# Understanding Equine Trauma



## doghorse123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Equine trauma is a very real issue. Many people do not fully understand trauma and being uniformed can be disastrous. Either you or your horse can be injured if your horse doesn't work out its trauma. 

This is copied from my website. I'm passing it around so that you can help your horse work through trauma.

Horses can get emotional trama just like humans. Unfortunatly, they are forced to keep their trama pent up inside. You may not even know that your horse has pent up trama until you are working them and they freak out. 

A horse who is experiencing emotional trama and needs to get it out will do this: if you are riding them, they will just start acting out of character. If your horses is normally calm and quiet, they may become jittery and pulling on the bit. 

What to do: I recommend stopping what you are doing. You will not be able to accomplish anything with you horse. You will only add to the problem. If you have a round pen, let your horse loose in it. (no halter, no ropes). Try to start your horse going in a circle.
Your horse will probably start to buck and kick and basically throw a temper tantrum. Watch for hooves and don't get close. If your horse starts running in circles and not even looking at you, they are dealing with their trauma. Don't move. Let your horse run circles. They are releasing all their frustration and pent up rage. If you try to force them to do something or pay attention to you, then they will have to hold in their emotion and become more frustrated (this could end in disaster). 

While your horse deals with their emotions:
relax your body. Take deep breathes and calm your own emotions. This is huge. Your horse will notice you have control of your emotions and gravitate towards you. Horses look for leaders who are calm and fair. Be that leader. Drop your shoulders and stand still as your horse circles you. (Use caution if your horse attacks often do not turn your back). It make take a while but your horse will come to a stop. Don't move. This is critical. Your horse will see you and notice that you have your emotions in line and have a plan. They will walk towards you. Only when your horse is right next to (often they come up behind you) should you turn around. Let him know he is safe by petting his face if he allows it or speaking softly. 

I will be posting a video of this soon to make it easier to understand. (will be found on my website) This is a very touchy training step. It can help your horse a lot if done correctly. If done wrong, it can strain your relationship with your horse. If you have any questions or run into a problem, please email me and I will try to help you through it. 

Equine trauma is a real thing to help avoid it, don't ignore the problem. Horses that are head shy or cinch sour have a MILD case of trauma. These can be taken care of easily. Extreme cases are avoidance of a certain area at all costs. (example freezes up every time he is near a certain spot). Extreme cases take a long time to overcome and a lot of patience. Please just be patient with your horse and look at the situation in a new perspective. 

As always- end on a good note.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Well, I cannot agree with you one iota.

Of a horse that normally is good to ride starts messing around then I will look for a reason, pain, tack fit, weather, feed and routine. 

If I can rule out the pain and tack fit then it is made to work and work hard until it realises that messing around is not going to be the thing to do.

If a horse refuses to go past a certain spot I certainly would not get off it and take it home to turn it into a round pen, it will be made to go forward. 

If a horse has had an accident that might have frightened it then you have to make sure that it gains confidence doing it again, avoiding issues only makes for further problems.

If you are confident then that confidence passes through to the horse and they will trust you regardless.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

While I will agree that horses can suffer trauma, and there could be some special techniques involved in overcoming the results of that, to say:

"if you are riding them, they will just start acting out of character. If your horses is normally calm and quiet, they may become jittery and pulling on the bit. "

... is a sign of trauma and then follow your instructions is just crazy... imo.

Horses can do these things for MANY reasons, most of which are not trauma related.

I can appreciate you're trying to help people with trauma-related issues, but the few paragraphs above can be sooooooooooo misleading .. especially to inexperienced riders.

Oh ... and welcome to the forum..


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Firstly welcome to the forum! It might help you to post a link to your website (if allowed) so that people have easy access to the video and material. 

Now to my comments: 

I think a number of older horse trainers have always known that horses can have emotional trauma. I liken it to a horse that has a carting accident, it's a whole lot more difficult to get them BACK to pulling then it is to get them riding again. 

I don't know if what you're describing is what I'd call "trauma" (I tend to call it being a brat) but my gelding does have psychological issues. He is probably the poster child for a horse with mental trauma. There's a big difference between when he 'breaks down' and when a horse who's being stubborn or over loaded does. When he breaks down it's a matter of staying calm and going back to what he's comfortable with, and not getting off unless absolutely necessary. (Which has happened on two occasions when he's been so far gone it was safer to return to a round pen and focus on groundwork). 

For a horse that's overloaded or is being a brat I won't get off. I'll adjust the situation to what they need to succeed and then work them past whatever their issue is. 

To me a horse that is cinch or headshy does not have 'trauma' unless something caused it. (For example being hit in the head with an object repeatedly or the like.) Freezing up near a certain spot is not trauma in my book but an avoidance tactic due to either rewarded behavior or 'stupid moments'. In my book trauma is when a horse has a genuine reason to shy away from a situation/object. My gelding for example was beat over the head with a 2X4 and left to die after being ridden into the ground. Because of that he had several issues with things above his ears that I worked very hard to get him over. He has several other 'tics' that he is frightened of that I have to work around and not treat like I would a 'normal' horse. Compared to a horse that 'suddenly' becomes 'headshy' because they dislike clippers or don't want to put on a bridle. 

I probably haven't explained this well but that's just my .02 cents.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I sounds to me like another of those 'new age horse expressions' that's being used out of context 
_noun_
_noun: *trauma*; plural noun: *traumata*; plural noun: *traumas * a deeply distressing or disturbing experience
_
_Medical sense - Injury_


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

While I agree that horses that have had “traumatic” events happen that affect behavior such as the starved horse that later develops food aggression, I don’t think that the round-pen is necessarily key to the solution. More importantly, is your suggestion of controlling your emotions. 

Perhaps a horse slipped and fell in a certain spot in the arena so he is reticent of that spot each time he approaches it. He learned that spot=danger and pain. 

The only way he is going to get over that "trauma" is to have several good experiences that negates his 1 prior bad experience. This means, as Foxhunter said, making him go past, through or over that spot until the new normal experience replaces the old bad one. 

If you are more confident on the ground than in the saddle, in order to control your own nervous energy, this may mean walking him on lead over that spot first before doing it in the saddle. Adding a nice scratch and a “good boy/girl” to sweeten the experience when he makes an attempt to do as asked is usually enough to begin the healing process. 

By taking him away from the object of his fear and putting him in the round pen, you are allowing him to release tension that he has forgotten the trigger of without addressing the cause. It has a similar effect to punishing a horse for kicking out at you 30 seconds after the fact or giving a reward three minutes after the horse earned it. The reward of a release of tension must be mentally linked to the cause (stimulus) of the fear in order to be effective at changing the response.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am trying to think of what could be classed as 'trauma' 
As Incitatus says an accident in harness can be exceedingly traumatic and a difficult one to gain the horse's confidence. 

A girl who worked for me was out Foxhunting, on her way home she decided to jump a hunt fence to cut off a couple of miles home. 
The horse slipped and ended up trapped under the fence. She called me, (thank heavens for cell phones!) and I took the ATV and chainsaw to go free him. 
By the time I got there he had been under the fence for nearly an hour. He had struggled to start but then just relaxed. 
I had to chainsaw the rail about a foot from his face. Once the rails were down he slipped into th deep ditch, stood there for a couple of minutes and then scrambled out. 
A few minor scrapes that was all. 
Two day later we rode that way and his rider popped the fence with him, no problem at all. 

Now had either of us panicked that horse would have struggled and done a lot of damage to himself. She kept her cool, told him to keep still and because he trusted her he did. 

Had either of us worried about popping the rails then he would have refused them. 

Oh, this horse was a throw out racehorse that was known for being exceedingly difficult six months before.

a fear is only conquered if you face it.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

^That’s why I think it is so important to control your own emotions. Sometimes the “Trauma” problem is twofold. 

I have a friend who had been riding since she could walk and was always a pillar of confidence in the saddle. A few years back she did some serious damage to her shoulder and pelvis when she tried to push a fearful, balking horse past a “******”. The horse reared and then spun around throwing her into a cactus and a pile of rocks. 

I have always pushed my horse through, but I have also never (knock wood) been seriously injured doing so. Perhaps her experience makes me overly cautious of telling people to always stay in the saddle when they are nervous and so is the horse.


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## doghorse123 (Mar 8, 2015)

Thank you very much to all who have replied. I am new to forum posting things and explaining my thoughts on the internet so I appreciate the help. 

I agree with most of your replies and this is why I'm working on getting a video up as quickly as possible so that there are as few miscommunications as possible. 

As for the word trauma being a touchy word, it is the only word that can be used for the way a horse is feeling. This is not a new fancy training word. It is a psychology term. I am the daughter of a psychology professor and have been studying psychology and how it pertains to horses since I was very young. 

Let me define trauma in this context. Trauma by definition: "A deeply distressing or disturbing experience." online dictionary. It does NOT mean that it had to be a huge event. Example: you are riding your horse and a tractor makes a scary noise. Now every time you pass the tractor, your horse freezes up or freaks out. 

Trauma can be anything. My mare was traumatized by an trailer ride that I didn't authorize. She was shoved into a trailer and hauled at a high speed over a dirt road and then dumped in an unfamiliar place. When I finally found her, she would not come near me. I got her in a pen and she did exactly as I described- ran in circles and couldn't pay attention. She was releasing all her anger. 

With humans sometimes we hide our emotions so much until we can't hold it anymore. We have to scream or punch a pillow. When your boss makes you work overtime five days in a row and you had plans, you are civil and polite when you talk to him. By the end of the week, you go home and scream. Don't you feel better after you scream? 

Trauma is the only word to use because it can happen in so many different ways. You don't even have to be the one to inflict the trauma. Maybe another horse bit your horse and that made your horse doubt himself. Trauma is sometimes subtle. Maybe you yanked on the bit by accident or whipped without reason (that the horse could see). 

I also agree, I will change my post to if your horse acts this way then it COULD be trauma. Not all or nothing sounding.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Now go study Anthropomorphism...

Seriously, horses are not human .. 

Horses relate to each other differently than humans do. A horse that gets bit doesn't "doubt himself".. imo.

I find it more interesting how our own human experiences can affect the way we deal with other people and our animals...

I should bow out..


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

I love your explanation of trauma doghorse and completely agree  It's not up to us to decide what is deeply distressing to our animals, it is up to them.

Humans and horses may be different species but they both have mammalian brains that function in identical ways. I think it's great that you are drawing on psychology and genuine empirical evidence to learn about animals and think about your training approach


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

OP,

While I agree, that horses are capable of emotion; fear, satisfaction and anticipation being a few of the more readily observable ones, where we will most probably part ways is in the assumption that they therefore deal with, cognitively process, store or interpret the recall of event linked emotions in the same way humans do. 

Since you have an interest in the topic, I will direct you to a book co-written by a neuropsychologist and a horseman, called “Evidence Based Horsemanship” by Dr. Stephen Peters and Martin Black. In it Dr. Peters applies ‘best practices’ evidence based approaches revolving around results oriented applications rather than theory. If you are psych wonk like me, then you should find it quite interesting.


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## doghorse123 (Mar 8, 2015)

I'm not saying horses are humans. Lets get over this, horses are not humans, they don't think like humans, they don't react like humans. Clearly, the english language is keeping me from explaining my observations. Horses DO show the basic emotions though. If you can't tell when your horse is ticked off at you then there is a problem with your eyes. We all know when our horse is in a bad mood. To say they don't show emotion is... well wrong. 

*deep breath* ok. so we have established that horses are not humans. I explain things using human events to help others understand. I am NOT saying that horses respond to them the same way we would. 

If you believe that Equine trauma is a myth, and wonder why you should even consider believing me, then just ask Mark Rashid. He wrote the book Horses Never Lie and the book Considering the Horse and many more. They are both worth the money to buy and read.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I don't believe equine trauma is myth. My bff bought a weanling colt whose only prior handling resulting in him flipping onto a concrete floor and busting his head open, then separated from him mom, rounded up into a trailer and hauled 11 hours to his new home.

It took her MONTHS of trust building and patience to overcome his total fear of humans. He literally screamed (like I have never heard a horse) when he was touched.

Not once did she chase him around a round pen so he could vent his anger so he could quit doubting himself or whatever. He had true trauma and fear .. the fear a prey animal has toward a predator.

Happy to report than my human bff was able to gain his equine trust and he is a happy well-adjusted 3 year old that she can get on and ride around with just a halter on.

He's never been round penned and she certainly doesn't stop when he has a moment and run to the round pen to let him vent his "anger" ..

He has moved on.. thanks to her patience and steady hand.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I have read all of Rashid's books and he is actually one of my favorite trainer/writers, though I also have explored many other perspectives that do not necessarily meld with my own approach, in which I have found value as well. 

Yes, I believe trauma, as you defined it, in horses exists. In one degree or another, probably everyone here does as most people have encountered mentally messed up horses at one time or another. It is how we best and most efficiently deal with it that is the issue.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

I often find it helpful to imagine how I would feel in the animal's situation. Although our cognitive complexities may differ, the functioning is the same and I think we are all agreeing that horses feel emotions. In that way sometimes putting ourselves in another's shoes (even if that other is a horse) can only be beneficial.

If I were absolutely terrified of a tractor I wouldn't want someone to force me past it kicking me on thought sheer panic. I might prefer that my rider dismount, give me some encouragement to help me feel safe and take small steady steps to building my confidence around the tractor...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have had more than one horse that was terrified by tractors or heavy vehicles, _I have never got off and led them past._
What I have done is to ride with confidence, take them where there are tractors and rode them around and around a parked one and then have it running then being driven and within a couple of sessions they are fine. 

One pony was a danger with tractors, to small for me to ride, I put her in a large cattle yard amd left two tractors engines running, alongside of her. 
End of a week she was trotting alongside a moving tractor with no worries. 

Majority of problems that some would say we're 'trauma' stem purely from the rider's expecting problems.

I am not saying that horses do not get mental problems, they certainly can. What I am saying is that handling them with firmly, fairly and with confidence and consistency they will soon not only accept you as a leader but have confidence and trust. 
Some that are wrecks mentally I will use Join Up to start them off for one or two days and the rest is down to day to day handling and riding.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I have had more than one horse that was terrified by tractors or heavy vehicles, _I have never got off and led them past._
> What I have done is to ride with confidence, take them where there are tractors and rode them around and around a parked one and then have it running then being driven and within a couple of sessions they are fine.
> 
> One pony was a danger with tractors, to small for me to ride, I put her in a large cattle yard amd left two tractors engines running, alongside of her.
> ...


It may well give you the result you want but I still wouldn't like it if you did it to me. I wonder if you would do the same to a child or if you might find a more supportive method.


