# What Color is Kal?



## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

Ello! This is lovely little Kal, born July 9th, 2012. He and his dam are owned by my BO. He had to be pulled from maiden mare, MJ. He is presumed to have been a 'dummy foal' as in he may have been deprived of oxygen as he struggled through the birth canal before he was promptly pulled. Now, he is fuzzy as a little bear and spunky.

This is his dam and him, any ideas on what colors they are? I have been assuming that they are both grey, as MJ was a sorrel. I am useless at colors and genetics unfortunately. His sire was a sorrel.






















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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Dam is a red based varnish roan and foal is a red base with blanket over the hips.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Both Dam & foal look to be Appaloosas.


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

Mare can be but isn't registered AQHA, and the sire is registered AQHA.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What is the sire's name? What about the dam's parents? 

Both of them are definitely showing appaloosa colouring, but that isn't a colour completely restricted to the Appaloosa breed.


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Appaloosa genes in Quarter horses are rare but not unheard of. Check out Reminic in Spots. Both parents were solid QH's. He came out with a HUGE blanket. If the mare CAN be reg. QH i suggest yall do it and get the foal registered AQHA and ApHC. He could be one of those VERY rare cases and it would do the horse world good to know about him being produced!


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

The foal's sire's name is Hickory Valentine Doc. I am inquiring about the mare, MJ's breeding right now. She is microchipped but not yet registered.

ETA: I have been bugging the BO to register her since she was bred. I really hope it'll happen.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

TexasBlaze said:


> Appaloosa genes in Quarter horses are rare but not unheard of. Check out Reminic in Spots. Both parents were solid QH's. He came out with a HUGE blanket. If the mare CAN be reg. QH i suggest yall do it and get the foal registered AQHA and ApHC. He could be one of those VERY rare cases and it would do the horse world good to know about him being produced!


AQHA and ApHC registration would not be possible. ApHC requires at least 1 regular registered Appy parent, which would make AQHA registration impossible...

.............................................

To the OP - it is very very highly unlikely this foal is a dummy foal...


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

Why do you say that? Based on his development and slow start, the vet that looked him over suggested he was a dummy foal. It took him way too long to become co-ordinated like a normal foal (talking at least a month) and several months before he started being able to run around and be silly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Although not impossible, it would be unusual for an actual dummy foal to nurse as early as in that first picture, and dummy foals don't normally turn out "spunky" while still foals. He may have been a bit short on oxygen, causing him to develop more slowly than normal, but he doesn't look or sound like a true dummy foal to me...


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

Oh awesome  we were very worried about him for quite a while but the vet said he looked good and healthy. 

Thanks for the info.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

I don't see the gray part you mentioned, but The Dam is defiantly some sort of Varnish chestnut, the foal is very handsome, he looks to obviously be a blanket appy lol. His base seems to be a Chestnut/Sorrel, he also has some sort of Overo, probably Frame or Splash due to his face. Which would make since if his Sire was QH.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

From what I have read about the LP gene the mare is NOT a red roan (associated with the roan gene) in the traditional sense but she is roaning out in the sense that she has a mixture of white hairs throughout her body. Some appaloosa bred horses that come out solid don't develop their "characteristics" until many months or years later. Similar in the expression of the Grey gene... IMO the mare is at least part appaloosa. 

Also, this may not be accurate in terminology to people who breed appys but from a journal I read that did a study on the LP gene inheritance, the "roaning" IS an expression of the LP gene an should not not be confused with A ROAN (which is genetically different) because the same gene that makes spots ALSO causes the motley of white hairs to appear scattered on the body. The LP gene manifests itself in more than one way. 

In addition, the baby is a chestnut snowcap (who may develop spots later) - for all intents and purposes - snowcaps also tend to produce more offspring with characteristics much like 'white' few spot producers are said to be homozygous for the LP gene, however, homozygousity and the LP gene is an entirely different subject 

Here are some good reads: 
Global Horse Culture: Not quite roan, II
and
Appaloosa Colour Pattern Transmission


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

smguidotti said:


> From what I have read about the LP gene the mare is NOT a red roan (associated with the roan gene) in the traditional sense but she is roaning out in the sense that she has a mixture of white hairs throughout her body. Some appaloosa bred horses that come out solid don't develop their "characteristics" until many months or years later. Similar in the expression of the Grey gene... IMO the mare is at least part appaloosa.
> 
> Also, this may not be accurate in terminology to people who breed appys but from a journal I read that did a study on the LP gene inheritance, the "roaning" IS an expression of the LP gene an should not not be confused with A ROAN (which is genetically different) because the same gene that makes spots ALSO causes the motley of white hairs to appear scattered on the body. The LP gene manifests itself in more than one way.
> 
> ...


The foal is not a snowcap...


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

looks snowcap to me - a small blanket be it - what would you call it?

