# Horse goes down after Saddling



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

It sounds like the nerve (that Endo engages when using the TAP) is being affected by the saddle. Perhaps the saddle is causing him pain, hence the bolting reactions, and is pinching so much that it's now affecting the nerves. Have you had a certified saddle fitter out?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

From what endo describes there is no nerve with being pinched. Its the shutting down of the flight response in coordination with claustrophobia. He explains it the release of endorphins. I've been trying to figure out why Jake would be going through the same thing, because if it is the same thing, I wonder what is making him panic? 

I have not had a saddle fitter out. I have had a vet and chiropractic look at his back and they said he was fine. The only thing is that I think if it was a saddle problem, the issue would be constant? I also don't think it would happen if I have not even tightened the cinch yet. He starts acting like this when I have the cinch up against his belly, before I even tighten it. I have not changed saddles/pads anything in over 4 years it only happens rarely, but once he does it once it sticks around for a while.

Maybe I should try and record it tomorrow when I go out for my ride. Now that he started I'll have at least two weeks of working around it.


----------



## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Do you girth up in the barn or outside?


My trainer told me she knew one horse who did the exact thing yours is doing. He would fall out if saddled inside the barn, but if one waited to girth him up outside in an open space where he wasn't tied, he was fine. :shock:


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Brighteyes said:


> Do you girth up in the barn or outside?
> 
> 
> My trainer told me she knew one horse who did the exact thing yours is doing. He would fall out if saddled inside the barn, but if one waited to girth him up outside in an open space where he wasn't tied, he was fine. :shock:


Inside, outside, tied to a trailer, tied to post, cross tied, ground tied, no halter at all.....all were with the same results. I wish it was that easy of just going somewhere else. o.0 I haven't been able to figure out how to avoid it.

..................................

Anyhow, I found a video I made of a very mild case a few years ago. There is a bunch of text (feel free to skip I over analyzed everything) that you can ignore. He is ground tied for this clip, its horrible quality and I would skip to 0:30 if I were you. =P






Yes Jake had an accident in cross ties, that was the first time he went down while saddling. I hadn't connected his bolting to a saddling issue then. So the cross ties issue did not start everything.


----------



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Have you tried different saddles? Cinches? Saddle pads? Have you tried it without the breastcollar? 

I would switch it all up. Try a longer girth, a different saddle and a different pad. Leave the breast collar off. Also, try putting your saddle and cinch back a bit.


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

subbing. I dont know enough to give you advice, but I want updates on how he's doing! Poor guy. I'm glad he has someone who's willing to try and fix him instead of just toss him aside!


----------



## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

maybe try to girth him up really slow.. i've seen several horses who were apposed to be being girthed up quickly.. once the girth was in contact with skin we could only go up one hole at a time. my mare actually did nearly lye down once while i girthed her up. she seemed to be gassy(maybe had gas colic im not sure) but once i moved her round she came out of it fine.


----------



## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

well after watching the video. im not sure,i can tell you girthed him up pretty slowly. do you have a bareback pad?? you could put that on him and girth him up,to help you see if it is the saddle. and i'll second the try with out a breastcollar, i like a roping Girth on my mare it seems to spread out the pressure better as it is wider.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

What I see in the video is very normal, up to when he starts to waver back and forth a bit. He looks relaxed and well trained to ground-tie, hence not shifting around when you "park" him. I don't see a tense horse, in fact I really don't see much put of the ordinary save for the slight wavering. 
Please - please never ever do up the breastcollar first - that is very unsafe. If he were to bolt or do something stupid, the saddle would be along for the ride, but unstable. 
Would be interested in hearing what Kevinshorses would say to this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

corinowalk said:


> Have you tried different saddles? Cinches? Saddle pads? Have you tried it without the breastcollar?
> 
> I would switch it all up. Try a longer girth, a different saddle and a different pad. Leave the breast collar off. Also, try putting your saddle and cinch back a bit.


I use three different saddles on him, and all three have had the same issue. One close contact (english), a roper saddle and my barrel saddle. I can see if the pad / cinch makes a difference. (I don't use any breast plate or martingale for english)

Endiku - Yeah he's not going anywhere without me. =) Other than the 2 acre pasture when he retires. 

jwells84 - I spend a good 5-10 minutes slowly cinching him up to avoid the situation. I think it helps but doesn't always stop it. I do have a bareback pad, I'll have to see if he does it for that. 

JustDressageIt - It looks normal, but he is pretty much frozen and out of it. Its hard to show it without pushing him over the edge. Its just a snap, he freezes, won't move until I ask him to. Which he goes over backwards or bolts forward. I'm forcing my sister to come with a camera tomorrow. I'll see if he acts like he did today. 

Yeah, >_< Its how I used to saddle. I thought I was clever in slowing up the part where I cinched up. I then thought about the mechanics of it and I no longer do the breast collar first. No worries, I understand the dangers and changed the order of how I saddle up.


