# Faults that rule out a purchase



## Labrador (Jul 31, 2013)

My question is pretty much exactly what the title says: If you are looking for a purchase, which conformation faults will automatically, no-ifs-or-buts-about-it, rule out a horse?

Similarly, are there any discipline-specific faults that would immediately stop you from considering a horse for a certain discipline?

I just want to know which faults you consider to be the "worst".

Thanks!


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I insist on an open throatlatch. No hammerheads. I would never purchase a horse whose hind legs were too straight, as in a halter bred QH.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I really dislike the feel of riding a super downhill horse.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

No hoof no horse.


----------



## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

I agree with Sarah, but I don't know enough to single anything out so whatever fault(s) my trainer and vet call a "no go".


----------



## ImaTuffBroker (Jan 17, 2016)

Crooked legs! Avoid that as it will cause more problems down the road and inhibited performance. Cow hocked, bucked kneed, calf kneed ext. Also avoid post legged horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

sarahfromsc said:


> No hoof no horse.


Yes. Bad feet and hard keepers/complex diets are no-gos for us.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Straight shoulders and upright pasterns. It's the first thing I look at after an overview of the whole horse. If the horse doesn't have generous angles they will never be comfortable to ride. 

I also second the hammerhead. I have ridden all the pig-eyed coarse-necked horses I am going to in this lifetime. They are fine for a lot of applications but not for me. 

Of course anything unsound or potentially unsound. 

And, just personally, anything over 15 hands is too dang tall.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Lonnnnng pasterns


----------



## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

In general I won't buy a horse with clubbed feet or if they're down in their pasterns. Paddling, especially crooked legs or too straight in the back end. All soundness factors. I also won't buy a horse that moves too big, they are too difficult to keep sound. A straight, downward sloping shoulder I will turn away because they'll never have the lift or suspension or ability to really rotate and lift the shoulders.

Looking for a dressage horse. Note my goal would be something with FEI potential.

I would not buy a horse with a poorly conformed neck. There are a lot of variations in neck but I consider a major fault a low set neck, a low set neck can be fine if it comes out high but if it comes out low the horse will never go up the levels because it won't be able to really sit or elevate and stay up and over its back. A very long neck can contort itself in many ways but it's a workable flaw.

A horse that moves out and flat is a no from me. If I'm looking for a dressage horse I look at a horse that moves more up and down than out and flat. A horse that collects is more important to me than one that can extend. I want a horse that sits with more activity and engagement and doesn't just get long in the stride. If I were hunting for a low level horse a lot of the times the out and flat horses do better but once you start climbing the levels and collection matters those types just don't do as well because they don't sit or collect well enough.

Gaits I look mostly at walk and canter. I look at rhythm and regularity and whether or not they are basically good gaits and if they can be improved. You can improve all the gaits but there are limits. I'd say the trot has the most versatility for improvement while the walk has the least. Canter can be improved. If a horse has a downhill canter but has 3 beats, lift in the shoulder and active jump behind you can make it a good canter. It will take some time but you can make a nice canter. You can't fix it if it completely on the forehand, minimal lift in the shoulders and minimal jump behind. So I would not look at a horse with a western style canter or poor walk (limited range of motion and lacks regularity).

Downhill can be a no go but for me it depends on how that horse uses its hocks and how that horse moves. If the horse is downhill, doesn't really use/engage it's hock and has poor neck conformation it simply wont be an upper level horse. You might get it to school upper level but it isn't fair to the horse to expect to try to collect. However if the horse uses it's hocks well and engages behind and can sit, downhill doesn't matter.

But the most important thing is how trainable and intelligent that horse is. I don't mind quirks, I don't mind if they're hot, sensitive, a little weird or have an opinion. I actually like them to have an opinion because that means they're thinkers and they're paying attention but I will turn down a horse that is dumb as a post. I HATE riding unintelligent horses. The worst is when they're dumb as a post, lazy, but nervous and jumpy. But dumb horses can be great amateur horses because they don't work out as many evasions but for me they're just too slow thinking and I don't enjoy the ride. I don't feel like you can accomplish as much, they learn slowly and just not my kind of ride. I also don't like crazy, you cannot reason with crazy and you cannot fix it. I've ridden a horse who was literally like trying to ride a cat. Smartest horse I've ever met and we had an incredible but it would never be successful.

And obviously gaited would be an automatic turn down. And a lot of it depends on a rider and their criteria and to what level/standard they want to compete. Rider's have preferences. I feel like we're all working with flaws, it just depends on what ones we're willing to work with and what ones we aren't and what are soundness factors.


----------



## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

I don't know a lick about conformation, so for me, it's about attitude. I don't want a horse that's mean. One that kicks, bites, etc. As long as he rides smooth, I don't care what he looks like too much.


