# More Western questions from the Eventer!



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Oh dear, Sorry to say but you might have a hard time getting too many responses on this one... a lil too vague with your questions, you could just as easy google each event(what reining judges look for or reining judging for example)...


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

I can go into specifics.... I just wanted to know from people who acctually do these events


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Uh, ok gotcha.


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## Nita (May 24, 2007)

Um... Well, I'm going to link you to wikipedia, and then if you have further questions, just ask and I'll try to respond before I leave for XMAS... Like honeysuga said, you're a little vague... LOL, I have a hard time answering when I don't really know the question. But if you have any random questions after reading the wikipedia articles, feel free! Good luck! Western's way fun!

Reining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Trail riding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Western pleasure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cutting (sport) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Equitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There you go!


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

In reining, what do they mean by "bouncing it's rear?" Never heard that tem before! 
Also, why do horse's stick out their noses in the spins? I saw Stacy Westfall's Roxi do it, and the horse on Wikapedia is doing it, but why?

This is a more general question, but is there any reason why western riders like curbs? Is it just because of the neck reining? 

I don't get why the spur stop is such a bad thing. It's like saying that doing the opisite is the only right way. 

Thanks!


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't ride western, but i'll have a stab. Happy to be corrected :]



> why do horse's stick out their noses in the spins? I saw Stacy Westfall's Roxi do it, and the horse on Wikapedia is doing it, but why?


I think the main reason - is speed. They spin very fast - Try spinning in a circle really fast with your arms held in close, and then do the same with them stretched out - it is a lot less effort and concentration to have them out. I think it would be physically very hard or even impossible to produce a competition level spin with the head in a more rounded frame - that would put massive amounts of stress on the neck and back muscles.

Also, the horse needs to be free through it's body - A tense horse won't be able to perform the spin correctly - And to maintain a rounded frame during the high speed spins would require a lot of bracing in the body.



> This is a more general question, but is there any reason why western riders like curbs? Is it just because of the neck reining?


Neck reining, one handed riding, and refinement I believe. If you watch a reining pattern - Any movement of the riders hand is nearly imperceptable. Yet the slightest movement is communicated through the reins and picked up by the curb where it probably wouldn't in a snaffle. It simply allows for more refined cues from rider to horse - Reining is similar to dressage in that you want the movements to look effortless and harmonious - And a curb bit takes away the need for busy hand or reins.


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## Tasia (Aug 17, 2009)

Well said wild spot


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I tihnk the others have given good answers for your specific questions, ut I have one more thing to add:

When you spin, the judges like it when the horse puts its head down. Make sure your horse is crossing its front legs and planting the back foot. Most ofthe time correct movements are favored over fast sloppy ones.


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## Tasia (Aug 17, 2009)

There is so much to it but here is some info
Reining, A horse and rider preform a pattern the patterns start with a score of 70 you either increase or decrease threw the pattern. So if you got a 64 thats good if you got a 70 or higher thats really good. The movments are all about perfection and the amount of training is outstanding.

WP. The horse is to preform three basic gaits, walk, jog and lope with a low head set and controlled speed basically the horse should look like a pleasure to ride.

Trail - A range of obstacles that a horse is to respond as if he was on a trail. The judges look for a lot of control coming from your movements.
Hope this helps!


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

It did thank you!


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Since no one mentioned the spur stop, I will.

It's terrible. It's like driving a car with your emergency brake on.

The horse is supposed to stop when the spurs are held (and not usually lightly) against his frame. This makes most horses very crabby about the stop, and it's hard to get these horses to do anything else other then reining/western pleasure because the leg does not mean go. If you squeeze, they'll stop. There was one big time western pleasure trainer who said, 'if I get a horse in with a spur stop trained, he can't do anything else other then western pleasure.'


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

mayfieldk said:


> Since no one mentioned the spur stop, I will.
> 
> It's terrible. It's like driving a car with your emergency brake on.
> 
> The horse is supposed to stop when the spurs are held (and not usually lightly) against his frame. This makes most horses very crabby about the stop, and it's hard to get these horses to do anything else other then reining/western pleasure because the leg does not mean go. If you squeeze, they'll stop. There was one big time western pleasure trainer who said, 'if I get a horse in with a spur stop trained, he can't do anything else other then western pleasure.'



I'm going to guess that you haven't ridden a spur trained horse. A spur stop is really a way for the rider to rate the speed of their horse by only using their legs. A steady squeeze & hold (and a light hold does the trick) will get the horse to slow, while a bump-bump-bump will get the horse to increase speed. Works great for my horse & he's never crabby about a thing.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Does he show and do well in any classes apart from WP? (Not being snarky, just curious).


