# Please help me chose the stallion to breed my mare to



## ArabianLover2456 (Oct 5, 2010)

i hope this is a joke...


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

is this a belated april fools??


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## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

I like the spotted stallion. who is the grey horse? is that one of the stud choices?
I still like the spotted one


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## ArabianLover2456 (Oct 5, 2010)

> is this a belated april fools??


i sure hope so :S


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

ArabianLover2456 said:


> i sure hope so :S


I hope so too. *head desk*


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

> I still like the spotted one


...really?....'the spotted one'...?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Not to sound rude, but none of the above. To breed a mare just because you can is one of the worst reasons to breed; right behind "I want a babee cause theyre so kyoot".

As far as breeding quality goes, your mare is okay. Nothing spectacular, but not much that is absolutely horrid either. Her back seems pretty long and her shoulder is pretty upright but that's the worst of it other than just general aesthetic things. 

HOWEVER, she isn't registered and it is unlikely that the foal would be able to be registered (even breeding to a paint does not guarantee a pinto foal). Has she done anything spectacular in her given discipline that would scream "I _need_ to reproduce!"? Have you had her tested for genetic diseases like HYPP and HERDA?

As for the stallions: Nope, not no way, not no how. I would never breed to a stud that has never even been ridden. Sweet temperament does not always translate to the saddle. I have known quite a few horses that were sweet as they could be on the ground but their attitude under saddle earned them a one-way ticket to the killers. That knocks the paint out. Even if _that_ didn't, his front pasterns are exceptionally upright which, if passed on to the foal, holds potential for countless soundness issues.

The appy is slightly better but still a long way from breeding quality IMHO. The combination of a thick bull neck, upright shoulder, and the fact that he has virtually no chest at all makes him ugly and even his color can't hide that from an objective eye.

I don't know what "Koba" is or why this woman is willing to trade a breeding for it, but either way, you are getting taken. Whoever owns these stallions has already proven, to me, that they will breed to anything with 4 legs and a uterus and that tells me that they are completely irresponsible breeders.

The only way to protect horses from the slaughter houses is to be responsible about breeding and only breed quality animals. Breeding because you have a mare and because you were offered a breeding is not responsible breeding.


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## ArabianLover2456 (Oct 5, 2010)

well said!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Not to sound rude, but none of the above. To breed a mare just because you can is one of the worst reasons to breed; right behind "I want a babee cause theyre so kyoot".
> 
> As far as breeding quality goes, your mare is okay. Nothing spectacular, but not much that is absolutely horrid either. Her back seems pretty long and her shoulder is pretty upright but that's the worst of it other than just general aesthetic things.
> 
> ...



Thanks you saved me a bunch of time.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I agree completely with Smrobs. Breeding should be done very selectively and with purpose. Just because a horse has the reproductive organs, doesn't mean they are good candidates to breed. There are thousands of unwanted grade horses out there as it is, most finding their way onto a kill truck, why on earth would you want to make more?


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

None of the above.

And with that, I back away slowly to grab some popcorn and watch this one 'splode!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Both of those stallys would make only mediocre geldings. They certainly offer nothing to the gene pool that we can't find in hundreds of other mediocre horses, especially the ones in kill pens.

Done nothing, fugly stallions, and your mare is neither registered nor breeding quality. Truly a match made in hell, unless you're deliberately breeding for the kill pens.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Lol I completely agree with smrobs and speedracer..it would just be a complete blow up..and both stallions are beyond ugly..this should get funny though..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

what is your reasoning behind wanting to breed your mare at all? once we know that - what is your reasoning in breeding to either of these studs? just because you're getting it in trade or am i missing something? 

once you answer that - take two steps back from the situation and honestly look at it and rationally determine if this choice is good in any way. if you can't say yes 110% this is the best decision i could make for myself and the horses involved - don't do it. 

just my two cents.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Crimson, I couldn't care less about the human in this equation; it's the potential foal I'm worried about. 

The_ human_ won't be the one sold down the river because of behavioral problems, euthed because of genetic defects, or sold to slaughter because of crappy training or soundness issues. Unfortunately for the foal, any of those scenarios are possible, especially since the human who's responsible for its birth has no more thought to putting a stallion to her mare other than it's a _trade_ for something else. :-x


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Amen..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuarterhorseRider (Apr 7, 2011)

I voted on accident,,,,,,,,,, I agree with smrobs


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## Sowel (Mar 16, 2011)

Well thank you for nothing. 

This is likely the only horse I'll ever have (thanks to my parents) and breeding her will be my greatest joy. And unless I die, the foal will not be sold. 

I has hoping for some construtive critisisum telling my whitch stallion would result in the best foal but I see I was wrong.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

If you are young enough that you need your parents support to own a horse, that likely means you have a lifetime to find a nice mare to breed in the future. What makes you think that since your parents will only allow you to own one horse they will also pay to support the foal? 

Many of the posters who posted here were trying to be constructive by telling you your mare, and those studs, are not breeding quality. Not all were trying to be insulting, just trying to prevent the production of poorly conformed horses when so many out there already need homes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not only that Zeke, what happens when you go to college? There are major life changes that can happen. 

It sounds like you are young. You have many years ahead of you. What makes you think that you will never own another horse?


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

If your parents will only let you have one horse , it is likely that they cannot afford more than one - so how is it that you think they can afford the associated costs of a foal.

The outlay for a foal over the span of its growing years is , generally speaking , much greater than that of an adult.

Have you also taken into consideration the possible damage to your mare. Are you prepared to loose her should things go pear shaped? Are you prepared for your foal to go to slaughter if you can no longer afford him (somthing that you need to be able to do on your own , IMO , before your breed , so you need your own income NOT your parents) because breeding your mare to a fugly stallion with bad conformation and lack of anything of note in his carreer in his chosen field is basically signing a possible death warrent on your potential foals head. If you at the very least choose a nice stallion , registered , and favouribly done something of note then your foal will at least have the possibility of being registered , will have favorable parentage on at least one side , and as such , will be more appealing to a buyers market should things go wrong.

Also , by breeding to a shoddy stallion you are CHOOSING to set your foal up with physical issues that s/he will carry for life which will make it all the more difficult for him to excel in a job. Why would you inflict that on the foal your so desparate for? if it is your 'greatist joy' to breed your mare , than you should at least do her the common decency of finding her a reputable stallion - not breeding her to anything with testicles that should walk past her fence....


be a responsible breeder NOT a backyard breeder.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Zeke said:


> If you are young enough that you need your parents support to own a horse, that likely means you have a lifetime to find a nice mare to breed in the future. What makes you think that since your parents will only allow you to own one horse they will also pay to support the foal?
> 
> Many of the posters who posted here were trying to be constructive by telling you your mare, and those studs, are not breeding quality. Not all were trying to be insulting, just trying to prevent the production of poorly conformed horses when so many out there already need homes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 very well said..

OP- you do sound very young and you do have alot to consider..your age, your experience, you financial ability to support a prego mare and a foal once she does have it..what if there are complications? How would you manage feed, minerals, supplements, care for the mare that takes money? what if she rejects the foal? are you going to be able to stay home from school to feed it VERY frequently, do you have the knoqledge to raise a foal on your own? do you have somewhere to keep the foal and mom isolated from other horses? 
Before even breeding a mare there are TONS of things to consider..And breeding to anything that isn't quailty won't be very good..Now don't get me wrong..I have nothing against grade horses, but just because you like him isn't going to make him worth anything..Pretty doesn't mean brains and a nice horse..and if the stallion is unproven for ANYTHING you don't have any idea what your foal is going to be like..Breeding a horse is something that requires alot of prep work, financial support, and before hand knowledge of what you're going to have tp deal with once you have a foal on your hands...

I could go on and on but. I'm at work and have to get back to my job..I'll keep incheck with this though..


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## Countrylady1071 (May 12, 2010)

I agree with DrumRunner, Smrobs, and everyone else about the breeding.. 

You're young, and you don't know what will happen as you get older and leave your parents. What if you/your parents can't afford to care for the baby, and he gets sold.. the market is pretty crappy right now for well-bred, registered, broke horses, so the foal wouldn't have a fair shot of getting a good home. Plus, I can tell you right now I'm barely making it working full time paying for my one horses board/feed/vet bills/farrier plus my cell/car etc. and I still live at home! If you really want a horse to replace your mare in the future, my best advice is to work hard and put away as much money as you can. Then you can afford to buy and hopefully assume total responsibility of your own horse without counting on your parents. 

i have to say that i love the appy's coloring, and he would be better off as a flashy gelding!


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## Cupcake (Nov 17, 2009)

Sowel said:


> Well thank you for nothing.
> 
> This is likely the only horse I'll ever have (thanks to my parents) and breeding her will be my greatest joy. And unless I die, the foal will not be sold.
> 
> I has hoping for some construtive critisisum telling my whitch stallion would result in the best foal but I see I was wrong.


If your parents won't allow you to have another horse, why would they allow you to have a foal? After all, the foal will _be_ another horse. Do they know and approve of your plans to breed your mare? Just wondering.


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

I understand you wanting to breed your mare. When I was younger I wanted to do the same thing if I ever got a mare. I wanted a cute baby to keep forever. However, I joined this forum, started researching lots and by the time I got my first mare (last year) I had decided I was NOT going to be breeding! She is a 19 year old maiden mare, unregistered (technically as her papers are lost), has fine conformation, but nothing outstanding, and I don't have the money for potential huge vet bills! Also remember that your mare could have complications and potentially both her and the foal could die. Are you prepared for that possibility?

I do plan on breeding some day however. With a different mare of great confo, registered, find a stallion that will compliment her and have the money, facilities and time for anything that could come up as a result. 

Please don't take the opinions and advice wrong. We want to help - we may sound harsh, but it is horrible how many horses go to slaughter because so many people are breeding mediocre horses. Please, do some research, keep learning on this forum and you will have a wonderful future with horses!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Exactly, there is a member here who is very experienced with breeding that just lost both the foal and the mare in spite of a vet's best efforts.


