# How do you avoid banging your knees on trees?



## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

I've heard of people tieing an empty rubber wheel/tire to either side of the saddle, and letting the horse teach itself not to run into a tree. But I don't think that's the kind of advice you were looking for :lol:

A lot of neck reined horses I know are really good at working off leg and seat, and the reins are just an 'enforcer', of sorts. If they're not really good at neck reining, or working entirely off your other cues, I have never had a problem with picking up the reins (or a rein) when really needed, even though you're not technically supposed to.

Is it someone else's horse you're riding? I ask because you said you're not familiar with neck reining. If so, perhaps ask the owner to show you the 'buttons'.

If it were me, assuming it was a well-trained horse, and the tree were coming up on my left, I'd put my left leg on or just slightly behind the girth, asking the horse to sort of go sideways or leg yield a bit. To keep it from just moving directly off (since I asked for more of a lateral movement), I'd use rein against the neck to keep the horse's body straight - if needed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

YOu want to turn the horse INTO the tree, not away from it. With direct reining, I would pick up the left rein and tip the nose toward the tree as I am approaching it, put on the left leg and ask the horse to pay attention to that tree and move around it. If he doesnt curve in the body a bit and step more away from it, by golly, I will tip his nose so that he runs smack into it. He'll hit the tree, instead of my knee.

For neck reining, I am not as sure. I don't neck rein, but I suppose you can still reach down and take up the inside rein a bit more than the outside and tip his nose in tward that tree.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

The horse belongs to the barn where I ride and he's used as a lesson horse for beginners so he's not exactly push button. You have to be more clear with what you want. I was giving pretty hard leg but he just kind of walked along, so then I had to use the neck rein like it was English reins and turn his nose right into the tree before he was like "Ahhh I need to move away!"

I know there's got to be a way to neck rein away from a tree with only one hand but I dont' know if the tree is on the left, do I swing the rein on the left side of his neck or the right? 

I didn't get a chance to ask the BO what the best method was because there were so many others in front and then by the time the ride was over I forgot to ask.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Since my horses all pack at one time or another, They have learned to avoid bagging the panniers on the trees. My knees are not near as big as a pannier. 

If I am on a horse that crowds a tree, I lift my booted foot and push off the tree, trying as hard as I can to unbalance the horse. They learn pretty quick to give the trees a wider berth. Again, I'm sure that is not the answer you are seeking.

Horses ridden western style that have had proper training should move off your leg. So I would start with bumping the tree side of the horse asking him to move away from the tree.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Painted Horse said:


> Horses ridden western style that have had proper training should move off your leg. So I would start with bumping the tree side of the horse asking him to move away from the tree.


I will say that is true of proper training regardless of tack.

Tip the head towards the tree. Push the hindquarters away with your leg just behind the girth.

A leg yield by any other name.......


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## snootyfox (Jan 23, 2011)

Quick and easy method if you are in a pinch and able place your hand on the tree ... with your hand on the trunk give a slight push it will actually shift your horse's weight (by shifting yours) away from the tree. You won't need to shove hard or you will destabilize your horse. Not always possible with low hanging branches but I have used this method for years even in thick stands of trees. A few times doing this and your horse will start to get the idea and balance himself.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

On a western hore that neck reins very well they take flexion off leg and seat cues. For example, if I lay my left leg on Selena's ribcage, her entire body (Including her head and neck) will curve to the left around my leg. She will move her shoulder with the rein. She wil counter arc if I touch my left leg but pull my reins to the right. It's a bit differant than riding with two hands.

What I would do is just leg yield the other way honestly....


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Most the time I just (tree on left) lay the reins on the left side of my horses neck and he'll step to the right a bit. If I need him to move more then I'll put some leg in it. One of the biggest things to remember is to not allow them to step back to the left until after your knee has passed the tree. On narrow trails they will want to step back just as soon as you release pressure.

Since neither of you are used to neck reining you will want to work on it a lot. That means as you trail ride treat every wiggle in the trail as if it was an actual turn. It usually doesn't take a horse long to pick up on what you want when doing this.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

I went through deep brush and trees on Saturday. I ride western and find if I kick my feet out of the stirrups I can be prepared to negotiate my foot and knees should my horse not give much room when I ask for a lateral move. 

I also find halting the horse right before a tight path also allows him to respond to the cue. At one point on Saturday I halted and backed him up one step and gave a very firm "go RIGHT." I think the branch we walked around would've unseated me otherwise. 

