# Severe or not?? Argentine snaffle



## Spirithorse

An argentine snaffle is pretty much the same thing as a tom thumb. And a TRUE snaffle does not have shanks. Yes, they are harsh and they are really poorly made. Poor communication. Pretty much a crap bit.

Why not just start your horse in a simple snaffle? And why go to a grazing bit? That's pretty harsh as well.


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## Abby

Grazing bits are gentle in proper hands given short shanks due to the low port. I would much prefer a Mullen mouth but many disagree.


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## BluMagic

It's not a popluar bit here that I know of so I don't know too much about it.


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## mlkarel2010

It's one of the 3 bits that we use when we train horses at our stables. The horses don't seem to have a problem with it. I do feel that the Tom Thumb and the Argentine have their differences that make them work differently. If you look at pictures the tom thumb is almost perpendicular to the headstall and the argentine alsmot lies on the same line as it..... I'm not a bit expert, but I would think that would make them work somewhat differently


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## quixotesoxs

I really don't understand why people think argentines are so severe. They are less sever than a tom thumb due to the bend. A curb bit has a lot of tongue pressure and will not work for two handing at all, which makes it tough to train a horse to neck rein in. Therefore, I always move my horses into an argentine and once they get neck reining down I may consider using a curb. I think your plan is perfect for training your colt. spirithorse, have you ever used an aregentine? They have a totally different feel from a tom thumb, and she will eventually have to move up to a bit with shanks if she is going to neck rein. So yes, I like argentines. I have used them on many successful horses in different disciplines. However, any bit with shanks is severe in the wrong hands. But if you are soft handed an argentine is not a severe bit. Just my two cents.


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## Spirithorse

I would never use argentine. But I have ridden horses who were ridden in a TT and argentine and there was no good communication that came from those bits, IMO. The horses didn't respond to them at all. I rode them just like I ride my own horse, who's in a snaffle, and it was horrible.


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## loganisle

*Revisiting*

I use an Argentine snaffle with curb strap on my gaited Rocky Mountain horse. She loves it. No chewing, no fussing. In my opinion she doesn't need the curb, however it's been nice to help with tweaking. She goes equally well, gaiting or not, in a halter and lead rope or a Dr. Cook bitless. As in anything else, it's all in the training and in having a knowledgeable hand on the other end of the reins.


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## mls

Spirithorse said:


> An argentine snaffle is pretty much the same thing as a tom thumb.


Where did you get that information?


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## back in the crosby again

Well, I think these posts definitely support your statement that some love them and some hate them. 

I personally would not start a horse in anything other then a loose ring snaffle regardless of what I am training the horse for.


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## smrobs

I know nothing about the Argentine snaffle but I personally don't care for anything with the combination of shanks and a broken mouthpiece. I start all of my younsters in a loose ring snaffle and then when I feel they are ready (neck rein pretty well and are well behaved), I move them up to a swivel shank curb with a solid mouth.

This is the same type that I use on my finished horses.









The swivel shanks allow one handed correction when necessary and there is enough of a port for tongue relief but not enough to interfere with the roof of the mouth (in most horses).

On another note, any bit can be mild or harsh depending on the hands of the rider. All bits have the potential to inflict pain if used improperly (even simple snaffles). However, there are many people who absolutely love those bits that all others say are "incredibly harsh" because they use them softly and have good results. I have known people that had wonderful results in a tom thumb, spade, cathedral, etc. However, I have also seen the disasterous aftermath of those same bits in other hands.


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## wild_spot

> I really don't understand why people think argentines are so severe. They are less sever than a tom thumb due to the bend. A curb bit has a lot of tongue pressure and will not work for two handing at all, which makes it tough to train a horse to neck rein in. Therefore, *I always move my horses into an argentine and once they get neck reining down I may consider using a curb*. I think your plan is perfect for training your colt. spirithorse, have you ever used an aregentine? They have a totally different feel from a tom thumb, and *she will eventually have to move up to a bit with shanks if she is going to neck rein*. So yes, I like argentines. I have used them on many successful horses in different disciplines. However, any bit with shanks is severe in the wrong hands. But if you are soft handed an argentine is not a severe bit. Just my two cents.


ANY BIT with leverage, is a curb. Any bit with zero leverage, is a snaffle. A bit with a broken mouthpeice and shanks, is a curb with a broken mouthpeice, not a snaffle. A snaffle doesn't necessarily have a broken mouth piece, it can be mullen mouthed.

Also, you don't have to be in a curb to neck rein. I neck rein both my horses perfectly fine in snaffles.


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## EternalSun

Amen to that, Wild Spot.

Remember, the mouthpiece has NOTHING to do with whether or not the bit is a snaffle or curb. It's all about whether there are shanks or direct contact with the mouth.


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## mls

EternalSun said:


> Remember, the mouthpiece has NOTHING to do with whether or not the bit is a snaffle or curb.


A broken mouthpiece has a snaffle action and IS less severe than a solid mouth piece.


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## MaieuticManege

you would think so, but it's exactly the opposite simply because of the bits design. the Argentine, however, is a tad bit less severe than the TT because of it's curved cheeks, but other than that the bits function the same.

