# Help stop horse slaughter in america!



## Arksly

Horse Slaughter is already illegal in the US. Also, it seems that the majority of the forum is pro-slaughter.


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## MakaylaSimba

It﻿ used to be, but president obama has withdrawn the ban, so it's now legal again.


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## BravadoThePony

The alternative is that 1000s more horses will be shipped 100s of miles across country lines, in cramped trailers, into Mexico so they can be slaughtered there.
Making slaughter illegal in America just makes for more suffering all around.


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## Golden Horse

MakaylaSimba said:


> ! please help these wonderful animals!
> 
> https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/ban-horse-slaughter/GnNH1pS4#thank-you=p


Please help them to what?

Take a long and horrible ride to Canada, or worse to Mexico.

To stand about in horrible conditions because there are to many horses and no one will buy them.

Help them be turned out into the wild which is nothing like a Disney existence? 

So no I wont help all those things


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Help more horses starve? Take a trip out of the country to have God knows what done to them? Help keep the horse market completely at a stand still? Uh yeah, thanks, not so much.


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## maura

Could you please post a link or give a citation to a news source regarding repeal of the ban? 

I am not able to find one.

Also, I didn't think slaughtering horses for meat was ever made *illegal*, I thought the last two meat packing plants willing to do it wre closed by other means.


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## bsms

I wasn't aware of this:

"*Update November 18, 2011:* Both the House of Representatives and the Senate have now approved the Conference Committee report on H.R. 2112, the bill that, in part, determines agriculture appropriations for FY 2012. President Barack Obama immediately signed the measure, making commercial horse slaughter legal once again in the U.S."

U.S. Equine Slaughter Legal Again | Animal Law Coalition

"Language that ended domestic horse slaughter and processing in the United States was stripped from the Ag Appropriations bill approved by Congress as part of a larger spending package.

Dave Duquette, President of the United Horsemen's group, says there were no riders prohibiting the inspection of horse meat, which he says is a huge victory. Duquette says he had been told by many people that horse slaughter would never return to this country, but he says they are going to have to take another look."

Restoring Domestic Horse Slaughter - Farm Futures

I consider it good news.


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## Skyseternalangel

I think if people would stop breeding their horses, then it'd be a little more manageable and less would be slaughtered :/ but that's my opinion. 

I wish no horses had to be killed.. but sadly we cannot save them all :/


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## maura

Thanks, bsms, for that link, I was completely unaware. 

I view it as good news as well.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Sorry OP, I won't be signing either. 

I hadn't read that news yet. I think it's a good thing. Slaughter is a necessary evil and at least if it's done in country there can be legislation over how the slaughter houses run.


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## Ray MacDonald

Subbing... Cuz ya *know* this is going to get heated and out of control and it will be Hell-arious!


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## Quariesian

I'm sorry, but if you read other threads on this subject, you'll find most here are pro-slaughter, including myself. :/ It is sad that it is necessary, but it ensures less suffering on the horse's part.


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## tinyliny

you mean congress actually passed something? Who knew it was even possible.


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## waresbear

About freakin' time. OP, if you started a petition about regulating how slaughter horses are transported, stipulations on conditions, etc., you would get signatures, a boat load!


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## wyominggrandma

I am glad they have changed it so its legal again. We have needed it for years. 

However, you watch and see, the do gooders will start appealing and getting court orders to fight the legal slaughter. 
No signing a petition for me. Its about time to make it legal again.


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## smrobs

BSMS, that just made my day.  Thank you for posting that link, I hadn't heard anything about it either.

I am on the wagon with the majority that have already posted. If given the choice, I would much rather see horses slaughtered here in the US, where there will be rules and regulations monitoring to ensure that they are slaughtered humanely and treated as well as possible on their way to the slaughterhouse rather than have them trucked for hundreds or thousands of miles to Canada or Mexico (in Mexico, there are virtually no regulations on how they are slaughtered and most of the stomach turning, horrendous videos you see on youboob are from Mexican slaughterhouses). Others are turned loose on public lands and/or left to starve in their own paddocks because the owners cannot afford to feed them and nobody will buy them. 

I'm tired of seeing good, well trained horses go for $100-$200 at auction. Rescues are full and overflowing, most horse owners own as many as they can afford to and simply cannot take in every single charity case that can be seen by the hundreds on Craigslist. There are horses out there that simply don't have a lot in life because they are lame or untrainable or have been so screwed up by previous "trainers" that they are dangerous.

Because the market for crap horses is so overflowed by crappy backyard breeders, the market for average horses (which is exactly what most people need) has gone in the bucket because buyers can't reason spending $1500-$2000 on a horse that is actually broke instead of picking up a yearling from the breeder down the road for $50 and training it themselves. BTW, most yearlings that go to that type of buyer are the same ones being sold on CL or at auction 2 years later as ruined or dangerous. Therefore, the people with broke horses have a hard time selling and have to lower their prices or keep the horse...either way puts them in a bind.

I am not a heartless person, I truly wish there was no need for slaughter. However, I am also a sensible person and can look at the market with objective eyes. Slaughter is a necessary evil and I hope to see the horse market leveling back out in the next couple of years.


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## waresbear

I am pretty sure all of us on this forum wish that we could save them all, but we have to be pragmatic about such things, sorry.


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## Quariesian

Yes, so glad to hear the ban lifted.


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## Speed Racer

Equine slaughter in the US has_ never_ been illegal except in Oregon and California, only the the SALE of horse meat for human consumption. Which of course is the commercial industry side of things. 

I've been following this closely for a very long time, and I'm glad to see it's _finally_ been repealed. I'm not a huge fan of Obama, but I do think he managed to get this right.

The slaughter of US horses wasn't slowed down _one iota_ by closing the plants. The only thing that happened was the horses have been subjected to longer, more torturous journeys to plants in Mexico and Canada.

I think it's high time the plants were reopened on US soil, and I believe the government has finally realized they let a bunch of crazies run the asylum, and are finally rectifying that error. Exactly the same way they finally realized Prohibition was a moronic idea, and repealed it.

Nobody's going to_ make_ anyone sell their horses to slaughter, so I never understood the hysteria about trying to ban it here in the US. :?


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## equiniphile

How about making a petition against inhumane slaughter instead?


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## Cherie

Here is a link to United Horsemen. org. We have been members and have signed every one of their petitions to Congress and the President. It is through the efforts of Sue Wallis and this organization that the government leaders are finally hearing the truth and hearing OUR SIDE of this sad story.

This is the ONLY Lobby group that I have EVER donated a dime to. I have sent this link to everyone I know that wants to see humane and well regulated slaughter returned to the US where it belongs. 

This group is also sponsoring a 'Do Not Slaughter' Registry where everyone of us who has a personal connection to the horses we have raised and ridden and DO NOT want those horses slaughtered and would provide a retirement home or different end to their good lives can have those horses micro chipped and identified if they ever arrive at a US slaughter plant. This registry would insure that any horse with such a chip would not be slaughtered HERE in the US.

Here is the link to this organization. Everyone with a stake in the horse industry should become a member.
United Horsemen
Thank them for any progress made. Slaughtering horses has never been illegal in the US. But, the HSUS and other /animal Rights terrorists got the USDA to stop providing meat inspectors so that horse meat could be sold for human consumption. They would not let the plant owners even pay for the USDA inspectors. So in effect, that inability of the plants to have USDA meat inspectors in them stopped all horse processing. That is the ban that has been lifted. A lot more lobbying needs to be done to actually restore USDA inspectors to any future plants that would process horse meat.


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## NdAppy

Just wanted to point out that online digital petitions are no good for any reason. They do nothing and are useless. It is way to easy to fake "signatures" on the e-petitions (yes it can be done on paper and ink petitions as well, but it is much, much harder).



I _am_ glad that the law banning selling horse meat was repealed. It needed to be.


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## Cherie

The petitions that have been circulated by the United Horsemen DO arrive at the President's desk and have been acknowledged. When the United Horsemen circulated their petition to restore inspectors and ultimately restore processing, they printed out the rules. They were extensive and required at least 5000 confirmed e-signatures with full addresses. This petition was printed out by the United Horsemen and delivered to the White House and was legal and recognized. Read the link I put in the last post.


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## NdAppy

And that is one of the minority. 99.999999% of the e-petitions out there are useless. do you realize just how many people can have multiple email accounts and "sign" that petition, over and over and over with all of those different accounts? They don't verify anything but the email address.

Sorry, but IMO online petitions are a waste of time. Get actual physical signatures if you want to petition something. Put some real work into if you are really passionate about it.


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## crimson88

Slaughter is not a pretty thing, no matter where it's legal at- and I do not support it.

If you ever watch a documentry (Not talking about HSUS, PETA or SHARK ones) just the one's for educational purposes, slaughter is a chaotic, and in humane way to euthenize a horse. 

It really doesn't control the population or effect the horse market. The same amount of horses that were slaughtered in the US yearly, is about the same amount being shipped to Canada and Mexico yearly.

My belief, is that the only good thing about slaughter in the US is the fact that now horses won't have to travel as long through extreme climates.

Just thought I'd share, not trying to change anyones opinion or spark an argument since most of everyone is pro slaughter here.


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## smrobs

Crimson, I really don't think there will be much of an argument among those of us who have already posted. Most of us can respect differing opinions so long as said person isn't trying to jam their opinion down our throats :wink:.


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## Cherie

During the previous recession in the 80s, there was a similar downturn in horse demand that came along after a very unrealistic buildup of the US herd -- just like 5 this last sell-off. At that time, a #1 (a fat saddle horse -- not draft-- that weighed over 1300#) was bring $1000.00+ at the local sale barn. Throughout that period, there were 350,000 head slaughtered every year -- down to 100,000 now. They were not selling the young ones because there was still a demand for project horses and people were feeding them well right up until they were forced to take them to the auction. You saw very few thin ones because the fat ones were worth over $1000.00 and the thin ones were worth $200.00 at best. They had value so people did not starve them -- they fed them or sold them. Not exactly what we are seeing now at the sales where nearly every horse is a rack of bones and some bring no bid at all.


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## Lakotababii

crimson88 said:


> Slaughter is not a pretty thing, no matter where it's legal at- and I do not support it.
> 
> If you ever watch a documentry (Not talking about HSUS, PETA or SHARK ones) just the one's for educational purposes, slaughter is a chaotic, and in humane way to euthenize a horse.
> 
> It really doesn't control the population or effect the horse market. The same amount of horses that were slaughtered in the US yearly, is about the same amount being shipped to Canada and Mexico yearly.
> 
> My belief, is that the only good thing about slaughter in the US is the fact that now horses won't have to travel as long through extreme climates.
> 
> Just thought I'd share, not trying to change anyones opinion or spark an argument since most of everyone is pro slaughter here.


 
I can agree with this, to a point. 

Horse slaughter is pretty inhumane, in my opinion, but then again, slaughter ain't pretty, no matter what the animal.

However, I believe the slaughterhouses being reopened is a good thing! This way we can monitor how slaughter happens. Someone, somewhere, can come up with a quicker and more humane way to slaughter these animals, and that can be put into effect. It is not guaranteed, but here it is definitely possible. In Mexico, however, not likely at all that the slaughterhouses will change.


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## MakaylaSimba

guys i really dont know all the info about this issue, all i know is that a really nice girl on youtube saved her horse from slaughter and asked people to sign the petition, so i did, she also said try to get other people to sign it......so i posted it here


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## demonwolfmoon

MakaylaSimba said:


> guys i really dont know all the info about this issue, all i know is that a really nice girl on youtube saved her horse from slaughter and asked people to sign the petition, so i did, she also said try to get other people to sign it......so i posted it here


Not to criticize but... You really should research things you put your name to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## goneriding

If only we lived in a perfect world....


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## Cherie

If you try to stop something you don't like and it causes an even worse problem, you haven't exactly helped anything have you? That is what we are all trying to say. 

The 'throwing away' of horses is not going to stop because there are always going to be unwanted horses, unsuitable horses (for any useful purpose), unsound horses, etc. Helping them keep their value (even if it is for slaughter purposes) keeps them well cared for and well fed right up until their demise. When they lose their value, like they have now, they suffer a MUCH worse fate of starvation, no Vet or hoof care and are literally being starved to death in thousands of back pastures out of sight right now. 

Please don't sit there and tell me that this 'loss of value' has been helpful to unwanted horses in general. I know better.


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## Beauseant

IMO, the REAL solution to the problem is to introduce legislation to control BREEDING horses rather than legislation to HUMANELY slaughter horses!!!


In other words, I'd like to see HUMANS stop trying to put a nice humane face on an ugly way to control a problem HUMANS created....

The horse "industry" breeders, the backyard breeders....they are ALL the cause of this problem. Introduce legislation to STOP THE BREEDING rather than introduce legislation to clean up the influx of unwanted horses that follows!!!! THAT would be the real HUMANE thing to do.....anything else is CYA...i.e. too many horses in the world so lets find a way to slaughter them nicely by adding rules and regulations to make it sound nicer... but which still amount to the animal's pain and death!



I won't say anymore on this subject. It raises my blood pressure too much...:evil:


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## demonwolfmoon

Beauseant said:


> In other words, I'd like to see HUMANS stop trying to put a nice humane face on an ugly way to control a problem HUMANS created....


But...this is all (domestic) animals. When we provide food and the opportunity to breed, we interrupt normal population ecology...numbers increase...and then there's a problem.

Actually, I see you're from Pennsylvania. When we moved here, we noticed that there is a different culture with respect to the care of domestic cats. No one spays and neuters...they even made it FREE here where I live...and they have plenty of kill shelters, and a constant stream of free kittens online and in the paper. Have you seen the pictures in the kill shelters of the piles of bodies? That would be easily avoidable, if people cared enough to spay and neuter, or if they realized that Pookie does not need at least ....one litter... /FACEPALM.

At least with horses/cows/goats/pigs the deaths can serve some sort of purpose...to what purpose is the deaths from euthanasia at a kill shelter serve?


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## DuffyDuck

I don't have a problem with horse meat, providing the horse's aren't transported for hours on end, starved and cramped. If they're given a clean death, then thats even better.

Out here horse meat is fairly cheap where you can find it, so you have to think about people who can't afford chicken, pork or beef. I agree, don't stop it at all. Unless of course you're going to take in all those old, lame, crippled horses and keep them happy till they die of natural causes?


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## StarfireSparrow

demonwolfmoon said:


> When we moved here, we noticed that there is a different culture with respect to the care of domestic cats. No one spays and neuters...they even made it FREE here where I live...and they have plenty of kill shelters, and a constant stream of free kittens online and in the paper. Have you seen the pictures in the kill shelters of the piles of bodies? That would be easily avoidable, if people cared enough to spay and neuter, or if they realized that Pookie does not need at least ....one litter... /FACEPALM.
> 
> At least with horses/cows/goats/pigs the deaths can serve some sort of purpose...to what purpose is the deaths from euthanasia at a kill shelter serve?


I agree that people should be sterilizing their pets, but I don't personally think you can compare the overpopulation of stray cats and dogs to that of horses. In general, horses are not running feral, in every neighbor hood of the US, breeding all by themselves. The percentage of genuine accidental horses is negligible.

What we need to have in place is a system where people have to apply for a certificate for each breeding and pay money to file the the paper work. It need only be a nominal fee to discourage what I consider idle breeders. Then fine the snot out of anyone who tries to sell a horse without the proper certificate. This, imo, would bring a screeching halt to those breedings where someone goes "I have a mare that has stood unbroken and good for nothing all her life and you have a stallion that is not butt-ugly in the right light, let's breed them."

This would create jobs and bring in money in the way of fees and fines to fund itself. I am also not suggesting that the government have any say in the actual crosses you can breed or anything like that, but if you are serious about breeding your mare, you simply submit a nominal fee and a short worksheet saying that you are going to do so and in what year it will take place to avoid the switching of certificates.

That being said, I think the TB racing industry could keep the slaughter houses in business even with legitimate breedings.


