# Please Critique my Two Boys



## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

*pictures*

Chance
































Count


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

Anyone? Any thoughts?


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

The first thing I would do is get his hooves back to normal. get those pads off. Not WP that leg action is a no no as is that head set. You could try some trail on him, if he does not do that high step, I would work on letting him just be a horse for a while, turn out, and just ride him.
get his feet trimmed nice, no pads. his hooves are to long and the rt hoof is narrower than the left, more upright. He has a weak hind end and does not appear to be evenly muscled from the rear. Looks a tad thin. I do not know what breed he is, and I am used to heavier horses.


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## ponyroll (Feb 15, 2015)

Sorry, but those padded shoes are a huge pet peeve of mine. They put a lot of stress on a horse's legs and frame. They do no justice to the gaited or saddleseat world. The horse's front hooves are also being kept long; common practice to get the steps high, but not the best for horse's tendons and ligaments.

You could possibly do some dressage with Chance. I have seen a few saddlebreds in the sport. If he is 5 gaited then you may consider gaited dressage; it is becoming more popular these days. Competitive trail is fun and there is a large variety of breeds. As for western pleasure, I don't think you would have a great go at that. The classes are dominated by stock types, and a low head and tail set are desired (which is not going to be achieved by the saddlebred breed).

Chance: He has breed character; the length in the back, neck, and legs are characteristic for a saddlebred. He has a nice long shoulder, but it may be a little upright. He could use a little muscle; I know this breed doesn't typically have much substance but he is a little scrawny.

Count: He has breed character as well. He also has more substance than the otheer guy. His back may be slightly swayed, but this is normal for a saddlebred.


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

Funny there is only one picture of Chance with pads on and Count doesn't have any. Chance has no high stepping action up front since I pulled his shoes. I have had a lot of issues trying to get weight and muscle on Chance's hind end. I should have clarified I was talking about Saddlebred Western Pleasure. Chance is gaited but I he can't seem to gait very well without shoes. Gaiting is what seems to cause much of the stress on him mentally and physically.


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## IndianaJones (Aug 13, 2014)

don't shoot me...but....the breed in general breaks my heart. :/


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

IndianaJones said:


> don't shoot me...but....the breed in general breaks my heart. :/


I'm not exactly sure why you feel this way and not exactly sure how it pertains to the post. Count absolutely loves his job and loves the show ring. Believe me you wouldn't get anything done when he is unhappy since I have seen him in a unhappy state. He will run sideways and won't trot. Chance doesn't, he had a really rough trainer that made him stressed and over worked him. Which is why I am searching for a new job for him and took off his shoes. So if you could not bring the entire breed into this post and just comment on the horses themselves I would greatly appreciate it. You can be as hard as you want on the horses I know they have large faults and those are the reasons I have them...


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## IndianaJones (Aug 13, 2014)

It's not your horses I would critique. It's the breeding and breed. Your horses likely need one of many things to help them live a long happy life, but you're working against genetics in general. Straight legs I see as a positive(not the post legged part though). The rest makes me feel bad...too long, too many issues working against the breed altogether. 85% of the breed are debilitatingly sway backed by their teens. That is not okay.

I came from a background in Tennessee Walkers so I watched the genetic deterioration there too. Give that breed 10 more years and they may not have a neck at all! That is not where they started. Watch the riders in the show ring bend their bodies in half to look lower than the horses ear line. My saddlebred buddies use to razz me for it. 

I agree with the other posters tho, pull those shoes and give the horse a chance to have an actual foot under him.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

It is NEVER a question of a horse's heart, just how an animal has been deliberately bred. Looking at yours they look very happy, but they both have shallow barrels, and both have very straight back legs. I went searching and found this:
Simmons Book - About the Book
You can see that almost 100 years ago SB's were stockier and more athletic. I would wish to see them bred like this, again.
On the good side I don't see toeing out or pigeoning on their front or back legs.
I would suggest that you start studying conformation. We all end up buying another horse in the future. Understanding conformation and being able to recognize lamenesses when somebody shows you their horse can help to not be snuckered into buying a compromised horse.
It's like the 2yo GS dog I saw yesterday, with a velcro pad to keep him from leaking urine, as has been his problem since he was a young puppy. This is just one of the physical ailments caused by severe inbreeding.


