# Question on western pleasure bred horses



## Fowl Play

I am a dog person, but I am having to become horse educated because my daughter has the bug.:? I have a questions about horses that are bred for western pleasure. (first off, my understanding of western pleasure is minimal, but that's easier for me to research than my real questions:wink 

I am wondering why the horses are bred to have their neck stretched out rather than holding their head high? My daughter's lesson horse does this and the other two lesson horses hold their head so high and look so flashy, but the instructor said that my daughter's lesson horse is extremely well bred for western pleasure. In labradors, the build of the dog, and the conformation of the bones is critical to the dog being able to perform well in the field. I am guessing that it goes back to the original purpose and the structure is critical for the job, but I'm wondering about the history of the structure? Does that make any sense. I don't want to know that it's just for showing, because I'm sure that it wasn't just for showing, but there was a more historical purpose.


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## 7Ponies

It's not necessarily the breed, it's the training. They are taught to have a low head set. 

IMHO it looks very unnatural and I am not a fan of western pleasure today because of how absurdly slow they make these horses work. 

I agree, for a horse to use his body correctly when moving, his head needs to be up, not on the ground!

Anyway, I guess you're a labrador person  Me too. I have three of them and do agility with them.


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## Fowl Play

7Ponies said:


> It's not necessarily the breed, it's the training. They are taught to have a low head set.
> 
> IMHO it looks very unnatural and I am not a fan of western pleasure today because of how absurdly slow they make these horses work.
> 
> I agree, for a horse to use his body correctly when moving, his head needs to be up, not on the ground!
> 
> Anyway, I guess you're a labrador person  Me too. I have three of them and do agility with them.


I am a labrador person. I currently have 2 males that we use for hunting and AKC hunt tests. My next one will be a female, and I'll train her for field trials. 

I guess as a mommy, I kind of like the slowness of western pleasure. It makes me feel better to see my daughter moving slowly on the horse:wink:


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## LeahKathleen

Pleasure Horses, yes, are trained to carry their heads that way, but many of them also simply have a natural low headset bred into them.

Western riding is very very different from English. In English riding, you'll see a rider keep fairly constant contact with a horse's mouth. In Western riding, you'll see much more slack in the reins, the horse takes a lower headset, and very minimal contact with the mouth.

It's just one of the structures of Western riding.

But to answer your question, yes, many WP horses are bred with the conformation that lends itself to the low head carriage.


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## 7Ponies

I've not done hunt tests. One of my boys has his Working Certificate, but that's all the bird work I did with him because we have Alligators here and I just can't bear to have him in the water!!! Scares the crap out of me 

Is your daughter getting a horse?


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## smrobs

Most successful WP horses these days are bred with the conformation and mentality of having a low headset and slow motions. These 2 attributes are accentuated by training to what you see in the WP show ring. I am with you 7ponies, I don't much care for it either but that is off topic. Some horses also just naturally have a very low headset and that is pretty popular in all western disciplines. I prefer to have my horses carry themselves pretty close to level with the withers but some horses are just bred to carry thier heads very high and others to carry theirs very low. I have a QH that regardless of the training, he is not comfortable carrying his head level or below level. He is built to carry it up so that's what he does. On the other hand, my brother has a 4 year old filly that he just started this summer (she has no WP breeding) that very seldom raises her head above her withers. We don't train for a particular headset and just prefer to let the horses have them where it is comfortable for them (excluding peanut roller and head-in-lap, we train those away right quick).

Anyway, sorry, off topic. When WP competitions first began, they were designed to show off how controlled a horse was at all 3 gaits, how comfortable they were to ride, and how responsive they were to cues (hence the droopy reins). As the decades passed, judges began to judge the horses who carried their heads lower and moved slower as first in the classes because they look more natural and comfortable and relaxed. So people began to breed and train specifically for the low headset and slow legs. Humans that we are, we perverted the natural moving horses into what is referred to as "peanut rollers" which were horses who carried their heads no more than a few inches off the ground and moved so slow it looked like they were on the verge of death (how anyone finds that attractive I'll never know). The WP industry is getting better and moving back toward more natural looking horses but there is still a long way to go. Sorry, letting my opinions leak out again. I guess the moral of my novel is that when it started, a lower head and slower gait = a more relaxed and comfortable looking horse so that is what they started breeding for.


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## Fowl Play

SMRob, thanks, that's what I was looking for--a history lesson! So, it's the same thing as with labs. People have taken a longer legged working dog, and bred for short, squatty, belly dragging dogs, many of which won't retrieve and are scared of water. I guess it happens in all disciplines. 

7 Ponies, no, my daughter isn't getting a horse yet. Someday maybe, but for the time being, she has claimed her lesson horse pretty aggressively, and right now she's the only one riding him. We are fortunate to have found an extraordinary farm for her to ride at, and the instructor teaches her all about the horses, and responsibility, not just how to ride. Last week my daughter asked about the way he carried his head, and we were told it was because he was bred for western pleasure, but I needed to know more about it--just because I did.


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## dee

Personally, I'll probably never show any horses - most of mine are lowly grades, anyway. I have to say, thought, that I have an extreme dislike of the headset that is so popular today. The horses I used to have would never have made it in any kind of WP classes because they all carried their heads highter than six inches above the ground. I liked the movement they had, with their heads carried slightly higher than their withers, alert and looking around at everything. Nothing surprised, them, that's for sure. 

My current mare also has a higher headset. My neighbor (a showhorse snob) recommeded a tie down to force her to carry her head lower. He was NOT happy with my (unrepeatable) reply!


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## kevinshorses

dee said:


> Personally, I'll probably never show any horses - most of mine are lowly grades, anyway. I have to say, thought, that I have an extreme dislike of the headset that is so popular today. The horses I used to have would never have made it in any kind of WP classes because they all carried their heads highter than six inches above the ground. I liked the movement they had, with their heads carried slightly higher than their withers, alert and looking around at everything. Nothing surprised, them, that's for sure.
> 
> My current mare also has a higher headset. My neighbor (a showhorse snob) recommeded a tie down to force her to carry her head lower. He was NOT happy with my (unrepeatable) reply!


And they probably have a real trot and canter and no joint problems. I hate the WP crowd. Reiners are almost as bad. If you want to show with good people and have fun with a well rounded horse I would try reined cowhorse.


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## smrobs

I saw this vid earlier tonight and really liked how this horse carried himself, it is natural but still level and collected. Though he is gonna have some serious hock and stifle trouble when he is older because he doesn't pick up his pivot foot at all during a spin.