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## kevinshorses

Many posters have mentioned slaughter as a necessary evil. It may be necessary but it is not in any way evil. You may think of your horses as large furry children but they are not. Horses are not self aware and not really any smarter than a cow only more trainable (maybe). We don't need government regulations on breeding we only need an outlet for the horses that are unwanted and unneeded. Even well bred horses that have been well cared for thier whole lives develope injuries that require them to be put down. Many people like myself would prefer to have the animals body used to feed people rather than dumped into a hole to rot. If that's evil then so be it. I sent a horse to slaughter last month that I had for several years. He was a fine horse when he was sound and my kids loved to ride him. Sadly, he was crippled with navicular and no longer had a good quality of life. I couldn't feel good about throwing a thousand pounds of meat into a hole in the ground if there were people that would eat it. The only thing I regret is that I couldn't haul him myself to a more local plant and make sure that he didn't have to endure a long trailer ride with unfamiliar horses that would try to establish a pecking order. 

The process by which horses are killed in packing houses is as humane as an activity can be that ends in the death of the animal involved. The horses may be scared but probably don't know what's happening and then it's over quite quickly. Most horses are dead before thier brain can process the pain of the bullet or bolt entering thier head. Obviously the smaller and slower the plant the more attention that can be given to the animals welfare and comfort.


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## kevinshorses

MysterySparrow said:


> I agree that people should be sterilizing their pets, but I don't personally think you can compare the overpopulation of stray cats and dogs to that of horses. In general, horses are not running feral, in every neighbor hood of the US, breeding all by themselves. The percentage of genuine accidental horses is negligible.
> 
> What we need to have in place is a system where people have to apply for a certificate for each breeding and pay money to file the the paper work. It need only be a nominal fee to discourage what I consider idle breeders. Then fine the snot out of anyone who tries to sell a horse without the proper certificate. This, imo, would bring a screeching halt to those breedings where someone goes "I have a mare that has stood unbroken and good for nothing all her life and you have a stallion that is not butt-ugly in the right light, let's breed them."
> 
> This would create jobs and bring in money in the way of fees and fines to fund itself. I am also not suggesting that the government have any say in the actual crosses you can breed or anything like that, but if you are serious about breeding your mare, you simply submit a nominal fee and a short worksheet saying that you are going to do so and in what year it will take place to avoid the switching of certificates.
> 
> That being said, I think the TB racing industry could keep the slaughter houses in business even with legitimate breedings.


That's all we need is another government bueracracy to funnel away our money and erode our personal freedoms. It is thinking like yours that has this country SCREAMING down the road to socialism. I don't need a government permit to do everything in my life. The U.S. Constitution defines the role that the federal government should play in the lives of the citizens of this country. Everything not defined by that document is the perview of the state and local governments that are much more readily accountable to the people. 

I have no desire to live in a country where I must ask permission to do with my property what I want. I have never had a nanny and I surely don't need one now.


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## StarfireSparrow

kevinshorses said:


> That's all we need is another government bueracracy to funnel away our money and erode our personal freedoms. It is thinking like yours that has this country SCREAMING down the road to socialism. I don't need a government permit to do everything in my life. The U.S. Constitution defines the role that the federal government should play in the lives of the citizens of this country. Everything not defined by that document is the perview of the state and local governments that are much more readily accountable to the people.
> 
> I have no desire to live in a country where I must ask permission to do with my property what I want. I have never had a nanny and I surely don't need one now.


I did not say anything about the government giving or controlling permission to breed. I simply said that having to get a certificate for each breeding would make people think a bit more about the implications of wanting to breed. There is a big difference between slowing down the process in order to get people thinking instead of reacting and eroding personal freedom.


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## Legend

This lifted ban is a good thing, and a bad thing. I don't agree with slaughter at all, its inhumane, and wrong. But it is nice that horses now don't have to be transported half way across the country to arrive at their death. As BeauSeant said, I think that instead of making it legal to kill horses, they need to find a way to stop random, backyard breeding. If it wasn't for the total over population of horses we wouldn't really need too many slaughter houses. Instead of stepping around the problem, they need to step onto the problem, and fix it. They aren't facing the problem.

The lifted ban is a sad thing, but the right thing. At least horses now don't have to travel 1000's of miles to be killed.


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## kevinshorses

Legend said:


> This lifted ban is a good thing, and a bad thing. I don't agree with slaughter at all, its inhumane, and wrong. But it is nice that horses now don't have to be transported half way across the country to arrive at their death. As BeauSeant said, I think that instead of making it legal to kill horses,* they* need to find a way to stop random, backyard breeding. If it wasn't for the total over population of horses we wouldn't really need too many slaughter houses. Instead of stepping around the problem, *they* need to step onto the problem, and fix it. *They *aren't facing the problem.
> 
> The lifted ban is a sad thing, but the right thing. At least horses now don't have to travel 1000's of miles to be killed.


Could you define who "they " are and why "they" have a right to tell me what to do with my property?


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## demonwolfmoon

MysterySparrow said:


> I agree that people should be sterilizing their pets, but I don't personally think you can compare the overpopulation of stray cats and dogs to that of horses. In general, horses are not running feral, in every neighbor hood of the US, breeding all by themselves.


*So what makes the lives of the slaughter horses any more important than those of a dog who is no longer a "cute puppy", whose uncaring owners send it to the kill shelter?*

What makes the lives of the slaughter horses any more important than that of the kittens being euthed? Why should the BYB be taxed for illegitimate breedings of horses but not required to spay the barn cat, and taxed for the same?

I don't see why they would have any greater value...unless you are considering horses as a tool, which it seems that many people here do not.
At least the slaughter horses can be used to feed people, perhaps even cheaply, and provide jobs that are very much needed in this economy.
At least their deaths don't have to be a complete waste, and maybe even some small good can come of it.


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## mselizabeth

Does anyone know of any rules or regulations they have in place for U.S. horse slaughter? I think that would be more productive. 

There are just too many horses to save. But it would be nice to make it a more humane process.


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## StarfireSparrow

demonwolfmoon said:


> *So what makes the lives of the slaughter horses any more important than those of a dog who is no longer a "cute puppy", whose uncaring owners send it to the kill shelter?*
> 
> What makes the lives of the slaughter horses any more important than that of the kittens being euthed? Why should the BYB be taxed for illegitimate breedings of horses but not required to spay the barn cat, and taxed for the same?
> 
> I don't see why they would have any greater value...unless you are considering horses as a tool, which it seems that many people here do not.
> At least the slaughter horses can be used to feed people, perhaps even cheaply, and provide jobs that are very much needed in this economy.
> At least their deaths don't have to be a complete waste, and maybe even some small good can come of it.


I did not say any of this. I simply stated that there are two separate issues at work here. Mostly because there is not a stray population of horses, people are more directly responsible for the over breeding issue. We are equally guilty of the stray cats and dogs, just on a different level.

I do think that people should be fined for not sterilizing their pets. I just did not go into that because this thread is about horse slaughter.

I am pro slaughter, I just also think the need still exists to make people slow down and think about the implications of breeding a horse, or any animal for that matter. I am not opposed to people eating horses, it has been done for centuries and given the opportunity I would even be willing to try it. This does not, however, negate the issue of irresponsible breeding just because we have a legal and reasonable outlet for the useless get.


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## crimson88

I don't know about you guys, but when I look out at my pasture I don't see a bunch of hamburgers and steaks on legs.

IMO, horses deserve better than slaughter. And if other countries outside the US want to eat horses, then just let them eat their own.


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## ridergirl23

crimson88 said:


> I don't know about you guys, but when I look out at my pasture I don't see a bunch of hamburgers and steaks on legs.
> 
> IMO, horses deserve better than slaughter. And if other countries outside the US want to eat horses, then just let them eat their own.


have you looked at other peoples pastures and seen starving horses? crippled, abandoned horses? 

where do you think is 'better then slaughter' because people arent breeding horses to go to slaughter, horses are going to slaughter because A: they are dangerous/unwanted or B:no one can take care of them anymore or any other reason..... they dont just go to slaughter because us canadians are hungry.... although i wouldnt mind a nice american pony right now :twisted:


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## crimson88

ridergirl23 said:


> have you looked at other peoples pastures and seen starving horses? crippled, abandoned horses?
> 
> where do you think is 'better then slaughter' because people arent breeding horses to go to slaughter, horses are going to slaughter because A: they are dangerous/unwanted or B:no one can take care of them anymore or any other reason..... they dont just go to slaughter because us canadians are hungry.... although i wouldnt mind a nice american pony right now :twisted:


Have you not heard of *humane, low cost euthenisa*? Three local rescues here hold "euthenisa clinics" several times a year where vet's donate their time to euthinze anyone's horse.


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## NdAppy

Lucky for the area you're in crimson. That isn't the case in the rest of the country though.


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## ridergirl23

i agree slaughter could be more humane, but lets be honest here, horses are no different from cows, chickens, pigs, or anything else we eat, they are animals, I dont get why people are so against eating them, besides theyre peerrrrttyyyy.


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## crimson88

I usually don't watch HSUS, PETA or SHARK but this was the only video I could find on youtube, and yes it is HSUS so it is biased. 

None the less, NO HORSE deserves this. I mean I don't have a problem with eatting meat or raising livestock for meat (heck we raise butcher chickens, turkeys, pigs and cattle) but in my opinion, I don't view horses as livestock. They have been our "beasts of burden" for centuries, plowed our fields, carried our men through battle, and so we eat them? I don't understand it, but that's just me.
*Warning*Graphic*


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## BellaMFT

crimson88 said:


> Have you not heard of *humane, low cost euthenisa*? Three local rescues here hold "euthenisa clinics" several times a year where vet's donate their time to euthinze anyone's horse.


Crimson88 unfortunately low cost euthanasia does not exist every where. Here in Utah it costs around $300 or more to euthanize a horse. It's not just a matter of putting them down it is also a matter of having someone come out and dispose of the body.


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## ridergirl23

as i said, i agree, maybe it could be more humane, but horses are livestock just like cows, chickens and every other farm animal, why should we not eat them?


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## crimson88

ridergirl23 said:


> as i said, i agree, maybe it could be more humane, but horses are livestock just like cows, chickens and every other farm animal, why should we not eat them?


"Old <insert your horse's name here> gave out on us, let's shoot 'er and eat 'er up".

Horses are more than livestock.

Those old, crippled horses you mentioned earlier, likely became crippled from human use. Instead of giving them what they deserve then, let's just throw them on the meat truck and get rid of them the easy, cheap way.

I find that quite sad


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## crimson88

BellaMFT said:


> Crimson88 unfortunately low cost euthanasia does not exist every where. Here in Utah it costs around $300 or more to euthanize a horse. It's not just a matter of putting them down it is also a matter of having someone come out and dispose of the body.


I do realize that, but in my opinion I think efforts should be made to have low cost, humane euthanisa more readily available throught the US instead of re-introducing slaughter.


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## ridergirl23

I would much rather that than someone who cant afford to keep their horse to let it loose and starve to death... not everyone has to money or resources for enthenisa.


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## ridergirl23

crimson88 said:


> I do realize that, but in my opinion I think efforts should be made to have low cost, humane euthanisa more readily available throught the US instead of re-introducing slaughter.


im sure there are efforts being made, and thats great, but until then, should they keep shipping the horses to mexico and canada just because you dont agree with it?


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## crimson88

ridergirl23 said:


> I would much rather that than someone who cant afford to keep their horse to let it loose and starve to death... not everyone has to money or resources for enthenisa.


 
Surrender the horse to a 501c rescue that can get a discounted rate for euthanisa and properly dispose of the horse.


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## demonwolfmoon

crimson88 said:


> "Old <insert your horse's name here> gave out on us, let's shoot 'er and eat 'er up".
> 
> Horses are more than livestock.
> 
> Those old, crippled horses you mentioned earlier, likely became crippled from human use. Instead of giving them what they deserve then, let's just throw them on the meat truck and get rid of them the easy, cheap way.
> 
> I find that quite sad


Uh, yeah...it is sad. But what do you think happened to them when they got sick or lame as working farm animals, maybe a hundred years ago or less? 
I think that oxen were also used to plow... I bet they were roasted when it was time to "retire". 

You are biased.

I will go ahead and go on the record as saying I do not often eat meat, I rescue animals whose lives are apparently worth less to some of the members of this board, and_ I believe that if you don't have the cojones to kill your food at least once, you probably shouldn't eat it. _
Consider what some of the others have said:

A horse that is old, sick and no longer having a quality of life has the option that (in the US) an old, sick dog or cat does not have. That is 1000 pounds of meat that can feed a family in need. And that means something: it means the end to a life that has become suffering, and it means that someone, maybe your neighbor is not going hungry.

Do I think that slaughter practices should be revised heavily? Yeah, probably. Again, I think that WE AS HUMAN BEINGS owe our animals as much dignity in death as they *deserved *in life.

And let's be honest: people should be more aware of these things before they breed their dog/cat/hamster/horse/squirrel (idc what) and add to the excess population and creating more of a need for these things....


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## ridergirl23

very well sad demon! 
I just personally just do not see why you are so against horse slaughter, yes it can be more humane, but thats no reason to be against the entire thing, to me that would just be motivation to do something about it.


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## crimson88

demonwolfmoon said:


> Uh, yeah...it is sad. *But what do you think happened to them when they got sick or lame as working farm animals, maybe a hundred years ago or less? *
> I think that oxen were also used to plow... I bet they were roasted when it was time to "retire".
> 
> You are biased.
> 
> I will go ahead and go on the record as saying I do not often eat meat, I rescue animals whose lives are apparently worth less to some of the members of this board, and_ I believe that if you don't have the cojones to kill your food at least once, you probably shouldn't eat it. _
> Consider what some of the others have said:
> 
> A horse that is old, sick and no longer having a quality of life has the option that (in the US) an old, sick dog or cat does not have. That is 1000 pounds of meat that can feed a family in need. And that means something: it means the end to a life that has become suffering, and it means that someone, maybe your neighbor is not going hungry.
> 
> Do I think that slaughter practices should be revised heavily? Yeah, probably. Again, I think that WE AS HUMAN BEINGS owe our animals as much dignity in death as they *deserved *in life.
> 
> And let's be honest: people should be more aware of these things before they breed their dog/cat/hamster/horse/squirrel (idc what) and add to the excess population and creating more of a need for these things....


Probably shot them and ate them. Times are different now. Back them we didn't have as great of food resources as we do now. We don't have a need for slaughter now, other than for blood money.


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## bubba13

crimson88 said:


> Surrender the horse to a 501c rescue that can get a discounted rate for euthanisa and properly dispose of the horse.


This is extremely unrealistic. The rescues are all maxed out. They aren't taking any horses--I begged one just to help me place a mule over the summer (just give me some contacts to call!), and they wouldn't even assist, because they're so desperate to get rid of their own. Lots of the "rescues" I see around here can't even afford the horses they have, and the poor things are standing in mud up to their pasterns with the ribs sticking out. To burden them with more horses, given this scenario, is selfish and bad for the animals.

Crimson, look at this thread: http://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/how-do-you-feel-about-horse-104173/
Plenty of good information about why eating a horse is no different than eating a cow there.


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## ridergirl23

yes, we do have need for slaughter now more than ever. you dont realize this because you just go to the closest grocery store and oh look, theres meat and food everywhere.


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## NdAppy

crimson88 said:


> Surrender the horse to a 501c rescue that can get a discounted rate for euthanisa and properly dispose of the horse.


You do realize that rescues can't always help with that either? That their budgets are for caring for those horses that they have... I'm sorry but expecting the rescues to pick up the tab is just asinine. 

I wold rather see horses that are used up and crippled go to slaughter than get substandard or little to no care because their owners either can't afford the care of them or for whatever reason.


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## demonwolfmoon

crimson88 said:


> Surrender the horse to a 501c rescue that can get a discounted rate for euthanisa and properly dispose of the horse.


So...if you can't afford the horse, you surrender it to be put down, and "properly disposed" of. 

What is "properly disposed" of, and why is it better than letting someone eat it? 

