# Video of my accident back in June



## Liligirl

From my completely not an expert in anyway it looks like he is unhappy at not getting any release. He is tense and trying to ask you off his mouth before the canter. When he goes into the canter the rein is shortned even more. The first little hope jump and a buck looked to be saying let go of my mouth. Then he really panics when someone yells suddenly.


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## greentree

I think you did nothing wrong. There is a spot right after F where his head comes up , then he kicks to the outside, as if stung. I do not have enough bandwidth right now to watch it over immediately, it is stop and go as it is....but he never looks like he is questioning what you are asking him.


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## jaydee

Its way too easy to be an armchair critic and really someone has to be in the situation and know the horse to give the right answer
I have seen a couple of horses we've had react in much the same way when DH has ridden in a similar sort of way - sometimes its ended well and the horse has felt 'bullied' out of the temper tantrum but mostly the horse just gets more reactive and it ends badly. He's a pretty tough rider and sticks like glue but I've seen him and the horse end up on the ground a few times so not something I recommend
When I feel an explosion coming on like that I usually find that releasing pressure on the head and removing all 'forward' cues diffuses the situation a lot better than trying to fight through it. Once the horse has calmed down you can go start over but aim at getting to where you want to be more slowly


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## enh817

I tend to agree with Liligirl, the only thing I can see that could have set him off, was feeling trapped. Asking a horse to go around 'bridled up' before they're ready and not giving enough release, can make a horse explode. Horses are naturally claustrophobic creatures and don't deal well with being trapped (which is how they feel when a lot of pressure is applied and they don't know how to respond to get away from it).
You almost got him stopped at first, but you kinda gave up. Also, if you're trying to get a horse's face, in a situation like that, you need to pull their head around with a wide hand. You were pulling straight back, most of the time with both hands, which just gave him no where to go, but up, and allowed him to brace against you and buck harder. I know you said you didn't want critique, but this might help you in the future if one gets to jumping around with you again. 

Don't feel bad. I've struggled with this sort of thing plenty before, wanting my horses to go around 'pretty and bridled up' but asking for too much and not giving enough release. Some horses can take being trapped better than others. I'm sorry it resulted in a bad fall :\

I really want to commend you for being open and honest with the trainer. All the time we get people sending us horses with majorly dangerous issues, saying 'oh, i just want him to have a tune up" or "I just want him in the bridle better". Come to find out, the horse has habitually been bucking people off, or rearing and flopping over. I guess people think that since we're horse trainers, we signed up for that stuff. I suppose they don't realize that this is how I put food on the table. If I get hurt, and am unable to work for a period of time (or eternally), how am I supposed to feed myself. 
I'll never understand why so many owners can't be honest. Maybe it's a matter of pride and they don't want to admit that they might have had a hand in the horse's dangerous behavior.

edited to add; that all I've said is just a guess. It's hard to tell what really happened without being there. And it's very possible that the horse just lost his mind for a moment, that does happen. I'm only trying to offer a possible answer, as that is what you asked for


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## tinyliny

gosh the only thing that might have helped is between the first set of bucking and the second, I might have pulled his head around and disengaged him. you might have had a chance at about the 11 or 12 second mark.
your fall looked purely awful.


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## tinyliny

I did not see the horse on an overly tight rein. he just reacted suddenly, like being stung. OR, he has learned this behavior.


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## enh817

I agree that the first jump looks like something spooked him, though I have a hard time seeing the reins against the dark color of the horse, or anything else that you may have been doing at that point in time. I do think though, once he started jumping around, you trapped his face, giving him no where to go but continuing to go up. It's a perfectly understandable reaction. We've all been there 
I also agree that he looks pretty confident making those moves, like it wasn't the first time he has evaded pressure by bucking. 
The information you gave about how your trainer had you riding with so much pressure in your hands is what led me to my guess in my previous post. But, like has been mentioned, it's almost impossible for any of us to say with certainty what went wrong without having been there or knowing the horse's history. 

Please don't over analyze and stress yourself about this situation. We all have wrecks. It's part of riding horses. You're being proactive by sending him to a trainer and I have confidence that you and your horse will be just fine together, moving forward.


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## Tihannah

You're such a tiny thing! Glad to hear that you're okay. I know it can be hard to think clearly and quickly when something like that happens and glad to hear that he is being sent off to work with more.


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## ShirtHotTeez

My impression is that he was stung, and still reacting to it when you came off.


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## Klassic Superstar

For those wondering I did try very hard to pull his head around with a wide hand. 

We'll see where all this goes

As for know I have had 105 days out of saddle with another 90 to go after the 7th of September so a little less then 90 I guess. 


I have permanent nerve damage and permanent neck damage due to this accident. 

The poor guy is just sitting wanting to be worked so badly


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## BlueSpark

This is all guess work from a short clip and it's so easy to mis judge with minimal info.

When he first tensed he should have had his head pulled around (one rein only, all pressure off the other)and his hip disengaged. For this to succeed he would have to have trained thoroughly to do this from the beginning.

I feel like he wasn't reaching for the bit at all, more like he was uncomfortable and resisting. I don't know any reason why a horse should have 10# on it's mouth all the time.

I have experience with a horse just like this. From the first ride he was sensitive but willing and soft. I loved riding him. He exploded on a rider that tended to be nervous and hard handed. When he tensed the rider gripped with the reins and off they came. No attempt at a 1 rein stop until too late. Still no problem with anyone else. He went off to a "trainer". Within the first two weeks he had an exploding bucking fit where he threw a rider badly(who should not have been on him, but that's another story), then at the end he exploded again throwing the trainer. Throughout this process I didn't know he'd done anything, so I was riding him at the trainers and he was great for me(even the day after they were bucked off, no one had warned me so I went ahead and had a lovely ride). After he came back I trail rode him and started jumping (I was learning to jump) and he was hard working and honest. The odd time I would feel him tense, so I would one rein stop and continue on. After the first couple minutes of the first few rides it went away. He went on to be a Rockstar eventer for a soft handed young girl.

