# Horse playing up on trail suddenly. Help?



## HeatherParkinson (Dec 15, 2012)

I'm new to this forum but I am hoping someone out there can help me. I have a 9 year old gelding whom I have had for about three years. When I first got him he would shy at everything out on the trail. His shies tended to be dead stops rather than sideways but if pushed on he would then do half rears. We did lots of work on this, particularly groundwork ( circling, backwards, forwards, yielding to pressure etc) and he had become really good when out but has always still thrown in a little half rear if he was getting impatient and wanted to get going. ( if i catch him before he goes up I can bring his head to toe and he settles a bit but if not small circles until he stops trying to rear normally work.)More recently ( last six months) I have started riding with other people ( always used to be just me) and we have also got a pony in the paddock with him. still do occasional rides out alone but mostly with others. Have taken him out twice in the last week alone and he has been tense, nervous, refusing to go forward, wanting to turn for home, scared of everything etc. today he wasthe same but eventually did a massive shy, reared and then spun the other way. I came off and he bolted for home. Fortunately someone stopped him and I then did some groundwork on the side of the road until he was a bit more settled, hopped back on and he was better but not good. Each time I have pushed him forward, been gentle but firm, and have tried to do the same as always but he doesn't seem to be relaxing at all. Interestingly, as soon as he is heading home he is more relaxed and responsive. Can anyone suggest anything other than just keeping at it and going back to some basic groundwork?


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Horse is spoiled.

And bop him between the ears with flat of hand when he gets light and first starts up. 

He isn't so much nervous about going out as he is trying to figure out where he can make his move.

Might also look at what you are feeding him too.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

Number one, never, ever hit a horse on the head. That only makes a bad one worse an head shy even more.

He is barn sour and buddy sour. Keep him by himself, as far from other horses as possible. Only Human contact with him. He needs to get completely dependent on humans for everything, especially companionship.

Then when he has his little fits, get him under control then go away from the barn and/or buddy just as fast as he will go. Keep going until he wants to slow down, then push him a bit faster for just a minute or two. Then stop him and see if he will walk calmly, still going away from the barn. Stop and relax, then try walking calming back to the barn. If he doesn't go calmly and relaxed, turn around and repeat. Won't take him long to figure out this is more work than it's worth. 

The trick is to never, ever let him get away with it. Work, work, and more work.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If he acts up and this results in him getting to go home, he is being rewarded for bad behavior. If you then feed him delicious food as soon as you get back to the barn, it gets even worse. 

About whacking horses on the head: 
1. I never would do it from the ground as it could cause head shyness.
2. If I am on a horse and his front feet are in the air, I am going to whack him on the head with a crop. I don't know if this is good or bad, but when I have had the problem of rearing in the past, it stopped it. Rearing is extremely dangerous behavior and something has to give.


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## HeatherParkinson (Dec 15, 2012)

Thanks for the help so far. I have moved him into a paddock by himself in the hopes that will start to help. Not sure about bopping him on the head - could that just turn half rears into full rears? I do always push him past whatever he is shying at but as you say, I'm convinced he's trying it on rather than genuinely scared. Just another query ( and I appreciate all the help so far) He tends to get more worked up the faster we go (and still throws in the dead stops!) so should I just keep pushing him faster even if he gets more tense until he finally settles or am I better to try and get him to walk calmly away from home/paddock mate? Also, one last question, should I stop riding out with other horses until it's under control again or am I better to ride out with others but try moving him away from them when riding? Thanks so much for the help


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## Pattilou (Jul 8, 2010)

I agree with Bob, he is buddy sour.... some other things you can do besides circles, is turn around the haunches, forehand, half -passes, take a step backward, take a step forward. Turn around bushes , trees, step over logs. 

You need to put him to work when he acts up. Like Bob said he will eventually figure it better to walk quietly. Remember take your time, reward baby steps and don't expect perfection right away. 

And as usual with our horses the lessons inevitably have to be repeated often.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

There's directions online from Ryan Gingrich, which sounded good, the idea was to operate on green, yellow, & red light cooperativeness from the horse. It's green when he's leaving barn willingly, then at yellow, put him through moves/work him, & don't let it get to the red light. When he's willing to take even one step further, amen, & if it goes to yellow then, work him again. I suggest googling for that instruction. (then share it here, so my own memory can be refreshed - lol!)

