# Dressage Legal bit for hard mouthed horse



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

QHDragon said:


> I used a pelham bit on him. Worked really well, never had any running off issues, but his mouth is very hard.
> 
> Any ideas on a good bit to try? I really am open to anything legal for my level.


If he has been in a pelham, have you tried a unjointed mullen mouth? Very simular to a pelham but has no shank or curb chain.


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

If he rode in a pelham which is a leverage bit, I dont think a mullen mouth would be strong enough. I would def. go for a jointed bit... try a full cheek maybe.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

eventnwithwinston said:


> I would def. go for a jointed bit... try a full cheek maybe.


Which is not a leverage bit either.

NO leverage bits are allowed in the lower levels of dressage.

My Quarab could not go in a regular jointed bit. Just the way his mouth was formed. He did however really like the pelham which I could NOT use in the lower levels. Since the pelham I used was made very much like the mullen mouth I showed in the mullen mouth very successfuly in the lower levels until he hit the higher levels.

So in my experience I have found it to be a good subsitute bit and legal.


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

I know a full cheek is not a leverage...and that leverage bits are not permitted for Dressage. I was just saying that because he has a stronger mouth, maybe a full cheek would work better because it also applies pressure to the lips and outside of mouth....


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

IMO he needs more foundation put on him. A can get a soft mouth again, it'll just take time and patience, but it can be done.


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## Miss Katie (Dec 30, 2007)

Mullen mouth and a pelham are not similar at all. A pelham allows for 2 sets of reins, one at the mouth and one on the shank, which works by applying pressure to the poll, which is what the bit is known/ used for.
Mullen mouth refers to the mouthpeice of a bit. It is not a bit in itself. You can get mullen mouth loose rings, mullen mouth d rings, mullen mouth pelhams...
It mearly means that the mouthpiece is made from a single piece of material which has a slight curve to it for tounge relief (but not as obvious as a ported mouth). Suggesting a 'unjointed mullen mouth' is not necissary as mullen mouth is unjointed.
Spyder by your reasoning, one could argue that a loose ring snaffle is also very similar to a pelham...

I second Winstons suggestion, maybe with a thinner than average mouthpiece. And lots of half halts.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Miss Katie said:


> It mearly means that the mouthpiece is made from a single piece of material which has a slight curve to it for tounge relief


Exactly and acts on the mouth in an entirely different way than a jointed bit does. All pelhams I have ever used had the same curved mouth piece (I refuse to use a ported pelham, or a jointed one) and while I know there are different mouth pieces available I go by what I know from my experience. If the pelham used by the OP is different than what I believe, they can come and say so.

Single jointed mouthpieces tend to have a nutcracker effect and if the OP got this horse having been in a twisted wire snaffle, I would, if I were training the horse move away from any single jointed bit.

The basic problem with this horse is the holes in its training as Spirithorse stated and that is where the real emphasis should be, but I would attempt to repair the training under a bit that had a different effect on the jaw of the horse.


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## Miss Katie (Dec 30, 2007)

You made a statement that a pelham is very similar to a mullen mouth. That is false, and to someone who does not know any better, misleading. 

Just because YOU only ever use a mullen mouth pelham, it does not make a pelham the same as every other bit with a mullen mouthpiece. Suggesting that it is so, without offering any explaination of your reasoning, is irresponsable.
A pelham is still very different regardless of mouthpiece, and works in a very different way to a snaffle, which is what I am assuming you meant by mullen mouth.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Ok well, back on topic.
No leverage bits are allowed in lower level dressage. Any sane person using a pelham is going to be using a mullen mouth pelham. If you are using a jointed or ported pelham then you're going to have a bigger problem on your hands as far as scaling back your bitting just because something with leverage AND pallate pressure is a very severe bit.
My advice would be to work the horse on the lunge in sidereins and a regular french link or double jointed snaffle just to let him get used to a bit again. Hell I'd even ride him in a bitless or halter just to get that bad feeling out of his mouth. Then I'd pick up working him in a really soft bit. It's going to have the same effectiveness, as long as you don't overuse it. If you have really soft hands and don't ever pull, then when you do give an aid with the bit, the contrast between a soft hand and an aiding hand is still going to give him an aid, but this time it's just instead of the contrast between a pulling hand and a pulling harder hand.
If taking time off to rehabilitate the horse isn't possible, or if you are just looking for something to chuck on him for a dressage show then I would look at Baucher or b-ring snaffles. I know they are legal in Canada, not sure about the states, but they are the harshest thing allowed in lower levels.
Sprenger Baucher Bit Baucher Bit, Argentan Bahr Saddlery for all your equestrian needs Tack Shop Saddlery Store for Equestrians Horses Equine Products Dressage Hunter Jumper Eventing Supplies Apparel Tack Ontario Canada
WIth the baucher, it just gives the illusion of slight poll pressure to the horse. Just don't use it upside down, because that's illegal too. It's right side up in the picture.
Like spyder said, if he is used to working in a mullen mouth, then don't chnge it up, just find a baucher mullen mouth. However if he is used to a ported or jointed mouth piece then I'd try to find soemthing with either a french link or single joint. Keep as much of the bit the same as possible.

Good luck!


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

In addition to what was said by anabel, I also am a huge fan of a happy mouth bit. I've got a student with a former national level show morgan that did saddleseat in every harsh bit imaginable. She was 8...showing at nationals....and in just about everything from twisted to double bridles and what not. And by she was 8 i mean the RIDER the horse was older!

