# It's ironic that horseback riding is now female-dominated.



## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

We have a stark divide in my country: horses are ridden by women in the cities and by men in the countryside, which is much more patriarchal. It is still sort of frowned upon by country folk for a women to ride - well, their women - they don’t seem to extend it city girls, we are cleared to ride. Strange.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I've been thinking about this, but not in as sexist of a way as you have put it. Your blanket generalizations are, in my opinion, demeaning to women.

You are making a sort of strange argument: (1) historically, horses were used as transportation, (2) transportation was mainly run by men, (3) therefore men were the ones doing the horsework.

You have forgotten that a large number of horses were used for farm work (driving, plowing) and that women did this work just as men did.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

ACinATX said:


> I've been thinking about this, but not in as sexist of a way as you have put it. Your blanket generalizations are, in my opinion, demeaning to women.
> 
> You are making a sort of strange argument: (1) historically, horses were used as transportation, (2) transportation was mainly run by men, (3) therefore men were the ones doing the horsework.
> 
> You have forgotten that a large number of horses were used for farm work (driving, plowing) and that women did this work just as men did.


Eh, I think we can be generous in interpretation as this is a written medium and a lot can be misunderstood in text - so, unless OP confirms that he was intentionally sexist, I’d go with that explanation.

It is a fact that very few women used to ride and work with horses. I don’t think there is anything sexist in stating that (I am a woman, for what it’s worth).

One of the reasons for it could well be that people simply didn’t have the time to teach girls to ride due to being busy surviving. It wasn’t a job requirement, so no time wasted of frivolous pursuits, except for the upper classes which had more women riding.

I think that it could also be interpreted as men being seen as “disposable” whereas women were always being spared the most dangerous work (not that they had it easy either). Even today, when most work doesn’t require physical strength, you see men almost exclusively doing the dangerous jobs. Oil rigs, soldiers, miners, high altitude work...none of them are dependent on physical strength (or shouldn’t be with modern technology) but are mostly done by men, with some exceptions.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

ACinATX said:


> I've been thinking about this, but not in as sexist of a way as you have put it. Your blanket generalizations are, in my opinion, demeaning to women.
> 
> You are making a sort of strange argument: (1) historically, horses were used as transportation, (2) transportation was mainly run by men, (3) therefore men were the ones doing the horsework.
> 
> You have forgotten that a large number of horses were used for farm work (driving, plowing) and that women did this work just as men did.


Western culture generally doesn't depict women's being behind the plow in entertainment, art and literature.

Agriculture, as opposed to transhumance/long-range livestock herding and hunter-gatherer societies, is more favorable to women, though, because of its domestic nature. Women like to nest as men like to roam.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Horsef said:


> Eh, I think we can be generous in interpretation as this is a written medium and a lot can be misunderstood in text - so, unless OP confirms that he was intentionally sexist, I’d go with that explanation.
> 
> It is a fact that very few women used to ride and work with horses. I don’t think there is anything sexist in stating that (I am a woman, for what it’s worth).
> 
> ...


Being a soldier in the field does require a lot of physical stamina with boots on the ground for fighting with hand-held weapons close up and personal. Often this also entails precious little sleep and adverse weather and terrain conditions. I was in the army for 7 years. If you have ever marched for 15 miles in sandy, hilly terrain with a full pack and a rifle in hand, you'd understand. With all the space-age technology, wars are still won with old-fashioned boots in the nasty mud.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Most, if not all, world explorers were men.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Horsef said:


> We have a stark divide in my country: horses are ridden by women in the cities and by men in the countryside, which is much more patriarchal. It is still sort of frowned upon by country folk for a women to ride - well, their women - they don’t seem to extend it city girls, we are cleared to ride. Strange.


Your country still probably regards the female sex as domestic and fragile while the male sex is adventurous and outdoors-like.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I think Jon is having fun yanking our chain.

From the thread about teaching a horse to lay down so he can load a deer to this???? Come on Jon.....


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

I have given up on the notion of hunting with horses (unless they are supplied to the client for transportation as part of the price paid for a deer guide offering special low-priced hunts to get rid of surplus does for land management) altogether. I've decided using horses to get venison otherwise would cost more money and be more trouble than I'm willing to spend or put up with. The guide I hire can worry about how to load my game bag on HIS company-owned pack horse should one ever be employed on any hunt I book. The guide usually does the skinning, gutting and quartering for the paying client anyway.

I thought it would be interesting to have a thread as to why American men and boys don't care much for horses anymore. I've heard guys say they hated horses and others say they make good dog food. It seems as the lust for GALLONS (of fossil fuels burned for vehicle use) has largely displaced the GALLOP (pun intended) in terms of the sheer lack of 21st century male enthusiasm for equines. Some men have told me horses are dangerous because one can lose control of them should they spook. Motor vehicles never spook. One guy told me he loved HORSEPOWER, not HORSES.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

jonbailey said:


> I have given up on the notion of hunting with horses (unless they are supplied to the client for transportation as part of the price paid for a deer guide offering special low-priced hunts to get rid of surplus does for land management) altogether. I've decided using horses to get venison otherwise would cost more money and be more trouble than I'm willing to spend or put up with. The guide I hire can worry about how to load my game bag on HIS company-owned pack horse should one ever be employed on any hunt I book. The guide usually does the skinning, gutting and quartering for the paying client anyway.
> 
> I thought it would be interesting to have a thread as to why American men and boys don't care much for horses anymore. I've heard guys say they hated horses and others say they make good dog food. It seems as the lust for GALLONS (of fossil fuels burned for vehicle use) has largely displaced the GALLOP (pun intended) in terms of the sheer lack of 21st century male enthusiasm for equines. Some men have told me horses are dangerous because one can lose control of them should they spook. Motor vehicles never spook. One guy told me he loved HORSEPOWER, not HORSES.


Seems very dependent on location. And vocation.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I actually agre with what Jon has said. 

Men are from Mars and women from Venus, we are very different in our make up. 

I found teaching boys totally different to teaching girls. 

Boys didn't really want to learn the finer parts of riding, they just wanted to get on and go. 

Boys didn't like the humiliation of falling off, especially in front of girls. A girl would (usually) forgive her pony and make some excuse for its bad behaviour, underneath a boy would want to punch the heck out of it but knew better. It was the pony's fault! 

Women were regarded as needing to be taken care of, the weaker sex. Risks were minimised for them. 

It wasn't until the late 1950s that women were allowed to compete in three day events, it was thought both to risky for them and, if they did fall they would cry. _Think they were proven wrong on this! _ A lot of top event riders are women. 

Strength does come into riding, this is why you do not get many successful jockeys that are women. 

Obviously there are exceptions as with many things. 

Women have played many leading roles in history, not as many as men but as said there are exceptions. 

Watch how young boys play together, it is all rough and tumble, challenges play fighting, bragging that one can do better than the other, girls are more likely to be interacting together and their play will be more towards the nurturing side. 

More women ride than men they can ride just as well as the men that's for sure and in many instances, better because they have a natural empathy for the horse. 

Men are generally less patient than women hence they would rather use a vehicle as it is faster and doesn't need as much care! 

My nephew, when about six, was stood holding his pony, he was asked if he loved his pony. He replied, "Yes I do but I love the tractor and ATV better."

He stopped riding by seven and only came back to it when about 14.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I think it's pretty simple. Women love animals. Both caring and nurturing animals and building a relationship with them. (What is more awesome than feeling like you are one with a beautiful, sensitive, powerful animal like the horse?) So horses are a natural fit. 

I think it the past, when men dominated horse culture, they were more of mode of transportation and women were stuck at home taking care of the family. That may be oversimplifying things, but I think in general that's the way it probably was.

There ARE guys out there that genuinely love horses. I've met a few. It really sort of puzzles me why there aren't more men that love horses out there, but I guess that's just how it is. I also think it isn't considered "macho" to show that you are an animal lover, so maybe that is part of it? For instance, I know some men who genuinely love cats, but you usually don't find that out until you get to know them better, in other words, they don't advertise it to the world. Maybe as a woman if you can find a guy that genuinely loves animals, you know you've found a good one!


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

trailhorserider said:


> I think it's pretty simple. Women love animals. Both caring and nurturing animals and building a relationship with them. (What is more awesome than feeling like you are one with a beautiful, sensitive, powerful animal like the horse?) So horses are a natural fit.
> 
> I think it the past, when men dominated horse culture, they were more of mode of transportation and women were stuck at home taking care of the family. That may be oversimplifying things, but I think in general that's the way it probably was.
> 
> There ARE guys out there that genuinely love horses. I've met a few. It really sort of puzzles me why there aren't more men that love horses out there, but I guess that's just how it is. I also think it isn't considered "macho" to show that you are an animal lover, so maybe that is part of it? For instance, I know some men who genuinely love cats, but you usually don't find that out until you get to know them better, in other words, they don't advertise it to the world. Maybe as a woman if you can find a guy that genuinely loves animals, you know you've found a good one!


It's OK for a man or boy to show love for his dog. Even so, the dog will often be expected to be well-trained and mind his master to the T. Many guys have little patience or tolerance for ill-behaved dogs. I like cats: only if they are good mousers and ratters as for being kept out in the barn.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I believe it is regional and depends on what discipline and what level. 
The higher levels of most western disciplines are dominated by men in the open levels. 
Coming from cowboy/ranching country perspective, just as many, or more, men ride than women.


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

Horseback riding isn't an activity dominated by women around the world. Around the world, it is still a mostly male activity. Even in countries like the USA, once one gets away from urban areas, or areas where public land to ride is limited, there're as many men riding as women. Where I see a difference, a female majority, is in urban areas and areas where there's little public trails out in the country. One difference I've noticed is that women are much more comfortable with the idea of stalling horses and riding in rings than men, which explains why if ones goes into a stable, most of the riders there will be females.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jonbailey said:


> Men on average travel many more miles worldwide than women. Men are largely nomadic: women are largely domestic.


Wow. I feel sorry for the women in your life and find your tone quite offensive. 

These are nothing but generalizations about gender roles that do not take into account other cultures. Gender is a social construct. Perpetuating these kinds of stereotypes is not a productive way of encouraging intelligent discussion. 

I am done participating in your threads.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Acadianartist said:


> Wow. I feel sorry for the women in your life and find your tone quite offensive.
> 
> These are nothing but generalizations about gender roles that do not take into account other cultures. Gender is a social construct. Perpetuating these kinds of stereotypes is not a productive way of encouraging intelligent discussion.
> 
> I am done participating in your threads.



It's your prerogative to be done with whatever. I have no women in my life. I'm celibate. 

My knowledge of transportation history, since the first of our species hopped upon the back of any animal for a ride or invented the roller (smooth round logs) to move a heavy load, comes from years of study. Man's very first conveyance, of course, was the human foot, or I should say a pair of feet. 

I would be willing to bet a crisp new $20 bill that the world total of men worldwide move a greater number of miles from point to point over a map than do the sum total of women worldwide annual. It's not misogyny: it's just raw statistics. I' sure women would have men squarely beat if one were to compare the number of babies born by each sex annually. 

