# My horse has intact reproductive organs - should I breed?



## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Sadly, there are too many fools out there breeding to brag and say they own a stud. No showing at actual shows (play days really don't count for much lol) no doing anything with said horse, except throwing them in together and then doing nothing with the resulting foals.

Toooo many people breeding for ridiculous reasons.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

There is money in horses, I know I put it there.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Waited too long to edit my post, but if you're picking up your specific breed for cheap, that should be a huge warning sign to you. The equine market is in the tank. How on earth do you think you're going to make ANY money off breeding/selling when people are giving away horses left and right?


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## Cruiser (Aug 28, 2011)

Got to love the people that say, don't breed don't breed, and they have a breeding thread waiting for pookie to foal. (this isn't directed at anyone)


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

rookie said:


> There is money in horses, I know I put it there.


Yeah my horses ate mine 

There's not money in the horse business, but there is money in the horse services and supplies business - like training, feed, tack, etc. Nothing that actually requires having horses lol.

I've always wanted to have a horse business doing something I loved. I learned two important lessons that will prevent me from ever going there.

1) Don't combine pleasure and business. Be passionate about your job, but, as soon as you take the thing you're passionate about and do for pleasure and combine it with expecting to make money from it, it's often no longer pleasurable.

2) The odds of you being able to make a living off a horse business are slim to none. You'll probably have to work another job, often full time. Personally, I think I'll spend 8 ours per day at my career that I have worked hard for, then come home and enjoy my horses because I can cover their expenses doing my day job that I love and am passionate about - but I still have my pleasure and my hobby that I don't have to combine with work, too.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Oh and, that super expensive vet bill you just paid to your vet who's super rich? Yeah, a good portion of that went to pay off those student loans.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

There is money in horses, I put there !! too cute.. yep my money is in my horses also !! does not mean I will ever get the money back ! lol 
Got a stallion .. do the world a favor geld it. Got a mare.. leave her alone, she does not need to have a foal. Same dumb ideals for dogs.. gotta let the female have a litter to be a good dog.. what a bunch of poop !


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Add in people breeding stallions and mares when they are two... Just because they have functioning reproductive tracks does NOT mean they should be reproducing or because ZMOG BLACK (or whatever color they are hooked on at the moment)...


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Add in people breeding stallions and mares when they are two... Just because they have functioning reproductive tracks does NOT mean they should be reproducing or because ZMOG BLACK (or whatever color they are hooked on at the moment)...


I agree. Why not let them fully mature, and then take them to your specific breed shows, and show them? Then, and only then, after you've made your name then breed them.


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## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

I gave advice to some who needed to measure for a blanket for the stallion. He needs a blanket because he is in a paddock with no shelter because he cannot run in with the herd. It would be cheaper just to geld him and toss him out with the other horses, IMO. They don't breed him, and he sits in his paddock all day for a majority of the year. I'm fairly sure he's grade, and not even impressive to look at. (I've seen him before, and the fact I don't vividly remember anything about him generally means there was nothing to remember.)

Some people, I swear. They don't breed him, but they won't cut him. Only times he gets mares is when he breaks the fence down. A few years ago he even covered an old mare who died in result of the pregnancy. The horses are in decent shape and have food and water, and ample shelter (aside from the stud) but I think a little more responsibility is in order.

I have a foal on the way, but the mare was already bred before I got her, and she is getting the care that she needs, not being left in the boonies to fend for herself.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Another irk, a stallion owner who brings drama into everything, and a stud owner who breeds everything with a uterus just cause..no goals, no training, can't catch their horses, every stud 'ad' picture is the horse just running lose in the field. Not impressive. Show me studlykins under saddle, with minimal gadgets and a great start under his belt. THAT is a great start.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

*Another way to see it*

I'll sit on the other side of the fence here for a moment. :twisted:

_*This statement is not to say I don't agree with the original post to a degree*_. 

However, I will say the following; it IS the professional type breeders who have made some big dollars that have continued to breed HYPP positive horses. Halter horses that look like some kind of ... I don't even know what. It IS the breeders that have reduced the Morgan to an Arab wannabe and it IS the breeders that have turned the Arabian into some type of giraffe looking very small muzzled thing I don't even recognize. Do they do this because that's what "wins" and brings them money? To a degree I believe, yes. But I do think as a "breeder" you should take some responsibility by refusing to breed according to what wins but maintain your ethics by breeding according to the health and well being of the breed of your choice.

Keeping this in mind, do we really have a right to be so judgemental? Food for thought anyway. Take it how you will.  Do keep in mind this is only my take and opinion on things and as well all know, everyone has one.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

When we gelded my boy Djinn I never changed his registration papers from "Stallion" to "Gelding." Stallion just sounds so much more impressive... Since I never showed him, I figured nobody would care, and nobody did.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

Gah it really get me when people say "I want to experience having a foal" 
Its why I have one of my horses, the previous owner wanted that. They were irresponsible and the filly had to suffer. She has a chunk of bone missing in her face and only one eye due to an accident in a over crowded field. She was taken from her mother around one month old due to the injury, her socialization skills with other horses was terrible.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

BBBCrone said:


> I'll sit on the other side of the fence here for a moment. :twisted:
> 
> _*This statement is not to say I don't agree with the original post to a degree*_.
> 
> ...


Actually, I completely agree with you. to me, there are two main categories of people who just need to stop -backyard breeders and breeders that "know what they're doing", but continue to breed horses that don't help the breed. Hence the comment that the breeding should be left to those dedicated to bettering the world of horses and know what, how, and why they're breeding to achieve that. And, sometimes, that includes not breeding. For instance, a friend of mine who successfully bred Arabians for years, but gelded her stud when the economy crashed for both her and the horse's sake. She cried about it for weeks, but it was the right thing to do. Not only would it have not been good for her finances to keep producing horses, but there were no homes for them our any other horse to go to.

I figure it's easier to dissuade the people who don't have their livelihood invested in breeding horses that shouldn't be bred.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I hate the "improve the breed" crap.. howabout some keep the breed the way it is ? Wanna make a new horse ? call it something else. Pro breeders concerned with shows are gonna breed to win. If they pick ethics they will go broke. They breed HYPP positive horses because that gene is linked to the roidhead freak look that wins halter shows. Course finaly a bit of lip service to the problem.
I take exception to the "Only breed if its wins at a show" stuff. the heck with Shows, I see nothing going on at shows that places emphasis on things I find important on a horse. BBBCrone, brought up some good points, shows are one person or group deciding what a horse should be and are creating new horses that dont do what the breed was originally meant for. 
Seems we have peopel here who think the only reason you should possibly own a horse is to take it to a show. Well some of us actually ride our horses, even if people arnt looking.

But until the glut of horses dries up, I dont see the point of breeding much of anything. Show or not.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

This is where I've purposely left "improving the breed" vague because people have different opinions of what that means. I agree, Joe, that horses should be ridable and useful, not just win at shows. I think it's sad when there's such a disconnect between what's considered "show" traits and whats are actually "useful" traits - isn't the whole point of competition to show what's best, not what's most exotic?

"Improving the breed" to me means breeding out the harmful traits and genetics like HYPP. It means to strengthen a horse and make it more useful for what it's meant to do, like quarter horses being bred for a powerful and agile body that has a lower center of gravity, which makes them more able to get low and work cows. It means breeding better bone and stronger backs. In every case, it means breeding horses together that will make up for one another's faults both physically and mentally.

Unfortunately, the show world has forgotten what actually makes a good horse, it seems. Which is why I don't want to show anymore and love endurance. I can freaking ride a horse, take care of it, and it can do what it was meant to do and do it without any sort of drugs or alterations. Finally, a type of competition that rewards horses and riders for something useful.

For those of you who do show, and do it with horses that can actually DO something and do it well without having to be enthralled in gadgets and pumped full of drugs, more power to you. I just couldn't stand all those people who were willing to do anything for a ribbon.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Oh theres money in the horse buisness just ask the kill buyers with the US market opening back up soon they'll be making even more buying upp all these unwanted horses up cheap putting some fat on them then haul them across the borders to feed lots and hold your hand out for your cshthose guys dont have to work a full time job because they make plenty in the horse buisness


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

^good point


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

In reality once the slaughter market opens back up here there will be a place to unload all the unwanted horses once this happens imo the market will go back up the closing of the US slaughter is imo what crashed the horse market. Those who breed responsibly shouldnt be punished because they still have a market for their horses and most of your big time breeders have cut own on their breeding so in the future when we thin out all these unwanted train wreck bred horses we will have a shortage of the good ones


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

OP - great comments
I cant figure out why its taking some people so long to figure out that the horse market is dead in the water unless you have something thats perfect, proven and winning ribbons its hard to give away never mind sell
Way too many amateurs breeding from poor quality stock and then having no clue as to how to care for them and train them


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

It's not only 'big' breeders. It's idiot breeders with no discernible breed goals. it's the 'ermagerd' I have a black stud!!!' and the 'ermagerd my ponehs have a working uterus' and the people who buy a stud just to brag about it, or the ones who buy a horse with one good ancestor 5 or 6 generations back, barely on the paper, who are also to blame. We can see how many 'big' breeders pump out horses, I still worry about the morons breeding willy nilly with NO market, the people picking up cheap horses and breeding them just because they think they'll suddenly have a market (which they wont) We have NO clue, how many small time idiot breeders are pumping out horses, THAT scares me worse than the big breeders.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

MsBHavin said:


> It's not only 'big' breeders. It's idiot breeders with no discernible breed goals. it's the 'ermagerd' I have a black stud!!!' and the 'ermagerd my ponehs have a working uterus' and the people who buy a stud just to brag about it, or the ones who buy a horse with one good ancestor 5 or 6 generations back, barely on the paper, who are also to blame. We can see how many 'big' breeders pump out horses, I still worry about the morons breeding willy nilly with NO market, the people picking up cheap horses and breeding them just because they think they'll suddenly have a market (which they wont) We have NO clue, how many small time idiot breeders are pumping out horses, THAT scares me worse than the big breeders.


 I agree I see so many here in Kentucky alone we have the TB industry and a decent QH and saddlebred breeders then you take these inbreds breeding those jug headed conformational train wrecks because it might gait and if it dont we'll torture it until it does nothing is registered and those that are shouldnt be its crazy hell they shouldnt be reproducing themselves let alone horses.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> In reality once the slaughter market opens back up here there will be a place to unload all the unwanted horses once this happens imo the market will go back up the closing of the US slaughter is imo what crashed the horse market. Those who breed responsibly shouldnt be punished because they still have a market for their horses and most of your big time breeders have cut own on their breeding so in the future when we thin out all these unwanted train wreck bred horses we will have a shortage of the good ones


If you are a good breeder IMO then with or without slaughter you should be fine. Less people are spending money on horses because for most of us they are a hobby not something we absolutely need. Our economy is low so every thing is suffering. All slaughter does is gives irresponsible owners a place to dump their horses.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

If only we were gods and could stop all the over breeding of all animals(including us). It would fix so much. I can dream right?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

A good sound breeding operation that focuses on quality not quantitiy will always have a market for their foals.
.I am willing to keep a foal for as long as I need to find it a good home.
My family has for generations earned a good reputation for breeding good quality horses. We deal honestly with our buyers.
I also do not inflate the price of the horse and will only budge a little on the price.
I do not breed every mare I own each year.. they are chosen for a purpose and bred accordingly. I already have buyers interested in the 3 foals that I am expecting this year.
The market will improve and those that have earned a good reputation should do well.
the prolonged drought that has affected the Southwest has also forced many owners to curtail their breeding operations.
Once we revover form this natural disaster those breeders will buy more bloodstock to replace the ones sold due to lack of grazing. Shalom


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Speaking of breeders who breed high quality horses still being able to breed and make money - another acquaintance of mine owns a very well known breeding operation for endurance Arabians. I took a look at her horses when I was trying to find an endurance horse, and her unbroken babies were 2-3x the cost of any of the good and at least green broke horses I was looking at. Thing is, she was almost sold out of that year's foals, too. Many of her stock could justifiably be foundation sires and broodmares for future breeders. Her horses have a reputation, and riders from all across the country (and even from other countries) recognize her quality and pay big bucks to get it. Sure things have been tighter during this crappy economy, especially in the horse world, but she still manages to make a decent income because she's built herself up breeding only the best for over half a century. Every pairing is made with extreme attention to detail and decades of knowledge. There is no "I wonder what the foal will be like" - she knows what she's going to get because she paired the sire and dam for something very specific and knows the traits that each tend to produce. And the win records of her horses prove she's got something great and rare with her program.

That is a breeder I admire, and her horses will always have homes.

(By the way, she HATES halter Arabs - they're not good for anything as far as she's concerned!)


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Speaking of idiots breeding I have a friend with a well known reining stallion he won the reining worlds triple crown this yr well she has a few of his babies on the ground all 3 she hadnt offered for sale but someone messaged her thru facebook wanting info on the foals they were wanting to purchase one then after a few days they decided they didnt like the bald faces on the foals so they wanted to breed their mare to her stallion um the foals bald faces came from daddy whom has the prettiest bald face and ya cant miss it lol


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## anniegirl (Oct 7, 2012)

Geeze...you guys are sucking the wind out of my excitement...LOL...some good points made tho...I purchased my mare already bred...I knew there was a chance she was...but it wasnt confirmed until 4 months later...Im just small potatoes on a small family farm and plan to raise the foal for life, along with my small herd of 3...and if its a colt...he will be gelded...and if its a filly...she will be left alone...and the mother will not be rebred....I do think there is an outrageous amount of horses already out there with no hope of being loved and cared for by the same heart for life....no matter what the bloodlines...points...etc are...and its a **** shame...so I do believe it is our responsability as horse owners to make sure that we know what we are getting into...and can commit to the consequences of our decisions....so ya...Im happy with my decision...and am committed...therefore...Im pumped!!!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

anniegirl - the world needs more people like you willing to be responsible for someone else's mistake  That foal sounds like a lucky one!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

LuvmyperlinoQH please tell me you are joking. I know you arent but just tell me you are so that I can once again believe that humans are not THAT stupid. My faith in humanity is seriously damaged. LOL Shalom


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> LuvmyperlinoQH please tell me you are joking. I know you arent but just tell me you are so that I can once again believe that humans are not THAT stupid. My faith in humanity is seriously damaged. LOL Shalom


 
I wish I was but it's true **** people amaze me everyday with how stupid they truley are... of course working at Great Clips I see more than most lol


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

DB refer to my signature lol I feel that applies to most situations where people are involved. It even applies to small groups and single people :lol:


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Hey being a therapist I have heard some very alarming things concerning what people think and do. Just shake my head most of the time and wish I could physically thump them on the back of the head and say "WAKE UP YOU IDIOT".. No instead I have to be nice and say it with kindness. LOL
At least you get a visual with your job. 
Breeding any horse requires research and careful planning.
I do not like or use the term 'backyard breeder" but as others have posted here and on other threads if you ask should you breed before you answer why , its probably best you refrain. Shalom


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

DB you don't need an MT do you? :lol: Two of the main docs I type for work with mental health. I so want to smack some of the people I hear about sometimes.  

It's amazing though the things people will say to justify what they want.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Hey being a therapist I have heard some very alarming things concerning what people think and do. Just shake my head most of the time and wish I could physically thump them on the back of the head and say "WAKE UP YOU IDIOT".. No instead I have to be nice and say it with kindness. LOL
> At least you get a visual with your job.
> Breeding any horse requires research and careful planning.
> I do not like or use the term 'backyard breeder" but as others have posted here and on other threads if you ask should you breed before you answer why , its probably best you refrain. Shalom


 
You know how hard it is to stand behind them with a comb in my hand and not whap them with it .


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

Sure, after you visit a slaughter house. You'll get to see horses with pedigrees out the wazoo awaiting a gruesome death. Stakes winners, champion jumpers and reiners and on a good day mares with suckling foals. The horse industry definitely needs your amazing horse's get. Geez!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

66Domino said:


> Sure, after you visit a slaughter house. You'll get to see horses with pedigrees out the wazoo awaiting a gruesome death. Stakes winners, champion jumpers and reiners and on a good day mares with suckling foals. The horse industry definitely needs your amazing horse's get. Geez!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I much rather them die fast in a slaughter house than stand in a field for a month or so starving to death.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I wouldn't, death is not always fast or painless in the slaughter house or the long cramped ride up there.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

MsBHavin said:


> I wouldn't, death is not always fast or painless in the slaughter house or the long cramped ride up there.


 
Once the US ones reopen there are plans for one in Tenn. Mo and New Mexico that will make the trips shorter. I have seen them straved to death IMO that is the cruelest way for them to go thats a very painful way to be until your body finally gives out.Now some kill buyers/ haulers are horrid people most are not why because if its dead or very injured when it gets there thats money lost and they are all in it for the money.


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I much rather them die fast in a slaughter house than stand in a field for a month or so starving to death.


Luv, read the federal stats. USDA considered it acceptable if failure rate in kill chute was 33 percent. One-third of horses are gutted live. Sounds quick and humane to me. (Not!) Of course there's always the Mexico route or the latest and greatest - oil tankers where they're slaughtered off shore and meat shipped overseas.

If you want to make a difference in this mess advocate licensing of breeders and tighter control over the industries that produce the highest number of horses; thoroughbred and quarter horse. It would also be a plus if the authorities began looking at all animal abuse as criminal. A slap on the wrist does nothing to an industry driven more by money than concern for the animal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think there are improvements that need to be made to the slaughter industry and it needs to be regulated. I do find a 30% rate a bit high; however, starvation is a horrible death. Then again, I have also seen some horses with colic where euthanasia was a release for them. 

I also consider it strange how medications that are not tolerated in beef within a certain level or at all are routinely used in horses. Ie. in cattle banamine has a 90 day with hold. I don't know that the same applies for horses. We inject a whole lot of weird stuff into horses from joint supplements to vaccinations to pain medications or ulcer meds. Which is one of the reasons I think the industry must be regulated.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

I dont think you are looking at the BIG picture there will still be starvation and neglect at the same rate! Those people starving their horses ARE NOT doing it because they can not send them to slaughter they ARE doing it because they are neglectful! If they weren't neglectful they would get off their butts and send them to auction. 

The only ones going to gain anything from slaughter are the kill buyers and slaughter houses. Your horses(if you are a rep. breeder) are not going to go up in price much, MEAT horses will though and rescues and other organizations will be paying more to get them out of the kill pens. 

Slaughter will never be the answer to the problem of over breeding, it is only a band-aid to cover it up


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

66Domino said:


> Luv, read the federal stats. USDA considered it acceptable if failure rate in kill chute was 33 percent. One-third of horses are gutted live. Sounds quick and humane to me. (Not!) Of course there's always the Mexico route or the latest and greatest - oil tankers where they're slaughtered off shore and meat shipped overseas.
> 
> If you want to make a difference in this mess advocate licensing of breeders and tighter control over the industries that produce the highest number of horses; thoroughbred and quarter horse. It would also be a plus if the authorities began looking at all animal abuse as criminal. A slap on the wrist does nothing to an industry driven more by money than concern for the animal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
You AR people kill me really you do with your logic the horses who go to Mexico (they are nasty and anything but humane when they kill them )they are shipped there because a bunch of AR people got together and shut down our plants where they were inspected by USDA employees they have now put in higher standards and emplemented a new shoot to where they are in a padded stall where they cannot move and death is more swift and instantaneous The 33 percent were ones that moved when the bolt was shot. We can stop the future breeding but what does that do for the huge numbers of unwanted horses on the ground now? Rescues are full and heck needing rescued them selves the economy is not in a very good way the people who are still able to afford their horses dont have the extra funds to take in some unwanted abused starved horse thats going to cost a ton to get back to a healthy state if it ever will to maybe end up being a pasture pet yea most arent going to do it because they cant .There has to be an outlet for whats on the ground now.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

rookie said:


> I think there are improvements that need to be made to the slaughter industry and it needs to be regulated. I do find a 30% rate a bit high; however, starvation is a horrible death. Then again, I have also seen some horses with colic where euthanasia was a release for them.
> 
> I also consider it strange how medications that are not tolerated in beef within a certain level or at all are routinely used in horses. Ie. in cattle banamine has a 90 day with hold. I don't know that the same applies for horses. We inject a whole lot of weird stuff into horses from joint supplements to vaccinations to pain medications or ulcer meds. Which is one of the reasons I think the industry must be regulated.


