# Accuracy of colour test?



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Definitely looks like a double dilute. What colour are mom and dad? Any chance you got the wrong hair?

Call the lab and see if they can retest?


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Can you show the test results?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Cover your identifying info and scan the results. It would help to see them.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Dam is buckskin Tobiano, sire palomino Tobiano. I have asked them to retest for the cream gene a second time. Here are the results, and a photo of Dam and sire. Let me know if you are able to see the test results.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Is there a possibility of some other dilute gene being there that was not tested for like champagne? Sometimes amber champagne can look like buckskin, was your mare tested to be buckskin?


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

This mare here is genetically one cream and one champagne gene with her perlino colt. Your colt could be similar to the mare. They are born with ice blue eyes a lot of the times and darken a bit as adults.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

What breed? They look like sport horses, those breeds don't tend to carry champagne or pearl...

Some kind of chimearism? If the white patches along the mane were chimearic, we wouldn't be able to see the difference.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Apuetso I was thinking along the same lines. 



Mom doesn't quite look Buckskin which would mean baby is correct genetically but with that skin? I am leaning champagne at this point because the skin in pics looks more apricot.. In some pics mare looks like sun or sweat fade and others just not dilute enough for buckskin but lighter than typical for bay.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'd ask them to retest, on a fresh sample if necessary.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Okay, so as said above, they are sporthorses (German warmblood, stationbred sporthorses) and I imagine it would be unlikely for them to carry pearl or champagne. Stallion is tested as palomino, so he's not going to be carrying anything else or he'd be even lighter. Mare isn't tested, but her sire was Buckskin..... Or advertised as buckskin, and certainly looked to be, and I would have thought with all his offspring someone would have picked up on it if he was Champagne. Her dam was a bay clydie X tb. I'll ask the stud if her sire was actually tested, but I'd be surprised if something like that did pop up. My mare is very buckskin looking to me, if quite a golden buckskin. I'll attach a couple more photos, and let you all know what I find out. Photo of him first born, as you can see he was a bit darker back then. Others are of my mare. Lab is re testing for cream just to make sure there wasn't a muck up.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Maybe the sire isn't who you think it is ...


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Even if the parents aren't what they say, that's a very dilute looking baby for a buckskin result.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Yes I agree he's way too dilute, I'd bet on it that there is more going on than just a plain buckskin. I bred him by AI, was all done very professionally so it would be very surprising if the semen had been mixed up or anything, I'm in NZ so it's probably a smaller business with a smaller pool of stallions than in the states. I've just had a look at his dam's sire.... And now it gets weird, they actually advertised him as a dun pinto. Which just makes things more confusing. I'm guessing he looked dun, and they advertised him as that, but was really a buckskin.... Or could he have possibly been champagne? Probably the likeliest possibility is that the lab screwed up and he's a perlino, and I'm getting ahead of myself and should just wait on the results of the second test. But it's so interesting to think about, and I'm learning a lot about colour genetics, which I find fascinating!!


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Testing has come back again. Definitely only carries one cream gene.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

That can't be right.

I'd probably pull more hair and send it to a different place, and add on pearl to the test.

But he couldn't have a pearl parent either, rarity and breed aside. Neither of them are a double dilute, and cream+pearl make a double dilute, but just one pearl doesn't have an effect... Parents really don't look champagne either...

Have the parents been tested? Is there a record of their other offspring?


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

While I agree I would be sending a new sample to a different lab, I would also love to see close-up pictures of the tips of his ears..


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

And the foal doesn't have a dorsal stripe? On the off chance that mom really was bay dun, the foal could be dunskin..


