# Trying western after 15 years of English



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Without knowing where you are it will be hard to suggest a trainer!

It is a good plan to have someone teach you, the whole thing feels a bit odd to start with riding without contact takes some getting used to for sure. Be prepared to get hooked, (and not only on the saddle horn as you dismount) I was an English rider for many years, then converted, it's great.


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

Well, I'm not quite good for giving tips on picking out trainers - as I don't have one I learn on my own. 
But I would look at some Parelli groundwork and Buck Brannaman techniques. Parelli I only use for groundwork because it is very good, it helps get better communication and bonds with your horse.
Buck Brannaman is good for everything else, hehe! He has great groundwork and warm-up riding tips.

This link has some great tips for learning more as well.
HorseQuest Instructional Videos - eXtension


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## Lonannuniel (Jun 13, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Without knowing where you are it will be hard to suggest a trainer!
> 
> It is a good plan to have someone teach you, the whole thing feels a bit odd to start with riding without contact takes some getting used to for sure. Be prepared to get hooked, (and not only on the saddle horn as you dismount) I was an English rider for many years, then converted, it's great.


I'm located in the Edmonton, Alberta area! Would need someone who can travel, as my barn is a bit of a drive away from the city. 

I am quite excited to be learning something completely new! I could probably do very basic stuff on my own, but I'll likely end up riding like a dressage rider in the wrong saddle without having more guidance, so I thought that if I was going to really be serious and learn about this area, it'd be best to find a trainer who can help along the way.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hows the weather up there?

Are you in this thread http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/horse-talk-canadians-256666/ you will get some locals helping out maybe.

:wink: Shhhh don't tell anyone but I have often heard it said that you can tell a person who started in English and has converted, we have nice seats.


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

hello from a fellow Edmontonian! 

i think your dressage background will really help you in the western world. you ride with a longer stirrup western than you do english, and previously learning to stretch your leg down and have your leg underneath you will be of big benefit.

other than looking and feeling a bit more relaxed, i honestly don't see much difference between english and western riding. i do both, have taken lessons in both, and to me the only big difference to me is the type of saddle you sit in, lol.

having said that, i've never worked cattle though. but i think having a strong seat, strong core muscles, and a strong leg (all aspects of a good dressage rider) are the most necessary parts to being able to stick a horse while he is cutting a cow from the herd or chasing after a stray steer.

i'd say get yourself out on the trail in a western saddle for a couple hours and you'll get the feeling of it by the time you are heading back to the barn 

or i might suggest taking a few lessons at a good western barn in the area. i'd try calling Dukes Ranch on 50th street just south of the city. they do western lessons there. take what you learn and transfer it back to you and your horse. may cost less than having a trainer come out?


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## EponaLynn (Jul 16, 2013)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> other than looking and feeling a bit more relaxed, i honestly don't see much difference between english and western riding. i do both, have taken lessons in both, and to me the only big difference to me is the type of saddle you sit in, lol.


Being a former english rider who switched to western, the thing that was so hard for me is hardly being able to feel the horse thorugh that huge saddle. With my short legs, english was easier (I used to show hunter over fences).

One thing EHG missed mentioning is the difference in the contact with the mouth and the reins. Generally speaking you ride on a very loose rein (there's no "on the bit"), and neck rein, but you still use your seat as you do in english.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I recommend this book:

Ride Smart: Improve Your Horsemanship Skills on the Ground and in the Saddle (Western Horseman Books): Craig Cameron: 9780911647662: Amazon.com: Books

You might want to read some of the articles on this website about western saddles & fit:

False "saddle fit rules" regarding the shoulder blades

There is no reason to switch to a western saddle & western saddle tree if one rides it 'English'. It can be done, but it will create an unbalanced saddle on the horse's back. Since the weight distribution system (the tree) is different, one's balance in the saddle should also change.

The norm in western riding is to drop the idea of 'contact' and headset. Ride with slack in the reins, and let the horse choose its head position. You can direct rein still if you wish, but the goal is to transition to using one hand. With a curb bit, moving your one hand up, back, left, right - without taking all the slack out of the reins - will communicate your goal to your horse...once trained.

As I've started riding in a western saddle this last month, after years of Australian or English saddles, I find it is more of a platform to do things from than a saddle to feel the horse. The impression I get is that I need to change my approach to balance in order to use the western saddle to its full advantage. One thing that surprised me is that my horse seems quite content with the extra weight and length of the western saddle. She turns around a pylon faster and with more freedom in her shoulders than when using the Australian-style saddle.

After a month or so of intermittent use (bad weather and other commitments), I find it to be very different than riding English, just in terms of balance. I had switched to a western approach with the reins a couple of years ago, but the change in saddle gives it a very different feel. I'm still not sure if I like it or not.


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

EponaLynn said:


> One thing EHG missed mentioning is the difference in the contact with the mouth and the reins. Generally speaking you ride on a very loose rein (there's no "on the bit"), and neck rein, but you still use your seat as you do in english.


i didn't mention the difference in contact/reins, etc because the OP said this:

"I don't want to do any showing, I'm really interested in the more 'practical' skills (for lack of a better description) such as those that would be useful should I ever work on a cattle ranch, or anything like that."

IMO the 'traditional' draped rein and lack of contact is more in the show ring than out on the range working cattle or just riding western for pleasure, from what i have seen, read and experienced. when you are doing practical/pleasure work with your horse you may have varying degrees of contact with the bit as opposed to looking picture perfect in the show ring.

and not all western riders ride their horse in a curb, so how the reins are handled can vary.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> i didn't mention the difference in contact/reins, etc because.


Golden Horse had already mentioned it :rofl::thumbsup:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bsms,
it's interesting that you should say that western riders are not concerned with "headset". they SHOULDNT be concerned with it, but my experience is that the term "headset" and concern with it voiced here is more often coming from Western riders than from English.