In the US they do have holding pens for the drug withdrawl times and I see cattle buyers in sale barns buying for slaughter and yall would be appaulled at what they buy to turn into hamburgers and lunchmeat.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

chubbypony said:


> I dont think you are looking at the BIG picture there will still be starvation and neglect at the same rate! Those people starving their horses ARE NOT doing it because they can not send them to slaughter they ARE doing it because they are neglectful! If they weren't neglectful they would get off their butts and send them to auction.
> 
> The only ones going to gain anything from slaughter are the kill buyers and slaughter houses. Your horses(if you are a rep. breeder) are not going to go up in price much, MEAT horses will though and rescues and other organizations will be paying more to get them out of the kill pens.
> 
> Slaughter will never be the answer to the problem of over breeding, it is only a band-aid to cover it up


 
The people starving them will be able to unload them alot easier. Right now as it stands you cannot even take horses to most salebarns because people are abandoning them when the US houses were open there was never a problem with excess unwanted horses and as for raising prices on rescues buying them a kill buyer is not going to bid up a horse knowing full well when he goes to the feed lot he's not going to recoup double of what he purchased said horse for so that theory is debunked easily I just believe slaughter is a necassary evil I am pro slaughter because I have seen far to many horses in bad situations that really would have been better off in a feedlot.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

For the record I have rescued rehabbed over 8 horses on my own out of my own pocket and rehomed them. My heart horse Dusty, I bought him from a local kill buyer paid alot for him a grade older gelding but he is dead broke and gentle so he was worth more to sell as a riding horse then he was going to the feedlot. My latest rescue is a foal well shes now a yearling her mother was hide on bones the foal pretty close to that I took the foal gave them 10 round bales of hay for her so that they could feed the mare the foal had a halter in grown in her face and was wild as all get out now she is a docile sweet in your pocket baby and very well mannered I shudder to think how many arent as fortunate as Frost.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> In the US they do have holding pens for the drug withdrawl times and I see cattle buyers in sale barns buying for slaughter and yall would be appaulled at what they buy to turn into hamburgers and lunchmeat.


Your going way off topic with cows my dear. The meat market in its self is a crime!


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> The people starving them will be able to unload them alot easier. Right now as it stands you cannot even take horses to most salebarns because people are abandoning them


What do you mean? They can still take them there. People who starve their horse NOW and WHEN the slaughter houses were open NEVER send them there and NEVER will they are not even responsible enough to feed them let alone bring them to a sales barn. They just done care. 

when the US houses were open there was never a problem with excess unwanted horses [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Yes there has always been a problem. It was not as bad but its still happened. Our economy then was not in the shape it is now and it has always been just a hobby to most people not something to profit from. 

as for raising prices on rescues buying them a kill buyer is not going to bid up a horse knowing full well when he goes to the feed lot he's not going to recoup double of what he purchased said horse for so that theory is debunked easily I just believe slaughter is a necassary evil I am pro slaughter because I have seen far to many horses in bad situations that really would have been better off in a feedlot.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
You didnt report those horses in bad situations? I dont care if you are pro slaughter, pro choice, pro gay rights! Slaughter is a way for irresponsible owners to get out of their responsibility. YES Ive seen it plenty of times where the kill buyer over bids a good home or rescue I live on the east coast where we have two of the biggest slaughter auctions Sugar Creek and New Holland. Maybe where you live they dont have auctions like this this but in the auctions around me the kill buyers buys healthy fat horses. NOT starved or neglected ones. SO they are getting the horses who are more in demand not the lame skinny ones. I live close enough to Canada that they dont take any stops with a truck load of meat horses. The "cheap" horses will go up in price not the well bred in demand horses. There is no answer to it all, we need to stop breeding so much, geld more, your mare needs to prove her self, if your horse is old or lame put him or her to sleep in the arms of their owner not a bolt gun! and the list could go on and on but I dont find slaughter to be a answer to it all. I can disagree with you until you are red in the face but I dont find it productive. Instead of looking for an easy way out we need to look for a harder answer. Its going to take more time and money but if you are truely in it for the love of the animal NOT to make money off of them (true breeders know) then you will be willing to make it work without slaughter.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

A good breeder doe not want his horse to end up in a slaughter house. The good ones want to know their horse breed for trail, show ect went to a good home where it will fill its potential and the ones they breed that done they find a job for or take up enough responsibility to put them to sleep. 

The same goes for those who send dangerous horses to slaughter . Why couldnt you just PTS. I dont get why loosing a few hundred is worse then the suffering of your horse?

Luv- its wonderful that you took your own time and money to save those horses. You are a angel to them :3 I have a feeling most people on this site just want the best thing for a horse even if we agree to disagree on how to go about it.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

chubbypony said:


> Your going way off topic with cows my dear. The meat market in its self is a crime!


 
The cattle were brought up in an earlier post. Meat markets a crime? What do you eat?


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

chubbypony said:


> A good breeder doe not want his horse to end up in a slaughter house. The good ones want to know their horse breed for trail, show ect went to a good home where it will fill its potential and the ones they breed that done they find a job for or take up enough responsibility to put them to sleep.
> 
> The same goes for those who send dangerous horses to slaughter . Why couldnt you just PTS. I dont get why loosing a few hundred is worse then the suffering of your horse?
> 
> Luv- its wonderful that you took your own time and money to save those horses. You are a angel to them :3 I have a feeling most people on this site just want the best thing for a horse even if we agree to disagree on how to go about it.


 
imo a dangerous horse should be put down whether it be sent to slaughter or with a bullet there are far to many good horses with out homes to put up with a dangerous one. Cant tell ya how many halter babies end up at the sale barn with no papers but per the auctioneer they are bred to the hilt but selling as un registered and I chime in loudly but whats their HYPP status lolpeople look at me like I'm crazy because they arent very smart in the way of genetic diseases.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Now dont rush to jump up and down on my poor abused body, but all horse have some value. Meat price or above that.
if someone needs that money to feed thier other horses or a vet bill then sending an old, crippled, or unmanageable horse to slaughter might solve that problem.
I HAVE never sold a horse at a local auction and probably will not. I wont even attend one due to the horses that I have seen abused and neglected for sale . Just cant stomach seeing that kind of thing without it ruining my day or week for that matter. Shalom


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

chubbypony said:


> The meat market in its self is a crime!


LOL!

That's all. :lol:


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

I go to the salebarn to buy cattle but did buy 1 what I thought was a mini horse for my daughter he was brought in with a load of ponies from some amish farm they all looked inbred conformational hot messes skin and bones the hubby told me this week it was my turn to buy lol I think he regreted that after he seen the ponies they went for 5 to 7 bucks a head and the lil guy I picked up for 25 bucks he is the best 25 bucks I have ever spent turns out he was a weanling hackney cross he's my daughters best friend he's 3 now. This salebarn almost never has anything but cattle every great once in a while they have horses last time we went was the load of QH yearlings.


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> You AR people kill me really you do with your logic the horses who go to Mexico (they are nasty and anything but humane when they kill them )they are shipped there because a bunch of AR people got together and shut down our plants where they were inspected by USDA employees they have now put in higher standards and emplemented a new shoot to where they are in a padded stall where they cannot move and death is more swift and instantaneous The 33 percent were ones that moved when the bolt was shot. We can stop the future breeding but what does that do for the huge numbers of unwanted horses on the ground now? Rescues are full and heck needing rescued them selves the economy is not in a very good way the people who are still able to afford their horses dont have the extra funds to take in some unwanted abused starved horse thats going to cost a ton to get back to a healthy state if it ever will to maybe end up being a pasture pet yea most arent going to do it because they cant .There has to be an outlet for whats on the ground now.


Sorry the people in Arkansas upset you but I'm from Arizona (AZ). What fries my buns are people who think their backyard Quarter Horse is the next Rugged Lark or Smart Chic Olena. I see a lot of that. You know there's a huge problem when the AQHA is pro slaughter. How about we put on our big girl/boy panties and take responsibility for what we put on the ground. I sacrifice and I mean sacrifice to care for 1 horse and 2 yearlings. I feed my horses before I feed myself. They are my responsibility and I will do anything under God's sky to make sure they never go to any slaughter house. What you do with your horses, you will answer for. We're put on this earth as caretakers, not executioners.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

If you want to go by Biblical interpretation, we were put here to be good _stewards_. You are to care for your animals properly, but it says nothing about not eating them.

If you're so sure people who don't keep all their animals until they drop dead of old age will be damned to hellfire, I hope you're a vegan who grows all your own sustenance. Oh, and I hope you grow hemp and make all your own clothing, and use a bicycle to get to work as well, since animals have to die for pretty much everything we use in everyday life.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> If you want to go by Biblical interpretation, we were put here to be good _stewards_. You are to care for your animals properly, but it says nothing about not eating them.
> 
> If you're so sure people who don't keep all their animals until they drop dead of old age will be damned to hellfire, I hope you're a vegan who grows all your own sustenance. Oh, and I hope you grow hemp and make all your own clothing, and use a bicycle to get to work as well, since animals have to die for pretty much everything we use in everyday life.


God, save the plants...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

WSArabians said:


> God, save the plants...


ZOMG! The horror, the horror!!!! :rofl:


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> ZOMG! The horror, the horror!!!! :rofl:


It's atrocious, I tell you!
They get uprooted from their homes and then mashed, peeled, sliced, diced, dipped, chopped, bbq'ed, or shaved. Sometimes they are cooked, sometimes eaten raw. 
Barbaric. :shock:


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

WSArabians said:


> It's atrocious, I tell you!
> They get uprooted from their homes and then mashed, peeled, sliced, diced, dipped, chopped, bbq'ed, or shaved. Sometimes they are cooked, sometimes eaten raw.
> Barbaric. :shock:


OMG I almost died - Since this posted on a new page and I just clicked "last" I was horrified because I thought you were talking about the horses!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't think horse tartare is a 'thing', jilly. I could be wrong, though.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

66Domino said:


> How about we put on our big girl/boy panties and take responsibility for what we put on the ground.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's exactly my original point. If we could limit the number of good horses we put on the ground so that there's enough demand for at least those, then stop the breeding of anything less than absolutely extraordinary, then we wouldn't have to discuss whether neglect, auction, or slaughter is the least horrifying end. Because that's what all of them are - horrifying for all but the few who manage to find a good home before it's too late.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> I don't think horse tartare is a 'thing', jilly. I could be wrong, though.


I didn't want to know - I knew I'd missed something, but I couldn't even make it through the first line I was so horrified at horses being "uprooted from their homes and then mashed, peeled, sliced, diced...."

Last time I was on this thread, we were still talking about how slaughter isn't the most humane process, and I thought we were getting into details I just couldn't bear knowing!


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

jillybean19 said:


> OMG I almost died - Since this posted on a new page and I just clicked "last" I was horrified because I thought you were talking about the horses!


Well, they are cooked and eaten in some countries, but no, I was referring to the inhumane treatment of plants. 
Ever seen Plants Vs. Zombies? Yeah... :shock:


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

WSArabians said:


> Well, they are cooked and eaten in some countries, but no, I was referring to the inhumane treatment of plants.
> Ever seen Plants Vs. Zombies? Yeah... :shock:


Nope, never seen it... but I did figure out what you were saying after I went back through the posts I'd missed. The picture of the bell peppers was hilarious!


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

jillybean19 said:


> I didn't want to know - I knew I'd missed something, but I couldn't even make it through the first line I was so horrified at horses being "uprooted from their homes and then mashed, peeled, sliced, diced...."
> 
> Last time I was on this thread, we were still talking about how slaughter isn't the most humane process, and I thought we were getting into details I just couldn't bear knowing!



Man, I wish I coulda seen your face... LOL
:lol:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

This to me is a statement from a true breeder

Tomorrow is the big day....*********** is scheduled to be gelded. I have mixed feelings. The selfish part of me is very sad, thinking of the beautiful foals he could sire, half-siblings to my beloved ***********. The logical side of me realizes he will be much happier and that his blood lives on through his son. I keep reminding myself of the great adventures he and I will have this spring when I start riding him.

An Arab breeder, who knows that a great stallion makes an awesome gelding

Personally I wish there was some sort of test that people have to go through to breed horses, because there are far to many crazies out there, I know I think I met a lot of them when I sold my breeding stallion:twisted::twisted:

Seems to me that if you are serious about breeding you should have confirmation shots of your stock out there, not 'artistic' type shots, because that tells me nothing about how your animals are actually set up.

You should present yourself in a professional way, I personally would not be anxious to do business with people who are deluded and feel they are being stalked all over the internet. 

I don't know what the breed circuit is like down there, but up here in Saskatchewan the arab network is all kinds of crazy, I have spoken to so many nice people, trouble is I can never keep straight in my mind who doesn't talk to who, and who thinks who is crazy, unbelievable. There are a few crazies in the Haffy breeding world, but I think the Arabs have them beat hands down.

More general reproductive organ rants have already been covered, but to get my own off of my chest..

1) There is nothing morally wrong with a mare doing nothing, she doesn't have to be bred, or ridden, if I want to keep her as a pet, I will, my mare my choice.

2) If you are not a serious breeder, if you have no plans to improve the breed (whatever that means) or if you don't have the facilities to keep a stud, then geld it. There is no good reason for people to be riding studs, just because they think that it is cool. The world needs less studs not more, and I'm sorry but your grade, fugly built like a ski slope stud, with a $100 stud fee, well he is a liability, but would probably be a fantastic gelding.


------------------------------------------------------
Sigh, I need to go and lie down again, this **** bug is making me ramble, but one more thing..

I may just add to the idiots of the world, the person who sells on her perfectly nice, but elderly stallion when she gets out of breeding. It's a shame that she didn't have the courage to either geld him, or possibly euth him, and that idiot would be me


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

Speed Racer said:


> If you want to go by Biblical interpretation, we were put here to be good _stewards_. You are to care for your animals properly, but it says nothing about not eating them.
> 
> If you're so sure people who don't keep all their animals until they drop dead of old age will be damned to hellfire, I hope you're a vegan who grows all your own sustenance. Oh, and I hope you grow hemp and make all your own clothing, and use a bicycle to get to work as well, since animals have to die for pretty much everything we use in everyday life.


Using the name of God is not a biblical interpretation but i do believe it is our responsibility to take care of whatever we bring into our lives; horses, children, pets, people. These are things responsible adults do. We are concerned about the future and well being of this planet and its inhabitants. We do not agree on the slaughter issue but i wish you no ill will. My beliefs are my own and i go about making changes in ways i view effective which is to deal with the issue at the source - overbreeding. What you do with your animals is your business, as is what i do with mine. Be well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

jillybean19 said:


> That's exactly my original point. If we could limit the number of good horses we put on the ground so that there's enough demand for at least those, then stop the breeding of anything less than absolutely extraordinary, then we wouldn't have to discuss whether neglect, auction, or slaughter is the least horrifying end. Because that's what all of them are - horrifying for all but the few who manage to find a good home before it's too late.


And on that we agree. Thanks for an interesting discussion. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

WSArabians said:


> God, save the plants...


LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

jillybean19 said:


> That's exactly my original point. If we could limit the number of good horses we put on the ground so that there's enough demand for at least those, then stop the breeding of anything less than absolutely extraordinary, then we wouldn't have to discuss whether neglect, auction, or slaughter is the least horrifying end. Because that's what all of them are - horrifying for all but the few who manage to find a good home before it's too late.


Basically what you'd be doing here is making it so only the very rich could afford to have a horse. If "absolutely extraordinary" is your guideline, I'd sure hate to see the price of those!

Who gets to be judge and jury on that? Show horse breeders? A committee of sorts?

While I DO understand what you are trying to get at and I'm not saying it's wrong, it isn't in the realm of being realistic. People will do what people will do. Right, wrong or in the middle. All we can do is hold ourselves to our own set of standards.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

There is always a market for a good horse.
i agree with BBcrone if we eliminated all breeding that was not approved how many members of this forum could afford to buy a horse?
those inspections for warmbloods are great and ensure only quality horses are registered. Yet they register a type of horse not a breed.
I am not going to take my stallion spend thousands getting him fit and trained for approval at an inspection just for someone to tell me he is acceptable.
If i did his stud fee would be twice what it is and I would have to breed to more mares to recoup my investment. As it stands now i can be far more selective in who I breed him to. 
As I have posted before though I do not beleive in the statement that one should only breed to better the breed. IMO that is impossible. Shalom


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

BBBCrone said:


> Basically what you'd be doing here is making it so only the very rich could afford to have a horse. If "absolutely extraordinary" is your guideline, I'd sure hate to see the price of those!
> 
> Who gets to be judge and jury on that? Show horse breeders? A committee of sorts?
> 
> While I DO understand what you are trying to get at and I'm not saying it's wrong, it isn't in the realm of being realistic. People will do what people will do. Right, wrong or in the middle. All we can do is hold ourselves to our own set of standards.


You understand that horses are so cheap at the moment because there is a complete glut, and it's either sell them cheap or sell them to the meat man? This low price that you seem to like is the result of years of people breeding for the "common man" with no care about the quality of the horse. It is the result of years of excess horses, and the "easy" option of auctioning the horse. It is the result of so many good horses not finding a home that they are sold based on the price per pound.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Uhhhh ... okay. No idea where that came from. I didn't say a thing about "low prices that I like" or anything of that sort. And I guess we can agree to disagree about how horses are being bred for the "common man".


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## Breella (May 26, 2012)

My new life rules for mares: if it's a mare assume it's preg, even if the vet says no. 9 out of 10 mares being sold at auctions seem to be preg, 7 out of 10 that are sold person to person seem to be preg.

As for gelding, collect a few samples for storage and cut those boys off. If your horse ends up being champ material and actually doing more than sitting in a field all day...


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

BBBCrone said:


> Uhhhh ... okay. No idea where that came from. I didn't say a thing about "low prices that I like" or anything of that sort. And I guess we can agree to disagree about how horses are being bred for the "common man".


You very clearly said that the type of breeding being advocated - responsible and cautious - would result in the prices of horses being out of the normal person's affordability - your exact words were "making it so only the very rich could afford to have a horse". As we are all no doubt aware, the purchase price of the horse is generally the least of the expenses horse owners face, that is never going to change.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

^ i cannot like this enough


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Yes I stated that. However in no way did I imply that it was something I "liked". It doesn't change the fact that based on the guidelines of the post I quoted, purchasing a horse would be out of the realm of possibility for probably at least 1/2 of the members on this board. Is that a bad thing? Not sure. And responsible and cautious weren't the words used in the post I was referring to. "Absolutely extrodinary" however, was.

