# What to do with a dangerous horse



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

If she is fine on the ground, can she be rehomed as a pasture pet? Get a contract that states she is NOT to be ridden, and that she is companion use only. If they ride, their issue.

If not, put it down.

Sorry, but getting on that creature is endangering your life.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Has the horse had a full vet work up? scans for kissing spine? assessment for pain and tack checked. You talk of your injuries but does she have any? 

If no pain issues that can be treated / fixed, then I would pts.


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

She has had numerous vet tests prior to me getting her, which I reviewed before purchase and horse is completely sound. She had teeth and feet and a chiropractor work before I got her as the previous owner was bucked off her and was scared to get back on. I rode her, she was fine, so I took her on. To be honest I am not happy selling her on because I just can not fathom giving anyone a horse with issues, just in case they tried to ride her. She really is a sweet mare on the ground, but you couldn't even breed her because she could pass on the personality trait (assuming it is a trait) to the offspring.

***edit***
If I thought there was even a speck of a fear response in her I would still be working with her, but her demeanour is aggressive. She beat up my mums elderly gelding who is 17.2 and 650kg so she is permanently in a separate paddock but she can still see the others.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Mythilus said:


> She has had numerous vet tests prior to me getting her, which I reviewed before purchase and horse is completely sound. She had teeth and feet and a chiropractor work before I got her as the previous owner was bucked off her and was scared to get back on. I rode her, she was fine, so I took her on. To be honest I am not happy selling her on because I just can not fathom giving anyone a horse with issues, just in case they tried to ride her. She really is a sweet mare on the ground, but you couldn't even breed her because she could pass on the personality trait (assuming it is a trait) to the offspring.


 
then, if sure no pain issues with tack or saddle, I would pts and not sell on.


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

I am 99% sure it's not the tack as she has been ridden in GP/AP saddle, western saddle, stock saddle, dressage saddle, harsh bits, soft bits, no bits, you get the picture


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Mythilus said:


> I am 99% sure it's not the tack as she has been ridden in GP/AP saddle, western saddle, stock saddle, dressage saddle, harsh bits, soft bits, no bits, you get the picture


 the vet checks prior to purchase were with your vet?? as a horse's life is in the balance would a recent thorough check be worth it for peace of mind?


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

As much as I would love to, my other mare has recently shredded her leg for a $1,000 vet bill - I really cannot afford another vet bill. And yes, the vet that checked her prior was my vet as I was the one who recommended him for a vet


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Has she been like this from day one?

If she has, and her vet checks came through as clear, then the answer is simple and you know what it is. It's difficult, but there gets to be a point where there is no helping them.

Even if there are health issues, she sounds unpredictable and you sound experienced enough to know her reaction is not one from fear or pain.

I would tell any friend, or relative, to remove themselves from the danger. You're fearful of her now too, which she will easily pick up on.


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

No, that's the strange thing. I rode her 7 km (4.3 miles) and the worst that happened was a spook at a noisy truck - however - she's done this with her previous owner which is how I came to know her in the he first place as I stick pretty well and work with a lot of breakers and young horses at the track. I try to keep a gentle yet firm reputation with my horses. The first two weeks I owned her she was perfect. The first time I rode her at home she was perfect. But the past 3 times I have ridden her she has thrown me off in this manner and hurt me quite badly. The 2nd time she had even been perfect the whole time, working some jumps. I unsaddled her and went to ride her bareback to her field and she went off. Then I got back on, bareback again, and she was fine. To be honest, my boyfriend said she's like a bi polar horse and I actually agree. The change is so sudden and not triggered by anything obvious.


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Is she in season? I had a TBx who turned NASTY when she was on her cycle.

Have you thought about magnesium supplements? They take a good six weeks to get in to the system, though.

If she isn't like this all the time, then I fully retract my statement about being PTS.

She may have your number now, and is trying her hardest, or she may be in pain/discomfort.

Heal yourself. Don't get back on when you're still recovering, you're not 100% and therefore not able to best deal with everything.

Get her on a lunging programme whilst you do this, look at her feed and maybe just cut her down to a small handful of nothing explosive.

What were her previous living arrangements like? She may also be stressed being on her own (even if she is dominant).


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

She cannot be put in with other horses because she beats them up badly. The previous owners prize imported APH was attacked so bad the horse looked like a lion had gotten her. She was in season when I rode her over to my house from where she was agisted and she's not in season now. I have lunged her every day between being bucked off and getting back on and she does it on the lunge too, at random. Can't even see a trigger, let alone predict it when I'm on her. She is on a cool riding horse pellet, pollard and chaff, fed twice a day, living in a paddock. My old boss, who is a horse breaker, won't get on her, he says she's too bad for him to risk himself considering he has to ride to earn his wages. She bucked off a stockman and a jockey and both said the same, she's dangerous. I have messaged a coworker who doesn't want to/cannot ride to have her to just brush her and love her, with two other geldings, but somehow I don't see a home on the horizon.


----------



## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

I think you know what you need to do. Sometimes there is a bad apple in the bunch. If she is dangerous for people and other horses I say that it would be incredibly difficult to find her a suitable home, where somebody has the experience and ability to handle her. Let's face it, she may not be dangerous on the ground now but with bad/unknowledgeable handling that is the route she is going to go down. 

She isn't going to be able to live happily as a pasture puff as part of a herd (lets face it, who wants vet bills), nor as a broodmare (who'd breed to that temperament?), nor riding horse. As harsh as it sounds, she has little value when somebody could get a horse with a good temperament that they can enjoy all round. 

Put her to sleep and invest your time, energy and money into something you can thoroughly enjoy, not something that has you on a first name basis with the E.R. staff.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Go on youtube and google Endospink. He lays very difficult horses down. When they get up they've had a big attitude adjustment. What happens is the horse knows it's completely vulnerably to predator attack yet because it can't get up it knows it's going to die. It has to be held down until it relaxes and lets out a big sigh. The horse has given up. That is when the horse can be allowed up. You will see a difference in the eyes, a calmness.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Mythilus said:


> ... I got her as the previous owner was bucked off her and was scared to get back on.


THIS should have told you that this horse would do the same to you. Why did you buy this mare? Did you think you could retrain her? I want to see a horse at his or her worst when I go horse shopping.
My first reaction was that this horse needs retraining, but, honestly, there are many more horses out there that can be ridden and improved, than owners to keep them. If this mare has been ruined and now is comfortable with throwing riders, I think you should put this mare down so she doesn't hurt someone else, and buy yourself a safer horse.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

We bo't a pony that turned out to be unpredictable, explosive. We had to always carry a stout stick when we entered the pasture as he was inclined to charge with intent to hurt. Quite by accident I learned of his background and it was a violent one, involving a short-tempered man. I decided to start this pony over from the very beginning, putting a halter on. As I worked with him, I learned he love ear rubs so that became my reward system. He hadn't been trained to any degree, just yanked around or smacked with a stick. He had learned to fight back. It took about three months of almost daily time, making sure there no holes in his training. He wound up a great kid's pony and they had a lot of fun with him


----------



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Mythilus said:


> She has had numerous vet tests prior to me getting her, which I reviewed before purchase and horse is completely sound. She had teeth and feet and a chiropractor work before I got her as the previous owner was bucked off her and was scared to get back on. I rode her, she was fine, so I took her on. To be honest I am not happy selling her on because I just can not fathom giving anyone a horse with issues, just in case they tried to ride her. She really is a sweet mare on the ground, but you couldn't even breed her because she could pass on the personality trait (assuming it is a trait) to the offspring.
> 
> ***edit***
> If I thought there was even a speck of a fear response in her I would still be working with her, but her demeanour is aggressive. She beat up my mums elderly gelding who is 17.2 and 650kg so she is permanently in a separate paddock but she can still see the others.


Look into a magnesium suppliments. Low magnesium among other nutritional imbalanced can make a horse act unpredictable. 
Horse Calming Supplements | Performance Equine | High Quality Nutrition


----------



## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

I had a mare similar to this that I bought at 2 years old and finally had put down at the age of 17. The difference to your situation is that I knew her history of abuse, what had been done to her and what her “triggers” were. She was actually a really nice riding horse for many, many years but if someone “tripped her trigger” her personality changed instantly.

Right before I bought her she had been brought back from a certain equine “college”( MM)and the young girl who owned her was limping around with a big cast on her leg. Told me she had tripped over some furniture but I already knew the real story. The filly had been tortured in her stall with lunge whips by several students and had become off and on fearful, suspicious and vicious on the ground and especially in her stall. She had actually kicked the girl.