Turns out the trainer was hard handed, and both other riders were nervous and gripped with the reins. He would take it as long as he could and then get so annoyed and frustrated he just blew. If you had considerate soft hands (think 1lb pressure, not 10) you had the best horse you can ask for.

If you were closer I would take him for you in a heartbeat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreySorrel

From what I could see, and again, this is my humble opinion, you were being heavy handed with him, your hands weren't down and soft on your reins and his mouth. When he started to freak out it looked to me like you were jerking on his mouth to turn him, causing him to try to evade the pain/pressure your exerting.


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## jaydee

I disagree that the horse was ridden into the situation he started out in a reasonable outline and as far as I know has had enough previous schooling to work like that
He had a little objection, raised his head and hollowed his back but then dropped down again and went into canter reasonably well
For some reason he suddenly freaked out and lost it - maybe he was feeling too full of himself and used a ghost to spook at as an excuse to explode or maybe he was stung or something (tack related) pinched him 
At the point his head went up so high he nearly hit his rider in the face was when the tension on the reins needed to be dropped and not increased to prevent him leaping through the air, but even then he would likely have carried on bucking.
I saw no point from the time he shot off when a 1 rein stop could have been used without risking him ending up losing balance and going over sideways because his legs were flying in all directions - it also won't stop a horse that's intent on fighting you from running backwards and flipping over on top of you


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## Klassic Superstar

Thank you Jaydee, after watching the video again and agian and again I feel like I really doing a MUCH better job at fallowing with my arms and being soft. I think I just needed to post this to see what you guys thought.

Im working on putting him in training in late November or December and going from there where he will be in full training 5 days a week with all day turnout 
still. 

Thank you Everyone for your thoughts and ideas.


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## jaydee

I think if you watch the video yourself you'll see where you did right and where you went wrong though I'm not sure that at the point you did yell at him and pull back (not a good idea!!) the outcome wouldn't have been any different
I've looked at it a couple more times and it does seem as if something rattled his cage and he totally lost all his self control.


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## Foxhunter

As said, it is hard to really see. 

Whatever it was that was a hard fall and he intended you to come off.

What it looks like to me is that he is being ridden front to back, it looks like he is tense. 

Right at th start as you come into the corner your hands are moving quite a bit. Not sure what you were doing with them. 

You lost it as he came over the centre line. Don't put your hand out to do a one rein stop but haul that hand hard back towards you. 
It is instinctive to use the inside hand but in this case it would have been better to use your right hand. 

All easier said than done! 

Try finding a chiropractor who diagnoses with Kinnesiology, they might be able to free up the trapped nerves.


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## Acadianartist

So sorry about your fall and injuries. To my ignorant eye, you look like a very competent rider. I am looking at this differently than most - I am a mom who has a young daughter (10) who has recently gotten into jumping. 

I am just trying to understand how these types of falls and resulting injuries might be avoided (again, as a mom). I suppose if you had relaxed the reins, it might have stopped everything, but that's not the reaction most of us would have. Any other tips on avoiding serious injuries in a situation like this?


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## enh817

Acadianartist said:


> So sorry about your fall and injuries. To my ignorant eye, you look like a very competent rider. I am looking at this differently than most - I am a mom who has a young daughter (10) who has recently gotten into jumping.
> 
> I am just trying to understand how these types of falls and resulting injuries might be avoided (again, as a mom). I suppose if you had relaxed the reins, it might have stopped everything, but that's not the reaction most of us would have. Any other tips on avoiding serious injuries in a situation like this?



This might sound weird, but a person can practice falling, and teach them self the muscle memory to fall in as safe a way as possible. We used to practice emergency dismounts in my beginner riding lessons, when I was a little kid. The instructor would yell "pony on fire!!!" at random times and we had to emergency dismount (kick your feet out of the stirrups and swing off) at whatever speed we were going. I was taught to 'fall' (emergency dismount) to the inside, away from the fence, and to land on hands and knees, facing away from the horse and crawl as quickly as possible away from them. I truly believe that all the time spent practicing that is the reason I've never come off into a fence and have mostly avoided injury, despite having hit the ground at least 75 times in my riding career. Recently I've developed a bad habit of trying to land on my feet... broke and dislocated my ankle bad last summer, doing that on hard ground. The only time I've ever really been hurt around horses. (KNOCK ON WOOD!!) I probably need to practice some emergency dismounts again and get myself back to landing on hands and knees. I've just been trying my darnedest to keep my butt in the saddle, so I don't have to worry about landing. But, sometimes you try your hardest and still come off, so it's good to be prepared. Make sure first that the horse won't be spooked by this, or use a horse that is more gentle to practice on 

Often times in a situation where a horse gets to jumping around, bucking, rearing, anything, your best bet is to drive them forward as hard as you can and make them go somewhere. Yes, if you can get their head, they can't buck as hard, but it's a very specific move you must make to keep from pulling them off balance and over, or just giving them something to brace against and buck harder. Most people want to pull straight back and most will do it with both hands. That will only make the problem worse. I've had the best luck using a wide, opening rein to pull the horses head to one side while doing whatever it takes to send the horse forward, as quickly as possible, around in a smallish circle. You don't want to get the horses feet locked down... you're safest when you're making the horse's feet go somewhere. If I'm starting a colt that I'm pretty sure is going to want to hump around with me when I get on, I'll climb on it while it's moving around me in a small circle, instead of when its feet are stopped. It's much safer. 
This is something your daughter can practice too. The more she can do these things in a safe setting, the better prepared she'll be if trouble arises and will hopefully be able to handle the situation without panicking.


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## Foxhunter

I agree about learning to fall. 

We had plenty of practise jumping on and off at various speeds. Ponies were never on fire it was off your horse and into the one in front! 

Also playing gymkhana games taught ups to dismount at speed and land running. 
That was the advantage of riding ponies. Easy to get on and off. 

Going out the side door is easier and safer then out the front. Learning to roll into a ball if you rode with many others like in racing or Foxhunting. Less likely to be trodden on and if knocked you roll (you hope!)