Also, I take it that you have never been exceedingly poor. A good 15 years ago, when I was living off of school lunch, I am not so sure I would have refused budget horse meat.

And as Bubba has said...rescues are full. If you choose one and pop over to the website, many many times that's the first thing you'll find posted...rescue is full to capacity, and sorry.


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## bubba13

Someone *else* will fix the problem so *I* don't have to....


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## demonwolfmoon

ridergirl23 said:


> very well sad demon!
> I just personally just do not see why you are so against horse slaughter, yes it can be more humane, but thats no reason to be against the entire thing, to me that would just be motivation to do something about it.


Ty ridergirl. Sometimes, I just don't get people.

I'm sitting here up to my capacity in cats, even though sterilization is FREE in my area, the papers are full of more kittens and the snow is coming. People complain about horse slaughter even though our country is in deep s$%^ right now and there are no/very few jobs to be had, horses are STARVING and rescues are full.
It's not as disjointed as it sounds, I'm just so tired of ranting about things that I can't change and are just being made WORSE by people who only think with their emotions and not the real world impact of their decisions....
UGH.
/rant


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## BellaMFT

crimson-There may be more food resources now then 100 years ago but that does mean that everyone can afford to go to the grocery store. There are more then 46 million Americans living below the poverty level. I personally could not eat horse meat but that doesn't mean that it should not be an option for other people. Slaughter does need to be done humanely and that is where groups like PETA and the humane society could really do some good. They need to be around to monitor the slaughter plants to make sure it is done humanely and sanitary.


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## crimson88

bubba13 said:


> This is extremely unrealistic. The rescues are all maxed out. They aren't taking any horses--I begged one just to help me place a mule over the summer (just give me some contacts to call!), and they wouldn't even assist, because they're so desperate to get rid of their own. Lots of the "rescues" I see around here can't even afford the horses they have, and the poor things are standing in mud up to their pasterns with the ribs sticking out. To burden them with more horses, given this scenario, is selfish and bad for the animals.
> 
> Crimson, look at this thread: http://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/how-do-you-feel-about-horse-104173/
> Plenty of good information about why eating a horse is no different than eating a cow there.


 
Hmmm, I don't know what state you live in, but the rescue's here are maxed out too but always have good resources to help a horse in need. They don't mind taking someone's surrenered horse and putting it too sleep. And if it's a horse that can possibly be adopted they will find a foster home for it, which isn't to hard because the foster-er's do get tax write offs. (I have fostered 6 but declined any tax write offs)

In my area we also have a "hay bank" where farmers donate their excess hay and people in need can get a load for free (but of course only once or twice because they are encouarged to get back onto their feet after that).

Then again, there are the "rescues" here who are not 501c and are pretty much hoarders who don't try to care for their horse's at all, but still scout looking for free horses or "horses in need". Here in OR there is only two of these "rescues" that I know of.


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## demonwolfmoon

BellaMFT said:


> . Slaughter does need to be done humanely and that is where groups like PETA and the humane society could really do some good.


PETA is not to be trusted:

"Animal lovers worldwide now have access to more than a decade's worth of evidence showing that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) kills thousands of defenseless pets at its Virginia headquarters. Since 1998, PETA has opted to "put down" 25,840 adoptable dogs, cats, puppies, and kittens instead of finding them "forever homes."
*PETA's "Animal Record" report for 2010, which the animal rights group itself filed with the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, shows that PETA employees killed 94 percent of the dogs and cats in their care last year. During all of 2010, PETA found adoptive homes for just 44 pets"

*If I was going to surrender any of my baby kitties (which will never happen, I am putting their care in my will), I definitely wouldn't leave them with anyone associated with Peta!!!


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## BellaMFT

demonwolfmoon said:


> PETA is not to be trusted:
> 
> "Animal lovers worldwide now have access to more than a decade's worth of evidence showing that People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) kills thousands of defenseless pets at its Virginia headquarters. Since 1998, PETA has opted to "put down" 25,840 adoptable dogs, cats, puppies, and kittens instead of finding them "forever homes."
> *PETA's "Animal Record" report for 2010, which the animal rights group itself filed with the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, shows that PETA employees killed 94 percent of the dogs and cats in their care last year. During all of 2010, PETA found adoptive homes for just 44 pets"
> 
> *If I was going to surrender any of my baby kitties (which will never happen, I am putting their care in my will), I definitely wouldn't leave them with anyone associated with Peta!!!


I agree complete that PETA is evil in my book but I know people a lot of think that these groups are good. I personally think they spend to much time trying to tell people what to do rather then spending there energy on doing what is right for the animal. I was going to put that but I thought it might be to much of my opinion. lol


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## equiniphile

crimson88 said:


> Hmmm, I don't know what state you live in, but the rescue's here are maxed out too but always have good resources to help a horse in need. They don't mind taking someone's surrenered horse and putting it too sleep. And if it's a horse that can possibly be adopted they will find a foster home for it, which isn't to hard because the foster-er's do get tax write offs. (I have fostered 6 but declined any tax write offs)
> 
> In my area we also have a "hay bank" where farmers donate their excess hay and people in need can get a load for free (but of course only once or twice because they are encouarged to get back onto their feet after that).
> 
> Then again, there are the "rescues" here who are not 501c and are pretty much hoarders who don't try to care for their horse's at all, but still scout looking for free horses or "horses in need". Here in OR there is only two of these "rescues" that I know of.


Again, that's great that you live in an area with such great rescues and resources for horses in need. Most places don't have those luxuries, however. I know many rescues around here that charge you to surrender pets to them, and most won't take a horse from you no matter how much you pay them. They focus only on seizing neglected animals.

There's nothing wrong with dead horses being eaten. The horse is DEAD, they do not know the difference between their carcass laying in a hole and being on a dinner plate. Many people around the world, even in this day and age, are starving. Why not give them another resource for buying food?


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## Gremmy

Problem is, horses are BIG. Even when humanely euthanized with a bullet, disposal is an issue. Burning, from what I've read, is impractical, burial is difficult without a backhoe - done improperly it can attract wildlife and some bylaws just won't allow it. Some people can have a rendering company pick the body up, but in the absence of that, the cost of proper disposal for a 1000lb horse is very high.

The euthanasia itself is problematic as well. I used to prefer it over a bullet but with research now see them to be about on par as long as they are done properly - but that's another debate; the point being that the majority of euthed horses are put down by a vet with an overdose of general anaesthetic. So not only do you have a very large body to deal with, you have one that is loaded with barbituates that are still toxic - I don't agree with burying a horse that has been euthanized this way and risking the barbituates getting into a ground water supply or something. Burning may pose similar risks, and the barbituates will limit how the body can be safely disposed of/rendered.

In the end, a peaceful death generally comes with a very high cost - some are lucky and can do it for next to nothing with a bullet and a backhoe, but that doesn't apply to everybody. Most of us will agree that a responsible owner should have money set aside to whatever proper euthanasia should cost, I don't see slaughter as an appropriate option for what I would consider a "responsible horse owner".

Unfortunately we're not all responsible. Some people see slaughter as a perfectly acceptable way to offload a horse that is no longer useful to them - they don't necessarily have to be breeding, and honestly I have been beyond shocked at some of the horse people I have met who turned out to believe such things - shocked, because a seller may have no idea unless they asked outright. Some people just don't know better and can be educated to make a better decision, but as we all know, some people just. don't. care.

So how do we make people care? I'm all for breeding less - breed only the best, factor in conformation, temperment, performance, marketability, all that, breed as close to "perfection" as possible, IMO. However if you look over on the breeding board (which is fairly busy), it seems that everybody has their own idea of what passes for breeding quality - the title of BYB is quite subjective and many will go to great lengths to justify themselves when the majority objects. It's easy to suggest new regulations or registration procedures to control breeding, but we give up our own rights and freedoms in doing so - the ones who will pay the most are the ones already paying the high cost of doing it right, and of course, the taxpayers.

Nevermind that we're talking about animals' reproduction organs, accidents do happen, and imagine how much it would cost taxpayers to make sure every equine is fixed? So far we can't even do that with dogs and cats.

Other things to consider: We are in hard times right now, and even the responsible people are having difficulty making ends meet, some have had the rug pulled out from under them. Like it or not, there is nothing comparable to slaughter when it comes to cost. I'd prefer to put my energy towards making the slaughtering process itself better regulated, supervised, and more humane for all animals involved. I think every life is sacred, and needs to be treated with respect.

I also eat meat. Someday I hope to raise it myself, and they would be killed at home, where they are most comfortable.

In the end, so far all the arguments opposed to slaughter just don't do it for me. Of course horses don't deserve it, no animal does. The hard truth is that there are people who don't care. I would think we'd have learned it by now - these are the people who if they can't slaughter the horse, they'll starve it. I think we're blaming the wrong thing here, and aside from mass genocide, I'm not sure what the solution is or if there even is one.

Sorry for the novel, just throwing some thoughts out there!


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## bubba13

That's a good thought, Gremmy. We could just kill all the bad/irresponsible people, too (slaughter them!), and be done with the whole problem.


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## bsms

FWIW - a local rescue had 9 (IIRC) horses loaned out to trainers so the trainers could spend a couple months training them for free. They then had a competition for bragging rights, and the rescue could then unload the horses.

Last I heard, only 2 of the 9 horses had homes. The other 7, young healthy horses with a couple of months of free professional training, are waiting. And if hay prices go as high this winter as I expect, they will have a lot of company.

Last December, I sold a nice, registered 8 year old Arabian mare in excellent health who had been ridden regularly for a couple of years. I paid $800 for her, put $2000 into professional training, rode her a bunch, and sold her for...$600. If I hadn't cared about where she went, I might have topped out at $1000. Maybe. No higher.


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## Haylee

I dont see a problem with horse slaughter. Most Zoo's use horse meat for their carnivores, and its really no difforent than cattle slaughter... if your okay with cattle slaughter and eat beef and all that, dont throw a fit about horse slaughter, its really no difforent. There is an over population of horses that arent cared for correctly anyway.


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## Haylee

PETA sucks too by the way. They are all a bunch of un-informed bored people with nothing better to do than but into peoples lives. There stupid. In fact, ive met someone from this organization, and they said me having my service dog was cruel because he is "working for me." Pardon me... but look at my dog... his tail is up and wagging, and he is happy to be with me and helping keep me alive. They are all a bunch of ignorant people and need to keep their stupid mouths shut. They dont know what they are talking about at all. Kinda wish they didnt exist.


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## BravadoThePony

> Probably shot them and ate them. Times are different now. Back them we didn't have as great of food resources as we do now. We don't have a need for slaughter now, other than for blood money.


Why don't you go tell that to the millions of starving people in our world that would kill to get a hunk of horse meat for their family? If you can go out to the grocery store and pick up some food when you're hungry, your in the top 5% of the wealth in this world. You seem to be forgetting this.


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## SarahAnn

I think sterilizing horses is a fantastic idea to help control the population and back yard breeding. I think only licensed breeders who have completed some kind of training or certificate program should be allowed to breed or buy or sell stallions. 

However, I think we need to focus on people first. When DHS has to step in and take a child from their parents (for abuse, neglect, or other inhumane treatment of children) the parents should be sterilized. But no, instead they lose their kids, get a slap on the wrist, and then have more kids. And repeat. If we can't control PEOPLE, we aren't going to control animals or anything else for that matter. 

Horse slaughter is horrible. Absolutely. But so is a horse being ignored, starved, eaten alive by flies, up to its knees in mud and it's own feces. The horse probably wishes someone would just slaughter it so it doesn't have to suffer through a crappy life where no one cares, and those that do care can't do a **** thing to help. Stopping slaughter is just delaying the inevitable. The horse is going to die. It sucks, its sad, and its true. 

I'm not sure these are horses that should be consumed, however, but it is a way to stop their suffering and dispose of their bodies. 

In a perfect world, we'd slaughter the people and rescue the horses. Unfortunately the world is far from perfect :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

Capitalism has a plan in place --- it is called 

*'SUPPLY AND DEMAND'

*The only problem with supply and demand is that it lags about 3 to 4 years behind the market reality.

From the mid 90s until about 2003 or 2004, The demand for good young horses for everything from show to trail horses to roping horse far outdid the supply. People started wanting 'Foundation-bred' horses because they had better feet and bone and had a lot better trainable dispositions than those coming out of the show ring, especially the halter show ring. Specialization had made the general nice, stout good minded saddle horse a rare bird. They could only be found in any number on ranches that raised their own ranch horses. Thus, the 'Foundation-bred' craze that led to 3 or 4 registries that registered only horses that derived most of their background from the original 'Foundation Horses' that were first registered by the AQHA. These horses were even categorized by the % of Foundation blood they had and were penalized for the amount of TB blood they had in them. 

Overnight $300.00 fillies became $5000.00 mares so people could raise enough of them to fill the huge demand. The big norther ranches kept all of their fillies to raise more Foundation-bred horses. They held fall production sales where weanlings brought $3500.00 to $5000.00 each. They sold their cattle (that raised $600.00 calves) so they could raise more foals. We all knew the big bubble had to burst. This kind of market and these kinds of numbers could not be sustained. 

We had kept our old Foundation-bred horses through the bad years in the late 80s and early 90s because we liked them and knew how trainable and durable they were. I still have mares (now) that descend from the first AQHA mare I bought in 1966. We kept our Foundation-bred horses when they were not 'cool'. So, we sold a lot of high priced horses during those good years. We sold a lot of horses before they ever hit the ground. 

But like every other cycle, the bubble had to burst. It started to become apparent in about 2005 that there were too many horses being bred - particularly cutting horses and Foundation-bred saddle horses. Then, in 2007, when people started selling off older mares and were not keeping fillies to make broodmares out of them, the bottom price (the set-in price at horse auctions) fell through the floor with the drop in the slaughter market. A year later, the recession took hold. So it was the 'perfect storm' for the lower end horse market. 

(1) The supply outnumbered the demand. 

(2) The set-in slaughter price went from and average of $800.00 to $200.00 -- a 75% drop.

(3) Te economy went down the tubes while more than 8 million workers became unemployed. 

All of these things happening at once dropped demand down to nothing and the value of all horses dropped like a rock. The lower end saddle horse market took a hit like horses have not taken since tractors replaced work horses after WW I. But, even the specialized markets like race horses and cutting horses also took big hits. That bottom price or 'set-in' price affects ALL facets of the horse industry, but the lower end feels it worst.

During the recession and high unemployment of the 80s, slaughter horses hit a high of $1000.00 to $1200.00 each. 350,000 were shipped each year for several years. That was the last great sell-off until this one hit. There was also a sell-off during the 60s, but again, slaughter horses were high -- nearly as high as beef. The loss of the slaughter market made the difference.

The number of foals registered in 2010 by the AQHA was the lowest number since 1972. That is HUGE. Numbers and production are coming back in line with the demand -- like it always does. It has just taken the bad market years from 2007 to now to get it done. 

This is how the free enterprise and free market system works. It works on supply and demand and it works well, but it is not perfect or it would work on projections instead of reality. ​


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## Bearkiller

Just food for thought, maybe if they let horses be slaughtered for dog food again. The cost of dog food wouldn't be so high and there'd be less people letting their dogs go to the shelters. When ole roy is 27 bucks a bag (at my local walmart), things have gotten bad. I wouldn't feed that junk but when the cheap stuff is that expensive, dogs are going to go hungry. I pay 36 bucks for what I consider a medium quality feed. I'd love to feed my dogs a lower price, higher quality, horse based feed.


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## Saddlebag

Wasn't a "state of the art" plant built in Illinois after the ban was lifted?


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## Haylee

Bearkiller said:


> Just food for thought, maybe if they let horses be slaughtered for dog food again. The cost of dog food wouldn't be so high and there'd be less people letting their dogs go to the shelters. When ole roy is 27 bucks a bag (at my local walmart), things have gotten bad. I wouldn't feed that junk but when the cheap stuff is that expensive, dogs are going to go hungry. I pay 36 bucks for what I consider a medium quality feed. I'd love to feed my dogs a lower price, higher quality, horse based feed.