Today's Horse - The Trouble with Tom Thumb


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## wild_spot

> A broken mouthpiece has a snaffle action and IS less severe than a solid mouth piece


Why do you think that? A broken mouthpeice has a nutcracker action and can stab up into the roof of the mouth or down into the tongue. The sides also collapse on the bars of the mouth. Combining that with shanks drives the point of the broken mouthpeice down into the tongue as well as the bars collapsing on the sides of the mouth, as well as the increased pressure with all but the lightest aids creates a LOT of pressure on a lot of different places in the horses mouth.

A solid mouthpeice does not have a nutcracker action, and does not collapse onto the bars of the horses mouth. A ported mullen mouth, the more common type in curb bits (I think?) is even more mild. As the mouthpeice rotates in the horses mouth with the effect of the shanks, the port still allows the horse tongue relief. If the port is SUPER high, it can contact the roof of the mouth, but because it is solid it is still softer than the pointed end of a nutcrackered broken mouthpiece. 

As said above, the mouthpiece of a bit has nothing to do with the distinction between curb and snaffle. The difference? A snaffle has a 1:1 pressure ratio. 1 ounce of pressure is put on the reins by the rider, and 1 ounce of pressure is felt by the mouth of the horse.

In a curb, this ratio starts at 1:2 and increases with a few factors, mainly the length and angle of the shanks. 1 ounce of pressure is put on the reins by the rider, and 2 or more times that pressure is felt my the mouth, chin, and poll of the horse.

That is the difference between a snaffle and a curb. Both snaffle AND curb can have broken, mullen, or ported mouthpieces.


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## iridehorses

Wild spot is correct concerning the differences between a snaffle and a curb. What constitutes the severity is the mouthpiece and (on a shanked bit) the ratio of the purchase to the shank plus the shape of the shank.

As to the original post, I would use the sequence you mentioned but without the Argentine bit. It simply serves no good purpose especially if you are going to use a Billy Allen. If you are going to use it anyway (which, again, I would avoid), then that should be the last bit.


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## QH Girl

*Snaffle & Shank Bits Don't Work The Same Way...*



Spirithorse said:


> I would never use Argentine. But I have ridden horses who were ridden in a TT and Argentine and there was no good communication that came from those bits, IMO. The horses didn't respond to them at all. I rode them just like I ride my own horse, who's in a snaffle, and it was horrible.


Spirit Horse, In my understanding of how a snaffle bits and a shank bit work...they do not work the same, therefore you cannot ride them the same. While I have never used an Argentine Bit, I have used similar bits. Snaffle bit puts pressure on the lower bars and corners of the mouth where has Shank bits work off the upper bars and palette of the mouth as well chin and poll pressure. Shank bits are leverage bits, and when you are using one you want to use lift rather then pull back like in your snaffle. 
Just my two cents.


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## HooverH

I was about to say that, QH. Going from a full cheek snaffle to a shanked hackamore caused a lot of communication problems for Hoover and me...my fault, not his or the bits! I was still pulling straight back, and actually had him fall over on me he was so confused.


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## Allison Finch

A snaffle with shanks and a curb chain is very severe. It uses the "nutcracker" of the snaffle with a curb chain/shanks that pull it hard onto the bars of the horse's mouth. Use a simple curb bit or a snaffle, not a bit that is both.


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## wild_spot

> A snaffle with shanks and a curb chain is very severe.


* A curb with a broken mouthpiece. Nothing snaffle about it :]


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## kevinshorses

I wouldn't start a horse in a hackamore. They are designed and have been used for centuries as a stepping stone between the snaffle and the spade bit. I doesn't work well with direct reining because the reins are attached at the same point so that when you pull on the left rein the hackamore turns to the right and puts pressure on the left side of the face. Just use a snaffle and if you must use a hackamore get educated about how it's supposed to be used.


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## kevinshorses

I have said it before and I will say it again *THE BIT IS ONLY AS HARSH AS THE HANDS USING IT.* I have seen people use snaffles and I thought they might as well have barb-wire in thier mouth for the damage it was doing. I have a horse that I ride in a bit that would send many of you into convulsions but he was prepared for it is comfortable in it and does really well in it.


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## roro

kevinshorses said:


> I have said it before and I will say it again *THE BIT IS ONLY AS HARSH AS THE HANDS USING IT.* I have seen people use snaffles and I thought they might as well have barb-wire in thier mouth for the damage it was doing. I have a horse that I ride in a bit that would send many of you into convulsions but he was prepared for it is comfortable in it and does really well in it.


That is a vague statement that is only half the truth. I agree that the hands of the rider are very important, but there are bits with different severity and designs for a very obvious reason. A light pull on a lozenge snaffle will feel very different to a horse then a light pull on something that is designed to be more severe, like a twisted snaffle combination bit. A horse can feel the difference between two bits without any rein contact at all. The bit could be pressing against the roof of their mouth, pinching their tongue, rubbing their lips, etc; all without someone yanking on the bit. A severe bit in gentle hands is still that- it is more severe then a snaffle bit in gentle hands. A severe bit causes greater infliction of discomfort and pain, therefore the rider has no need to give a hard pull because a small pull will cause enough discomfort to have false control over a horse. If a horse is said to "need" a harsh bit, it is because the only way the rider can control the horse is through pain and discomfort.


