# wondering about color of my new horse?



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

The roaming over his body is the sabino, pretty classic in walkers. His body colour is tough. Based on his parents, buckskin or smoky black is likely, but his colour doesnt looks quite right in both the mane and body. There's a lack of mottling, so I dont think there's any champagne.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Roan is a dominant trait. It does not "skip" generations. If the dam carried roan she would show it. If she is truly black then the only thing she could possibly carry and pass that would be "hidden" on her coat is cream. Roaning from sabino is different from roan but sabino roaning is certainly possible and would add a lot of white. With the sire being "white" he could very well be carrying gray which is another dominant gene and that coloration takes over the base coat color. Some horses gray quicker than others so it is possible he is and just slow about the change. In effect hiding the actual color of the horse. So the sire could possibly have passed champagne and bay. Without close ups though it is hard to tell. My guess would be brown (form of bay) with champagne and also gray and add in the sabino. So black from mom and possibly dad. Bay from dad and possibly champagne. Cream could also be in the mix muddling things up. Then gray from dad. If your boy carries champagne his eyes would be amber to light brown and he would have mottling of the skin around the eyes and muzzle and his private parts. I can't tell from the pictures if that is present. if it isn't then that would not be something he carries.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Looks like a flea bitten gray to me.


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## Zeth (Sep 16, 2016)

QtrBel said:


> Roan is a dominant trait. It does not "skip" generations. If the dam carried roan she would show it. If she is truly black then the only thing she could possibly carry and pass that would be "hidden" on her coat is cream. Roaning from sabino is different from roan but sabino roaning is certainly possible and would add a lot of white. With the sire being "white" he could very well be carrying gray which is another dominant gene and that coloration takes over the base coat color. Some horses gray quicker than others so it is possible he is and just slow about the change. In effect hiding the actual color of the horse. So the sire could possibly have passed champagne and bay. Without close ups though it is hard to tell. My guess would be brown (form of bay) with champagne and also gray and add in the sabino. So black from mom and possibly dad. Bay from dad and possibly champagne. Cream could also be in the mix muddling things up. Then gray from dad. If your boy carries champagne his eyes would be amber to light brown and he would have mottling of the skin around the eyes and muzzle and his private parts. I can't tell from the pictures if that is present. if it isn't then that would not be something he carries.


From blowing up the pictures, the skin looks pretty darn even, no signs of mottling. If I saw mottling, I'd back you up for Champagne! His eye also looks a little too dark to be Champagne. 

As far as Cream - if he carried it but didn't present it I don't think there would be any physical appearance change? Again I could be wrong! 

For what it's worth, he looks to me like one of the Fjord colors, but minus dun markings! Especially the shading of the mane.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Cream always expresses unless covered by grey. If dad was 'white', he was probably cremello or perlino, so this guy would have at least one cream and will express it.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The sire could also be maximum sabino so without testing you would not know his base color. The expression of one cream gene on black is often missed as the assumption is just excessive fading and not that they carry a cream to pass. Pictures of the sire would help or the sire's pedigree with color notations so a better guess could be made. Is the sire and dam on AllBreed? 



My vision isn't the greatest and my PC doesn't enlarge more than a small fraction from here so I have a hard time with detail some times. If no mottling and darker eyes then no champagne. So Sabino with considerable roaning from this and Cream on a brownskin......


Sabino can also do things to mane and tail and the frosting on a buckskin or brownskin can also cause changes.


Update here when you do the testing please. It'd be interesting to know for sure.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

I actually think he may have some mottling but it's on his belly/sheath area. I'll try to get a picture today! 

My mare is a DNA tested smoky black and she is the complete opposite of him, so I know he isn't that (https://i.imgur.com/Jy7qYom.jpg this is my mare in the winter, she bleaches out in the summer). My mare also has amber eyes and he doesn't. 

Sadly I have no pictures of the sire or dam and the sire has since passed away. I can ask his previous owner if he has any photos he can send me but I'm not 100% certain he does. Neither sire or dam are on AllBreed, but some others in his linage are (https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/push5 grandpa on his dam's side, https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/favorites+lucky+gold grandpa on sire's side).


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Looks like a greying horse. Though he could be some sort of heavy roaning sabino. His sire could have been a max white sabino= White. Or a grey. 

Was he ever darker when you bought him? How old is he? 