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## doghorse123 (Mar 8, 2015)

This is where I am different from a lot of trainers. (I'm not saying other trainers are wrong, I'm saying this is how I handle my horses). I do not walk into a round pen with an air of authority that demands respect. My goal is trust first, respect will come. 

Thank you so much to every who has replied. This is the first time I've put my training ideas online and I was very nervous about how it would be taken. I've worked for an old fashioned trainer who always put me down whenever I had a suggestion. From what I heard, it wasn't because he thought I was wrong, he was just not going to change his ways and take advice from someone younger than him.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

AceyGrace said:


> It may well give you the result you want but I still wouldn't like it if you did it to me. I wonder if you would do the same to a child or if you might find a more supportive method.


... and we're back to horses being human again... :?


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Yeah that was my point  if we agree horses and humans both experience feelings and emotions then why would a horse like being locked in a small space with its greatest fear any more than a chil would?!


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I probably wouldn't do that with a weanling .. if you are paralleling a child with a young horse.

They don't understand human language. You cannot reason with them in that sense. 

A horse is a prey animal. Human is not. Their response is vastly different from ours. Their ability to learn is different from ours. They need a strong confident leader that they can trust.

You can be compassionate and strong at the same time.

There are many things I don't like, that I have to do, for my own good and the good of others .. so the "I don't like it" thing is just crazy.

Back to the original post .. 

Telling someone that normal reactive behaviors of a horse is a sign of "trauma" and to reward that behavior by dismounting and going home to the round pen is a dangerous blanket statement to make .. especially to inexperienced people that could just be dealing with a horse that is testing them.


.... imo ....


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AceyGrace said:


> Yeah that was my point  if we agree horses and humans both experience feelings and emotions then why would a horse like being locked in a small space with its greatest fear any more than a chil would?!


With that particular pony - which had cost mega bucks at one point and then become dangerous for a child to ride because if it saw a tractor two fields away or a big vehicle it would just tank off.

Several people had tried to get it confident with traffic to no avail. I offered to try, told the owner I wanted it for six weeks, no charge if it wasn't traffic proof at the end. 

It worked. If it wanted to eat or drink it had to go near the tractors, calves in adjoining pens had no fear of the tractors so it wasn't long before it was happily eating hay right next to the tractor. 

Another horse that was terrible in all traffic I rode with another horse to shield him. When he was a bit more confident I took him to where road works were going on. Traffic had to slow down because of the works, it was a busy road. I had permission from a friend who owned a house on that road, to stand in her drive.
To start the horse freaked, after an hour he was totally relaxed with buses and heavy vehicles passing right by his nose. Pedestrians walking past stopped to talk, some gave him a stroke or a tidbit so he realised this could be a good thing. 

whether human or animal facing a fear in safe conditions will get them over that fear faster than a softly softly touch. 

I have never studied psychology as such, read a lot on it and my conclusion is that it is based on common sense. 
Look for a reason as to why and then set about changing the wherefore.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Psychology and learning theory is not 'just common sense'. If it were we would all be qualified psychologists lol. Conditioning and learning are a hugely complex area of psychology that people spend years educating themselves on. I only wish more people would!

Learning is learning is learning... Across all species and biologically horses and humans DO learn identically.

OP keep up the good work and keep looking at current psychological research that supports kind and effective training  you're on the right track!


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

texasgal said:


> You can be compassionate and strong at the same time.


THIS!!! This 110%. 



AceyGrace said:


> Psychology and learning theory is not 'just common sense'. If it were we would all be qualified psychologists lol. Conditioning and learning are a hugely complex area of psychology that people spend years educating themselves on. I only wish more people would!


I've taken many psychology and sociology courses at a collegiate level , and for better or for worse, I have come to the conclusion that it is about 98% common sense and reading BODY LANGUAGE. I've pushed horses past 'scarey' objects just as many times as I've withheld them from it. It's all about learning the thought process of that individual animal. 



AceyGrace said:


> Learning is learning is learning... Across all species and biologically horses and humans DO learn identically.


I disagree with this. I do so with science and the plain fact that each animal (human, dog, cat, horse, etc, etc) has been proven to (at an individual level) learn completely differently. One foal does not learn the same as another, a human does not learn the same as another. There may be similarities in regards to early childhood in species (such as utilizing smell, and taste as well as hearing to explore languages/the world) but aside from that there are very little grounds to say we learn identically like horses when every human (or horse) learns differently. 


I agree that training is to a major extent psychology. However, I disagree with the way that it is presented. There is something along the lines of 'Animal Psychology' (only I believe the official term is 'Animal Behavior and Reaction Studies'). Nature and Nurture go hand in hand. Look up the chimp studies done by Kellog or Terrace. In the case of Kellog the chimp learned ALMOST similarly to their human child, however, it needed special help in some subjects and had a vastly different thought process then the child did. One interesting example was that it could solve puzzles way before the child could even fit the peices together. I won't delve into the language area as this study did have its flaws in this regard. I will say that a horse however is biologically programed to focus more on physical languages than verbal or written, compared to humans which focus more on verbal and written and then a dog which focuses more on verbal and physical. 

Imagine if it was a horse. A prey animal who matures quickly and has a flight response most of the time. A human child typically does not acquire the fight or flight response as early (or to the extent) that a horse does.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

We all like to criticize the popular and tv trainers, but I watch most of them and I gauge my opinions by the results. I really liked Ken McNabb's program where he helped a women whose horse was attacked by a dog while trail riding. He rightly said that the horse was ready to move on, while the owner still had issues. Horses are like that. They want benevolent leadership and they will gravitate to the human that provides it.
In this instance he proved that the horse could re associate positively with a controlled dog in his area. He even rode the horse with (his good BC) dog aboard. THEN, he dealt with the owner fears.
Horses don't keep stone tablets.
Most people with horse problems rushed to buy that horse. Others, like in the example above, get spooked and were listening to that small voice that warns you that something is dangerous.
Having a good trainer intervene can make a world of difference.
Personally, it's a pain in the axx for me to deal with a frightened horse. I know, from experience, what I can fix and what I cannot.
I was insulted by Step#1, suggesting that my horse wants to be my friend. It takes YEARS of work to get a horse dependable and _then_ you can play that game that your horse is your "BFF."
I prefer to buy the horse without baggage. The gelding that broke my arm had baggage, and I didn't deal with it, though I did fix the fear problems with my QH, "Ro Go Bar", (1982-2009, RIP) and he became the 15'3hh horse that ANYBODY could ride and feel safe aboard. He forgot his fears. That's the beauty of a horse, that they can do that.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I can say with absolute certainty we do not understand exactly the way sensory input, memory storage, emotions, processing, recall etc. work in humans (lots of debatable theories though). It is even less certain in horses.

Despite all of the money, time and research done we still have no 100% effective method for phobias, OC(D) or PTS(D) all of which are believed, at least partly attributable, to trauma. (please note all of the modifiers there). 

The non-drug therapy that has the best demonstrable, long term success rate at alleviating symptoms in humans is varying forms of behavioral modification; a retraining the stimulus-response connections. Which in large part is a description of training a horse. These include:

Prolonged exposure therapy
Cognitive processing therapy
Stress inoculation training
Cognitive restructuring
Eye/movement desensitization and reprocessing 

Many of these are already unknowingly used at some level through traditional training methods when dealing with a horse with issues.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Horsedog, 
How do you deal with a situation where you are away from the stables and something occurs that is unwarranted behaviour? 

In instances of fear it is always best if someone can take comand and issue orders (so to speak)
A human who is hysterical at an accident is best dealt with by commanding, not asking, that they shut up. It use to be that they received a slap across the face foot snap them out of it, now you would get sued. 
Bringing in five horses from the fields, four were youngsters unbroken and an older mare, I was opening a gate when a hot air balloon came immediatey overhead. 
This monster was landing, he was about 50feet above us with the flame burning in bursts.
The pilot couldn't see us due to trees. He looked down and I looked up and both of us cussed! 
All the horses were startled amd looked up. One wanted to freak and pull away. I jerked his rope amd said in a low determined voice, "You DARE!" 
He knew from previous experiences that being frightened didn't work because I would continue to to do whatever until he accepted it, so he just stopped and came forward. 
Incident over. 
Now that was a traumatic incident, taking command solved me having to catch the horses again because if one had got loose they all would have gone. 

How would you have dealt with something like that? 

The balloon landed in an adjoining field and once the balloon had been picked up the pilot came to the barn to apologise. 
I looked on it as a good exercise for teaching them to trust.


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## piglet (Oct 2, 2012)

Foxhunter - 
I think you're awesome.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Thank you Piglet, I am known as No Nonsense Nancy! 

Basically I am a lazy person, taking the time to stop the little things stops a lot of hard work later!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Two or three times I have started to post something -- but then just did not know where to start.

So --- I'll just ask the OP this question: How much of this is theory and taken from books, personal 'feelings' about how a horse would 'feel' or think and other information 'out there' and how much is from actual training experience?

How many badly spoiled horses with serious phobias and situation aversions have you actually worked with and re-trained into obedient AND safe, happy and relaxed horses?

I other words, how much of your training methodology is from experience and how much is from how you or someone else 'thinks' it should be and 'thinks' how it 'should' work in horses' minds.

Personally -- I KNOW what works and KNOW what transforms horses from quivering wrecks or viscous attacking monsters and most kinds of horses that are in-between these two extremes, FROM EXPERIENCE. I KNOW what works because, like Foxhunter, I've had dozens of every kind of problem horse you can imagine go through my hands.

And NO! I do not think horses think or learn in the same way as humans or dogs. As animals that are 'hard wired' with strong HERD and 'FIGHT or FLIGHT' instincts and extreme HABITUAL BEHAVIORS, they learn a LOT differently. Many of the behaviors they do that look to an observer like extreme fear are simply a habit. They do it because they have done it for a long time. They talk themselves into it and if their rider does the wrong thing, it becomes a seriously ingrained habit that some will literally fight, nearly to the death, to continue doing it or refusing to do something. It is not unusual for a horse to 'self-destruct' to keep from doing some simple little thing that is of no consequence at all to the observer. 

Sometimes this simple little thing is only the result of some previous successful refusal and not from a traumatic experience at all. This is a FACT -- Not a THEORY. I have seen it happen many times and have had to 'fix' the problem and DID fix it.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Cherie said:


> I'll just ask the OP this question: How much of this is theory and taken from books, personal 'feelings' about how a horse would 'feel' or think and other information 'out there' and how much is from actual training experience?
> 
> How many badly spoiled horses with serious phobias and situation aversions have you actually worked with and re-trained into obedient AND safe, happy and relaxed horses?
> 
> I other words, how much of your training methodology is from experience and how much is from how you or someone else 'thinks' it should be and 'thinks' how it 'should' work in horses' minds.


Very excellent question Cherie. I was wondering the same thing myself. 



doghorse123 said:


> A horse who is experiencing emotional trama and needs to get it out will do this: if you are riding them, they will just start acting out of character. If your horses is normally calm and quiet, they may become jittery and pulling on the bit.
> 
> What to do: I recommend *stopping what you are doing.* You will not be able to accomplish anything with you horse.


I completely disagree. 

If I'm riding along, and my horse starts dancing around and yanking on the bit and misbehaving, I am NOT going to stop riding and let the horse get away with this behavior. It will only spoil the horse and allow them to get away with what they want. 

Or if I am at a show and my horse is scared of the banners on the fence, or the other horses in the arena. I'm not going to pack up and go home just because of that. 

Or if they start bucking while riding. I'm not going to stop and let them "win" from the behavior just because they are having a temper tantrum. 

I don't care if something scary just went by, or if its super windy (which tends to make a horse more "hyper"), or if they are in a new environment, or whatever, I still expect good behavior from the horse. And I will do what I need to do to get them to cooperate and listen to me. Depending on the specific situation, I might work them back and forth on the fence (if they are scared of the banner) or ask them to give softly to the bit instead of fighting or ask them to work in a circle (if they are jiggy), etc etc. 

But I sure am NOT going to get off my horse, walk home, unsaddle the, and then work them in a roundpen. 




doghorse123 said:


> Your horse will probably start to buck and kick and basically throw a temper tantrum. Watch for hooves and don't get close.


They better not. 

I don't care what they do in the pasture when they are on the on time. Buck and kick and play and do whatever they want. 

But when I am handling them, they are now on MY time. Bucking and kicking is NEVER allowed at any time. Especially in the round pen. I ask for respectful behavior at all times. 




doghorse123 said:


> If your horse starts running in circles and not even looking at you, they are dealing with their trauma. Don't move. Let your horse run circles.


????? :shock: That sounds EXTREMELY dangerous. Let a horse run around, without paying any attention to you, bucking and kicking, while you just _stand there_? No thank you.

Again, when the horse is in my possession, they need to pay attention to me. I need their eyes and ears on me, in order for them to do pay attention to me.




doghorse123 said:


> relax your body. Take deep breathes and calm your own emotions. This is huge.


This I can agree with. It never helps your horse if you are emotional. They look to you to be calm and reassuring and relaxed and so you need to act as such and control yourself. 



doghorse123 said:


> Your horse will notice you have control of your emotions and gravitate towards you. Horses look for leaders who are calm and fair. Be that leader. Drop your shoulders and stand still as your horse circles you. (Use caution if your horse attacks often do not turn your back). It make take a while but your horse will come to a stop. Don't move. This is critical. Your horse will see you and notice that you have your emotions in line and have a plan. They will walk towards you. Only when your horse is right next to (often they come up behind you) should you turn around. Let him know he is safe by petting his face if he allows it or speaking softly.


To me, this sounds like a version of "join up". While I know it has worked for many people, I personally am not a fan of it.



doghorse123 said:


> With humans sometimes we hide our emotions so much until we can't hold it anymore. We have to scream or punch a pillow. When your boss makes you work overtime five days in a row and you had plans, you are civil and polite when you talk to him. By the end of the week, you go home and scream. Don't you feel better after you scream?


While horses do have memories and they do remember things .... I don't really think a horse goes through that thought process. They don't have a bad day Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday .... and then "scream" about it on Friday. 



doghorse123 said:


> I'm not saying horses are humans.