OP, since you are already an accomplished rider, if you want to look at a new approach, I would suggest buying *Buck Branaman's "Seven Clinics" video set*. it is very expensive, but gives a whole lot to think about. 

you can buy all seven sections, or some part there of. look to the website "Ecclectic Horseman" and they have the set or partial sets for sale.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

EdmontonHorseGal said:


> ...IMO the 'traditional' draped rein and lack of contact is more in the show ring than out on the range working cattle or just riding western for pleasure, from what i have seen, read and experienced...


That is very different from what I've seen. Outside of a show ring, I've never seen a western rider try to put a horse 'on the bit' or ride with contact. There are moments when all the slack is out of the reins, but that is extremely different from riding with a horse on the bit!

I'm not talking about the extremely draped reins seen in some shows, but something more like this photo from over 100 years ago:










Or this one from this summer:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ...they SHOULDNT be concerned with it, but my experience is that the term "headset" and concern with it voiced here is more often coming from Western riders than from English...


On a trail or a ranch, I've never heard of anyone worry about headset. In some of the arena sports/shows, you may be right. I don't show, and most of the riders I know are oriented to trail riding. I've yet to meet a western rider apart from the Internet who has used the word 'headset' in my hearing...but I might get an earful if I went to a show...:?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Maybe you should get out more?

It is certainly something that I have encountered over 3 countries now, both in real life and online. It isn't the same as as English headset, but picking up a gentle contact, the releasing when he sets his head right is a constant. As a western rider I want a horse to hold himself together, so I still drive the back end and contain the front, but instead of holding him together as an English horse, I let him find his own headset. He finds it because I keep setting it and rewarding success.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> ...but instead of holding him together as an English horse, I let him find his own headset...


If he finds it on his own, it isn't 'headset'. It is balance. Or perhaps it is where his head ends up when balancing and moving in a way you enjoy riding.

But in western riding, the goal is not a near vertical face breaking at the poll, because it all depends on what you are doing, and the horse gets to figure it out for himself. It is related to vision, since the horse has a fairly narrow field of view with binocular vision, and has to adjust its head according to what it wants to see well. Thus it is related to speed, since a horse moving fast needs to look carefully a further distance away than one moving slow.

The neck, likewise, moves as the horse chooses to achieve balance, or sometimes relaxation.

When I think of headset from a western perspective, I think of folks see-sawing on the reins to get a look desired in WP or reining. Or I think of the folks who have read a 'dressage for dummies' book and want to 'collect their horse's head' - which, of course, is abominable pseudo-dressage not related to real dressage teachings.

If Mia stretches out too much at a canter, I'll bump her reins, or maybe lift them a little and hold until she figures it out. Then she lifts her head slightly, maybe changes the angle of her head and shortens her stride. Then we are back on a loose rein, with her carrying her head anywhere she needs to for her satisfaction. I'm not asking for a 'headset', but a change of balance and stride. 

Someone competing in arena competitions in front of judges may have a different view and a different goal. My comment was for the bulk of western riders. I don't think the bulk of western riders are found in arenas. 

I believe my original statement remains accurate: "_The norm in western riding is to drop the idea of 'contact' and headset. Ride with slack in the reins, and let the horse choose its head position._"










I cannot speak to western riders in Canada, or how they ride. I'm in Arizona, and have friends who ranch in Utah. And if anything, I think the absence of 'headset' from their vocabulary means I hang out with folks I can be proud to know and ride with...

BTW - I still like this comment from the non-western rider George Morris. I still like a forward seat, but don't tell my wife - she bought me the used western saddle I'm using now as an early Christmas present.










In fairness, there is also a valid western tradition brought over from Spain via Mexico & California, which is the bridle horse. It uses a very different approach that is training intensive. The woman who did so much to help Mia is now taking a 4 year program to learn about it.


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## HeroMyOttb (Dec 28, 2009)

Good luck!! I have decided to transition from english to western. I rode english all my life and started riding western at my college and fell in love with it.

I'm even turning my Thoroughbred into a western mount!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

bsms said:


> If he finds it on his own, it isn't 'headset'. It is balance. Or perhaps it is where his head ends up when balancing and moving in a way you enjoy riding.


I'll bow to your many many years, 5 is it? of experience and extensive book knowledge, and bow out, leaving you to spread what you think you know and understand as gospel


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

My trainer always taught me to collect my horse up, and make him move nicely. I don't let him run around the arena with his head waving wildly in the air. And if his head pops up, I slightly bump on my reins and bring it back down, and then give a release once he brings it down, and then he pretty much just leaves it there. 
And I was always told, if you don't teach your horse collection, and a nice headset then they are more at risk for swayback later in life








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> I'll bow to your many many years, 5 is it? of experience and extensive book knowledge, and bow out, leaving you to spread what you think you know and understand as gospel


Amazing, aren't I! 5 years of riding, and I already figured out that "_The norm in western riding is to drop the idea of 'contact' and headset. Ride with slack in the reins, and let the horse choose its head position._"

What is even more amazing is that folks can ride for many more years and NOT notice what everyone around them is doing...:?

Oh, and GH...yes, I read books. It is amazing, but a fellow can actually LEARN from reading. You learn faster if you listen from others, including those who wrote books. It is a good habit.


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

bsms said:


> Amazing, aren't I! 5 years of riding, and I already figured out that "_The norm in western riding is to drop the idea of 'contact' and headset. Ride with slack in the reins, and let the horse choose its head position._"
> 
> What is even more amazing is that folks can ride for many more years and NOT notice what everyone around them is doing...:?
> .


