# 16hh Ardennes mare x 15.2hh Grulla paint QH Stallion



## emmasacha (Oct 26, 2008)

We have chosen the stallion to put to our 16hh 11 year old Ardennes mare. She has had 2 foals previously, one to a friesian stallion and one to a welsh sec D. She did not have these foals with us but I have photos of the friesian cross.

The stallion we have chosen is Kiowas Mr Speckles. He is a 15.2 paint QH stallion with a base colour of grulla. He is guaranteed to throw a coloured foal from any mare. 

Below are pics of our mare, the stallion and also her friesian foal and a few of Speckles offspring.

Our Mare Sienne van de Sonneschiede (Moomin)









Speckles









Moomins Friesian x foal Violet

















Some of Speckles' foals


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## OliviaMyee (Jul 31, 2012)

all the horses look so beautiful.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

what are you hoping to do with this foal?? what sort of horse are you trying to get?

Sorry but I realy dont get it any reason other than colour to be breeding this mare?


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## emmasacha (Oct 26, 2008)

moomin is already used for hacking. We love her build and we love coloured horses. We want something a little finer and think whatever would come out of her will be beautiful.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry but The stallion is nothing special at all and If he were mine he would be loosing his crown jewels.

The UK horse market is flooded, Breeding is very dangerous (I have friends who own studs and they unfortunatly lose mares, normaly in horrific circumstances and it is rare for the foal to survive if the mare dies). Colour is a poor reason to breed a mare. 

A good way to breed a mare is to decide on what type you want, so in your case lighter weight, what you want the horse to do (presumably hack out), analyse her conformation, weaknesses strengths etc. Choose a stallion that compliments her, has strengths where her weakness are etc. 
For the foal to stay sound and have a potential future you should be aiming to improve on your mares conformation
If you desperatly want a coloured horse then there are plenty of far far better homozygous coloured stallions to choose from. I am happy to point you in thier direction if you want.
It is far far cheaper to buy a foal already on the floor, far less potential for heartbreak as well.

Draft crosses and QH's are realy not that popular in the UK, and if god forbid anything happen to you then you need to concider the foals future, which with that cross is likely to be straight onto a meat wagon.


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## emmasacha (Oct 26, 2008)

First of all we are not just breeding for colour. Both our mare and the stallion have amazing placid natures, and are extremely healthy well bred horses. I would never breed to a stallion purely for colour. 
I know it is cheaper to buy a foal but the whole point is that we want a foal out of Moomin because of the horse that she is. As for saying that drafts x qh aren't that popular in the UK…there aren't many QH in the uk let alone crosses. I don't think it's due to people not liking them they just aren't easy to find here. It is irrelevant anyway as we have absolutely no intention of selling the foal. 
Saying that the stallion is nothing special at all from one photo is incredible. We have gone to meet him and he's amazing. 
I have read your profile (faye) and it seems you have been blocked and reported alot for being offensive in threads. 

At the end of the day we are breeding 2 great horses and we have had the intelligence to actually think about the foal they will produce. They will make a good weight and height horse for what we do, we don't compete or show, we are pleasure riders. We have considered using other stallions and are very happy with the one we have found.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I've not judged him on one photo, I googled him and went to his stud page. He is camped under behind, goose rumped, upright in his shoulder and back at the knee. Non of which make for a horse that will be comfortable to ride.

It is of course your perogative to breed your mare however there are plenty of mediocre horses out there needing homes. There is no need to breed anouther.

I have also looked at your profile and previous thread and you seem novicey to me so it would be remiss of me not to point out the dangers of breeding foals. (you must have read the warning before posting this!)
I was blocked by one member who took passive agressive swipes at anything not a draft horse and couldnt face being told her information was incorrect (and it wasnt just me telling her either)

Breeding is not an exact science, you put a heavy horse to a light horse and you may not get something in between, you may get something as light as the QH or as heavy as the draft. You can put a 14hh pony to a 15hh horse and get a 17hh monsster of a horse (seen it before). What happens if it tops out at 13hh (also seen that before) or ends up with legs like a show pony? what happens to the foal if god forbid you have an accident in a car and are unable to care for them or something goes wrong financially, it can happen to the best of people so when breeding you should ALWAYS concider the future prospects of the horse should something happen to you.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm with Faye here on this one. :? This is an extremely odd pairing and does come across as color breeding at it's finest. The stallion and mare don't complement each other. You have just as good of a chance of ending up with a frakenfoal as you do of getting anything that is decent. Not a risk I would be willing to take.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