----------



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Strange question. Is that him bowing in your avatar? How did you teach him to bow while riding? Is it possible that somehow, you are telling him to bow without knowing it?


----------



## ilovesonya (Oct 12, 2009)

subbing.. this seems interesting. i dont have any advice to help with him though, sorry.


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

corinowalk said:


> Strange question. Is that him bowing in your avatar? How did you teach him to bow while riding? Is it possible that somehow, you are telling him to bow without knowing it?


Yeah, he bows under saddle and on the ground. He also lays down. Honestly though it has helped with keeping him calm in this situation. He used to panic, rear up and fall over. He even flipped over a few times. Now he just shuts down, goes into the bow and lays/falls down from there. Instead of throwing himself down. 

His cue for laying down and bowing are tapping/holding one of the front legs and then asking him to shift his weight back. He does lay down when frustrated but its different. He will hold up one front leg and fold his back legs first and then lay down. If he is told to bow/lay down he is very very calm. While when he is being saddled, he is freaking out. He will thrash and try to get up immediately.


----------



## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I've seen this happen with two different horses. One was our TWH when I was first getting her used to being saddled, which went away on it's own. The second was another boarder at our stable. When he started to go down, he was brought back forward each time until he quit trying to go down. I don't know why they do it or any advice to get them to stop.


----------



## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

What is going on with your horse and other horses who do the same thing is a form of "balking" which means the horse "stops short and refuses to proceed, refusing or likely to refuse to proceed or act as directed or expected" credited to Webster's Dictionary. Balking is also known as just being plain contrary. I've known of some horses who do the same thing when they are being asked to load up in a trailer. About the only thing you can do is let your horse work through being moody and contrary. By no means let his antics sway you from keeping on doing what you want him to do, because that is exactally what he wants you to do.


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

usandpets said:


> I've seen this happen with two different horses. One was our TWH when I was first getting her used to being saddled, which went away on it's own. The second was another boarder at our stable. When he started to go down, he was brought back forward each time until he quit trying to go down. I don't know why they do it or any advice to get them to stop.


Hmm. I thought it would be something seen out of horses that are being started. Jake is 20 years old and has been rode all most all of his life as far as I have known. Well at least I know other horses do it to, thanks. 



candandy49 said:


> What is going on with your horse and other horses who do the same thing is a form of "balking" which means the horse "stops short and refuses to proceed, refusing or likely to refuse to proceed or act as directed or expected" credited to Webster's Dictionary. Balking is also known as just being plain contrary. I've known of some horses who do the same thing when they are being asked to load up in a trailer. About the only thing you can do is let your horse work through being moody and contrary. By no means let his antics sway you from keeping on doing what you want him to do, because that is exactally what he wants you to do.


Its just so odd that I'm pretty sure he isn't doing it to avoid work. He always has been fine after these episodes and always has been rode directly after. (After a check of soundness of course). He has laid down when frustrated and is avoiding but it is different than this. When he is frustrated everything is calculated and planned and you can see him thinking about it. This is a panic, he gets a look on his face that you can tell 'no ones home' and when he snaps out of that he panics so bad that he trips over his own feet and falls over half the time.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I have to agree with Cori's line of questions.

You point things out in your video that to me look more like him trying to do what you have asked him to do. You move his leg forward and then you say 'see, he will not even move his leg to get more comfortable'. He is not moving his leg back because you have told him to stand with it there.

To me it seems like he is getting confused at what you want him to do. Is it do one of my tricks time or not, etc.


----------



## Tamibunny (Jan 14, 2011)

We had a horse come in the barn for training a couple years back who did the exact same thing. I thought I nearly killed him the first time I went to ride him. We ending up putting a fuzzy girth cover over the girth. And also doing what your doing with tightening it very slowy. I would leave it on hole one. After I bridled him, i would go to hole 2, walk out to the ring, hole three. the I would stretch his front legs out to make sure there was no pinching skin. Get on and as he was walking I would tighten it to hole 4 while in the saddle. He did get better about it over time. He was just sensitive.

Too me in that video it looks like he knows whats coming and freezes, your just going to throw the saddle on and clinch it up real quick. IMO in the second video you tightened it way to quickly for him. Didnt give him a chance to get his brain back. Good luck with him though, seems like your doing a good job on figuring him out and wanting to do whats best for him.


----------



## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Horsesdontlie said:


> Hmm. I thought it would be something seen out of horses that are being started. Jake is 20 years old and has been rode all most all of his life as far as I have known. Well at least I know other horses do it to, thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> Its just so odd that I'm pretty sure he isn't doing it to avoid work. He always has been fine after these episodes and always has been rode directly after. (After a check of soundness of course). He has laid down when frustrated and is avoiding but it is different than this. When he is frustrated everything is calculated and planned and you can see him thinking about it. This is a panic, he gets a look on his face that you can tell 'no ones home' and when he snaps out of that he panics so bad that he trips over his own feet and falls over half the time.


