# Horse runs off under saddle



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

What are you using for a bit? An inexperienced horse will run in to pain, ie the bit. The more you pull the more he tries to go thro it. This can also happen if he has dental issues.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

What are you doing with your legs?

He could be very pressure sensitive. I used my gelding last week as a new mount for a student moving up. She couldn't get him to 'stop' and not jig. I told her to relax her legs, boom - horse stop moving.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Two things come to mind.

1. He's highly trained and you are jabbing his buttons hard. Watch your cues carefully, ensure you are not telling him to go that hard.

2. He's hot because you're trying to fatten him back up from his lean times. Try backing off on his feed and see what happens. Not saying starve but try plain 'ol grass hay and whole oats, maybe some rice bran. Oats and rice bran help put on weight but don't make them hot.


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

> What are you using for a bit? An inexperienced horse will run in to pain, ie the bit. The more you pull the more he tries to go thro it. This can also happen if he has dental issues.


Saddlebag Thanks, Good point and you maybe onto something because he tends to drop alot of grain so maybe he has a bad tooth. He is 14 years old and I do not think he is inexpericanced I suspect it is something else. Been using a snaffle bit so I will try my hackamore on him to see if that helps. That would be easy ro rule that out.



> What are you doing with your legs?
> 
> He could be very pressure sensitive. I used my gelding last week as a new mount for a student moving up. She couldn't get him to 'stop' and not jig. I told her to relax her legs, boom - horse stop moving.


Thanks mls. We have been extreemly lite on him with all types of pressure, leg & bit pressure is next to nothing and when he is doing "good" you do not need to do hardly anything to get him to move or stop. Like yesterday we road him and from a stand say "Wally walk" and he walks or you can give him a very lite squeeze with your calves and he will walk out nice. To stop it's just "woah Wally" with slight bit pressure and he will stop. If you use a heavy hand with him it gets bad fast.



> Two things come to mind.
> 
> 1. He's highly trained and you are jabbing his buttons hard. Watch your cues carefully, ensure you are not telling him to go that hard.
> 
> 2. He's hot because you're trying to fatten him back up from his lean times. Try backing off on his feed and see what happens. Not saying starve but try plain 'ol grass hay and whole oats, maybe some rice bran. Oats and rice bran help put on weight but don't make them hot.


Thanks Darrin. To your first point yes I think he is highly trained BUT I don't think we a jabbing his buttons because like I said above we are so lite on him it isn't funny.

To your second point that could be if we were graining him just before working him but I feed his grain early in the morning (6am) and usually do not ride him until 3 or 4 pm.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Sounds to me that he is probably trained but spoiled and allowed to do what he wanted to do before you got him. I have seen that kind of attitude in horses ridden by kids who want to run run run, or horses that have been used in fast sports: barrel racing, poles, etc. They know that they will get to run, so do it when they want to. Jigging, running, prancing horses are loved by some folks, makes them feel like a big shot, so encourage the behaviour.
Maybe he was left when the folks moved because they were not able to sell him because of his issues. Then he is feeling healthy and fed and his true attitude is showing up.
Might be worthwhile to have him spend some time with a good trainer who can figure out what exactly sets him off and figure out a way between you and trainer to put a stop or at least be able to control the behaviour.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

So many horses are ruined because they outsmart inexperienced riders and get away with it, and then throw a fit when someone who has a clue gets on.
I'm guessing something like that happened. You have to just go for some short rides and quit the moment he does something you want him to do. Pick something at the beginning of your ride - walking, stopping and then backing up. One motion really. And when he does it, reward him by calling it good for the day.


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

> Sounds to me that he is probably trained but spoiled and allowed to do what he wanted to do before you got him. I have seen that kind of attitude in horses ridden by kids who want to run run run, or horses that have been used in fast sports: barrel racing, poles, etc. They know that they will get to run, so do it when they want to. Jigging, running, prancing horses are loved by some folks, makes them feel like a big shot, so encourage the behaviour.
> Maybe he was left when the folks moved because they were not able to sell him because of his issues. Then he is feeling healthy and fed and his true attitude is showing up.
> Might be worthwhile to have him spend some time with a good trainer who can figure out what exactly sets him off and figure out a way between you and trainer to put a stop or at least be able to control the behaviour.


wyominggrandma thanks for the input. What you describe is exactly what we had on our hands when we first got my daugthers paint. Well trained but had been left for years to do whatever she wanted. After teaching her manners in the round pen and my daughter riding her and building trust and respect she is sweet as pie, thats why she is named sugar. 

Now Wally, the horse in issue, is hard to read. I should add a couple of things about his behavior. If he is off a lead he is very jump and head shy, more with me than with my wife. If you place a lead on him it's like you flipped a switch and he is a differant horse, still a little head shy but only if you move real fast around his head. With a lead on him you can swing a rope around him and he will not nove uness you tell him to. You can toss the lead over his neck, back, around his flanks, legs, feet with no issue. He stands great for the farrier and he will pick up his feed almost on voice command. All you have to do is bend over like your going to pick it up, tell him to pick it up and he does. The first time he did this for me, he did it so fast it scared me. LOL

I'm going to try the hackamore tonight and see if we get differant results. If so I'll have the vet out to check his teeth. He is kinda funny about his mouth, he takes a bit without any issue but will not let you look at his hind teeth.


