# Weird questions from a faraway country



## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Hello

I've been reading this forum for a while and finally decided to come out 
I'm from Romania, I do not own a horse but I lease for mountain trail rides + almost weekly lessons. 

Western riding is close to non existent here;we have quite a few dressage, races, show jumping competitions, but I doubt I'll ever see a barrel race for example. So for me all the info I can gather is from all over the internet.
I have a few questions, perhaps you could answer:

1. I noticed in a few videos that western breed horses that were shown were keeping their head very very low. In here we are by contrary advised to pick up the reins shorter and raise the horse's head. Why do the western discipline horses keep their heads low, and how does that help the rider / the horse?

2. I hope this does not sound offending in any sort of way but I noticed that no matter how fast a horse is in a barrel race, still gets whipped / kicked a LOT by the rider. I understand the aim is to obtain the shortest time possible, but it looks so .....don't know..eh. Do they HAVE to kick / smack the living guts out of that horse? 

3. I am always advised (actually roared at) to keep the reins short, to "feel the horse's mouth in your hand" (approximate quote from a trainer) I tend to let them however a bit elastic, especially if I ride a horse that seems a bit more sensitive and uncomfortable
I've been told 1000 times that letting a rein loose means no control over the horse and a big accident potential in case the horse spooks.
However I noticed most western riding is done with a very loose rein. the horse seems free to move his head and neck wherever he wants to. This shatters a bit the "mouth n hand" theory. How do western riders control the horse then? Only from the legs / seat?

5. The horses over there are surprisingly cheap lately. I think a plane ticket from Romania to US would be around..3 horses . 
I've been watching a lot of youtube clips of a lady Fallon Taylor. Apparently she is a retired barrel racer and now trains and sells horses. Around 1 year ago the prices were around 12k, 15k, now they ended up on 2.5k, 800$ even, and so on.
Is it the credit crunch?

thanks a lot for reading!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

inaclick said:


> 1. I noticed in a few videos that western breed horses that were shown were keeping their head very very low. In here we are by contrary advised to pick up the reins shorter and raise the horse's head. Why do the western discipline horses keep their heads low, and how does that help the rider / the horse?
> 
> *Horses that are shown in Western Pleasure are trained to move very slowly and keep thier head low but many other disiplines focus on more on how the horse moves and performs. All of my horses work for a living and I want there heads at or slightly above wither height.*
> 
> ...


My response is bold in red.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Western and English evolved so differently, it's hard to compare the two. The western loose rein shows training and respect for the rider. If a horse takes off, you pull back on the reins and the slack is lost. Out bits aren't designed to accomodate being able to feel every change in a horse's mouth. In English you can feel everything, in Western, we teach horses to neck rein. A curb bit accomodates pressure in the right places by laying a rein against the horse's neck, not through direct contact with the horse's mouth.

As for barrel racing....well, let's just say every discipline has it's nuts, the riders that are determined your horse will not go faster unless you kick the crap out of him and jerk the reins incessantly.

Hope I answered your questions 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Hello

Thanks, that clarifies things a bit.
Yes indeed, there are nutcases in every discipline. I am sort of relieved to find out that it's not a general rule the behavior that I noticed.

I'll do some more net research on the curb bit, not quite sure I understand how that functions.
Overall my first impression about the western riding was that it is much better and with a practical foundation both for rider and horse. the loose rein, the relaxed position of the horse and so on. Even the saddle looks so much friendlier.

However the more I research the more I find that as usually, when people forget what they started from, they exaggerate and do all they can to win. It saddens me deeply to find (from all over the internet, including this forum actually) about certain practices for forcing the horse to exaggerate their natural gaits and such. 
Oh well. 
Kinda same thing in dressage, just looks different.

Since I started riding quite late and I am also inconsistent in my training (cannot ride daily) I doubt I'll ever compete in anything. however, the more I read and find, the..more i wonder if there even is a discipline that does not force and melt the horse into something very close to abuse when it reaches top competition levels. Anything, racing, barrel racing, western pleasure, Spanish dressage...it starts out as a beautiful idea but seems to finish on a very rotten top.

Sorry, I got sad 

On a happier note, your horse breeds are among most talented and beautiful i have seen.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

inaclick said:


> 1. I noticed in a few videos that western breed horses that were shown were keeping their head very very low. In here we are by contrary advised to pick up the reins shorter and raise the horse's head. Why do the western discipline horses keep their heads low, and how does that help the rider / the horse?
> 
> Western pleasure is, as it's name implies, a pleasure class. Meaning that the horse that wins is *supposed* to be the horse that looks like the most fun to ride. According to AQHA rules (could be wrong, this is what I remember from horse judging) the head and neck technically are not supposed to travel lower than the withers. My theory is some where along the line horses that started winning pleasure classes were slow, collected and traveled with a naturally low head set. Imitators came along and saw that the winners were slow and carried their heads low.