What a cute picture:


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ya I dont get it. I actually like their other paint stallion more, the bay. But your horse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

wells, im gonna go ahead and say CONGRATS!! i hope all goes well for mare and baby  

it seems the stud throws correct and colorful foals, even if he is a little camped under. and your mare is beautiful. i love that heavy build and she passed all those good looks to her filly.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

I don't recall the OP asking anyone's opinions on her choice of breedings. Grow up people.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

PurpleMonkeyWrench said:


> I don't recall the OP asking anyone's opinions on her choice of breedings. Grow up people.


Rude much? 

The OP had to agree to the following to make this thread - 


> Please note that in many cases, breeding a horse is a controversial topic. Many feel that, with the number of horses going to slaughter and the economy in the state it is, breeding unregistered, unproven horses, who's foals would be without inherent value and would therefore have great difficulty finding new homes if necessary, is irresponsible.
> 
> If the horse you would like to discuss breeding has any specific accolades (awards, pedigree, etc.), please share them at the outset so that others understand that the foal in question has decent prospects and can reply accordingly.
> 
> ...


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

My bad I'm not a horse forum nazi, but for people to be saying and I quote "I like the stallion, but your mare..." is really pretty rude.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Ahhh. I didn't see that post, I took it as you were referring to Faye and myself.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Ahhh. I didn't see that post, I took it as you were referring to Faye and myself.


Just seemed rude to me. I understand constructive criticism, but that was definitely not constructive.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No it wasn't.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

OP, your mare is very cute. And while I can completely agree your plan to breed her & keep the baby for yourselves is a valid reason (sorry faye, but something could happen to any of us at any time, does that mean none of us should get a horse? But I completely, 100% agree with the poor excuse of breeding a mare just to breed a mare).

Anyway OP, I can see why you like that stud and not just for his color. BUT, what about finding one similiar that has stronger conformation to compliment your mare? There are quite a few QH or Paint studs that not only would compliment her confo, but that have just as desirable personality as the one you are looking at. That way you kill 2 birds with 1 stone, you get the baby that you want and also get one that may more desirable in the resale market should you ever need to find it a new home?

Not bashing you in any way, shape, or form. I think your reason for breeding your mare is a valid one (you're not doing it to make money), but just wondering if you've looked at other possibilities.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

PurpleMonkeyWrench said:


> I don't recall the OP asking anyone's opinions on her choice of breedings. *Grow up people.*


Rude, petty and completely unnecessary. This could have been worded a thousand other ways. Even an ounce of tact will take you far in life....

That being said, I'm no expert, but even I'm wondering why this pairing? It seems like there are many people in the US at least who bred their horses because they love their particular horse, and she's awesome...I wonder how many of those unspectacular babies have no where to go now?

I THINK that if someone is choosing to breed, this should be something that should be considered. I always hear people saying, "my cousin/aunt/uncle/sister will take Precious in if something happens to me"....but I'd submit that given how fallible people are, it may be better to have more than one "back up plan". And if you can't ....maybe it's better not to breed something that won't be desirable to others.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Busy - the OP is across the pond in the UK and I don't believe that there are as many APHA or AQHA type studs available there like there is in the US.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Busy - the OP is across the pond in the UK and I don't believe that there are as many APHA or AQHA type studs available there like there is in the US.


Gotcha, missed that part.

But what about other breeds more available in that area? QH/APHA tend to be chunky monkeys especially when bred to larger boned breeds. Even the smaller ones, have the chunky monkey background somewhere. (Psst, I love me my chunky monkey, lol).

I know of 2 drafts that were bred to QH's, everyone had pretty good conformation (who's perfect right?). Both babies were cute, good conformation, great personality, etc. BUT they ended being SHORT chunkers, with the draft movements.

So OP, what are your thoughts about breeding to a stud that is actually supposed to be finer boned (arab, TB, morgan, etc, etc)?