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

> So many horses are ruined because they outsmart inexperienced riders and get away with it, and then throw a fit when someone who has a clue gets on.
> I'm guessing something like that happened. You have to just go for some short rides and quit the moment he does something you want him to do. Pick something at the beginning of your ride - walking, stopping and then backing up. One motion really. And when he does it, reward him by calling it good for the day.


QHriderKE thanks. I would tend to agree with you as I have two hoses that came from rescue that acted like that. I grew up riding horses on our family farm and I developed a good feel to read a horses mood, content, scared, angry, sad or just kinda being ****y (like my warm blood mare most of the time lol). Anyway the point is the other horses that were acting out felt angry or ****y but Wally flat out looks scared, like he is just waiting for you to get off and beat him. Its like he goes into panic mode and fogets what he is trained to do.


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## calicokatt (Mar 5, 2012)

It sounds like you're pretty experienced, have you tried letting him run until he's ready to stop and then just moving on like nothing happened? If he gets no reaction from you, its possible you could break the fear cycle (assuming that's what it is). It may take a few times, and it may not work at all, but if you can do it in a safe area, it might be worth a try.

In any case, it does sound like he's making progress with the way you're progressing now, since he doesn't do it immediately any more. Good luck! Sometimes figuring out what makes an abuse/neglect case tick can be a royal pain...


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

> It sounds like you're pretty experienced, have you tried letting him run until he's ready to stop and then just moving on like nothing happened? If he gets no reaction from you, its possible you could break the fear cycle (assuming that's what it is). It may take a few times, and it may not work at all, but if you can do it in a safe area, it might be worth a try.
> 
> In any case, it does sound like he's making progress with the way you're progressing now, since he doesn't do it immediately any more. Good luck! Sometimes figuring out what makes an abuse/neglect case tick can be a royal pain...


calicokatt thanks that what my mom & dad both said to do. Well my dad said to let him run then after he starts to slow make hime run some more do this a couple times then TELL him to walk. He says the key to this is to not let him stop when "he wants" make it in your command. My dad had a mare that you had to do this every spring on the first couple of rides. I remember it and when I was young it was kinda fun. The problem I have is that Wally doesn't exactly run in control, it feels crazy, like a scared deer. And in my experiance hi speed crashes are usually worse than low speed. LOL! If some of the other things don't work I'll give this a try.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

calicokatt said:


> It sounds like you're pretty experienced, have you tried letting him run until he's ready to stop


On the other hand, that would be letting the horse do what it wants.

Now loping a horse out in a confined area is work for the horse. Keeping it balanced, alternating circle size and leads will make it work harder and get it's attention. Throw in some roll backs and stops to break up the loping.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I don't know if abuse is a word I would use with this horse, probably trained and "cowboyed" by someone. By cowboyed, I mean some type trainers would use power when desensitizing a horse, instead of getting horse used to things by being gentle and slow. After all, the faster one can be trained the quicker a sale can be made. An easily tossed rope on the body teaches a horse to not be afraid, but a hard hit on the body by these same "trainers' teaches them to expect it to hurt.. A halter/rope put on easily teaches a horse to be caught and good comes from it, a halter/rope thrown on a horse, then chased to learn to "give" teaches them pain. A soft nudge at the right time to teach a horse to move forward, back, side to side teaches them softness and give, a hard spur will teach them the same thing, only they learn to run away from the hurt instead of give to it.
I still see "cowboy" training done alot by the "I am a cowboy" trainer and sure the horse learns fast, but is always in the "afraid to get pain mode, instead of obey/give mode. Then the horse got ridden by idiots who thought running, jigging and dance is cool, so that is what he learned to do.
It sounds like you are doing what needs to be done. I would almost start over and work slowly to teach him that riding is fun, handling is fun and to not be so super sensetive to every move and reaction. I don't agree about riding and letting him run, to me that just teaches him to escape is okay with you also. I do agree that riding him and stopping when he does something correct. I also think lots of round pen work, if he decides to run or not stop or do what you want, then run him till he stops and then make him run until you decide its okay to stop. Your idea to quit, not his. Riding and running him till he quits might be fine if you have a racetrack to run when he won't get hurt running with a rider, but not many places to safely run a horse out with a rider on his back. Especially for the rider if a high speed chase occurs.
Here is another explanation of what I meant: training dogs in the old way was easy, but a choke chain on them, then when they didn't walk by your side, sit/down when you asked, you choked their neck till they did. Jerk and release, jerk and release. Sure, this taught the dog fast, but every dog was afraid to even move in case they would get ripped in the neck by the chain. Quick responses, but automated ones. Now we train with rewards and clickers and affection: show them what to do, do one part of the movement, then a reward. They learn real fast that everytime they do whats asked, they get a reward. Now you see happy healthy tail wagging dogs, instead of slinking fearful ones.
Good training can make or break any animal.


