# Mare that kicks out behind at other horses



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I almost never ask a training question here. So, here goes . . . 



A friend of mine , with little experience in training and riding , owns a really beautiful QH mare that she 'inherited'. (long story).
This mare is so pretty she could be the poster horse in the 'QH' page of a book on breeds. She is of the Hancock line, and is a bay roan with gorgeous coloration. She is athletically built and gives off that, "I can corner faster than a cat" look. Very desireable package. The lady has even offered, "sometime' , to let me ride her.

But, she has a very bad habit; she will aggressively kick out at any horse that moves behind her, and I mean back INTO that horse so that her double barrel kick will connect. She snarls and squeels, pins her ears and becomes a total ------ you know what.


She is trained well, in rodeo and cow working, so I am told. But, how do you work with this bad habit? She is on regumate now to reduce her very hard cycles. How do you TRAIN this reaction out of her? or can you?




Horse is about 8, kept on dry paddock, fed grass hay. Horse recently colcked , was scoped and treated and no evidence of physical issues. even had colonoscopy . . all clear. these behaviors PRE-Date the colic episode and have been her modus operendi for her adult life, it seems.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I'd ride this mare with an over-under on the saddle and wearing spurs, and when she lays her ears back or tries this little trick, she's going to get spanked hard across the hindquarters and spurred until she moves forward and realizes that kicking is not something she wants to be doing. This is a dangerous habit, and it needs to stop, and you will not stop it without getting after her, and hard. She needs to realize that what she's doing is NEVER ok before she seriously injures someone or another horse. Her behavior is not that rare, and a good rider/trainer should be easily able to get her out of it. That person needs to be a good rider with good timing, though. She needs to be disciplined immediately when she even thinks of trying it, and it needs to be followed through on, even if she rears or bucks trying to get her way. This is generally a fast fix, but horses like this tend to revert to the same behavior when they can get away with it--- a novice or timid rider, or someone not paying attention. She's gotten away with this for most of her life, it seems, so it's going to be harder to fix than if her rider had fixed it when she was started under saddle. The key is also to recognize when she is going to do it, and correcting her before she actually does. You can usually feel the horse tense up, the head lift, and the ear come back when she's mad a horse is behind her before she bares her teeth, squeals, or kicks. That's when you get after her. If she's already into her kicking by the time you correct, you're too late and then you have to keep on correcting until she stops and be prepared for a rodeo. This may get worse before it gets better. Have an experienced rider or trainer work with her on this-- you need someone who knows what they're doing on the mare, and also on the horse that you're using to 'set her up' so nobody is hurt in the melee.


This is one of those rare instances when a hard correction is justified. A big Hancock mare will challenge her rider on this since she's gotten away with it, and the rider needs to be able to win, and keep emotion out of it. Correct her, and hard, until she stops, then relax and continue on as if nothing happened. Don't make a big deal of it but do not allow this to continue, and it will soon be a thing of the past.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Ditto on Silver's post.

When Hooey was a yearling I found out quickly his go-to move was kicking. Horses, dogs, people, cows. Even though I got after him for it on the ground I still had to reinforce it with a split rein when I started him under saddle. He was that colt that would try to kick at your feet in the saddle if over cued. Again kick at horses, dogs, people, even kicking at his own tail if it touched his back legs in a way he hadn't expected or if he was already aggravated. He would especially cattle when working in a rodear or alleyway. I was terrified at the fact of having to buy someone's calf that he had killed by kicking. It took being consistent and he could throw a fit for being disciplined for it so be prepared.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I presume we're talking about when she's being ridden/in hand, not when loose in the paddock? 

Ditto Silver's post. This is a time I think strong punishment is warranted. Tho (likely stating the obvious to you but...) if the horse is not used to spurs, I wouldn't use those - or your friend could find herself going UP very quickly instead of back!


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

There is almost always some indication before a horse actually kicks another horse. This is when the rider should react rather than afterwards. When caught at the right time, a simple reminder that the horse is working and not allowed the freedom of such behavior should be all that is needed.

What form does this take? Often, just a quick tension of one rein. Maybe add a quick squeeze of the legs to remind the horse to move forward.