It's fair to say more men than women travel on business trips worldwide and men commute much farther on average to and from work everyday. I'm not saying a woman is incapable of long-distance travel. My mother and her lady friend went to Mexico a lot and discovered the ancient ruins in the jungles there by a rented air-cooled Volkswagen over dirt trails. Not much for creature comforts. No man accompanied them. Stats just show men travel long distance more. *Travel* simply means being moved from one point to another over the map for any distance by any means. It doesn't simply mean taking a trip for pleasure or a holiday. You travel from your bedroom to the kitchen to get a cup of coffee.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm not seeing irony here. None at all. The changes , that of having more women riding than men in your area, are easily explained by social changes over the last 50 years. 

Women not building new machines and not exploring worlds , "back then", are also explained by the culture of the time, which absolutely disallowed many of those things to women. It's not necessarily part of their nature. 

Things change. You'll be fine. Go with the flow.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

> Travel simply means being moved from one point to another over the map for any distance by any means. It doesn't simply mean taking a trip for pleasure or a holiday. You travel from your bedroom to the kitchen to get a cup of coffee.


If you seriously believe this, you're delusional. I think you grossly misunderstand how many women are now breadwinners in the family and travel for work. I know far more women who travel for business than men, actually-- whether it's a longer daily commute or flying coast to coast. Methinks you need to broaden your horizons a bit and get out into the real, modern world.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

I really don't know. I've been a hermit for the most part since getting out of the army in 1995. Being a man, oddly, I personally hate long-distance travel. The hassle, the costs, the delays, the tiredness, the headaches. The rudeness of some people in the taxi, bus, motels and airline industries. The TSO jerks that poke and prod people at airports. The nastiness of Amtrak trains. I like Greyhound for relatively short trips, however. I like my car the best and for trips to be under 100 miles.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

SilverMaple said:


> If you seriously believe this, you're delusional. I think you grossly misunderstand how many women are now breadwinners in the family and travel for work. I know far more women who travel for business than men, actually-- whether it's a longer daily commute or flying coast to coast. Methinks you need to broaden your horizons a bit and get out into the real, modern world.


On my days it was the norm for a female to have a short career as by their twenties they would marry and have children. The man was the breadwinner, she stayed home raising the children. If she had a job it was usually a menial one that fitted in with the children's care. 

Times change, where once majority of families were content to rent their homes now all want to own and with tying themselves to a mortgage women started to resume careers. Children cared for by either a care service or other family members. 

With my cousins family, no children, he would travel further to commute daily, she does a lot of work from home BUT, she has to travel all over the world for work on a regular basis. 

Study nature and you will see that it is the female that leads the pack or herd. From what I have seen it is much the same in long lasting marriages. The female, using wiles, will plant an idea to hubby, then when he suggests it she agrees saying he has had a brilliant idea! 

Times have changed, not always for the better more often than not it is for material things rather than the good of the family.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Horses and who is riding them are very region, culture and discipline oriented. 

In my area of Texas you will see lots of both men and women riding horses. Men are represented by a good bit more in Rodeo and specifically Team Roping which is absolutely huge here and everywhere. The USTRC did an amazing job when it comes to getting lots of amateur level people to show up and compete seriously. Plenty of women rope too of course, overall I would say it is more male dominated.

I think there is also a lot to do with what guys find cool. Ranch Rodeo has a cool factor that other things you can do on a horse don't. Certainly better stories to tell at the bar still wearing your gooseneck spurs than you will get from Western Pleasure. 

I'll be the first to say it, sports like Reining are prohibitively expensive to get into competitively and pretty boring to watch unless you are looking at the finalists at a big show. At the non-pro level the sport is mostly women who are doing it almost exclusively just for fun.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Women have brain wiring that allows them to listen carefully to two conversations at the same time, or to read a book and listen attentively to a conversation at the same time. Most men can't do this at all or at least not very well.


There's a lot going on when riding a horse that a person needs to be attentive to. 



Since horses have segued to more recreational interactions, maybe it's more difficult for men to actually enjoy this activity with so much going on?


Just random early morning mental stuttering.........




*Will Rogers Quotes*

62 of 71

A man that don't love a Horse, there is something the matter with him. If he has no sympathy for the man that does love Horses, then there is something worse the matter with him.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> On my days it was the norm for a female to have a short career as by their twenties they would marry and have children. The man was the breadwinner, she stayed home raising the children. If she had a job it was usually a menial one that fitted in with the children's care.
> 
> Times change, where once majority of families were content to rent their homes now all want to own and with tying themselves to a mortgage women started to resume careers. Children cared for by either a care service or other family members.
> 
> Times have changed, not always for the better more often than not it is for material things rather than the good of the family.


In our area, both male and female work-- not for material things but for survival. Our state's minimum wage is $7.25/hour, and that's what most jobs pay. Those that pay more are getting scarce (factory/manufacturing jobs that paid $40/hour plus full benefits in 1998 have gone overseas, and been replaced with minimum wage jobs with no benefits), so people are forced to work multiple jobs and/or face a long commute (an hour or more) to get to a job that pays a living wage. Rentals are few and far between, and those that exist are dumps. Unless you want to live in a tiny 1-bedroom apartment, or a falling-down house with questionable heat and plumbing, you're going to have to buy. When we moved, we tried to rent for a year until we found an acreage/farm, but there wasn't anything even remotely decent, and NOTHING that allowed a pet. So we had to buy. Outside of cities in the US, rentals that are decent housing are few and far between, and usually reserved for low-income/government assistance/HUD renters. In our town of 1200 people, there are 8 rental units. One apartment building with six 1-bedroom units for low-income retirees, and 2 homes for rent-- both falling down dumps currently occupied by immigrant families saving every penny while working on the hog farms. We live in a working-class area; most people don't live extravagantly, or in luxury. Families have both parents working to pay for the roof over their heads, a vehicle to get to work (no public transport, jobs are too far away to walk) and keep food on the table, pay for medications, and maybe put a little by in savings. I don't think that's 'working for material things rather than the good of the family.'


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

Acadianartist said:


> Wow. I feel sorry for the women in your life and find your tone quite offensive.
> 
> These are nothing but generalizations about gender roles that do not take into account other cultures. Gender is a social construct. Perpetuating these kinds of stereotypes is not a productive way of encouraging intelligent discussion.
> 
> I am done participating in your threads.





Men don't like strong women, they feel intimidated. If a man is intimidated by me his is no real man in my eyes. All those men claiming to be alphas are in fact insecure and that's sad. A true alpha doesn't feel the need to look down upon others or waste time bothering other people.  



Furthermore all men came from a womb.


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## Jolien (Aug 19, 2019)

If a man or a woman tells me that he/she doesn't like animals or hate horses they can go to the moon and back. If you don't love animals we will never be able to become partners or even friends. There is something inherent to people that really love animals, understand them and care for them. People that don't or only 'use them' are so blind and devoid that they don't even see or understand the parts of interaction they are missing.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Empathy and understanding for people and ideas that are different from our own is a rare quality.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

SilverMaple said:


> In our area, both male and female work-- not for material things but for survival. .'


I understand this as it is much the same here. 

There are properties to rent and majority of them are in good order. However there is no limit on what a Landlord can charge. 

On the edge of town, with no parking and non on the street by the property because the road is very narrow, a 4 bedroom rental commands £850 pcm. In the street next to mine a 1 bedroom flat is £575.

One advertised for shared accommodation, living room and kitchen, is £575 pcm. 

If people are paying such high rents it is nigh impossible for them to get a foot on the housing ladder. More often than not the rental being paid is less than a mortgage would be but, they have to put down a fairly large deposit which they cannot save for because of the high rent. 

I own a property that I rent out. It is 2 bedroom with a garden. I charge £500 pcm and that only went up last June. I have a good tenant in there for some 25 years, if there is a problem she calls me, she usually calls in a tradesman she knows, the work gets done, she pays at the time, gets me a receipt and knocks it off the next months rent. 

I could be getting £700+ but she couldn't afford that and I am happy with what I get. A rental raise would mostly benefit the taxman not me!


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Foxhunter said:


> On my days it was the norm for a female to have a short career as by their twenties they would marry and have children. The man was the breadwinner, she stayed home raising the children. If she had a job it was usually a menial one that fitted in with the children's care.
> 
> Times change, where once majority of families were content to rent their homes now all want to own and with tying themselves to a mortgage women started to resume careers. Children cared for by either a care service or other family members.
> 
> ...



This is NOT the case with highest animal species: the most intelligent ones with meat in their diets but having a "queen bee" in the group is for the inferior plant-only eaters.

The male sex is king among the wolf, the primates (man, gorilla, baboon), the lion, the tiger, the leopard, the cougar, the bear and the fox. An alpha male leads a wolf pack on a hunt. A number of lionesses surround a maned king in a lion pride. This is true for apex predators, those at the top of the food chain. Man is the top apex predator and ruler of this world: the King of the Animal Kingdom and of all living things.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

jonbailey said:


> This is NOT the case with highest animal species: the most intelligent ones with meat in their diets but having a "queen bee" in the group is for the inferior plant-only eaters.
> 
> The male sex is king among the wolf, the primates (man, gorilla, baboon), the lion, the tiger, the leopard, the cougar, the bear and the fox. An alpha male leads a wolf pack on a hunt. A number of lionesses surround a maned king in a lion pride. This is true for apex predators, those at the top of the food chain. Man is the top apex predator and ruler of this world: the King of the Animal Kingdom and of all living things.


This absolutely strengthens my argument over the female ruling without the male realising it! 

It might well be that the male of carnivores goes around showing off his superior strength and size but, it is the lioness that decides when they are going to hunt, and the females that make the kill generally speaking. The male then moves in with his domination of strength and eats the best bits. 

Much the same with primates. The females allow the top male to appear he is the boss but they _know_ otherwise!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

jonbailey said:


> It's OK for a man or boy to show love for his dog. Even so, the dog will often be expected to be well-trained and mind his master to the T. Many guys have little patience or tolerance for ill-behaved dogs. I like cats: only if they are good mousers and ratters as for being kept out in the barn.


Ha, I'm female and I can't stand when dogs are out of control. But, I don't think that I hate that because I can't control them, I hate it because I don't want to see them get hurt. I guess that's where the girl thing comes in. lol


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

jonbailey said:


> Western culture generally doesn't depict women's being behind the plow in entertainment, art and literature.
> 
> Agriculture, as opposed to transhumance/long-range livestock herding and hunter-gatherer societies, is more favorable to women, though, because of its domestic nature. Women like to nest as men like to roam.


Just keep in mind, there's a helluva LOT of western culture fiction gets entirely wrong... which... I guess is par for the course since it's... well. Complete Fiction. 

In defense of the umbrella point you're making though: At least in Oklahoma and Texas, from my own observations and those of my husband - Women did NOT haul horses and camp with horses, and haul them around for riding in such great numbers as are seen now... unless they were rodeo competitors. Barrel Racers and Mom's hauling kids to playdays and Granmas hauling grandbabies to play days has always been a thing too - but NOT in as great of numbers as we see now.

That said: At a ranch rodeo or rodeo-rodeo, you will see an ish ton more men there on horses than women, but that's changing. I'm seeing more female ropers and bulldoggers than I have in the past, there's more at every rodeo I go to, and there's more girls at the junior levels than ever before - and they're roping, pole bending, barrel racing, etc.