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

Where are you getting this 85% because I have seen plenty of saddlebreds from all over and hardly any have swayed backs. The swayed backs was a fad in the 80's and now trying to be bred out of the breed. Also how many times do I have to say that Chance doesn't have shoes on. Count does but no weighted shoe or pads. Could you please just comment on there conformation as if you didn't know their breed? I was hoping for a conformational critique. Both horses have been checked by the vet and are sound.


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

FYI I bought neither of these horses, they were given to me. Both were reserve world champions as three year olds and Chance in 2012 placed 3rd in the 5-gaited geldings class in louisville and 6th in the 5-gaited grand championship.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

The modern America bulldog is a champion who cannot breathe well, or walk well, yet the AKA still pins them.
Championships based on just looks aren't worth much, IMHO.
You put your horses up for a conformation critique.
Just enjoy your horses, and don't take any of this personally. =D


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

Sorry I'm just tired of the posts that have nothing to do with these horses or their conformation(such is they should be allowed to just be horses which they are). I am also just trying to fill in some of their history I left out. The comment that both are post legged explains why both are so bouncy.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Okay, but still the front hooves on both horses are misshaped. They need some work, and the 2nd horse looks to have ring bone starting. . They still both look like they need some groceries, IMO. they are long backed but SB seems to have that longer back, diff not a quarter horse build.  . You could try some hill work, sloping hills up and down at a walk and trot can help build some butt muscles. And my comment about letting them be a horse for a while, is meant to give them a break from the show ring and have turn out and not be messed with a month . let the horse De Stress.. 
ei be a horse, not a show horse .


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

stevenson said:


> Okay, but still the front hooves on both horses are misshaped. They need some work, and the 2nd horse looks to have ring bone starting. . They still both look like they need some groceries, IMO. they are long backed but SB seems to have that longer back, diff not a quarter horse build.  . You could try some hill work, sloping hills up and down at a walk and trot can help build some butt muscles. And my comment about letting them be a horse for a while, is meant to give them a break from the show ring and have turn out and not be messed with a month . let the horse De Stress..
> ei be a horse, not a show horse .


Yes Chance's feet are misshapen and we are working on that but the one foot is clubbed so my farrier is hesitant to attempt anything with that foot since he is 13 and thinks it will do more harm than good. His feet were left a little long to try to prevent him from getting sore from becoming barefoot. Count's feet are just over due but I am waiting for the farrier to be able to come out and do his feet. Count does not have ring bone. I think what you are seeing is his extremely curly leg hairs. Count definitely does not need groceries, currently he as at the perfect weight for him. I would agree the pictures make both of them look skinnier than they are. Chance is really starting to get fatter as well but mainly in his barrel. Chance has just had the last month off and about a year before he was donated to my college. Count had about 2 or 3 months off before he finally made his trip to California in December. Both of these horses were kind of kicked out of my college for being considered dangerous. Chance while riding and Count while on the ground.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think Count is showing some nice hock engagement here. I realize he does not reach UNDER like other breeds do, but he does have a nice bend in the hock









and if you look from the rear, he has good muscle, and decent bone










his worst fault, in my eyes, is his very narrow front legs, that angle inward, kind of "knock-kneed", with tied in elbows


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

Thank you tinyliny. I think that is why he tends to hit his knees and hence is ridden in knee boots.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think they are both fine serviceable horses. I would worry more about Chance's stress in a show or competitive environment. For him, I would look into what he likes doing. I might start with trail riding. They both look a bit lighter boned and I would steer clear of things like jumping. I would also possibly avoid dressage because that could put him easily back into the competitive mind set. 

I agree with the OP if your horse does not want to do something they are not going to do it well. To be honest, you can take a horse to the races but if they don't love racing they are not going to win. 

I don't know much about conformation; however, both horses look serviceable and very type to the breed.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

I'm sorry I can't really answer your more general question as I don't know about the disciplines, but in general ...

I really like Chance's neck - it's got a good length and quality to it, definitely a sign of a horse who's been well looked after. 

After that, he does look a bit light in the hindquarters for my liking, but maybe that's just coming from a racing background. Also he looks a bit short at the croup (uphill build ?) and straight in the hind leg.

Nice types, look like they would be versatile for work in the ring.



ETA: Maybe if you took the photo pointing at their quarters they would appear more 'true' - as it is, it may shorten their hind quarters ?