I firmly believe in guiding your horse, but I like my legs free to I can freely protect my limbs.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

snootyfox said:


> Quick and easy method if you are in a pinch and able place your hand on the tree ... with your hand on the trunk give a slight push it will actually shift your horse's weight (by shifting yours) away from the tree. You won't need to shove hard or you will destabilize your horse. Not always possible with low hanging branches but I have used this method for years even in thick stands of trees. A few times doing this and your horse will start to get the idea and balance himself.


Was just gonna suggest the same thing. I also use that technique to keep a horse from catching my foot in a corral panel.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I just pull my knee up towards the forks or pommel.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I wear ****** and brace for impact. :lol:

Honestly, before I got ******/chaps my legs were always bruised up and I would tear my pants up frequently. Now I feel like I have leg armor.

Now ideally I would leg yeild the horse away from the tree, but that would take me paying attention and noticing the obstacle before we actually get to it, in order to set myself up for a leg yield away from the tree. But in actuality I never seem to pay attention to the obstacle ahead of time, hence the leg armor.

I like Painted Horse's idea of pushing off the tree with your leg. I'm going to have to try that.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

It's just not trees

















As this lady who came along on one of my rides found out.









The ******/Chaps help, Will protect my pants, but they don't stop the bruising of my knee


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

tinyliny said:


> YOu want to turn the horse INTO the tree, not away from it. With direct reining, I would pick up the left rein and tip the nose toward the tree as I am approaching it, put on the left leg and ask the horse to pay attention to that tree and move around it. If he doesnt curve in the body a bit and step more away from it, by golly, I will tip his nose so that he runs smack into it. He'll hit the tree, instead of my knee.
> 
> For neck reining, I am not as sure. I don't neck rein, but I suppose you can still reach down and take up the inside rein a bit more than the outside and tip his nose in tward that tree.


Why would you want your horse to drop it's shoulder?

Either style of riding - put the leg on the side of the tree on the horse. Ask the horse to move over. Direct reining you will pick up your right rein and put the left leg on. Neck reining you will lay your reins on the left side of the neck and put your left leg on.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I now realize most of you assume trail riding is done only at a walk.

Sticking your feet or hands out at a trot or canter is a sure fire way to end up with broken or dislocated limbs.

I either steer the horse around the obstacle using inside leg/outside rein or leg yield him away by tipping the nose towars the outside and pressing with my outside leg just behind the girth.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

mls said:


> Direct reining you will pick up your right rein and put the left leg on.


A sort of half pass?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

mildot said:


> A sort of half pass?


Yes.

It always baffles me that folks that 'just' trail ride don't understand the importance of simple moves - half pass (side pass for those of us in the western world, turn on forehand, turn on the hind quarters, roll backs, heck - even just backing in an arc!

Being able to isolate and move just one part of any horse is important in any discipline!


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

> I now realize most of you assume trail riding is done only at a walk.
> 
> Sticking your feet or hands out at a trot or canter is a sure fire way to end up with broken or dislocated limbs.
> 
> I either steer the horse around the obstacle using inside leg/outside rein or leg yield him away by tipping the nose towars the outside and pressing with my outside leg just behind the girth.


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/trail-riding/how-do-you-avoid-banging-your-112198/page2/#ixzz0U6EX3TkG
I think your assumption is wrong. I think most people go all different gaits during a trail ride. However, the scenario that the OP described is definitely one I'd be walking through and it sounds like to me that she was walking. 

I personally have used my hand to push off a tree to keep from whacking my knee. I have even had to do it at a running walk. I'd prefer to move my horse over, but in a pinch it works just fine to push off of a tree.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Thank you for all of the replies!



> However, the scenario that the OP described is definitely one I'd be walking through and it sounds like to me that she was walking.


We were definitely walking. The woods were so thick and the ground was not flat. I can't imagine doing anything faster than a walk.

I did push off a few trees with my hand because I was realizing he wasn't responding to my leg in enough time.

I'm so used to direct reining that I'm finding the neck reining a bit more challenging than I thought. 