In my area just because you ride western by no means, means that you drop the idea of a collect headset completely. We still want our horses to collect and carry themselves nicely. You don't learn everything about horses by reading books. Experience plays a big role in it as well, and I personally, would not let my horse run around with his head in the sky. High headedness is frowned upon around here, we want a soft, pretty and relaxed way of carrying their head, all while still collecting themselves (rounded back etc) when you allow a horse to be high headed, they hollow their backs out, makes their gaits choppier and leads to back problems later in life. You can easily achieve a collected horse with a nice headset on a loose draping rein. I wouldn't say at all that western riders ignore the idea of a headset and collection, when it is actually important for all riders.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> It is certainly something that I have encountered over 3 countries now, both in real life and online. It isn't the same as as English headset, but picking up a gentle contact, the releasing when he sets his head right is a constant. As a western rider I want a horse to hold himself together, so I still drive the back end and contain the front, but instead of holding him together as an English horse, I let him find his own headset. He finds it because I keep setting it and rewarding success.


Agreed!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I made the comment regarding headset being a more commonly heard western term based mostly on what I hear here! I hear it far more often from western riders than I do from english/dressage riders. they think they are all after the same thing; a horse that is soft and responsive to the rein. But, the focus and the approach to achieving that are a bit different.

we debate this whole thing of headset and contact all the time. One thing that I heard that really resonated with me, and it might have been a "Buck-ism", was that a horse that is soft on the rein is "available" to you. He is there if you want to ask him to do something, becuase he hasn't made up his mind and body to fight the bit/hand.

but, in either western or english, the rider that bops the horse's mouth repeatedly (either snapping, or see-sawing) to get him to give, and thinks that is the goal, is just shortening the front of the horse and making him fear and retreat from the bit. it is not the same thing as asking the horse to be soft to the bit and available in his body.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*From English to Western*

I wrote this a few years ago. It might help with the discussion

Quote:
ENGLISH to WESTERN​The pretty equine which occupies my stable is a 15H2, 7 yo, Irish Draught X Connemara Mare. DiDi is dapple gray, with a broad back and a powerful rump. She’s not that tall in the modern fashion but she is up to weight, and would make an ideal hunter: that is a chaser of foxes over uneven terrain. Trouble is she is Irish and as intelligent, strong minded and as crafty as they come. When up on her back, just think of what you are about to do and she has done it. She is light, sensitive and intuitive. And that quiet friendly demeanour in the stable yard is just a front - she knows what she wants out of this life and she makes sure that she gets it from her humans. The way to her heart is with food - she is always ready to eat. - just in case the grass stops growing. Don’t raise your voice to her and never use a whip on her. 

When up on her back the slightest movement of the hand, the leg or the seat will provoke a response in her. Turn your head to the right, drop your shoulder, twitch that under muscle of the right thigh and she’ll turn. Squeeze the leg just a fraction, hesitate a second and she’ll stop. Trouble is, if she wants to be, she’s skittish then she’ll come off all four feet and hop sideways by a yard before the rider even sees the hazard. If the wind blows, a dog barks, a car revs up then her ears will go up and the rider must be ready for a shy. If you tense up in anticipation, then she’ll sense the tension and start to worry about why the rider is concerned. If she does shy, it will be a sharp vicious, powerful whirl off her hind quarters around to the left. Oh, and I forgot, she hates flies. She’ll shake her head, bend her neck and vibrate her skin whenever a flies hums past but she won’t allow you to spray her with fly killer, she doesn’t like the smell.

*So just what would I get from buying her a Western saddle.* Well for a start I’d have to be careful with the fit - DiDi is close coupled. 
I wouldn’t need a horn because I can’t work a lariat, anyway there are no steers to round up. 
I don’t carry any gear when riding, so there is no purpose for any of the traditional laces or rings. 
A regular levered Western bit would too fierce for DiDi so I’d probably use a simple European snaffle affixed to a one eared bridle. 
I could use Western reins but would prefer to use English with a buckle. 
I always use a Western training halter, so there would be no change there. 
A Stetson does not provide enough protection for the head especially when riding in woodland, so, it would have to be a typical English lightweight riding hat. 
English johds are cut especially for riding with pads for the inside of the knee but I suppose one could wear jeans. 
I’d still wear under the shirt a broad elasticised belt to give a little protection to the lower spine and to support the lower back I’d always chose a padded, lightweight but waterproof riding jacket Western boots are fine but I never wear spurs of any pattern for any horse.

Mounting up would be easy. There would be no reason for a third party to hold the stirrup iron and I would not have to worry about tightening the girth. 
I would have to sort out the length of the stirrup leathers so as to ride longer legged than I would normally choose to do with English stirrup irons 

I‘d take up the reins with one hand and hold them high on a long loosely looped rein. There would be less contact with the mouth than I am used to and I’d only be using one hand to hold the two reins. The horse could stretch its head down long and low but she would have a little more freedom in the neck to move than I would normally allow 
She might wonder where my hands were because she is used to feeling them sensitively working the bit. She steadies herself off the bit even when not being ridden “rounded and on the bit“. 
She would expect my weight to be distributed evenly in the saddle and more forward towards her centre of gravity but the Western saddle might disperse my weight differently - perhaps further back. 
English stirrup irons are there to keep the feet still, Western stirrups are there to carry some of the rider’s weight.

It would be interesting to see how much of my thigh muscles she can feel through a blanket and a heavy saddle. Would I have to prod her more with my heels ? 
She can feel the weight of the reins, but will she neck rein without some tuition? 
How much back pressure on the reins will it take to slow her? Would she like being allowed off the bit? What would happen if I sit back in the saddle and lean back, will she shoot forwards as the broad skirt of the saddle digs into her back. 
We would have to re-establish a system of weight shift communication. It is all about subtlety really. 