A dna could confirm your grey, and let you know your base colors.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Dehda01 said:


> Looks like a greying horse. Though he could be some sort of heavy roaning sabino. His sire could have been a max white sabino= White. Or a grey.
> 
> Was he ever darker when you bought him? How old is he?
> 
> A dna could confirm your grey, and let you know your base colors.



I don't think he's grey as he has not changed colored at all since his previous owner bought him at 3. He is 7 currently. I've only owned him for 2 months so he wasn't darker when I got him. He lightens up in the summer and grows in a dark winter coat which is not typical for a grey horse (they don't usually bleach in the summer).


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Yes. Grey horses often do darken in winter because they have the longer coat and so the base coat looks more concentrated. And they can absolutely sunbleach. One of my geldings looked nearly black for many years and really looked sunburnt buckskin in summer.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I am not a color guru, but to me, an average horse person, l would call him a gray.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I don't think grey is likely. Sire's sire has no grey, but does have cream. At best, Sire would be Gg from the dam side, but it sounds like he's had 'lots' of foals and none have been reported grey. Either he's had terrible luck with not throwing a single grey (vs 50%), or he's not grey, assuming the reported colours are accurate.

His expression of white doesn't look like grey to me.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Dehda01 said:


> Yes. Grey horses often do darken in winter because they have the longer coat and so the base coat looks more concentrated. And they can absolutely sunbleach. One of my geldings looked nearly black for many years and really looked sunburnt buckskin in summer.



Sorry! The horses at my barn and that I've known in person that were actually grey did not change significantly from summer to winter. 

Here is a picture of his sheath area I got today, which seems to resemble at least maybe minor mottling? https://i.imgur.com/EONG31a.jpg


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I have bred and owned 24 different greys and got to watch them in their own ways. But all f them have been darker in winter coat as they greys out. 

I do think it is more likely to be extreme sabino marks, particularly if he hasn’t been getting lighter each year. 

But his color at this time looks like a grey horse progressing grey.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

But that doesn't rule out gray from the sires dam or dams dam.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

QtrBel said:


> But that doesn't rule out gray from the sires dam or dams dam.


Is this in response to my post?

Dam is reported to be black, so dam's dam is irrelevant as far as passing grey. Sire's dam could pass grey, but stats aren't in the sire's favour with the number of offspring we've been told about. Can't rule it out, but I wouldn't bet on the odds.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Yes Apuetso. Sorry, and you are right I was forgetting dam was black.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

He has no horses in any of his linage that are registered as grey. Here are a picture of his dam and sire's papers: https://i.imgur.com/REhGfWa.jpg


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

So from that the sire could be cremello carrying agouti, perlino or smokey black if I decoded that correctly and then have the sabino with a probability of maximum white. It is interesting that they give you the color white as an option and also give you the MS for maximum sabino under pattern as that would be my guess since there are no other white horses listed and don't TWH carry dominant white? That would mean one of his parents would have had to be dominant white or am I missing something. The sires parents are listed as paint and buckskin. they don't show the markings.


I looked at as many as I could find on allbreed by just doing a google search and then looking at any with pictures. None are paints. I'd wonder if it were possible another sire is his. From the dams markings there is no suggestion of Sabino from that side.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> So from that the sire could be cremello carrying agouti, perlino or smokey black if I decoded that correctly and then have the sabino with a probability of maximum white. It is interesting that they give you the color white as an option and also give you the MS for maximum sabino under pattern as that would be my guess since there are no other white horses listed and don't TWH carry dominant white? That would mean one of his parents would have had to be dominant white or am I missing something. The sires parents are listed as paint and buckskin. they don't show the markings.
> 
> 
> I looked at as many as I could find on allbreed by just doing a google search and then looking at any with pictures. None are paints. I'd wonder if it were possible another sire is his. From the dams markings there is no suggestion of Sabino from that side.



I was told that his sire, even though registered as "white", was more likely a perlino or something in that color range than actual true white (he was registered I believe before TWHBEA did DNA verification). I don't know if there were any other possibilities of studs to be his sire, I am going to contact his previous owner to verify.


Although, according to TWHBEA, to be registered as a grey at least one parent has to be also verified as grey, so he could not be registered as that regardless since neither parent is grey (as a side note, working with his previous owner to get him registered).


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I don't know about the nuances of registration but GENETICALLY one parent must be grey for the offspring to be grey (I'm sure why that rule is in place!) So if neither of sires parents are grey then the only option is sabino ticking. It's not usually so extensive but TWHs are one of the breeds known for a more dramatic expression and lots of ticking.