 
But I agree, I love the "ranch pleasure" type carriage and that is what I put on my horses. They are relaxed and in complete control but they can still pick up and MOVE should the need arise.


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## kevinshorses

smrobs said:


> I saw this vid earlier tonight and really liked how this horse carried himself, it is natural but still level and collected. Though he is gonna have some serious hock and stifle trouble when he is older because he doesn't pick up his pivot foot at all during a spin.
> 
> YouTube - American Quarter Horse Championships
> 
> But I agree, I love the "ranch pleasure" type carriage and that is what I put on my horses. They are relaxed and in complete control but they can still pick up and MOVE should the need arise.


That clip was better than Internet Porn!!!! I love the fence work.


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## AQHA13

Western Bred Pleasure horses are usually bred to have a lower headset, but with training the headset is even lower. It has no purpose other than looks for the show ring. The horses are not collected and could not do any other task with this headset. It couldn't cut cows, rein, or any other of the western disciplines where you see that the horses head is generally above or at wither height. English Pleasure has a similar style, a stretched out horse that is in no way collected and could not jump, do dressage, or even cross country. I personally think that both English and western pleasure are hideous.


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## kevinshorses

Amen!!!


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## FGRanch

Kevin I will have to pass the message on to my hubby!  

I love Reining Cow Horse/Working Cow Horse events. A blast to watch!


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## smrobs

kevinshorses said:


> Amen!!!


Agreed!! LOL. Great post AQHA13. Biased as I am since this is my own horse hehe, this is how I like for a horse to travel. Though I allow his head to drop a bit more if he wants it to. At least from here, he can either drop down to watch a cow or pick up to peel out at a dead run if the need arises.


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## ClassicalRomantic

WP and EP is not the same as it was 20 years ago but show me any sport that is the exact same! every sport has evolved over the years newer training ways, steroids, etc... the horse world is no different! It's starting to slowly get out of the peanut rollers which i don't see much at our local open shows anymore. I show WP just local stuff nothing big but i think a horse who carries themselves with a level head at the poll collected nicely is like poetry in motion! the horses who heads are 6 inchs from the ground and looks like they could do a somer sault any min makes me cringe! i never liked that look and never understood it but then again why does any sport change for better or for worse??


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## GottaRide

People who don't know a lot about western pleasure horses are the ones to put all the attention on the head carriage. When you start to learn about what truly makes a western pleasure horse, you start looking at the horse's legs, shoulders, hip, and back before you ever look at where the head is.


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## dee

smrobs said:


> Agreed!! LOL. Great post AQHA13. Biased as I am since this is my own horse hehe, this is how I like for a horse to travel. Though I allow his head to drop a bit more if he wants it to. At least from here, he can either drop down to watch a cow or pick up to peel out at a dead run if the need arises.


 
I absolutely LOVE the headset on your horse - it's completely natural and shows a horse that is alert and aware. This is how I let my horses carry their heads. Guess I'll never win any shows, but I still love my ponies!


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## CloudsMystique

kevinshorses said:


> And they probably have a real trot and canter and no joint problems. I hate the WP crowd. Reiners are almost as bad. If you want to show with good people and have fun with a well rounded horse I would try reined cowhorse.




Why are reiners almost as bad? I'm not disagreeing - I'm just curious because I haven't heard anything that bad about them.


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## Haley

A modern day pleasure horse that's bred specifically for the pleasure pen will not need any training or gadgets to learn to carry their head level, their conformation makes that the most comfortable headset for them. I've NEVER used any sort of gadget on my mare to force her head down.. in fact I sometimes find myself asking her to pick her head up because she gets lazy and tries to get our of work. I just have to pick up my hand slightly and she gets the message and picks herself back up.

It's really annoying when people group ALL pleasure people into the "head tying, making them go unnatural" category. There's bad seeds in every discipline. It would be like me saying everyone who does dressage does rollkur and forces their horses chin to their chest, but I don't do that. Why? Because I know not everyone who does dressage uses rollkur. 

Also is this not a "real" trot, or is my mare just faking it?


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## Fowl Play

Apparently I opened a can of worms. Sorry. This is like a field vs. bench lab debate. I have learned from it though, thanks.


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## Lily of the Valley

AQHA13 said:


> Western Bred Pleasure horses are usually bred to have a lower headset, but with training the headset is even lower. It has no purpose other than looks for the show ring. The horses are not collected and could not do any other task with this headset. It couldn't cut cows, rein, or any other of the western disciplines where you see that the horses head is generally above or at wither height. English Pleasure has a similar style, a stretched out horse that is in no way collected and could not jump, do dressage, or even cross country. I personally think that both English and western pleasure are hideous.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ times 923048102394823049203. 

English and Western pleasure are _hideous_ to me. I could _never_ show in either. I like my horse to be beautifully collected and supple, not stretched out across the ground, moving at 0.0349 miles an hour.


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## smrobs

Haley, your horse does look natural and nicely extended. It is the ones who DO force the horse into a headset they are not built for an force them to move slower than they should creating that horrible choppy, lame looking gait that give everyone else a bad rap. Like I said, they are getting better but still not where I would like to see them personally. It has also always seemed to me that the english pleasure horses generally _seem_ a bit more natural than the western pleasure horses, to my eyes anyway. :? I don't know.

It is really a matter of personal preferance I guess. Since I do more ranch type work, I like to have a horse who's head is up a little and they can see for long distances. I can't count how many times my horse has seen cattle that I missed. For the show ring, it's fine to carry it really low so long as it isn't uncomfortable or damaging to the horse but on the ranch, a horse with that carriage wouldn't be good for much. My ideal WP horse (if he were a little more extended) would look like this:









But this mare is carrying herself too high and it doesn't look natural


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## smrobs

CloudsMystique said:


> Why are reiners almost as bad? I'm not disagreeing - I'm just curious because I haven't heard anything that bad about them.


No, it just seems to be the fad right now for the reining horses to have a headset that is both lower and much more tucked than it should be with their nose way behind the vertical. Let me see if I can find a vid.


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## Haley

My mare isn't even bred to be a HUS horse (she's only 15.1hh, though she doesn't look it).. her old owner told me she thought she'd never be able to do it. We just started for fun this year and to everyone's surprise she's taken to it quite well. Her real forte' is Trail anyway, which is better than any rail class in my oppinion! Haha.

I was at a Paint show last weekend and not a _single_ horse there was 4 beating. Paint seams to have changed a lot faster than QH though. The last QH show I was at (August), quite a few of those horses looked unnatural and lame. At the APHA show though, _every_ single horse had a great cadenced lope with a deeep hock. Not the 4 beating head bobbing thing that was in a few years ago.