I like riding DiDi English because she is so sensitive to my body language. Would I lose that close contact by riding Western? 
When mounted English, I can feel her soul through my thighs and legs. By watching her ears and the position of her head, I can read her mind. Will I have lost a element of communication with her by riding Western? 

She hasn’t been taught to do emergency stops though and if she were to get moving then stopping her might prove to be tricky. It is not good practice to let this mare think she is in charge. 

For her part, she might appreciate my 225lbs of body weight being spread more evenly over her back. She would certainly like the additional freedom given by the long loose reins which would allow her to move her head and she might take advantage. 

I might be able to sit into her slow jog but whether she will slow canter steadily without tending to speed up is another question. Anyway the canter is not a pace for tarmac surfaces. Normally to move at the speed of a slow canter, she would be working in extended trot on the tarmac lanes hereabouts. I wonder which pace we would come to use when riding the lanes and up and down the hills. The Trot is a very useful pace for roadwork.

Even to think about the concept has proved to be an interesting exercise. I think maybe I should try out one of the treeless saddles which are mostly cut to a Western pattern. 
You never know the trial might fool my Girl and give me the upper hand for a change. 

B G .


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Interesting thread! Subbing, as I am considering maybe giving a shot at western after a background very similar to the OP's (14 years of English, particularly H/J).


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, outside of HF, I've never heard a western rider say "headset". And when western riders say, "collection", I've never heard one use the same meaning the FEI does - sustained collection as a gait. That is why western riders will talk about getting a 3 year old horse to "collect" - because western riders use the term with a different meaning than other riders. 

In the dressage training scale, collection comes at the end of serious years of training. Western riders use the word for something they do in a few rides on a three year old. By the western definition, Mia collects just fine. By the dressage definition, she has never been collected for more than a couple of strides, and never will.

"_I personally, would not let my horse run around with his head in the sky. High headedness is frowned upon around here.._."

Well, it is frowned upon here in southern Arizona, too - but that does NOT mean we put the horses 'on the bit', ride with contact, spend time working on a headset, or teach genuine collection (think FEI). Heck, if you have a western saddle that fits, and you don't sit like a lump of coal, then it is pretty easy to have a horse with a relaxed, free moving back. 

When taking lessons, the instructor DID talk about having the horse's poll and neck RELAXED, or SOFT, but she never talked about headset - and someone pulling on the snaffle bits to get a headset would have been pulled off the horse. See-sawing on the horse's mouth, which is sometimes taught by western riders, would have also resulted in your being pulled off the horse. 

The goal in western riding is a responsive horse, but I have yet to meet a western rider who rides with their horse's head just in front of the vertical as a normal position. Horses need to MOVE their heads, both for balance and for good vision, and I've never met a western rider who doesn't appreciate that fact - but then, I don't hang around arenas and talk to people riding in shows.

I make no apologies for reading books, or for taking riding seriously enough to think and apply logic to my riding. I make no apologies for reading scientific papers that discuss the impact of different things, and how horses actually move.

People talk about a "rounded back", for example, but I've been unable to find any science that says a horse's back EVER rounds up.

"When I had the chance to talk with Dr. Hilary Clayton in January 2009 and asked her about how a horse's back shape changes under weight, her answer was a very quick and sure "It sags". So the idea of a horse "rounding up under the saddle" doesn't even seem to be a question in the minds of people who actually study biomechanics. They know it doesn't actually happen...

...What happens under weight? Horse’s backs sag, despite their trying to compensate with leg movement changes. 

How much? A measureable amount, but not massive. 

What about when asked to collect? We really don’t know, but that isn’t a constant state for very many horses for very long time periods."

http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/in...yup-riding-a-horse-does-make-his-back-extend/

Dr. Hilary Clayton: Dr. Hilary Clayton — College of Veterinary Medicine at Michigan State University

If anyone has any research that indicates a horse's back actually rounds UP when ridden collected, I'd love to see it. Every report I've been able to access off the Internet indicates the back sags, and the only question is how much. However, to a rider, a back that sags less may well FEEL rounded...but feeling and fact are not always the same.

If reading and thinking about things like that is wrong, then so be it.

What I find astonishing is that people do not want to read, or that they reject the science because their instructor told them XYZ, or because some website tells then the power of the horse's hind legs cannot travel through the neck if the neck isn't bent at the poll!

"_And I was always told, if you don't teach your horse collection, and a nice headset then they are more at risk for swayback later in life_"

You were told wrong. Collection is not defined as "not let my horse run around with his head in the sky". Nor do you need to teach a headset to prevent a horse from running around with their head in the sky! No horse LIKES to do that. They only do that due to improper use of bits, bad fitting saddles, or terrible riding.

You do not need to teach a horse where to put its head for normal riding, because the horse already knows how to use its head for balance and for optimum vision. Ride the back, not the head! If your horse has a free moving and relaxed back, then the head will be fine.

There are exceptions for specific sports such as dressage, but dressage is not western riding. And most of the dressage riders writing on HF seem to support the idea that you seek a specific movement from the horse, and the head follows - that you do NOT "collect the head"! I also gather people riding in shows may need the horse's head in some position to get points, but that has more to do with bad judging and bad horsemanship than anything else.

In this old picture of Mia & I, Mia is NOT collected. She is doing a good western jog, which is one of her favorite paces. Her back is relaxed. I remember when the picture was taken, and I was enjoying just how relaxed she was and how content. She isn't gazing at the sky, and she is free to move her head. That is the normal western riding I see on the trails around me. That is the normal western riding I saw when I was taking lessons, or at least the goal - a relaxed, free-moving, self-balanced, contented horse covering some ground efficiently. Not a "headset", or a "frame".


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ...we debate this whole thing of headset and contact all the time. One thing that I heard that really resonated with me, and it might have been a "Buck-ism", was that a horse that is soft on the rein is "available" to you. He is there if you want to ask him to do something, becuase he hasn't made up his mind and body to fight the bit/hand...