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## jaydee

I'm sure something external triggered this horse into a full blown meltdown, everything happened too fast to really do much about it, even if she'd relaxed the reins which would have stopped the leaping the horse would still have carried on bucking
Yes you can learn to fall but I've had some pretty bad falls and walked away perfectly fine and then had some that looked mild in comparison and not been so lucky


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## DanteDressageNerd

I completely agree with Jaydee on this one. This is not your fault as a rider at all. You're not putting that much pressure on his mouth or him to begin with, what you're asking isn't hard work and even if it were a reaction like that is not acceptable or reasonable at all. There are things I've seen horses do that were reasonable over reactions because a rider was being very mean but you were not. My guess would be something was hurting him or he was just very aggressively saying I refuse then that goes back to training and re-training his habits and reactions. I'd go back to saddle fit, have a chiropractic adjustment, maybe have the vet look at him. He might have ulcers or something really bothering him.

I'd have to be in the situation to know exactly what I would do differently because when it comes to this stuff you can't really coach someone through it. You just have to develop your ability to ride through.


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## Foxhunter

It was a nasty fall, difficult to say what was the cause.

What I will say is whether it was pain - doubtful as something hurting would make it more painful to buck, something biting him, or whatever, there is a big hole in his training to have such a violent reaction.


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## jaydee

Either a big hole or something that's being missed as was the case with a horse we once had that was similar to this on a regular basis


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## DanteDressageNerd

I was just going to add in my experience a lot of major behavioral problems are caused because a horse is in pain somewhere or they're used to something causing them pain.

For example a horse unwilling to work over their back despite being ridden properly. A horse suddenly acting out in a way that is unusual to that horse or a horse that is excessively and unreasonably sensitive may have stomach ulcers because that is usually what I've seen from ulcery horses. I've seen horses who had issues in their neck joints go from normal to can't bend and spooking at every corner and after a neck injection are fine. I've seen horses who had bad ulcers act out in very similar ways to this horse here. Severe over reactions, rearing, taking off, losing their cool, difficult to keep in rhythm or focused.

Horses do not have a voice to tell you they hurt, so a lot of the times they act out trying to get out of doing something that makes them uncomfortable or hurts to do what we want them to. And it doesn't matter how old a horse is, even 3yr olds can have joint or back or stifle issues we can't necessarily see but they feel. This doesn't mean EVERY behavioral issue is due to pain, I've re trained horses who just came from terrible training programs. I knew a mare who had huge rock like callouses over where the riders spurs would touch on a horse. That mare was super sweet. Or horses who were not naughty in any way shape or form, like kids could ride them that came to us bucking or taking off because a rider bullied and beat on them to make up for their lack of skill. Like 3rd-4th level horses who had NO concept of self carriage, balance, or a consistent rhythm. Or green horses brought on by riders that were too green (but thought they were experienced) to ride them and it took some time to fix those problems. Behavioral problems due to training happen or a horse is just quirky and has special needs but I always like to check first that they don't have kissing spine somewhere or stomach ulcers or an improperly fitted saddle pinching them or something causing them pain before I push a horse through it and potentially make the problem worse.


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## Klassic Superstar

Thanks guys. He was actually really rtying hard and being good. Yes in the trot he was more tense then we would have liked and Ithink that was somthing to do with it but he tried to do the right thing by going into the canter and then Bam....

Lesson learned? maybe...
I have started putting him back on the lunge line this week. Simply just encouraging him to relax, have a good forward rhythm and not go behind the vertical so really pushing his hind end up and getting him to release his back and stretch his nose out, not down and fall on the forehand but just OPEN up his stride and body. SO far so good, only three sessions in. Just starting with 20 minutes each time until we are a bit stronger. He is so happy!


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## waresbear

Almost looks like a bee or wasp stung him.


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## Klassic Superstar

Thats what I was thinking as well, but I think it was that and possibly something else


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## enh817

OP, please don't keep stressing about what happened  I've hit the ground, plenty of times, from much less. 
I'm impressed that you rode as many licks as you did! I'm always so grateful for my saddle horn when one starts jumping around, I have mad respect for anyone that can stay on in an English saddle. It seems pretty clear that your horse had no intentions of quitting before you came off. 
I don't think it's your fault that your horse lost it. Horses will be horses and lose their mind from time to time, it's what they do best!! 
I think at this point, the best thing you can do going forward (once you heal), is to practice 'pulling the e-brake' and falling safely (maybe on another more gentle horse?), so that perhaps you'll be more prepared next time things go haywire (as there will always be a next time). It's such a scary way that you landed, it's lucky that you weren't hurt worse. 

How much more healing time do you have left until you can get back in the saddle?


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## waresbear

OP, just so you know, around here, we call it "unhorsed". Sounds rather noble, doesn't it?


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## jaydee

Badly executed flying dismount!!!


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## churumbeque

Liligirl said:


> From my completely not an expert in anyway it looks like he is unhappy at not getting any release. He is tense and trying to ask you off his mouth before the canter. When he goes into the canter the rein is shortned even more. The first little hope jump and a buck looked to be saying let go of my mouth. Then he really panics when someone yells suddenly.


I agree, Your hands were unusually busy and harsh. That said that is no reason to buck like that. He was under control until someone yelled. What was the yelling all about?


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## tinyliny

she was yelling at him for his bad behavior. it's pretty much instinctual to do that.

I did not see harsh hands at all, until he started to buck, and you'd better believe my hands would have been as harsh or harsher to get his head around if I had the chance.

that horse did not buck due to the hands. it was either an outside stiumuls, or a learned reaction. this is not the first time he has bucked explosivley and without apparent cause.


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## churumbeque

tinyliny said:


> she was yelling at him for his bad behavior. it's pretty much instinctual to do that.
> 
> I did not see harsh hands at all, until he started to buck, and you'd better believe my hands would have been as harsh or harsher to get his head around if I had the chance.
> 
> that horse did not buck due to the hands. it was either an outside stiumuls, or a learned reaction. this is not the first time he has bucked explosivley and without apparent cause.


