# Don't You Hate it when Non-Horse people try to argue with you about a horse's color?



## Ginger Fish (May 12, 2012)

Ok since my background is a picture of my colt and a horse person asked me what color is he gonna be since his sire was a roan and is dam was a gray. Which he is a gray which i told him and a non-horse person comes up and say no he is a brown horse. Have you ever had this happen this is the picture I had as my background.


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## EmberScarlet (Oct 28, 2016)

Yes.

So. 

Many.

Times.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I was about to start a thread on this question, but from the opposite angle. I ride five times a week, have my own horse - you could call me a horse person. 

However, I don't see a point in calling a brown horse gray. Sure, he has the genetics but surely the point of giving a name to a colour is to be able to distinguish horses visually? "Go tack up that gray" - I would most definitely not come back with a brown horse. I just don't see the point in muddying the issue.

And don't get me started on "Is this horse dun?" crowd. If you need six pages of discussion to determine a colour, to me it defeats the purpose.

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this, just couldn't help it, sorry. There is most probably some reason people do this that eludes me, so feel free to educate me.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

When I moved to a new stable last year, I put up my usual dry erase boards on my horse's stalls with all kinds of information on them.

The next time I went out, someone had written my horse's colors on each board so that they knew which horse went in which stall. On the board for my bay, someone had written "brown" and at first it was just funny to me. 

:smile: It had been put on there by an older couple who had 2 horses boarded there (further proof that you can own horses for 20+ years and not learn a thing). I didn't want to hurt their feelings or make enemies so I left it as is
even though it really started to bug me over time.

They moved their horses out and the first thing I did was run right over and erase the "brown" on the board. I told the BO that it would be embarrassing for someone to think I was that ignorant about the color of my own horse!!


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Horsef said:


> I was about to start a thread on this question, but from the opposite angle. I ride five times a week, have my own horse - you could call me a horse person.
> 
> However, I don't see a point in calling a brown horse gray. Sure, he has the genetics but surely the point of giving a name to a colour is to be able to distinguish horses visually? "Go tack up that gray" - I would most definitely not come back with a brown horse. I just don't see the point in muddying the issue.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I have to agree! The horse pictured is one of those magical, ever changing colors. I own one myself and it's been a thrill to see what color he ends up year after year but I'd never, never expect a non-horse person to identify the absolute, genetic color. My boy is a registered AQHA dark chestnut. From the time I've owned him, he has gone from chestnut, to black/chestnut, to black, to dark dapple grey to a now silver dapple gray. The only time you see a tiny hint of chestnut is in bright, natural light.

Horses like this are fun! You just never know what color will appear each spring!


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

I think this is one of the things horse people are most uptight about. If a horse is literally brown in color, obviously most people are going to call it brown, even if it's actually bay or roan or gray or whatever. I'm not sure why people are bothered so much by this.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, the horse, to me, so far, looks like he has not inherited the greying gene, so he is not a grey, but his base color he was born with
His mother most likely is hOmozgous for grey, and far as I can see, did not pass on the greying gene, so the non horse person is correct, at this point in time
All grey horses are born some base coat color. THey only become grey, if they receive a greying gene form either parent. If that grey parent, passes on anon greying gene, that horse will not grey, and thus remains his base color.
Thus, unless you can show where your horse is greying, he is brown


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Jan1975 said:


> I think this is one of the things horse people are most uptight about. If a horse is literally brown in color, obviously most people are going to call it brown, even if it's actually bay or roan or gray or whatever. I'm not sure why people are bothered so much by this.


Just because one parent was grey or roan, does not mean the the offspring will be, unless those parents were homozgous for either roan or grey
I think the OP is not exactly clear on how the greying gene is expressed.
If grey horses are not homozygous for grey, they sure can have non grey offspring! Greying is first noticed around the eyes. I don't see any evidence of that in that picture


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

To be honest, I really don't care :wink:

Once we became horse owners, my husband was happy to be able to engage in horse "chit chat" with his work colleagues and clients (at the time, he had a client who was a fancy saddle fitter). Talking about my horse, he proudly declared, "She's an 18 year old Morgan mare"- and he did get those facts right. When asked what color, he thought for a minute, and said "brown?"