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## QuarterhorseRider (Apr 7, 2011)

Yes, thank you Zeke


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## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

MY horses are all registered now but what about someone who can't afford registered horses (in the beginning of their horse carriers) that wants to improve what they have for riding or possibly for a childs or kids horse? I was in that situation as a kid luckily my parents bred a few of our ponies to bigger horses that gave us 1/2 Arab registered babies who grew up were trained to ride (by us under my mothers supervision) and when we sold them cause we outgrew them we were able to get into registered Arabs. i'm saying that we slowly improved what we had and worked up the ladder until we could afford to buy registered horses. and i think, no i KNOW, wed never have been able to go straight out and purchase a 1000. dollar horse if it wasn't for the way we moved up. I'm just saying that not everyone has a fortune to spend on horses and trying to better what you have (I mean isn't that what we all do with our foals) does not seem like a killing offence to me....

hmmm there is obviously something i missed here.... posts i missed ore something cause i'm totally lost in this conversation.....


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I did it some what the same way although I started with registered horses. I have no out of pocket money into any of my horses that I have now. So it can be done. 

The problem with the agreement of using unregistered horse is that you will NEVER get your investment back. You are better off taking the money it cost to breed the mare and the money it cost to raise the foal until is was 2 and then the money it cost to keep the horse until it is trained and go out and buy you a nice registered horse.

If you want to have a young horse and train one up and sell it then go and buy a coming 2yo. You can find a nice even registered gelding for under $500 easy. They are not the best but they would be most likely just as nice as anything you are going to get out of this cross or most crosses like this. You cut out the cost of the first 2 years which you are now a head of the game.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Exactly. With the horse market like it is now, you can get a well conformed, registered horse with little or no training for a pittance. If a person didn't care about papers and wanted a baby to raise, I could go to any auction around here and find a grade weanling/yearling for less than it would cost to fill my car with gas. Someone who is a member here (I can't remember who is was now) found a nice looking grade appy filly at an auction and paid something like $7.50 for her. You can find some really great deals if you just kinda look around a little bit. Shoot, about 6 years ago, I found a super nice, very well bred, 5 year old registered paint stud for $500. His conformation was amazing and he ended up being an awesome ranch horse.

Point is, in this market, unless you are breeding super high quality, champion animals, you can likely find a better quality horse for a heck of a lot cheaper than it would cost for breeding and care for the foal until it was old enough to ride.


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## HopalongCassidy (Dec 19, 2010)

Well i really like that appy stud. 

but like everyone else says. Just because you want a foal doesn't mean you need a foal. Like you said your parents won't let you have another horse why would they let you breed and have your mare have a foal. it cost more to breed then to just get a foal. 

no one can stop you so if you do decide you are breeding no matter what then got with the appy stud, the paint looks , UCK!


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Kay.... isn't a foal.... like, ANOTHER horse? and wouldn't it be wayyy more expensive to breed and raise a foal... To got ANOTHER horse? Now, I know I suck at math but I am pretty sure 1+1=2 ????


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

OP, please take the advice you've been given. I can pretty much guess at your line of thought right now--babies don't cost anything to feed, you can have your pony to love you forever and train it to love being with you, etc. Please don't breed just for this.

And, for the record, is having a dead mare because she had complications with foaling your "greatest pride and joy"?


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

I do see where you guys are coming from, because yes there are a lot of horses that need homes. But I don't disagree with "grade" breeding. I think if you have a purpose for breeding and your "grade" horses doesn't have major comformational faults then I don't see a problem. And example is a barn owner where I live has a huge lesson facility and has 60+ horses. He breeds a few of his mares and they have all turned out ot be great horses/ponies. He's mare have good comformation and temperment, also if he ever needed to sell them it wouldn't be hard because people are always looking for boomproof lessons horses (at least around here). He does also rescue horses sometimes.
BUt thats just me and I could care less about a registered horse, it's just papers to me and I don't make money of my horses and I don't show. 

Now that being said I think the OP is being a little naive of the realities of owning/breeding a horse. If your parents will only let you have one horse they probably won't allow you to breed your mare and if they did they would probably make you sell it after weaning. Which might be a little difficult because of the "grade" stallions.


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## Equus_girl (Jan 25, 2009)

The reason people don't agree with breeding grade horses is that you have a much better chance of selling a registered horse. You can track its ancestry and find out if it may have genetic problems like HYPP etc. I agree some grades are better horses then the registered ones - just not for breeding. And not all registered horses should be bred either!! Only those who have great confo, temperament and you have a purpose for the potential foal.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Buckcherry, I do agree with the reg horse/ grade pony duo..some of the absolute best barrel ponies are those..I would have to have a pony and horse with great conformation and brains though..im not trying to sound stuck up..but I do prefer registered horses and I wont own one unless I can sit on it and take a nap while it runs the barrels and wins lol..I would probably rescue one but wouldn't buy one..that's just my thoughts on it..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Buckcherry said:


> I do see where you guys are coming from, because yes there are a lot of horses that need homes. But I don't disagree with "grade" breeding. I think if you have a purpose for breeding and your "grade" horses doesn't have major comformational faults then I don't see a problem. And example is a barn owner where I live has a huge lesson facility and has 60+ horses. He breeds a few of his mares and they have all turned out ot be great horses/ponies. He's mare have good comformation and temperment, also if he ever needed to sell them it wouldn't be hard because people are always looking for boomproof lessons horses (at least around here).



While this is all find and dandy and may be true and fine. The fact is that most people can not and do not have the ability or the facilities and so on do take a foal to a bomb proof lesson horse. That takes time and you need to be not only able to train a horse but also have a lesson program to use the horse in to get it there. Not many people can or want to do this. I know I do not. I want to start with the best horse I can. In the end it pays off big time.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

I realize not everyone should breed horses. What I ment was that in certain situations i think it's fine. And to me being registered means nothing, temperment, training and comfo are important but not being registered. Just because it's registered doesn't mean it won't/Cant end up in a slaughter house. Race horses end up in slaughter all the time. 

I do agree that people should rescue more horses rather than breeding. And just FYI i don't breed horses and won't because i neither have the knowledge or experience in that area.


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## sixlets (May 1, 2009)

I've been stalking this thread for a while, it's pretty interesting. I think they should make a Debate forum. Everyone likes to debate, and it could be fun, though it might get a little out of hand.... Ah well, just a thought 

P.S.
I totally agree with what most everyone is saying. Don't breed a horse if you can't afford it. Especially grade, it'll probably just end up in a slaughter house. My horse (a grade Heinz 57) would have ended up in one, but was lucky enough to be bought by good people, and eventually on to me. It scares me to think how close he was to being horse meat. *shudder*


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## tbstorm (Dec 16, 2010)

smrobs said:


> Not to sound rude, but none of the above. To breed a mare just because you can is one of the worst reasons to breed; right behind "I want a babee cause theyre so kyoot".
> 
> As far as breeding quality goes, your mare is okay. Nothing spectacular, but not much that is absolutely horrid either. Her back seems pretty long and her shoulder is pretty upright but that's the worst of it other than just general aesthetic things.
> 
> ...


very well said


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## Sowel (Mar 16, 2011)

Well after conetring everything you guys said I desided to go my own way. My mare will hopefully be bred around May to the Appaloosa Stallion. The foal is not going to be sold and this will be my mares last foal (if she gets pregnant) I'm also hoping to Reg 'Min Fray' and the foal with ATHA but as of now shes unreg'ed. Unlike you guys I can not afford a 10,000$ horse and all I want is a horse to love, ride and possably show a little. 

So you might as well leave this forum I woun't be looking at it again.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Actually, I'm fairly certain half the people on this forum paid a few hundred dollars for their horses. My mare was $700 and that was the asking price for her. I could have gotten away with less. And with all of the horses in kill pens, you could probably get a horse for less than $25. My old BO did that, rehabilitated them, and found them good homes.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

sixlets said:


> I've been stalking this thread for a while, it's pretty interesting. I think they should make a Debate forum. Everyone likes to debate, and it could be fun, though it might get a little out of hand.... Ah well, just a thought
> 
> P.S.
> I totally agree with what most everyone is saying. Don't breed a horse if you can't afford it. Especially grade, it'll probably just end up in a slaughter house. My horse (a grade Heinz 57) would have ended up in one, but was lucky enough to be bought by good people, and eventually on to me. It scares me to think how close he was to being horse meat. *shudder*



Ha ha!! Totally agree with the first part!

OP- this will be the last thing I say..I hope you're ready for a whole lot of mess, asking for trouble and a bad start for a foal..there are more than enough unreg horses out there that no one wants ( I really don't want to sound mean or like I don't like unreg horses)..people today would rather have horses that has bloodlines they can trace back to horses that are worth something and that are proven..you're not going to have any idea how hard this is going to be and you'll be extremely lucky if the foal has a nice life which is highly doubtful..I hope it doesn't end up in the kill pens..but, if you can't have more than one horse what are you going to do? Hide it in your closet??..lord, this is not a good idea..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scoope (Oct 19, 2010)

my shire was $100 NZD , so whats that - like $50 USD ?? well, if you want to get technical , he was free , the $100 was the cover the gas that got him to me :S


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

And! I didn't pay near that much for my TWO horses and they have great bloodlines..I wish you would would listen to everyone and be a smart breeder and not a backyard breeder..gah..I wish people today would see help when you put it in the face as plain as day..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Those kuteeee wittle foals grow out of that stage and turn ugly as heck. Once they hit about 2 they start to blossom. Nobody wants something ugly in their pasture. Don't _breed_ when theres no _need._


Well theres my post


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Sowel said:


> Unlike you guys I can not afford a 10,000$ horse and all I want is a horse to love, ride and possably show a little.


I would venture to say most people on the forum aren't dropping that kind of money on horses right now in this market. BUT for the costs of care & bringing up a foal even if you do training yourself if substantial. You can skip those first couple years of costs & in this market find a finished, broke ready to go horse cheaper than the investment you will have in a foal. 