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

No dorsal stripe on mum or bub. Also, I don't think dunskin are actually any lighter than your regular buckskin or dun. I'll get close up photos of his ears tomorrow, but they're as pink as anything and I need to Zinc them every day to not get sunburnt. They've also called him a gelding on his test.... Could they have mixed up his result? I've been advised to send to a different testing place in USA. And yes, I've done the research on pearl, that couldn't be it, and I agree, he doesn't look like he has champagne. Champagnes are pretty rare in NZ too, so for a random one to pop up would be pretty unusual.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Stallion has been tested pally, mare hasn't been tested, her sire certainty looked like a Tobiano buckskin, but probably wasn't tested either. Will see if I can find a pic of sire of dam


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Sire of dam


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

More recent photo of my little guy. He's getting lighter all the time


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Buckskin does not seem a possible genotype for a horse that looks so strongly like a double cream. Was your retest done with a fresh sample? If not I would try that. There's a (faint) possibility the sample might be contaminated.

There are a couple of not-great labs. I can't speak for the quality of the one you used, but Animal Genetics (USA) and UC Davis are reliable, if you feel the need to retest with a different lab. UC Davis, being a university-based lab, is also usually very willing to explore what's going on when genotype and phenotype don't match up. So if he were to test nCr again through them, they might then look into it and try to identify exactly why he looks CrCr.

My bet is on a dodgy sample though, because perlino is a VERY possible outcome from this pairing.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Lozzle said:


> I don't think dunskin are actually any lighter than your regular buckskin or dun.


While of course shade varies by individual, generally a dunskin is going to be lighter than a buckskin or a dun simply because they have 2 dilution genes (versus just one) acting on their coats.

This is Frilenis Guess Who, a tested dunskin Gypsy stallion:









I think his body color is pretty close to your foal's, but if your foal doesn't have a dorsal stripe, than it's highly unlikely dun is a factor.

I look forward to hearing what the test results are at the new lab as your foal sure seems like a double dilute..


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

My first guess would be that something got screwed up with the test. This colt doesn't even look black or bay based to me at all. I'm trying to remember, does the sire carry red as well?

If it were me, I would pull new hairs and send them to a different lab. I would use UC Davis because I think that they are very reliable but I'm sure there are others. If he still comes up buckskin with them I would then be looking into champagne or pearl. There are plenty of warmbloods with the champagne gene around.

How I understand it is the champagne gene is a separate dilute gene where as the pearl is linked to the cream dilute gene.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

But there's also skin color. OPs foal is very pink skinned, a dunskin is still blank skinned.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Yes, sorry I mean the skin pigmentation won't be any different between a buckskin and a dunskin. They both have dark skin, and also dark points. I know it is probably hard to see, but my foal has no variation in skin colour anywhere, and no darkening of points at all. There may be a lot of champagne warmblood in America, but here in NZ Champagne is pretty scarce. As his sire is tested pally, I don't imagine he also carries the champagne gene, he certainly doesn't appear to. I've been testing with a company here in NZ, and I'm sure we don't have as much experience as over there. Thanks so much for the recommendation, that's just what I need is someone who is willing to investigate further. The lab over here seems a little defensive and doesn't really know what to do from here, so I feel like I'm hassling them. They are testing extension again just to make sure he's not actually ee (pally), although I don't even think that would quite explain it. After that, they are at a loss for how to help.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Found these on my phone, show his ear a bit better


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I think Animal Genetics has a European lab in England, if that helps you any. I have found them to be VERY quick and accurate with results. They also cost less than UC Davis which is the other "go to" for dna testing.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Thanks! Doesn't make much difference whether I send to US or England, so I think I'll just send it to the US. Will be very interesting to see the results. Will let you all know.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Europe I meant, lol


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Maybe send in mom too, just to be thorough?


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

I thought of that too Apuetso. I'll start with the little guy, if I get the same result I'll send in Mum's. I don't want to spend a fortune, I've already spent a fair bit with the lab I've been using, but I really do want to get to the bottom of this. I can just imagine advertising my "buckskin" stallion, with a photo.... I'd be the laughing stock!