As far as base color way too hard to tell with the amount of white he has. Would need to know actual color of parents and could then make a guess. He does look very dark in the winter, and looks like his points are darker in the summer so I'm going with black based likely bay or brown, but that's mostly just a guess. No way to say for sure without knowing parents and/or color testing.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Apuetso I think she was referring to the horses in his lineage not foals when she said he had lots of x,y,z colors. OP is that what you meant?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@Yogiwick his dam is black and the sure has white listed on his papers. In the earlier post there was a misprint it should have said palomino going from the abbreviations. And not paint.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Ps no editing on my phone and autocorrect recorrections what I have recorrected....


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

QtrBel said:


> Apuetso I think she was referring to the horses in his lineage not foals when she said he had lots of x,y,z colors. OP is that what you meant?


Oh, on second( or third) read, I think you are right. I assumed it was offspring, not ancestors. My bad.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Yeah, sorry, I mean in his linage as in on his papers not offspring, lol. sorry I wasn't clear!


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Just as a heads up, many greys are incorrectly registered as their base door as a foal because the breeder doesn’t realize they will change. See it all the time. 

And sometimes grey can be registered incorrectly as white. I don’t know why a double dilute would be registered as a white. That takes a really ignorant person... though it can happen. 

If his sire was a double dilute, your horse would need to be expressing it- since it is a homozygous trait. It doesn’t appear that he is -unless that is Smokey black under the sabino or grey...


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## Oktobar (Sep 24, 2013)

Based on what OP said and the photos, my immediate thought was classic champagne. It's a fun mystery!

probably need a cream tossed in there.... and he doesn't have the hazel eyes, but does have the mottling? Ok, I'm less confident!


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

I added some new photos to his album now that his winter fur is starting to grow in: https://imgur.com/a/iwXWdXO Towards the bottom you can see photos from Sept and Oct.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I vote for grey...


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

AnitaAnne said:


> I vote for grey...


He isn't getting lighter with age, and neither of his parents or any horses in his heritage are grey, so he isn't a grey


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That would not be mottling. Both on his face and sheath is normal paint markings. This shows sabino roaning in Belgians - you can see how extensive it is on the face and also mottling on the nose. You know dam is black and think sire is double cream so I would go with smoky black with extensive sabino.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

The horse I knew that reminds me of him was a half arab half quarterhorse mare who was called a strawberry roan, but it was in the 1970's. She was a classic chestnut sabino -- very sabino with high white and a bald face. She had no smoky shading like your horse though. Your horse I am guessing is sabino, not gray nor roan, on a bay or brownskin base. 

I hope you post when you get your results back!


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I almost bought a TWH with markings like yours. He had very obvious sabino markings. His coat looked so grey, i originally assumed grey sabino. But on closer examination, his face was dark and his tail was dark. In the winter his coat darkens to look like a blue roan. My guess, as to his color was blue roan sabino. I just saw the horse last week and he is dark again with his winter coat. Obviously, not a grey.

Most greys continue to turn more and more grey. I knew one who had dark grey dapples, he turned white, then eventually became flea speckled by his teens. Knightriders filly was palomino to start with but is now almost completely white due to the grey gene.

I'm going to assume your horse is a black with sabino, in addition to some other modifier (smoky black)??


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## Dwarf (Jun 26, 2014)

I agree that the white looks like it's mostly caused by extensive sabino. Until you test him, I'd personally just call him a maximum sabino.



I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he -also- had grey though, he has such little base coat showing under the sabino that he could grey quite a bit before it was really noticeable. With so many horses in his lineage that are registered as cream dilutes, roans, and sabinos; I think it's possible that gray could have snuck through the generations without being correctly registered. A small chance, but just a thought. I really don't think it's possible to tell for sure just by looking at him.




He's a beautiful fella either way, and I'll be very interested in what his test returns!


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

It sounds as though the sire could be gray, couldn't he? He is registered "white" which is almost undoubtedly incorrect, so he could have been a very light gray, no? If I just saw this guy out in a field somewhere, I would have called him a rose gray. Maybe that is just an Arabian color, not sure.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Dehda01 said:


> Just as a heads up, many greys are incorrectly registered as their base door as a foal because the breeder doesn’t realize they will change. See it all the time.
> 
> And sometimes grey can be registered incorrectly as white. I don’t know why a double dilute would be registered as a white. That takes a really ignorant person... though it can happen.
> 
> If his sire was a double dilute, your horse would need to be expressing it- since it is a homozygous trait. It doesn’t appear that he is -unless that is Smokey black under the sabino or grey...