 
Touche'

I have 5 dogs... each bag of dog food is 50 bucks a bag... they last me maybe a week each.


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## WSArabians

SarahAnn said:


> I think sterilizing horses is a fantastic idea _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lots of vets won`t sterlize mares because it isn`t cheap, and causes alot of problems. My vet wouldn`t consider doing my mare.


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## SarahAnn

Gelding, castrating, call it what you wish. But a gelding is still sterile any way you look at it. A mare can't produce a foal without the help of a stallion. Yes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy

*snort* There is "sterilizing" of one gender going on all the time... It hasn't helped curb the population to date.


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## Bearkiller

SarahAnn said:


> Gelding, castrating, call it what you wish. But a gelding is still sterile any way you look at it. A mare can't produce a foal without the help of a stallion. Yes?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
haha. Right, I think that's how it works. However, how many mares can 1 stallion breed. More than enough, obviously. Just for comparison, the fish and game here likes to keep 15 bucks per 100 does. That's almost 7 does per buck. And alot of the smaller bucks won't even be allowed to breed their "allotment" because the bigger bucks will push them out. 

I think new laws are a bad idea. There are enough laws on the books. Just enforce the ones we have. I also have never read the part of the constitution that says the feds have to power to enforce any of these "laws". It would have to be on a state by state basis. I think it's a shame that people would rather see an animal rot in a landfill than be used to help in other areas.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Bearkiller said:


> Just food for thought, maybe if they let horses be slaughtered for dog food again. The cost of dog food wouldn't be so high and there'd be less people letting their dogs go to the shelters. When ole roy is 27 bucks a bag (at my local walmart), things have gotten bad. I wouldn't feed that junk but when the cheap stuff is that expensive, dogs are going to go hungry. I pay 36 bucks for what I consider a medium quality feed. I'd love to feed my dogs a lower price, higher quality, horse based feed.


I think this is a great idea in theory. I think of my own horses and the things I've put in & on their bodies (vaccines, dewormers, meds, supplements, liniments, dmso, etc....)and there's no way I'd feed it to my dogs nor would I choose to eat it myself. If they were chemical free, I'd be more than happy to feed my dogs feed containing horse meat. I'd love to spend less on dog food, I pay $52 for a 24 lb bag, adds up quick with 2 large dogs especially now during hunting season.


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## Alwaysbehind

MakaylaSimba said:


> guys i really dont know all the info about this issue, all i know is that a really nice girl on youtube saved her horse from slaughter and asked people to sign the petition, so i did, she also said try to get other people to sign it......so i posted it here


Let this be a life lesson for you. Before you post something as your own do some research on it. Just because someone is nice does not mean they have good facts. 
And no, I am not saying you have to agree with the majority that have posted here, just know more about what you are putting out there than 'some nice person said to spread the word'.



crimson88 said:


> I do realize that, but in my opinion I think efforts should be made to have low cost, humane euthanisa more readily available throught the US instead of re-introducing slaughter.


Great. Are you going to bank roll this plan? I can not afford to pay for other people's vet bills and disposal so I hope you, that feels it should be offered up, are willing to pay for it.



crimson88 said:


> Surrender the horse to a 501c rescue that can get a discounted rate for euthanisa and properly dispose of the horse.


In my part of the world the rescues are all full to the brim. And honestly, the horses near me go to Canada for slaughter and have always gone that route. Rescues are still full. There is not some spot to stash every unwanted horse just because the idea of someone else eating them is not appealing to you.

Crimson you do realize that no one is expecting you to have those horses you see out your window slaughtered, right?
Just because you do not like something why make it not an option for someone else?


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## Bearkiller

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I think this is a great idea in theory. I think of my own horses and the things I've put in & on their bodies (vaccines, dewormers, meds, supplements, liniments, dmso, etc....)and there's no way I'd feed it to my dogs nor would I choose to eat it myself. If they were chemical free, I'd be more than happy to feed my dogs feed containing horse meat. I'd love to spend less on dog food, I pay $52 for a 24 lb bag, adds up quick with 2 large dogs especially now during hunting season.


 

Well, I'm not sure what all of those would survive through the process of making the dog food. I do know that I actually worm my dogs with horse wormer, so I wouldn't be too worried about that. It can't be worse than half of the junk that's marketed as dog food now days, anyway. Dogs, with out question, should be fed mostly meat. I have an extra feezer for meat scraps (mostly wild game) I feed my dogs, especially in the winter. They do so much better on it. When chickens are on sale I can get them for less or the same as dog food. I'll buy a bunch and feed that also. I'll also buy tubs of plain yogurt. I feed it all raw so they get all of the nutrients. The dogs will get fat in a hurry if you're feeding them like that and not running them hard, though.


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## Cherie

I am afraid you (collectively) do not realize what goes into pet food. It is not 'human grad' chicken or beef or lamb. I owned a dog food company for many years. When one buys ingredients that meet Federal labeling, they are not human grad ingredients. 

Lamb meal is either condemned carcasses Like those with infections, abscesses, large numbers of parasites and diseases like cancer. A lot of lamb meal comes from Australia or New Zealand or other countries where Scabies is still prevalent. The lamb meal that goes into the 'pet food' manufacturing lines is almost always 'condemned' carcasses and scraps that are anything but edible for anything but a highly cooked product that is sold to a pet food company and not safe for human consumption. 

Poultry meal (may contain both chicken and turkey meat) and chicken meal also comes from carcasses that have been condemned by USDA inspectors. Again, you are feeding diseased and infected chickens, bloody and bruised meat, etc. Just because 'meat' is the first ingredient on the label does not say that it is human grade edible meat. 

This is where cows with cancer eye, diseased livers and cows that are near death (but can still walk through the sale ring) go. Downer cattle (those that cannot walk through the ring are now condemned to rendering plants and cannot enter any food chain.)

Poultry by-product meal comes in several different grades. The lowest grades are cooked down head, guts and feet. When it is cooked down, I would rather have it in my feeds than sick and diseased chickens. 

Prions are net very well understood, but cooking does not render them non-infectious. I would rather have the by-products of healthy animals than the meat and carcass of sick ones that can contain prions. 

Horse-meat has been extensively tested by the EU. They have found less meat contaminated by medicines and chemicals than they have found in inspected beef. Most horses that are shipped to processing plants are neglected and unwanted before they are shipped. They are a lot more prone to have parasites than they are to have dewormers in their systems. Horses that are that well cared for they they have had recent medications and Veterinary treatments are unlikely to end up at the sale barn except for the recently run race horses that end up there. 

If slaughter is restored to the US, most horses will go into feedlots just like cattle do. They are less prone to pneumonia than cattle are are less likely to have antibiotics in their systems. 

The only reason medicine labels say not to use in horses used for slaughter is not because they persist in a horse any longer than they do in cattle. It is because they have not been tested in horses. That may change.


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## Alwaysbehind

Cherie said:


> It is not 'human grad' chicken or beef or lamb. I owned a dog food company for many years. When one buys ingredients that meet Federal labeling, they are not human grad ingredients.


I assume you mean 'grade' not 'grad', correct?


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## Cherie

Yup. Didn't re-read very carefully.


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## wyominggrandma

Crimson88 I find it interesting that you think euthanizing is the only way out for horses these days. Here in Wyoming, euthanizing is about $200, then unless you have property to buy it, YOU have to haul it to the dump, or have the vet meet you there, where it is euthanized with Penicillian instead of Beuathanisia and dumped in a pile to be burned at a later date. The reason they are only allowed to use Penicillian IV is because there is a chance for other animals to eat the carcass and would die from the Buthanasia medication. Or you can bury it at your home if you have a legal right to do so, in some cities and counties you cant do that. Give a horse to rescue? Umm, not likely at all, since there are too many horses everywhere.A guy from california bought property here in Wyoming and ended up with 99 horses and starved them, some to death. The Sheriff took them all and now are fighting him in court so he can have his horses back so he can starve them again? Great thing. 
Here in my valley, horses are starving to death because nobody can afford to feed them, and can't afford to kill them.So, since there is nobody to pick them up for slaughter, they die slowly. Or the bears/wolves/mountain lions get them.
You can't live in a world where you think it is for someone else to fix. If you can afford to keep all your horses your whole life forever, then you are one of the lucky ones.. Most can't, and a time comes when a LARGE animal has to be dealt with.


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## Speed Racer

Cherie, I knew it wasn't human grade meat that goes into pet food, but thanks for that interesting post. 

I remember when they had an outbreak of something that was killing sheep, and suddenly all the dog food companies were touting their 'wonderful' lamb dog food. I knew it wasn't a coincidence. :?

I do hope they get around to testing how long drugs stay in horses the way they have in cattle. I never really understood why it wasn't done. Horses are livestock, so there should have been protocols long before now.


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## demonwolfmoon

Cherie said:


> Lamb meal is either condemned carcasses* Like those with infections, abscesses, large numbers of parasites and diseases like cancer.* A lot of lamb meal comes from Australia or New Zealand or other countries where Scabies is still prevalent. The lamb meal that goes into the 'pet food' manufacturing lines is almost always 'condemned' carcasses and scraps that are anything but edible for anything but a highly cooked product that is sold to a pet food company and not safe for human consumption.
> 
> Poultry meal (may contain both chicken and turkey meat) and chicken meal also comes from carcasses that have been condemned by USDA inspectors. *Again, you are feeding diseased and infected chickens, bloody and bruised meat,* etc. Just because 'meat' is the first ingredient on the label does not say that it is human grade edible meat.
> 
> *This is where cows with cancer eye, diseased livers *and cows that are near death (but can still walk through the sale ring) go. Downer cattle (those that cannot walk through the ring are now condemned to rendering plants and cannot enter any food chain.)
> 
> Poultry by-product meal comes in several different grades. The lowest grades are cooked down head, guts and feet. When it is cooked down, I would rather have it in my feeds than sick and diseased chickens.
> 
> Prions are net very well understood, but cooking does not render them non-infectious. I would rather have the by-products of healthy animals than the meat and carcass of sick ones that can contain prions.


...
I kind of figured that most dog food was like (rumor has it anyway) hotdogs: butts, guts, gristle etc. There is something just unholy about feeding my dog cancer cells....
I'm sure they cook down just like any other protein source...but....*shudder*

Once upon a time, before we moved in Fall of 2008, I used to feed my dogs organic dog food. Before that, I fed organic frozen RAW. Now that I have had no job for awhile.....well, we feed them the cheap stuff, hopefully with protein on the bag before corn. X_X
I don't like doing it....and now I want to vomit and put my head back in the sand.

I wish I knew how to hunt lol.


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## Deslumbrar

Alright folks... here's a real eye opener.


*PETA approves of the ban being lifted: Lifting horse slaughter ban: Why PETA says it's a good idea - CSMonitor.com*
:shock:


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## Ray MacDonald

......................Wha????? PETA? Really?? I don't know how to feel about that...


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## smrobs

Wow, I think that is the _only_ sensible thing I've _ever_ heard come from the mouth of a PETA person.


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## demonwolfmoon

Ray MacDonald said:


> ......................Wha????? PETA? Really?? I don't know how to feel about that...


Eh, PETA does a lot of killing themselves.

I understand where they're coming from...they Prefer this didn't exist, but by it existing *here* they hope to *minimize suffering*.


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## Ray MacDonald

Very true Demon


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## WSArabians

Damage control?? They realized what a bunch of tools they looked like advocating the ban and increasing the suffering of horses. They haven't changed.


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## wyominggrandma

Typical ploy with PETA, anything to get their name out. It would fit with their ideals, they do not want ANYONE to own ANY animals at all, so in their warped way, this is getting rid of animals faster.
Just an interesting side note, today the CEO of HSUS(humane society of the united states) has publically admitted (what alot of us have known for years)that they do NOT HAVE ANY animal shelters in the united states, AT ALL. All the money they bring in is for operating costs, campaigns, and to stay working alongside their best friend PETA. 
This is HSUS, not the american humane society that does help all animals.
People donate to HSUS all the time thinking they are helping poor animals, when in fact HSUS is like PETA, they do not want you to have animals, they push ridiculous pet bans, etc.


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## SarahAnn

Bearkiller said:


> haha. Right, I think that's how it works. However, how many mares can 1 stallion breed. More than enough, obviously. Just for comparison, the fish and game here likes to keep 15 bucks per 100 does. That's almost 7 does per buck. And alot of the smaller bucks won't even be allowed to breed their "allotment" because the bigger bucks will push them out.
> 
> I think new laws are a bad idea. There are enough laws on the books. Just enforce the ones we have. I also have never read the part of the constitution that says the feds have to power to enforce any of these "laws". It would have to be on a state by state basis. I think it's a shame that people would rather see an animal rot in a landfill than be used to help in other areas.


If they set some kind of "rules" as to who was able to stud out their stallions, who was allowed to own one, etc. it would make a difference. Even though you think there are too many laws already, there are tons of laws and ordinances that are ridiculous. For example, in Bangor, Maine there is a city ordinance that says its illegal for more then 5 women to share a dwelling unit because it's considered a brothel. That's okay, but a law that controls stud ownership and breeding isn't? That's just ridiculous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## animalartcreations

The question is......if rules are made concerning breeding....._who_ is it that decides who can have a stud and who can't? Even with all the good intentions in the world, once folks have power it is used to benefit a select few while everyone else has to bow to the powers that be. The system becomes "rigged" if you will. We have enough of that kind of thing already.


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## SarahAnn

Well, sure. Systems can always get "rigged." And I am not going to sit around and pretend that I have all the answers, because I don't. I was just thinking that it might be a good idea. And maybe taking a course or being licensed or certified to own and breed studs could work. You would at least weed out the people who couldn't afford the class, let alone afford owning horses that then multiply, all while starving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy

And where is the money going to come from to enforce this? States/counties/towns/etc can't even reliably enforce their cat/dog licensing due to lack of funding...


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## Jumper4ever

morally, i am opposed to slaughter. I believe it is very wrong to slaughter any animal under bad conditions along with being treated poorly up to it. if it is legal shouldn't it be humane? personally im disgusted that obama passed this bill


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## animalartcreations

I've often thought that a required class and license would be good for the human overpopulation problem. You know, just because you CAN have children, doesn't mean you should. jk

Rules, regulations, laws, etc. are a way for the powers that be to artificially regulate the supply/demand market. The government doesn't do a very good job and more often than not, makes things worse.


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## SarahAnn

NdAppy said:


> And where is the money going to come from to enforce this? States/counties/towns/etc can't even reliably enforce their cat/dog licensing due to lack of funding...



The money can come from the cost to take the certificate class, and the registration fee when you get registered as a stud owner/ breeder. 

At least a portion of the funding can come from that... 

Just an idea. Its totally cool to rain allll over my parade. I haven't really put enough thought into it anyway. Its something that would take a lot of planning in order to work out the kinks. But I think it's doable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wyominggrandma

They try to make it as humane as possible.
However, its just as cruel to watch a horse die of starvation, or be in such pain but the owners can't afford to euthanize it. I am curious what you consider bad conditions?
I just got done shooting and slaughtering two steers. They dropped in their grain buckets and until they bled out, their muscles etc jerked and moved, yet there were dead, no eye movement or motion. Do you consider this cruel also?
Or is it because its okay to kill a steer, but not a horse? A shot to the head is fast and quick. I have also been involved in many euthanizing of horses, it is usually very fast and quick, but I have seen ones go wrong and it takes longer than normal. Guess that is considered cruel also.
It might disgust you that the bill was opened again, BUT, since I doubt you or anyone else has the land/feed necessary to keep all the old, sick, injured or whatever else condition horses for their lifetime. Years ago people could afford to keep horses as yard ornaments for their lifetime, now the economy makes it very difficult to do.
I would rather seen horse slaughter done again that watch the way people treat the same horse: let it starve, turn it loose to see wild animals eat it, dogs chase them for sport through fences, or just take it on public land somewhere and leave it and drive off, after all, is a horse so it should be able to fend for itself
A trip in a trailer and a quick bullet is much faster than other scenerios.


