# Sooty AND Roan?



## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Hey everyone.

I bought my QH cross mare in the middle of winter, when her coat was very thick and full. I was 100% sure she was a buckskin at the time of purchase.

Now that spring is here and her true coat is beginning to show, I'm not so sure... Since she started shedding I first began to see signs of sooty -- and now, a few weeks later, am I seeing roaning as well? She she gets nicks/cuts, the hair grows back buckskin, like what happens to all roans in these cases.

I believe her base coat is still buckskin - her legs, chest, and face are still a rich golden colour, the same colour as my buckskin gelding. However, she has both black and white hairs intermingled. The black is where you would normally see sooty - on the face, neck, and chest area. It creates some really nice dapples. The 'roaning' is starting to become more prominent on her neck and rear end as well since she started shedding, and it's only spreading. Lately since I've been brushing her, she is only shedding white roan hairs.

I know sooty and roan both work on a buckskin base... But can BOTH be present at once? I'm not a genetic expert. 

Here are some photos taken approx last week after she was just turned out to pasture after a ride and brush, so she is NOT dirty.


















This is what she looked like when I bought her. As you can see, her coat was much more of a consistent colour, with a bit of sooty in there (she has a few dark dirty spots in this picture). She looks MUCH different now! Almost an entirely different colour.










What do you guys think? Any input is appreciated!


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'd guess brown-based buckskin (which often appears sooty) and roan.

You can test for brown and roan if you're curious, but there's no test for sooty.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I could be very wrong, but to me she looks like she's greying out. I'd pull some tail hairs and do some color testing.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Ohhhh she is pretty! Are either one of her parents roan? You need at least one roan parent to have a roan. But, not sure if I see roan. Roans will have a darker head.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I could be very wrong, but to me she looks like she's greying out. I'd pull some tail hairs and do some color testing.


That was my immediate guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## evilc123 (Jul 17, 2012)

I see a sooty dappled buckskin. She's a beauty!


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

evilc123 said:


> I see a sooty dappled buckskin. She's a beauty!


That's pretty much what I thought she was as well. I saw a lot of pictures of her from the summer before I bought her and she was this same mysterious colour! I distinctly remember asking the previous owner what colour she was via email but I never got a response... Maybe they didn't know either!

In the winter, she only seems to grow a buckskin coat with a touch of sooty. But in the spring/summer, she sheds it all and becomes this strange colour. I'm not 100% sure about this because I've never had a horse that was grey... Can horses become grey from any colour they are born from? What age do they grey out? (She's 8). 

To me, it looks very similar to a roan - when her skin gets damaged, the hair grows back the base colour (which is buckskin). This happens with roans I thought? I'm not sure what happens to grey horses in this case.

Thanks everyone for the input, I think she is beautiful regardless, I'm just curious.  She really can't decide what colour she wants to be.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Here are some more pictures. These were taken about 2-3 weeks ago, more white hairs have appeared since then. But if you look closely, you will see the hairs on her neck and cheek as well as her hindquarters. So far this only seems to happen during season changes - do horses that are greying out become more and more grey per each spring?

:| It's so hard to tell in these pictures because of her mane, but her neck has very noticeable white/greyness that spreads to her chest as well. You can definitely see it in the first picture I posted.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

She is not greying out by any means. I would say that the sooty complexion is causing the base color to appear super light and vivid. If she did not have the darker "sootyness" blended in, she would just be a light buckskin.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

WillowNightwind said:


> Here are some more pictures. These were taken about 2-3 weeks ago, more white hairs have appeared since then. But if you look closely, you will see the hairs on her neck and cheek as well as her hindquarters. So far this only seems to happen during season changes - do horses that are greying out become more and more grey per each spring?
> 
> :| It's so hard to tell in these pictures because of her mane, but her neck has very noticeable white/greyness that spreads to her chest as well. You can definitely see it in the first picture I posted.


