# Horse pulls on reins, makes it hard to post



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

How does she do on a loose rein, like if you give her enough rein that she can't pull against you?


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## PaintGirl7 (May 27, 2012)

She puts her head super insanely low. Like it's around the area her forearms would be.
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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Drop the reins. Sounds like you're balancing on her mouth. Ride her on a looser rein and use your seat and legs to push her forward into the bridle more. Don't worry about where her nose is, it will fall into place when her body is moving correctly. Focus on her butt and not her nose.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

PaintGirl7 said:


> ...So, I've been riding English and lately I've realized that Squaw's collection sucks. Hunter horses are supposed to keep their noses tucked in...


Hmm...










From George Morris's "The American Jumping Style". Available for $12 used on Amazon. Or you might try "Hunter Seat Equitation", which is still in print.

A horse may lower its head for a variety of reasons, both good and bad. It should not affect your posting. If the horse gets way forward in its balance, that is a different problem. If the horse is stretching down low in order to pull hard against the bit, that may be yet another problem.

Some pictures would help. I'm not a jumper, but "nose" and "collection" normally should not be used in the same paragraph.


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## tlkng1 (Dec 14, 2011)

Lengthening the rein and allowing her to stretch out may help but at the same time what you need is impulsion. As Muppet indicated a horse can't move up into the bit if they don't have the impulsion from behind; they will hang on the bit.

Now, on the other hand, if she is pulling just to pull, which some horses will do, you need to set your hands and let her pull against herself. Eventually she will get tired of hitting herself in the mouth. If necessary use a bucking strap on the front of your saddle, or the neck loop of a martingale on her neck, to enable you to set your hands.


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## makin tracks (Jan 25, 2009)

You say retraining in your post. I wonder if she has been taught to go with head low previously?

Secondly, collection comes from the back end. If she doesn't have enough strength or balance to propell herself from the back you will need to look at exercises to help her with that and make sure you are using enough leg and seat to help her accomplish it.

If however, she is leaning on you and resisting, a good way to make her pick herself up is to ride her on a circle and whenever she is dropping away from you, you throw away the contact with the inside rein. After a couple of strides, pick up the contact again, repeat when she leans on you again. This encourages the horse to balance and carry itself.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

^^ Agree. They cannot lean if you give them nothing to lean on. Drop her like a bag of hot potatoes when she leans.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Is she stretching her neck really long and low? Sort of like how you see the Western Pleasure horses doing? What she trained to do that?
If this is a new thing that's only occurring recently not related to previous training my first thought would be to check out her tack. When you changed riding styles did you change bits and saddles? Does the new tack fit correctly? 
Have you checked the horse's back for pain or muscle issues? I would have a chiro check her out if this is a new issue. Dropping their nose like that helps stretch out their back muscles.
What bit are you using? is it single jointed? I hope you switched into a bit without leverage if you switched from western to english. 
If the bit has 1 single joint int he center of it what often happens it the joint hits the roof of the horse's mouth so they either stick their head all the way up in the air, pushing the bit hard into their bars and tongue, but relieving the pressure on the roof of their mouth - or they drop their head completely which tilts the bit and again puts all the pressure on their bars and tongue rather than the roof. Try using a mullen mouth, ported or french link bit. Those are either solid mouth pieces that won't hit the pallet or double jointed so you still have the sides working independently but not hitting the horse's pallet. You'll have to experiment a little to find what your horse is most comfortable in.

So I guess I can't be of anymore help without knowing what tack he's being ridden in. When you lunge him at the trot with no tack does he do the same thing?
Until you rule out equipment/pain issue I wouldn't call this a training issue yet.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

REtraining? was she previously ridden Western Pleasure? and had years of work where the rider kind of snaps the rein up in order to "set her head"? the horse MUST keep their head down or they get snapped in the mouth, they put their head down and get rewarded with looping rein with no contact more than the weight of the reins. Horse becomes worried about contact, since it's a BAD thing, in that kind of training.

So, your horse is probably a lot worried about contact, is braced in her neck and poll and jaw, and when you start to post, she gets even more worried. it can also be that the saddle you ride in is not very comfortable and she tightens up her back, dropping it down, too.
I bet that this tightness and worry about contact is evident at the walk, too, but you just aren't noticing. she might not barge the reins, but she is likely not soft on contact at the walk, either.

I would work at the walk, teaching her to accept contact. That is what your next thread might be on, but I don't have time to write that out now.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Get yourself out of the mentality that it's not your fault. 99% of horse behavioural issues are due to the people riding or handling them. There are no perfect riders, and a problem like this is classic of a rider that is not effective as they could be. A nice, tidy position does not prove that a rider is effective. 
Once you've got that notion out of your head, think about what has been suggested above. Think about the hind legs, not her nose. When you can ride her hind legs, then start looking at the contact and what you can do to improve it. 