Wherever he has to work will remove the attraction; if he has to work back at the barn, he won't want to return to it nearly so much.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

This horse is just flat disrespecting you and you need to not stand for it.

I would first get on him at home or at the barn and just work him. Hard and without stopping. Tight circles figure eights, lope circles, lots of changes of direction, until you think he's tired. Then trot/lope to the spot where your property ends or where the trail begins and stop and give him a loose rein, pat him, relax. Practically dare him to stop.

If he stops , figure eight him while you're on him. Disengage his hindquarters. Do the same thing you did at the barn, then give him another loose rein pointing forward and if he steps forward, pat him and relax again. If he rears, smack him on the back of the head and get into tight circles immediately and MOVE HIS FEET. If he gets farther than six inches off the ground whack him on the head with a crop and then jump off and chase him around. Sideways. Backwards. Sideways again. Chase his hip like you're trying to kill him. Then, after you feel he has sufficiently worked, point him in the forward direction, hand walk a few steps and get back on. Same thing, back to a loose rein and lots of pats.

See where I'm going with this? You can't be afraid to go to a bad place with this horse. Rearing quickly escalates, especially if he is rearing then bolting. I'm not above taking a rearer and making their life flash before their eyes. They'll survive the punishment, the rider probably won't be so lucky if they get flipped over backwards while on the horse.

When you get back to the barn, work a well. Make him think going back to the barn means he has to work, and always keep the trails relaxed and on a loose rein.

I would suggest also looking up Clinton Anderson's methods. He has shows on RFD-TV and at Downunder Horsemanship TV and explains respect issues very well.

The bottom line in any behavior issue is the right thing must be easy and the wrong thing hard. Horses don't know what is right and wrong unless we teach them. He doesn't know rearing and bolting or stopping are bad behavior. You need to instill it in him that it is nowhere near acceptable.

EDIT: I could also testify this method works. When I first got Selena she quite nearly flipped over backwards on me twice while out on the trail. Bucked, slammed me into trees, spun around, just insane. I was going to give up but finally we just went and I quit worrying about my own safety for a minute and just whacked some sense into her. It was a little brutal for the both of us but once she realized I wouldn't take crap from her and trails were a calm place, she LOVED them. Now she can't wait to go out, drags around my baby horses, has gone swimming, etc and if you had told me that we would be doing this at the beginning of last summer I would have laughed and thought you'd gone mad.


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## HeatherParkinson (Dec 15, 2012)

*Thanks*

Thanks for all the answers. Now to just sort through and see what works for us but I will definitely be making him work at home and keeping him working/moving when he plays up. up to now I have tended to just let him stand and look and then push him forward but I can see the sense in making him work when he does the dead stops - hopefully, like you all say, he'll get so sick of it that he will find it easier to just walk nicely. Did look up Ryan Gingerich but his website appears to be shut down -will do some more research into him and Clinton Anderson. Some great ideas on other ways to make him work as I have to admit that I have just gotten stuck in the rut of circling when he carries on and not much else. Thanks again, it's great to have some people to get feedback from. Will post again in a couple of weeks to update.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Want to add that you must be 100% sure whether he's scared to go down trail or whether he's NOT scared, but is calmly saying, "Make me!": you treat a scared horse differently from a calm & calculating one.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Northern said:


> Want to add that you must be 100% sure whether he's scared to go down trail or whether he's NOT scared, but is calmly saying, "Make me!": you treat a scared horse differently from a calm & calculating one.



Eh...maybe a little different, but not much. What you want is a horse that obeys you without thought as to what he wants OR what might scare him. There is a complete thread that is pinned on the first page of the training forum about it. I think Cherie wrote it. It's worth a read.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There is a big difference between a horse that is afraid and one that is reluctant. At least with my mare Mia, if she is genuinely afraid, A) she will NOT be pushed to go there & a crop won't make her, and B) trying to do that would make it the Scariest Place on Earth.

OTOH, if she is just not happy about going there, a smack on the butt works wonders.

If it is scary and you lead her past it, or another horse demos going past it, she will soon add it to her list of things she doesn't need to be afraid of. She will also accept that you care about her welfare and can be trusted to take care of her.

Not all horses are like that. Some are.