Then don't compare them to humans. :wink:

If you need an example, don't come up with a human example because it doesn't relate. Come up with a horse example.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Equine Trauma
For a start I'd throw that 'term' right into the trash can where it belongs. I really don't care who came up with it, we don't need any more stupid names for things
Like Cherie I'm struggling to know where to start
1. If you're (you being in the broad sense and not directed as any specific individual) such a bad leader/horseperson that your horse is having a meltdown every time it comes across something it finds a wee bit scary then you are the one that needs the help and a calm placid schoolmaster to learn on
2. I would never class a 'spook' related incident as trauma unless the horse was physically injured as a result and then there will be some association. What a horse spooks at one day it will probably not spook at the next. If the horse over reacts and has a meltdown it's because you've failed it somehow by not handling the situation correctly
3. I would be very hard pushed to get off a horse and lead it home every time it spooked - that is the best way to get yourself a 'herd bound/barn bound horse. It will take even the less intelligent one's a few episodes of it to figure out that spooking = go back home.
4. Going home and working the horse in a round pen is totally pointless - it might wear him out but he'll have no clue at all why he's doing it because by then he'll have forgotten all about the scary monster thing
5. Best way to deal with the scary thing is at the point of contact, just stay calm, don't reassure the horse because that's you admitting that it's scary, if possible stay on board, don't worry if you give the monster some room when you go past it - going past it is the main objective. If you don't have the ability to stay on the horse then lead him past it with you (the leader) closest to the scary thing - tells the horse you aren't scared and also less risk of getting jumped on
Honestly - If a horse is so bad its suffering mental trauma every time it gets pushed out of its comfort zone you need to go back to basics and look where the holes in your training are.


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Horses live in the moment, if they are well started and trust their leader (the rider) the move on. If they are put in the position of becoming the leader/taking care of the rider, then they become tense. Horses don't love or hate or have temper tantrums, they just react. We encourage them to follow our lead, or we do not. The causes of things like over reactions is almost always caused by handler/rider behaviors, if we (the predator) tense, then they (the prey) is going to worry; if we ignore things/keep on working and relax our bodies (IF the rider has an independent seat/hand which is often unusual) so will they.

Imho round penning is over rated, because the basis of it is that you chase the horse away from the herd, and only allow it to join by your choice. That is not based in trust. It is based in alpha. It might have a place with some horses, but rarely.


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## piglet (Oct 2, 2012)

I just wanted to add something.

AceyGrace - mammalian brains do NOT function in identical ways. (Heck, people's brains don't function identically - thank goodness!)

I've taken Comparative Vertebrate Anatomy. Mammal brains are not all the same, and do not function the same. Otherwise, you would have as good a sense of smell as your dog!


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

piglet said:


> I just wanted to add something.
> 
> AceyGrace - mammalian brains do NOT function in identical ways. (Heck, people's brains don't function identically - thank goodness!)
> 
> I've taken Comparative Vertebrate Anatomy. Mammal brains are not all the same, and do not function the same. Otherwise, you would have as good a sense of smell as your dog!


With regard to learning they do. All brains ( not just limited to mammals) work on basic conditioning, classical and operant. Every creature capable of leaning does so based on these laws. Individual differences will always occur within every species, but that does not deter from the fact that all learning animals do so through the seeking of things they like and the avoidance of things they don't. That is the only way to reinforce and discourage behaviours.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

doghorse123 said:


> I'm not saying horses are humans. * Lets get over this,* horses are not humans, they don't think like humans, they don't react like humans. Clearly, the english language is keeping me from explaining my observations. Horses DO show the basic emotions though. If you can't tell when your horse is ticked off at you then there is a problem with your eyes. We all know when our horse is in a bad mood. To say they don't show emotion is... well wrong.
> 
> _There are some very,very excellent replies on this thread, but I just want to say that this particular post is outright disrectful and condescending to everyone who had posted prior to this post from the OP. I have bolded the , to me, most offending phrases.
> We are not kindergardeners here, and I , for one, even though I'm not among those who had posted, take offense at someone blatantly talking down to others, who ,by the way, the OP does not know (in the sense of having prior exchanges with them via the HF) AT ALL. _
> ...


The term 'Equine trauma' keeps being used. Trauma can be physical, mental, emotional, or all three. So, if you're going to use a phrase to label something, at least be specific, eg. Equine emotional trauma. 

No one is denying that horses have emotions, which seems to me what you think they are saying. So, no one is saying that equine emotional trauma is a myth. They are simply saying that it is probably not as common place or as extreme as you state in your original post. Also, strongly disagree with your stated methods of dealing with it. 

Fay


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

You have just debunked your original post. By allowing the horse to avoid the situation that it is uncomfortable in you are reinforcing the behavior it displayed to avoid that situation. By keeping the horse in that situation and allowing it to calm down and accept the scary monster it will learn that a, the scary monster will not eat it and b, the appropriate response to scary things is to be calm and look to the rider/handler for guidance.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> You have just debunked your original post. By allowing the horse to avoid the situation that it is uncomfortable in you are reinforcing the behavior it displayed to avoid that situation. By keeping the horse in that situation and allowing it to calm down and accept the scary monster it will learn that a, the scary monster will not eat it and b, the appropriate response to scary things is to be calm and look to the rider/handler for guidance.


I never said I don't address fear responses, and I have to say I would not address it in the way the OP has suggested. For me, if my horse is showing behaviours based in fear then I am taking things way too fast.

A horse that is kicked on and forced into stressful contact with a scary object is seeking relief of being kicked. My horses show interest in scary objects because they seek a carrot. 

In both scenarios the horse learns that 'calmness' gets him a reward (relief vs carrot/scratch/pat etc) and in both situations the horse learns to be around the thing it finds scary. Only in one option the horse is thinking about avoiding discomfort and in the other the horse is thinking about how much he loves the things that happen around the scary thing. Same behavioural outcomes, very different emotional outcomes.

I would never just accept that my horse was scared of something and never work on it, but it is my job to listen to him when he says he is scared.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

doghorse123 said:


> I'm not saying horses are humans. Lets get over this, horses are not humans, they don't think like humans, they don't react like humans. Clearly, the english language is keeping me from explaining my observations. Horses DO show the basic emotions though. If you can't tell when your horse is ticked off at you then there is a problem with your eyes. We all know when our horse is in a bad mood. To say they don't show emotion is... well wrong.
> 
> *deep breath* ok. so we have established that horses are not humans. I explain things using human events to help others understand. I am NOT saying that horses respond to them the same way we would.
> 
> If you believe that Equine trauma is a myth, and wonder why you should even consider believing me, then just ask Mark Rashid. He wrote the book Horses Never Lie and the book Considering the Horse and many more. They are both worth the money to buy and read.


 Focusing on the "horses show emotions" didn't you just use the example of humans bottling up their emotions?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You're both on the right track - just approaching from different sides
Questioning if the horse has been pushed too far out of its comfort zone re. its temperament and how as an individual it historically deals with things
Dealing with the incident there and then - how you do that depends again on the horse and to a certain extent on your own capabilities/level of experience
You don't punish a horse for being genuinely afraid (something you have to learn to recognize - all of my horses know perfectly well that there is NO monster in the corner of the manege but if they don't feel like working they can make a great job of inventing one!!!)
You don't over react
You show the horse a way to face its demons by being a leader


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Interesting side thought-

as an example.

Horse is a chronic rearer, everywhere. Always on the crossties. Owner is big name trainer but his own horse is pretty spoiled. One day on cross ties horse rears up, breaks the light bulb, splits his skull open and knocks himself out. Vet comes out immediately, everything is taken care of with no shortcuts horse makes a complete recovery. Horse never rears again.

Now that would be due to trauma, no?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AceyGrace said:


> I never said I don't address fear responses, and I have to say I would not address it in the way the OP has suggested. For me, if my horse is showing behaviours based in fear then I am taking things way too fast.
> 
> A horse that is kicked on and forced into stressful contact with a scary object is seeking relief of being kicked. My horses show interest in scary objects because they seek a carrot.
> 
> ...


If you want to anthropmorhhasise to me this is like a child throwing a tantrum in a store and giving him a treat to get him to behave rather than saying that if he behaves he will get a treat when back at home.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> If you want to anthropmorhhasise to me this is like a child throwing a tantrum in a store and giving him a treat to get him to behave rather than saying that if he behaves he will get a treat when back at home.


In both the scenarios you describe the sweets are being used as bribes.

What it is like is taking your child to a place it finds distressing and only going as far as he feels comfortable and giving him a sweet he likes. Build this up over multiple events and you can have a trip to the place that causes the distress without a tantrum ever occuring in the first place. 

If the child does 'throw a temper tantrum' I have taken things too fast and I would ignore the outburst, not reinforce it. Once the child or horse goes over threshold you are dealing with intense emotional distress whether you believe it to be justified or not. I think it is my job to avoid those feelings, not push through them.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

horses are prey animals, therefore they are afraid of anything above them or strange. They learn that things wont eat them,in the wild the mare teaches the foal. In domesticated animals
Humans teach the horse. Fear is not Trauma. 
I do not believe some of the things I have read since the movie the horse whisperer came out. i think alot of this is malarky , a way to make quick buck. same for the animal psychics that come out and tell you what your horse thinks. maybe someone should write a book on how to become an animal psychic. Chapter 1.. find someone who is gullible and has lots of money


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Fear is 'catching' for want of a better word. 

If an adult sets an example of fear say of spiders, then the chances are that a child with them would also become afraid.

It is the same with horses, if the rider/handler expects problems the. They will get them. 
If, on the other hand, the attitude is onemofmconfidence than chances of problems are minimalist.

I have had traffic shy horses come to me. 95% of the time they frighten themselves by their reaction to vehicles. The other 5% are just using it as an excuse to mess around. 
Both ridden confidently will improve greatly. 
A friend of mine had a lovely youngster she broke herself with my help. 
This horse had been turned out in a filed alongside a road where all sorts of heavy vehicles went past and he would take no notice. Come the day we decided to take the horse out on the road his owner, on seeing a big truck immediately expected him to react and when he started to tense up I corrected him (i was on foot) by growling at him and giving him a poke with a finger to distract him. He immediately relaxed.

Time passed and next thing his owner moved to a livery nearer me. She was having terrible problems with the horse. She was petrified of meeting a tractor. I agreed to help her. 
I had a young girl working with me and wanted her to see how I dealt with this sort of problem so we took the ATV. 
I walked the half mile down the road with the owner riding. All the way she was begging and pleading with me to ride the horse, she was in tears and looked like she was going to throw up. 
My answer to her was that she had created the problem and therefore she had to solve it.
We went to a farm where a tractor and many large cattle trucks were in the yard. I led her round and round, if the horse went to spook he was corrected with voice and a jerk on the rope attached to his noseband or a finger poke. 

At the end of the session I was on the ATV with the horse on the inside of it. We trotted back up the road and when she went to turn into her stables I made her rode on up the hill. She trotted to the top of the hill which was what this horse needed to get some of his energy out,

The next session I had her ride around without me, started the tractor and went from there. I took her down there every day for a week, her confidence grew.
When she was unable to work the horse I rode him out. When a tractor came along the road he started to tense up. I growled at him and gave him a kick and he immediately went forward, yes, he did try to scuttle past it but I corrected that and once past he got a scratch and verbal praise. Next time he sort of half halted as the tractor got near. I just put my leg on and he tried to scuttle when nearly past it. Correction and praise.

His owner started riding out with me, I could shield the horse with mine, not that he needed it but the owner did. Things improved as her confidence grew. 

A few weeks on I was riding her horse and she was riding one of mine. We met a tractor and trailer loaded with silage bales wrapped in polythene. The tractor stopped in the narrow lane, there was a 4 - 5 foot gap to get past. I was in the front and never hesitated and just rode him past. He never hesitated an iota. 
That did it for the owner, she saw that he wasn't afraid and that my confidence was the reason for his non reaction. 
That changed her outlook and instead of worrying about heavy vehicles she forced herself to think positive. 

It wasn't a matter of getting the horse to face the fear but also the rider. Had I ridden him the first time I know I would have had little reaction from the horse that would have been good for the horse but his owner would have been more deflated and assured that she was the one messing him up. They had to face it together.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Every time I pick apart CA, then I come back to some wisdom from him. He says, a horse has a thinking side of his brain, and a reactionary side of his brain.
We are actually suggesting that you approach the horse as intelligent and allow him to CHOOSE to think about a feared object, rather than to REACT to the feared object. Whether the horse reacts out of initial contact or habit is irrelevant.
We are suggesting that with leadership the horse can choose to not be afraid of an object. Just like people, when you make your mind up that it's ok, then you are no longer afraid.
It is cognizant. It is NOT "forever scarred."
That's the same line of thinking that creates "victim status" for way too many Americans, IMHO!


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AceyGrace said:


> A horse that is kicked on and forced into stressful contact with a scary object is seeking relief of being kicked.


Maybe I missed this. Who said to kick and force your horse into a scary situation?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> Interesting side thought-
> 
> as an example.
> 
> ...


That is 'learning from association' where a pain factor is involved. Its a huge part of the horses primitive survival mechanism - if something hurts you don't go near it again!!
The horse in the example might well never rear again but it might also never want to go on the cross ties again


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

beau159 said:


> Maybe I missed this. Who said to kick and force your horse into a scary situation?


I certainly would not get off it and take it home to turn it into a round pen, it will be made to go forward.

In instances of fear it is always best if someone can take command and issue orders

I jerked his rope amd said in a low determined voice, "You DARE!"

I corrected him (i was on foot) by growling at him and giving him a poke with a finger to distract him.

he was corrected with voice and a jerk on the rope attached to his noseband or a finger poke.

I growled at him and gave him a kick

Sorry I can't multiquote atm but these are just a few of the quotes in this thread that advocate physical and verbal punishments and 'corrections'. I don't know how anyone can misconstrue this as anything other than force and 'kicking on' :s


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

This goes well beyond just 'riding confidently' and 'ignoring fear behaviours' (both of which I wholeheartedly agree with)


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AceyGrace said:


> I certainly would not get off it and take it home to turn it into a round pen, it will be made to go forward.
> 
> In instances of fear it is always best if someone can take command and issue orders
> 
> ...


So, how would you have dealt with the situation?


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I do want to say after reading these comments that there is a key difference between beating a horse to go past fear and kicking a horse to go past fear. That being said there is also a huge difference between punishing a horse and doing what JD has suggested. 

Punishment for me is done in any form of anger or reproach. Correction is done with the intent to improve upon. A horse that rears and strikes at me is going to get punished. A horse that is frightened by a passing car and spooks will be corrected. (Or as the example that fox hunter posted).

Sometimes we need to be pushed past fear. We would never be branching out otherwise. And sometimes it takes tough love to do so. I remember I was riding a horse for a lady, we were riding down the road and came up to a mailbox with balloons tied to it. The horse started popping up, spinning, doing everything he could to get away from it. I knew that if I let him go, or stop or dismounted it was going to be ten times worse the next time and get me hurt. So I urged him on with my legs and seat and hands and got him to scramble frantically past the object. We went a few steps up the road, we stopped and he thought about it and then we walked back past it. No fuss, no fight, no fear. In being pushed past it he learned that it was not going to jump out and eat him. 

