# joining up



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Some horses just won't "join up". It's not a big deal. It's more important to build a trusting relationship than worry about him following you around.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

What kinds of horses won't join up? Is it a leader issue? Is it a herd status thing, head hancho won't do it no way!? Is it a trust issue? My horse comes to me when I have food and I can walk up to him just fine but not when I have a halter, but in the joining up game he totally failed. LOL


----------



## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

I agree that joining up isn't as important as the relationship you build beyond that. 

I've used join up type methods a number of times, usually with horses that either haven't been handled at all or were hard to catch, and yes, getting a horse to join up is harder than the trainers make it look in their videos. Sometimes it takes 2-3 sessions before the horse finally decides to really trust the person doing the join up. 

All of the horses I've done this with did learn to follow me, but only about half of the horses followed and begin looking to me as leader and protector. These horses, I could do anything I wanted with once they learned to follow. The other half I could get to follow, but they wouldn't trust me enough to let me touch them. With those horses I couldn't start a real relationship until I had a halter on them. Oddly, the horses that _had been handled_ before were LESS likely to relax and let me pet and halter them.

I think as a horseman it is good to have knowledge of how to join up with a horse, because there are times it is a very useful skill, but it does not replace other ground work.


----------



## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

I think everything you mentioned plays a part in join up, but it comes down to trust and leadership. If a horse doesn't see you as it's leader it WILL NOT join up with you. Whereas some horses are very willing to let you be the leader, but still not trust you. 

That paragraph probably didn't clear anything up for you.:? Let me give you a couple examples.

*Leadership Issue:*
My Mini stallion was very pushy and dominant towards me. I didn't know what I was doing when I got him and I taught him all sorts of bad habits he didn't need to know. I had successfully done join up with two of my neighbour's horses, so I tried it on my stud. He did not see me as a good leader so it took him several days to finally give in and be submissive enough to follow me. No problems haltering or touching because he saw me as not a threat, I just gained a lot of his respect. I would use different methods now, but I thought join up magic then. 

*Trust Issue:*
My friend bought a horse that was a fantastic beginner's riding horse, with just one flaw; he was really hard to catch. He was in his late teens, most of his life he had been roped any time someone wanted to use him. He took several lessons before he would follow, and when he followed he always stayed arm's length away. It took weeks before he would let me touch him, then it took weeks more before he would let me touch him if I had a rope or halter in my hands. Clearly he was a victim of abuse, and it took him a very long time to get over it and join up mentally as well as physically. If I were presented a horse with a similar history today I would still use join up(though I'd do a better job of it now).


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

I don't know Jesse's past, I have had him almost a year, he will be 15 in June. He lets me walk up to him almost anywhere, but 3/4's of the time he turns away from me. I almost always have to approach his rear flank, that's his comfort. It would be nice to have him look at me and be happy to see me. I tried the looking down thing, the sidestepping thing, etc. It always seems like he is ready to bolt. I was hoping that joining up would help. When I do get up to him, he puts his head down in my chest, deep sigh, ready for a pet. When I tried what John Lyon's did, Jesse ran around the arena for 2 hours before he held my gaze. I have some more tricks to try as I only tried it the one time, but it broke my heart to see him breathing so hard. When he finally did look at me, I praised him and held my ground not daring to move toward him giving him a break. One step sent him off again. He is more worried about everything around him than looking at me. He never once turned his body towards me, never took a step in my direction. He is very spooky on the trail and I'm too old to deal with a spooky horse. I was hoping joining up would help build trust. Perhaps I did it wrong and I'm anxious to try again tomorrow.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Are you doing this in a round pen? 
The idea with join up is that your horse will stop looking outward for somehting to attache to, and look to you for that. So, it's not just a matter of running him ragged, in my opinion. You have to interrupt him when his thoughts go outward.
That can be done by a variety of way; making him run faster, turning him the other direction, making a loud noise , smacking the whip on the ground, raising the flag, dancingt around like a lunatic, what EVER makes your horse stop looking outward. He may not choose to look at you, though. So you let him look for something to mentall hook his attention onto. If he chooses something outside, you quickly interrupt that connection. the instant it's broken, do nothing. Wait for you horse to search for the right answer. Let him choose. If he chooses outward, interrupt and allow him another chance to choose. If he chooses you, then stand quietly, maybe turn a bit sideways or back up a bit and "invite" him to come closer. If he doesn't, but he just stands there, you walk up and pet him briefly, then leave. If he then follows you, that is join up.

If he doesn't, then wait for him to put his attention away from you, then intterrupt it and wait and see if he looks at you. Every time he chooses YOU over the grass, the outter pen, the sky , the other horses, the wind , you-name-it, YOu give him peace. Everytime he leaves you and chooses something else, you make that a "noisy" place to be. If he's not sure, and he appears to be thinking or "searching" for the right place to put his attention, then you wait and see if he wont' choose you. If not, then interrupt. 
When you get him to follow you a bit, quit for the day. you can work on better following in subsequent days.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

LOL yes, I did all this. My first goal was to get him to walk towards me, then it changed to just allowing me to walk up to him with the halter in my hand. This was after two hours of trying all you mentioned. As I said, I have some more info to try tomorrow. The funny thing about Jesse is that I think he's never been working with, just gotten and ridden. I don't think anybody tried to bond or play with him. I think I am his 7th owner and I plan to be his last. So I really think he has no idea what I want, but tomorrow is another day and I won't give up. He stands his ground and I wonder if that has to do with dominance or mistrust. It's hard to tell. He walks up to me fine when I go out there to feed twice a day. That's before I get the hay, I always go to say hi to him first since he is always waiting with his head hung over the fence nickering. That's a good sign IMO!


----------



## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

jennyandjesse said:


> I don't know Jesse's past, I have had him almost a year, he will be 15 in June. He lets me walk up to him almost anywhere, but 3/4's of the time he turns away from me. I almost always have to approach his rear flank, that's his comfort. It would be nice to have him look at me and be happy to see me. I tried the looking down thing, the sidestepping thing, etc. It always seems like he is ready to bolt. I was hoping that joining up would help. When I do get up to him, he puts his head down in my chest, deep sigh, ready for a pet. When I tried what John Lyon's did, Jesse ran around the arena for 2 hours before he held my gaze. I have some more tricks to try as I only tried it the one time, but it broke my heart to see him breathing so hard. When he finally did look at me, I praised him and held my ground not daring to move toward him giving him a break. One step sent him off again. He is more worried about everything around him than looking at me. He never once turned his body towards me, never took a step in my direction. He is very spooky on the trail and I'm too old to deal with a spooky horse. I was hoping joining up would help build trust. Perhaps I did it wrong and I'm anxious to try again tomorrow.


What you describe here is why I don't do join up very often any more. Of the 15+ horses I have used this method with,(I learned the John Lyons way too) looking back, only 3 of them do I think it really was the best training option.

