# Saddlebred's Natural or Trained to Motion?



## 166714 (Feb 16, 2015)

Hi guys,
I recently got myself amazing young saddlebred who is 5 turning 6 years old this year. I'm a sucker for those breeds but we have a slight limit to our budget so we couldn't go for fully trained fancy motion saddlebreds, I ended up with a lovely well basic trained mare.
I'm interested of how to increase her leg motion as in raising her knee higher with a bend to her legs. Is this motion naturally in them by genetics or it' something that we would have to expose and work with them?


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

It is a genetic trait that is enhanced with training. Much like the very enhanced moves a dressage horse makes. Some horses just aren't made to do some of the moves to that degree. If one is not made, capable, or willing to have the higher stepping motion, there isn't much that you can do about it. 

That being said, there is NOTHING wrong with one that can't put his knee above level. They are fantastic horses no matter what they are doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

You need to go visit a gaited horse training barn and watch the horses in training.

You will see them carrying heavy chains fastened around their pasterns and straps with rollers on them fastened around their pasterns.

You'll see hooves grown out to unnatural lengths with very heavy pads and shoes on them to increase 'action'. Some shoes and pads weigh over 2 pounds each. These shoes can be hand-made in a forge to make the toes or heels or even one side weigh more to enhance or correct a horses action. Sometimes their feet try to fall apart so they can become a natural length and they are held together with screws and even metal hose clamps.

You'll see tails broken and put into tail-sets with a harness holding it up that forces a tail to be held very high over the horse's back and that prevent it from even swatting a fly. They live in stalls, usually 24/7 except when being ridden and live in the tail-set harnesses all of the time.

They are ridden in every gimmick that can be put on a horse to make it miserable if it does not pick its feet up high enough, all in the name of enhancing its action. It usually takes more than a year of this kind of training and handling to get a horse ready to show. Some have been in training for several years. They must stay in a training barn in order to be shown. They cannot be ridden anywhere but in a show-ring with perfect footing. They are probably the most unnaturally housed and trained horses in the show world. 

I have owned several ASBs and they were wonderful horses with wonderful dispositions that had a lot of ability on their own, but not the kind that puts one in the 'gaited' show-ring. One I owned was a retired parade horse that had been to the Rose Parade several times and had been to Madison Square Gardens as a parade horse. He was one of the nicest horses I have ever owned. I had him until he died at the age of 33. I love horses too much to ever put one through what it takes to make a gaited show horse. JMHO Cherie


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

On that note, you are welcome in my barn any day of the week. If you are ever in Kentucky or even ohio, I would be happy to arrange tours in some of best Saddlebred Stables in the state. This offer goes for anyone. 

Our horses are not this sad picture of torture as Cherie and others seem to believe. 

In answer to your original question, please read my first reply. If you have any questions regarding this breed, feel free to PM me too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

There's a lot of truth in what's been said by both posters. I've seen first hand SOME of the gimmicky training that can force a horse into doing more than it is naturally inclined to do. And I've seen some wonderful training that helps a horse reach its potential without all the gimmicks and shoeing. 

I have a mare who trots above level. Her neck set and throatlatch areas are not correct for the kind of bridling these big trotters need to do. 










You can see the shoes and toes in this pic. 










You can see that this horse has normal feet and doesn't appear to have the big shoeing package on. 










Look at the left fore on this one especially, you can really see the padding that can be done to enhance the action. 










And here's my mare, barefoot, she's never had a shoe on in 10 years.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^You have some lovely horses!


I was sort of under the impression that most of the practices Cherie mentioned were a thing of the past, but I am in no means involved in the gaited horse industry, and don't know for sure.

Lady--I may have to take you up on that someday ;D

/AfterAUselessPost...

Subbing! You all seem pretty knowledgable <3


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

The key is to find a reputable trainer. This motion is as much genetic as it is GOOD training. While I do not work with saddlebreds (morgans are my cup of tea) a lot of our training equipment is the same. 

Chains/weights have pros and cons. How I was trained to use them on horses was not at all like adversaries and 'bad users' use them. IME they are only used sparingly and not to the extreme that they are with many. The same goes for weighted shoes. Yet again IME they were used rarely and never to an extreme weight (I think the most we ever used was a 10lbs weight on one day for fifteen minuets). There are good ways to encourage a higher carriage, and there are bad. I will never condone the bad, unfortunately however, people use it because it gets faster results and higher motion than more natural methods in many instances. 

I think the question you need to ask yourself is 'Why?'. Why do you want this leg carriage? What will the horse be doing with it? (Are you showing or pleasure riding?) 

