# Color tested my mare.. SURPRISE!



## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

I posted my rescue mare awhile back asking what color she was (at least I'm almost positive I did...). She was sold to me as red dun, which is on her papers, and that was the general consensus. Well. I got curious, so I sent in some hairs to UC Davis. I tested for cream and agouti. The colors she slightly resembled were red dun, dunskin, bay dun, and possibly dunalino (just the tail didn't fit). So, whichever one was eliminated would tell me my answer. Everyone said she couldn't be black based because when I got her, she had red points, and now they're at best chocolate and it's splotchy on her legs. But yeah. Tested her and she came back N/N for cream but homozygous for bay! Was super surprised! But here she is.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

You have to test for Extension (red/black) to determine for certain that she is not red. Agouti only expresses on a black base.

She still looks very sooty red to me.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

Not sure where that black horse came from... not even in my camera roll... I didn't know that.. darn. Haha. I was also told (on another forum) that the shade under a Dun doesn't affect how it expresses. My original thought was liver chestnut with dun, which would explain the super dark points, but I thought I was wrong. I don't even know! I suppose I'll be testing for extension next.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Base shade definitely affects how Dun can appear! Particularly on red which can be (base shade!) so dark it's almost black, if enough sooty is present.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Your horse tested EEAA? She does not look black based to me at all. I would have guessed ee, Aa, aa or AA, Dd or DD.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

LoriF said:


> Your horse tested EEAA? She does not look black based to me at all. I would have guessed ee, Aa, aa or AA, Dd or DD.




I haven't tested for extension. So far all I've got is A/A. I didn't know agouti could hide on red, even when they're homozygous. Still learning! Haha


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

This stuff is fun. 

So she's questionable on Extension status but working on the assumption she's e/e (because she looks red to me), knowing she's A/A, and knowing she is at least D/d, if bred to an E/E stallion (any Agouti status, no extra modifiers), you would only get bay or bay dun. E/e would give you red, red dun, bay or bay dun. You cannot get a black or a black dun out of an A/A mare.

The only time you NEED to know exactly what genes your horse has is if you want to breed from them. That's why I think about colour genetics from a "what it can throw" perspective, because for most people that's how it's relevant. E/E can't throw red. A/A can't throw true black no matter the Extension status. A grey or a roan has to have at least one grey or roan parent. Silver and Agouti both hide on red, cream can hide on black.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

Yeah, not planning on breeding her! Haha. She's got a few faults that would prevent that. But I've just been really curious! So I tested her


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

You're more responsible than a lot of people. I've thought about colour genetics in relation to breeding my mare. She's from a long line of bays with a few chestnuts in there (notably, Secretariat)... so she is MOST LIKELY E/e A/A - but I haven't tested her.

I want either a black or a buckskin. Failing that, a nice loud bay pinto. I could all but guarantee myself a buckskin by looking for an E/E Cr/Cr stud (tested for Extension!) but black is unlikely and even IF a foal were to get pinto genes from the potential sire, you can't guarantee expression.

So even from a colour perspective, she's not the right mare for what I want to breed for. Conformationally, she doesn't have a good enough hind end to warrant bothering anyway. But I still think about it.

(It's a dream of mine to one day breed coloured Thoroughbreds for performance disciplines)


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> The only time you NEED to know exactly what genes your horse has is if you want to breed from them. That's why I think about colour genetics from a "what it can throw" perspective, because for most people that's how it's relevant. E/E can't throw red. A/A can't throw true black no matter the Extension status. A grey or a roan has to have at least one grey or roan parent. Silver and Agouti both hide on red, cream can hide on black.


Actually, you don't NEED to to exactly what genes your horse has. Testing the genetics of your horse is primarily for your desire to know information that cannot be obtained another way. Testing for genetic diseases that have been identified in the breed of your horse is for both careful breeding and to know what kind of care/management your horse may require. 

Testing for coat color is 100% personal desire to know what genetic colors and modifiers a horse has that determines their genetic coat color and what they could pass on. For the OP, it is to find out what the mare's true color is because the mare doesn't have a color that is obvious. Extension would identify if the mare is a black based dun or a red based dun. If black is present, agouti would identify if she is a bay dun or a grulla dun. Testing for cream would tell if she is a combination of both dun and cream dilutes together or if she is a dun dilute without any added cream dilution.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Just goes to show, you cannot tell what a horses true color is , by the color alone. 
Bay. I would not have called her bay.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

stevenson said:


> Just goes to show, you cannot tell what a horses true color is , by the color alone.
> Bay. I would not have called her bay.


You can't call her bay. She has the agouti modifiers. But if she is red based (e) ( and OP didn't know to test for E/e) then she is red based with agouti modifiers.

Agouti can only work on black E.


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## Daroga (Sep 16, 2016)

SunnyDraco said:


> Testing for coat color is 100% personal desire to know what genetic colors and modifiers a horse has that determines their genetic coat color and what they could pass on. For the OP, it is to find out what the mare's true color is because the mare doesn't have a color that is obvious.



Well said - If it works out with the mare I'm looking to purchase, I will be getting her tested simply because I'd like to be informed. I would likely never breed her, because I don't think I have the knowledge of horses yet to be breeding, but I'd hate to be walking around saying "my cremello mare" if she was actually a smoky crème. But that's just my personal opinion, I get that a good horse isn't a bad color... but it does kind of make me feel like a bad owner if I can't even tell you the right coat color of my horse. xD


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

timonlionking said:


> I haven't tested for extension. So far all I've got is A/A. I didn't know agouti could hide on red, even when they're homozygous. Still learning! Haha
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


ALL horses are either black E/_ or red (chestnut) e/e. ALL colors are based off of those. So since we can't tell by looking at her (do you have any recent pics now that she's in better shape?) The first step is to determine whether she is black or red. After that point you can factor in the other genes.

As said agouti on black is bay, but agouti on chestnut/red is still just chestnut as that extension gene is always the first step and determines how the other genes work, agouti is the second (black vs bay/brown).

So what we DO know is she doesn't have cream and is not black based (if E/_ will be bay/brown due to the agouti), not super surprised on either. So she is either red dun or bay dun and not anything else (barring weird random things that hide or don't at all match her phenotype lol).


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Dehda01 said:


> You can't call her bay. She has the agouti modifiers. But if she is red based (e) ( and OP didn't know to test for E/e) then she is red based with agouti modifiers.
> 
> Agouti can only work on black E.


And she 100% has dun so even IF bay based would not be bay but bay dun  so no, she doesn't look bay because she's not either way.

Most horses are pretty easy to tell by looking at, or at least narrow it down to a few options. Then you have the few that you just have no idea and even an educated guess doesn't mean much haha.


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