# Horse pulling back and Barn Freakouts.



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I have done this with horses who develop the habit of pulling back. But, not in crossties. 

When I have to, I have a tire inner tube secured and tie the horse to that. I like having some "give" for the horse's head and neck when the set back against the rope.

Although I don't cross tie horses, the lesson learned does carryover to cross ties. 

We used to have a member here that talked about tying to the "patience pole." Similar thing. 

You can do this!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Sounds more like he is getting buddy sour when he loses sight of his companion...
Only happens in a barn where his visibility of other horses is reduced...:think:


_You better know what you are doing if you decide to let Bee battle out the demons on a patience pole..._
Once the battle begins you _*do not *_put yourself in danger to pull a knot loose...you then are in harms way!
Pick your battle or make the battle unneeded in the first place.
Think about what it is you want to accomplish, then plan ahead so the horse is not left alone at all so "the freak-out" doesn't begin as you will be right there to divert the attention or settle the nervous animal.


Patience poles do work...
I see them used by many a cowboy where I live...
They not only use a "pole", but a livestock trailer, a tree, any suitable strong non-movable object...

But you need to know how to use that "pole" and have the proper tack that is not going to release cause then they learn a new trick...
If the horse is anxious on a cross-tie, use a stall to clean and tack with lead shank over the arm to keep the horse safely listening...
Do not do this by yourself...if this horse flips on a aisle or in a stall...just not go their by yourself.
It can be dangerous for you in your innocence...

:runninghorse2:...
_jmo.._


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I think there is a difference in approach depending on whether the horse is claustrophobic being tied up, or whether the horse wants to be elsewhere - tied up or not. 

The former would be a desensitization exercise. I've done this with an OTTB who (according to BO) "still needs to learn to stand in the cross ties." I took the boy, clipped him in, rubbed him, gave him a carrot, then unclipped him and led him around once. Then I clipped him in again, dawdled around for a while longer loving on him, etc. I have not personally observed him getting nervous in the cross ties ever since.

If the horse really wants to be elsewhere, he'll be at risk of hurting himself to do so, because the crossties aren't the cause for his anxiety, distance is. In that case, you'd address the "distance" problem, and you don't need crossties for that. You don't teach someone not to be afraid of graveyards chaining them to a gravestone for a night.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

mmshiro said:


> I think there is a difference in approach depending on whether the horse is claustrophobic being tied up, or whether the horse wants to be elsewhere - tied up or not


What bugs me is he’s done this before. He’s been tied to a trailer in the woods, gone to shows, I put him in the crossties every week at the other barn and he was fine.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

But he now has a dedicated paddock buddy who he is attached to....
How distracted is he when you ride?
Are you able to keep his attention solely on you and your activity or is he looking around, calling and just unsettled?


Just sounds buddy sour to me...
Unpleasant to deal with but you need to be a firm rider and ask, tell and demand his attention is where it needs to be...on working with you!
:runninghorse2:...


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Right or wrong - when I have one that sets back and freaks out like this, I just get of their way, let them get after it. The only time I rescue is if they fall down and can't get up. BUT. I don't use crossties. Trailer, hitching post, hi line at camp, steel posts to the shed/lean to... 

I just calmly move out of the blast zone, let them get to it, and wait until they figure out they're not doing themselves any favors. Then go on with the day like it never happened. If it's just a matter of them wanting loose, they soon figure it out - it doesn't work, so they quit.

The only one I had that this would backfire on was Sarge. He'd throw himself down and couldn't get up... necessitating me cutting the lead rope... or he'd pull hard enough he'd skin his poll, but he'd pop the rope halter off and he knew he could do it. He was hard core buddy soured and low confidence. He'd do this when he couldn't see other horses.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

DreamerR said:


> What bugs me is he’s done this before. He’s been tied to a trailer in the woods, gone to shows, I put him in the crossties every week at the other barn and he was fine.


So it sounds to me as though it's not the restricted freedom of movement that he worries about, so you could maybe start by confining him in a different, less risky way first - a safer environment for him to throw his tantrum. Like a stall?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I had one learn how to break the lead rope. Once he figured that out - he was loose every show and all the time. That was back when I used just a nylon halter. I use the rope halters now, although I wouldn't use it for a horse that's pulling back and fighting.

Is this one your horse or someone elses?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

DreamerR said:


> he got his foot caught in the hogwire fence and ripped the entire fence line down.. thats besides the point.


Hi, yes, that's dangerous fencing for horses. Very lucky he didn't hurt himself badly.



> BO thinks that he does it because he thinks he can get away with it because I pull the quick release knot when he begins and let him run into the barn yard. So she thinks we should tie him up and let him freakout until he settles down. Of course if it became dangerous for him we would let him go.


Yes, while it may not have been the original cause of the freakout, you are training him this behaviour works to get him released! Unfortunately, now you've done so, he will fight harder if it doesn't work. And to plan to let him off 'if it became dangerous'(how do you decide when that is??) you will be reinforcing him for doing THAT! 

Very little info here but sounds like the pony is worried about being tied alone in a strange new place? Depends a bit on the degree of fear, etc, but I'd be inclined to work on his confidence separately, and use a long rope with a tie ring, or some such, to *reteach* him not to panic & pull when tied.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

So heres an update. I brought him into the barn on Saturday, while I had a 101 degree fever, and tied him up. There was a lot going on in the barn because the trainer was mucking stalls/ pressure washing/ blowing the dirt out. We walked him around with all the machines on and he didn't care so I just tied him up in our normal spot. He was pretty good while I was tacking him up although he kept looking back at Chase and his body language seemed..... nervous. Once the saddle was on I was talking to the trainer about something and he freaked out. I just stood off to the side and kept talking to him. He managed to knock down a wooden saddle stand and a bunch of other things and once again he ended up on the ground. I untied him and made him get up and then I walked him back in and tied him up. He was a mess after that and kept walking around and acting antsy and looking backwards at the gate. 

What bugs me about this is that there is NO reason why he needs to be doing this. He has been left alone tied to the trailer at shows. He was been around town at lots of different venues. He has been on the cracker trail if anyone knows what that is. He's done birthday parties, parades, and there is nothing "scary" about our barn. He's just being difficult. I'm not sure what to do. I don't even know if I should just keep on repeating our routine. This is not ok behavior and I should be able to bring JUST him down to the barn. Ughhhhhhhhh.....


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

**Please note, I have strong opinions on this, as it is a serious wreck in the making, so I am meaning to write 'strongly'. It's also clear you don't have much understanding of horse psychology - I am NOT meaning to sound like I'm putting you down on that - it is what it is & we're all at different stages of understanding/education about horses, we ALL have more to learn... So, what I mean is, don't take what I say as 'having a go' at you...



DreamerR said:


> So heres an update. I brought him into the barn on Saturday, while I had a 101 degree fever, and tied him up. There was a lot going on in the barn because the trainer was mucking stalls/ pressure washing/ blowing the dirt out. ... his body language seemed..... nervous.


Every Single Time you put him in this kind of situation, without being considerate of his emotions, without proper preparation, desensitisation, you are *confirming* to him this IS all something to worry about. Sounds like it's on the way to becoming habitual now. And he is likely to hurt himself seriously at some point, probably also break more than a saddle stand too & be dangerous to any other person or horse in the vicinity. As I said before, expect him to get worse, fight harder, if you don't address the *fear* behind the reactions.



> I was talking to the trainer about something and he freaked out. I just stood off to the side and kept talking to him.


Were you keeping talking to the trainer, or were you talking to the horse? If you were trying to calm the horse by just talking to him, you need to understand, animals learn from association, so all you're doing there is associating your voice with the terror. Just like having a terrified dog at the vets & having the vet nurse say 'it's all right, good boy...' in soothing tones... which become sounds the dog associates with situations that are clearly NOT OK to it.



> What bugs me about this is that there is NO reason why he needs to be doing this.


You are just SO wrong there. There is EVERY reason for him to feel the *need* to do this, and as said, every single time you put him in a 'sink or swim' situation like that, you are effectively _training_ him, causing him to get more 'solid' in this attitude/reactivity.

Even from a human perspective - and we're _supposed_ to be able to think rationally - just because someone has been fine with stuff in the past doesn't mean they will always be, or 'should' always be. Haven't you ever been fine with something until something happens & you develop a fear of it? Go read the arachnophobia thread & you'll see there are people who were fine with stuff until.... I for eg. was fine with deep water until I got caught in a rip when I was about 14yo.



> there is nothing "scary" about our barn. He's just being difficult. I'm not sure what to do. I don't even know if I should just keep on repeating our routine.


Again, to emphasise, keep repeating the 'routine' and you will cause him to become more & more confirmed in it - he will get 'better' with practice at it - not only being frightened in that situation, but if you're the common denominator, he will get more nervous & untrusting with you too.

I am NOT judging in saying this - everyone has to start somewhere - but saying he has 'no reason', that there is 'nothing scary' is only showing that you don't have a very good understanding at all about horse psychology & behaviour. 

I wonder, that you have a trainer on hand - who was right there when it happened this time - what do they have to say about it?? Have you not asked their advice? Have you not got other experienced horse people who can help you with the horse & help you learn?? If not, I suggest you find some.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I agree completely with Loosie. You're not looking at this the right way at all. He's not doing this to be difficult. That's not how horses think. Horses do not do this for "no reason". There's a reason. A good horseman finds the reason and addresses it. Something is frightening or hurting him. I had one that did a completely uncharacteristic flip over backward while tied at a friend's barn, and she later found out that her electric was grounding wrong and would shock the horses in that spot on a wet day. Your horse sounds anxious and worried. He works himself up until he has no choice but to 'explode'. It doesn't come out of nowhere, you're just missing the signs. 

The more you repeat this, the worse he'll get because the more often he does this, the more he's training himself to do it. I would bet this horse really isn't comfortable in the barn and also doesn't really understand how to tie on top of separation anxiety when he's not with the other horse. He's 'looks' fine until he gets nervous and feels like he has to move, then finds out he can't, then panics. He really doesn't sound like the horses that simply lean back on a rope until it breaks because they know they can (halter pullers). He sounds scared. Your response to this shows you're in over your head. You need professional help with this horse, but not someone who is simply going to tie him up with something that won't break and let him 'work it out.' That only makes the problem worse for anxious horses. He needs to learn how to give to pressure properly and deal with his anxiety. In the meantime, look into Blocker Tie Rings for tying this horse. From your descriptions, it sounds like this horse is anxious when your other horse isn't with him. Eventually his 'worry cup' overflows and the slightest thing will set him off. He doesn't feel safe with you, so he panics when his friend isn't with him. The tying issue is the symptom. The cause is anxiety. Punishing him for this or putting him in the same situations expecting a different result is ludicrous. He can't help it. You need to help him deal with his anxiousness and feel safe with you.


I'd suggest a subscription to Warwick Schiller's online training library. Start at the beginning with both of your horses, and I think you'll see a big difference-- not only in your horses, but in yourself and how you learn to read and interact with your animals.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

"He's just doing this to be difficult" : something people say when they don't understand animals. 

Not even people do things "just to be difficult" although unlike animals they may have an agenda hidden so deep they themselves can't find it. But animals NEVER do. He is doing this for a reason, and it is your job to 1.figure out why and 2. figure out how to communicate the proper way to behave in such a way that he is able to learn it.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

boots said:


> I have done this with horses who develop the habit of pulling back. But, not in crossties.
> 
> When I have to, I have a tire inner tube secured and tie the horse to that. I like having some "give" for the horse's head and neck when the set back against the rope.
> 
> ...





we haven't heard from her in quite a while, but @Cherie addressed this rather well. I don't think she called it a patience pole. But her method was to tie a horse to a STRONG overhead tree branch. She emphasized the importance of tying higher than the withers because a horse tied level or lower than that can dislocate its' neck with permanent damage. 


She said make sure the ground is clear of obstructions and soft, in case the horse throws itself down. The rope should be long enough for the horse to reach hay on the ground, but not long enough to step over. She would observe the horse, making sure it had access to water and hay, removing the water bucket if it was a potential obstruction. She said it could take all day, maybe two.


I agree with other commenters that the OP is unwittingly training this behavior into the horse by releasing it when it gets exited.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I do have to agree that something has changed, the question is what....


That said...
When you cross-tie him you face him away from the paddock and sight of his pasture buddy.
What if you turn around the horse in the ties so easily see their companion...
Till you figure this out, I wonder if the sight of the buddy would not help to quiet and calm...


Now, your other thread you refer to taking this horse on a week-long trail ride...
You must find the reason and fix this issue or it will not be safe for the horse to be tied, picket-lined at night so you can and must sleep and rest to ride the next day.
100% cured of this...rock-steady tied, lined or hobbled is a must for safety of all the horses on this ride.
:runninghorse2:....


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

loosie said:


> I wonder, that you have a trainer on hand - who was right there when it happened this time - what do they have to say about it?? Have you not asked their advice? Have you not got other experienced horse people who can help you with the horse & help you learn?? If not, I suggest you find some.


I think we've already talked about how this trainer isn't very helpful. Her horse hasn't had very many problems with her. The rest of her horses are dead broke lesson ponies so my guess is that shes just kind of winging it. However, basically she said that he's just being buddy sour and doing it because he knows he can get away with it. 

Thanks for all the feedback! I do not know much about horse psychology because I grew up riding HER deadbroke lesson ponies, which I'm not mad about because it was easier to learn on horses that knew what they were doing, while I didn't know what to do.

