# Double Registered??



## redfox122194 (Jul 5, 2012)

I have a mare that is registered as a paint, but she dosent look like one. Her mom was a quarter horse, and her dad was a paint. I was wondering if I could be able to double register her as a quarter horse as well. :-|


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Both parents have to be registered with AQHA for the resulting foal to be registered with AQHA.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Im guessing she is registered as a breeding stock paint. Not eligable for AQHA as started; they need to be purebred. 
I have three Arabians mares pending their pinto registration. I cant think if there is anything she may fit into.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Your mare is 75% QH. I looked her up on allbreedpedigree. Her sire can't be double registered as AQHA because he's a tobiano. Tobiano doesn't exist in Quarter Horses; however, all of the "overo" genes do, hence double registration. 

Double registration comes from when the AQHA had their white rule that banished all horses with what they considered "excessive white" to the APHA. However, the APHA changed their mind after a while and said that at least one parent had to be APHA, but still allows outcrossing to TB and QH. At that point, the AQHA allowed the horses that are actually AQHA horses registered as APHA to go back and be registered as QHs. 

However, some Paints either don't inherit a white gene from their parents or just don't express it enough to receive full papers and are registered as Solid Paint-Breds.


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## redfox122194 (Jul 5, 2012)

thanks that really helped. It was more of a question, of if it could be possible if anything. Thanks again!!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

With the tobiano, no, her sire couldn't be double registered, so she can't either.


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## redfox122194 (Jul 5, 2012)

im wondering what makes her 75% Quarter Horse?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Watch Me Reign Paint

Her dam is AQHA and her sire's dam is AQHA. 3/4th = 75%. I don't know just by glancing what her Foundation QH percentage is, but I could figure that out tomorrow if you'd like.

ETA: Actually, glancing again, she is actually 87.5% if the information on Allbreed is correct because her sire's sire is half QH.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> Watch Me Reign Paint
> 
> Her dam is AQHA and her sire's dam is AQHA. 3/4th = 75%. I don't know just by glancing what her Foundation QH percentage is, but I could figure that out tomorrow if you'd like.
> 
> ETA: Actually, glancing again, she is actually 87.5% if the information on Allbreed is correct because her sire's sire is half QH.


It seems silly to me that a horse that is 87.5% AQHA and 12.5% very-closely-related-to-AQHA (aka Paint) couldn't be registered AQHA. Too bad it's not up to me :lol:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Like I said on the other thread, it is because tobiano never was and never will be acceptable in the AQHA.


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

I wouldn't even worry about it much unless you had this top dollar show horse that you were just aching to show in both registries. Even that is silly to me. I think the double registration horses are done with the idea that it makes them easier to promote or makes a stud more desireable. I personally think you should have the whole package. 

Isn't CCH's Navajo double registered APHA and AQHA? He is a good example of the whole package.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Actually, going back through the pedigree, the only Paint comes from White Cloud, 5 generations back. That means the OP's horse is 96.875% quarter horse.

If AQHA wants to keep tobianos out of their registry, that's one thing. There is a genetic test for tobiano, but I bet even a negative test still wouldn't allow that horse to be registered AQHA even though that's what she is for all intents and purposes.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

What? No. Just no. I don't know how you were reading the pedigree, but even if we assume the op's horse's sire was solid, the sire's sire WAS/IS a tobi... so no, the only paint is not "five generations back."


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

ThirteenAcres said:


> I wouldn't even worry about it much unless you had this top dollar show horse that you were just aching to show in both registries. Even that is silly to me. I think the double registration horses are done with the idea that it makes them easier to promote or makes a stud more desireable. I personally think you should have the whole package.
> 
> Isn't CCH's Navajo double registered APHA and AQHA? He is a good example of the whole package.


Eh, two of the three mares being Pinto registered I won't be showing, nor are they for sale. 
The other I would LOVE to show on the pinto circuit. I think she'd kick a$$.  