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

> I don't know if abuse is a word I would use with this horse


Head shy and starved half to death is abuse in my book.



> By cowboyed, I mean some type trainers would use power when desensitizing a horse


In my experiance cowboy trained = abuse. Well it used to anyway, the guys I have seen now days have a handle on it but when I was a boy the trainers were all heavy handed.

Wally has been hit and hurt bad by someone and in my book that is abuse. The only time I have stuck my animals, any of them (we have 4 horses, 2 ponies & 2 dogs) is when they have harmed or almost harmed a human. Case in point when I first got Ash he nipped at me and I gave him a good wack on the nose (only once, but hard enough to let him know I wasn'y playing), then I got in his face and made him think I was about to eat him. I then made him stand untill he relaxed, head down licking his lips, then I brushed him out. He never did it again. I was tought you have about 3 seconds to react to a horse when they do someting like that. My dad taught me that the punishment should fit the crime.

With Wally a gental pan on the neck turns him to stone.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

okay, starved to death is abuse, Bones was 500 lbs underweight when we got him, the owner was driving a brand new truck, didn't want to feed the horse. Abuse, yes.
Head shy doesn't even mean horse was hit. I have had head shy horses because they were eared down, twitched, etc.. Not training I would use, but it is still done all the time.. I think of this as bad training, not abuse.
Sometimes animals don't know what a soft hand and affection is... They do turn to stone when you pat them, they have never had a kind hand on them, just rough hands. Again, not what I consider abuse, just never known a kind pat and kind word.
I have seen abuse or what I consider abuse: burn marks on animals, broken bones from a kick, scarring around the head, genitals, tail........... Signs of abuse and horrible treatment. That to me is abuse, actually physical scars. 
Just because an animal shows signs of not knowing actual physical tough, a gentle loving touch, it doesn't mean abuse, it means an owner that never showed affection or kindness. Mental abuse, sure... 
I was talking physical abuse.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I am not trying to argue about your horse, so please don't take it that way. I just use the word abused differently than alot of folks, because in my job I have truly seen the difference between abuse and bad training, no training or a spoiled animal.
Good luck with Wally, sounds like he finally has good owners to love and care for him.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm sending you patience. I would like to suggest that you either find a trainer to help you OR you plunk down the money on Clinton Anderson's starter training DVD's. We all bxxxx at the price of these things but they ALL cost less than an emergency room visit and a hospital stay.
PLEASE be careful. Right now, IMHO, this horse is an accident waiting to happen. I HOPE that you and your wife wear a helmet while you "ride" him.
REtraining a horse can take 10x as long as correct training a horse who hasn't been abused or neglected. And, YES, abandoning a horse is both abuse and neglect bc it's intentional, though YOU have done the right thing.
Good luck.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

JPD. There is a saying Rome wasn't built in a day. 
Likewise horses aren't made in a day (or two).
Give the fella a chance. Patience and persistance is needed

From what you've written, it seems that this chap has not been badly treated, he's been neglected. So re-build his trust in the humans he depends upon with routine - regular, predictable and constant. Build a relationship.

Ask of him, if he doesn't then do what you ask, then ask again.
Make sure he understands what you are asking for.

Remember you have to build in the horse the feeling that the horse can trust in you. If he runs off, then you haven't YET succeeded in building trust - so keep at it.


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## BDK Pony (May 10, 2012)

Unless I have seen a horse be abused. I am not always convinced that acting out as if they where abused is actually the case. 2 short story's here. 
7 year old broke walking horse never beat a day in his life. I know his whole history. Takes 3 people 20 mins to catch. Once caught will tremble and shake. Not scared of objects. Just people.
2nd: 4 yr old pony. rides and drive. Kids saddle up and ride or drive. Not a care in the world. Kids would ride him on the deck. This thing for his age was bomb proof. That is until I sent him to a timid person. 2 weeks later this pony was charging her. Couldnt touch him or catch him. And when you did he acted as if he had been beat.It took two of us to get him back in the trailer. And 3 of us to get him in a stall. This pony was nuts. Acted like he had been beat and abused. It was the total opposite. The woman would not correct him. such as walking in her space. She would just this lil turd run her raggid. It took a week to undo what she had done in that two weeks.
Back to the 7 yr old. He ended up riding just as you describe your horse. He would be fine than out of the blue he acted as if we where gonna kill him. And would try and run. He was not trying to go anywhere other than out from under the rider. He was not mean just scared.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I would get the horse vet checked. Eyes and teeth especially. Then i would check saddle fit and try to rule out pain as the issue. If he clears all that then its just wet saddle blankets and clear expectAtions.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

JPD said:


> To your second point that could be if we were graining him just before working him but I feed his grain early in the morning (6am) and usually do not ride him until 3 or 4 pm.


Not saying it is his problem but I think it's worth trying if for 3 or 4 days to see what happens. Just as an example, I have a horse now that I can amp up with a single feeding and it takes him a couple days to come fully down from his food high. When I first realized what was causing him his problems it took almost two weeks for him to return to his normal ways after changing his diet.


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the comments. 

