# Is It Leagal To Post Someones Horse For Critique?



## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

good point! i never thougfht of that!


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

^^ brought this up a few times. people kind of seem like they dont give a crap. You could come into some LEGAL trouble. Its no different then stealing music. You are stealing something the seller owns- the picture. I have no problems with people posting a link to a sales ad.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

If I post a horse for a critique it's either photos I have taken myself (therefore my copyright) or photos/video that are available publicly. 

And yes, it WOULD be different than taking photos I post of my horse and posting them for critique. 

When I post needing critique and comments on a potential purchase, I am seeking the opinion of other people who are familiar with horses. Just like I would ask a vet to look at the horse, my farrier and perhaps a trainer and a few friends from my barn. I want other objectionable opinions. 

You wouldn't take my horse to a vet, your farrier or a trainer and ask them what they thought unless you had a reason to do so, like a potential purchase. 

No different than posting about a car and finding out about different reviews or posting a potential house purchase.

If I am to sell my horse and put photos, video and information in public domain I should be, by all means, prepared to take whatever criticism or comments come about.

It's the same as posting ANY photo, video or information. Horse related or not in public domain. People are free to state their opinion about said things.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

it IS not the same as posting any photo. If you've been on youtube or facebook to post something you have to check off that you have the right to these photos, its no different anywere else. These sites are just good at covering their butts.

The link and add itself is public access, but saving that photo to your computer and then reposting it somewere else is stealing it.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> ^^ brought this up a few times. people kind of seem like they dont give a crap. You could come into some LEGAL trouble. Its no different then stealing music. You are stealing something the seller owns- the picture. I have no problems with people posting a link to a sales ad.



As a photographer, I have to say that you are incorrect. It is nothing like stealing music. However, if you were to take that posted photo, have it printed and hung upon your wall. THAT is stealing. If you are to take that photo, say it was yours and try to profit from it, THAT is stealing.

Because the photos of the horses have NO COMMERCIAL VALUE, the copyright argument is basically null. 

Taking a picture and asking another person's opinion is not stealing. No different from emailing your best horse-friend information and the photos of the horse and asking for his/her opinion. 

The reason this is so is due to fair use. Fair use policy states that you are able to reproduce the work (in this case a photo of a horse) for commentary, education, parody, etc. This varies country by country of course.


I am a photographer and newspaper reporter. So you can bet that I am fully aware of how copyright laws work and what I can and cannot use in writing a story (especially if it's an article that is criticizing something else) and how copyright laws work with images.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> it IS not the same as posting any photo. If you've been on youtube or facebook to post something you have to check off that you have the right to these photos, its no different anywere else. These sites are just good at covering their butts.
> 
> The link and add itself is public access, but saving that photo to your computer and then reposting it somewere else is stealing it.


Very rarely do I see a post that has uploaded photos that somebody else took. Nonetheless, the argument would not hold up in court as the photos have no commercial value.

Most posters post the link to the ad page, YouTube video or the like.

I have to add: If the photo that somebody else took was done professionally, there could possibly be a commercial value argument. Many people selling high-dollar horses will pay a professional photographer to take the photos. THAT is something to be aware of.

The same as if somebody were to use a photo that I took on here. I file all my photos through Creative Commons Copyright laws. Because I do it professionally, I could argue that my photos hold commercial value. Most of my non-commissioned photos are copyrighted so that sharing is not a problem, but altering the work is.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

No it is not acceptable. We do have a forum rule against it:
*8- Please do not post pictures to be critiqued of anyone other then yourself.
*If a member chooses to post a picture to be critiqued, the member is required to only post pictures of themselves and of no other person. Forum members can however, post pictures of other horses. This rule only applies in the critique section. Members are free to post appropriate pictures as they please when necessary in any other section. 


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I apologize that we have been lax in enforcing this rule. We will attempt to be more vigilant in the future.


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

If I post links to ads, videos, pics, etc that a seller has posted on the internet for the purpose of selling their horse, its fair game. It really isn't any different than discussing any other product on the market. We discuss saddles, trucks, and all sorts of different horse products. We may not see it this way, but in the eyes of the law, a horse is a posession, just like these other objects. If a seller doesn't want their horse being discussed in such a way, then they shouldn't post information, pictures or video on any public internet site.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

as a photographer myself... i think it doesnt matter if it has value. its the same thing as digital artwork. you cant post my artwork on your site without my permission.

it is acceptable to include a link. im on the fence about emails. it was written to be used only by your eyes and not shared with the world.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

Vidaloco said:


> No it is not acceptable. We do have a forum rule against it:
> *8- Please do not post pictures to be critiqued of anyone other then yourself.
> *If a member chooses to post a picture to be critiqued, the member is required to only post pictures of themselves and of no other person. Forum members can however, post pictures of other horses. This rule only applies in the critique section. Members are free to post appropriate pictures as they please when necessary in any other section.
> 
> ...