If breeding isn't done with consideration, you may end up with a foal that you won't be able to ride let alone show. When you breed 2 horses with sub-par conformation, you will get a foal with sub-par confo & generally worse because it will get the good, bad & indifferent from both sides.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

She is not going to listen. I broke it down in one of my earlier posts. Believe me. There are very very few people in here with horses worth $10K. Although I am a breeder I do it for one simple reason. I can not buy a prospect for what I can breed one for. I will say that I am one of the few here who can say that. Most of the time it cost more to breed then buy a prospect and a lot of the time prospects are more then finished horses. At least in my discipline. 

I do hope since you are set on "Going your own way" you at least end up with a usable horse 4-5 years down the road b/c that is what it will take to get you one. Think of all that money you are spending. For what? A $500 horse at that point.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I'm with you NRHA. That too is why I am a breeder and my family has been for decades. My gpa owned the last living son of Poco Dell. My money goes into good broodmares to raise my own prospects. I'm anxiously waiting on my maiden mare now. Do you have your own studs? I'm tossing around the idea of getting one more foal of out my black gd of Poco Pine but would like to breed outside for some new blood. 

Yeah, I think this thread is to the "beating a dead horse" stage. I hope it turns out okay for what she wants, but have serious doubts.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I do have my own stallion however I normally use out side studs. My stallion is very well bred but not so much for reining. He did well in Green and rookie reinings but not much past that. Might have been his age when he started as his sire is a ROM Reining and Working cow horse sire and his dam is a 1/2 sister to the dam of Shinning Spark. 

My mares are daughter of stallions like Hollywood Dun It and Zan Freckles Hickory and my old broodmare is a g-daughter of Poco Bueno.

To get prospects out of proven mares like mine would cost me about $50K+ using the stallions I use. It cost me a fraction of that to put a foal on the ground and raise it to a 2yo. If I even keep the foal. Last few have been sold before the mare was even bred. Been holding back on advertising the next ones as I might keep one. Might not too.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

^^ ohh really?? I love Hollywood Dun It..my mare has reining bloodlines..she's a granddaughter of Reminic..I'm hoping to breed her in a few YEARS..I've been around alot of people who breed but I'm no where near ready to do it and the fact that I want to have absolutly PERFECT plans and details..

here is her pedigree..Nu Kinda Nic Quarter Horse

She is about 15.3 and has a petite body with alot of leg from her dam's side thats mostly TBs..I really want to find a stocky running stud..I love barrel horses with cow bloodlines mixed in..

lol Wow..I kinda took this over..Sorry..I got kinda excited..


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

That is a nice cross for speed events. Pick a stallion with the same type of attributes and such and you should have a nice prospect.

My stallion is bred a lot like that. Cow with some running top side and all around speed and halter bottom side. Great cross.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Thanks, she is a good girl..I love cutting and reining bloodlines even though I run barrels..cow horses just seem to have alot of good sense about them..Nikki gets pretty hot when its go time but she always has a good head on her..im realllllyy wanting to breed her to pc frenchmans hayday..def saving my pennies for that ha ha..lol im a plan freak and want everything to fit together nice..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Sowel said:


> So you might as well leave this forum I woun't be looking at it again.


It's a shame when people ask for opinions and then take their ball and run home because they don't like what they hear.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

AlexS said:


> It's a shame when people ask for opinions and then take their ball and run home because they don't like what they hear.


She didn't ask "should I breed her" she asked "which stud do you like better" 
You all make me sick sometimes. Just because a horse isn't "perfect conformation this, and bred like that" doesn't make it a bad horse. People did it to me and I accepted the criticism because I asked if I should breed my mare but I got all kinds of absolute CRAP about my mare, and you don't even know her...but may I point out that if someone asks which stud you like better, you shouldn't attack them and say that they shouldn't do it at all. Stop being so uppity all the time. You all make really good points about alot of things, and can be very nice, but when it comes to opinions on breeding, sometimes backyard breeders don't want to hear about how "ugly and horribly conformational" their horses are- they just want a token of their mare for the future...a gift if you will- not a show pet.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

This is the problem I have with breeding horses dogs cats anything that has little chance of being a good well conformed member of their type.

Here is just part of the problem. These are the horses who are just in rescues. Not the ones in privet owners hands.

http://www.petfinder.com/pet-search?animal_type=Horse&pet_breed=&location=&startsearch=Search

I foster dogs here and just yesterday I had 3 emails from the rescue I work with. One had 45 dogs listed that if they where not pulled by friday that would be it for them. That is just one email from one area in one state. 

Same is true of horses but even more so b/c there are less owners able to take them.

A lot of thought MUST be put into breeding regardless of if it is a horse dog cat what ever. I have put this thought into my breeding program. With both my horses and dogs. Does everyone want or need a high $ horse or dog? No they do not. If you do not need that then perhaps breeding is not something you need to be doing now? Look through the rescues. You may or may not find what you want. However I will say that there is a horse out there that will fit quite well for less then what breeding and raising one will cost.

This is not aimed at the OP or really anyone. It is ment to make people think. Think before you think about breeding an animal. I have 2 very nice well bred proven show dogs. Neither will probably be bred. Why? B/C for what it will cost me to do all the testing pay a stud fee on a good stud dog I can go out and buy one.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

I completely and 100% agree with you on alot of levels, and I don't want to make this sound like I'm arguing, but it's a point I really must make, and was trying to earlier:

If someone is asking "who do you like better?" you should tell them which one, and that's it- don't just start attacking them, because you think their horse or studs they are choosing from are crap.

Pointing out flaws in a stud or mare is one thing, but telling them all together that they are making a mistake, or as was in the begginning of this thread, asking them if this is a joke, is just flat out mean and sick. I wanted to breed my arab mare SOO bad, just because I wanted a little piece of my Samone- my first horse. Now, she's 25 and it's too late, and when she dies, I will have nothing physical left of her and will simply have memories.

You see what I'm trying to say? It's not always about what you can get for your money, and it's certainly not right to judge and question somebody's ability to keep/raise etc.. a foal of their own.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

SAsamone said:


> She didn't ask "should I breed her" she asked "which stud do you like better"
> You all make me sick sometimes. Just because a horse isn't "perfect conformation this, and bred like that" doesn't make it a bad horse. People did it to me and I accepted the criticism because I asked if I should breed my mare but I got all kinds of absolute CRAP about my mare, and you don't even know her...but may I point out that if someone asks which stud you like better, you shouldn't attack them and say that they shouldn't do it at all. Stop being so uppity all the time. You all make really good points about alot of things, and can be very nice, but when it comes to opinions on breeding, sometimes backyard breeders don't want to hear about how "ugly and horribly conformational" their horses are- they just want a token of their mare for the future...a gift if you will- not a show pet.


Hmmm maybe you should read back, I don't think I even passed an opinion in this thread. 

And asking which stallion we prefer, sorry but there is a place for neither being the answer. 

Ask for opinions and you will get them - it is a discussion internet board after all.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

SAsamone said:


> ... It's not always about what you can get for your money, and it's certainly not right to judge and question somebody's ability to keep/raise etc.. a foal of their own.


Just commenting on what i left in the quote.

The OP stated that she was not allowed another horse. At that point, imo, we are free to question why she is breeding then.

A lot of people did give their opinions on the studs. Neither one needs to be bred. Neither one are stallion material.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Saying neither stud is fine, that's not my point...(and Alex, I didn't mean to attack you personally, the statement just fit in with my general statement. I seriously do appologise.) I'm saying you shouldn't attack her, like I have seen multiple times on this board, about her decision to breed period. Tell her you don't like the studs, by all means! Point out the flaws in both and educationally make a point about why you don't like the combo. But don't just bash people's horses and decision to breed. If she wants to do it, she wants to and leave it at that. don't get so mean that you run her off the board.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

We never bashed HER horse..She is a child that SAID her parents won't let her have another horse..What do they think the foal will be??..Sasamone, I get what you mean about breeding your mare but you have to understand that she has her whole life ahead of her to have it done the right way..We all just stated our opinions and how we felt on the issue..we gave real life facts about what will happen and why it's not a good idea..I hate it when people get their feelings get hurt when they hear the truth..


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Although there were some people asking if it was for real or a joke. Most of the responses I have seen in this thread where just good info. One thing you will not see from me is rainbow and butterflies when it comes to breeding. I take that very seriously. Maybe b/c I believe horses need to prove their worth before they are bred? 

In the end like it or not. A persons choice to breed an animal has more repercussions then deciding to buy a car or those pretty shoes. It is the animal that pays. I am not saying that this animal will pay and mine will not. I am saying that you MUST think about it. You need to give that animal the best chance to become a productive member of the equine world.

Breeding b/c you want a part of your favorite pet is just not good enough. I have had a lot of favorite animals over the years. I have loved each and every one of them and I would love to have any of them back. However I will tell you what I have learned from this. There is always going to be that next favorite animal friend. Although it might not be the same it might just be better even if it is different.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Done nothing, fugly stallions, and your mare is neither registered nor breeding quality. Truly a match made in hell, unless you're deliberately breeding for the kill pens.





Chiilaa said:


> I hope so too. *head desk*





Scoope said:


> is this a belated april fools??


 
DrumRunner that makes this whole thing worse!! A child!?! You feel comfortable having adults talk to a child like this? ^^ Look at those quotes and there are more, but I don't feel like finding them. I've seen children act nicer towards eachother than this. and Rhainer, butterflies and rainbows are not needed, and although I agree you mus think before you do something, this is just awful. And with that, I shut my mouth.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I believe that those quotes were made _before_ it was known that the op was not an adult.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Would you want someone talking to you like that? Come on...really, Im not going to say anymore, but I had to say something about this, becuase it's not the first time it's happened.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

In all honesty... Yes. If I am being an idiot and making a stupid choice I prefer to be told that and not coddled.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> In the end like it or not. A persons choice to breed an animal has more repercussions then deciding to buy a car or those pretty shoes. It is the animal that pays. I am not saying that this animal will pay and mine will not. I am saying that you MUST think about it. *You need to give that animal the best chance to become a productive member of the equine world.*
> 
> Breeding b/c you want a part of your favorite pet is just not good enough. I have had a lot of favorite animals over the years. I have loved each and every one of them and I would love to have any of them back. However I will tell you what I have learned from this. There is always going to be that next favorite animal friend. Although it might not be the same it might just be better even if it is different.