I do not want to be one of those people that blame the horse...but...lol....I did ask to take this horse on the trail because he's so laid back and I'd never been on this particular trail before. However with his laid-backness he's also not very responsive. He's a horse that kids ride a lot so I don't think he responds to a leg as quickly as another horse would.
I can really see how much I'm going to benefit when I finally get my own horse who knows me and my cues. It's kind of hard riding different horses all the time and those horses have different riders all the time. 

but anyway, I'm definitely going to do harder leg and get it more behind the girth. My instinct was, tree coming on left, use left leg, but lay the neck rein on his *left* side in an attempt to move right, but it wasn't working that well. His _front_ half moved to the right, but his _back_ side was still hitting the tree on the left. I'm going to ask my trainer about this particular horse what's the best way.

At the hunter barn where I rode there were a few horses that moved beautifully off leg pressure. No hands involved. So it's easy to get spoiled off the more push button horses. But being on the trail, I preferred the slow and easy guy this time. 

Painted Horse, I'm getting claustrophobia just looking at those pictures! It's beautiful, fascinating and yet scary at the same time! While the trees were close, they were not *that* close! I imagine that for the horses to go through that, you'd need a horse that loads well and not one that freaks out over tight spaces, lol. Wow. 

I actually thought of wearing small knee pads but I don't want to look like I'm going into battle between my helmet and the knee pads. I want to learn how to do it right.



> It always baffles me that folks that 'just' trail ride don't understand the importance of simple moves


Absolutely 100% agree. This is why I'm taking lessons. I want to know all of this stuff. My trainer told me that trail riders are usually the last group to take lessons. Or they take a few and then buy a horse. No wonder there are so many accidents on the trail. It's amazing there aren't more. I want to know all the moves before I get my own horse. The problem with other trail riders is they don't have training and their "cues" are yelling at the horse, flailing their arms around and freaking out. Then the other horses freak out and it's a mess.

I guess the year of English lessons had a bigger affect on me because I like the idea of using the least amount of physical and verbal cues possible. I like riding with quiet hands and using mostly leg pressure. I don't want to yell at the horse. This particular ride was definitely not a relaxing ride. However, I did learn a lot. It was almost like 10 lessons in one. I can see what I need to work on.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Not to steal the thread but similar situation, what would you do? I have a green 5 year old that likes to run into the rear end of his buddy to stop. I say he is green even though he was started two years ago but I don't get much time on him. Anyway, the first time he did it, his buddy stopped to poop. I tried to turn him away which caused my knee to go up his buddy's butt. O.O I ended up with a nice, big greenish spot on my knee. I couldn't turn him into the other horse because that's where he was going. Any suggestions?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't know what to tell you but I'm sure you know that your horse's habit is going to get him kicked sooner or later.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

UsandPets,

I have a butt-rider horse also. One reason he rides butts is because he really steps out nicely and his walking calmly pace is faster than a lot of other horses we ride with.

The other reason is he has a pretty small bubble and doesn't mind other horses near him. 

But, regardless, it is not safe. Especially on hilly terrain. If the horse in front of us has a screw-up we don't have time to prevent us from joining the train wreck.

What he was doing is walking close enough to wipe his nose on the other horse causing me to have to keep "correcting him" by tugging on the bit. Ick. nag nag nag and he ignored ignored ignored. If I stopped him to create distance he would walk out fast to catch up. 

Here is what I have been doing to train him to maintain a safe distance betwen him and the horse in front of us. We rode on Saturday and I saw a 110% improvement in Sam's tailgating. He is still not perfect, but I know it is working.

In the round pen (or arena) I have been working on gait slow down and I use "easy" as my spoken voice (instead of whoa). I rein him in until I feel his gait shift down (carspeak) and say "eaaaaassssyyyy." As soon as I feel his pace slow, I release the tension in the reins. If he picks back up, tension on reins. Just like a car, I am trying to shift him down only one speed at a time. Fast trot (we don't lope) to slow trot. Slow trot to jog. Jog to normal walk, normal walk to sloooowww walk. By kicking down only one gait at a time, it was easier (I think) for him to understand easy. Plus, i don't want him to stop, just slow down..

(Keep in mind everyone, I'm a novice. I'm describing what I feel and do. I'm sure there are better horsey technical terms).

I also reinforced whoa and backs. I would say Whoa (whoa means stop NOW) and pull back on reins to stop. As soon as all four legs stopped, I pulled him into a back for at least 2-3 steps. This truly reinforced the stop of forward motion.

Now, back to the trail on Saturday.... A little correction on the bit caused him to slow down, which is half my battle for preventing tailgating. I visualized a safe distance between us and the front horse and if he started past it, I slowed him down. It is easier to slow down before you are on the tail of the horse in front of you.

