# Managing the Proud Cut horse.



## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

This is on the long side by I've always been told when it comes to horses detail matters. 

A year and a half ago I was "gifted" a 9 month old Paint/Mustang colt named Rebel. Rebel was the result of an idiot family friend letting her Paint stallion lose with her mares, thinking she could time their heats. Yeah...11 months later Rebel was born along with quite a few siblings. And they still don't geld that **** stud. 

Rebel was 9 months old when I met him. I felt bad for the little guy. I didn't exactly need another horse, but we clicked, and I arranged to take him since his previous owners couldn't afford the foals. I had already trained a yearling Quarab into a very well-mannered 4 year old. And with my own geldign pushing 33 I decided to take him on. 

I called my vet and we did the vet check, got coggins, and everything. And I arranged to have him gelded after he arrived at my place. Only for his old owners to "do me a favor" and have a farrier geld Rebel.

I figured no harm done, and brought Rebel home. We started training (he didn't know how to lead, tie, anything) and about 3 months after being here, he became a mess. He mounts my mares, and my two other geldings. I can't keep him pastured with my older gelding because Rebel seizes him by the back of the neck. 

Finally I called my vet, and while talking to him, Rebel mounted and bred one of my mares, my vet was somewhat amazed having never encountered a true proud cut horse except when a testicle wasn't dropped. He was blood tested and found to have high hormone levels. Since my vet saw both testicles before I got him, we know its probably a bit of remaining tissue. 

So now I've got myself a proud cut colt and I'm really at a loss as to what to do with him. 

I can't turn him out with my geldings because he attacks them, and he is always after my mares to the point he's had to be stitched up twice for trying to breed when they weren't in heat. So he has a pen beside the others but can't reach them. 

Training is a nightmare. Even my trainer says he has no focus no matter what we try. 

Does anyone have any experience with proud cut colts and training them?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Rain Shadow said:


> This is on the long side by I've always been told when it comes to horses detail matters.
> 
> A year and a half ago I was "gifted" a 9 month old Paint/Mustang colt named Rebel. Rebel was the result of an idiot family friend letting her Paint stallion lose with her mares, thinking she could time their heats. Yeah...11 months later Rebel was born along with quite a few siblings. And they still don't geld that **** stud.
> 
> ...


Have the vet go back in and finish the job. He's going to remain a nightmare until you do.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Is proud cut just another word for criptochrid?


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree with the above, get him regelded. It sounds like the farrier either banded him and "missed one" or left a section of cord. It is surprising how many people can castrate an animal and miss an entire testicle. I would lute the mare he bred because who knows how much tissue he has left. He could be able to get the job done and really do you want find out in 11 months?

If you decide to manage him or until you get him gelded (again) I would manage him like a stallion. He is acting like a young, ill mannered stallion and should be treated as such. I would not turn him out with the mares again or geldings. He would live a life of isolation because he is a hazard to himself and others. He is a stallion with stallion hormones. The problem is that he is an aggressive and dangerous stallion. So, if he starts redirecting onto you its going to be very serious.


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

How evasive is regelding? And what cost am I looking at?

We know he had two testicles because I did do a pre-purchase on him and he had two then so it must be a bit of cord. 

He can't produce any foals. My vet checked and said he has no sperm, so that is a relief. Plus he hasn't been in with my mares in over a year. He's nearing his third birthday. 

Until I can get up the funds for a regelding how do I manage him? He is really dangerous IMO. He will just trample you to get at the mares. I've never worked with studs before so I'm at a loss.


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

I agree with the above get him re-gelded. In the mean time treat him like a stallion. My QH is crypt and I would not wish this situation on anyone, he does the same thing your guy is doing mounts mares, chases geldings and is very aggressive towards other horses. He used to be aggressive towards me but I put an end to that, with lots of work on consistency.

I talked my vet into doing the surgery but without scoping first and he found nothing, after 8 weeks of recovery and hundreds of dollars later he was still raging with testosterone. I have learned to manage him, train him and compete on him, he still has to be pastured by himself but when he is under my control is an upstanding member of equine society.

The biggest thing is you cannot let him get away with any aggressive behavior towards you, when your present your alpha. When you tell him to do something he needs to do it. I used to have to carry a training stick everywhere I went, and if he got out of line he got put to work. I also found that backing him up everywhere we went was very useful, he learned to stay out of my space, and it taught him respect. And make sure he gets lots of exercise and turn out, don't let him build up excessive energy. 

Look into the surgery and find out what it will cost and about the procedure, in the long run it will be the safest thing to do.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I had gelding that wasn't this bad but was getting more aggravating. Tests were done and he was producing too much testosterone, so I had the surgery done.

The vet said the cord had grown out past the inguinal ring.

Cost 800 or so to have it done, but stopped his foolishness.

But if he is like this, you need to beg, borrow or steal the money, or you will be paying far more in vet bills.