Also, I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all but this breeder also describes one of her mini's which appears to have the same pattern expression as a "minimal patterned snowcap" 


image from: http://www.crittercreek.com/crittercreeknew/foals2008.html


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

smguidotti said:


> looks snowcap to me - a small blanket be it - what would you call it?
> 
> Also, I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all but this breeder also describes one of her mini's which appears to have the same pattern expression as a "minimal patterned snowcap.


The OP's foal is a blanket...some might call it a lacey blanket, although that is just a slang term. A snowcap has no base color or spots within the primary boundaries of the blanket - a pure white area if you will. There is base color throughout the blanket, as well aws spots. Furthermore it is my understanding from one of the OP's posts that the sire is a QH, and a snowcap can only result from Appy to Appy breeding, with both parents colored. What the breeder of the mini says is not of consequence - lots of horses are misidentified as to color or pattern. The foal is what it is - a chestnut blanket...


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

Faceman said:


> The OP's foal is a blanket...some might call it a lacey blanket, although that is just a slang term. A snowcap has no base color or spots within the primary boundaries of the blanket - a pure white area if you will. There is base color throughout the blanket, as well aws spots. Furthermore it is my understanding from one of the OP's posts that the sire is a QH, and a snowcap can only result from Appy to Appy breeding, with both parents colored. What the breeder of the mini says is not of consequence - lots of horses are misidentified as to color or pattern. The foal is what it is - a chestnut blanket...


I can't really see any spots on the OP's foal so I just assumed that any appy expressing white like the OP's foal and the mini I pictured were deemed "snow caps" But you are right, I agree with you now - I forgot you need two LP genes to make a snowcap

I just wish you would have explained that the first time instead of only saying "the foal is not a snowcap..." - it's a bit rude.


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

Both mare and colt are 100% Quarter horse. I am intrigued and will post bloodlines as soon as they are registered. I am hoping it happens soon, because with the owner 100% sure that they are and will be registered AQHA, I have no idea why they look like Appys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

smguidotti said:


> I just wish you would have explained that the first time instead of only saying "the foal is not a snowcap..." - it's a bit rude.


Oh come on...there is absolutely nothing rude about just saying it isn't a snowcap. If you want an explanation, then ask, as you did, and you will get an answer. Actually, I assumed you meant "snowflake" instead of "snowcap", which is why I didn't go into a long explanation, as the foal is obviously not a snowcap to an Appy person. A lot of non Appy people get the two terms mixed up.

To correct the rest of your post, the foal is indeed a red roan, which is what the ApHC classifies a chestnut varnish roan as. The foal has a dual pattern - blanket, and varnish roan.

From the ApHC "Guide to Identifying"...

*Base Coat Colors
*







Red Roan
*Description: *White with spots over back and hips. *Face Markings: *Star and snip. *Leg Markings: *Pastern left hind, partial half-pastern right front, lightning marks right hind.​ 
Personally, I don't like even using the term "roan" for Appys, because it just confuses people that think in terms of regular roans, but that's the way they classify them nonetheless...I wish they had chosen a different term to use than "roan"... 

Guide to Identifying an Appaloosa


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I don't see varnish roan on the foal yet. Doesn't mean it won't show up later in life, of course. (Maybe I missed the part of the conversation where someone pointed it out, though?)

The text descriptions on ApHC's website are sadly incomplete. Compare their description of red roan to chestnut:

*Chestnut*










Description: White with spots over back and hips.
Face Markings: Star, stripe and snip.
Leg Markings: Stocking left hind, partial stocking right fore, partial half-stocking right hind.

They don't even _mention_ the varnish roan characteristics in the red roan blurb. As far as I can tell, that whole little box on their website has no point at all. It's listed under "Base coat colors" but doesn't describe anything about the base color for any of the "examples."


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

But he's a QH, so does the term blanket still apply? And the mare is QH as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Lins said:


> But he's a QH, so does the term blanket still apply? And the mare is QH as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Appaloosa is a breed as well as a variety of white patterns. It's like Paint and pinto, except without a different word to differentiate. There are solid Paints, and pinto coloring in numerous breeds. Likewise with the Appaloosa breed and appaloosa color.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

verona1016 said:


> I don't see varnish roan on the foal yet. Doesn't mean it won't show up later in life, of course. (Maybe I missed the part of the conversation where someone pointed it out, though?)
> 
> The text descriptions on ApHC's website are sadly incomplete. Compare their description of red roan to chestnut:
> 
> ...


No, you didn't miss anything. It's just as a long time Appy breeder, I recognize the varnish pattern in foals when most people don't. Plus, the vast majority of blanketed Appys are also varnish roans - it is not rare, but it is unusual, for a blanket Appy to hold its full base color for life.