I also asked to lead a few times, where Sam could progress at his natural walking speed. I don't want to cause him to lose that gait, it is a comfortable and ground covering walk. 

Be fair to your horse, who, like Sam, may have a small bubble and tolerate other horses close nearby. If the horse behind you is riding his tail, you may find it harder to slow your horse down and give way.

I probably practiced the gait transition for two weeks within 3 to 4 training sessions a week at 15-20 minutes per session.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

oh the nose up the butt horses. Gotta love them! The guy I was riding was constantly trying to get up on the other horse's rear and I was fighting him back a lot. He seems like he was one of those horses used in a string you see in vacation areas where they walk nose to tail and the riders are really just passengers. 
My trainer told me that she's seen riders get kicked because their horse got too close to another horse. Other horse kicks, misses your horse, but nails your leg.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

mildot said:


> I now realize most of you assume trail riding is done only at a walk.
> 
> Sticking your feet or hands out at a trot or canter is a sure fire way to end up with broken or dislocated limbs.


I love to trot and canter out on the trail! But only in safe areas. If I am having to doge trees I don't feel it's a safe area to trot/canter/gallop. 

I did swerve to miss a tree once while cantering up a hill. When I ducked the saddle rolled over and I was doing some kind of monkey circus trick riding on the horse's side. Three lessons came out of that incident. 

1. Only go fast areas relatively free of obstacles
2. Always check your cinch periodically during a ride and 
3. A breast collar can save your saddle from rolling under the horse. Thank God my horse had a breast collar on or I might have been under the horse's belly instead of on his side.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

> A breast collar can save your saddle from rolling under the horse. Thank God my horse had a breast collar on or I might have been under the horse's belly instead of on his side.


I'll admit I used to think breast collars only served the purpose of looking cool. But I can see after reading several stories like yours that they do in fact serve a purpose. It's just one of those pieces of tack you hope you won't ever need, like in your case! Wow, scary stuff!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Heelsdown said:


> I'll admit I used to think breast collars only served the purpose of looking cool. But I can see after reading several stories like yours that they do in fact serve a purpose. It's just one of those pieces of tack you hope you won't ever need, like in your case! Wow, scary stuff!


I feel like I am doing a community service to point that out because before that incident I really didn't know a breast collar could save your saddle from rolling under the horse. Most people tell you they are only for going up hills and if you ride on the flat you don't need them. 

Now I feel they are like a seat-belt for my saddle! 99% of the time they just look cool, but in an emergency they really could save your life. I mean, I really think about what would have happened if the saddle had rolled under. I probably would have rolled under too. And got run over.

I ended up dropping off and was bruised but fine. My horse even came back and stood by me until I was able to get up. He had a reputation for running home but he earned brownie points that day.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

All right it seems I made some incorrect assumptions.

But still the thought of sticking my arms or legs straight out to push on immovable objects while on a moving animal just gives me the willies.

Where I trail ride it's a mix of wooded trails and open spaces. I'll do a nice working or extended trot in the wooded sections so long as I have some fwd visibility (relatively straight section of trail). Other sections get walked.

Even at a walk I'd be leery of pushing off a tree for fear that a limb may get caught on something while Dobbin keeps going.

I'd rather just leg yield, turn, or stop the horse.

And believe me I know how painful it is to hit something with your knee while passing by on a horse. Happened at a walk in an arena when I got too close to one of the fence posts.


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

I think the idea of speed is relative to your trail environment. I naturally assumed the OP was picking her way through an overgrown forest on an incline. That is what I am used to. Last week I commented how refreshing it is to have an actual trail. 

I use the push off technique but we are basically considering the placement of each foot maticulously. 

To go any faster I better have a 4foot wide path fully clear of obstacles at which point my knees are safe. 

Great discussion!!


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Trails with good footings, brush is back away from the trail, I have no problem moving along at a faster speed. In fact I enjoy the higher speed canter, weaving through the forest. 









But when the trails get icy or steep or over grown with brush, We usually slow down


















I don't enjoy banging a knee on a tree even at a walk. And I'm definitely not going to put a foot out and push off a tree at a canter. I'm sure the tree would remain where it was and I'd be on the dirt.