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## HeatherParkinson (Dec 15, 2012)

*Scared?*

Hi. The reason I think he's trying it on rather than scared is that he used to carry on like this when I first got him, then after lots of work he settled down and has done these same trails lots of times since without shying at anything. Now he's playing up at random things like bushes, horse poo on ground, posts, footpaths etc. Plus, this behavior has occurred in conjunction with not wanting to leave other horses. Also, this is maybe just me, but I can tell as soon as I go to catch him whether he's in a 'mood' or not and that seems to correlate to how he behaves when out. Is a good point though and worth some thought. Thanks


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

The working thing will help even if he is genuinely scared. He'll be thinking about you and keeping busy and won't have time to be scared of anything because you are making him do things.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

I agree with those that talk about a different approach for handling scared v. barn/buddy sour. When riding, look at the eyes...in my experience, a horse that is very big/wide eyed is indeed a scared/low confidence horse. These horses, which tend to be 'low pecking order' horses look for a confident rider that they trust. When they trust you, they'll go anywhere, even when they are a bit nervous and unsure. Until then, though, you want to be careful about pushing them _too_ hard. Once a scared horse gets to the 'terrified' stage, they stop thinking, instinct takes over, and you'll have a completely different ride than you want....

A barn/buddy sour horse, on the other hand, needs to be firmly pushed along and not given in to. If you do this, they usually settle down after a few minutes.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

I can not over emphasize the importance of never hitting one on the head. I've seen many marginal horses go completely off the deep end from head whacking. I too, many years ago, before I knew better, cured a few of rearing by head whacking, but I also made some worse and never knew why. 

A horse can nor rear if it's hind quarters are disengaged. If your moving the hind quarters when they feel up tight and want to rear, they can not get the front feet off of the ground. Work smarter, not harder. Out think the horse and anticipate it's next unwanted behavior. They telegraph every thing they do, it's the trainers job, to identify the message, and act on the message, before the horse turns the message into action. With many horses the ears tell it all. If you can control the ears, you will win 95% of the time. AND the ears are controlled from the whithers back, not by physical contact with them.

Nothing wrong with a crop to the butt. That makes the hind quarters move. Here too, if your going to whack the butt, do both sides an even number of times, otherwise the horse will outsmart you, and anticipate the butt whack. 

You get much farther along making the right response, easy and the wrong one, hard(work)


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

quote" horses look for a confident rider that they trust. When they trust you, they'll go anywhere" 

Horses do not trust, they are incapable of this emotion. To thing they do will drastically hinder their training.

Here is an article I found many, many, years ago. Don't know where it came from or who wrote it, but it sums up the trust issue.