I seldom find the need for anything more.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

thank you for the replies. 



the owner can not ride this mare . . . yet. Physical reasons, but she is not an experienced rider and has a long time not being in the saddle. I am a decent rider, but am the first to admit I won't win in a rodeo situation.


Mostly, I was thinking about dealing with her on the ground, since this is what she is mostly doing at this point. I do not know how she acts out in a group of horses, since she is kept in a corral type paddock. She will be non-stop defensive of ANY horse approaching the adjoining fence when she is in her paddock. Only a few 'neighbors' can be tolerated by her.


Is there something about Hancock line horses? She is very pretty, and fairly big.


So, do you think we should set it up so that someone brings a 'bait' horse behind this mare, who will be held on line by the owner, and when the mare gives even a HINT of getting ready to let go on this other horse, the owner/handler should . . . . ? shank the leadrope? smack her shoulder with a whip? make her run in circles? I mean, we want her to know that her ugly thoughts are not ok, so we need to get her attention and make things uncomfortable, no?


tell me how you'd approach this on the ground.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

When on the ground, I would do whatever is necessary to get this horse's attention off the other horse and on me. Again, this would be before, rather than after, a kick. As with most "cues", use the least amount of energy necessary. This may take the form of a quick verbal word, a tug on a lead, or whatever works best with this particular horse.

My intent would be to defuse the situation and get on with work rather than reacting in a way that intensifies the horse's emotions.

I would not begin working with such a horse by intentionally setting up a confrontational situation. I would begin by developing a relationship with this horse that establishes me a the one whose desire takes precedence in any situation. This does not mean that I do not take a horse's concern into consideration. It simply means that I make the final decision.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I'm not sure on the ground would be the safest way to go about this. The person handling the bait horse could get caught in the middle and be severely injured. How does she do with running a lunge whip (or other long object) up and down and between her back legs? If that hasn't been tested that might be the best way to start and save the testing with another horse for under saddle with very good riders on both horses. I've heard from multiple sources that Hancock horses can be hard to train but when you finally get through to them they make good horses that can work all day.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

With a horse that is a confirmed kicker I have never found that giving a cue to move forward works. It usually does take hard punishment. 

One of the biggest no no's in the Hunting Field, is a kicker. A friend of mine had a horse that messed around and would kick. It did wear a red ribbon on its tail. 
We were cantering up a hill when she went past me, Raffles bucked and kicked out at my horse catching me in the lower leg causing serious injury, AND ruining my hunting boots. 

A rider can feel when a horse is going to kick if they are aware - that is the time to get after them. 


As for correcting on the ground I would have a long whip,and the moment she went to lash out she would get it across her hind legs.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Some mares will do this when they’re in heat and never do it at all the rest of the time. It doesn’t excuse it but it can disappear altogether when they are put on regumate.
The colic like attack might not have been colic but could have been a large follicle.
Has the mare ever been checked for ovarian tumor?


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Horses that grow up in stalls and separated from other horses have no heard skills. They have no idea about the higher/lower dynamics of a horse heard. These problem horses continue to be separated from other horses and the problem just gets worse.

Put her out with a heard with enough room for a few months and let her learn how to be a horse.


Side note / I have a Hancock gelding and I absolutely love everything about him. He spent his first three years with 5 mares that taught him manners.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

If she is doing this loose in her paddock, you have two options:

1.) Make sure there's a good fence between her and the other horses, and I'd run a strand of electric wire on that fence so if she backs up to it to kick, she backs into that wire.

2.) Put her out with other horses who either won't provoke her and will stay out of her way, or will give it right back to her.

I wouldn't correct this on the ground unless it's happening when she's being handled or led, in which case your biggest issue is that she has no manners or respect and needs some time with a trainer, and to be with someone who can handle her correctly. When you go out into her pen, carry a longe whip and let her have it across the rear legs if she even thinks about going after another horse in your presence.