Agree if the sire was registered as white, much more likely to really be a grey rather than a double dilute. 

I'm still thinking the horse is a grey...


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Except that there are no gray horses listed in his registration. Somewhere along the line someone would have gotten it correct you would think. Dam is black and same goes no grays listed and the owners of the dam would have told OP if she was gray since OP was able to get a picture of both parent's papers. Now there is a champagne on her side but that would have shown up too. Same as roan or gray. Sire has a palomino and a buckskin parent. Sire could be Cremello, Perlino or Smoky Cream depending on what he inherited. That would guarantee a cream gene passed. Dam could have passed black or chestnut opening up the possibility of liver chestnut but the cream gene would certainly have more of an effect I would think. I'd love to see test results too out of curiosity.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> Except that there are no gray horses listed in his registration. Somewhere along the line someone would have gotten it correct you would think. Dam is black and same goes no grays listed and the owners of the dam would have told OP if she was gray since OP was able to get a picture of both parent's papers. Now there is a champagne on her side but that would have shown up too. Same as roan or gray. Sire has a palomino and a buckskin parent. Sire could be Cremello, Perlino or Smoky Cream depending on what he inherited. That would guarantee a cream gene passed. Dam could have passed black or chestnut opening up the possibility of liver chestnut but the cream gene would certainly have more of an effect I would think. I'd love to see test results too out of curiosity.


I live in Alabama and am basing my guess not just on the horse's appearance, but also on what I know of the culture...grey is not a popular color here, many people don't register their horses especially if they are geldings, and many don't ever update the papers if they look different than they did as a foal. 


I think a picture of the dam and sire would clear up a lot of questions...

I guess a test will be the only way to know...hope the OP shows the results...


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

The previous owner told me that while his sire was registered as white, he was likely a perlino. Sadly I asked for photos of sire and dam and could not get any.  the sire has also since passed away. 

My guy is 7 years old and has no color change at all - grays start off dark and progressively get lighter as they age. He hasn't changed - he is not a gray. 

I'm hoping to get him tested soon - a full color panel work up is $150 so a little pricey! I will 100% post the results when I get them.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@*AnitaAnne* I agree there are bias everywhere depending on where you are at. But, both parents are registered and the OP posted a copy of both dam and sire's papers. Colors are listed. My thought if grey then sire is not the actual sire. IMO as the horse has not changed with the amount of white over several years (7, I think) then not grey but extensive roaning of some type that is stable (sabino).


From the OP: "He has no horses in any of his linage that are registered as grey. Here are a picture of his dam and sire's papers: https://i.imgur.com/REhGfWa.jpg"


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Small update - I actually talked with the guy who owned his sire and dam. He confirmed that the sire was a perlino (not white as it states on his papers). He also told me that actually, his dam was a light palomino mare he owned, not the originally thought black/black roan mare. He's going to send me some photos of her, the sire, and a copy of the dams papers. I will update when I get those!


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Here is his real dam's papers.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

So the sire is bay with two cream genes and the mare is chestnut with one. He is likely EeCrcr and could be A_. The E(black) from sire as well as one of the cream genes and e from the mare. He is not double dilute. I'd say there is possibly an agouti gene. It'll be interesting to see pictures.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Likely smokey black though.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Likely smokey black though.


My mare is smoky black and looks completely the opposite of him, is that possible?

also, I added more recent photos to Gus' album: https://imgur.com/a/iwXWdXO scroll down to the bottom to see from Oct and Nov


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

I got photos of the sire and dam! not great photos, but mind you these are older and probably before smartphones were wildly popular so they are printed photos. He took pictures of them to send to me with his phone so there's some minor glare on them. 

Two photos of the dam, one of the sire. The dam is with a foal, who is not Gus, lol.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Yea, smoky black most likely. The heavy sabino roaning is going to distort the presentation.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I know absolutely zippo about the color. It is interesting though and he is very handsome.


What brand of saddle is that, if I may ask?


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Dustbunny said:


> I know absolutely zippo about the color. It is interesting though and he is very handsome.
> 
> 
> What brand of saddle is that, if I may ask?