 The second horse that I mentioned had been rode for many years. He too had only done it for a short while then quit. A while later, like a few years, he started again. He doesn't do it everytime he is saddled though. At least this is from what we were told by his owner. I have seen his most recent episodes and he seems to have come out of it again.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

What happens when you get on him bareback? I am asking as I want to know if it is cinch issue?


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Still trying to get video to show differences in his trick cues and his freak outs. I guess its just something hard to explain with text. 



AlexS said:


> What happens when you get on him bareback? I am asking as I want to know if it is cinch issue?


Nothing. He never does this when I'm riding bareback. He only does this immediately after putting the saddle on and putting up the cinch.


----------



## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

I would bet money on a pinched nerve. He is defanitly in pain.


----------



## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

My Goodness, what a mystery that is going on with Jake!! I accept that I can be wrong, but I still do think it is a bio-mechanic reaction to being cinched up either gradually or in increments. Just a suggestion to try or not, next time you cinch him up give him a kick of your leg or knee to his mid-section at about the cinch area. If he is sucking up his lungs when you tighten the cinch that will encourage him to take a breath to exhale. Oxygen deprivation will cause loss of conciousness which might be possible with Jake.


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Myhorsesonador - I thought that too for a while, until it became inconsistent. I would think that if he was in pain, he would always be in pain. So I would have a bad ride or he would keep acting up if the saddle stayed on. Or he would do it every time I saddle up. =\

Candandy49 - I have recently watched him, and he is actually breathing while I cinch up...so he isn't blacking out from a lack of oxygen. I would do that with my friends mare who is cinchy and acts all wonky when first saddled. Sometimes she tries to lay down but just slap her on the under side of her belly and she stops it quick. But with Jake it might push him into to flipping over.


On another note I got another video that shows a little bit more. I am provoking him into doing it here. I know his mood was good when I saddled and that he wasn't going to have a major freak out. I also show that his bowing, stretching his legs, picking up his legs and backing up are not associated with this problem.


----------



## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

ok a couple of question, Have you tried girthing him up with a bareback pad? and or using differnt size, wider or smaller girths?

i've watch the video several time, and noticed he seems fine right after you grith him, but when you walk to his head to strech his left front leg, he puts his ears back. makes me think he's either resentful of having his leg stretched or maybe there is a comfort issue with that leg.

It doesnt nessasserliy have to be pain. at least in my own personal case when i've have a pinched nerve in my shoulder it feels more like a tingling and travels for quite a ways, normally down my arm and into my back. 

Given the info (from a massage therapist who did equine and people) that horses are not that differnt in structor than us, you might have his shoulder evualated. have your equine chiropractor or I'd really recommend an equine masage therapsit look at him,

What I also noticed was his hind legs. he seems to want one of them "resting" the majority of the time, so when you pick up his front leg, he essecianly is only standing on 2 legs. which would of course throw him off balance. I'd have the Therapist or chiropractor or even vet check out his hips and stiffles.

You said a while back he was 20 years old, is he on joint supplements?

It could also verywell be a way of him saying "hey i dont really want to do this today"(getting out of work)
IMO: there where several times that he "was going down" that he seemed to catch himself and try to stay standing,but again it is very hard to say what is going on inside the horse.

I Hope i've shed some light or given you something differnt to think about. I am curious, if you just walk him off after saddling(w/o streching his legs) what happens?
Keep us posted! Hope you find a fix!


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Jwells84 - Let see if I can get all the questions, you did have a lot.

Bareback pad - He didn't seem to mind, got a little stiff but didn't make any inclination to wanting to go down. 

Girths - I have been trying to borrow a few different kinds of girths. So far they all have been relatively the same width (can't find wider ones) and have tried cotton, mohair, neoprene, and leather. All obtained the same results. 

The leg/ear thing - Hmm thats not something I have thought about. He has always very clear on showing his expressions with his ears. When he is thinking he tends to have them back, and when he relaxes he puts them on me. He also tries his best to keep at least one ear on me at all times. I will have to watch it and see if he is continuous with it. When he is in a calmer mood like he is in this video, he will only go down if I lift a leg up. When he is more stressed, even doing things like backing up makes him loose balance and fall over. He RUNS backwards, gets his back legs far too underneath himself, sits and rolls over. During these times I have done nothing with his legs. Plus he was getting grumpy with being messed around with this much. I had several minutes trying to get something on video, lol so a lot of saddleing, unsaddling backing up going forward listing his legs. I was pestering him. 

Resting hind leg - He does that, which counts for being off balance. If he has just been cinched, he won't put that leg down (it changes from left to right leg he rests on) and stays unbalanced. While every other time he will balance himself out just fine, and will put weight on that leg. He has had his back and hips checked out and given the clear. 

Joint Fluid - Yup, 15ml a day. 

