# What is correct for showmanship?



## PinkHorse (Jan 18, 2009)

beau159 said:


> The pattern had something like 3 cones in a straight line. You were supposed to walk from A to B. Stop at B. Pivot 360 degrees. Trot from B to C. Then set up for the judge.
> 
> I think that she said she docked some people who stopped in the wrong place at the cone. Most people (myself included) stopped when my human body was in line with the cone. If I remember right, she said that the horse hasn't arrived at the cone yet, and that the correct way to do it is to stop with the cone in the center of the horse's body.


I would respectfully disagree with the judge in this instance. In a straight line pattern like this, I would set my body even with the first cone and use the same placement for all subsequent manoevers. 




> Then at a different show I went to, a different judge said something else. This particular pattern wanted you to stop at the cone, pivot 90 degrees, and then head for the judge and set up there. She said that you want the cone lined up with the BACK of the horse's body, so that when you pivot 90 degrees, you are still "in line" between those two cones to head straight for the judge.


I kind of agree with the judge on this one but you should be more concerned about correctly landing your horse's hind end in line with the judge so that you are straight to him/her when you complete the 90 degree turn. The cone in this pattern might have been a well placed marker but you shouldn't rely on it being in the right spot in other patterns.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

I agree with Pink...the first judge, I would disagree with entirely. If you use the horse's midsection stopping AT cone, you have gone past it.

The second judge/scenario....you need to stop with your horse's butt *even with the judge, *so when you complete your 90 degree....your HORSE is even with the judge for your walk-up to the judge. So, if the cone is not set up directly across from the judge...using the cone as your marker instead of the where the judge is actually standing, could cause problems with your horse being dead at the judge for your walk up.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Check AQHA rules regarding this matter. It is explained in the rule book.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

You stop at the cone in prep for your next maneuver you so you want to line your horses body so when they have completed the pivot turn they will depart out to judge or next cone in a straight line. Same goes to arriving at cone & setting yourself enough space from it to perform next maneuver ie: if you stop to close to cone & have to do a 360 turn make sure you have left yourself enough room that you aren't walking over cone :wink: . It is practice, practice with showmanship. each horse & person is different in their stride & response. If you have to trot & stop at cone know how many stride it takes you to come to a complete stop so you know when to ask your horse to stop precisely at cone..


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> Check AQHA rules regarding this matter. It is explained in the rule book.


It's not explained in the rule book.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

I think both scenarios are right. In showmanship, the exact location of where you're supposed to stop at each cone, and which side of the cone you should be on while performing or finishing the pattern, depends on the individual pattern and this is why you should spend some time analyzing your pattern before entering the arena.

I have always been taught to stop at a cone when the cone is in line with the horse's front legs. I usually walk or trot them about half a stride past the cone, then back them into their set up so when they are set up, their front legs are in line with the cone. However, if a pattern calls for a 90 degree turn and a straight approach to the judge, I will stop wherever I need to to make my turn and be able to approach the judge in a straight line, as indicated by the pattern. So, by following these rules of thumb, both judges would be correct, as the two situations are slightly different.

The pattern should answer a lot of your questions too. If the circle indicating a pivot is directly beside the cone, as I assume it was in the first pattern, you should give yourself enough room to stop with the cone in line with your horse's front legs and then make your pivot.

The second pattern likely showed travel beyond the cone, then a pivot circle, and a straight approach to the judge, which would tell you that you should travel just a hair past the cone to make your pivot, and finish in line with the judge. Since your horse's haunch is your pivot point, you would stop with the haunch in line with your destination.

Does that make sense?


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Thank you everyone. 

I decided to draw up the pictures in Paint to discuss the Pattern #1 scenario further. 

The pattern called for:
1) Walk from cone A to cone B
2) Pivot 360 degrees at cone B
3) Trot from cone B to cone C (judge is standing at cone C)
4) Set up for inspection
5) Pivot 90 degrees and trot away to line up.

Hmm, there's supposed to be a back up in there, but I can't quite remember where it was. I may also have gotten my trots and walks backwards, but that shouldn't effect the concept of what we are trying to discuss. 











So is the general consensus to stop at the cones when your horse's front feet lined up to the cone?

So you would have your horse's front feet lined up with Cone A. Then you would walk to Cone B and stop with your horse's front feet lined up with Cone B? Do your pivot and then stop at Cone C with your horse's front feet lined up with it?

Yes, of course you want to leave enough room between your horse and the cone so that when you make your pivot, you don't run over the cone. 



I think we seem to be in agreement for Pattern #2. I'll post it anyway for visualization. 

1) Walk from Cone A to Cone B. 
2) Pivot 90 degrees.
3) Trot from Cone B to Cone C (where the judge is located)
4) Set up for the judge. 
5) Pivot 270 degrees. 
6) Trot to line up. 

Apparently the backing up must not be important to me because I can't quite remember where it was in this pattern either!! Haha.