Update:

Switched the snaffle out for my old hackamore last night and we spent about an hour on him in the round pen with no issues. 

Started out with lunging & disengagement exercises. Then placed the saddle and hackamore. Took turns on him for the next 45 minutes. Probably did 100 stops, starts, stops, back, turns. Didn't trot him as my wife was having such a good time just riding him at a walk that we decided to end on a good note and not "see" if he would go from stop, walk, trot, walk, stop without getting all juiced up. 

I did find out some nice things about him like he will start into a walk and stop with just a "walk" and "whoa". He also moves off leg pressure (I squeazed him so softly I couln't belive he even felt it) also moves off leg pressure left and right. 

Plan:
Tonight we are going to repeat last night. Saturday or Sunday we will move onto trotting him ad see if he will stay relaxed or if he get juiced up.


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

> I would get the horse vet checked. Eyes and teeth especially. Then i would check saddle fit and try to rule out pain as the issue. If he clears all that then its just wet saddle blankets and clear expectAtions.


Sahara, Yep going to have him out soon. He is out till next week.



> I'm sending you patience. I would like to suggest that you either find a trainer to help you OR you plunk down the money on Clinton Anderson's starter training DVD's. We all bxxxx at the price of these things but they ALL cost less than an emergency room visit and a hospital stay.
> PLEASE be careful. Right now, IMHO, this horse is an accident waiting to happen. I HOPE that you and your wife wear a helmet while you "ride" him.
> REtraining a horse can take 10x as long as correct training a horse who hasn't been abused or neglected. And, YES, abandoning a horse is both abuse and neglect bc it's intentional, though YOU have done the right thing.
> Good luck.


Corporal, thanks for sending the patience, sometimes mine runs low. LOL. I have horse training DVD's and like I said I grew up with them so training a horse from the ground up isn't totally new to me. I got on this forum to seek some ideas from other horse folk because I haven't had a guy like this before. The dvd's I have seen don't really go into "problem" horses, mainly they do a good job of stepping you thru how to train a green horse. I have had runners but not like this. I'm really hoping it is a tooth issue, and not a bad training issue. Based on his performance last night I'm leaning toward that. We will see. 

After all the work last night I saddle up my mare and sugar for my daughter, planning on a nice relaxing ride, and those two were both full of it too. LOL. My daughters paint was being real hard headed the big mare even gave me a buck going into a canter. I was thinking what the hell's going on untill Grace road up and said one of my sinch straps was slapping Nora on the belly when we were running. I secured the stap and no more issues. One problem horse is enough. LOL


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

If this horse seems to have had good foundation? Then I would look into pain issues.

Sounds more to me that horse either has broken rib, withers process, or who knows what, by the way he is reacting.

Only a thorough vet exam can rule some things out, and that means x-rays plus more of course.

But to keep trying to ride him, when he is telling you there is something wrong, is cruel. I would not say spoiled as much I say pain somewhere, of serious degree.

And might also check into cleaning his sheath, as that will do this too.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

JPD
There's a lot of expertise on this forum. If you look back in 'Horse training' you'll find a lot of tips from other riders - both English and Western. Horses don't really mind which way they are ridden.

'Fear' is the most dominant emotion in any horse.

If your new chap has been left alone for any length of time in a bare field perhaps without clean water then it will have developed 'fear' - which it will never forget. It may have even developed ulcers (which you must look out for). Ulcers cause pain in a horse and will give them instinctive reason to run

You, the new and, obviously, caring owner have to rebuild the trust of that horse in man - on which in this modern world the horse depends.

Riding a horse is one subject, training it is another, and horse husbandry is a third subject. The private horse owner has to learn all skills.

Corporal has repeated what I tried to hint at earlier - "take it easy. you've plenty of time". You must *build* trust.

The most important thing with a new horse is to establish a regular and constant routine. 
Appear and attend to the horse, if you can, at the same time at the same place and every day.
Handle it every day. Groom it every day. 

Use a quiet calm voice, build its confidence in you and eventually your family.
Take short steps in training.

In the UK , we'd call the vet in to check the animal over. Nowadays if buying a horse I'd always have a full vetting. There's also the farrier , the dentist, the back specialist, the saddler.

When we get a new horse on our ittle yard, the first months are spent on ground work - in hand stuff which aims to get the horse to walk at your shoulder on a long loose lead rope and to follow in turns, stops, stands, starts and back ups. Then we lunge it on a lead line.

Then eventually we get on its back- very, very, gingerly. And we do that when we know the bit and the saddle fits.

If in the early days the horse feels reason to freak out and run - then you will have a much harder job to make the animal into a safe carrier of your family. 

As I said - read up on threads in the Forum and, please, take it easy.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

He sounds like a typical "******* broke" horse. To me, that translates into totally untrained horse. There are a lot of guys around here who will get on a horse a few times, force him to carry them around a few times while jerking their mouth off with harsh bits, and then sell them and call them "broke". This is probably the main reason that horses are given away, thrown away, neglected, or sold for slaughter. I am a little late getting in on this discussion, but it sounds to me like you are on the right path, basically just starting over. Several of the others mentioned that it takes time and patience. I agree. Any horse that is half way civilized has had a lot of time put into its training.