And you are absolutely right - ApHC's color and pattern descriptions are wacko, which is why many, many Appys are registered incorrectly. Appys are color and pattern nightmares to begin with, and ApHC certainly hasn't made it any easier - nor is it any easier because varnish roan isn't always intuitively obvious at birth like with this foal...as smguidotti mentioned, it might not show up for years - I have had a couple that didn't start varnishing out till they were 5...


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm so eager to get him registered to see how rare or uncommon this occurrence is. I am curios to find out why my little cuddle bug turned out so unique and adorable  

Thanks for the replied everyone!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Lins said:


> I'm so eager to get him registered to see how rare or uncommon this occurrence is. I am curios to find out why my little cuddle bug turned out so unique and adorable
> 
> Thanks for the replied everyone!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't hold your breath. I sincerely doubt they are pure Quarterhorses, but even if they are my guess is AQHA won't register them without an investigation, which will take time.

Keep us posted - I, for one, am interested in the outcome...


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Remember remnic in spots Face? I know there was a big upheaval about him. As far as I know his dam did not start to varnish until she was older as well.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

NdAppy said:


> Remember remnic in spots Face? I know there was a big upheaval about him. As far as I know his dam did not start to varnish until she was older as well.


Haha...Yup - that's why I have to say "sincerely doubt" rather than "absolutely not". But you know me, and know from previous discussions elsewhere I will NEVER believe there is not an Appy in Reminic's woodpile. We both know there are fence jumpers and dishonest breeders, and know that before DNA filing a lot of horses were misregistered. I forget how far back they went with Reminic, but if I remember it was only 1 or maybe 2 generations - DNA was probably unavailable back any farther.

I am just not a believer in spontaneous LP/PATN mutations. Obviously it has happened at least once sometime in the last 55 million years, but the odds are a bazillion to one...with those kind of odds if it looks like an Appy, it is probably an Appy...


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

As with anyone else that has perused this thread, I'll believe he's a purebred QH when I see the proof. But the owner is adamant that the mare is QH. 

The foal's sire is sired by Hickory Bar Bully. He is a beautiful horse, shouldn't be a stud, but he's well conformed, athletic and an amazing temperament. So either way, this foal will be a keeper. I am thrilled to be able to watch him grow up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

Face you have a good point. But if you had to guess, what would you guess my horses breed in pic below is?? "No cheating and looking at my profile, ha ha!" But guess..
Lins very cute foal! Your so lucky!!!

He is four yrs and 16.3hh


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## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

Lins Kal does look Appy to me too. It will be interesting to find out the info you get so be sure and fill us in.


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

Thank you! I am very biased, as he's the first foal I've ever witnessed being born. He is sooo sweet and will roll over for a belly rub if I scratch it when he's lying down. And he let's me snuggle all over when he's napping 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Faceman said:


> Haha...Yup - that's why I have to say "sincerely doubt" rather than "absolutely not". But you know me, and know from previous discussions elsewhere I will NEVER believe there is not an Appy in Reminic's woodpile. We both know there are fence jumpers and dishonest breeders, and know that before DNA filing a lot of horses were misregistered. I forget how far back they went with Reminic, but if I remember it was only 1 or maybe 2 generations - DNA was probably unavailable back any farther.
> 
> I am just not a believer in spontaneous LP/PATN mutations. Obviously it has happened at least once sometime in the last 55 million years, but the odds are a bazillion to one...with those kind of odds if it looks like an Appy, it is probably an Appy...


Yep I remember those discussions. That was when he was for sale and was bought by the Canadians. 

And I agree. APHA, ApHC and AQHA have so much mingled blood it wouldn't surprise me in the least that a little ways back in Reminic In Spots pedigree is something hinky going on (weren't there some breeders running bands of mixed horses and then just registering with whatever registry based on looks? I know people would register better looking horses as having a sire/dam they didn't actually have...), and you are correct, they did not DNA test that far back. 

On the Varnish thing... That's why I try not to refer to it as varnish _roan_ and try to just call it varnish. I figured he was going to be a varnish as well. I'm more surprised at the ones that keep their blankets than by the ones that do. :lol:


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## Lins (Nov 8, 2011)

I will be sure to update this thread as their breeding and registration if possible is figured out. I want it to happen now, I'm so impatient and curious lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes please do!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Charley horse said:


> Face you have a good point. But if you had to guess, what would you guess my horses breed in pic below is?? "No cheating and looking at my profile, ha ha!" But guess..
> Lins very cute foal! Your so lucky!!!
> 
> He is four yrs and 16.3hh


Not enough to go by in that picture, but I would probably be clueless anyway. Seeing as it is an Appy thread, I assume he is an Appy or part Appy. As he is too young to have greyed out that far I would guess he is a fewspot, which means both sire and dam are Appys, which would make him "all Appy". As to his pedigree mix, hard to say. He is tall and light boned for his size, so he could have TB in his pedigree, or he might have come out of some taller halter or sporthorse lines, although he has more of a WP build, which would suggest QH influence.

As I said - pretty clueless...just speculating...


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