Now, I agree with you - that's the frame I like on pleasure horses too. Poll level with withers, nose slightly outside of the verticle, and the hind end engaged is important too. I can't stand seeing horses trailing their hind end dragging themselves around on their front end. Not a very pretty picture.

I've had people, who don't even _like_ WP comment on how natural and "true" my mare's jog is, how it actually looks like a pleasure to ride and she doesn't look like she's lame and half walking half jogging. Which is nice to hear obviously, and quite true too. I just like it when I can hopefully maybe change some peoples minds about WP and Pleasure horses. :]

Yeah, sorry about that. I just get mad when people basically say because I have a pleasure horse she MUST be un-natural and she MUST be lame and she doesn't know how to properly collect and use herself.


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## BuckOff41570

Ya know what...I love western pleasure. I've ridden dozens of diciplines and trained in several events and Western pleasure is, by far, one of the most technical and difficult to teach.

Many of those who oppose it either don't know about it or don't know about the leaps and bounds that it has come in the passed few years. It's a beautiful dicipline. 

I had the opportunity to ride with a WP trainer and train my own horse for it.
The horse I trained for it was all cow bred, but was built and moved like a pleasure horse. Not once in her training did the trainer mention head carriage. It was all and only about collection and forming the muscles to do so consistantly. Counter arcing and maintaining cadence... 

Pleasure horse build isnt about having your horse's nose hang as low as it can. It's all about the horse being comfortable and natural in a relaxed head carriage while still being able to maintain an incredible amount of collection.
It is... whether many of you think so or not... Dressage on a loose rein. 

Here's the filly, with only a short time in pleasure training. Excuse the attire-When it's cold... I dress comfy. 





 
doc delibero video by mrgunsmokeluver - Photobucket
Point being, I never asked her to drop her head. Every time I touched the reins, it was to get her shoulder up. She was a lazy horse and had days where she wanted you to hold her up.

This horse could do more than pleasure. She could also run barrels...eventually being able to clock 2D times before I stopped her training.




 
She also had an innate desire to work a cow. 

But then, on the other end, I rode another cow bred horse who simple was uncomfortable when I asked him to collect and lower his head carriage. It's easy for some horses and others, it's not. The one who had a hard time collecting, was also a 1D/2D barrel horse.


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## showgirl

GottaRide said:


> People who don't know a lot about western pleasure horses are the ones to put all the attention on the head carriage. When you start to learn about what truly makes a western pleasure horse, you start looking at the horse's legs, shoulders, hip, and back before you ever look at where the head is.


 
Very well said


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## kevinshorses

smrobs said:


> But this mare is carrying herself too high and it doesn't look natural


I disagree. She looks like she's going somewhere and has something to do when she gets there. I like both of them but if I got to choose I would pick this mare to ride over the other.


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## smrobs

No, It's not that it doesn't look natural for a horse, its that it doesn't look natural for her. She normally had a very level head carriage so I don't know if she got spooked by the camera man or the flash but that was not how she would normally carry her head. I love how extended her legs are though.

But of course, this pic was taken in the 70's, before the peanut roller look really took off.


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## Tasia

GottaRide said:


> People who don't know a lot about western pleasure horses are the ones to put all the attention on the head carriage. When you start to learn about what truly makes a western pleasure horse, you start looking at the horse's legs, shoulders, hip, and back before you ever look at where the head is.


 I second this!! ^^^


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## StylishK

AQHA13 said:


> Western Bred Pleasure horses are usually bred to have a lower headset, but with training the headset is even lower. It has no purpose other than looks for the show ring. The horses are not collected and could not do any other task with this headset. It couldn't cut cows, rein, or any other of the western disciplines where you see that the horses head is generally above or at wither height. English Pleasure has a similar style, a stretched out horse that is in no way collected and could not jump, do dressage, or even cross country. I personally think that both English and western pleasure are hideous.


I just wanted to point out that when a cutter is working a cow their head is generally low.


Anyways I'm not going to get into the whole debate but to answer the OP, the head set is breeding and comformation, combined with training to teach them that they can stay rounded up and still keep their head down. Unfortunately in order to carry a proper low head set a horse needs to be properly engaged. Yes they fall on their forehand sometimes, but so do horses with their heads sky high - being on the forehand has nothing to do with their headset. You do not have to sacrifice being on the forehand with a low head.

My gelding will be a pleasure horse one day, but look how naturally low his head set is. Sure we have worked on making him soft in the bridle, but this is a horse with less than 60 days of training on him and he wants to carry his head level/just below level. And if you look at him conformationally his neck ties in low so it makes sense. 

I like a more level head set for pleasure, but a horse like my old pleasure gelding naturally hung his head lower and it look natural. I don't agree with penalizing low heads (I mean down to the knees yes because thats not even natural) but if a horse has a bit lower head than average but the horse is moving correctly and it looks natural then it should be accepted. Just like I think if a horse carries its head a little above average because of its comfirmation then it shouldn't be penalized either.

The problem with WP at least in AQHA right now is there is so much grey area, there isn't a good enough system to picking out the right pleasure horses and you have different types of judges all over right now, they have different styles and look for different. Some of too big on forward motion, while others are still placing the horses moving too constricted. 

Here's a few nice videos to take a look at 

Here's a son of one of the best WP mares in the industry. His head, is pretty natural. 




 
Another great horse - I like this headset its pretty level, natural. This is more what you're seeing in pleasure now adays, other than the few with a naturally lower headset 




 
If you search AQHA World Show Western Pleasure you should get some nice videos, more of these horses had to qualify with a certain number of points. 

Getting an eye for pleasure takes a long time, its not as easy to pick up as something like reining which is a scored event. There are so many different styles in pleasure and its all personal prefence. 

Sorry this was long ahha


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## Mira

Ignorant.
Only word that pops into my mind when I read the posts bashing western pleasure for all of the reasons you people have stated.
Ignorant.


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## APHA MOMMA

Okay so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but actually there IS a purpose for a horse carrying their head low. I have watched plenty of Clinton Anderson training vidoes and Larry Trocha, etc. They say that you WANT the horse to carry the head low (NOT TOO LOW), but vertical with the spine, but it helps keep a stronger top line. They say the horses that carry they head high their whole life will have a weak back eventually and in some cases, the back will bow in. I have seen this many many times on horses who have carried their head high. 