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## huntfishnride (Jan 25, 2012)

Most of my riding is done in the Mountains and much of it is off trail. Usually we are in steep country and are riding on, in and between different game trails. Deer and Elk trails can be a challenge to follow as the animals aren't as big as a horse, and aren't carrying a rider. The trails are usually littered with dead fall and low hanging trees/limbs. Often you have to leave the game trail to skirt wide around various obstacles. Add full saddlebags, a gun scabbard, bedroll, and a packhorse in your off hand and it makes riding a horse that isn't aware of its rider a real challenge. You can always tell who in our group is riding a colt due to the amount of Pine needles and broken branches down their neck, in their hat, and on them and their horse.

How do you train them for this? There have already been several good ideas shared. My favorite answer too most horse problems, is miles. Our best horses are usually the ones who have the most miles under pack or saddle. 

If you want a horse that knows how to take care of itself and its rider in rough terrain then go ride a bunch of miles in rough terrain on that horse. Consistently correct it each and every time it "forgets" to look out for you. As Painted Horse said packing a horse does wonders for a horse in helping them not scrape you off on trees. It is also a great way to teach a horse not to follow too close. Teach a horse to back by shaking the lead rope and then pony it behind you on a few rides. Any time it starts to get to close back it off by shaking the rope. It doesn't take them too long before they figure out they are getting too close.

Pushing off of trees, rock or whatever obstacle is very effective as well. It is surprising how easily you can move a big animal with a simple push. I never lock my leg or elbow and make sure that the horse can move in the direction I push. As long as the terrain isn't so steep that I endanger my horse or I it is better to exaggerate the push so that they have to move their feet. The goal is to help them learn that it is easier for them if they account for your space then it is to catch their balance and move their feet when you push off.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

MLS, you don't think trail riders know how to use their aids? A lot of trail riders I know do use their aides properly. It is imperative on trail especially in certain circumstances.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

goneriding said:


> MLS, you don't think trail riders know how to use their aids? A lot of trail riders I know do use their aides properly. It is imperative on trail especially in certain circumstances.


I don't want to answer for her but I don't think she means that * no* trail riders do. Just that many do not know and they aren't seeking any type of training in order to learn. I'm in the group that doesn't know all of my aids, however I take weekly lessons and only trail ride with my trainer or some type of guide there, so I am learning.

I ride with a group that is fantastic. They know their aids and as a result, the ride is pleasurable. They like me because I'm the eager beaver who wants to learn. Until I have a lot more lessons under my belt, I don't plan on doing anything other than walking trails, trotting some in open areas and having my trainer or some skilled person with me.

But it's amazing how many trail riders don't have skills, never took lessons and just kind of wing it out on the trail. I'd say it's very hit and miss with trail riders who have training or are in training versus those that just want to learn as they go. Depending on the type of trail it can be pretty dangerous to not have formal training which is why there are certain groups I don't like riding with. Nothing against them, I just don't feel safe.

Painted horse you have the best pictures! For this life long east coaster, it's amazing to see the different terrain out west! So beautiful!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

How to avoid banging your knees? - ride a thinner horse.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Heelsdown, Thanks 

Maybe you have some idea of how out of place I feel when I visit the East Coast. No mountains to take landmarks off, can't see the vistas for the nearby forest.

It's easy to take impressive photos when the scenry is awe inspiring.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Heelsdown, Leading a trail ride of a mixed group of riders, some good, some inexperienced is very much a skilled art. The leader has to recognise the capability of not only the riders but also has to be able to control the horses which should all follow the leader's horse.

The aim is to get all of the group out, and all of the group back - unharmed. No easy task especially on upland terrain. 

It is amusing sometimes to watch an experienced city dwelling rider come to realise that controlling a spirited adrenalated horse in open countryside calls for more than sitting prettily in an upright posture. But at least the visitors get to see some beautiful countryside and feel a powerful horse between their thighs. They are never quite the same again,


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

PaintedHorse that is really impressive. There are beautiful places here and smaller mountains but the east coast mountains can't compare to the west coast in size. 
Do you guys follow trails? Because it looks like you are kind of just doing your thing not really following a trail.

Barry- I've told my trainer that she earns every penny on the trails! She's really experienced and very good with matching horses to riders and then matching riders to the trail ride. I totally trust her. 

Oh and I've been meaning to ask...where does Dobbin come from? I thought maybe it was a horse's name but I've seen a few people use it. What is a Dobbin?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Heelsdown said:


> Oh and I've been meaning to ask...where does Dobbin come from? I thought maybe it was a horse's name but I've seen a few people use it. What is a Dobbin?