This is it exactly. Especially the bolded part. My parent's bred labs for years and there was more than one occaision we paid several thousands of dollars for a ***** only to end up spaying her because she didn't end up the way we had hoped. She was usually a wonderful pet and we always kept them, but wasn't fit to breed. 

I would also prefer to be called stupid when I am being stupid. I don't need people treating me like I'm made of glass.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I agree Appy and Tiger. I have learned lots of things on this forum from people telling me the truth and their opinions and not being told what my parents always tell me.... 

I have a problem with the "My parents wont let me have another horse, so I am going to breed for another horse" ?????


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Correcting someone is one thing...being nasty, like the posts that I had quoted before, is another. Sorry, but it's true. and just becuase a few prefer it, doesn't mean others do.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I kind of agree, but that is real life. People are going to tell you your stupid every now and then.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Those comments were made wayyyyyy before we knew she was a child..THEN we stated that it wasn't a good idea and why it wasn't a good idea..and yes, I would want ALL OPINIONS when asking something like that..she put it on a public forum..EVERYONE HERE knows that if u post something you're going to have to take the good and bad..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

I am pro slaughter, but only for the reason that *There are too many meh horses in the world and not enough good homes for them.*

If you wanted a horse to raise, you could find a weanling that I garuntee you will look better than the cross of your mare and _either _of those stallions (both of which would be gelded immediately if they were in my possession). 

My other point, if your parents can't afford a second horse, how in the world do you think they can pay to breed, raise, and train your foal? 
Foals grow up. Once this foal grows up, you will have a horse, am I right? But wait, don't you already have a horse? :? If I'm thinking correctly, you (actually _your parents_) will have to pay to feed and take care of your horses. 

Would I love to breed a horse for a foal I can have forever? Yes, but I will NOT breed a single horse of mine unless I am literally _floored _by both parents conformation, achievements, and temperments. That may be my first horse, or my thirtieth. But I will only breed once and I will do it when the time is right, not just because "I lovvvve my poneh!!1!!"

I pray you heed the advise we have given you hun.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Actually this thread has stayed very civil. I believe you are more offended than the OP. Child or not, I would respond no differently. Actually this board has many kids on it that accept other's opinions without trowing hissy fits.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Here was a point I was trying to make earlier but for some reason the Internet goblins ait it.

There is no way to know who old a person is. Only what they put in their profile. This person can be any age. Just b/c they state their parents will not let them have another horse does not mean they are a child. It might only mean they keep their horse on their parent property.

Anyway here is the OP profile. So what is the truth?

About Sowel 

BiographyI am 24, I have been riding for around 10 years.

LocationTurlock Ca
InterestsHorses & ReadingGenderFemaleDisplay Gender Beneath Avatar
Read more: The Horse Forum - View Profile: Sowel


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Still... 1+1=2


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

You don't like the way I type to someone who is, in my opinion, an irresponsible horse owner? I'm sorry if you think that way. Truly. I am. 

I wish that people would realise that irresponsibly breeding fugly horses that have no future is the same as starving a horse. Seriously, it might not seem that bringing a cute, fuzzy miniature of pretty, perfect Mummy is that bad. Until things go wrong. Turns out pretty Mummy dies foaling, or happens to be carrying HYPP. Or the foal is born with a deformation that makes it cruel to keep it alive. Or that the OP's parents wise up and make her sell her Perfect Mummy before the foal even drops. 

You're right. I should not say anything. Because by remaining silent I am not hurting anyone's feelings. I am also not advocating for an animal that cannot advocate for itself.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

SAsamone said:


> (and Alex, I didn't mean to attack you personally, the statement just fit in with my general statement. I seriously do appologise.)


No worries!

But I do stand by my statement that she asked for opinions and received them.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

SAsamone said:


> She didn't ask "should I breed her" she asked "which stud do you like better"
> You all make me sick sometimes. Just because a horse isn't "perfect conformation this, and bred like that" doesn't make it a bad horse. People did it to me and I accepted the criticism because I asked if I should breed my mare but I got all kinds of absolute CRAP about my mare, and you don't even know her...but may I point out that if someone asks which stud you like better, you shouldn't attack them and say that they shouldn't do it at all. Stop being so uppity all the time. You all make really good points about alot of things, and can be very nice, but when it comes to opinions on breeding, sometimes backyard breeders don't want to hear about how "ugly and horribly conformational" their horses are- they just want a token of their mare for the future...a gift if you will- not a show pet.


I'm going to go waaaaaaaaaaay out on a limb here and just assume you're also against horse slaughter. The "let's breed anything with legs" advocates usually are, thus giving birth to the entire definition of irony.

Regardless if you are or not, it sickens and disturbs me that you think we shouldn't stand up and advocate for an animal that can't speak when it's being abused. Because that's basically what you're saying. If we have no right to voice our opinions as to what future the foal has if it is EVER sold, you must also think we have no right to voice our opinions if someone asks for a jumping critique of them whipping a horse to the point of bloody? Right?

If people don't want OPINIONS, then get the fudge off of FORUMS. If they want to live in their happy little princess world of gum drops and lollipops, then why on EARTH do they ask opinions on a public forum? I swear to goodness it's like leaving a liquor store with doors wide open and then being MAD because it gets robbed!


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Some of that was a bit unneccessary in my opinion, as, if someone was beating or abusing a horse in any way, I certainly WOULD say something- in fact I have a rescue horse BECAUSE of that fact, and you have no right to just assume what my position is on something. My position on abuse and slaughter also have NOTHING to do with what we are talking about, so please don't bring it up, and PM me if you would really like to know my thoughts. 

I also don't give a crap about opinions being made, I care about answering someone's question without going off on a tantrum about how ugly their horse is. It happens way too often...there's one about a horse she asked the color, and all of a sudden people started attacking the person a bout the horse being overweight when #1, that wasn't the quetion and #2 it wasn't even the person's horse and she had no control over the fact. It's stuff like that when people need to just answer the question and not get involved otherwise.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

You are the only one so far that seems like they are throwing a tantrum..and why are you bring more stuff into the thread?..aren't you the one saying we should just answer the question she asked??..you are getting so worked up over this and its not even your thread. We all are going to state our opinions..if you don't want to hear it, get off a public forum..ok so here's my" answer" to her question if you want it that way..

Neither..they are both ugly as hell and don't seem good for anything..neither are proven and I wouldnt take them if they were given to me because it would just be a waste of time and feed..

Does that make you happy?? I shortened it up for you..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

SAsamone said:


> Pointing out flaws in a stud or mare is one thing, but telling them all together that they are making a mistake, or as was in the begginning of this thread, asking them if this is a joke, is just flat out mean and sick. I wanted to breed my arab mare SOO bad, just because I wanted a little piece of my Samone- my first horse. Now, she's 25 and it's too late, and when she dies, I will have nothing physical left of her and will simply have memories.


Along these thoughts, I would lovee to have a little version of one of my dogs. He's 10 and I've had him since he was 6 weeks old. I love him and he's one of the best dogs I'll probably have. The reasons I wouldn't/couldn't do that?

1) He's neutered 
2) I don't even know what breed he is. He looks like a golden retriever, but his litter was dumped on a vet's doorstep and he took them to the shelter.
3) He has hip dysplasia.
4) He has a problem with his esophagus that requires him to chew every last piece of food. Does he? No. Does he throw it back up? Yes. 
5) He's cute. That's it. He's a total mutt and I could get another one from the shelter. 

I love my dog and I just tore him apart. Half the time when I'm at the barn, I pick out flaws in my mare just to prevent myself from making a terrible decision and breeding her. I couldn't afford another horse and I've been around foals. They're a lot of work and a lot of money. I would have to find a stud that literally _glows_ to perfect my mare enough to have anything less than a sub-par, meh horse.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I actually will go ahead and apologize for my last post but its the honest truth..im a little worked up because breeding is something I take very seriously and the idea of breeding to those studs is just crazy..sasamone I did target you out because you have been the only one that seems to have a problem with everyones opinions..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SAsamone, a LOT of people wouldn't know better or wouldn't learn if they aren't told otherwise. If we just said "I like stallion number one" then the poster would never know what they might be doing that is detremental to the horse's future. 
Same with pointing out a too-skinny or too-fat horse, or pointing out to someone that riding a foal is never right. I HATE the excuses made about these situations, too. If nobody ever stood up and said "that isn't right," or "that isn't the greatest idea," who would ever learn otherwise?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RodeoLoco (Mar 11, 2011)

I personally would ignore every one and breed her. General looks like a nice stallion to breed her to. If you are not looking for a purebred horse, then go for it. I would love to see what comes out of them! I have bred many grade horses and they have all came out amazing.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

My random thoughts... 
_Will you be able to have the mare checked out by a vet throughout her pregnancy?_
_Do you have the knowledge to care for a mare in foal? _
_Do you have a safe foaling stall?_
_Will you/family be able pay for the vet to come out if he/she is needed?_ _What if the mare rejects the foal ? _
_What if the you lose both ?_ 
_Do you have the facilities to separate the colt/filly at weaning time?_
_Will you have the funds to geld the possible colt?_
_What about training costs? _
_If you choose to do it yourself- will you have the time to put into he/shes training?_

If you are under 18, I would assume all of these cost would fall under your legal guardians. 
_What if you decide to go to college?_

You could be looking at re-homing a grade foal that is not worth much. 