So there you go, I had more to write, but breakfast is ready.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> 3. I am always advised (actually roared at) to keep the reins short, to "feel the horse's mouth in your hand" (approximate quote from a trainer) I tend to let them however a bit elastic, especially if I ride a horse that seems a bit more sensitive and uncomfortable
> I've been told 1000 times that letting a rein loose means no control over the horse and a big accident potential in case the horse spooks.
> However I noticed most western riding is done with a very loose rein. the horse seems free to move his head and neck wherever he wants to. This shatters a bit the "mouth n hand" theory. How do western riders control the horse then? Only from the legs / seat?
> 
> *Alot of the control of western horses is through the legs and seat but certainly not all. I think it boils down to just a difference in the uses of horses and the culture that predates it. I am not riding my horses over 5 foot fences and you are not roping a cow and pulling it with your horse. If your horse goes out of control on a loose rein it's likely only a matter of time before it's out of control with contact.*


Perfectly put. An old friend of mine that works cattle (and is obviously biased) once told me that you don't want to 'micromanage' a working horse. You want to teach it the job to be done (e.g. roping, penning, etc) and then allow them to think, give them their head, and have the freedom to do it. We ride all our mares on a loose rein and have never had one want to bolt or runaway.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

inaclick said:


> Hello
> 
> Thanks, that clarifies things a bit.
> Yes indeed, there are nutcases in every discipline. I am sort of relieved to find out that it's not a general rule the behavior that I noticed.
> ...


I agree with you, especially the part I put in bold. It seems like when the competition gets tough, it becomes about money and winning and not about enjoying the horse or caring about his health and well being. Sigh! 

I ride western, but just on the trails and out in the woods. The saddles are very secure, and if you find the right one, very comfortable for horse and rider. I almost always ride on a loose rein. The only time I usually pick up contact with the mouth is when I go faster than a walk and I want some collection. 

Bolting has never really been an issue. If one should bolt, I just turn him around in a circle. You could literally sit a horse right back on his haunches if he tried to run off with you in a curb, but I would never want to do that! But that's the control you have over the horse. I would be more afraid of a horse bolting with me in a snaffle, because then you have very little in the form of brakes. The horse respects the bit and you have to use it very little. It's like having power steering and power brakes so to speak.  A curb is not meant to have constant contact or the horse would have no relief. He respects it and it's there when you need it. He can't usually run off with you with a curb bit because you have so much more control than in a snaffle. 

I like the finesse I get from a curb.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

inaclick said:


> Hello
> 
> I've been reading this forum for a while and finally decided to come out
> I'm from Romania, I do not own a horse but I lease for mountain trail rides + almost weekly lessons.
> ...


 
Answers in bold


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

It bothers me to that barrel racers are kick kick kicking even when the horse is giving its all. The riders look like maniacs out there, and how do they expect for the horse to yeild to leg pressure out of the arena when they beat them all the way out?

When I barreled, I used my seat and the squeeze of my legs and I MAY have needed to roll my spurs ONCE to wake the horse up, but other than that I let the horse be responsible for himself.

But, maybe thats why I never won anything big. It's sad, really.


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## damnedEvans (Jan 23, 2010)

inaclick said:


> Hello
> ....
> 
> 5. The horses over there are surprisingly cheap lately. I think a plane ticket from Romania to US would be around..3 horses .
> ...


I've been watching that lady too. She has some incredible horses for sale, very well trained from what I saw. The princes there dropped a lot in the last time. But here we have horses that are selling for a big price if you take into consideration their training. A well breed horse sells for 1000 - 2000 € but he is not very well trained or not trained at all. But there you can buy a horse from the slaughter, very well trained for 500 - 600 $ or less, or a registered trail horse for 1500 - 2000 $. Here for less than 500 $ you can buy only mixed breed cart horses. So I think that they have cheaper horses that are a better quality than what we have.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

I know.

I think it's because over there (in US) there are also "normal people" who own horses.
Here it's either:
- very rich people, never had to work 
- very poor people who will use the horse daily for very hard chores. I'd don;t want to generalize...but these are usually the abused, beat up, not fed horses that arrive at our shelter.

People like me, meaning with a medium salary, can only dream.
It's not the horse itself, I could get a good horse for let's say 1000E, it's the 250E / month box rent + 100E if you want anyone to take a look at him and walk him + 150E if you want it trained + god knows how much a vet if something happens +...+...+....

Someone estimated the general costs for having a horse at a barn here fed and trained to around 500E / month.
Well my salary is 700 :/


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Peanut pushing is seen a lot with quarter horses but is not good because it throws their balance off but for some reason some new kids on the block seem to think that is how to ride western. It's not good for either horse nor rider it is in fact dangerous. A horses head should be felt at the reins collected so that you have control when the unexpected happens which it will.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

*It's all about training, isn't it?*

Inaclick, first of all, congratulations on your pregnancy!! Your life will soon change so much, so incredibly! You will be challenged to find a way to harmonize children and horses; your two loves. Anyway, best wishes to you and also, let me compliment you on your excellent English!! Very impressive.