This describes the goal of western riding that I was taught, and what I see the western riders I know wanting - a responsive horse who is ready to do what you want. 

There are several ways of getting that. Western riding is no more the end all of riding than any other style. You can have that with a bridle horse, a Texas-style western horse, a dressage horse or a jumper. Or you can ride in any of those styles, and NOT have it. You can mix, and ride an English saddle with Texas style reins, or a western saddle with a dressage approach. It depends on the horse's training and the rider's responsiveness to the horse, not the tack or riding style. The horse's I've met who were not responsive were lesson horses who had been numbed by riders who didn't listen to their horse - so the horse shut down mentally.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

The horse in nature uses its neck to balance itself at the canter and gallop therefore to leave the horse on a loose rein allows the horse to better carry itself
and its rider. 

But the counter argument is that by leaving the horse with control of its neck and head, the rider loses control over the animal. In other words, the horse must be in harmony with the rider before it is allowed too much rein.

The one big problem for the dressage rider is that the horse must have developed the muscles of the topline and have minimal development of the under neck muscles, otherwise the horse will quickly become distressed if the nose is forced down into the ramener position (nose to the ground) by strapping. 

Native bred breeds, born with short necks cannot readily adopt the head carriage sought by dressage riders hence the predominance of the German breeds in dressage competition.

The argument that the horse's spine should curve upwards so better to carry the weight of the rider invokes discussion. Perhaps it is better for the heavy rider to choose to ride a bigger horse. 

There are many points for discussion in this topic. But in my humble opinion, it all comes down to 'horses for courses'. Race horses, polo ponies, eventers and show jumpers do not need to adopt the ramener posture in order to perform as is expected of them. Neither does a short Dales pony (a breed bred to carry lead}, need help to carry even the heavier rider. 

If I were thinking of rounding up steers or hacking out in the wide open ranges, then without a doubt I'd choose to let the horse have its head. However when negotiating the dangers of the community in Britain, I'd choose to keep the horse's head/mouth in light contact. You never know when you'll need the brakes.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

bsms said:


> Amazing, aren't I! 5 years of riding, and I already figured out that "_The norm in western riding is to drop the idea of 'contact' and headset. Ride with slack in the reins, and let the horse choose its head position._"
> 
> What is even more amazing is that folks can ride for many more years and NOT notice what everyone around them is doing...:?
> 
> Oh, and GH...yes, I read books. It is amazing, but a fellow can actually LEARN from reading. You learn faster if you listen from others, including those who wrote books. It is a good habit.



But coming on a forum and quoting huge passages from books does not make you the expert, your verbosity does not always further the argument in a meaningful way.

YES you can learn a lot from reading, but you simply cannot learn 'feel' from a book, you cannot learn timing from a book, same as you cannot learn it from this forum or any other. 

Getting your backside in a saddle, making mistakes, putting it right, finding out what doesn't work, and what does, these things are important. I find your vehement defence of your book learned opinions, and usual insistence of having the last word interesting.

People who are reading the thread with the hope of learning, those who wish to convert to western riding from English, DO IT, have a go, but find REAL people with REAL experience to help you get the best out of the experience. Take what you read on line with a pinch of salt, you know nothing of anyones experience, or the value they can add.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Collection done correctly does affect the back. it feels as if it raises. that is becuase the abdominal muscles contract. (by abdominal, I mean around the belly and those that cause the lift of hind leg and the "tuck" of the pelvis. I don't know the names of those muscles). the neck will also raise up, but from the base of the neck, because the muscles around the chest and shoulders engage, not because the neck is pulled up. 

it's akin to the way a dancer engages her core to achieve a better alignment, thus flattening her back , and angages the muscls around the shoulders and collarbone to lift the top of her head, making her taller and keeping her head in alignment over her spine. 

obviously, the analogy isnt' perfect, since we are bi-pedal upright and they are not. But, the same idea that by working the muscles to carry the skeletal frame, we are better balanced, and we reduce the wear and tear on the skeleton than happens when we do not have good musclular support, such as the person who slouches, or runs without good strong muscles around the knees.

So, all that is to say that when people say it's beneficial for the horse they are not saying that the spine really rounds, so much as it is more supported by muscle engagement, and thus counteracts the increased force of gravity from the rider's weight.

It takes more work from the horse to do this, more muscles work, in order for the bones to take less strain. the horse that is just jogging along with out engaging any of these muscles is taking the path of least resistance, as horses prefer to do. (actually, I do too!). it's cool. But, for example, if I allow Z to trot out as fast as he wants, without asking him to soften a bit in front , carry his own head up a bit, step under a bit more from behind, slow down and step a bit more softely, the ride that we experience is really jolting. you can hear the difference between him trotting out as he pleases, super heavy on the forehand and stiff in the back, and him tucking his hind under a little and absorbing some of the shock with his muscles, not just pounding into the ground without any support and rebound.

the difference is very obvious to the rider. for a horse as heavy as he is, carrying a rider as heavy as I am, I think it's important that he work harder to carry himself with this kind of "collection" and muscular engagement. though he'd rather not.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> But coming on a forum and quoting huge passages from books does not make you the expert, your verbosity does not always further the argument in a meaningful way...
> 
> ...Getting your backside in a saddle, making mistakes, putting it right, finding out what doesn't work, and what does, these things are important. I find your vehement defence of your book learned opinions, and usual insistence of having the last word interesting...


I quote authors to support what I have experienced. When I write about balance, it IS what I have experienced. And when I write that the western riders I know do NOT discuss headset, I am being factual. My opinions are not "book learned opinions". They are my experience, backed up by experts who write about THEIR experience.