Getting out of work - On days like this it could be. But the other times when he completely panics? There's a difference. For all I know his complete freak outs could be a little different than him trying to lay down while being saddled....idk. I've had a few people suggest that it may just be some mental problem as well, a long with a few other things that are his personality. 

There are some things to think about. Thank you =) Honestly I don't think there is a way to fix this, just working around it.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Have you run a mineral panel on him? 

Originally I thought you might be referring to something sometimes called "cold backed", which seems to be a disputed issue with some people believing it to be a physical reaction to the saddle, and some believing it to be behavioral. 

Watching your videos , I've changed my mind a little, partly because i have the understanding that this is a new behavior for him, but wondering if it might be mineral related, specifically selenium. I have seen so many presentations of deficiency,from rehabbing horses, so I've stopped being surprised when it pops up as an issue for odd behaviors... it almost always seems to be the last thing people think of.

I know with our senior, as he aged, we had to increase his mineral supplement because he was no longer absorbing it the same way as he had when he was younger.

Selenium deficency is known to cause : lethargy, hypersensitivity to touch or pressure, stiffness, achyness, mood changes (among other things) 

There is also a major artery? (or vein, I can never remember) which runs through the girth area. In some horses, it can cause a fainting effect if the girth is too tight, or two narrow.

I have a young mare with this issue, but she is much better in a fluffy girth (or WIDE string cinch if we're going western). She actually does something similar to your gelding, but, not nearly as gradual. (which might be that she is pretty green, and your boy has been well trained)

Do those are my thoughts, for what they are worth.


----------



## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

sorry for all the questions,but those where the things that poped up in my head as i watched the video. I do agree with you that his Panic is not to do with his wanting getting out of work.

Since he is an older horse, this issue could be a number of things, from something that happened in past ( many years ago) to a slight ailement that only gives him trouble now an then.Im glad that he has an owner like you who wants to try to help him and not just ship him off to a sale barn.

Something I'd look for is when you ride him, is he unusually rough?
Not want to canter on his Left lead?
I say left becuase that seemed to be the leg he had the worst problem with in the video.

The fact that he didnt mind the bareback pad,but did get a little stiff, makes me think there is something not lining up right somewhere( his shoulder,whithers,who knows) but if it is nerves or nerve damage even it will not show up on xray ultrasound. and of corse it probly isnt fixable. unless it is just pinched and you can "unpinch it"

Glad to hear his back and hips checked out ok! thats one less piece to the puzzle!


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

OP has this horse done any roping?


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

The last unicorn - I haven't ran a mineral panel, my vet never suggested it. I know he is getting a whole work-up done within the next week (teeth, vax, and overall checkup) I'll see what she thinks when she comes out. I've also thought about that artery. But he'll act like this ^^ before I even make the cinch tight. Sometimes I'll just put it up and he acts odd. I'll again look into seeing if anyone has a bigger or softer girth. 

Jwells84 - I don't mind the questions. So no worries. He was 13-14 when we got him (we are guessing cause we don't really know his age thats another thing my vet will be looking at) and he has almost always had some form of this saddling issue. (It started with bolting until he panicked while in cross ties and flipped over, then when ever he had a bad attack he would fall.) So it could just be a bad experience.

No, he is not unusually rough. He actually moves very very well for a horse his age, has a lot of energy. Never bucks, does rear but that is frustration stimulated and is never random, canters easily on both leads. Feel free to look at my videos on youtube if you want to watch him move. 

YouTube - Horsesdontlie's Channel

Hmm interesting. I will have to have my vet look into it.


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Doe said:


> OP has this horse done any roping?


IDK Much about his past other than the people we got him from were terrified of him. Then she said that the person she got him from just put around on him, tried barrels and used the biggest correction bit possible, then the people before that used him as a galloping trail horse only. That is only within the 4 years before we got him, so he floated around a lot. 

When I got him he was cowy, and had some traits to suggest he may have been used for some roping, but I have no proof. Why do you ask?


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Just a theory but I have nothing to substantiate it as yet. Do you have any decent quality photos? Observation wise is there are changes or unusual lines/patterns running across the scapula or loin area. Also how does his mane sit? Has it ever changed?

Though theres possibly a physical cause I suspect it's mostly psychologically anchored now. I would suspect that the combination of things he has been exposed to and conditioned to have effectively created a cross wiring from a number of things you have said. Possibly exacerbated by a mineral deficiency which could of course help explain why it comes and goes. Like humans with a 'nervous twitch' once learned it is always there, however stress and shortages for example of iron will cause it to reappear. (it wouldn't be iron in the horse, more likely magnesium)

Has he ever done this when he is totally free and you saddle him, so for example not even ground tied?