So I think what I'm going to do when I go to the barn today is bring both of them down to the barn and put Chase on the crossties and Bee tied to the post, nearby but not close enough that they can kick. I'll just groom him and give him treats so its a good experience. Do you think that if I give him enough "good experiences" in the barn he will feel safe enough to be there alone? 

I am hoping to have him able to be in alone long before the cracker trail, and a bunch of horses he knows will be there so he won't be completely alone.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

DreamerR said:


> I am hoping to have him able to be in alone long before the cracker trail, and a bunch of horses he knows will be there so he won't be completely alone.


Do you have a way to haul him for a day ride out to meet someone you will be camping with? That may give you a good indicator of how the big trip will go. Sometimes hauling a buddy sour horse without their friend to a not-familiar place "fixes" the problem because it gives the horse something else to focus on (hopefully you). But other times it means the horse is upset in the trailer, won't stand once you arrive at the trailhead, etc. I would want to know which of these Bee is before even thinking about an overnight trip.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

phantomhorse13 said:


> Do you have a way to haul him for a day ride out to meet someone you will be camping with? That may give you a good indicator of how the big trip will go. Sometimes hauling a buddy sour horse without their friend to a not-familiar place "fixes" the problem because it gives the horse something else to focus on (hopefully you). But other times it means the horse is upset in the trailer, won't stand once you arrive at the trailhead, etc. I would want to know which of these Bee is before even thinking about an overnight trip.


When it gets to about 3-4 months before the trip we will start hauling him to state parks and such with my BOs horses because she is going aswell, and he has to be able to handle riding 20 miles a day, so I guess we'll see then.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Thought I’d update... so I just tacked him up and I’m waiting for my riding buddy to get here, but even with Chase at the barn he had a tiny freak out. Since I’m out here alone right now I didn’t want to let it get to a point where he was on the ground so I just walked him out and changed locations. So now he’s tied right outside the barn on half of a cross tie, anxiety free just chilling. I don’t even know what to do but for now this is our new tack up spot.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

This is why both my horse's have learned it's ok to be in barn alone. My gelding has a tendency to pull back breaking what he's tied to. 

I'm using whats called the clip.Can adjust the tension so lead rope doesn't pull through very easy. I still don't tie hard and fast I loop rope over rail. 

By letting him loose you're training him to freak out.

I don't use cross ties. You have an option of using a portable corral when camping. Horse better tie well and reliably if you're going to camp for a week. Don't want to get up and find your horse has gone missing, because he broke free over night. 

Have a freind who's horse broke free while camping. By morning horse was long gone, she was heading home. Was found 8 miles away heading for a major highway. She broke her lead rope that was used to tie her with.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Find a bicycle inner tube, tie it to one of those live oaks in the background, at least a FOOT above his head, and above a limb, tie a sturdy leadrope to him, and leave him. Do this EVERY DAY

When you start tying him in the barn, tie him HIGHER than his head. He can get the purchase to pull back.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

DreamerR said:


> groom him and give him treats so its a good experience. Do you think that if I give him enough "good experiences" in the barn he will feel safe enough to be there alone?


IF he is OK in that situation, your grooming(if he actually enjoys that) and treats will strengthen his attitude that this is a Good situation to be in. If he isn't OK, then this could just cause him to have a prob tying up in the barn regardless whether he has a mate there. And no, tying him up with his mate there will not help get him comfortable being alone.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

*Pulling Back*

I guess this is part 2 of Bees problems.

So the pulling back has not stopped, it has in fact gotten worse. I reached out to my his old owner and she just said she was stumped because it wasn't like him at all. But I'm starting to think thats untrue. The farrier is both my farrier and hers and he was trimming Bee last week. His daughter who used to ride with the rescue for fun was out with him and we were talking about what has been going on. I was like, "Under saddle he's doing great but when I tie him up he has started pulling back." Before he could say anything his daughter blurted out, "Oh yeah I remember her telling me that he sits back sometimes when he's tied up." Her dad snapped at her was like "Do NOT put words in her mouth if you aren't 100% sure!" but I think its odd that she would say that if it wasn't true.... 

Anyways, thats besides the point. Do you think if I put him into a stall so he couldn't back up, or put something really heavy right behind him it would prevent him from pulling back? I'm kind of running out of ideas so any advice helps. Thanks in advance... 

I have time to work with him today so I may take a video of what he is doing.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)




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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Also, in my personal experience (But I think you're using cross ties, I don't) I usually just let them have at it... they USUALLY learn it's of no benefit to them and can get them hurt if they carry on with their nonsense. Counterpoint: Superman and Sarge are/were both notorious for this, and it is/was because they know they can set back hard enough to pop the halter over their head - I use rope halters and they have some stretch to them. 

ALL my other horses have learned to Not Do that. Even wee Outback decided she needed to be dumb after a worming and set back hard... and I let her have at it. I casually moved out of the blast zone, waited for the dust to settle, went right back to what I was doing like it never happened. I was, however, prepared to cut the rope if she'd have fallen down and was getting choked out.


She did this in the pasture two nights ago, so hard she threw herself completely down while working on ground work and lead rope desensitization... so since she was on the ground she was treated like we'd laid her down on purpose. She did it twice - after the second round she decided she probably shouldn't do that. Haven't had her do it again since then.

I'm not suggesting you intentionally lay him down by any means, it's dangerous and may or may not help, so not worth the risk. But. Most horses learn to stop that after they encounter the pressure from the halter and realize they get the release from stopping their nonsense. They don't like to lose their footing - instinct tells them the horse that falls down gets eaten. A few individuals, however, may learn how to pop their halter off that way and feel it's worth the risk of getting hurt or falling down and being eaten.

So. The question is: WHY is he setting back? Has he learned in the past he might can pop off his halter and win free? Has he learned it will dissuade you from 'holding him hostage' any longer than necessary and thus,yes, he gets free? Is he doing this out of fear or impatience? Is he buddy sour/herd bound and panicking when Pal is out of sight (Sarge doing this was a compound problem of extreme buddy sour and knowing he could stretch a rope halter enough to pop it over his ears and get loose) 



I think the WHY would be helpful to know.

Please do try to get us a video. It would help tremendously, I think.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> So. The question is: WHY is he setting back? Has he learned in the past he might can pop off his halter and win free? Has he learned it will dissuade you from 'holding him hostage' any longer than necessary and thus,yes, he gets free? Is he doing this out of fear or impatience? The WHY would be helpful to know.
> 
> 
> 
> Please do try to get us a video. It would help tremendously, I think.


I’ll make sure to get a video. He has learned that considering he gets his halter off and/or breaks a lead rope everytime. He’s ended up on the ground 2 times. I’ll just let him fight it out again today and see what happens. I’ll upload the video around 4ish


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

In the past I used a yacht rope and attached a heavy duty bull snap, neither the rope nor the snap ever broke even with the worst pullers. I would recommend getting some gear he can't break, or else he will just keep breaking it.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

So... now I see this is the horse with WLD. I have been blessed to never have to battle this, but is it possible this horse is in pain and anticipating more pain?


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> So... now I see this is the horse with WLD. I have been blessed to never have to battle this, but is it possible this horse is in pain and anticipating more pain?


I don’t think so because he is still being ridden and doesn’t seem to be in pain..


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Blocker tie ring and a rope halter with a LONG yacht line lead. Start with 30 feet or so. Put him in a round pen or spot with good footing. He'll pull back but the rope will run and he will stop. Let him settle a few moments, then lead him back forward and snug the rope up. Rinse and repeat. Most horses get markedly better the first session. After awhile he will start going back less and less each time because there's nothing to fight against. As he improves you can shorten the rope. Eventually he will not set back no matter what you do. Put the blockers in places you tie him and never tie him without one until he's gone at least six months without setting back. Ditch the cross ties until he ties well the usual way. They are dangerous if your horse pulls back.

Most horses pull back because they never really learned to tie well in the first place. Letting them fight it out can easily result in a broken neck or spinal/poll damage.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Did you ever tie him to that tree? ALWAyS be sure he is tied ABOVE him head, as he cannot get any purchase to pull back that way!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I hate horses that will not tie hard. 

What I would do was have a long rope, thread it through the ring and hold the end moving to the side and rear of the horse. Play the waiting game and when he pulls back whack him HARD on the butt to send him forward. 

Many moons back in the last century a horse was tied to heavy wood railings. He had always been OK tied before but he suddenly pulled back lifting two posts concreted into the ground and four railings. He took off and fortunately went into the arena charging around dragging the posts and rails with him. 

Unfortunately we were just mounting the beginners and many ended up on the deck as the ponies scuttled out the way. 

After this incident this horse would not tie. He would for about five minutes and then back he would go, often landing on the floor. 

One day he was being shod. He was tied and the old farrier working on him. I was mucking out the stalls behind him when he came flying back. I lifted the prong and he ran back into it. 
The tynes did puncture his skin. I treated the wounds but one formed an abscess so the vet was called. He looked at the abscess on the side of his tail and insisted it was a warble fly. 

I never disagreed with him. 

That horse never pulled back again.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ I hate a horse that won't tie too, but the blocker ring works so you can get a horse who will tie reliably and safely with training without getting anyone hurt. It's also something the OP can do safely herself rather than trying to correct him at the right time, tie him to a tree and let him fight it out without killing himself, or continue to struggle through him throwing himself down, etc. She lacks a reliable mentor, so the safest option is what I'm suggesting for her.

I had one horse cure himself of this delightful little habit by slipping and falling, and before I could get to him to release his rope so he could get up, a gust of wind blew a tarp off the hay stack right over him. I untied him and he just laid there for awhile, clearly working through a deep thought process. He got up, I retied him, and he never did it again. A friend's mare pulled back right into an electric fence, and that solved her problem, too. Still, neither are methods I'd recommend, especially for the OP who lacks some experience and a good mentor. I'll hobble break a horse that won't tie before I work on the tying, and that often makes a huge difference. A lot of horses simply don't know how to deal with confinement, and fight. A horse can fight hobbles without hurting himself. Once he realizes it's ok, then I'll hobble him and toss the line over the fence but not tie it, or use a blocker ring. It doesn't take long before I can tie one anywhere. Still, I wouldn't recommend the OP hobble her horse without a good mentor and a safe place to do it. 

I've only ever had one horse that couldn't be tied, but he certainly was justified in his concern for it given his past. I just hobbled him, and it was a minor problem on what was otherwise a fabulous horse. He'd stand at the trailer or hitch rail all day with hobbles and the rope tossed over the rail or through the ring, but if his head was restricted, he'd fight until he passed out. He had a history of horrific abuse, so it was something I was willing to concede as it really was the only thing he never really got over, and it wasn't a big deal. You could drop the lead rope and groom and saddle him, so there wasn't much need to actually tie him anyway.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I watched his second attempt at 10% speed (around 3:40), and he took off the pressure while the horse was pulling back full strength. Jussayin.... 



AtokaGhosthorse said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUAtyCwoAG0


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> One day he was being shod. He was tied and the old farrier working on him. I was mucking out the stalls behind him when he came flying back. I lifted the prong and he ran back into it.
> 
> ...
> 
> That horse never pulled back again.


I heard about a milder version of this. If the horse sets back when tied, especially in a barn aisle, just pile up a whole bunch of junk behind him, like a tower of plastic water jugs, buckets...something that creates an immense ruckus when he backs into it and it collapses, but won't actually do anything to injure him. (Make sure he's pointed towards a clear exit, just in case.)


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Get one of these,

https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/blocker-tie-ring-6004

Or one of these,

https://smarttieproducts.com/products/clip/

Set them very snug, and have a long rope. They can't get any leverage to pull back because the rope slips (gradually, with tension) through. I've heard of these curing the pulling-back, and in the meantime they're a fantastic safety measure for the people AND the horse.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

mmshiro said:


> I watched his second attempt at 10% speed (around 3:40), and he took off the pressure while the horse was pulling back full strength. Jussayin....




Yeah, not a perfect instructional vid, but it's a place to start anyway.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

DreamerR said:


> Anyways, thats besides the point. Do you think if I put him into a stall so he couldn't back up, or put something really heavy right behind him it would prevent him from pulling back? I'm kind of running out of ideas so any advice helps. Thanks in advance...


No to the 'something heavy(??!). Yes, IF he is comfortable in a stall, put him in there rather than tying him, when you need him in the barn to get tacked up, whatever.

You have been given lots of 'ideas' on the other thread, but you haven't said what you've been doing about it (except tying him to see if he's got over it). So what HAVE you tried, if you're running out of ideas??


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My mare has decided the horse trailer is a scary place to be tied. Fortunately she hasn't learned to break ties yet. Her complaint is the scary squeaky door to the tack room or if i make noise in the tack room. 

It is a new trailer so she hasn't been around it that much, but she never had that problem with the old one. Of course the old one didn't have a tack room. 

I think i will be feeding her there in the near future. 

She ties most of the time. Only pulls back if something spooks her. 

I agree with Silver Maple.

The goal should be to teach the horse to give to pressure by walking forward. A long rope helps because you don't want them learning to escape. You can pull them forward with a long rope, once the freak out stops.


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## bayleysours (Apr 1, 2019)

Usually what I do with horses that pull back is just let them pull. They'll give up eventually after they realize it's no use. If I know one pulls back, I'll put a mule tape or a rope halter (really anything that they can not break) on them and let them stand tied all day long. The biggest thing is to use a halter and lead rope they can't break so they don't get that "give" their looking for.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Did you take a video?