I bought her anyway and over the years we came to an understanding. There were no episodes until I moved to a different barn many years later. We had 2 feeders in the barn that I found out were throwing their arms around at her and trying to hit her at feeding time. One, out of fear, the other out of pure meaness. I could not get the barn owners to do anything about it and there was no place to move . She became progressively more and more dangerous-I could see the change in her personality. I was afraid she might really hurt someone at the barn so I had her put down quietly by the vet, eating peppermints and not suspecting a thing.

I guess the point of my story is that it is almost _always_ some human that has damaged a horse and caused unpredictable behavior. I never got mad or blamed her-she had her reasons! Personally I could not sleep at night if I ever dumped a horse at slaughter. I would much prefer knowing that a horse had a decent end.


----------



## dkb811 (Oct 15, 2013)

" I could not sleep at night if I ever dumped a horse at slaughter. I would much prefer knowing that a horse had a decent end. "

Nor could I.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

At this point it doesn't matter what made this mare this way. She could be the most horrifying abuse case in the history of equines, but pity wont help, and she's too dangerous to work with

The fact that this horse brutally attacks other horses is a big red flag. I suspect she has ovarian cancer or cysts.

but like I said, it doesn't matter. She hurts people. A horse life is not worth a human life. As she is ill suited to a pasture puff and should never be bred, the kindest thing you could do is put her down.


----------



## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

I don't understand why the professionals you have consulted have not put this to an end already. I don't know of a single professional that would have allowed this to go on. While there are all different levels of horses and not all are suitable for non professionals, on occasion you get a loose screw. It happens just like in people. We either send them to a low end kill pen auction or if the meat is good they go to the local meat packing company. Good clean horse meat is great for dogs


----------



## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

Gosh, there are so many good horses out there who would respond to some training. You seem experienced. Why waste your time on a horse that could kill you with one of these flipping-out incidents? Life's too short. Get rid of that horse, and make sure there's no way she can end up with someone who doesn't know what they're doing, one way or another.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm not going to jump on the put her down bandwagon... I've had 2 horses that were buckers. Both when examined by a vet had locking stifles. One could not pick his back leg up for his hooves to be picked. It was that bad.

I had a mare I rescued. She would throw me every time she was in season. When she was hormonal she was miserable.

I had another rescue who someone beat the daylights out of. Extremely head shy. You had to pet her rump before haltering. If you walked towards her head you would never catch her. She bronco bucked badly. I spent months clicker training her with me leaning on her back. She progressed quickly after that.

Find a trainer to work with her from the ground. It doesn't sound genetic if she is quiet on the ground. It sounds like a training issue.

Where were you when she reared?in the arena or outside on the trails? Going towards home or away? Where you pulling on the reins prior to her acting up?

I am wary recommending euthanasia since I have not seen you handle the horse. I knew someone who was bucked off. She had a death grip on the reins and the horse got fed up with her kicking and pulling on the reins. I knew another lady who bought a $10,000 horse. She had no idea what she was doing. Her husband was kicked in the head during feeding time and required 80 stitches to put his face back together. When I worked with the horse he was perfect as I knew how to handle him.

Since you got the horse for free I would give it away with full disclosure. There is a chance someone will want her as a pasture pet or will be able to work through her issues. Most of my neighbors only have pasture pets. I think the number of horses that get ridden where I live is 1 to 10.


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

4horses said:


> I'm not going to jump on the put her down bandwagon... I've had 2 horses that were buckers. Both when examined by a vet had locking stifles. One could not pick his back leg up for his hooves to be picked. It was that bad.
> 
> I had a mare I rescued. She would throw me every time she was in season. When she was hormonal she was miserable.
> 
> ...


I have been in numerous places when she's gone off on me. Home, away, in her paddock, in the arena. I have had a non-fixable bucker before. As someone else said, sometimes they have a screw loose and cannot be fixed. She has had full vet checks, farrier checks, chiropractors, etc, there is nothing wrong with her. I worked with her from the ground up when I first got her as yes, I thought she could be fixed. I have fixed so many naughty/scared/sore horses, especially off-the-track Thoroughbreds, and while I'm no expert (it takes more than one lifetime to be an expert with horses!) I am confident I know what I am doing. I have only tried to ride her again once since everyone agreed she was dangerous and that was yesterday when she broke my nose. I am not in the habit of dismissing buckers as unfixable - I learnt to ride on a bucker!! - but as I have been badly hurt by this horse and people are all telling me to stop, I am stopping. I have advertised her as a broodmare only and if she is sold it will be with an accompanying contract stating they were advised not to ride her, etc, so it cannot bite me on my butt later. This is honestly one of the worst unpredictable horses I have ever met - and I've seen some crazies.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

gives me shivers just thinking about getting up on such a horse. I don't blame you for never wantng to ride her again.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

NEVER PUT A HORSE DOWN unless they are in physical pain that can't be fixed. There are no bad horses, they are MADE. You need to do lots of groundwork with that horse and not get back on until you are sure she respects you. Round pen her in both directions at a walk trot and lope. She is not to turn her butt on you and you should have her switch directions with her facing you, keeping her eye on you. And have her back up from slight pressure, walk NEXT to you not behind or in front, and stand tied, and just have her be near perfect on the ground. Then, work her up to being ridden as if she's never been ridden before. If you can't handle her or won't take the time to bond with her (she's not doing these things to be mean or to hurt you, she's doing them because she's frustrated with something that you are doing on her back and doesn't respect you) do NOT put a horse down because they've been taught by someone (either you or a past owner) to act that way. Sorry if this is harsh but it's sickening to think that you would put a horse down because you're too lazy to start from level one, groundwork and respect, instead you just get on her KNOWING she has problems and you expect her to do well? Other options if you don't want to keep her, send her to a trainer, turn her over to a rescue (they will take in horses for free, train them a little, and adopt them out), but do NOT put her down. If you took the time to get to know her on the ground and bond with her a little and earn her respect and have her look to you as a leader, she wouldn't even consider doing any of those things you listed. My horse Destiny would take off with her old owners and buck and rear to throw off their rider like the horse you listed, and I can tack her up and get on her and take her on trails because I took two months on the ground only to get to know her. After that (even though she has been ridden before) I got her used to the saddle pad, then the saddle, I lunged her with it on, then eased myself up to riding her. Destiny was passed around to many people who wouldn't take the time to work with her properly, instead they got on, she tried to throw them, and they decided she wasn't worth it and kept selling her. I'm sorry if I sound like a know it all, or am being harsh, but it's the **** truth that you're taking things too quickly with her and should slow down and work with her on the ground only, until you know in your heart she won't do any of those things anymore under saddle. I'm VERY against people putting down a horse because they were too lazy to work out the problems with the horse or hire a trainer.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

Exactly. Disgusting of her to consider putting her horse down because she's too lazy to work with her. She just gets on, knowing that she has bucking problems and says "I can't believe she did it again! I should put her down" instead of saying "I'm going to work with this horse on the ground until I know 100% she won't buck me off again". I hate laziness in the horse world. I would probably be scared to ride her again too, until I fixed the problems which this person obviously doesn't want to do.


tinyliny said:


> gives me shivers just thinking about getting up on such a horse. I don't blame you for never wantng to ride her again.


----------



## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

Destinygirl said:


> NEVER PUT A HORSE DOWN unless they are in physical pain that can't be fixed. There are no bad horses, they are MADE. You need to do lots of groundwork with that horse and not get back on until you are sure she respects you. Round pen her in both directions at a walk trot and lope. She is not to turn her butt on you and you should have her switch directions with her facing you, keeping her eye on you. And have her back up from slight pressure, walk NEXT to you not behind or in front, and stand tied, and just have her be near perfect on the ground. Then, work her up to being ridden as if she's never been ridden before. If you can't handle her or won't take the time to bond with her (she's not doing these things to be mean or to hurt you, she's doing them because she's frustrated with something that you are doing on her back and doesn't respect you) do NOT put a horse down because they've been taught by someone (either you or a past owner) to act that way. Sorry if this is harsh but it's sickening to think that you would put a horse down because you're too lazy to start from level one, groundwork and respect, instead you just get on her KNOWING she has problems and you expect her to do well? Other options if you don't want to keep her, send her to a trainer, turn her over to a rescue (they will take in horses for free, train them a little, and adopt them out), but do NOT put her down. If you took the time to get to know her on the ground and bond with her a little and earn her respect and have her look to you as a leader, she wouldn't even consider doing any of those things you listed. My horse Destiny would take off with her old owners and buck and rear to throw off their rider like the horse you listed, and I can tack her up and get on her and take her on trails because I took two months on the ground only to get to know her. After that (even though she has been ridden before) I got her used to the saddle pad, then the saddle, I lunged her with it on, then eased myself up to riding her. Destiny was passed around to many people who wouldn't take the time to work with her properly, instead they got on, she tried to throw them, and they decided she wasn't worth it and kept selling her. I'm sorry if I sound like a know it all, or am being harsh, but it's the **** truth that you're taking things too quickly with her and should slow down and work with her on the ground only, until you know in your heart she won't do any of those things anymore under saddle. I'm VERY against people putting down a horse because they were too lazy to work out the problems with the horse or hire a trainer.