Also, many QH are used for cattle ranches, if you take a horse out on the ranch and have cattle to move, not all cattle follow by the rules. If a calf or cow happens to duck under the horse, that horse needs to be collected and ready to turn and get that cow back in with the group. If a horse is out there with their head held high, I am sure they won't be as collected to do the job. A horse needs to be eye level with those cows and ready to spin on a time. So please don't judge horses that have a low headset because you think it looks rediculous. Every breed has their reason on how they carry themselves, how they were BRED to carry themselves. It is not just for show.


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## nrhareiner

This is about the height I like my horses head. The horse works well with their head at this level. However you will see them at different levels depending on not only conformation and training but also breeding plays a big role in it also.


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## TripleDStables

People are ignorant. As Mira said. Instead of bashing stuff you have no clue about, go educate yourself... Don't ask a bunch of people that THINK they know...

I personally think ignorant people shouldn't be around horses. If you don't want to learn about it first, just don't do it. Don't. Do. It. If you don't know about it, don't talk about it. 

I have no clue about pygmy marmosets. Does that mean I'm going to get online and bash them? Absolutely not. Why? Because thats what makes sense.


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## Cannoka

I wish the 70's type WP horse would return as I am contemplating retraining my 2nd level dressage horse to do trail classes and maybe some local WP classes just for fun. (Dressage burn out here  )
But the way he is built (16hh and large boned, big gaits) I might get laughed at.


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## Hunter

Mostly the super low horses heads are the new bred Quater horses, the judges look for that, I have one, and he dosn't hold his head super high, but holds it up just high enough not to look like he is sleepy..
I find that the new Quater horse style makes them look drugged, I wouldn't dought it would be so eather..


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## smrobs

In the defense of us "bashers", it is not just the head carriage that we are concentrating on, that is just the most obvious point. When I look at a WP horse that is not encouraged to really pick up and move, I see a horse that is droopy, sluggish, and lethargic with completely unnatural gaits. I was the first to admit that WP is getting better now and is moving toward more natural horses but when a normal horse can walk faster than a WP horse can lope, then there is a problem IMHO.

And just so we are all clear, there is a big difference between a horse that travels like this (level, alert, with some extension to his movement while still being collected)




 
And one that travels like this (too low, too slow, choppy, and zero extension). During a natural gait, a horse should place his off hind leg slightly in front of his inside hind leg during a canter and there should be a moment of suspension where all 4 hooves are off the ground at the same time.


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## APHA MOMMA

Yes I agree with you smrobs. When I watch the training videos they say the horses head/neck should be vertical with the spine NOT lower as shown in the bottom video. Man, that Clinton Anderson video gets me everytime, I just LOVE his methods and his horses!  Very great examples, thanks.


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## kevinshorses

StylishK said:


> Another great horse - I like this headset its pretty level, natural. This is more what you're seeing in pleasure now adays, other than the few with a naturally lower headset
> YouTube - AQHA SELECT WORLD SHOW WESTERN PLEASURE 2008
> 
> If you search AQHA World Show Western Pleasure you should get some nice videos, more of these horses had to qualify with a certain number of points.
> 
> Getting an eye for pleasure takes a long time, its not as easy to pick up as something like reining which is a scored event. There are so many different styles in pleasure and its all personal prefence.
> 
> Sorry this was long ahha


Perhaps I don't have an eye for pleasure but I can see this horse is dragging a hind leg. I had a german shepard that had hip displasia and he moved with more grace than this horse. There is probably a line in the dirt behind that horse where the foot has drug. If WP is your thing then fine but don't get butt hurt when people tell it like it is. YOur horses don't look natural or healthy but if that doesn't bother you then fine I hope you win a world championship.


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## Mira

Kevin, would you please just stop? You have shown you know next to nothing about western pleasure other than "it's unnatural, it's ugly, the horses are lame".

I am so sick of this BS, really. If you do not like it, that is FINE, I really do not care. I may not like a certain discipline but do I run around bashing it and the people that love it? NO. 

There is a distinct difference between expressing your opinion and then outright being rude/bashing. An opinion would be "I don't really like western pleasure that much. The look of the horses isn't for me." Bashing is more like what you've been doing, "Your horses don't look natural or healthy" and my personal favorite of yours "I hate the WP crowd." 

In my opinion, you are being extremely ignorant by basing your entire opinion of a discipline off a couple of horses you've seen who knows where that are bad examples. It really bothers me when people do that.

Invest N Vital Signs is a nice looking WP horse. Obviously that horse is unattractive to you for whatever reason. Does that mean that that horse is lame, in pain, has ugly movement, etc? No, because quite franky, I think the AQHA judges that decided this horse would be a World Champion know quite a bit more about WP and how it should be than YOU do. So. That being said, your views of what WP is all about are flawed, sorry to say. I'm sorry that what WP really is doesn't float your boat, I guess it's not the right discipline for you. Don't like it, don't watch. Simple.


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## BaliDoll

^ Agreed. A horse won't win if it looks lame to a judge. they are being judged on a lot more than being slow, too, and unless you understand this discipline you shouldn't really bash it. Ask questions, we'll give you our point of view but don't make assumptions that you know anything about it without competing in it yourself...
I don't like jumping because it looks EXTREMELY hard on the horses legs, but I don't BASH great jumpers, they are interesting to watch to me, and I like to learn more about it.


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## nrhareiner

Thing is watch the video. At about 1:50 when they announced the winner and she lopes off. look at the horses rear end. That might be what a winning WP looks like but if one my show horses was moving like that in the rear it would be up to MSU so fast for x rays it would not be funny. The off rear foot never leaves the ground. It never passes the lead rear foot. That is not how a horse should lope in respects to its movement. Might not be lame might not even be wrong for what WP judges look for but watch a horse moving free or even in other disciplines and they do not lope like that. Not naturally.


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## kevinshorses

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is watch the video. At about 1:50 when they announced the winner and she lopes off. look at the horses rear end. That might be what a winning WP looks like but if one my show horses was moving like that in the rear it would be up to MSU so fast for x rays it would not be funny. The off rear foot never leaves the ground. It never passes the lead rear foot. That is not how a horse should lope in respects to its movement. Might not be lame might not even be wrong for what WP judges look for but watch a horse moving free or even in other disciplines and they do not lope like that. Not naturally.


 
I'm glad I'm not just seeing things.


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## MacabreMikolaj

BaliDoll said:


> ^ Agreed. A horse won't win if it looks lame to a judge. they are being judged on a lot more than being slow, too, and unless you understand this discipline you shouldn't really bash it. Ask questions, we'll give you our point of view but don't make assumptions that you know anything about it without competing in it yourself...
> I don't like jumping because it looks EXTREMELY hard on the horses legs, but I don't BASH great jumpers, they are interesting to watch to me, and I like to learn more about it.