It's all preference. Canada even has a Canadian Livestock (something or other) you can register your horse with. It's not a registry, just more of tracking of heritage, if he gets stolen, etc. It's legal, but not per breed. There's no DNA testing or anything confirmed, just a piece of paper with a picture and description of your horse. 
If you have a grade, this would be neat - just as proof of ownership if nothing else.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

verona1016 said:


> Actually, going back through the pedigree, the only Paint comes from White Cloud, 5 generations back. That means the OP's horse is 96.875% quarter horse.
> 
> If AQHA wants to keep tobianos out of their registry, that's one thing. There is a genetic test for tobiano, but I bet even a negative test still wouldn't allow that horse to be registered AQHA even though that's what she is for all intents and purposes.


American Quarter Horses and American Paint Horses are two _different_ breeds. The QH was created through breeding stockier TBs down into what we now know as a Quarter Horse. Paint Horses are descended from Spanish herds brought over by explorers. Yes, the two breeds have merged quite a bit, but tobiano will NEVER exist in Quarter Horses. It is not part of the breed. Just as cream will never exist in Arabs and dun will never exist in Thoroughbreds. They are separate breeds and will be that way. The only reason they are merged is because the AQHA valued solid colored horses, so when random, loud colored babies were being produced, they were entirely frowned upon and choose to basically shun them. 

And based on your logic, the AQHA registered horses that are actually nearly completely Thoroughbred should be registered with the Jockey Club. Horses like Indian Artifacts that are only 1/4th Quarter Horse. 

Also, Verona, if what you were saying was true, I would also own an APHA/AQHA horse. I have a solid Paint bred that is 89% Foundation Quarter Horse. There is ONE line of tobiano on my mare's pedigree that would keep her from being AQHA also. Her APHA dam is linebred Skipper W and Sonny Dee Bar, both of which are known to carry white patterns and produce loud foals. 

And, for the record, Redfox, your mare is about 78% Foundation Quarter Horse.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> What? No. Just no. I don't know how you were reading the pedigree, but even if we assume the op's horse's sire was solid, the sire's sire WAS/IS a tobi... so no, the only paint is not "five generations back."


I guess I worded that wrong. White Cloud is the only 100% Paint horse in the pedigree. For the 5 generations since then, the "Paint" has been bred to a QH every time. Yes, the pinto coloring was passed on, but as the OP's horse is SPB we don't know if she actually carries the tobiano gene or not, but there is a test for it.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> American Quarter Horses and American Paint Horses are two _different_ breeds. The QH was created through breeding stockier TBs down into what we now know as a Quarter Horse. Paint Horses are descended from Spanish herds brought over by explorers.


Not entirely true. In fact, the percentage that a QH is "foundation bred" depends entirely on how much TB blood they don't have (at least in the past 10 generations, which for most horses predates the AQHA).

From the NFQHA: _
"The blood in the founding stock was a mixture of Barb, Thoroughbred, Mustang, Arab, draft horse, and a myriad of other blood....A horse must possess 80% Quarter Horse blood. It does not matter what generation the TB ancestors appear in as long as the combined total of TB blood does not exceed the allowable amount. In order to figure the TB percentage, the amount contributed by the first TB ancestor encountered on each line is added together to come up with the total Thoroughbred blood. "_

I went through the QH side of my horse's pedigree 10 generations back (well beyond when AQHA was founded in 1940), and came up with a BUNCH of unregistered (i.e. grade) horses and a smattering of other random breeds (mustang, appy, morgan, etc.) in addition to ~12% TB.

And I hate to cite Wikipedia, but APHA doesn't seem to share much about its original registered horses. 
"It was founded in 1965 with the merging of *two different color breed registries that had been formed to register pinto-colored horses of Quarter Horse bloodlines*. One of these organizations was the American Paint Quarter Horse Association (or APQHA) and the other was the American Paint Stock Horse Association (or APSHA)."


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> And based on your logic, the AQHA registered horses that are actually nearly completely Thoroughbred should be registered with the Jockey Club. Horses like Indian Artifacts that are only 1/4th Quarter Horse.


No, 25% QH is still pretty high. The TB breed has been established for a much longer time than the quarter horse breed, can be traced back to purebred lines for a lot longer, and doesn't have a "sister" registry so closely tied to it.