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## SarahAnn

animalartcreations said:


> I've often thought that a required class and license would be good for the human overpopulation problem. You know, just because you CAN have children, doesn't mean you should. jk


I have always agreed with that! Being a direct result of un planned and poor parenting, and doing the run around with foster parents, I always said that you should have to qualify to be a parent- similar to the process of adopting children.


Rules said:


> I can't disagree with that no matter how hard I try!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon

The registering for breeding plan would only be applicable to people who are the more responsible breeders and I am betting even they would oppose to more fees they would have to pay to breed a horse. Breeding is expensive, especially when you are breeding horses that are registered with breed associations. 

In addition, those who could care less about the welfare of the industry and health of the individual animals and are just breeding for the hell of it are going to completely disregard any sort of registration like the one you suggested.


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## wyominggrandma

It would be as impossible to regulate breeders/owners of stallions as it would be to regulate breeders/owners of dogs that can reproduce. Impossible. 
Problem is, as soon as the government can tell you how you can breed your horse/dog/cat/bull, etc, they are taking away more rights. Right now some places you can't own "bully" type dogs, breed specific laws, etc. are made everyday across the US. Would you want someone to say" okay, you can breed QH, but you can't breed Arabians because they are too high spirited, Draft horses are too big and cost to much to eat, Thoroughbreds are crazy. You get the point, as soon as a restriction came into effect to halt anyone from owning a stallion, breeding a mare, then those same restrictions and laws will stop you from owning certain breeds.
How about if nobody can slaughter beef anymore because it is cruel? So what, stop producing beef, everyone has to eat vegetarian? A horse is a horse to some people, a pet and lifelong companion to others. Nobody has the right to tell you you can't breed it or slaughter it. Its YOUR animal, but you don't have the right to choose the way someone else takes care of THEIR animal, even though its not what you would do.


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## SarahAnn

Yeah. You're probably right. But I really think that if enough people were on board, it could be possible. Like if you have a foal to an unregistered sire or dam, then the foal can not be registered. And only registrations are permitted among people who have completed their certification class... Something like that maybe? Hit me again, Ike!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy

Kind of like the old saying...

you can pick your friends. You can pick your nose. But you can't pick your friend's nose.


*giggle* 


Same concept applies though. It does not apply to you, it is not yours, keep your fingers off of it.


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## smrobs

wyominggrandma said:


> Or is it because its okay to kill a steer, but not a horse? A shot to the head is fast and quick. I have also been involved in many euthanizing of horses, it is usually very fast and quick, but *I have seen ones go wrong and it takes longer than normal*. Guess that is considered cruel also.


People often forget that as well. Euthanasia is not the end all for humane methods of death. My brother's old boss had a horse that was hurt very badly in an accident. The vet attempted to euth the horse and the horse layed there for a very long time, thrashing and fighting after the shot was given. Even after a subsequent dose of drugs, the horse still did not die. Finally my brother used his gun with a shot to the head that killed the horse instantly. I'm sure if that horse could talk, he would say that he would have preferred a bullet to begin with.


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## wyominggrandma

Again, trying to regulate horse breeding would be like dog breeding. You can't register puppies/dogs through AKC without the sire/dam being registered. DNA is required after siring so many litters or whelping so many litters. 
BUT, instead of stopping people from breeding mix breeds or poor examples of dog breeds, they have instead made up "fake" junk registries and sell puppies that way. What do you think designer dogs are? They can't be registered with AKC, so they have designer dog registries and lets face it, they are MUTTS. Labrdoodles, cockadoodles, yorkipoos, morkies, puggles, these are all made up breeds that people pay and arm and leg for because they are "designer" breeds.
It would be just the same thing in horses, start putting controls on breeding and breeds and folks will just make up new breeds and start registries for them, and sell them for more money because they are "rare".


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## kevinshorses

There is also a little thing called personal freedom and limited government. We don't need the government intruding any further into our lives. If there is something wrong in your lives then fix it or learn to live with it. Don't look to the government to fix everything that's wrong in your life.


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## Horsesdontlie

I am very very happy to see some post in the support of the removal of the ban. I see so many posts from people throughout the world to try and get American's to have the ban put back into place. Makes me want to shake my head. Everyone seems to get so tied up in the emotions of their pets. I remember writing an essay in a college Agriculture class on the need for a lift on the ban. I swear I had girls that had been sitting next to me pick up their stuff and move away from me. But heck, I got one of the highest grades on that paper in the class. Honestly I have known cows and pigs with loads of personality and uniqueness....I still eat my bacon and burgers just fine. Most people have already posted on my opinion so I won't make it long.


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## Cherie

Good grief people --- You cannot even get people to stop abusing and killing their children and we have thousands of rules and laws on the books. We have some women that have 5 or 6 or more 'unwanted' children that the taxpayers have to support and you really think you can stop idiots from letting their intact junk horse breed their fertile ugly mares cause a baby horse would be so cute?

What planet do you live on?


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## wyominggrandma

Such a good post Cherie. Its so true, yet the ones against horse slaughter are thinking with their hearts and obviously well padded wallets instead of admitting that when horses DIE, which they all do, or get to a point where they need to be DESTROYED, then it needs to be done. Sure if the world was a big rainbow where all horses lived happily and never had to be euthanized or shot or slaughtered, it would be wonderful, but its not gonna happen.
I raised and fed our two steers for a year, 640 was a pet, he came running when called, he would let me scratch him and play grain bucket games. But, that did not stop me from butchering him and now thoroughly enjoying him on the dinner table. 
Slaughter plants in the US have needed to be reopened ever since they did close them. I would rather put a horse on a truck to be transported to the plants in the US in one day or two at most,, and know that they will be killed quickyl at our plants in the US, than put them on a truck to Canada/Mexico, travel for days and go to plants that are not regulated. 
For the bleeding hearts that talk about the videos that are shown about the cruel treatment of horses, cutting them up before being dead, being mistreated, those are on the low extreme of slaughter and are not right, but that is not the typical way they are killed. Those videos are used to try to stop slaughter by showing the worst end of things. Hey, wake up and watch the news,bad things happen everyday to every living thing whether there are laws or not. Its called LIFE.
Opening the plants will make it easier for the people who need to ship a horse, whether for financial gain or because euthanizing/burying them is impossible where they live. Each decision has to be made and its hard either way, but at least this is faster for our horses when it does happen.
Unless the bleeding hearts have a way , both financially and with land to keep all the unwanted, sick or old horses for everyone, they need to grow up and face reality.


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## FlyGap

I agree with you 1,000,000%! 

People gonna do what they gonna do. Weather we like it or not, what rules are in place, horses are going to be bred regardless.
Right now we are taxed to the hilt and I get a whopping charge on my paycheck to pay for people who "breed" themselves silly and hold out their hands. I'm ALLLL for helping people in duress but... Right now I have a Brother and SIL who are under 30, have no medical problems, never really worked a day in their lives, and they just had two "unplanned" kids who are only 11mos. apart. They get food stamps, had their babies for free, get money for utilities, etc... and are thinking about trying for a girl! AAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!! / 

All of the "regulation" posters need to think about what the gov could do to us to "help" the horses and animals and regulate breeding. You wanna nother tax? How about taxing you on your livestock? Scary huh? Can you afford to pay more to own your horses in order to cover the cost of "regulation"? Cause that's how they do it! 

Personally, I feel like it's a FINE way to go. A horse (in a lot of cases) gets pampered and spoiled for over 20 years, gets injured or develops a condition, has two rough days and then life is over. I'd rather have that then face what I'll probably have to go through, YEARS or MONTHS of pain and medical care that will probably bankrupt me only to die loaded up and out of it in a hospital bed.
I also think that if a horse is fugly, dangerous, unwanted, two days and life is over is the way to go. Euths go wrong EVERY day, you can't RESPONSIBLY bury them, around here they ACTUALLY allow you to take them to the dump! Great! Thank heavens I live on a mountain top and don't rely on common ground water aquifers. 
I really hope the USDA starts testing the horse meat and finds that most horse is fine for dog food. I would like there to be a way to certify that horses sold as meat are free of carcinogens. And cows and chickens don't exactly fit the bill EVEN now, but we eat em up. I'd LOVE cheaper dog food, filled with good horse meat, that dosen't include diseased animals and corn. I can't pay $50 for a 15lb. bag of dog food now, mine would go through that in 2 days, so they get the cheaper chicken based stuff.

Just my thoughts.


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## wyominggrandma

Another good post. Put the horse meat to good use. Most owners of horses don't give the animal medicated food to make it fat for market like done with cows/chickens. So, unless you feed your own beef, you don't know what you are eating. Horse meat would be great dog food, and like you, I can't afford $15 for 20lbs of "organic" dog food. 
People need to stop putting OUR human emotions on animals. Horses, dogs, cats, cattle, chickens, etc. They do not have emotions like we do. They do not wake up in the morning and say" oh my, I am going to be put on a truck and taken to a plant to die."They don't think" I am going to race today and break my leg and die". They live their lives day by day. Once an animal is dead, they are dead. A quick two day death is so much better than a week on a truck to who knows where in what country .


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## FlyGap

Do you like whales? Do you want to see them slaughtered in the wild, hauled up on a boat and chopped to death or drowned just to be eaten? Do you know how much more intelligent and "aware" they are than our unwanted horses?

The Japanese GLADLY snap up our horse meat in place of the restricted illegal whale meat. All we need are simple forms provided by our vets, that are required with sale, that states that we didn't load our horses with chemicals or waited a "safe" amount of time before sale. Done deal. That would even improve horse health across the board and make stupid breeders take better care of their horses, and possibly reduce breedings if they think that they will have to provide any kind of health documentation upon sale. Kind of like neg. coggins.

Just another thought.


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## Bearkiller

SarahAnn said:


> For example, in Bangor, Maine there is a city ordinance that says its illegal for more then 5 women to share a dwelling unit because it's considered a brothel. That's okay, but a law that controls stud ownership and breeding isn't? That's just ridiculous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
The implication is that I support that law in Maine. I think it's ridiculous and goes to my point that we have too many laws. And no, I don't think any federal laws controlling animals are constitutional. What ammendment of the constitution allows the feds to regulate animal breeding? This would turn into the have's and have nots again. Not long ago, a guy could start with nothing in this country and work hard and get rich. Now you have to either inherit some money or sell your soul to get rich. Too much regulation, period. BTW, I would be in favor of legalizing prostitution at the state level and then taxing it like any other business.


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## Speed Racer

Bear, move to Nevada. Prostitution's legal there, and is taxed just like any other business. :wink:

Interestingly enough, it's illegal in Las Vegas. I'd think that'd be the place where a brothel could really thrive.


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## wyominggrandma

Yea, but it doesn't take long to drive to Reno or surrounding areas if you really need a brothel fast.


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## animalartcreations

The scare tactics about horse meat being toxic is a bunch of hooey. There have been no tests that I know of. However, the meat Americans eat, and documented as "safe" by the government by the way, are full of growth hormones, antibiotics, and chemicals. My family eats the meat we grow on our farm. We give our food animals a happy life until the day it's time to serve their purpose. That cannot be said about the mass produced meat and a majority of the eggs and milk found in mainstream grocery stores. Horse meat is good protein, and I would rather see it feed dogs than disrespectfully rot in a landfill.


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## Bearkiller

haha. I'm not actually pro prostitution. I just think that since it happens, it should be taxed like any business. If states want to ban it, I really don't care. I just don't see how that's bad but they can have a state run lottery. It's strange how one persons sin is ok but anothers isn't. The government shouldn't be in the business of regulating morality. Or animal breeding.


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## WSArabians

SarahAnn said:


> If they set some kind of "rules" as to who was able to stud out their stallions, who was allowed to own one, etc. it would make a difference. Even though you think there are too many laws already, there are tons of laws and ordinances that are ridiculous. For example, in Bangor, Maine there is a city ordinance that says its illegal for more then 5 women to share a dwelling unit because it's considered a brothel. That's okay, but a law that controls stud ownership and breeding isn't? That's just ridiculous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Neither is okay.
But it will be a cold day in h*ll when someone else tells me I can or cannot own a stallion. 

This is modern North America, not the old communist USSR. We just have to learn to use our bloody heads.


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## .Delete.

Regulating people and regulating animals are two very different things


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## lacyloo

> Have you not heard of *humane, low cost euthenisa*? Three local rescues here hold "euthenisa clinics" several times a year where vet's donate their time to euthinze anyone's horse.


 Dogs and cats have that same opportunity, I don't know of any vet that will refuse to put an animal down. Yet we still see dogs starving and chained up in backyards. :-| Low cost humane euthanasia will not change anything in the horse world 
​


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## kait18

sorry to bud in  but i tried reading everything to catch up but that was impossible... but is the stuff we give our horses like dewormers, vaccines, meds and what not considered toxic??
i heard something a while ago that if an animal was considered food worthy it had to be drug free for a period of time. is this true?

keep in mind i am pro slaughter .. i just think they could do it more humanely somehow.


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## smrobs

Yes, there is generally a "withdrawal" period for animals after receiving any kind of medication. After that set amount of time, the horse has metabolized the medicine and it is out of their system.


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## kait18

thank you i was unsure about that.


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## BarrelracingArabian

honestly I am against slaughter _*to a point*_. however if people would smarten up and stop breeding useless horses and/or buying babies because they are a 'trainer' and want the experience we would not have this problem. Another alternative would be that if the horse is no longer fit to ride or you can't afford to support you unrideable oldies just put the poor things to sleep and burry them it may seem cruel but one bullet and a borrowed digger machine (brain is dead on real name haha) is a much nicer way to go then being shipped cramped up starved then shoved into a slot to be tazed flipped upside down and having your throught slit. Just my own little rant. Also the unbanning of slaughter here just makes it more likely that horses will be stolen to make a profit on them so if I were all you people I'd be keeping a close eye especially with all the sudden horse nappings lately. ok :] I'm done now hehe


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## SarahAnn

WSArabians said:


> Neither is okay.
> But it will be a cold day in h*ll when someone else tells me I can or cannot own a stallion.
> 
> This is modern North America, not the old communist USSR. We just have to learn to use our bloody heads.


I own a stallion. I have for 6 years. And I have not once had an accidental pregnancy. I love my stallion to pieces, he's one of the best behaved horses I have. If someone told me I had to take a class in order to own him, you bet your buns I would be taking that class at the first available opening. I am a responsible horse owner, and I am willing to prove that. It can't hurt to take a class and get certified, but it WOULD weed out the people who are not willing to do so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SarahAnn

wyominggrandma said:


> Again, trying to regulate horse breeding would be like dog breeding. You can't register puppies/dogs through AKC without the sire/dam being registered. DNA is required after siring so many litters or whelping so many litters.
> BUT, instead of stopping people from breeding mix breeds or poor examples of dog breeds, they have instead made up "fake" junk registries and sell puppies that way. What do you think designer dogs are? They can't be registered with AKC, so they have designer dog registries and lets face it, they are MUTTS. Labrdoodles, cockadoodles, yorkipoos, morkies, puggles, these are all made up breeds that people pay and arm and leg for because they are "designer" breeds.
> It would be just the same thing in horses, start putting controls on breeding and breeds and folks will just make up new breeds and start registries for them, and sell them for more money because they are "rare".


Like Morabs? Warmbloods? Anlgo- Arabian? 

I guess you're right. People are already registering these cross bred "mutts" and calling them their own breed. 

I was simply trying to suggest something that MIGHT work if enough people tried and wanted it to. Now I feel like I am spending more time defending my idea then expressing it. Which is silly because I really was just suggesting, as I haven't done too much thinking or planning or looking for loopholes. Good 'ol HF is good at doing that for me :wink:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WSArabians

SarahAnn said:


> I own a stallion. I have for 6 years. And I have not once had an accidental pregnancy. I love my stallion to pieces, he's one of the best behaved horses I have. If someone told me I had to take a class in order to own him, you bet your buns I would be taking that class at the first available opening. I am a responsible horse owner, and I am willing to prove that. It can't hurt to take a class and get certified, but it WOULD weed out the people who are not willing to do so.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would too. I have no doubt Reed would pass any inspection thrown at him. 
My point is you cannot tell someone wether they can or cant own a stallion. We live in a FREE country. Now believe me, there are sh*tloads out there that should not have horses, and stallions that should not have nuts. But that is not my right to tell them they cannot own that horse. You would have a civil war in no time. 