Dobbin is just a generic horse name. Like Nelly or something. There are even horse cookies made by Purina called "Dobbin's Delights." 

Can I post some pretty trail pictures too?

These are from one of my favorite spots in Arizona's White Mountains. To keep on topic, in the first photo I am leg-yielding my mare over for our photo op. :lol:

Other places we ride are completely off-trail and bushwhacking.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Thank you! I had no idea. I've never seen the Dobbin's Delight treats. I'll have to look for them. I always give my lesson horse Willie Muffins.

wow it looks gorgeous where you ride too! Are those birch trees? It looks like a calendar. I know Arizona has many terrains. I have some family who moved there but I've never been. They live around Scottsdale and it looks very brown. Very pretty but not green like your pictures.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Heelsdown said:


> Thank you! I had no idea. I've never seen the Dobbin's Delight treats. I'll have to look for them. I always give my lesson horse Willie Muffins.
> 
> wow it looks gorgeous where you ride too! Are those birch trees? It looks like a calendar. I know Arizona has many terrains. I have some family who moved there but I've never been. They live around Scottsdale and it looks very brown. Very pretty but not green like your pictures.


We are in north-eastern Arizona. Out of the desert and in the mountains.  The trees are aspens.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Painted Horse have you thought about setting up a guided ride business?

I know I'd pay up.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

The use of the word *'Dobbin*' - implies in English English, that the horse is placid
and walks along without impulsion. It is the sort of horse fit to carry novices 
but which makes a boring ride for an experienced rider.

It is not a term of abuse, but neither is it a compliment.


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## Cintillate (Jan 8, 2012)

Neck reining. Sometimes just a bit of pressure of one rein on the neck will make the horse go sideways, forward diagonally away from the tree, you don't really have to do anything else with your legs or body, just the pressure from the rein on the neck. That's just how I usually do it if there is space. I run into a lot of trees here so might be that my horses just expect to turn away from it. Sometimes I lean away and they follow my weight.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Cintillate said:


> Neck reining.


That might work if the horse understands it. But not all do. Mine does not, same as most horses that have been trained only on english (direct and indirect rein) cues.

The most universal approach is for the horse to move away from leg pressure, usually applied just behind the girth/cinch.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

We call them Quaking Aspen or Quakies for short, They are a member of the Popular family of trees. They are usually found in the Sub Alpine zones of the Mountains. Meaning usually the 6,000 to 9,000 foot elevations.

They are considered one of the Largest living organizms on earth. Since they spread by roots sending up shoots. Even if the tree above ground dies, The root mass stays alive and generates new growth. If you look at a mountainside covered in Quaking Aspen, you are looking at one organizm because all the trees will be connected by the same root mass. There is a forest near Strawberry Utah that is dated to be 80,000 years old.

We often have Spruce and Pines on the North faces where the shade protects the moisture in the soil, Quakies typically grow on the sunner South and South East faces of the mountains. Since the trees share the root mass, they encroach into drier areas where the sun would bake out the moisture and prevent Spruce trees from growing. Quakies like sunlight and don't do well in shadded areas.

They are a favorite habitat for Deer and Elk. A favored food for Beaver. They are a soft wood that doesn't burn well, So we usually don't use it for firewood. The bark has a interesting quality to scare and turn black, against the remaining white truck as it heals from injury, So it has been a favorite tree for people to carve the initials in over the years. Riding thru an aspen forest, You will for sure see peoples names and dates carved into the trees. A favorite of mine is the note on a tree of a "Bear Killed here April 1928"

Spring ride thru the quakies before they leaf out









A June ride as the leaves mature









They turn a beautiful yellow or orange in the fall

















Mildot, Come on out. I can't make a living guiding, but am happy to share the scenry


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> We are in north-eastern Arizona. Out of the desert and in the mountains.  The trees are aspens.


ahh aspens. They are beautiful. Funny how NE Arizona is so different from what you think of when you hear AZ. So pretty.


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

mildot said:


> That might work if the horse understands it. But not all do. Mine does not, same as most horses that have been trained only on english (direct and indirect rein) cues.
> 
> The most universal approach is for the horse to move away from leg pressure, usually applied just behind the girth/cinch.



I'm actually finding that direct reining is easier. I would like to get better at neck reining because I think it will be good for trail riding to have one hand free. 
But I definitely will put my leg more behind the girth for pressure. I know I wasn't doing that. I was keeping my foot straight down from my knee and putting pressure and I don't think he felt it enough. 