When I say shifting your feet forward does certain things, and shifting them back does others, I am describing what I have done and how it affects me and my horses. That is in contrast to someone who parrots a 'shoulder-hip-heel' approach without ever trying any other approach.

When I describe the difference between how my horse responds to an English saddle vs a western one, I am making a comparison based on swapping out saddles in mid-ride, and seeing how the same thing on the same day affects things differently. Not a lot of people do that...

When I say a horse moves its head for balance, I am writing about what I've seen, backed by everyone who has ever studied it. When I say a horse's vision is affected by head position, I am stating what we have learned - a horse has a narrow area of binocular vision, and also a small section of the eye that has the right structure for fine resolution. Many people do not know this, although it explains a lot of things:

"_The horse also has a "visual streak", or an area within the retina, linear in shape, with a high concentration of ganglion cells (up to 6100 cells/sq mm in the visual streak compared to the 150 and 200 cells/sq mm in the peripheral area. Horses have better acuity when the objects they are looking at fall in this region. They therefore will tilt or raise their heads, to help place the objects within the area of the visual streak._"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_vision, based on: Harman AM, Moore S, Hoskins R, Keller P. Horse vision and the explanation of visual behaviour originally explained by the ‘ramp retina’. Equine Vet J 1999; 31(5):384–390.

These are worthwhile things to know about, and I do not apologize for quoting articles or books when discussing what I have also seen in my horses. It is not wrong to quote George Morris, or VS Littauer, or Harry Chamberlin on riding - and those are the only writers I have quoted at length in my annoying posts.

In a discussion of headset, some folks might want to read "The effect of the head and neck position on the equine athlete" - over 100 pages of information on it:

dspace.library.uu.nl/bitstream/handle/1874/280976/sleutjens.pdf?sequence=2

From the abstract: 

"_The head and neck positions were defined as follows: HNP1-Unrestrained (control), HNP2-Neck raised, bridge of nose around the vertical. HNP4-Neck lowered and considerably flexed, bridge of nose pointing towards the chest. HNP5-Neck raised and considerably extended, bridge of nose in front of the vertical. HNP7-Neck lowered and flexed, bridge of nose pointing towards the carpus. Seven base level trained dressage horses were accustomed to the different positions for at least 3 weeks, before the start of the study....Behavioural observations, blood and saliva cortisol concentrations and heart rate variability were measured as indicators of stress, which demonstrated more conflict behaviour in the extended positions (HNP2 and HNP5). This thesis significantly contributes to the understanding of the effect of different head and neck positions on the equine athlete._"


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I took some western lessons last year and found that the seat was barely any different to that used in dressage - actually less different to the seat and leg position used in jumping
These were horses that were taught to work in a collected frame and the actual contact (they were all in snaffles) was no different to the way it should be in an English horse (they should not be held in frame by a vice like grip) it was simply done on a longer rein so it was a case of learning how to hold those reins to ask for that contact - not a totally different sort of contact. The end result was no different
You can be a passenger drifting along on an English horse - that is not exclusive to western riders. In either discipline it all depends on what you want out of it and how much work you're prepared to put in
No one can understand or appreciate the difference unless they've experienced it first hand


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Well Jaydee, I started to colour the bits of your response to which I agreed - then suddenly I realised I agreed, pretty much, with all of what you had written.

BG


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"These were horses that were taught to work in a collected frame and the actual contact (they were all in snaffles) was no different to the way it should be in an English horse..."

Were those lessons outside an arena?

Modest collection works fine outside of the arena, but modest collection does NOT require a 'headset', nor does it require contact. If the rider shifts his balance to the rear, most horses will follow. If you spend time doing circles and turns and changes of direction, any horse will work better during those times with the rider's weight to the rear, just as they can move forward better when the rider's weight is more forward.

But that does not require a headset. It does not require "a collected frame". Arguably, all good riding rejects a 'frame' and insists on balance and movement, with the outward appearance following.

Nor does it require a horse to be 'on the bit'. Not per the FEI definition, and not even with a bit in its mouth. Lilly was a green-broke Arabian mare when I started riding her. She weighed around 775, so my 180 lbs plus saddle was a significant load for her - roughly 27% of her weight, and her with very little time under saddle. I also was riding her in a sidepull halter...and yes, she soon learned to adjust her balance without bit, headset or frame. It wass the practice of motion and balance that taught her what worked and what did not work - not a headset.

As for contact: I have long argued that the weight of the reins, particularly when amplified by the leverage of a shanked bit, forms its own sort of 'contact'. But it is NOT the same as the English form, since you use the weight of the reins and your hand position. When riding Mia in a snaffle, I use my little finger to adjust the pull. With a shanked bit, using one hand, I adjust my hand position and that signals the horse...but it has a very different feel to me than using 2 hands on a snaffle.

I would argue it is a better approach for a beginner, since it is harder to mess it up, and easier for an instructor to see what you are doing. And while quoting authors seems to be frowned upon, VS Littauer also argued later in life that a beginning rider should be taught with slack in the reins - which can also be done with a snaffle bit.

In some traditions, such as the California Vaquero style (bridle horse), that is then refined to form a very genuine sort of contact via a spade bit, with the end state a very collected horse - very similar to dressage.

However, my original contention remains. Few people train bridle horses. Few western riders train for collected gaits. Most train for what Littauer called "gathering" - a temporary shift in balance to achieve a short-term goal, or to prepare the horse for a sudden turn, a jump, or acceleration. That is a different sort of balance shift and requires a different level of strength compared to a collected gait, and thus western riders talk about teaching their 3 year old horse to collect in a month.