Makes sense to stop at Cone B with your horse's hind legs lined up with the cone, so that when you do your 90 degree pivot, you are aimed right for Cone C and you can trot straight toward it. 

If there any preference on how close you should stop in front of Cone C? Just a few feet?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

kiltsrhott said:


> I think both scenarios are right. In showmanship, the exact location of where you're supposed to stop at each cone, and which side of the cone you should be on while performing or finishing the pattern, depends on the individual pattern and this is why you should spend some time analyzing your pattern before entering the arena.
> 
> I have always been taught to stop at a cone when the cone is in line with the horse's front legs. I usually walk or trot them about half a stride past the cone, then back them into their set up so when they are set up, their front legs are in line with the cone. However, if a pattern calls for a 90 degree turn and a straight approach to the judge, I will stop wherever I need to to make my turn and be able to approach the judge in a straight line, as indicated by the pattern. *So, by following these rules of thumb, both judges would be correct, as the two situations are slightly different.
> *
> ...


 Actually, the first judge said....the stop should be at the center of the horse's body, and that is incorrect as the horse's front legs have gone beyond the cone. If you are doing SMS at an AQHA show and you stopped with the cone at the center of the horse....you are toast.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Just bumpin' this up for other opinions.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Pattern 1 - I would stop in shoulder alignment with the cone. 

Pattern 2 - I would stop hip alignment with the the cone.

Local show judges, take them or leave them. I've had a LSJ put someone above me in a class with a DQable offense (not cantering in a longeline class, it was plainly obvious). LSJ also do that stupid quartering stuff where they try to "trick you" which I find asinine. 

Honestly I don't think I could think up a scenario where you line your horse's barrel up with the cone, and if there was it would be a super complicated pattern at the upper levels where maybe you had to pivot to an off-alignment judge.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> Local show judges, take them or leave them. I've had a LSJ put someone above me in a class with a DQable offense (not cantering in a longeline class, it was plainly obvious).


Indeed. At the show where I did that 2nd pattern, in the halter class earlier that morning, the guy who took 1st place with his horse was wearing spurs. To my knowledge, wearing spurs for halter or showmanship is a disqualification. He had a nice horse, no doubt, but he technically should have been DQ'ed. The judge let it slide.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

beau159 said:


> Indeed. At the show where I did that 2nd pattern, in the halter class earlier that morning, the guy who took 1st place with his horse was wearing spurs. To my knowledge, wearing spurs for halter or showmanship is a disqualification. He had a nice horse, no doubt, but he technically should have been DQ'ed. The judge let it slide.


I don't think there is a rule about wearing spurs in those classes, but it's kind of dumb because you aren't riding the horse....LOL.

Anyway, I tried to find some clinic vids on SMS on Youtube and found a couple. If you want to search "showmanship clinic"...and the Youtube user's name is Sillypony....they had posted a clinic. There were SOME things the judge said I questioned, but for the most part she was correct. And both patterns were similar to the one you explained. In the first pattern there was a transition at the second cone and the participant did is correctly....when her horse's front leg was pretty much at the cone.

She also explained what I said in an earlier post....in those L shaped patterns where the judge is off to the side and you are making either a 90 degree, or 270 and higher.....WATCH where the judge is, and not the cone.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks! I'll have to take a look at those. 

As far as the spurs go, I tried to look in the AQHA rulebook and one thing it does say is:
* SHW379. Disqualifications (should not be placed) include:*


 Loss of control of horse that endangers exhibitor, other horses or exhibitors, or judge including the horse escaping from the exhibitor
 Failure of exhibitor to wear correct number in a visible manner
 Willful abuse
 Excessive schooling or training, *or use of artificial aids*
 Knocking over the cone or going off pattern
 Never performing specific gait
 Over turning more than 1/2 turn of designated turn


If I remember correctly, spurs fall under the "artificial aids" category. 

I know for sure in the 4H rule books that it does specifically say that spurs are prohibited for halter and showmanship classes.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Well, the way that it phrased is says "_use_ of artificial aids". If you're just wearing spurs in a showmanship class, you're not using them in the class. There is no way to make use of spurs in an in-hand class. With that said, it is up to the judge to interpret the rule book and make a call, so you could be DQed or not based on the judge's interpretation.

My sister was disqualified from a driving class for wearing a pair of English spurs in the class. She had been in a riding class and forgot to take them off before hitching up for her pleasure driving class. Though there were no specifics in the rule book about having spurs on your boots, the judge deemed them a safety hazard and dismissed her from the class. A showmanship judge could easily do the same, no matter what is spelled out in the rule book.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

beau159 said:


> Thanks! I'll have to take a look at those.
> 
> As far as the spurs go, I tried to look in the AQHA rulebook and one thing it does say is:
> *SHW379. Disqualifications (should not be placed) include:*
> ...


Artificial aids in this case would probably pertain to a crop or whip. Crops and whips are used in SMS classes for other breeds but not QH's.


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