I didn't think that the original poster was asking if photos of other PEOPLE could be posted, simply other horses. Please, correct me if I am wrong?


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> as a photographer myself... i think it doesnt matter if it has value. its the same thing as digital artwork. you cant post my artwork on your site without my permission.


In the eyes of the law (US) it does matter if it has value. However, the digital artwork would have value as an artist has constructed it. ETA: I'm not saying it doesn't hold copyright if it has value. I'm saying the copyright law wouldn't hold up in court if it doesn't have value. 

Also - your artwork could be reproduced if used in a parody, research, education, commentary, etc. 

Here's information from Wikipedia about Fair Use. Although this isn't all-encompassing, it will shed some light on this argument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use


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## Patches457 (Dec 3, 2009)

I am not terribly worried about the Legal aspect of it more the Unethical. I don't think you can get into Legal trouble from posting a picture, you can get a very un-happy photo owner but nothing that would hold in Court. 

Its the principal. These are not your horses to ask for a critique on. The critique is something that could potentially hurt the owners sale. All anyone has to do is search the horses name and it may come up. I have seen multiple threads here saying "Of These Four Horses Which One Should I Go See" If no-one on this forum likes horse number 3 that could A. Hurt the Sale. B. Anger the Owner. And C. When a New Member joins showing us her new horse and its "Horse Number 3" that no-one liked, It would be pretty sad to look back and see two pages of why this other poster shouldn't buy horse number 3. 

I don't know there are just lots of reasons why NOT to ask for a critique on someone elses horse IMO and to Critique a for sale ad seems even more so wrong.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

^^ I am reading that over



> Forum members can however, post pictures of other horses.


dosent that mean the forum allows people to post other horses? It dosent say anything about who took the photo though.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

As in all things on the net, if its not copyrighted then yes it is fair game. 
I did misspeak on the rules. Its not critiquing the horse but the rider that is taboo if it is not the poster.

ETA I think if it was illegal then there are fugly horse blogs out there that would be in court and off the net. I understand your concerns though. I would hate to stumble on a photo of one of my horses being critiqued and being claimed as someone else's.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

I dont think people are intending to hurt anyone, they just want an honest opinion. I have nothing against people posting a link and asking for opinions. It not much different then my trainer looking at the add.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

Vidaloco said:


> As in all things on the net, if its not copyrighted then yes it is fair game.
> I did misspeak on the rules. Its not critiquing the horse but the rider that is taboo if it is not the poster.



OH! PLEASE DON'T SAY THIS!! This is completely incorrect.* As with ALL things on the internet IT IS COPYRIGHTED.* No copyright notice is needed any longer for something to be copyrighted. However, as far as this section of the forum is concerned, because it is being reproduced for commentary, it falls under the Fair Use section of the Copyright Act.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

Vidaloco said:


> ETA I think if it was illegal then there are fugly horse blogs out there that would be in court and off the net. I understand your concerns though. I would hate to stumble on a photo of one of my horses being critiqued and being claimed as someone else's.


Once again, it IS illegal if it is posted without commentary. This forum and the fugly horse blogs reproduce with commentary. Once again, falling under Fair Use. The fugly horse blogs must take down images if the copyright holder asks them to. However, the information written about can stay there.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Maybe I had better just shut up and go away :lol: I know I will at least start checking for commentary when I copy an image 
Any thought on whether we should change the rules here to reflect that and make it critiques of the posters horses only?


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

^^ok. the OP let just know she dosent care about the legal aspects.

I would be a little upset if someone was saying things about my horse, based on confirmation alone. But most ok the time people dont have ill intent.


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

I don't understand how this is any different than debating the merits of anything else on the internet. People debate and give their opinions on news articles, products, art work, books and anything else that's out there. Should an author get upset because people in a forum are saying good/bad things about their book? Could it hurt book sales? Of course! There is nothing wrong with objectively giving an opinion on a horse that a seller has advertised with the express purpose of providing that information and pictures to the public. I have never seen a critique thread on here that is slanderous or bashes any horse for sale. People give honest opinions and its an invaluble way to discuss the pros and cons before a purchase.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

^^ i think i saw a post or two where people had found a really downhill horse (for sale add), saying how they were upset people were breeding this way and such. Its a valid argument but they didnt have the best intention relating to the critique of the horse.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

Vidaloco said:


> Maybe I had better just shut up and go away :lol: I know I will at least start checking for commentary when I copy an image
> Any thought on whether we should change the rules here to reflect that and make it critiques of the posters horses only?