Those blocker tie rings & clips are a good idea. I wouldn't recommend doing anything crazy. Especially since you probably wouldn't be comfortable nor safe doing so. When he panics, how do you react? Do you see the signs before he tries to pull back? He should eventually learn it's not getting him anywhere.
Do you know WHY he may be pulling back? Pain? Buddy sour?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Poptart & co, there is another thread; https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/barn-freakouts-802741/ This probably should have been merged with that one, as not helpful to start another thread on the same subject.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

If you have a claustrophobic horse - my Arabian mare was one, after her breeder tied her short to a post as her first experience of human handling, and hit her with a yellow raincoat until she was foaming to "teach her that she can't get away" before I bought her (what it did teach her is to hate men for a long time, and to be claustrophobic) - it might make a difference whether you tie it short or give it a bit more lead rope. My mare would freak out, sweat and try to pull back if anyone tied her really short. But if I let the rope loop down a little when tying, she was fine, didn't freak out and didn't run back. She was also fine in cross-ties, but never lost her anxiety about being tied ultra-short, which wasn't a problem because I just let her have a bit more lead rope, and I don't generally tie my horses short anyway unless they're "normal" horses and being a pain.

Australian horseman Tom Roberts had many suggestions for fixing the problem of horses pulling back, to augment conventional approaches. One was to tie the horse to a heavy truck tyre on the ground that would give a little if the horse pulled back - enough not to break any gear - but be uncomfortable to shift around, and so the horse had time to work out cause and effect without risk of gear breakage or snapping its neck if it got hysterical. Another horse he was asked to work with was really hysterical when running back, and broke all the conventional halters doing so. Instead of tying this one with "unbreakable gear", he tried something else to teach it cause and effect: Tied it to a baling twine, which snapped before the horse could make painful pressure on its own head with the halter. Then tied it to a double baling twine - which was slightly more uncomfortable and took longer to break. Then tied it to a triple baling twine, etc etc. And soon, this horse gave up pulling, because it noticed that it was causing all that scary "a monster is eating my head" pressure with its own actions. So for that horse, that was the solution, and it never ran back or broke gear again. It all depends on why they run back - whether it's fear, or whether they've learnt to get away and want to get away again.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

https://youtu.be/daRX4YK4PfQ


Ok so here’s a video. He doesn’t have a full freakout in this one. This is just his ****y, nervous body language. Please keep in mind that he had 4 MAJOR freak outs before this which is why I’m so nervous and jumpy. He is double haltered, and I didn’t realize the rope halter was loose until I watched back later. While I was tightening up the lead rope after the first one he did it again with my fingers stuck in the rope. I now have 2 broken fingers. Anyways. Enjoy.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I see a nervous horse looking for a reason to explode. Your tentativeness around him is understandable, but isn't helping matters. He sees you're nervous, thus he's nervous.


Have you tried a blocker tie ring with this horse? I'd put one on that post, and leave him tied for a few hours every day, with you nearby, of course. Use a LONG rope to start with, so it feeds through and never really releases him. When he runs back, he won't meet much resistance but will still think he's tied. Then you walk him back forward tightening the rope up again and rinse and repeat.


When you go saddle him, walk up there and set the saddle on. Don't try to sneak it on him. Keep a hand on him while you move around in case he sets back, but don't expect him to do that. If you act like you have a jumpy horse, you will train your horse to be jumpy. If you act like he's an old, broke rope horse, then he'll start to act like one.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

I'm just going to throw this out from left field....

The way he is stamping only his back feet, kicking and swishing his tail makes me think he is uncomfortable or something is stinging him.

Did you spray him with grooming spray or fly spray before this video?

Salty does this when his legs are sprayed with fly spray or when he has static electricity in his tail or on his legs.

What would happen if you untied him and had him stand in the same spot -- is it a response to being tied or a response to a perceived irritation or pain, or a response to the idea of being tacked up? 

I know it's not common in the English world, but can you teach him to ground tie?


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Sorry about your broken fingers. I do not understand why you keep acting like you want help. You have not implanted one single suggestion from people who have dealt with horses like this.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

If I interacted with a horse like this, I would begin by rewarding him every single time he relaxes. There were moments when he stood still and had his leg cocked - I'd untie him, take him grazing for two or three minutes, then tie him again. Each time he gets to be patient a little bit longer. I would not power through, throw on the saddle, as though it was his job to stand still and I'm just working around his willful obstinance. That's not how it works. Think about how you can make "tying" a win-win scenario for the both of you.

I don't know whether the tail and leg action was about pestering insects, but if so, I'd get some hardcore fly spray on him, pronto. There is no need to add aggravating factors when you're trying to teach him to deal with a stressful situation.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

DreamerR said:


> https://youtu.be/daRX4YK4PfQ
> 
> 
> Ok so here’s a video. He doesn’t have a full freakout in this one. This is just his ****y, nervous body language. Please keep in mind that he had 4 MAJOR freak outs before this which is why I’m so nervous and jumpy. He is double haltered, and I didn’t realize the rope halter was loose until I watched back later. While I was tightening up the lead rope after the first one he did it again with my fingers stuck in the rope. I now have 2 broken fingers. Anyways. Enjoy.


Have you ordered any of the safety tying equipment that everyone keeps recommending to you, over and over?

This situation is dangerous for you, obviously, and also dangerous to the horse. You keep asking for advice about it, and then ignoring the extremely good advice everyone is giving you.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm seeing a few things...in no particular order...
First off you are scared to death of this horse and_ it shows..._
Not only shows but the horse is totally aware of it and is capitalizing on it with you.
Nit picky but when you attach your saddle girth you do the off-side, _right side first_, that way your final adjustments are done from the left...
English horses are taught tacking up practices are left side oriented...yes, small things like this can set off sensitive animals.
However, the horse continually looks back at his belly, his side and to me is trying to tell you something is bothering him...what it is I don't know but horse body language speaks volumes.
I understand you were trying to show a explosion...what I saw was a horse impatient and you dragging your heels and taking a ridiculous amount of time...
The longer you took the more anxious he became...he looked for you for reassurance repeatedly and you did not give it to him...
He throws his head because when you approach him hand held high, palm flat to his face he sees that as a strike and threat of a smack...yes, he is going to react.
Instead try approaching him from near his muzzle, under his lower jawbone and palm extended upward so he can scent your hand... 
When you go to touch him, touch him with gentle, firm kindness..talk to him. Use your voice...if nervous, quietly sing...yes, sing. It is a stress reliever even though you not realize it.
You feed him your nerves and insecurity repeatedly with how you approach him.
The hind leg strike-out is either a pain reaction or impatience but it is a bad habit happening. 
I would be figuring a way to get that habit stopped before he connects with you and shatters your bones.
I'm hoping that when you are actually just riding, you prepare first...bring all your tack and supplies to where he will be cross-tied first, then get the horse. 
Clean and tack him and get going...not hide out, not procrastinate...get tacked and get it going, period. Some horses do not have great patience and get very agitated with what this just showed.
_So...when you use to ride Bee did you always use your saddle or did you use the previous owners tack?_
Being this is a new issue since you have taken ownership my mind keeps going to your saddle and if there is a problem with it and it really bothers Bee...
He didn't start to stress greatly till you put saddle cloth and saddle sitting on his spine...
Once you dared to attach a girth his belly kicks got pointed in strike range of his belly underside...and lashing out behind.
I did not see a blow-up or pull back...nothing.
I saw agitation and anxiety in his body language...he wiggled, he moved...he did not pull-back once, not even attempted it.
I saw trepidation and scared in your body language too...
You are both feeding off of each other.
This is a lot of horse, he's big and he's a high strung animal you are dealing with.
You don't have the experience to deal with this alone...
Again, your support network is lacking and this is where you need support, watching educated eyes to help you and don't have them available...so you move along alone unguided creating issue where there wasn't one but now is.
_That trainer person working with Chase...can you have them work with Bee and you observe and see how they do, when they do and what is different from what you do?_
I will guarantee you a experienced rider and handler would not be having such issues as you...
There is a underlying quiet authority that comes from handling many horses of various temperaments...you have not had exposure to any high-strung horses before and now are over-faced...it shows.
Hands-on and some serious tutelage are needed for you to handle Bee's attitude and behaviors...
You need to get riding exposure with a good riding instructor, in a boarding/lesson barn where you can also be watched and have corrected some of the bad habits you've been allowed or more likely not taught proper ways of doing things ever before. 
It matters and it means a difference in what you now have and what Bee was when you got him...
My words are not meant to be cruel but I see what others may not or are afraid to say...
Bee is a big horse with attitude of a Thoroughbred of not much patience for those inexperienced.
He has got your number and is now using that to his advantage.
I would though be getting him checked by the vet to make sure he is not ailing from something, get your saddle truly checked out by a saddler for worn, loose or broken parts as I saw so much once the saddle arrived so did the problems magnify...there is a correlation between those things and some others touched upon.
I'm so sorry about your fingers...you learned a valuable lesson and got away light with only breaking them and not amputating them...
Your fingers will hurt and ache for a few weeks...a reminder to be watchful of where you put your body parts with any animal.

:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Your scared of your horse your jumpy and making him jumpy. You tiptoe around making horse even more nervous. You set saddle pad on and take a very long time to put saddle on.

Then get saddle on to have horse kicking with hinds you dinking around being jumpy. If horse would of pulled back saddle not cinched up it would of come off further scarring horse and escalating the pulling back.

Very obvious your in over your head with this horse. You're fueling the fire it shows in the video horse needs a confident handler not a scared one. 

He should be tied with the clip or blocker tie ring. Honestly I think you being nervous/ jumpy is the cause of horse doing what he does.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

I get anxiety. I really, really do.

Salty reflects my anxiety. When I am tense and defensive, Salty gets fidgety, tense and defensive. He started being relaxed and easy to tack up when I started relaxing, breathing, being affectionate and taking my time. 

I know 100% how easy this sounds and how hard it is to actually do. 

Can you choose a different place to tack up? Spend time grooming and then just putting him up? Work on relaxing your own tension and breathing and giving him some reassurance? Spend some non-demanding time just hanging out near him without an agenda?

Time. Understanding that you're both nervous and tense. Small steps and quitting while you're ahead. Little wins instead of forcing things. 

Some horses are trusting and bond right away, some take a lot of time, it has taken almost a year for me and Salty to relax and quit making each other crazy. Hang in there!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

OK, so what IS with the kicking & stomping? He's a very unhappy camper! 

He's definitely on edge, so any little thing could set him off. And you have tied him, again. A situation that you know to result in panic. I just don't get why you keep doing this? You then put the saddle on then leave him alone with it not girthed up - then attach the girth but walk & stand around without doing it up. Considering he is already on edge, already had lots of 'practice' in panicking when tied, what do you suppose would happen if that saddle fell off him? Especially when you're standing around on the off side of where it's most likely to land?? Please be more mindful of his & your own safety! 

I gather the 'baby talking' we can hear is you, trying to calm him down? That is something that people commonly do, but in effect, all you're doing is associating your voice & that tone with a stressful situation. That means your voice is then associated with stress even in normal situations. So it's best not to say anything really. At one point, I hear someone tell someone to 'cut it out!' or such. If it was you at the horse, regardless whether it's valid or not, to tell him off for something once, in the middle of a long session is not going to be understood or fair. You need to be consistent with horses. Oh and I know a lot of people slap their horses as a kind of 'praise' but this is not very helpful either. Horses generally don't like it, and at best they're desensitised to enduring it.

As for 'double haltering' I don't know why you're doing that, but do not tie firm in a rope halter! They're thin, strong and can very easily, seriously hurt a horse that pulls back hard! As for your mistake of getting fingers in the way doing up the lead, yeah, this is easily done if you're not being careful - I know someone who popped his thumb right off, when it got caught in a loop of rope & the horse took off. Always keep in mind other bits of your body that can get tangled when leading/dealing with horses, and be mindful of your safety in everything you do.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

I wanted to get the tie ring. However the BO said that she doesn't think we should. Its not necessarily that I have to listen to what she says, but it is her barn and I can't go drilling things into it if she doesn't want me to. There is no other place for me to tack up because in my pasture he would easily pull down anything I tied him to. 

My mom however told me that she thinks we should get the tie ring anyways. Which I agree with. I'll explain to the BO when I see her tomorrow. 

The reason the girth saddle was on and the girth was attached for so long without me finishing it was because the way he was standing was sideways, and if he went off again then he would've straightened out and ran me over. Which is what I was explaining to my dad in the video, you can hear me say, "I don't want to do this because he could run me over.... But I have to do it anyways." Or something along those lines. 

The reason for the double halters was because when he does it we can't let him get away with breaking loose. This way he remains tied up when it happens. 

I had to tie him up. If he doesn't get ridden consistently then he'll buck and develop other bad habits. 

Also, yes, I am afraid of him, very afraid. I tried to act confident when we he was tied in the beginning, but after his first couple of freakouts I get nervous and it shows. He's big. Very big. and Very strong. And getting run over is something I would like to avoid. 

As for saddle fit, this is the same saddle I rode him in for the past two years and he's never had problems with it before. But I am getting a custom saddle for Chase after months of saving up so when the fitter comes out I'll ask him to take a look at him too. 

I'll order the tie blocker ring. Hopefully it works.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

DreamerR said:


> As for saddle fit, this is the same saddle I rode him in for the past two years and he's never had problems with it before. But I am getting a custom saddle for Chase after months of saving up so when the fitter comes out I'll ask him to take a look at him too.