Quote:
"I will mention only in very brief way the issue of trust. NO, animals do not trust us, though they may appear like it to a greenhorn. It is primarily about predictability, in other words if you become predictable to the horse it will feel more secure (content) with you, because it knows who you are and what you will do, or better said, what you will not do. 
That is why I’ve said, that a genuine horseman must be, and I emphasize, must be an honest human, not a being of pretences and stealth, because when not honest and direct the person becomes unpredictable to the horse that will feel insecure (discontent or irritated) on account of it. 
The same goes for human emotions, though horses in time learn to see these in us, but cannot relate to most of them, hence again the more emotional person is, the less predictable he/she becomes to the horse. 
Most emotions of people around horses do not produce motion of their own bodies, while some do, like anger and fear (these in reality are not only emotions, but that is another issue), in which case the person becomes extremely unpredictable which often frightens or irritates the horses. 
Sometimes, when encountering a horse that dealt with people that act on anger and hurt it, I would go and generate anger in myself and explode it right into the face of the horse, frightening it to death, but I do no harm to it during this explosion of anger. In several cases it produced great results, because the horse faced my anger (the worst that could happen in the perception of that particular horse) and no harm came to it. 
Life example: I came to shoe a horse that was extremely frightened just standing in the hallway, shaking and when I picked up the leg it gave it in a quick and frightened fashion (I do not want the horse to do anything for me just because it is scared of me; such horse is unpredictable and dangerous). 
Here is the woman owner, constantly calming the horse, telling me while petting it, that the horse is frightened and it was beaten by a bad man, (talking like she watch black beauty and she was the savior). 
The horse was horrified to a point of hysteria, snorting and breathing heavy and everyone around, including the owner, was afraid that the horse would explode at any time, which it on occasions did (imagine they wanted me to go under it). 
She had the horse for six months like this with no change. I’ve told her to get rid of the horse, telling her she will get injured since she obviously did not know what was what. She thought that love, kindness and patience will solve this and in time the horse will trust her. She eventually ended up getting rid of the horse after she ended up in the hospital with broken ribs, which she got from the horse when handling it. 
In any case, there is this horse insecure in his state surrounded by fear, not being aware that the people are actually afraid of it. They wanted to tranquilize the horse, in which case I would not shoe it, I am no fool. I hate to say what I do in a particular situation, because of the fear that some fool will read this and goes home and does the same thing, causing more harm then good, but in this case I will say it for the sake of understanding. 
What did I do? Exactly the opposite of what the women were doing. First of all I was not afraid, second it was very easy to generate anger just from the women around me (extremely irritating), because they were a part of the misfortune that the horse suffered, and once the anger was generated (one second) I turned the energy of it toward the horse, scared him ****less by screaming at the horse while backing the animal all the way through the barn. 
I did not have to shank him/it much, there was no need to hit the animal because it became so frightened that it ran backwards in such speed that I had to run to keep up with it, finally hitting the back door with its butt, at which point the horse resembled a frightened little child trying to hide in the ground, as the animal was literally trying to sit before me. 
In a split of a second, I dropped the anger, said few calm words, touched the horse's head, turned my back toward the animal (I became vulnerable giving the horse fair chance to retaliate and the horse acknowledged that/was aware of it) and walk where I was going to shoe, while the horse walked so tight behind me that I could feel his head on my back as it followed me (simple way of letting me know that it will not retaliate and I acknowledged that/was aware of it). 
Sometimes you need anger to generate internal energy, another time it is the worse thing to have, hence one must see in an instance what is going on, and not just in the horse’s head as some fools may state, but mainly in himself and in everything around (the keyword of this sentence “in an instance", hence perception and speed of response). 
The horse stood fine, I did not allow any talking or touching by the owner or bystanders and horse stood like a baby, head down, almost sleeping during this process. Why? Because there was finally some one there that the horse felt safe (acknowledgment, predictability) with and since the animal saw my anger and was not harm by it (most beat horses out of fear and anger) I have become predictable (I was not angry or afraid during the shoeing process), as against the owners were not predictable because of their fear, which actually terrified the horse. 
The horse did not trust me, it just saw what I was and was comfortable with it, while to most people I looked like an insane person, but it was OK, especially since I did not harm the horse. 
Hence no trust in the animal world, but acceptable predictability is the correct term, which gives the horse security and contentment. We speak of trust, because we deceive, while horses do not, hence they do not trust. (When some animal in nature appears to lure its prey, it is not a deception; it is the animal's inborn predatory instincts, which differ in relevance to the nature of particular species.) 
Again an example of how people mix the human intellect and emotions with the nature of animals, all just because most cannot love that which does not love them back, hence in their heads they love horses and the horses love them back. (Most women want babies or animals so they are loved by them, not because they want to love.) This is a four year old girl’s mentality for God sake, and now imagine that silly people like this hold extremely influential social positions that effect or even decide how you are going to live. That is frightening, especially with all the technology and power that is available to them.
Horsemen must be brave, perceptive, honest and fast, which any one can see when watching them around horses, hence horsemen are not self-declared but they are simply that who they are and horses adjust to all these attributes very easy, because men like this are very predictable to them, there are no tricks and stealth when genuine horsemen deal with horses, and 99% of the time it is very, very calm and content. 
If you hear a person say that you need to outsmart the horse, or that you need to get inside its head, you are talking to a genuine idiot that approaches the animals with his intellect. 
I like aggressive horses; they test my heart and keep me sharp. I have some bite marks from my days, but I never got two from the same horse (not having boobs is quite beneficial in the world of horses, and great advantage in horse care and very much in riding). 