I can also relate a story from about a month ago. I haul solo to go camp with the horses. I meet other women there, wherever there is. On my way to a new place we'd never been, I stopped at the intersection of two Oklahoma highways. There was a very senior gentleman in a 1 ton feed truck that went by - I had to wait on him to pull out. He was hanging a HUGE THUMBS UP out the window, and the the biggest grin split his leather, tanned face. I waved and gave him a thumbs up back. I was telling T about it and she was just cackling. Her 9 year old daughter asked why he did that, and why it was funny. 

T explained she was guessing, as was I, that back in his day, the majority of women didn't haul their own horses or do as much with horses without men there with them, that times are changing and women are becoming the majority of horsemen now, we're not content to wait around on our men to help us haul and go camping, and the gentleman that waved was maybe showing his enthusiastic support for a woman, hauling horses solo, on the backways of Oklahoma. 



My husband and I, both born in the 70s, have talked about this as well. Until the last 10 years, we cannot recall seeing as many women, hauling solo, going to rodeos solo, or going trailriding with other groups of solo hauling women. You just didn't see women, without men doing the hauling/driving, or being present until the last ten years... with the exception of barrel racers, moms & granmas hauling kids to playdays and youth rodeos.


Now, let's go further back. Way back. Horse and Buggy days - women did pretty much everything men do. Why? Because the survival of the family absolutely depended on it. There wasn't room on the American Frontier for a whole of lot of Male Roles and Female Roles. There wasn't as much of it even in the 20s and 30s... at least not to the extent written fiction and Hollywood would have you believe. That's more of a 1950s and 1960s portrayal (Think Gunsmoke, Rawhide, John Wayne movies). Women were the damsels in distress (True Grit being an exception), the rancher's wives, the farmer's wives, the church going righteous and pure sorts relegated to washing laundry and cooking.

In truth, they were often in charge of home defense, taking care of the livestock, plowing, driving the buggy teams, and many other horse or cattle related chores necessary for the survival and well being of the family. 

*Caveat:*I'm talking about pioneer women and those who came west seeking the more liberal mindset of the American Old West. The idea that women in the old west were to be guarded and treated like wilting flowers and that they didn't do 'man jobs' especially with equines, is a _*myth*_.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

No Life for a Lady (Women of the West)


A Lady's Life in the Rocky Mountains (3 months IIRC, by an English lady visiting Colorado)


Days on the Road: Crossing the Plains in 1865

The Laura Ingalls Wilder books offer a sanitized but reasonably accurate look at life then. Pioneer Girl: The Annotated Autobiography covers things with more reality.


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

As someone is in a grey area concerning gender, there's a lot of things said in this thread that are beyond dated, tribal/ animalistic thinking. We are an intelligent species able to break through typical roles seen rigidly in other animals. All to say things are not black and white and are different depending on geography (also in general). 
We can debate this till we're old. So i'll not comment on those parts.

Anyway, in my experience females do not dominate the horse world but you're most likely to encounter them at show barns and typically english riding disciplines.

Somewhat related.. As far as greater access to horses..idk they're still a luxury and out of reach for most to even think about continuous lessons. Especially where I live, it's very ripe with show barns.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW:



bsms said:


> ...From my hike with my youngest [daughter] on 1 January in Saguaro National Park (East) - the Rincon Mountains:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This 60+ male sees no value in male versus female & riding or much of anything else. I suppose we could debate mare vs gelding. I prefer mares but admire my gelding so...:shrug:


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

jonbailey said:


> I thought it would be interesting to have a thread as to why American men and boys don't care much for horses anymore. I've heard guys say they hated horses and others say they make good dog food. It seems as the lust for GALLONS (of fossil fuels burned for vehicle use) has largely displaced the GALLOP (pun intended) in terms of the sheer lack of 21st century male enthusiasm for equines. Some men have told me horses are dangerous because one can lose control of them should they spook. Motor vehicles never spook. One guy told me he loved HORSEPOWER, not HORSES.


Odd generalization since certain areas of the equine world are dominated by men who have dedicated their lives to the love of horses.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

jgnmoose said:


> Odd generalization since certain areas of the equine world are dominated by men who have dedicated their lives to the love of horses.



On consideration... IDK about out in Lawton OK, but here in Atoka, OK, there's just as many men who ride and ride almost daily, as women. The thing is, that's their JOB. They ranch rodeo and do pasture 'ropings' and small invitation only ropings on private property for fun.


They aren't highly visible to the untrained eye. But they're out there and in greater numbers than I think OP realizes, which is odd, since OP IS from Oklahoma.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> They aren't highly visible to the untrained eye. But they're out there and in greater numbers than I think OP realizes, which is odd, since OP IS from Oklahoma.


This song says it well!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

LeDoux IS the man. The. man.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

This thread is confusing me. I'm not sure what the point is? Is OP feeling disgruntled because from his perception there are too many women riding horses in present day? Where as, (from his point of view), they should be at home doing domestic work? 

And the comment about Man being King?? I don't see how this is relevant. At all.

At any rate, in my area I do see more women riding. But I'm sure if I expanded my circle it would be different. I take lessons and there isn't a single male that takes lessons at this barn. I have my own opinions on why this is and they are as follows: Women are more willing to try something they either haven't had the opportunity to, or had to give up. Women are more willing to be open minded about learning different things, and are more willing to take advise from others. 

This is merely a generalization, but most of the men in my life will not go outside of their comfort zone. And they definitely do not like being told what to do. In fact, many of them I could never imagine taking lessons b/c they just wouldn't have the ability to listen to an instructor. 

Now, this is just my generalization based on where I live and my current situation. I know it is not fair to paint everyone with one brush. 

I think in a lot of cases, men considered the horse a tool to get a job done. Now that the horse is not necessarily needed (as in for transportation, war, farming), then what is the point? 

Just my 2 cents.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

trailhorserider said:


> I think it's pretty simple. Women love animals. Both caring and nurturing animals and building a relationship with them. (What is more awesome than feeling like you are one with a beautiful, sensitive, powerful animal like the horse?) So horses are a natural fit.
> 
> I think it the past, when men dominated horse culture, they were more of mode of transportation and women were stuck at home taking care of the family. That may be oversimplifying things, but I think in general that's the way it probably was.
> 
> There ARE guys out there that genuinely love horses. I've met a few. It really sort of puzzles me why there aren't more men that love horses out there, but I guess that's just how it is. I also think it isn't considered "macho" to show that you are an animal lover, so maybe that is part of it? For instance, I know some men who genuinely love cats, but you usually don't find that out until you get to know them better, in other words, they don't advertise it to the world. Maybe as a woman if you can find a guy that genuinely loves animals, you know you've found a good one!



I know many, many, macho ropers that will freely admit they were utterly shattered when their lifelong best friend and roping horse died. Most of those guys had the same horse from the age of 10 (The roper was a boy when he got the horse) until their mid-30s when the horse finally died of old age. I know one that said he'll never find another horse that meant what his last one did to him. I think they just don't wear their hearts on their sleeves and as you said, you won't know it until you get to know them.



I know MANY a roper and ranch worker that will absolutely beat someone into pudding for disparaging their horse. I know one guy that was drunk and blathering at a roping, talking down my husband's best friend's roping horse, a mare named Gray Momma. 


Another friend, while said roping friend was doing his thing and backing into the box, told the drunk if he said one more word about the mare, he was going to have to apologize to said mare, call her by name, look her in the eyes, and sincerely apologize... then kiss her.


Oh yeah? Or what?


Or I'll turn you into a smear in the gravel, our friend said.


Roper Friend (he who gave us The Old Man) makes his run, comes back... this drunk guy squares up with Roper's mare, looks her in the eyes, apologizes. Friend who threatened the drunk says: Nahp... nah... that's NOT what I told you you're gonna do... is it? And I want to hear you say it! Don't be shy about it!



Drunk guy growls at Threatening Friend, and to the confusion of the Roper Friend still in the saddle, Drunk squares up again, looks her in the eyes and most sincerely apologizes to Gray Momma: Gray Momma, I'm sorry, so, so sorry, I talked bad about you.... **MWAH** kisses her on the nose.


Roper friend was SO very confused. But moral of the story is... you don't disparage a roper's horse, especially a ranch roper. Those horses are hog hunters by night, money makers in the evening, and a co-worker by day... and some of these guys have the same horse in their lives from the time the horse is 3 or 4 years old... until he or she has to say goodbye and crosses that final bridge. These guys won't just come out and tell you how much they care about the horses they ride. They aren't showy. They won't roll up to a rodeo with a brand new truck and massive $150,000.00 trailer. These guys are in a half-top or canvas top stock trailer. It's probably going to be pulled by a 1 ton feed truck with a feed bin on the back and it's going to be beat to hades and gone, caked in mud and dust. Their horses are all been there, done that, tried and true reliable athletes... this is their day to day job and they're not just co-workers with their horses, that horse is family.'


They're out there... OP just doesn't have contact with that kind of lifestyle and you won't see them on tv. They really just aren't visible, as I mentioned earlier and as Chris LeDoux sang about.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

cbar;1970814991
I think in a lot of cases said:


> One of the livliest conversations I ever participated in was during a spring work with nine ranches involved.
> 
> All raised and/or trained and competed with their horses. The horses were an additional source of income.
> 
> ...


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

PS. LOL when my husband asked our Threatening Friend if Roper Friend's horse is a good roping horse, our Threatening Friend without pause or missing a beat said: Nah. *shook his head*....but you don't run down a man's horse.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

I'm a bit confused as well, but I'll have a go!

It’s generalising to say that horses were almost exclusively male dominated, while women sat at home looking after the family. 

Most hunter-gatherer societies were nomadic, when the food supply was exhausted, they moved on as a group. Women would’ve used whatever means of transport was available to them, including riding. 

These societies were generally more equal, with some women holding great status. It wasn’t until the advent of agriculture and settlements that the balance of power shifted away from women to men. Resources had to be defended and expanded, which required muscle power. 

While horses would’ve been an important weapon and status symbol for these warriors, not all of them were male. The female warriors of the Eurasian Steppes, c450 BC, rode into battle on horses. 

The remains of a young female Siberian warrior was unearthed in the Altai Mountains; she was buried with nine horses, c500 BC. They rode until they married and afterwards, only if they were required to travel. 

There’s a Graeco-Persian relief from Bithynia, showing a procession of men and women on horses, c 500 AD. 

Or, the female polo players of the T’ang Dynasty, China, often depicted in ceramic statues. Granted, riding horses was limited to a short period in the middle of the Dynasty and they only played against approved teams. 

There’s the Hilton of Cadboll, Pictish slab in Easter Ross, Scotland, showing a lady riding side-saddle, c 800 AD

Two Viking women, one younger than the other, buried with thirteen horses and a wagon, c 800 AD. No weapons were found with the other artefacts. It suggests that horses were an important part of their lives.

The Middle Ages changed women’s roles. Riding with long skirts was easier if you sat sidesaddle, and it was seen as a way to protect women’s modesty. While it made many ‘passengers’ on their horses, other women took control whether it was astride or sidesaddle. 