I think the rules are fine as they stand. I also think that this forum provides a very good tool for those who are interested in learning about conformation and the like and being able to see photos demonstrating different conformation. 


You can copy an image and re-post it if you're providing commentary about it. You can't post it with no information because then the public will assume it is your copyright. 

You can even post a professional image for critique here as long as the poster notifies the reader that the copyright belongs to so-and-so. 

The long and short of it is that there is nothing illegal about posting images/videos/information for critique. That falls under the commentary section of Fair Use.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

^^ could be true but i think the forum should consult with a lawyer about it if possible.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I guess it comes down to an ethical issue as the OP stated. The possibility of someone copying photos of horses that aren't there own, then asking for a critique. If a horse is for sale then the owner has placed the horse on the free market and should expect such actions. On the other side, someone lying and claiming a horse is theirs when in fact it is not is another can of worms.


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## Patches457 (Dec 3, 2009)

Lovemyperch I think Yes And No. In on aspect If you list your horse for sale or put any material online, its going to be seen and people can think what they like, feel how they please about it. 
I do not however liken A author and a book to a private horse owner selling there animal/pet. A book, A movie, A play they are someones occupation, they are going to be written about, win awards or fall on there faces. 
This is just the simple matter of taking someones pet that you might be interested in and asking a forum to tear it apart before you drive to see it. In addition I have seen people on this forum post the conversations they've had with the owners IE "Here Is What I Asked" ... "And The Response" As well as photos the owner privately sent to the person inquiring. 

I am just saying, As a horse owner and seller, I would not be happy to join a forum and see a three page discussion on my horse, my reply about my horse and see pictures I did not post online myself. I know not many reply with the intent of hurting anyones feelings, and the poster is just asking for an honest opinion before spending a larger sum of money, however people can reply as they like. From how the owner of the horse has the halter adjusted to the bloodlines of the animal to the facility in the background. Comments get thrown out. I know you must have seen by now anyone asking for a critique on there HORSE on this or other forums, is often told "Why Do You Ride In A Hackmore?" or "That Halter IS About To Fall Off The Horses Face" or "You Should Wear Heeled BOOTS Not Flip Flops!" and the point was they asked about the horse, not there own foot wear and riding apparel. So the same can happen when posting someone elses horse.

Its not like a book =-)


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

Vidaloco said:


> I guess it comes down to an ethical issue as the OP stated. The possibility of someone copying photos of horses that aren't there own, then asking for a critique. If a horse is for sale then the owner has placed the horse on the free market and should expect such actions. On the other side, someone lying and claiming a horse is theirs when in fact it is not is another can of worms.


If somebody was lying and claiming a horse as their own wouldn't really affect the forum in a legal standpoint. However, because it's the internet, you have to assume that a poster may or may not be who they say they are, including what they own/where they live/etc.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

sillybunny11486 said:


> ^^ could be true but i think the forum should consult with a lawyer about it if possible.



No need to consult a lawyer. All of this information can be accessed at U.S. Copyright Office Once again, this applies only the the US, however most other countries are similar.


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## luvmyperch (Oct 5, 2009)

Patches457 said:


> Lovemyperch I think Yes And No. In on aspect If you list your horse for sale or put any material online, its going to be seen and people can think what they like, feel how they please about it.
> I do not however liken A author and a book to a private horse owner selling there animal/pet. A book, A movie, A play they are someones occupation, they are going to be written about, win awards or fall on there faces.
> This is just the simple matter of taking someones pet that you might be interested in and asking a forum to tear it apart before you drive to see it. In addition I have seen people on this forum post the conversations they've had with the owners IE "Here Is What I Asked" ... "And The Response" As well as photos the owner privately sent to the person inquiring.
> 
> ...


 
To private owners, it's not like a book. Horses are like our kids. We love them like our own family. However, in legal aspects, horses are NOT any different than any other possession that we could sell. Once you post a horse for sale in the open market, you now transition from "owner" to "seller". If you don't want the public assessing and critiquing what you are selling, then you shouldn't put the information out there for everyone to see. I'm not talking about anyone who posts ads, pictures, or information for the purpose of bashing. However, there is no expectation of privacy between a buyer and seller, or between a seller and the general public when viewing their ads. In a Buyer Beware market, prospective buyers should be able to use the information provided to them to seek all opinions before making a decision.