Big difference in riding the horse once or twice a week and riding near every day if there is a problem with fit or saddle tree itself.
And no, it might not bother Chase nor is Chase as sensitive as this horse it seems...
All those things matter and matter huge.

I know you've heard this before and I don't want to start a parade of nasty here...
If you are afraid of him..._sell him._
He's a nice horse.
He deserves someone that can work with him to his full potential all the time...
Right now and if honest, from the very beginning you have struggled riding this horse.
Now afraid you don't enjoy having to ride him or spend time with him.
Sell him before he hurts you cause you are seriously headed that direction...broken bones or worse!
Sell him...yes, I mean that.
Selling would allow you to concentrate on Chase, a work in progress and a horse you find fun to ride, fun to be with and not thinking you are afraid of Chase...
You're working together as a team...
Your "team" with Bee doesn't exist and direction your headed never will being bluntly honest.
For Bee...truly consider selling him.
Think of having one horse to concentrate all your energies to and what that means for both of you in progressing what you learn, can apply and practice...
It also will nearly halve your financial responsibilities of food, farrier and vet...so more $$ to do that trailer thing, the showing thing you so want and enjoy!! 
:runninghorse2:...


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I could be wrong, but any chance he may have ulcers? My mare is being treated for ulcers, & she wasn't as bad, but he's showing some signs very similar to her. He looks very uncomfortable. While yes, there may be flies, the way he's cowkicking especially after the saddle is on tells me he may be in pain...just not happy.

It's not easy, but you can't act like you're afraid. He will sense that. Praise him when he relaxes. Even if he relaxes for 5 seconds, it's something - praise. Be confident. Little wins.

I wouldn't have tacked him up if he was acting that way, moving all around. I'm surprised honestly that the saddle didn't fall off (which I'm sure would've freaked him out even more). It looks like you're almost afraid to even go near him when you're saddling him up...not helping the situation at all. It's clear he senses that you are afraid or nervous.

It's almost like you are walking on eggshells in the video. You have to be assertive. Don't be afraid of him. Horses pick up on EVERYTHING. I'm sure you being nervous did not make it any better. You need to be confident. 

Have you ordered anything? Any of the tie rings etc? We've suggested these again & again...you don't seem to be taking any of the advice, yet coming back for more help. He is totally feeding off of your energy. It's only getting worse, unless you do something about it.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

horselovinguy said:


> DreamerR said:
> 
> 
> > I know you've heard this before and I don't want to start a parade of nasty here...
> ...


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

I truly am curious about your answer to the following questions....

Is he afraid of being tied? 

If you tie him next to another horse and walk away, will he stand quietly? 

If you tie him in another area, does the behavior change? 

If someone else handles him, is the behavior the same? 

If he's tied by himself without being groomed and tacked, does he stand quietly, or can he relax?

If someone stood and held his leadrope while you're tacking up, would he still be anxious?

Is he afraid of being tied, or afraid of being tacked, or dreading being ridden, or insecure about being separated from other horses, or are you the variable that is making him nervous?

Why is he stamping, kicking and violently swishing his tail? This is not normal pull back or fear behavior -- it is more indicative of discomfort or anticipation of discomfort. Are you using a spray that stings his skin? Is there a low level of electricity leaking into the damp ground right in that spot? Does his coat hold static that makes him uncomfortable?

Try to think about the problem in a systematic, scientific manner and try to isolate and eliminate variables that contribute to the behavior.

I ask questions because I used to lease a horse with a pull back problem after a loose horse ran into him and seriously injured him while he was tied at a rodeo. He was not afraid of being tied. He was not afraid of other horses acting up. He was afraid of being tied while another horse was acting up and not being able to get away. The solution was to tie him by loose wrapping his leadrope so if he pulled back, he could get loose. He wouldnt take off, he'd just look sheepish and wait to be retied.

Do you have a round pen? Can you do some groundwork with this horse and teach him some ground manners? Teach him to ground tie!!!! It ain't rocket science -- 3 of our 4 horses stand like a statue when left untied when tacked. The other (Salty) doesn't ground tie because he has a lot of past liberty training and thinks he should stroll along with me. 

Not standing tied and not leading safely and quietly is a big hole in a horse's training -- train him to relax, be patient and stand tied! This is such a valuable skill in the western world -- I don't understand why your trainer is not helping you train your horses to do this. Watch some natural horsemanship videos and do some groundwork to build some trust and partnership -- it's not all about throwing a saddle on and soaring over jumps.

I also noticed that he looked to you for reassurance multiple times and you did not provide any. There were multiple times when he looked right at you and paused, when you could have stopped and approached him and asked him to relax and drop his head and breathe and given him some soft words of reassurance and pets, but you didn't see the opportunity. He's looking for a partner and can't find one. Slow down and take time to SEE your horse and respond to his worries.

I get being untrusting due to being hurt by a horse. Salty has hurt me and it sucks. It's hard to get past, but you are a big part of the equation and need to address your own fear, as it's contributing to the problem.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Cedar & Salty said:


> I truly am curious about your answer to the following questions....
> 
> Is he afraid of being tied?
> 
> ...


I’m guessing he is afraid of being tied based on his behavior.

Chase was standing on the crossties about 10 feet away from him and he still does it. 
I
have tied him all over the barn and barn yard and he still does it. 

He has done it with me, the girl I let ride him, and the BO. 

If he’s just standing there doing nothing he’s normally fine, yesterday the first blowup happened after I started brushing him, however he was always sassy about tacking up, even before I got him. 

I tried having someone stand and hold the lead rope and he did it anyways. 

I figured he was kicking and stomping due to flies since I was out of fly spray (picked some up this morning)


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

Does he have sensitive skin? Is there any static in his coat? I have different brushes for Salty and have to use static guard spray in his brushes. 

There is discomfort or anticipation of discomfort in that horse's expression and behavior..


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

DreamerR said:


> I figured he was kicking and stomping due to flies since I was out of fly spray (picked some up this morning)
> 
> I’m sorry but I can’t even process the thought of selling him.He could end up in a bad situation, or something could happen to him and I just can’t deal with that.


From a different thread you were contemplating body clipping your horses...
With his reaction to flies with a full summer coat of hair on him and you want to remove much of it??
He will take your head off striking at , kicking out and leg swinging at his underbelly...
He is super sensitive to touch of anything and not very tolerant either...
Think real hard at what he is going to become with flies harassing him near 24/7...and they aren't "tough" yet either.

The comment about selling him you made...
If you think the situation he finds himself in now is good..._its not._
What happens if he hurts you? Seriously hurts you?
Do you truly think your parents are going to keep him around?
I can tell you if he hurt me he would be gone by my parents hand when I was a kid...
You need to think this with your head not your heart...
You were in love with Justice...everything was Justice and you couldn't live without him...
Yet you did, and you don't own him and the world did not blow apart either.
Bee is the same way...if you sold him you could pick the kind of home, the kind of owner he found...
If something happens to you, seriously happens, if you were my kid that horse having a part of the calamity would be on the first truck to a sale barn or riding horse auction, fact!
Think not with your heart alone, but with your head about what is best for Bee...*for Bee!*
Sorry, I don't mean to be cruel to you...but be very aware of what could happen if the unthinkable does...that is why no home is a "forever" in true honesty.
Do indeed make plans to work with a trainer.. but please, _please_ also realize your limitations so you remain safe...cause right now Bees actions are putting you in grave jeopardy as are your reactions to his actions.
You got guts kid...just remember you aren't Wonder Women or some super hero but a human, mortal and we do get hurt, hurt bad sometimes. :hug:
:runninghorse2:...


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

The benefit of cowboy training...

This is how two of my local professional trainer friends start their work days. Every horse is caught and tied, and they stand patiently until it is their turn, then they stand patiently until the training rides are done and everyone is put up. Ranch horses are not "shut down," as others may suggest. They are TRAINED to stand patiently tied and relax and rest until it is time to work. It is about taking the time to TRAIN good behavior.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

DreamerR said:


> I’m guessing he is afraid of being tied based on his behavior.
> 
> Chase was standing on the crossties about 10 feet away from him and he still does it.
> I
> ...


If he stands quietly tied when no one is messing with him, I doubt he's afraid of being TIED.

If he gets worried and acts up when someone is holding the leadrope, it's not about being TIED.

I think you need to explore what he is worrying about during grooming, tacking and/or being ridden. He is worried about being hurt by a person doing an activity while he is tied. When you figure that fear out, your problem will be solved.


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## Dez4455 (Mar 14, 2019)

All that horse needs is a good full day or three of being tied to a tree. Tie him to a sturdy branch above his head or drill a tie ring up there. I would wake up (around 6am), feed the horses, tie them to the tree, leave water out there (make sure it was in reach), go back out around 7pm, untie, feed, put him/her in a small paddock or stall IF they're hard to catch, and I'd do it over a day or two. Hard headed ones went on about a week.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see him even remotely try to set back in that video? 

The foot stamping and kicking was horrible. I don't know if it's flies or just agitation, but the stomping was horrible. I wouldn't ride him (personally) until he quit stomping. Maybe all that would take is fly spray, I don't know. He did relax towards the end of the video for a bit, which is good.

My very first horse would set back randomly. He could have gotten us hurt on several occasions. Once they set back, I would always expect them to do it, but I "cured" him by tying him solid with a rope halter. A "Be Nice" halter actually. I found out later you aren't supposed to tie in those. But he was my first horse and I was dumb and it worked, he learned to come forward off of pressure. But don't do what I did. 

Re-homing a horse you are afraid of isn't a bad idea at all. It's actually what I would recommend. But I know it's hard, I just did that recently with a horse I raised from a baby. It broke my heart. But I realized that if I kept going the way I was going pretty soon I would be too afraid to ride at all, and I didn't want to give up riding. Plus, I had a neighbor that was admiring my horse since he was born. So in the end it was an easy decision......once I realized that I didn't want to give up riding but I was becoming too scared to ride. And the horse has a great home and is doing great at his new place (I've ridden with them several times).

So anyway, those are my thoughts. Best of luck.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

DreamerR said:


> I wanted to get the tie ring. However the BO said that she doesn't think we should. Its not necessarily that I have to listen to what she says, but it is her barn and I can't go drilling things into


If you have a look at what a 'Blocker Tie Ring' or 'The Clip' is, you'll see there's no need to be drilling anything into anywhere. BTW I notice at the end of your post you say you'll order one & 'hopefully it works' - as with anything, it's not an automatic 'quick fix'. It will NOT 'work' without training.



> There is no other place for me to tack up because in my pasture he would easily pull down anything I tied him to.


YOU DON"T NEED TO TIE HIM UP and considering what you've told us, you ABSOLUTELY SHOULDN'T be tying this horse up at this point!! You are only setting it up to make for a major wreck and a horse who can't be tied, continuing doing what you're doing! And if you keep doing what you've always done & got the same results, it's not all that likely that if you just keep doing it, you're going to get any different results.



> The reason the girth saddle was on and the girth was attached for so long without me finishing it was because the way he was standing was sideways,


Yes, whatever your reason, I was explaining what a potential wreck _you were causing_ in doing that.



> The reason for the double halters was because when he does it we can't let him get away with breaking loose.


So... you'd rather just let him do it & break himself instead??



> I had to tie him up. If he doesn't get ridden consistently then he'll buck and develop other bad habits.


Again, no you DON'T have to tie him up, in order to tack him up or otherwise. And if he bucks etc under saddle, there are more big problems it sounds like you're ignoring...



> Also, yes, I am afraid of him, very afraid.


So you're not doing yourself any favours. Definitely doing the horse no favours. Why not find him a good home with someone who knows how to handle a horse like this.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

DreamerR said:


> horselovinguy said:
> 
> 
> > I’m sorry but I can’t even process the thought of selling him. He could end up in a bad situation,
> ...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cedar & Salty said:


> Ranch horses are not "shut down," as others may suggest. They are TRAINED to stand patiently tied and relax and rest until it is time to work. It is about taking the time to TRAIN good behavior.


Last 2 sentences there repeated for emphasis, as it's well worth repeating. ;-)

1st sentence above, I guess that's regarding a comment I made on another thread, which I may have put badly, so I then further explained there, but maybe you missed... I for one, have not at all said that 'ranch horses are shut down', as a general ranch horse 'thing'(or any other 'class' of horse I can think of) but I said that many horses, trained in certain ways, _including_ ranch horses, are 'shut down'.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

loosie said:


> You need to start thinking rationally. He IS in a bad situation now!


Sorry but I have to say I have a different opinion of this. He is in a home where he gets fed properly, ridden consistently, and is extremely loved on. I make sure his hooves are taken care of, I get his teeth checked, and he’s happily munching on hay and grazing with a horse he’s bonded with. He also has a 100% guarantee that he will never be sent to a slaughterhouse, or put in a pasture and sit for years. 

He has developed a bad habit. And whatever is needed will be done to help him. Need that be a tie ring, or a trainer. 

I put my heart and resources into making sure that they are healthy and content. I know he has something that needs to be dealt with, and it is being dealt with. I really do not appreciate being told that he is in a bad situation because he is most definitely not.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

DreamerR said:


> Sorry but I have to say I have a different opinion of this. He is in a home where he gets fed properly, ridden consistently, and is extremely loved on. I make sure his hooves are taken care of, I get his teeth checked, and he’s happily munching on hay and grazing with a horse he’s bonded with. He also has a 100% guarantee that he will never be sent to a slaughterhouse, or put in a pasture and sit for years.