A word of caution, a horse can learn to run a way from you rather than join up. I have made this mistake before, a Mini was given to me because he was hard to catch, and I don't know if it was something I did wrong, or if this just wasn't a good method for this horse, but after 2-3 sessions he started bolting around the pen like crazy any time he laid eyes on me. He did eventually join up but I could have skipped a lot of trouble if I had chosen a different approach.

Please take this for whatever you think it's worth, I don't want to come off as a know-it-all and I'm not the trainer John Lyons is, but since you can catch your horse I would use a different method than join up. 

To be specific, I'd use the lead rope to teach a cue to teach my horse to yield his hip and face you. Start by driving his hip away from you using the halter to bring his head around to you, slowly try to use the halter less and less until you can get him to face you without using the lead at all maybe even hanging it over his neck, he will eventually respond to this cue any time you want to catch him. I would probably also "cheat" and give him a treat any time he faced up to me _really nicely_ with very little pressure on the lead.

This method might take a little longer, but there is much less chance of error.


----------



## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

I actually got to learn how to do a join-up first hand from Monty Roberts - and it is no where near as easy as it looks. If, as the human, you make the slightest, and I do mean slightest, wrong body posturing, all your work goes out the window in a matter of seconds. 

Joining up has very little to do with making the horse tired. (When Monty Roberts joined-up with my horse, my horse never went faster than a workign trot.) It has to do with forcing the horse to pay attention to you and ony to you. I believe it is a great tool, but it is just that, a tool. If it does not help you, don't use it. 

I really like join-up and use it on most of the hoses I work with, but not all of them. 

After three sessions my daughter got a mediocre join-up from her filly after 90 minutes of work last week. I snuck in two days later and got a decent join-up three days later. Four days after that and it litterly takes two or three minutes to get join-up from the filly who will now do anything for her person. This is a semi-wild 2 1/2 year old. What can now be done with her has now tripled. She has lost almost all fear and has gained enough trust that she has stopped fighting for domanice with people.

So, do I think it works? yes. Without a doubt. 

Do I think that if done incorrectly it does more harm than good? YES. 

Join-up only works if you are 100% cued into the really really subtle cues that both the horse and you the human are doing. It is really hard.


----------



## Lauren Woodard (Jul 7, 2010)

*coming*

Under what circumstances would it NOT be good for your horse to come to you. The problem people have with what can be called join up is that the underlying concept is not understood so the training isn't right.
While leadership, respect and trust are important to develop, they must be... developed.
However, if done right and the person is good, teaching a horse to come is a matter of positioning.
There's a short video on my site, but it takes a long time to edit and write and teach this sort of thing to a person, not a horse.


----------



## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

I just reread your post... let me point a few things out before you try again. 

1) slow down
2) push him with your body only, squared shoulders, angry looking face, Only if you have to, use a swinging rope.
3) when he looks out of the pen, make him change directions - even if he has only gone five feet in that direction - sometimes they really enjoy this part and you have to play this game with them until they are done. If you don't have all day, don't even start.
4) I like to talk constantly to them, tell them when they are good
5) reward correct behavior immediately - 
* looking towards you with a "good boy" and relax your shoulders push less
* a nice transisition to the other direction - see above
6) remember, you want him to relax and listen to you, not fall over exhausted - the slower they go, the easier it is to keep them from getting hysterical - which can happen really easily
7) you need several signs (tell him good boy, push less each time you get one)
*the horse will start licking and chewing 
*the horse will lower thier head - sometimes thier nose will hit the gound, but sometimes it is just six inches 
*he will stop hitting the rail and come in a foot or two - don't push him back out, he's fine coming closer to you
*he will get airplane ears
8) once you get those, or even most of those, wait for him to glance in your direction, and stop dead. Go from angry face to slack jawed and starign at the ground. Roll your shoulders and crunch them in, making yourself as small as possible. I will even bend my knees to shrink a few inches shorter. Think completely submissive thoughts.


If the very first time all you get is the horse stops and stares at you like you just grew tenticles. Good enough. I like to offer up a treat and be done for the day. Try it again tomorrow. Monty Roberts can get a join-up every time. I'm not him.

If the horse walks all the way up to your back and ruffles your hair. OMG JACKPOT!!! Lots of love, you now have a puppy dog to follow you around. Play with the horse like it was a dog... hehehehe


----------



## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

Yadlim, I appreciated everything you posted! It sounds like the Robert's method of join up is much more like what I do _now, _and is much better than what I had originally learned.

The Lyons videos I learned from,(out of date now, he's reversed his opinion on some of the methods he taught) recommended getting the horse tired. The problem I had with it was that the horse followed not because he WANTED to be with me, but because he thought he HAD to be with me. I was going to run his lovin' butt off if he didn't follow me.

To the OP, I still think join up is really difficult to learn from videos and forum posts, and I agree with yadlim that it is *possible* to do more harm than good. I stand by my earlier recommendation of trying other training methods first, but if you are certain join up is what you want to do, please look into the Monty Roberts way, I wish I had.


----------



## Jwheeler331 (Dec 20, 2011)

So when you finally get the horse to join up......what then. Is that just a starting point for getting him to pay attention to you.....so you can then train the horse to do things you want?


----------



## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

Join-up is just a starting point. Once you have join-up the horse is now fully focused on you. 

For example, Sunday, after getting her filly to join up, my daughter worked on having the filly stand calm while she used a soft cotten rope to pick up and hold all four feet. 

It is a tool for teaching respect and trust. A horse is more open to new ideas and scary things right after join-up.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

Well, he did it, kinnda. I used a bit of what Yadlim wrote and a bit what I learned from my good friend and Jesse followed me! How cool that was and it only took an hour today with everything that we did. I don't even think he broke a sweat this time around. Of course back in his pasture was a totally different story LOL! But I have high hopes!!!


----------



## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

*Great! I'm so glad it work for you!* Give him some time and he will face up and follow any time you ask.


----------



## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

YEAH!!!!!!

Next time it will be much easier! The more you do it, the better it gets.

Congrats and just keep working on him, he will come around. (Oh, and give him a hug for me!)


----------



## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

yadlim said:


> I really like join-up and use it on most of the hoses I work with, but not all of them.
> 
> After three sessions my daughter got a mediocre join-up from her filly after 90 minutes of work last week. I snuck in two days later and got a decent join-up three days later. Four days after that and it litterly takes two or three minutes to get join-up from the filly who will now do anything for her person. This is a semi-wild 2 1/2 year old. What can now be done with her has now tripled. She has lost almost all fear and has gained enough trust that she has stopped fighting for domanice with people.
> 
> ...


i would disagree with it being difficult.
I have done it with 2 horses so far, and it worked like a charm both times.
Yes, you must be in tune to what the horse is telling you, and you MUST. Exude confidence!
If you have even the slightest bit of uncertaintly that you're going to succeed, you're done before you even get started.
I read about join up, and i must have watched Monty's video a dozen times before i attempted a join up.
I also picked a horse that was "low hanging fruit" so to speak, that i already knew i had her ear, as my first join up, just to get the mechanics of it and get an understanding of the process itself.
That was my girlfriend's "pocket pony", who loves me to death, most of the time because i have 5# of cookies in my pocket!
The next one for me was my Makana.
She was a bit standoffish, being the new kid in the paddock, and low mare on the totem pole of the group.
It took about 20 mins of work in the round pen before i actually had her join up with me, but initially she was more going through the motions of pen work, and i had to break that before we could get to the join up.
Initially, she was standoffish, but as we worked, she gradually recognized me as the HMIC (head man in charge/head mare in charge), dropped her head, and began to lick her lips.
When i decided to join up, she hesitated a moment, but did come over and nosed my hand.