 I don't think it was the rider yelling. It was someone else after the horse stopped acting up and then it started again like it got scared and then it really went bad. At a trot the horses head is steady but the hands were moving so much that they didn't match the horses gait and it looked very irritating to the horse. Also when something like that happens I take my leg off the horse so as not to encourage it to go faster but her legs clamped on which would encourage impulsion and forward energy along with pulling back at the same time looks to be a factor.


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## jaydee

I mostly find that when a horse is wanting to leap/rear or buck its better to keep your leg on it and push it forwards than it is to sit and do nothing. The secret to success is to only use enough leg to have it moving and get its head where you want it
I really didn't see any point in that incident where the horse actually stopped acting up
I had one horse that used to have explosive temper tantrums when she didn't want to do something and shouting at her used to work really well as it seemed to get her mind back with me on planet earth
Doesn't work for every horse in every situation though


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## tinyliny

are you kidding me? when a horse starts that kind of leaping, it's pretty darn hard to NOT put your leg on tighter. you are in survival mode. other than a milisecond when she might have been able to disengage him, I could not see much that any rider short of an expert could do much better. almost any average rider would grip, and would quite possibly yell.


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## churumbeque

jaydee said:


> I mostly find that when a horse is wanting to leap/rear or buck its better to keep your leg on it and push it forwards than it is to sit and do nothing. The secret to success is to only use enough leg to have it moving and get its head where you want it
> I really didn't see any point in that incident where the horse actually stopped acting up
> I had one horse that used to have explosive temper tantrums when she didn't want to do something and shouting at her used to work really well as it seemed to get her mind back with me on planet earth
> Doesn't work for every horse in every situation though


 To me it looked under control at about 9 seconds until someone yelled and then it reacted far worse. It is one thing to use your leg to push forward it is another to clamp on to hang on.


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## churumbeque

tinyliny said:


> are you kidding me? when a horse starts that kind of leaping, it's pretty darn hard to NOT put your leg on tighter. you are in survival mode. other than a milisecond when she might have been able to disengage him, I could not see much that any rider short of an expert could do much better. almost any average rider would grip, and would quite possibly yell.


No I'm not kidding you. It was not the rider that yelled either.


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## Horsef

Just today I saw at least 3 horses being ridden with MUCH stronger hands and they didn't have a meltdown so my vote goes to the horse being stung or startled. Well done for staying on for so long.

I once got bucked off after two bucks while being lunged - I didn't even have the reins. No pressure from anyone, just a leisurely trot. No tension in him or me at all, no ear pinning, nothing. The horse just wanted me off for whatever reason. He never bucked with me or anyone else since. Just one of those things.


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## jaydee

I honestly cannot see how anyone can tell how hard a rider is gripping or not gripping by what you can see on a video especially when you're just looking at something that happened so fast as that did

I used to ride show ponies in the UK and most of them were more TB and arab than pony, stabled a lot of the time and fed a lot of oats and barley in those days to get a big topline. The little divils would be trying to run off with you as best they could but you just had to hang on to their heads with a vice like grip and smile so the judge thought you were having a wonderful time - it fooled experienced judges - its very hard to know how strongly someone is riding just by watching them


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## churumbeque

churumbeque said:


> I agree, Your hands were unusually busy and harsh. That said that is no reason to buck like that. He was under control until someone yelled. What was the yelling all about?


 when I say harsh they were overly active. I have watched a few of this riders videos and when she is posting and rising her hands should come down so she doesn't jerk the horse, when she sits then the elbows should allow the hands to rise to keep consistent contact. they seem to be working against the horse. 
I agree that shouldn't cause this reaction but some horses are more sensitive than others and it may have reached its point of frustration. 
I don't think it would have ended badly if the person hadn't yelled startling the horse as rider was regaining composure and control. 
Scary Yell and squeeze= reactive scared horse


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## Skyseternalangel

Having had my horse try and rear/crowhop with me later on the subject of contact, I will absolutely say better to keep your leg on and RIDE THAT HORSE FORWARD.

The OP is in a completely different circumstance. I think he had already made up his mind what he was going to do, and there was no changing it.

She did what she could, with what she had. Now lay off of her.


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## Liligirl

I actually think people have been very nice in this post. Normally people are overly critical, blunt and can be mean.

Everyone has taken other people's opinions into account and discussed it rationally.


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## Yogiwick

The OP is clearly a very good rider, while I don't love the way she was riding at the beginning of the video or the way the horse was responding I definitely don't see anything that would set the horse off like that. I don't think he looked like he spooked or anything either. Very strange and sudden response. We can guess all we want but it is still just guessing. I don't think the OP should feel it's her fault AT ALL.

I am very impressed with how well you rode that!!

I do think there was a split second in between reactions it looked like you just tried to ride him forward through it which personally I think was the wrong response. I don't think dangerous behavior on the ground should be ignored so why in the saddle? I think at that "break" you should of pulled him around and regained complete control instead of trying to ride forward through it as that just allowed him to really explode, but hindsight is 20 20 and sometimes easier said than done!

I think a lot of these guesses are good but I don't think it was the riding, though the horse didn't look happy with that and your hands were very busy I wouldn't expect a response like that! I would take this horse back to basics. Agree that certain horses just need certain riders/styles. Working with my own right now 

Kudos again for doing as well as you did, I wouldn't of stuck on like that! Whatever happened, don't blame yourself.


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## tinyliny

it's very easy to critisize after the fact, whether we do it to others or to ourselves. as long as something is to be gained, it might be beneficial. but, there'll be a whole lot of speculation that is just that, speculation. that entire event, from things going all rosey like to her going butt over teakettle was under 17 seconds. not much time.


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## boots

That leap and ducking out maneuver is a tough one to stick. The manner in which you hit the ground was unfortunate.


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## amberly

You should give him release of his head once you are in the lope, and then after a few strides pick the weight up again.
Our reining horses sometimes do this if we don't give them even the slightest release as soon as we go into the lope. Even just barely lowering your hands to his neck gives him a small release, and then you can pick up again.