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

I know I had a lot of trouble trying to get them to stand to have there picture taken. Maybe this weekend I can get someone to hold them for me so I can get a better picture. I also will post the videos I have of chance lungeing and my attempt at riding him more relaxed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have a friend with a Nat. show horse. this horse loves trail riding, and jumping, but she is always a handful. 
another man I met on the trails had a Saddlebred. it was a long time trail horse that he'd had in Alaska, riding the trails with grizzly bears. 

I don't know if Id jump either horse, but don't sell them short.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

IndianaJones said:


> It's not your horses I would critique. It's the breeding and breed. Your horses likely need one of many things to help them live a long happy life, but you're working against genetics in general. Straight legs I see as a positive(not the post legged part though). The rest makes me feel bad...too long, too many issues working against the breed altogether. *85% of the breed are debilitatingly sway backed by their teens.* That is not okay.
> 
> I came from a background in Tennessee Walkers so I watched the genetic deterioration there too. Give that breed 10 more years and they may not have a neck at all! That is not where they started. Watch the riders in the show ring bend their bodies in half to look lower than the horses ear line. My saddlebred buddies use to razz me for it.
> 
> I agree with the other posters tho, pull those shoes and give the horse a chance to have an actual foot under him.


In response to the bold... No they are not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

http://vid393.photobucket.com/album...5-03/2C3F2DC4-1DDA-4CC7-9A11-08866E920D13.mp4
http://vid393.photobucket.com/album...5-03/FFEA1437-1D07-4350-BA5F-BD0DD94BA534.mp4
here are videos of Chance moving.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

By all means, it looks like he could greatly benefit from dressage work. But I wouldn't expect to show him for a while yet.
In both trotting videos, he moves hollow in the back, with little engagement in the hindquarters (doesn't even remotely track up from behind), has this huge bulge of muscle on the bottom of his neck and has very unsteady contact. He seems to have decent natural rhythm, but looks very tense overall.

In dressage, what you are looking for is a relaxed way of going over the topline. The horse is stretched from the poll along the top of the neck and back, with the back swinging and so the hindquarters have a chance to really step underneath the horse. The energy comes mostly from behind.

With your horse, it looks like you would have to start at the very basis and build from there. This is by no means meant to discourage you, I really think dressage could do this horse a lot of good. But considering your time line is 1-2 years, there is a lot of work to do before you could start showing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

Ok thank you. I completely agree. His biggest issue is that he tenses up and that he won't touch the bridle. The day when those videos were taken were especially bad because he hadn't been ridden in 4 days and while we were riding there was a person revving the engine of their cool car in the parking lot. It was extremely loud and not conductive to relaxing my horse.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

I would just like to compliment how great your saddlebreds look compared to the ones I used to work around. Their backs were swayed to the point that they resembled the arc of a banana. I LOVE saddlebreds, and I've always had a 5-gaited on my wish list (; Based off of the saddleseat horses I have been around, I would just do whatever with Chance. Dabble in things you wouldn't normally do, maybe some speed events or mess with cows. Go trail riding, maybe some dressage, western. I would find something that he enjoys and go with it


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

KylieHuitema thanks Chance is hands down the nicest gaited horse I have ever had the pleasure to work with and if he were ever to ride like he does at home at a show he could easily win the 5-gaited world grand championship. Unfortunately he doesn't though which is why I want to take the time to do other things and get him in the ring under less stressful conditions.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

Corporal said:


> It is NEVER a question of a horse's heart, just how an animal has been deliberately bred. Looking at yours they look very happy, but they both have shallow barrels, and both have very straight back legs. I went searching and found this:
> Simmons Book - About the Book
> You can see that almost 100 years ago SB's were stockier and more athletic. I would wish to see them bred like this, again.
> On the good side I don't see toeing out or pigeoning on their front or back legs.


What happened to saddlebreds happened to thoroughbreds and quarter horses... Once upon a time, they were commonly more sturdy with good bone and feet and bred for purpose and function, not style. My old trainer breeds awesome saddlebreds that can do anything and are reminiscent of the old-school ASB.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

The picture of the chestnut gelding I attached below is a Saddlebred named Andy and he's a gaited ASB too who also enjoys dressage, western, jumping, and trails. If their heart is in the right place and they're sound, there's really nothing an ASB can't do. 