There are SO many more than the ones I just listed. Its something that needs to be thought out very carefully.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

I ride a grade horse so no prejudice there but I would certainly never intentionally breed a horse. And if you are a good breeder, there are not mistakes on who is getting bred.... 

What I will say is that as far as a happy fairy tale ending goes for the new foal...never being sold is easier said than done. My daughter's gelding was never to be sold...4th generation bred on the same ranch and was very much loved. But owner/trainer got pregnant at the age of 40 so Sheldon was put on the back burner, than of course you have to raise the kid up big enough to go to the barn. Than kid is 2-3 and you get hit by a drunk driver with no insurance, money is tight, horse is still not fine tuned but green. He is now sold and you are heartbroken. 

Moral.... life happens and you can not guarantee your horse, let alone an unregistered foal a forever home.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Very true WickedNag. And good points lacyloo! But if you think that her parents wouldn't let her have another horse why would she _breed_ for another horse?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

RodeoLoco said:


> I personally would ignore every one and breed her. General looks like a nice stallion to breed her to. If you are not looking for a purebred horse, then go for it. I would love to see what comes out of them! I have bred many grade horses and they have all came out amazing.


Define "amazing". Because seriously, if you are breeding "many" grade horses, I doubt they are amazing. In fact, I doubt I would buy one at all. But then, I am a snob that cares about giving foals a future instead of producing more Pal and Clag on legs. 

Thought I had better point out, just in case it's not a brand in the US, Pal is a brand of dog food over here. Clag is a brand of glue, the type kids in kindy eat.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

This. I cannot STAND how people brag about Grade horses like because they're 10 years old and bombproof, that's a good reason to breed more Grades. No, THAT Grade got lucky, lucky that someone cared enough to put the time and training into him.

Being amazing as a fully trained trail horse does NOT mean you should breed the dang thing. It's STILL completely and utterly worthless as a foal in this economy, regardless how much YOU think it's worth.

My unregistered Arab is amazing. I could get a decent price for her right now. As a foal? She was worth exactly diddly squat! I don't delude myself into thinking that because she's amazing NOW, that made her amazing at birth. No, she was a skinny little chestnut filly with zero future if for whatever reason I couldn't have kept her!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> ^
> 
> This. I cannot STAND how people brag about Grade horses like because they're 10 years old and bombproof, that's a good reason to breed more Grades. No, THAT Grade got lucky, lucky that someone cared enough to put the time and training into him.
> 
> ...




YYYYEESSSSS!!! Lol I literally want to like high five you!


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## raywonk (Jan 9, 2011)

Let me say this what a good read. I just wish people could step back and look at it threw someone eless eyes.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

> But if you think that her parents wouldn't let her have another horse why would she _breed_ for another horse?


My post was biased off of the original post and I skimmed through the others. Its just my thoughts on breeding for the first time or not thinking it through. 

I just hate seeing so many young horses on craigslist and the owners saying (we just dont have the time). Obliviously life changes and people do not think about the extra life they are going to have to sale/give away.


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## RodeoLoco (Mar 11, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Define "amazing". Because seriously, if you are breeding "many" grade horses, I doubt they are amazing. In fact, I doubt I would buy one at all. But then, I am a snob that cares about giving foals a future instead of producing more Pal and Clag on legs.
> 
> Thought I had better point out, just in case it's not a brand in the US, Pal is a brand of dog food over here. Clag is a brand of glue, the type kids in kindy eat.


My grade horses have placed first in almost all western competitions. Our grade TB mare is not trained yet, but I am working on making her into a champion. My arab cross came in first in Western equitation, barrels, and cutting multiple times. Personally, I think she should breed if she can afford it. Not all people like reg. horses. I am not here to get into a fight, so I am not posting anymore.


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## amschrader87 (Oct 30, 2010)

> My grade horses have placed first in almost all western competitions. Our grade TB mare is not trained yet, but I am working on making her into a champion. My arab cross came in first in Western equitation, barrels, and cutting multiple times. Personally, I think she should breed if she can afford it. Not all people like reg. horses. I am not here to get into a fight, so I am not posting anymore.


I think thats great and completely agree.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

RodeoLoco said:


> My grade horses have placed first in almost all western competitions. Our grade TB mare is not trained yet, but I am working on making her into a champion. My arab cross came in first in Western equitation, barrels, and cutting multiple times. Personally, I think she should breed if she can afford it. Not all people like reg. horses. I am not here to get into a fight, so I am not posting anymore.


Why don't you read MY post? Or is it easier to just ignore completely? Your horses weren't AMAZING as foals, and would have gone for the same $50 at auction as _EVERY OTHER GRADE HORSE._


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## RodeoLoco (Mar 11, 2011)

It doesn't matter. The horse is what the owner wants to make of it. If some one likes a grade foal, they can make it into a champion if they want, or, they can use it as a trail horse. Its all up to the person who looks at the foal.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Do you any sort of genetic testing before you breed Rodeo?


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## RodeoLoco (Mar 11, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Do you any sort of genetic testing before you breed Rodeo?


No I don't.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

And you're going to want to breed that grade champion, aren't you? What if that grade champion happens to have a genetic mutation that is a new genetically inherited disease and is then transferred to all of its offspring without the knowledge of the foal's owners? Being able to trace genetic disease is not something to be taken lightly.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I wonder why you do not see many great NRHA Futurity Champions? Maybe that NCHA Futurity champion or even say an NRCHA Snaffle Bit Champion? 

Oh may even an NRHA Affiliate champion?


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## amschrader87 (Oct 30, 2010)

I wouldn't say any horse is Amazing as a foal. Yes bloodlines make them appealing, but it all depends on the trainer/owner as to what they turn into. A grade horse can become a great horse even without great bloodlines. Now I'm not saying everyone should breed but I think that if you have the money, knowledge and the time to put into a foal then go for it.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

RodeoLoco said:


> No I don't.


So your willing to propetuate HERDA, OLWs, HYPP, etc., in your "breeding" stock becuase you don't test... Real responsible breeding there. Not only does the pedigree help track what a horse will (should) be good at, it helps let you know what diseases a horse is liable to have. Willy-nilly breeding of grade horses _without_ genetic testing goes beyond just asinine and into obviously not caring.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

amschrader87 said:


> I wouldn't say any horse is Amazing as a foal. Yes bloodlines make them appealing, but it all depends on the trainer/owner as to what they turn into. A grade horse can become a great horse even without great bloodlines. Now I'm not saying everyone should breed but I think that if you have the money, knowledge and the time to put into a foal then go for it.



If it was only about the owners and trainers and money then why do you not see more grade horses winning the big money at the different futuritys? Why when you call trainers like Shawn Flarada and others at that level one of the first questions they ask is how your horse is bred?

Grade horses have their place. Some are grade for many reasons. Lost papers parents where not DNA typed and could not be registered and so on. However they are still grade. The breeding needs to stop there.


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

I disagree that foals are not born "amazing". Experienced breeders can definitely see the potential in newborn foals, and therefore they are worth more from day 1. Whether or not that horse eventually turns into a winner is, like has been said, dependent on a lot of other factors, but it all starts when the horse is a foal. Pedigrees and lineage help tremendously when we are trying to breed good horses.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> If it was only about the owners and trainers and money then why do you not see more grade horses winning the big money at the different futuritys? Why when you call trainers like Shawn Flarada and others at that level one of the first questions they ask is how your horse is bred?
> 
> Grade horses have their place. Some are grade for many reasons. Lost papers parents where not DNA typed and could not be registered and so on. However they are still grade. The breeding needs to stop there.


I would just like to point out that all "purebreds" were grades in the beginning. You can't get one breed without the other in most instances. And in some instances, having both breeds makes a grade even better than the parents...take it from me: Hogs in America that you eat are never purebred...why? You get better meat by crossing two breeds to get better traits and it's the same with cattle. And one of the big reasons grades aren't in furturities is because you have to be nominated when you register, which grades cannot do. Also, just because a horse is well bred and doesn't have papers doesn't make it grade...if you have a say...i don't know...the son of Seattle Slew and you lose the horse's papers, that doesn't mean he's not the son of Seattle Slew.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

SAsamone said:


> I would just like to point out that all "purebreds" were grades in the beginning.
> 
> *Yes as some point newer breed started by crossing different horses or dogs or what ever. However records where kept. Which give them a way to prove pedigrees. Why if it was not important did they keep those records??*
> 
> ...


There is no registration requirement to show in any class in NRHA NRCHA NCHA. So yes even grade horses can show in the futurities.

So again I ask why do you not see grade horses in the futurities or even at the top of the affiliate year end awards.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

SAsamone - they're NO LONGER grades, that's the point. There are so many recognised breeds that excel in such a wide variety of disciplines that the argument "they were all grade in the beginning" is kind of null.
Also, there is VALUE in purebred horses. Much more value in your average registered horse than your average grade horse. People pay for that value, and the value is evident. People don't care if the meat on their plate is purebred or not. 
Papers DO make a difference. If a horse doesn't have papers, it is grade. You can argue against that till you're blue in the face, but it won't change a thing. The horse is grade until papered; and if those papers are lost and unreproducable, the horse is grade.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

OK so one more post here as I tend to repeat myself... old age I think 

I have a grade horse, he is nice to look at and as well trained as some of my friends papered horses and not as well trained as some. My daughter's AQHA, Sheldon is one of them whose training makes my horse look very green. While I could expect to sell my grade for about $1000 in this economy, I could expect to sell my daughter's more highly trained registered horse for about $4500

I am not a breeder, not of dogs, cats, horses ...nothing! I think only the best of the best should be bred. Not me standing a horse like my gelding at stud because he is 16.1, a tobiano, has a nice temperament, is ok with his confirmation. Not breeding my mare because I love her and she is special so I would love a baby just like her....

I am more than happy to take the barrel bred horse that didn't have the heart to run barrels and turn him into a nice wp horse that wins in local shows. I am more than happy to ride my good looking and amazing (to me) grade horse up and down the trails. 