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## Cherie

I see a reactive kind of horse -- not one in pain or stung or ?????. All of these can be reasons but none are good excuses -- but I do not see them as the cause of this 'come-apart'. 

I see a horse that is poorly trained that has probably thrown fits in the past to get his way -- in this case -- more rein and less contact. He has not been trained enough to accept and RESPOND CORRECTLY to this much contact at this point in time or at this point in the ride. I see a rider that needs to be better able to 'read' a horse and know when to put more pressure on it and when to just put some miles on it looking for a better, more receptive attitude.

At this time, if I wanted to go on with him, I would find an endurance rider or a cowboy checking cattle and fences to take this horse on some 20 mile rides. He was way too fresh and way to resistant to ask him to accept that much contact. I am usually not a proponent of a lot of 'wets saddle blankets' but this horse needs a few of them with meaningful 'training rides' following them. This is when trainers use 'lopers' to get a horse into a receptive mode so they can actually learn instead of just bracing and showing more resistance. When a horse wants to get a hump in its back or brace, this is when lopers just trot a few more miles. Again, this requires more ability to 'read' a horse.

And yes! It would help a LOT to teach this horse a very good 'one rein stop' at all gaits. It is completely useless to try to pull a horse this strong and reactive around if he he has not been taught how to stop and instantly give a rider his head at all tree gaits IN ADVANCE of needing to use it. 

If I had found myself in your position after the first bit at the trot, I would have kept him in a trot and gradually asked for more responsiveness. I would have stuck to leg yielding exercises and things like counter-bending at the trot with minimal contact. When he fought the bit or acted this resistant, I would have pulled his head around until he stopped completely still and relaxed. I would just make him stand there with his head at my knee until he relaxed and got 'off the muscle'. Again -- this needs to be taught in advance when the horse is not reactive and upset.


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## jaydee

If this is the same horse that the OP has in video's from 2013 then he knows perfectly well how to canter in a collected frame on a short rein without having a tantrum
Poor training isn't always the cause of these sort of explosions, some horses just lack self control in some situations no matter how well schooled they are, especially 'high energy and high strung horses - Carl Hester's latest dressage horse Nip Tuck is a perfect example of it, he lives out 24/7 and is worked hard but can still 'lose it'.


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## Cherie

The horse is question was NOT ready to canter in frame at that time on that day. I think he gave ample warning that he was not ready to take any pressure from his rider. That goes back to 'reading' a horse well.

Now, if it is lack of solid training or just a horse that lacks being honest and willing part of the time is a question only the owner can answer. To me, he is definitely not solid and shows to be a horse that lacks being honest. Desirable horses are the same every day that you get them out of a stall or the pasture.

Is it his inborn disposition? Many Impressive bred horses are just like this (as are many others). They have the ability and can have years of training and can do something very well when they feel like it. But, they wake up in a new world every day and you have no idea if they are going to be an angel or a devil that day. It is why I won't own one or never wanted to train any after I saw what many were like. It is also why we only train prospects we raise. All prospects are not created equal.

If this was during a lesson, I think the rider was under too much pressure to do what the instructor asked instead of what the horse was ready for ON THAT DAY. On that day, he certainly was not ready for the pressure that was put on him. Again, that goes back to learning to read the horse you are on. They just do not go from relaxed and compliant to having a come-apart like this one did. If a rider cannot read and react to what a horse is dishing out, then they are not ready for a prospect like this but need an honest trained horses. Honesty and willingness are SOOOO much more important than ability, especially to a rider that is not in the 'expert' category.


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## churumbeque

Skyseternalangel said:


> Having had my horse try and rear/crowhop with me later on the subject of contact, I will absolutely say better to keep your leg on and RIDE THAT HORSE FORWARD.
> 
> The OP is in a completely different circumstance. I think he had already made up his mind what he was going to do, and there was no changing it.
> 
> She did what she could, with what she had. Now lay off of her.


You must be reading a different post as no one is picking on her. Not your job to moderate.


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## churumbeque

Cherie said:


> The horse is question was NOT ready to canter in frame at that time on that day. I think he gave ample warning that he was not ready to take any pressure from his rider. That goes back to 'reading' a horse well.
> 
> Now, if it is lack of solid training or just a horse that lacks being honest and willing part of the time is a question only the owner can answer. To me, he is definitely not solid and shows to be a horse that lacks being honest. Desirable horses are the same every day that you get them out of a stall or the pasture.
> 
> Is it his inborn disposition? Many Impressive bred horses are just like this (as are many others). They have the ability and can have years of training and can do something very well when they feel like it. But, they wake up in a new world every day and you have no idea if they are going to be an angel or a devil that day. It is why I won't own one or never wanted to train any after I saw what many were like. It is also why we only train prospects we raise. All prospects are not created equal.
> 
> If this was during a lesson, I think the rider was under too much pressure to do what the instructor asked instead of what the horse was ready for ON THAT DAY. On that day, he certainly was not ready for the pressure that was put on him. Again, that goes back to learning to read the horse you are on. They just do not go from relaxed and compliant to having a come-apart like this one did. If a rider cannot read and react to what a horse is dishing out, then they are not ready for a prospect like this but need an honest trained horses. Honesty and willingness are SOOOO much more important than ability, especially to a rider that is not in the 'expert' category.


Cherie, you are so thorough in your explanations and spot on and they always come off to the point and polite.