I don't mean to offend or put you down, just get you thinking with your head. If he has such probs being tacked up & ridden, why do you think it's a 'good situation' _for him_ to be 'ridden consistently'? Remember, we only have what you've given us here, and from what you've told & shown, he's far from 'content' with the current situation. I don't believe any horse would complain about being 'put in a pasture & sit' rather than being made to work, esp when he has obvious issues with it either - that's not necessarily a 'bad situation' in the least. Most horses, IME don't appreciate being 'loved on extremely' either.

I do get the idea you have put your heart into this horse, but that's why I & others are suggesting to try to keep your heart out of it & think about things more rationally.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Okay, so in my opinion DO NOT actually do what this man is doing here. Don't tie that short. Don't actually MAKE your horse pull back. However!! 

If you watch the video from about the two minute mark on (where I have the time set to) you'll see what happens when a horse tries to pull back with products like The Clip, the blocker tie ring, etc. (This is yet another version that I've never even heard of, but same principle.) Lead line (you need a long, round, not-super-thick one for most of these products) slides through with mild tension. Horse has nothing to pull against, so they never get that chance to "set back" and try to break the line/halter/tie ring/themselves/you. And it gives them the opportunity to get their brain back in their head. All without them actually breaking loose and reinforcing the habit. Just so you know what we're all talking about here.

https://youtu.be/PUAtyCwoAG0?t=141


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Your best bet is to either get someone to help you with, send him away to get this help or sell him. Tying up with a horse that pulls back or runs people over has more problems then just the tying. 

You're afraid of this horse, you're not ready and you're putting yourself and this horse in a bad position.

Also you do not need to tie a horse up to tack them, yes its ideal however when my TB was iffy about tying we taught him to ground tie and i tacked him up like that.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

My mare pulls back badly. She managed to break a blocker ring and has pulled big fence posts out of the ground, broken hitching rails, broken halters...

So as a last resort I switched to this setup. The collar distributes pressure so she's much less likely to break her neck, she's tied high (above her head height, which isn't easy considering she's 17hh), that tree is of a species that sends down DEEP tap roots and it's so big around I can't get my arms all the way around it.

I think she's had it done before though because she hits the end of the lead and then INSTANTLY comes forward off it. Doesn't even test it. And this is a horse that will pull until she breaks ANYTHING.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> My mare pulls back badly. She managed to break a blocker ring and has pulled big fence posts out of the ground, broken hitching rails, broken halters...


Not knocking, but pointing out to illustrate to Dreamer that a tie ring or such will not just 'work' without *training* - again, to emphasise what C&S said - that a Tie Ring is designed so that you can *teach* them to tie confidently with nothing breaking, minimising risk & cause for panic. But as in your eg, if you use too many wraps/too firm pressure on the Tie Ring too soon, a horse can find themselves 'tied firm' before they're ready, and then the tie ring is as likely to break as any snap or such. And as you've pointed out, horses are strong enough to pull out fence posts etc... and can you imagine what pressure over their sensitive poll & on the cervical spine when they're doing this on a halter??

So... IF for some reason, you need to tie a horse before they're trained to do so confidently, then I agree with blue, that using a wide neck collar rather than a halter, and tying to/with something seriously unbreakable is best, to reduce injury destruction. But I do think that should be as an 'emergency measure' type thing & it's far better to take the time to *teach* the horse to tie up *confidently*.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

^ Hilariously I had it on the softest tension and she still managed to snap the pin :lol: 

She's the type that goes back FASTER when she feels it release. But her pulling back isn't rooted in fear, I don't think... she just decides she doesn't feel like standing there anymore and fights until she's free. No specific triggers and she's terribly inconsistent with what she does once she's broken away. AND... she doesn't test the neck collar. 

My horse is a bit "special" though...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

DreamerR said:


> Sorry but I have to say I have a different opinion of this. He is in a home where he gets fed properly, ridden consistently, and is extremely loved on. I make sure his hooves are taken care of, I get his teeth checked, and he’s happily munching on hay and grazing with a horse he’s bonded with. He also has a 100% guarantee that he will never be sent to a slaughterhouse, or put in a pasture and sit for years.
> 
> He has developed a bad habit. And whatever is needed will be done to help him. Need that be a tie ring, or a trainer.
> 
> I put my heart and resources into making sure that they are healthy and content. I know he has something that needs to be dealt with, and it is being dealt with. I really do not appreciate being told that he is in a bad situation because he is most definitely not.



Spoken like a potential hoarder, everyone of those believes that no one else can provide the care, or understand the animals in question.

I’m sorry, but he IS in a bad situation, if that video captures your usual interactions with him, because you are failing him..yes he may have food, hooves done,all that good stuff, but your handling of him falls way way short. 

What you consistently fail to understand, and you have been told since day one....

A) No one blames you for not knowing stuff, you are woefully short of decent mentors in your life.
B) We are all VERY concerned at this point, for your well being, and for Bee.


On that video you are terrified, and I totally understand that, but you are just making things worse every time you interact with him, there are two possibilities here:

If this horse is scared, and he does not look it, but if he is, he needs a brave handler, a no nonsense person, who would of been out there, got his tack on in a minute, matter of fact, nothing here to be scared of, tack up and go. If he is scared, you are going to make him worse and worse.

If this horse is, as he looks on the video, antsy, he is going to get your measure, and may move from threatening to actually trying to hurt you. On that case he needs someone who is going to be the boss, stop his messing around, someone with the authority and timing, just to say “NO” and never let him escalate.

Without knowing him better don’t know if he is just super sensitive to flies, has ulcers, or is just getting more stressed over this because of your actions and reactions. The longer this goes on the better chance he has of ending up in a bad place, because you won’t be able to do anything with him.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

What happened to the experienced trainer who agreed to help you with Chase?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh wow Blue, she snapped it when just looped thru?? Used them with heaps of horses & never known of that to happen - maybe a faulty product?? So pardon assuming. 

Yeah, known of many 'left brained' pullers... interesting she doesn't even try with the collar...


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

@loosie yup! It was ridiculous. Mine was home made with half a snaffle, but a bit SHOULD be strong enough to do the job set up the way I had it! Was a stainless steel snaffle with a couple of surface rust spots. Nothing structural at all.

I have dropped an old nickel plated Pelham and had it snap in half but it was corroded through to almost nothing within. Only outside sign was a tiny, seemingly shallow crack in the nickel. But this was a stainless steel snaffle.

I honestly think she's had it done before and she knows she can't break it so she's not even going to try!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Ah, another 'mother of invention'. I do actually have one 'Blocker Tie Ring' I bought years ago, but most of mine are home made from old snaffles too. Then I discovered you could get abseiler's figure 8's for around $8 - got a couple of those for in the float too.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

^ I actually was looking at those! I don't have the money to buy a proper blocker. But the tree and collar seem to be working (so far at least)... we will see. I fell off the stump after tying her up and that spooked her, and normally she'll use the slightest excuse to go off, but she hit the end of the lead and then just went "oh. right. okay."


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I didn’t read all of the responses, so likely I will just be mimicking everyone else. I did however scroll through to find the video you said you would put up.

So, as far as tying goes, I won’t tie a horse solid that is know to pull back. Eventually they seem to get over it using a tie ring or just wrapping a rope a few times. The old paint horse we had was known for pulling back, broke someone’s jaw even when he pulled a post out of the ground before we owned him, but with that release I never saw him commit to pulling back. Our Lucy was the same way. I was warned by her seller, and she did pull back throwing herself on the ground one of the first days we had her. 

We got the tie ring and she got over it. Now we tie her solid all of the time and I haven’t seen her try pulling back. There are other old school methods, but this works for us, so why change it?

Now, when I watched the video I thought a lot of that horse’s behavior was your fear showing through. Several times he acted fine when you went to go up to him, but still you spooked. I understand fear truly, but I also think that maybe you need to find a way to fake brave. Just go saddle him. If he pulls back step out of his way. I never saw him kicking at you, although the kicking was there, he wasn’t intending to kick at you. 

I don’t know why he has your number so bad, because I haven’t followed your progress with him. I am sorry that he does. If you need to cheat give him a bucket of grain while you saddle. I admit to cheating with my self-mutilator that way because, although he tied well, he would get to his imaginary stud fights in the beginning. Eventually I had him over that nonsense when people were around (alone I can’t control it), but it was a way to manage the crazy and still get him worked.

I wish you the best. If you need help get some. It might hurt your pride, but it would benefit the both of you in the long run. 

Does he have your number riding him?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

This horse is WAY too much for you. You're terrified of him, and he knows it. Please move him along to a home that can handle him, and get yourself a horse that won't get you killed...

You're afraid of saddling him because he'll run you over-- so aside from his other issues, he has ZERO respect for you. You WILL get hurt with this horse. There is no shame in selling a horse that is not suitable for you. Someone with more experience would be a far better home for him. He's not happy, you're not happy, nobody wins in the situation he's currently in.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Now you know why he was practically gifted to you.....


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

If you don't want to sell him, at LEAST have a professional trainer help you with him. Or send him off for some training. It doesn't hurt. It's becoming too much for you, you're biting off more than you can chew...you have to put your pride aside, and get some help.

Like I said before, I still think he may have ulcers or pain somewhere, by the way he's reacting too.

Your nervous energy won't get any better if you don't get some help. Period. What you are doing now isn't helping him, OR you.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Unless he can be found a good home with a more experienced person then it's extremely naïve to suggest that he isn't better off where he is - the kill pens are full of horses who's owners at some point in time kidded themselves into thinking their horses were going to good homes.


I watched the video and can see why the OP is cautious but in reality he's not doing anything scary at all.
That stamping looks like he's being irritated by flies - he's a thin skinned TB type to start with but some horses are simply less tolerant than others. 
Square peg, round hole - you won't change the way they are in that respect so you have to change the way you handle them.
1.To start with, when you're grooming and tacking up etc, get him indoors where the flies aren't plaguing him and he's less distracted by things around him.
Get some good fly repellant.
2. Stop all the 'faffing' around. If he's annoyed with the flies and an impatient type to boot then why make things worse by taking forever to get him ready to ride?
If I have a horse that's fidgety like that it gets tacked up in the stable, not in the aisle, not outside - not tied up at all.
The bridle goes on first - it gives you more control from the get go
The saddle pad is already attached to the saddle and the girth attached to the *correct* side of the saddle before it goes on the horse. The whole lot goes on in one go and the girth fastened up. 
Horse gets led out and you get on.


Horses that pull back do it for two reason -
1. Because they can - they weren't taught to tie and stand in an open area.
You can tie them to something that isn't going to budge and they'll usually quickly figure out that they can't break away and give in but as soon as they get tied to something that will break under pressure they'll test it out, pull back and be gone.
2. Something bad has happened to them when they were tied up.


If there's any thought that the fidgeting is pain related then have him checked over - if he's doing it in the field, in the stable or seems fractious when ridden then you'd have reason to worry.


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## LoonWatcher (Apr 28, 2019)

PoptartShop said:


> If you don't want to sell him, at LEAST have a professional trainer help you with him. Or send him off for some training.


I agree with the former statement but not so much the latter. 

I have not thoroughly read all the posts in this thread, but I have read most and watched the video. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with Bee himself; the problem is either physical/medical or training. Horses are usually a reflection of how they are handled, as others have said. Even if she sends Bee to a trainer and they get him going good, it doesn't mean he will stay well behaved with her. Repeatedly, she has stated that Bee has "developed a problem" and that "it has gotten worse". That is a huge clue to the way he is being handled; horses develop and have problems for a reason. If it is purely a physical or medical problem (which I don't think it is), then she should realize that and help him - not soley blaming him for "having problems" and being "****y and nervous just to be difficult."


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

@LoonWatcher agreed, he does seem to be irritable, I agree that she should rule out ANY physical issues first. It screams ulcers to me, but who knows. Could be anything. The nervousness from the OP isn't helping the situation.

If she sent him off to a person who is professional, has experience, and can help him w/ some training, it would be extremely beneficial. I don't think he 'can't be helped'. She needs a professional. Period.


The way the OP is handling the behavior isn't helping- it is only making it worse. You can see that in the video. He's feeding off of it.

I still think he should be checked for ulcers...that's just my opinion. I've dealt with them firsthand & I think that's more than just flies irritating him...any update??


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> Unless he can be found a good home with a more experienced person then it's extremely naïve to suggest that he isn't better off where he is


I think _this_ statement is extremely naive & unreasonably presumptive actually. I dont believe anyone has suggested just sending the horse to market jaydee, or just give him to anyone who will take him. But what do you suppose _is _likely to happen to him, if(when) she gets badly hurt by him??


> 1.To start with, when you're grooming and tacking up etc, get him indoors


The reason he is there is because he has serious problems being inside, apparently.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I have to agree in that his behaviour wasn't all that bad - not including his freakout. All freakouts are a little unnerving I think and you'd have to be a dumb person to not take note of them. I hate anthropomorphism but it does help get across some concepts. Imagine he's a child that is upset - he's fidgety, has ADHD, can't stand still, wants to move and sometimes throwing a tantrum when "mummy" doesn't hurry up. Maybe he's being stung by a bee and it hurts but he can't get away and every time he asks "mum! help" she's too scared to help coz she's also afraid of flying insects.

Then to add to it his mummy doesn't know what to do and is totally unable to offer him any respite, empathy or reassurance. 

I think anyone could understand why that kid would be upset. 