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Actually, I've ridden many. Most were crabby.

And I'm pretty sure the Association labeled it with excessive slow, head down too low, and 4-beating. They don't want to see it anymore, because it's unnecessary.

I can slow my horse too without my reins--with my seat.


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> ^ Does he show and do well in any classes apart from WP? (Not being snarky, just curious).


He does well in equitation, horsemanship, trail, showmanship, plus I do a lot of trail riding & give lessons with him. A spur stop can be a great asset in every way that I use him.

Maybe I should also say that I ride him without spurs. The spurs do not make the spur stop. It's the use of certain cues to get a certain response out of your horse.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I understand that spurs don't make a spur stop (however, many are trained this way).

The Association _still_ does not want to see it anymore--the leg should be impulsive. It's known as 'riding the brakes'. When the AQHA put out it's video of undesirable training methods, the spur stop was the first to be mentioned; Bob Avila notes that the spur stop is the 'worst thing ever invented'. Many trainers state if you're squeezing to keep him slow, you're not helping him, you're carrying him.

The association wants it out. Where's your argument against the association?


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

The spur stop sounds alot like dressage riders slowing their horse with their seat and legs and ther is no problem with that


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

mayfieldk said:


> IMany trainers state if you're squeezing to keep him slow, you're not helping him, you're carrying him.


That could be said about other methods as well. Anytime you have to "carry" the horse, it is not a well-trained, broke horse. When I talk about spur stop, it's probably not in the sense that you are referring to. I use it as a cue. Just like you would cue a horse to canter, I cue my horse to slow down. It's not a constant squeeze to maintain the slowness. That would be carrying the horse.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> The spur stop sounds alot like dressage riders slowing their horse with their seat and legs and ther is no problem with that


It's very different - In dressage the legs and seat are used to create forward and impulsion - And you become 'passive' or 'blocking' with your seat to ask for slower or for a stop.

The spur stop as I understand it, takes a cue that normally means forward but changes the purpose to mean stop. Putting your leg ON means STOP - When usually putting leg ON means GO.

That's where all the controversy comes from :]


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## HorseOfCourse (Jul 20, 2009)

I've never heard of the spur stop, but while I was training my horse I taught her that when we are stopped, a bump in a certain area means back up..and I thinks it's one of the greatest things I ever taught her. It really helped me win in a class when all the other riders were pulling the horses to go back.
I'm not sure if it's even close to the same thing, but there's my two-cents.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Since it was ignored twice I'll post i again...

' The association wants it out. Where's your argument against the association?'


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

mayfieldk said:


> Since it was ignored twice I'll post i again...
> 
> ' The association wants it out. Where's your argument against the association?'


Never said I had any beef with the association. :?


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

I still fail to see the problem with the spur stop. It's just training the horse differently.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I use my legs for back up also - Backward is still 'forward' - Just in a different direction. I use a blocking seat to stop, and then a blocking seat in conjunction with leg to back up - agree, a back up without rein will always win out. It is usually better quality.

Personally I don't like the idea - It goes against what we have been teaching horses for hundreds of years - That leg means forward. What if you are out working cattle and a cow breaks away, and in the heat of the moment you use the 'wrong' leg signal - Your horse stops and the cow gets away, creating a lot more work.

I think I more dislike it because it has no practical use for me - I teach my horses to stop off my seat and all my reins do is make sure they yeild their nose in the stop. I have never had any desire to compete in classes such as WP - I am all about working horses and classes that show that ability in the horse. So because of that, it has no use and would be counter-productive for me. However if you want to teach it go ahead - But also be aware that it may be a downside when (if) selling that horse.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I know you don't, my point was and still is, if the association wants it out, what is your argument to support that your decision is better then what the association is calling for?

The reason they want it out is because, for a long time, WP is the laughing stock of ridden competitions. The last thing they need is a completely backwards training method that makes the horse useless if it is sold to a different discipline. No one ever said it was cruel (unless the trainer really uses the spur... which I've seen), but WP was supposed to be the 'foundation' for other things such as cow work, reining, whatever. There's not much you can do when the horse slows down when you ask him to go.

And wild_spot is correct... the back up is 'forward', just in a different direction. Most Classical dressage instructors will have you 'block' forward motion with some rein and your seat, and redirect the energy out the back end.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Most Classical dressage instructors will have you 'block' forward motion with some rein and your seat, and redirect the energy out the back end.