Hence in conclusion find your own way (you are unique) to deal with animals, and a brave heart can be found in women, as much as, in men, but is rare in this day and age in both genders, as much as honesty and honor are, since both spring from courage.
If and when you are afraid, you must back off and not fight, in which case most horses will not injure you, but will lack respect. You can still work with most of them, and get done what you need to, but it becomes a boring life in time (same old same old), because it will greatly impede the growing process as a horseman. 
The word respect is not in reality the correct word, but I use it, because there is simply no words for it in the animal world, but is very close. One could say that all animals hold in high esteem the brave, and if the brave will not harm them they want to be near them all the time. 
On occasion the braver ones will provoke the brave just to test their heart, which you can see in the paddocks alone. It is not about dominance, because only in the human world we have it over each other, only human rule over other life, nothing in nature does that, though to humans it may appear like that. 
No living creature is interested in controlling and possessing other life outside the reproductive instincts within the same species. There are no Alpha mares as invented here in the sates by some one who did a lot of thinking while understanding nothing and seeing nothing. 
In short, the Earth and its purpose is all about the hearts, all about courage, which cannot be seen in our society because we have laws that protect the cowards from harm. The more laws we have the more cowards we will breed, hence the earth is slowly becoming barren, not producing courage in men and women, thus the wars and violence is of the essence to grow brave hearts from fear. 
So when I say that the genuine horsemanship is found in the respect for one another, it simply means in one acknowledging the other’s courage and existence (the others reality), thus using the word mutual respect. Hence for a brave man or woman the being and living with a horse that has courage is comparable to a dance, it is like music that takes the man and the animal into some new reality for which we do not have words. It is awesome, but one has to live it to know it and imagination will create only unrealistic dreams. 
So when I approach a brave horse, I feel no fear, because I am overwhelmed with my admiration of such heart, and in many cases an instant liking becomes a reality. It is so beautiful that there is simply no room for fear. (I got bit and kicked and admired the horse for it, though I still beat a **** out if him/stallions mostly, if necessary). 
Horses like and dislike, they do not love or hate, but they do resent, the latter caused mostly by prolonged annoyance and irritation caused by either human or an animal. This is caused mostly by the lack of acknowledgment of the horse and its reality by the handler (person in question). In simple words the horse lovers completely ignore the reality of the horse that they claim to love, and react and relate to it according to what they THINK, what they have READ or BELIEVE, hence the animal is in reality ignored (not respected, not acknowledged), which is extremely annoying and abusive, and in time some will get miserable (discontent), while many will grow numb (dead) as the so called bombproof horses that gave up on interaction with other life since they were not responded to in the way they can relate to. 
A very important factor in horsemanship is the matter of acknowledgment of the reality of the animal, and if one is unable to do that, that too is perceived as disrespect and abuse by the horsemen towards the animals. The matter of acknowledgment is very crucial in relating to horses, but it is another story and I have to end this some place.
Be disciplined, steady and consistent, become predictable, be brave and acknowledge the individual horse’s reality by responding to it in fashion that is familiar to it within the acceptable time frame (usually only a split of a second) and things will go much easier for you when dealing with horses or any other animals."


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

My horse trusts that I will whack her on the butt if she refuses to go.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Wether a horse "trusts" you or finds you "predictable" comes down to the same thing when it's all boiled down.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

The idea of the Alpha horse is an invention arising in the USA? How many here have witnessed the phenomenon of Alpha horse & hierarchy in their own herds (unless this topic should be on its own thread)?

The author is Lee Stanek, his sites are horsemanpro.com & stablemade.com.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I sometimes enjoy reading Lee Stanek, but I take what he writes with a 50 lb sack of salt. Maybe more. Horses are definitely capable of trust. It has nothing to do with like, and not much to do with predictable. They can trust someone they don't like, and like someone they don't trust. If you are predictably nervous, they won't trust you. Trust means the horse believes you know what is or is not a threat and how to handle it. It means when something goes wrong, or might be going wrong, they want you to make the bad thing go away. IMHO.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Northern said:


> The idea of the Alpha horse is an invention arising in the USA? How many here have witnessed the phenomenon of Alpha horse & hierarchy in their own herds (unless this topic should be on its own thread)?
> 
> The author is Lee Stanek, his sites are horsemanpro.com & stablemade.com.


I've read some of Stanek's stuff. He's an idiot. His knowledge and doctrine is for European style show horses ridden in the English discipline and nothing else. He has a particular hate for Quarter Horses and just about anything else bred in the US.

Ah..I guess that was probably a bit harsh, but his articles are absolutely full of "I know it all and everybody else is wrong!" stuff. Very little supported by any source but himself. There are plenty of better sources to get good information from.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I bet he wouldn't hate my quarter horse once she tried to snuggle him. :rofl:


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

SorrelHorse said:


> I bet he wouldn't hate my quarter horse once she tried to snuggle him. :rofl:


You obviously haven't read his writings. He calls QHs the "American Mongrel Horse" and completely berates the AQHA. He considers himself *THE* authority on professional horsemanship.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Yep I am not impressed with him, but my princess chooses to believe she can change people's minds. xD


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