 Well sounds like we make some shipping arrangements and you have a project on your hands.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

If you're not kidding I'd be happy to take her.


Phly said:


> Well sounds like we make some shipping arrangements and you have a project on your hands.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Destinygirl said:


> NEVER PUT A HORSE DOWN unless they are in physical pain that can't be fixed. .



That's fine, but some physical pain cannot be diagnosed. Not all horses are fixable and I'm the first to give a horse every chance, but not at risk to human life.

Brain tumours can be a real problem, I have known two horses with them that were dangerous and unpredictable.


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Destinygirl said:


> NEVER PUT A HORSE DOWN unless they are in physical pain that can't be fixed. There are no bad horses, they are MADE. You need to do lots of groundwork with that horse and not get back on until you are sure she respects you. Round pen her in both directions at a walk trot and lope. She is not to turn her butt on you and you should have her switch directions with her facing you, keeping her eye on you. And have her back up from slight pressure, walk NEXT to you not behind or in front, and stand tied, and just have her be near perfect on the ground. Then, work her up to being ridden as if she's never been ridden before. If you can't handle her or won't take the time to bond with her (she's not doing these things to be mean or to hurt you, she's doing them because she's frustrated with something that you are doing on her back and doesn't respect you) do NOT put a horse down because they've been taught by someone (either you or a past owner) to act that way. Sorry if this is harsh but it's sickening to think that you would put a horse down because you're too lazy to start from level one, groundwork and respect, instead you just get on her KNOWING she has problems and you expect her to do well? Other options if you don't want to keep her, send her to a trainer, turn her over to a rescue (they will take in horses for free, train them a little, and adopt them out), but do NOT put her down. If you took the time to get to know her on the ground and bond with her a little and earn her respect and have her look to you as a leader, she wouldn't even consider doing any of those things you listed. My horse Destiny would take off with her old owners and buck and rear to throw off their rider like the horse you listed, and I can tack her up and get on her and take her on trails because I took two months on the ground only to get to know her. After that (even though she has been ridden before) I got her used to the saddle pad, then the saddle, I lunged her with it on, then eased myself up to riding her. Destiny was passed around to many people who wouldn't take the time to work with her properly, instead they got on, she tried to throw them, and they decided she wasn't worth it and kept selling her. I'm sorry if I sound like a know it all, or am being harsh, but it's the **** truth that you're taking things too quickly with her and should slow down and work with her on the ground only, until you know in your heart she won't do any of those things anymore under saddle. I'm VERY against people putting down a horse because they were too lazy to work out the problems with the horse or hire a trainer.



I think I have a unicorn you can have, too. 

Honestly, listen to yourself. The OP is an experienced rider, with experienced people around her. This horse will end up severely injuring, or possibly killing, someone. It's not a fluffy pony, and not all ending are happy rainbows and you ca gallop bareback in to the sunset.


----------



## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Myself and someone else gave some info about magnesium and how it can effect a horses behavior like this but not sure if you or anyone else saw that post.


----------



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Sometimes you have to just realize that you made a mistake taking this horse. EVERYBODY makes mistakes. I picked up RR ties this week that were in various degrees of decay bc the store clearanced them for $1/each. DD started to help me unload them and I ended up having to be VERY CAREFUL not to mess up my truck's tailgate, that I JUST spent $1k to replace. $12.00 vs $1,000.00
Penny wise and POUND FOOLISH!!
I'd feel pretty stupid had I done that, BUT dumber if I had had to go to the ER bc I got hurt.
Yours is the same situation. We can all sympathize that a good horse has been mistreated in the past, but your "free" horse is becoming pricey, and there is no guarantee that an injury caused by a dangerous horse will not *permanently disable the horse owner.*
Just some food for thought.


----------



## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

I disagree with keeping the horse. You've had many and bad injuries that the next worse thing she could do is kill you. 

Find a professional and reputable trainer that could try and train the horse. Allow him/her to keep the horse for a month or two (not at your place!) and then ask for their opinion on whether the horse can be sold to experienced people and not be ridden or if the horse should be put down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Destinygirl, clearly you have not read all my posts in this thread. I have already started from the ground up with her, considering I took her on knowing she was a bucker. Every other respect she is quite perfect, she neighs and gallops up to you when you call her, she snuggles into you when you put the bridle on. Something, I think a bad past experience, has made her this way, you are right, but it is too far gone to be fixable, in my opinion. I would like to thank everyone who has given advice, half of me wants to try the magnesium supplement and persevere, but the other half of me is scared pantless. She is currently advertised on three websites and will be in the next issue of Horse Deals (for you Australian readers), as a broodmare or pet only, and if sold she will be accompanied by a contract stating the new owner has been warned and any liability is theirs, etc. If she doesn't sell, well, we all know what that option is.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I was going to say that same thing to Destiny as the OP said in a very polite and respectful manner. no need to be belittling, just clear things up.


----------



## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Thumbs up to you.

Just out of curiosity, may we see one of the ads?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

How is she when ground driven? I know a guy who primarily trains driving horses. He has a horse that is unrideable due to bucking issues who is doing well as a driving horse. In my opinion his horse has some back injury...

If she is so sweet on the ground do you think she will make a pasture pet?

The worst bucker I met was rehomed to a racehorse exercise rider. He bucked her off on her first ride!


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

4horses said:


> How is she when ground driven? I know a guy who primarily trains driving horses. He has a horse that is unrideable due to bucking issues who is doing well as a driving horse. In my opinion his horse has some back injury...
> 
> If she is so sweet on the ground do you think she will make a pasture pet?
> 
> The worst bucker I met was rehomed to a racehorse exercise rider. He bucked her off on her first ride!


I was wondering that myself, but I read that Thoroughbreds generally don't make the best driving horses because they are highly strung, and she is a bit spooky, even in the paddock - a bird flew from a bush and she went galloping off with her tail in the air like an Arabian and stood a ways off and snorted at the bush, lol. As for her ad, this is the first one I wrote. I have had to make a few changes to some to fit word counts and such, and one well-connected person I talked about to her just took down her basics (age, breed, sire/dam, etc).

"Roxie is a 2010 thoroughbred mare, 4 years old, 15 hands, by Husson from the black-type race-winning Thunder Gulch mare, Thunderstrike. Roxie is very pretty, bay with a big white star and would be great for breeding stock horses or pony crosses. Roxie did not race and should not be ridden due to being a bad bucker. She will be sold as a broodmare or companion horse/pet because while she is a dream on the ground to brush, catch, float, shoe, etc, she is quite dangerous in the saddle and I would not feel comfortable selling her as a riding horse. She will neigh and gallop up to you when you call her in the paddock and isn't bossy at feed times. Used to farm dogs, cats and being next to a relatively busy road. Open to offers as needs to be sold."

Accompanied by cute picture of her looking like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. Which it wouldn't...if your not on her back.

**In regards to 4horses**
Yes us racehorse riders are not immune to buckers, sadly!!


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I read back through all this and have a couple things to say. One is that I have worked with several horses with gulch breeding, and they all had one thing in common. they do not take being shoved around very well. One mare in particular that was a granddaughter of gulch reminded me of this mare, and her problem was being pushed too far, too fast. Another case that reminded me of this was a gelding that came off the track for a winter break. He was the biggest sweetheart, wouldn't hurt a fly. It was shocking then, when I found out he was a bad bucker that had all the excersise riders and jockeys scared. I said right off the bat that something was wrong, but they just replied that he had seen the vet and chiro and was fine. a few weeks of rest later and he started having issues with sheath swelling. It got so bad that he went to another vet. Turns out he had a significant, undiagnosed pelvic injury.

anyways, I do think that there are other possible explanations to her behaviour, but without having the desire and funds to explore them, they are not worth considering. That said, I wouldn't touch a chronic bucker myself. I don't want to spend my life crippled.

