train with a horse and experienced trainer. Currently contacting various vets to see who can come out and do PPE and checkup. Should I have her vaccinated it the owners allow?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

After looking these folks up, they are big money and I see they are dealing with Arabian Expressions and Greg Knowles and Rudolfo Guzzo. That tells me all I need to know. The horse doesn't meet their requirements for halter, will not be suitable for their 11 year old daughter and they want her gone. Money isn't the issue, she is truly worthless to them. Don't do it.


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## OldEnduranceRider (Feb 17, 2017)

"Nobody gives away good horses, especially not top bred horses. There is a reason why. The short of it, I think they are just trying to take your money AND keep the horse (having you pay board). She could also have some serious genetic or health disorder or an extremely dangerous vice that they aren't telling you about.

A situation like this offers far too many variables. Until you have something legal that says she is your horse (I would want a bill of sale AND her registered papers in my name), she's not yours. I would get a PPE from a vet not affiliated with them, and pay at least $1 for her, so there is something listed on the bill of sale. If they want to work out a board agreement where you work at the barn in exchange for board, that's great, *get it in writing.* Get everything you possibly can in writing."


Horselover2524 is right! 


I can see you putting a lot of work into this, worthless to them horse. Have her excel, in what ever endeavor you use her for, then they will turn around and want her back. A 2 year old is a lot of work, I only found her sires pedigree on, Allbreedpedigree.com, I don't recognize too many names, my guess is she is Egyptian. Can't do any real riding till she's about 5. Good luck, and don't jump the gun, stick with the leased horse.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

She shouldn't be worthless. She is bred well as a halter horse but I expect will turn into a cute hunter or western horse if given time to mentally and physically mature. I would not expect her to be a good first horse as the Magnums/Gazals can be a sensitive touch. 

I would make sure she is genetically tested for SCID/CA. 

I bet she doesn't have as exotic a head as they were expecting, or may not have perfect legs which pops up her lines. 

She is polish/Russian/Spanish with a touch of American crabbet through Autumn in Gold (sires damline) and her damline. I have worked with many very similarly bred and as long as they are working for the side of good and not pushed too hard or too fast they are lovely. I actually really think the crabbet rounds her pedigree out nicely, but I bet the older fashion damlines can breed strong (Real McCoy/Aladdin/Bey Shah/crabbet) may have plain-ed out her face slightly- which is not what their goals where.

Don't ever plan that you can work off board. Things can go sideways in an instant and then you can't afford your horse. If you can't afford to board, and pay for emergencies... wait. It is hard... but continuing leasing may be for the best!!!


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Okay. I think I'll go with the yearlong wait. If she were truly going to be a good horse, she'd still be there in a year. I have the time to dedicate to her over this summer (if they'll allow) to get her used to me and work on ground manners and grooming/standing still and picking up feet. Just general basic stuff. I will for sure get a PPE done, though.

ETA: Talking to a vet as I type. PPE is in my pricing and will be scheduled as soon as I et the a-ok from the breeders.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

OldEnduranceRider said:


> "Nobody gives away good horses, especially not top bred horses. There is a reason why. The short of it, I think they are just trying to take your money AND keep the horse (having you pay board). She could also have some serious genetic or health disorder or an extremely dangerous vice that they aren't telling you about.
> 
> A situation like this offers far too many variables. Until you have something legal that says she is your horse (I would want a bill of sale AND her registered papers in my name), she's not yours. I would get a PPE from a vet not affiliated with them, and pay at least $1 for her, so there is something listed on the bill of sale. If they want to work out a board agreement where you work at the barn in exchange for board, that's great, *get it in writing.* Get everything you possibly can in writing."
> 
> ...


Sticking with the leased horse for now!

Can they demand a horse back even with Bill of Sale and my name on the registration papers?


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Bump.

They agreed to keep her for a year and let me hoarde some money in a bank account (with my/my parents name, of course). Turns out that the vet I contacted doesn't include genetic tests in their PPE, so the search continues.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I don't think most vets do include genetic testing in their PPE. You have to do that separate by ordering a kit from a lab and sending in pulled hair. I don't know if any of them need a blood sample these days.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks. The pulled hair I can do, but there is no way I'm getting close enough to that horse to stick her with a needle. Not that she is wary/skittish, it is just that honestly, I only think the vet comes out when they need shots. So, she is very skittish around needles. Also, I don't think she trusts me enough to let me stick her with a needle. Maybe I could ask them to do it, as long as I were there.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

If the horse has already been registered, she has already had her DNA (parentage) done. If you test for SCID, CA & LFS, if they have not been done (bet not) then you'll need to pull some tail hair. No blood needed.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Thanks! I'll try to sneak some hair from her when I go over there next. Does it have to be long? Can it be from the mane?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> Thanks! I'll try to sneak some hair from her when I go over there next. Does it have to be long? Can it be from the mane?