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Doe said:


> Just a theory but I have nothing to substantiate it as yet. Do you have any decent quality photos? Observation wise is there are changes or unusual lines/patterns running across the scapula or loin area. Also how does his mane sit? Has it ever changed?
> 
> Though theres possibly a physical cause I suspect it's mostly psychologically anchored now. I would suspect that the combination of things he has been exposed to and conditioned to have effectively created a cross wiring from a number of things you have said. Possibly exacerbated by a mineral deficiency which could of course help explain why it comes and goes. Like humans with a 'nervous twitch' once learned it is always there, however stress and shortages for example of iron will cause it to reappear. (it wouldn't be iron in the horse, more likely magnesium)
> 
> Has he ever done this when he is totally free and you saddle him, so for example not even ground tied?


What kind of photos are you looking for? I have tons. =)

I haven't noticed any changes in him over the years. But he has always had this problem as far as I remember. His mane has remained the same. I am not sure what you mean by lines in along his scapula and loin? I mean the only thing that is 'off' about him is he develops his muscles differently in his haunches and he carries his tail slightly to the side, which I thought may have been a back problem but chiro and vets never found any problems to cause it. (The end of Jake's tail looks like it may have been broken once and a vet said he may have developed a habit of carrying it to one side)










Notice that the muscle next to the top of his tail. On the right the muscle is larger and more developed and the one on the left. Then also notice on his left haunch the definition of right above where the leg meets the haunch it is more defined than the right.


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

As for the saddling without being tied. When he had a time period that he had a bad panic every time I saddled him, for about two weeks I brought him into a round pen, take off his halter, would saddle him up in the round pen and leave him until he decided to move on his own, then would round pen him around to get him moving forward. Typically he wouldn't move. I would sit in a chair on the out side of the arena and wait. The first week he would stand still, ears back for about 20-30 minutes. Then eventually he would walk off, typically coming to me on the edge of the round pen. I would then lunge him around to get rid of any balking he had left. That is the main thing that helped, over the next two weeks it disappeared completely. It would come back every now and then but never as bad, and when it got to a bad point I would have one or two sessions completely free and it would disappear faster than without.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

That's my thought. Ignoring the cause for a second as that's somewhat irrelevant. Whatever it is if you imagine that for some reason this horse has become terrified of saddling. It's association is bordering on a phobia. It is mentally anchored to one or a series of very slight triggers which may be indistinguishable to us.

Either way the horse goes into an elevated state, panic. It's natural reaction is to flee. Fine no problem.

Now imagine (and ive seen similar) that same horse cannot flee. It has been hobbled, it has been twitched, it has been cross tied, it has been taught to ground tie so strictly that it IS tied in its brain. Then it cannot flee so it shuts down. In fact in a case like this I would suggest that not allowing the horse to move is the very worst thing you can do. Allowing the horse to move and panic in a controlled environment (so it does hurt itself or you) is the best thing for it. Similar to what you were doing in the round pen. Except don't send the horse. Let it go as it wants, and if possible let it do it with more space than a round pen.

To give you some idea of the power of the mind two examples. Firstly following one of the tsunamis there were dead elephants all tied to wooden posts with ropes they could have broken. The elephants are tied with chains when they are young and taught they cannot break them. So much so that even as a grown elephant in panic they die because their brain does not believe running is possible.
Secondly studies have shown that if you hypnotise someone and tell them you are going to burn their arm with a red hot poker, but then touch them with an ice cube they will blister as if they had burnt. The blister is the bodies reaction to a burn, and the hypnotism has interrupted the usual nerve signals and convinced the subconscious that it has burnt.

So I believe the way forward is to allow the horse to release it's fear. I would take him in a controlled space as mentioned, allow him to find his way, explode if needed, then show him how to calm via your own body language. Ask nothing of him but to calm. No pressure.

In terms of the physical it's definitely worth checking minerals in case that a contributor to when it happens,but it needs to be during a time of episodes. Not literally after he's done it but when he's having a period of doing it.
The reason I asked for photos is because he looked quite short backed in the video but it could be the angle of the camera etc. Is he?


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Hmm its all a lot to think about. Its so hard to relate to Jake because he gives off such odd behavior that I have never seen in other horses that it is hard to describe the vibe. 

All the stuff you described is stuff that I would be able to believe if it was any other horse. Now for ground tying he isn't the best at it, so he isn't afraid to move while being ground tied. I taught him myself, and he is the type that unless I keep an eye on him or stay around him he will wander off. He merely does it because I told him to, not because he doesn't believe he can't move. In which case it depends on his mood whether he stays or not. Now on the other hand he is 100% respectful of the halter and that horse in the 7 years I have owned him has only pulled back once, and I blame stupid elastic bands at the cross ties. Even if crap is hitting the fan he won't pull against the rope. I've had two horse thrashing and pulling back on either side of him and he just stood there. (One horse pulled back spooked the other, we had separated them to hope that Jake would keep them calm...)

What you said is the exact thing I do. I get him moving for the most part. If he's tied I untie him, get out of his way and lunge him around me until he is calm. In the round pen he never actually bolted, just balked until he figured out he could move his legs than would walk around. The longer he holds still the more he shuts down. If I can I avoid any backing up, as that always brings him down , I do and just get him moving forward. 