----------



## Jwheeler331 (Dec 20, 2011)

I looked it up and used the method and in two days my horse now joins up great.


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

I love join up and if done properly can cut out a lot of bs with a horse. I do it first with a horse before all else. Sometimes you have to apply more pressure to certain animals and this can become dangerous. I like to use the term "boiling over" you are actually pushing to a point that can turn from "flight" to "fight" and you have to be aware you can trigger such responses as a horse charging you OR coming backwards at you both guns blazing IF you push to hard. But if you don't apply enough pressure you won't get join up either. It is a fine line and it takes some finesse in knowing how to do it right. Correct join up though places you in top dog spot in my opinion like no other exercise. I LOVE IT. But getting just the right stance, body language and pressure are imperative to success and having a good round pen is a plus. I have gotten join up in square & rectangular pens but they tend to get hung up to much in the corners.

The process can take some time and certain horses such as mustangs are harder to get at. An aggressive horse can be dangerous to do join up with so only someone with experience should attempt that...cause you can trigger "fight" pretty easy in a horse with aggressive tendencies. Once you have join up though the horse knows exactly what its role with you is. It also is the closest exercise a human can do to what happens when a new horse is placed in a herd...you are treating the horse just as a lead mare would. I have seen some lead mares be downright pitbull like in getting the new horse to join up with her in a role of submissive follower. It mimmicks mother natures way of getting a horse to submit so it is something they easily understand. You just have to go in there with the attitude I am boss...you are going to understand that before we leave this pen...period. 

Once you get them out on the circle and you are turning them and getting them to listen to your body language look for that inside ear to come in on you and the horse to drop its head...look for licking and chewing...these are all signs the horse is giving in to you...keep working it...turning it...apply more pressure then release it ...then apply it. Once the head lowers and the ear is on you and you are seeing the mouth moving soon after the horse is going to want to come in to you...once they do come in to you you don't need a halter or a lead rope anymore that horse is going move with you as fast as you move...it is gonna stop when you do. If it doesn't you send its butt back out and repeat until it becomes your literal shadow...when it does that you can do anything you want with it.


----------



## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

"Join-up" and any of the other methods that involve chasing or causing your horse to trot or canter around you before being allowed to stop and/or follow you work because they negatively reinforce not being chased.

What this means is that the horse learns that if they follow or stay with the trainer they won't have to run or be frightened. Both of these outcomes are valuable to horses and they learn how to achieve them. For not being chased to be reinforcing the horse has to be chased and made a bit or a lot scared. The difference between the two states (runing/afraid and not running/not afraid) is what provides the motivation for the horse to approach and follow the trainer. If there was no chase/fear start to a join-up session there would be no reward for the horse to "choose" to approach or follow the trainer.

Horses in wild herds so rarely engage in these types of interactions that they are statistically invisible in the majority of studies of wild horse social structures and behaviours. The exception is stallions defending mares and they certainly don't invite their rivals in for a renegotiation of any deal.

This and related methods work for exactly the same reason that using a bit or your legs on the side of the horse do- pressure release otherwise known as negative reinforcement. Horses are highly motivated to learn about cues that predict either that something bad is going to happen (getting a fright from the trainer suddenly flapping their arms) or that something good is going to happen (trainer is going to stop scaring and chasing them) so they learn what posture cues the trainer makes before either scaring or stopping scaring and they react in advance, which is why it can look very subtle and almost magical. But ultimately, when you stop harrassing your horse and it comes to you, its simply showing you its learned how to avoid being chased and not being chased is something it values. It certainly has nothing to do with leadership or respect.


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

corymbia said:


> "Join-up" and any of the other methods that involve chasing or causing your horse to trot or canter around you before being allowed to stop and/or follow you work because they negatively reinforce not being chased.
> 
> What this means is that the horse learns that if they follow or stay with the trainer they won't have to run or be frightened. Both of these outcomes are valuable to horses and they learn how to achieve them. For not being chased to be reinforcing the horse has to be chased and made a bit or a lot scared. The difference between the two states (runing/afraid and not running/not afraid) is what provides the motivation for the horse to approach and follow the trainer. If there was no chase/fear start to a join-up session there would be no reward for the horse to "choose" to approach or follow the trainer.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm. This past weekend I put two new horses into my little herd here at the house. The lead mare here is named Star. Star went to work doing her "join-up" with them as soon as they entered the field. She is still moving their feet every chance she gets to reinforce the fact that she is top dog. When they first went in she REALLY went at the business of moving their feet and showing them she was the leader...guess she didn't get the memo that this isn't something horses do. Nor the lead mare Becky before her or Bella before her. As far as the leadership & respect part maybe I should go out there and tell Myleaka & Bunny to stop faking respecting Stars space, following her around submissively, and watching every move Star makes to make sure what they are doing is "ok" by her.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

Well, not sure I'm a fan of joining up anymore. My horse did it, sortta, and the next day was back to his same self so we did it again. He joined up faster, but he never follows me. He turns, looks, takes a few steps and I end up going to him. Out in the pasture is a different story. I can always go up to him, but he always has to play his game of taking a few steps away first. I don't think I will ever be able to walk up to him with a lead rope.

Seems like if you don't do this everyday, the horse won't believe you are the leader. I don't have time for this every day, unfotunately and unlike a real horsey leader, I can't spend the day in the pasture enforcing this.

I was hoping by starting this thread I would find more people in the same boat as me, having a stubborn horse who either doesn't join up or is having problems with it. All it has done is make me feel like such a poor horse woman. I have talked to people in my area here and this is a fairly new method of training and several people either don't do it or don't believe in it. So I was hoping to find people who believe it, tried it and failed like me.

Oh well, my horse let's me come up to him and that's more than I can say for most horses where I live.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I just kinda skimmed over the posts so if I repeat something, I apologize.

This is how I was I taught, not sure who's method it is. I was taught by the last cow horse trainer I worked for.