Painted horse thanks for the info on the Aspens. They really are gorgeous. I'd love to take a guided tour through the western landscape like that. It looks similar to Trailhorserider's pictures. Is your part of Utah close to her part of AZ?

I totally envy the fact that you guys don't get much humidity, do you? To have all that beauty and low humidity through the year makes me a little green with jealousy.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Heelsdown,
It is not just your hands on the reins, nor even the reins on the horse's neck,
try wiggling your butt a bit - on the right side if you are turning right.

Remember that Stacey Westfall woman didn't have any reins or even a saddle - at most all she had a handful of mane - but that was enough to say 'turn right kuchy face' and that's what the horse used to do.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Heelsdown said:


> Painted horse thanks for the info on the Aspens. They really are gorgeous. I'd love to take a guided tour through the western landscape like that. It looks similar to Trailhorserider's pictures. Is your part of Utah close to her part of AZ?
> 
> I totally envy the fact that you guys don't get much humidity, do you? To have all that beauty and low humidity through the year makes me a little green with jealousy.


 
My home is 325 miles north of the Utah/Arizona state line. It's a 5-6 hour drive across Utah to enter into Arizona. As I mentioned Quakies are more dependant on Elevation, not Latitude. So anyplace you get above 6,000 foot elevation you will find them in all the western states. From Arizona to Montana.

And you are correct, we have very low humidity. And summer time, The hotter it gets, the drier. When we see high 90s in July we are 7-15% humidity. And even during a wonderful 80 days we are usually just 30-40%. Today we are 50°F and 38% humidity.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Heelsdown said:


> I'm actually finding that direct reining is easier. I would like to get better at neck reining because I think it will be good for trail riding to have one hand free.


The way I ride one handed is I run both reins through one hand and let that hand sit horizontally above the withers.

If I want to give a right rein cue, I rotate my hand clockwise (when looking from above). That pulls on the right rein (right side of my hand rotates back) and releases the left an equal amount (they are on the same hand).


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## Heelsdown (Jun 5, 2011)

Mildot, I'm going to try that next time we go out. I had to think about it for a second but I get what you are saying about a clockwise turn. 

Barry yes my trainer mentioned moving your butt. Sometimes I just have a hard time thinking about my butt, legs and hands and getting the right movement with all of them at the same time. I can do it on good terrain. It's when things get a little rougher that it's harder, lol. 

Paintedhorse thanks for the info. So the Aspens like the higher elevation. No wonder we don't see them here. We have birch trees that are white but the Aspens are prettier I think. 
Oh to have low humidity all year sounds like Heaven! You live on the east coast your whole life and it's easy to assume that everybody has muggy days and mosquitoes all summer. You west coasters must come on the east coast and feel like you're breathing through a wet towel!


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

Mildot, Since you want to come riding out west. I'm starting to plan my springtime rides. (getting a bad case of cabin fever now) I like exploring the Red Rock country of Southern Utah in the spring. Might go down and join these folks for a ride just to learn some new trails. These guys are a little excessive in the obsticles, ( at least on their videos) If there is an easy way around, I don't ask my horses to drop over the tough spots. But sometimes there is no easy way around





 
Usually not worried about banging knees into trees but rather looking out for rocks


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

You guys are as crazy as eventers LOL


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

When it comes to avoiding banging knees on trees - part of the "trick" is just learning to plan your route and anticipate your horse's movement. I know some stinker-brained horses that intentionally scrape their riders against every tree and low-hanging branch. 

It makes for a long, irritating trail ride with a group of people when one of them is constantly getting bumped into stuff. . .especially when they are the _only _one in the group having that problem, and the horse they're riding is no wider than any other horse.

Many of the local trails in this area have some serious thorn and honeysuckle overgrowth, and I do have my old schooling chaps from my English arena-riding days that come in VERY handy for that type of riding. They won't stop a bruise if you have a hard knock into a tree trunk, but they do keep the thorny stuff from tearing my jeans. 

As far as speed on trails, my black TWH is a nimble little thing. He will gait and canter through the trees without missing a beat and without putting my knees in any danger. The reins may be used to point the direction I want him to go, but my legs are what I use to be sure that the rest of his body is following. 