I don't think he has a short back, though I am still learning about conformation. The camera was set on a chair and had to be tilted up, so I believe its the angle, anyhow here is a full body shot.


----------



## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't have much to add but I must say he sure is cute! I love his markings. I hope you figure it out.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

I could be wrong from just the photos, but it appears that more and more of the signs are there in what I am seeing. I might be totally off the page and just make myself look an idiot, but hey I'll take the risk in case it can help. I just wish I could actually see him, I'm sure I'd know in seconds.

Firstly it could be the light but I think I can see the beginnings of the line in the shoulder I am referring to. I do have a good photo of it on another horse. I will try to find time to upload it this evening for you.

Secondly I'm pretty sure that horse has a rotation of the scapula. Maybe even chipping.

Thirdly if you look at his neck musculature, the differences and relative balance between the rhomboideus, splenius, brachiocephalicus and trapezius muscles which are all nicely visible in that photo.

Also there is the hypertrophy either side of the wither versus the scapula depth and hence pronouncement of the wither compared to how I believe he would have been born.

Finally the propensity to the unilaterally uneven stance that he shows in every photo. Again these maybe just unrepresentative moments in time, but that is what I am seeing in those photos.

What it says to me (and hence the question about roping and/or short backed) is that this horse has been ridden hollow backed with a restricted shoulder for quite some time.

He has not been able to lift his shoulder as shown by the Rhomboideus and will have a tendency therefore to lie/balance/lean to one side.

It is probable at a guess that a saddle (probably a western) has been sitting on or slamming into his scapula (worsened by the pressures of roping) not allowing it to move freely and one escape has been to rotate it.

I would guess he will be very tight around some sections of the scapula and then you can probably get nearly a whole hand in other sections? (which would be dependent on whether the saddle was primarily sitting on or slamming into behind).

This would be very uncomfortable for any horse, but add to it the sudden extreme pain during something like roping and that would easily create such fearful behaviour. It could also easily create nerve damage especially if slamming against the sides of the trapezius either side of the wither.

As I say these are just observations from photos and my gut, so cannot replace someone there with you who really knows their bodywork.

One thing you could do to help confirm these thoughts are;

Take another couple of photos of the scapula closer in from the side, front and angled from the front. Then draw around the outside edge of the scapula with chalk, take a side photo then lift the foot forward as far as it goes and photo again in that position.

Finally try a scapula release. Open your hand, palm flat, fingers outstretched but all together (not open). Now try inserting them behind the scapula. Start at the top of the shoulder, find the groove and run your hand down the front. See how soft or hard it is and what variances there are. You also need to keep the head straight forwards when you do this. Then try again slightly turned into you.

I hope this wall of text helps in some way, you both deserve a break.


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

That last photo is pretty recent, and right now he is recovering from a loss of about 150+ lbs. He had began loosing muscle mass in his back (the sides of the withers most noticeably), neck and haunches. Finally when i was able to get to a different stables and double his food he has been gaining weight back. In those pictures he still needs another 50+lbs. He should have that within about 3-5 weeks. 

As for the squaring up, he has never been taught to. For the longest time he was merely a pasture pony that I rode about once a month. (He was at my fathers and my parents were divorced). So getting him to square up is a bit of a challenge. Whether it is pain of just him, I don't know which on it is, I'm inclined to thinking its the later, because he will do it. Its just hard getting him to understand what I want. 

As for the hollowed out riding, I'm 70% sure that the first time he was taught to move properly under saddle was about 2 years ago. He had no idea how to pick up his back to support the rider, or to collect in anyway. He ran around like a giraffe most of the time. When I decided to try and collect him, I did the fake, just pull their head in crap for about two years before I was taught about the need for him to move under himself and pick up his back and that the head set came more natural because of that, not because it was forced. 

As for the line on his shoulder are you talking about the one halfway down a little to the left? If so that has always been there and it looks like an old injury where possibly the muscle had been cut/damaged and never grew back, leaving an indent. He may have been kicked or something. 










Here is what he look like when we first got him, I'm trying to find a picture of the other side but found this. He is fat in this picture, but he is standing square.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

This confirms my suspicions, the line is there on both sides. No it's not the scar, I see that. Its the line above and to the right of the scar (say 2 o clock).

I have had a theory around that type of indentation for a few years and consulted with many veterinary experts, none of whom can explain it, and yet when you show them photos they have all seen it many times.

I will try to post a photo later so you can see what I am referring to. 

Incidentally I was not expressing concern or insinuation about his weight so please do not think that, it is obvious the efforts and patience you have for him he is very lucky to have found you. I was just trying to explain what I see in his musculature and posture and what you have said confirms it further.

Finally in terms of his posture though that photo may look relatively squarely it is not truly. Medially and laterally he has balance issues. These are as mentioned another sign. Fortunately they are very simple to fix.