My biggest question in all of this, is why are you not putting her down? She has an unpredictable vice, the cause of which is unknown, thus could be hereditary. She is brutally violent to pasture mates, so a typical breeding set up, with the mares and foals all together is extremely unwise. As a pasture puff she would have to be condemned to a life of solitude. In addition to al of that, the likely hood that some wannabe trainer kid is going to try to "fix" her and get hurt is probable. Why would you sell her on? Its not kind to the horse or to the people who might get her.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i missed the part about being violent to pasture mates.


----------



## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

The OP has stated she'll have a contract that the horse shouldn't be ridden and those who do is their own loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EponaLynn (Jul 16, 2013)

Mythilus said:


> I was wondering that myself, but I read that Thoroughbreds generally don't make the best driving horses because they are highly strung, and she is a bit spooky, even in the paddock - a bird flew from a bush and she went galloping off with her tail in the air like an Arabian and stood a ways off and snorted at the bush, lol. As for her ad, this is the first one I wrote. I have had to make a few changes to some to fit word counts and such, and one well-connected person I talked about to her just took down her basics (age, breed, sire/dam, etc).
> 
> "Roxie is a 2010 thoroughbred mare, 4 years old, 15 hands, by Husson from the black-type race-winning Thunder Gulch mare, Thunderstrike. Roxie is very pretty, bay with a big white star and would be great for breeding stock horses or pony crosses. Roxie did not race and should not be ridden due to being a bad bucker. She will be sold as a broodmare or companion horse/pet because while she is a dream on the ground to brush, catch, float, shoe, etc, she is quite dangerous in the saddle and I would not feel comfortable selling her as a riding horse. She will neigh and gallop up to you when you call her in the paddock and isn't bossy at feed times. Used to farm dogs, cats and being next to a relatively busy road. Open to offers as needs to be sold."
> 
> ...


I read your thread and feel for you however I'd like you to think about what kind of companion she could possibly be if she beats the crap out of other horses (to the point of looking like they were attacked by a lion)? I would not breed a horse like this either as there could be a genetic component...people always look to the parents for temperament.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> The OP has stated she'll have a contract that the horse shouldn't be ridden and those who do is their own loss.


 and a piece of paper means what? that the person giving her away thinks she's dangerous? what about in a year or four or 10(this mare is only 4 after all) when the home that has left her as a lonely pasture puff needs to rehome her in a hurry, and the only info passed on is "we've never rode her".

Personally, I would not take the chance. Paperwork means nothing, but some kid getting hurt or killed down the road on a horse I knew was dangerous but refused to put down does mean something to me.


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

BlueSpark said:


> and a piece of paper means what? that the person giving her away thinks she's dangerous? what about in a year or four or 10(this mare is only 4 after all) when the home that has left her as a lonely pasture puff needs to rehome her in a hurry, and the only info passed on is "we've never rode her".
> 
> Personally, I would not take the chance. Paperwork means nothing, but some kid getting hurt or killed down the road on a horse I knew was dangerous but refused to put down does mean something to me.


See that is what I thought, but my friends are all telling me to just rehome her and guilt-tripping me about euthanasing her. I thought I would at least try to rehome her but honestly, chances are pretty slim. No one wants a horse like her, after all.


----------



## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Mythilus said:


> See that is what I thought, but my friends are all telling me to just rehome her and guilt-tripping me about euthanasing her. I thought I would at least try to rehome her but honestly, chances are pretty slim. No one wants a horse like her, after all.


Tell your friends to come and take her off your hands.


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> Myself and someone else gave some info about magnesium and how it can effect a horses behavior like this but not sure if you or anyone else saw that post.


I took yours & other's advice on the mag. a while back with one of mine that had really bad behavior towards other horses & seemed in heat all the time. She wrecked her stall trying to fight her passive neighbor so I had it covered with 1" stall mats, all around. She could not be turned out with others because she would snap for no reason. I had considered spaying her.
After reading on this forum about the magnesium I started her on a supplement & it has made a world of difference. She even has a friend now. Thanks to those who suggest the magnesium.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The OP's horse maybe could be helped with the mag. but it sounds like a much worse case than my horse. Mine had a hormonal imbalance but was sound when ridden. 

I guess it wouldn't hurt to try the supplement but I'd be worried about the outcome if it didn't work. If it an old injury causing riding pain I think I'd have to resort to plan B, as hard as that would be.

I have another mare that liked to put people in the hospital & correct training fixed her but as the OP sounds fully able to retrain & the mare didn't come around it sounds like it neither a training or diet issue.
Not all horses can be saved or fixed.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Why would you put down a 4 yr old? This horse is green as grass! If this was a chronic bucker who had been doing this for years and gotten away with it, I would say euthanasia is okay... But a 4 yr old is still a baby.

I think with the right trainer who starts her over from the ground up, she would have a chance. Along with a vet visit to check her from head to toe for injuries or soreness.

And I am sorry the OP got hurt, but surely there were warning signs before she went crazy! Was she nervous, was her neck tense, was her head up? I think there is something we are overlooking here. 

The OP must not have done very much ground work, if she has only had the horse for a month (as the first post says). 

If I knew I had a bucker I would sure spend a lot more than a month doing groundwork! I might spend 3-6 months, ground driving, putting a dummy rider (stuffed animal or backpack with books) up there, lunging, and ground driving that horse up and down the street. Trailering to new places for exposure... I like to start doing that when my horses are long yearlings or young 2 yr olds, before I ever get in the saddle. 

I do wonder if this horse was never properly backed, or taught to trust a rider leaning on her? Another thing I wonder is if the rider was kicking, and the horse got scared and bucked? A green horse doesn't know what a rider kicking means. 

Exactly how many rides has this horse had? Is this horse an ex-racehorse? 

Before we label her dangerous, all the facts need to be known.

In my opinion, it sounds like this is a young horse who has not been started properly and needs more time learning the basics on the ground. 

I once watched an exercise rider try out a 4 yr old on its first ride. The poor mare was another case of a horse that was not properly started or prepared for a rider. She completely had a meltdown, bolted at a gallop, spun around and sent the rider flying. They tried again, and sure enough she got him off. 

Was this mare vicious and deserving to be put down? Absolutely not. She had not been properly backed. She reacted to the rider with absolute terror. Someone rushed her training, did not work her consistently enough, and certainly did not lean on her back, before trying to throw a rider up there. (I worked there so I knew she wasn't worked more than once every few weeks!)

I once knew a very green 3 yr old horse who was so laid back, his new owner took straight out on a trail ride! He did great for the first 2 rides. On the 3rd ride, it was rainy and windy, he was at a new location, and he reared up, slipped (as it was muddy) and nearly landed on his rider. He was sold right after that, as he had acted up. If he was my horse, he would have been in a round pen learning voice commands, not out on a trail ride! 

If this mare is calm on the ground and easy to work with, than I doubt this is something genetic. 

The only other thing that comes to mind is kissing spines. I've heard horses with it can be very explosive at times, yet completely calm at others. 

"she does it on the lunge too, at random". It is not okay to let a horse buck/gallop or act up on the lunge, as then the horse thinks it is okay to do so under saddle. I think in the training section someone, Cherie maybe? recommended lunging with both side reins and an over check for known buckers. 

This horse may be too much for you, but it doesn't mean there isn't someone else who will do better. Someone who has more time to start her on the ground perhaps?


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

4horses said:


> Why would you put down a 4 yr old? This horse is green as grass! If this was a chronic bucker who had been doing this for years and gotten away with it, I would say euthanasia is okay... But a 4 yr old is still a baby.
> 
> I think with the right trainer who starts her over from the ground up, she would have a chance. Along with a vet visit to check her from head to toe for injuries or soreness.
> 
> ...