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## jaydee

I don't know what the OP had been doing in terms of work with the horse prior to what happened this day so can't pass comment on whether or not he was physically prepared to work in a collected frame or not
What he did wasn't that different to the what David Marcus' horse Capital did in the 2012 Olympics and that horse was certainly sufficiently trained to be competing at that level and was used to the atmosphere of big shows and travelling but he still 'blew up' and lost self control when he got too tense. He rides well through the sudden rainstorm but it was enough to start his focus levels to drop and then all it took was little thing to make him spook to trigger a meltdown at around 3:46




 
Same horse in 2014 proving he does have what it takes




 
You want horses for dressage that are sharp and on the 'hot' side so they're easier to get in front of your leg and have the really high energy levels to get the impulsion and elevation but often you have to accept the downside of that in as much as they're rather like riding a ticking bomb that's likely to explode at the slightest provocation


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## Yogiwick

Cherie said:


> The horse is question was NOT ready to canter in frame at that time on that day. I think he gave ample warning that he was not ready to take any pressure from his rider. That goes back to 'reading' a horse well.
> 
> Now, if it is lack of solid training or just a horse that lacks being honest and willing part of the time is a question only the owner can answer. To me, he is definitely not solid and shows to be a horse that lacks being honest. Desirable horses are the same every day that you get them out of a stall or the pasture.
> 
> Is it his inborn disposition? Many Impressive bred horses are just like this (as are many others). They have the ability and can have years of training and can do something very well when they feel like it. But, they wake up in a new world every day and you have no idea if they are going to be an angel or a devil that day. It is why I won't own one or never wanted to train any after I saw what many were like. It is also why we only train prospects we raise. All prospects are not created equal.
> 
> If this was during a lesson, I think the rider was under too much pressure to do what the instructor asked instead of what the horse was ready for ON THAT DAY. On that day, he certainly was not ready for the pressure that was put on him. Again, that goes back to learning to read the horse you are on. They just do not go from relaxed and compliant to having a come-apart like this one did. If a rider cannot read and react to what a horse is dishing out, then they are not ready for a prospect like this but need an honest trained horses. Honesty and willingness are SOOOO much more important than ability, especially to a rider that is not in the 'expert' category.


Completely agree and I think that is what it comes down to- it sounds like the OP knew she wasn't riding him the right way at the time and was hesitant about it but was eager to please the instructor.

I have definitely been there.. if you have a clueless instructor it's easy to override them but when you have a very good one that you know knows a lot more than you it's hard to just disregard that because you feel a little off about it.

jaydee- well ridden!!


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## Liligirl

jaydee said:


> I don't know what the OP had been doing in terms of work with the horse prior to what happened this day so can't pass comment on whether or not he was physically prepared to work in a collected frame or not
> What he did wasn't that different to the what David Marcus' horse Capital did in the 2012 Olympics and that horse was certainly sufficiently trained to be competing at that level and was used to the atmosphere of big shows and travelling but he still 'blew up' and lost self control when he got too tense. He rides well through the sudden rainstorm but it was enough to start his focus levels to drop and then all it took was little thing to make him spook to trigger a meltdown at around 3:46
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same horse in 2014 proving he does have what it takes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want horses for dressage that are sharp and on the 'hot' side so they're easier to get in front of your leg and have the really high energy levels to get the impulsion and elevation but often you have to accept the downside of that in as much as they're rather like riding a ticking bomb that's likely to explode at the slightest provocation


Are you sure about this? I mean who would honestly want to ride a horse that they believe may explode at any time? What would be the point of putting in all the training and time when they will likely have an uncontrollable explosion.


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## Skyseternalangel

churumbeque said:


> You must be reading a different post as no one is picking on her. Not your job to moderate.


I'm not moderating, I'm standing up for my friend. There is a huge different between the two. 

I'm an adult, I am allowed to do that. If you have a problem with it, it isn't illegal to skip over my post.


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## churumbeque

Skyseternalangel said:


> I'm not moderating, I'm standing up for my friend. There is a huge different between the two.
> 
> I'm an adult, I am allowed to do that. If you have a problem with it, it isn't illegal to skip over my post.


As you state you are an adult. This isn't high school. Practice as you preach and skip over them. No one needed sticking up for. No one was picking on anyone.


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## churumbeque

I would hope the op is maybe learning from the posts and not feeling picked on. I also would be irritated at the instructor and the person who yelled and scared the horse.


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## churumbeque

jaydee said:


> I don't know what the OP had been doing in terms of work with the horse prior to what happened this day so can't pass comment on whether or not he was physically prepared to work in a collected frame or not
> What he did wasn't that different to the what David Marcus' horse Capital did in the 2012 Olympics and that horse was certainly sufficiently trained to be competing at that level and was used to the atmosphere of big shows and travelling but he still 'blew up' and lost self control when he got too tense. He rides well through the sudden rainstorm but it was enough to start his focus levels to drop and then all it took was little thing to make him spook to trigger a meltdown at around 3:46
> David Marcus ( Canada) - YouTube
> 
> Same horse in 2014 proving he does have what it takes
> David Marcus & Chrevi's Capital,Verden CDI3* Grand Prix 2014 - YouTube
> 
> You want horses for dressage that are sharp and on the 'hot' side so they're easier to get in front of your leg and have the really high energy levels to get the impulsion and elevation but often you have to accept the downside of that in as much as they're rather like riding a ticking bomb that's likely to explode at the slightest provocation


When I watch the first video I see a horse that looks very stiff short strided in the rear. His back legs do not match length of stride as the fronts. He actually looks off on the right rear at the walk. My guess is he was getting ready for a maneuver that was painful for him as he kept acting up at the same place. When he was cantering he kept his back legs together and not one in front of the other. My guess is cantering to the right is painful.
I don't know the test but if he was getting ready for a canter that is what caused the horse to react and tried to evade the maneuver.

Didn't watch much of the 2nd video but he looked slightly better in the back legs.


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## churumbeque

Liligirl said:


> Are you sure about this? I mean who would honestly want to ride a horse that they believe may explode at any time? What would be the point of putting in all the training and time when they will likely have an uncontrollable explosion.


I'm with you Lili. Horses that are balanced and collected are not spooky and unpredictable. Maybe energetic.