Tail or mane doesn't really matter. I have found it easier to get tail hair from one who doesn't want to participate. I scritch with one hand and get a small bunch of tail hair, close to the roots, wrapped around my fingers. If the horse doesn't want me there, and walks off, I just hang on until the hair comes out. They pull it out themselves and have never had one get upset. You need roughly 50 hairs with the root bulb intact, the length of the hair doesn't matter, as long as you've got the root bulbs attached.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

You sound very mature and responsible OP. I honestly hope this all works out in your favor. Will be interested to hear what the test results are.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Thank you, everyone. I've determined that it is only $125 to get the tests for CA, LFS, and SCID done as a package. I think it will be harder to get her to hold still than to get the money!  My brother was genetically tested and it was thousands of dollars so I was pretty worried that I wouldn't be able to afford it.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Tail or mane doesn't really matter. I have found it easier to get tail hair from one who doesn't want to participate. I scritch with one hand and get a small bunch of tail hair, close to the roots, wrapped around my fingers. If the horse doesn't want me there, and walks off, I just hang on until the hair comes out. They pull it out themselves and have never had one get upset. You need roughly 50 hairs with the root bulb intact, the length of the hair doesn't matter, as long as you've got the root bulbs attached.


LOL.... But I'm still not quite sure what her temperament is, so it is possible that she will get upset... More-so about me getting near her rump than actually pulling the hair.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> LOL.... But I'm still not quite sure what her temperament is, so it is possible that she will get upset... More-so about me getting near her rump than actually pulling the hair.


That actually can work in your favor. If you can keep her still long enough to get a handful of tail hair, and then let her walk away while you just hold the hair. It comes out on its own and the horse doesn't seem to care (think hair caught in a gate and they just walk away). I've never had one get upset over the pulling. Some really don't want you back there, so I stand beside the hip, scritch their hip/bum with my left hand and grab hair with my right, quit scritching and step aside a little bit. They walk off and done deal.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Mane hair works as well. I've done testing off of mane hair, just need the bulbs.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Okay. Bulbs are just, like, the roots, right?

I printed the form out. As soon as I get the hair, the genetics will be tested. Fingers crossed! I won't be able to go this coming week/end, probably the next. I have a show coming up! Excited!


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> Sticking with the leased horse for now!
> 
> Can they demand a horse back even with Bill of Sale and my name on the registration papers?


If your name is on the bill of sale and her papers, they can't take the horse from you because you own the horse ..... BUT if you have been keeping her at their place board-free and they change their mind and want now want you to pay for all the months they boarder her for you .... in some states, they can sell your horse for the amount of board money you owe them.

Whatever you end up doing (again, I would pass on this shady situation) make sure you have EVERYTHING written down in a contract. EVERYTHING.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

I really think we need a "Thanks" button. I will only be keeping her there for a while. In fact, I'm not sure if I want them to train her, because they have only ever trained horses for halter and I don't want her to be petrified of being ridden. There is a youtuber that I've been following that can get a horse saddlebroke in 6 days. I would, of course, take way more time (being I've never trained a horse before) but would follow her to a dot. I would also probably move her to the English barn that is 15mins away from me after I get her saddlebroke for training.

I've always been a western gal, but I would love to try English. What do you think? It would be a green/green situation, though I know how to ride western. If I kept her western I'd almost want to get into barrels.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> In fact, I'm not sure if I want them to train her, because they have only ever trained horses for halter and I don't want her to be petrified of being ridden.


Why would she be scared to be ridden?

If they don't train her to ride and instead focus on halter, she wouldn't necessarily be "petrified" to be ridden -- she just wouldn't be trained for it.



ThatRoanHorse said:


> There is a youtuber that I've been following that can get a horse saddlebroke in 6 days. I would, of course, take way more time (being I've never trained a horse before) but would follow her to a dot.


If you've never trained a horse before, YouTube is not the place to learn. I strongly advise you to work with a trainer in-person. Training is about TIMING. You cannot learn timing from the internet. If your timing is wrong, it creates problems.