.A skilled dressage rider should not be constantly holding the reins "shorter and shorter" or tighter and tighter. Only tight enough to make contact with the horse and teach him to "give" to the bit. A well trained dressage horse will learn that if he gives to the pressure of the bit, his rider will give to him (give him some relief from bit pressure) Right? He will come TO the bit, but not lean on it or fight the rider. But this depends on the rider being sensitve and rewarding the horse when he gives to the bit. The bad rider keeps intense pressuree on the horse, no matter what the horse does.does. The horse can never get a release. He will "Fight" the bit and become harder to control, requiring more and more pressure on the bit.
The good Western horse usually starts out it's training in a regular snaffle bit. He learns to give to the bit and be soft in the mouth . This softness is VERY important in Western riding. The master Western riders talk abou this a lot. After the horse understands giving to the snaffle bit and direct reining (like English riding), he can then be taught to neck rein and be soft in a curb bit. 
However, it ALL DEPENDS ON THE TRAIING. It all depends on being careful to teach the horse to give to the bit by making sure that YOU , the rider, give the horse the reward of release when he really does give to the bit. DONT ride the brakes!!!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It _is_ all about the training, tiny. My horses would freak if I suddenly started riding them on constant contact but again, it's much a matter of needs and tradition as Kevin said.

I have to maneuver my horse with one hand because I rope, hence the curb bits (not that it can't be done in a snaffle, you just get more refinement with less cue in the curb). I ride on a loose rein because that's how I was taught. I am sure it would be just as hard for a typical English rider to ride on the buckle all the time as it would be for me to ride with contact and both hands. No doubt a show jumper or eventer would feel completely out of control cantering around with reins that looked like this LOL.









Western pleasure and barrel racing are two of the events that I honestly don't understand. I mean, I get the idea behind them, to show how well trained and controlled your horse is but so much of what we see these days is not horsemanship at all, just people doing whatever they have to do to win.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Wow my thread revived! 

Thanks a lot for the answers, it helps a lot to understand the differences and things that seemed weird or puzzling are making sense now


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Yep it all comes down to the trainning more than the bit.
trainning the horses yes but it's ok to disagree with me but I think trainning the rider to have a soft hand is even more important.
The horses I've seen with the toughest mouths were ones used as rentals for trail riding back in the 1960 when everyone wanted to ride but had no clue how to.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

Yep... all about training.









 




 




 




 
and a horse loving its job...





 
and wants to work...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

*training*

Of course, training is totally dependent on the rider having good timing and soft hands. That is what I meant. The horse is ALWAYS in training, so if one rides him sometimes with the mindset that they are in training and has high expectations for the horse to be doing what is asked, but then on the way home the rider forgets all this and rides the brakes again; what happened to the training? It's ALL training as far as the horse is concerned. The rider turned on the "whoa" signal, or the "give to the bit" request, but forgot to turn it off when the horse complied.

Yeah, the thing I am working on every minute that I ride is remembering to "turn off the cue". When we take lessons frequently instructors spend the lesson telling the student to "turn on" this or that aid; pressure on a rein, pressure against the girth area, behind the girth area, squeeze him . . . what not. But we forget to turn OFF the signal once the horse has done what we asked him to do. It's in the OFF that the learning takes place. And we need to be darn quick and sensitive to turning OFF the aid. If we don't pay attention we will miss the golden moment when the horse answered our request and we need to immediately release the pressure and say "Thank you". And many riders I see (and I am in the same boat) tend to ride at times with the signal ON, just ON ON ON ON. LIke incessantly banging the horse's side with a boot. It becomes meaningless garble to the horse and trains him to ignore the boot. So remembering to Turn OFF the signal is even more important than turning it on in the first place. We should all periodically check ourselves and say, "Are all signals OFF unless I have something specific to ask my horse?"

Ranting here!

Sorry.


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## corporate pride (Feb 23, 2010)

smrobs said:


> It _is_ all about the training, tiny. My horses would freak if I suddenly started riding them on constant contact but again, it's much a matter of needs and tradition as Kevin said.
> 
> I have to maneuver my horse with one hand because I rope, hence the curb bits (not that it can't be done in a snaffle, you just get more refinement with less cue in the curb). I ride on a loose rein because that's how I was taught. I am sure it would be just as hard for a typical English rider to ride on the buckle all the time as it would be for me to ride with contact and both hands.* No doubt a show jumper or eventer would feel completely out of control cantering around with reins that looked like this LOL.*
> 
> ...


actually i'm a showjumper and eventer, i do ride my horses like that. i train them in dressage but on trails and warm up and cool down i ride on the buckle  i do it at shows and events and i do it at home. some people may think "wow that horse is quiet" untill he would go "MONSTER" and bail off :lol: honestly i don't know how you can call yourself a good rider if you can't build up the trust to let go of the reins and still have control....wow maybe i'm in the wrong disipline:?


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