If it's just for aesthetics then I would personally not go for it. The only times I teach horses to have 'show' carriage is when they will be showing, other than that I may encourage them to follow their natural high stepping and get a bit more without any equipment, but I don't expect them to do hard core trails after that. 

In whatever you decide you have to remember to only ask for what the horse can give. If your horse can't pick its feet up higher than two centimeters then you need to understand that it's cruel to expect it any higher.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Zexious, those top 3 are just pics I pulled off the web to illustrate that the shoeing and training and trimming of feet can be all over the place. The only one I own is Patti, the mare. 

I'm not at all into Saddleseat, not because of any objections, but because at 57 I'm more into Low and Slow. Patti is one of the smoothest horses I've ever ridden and my back loves that. I just have Patti in a more natural headset and we move more collected that the Country, English and Park horses. Patti's temperament is not at all that of the fiery Park horse either, she and I are both pretty laid back and mellow. 

Unfortunately, you'll still find the abusive training practices, IN EVERY BREED. It's not just TWH or Saddlebreds or Arabs, there's something in every single breed out there because when you're talking big money for showing and training, some people will do ANYTHING for a $3 ribbon and a $100 trophy. And don't take that as sour grapes either, I LOVE to show and I LOVE to win. I just won't go certain places.


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## ponyroll (Feb 15, 2015)

Congrats on the new horse Bluroan  I've always had similar questions about ASB's.

I was looking for some show ribbons for my Missouri fox trotter the other day and I stumbled across some saddlebred tack for sale. There were tailset surcingles, training shackles, and some other things. Some of them looked like torture devices to me. I was aware some of the training was unnatural, but I was appalled when I actually saw the tack and people selling it none the less.

I have very little experience with ASB's, so seeing these things raised some questions. I have also always wondered about the rack that ASB's perform. Do they do that naturally? The five gaited ones that do the walk, trot, slow gait, rack, and canter. Are all those gaits natural to this breed?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

They are born three gaited. Some bloodlines are much more inclined to easily learn to 'amble' which is developed into the slow gait and rack. The 5 gaited horses are usually more brilliant and animated and are the most sought after and highest priced horses. They are shown with full manes and huge fake tails. (Don't forget the ginger Salve). I have watched different trainers use different techniques for teaching the rack. Some use weights. Some do a lot of 'downhill riding while leaning from side to side to try to get the young horse to rack. If I am not mistaken, the foot falls are about the same as a flat footed walk only it become an animated racing walk. 

When a horse cannot make it as a 5 gaited horse, it is tried as a 3 gaited horse. They are shown more controlled and with less animation. They just need a very 'high' trot. If they are going to show 3 gaited, they are usually roached and shown with their own tails that are shaved at the top (but still broken and 'set'). Showing them with roached manes keeps them from having 5 gaited horses try to show both ways. Most 3 gaited horses are the flunk outs from 5 gaited ranks. They either did not 'gait' well or do not rack high enough and fast enough.

The flunk outs from 3 gaited show training become 'natural' pleasure horses and parade horses. These are the really nice horses to be around.

I managed a Saddlebred barn for a while. I had to 'hide' my fire extinguishers (real great idea in a big wooden barn). If I did not hide them or lock them up, every morning when I came in they were empty. Whe? Because the show instructor and Jr. trainer took them and shot the CO2 extinguishers at the horses' feet as they went past her to make them frantically lift their feet higher. She did evening lessons for Amateur/owner and Junior riders in the evening in the big indoor when I was gone.

I had to arrange all of the farrier work at this barn so I know exactly what went into trying to keep these poor horses' feet together and keep working. I had to maintain the stalls, which all had tail boards sticking out 1 foot from the walls so the horses could not rub their set tails. I had to keep all of the tail sets in place. They were the last things I checked before I went home. 

I was paid really good money and I liked being able to get a paycheck and not have to be on the road showing with a school-age son at home, but when I could not longer stand it, I had to leave. The trainers were Nationally ranked and this was a 'high-end' training barn. It was just not my cup of tea. Husband was even offered a very high paying job starting their young horses. [At the time he was starting and training cutting horses.] He came and talked to them and said that he had worked all his life to get horses to relax and lower their heads. He just could not think of throwing that away to get their heads higher than they wanted to carry them. They were rather put-out that he turned them down. I quit shortly after that.

So-- this is not hear-say. I have been there. I cannot even describe the devices used to get their feet high and higher. Here is a link to a tack place that sells the 'training devices'. Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Winner's Circle Horse tack, saddles,Circle Y Saddles, bridles, grooming, saddle pads, headstall, bits, halters
Just click on the 'Training Aids' and the 'tail-sets, tail braces and accessories' sections. 
Cherie


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


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On first reading, I wished this pic had been posted by itself, so I could have 'liked' the post.