That being said, as you stated, 'accidental' pregnancies are easy to prevent. That should not matter. Yes, more people should casterate. But what it all boils down too is not the amount os stallions, but the amount of stupid people. Once THAT problem is fixed, excess foals wont be an issue.


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## WSArabians

kait18 said:


> thank you i was unsure about that.


Here in Canada they say you need a clean bill of health from a vet and not have had any meds for thirty days. How closely this is regulated, I don't know. I haven't been to an auction in years.


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## SarahAnn

Touche. You win. Stupid people are definitely the problem. 

Stupids should be gelded in order to not reproduce more stupids.


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## bubba13

Bearkiller said:


> And no, I don't think any federal laws controlling animals are constitutional.


Even animal abuse bans?



> Not long ago, a guy could start with nothing in this country and work hard and get rich.


When was this?


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## WSArabians

****
National Stupid Human Sterlization day. Now that I would go for!


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## Bearkiller

SarahAnn said:


> Stupids should be gelded in order to not reproduce more stupids.


 
Stupid is relative. It boils down to this being a huge country with vast cultural differences. I've met alot of people who probably have very high IQ's, that I wouldn't trust to clean the dog crap out of my kennels. City people, as a rule, lack any form of common sense and it's starting to show in our culture. That's why this country is so politically divided. Most people are like sheep and just follow with what everyone else is doing to be cool.


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## Arksly

Bearkiller said:


> haha. I'm not actually pro prostitution. I just think that since it happens, it should be taxed like any business. If states want to ban it, I really don't care. I just don't see how that's bad but they can have a state run lottery. It's strange how one persons sin is ok but anothers isn't. The government shouldn't be in the business of regulating morality. Or animal breeding.


Murder happens. Some people kill for money. Does that mean we should legalize it too?


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## SarahAnn

Bearkiller said:


> Stupid is relative. It boils down to this being a huge country with vast cultural differences. I've met alot of people who probably have very high IQ's, that I wouldn't trust to clean the dog crap out of my kennels. City people, as a rule, lack any form of common sense and it's starting to show in our culture. That's why this country is so politically divided. Most people are like sheep and just follow with what everyone else is doing to be cool.



Well, you're right. I have seen some very intelligent people do things that are completely stupid. And vise versa. My teenage sister is very stupid, but every now and then I am pleasantly surprised when she does something smart. 

Unfortunately its the population of people that are not smart enough to take birth control properly, or use contraceptives the way they are intended, that make up the majority of the stupid clan... and then they have children who have children who have children.... and so on... 

Maybe we should just let me be the judge and we'll geld anyone I personally consider stupid. Ah, yes, now THAT'S the best idea I've come up with thus far!


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## SarahAnn

Arksly said:


> Murder happens. Some people kill for money. Does that mean we should legalize it too?



We could tax the crap outta murder charges. Great idea. 

Honestly though, I have always thought we should legalize all drugs, and tax them... we'd be out of debt in no time. Tax payers wouldn't have to pay for drug users to be in jail, which would save us billions. And if your neighbor wants to be a drug addict, who cares? Really? Why should MY tax money pay for YOU to have a free place to live, with a hot shower and 3 square meals everyday? Just because you used or sold drugs...? There are hard working people in this country that don't even have that, and they're not drug users. Just something to think about.


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## Bearkiller

Arksly said:


> Murder happens. Some people kill for money. Does that mean we should legalize it too?


 
Nope. Murder violates the rights of a person. Who's rights are being violated by prostitution? I am against it but there is a place for government and a place for religion. Government shouldn't be legislating morality. Someones morals have to win.........


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## Bearkiller

bubba13 said:


> Even animal abuse bans?
> 
> 
> 
> Even animal abuse "bans". Show me where that is in the constitution........
> 
> Why does the FEDERAL government need these laws? The states can enact what laws they see fit. There is rarely a one sized solution for all 50 states.
Click to expand...


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## Bearkiller

SarahAnn said:


> We could tax the crap outta murder charges. Great idea.
> 
> Honestly though, I have always thought we should legalize all drugs, and tax them... we'd be out of debt in no time. Tax payers wouldn't have to pay for drug users to be in jail, which would save us billions. And if your neighbor wants to be a drug addict, who cares? Really? Why should MY tax money pay for YOU to have a free place to live, with a hot shower and 3 square meals everyday? Just because you used or sold drugs...? There are hard working people in this country that don't even have that, and they're not drug users. Just something to think about.


 
I don't have trouble with drug laws, again, at the state level. The problem with drug users is their poor judgement. I'm including alcohol with drugs. Drug addicts frequently violate the rights of other people by driving under the influence and causing accidents, ect. It's poor choices that lead us to stupid laws. There will always be people who make stupid decisions and there will always be a government to tell people how to live their lives because of it.


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## SarahAnn

Just because drugs are legal doesn't mean its legal to drive or violate other people's rights while under the influence of them. Just like alcohol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bearkiller

I agree. But using drugs cloud a persons judgement. We all know that. I think or current drug laws are stupid and the federal laws are unconstitutional. I am for repealing all of the federal drug laws. Along with abolishing the ATF and FBI, ect...... There is no constitutional basis for them.

10th ammendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


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## Ray MacDonald

Kind of like how my High School no longer has Dances. People get drunk and high and bad things happen.


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## SarahAnn

Ray MacDonald said:


> Kind of like how my High School no longer has Dances. People get drunk and high and bad things happen.


:rofl: I'm sorry, I can't help laughing. This has always happened since the beginning of the history of dances. People are just crazy about it now. Principals and parents and teachers are control freaks, and would rather not waste their time at a dance anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

Bearkiller said:


> City people, as a rule, lack any form of common sense and it's starting to show in our culture.


Please elaborate this for me? 
Especially since there's quite a bit of stupid coming out of the non-"city" folk.
Or do you imagine there to be a lot of BYB breeding horses in the middle of our large cities?

I have to say, I doubt a mare and foal would have fit in the window box porch of my condo in Southern Cali... ... maybe a few "designer dogs" in breeder cages... :think:

Can we just agree that a LOT of people seem to lack common sense and responsibility these days?


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## WSArabians

Well... Slaughter to Prositution to Murder to Drugs... I'm not gonna lie when I say I didn't see this turn coming! 

Just to clairfy, when I said stupid people - I meant those who breed continually (I have a breeder in Penn. that I'd love to slap upside the head) and they don't breed well - they breed for a quick batch of $100 foals or colour instead of conformation while you have flashy foals, they aren't good riding and (especially) breeding material. Yet you keep producing it. And mass produce.

I don't care if you live in New York City or the middle of Alaska with the polar bears, but if that's what you're doing - you're stupid. In my opinion.


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## AlexS

WSArabians said:


> Just to clairfy, when I said stupid people - I meant those who breed continually (I have a breeder in Penn. that I'd love to slap upside the head) and they don't breed well - they breed for a quick batch of $100 foals or colour instead of conformation while you have flashy foals, they aren't good riding and (especially) breeding material. Yet you keep producing it. And mass produce.
> 
> I don't care if you live in New York City or the middle of Alaska with the polar bears, but if that's what you're doing - you're stupid. In my opinion.


But that's just it, it's opinion - I don't care for color breeders but many of them are far from stupid - they are smart as heck and making a lot of money from the stupid people who are buying for color only. The stupid is further down the line - immoral, maybe - but heck we'd never be able to buy a used car if we started with policies that controlled that.


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## VelvetsAB

Well, I am truely glad to know that because I am a "city" person, that I am stupid. 

Good job on the stereotyping!!

I could definately say that this statement could go the other way, and that I know a lot of dumbarses that come from the country, but that would be stereotyping. Especially considering I also know a lot of smart people that come from the city. 

Just like stereotyping ALL BYB's as bad. Its a falsehood. Some backyard breeders actually know what they are doing, and get a few quality foals per year, which go on to be good equine citizens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind

SarahAnn said:


> It can't hurt to take a class and get certified, but it WOULD weed out the people who are not willing to do so.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really?

You are kidding right?

Next time someone illegally owns a gun we will have to remind them politely that gun safety courses and registration was supposed to weed out the people who are not responsible.


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## SarahAnn

And just like a gun, you can just hide your horse under your bed so no one knows you have one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## goneriding

SarahAnn said:


> Well, you're right. I have seen some very intelligent people do things that are completely stupid. And vise versa. My teenage sister is very stupid, but every now and then I am pleasantly surprised when she does something smart.
> 
> Unfortunately its the population of people that are not smart enough to take birth control properly, or use contraceptives the way they are intended, that make up the majority of the stupid clan... and then they have children who have children who have children.... and so on...
> 
> Maybe we should just let me be the judge and we'll geld anyone I personally consider stupid. Ah, yes, now THAT'S the best idea I've come up with thus far!


They are irresponsible because they have a crutch.....taxpayers supporting their irresponsible behavior. Take the crutch away and I guarantee you they will think twice about their choices.


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## Bearkiller

I agree that there are stupid people everywhere. But there aren't enough of these backwoods hillbilly's to make stupid laws. The stupid laws are coming from population centers that have thrived on welfare (all types not just food stamps) for decades.

Goneriding, I was riding in my truck with my wife and kids the other day and a song came on by a very popular young lady named taylor swift. You may have heard of her. Anyway, my wife was singing this song and I turned and looked at her and asked her if she ever thought about the words to the song. Of course she hadn't, it was a song about apparently repercussionless premarital sex. The song doesn't offend me but it's being pumped into millions of little girls heads. Now I'm not much of a country music fan but this is music that's protrayed as innocent. It's certainly not realistic.


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## animalartcreations

The government gives "assistance" supplied by tax payer dollars to encourage dependence on the government because when they have something over you, you can be controlled. Those who have bought into the scam become loyal sheep who breed more loyal sheep. The government is sneaky about it, too. The government creates situations by market manipulation, foreign trade deals, and regulations to get the people to demand government intervention. I wish America would wake up and start taking personal responsibility instead of looking for the government to "fix" things. Oh yeah, they'll fix things alright! Fix us right into line where we don't have any rights left.


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## Bearkiller

demonwolfmoon said:


> Please elaborate this for me?


I clearly said our culture, not just BYB. And yes I can elaborate. Look at the occupy wall street movement. They are the perfect example of what I said about our culture. They want something for nothing. I agree with the idea that the system is broken but it's not the people on wall street who broke it. It's the people in Washington regulating our lives away.


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## SarahAnn

Artists have been singing about repercussionless premarital sex for longer then Taylor Swift has been alive. Don't blame the music. The problem comes down to poor parenting, just like a misbehaved horse is the result of poor training and owner knowledge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bearkiller

animalartcreations said:


> The government gives "assistance" supplied by tax payer dollars to encourage dependence on the government because when they have something over you, you can be controlled. Those who have bought into the scam become loyal sheep who breed more loyal sheep. The government is sneaky about it, too. The government creates situations by market manipulation, foreign trade deals, and regulations to get the people to demand government intervention. I wish America would wake up and start taking personal responsibility instead of looking for the government to "fix" things. Oh yeah, they'll fix things alright! Fix us right into line where we don't have any rights left.


 

That is stated perfectly.


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## Bearkiller

SarahAnn said:


> Artists have been singing about repercussionless premarital sex for longer then Taylor Swift has been alive. Don't blame the music. The problem comes down to poor parenting, just like a misbehaved horse is the result of poor training and owner knowledge.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 

I don't blame the music. I blame the parents who let their kids listen to that crap. If no one was buying it there wouldn't be a market for it. The point of my post was basically that, my wife had never even paid attention to what the words meant. It was an innocent mistake and it's subtle but it's definately there. For the record, I am basically banned from listening to any good music in front of my kids. I guess that's what happens when a punk rock loving ******* from washington marries the daughter of an independant fundamentalist baptist preacher from the south. LOL


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## SarahAnn

I don't hide good music from my child. That's just silly. Music is an art, an expression, and I will not ever take that from my daughter. I will pay attention to what she's listening to, have a conversation with her frequently about the music, but I will not deprive her of any art that she sees as an outlet or a way of expression, or just something she enjoys that might make her feel good. The key to parenting is paying attention to the signs of confusion, anger, and sadness. Its picking up on your cues as a parent. Talking to your children and having an open line of communication. Not depriving them of things that are going to make them feel good, or things that will make them ask questions. Questions are good as long as the parents are prepared for the conversation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste

The human population has topped 7 billion. The people in the USA that have unwanted babies are a small portion of these people. People in developing nations may not know about birth control. They may not have access to birth control. If they do have access to birth control and understand it, they may not want to use it. They feel that they need kids to work the fields. They are counting on kids to keep them up when they are old. Regardless of these issues, the planet has exceeded the carrying capacity for our species and it is bound to have bad consequences.


----------



## WSArabians

AlexS said:


> But that's just it, it's opinion - I don't care for color breeders but many of them are far from stupid - they are smart as heck and making a lot of money from the stupid people who are buying for color only. The stupid is further down the line - immoral, maybe - but heck we'd never be able to buy a used car if we started with policies that controlled that.


That's why they have over 60 horses, all in need of trims and worming, and every year they need to sell to "make room for this year's foal crop!!!" when they are lucky to have sold three of last years 20 foals produced. 
Here's an idea: Quit breeding until you sell off the foals you already have on the ground.
Call it what you will, I call it stupid.


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## Bearkiller

SarahAnn said:


> I don't hide good music from my child. That's just silly. Music is an art, an expression, and I will not ever take that from my daughter.


 
I prefer to keep my children innocent until they are old enough to understand and make their own decisions. There is ALOT of "art" (including music) that has no business being seen (or heard) by children. Ever. For a parent (?) to say they won't "take that away from" them is, quite frankly, one of the dumbest thing's I've ever read. I'm not talking about adult children. I have a 6 and an 8 year old. Not that it would matter.


----------



## Bearkiller

WSArabians said:


> That's why they have over 60 horses, all in need of trims and worming, and every year they need to sell to "make room for this year's foal crop


 
Unless you are buying the hay, why should it matter to you? I don't think wild horses ever get trimmed or wormed. It's alot harder to sell poorly cared for animals. So if they are not taking care of them it's a bad business decision.


----------



## FlyGap

HA HA! This is getting funny (true and scary), I love it!

I listen to all kinds of music, but I watch it around my kid. There is NOOO reason kids need to be exposed, they need a CHILDHOOD. My daughter is 6 going on 7, not 6 going on 20 and that is because we make sure we keep an eye on what she is around.

Welfare IS a way to keep people under control, brain washed, and totally dependent on the gov and are yes men instead of WTF men. The ********, hillbillies, bible beaters, small farmers, non-unionized factory workers, and ranchers are the GLUE of this country and still live by the seat of their drawers, dependent only on themselves and their families. The Liberals help create the trailer trash (I grew up in one), HUD people, and the welfare mammas and are the ones that take MY money and help pass laws that keep them in power. I've said it before but the "99% of what?" are barking up the wrong tree and like said before need to occupy a desk not wallstreet. Wallstreet isn't the problem, the gov, all their "regulations", oil prospectors, and too many others are. I'm a member of an art forum and they crucify newbies, especially the ones who want to do work for free to build their portfolios cause that lowers the high price of the pros art. Yet they are ALL socialists and are actually creating FREE posters for the occupiers! WTH????? It's the good for you guys but don't hurt me mentality that is total BS.

So, to the point of this thread, NO additional regulations, let the market and demand work, keep the gov outta my pastures and I'll take care of my own business and to heck with those who don't.