When dealing with 2,000 lbs animals I've learned my lesson more than a few times. It gets to dangerous to be passive about some things and fear is one of those things that when it gets out of hand will get you hurt.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

How you handle the spooky situation depends on if the horse is really afraid, if the horse is just tense or a bit 'full of itself' or if the horse is just using some inanimate object as an excuse to go home
A nervous horse needs more time and patience, getting aggressive will only make it worse
If you hit a tense/hyperactive horse you'll likely get an explosive reaction that could leave you walking back on your own if you aren't such a great rider
A horse that's just being naughty deserves a smack
It's all about knowing your horse


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

I would never put my horse in a situation where I knew he would react. I would never jab my horse in the neck (or any other body part), especially if I knew he was going through anxiety and distress.

I have always allowed my horses to choose to face their own fear. This involves rewarding every small step forward and ignoring all other behaviours. They have always very quickly learnt that they way to get what they want is to show interest in 'scary' things. 

They then associate all these anxiety producing situations and stimuli with great things and the fear very quickly dissipates. I have never felt the need to growl at, poke, kick or 'make' my horses do anything and I have also professionally dealt with horses that previously bolted, bucked, reared and panicked.

"I do want to say after reading these comments that there is a key difference between beating a horse to go past fear and kicking a horse to go past fear. That being said there is also a huge difference between punishing a horse and doing what JD has suggested."

...I don't think my horses would agree with you on that one. Inflicting intimidation, discomfort and pain is not situation dependent when you are on the receiving end of it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Giving a horse a good slap when its deserves it is no way as painful as another horse in the field will kick or bite it just in play
The calm softly softly approach might work fine for a genuinely nervous horse but when a horse is just messing with you and you almost reward it for doing that then before long the horse will be the one calling the shots


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

jaydee said:


> The calm softly softly approach might work fine for a genuinely nervous horse but when a horse is just messing with you and you almost reward it for doing that then before long the horse will be the one calling the shots


Not necessarily, as I have found it to work with my extremely dominant, strong willed mare better than anything else. I wouldn't call it a softly, softly approach that's being described by AceyGrace, but rather a rewarding positive behaviors instead of correcting the negative. 

The methods you are each describing both work, better or worse to different degrees with horses. But each will develop a different kind of relationship with your horse.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've never had much success in ignoring negative behavior in horses - surely when you allow them to do something wrong then it's as good as training them to do something wrong
It doesn't have to involve hitting them - there are other ways to let them know something is unacceptable


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

AceyGrace,

To use the Multiquote option:

Click on the MQ button at bottom of post, it will change color and be selected to be in your next post.

Click on any other post's MQ button to add it to the list.

Important - click on the post reply button on the left side of screen beneath the last post.

Your reply screen will open with all of the selected MQ's in their recognizable format, separate from each other.

It becomes a bit hard to follow posts without the familiar quote boxes (ie sorting out what you say from what who you are replying to said).

If that makes any sense.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Good intentions without discipline is abuse as much as discipline without good intentions.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

anndankev said:


> AceyGrace,
> 
> To use the Multiquote option:
> 
> ...




you explained that better than anyone!!! I am a dunce about these things.

how can you do this and only quote a portion of each post?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AceyGrace said:


> I would never put my horse in a situation where I knew he would react. I would never jab my horse in the neck (or any other body part), especially if I knew he was going through anxiety and distress.
> 
> I have always allowed my horses to choose to face their own fear. This involves rewarding every small step forward and ignoring all other behaviours. They have always very quickly learnt that they way to get what they want is to show interest in 'scary' things.
> 
> ...


You do not say how you would have dealt with the situation.

I do not 'put' the horses in a situation of having a hot air balloon come a few feet directly over us, it happened.
When a horse puts its head up in the air and is tense and going to turn and run, shaking the rope and growling at it, giving it a command, or a poke with the finger, is not forcing it to do something - *all it is doing is breaking through the brain freeze and distracting them from their mental block.*
It makes them put their concentration on me rather than the object of fear.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> You do not say how you would have dealt with the situation.
> 
> I do not 'put' the horses in a situation of having a hot air balloon come a few feet directly over us, it happened.
> When a horse puts its head up in the air and is tense and going to turn and run, shaking the rope and growling at it, giving it a command, or a poke with the finger, is not forcing it to do something - *all it is doing is breaking through the brain freeze and distracting them from their mental block.*
> It makes them put their concentration on me rather than the object of fear.


you described so many scenarios in which you used force and correction I was unsure as to which you were referring...

In the balloon incident I would have held on to the lead rope tightly, given the horse a rub, talking soothingly and remained very still and calm. Yanking a horse in the face to convince it it is safe makes no sense. The reason your horse remained still was because it didn't want another yank on the rope.

Again, my horses would not agree that being jabbed in the neck/gut/face was simply distracting. If a distraction is all you are after why not use something non-aversive like a whistle or voice cue?


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

AceyGrace I speak from experience as a groom when I say that while that is optimal it is not always possible or safe to do. I remember when I first started working I learned a very important lesson. We had a huge, green three year old come in for breaking. He'd only been at the barn for two days and as I was leading him to his field he spooked at the clicking fence. I let him stop for a few moments, then continued on. He froze again, I stopped for a few moments, soothed him then tried again. Third time he went up and he came down on top of me, then turned and ran off. My bosses came up, grabbed him, dusted me off and lead him through with a method the foxhunter described. He was never 'afraid' of the fence again and never posed a problem. But he did teach me that sometimes horses need a firmer hand or else things go awry quickly. If you watch horses in a herd when there is something that they believe poses a danger, and one of them freezes, another one with either come up and herd it away or make sure that it high tails it outta there. Horses aren't people, and sometimes they need a bigger distraction than the soothing. 

It's very much up to the individual horse how on what it needs. However, I've never had any worse for wear or with any training holes from a bit of tough love. Another part I wanted to touch on is sometimes you NEED to put horses in a situation they react to to help them get over it. My stud colt had a thing about my neighbors lawn flamingos. Don't know why but he would go running off into the sunset at the sight of them. To avoid any further problems every day he spent time either on a lead or grazing in their yard to get over them. Immersion therapy. If I kept my horses at their comfort level we would probably never have horses ridden outside of arenas, or horses ridden down unfamiliar paths.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Incitatus32 said:


> AceyGrace I speak from experience as a groom when I say that while that is optimal it is not always possible or safe to do. I remember when I first started working I learned a very important lesson. We had a huge, green three year old come in for breaking. He'd only been at the barn for two days and as I was leading him to his field he spooked at the clicking fence. I let him stop for a few moments, then continued on. He froze again, I stopped for a few moments, soothed him then tried again. Third time he went up and he came down on top of me, then turned and ran off. My bosses came up, grabbed him, dusted me off and lead him through with a method the foxhunter described. He was never 'afraid' of the fence again and never posed a problem. But he did teach me that sometimes horses need a firmer hand or else things go awry quickly. If you watch horses in a herd when there is something that they believe poses a danger, and one of them freezes, another one with either come up and herd it away or make sure that it high tails it outta there. Horses aren't people, and sometimes they need a bigger distraction than the soothing.
> 
> It's very much up to the individual horse how on what it needs. However, I've never had any worse for wear or with any training holes from a bit of tough love. Another part I wanted to touch on is sometimes you NEED to put horses in a situation they react to to help them get over it. My stud colt had a thing about my neighbors lawn flamingos. Don't know why but he would go running off into the sunset at the sight of them. To avoid any further problems every day he spent time either on a lead or grazing in their yard to get over them. Immersion therapy. If I kept my horses at their comfort level we would probably never have horses ridden outside of arenas, or horses ridden down unfamiliar paths.


I absolutely agree that some scenarios are completely unplanned and unavoidable... those are NOT teaching moments  In the balloon situation I would hold on tight and do what I could but I would be well aware that it is not a conducive environment to teach anything. You just have to focus on staying safe. If that means yanking your horse in the face then I wouldn't hold it against anyone but it should never be used as a regular form of basic training imo.

I also agree that all animals should be exposed to things that they do/might find scary. But this does NOT have to be done by flooding and 'immersion therapy'. It can be done slowly over time using reinforcers which is the best way to avoid huge outbursts of fear/panic/distress. I have never needed a horse to have an outburst to teach it something... EVER


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Every moment is always a teaching moment.  Your horse is going to get a fright eventually, they have a brain and unless you ride in the arena all your life you can't control the environment enough to ensure they will never get a fright. It's about teaching them how to deal with that fright that's inportant. If I am walking along and a rabbit jumps out (or a hot air balloon  ) it is not ok for you to smash over the top of me and head for the hills. If you try to do that you will get a correction. If you get a fright and you snort and shy in place but then I ask you to step forward and you comply you will get a pat and a reward (usually verbal) it's ok for the horse to get scared, it's not ok for them to think when they are scared they can smash you up and head for the hills. By denying them the stressful situations you are just missing opportunities to help them how to manage/control their fear and move past it. It also really strengthens the horses trust when they discover "wow that was pretty scary but we are ok now, I'm glad she/he totally had that situation convered." Next time something scary happens they are much more likely to think "oh yea, my handler/riders totally got this, what do we do now?"


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

It also seems a bit foolish if for example I had a horse that was frightened of a mounting block for example, the horse sees the mounting block and goes "woah man, I'm going to have to knick off cause that's the scariest thing I've ever seen!!" I would say nope, actually you're not going to, I would not allow the horse to retreat, and would also possibly give it a correcting if it tried. We would then walk up to the mounting block and give verbal praise and pats for effort. The horse gets close, touches the mounting block decides that this is actually pretty boring and not scary at all! Then we get on and go for a great ride the mounting block already long forgotten and not thought of again when we ride past. Meanwhile, you've gotten within 15 metres, gone through a whole lot of treats then decided that's enough for the day? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Sorry should proof read before I post!! Doing it on my phone so it's a hassle. Hopefully you guys get the gist.


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## piglet (Oct 2, 2012)

I find it very . . . interesting that a few posts have been deleted recently.

I do enjoy reading people's responses to each other.

Gotta love horses!


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I'd like to also say, horses aren't dumb (although sometimes when I'm trying to convince a yearling that the same weed we passed yesterday and the day before without a drama really isn't a terrifying monster today, I do question that. . ) They understand that the consequences of their behavior (good or bad) are related to their behaviour and not the environment. - if I see something scary and buck and bolt, it can be an uncomfortable situation for me. Vs if I see something scary and my rider asks me to move forward and I comply I get a nice relax and reward. They learn to control their environment by using their behaviour. ALSO, you allow them to release their anxiety by showing them that the tall growing weed really won't try and strangle them so they can breathe easy. ? the biggest problems seem to occur with poor training. (Disclaimer, in no way saying this applies to all horses, but in relation to the discussion of a horse perceiving a correction as a negative experience in an already stressful situation) When the horse sees something scary and it doesn't understand why it gets a correction that's when they can turn into a dithering mess. Something scary is over there I'm probably going to get in trouble and I don't understand why. That's when you get a horse that sees something scary and absolutely flys off the handle and it's got everything to do with poor training, nothing to do with corrections.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Here's another one for you! Since I'm on a roll.  sorry to anthropomorphize the discussion but I feel it's still a good example. If you are in a horrible boat accident and the ship is going down, you're terrified you're going to die! (As all self respecting horses are the first time they hear a strange russling on a trail ride  )One person is sitting hunched down beside you rubbing your arm and saying 'it's ok, its ok, everything's going to be fine.' Then the next guys comes along and goes 'right! The ships going down! Follow me we are going to find the life boats, we will winch them down then sort some oars and row to safety!' Which guy would you follow? The one trying to settle you down, or the one who confidently takes control of the situation and gives orders? Because personally if I was in over my head id love for someone to tell me what to do and how to get to safety, not someone who sat back told me how good and clever I was but failed to help me to overcome the situation. But that's just me!


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Here's another one for you! Since I'm on a roll.  sorry to anthropomorphize the discussion but I feel it's still a good example. If you are in a horrible boat accident and the ship is going down, you're terrified you're going to die! (As all self respecting horses are the first time they hear a strange russling on a trail ride  )One person is sitting hunched down beside you rubbing your arm and saying 'it's ok, its ok, everything's going to be fine.' Then the next guys comes along and goes 'right! The ships going down! Follow me we are going to find the life boats, we will winch them down then sort some oars and row to safety!' Which guy would you follow? The one trying to settle you down, or the one who confidently takes control of the situation and gives orders? Because personally if I was in over my head id love for someone to tell me what to do and how to get to safety, not someone who sat back told me how good and clever I was but failed to help me to overcome the situation. But that's just me!


I am not either of these people in your scenario  I would be the person holding your hand and telling you everything was going to be alright then I would get the lifeboat, help you in it and row to safety  And that's the person I would want to be around too. 

I love the anthropology so now worries lol.

And with regard to the mounting block, yep you totally got it right  I would (and have) spend as much time waiting for my horse to approach the mounting block on his own accord and rewarding every little choice he makes. THOSE are training moments. Ones where the animal can think and process, not ones where he is so far gone he can barely stay up right lol.

I now have a horse that sees a mounting block and rushes right over to it, lines himself up and can't wait for me to hop on board. Seems much more pleasant, pressure free and easy to me. The whole process usually takes about 2-4 10-20 minute sessions... not a huge investment if you ask me. Training takes time whatever approach you use.

As a side note, I wouldn't ever use the term correction. If you slapped me in the face for doing something you didn't like I wouldn't say you corrected me. I'd say you hurt me.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AceyGrace said:


> In the balloon incident I would have held on to the lead rope tightly, given the horse a rub, talking soothingly and remained very still and calm. Yanking a horse in the face to convince it it is safe makes no sense. The reason your horse remained still was because it didn't want another yank on the rope.
> 
> Again, my horses would not agree that being jabbed in the neck/gut/face was simply distracting. If a distraction is all you are after why not use something non-aversive like a whistle or voice cue?


I did use a voice cue "I dared him to Pratt around!

I disagree about not wanting another yank on the rope, he stopped looking up at the balloon and was looking a me.



AceyGrace said:


> I absolutely agree that some scenarios are completely unplanned and unavoidable... those are NOT teaching moments  In the balloon situation I would hold on tight and do what I could but I would be well aware that it is not a conducive environment to teach anything. You just have to focus on staying safe. If that means yanking your horse in the face then I wouldn't hold it against anyone but it should never be used as a regular form of basic training imo.
> 
> I also agree that all animals should be exposed to things that they do/might find scary. But this does NOT have to be done by flooding and 'immersion therapy'. It can be done slowly over time using reinforcers which is the best way to avoid huge outbursts of fear/panic/distress. I have never needed a horse to have an outburst to teach it something... EVER


As for holding on tight - that is not feasible when you are leading five horses - four of which are unbroken and not handled a lot. 
Had I tried to hold him and he had got his head away from me then the lot would have followed his fear and charged off.