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## liz48170 (May 14, 2012)

I would bond with him for a while and slow down training and expectations. He may turn out to be fantastic; or worthless, you just can never tell. I bought my first mare from a gal (with her trainer) who was fantastic with that rider and trainer. I trained on that horse for 6 weekends, 2 hours per week end looked her up down and all around Granted she is a Paso Fino (pleasure paso) so perhaps a bit hot. I got her home and she acted Psycho ...worse than a green broke horse and took me for many flying lessons. It took about 6 mo for her to trust me and not want to run off when I got on her back. Now, she is a trail blazer less I trip off then she still gets scared (fearful) - always my fault I underestimate the trafffic comming behind us or something else. She is a fearful horse and needs a leader she trusts. Takes time to build the relationship, some are EZ with everyone some take alot of time to get to know you some just are never going to good unless they get with a Pro who can wet saddle blanket them into a calm horse


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

Thanks again all for the input.

Been using the hackamore for riding in the round pen. He is doing good with my wife. We started sacking him out this week with tarps, plastic bags, & balls. We found he really needed this because he was real spooky around all of it. It was kind of nice to find something he had not been trained to do before. When we started round penning him he did everything like it was old hat to him but you can tell the "scarey" tarps and balls are new. Anyway since we have been doing this he is getting alot more comfortable around me. My wife has been doing the major part as we want Wally to trust her the most, I have been stepping in for some help as needed. After just one day of doing this the next morning when I fed him he was much more relaxed abound me. The day before he when I got into his space his head would go up & neck would get tight, but just after one day of building trust between us he just looks at me with his head down and relaxed.

While riding in the round pen we have been able to get him to start, walk, stop, walk, stop, stand 100% of the time. We have been able to get him to walk, trot, walk, stop, stand, walk, again about 80% of the time with my wife and about 50% of the time with me. If he starts to get a little amped up he with go walk, trot, walk, stop, then jump to a trot when you ask him to walk. If I let him stand and relax a few moments he will go back to a nice walk. 

We haven't road him since we started sacking hime out but I suspect, based on his mood improvments with me on the ground, he will be better under saddle. When we can get him to walk, trot, walk, stop, stand, & back to a walk without jumping out 100% of the time, we are going to move to the trail, to work on the same training.


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## liz48170 (May 14, 2012)

"So many horses are ruined because they outsmart inexperienced riders and get away with it, and then throw a fit when someone who has a clue gets on."

You are sooooo SPOT ON. I was stupid enough to pay for a "kids horse"; wanted one anyone could ride. Problems with me, not kids. I am a very gentle but firm rider. My new super timid mare just doesn't appreciate me tellin her what to do. I saw so many kids just jump on her back and she was sooo OK with that. Shes got alot of endurance in her body; just is so darn spoiled by kids, its going to take me a long time to teach her when I say "no grazin'" and give her a thump, I mean it. Now this one just quits on you when you tell her what to do, she doesn't run off. Not sure which is worse a quitter or a runner / worker. I have one of each now. Wish I could get just ONE darn horse that was a good 14 hand + or minus, endurance, super sweet, hard hoofs, EZ keeper, sensitive and attentive, not scared not timid....anyone got one? I am guessing - no matter what horse you buy, it will be different for YOU and it was for the its last owner, am I off here?


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/horse-runs-off-under-saddle-122892/#ixzz1vFAydP6T


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Well, liz-you're describing my horse, but I've had her for about 4 years & we are so bonded! For whatever reason, since I got her I was her only rider for awhile, & when a neighbor, & a kid I used to have ride some of my horses-tried to ride her, she let it be known (in a nice way) that she was MY horse. She has let my new riding partner ride her, but we don't make a habit of swapping horses. Of course, she is not for sale, but I see horses like you describe all the time. What part of the country are you in?


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## liz48170 (May 14, 2012)

Michigan. Warm weather this year; global warming. Pruned most of my Paso Fino Rosa in Feb (sorry not great with the horse terminology). 

It was so much work with horse #1, Rosa. Lots of time to get her to do all the stuff she could do, professionally trained and won many ribbons, also trail trained and I also trained for weeks and weeks on her before I bought her.

After I brought her home, I saw just how much she resented being sold. Over 6 month bonding and training with a calm ez goin trainer that also fed her, she finally let me ride her and we progressed from there. 5 yrs later Rosa is my trail blazer, super responsive super smart, spirited gal. No one can ride her less want to go for a flying lesson (other than me).

So, I thought well, lets take the EZ way out for horse #2, buy a super cute gentle anyone can ride her school horse. Cute as a button, wouldn't hurt a fly, super docile and submissive, Ha Ha the Joke is on me. I am the new barn *** - took that title from the donkey.

I bought Laila, super laid back yet super sturdy 50 miler endurance but a well used "school horse" 7 yr old Morab Mare also used and handled by local kids.

Thought - yep, this is going to be the horse I throw the saddle on and off we go into the sunset - so easy, so gentle, so sweet, such a great mover, durable, submissive, EZ keeper, hard as rock hoofs, used for kids, right?