If you have read every post, I have already spoken about everything you have mentioned and not to sound rude, but I am sick of people commenting saying to ground work her, vet check, etc because I have _*done all those things*_. I also already said she was not a racehorse, though she is a thoroughbred. She had also been ground worked for 4 months before I got her, as the previous owner was scared to ride her, as I mentioned. I have also ridden this horse ages ago before I got her, after the first time she went bad with the last owner. She has no warning, no stiff neck, no head toss, no tail swishing. She did squeal before she bucked the first time but hasn't since. I lunged her yesterday and she didn't do anything and I tried all sorts of things to find a trigger, poked her with the lunge whip behind the girth where my heels would be to kick or squeeze, flicked the whip gently over her head and neck and back, behind the saddle, even let my dogs bark at her. Nothing. She was fully saddled and bridled as if she were being ridden, with the stirrups down to flop against her sides to see if that caused something. The bad bucker I had as a kid, you could tell when she was going to buck and as a result you stayed on a bit longer, but she'd always get you off eventually. That horse is now a broodmare.

Roxie has had at least 50 rides with me as she was getting worked every day since I had her and I rode her somewhat before I took her on. She was ridden every day for 6 months until the last owner actually got hurt getting bucked off, and therefore became scared (enter me). This is why it is strange, is I started her from scratch, as explained previously, and she never put a foot wrong. You can bounce yourself on her, ride bareback, lean down both sides, lean backward, sit behind the saddle, snuggle her neck from atop her, ruffle her ears while riding, hang your legs around her neck while on her, 'plank' on her. Then one day, for no reason, she just flips. She is young, so of course the first thing I thought was a lack of proper education and therefore fear response. One time she bucked as I was getting off, I thought maybe I had bumped her with my foot or something, but my mum's partner said my foot was well clear of her and that's why I came off so quick (lol).

I have broken in horses before so I made sure to cover all the aspects I would cover with an unbacked horse before I got on her. I also believe a dressage rider had her for retraining previously but she mustn't have tried very hard cause Rox was back with the owner after about a fortnight.

I think I may have already said this, but half of me wants her gone, half of me wants to persevere. I would, too, if my mother hadn't basically banned me from riding her, since I've had her around to help (wonderful horsewoman) since the first 'incident'. She told me she doesn't want me riding Rox under any circumstances.


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Gosh, to have had so much schooling previously with different people and she is now only 4! I find that quite shocking if she wasn't a racehorse.


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Why's that, Clava?


----------



## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Mythilus said:


> Why's that, Clava?


 Only because in my ideal world a horse might be lightly backed at 3 but do very little until 4+, some, if immature mentally or physically I wouldn't even back until 4.


----------



## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I find horses with Gulch breeding to be very late to mature. I bet if this horse was thrown out to pasture for a year and left un touched then restarted from the very beginning very slowly you would have a different horse. She is 4 and sounds like she was started fast and hard. She has had a lot thrown at her for an unraced 4 year old.

If you're unwilling to take that route then id send her on the meat wagon or have her pts. She is not safe to be a broodmare with this temperament, sounds like she would kill the foal. She isnt safe as a companion horse. 

She has been ruined by humans pushing her to fast and hard and now she is angry with the world. Its a shame, her breeding makes for nice sport horses if started right.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I thought in your first post you stated you had only had her for a month?

Sorry, that is why I was a bit confused. So you were riding her at the previous owner's house often?

I really think you are missing something. Bucking when you go to get off? That sounds like either fear or back pain to me.

I had a horse bolt with me when I put one foot in the stirrup. He was just green and had a history of being nervous with movement on his back. If you took off your hat, or made a sudden movement, he would get scared and take off.

I do agree with horses being late to mature. I took in a malnurished 2 yr old and very lightly started her at 3. She had a few years off from ages 4-7, with just a few rides every few months or so. Due to my health issues, I just didn't have the time to invest. At age 8 I really started working her again, and what a difference the time off had made! 

Mentally she was so much more mature. It was like the difference between teaching a High school student and an older adult in ESOL. 

IF you are going to keep working her on the ground, I would keep lunging her in side reins with an overcheck. It is much easier to fix bucking on the ground than in the saddle! 

You may also want to try Regumate. Have you palapted all over her withers and back and applied hard pressure?


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wonder how much of her aggression towards other horses and people is rooted in fear - she's become extremely defensive and distrustful of everything?
We took a young OTTB on like this, she'd raced twice and had gone straight from spending her whole life in a field to a yard that was known for not treating horses very kindly.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

You say you've done all these things, but you haven't done enough groundwork if she is doing that with you. I've said before, turn her over to a rescue, they'll take her in for free. They'll ask you get her up to date on her worming and hoof care but they won't reject her. They'll take her in, train her, and adopt her out. I reread my post and I did sound mean, I'm sorry if I came off that way, but I don't like to see good horses put down. Your horse learned she can get people off and the way to correct that is the long way, groundwork, or have someone who has a lot of experience and she'll learn she can't get people off with bucking. I recommend the groundwork way, that'll fix a horse and I believe every horse is fixable. At one point I said my own horse wasn't fixable but I didn't give up on her, and honestly, I think you should keep this horse and train her some more and you'll be surprised what she can become. You will really regret putting her down. 

But, please don't say no one will take her because they will if you turn her over to a rescue or give her away as a pasture pet. Just please don't put her down.


----------



## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Destiny, no rescue will take her. She is dangerous to humans and other animals. She cant be turned out with other horses because she attacks them. 

Some horses are just better off on the meat wagon or pts. There are thousands of horses out there that are not dangerous and need homes. Rescues are over flowing with horses needing homes.


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> She has been ruined by humans pushing her to fast and hard and now she is angry with the world. Its a shame, her breeding makes for nice sport horses if started right.


I totally agree here. She has been ruined, whatever happened before I knew her, and now she is too far gone to fix, it seems. My other mare was kind of in the same boat, she was so scared of people she would lash out, and she still will kick if you happen to surprise her and hates new people, but after 6 years she has finally accepted my mum isn't going to hurt her. Sadly for Roxie I am now too scared to progress and after Angel's vet bill, I don't really have to funds to get her to a trainer, on top of the fact she isn't anything super, she won't be a show jumper (what I primarily do) and she isn't suited to dressage and trail riding tends to spook her, what with all those scary cars, cows, birds, bicycles, etc you can encounter, though that would be fixed with many many maaaannnyy trail rides.

Also, I said Angel wasn't fixable, I try to believe most horses are fixable. Angel kicked me in the stomach once, but it's taken all these years for me to realise it's much harder to fix a horse with riding issues than it is to fix a horse with ground issues.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Rescues are not dumping grounds for horses unable to be placed. The whole goal for a true, reputable rescue should be adoption for as many as possible. Rescues are NOT free retirement homes, nor do they want dangerous horses that can do harm to people and other animals.

I really and truly don't understand where this whole idea started of rescues being expected to take on any and every rogue animal that comes down the pike.

The animal is dangerous and miserable in her own skin. Why would anyone in their right mind even think about giving a horse like that to anyone else?


----------



## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Admittedly I have skipped around with some of the posts on this thread, you've heard a lot of advice so i'm just going to give you some food for thought with a mare I have now. 

I have mixed emotions about this. Reading a horse is dangerous and seeing it in person or on video is another story entirely. 

I do think something has been overlooked, and it's very, very easy to do. 

I have a mare right now, that was in this boat. She was deemed dangerous, unridable, unpredictable, chronic bucker, bolter, impossible to catch, the works pretty much and she's a nine year old. I bought her because she has excellent conformation, she's registered, palomino and I had a gut feeling. 

I restarted her as I would any other horse and she knew HOW to do pretty much everything I normally do. The difference is that she wasn't truly relaxed about any of it. She'd stand still for anything, she moved off and stopped when I asked, overall she LOOKED to do everything quite well. she'd even cock a back leg, lick her lips and give the appearance of being relaxed. The first couple sessions I was stumped and I have worked thousands of problem horses. I had to go and examine myself and her with a fine tooth comb pretty much. She never blinked ( well of course she blinked but you know what I mean. A tense horse keeps their eyes open as long as they can) or put her head lower than wither height. 

This hidden tension was the cause for all of her issues and let me tell you, when she had a mind to do something, it happened. This mare is athletic, and I had no intentions of ever being on her if she decided to buck. Combined with that tension, she had years to perfect bucking a rider off and I can not ride a bronc. 

I can not tell you how many hours I spent desensitizing. I'd desensitize, she'd stand still and I would rub on her neck and topline till I got SOMETHING, some form of real relaxation, even a blink. I rubbed on that mare till my hands were raw and my arms felt like they would fall off. Then I spent a ton of time getting that same relaxation during our sensitizing and getting those hindquarters to disengage. To even my barn owner who is a reining trainer, nothing really looked like it was changing at first. It took every shred my my patience ( and I have a lot) to not skip ahead. 