It is an Allegany Mountain Trail Saddle  It's fantastic and I loove it!


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Also, he doesn't have amber colored eyes - don't smoky black's have amber eyes, due to the cream gene?


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

trailridertwh said:


> I got photos of the sire and dam! not great photos, but mind you these are older and probably before smartphones were wildly popular so they are printed photos. He took pictures of them to send to me with his phone so there's some minor glare on them.
> 
> Two photos of the dam, one of the sire. The dam is with a foal, who is not Gus, lol.


I was reading your thread and thought I'd jump in. Its quite fun to speculate what your boy could be  since we see so little of his base color. I thought grey buckskin sabino at first. But when you posted the pictures of the sire and dam.. is the last picture the sire?
Honestly, he doesn't look perlino to me.. I don't see pink skin. Looks more like a buckskin with a lot of sabino going on. _(Or maybe even some gray thrown in.)_


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

No. The cream gene does not effect eye color unless it is double cream. A perlino would have lighter eyes and pink skin all over. I noticed the dark skin on the face of the sire in the pic. Ill go back and look again but that does not look perlino. Smokey blacks have brown eyes unless something else is present and the pattern will distort things especially when fading happens.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Smokey black will fade and show some pretty extreme seasonal change when new coats come in. The roaming also changes the presentation. If your mare has no roan she would look different. Do you have pictures of her? Not home or I would post pics of one I had.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Yes I have lots of pictures of her! 

Also, my mare is DNA tested as smoky black and she only has one creme copy: 

"Cream Result:
N/Cr - Heterozygous, dilute, one copy of Cream gene. Typical colors are palomino, buckskin and smoky black in the absence of other modifying genes." (straight from UC Davis)

She 100% has amber eyes. so I'm not sure that you need two copies to have amber eyes. 

She gets very dark in the winter, and bleaches out almost like a buckskin in the summer.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Here's a couple more. I actually have a whole album if you wanted to browse through that, lol: https://imgur.com/a/3VTfZ

and


Kyro said:


> But when you posted the pictures of the sire and dam.. is the last picture the sire?


yes, the last photo is of the sire


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I think of amber as having a more yellow tone and those as just a lighter shade of brown. They have variety in coloration like people. Pretty mare.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Small update: today I sent out the forms + his mane hair to be tested, so hopefully within a week or so (or maybe longer, because of Christmas) we will know his results!!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Exciting! It'll be interesting to see. What did you test for?


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Exciting! It'll be interesting to see. What did you test for?


I actually got a full color and pattern panel done. I also got him tested for gait because it was all part of a deal package, ha.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

Based off what I've seen and read I'm going to say he looks like a classic cream, sable cream, or classic champagne. 
The reason I think this is because mom was described as a light palomino, which could have been amber or gold creme. Or if mom is palomino dad could carry champagne. 

Dad is not a perlino. He doesn't have blue eyes, and their skin isn't dark like that around the eyes on perlinos and cremello. So, no dad isn't a double creme dilute. My experience tells me he is max white sabino, but it's also possible there's more than one white pattern, such as overo or tobiano.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I missed that. Looking more at the mare than sire but that is true. For dad to be a double dilute he would not have black skin.


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

The lab received his hair today so hopefully by the end of the week we'll know!


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

Alright!! I got Gus' results!!

Here they are!!

Rfactor: EE
Agouti: aa
Cream: nCr
Dun: nd2/nd2
Silver: nn
Champagne: nn
Pearl: nn
Grey: g/g
Tabiano: nn
LWO: nn
Sabino: nSb1
SW1: nn
SW2: nn
SW3: nn
LP: lp/lp
PATN1: nn

They had to run grey as an additional test and I got that over the phone, they said he was negative for grey and won't grey out.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

So smokey black with sabino. Pretty neat that they can find out all that info.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Didn't you do gait too? Did you get those back?


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Didn't you do gait too? Did you get those back?


Yes! However it seems that these results are not yet ready. 

it's so crazy that he is a smoky black, I'm amazed at how genetics can alter colorations.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Very curious what he would look like if he didn't have all the sabino ticking, that is scewing his color quite a bit. So cool to see the results, thanks for sharing!


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## trailridertwh (Sep 15, 2018)

I finally got the gait results and he is A/A (https://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/Equine Performance/Gait.asp). Which is unsurprising as he is a full blooded TWH.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

So much fun!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Amazing all of the new things they are discovering.


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