Yeah, but what do you do when **** near the entire industry looks lame? I've seen a few WP pleasure horses I like (Haley's Smooth And Special being one of them, even at WP she has a proper and distinct gait) and I think it's great the WP industry is moving away from the peanut pushers and the "trope" but you have to be borderline delusional to think some of those horses look natural.

And for you WP bashing US for being ignorant, why don't you educate YOURSELVES on collection and impulsion before having a snitfit? Call it what you want, call it what you will, but I can count on one hand the number of WP horses I've seen with true collection and impulsion. There's ignorance all around but true collection and impulsion doesn't magically differ from discipline to discipline it's the same in any language you want to hash it. Moving slower then a drunk snail and dragging your hind end as you go is in no sense of the word "collected". When people who don't know a horse from a dog look at a WP horse and ask "Is he hurt?" maybe it's time to question who the ignorant ones are.

Sorry, completely off topic and I am NOT bashing all WP riders. I like the changes, I've noticed the changes, I have NO issue with slow. But you'd have to be blind not to see the blatant difference in a nicely moving WP horse and these cripples being passed off as "champions". When you start INVENTING gaits, it's time to STOP.


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## BaliDoll

No I agree with what you're saying there. WP does need to change even more, I won't deny that. I'm happy with the progress it's made, and I hope it continues. Whats hurtful to us who do enjoy WP, is we are all being lumped into this "your horses look lame, it's an awful discipline!" category, and not all of us belong there.
My boyfriend, who knows nothing about horses, watched reining and said "Doesn't that hurt their back legs to be splayed out while they slide like that? It's not natural." and honestly, it's not good for their halks/legs... but we do that, too. Everything we choose to do on a horse they aren't going to do naturally, epsecially at higher levels (jumping 6ft??? when is a horse ever going to do that?!)... if they aren't in ACTUAL PAIN while performing what we'd like them to do then let it lie... to each his own!


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## Mira

BaliDoll said:


> Whats hurtful to us who do enjoy WP, is we are all being lumped into this "your horses look lame, it's an awful discipline!" category, and not all of us belong there.


Thank you! That's how I feel as well. And, I do know all about impulsion and collection, seeing as that is what I focus on with MY WP horse, Macabre, so please do not make the assumption that I do not. 

I cannot watch the end of that video due to the fact that I have dial-up and it would take a few hours to load.


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## BuckOff41570

smrobs said:


> In the defense of us "bashers", it is not just the head carriage that we are concentrating on, that is just the most obvious point. When I look at a WP horse that is not encouraged to really pick up and move, I see a horse that is droopy, sluggish, and lethargic with completely unnatural gaits. I was the first to admit that WP is getting better now and is moving toward more natural horses but when a normal horse can walk faster than a WP horse can lope, then there is a problem IMHO.
> 
> And just so we are all clear, there is a big difference between a horse that travels like this (level, alert, with some extension to his movement while still being collected)
> YouTube - Clinton Anderson Riding Diez Bridleless
> 
> And one that travels like this (too low, too slow, choppy, and zero extension). During a natural gait, a horse should place his off hind leg slightly in front of his inside hind leg during a canter and there should be a moment of suspension where all 4 hooves are off the ground at the same time.
> YouTube - This Invitations Fancy


I agree with you on this one. I don't mind the jog of the second horse, but the lope isnt fluid. Fortunately, that's something that could be easily fixed by just letting the horse extend and ride up into the bridle. 

There will always be opinions on this dicipline or that dicipline. I have mine... I know what I'd rather see...but that doesnt make the dicipline itself an abomination. That just means that it has room to grow and evolve.


POINT being... sitting on a dinky little WP thread and bashing the heck out of the dicipline isnt going to change one single thing. Don't like it? Want it to be more natural? Get out there and make a difference! 
If you can do it better...SHOW US!
I know several AQHA judges... they judge what they can with what they have in the class. Change the competitors and you'll change the dicipline. 
Someone has to stand up and get out there to change the appearance of these horses. 

Bashing will get no one anywhere. If you feel that passionately about the look/movement of these horses, be pro-active!... Not just another computer jockey...


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## MacabreMikolaj

Ok thanks Mira and BaliDoll. I may have overcalculated what was being said and overreacted a bit. I definately never make it a point to bash other disciplines (well, except for big lick TWH, I just can't keep my mouth shut no matter which way you want to view that monstrosity) and I really enjoy the principals of WP. I just get really annoyed when people defend the awkward four beat way of moving - I mean, if you like it, that's fine, but don't claim it's something it's not.

I'm so happy to hear you guys enjoy making a difference  Haley sure changed my views on WP with her gorgeous little mare, I just love watching videos of them because she has so much forward and natural movement while still being perfectly slow and relaxed. And she WINS on her, so that makes me even happier!


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## Fowl Play

When I started this thread, I wanted background, not a debate. I'm disappointed in the direction this thread has gone. I know that the WP discipline has evolved, just like everything, but what I really wanted to know is what the original purpose was. As a parent of a young kid on a big horse, I appreciate the pace that WP riding encourages, and I appreciate the encouragement to use the entire body to control the horse, rather than ranking on the bit. I did not want to hear all the bashing. Not exactly the intro to this board I was hoping for.:-(


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## BaliDoll

Macabre: I agree with the TWH thing, but that's for another thread, lol. Thanks for understanding. I have NEVER defended the four beat movement, I do think horses should actually MOVE in the ring and it does make me angry when a horse who isn't truly loping wins. So many look like that though, that the whole industry went that way so it's almost like what they are judging now, sadly. I used to place on my mare who four beated, and it upset me. I didn't win, but when I'd watch video played back of her trotting in her hind and doing some weird pick up thing with her front, lol, I went home and kept trying for more collection and impulsion, despite the fact we were doing fine how we are. It's not good for horses to get away with moving like that.
I think that if more people get out there with horses that truly are good movers, it'll be a sort of revolution. It's starting now, and hopefully it continues. Judges can't exactly *love* watching a class that slow... lol

Fowl Play: I'm sorry you feel like this thread went the wrong way, WP has a lot of debate around it, so it was bound to happen. If no one answered your question, Wiki I think has a nice summary of what the true GOAL of the class is: *Western Pleasure* is a western style competition at horse shows that evaluates horses on manners and suitability of the horse for a relaxed but collected gait cadence and relatively slow speed of gait, along with calm and responsive disposition. The horse is to appear to be a "pleasure" to ride and very comfortable, while being very smooth.
Basically it's the most responsive to as little cue from the rider as possible, who stays slow and mellow without making a fuss while changing gaits (ie: lifting his head, swishing his tail), wins. We want the horses to look like they are fun and easy to ride! I am happy your daughter likes WP, and it is the perfect class for a young western rider to begin in. I started in it at 13&under and had a great time!  Anything else you wanted to know about it? I feel bad that you got a bad taste in your mouth about HF!!!