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## Allison Finch

wild_spot said:


> ANY BIT with leverage, is a curb. Any bit with zero leverage, is a snaffle. A bit with a broken mouthpeice and shanks, is a curb with a broken mouthpeice, not a snaffle. A snaffle doesn't necessarily have a broken mouth piece, it can be mullen mouthe


UMMMM, not really. 

Gag bits have leverage, but are not curbs.....
Dutch jumper (ring) bits have leverage, but are not curbs.
Elevator bits have leverage, but are not curbs.

These both use leverage to pull the crown piece of the bridle onto the poll nerve, not the jaw. Kinder than a curb, IMHO.

I don't like argentines because they have all the severity of both curb and snaffle (nutcracker action on jaw) but none of the kindness.


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## wild_spot

^ Technically, any gag or elevator bit IS a curb, they are just classified differently to make them easier to identify. A snaffle is any bit that has a 1:1 pressure ratio - A curb is any bit that has a greater pressure ratio than 1:1.


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## xEquestrianx

Personally... I don't like Argentines... My friend rides her gelding in one, and is always giving trouble with it...
And for a curb...? Mullen mouths are great as well as jr. cowhorse bits.


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## Allison Finch

wild_spot said:


> ^ Technically, any gag or elevator bit IS a curb, they are just classified differently to make them easier to identify. A snaffle is any bit that has a 1:1 pressure ratio - A curb is any bit that has a greater pressure ratio than 1:1.


 
FYI


*GAG BITS*Return to the top of this page 







 These bits are usually jointed and offer similar action on the horse’s mouth to regular loose ring or egg butt snaffles. In addition they put pressure on the poll. A special cheek piece is used that slides through the holes in the rings of the bit. By pulling on the reins the rider pulls the cheek piece through the bit putting pressure on the poll. It is important to release rein pressure more quickly and completely than with regular snaffle bits to ensure that the cheek pieces return to normal and do not keep pressure on the mouth when not needed. Some riders use two reins using the regular rein when the horse is behaving normally and severe pressure is not required. A second rein is also a safety rein since gags are used in extreme cases and reins sometimes break. Care should be taken with the condition of the cheek pieces and use of these bits; excessive pressure can pull the bit up high into the mouth of the horse causing damage to the horse’s mouth. Gag bits are available in loose ring and egg butt designs. Some with links in the middle (French, Dr. Bristol, rollers etc.). the thickness of the mouth piece is usually from 10mm to 13mm. Most gags are solid mouth. Sizes available are from 5" to 5 3/4" in most designs. Pictured here is an egg butt gag # 1712.
***S.S. NR KRM RUB Fr. Rlr CPR Tw Cs *

*3 RING GAG*Return to the top of this page







 is also called a European elevator, or an American gag or an American elevator bit. Another name would be the continental gag bit. These bits operate similarly to a pelham without a curb. Some riders use two reins, allowing the one rein to act like a normal snaffle rein. Depending on the ring chosen to attach the lower rein, the poll pressure can be severe. These bits are frowned upon by some experts. They contend that there are other bits that perform the same functions better and more safely than these bits. These bits are also made as
*2 ring *and *4 ring *versions. The bit shown is normally called a 3 ring gag. (Some books call this bit a 4 ring European elevator bit, or a 4 ring gag). These bits are usually 12mm to 14mm thick and available in sizes 5" to 5 1/2". Some people use a slightly larger size on these since they usually have a loose ring at the end of the mouth piece. A larger size is needed if rubber bit guards are used. Pictured here is a 3-ring gag Happy mouth # 17373


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## wild_spot

I know what both of those bits are, and personally know people who use them, thanks.

The point is, BOTH apply more than a 1:1 pressure ratio = curb. I can find numerous pages on the internet and in books that describe a tom thumb curb bit as a snaffle - Doesn't make it any less false. Just because a bit doesn't look like a western curb, doesn't mean it isn't a type of curb. The very definition of a curb is simple - Applies a pressure ratio of more than 1:1, which both of those bits do.


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## charliBum

Ew would never use something with shanks and a broken mouth, thats asking for trouble, your plan sounds good however id leave out the Argentine snaffle


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## charliBum

Allison Finch said:


> UMMMM, not really.
> 
> Gag bits have leverage, but are not curbs.....
> Dutch jumper (ring) bits have leverage, but are not curbs.
> Elevator bits have leverage, but are not curbs.
> 
> These both use leverage to pull the crown piece of the bridle onto the poll nerve, not the jaw. Kinder than a curb, IMHO.
> 
> I don't like argentines because they have all the severity of both curb and snaffle (nutcracker action on jaw) but none of the kindness.


your correct, if the bit has poll pressure and a non moving (eg doesnt pull up in the mouth) then its a curb, ie a shank or pelham

however gags do pull up in the mouth the mouth piece sliiides. making it not a curb. like so


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## charliBum

oh and fyi curbs do move up in the mouth but not in the same way as a gag


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