‘_Females were numbered among them, riding horseback in the manner of men, not on coverlets sidesaddle but unashamedly astride, and bearing lances and weapons as men do; dressed in masculine garb_’ Annals of Nicetas Choniates, 1150-1213

‘_I wonder how men are so presumptuous to think they can ride as horse-men, because they can ride forward from Barnet to London, which everybody can do; and I have seen women ride astride as well as they_’ A New Method and Extraordinary Invention to dress Horses, And work them according to Nature, 1657

_‘Perhaps the greatest change that has come over the hunting field in my time is the enormous increase of lady riders … the number of ladies must have doubled_’ Times 1908

Or the hundreds of women who did their bit in the Land Army during the First World War. They replaced all of the male grooms in yards and looked after the horses going to war. 

‘_There are three large remount Depots, under the War Office, which are unique in this, that for the first time in the history of the British Army, not one man is on any of the staff, and that all the work of attending to the horses is being done by gentlewomen.” _Time 1915

They showed that they could do the work and laid the foundation for future competitive riders.

Not forgetting the women in the Land Army who worked with the half-a-million farm horses during the Second World War.

Horses were never exclusively male. Just like men, women had to travel and go to war in one form or another. 

I agree with others that men and some women may have seen them as a tool though. Now horses have been replaced by cars and trucks as the best form of transport, which men seem to find more interesting. 

Horse riding is almost considered a girls' sport in my area. The majority of riders and horse lovers i know are female. Even when i was learning, the student instructors and grooms were mostly female. 

I'd say that most men have moved on to other, faster, interests and women are free to ride when and how we want.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Caledonian said:


> I'm a bit confused as well, but I'll have a go!
> 
> It’s generalising to say that horses were almost exclusively male dominated, while women sat at home looking after the family.
> 
> ...


I have had all my history of horses and transportation lessons from textbooks, novels, TV and Hollywood. The women of the American frontier were largely prostitutes. This is what cowboy pictures often show. Kim Darby was a fly in the ointment but she couldn't fire a gun to save her own soul. My treatise thread is more about the thousands of years of transportation development and the use of man of horses. Women have had limited involvement with horses and most other transportation over thousands of years. The 20th century brought in women's voting as that was in itself revolutionary at the time. My human geography teacher in college taught us that the advent of agriculture to the human species was to the delight of women. It meant women for the first time in human history could settle down and stay in a home community. Women hated a nomadic life as in hunter-gatherer societies and transhumance/livestock herding cultures which were harsh and devoid of comforts.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

jonbailey said:


> I have had all my history of horses and transportation lessons from textbooks, novels, TV and Hollywood. The women of the American frontier were largely prostitutes. This is what cowboy pictures often show. Kim Darby was a fly in the ointment but she couldn't fire a gun to save her own soul.



So, now I can't take you seriously. I'm starting to think you are indeed pulling our legs.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> So, now I can't take you seriously. I'm starting to think you are indeed pulling our legs.


I saw _Unforgiven_, 1992, Clint Eastwood/Gene Hackman/Morgan Freeman. 

The woman's horse in that film were dainty little ponies.

In _Two Mules for Sister Sarah_, 1970, Clint Eastwood, the "nun" (Shirley MacLaine, we all know what she really was under the habit) was riding a cute little burro in the desert to the character of Eastwood's surprise. No provisions, no canteen, for a small female out there? Full of Mexican bandits, buzzards, coyotes, cougars, rattlesnakes and ungodly heat. 


I saw _Westworld_, 1973, Euell Brenner. The girls of the night were robots
and so were the horses.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Even with your edit after I commented, still can't take you seriously at this point. The gross generalizations about women in the U.S. past or even regarding ancient nomadic life are just beyond the pale, with zero historical accuracy, and after 5 pages of discussion, we're back at square one and I'm still not sure what point you're wanting to discuss here.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Even with your edit after I commented, still can't take you seriously at this point. The gross generalizations about women in the U.S. past or even regarding ancient nomadic life are just beyond the pale, with zero historical accuracy, and after 5 pages of discussion, we're back at square one and I'm still *not sure what point you're wanting to discuss here*.


Well, keep on guessing, sister. 

If you can't take this seriously, you might just then have a good laugh about it. 

Back to square one, your move.


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

The headline to the post says, "IT IS IRONIC THAT HORSEBACK RIDING IS NOW FEMALE-DOMINATED."
The definition of 'ironic' is, "using words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning." https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ironic?s=t


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Generalizations of genders doesn't offend me at all, being female and all..lol.

I am disturbed by thinking movies are accurate depictions of history. *eyeroll*


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Generalizations of genders doesn't offend me at all, being female and all..lol.
> 
> I am disturbed by thinking movies are accurate depictions of history. *eyeroll*


Same here on both points.

But getting one's notion about the West from movies is similar to how people used to from the "dime novels." 

Or even now, what shapes peoples' notions about the US from violent movies that are shown around the world.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

@COWCHICK77 nailed it. It is highly location dependent. Out here where men still work on horseback for many different things, a lot of guys ride, but not many ride for pleasure who also ride for work. As far as loving horses goes I spent 8 years in the infantry in the Marine Corps and I have seen a lot of violent death and injury but I am going to cry like a little kid when my Dollar horse passes on. He is 23 this year so it is probably not that many years off sadly.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Generalizations of genders doesn't offend me at all, being female and all..lol.
> 
> *I am disturbed by thinking movies are accurate depictions of history. *eyeroll**



This. This this this.


I'm not offended mind you, it's more that this has become a long, confusing and circular discussion and it always seems to come back to Women have Historically been Inferior to Men + Horses = Irony.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

jonbailey said:


> I saw _Unforgiven_, 1992, Clint Eastwood/Gene Hackman/Morgan Freeman.
> 
> The woman's horse in that film were dainty little ponies.
> 
> ...



Yes, let's use Hollywood to educate us a society. Great idea. 

I am not easily offended as I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, when someone is using movies and TV as a basis for how things were, or should be? Get a life.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

cbar said:


> Yes, let's use Hollywood to educate us a society. Great idea.



Unfortunately, I'm afraid that has already occurred to a large and troubling extent.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

Hondo said:


> Unfortunately, I'm afraid that has already occurred to a large and troubling extent.


Yes, this is worrisome, and makes me wonder what the world will become - you know, seeing as how some folks in the younger generations seem to think eating Tide pods is a good idea.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

My goodness! I had to search for tide pods as I had no idea. Does Hollywood teach kids to eat those now?


I'm afraid I'm a little dated. I can clearly recall my grandmother, who lived on the same farm as I, making lye soap with a large black kettle over a fire outside.


We had a crank phone also.


But I did get a little Hollywood even then on Saturday afternoons on days we went to town. Box of cracker jacks and watch Roy Rogers, Tom Mix or who ever catch the bad guys.


I do use tide but no pods. Like the smell of unscented Tide but nothing comes close to the smell of homemade lye soap.


Never heard of any kids eating lye soap......well, unless they said a bad word.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

As long as we are talking Hollywood...
A number of years ago there was a beer commercial for Henry Weinhard Brewing. Several Old West dusty old guys were sitting around on a dusty old porch. One of them spoke up (John Huston, I believe) and started out by saying something like, "In the future only little girls will ride horses..." As a side comment, it was a well done commercial in black and white, for a pretty good beer, I might add.

Mr. Huston's prophecy seems mostly true. 4-H clubs seem to be dominated by girls. At many shows there are more girls and women on horses than men. Some show classes have more men but many of them are professional as trainers and riders. One activity that seems to have a number of men is trail riding. Over the years I have seen lots of guys in horse camps. Are wives and girlfriends the driving force there? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the guys just like being out in the mountains and sitting on a good horse is a pretty good way to do it!


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> We had a crank phone also.



@Hondo, this can be your laugh for the day- listen with the sound on for maximum amusement :rofl:


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Haw haw! I saw that sometime ago and have related it to several people since. Gotta give the kids a thumbs up for tackling it.


Our number was two long cranks and one short. I'm thinking the kids might have had to resorted to an internet search to figure that one out.


PS: the length of a long and short depended on the mood or whatever of the cranker. But it usually didn't matter as all or at least most phones were picked when a dial was made. Sometimes before the dial was completed.


"Ila, hang up your phone! I'm talking to California and my batteries are low..........click"


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Dustbunny said:


> As long as we are talking Hollywood...
> A number of years ago there was a beer commercial for Henry Weinhard Brewing. Several Old West dusty old guys were sitting around on a dusty old porch. One of them spoke up (John Huston, I believe) and started out by saying something like, "In the future only little girls will ride horses..." As a side comment, it was a well done commercial in black and white, for a pretty good beer, I might add.
> 
> Mr. Huston's prophecy seems mostly true. 4-H clubs seem to be dominated by girls. At many shows there are more girls and women on horses than men. Some show classes have more men but many of them are professional as trainers and riders. One activity that seems to have a number of men is trail riding. Over the years I have seen lots of guys in horse camps. Are wives and girlfriends the driving force there? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the guys just like being out in the mountains and sitting on a good horse is a pretty good way to do it!



Back in 2001, summer, I was in Riggins, Idaho. There were a bunch of cowboys that came down off a hillside trail on horses. 
Boys in America still ride horses as long as they are the "cow" type of boys or they are big-game wilderness hunters. 

For a *man*, a horse is still a cow-punching machine or a hunting vehicle in places an ATV won't cut it.
A horse is no longer a cute barnyard pet for an American male as it was with little farm boy, Timmy Martin, on old* Lassie* episodes.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

@jonbailey... You don't know any trail riders do you? How many ropers do you know? Cutters? Sorters? Penners? Reiners? How many actual horsemen have you met? You supposedly live in Lawton, OK - horsemen can't be that hard to find. Lawton and it's surrounding area is not devoid of horses and riders. Quite the opposite.



You're not understanding what I've been trying to tell you - horses are NOT just a vehicle for these guys (Though yes, there are men AND WOMEN who DO treat their horses like machines) and there are plenty of guys that have a deep and emotional relationship with their horses. The ONLY ones I've ever experienced that had to seem macho about it were horrible horsemen. They put their own ego and pride before the well being of their horse, often with disastrous results. Those kind of guys are not taken seriously in the circles I've traveled in. They're intensely disliked by other actual horsemen and women... and by their own horse, to be frank.



You seem unable.... or perhaps willfully unable... to separate Hollywood fiction from reality and actual history. I think that's the biggest frustration in trying to have this conversation.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> @jonbailey... You don't know any trail riders do you? How many ropers do you know? Cutters? Sorters? Penners? Reiners? How many actual horsemen have you met? You supposedly live in Lawton, OK - horsemen can't be that hard to find. Lawton and it's surrounding area is not devoid of horses and riders. Quite the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I now live in town in Lawton. The only horses I've seen near here were on the Fort Sill army post. I've driven to Oklahoma City and have seen cows, horses and other livestock along the way from the highway. I don't know any livestock owners in Oklahoma personally and I don't know any horse people personally anywhere. 

I've read factual hunting books and have seen factual hunting videos so I know horses are still used by North American wilderness hunters for big game like deer, elk and moose. I know cowboys still use horses to work cattle and sheep-herders use them for sheep work and the Amish use them extensively for farm work and transportation. I never personally met any man affectionate about a horse.

