# Dressage



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

GyPsY GiRL said:


> Hey everybody! I have done some dressage locally and placed but i was just wondering if there was anyone else out there that does dressage and has any tips on 20meter circles and getting your horse to bend more???


Your best bet is to find and work with a trainer.


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## Miss Katie (Dec 30, 2007)

How long have you been riding?? Do you understand how to use each of you aids seperatly?


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## GyPsY GiRL (Oct 14, 2008)

I do have a trainer and we have worked on it and gotten better.. i was just wondering if anyone had any extra tips..
miss katie-i have been riding for about 7-8 years but i started out western and english pleasure...i started getting into dressage about 2 years ago..
yea, i understand my aids.. i sometimes have trouble leaning too far foward and giving my horse the control, like letting my shoulders drop..


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## tawariel (Dec 27, 2008)

well, you have to give aids with your inner shank and hinder the horse with your outer shank from dropping out its hind quarters. 
take your inner hand a little bit up and give from time to time half-halts.
and don´t be stiff in your upper part of your body! turn your shoulders and your head in the direction you want to ride. 

these are the aids for a correct bending.


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## horsegirl123 (Jan 7, 2009)

Can you post a video so I can give you some advice with what you are doing wrong?


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## GyPsY GiRL (Oct 14, 2008)

tawariel said:


> well, you have to give aids with your inner shank and hinder the horse with your outer shank from dropping out its hind quarters.
> take your inner hand a little bit up and give from time to time half-halts.
> and don´t be stiff in your upper part of your body! turn your shoulders and your head in the direction you want to ride.
> 
> these are the aids for a correct bending.


Thank you! that's what i was asking...my trainer has explained it to me but i always get confused trying to do it all at once and usually end up getting stiff and not turning like i'm supposed to.. but thanks again!


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## GyPsY GiRL (Oct 14, 2008)

horsegirl123 said:


> Can you post a video so I can give you some advice with what you are doing wrong?


i don't have any videos of me doing dressage...i don't really have anybody to take any of me, everyone's usually riding. but i can try to get one... it's not that i don't know what i'm doing wrong, i just wanted some tips on how to keep my head and body turned and use my aides w/o getting distracted or frustrated w/ my horse and for someone to explain it and the girl above you did it step by step....lol


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

tawariel said:


> well, you have to give aids with your inner shank and hinder the horse with your outer shank from dropping out its hind quarters.
> take your inner hand a little bit up and give from time to time half-halts.
> and don´t be stiff in your upper part of your body! turn your shoulders and your head in the direction you want to ride.
> 
> these are the aids for a correct bending.


 
I respectfully disagree.


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## tawariel (Dec 27, 2008)

Spyder said:


> I respectfully disagree.


oh, do you?

well, that´s how I was taught to bend a horse correctly and it also looks correctly. and up to now all jugdes on tournaments have said to me how good I ride circels with such a beatiful bending. 

but would you be so kind to let us know of YOUR idea to bend a horse? or can you just disagree?


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## tawariel (Dec 27, 2008)

GyPsY GiRL said:


> Thank you! that's what i was asking...my trainer has explained it to me but i always get confused trying to do it all at once and usually end up getting stiff and not turning like i'm supposed to.. but thanks again!


don´t get frustrated. all things need its time. but someday you will do it automatically, I´m sure! good luck then!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

tawariel said:


> oh, do you?
> 
> well, that´s how I was taught to bend a horse correctly and it also looks correctly. and up to now all jugdes on tournaments have said to me how good I ride circels with such a beatiful bending.
> 
> but would you be so kind to let us know of YOUR idea to bend a horse? or can you just disagree?


Please explain this term

_your inner shank ...........outer shank_ 


And please explain the half halts on the inside rein

_take your inner hand a little bit up and give from time to time half-halts._


And please explain why the head and shoulder turns

_turn your shoulders and your head in the direction you want to ride. 
_.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

Well I'm no expert but here is how I get my horse to bend.

First, move his body first, as bending should be with horses body, not just the neck/head. Push his body with your inside leg, and gently "sponge" your inside rein to get his whole neck and head turned in, not just his face. A good excercise that I use is to make a circle in each corner (not each end, just the corner) with only your legs. Keep your inside shoulder and hip up, turn your head and body towards the center of the circle (but look up!) and _push_ him into a round circle. If his neck is out you can squeeze your inside rein, but mostly leg. 