People don't realize this, but they're really good jumpers. My first pony was a saddlebred cross (attached pic of the bay jumping) and could jump anything. 

Ever heard of Kate Chadderton? Her barn is near me and she is a really well known eventer. This is her and her saddlebred gelding "Rocco":


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

Count would be the one that I could jumping since he is all heart and I don't ever see him cooling down enough or having patience for dressage or anything that would involve completely being told what to do or how to move. Chance doesn't have the nerves for jumping. Chance likes his job to require a lot of thinking since it seems to ground him. Count prefers to do the job he has been taught all his life with just slight assistance from his rider and be done.


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## silverxslinky (Jul 23, 2013)

I like your horses. As previously mention they both have long backs and are a little straight behind. They also have flat croups and upright necks. The later is not really a fault, but you may have a bit more trouble getting a horse with an upright neck started at the lower levels of dressage as many of them are less inclined to want to stretch over there topline, at least initially. 

I don't see why you could not transition them to a different type of work, they both look capable enough.

Finding a qualified dressage trainer to work with you is going to save you a lot of struggles getting these guys going. You'll have to do a lot of retraining as the saddlebred "headset" and hollow backed high stepping way of going is not what they'll be looking for in the dressage ring. I would personally recommend having someone show you how to get them going nicely on the lungeline without a rider, as it can be easier on the horse to start to use their muscles differently without having to cope with the extra weight. It is extremely helpful in understanding the picture you are trying to produce. Lungeline lesson with you in the tack will also hugely benefit you altering your position, as you look like a very competent saddleseat rider in dressage tack at the moment. It's doubtful that you'll be able to get the results you want without changing your seat. Also if the your trainer can get your horse moving correctly from the ground you can "get the feeling" that you're trying to replicate when you're training alone. 

Best of luck to you any your guys! They look like neat horses and I hope you enjoy the new direction you are taking with at least one of them


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

I completely agree that I need a trainer for this. I need a trainer that will come to the barn I'm at and that is very hard to find. I really worry about having another trainer riding Chance because he has the potential to become dangerous so I would have to find someone that could deal with his special brand of specialness. I have a lot of difficulties keeping myself sliding off the back of that saddle since it has no seat.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

arduke said:


> Count would be the one that I could jumping since he is all heart and I don't ever see him cooling down enough or having patience for dressage or anything that would involve completely being told what to do or how to move. Chance doesn't have the nerves for jumping. Chance likes his job to require a lot of thinking since it seems to ground him. Count prefers to do the job he has been taught all his life with just slight assistance from his rider and be done.


Ah, then I wouldn't recommend jumping. Jumping is nothing without a dressage foundation, whether you ride hunters or jumpers or just for fun.


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## silverxslinky (Jul 23, 2013)

I totally understand the difficulties of finding a trainer that will come to your barn. It's actually fairly difficult to find a good dressage trainer at all. But if you can find someone who can coach you properly, you should be able to retrain your horses yourself without having to have someone else sit on them, if you're worried about them acting a bit "special." Although expect that it will be slow go at first!
By the way, I'm a bit curious as to what you mean about the saddle "not having a seat?"


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

If she rides saddleseat, cut back saddles have no padding whatsoever, maybe that's what she meant by no seat?


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## arduke (Feb 17, 2010)

No the dressage saddle I have is extremely flat seated. It is supposed to be a really expensive saddle so I was really surprised that the seat is so shallow. I didn't buy the saddle it was given to a friend who allows me to use it.


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## Janet Cherry (Jul 13, 2009)

Both horses look rather narrow in front, but I think that is a breed thing. Chance is not very deep in the chest but has a nice shaped back, so if he is a comfortable ride and his hindquarters are strong enough he could make a balanced trail horse and do some of those other competitive things like orienteering, trail competition etc...


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## silverxslinky (Jul 23, 2013)

The saddle may well be to small for you. What size is it?

Regardless of whether the saddle is to small or not you'll have a much easier time sitting in it if you drop your stirrups at least three holes, drop your leg so that it's underneath you, and rotate your pelvis forward so that you have a very very slight arch in your lower back. That should put you more in the middle of the seat instead of at the back of the saddle.

Feel free to tell me to shut up at any time. I recognize I'm deviating from comments strictly relating to conformation.


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