I am more than happy to say, if you don't know what you are breeding for and why, you have no business breeding. There are too many registered babies that need homes to even think about breeding a grade horse. The market stinks... lifetime horses aren't always able to be that. Things in life happen and destroy our fairy tale worlds and we can't raise that foal till it dies... responsible breeding and training will give a horse the best chance of getting a great home if something happens and he needs to move from our lives.... 

Just because the parts are there doesn't make it necessary to put them to use...RESPONSIBLE BREEDING IS THE ONLY ANSWER


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

NdAppy said:


> So your willing to propetuate HERDA, OLWs, HYPP, etc., in your "breeding" stock becuase you don't test... Real responsible breeding there. Not only does the pedigree help track what a horse will (should) be good at, it helps let you know what diseases a horse is liable to have. Willy-nilly breeding of grade horses _without_ genetic testing goes beyond just asinine and into obviously not caring.


Lovely. Quality breeder.... sigh. SO easy to prevent such diseases from being perpetuated. SO so so very easy... it's too bad some ruin it for the bunch.


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

Some people can't afford to buy "registered horses" and grade is there only option so I do think they have a place in this world.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

The price of a horse is the cheapest part of owning a horse...


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Holy crap..I leave to eat and come back and I've missed sooo much..

Foals are born AMAZING! That's why you have breeding fees! If you breed two bad A horses with bad A bloodlines you can sell that foal for quite a bit of money before it hits the ground!

Horses are registered for a reason. If your HORSE IS REGISTERED YOUR PAPERS ARE LOST IT IS NOW GRADE! No arguing that..you have no proof other than your word and today people can say anything..

Its been said over and over again..if your breeding grades you have NO idea what genetic problems you can/will get in a foal..

And like nrhareiner said..you DO NOT see grade horses winning anything major..

The absolute only cross I would do is a QH and a TB..

And! People who just keeps breeding their meh grade horses are a whole different type..a backyard breeder! Aka a not too smart person breeding genetic problems and unwanted horses..

I know this is all jumbled around but im reading posts as im typing..


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

Buckcherry said:


> Some people can't afford to buy "registered horses" and grade is there only option so I do think they have a place in this world.


Have you priced horses? I can buy a cheap registered horse or even take one in for free any day of the week. Go to your local auction and look in the kill pens. They are in there and they are registered, grade and every breed under the sun... 

I have grade horses and love them. Doesn't mean they should be bred... don't need anymore designer breeds :shock: out there in any type of animal.

If you get a highly trained rope horse that is grade he will bring a pretty penny regardless but put a set of papers with him... So grade doesn't always mean affordable either. Training on the horse is what will get the money and people generally don't put as much training into a horse with unknown heritage.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

A good horse is a _good horse_, papers or not. But there are plenty of registered horses out there that are cheap. I picked my POA up for 200$ with papers. My other mare was bought for the cost of training with papers. I cant remember if my new gelding has papers or not. For me personally, _its not a big deal because I do not show/breed. _ For what I use them for, papers are just something else to keep up with.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Amen  ^^


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Buckcherry said:


> Some people can't afford to buy "registered horses" and grade is there only option so I do think they have a place in this world.



Not true..the market is in terrible shape right now. You can get a nice registered horse for an extremely cheap price right now..I've seen a registered horse that was worth WAYYYYY more than it sold for..and like someone said..buying the horse is the cheapest part of owning a horse..


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

They certainly have their place. Breeding is not it, in my opinion.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> They certainly have their place. Breeding is not it, in my opinion.


That was said so well and didn't take paragraphs to do


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> They certainly have their place. Breeding is not it, in my opinion.


Exactly..couldn't have said it better, or nicer..


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

As an accidental backyard breeder - let me throw in my two cents.

I sincerely regret that Dancer was bred, and although we all love Rain dearly, I wish she had never been born. Dancer has had a hard time of it and is just now beginning to recover. 

Daughter and her hubby have five horses - and all but one of our horses are rescues of one sort or another.

Something has happened that we never really anticipated. Clearing our pasture has been much slower going than I want it to, and we don't have much grass. Add to that, we are having the worst drought in nearly 100 years - we've been without significant rain since before Thanksgiving - nearly as long as the drought that brought about the Dust Bowl here in Oklahoma. That may well mean no hay - or not much hay from our fields this year. Hay is already higher than I've ever seen it. Gas prices are ridiculous. Son in law's hours at work have been cut drastically - so daughter is unable to contribute to the care of seven horses. Hubby and I have already decided that we will need to cancel our vacation if things get even the tinyest bit worse, just so we can make sure we have enough money for hay for the horses. Now we find out that daughter's recently rescued gelding isn't gelded, so now I need to come up with the $$ for that, since daughter doesn't have the money. Will have to keep the gelding penned up for now because the flies are already so bad around here - I think it would be safer to wait until fall to geld him. 

We are muddling through right now, but what happens if things get any worse? We'll have to make decisions that I'd rather not make. All because someone - a backyard breeder, no doubt - had horses that they couldn't take care of - and it may not be long before I'm just as bad - if it doesn't rain.

I certainly won't bash anyone for breeding - registered or grade - but the thought of what might happen to my precious horses terrifies me. It's proof positive that I have no business breeding, that's for sure!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

^^ im glad that you posted this..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

It's hard to admit that one is a less than successful horse owner. But - I felt it had to be said. If it makes even one person rethink breeding right now, it was worth the humiliation...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> They certainly have their place. Breeding is not it, in my opinion.


Love it. I have several grade horses and they are very nice, but the fact is, people who are considering breeding should really give enough of a dang about horses to give a foal the very best chance they've got. A foal out of a fugly momma that is "a real sweetheart" and a stud that "isn't broke but throws nice color" has virtually no chance at all.

Especially considering things like this. I would take this guy over a nicer grade horse any day simply because this horse's re-sale value after a bit of re-training would be astronomically higher than a grade's.

(thank you LoneStar for posting this link originally)
http://houston.craigslist.org/grd/2321707758.html
$300 for a dang good looking, registered, broke horse. If people really only buy/breed grade horses with the excuse "that's all I can afford", then they are lying to themselves.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

^^ I can't find his pedigree??? 

But please, correct me if I'm wrong,
You guys are saying that a good horse must be well bred. I can't find his pedigree but let's say, for a moment, that he has NOTHING special in his pedigree...what is the difference between him and a grade horse, other than the fact that he has a name in a computer? Would you still pick him? I'm honestly asking here....and I want to know why/why not.

I will also say I do agree that pedigree horses are the same price now a days so that is not an excuse...however, another question, is that, what if you have a choice between a pedigree and a grade, and the pedigree is mean and nasty, the grade is not and you want to breed. which would you buy?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Smrobs, I was going to post that guy in here too. 

And honestly, along those lines, if all you can afford is a cheap grade horse, then you probably shouldn't own a horse. Your vet bills aren't going to be less just because your horse isn't registered.

And nobody said that, SA. The majority of the arguments FOR registration were based around genetic disorders and tracking them, which means not passing them to offspring. Without registration, you can't track that. Or having horses specifically bred for disciplines. 

And Allbreedpedigree names are put in by random people. His name hasn't been put in. Simple as that. I had to put my 2003 mare's in when I bought her last fall, but I had her papers saying who her parents were.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

No, no no, you have me wrong, It was a hypothetical situation. I know that about the registry.


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## raywonk (Jan 9, 2011)

My mother is a back yard breader. Over the years she has lost 5 mares doe to prego problems. Lost 3 foals due to unseen isues. She has lost 4 horses over 2 due to isues that could have been prevented. The first foal I ever rased out of my nice AQHA mare was a breeding stock paint due to my mother not lessoning to me and letting her stallion in with my mare. Which also ended my mares show career due to coplications. 
Now as for the market. I have had and Oldenburg gave to my mother in law. Finsh top level dressage horse. you can find lots of nice horses out thier for little to nothing.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

dee said:


> It's hard to admit that one is a less than successful horse owner. But - I felt it had to be said. If it makes even one person rethink breeding right now, it was worth the humiliation...


I don't think you should be humiliated..it took guts to say that and im glad you did..I think it makes a good horse owner to say things like you did..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

SAsamone said:


> ^^ I can't find his pedigree???
> 
> But please, correct me if I'm wrong,
> You guys are saying that a good horse must be well bred. I can't find his pedigree but let's say, for a moment, that he has NOTHING special in his pedigree...what is the difference between him and a grade horse, other than the fact that he has a name in a computer? Would you still pick him? I'm honestly asking here....and I want to know why/why not.
> ...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

SAsamone said:


> ^^ I can't find his pedigree???
> 
> *Just because it isn't on allbreedpedigree doesn't mean much, lots of horses aren't on there*.
> 
> ...


In this market, I really don't understand it. By breeding responsibly (not just choosing stock simply because it's registered, but by choosing _great_ stock that is _also_ registered), then the foal actually has a chance to be worth something after it's hit the ground. Regardless of how crappy the market gets, there is still a very good market for registered foals out of good parents. A big part of how much they are worth also depends on how diligent the owner is about finding them a good home. Putting up advertisements on CL or dumping them at an action is just asking for them to end up on a killer truck.

People who are responsible about breeding are normally also responsible about re-homing their horses. They put some good training on the horse to make it desirable, they look around for select horse sales or private buyers; places where people will be looking for their next ranch, show, or competition prospect. People who have the means and ability to ensure that the horse can reach it's potential. Those are the people who pay real money for a horse and they don't buy unregistered stock.

Nobody who is willing to spend more than $100 on a foal will look at a foal by a 'pintoarabaloosa' stud out of a mare that 'we think she's a TB'. Because nobody wants to spend any money on them, they don't sell. Because they don't sell, the end up dumped at auctions where they are picked up by the meat man for $5.

The way I see it, if you can find stock that is better quality than either of the prospective parents for less than $1000, then there is definitely no reason to breed.

If people want a foal to raise and they only have mediocre horses, why can't they just go to an auction and pick up a weanling for $20? Or, better yet, why can't they buy a bred mare that needs a home? That way, they would be saving 2 lives instead of making the problem worse. Especially since people willing to breed mediocre horses usually don't care about the quality of the foal.