Also try circling around things such as standards, and work on serpentines. When I was working hard on it, I was able to have my horse do tight, rounded circles with just my body and legs at the walk, trot and canter. If you work hard enough, you will be great at them, it just takes practice!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

tawariel said:


> oh, do you?
> 
> well, that´s how I was taught to bend a horse correctly and it also looks correctly. and up to now all jugdes on tournaments have said to me how good I ride circels with such a beatiful bending.
> 
> but would you be so kind to let us know of YOUR idea to bend a horse? or can you just disagree?


Personally, I've always been taught to bend a horse with my legs. Only flexion comes from the reins. On and if you're half halting with your reins, then you're pulling.

To bend a horse properly, the rider must first have complete body control and good position and seat. Then the horse must move forward rhythmically into a steady contact and allow the rider to control the stride while maintaining relaxation and schwung through the entire body. From here the rider should keep both hands down and soft, then apply a half halt and put the inside leg on at the girth and the outside leg behind the girth. The rider should take care to keep the shoulders straight on the line and the haunches should track behind the forehand (this is why we apply to outside leg). Then to establish a slight flexion a the poll the rider should slightly tilt the inside hand so the knuckles are facing downwards. This all happens in about 2 steps of the horse, hopefully less.
From this "bending" of the body, straightness is established (the haunches always following the forehand) and then collection is developed.
Of course, this is varied from horse to horse, but as a general summary it works.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

I don't think they meant apply half halts with the inside rein. I think those were two separate things. Lift the inside rein a tad, and also apply half halts- presumably using seat and leg (assuming the one they're talking to already knows what a proper half-halt is). 

You also said to apply half-halts. I'm not sure if you were contradicting yourself or saying to apply them in a different manner? :{ Giving you the benefit of the doubt and going to assume the latter.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Ne0n Zero said:


> I don't think they meant apply half halts with the inside rein. I think those were two separate things. Lift the inside rein a tad, and also apply half halts- presumably using seat and leg (assuming the one they're talking to already knows what a proper half-halt is).
> 
> You also said to apply half-halts. I'm not sure if you were contradicting yourself or saying to apply them in a different manner? :{ Giving you the benefit of the doubt and going to assume the latter.


Ha yeah sorry, now that I read that again it does kind of sound to be divided... I've been reading Middle English text all day 
And when you first start the tiniest tad of teaching bend, like on a 20m circle, your hands should both stay down and together so that the horse (and rider) don't learn to depend on the hand and can instead produce a correct bend from leg position and half halts. When more bend is needed, yes the rider can lift the inside hand, as long as they take care not to pull backwards.


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## Ne0n Zero (Dec 25, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Ha yeah sorry, now that I read that again it does kind of sound to be divided... I've been reading Middle English text all day
> And when you first start the tiniest tad of teaching bend, like on a 20m circle, your hands should both stay down and together so that the horse (and rider) don't learn to depend on the hand and can instead produce a correct bend from leg position and half halts. When more bend is needed, yes the rider can lift the inside hand, as long as they take care not to pull backwards.


Agreed.


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## tawariel (Dec 27, 2008)

Spyder said:


> Please explain this term
> 
> _your inner shank ...........outer shank_


I meant, that the leg which is inside is at the girth and gives active aids, the outside leg is a hand behind the girth, but gives only passive aids. clear?



Spyder said:


> And please explain the half halts on the inside rein
> 
> _take your inner hand a little bit up and give from time to time half-halts._


oh sorry. I actually wanted to say: give half-halts with the outside rein. the inner hand does nothing, except being a little bit higher.



Spyder said:


> And please explain why the head and shoulder turns
> 
> _turn your shoulders and your head in the direction you want to ride.
> _.


Why not? or do you look on the right side, while riding a bend to the left?


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## welshy (Jan 7, 2009)

yeh i've always been taught to bend the horse with my legs so that the whole of the horse is bending not just the head and neck, the track of the hindlegs should follow the track of the fore legs.