Good enough- her loves her just the same whether he knows the difference between bay and brown.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

What Smilie said. If you had asked me, I would have said brown. If he grays, he would still be a brown, with a graying gene. If he roans, he'll be a brown with a roaning gene.

Whether the non-horse person knows that "brown", in the horse world, is a dark variant of bay, is another thing. Probably they got it right by accident.

I don't hate when someone who knows nothing about my avocation makes a language mistake about it. I don't know why they should be expected to have mastered the nomenclature of a field they have no interest in.

As I've noted before, my brown mare and a bright chestnut overo mare share a pasture. My neighbors refer to them as the black horse and the brown horse, respectively. I try to remember which one they are talking about.


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## EmberScarlet (Oct 28, 2016)

Expanding on my previous entry, I mostly care when they argue about smaller things, like if I say a horse is just grey, NOT dappled grey. Usually people just say, ''oh, cool.'' and are done with, but I've had NON-HORSE people ARGUE about it... Like I don't know what I'm saying and they do, haha...


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

EmberScarlet said:


> Expanding on my previous entry, I mostly care when they argue about smaller things, like if I say a horse is just grey, NOT dappled grey. Usually people just say, ''oh, cool.'' and are done with, but I've had NON-HORSE people ARGUE about it... Like I don't know what I'm saying and they do, haha...


It wouldn't be an argument if the reply were something like "I know he looks brown to someone who is not educated in all the horse colors and shades and tones of colors. Very confusing for someone who isn't familiar with horses!"


I have a yellow Labrador retriever whose shade is very light. I have had people ask if he is a "white" Labrador. I just give them a little spiel about the three coat colors and the shades, assure them he is not an albino and agree "He does look white, doesn't he?"


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## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

Yeah, it's not much of a big deal to me either! My guy is technically black, and he certainly gets that way whenever his new coat comes in, but he sun fades sooo quickly that most of the time he looks brown! If I had to tell someone who didn't know colors to get him out of his pasture and said get the big black horse, they would bring in his sister! (who doesn't fade hardly at all) It's easier to just call him the color that he looks, rather than what he is genetically, but certainly nothing to get into an argument over.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Well, the horse, to me, so far, looks like he has not inherited the greying gene, so he is not a grey, but his base color he was born with
> His mother most likely is hOmozgous for grey, and far as I can see, did not pass on the greying gene


If the dam was homozygous for grey, then the foal would be grey 100% of the time.

Personally, I see signs of greying in the OP's horse as he has diffuse white hairs all over him, including his face. However, I can understand why the early greying process would be confusing to people (both horsey and non), so I wouldn't be surprised that someone called that horse brown.

I am quite used to people commenting on my "white" horses and I don't bother to correct them unless they have asked.

How specific I get when discussing color depends on the person I am talking to and the circumstance it is in. In some cases, such as sale ads, I think specifics can be very important so people should be educated about the terms they use.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Can you imagine trying to describe "liver" chestnut- vs chestnut vs sorrel?

Even to most horse people that one can be "FUN"!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horsef said:


> I was about to start a thread on this question, but from the opposite angle. I ride five times a week, have my own horse - you could call me a horse person.
> 
> However, I don't see a point in calling a brown horse gray. Sure, he has the genetics but surely the point of giving a name to a colour is to be able to distinguish horses visually? "Go tack up that gray" - I would most definitely not come back with a brown horse. I just don't see the point in muddying the issue.
> 
> ...


Unless he inherited one greying gene, a brown horse does NOT have the grey genetics
The greying gene is autosomal dominant, thus, if just one copy is inherited, it will be expressed. If not expressed the hrose does not have the greying genetics, regardless if one parent was grey or not-that parent did not pass on the greying gene!