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## MacabreMikolaj

Yeah terribly sorry about that OP :-( Sometimes that tends to happen on a public forum, and really, it does serve to further educate people! It makes me happy to have met the people in WP on this board who enjoy it for all the right reasons, so I learned something! That's never bad in my opinion, so please stick around! You'll find a lot of these topics that seem to go the "wrong way" actually end up containing oodles of good information, you just need a sifter sometimes! :wink:


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## StylishK

Fowl Play said:


> When I started this thread, I wanted background, not a debate. I'm disappointed in the direction this thread has gone. I know that the WP discipline has evolved, just like everything, but what I really wanted to know is what the original purpose was. As a parent of a young kid on a big horse, I appreciate the pace that WP riding encourages, and I appreciate the encouragement to use the entire body to control the horse, rather than ranking on the bit. I did not want to hear all the bashing. Not exactly the intro to this board I was hoping for.:-(


If there was an award for the most picked on discipline it would be western pleasure.

Fowlplay I'm sorry you thread turned right around into a huge debate. The sad thing is these things always start out being a GREAT education opporunity. 

An unfortunately people try and put WP in a light that its way worse than any other disciplines when its not. Every discipline is just as bad and needs just as much improvement. But honestly, if we weren't striving to get better where would we be? 


On another note... if you want to see a REALLY natural pleasure horse. He's a yearling, no rider, but his movement is completely natural.


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## BaliDoll

I really like the way he moves, a lot. My gelding when he was young looked a lot like that in his movement. His lope is nice, if it was a little more collected, but not slowed down much that would be my ideal pleasure lope... personally.


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## kevinshorses

StylishK said:


> An unfortunately people try and put WP in a light that its way worse than any other disciplines when its not. Every discipline is just as bad and needs just as much improvement. But honestly, if we weren't striving to get better where would we be?
> 
> 
> 
> We were'nt critiquing just any WP horse. The horse I was commenting on was an AQHA champion. A champion, to my thinking, exemplifies the disipline. All the critizism that I gave is right on and several people agree. The only way it will change is when judges get pressure from show directors to change the way they judge. If it's just the contestants that change it will only result in people wasting alot of money on enty fees that will not win anything.


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## GottaRide

kevinshorses said:


> We were'nt critiquing just any WP horse. The horse I was commenting on was an AQHA champion. A champion, to my thinking, exemplifies the disipline. All the critizism that I gave is right on and several people agree. The only way it will change is when judges get pressure from show directors to change the way they judge. If it's just the contestants that change it will only result in people wasting alot of money on enty fees that will not win anything.


So if you were a horse show judge, what would you like to see as your winning horse? Please enlighten us.


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## BaliDoll

Yes, I agree with GottaRide. You've said everything that so WRONG about western pleasure horses today, let's see what you'd like them to look like. I honestly don't think you'll get many people here saying they LOVE how that AQHA champ moves, I am a WP rider and I wouldn't want my horse to move like that. 
Maybe I am in some sort of weird gray area on the topic because my horse was started as a reining horse, by us, and was then taught to slow down and do the show pony game. We didn't WIN in APHA classes but we did very well... and I won all the open shows I took him to before going into APHA while we trained for WP. So, not all WP horses are like that one. Yes, it's a champion and that should mean that he's the prototype, but honestly a lot more goes into AQHA judging than how the horse performs, hate to say it.


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## BaliDoll

and just to add this, which I know no one asked me but I wanted to share the video to show not all pleasure horses "Look lame and drag their legs", this is the trainer (old family friend) who helped me convert Bali into a pleasure horse. I think his horses are how a pleasure horse should look, NOT the AQHA champ video...




His horses actually move, while still being ideal pleasure horses. IMO. and he's a APHA world champion trainer, several times over.


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## BuckOff41570

kevinshorses said:


> StylishK said:
> 
> 
> 
> An unfortunately people try and put WP in a light that its way worse than any other disciplines when its not. Every discipline is just as bad and needs just as much improvement. But honestly, if we weren't striving to get better where would we be?
> 
> 
> 
> We were'nt critiquing just any WP horse. The horse I was commenting on was an AQHA champion. A champion, to my thinking, exemplifies the disipline. All the critizism that I gave is right on and several people agree. The only way it will change is when judges get pressure from show directors to change the way they judge. If it's just the contestants that change it will only result in people wasting alot of money on enty fees that will not win anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think your right here. I think your so focused on tearing it down... your views are clouded.
> 
> First off...judges have been educated,scolded, and told. They know what they are to be placing and they are placing those horses.
> 
> You HAVE to change the horses competing or you'll not have any change.
> 
> I was curious, because I love western pleasure and painfully want it to grow and evolve to become a better dicipline, so I went to a western pleasure show/futurity. I was floored. Couldnt have been happier with the way those judges judged. An arena FULL of horses...they overlooked the peanut rollers, the crab crawls, and the walk-pauses... they placed the BEST horses in the feild at the top of the pack. Then, they went back through in the line up and critiqued each horse for the crowd.
> They pointed out the lack of cadence in the horses, the false gaits, excessively low head carriages... I COULD HAVE MARRIED THESE JUDGES!
> FINALLY... PROGRESS!
> 
> Ya know... that's all you need to look at right now...progress. It's great to be realistic and see what HAS to be done... but it's a dicipline that "evolved" into the peanut roller over a span of time. People were conditioned to see and favor what they are now trying to change.
> 
> You know what I like about one of the other videos posted on a pleasure champion...you see her loping down the rail and she passes...yes passes another horse. A big bay horse. The bay's lope was far far more artificial...and painfully stood out as they loped down the rail in the same frame.
> 
> No, the horse isnt perfect. I don't think thats an acheivable goal. I think the horse is a sign of progress.
> 
> If you have a horse that is a pretty mover and has a good mind...you CAN go in and win. They don't need the lower than low head carriage, or the cripplingly slow gaits.
> 
> Talk to a judge/trainer... extension is just as important as anything else.
> 
> Anyway... I'll stop rambling now. lol
> My point is just that... I'm proud of the progress THUS far...and I'm very excited to see where the horses are just a hop, skip, and jump from now.
Click to expand...