Laila lets you think you are in charge, but Laila is THE BOSS Laila is the ONE in charge she, is just super patient and charming and cute as a button wouldn't hurt a fly but not easy to train after the KIDS have let her have her way for 4 yrs. 

KIDS ruin horses, yep - they do. And school horses school people..duh, not the other way around, not sure what I was thinking...

Here is where we are now with our 2 week old relationship. This was so charming at first, now it is not as cute, now it is downright a who is going to win, Laila or Liz contest.

Liz to "Laila, Lets go Laila, not going to give you treats, I alreay pet your head, lets go Laila, yes you are cute but lets go Laila". 

Liz to Laila, "Laila we have ground work to do, Laila, no I am not going to rub your head again, Laila, just did that, Laila, pay attention, good girl, no you arent getting a treat for that Laila, sorry no, no don't be giving me your head again to rub, I don't care how cute you are ...."

Laila to Liz, "human, you are supposed to pet me, give me treats, pet me, give me treats, don't you get it, did the super smart kids forget to school you, here we go again, Liz this is my head, pet my head, see my cute little mouth, put a treat into my mouth, I won't bite, go ahead Liz, just jump on my back oh yeah I really prefer bareback but I guess you can use a saddle if you must, I will take you out for a ride and we can go grazing together now isn't that fun, Liz. Don't get too firm with me Liz ...hey, look at me just STOP, Ha Ha when are you going to get it human, now, pet my head.."

Liz to Laila, "Laila, no, I am not going to pet your head, watch me push you away, no girl, no more petting, this ain't the petting zoo"

Laila to Liz, " boss me around, even the slightest firmness I just don't go so you may as well just quit it now. Now, Liz lets do some groundwork together, shall we

Liz to Laila, "knock it off....back to work"

Laila to Liz, "dumb human, here we go again, my HEAD is down and I am submissive. Just take your hand and rub my head, see I am not pushy, I don't bit or even nip jump spook, I am just soooo super cute and sweet, now Liz, hand up and RUB my head, OK got that one Liz, 

Now give me a treat why can't you get that one down we have been through this over and over and you are not that smart..... 

Where are those Super Smart KIDS that I have schooled, so much more to my liking, so much smarter, they are trained in 2 seconds, and we have been at this 2 weeks....

how long is it going to take for me to train you Liz, 

Liz to Laila, "lets try to move with dressage cues, OK, I will push you around physically won't hurt you just move"

Laila to Liz, "whip, Ha Ha, I nibble at those, look, aren't I cute? Now heres my head, rub it please. ...you are not too smart, are you human...Rope with popper, Ha Ha, see me nibble and take it away from you aren't I cure, Ha Ha now treat please

Hay that was a really cute great trick I just did for you, you just don't appreciate me yet, when I nibble on these thing'ees that you use to try to train me, thats your CUE Liz to stop it now and pet me and give me a treat, where are the KIDS where are the KIDS, OK Liz, now, my head, your hand, my treat..."

I will keep you posted on how far we get and when. 

This super laid back super docile Laila may be the one that BREAKS me yet. 

2 weeks now, this has been the ongoing daily relationship, nothin has changed, pocket pet, she is trying so hard and is so patient, tryin to school me it stopped being cute or funny long time ago.....

Laila gives "school horse" a whole new meaning.......

Hopefully she will come around - 

Less I just give in and give her to the KIDS or Zoo

KIDS ruin horses 'cause HORSES are just too darn smart, smarter than us humans, amazing they ever let us have our way, they can and will outsmart us, just by acting so cute and adorable ....


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

Liz

That was funny, I like how you did voice of the horse. LOL

That is how my daughters paint, sugar, was when we first got her. Yes ANYONE could get on her but making he move and mind was a differant story. After a few days of the same thing you described the "cute nibble on the whip", I had to "bite" her with the it to get her moving in the round pen. After I got her feet moving it didn't take long for her to figure it out. When we would change direction she had a BAD habbit of coming in on you and if you didn't move she would bump you. So before I turned the strick over to my 9 YO daughter I had to "nip" her on the neck, just once, when she tried to be pushy. Now my daugther can get in the round pen with her and sugar is almost 100% respectfull, she will go left, right, turn in, turn out, walk, trot, and come in to you on cue. She will disengage front and hind qtrs. She will walk over tarps, you can bounce balls off her front & rear legs and no movement at all. She is almost bomb proof, she has a problem with noisy trailers on the road. When my daughter rides her she is almost 100% respectfull under saddle, the only habit she has is trying to turn for home. The first couple of times my daughter had to turn her around a few times to get her to remeber who was in charge, but now if she trys, Grace just tells her "no" and makes an adjustment with the rains and Sugar falls in line. If someone new gets in the saddle Sugar will test them and see if they will make her listen, if they don't make her listen she will set the bit and they will have a hard time with her. Whenever one of Graces friends comes over and wants to ride Sugar I tell them as soon as she tries to do something on her own get heavy on the bit for just a couple pulls then let her have loose rain. 90% of the time this works and she will not test them again. 