My first ride on her was deceptive. In the roundpen, she was pretty chilled out and I thought we'd made a huge dent in her issues. The first ride in the arena? It wasn't so productive. I did NOT move forward till she would flex laterally without moving and softly disengage her hindquarters without panicking, she was pretty much bolting in place for quite a while. we got to a point where I almost puked I was so dizzy. Then we finally walked forward. I walked forward a couple strides and bent to a stop more times then I could count. Every moment of our ride I was prepared to have her attempt to rocket launch me and so I spent every moment taking worry out and putting relaxation back in. We didn't really ever go straight forward, I purposefully kept her bent so she was always crossing over at least a little. The next ride, we trotted and so I had to let go and let her straighten up a bit. We still bent to a stop a ton. We barely trotted a couple strides before I could feel more tension leak in. 

It took weeks of stuff that would be boring to most riders to get her to the point where we could w/t/l on a loose rein without her thinking about doing something stupid. Literally, all we did for weeks was go forward and bend to a stop. None of my fellow boarders or BO got it. When that switch finally clicked, her training raced forward. The mare is smart and at some point had a really nice foundation put on her. 

It's been a few months and nobody would ever know she had issues at some point. I've taken her to clinics to get her out and about, she's had beginners ride her under supervision and she is finally really run to ride and we are both relaxed, happy campers. At this point she's rehabbed. Everything i'm doing with her now is only improving her value.

When you take on a project, you have to weigh things out. I took her on because there was a huge reward. If she had poor conformation, not much try, wasn't athletic, was an ugly color ( as much as I hate to admit it, color does sell), etc. I would not have taken her on because it would not be worth it. Even if I couldn't have done anything with her, she'd still be a nice broodmare or companion because she's great with other horses. 

Only you can decide if she is worth the risk. However, to me, you sound over horsed and you are scared and rightfully so. Even if you had the money to send her to a good trainer, I think you would always be leery around her and that would translate to her and she would try the same things. The responsible thing if you can not keep her as a pasture ornament is to euthanize her. You have no control of what people will do if you sell her and the last thing you would want is for someone to get hurt on her, or worse killed. 

Life is too short to risk your neck on horses that aren't worth it. There are so many nice horses out there, get one of those. You aren't a trainer, it isn't your job to deal with this kind of behavior. You deserve a horse that isn't going to send you to the hospital.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

The one I board at took in a horse that would rear and flip over onto people. Another one had the same issue as the OP's horse, you would get on her and she'd try and buck you off. One other would take off with you while you were on her, and one of the horses there would actually charge other horses into humans. They fixed all these horses and now they can all be ridden are are near perfect.


Speed Racer said:


> Rescues are not dumping grounds for horses unable to be placed. The whole goal for a true, reputable rescue should be adoption for as many as possible. Rescues are NOT free retirement homes, nor do they want dangerous horses that can do harm to people and other animals.
> 
> I really and truly don't understand where this whole idea started of rescues being expected to take on any and every rogue animal that comes down the pike.
> 
> The animal is dangerous and miserable in her own skin. Why would anyone in their right mind even think about giving a horse like that to anyone else?


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Destinygirl said:


> You say you've done all these things, but you haven't done enough groundwork if she is doing that with you. I've said before, turn her over to a rescue, they'll take her in for free. They'll ask you get her up to date on her worming and hoof care but they won't reject her. They'll take her in, train her, and adopt her out. I reread my post and I did sound mean, I'm sorry if I came off that way, but I don't like to see good horses put down. Your horse learned she can get people off and the way to correct that is the long way, groundwork, or have someone who has a lot of experience and she'll learn she can't get people off with bucking. I recommend the groundwork way, that'll fix a horse and I believe every horse is fixable. At one point I said my own horse wasn't fixable but I didn't give up on her, and honestly, I think you should keep this horse and train her some more and you'll be surprised what she can become. You will really regret putting her down.
> 
> But, please don't say no one will take her because they will if you turn her over to a rescue or give her away as a pasture pet. Just please don't put her down.


Groundwork is not a fixer for everything. You are missing the point. Looking back to the threads you started, you have been riding for a year and a few months in May, and wanted to know if your horse "hated" you. All the money in the world cannot give you hands on experience in a couple of months to believe that every horse can be fixed. They can't, simple as that.

I sympathies, because I thought the same. I had an awful first trainer, who put me on a flipper. The mare had crushed someone's hips, but he wanted her back in the show ring, I thought I had this special bond with the horse, as I was the only one riding her. Frank truth was I'd be told to Lu ge her (stand in the middle, hold on tight and chase) and then get on a tired horse, who could barely feel my weight at 14 years old. At first, when the mare was sent to be lion food, I couldn't forgive my trainer. As the years went in, and my experience developed, I realized what a dangerous and life threatening experience I had riding that horse. 

My advice would be to read what people have written on this forum. A lot of knowledgeable riders have posted, and you can start to learn things.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

2 years now. Also, that was a while ago and my horse is fixed now and doesn't do any of that anymore. You can believe not all horses can be fixed, but I will refuse to believe that for the rest of my life and nothing you say can make me think different. Why would your trainer put you on a horse that flips instead of training her herself? She sounds terrible. Also, I'm still learning, and I have learned that horses don't "hate" you. I thought that a while ago because I had a bad experience and "humanized" her by thinking she didn't like me but now I know that's not true. Anyway, I wanted to post here because I really don't like hearing about horses having to die, I don't like it when any animals die. Unless it's from old age or the animal was in so much pain they had to be put down.


DuffyDuck said:


> Groundwork is not a fixer for everything. You are missing the point. Looking back to the threads you started, you have been riding for a year and a few months in May, and wanted to know if your horse "hated" you. All the money in the world cannot give you hands on experience in a couple of months to believe that every horse can be fixed. They can't, simple as that.
> 
> I sympathies, because I thought the same. I had an awful first trainer, who put me on a flipper. The mare had crushed someone's hips, but he wanted her back in the show ring, I thought I had this special bond with the horse, as I was the only one riding her. Frank truth was I'd be told to Lu ge her (stand in the middle, hold on tight and chase) and then get on a tired horse, who could barely feel my weight at 14 years old. At first, when the mare was sent to be lion food, I couldn't forgive my trainer. As the years went in, and my experience developed, I realized what a dangerous and life threatening experience I had riding that horse.
> 
> My advice would be to read what people have written on this forum. A lot of knowledgeable riders have posted, and you can start to learn things.


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Destinygirl said:


> You say you've done all these things, but you haven't done enough groundwork if she is doing that with you. I've said before, turn her over to a rescue, they'll take her in for free. They'll ask you get her up to date on her worming and hoof care but they won't reject her. They'll take her in, train her, and adopt her out. I reread my post and I did sound mean, I'm sorry if I came off that way, but I don't like to see good horses put down. Your horse learned she can get people off and the way to correct that is the long way, groundwork, or have someone who has a lot of experience and she'll learn she can't get people off with bucking. I recommend the groundwork way, that'll fix a horse and I believe every horse is fixable. At one point I said my own horse wasn't fixable but I didn't give up on her, and honestly, I think you should keep this horse and train her some more and you'll be surprised what she can become. You will really regret putting her down.
> 
> But, please don't say no one will take her because they will if you turn her over to a rescue or give her away as a pasture pet. Just please don't put her down.


Give her away as a pasture pet? You do realize that could be the start of ever worsening homes or a quick load on a kill truck.

A neighbor was going to give away an older horse to the 'nice guy' with hundreds of acres for horses like that just because he liked them. I warned her it was a scam. Two guys show up after dark with a scary trailer & smelling of alcohol. She was still going to send the horse until her daughter over heard them saying something about filling the load. She kept the horse & he was humanely PTS later.
Isn't it better to know how the story ended than hope that there is a fairy tale person who will give any horse a happy pasture life? 

There are people who will try to make a buck off of a free to good home horse. They know exactly what to say to get what they want.
I'd rather know where my horse is, even if it's buried out back.