I would put a colt in a pen and move him around with a plastic bag on the end of a stock whip. When he acted like he wanted to slow down and look at me I would stop pushing on him. If he looked at me I would walk to him backwards and to his shoulder. If he moved off then I would chase him again and repeat. If he smelled me, I would take a couple steps forward towards the middle to see if he would follow. If not I chased him again and repeated. If he followed me to the middle I would halter him sack him out with the flag. If he tried to move away while sacking out with flag and pulling on my lead rope I would give him a quick snatch on the lead to get him soft and put him back into position. This does two things. It gets him soft on the halter in prep. for being ridden in it and it shows him that being next to you(but NOT on you) is the safest place for him to be. He has to know the difference between being next to you paying attention and being pushy and on top of you. I repeat this process on both sides. I have found this method to work well for me. But I haven't tried it on a variety of horses. I have only done it on 2year olds.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Fargosgirl said:


> *Trust Issue:*
> My friend bought a horse that was a fantastic beginner's riding horse, with just one flaw; he was really hard to catch. He was in his late teens, most of his life he had been roped any time someone wanted to use him. He took several lessons before he would follow, and when he followed he always stayed arm's length away. It took weeks before he would let me touch him, then it took weeks more before he would let me touch him if I had a rope or halter in my hands. Clearly he was a victim of abuse, and it took him a very long time to get over it and join up mentally as well as physically. If I were presented a horse with a similar history today I would still use join up(though I'd do a better job of it now).



He sounds like a ranch horse, not abused.

Most ranches that have big cavvy are roped to be caught not walked up to and haltered. They won't allow you to walk up to them unless they have roped first. Also they will not lead close, they have a bigger bubble than your typical backyard horse.


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

jennyandjesse said:


> Well, not sure I'm a fan of joining up anymore. My horse did it, sortta, and the next day was back to his same self so we did it again. He joined up faster, but he never follows me. He turns, looks, takes a few steps and I end up going to him. Out in the pasture is a different story. I can always go up to him, but he always has to play his game of taking a few steps away first. I don't think I will ever be able to walk up to him with a lead rope.
> 
> Seems like if you don't do this everyday, the horse won't believe you are the leader. I don't have time for this every day, unfotunately and unlike a real horsey leader, I can't spend the day in the pasture enforcing this.
> 
> ...


I would have to watch you do it BUT I think if it is done right you don't have to do it every day. And just a suggestion...clear your mind of the negativity of believeing you will never be able to walk up to this horse with a lead rope. You are clearly saying the horse is the boss by thinking, saying, and acting that way. I can look at the situation and just see by that statement your horse doesn't look to you as boss because you look to him as the boss. Time can be a killer of a lot of things but with horses even much more so. Don't start something you don't have all the time in the world to finish. Don't go with the clock ticking down in your head either or feeling rished. Confidence, time, patience & perseverance are the attributes you need to apply to any horse and they can do anything  You *CAN* do this....even if you give up on join up...try something different but you can get this horse in line.

"If I had to select one quality, one personal characteristic that I regard as being most highly correlated with success, whatever the field, I would pick the trait of persistence. Determination. The will to endure to the end, to get knocked down seventy times and get up off the floor saying. "Here comes number seventy-one!" *Richard M. Devos*


----------



## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

My trainer had me do this with a big wb/tb i'm working with. i'm wondering if anyone else had had the experience that the horse "joins up" in the roundpen and then acts his same old pushy way at home? when you put my guy in the roundpen hes all business but at home he is always pushing.... For some reason i thought thought it would be the magic pill that would fix him. He may be a little more respectful at home and i do correct even the smallest infraction of pushyness but I'm surprised that hes always looking for room to push......
and by that i mean walk too close, try to get his head in the feed bucket before i back up and allow, that type of thing.....


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

WildAcreFarms said:


> My trainer had me do this with a big wb/tb i'm working with. i'm wondering if anyone else had had the experience that the horse "joins up" in the roundpen and then acts his same old pushy way at home? when you put my guy in the roundpen hes all business but at home he is always pushing.... For some reason i thought thought it would be the magic pill that would fix him. He may be a little more respectful at home and i do correct even the smallest infraction of pushyness but I'm surprised that hes always looking for room to push......
> and by that i mean walk too close, try to get his head in the feed bucket before i back up and allow, that type of thing.....


In my experience they have to still figure out which distance is acceptable.
The stud colts would follow me around but still try to nip. So I would put a halter on them and when they would nip I would reprimand them and get them out of my space but if they left to far I would snatch at the lead rope. Soon they figure out your bubble. However I have to be consistent with the amount of distance.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

herdbound said:


> You are clearly saying the horse is the boss by thinking, saying, and acting that way. I can look at the situation and just see by that statement your horse doesn't look to you as boss because you look to him as the boss. Time can be a killer of a lot of things but with horses even much more so. Don't start something you don't have all the time in the world to finish. Don't go with the clock ticking down in your head either or feeling rished."


hmmm, I don't think I look at my horse like he is the boss. He has issues with being caught that stemmed from before me. I don't know what his past was like, but I know I am his 7th owner and all previous to me were kids. As far as time goes, I spend all the time in the world with my horse, the days that I can. I am not like the luckey ones who have horses in their backyard, mine is boarded. Someday I hope to have a farm of our own. When I go out to see him, I don't have a clock ticking and in no way am I rushing him. There has been some people who talk about the horses out in the pasture and their behavior. What I was refurring to about time was that in a real herd situation, the head horse doesn't go home, they are in the pasture day and night, every day of every week enforcing who is boss all the time.

Again, I was hoping that I would find more people who were having troubles with this. Some horses don't ever join up. My friend who has been into horses her whole life has had horses who would join up in a heart beat while the one she currently has won't for the life of him. She is a schooled trainer and a Pre. St. George gold metal holder. 

Thank you to all those who have shared positive experiences. I was hoping to connect with those who were not having such a positive experience and wondering what those people were trying instead.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

WildAcreFarms said:


> i'm wondering if anyone else had had the experience that the horse "joins up" in the roundpen and then acts his same old pushy way at home? He may be a little more respectful at home and i do correct even the smallest infraction of pushyness but I'm surprised that hes always looking for room to push......
> and by that i mean walk too close, try to get his head in the feed bucket before i back up and allow, that type of thing.....


I can totally relate to this. My horse is great in the pen, but is back to his same tricks in the pasture. I have been told that I need to do the join up in the pasture too. I don't think that person knows how big my pasture is LOL.

Sounds like our horses are always testing the bondaries. Sounds like you are doing the right things by not allowing him to be pushy. Maybe your horse looks to your trainer as the boss? Do you have an area at home that you could try joining up with him? The place I board isn't ideal for any of this. I might have to just wait until I get my own place.


----------



## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

I wanted to jump back into this thread. Remember, join-up is a tool. When you use a tool your not used to using, you don't get the same results a 'professional' does. I can hammer a nail into a board, but I have seen guys do it with two or three swings instead of my fifteen. 

Also, join-up, at best, gives an attitude adjustment which you then have to capatolize on. Then you need to continue to demand and act like he had best give you respect. If not, the affects will not last long. I am not convinced that respect is your problem.