----------



## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I'd walk away from bad (not poorly cared for, but actually bad) feet, post-legged in the back, dropped pasterns, and roached or sway backs.


----------



## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

I second pasterns!!!


----------



## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

I'd rule out right away anything that indicates unsoundness - buck knees/calf knees, weak pasterns, bad hooves, stuff like that.
Another complete no-go would be indicators for metabolic issues, like e.g. very obese, cresty neck, a coat that looks like Cushing's, or indicators that the horse is a very hard keeper.

After that, it very much depends on the use.
If I were looking for a reliable trail buddy, I could live with e.g. a neck that ties in low, a coarse head or a horse that's a bit bum-high, as long as the personality is right and the flaws don't impact soundness.
If I were looking for a dressage prospect, I'd be a lot more picky.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Of course all the usual faults but I will not buy a horse with an underbite or severe overbite.
Aesthetically I don't like high eyed horses or big heads in relation to the rest of their body.


----------



## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

I am (and was) pretty lax when looking for my girl. I knew I wanted a baby (or at least something young) since I'd spent my entire riding career fixing everyone else's mistakes. I went with my gut instinct on my mare based off of a couple of mediocre pictures and a couple of decent video. She struck me as something that could potentially excel in Dressage. Got her home and severely questioned myself. I had a horse with bad feet (badly taken care of; got them looking great aside from her having a high foot), severely downhill, long pasterns, and a hideous neck. Everyone thought I'd gone crazy. Then she grew into her pasterns. Her feet were cleaned up. Her neck (which a touch short) actually looks lovely in work. And she's just a touch downhill. But the most important thing to me at that point was temperament. I have two kids who love her. I have a husband who had never ridden outside of a guided trail ride who loves (and can!) ride her. When I told my trainer all of the things I was worried she would become, she point blank said "well, she's none of those things. I like this horse."

If I were looking at something older than an ugly yearling, I'd look for decent legs. Our next horse is going to be an all around family horse, so again I'd look at a soft, willing temperament that allows my kids to have a fabulous time on her and lets my husband gallop when we go for trail rides. Sure, decently set shoulders/neck/croup/etc is nice. But for a family horse, those just won't rank above the question of can my kids hop on and ride this horse all over the place at any gait without giving mommy a heart attack?


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A lot depends on what you want the horse for.

The happy hacker who only wants to plod around with the occasional canter can have a horse with all sorts of conformation faults with little problems ever showing from the straight shoulder, straight hind leg and upright pasterns. Whereas the rider who wants to compete will soon hit many problems.

For me there is not one specific fault, I want a horse that 'looks' right. First thing I notice is the eye/head, I want a good eye and head, not necessarily a pretty head but something that tells me the horse is a trier and honest.

Like Greentree, I dislike a horse that is thick through the jowl. I want a good length of neck, sloping shoulder. Good front leg with plenty of bone, 

As I was always following hounds I wanted a horse at would jump so, a good second thigh would clue me as to its ability. I also wanted plenty of chest room.

As for feet they are imperative. If the horse is shod then only of the shoes are removed can a farrier see if the walls of the foot are strong and not paper thin. 

I have bought many a horse for a client that had one fault or another but for their new owner that didn't matter.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

First and foremost is temperament. I have put up with many faults, but, like was said above, you can't fix crazy or mean. It's dangerous to fix flighty and there are so many horses out there for sale, why should I risk getting hurt? My other horses and other animals depend on ME to care for them, and I have to be there to do so.
I don't like post legs or weak pasterns and I'm tired of people breeding tiny feet for heavy horses!!!! It's like a fat lady with tiny, delicate shoes. You are afraid that the heels will break. A lot of farriers have learned to compliment these tiny feet because they have so many clients who own horses like this.
I like decent bone on the legs, short cannon bones and a strong back. My OTTB gelding had a weak back. I had bought him for my DH who was heavier than me. This horse would buck and rear and finally would just sit down because his back hurt. He also had visible bowing on his back cannon bones. Ask some of the OTTB owners if their horses have this from racing TB's so young.
My QH, "Ro Go Bar", (1982-1009, RIP) had a Roman nose identical to a European WB. I Never believed that it was a fault. I've come to appreciate a clean throatlatch, too. 
Also, look for clean legs. Beat up legs are an indication of past injuries. If the horse moves sound, those injuries show up with arthritis later on.
Newbies usually start at the head. The rest of us start at the feet. No foot, no horse is so true. Horses only lay down for maybe 15 minutes, maybe one hour of their day, and ONLY if they have a comfortable place to lay. Otherwise they spend the rest of the 23 hours standing. Bad hooves cannot hold up. That's why they are so important.
I like a good set of withers, but I won't pass on mutton withers if the horse is otherwise a good specimen.
When I first had a subscription to "Practical Horseman" I couldn't tell ANY difference between the three horses in the monthly conformation clinic. After really looking and studying the critiques I started to SEE the differences.
Form for function. You need to learn what to look for for performance. But, even if you trail ride at the walk, why not buy the best built horse you can find?