Sorry this example is pretty harsh but I hope you get the point. This is why there are specialist people that help parents. Help the parents = help the kids. Technically we're trying to help you but it's hard online for obvious reasons. That horse probably just needs a firm but reassuring hand and you can't give him either much less both, because _you're_ also in need of them. I totally sympathise with you in that you don't want to let him go but if you cannot find a sharer then at LEAST find a competent rider to work him with you. This is what I did for Katie. I didn't get a trainer (for sharing), I didn't send her off. I found her a competent person to just help give her the confidence that I couldn't. That's actually what I'm doing again for the second time since owning her. No shame! It's meant to be enjoyable and you really don't look like you're enjoying yourself


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^wish I could more than just 'like' that Kalraii - well put.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

No, his problems don't look that serious_ to an experienced horse person_. But the OP is young, and has a severe lack of decent adult mentors. She's having continual trouble with this horse, and unfortunately, is afraid of him, doesn't know how to handle him, and doesn't have the support system in place to get good help with the horse. He's only going to get worse, and I don't want to see her badly hurt. Someone with more experience and confidence could find the problem and fix it quickly, more than likely. Someone with more funds could get him scoped and x-rayed and bodyworked and chiropractored and do the expensive treatment in case this is ulcers or a pain issue. She is not that person at this stage in her life. That's not a slam at the OP--- there's nothing wrong with not being an expert yet, and having a budget. But she's a nice young gal whose heart is in the right place and who loves horses and it hurts to see someone with so much potential continually overhorsed, lacking a mentor with a clue, and afraid of her horse. I don't want to see her hurt or worse because of a horse that was dropped in her lap, likely for this reason. 

Horses should be fun. You are not enjoying this horse.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

@SilverMaple I agree 100% and the reason I wanted to point out that his behaviour wasn't that bad is because I worry that OP herself, her friends and family are also seeing the above behaviour tied up (really not that bad to more experience people, yes) but through their inexperience and worry for her safety are feeding her *only fear*. For all we know every one treats this horse like he's a bomb. OP isn't seeing his behaviour for what it is because she is so afraid of the unknown. To us he's restless on the spot and trying to communicate. To OP and her circle they might be instead be thinking "he's gonna explode careful!". So instead of OP asking "hm, I wonder what he's trying to tell me" she is instead treating him like an undetonated bomb. I think the way we learn to approach an issue plays a huge part in how we can handle the unknown. 

What I mean by that OP is that you are overthinking things. Yes, be alert but try to learn to consciously evaluate the situation. Right now you have two things in mind:

1. I want to do X
2. I'm afraid of him exploding and us both getting hurt

-

*INSTEAD think this:*

1. what behaviour right now is scaring me? _(he is restless and kicking out - maybe at flies or maybe out of annoyance or anxiety I'm not sure)_

2. why is he acting like this? _(various anxieties that I've not yet addressed and potentially physical discomfort from the saddle or ulcers. To add: I'm scared, he can smell, hear and see my fear but doesn't realise I'm scared of him so he might be thinking that he needs to soon run away from a monster but can't, because I* have tied him up)_

3. what would you like to be able to do? _(you might say "tack up and ride" but your answer should be: approach and handle this horse without fear and with his trust in me)_

4. what things do I do that make him more anxious/dangerous? _(I approach him like he's a ticking bomb. My movements are shaky, hesitant and he can smell, see and hear my fear. I should maybe not speak when I am like this. I should maybe take a step back and take a few minutes to compose myself and make a plan about my next course of action instead of flailing around.)_

5. what things can you do to reassure both of us? (_I can have a plan in place for how I will address each of his issues beginning with the moment I handle him. I should remember to breath, stand straight and move with confidence even if at first its pretend. In fact, I might need to pretend at first that his behaviour doesn't bother me. I want to acknowledge it but not be fearful of it, because I have a plan and have the situation under control. I am alert for both our safety, ready to move if needed, but there is a difference between being alert and behaving like I'm about to set off a nuclear weapon_)

 examples:
a. how is he to catch and halter? If he refuses to be caught what is your plan?

b. how is he to lead? If he's horrendous at leading what is your plan?

c. how many minutes can he be tied up for (and not fussed with). If he can tie "alone", supervised ofc, for 1minute that's great. The next day add 30 seconds. Then add 30 seconds 
each day. If suddenly he goes back to being able to tie only 15 seconds go back to that point and start again. It is important that you release him before he attempts to pull back so 
he doesn't think "when I pull back she releases me" instead it should be "when I stand nicely she will release me and I get a treat/a walk around". NOTE: this is just one example of 
how to deal with a problem. It is up to YOU to select a method and stick to it!

d. when he DOES pull back what is your plan? (well if he's tied somewhere safe I will do X. If he's tied to an unsecured object I will do Z. If I'm using a blocker ring I will do Y.)

e. how is he to groom untied with a long lead rope? (is he still impatient? Does he kick or threaten to bite when you rub around his belly? What is your plan?)

f. how is he to pick feet? if he snatches his feet or kicks out, what is your plan?

g. how is he to tack up untied? does he move away or kick out? what is your plan?

h. how is he at feed time? any food aggression? what is your plan?

i. can you hand his head and ears? (I will begin holding his head for just 5 seconds and then releasing, not allowing him to snatch his head away. I will increase the amount I hold his 
head by 3 seconds and/or until he relaxes enough that he doesn't snatch his head away. I will also give him a treat whenever he keeps his head still for me)

j. how is he stalled? begin with him just walking around stalls, then walking nicely in and out. then begin leaving him in it for a minute, then a few minutes etc. Every time he 
regresses that's fine, just go back to whatever point he's happy with and repeat.

k. if he rears what is your plan? eg. stand to his side. Notice, if yuo pull down does it make him rear higher? If yes, then maybe slacken your rope to avoid sending him further up. When 
he comes back down direct his energy into a lunging circle (direct, not amplify) etc again, make a plan

l. if he is tied up and kicking/bucking around? stay away from his back end, be ready to untie if needed but otherwise just wait it out


So as you can see you need to consciously put a plan in place for everything so your behaviours and responses are consistent. Right now it's obvious you don't know what you're doing. You aint gonna sell, so you need to invest in training yourself and putting time into making plans. Anyone can feel free to add or change the above etc it was just a quick write up of how I, at least, approach things when faced with an unknown situation.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Nice post @Kalraii. 

I watched the video.

My impression is...what a sweet and sensitive horse! Something is bothering him very much, seems like flies he is kicking at. Although he is tied up so short that many horses would feel claustrophobic and trapped, he is still doing his best to stay within the range of his tie.

His timid owner approaches and whenever she barely touches him, he responds in some way. He moves away often to a light touch. He's really trying to pay attention to her and give. He also is far more careful of her than most horses I know. When she attaches the girth on the near side, he stops doing the sweeping kicks with his near hind hoof and tones it down to just stomping. He transfers the big kicks to the far side hoof, away from his owner. When she goes to the other side to do up the girth, he stands still for a period of time. 

I have to say he's rather angelic for a TB, who often let their excitement, impatience or irritation burst out. Many would have had to be reminded that you don't kick ME, no matter how irritated you are with the flies, or that you need to stand at least for a moment while I'm doing up the girth. This horse seems to not need those reminders. He's doing all of this without guidance from the owner, where many horses would be like, "Oh, you're not going to get after me for kicking at the flies near you? Fine, I'll let 'er rip!" 

For this horse, I'd give him much more leeway, much more space, because he has a good heart. If he acts like this, the owner should feel ashamed for not meeting his needs. After noticing his distress, she should have fly sprayed him, hosed him or scrubbed his belly right away so he could get more comfortable. Or at least walked him to an area where the flies were better so he could calm down. 

If you tried to hop on many horses that were this distressed over flies, you could expect them to buck or run off. If he didn't do that, it is even more proof of how angelic he is. If a horse was going to pull back, that video would have been the time. 

Be kind to this horse, he's good. Don't tie him up short, just loop your lead around something, use your fly spray liberally and give him a nice net full of hay to eat while you tack him up. He deserves to have some nice relaxing times while you're getting ready to ride, why not feed him (it prevents ulcers) and brush him while he's relaxing, and scratch him in his good spots so he's feeling mellow before having to work for you?

I don't understand why people want to handle a horse and have everything from the time they first halter the horse be work, work, and negativity. Why not start out with a treat, then feed the horse while he's being tacked, and give him nice grooming. Stretch him out so he feels limber. Warm up slowly. Finally, do the work, and then right after do the same: feed, scratches, treats, happy times.

I don't think Bee is crazy. Let's take a video of one of us standing handcuffed to a post on top of an anthill with the little bugs running all over our legs. Now stand still and don't bump into the person who is trying to put a belt on for you, and why are you kicking your legs, do you need to see a psychiatrist? Good grief, what is wrong with you.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

My gelding is known to pull back and break what he's tied to. He's taken down entire stall front broke post off at ground level. He's hard core pull back till what hes tied to breaks. 

He no longer pulls back while tied I use the clip have it adjusted so rope pulls through easley. When saddling up I don't tie him I simple loop rope over rail. I never leave him unattended while tied. 

I make sure he's fly sprayed well so bugs aren't annoying him. He tends to get dancing around while tied and that leads to pulling back. I give him a hay bag full of hay has made a huge difference helps keep him calm. 

If I was nervous jumpy he'd for sure be nervous not stand still and probably would pull back. I am very matter of fact with him. I get him groomed and then saddled in a very short time frame. I use treats to reward good behavior. 

Ops horse is feeding off her being nervous also looks like he got bugs bothering him. He might be one who is very sensitive to being bit by bugs. 

I really feel bad for op she desperately needs someone to help her ,and teach her how to deal with this horse. I wish I lived closer to her I'd be more then willing to help her. Don't think horse is crazy or bad just needs a confident person a knowledgeable horse savvy person. 

I think if op had someone there to show her how to handle this horse... it would make a world of difference. I don't think horse is a bad horse he's nervous because his owner is a nervous wreck. Like I said wish I could help op I really do.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

loosie said:


> I think _this_ statement is extremely naive & unreasonably presumptive actually. I dont believe anyone has suggested just sending the horse to market jaydee, or just give him to anyone who will take him. But what do you suppose _is _likely to happen to him, if(when) she gets badly hurt by him??
> 
> .



Naïve is thinking that this horse would have much chance of being sold at all - very few people will take on a horse that's got issues if they have to pay for it.
He was given away because he had problems and if he's given away again then there's a very high chance that the next person would also give him away and so it would go on until he ends up in a kill pen or being euthanized on site.
Being euthanized on site would be a kinder option for him now and a safer one for any inexperienced person that he would end up with 
Unfortunately its the inexperienced people that almost always take on these freebie problem horses.


It was my understanding that it was the cross ties in the barn that he didn't like?
Horses that get agitated when tied like this one are better off not tied when you're doing anything with them


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

OK... so if no one else noticed I have that the OP is no longer responding at this point...
Whether reading this at this point is also a unknown...


So, I am hoping you are still reading, just being quiet and I not blame you.
Bottom line is you know you have a problem...
You had a problem with Chase when he first came to you and you had a trainer, a real trainer help you through that...
I think from what you've written the horses are kept at the same stable...
So, that trainer has probably met this horse too...
Ask him/her their opinion and what they would try to help the situation.
I'm wondering if you tied Bee with a longer lead if he would possibly be better...
There is a happy medium of not to short nor to long...but the just right spot so he can wiggle some if he needs but he is not so restricted he fights...
Not every horse stands like a rock tied, they fidget and move.
If you were to hold him does he stand like a rock then or fidget and move...something to think about.


I'm not going to continue to say "sell" cause you won't and I do understand your feelings on it.
I will say, please...please seek out someone to help you and help Bee to get past this so you are more confident in handling this horse and safer while in his company.
We care, that is why so many are harping at you to "sell"...
No one wants to see you hurt and this horse is a large horse and very powerful so his little oops against your small you is going to do some bruising and ouches...
Just be very careful...but when you are with Bee... touch him with firmness but gently...not like a fly cause he has a long tail and will swat you good with it.
Rub his neck, talk to him like he is one of your best buds at school...relax.
Truly, he is not trying to hurt you cause if that was his intention..._you *would* be in the hospital already.:|
_
_Now, enjoy the last few days of school fast approaching and go ride those horses!!_
:runninghorse2:_.._


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## LoonWatcher (Apr 28, 2019)

horselovinguy said:


> I'm wondering if you tied Bee with a longer lead if he would possibly be better...
> There is a happy medium of not to short nor to long...but the just right spot so he can wiggle some if he needs but he is not so restricted he fights...


This is good start. Although this may not be the one and only factor, it can be a large contributer.

When she first started the discussion and in the subsequent posts, she repeatedly stated he pulled back in the coss ties. Although it might have been coincedence (I don't think so), in the video he was relatively single point. While he was fidgeting, he wasn't all crazy and pulling back.

I can go on a book-long rant about my dislike for cross ties and why they not a good idea, especially for a horse who does not tie well single point. To keep it simple and in emphasis to horselovinguy: 

Most horses don't like cross ties or being tied short; I think Bee is one of those horses. You have to do accordingly to what your horse needs, as the others have said. Just because it is commonly taught or simply an option there, it doesn't mean you have to use it. Although my horse doesn't pull back, I know she doesn't like them (cross ties), and I respect that, so I don't use them.

ETA:

The first time Bee pulled back was in cross ties. You then put him in cross ties again and again and were suprised he pulled and, at times, got free from pulling. Don't do the same thing over and over again an expect a different result just because "he used to tied well before." 