And it's complete hogwash to say a horse is "saddlebroke" in 6 days. Six days is nothing. I'd spend at least that many days just on groundwork (more, if the horse needed it). 






ThatRoanHorse said:


> I would also probably move her to the English barn that is 15mins away from me after I get her saddlebroke for training.. I've always been a western gal, but I would love to try English. What do you think? It would be a *green/green situation*, though I know how to ride western. If I kept her western I'd almost want to get into barrels.


English vs. Western really has nothing to do with it. _Basic_ riding fundamentals are the same for both. There only becomes a difference when you get into specific events and specific things the horse is expected to do. 

And you must have heard that _green + green = black & blue_ ?

Training is horse to ride is the same whether it's English or Western. You have to start somewhere with the fundamentals.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

I meant that I don't like their saddle-breaking methods. It involves whips and ropes; I don't think that will make her "want" to learn; it would just scare her. She's not trained for halter either. 

I would bring her to the English barn close to me and have the trainer work with me on training (we talked about it...) but I wouldn't pay her because I can't work it off. She agreed that she would "work with me" (AKA basically "train" the horse while I was technically doing it).


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> I would bring her to the English barn close to me and have the trainer work with me on training (we talked about it...) *but I wouldn't pay her because I can't work it off.* She agreed that she would "work with me" (AKA basically "train" the horse while I was technically doing it).


I don't know where you live OP, but I don't know of any trainers in my area that will train horses for free. You'd better get a contract in writing that states you will not be charged for her services.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Indeed. You live in the same state as me, it seems. 

The BO/trainer agreed to write up a contract. I'd rather do it there and have to pay than have her whipped. I can always earn money at the barn that I ease at this summer, stash it, and then use it for training. IDK.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> Indeed. You live in the same state as me, it seems.
> 
> The BO/trainer agreed to write up a contract. I'd rather do it there and have to pay than have her whipped. I can always earn money at the barn that I ease at this summer, stash it, and then use it for training. IDK.


Ha, I didn't even notice through the whole thread. 

I'm PM'ing you right now to see what trainer told you this and where you are located (although I have a pretty good guess!)


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## Decalcomania (May 1, 2017)

No, if you don't have the money to provide for the money or you would easily get into money issues then by no means should you buy the horse. You can ask why they don't think she isn't anything worth (which might be that she doesn't comply with some of the breeds standards. Though i think that is a load of crap either way because it is stupid to judge any animal by it's looks) but most likely their might be something genetically or physical wrong with her. And if she is then you'll soon be paying the vet bills. Maybe you can look into some breed related issues that might occur. Besides that I would recommend having a vet (that you choose and pay yourself) checking out a horse you want to own before going through with it.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

I will, Decal. The PPE is scheduled for next spring, and I just need to get the tail hair for the genetic tests. I'm not sure if she has the coffins or anything yet so I will be sure to get the papers for those, too.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

​


JCnGrace said:


> I don't think most vets do include genetic testing in their PPE. You have to do that separate by ordering a kit from a lab and sending in pulled hair. I don't know if any of them need a blood sample these days.


Right, DNA and genetic testing are much more accurate, then former blood tests and thus you only need cells, which are very convenient in root hair bulbs
A vet does not dot hem. You have to order a kit, from a lab, and one the breed organization recognizes as their official lab. All the vet does, is get the sample for you, if needed.
Check rules of association, as when it was required to DNA solid colored Appaloosas, so they could be shown and get CPO papers, an inspector had to verify the horse the hairs were pulled from, by being present, and checking that the horse matched the papers.
Don't know Arabian rules


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ​
> 
> Check rules of association, as when it was required to DNA solid colored Appaloosas, so they could be shown and get CPO papers, an inspector had to verify the horse the hairs were pulled from, by being present, and checking that the horse matched the papers.
> Don't know Arabian rules


With the Arabs, you just fill out the paperwork, send in the check and they send you the testing form. You go out and pull the hair, attach it to the form and send it where ever the envelope tells you to. Used to be back to the registry, but I don't know if they still do that.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

Sorry to bump this thread after so long.

I know I said that I think I'll pass, but I didn't tell them that yet... Here's a small update.

I went out and visited the farm (I'm really good friends with their daughter). They still have that mare, and let me say... She's beautiful without her winter coat. She's not perfect, and I don't know Arab critiquing. I did like her height(?) although I think she's getting close to done growing. I eyeballed her somewhere in the mid-15 hands range, although the ground was uneven.