I have personally never seen someone do a join-up in a pasture. I have seen someone get in a truck and chase a horse with the truck until it was too tired to run any more. They had a much easier time catching that horse after that. 

Since your trouble is catching him in the pasture, can I suggest a different approach? This works best if your horse is the only one in the pasture, and can be tricky if there are many. 

I woudl suggest just some great bonding time to let him know that you mean goodies, love, and fun. Go out to the pasture with a book and a chair. I like to bring a bag of goodies with me. Then sit in a nice spot, away from the gate, and read out loud. If he comes up, feed him a goody - it coudl be anything from carrots, to just fresh grass. Just hang out and read to him. Let him get used to your voice. Pet him from your chair anytime he is within reach. I highly suggest you do this for a minimum of one to two hours. At that point, pack up and go away.

Come back again the next day, do it again. Take the stress of being caught out of the equation. You have all the time in the world. If you want a lasting relationship with this horse, take the time to build it. I used to use this method to tame mustangs that were wild caught. You can still ride, but make if fun for your horse. Make him a buddy. 

It doesn't sound to me like your horse needs to learn respect, just that he needs to learn to LIKE you and WANT to be with you. 

Another thing you can do is that when you go out to the pasture, whistle for him. Immedately he won't care, but do it every time. Then make sure that he enjoys what you do with him. Sit and read to him. Maybe catch him and go to a spot where there is some grass and hand graze him and just talk to him the entire time. Help him associate your voice with good things. 

My horses know that before I put them up, they get goodies - sometimes immediately, sometimes left in thier stalls for that night. They come at a gallop when I whistle.


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

The best way to fix the hard to catch horse in my opinion is to switch up your interaction with the animal. If he is always caught and worked he will evade you just to evade work. We just got in an Arabian here that will walk right up to you BUT if you have something in your hands like a halter or bridle forget about it she takes off cause she knows she is going to be asked to work....soooo how I will fix this is by small interactions that sometimes don't result in work and sometimes do. I will walk around carrying the ropes and halter...pet the other horses...try to pet her...if she moves away I won't chase her...then I will just leave. At feeding time its a good opportunity to carry around your stuff and just mess with them a little but walk away. Try haltering the horse...give them some "ada boys" then remove the halter and walk away. Sometimes you can halter it take it out of the pasture on a walk a bout then put it back in. Then sometimes do work with the horse. I know it is a pain and unfortunately it is a contagious pain...a hard to catch horse can make the other horses around it hard to catch too.


----------



## ButterfliEterna (May 2, 2010)

My Appaloosa is very shy and it was nearly impossible to get her to join-up... until I stopped trying one day. Granted, I love the clicker [training] method. It has given me such sound results. My method was just to approach her, and if she stayed still, *click* and coo that she was a good girl. Soon, I could walk right up. *click* and positive reinforcement. Handle her feet, *click*. Put them down on my lead (not rip them away), *click*. And it was all about simplicity. A good scratch 95% of the time. A carrot or apple on occasion. Then I would walk away. Now, she has cemented herself to me. I walk out there and she's the first to call out; the first to come to me. (And it drives my other mare BONKERS. LOL. She gets really jealous of the lesser Appaloosa.)

It is possible, however, to accidentally train a horse to evade you. They auto-assume that you will send them off and flight.... What a pain in the ___. My dad's gelding (Alpha equine herd member) does this for me. Bananas.


----------



## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

jennyandjesse said:


> I can totally relate to this. My horse is great in the pen, but is back to his same tricks in the pasture. I have been told that I need to do the join up in the pasture too. I don't think that person knows how big my pasture is LOL.
> 
> Sounds like our horses are always testing the bondaries. Sounds like you are doing the right things by not allowing him to be pushy. Maybe your horse looks to your trainer as the boss? Do you have an area at home that you could try joining up with him? The place I board isn't ideal for any of this. I might have to just wait until I get my own place.


Yeah I don't think thats the case  My trainer worked with me the first time in the RP standing beside me. the first half of the lesson she did the free longing and i watched, then she watched ME and I worked the horse. all the following lessons she critiques me from a platform above the arena, so I'm doing the work and shes telling me if i make mistakes. 

She says that my horse is just SUPER smart (for a horse) and that since he is proud cut and pushy by nature i have to NEVER give him an inch. NEVER allow him to disrespect me. but it's weird once hes in the RP hes cool, he goes right to work, shows all the signs of being submissive.... then loading him up in the trailer right after he head butted me??!! I poked him in the nose HARD (he butted me hard).


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

I'm glad that he works for you in the round pen. I don't have the answers either, I'm in the same boat as you. One thing is that my horse will let me walk up to him in the pasture, just not with a lead rope and only if I do A, B, and C.


----------



## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

jennyandjesse said:


> I'm glad that he works for you in the round pen. I don't have the answers either, I'm in the same boat as you. One thing is that my horse will let me walk up to him in the pasture, just not with a lead rope and only if I do A, B, and C.


Sometimes it can help to stuff the lead rope in your coat pocket (in cool weather) and hold the halter behind you...  

And then there's my wife's Quarter horse, who has actually RUN to meet her at the gate!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

Yes, I do just that. I hide the lead rope in my shirt (Getting harder with summer coming and I don't wear that bulky jacket any longer) and hide the halter at the gate. It's hard to keep those metals claps from clanging, gives me away everytime! I sometimes think he knows what that bulk hides! I was hoping that my horse would run to meet me too, I should just count my blessings! Sounds like your wife's horse has "joined up" just great!


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

jennyandjesse said:


> Yes, I do just that. I hide the lead rope in my shirt (Getting harder with summer coming and I don't wear that bulky jacket any longer) and hide the halter at the gate. It's hard to keep those metals claps from clanging, gives me away everytime! I sometimes think he knows what that bulk hides! I was hoping that my horse would run to meet me too, I should just count my blessings! Sounds like your wife's horse has "joined up" just great!


Here is a method you can use in a pasture or arena...

walk out and if the horse moves off away from you, look and walk to his eye. Once he stops and looks at you, stop and ignore him, turn your back. Keep your body language soft, not looking at the eye and walk up. If he walks away repeat as before. If he stays, then just walk to the shoulder and rub on him, don't halter him the first couple of times, walk away. Practice this a few times then you can start haltering him. I would halter, then take it off and walk away and see what happens.


----------



## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

jennyandjesse said:


> Yes, I do just that. I hide the lead rope in my shirt (Getting harder with summer coming and I don't wear that bulky jacket any longer) and hide the halter at the gate. It's hard to keep those metals claps from clanging, gives me away everytime! I sometimes think he knows what that bulk hides! I was hoping that my horse would run to meet me too, I should just count my blessings! Sounds like your wife's horse has "joined up" just great!


 
Well, he doesn't do that all that often, but he definitely has done it. I wish I had a video of it.... 

Honestly, they bonded extremely quickly. He's just a good fella....