I've always been taught to bend a horse like this:

The horse should be moving forward positively maintaining balance, the rider should be balanced themself and be incontrol of the horse.
The outside hand should maintain a light contact allowing the horse to move freely so the horse can be moving forward actively.
The inside hand should be slightly open with the rider flexing the arm to great a slight bend of the neck.
The inside leg maintains contact at the girth to keep the horse pushed out and not falling in on the circle, the horse's body should bent around this leg.
The outside leg should maintain contact but be slightly off the girth.

Once the horse has started to bent and the rider can see the inside eye and nostril, both legs should be used to encourage the horse to bring it's hocks further underneath and th horse should flex it's topline.
The horse should then relax it's poll and jaw and should maintain the bent and be moving forward positively.
The rider should turn their head and shoulders inward in the direction they want to travel, keeping they're body relaxed but not dropping the shoulders.

That's how i was taught by my instructors hope it helps!!

anebel offtopic: but what do you mean by middle english text?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Spyder*  
_Please explain this term_

_your inner shank ...........outer shank_

I meant, that the leg which is inside is at the girth and gives active aids, the outside leg is a hand behind the girth, but gives only passive aids. clear?

That is the first time I have ever heard of your leg being referred to as a shank......interesting. To me a shank is the longish pied of metal on a curb bit.


Quote:

Originally Posted by *Spyder*  
_And please explain why the head and shoulder turns_

_turn your shoulders and your head in the direction you want to ride. 
._

Why not? or do you look on the right side, while riding a bend to the left? 


Riding straight with both halves of my body equally placed on either side of the horse is the way I ride. I would not increase weight by shifting my body position.


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## GyPsY GiRL (Oct 14, 2008)

tawariel said:


> don´t get frustrated. all things need its time. but someday you will do it automatically, I´m sure! good luck then!


 
thank you!


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## GyPsY GiRL (Oct 14, 2008)

1dog3cats17rodents- thanks I’ll definitely try that. I have ridden the circles in all four corners & done turns with just my legs and body but I haven’t tried the corner circles with just my reins.
Anebel- thank you! Definitely a lot of detail! I’ll try to remember all that next time!
Neon-zero = what is the right way to do half halts?...just to make sure I understand it correctly…
Tawariel- I understood what u meant…lol. & I was trained to turn my head a shoulders in the direction I was going too….if I’m correct ur horse follows all of ur body movements and telling them to turn but facing straight would most likely be a little confusing for them…?
Welshy- thanks! I think u backed up what others were trying to say! Lol
Question for everyone?.. if u rode with ur body equally in the saddle and didn’t turn ur body in the direction u were going, wouldn’t that be putting ur weight on the horse instead of relieving it and moving with it?


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

tawariel said:


> Why not? or do you look on the right side, while riding a bend to the left?


Wouldn't this make you unstable?


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

GyPsY GiRL said:


> Question for everyone?.. if u rode with ur body equally in the saddle and didn’t turn ur body in the direction u were going, wouldn’t that be putting ur weight on the horse instead of relieving it and moving with it?


No. I only look in the direction I'm going. You don't need to turn your body. Horses are very sensitive and they can feel the slight shifts in your body when you look where you want to go. They can feel this even in a bulky Western saddle like the one I use.


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## GyPsY GiRL (Oct 14, 2008)

Joshie said:


> No. I only look in the direction I'm going. You don't need to turn your body. Horses are very sensitive and they can feel the slight shifts in your body when you look where you want to go. They can feel this even in a bulky Western saddle like the one I use.


well when u turn ur head don't ur shoulders turn slightly?... not ur whole body just ur head a shoulders


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## anrz (Dec 21, 2008)

I KIND OF disagree with turning your head and body in the direction you want to go. Yes, it is okay if you do not do this excessively, just a slight change in your position, because otherwise you may begin to do this when you are riding corners and when you are about to turn off of the center line, etc. If this is the case, the horse that you are riding may start to anticipate what you are planning on doing, and begin to cut corners or turn off the centerline early. Then, when you apply leg pressure to move your horse out, you are just confusing them because you are giving them contradicting aids (i.e. asking them to turn and go strait at the same time). While a slight change in your upper body positioning (and head) is alright, I think that too much of a change MAY create problems for you and your horse off of a circle if you tend to turn your body off of the circle, also.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

OK, just to clear some things up.
First about the turning, think about it this way. If you have a small child on your shoulders and it turns to look at something and you aren't prepared for it, it's going to catch you off balance and you are going to have to try to re balance and keep the kid on your shoulders all without falling down. This is exactly what you're doing to your horse if you're turning your body to make a corner or circle. However if the child on your shoulder slightly nudges you in the direction they want to go or look, then you can make a balanced turn and stay on your own two feet really easily. So in short, to turn our horses all we need to do is tell them where we want to go and let them turn so that they can stay balanced. Keep your outside hand down, inside leg on at the girth and outside leg back with the entire outside leg on and then just turn your wrist for a flexion. Done.