Again, cross ties are probably not the one and only problem. However, cross tying is still a form a trying. If they develop bad habits in cross ties, which he has, they (the bad habits) could transfer over to single point, which it sounds like.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

The fact that people are suggesting euthanizing this horse is ridiculous. :icon_rolleyes: 
Should I have euthanized my horse when she was acting 'bratty' for months, kicking out, threatening to bite, etc. when she actually had ulcers? No. I figured out the cause, and the root of the problem. I didn't say oh, she's just a bad horse, let me euthanize her. Like what????????

Bee doesn't need to be euthanized, that's just ridiculous honestly. For some that's the easy way out, oh just put the horse down. No, the OP needs a professional to help her, as she is making the situation worse. She's not getting a professional right now, so he's not being helped. He needs help.
Horses like Bee can be helped, I believe. But of course the behavior is escalating, because the OP isn't comfortable/is nervous around him. 

Sorry, just had to put my two cents in, because seeing someone post euthanize him just made me go wow! :O His issues are NOT that serious where euthanizing is required. Sheesh.

Anyway, OP isn't even responding at this point (yet, anyway). Wish you were CLOSER to my area, I have a darn good trainer, professional horsewoman with yeaaaaaaaaars of experience who could help this horse.  I'm sure there has to be someone in your area that can help you. You need help as well, not just Bee. You need to realize you took on a horse that you cannot handle. We've given you advice, take it or leave it - but do what is best for the horse. Get a professional involved. Nothing wrong with asking for help.

It doesn't make you a bad person, nor does it make the horse a bad horse. I'm sure he's been tossed around because people don't want to deal with him, or just call him a 'bad horse'...when really, he just doesn't know any better. He doesn't appear to be aggressive, it just looks like he's VERY uncomfortable, and not confident, and you aren't confident either = not a good mix. 

I'd still get him checked for ulcers, and rule out ANY other pain...horses don't act that way for no absolute reason. See if you could try ground-tying him. For some horses, it works better.  Why not just start back at the basics too...hanging out with him, bonding, etc.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I quite like the horse. He's a good sort, but he's very anxious and irritated by something. I don't think he's a bad horse at all, but he's certainly not a good fit for this young lady. Now we have a nervous, possibly painful horse and someone tiptoeing around him, so he now thinks there's REALLY something to worry about because 'my person is nervous, too!' So he dances around and his anxiety builds and builds until, as Warwick Schiller puts it, 'his worry cup overflows'. Does it mean that whatever the trigger was was the worst thing? No. But that was the final straw that he couldn't deal with anymore, so all of those other worries and irritations were the cause and just built up and built up. That's what this horse is doing. He's telling you he's unhappy. It's your job to figure out why and address it. Keep doing what you're doing and he's going to reach his overflow point and explode again. 

If this type of horse came to me, this is what I would do:
- complete physical exam and chiropractor visit to rule out pain. Pulling back can cause a lot of issues with the spine, poll, and neck. It's possible a lot of his issues are due to the apprehension of pain again. 
- lots of time in turnout with being caught only for good things--- feed, grooming, treats, scritches, etc. for a week or two
- tying with a blocker tie ring or similar to gauge how he is with tying. Is his anxiousness and pulling back due to a tying issue, or does it just manifest during tying because he can't express himself any other way? Does this horse really know how to tie? Is he pulling back from fear or just plain orneriness? How I deal with it is contingent upon the cause. Lots of horses never really learned how to give to pressure. Fix that, and suddenly the 'horse that cannot be tied' is cured. 
- lots of time just working around him. Tie him and muck his stall or pen. Drag the water tub around. Crinkle water bottles. Hang a tarp from one corner of his fence so it blows in the wind. Mow alongside his fence. Have the neighbor kids come ride bikes around his pen. Get him in a round pen and see how he responds to pressure and the release of that pressure. Is he respectful and trying, or is he anxious and afraid? Does he worry more about what I'm doing or what the horse in the next field is doing? Can I touch him all over and pick up his feet without him moving away or becoming worried? If not, that gets fixed before we go any farther. How is he when you approach with a halter and lead? Does he lower his head for the halter, or does he tense up and raise his head? Can I cue him to lower his head and flex softly left and right with the lead rope? How is he with having the rope tossed around his legs, barrel, neck, and belly? How does he react when tied next to a broke, calm horse when that horse is tacked up? How does he pony off that horse? Is he worried about a saddle pad or blanket tossed over his back? If so, get him over that before a saddle. Start from the bottom like he's an unhandled colt. When you find the holes, fix them. If he's good with something, then move on. Is he standing still because he's really ok with whatever is presented, or is he shut down or afraid to move, and really not ok with it at all?

I think this is a sensitive, kind, worried horse with a LOT of holes in how he's been handled and trained. I think he's fixable, but not by someone who is afraid of him. I have a horse like this; it's been nearly two years getting his confidence built up and fixing the damage caused by previous 'trainers' and getting him trusting and comfortable again, physically and mentally. It can be done, but it's a long process, and sometimes you take big leaps forward only to find yourself even farther back the next time. It's not for the faint of heart or the novice. I don't think the OP's horse is on the 'euthanization option' yet, but his current situation is not working for him or his owner. It's nobody's fault, it's just a poor combination in terms of temperament, experience, skill, and personality. This horse will thrive with the right person. You just have to either get a mentor and become that person, or find that person for him.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the kind of skills that @SilverMaple has just described are what he needs from a hired trainer. Not how to jump, or take the correct lead, or do a dressage test.


I dont' see a horse that anxious about tying, but the whole kicking out of anxiety indicates issues greater than just tying, and I personally would never mount up a horse that behaved like that.


Lastly, saying that you need to just hurry up and get the whole tacking up thing over with is just a bandaid. If your horse can't stand and tolerate being tacked up at a leisurely pace, then you have no business putting your butt in that saddle. Rushing is NOT the answer.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Lastly, saying that you need to just hurry up and get the whole tacking up thing over with is just a bandaid. If your horse can't stand and tolerate being tacked up at a leisurely pace, then you have no business putting your butt in that saddle. Rushing is NOT the answer.



I disagree, we are not talking bandaid at all, but doing what is right by the horse. That horse, right now, cannot deal with someone faffing around, taking for ever, and being scared. RIGHT NOW he needs a matter of fact approach, which would include having everything to hand, so you just tack him up and go. When he can do that, then you build in leisurely time, but you don’t start there.

Lol, if you had seen Chuck sulking in the barn today, you might of decided not to ride him, but he rode perfectly well.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

DreamerR said:


> The reason the girth saddle was on and the girth was attached for so long without me finishing it was because the way he was standing was sideways, and if he went off again then he would've straightened out and ran me over. Which is what I was explaining to my dad in the video, you can hear me say, "I don't want to do this because he could run me over.... But I have to do it anyways." Or something along those lines.


How is your dad with horses? Could you tack up Bee more away from the barn with your dad holding him, so he could maybe give (a little) if Bee tries to pull away? Or is there someone else who could help like that? If Bee were OK with that, then you could slowly move him back toward the barn and then eventually get to where you could loop the rope around that pole with the same person holding it.

I also agree that it would be nice, if possible, for you to have all of your tack right there so you could get him tacked up before he has a chance to get (too) nervous.

And, yes, there were a couple of times where he relaxed. If you had someone there holding him, that person could reward him by letting out the rope a little or even, as suggested, letting him graze a bit. Or give him a cookie. Even you, if you're right there and he's not double haltered, could do that. You'd have to be quick for him to associate the reward with the behavior though.

My Teddy was anxious about everything when I got him, and what I did was just ask him to do, like 30 seconds of the thing he didn't like, then, reward and end session. Next time, one minute, ditto. Then two minutes. That's what I would try here also. Also if Bee likes food, maybe you could put a hay net over there so he could eat? I have read that chewing is calming for horses, and certainly a horse that isn't TOO stressed out (by the end of the video he IS too stressed out) would probably find that it makes the whole experience more enjoyable.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> Naïve is thinking that this horse would have much chance of being sold at all - very few people will take on a horse that's got issues if they have to pay for it.
> He was given away because he had problems and if he's given away again then there's a very high chance that the next person would also give him away


Well for a start, almost all horses have 'issues' of some kind & people don't always have the $$$ for a perfect, perfectly trained horse, so yes, people DO spend money on them.

And maybe he has 'issues' aside from just an inexperienced, unconfident owner - who knows. I certainly don't see 'problem horse' in the vid posted, as explained well by Kalraii & Gotta. Maybe his only 'issues' are due to his situation though. Her just keeping on keeping on, doing the wrong things, will likely cause him to have bigger 'issues' though.

So, I dont know what would cause you to say the horse couldn't be _sold_, as in for good money - perhaps there was something in other posts I have missed. But that is beside the point anyway & would not be my focus anyway, but to find him a _good, appropriate_ home - and I don't understand your attitude that once given away he would continue to be passed from person to person.... that doesn't seem a very rational conclusion to draw without any reason.

*IF* this horse had serious, dangerous 'issues' however, that he is dangerous for everyone, not just an inexperienced timid girl, *then* I'd consider that putting him down may be the best option rather than trying to find a good home.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

@loosie This is a nice looking horse that's supposed to have a solid history of 'doing stuff' and based on the one video we've seen of him jumping, he moves well and looks like he'd have potential in hunters and yet he was given away.
People don't give horses like that away if there isn't some other underlying problem that will put people off 'big style'
Look at the prices they're asking for hunters/jumpers on this site
https://www.bigeq.com/horses/
But if you go to a low level auction you'll see dozens of lovely looking horses for sale and a huge number of them will end up in Mexico for slaughter because they've got issues, like this horse, that put people off. 


I don't think he looks scary in that video but I'm someone with years of experience of young horses and 'dealer horses' who long ago figured out that its usually a lot safer and faster in the long run to try to meet horses half way. If the horse was a top level performer then a good experienced person might take him and compromise or sort out his issues but he isn't. He'd most likely just end up with another novice who wants to stuff a square peg into a round hole


I've merged the OP's first thread about tying to this one and having read through it, it seems clear that the tying up isn't the real problem. I would imagine that that the horse tied up fine before he got shoved too far out of his comfort zone, he got stressed, had a panic attack and ran back and broke free.
Now he knows he can break free so he's doing it because he can.
For whatever reason the horse has gotten overly attached to another horse and gets stressed out and panics when he thinks he's being taken away from it. 
Moving barns has probably made things worse.
Jazzy was like this when we first bought her. The seller had told us that she was 100% OK on her own. Her first day here she had a massive meltdown as soon as the other horses were being turned out for the day but because she was in a stable that she couldn't jump out of she couldn't go anywhere. 
If she'd been tied up she'd have broken free and learnt that 'she could'
Instead of forcing her to deal with it we turned her out first with another horse every day while she settled in with us and her new home
Within a week she was back to her normal self. She couldn't care less if she's on her own or where the others are. She was just insecure.


In that video - the horse is clearly unhappy about something. I don't know if the flies aren't helping but if he's just stressed about being away from sight of the other horse then forcing him to deal with it won't improve his mental attitude or help him to learn to cope and feel safe. All that's going to happen is that he's going to create more and more of a bad association with being tied up.


Tinyliny - I'm not suggesting to rush things, in fact what I'm suggesting is the very opposite.
This horse is well used to being tacked up, what he isn't used too is being taken away from the other horses to be tacked up and the longer he's forced to stand there the more anxious he's getting.
The equipment should all be right there to hand - she put the saddle on and then went off to get the girth. I'm just amazed it didn't get thrown on to the ground and wrecked. 
The horse isn't kicking out at the handler, he doesn't want to be dangerous or difficult, he's silently calling out for some understanding.


As Cherie once said - you won't make a horse less reactive by making it more reactive.
I didn't always agree with her but she was totally right about that.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> @*loosie* This is a nice looking horse that's supposed to have a solid history of 'doing stuff' and based on the one video we've seen of him jumping, he moves well and looks like he'd have potential in hunters and yet he was given away.
> People don't give horses like that away if there isn't some other underlying problem that will put people off 'big style'


So @*jaydee* it seems to me you're basing your assumption about the doggers on an assumption about not being able to sell the horse because there is something wrong with him that we have no idea about, because you assume no one would give away a horse you guess is 'like that'. 

That seems pretty sturdy reasoning, to put the fear of death into the poor girl who is overhorsed, in danger because of this(think we all agree not horses fault), but couldn't possibly consider rehoming him because it's 'naive' of anyone to believe he wont end up anywhere but the doggers in Mexico.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

Sorry this response has taken so long. I’ve had testing all week and I’ve been in a schedule of getting home and just falling asleep. 

I have more studying to do so I’m going to try and remember all the questions y’all have asked. 

First off he was not separated from Chase, Chase was literally 10 feet away from him. He is easy to catch and puts his head down when I approach with the halter. He is not going to be put down.... why? Because that’s ridiculous. He was only on the crossties one time and after that we switched him to tying. Undersaddle he is a DREAM to ride, unless he’s unridden for >2 weeks. He is in fact a hunter and has been shown all around the state. 

I also believe something in the barn must be scaring him because today I gave him a bath with medicated shampoo because he had rainrot. We were in their pasture and I just draped the lead rope over the fence and he was fine. Stood completely still and Chase even went out of site and he was still fine. 

Also, yes, he is sweet. Very sweet. He has a pure heart of gold.

Attached is a picture of him. A month before we got him. At a show he had never been to before. Tied up while a 8 year old girl who just got grand champion showing him 2 foot, washed him off. He is the sweetest horse around.


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## LoonWatcher (Apr 28, 2019)

DreamerR said:


> I also believe something in the barn must be scaring him...


What made you think of this?