It may be worth putting a more experienced rider on her, to prove to you that your horse is capable of doing it.


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## PaintGirl7 (May 27, 2012)

Squaw's training goes just basic training to be a trail horse when she was 2. Then she was a pasture horse for nearly 6 years. I know this because she was our family friend's horse since she was two. I just acquired her last summer.
Incase this sets anything into perspective, although we're pretty bonded, she's had difficulty realizing I'm in charge and she isn't. So if I had to guess, I'd say makin tracks is right. And the tack/pain issue, all her tack fits properly. I've had my equine knowledge team coach and trainer look at my tack and bits. All is well. My trainer actually told me which bit to buy, and what size saddle. So, on this note, any other advice? I've read all your submissions. Thank you so very much!
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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Well there you go! She's green, you need to teach her. She doesn't know that she's a hunter and has to 'tuck her nose in' as you say. Like I said, 99% of the time it's a rider issue not the horse misbehaving for no reason.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

"Collection" isn't about the head. You can't expect a horse to just put their head where you want it and stay balanced all the time. This requires lots of work.

To me her extending her neck isn't really the problem. The real concern is that you aren't staying balance and that your balance is effected by your hands.

I'm riding two green horses at the moment and I'm not even asking for contact. I'm working on getting them to move forward, be straight, good transitions and circles. 

With your horse I wouldn't worry about her head right now. I'd do lots of loose rein work. Once she's moving forward she'll lift her head up anyway to maintain her balance. Same with circling. If she wants to stretch down let her, just push her on. 

If she pulls on the reins the response isn't pulling back. She's already applying the pressure, you increasing it isn't the right response. Instead drive her forward. Collection will come later. Don't worry too much about her head yet.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I suggest that you read the caption to jumper photo posted by bsms, if you haven't already: George Morris is a master, & he says it's just human ego who wants to tuck horse's noses in or down! Don't mess with her nose ever, but bring her along from the rear as all have advised. Since she's so green, I'd gymnasticize & educate her without a bit, also: bosals, knotted halters, etc. save horses' mouths & give you an independent seat, which is needed by every rider. Start riding her in an enclosed space with one rein in a knotted halter, & be a passenger at all three gaits before you start using rein.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I need to amend my "ever" to "till you're advanced to the point that you can constructively help the horse with his head position". After you've achieved relaxation, rhythm, & an independent seat, thus are able to lift the horse's belly/round him up, he'll naturally lower his head & find that that's the most comfortable way to carry you. If you need to use some rein to help a horse find that, it's fine, because when he finds it, he'll want to do it, so he won't need rein anymore.


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## srcosticov (Aug 14, 2013)

It sounds like the issue is the horse being unbalanced, which is probably due to the fact that she is a green horse that has not been ridden in a while.

Re-training her should start on the ground and try to get her collected and balanced without rider interference (because although you think that you may be doing everything correctly, you may not be). You said that the horse has difficulty recognizing that you're the one in charge, which leads me to believe that ground training is the way to go for now.

When a horse is properly balanced, they naturally collect to what is comfortable for them. Certain tucked-in noses or extended low-top line is the "look" of a discipline and not the horse - work on getting the correct form of the horse before anything else.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

The fact that your mare even wants to stretch down is better than carrying herself too high. 

I personally disagree with the people who said to work her on a circle. I would work her on a long rein with contact. THat is, she feels the contact but you're not forcing her to carry herself in a way she is not capable of yet.
I would work at just walk for a while and ask her the contact but again on a LONG rein. Ask her to give you a bigger walk and then slow down again. If she can do this with out stumbling then I she is ready to trot. If not, do the same thing and even try doing a leg yield but keeping the same steady contact on a long Rein. This helped my mare tremendously with her balance. In my opinion, leg yielding also help them lift their shoulder on a circle. I think people underestimate the difficulty riding a circle actually is for a horse. 

As for your position, I know this helped me: Think to yourself 'boobs up, shoulders down'. 

anyway, good luck


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

srcosticov said:


> It sounds like the issue is the horse being unbalanced, which is probably due to the fact that she is a green horse that has not been ridden in a while . . . You said that the horse has difficulty recognizing that you're the one in charge, which leads me to believe that ground training is the way to go for now.


Totally agree with this^

Make her walk/trot with you on the ground. practice halting SQUARELY. Walk her over poles. Turning her on her hind quarters. 

I recommend you watch these videos from ArtToRide. Very educational.


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## xxxxxxxponyhorse1516 (Aug 17, 2013)

What bit are you using? It sounds like your mare has a hard mouth and yanks back on you when you try to pull up. If she keeps being behind the bit, that will result in future back and neck problems and possibly arthritis.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Northern said:


> ...he'll naturally lower his head & find that that's the most comfortable way to carry you.