I do understand most American men (with a few exceptions) who use horses are likely to use them for something productive as herding livestock or getting wild game and not for pleasure. I don't believe most cowboys and hunters abuse their horses. I saw a YouTube video once where an Amish farmer was beating his overworked horse to make him get up and this is flat-out cruelty to animals indeed.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

jonbailey said:


> I now live in town in Lawton. The only horses I've seen near here were on the Fort Sill army post. I've driven to Oklahoma City and have seen cows, horses and other livestock along the way from the highway. I don't know any livestock owners in Oklahoma personally and I don't know any horse people personally anywhere.
> 
> I've read factual hunting books and have seen factual hunting videos so I know horses are still used by North American wilderness hunters for big game like deer, elk and moose. I know cowboys still use horses to work cattle and sheep-herders use them for sheep work and the Amish use them extensively for farm work and transportation. I never personally met any man affectionate about a horse.
> 
> *I do understand most American men (with a few exceptions) who use horses are likely to use them for something productive as herding livestock or getting wild game and not for pleasure.*



You are incorrect on this. Roping, cutting, reining, penning, sorting, trail riding - are all done for pleasure and all but the trail riding (of those things I listed) is done predominately by men. Privately ran jack pot ropings, cuttings, sortings, etc, are incredibly common and usually by invitation only. You just don't know it because there aren't books written about it, no movies about it.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

jonbailey said:


> I never personally met any man affectionate about a horse. I do understand most American men (with a few exceptions) who use horses are likely to use them for something productive as herding livestock or getting wild game and not for pleasure.





jonbailey said:


> For a *man*, a horse is still a cow-punching machine or a hunting vehicle in places an ATV won't cut it.



I live in VT. There is no big game hunting here. There are dairy cows living on pasture, not the range. And yet, there are also an abundance of world-class, male endurance and event riders who live here in the summers with their horses before decamping for SC and FL for the winters. If you imagine those guys are riding thousands of miles a year with their horses without finding pleasure in it or not enjoying their time with the horses, that seems really bizarre. Adrenaline junkies, maybe. But also great horsemen with a "horse first" mentality.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> You are incorrect on this. Roping, cutting, reining, penning, sorting, trail riding - are all done for pleasure and all but the trail riding (of those things I listed) is done predominately by men. Privately ran jack pot ropings, cuttings, sortings, etc, are incredibly common and usually by invitation only. You just don't know it because there aren't books written about it, no movies about it.


A lot of those words up there I'm not familiar with. I'm not versed in horse-speak.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jonbailey said:


> ...I never personally met any man affectionate about a horse....


If you are ever in Arizona, stop on by! Retired military in my 60s. Just don't mess with my horse...


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## 281187 (Sep 19, 2019)

jonbailey said:


> I never personally met any man affectionate about a horse.


*And?*

Your personal anecdotes don't equal reality for everybody, just because _you've_ never personally met a man with an emotional connection to his horse or even been affectionate with one doesn't mean that all men everywhere are emotionless robots who see their horses or just horses in general as means to the end and nothing more. 


I can assure you, I personally have met a fair number of men (And boys!) who enjoyed riding or working with horses and didn't hesitate to love on them. I used to be both a volunteer and a rider at a therapeutic riding stable. We had riders and volunteers of all genders and I never noticed the men or boys act anything but happy to see the horses, delighted to interact with them, excited to ride them/help out in a lesson and grateful to give them a scratch or a pat or a treat before they had to leave.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

jonbailey said:


> A lot of those words up there I'm not familiar with. I'm not versed in horse-speak.



Then you need to listen to and process what we're telling you - because we are. All those things I listed are hobbies that men do with their horses and certainly have little to do with 'work'. Those events have roots in ranch work, but are no longer day to day 'work'. They're for fun.


I know a cutter that once was a roper - he just lights up if you ask him about his horse. He can talk for hours about his horse and why he went into cutting horses - because of the thrill of the ride and how much more time he gets to spend on and with his horse.

I know a TON of trail riders because that's what I do in my spare time, that are men. They ride horses and mules and they're not there because they have to be. They love the animals and treat them as companions and partners, not machines.


I know many teenaged boys that ride for the fun of it, for the YEHAW of it and for the joy of being with their horse and together as a group of boys on horses. They're some of the most fun people to ride with.


Your preconceived notions are your own worst enemy in this conversation. If you genuinely want to learn, and aren't being deliberately obtuse, please set aside fiction and listen to people with boots on the ground... or in this case, in the stirrups.


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## The Humble Horseman (Dec 5, 2018)

jonbailey said:


> I never personally met any man affectionate about a horse.


I've hesitated to chime in on this thread because my 2 cents could quickly turn into about $10 worth of my thoughts, but I can quickly and honestly say that I'm more affectionate and empathetic to my horses than most of the humans in my life, and this is coming from a man that is not generally regarded as being indifferent to the plights of others.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

bsms said:


> If you are ever in Arizona, stop on by! Retired military in my 60s. Just don't mess with my horse...


I don't dare mess with any man's horse. Men got hanged in the old west for stealing horses. A man was nowhere in the boonies without his horse. Horses meant more to men than women in the old west so my grandpa once told me. :cowboy:


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I was raised about 6 miles from Missouri where they say not to believe anything you read and only half of what you see.


Historians are often arguing over what is factual or not.


I just took out a mortgage that all but wiped out my discretionary spending. The mortgage was made solely for my horse. Otherwise I would never have entered into it.


I love my dogs. The last one I lost was more painful than any family member I've ever lost.


If there was an emergency and I could only save one animal, by reflex, not thought, I know I'd head straight for Hondo.


He means more to me than any human or animal I've ever encountered.


Maybe I'm a freak, but where I camped on a large ranch for 5 years, there were around 300 riders made an annual ride to the ranch. All male. In fact it is billed as the longest running all male ride in the U.S. Next year is, I believe, the 70th.


I got to know a few of those guy. Persuades me I may not be a freak. If so, I've got ample company.


Good thread. You should be learning a things you could never have learned living in the city.


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

I love my dogs and horses as much as I loved my parents. I have shed many tears when they've passed away. And I'll admit it, I have tons more patience with animals than I do with people, or machines. If one of my dogs is snoring, I think it's cute. When a person snores, I think it's annoying. There you have it.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

Hondo said:


> If there was an emergency and I could only save one animal, by reflex, not thought, I know I'd head straight for Hondo.


If I had to save just one of my animals I'd fight the guy who told me that and then save my dog and my horses. Seriously there is no way I could choose between them. My daughters cats on the other hand could drown in the stock tank and I would not shed a single tear. I would never hurt one of them deliberately(the cats) I just wouldn't be sad if we didn't have any as I don't like cats at all.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

Jolien said:


> Furthermore all men came from a womb.


 And after puberty almost all of the rest of our lives trying to get back into one. :rofl::rofl:







jonbailey said:


> This is NOT the case with highest animal species: the most intelligent ones with meat in their diets but having a "queen bee" in the group is for the inferior plant-only eaters.
> 
> The male sex is king among the wolf, the primates (man, gorilla, baboon), the lion, the tiger, the leopard, the cougar, the bear and the fox. An alpha male leads a wolf pack on a hunt. A number of lionesses surround a maned king in a lion pride. This is true for apex predators, those at the top of the food chain. Man is the top apex predator and ruler of this world: the King of the Animal Kingdom and of all living things.


Now he is really yanking that chain





Hondo said:


> Haw haw! I saw that sometime ago and have related it to several people since. Gotta give the kids a thumbs up for tackling it.
> 
> Our number was two long cranks and one short. I'm thinking the kids might have had to resorted to an internet search to figure that one out.
> 
> ...


Wow some one else beside me had a party line.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Oh @RegalCharm.. your post made my day. LOL

I too grew up with a rotary phone on a party line!
I used to listen to the neighbors talk, they'd blame their kids for being on the line listening, I'd giggle, then mom would catch me and whoop my bum for eavesdropping..lol!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

jonbailey said:


> This is NOT the case with highest animal species: the most intelligent ones with meat in their diets but having a "queen bee" in the group is for the inferior plant-only eaters.
> 
> The male sex is king among the wolf, the primates (man, gorilla, baboon), the lion, the tiger, the leopard, the cougar, the bear and the fox. An alpha male leads a wolf pack on a hunt. A number of lionesses surround a maned king in a lion pride. This is true for apex predators, those at the top of the food chain. Man is the top apex predator and ruler of this world: the King of the Animal Kingdom and of all living things.



Regarding primates, bonobo societies are run by females and are said to be a lot less violent than chimpanzee societies which are run by males. The world might be a more peaceful place run by females. Maybe that's why those "inferior plant-only eaters" seem to get along so well with each other.

As for lions, ever notice how the female lions are always doing the hunting? What's up with that........male lions just seem so lazy! Sure, if they are "single" they will hunt, but once the get their own pride, the girls have to hunt for them. :wink:


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

FWIW, my comments were not about a rotary dial party line. Them thar war considered advanced technology.


All the people on the "party lines" I was referring to owned their party line and had to cooperate with other owners to go repair it when the ice storms or fallen trees broke it.


There was no charge unless you connected to another party line which required going through "central" where my spinster red haired cousin inserted plugs in the switch board to connect you. Only during business hours.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

RegalCharm


:shock:mg::cheers::thumbsup::rofl:


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

jonbailey said:


> This is NOT the case with highest animal species: the most intelligent ones with meat in their diets but having a "queen bee" in the group is for the inferior plant-only eaters.
> 
> The male sex is king among the wolf, the primates (man, gorilla, baboon), the lion, the tiger, the leopard, the cougar, the bear and the fox. An alpha male leads a wolf pack on a hunt. A number of lionesses surround a maned king in a lion pride. This is true for apex predators, those at the top of the food chain. Man is the top apex predator and ruler of this world: the King of the Animal Kingdom and of all living things.


This is what I was thinking when I read that...


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

RegalCharm said:


> And after puberty almost all of the rest of our lives trying to get back into one. :rofl::rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We never had a party line. Did have rotary phones. Always had running water, electricity from the grid, gas lines and no septic tanks. Those party lines never belonged in America at all! They seem so cave-man age. Something that belongs in some banana republic. How many people have died because emergencies weren't reported in time because some prattling telephone hog (likely a woman) held up a party line?


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I have been following this with amusement. In my area: the western style riders are equally divided between men and women. The vaqueros are mostly men (on high dollar stallions) so in my case - more men than women.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

trailhorserider said:


> Regarding primates, bonobo societies are run by females and are said to be a lot less violent than chimpanzee societies which are run by males. The world might be a more peaceful place run by females. Maybe that's why those "inferior plant-only eaters" seem to get along so well with each other.
> 
> As for lions, ever notice how the female lions are always doing the hunting? What's up with that........male lions just seem so lazy! Sure, if they are "single" they will hunt, but once the get their own pride, the girls have to hunt for them. :wink:


The boys in manes have to help take down the biggest prey for the pride due to their muscle.
It's unlikely just lionesses, even a number of them, can bring down a big buffalo.


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## Rebarider (Nov 18, 2014)

What country do you live in?


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Rebarider said:


> What country do you live in?



Oklahoma.


Go figure.


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

Well, I live in West Virginia, and I don’t know ANYONE who rides horses— men or women. Mostly because owning and caring for horses is extremely expensive, so the only people who can afford horses live on country clubs, around larger cities, not in the countryside. Even farmers don’t ride horses here.