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

what an interesting looking mare!


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

The mare is very nice, seems to be well built, and if she is all you say she is ability-wise and personality-wise, then she would be a good candidate as a broody if you are willing to accept the very real risks. BUT that stallion has no business being a stallion, and the people standing him at stud should be ashamed, as it is very very obvious that they are marketing him purely for his color aspect and not taking his poor conformation into account AT ALL. If you are going for a lighter foal, he will likely not give it to you, as he is not exactly light himself. Quarter horses aren't known for being fine-boned. Surely you can find a more suitable stud with better conformation. Color should be the final criteria after you've nailed all the important things down.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I LOVE the mare, she is all kinds of cute, good solid, reliable looking, how does she ride? Is she comfortable at all of her paces? I had a big draft cross mare here who was just rocking chair smooth in every gait, so loved riding her.

As to breeding her, well as everyone else says, think long and hard about it, I totally 100% understand wanting to have a little bit of your mare, just remember you are risking her life in that pursuit. Maybe it's just me, I had a small registered breeding herd here, but it was when I was waiting for my heart mare to foal, I decided to quit. The worry that I had over that mare and the thought of losing her made me seriously question breeding anything.

I went out and bought a daughter of hers that was already on the ground, so now I have 2 of her daughters, one bred and one purchased and I love them both, neither of them are like their mother, I don't feel like they are a bit of her, they are individuals in their own right.

Will I breed again, maybe, I wont rule it in or out, but when and if I do it will be breeding like with like. I have yet another mare, who is to fine, I would love to have her, only heavier, and for a millisecond thought about crossing her with a heavier stud, LOL then I remembered the worry and the cost and the risk and decided against it. The odds of winning that particular lottery are slim, so no way that one is happening.

You say the foal will stay with you for ever, sorry you can't promise that.

You want a lighter foal, can't promise that, as other have said you could get frankenhorse.

IF you are dead set on breeding her, then think about what you really want as an end result, and think about marketability, and then choose a stud for all the right reasons.

Good luck.


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## emmasacha (Oct 26, 2008)

Ok so... we have looked at lots of other stallions, we were looking for a stallion that would give us a foal that was lighter than moomin (our mare) but still cobby. We would not put her to a thoroughbred as personally we don't much like the breed. Hadn't really considered an arab as they are a bit too fine and there aren't many morgans about in the uk. 
We are not doing this to get a show horse. There may be stallions out there with more perfect conformation but in our opinion both horses have good conf and moomin in particular is very well bred for her breed. She was imported from belgium as a youngster. To be honest you never know what you are going to get and there are always going to be what ifs. In spite of their colouring both horses have amazing temperaments and characters. Neither has a nasty bone in their body. Between myself and my partner we ride horses from 13hh upwards me being 5ft 2 and him being 6ft and lightly built. 
We don't want to breed for the sake of breeding, we wouldn't go through the risk of pregnancy if we didn't really want a foal from our mare. We have no intention of selling the foal regardless of size or colour. We would never rely on relatives or friends to take on a horse. As for saying what if we have a car accident, by that logic no one should own any animal.
I wasn't trying to initiate a heated debate lol, just wanted to share some pics and interested to hear what people think.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Something I would suggest you look at is what this stallion has produced with mares like yours. What kinds of work are the sire's offspring good at? What kind of dispositions do his foals have? With no idea of what they look like you are in a blindfolded gamble of what the cross of very different breeds could produce. The best breeding is like to like, type to type and building on conformation faults of sire and dam. When cross breeding, it is a great unknown of what you will end up with unless it is done very carefully by experienced breeders. You could have dumb luck and get what you want in body build and mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

emmasacha said:


> I wasn't trying to initiate a heated debate lol, just wanted to share some pics and interested to hear what people think.


:rofl::rofl: Wrong section of wrong forum to avoid a heated debate I'm afraid, it is always a passionate subject.

While I am not at all sure that a TB or an Arab would cross well on her, there are good reasons to consider it, they are used a lot to lighten heavier breeds for a reason, the odds of a good outcome are better than with other breeds. 

A good strong TB hunter chaser type would be my first place to look for her.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Really stupid question, but is AI a possibility?? Like if you found one not in the UK, that would be a good match. I would think semen could be shipped.