----------



## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

herdbound said:


> Hmmmm. This past weekend I put two new horses into my little herd here at the house. The lead mare here is named Star. Star went to work doing her "join-up" with them as soon as they entered the field. She is still moving their feet every chance she gets to reinforce the fact that she is top dog. When they first went in she REALLY went at the business of moving their feet and showing them she was the leader...guess she didn't get the memo that this isn't something horses do. Nor the lead mare Becky before her or Bella before her. As far as the leadership & respect part maybe I should go out there and tell Myleaka & Bunny to stop faking respecting Stars space, following her around submissively, and watching every move Star makes to make sure what they are doing is "ok" by her.


The big difference between your horses working out their social relationships and what happens in a round pen is us. Of course horses know how to respond and relate to other horses and correctly respond to each other. This doesn't mean that they then respond to us in a round pen in the same way or that they read and interpret the cues we apply in the round pen because they think we or the cues are originating from another horse.


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

I have found that a horse will react to you in the exact same manner it would another horse IF you are very clear about what you are asking. I think the biggest mistake people make is "confusing" the animal with mixed signals. If you ever watch a successful trainer or any successful horseman you will see that the thing that separates them from the inexperienced is how clear, concise, & fluid their body language is to the horse. That is the key being VERY clear in what you are asking and yes a horse WILL respond to you in the same exact manner they do another horse. The OP is new to this technique and it is something that must be done correctly and fluidly. It comes with practice. I already advised her if she doesn't like it find another way to connect that is more comfortable.


----------



## Ripplewind (Mar 22, 2012)

I guess I did join-up without realizing it with my horse. I was round penning him, and then I turned around so that he would stop, and the next thing I knew, I could feel him breathing on me. I took a few steps forward and I could hear him following me. I stopped, and he would stop next to me and slightly behind. I would walk around in the pen and he would follow and stop and turn whenever I did. He now sees me as his leader because of my apparent join-up sessions with him. 

But I wouldn't expect every horse to do it. My horse won't do it every time, but he does stop and look at me respectfully whenever I ask him to. I think that, as long as your horse shows signs of respect, you are in good shape.


----------



## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

jennyandjesse said:


> Well, not sure I'm a fan of joining up anymore. My horse did it, sortta, and the next day was back to his same self so we did it again. He joined up faster, but he never follows me. He turns, looks, takes a few steps and I end up going to him. Out in the pasture is a different story. I can always go up to him, but he always has to play his game of taking a few steps away first. I don't think I will ever be able to walk up to him with a lead rope.
> 
> Seems like if you don't do this everyday, the horse won't believe you are the leader.* I don't have time for this every day, *unfotunately and unlike a real horsey leader, I can't spend the day in the pasture enforcing this.
> 
> ...


This is like ANY other thing you want to teach your horse...you have to do it until it is so second-nature that you don't even realize you are doing it. You have to do it all the time at first, and as your horse gets better at remembering himself, you will have to repeat it less and less often until all he may need is a reminder once in a while.

Time and repetition are the basic building blocks of everything you do with your horse.


----------



## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

herdbound said:


> I have found that a horse will react to you in the exact same manner it would another horse IF you are very clear about what you are asking. I think the biggest mistake people make is "confusing" the animal with mixed signals. If you ever watch a successful trainer or any successful horseman you will see that the thing that separates them from the inexperienced is how clear, concise, & fluid their body language is to the horse. That is the key being VERY clear in what you are asking and yes a horse WILL respond to you in the same exact manner they do another horse. The OP is new to this technique and it is something that must be done correctly and fluidly. It comes with practice. I already advised her if she doesn't like it find another way to connect that is more comfortable.


You are totally correct in that being clear and consistent is the key. The mark of all good horse (and animal) trainers is that they are consistent with their timing, their cues and their rewards. I am not saying that join-up doesn't "work". It does, but it doesn't work because our horses think we are their leaders, because they respect us or for any of the other human centred explanations we make. It works because they learn that the way to avoid getting chased and made to run hard around a small circle, often in deep sand, is to approach and follow us. They learn that the posture changes we make predict that they can stop running and they learn that if they stay with us they won't get chased again. They very quickly learn the sequence of events in a typical session and they watch out for and then respond to the change in posture, the change in angle of the trainer to the horse and they stop running and come in. This demonstrates that horses value not being afraid, not having to work hard and that they will quickly learn the cues that predict they can achieve these things by performing a behaviour (stopping, turning and following). It tells us little about the social behaviour of horses or that anything about how they regard us, escept that whether being chased by a wolf, a more aggressive herd mate or a human in a round pen, being able to terminate being chased is something the horse values and will learn how to achieve. 

One thing is pretty certain, for most horses, if they weren't forced to remain with us by the walls of the round pen most would take to the hills after being chased away by us- which is the most logical thing to do when faced with a scary thing if you are a horse. They certainly wouldn't keep circling around the scary thing and wasting precious energy trying to work out how to respectfully acknowledge the leadership of the thing that's quite possibly trying to eat them.


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

corymbia said:


> One thing is pretty certain, for most horses, if they weren't forced to remain with us by the walls of the round pen most would take to the hills after being chased away by us- which is the most logical thing to do when faced with a scary thing if you are a horse. They certainly wouldn't keep circling around the scary thing and wasting precious energy trying to work out how to respectfully acknowledge the leadership of the thing that's quite possibly trying to eat them.


Well I disagree because I have gotten join up in large feilds as well. Feilds large enough that a horse can get well away from me. Horses respond to the "pressure" you are placing on them. I really don't think this is learned behavior I find it more instinctual to horses themselves. They respect (labeling it for human understanding) because they understand whoever moves their feet the most is the leader. And it is inborn in them to follow said leader to be safe. Truth is a lead mare in a very large feild WILL chase a new comer...some times relentlessly and the horse can flee far far far away from her but they don't...the fact that they are pressured from the boss, defines her as the boss and they will follow her around no matter how many times she chases them out of food, or kicks them outta the water trough, or pens her ears and bites them. It is inborn in them to do this. When you get in the pen and apply pressure to the horse it isn't coming into you to just escape the pressure in a way it is attracted to the pressure.


----------



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

herdbound said:


> When you get in the pen and apply pressure to the horse it isn't coming into you to just escape the pressure in a way it is attracted to the pressure.


the fact that when the horse does this, the human removes the pressure, resulting in the horse being more likely to do it again in future proves otherwise.

if it was truly attracted to the pressure and didn't want to escape it, then the removal of that pressure would work as a -punisher, making the preceding behaviour (facing/following) less likely. in that case join up would fail to have any use to us at all.


----------



## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

As an experienced observer of horse behaviour you would have noticed that in both the round pen and amongst your horses, chasing is incompatible with following or approaching. While the horse is being chased it can't and doesn't follow or approach the thing that is chasing it (horse or human). It is only when the chasing stops that the following/approaching is possible. So the horse is attracted to not being chased and it learns how to avoid being chased. In the case of the human, it learns that approaching and following turns off being chased. In the horse herd, it mainly learns to keep out of the way of the horse that chases it. These are opposite responses, both are the product of learning. 