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Have just heard back from the lab again, they re ran the extension (or red factor) and that came back the same again as well. They have told me to send in a new sample, and they will re test again for free. So I will do that before sending to another lab, as it won't cost me anything. Fingers crossed I get a different result! It's doing my head in 😂


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I know it's hard to spend more money when you don't really want to, but have you thought about sending to a different place anyway as well as re testing at the original lab?


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

I definitely will if I don't get a different result this time, they think the sample may have been contaminated. They do all the DNA testing for the tb industry in NZ, so you'd hope they don't muck up too often.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I've been discussing this case (sans pictures) with an equine colour genetics group I'm in on a certain social media site.

The general consensus is retest with a fresh sample at a different lab. I didn't specify the lab but NZ must only have one because they ALL knew which lab I was talking about! And three different people said they had heard of similar mistests from this lab before & that they weren't much more reliable than Etalon (which is NOT respected in the equine genetics community at ALL). I found that interesting.

Personally I would send a sample to Animal Genetics or UC Davis.

His Extension result makes sense, by the way. He couldn't be homozygous dominant extension with a red parent. He could very easily be Ee. Depending on what the dam carries he might even be ee. But with a red-based parent (ee) he couldn't be EE. He has to be either Ee or ee.

Homozygous dominant agouti is also relatively likely. His dam, being buckskin, is E_ A_ nCr. Agouti status has absolutely no effect on red-based horses, so his sire could have any combination of A and a. If his sire is Aa or AA, then AA is a very likely test result.

The only result I question is your foal testing nCr when he's so clearly, visibly CrCr. IF he were CrPrl he would show a pseudo double cream phenotype, but he can't be, because both his parents are visually nCr and pearl always expresses when paired with cream... and never when it's heterozygous and on its own.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Thanks so much Blue eyed pony! That's really interesting to know about our lab here in NZ. By the way, I'm not sure if you are allowed even after me giving you permission, but I'm totally fine with you sharing my pictures with another group. I agree, he is totally likely to be Ee or ee, it's only the cream dilution I'd dispute. The lab was just hoping his result would come back palomino after the second test, so they could tell me he's a blue eyed light pally and wash their hands of it. Which is completely rediculous, as he's obviously a double dilute, no pigmentation of the skin to be seen.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Yeah, if the lab is telling people that PINK SKINNED BLUE EYED pale cream horses are palomino... I question their knowledge.

I've had a very pale cream palomino who was so light in winter he looked grey (but wasn't, he went dark gold in summer) but he had black skin and brown eyes.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

blue eyed pony said:


> Yeah, if the lab is telling people that PINK SKINNED BLUE EYED pale cream horses are palomino... I question their knowledge.
> 
> I've had a very pale cream palomino who was so light in winter he looked grey (but wasn't, he went dark gold in summer) but he had black skin and brown eyes.


I have a palomino foal whose foal coat is so light he looked cremello for a long time, but he had dark eyes and dark skin (plus mom's not a dilute, so impossible). He's just now starting to show the gold of his coat as his foal coat is starting to shed.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

All but two of my palomino had so light they were/are effectively white with foal coat and winter coats. The two that weren't are nd1 and the body is white but the typical darker areas common on duns was cinnamon. They ranged from really dark chocolate pally to a pale gold in summer. All were born with pink skin that darkened. There have been some that took longer but none this long and none had ice blue eyes.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

subbing into see the results. I find the genetics of dilute genes fascinating. Good luck! And I just want to add that your mare and foal are simply gorgeous!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here's a pic of Mort, the cremello colt shortly after he was born. Looks a lot like your boy.









Here's Joker, the palomino colt, shortly after birth. 










And one of Boudreaux, also a palomino, shortly after birth. He was much darker right from the beginning.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Results from new sample came back exactly the same. I'm determined to get to the bottom of this somehow. Will let you know any developments when I decide what to do from here!!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I wonder if there are any equine genetics experts that would look over your foal's photos and results?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

My first thought was as mom is buckskin and result is buckskin (and obv he's with mom) possible chance of "mom" being tested by mistake. Since a new test came up with the same result less likely but still.