Just a random thought.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> :rofl::rofl: Wrong section of wrong forum to avoid a heated debate I'm afraid, it is always a passionate subject.
> 
> While I am not at all sure that a TB or an Arab would cross well on her, there are good reasons to consider it, they are used a lot to lighten heavier breeds for a reason, the odds of a good outcome are better than with other breeds.
> 
> A good strong TB hunter chaser type would be my first place to look for her.


I was just tossing out the finer boned breeds that I could think of off the top of my head. Thinking about it now, an arab probably wouldn't be the best looking, lol.

Hmmm, wheels are turning now.....:think:


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

... but I do have to say, though I'm not an expert by any means, the stallion is not one that I would look twice at except for his nice colour. I REALLY like her Fresian cross foal... but am curious to see how this baby turns out. I can't talk because I'm also going to be breeding mare/stallion combination this spring that some people on here got upset about (she is a grade), but OP - just consider all options and remember that there is some VERY good advice on here. This forum helped me choose a stallion for my mare... again, she IS grade and that upset some people, but I did learn from the discussions and feel I made one of the best choices I could


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Like the others, I would not breed to that stallion. He seems to throw that atrocious hind end to every foal pictured. Being goose rumped and camped under like that, the resulting baby would NOT hold up to extensive trail riding, which is what you're looking to do. I would find a stud with good, solid legs that can carry someone for miles. Your mare is adorable, by the way. I love her name. :lol:


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

I think she would cross up amazingly with a TB stud, have you considered that? It would lighten the foal up without the chunk and shortness that QH/Draft seem to end up with. I've seen several draft/TB crosses who were pretty incredible.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

busysmurf said:


> OP, your mare is very cute. And while I can completely agree your plan to breed her & keep the baby for yourselves is a valid reason (sorry faye, but something could happen to any of us at any time, does that mean none of us should get a horse? But I completely, 100% agree with the poor excuse of breeding a mare just to breed a mare).


No it doesnt mean that non of us should get a horse, it means that any horse that you have responsibility for you have duty of care to ensure that should anything happen to you the horses future is as assured as possible. That goes doubly so if you are going to bring a new horse into the world.

For my old lads that means that should anything happen to me my will states that they are to be PTS in the field at home and burried there. For my young lad he is now reschooled into a useful member of equine society and has the conformation to be useful at anything you care to try him at, he will never be a novice ride but he is talented enough that a pro would snap him up in an instant!

OP whilst your mare is ok the stallion is a conformational trainwreck and i'm suprised he is still sound.

How about something like winchester D?
WWW.SHELLEYWHEELER.COM - WINCHESTER D

or Incandesent
Incandescent Flame - Stud Card. Stallions Online. Stallions at stud.

or Greenvale audacity
Greenvale Audacity - Stud Card. Stallions Online. Stallions at stud.

or something like these gorgeous boys
SPRINGHILL`S BALLY SENSATION - Stud Card. Stallions Online. Stallions at stud.
CASSIUS - Stud Card. Stallions Online. Stallions at stud.

There are litteraly hundreds of beautifuly conformed stallions with smaller stud fees than your original one a lot of them are coloured as well!

Home. Stallions Online. Stallions at stud. is your friend


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Oh! Greenvale Audacity is one handsome fellow!


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

holy, Incandescent is 15.hh even! what a beautiful horse


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Give me some Incandescent here, LOVE him


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## krazygirl1 (Apr 2, 2013)

I love my quarters and would never give them up. But I will admit to drooling over Winchester D a bit. Cassius is a nice looking little guy too. What is a native horse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

I must say I think she could cross beautifully with a good TB stallion.
May I ask OP, what it is you don't like about the breed?