And as you can also see in my post, I stated that I DO understand what she was trying to get at.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

If the cheap horses disappear people will pay a little bit more for a better quality horse, less animals starve, and go to slaughter. Nothing wrong with that. We need less idiots breeding for color only, 'lines' that barely exist on the papers (if they even have any) or just because they have working parts. Horses are NOT a necessity, they are a luxury. You HAVE to be able to afford owning one before you just go out and expect one. Too many people on here think they're a necessity, and then whine and cry because pookie is sick and they can't pay the vet, or that they're owed something and are going to make pookie earn his keep by breeding him


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

66Domino said:


> Using the name of God is not a biblical interpretation but i do believe it is our responsibility to take care of whatever we bring into our lives; horses, children, pets, people. These are things responsible adults do. We are concerned about the future and well being of this planet and its inhabitants. We do not agree on the slaughter issue but i wish you no ill will. My beliefs are my own and i go about making changes in ways i view effective which is to deal with the issue at the source - overbreeding. What you do with your animals is your business, as is what i do with mine. Be well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seriously horses are livestock it's kinda scary you placed them in the same category as children


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Do they not deserve to be taken care of? That was a ridiculous comment


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think its an interesting discussion; however, nothing will ever come from it. The trouble is that no one I have met honestly believes their horse is trash. Everyone loves their horse. I think my mare is amazing, but when I put on my objective glasses she has flaws. I have a hard time with people who say "my mare has this behavior problem. She is crazy when she is in season, or she bites or whatever this mare's issue is. We are going to get her in foal because she is well bred". Not the answer. It takes two to tango and if this mare has a flaw, conformation or behavioral then don't breed her. In addition, her flaws can easily become the foals flaws because the stud spends no time with the foal and the mare spends at least 4 months of 24/7 time with the foal. There are a ton of really nice horses out that that go to slaughter everyday. There are also horses in the slaughter pen because they are not safe. 

I like the idea of humane euthanasia. I think its a great option and by far the best; however, I also know that the most affordable part of euthanizing a horse is the euthanasia solution. The cost for vet and procedure are around 200-300, disposal of the body if you live in a town or have strict laws due to ground water is 1200 easy. My point is that for some people slaughter is the only affordable means of getting rid of a horse. 

I am not saying yes or no slaughter or yes or no breeding regulation. I am just saying its a tricky topic. Which will never have consensus because everyone has their own opinions.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

MsBHavin said:


> Do they not deserve to be taken care of? That was a ridiculous comment


 
They do deserve to be well cared for but to place them in the same ball park as one would care for their child is out there As humans we tend to humanize everything I believe in animal welfare not animal rights.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

If you've brought a horse into your life you SHOULD care for it. Whether or not you think horses don't deserve to be in the 'same ball park' as kids is YOUR idea. She's not wrong in her idea. The horse didn't pick to be in your care, but they are. Take the best care of them you can. My horse and my son get the best care possible. He is a horse, I do not act like he should be living in the house but I would never say he shouldn't be cared for as well as my son just because he's an animal.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Less animals would starve if the farmers didn't charge so much for hay, the farmers wouldn't charge so much for hay if the fuel prices weren't so high, and there wasn't a drought. Animals would get the vet care they needed if the vet didn't charge so much, the vets wouldn't charge so much if the cost of insurance and schools weren't so high. And around and around it goes. 

It is the horse owners choice to bred, not bred, sell, give away, send to slaughter, or auction or not. As someone else has stated horses are livestock. 

If push came to shove and my family was starving one of my horses would end up in the freezer. I may get roasted for this statement but I would much rather see the mustangs sent to slaughter than hit on the highways or starve or die of thirst, at least they wouldn't go to waste and something would get some use out of them. It's sad to see every bone in their bodies from the highway.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

There are over 7 million horses here in the USA. More than ever before. Only about 300,000 have been exported for slaughter on an annual basis.
Most horses will never be sent to a slaughter.
The market has been affected by both the econonmy and the prolonged drought here in the Southwest. I have been given about 8 horse in the last couple of years. I have been succesful in finding them a good home. got about 5 more to sell or give away.
Breeding affordable horses is not the problem IMO. Breeding cheap horse is. Shalom


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jillybean19 said:


> That's exactly my original point. If we could limit the number of good horses we put on the ground so that there's enough demand for at least those, then stop the breeding of anything less than absolutely extraordinary,


Admirable sentiment, but breeding doesn't work out that strictly. I can breed 2 National Champion parents and have nothing but National Champs for as far back as you can go on their papers and still get culls. There's always going to be the less than marvelous result from what should be a fabulous mating. And it can happen once, go back and do the same breeding again and get fabulous and then do it again and get a cull, or get 3 culls, then a fabulous....There will always be the 'less than extraordinary' horses and they need somewhere to go. In Spain the Yeguada Militar inspects the breeders foal crops and takes the culls to feed the army. We don't have such a neat solution here.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

BBBCrone said:


> Basically what you'd be doing here is making it so only the very rich could afford to have a horse. If "absolutely extraordinary" is your guideline, I'd sure hate to see the price of those!
> 
> Who gets to be judge and jury on that? Show horse breeders? A committee of sorts?
> 
> While I DO understand what you are trying to get at and I'm not saying it's wrong, it isn't in the realm of being realistic. People will do what people will do. Right, wrong or in the middle. All we can do is hold ourselves to our own set of standards.


You're correct in saying that this isn't entirely realistic. However, it wouldn't make it so just the rich can afford horses. There are always things that happen even with very, very careful breeding that will lower horse's prices. And even if we were only producing foals worth quite a bit of money, there would still be so many great horses at affordable prices.

Personally, I think it'd be great to see all horses go up to $1,000 minimum, or at least $500.

Honestly, this to me was the "best" reason for the slaughter - it gave horses in general a minimum price of around $300. Without it, I've had SO many people coming to me for horse lessons because horses are "so cheap" now they're going to get their first one, so they need to take a month or two of lessons. I'm sorry, but if this is the first horse you've ever owned, it's still going to cost at least $1500, same as it would have at any other time. People who don't know anything about horses go and pick up that free horse just like a free puppy on the sidewalk, not realizing that that "free" horse is likely going to end up costing more than a nice, broke "expensive" one, not to mention it could kill you. Then, these horses often don't get the care they need, and because if it's not crazy, they think it's broke and safe to put their kid on it just because it's in too much pain to do anything about it.

The cost barrier is the #1 thing that keeps a horse out of the hands of people who are going to do them more harm than good. If you can afford to keep and care for a horse, you can afford $1,000 up front to buy that horse.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Admirable sentiment, but breeding doesn't work out that strictly. I can breed 2 National Champion parents and have nothing but National Champs for as far back as you can go on their papers and still get culls. There's always going to be the less than marvelous result from what should be a fabulous mating. And it can happen once, go back and do the same breeding again and get fabulous and then do it again and get a cull, or get 3 culls, then a fabulous....There will always be the 'less than extraordinary' horses and they need somewhere to go. In Spain the Yeguada Militar inspects the breeders foal crops and takes the culls to feed the army. We don't have such a neat solution here.


I know it doesn't work like that - and that's why only the most knowledgable and experienced should be breeding because even with all that skill, you're still going to get something less than great every now and then.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

rookie said:


> I think its an interesting discussion; however, nothing will ever come from it. The trouble is that no one I have met honestly believes their horse is trash. Everyone loves their horse.


I beg to differ that nothing will ever come from such a discussion. If you love horses enough, you'll hopefully love them enough to realize you don't need to bring another baby into this uncertain horse world.

All it takes is for one person to realize that breeding their horse isn't a good idea. And then that idea spreads, so two, four, sixteen people realize that becoming a backyard breeder isn't a good idea.

It's the power of words and education.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

I don't think 1,000 for a horse is unreasonable, no. Heck, I'd even go to $2,500 and call it good.

Thing is, how would you regulate something like this? Who is going to decide what is "extraordinary". These are the things I'm mostly speaking of. Your idea of extraordinary and my idea could be miles apart. Who's right? Who's "ideal" would be accepted? That's what I'm trying to get at.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

If I'm short with anyone I dont intend to be its been a bad day my dad passwed away yesterday from cancer and I have an evil horrid step thing I had to find out via fabebook nice huh so I've been having a pretty crummy day.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

cmarie said:


> Less animals would starve if the farmers didn't charge so much for hay, the farmers wouldn't charge so much for hay if the fuel prices weren't so high, and there wasn't a drought. Animals would get the vet care they needed if the vet didn't charge so much, the vets wouldn't charge so much if the cost of insurance and schools weren't so high. And around and around it goes.
> 
> It is the horse owners choice to bred, not bred, sell, give away, send to slaughter, or auction or not. As someone else has stated horses are livestock.
> 
> If push came to shove and my family was starving one of my horses would end up in the freezer. I may get roasted for this statement but I would much rather see the mustangs sent to slaughter than hit on the highways or starve or die of thirst, at least they wouldn't go to waste and something would get some use out of them. It's sad to see every bone in their bodies from the highway.


My family will always come before my kids - but that horse is still my responsibility because I chose to bring it into my life and expecting to care for it. If I have to choose, the horse will go - but I will do everything in my power to make sure that horse doesn't go without.

Part of my responsibility as a knowledgable horse owner is making sure I don't add to the problem of a surplus of horses and the resulting neglect. I can do that in my personal life by not breeding and I have no business doing so, and I can take that a step further by educating those around me to do the same.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> If I'm short with anyone I dont intend to be its been a bad day my dad passwed away yesterday from cancer and I have an evil horrid step thing I had to find out via fabebook nice huh so I've been having a pretty crummy day.


:-( So sorry for your loss. Many blessing to you and yours through this difficult time.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

with all due respect its not about loving horses enough. I don't even know what you mean by that statement. If you love the species enough? If you love your horse enough? Breeding at most levels is about loving horse and about 800 different things. I say most breeders love their horse because most horses are being raised for a companion/partner job. You might love cows but at the end of the day you breed cows knowing that you will send them to slaughter. 

There is a lot that goes into deciding or not deciding to breed. I have met people who are breeding their mares, from the most back yardiest breeder to professional breeding facilities. All of them share one thing, they think the foal they will produce will be a winner. They think their mare and stallion combination is going to produce something good, even if all evidence points to the contrary. Look over the threads, see how many people are psyched to have a mare in foal. Now try telling even one of those people that it was a bad idea. Good breeding and breeders are doing it for the love of their horse, but there are other reasons too. 

Education is important; however, you can't force people to be educated. How many breeders out there ask their veterinarian if they think their mare should be bred? I use veterinarian because your average equine vet sees more horses in a week than some trainers and sees most horses at their worst. Most people don't ask any one at all.

Education is great; however, what most are talking about is a wide spread and sweeping regulation on breeding. Look at how much fuss slaughter kicks up in the USA. Now image saying you can't breed your horse because its not good enough. You say someone's horse is not good enough and a lot of people interpret that as "your not good enough". Thats why I say its an interesting discussion but in the end, its a discussion that is happening in a very, very small section of society as a whole. If we got all horse owners together in a room. The people discussing ethical breeding would be a tiny group standing by the blaring speakers. Now put all people in the world in a hotel. Equine people are taking up maybe two rooms a hotel compared to the rest of society, ethical breeding discussion is occurring in a corner of a room in a hotel.

Edit to add: LuvmyperlinoQH I am so sorry for your loss! Loosing a loved one is never easy. It took months for my family to get back to "normal" after the loss of my cousin. My thoughts are with you during this difficult time.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

BBBCrone said:


> I don't think 1,000 for a horse is unreasonable, no. Heck, I'd even go to $2,500 and call it good.
> 
> Thing is, how would you regulate something like this? Who is going to decide what is "extraordinary". These are the things I'm mostly speaking of. Your idea of extraordinary and my idea could be miles apart. Who's right? Who's "ideal" would be accepted? That's what I'm trying to get at.


Well, bottom line is that I definitely don't have the expertise to be breeding, and I don't think many people breeding their mare or keeping a stud do either. So if we can stop all this backyard breeding, then the quality of horses will go up because it's left to people who know what they're doing.

As for "ideal" - that tends to be determined by the people using the horses, and with a variety of breeders breeding everything from halter horse ideals (my opinion on that is for another thread, not this one) to sport horse and working horse types. But unless you have a really good reason for breeding and really good knowledge and experience, as well as understand the impact that your breeding has on the horse world in general (like understanding that putting one more foal on the ground means one more horse that must find a place in the world, hopefully not at a slaughterhouse or neglected).


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jillybean19 said:


> My family will always come before my kids - but that horse is still my responsibility because I chose to bring it into my life and expecting to care for it. If I have to choose, the horse will go - but I will do everything in my power to make sure that horse doesn't go without.
> 
> Part of my responsibility as a knowledgable horse owner is making sure I don't add to the problem of a surplus of horses and the resulting neglect. I can do that in my personal life by not breeding and I have no business doing so, and I can take that a step further by educating those around me to do the same.


Not to be snippy but, what you choose to do personally is your personal business. Your personal convictions are exactly that, YOURS.

What I do with my horses, and the includes breeding them, is none of your business and if you came on my place yapping about not breeding, I'd treat you the same way I'd treat someone who started talking to me about birth control (ok, 30 years ago....), I'd show you the gate. It's none of your business how many kids I have, how many mares I put in foal, how I bred them or why. My horses are all registered with at least one registry and those that are of the quality are shown. I pay their bills, I raise my foals and train them, I try to sell them to good homes. I never breed more than I can afford to keep. As long as you're not paying my feed and vet bills, ...... I'd tell you to mind your own. And I suspect, that's what you'll get from a lot of people. I've been breeding since I was a child, my parents bred TB's for the track and I helped with the business. 

I find it incredibly offensive for people who have NO CLUE about breeding and raising foals, training them, maintaining them and their parents, to come tell me what I should or should not be doing with them. 

I certainly wouldn't tell a person that they should not breed on their buck teeth, near sighted vision and jug ears, in their children. Yet, if they were horses, I certainly wouldn't use them, they'd be considered culls. But that same person will come along and tell me not to breed my horses? That I've spent a lifetime acquiring and carefully evaluating and trying to improve what I produce every generation? Yeah......not interested in hearing it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

BBBCrone said:


> I don't think 1,000 for a horse is unreasonable, no. Heck, I'd even go to $2,500 and call it good.
> 
> Thing is, how would you regulate something like this? Who is going to decide what is "extraordinary". These are the things I'm mostly speaking of. Your idea of extraordinary and my idea could be miles apart. Who's right? Who's "ideal" would be accepted? That's what I'm trying to get at.


I think it's self regulating. I don't sell anything under $5K, won't even list it or discuss it. If I feel a horse isn't worth that much, then I will find it a good home and I will GIVE it to someone as a pet. I'm not in the Dollar General market for horse sales at all. I spend a lot of money acquiring good breeding stock and even owning sire & dam and doing my own collecting, inseminating and breeding without a vet, I still can't put a foal on the ground and make anything if I sell for less than that.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

rookie said:


> with all due respect its not about loving horses enough. I don't even know what you mean by that statement. If you love the species enough? If you love your horse enough? Breeding at most levels is about loving horse and about 800 different things. I say most breeders love their horse because most horses are being raised for a companion/partner job. You might love cows but at the end of the day you breed cows knowing that you will send them to slaughter.
> 
> There is a lot that goes into deciding or not deciding to breed. I have met people who are breeding their mares, from the most back yardiest breeder to professional breeding facilities. All of them share one thing, they think the foal they will produce will be a winner. They think their mare and stallion combination is going to produce something good, even if all evidence points to the contrary. Look over the threads, see how many people are psyched to have a mare in foal. Now try telling even one of those people that it was a bad idea. Good breeding and breeders are doing it for the love of their horse, but there are other reasons too.
> 
> ...


Yet, education made a difference for me. When I was looking for a horse, I wanted a mare so that I could breed her in the future. I even kept a conversation going with a breeder I admire about which of her horses would be worth putting the money into as a good foundation mare or stallion. She never told me not to breed, but rather took the time to prepare me to be a breeder with one of her horses. She taught me many things - and in the end, I doubt she realized the most important thing she taught me: that I have no business breeding on my own. Thing is, all the work, effort, and pride she put into her facility just wasn't for me and I did not feel that I wanted to take the time and effort to create a quality breeding program. And without that same work, effort, and pride in a breeding program, I don't believe I will ever be able to justify at all breeding even one horse on my own.

I've mainly stayed out of the "regulation" conversation - that's just one aspect. Politics and regulations are just that - and, for better or worse, I personally think the government doesn't have any business in making my personal decisions for me. But again, that is for a different discussion. I believe in education, the power of ideas, and teaching responsibility for one's actions.

If we can educate ourselves and others about the realities of breeding, maybe I can help just one other horse owner take off the rose-colored glasses and realize they can avoid bringing another foal into the world for an uncertain life and at the same time give a good home a wonderful horse that needs one.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

It is only a surplus horse if it cannot find a home. Or gets sold everytime its owner "moves up" to something more advanced. becomes injured or so aged that it cannot be used and is a financial burden. Fails at the discipline it was bred for or doesn't have the Hot pedigree that show people insist on.
All these things add as much to the unwanted and neglected horses as "back yard Breeders" do..
since most horses will never see the inside of an arena IMO those that show and follow the latest trends add to the problem as well by discarding those horses that do not meet their needs.
If you are going to lay the blame on breeders why not spread it around to all those that add to the problem of unwanted horses. Shalom


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Not to be snippy but, what you choose to do personally is your personal business. Your personal convictions are exactly that, YOURS.
> 
> What I do with my horses, and the includes breeding them, is none of your business and if you came on my place yapping about not breeding, I'd treat you the same way I'd treat someone who started talking to me about birth control (ok, 30 years ago....), I'd show you the gate. It's none of your business how many kids I have, how many mares I put in foal, how I bred them or why. My horses are all registered with at least one registry and those that are of the quality are shown. I pay their bills, I raise my foals and train them, I try to sell them to good homes. I never breed more than I can afford to keep. As long as you're not paying my feed and vet bills, ...... I'd tell you to mind your own. And I suspect, that's what you'll get from a lot of people. I've been breeding since I was a child, my parents bred TB's for the track and I helped with the business.
> 
> I find it incredibly offensive for people who have NO CLUE about breeding and raising foals, training them, maintaining them and their parents, to come tell me what I should or should not be doing with them.


I didn't tell you not to breed. If you visit my original post, I said that the people who are coming here asking about what they should breed to what and if their horse should be bred, then the answer is probably not.

You do not sound like someone who would come online to a random forum knowing nothing about breeding trying to breed your horse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jillybean19 said:


> I didn't tell you not to breed. If you visit my original post, I said that the people who are coming here asking about what they should breed to what and if their horse should be bred, then the answer is probably not.
> 
> You do not sound like someone who would come online to a random forum knowing nothing about breeding trying to breed your horse.


Sorry, if that's not how you intended your posts to come across. But with every post I read I got more and more of a "Do NOT breed" & "Breeders are evil" message, very loud and very clear.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> It is only a surplus horse if it cannot find a home. Or gets sold everytime its owner "moves up" to something more advanced. becomes injured or so aged that it cannot be used and is a financial burden. Fails at the discipline it was bred for or doesn't have the Hot pedigree that show people insist on.
> All these things add as much to the unwanted and neglected horses as "back yard Breeders" do..
> since most horses will never see the inside of an arena IMO those that show and follow the latest trends add to the problem as well by discarding those horses that do not meet their needs.
> If you are going to lay the blame on breeders why not spread it around to all those that add to the problem of unwanted horses. Shalom


I agree with you, but for now, that is a moot point and will fall on deaf ears. However, on a forum like this, I think there is a place for encouraging all those hobby horse owners not to add to the problem, as that is what most of us are. Not all, but most.

I'm not here to lay blame, but if one person decides that maybe it's not such a good idea to breed their horse just because, then I've made the difference in the life of at least one horse, and maybe others that end of having a better life because there wasn't another surplus horse.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Sorry, if that's not how you intended your posts to come across. But with every post I read I got more and more of a "Do NOT breed" & "Breeders are evil" message, very loud and very clear.