As for a half halt: It is really hard to explain the feel and timing required for a half halt over the internet. Basically it is the combination of bracing your back, applying leg and riding with the seat in order to shorten a horse's stride and bring their frame more up while shifting weight onto the haunches. For such a simple name, it is a very complicated aid and I highly recommend seeking a dressage coach to help you develop a feel and timing to correctly apply this aid.

And GG, for an answer to your final question this is a really complicated thing to answer but as others have said horses are very sensitive. The first thing that we always need to worry about on a horse is staying balanced and "rooted" in the saddle. Think about the kid on your shoulders analogy and it should make more sense. If you want a bit more of an explanation (aka a novel) then just PM me.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

GyPsY GiRL said:


> well when u turn ur head don't ur shoulders turn slightly?... not ur whole body just ur head a shoulders





~*~anebel~*~ said:


> First about the turning, think about it this way. If you have a small child on your shoulders and it turns to look at something and you aren't prepared for it, it's going to catch you off balance and you are going to have to try to re balance and keep the kid on your shoulders all without falling down.


Gypsy, I don't turn my shoulders. 

Anebel, yes, you explained it very well!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Joshie said:


> Gypsy, I don't turn my shoulders.
> 
> Anebel, yes, you explained it very well!


Thanks! It's how one of my coaches explained it to me years ago and I've never forgotten!


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## welshy (Jan 7, 2009)

I've always been taught to turn my head in the way you want to go but that may just be for jumping like when your jumping a fence you then on landing turn your head to the next fence so that you can see the direct path for the next fence and save time.



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> OK, just to clear some things up.
> First about the turning, think about it this way. If you have a small child on your shoulders and it turns to look at something and you aren't prepared for it, it's going to catch you off balance and you are going to have to try to re balance and keep the kid on your shoulders all without falling down.
> 
> As for a half halt: Basically it is the combination of bracing your back, applying leg and riding with the seat in order to shorten a horse's stride and bring their frame more up while shifting weight onto the haunches. For such a simple name, it is a very complicated aid and I highly recommend seeking a dressage coach to help you develop a feel and timing to correctly apply this aid.


i agree with this it's perhaps better to just use leg aids to tell the horse where you want to go.

And the half halts are very complicated best not to just read it from somewhere and try it better if you have it hands on with someone showing you.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

I will turn head, shoulders, and waist IF I'm riding a green horse, and only AFTER I begin cuing for the turn. If I'm riding a trained horse, I only turn my head, and let my body follow the horse's turn/bend/movement.

I think it's a mistake that many Dressage riders make, NOT looking where they're going. I see too many looking down or looking at the ground in front of their horse. You should be able to feel your horse's position and use your eyes to look where you're going.

I agree with others, a good bend comes from leg aids first, with reins just guiding the head/neck. Your inside leg should be under you, in a "normal" position. I squeeze or bump with that leg to encourage the ribs over. 

I will lift up the inside rein on a green or stiff horse. It helps to make your cue more clear, and lift up the horse's shoulder a bit, to make the bend smoother. 

I also like to "close" my outside rein toward the neck a bit, to encourage a turn. I won't close the outside rein on a circle though, unless the horse is trying to over-bend and pop the shoulder out.

I also prefer to half-halt with my inside rein on a circle. With most of the horses I have ridden, giving half halts with the outside rein may stiffen the horse or make the horse "bobble" on the circle. I only use half halts with the outside rein when on a straight away or diagonal, or if the horse bulges with the shoulder on the circle/turn.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Also, if you've been working with this trainer for a year or two and your 20 meter circles still aren't great, then it's time to find a new trainer.... The 20 meter circle is a very basic manuever that should only take a few lessons for horse and rider to figure out.