I think this mare is probably too much for your friend. If your friend is timid and inexperienced, this is not the mare for her. Hancock horses are great horses, but they need a job, and they need to know their rider/handler has a clue, or they WILL take advantage. They are tough, smart, and athletic. Many have a penchant for bucking, especially if they aren't ridden regularly. They are not horses you leave in a stall or pen and ride for 20 minutes once a week. They are horses that you ride every day and you give them a JOB. I had a Hancock gelding for several years, and you needed to ride him consistently and long, or he would think up ways to turn you into a lawn dart. I rode him on a ranch or in the sale barn 6-7 days a week, several hours a day most times. When I couldn't ride as often due to school, I loaned him to a friend who sorted cattle on him at a feedlot for 10 hours a day. Sold him to my farrier who now uses him as a ranch/rope/pickup horse. When he's not ridden, he's out on 200 acres of pasture with a herd. I know of 15 or 20 horses like this in the area, and only one is an in-your-pocket pet you can trust with an inexperienced or timid rider. The rest are all 'using horses' or 'cowboy horses' and need to be handled and ridden by someone who knows what they're doing.

I also like the suggestion to have this mare checked for a reproductive issue. A cyst or hormone imbalance could be causing her pain, which won't help her temper, and making her problem worse.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Do you know that the horse kicks out at other horses under saddle?
Many horses that kick others in the field do not kick under saddle. If it's something like defending food or space, those issues often don't come up under saddle and only are issues in turnout areas.

If she is very well trained, I wouldn't assume there are issues under saddle, or that your friend can or cannot ride her. Instead she should be evaluated by an experienced rider to see what she knows and how she behaves when working. 

Horses will always manage their own behaviors when we are not around. You can't really train a horse to behave a certain way in turnout. The problem is that you could only provide a reprimand for a behavior about 1% of the time. Rather, you need to manage the herd to put horses together that get along. If some horses are very aggressive about kicking others, they may need to be in their own enclosure and see buddies over a fence.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I do not know if an Ovarian tumor was suspected or checked. I know the vet put her on Regumate, so maybe such a check was done. 



The kicking is all the time, whether in the cycle or not.


She does not tolerate any touching of her teats. I tried and she nearly cow kicked me.


I think that the owner has an adoring, "She's my little baby' sort of approach, so she may find the 'cure' more ugly than she can tolerate. But, I appreciate the advice. What I can do, when the right moment comes, is impress upon her how bad of a habit this, how dangerous to her and others. Whether she will want to hear that or not is the big question. 



I think riding her is above my pay grade.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Hancock horses: They are a HUGE thing in my area, and everyone that has owned one or does own one will tell you:

What a Hancock Horse learns in 15 minutes, is all they will learn in a month. IF you can keep from killing them the first 2 or 3 years, you're golden and will have a solid horse.... because they don't forget what they learn.

Teaching is just real slow going. They are hard headed and easy to blow up mentally by trying to teach too much to them at one go.

If she's kicking in the pasture, the way we cured that was B, was on Gina, and Jackie a horse they bought from us would run up to us in the pasture and wheel around to kick any horse we were riding. B got enough of her one day, had a nice, thick, broken stick off a tree, and was ready and waiting for her assault... and lit her up... chased her down ON GINA, squealing and growling and yelling and cussing her. Just thrashed her butt good for it. 

That was the last time Jackie ever tried to come at us or our horses.


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## TeeZee (May 26, 2018)

Since you stated you would rather not rodeo and considering your friend's health and experience level, I would just recommend getting a trainer. Preferably one that has experience with Hancock lines. I don't like to bash any breed or type of horse, but I will never own another Hancock. They are known for explosive outbursts and needing a firm hand. There are way too many willing and easy going horses in this world for me to want another. Occassionally you find any easy one, and I admire those who have and enjoy the hard ones. While physical and reproductive issues need to be ruled out, she sounds typical Hancock to me.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The nice thing about a Hancock and the reason they are popular is that they are tough and hold up to hard work. Most have good bone, good legs, and good feet. They stay sound and like to work. There's a reason most ranch breeding programs have Hancock in their lines. I quite like them crossed on Bonanza, Doc Bar, Colonel Freckles, etc. There are a lot of folks out there who would love this mare and get along well with her. If she landed in my pasture I'd be thrilled. 🙂


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> The kicking is all the time, whether in the cycle or not.
> 
> 
> She does not tolerate any touching of her teats. I tried and she nearly cow kicked me.
> ...