It's like Carlos Mencia said about people but it fits here too.

"If you have an A parent and they have a kid with another A parent, chances are, you will end up with an A child. However, if you take a D parent and they hook up with another D parent, the kid ends up DUR-DUH-DUR".


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

> "If you have an A parent and they have a kid with another A parent, chances are, you will end up with an A child. However, if you take a D parent and they hook up with another D parent, the kid ends up DUR-DUH-DUR".


Love this


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SAsamone, you have taken this on a tangent of 'grade haters' vs 'grade lovers' I think. The thing is, no one here hates grades. They can be really awesome, we all know and accept that. 

They still shouldn't be bred from.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

I will put the horse from CL on all Breed pedigree and add the link


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

Here is the pedigree link to *Lucky Skip Razor
Lucky Skip Razor Quarter Horse
*


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

Repeat repeat... why or why do I tend to do that. I have a grade horse and I love him. He is a good horse, Registered AQHA sire and **** was a grade tobiano mare. He is a great, grade horse but he not worthy of being bred, even if he was papered. To be worthy of being bred you need not only to be registered but you need to meet the breed standard as closely as possible, Since there is not perfect horse, Than on top of confirmation, you add need to add temperament. 

I love my grade horse, thought of selling him earlier this year because of my own health issues and getting a more family friendly horse. Shunke is a worrier and if you don't handle him right he gets nervous. When my farrier was suppose to come pick him up that day, I couldn't let him go. I decided that even if I can't ride him as much as I want to or as he needs to keep him in shape, he is my guy and I love him. He means as much to me as anyone's registered horse means to them. The difference is they may have something that is worth breeding, I DO NOT!


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> SAsamone, you have taken this on a tangent of 'grade haters' vs 'grade lovers' I think. The thing is, no one here hates grades. They can be really awesome, we all know and accept that.
> 
> They still shouldn't be bred from.


No, my tangent was a couple pages over lol...this is me just asking a question... I really want to understand the views people have, and I do now. I understand why people are saying what they are saying. Do I agree? To some extent, yes. I just could never understand why everyone was so all over "registered horses" when to me, a horse is a horse no matter what, even when it comes to breeding. However, I now understand the opposite spectrum of resale value, which I didn't think about before. (thanks smrobs lol)


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## ashxcx (Mar 27, 2011)

uhhh...none of them?


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

I just think it's sad that Papers are all some people look for in a horse. There are so many unwanted "grade" horses I would take in a heart beat over a registered horse. 

And yes I agree if less people bred "grade" and they bred registered horses a little more carefully and responsibly we would have less un-wanted horses. 

I get that but my whole thing was freedom of choice if joe bob from down the street wants to breed his horses just cause they're pretty who am I to stop him. It's going to happen..


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Buckcherry said:


> I just think it's sad that Papers are all some people look for in a horse. There are so many unwanted "grade" horses I would take in a heart beat over a registered horse.
> 
> *You for get it is not just about papers it is what papers give you. History.*
> 
> ...



They can have all the choice they want. I am all for choice. As long as they have the money to train the resulting horse so that it is marketable or keep it for the rest of its life. How many people can and do do that? Especially the ones who are out there breeding grade horses.

It is not about a choice it is about a horse. A living thing.

You know how many foster dogs I have right now b/c someone wanted that choice?


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

You can't stop him, but you can hopefully educate or disagree with him or at the very least not contribute to the problem yourself by saying "they're your horses do whatever you want."

It's like my niece this morning. 6 yrs old she wants to breed Lily (grade Welsh) because she wants a "cute little baby to cuddle with and she loves Lily, so yay." Now I could just go along with it (she is 6 after all) or I could talk to her (kindly of course) about the consequences of breeding Lily. Hopefully by getting her to think about the consquences of the decision (even a hypothetical one) I've made her think of the bigger picture. 

Now obviously that's a 6 yr old and a bit of a different situation. But the point stands. If no one evers says something is bad/wrong nothing will ever change. 

As for grade horses not being as "good" as registered horses. I wouldn't say that's true at all. Registered horses do have a greater potential for resale and it's easier to predict what they may excel at later in life. Grades are more of a crapshoot. You can definitely get an incredible horse, but you might end up with a bad/lame horse or at the worst a horse with a major genetic defect (HYPP, Herda, etc).


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Just wanted to add that just because a horse has papers, That _still _doesn't make it breeding quality. 


Rks Beaus Rockin Doll Pony of Americas
*rks beaus rockin doll*

"Farah" Not breed quality. Cowhocked and body not proportioned right. 


Shocking Jet Cash Quarter Horse
*shocking jet cash* (deceased) :-(

"Shocks" Not breeding quality. Weak hind end, slightly cow hocked, stunted growth.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I gave up reading at 100 posts, but will add a couple of comments anyways...

In December, I sold a registered Arabian mare. We bought her for $800. We had her trained, and the money spent was worth it because I was able to watch a horse go from never saddled to green broke. I rode her out some, and then my youngest daughter rode her for about 9 months. But 3 horses was more than we used, and they weren't getting enough exercise, so I sold one.

I wanted her to go to a good home, so she never was advertised. With about $3000 into her, I sold her for....$600. 8 year old Arabian mare, purebred, gentle, in-your-pocket kind of horse, good for a 12 year old to ride, and I sold her for $600. Because the market is in the toilet.

So my question to the grade breeders would be, "If you can buy a purebred Arabian broke for a young girl to ride, gentle and loving, for $600...why are you breeding? And who do you think will want what you breed?"

Yes, grade horses can be wonderful. Trooper is turning into a good 11 year old Appaloosa gelding with no papers. Accidental breeding when an Appy stallion broke thru one fence and bred an Arabian mare thru another. Nothing intentional - and the owner of the mare was ****ed - but a good horse came about by chance (and training). Oh - and he's a gelding!

No one told the OP to sell her mare for glue, but neither stallion will give a horse that can recover the cost of foaling.

My youngest on the mare we sold for $600:










Just as a personal note, the little mare is being ridden daily at her new home and doing great.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think a lot of people are missing then point entirely. NOBODY is saying don't buy Grade horses. Nobody is expecting ANYBODY to "have the money" to buy a fancy registered reining horse. We're saying BUY your Grades, don't BREED your Grades. There are SO many inexpensive horses out there, both registered and Grade, it is absolutely asinine to breed anything mediocre right now because the market is flooded.

And on that tangent, NOBODY is saying it's "fine and dandy" to breed registered horses. Papers still mean nothing if the breeding is crappy. You may get an extra $50 but the entire point is about giving the foal _the best chance possible. _And the best chance possible DOES mean being registered for a start. It also means breeding responsibly, and breeding for a purpose. "KYoot foal" is not a purpose.

I bought Jynx. She's unregistered and therefore a Grade, even though I do know her bloodlines. I would NEVER breed from her, regardless of how nice her conformation may be, because there are MILLIONS like her. Because at the end of the day, nobody cares how darn good looking her foal is, all they know is she's unregistered.

And all you anti-slaughter folks can think of it this way - for every foal YOU breed, that's one more foal that IS going to slaughter because you chose to breed instead of buy. Like it or not, you are JUST as much a part of the problem as anyone else. It's easy to get ostrich syndrome and convince yourself one more foal won't hurt, but it does.


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## Juna (Apr 4, 2010)

Great post, Macabre!! I agree 100%.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Very well said Macabre!


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## Cowgirl140ty (Jan 7, 2010)

I tend to agree with those who are against breeding grade horses. There are so many grade horses already that no body really knows anything about. All the owner can do is speculate (I think he/she has these bloodlines.). 
Thats not saying grade horses are bad. We have a grade palomino. We have had him since he was 4. Now hes goin on 22. He has been an awesome horse. Not having papers didnt make him any less of a horse... just a horse we have no history on. 
Now that being said... for the people who can breed registered horses resbonsibly... I say go for it. The breeder all 3 of my horses came from has a waiting list for her foals. She breeds 3 mares a year... THAT IS IT! 
And she sends the weanlings all over the world and U.S. So she is obviously doin something right, because these foals arent being sold rock bottom prices... the are being sold for $4000-5000.
And I plan on breeding my mare next year for a 2012 baby to a son of Peptoboonsmal. Once the baby is weaned I will sell her to a family who has been dying to buy her.


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

After watching and reading this whole thread, I agree with the majority. I love grade horses and papered horses both. My pony was a grade, no clue what breed paid $400 for him at an auction he was 4 years old and greenbroke, this was 14 years ago. Today he probably would have been $200 or less. Honestly the barrel horse market hasn't dropped a whole lot. My friend just paid $2,000 for a good bred broke 3 yr old. I spent $700 on a well bred 2 yr old. Most people want papers even if they know the papers don't mean the horse will win. Least then you know what your horse comes from. Trying to sale a really nice grade barrel mare for 2,000 that anyone could ride proved difficult. People didn't want to pay that much for a grade even as well broke as she was. So I wouldn't bred a grade horse, even with good training they'll never be wanted as much. And there's so many. And I have 2 horses 1 cost me $500 the other $700 both bought as 2 yr olds and papered. I didn't have to feed them for 2 years of their life and I have 2 nice mares.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ArabianLover2456 (Oct 5, 2010)

> Well after conetring everything you guys said I desided to go my own way. My mare will hopefully be bred around May to the Appaloosa Stallion. The foal is not going to be sold and this will be my mares last foal (if she gets pregnant) I'm also hoping to Reg 'Min Fray' and the foal with ATHA but as of now shes unreg'ed. Unlike you guys I can not afford a 10,000$ horse and all I want is a horse to love, ride and possably show a little.
> 
> So you might as well leave this forum I woun't be looking at it again.


your pathetic. enough said.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I wish I could afford a $10,000 horse! LOL


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Ray MacDonald said:


> I wish I could afford a $10,000 horse! LOL



Me too.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No kidding. My most expensive horse I've ever bought for myself was $150 :lol:.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I have horses that I have sold for way more then that. That is why I breed. I can not afford a horse at the level that I breed.