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> ... The only one I own is Patti, the mare. ...



Ah, so that is Patti, lovely, happy to see her pic. I've read some posts about her. Stall cleaning woes, ....

She looks well worth it. She is a fairly big horse, right?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Patti is lovely. Is she a National Show Horse?


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## ducky123 (May 27, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> some people will do ANYTHING for a $3 ribbon and a $100 trophy.


Showjumping is unethical as some people have done things like put nails in a horse's boot so as to punish rail contact.

The Thoroughbred industry is unethical because some people use drugs on the horses.

TWH showing is unethical because some people have used soring. 

It's cruel to keep a horse in a stall. It's cruel to let them out. It's cruel to use a rope halter. Shanked bits show you to be a horse hater. The barefoot crowd sneers at those who think shoes are a better solution. 

And my personal favorite, a draft horse pulling a wagon is unethical because.... well, I don't really understand the reasoning, but NYC mayor Bill DeBlasio says so!

Time to step off my high horse. Somebody bring me an extra tall mounting block.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

anndankev said:


> On first reading, I wished this pic had been posted by itself, so I could have 'liked' the post.
> 
> Ah, so that is Patti, lovely, happy to see her pic. I've read some posts about her. Stall cleaning woes, ....
> 
> She looks well worth it. She is a fairly big horse, right?


LOL! Yes, this is Patricia Delisha aka LA Peppermint Patti. She is my girl. I have several horses and love them all but there is truly only one that could not be sold or replaced. She is that one. There are a couple that you might have to pull their lead ropes out of my cold dead fingers, but Patti is the only one you'd actually have to cut my arm off for. 

Yes, she's big. I last measured her at over 16.2 hh at about 5 years old and I think she grew some more because I can't even come close to seeing over her withers or butt anymore. Not even on my tippy toes. 

Patti is the barn Mata Hari. I will have people come out interested in another horse and they will see Patti and immediately fall head over heels. You can hear them fall with a thud. They leave very disappointed when I tell them that NO ONE has enough money to buy this horse. Meanwhile, she's standing there, looking gorgeous and letting them pet her and drool all over her and making it much worse. LOL!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Cherie said:


> Patti is lovely. Is she a National Show Horse?


She is Cherie, 3/4 Saddlebred and 1/4 Arab, which explains her intelligence and her great personality. I really do love the NSHs, though I won't pay to register such in this part of the country. Their fees are just insane. We just reg'd her Pinto and since they have lots of shows and stuff to do, we're very happy with that. 

La Peppermint Patti National Show

Her sire, Atomic Deluxe, has an interesting mix in his pedigree. Some of the old Stonewall blood (which I love) and then waaaaay back, I found my 2nd favorite Arab stallion of all time, Muscat. She has no choice but to be awesome, LOL!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Good grief. What does it cost now to register one?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

For horses without 50% Arab blood:

Registration Fees for horses by NSHR Nominated Sires: 
Birth – 3 months - $200 
3 – 6 months - $250 
6 – 12 months - $350 
12 months & over - $500 
Horses born in or before 2009 - $500 
Registration Fees for horses not by NSHR Nominated Sires: $500 

For horses with 50% Arab blood: 
Registration Fees for horses by NSHR Nominated Sires: 
Birth – 3 months - $200 
3 – 6 months - $250 
6 – 12 months - $350 
12 months & over - $500 
Horses born in or before 2009 - $500 

It's pretty much changed into a Half Arab Registry and for that I'll register with AHA, it's considerably cheaper. 

"The ONLY requirement for NSHR eligibility is that all horses must contain al least 50% Arabian Blood New registration applications now available. Just click on the Forms and Applications tab at the top of this home page. Also, any breed of stallion can now be NSHR Lifetime Nominated . Reduced registration fees are available for foals by Lifetime Nominated stallions and these stallions can enroll in the Stallion Row Jackpot Program.
Call the NSHR office at (937) 962-4336 if you have any questions.

Foals born in 2010 or before: Any foal born in 2010 or before that has less than 50% Arabian blood and would have been eligible for registration as a National Show Horse as the rules existed at the time the foal was conceived, shall still be eligible for registration as a NSH."

My main objection to registering with NSH is there is nothing around here to do with them. No shows, very few of the Arab shows have any classes for them (Unless you're also reg'd 1/2 Arab) and there's no prize money to justify that kind of expenditure. If I produced a foal that met their new criteria and the new owner wanted the papers, I'd happily fill them out but I'm not paying.


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