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## Daroga (Sep 16, 2016)

I only get irritated when Cremellos are called "white" or "albino". And if you think the chestnut x sorrel x liver discussion is fun, trying having a perlino x cremello x smokey crème conversation. My favorite is when someone sees a Claybank Dun and calls it "orange". xD Always makes me chuckle a bit.


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## Uze (Feb 23, 2013)

Daroga said:


> I only get irritated when Cremellos are called "white" or "albino". And if you think the chestnut x sorrel x liver discussion is fun, trying having a perlino x cremello x smokey crème conversation. My favorite is when someone sees a Claybank Dun and calls it "orange". xD Always makes me chuckle a bit.


Lol my sister had a cremello that people constantly asked if her horse was albino.


I have an APHA gelding and a pinto draft cross filly. I don't get mad when people call my cross filly a paint, non-horse people just figure anything with white and color is a paint.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I don't get too worked up over colors because it can be very confusing, even for horse people. 

I think it boils down to genotype vs. phenotype. What a horse actually is genetically vs. what it "looks" like to someone who doesn't know the genetics. And let's face it, genetics can get complicated.

My pet peeve is people who talk about their horse's "confirmation" in their sales ads. Right now there is even a stallion ad on my local Craiglist with "confirmation." Well, they say he's sired 200 foals, so maybe his stallion status has been confirmed!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't argue with them. I don't argue the bay/brown or brown/black/smoky black.
If it has a faded muzzle and flank I call them brown. lol.. Not doing genetic test on every horse I see or own. If the brown horse has a lot of red tint to its body and the black points, I will call it a bay. 
A grey is grey dapples or not, even the white horses. I use the term cremello for the white creamy and do not use the term perlino . 
Albino, if that horse has pink eyes I call it Albino. I only called one horse I knew Albino he had one pinky /blue eye and one blue eye, pink skin you could see through the hair. he was very very white. No grey , born white. He belonged to a neighbor.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Albinism doesn't exist in horses. You can have dominant white or similar that are all white from their markings. Dilutions will effect eye colours.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Daroga said:


> My favorite is when someone sees a Claybank Dun and calls it "orange".


Ah but see, using the true genetic terms can be a lot more clear, at least to someone who knows horse color genetics.

I am not familiar with a "claybank" dun. Is that red dun? bay dun? 

So many regional terms make things even more confusing. Like what is a "chocolate palomino" in your world?!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I don't think this post is about describing colour accurately, through visible observation alone, but the concept by the OP, that if one parent was grey, then that offspring is a grey, even when he is not greying, and appears not to have inherited the greying gene
In other words, more a lack of understanding of autosomal dominant inheritence, which also applies to HYpp, and with people not understanding, if that offspring from an HYPP positive horse , tests negative, he doe snot have hypp, nor can he pass it on, unless another HYPP positive horse is introduced
No, you do not call a solid colored horse agrey, nor state he carries the greying gene, unless it is being expressed. That is the entire point, and not whether the horse is brown or bay or whatever!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> I don't think this post is about describing colour accurately, through visible observation alone, but the concept by the OP, that if one parent was grey, then that offspring is a grey, even when he is not greying, and appears not to have inherited the greying gene
> In other words, more a lack of understanding of autosomal dominant inheritence, which also applies to HYpp, and with people not understanding, if that offspring from an HYPP positive horse , tests negative, he doe snot have hypp, nor can he pass it on, unless another HYPP positive horse is introduced
> No, you do not call a solid colored horse agrey, nor state he carries the greying gene, unless it is being expressed. That is the entire point, and not whether the horse is brown or bay or whatever!


Perhaps reread the first post again? 

Their horse was produced from crossing a roan and a gray so a horse person asked them what his color is (as they had a few options, some needing better inspection than what a picture shows you like small hints of graying). They told that horse person that the horse was gray, no problem or argument about the color. But had someone else approach them that doesn't have a lot of horse knowledge and try to correct them on the color by telling the OP that the horse was in fact brown. 