If I were to go get a video of her, either out in pasture or in the arena, would you guys give me opinions on her? I could probably get the hair easily, but I wouldn't be able to get it tested without my parents permission. Does the hair for tests need to be recently-pulled? I believe she's a Flaxen Chestnut; she has a solid Chestnut body with a light caramel (close to an off-white) mane. Her tail is almost the same color with more Chestnut. 

I got to know her a little bit better the today. She's totally fine with me walking around her front, but I didn't want to walk behind her so I didn't. I ran my hands down her legs and got about to her knees before she shied away; I believe it is from lack of handling and not from pain but I didn't see her running around. She didn't flinch and I could touch her almost everywhere (except legs and the very edge of her rump, near the base of her tail). She did try to 'bite' but it was more of a 'grooming'. It wasn't an aggressive move, just curious. Not sure if I responded correctly but I swatted her muzzle away and made her back up. I did like her personality more than the yearling next to her; the yearling next to her kept trying to turn her rear towards me and was very spooky. This mare was 'flinchy' but didn't shy away (except for when I touched her legs). I just had to be careful not to move too quickly.

Another thing I liked about her was that she was one of the few that didn't spook when the dog ran down the aisle and tried to jump and touch her nose. Pros and cons, pros and cons.

On another note, they brought in a QH mare to take a purebred Arab embryo to term. Thought that was pretty cool and the mare was nice. So was the Arab across the stall from her, along with the one next to her. The barn is well-kept, has a shower rack, three tack rooms, indoor & outdoor arena, etc. I also believe that it is heated, which is an upgrade from the current barn I'm at. I mean, I think this barn is heated but the BO hasn't turned it on yet lol. The horses are only groomed once a week, which bugged me, but I could go over there daily to brush her. They get fed twice a day and have auto-refill water tanks.

They also just got a niece to my cat, which was cool. She's a fluffy loaf of bread.

Anyway, opinions? Would you rather I go and get pictures and videos? Now, I don't trust the mare enough (yet) to let her run loose in the arena with me, but they have gates that I could take video from. I could also wait until they turn her out in the evening.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

THere are always strings with a free horse. I would get everything in writing. Does she have to stay on their property? It may be easier to move her somewhere else where they do not see her coming along well and change their mind


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I think what would help us most is to see the conditions of transferring ownership to you. (Well, if you are a minor, you wouldn't own the horse - your parents would, just so you are clear on that.)

She sounds like a cutie. Just one thing: When you desensitize her, don't stop when she flinches, because that teaches her that flinching is the right thing to do to release pressure. You want to stop when she relaxes. To do that, you have to find the threshold where she's a bit concerned, but not yet reactive, and then just stay there. When you see signs of relaxation, retreat and praise her.

As for the nipping...if it's just curiosity, I don't correct or punish. (You see it's not aggressive when it's done really slowly.) I simply grab the muzzle with both hands, shake it a little, get really close and say, "No biting!" (the tone of voice being more important than what I say, of course). The whole thing lasts no longer than 3 seconds.

On the other hand, if I see a lunging head with bared teeth, I don't mind making contact with my elbow... 

Anyway, just some random thoughts - FWIW.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

OK, let's be honest here. With the issues you've posted about in the past with an easy-going quarter horse, I don't think an unbroken, unhandled show-bred Arab mare is going to work for you. Even if the situation were not sketchy, and you were not a minor, I'd suggest an older, broke-to-death confidence builder of a horse instead. Taking this mare has heartbreak and disaster written all over it.

If they haven't done anything with her, there's a reason. Walk away. If you want an Arab, get an Arab, but a 'been there done that' horse, not something unstarted and spooky.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't want to burst your bubble here but you are getting in way over your head in this.
The owners (breeders?) have found themselves with a horse that doesn't meet their requirements, they aren't cruel heartless people so they'd rather give her away than have her end up on a truck headed for a slaughter yard or have her euthanized at home.
They don't want the expense of keeping a horse that's no value to them and won't be any value to anyone for riding for a few years yet - and an Arabian that's not going to win in the show ring isn't worth any more than any other horse no matter how well bred it is - if anything its going to be worth less because they aren't suitable for a lot of riders
You might be getting her for free but once she's yours she becomes your problem to deal with if she does turn out to be too sensitive and hot for you to ride - you don't even seem confident in being around her on the ground.