But it is true, it seems that over the last 30 years, women have taken over the entire animal-oriented umbrella of professions or hobbies— agriculturalists, horse riders, veterinarians, even hawking. I actually started taking veterinary classes at a well-known agricultural/veterinary school in a rural part of Virginia, but decided against it because I found that the students were literally about 98% female, most of the professors were female, and it was clear that the entire industry/profession is female dominated, which, as a male myself, is not a situation I wanted to get into.

I think this may have to do with the fact that now, animal-oriented professions and hobbies have the “aww, animals are cute, I love animals”, “social justice warrior” air about them, which seems to attract certain types of women, but also turns off most men. It’s a complicated and interesting phenomenon.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

HorseResearcher said:


> Well, I live in West Virginia, and I don’t know ANYONE who rides horses— men or women. Mostly because owning and caring for horses is extremely expensive, so the only people who can afford horses live on country clubs, around larger cities, not in the countryside. Even farmers don’t ride horses here.
> 
> But it is true, it seems that over the last 30 years, women have taken over the entire animal-oriented umbrella of professions or hobbies— agriculturalists, horse riders, veterinarians, even hawking. I actually started taking veterinary classes at a well-known agricultural/veterinary school in a rural part of Virginia, but decided against it because I found that the students were literally about 98% female, most of the professors were female, and it was clear that the entire industry/profession is female dominated, which, as a male myself, is not a situation I wanted to get into.
> 
> I think this may have to do with the fact that now, animal-oriented professions and hobbies have the “aww, animals are cute, I love animals”, “social justice warrior” air about them, which seems to attract certain types of women, but also turns off most men. It’s a complicated and interesting phenomenon.


May I ask why "it was not a situation you wanted to get into"?
I am not looking to attack you, I'm truly curious why?


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

HorseResearcher said:


> I actually started taking veterinary classes at a well-known agricultural/veterinary school in a rural part of Virginia, but decided against it because I found that the students were literally about 98% female, most of the professors were female, and it was clear that the entire industry/profession is female dominated, which, as a male myself, is not a situation I wanted to get into.


I went to high school in Finland, at my particular high school (it's called lukio there) we had 250 kids of which including myself 12 were guys, all the rest were girls. Seems you didn't care for that situation in vet school but I'm not going to lie, I definitely didn't hate it. Being 16 - 18 years old surrounded by Scandinavian girls many of which were easily hard 10s wasn't exactly the hardest thing I have ever done in my life to say the least  I'm still friends with a bunch of them and even after all these years most of them are still pretty easy on the eyes. As far as grades and all that sort of thing went the teachers never favored the girls over the few of us guys. We all got exactly the grades we earned.


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## The Humble Horseman (Dec 5, 2018)

COWCHICK77 said:


> May I ask why "it was not a situation you wanted to get into"?
> I am not looking to attack you, I'm truly curious why?


I sent you an overly verbose PM on why I personally would be leery of that situation as to not derail this thread.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

HorseResearcher said:


> Well, I live in West Virginia, and I don’t know ANYONE who rides horses— men or women. Mostly because owning and caring for horses is extremely expensive, so the only people who can afford horses live on country clubs, around larger cities, not in the countryside. Even farmers don’t ride horses here.
> 
> But it is true, it seems that over the last 30 years, women have taken over the entire animal-oriented umbrella of professions or hobbies— agriculturalists, horse riders, veterinarians, even hawking. I actually started taking veterinary classes at a well-known agricultural/veterinary school in a rural part of Virginia, but decided against it because I found that the students were literally about 98% female, most of the professors were female, and it was clear that the entire industry/profession is female dominated, which, as a male myself, is not a situation I wanted to get into.
> 
> I think this may have to do with the fact that now, animal-oriented professions and hobbies have the “aww, animals are cute, I love animals”, “social justice warrior” air about them, which seems to attract certain types of women, but also turns off most men. It’s a complicated and interesting phenomenon.


I've been to dozens of male veterinarians, but I've never seen just one woman veterinarian. 
The last time I went to a vet's office was 18 years ago in Idaho.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Rebarider said:


> What country do you live in?


I used to think I lived in America in the Milky Way galaxy but I don't 
even know what planet in what galaxy I'm on these days. 
This doesn't seem the be the America I used to know.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jonbailey said:


> Those party lines never belonged in America at all! They seem so cave-man age.



Before the battery operated crank phones there were no phones. 1492 until abround 1940 in the country side. Those days were more American than now-a-days and more firmly ensconced in the milky way than the days you now lament.


When the crank phone party lines came in, there was no doctor to call and no ambulance service. People had to be self reliant along with help from the nearest neighbor. In the worst cases, when I was a kid, you had to load up into a car and travel a short 7 miles of rough dirt road to the nearest doctor whose front living room was his office.


No calling 911 please help me I think I'm sick or hurt bad.


That old original America is pretty dead in most parts.


Keep trolling. Were still biting. But we're slipping off the hook and having fun. Yeehaw.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Keep trolling. Were still biting. But we're slipping off the hook and having fun. Yeehaw.


:iagree: :dance-smiley05: :charge: :happydance:


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Hondo said:


> Before the battery operated crank phones there were no phones. 1492 until abround 1940 in the country side. Those days were more American than now-a-days and more firmly ensconced in the milky way than the days you now lament.
> 
> 
> When the crank phone party lines came in, there was no doctor to call and no ambulance service. People had to be self reliant along with help from the nearest neighbor. In the worst cases, when I was a kid, you had to load up into a car and travel a short 7 miles of rough dirt road to the nearest doctor whose front living room was his office.
> ...



I can imagine then some people (in crank phone days) actually died on account of lack of more sophisticated communications and health care emergency response services. I was born in 1964 and grew up in the SF Bay Area. No party lines and always paramedic or ambulance services. Before 911, we dialed *0* for operator if somebody were to have a heart attack. This is a serious response, no fish troll. But people are welcome here to continue to bite what the they might perceive as bait! 
Do you fish like cheese balls or worms?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jonbailey said:


> I can imagine then some people (in crank phone days) actually died on account of lack of more sophisticated communications and health care emergency response services. I was born in 1964 and grew up in the SF Bay Area. No party lines and always paramedic or ambulance services. Before 911, we dialed *0* for operator if somebody were to have a heart attack. This is a serious response, no fish troll. But people are welcome here to continue to bite what the they might perceive as bait!
> Do you fish like cheese balls or worms?



I'm thinking about this.


A lot of people died before party lines because there were no modern doctors available.


Same thing during the party line days.


And now there are a lot of people dying from things that did not cause death during the party line and pre-party line days.


So there is a plausible argument, I think, that the circumstances and environment that produced the fine professional emergency medical response services, also produced the need for them.


Not many people died of drug overdoses in the crank and pre-crank phone days.


So put that in your pipe and smoke on it a while.


Over..........


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Hondo said:


> I'm thinking about this.
> 
> 
> A lot of people died before party lines because there were no modern doctors available.
> ...



In the old days, people didn't live as long. There were more nasty illnesses like polio and TB. More people were seriously injured in automobiles as there were no seat belts or airbags. Our family's '59 Mercury had factory seat belts and a padded dash and was pretty safety advanced for its time. I can't remember if this car had the all-important shoulder harnesses. I hated this car as it broke down a lot on the road. A horse-drawn Amish buggy would have provided much better service. But back to old technology, healthcare and primitive living, on a farm or ranch, a person could seriously get injured by an animal that kicked, clawed, butted or bit. Rattlesnakes were still poisonous.

But yes, people rarely died from using crank in the days telephones had a crank.


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## lb27312 (Aug 25, 2018)

I lived in the party line days and actual outhouses!! Yep had some neighbors that were ancient and they only had an outhouse... we as kids would go up and help them with whatever... as they would let us go into their apple orchard with our horses... I think I'm at an age that has seen soooo much change... and I think that's the best!

I lived in the Ozarks that might explain the above!


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

lb27312 said:


> I lived in the party line days and actual outhouses!! Yep had some neighbors that were ancient and they only had an outhouse... we as kids would go up and help them with whatever... as they would let us go into their apple orchard with our horses... I think I'm at an age that has seen soooo much change... and I think that's the best!
> 
> I lived in the Ozarks that might explain the above!



No, I never lived in such a cave. Coastal northern California, even in the rolling-hills dairy farm regions of Marin County, the town of Novato, where I was raised was far more advanced even in the 1960's. Indoor plumbing, indoor flush toilets, electricity on the grid, municipal water, dial telephones on a private line, public sewage and natural gas lines. Streets were mostly paved but the lane to our home was dirt and gravel until 1974 when it was paved. People next door had horses and other farm animals mainly as pets. Cows, horses, sheep, chickens, geese, ducks, dogs and goats surrounded us. No pigs though. This was a dairy farm area and many beef cattle were raised in the area too. Many horses all over that place.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I had a party line, only had five digits for any phone number in the area, and had an outhouse in 1986 in my area of Wyoming. I doubt we were special.

We got along just fine. 

I was living off-grid in a cow camp when I took my national boards. Outhouse, no electricity, hauled water, bathed in a tin tub, no phone, mail service three days a week ( I checked once a week). That was in 2002. 

I hear of people now who think that's the way to live. And they spend a bunch of money trying to do just that. Funny ducks.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

I remember when my doctor would come to the house when I was a kid. Outhouse till I was around 9 before we had indoor plumbing. First tv I was 8 I think. Cartoons only on Sat. mornings. And Chicken was only cooked for Sunday dinner. Worked on the neighbors farm from morning milking to after evening milking for $1.00 a day and when hay season come the farmer would give me hay instead of the dollar for my pony in the winter time.

We always seemed to have a milk cow for milk, made butter from the cream drank fresh warm milk in the winter time and would always try to sneak some of the cream mom had saved in the refrigerator. Chickens for eggs and meat.
School closed for snow almost never happened as the school bus drivers were farmers (males) who would have the bus at home and get up early to put chains on the back tires. All were standard shift, no automatics transmissions.

Go to the feed store with dad and get grain for the cow and it came in a printed cloth bag which mom would save and make into some form of clothing. Dad was more bark than bite, but you didn't mess with Mom. Worst whipping of my life she gave me once for breaking a window accidently

Probably the very best lesson I learned at a young age was to not make fun of a handicapped person or to hit girls especially my younger sister. Those 2 rules I passed onto my kids also at a very early age also. So many good things my parents instilled in me and I passed on. Now not saying I didn't get into a little trouble now and then but I can say I had a good up bringing .

In first grade I got my knuckles wacked with a yard stick by the teacher for trying to talk to a girl. Marlene M. prettiest girl in the class. My eyes watered up but I didn't cry. That was another thing boys were taught Men don't Cry. I didn't cry when my only sister died nor my dad, nor my mom and not my wife. But I did in private not in public. 

Kids today have no Idea of how good it was growing up in the 50's and early 60's. They will never know in this materialistic world they are/have grown up in


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Doctors where I am still make house calls.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

@boots tin tub bath. We had one of those fat cigar shaped heating thingys that you put in the tub of cold water and then plugged into the outlet. They finally did away with them cause people were getting electrocuted.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Generalizations of genders doesn't offend me at all, being female and all..lol.
> 
> I am disturbed by thinking movies are accurate depictions of history. *eyeroll*





RegalCharm said:


> @boots tin tub bath. We had one of those fat cigar shaped heating thingys that you put in the tub of cold water and then plugged into the outlet. They finally did away with them cause people were getting electrocuted.