No problem - people will take this thread where it goes and likely miss many good points made or the intention behind it. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify why I posted this in the first place, though - to encourage hobby breeders and backyard breeders to think twice about what they're doing. Not sure if you missed it, but there were a few posts by me and others about people who _should_ be breeding. I might just go dig them up and put them together, because there were a few good quotes from responsible breeders who know what they're doing.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Examples of people who should be trusted to make breeding decisions:



> Tomorrow is the big day....*********** is scheduled to be gelded. I have mixed feelings. The selfish part of me is very sad, thinking of the beautiful foals he could sire, half-siblings to my beloved ***********. The logical side of me realizes he will be much happier and that his blood lives on through his son. I keep reminding myself of the great adventures he and I will have this spring when I start riding him. - An Arab breeder, who knows that a great stallion makes an awesome gelding





> Speaking of breeders who breed high quality horses still being able to breed and make money - another acquaintance of mine owns a very well known breeding operation for endurance Arabians. I took a look at her horses when I was trying to find an endurance horse, and her unbroken babies were 2-3x the cost of any of the good and at least green broke horses I was looking at. Thing is, she was almost sold out of that year's foals, too. Many of her stock could justifiably be foundation sires and broodmares for future breeders. Her horses have a reputation, and riders from all across the country (and even from other countries) recognize her quality and pay big bucks to get it. Sure things have been tighter during this crappy economy, especially in the horse world, but she still manages to make a decent income because she's built herself up breeding only the best for over half a century. Every pairing is made with extreme attention to detail and decades of knowledge. There is no "I wonder what the foal will be like" - she knows what she's going to get because she paired the sire and dam for something very specific and knows the traits that each tend to produce. And the win records of her horses prove she's got something great and rare with her program.
> 
> That is a breeder I admire, and her horses will always have homes.





> A friend of mine who successfully bred Arabians for years, but gelded her stud when the economy crashed for both her and the horse's sake. She cried about it for weeks, but it was the right thing to do. Not only would it have not been good for her finances to keep producing horses, but there were no homes for them our any other horse to go to.





> My horses are all registered with at least one registry and those that are of the quality are shown. I pay their bills, I raise my foals and train them, I try to sell them to good homes. I never breed more than I can afford to keep... I've been breeding since I was a child, my parents bred TB's for the track and I helped with the business.


And.... there was another breeder who made some really good comments, too, but I can't find them right now. Sorry!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Jillybean you are passionate and you care those are good things. I am not disagreeing totally with you.
If you have to ask total strangers if you should breed your mare and why then you need to educate yourself.
Too many people do breed just to have a foal. That is not a good enough reason IMO. Shalom


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Lol and sorry if all those at once seemed a little overwhelming - I wanted to respond to quite a few people's comments and did so all at once to get it out haha. A lot of people are making really good points - thanks for making this such a good discussion!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Found that last post I was looking for that I liked! Lol, I didn't even realize you were the one that said it until just now Dreamcatcher. I just really liked the way you described it and thought it showed the expertise it takes to be a great breeder!



> I think it's self regulating. I don't sell anything under $5K, won't even list it or discuss it. If I feel a horse isn't worth that much, then I will find it a good home and I will GIVE it to someone as a pet. I'm not in the Dollar General market for horse sales at all. I spend a lot of money acquiring good breeding stock and even owning sire & dam and doing my own collecting, inseminating and breeding without a vet, I still can't put a foal on the ground and make anything if I sell for less than that.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

:rofl:

I don't think anyone can argue that at the moment there is a plentiful supply of horses, of all sorts of qualities, and sadly diminishing numbers of people who can afford to keep them, and keep them properly. (Well OK, there WILL be people who argue it, but some people will argue with their own shadow)

What makes me laugh is there is so often a split, 

"It is the backyard breeder that is the problem"

"Oh it is the high volume breeder that is the problem"

Truth is that any of us, HOLDS HAND UP AS GUILTY, who have intentionally bred their mares have added to the quantity problem, every extra horse ads to that one. The quality issue, well that is another whole question.

So everyone who owns a sexually mature and active animal should ask many many questions before reproducing it, and that question should be WHY am I breeding, and I'm sorry "Just because I can" is as irresponsible as having a whole bunch of kids, just because you can, with no hope of raising them properly.

Because they are pretty, is nearly as bad, but that is just me, the foals I have put on the ground where bred for their usability, and everyone found a new home, and everyone (so far touch wood) is happy with their new horse.

Funny though, I actually found that it is far more satisfying to take on horses that someone else has bred, and make good useful citizens out of them, incidentally, it is probably close to being as good a way of spending money as breeding, cos lets face it, breeding by itself is not a money maker.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> The cattle were brought up in an earlier post. Meat markets a crime? What do you eat?


How they are handled and the whole process, what is injected in to them ect.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> imo a dangerous horse should be put down whether it be sent to slaughter or with a bullet there are far to many good horses with out homes to put up with a dangerous one. Cant tell ya how many halter babies end up at the sale barn with no papers but per the auctioneer they are bred to the hilt but selling as un registered and I chime in loudly but whats their HYPP status lolpeople look at me like I'm crazy because they arent very smart in the way of genetic diseases.


I agree there are way to many good horses going to the kill pens but I was taught to fix my mistakes. Ive seen people post it a million and one times over again " I have this dangerous horse, Ive owned him since blah blah age" and people tell them to send him to slaughter. Why dont you take the responsibility to call someone out to shoot it or PTS. Instead of sending it to some place where it could hurt other horses or people and itself.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> LOL!
> 
> That's all. :lol:


Im sorry you might laugh or call me a tree hugger but I have compassion for all things even if they are going to be on my dinner plate and I think they need some respect to. I dont find killing animals in any way funny and if you do then you might want to go see a therapist.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I think it's self regulating. I don't sell anything under $5K, won't even list it or discuss it. If I feel a horse isn't worth that much, then I will find it a good home and I will GIVE it to someone as a pet. I'm not in the Dollar General market for horse sales at all. I spend a lot of money acquiring good breeding stock and even owning sire & dam and doing my own collecting, inseminating and breeding without a vet, I still can't put a foal on the ground and make anything if I sell for less than that.


:clap: that is music to my ears. 

I know breeding is not the only reason horses go to slaughter...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jillybean19 said:


> Found that last post I was looking for that I liked! Lol, I didn't even realize you were the one that said it until just now Dreamcatcher. I just really liked the way you described it and thought it showed the expertise it takes to be a great breeder!


Golden Horse said something too that I like: Funny though, I actually found that it is far more satisfying to take on horses that someone else has bred, and make good useful citizens out of them


I used to do that but, I think now that I'm getting older and have decided to use an outside trainer for breaking, I've quit taking outside horses at all. I got kicked, bit and thrown a few times too many and now, at least by raising them from the ground up, I have minimized my injuries. At least for now, anyway. 

Because of having been injured pretty severely a few times, I decided to quit bringing in outside horses with questionable or no history available. Now, I just breed 1 or 2 foals per year and raise them up and train them until they are good citizens and ready to move on. If that means I keep 'em til they're under saddle, that's fine, I get to ride them for a while. Since I'm getting farther and farther away from halter type horses, that's going to be happening more and more, til I decide I'm just too old to handle it anymore and then I'll quit breeding, sell off the breeding stock or give it to someone just starting out, and I'll keep a couple of the real steady Eddies for me and hubby to play around on.


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

Chiilaa said:


> You very clearly said that the type of breeding being advocated - responsible and cautious - would result in the prices of horses being out of the normal person's affordability - your exact words were "making it so only the very rich could afford to have a horse". As we are all no doubt aware, the purchase price of the horse is generally the least of the expenses horse owners face, that is never going to change.


I'd also like to add a little fuel to the fire in that if the common man cannot afford to purchase a horse, how on earth could they feed, vet and maintain it? Guess there's a lot of dreamers but few realists when it comes to horses. We jokingly call my daughter's horse our Ferrari. LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

chubbypony said:


> Im sorry you might laugh or call me a tree hugger but I have compassion for all things even if they are going to be on my dinner plate and I think they need some respect to. I dont find killing animals in any way funny and if you do then you might want to go see a therapist.


Bravo! I stand with you on that one. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

I bred my mare, yes, yes I did. I am not a big breeder looking to further the breed, I was wanting several things. 
1. Another horse to replace my mare when she passes. (yes I was aware of the risks involved)
2. I did want to experience having a foal.

BUT, a LOT of thinking went into this. Many factors came into this.
1. I could financially support the mare and foal.
2. I could guarantee (as much is statistically possible) that the foal would have a place to live for the rest of its life.
3. I felt my mare was of breeding material and had been told so by many other experience horse people.
4. I thoroughly researched which stallion I felt would produce what I wanted from the foal, a general allrounder which could do pretty much everything I felt I wanted to give a go at the lower levels.
5. Whilst I had not had any experience raising or caring for a mare and foal, I have the support of others who know what they are doing.
6. It was unlikely, in my country, for me to be able to purchase what I wanted, fully broken, for a reasonable price, total costs to date have come to less than $2,000 (I have been lucky, I know).

So please, don't just assume that because some of the motives for breeding are to replace your mare when she passes or to experience having a foal, that the person has not thought out what they were doing.
Yes there are some who don't think it through and breed for those reasons, but those ones aren't the ones that actively seek out education about the subject.

All my thinking is for the future, of both me, my mare and her foal.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

chubbypony said:


> How they are handled and the whole process, what is injected in to them ect.


 
Exactly and it talked about how the drugs in horse meat was able to be consumed so I added about if they could see what passes for edible beef theyed get the whole picture.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

rookie said:


> There is money in horses, I know I put it there.


:lol: stealing this for a status. Overall, this has been a great discussion. I don't think there is an answer to irresponsible breeding other than economics-it's getting too **** expensive to "just breed Snookums 'cause he is bootiful". Although I do foresee more people not spending the money to geld :? due to the economy.


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

jillybean19 said:


> You're correct in saying that this isn't entirely realistic. However, it wouldn't make it so just the rich can afford horses. There are always things that happen even with very, very careful breeding that will lower horse's prices. And even if we were only producing foals worth quite a bit of money, there would still be so many great horses at affordable prices.
> 
> Personally, I think it'd be great to see all horses go up to $1,000 minimum, or at least $500.
> 
> ...


Well said! If you can't afford to buy a horse how can you afford feed, shelter, farrier, wormer and vaccines? We may spend a bit more on our horses because we work at keeping them competition ready but feed, etc. for one horse is $300/month. That's for feed and supplements only. I've known people who put their horses on straight pasture but unless you live in KY, WY or some other place with nutrient rich pasture, it isn't enough. Even then I'd supplement.

Keeping horses is not for the faint of heart. It's a tough, gritty, sometimes thankless and often heartbreaking venture. If little Johnnie or Janie want a horse, let them take riding lessons. It's unfair to think you can keep a horse on the cheap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

DimSum said:


> :lol: stealing this for a status. Overall, this has been a great discussion. I don't think there is an answer to irresponsible breeding other than economics-it's getting too **** expensive to "just breed Snookums 'cause he is bootiful". Although I do foresee more people not spending the money to geld :? due to the economy.


LOL. Love the quote!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

CessBee said:


> I bred my mare, yes, yes I did. I am not a big breeder looking to further the breed, I was wanting several things.
> 1. Another horse to replace my mare when she passes. (yes I was aware of the risks involved)
> 2. I did want to experience having a foal.
> 
> ...


This is a grey area for me.

At the heart of this particular thread, I started it in response to all the people posting asking for instructions on breeding, opinions on who should be breed, on whether they should breed their horse, etc. I don't think these people should be breeding. They're the ones who are going to put their horses at risks and likely not going to be able to make a wise decision about breeding pairs, manage the pregnancy, and much less care for a foal and young horse that requires attention and training constantly. The main feeling behind posting this was "if you have to ask, then the answer is no".

As for people to take all aspects into consideration and have the knowledge and experience needed for breeding and having a foal, that's another story. I can't say that I necessarily agree with doing so, and I won't ever breed my own horses. I feel much more comfortable and equipped to select a horse that's already on the ground for evaluation and critique. And in my area, the "top of the line" horses that I'd be looking for run about $3500 broke and directly from the breeder and 4-5 years old. From someone who isn't in it as a business, you can find a good horse for under $2000.

That's not to say that you shouldn't have bred your horse. I don't feel comfortable passing judgement on the decision of someone who clearly knows a lot more than I do about breeding and had very clear and (I'm thinking) justifiable reasons for breeding.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

chubbypony said:


> Im sorry you might laugh or call me a tree hugger but I have compassion for all things even if they are going to be on my dinner plate and I think they need some respect to. I dont find killing animals in any way funny and if you do then you might want to go see a therapist.


When it comes to dinner plates respect goes both ways...at the moment, well come Monday, I will be back on my high protein low carb diet, and the meals I am eating are high soy, which scares the heck out of me because it is probably GMO soy. It is very hard eating ethically these days. Sorry for change of subject, but it is important.



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Golden Horse said something too that I like: Funny though, I actually found that it is far more satisfying to take on horses that someone else has bred, and make good useful citizens out of them
> 
> 
> I used to do that but, I think now that I'm getting older and have decided to use an outside trainer for breaking, I've quit taking outside horses at all. I got kicked, bit and thrown a few times too many and now, at least by raising them from the ground up, I have minimized my injuries. At least for now, anyway.
> ...


Hey, I chicken out when it comes to actually getting on them:shock: I like to take them from fools, to ready to actually get on and ride, then I market the, as "Ready to start in any direction" :rofl::rofl:


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> When it comes to dinner plates respect goes both ways...at the moment, well come Monday, I will be back on my high protein low carb diet, and the meals I am eating are high soy, which scares the heck out of me because it is probably GMO soy. It is very hard eating ethically these days. Sorry for change of subject, but it is important.


Agreed, I try not to eat processed food and I buy local produce. I many just eat fruits and veggys with some whole grains and nuts but I know this is not a diet most people would consider normal. 
Soy is good in smaller amounts so im told? 
Sorry to get off topic NOW I think I should breed the pony my bf got me. She has perfect confirmation and had proven her self to be a good saddle rack. 
She is about 3 feet high and takes up to much space in my room. 













TGIF


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

chubbypony said:


> Agreed, I try not to eat processed food and I buy local produce. I many just eat fruits and veggys with some whole grains and nuts but I know this is not a diet most people would consider normal.
> Soy is good in smaller amounts so im told?
> Sorry to get off topic NOW I think I should breed the pony my bf got me. She has perfect confirmation and had proven her self to be a good saddle rack.
> She is about 3 feet high and takes up to much space in my room.
> ...


I don't know... That back right pastern looks weak and she has a long back
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

DimSum said:


> Although I do foresee more people not spending the money to geld :? due to the economy.


This just brought back a HORRENDOUS story my barn girl told me last summer. We'd all gone to an auction and several friends of hers bought horses. They took them home and gelded them standing up. No local, no tranq, no nothing. I almost passed out at the very thought. You have the money to buy and feed a horse but don't think enough of it to pay the vet either $65 to come out or $115 and you drop the horse off the night before and pick up the following evening and it includes a tetanus shot!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Hey, I chicken out when it comes to actually getting on them:shock: I like to take them from fools, to ready to actually get on and ride, then I market the, as "Ready to start in any direction" :rofl::rofl:



LOL, see? That's the part I don't want to deal with, the bad habits instilled by a fool, up to the point of getting ready to get on. I want my ground work and manners good and solid from birth. I'll still throw a leg over anything that will stand still long enough, I just want someone else to have the first couple of rides on them, so I can see if bucking or rearing is gonna be an issue. Once I'm in the saddle I'm stuck like Crazy Glue, it's getting out of the way on the ground that sometimes trips me up. 

I've only ever been seriously hurt on the ground, never had a major injury from the saddle.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

66Domino said:


> Well said! If you can't afford to buy a horse how can you afford feed, shelter, farrier, wormer and vaccines? We may spend a bit more on our horses because we work at keeping them competition ready but feed, etc. for one horse is $300/month. That's for feed and supplements only. I've known people who put their horses on straight pasture but unless you live in KY, WY or some other place with nutrient rich pasture, it isn't enough. Even then I'd supplement.
> 
> Keeping horses is not for the faint of heart. It's a tough, gritty, sometimes thankless and often heartbreaking venture. If little Johnnie or Janie want a horse, let them take riding lessons. It's unfair to think you can keep a horse on the cheap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here where I live, it is relatively cheap to keep horses if you own your own property. I spend $180 a month for two horses, a pony and a mini. That's feed, shavings and excellent quality grass/alfalfa hay. I can afford that. I have a savings for vet bills that I do not wish to dip into. I can also schedule any vet visits(aside from emergencies) in advance and save up the amount I need. I do not have a spare $1,000+ cash for a horse. But yet I can afford to keep them. So saying that if someone can't afford the purchase price they can't afford to take care of them does not go across the board. I do, however agree with all the other points you make. We have world quality minis. We have two foals on the way for mid summer and after that we're done for a while. I feel that as long as the individuals are of good quality, there is a purpose for the foal(ours will be shown halter then put to cart), you understand the risks and money involved, then go for it. There will always be a demand for good quality horses, like DB says. Especially around here, people just want a GOOD trail horse or a GOOD play day horse or a GOOD kids horse. There may be a surplus of horses, but not a whole lot of GOOD horses.


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

This is a really good thread. I know a teenage girl who wants to breed her mare because she's got great bloodlines and what not. But she's only had horses for 2 years and has no idea of the demands a mare in foal, and a foal itself need. I thought about going through my computer to slap her(if possible ;-)). I don't even know why she even wants to breed her mare. She's already got a herd of 4-5, aren't they enough!! I agree with the OP. Though there are some very valid posts here too. Thanks OP for posting something that i wasn't sure how to rant about LOL


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Elizabeth Bowers said:


> This is a really good thread. I know a teenage girl who wants to breed her mare because she's got great bloodlines and what not. But she's only had horses for 2 years and has no idea of the demands a mare in foal, and a foal itself need. I thought about going through my computer to slap her(if possible ;-)). I don't even know why she even wants to breed her mare. She's already got a herd of 4-5, aren't they enough!! I agree with the OP. Though there are some very valid posts here too. Thanks OP for posting something that i wasn't sure how to rant about LOL


Have her go to a breeding farm and do Foal Watch. A couple of weeks without sleep and having to work all day with the mares and newborns ought to cure her of any random breeding desires.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Have her go to a breeding farm and do Foal Watch. A couple of weeks without sleep and having to work all day with the mares and newborns ought to cure her of any random breeding desires.


As a prelude to that, have her read _Blessed Are The Broodmares_. All the things described that can go wrong with pregnancy and foaling may just scare her smart! :twisted:


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

That was a scarey book. Sending her to do foal watch will do one of 2 things, make her want a foal worse or make her not want one. It made my girls want one more.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> This just brought back a HORRENDOUS story my barn girl told me last summer. We'd all gone to an auction and several friends of hers bought horses. They took them home and gelded them standing up. No local, no tranq, no nothing. I almost passed out at the very thought. You have the money to buy and feed a horse but don't think enough of it to pay the vet either $65 to come out or $115 and you drop the horse off the night before and pick up the following evening and it includes a tetanus shot!


oh.my.:shock:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

When I bought Aires, he was a two-year-old stud colt. A random boarder at my old barn (where I bought him) tried to convince me to keep him a stud. Her reasons? He's gorgeous (well, not gonna argue that one), I could get at least a $500 stud fee for him (based on what? He's pretty?), and she wanted to breed her horribly conformed, sway-backed mare to him. I just laughed at her and said "You do know he's a grade, right?" She kept trying to convince me that I could make all sorts of money off him as a stud. She kept it up until the day he was gelded.