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Destinygirl said:


> 2 years now. Also, that was a while ago and my horse is fixed now and doesn't do any of that anymore. You can believe not all horses can be fixed, but I will refuse to believe that for the rest of my life and nothing you say can make me think different. Why would your trainer put you on a horse that flips instead of training her herself? She sounds terrible. Also, I'm still learning, and I have learned that horses don't "hate" you. I thought that a while ago because I had a bad experience and "humanized" her by thinking she didn't like me but now I know that's not true. Anyway, I wanted to post here because I really don't like hearing about horses having to die, I don't like it when any animals die. Unless it's from old age or the animal was in so much pain they had to be put down.


Nobody likes to hear of horses having to die just as they don't like to hear of a person dying because they refused to see the truth that not all horses can be saved.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Destinygirl said:


> 2 years now.


Oh yes, TWO WHOLE YEARS of horse experience surely trumps those of us who have had horses 35 years or more. :?

I'm going to assume you HEARD that these supposed rogue horses were magically fixed, as I'm sure you weren't around to actually see it happen. 

You're very young and idealistic, and still believe that everyone and everything can have a pie in the sky, rainbow glitter, happy ending. The fact is that life isn't a Disney movie, and not all people or animals are salvageable. It's a tough, bitter lesson to learn, and I just pray you don't get hurt or worse before you learn it.

I understand where you're coming from because I was young and naive once too, as were most of the adults here. The kids who grew up on farms or ranches knew the score a lot sooner than those of us who lived in urban and suburban areas.

I would euth a horse like that if I came across one, simply because I would feel responsible if it hurt or killed anyone else, especially a young, naive child. I take my responsibility as a good steward very seriously, and being one includes knowing when not to move an animal on, and doing the right thing even if it isn't popular with the bleeding hearts.

I can live with myself quite comfortably if I euth a dangerous animal. I'd be very guilt and grief stricken if I refused to do the right thing, and another person or animal got hurt because of my inability to act like a responsible steward and do what's best for everyone, including that poor, miserable creature who's as much a danger to itself as others.


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Unfortunately, Destiny-there is horse out there who could change your mind about all of them being able to be saved. I only hope they don't find their way to you with all of you naiveté.

You do realize there are also physical issues that can cause horses to be dangerous? How would ground work fix that?

The OP has tried everything in her power to save this horse. Unfortunately, the horse has not helped itself. There comes a time in all things that enough is enough.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*Li*



Destinygirl said:


> 2 years now. Also, that was a while ago and my horse is fixed now and doesn't do any of that anymore. You can believe not all horses can be fixed, but I will refuse to believe that for the rest of my life and nothing you say can make me think different. Why would your trainer put you on a horse that flips instead of training her herself? She sounds terrible. Also, I'm still learning, and I have learned that horses don't "hate" you. I thought that a while ago because I had a bad experience and "humanized" her by thinking she didn't like me but now I know that's not true. Anyway, I wanted to post here because I really don't like hearing about horses having to die, I don't like it when any animals die. Unless it's from old age or the animal was in so much pain they had to be put down.


As someone who worked professionally with horses for over 50 years and had 10 years riding experience before that, I think I can call myself experienced.

My speciality was with difficult horses. Horses that were dangerous one way or another or classed as being 'impossible' to ride. There is always a reason for the behaviour, some can be helped, some are beyond redemption. In that case the best thing is to put them down. 

You, my dear have two years experience of being around horses. Yours state that the barn you are at have 'cured' difficult horses. The thing is that some are more difficult than others. 
You can be live what you like about retraining this sort of horse. When you have been bucked off more than once, had a horse rear over backwards, truly bolted with and I am not just talking about a horse going faster than you want but a horse running blind. When you have had a horse attack you with the idea of killing you then you might just change your mind about every one being salvageable. 

You might think that people are having a go at you - they are not, they are trying to tell you that experience tells and believe me, many of those that have tied to explain to you have ridden more horses in their life time than you have had hot dinners. 

I know I have.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

Hey, I said I have 2 years experience, not that I _am_ experienced. I was stating a fact, that I had been riding for two years, not an opinion that I supposedly think that since I'd been riding for two years I am very experienced. Because in my opinion, someone isn't experienced with horses unless they have been working with them for 10+ years, I'm not even near that. I don't think I know everything, no one at the barn I board at knows everything, and no professional trainers know everything. I know that, and I'm not even close to being an experienced horse person and know I am still learning. I never claimed to be a good rider, good with horses, or experienced in any way. I stopped arguing a while ago, I respect your opinion so please respect mine and stop replying to my post and saying how inexperienced I am (because I already know this, I will not be experienced for a very long time). It's really starting to bother me because everyone has been saying the same thing to me -- that their horse had to be put down and they have been seeing other horses being put down because they were dangerous. Nobody else needs to make a point about dangerous horses being put down because 10 other people did already.


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Destinygirl said:


> Hey, I said I have 2 years experience, not that I _am_ experienced. I was stating a fact, that I had been riding for two years, not an opinion that I supposedly think that since I'd been riding for two years I am very experienced. Because in my opinion, someone isn't experienced with horses unless they have been working with them for 10+ years, I'm not even near that. I don't think I know everything, no one at the barn I board at knows everything, and no professional trainers know everything. I know that, and I'm not even close to being an experienced horse person and know I am still learning. I never claimed to be a good rider, good with horses, or experienced in any way. I stopped arguing a while ago, I respect your opinion so please respect mine and stop replying to my post and saying how inexperienced I am (because I already know this, I will not be experienced for a very long time). It's really starting to bother me because everyone has been saying the same thing to me -- that their horse had to be put down and they have been seeing other horses being put down because they were dangerous. Nobody else needs to make a point about dangerous horses being put down because 10 other people did already.


So if one person tells you to put the horse down, are you going to do it? Or are you going to take advice from several people, who ARE experienced enough to help give GOOD advice and all say the same thing? Please be logical.

People are picking up on your posts, because you have a very cute and cuddly view of the horse world, and quite honestly it's dangerous. This horse is dangerous, and it's views like yours that put people in danger because they think all horses can be fixed with groundwork, trust and a sprinkle of fairy dust.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

Please don't be rude, and I don't have a cute and cuddly view of the horse world. I don't know what else to say to make you all stop joking about me. QUOTE=DuffyDuck;6374097]So if one person tells you to put the horse down, are you going to do it? Or are you going to take advice from several people, who ARE experienced enough to help give GOOD advice and all say the same thing? Please be logical.

People are picking up on your posts, because you have a very cute and cuddly view of the horse world, and quite honestly it's dangerous. This horse is dangerous, and it's views like yours that put people in danger because they think all horses can be fixed with groundwork, trust and a sprinkle of fairy dust.[/QUOTE]


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Destinygirl said:


> Please don't be rude, and I don't have a cute and cuddly view of the horse world. I don't know what else to say to make you all stop joking about me.


 
My dear, I am certainly NOT joking about you. I am trying, with all earnest, to tell you that this is real life. Your views and opinions will get you hurt. I know because I thought exactly the same way as you, as I have already posted. I learnt the VERY hard way and have broken a lot of bones, and now had to give up my future career.. the only goal I had in life.. so no, I am not joking.. I am being VERY serious about dangerous horses and your complete lack of understanding of this point.

The posters on here are SO experienced, and have had their fair share of horses. The girl who started this thread is an experienced rider, but even people who train and deal with crazy, dangerous horses won't help this mare.

You need to take a step back, read through what people have written and understand not every single horse can be saved, and the kindest thing to do is to euth them.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Destinygirl said:


> Please don't be rude, and I don't have a cute and cuddly view of the horse world. I don't know what else to say to make you all stop joking about me.


Trust me, I'm not joking about you. I'm concerned that you're going to get hurt or worse, because with the attitude that every horse can be fixed it's not a matter of_ if_ it's a matter of _when_ and how badly you're going to be hurt. I'd rather your naivete didn't get you killed or on a ventilator.

Nobody's being rude, but you don't get to post your opinion then tell others they can't post theirs when it doesn't agree with yours, especially when those opposing viewpoints are coming from many years of experience and yours is coming only from emotion.

If a horse badly damages or kills you both of you will pay the ultimate price, and I for one would prefer not to see that happen.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

I will try to understand your point of view. People really shouldn't keep replying about Disney movies and pixie dust though... Ridiculous. Haven't heard of a single Disney movie about a horse and I don't even know what pixie dust is.