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## Jake and Dai (Aug 15, 2008)

I, for one, would not like it if I were not able to ask for opinions on potential purchases on this forum. None of my friends know a darn thing about horses except that they eat hay and love carrots! And I tend to think with my heart and not my head when horse shopping so I would appreciate a place to ask for thoughtful, honest and educated opinions of the horses I consider buying. 

And maybe it is because I'm an advid forum reader, but if I ever posted a horse for sale on one of the many horse sites or even Craigslist...I would totally expect that link and/or pictures would be posted on forums for opinions. 

And if I ever ran across some snarky or mean comments about my animals, of course I'd be slightly upset but then I'd consider the sources. Just meaning that folks who make those snarky or mean comments rather than offering that thoughtful, honest opinion are not really worth my energy to be upset about.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

One reason I never ask for critiques, I love my girls like a part of the family. Saying something bad about one of them would hurt my feelings terribly. I put Vida up once a year or so ago and I swore I'd never do it again. I'm one of those people who have thin skin when it comes to something or someone I love. I feel obliged to defend them


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## Jake and Dai (Aug 15, 2008)

Oh...I'm right there with you Vidaloco! I'd never put either of my grade ponies up for critique as even though I know little about conformation, I suspect they wouldn't get very good comments on theirs. 

But if I were ever to sell them, which I don't ever plan to do and hope I never have to, I'd would have to have hardened my heart just to be able to put them up for sale.

I was really just thinking for any future purchases...like if I were to ever get a third horse! LOL


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## Cheshire (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm with Jake and Dai that it would be a shame if we could no longer ask for opinions on potential purchases here. For those of us who tend to "think with our hearts" or don't know a gazillion volumes about conformation (I've been training myself with the help of others but I still for the life of me can rarely identify a straight shoulder when I see it), it's nice to be able to come here and get informed opinions before we fork out the cash. 

IMO, if a seller puts a pic of their horse for sale on Craigslist or wherever, I would hope they would be willing to take harsh opinions on their animal, if that were the case. Sure it might hurt their ego a bit...but seriously. We're (mostly) all adults here. Surely they can take a little crit for an animal they're just going to sell anyway.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Vidaloco said:


> Maybe I had better just shut up and go away :lol: I know I will at least start checking for commentary when I copy an image
> Any thought on whether we should change the rules here to reflect that and make it critiques of the posters horses only?


 
We must be careful how the fair usage policy is used.

Just because it is on the net does NOT entitle someone to come along and use it for their own purposes. 

I belong to a social network called Yuku that encompasses well over 1,000 different forums and their legal dept does not allow the posting of picture (copyright notified or not). All pictures AND TEXT taken from other forum without the permission of the OP is removed when ask.

One of the main proiblems with posting a picture is that the creator will not get cretit so a safer mode would be to post a link. This will give the owner of that picture the opportunity to remove the picture at the source if they choose to.

Another thing is stallions. I and I alone will put my horse up for critique and I will NEVER give permission for any likeness of him to be posted WITHOUT my permission and I don't care if you wanted to or not to breed to him. I usually pay good money to be allowed to have those pictures on the net and the person I paid gave me and me alone that permission to put the pictures up.

There is a policy on HGS I believe that states that a link if you are interested in the horse or your horse alone (or permission from the owner) is all that is allowed and THAT is the rule that should apply.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I haven't read through all of the responses yet so forgive me if I'm repetitive. As far as unethical, I don't think it is at all. If you are posting pictures of a purspective purchase, you have the right to be able to ask for other peoples opinions on it. Do you think it's wrong if I post a picture of a saddle I may like to ask people more knowledgable than me if it's worth the money? Horses are the same thing. Only differance is people take critiques of their horse personally where they may not do so of an inanimate object however the reasoning for posting is the same. In most cases there is no malice behind posting the pictures instead most people are looking for informed opinions. 

However, personally I think if you post something on the internet, it is fair game. People can not hire you because you have a half naked picture of you with a beer pong -- In this day and age you need to be careful what you are putting on the internet because as soon as it's there, it's there. 
As far as emails, if you are just giving the information about the possible horse...I also see no problem. 
If you're saying "God this woman is an idiot, look how long her horses feet are!" to me thats the same as talking behind someone back in real life. It's not polite, but neither is a lot of the stuff we say in heated arguments to eachothers face.


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