We now are schooling him for dressage in a regular loose ring happy mouth and he loves it. When he runs through the bit she can circle him and overall it's taught him to accept and move with the bit rather than brace against.


The main issue with a harsher bit is the fact that the horse isn't accepting it, and as a result, it takes a MUCH softer bit to teach them that it's okay to accept the bit and not brace. 

Once exception was my old eventer, who had his mouth torn up pretty badly and had scar tissue (literally). He evented in a mullen pelham b/c the leverage was great even though he couldn't really feel the mouthpiece. As for the dressage ring, he went in a Dr. Bristol and idk why or how, but actually accepted and moved with the bit (to the tune of up to 4th level...) so I can only assume it had to do with the scarring on his tongue and mouth that he could *feel* the bristol w/o feeling pain b/c normally that's a lot of bit for a horse.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Miss Katie said:


> You made a statement that a pelham is very similar to a mullen mouth. That is false, and to someone who does not know any better, misleading.












How It Works: The Pelham provides a somewhat muted effect of the bridoon/Weymouth combination. With curb rein the rider is able to lower the head and this is useful when schooling and encouraging proper head carriage. Activating the curb rein puts pressure on the bars of the mouth, chin, poll and if there is a port, the roof of the mouth. 
*With the snaffle rein the rider is able to lift the horse's head. As will all English snaffles the pressure will be on the bars of the mouth. For general riding, the rider would be most likely to ride on the snaffle rein, using only the curb rein when necessary*. This requires steady knowledgeable hands. 










*Mullen Mouth Bits *

The mouthpiece is a straight bar of material, without any joints or ports. In the mullen mouth, the bar has a slight bow to it, curving gently to allow some room for the tongue.
Action: The mullen mouth and straight bar are fairly similar in action, placing pressure on the tongue, lips, and bars. The mullen provides extra space for the tongue, instead of constantly pushing into it, resulting in more tongue relief, and making it more comfortable, but the mullen does not have as high of a port as a curb, thus does not offer full tongue relief. This bit is generally considered a very mild mouthpiece





Miss Katie said:


> Just because YOU only ever use a mullen mouth pelham, it does not make a pelham the same as every other bit with a mullen mouthpiece. Suggesting that it is so, without offering any explaination of your reasoning, is irresponsable.
> A pelham is still very different regardless of mouthpiece, and works in a very different way to a snaffle, which is what I am assuming you meant by mullen mouth.


Geeeeeee I always thought that posting a reply about what one person has EXPERIENCED is exactly what a message board is all about. I happen to have success with the change over and I posted that. I at least post about experience and not conjecture.

It is called having an opinion which the last I was aware of is what this board is for....not throwing out insults and rude comments like you have done.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

Okay, so this all has me a bit confused, so I did a bit of googling, and came out feeling just as confused. Is a mullen just a one piece bit? For some reason when everbody started to mention mullen mouth I pictured http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-01667&ids=753769153, but I guess that actually called a Kimberwicke. 

Anyway, something about having one solid piece in the mouth kinda makes me cringe. I have looked at the happy mouth line of bits, anybody have any thing to say about those?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

QHDragon said:


> Okay, so this all has me a bit confused, so I did a bit of googling, and came out feeling just as confused. Is a mullen just a one piece bit? For some reason when everbody started to mention mullen mouth I pictured Happy Mouth Shaped Mullen Mouth Kimberwicke Horse Bit - Dover Saddlery, but I guess that actually called a Kimberwicke.
> 
> Anyway, something about having one solid piece in the mouth kinda makes me cringe. I have looked at the happy mouth line of bits, anybody have any thing to say about those?


Kimberwicks can look like the one you have but most of the ones I see in the stores look like this one.










They have their uses and many use them instead of a pelham because you only really need one rein to be attached. What you have pictured is not legal in dressage at any level nor is the one I have pictured here.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

I have been looking at some of the happy mouth mullen bits, and a lot of them seem to have "an inner core of twisted wire for more flexibility." Wouldn't that be more severe than a regular metal bit?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

QHDragon said:


> I have been looking at some of the happy mouth mullen bits, and a lot of them seem to have "an inner core of twisted wire for more flexibility." Wouldn't that be more severe than a regular metal bit?


If you are looking to show dressage it will be the legality that needs to come first. I have been out of the lower levels for a while now, so not sure if the material that surrounds some of these newer bits are legal. 

You really need to look at the rule book to be sure or ask a judge in your area what you can or cannot use.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Spyder said:


> If you are looking to show dressage it will be the legality that needs to come first. I have been out of the lower levels for a while now, so not sure if the material that surrounds some of these newer bits are legal.
> 
> You really need to look at the rule book to be sure or ask a judge in your area what you can or cannot use.


Happy mouth and copper bits are now legal in dressage. The happy mouth bits may have a core of wire/cable but are covered in a rubber or plastic polymer that is soft (and supposedly apple flavored though it never did to me lol!). So they are very mild bits that encourage acceptance.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

LOL - the funny thing is I can picture you tasting the bit! ROFL

Mmmmmm apple.......ROFL


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

ROFL! Too funny!


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

Well I am going to look into getting one of the happy mouth bits ordered, hope it helps him out!


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