----------



## nicoles (Apr 15, 2013)

I ride TWH's. long distance trails rides and non-competitive endurance is what I'm into.

My non-negotiables: I need good temperament, good legs, good feet, and the ability to handle winter weather outside (mine are both range bred). Pacing is a huge no for me. I bought my Walkers as babies and actually looked for a nice natural trot, as well (trotting babies tend to pace less as adults, IME).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Larissa (Jan 25, 2014)

I will be picky, because fighting conformation just isn't worth it when you want to compete. It is hard enough and time consuming enough on a well built horse, and it's just frustrating with conformationally challenged horses. You'll put in twice the time, and get half the results, and possible a unsound horse. So for me.

Head
NO pig eyed, jug headed, large heads in proportion to body and neck, ugly eyes, too high eyes, under or over bites, parrot mouth, loose lipped, or rough cut faces that lack detail. - My ideal would be a soft face with definition, soft eyes that are well and correctly placed, proportionate head size to neck and body, proportionate ears with some shape, I enjoy high placed double whorled horses, even though some think they're nuts, I find them highly intelligent when you reach that understanding of how to engage their mind in a good way. 

Neck
No low set necks, overly short or long necks, poor placement, etc. I want a well shaped and connected neck, and a clean open throat latch.

Body
No upright and downward sloped shoulders, no overly laid back shoulders (extremely), I want a nice sloped shoulder that matches the hip angle, uphill is acceptable, downhill is undesirable but I will look at the horse more to decide along with how downhill it is, nothing too thickly built as I am 4'11" and don't have much leg length at all, I want a nice smooth straight back, NO roach backs, etc.

Legs
No knock kneed, calf kneed, over at the knee, under at the knee, crooked kneed, horses period. I want a nice flat knee, clean legs, nothing too straight, no paddling, nothing that stands super under its self, camped under or out. Legs need to have good angles.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

You know, one of the best horses I know would be considered a conformational train wreck. Buck knees, sickle hocks, long back, upright shoulder. She's got a pretty head (something her grandsire stamped on all his get) and is built like a tank, but other than that, she'd fail most of your guys' qualifications. Interestingly, she's held up to barrels and gaming, with some trail riding thrown in, for years with absolutely ZERO soundness issues, even with less-than-stellar hoof care. The only thing I, personally, wish was better about her is her trot. It's like riding a jack hammer, especially after being used to Aires' smooth-as-glass trot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CrossCountry (May 18, 2013)

Roach back. Sharkfin wither.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Anything with small legs- very little bone. If it is a big horse, its legs should be big! I don't like big horses on toothpicks for legs.

If it requires shoes- I don't want it. 

If it has contracted feet or clubbed feet- I don't want it.

Over at the knee- I don't want it.

Downhill conformation- probably not, but may consider if it rides well.


----------



## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Pasterns.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Long pasterns, sway back, not enough bone to the legs. 

Severely behind at the knee, or any other severe leg crookedness. 

Like another poster I'd want a horse that is pleasing all over, despite faults.

Honestly my own horse has many faults, but I overlook them and work with him regardless.


----------



## Redcitylights (Mar 21, 2015)

The legs and hoofs should be flawless. No bumps, swelling, ect.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Those who answered regarding throatlatches... what is the significance of wanting a clean throatlatch?


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

if its to small or lumpy looking it can actually affect the amount of air gets down the windpipe.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

KigerQueen said:


> if its to small or lumpy looking it can actually affect the amount of air gets down the windpipe.


The throatlatch? 
So does a horse having a larger head and having issues getting a normal sized bridle to close on their throat not count then? Both our geldings have this issue. One is a 15ish hh BLM mustang, the other a 15.3 grade appy. Both use larger sized normal bridles and it is a struggle to get those things on their fat heads and thick throats. But they have very clean throatlatches, lump wise. 

I thought that was what might have been meant, and wondered.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Since this page won't paste, I will copy how individual parts of a horse are scored, as to major and minor faults, from a program, used to evaluate future athletic ability and soundness, based on 'form to function:

Horses are scored in each of five categories:
Front limbs
Hind limbs
Head, neck, body and balance
Athletic movement, and
Type.
In using the system, a standard of 20 points in each category is used.
Scores of 18, 19 or 20 are considered excellent and reflect correctness or excellence. These scores tell the breeder he is approaching the ideal.
Scores of 15, 16 or 17 are considered good and reflect that little is wrong but there is considerable room for improvement.
Scores of 12, 13 or 14 are considered fair and reflect the faults that at present do not greatly affect usefulness but will greatly reduce value.
Scores of 9, 10 or 11 are considered poor and reflect serious faults that affect the horse's usefulness, soundness and marketability.
This allows evaluators to give credit where credit is due and be critical when warranted. For example, if a horse has exceptional type, but offset knees, the horse may be scored 19 or 20 for type and 9 or 10 for front limbs. If a horse scores less than 10 in any category, the scores are not totalled and the horse is not classified.
Front Limbs (20 points)

Evaluators appraise the front feet, front legs, knees and shoulder from the front and side at the walk, trot and standing.