When I started my new job, I was looking at purchasing a lovely TB/warmblood mare to learn to jump on. My best friend got all excited and said "Oh, and you could breed her!" I ended up not getting her and part of me is glad. With the way my job ended up, I wouldn't have been able to provide proper care for the mare or foal and the market here is crap for anything other than QHs and paints that are winning in the rodeo arena, so there's no guarantee I could have found the foal a good home.

I would eventually love to raise a foal. However, when that time comes, I will research, do a lot of looking, and ultimately purchase one already on the ground.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

cmarie said:


> That was a scarey book. Sending her to do foal watch will do one of 2 things, make her want a foal worse or make her not want one. It made my girls want one more.


LOL! Did they do the WHOLE thing though? I've had teenagers come out and help with Foal Watch and just stay for the whole deal, watch all night, clean stalls, do barn work all day, then back to watching the cameras again all night, until the last mare foals. 

Every last one of them decided that breeding was not a career they needed to pursue.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

chubbypony said:


> Im sorry you might laugh or call me a tree hugger but I have compassion for all things even if they are going to be on my dinner plate and I think they need some respect to. I dont find killing animals in any way funny and if you do then you might want to go see a therapist.


Oh, PUH-LEEZE.

Of course I don't find killing animals funny. If I did, I wouldn't have just sent my stallion in for surgery when I'm not working and just shot him instead. I wouldn't have re-habbed those 18-24 year old horses I pulled out of the kill pen. I wouldn't have lame 14 year old horses in my pasture just costing me a feed bill. I wouldn't have hauled home every stray cat and dog (and once a raven who bit in the face for my troubles that I still sport a scar from) and drove my mother nuts.
I do, however, find melodramatic people who can't seem to get off the naivety bus, funny. 
Slaughter isn't pretty - be it horses, cows, pigs or turkeys - but it's not as horrible as every PETA nut would believe it to be. Yeah, I'm pro-slaughter. I'm also a realist.

Do I have foals coming this year? Yes. 
Why? Because I have quality stock that have superb personailites and temperments, are conformationally as correct as they can get, have been bred to stallions that best benefit them, and all are out of either Regional or National champion sires or dams, and I feel that will have a positive effect on the Arabian gene pool be in the show ring or have a long life in competitive riding or as a family mount.

It isn't the QUALITY breeder's that are the problems, unless, of course, you'd like the equine species to die off. It's the ***-hats who have no idea what breeding horse a to horse b and all the costs and complications of such that are the problems. 
Yes, you get some well bred horses that end up in the meat pen. Yes, you get horses from BNB's in there. But the majority are not. The majority of horses in the kill pen are those grade foals, mares, and stallions that suddenly didn't make their owner rich as they thought. 
If you don't agree we will have to agree to disagree.


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

jillybean19 said:


> I don't know... That back right pastern looks weak and she has a long back
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And what's with those ears?! 😉
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> This just brought back a HORRENDOUS story my barn girl told me last summer. We'd all gone to an auction and several friends of hers bought horses. They took them home and gelded them standing up. No local, no tranq, no nothing. I almost passed out at the very thought. You have the money to buy and feed a horse but don't think enough of it to pay the vet either $65 to come out or $115 and you drop the horse off the night before and pick up the following evening and it includes a tetanus shot!


Oh no!!! Let's hope one day they get a root canal with no meds. What do some people do with that big, empty space between their ears!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

I personally think it is a far bigger "crime" to not bother to train a horse than it is to breed. (That doesn't mean I believe breeding should be taken lightly)

Just think how many horses would have better homes if they were obedient, trustworthy mounts that will load in a trailer and stand tied quietly? Now not every horse will have the mind to do this, but a vast majority do.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Agreed, CCH. Once the horse is on the ground, the best thing for it is to make sure it has the proper training put on it. That way, it's less likely to fall through the cracks.

Oh, and please make sure to GELD your colts. Most folks _aren't_ looking for an uncut two year old.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

For dreamcatcher, I heard about someone who tried a DIY gelding with a rubber band. One week, one massive infection, a boat load of maggots and they called the vet. It took some work but the horse was okay. In the end, it would have been cheaper, less painful and way less gross to just have the horse gelded properly in the first place. 

For anyone, who wants to breed. Take a some time and work/volunteer at a breeding farm. Do foal watch and then watch some horrible things happen. I read an article on NPR, who interviewed some folks at a large breeding farm. They talked about this horrible virus that was affecting thoroughbreds a few years ago. The foals would become septic and die very shortly after birth. He talked about the foals being born and dying so quickly that they did not even have time to bury them. One foal would be being born and the previous foal would be dying, they just stacked them up by the door. That would fix any desire to have a foal.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

In all serousness, I will never breed a mare of my own. Ever. I only had one experience with a mare I owned foaling. She was bred when I got her (unbeknownst to me) and once I found out I gave her the best of care. Long painful story short, the foal died during birth and the Vet and myself had to...well get it out of the mare or she would have died too. Beautiful black and white paint colt with two blue eyes. Sigh. What a painful memory. He is buried here, I planted an apple tree and think of him whenever I see it blooming. Nope, never again.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Breeding isn't all cute foals and happy mamma's that's for sure. It willtake a lot for me to put another mare in foal, I was so scared that my luck had run out when Ace was in foal. All was well in the end, but it aged me many many years.


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> Oh, PUH-LEEZE.
> 
> Of course I don't find killing animals funny. If I did, I wouldn't have just sent my stallion in for surgery when I'm not working and just shot him instead. I wouldn't have re-habbed those 18-24 year old horses I pulled out of the kill pen. I wouldn't have lame 14 year old horses in my pasture just costing me a feed bill. I wouldn't have hauled home every stray cat and dog (and once a raven who bit in the face for my troubles that I still sport a scar from) and drove my mother nuts.
> I do, however, find melodramatic people who can't seem to get off the naivety bus, funny.
> ...


Why are you jumping the gun, I did not accuse you of not loving horses. I just pointed out that our current meat industry and how it is set up for everyone involved is very wrong, not something to laugh or tease about. 

You could write a 1000000 page book on the cattle industry and how pitiful it is(for everyone involved). It is a crime and effects all of us. Everyone should be aware of it, instead of it being hidden to the public. I am not a member of PETA, I just like to know about our current agriculture system. 

I will not banter any longer you are right we can agree to disagree thats the great thing about being an individual. 

“What you would desire others to do for you, you should do for others. You should respect others, as you want to be respected by them.”


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

chubbypony said:


> You could write a 1000000 page book on the cattle industry and how pitiful it is(for everyone involved). It is a crime and effects all of us. Everyone should be aware of it, instead of it being hidden to the public. I am not a member of PETA, I just like to know about our current agriculture system.


Hang on a cotton pickin moment.......Some of us raise cattle ( when we are in the cattle business) in as ethical way as we can, please don't blame ALL of us for the crimes of a few.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Hang on a cotton pickin moment.......Some of us raise cattle ( when we are in the cattle business) in as ethical way as we can, please don't blame ALL of us for the crimes of a few.


Mmmmmm ribs.....oooops thinking out loud:shock: darn it, I've done that before haven't I??? :lol:


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Hang on a cotton pickin moment.......Some of us raise cattle ( when we are in the cattle business) in as ethical way as we can, please don't blame ALL of us for the crimes of a few.


Unfortunately you are the few(left). Like usual on a thread people jump to conclusions. I am not here to explain the WHOLE cattle industry. It is a crime that small farmers are being left in the dust because of the big AR farmers. We need more small local farms.

Reason I said EVERYONE involved. Small and local farms , those who eat it, those who transport it, those who slaughter it, the cattle ect.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

chubbypony said:


> Why are you jumping the gun, I did not accuse you of not loving horses.


Who said anything about love? I didn't.
My horses don't love me, and I'm just in them for a profit.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Muppetgirl said:


> Mmmmmm ribs.....oooops thinking out loud:shock: darn it, I've done that before haven't I??? :lol:


Who says we can't have a BBQ in the winter?!


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

That's it! I'm making ribs for dinner tomorrow!


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> Who says we can't have a BBQ in the winter?!


Lol! I'm sure I'm anemic!......mmmmm nomnomnomnom meat!!!:lol:


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> That's it! I'm making ribs for dinner tomorrow!


I'll bring the salad. Kill them darn green veggies.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Muppetgirl said:


> Lol! I'm sure I'm anemic!......mmmmm nomnomnomnom meat!!!:lol:


I am, actually. Under doc's orders to eat more read meat to get off Iron pills. **** perfect excuse. LOL


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Come on over. I'll go to the local butcher and pick up TONS of ribs. We start cooking them 4 hours before dinner, they're fall off the bone good by the time they're done!


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> Who said anything about love? I didn't.
> My horses don't love me, and I'm just in them for a profit.


I hope you are being sarcastic. :shock:


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> I am, actually. Under doc's orders to eat more read meat to get off Iron pills. **** perfect excuse. LOL


**** perfect! Go off your pills, follow Drs orders and take on the Atkins diet....mmmmm bacon:lol:


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## Arab Mama (Jun 10, 2012)

If I ever decided to breed one of my mares, I don't think I'd ever forgive myself if something went wrong with the pregnancy and/or the delivery. As great as it would be to continue the line of the horses I have, I would be hard pressed to bring another horse into the world and/or risk the health of my mares.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

chubbypony said:


> I hope you are being sarcastic. :shock:


LOL
Completely and wholly. 
Horses are the worst investment I ever made.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

MsBHavin said:


> Come on over. I'll go to the local butcher and pick up TONS of ribs. We start cooking them 4 hours before dinner, they're fall off the bone good by the time they're done!


On my way.....*sluurp*


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> I am, actually. Under doc's orders to eat more read meat to get off Iron pills. **** perfect excuse. LOL


Son got a new smoker BBQ for Christmas, so he is cooking up a lump of dead cow for us on Sunday, come on over. I may sacrifice a veggie or two just so the meat isn't lonely:lol:


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> LOL
> Completely and wholly.
> Horses are the worst investment I ever made.


Yeh money pits but big fluffy cute ones.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Son got a new smoker BBQ for Christmas, so he is cooking up a lump of dead cow for us on Sunday, come on over. I may sacrifice a veggie or two just so the meat isn't lonely:lol:


I bet NorCal has way better weather then we go! Probably also goes well with the doc's orders - warm weather, no snow. LOL


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

chubbypony said:


> Yeh money pits but big fluffy cute ones.


Yeah, that they are. Too bad they're just like Lays. 
lol


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

It was 55 today! I have enough space for all! Come on down!


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> It was 55 today! I have enough space for all! Come on down!


I have to get my passport first. And I'm good pain pills to last. The 45 minute trip to the hospital is almost too much. LOL
We've been having freaky good weather. Sitting around -4C during the day and around -15C at night. I know it will end and we'll get some more -35C before it breaks for spring tough. 
I swear I'm moving - California or Arizona, I haven't decided yet. lol


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> Yeah, that they are. Too bad they're just like Lays.
> lol


hehe 
my bf calls them money eating poop machine.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Come to Ca! NorCal has some beautiful ranches! Az gets tooooo hot!


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

chubbypony said:


> hehe
> my bf calls them money eating poop machine.


****
How true is that?! There are some great ones in the "Oh, you rode a horse once?" thread too.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> Come to Ca! NorCal has some beautiful ranches! Az gets tooooo hot!


California certaintly does! My last colt came from Cali. 
Some of best Arabian breeders are in Cali. 
Arizona just has some of the top Arabian horse shows. LOL
BUT... I couldn't ever LEAVE Canada, and Cali is a much closer drive so...it would be there!


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> California certaintly does! My last colt came from Cali.
> Some of best Arabian breeders are in Cali.
> Arizona just has some of the top Arabian horse shows. LOL
> BUT... I couldn't ever LEAVE Canada, and Cali is a much closer drive so...it would be there!


We should trade, my Fjord would prefer to be in Canada (I'd freeze to death) but your arabs need the cali warmth. It'd work out for everyone


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> We should trade, my Fjord would prefer to be in Canada (I'd freeze to death) but your arabs need the cali warmth. It'd work out for everyone


He part near did freeze! I bought him in December, but had to wait until April to haul him here. Didn't know what to make of the snow.
When winter started he got really cold at first, then grew a coat like a darn wooly mammoth. lol
No trades, but you can send yours up anyways! I got an old guy who teaches them to drive, and he can haul firewood for me.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Lucky you! he's already broke to drive. No riding yet though, he'll be 4 soon enough and started right after his 4th birthday.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

OMG it seems every time I check back here, we're talking about more ways to eat horses!! Now we're all going to CA for a horse BBQ?!?!

For the record, the first thing I saw when I clicked the email to see the updates was "mmmm.... ribs...." lol

(Yes, I had trouble finding where I left off on the posts again and was nearly horrified at our plans for a BBQ, but I went back and figured out what was going on lol)


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

jillybean19 said:


> OMG it seems every time I check back here, we're talking about more ways to eat horses!! Now we're all going to CA for a horse BBQ?!?!
> 
> For the record, the first thing I saw when I clicked the email to see the updates was "mmmm.... ribs...." lol
> 
> (Yes, I had trouble finding where I left off on the posts again and was nearly horrified at our plans for a BBQ, but I went back and figured out what was going on lol)



LOL
And lucky you. We saved the slice and prep work just for you. :-D


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

and what about the mashing? Are we going to make the tartare now?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Hmmm, don't know about y'all, but I prefer pork ribs over beef. No offense to all y'all who raise cattle, but I just never think beef when I think of ribs. Horse ribs? Unless they taste like pork ribs, don't want 'em!


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

jillybean19 said:


> OMG it seems every time I check back here, we're talking about more ways to eat horses!! Now we're all going to CA for a horse BBQ?!?!
> 
> For the record, the first thing I saw when I clicked the email to see the updates was "mmmm.... ribs...." lol
> 
> (Yes, I had trouble finding where I left off on the posts again and was nearly horrified at our plans for a BBQ, but I went back and figured out what was going on lol)


Mmmm....not sure why but ribs do sound good right now, hahaha!

But now to go backing topic...

RANT WARNING!!!!

I feel like most breeders breed their horses purely out of emotion and without any thought into it. Not just the cost and the responsiblity, but what could happen to the mare. Gosh if I had a penny for each story I heard about breeders breeding a mare and had something go wrong, I'd be rich!!

Somewhere on the forum I heard about a mare in foal, as she was giving birth the foal couldn't come out (breeched?..didn't say) and eventually they had no choice but to cut the baby out. The mare also never recovered and was put down. I don't remember who said that but all I know was I was in shock after I read that. I've talked to a vet before, he told me that he really rarely never gets emergency calls about mares having compilations (other than calls about him being on deck). But who's to say that your mare won't be one of those victims?

Unfortunately we cannot tell. We cant see into the future. We can't tell if our foals are going to make it along with the mare, let alone go to a good home and won't be in the wagon to slaughter.

If we could then I would breed my mare. Heck I have been told by my vet that I should. She has the bloodlines, conformation, disposition, etc. for breeding. The only thing she is missng is a career under her belt, but tht is because she only 3. If I breed her to another western pleasure horse, say No Doubt I'm Lazy, I am pretty sure that someone will line right up to buy the foal. Even if I am certain I will be able to keep the foal I have no way to say that I will keep it forever. Who knows maybe in 20 years from when the baby is born I get out of horses, etc. not saying that will happen but it very well could.

And I absolutely *HATE IT* when people say 'oh your horse is a world champion' or 'oh your horse has so-and-so in her bloodlines! You should breed her!' No! I dont care if my mare is a world champion, i dont care
If her mom and her dad are world champions, etc. like I said above I cannot promise anything! Just because mommie and daddy are world champions doesn't mean that baby is going to be a world champion. Too many things can happen. I also hate when people have a gelding, and the horse ends up being a 7 time world champion and has a awesome pedigree to back it up and then people say 'you shouldn't have gelded him!!!!' 

Take A Certain Vino for example, he ALWAYS goes to the world show each year. Each year when he steps foot into a western pleasure class, he wins! He has won the world show as a 2 year old and has won each western class he goes into, and I think he is 7 or 8 now. If he was a stallion I am sure mare owners will be lining up at the door, but he's a gelding. If you ask me, that's one less chunk of horses going to slaughter.

To me, if your going to own a stud or breed a mare it has to have all of the following....

-show record
-very strong pedigree
-correct conformation
-extremely nice disposition
-correct movement
-trainable/willing personality
-A+ health record (genetic wise--like HYPP)

if you stud and/or your mare does not any one of those, then stay away from breeding. Don't breed your mare cut your colt. If you want a foal then buy one! If you want to make money then go to a barn clean stalls, make browbands, etc. there are more ways to make money than breeding. Breeding is much more money and can be dangerous for the mare.

Would I like to breed my mare? Absolutely! Can I be 100% sure she'll be safe? No. Can I be sure I can keep the baby? No. Can I be sure that the baby will not go to slaughter? No.

If you ask me that pretty much answers the question, "should I breed my mare?"

I love my mare too much to loose her over my baby-craving ways. I would probably die if my mare died while foaling. I wouldn't be able to bare it all, and when it's comes down to it, it will all be my fault.

Phew! End of rant.


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## 66Domino (Jan 2, 2013)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Mmmm....not sure why but ribs do sound good right now, hahaha!
> 
> But now to go backing topic...
> 
> ...


You go girl!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

My stallion has never been in an arena. Most of my mares havent either.
All that a show record proves is that someone took the money, hired a trainer, paid a lot of entry fee, travel expenses and bought a lot of expensive equipment. Unless it is a performance class that does not judge the riders abiility the horses true ability is not solely judged.
I do not breed my foals specifically for the show ring. Especially the western pleasure, or halter classes.
I dont look at a show record until I am satisfied the horse has a good conformation, temperamant, breed type, AND is a proven producer or is linebred enough to almost assure it.
The ONLY way to prove breeding stock is to BREED them.
I breed affodable, athletic, and trainable horses that have great pedigrees.
If the buyer wants to show one then that is up to them.
I will start showing a few colts this year but have no desire to go beyond our regional shows or locally. The US Nationals is not my goal and never will be.
I keep my expenses down so my horses and I are financially secure and safe from the fluctuations in the economy. Shalom


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> My stallion has never been in an arena. Most of my mares havent either.
> All that a show record proves is that someone took the money, hired a trainer, paid a lot of entry fee, travel expenses and bought a lot of expensive equipment. Unless it is a performance class that does not judge the riders abiility the horses true ability is not solely judged.
> I do not breed my foals specifically for the show ring. Especially the western pleasure, or halter classes.
> I dont look at a show record until I am satisfied the horse has a good conformation, temperamant, breed type, AND is a proven producer or is linebred enough to almost assure it.
> ...


Hear!! Hear!! db.. my sentiments exactly.. though I am showing some of my horses due to some peoples' expectations of a show record. and I'm having fun with it..:wink:
Couldn't have said it better!


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## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> Mmmm....not sure why but ribs do sound good right now, hahaha!
> 
> But now to go backing topic...
> 
> ...


I've got to kind of step in and say my opinion. You say don't breed a mare without a show record? Well, what about all the mares that were injured in training, or the owners had a lack of funds to put her in training and show her who then went on the be a heck of a producer? 

Also, anything to do with horses can be a gamble, but if you have a well bred foal chances are, it won't end up in the slaughter pen if you take the time to train it. There is still a market down here for a riding horse, even if it is diminished from what it was. 