What I wrote in my first post on this thread remains true, at least in southern Arizona:

"_The norm in western riding is to drop the idea of 'contact' and headset. Ride with slack in the reins, and let the horse choose its head position. You can direct rein still if you wish, but the goal is to transition to using one hand. With a curb bit, moving your one hand up, back, left, right - without taking all the slack out of the reins - will communicate your goal to your horse...once trained._"

I know western riders who use snaffles, including my youngest daughter. But regardless of snaffle or curb, the norm where I live is to transition both horse and rider to one hand, slack in the reins, and a freely moving head that allows the horse to seek its own balance and to see whatever the horse thinks it needs to see. I've yet to see a western rider on a trail riding in a frame, or seeking a headset. The instructor I took lessons from, and another instructor my daughter took lessons from, wanted a relaxed, flexible neck and poll and jaw, but never used or taught to seek a headset. Apart from HF, I've never heard a western rider use the word "headset".

Maybe that means I hang out with inferior riders. I think it makes the folks I know better riders, because they are not trying to ride the head!

"_You can be a passenger drifting along on an English horse - that is not exclusive to western riders._"

You do not become "a passenger drifting along" if you reject contact and being on the bit. Darn it, if Mia can be responsive to me without contact or being on the bit, then it simply is not that hard! If you have not experienced a responsive, listening horse while riding one handed with slack in the reins, without seeking a headset, then come out to Arizona some time.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

_"As for contact: I have long argued that the weight of the reins, particularly when amplified by the leverage of a shanked bit, forms its own sort of 'contact'. But it is NOT the same as the English form, since you use the weight of the reins and your hand position. When riding Mia in a snaffle, I use my little finger to adjust the pull. With a shanked bit, using one hand, I adjust my hand position and that signals the horse...but it has a very different feel to me than using 2 hands on a snaffle."
_

the heaviness of the contact is entirely up to the horse. if the rider makes contact on the bit, either via a direct rein or via the lifted weight of a heavy rein on a shanked curb bit, the horse's willingness to respond to the signal is what sets how much contact needs to be used. if Mia goes will without much contact it's becuase she has learned to be soft and available to you the instant you lift the rein, so you have no need to go harder. (good on you for having that training). a horse that has not been trained to recognize the presignal of a raised rein will need more contact before he 'hears" the rider and recognizes and give to the contact. if the rider rewards the instant the horse gives, then you are building softness and responsiveness. you CAN let the hrose go on a long rein becuase he is available to you at the ligthtest touch. He will stop or turn without you needing to apply a lot of contact becuase he has set the reponse level very low. that's a soft, well trained horse.

you can ride on the same long , loose rein on a horse that does not recognize contact or know what to do with it, and you will have to apply a LOT for the horse to give to it, like when stopping or turning. that horse's response level is really high. riding him on a long rein will not teach him to respect the bit and be soft and available. He can, however, be taught to be that way, but it might mean you have to put on some REAL contact at first, a lot stronger.

see, the horse sets the amount of contact that is needed, with training, he can learn to require very little. but it's not the same as a horse running on a very loose rein that when the rider picks up the contact, does not know what that means.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Training is important, and I'm sure the feel is different for a horse as well. One of the many mistakes I've made with Mia was trying for contact, but not being quick enough to give her release. My hands were light, in terms of lbs of pressure, but they were not responsive to her. Since she didn't get the release at the right time, even if the pressures involved were small, she would become frustrated and start up with what I now realize are classic bit evasions - everything from nose at chest to rooting. My error, her frustration.

When we switched to curb and using the weight of the rein, she sometimes seemed lost. She stopped well, but it took her a while to realize the reins would stay loose unless I needed something specific from her. If I wanted her to 'collect', I might bump the reins briefly if she tried to root around, but otherwise I would shift my weight back and wait for her to follow...or maybe do some turns to 'force' her weight back.

I'm not saying it is wrong to ride with contact, English style. My screwing it up does not mean others screw it up, and far too many great riders use contact to good effect for me to suggest it is wrong. But the Texas style of western riding kept one hand free to work a rope, and it would be darn tough to ride with contact and one-handed, particularly if you were doing something like cutting cattle, or even moving tough cattle.

So the western approach was to use slack reins, sometimes amplified by leverage. One aspect I've seen but still do not use is from using one hand with split reins. At least when the splits hang down each side, moving the hand also slides the rein against the horse's shoulder. When I do it, Mia responds much faster to the neck rein input, so apparently that feel is its own cue to her. I normally ride with a single loop rein, but eventually will switch to split reins because she responds better with leather split reins. 

Western riding is rooted in ranch work and rough country. It is also rooted in the rider having more to do that just ride the horse, so it adapted to a style where the rider pays less attention to the horse and where the horse assumes responsibility for keeping its footing and avoiding gopher holes, cactus, etc.

The guy in the picture owned Trooper's sire and dam, although the breeding was unintentional. Trooper spent his early years as a ranch horse. He didn't work the land in this picture because my friend's lease to run sheep and cattle there expired before Trooper was born - but they still run cattle to the south. To understand western riding, it helps to appreciate what the west can be like. They used to run sheep and cattle thru the bottom land in the canyon:










An English trained horse can learn western, and vice-versa. Riders can learn different styles, too. But it doesn't seem radical to me to say they ARE different, and different for good reason.