If it is their tendency to be flighty, I must say I think you have the wrong ideas and experiences of them. Perhaps look at some of the sporthorse bred TBs


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

OP, I looked at the stallion's pedigree that you want to breed to. Commonly paints and even quarter horses have a bit of thoroughbred breeding in their lines. I found something you would definitely want to check out before ever considering breeding to him. He has the quarter horse stallion Impressive in his pedigree, so you better find out if this stallion you like so much carries HYPP. If he carries it, he may or may not show signs of the genetic disease but could pass it on to foals and they could be ticking time bombs for seizures and a short life.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I've been debating whether to join in here or not, because I don't want to make you feel hurt or pressured, OP... But in the end, I'm not really seeing much to like about that stallion either. What would worry me is if the foal got his dam's bulk and, say, his dad's legs... with the conformation faults of the stallion, I'd be worried that the foal might have issues with the bulk that your mare seems to put on her foals. She's lovely, but a big, big mare, who looks to pass that on, and that means that conformation is doubly important. Especially when crossing with a quarter horse.
I really, really, REALLY like your mare, and I feel like you could find a better stallion for her. She is such a lovely, compact, sturdy looking horse, I think she could produce a fantastic foal that is lighter like you want but also very high quality... I guess, basically, what I'm trying to say is that I think that the stallion is just not up to par with her.
Of course, this is all just my opinion. Don't feel like I'm attacking you or forcing my thoughts onto you, in the end, it's your mare and your choice. But I honestly think that you could find another, better stallion for such a lovely mare who has just as nice a personality/ temperament and much better conformation... Even if the foal is just your trail horse and companion for the rest of its life, why not aim for as much quality as possible?
I don't want to sound rude with my opinion. These are just my thoughts, and I hope you don't mind my sharing them.


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

yikes, Sunny! 
OP - please read into the disease before making your decision

either way, I think you have a very cool mare and I hope you make a great decision on who to breed her to


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

My only question is since this mare is so well bred and from a rare breed, correct me if I am wrong, shouldnt she be used to produce pure breds?
OP she is your mare you decide who to breed her to.
What you do with the foal is your business so I wish you the best of luck.
If you are comfortable with the cross then breed her to the stallion. Shalom


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

OP, your mare is absolutely stunning! If I were in your shoes I would look into breeding for a purebred baby, I think it would HUGELY increase your chances of being able to sell the foal should you be unable to keep it (you cannot be one hundred percent certain that you will), not to mention the breed itself is just absolutely beautiful. I'm a bit in awe. :lol:


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

The stallion is definitely nothing special and not something I would be interested in. He is not going to complement your mare either. They both have weak backends. His underpinnings are weak and they must be the strongest part of a draft. I agree that given the limited genetics out there of Ardennais, she is more valuable raising purebred foals than any crossbred. A purebred however does not meet your needs as far as a riding mount. A cross on a TB or arab is not going to diminish the amount of bone substantially and is going to look more like a refined Ardennais than anything else. Remember that the Percheron got their fine heads and beautiful necks from the Arab. The stallion you look for this mare needs to have a great hip and neck. I know you don't ride a neck but it is important in how they carry themselves and where their center of balance is. It has a huge impact on the quality of your ride.

Violet is a pretty nice cross. She has better confirmation for a rider but still maintains the look of the Ardennais. She has enough bone and foot underneath her to support her size. How was her sire built? I'd want another one of her first.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

In the nicest way possible, your mare is too nice to insult with such a mediocre stallion. I understand temperament is important, but based on the few links posted alone, I think you could easily find something nicer with just as good of a temperament if you look a little harder. As the owner of an Arab mare who deals with chronic tendon problems due to her poorly built hooves and angles, temperament will mean nothing if the foal can't hold up for even basic riding. 

I know breeding is a crapshoot, but this stallion consistently passes on his faults and weaknesses so why chance it? Give the foal a fighting chance by breeding your beautiful quality mare to a stallion more deserving of sharing herunique genetics!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Emmasacha, I hope you have taken everything told you here, in the spirit in which it was meant. I'm sure you have evaluated your mare carefully, as to her strong and weak points. The stallion you have chosen is definitely not the correct stallion for her. You will be doubling up on some conformation problems. This, plus it is obvious that he passes along his weak points.

Faye has given you some excellent stallions to consider. If none of those appeal to you, there are plenty more in the UK. I really think you should rethink your choice. Hopefully, you have not yet booked to the stallion you showed.

If it were me, I'd consider breeding your mare to another of her breed, but I do understand your wishing for something a little more refined. So with that in mind, please do consider a more appropriate stud for your girl. I think you'll be glad you did in the end.

Lizzie


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