The round pen prevents the horse from simply avoiding the trainer who is the source of the stimulus that chases it which allows it to learn to paradoxically approach the very thing that has just chased it. If we were a lion or an aggressive horse then this would be a very illogical thing for a horse to do and its likely that its genes would not survive to be passed onto the next generation, either because it had been eaten by the lion or badly injured by the aggressive horse. 

Where we keep horses in groups in small areas with limited access to high value feed sources such as grain or hay we disrupt normal social relationships and we do see lower "ranked" horses entering into contests over food which result in higher ranked horses performing the kinds of aggressive chasing you have described. In the wild, even in times of extreme food shortage this is very rarely seen. So in fact it could be argued that a lot of the aggression we see in our domestic horse herds is learned behaviour rather than plain instinct. In my personal experience I have seen wild raised horses learn to fight other horses for food once they have learned the value of what is in the bucket and seen an increase in aggressive behaviours as they learn that behaving aggressively results in getting more food. In this case an example of positive reinforcement. The aggressive behaviours are part of the horse's behavioural repertoire but the use of them to win and maintain access to a limited food source is learned and is largely unique to domestic horses provided with supplementary feed. 

There is also documented evidence in both domestic and wild horse herds of certain members preventing newbies from entering the herd, sometimes for several days. Often its the lower ranked members who do the chasing because they are more vulnerable to having their relationships with existing members disrupted by the newbies. 

In wild horse studies there is little evidence of top ranked mares "leading" their groups as such or being the only ones to initiate flight responses or changes from one activity to another. In general any member of the group may initiate the change and sometimes group members will imitate them and other times they won't. In most wild horse studies dominance rankings are determined by which horses simply "avoid" others and which are avoided, not on the basis of overt aggressive behaviour such as chasing, mainly because these behaviours happen so infrequently that they are hard to capture statistically. Play behaviour amongst young horses and interactions in bachelor herds do involve more overt aggression and these behaviours are of statistical significance in the relevant studies. Who routinely "wins" these contests is often indicative of who is higher in the pecking order, but chasing is only one of a whole suite of behaviours which include biting, kicking, rearing etc.

As part of background for a study on horse behaviour in the round pen I watched hundreds of you tube and clinician vids which use the basic chase/follow method and analysed what happened. At a descriptive level, I found that in every case I watched, without exception, the approaching/following only happened when the intensity of the chase stimuli were reduced and then offset. In many cases the trainer forces the horse to come to a stop by standing in front of them. In many cases the trainer makes the horse do many laps, often at a fast canter and by the time the trainer allows the horse to stop it is sweaty and breathing very hard suggesting it is likely to be tired and out of breath and thus very motivated to stop running. In no case, at least during the early sessions does the horse spontaneously come to the trainer while the trainer is actively chasing them. If the horse was attracted to the chasing stimuli then the opposite would be true. In every case the trainer "rewards" the horse for following by _not _chasing them. This is a standard example of negative reinforcement- chasing is offset when the horse performs following behaviour- following is therefore negatively reinforced and chasing is the reinforcer.


----------



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

on top of what corymbia said, to the argument that join up doesnt really need a round pen to work and can be done in the open (which i've done professionally a lot), you'd be surprised how quickly and easily even a slight hesitation in the horses "run away" response can be shaped into a "run toward" response, with the right timing of +punishers and -reinforcers. so it's still a learned/shaped behaviour, rather than an instinct.


----------



## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

I see it totally differently. I see this as a natural "herd" instinct. They want to cling to others and they will cling most tightly to what they perceive as being the most dominant and capable of leading them. And in doing join up correctly your goal is to make a little circle on the inside of the pen and pressure from there not run chasing them around. You are basicly just moving them out of your space and you will see them start to do signs of submission to you and they will beg to come in...some see this as escaping the pressure...I see it more as they understand you are boss and by instinct they want to "join-up" with you. If it were a case of just learning not to be chased...they would also then learn that when at liberty there would be no need to join up with you BUT my mare even in a wide open and large space will be right at my side...doing exactly what I do. She mimmicks my every move...this is not learned either...this copying what I do is also instinctual.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

jennyandjesse said:


> Does anybody have any stories about how this doesn't work? Did the horse finally respond? How long did it take? What problems were you having? What did you change? Did anybody just give up?
> 
> 
> > While I enjoy all the posts and interaction this thread has caused I think the original intend of the thread that *I* started has been lost. I repeat it here because I wanted to talk with people who have tried the "join up" and it hasn't worked. I know there are a lot of people out there who agree with this concept, it has worked for them and they want others to learn it as well. However, this thread is for those amatures, like me, who have tried it and it hasn't worked. I know there are those of you out there. Perhaps I titled the original post incorrectly. I apologize for the confussion.
> ...


----------



## Adenfire (Dec 2, 2010)

I worked with a miniature mare once who it didn't work with. She's the only one that I've never gotten to join up. She would just run and run and run until she was exhausted. The owner was freaking out terribly which didn't help situations any better. They thought I was running her to death...I was squatting in the center looking at the ground, being as unthreatening as possible (an hour into the session) At one point I thought it was me, doing something wrong, so at one session I just let her in the round pen and left to see what she'd do without human involvement. You think normal horse alone would wander and relax, whatever. No, she ran just as hard as she did with me in the pen! We eventually had to go in and stop her, cuz at least with me in there I could switch her direction and she'd get a little break. This mare is a terrible puller and can be NASTY when in heat, plus having owners who let her walk all over them...I finally threw in the towel because she was fine with me after a few rounds on a lunge line and 10 mins of ground work with a stud chain, which I hardly ever used, it was like it being on was a warning. After that once I got her working she was FINE.


----------



## Radiowaves (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for starting the thread. It's been very interesting so far. I'm a firm believer in Join Up and I hope you can find out what you need to know....


----------



## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

jennyandjesse said:


> jennyandjesse said:
> 
> 
> > Does anybody have any stories about how this doesn't work? Did the horse finally respond? How long did it take? What problems were you having? What did you change? Did anybody just give up?
> ...


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

FaydesMom said:


> What is it exactly that you want to hear from other people who have failed?? ..


Yes. If you do not understand or agree, this thread is not for you. There are people who do not agree nor have had luck with this method of training. I ask you to please restrain from criticizing me or the time I spend with my horse. Thank you. :-|


----------



## FaydesMom (Mar 25, 2012)

jennyandjesse said:


> Yes. If you do not understand or agree, this thread is not for you. There are people who do not agree nor have had luck with this method of training. I ask you to please restrain from criticizing me or the time I spend with my horse. Thank you. :-|


I'm sorry, I worded my post poorly, I was honestly trying to understand what you are asking for so that I may be able to answer your questions.