Anyway my point is do not be afraid to use the stick to simulate a "nip" or "bite" just as any higher ranking horse would do with their teeth. I only had to nip sugar 2 or 3 times before she got the idea, now when she starts to get a bit pushy or can't remember who the bass is all she has to do is hear the stick whip the air and she is on the move.


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## liz48170 (May 14, 2012)

JPD said:


> Liz
> 
> That was funny, I like how you did voice of the horse. LOL
> 
> ...


Well, today we took our first lesson with my barn manager / trainer; one of the best horsemen I have ever met; 55 yrs in the business.

First 5 minutes in the rope and halter, he says, "What were thinin? Liz, this horse is below what we even call what we call GREENbroke, no training at all, no way a school horse, doubt you can even ride her, no way a horse you can ride, see she is draggin her foot, see her tail, she is whippin me with it like its a dressage whip, look at her ears, she WONT even go counter clock wise at all, even a movement that way - nothin...how you say you rode her around the arena? No way, I am guessing shes got some neurological disorder, cant even move her foot to the left, see her draggin it like hoof is broke, won't even let me handle her feet, you said they had a ferrier trim her, must have drugged her, never seen this before even with a GREEN never handled horse their HOOFS move when you do this bla bla ..."

I said "SPOILED, passive aggressive mare that thinks she is a PET HORSE, handled by lots of kids, rides fine, took riders that never been on a horse around the arena a few times, got her head rubbed, treats, wants to be a PET horse, not a real horse and she is a good size muscled out gal. I rode her rode her rode she walks out fast, has a gorgeous smooth trot especially on the straight, good on the round and does move nicely counter clockwise

Well, my trainer knows I am no cowgirl, so he kept on going 

He would have stopped given her "totally off the range, never seen a human, sorry trainer, don't get it, nay nay its going to be a really long day attitude"

But I said, nail her butt, however whatever it takes, she is playin you like you are a total fool, Laila is the smartest darn most spoiled horse and she is playin with you so you will give up, she is playin a game and runnin the show here, its getting funny sorry Steve but seriously, don't let this spoiled mare give you the "I am a totally never seen a human GREEN horse, its getting late dinner is waitin'...dumb *** human"

I said "do whatever you want to her, whoop the snot out of her"

Now, Laila is still swoshin that tail, like she is whippin us, ears pinned, legs broken, at least one depending on which way you want her to move, oh...there she goes with the "pet my head please and I will ge a good girl"


So, I stook back just watchin. I put my bet on Steve, my horse manager / trainer. 

Within 20 minutes, he had that darn spoiled brat movin in a circle round the arena, really rough trot said "nothin you can post to, nothin you can sit, a GREEN horse"

I kept firm in my "SHE's a SPOILED ROTTEN HORSE", go make her do it


Amazing, 20 minute fight, finally bridles her, adds saddle, reins behind saddle, wack the saddle wack the saddle as obviously, horse don't care if you wack her, doesn't scare her...

Well, she finally gave in.

Put me on that horse (I was not afraid cause I rode her already), and gosh darn she had her head set right, lovely smooth trot, no spoiled horse, stopped on command, responsive, attentive

30 minutes later we ended the lesson

We have the vet comming out anyway to check out these "legs that drag" hopefully just another game of hers, have not seen it before

I will NEVER buy a kids handled kids horse again, ever. Give me a GREEN horse, these horses are just so darn smart, its easier to train them if they are green than untrain them if they are SPOILED rotten, as they know every trick in the book, and have gotten treats for poor behavior (cute as it may be, bad spoiled rotten behavior).

BTW:

I had to give the barn mini *** back his Title because he is so gosh darn smart, the smartest animal I have ever encountered


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

If your manager/trainer was making a call after 5 min in the round pen you better find a better trainer. Either he didn't want to try or dosn't know what hes talking about. You can't tell anything about a horses training untill you can get them moving, then they will start to show you what they know. The horse at the top of the pecking order is the one that can move every other horse in the herd, you move the feet you move up in rank. 

One thing to keep in mind if your horse is that smart she will know the differance between you and the trainer, thats why I don't put my faith in any trainer that picks up your horse takes it for a month and brings it back "broke". 