Is it, though? I'll grant that since I'm not a horse, I'm in no position to give a really authoritive answer, but it does look uncomfortable to me.


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## Ted Love Forever (Aug 17, 2013)

Usually when my horse lowers its head I get it into an active trot or walk to wake them up. If rising trot is troublesome, start with a sitting trot. If you find sitting trot annoying ( I don't like it at all XD) walk, and work on getting your horse to raise its head some more.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

Ted Love Forever said:


> Usually when my horse lowers its head I get it into an active trot or walk to wake them up. If rising trot is troublesome, start with a sitting trot. If you find sitting trot annoying ( I don't like it at all XD) walk, and work on getting your horse to raise its head some more.


I disagree with you on the sitting trot part. If the horse isn't strong/balanced enough to carry a rider at the rising/working trot you can't expect the horse to carry a rider at the sitting trot comfortably.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

You're right on the money there Smguidotti!!

If you are sitting on the back of a horse who is not yet strong or balanced enough to pick up its back of its own accord, you will start to cause damage. Especially if you find stirring trot 'annoying' at which I would assume you do not have a text book perfect, balanced, soft sitting trot. 
Once you start bouncing, you are punishing the horse in the back. I would rather see a horse having its mouth yanked or spur holes in its sides, than have it punished in the back. 
To encourage a longer, looser frame the horse MUST have a soft back!
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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW: "The horse's back was just as extended whenever the rider was sitting, whether they were doing a sitting trot or during the sitting phase of the rising trot. They didn't expect that. However, during the rising phase of the trot, the back was almost, but not quite, up to the same level as the unridden horse..."

The effect of rising and sitting trot on back movements and head-neck position of the horse P. de Cocq, H. Prinsen, N.C.N. Springer, P.R. van Weeren, M. Schreuder, M. Muller, J.L. van Leeuwen Equine Veterinary Journal, (2009) 41 (5) 423-247, as discussed on this web page:

Yup, riding a horse does make his back extend...

Basically, if your weight is in the saddle, the back sags some amount. During a posting trot, when the rider is up, the effect on the back is minimal - the least amount of sag. I'd love to see a study of a rider in two-point. In two-point, the saddle is free to pivot with the movement of the back - I'm wondering if that isn't responsible for some of the lifting (or lessened sagging) seen in the study. 

Of course, that assumes the rider is posting correctly, and not just dropping onto the horse's back like a pile of rocks...


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

The ideal picture isn't really ideal, because it's static. The rule of thumb is that the horse's mouth/bit should not sink below the horse's hip - a horizontal line, therefore, from mouth to hip bone - yet there will be constant small veerings off that on the flat, as well as going behind the vertical momentarily, which are to be allowed, since the horse is simply always trying to keep from falling down under the rider. Then, too, it depends upon the activity: GM saying to give the horse its head utterly whilst jumping is right, because again the horse WILL try to keep himself safe in what he's being put to.


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## PaintGirl7 (May 27, 2012)

I've been working her on a loose rein, and she's been much better behaved without pulling me forward. I think that was the problem (I sheepishly admit) because she moves at a lot more balanced pace. I'd just been holding the reins where my previous trainer told me to. And I was right with the pain issue. My mare isn't in any type of pain at all. My vet came out to give her vacs and he said that she just has an attitude. She isn't in any type of pain.
And for those of you who have mares- I'm starting a new thread Im gonna title "should I use mare magic?" Please advise me on that too. Thanks 
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## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I would love some advice on a similar issue. I've been riding an older horse who used to be a show hunter. I notice (and more at the trot) he will lean on my hands. At first, I had thought it was just that he lacked muscles to keep him balanced (I began riding him to get him in shape) and I didn't fight with him over it too much, just gave him a loose rein and figured he would have to re-learn to balance himself. But it's been over a month now of several times weekly riding and he still leans if I ask for contact. I don't want to frustrate him by giving him conflicting aids or make him hard-mouthed. I'm a beginner rider and when I asked the instructor at that barn, she said he does that to everyone and just to set my hands and not let them move until he gives up (which he does a little, but it takes a lot). What should I do? I might want to show him walk/trot in the spring and it would look a lot better if he wasn't trying to pull me out of the saddle


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## PaintGirl7 (May 27, 2012)

Haha and people thought I was crazy! No problem faiza. Hopefully we can help you out 
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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Smart horse! He pulls, you drop the reins, he can be lazy. Your horse is training you very effectively faiza!!
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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

If you're riding properly, her leaning on your hand should not be an issue because your hand and your seat should be 2 completely separate from each other, therefor not affecting your seat if she leans on your hand. What you're describing sounds like you are either very stiff in your position, or you're using the reins themselves to balance yourself which is also wrong.

It sounds to me like she is trying to avoid contact and work, and i would recommend taking some lessons from a coach just for a few lessons to get you on the right track.


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