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## nrhareiner

It comes down to the judge can not judge what is not there. However you have to look at it from the other side too. If you have a horse that is what it should be and the judge over looks you and you consistently do not place then those horses are going to stop coming as it is a wast of money. So when they do come the judges MUST place them high or nothing will change.


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## Kiara

I am a little confused and was wondering if you guys could explain something to me: For collection the whole body has to be used and collected, including the head. My trainer explained it as recycling the energy (for English head set). So how does the WP headset contribute or take part in collection? I kinda struggle to see how the low headset is part of the collection, as to me it seems to let out the "energy" if that makes sense. If someone can explain that to me, I'd appreciate it.


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## smrobs

Stylish, that is a wonderful example of a naturally slow travelling horse. What I really like about him is that he is slow and cadenced but still has some pep in his step. He is comfortable in the way that he moves. His legs stay a little too straight for me but there is really nothing that anyone could do about that and besides, that is completely a personal preferance. I like a horse with a little more action but I understand that the low action legs are what is preferred in the WP world.

Fowl, I really apologize for helping to start a debate on your thread. Due to some past experiences and my own personal preferances, I have some issues with the discipline in general but that doesn't mean that it is, in whole, a bad discipline. I understand the amount of training it takes to make a winning WP horse and am in no way doubting their training. Most of them are very well trained horses, just not in a way that I personally deem as "useful" training. I love a horse that is calm and collected at all gaits and very responsive to cues but I also like for them to really be able to pick up to top speed or drop down to cut a cow in the space of less than a stride and WP horses in general are not physically able to do that. My big thing is that if they naturally travel slow and level, then just teach them to carry a rider and let them travel slow and level. Too many trainers want them too slow and too low; thus the creation of the running walk 4-beat jog and the trope. Like Allie said, too many create collection without impulsion and that is just a catastrophe to watch.


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## GottaRide

nrhareiner said:


> It comes down to the judge can not judge what is not there. However you have to look at it from the other side too. If you have a horse that is what it should be and the judge over looks you and you consistently do not place then those horses are going to stop coming as it is a wast of money. So when they do come the judges MUST place them high or nothing will change.


 
Show us an example of what a WP horse should be in the judge's eyes (if you were the judge). Help us understand your ideal.


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## nrhareiner

My Ideal horse can slide 35 feet and go from full speed to a slow nice lope. So what I look for would be a lot different then what someone else would look for.

My point is that if you do not present the judge with anything BUT those horses who drag their hind end and lope like their lame and drag their noise on the ground the judge has nothing else to judge.


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## StylishK

nrhareiner --- I love those ones =P 

Kiara: a WP horse has to be EXTREMELY collected in order to be able to keep themselves rounded up and moving correctly. 

I do dressage and reining... and I have an up and coming pleasure horse.

Getting a dressage horse to collect like a reining horse or pleasure horse is really similar. 
You go from the hind end up. You get the hind end working, the back round, the shoulders lifted up, and then the headset just falls into its natural place, this is where you get the difference; Most dressage horses have a higher neck, reiners my ideal at least is level, and pleasure horses I like level or just below level (pretty much the same headset I like on my reiners).

Now when I first started on dressage I ended up getting a more stock-style head set on the dressage horse. Why? Well I find in dressage its up, back, and hold (softly). Reiners/Pleasure at least for me I pick straight up and give back. 

I think the reason a horses head gets low is because we give them the drape to do so. When I pick up, hold and drive on my reiners their headset natural elevates a little bit. When I release they soften down into it. 
I think another difference is conformation. Generally your average english horse comformationally is built a little more up hill which their neck tied in here. Our average western horse is built a little bit down hill (although you try not too breed for that) and the big factor is their neck ties in lower.

Don't think pleasure horses level engery, impulsion or collection. Because they don't AT ALL. In order to move correctly, you need to have all of that. It's just that engery, impulsion and collection is molded in a different way than most english horses.


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## QHChik

StylishK said:


> nrhareiner --- I love those ones =P
> 
> Kiara: a WP horse has to be EXTREMELY collected in order to be able to keep themselves rounded up and moving correctly.
> 
> I do dressage and reining... and I have an up and coming pleasure horse.
> 
> Getting a dressage horse to collect like a reining horse or pleasure horse is really similar.
> You go from the hind end up. You get the hind end working, the back round, the shoulders lifted up, and then the headset just falls into its natural place, this is where you get the difference; Most dressage horses have a higher neck, reiners my ideal at least is level, and pleasure horses I like level or just below level (pretty much the same headset I like on my reiners).
> 
> Now when I first started on dressage I ended up getting a more stock-style head set on the dressage horse. Why? Well I find in dressage its up, back, and hold (softly). Reiners/Pleasure at least for me I pick straight up and give back.
> 
> I think the reason a horses head gets low is because we give them the drape to do so. When I pick up, hold and drive on my reiners their headset natural elevates a little bit. When I release they soften down into it.
> I think another difference is conformation. Generally your average english horse comformationally is built a little more up hill which their neck tied in here. Our average western horse is built a little bit down hill (although you try not too breed for that) and the big factor is their neck ties in lower.
> 
> Don't think pleasure horses level engery, impulsion or collection. Because they don't AT ALL. In order to move correctly, you need to have all of that. It's just that engery, impulsion and collection is molded in a different way than most english horses.


 
THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. I love your answer, every bit of it.


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## BaliDoll

GottaRide said:


> Show us an example of what a WP horse should be in the judge's eyes (if you were the judge). Help us understand your ideal.


Yes, can someone please actually DO this instead of just go back to complaining? I understand, NRHA, you are a reiner and you PERSONALLY don't have an ideal pleasure horse... but if you were a judge what would you want to see out there? Is there any video of a pleasure horse you DO like? Because if not it's sort of pointless that you're even commenting, if you don't like a discipline you don't like it, let it be!

I don't mean all that as rude, I am just tired of reining people coming to this thread and saying "your horses can't move!"... it's a different discipline, they aren't going to move like your horses in the show ring. Get used to it. It doesn't mean all pleasure horses are uncollected messes....


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## kevinshorses

I would like a pleasure horse that would lope properly, trot properly and walk like it has somewhere to be. I could care less if it's head is high or low as long as it is moving properly.


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## nrhareiner

What I would want to see out of a Western PLEASURE class is a horse that actually looks like it would be a pleasure to ride. One that would cover a bit of ground but not fast. One that you could go out and just enjoy the ride and see the sights. Those horses do not even look like they would be a pleasure to ride and that is what they are suppose to be a pleasure.

