# unbalanced canter..?



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm going to paste a reply I made to another person with the same problem. It will save me a lot of typing....

To offer some advise, You need to develop a better connection with your horse to better channel his balance and energy. However, until you learn to make your arms more fluid, you will not be able to do this. Your arms are too stiff and allow no absorption of the up and down movement of your rising trot seat. As a result, your hands bob up and down as you do your rising trot. Unlock those elbows and shoulders. As you rise, your elbows should open, allowing your hands to "drop" (not really, it just feels that way. They will actually stay in place)....as you lower into the saddle, your elbows should close. You see, your hands must be still and stay in the same place relative to the HORSE, not relative to your body...which is going up and down. Watch the video and see how your hands follow your movement, not the horse's. 

Only when your hands can remain still, relative to the horse, can you apply the leg and move him into the bridle, catching the energy with an increased contact. Until you can do this and increase the energy level, it will be difficult to lighten him on his forehand.

I teach my students to change their posting diagonal the moment they start their change of rein across the diagonal. I do not want them to change posting diagonals at X. When you do this, you throw an inconsistent seat at them when you most want them to demonstrate their best consistent trot. By changing at the beginning of their trip across the diagonal, you keep the seat much more consistent and actually start the preparation to the new bend at the end of the diagonal. Remember, posting diagonals are a tool to increase the horse's bend. I was taught this early on by my German dressage coach.

Also, when beginning your free walk across the diagonal, wait until you leave the track before you allow the horse to stretch down. By allowing him to lower while turning out of the corner, you allowed him to dive onto his forehand.

I am not too familiar with the walk/trot tests, but I believe they need to be back in the medium walk at the end of the diagonal. You allowed him to coast through the corner still in free walk. Start regaining your contact well before the end of the diagonal (slowly) so that the horse is "back in the bridle" as soon as he regains the track.

You are riding a bit too much on your knees. As a result, your lower leg swings back from the knee, causing your upper body to become unbalanced and tilt forward. Let go with the knees and allow your leg to drape along the horse's sides. You leg wraps around the horse's barrel keeping fairly consistent contact throughout your whole leg.

WOW! This sounds like a lot of things going wrong. Not really! These are all things that one works on in the beginning and they are easy to fix. I really like you two and wish I could get my hands on you. I bet you two would be fun to work with as you both have plenty of inherent talent.
Have fun!!

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/please-critique-again-much-better-video-80736/#ixzz1H6TrqdmX


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Many times we are told to have "quiet hands". We translate it to mean our hands should never move them (relative to ourselves is how we apply it). Actually, we must keep our hands still relative to the horse. When a horse moves, the head and neck are in constant motion and our arms must be as well to absorb this movement.

A good way to get a feel of the arms need for flexibility is to have someone stand next to the horse's head, facing you. Have them hold a rein near to the bit. Then have them pull and release on the rein to simulate the horse's head "bobbing" while it moves. At first the rein will come across your hands resistance to moving at all, causing the reins to snap loose and tight. Then you must soften your whole arm so that it can move with the rein. Remember, you must keep a CONSTANT contact with the rein, not an inconsistent one.

Think of contact as a slight pull back on the rein. How much you need depends on what you need to do to contain the horse's energy. Let's say you need a half pound of "pull" on the rein. As the horse moves you need that same 1/2 pound at all times. If you need to half halt, you briefly add a couple of pounds and then go right back to your 1/2 pound while you register how the horse responded to your extra pounds (half halt). 

Your ability to keep that steady, reliable contact through the reins is what it is all about. Try that exercise so that you can see how much your arms must move to keep those quiet hands (relative to the HORSE, now).

CHEERS!!


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## KawaiiCharlie (Nov 17, 2010)

i dont get how that will stop her from leaning when she canters? lol


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

OOOPS!!!

I copied the wrong post! Blond moment. Try this one...

Horses collapse in on a circle usually due to lack of proper bend and balance.

Picture a bicycle going around a corner. It cannot bend so you have to lean in to get it to turn. A horse who doesn't bend also leans in and often bends to the outside (nose pointing out). This causes the horse to throw a tremendous amount of their weight onto the inside shoulder, further hampering their ability to bend. When they lean in, it causes the rider to lean in too, putting even MORE weight onto that hampered inside shoulder. This causes the horse to collapse onto that inside shoulder and they will fall into the circle making it smaller and smaller. Pulling on the outside rein to "make the circle bigger" only throws EVEN MORE weight onto that offending inside shoulder!

See how this is like a snowball rolling downhill? It only gets worse and worse.

So, how do you fix it?