It is possible you might say that bringing in five horses on my own was a stupid thing to do. You might think that because you are not experienced with it. I am and have done it many times. The horses are trained to lead correctly so to save on time I would do it on a regular basis. 

I do not, in general training use force, flooding or immersion therapy, only in extreme circumstances or when a horse is distracted.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I did use a voice cue "I dared him to Pratt around!
> 
> It is possible you might say that bringing in five horses on my own was a stupid thing to do. You might think that because you are not experienced with it. I am and have done it many times. The horses are trained to lead correctly so to save on time I would do it on a regular basis.


You can do whatever you think is right. I know we all do things that might be considered risky but I wouldn't say anyone who leads their horses together successfully many times but has one unfortunate incident, stupid.
But it seems you were very quick to comment on my experience with something I hadn't even accused you of...

What you describe is not a voice cue, it is a vocal intimidation. A voice cue would be something like "Watch me" which can be said without the growly threatening undertones.

Your techniques work, I'm not denying that. What I am saying is that they are based in force and I think what the original post was describing was a different way to approach emotional reactions in animals. I advocate that and know it works... from experience


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ....how can you do this and only quote a portion of each post?


re: MQ, I don't know how to select just a portion, in my reply I delete what I don't need and replace it with "..." 



AceyGrace said:


> ... "Watch me" ...


Years ago I went to a Dog Obedience club, Watch me was a command to get two eyes on you. 

The first thing there was to earn leadership and dominance by having the dog learn to submit to you. For example by holding their nose in an overhand grip. And expose their belly (not for a scratch) to you until they are quiet, possibly having to pin them down wrestling with weight/force.

I also first saw clicker and treat training with dogs. Do you/did you practice clicker training?

I am wondering, among those who are very good with 'only positive rewards', if they began with the pressure/release/neg. reinforcement ways. Then progressed thru clicker/treat, then onto 'only positive'.

Wherein, when it comes down to the wire they can always call on one of the previous methods. I believe you mentioned that in the balloon incident with a truly frantic horse you may well have given him a jerk on the line.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

anndankev said:


> Years ago I went to a Dog Obedience club, Watch me was a command to get two eyes on you.
> 
> The first thing there was to earn leadership and dominance by having the dog learn to submit to you. For example by holding their nose in an overhand grip. And expose their belly (not for a scratch) to you until they are quiet, possibly having to pin them down wrestling with weight/force.
> 
> ...


The dog training you are talking about is absolutely archaic and no dog trainer worth a dime would give you this advice nowadays. Leadership, dominance and respect are not terms used in modern training for ANY animal other than horses (incorrectly). I have been training animals professionally for years, from dogs to dolphins, and dominance theory in training has been utterly debunked and replaced with learning theory. Unfortunately it takes a long time to get modern research out to the masses (especially with the cesar milans of the world still making their way into our homes)

Yes, I'm a qualified clicker/marker trainer. Most older horses that I have worked with have had to be retrained completely from scratch so no, I don't work off of pressure/release and then treat on top. I teach solid cues using no pressure/'correction'.

I wouldn't have jerked the line in the balloon scenario but I understand if that's something that someone feels they need to do to feel safe in that situation. My horses are taught the 'watch me' cue in the first few days of work for this exact reason. Sometimes dangerous situations pop up and you need to be as best prepared as you possibly can be. For some that might be ready to jerk the rope as hard and fast as possible. For me that is making sure I have reliable vocal cues conditioned using positive reinforcement.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

None of my horses were perfect when I got them but they soon become 'I'll go where you point me' rides so adopting a positive no nonsense approach can't be all that bad!!!
They will always find something new to 'look goggle eyed' at but I don't fuss over them and I don't give them a treat (that's like rewarding them for being scared) 
I'm more likely to say very firmly 'Get on you stupid thing it's just a 'whatever' and they listen and say 'OK Mum got it' and off we go
Yeah - I know I'm not their mum but I'm the closest thing they have to one!!!!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

AceyGrace said:


> I would never put my horse in a situation where I knew he would react.


I am sorry, bc it sounds like we are all arguing and picking on you, so I apologize if you feel his way.
You haven't been around horses long enough to experience the situation where your horse becomes afraid and you didn't know that this would happen. Someone wrote about leading horses and a hot air balloon showed up. Very scary to a horse! 
Many years ago I was camping in Custer State Park's French Creek horse camp, with my bombproof 4 horses, all on 15 ft. picket pins, and this adult buffalo comes walking down the dirt road (that we drove in on), at slow speed, ALL 2 ton of him. My horses were wheeling and snorting, certainly ALL of us, including the dog, were scared of this buffalo, AND RIGHTLY SO!!!
The Ranger showed up later in the day to apologize. He said that this bull had gotten too familiar with the public, and was slated for slaughter that Fall.
You cannot be the expert on your horses all of the time, and this is why it is wise to listen to those of us that have been there and done that. I would much rather learn from someone else's mistakes and take advice to keep something from happening from someone more expert than me and save myself trouble and injury.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AceyGrace said:


> I wouldn't have jerked the line in the balloon scenario but I understand if that's something that someone feels they need to do to feel safe in that situation. My horses are taught the 'watch me' cue in the first few days of work for this exact reason. Sometimes dangerous situations pop up and you need to be as best prepared as you possibly can be. For some that might be ready to jerk the rope as hard and fast as possible. For me that is making sure I have reliable vocal cues conditioned using positive reinforcement.


As these were young untrained horses no cues had been taught to them. They knew how to lead, stand to have their feet trimmed - and as late two year old horses they would stand in the loose pen untied whilst the farrier trimmed them. 

Other than that they were little handled.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Corporal said:


> I am sorry, bc it sounds like we are all arguing and picking on you, so I apologize if you feel his way.
> You haven't been around horses long enough to experience the situation where your horse becomes afraid and you didn't know that this would happen. Someone wrote about leading horses and a hot air balloon showed up. Very scary to a horse!
> Many years ago I was camping in Custer State Park's French Creek horse camp, with my bombproof 4 horses, all on 15 ft. picket pins, and this adult buffalo comes walking down the dirt road (that we drove in on), at slow speed, ALL 2 ton of him. My horses were wheeling and snorting, certainly ALL of us, including the dog, were scared of this buffalo, AND RIGHTLY SO!!!
> The Ranger showed up later in the day to apologize. He said that this bull had gotten too familiar with the public, and was slated for slaughter that Fall.
> You cannot be the expert on your horses all of the time, and this is why it is wise to listen to those of us that have been there and done that. I would much rather learn from someone else's mistakes and take advice to keep something from happening from someone more expert than me and save myself trouble and injury.


I don't feel picked on at all, it's just a discussion  I always love to listen to other people's views on training because it teaches me what I'm up against lol!

With regard to not being an experienced horse person, I would never claim to be a fantastic rider nor could I honestly say that I have been around horses my whole life like a lot of people on this forum.

HOWEVER, when it comes to animal training I have a huge amount of professional experience (not just anecdotal evidence) and years of education in scientific applications of training with both wild and domesticated animals (many far more dangerous than a rearing horse).

I have worked with many damaged animals, including horses, and the evidence remains intact. Personal individual stories and accounts are great to share in a forum but in terms of empirical evidence they count for nothing. I could share personal stories of 'fixing' bucking/rearing/panicking horses that I have done successfully over the years, but I would rather post/read peer reviewed research carried out by objective parties.


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

If you have trained your horse with pressure/release methods, then yes, ignoring a bad behavior rather than correcting it can be seen by your horse as reward. The reason for this is because you have taught them that you releasing the pressure or doing nothing means they are doing the right thing. You have taught them that if you ignore something then it is right. 

When you work off of a positive reward system you basically teach the opposite. If I ignore something my horse has done rather than rewarding, she knows she hasn’t found the right answer yet and keeps trying new things until she gets my clear signal saying, “Yes, what you just did was right.” The horse is taught to look for answers not to stop the irritating pressure, but to earn something good. 

For people who aren’t used to the positive reinforcement methods, it can seem like you are rewarding bad behavior when you really are not. I’ll use an example of one of my dogs, even though it is not a horse example, the concept is exactly the same. 

My dog is reactive to dogs, people and cars who go by the fence. She will run the fence, bark and get herself all worked up. In order to train this behavior out of her, we will let her out during times she can be watched by one of us. When she first sees or hears something coming on the street her head will whip around that direction and you have a second at most before she takes off full speed to chase and bark. As we are training her, that second that she whips her head around to look at the car/person coming, we click and reward her. Sometimes if it’s a super stimulating thing going by, she will run a little way toward the fence before coming back to get her reward. She still gets the reward even if she wasn’t perfect because she made the choice to pull herself away from that stimulus and come back to us. 

Now, clicking and treating for looking at the stimulus may seem like you are rewarding for the negative behavior since my goal is to get her to mostly ignore them, but it’s not. We are doing a couple things 1) conditioning her to look to us when something highly distracting comes by because she will get rewarded for it 2) making a stressful situation into a positive one. In a few short sessions she has improved vastly. 

Could I have trained her out of this by scolding her, shaking a can of rocks or spraying her with water? Of course. But that would be taking a negative or stressful situation and creating something myself that was more negative/stressful than the original situation in order to correct her behavior. I don’t believe that is a kind or sound way of training any animal, human or non-human.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

TessaMay said:


> If you have trained your horse with pressure/release methods, then yes, ignoring a bad behavior rather than correcting it can be seen by your horse as reward. The reason for this is because you have taught them that you releasing the pressure or doing nothing means they are doing the right thing. You have taught them that if you ignore something then it is right.
> 
> When you work off of a positive reward system you basically teach the opposite. If I ignore something my horse has done rather than rewarding, she knows she hasn’t found the right answer yet and keeps trying new things until she gets my clear signal saying, “Yes, what you just did was right.” The horse is taught to look for answers not to stop the irritating pressure, but to earn something good.
> 
> ...


Perfect explanation! 

I'll also add that the aversives TessaMay describes can have the opposite effect. If you try to scold my reactive dog he will cower, growl and bite if you keep at him. If you simply offer his distraction marker, click and treat he is happy, I am happy and there is no drama.

I have seen many reactive horses do the exact same thing. The owner applies more and more pressure thinking they are dominating their horse and demanding respect and the horse gets so distressed that the reaction becomes more severe and the problem gets worse. After a few sessions with a clicker these horses have walked away calm and happy and the owners finally have a sense of achievement. Win win!


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Here's another one for you! Since I'm on a roll.  sorry to anthropomorphize the discussion but I feel it's still a good example. If you are in a horrible boat accident and the ship is going down, you're terrified you're going to die! (As all self respecting horses are the first time they hear a strange russling on a trail ride  )One person is sitting hunched down beside you rubbing your arm and saying 'it's ok, its ok, everything's going to be fine.' Then the next guys comes along and goes 'right! The ships going down! Follow me we are going to find the life boats, we will winch them down then sort some oars and row to safety!' Which guy would you follow? The one trying to settle you down, or the one who confidently takes control of the situation and gives orders? Because personally if I was in over my head id love for someone to tell me what to do and how to get to safety, not someone who sat back told me how good and clever I was but failed to help me to overcome the situation. But that's just me!


Wish I could 'like' this twice! I completely agree that an anxious or fractious horse needs and wants a strong leader to be able to calm itself. Petting and soothing doesnt really help. Their energy is UP, the human needs to bring their energy UP to match and a little more, so that the horse can feel the human is in charge. Not being mean, abusive, harsh,,just be the leader. 
Also, I'm the complete opposite of 'hold them tight (or tighter) and sooth them. Sonny NEEDS to move his feet when he gets upset,and I lead on a loose rope to give him room to move AND BE CLEAR OF ME. If he was held tightly, it would increase the risk of me being run over....although I still doubt he would because he has learned to not come into my bubble of space unless invited,,but better safe than sorry in an 'uh-oh!' situation.Matter of fact, I can't remember the last time he did more than spook in place both online and under saddle. So, if he is anxious and needs to move, I have slack enough in the line to not only allow it, but to bring my energy/leadership up and direct it. You need to move? great-do some serpentines, hq yields, fq yields, sideways...it causes him to switch from reacting to thinking,,and ~viola, he's calm again. 
On the trail, if he is skeptical of an object, and IF I CAN, I pause to let him look at it, ask him to approach it, use approach and retreat if needed, then let him sniff it. If I CAN't due to a line of riders behind me , I ask him to continue on and expect him to trust that HIS LEADER says it won't eat you.
Good example,,,on Sunday, I was in a search and rescue class with 6 riders behind me and there was a fake plastic deer body laying right beside the trail, I could feel Sonny tense a little, and I just kept my focus forward down the trail, kept my energy up,,,I think I might have given an encouraging/directing squeeze with my calves,and Sonny never slowed down. He did , however keep his head turned and looking at it untill he was well clear of it. I prasied him and gave him a FIRM pat, and FIRM 'good boy' ,,,once we were past it. I think soothing strokes on tensed muscles is more irritating than reassuring,,jmho.
Possibly if the wind had blown, or something near the fake deer had moved, he might have spooked, but I'm pretty sure it would have been an 'in place' spook. I, of course could be very wrong.
BTW, the trainer of the course, praised Sonny at the end of the 2 hour search and said that he was one of the best horses in the class. This is NOT my trainer. I felt so proud of him, and wondered if he missed seeing the times Sonny wanted to argue with me on which direction to go...LOL...we're still working on that..he is very opinionated.

Stay safe.have fun.
Fay


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

TessaMay said:


> If you have trained your horse with pressure/release methods, then yes, ignoring a bad behavior rather than correcting it can be seen by your horse as reward. The reason for this is because you have taught them that you releasing the pressure or doing nothing means they are doing the right thing. You have taught them that if you ignore something then it is right.
> 
> When you work off of a positive reward system you basically teach the opposite. If I ignore something my horse has done rather than rewarding, she knows she hasn’t found the right answer yet and keeps trying new things until she gets my clear signal saying, “Yes, what you just did was right.” The horse is taught to look for answers not to stop the irritating pressure, but to earn something good.
> 
> ...


This is actually a really really good explanation of positive reinforcement, and while I think the concept is good, I don't think it always is realistic.

I think there is a balance and when safety is an issue, I don't want my horse looking for a treat, or a reward, I want him to move away from or toward or not move at all because I, his leader, says so and he trusts my decision. It could be life or death.. 