If you want a free or cheap horse then look around for one that's broke and well handled - they're out there and will give you a lot more pleasure. It could be 2 years before this filly can be ridden, a lot of the halter bred horses are very spindly and narrow.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree with SilverM>
Even your description of how you read this young horse,with no slight intended, shows you are no where near ready to work with a young Arabian horse.
The only way it might work, if you had her with a trainer and too lessons,but then that free horse becomes very expensive.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Gosh, these people really got this poor girl going!

Seriously, why do you want this horse so much? Is it because she is free? Do you think she is going to be an amazing riding horse because of her breeding? That is completely untrue. These horses seem to be bread for looks, not performance. 

And, coming from another novice, even well trained, older Arabs are most often too much for us. Never mind a young, unbroken filly. 

Have ever owned a puppy? Do your know how they behave? Well, that would be your horse for the next five years IF YOU PAY A LOT OF MONEY FOR TRAINING. If you don’t and decide to try and wing it yourself, your horse will remain a crazy, spoiled half a ton of muscle, hoofs and teeth for the rest of its life. If it doesn’t kill you or maim you. 

I know teenagers can be strong headed but this doesn’t make any sense at all.


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## ThatRoanHorse (Mar 2, 2017)

@SilverMaple I know; I just want to make sure that there is no possible way for this to work out before I decline. 

Also, he's not an easy-going QH, at least compared to the other well broke horses. He's trained to ride but skittish and spooky. A bit head-shy, and I think (not sure) that he probably has some health problems (eg. getting kicked in the head by another horse, which made him out-of-commission for two months) I'm either overconfident or you guys are doubting my experience with horses (no offence). I am not confident around horses that I don't know; eg. this filly. With Duncan, even though I know he spooks, I trust him to let me walk behind him, touch him everywhere, accidentally slam his stall door, throw the hay into his stall and have it land on his back, etc. With this filly, I don't know her personality (only met her twice so far). So far she seems nice. I didn't want to walk behind her *because I don't know if she kicks or not*.

@jaydee it's okay. No bubble here; I understand that this probably won't work out but would still like to try if possible. I'm going to try to visit more often this winter since Duncan's lease is up. That way I can get to know her and the people (breeders, correct) better Although I've known their daughter for a couple of years now, I only visit every once in a while and would like to get to know the owners before doing anything. The thing that you mentioned that has been bugging me is the fact that they claim that it'll be 'free' if I work at the barn. This, on the odd chance that I do accept, I will get on paper... Something like this... Please don't think that I've been planning this for a while, either. I just typed this up. Things included in brackets will be either typed or written in print.

"[Owner's Name], who henceforth will be referred to as 'seller' agrees to give [Horses Show Name], also known as [Barn Name], to [My Name] in exchange for work. Description and health records, (and) pedigree (or add anything else needed to prove she's mine) of [Horse] must be transferred to [My Name]. [My Name], who henceforth will be referred to as 'buyer' or 'owner', will work at [Barn Name] as long as this horse resides at their place. Work includes [Insert Chores Here] [Insert # of Days a Week, # of Times a Day]. Buyer will not have to pay for any costs of [Horse] unless agreed upon by both parties. Buyer has the total rights to this horse, included but not limited to, switching barns, changing vets and/or farriers, (etc...). If Buyer chooses to move barns, Buyer is removed from the responsibility of work but will become responsible for any and all costs of the horse. [Horse] will be housed, fed, watered, groomed, trained, (etc...) by Seller or Seller's barn hands as required to keep the horse healthy. Schedule includes [List off turnout times, feed & water schedule, # of times groomed per week, training schedule]... (towards the end) This contract is a legal binding paper that may only be changed with a new signature from both parties. Attach a new, printed, contract with changes and signatures to this contract.

_________________ (signature) ____ (date)
_________________ (signature) ____ (date)"

@Horsef I want his horse so I can prove not only to myself but also to my parents that I am responsible. I want to better or increase my experience with horses and get hands-on experience working at a barn. She's a nice horse, just not good enough for their multi-million dollar program. They have a nice facility, too.

I might seem worked up (and admittedly am excited about the idea) but am not so excited that I can't think straight and am just going to 'jump into this'. If I was so worked up, I wouldn't have asked on the forum, thought about terms for a contract, and probably would've ended up in the mess you guys are describing. I understand that Arabs are a lot of work, moreso than my hyper, spooky QH. I also realize that she won't be anywhere near 'well-trained' for at least a couple of years.