I'm trying to adjust to using a western saddle. I primarily rode English and Australian designs. Maybe it is just MY rump, but they sure feel very different to me. If Mia didn't move better in a western saddle, I wouldn't switch. But she does, so I am...and they sure do not feel interchangeable to me! The weight distribution, the loss of feel of her back, the loss of contact between my calves and my horse - it all feels weird to me. But I honestly do not see the point of changing tack if one doesn't also change one's approach to match the capability and history of the tack. I may love a forward seat, but I need to make some big changes in how I ride to get good use out of a western saddle.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

there are folks in Australia that run cattle in country pretty darn near as rough, and do it in snaffles and Aussie saddles.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I took some western lessons last year and found that the seat was barely any different to that used in dressage - actually less different to the seat and leg position used in jumping
> These were horses that were taught to work in a collected frame and the actual contact (they were all in snaffles) was no different to the way it should be in an English horse (they should not be held in frame by a vice like grip) it was simply done on a longer rein so it was a case of learning how to hold those reins to ask for that contact - not a totally different sort of contact. The end result was no different
> You can be a passenger drifting along on an English horse - that is not exclusive to western riders. In either discipline it all depends on what you want out of it and how much work you're prepared to put in
> *No one can understand or appreciate the difference unless they've experienced it first hand*


Quite, thank you for being concise and sharing your personal EXPERIENCE, can't beat actual experience.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

We experienced riders should be training our horses to fulfil the roles in our lives, which we have in mind for both the rider and the horse.

In the UK, my mare was acquired to carry me out into the community and the countryside. The horse was to be trained to ignore the noises of both vehicles and people. At such times, when coming upon something strange, the horse would seek reassurance, which was to be given by the rider's voice, seat, calves and the hands through the bit. 

I felt it to be counter productive to ride my horse in a full rounded outline since that would distress her since she was at the beginning of her time with me, she was not fully trained and muscled to adopt the full rounded pose for extended periods. And if I am honest, neither was I, as the rider, fit to adopt the dressage pose. 

I usually rode her into the community with two hands and a very light contact. Keeping horse and rider in a relaxed mode was always the aim. When it was necessary to negotiate a possible obstacle - such as for example meeting along the track a pedestrian with a dog, then I would shorten the reins so as to inform my horse not to be worried. As my hands would already be in contact, only the lightest of aid need be given to the horse - perhaps as little as a tightening of the fingers on the reins.

However, when DiDi was training for competitive dressage, where a full rounded outline was called for, I reduced significantly my own riding of her, since the dressage trainer always rode in a rounded outline. At that stage of her training, DiDi might have become confused by the two styles of riding: dressage or hacking. (Unbeknown to me at the time, there were other undiscovered health issues which were affecting DiDi's moods).

Generally speaking, the narrow single track width lanes of rural England are unsuitable for riding on a loose one handed contact. Also, if a horse gets used to riding on a light two handed contact, then mostly it will seek out contact on both reins. 

Again I suggest the saying: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"

B G


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> there are folks in Australia that run cattle in country pretty darn near as rough, and do it in snaffles and Aussie saddles.


Yes, but they also don't rope their cattle, IIRC. It tends to look like this:








​ 







​ 
I love Australian saddles - at least the style, I don't have the money for a real one - and I love the position. I'm not quite as thrilled with the use of reins..but in fairness, the amount of time actually spent chasing a cow that hard & close is pretty small. Pictures of cowboys in a roping competition wouldn't look much nicer. But I'd be curious if Australians, riding on a ranch, seek a headset or ride around in a 'frame'. I doubt it, but I don't live in Australia and only visited it once. The guys campdrafting above obviously are not seeking a headset!

In Arizona and Utah, outside of an arena, I haven't seen anyone riding western with a headset. I also have not heard a western rider, outside of the Internet, say, "headset". And in making my own switch from Australian saddles to western, I've noticed it does does some things I like, and others I do not.

I've never said riding with contact is wrong. I've never said putting a horse on the bit is wrong. My daughter rides western, and she uses snaffles. My western riding lessons used snaffles - but not a headset! I've merely said a headset is not part of the non-bridle western tradition, and it is ill suited for riding rough country. As an Australian wrote in 1890:

_Through the stringybarks and saplings, on the rough and broken ground,
Down the hillside at a racing pace he went;
And he never drew the bridle till he landed safe and sound,
At the bottom of that terrible descent.
_​ 
If someone wants to ride western, I recommend riding western, and not riding English in Western tack. When I ride 'English' as shown below, I do not pretend I'm really riding English:








​ 
It isn't evil, but neither is it true English riding...:wink:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms;4398049
Were those lessons outside an arena?
You do not become "a passenger drifting along" if you reject contact and being on the bit.[/QUOTE said:


> I really don't know what you mean by your first question - it really isn't possible to give effective lessons to someone outside of an arena. Teaching requires the trainer to be able to stand and watch the student
> The horses they use are mostly working ranch horses, some also compete in Western Dressage and some in Horse Agility/Trail Riding competitions
> If you have no contact with your horses mouth at any given time (unless its trained to work completely off your legs, including being able to spur stop) then you are just a passenger. If the horse suddenly spooks then you're reliant on either jabbing it in the mouth or it understanding a one rein stop to restrain it quickly
> It is possible to ride a horse on a long rein and still have it 'on the bit'
> ...


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## sheenanaginz (Jun 21, 2013)

I also share the same interest as you. I have ridden english my whole life. Mostly jumping and eventing and lots of trail riding. I really want to learn western riding also. The closest i have gotten is borrowing a friends western saddle and playing around in the arena. Although i did go to a fun show and compete in a barrel racing competition while using an english saddle. First time ever and got 4th place. Let me know how it goes and if you like it! I would definitely be interested in taking some western lessons!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I really don't know what you mean by your first question - it really isn't possible to give effective lessons to someone outside of an arena. Teaching requires the trainer to be able to stand and watch the student
> The horses they use are mostly working ranch horses, some also compete in Western Dressage and some in Horse Agility/Trail Riding competitions
> If you have no contact with your horses mouth at any given time (unless its trained to work completely off your legs, including being able to spur stop) then you are just a passenger. If the horse suddenly spooks then you're reliant on either jabbing it in the mouth or it understanding a one rein stop to restrain it quickly
> It is possible to ride a horse on a long rein and still have it 'on the bit'
> ...


Amen to that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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