Yikes! I bet.

My nod to luxury was several solar shower packs that I could use in the summer. Raised three kids living like this. None of us like tv even now.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

RegalCharm said:


> I remember when my doctor would come to the house when I was a kid. Outhouse till I was around 9 before we had indoor plumbing. First tv I was 8 I think. Cartoons only on Sat. mornings. And Chicken was only cooked for  Sunday dinner. Worked on the neighbors farm from morning milking to after evening milking for $1.00 a day and when hay season come the farmer would give me hay instead of the dollar for my pony in the winter time.
> 
> We always seemed to have a milk cow for milk, made butter from the cream drank fresh warm milk in the winter time and would always try to sneak some of the cream mom had saved in the refrigerator. Chickens for eggs and meat.
> School closed for snow almost never happened as the school bus drivers were farmers (males) who would have the bus at home and get up early to put chains on the back tires. All were standard shift, no automatics transmissions.
> ...


In the northern San Francisco Bay Area, even as early as 1969, it was always women who drove those yellow school buses, not males. They weren't farmers but actual employees of the Novato school district who wore black and yellow uniforms. California isn't so hickish even for farmers and ranchers there. My mother also taught me that boys shouldn't punch girls but to give them a push if they ask for it instead. I have pushed girls. One time, age 8, I pushed one and she accidentally fell down the steps (about three feet) of the back door of my grandparents house. The girl, living up the street, was being a pest, trying to grab my toy motor boat. She was cross about it but didn't get hurt. At school, second grade, a male PE teacher belted me up the side of the head (at age 8 again) in front of everybody summarily. I was arguing with a girl about whose position it was in line while at bat for softball (played with a tennis ball). I pushed her, she accidentally fell and got a nose bleed. The teacher asked who did it and everyone pointed at me. He summarily belted me up he side of the head backhanded and I peed down my pants leg. I only got to try to explain what happened after I got hit. My parents never found out about this. Spank-happy adults in my day often never applied due process with small children before administering punishments. Hit now, ask questions later.


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

COWCHICK77 said:


> May I ask why "it was not a situation you wanted to get into"?
> I am not looking to attack you, I'm truly curious why?


It’s never a good idea to go into a line of work in which you are an extreme minority, particularly due to gender, and particularly when the “ruling” gender would have control over your promotions, life, livelihood, pay, etc. Have had enough life experience to know that it’s not wise to put yourself into such situations, if they can be avoided.

Besides, as a middle-aged man, I’m not sure if my wife would be ok with my hanging out with and spending most of my nights and days with nothing but 18-22 year old girls while in college lol....


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Novato? Marin County? I should mention, I suppose, that I lived in Pacifica for 12 years of my adult life.


But the early years were in the Ozarks. Yes, outhouse until I was out of school and gone. Sears and Sawbuck catalogue for TP. Had to crumple and work the paper to soften. Catalogue had a girlie section for boys to view while they waited.


Oh yes. Galvanized tub with water heated on the wood stove. We did have propane for cooking as we raised broiler chickens which needed heat when babies.


I think much of the increased life expectancy has come from research with the elimination of early killers such as small pox. And education on healthful eating and living has also added to longevity. Not sure how much 911 has added. Too many sad stories about 911 reducing longevity.


But I have been hauled out of the woods by medics on two occasions I should add. Plus were it not for cancer research and being admitted to a successful trial, I would not be littering these pages. 



This thread is continuing to roll along nicely. When I first saw it I would not have given the chance of the proverbial rolling snowball


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

HorseResearcher said:


> It’s never a good idea to go into a line of work in which you are an extreme minority, particularly due to gender, and particularly when the “ruling” gender would have control over your promotions, life, livelihood, pay, etc.


Welcome to the world of women!


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

AndyTheCornbread said:


> I went to high school in Finland, at my particular high school (it's called lukio there) we had 250 kids of which including myself 12 were guys, all the rest were girls. Seems you didn't care for that situation in vet school but I'm not going to lie, I definitely didn't hate it. Being 16 - 18 years old surrounded by Scandinavian girls many of which were easily hard 10s wasn't exactly the hardest thing I have ever done in my life to say the least  I'm still friends with a bunch of them and even after all these years most of them are still pretty easy on the eyes. As far as grades and all that sort of thing went the teachers never favored the girls over the few of us guys. We all got exactly the grades we earned.


Hey if I were 16 years old (and therefore not know any better) I wouldn’t object! But at my age (in my 40s), due to my long experience in my 2 careers, I’ve found that female-dominated businesses/careers are never good news for men. Perhaps Finland is different. In the US, there is a lot of anti-male feeling, in some academic circles, unfortunately. And, it is only human nature to help those who are like you... that is something else I’ve learned through experience. People are people, and they will help those who are like them, before others.


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

jonbailey said:


> I've been to dozens of male veterinarians, but I've never seen just one woman veterinarian.
> The last time I went to a vet's office was 18 years ago in Idaho.


Things are different now... my experience is mainly in Virginia, Florida, and West Virginia, where I now live. The other day I took one of my cats to the vet.... literally every single one of the veterinarians was female, all their assistants were female, even all the receptionists were female. To be honest I can’t remember the last time I saw a male veterinarian... and I’m thinking way back to the 1990s....


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

SwissMiss said:


> Welcome to the world of women!



Admittedly, that same thought did enter my head when reading the reply.


That said, both genders do have their own particular burdens. Problem is, the natural tendency is for each of us to be more immediately aware of our own personal burdens than of those around us.


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

SwissMiss said:


> Welcome to the world of women!


I decided to stay out of that world lol... went into a totally different career path.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

HorseResearcher said:


> I decided to stay out of that world lol... went into a totally different career path.


:wink: I think you misunderstood me here :wink:

Except for the "women-appropriate" professions, women were/are the odd one out among men, who are deciding about their promotion, pay and what not...


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

Hondo said:


> Novato? Marin County? I should mention, I suppose, that I lived in Pacifica for 12 years of my adult life.
> 
> 
> But the early years were in the Ozarks. Yes, outhouse until I was out of school and gone. Sears and Sawbuck catalogue for TP. Had to crumple and work the paper to soften. Catalogue had a girlie section for boys to view while they waited.
> ...


*911* (nine-one-one) the emergency telephone number, not the terror attack (nine-eleven)

you see what terrorists do to Americans? 

they not only kill us and cause major disruption and headaches for air travelers, but confuse our long-standing familiar vernacular as well 

to some a *911* (nine-eleven) could even be a Porsche car model as well


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

SwissMiss said:


> :wink: I think you misunderstood me here :wink:
> 
> Except for the "women-appropriate" professions, women were/are the odd one out among men, who are deciding about their promotion, pay and what not...


True, but in my experience, men tend to be more logical, consistent, and merit-based in their professional and promotion-related decisions. And is why many women would rather work for men, than for other women. And frankly, it’s why I’d rather work for men than women.

There is also the argument that women have been entering professions for which they are not necessarily suited, pushing men out, and at the expense of raising families and other more traditional roles, which is leading to the alarmingly terrible birth rate among Western (including American) populations, in comparison to other populations which are exploding. But, that’s a completely different topic far afield from horses!


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## lb27312 (Aug 25, 2018)

I feel very blessed for the way I was raised.... never worried about who was driving by in the area.... be lost on the horses for hours and no one worried. Showering/bathing outside in the summer was preferred than inside as it was HOT! So was sleeping. No one got central AC/heat until AFTER we were out of the house... wth?? lol

OP says it was like living in a cave but that's okay to me... I didn't know it wasn't the way to live... I didn't know I was poor until someone in school told me that having my clothes made instead of bought meant we were poor... lol life was good, didn't know any different..


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

lb27312 said:


> I lived in the party line days and actual outhouses!! Yep had some neighbors that were ancient and they only had an outhouse... we as kids would go up and help them with whatever... as they would let us go into their apple orchard with our horses... I think I'm at an age that has seen soooo much change... and I think that's the best!
> 
> I lived in the Ozarks that might explain the above!


It’s funny you mention that— my fiancee’s mom tells us that she grew up in a house (on a farm in WV) in which there was no running water, so they had to use the outhouse. And she in turn remembers her mom’s reaction when they did put in running water, and they were going to put a toilet in—- she adamantly insisted that she didn’t want “anyone defecating in my house!!” That really brought things into perspective for me. Though we may think that running water, and toilets, are a great advance, they are certainly not more sanitary. Think about it, because of running water, you now have people defecating inside your house! Where you eat and sleep. In the old days, this was considered disgusting. And when you think about it, it’s a logical sentiment.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

HorseResearcher said:


> And is why many women would rather work for men, than for other women.


I am one of those who prefers to work with or for men. 
Don't get me wrong, I've had crappy and great coworkers and bosses of both genders but as a whole working for and with men was much easier for me. 
I think a lot of that has to do with how I was raised and the jobs in which I worked I tend to do.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

HorseResearcher said:


> It’s funny you mention that— my fiancee’s mom tells us that she grew up in a house (on a farm in WV) in which there was no running water, so they had to use the outhouse. And she in turn remembers her mom’s reaction when they did put in running water, and they were going to put a toilet in—- she adamantly insisted that she didn’t want “anyone sh—ing in my house!!” That really brought things into perspective for me. Though we may think that running water, and toilets, are a great advance, they are certainly not more sanitary. Think about it, because of running water, you now have people defecating inside your house! Where you eat and sleep. In the old days, this was considered disgusting. And when you think about it, it’s a logical sentiment.


Lol! I read something awhile back to the effect of,
"My how times have changed, used to go to the bathroom outside and cook inside and now we go to the bathroom inside and cook outside".


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I am one of those who prefers to work with or for men.
> Don't get me wrong, I've had crappy and great coworkers and bosses of both genders but as a whole working for and with men was much easier for me.
> I think a lot of that has to do with how I was raised and the jobs in which I worked I tend to do.


I totally agree, there are bad apples among all people, so one can only speak “as a whole”. And yes, it depends on upbringing and types of jobs one has experience with!


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Lol! I read something awhile back to the effect of,
> "My how times have changed, used to go to the bathroom outside and cook inside and now we go to the bathroom inside and cook outside".


Haha nice quote! Perhaps a good compromise would be building an outhouse, far from the house, but with running water/toilet. You’d freeze your butt off making your way out there in winter, and might be bitten by a snake on the butt in summer, but at least you’re not stinking up the house and you wouldn’t have to dispose of the waste lol.

This is an interesting discussion, I originally joined this website to try to get opinions and perspectives from experienced people on how horses behave en masse during difficult/frightening situations (i.e. combat, or noise etc) because of a civil war battle involving cavalry that I’m researching. It’s cool to find other discussions here too.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

About my 911, nine one one, comment.


It was tongue in cheek about news stories popping up about how someone called nine one one with the police showing up and shooting innocent suspects.


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## HorseResearcher (Feb 27, 2019)

Hondo said:


> About my 911, nine one one, comment.
> 
> 
> It was tongue in cheek about news stories popping up about how someone called nine one one with the police showing up and shooting innocent suspects.


Fortunately, that happens only rarely.


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## jonbailey (May 7, 2018)

HorseResearcher said:


> Things are different now... my experience is mainly in Virginia, Florida, and West Virginia, where I now live. The other day I took one of my cats to the vet.... literally every single one of the veterinarians was female, all their assistants were female, even all the receptionists were female. To be honest I can’t remember the last time I saw a male veterinarian... and I’m thinking way back to the 1990s....