And no, I haven't owned a puppy, but I've trained, cared for, and been around other's dogs for my entire life. Currently I'm training a young Toy Aussie. He's a lot of work, but not nearly as much as a horse and not as liable to injure me. It's not even daily work with him; it's hourly work. All day, every day. Cleaning messes, trying to keep his attention, etc. He's crazy energetic; I could run him ragged and within 15 minutes he'd be rearing to go again. As I said above, they 'would pay for everything' as per the agreement; including training and care. At least that's what I understood when I talked to them.

I am slightly offended by 'strong headed' as I can be stubborn but in this scenario I am not trying to be. It may seem that way when I type, but I'm trying to come at this from the best angle BY ASKING THE FORUM MEMBERS, and all I'm getting is a lashing saying "You're too young!" or "You're not responsible enough!" or "You can't handle this!". I get that you think it's a bad idea. Trust me, I do. I'm asking you guys, if I give you a video of this horse, can you get any more info from it? Will you watch the video without yelling at me for being irresponsible or getting upset because I took a wrong step or responded wrong? I'm here to learn and that's what I'm trying to do, but I keep getting critical feedback that I can't learn from.

How do I assess this horse? What warning signs should I be looking for when working with this horse and the people who own it? What is the correct conformation for an Arab? Is there anything, when looking at the horse itself, CONFORMATION or PERSONALITY WISE (meaning NOT from what the people say or what you know about the barn), that should make me walk away? I get that you think these people are throwing red flags. I understand; get it on paper if I do accept! Be very cautious and keep a level head! Don't get attached to his horse! I'm not focusing on the people right now. I want to assess the horse first. If she checks out (not including the PPE, which I will do if I decide to accept) then I'll work with the people and dig to make sure there's no loopholes or ways for them to back out and say 'she's your responsibility!'

Sorry that I ranted but it's getting a little frustrating. I'm trying to get constructive feedback but all I'm getting is critical feedback.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The old saying "Never look a gift horse in the mouth" doesn't always ring true. 

A young filly needs experienced handling which, at the moment, you do not have enough of. Arabs can react faster than any other breed of horse and many remain spooky all their lives. They are great as a breed but do need a lot of understanding.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> @*SilverMaple* I know; I just want to make sure that there is no possible way for this to work out before I decline.
> 
> I'm trying to get constructive feedback but all I'm getting is critical feedback.


Just because you don't like the answers doesn't mean the feedback is not constructive.

Look at the statement you made answering SilverMaple above. You are grasping at straws hoping you can find something, anything that will make this situation work out. Would it not be better to look for a horse where the odds are favorable that it will work out?

You ask what to look for when judging the horse, yet several people very experienced with Arabs specifically have told you that they wouldn't touch the horse just from knowing what they do already (and explained to you why not). I know for me, I wouldn't touch a horse with that pedigree and there are nothing but Arabs in my pasture. Pictures and videos won't change that.

If you want experience, work in the barn. Take your pay home and put it in the bank for the right horse. It's great you want to learn, but people here are trying to keep you from learning the hard way..


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

> If she checks out (not including the PPE, which I will do if I decide to accept) then I'll work with the people and dig to make sure there's no loopholes or ways for them to back out and say 'she's your responsibility!'


Ok, this will be constructive feedback because you will need this information to help you make a decision: legally, the buck stops with you if you are the owner. You can sign a contract for training and what ever else you need but contracts have termination clauses and waivers. If these people are as wealthy as they sound, they will not enter into a potentially damaging contract. They will have a lawyer look over the paperwork. Just be aware of that. Also be aware of the fact that if you do not engage a lawyer you will most probably not be able to draft a water-tight contract. Best of luck!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I have had horses for 30+ years. I have started colts, trained and shown a variety of disciplines and worked with numerous breeds. I am a legal adult and I like 'hot' horses. Even I wouldn't take her. 

You are not the person for this mare, and she is not the horse for you. Period. This will not work. You can go ahead and do it and you probably will, but there is less than a 1% chance this will work out in your favor. I'm sorry. I wish I could tell you this was the chance of a lifetime. It's not. The issues you were having with your leased quarter horse are basic and simple and novice issues. If those are problems, this mare will have your number in 5 minutes and you are likely to get hurt. Arabs are smart and quick and reactive. They are very, very different than stock horses. There are some wonderful Arabians out there, but the breeding on this mare would make me run far and fast if I were looking for a good saddle horse for a novice owner/rider.

