# Agouti Gene question



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Well to break it down to basics.

There are only two true colors in horses. Everything else is a modification of those two colors. Those two colors are Black (Ee or EE) and red (always ee).

Agouti is bay (A), brown (At) and wild bay (A+). Agouti causes black to be restricted to the points (ears, legs) of the horse. Every horse is different in how exactly agouti affects them. 


Cinny is black. He has no agouti (which would cause him to be one of the above. Cinny is a form of what is called "fading black" meaning that his black color gets burnt in the sun.

Hope this helps.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thank you, I think it does. So basically even though Cinny may look bay in the summer, he actually does not have that gene, he has just spent too much time in the son and genes have nothing to do with his summer look.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yep! Basically it's like people who spend a lot time outdoors and their hair is lighter as a result. His coat has the same thing going on.


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## thecolorquest (Nov 30, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Well to break it down to basics.
> 
> There are only two true colors in horses. Everything else is a modification of those two colors. Those two colors are Black (Ee or EE) and red (always ee).
> 
> ...


He looks black in the photos. SOME horses with At (Brown) do look black, but they will have the giveaway lighter muzzle, flanks and armpits. These are Seal brown. I would not suspect him of being seal since I see no traces of pangare (the light points). Other brown horses can look almost identical to bay (with the pangare). I once had a black TWH that faded almost to buckskin in the Texas sun. Black can be fading or non-fading, he's just a fading black. 

Marga


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

:wink: I know what brown looks like. There is quite a large discussion about "Bad *** Browns" here in the color section with many, _many_ examples. I, in no way, thought the OP's horse is brown. 

I brought up brown as she asked about agouti and brown of one the agouti modifiers. Leaving it out would make no sense.


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## thecolorquest (Nov 30, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> :wink: I know what brown looks like. There is quite a large discussion about "Bad *** Browns" here in the color section with many, _many_ examples. I, in no way, thought the OP's horse is brown.
> 
> I brought up brown as she asked about agouti and brown of one the agouti modifiers. Leaving it out would make no sense.


Which of these two horses is brown? One of them is tested EeAa, the other is E_Ata. 

http://www.shadowscastle.net/MM_Sonata_MR_2.jpg

They are in no way related, at all. Brown is one of those colors that has many shades, and if often confusing. The Jockey Club would NOT, for many decades, register a horse as black, since there were so many seal brown TBs. Brown was once though to be just black with Pangare markings, which is now confirmed not to be the case. 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE a black horse, but there are many seal horses still advertised as black! 

Marga


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

For one thing, I would _never_ guess color off that picture. Not when it comes to brown. Neither horse is picture well enough. 

I _know_ browns (bays and every other color under the sun) come in many different shades.

You are deluded if you do not think that brown and bay are related. Bay, brown, and wild bay are all forms of agouti that restrict black in different ways...


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I can tell you that about every fifth thread or so in this subforum is a discussion about the differences between bay and brown. If you look in those, you will see that both NdAppy and myself know what bay looks like and what brown looks like.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/badass-brown-92038/


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## thecolorquest (Nov 30, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> For one thing, I would _never_ guess color off that picture. Not when it comes to brown. Neither horse is picture well enough.
> 
> I _know_ browns (bays and every other color under the sun) come in many different shades.
> 
> You are deluded if you do not think that brown and bay are related. Bay, brown, and wild bay are all forms of agouti that restrict black in different ways...


LOL, I think you misread my post. The two horses are not related to each other. I know full well how agoutis are related... I happen to be an equine color genetics researcher. 

I think unfortunately this thread got derailed, and I apologise for stepping in and trying to help understand color genetics. 

Marga


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