Work on helping your horse lighten their inside shoulder, put more weight onto their outside shoulder so that they can bend properly for the circle you are riding. There are some things you can do, initially, to help the horse out. First, start with your inside leg at the girth. Push your leg into her as if you were asking for her to move laterally out. Bring her nose toward the inside with light inside direct rein. Keep your outside rein steady and supportive so that she can move into it and use it for balance.(HMM I guess I am assuming you are in a snaffle. If not, this advise may be off for you).

You can help by putting more of your weight onto the outside seatbone (stirrup) to help her get your weight off that inside shoulder. Once she starts bending better, you won't have to do this anymore.

You may have to do lots of small, gentle half halts with the inside rein to encourage her to get off that inside shoulder and not lean on that inside rein for balance.

The big thing is to fix her at the walk, then and only then move to the trot and start over with that gait. Then, and only then, move to the canter using the same aids you started with at the walk.

I hope this helps you out. 

Just remember, you are asking the horse to change the only way they know how to balance, so they will not understand at first. Be Patient. Don't get mad, just keep asking for improvement. The SECOND she does it even a little bit better, verbally praise her. She will get it since she surely wants to be better balanced. She will soon appreciate her balance and will be much happier.



Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/riding-circle-help-79931/#ixzz1H6ZygzjH


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

to stop her from leaning i would use more outside rein to balance her. If she is falling in she is probably popping out the outside shoulder so i would put my outside knee on her but keep contact with my inside leg to stop her from falling in. you need to stand her up so make sure your shoulders are straight and that your not leaning yourself.


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## KawaiiCharlie (Nov 17, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> OOOPS!!!
> 
> I copied the wrong post! Blond moment. Try this one...
> 
> ...



that makes alot more sense! lol. shes not in a snaffle, shes actually in a dutch gag, but the reins are only on the cheek ring. i personally dont think she needs to be in a dutch gag, since i can stop her easily just using my seat, but thats what her owner wants her in so... *shrug*

Thanks for the advice, i'll try it out tomorrow


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## KawaiiCharlie (Nov 17, 2010)

Bandera said:


> to stop her from leaning i would use more outside rein to balance her. If she is falling in she is probably popping out the outside shoulder so i would put my outside knee on her but keep contact with my inside leg to stop her from falling in. you need to stand her up so make sure your shoulders are straight and that your not leaning yourself.


using the outside rein is only going to turn her head more to the outside so she has to put more weight on her inside leg to be able to turn, i dont think that will help. 
i know for a fact im not leaning, because ive never had the problem with any other horse. only her, shes not had a great deal of schooling..if any..in the past 2 or 3 years.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Bandera said:


> to stop her from leaning i would use more outside rein to balance her. If she is falling in she is probably popping out the outside shoulder
> 
> *No, actually she is diving onto her inside shoulder. This keeps her from being able to bend. If she were "popping" her outside shoulder, she would be able to bend much easier.*
> 
> ...


This is a really COMMON problem. Increase her bend, help her balance, then add impulsion and you will see a different horse.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> This is a really COMMON problem. Increase her bend, help her balance,
> 
> No, actually increasing the bend will not help at all but will let the horse pop its outside shoulder more, leaning does not have a lot to do with bend but with the horse being balanced and bending her will not help her balance.
> 
> ...


Hm... okay. Well my horse leans in all the time at the canter and i fix it all the time by doing what i said. Yes you need to step in the outside stirrup and keep weight in the outside seat bone. By applying more outside reins you are not asking for counter flexion but asking the horse to stand up. your inside leg should be keeping your horse flexed to the inside not the outside rein. when applying your outside reins you have to take more inside rein as well. you must use your inside leg to push your horse up and out into your outside rein but still bending around your leg.

yes the horse is most likely popping the outside shoulder but even if it isnt the outside knee will help the horse to stand up.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

Sorry i forgot to highlight my words in the quote, this is what i said:
No, actually increasing the bend will not help at all but will let the horse pop its outside shoulder more, leaning does not have a lot to do with bend but with the horse being balanced and bending her will not help her balance. 

o if her horse leans and goes faster in corners how will impulsion help? The only way it could help is if you take with the reins and ask her to slow with the seat as much as you ask for the impulsion to cause the horse to collect up? Is this what you are implying?