Horses score 18, 19 or 20 for moving and standing particularly straight, for having exceptional bone, short cannon bones, long forearm, long sloping shoulder, etc.
Horses score 15, 16 or 17 for minor conformation faults which do not normally lead to unsoundness.
Horses would score 12, 13 or 14 where faults exist that may not greatly affect soundness but may limit performance.
Horses would score 9, 10 or 11 for major conformation faults which affect soundness and performance (evaluator's opinion).
.
Minor Faults Major Faults
toe in or out contracted heels
winging or paddling excessively upright pastern
upright pastern excessively fine bone
straight shoulder calf knees
base narrow offset knees
base wide excessively tied-in behind
small feet base narrow, toe out
slightly calf kneed excessively small feet
slightly offset knees club foot


Hind Limbs (20 points)
Evaluators appraise the hind feet, hind legs, hocks, gaskin and hip from the side and back at the walk, trot and standing.

Horses may score 18, 19 or 20 for moving or standing particularly straight or for having exceptional bone, muscle or form to function.
Horses score 15, 16 or 17 for minor conformation faults which would not normally lead to unsoundness or limit performance.
Horses score 12, 13 or 14 for conformation faults that may not affect soundness but may limit performance.
Horses score 9, 10 or 11 for major conformation faults that affect soundness and performance (evaluator's opinion).
.
Minor Faults Major Faults
slightly ****-footed ****-footed
camped behind sickle-hocked
cow hocks post-legged
bandy-legged cow hocks
slightly sickle-hocked 
slightly post-legged 
lack of muscle 
toe out or in 
rope walking 
small feet

Head, Neck, Body and Balance (20 points)
Evaluators appraise head, neck, body and balance during movement and while standing. Balance is relative to body proportions.

Horses score 18, 19 or 20 for exceptional characteristics and balance.
Horses score 15, 16 or 17 for minor conformation faults or unsightliness (e.g. long head, roman nose, pig eyes, ewe neck, thick throatlatch, cresty, thick neck, short neck, improper angulation, long back, shallow girth, goose rump, high tail-set).
Horses score 12, 13 or 14 when conformation faults become more exaggerated thus limiting performance.
Horses score 9, 10 or 11 if, in the opinion of the evaluators, the horse has a combination of faults that would make the horse potentially unusable, being excessively out of proportion, downhill or over-reaching.

Athletic Movement (20 points)
Evaluators will appraise athletic movement at the trot. Athletic movement will be assessed using four components; length of stride, rhythm, lightness, and impulsion. Length of stride is the distance the horse moves while one foot (any foot) is off the ground. Rhythm refers to how well the movement of each foot is in balance and in time with each other foot. Lightness is a coordination of stride and rhythm so that movement appears to take minimum effort. Impulsion is the use of the hind quarters to provide momentum to the movement.

Horses scoring 18, 19, 20 would be noted as having a long stride with excellent rhythm, lightness, and impulsion.
Horses scoring 15, 16, 17 maybe slightly deficient in one or two categories but overall movement is good.
Horses scoring 12, 13, 14 would have at least one undesirable movement trait or be somewhat deficient in all categories.
Horses scoring 9, 10, 11 would have an excessively short, choppy stride lacking rhythm, be heavy movers with no impulsion.


----------



## ARTEMISBLOSSOM (Apr 3, 2011)

what exactly does a hammer headed horse with a poor throatlatch look like? Is it a roman nosed horse? I tried googling it and all the images looked like normal horses to me. I am curious because I bought a roman nosed horse last fall and although I find it looks a little unattractive I didn't think it could be a conformational fault or affect his ability to perform. Here is a picture of him. Is he hammer headed? I bought him from an auction last fall, just me and the kill buyer bidding. He seems to be a very sweet horse.


----------



## WestCoasted (Jan 19, 2016)

Personally, I like a roman nose. It reminds me of shires and cleveland bays. Both very distinguished looking horses.

As for deal breakers in conformation, I second what those before me have said. 

For me, it's all about the feet. I like to see a nice big, healthy frog. I expect a level sole, with good balance and symmetry. I want hoof walls to be solid with minimal dryness and cracking. 

Obviously, it all varies horse by horse. In general, I follow the saying, "no hoof, no horse."


----------