Horses when in a herd don't offer and then reward each other. They either are the leader or look for a leader.. and move with pressure .. sometimes lots of pressure .. sometimes leaving marks on each other pressure...

A few bumps from my heel or a growl when I really need him to move (or not) isn't cruel .. it's life. He gets plenty of reward, and can earn it regularly, but in certain situations, he just knows all bets are off and he needs to tow the line.

And to humanize.. you can reward your child for not running into the street.. but if a car is coming and he isn't listening, you are going to run over there and physically restrain him .. and if it were me, I'd bust his *** for not listening. Sometimes it's just necessary.. 

imo


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We tried the reward for good behavior with a dog we have that also barks and goes hysterical at anything that moves 
He is now about 10 years old and it was a failure
When we're in his vision and he knows it he will stop and think 'if I don't bark I'll get a treat or a good boy' but it we're not then he just barks his head off.
If I'm in the house and he can't see me and I shout 'shut up' in a loud commanding voice he stops instantly, if I say sweetly 'please stop that and you can have a treat' he ignores me. If I appear and he thinks he's going to get bribed with a treat then he'll stop
I use clicker training with a horse that's learning something new or a genuinely nervous horse but as a focus/feel good thing and not as replacement for firmness when firmness is called for


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

jaydee said:


> How you handle the spooky situation depends on if the horse is really afraid, if the horse is just tense or a bit 'full of itself' or if the horse is just using some inanimate object as an excuse to go home
> A nervous horse needs more time and patience, getting aggressive will only make it worse
> If you hit a tense/hyperactive horse you'll likely get an explosive reaction that could leave you walking back on your own if you aren't such a great rider
> A horse that's just being naughty deserves a smack
> It's all about knowing your horse


 It's all about knowing your horse and understanding just how he is reacting. If a horse is getting too rattled, I don't think he will learn anything by being forced.

Two similar situations on a trail that I ride. 3 large dogs that will come charging to the end of their yard any time they see a horse. My mare slowed her walk down and started to snort but I put more leg on her and she kept on going. Another horse I rode there totally lost it and wanted to spin around and bolt. I made her face the dogs for a minute or two and only when she calmed down a bit did I urge her forward. I had to hold her facing the dogs 3 times before we got past them, but I think she learned something


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Everything is really a learning experience - I know its hard and sometimes removing your horse from a situation is the safest thing to do - roads and traffic being one that comes to mind - but if you allow a horse to run away from or avoid every scary thing it comes across then you'll never go far from your barn/yard
I do understand the concept of rewarding a horse for good behavior and will use it - but you have to find a way to establish what is good first.
You keep ignoring the bad thing, it keeps doing the bad thing because it has no clue its wrong - you could be waiting a long long time for that reward opportunity to come along
You have to use time and patience to teach a horse the right way but you still have to show it what you expect from it


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

texasgal said:


> This is actually a really really good explanation of positive reinforcement, and while I think the concept is good, I don't think it always is realistic.
> 
> I am learning more and more as I go that it is more realistic than it seems. I grew up with a very different method of training taught to me: if a dog needed to learn to heel it was done with a choke chain, for instance. Getting my mindset away from making them behave with a firm hand and negative reinforcement as being necessary for some things has taken time and work. But the more I use positive reinforcement the more I find myself believing and trusting in it.
> 
> ...


 My thoughts inline


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I may have to stop reading this thread soon.

I wonder if you are riding and have a destination how you would direct the horse? If you need to turn right, don't do anything, and the horse does not turn right, how will you get where you need to go?

Alternately, if the horse keeps doing different things to seek the right answer, will you ever arrive at your destination?

Of course in an arena this may not matter much. And I am a backyard and arena rider. Very limited. I want to expand where I can go/what I can do.

I feel I learn more by reading posts by persons that have done that, been there, and are willing to give specific examples, and specific answers so that I can move toward my goals.

Here on this thread I am beginning to feel like a guinea pig, a subject of a study that may be brought up on another forum of someone's peers as an example.


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I do understand the concept of rewarding a horse for good behavior and will use it - but you have to find a way to establish what is good first.
> You keep ignoring the bad thing, it keeps doing the bad thing because it has no clue its wrong - you could be waiting a long long time for that reward opportunity to come along
> You have to use time and patience to teach a horse the right way but you still have to show it what you expect from it


You are teaching a horse what you expect from it with positive reinforcement just as much as you are with pressure, you are simply doing it in a different manner. It's two roads to the same thing. 

When it comes to ignoring bad behavior, you are not just pretending that it doesn't exist and thinking it will go away. You are looking at it from a stance of: 1) what end behavior do I want instead? (e.g. horse won't stand for mounting, I want her to stand) 2) How do I encourage that behavior? 3) Lay out steps required. 

So, if we use the mounting example, I'm not ignoring the bad behavior of my horse moving off by just attempting to hop on while they walk, instead I am rewarding what I want and not correcting what I don't. So, I would walk the horse to the mounting block, let her stand there with me by her head for a few moments, and reward. Then I would progress on by asking her to stand while I moved over to the stirrup, reward for standing still. And this would progress on in steps until you were actually mounting, then rewarding.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I work with quite a few positive only dog trainers (sadly) all very accredited with all the right university pieces of paper and I still think it's a load of ****. I grew up around working dogs, and pet dogs, I've seen how they interact together everyday. I've also seen PLENTY of problem behaviours cured with a few corrections and the dogs go on to live happy lives. They are ALWAYS excited to see you, have a fabo time no worse for ware after their correction. Positive only training is great don't get me wrong. It's great for teaching behaviours. but it's absolutely useless when you're trying to distinguish unwanted behaviour. It just can't be done. So when positive only trainers can't fix the dog instead of recommending that the dog go to a good balanced trainer when it may face a short period of discomfort followed by a lifetime with its owner, they recommend euthanasia because 'it can't be fixed.' It's crazy! Here's a perfect example. I have horse fences (obviously  ) with electric tape, and three kelpie cross border collies. The tape is low enough to the ground that if they try to go under they will get a zap. Everyone tried it a couple of times, no one was happy but now they are more then happy to scream around the yard, sleep next to the fence, if they get taken through the yard they wait at the gate then charge off through. No ones scared of being in the yard, they do understand though that they can't go through the fence. Yep I could have spend six weeks treating them and encouraging them to stay in the yard but that training wouldn't mean squat when a sheep they wanted to chase ran out along the fence line. You cannot proof a behaviour using positive only training.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> I work with quite a few positive only dog trainers (sadly) all very accredited with all the right university pieces of paper and I still think it's a load of ****. I grew up around working dogs, and pet dogs, I've seen how they interact together everyday. I've also seen PLENTY of problem behaviours cured with a few corrections and the dogs go on to live happy lives. They are ALWAYS excited to see you, have a fabo time no worse for ware after their correction. Positive only training is great don't get me wrong. It's great for teaching behaviours. but it's absolutely useless when you're trying to distinguish unwanted behaviour. It just can't be done. So when positive only trainers can't fix the dog instead of recommending that the dog go to a good balanced trainer when it may face a short period of discomfort followed by a lifetime with its owner, they recommend euthanasia because 'it can't be fixed.' It's crazy! Here's a perfect example. I have horse fences (obviously  ) with electric tape, and three kelpie cross border collies. The tape is low enough to the ground that if they try to go under they will get a zap. Everyone tried it a couple of times, no one was happy but now they are more then happy to scream around the yard, sleep next to the fence, if they get taken through the yard they wait at the gate then charge off through. No ones scared of being in the yard, they do understand though that they can't go through the fence. Yep I could have spend six weeks treating them and encouraging them to stay in the yard but that training wouldn't mean squat when a sheep they wanted to chase ran out along the fence line. You cannot proof a behaviour using positive only training.


This is absolutely unequivocally incorrect.

Proofing behaviours is actually a term used commonly in clicker training 

I have seen (and produced before I became properly qualified) many many more animals damaged from punishments and corrections than from reward based training it is those doors that get euthanized on a daily basis

It is more than possible to extinguish unwanted behaviours by ignoring them. Look up ANY research on behaviour extinction and it will tell you that behaviours that are not reinforced will reduce in frequency

Oh and your dog knows you are not a dog. Your horse knows you are not a horse. Talk about anthropomorphism!


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Unless the behaviour is self rewarding. For example if I ignored my dog while it chased, killed and ate a chicken the behaviour will not cease in fact, it would likely escalate.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Unless the behaviour is self rewarding. For example if I ignored my dog while it chased, killed and ate a chicken the behaviour will not cease in fact, it would likely escalate.


Absolutely  then your job as a trainer is to find something more reinforcing and/or manage the situation more vigilantly. Eg putting your dogs on a leash rather than letting them run into electric fencing


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

And yes proofing is a word used in clicker training, it's used it lots of training.  I have clicker trained a few dogs myself, however when proofing, we have passed the training stage, the dog understands the command, they also understand they get a Reward for the command, but if something comes along that is more interesting then me and my reward and the dog decides, 'hey, this game is super fun, just stay right there while I chase that cat real quick then I'll be back and we can continue this super fun game!' That is when I go actually, no you cant chase the cat, if you try to chase the cat you will get a mild correction, how ever if you decide to sit I will mark and treat you the same as before. Without corrections you can only train the dog as long as you are the most interesting thing. Which is useless if a cat runs out onto a road and your dog follows it to its death. I want my dog to understand learning is fun! Trying new things often gets rewarded and listening to me is good and enjoyable. But if I ask a known command, like 'come' and the dog doesn't come that's when it's less enjoyable for him for one split second then it's back to fun learning time! Thus, proofing behaviour.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Why should I need to manage he behaviour or the rest of their life when the behaviour of going through the fence has been extinguished completely with no lasting negative effects on the dog? Now I never have to worry about my dog getting out and chasing livestock, or getting into the road. If your answer is 'tie the dog up' that would be a pretty boring life considering they currently have three acres of yard to roam.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Also, I mentioned it earlier but I'll say it again after your post regarding how you said you trained dogs so poorly they had to be euthanased before you became positive only. If a dog understands why it has received a correction it can modify its behaviour to control its situation/environment. IF however, the dogs receives corrections and can't determine why that's when you totally screw them up. (And you can't say the dog can not understand why it received the correction, if that was true my dogs would never be able to associate the electric fence as being not fun to go through but the rest of the yard and gateways are fine) IMO if a dog or any animal receives corrections with no rhyme or reason that's just animal abuse. All you are going to achieve is an animal with learned helplessness that's likely going to be an absolute emotional wreck. Now that would be a dog that would largely benefit from initialy positive only training. Your average dog/animal however, not so much.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think certain techniques work for certain dogs and not for others. I have a dog who requires training that heavily relies on positive reinforcement. If he ever encountered an electric fence he would never go to that area. He spent the first two years of his life in a laboratory. He was not abused but was never exposed to anything outside a laboratory environment. As a result he was highly sound sensitive, for the first little while even the sound of a soda bottle being opened resulted in him hitting the deck. He takes correction very seriously and when training him my body position being stiff is enough to make him worry.

In contrast, I have a labrador that I raised from a puppy. He is happy go lucky, when he is in trouble his thought process is "she can't be talking to me and I wonder what has her upset, chill out life is AWESOME". He is very sweet but I could hit him over the head with a two by four and he would still be thrilled. He is highly motivated to make me happy in a training situation. Praise was/is almost to much for him, if I want to reward him and encourage him to continue the behavior I have to simply smile at him. Physical rewards (petting) or food would result in all out dancing and a complete loss of focus.

Horses are the same, its unwise to dismiss an entire field or method of training just because it does not work for the animals you have currently worked with. Just because it does not work for the animals you have encountered does not mean it won't work at all.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

When delivering a correction you should never be angry, all that will teach the animal it that when my handler/owner is mad, I get in trouble, instead of them associating the correction with the behaviour, they associate it with you. "When you tense up he gets worried." Of course he does, he's already a bit of a jittery mess now his leader is tense, something bad is happening but what!?!?' - Your dog that was a in a lab for the first two years of its life is a WHOLE other kettle of fish. It's missed out on socialization during its critical period for a start and would have all kinds of behaviour problems no doubt poor ******. Glad you took him on he is lucky to have you.  I'm in no way saying reinforcing behaviour is wrong, it's very very right! It's when you get stuck in that 'can't discipline my animal at all ever and don't want him to ever be uncomfortable about anything that you start having problems. Don't get me wrong, I don't want my animals to be frightened, or uncomfortable, but that's just life sometimes. Things happen that we have no control over and the horse can get a fright. They do need to learn how to manage themselves in those situations and they need a rider/handler they can trust to help them with the correct response so they can relax and enjoy themselves again.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree that you can't spend your life sugar coating your pets life. I also think that you have to define what a correction is for each animal, the intensity of that correction and if the animal is genuinely afraid or pulling your leg. As an example, my horse and I went out riding a few days ago. Simple casual walk through the melting snow. We got to an area in the woods where there was ice under the snow. The ice started to crack a bit and he got to a point where he did not want to go forward. My horse is very forward by nature, so when he does not want to go it is something I took note of. We turned around, the water was certainly not deep but I don't want to have my horse slip on the ice either. We did a few circles in the field, scared some geese a bit and headed back to the barn. Had he acted up by the geese flying away than I probably would have felt worse about not making him go over the snow/ice. 

I think when you have a fear situation you can't stop the world and make sure that your pet or yourself never has to face that situation again. You also should not necessarily make them "face that fear NOW" by flooding them. 

My research dog is a fun little dog to have, but he has cowered at my body language when I was not even aware that I was upset and it was not addressed towards him at all. I used my no-nonsense voice at the cat to prevent him from knocking some glass item on to the floor and the dog hit the floor. The thing he has really taught me is that just because an animal acts afraid does not mean they were abused they can simply be under-socialized. A lot of people see behavior from under-socialized animals and assume it was abused and they put on the kindness gloves that allow the pet to get away with a lot of bad behavior.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

TessaMay said:


> You are teaching a horse what you expect from it with positive reinforcement just as much as you are with pressure, you are simply doing it in a different manner. It's two roads to the same thing.
> 
> When it comes to ignoring bad behavior, you are not just pretending that it doesn't exist and thinking it will go away. You are looking at it from a stance of: 1) what end behavior do I want instead? (e.g. horse won't stand for mounting, I want her to stand) 2) How do I encourage that behavior? 3) Lay out steps required.
> 
> So, if we use the mounting example, I'm not ignoring the bad behavior of my horse moving off by just attempting to hop on while they walk, instead I am rewarding what I want and not correcting what I don't. So, I would walk the horse to the mounting block, let her stand there with me by her head for a few moments, and reward. Then I would progress on by asking her to stand while I moved over to the stirrup, reward for standing still. And this would progress on in steps until you were actually mounting, then rewarding.