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## DanteDressageNerd

Actually Jaydee is correct on top professionals dressage horses. They are often very hot and sensitive. They like it because one they are more expressive, two they often are the flashier movers, three they're sensitive and reactive enough to make for an impressive performance. Explosiveness does happen, even among the great riders with expertly trained horses. These are horses, not computers or programmable machines who will always do what you want at the end of the day and be the same every single day. Horses have bad days too, they have days where something hurts or they're not all there. Yes training absolutely helps this but I think it is a problem when people expect horses to react like programmed machines. And yes if you've ever worked with top professionals or top professionals horses they love the difficult rides. Carl Hester's horse Uthopia is known for being hot. A lot of Anky's horses have been very difficult rides, same with Edward Gal, etc. The professional dutch horses are often very hot, spooky, difficult to work with. Anything Jazz or Crack C. Germany is the same, I saw plenty I wouldn't want to ride. It takes a great deal of tact and skill to ride a horse like that. 

I won't say a lot but I will say I've met David Marcus. Someone I'm close to trained with him in FL. He likes hot horses and rides them VERY-VERY sharp. Horses that are naturally that sharp, he's very careful with but horses who are not naturally that sharp he trains to be that sharp. 

I'm not really commenting on this whole thing. I don't really want to be apart of it but I wanted to talk about the David Marcus/dressage horses thing and point out the horse's frame was not collected and was not that high pressure. The horse is not in a collected outline, his sacrum is not articulated, he is not really round, over his back or "sitting." He isn't through or really on the aids or accepting them which may be part of it. I don't think this is the rider's fault and I think this horse is a complicated ride. I'm leaving it at that.


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## Yogiwick

Have worked with a lot of dressage horses including some professional level ones. Not really my idea of "hot" for the most part.


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## jaydee

There are two types of horses ridden in dressage - the schoolmaster sort that are suited to people starting out or don't like a horse with some fire in it and those that want a horse that's naturally in front of your leg all the time without having to 'kick kick kick'
The sharp, hotter horses are way easier to get the higher levels of movement out of because all your leg cues are focused on asking them what to do in terms of collection, elevation and lateral movements and not at having to keep them moving
They are not beginner horses or even horses for the 'average' rider
The first clip of David Marcus was from the Olympics in 2012 so I doubt the horse was struggling with the 'moves' - you don't get on an Olympic team on a horse that's just out of the novice classes. I'm more inclined to think that the sudden shower of cold rain caused the horses muscles (and brain) to tense up. According to reports from the day he spooked at a camera, something a very 'charged', tense horse will do (spook at stuff it wouldn't normally look twice at) and then couldn't come back from it.

The fact that so many high level horses are like this makes you realize that there are plenty of riders more than willing to cope with it in exchange for performance on the good days


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## tinyliny

I agree with Churumbunque's assessment of that video of the Olympic ride. I've seen cowponies have better hind end engagement. that horse does appear to be uncomfortable. the way he jumped at his tantrum , with both hinds togetehr like a bunny hop ? that speaks for some problem in his hips or back back there.

he moved better in the second video.


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## Liligirl

I guess I think of hot horses in the wrong term. When I think hot I think high energy. I now will think prone to random bucking and rearing fits which are near uncontrollable for anyone but a very experienced rider 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

What I saw in the video where he blew up was a horse that was either uncomfortable or mad or both. I saw a lot of resistance and a horse that was not happy with his job. He took just so much pressure and blew like a pressure cooker.

I think a good horse can be very forward without getting mad or blowing up. Again, willingness and trainability play large factors in the amount of pressure a horse will take. Also, the more ability and volatility a horse has, the better their rider needs to be at reading that horse and knowing when to stop asking for more than the horse can give.

I do not think there is much difference in that factor whether it is a World Class Cutting horse, reining horse, barrel racing horse, jumper or Dressage horse. Every horse has a limit to the amount of pressure they will stand. This horse just hit that limit before his rider backed off. Discomfort may or may not have lowered that threshold point of blowing up. We will never know.


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## Palomine

This from your OP.

"I am now in the process of sending him off to a new trainer with her fully understanding the risk she is taking by working with him as he has a history with exploding like this, just not hurting someone this bad."

What exactly do you mean, he does this frequently? And with whom?

Sorry but to me, if he indeed has a history, then he isn't worth it, for trainer or you to be working with.

Could be so many things, ultrasound might give clues but now that he has learned this, and knows he can get people off, just don't think horse is safe.

What I saw was a horse thinking hard about doing exactly what he did, which was to blow, and eventually unseat you.


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## jaydee

churumbeque said:


> I'm with you Lili. Horses that are balanced and collected are not spooky and unpredictable. Maybe energetic.


I'm guessing that you've never had any experience of riding super fit top level dressage, jumping, eventing or hunting horses then!!!
And a really good rider will not dismiss a talented horse because its thrown a few less experienced riders. The Irish Show jumper Boomerang was gifted to Eddie Macken because he had some slight navicular and was considered too difficult and yet went on the be a top horse at all world level
Dressage is one of the toughest because the horses have to be extremely fit and energetic to perform those moves but at the same time all that energy has to be tightly contained. Its like shaking a bottle of fizzy drink - OK if you can keep the top on it but the moment that top is released it explodes everywhere
As long as there's nothing physically wrong with the OP's horse it does nothing that would frighten a good experienced rider that's used to dealing with volatile horses.


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## churumbeque

jaydee said:


> I'm guessing that you've never had any experience of riding super fit top level dressage, jumping, eventing or hunting horses then!!!
> And a really good rider will not dismiss a talented horse because its thrown a few less experienced riders. The Irish Show jumper Boomerang was gifted to Eddie Macken because he had some slight navicular and was considered too difficult and yet went on the be a top horse at all world level
> Dressage is one of the toughest because the horses have to be extremely fit and energetic to perform those moves but at the same time all that energy has to be tightly contained. Its like shaking a bottle of fizzy drink - OK if you can keep the top on it but the moment that top is released it explodes everywhere
> As long as there's nothing physically wrong with the OP's horse it does nothing that would frighten a good experienced rider that's used to dealing with volatile horses.


You are correct but I have not seen hores explode either when watching competitions so I doubt it is that common. Even though I haven't ridden them believe it or not, I do have a tv and have seen many competitions and not once seen a horse act up.