Yup, exactly what I do, I just use different words


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

mayfieldk said:


> I know you don't, my point was and still is, if the association wants it out, what is your argument to support that your decision is better then what the association is calling for?
> 
> The reason they want it out is because, for a long time, WP is the laughing stock of ridden competitions. The last thing they need is a completely backwards training method that makes the horse useless if it is sold to a different discipline. No one ever said it was cruel (unless the trainer really uses the spur... which I've seen), but WP was supposed to be the 'foundation' for other things such as cow work, reining, whatever. There's not much you can do when the horse slows down when you ask him to go.
> 
> And wild_spot is correct... the back up is 'forward', just in a different direction. Most Classical dressage instructors will have you 'block' forward motion with some rein and your seat, and redirect the energy out the back end.


You don't get it. :roll:

The association wants horses to go around with forward motion, impulsion & collection in a quiet, willing manner without constant interference (cueing) from the rider. That's what I'm training my horses to do. The western world calls using your seat & legs to cue a horse a "spur stop", but it isn't all that different from the methods of other disciplines.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ I'm sorry but I don't know of any other discipline that uses leg pressure to ask for a stop - And i've ridden in a lot. Which disciplines use a similar method?


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Dressage. You close the leg around the horse, and sit a little back.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I have ridden a lot of dressage in my time. A spur stop is not similar to a halt in dressage. The legs are used in a halt to keep forward momentum into the halt and the seat blocks the movement. In a spur stop you put your legs on as if asking for forward - but the aim is the opposite.


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## HorseOfCourse (Jul 20, 2009)

I'm sure a spur stop isn't EXACTLY as the name implies. Even in western pleasure the seat is used a ton. From what I've read and gathered, the halt and spur stop are very similar.


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

HorseOfCourse said:


> I'm sure a spur stop isn't EXACTLY as the name implies. Even in western pleasure the seat is used a ton. From what I've read and gathered, the halt and spur stop are very similar.


 
Someone who does get it! :lol:

Actually, to stop my spur trained horse, all I have to do is say "whoa". No spur, no pulling on the reins. Pretty easy for anyone to ride.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ Then why do you train the spur stop? My horse stops of 'whoah' also - But he isn't trained with a spur stop. If it is looked down upon so much in the western world, and the end result is the SAME as a traditionally trained stop, why use it?


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> ^ Then why do you train the spur stop? My horse stops of 'whoah' also - But he isn't trained with a spur stop. If it is looked down upon so much in the western world, and the end result is the SAME as a traditionally trained stop, why use it?


I don't like to call it "spur stop". Like someone else said, it isn't EXACTLY as the name implies. I like to call it "spur trained". But even that isn't exactly a literal name for it. "Leg cued" might be a better name. 

How do you get your horse to go from an extended jog down to a regular jog? How do you remind your horse to stay collected, lift his back, and engage his hocks as he goes along? 

If at any point, you have to pull back on the reins, you've got the wrong answer. Remember, WP horses are ridden with a drape rein so we lose that line of communication (ie, no half halts). A leg cue is a subtle, yet well understood, option to replace rein contact.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> How do you get your horse to go from an extended jog down to a regular jog?


I use my blocking seat - The same one I use to halt/stop, but to a lesser extent. ANY slwing down of pace on my show horse is done via my blockign seat - I don't do western but I have a few champion pleasure ribbons - A class where you must ride with draped reins, one handed, but in a snaffle. I have less influence like that than I would have if I switched the snaffle for a curb - I can do all manouvres with a draped rein in a snaffle that I can with my usual contact. My leg always means either forward or lateral - My seat can mean forward, maintain, OR stop/slow.



> How do you remind your horse to stay collected, lift his back, and engage his hocks as he goes along?


This I use my leg for - I ask for forward using my leg and block the actual forward movement with a slight block in my reins (not pulling - Just not giving) and just enough of a block in my seat that his forward energy moves up and into the bridle instead of being translated into speed or tempo.

I do understand that you don't literally spur your horse to stop - I was just using the name. I also (though it may appear, lol) don't really mind how you train your horse; If it's working well for you, fantastic! Who am I to try and change the way you do things? I guess I am just trying to figure out the why - When the association apparently disapproves and the results are achievable without it, what your reasons are to continue to train it? Not snarky, genuinly curious. I am still curious as to which disciplines use a similar method - I will be the first to admit I have never ridden and only seen via video any western events, so my knowledge is limited to what I learn here!


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