For example with my my daughters (Grace) horse, Sugar, I started round pen training and she would hardly move. After a couple days she was doing it all. Then I handed the stick & rope ofer to Grace and she went back to acting like an untrained horse. So I step back in the circle, with Grace and teach her By standing behind her and controlling her arm and hand movements (just like teaching her to swing a baseball bat) how to move Sugar. The next day Grace is goes it alone and after about 5 min of Sugar ****ing around Grace get her going. Two days later Grace can get her to do all the things Sugar had been trained to do. My point to all this make sure you are doing the training to build the trust with your horse.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I used to do a lot of mounted games when I was a child in England and my ponies were very sharp - 0 to 60 in seconds, stop dead and turn to very light commands. In the right hands they were perfect in the wrong hands quite dangerous. My mare who I retired last year is also very 'hot' and can get excitable but safe as houses to me because what she does is what I grew up used too. I literally just have to 'think' the aids and ride her with a very relaxed seat. If someone rode her with too much pressure and tension she would be just like the horse you describe. I've had her for 18 years and she has always been the same, it could be that you are not the right sort of rider for this sort of horse and if things don't settle down should consider moving him on to someone who is used to his type and will calm him and enjoy him for what he is.
A lot of horses hate a severe bit and as someone else said already will panic and run away from it. There is a difference between a horse thats hard to hold because its strong and likes to run and one that is bolting out of panic or fear/pain
Get his back checked out by your veterinarian as he may have pain there
Check your saddle fits correctly, if its western is that what he's used too. I also have a mare that gets a bit antzy if ridden without a good thick numnah/saddle pad. Some horses really struggle with even a little bit of discomfort and that soon turns to tension.
Get his poo sampled for worms - they can get resistant to wormers and a belly full of parasites can turn the best horses into fractious rides
Have him tested for Lymes disease, it doesn't always cause lameness in affected animals but can cause serious neurological problems
Get his teeth checked, a mare of ours was still eating fine but began acting very similar to your horse under saddle, turned out she had a bad abcess at the back of her mouth, She was ridden in a hackamore until it healed.
We once bought an ex racehorse that also behaved like yours, he actually began sweating the moment a rider got on him he was so stressed, we cured him by leading him without a rider off a very solid reliable horse for a few weeks until he got the idea that working with a saddle on was not something to get worked up about we then put a rider on him and did the same for a few months, starting off in an enclosed area and then out onto the trails. he gradually learnt to relax and became probably the best showjumper we ever owned. he was always forward going but totally reliable. The same thing worked for a pony we had that behaved in the same way
I often think its been caused by severe abuse from a rider and the bolting is their natural fear/flight reaction kicking in
Good luck and keep the thread posted with your progress or whatever you decide to do. Remember - Riding is supposed to be FUN


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## liz48170 (May 14, 2012)

*So right*

All recommendations are so right

Laila is fine. Vet checked out just fine. Lunged for vet like pefect lady. Just 7 yrs old and SMART as all get out.



My trainer thought I should have gotten vet check up front instead of payin $1000 down payment for 2 week trial

(He did not know the contract - was whippin me)

Vet came today to do the entire barn and Laila. She acted like a perfect angle for him, lunged just fine, no leg draggin, no attitude, just was testing us, pushing our buttons, ridden by kids with one former "master", just tryin us

Deal done, I now pay the vet and the balance due on the purchase contract
(seriously, loved her from day one but wanted a 2 week trial so paid more)

Now, set up (bit, saddle), training of ME (duh).

Never have seen a horse drag is back left to the right actin lame for 20 minutes putting up a fit or rage before.

Have seen lazy horses, I have a super high strung Paso that will throw you if you don't ride her right

Never have seen a horse act so lame draggin' that leg like that before

Learn somethin new everyday

Now, more lessons, me horse trainer.

Not sure about anyone else, my 4th horse (hay I am pushin the big "50"). 

Every time I get a new horse, no matter how young, how old, how trained, how used....it takes me lots of time to "master" the horse.

They are just too darn smart.

See ya


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Laila*

Hope things are working out for you and the mare, sounds so odd, I would have sent her back myself and moved on. Why buy a problem like that? We don't bounce so well when we get into our 50's. You would soon get to love one that was more deserving of your time, cash and passion.
If things aren't any better I'd question that vets diagnosis because it sounds like maybe a stifle or patella problem that can come and go in the early stages. A slipping patella will cause leg dragging with the hoof turned upwards, they will go back in place especially if you back the horse up sharply
Did you get a Lymes test done?

good luck


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

Update Wally is now riding down the road and acting like a peferct (almost) gentalmen with my wife riding him. He still gets jacked up but no longer tries to bolt out and run. He will get jacked up with his head high and start prancing into a trot but with the right cues from my wife he will calm back down to a regular walk. 

So it looks like going back to the basics and building trust betweet the horse and ride is paying off.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Awesome! I'd still keep a good eye on him for a bit, just to make sure he really "gets" it that humans aren't going to hurt him.


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## JPD (May 9, 2012)

Oh yes. We need to get in many miles before we reach the 100% comfortable mark.


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## liz48170 (May 14, 2012)

Hi

Well, I did not find the problem until long after I purchased her

I think it may be a trained issue - she folds when I get into a certain back "button" on her

We are fighting over grass, won't move, I got into the back buttons both sides, she folds...


If this continues again I will have to find a nice home for her, perhaps a petting zoo as she is so good with kids, lets them hang all over her, jump on her back, whatever, she is laid back and loves kids and loves her head rubbed

Quite a sweet disposition and lovely gaits, why I bought her

Guess you really never know, for me it takes some time with a new horse to learn how to handle the horse, what it responds to, what is not effective, what is, and if anyone has "installed" buttons in the past or, if this is a bad habit

As for her soreness, she is fine now. Just had sore front tendon in left leg, most likely from trailer ride over (she was delivered) or hard riding the few days before I bought her (camping - 3 days)

Take Care


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