Poseidon said:


> Also, Verona, if what you were saying was true, I would also own an APHA/AQHA horse. I have a solid Paint bred that is 89% Foundation Quarter Horse. There is ONE line of tobiano on my mare's pedigree that would keep her from being AQHA also. Her APHA dam is linebred Skipper W and Sonny Dee Bar, both of which are known to carry white patterns and produce loud foals.


Like I said before, there is a genetic test for tobiano, and if AQHA wants to keep it out of their registry, more power to them. But if your horse doesn't carry it and is 89% foundation bred, then they're just fooling themselves saying your horse isn't a QH.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

I think a lot of folks believe that the registries' main focus was a lofty ideal of maintaining a 'purity' within the breeds, but to be honest the bottom line was creating a money making financial niche for breeders. If you look at the history of the AQHA ( American Quarter Horse Association - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and similarly the APHA, you'll see all the 'politics' involved. In the end, a group of breeders got together, picked a set of horses with traits they liked, and then (over time) 'defined' the breed around those horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

You know what, Verona? I'm done arguing with you. You have posted incorrect or just uninformed information all over this subforum and it's gotten old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I dont know, seems to me that Verona is basing her opinion on some pretty solid facts - AQHA.
Tobiano is a colour, not a breed, right?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Look, the Jockey Club, the AQHA, and the APHA are all intertwined. There are AQHA horses that are far more TB than QH, TBs that are double registered JC/APHA, and APHA horses that are heavily crossbred into AQHA lines.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It will never be as simple as testing to make sure that tobiano's do not get into the AQHA. ANY horse with tobiano ANYWHERE in it's linage is not nor ever will be accepted by the AQHA.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I would hardly be the one to state that AQHA horses are purebred. The foundation for them came from alot of different breeds. Like the Paint came from Quarter horses and were bred for that trait. 
But saying a paint does not have AQHA heritage seems odd to me based on the sole fact that AQHA does not recognize a COAT pattern. There was a time when Sabino Arabians were not elgiable for registration; not because they weren't purebred, but because of coat colour. I see the same thing with AQHA.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

The reasoning for the majority of the mixing is exactly the same as the sabino Arabs: The AQHA didn't like the excessive white, so they were automatically sent to the APHA, who, at the time, allowed it. So there you now have loud colored Quarter Horses registered as Paints and it took a while before the APHA said screw that and the AQHA was forced to keep them. However, the majority of the owners of those horses did not go back and re-register their crop outs as AQHA and left them as Paints. 

Then you get to horses like the OP's, who come from APHA lines, but did not inherit the white genes or just doesn't express them loud enough (and it's the APHA..they only care about how the horse looks, not it's actual genetic makeup). What if that horse is from crop out AQHA horses? Does that make it AQHA because it doesn't have a pattern? No. Only if the parents were double registered. Or like the OP's and it's mixed with AQHA and actual APHA tobianos. Then you are still left with a solid APHA horse that is separated into its own section.

Neither of the breeds are pure, so I suggest if you'd like a pure breed, you stick with your Arabs.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Drawing from your example, if you have offspring from two double registered APHA/AQHA horses, and you choose not to register with AQHA, it does not make that horse any less quarter horse IMO. It does, however, make it an _unpapered_ quarter horse.

Can you tell me what characteristics are different between the AQHA and APHA breed standard? When you look at a horse, what conformational traits identify it as a SPB instead of a QH?

The Jockey Club is more than 100 years old and is the American registry for thoroughbreds, which was a breed developed in the 17th and 18th century. It does not, and never has, accepted quarter horses or paint horses in its registry who were not also 100% TB with Jockey Club registered parents. The fact that APHA recognizes some purebred TBs as paint horses is neither here nor there.