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## skiafoxmorgan (Mar 5, 2014)

Deschutes said:


> Is proud cut just another word for criptochrid?


No. Proud cut is a bungled gelding--hormone producing tissue left behind. Cryptorchid is a stud with one descended testicle. I had a crypt colt once. I had to have the vet go in and geld him surgically at the office, since it involved opening him up to get the second testicle. Of course, the colt then contracted strangles--likely from contaminated ground at the vet's office paddock. :?

anyway...good luck. I second the advice to have a vet just finish the job. what a mess.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

It will cost around $1000.00 to try to surgically repair the wreck. There is no guarantee that it will be repaired, either. 

The other thing you could try would be to have a breeding center 'collect' him or have a Vet insert a tiny endoscope through a tiny hole and 'see' what is just above the inguinal ring. The bad castration job could be that the small, slippery little testicle could have slipped back out of the guy's hand and he still has one in there with part of the cord missing. We castrate our own and the little yearling testicles are the tiniest, slippery little ones to hang on to. 

or 

I can tell you what I would do. I would haul his worthless little butt to the nearest sale and forget the whole mess. I'm sorry, but he would be an 'unwanted horse' at my house.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Cherie is spot on. Too many good horses need help to toss money after a bad one.


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

Selling him isn't an option. I'm sure he'd go to a kill buyer. And I'm not going to sentence a horse I've had for 2 years to death. 

He's not in work right now. I don't break horses in until 4 and in most cases until 5 so he's only on turnout and he is worked in the round pen twice a week.

I'd have to find a vet to do it. My vet is a traveling vet. He doesn't have an actual practice. 

I'm willing to try the surgery. 

Here is the little ****** just so you can see why I wouldn't get rid of him. He isn't a horrible horse if he's away from mares. He spent a week at a friends house with no mares in the area and was so much better. Before the hormones kicked in he was the most amazing little colt.


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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

Rain Shadow said:


> Selling him isn't an option. I'm sure he'd go to a kill buyer. And I'm not going to sentence a horse I've had for 2 years to death.
> 
> He's not in work right now. I don't break horses in until 4 and in most cases until 5 so he's only on turnout and he is worked in the round pen twice a week.
> 
> ...



I just saw you are in Florida. What part? I am in down SE of lake Okeechobee. 

If your near Ocala I heard that the University has a vet program and someone told me they are able to do the surgery there. Like I said I talked my vet into doing the surgery right at his facility completely non-sterile, upside down balanced with bags of shavings in a stall that we laid tarps and blankets in. I was kind of desperate though, then when he found nothing I was devastated. After 8 weeks of recovery I decided I had to train him or shoot him, I trained him and he is not a great horse, testosterone and all. 

If you decide to keep him consistency is the key, he needs more then two days a week of work, his brain and his body need to be kept working and thinking about what you want. A tired horse is a good horse.

I understand what your going through. I would not be so quick to think he would end up in a kill pen if you tried to sell him, as long as you sold him and were up front about his condition. It's just a matter of being selective and finding the right person. I am very protective of my horse and have no plans to ever sell him for the very reason that he is the way he is, but if I ever had to sell him I would be very up front and anyone who blew me off, or was inexperienced with stallions would hit the road without my horse.


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

First, I am amazed anyone in their right minds would let a farrier geld an animal. If you are going in for surgery, would you let a dentist do it?! 

As what others have said, be firm and consistent and show him that you won't be letting him get away with any shenanigans at all. Can you leave him at your friends house where you said there are no mares until you can get the surgery done? Have you spoken to your vet to ensure they will do the surgery and how much? What does it entail? What is the recovery time?


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think that there is nothing wrong with admitting that you are in over your head. That said, I think this horse sounds dangerous in the wrong hands. If I was in your position, I would have trouble sending him to auction. Not because he might end up slaughter but because he might end up in some nice little ladies house and hurt them. If you can't handle him and can't afford the surgery I would consider euthanasia over a sale (unless the perfect home could be found with full disclosure). 

That said, I would look into the corrective surgery. It may be expensive. It really depends on how poor a job the farrier did. I have seen some calves where an entire testicle was missed but outside the inguinal ring. It made it easier to find, a pain to retrieve and remove, but can be done on the farm. Anything outside of that type of situation, I would have a vet school do it. In his case, you may get a discount as a "teaching case".


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## Customcanines (Jun 17, 2012)

My first horse was a ridgeling, and unbroken on top of it. I was 11. Through the grace of God and a lot of luck, I managed to train him, and he excelled as a show jumper. HOWEVER, he was always difficult, especially on the ground. He had to be kept away from mares or he'd go ballistic. He'd rear, lunge and do anything he could to get away. Because I was so small, i always had to use a stud chain, and always felt safer on his back than leading him. He once jumped out of a barn stall over the half door at a training stable to get to a mare. He taught me how to ride and handle just about any horse, but I could have just as easily been killed. My trainer, who showed many stallions, thought for some reason he was more "studdy" than a true stallion.


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