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## raywonk (Jan 9, 2011)

you can aford one now. I have been shopping for a student and you would not belave the quality that is out thier for just $3000. I wish i had money lying around cause I would grab these nice horses and then wait you know the market will get better.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

raywonk said:


> you can aford one now. I have been shopping for a student and you would not belave the quality that is out thier for just $3000. I wish i had money lying around cause I would grab these nice horses and then wait you know the market will get better.


That is so true! I just found one for a student as well and found her a perfect all-around youth horse for a fraction of what previous owners paid. I think if I bought more my hubby would make me sleep in the barn :lol:


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## raywonk (Jan 9, 2011)

yah I have to share a farm with two other horse people and they are already screaming about me buying one for my student. I want to get two one for me and one for her. 
think they will notice a nother horse.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Find a black and sneak it in at night :lol:

I have 10 and a mare due in 12 days...maybe the hubby wouldn't notice another one :think:


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

I have seven and don't want any more at all. Unfortunately, someone may have had other plans for me. America (the gelding that turned out NOT to be a gelding) was out in the lot and Dancer came up to the fence yesterday. America got to Dancer _through the fence_. America is back in the round pen with Rain and will be gelded at the end of the month. I hate that we are going to be gelding him in fly season, but I think it's safer than waiting since he apparently is no respector of fences.

How long do you have to wait to have a mare pregnancy checked? (or, is it better to just get her the "day after" shot no matter what?) Dancer isn't young, and I DON'T WANT ANY MORE BABIES, DANGIT!!!!


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

We ultrasound at 14-16 days. Have never used one of the shots myself, but my friend had the neighbor's stud jump their fence (Fjord stud, paint mares)...they went ahead and did u/s first, only one took fortunately & she gave her shots, they did small doses of lutalyse over a few days I think.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm talking to thin air as our ever-so-understanding OP has left in a huff :roll:.

But, whoever said anything about $10,000 horses?? 7 of the 12 horses I've owned in my life have been registered, yet not one of them was purchased for more than 1k. I agree 100% with what the majority has said, and just wish people would breed more responsibly.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

Thanks. I hope she didn't take, but will get a vet appointment set up. It's time for her shots anyway. I hope that America didn't get the job done - he's only dropped one nut. Previous owner still insists that he's been gelded. Guess someone missed something...:-(


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

You need to set something up for Rain too. Unless you want her dropping a foal at two years old.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> You need to set something up for Rain too. Unless you want her dropping a foal at two years old.


She'd have to be pregnant for a awfully long time to drop one at two years old. She's only nine months old. I don't dare turn her out in the lot - she hasn't been away from momma long enough yet. May have to run to TSC and get some panels to make a temporary run...or a cheaper idea may be to dismantle the round pen and make two runs that way. They'd be small, but they would work for a while. Would only have to buy one more gate that way...


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

> There is no registration requirement to show in any class in NRHA NRCHA NCHA. So yes even grade horses can show in the futurities.
> 
> So again I ask why do you not see grade horses in the futurities or even at the top of the affiliate year end awards.


Jeeze that took forever to read... haha :lol:

Can I comment on this? Ok great... You dont see it because most people who show at that level can afford something more than a grade horse..... just sayin.... I agree with all the things said here.... I also agree with the few that said we shoulda been a little nicer.... but she needed to know so oh well....


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

dee said:


> She'd have to be pregnant for a awfully long time to drop one at two years old. She's only nine months old. I don't dare turn her out in the lot - she hasn't been away from momma long enough yet. May have to run to TSC and get some panels to make a temporary run...or a cheaper idea may be to dismantle the round pen and make two runs that way. They'd be small, but they would work for a while. Would only have to buy one more gate that way...


Would still be her "two year old year." (i.e. she is considered a yearling this eyar) She _is_ old enough to get pregnant. If I were in your position I would put her back out with her dam and keep both away from America until he is gelded, _then_ go back to weaning.

Since you have her in with him, you _need_ to have her either lute'd or you need to have her checked to make sure she isn't pregnant when it is all said and done. A nine month old is very capable of getting pregnant.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

Since she'll be going to the vet at the same time as Dancer, we'll add a pregnancy check for her. I'll turn her out with the girls in the morning - it's too dark out there to turn her into a strange pasture tonight. 

If it's not one thing it's another!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No doubt. Always seems that way with horses!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

lol I think this has been the funniest thread I've been a part of..I mean look where it started and where it is now...AND! for that matter..I've been wanting to know WTH Koba is??????


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

Yeah what is Koba??? lol I was thinking maybe it was another horse..... but I have no idea if she doesnt have another one..... Maybe its a dog haha I dont know


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I have been watching this thread with some interest and it seems to have taken a few twists and turns until we find ourselves here:



JerBear said:


> Jeeze that took forever to read... haha :lol:
> 
> Can I comment on this? Ok great... You dont see it because most people who show at that level can afford something more than a grade horse..... just sayin.... I agree with all the things said here.... I also agree with the few that said we shoulda been a little nicer.... but she needed to know so oh well....


Now, anything I add is purely for discussion purposes and simply from my own observations. Certainly not a personal attack you JerBear but I found your words to be interesting.

My thoughts are this: You don't see many grade horses at the top level of ANY equine pursuit simply because they have so many different elements of different breeds mixed into them, not so much because people just wish to spend money on papers.

Breeds are purpose bred for, well, a specific purpose. 

Thoroughbreds are bred for speed and agility making them racehorses but also with considerable talent in upper level eventing. Warmbloods are bred for uphill type conformation, big flowing paces and athleticism. Arabians *should be* bred for stamina and grit (beauty comes free) and QH's are bred for short bursts of speed, agility and strength.

So it is not surprising that TB's dominate the race track, steeple chase and eventing, WB's dominate dressage and showjumping, Arabians dominate endurance and QH's dominate cutting/roping events.

Each of these breeds have been carefully selected for to enhance the natural traits that we deem useful for a purpose, and so, on average, the breed is more suited to a given dicipline than other breeds. Like any normally distributed sample there are extremes at each end but the average, which is the vast majority, have certain traits that are to be expected of the breed.

Now, that doesn't mean that a registered purebred is _better_ than another horse, or indeed that just because a horse is registered that it will excel in any environment - imagine a Warmblood trying to sort cattle? Or a QH trying to last a 2 mile race against a field of TB's? Or a TB trying to beat an Arabian over 100 miles? An Arabian trying to out jump a Warmblood? Sure it _could_ happen but the law of averages tells us that it is unlikely. 

Grade horses, I love them. If there was a sport for 'best allrounder' then perhaps the Grade horses would reign supreme. More than any other breed of horse they have the potential to be the' jack of all trades but master of none.' Of the equine pursuits I listed above, a grade horse could probably have a red hot go at all of them. But don't expect to see them in the winners circle often.

With Grade horses, their best attribute, that they are good allrounders, is also their greatest drawback since simply being _good_ at something will not get you to the top of the field, to do that you must be _exceptional_.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^
LIKE

:clap:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

raywonk said:


> you can aford one now. I have been shopping for a student and you would not belave the quality that is out thier for just $3000. I wish i had money lying around cause I would grab these nice horses and then wait you know the market will get better.


I could not find one like I breed for under $25K+. You will not find one for $3K. If they where out there my trainer would be grabbing them up left and right along with a lot of others I know. Reiners have gone up every year.


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## raywonk (Jan 9, 2011)

The rainers must not have droped like the all around horses. I have been having such a good time looking at horses I never could have aforded 5 yrs ago.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

^Definitely true. All-arounders are a steal right now. Horses at the top of their game in intensively competitive disciplines, reiners, cutters, high quality roping horses are all still bringing good money. I think that it's great myself as those are the types of horses I breed, we haven't felt the hit like a lot of other breeders. The foal I am waiting on now is already sold, provided it isn't exactly what I'm after for myself, if I get a black filly I will have some disappointed buyers...so in some respects it's a buyers market as well as a sellers, depending on what you are after/have.


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## raywonk (Jan 9, 2011)

Which makes me very lucky cause the horses I want are lower priced I just need to make a few more stalls and build some fence.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

It's funny because I swear we have the opposite situation here - where I live has such a truly pathetic quality show/breeding community, nobody can sell their champions and well bred foals. We just don't have the interest in province - the top breeders just don't have a market here and it's so sad. I've seen champion reiners and cutters for sale for over 6 months and the prices just keep dropping.

Trail and grade horses? Everyone is CLAMORING for them. We have a cheapskate horse dumb community, and everyone is looking for a "cheap" trail horse in as much that with any amount of decent trail experience, you can get over $2,000 for one right now. Granted, the issue is that you really can't make money on a trail horse as it boils down to experience far more then training and the time you have to put in to get a good reliable trail horse just isn't worth the $2,000 you're going to get in the end.

But just kind of sad how our economy works! I feel sorry for every person busting their butts to sell quality stock in a community where people wouldn't know quality if it kicked them in the head! :-(


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Thing is that there is not a big market for reiners her locally. I do not even try to market or sell then locally. Now I do not have to go fare as there are a lot of reiners in Ohio and Mi. Thing is you have to know where your market is and advertise accordingly.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think the biggest issue is we simply don't have the recognition or respect in Manitoba. Our closest market for reiner/cutter type horses is Alberta and that's a over a thousand miles away. Saskatchewan is almost as horse poor as we are, and Ontario is into English riding almost exclusively. So people in Alberta just aren't interested enough in what we're offering to pay the shipping costs when they have just as good/better in their own area.

Quite frankly though, anyone setting up shop in Manitoba SHOULD know better from the get go.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Ontario has a lot of reiners. My trainer goes up there quite a bit. 

I can under stand that location is a issue to some extent. Shipping and marketing into the US might be a better option really. Just depends on what you have to offer too.


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