We save "dog-walk" speed for those sections of trail where I want my horse to really focus on where he is placing his feet (like descending a slope with a lot of smooth, flat rock or large round rocks) or if it's very muddy or slick (which it almost always is on the trails in this part of Ohio).


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Heelsdown said:


> Last week we were out on a trail that wasn't much of a trail. The regular trail was horribly muddy and flooded in spots so we did a trail that wasn't all that blazed.
> 
> In some spots the trees were a couple of inches away on each side of me and I kept bumping them, but thankfully not that hard.
> 
> ...


1. Never get your horse and yourself between two trees (or rocks) that you know you can't fit thru. Even if the "trail" is muddy, find another, more exciting by-pass that nobody's been on yet.

If the rider is about to get skinned by a tree, someone please tell me what's wrong with very quickly getting your foot out of the stirrup, pulling your knee up and bending your leg?

If a low hanging branch is involved --- I have owned seven Keeper Horses in my lifetime and schooled a lot more on the trails. There isn't one of them that didn't (or doesn't) know to put their head down when I gently press on the top of their neck. If the branch is really low, I will lay down on the side of the horse and under we go.

2. My apologies to the proper rider but I am sorry -- "Heels down, back straight, shoulders square" goes right out the window on a trail unless you're hacking down a horse interstate, a/k/a some Metro park with exquistely groomed trails.

Smelling the roses and staying on the horse while only looking reasonably professional is the name of the game.

3. All my horses neck rein - with just a flick of a pinky finger. They know leg cues and seat cues to negotiate around tight tree turns or thru rocks that most people wouldn't walk their dogs thru.

If your hands are getting in your own way, put a mitten on one hand so you can't use two hands as easily. My knee-jerk reply was really going to be tape one hand behind your back in the arena or roundpen until you've got neck reining with one hand down pat but, the more timid folks might find that a bit extreme - lol lol

All my horses (and the folks I ride with) got all their schooling out on the trail - there are some things in trail riding life that neither the rider nor the horse are going to learn on a lunge line in a round pen.

I have taken horses that weren't even sure what "whoa, go or back" meant and put them on the tail end of an organized weekend ride. By Sunday night they were pros at knowing what needed to be done.

Someone came to buy a saddle from me; he was an experienced rider so I let him ride the horse the saddle fit. He could not believe how quick and responsive Joker was to the reins. Wanted to know what training methods were used on Joker.

I quietly commented the folks I bought him from train exactly like I do -- get them in the woods and have at it.

Horse should know "whoa, go, back up" and some neck reining. For my part if they're green on all that stuff, that's ok, I'll teach them on the trail. I am not a fan of "plow driving" unless I have a team hitched.

All a horse is needs to have down pat are those three things to get started trail riding. While the rest is up to the rider, it does do a world of good if one has the privlege of taking a very seasoned trail horse AND rider along to make the green horse more comfortable and willing


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

The concept of using reins to drive a horse is foreign to me. My legs and my shoulders do the driving. My hands do the fine tuning.

And for the record, I do ride in wooded trails with narrow sections in addition to arenas.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

mildot said:


> The concept of using reins to drive a horse is foreign to me. My hands do the fine tuning.
> 
> And for the record, I do ride in wooded trails with narrow sections in addition to arenas.


If your hands do the fine tuning, you are using your reins to tell the horse to move a little bit this way or that way. I know a lot of die hard trail riders that go out in the wilderness and make their own trails. I have never seen any of them direct rein a horse. All their horses have been fine tuned in the art of neck reining and to respond "five seconds ago" if there's a reason for it. Sometimes that reason can be laying 30 feet ahead on the trail, shaking its rattles at you; it's pretty important for your horse to be a "Reiner" in those critical moments of escape:shock:

If you have ridden your horse in areas where it literally has to climb a rock or literally has had to sit on its butt and "walk" itself downhill, then dig so hard to get up the other side, you hope the breast strap keeping the saddle in place holds, then I tip my hat to you

I rode bareback when I did all that and I still ride bareback. I have no idea if I use shoulder cues because I've been at it for so long. I know my neck reining horses perform the task at hand with very little visible interference from me. I've got one hand free to do nothing, tap the horse's butt if need be, or eat after we survived all that sliding and digging.

At least they used to respond that way. My horses are 17, 18, 24, & 26. We are retired from all that stuff and have gotten lazy and sloppy; we've earned that right


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Neck reining is neither faster nor superior to direct and indirect reining. It's just different.


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