It kind of irritates me when people are so black and white about things when there are soooo many shades of grey. I think if people were truthful about their horse's weaknesses and worked within that range to put a decent foal on the ground, cudos to them! If everyone up and quit breeding except for the "big time breeders" then the average man probably couldn't afford that horse's fee just to bring it home and there'd be a smaller group of riding horses to choose from in a few years, if you could afford one at all. 

I do NOT agree with the large, dry pastures of 10's of horses allowed to breed at will, forced to starve as more and more arrive because of an owner's neglect. Stopping that sort of thing right there would help this problem a great deal as well as stop more badly conformed horses dropping on the ground. I'm pro slaughter, because I think there needs to be an outlet for all the horses that are untrainable, lame, very old, crazy, etc, so we aren't wasting space and resources on something useless when that space could hold a nice prospect or a riding horse. 

I've seen some people who breed for themselves with one or two mares a year put out the same quality if not nicer colts than some "big time breeders." They train their own babies and usually sell the colts in a catalog sale and keep the fillies. Are they aweful people for breeding because they don't do it much and aren't in it for the money? I think not, they've got amazing horses that I would definitely be proud to own. 

If I was gonna stop someone from breeding their horses, I'd stop the people who don't care enough to geld/separate/feed their horses and just left them in a field uncared for and probably won't be cared for until the owners are forced to dump several skinny horses off at the sale and have to pay that sale back because they only bring 20 bucks a piece and the coggins/stall fee/base take is 43 bucks a horse just to drop them off at all...


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> Hang on a cotton pickin moment.......Some of us raise cattle ( when we are in the cattle business) in as ethical way as we can, please don't blame ALL of us for the crimes of a few.


 
I knew she was a peta person. You do realize its peta's goal for us to not even be able to own animals and as far as the agriculture world back the heck off farmers and ranchers have it hard enough with out the crud peta does to them. I you read your peta stuff all the way to the supermarket pick up the meat in the little pink package and take it home and cook it its about time yall realized just where you food came from and thank that farmer NOT make his hard life harder


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I have a couple of fillies that I want trained professionally. A gelding that was given to me. Very well bred.
The cheapest trainer I have found is 650 a month plus board of 450. It is expected that the horses will stay at least 6 months. If I want to show it is 900 for the weekend plus mileage and expenses.
Adding that to the thousands that I spent purchasing these mares would force me to breed them more often to see a return on my investment.
That doesnt include the lessons for me or the fee to have someone show my horses, then my expenses to get there.
As a business venture if I was looking at my bottom line then i would just breed and allow the buyer to assume all those expenses. Shalom


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

trainerunlimited said:


> I've got to kind of step in and say my opinion. You say don't breed a mare without a show record? Well, what about all the mares that were injured in training, or the owners had a lack of funds to put her in training and show her who then went on the be a heck of a producer?
> 
> Also, anything to do with horses can be a gamble, but if you have a well bred foal chances are, it won't end up in the slaughter pen if you take the time to train it. There is still a market down here for a riding horse, even if it is diminished from what it was.
> 
> ...


Haha, I guess I blew more steam off than I should have. I hope people weren't thinking I was throwing out the idea that whoever breeds their horses are selfish, etc. I certainly don't think they are, even my trainer breeds and sells horses. I may not agree with it but still.

While it is true that if only the big time breeders had foals then it would be too expensive, but you also said that if the mare got injured and couldn't be shown, etc. then you could breed. Which again is true, but like I said just because mom and dad are champions (or if mom had champion lines) doesn't mean baby is going to be.

Also if they couldn't afford to show their horse or even train it, how are they going to pay for the vet bills when it comes to having a mare?

I should be a bit more clear in what I say, I didn't really mean the show people, who give their foals a purpose, I guess I was more after the backyard breeders who breed their mares (who have mares with terrible conformation, etc.) to world champions.

But like I said, you can't predict everything. You could sell a really cool yearling that won lunge line classes, etc. and have one little accident and have the yearling never show again. But like you said there is a risk in everything in the equine world.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

One of the biggest reasons that I sold my breeding herd was the lack of funds, ability (mine) and time, to get out there and show my horses. 

Now freed from those constraints I can take my average mare, if I so desire, and breed her to the best I can. That would include the stud being a proven performer in the ring. To me it is the stud owners responsibility to have that guy out there proving himself, it is all part of the cost of breeding.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

TheAQHAGirl said:


> I should be a bit more clear in what I say, I didn't really mean the show people, who give their foals a purpose, I guess I was more after the backyard breeders who breed their mares (who have mares with terrible conformation, etc.) to world champions.


LOL another pet peeve, stud owners who can't say no. I was truly shocked when I posted pics of a mare that I said I was considering putting in foal to hear from the owner of a well known stud saying that her boy would throw a nice foal with my poorly conformed draft type grade mare, and offering his services. Most people said don't breed her...correct answer...somebody did suggest a nice stud, and out of interest I contacted the owner, who sent me a very nice email back turning me down. I still like her stud, and if I ever had a suitable mare I would use him in a heart beat. I do like a stud owner who does not see their boys sperm as merely a revenue source, but actually cares about the quality of foals that he would be putting on the ground.


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

Another thing to go along with this thread, is this is how i ended up with a colt!!!! My in-laws wanted horses, they found two for sale in the local add, and demanded i go to see them and what i thought of them. SO, i went and voiced my opinions and told them to get a vet out to do a PPE. They didn't, and so January the next year my SIL mare throws a filly in a snow storm!!!! I had no idea they were bred, previous owner never said a thing about it being a possibility (i thought that was funny due to the fact the stud was out at pasture with them!!). So i rushed out wrapped filly in towels and blankets and into the barn they went. Then came march and my FIL mare throws a colt in a horribly nasty rain storm!!! Once again i do the same thing. I had never been so mad in my entire life. I snapped on them for not calling a vet, and i wanted to find the girl who sold them to us and rip her a new one. I now own the colt. I did my best with both foals, and mares. But wow, it was a bad year for me. Meanwhile i had never raised a foal previous to this or had much if any experience with them. Thank heavens for my mother (whom bred her mare 4 times (2 colts now deceased and 2 still remaining), She told me everything to do and showed me everything. I'm happy to say my colt hasn't turned out to bad for my first. 
On to what we were discussing before!! LOL


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

The AQHAgirl you asked the question of how does one afford a horse if they do not show it. Very easily.
I have 28 horses here. I do not pay to board them, or buy hay since we grow our own,a nd only feed grain as a supplement. Shots, trimming hooves, vet care, grain. only cost me about a 1000 a month. Sometimes mor sometimes less.
I have never had a case of colic, any serious injury, and over half these horses are over 18. I have their teeth floated when needed and the retired horses are trimmed only 2 times a year. Our ground bakes so hard in the summer they basically self trim. I dont care what their feet look like if they are retired as long as they are a good angle.
They are allowed to be horses and not pampered.
I am also amazed at people who fear losing their mares so much they would never breed one. Yet they ride them Mares have very few problems foaling generally.
You place your mare at greater risk riding her i at more than a walk and a trot. Foaling is more natural for a mare than being ridden. Shalom


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm sorry DB, but you also think a horse would be smart enough to run away from a rabid animal. I'm going to stick with breeding a mare and foaling complications as being worse for a mare.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

About the losing a mare thing, it may depend on the mare, I_ liked_ all of my haffy mares, and were concerned that we had healthy mums and babies, so I got up and checked them and generally fussed over them. Ace I love unreasonably and simply would not risk foaling her out again, same as I no longer ride her, she is 20, sway backed, has a history of producing great foals, but has trouble carrying.

So I own 3 mares that COULD potentially be bred in the future, Angel, probably not, she is an end of line, all sorts of cute, going to be my saddle horse, never destined to reproduce.

Emmy, daughter of Ace, maybe, possibly, one day to Empress, don't know.

Willow, LOL, probably not, once again I bought Emmy cos I love her mum, and I really really like Emmy. Willow, thrust upon me, didn't want her, thought she was a PITA, all sorts of wrong for me, but HeyHo, another heart horse, love that witchy, ****y self opinionated girl, and would struggle to breed her.I also don't think that she would make a very good role model for a foal:rofl:


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

A lot of good points were brought up in the last few posts... My personal opinion is that studs need to be campaigned and proven to be good in all aspects in order to be considered stud worthy. If he can't earn 'em, he doesn't get to keep 'em.

Mares, on the other hand, I don't think need to be shown. However, you better have a darn good reason for breeding that mare, and not just because she's the only horse with a working uterus that you have.

Finally, when a horse does start breeding, I think there should be a history of proven foals, whether they're high-quality pleasure horses or top-notch competitive horses (By the way, it doesn't need to be a "show" horse to be a competitive horse - The worlds of 4-H, Rodeo, Working Cow Horse, Cowboy Challenges, Endurance, Competitive Trail Rides, etc. should all be included). Either way, the breeder should be able to show a track record of producing horses that went on and did _something_ in their lives.

To me, these, particularly their foals later accomplishments, show the quality I'm going to be buying if I go to that breeder. But these are just from a buyer standpoint, which I think is a valid point of view, since we're the ones that make breeding as profitable as it's going to be.

I HATE, however, the many people I see on CL and hear about that "yeah, I was breeding foals, but now I need to give them away or trade for hay because I'm out of money. Sure, you sold a horse or two to someone who didn't know better (or, in many cases, that bought your horse and called it a rescue). But that doesn't make you a qualified breeder - that makes you a slaughterhouse supplier.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

For all the people who think that if you breed two shown, well-conformed, pedigreed horses together, that you'll end up with a "perfect" foal, let me present my best friend's Arab gelding as a case against that line of thinking.

His registered name is Lika Quasar. He can be found on allbreedpedigree.com. This boy is bred out the wazoo. Bask is on his face papers multiple times. His dam is absolutely gorgeous and won at the Scottsdale World shows quite a few times. His sire is a great endurance horse (if I remember correctly). Both are well-put-together horses who have, for all intents and purposes, proven themselves. Then there's Siege. Poor guy is a conformational train wreck. When my friend had to order a custom saddle for him, the company required a withers tracing and pictures from multiple angles. When they received the pics, they called to say they had gotten them and then (not in a mean way) asked my best friend if there was any conformational defect Siege *didn't* have. He has been shifted from home to home until my friend got him from our BO. He started out with a lady who sent him to training, got him back, and saw his conformation when he was muscled up and promptly sold him (she thought he'd look better after putting on some muscle). He then went to a local doctor who had him trained for endurance. He finished 5th in his first 50-mile race (out of a field of 40), which apparently wasn't good enough, so they gave him to our BO as a horse for his (non-horsey) wife. Siege is a delicate soul, which was made worse by the fact that when the doctor owned him, they caught the skin on his side in the cinch buckle and rode him on a long training ride like that, so now he has a huge scar there and for the longest time (until my friend figured out how to handle him) would basically hyperventilate and pass out when being saddled. The BO's wife couldn't handle him, so he stood in his stall for five years, untouched, before the BO gave him to my best friend. For all his issues (conformational train wreck, allergic to alfalfa, the saddling thing), he's a damned good horse. He's hella fast (clocked doing 48mph at an easy gallop), an absolute sweetheart and just a great horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

I'm glad he eventually found a home - it's so sad when they're passed on like that, but he got lucky with your friend 

As someone already mentioned, you're always going to have culls even when you've had a lot of experience, proven stock, and a successful operation of any size. That's why I think people without that type of knowledge and experience shouldn't breed - if there's still a decent chance of getting a poor horse (conformationally or mentally or whatever) with an experienced breeder who knows what they're doing and have done well, then those risks are greatly increased (along with other types of risks) when your average horse owner decides to take breeding into their own hands.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Of course there is always a chance of some background genetic flaw cropping up. Happens when people reproduce, too. Should we stop? 
This is EXACTLY why inexperienced people with backyard ponies shouldn't breed. I might get a foal with a long back or whatever in my years of breeding, but the odds of me ever producing one to my neighbours draft/QH stallion breeding his morgan/TB mares are astronomical.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

You bring up a good point I hadn't even thought about - it's not just about how great the sire and dam are - it's what they could also pass on because it's hidden in their genes somewhere. As a breeder, I'd think you'd have to know each of your horses as well as their background to pick appropriate breedings based on what's in their entire pedigree and not just the two horses you have in front of you.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

MSbhavin my horses live in a herd enviroment. In the pasture 24/7. they have never been bitten by any wild animal and have enough sense to avoid any RABID animal exhibiting strange and aggressive behavior. Its called instinct.
Rabid animals that are aggressive growl and walk erractically. Any horse that allows one to get close enough to be bitten probably is not that smart .

I stand by my post if you choose not to agree then dont. Withover 3,000 acres and plenty of wild animals and no bites in 53 years I have been alive I am not tooo worried about it. Shalom


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

And there is a whole 'nother difficult question right there.....

If you are a serious breeder, and you have done all your homework, and you shorten all your odds by trying to breed the best to the best, and you still and up with a train wreck, well should you take it for a one way walk behind the barn?

Now don't start throwing things at me, it is just a topic that can be discussed, personally I couldn't, but I can see that some people could. If a horse is that badly put together that his life is going to be painful, his soundness maybe in question, or if he shows serious temperamental flaws at a young age, then maybe a quick and painless end would be merciful.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

In the 30 years that I have been breeding, and the 70 years that my family has raised QH's we have only lost a few foals and a couple of mares.
i have personally bred 25 foals in 30 years. i have only lost a couple. Only had 3 mares ever have complications.
foaling is generally safe. Ask any knowledgable VET or breeder. Shalom


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

jillybean19 said:


> You bring up a good point I hadn't even thought about - it's not just about how great the sire and dam are - it's what they could also pass on because it's hidden in their genes somewhere. As a breeder, I'd think you'd have to know each of your horses as well as their background to pick appropriate breedings based on what's in their entire pedigree and not just the two horses you have in front of you.


Absolutely. 
I love Bey Shah - one of my favourite sires and a phenomal broodmare producer. Once in a while you'd get a foal of his that had a club foot. Now you don't see if very often in his grand get anymore because of good breeding, but you ought to be aware of it. If you have a Salon bred get, you should be testing for CA as it carries through the lines. 
But you also got to know your pedigree strengths, as well. If I'm breeding for reiners I'm probably not going to cross my CMK mares on a main ring halter horse. Or if they were Quarter horses, I wouldn't cross a Gunner mare with, say, a Zippo Pine Bar horse and expect a world class reiner. 
Lot's of research goes into producing babies.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> And there is a whole 'nother difficult question right there.....
> 
> If you are a serious breeder, and you have done all your homework, and you shorten all your odds by trying to breed the best to the best, and you still and up with a train wreck, well should you take it for a one way walk behind the barn?
> 
> Now don't start throwing things at me, it is just a topic that can be discussed, personally I couldn't, but I can see that some people could. If a horse is that badly put together that his life is going to be painful, his soundness maybe in question, or if he shows serious temperamental flaws at a young age, then maybe a quick and painless end would be merciful.


To me, this is a reason you should expect to and be able to keep the foals you breed. If you can't afford that, then don't breed. If you chose to bring that horse into this world, you should be able to care for it. I think, if I were a breeder, I wouldn't be able to do so. Rather, I'd probably keep the horse on as a lesson horse or pet horse, and hopefully rehome it for a nominal fee to a little girl who just wants a horse to love and maybe even take to a 4-H home. But that wouldn't be possible if I couldn't afford to keep the horse and be willing to take a bit of a loss. I really liked Dreamcatcher's approach to this problem:



> I don't sell anything under $5K, won't even list it or discuss it. If I feel a horse isn't worth that much, then I will find it a good home and I will GIVE it to someone as a pet. I'm not in the Dollar General market for horse sales at all. I spend a lot of money acquiring good breeding stock and even owning sire & dam and doing my own collecting, inseminating and breeding without a vet, I still can't put a foal on the ground and make anything if I sell for less than that.
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-bre...roductive-organs-148212/page10/#ixzz2H817R1kq


That's coming from someone who recognizes the risks involved in breeding and being prepared to deal with the consequences, whatever they may be.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> And there is a whole 'nother difficult question right there.....
> 
> If you are a serious breeder, and you have done all your homework, and you shorten all your odds by trying to breed the best to the best, and you still and up with a train wreck, well should you take it for a one way walk behind the barn?
> 
> Now don't start throwing things at me, it is just a topic that can be discussed, personally I couldn't, but I can see that some people could. If a horse is that badly put together that his life is going to be painful, his soundness maybe in question, or if he shows serious temperamental flaws at a young age, then maybe a quick and painless end would be merciful.


Depends.
If it were a conformation flaw that would make them completely unsound for the rest of their lives, euthanasia is probably the best option. 
If it's a conformation flaw that is only going to keep them out of the breeding and show ring, I would market them accordingly. Being broke as a kids lead line or therapeutic riding pony is just as productive as a life as winning ribbons.
Once again, just responsible breeding decisions. You take care of what you produce.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

How often/what are the chances of you getting a horse with such a bad conformation flaw that it really couldn't be productive for anything, including being a therapeutic or kids horse? And what would those flaws be?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jillybean19 said:


> You bring up a good point I hadn't even thought about - it's not just about how great the sire and dam are - it's what they could also pass on because it's hidden in their genes somewhere. As a breeder, I'd think you'd have to know each of your horses as well as their background to pick appropriate breedings based on what's in their entire pedigree and not just the two horses you have in front of you.


^^^^^THIS!

I grew up carrying stud books under my arm and studying every horse in them. Taking notes on traits and faults each possessed and memorizing certain looks. I'd get 'tested' frequently because my daddy or one of the old timers around the place would ask me things about breeding certain of our horses to see what I'd say. I'd tell them my thoughts and they'd come back with more info on why they would or wouldn't breed a certain pair, and I learned to look waaaaaay back in the pedigrees and while not overly concerned, I'd keep certain things in the back of my mind while planning breedings. 

Now that I'm an adult, and decided to get into Arabs from thoroughbreds, I had to do the same thing with Arab pedigrees. And no matter how much you study, and how much you plan, and all the pitfalls you avoid, you still hit some pot holes. 

I'm going to apologize to Magic Dream (Ali Jamaal) and El Shaklan fans before I make my next statement. I love both, but separately and would NEVER cross those 2 blood lines again. We were in the Magic Dream syndicate and thus had several breedings to use each year. I sold a lot of the breedings but I used a few too. As I've said before, I am small and stay small on purpose. So, I was looking for a good mare to use my Magic breeding on and found a lovely mare for a breed lease (something else I'll never do again but that's a whole 'nuther thread altogether). She was a Sanadik El Shaklan daughter out of an Aristocrat mare, a US Nationals winner herself. So, we made the arrangements and put the mare in foal to Magic. 11 months later, I get a gorgeous little filly. To say this filly was high strung was being kind and understated. I still own this mare, she's just now 9 years old and she's leaving next month to try and get her saddle broke because I believe they should ALL wear leather. 

She is a complete DING BAT. Not a mean bone in her body but, GAWD A'MIGHTY she can be a ditz. The Ali Jamaal breeders say it's El Shaklan's fault. El Shaklan breeders say it's Ali Jamaal's fault. All I know is, separately, they are both great animals, Magic AND Sanadik. I met both in the flesh many times. Together? OH HE!! NO! She's gorgeous, she's sweet and she's a wonderful producer. Her foals are gorgeous and sweet and because I'm VERY careful about breeding to really sensible stallions, they come out sensible and not ditzes. I have since met several Ali Jamaal and El Shaklan cross horses and guess what? They have all been complete idiots. They grow up and get better but ........yeah, NO! Since when I did that cross I hadn't seen it done before or met previous crosses on those lines, I didn't know what was going to happen and Dreamlet was the result. I love her, and I've learned how to handle her when she's being silly but would I do it twice? Not on your life. I've had 2 colts who were absolutely LOVELY and smart and utterly sensible. I have 1 filly who is a little more like her mom, but very easy to settle down and handle and most important, she shows no signs of the ADHD that has really been a bane for Dreamlet. 