I will try to post that photo once I return home. I am as convinced as I can be that shoulder restriction etc has caused this issue which has then become psychological. (with certain anchors to trigger it and maybe neurological or mineral issues to be determined.)


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Below are some photos as promised. On yours I think I see it just below the edge of his mane.

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Oh I see. He does have those lines are both sides. I have grown up with him being like that, and never thought much of it. I have never noticed anything bothering him with his shoulder before.

You say something about simple fixes, just curious as to what you think they are.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Horsesdontlie. I strongly recommend you research Carolyn Resnick's methods. She starts horses completely at liberty. Also google Erin'sCarolynResnick'sNotes. Erin offers a written explanation and will even answer your email. I was dealing with a horse that was continually zoning out and scaring the crap out of himself when he returned to reality. He was often compliant but not trusting. I followed the first few steps, and within about a month he literally had a meltdown. I actually watched all the tension leave his body, kind of an etherial thing. With this method, it's more of a philosophy, the horse is given a say in the matter. In order to spray him (he'd always bolt) I show him the bottle, again at liberty, if he touches it with his nose it's ok to spray him. I start with the lower front leg, ribs then move toward his neck then do his rump. If he doesn't touch the bottle I walk away and leave him. I may try again in oh, 20 seconds and usually it's a go. I do this with everything now. He is now a very different horse. It was his idea to drop his head if I need to halter him.


----------



## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

Doe, I'm trying to follow you in what you're saying. How can you tell he is not truly balanced?The line you are referring to looks to me like a muscle line. Really not doubting you that he may have a shoulder problem, from watching the video he seemed tight in the shoulders,like he couldn't move them quite right,but i'm not understanding what the line has to do with it. Do you mind exaggerating?


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

jwells84 said:


> Doe, I'm trying to follow you in what you're saying. How can you tell he is not truly balanced?The line you are referring to looks to me like a muscle line. Really not doubting you that he may have a shoulder problem, from watching the video he seemed tight in the shoulders,like he couldn't move them quite right,but i'm not understanding what the line has to do with it. Do you mind exaggerating?


Hi Jwells

How can I tell he is not truly balanced. Well it's like a jigsaw it's all things together forming a bigger picture. The photo first told me everything I needed to know. Then I watched the video and had it confirmed along with the answers to the questions I posed. When I work with horses I always ask for a photo first. I can often get a cleaner notion from a photo than the moving horse. That then allows me to narrow it down and pinpoint more accurately when I see the horse moving.

So for example with this horse and his balance. Well you need to understand the relationship between the muscles that I talked of. Then look at how he holds himself. The angle of his feet, even his ears and his mane (in relation to the muscles)

Then imagine a line longitudinally through the horse. (ie as is you were putting a horse on a skewer through the length of the horse). Then a line frommmm sky to floor. Where they coincide is his centre of gravity at Rest. As you can see his centre of gravity is forwards as is common, but also it's way off to one side. (I wont say which side in case people want to see for themselves first, then I'll post later.) 

Now imagine where those two lines cross again, and this time take another axis out of the sides (ie laterally). That will be what I call the 'lever point' and becomes very useful when working with them to know where that is.

In terms of the shoulder, yes he appears stiff for a number of reasons. One I suspect is foot related. But ultimately he has learned to rotate the scapula to avoid the pain, or simply because he had no other choice. Over time the musculature actually remodels around that motion. The line that you see on the horses shoulder is another indicator of that.

Hope this helps.


----------



## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

yes that helps. Thank you very much! Do you think he could properly balance or is his conformation or even age going to allow him to properly balance?


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

jwells84 said:


> yes that helps. Thank you very much! Do you think he could properly balance or is his conformation or even age going to allow him to properly balance?


There is no reason why his balance cannot be improved immeasurably, along with his symmetry and function.

My only concern in this case is ensuring there is no ongoing pain first. There is a strong possibility here of navicular or even arthritis as well as nerve or fascia damage.

If pain can be removed then it's a case of teaching the horse that there are alternatives to the motion he has locked into. That just takes time and patience.


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

This horse seems to do the same thing


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

I've just been reading what Doe has been saying to Jwells84. So, I'm still here. lol.

Jake does have his balance issues, and his differences with his left and right sides. Which are constantly being worked on. With his age I wouldn't be surprised if he has the beginnings of arthritis. As time goes on, he gets longer and slower warm ups. As for other pain, it is possible but my vet has shown no concern, only advising me that he may need the longer warm-ups.

Doe, out of curiosity what side do you see the most stiffness and unbalance on? Jake is toed out on his left front, which may cause a difference in how he moves and muscle structure. It has very very slightly progressed as he has aged. I leave it shod true to how he is. 

Also what exercises do you propose to build on his balance and symmetry? 

Natasha - It looks similar, but the owners of that horse said the horse did that consistently, whether saddled or not. While Jake only does it after being cinched up. They could be related incidents though.