This thread wasn't about whether or not the horse is brown or a brown based gray but about having a non horse person trying to educate you on horses or horse colors. And asked in their original post if this kind of scenario (non horse person telling you that they know more about horses than you do) had happened to anyone else. 

Maybe the non horse person was right in this instance, hard to tell from one picture and recognizing that in some cases the graying process is excruciatingly slow.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

perhaps, then this statement by the OP is clearer to you then to me

Ok since my background is a picture of my colt and a horse person asked me what color is he gonna be since his sire was a roan and is dam was a gray. Which he is a gray which i told him and a non-horse person comes up and say no he is a brown horse. Have you ever had this happen this is the picture I had as my background.'

I did not get out of that statement that the horse was in fact greying, and that picture does not show it. What I got out of it, was that since the parents were grey and roan, the colt then was automatically a grey also.
OP needs to clarify. If anything, that poor picture might be showing the ccolt roaning over the hips
I realize greying can have various rates of expression, and also at times, roaning can be hard to tell apart from greying. Either modifier , both or none, might be working on that base color. Perhaps better pictures and the OP stating not that one parent is grey, but that the colt himself is greying, would add a lot of clarification

See, I did read it. Guess it is all in the comprehension as to what is actually being said! There is areason that people at times, get different meanings , reading the same thing!


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## Daroga (Sep 16, 2016)

phantomhorse13 said:


> Ah but see, using the true genetic terms can be a lot more clear, at least to someone who knows horse color genetics.
> 
> I am not familiar with a "claybank" dun. Is that red dun? bay dun?
> 
> So many regional terms make things even more confusing. Like what is a "chocolate palomino" in your world?!


To me a Claybank is a red dun that is on the darker end of the red dun spectrum, thus giving the "orange" look to them. 

To me, a chocolate palomino is what I think of when I think of Kentucky Mountain Horses, that nice rich brown coat and blonde mane and tail.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Ginger Fish said:


> Ok since my background is a picture of my colt and a horse person asked me what color is he gonna be since his sire was a roan and is dam was a gray. Which he is a gray which i told him and a non-horse person comes up and say no he is a brown horse. Have you ever had this happen this is the picture I had as my background.


I think most people are missing the point. If I'm understanding what was said a horse person asked them about what color the horse was, because he's young and his true color may not be obvious at this point (being that his parents are gray and roan), the non horse person butted in to inform them that that they don't know what color their own horse is. I would assume if they had been asking this non horse person to go and get the horse out of a pasture, they'd be more descriptive in a way that would help the person (honestly if they know horses or not) find the correct horse. This isn't about people not knowing a horses color, but more about people stepping in to argue and making themselves look ignorant over something they know nothing about.

As far as this horse's color, he looks like a brown roan in this pic, I can see the roaning on the body, but nothing on the head or legs, however, the owner has more then just this one pic to go on, and I'm giving them the benifit of the doubt and assuming they know.

As for the question, I have more horse people that know 'just enough' argue with me, then completely non horse people.


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## Ginger Fish (May 12, 2012)

This is a winter coat picture but right now he is shedding and gray hairs are coming out so he is graying on his rump, barrel, neck, chest legs, and face.


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## Ginger Fish (May 12, 2012)

Picture of when he was just born


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I don't get picky with non-horse people. Personally, even my eyes start to glaze over if someone starts explaining something far more than I wanted to know.
But I might have replied something like...He sure does look brown but see these grey hairs over his body and face? Every year he will shed out lighter so it's like unwrapping a whole new horse.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Same. 
I'm sure I've mislabeled or misinterpreted one or two things in my life 

Adorable baby, Ginger!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I don't argue with anyone except my husband. Everyone else can have their opinion, right or wrong, I am not the person to set them straight.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Ginger .. what a cute baby !!