Make a hand! Tape a well stuffed glove to the end of a bamboo pole, stand well back by her shoulder facing her rear, lean into her and use the hand to reach parts Heineken never reaches, (Have her tied and preferably inside) 

I agree that horses need a herd to be a horse however, majority of racehorses for the flat start to be broken around 18 months and never see a field until they retire yet, they do not kick at other horses.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

@TeeZee Hancock is one bloodline I avoid there are a few other bloodlines I avoid also. 

This mare sounds like she needs a good attitude adjustment. Maybe a different owner who will be able to fix her very dangerous kicking habit.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Illuminating comments. Quite the education.


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## BRSportHorses (Aug 22, 2019)

This just made me rethink look at a Hancock bred gelding. I'm not sure I could handle this situation either. Props to you for admitting that this horses issues are "above your pay grade". Love that btw lol I'm going to do some research before I make a decision on this horse. Hes TB/QH if that matters at all lol I can see why they're called cowboy horses! I hope the owner can really look at the situation and makes the right decision to send her to someone whos experienced with these types of horses. Or sell her to someone whos experienced with Hancock bred horses. Otherwise...It will be a rough time.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

BRSportHorses said:


> This just made me rethink look at a Hancock bred gelding. I'm not sure I could handle this situation either. Props to you for admitting that this horses issues are "above your pay grade". Love that btw lol I'm going to do some research before I make a decision on this horse. Hes TB/QH if that matters at all lol I can see why they're called cowboy horses! I hope the owner can really look at the situation and makes the right decision to send her to someone whos experienced with these types of horses. Or sell her to someone whos experienced with Hancock bred horses. Otherwise...It will be a rough time.



Well, the trick is how much Hancock, and what are the other bloodlines, how old, and how started. Red, my daughter's 3 year old filly has SOME Hancock in her, but a generous amount of Doc Bar lines, Poco, Smart Little Lena, Driftwood (Driftwood horses are said to be the opposite of a Hancock horse - fast learners, emotionally and mentally solid), Freckles Playboy, etc.


She's a trainwreck because she's been allowed to live a 'feral' life on a big breeding ranch her entire three years of life - but not because she's got Hancock in her. Seems like the lessons take fast and solid on her, and the roan coloration has come through from that line, but that's about it.


Conversely, a friend has a barrel horse who is Driftwood on top, Hancock on bottom, and he's athletic and tough as nails, but a complete nut case; but she has a 2 year old filly who's Dash with Perks on top and Streakin' Six on bottom and has a lot of Hancock in her earlier lines... and Rosie is a unicorn in the making - she's athletic, and unflappable.


I wouldn't avoid a Hancock horse purely because of the name. An older Hancock horse that's been brought up right and taught the correct way can be an amazing and solid horse. A younger one may be a roll of the dice but there are sensible ones out there.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

To judge a horses quality by it's family is rediculous. Let's look at my family (don't judge me).
My father was a drunken POS. I moved out of that trailer park at 15 and never looked back. My uncle is as fine a specimen of a human being as you could ever meet. His son (my cousin) is a heroin junkie and the biggest looser ever. My family varies so much that the only thing most of us have in common is the name. Everybody has that uncle or brother or sister that they dread seeing at the family reunion. 

Was everybody in Einstein's family brilliant? …… no
Is everybody in Michael Jordans family a superb athlete? ….. no
Were all of Beetoven's family talented musicians? ….. no

I've had some horses produced by some of the top cutting horses in the country that were useless with cows.


When people label horses with human qualities it never tells me anything about the horse. It tells me everything about the owners.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

As someone who follows cow horse bloodlines and gets QHN twice a month to read Equi-stats, just seeing well-known sires and money earning dams on a set of papers doesn't guarantee a winner. There is a lot more to it. And all you are doing is trying to increase your chances of getting a stellar horse and make them marketable.
Just because a horse was a winner in the show pen doesn't always mean he will put a stamp on his get. Knowing the horses that do and with some, certain traits might not show back up a generation down or so. Knowing what crosses well together and what doesn't.
You literally need to know how to read in between the lines. Even reading Equi-stats and looking at numbers you have to take other factors in consideration and know how to break the numbers down. 


I am one that isn't a fan of the Hancock horses even for a cowboy horse. I think there's better choices out there but that's just my opinion.


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