----------



## chadrodeo05 (Jul 11, 2011)

saddled up my new hose sat. and she started to go down,never seen that b4 but i think daughter tighten up girth 2 tight, we lossened it and she was fine


----------



## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

chadrodeo05 said:


> saddled up my new hose sat. and she started to go down,never seen that b4 but i think daughter tighten up girth 2 tight, we lossened it and she was fine


I have seen a few horses that will go down if they are saddled too tightly quickly. My friend has a mare that does that if you just snag her with it. But none of the horse I have seen, have the lack of balance and the panic that my boy seems to have when he has an attack. 

Also seen a few babies do it with their first few times they get saddled. They all seem to grow out of it though.


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Horsesdontlie said:


> I've just been reading what Doe has been saying to Jwells84. So, I'm still here. lol.
> 
> Jake does have his balance issues, and his differences with his left and right sides. Which are constantly being worked on. With his age I wouldn't be surprised if he has the beginnings of arthritis. As time goes on, he gets longer and slower warm ups. As for other pain, it is possible but my vet has shown no concern, only advising me that he may need the longer warm-ups.
> 
> ...


It's a bit like the chicken and the egg, which came first when neither exists without the other. His toeing out makes perfect sense and will be largely the result of his problems rather than the cause of them. 

95% of lameness is related to the foot, but in turn the foot is a reflection of the body. Hence why one must trim to the internal hoof capsule balance and not to an external angle or picture.

His leverage line is very unusual and interesting. I must find a way to draw it. However it is thrown off to the left but actually naturally falls to his right, and the reason it is thrown is because it actually directs upwards not downwards. This cause a kind of twisting.

So stiffness - this translates to his left side along the ribcage, we here he will seem to flex more easily but in actual fact is usually more bent that way and so as a bend it's actually bending less which confuses people. It will also show a vertical stiffness in his right hind which translates to a difficulty in transitions, especially to canter. I would expect him to fall out on his left shoulder (right turns) and fall in on his right (left turns). I would also suspect he has been susceptible to undiagnosed stomach ulcers and may still have a propensity. (hence also colic in rich grass situations for example)

In terms of exercises, there are many. I am trying to pull some resources together at the moment as it would take pages of typing and needs illustration. However I would highly recommend Peggy Cummings for Jake if you fancy buying a book. That's the basic type of work he needs.

I am so happy he has an understanding owner. Incidentally shoeing to how he is I would agree with as per above. Trying to change it with shoeing would just add additional stresses.


----------



## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

What is a leverage line? His topline?


----------



## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

There is the 'leverage point' as I call it. Think of it as the pivot point of the Centre of Gravity (C of G). Then there is the 'leverage line' which is the directional influence through the leverage point. This line moves as the horse moves or changes what he is doing, but it always runs through the leverage point. It simply changes it's direction. The leverage point can and will also move, but again the leverage point will always run through it.

I am mostly interested in seeing the leverage point on a horse when it is stationary at first. That tells me what controls the horse. It is just a starting point, like my summary above, it has many factors to consider that will lead me by elimination and trial to the true issues. However the problem is always connected to the leverage point.

As a demonstration I usually mark the point on a horse with chalk and ask people to test it for themselves. It will be a point of both weakness and strength depending on which angle it is approached from. When people press from one side they will feel resistance and solidity, the other side and the horse will almost fall over with a slight touch.

Its simply the affect of the horses natural posture, balance and musculature all combined, and is no different than understanding the biomechanical implications of say Aiki Jujitsu.

However seeing any horses point of balance and how movement affects it helps one to understand the many challenges a horse may face in doing things we seem to think are very simple, and not confuse physical weaknesses or underdevelopment with disobedience as is the common assumption.

Not sure if any of that helps.


----------



## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

Ok thanks I think I understand. I dug out my notes from some classes i took,and added a few things,the ones I had show how the center of Gravity changes and how that effect the horse,so I think I'm understanding, it has been along time since I dug out my class notes.lol, apparently i need to review them more often!


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I have not read the responses so far, but a former horse of mine went down when saddled, she had a back issue.


----------



## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

I haven't read all of the posts so if what I'm saying is a repeat then sorry 

Have you checked his girth line for tense muscles? He might need a good massage on both sides all the way up his girth line and under his belly. You can tell if he is tense through there by running your fingers down his girth line from the top to bottom putting a little pressure. If his muscles twitch and jerk around then he needs a massage to loosen up his muscles.

Also, you want to start with the girth really loose. Basically just tight enough that when you walk your saddle won't slip off. Then walk the horse forward (not back or turning), let him loosen up then tighten the saddle a little more. Repeat that process until your saddle is as tight as you need it. Then walk him around again before stretching his legs.

I have found with a number of horses that if they are sore in the girth line at all and you tighten the saddle to much it can drop them to their knees very quickly. A horse that is considered "Girthy" generally just has tense muscles and is sore throughout that whole area.

Hope that helps.


----------