I would also look at a new lab.

Other thought is that given his appearance and results you may be able to get some free testing done (glad the original lab gave you a deal but possible another lab would if you explain the situation).

I don't see any pics of dad, but tbh the only reason it would matter would be if one of the parents carried another gene to create the appearance of a double dilute cream which seems very unlikely (as said would be POSSIBLE with champagne or pearl but very obscure). Dad not being dad makes no sense as the babies color is the question not the genetics of that, buckskin OR a double dilute are both completely possible with that cross, I wouldn't be questioning that.

Also as said could be some weird genetic thing going on too. TBH out of all of this it seems most likely the lab is just messing up.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Personally, I would go with a different lab and also ask to test for champagne. I don't think that it is as obscure as people think. It certainly wouldn't hurt.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Was this with the same lab? Different hair sample?


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Lozzle said:


> Results from new sample came back exactly the same. I'm determined to get to the bottom of this somehow. Will let you know any developments when I decide what to do from here!!


That is just crazy!


Did you contact someone at the second lab to explain the situation and see if they had any recommendations? I wonder if they would test for other dilutions just to rule them out, as maybe your foal has some new mutation..


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

It's not a second lab, same lab. I'm going to test for champagne and pearl just to cover all bases, but It would be so unlikely. It can't be that mum's hair got in there somehow, yes she appears buckskin, but she can't be homozygous Tobiano, as her mum was plain bay. Obviously my next step is a new lab, I'm just saving up a little first, lol. No huge rush as he's only 9 weeks or so, although I am keen to get to the bottom of it!


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

So yes this was the same lab, different hair sample. Champagne, like you say, may not be as obscure as people think. However, neither my mare, or her sire look champagne to me, she is very black at the points, and her skin is dark grey. I understand champagne have lighter points, and motley skin? I have seen quite a few of his offspring, and none of them look champagne to me. I'm no expert on champagne though.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Neither parent is champagne. The sire is DEFINITELY palomino based on not only phenotype but also offspring, and the dam would have diluted points if she was champagne; heterozygous cream doesn't dilute black pigment but champagne does. 

Test under a different lab, this one doesn't seem to be particularly well respected in the equine genetics community. UC Davis or Animal Genetics are your best bets


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I'm really curious. Did you ever send in another sample with a different lab?


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## Tisha Lawrence (Mar 31, 2019)

I had no idea you could send off for color testing! 🤯 how do you do that ? I have no idea what color my horse is. Thanks


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Tisha Lawrence said:


> I had no idea you could send off for color testing! 🤯 how do you do that ? I have no idea what color my horse is. Thanks


Go on the websites of UC Davis or Animal Genetics and they will have an area that tells you what they test for, how to test and the cost of testing. 

Show us a picture of your horse and maybe we can tell you or guess.


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Hey Lorif. I am in the process at the moment. I have been given an offer to have my colt tested for free by a lab in Australia. They test one horse per month for free, for there "mystery colour" test. When I contacted them, I thought they probably wouldn't be interested seeing he's already had tests, but they are super keen! They also said Massey actually contacted them for advice recently about him. They are going to test both him and his dam, re run all the tests already done, then test for a few more things. They mentioned the "Sunshine" gene, which is a qh gene that acts a lot like cream. He doesn't have QH, so probably not that, but could be something similar. I'm excited!! So hope we can get to the bottom of this!


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## Lozzle (Dec 18, 2018)

Soooo........ Results in, he's perlino, somehow Massey doesn't seem to have a very reliable test for the cream gene. So happy to have an answer that makes sense!!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Now that makes a lot more sense.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Glad to see the mystery solved! That certainly makes sense.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

That result is certainly goes with his phenotype!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I thought so. An incorrect test certainly makes more sense than a single cream presenting, phenotypically, as a double cream... in the absence of any possibility of a pseudo double cream.


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