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I don't worry too much about what colour people see my horse as. A general description is good enough for me. If they are not horse people I don't expect them to be accurate on colour.

One example tho' did make me smile one time. I went out for a ride on my dark brown mare and the neighbours ( definitely non horsey people) were out for a walk and we went together along the road for a bit before I turned off into a field. I finished my ride and decided to ride my Sister's horse, a mainly white pinto with minimal brown on it. 
The neighbours were just coming back from their walk and the husband said to me "is that a different horse you are riding now?"
I just smiled and said yes it is.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I am also a horse person not hung up on color, except when a color is associated with a genetic defect
Far as I'm concerned, when people get all hung up as to what color ahrose is, buy a horse based on color, that defines them to me as a non serious horse person.
I raised Appaloosas, so of course, color was a desired attribute, BUT it was never number one. It was the 'icing' on the cake, so to speak
Thus, I was happy to ride both colored and non colored Apps, as I put mind, athletic ability, ahead of color any time.
Thus, when a non horse person sees a horse, that at the moment looks like a brown horse, might be greying or roaning, it to me is even logical for them to call that horse a brown horse
Why the big deal in the first place! Even if that horse is greying or roaning, he is still a brown horse, genetically, with a color modifier working on that coat 
It is also hard to tell the roaning gene action from the greying gene at times. Roan horses keep dark face markings, while greying horses usually have the first evidence of the greying gene being at work, by that greying being at the hairs around the eyes first
When Charlie was born, I could see that she had inherited the greying gene from her sire, as she already had that greying circle around her eyes
From the picture you posted, of your horse at the start, i think even an experienced horse person would find it difficult to make the call as to whether the roaning gene, or the greying gene was at work, or even a combo of the two


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If I looked at that winter picture of your horse, that you posted in the beginning, no way would I definitely conclude he was greying, although he might be roaning over his hips-so why in the heck try and crucify a non horse person, from visible observations?
In fact, what makes you so sure the horse is greying, versus roaning?
I think your rant is pointless-sorry!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Just something to point out, not all greys start greying with goggles around their eyes. Maybe it is the most common way, I don't know. But my one and only foal, a grey, did not start greying around the eyes. The first hint was actually white hairs at the end of his tail. I would part the hairs and they were white near the tail bone. Then he got sort of an all-over roaning effect similar to the OP's horse. Then, later, he finally started getting some white hairs near his eyes. 

People used to tell me to look for white eye-lashes as the first sign of greying. My guy didn't have those for months and months. Maybe longer (he was very slow to grey out). He definitely got the tail hair and random white body hairs first. But like I said, my guy was slow to grey out. He looked like a bay from a distance for several years. He is finally getting dapples at the age of 6-7. 

Here is what he looked like at about a month old and then again at 9 months old when I was finally sure he was a grey. :mrgreen: The last picture shows the white in the tail and the body roaning. But he wasn't born with goggles and even at 9 months had very little white around his eyes. It was developing on his nose though!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Ginger Fish said:


> Picture of when he was just born


This photo also strongly suggests that he is a grey. Grey foals are born and "adult" color. Like solid black (when normally a black foal would be mousy) or a bay with black legs. Normally, bay foals have mealy colored legs, not solid black. So the solid black legs plus at least one grey parent I would say means it's much more likely than not that he is a grey.

Edit: Not sure why that photo isn't showing up. It's on page #3, post #29.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

For anyone that wishes to read on greying gene versus roaning gene,and then further possible confusion, if a horse carries both, deciding as to which gene or both are contributing to white hairs, here is a good link

GRAY VS ROAN HORSES: How to tell the difference between gray and roan[/url


He did have those dark legs as a foal, so nay current pictures?


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I don't argue or even get annoyed when someone mislabels the color of one of my horses (horse person or not), it doesn't bother me. However I would be bothered by someone trying to argue with me, or butting into a convo they weren't even involved in to tell me I didn't know what color my horse was, which sounds like what happened in this situation. And I might even want to vent a little about it.


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