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

verona1016 said:


> Drawing from your example, if you have offspring from two double registered APHA/AQHA horses, and you choose not to register with AQHA, it does not make that horse any less quarter horse IMO. It does, however, make it an _unpapered_ quarter horse.
> 
> Can you tell me what characteristics are different between the AQHA and APHA breed standard? When you look at a horse, what conformational traits identify it as a SPB instead of a QH?
> 
> The Jockey Club is more than 100 years old and is the American registry for thoroughbreds, which was a breed developed in the 17th and 18th century. It does not, and never has, accepted quarter horses or paint horses in its registry who were not also 100% TB with Jockey Club registered parents. The fact that APHA recognizes some purebred TBs as paint horses is neither here nor there.


Appendix Quarter Horses aren't usually accepted by the AQHA with full QH registration. They are an added in section of AQHA. A horse has to earn rights to full AQHA registration. 

The Appendix rules are shaky to me, but as only a first generation QH/TB cross are allowed, how can you say that the AQHA recognizes some /purebred/ TB horses?


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I didn't say AQHA recognizes purebred TB's (although historically they did make exceptions for Joe Reed #3 and Oklahoma Star #6).

I said APHA does- I admit, I took this fact from Poseidon's post and did not fact check it.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

^^^^ Beginning in 2005, the APHA required at least one APHA parent even if they (QH or TB) would have previously been eligible by meeting the color requirements, so QHxQH, QHxTB, and TBxTB cannot be registered with the APHA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

It is from the excess white rule. Not anything about overo or tobiano.
If the horse was AQHA x AQHA had to much white, and then got reg. as Paint
after DNA proof of the sire and dam that they are AQHA lines, then they can be double registered. must have the DNA.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Back in the day,, Paint,Pinto Appaloosa same with the buckskin and Palomino, were all color breeds, if the horse did NOT display the colored coat patterns they were not registered with that breed. Not all Paints were from AQHA. GO look at some of the horses in AQHA, there were Colored horses, names like Old Joe and Ole App and a few others. THEN the rules changed and a breed type was made, no color, and most were bull dog type horses and short, Then they allowed TB and allowed a horses to be Appendix bred. If you LOOK at any breed how they started and what they are NOW , the horses look totally different.


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

stevenson said:


> It is from the excess white rule. Not anything about overo or tobiano.
> If the horse was AQHA x AQHA had to much white, and then got reg. as Paint
> after DNA proof of the sire and dam that they are AQHA lines, then they can be double registered. must have the DNA.


I think what Ndappy is trying to relay is that even with proven AQHA lines, a tobiano is not ever going to be allowed in the AQHA even if DNA proven to be of QH lineage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## redfox122194 (Jul 5, 2012)

can we please not fight on here? All I wanted to know is if I could put her into AQHA as well. I will get her tested, but I would have been a little plus if I could, more of competitions and breeding.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Sorry, didn't mean to run away with your thread 

I think the answer is that no, AQHA will not let you double register, but for your own sake, you know that your horse is very heavily quarter horse bred.


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## redfox122194 (Jul 5, 2012)

thanks, She dosent look paint to me, except the way her nose is curved. lolz. Wish I could find a picture of her mom and dad.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

ThirteenAcres said:


> The Appendix rules are shaky to me, but as only a first generation QH/TB cross are allowed, how can you say that the AQHA recognizes some /purebred/ TB horses?


No, you can breed an Appendix QH to a full TB and it would still be registered as Appendix QH. Point in case: Indian Artifacts Quarter Horse 

I do apologize, Redfox, for hijacking your thread and it blowing into this.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

redfox122194 said:


> can we please not fight on here? All I wanted to know is if I could put her into AQHA as well. I will get her tested, but I would have been a little plus if I could, more of competitions and breeding.


 Sorry no,She will not be accepted to AQHA registry on the soul fact that the sire's paint lineage has cannot be traced back to a AQHAXAQHA cross. Most often it does in overo horseswhen you go back far enough,but rare in Tobiano lines which is what your horse has.EVEN if she did trace back, all those horses in that APHA line including her sire would have to have received their AQHA registration before your horse would be eligible.That entales getting breeding & owner records collected & signed all the way down the line it is a long & expensive process!! 
You'll just have to love her as a SPB APHA.:wink:


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