I'm not trying to be mean. I know how you feel. You see a free horse and the owners are telling you what you want to hear. The voice of reason and common sense is not always a joyous one. I'm sorry.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Mind you, if teenagers listened to more experienced people we most probably wouldn’t be riding horses at all. I can bet it was a teenager who clambered on top of a horse first. It sure wasn’t some middle-aged woman like me. I suppose I should just keep quiet.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Let's look at this another way--- say you do this. You get everything in writing, your parents are on-board, and you agree to work for them in exchange for the horse.... sounds good, right?

What happens if, six months from now, you realize this is not the job for you? You don't agree with some of the training/handling, and want nothing to do with these people? What happens if you get hurt and can't work? What happens if your parents decide you're spending too much time at the barn and you need to cut back? What happens when the barn owners demand more and more work so you can keep 'your' horse? Do they get the horse back if things fall apart? They said the horse is 'worthless' but you're basically signing yourself on as an indentured servant to get a worthless horse. If she's really worthless, they'd give her to you, no strings attached. They're playing you to unload a horse they don't want, and to get free help. This is a huge red flag to me. 

If she's worth $1000, then she should legally be yours after you've worked long enough to earn $1000. After that, you pay THEM for her board and care and training. That's the way these things should work. Everything you've said is a huge red flag. They are using you. If they need barn help, they should pay you to work for them and you can use your wages as you see fit-- either to buy the mare after you've worked there awhile and get to know her, or to purchase a horse you have a much better chance of enjoying. 

Say you end up with the mare. They actually had her trained properly, but now you're headed to college and even though you wanted to take her, it's not going to work out. Now what? She's not a horse that will be easy to sell. You'll take a loss on her or have to give her away. What if they string you along and never do get her broke? What if she gets hurt? Now you're stuck having spent a ton of time working when you could have been earning money, and all you have to show for it is an Arabian that you can't even give away. What now?

Please don't saddle yourself with this horse and this situation. If you want to work for them, do so, but work for WAGES and put those in the bank. Really look long and hard into this barn. There are some sketchy barns out there with some really ethical issues you do not want to become involved in. Are their workers legal and documented? How are horses handled and treated? What drugs are used? What training practices are used? What happens to horses who don't cut it? Sometimes it takes a few months working in a situation for the bad things to start coming to light. Go work there if you want, but work for money, not a worthless horse that they can't get rid of any other way. Then if things work out, great. If not, you can cut your losses and get out of there free and clear.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

No one wishes another person to fail (or at least no one should) and for the horse's sake alone it would be wonderful if you succeeded and proved you were responsible but experience and a lot of hard knocks tells me that when you take a young inexperienced person and a young, sensitive, green, little handled horse with some behavioural problems and put them together the odds are in truth stacked against success. 
I was much younger than you when my grandfather 'over horsed me' with a young pony that was perfect to handle by experienced adults and was very well broke but still not suitable for a young person who'd been made to look good by previous schoolmasters. I remain grateful that my mother stepped in and insisted he was sold because I'm sure I'd have ended up hurt or at the least disillusioned by horse owning.


If these owners care about the filly and about your safety then they should help you spend some time with this horse on their property, under adult supervision, on a daily basis for a good 6 months to see how things progress before they allow you to go any further


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

ThatRoanHorse said:


> <snip> I'm here to learn and that's what I'm trying to do, but I keep getting critical feedback that I can't learn from.</snip>
> 
> I'm trying to get constructive feedback but all I'm getting is critical feedback.


The reason you can't learn from the actually very constructive feedback is not that it isn't useful, but that you don't want to hear it. None so deaf as those who refuse to hear. A near universal no, from many very experienced horsemen and women, and your reaction is "this isn't constructive feedback."

Here's my constructive feedback: let go of this harebrained disaster scheme, and go find yourself a cheap horse with something wrong with it that you might be able to handle, such as a mild unsoundness which has forced a retirement from an active career as a trained and finished horse, a horse someone is looking to retire which is sound and trained but too old for hard use, or a mare who was trained once but is rusty from broodmare service. 

If you want to prove you're responsible, I'd like to point out that nothing screams irresponsibility like ignoring all expert advice and getting into deep deep trouble which could have been so easily avoided by just a wee bit of common sense.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This thread has been closed as we feels that its run its course


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