From these pics I can't see her looking quite as grey as she did in the first pics, so ???. As for her age, yes, horses tend to grey out over time and 8 is when things usually start to become really obviously grey. They do appear lighter every year as they get more and more white until they're just grey all over. It can take several years for the whole process. BUT...LOL! Now I'm not sure. I'd be pulling some tail hairs if she was mine, just because I'd be so curious.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Definitely not a gray. 

I'd guess probably brown based. Or possibly A/At. Usually with a brownskin, they will get very dark with the start of their winter coat and remain dark all winter. This is typically of brown itself and why we always ask for winter pictures when determining if a horse is brown or not. Then they tend to shed the darkness with their spring coat and go back to gold. 

However, I do know of a couple of buckskins who were normal gold all winter, then their last coat before shedding got very dark and shed back out gold. I don't have pictures of one that changed dramatically. My own buckskin gets somewhat sooty with her first spring coat, but just looks dirty and does not get nearly that dark, which makes me think brown-based.

Mine:









I'd just be curious if you tested her for agouti to determine which one she has. (A = bay, At = brown.)


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

I'm voting At


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

I think I do plan on doing some testing, what with all the differing opinions and all. I'll probably test her for brown and roan, although I hear you need samples from at least one parent as well to test for roan? I might be wrong though. But she is one of my grade mares and I do not know her parents.



Poseidon said:


> Usually with a brownskin, they will get very dark with the start of their winter coat and remain dark all winter. This is typically of brown itself and why we always ask for winter pictures when determining if a horse is brown or not. Then they tend to shed the darkness with their spring coat and go back to gold.


Thing is, she isn't going gold - she's becoming roany. Or she's 'frosting'. The gold is actually _going away_. She was gold in the winter, has shed that gold winter coat, and has become a very roany looking brown buckskin. The white hairs are very apparent and cover the areas that cover most roans - body (except the shoulder and chest), neck, and legs up to the knees. Her head is darker as is her base colour, buckskin.

To clarify, this is her in the winter... Clearly a buckskin, with a touch of sooty on the neck/face.










Here are some more pictures, taken yesterday in the bright barn light. This is right after a ride and a good brushing.


















































































This horse has me so stumped. :| Looks like colour testing is the only way to go at this point.


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

Classic roan doesn't frost though. It covers the entire body except the head and legs and the legs have classic upside down V shaped points.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

My point was that this could easily be her "immediate spring coat" and will lighten up as that sheds out. That was my example with mine: under her winter coat is a bunch of dark hairs as her winter coat sheds. As that goes away, she goes back to gold.

She may just get very dark as she sheds, then will lighten up as this coat sheds. I am on the fence about roan actually being there and would love for you to keep posting pictures as she changes color through these sheds.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Looks like she may be rabicano. Definitely not true roan.

http://equinegenetics.blogspot.com/2010/02/rabicano-not-roan.html


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not rabicano. Rabicano doesn't concentrate on the top line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

You make a very good point Poseidon. My own roan mare goes through some dramatic color changes. Seeing those pictures again and seeing what look like "corn spots" makes me lean toward roan. Roan on buckskin is often hard to see my mare's sire was buckskin roan.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

On lighter colors like palomino and buckskin, the more obvious signs of roan are the inverted V on the legs where it goes into solid color. Hers would be even more obvious with the color change from yellow to black, but I'm still 50/50 on roan for her.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I think smokey brown roan... Even in her 'gold buckskin' winter coat you can see her muzzle shows warm cinnamon tones associated with the brown gene (At)


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

She is stunning. Subbing to hopefully get an answer


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Okay everyone.

I know it's been a while, but I wanted to wait things out. It was still winter when the last pictures were taken and I wanted to see what would happen after she had shed.

So this is Sparrow in her TRUE colours. (I will post more in the replies, I'm on my phone).

As you can see, still sooty, still white haired, still a buckskin.

What IS SHE EVEN.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

White hind quarters.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

White on both sides of the neck, which makes me skeptical about sun bleaching as her mane only falls one way.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Everything is mostly visible on her hind quarters.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Wow, how interesting... Subbing


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