The definition of a reiner is to be willingly guided. A WP horse should be a pleasure to ride. 

Take a look at this video. Yes it is a reining video. Get to about 1:20 into it when the horse goes into the small slow circle. Now that is the way I believe a WP horse should move. Perhaps a bit slower but still moving out. That is a nice collected slow lope that is easy to ride and sit. It covers a bit of ground but not so fast that if you wanted to enjoy the sights you could easily do it. 







For a WP horse One Hot Krymsun is better them most. At least he is not dragging his rear. He is moving out his trot looks like a trot his lope looks like a lope. I would still like to see a bit more forward momentum.


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## BaliDoll

I think the whole "Pleasure to ride" definition is left to opinion too much...

I like the vid of the pleasure horse you showed, very nice movement. That's what I aim for with my horse.


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## StylishK

NRHA reiner... I have an OHK colt. He can be a bit of a pain in the but sometimes but he's whickedly talented movement wise. He's extremely natural. (A little bit better front leg than his daddy though)


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## nrhareiner

Yes he looks like he would be nice to ride. You could go out and enjoy a day out on the trails or park and just enjoy the ride. Not so fast that you can not enjoy the ride but not so slow that it takes you all day to get a mile down the road.


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## nrhareiner

StylishK said:


> NRHA reiner... I have an OHK colt. He can be a bit of a pain in the but sometimes but he's whickedly talented movement wise. He's extremely natural. (A little bit better front leg than his daddy though)



I like the way he moves. Has some nice forward movement. Is using himself well. He looks like once he is finished he will be a nice horse to show. Epically if he keeps that nice forward movement.


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## Mira

I'd just like to point out that WP horses do not have just _one_ speed in each gait. 
I don't hop on my wp horse after I lounge and say "okay, time to go to work and go slow, let's hit the rail". Every time I ride, I start out with figure 8s. Walk, long trot, forward lope (I say forward as in, it definitely wouldn't fly in a wp class), stop, forehand turn, turn on the haunches, sidepass, etc. He tells me when he's ready to rock back and do his job. Then we go to slower work, asking for a show appropriate jog and lope.

I do _reining_ patterns with my wp horse at local shows when they are offered (so equestrian team shows and the county fair). If you're one of those 'wp horses doing reining' haters, think it's a disgrace to the discipline to have a wp horse doing, please keep it yourself. Yes, I have run into these types of people. Anyway. My horse can go from a faster lope down to a wp speed lope, and vice versa. No, he doesn't go as fast as actual reining horses do, he doesn't spin, and he doesn't do rollbacks. I do it for fun, and we actually do very well and place high. 

Point is, wp horses can and do go faster than what you see in the ring.


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## nrhareiner

I personally think horses would benefit very much from reining training just like english horses do from dressage training. I wish more horses and riders would give reining a try. It is fun and something different to do. I show my reiners in other things for fun too. However what I do competitively is reining and reined cow horse. Although I can get my horses to slow down they have too much leg action to really do well in WP and I find that the extra leg action helps perform the reining meneuvers so that is not something I wish to change.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I agree, when I watch that video of One Hot Krymsun, I see what I think is an ideal WP horse. He's slow and relaxed, but he has this natural spring to his step that makes him look like he's not dead. You can clearly see his gaits (I hate it when a horse is jogging in a fashion that you actually have to watch the foot falls to tell if he's even walking or jogging), and he has beautiful movement with good impulsion.

He's a gorgeous animal and it brightens my day to watch vids like that!


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## BaliDoll

MacabreMikolaj said:


> You can clearly see his gaits (I hate it when a horse is jogging in a fashion that you actually have to watch the foot falls to tell if he's even walking or jogging)[/quote]
> 
> I agree on that note, and also that OHK is a nice horse. He's what I would want to see more of out there too. I think most of us WP riders are on a similar page as y'all... or closer to the same as what some of us believe we are.
> 
> Also wanted to say, Mira is right, WP horses aren't doing that lope, jog, and walk at home everyday. It's what they are trained to do, and competed with to do, but they don't actually do it very often. Just like reiners don't do ONLY sliding stops the entire time they ride...
> 
> NRHA, my horse was started as a reiner (I am not sure if I have said that in this thread or not) he's a homebred from my parents ranch, and they started him as a reining horse. He was gelded and given to me when he was a 2 year old for showing. He learned WP AFTER reining, and I do agree it makes them much more collected and well rounded horses!  He can do everything... and when I entered reining classes for points at shows I would usually actually win cause he'd REIN! Not do a horsemanship pattern :lol:


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## nrhareiner

For what ever reason perhaps b/c of the way reining is scored or what ever it seems that reiners tend to be much better broke a long the way of being trained. TO me these are 2 very different things. You can train a horse and that horse might not be very well broke. The time spent just braking a reiner time put in to fenese the training and the lead changed and such lends itself very well to doing other events like Western riding trail and such.

This is why I like to see people really trying reining for any discipline of horse.


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## BaliDoll

^ That I agree with. They also have to be spur trained really well, and taught to stop with seat/voice cue... which is a handy little trick to have.


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## raywonk

This is for the OP. No one has pointed this out to you the major part of head seat is where the neck comes out of the shoulders. Look at your gaited horses like the TWH that tend to Carie their heads straight up. Look at where their neck comes out of their shoulders and then look at a QH. There was a pic of a gray horse that carried its head and neck hire look at it and thin at one of the pic of the other horses carrying their heads and beaks lower. You will see their also what I am talking about. No mater how much you train some horses breeds can not career level and some can not Carie high.


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## sarahconnelly

I'm really not a fan of showing, my family and I are into Natural Horsemanship, I have Tennessee Walking horse and a QH, headset isn't a big deal to us and the horse should carry his/her head where it's comfortable, it's really cruel how people "train" their horse to have perfect headset and gaits (TWH)


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## farmpony84

Welcome to the board OP - don't apoligize for your question. It was a good question and you got a good answer from... Smrobs... I think it was (I read it several pages ago).

As for the debate, try asking a question about NH or Dressage! :shock:

This forum really is a great place to ask questions as our members do share a wealth of knowledge. As long as opinion. 

I for one happen to love western pleasure. I am excited that we are moving towards a more forward moving lope and a slightly higher headset. I wish we could get there a bit faster but anytime changes occurs, it takes time.

My guy walks, trots, and jogs with a naturally low headset. You'll notice the way his neck is attached to his body...


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