It seems as if the fondness of men for animals is shrinking: far from the boy and his dog.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

My area must be an outlier in this, too. 

We have many male vets. A few female. One of the best, fastest and most accurate, for preg testing cows is female, though. With a good set up and crew, I saw her check 700 in one day. 

Here they all do large and small animals.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The vet/owner I used before I moved (only 100 miles) is male. He does have a female vet that covers most of the office visits for both large and small animals. All of the assistant/technicians have been female.


The vet I plan to use now is male but again all the others are female.


Most nurses in hospitals are female. I do believe there is a genetic based component to the female caring and that I believe is the cause of both female oriented nursing field and vet assistant/technician field.


Large animal vets do not really need a caring component in their makeup to function. Not really that much more than a cowboy that ropes and stretches a cow for medication. Not saying cowboys (or cowgirls) are not caring, just that it's not as required a component as in nursing.


So my take is that since the veterinarian field has shifted more towards owners with pets they cherish, the caring component is more important than in the past, perhaps, and that would explain, at least to some degree, the shift from a male dominated veterinarian field toward being female dominated. 



When I was young, myself and other boys roamed the fields and woods with their dogs. With the population shift to urban areas with small yards, busy lives away from home for both parents, ready technology available for babysitting children, many never have the chance to learn what bonding with a dog could/would mean.


My thoughts.............


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jonbailey said:


> It seems as if the fondness of men for animals is shrinking: far from the boy and his dog.


Odd. I've noticed LOTS of boys and grown men who blatantly and flagrantly love and adore dogs! I might have even got something caught in my eye when it has been time to put a dog down. It seems to have happened every time, in fact. Must be dirty vet offices.

Don't know why. They are fierce predators. Born killers:


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jonbailey said:


> It seems as if the fondness of men for animals is shrinking: far from the boy and his dog.



I'm sort of curious what observations have lead you to surmise this is happening.


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## 281187 (Sep 19, 2019)

jonbailey said:


> It seems as if the fondness of men for animals is shrinking: far from the boy and his dog.


Forget about dogs, you should've seen my older brother when his pet _gerbil_ died! He adored the little thing and was absolutely _distraught_ when it died (Of old age). He's admitted that he's avoided getting another one because they have too short lifespan for him to "emotionally deal with". 

So he's opted to feed the neighborhood tabby cat instead.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

Without a doubt my ACD is my best friend in the world. I trust her to have my back and just trust her in general more than any human I have ever dated or been married to. I am going to be devastated when she dies someday:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

We have a mixture of both male and female vets where I live. It seems like more of the men are large animal vets and women are small animal vets, although a lot of the women also treat large animals. But if you find someone who only treats small animals, it's usually a woman.

What I have noticed is that the men are generally more confident handling horses and the women vets are more afraid of them. The women are quicker to want the horse "restrained" in some way. The men will usually try to treat the horse first before sedating/restraining. So, even though I am a woman, I have had better luck with male vets treating my horses. I hate it when the vet is afraid of the horse. :evil: I am sure there are good women horse vets out there, but I really haven't run into them yet. My favorite vet was an older gentlemen that only treated horses. He kept working until he passed away at around age 80. I have a good middle aged male horse vet now.

I think a lot of the women vets just aren't comfortable around horses. Which as a horse-loving woman sort of irritates me. But I guess they can't help it. If they don't have horse experience, they don't have horse experience.

MAYBE, the key to finding a good horse vet isn't male or female, it's finding a vet that actually owns horses. Both of my last horse vets are/were horsemen. It helps if the vet knows how to handle a horse and isn't scared of them. Stay away from vets afraid of horses......they are quick to grab an ear or drug a horse for no reason. Had one want to "ear down" my very quiet, gentle, first horse. When I objected she was like "how do you normally restrain him?" And I said "with a halter."


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

trailhorserider. It is very similar here. Female vets tend to focus more on small animals/pets. Male vets tend to do larger farm animals. The vet I use for my cattle is a cattleman. The vet I use for my horses is a horseman. He rides Paso Finos. Both will do dogs. Interestingly, once I brought a horse to the vet who treats my cattle and I could immediately tell by his body language that he wasn't very comfortable around horses. I never brought him another horse, again. And at some other time, he told me that horses were irrational and unpredictable. Yet, the first time I brought him my rescued Pit Bulls, he was completely at ease around them. I have tried a few female vets, but I just haven't found them to be very good.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

charrorider said:


> trailhorserider. It is very similar here. Female vets tend to focus more on small animals/pets. Male vets tend to do larger farm animals. The vet I use for my cattle is a cattleman. The vet I use for my horses is a horseman. He rides Paso Finos. Both will do dogs. Interestingly, once I brought a horse to the vet who treats my cattle and I could immediately tell by his body language that he wasn't very comfortable around horses. I never brought him another horse, again. And at some other time, he told me that horses were irrational and unpredictable. Yet, the first time I brought him my rescued Pit Bulls, he was completely at ease around them. I have tried a few female vets, but I just haven't found them to be very good.



Very interesting! I would have thought someone who was comfortable with cattle would have been good with horses.....because horses are almost always tamer and more handled than cattle. He must have had a bad experience! 

Do any of you guys watch the vet programs on TV? There is a lady vet up in the Yukon who treats all sorts of wildlife......buffalo, musk ox, reindeer, bears, even some sort of badger type creature that can't recall exactly what it was.......anyway, she has made some comments on how unpredictable horses are. And I'm like, compared to what you USUALLY work on!? 

Horses certainly CAN be dangerous. And a vet has to protect him or herself from getting hurt. Being a large animal vet is a high-risk occupation. But as a horse owner, if I see the vet hesitant around my horse, it makes me think, how good a vet can they possibly be? I would hope my vet would have a lot more horse experience than me.

My old vet had so many cool tricks for safely treating horses. I wish I could have learned more from him. He palpated my mare by backing her into a corral corner and reaching in through the fence. She wasn't a kicker, but he didn't know that and it was a really cool trick for keeping himself safe. He had other techniques for laying horses down when he was sedating them and doing different things. Where to stand so you wouldn't get kicked or run over. He was just a really good horseman! 

I think my current vet is from a ranching family. When my gelding badly cut his leg, the vet didn't hesitate to get right in there and take a good look at the wound, even getting clippers and cutting the hair around it even though it was a hind leg. You could tell he was comfortable around horses and could read their body language.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

HorseResearcher said:


> True, but in my experience, men tend to be more logical, consistent, and merit-based in their professional and promotion-related decisions. And is why many women would rather work for men, than for other women. And frankly, it’s why I’d rather work for men than women.
> 
> There is also the argument that women have been entering professions for which they are not necessarily suited, pushing men out, and at the expense of raising families and other more traditional roles, which is leading to the alarmingly terrible birth rate among Western (including American) populations, in comparison to other populations which are exploding. But, that’s a completely different topic far afield from horses!


I told myself I wouldn't, but I came back to this thread. :-?

1. Yes, no doubt in your own personal experience. As a man. No doubt it seems logical and consistent when you are the one being promoted. And being promoted at least in part due to your gender. No doubt that all makes a lot of sense to you. 

2. "Not necessarily suited" = ??? 

3. "Alarmingly terrible birth rate" -- I think you meant a lower birth rate. One that is better for the environment, better for people, and better for society as whole. So I'm going to say that's actually a good thing. 

True story, one of my vets seems to be experimenting with assistants. The first time she came out, it was a male assistant. This was just an assistant, mind you, but he kept trying to take over the conversation, act like he was in charge, work on the horse (at one point she said "He's going to kick you" and I wish I had let him kick him), and generally place himself at the forefront of what was going on. THIS is why some women don't like to work with men. Men who seem to consider themselves deserving of being the most important one in the room, based only on their gender.

-----now hopefully this thread can go back to discussions about outhouses and party lines, which I found really interesting, especially hearing from people who actually experienced that first hand-----


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

RE: Men who seem to consider themselves deserving of being the most important one in the room, based only on their gender.


Comment: FWIW, I personally have witness this type of narcissistic display acted out by both men and women. But it is considered more prevalent among the male gender than female.


I lean towards the notion that this difference is at least in some part due to the requirements of the two genders during the evolutionary period in the past.


The male gender was required to be aggressive to survive in the wild while the female gender needed to be more nurturing for the offspring to survive. Plus have long legs for escape.


If everyone could recognize where each gender came from, the whys, and the individual challenges of each, there would not be this unending gender battle.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

RE: --now hopefully this thread can go back to discussions about outhouses and party lines, 



Comment: OK. How come nobody has mentioned what was called in my area, Thunder Jugs. I see on a search they were also called Thunder Pots.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Hondo said:


> RE: --now hopefully this thread can go back to discussions about outhouses and party lines,
> 
> 
> 
> Comment: OK. How come nobody has mentioned what was called in my area, Thunder Jugs. I see on a search they were also called Thunder Pots.


Ha ha! My daughter carries her grooming supplies in one. Nobody borrows from her!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Hondo said:


> RE: --now hopefully this thread can go back to discussions about outhouses and party lines,
> 
> Comment: OK. How come nobody has mentioned what was called in my area, Thunder Jugs. I see on a search they were also called Thunder Pots.


OK... I will bite, of course... but I'm not sure I want to know... I think I can sort of guess...

I have found people's experiences growing up really interesting. I can hardly imagine that way of life. This discussion reminds me of how I told my daughter, just the other day, that when I was growing up there was no internet. She couldn't even imagine....


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...0.Xchamber+pot.TRS0&_nkw=chamber+pot&_sacat=0


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

@Hondo - A Gazunder 

A Chamber pot, so called because it goes under the bed!:smile:

@ACinATX - No internet and no mobiles. I still have an old fashioned mobile and they don't understand how i managed. Trying to explain how we managed with no mobiles leaves them speechless. When i was very young the only access we had to a phone, was the public one in the near-by village; somehow, we still survived!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

AndyTheCornbread said:


> Without a doubt my ACD is my best friend in the world. I trust her to have my back and just trust her in general more than any human I have ever dated or been married to. I am going to be devastated when she dies someday:


We've had two heelers... a blue male that made it to 2 years old and I was just getting him to listen to me - I could single out a cow giving me trouble, put him on her, and he'd get her back in line... and I could call him back to me and put him on another... but he wouldn't 'work' for anyone else. He developed a horrible fascination with moving tires and paid the supreme price... ran over by a truck doing 10mph of all things.

Lucy, a red female, also died chasing cars - the school bus. Likewise, she was just reaching an age where I could teach her some things.

I miss having a Heeler, but having two gone that way, I won't have any more. We have two Aussie Shepherds now. Bo is the 'family pet/clown' type breeding and LOOKS it. He's all floof and pretty. Maggie is working lines, and she looks more like a bronze and tan border collie or even a mutt, despite being American Cattle Dog registered/purebred with papers to show it. 

Maggie is just now coming two - and like the heelers, is finally figuring out what I need from her when we're messing with the cows. I hope to make her my camping buddy and trail dog this summer as my Schnauzer is going to be lucky to have a year left of life - she's 15 going on 16 now and suffering from the occasional stroke.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

*closed for review...*


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