If that is true, then you need identify what is scaring him and help him. Do not tie him in the barn until he ties well elsewhere and is over his fear.



DreamerR said:


> We were in their pasture and I just draped the lead rope over the fence and he was fine. Stood completely still and Chase even went out of site and he was still fine.


It's good that you didn't tie him to then fence. Fence boards pop right off and fence stakes can be pulled out or broken.

While it is ideal for a horse to know how to be tied, some just can't; I believe @SilverMaple had a horse like that. Although he may not always stand like a statue, I don't believe he is one of those horses. However, based on your posts, I don't think you alone should be tying him (even though I think he can be taught), especially if he doesn't need to be tied. It is better for a horse to stand with the lead draped than it is to constantly pull, fight like mad, and learn bad lessons.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I've had pullers over the years, all but one were rehabbed--- I use a combination of teaching the horse to give to pressure (because even some high-end athletes never learned this properly) and hobbles where the horse can move if he wants---just not real fast, then working with a blocker ring-- first thing, though, was to make sure the horse wasn't sore-- a lot of pullers hurt, then pull, then it hurts worse, and you set up a cycle. Pullers get a chiro visit first thing, and about half of them have it solved from that alone. There's a pressure point on the poll that sends a shooting pain to the horse when he moves his head a certain way and the halter tightens up there-- so a horse that has pulled back often has that out of place. Even if the horse spooked and pulled back, I have that checked. 

The only horse I wasn't ever able to eventually tie had been through a myriad of bad trainers, but the stickler was that he'd been hot-shotted over and over for HOURS while standing on wet ground as a form of 'desensitization' ... he'd get shocked then pull until he fell, then they'd shock him again; get him up and repeat. That one I never did teach not to pull back, but I don't blame him. He would stand all day hobbled or with the rope draped over a fence or through the trailer ring, but tie it and he'd start shaking and sweating and his eyes would glaze over and he'd fight until he passed out--- so I didn't worry too much about it. It wasn't a big deal and he was otherwise a wonderful horse.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I'm curious. If your dad or someone else stands and holds the rope with some slack in it rather than tying, does his behavior change much? Can you leave the leadrope on the ground or draped (not wrapped) over your left arm and saddle him?

If a horse is iffy about being saddled, groomed, flysprayed, hosed, clipped, whatever-- I don't tie them for that. I let them move if they want to, but we can go around in circles all day and when their feet stop moving, I remove whatever they're upset about, step back, let them relax, and try again. It's amazing how soon even a snorty colt will figure out to stand still and relaxed. Only once they are completely relaxed about whatever I'm doing when untied (eyes half closed, ears at half mast, leg cocked) will I even consider tying for that, especially with a horse who has a history of pulling.


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## DreamerR (Dec 17, 2017)

SilverMaple said:


> I'm curious. If your dad or someone else stands and holds the rope with some slack in it rather than tying, does his behavior change much? Can you leave the leadrope on the ground or draped (not wrapped) over your left arm and saddle him?
> 
> If a horse is iffy about being saddled, groomed, flysprayed, hosed, clipped, whatever-- I don't tie them for that. I let them move if they want to, but we can go around in circles all day and when their feet stop moving, I remove whatever they're upset about, step back, let them relax, and try again. It's amazing how soon even a snorty colt will figure out to stand still and relaxed. Only once they are completely relaxed about whatever I'm doing when untied (eyes half closed, ears at half mast, leg cocked) will I even consider tying for that, especially with a horse who has a history of pulling.


I tried holding the lead rope while someone else tacked him up and he pulled back and pulled the rope out of my hands. In a rather violent ordeal. However if I just take off the lead rope and fill up a bowl of feed he will stand in the same spot I tie him, and be completely relaxed while I tack up.


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## nohiogal (May 9, 2019)

Maybe this has been suggested and I missed it but have you tried a short round pen session on lunge session before you tie/groom/tacking up?

I had the same situation with my mare. She pawed the ground and did some back leg kicks, though not to the same energy degree as yourhorse.

I found a quick round pen session or lunging before tying/groomingand tacking her up helped a great deal. I would switch them up so she never knew which to expect. 

One round pen, next time lunge, next time lunge, next timeround pen and then lunge. Rinse and repeat! 

This helped her get rid of some of her nervous energy andshe was able to stand calmly for the most part. I have been doing this for several months and it is paying off. Now I can groom/tack her without the sessionsbut I still do it about every two or three rides just for good measure. 

Also, Have you triedjust grooming without riding? Some horses do anticipate and if the ride is what they want then they will dance and carryon to get to what they want. Changing the routine can help. Lunge, groom andwalk around one day, no riding. Roundpen, groom/tack the next time. Roundpen, groom and walking or do a lungesession with no ride. Again, rinse andrepeat, changing up each time. 

Just the change may distract him enough that he is not surewhat is going to happen so he learns to be patient and find out.

Also, as many others have suggested, tie to a patience poleor high, large tree limb. I am sure if you search the internet/you tube you will find many videos on how to do thissafely. If you are not sure, you can link the video to a post here and ask ifthis looks correct before actually doing it.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

You may need to have him tested for EPM.....that causes that over reactive state, because the Protozoa are causing the pain in the spinal cord, and interrupting the nerves. (Way over simplified explanation...)


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

So just wanna summarise please correct me if I'm wrong @DreamerR:

- he used to stand tied nicely with an old owner/rider, an 8yo girl while bathing him etc

- he will stand and allow you to tack him up as long as he is _untied_ and preoccupied (problem with using incentives its harder to know if the food outweighs whatever is troubling him or if he's just taught you to feed him when tacked up among other things)

- if he is tied or held by a person he will refuse to be tacked up and react violently

- he especially hates being tied near/in the barn both unsaddled and when being tacked up, reacting violently

- and just to be 100% sure, there are no issues in mounting him or riding him that you are aware of? Be it any behaviour.. napping, refusing etc


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

loosie said:


> So @*jaydee* it seems to me you're basing your assumption about the doggers on an assumption about not being able to sell the horse because there is something wrong with him that we have no idea about, because you assume no one would give away a horse you guess is 'like that'.
> 
> That seems pretty sturdy reasoning, to put the fear of death into the poor girl who is overhorsed, in danger because of this(think we all agree not horses fault), but couldn't possibly consider rehoming him because it's 'naive' of anyone to believe he wont end up anywhere but the doggers in Mexico.


 I honestly don't really know what you're trying to say.
All we know about this horse is what slightly muddled information we're being given - the horse appears to be erratic and inconsistent in his behavior which is the worst type of behavior to deal with.
She now wonders if he does it when he's frightened of things but this is a horse that's been shown all over their State at a decent level so random stuff around the barn shouldn't cause these meltdowns. 
If I had been selling this horse when I was doing that as a business he's one that I would have bet good money on bouncing back to me after a few weeks.
I will repeat - a horse that's been showing and winning regularly does not get given away for no good reason.


I am not putting the fear of death into this OP and I have not said that she shouldn't sell him - I have said that she would find him very difficult to sell unless she lies about his problem or doesn't mention it.
She could try and give him away and be totally up front about what he does.
I actually think she should let him go - he should be returned to the original owner IMO. As things stand at present she isn't safe around him and he isn't safe around here. A nervous horse and a nervous handler is a bad combination.


My 'naive' comment has nothing at all to do with her not letting this horse go. Its about being realistic in what's going to happen to him afterwards. 
I'm sorry, but I have no time at all for people who think that their problem horse is going to always end up in a wonderful loving home when they sell it. You can't even guarantee that with a horse that's relatively problem free.
I would rather be honest and say that than tell this teenager that their horse will go to a great home if they let it go only to have her come back here in a few months time to say that it was sold into a kill pen and how heartbroken she is and how misled she was.


At this point I think I'd be looking into @*greentree* 's suggestion to test for EPM but would also look into other neurological causes including Lyme Disease and brain tumors


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

DreamerR said:


> I tried holding the lead rope while someone else tacked him up and he pulled back and pulled the rope out of my hands. In a rather violent ordeal.


So, if he does try to pull back while he's being held... just go with him. Maintain a steady pressure on the line, but follow him backwards. He can back up all day and not get anywhere. Eventually he'll stop, and when he does, IMMEDIATELY give him slack in the line. Then keep doing what you were doing. Repeat as necessary.

This does a few things.

a) He doesn't feel trapped
b) Pressure is maintained on the lead, so he doesn't actually get a release
c) He gets rewarded with a release on the line when he stops moving his feet


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> I am not putting the fear of death into this OP and I have not said that she shouldn't sell him - I have said that she would find him very difficult to sell unless she lies about his problem or doesn't mention it.


I am just trying to understand what _you_ meant, as i know you to be a very reasonable person, but what you _said_ sounded very irrational _and also rude_ towards anyone that suggested rehoming. 

With so little - & muddled - info from the OP on this horse especially, IMO it is just not at all reasonable to assume the horse is unsaleable and would end up at the knackers. Or tell people they're naive to suggest it. That is about the size of it.

In saying something like 'anyone who would sell the horse was 'naive' if they didn't think the horse wouldn't end up in Mexico'! _THAT_ *is *effectively telling her don't sell & expect the horse to be killed if you do. THAT is what I meant was 'the fear of death'.


> My 'naive' comment has nothing at all to do with her not letting this horse go. Its about being realistic in what's going to happen to him afterwards.


Your naive comment _sounded like _it was EXACTLY to do with letting the horse go. And while yes, I agree it _would_ be very naive to believe your kill pen scenario _never_ happened or _couldn't_, it is just irrational & unrealistic to say 'it _will_ happen'. 

You can be careful about who you choose to give animals to for eg, not just palm them off on anyone. I had my rescue boy up for about 8 months before I found a _good_, appropriate home for him. And for _his_ sake I wouldnt have lied about him either.



> I actually think she should let him go - he should be returned to the original owner IMO.


Despite that you believe he will end up deaded?? 



> would also look into other neurological causes including Lyme Disease and brain tumors


I'm sorry, you've lost me there. Am I missing something big that would cause you to think that?? And of course, IF the horse had a major neurological issue or such, i can understand you thinking he may be better off deaded...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't know how to make my point any clearer.
The OP's reply to posts suggesting that she sell the horse was that she won't because she knows that he's safe and cared for where he is - implying that she doesn't know for certain if he'd be safe and cared for if she sold him.
I can't argue with that because statistically, based on whatever numbers you believe, she's correct. 
There are plenty of young healthy horses without problems that are shipped off the Mexico or Canada for slaughter so that doesn't give a lot of hope for a young healthy looking horse that's got a problem 
It would be naïve of me to believe that this horse has got a strong chance of going to a great forever home because I know from experience that he hasn't.
It would be wrong of me to lie to her and try to convince her otherwise.


If others actually do believe that this horse has more than a 30% chance of ending up in that great forever home then they can believe that all they want but it doesn't make it a fact.
Maybe things are different in Australia, its certainly a lot harder to get horses slaughtered in the UK due to passporting rules and restrictions but in the US those restrictions don't exist. 


I'm not against her selling the horse as long as its sold in total honesty but I'm not going to sugar coat anything and tell her that the horse will get a good home because chances are it won't stay wherever she sells it if its problems don't go away.
There are two reasons why I say he should be sent back:
a. If the previous owner knew he had issues when they let him go then they passed him on dishonestly to an inexperienced teenager so they should have him back and take responsibility for the horse. If he really isn't 'fixable' then he's better of euthanized.
b. If he was genuinely OK with them then he would be better off back there until he can be found a more suitable home.
She actually seems to be mature enough to know that the odds of him going to a great forever home are slim, which is why she's reluctant to let him go. She's the one that has to deal with it if he doesn't, not me, not members of this forum.
She's also mature enough to know that she isn't safe around him when he's having these 'reactions'.


QUOTE:
_would also look into other neurological causes including Lyme Disease and brain tumors_
_I'm sorry, you've lost me there. Am I missing something big that would cause you to think that?? And of course, IF the horse had a major neurological issue or such, i can understand you thinking he may be better off deaded…_ END QUOTE


If a horse starts to behave in a way that's out of character then health related reasons should always be the first to be explored.
According to the OP this horse was not a problem in his previous home and was travelling around to shows, doing well even under a very young rider. He certainly looks fine on the one video she put up of him. She says that even now he rides nicely so really his current behavior would class as being out of character if the previous owners were honest.
If we are to believe those facts then we have to try to understand why he's now behaving irrationally. 
It would appear that:
It isn't being tied that bothers him because he does much the same thing when held by someone. 
What seems to bother him is what's being done to him when he's tied that causes him to have an anxiety/panic attack and lose self control
He could be tied to a tree with a non-breakaway system but as @mmshiro pointed out - tying someone up in a graveyard won't cure them of being afraid of graveyards.
I thought he might be terribly buddy sour but apparently he is the same when still close to his buddy.


His anxiety seems to start when he's being groomed or being tacked up. That's not normal in a horse that was shown a lot unless it was something they dealt with in some way, though the previous owners say he was not like this when they had him.
If that's true then the obvious next line of thinking must be why is he suddenly so afraid of being groomed/touched?
Horses with Lyme Disease can become incredibly over sensitive to being touched and will go from being super normal to trying to avoid contact to lashing out in quite a short space of time if they develop that symptom.
Horse that are very deficient in Vit E can do the same.
Horses in pain somewhere in their body can over react to touch and being saddled
Horse with brain tumors behave irrationally - worst case scenario I know, but I've had two experiences of brain tumors in horses and both started out quite similar to the way this horse is behaving.


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