I showed Dreamlet once at Scottsdale and she did well. BUT! She obviously was very unhappy and she was tough to get through the class. No more halter for her. As a youngster of an age to start under saddle, the trainers laughed at me. "Oh, you want her started do you? Who you gonna get to do that?" . Yeah, so, finally I have a guy who will try. I think once she's under saddle she'll like, she's very curious and would love to go on trail, I think. And I think would be fun to ride......Unless she forgets she has a rider......


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Endurance, maybe? lol - as long as they can be reasonable about spookiness and can follow a trail (it took a near fall off a cliff before my horse figured out that's what that clear line between the bushes was for), they tend to do ok lol


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Pat, do you know how long I looked for my boys that had neither of those bloodlines? LOL


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I knew she was a peta person. You do realize its peta's goal for us to not even be able to own animals and as far as the agriculture world back the heck off farmers and ranchers have it hard enough with out the crud peta does to them. I you read your peta stuff all the way to the supermarket pick up the meat in the little pink package and take it home and cook it its about time yall realized just where you food came from and thank that farmer NOT make his hard life harder


EXCUSE ME really wow you are piece of work I am sorry you are going through something right now but that is no way to pin point someone LIKE I SAID in a previous post I DO NOT support peta, Not eating meat was a choice of my own for dietary reasons. 
Do you like getting attention picking on people who cares if someone is in peta that is their choice GROW UP. 

This is from the post coming from that one..
Unfortunately you are the few(left). Like usual on a thread people jump to conclusions. I am not here to explain the WHOLE cattle industry. It is a crime that small farmers are being left in the dust because of the big AR farmers. We need more small local farms.
Reason I said EVERYONE involved. Small and local farms , those who eat it, those who transport it, those who slaughter it, the cattle ect.

I was not in any way saying stop eating meat. I wish people were more informed by the industry and the quality of meat they buy. 

Please think before you post something like that or actually go through the thread.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

This thread has more jumps and emotions in it then a bi-polar, schizophrenic person locked in a psyche ward. 
I'm so impressed it's stayed civil this long. LOL


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## chubbypony (Dec 18, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> This thread has more jumps and emotions in it then a bi-polar, schizophrenic person locked in a psyche ward.
> I'm so impressed it's stayed civil this long. LOL


Hahaha 
I like to stay civil/mature and im sorry to everyone that I went totally off topic but I will not be labeled nor label others.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> This thread has more jumps and emotions in it then a bi-polar, schizophrenic person locked in a psyche ward.
> I'm so impressed it's stayed civil this long. LOL


Who are you calling civil??? I think I'm a touch more Sybil:rofl::rofl:


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

chubbypony said:


> Hahaha
> I like to stay civil/mature and im sorry to everyone that I went totally off topic but I will not be labeled nor label others.


Not sure how much more off topic you can get then BBQ's and California weather. LOL


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Who are you calling civil??? I think I'm a touch more Sybil:rofl::rofl:


You're a Saskatachewanian; you can't be civil! :shock:
I know, my sister had to move there. Poor Sask. :lol:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> Pat, do you know how long I looked for my boys that had neither of those bloodlines? LOL


Well, I love Ali Jamaal and I love Sanadik but not together. Magic Dream is a lovely stallion and very sensible, none of the other foals I bred with him were ever a problem child. :lol:


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians I have heard the same thing from another breeder about the Ali Jamaal line crossed on others.
I bet that mare is very nice though. Shalom


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

You mean horse tartare and BBQ ribs is civil? And now we have a Sybil from Saskatachewan.... Though you're not completely out of place in this crowd lol. We might have a few more Sybils running around on this forum from what I've read!

And I was amazed at how well we kept one main thread going with the one or two sub-discussions that were largely ignored by everyone else haha.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Well, I love Ali Jamaal and I love Sanadik but not together. Magic Dream is a lovely stallion and very sensible, none of the other foals I bred with him were ever a problem child. :lol:


Oh, nothing against either stallion. Magic Dream is an incredible horse and phenomenal producer. I just find they are getting so over used. Sort of the the Bessons and Psyches... they're everywhere! LOL


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

jillybean19 said:


> You mean horse tartare and BBQ ribs is civil? And now we have a Sybil from Saskatachewan.... Though you're not completely out of place in this crowd lol. We might have a few more Sybils running around on this forum from what I've read!
> 
> And I was amazed at how well we kept one main thread going with the one or two sub-discussions that were largely ignored by everyone else haha.


Aww, man... I just googled Tartare... That's gnarly. :shock:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> Oh, nothing against either stallion. Magic Dream is an incredible horse and phenomenal producer. I just find they are getting so over used. Sort of the the Bessons and Psyches... they're everywhere! LOL


Well, we sold Magic to S. Africa several years ago, so there aren't anymore MD babies in this country.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Well, we sold Magic to S. Africa several years ago, so there aren't anymore MD babies in this country.


I've seen a few Magic Dream daughters for sale in the US, and there's a stallion not too far from me. 
One of the daughters I fell in love with. Stunning.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> You're a Saskatachewanian; you can't be civil! :shock:
> I know, my sister had to move there. Poor Sask. :lol:


It's all this flat land it gets to us!

Where did she move to? Watch out AB, I may be coming to visit this week, gotta take a run to Riley (cross fingers and hope)


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

jillybean19 said:


> How often/what are the chances of you getting a horse with such a bad conformation flaw that it really couldn't be productive for anything, including being a therapeutic or kids horse? And what would those flaws be?


Contracted tendons are a big one. Physitis is another, which is swelling of the growth plates. 
Contracted tendons may be okay if you can resolve the issue right away, but when they get combined with Physitis, you're sorta hooped.

I know of a HUGE AQHA/APHA reining stallion right now that is passing on both these traits, and people are still paying stupid amounts of money to breed to him. For a chance? H#ll no. Stupid, you ask me.


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> The AQHAgirl you asked the question of how does one afford a horse if they do not show it. Very easily.
> I have 28 horses here. I do not pay to board them, or buy hay since we grow our own,a nd only feed grain as a supplement. Shots, trimming hooves, vet care, grain. only cost me about a 1000 a month. Sometimes mor sometimes less.
> I have never had a case of colic, any serious injury, and over half these horses are over 18. I have their teeth floated when needed and the retired horses are trimmed only 2 times a year. Our ground bakes so hard in the summer they basically self trim. I dont care what their feet look like if they are retired as long as they are a good angle.
> They are allowed to be horses and not pampered.
> ...


I think you may have misread what I said.

I meant to say is how can a person not afford to show but yet can afford to breed.

While both can be expensive I've always thought showing was less expensive than breeding. But of course, I've only shown. I haven't bred before and I was told to have at least $5,000 for breeding minus stud fee.

But what you say is true, a mare in foal is more natural than riding, etc.

In a way, I can be flexible with this subject but I still feel that there could always be problems, etc. Like I've said, I would love to breed my filly. Other than her age (she's 3) I feel like she has qualifications and if I bred her to a great stallion, and if I were to breed her I would choose a good stallion, and if sometime came where I had to sell the baby I'm sure I could easily sell it. 

However I would do whatever is in my power to keep it. 

But I'm just too scared. I know now we are more advanced than what we were in the past, etc. We can determine things better and so on. But I just don't feel the need to breed. 

I don't see how you can make a lot of money off of it. I know a lot of people do it as a living. The place where I bought my horse from said that he doesn't get much money off of it. However he breeds, trains, and sells. And when he does breed, he breeds the good horses.

I don't know, I'm just touchy about this subject. If done right I'm okay. But with the economy, the recent drought (however I'm sure that is in the past), and the rise of horses. I don't see the need to breed. 

If there were less horses in the world, or if I had a rare horse then I wouldn't feel the way I do feel now. 

But hey, accidents happen. In foal or not. I forgot but there was a stallion who had a very promising show career, he had a trailer accident and couldn't show. Same way with mares in foal, but from what I have been told by a vet it doesn't happen that much.

I would need some strong convincing from anyone to want me to breed my filly.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> It's all this flat land it gets to us!
> 
> Where did she move to? Watch out AB, I may be coming to visit this week, gotta take a run to Riley (cross fingers and hope)


It must be the flat land. Or, as they say, the agony of watching your dog run away from you for a week. LOL
She went to... I'm actually not sure. I'll have to check. LOL

Just stay away from southern Alberta! We can't let out secret out. :shock:


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

move to sask. and watch your dog run away for three days. I do find the many different floats this thread has taken to be interesting. 

We had a mare a few years ago who was a bit of a nutter. She had a less then ideal starting (mare and foal came back from the stud farm emaciated). The foal was WILD and that was a legal battle over the condition of the mare. I always wondered if it was the genes or the initial lack of training. The mare is sweet but the filly was wired, very pretty but hot. To hot to be a race horse.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

WSArabians said:


> Contracted tendons are a big one. Physitis is another, which is swelling of the growth plates.
> Contracted tendons may be okay if you can resolve the issue right away, but when they get combined with Physitis, you're sorta hooped.
> 
> I know of a HUGE AQHA/APHA reining stallion right now that is passing on both these traits, and people are still paying stupid amounts of money to breed to him. For a chance? H#ll no. Stupid, you ask me.


 
Which one is it?


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> MSbhavin my horses live in a herd enviroment. In the pasture 24/7. they have never been bitten by any wild animal and have enough sense to avoid any RABID animal exhibiting strange and aggressive behavior. Its called instinct.
> Rabid animals that are aggressive growl and walk erractically. Any horse that allows one to get close enough to be bitten probably is not that smart .
> 
> I stand by my post if you choose not to agree then dont. Withover 3,000 acres and plenty of wild animals and no bites in 53 years I have been alive I am not tooo worried about it. Shalom



*headdesk*
Rabid animals only act like that in LATE stages. How do you not understand that?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

MsBHavin said:


> *headdesk*
> How do you not understand that?


Rabies???


Sorry only joking, wanders off looking for ribs,or wine, or anything else that need to be eaten before tomorrow night


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Which one is it?


I'll PM you.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Rabies???
> 
> 
> Sorry only joking, wanders off looking for ribs,or wine, or anything else that need to be eaten before tomorrow night


Tartare? :shock::lol:


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

This is an interesting thread. When I read it, it made me think of someone I knew growing up. There was a farm near where I grew up that had no business breeding. When I was young, the farm owner's daughter and I were friends and consequently, my mom also ended up being friends with her. We bought a filly from her that ended up being so dangerous to ride as an adult, that we eventually sold her. I always wonder if that mare's issues had anything to do with either her mom not receiving adequate nutrition while carrying her, if she herself was lacking something as a youngster or if there was some abuse in her background that we were not aware of. Some years later, the farm owner was convicted of fraud (not to do with horses) and put under house arrest for several years. Then, last year, her horses were in such terrible condition, she was reported to the SPCA and most were taken away. She is listed on the SPCA website and is not allowed to own more than a certain number of horses for the next 5 years. Needless to say, we have "lost touch."

I think, initially like most people, her intentions were good. We found out later that her husband was an abusive deadbeat, she was doing all of the farm work herself and I think she just couldn't keep up anymore. Despite this, she still continued to breed until she either couldn't afford to feed her horses or was spread too thin and couldn't keep up with their maintenance. At some point, she had to have known it wasn't working and made the decision to give up the operation if only for the poor horses' sake. Unfortunately, I would suspect there are many others like her out there. 

I plan on breeding my mare this spring and it's not something I have taken lightly. I literally sat down and created a list of all of the possible scenarios and costs that I could think of. My mare is a pinto, so in order to have a registerable foal, I need to breed to either Pinto or Paint. I did many months of research, found a Paint stud for a reasonable fee who has good conformation & fairly decent bloodlines. I then went out to see him and meet the owner so I could see what type of farm it was and get a feel for who the owner was as well. I also wanted to see the stallion in person and what his temperament was like. I had a very knowledgeable friend come with me and she agreed that he would be a good match for my mare and that his conformation and temperament were good. 

I plan on keeping the foal forever, however, knowing that life can throw curve balls my parents have agreed that they would be able to take the foal if needed. Always wanting a back-up to my back-up, I have a long-time friend who owns a farm with horses who has said in any instance, if I can't keep mare or foal, she would take them on until either my circumstances changed or I was able to sell. 

I have been in contact with my vet for what it would cost to have her ultrasounded, palpated, etc. and also their availability should I need their assistance in an emergency. I've also called many feed supply stores to find out the cost of mare & foal feed and also keep an eye on hay prices. I've recorded all potential and current costs in a spreadsheet and also have money set aside should I find myself needing an emergency vet. I have just sent away hair samples to test my mare for OLWS, just for my own knowledge and have copies of the genetic tests done on the stud stating he is OLWS N/N and HYPP N/N. As her due date draws closer, I will also be preparing a foaling kit. 

I like to think I have done my very best to ensure the health and happiness of both mare and foal, however, there are always the "unexpecteds" and I've probably forgotten something too, which I'm sure all of you fine HF friends will politely inform me.  When I tell non-horse people all of the time and energy I've put in to just planning, they can't believe it! The response I usually get is "Can't you just put them together and get a baby? Why all of this work?" 

Sorry for the long post, but I think it is useful for those like me, who don't breed horses for a living and are perhaps unaware of all of its intricacies to see all of the time, work & money needed before the foal is even born!


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## anniegirl (Oct 7, 2012)

Well said Glynnis!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

THEAQHAGIRL I understand your reluctance to breed your mare. That alone is your decision. the same as it is for any mare owner. 
Breeding is not that expensive for me.
It is probably cheaper for me to breed than buy the horses that I have.
i have spent tens of thousands of dollars in the last 3 years buying my stallion and a few new broodmares to add new bloodlines to my herd. It does not cost that much to raise a foal here. My only cost are grain, vaccinations, trimming their hooves, and a few miscelaneous expenses.
I do not ultra sound the mares that i own my stallion covers. Twins are rare and in the time my family and i have bred horses we have yet to have any. my stallion is the best indicator of heat that money can buy. My stallion is negative on all known genetic disorders common to arabians so i do not test my mares. It only cost me a couple of thousand dollars to raise a foal. that is my reasoning for breeding my own foals.
MSbehavin you are uneducated in the way any brain functions. Animal or human. It takes very little impairment of the brain to cause any animal or human the inability to function normally. A rabies is a disease that causes the brain to malfunction. Your ridiculous disruptions have no business on this thread. Shalom


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> THEAQHAGIRL I understand your reluctance to breed your mare. That alone is your decision. the same as it is for any mare owner.
> Breeding is not that expensive for me.
> It is probably cheaper for me to breed than buy the horses that I have.
> i have spent tens of thousands of dollars in the last 3 years buying my stallion and a few new broodmares to add new bloodlines to my herd. It does not cost that much to raise a foal here. My only cost are grain, vaccinations, trimming their hooves, and a few miscelaneous expenses.
> ...


And you are uneducated on MANY things. Rabies and a simple ultra sound to prevent twinning. All to what? Save some money? 
I find it hard to believe you are as knowledgeable as you claim seeing as you don't understand rabies, which is pretty simple. 

This is from the CDC
"The rabies virus infects the central nervous system, ultimately causing disease in the brain and death. The early symptoms of rabies in people are similar to that of many other illnesses, including fever, headache, and general weakness or discomfort. *As the disease progresses*, more specific symptoms appear and may include insomnia, anxiety, confusion, slight or partial paralysis, excitation, hallucinations, agitation, hypersalivation (increase in saliva), difficulty swallowing, and hydrophobia (fear of water). Death usually occurs within days of the onset of these symptoms.'"

CDC - Rabies

Animals that get rabies and do NOT show the later symptoms until it is in the last stages. Not sure how much easier I could make that for you.

(mod edit)


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Rabies actually presents such symptoms (hyperactivity/hypersensitivity- aka- aggression) day 3-4- early on. In most cases, lethargy is the usual presentation. After that, paralysis of neurons begins. Death is usually in 10-12 days, which would be later stages..
In all my years as an RN working in ER and ICU as a travelling RN all over the east coast, I've never had to treat one case, and my trainer has never had a case in 45 years. Her horses are frequently pastured- some 24/7.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Hmmmmm ribs nom nom nom! LOL!

However on a serious note here:

We have a QH mare at our barn, she's built like a brick ****house, and I do believe she was a halter horse......when I initially saw her I thought 'oh my, what a pretty horse.....however on further inspection, she's a train wreck!

Turns out she has Impressive on both sides of her breeding (waaaaay back), she has huge bulges on her forehead, her eyes look like she's constantly in a state of surprise or shock:shock:......and now she is starting to tie-up, fall over randomly, sweat and shake on and off.......she's only 8 years old......and she has Impressive in her lines.....how on earth did that happen? She is now being tested for HYPP......why on earth she wasn't tested earlier I have no idea.......I do believe she is being tested for some other genetically carried disorders......
Just to note also.....she's about as smart as your average tree.....

This is when breeding crosses the line........when the horses start popping out looking like and acting like they're inbred.....


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I have not read all of the posts, and am not sure how the subject of rabies even made it here, but here is my take on rabies.

All of the horses in my care get rabies shots. North Carolina has a horrible rabies problem and horses contracting it are not unknown. Horses are very curious creatures. If an animal comes around that they can't quite figure out, they tend to approach them to check them out. I see this happen. I see them "check out" plastic bags and anything else they have decided might not be exactly deadly. 

A raccoon (our most common rabies vector) of fox that is in the later stages of rabies will often be walking in circles and flopping around. Horses WILL approach and sniff at them. This is how they get bitten. 

This article was written several years ago. The cases of equine rabies has gone up the last couple of years.

Rabies in horse, donkey prompt warnings | Horsetalk - International horse news

So, while not common, it happens. Why would you give a dog that might only be outside on occasion a shot, and not your horse that is out all the time? Makes little sense. It is cheap insurance to avoid a HORRIBLE death.

Sorry if this is a hijack and if the subject of rabies was just a tiny part of it. Rabies and botulism are two shots given to horses in my care, due to the fact that *MY AREA* has these two problems in spades.

Msbhavin, there is no need to be so rude in your response.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Muppetgirl said:


> This is when breeding crosses the line........when the horses start popping out looking like and acting like they're inbred.....


You know that in breeding practices they say, "If it works it's linebreeding, if it doesn't it's inbreeding.". In her case, sounds like it didn't work so well.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

WSArabians said:


> Depends.
> If it were a conformation flaw that would make them completely unsound for the rest of their lives, euthanasia is probably the best option.
> If it's a conformation flaw that is only going to keep them out of the breeding and show ring, I would market them accordingly. Being broke as a kids lead line or therapeutic riding pony is just as productive as a life as winning ribbons.
> Once again, just responsible breeding decisions. You take care of what you produce.


Exactly! My gelding was bred to to be a Halter horse stud. Halter horse stud he is not..... slightly goofy, wonderful riding horse that I dabble in Dressage with and go trail raiding? That he is! 

There's no doubt his breeder lost a crapton of $$$ on my horse but when he realized he wasn't what he bred for, he gave him to a trainer who gave him a good start and then sold him to me. Other than a really stupid registered name (as he was obviously named prior to the realization that he is definitely not halter horse or stud material), I ended up with one heckuva good horse at a really good price.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You know that in breeding practices they say, "If it works it's linebreeding, if it doesn't it's inbreeding.". In her case, sounds like it didn't work so well.