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## Sadie Giddys Up

I feel like in my experience and training with horses is that there is no "bomb-proof" horse. They are still animals with the fight or flight mentality so you have to be ready for when they get spooked or get a little crazy on you. I think there were previous posters on here saying learning how to defensively ride as well as emergency dismount is a really good lesson to learn. And by saying that I am certainly NOT suggesting you should have been able to 100% get off before you were hurt, just saying that we all know that being an Equestrian has its risks and we continue to ride for the love of it. Being ready for the spooks and crazies is all you can do really! 

Glad you were wearing a helmet!


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## Gossalyn

jaydee said:


> I don't know what the OP had been doing in terms of work with the horse prior to what happened this day so can't pass comment on whether or not he was physically prepared to work in a collected frame or not
> What he did wasn't that different to the what David Marcus' horse Capital did in the 2012 Olympics and that horse was certainly sufficiently trained to be competing at that level and was used to the atmosphere of big shows and travelling but he still 'blew up' and lost self control when he got too tense. He rides well through the sudden rainstorm but it was enough to start his focus levels to drop and then all it took was little thing to make him spook to trigger a meltdown at around 3:46
> 
> You want horses for dressage that are sharp and on the 'hot' side so they're easier to get in front of your leg and have the really high energy levels to get the impulsion and elevation but often you have to accept the downside of that in as much as they're rather like riding a ticking bomb that's likely to explode at the slightest provocation


OMG... I hope that if one day, when my horse is exploding on me and refuses to quit it.. I too will have the time to ADJUST MY HAT while dealing with the rearing/bucking/shoulder dropping ball of nerves underneath me.

That is AMAZING. 

Oh, and regarding the rest of the thread: Thanks OP for posting the video, I think we all terribly want to learn from these things.. but sometimes there aren't any easy answers, I can't say I would have done much better.


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## churumbeque

Liligirl said:


> I guess I think of hot horses in the wrong term. When I think hot I think high energy. I now will think prone to random bucking and rearing fits which are near uncontrollable for anyone but a very experienced rider
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So now when you read for sale ads that say hot you know that is code word for bucking and rearing.


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## jaydee

Surely anyone experienced enough with horses must realize that if a high energy horse can't release that energy in a positive way then its going to do it in a less desirable way?
Some horse do have much better self control than others but never depend on it when if you do ever buy a 'hot' horse, sometimes it just takes one little thing to make them lose it
Some of the worlds top eventers showing how badly a hot horse can behave when the situation pushes them to the limit




 And even a horse that's been really well trained to deal with the London crowds before it gets exposed to ceremonial duty can have a 'moment' when it all goes wrong


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## Foxhunter

I have been to several top eventer said stables and it is very surprising how majority of the horses are not what I would call well mannered. 
A heck of a lot of them are greatly lacking respect when a person is on the ground!

Another thing, if you watch how they are turning the horse, they turn tight instead of walking a small circle at the end. 

When taking the horses racing so many in the paddock leading around prior to being mounted were bordering on dangerous to other horses and people around. Sorry, I don't care if they are exceedingly fit and screaming to race, _they still have to have manners!_

I would take them out at home, run them up, make sure they concentrated on me and kept all their energy for racing. 

One horse was particularly bad, I had broken him in several months before and he certainly knew better. He had a nasty tread and had been lame, stood in for a few days and the lad who looked after him tried to lead him up to see if he was sound. A couple of attempts and i don't think the horse had had more than one foot on the ground at a time. 

Someone else tried and it was the same. I was then asked to take him, he started to mess, got a good whack, a jerk on the reins and a vocal telling off. I made him stand then backed him up making him stand again he walked away nicely when I started to turn him he was ready to mess around. He was corrected and ran up with a loose rein. 

They can be corrected without loosing that special oomph that to class horses need.


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## beau159

No horse is bomb proof. 

Even a world champion. 

They can all have their moments. After all, they have a mind of their own.


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## Zexious

^Agreed. They're not vehicles.


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## Liligirl

Peoples are not saying they are vehicles but there is a difference between a horse that is having a "moment" and a horse that wants you off and will do what it takes to make it happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick

Foxhunter said:


> I have been to several top eventer said stables and it is very surprising how majority of the horses are not what I would call well mannered.
> A heck of a lot of them are greatly lacking respect when a person is on the ground!
> 
> Another thing, if you watch how they are turning the horse, they turn tight instead of walking a small circle at the end.
> 
> When taking the horses racing so many in the paddock leading around prior to being mounted were bordering on dangerous to other horses and people around. Sorry, I don't care if they are exceedingly fit and screaming to race, _they still have to have manners!_
> 
> I would take them out at home, run them up, make sure they concentrated on me and kept all their energy for racing.
> 
> One horse was particularly bad, I had broken him in several months before and he certainly knew better. He had a nasty tread and had been lame, stood in for a few days and the lad who looked after him tried to lead him up to see if he was sound. A couple of attempts and i don't think the horse had had more than one foot on the ground at a time.
> 
> Someone else tried and it was the same. I was then asked to take him, he started to mess, got a good whack, a jerk on the reins and a vocal telling off. I made him stand then backed him up making him stand again he walked away nicely when I started to turn him he was ready to mess around. He was corrected and ran up with a loose rein.
> 
> They can be corrected without loosing that special oomph that to class horses need.


Completely agree with this. They aren't going to school the horse then and there and the horse knows it. Also it seems to be a trend of "working through" things which has it's place but ultimatly has just become ignoring the bad behavior.

No excuse. Also, that is clearly a busy arena with a million things to be concerned about and there is clearly something down at the other end that they aren't thrilled about turning their backs too, when they all do the same exact thing there's something going on.


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## my2geldings

enh817 said:


> I also agree that he looks pretty confident making those moves, like it wasn't the first time he has evaded pressure by bucking.


 That was my thought exactly. Yes we can make errors as riders, but imo I do feel like his reaction was one he did to get you off, not a panic reaction. To my it looked intentional regardless of what got it started. Mean horse.

Glad you are taking the steps to have someone work with him. Did you end up hurt?


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