So i have read the posts over and over and is the horse popping out its inside shoulder or leaning??? Because they are two different thing. If the horse is popping out its its shoulders than Allison Finch is correct with what you should do, if he is leaning than i believe i am correct. 

half circle right showing some medium canter strides... | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

For example here is a horse that is leaning in and notice how she has more contact with the inside rein and she also leans in. Also notice how the horses back inside leg is reaching under. When a horse leans in its no only putting pressure on its inside front shoulder but also reaching under with there leg, oustide rein and knee helps shift the weight. Also notice how the horses ribcage swings out, use the leg and seat to shift the rib cage in the middle of the horses body, bend to the inside while the ribcage is out already with cause the horse to collapse to the inside more. 

counter canter | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Best photo i could find of a horse popping its inside shoulder, if this is what your horse does put your inside leg and knee on and push the horse into your outside rein.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

Oh by the way that pic is not some one i know, just found it on google, lol i just noticed its the same person...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

My understanding with leaning would pretty much require the inside shoulder to be more heavily waited, and thus "falling in" . That sounds better than "popping the inside shoulder". However, we should as the OP about the bend, is this horse falling into the circle while bending toward the outside (looking toward outside and bending neck that way?) or bent correctly on the circle but leaning over as if she is goosing it around the circle like some kind of motorcycle.

My inclination is to do what Allison suggested, after she got over her mind fart.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Bandera, if your horse leans in in canter 'all the time' and you do what you said to fix it.... is it really 'fixed' if she does it 'all time time'? A little contradictory. 


To add to Allison's excellent post, I will say that remember, straightness and having a horse upright is very hard when the horse is not travelling forward. If she's just mooching along in canter on the forehand, of course she will be falling in on that shoulder to keep her self 'balanced' aka not falling over! 
I would try cantering some straight lines and big wide curves rather than circles to start with, and practice asking her to move off your leg. Drive her forward, then ask her to come back to your seat, then drive her forward again until you can feel that her hind legs are starting to activate and that she is 'pushing' off of them rather than just dragging them along behind her.
When she will easily go forward with impulsion, start to bring the work back to a 20m circle, following Allison's detailed instruction. And outside rein WILL help, depending on how you use it. Simply holding the outside rein against her neck won't do anything particularly if she is not trained in how to work into this contact. 
To help keep her upright, I find what helps me when riding young and green horses, is to think that I am literally picking up the shoulders and moving them to the outside. 
So I will open my outside rein a little off the horse's neck, take my outside knee and thigh slightly off the saddle. Bring my inside rein a little closer to the neck and close my whole inside leg on (including knee and thigh - not gripping, just closed). 
This essentially creates a barrier on the inside of the circle, and opens the outside of the circle, encouraging her to 'lift' her shoulders upright and to the outside. 
Works on my youngsters, but again, over the internet it's hard to explain something like this without seeing you ride as I don't know what level you are at to be able to apply these concepts.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i always say better canter doesn't come from canter work. better canter comes from a better trot - which is how a horse can build up muscling and work on balance. then when you go back to canter after several weeks of trot sets, bending, change of direction, etc., you will find you have a much better canter because the horse has built up the muscles they need to be able to canter with balance and impulsion.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Bandera said:


> Sorry i forgot to highlight my words in the quote, this is what i said:
> No, actually increasing the bend will not help at all but will let the horse pop its outside shoulder more,
> 
> 
> ...



I guess we either see the problem totally differently, or we just disagree on how to fix it. I get this problem with almost every new student I get. It is very easily fixed, IME. I have yet to fail to get this problem under control within a couple of lessons, usually only one lesson.


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## KawaiiCharlie (Nov 17, 2010)

Kayty said:


> Bandera, if your horse leans in in canter 'all the time' and you do what you said to fix it.... is it really 'fixed' if she does it 'all time time'? A little contradictory.
> 
> 
> To add to Allison's excellent post, I will say that remember, straightness and having a horse upright is very hard when the horse is not travelling forward. If she's just mooching along in canter on the forehand, of course she will be falling in on that shoulder to keep her self 'balanced' aka not falling over!
> ...



Thank you!  heres my youtube channel, theres a few videos of me riding different horses on there YouTube - KawaiiCharlie's Channel if thats any help


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## KawaiiCharlie (Nov 17, 2010)

CJ82Sky said:


> i always say better canter doesn't come from canter work. better canter comes from a better trot - which is how a horse can build up muscling and work on balance. then when you go back to canter after several weeks of trot sets, bending, change of direction, etc., you will find you have a much better canter because the horse has built up the muscles they need to be able to canter with balance and impulsion.


makes sense. i wouldnt say she has much muscle, mostly fat ****. 
we've actually had to change her saddle, where shes lost weight he saddle doesnt fit now. and she needs a new girth, hers is too loose now. i'll stick to trot work for a little longer to build up her muscles.