Haha yeah, well since I've been indoctrinated int the world of QHs, EVERYTIME someone is talking about how a horse is bred and they mention a horse having the same sire/dam on the top and bottom, or you look at the papers and all the names look the same (ie: peppy this or that, or doc bar) I start thinking to myself, holy cow this horses dad is her brother and her uncle and her grand pappy! LOL!!!! 
I'm no expert in how they line breed, but I do know that after you keep breeding within the same gene pool for a while that the gene pool gets smaller and smaller and smaller........kinda like some culture and I'm not going to say which ones! LOL! .....they marry within the same family for years on end and you get genetically flawed individuals and diseases running rampart through whole families.....in fact I heard of one family having a very high rate of a specific cancer among the woman.....they all get it because they are marrying within the same gene pool.....


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Delfina said:


> Exactly! My gelding was bred to to be a Halter horse stud. Halter horse stud he is not.....
> t when he realized he wasn't what he bred for, he gave him to a trainer who gave him a good start and then sold him to me..



That is unfortunately the problem. Too many people are NOT seeing that studlykins is not breeding quality. Same with mares. There is a reason you didn't pay top dollar for your stud, cause he isn't stud quality and the owners were too lazy to geld him. If he's got no names in his pedigree, except for maybe one waaaaaay back, what makes you think he's worthy of breeding? Cause people online 'oooh and ahh' over him? Thats a forum, people 'oooh and ahh'h over every horse, geldings as well


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Allow me to assure everyone my horses receive ALL their annual shots. I have the VET bills to prove it. To imply that I do not is false.
You can breed your mare without incurring thousands of dollars in expenses.
MSBhavn
Twins are rare in equines and I do not feel the risk is that great. Mares owned by others that are bred to my stallion must have an ultra sound to comply with the breeding contract. I have my mares that are bred to any outside stallion checked in foal also.
Whatever risk any mare owner feels is too great to ignore or not that is their business. Shalom


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## Arab Mama (Jun 10, 2012)

MsBHavin said:


> There is a reason you didn't pay top dollar for your stud, cause he isn't stud quality and the owners were too lazy to geld him. If he's got no names in his pedigree, except for maybe one waaaaaay back, what makes you think he's worthy of breeding?


Not necessarily. She may not have paid top dollar because perhaps the breeder knew that the stud was not very marketable because of what the current market demands. Even if a horse doesn't have a well known pedigree, his/her own accomplishments might make him/her worthy of breeding. 

I also want to comment on the rabies issue. I boarded at a barn once that a rabid animal managed to get into. All the horses that weren't vaccinated were placed in quarantine until they proved negative for rabies. One boarder did lose her horse unfortunately. With rabies vaccines being so reasonably priced, I can't imagine why people don't routinely vaccinate for it.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I will comment on the rabies situation because I have seen a horse with the rabies virus. They were a person in town who did not vaccinate, and I assisted on the vet calls. They had a fox, a coyote and possum on the property. Something bit the horse. In the space of a day and half the diagnosis went from going in to labor (the owner), to colic, to rabies. All the horse wanted to do was bite. When it could not bite something/someone it would bite itself. It would grab its front leg and flip itself over. The result was it breaking its leg. I can't even describe what that horse looked like, it was the saddest and most pathetic looking animal. It was clearly exhausted and wanted to die but it was compelled to try to bite the doctor till the very end. The horse was euthanized and its head removed and sent to the state for testing. The entire barn was put under quarantine for six months. All people in the barn were given post exposure which runs about 1000 dollars for a single shot. Its usually a series of 3-5 vaccines depending on your vaccine status. To have your animal tested for rabies means the euthanasia and testing cost (around 200 dollars). You are looking at 300-400 dollars for one animal. The rabies vaccine which is highly affective is around 20 bucks. 

Animals with rabies will typically go through a normal phase, an aggressive phase and at the very end a paralytic phase. The speed at which an animal passes through these phases is individual dependent. As a result, a prey animal may not be able to avoid a rabid animal particularly when and if confined to an enclosure.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Arab Mama said:


> Not necessarily. She may not have paid top dollar because perhaps the breeder knew that the stud was not very marketable because of what the current market demands. Even if a horse doesn't have a well known pedigree, his/her own accomplishments might make him/her worthy of breeding.


And if the new owner has no plans to train him only to breed, what would you think then? Another ho hum horse, adding to a bloated market
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

One last comment about rabid animals and my horses.
My horses live in pastures that are 10-250 acres. My stallions PEN is 3 acres. My horses can avoid any animal and do since they are not kept in any stalls. There are plenty of wild animals on the 3,000 acres here. Including plenty of coyotes a black bear and cougar tracks by the creeks . 
Our cattle are not vaccinated nor are any of the thousands of others in this county . In my 53 years I have only kn own of one cow that was infected and 2 dogs that I have personally witnessed
My comment that was taken out of context was about my horses avoiding any animal and that they have plenty of room to do so. 

Only if you are showing a horse, and most people that own one do not, does a show record matter. I would not breed to any horse just because it was a World Champion in halter, or any of the 'pleasure" classes.
Since I do not consider "pleasure classes" to be performance i would not be impressed by a world champion.
Conformation should be the first thing to look at when deciding to breed. It is the best indicator of potential performance. Shalom


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

If you live in an area that rabies is prevalent you should vaccinate for it as for west nile, and what ever other diseases in your area. Vaccines are not a 100% guaranty that the animal will not get the disease. Each animal owner is responsible for the care and treatment of their animals.

As for show records, all that means to me is an animal can perform in an arena. I would much rather have a horse that is safe and sane out in the real world, that I can take anywhere, through anything, over anything and not have to worry about it spooking or acting up and getting someone or themselves hurt or killed. In other words a horse that is usable not just a pretty ornament, one that doesn't have to be drugged up to use or treated for ulcers because it's so stressed out because of being shown all the time or kept in a stall because the owner doesn't want it to get dirty or blemished in some way.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Dreamcatcher Arabians I have heard the same thing from another breeder about the Ali Jamaal line crossed on others.
> I bet that mare is very nice though. Shalom


DB, she's lovely and she's sweet. And she rides the short trailer. LOL! The thing I've noticed about this cross, in her and others, is when they freak out if you can't get them distracted and calmed down right away, you better just clear the decks. Once they get past a certain point when they're scaling up the anxiety ladder, they just can't seem to come back to earth until they run out of adrenaline. I've learned to very quickly and VERY quietly get her focused on me and that nips these little anxiety moments in the bud but if you miss your chance.....Katy, bar the door! They seem to lose every bit of common sense and forget that anyone is in the pen with them, and just focus on whatever the anxiety trigger is. And since she's a LOT bigger than your average Arab, she can be a whole lot of horse to handle.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I like a horse to have a show record, not necessarily be a World Champ or anything like that, but if the horse has shown extensively and done fairly well, then it tells me he's been away from the house and can handle a certain amount of distraction. I also don't like 'hot house flower' horses, so I want to know they've been out on trail or worked cows or something AWAY from an arena but that's harder to track. 

Most horses I have known can be sane enough to work in an arena environment, not all are sane enough to make it away from the security of the arena. That's something I insist on in my horses that I keep for my pleasure, they HAVE to do both.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Dreamcatcher, the arabian gelding I was given this fall fits the description of your mare to a T.
He is a Spainish/Polish gelding. He is a big boy too 15.3 and stout.
I am not discounting a show record and your post about horses that show being able to handle stress and different enviroments is logical. 
I am also concerned about the trends that arise then evaporate in todays show ring concerning certain bloodlines. Give me the old reliable ones that have proven themselves for generations. Shalom


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Druydess said:


> Rabies actually presents such symptoms (hyperactivity/hypersensitivity- aka- aggression) day 3-4- early on. In most cases, lethargy is the usual presentation. After that, paralysis of neurons begins. Death is usually in 10-12 days, which would be later stages..
> In all my years as an RN working in ER and ICU as a travelling RN all over the east coast, I've never had to treat one case, and my trainer has never had a case in 45 years. Her horses are frequently pastured- some 24/7.


 
Heck most of us have those symptoms of the first 3-4 days its called PMS..****


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

MsBHavin said:


> That is unfortunately the problem. Too many people are NOT seeing that studlykins is not breeding quality. Same with mares. There is a reason you didn't pay top dollar for your stud, cause he isn't stud quality and the owners were too lazy to geld him. If he's got no names in his pedigree, except for maybe one waaaaaay back, what makes you think he's worthy of breeding? Cause people online 'oooh and ahh' over him? Thats a forum, people 'oooh and ahh'h over every horse, geldings as well





Arab Mama said:


> Not necessarily. She may not have paid top dollar because perhaps the breeder knew that the stud was not very marketable because of what the current market demands. Even if a horse doesn't have a well known pedigree, his/her own accomplishments might make him/her worthy of breeding.


My horse is bred out the wazoo. His sire is a 4x world champion halter horse who is now being trained in other disciplines. His dam is also extremely well bred and accomplished.



MsBHavin said:


> And if the new owner has no plans to train him only to breed, what would you think then? Another ho hum horse, adding to a bloated market
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, what I bought what is a SHORT gelding. His breeder is 6'6" I believe, if not taller? I have a fine-boned 14.2hh "pony" of a horse. His breeder was extremely disappointed because he wasn't stud material AND he would look absolutely ridiculous riding him. Neither his dam nor sire were short.... he's just the lemon of the horse world!

He shipped him all way out here to a trainer that could use him. She started him and used him a lesson horse for older teens and when the economy went to crud and then the drought hit, she started looking for good homes for some of her horses. We went to see a dead-broke, older gelding of hers and when a midget-sized adult with a reputable trainer appeared on her property she offered to let us try him out instead. She wasn't going to sell him because as a pony-sized horse he would most likely end up being passed from home to home his entire life as teens outgrew him. Oh and should I ever be unable to keep him, she'll come take him back. She stays in contact with me as she never "wanted" to sell him but realistically selling him instead of a dead-broke horse made way more sense for her lesson program.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Not sure where you went with that since your horses breeder did the right thing by gelding AND finding him a nice home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Heck most of us have those symptoms of the first 3-4 days its called PMS..****


HAHAHA!! :clap:

Some even foam at the mouth.. :wink:


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Wow, this thread has taken so many different directions! I've lost the original poster of this comment (one of our Arabian friends I Think), but I like the logic of having some knowledge of the horse outside of the arena, but sometimes showing doesn't always help! My sister's mare was an A circuit show horse before we bought her and had perfect manners in an arena. Outside, she would spook at anything from clumps of grass, to a shovel leaning on the fence.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Glynnis said:


> Wow, this thread has taken so many different directions! I've lost the original poster of this comment (one of our Arabian friends I Think), but I like the logic of having some knowledge of the horse outside of the arena, but sometimes showing doesn't always help! My sister's mare was an A circuit show horse before we bought her and had perfect manners in an arena. Outside, she would spook at anything from clumps of grass, to a shovel leaning on the fence.


Just goes to show-- no one thing or certain preconceived criteria we narrow-minded humans hold dear- accurately represents the true value and talent of our equines.
They deserve to be evaluated and respected based on their own unique merits. :wink:


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Arab Mama said:


> Not necessarily. She may not have paid top dollar because perhaps the breeder knew that the stud was not very marketable because of what the current market demands. Even if a horse doesn't have a well known pedigree, his/her own accomplishments might make him/her worthy of breeding.


Very true.

I just picked up a mare by request as the owner is terminal. She has been in the business for > 50 years..in her 70's now. Her horses were/are valuable- well trained, and well bred. She would- in her last days- preferred they went to people she knew- even though they could have bought decent money. What does money matter when you're dead?..her words. She'd rather know her horses were taken care of properly. They would have otherwise eventually gone to auction.
Therefore- I have been blessed to have acquired a lovely mare-- well bred- dead broke- WP/Dressage trained, good show record.. and to belittle all that this woman put into her and the mare's own accomplishments, because of life's circumstances and lack of insanely high purchase price- is small minded, prejudicial, and short-sighted, not to mention entirely myopic.

Value is in the horse- not the coin.

My new lovely Khassie-- Crabbet-bred mare:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Not everyone can afford to pay top dollar for their stud, and there is another way to get a start...cheat like I did.

I bought a stallion with a show record, Silver Classified with the Haflinger Registry, proven breeder, at a great price. I still paid more for him than I have paid for any other horse, but he was a teenager. He had been at the same stud for many years, and she had liked his get so much that she found herself retaining his daughters. When she found a stallion who she believed would compliment those mares, she made the difficult decision to sell her boy.

I can't recommend it enough for the novice, I got a stallion that someone else had done the hard work with, she had got him out there and proved him. She had brought him up to be a good citizen so even a numpty like me could handle him. 

That is the way to make a start in the breeding world:wink:


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Goden Horse that is exactly how I bought my stallion. He was much cheaper than he would have been but due to the market and the drought I basically stole him. he sold for 10,000 as a 3 month old. double that as a 2 YO.
His owner retained a number of his daughters and needed to add another stallion to her herd.
You do not have to pay top dollar to get a great horse. 
Druydess I have never had PMS but if it is as bad a s rabies then I am counting my blessings. Shalom


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

More pertinent to this thread-- I forgot to mention.. I am certainly putting the aforementioned lovely mare in foal after all she's proved of her abilities, as well as her having the very bloodlines I intend to build on, and lest there be any concern.. I have the funds, resources, time, and dedication to do so. Any foal I produce, I have the ability and resources to keep. BTW-- in the 8 years I have considered breeding, my first foal bred by my hand is due in May.
I very much look forward to what she produces.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Goden Horse that is exactly how I bought my stallion. He was much cheaper than he would have been but due to the market and the drought I basically stole him. he sold for 10,000 as a 3 month old. double that as a 2 YO.
> His owner retained a number of his daughters and needed to add another stallion to her herd.
> You do not have to pay top dollar to get a great horse.
> Druydess I have never had PMS but if it is as bad a s rabies then I am counting my blessings. Shalom


HAHAHAHA!! What is it about my friends here that are determined to make me spray my keyboard??? Count your blessings my dear.. though it doesn't bother me much-- looking around at the shenanigans sometimes-- I can almost believe in Satan..:rofl:

Sapphire Farm's get run 5 figures.. that's all I'll say about that. But quality-- is quality- whether free due to circumstances- or for tens of thousands. I guess some just don't get it..


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Druydess, thats a good thing. I too can provide for all my horses and will not be in any hurry for them to find homes.
When we start showing them, having them professionally trained and exhibited, and advertise them that is when we need to seek a return on our investment.
Buying a breeding good blood stock is not that expensive if you have the time and resources. It is the cost of promoting the stallion and his get that is high.
In fact buying my stallion will save me thousands in stud fees travel expenses and vet fee He bred 3 of my mares and 5 outside ones. if he stands a couple of more years I will have gotten a return on my investment. His bloodlines and horses that he has sired have promoted him very well . I beleive in 15 years he has sired about 40 horses. Mostly mares
I am going to have him collected at a stallion station. to secure my investment and to have his semen to continue the breeding program here.
I only agreed to allow outside mares because his former owner had already promised his services. I did not have to honour her promise but since i wanted to buy his half sister to breed to him. We did some horse trading.
Got her for a very nice price she was listed for 10,000. But I got her and another mare for less than that. Plus two breedings to her other stallions. Shalom


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

db-- I can't even focus..I keep **** thinking about rabies and PMS- and psycho females keep dancing before my eyes!!

Makes me want to load my gun with Lithium...


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Druydess, thats a good thing. I too can provide for all my horses and will not be in any hurry for them to find homes.
> When we start showing them, having them professionally trained and exhibited, and advertise them that is when we need to seek a return on our investment.
> Buying a breeding good blood stock is not that expensive if you have the time and resources. It is the cost of promoting the stallion and his get that is high.
> In fact buying my stallion will save me thousands in stud fees travel expenses and vet fee He bred 3 of my mares and 5 outside ones. if he stands a couple of more years I will have gotten a return on my investment. His bloodlines and horses that he has sired have promoted him very well . I beleive in 15 years he has sired about 40 horses. Mostly mares
> ...


Agreed.
I have watched the market and have benefited from being a savvy businesswoman. Just because a horse is priced at X amount doesn't mean I have to pay it. And it doesn't mean the horse is not valuable. It means I'm not dumb enough to pay more than I have to. There are many ways to do business.
I look forward to learning more about your stallion and your mares.. 
ETA-- have to go to bed- have patients to see tomorrow.. TY for a great discussion! G'Nite!!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Druydess if you have a gun that fires lithium i need to borrow it.
Well maybe not you are qualified to give a shot and i can diagnosis the need for it. Now all we need is the prescription and I, can get a Dr to provide one a few people will soon calm down. Allow reality to settle in and get help for their antisocial behaviour. Sounds like a winner to me.
You should patent that thing and sell it to the MODS. Shalom


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

dbarabians said:


> Druydess if you have a gun that fires lithium i need to borrow it.
> Well maybe not you are qualified to give a shot and i can diagnosis the need for it. Now all we need is the prescription and I, can get a Dr to provide one a few people will soon calm down. Allow reality to settle in and get help for their antisocial behaviour. Sounds like a winner to me.
> You should patent that thing and sell it to the MODS. Shalom


I think it would be easier to just do some Aerial Prozac spraying......LOL!


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## Arab Mama (Jun 10, 2012)

Glynnis said:


> Wow, this thread has taken so many different directions! I've lost the original poster of this comment (one of our Arabian friends I Think), but I like the logic of having some knowledge of the horse outside of the arena, but sometimes showing doesn't always help! My sister's mare was an A circuit show horse before we bought her and had perfect manners in an arena. Outside, she would spook at anything from clumps of grass, to a shovel leaning on the fence.


I SO agree that horses have to experience the real world so that they can be reliable mounts and safe equine citizens. However, I have often found that the monotony of arena work and the "newness" of every show venue provide distinct challenges that a horse can only learn to manage if asked to perform under those conditions. Our two youngest mares do great out on the trail, but when we start on arena work, it is a whole new ballgame. There is a lot more to benefit from in a show environment than just the placement your horse may or may not earn.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I think it would be easier to just do some Aerial Prozac spraying......LOL!


In the ER where I used to work we discussed putting a Valium salt lick in the lobby :wink:


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I and other Mental Health Professionals sometimes wonder if prozac should not be added to the nations water supply.
I like the salt lick idea. Problem is the peole that need it would claim they did not. Shalom


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> I and other Mental Health Professionals sometimes wonder if prozac should not be added to the nations water supply.
> I like the salt lick idea. Problem is the peole that need it would claim they did not. Shalom


Ahh but that's the beauty part of it-disguised as an ubiquitous salt lick we would further our nefarious plan for the betterment of mankind :wink:


...or at least the mental health of those of us working in the ER :lol:


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Arab Mama said:


> I SO agree that horses have to experience the real world so that they can be reliable mounts and safe equine citizens. However, I have often found that the monotony of arena work and the "newness" of every show venue provide distinct challenges that a horse can only learn to manage if asked to perform under those conditions. Our two youngest mares do great out on the trail, but when we start on arena work, it is a whole new ballgame. There is a lot more to benefit from in a show environment than just the placement your horse may or may not earn.


It's very true. I always think the more you can expose them to, the better. It also helps build that trust in them that you will not direct them into a bad situation. My sister's mare, I'm not sure what her deal was because she'd been to show after show... she is a grey mare, so I used to joke that she was the blonde in the herd (sorry to any blondes out there! I'm blonde too!) 

I once rode an absolutely wonderful mare for a friend. She had been trained as a 3 year old and her owner was too afraid to get on her, so she sat in the pasture until she was almost 5. I was asked to put some miles on her and the first month I thought I had made a mistake - I was only 14 at the time. I took her to as many different events, trail rides, etc. as I could, and she became absolutely wonderful and would go anywhere I asked, even if she wasn't sure about it. I was sad to give her back to her owner!


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