----------



## SarahAnn

Bearkiller said:


> I prefer to keep my children innocent until they are old enough to understand and make their own decisions. There is ALOT of "art" (including music) that has no business being seen (or heard) by children. Ever. For a parent (?) to say they won't "take that away from" them is, quite frankly, one of the dumbest thing's I've ever read. I'm not talking about adult children. I have a 6 and an 8 year old. Not that it would matter.


By only allowing your children to hear the music that you deem "acceptable" is hiding other music from them. Granted they're young now, but what happens when they decide that they're going to sneak around and listen to what you deem as "unacceptable?" Then you have NO IDEA WHAT they're listening to, whether it be Taylor Swift or Eminem. And you no longer have the ability to pick up your cues as a parent and have a conversation, because they're doing it behind your back. THEN what happens when they get away with being sneaky and listening to the music they like? Well since they got away with that, they might decide to be sneaky and get away with other things. 

And "quite frankly" I'm not offended in the least that you think I'm dumb. Nothing like calling the kettle black.


----------



## demonwolfmoon

Bearkiller said:


> I clearly said our culture, not just BYB. And yes I can elaborate. Look at the occupy wall street movement. They are the perfect example of what I said about our culture. They want something for nothing. I agree with the idea that the system is broken but it's not the people on wall street who broke it. It's the people in Washington regulating our lives away.


Ah, so you are cherry picking here and ignoring my issue with what yous aid.
You are equating the "Occupy Wall Street" people with "city", and that is your example, ignoring the fact that there are plenty of us that are not stupid and not demanding the government "fix our problems".

Nothing is stopping "county people" from voting or participating in the government.

*It seems that you are completely deflecting the argument and my problem with your statement that "city people are stupid" *(to paraphrase). You are using another hot button issue, The Occupy Wall Street issue, to do so. It is a cheap deflection, and I am not falling for it.

As others have pointed out, there is plenty of stupid to go around, city and country. I have examples, as do many of us, of the stupid that can come out of "country" folk....I won't go there though, as there are at least an equal number of stupidities coming out of the city. But I will go ahead and say that many of the "excess" horses (for the slaughter argument, aka, the topic of this thread) are not coming from the city centers. 

AND I will go ahead and argue that *clearly it's not just city folks who are romanticizing horses and got horse slaughter banned.* Sure, they may be blinded by visions of My Little Pony and Flicka or whatever, *but* clearly there are actual HORSE OWNERS and BREEDERS lobbying against the re-allowance of slaughter as well. It might not seem really evident from this thread but....skim Facebook, you'll see what I mean.


----------



## Bearkiller

SarahAnn said:


> By only allowing your children to hear the music that you deem "acceptable" is hiding other music from them. Granted they're young now, but what happens when they decide that they're going to sneak around and listen to what you deem as "unacceptable?" Then you have NO IDEA WHAT they're listening to, whether it be Taylor Swift or Eminem. And you no longer have the ability to pick up your cues as a parent and have a conversation, because they're doing it behind your back. THEN what happens when they get away with being sneaky and listening to the music they like? Well since they got away with that, they might decide to be sneaky and get away with other things.
> 
> And "quite frankly" I'm not offended in the least that you think I'm dumb. Nothing like calling the kettle black.


 
I didn't say you were dumb. I said your comment was dumb. Huge difference. Even the smartest people say dumb things 


Letting your kids do whatever they want just because they'll do it anyway isn't parenting at all. BTW, the whole point in keeping them innocent is so they don't want to listen to that junk. I didn't say I am going to forbid them from ever listening to stuff I don't like. The garbage just doesn't need to be pounded into their heads from the begining.


----------



## Bearkiller

Bearkiller said:


> I agree that there are stupid people everywhere. But there aren't enough of these backwoods hillbilly's to make stupid laws. The stupid laws are coming from population centers that have thrived on welfare (all types not just food stamps) for decades.


 

Look at what I said^^^^^^^




demonwolfmoon said:


> Ah, so you are cherry picking here and ignoring my issue with what yous aid.
> You are equating the "Occupy Wall Street" people with "city", and that is your example, ignoring the fact that there are plenty of us that are not stupid and not demanding the government "fix our problems".
> 
> Nothing is stopping "county people" from voting or participating in the government.
> 
> *It seems that you are completely deflecting the argument and my problem with your statement that "city people are stupid" *(to paraphrase). You are using another hot button issue, The Occupy Wall Street issue, to do so. It is a cheap deflection, and I am not falling for it.
> 
> As others have pointed out, there is plenty of stupid to go around, city and country. I have examples, as do many of us, of the stupid that can come out of "country" folk....I won't go there though, as there are at least an equal number of stupidities coming out of the city. But I will go ahead and say that many of the "excess" horses (for the slaughter argument, aka, the topic of this thread) are not coming from the city centers.
> 
> AND I will go ahead and argue that *clearly it's not just city folks who are romanticizing horses and got horse slaughter banned.* Sure, they may be blinded by visions of My Little Pony and Flicka or whatever, *but* clearly there are actual HORSE OWNERS and BREEDERS lobbying against the re-allowance of slaughter as well. It might not seem really evident from this thread but....skim Facebook, you'll see what I mean.


----------



## SarahAnn

demonwolfmoon said:


> Sure, they may be blinded by visions of My Little Pony and Flicka or whatever, *but* clearly there are actual HORSE OWNERS and BREEDERS lobbying against the re-allowance of slaughter as well.


I don't know many people, country or city, that WOULDN'T have sent Flicka off to slaughter (or just left her in the wild where she belonged.) I mean really. That's a movie. In real life, no one keeps a dangerous wild Mustang for their inexperienced teenage daughter to ride.


----------



## SarahAnn

Bearkiller said:


> I didn't say you were dumb. I said your comment was dumb. Huge difference. Even the smartest people say dumb things
> 
> 
> Letting your kids do whatever they want just because they'll do it anyway isn't parenting at all. BTW, the whole point in keeping them innocent is so they don't want to listen to that junk. I didn't say I am going to forbid them from ever listening to stuff I don't like. The garbage just doesn't need to be pounded into their heads from the begining.


There is a major difference between "letting your kids do whatever they want" and letting you kids listen to music of all types. I pride myself in my parenting abilities, and I could care less if you agree with them or not. Really. 

I will not shelter my children, hide the world from them, or pretend that precautionless premarital sex doesn't exist. I would much rather hold their hand or walk beside them in their journey, then to have to bail them out in the end because they went in too deep with something behind my back while I was completely oblivious. You have to be real.


----------



## WSArabians

Bearkiller said:


> Unless you are buying the hay, why should it matter to you? I don't think wild horses ever get trimmed or wormed. It's alot harder to sell poorly cared for animals. So if they are not taking care of them it's a bad business decision.


Why does it bother me? Because I don't condone horse abuse.
Wild horses have the ability to migrate with the feed and their hooves naturally trimmed on terrian; they are not locked in a pen or paddock with no extra resouces when they exhaust the ones they have. 
I'm especially not okay with it if your "bad business decision" is making animals suffer for no other reason then the fact that you're an incompetent fool.
If you're okay driving past a farm of 60+ horses in bad shape, that's good for you. I'm not.


----------



## goneriding

SarahAnn said:


> Artists have been singing about repercussionless premarital sex for longer then Taylor Swift has been alive. Don't blame the music. The problem comes down to poor parenting, just like a misbehaved horse is the result of poor training and owner knowledge.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Parents aren't always to blame. Have you raised kids?


----------



## Skyseternalangel

You guys really got off topic from "horse slaughter" but I had to laugh my hindquarters off at the whole "sterilize the stupid people!" argument.

Who deems these people stupid?   Stupid as in ignorance or stupid as in stupid ways of thinking?

Blurred line

But I do think that using horse meat in dog food would be helpful since I read Cherie's post of horrors on what goes into dog food and if it helps get people more jobs, it makes dogs happy, and it lowers the cost, why not?
Now will it happen? Maybe


----------



## goneriding

I agree, it is getting off topic.


----------



## Red Gate Farm

I'm wondering if the reopening of the plants will be by foreign investors again, or if it will be by Americans, hiring Americans and regulated by Americans to help ensure they are run according to the wishes of American people? 

and also to keep the money for the benefit of the American people.


----------



## Whisper22

SarahAnn said:


> By only allowing your children to hear the music that you deem "acceptable" is hiding other music from them. Granted they're young now, but what happens when they decide that they're going to sneak around and listen to what you deem as "unacceptable?" Then you have NO IDEA WHAT they're listening to, whether it be Taylor Swift or Eminem. And you no longer have the ability to pick up your cues as a parent and have a conversation, because they're doing it behind your back. THEN what happens when they get away with being sneaky and listening to the music they like? Well since they got away with that, they might decide to be sneaky and get away with other things.
> 
> And "quite frankly" I'm not offended in the least that you think I'm dumb. Nothing like calling the kettle black.


I'm not quite sure how this thread ended up on this topic, as I havn't read the last few pages, but I just have to say you are greatly missing the point of parenting. That is not to say that you are a bad mother, we all make mistakes, I know I make plenty.

There are many many things we will never be able to stop our children from hearing or seeing that we as parents do not deem acceptable. These things come up out of our presence and out of our control. The point as a parent is that when it is in our presence and in our control, we raise them in a way that they shouldn't WANT to listen or watch those things because they know it is wrong and unacceptable. I do not believe in letting my 7 year old watch rated R movies and I believe the same filtering is needed for music as well. If you give them the freedom to run the show, well that's exactly what they'll do.


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## Alwaysbehind

SarahAnn said:


> And just like a gun, you can just hide your horse under your bed so no one knows you have one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most people do not hide their unlicensed dogs.
And since these courses you want to implement are only required for people breeding I am guessing no one is going to go around and check for testicles and then ask for your course certification any more than they make sure dogs are licensed.


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## Bearkiller

WSArabians said:


> Why does it bother me? Because I don't condone horse abuse.
> Wild horses have the ability to migrate with the feed and their hooves naturally trimmed on terrian; they are not locked in a pen or paddock with no extra resouces when they exhaust the ones they have.
> I'm especially not okay with it if your "bad business decision" is making animals suffer for no other reason then the fact that you're an incompetent fool.
> If you're okay driving past a farm of 60+ horses in bad shape, that's good for you. I'm not.


 
I'm not aware of any farms like that around here so I guess it doesn't quite apply to me. Just out of curiosity, how do you know they aren't trimmed or wormed if all you're doing is driving by? Sounds to me more like a hypothetical situation as opposed to an actual situation. But I guess you win, let's have the federal government issue licenses for owning stallions. Next we can have them tell us how many kids WE can have. Maybe we can then reach china's number of 13,000,000 abortions a year because that's an admirable goal. :?


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## Skyseternalangel

Red Gate Farm said:


> I'm wondering if the reopening of the plants will be by foreign investors again, or if it will be by Americans, hiring Americans and regulated by Americans to help ensure they are run according to the wishes of American people?
> 
> and also to keep the money for the benefit of the American people.


Well that's another sensitive argument all together.. but I hope that everyone that needs a job can have the benefit of applying and getting a job. 

My views are the same, I view my horse as the best friend I have ever had, the best mentor, the best hoodlum. But I would rather send him to be food for a family than bury him in the ground. It's kind of like donating a person's body to science rather than burying him. It's a choice, kind of like when it's a horse's time.. you can euthanize or shoot or send to the slaughter house.

I like that we have so many choices, to cater so many different people with so many different views.

And one thing won't change, however, is I'll continue to respect and love my horse throughout the whole process.

And the most beautiful thing about this? It's my own opinion. It can't be wrong, it can't be right.. no one makes it for me, it's just mine


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## SarahAnn

goneriding said:


> Parents aren't always to blame. Have you raised kids?


I am in the process of raising my own child. I also, at the age of 18 took on 3 younger brothers because my biological mother is a moron and cant raise a child properly to save her life. She's still a 15 year old at heart trying to raise her children as their friend. Partying with them and such... 

So after my oldest younger brother got kicked out of his middle school permanently and was facing drug charges at 14, I took him and my 2 other younger brothers into my home. NOW the oldest has completed college and is married and starting a family of his own, and is very successful thus far in his life. My other 2 brothers are in high school, high honors, star athletes, mentors, and will go on to do great things with their lives. 

So I have been raising my brothers, and correcting all the crap that my mother drilled into them for 9 years now, and my own daughter is almost 3. 


Maybe you're right, parenting isn't always to blame. But IMO signs of bad behavior start young, and if corrected properly, can be avoided in the future.


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## WSArabians

Red Gate Farm said:


> I'm wondering if the reopening of the plants will be by foreign investors again, or if it will be by Americans, hiring Americans and regulated by Americans to help ensure they are run according to the wishes of American people?
> 
> and also to keep the money for the benefit of the American people.


Is anything in America owned by Americans anymore? :-|


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## goneriding

WSArabians said:


> Is anything in America owned by Americans anymore? :-|


Yeah, I chuckled reading Reds post. It is a nice thought though. It should be that way.


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## WSArabians

Bearkiller said:


> I'm not aware of any farms like that around here so I guess it doesn't quite apply to me. Just out of curiosity, how do you know they aren't trimmed or wormed if all you're doing is driving by? Sounds to me more like a hypothetical situation as opposed to an actual situation. But I guess you win, let's have the federal government issue licenses for owning stallions. Next we can have them tell us how many kids WE can have. Maybe we can then reach china's number of 13,000,000 abortions a year because that's an admirable goal. :?


I'm talking about these farms where seizes and rescues are taking place all over. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out these horses are not being maintained, and I won't make excuses for them. 
You're obviously confused bevause I didn't bring up the idea of licensing, and argued why it would not work. I said, if you cared to actually read, that you cannot govern who can and cannot own horses and/or stallions, and it would be a cold day in h*ll when someone tried. 
So, carry on..


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## WSArabians

goneriding said:


> Yeah, I chuckled reading Reds post. It is a nice thought though. It should be that way.


Absolutely it should. Unfortantely I think China is going to have America by the proverbial balls, if they don't already. And Canada will go with her. But that is a whole other subject.


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## FlyGap

Read this, sounds like it will be American owned... but who knows.

Horses could soon be slaughtered for meat in US - Yahoo! News


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## Bearkiller

On an article I read, it looked like it/they would be american owned.


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## Gremmy

Well Bearkiller, I initially got my hackles up at your post about city folk and common sense, being a city dweller myself. But you do have a good point. By population density alone we have a high number of idiots per square foot. We also have an environment where people are to a fairly high extent, detached from what many of us could consider reality. Here in tree hugging Vancouver, if you want go be vegan, only buy "cruelty free" products, adopt from no-kill shelters and only buy from vegan stores and restaurants, it's entirely possible. You can also go buy your meat from walmart and assume your parents took your 16 year old dog to live out in the country. Here there are probably more people who haven't even seen a horse than those who have, and those who can afford to own and board often have only scratched the surface of what there is to know. You push the anti slaughter agenda here (or the issues surrounding feral horses, or PETA's various positions on rodeo, racing, etc...), and yes, you'll get a large negative response, coming from people whose experiences with horses are more than likely limited to seeing Hidalgo in the theatres.

I'm not sure if it can be entirely blamed on a lack of common sense, but rather just a lack of exposure to some harsh realities (and no desire to face them). In the years I've lived here we've moaned about the harsh realities we are exposed to, like the city's homeless, but more often than not the demands are all about pressuring the government to throw money at it to fix it. There seems to be a general attitude of wanting to just have someone else make the upsetting things go away.

I dunno, perhaps it is a bit off topic, but the way I see it this is the can of worms that is opened when you broach a topic like horse slaughter. It goes to show how much of a gray area it is.


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## demonwolfmoon

Gremmy said:


> By population density alone we have a high number of idiots per square foot.


This is true. But only because they are condensed in the city due to ("possible", in this economy) proximity to work. That being said...a lot of the minor country stuff I've seen where I live include:
1) Not de-worming a foal they got in PAYMENT from someone who couldn't pay, because she is "less than six months, so you don't have to".