 This routine sounds fine in a perfect situation where you have a horse that doesn't challenge you
So the horse doesn't want to stand still to be mounted so that assumes he's moving around
You ask him to stand still - so already you've corrected the fidgeting around behaviour
You reward him for standing still - nothing wrong with that
You go to mount and the horse starts to fidget again
You correct him by taking him back to the block
Reward him for standing still
You try again to get on
He goes to fidget again
etc etc
Smart horse soon figures out how to get those treats!!!


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

jaydee said:


> This routine sounds fine in a perfect situation where you have a horse that doesn't challenge you
> So the horse doesn't want to stand still to be mounted so that assumes he's moving around
> You ask him to stand still - so already you've corrected the fidgeting around behaviour
> You reward him for standing still - nothing wrong with that
> ...


 It has worked for me with my extremely smart and stubborn mare who constantly challenged me with any other form of training. 

Any horse that I was teaching to mount better would already have been trained a 'stand' cue or I wouldn't be getting on them in the first place. 
Because the correct action is marked with the clicker (and the horse already understands this) they know they are being rewarded for standing still, not for moving. That is the entire reason that clicker training is so successful, because you are very clearly marking what is right.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

So in clicker training you get to give a cue or signal?

AceyGracey, in your method can you give a cue?

This is the first I've heard of being able to give a cue in either method.
Only heard of treating when the animal happens to do what you want.


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

anndankev said:


> So in clicker training you get to give a cue or signal?
> 
> AceyGracey, in your method can you give a cue?
> 
> ...


Of course you give a cue, you don't just hope the animal can read your mind :lol:

For instance if I am teaching a puppy to sit for the first time, I am going to start by luring him into a sitting position with a treat by holding it above his nose and moving my hand back and up a little until he sits (or almost sits at the beginning). As soon as his butt touches the ground, the behavior is marked with a click and he gets the treat. As he starts to understand what you want, you stop luring and instead your hand going up becomes a sit signal. At that point you start introducing the word you want associated.

In the same way, if I want to teach my horse to lift her foot when I say "foot" and point, I will start one step up from something she already knows. So, if she knows how to lift her foot when I bend down and put my hand on her fetlock, I will start there and move up the leg until I can just touch the leg briefly at the shoulder and say "foot". Then I'll start moving further away from her until I get to my end goal. Each step of the way, she gets clicked and treated when she does (or at first, even attempts to do) the thing I want. 

When I am introducing something new to my mare, she will generally try a few things she already knows first as she tries to work out what I want. These are ignored even though I do ask for them sometimes because I am not asking for them now or giving her that specific cue. Because they are ignored, she knows that's not what I want and keeps trying new things. It usually takes one to two time rewarding a small step toward it for her to get what I'm asking. I can then move on to more complicated things or longer lengths (like backing further or standing longer).


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AceyGrace said:


> Perfect explanation!
> 
> I'll also add that the aversives TessaMay describes can have the opposite effect. If you try to scold my reactive dog he will cower, growl and bite if you keep at him. If you simply offer his distraction marker, click and treat he is happy, I am happy and there is no drama.
> 
> I have seen many reactive horses do the exact same thing. The owner applies more and more pressure thinking they are dominating their horse and demanding respect and the horse gets so distressed that the reaction becomes more severe and the problem gets worse. After a few sessions with a clicker these horses have walked away calm and happy and the owners finally have a sense of achievement. Win win!



I agree that a horse that is distressed through to much pressure is going to be impossible to have respond and trust you. 

The whole point of any form of training is having an understanding of each individual animal.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

anndankev said:


> So in clicker training you get to give a cue or signal?
> 
> AceyGracey, in your method can you give a cue?
> 
> ...


TessaMay does a great job of explaining proper effective clicker training 

All behaviours should be cued/signaled. The biggest difference in +R training is that the cue might be conditioned after the behaviour has been conditioned.

Here is an alternative example using the behaviour of picking up a foot to demonstrate this.

1. I touch a target to my horses foot and click/treat. Multiple times.
2. My horse associates the touching of the target with his foot to getting a treat.
3. My horse strives to touch the target to his foot more because he wants to get a treat.
4. My horse lifts his foot whenever I hold out the target to his leg.
5. As my horse lifts his leg to touch the target I say "foot".
6. I say foot and hold my arm in the general vicinity of where I want the foot to go and my horse is conditioned to lift his leg because he thinks lifting his leg is absolutely amazing!
7. I give clicks and treats on a variable schedule of reinforcement so that my horse gets a treat 9/10 times, 8/10 time, 7/10 times and so on
8. Treats are no longer needed to reinforce lifting the foot because my horse already loves lifting his foot

From here you can work on asking the horse to hold his foot up for longer periods of time by clicking after 1 second, 2 seconds 3 seconds and so on.

What you might have seen before is called capturing which is another fantastic use of clicker training. A perfect use for it might be clicking when your horse happens to lie down. Catch it enough times and you can put a cue to it and encourage lying down without using any force/manipulation or even luring at all. 

This is how I teach any behaviour with any animal of any species. You don't have to be a fabulous rider or have grown up with herds of horses. You simply have to understand the rules of learning.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

We have definitely deviated from the topic of this thread, which ironically describes how many people who have posted on it have interpreted and misinterpreted the subject.
What I would like to know is, IF, as the OP has suggested, there is permanent damage to the psyche of an animal from abuse/neglect, *what is the remedy?*
I speak specifically about my 7 1/5yo mixed breed (Lab/GSxPitbull) dog, who we got at an auction where there were 7 otherwise healthy 8 week old puppies. We brought her home and it seemed to take forever to get her to not expect to be hit. SHE got over it and is content with her life--inside the house, roams the 5 acres when I'm doing chores, plays with her "sister" (8yo Husky mix), gets loved on all of the time, and sleeps on the floor of my bedroom.
LOTS of animals are abused. Many horses are abandoned to starve. At what point do you say, it isn't worth it bc the animal will never get over the abuse or neglect?
IMHO, it isn't worth it if you cannot reach the intellect of that animal to retrain him. I had a dog like that, who suffered from the "drug" of running. Somebody thought his best place was in the country. HE thought he should be albe to run for 3 days at a time, then come home to eat and visit.
Couldn't keep him in a crate, he'd howl, couldn't keep him upstairs in the house, destroyed things, couldn't keep him in the basement, chewed on things, couldn't keep him on a chain, or in an enclosure, he'd dig under it, ALL bc he craved running more than the companionship of our family and my other dog, "Xena" (Collie/GS). Ironically, Xena chewed the fur on her lower leg when she spent the night at the Vet's (6mo) after being spayed, bc she missed us.
My chickens are now enjoying the chain linked dog enclosure I bought for HIM.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

What are your riding cues for: stop, walk, trot, lope, and turning (say to change directions at a cone)?


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

anndankev said:


> What are your riding cues for: stop, walk, trot, lope, and turning (say to change directions at a cone)?


Not sure if you are asking me or Acey, but mine are the typical cues because I want her to be able to be ridden by anyone and I did not train her from the ground up. 

Whoa
Cluck
Cluck/"trot"
Kiss and move my outside leg back 
Leg, seat and rein cues 

etc.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

anndankev said:


> What are your riding cues for: stop, walk, trot, lope, and turning (say to change directions at a cone)?


Mine vary entirely based on the horse at hand.

For my older gelding who was traditionally trained many years ago I use vocal cues; walk on, trot on, canter, stand and whoa. Similarly to TessaMay I incorporate seat and leg cues that would be commonly used by other riders but there is never escalating pressure or any contact on the reins/bit/bridle.

Alternatively, I have an 8 month old filly who is just starting to clicker train. Her cue for walk on is the appearance of a target in front of her face. In time this will be paired with a touch on her whither+vocal "walk on" for when she is under saddle. Trot on will be identical.

Most things I teach are originally shaped using a target and then physical/tactile cues follow. So the horse never learns from the pressure of something. He only ever learns that the sensation precedes an action after he is already confidently performing that action.

Each horse is different and the amount of cues you can use are endless so it's the perfect opportunity to get creative! 

With regard to corporal's comment about deviating from thread, I suppose we have a little but it is all relevant. What we are saying is that horses that express fear can be trained and rehabilitated in these sorts of approaches far more kindly and very effectively. For me, positive reinforcement is the remedy for 'equine trauma'.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

How do you steer if there is never any pressure on the reigns? I have a horse that was very seriously traumatized. She didn't respond to softly softly at all and in the end needed to be pushed past her fear for her to see that there was nothing she needed to worry about. She has come along in leaps and bounds since then. I was told recently 'it's ok for them to be stressed or worried but it's never ok to leave them like that.'


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

AceyGrace said:


> I have seen (and produced before I became properly qualified) many many more animals damaged from punishments and corrections than from reward based training it is those doors that get euthanized on a daily basis
> 
> It is more than possible to extinguish unwanted behaviours by ignoring them. Look up ANY research on behaviour extinction and it will tell you that behaviours that are not reinforced will reduce in frequency


 Thank you AceyGrace, I posted this elsewhere but again . . .I bought a TB mare that had been roughly handled and was extremely defensive to the point of rushing at me and snapping at my face. She would then pull back and tremble waiting to be hit. I did absolutely nothing except made all my movements around her slow and deliberate. She was completely over it in a couple of weeks and within a few months was actually a very sweet mare


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

AceyGrace said:


> Mine vary entirely based on the horse at hand.
> 
> For my older gelding who was traditionally trained many years ago I use vocal cues; walk on, trot on, canter, stand and whoa. Similarly to TessaMay I incorporate seat and leg cues that would be commonly used by other riders but there is never escalating pressure or any contact on the reins/bit/bridle.
> 
> ....


So given that you are riding your older gelding and cue him to canter from a walk, and he bucks.

What do you do?


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

anndankev said:


> So given that you are riding your older gelding and cue him to canter from a walk, and he bucks.
> 
> What do you do?


My gelding went through a stage of bucking into canter and I've addressed bucking in a few horses for different reasons from excitement to balance issues. The answer is always ignore it!

I always start on the ground and train a solid canter cue by encouraging forward motion (running/clucking/targeting) if the horse bucks into canter at this early stage he would still get a reward because I want him to know that a change of pace will get him a treat

Once that's solid though I would stop treating for canter departs that start in bucking and give lots of reward for buck free departs.

Once they can do this I or the owner or someone that is comfortably sitting a buck  gets on board and by this point the horse doesn't want to buck as much because he wants a treat. There may be the odd one or two but chronic bucking (not resulting from pain) would be extinguished. Rate of reinforcement is still very high at this point.

After that the same process is applied outside on the trails.Clicking for smooth canters and ignoring bucks. This system worked with my gelding and all other horses I have worked with.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> How do you steer if there is never any pressure on the reigns? I have a horse that was very seriously traumatized. She didn't respond to softly softly at all and in the end needed to be pushed past her fear for her to see that there was nothing she needed to worry about. She has come along in leaps and bounds since then. I was told recently 'it's ok for them to be stressed or worried but it's never ok to leave them like that.'


With the same principles as forward motion. I target left and right motion, first using the nose so that the head turns then using the shoulder, hind and any other body part I teach to target. Once the horse knows to move his body toward the target I can pair this movement with a tactile cue (a rein against the neck or my foot against his side) and phase out the target. It takes hardle any time at all and I am never fighting with my horse to turn because he LOVES turning as it has always resulted in good feelings.

I couldn't agree more with your quote, force is not the only way to achieve this


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am free with praise when an animal accomplishes or tries even if it wasn't quite the result wanted. 
I am quick to correct and atop something before it starts. 

Foals on their dams, soon learn that there are times when she will not allow it to suckle. Usually when she is eating a hard feed. If the foal tries to suck she will first swing her body into the foal pushing it away. If the foal persists then she will take a strong nip at its backside or lift a leg and threaten. The foal learns sucking whilst she is eating is not allowed. 
Often when a foal is weeks old it will try to boss a human and swing is backend towards them threatening to kick. The moment that happens I will open handed slap it on its butt to send it forward and make it realise that behaviour is not allowed. I would not ignore it. 

Earlier Cesar Milan was mentioned as being a problem towards modern training methods. If you watch the results he gets with problem dogs (though it is usually an owner problem) and watch Victoria Sitwell results, then there is no comparison with the speed and ease of results and the confidence Cesar's owners have compared to Victoria's. 

I was brought up with discipline, I know my mother smacked me when I deserved it, there was always a warning, then a countdown then the punishment, always a slap on the butt or top of legs or arm. I know she did it but I can never recall what for! Yet I do recall my Father slapping me on one occasion because it was unfair. There were other times he he smacked me but I cannot recall them. 
It might sound as if I was always being slapped but that wasn't so, usually a look from Mum was enough to have me stop whatever because I knew what would follow!

The thing about any form of correction is that the timing has to be right and it has to be fair. I was lucky with both my parents in that they were not only fair, they explained why I couldn't do something and they were united in backing each other up. 
They had to be doing something right because the number of children, usually in their teens, family friends children and relations, would turn up on the doorstep to talk to Mum and Dad about some problem they were having. They knew they would get sense talked to them and problems reasoned through.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

A horse that 'only bucks sometimes' is still a horse that bucks lol. What would you do if you were riding out and your horse spooked at something. I mean really spooked. Anyone who has been riding for some time will know what I means when I say they 'shut off' they are in fight or flight mode and aren't really going to give a stuff about a treat. So your horse takes off down the road heading towards the highway. You have established a good stop 'when the horse wants to' but not under any other circumstances. Nows is the time a bit in the mouth and a well established stop or one reign stop comes in pretty handy.  IMO clicker training is a bit of fun but totally irresponsible to imply you can train a horse only using this method. You are just setting yourself up to get seriously injured or killed and to recommend other people use this form of training exclusively is down right crazy!


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I've dabbled with positive reinforcement in dogs and horses and it's always been entirely dependent on the animal's learning curve. My colt, for instance, is a gorgeous mix of intelligence and stuborness. He figured out positive reinforcement on day two and started exploiting it. (Which was actually kinda funny to watch him purposefully think of how to regress to make his life easier.) 

My dog is well.... a few profanities and even the best of positive reinforcement trainers I took him too threw up their hands. He's got positive reinforcement figured out and will wait for the clicker or situation and then meld it to his situation. My lab loves positive reinforcement as I guess it stimulates him.... then again he's clearly inbred and I'm amazed he can tell a treat from a rock (he often can't lol). 