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## KawaiiCharlie (Nov 17, 2010)

would any of you be able to look at my other thread about my work with lily and give me some advice?  more pictures of me riding her etc on there. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/lilys-progress-81361/


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> My inclination is to do what Allison suggested, after she got over her mind fart.


LOL!! It is not MY fault that I am blonde!!

Oh, wait.......that color did come out of a box......:twisted:


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Bandera said:


> Hm... okay. Well my horse leans in all the time at the canter and i fix it all the time by doing what i said. Yes you need to step in the outside stirrup and keep weight in the outside seat bone. By applying more outside reins you are not asking for counter flexion but asking the horse to stand up. your inside leg should be keeping your horse flexed to the inside not the outside rein. when applying your outside reins you have to take more inside rein as well. you must use your inside leg to push your horse up and out into your outside rein but still bending around your leg.
> 
> .



The horse is crooked.

The fact that while you THINK you solve the problem, the fact that it reoccurs should tell you that you have not. Your method is a stop gap fix that is both looking at the wrong area to correct and does not correct on a long term basis.

This is a common problem though and most people don't even understand what the horse is REALLY doing that causes the crookedness in the first place...hence the wrong "cure".


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

Correction to my previous statement. My horse use to do it all the time because she was green and unbalanced so i had to rebalance her until she got it. A horse is not going to have to be rebalanced once and its going to stay that way lol. It took my about a month for my horse to become fully balanced and now i dont have to remind her to balance up again. What i said may not work on your horse but it *has* cured mine and now, even at 6, she is pretty balanced.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Bandera said:


> Correction to my previous statement. My horse use to do it all the time because she was green and unbalanced so i had to rebalance her until she got it. A horse is not going to have to be rebalanced once and its going to stay that way lol. It took my about a month for my horse to become fully balanced and now i dont have to remind her to balance up again. What i said may not work on your horse but it *has* cured mine and now, even at 6, she is pretty balanced.



As long as you stay in the lower levels of riding you will probably get away with what you did.

If you were to advance in dressage however rein corrections without understanding that the problem is in placement of the horse's hind legs will come back to haunt you.

My horse BTW is very nicely balanced.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

So as i have said before i dont use just rein connections, and acctually i am working at about 2nd level with my horse and 3rd level with others and have been just focusing on dressage for 7 months or so, with out any jumping so i think i have advanced into dressage. I am not 'getting away' with what i did as it has fixed the problem for many months now. I know that it is the in the placement of the hind leg and i use *some* rein to help shift the weight over, i use my seat and leg to do the rest. 

As i said before it *has* worked for me, it *still* works for me, and from what i see so far it *will* work for me and my horse and has worked for many other horses i ride at more of an advanced level.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Interesting to note how much your 'effective straightening method' has changed considerably over the last few posts... hmmmmm


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

changed???? i kind of think it has stayed the same..... I don't even know why i am explaining this stuff to you since you guys apparently 'already know' like i said...
1. Outside reins IS the balancing rein, so yes you must use some of it
2. If the horse IS leaning and NOT just popping its inside shoulder put outside knee on the horse and weight outside seat bone and stirrup.
3. Push your horse up into your outside rein so it can maintain the bend, stand up straight and still come round. 

As you saw in the pictures i showed you guys, the horse that is leaning has his inside leg reaching to far under him, to stop that you must push the horse over almost like a half pass to the middle of the circle, thus making the inside leg reach out more causing the horse to stand up more. 

As i have said numerous times, this has worked for my horse, if you dont believe me fine, your lose. 

And if anything i have just elaborated and went into more detail about how i solved my problem, so please, enlighten me on how my, as you said 'effective training method' has changed.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

'your loss'.. hmmm yes, Spyder obviously needs to adapt to your method to be successful


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

Oh wow. So i was actually talking to you and not Spyder lol. And what i meant was its you loss for apparently not believing that it worked for me and being so close minded. I AM NOT forcing this on people lol, just putting in what worked for me. Dear God sorry if i stepped on your guys toes, apparently you know everything about balance, what works, what doesnt so go for it, do your own thing.
I guess i need to adapt to your methods to become successful, oh wait i already have been successful. Sooooo.... stop forcing YOUR opinions on me. 
So i guess when people give advice here (which is what i assume this place is for) and they are not what another person does its wrong, incorrect, you have to make snide comments, be rude, nit pick at every word, and put words in other peoples mouths. Haha sounds like high school. 

Anyways, how about we grow up and act like real adults and try to HELP each other, and not be so close minded and get back to this post and back to what the horse forums are really about.


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