2) 10 + horses with a shed with a roof in a turn out pen knee deep in sh*^ and mud...literally. Horses were also wormed questionably (see above) and vaccinations also questionable.

3) Refusal to spay or neuter cats despite it being FREE. Refusal from one person to go get a kitten with a hernia the size of a BASEBALL vet care because they "couldn't see spending...on a cat". Their other cat had three young kittens, and did I want them, "all the others died"?

This is just recent matters concerning animals, there's a lot more, plus again, there's a lot of idiots in the city too...but...I'm not sure it's part of the "culture" to be stupid if you live in the city. Or maybe it depends where you are, and your decision to *educate yourself. *

@ Bearkiller, I know your *opinion* on upper education, so I added that qualifier.



Gremmy said:


> Here in tree hugging Vancouver, if you want go be vegan, only buy "cruelty free" products, adopt from no-kill shelters and only buy from vegan stores and restaurants, it's entirely possible.


I think this is true in a lot of major cities, though not necessarily without any flak from others.  I have known a lot of vegetarians/vegans, and people who are very strongly "cruelty free". I also have known a lot of Buddhists, and as far as I know the shelters in my home town are no-kill. The qualifier being, they do make sure the animals are behaviorally sound. I don't imagine that bitey dogs stay at the nice, no kill shelter. 



Gremmy said:


> *I'm not sure if it can be entirely blamed on a lack of common sense, but rather just a lack of exposure to some harsh realities (and no desire to face them). *


The word for this is ignorance, and it is only a dirty word if you choose to let it be. The answer is education, assuming the person is willing to listen.

I firmly believe that if you can't kill it at least once, you really shouldn't be eating it. I have stated that on the vegetarian thread. It is one of the reasons that I seldom eat meat. I do not, however, align myself with PETA or any of the other agenda-laden (and BS in my mind) "animal rights groups", nor will I condemn others for eating meat when I myself choose not to. 
All my pets are sterilized. I rescue animals. I think the government is full of $%^& and we the people have a RESPONSIBILITY to ourselves under the declaration of independence to change things when the government is no longer working for us. Oh,and I do vaccinate my children....

(Am I sounding like a "typical" Occupy Wallstreet, stupid city-dweller yet?)

*It's all about ignorance and choice: it's only stupidity when you make the solid choice to maintain your ignorance instead of weighing the facts and making a SOUND decision regarding matters and your beliefs. *I cannot and will not say that city people are, as a generality, "stupider" than country folk...that is simply not true.

Stupid is, as stupid does, right? 

*PS: I strongly advocate the sterilization of pets to all my friends and acquaintances, along with many other less popular "goods". I try to inform people, or at least ...pique their curiosity so they can do the research themselves.*


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## Gremmy

Apologies ahead of time if I haven't followed your post correctly DWM,

By no means do I excuse ignorance, I think a huge part of the problem is that many people will hear the one side of the story "OMG they's killing horses!", react, sign a petition or relay the same biased information to some friends, and move on with their day. I wasn't trying to infer that city populations are stupid as a rule (lord knows I don't want to be painted with that brush), simply that you've got people motivated to learn and make knowledgeable decisions, and you've got "sheep", as Bearkiller put it. The ratio seems to stay the same, but in a denser population, you're just gonna have more of both.

It's hard to explain the sense of detachment you can have from living in the city, I'm sure you understand what I mean; not that choosing a vegan lifestyle or a no kill shelter are in any way wrong, just that it is much easier to live with a sort of tunnel vision, I suppose. In regards to the topic at hand, that could equate to the assumption that what works for you will work for everybody. Take the bitey dog for instance, here we have a plethora of dog trainers, doggy psychiatrists, doggy day cares, personal dog walkers, you name it; with more choices available it appears to be easier to sidestep the task of educating oneself. Once again, I saw plenty of stupidity in all forms in the small Alberta town I spent my childhood in, but the resources here sure make it easier to get by with that stupidity.

Without going on about it too long, I agree that city populations shouldn't be labelled as stupid, and ignorance is just as rampant as in the less populated areas - but to the outside eye, I can see why it is often viewed that way.

As a business student, I know it's no coincidence that PETA spends a lot of energy spreading their word around large metropolitan areas, and especially that their "word" often involves condemning practices that many people in cities are more likely to be ignorant about. Simple marketing really, it's safe to assume that most city dwellers do not compete in rodeo events for example, and that there is likely a good chunk who hardly know what a rodeo is. You'll likely have a portion who do not compete in rodeos, but might attend a large one outside of town for fun, and of that portion will be some who are still ignorant enough to buy into the idea that they have been witnessing acts of cruelty. PETA knows this all too well.

I'm not saying that they are not active outside of cities, of course not, but as a rule, the goal of marketing is to target as many people as possible in an efficient manner - that is to direct it towards those most likely to buy into the idea, and do it cheaply and effectively. Without putting marketing entirely in a negative view, you could consider it "preying on ignorance".

I'm definitely big on promoting discussion, stirring enough interest to encourage people to educate themselves. I've had great talks with people on this very topic, who aren't into horses but read a biased article and based their opinion on that without knowing both sides. It's an odd phenomenon that many people feel the need to form an instant position on a subject, even if they're not educated on it whatsoever. That in the end is my point (I think) - You've got a city, a dense population full of all sorts of people all ignorant in their own ways, but if you for instance throw a few PETA representatives in front of the art gallery with some pamphlets on the horrors of horse slaughter, you'll get a good portion of people who will take the pamphlet, talk to the reps, and form an opinion on the spot even if they can't tell the difference between a horse and a giraffe - AND, you can assume that you are going to get more people forming these instant opinions in a dense population than say, Baffin Island.

Ultimately I try to do my part in helping people see both sides of the coin, but I find that often the ones who like to form instant opinions tend to leave it at that, and don't actively seek out more information, often not seeing the other side of the argument until they run into someone who does - just like how this thread got started. Educate thyself and then make a decision, I value that, but unfortunately many do not.


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## Bearkiller

demonwolfmoon said:


> Or maybe it depends where you are, and your decision to *educate yourself. *
> 
> @ Bearkiller, I know your *opinion* on upper education, so I added that qualifier.


 
I know you hate me because I don't believe in evolution but you really shouldn't put words into my mouth. I think ALL forms of public education are agenda driven and mostly incompetent. I didn't mean to make you think that I approved of lower education. It goes back to the government debate. They have no business in education. BTW, my wife is a teacher. I know first hand the sorry job that public education does in teaching children. I personally spend alot of money to send my kids to the best school in the area that I live. I also spend alot in taxes to educate other peoples children. It's absurd. As far as the horse slaughter debate goes, I think Gremmy nailed it. Probably better than I could have. I grew up just south of Seattle and all of my family is still there. I know all about the people in that part of the world.


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## FlyGap

Very well said Gremmy!

I've lived in the city, country, abroad, work in a VERY liberal industry, and I live in the wilderness now. So I feel like I have a pretty good perspective on the way different societies work. I don't feel like generalizations are a terrible way of getting a point across, because they "generally" are the rule. When I have my city folk out they freak when they find that I stay out here in the middle of nowhere, hike alone in the forest, stay by myself most of the time, and leave the house only once every two weeks. They couldn't handle it, nor could they handle grabbing a chicken by the head and cracking it's neck. But when the closest market is over 55 miles away on crooked mountain roads a quick burger is out of the question. That chicken only cost me $2 to feed my family and if I'd driven to the store and bought it I'd have to pay over $50 in gas and the bird.

So as a general rule city people do not "GET" what it is to have to kill an animal because it's meat, not some purdy pet, the money and animal is wasted if you just put it down. They also don't understand how other cultures would GLADLY have Mr. Ed in the larder instead of running free wild and living out his days happy and fat or wasting away when he is suffering and old. It's a waste, just like any other animal. 

Now just the other day a local man was convicted of animal cruelty when his horses got out and he lassoed one and DRAGGED it home with an ATV. Said he sped up to get the horse to stand up because it layed down on him. The police had to euth the horse it was so torn up. Now THAT is also STUPIDITY in the country "*******" population. But you won't find a bunch of stupid country people signing their rights away and letting the gov tell them what they can and cannot do with their lives and livings. There is the difference, that man was not ignorant as to his actions, he was stupid. Thinking that the gov imposing upon our lives is a good thing because it directly lines our pockets or prevents a "crisis" is stupid and selfish.

@ Bearkiller I 100% support you on the gov/school thing, ours go to private where they are taught FACTS not FEELINGS and AGENDAS. It pains me to no end knowing that I'm paying double and supporting that crud. 

I've always wished I was more ignorant, "stupid", it's bliss!  But not an excuse.


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## demonwolfmoon

@ bearkiller: I don't "hate" you: I think you're a stubborn old cuss too stuck in his ways to consider that he might be wrong.

As a generality the school systems in the US are somewhat subpar. I have a 4th grader who should be in gifted but isn't, either because its gone or the teachers simply don't care. I asked about this constantly for more than two years of being shunted to the next sacrificial lamb for me to bug... I'd send her back to private school but I can't afford it right now. I may end up homeschooling.

Anyway in the other thread YOU saId, Bearkiller, that college was indoctrination/ brainwashing and useless. I'm not the only one who disagreed. And if you're gullible enough to believe everything a teacher says without your own research, then you (the student) deserve to be called an idiot. 
I am no idiot. I am city born and raIsed. We hbave hatched, bred and eaten our own chicken and quail. Would like to say that I have at least once in my life, I would like to kill butcher and taste my own deer... Not yet but soon. 

I guess according to you alls generality , I'm what? An exceptional city person? Well if you feel that you own the keys to human common sense, by all means TEACH US. What good does it do to hoard knowledge? Turn my argument (the one where I make the call for self education lol) and SHOW some ignorant city people the harsh facts of nature!

Stuff dies, nature is cruel, animals eat meat , we are omnivores, grocery market food in bloodless plastic package comes from a fuzzy cow/goat/pig/horse. Share what you know and maybe we'll have less PETA members 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlyGap

Ha! 

I'm generalized allll the time when I tell people I'm from AR. They are shocked that I have all my teeth, wear shoes, can speak eloquently, and am not inbred! I guess I'm an exception to the rule also!

We also bring over 45,000 people into the state every year and they are shocked to find that baptists/Christians can throw down with the best of them! We are not all a bunch of hypocritical stiff necks. Trust me, I'm working on it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bearkiller

I'm not old at all. I may however be stubborn. If you want to butcher a deer, have someone show you. I've done all of my cutting and wrapping myself for the most part and it doesn't phase me. I think they were put here for our use.


As for as your gifted 4th grader, that's exactly my point. That's why I have 2 kids in private school at 600 dollars a month. I'm not rich at all and I can assure you, I'd have alot nicer saddles and horse trailers ect,if I didn't choose to pay for their quality education. But I don't mine sacrificing my earthly desires to hopefully give my kids a better life. You have to admit, even if not on this board, at least to your self, that most young adults are like sheep. Very few have the ability to think for themselves. Colleges feed that. Is it every person? No. Is it every college? No. Is it a good number of both? Absolutely. I am going to houston for the next week on Monday and will be hunting all weekend so I probably won't be back on for a while. The only reason I am saying that is I don't want you thinking you scared me off. haha


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## Skyseternalangel

Guys, your past few posts have had little to nothing about this horse slaughter topic. Next time take it to private messaging? Going to unsubscribe from this thread as the constant replies leading to off topic posts isn't cool with me.


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## Celeste

As far as public school trying to indoctrinate kids into becoming brainwashed clones and atheists, that sounds like a crock. Teachers are real people just like everybody else. One of the top Georgia state standards in science education is that the teacher will instill in the students a healthy skepticism of materials they are presented with. I once gave one of my college biology students extra credit for disagreeing with the text book because he had a really good argument. I teach my students that they should NOT believe anything just because I say it. They should form their own opinion based on evidence.

As to horse slaughter, there are obviously two sides to it. From my point of view, I am seriously concerned about horse theft if the price of horses goes up. I have a mare that I payed a tremendous amount of money for, at least in my modest budget. There is no way that I can get my money back, but I don't want to sell her anyway. When there was a slaughter plant 100 miles away, there were many stolen horses. 

The only reason that I believe that people want horse slaughter is that they want a way to make a profit on horses that don't work out for them. If money were not involved, they would simply euthanize their horse when necessary. Horse abuse and neglect has gone on long before the slaughter plants closed down. If we are concerned about wasted meat, why do we euthanize and throw away millions of unwanted cats and dogs every year. They could be used for food just like the horses. The total weight of meat that is destroyed is way more for sweet little puppies and kittens........


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## Ray MacDonald

I agree.. It's just getting off topic and heated. We should probably get this thread closed... Told you it never ends well :/


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## Ray MacDonald

For some reason I can't LIKE your post Celeste... So, I LIKE your post


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## SarahAnn

Celeste said:


> As far as public school trying to indoctrinate kids into becoming brainwashed clones and atheists, that sounds like a crock. Teachers are real people just like everybody else. One of the top Georgia state standards in science education is that the teacher will instill in the students a healthy skepticism of materials they are presented with. I once gave one of my college biology students extra credit for disagreeing with the text book because he had a really good argument. I teach my students that they should NOT believe anything just because I say it. They should form their own opinion based on evidence.


Couldn't agree more. The woman that took me in and became my legal guardian was first my teacher. She is a feminist, vegan and a member of PETA, who has very strong beliefs. She doesn't try to "brainwash" her students, and she didn't try to brainwash me even though I was living under her roof for 6 years before I left for college. Teachers are just people with a job to do, they do their best to teach you what's outlined in a curriculum, make sure you follow the rules, and MAYBE if your parents were lucky they'd teach you some manners... they aren't trying to "brainwash" their students. Believe me, if their job was to "brainwash" you, they'd make a hell of a lot more money.


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## Ray MacDonald

My Aunt and Sister are teachers  They don't get paid enough for what they have to actually do, all the little extras to help give the kids as much education as well as enough personal one on one time with them.

Personally... I think NOT going to college is the STUPIDIST thing I have heard. What job can you get with a high school diploma? Work at McDonalds? Sorry, but I would rather be "brainwashed" than work at McDonalds...


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## wyominggrandma

Umm, how is this related to horse slaughter anymore?


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## demonwolfmoon

Bearkiller said:


> I'm not old at all. I may however be stubborn. If you want to butcher a deer, have someone show you. I've done all of my cutting and wrapping myself for the most part and it doesn't phase me. I think they were put here for our use.
> 
> You have to admit, even if not on this board, at least to your self, that most young adults are like sheep. Very few have the ability to think for themselves.


Lol @ Bearkiller. I do agree with you on some things. =) I go to college to make a better life for my kids...and I see a lot of the kids that you're talking about...they're young, and they're silly. It's up to them to make something of themselves, same as it was up to us to some extent. Do I think that kids are lil less responsible now than I was? Well yeah...but in some ways...isn't that our responsibility as parents? Same with teaching kids respect for life (going back to the thread, see?)

*I disagree that we went FULLY off topic.* I believe that we went on a tangent. Tangents aren't necessarily bad. We now know what some of us (maybe not all) believe is the CAUSE of people who want to permanently ban slaughter. Now then the issue is, how do we solve the problem? 

It may not be as easy as saying:
1) The number of horses slaughtered yearly in the US (before) was:
2) The number of horses now shipped to Mexico is:
3) The number of horse abuse cases since ban:
4) Percent increase in horse abuse cases since ban:
5) reasons why cows and horses have similar mental/emotional capabilities
6) technical aspects of horse meat vs cow: (in simple terms, horse is more lean, cow tends to be more tender, idk, just an example)
7) This is how cows are put down:

whats the difference?

I mean facts like whats in dog food, who wants to eat horse, how the Euthanasia drugs affect groundwater, what kind of damage the drugs do to our clean water and the animals...

...It may not be as easy as saying all that....but I think it would help:

_I think that pictures of all that and good hard numbers, all in one* cohesive *package would sway some people who did not know anything about ANIMAL SLAUGHTER than what they were told by activists._


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