My point is that it works 50/50. I've never had an animal suffer or be worse for wear with traditional training, and I've never had one be better off for positive reinforcement. I'm like foxhunter. The minuet one of my animals either does or tries to do something good I'm the first person with treats/scratches/whatever their little heart desires. If they're bad though I'm quick to correct them and then move on and hold no grudges. I think neither method can be ruled out as useless as let's face it: horses don't use positive reinforcement, neither do dogs or cats. I like what foxhunter explained about her parents explaining to their kids. I try to do that with my animals (of course this is difficult). I never reprimand without reason and when I do I make sure that it is quick and understood by all. 

I've worked with abused animals on a regular basis for years now (my colt is the first animal I've owned that has not been rescued) and I can honestly say that I've had success with BOTH positive and negative reinforcement. I do not tolerate ANY animal that attempts to bite and/or attack me. I am quick to reprimand and then let it go. The FORCE of the reprimand is what people have to watch and where IMHO a lot of people get it wrong. My gelding was beaten severely and because of that he was extremely headshy. I remember he attempted to bite our trainer when she first got him and she turned around and gave him a light tap on the muzzle with her fingers. Of course he acted like she'd slugged him and backed away. A few minuets later he tried again only less violently and got the same little tap, less reaction this time. He tested the waters a few more times and then when he realized that he got a tailor made, APPROPRIATE reaction from her he ceased doing it all together. He figured out pretty quickly that whenever he got a smack/kick/whatever it was justified and it wasn't in malice. 

I think there's this misconception that negative reinforcement creates abuse. And that negative reinforcement is MALICE in disguise. All untrue. At least for me if you reprimand a horse and it's in malice, you're reprimanding the wrong thing at the wrong time. It should honestly be with the intent to educate (seems contradictory I know). Animals know the difference. If you hit my dog in malice, well, he's not going to be nice about his response. If however you give him a small slap when he goes after a cat or does something that was worth of a smack the he looks up at you with eyes and the lets you rub all over him and play with him five minuets later. Same thing with my baby colt. When he went through his biting phase I gave him a few small smacks when he did it (bit him once when he decided to be a brat), he never became headshy and never got a 'wild look' in his eye, just a little brat stare that said, "BUT!"


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## sueyy61 (Mar 12, 2015)

Our new horses trauma came in the sence that she had given birth to 2 foals which had torn the perineum which was unknow to us when we bought her now she need an operation to replace the perineum she was bought for showing and doing working hunter competitions but his year is a no no she will be given a year off just to build up that repport and show her some love which from her previous owener she seems to of had little off .She's a lovely mare so gentle and at 17.3 h is a big girl sometimes a bit of tlc is all they need


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

AceyGrace said:


> ... bucking into canter ...
> The answer is always ignore it! ...
> I always start on the ground ...
> Once they can do this ...
> ...


From this I get that in initial training you transfer groundwork to under saddle work.
This is not exclusive to your method, whatever you call it.
I am beginning to think it is a combination of clicker and friendship training.
Reinforcement of good behavior is also not exclusive to your method, and is tailored to the individual horse by good trainers. 
A touch, a word, a release, an end of lesson... does not have to be a click or treat. 
Imagine treating while under saddle would be quite an interruption.



AceyGrace said:


> ... *tactile cue* (a rein against the neck or my foot against his side) ...
> 
> force is not the only way to achieve this


Your tactile cue is pressure and release, no?
Every good trainer starts with a tactile cue, not force.
And it need not be a rein or foot.
It could be a change in focus or position of your seat.



OoLaurenoO said:


> ...'only bucks sometimes' is still a horse that bucks lol.
> What would you do if you were riding out and your horse spooked at something ...
> IMO clicker training is a bit of fun ...


I'm all for fun, and have great fun on the ground with horse(s).

Unless someone who is comfortable sitting a buck is riding double with you, I would think the answer is ... walk home.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

anndankev said:


> From this I get that in initial training you transfer groundwork to under saddle work.
> This is not exclusive to your method, whatever you call it.
> 
> It's not exclusive at all and I know everyone here emphasises the importance of ground work
> ...


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

Must admit I didn't read all (or even most) of the responses. I'm a simple soul & don't put a lot of deep thought or philosophy into the what/how/why of horsetraining. I don't spend much time wondering what my horses are thinking about or their past treatment. I expect a certain level of behavior from my horses. There are consequences to "bad" behavior, sometimes self inflicted. My mare was bad to pull back when tied, I always tie high and tight....when she went backwards I just stepped back til she was done and then resumed whatever I had been doing without comment. She punished herself. She was also headshy to the extreme, once I had her vetted and ruled out physical issues when she went back to avoid having her head touched I RAN her backwards til I chose to let her stop & then tried again, and again, and again. I didn't view those behaviors as the result of past "trauma", I viewed them as learned behaviors that had been rewarded in the past. She will tie quietly all day and lower her head to be bridled or have her ears scratched. The OP sounds young and idealistic, life has a way of curing that eventually.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

You didn't answer my question regarding bolting while you are out on a ride. I'm all for being as kind as possible but not to the point it will endager my own life.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> You didn't answer my question regarding bolting while you are out on a ride. I'm all for being as kind as possible but not to the point it will endager my own life.



If my horse spooks (as in on the spot or minimally) I do nothing, wait for him to calm down, give him a pat. Then I will ask him for a behaviour he is confident with (can be anything for my boy this is usually head down). Once he is back in thinking mode I ask him to go to the place/thing that made him spook and touch it. If he struggles with this then I click for any nearness/interest in the stimulus until he feels he can touch it. We just wait. 

With my horses this rarely happens because they know that interest in novel (potentially scary) objects/scenarios gets them great things and they therefore get great feelings every time they see something new or strange.

Bolting is another one of those potentially dangerous moments which is NOT a teaching moment! I would do what I had to do to be safe. HOWEVER I would not take a horse known to bolt out on trails under saddle thinking that he will probably bolt. That is setting your horse up for failure and any punishment (pulling on the reins abruptly and hard) only tells him that he was wise to bolt because that experience was so unpleasant, why on earth would he want to stick around :s The only reason he might stop bolting over time is because the fear of yanking the reins is greater than the fear of the original scary thing. I do a huge amount of in hand reinforcing around novel objects to teach the correct way to interact with new things before ever expecting a bolting horse to face his fear. It's way too much too soon. And I assure you, much safer!

Sorry quoting on my phone again and it gets unhappy lol


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

What would you do to be safe exactly? If your horse has no concept of pressure on his mouth then you can't pull him up. The horse already thinks this is a life or death situation and now it has this horribly uncomfortable pressure on his mouth that he has never experienced before you are highly likely to make the situation worse. My horse does understand escalating pressure, and can pair it with a behaviour so if I really got into trouble I could up the anti to get through to the horse and it understands that that pressure is associated with not stopping. They don't think it's got anything to do with the scary object otherwise the next time I asked my horse to stop they would take off like a cracker expecting the scary thing to come for them. Any horse can bolt. It's nieve to think otherwise. If my horse bolted I am comfortable I have the tools I need to get control of the horse and the situation and to then help my horse either calm down, or get the hell out of the way in the event that a car was hurdling towards us or I encounted something else that really was a dangerous situation. You don't look at these high stress situations as a teaching moment and just 'do whatever you can to be safe' I look at those scary moments knowing I have the tools to get through to a frightened animal and help him to not kill himself and me.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

OoLaurenoO said:


> What would you do to be safe exactly? If your horse has no concept of pressure on his mouth then you can't pull him up. The horse already thinks this is a life or death situation and now it has this horribly uncomfortable pressure on his mouth that he has never experienced before you are highly likely to make the situation worse. My horse does understand escalating pressure, and can pair it with a behaviour so if I really got into trouble I could up the anti to get through to the horse and it understands that that pressure is associated with not stopping. They don't think it's got anything to do with the scary object otherwise the next time I asked my horse to stop they would take off like a cracker expecting the scary thing to come for them. Any horse can bolt. It's nieve to think otherwise. If my horse bolted I am comfortable I have the tools I need to get control of the horse and the situation and to then help my horse either calm down, or get the hell out of the way in the event that a car was hurdling towards us or I encounted something else that really was a dangerous situation. You don't look at these high stress situations as a teaching moment and just 'do whatever you can to be safe' I look at those scary moments knowing I have the tools to get through to a frightened animal and help him to not kill himself and me.


The reason you use pressure is because it is aversive. "If it weren't aversive it wouldn't work" is the key motto when explaining why reward based training is a kinder safer option. Therefore if I do ever pull on my horses mouth of course he will stop making forward motion, in exactly the same way as a brand new horse who never wore a bridle reacts when you tug on it. 

In any case I would avoid that at all costs and would rather redirect attention. All of my animals are conditioned to interupter markers that are deigned to snap them out of their brain freeze and bring them back to me. (This helps me avoid jabbing them in the neck as described earlier). I have more than enough tools in my tool box to keep us all safe. Just because they don't involve pain and force doesn't mean they don't work! I wonder why if your horses respect you so much and see you as leaders why would you need to inflict so much pressure on them. Especially when there are so many options that involve cooperation.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

AceyGrace said:


> ...
> Your descriptions of negative versus positive reinforcement prove that you do not fully understand the principles ...



First I do apologize for getting you mixed up with the OP, who has not been around this thread for a while, and for taking the Original Post as your own words.

As far as the original cue, tactile or pressure/release. Do you not release the rein or foot when the correct response is offered? 

It is true I do not fully understand -N, +P. Although I have/am trying. I seems to me that it is a 3-point line of sorts and needs at least one of each (ie a - and a +) (either added or taken away) to be equal.

I have a had a career in bookkeeping and tend to think in spreadsheets and flowcharts. 

If the Debits do not equal the Credits, then you are not in balance.

A debit increases an asset, while it decreases a liability.
A credit decreases an asset, while it increases a liability.
If assets are greater than liabilities, then your net worth increases.

So I am thinking along the lines that there are 3 components, not 2.

Assets = Liabilities + Equity

Apologize that I cannot express my question properly. I've read this and it does not make sense, but I have to go take care of a sick horse (not mine).


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Im guessing you haven't had a lot of experience breaking horses by that statement. The first time a horse feels pressure it won't 'just stop' a fresh horse that has never had any pressure when pressure is first applied they don't understand what that pressure means and unless setup 'to win' are likely to try a whole range of different behaviours before hitting the right answer. To imply it would be fine to pull on your horses mouth for the first time while it is bolting and expecting the horse to understand is crazy lol. Also, what makes you think I 'have' to use so much force to ask my horse to do something. My horse responds to very slight cues the same as yours the difference is if I need it, I have it.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

anndankev said:


> First I do apologize for getting you mixed up with the OP, who has not been around this thread for a while, and for taking the Original Post as your own words.
> 
> As far as the original cue, tactile or pressure/release. Do you not release the rein or foot when the correct response is offered?
> 
> ...


This post made my head spin haha but I think I see what you're saying and I think you're on the right track 

This may get a little off topic so sorry to everyone else 

Operant conditioning works on 4 quadrants

-positive reinforcement
-negative reinforcement
-positive punishment
-negative punishment

positive means to add something
negative means to take something away

reinforcer = something that increases the chances that a behaviour will be repeated

punisher = something that decreases the chances of a behaviour being repeated

Therefore, 

positive reinforcement means to add something that will increase the chances that the horse will repeat the behaviour (eg: giving a treat when the horse moves forward to increase the chances that the horse will move forward again in future)

negative reinforcement means taking something away that will increase the chances that the horse will move forward (eg: releasing pressure when a horse moves forward to increase the chances that the horse will move forward again in future)

positive punishment means adding something that will decrease the chances that the horse will repeat a behaviour (eg: giving a smack when the horse bites to decrease the chances that the horse will bite again in future)

negative punishment means taking something away that will decrease the chances that the horse will repeat a behaviour (eg: taking away a hay net when the horse bites to decrease the chances that the horse bites again in future)

The most important part that takes the most time for my clients to get to the bottom of is; YOUR HORSE DECIDES WHAT IS REINFORCING AND WHAT IS PUNISHING, NOT YOU!

Example: If I don't like being hugged, then giving me a hug is positive punishment. Stopping hugging me is negative reinforcement.
If I love being smacked in the face then smacking me in the face is positive reinforcement lol.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

anndankev said:


> ...
> A touch, a word, a release, an end of lesson... does not have to be a click or treat. ...





AceyGrace said:


> ...
> Absolutely and I have consistently maintained that food is not the only reinforcer. a touch (as long as you mean a scratch/rub) is a positive reinforcer. *A release or end of lesson would be a negative reinforcer. If you take something away that the horse does not like* in order to increase the likelihood of a behaviour you are negatively reinforcing that behaviour. ...





anndankev said:


> ... Do you not release the rein or foot when the correct response is offered? ...





AceyGrace said:


> This post made my head spin haha but I think I see what you're saying and I think you're on the right track  ...
> 
> Operant conditioning works on 4 quadrants ...
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for thinking this through, I think you have passed bookkeeping 101. LOL

I was thinking it was a square, but at the moment of writing forgot about the P and was only thinking about the R, +, and -.

Most interesting is your comment that the horse decides what is punishing and what is reinforcing. However; he cannot say.

*Couldn't it be said that horses love being released so a release is a positive reinforcement?*

Well, I am about blue in the face, talked out, and no doubt making a fool of myself.

I'll have to conclude it is all a matter of opinion, and everyone has the right to their own opinion. And semantics.

Somebody slap me in the face to snap me out of it. Ha Ha

Good night.


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## AceyGrace (Jan 21, 2014)

Almost! 

The pulls on the rein to stop forward motion then releases the rein when the horse stops.
So, the rider takes away an aversive (pulling on the rein) in order to increase the likelihood that the horse will stop when he feels a lift of the rein.

So yes it is absolutely a reinforcer!... BUT it is negative because you are taking something away that the horse dislikes rather than adding something he likes.

There is controversy around the use of -R because in order to utilise it you usually have to apply an aversive (pulling on reins/squeezing legs etc) first which would of course be positive punishment.

It's been great hearing everyone's opinions! I'm afraid you will have to rely on other members to slap you in the face anndankev! haha


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

No. Just no. OP, you are overusing and overthinking this.

I can't agree with anything you wrote either. And dangerous to people that have no clue as to what they are doing with horses, when someone writes something like this.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

All the 'softly softly catchy monkey' is all well and good if you are not dealing with multiple horses. 

People go on and on about 'natural' - look at Mother Nature and you will see that she is an exceedingly hard task master. 

In a herd a horse learns from others correcting, if they don't follow the rules then they get hurt by the other horses. 

I would rather give one correction _as hard as necessary and with good timing_ than mess around for hours and hours 'being nice'.

Punishment should fit the crime and, if a horse is handled correctly from the outset then corrections are rarely needed - if they are then usually a verbal is enough.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.


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