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## tawariel (Dec 27, 2008)

Spyder said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Spyder*
> _Please explain this term_
> 
> ...


ups. sorry, I´m not a native english speaker :wink: but the word was so similar to german (there it´s called schenkel and I thought that would be the same... )


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## GyPsY GiRL (Oct 14, 2008)

Anrz- thanks!

Anebel- thank you soo much for just telling me how to do it and not putting any other input or criticism into it! I didn’t really realize where I put this one & just wanted to see how everybody did their 20 m circles… but thanks again! That analogy really helps too!

Luvs2ride1979- thanks for ur reply! I haven’t had a trainer for a year or two…only a couple of months actually, & she is fighting cancer so I’m not always promised my lesson for that week…so It’s been an on and off again thing so basically i started “training” myself 2 years ago… but I moved out to the barn I’m at now with that trainer & haven’t been there for even a year yet… also, I have gotten my 20 m circles down pretty well…I was just askin everyone if they had any tips on 20m circles and getting their horse to bend…and I told anebel that I didn’t notice I put this thread under the criticize section..so sorry..lol. I just wanted to hear what everyone else had to say.

Tawariel- it’s ok..i was pretty sure u were talking about ur leg anyways


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Your welcome, GG!


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## crankyhorse (Jan 15, 2009)

Wow, Talk about over analysis.
In the words of the great Franz Maringer "The most common fault of riders is that they do not look where they want to ride."

If you want a horse to follow a line, you must follow it with your eyes and your "belly button" so to speak. 
You will find this is a very simple way to get the rest of your body in the correct position. And it is true for pretty much anything you do with a horse. If your not looking where you want to go how on earth is he going to know?

If your eyes and belly button are following an arc or whatever shape you are riding you will find you automatically have your outside leg and inside leg in the correct position without thinking about it.
Try it on a swivel chair.
Turn the belly button, turn the eyes, automatically the head and shoulders turn, outside leg sits behind the girth, inside leg sits on the girth. Presto! The hard you turn the smaller the circle etc.

Then just practice, but practice _your_ body movements and balance and the horse will find it much easier than being micro managed every step of the way.

....later C.H.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

Well posted CH. That's they way I instruct beginners that I help. Turning your body in the direction you want to go (without leaning in the saddle) helps keep your weight in the right place in the saddle and gives the horse more clear signals. 

You own weight and position in the saddle is a powerful influence on the horse. It's one of the ways those top Dressage riders (that are actually GOOD) can take the horse through a Grand Prix ride without visibly moving much in the saddle ;-).


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

i have never heard it put that way... eyes and belly buttons... How funny! I can't wait to go home and put it to the test!


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## GyPsY GiRL (Oct 14, 2008)

crankyhorse said:


> Wow, Talk about over analysis.
> In the words of the great Franz Maringer "The most common fault of riders is that they do not look where they want to ride."
> 
> If you want a horse to follow a line, you must follow it with your eyes and your "belly button" so to speak.
> ...


 
thanks! I think that's one of the best ways i have heard it explained!! lol
i'm gonna go try that!

luvs2ride- the grand prix is a good way to think bout it. thanks


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

And we must all remember that in a 20 m circle the bend is so minimal that there really should be no need for a turn of the shoulders or head to accomplish this move.


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## katieandduke (Apr 13, 2008)

im confused... some are saying to turn the head and shoulders and others are saying you don"t... which one is correct?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

The best information becomes easier with pictures.

Here we see the start of a turn. The rider is reasonably straight but the inside shoulder is dropped and the head turned. This causes the whole inside of the rider to fall inward and notice the hand has done that also. This now caused the rider to pull the head into the circle and the horse as a result has fallen on the inside shoulder.










Compare the above picture to this one following where the rider is equally placed in the saddle, the head is not turned and the riders hands are where they should be. The horse is properly flexed (notice there is very little bend which is correct).










These are also correct


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

On a 20 meter circle on a well trained horse, no, you don't need to turn your shoulders.

On a green horse who's having troubles, or on a sharper turn, yes, you should turn your shoulders a tad. You should NOT *drop* your inside shoulder when turning, that is incorrect and will result in a rushed turn/circle or bulged outside shoulder on the horse. Your shoulders need to stay up and back, over your center of gravity.


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## katieandduke (Apr 13, 2008)

ok.. thanks spyder and luvs2ride... i understand this a little better... the pictures did help me.. haha.. i must see something to learn it..


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