I'll not comment any further.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I apologize...

Sometimes giving new ideas or a new spin on an old idea will renew someones interest in a concept.

I shall gracefully bow out.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

Ok, let's start over. Not sure if I need to start a new thread or what, but I'll try this one again. To join up or not to join up. This is a relatively new idea, at least it hasn't been around as long as I have been riding. There are a lot of people out there who have had great success and believe this is a great tool. There are others who have not had luck with this or just don't think it's necessary. Me, well I'm on the fence. I have known a lot of people who have had pleasure in their horses without ever having tried the join up. I also know people who have tried and it didn't work so they continued working with their horse without trying again. It's from these people that I would like to hear from.

So, does anybody have any stories about how this doesn't work? Regardless of the reasons _why _it didn't work, I'm curious as to wether or not you kept trying or just gave up. Did the horse finally respond? What problems were you having? What did you change? 

It is not the purpose of this thread to make anybody feel like a failure for not getting their horse to join up. I am looking for stories from people, like me, who tried, it didn't work, yet they continued to have a wonderful partnership with their horse.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

One more thing. I welcome any and all stories, even from those who think this works and is the best thing to do for you and your horse. As long as we make all posts friendly and nonjudgemental. If you are a fan of joining up, please share how this worked, how often you have to keep doing it and the rewards you are getting from it. Do you need a round pen, can you do it in a pasture, are older horses easier or harder to join up?


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

Funny how the join up thing isn't taught around here. Nobody that I have talked to has even heard of it and I have talked to people all over the state. People I know taking lessons aren't being taught this. I wonder if it's just a horse training thing. The video I'm watching just said something interesting. Only 30-40% of horses will follow you around. That's not even half! Makes me feel better knowing that some horses won't join up. So maybe my horse falls in that 60-70% who won't and I really didn't do anything wrong!


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

FaydesMom said:


> The method didn't fail, you failed to put in the effort it takes to get positive results. QUOTE]
> 
> The video also just said that this isn't something that should be done everyday, in fact it's the goal to NOT do it everyday. So again I am confident that my goals were correct. The horse should learn it and then you move on to something else. That doesn't mean he won't need a refresher every now and again, but you shouldn't have to take the time to retrain the same things over and over again. I hope this helps others out there who are trying to train their horse and getting frustrated.


----------



## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

All I care is that the horse lets me get close enough to clip a lead to the halter.


----------



## jessyleigh17 (Apr 8, 2012)

i got one of my mustangs to join up with me, i did it becuase he needed to know i was the boss. he trusted people and me already but he just always thought he was the boss so i made him join up to me. it was hard becuase he was always the leader but after about a month of it he finally joined up and to me it helped with him becuase now i am the one in control of him when i am on him but my other horses some dont join and some do. its not a big deal if they respect you on the ground and off


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I hope to go back and do that. 

I thought it was interesting that not every horse will do "join up" and follow you around, because I thought that was the way it was supposed to work.

I did that with my coming 2 yr old gelding over the winter and he did it really well- following me around the round pen and everything. He was so good at it that I tried to evade him by walking around behind him (he would always turn to face me) and zig-zagging around to see if he would still follow me (and he followed me great). At first if he didn't follow me or face me I would send him out to work again, but man, he catches on quick and pretty soon he was wanting to stick to me like glue again.

Now I really didn't see an overall improvement in his respect in general, only while we were doing the round pen work. Outside the round pen he is still a brat. But I only did join up 2-3 times over the winter and now that the ground has dried out I plan to give him a refresher course. He's smart and will pick it up again perfectly I'm sure. 

What I really love is the soft, relaxed look on his face when he's decided it is easier to stand by me politely than work. :lol: But you know, this was never a really a hard thing to accomplish with him. He never ran to the point of breaking a sweat or anything. It was more like "okay, I'm tired of running around now, can I come stand by you?" And I would be like "yes, but only if you are polite." And if he did something rude (he has a terrible habit of being nippy/chewy) or simply got distracted and was looking elsewhere, I would make him go out and work again. The boy catches on quick.  Luckily he seems to have a small lazy streak as most horses do. 

But unfortunately outside the round pen he turns into a hellion again. :evil:


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

jennyandjesse said:


> It is not the purpose of this thread to make anybody feel like a failure for not getting their horse to join up. I am looking for stories from people, like me, who tried, it didn't work, yet they continued to have a wonderful partnership with their horse.


I went through and read all the posts and started to realize that you didn't actually want to hear about successful join ups. So I guess please forget the part about it working so well with my coming 2 yr old. And maybe it is a failure after all, because even though he will follow me like a puppy in the round pen, it doesn't carry over to the "real world." So in that sense it is a failure if it makes you feel better! 

I really WANT to have success with my young gelding because I want to keep him and never have to give him up. I want to be able to ride him and love him for the next 30 years. So I'm not sure why you want anyone to fail. But anyway! 

Maybe you just want to hear that people can have a great relationship with their horse without join up? Of course! I have had horses for about 13 years and had great relationships with all of them and never ever did join up. Of course you can have a great relationship with your horse without it. 

I am not a big believer in ground work in general, at least not until my youngster came into my life. Before him, I just bought a trained horse and rode it. Never worried about round pens or join up or ground work. The extent of my ground work was leading, tying and grooming. If they did that, that's all I asked of them. But with a young horse I had to learn a whole new set of skills. I had to try to train a young horse for the first time while also training myself. It's been hard to keep his respect. So I built a round pen and tried join up as a way of gaining his respect. But if I didn't have an obnoxious youngster I would never give join up a second thought. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

What is the main problem you are having with your horse? Being caught or coming up to you? Carry treats. My guys are always happy to see me because they know I bring good things. I like what someone said earlier about just going out there and spending time with the horse. No pressure to catch him, just bring some treats and read a book with him. Or groom him but don't worry about catching and haltering him. (I personally think grooming is a great bonding experience for horse and human). Just be his friend and spend time with him. Pack a few treats. He will learn that being with you is a pleasant experience. Someone before you taught him that humans are all work and no play. So he needs to relearn that humans can be pleasant and don't always demand work.


----------



## jennyandjesse (Oct 20, 2011)

Failure is a very strong word and it wasn't me who first used it. No, I am not happy about anybody thinking they have failed and this post was to do quite the opposite. I had a relationship with a horse for 20 years and at the time nobody had even heard of "joining up" As I mentioned earlier, I live in an area where people aren't taught it and have never heard of it. I had only tried it because I read somewhere that it was a great tool. I do not endorse it nor do do I reject it. Just simply curious about stories that worked and those that didn't. I'm glad that some people have had some real positive stories and it has worked for them, but it doesn't work for everybody and that's ok. There is no right or wrong here. I know there are others who have tried and it simply didn't work, they have the 60-70% who won't do it. My horse doesn't run away from me, in fact he comes when I whistle, but he is by no means "joined up".


----------