DuffyDuck said:


> My dear, I am certainly NOT joking about you. I am trying, with all earnest, to tell you that this is real life. Your views and opinions will get you hurt. I know because I thought exactly the same way as you, as I have already posted. I learnt the VERY hard way and have broken a lot of bones, and now had to give up my future career.. the only goal I had in life.. so no, I am not joking.. I am being VERY serious about dangerous horses and your complete lack of understanding of this point.
> 
> The posters on here are SO experienced, and have had their fair share of horses. The girl who started this thread is an experienced rider, but even people who train and deal with crazy, dangerous horses won't help this mare.
> 
> You need to take a step back, read through what people have written and understand not every single horse can be saved, and the kindest thing to do is to euth them.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

I apologized once before, I feel bad about what I posted before and I came off as very rude and I should have said what I thought in a nicer way.


Speed Racer said:


> Trust me, I'm not joking about you. I'm concerned that you're going to get hurt or worse, because with the attitude that every horse can be fixed it's not a matter of_ if_ it's a matter of _when_ and how badly you're going to be hurt. I'd rather your naivete didn't get you killed or on a ventilator.
> 
> Nobody's being rude, but you don't get to post your opinion then tell others they can't post theirs when it doesn't agree with yours, especially when those opposing viewpoints are coming from many years of experience and yours is coming only from emotion.
> 
> If a horse badly damages or kills you both of you will pay the ultimate price, and I for one would prefer not to see that happen.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The moderators have been keeping an eye on the replies to your posts and I can assure you that should there be bullying or nastiness then warnings would be issued and infractions given.

Daffy says it all. All people are trying to do is to educate you and explain that not all horses can be saved.

Think about this, euthanasia is harde on the owner than the animal. A difficult horse is better off dead then being past from pillar to post ending up heaven knows where.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Destiny, your apology is accepted. 

You know you have a lot to learn and although nothing will be better than hands on experience, next best thing is to learn from those who are experienced in whatever field of life.

Good on you for taking a more mature attitude and apologising, it takes a lot. I never thought of you as rude, just inexperienced with a misinformed point of view.


----------



## EquiiAlex (Sep 28, 2013)

Thank you  I reread my old post and I sounded like a brat and wish I hadn't posted that, I just made myself look like a fool. I read a lot on the site today and learned some. I especially read things about dangerous horses and everyone else was saying the same thing as on this thread.


Foxhunter said:


> Destiny, your apology is accepted.
> 
> You know you have a lot to learn and although nothing will be better than hands on experience, next best thing is to learn from those who are experienced in whatever field of life.
> 
> Good on you for taking a more mature attitude and apologising, it takes a lot. I never thought of you as rude, just inexperienced with a misinformed point of view.


----------



## GreyFeather (Sep 4, 2014)

Sorry that you have to make this decision Mythilus. I'm sure it can't be easy. I can see both sides of what has been said and it is very sad that your mare may have to be PTS when she is so young, and seems content on the ground. Such a shame that she doesn't get on with other horses - although life as a pasture puff may not have suited her regardless, if she's like some of the TBs I've worked with in the past!

I'm definitely with the camp that believes if you decide that enough's enough it would be the kinder thing to have her PTS yourself than send her to slaughter/re-home her. Unless she could be taken on by someone very experienced/responsible who would take as much thought in what to do with her if things didn't work out as you are, it seems too much of a risk to pass her on knowing someone else might get seriously hurt later.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Destinygirl said:


> Haven't heard of a single Disney movie about a horse.


How is that possible? You've certainly missed out, then. :wink:

_The Horse in the Gray Flannel Suit_

_Secretariat_

_The Young Black Stallion_

_Tonka_

_Miracle of the White Stallions_

These are just some of the Disney movies about horses. :thumbsup:


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Heavens, I remember going to see Sean Connery in a film about Leprachauns and Tonka was the second film - much better than the feature!


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Darby O'Gill and the Little People! I remember that one. Yeah, kinda corny.


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Foxhunter said:


> The moderators have been keeping an eye on the replies to your posts and I can assure you that should there be bullying or nastiness then warnings would be issued and infractions given.
> 
> Daffy says it all. All people are trying to do is to educate you and explain that not all horses can be saved.
> 
> Think about this, euthanasia is harde on the owner than the animal. A difficult horse is better off dead then being past from pillar to post ending up heaven knows where.


Sorry, I have not yet gotten past Duffy becoming Daffy……..:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> Sorry, I have not yet gotten past Duffy becoming Daffy……..:rofl::rofl::rofl:


 
I let it slide, no one gets it right :evil::evil:

Shows how much attention you lot pay to me :lol:

Quack?


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I never read it back - auto correct! 

*Speed* your rememberer is a lot better than mine!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Any chance this thread might get back on track?


----------



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Back on track now.

I put Roxie with my horses in the paddock this week since Saturday, as we opened the gate to the front-of-house paddock and Angel and Banjo would go round there to the fresh grass and Roxie started calling and calling for them. Interestingly, not peep out of any of them all weekend. Roxie did boss Banjo out of his dinner though, which is not acceptable as he is 24 and injured so him missing his dins is a big no-no. But as for grazing, the worse that happened was a warning kick in Angel's direction when Angel decided to get snarky about Rox being close to Banjo.

I have found a home for Roxie as a paddock pet/nanny for weanlings, and warned them she has been bad with other horses in the past, but that was why I put her in with mine this weekend anyway, because they asked if she might be suitable as a nanny, so I emailed them letting them know she was ok this weekend but reminding she did beat up other horses before.

They are going to trial her and see how she goes, so its a road trip this weekend hopefully. The lady who owned the property where I used to keep Roxie has offered a lease on a big sweet gelding of hers for me, as I'm stuck without a horse to ride at the moment, so that's a bonus, too.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Destinygirl said:


> Hey, I said I have 2 years experience, not that I _am_ experienced. I was stating a fact, that I had been riding for two years, not an opinion that I supposedly think that since I'd been riding for two years I am very experienced. Because in my opinion, someone isn't experienced with horses unless they have been working with them for 10+ years, I'm not even near that. I don't think I know everything, no one at the barn I board at knows everything, and no professional trainers know everything. I know that, and I'm not even close to being an experienced horse person and know I am still learning. I never claimed to be a good rider, good with horses, or experienced in any way. I stopped arguing a while ago, I respect your opinion so please respect mine and stop replying to my post and saying how inexperienced I am (because I already know this, I will not be experienced for a very long time). It's really starting to bother me because everyone has been saying the same thing to me -- that their horse had to be put down and they have been seeing other horses being put down because they were dangerous. Nobody else needs to make a point about dangerous horses being put down because 10 other people did already.


calm down, no one is meaning to be mean or anything, Relax. and don't worry about only having ridden for 2 years, everyone starts somewhere, just be switched on enough to catch the good information when it comes your way. Its just a part of life, horses are kinda like people, in many ways. generally they are a product of their upbringing, or training, and a bad horse, is as likely a result of bad training as a bad person being a result of a bad upbringing. However, some people are just plain bad, there's something not right in them, and they hurt other people even if they had a good upbringing. Some horses are the same, just plain bad. They might be rare, but they are out there. its just a fact of life.


----------



## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

I feel for ya, some of the injuries you mentioned I have myself (last 2 years back playing up from a prolapsed disc that was started off being thrown from a horse I was training 20 years ago, then getting thrown 6 months later in a saddle bronc ride) lower back injuries catch up with you.

Probably one of the nastiest horses I trained was straightened out by being tipped over and held down, like what saddlebag mentioned above, she wasn't so bad after that, but then I don't know if its the same kind of case with your horse, this one was pretty mean all the time and disrespectful. she never had her good days and would just blow up. After we tipped her over and kept her down till she gave up she came round and never played up much after that.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The initial pasture incidence, your mare was establishing her hierarchy with the old gelding. She doesn't know he's gelded. A mare rules a stallion, she leads the horses. The stallion's job is to guard and protect the herd. Once that is established everything settles down. If she is moved to new surroundings with other horses there's a good possibility she will do this again.
This mare sounds like she's gotten away with so many seemingly little things that's she's turned them into a huge pile of disrespect. It can be, giving a little nudge, pressing her face under your arm, stepping toward you when tacking up, refusing to have her feet picked, too many to list. A horse adds them up and one day everything falls apart. The horse now seems dangerous. Don't allow this horse to get away with anything. Use a knotted halter and if she comes into your space, back her up hard. Horses establish the hierarchy amongst themselves by making the other one move away. Altho there is the lead mare and stallion, there are a lot of dynamics going on in the herd as the pecking order shifts around. You need to establish yourself as the top of the order. As far as keeping her or moving her on, that's entirely your decision.


----------

