# Whips :(



## ratlover (Mar 24, 2009)

I think that whips are cruel.

How would we like to be whipped? It's hardly fair to whip horses.:-(

Does anybody agree, and if not, why not?

Would love to hear some opinions on this.:-(


----------



## horseluver50 (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree that they can be cruel if you use them wrongly.
Sometimes.. you dont even use the whip, when the horse knows its there they listen better.
Like in lunging.. you have the long lunge whip, but you dont hit them with it.

I think its cruel in horse racing and stuff ( I dont like horse racing)... and if you repetitively hit them with it.. but other than that.. it is more of an aid


----------



## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

They're cruel if used wrongly... and I'll admit, I've used a whip wrongly before on my mare before I really understood much about horseback riding/care and stuff... but at least now if she's acting up, all I have to do is ACT like I'm going to break a switch and she calms right down because she remembers the first time I ever laid a whip to her hindquarters.

If they're used right, I think they're fine. 

I, for one, will not hesitate to pop a horse HARD across the hindquarters/back/shoulder/neck if they threaten me. I've raised welts on a horses rear more than once by laying a whip to them, but only if they threaten my own welfare by 'rushing' me, kicking at me, or something like that. Most times, it only took once and the horse learned that it wasn't supposed to do that.

It may seem cruel, but if it keeps me alive...

I will not, however, whip a horse for nothing. In the years that I've owned horses I'm glad to say that I've learned a lot more than I knew back then when I first got my mare and I'm very glad to say that I can keep a wrap on my temper now.

If a horse refuses something they've done a thousand times or more, I'll pop them, but if it's something they're not used to, I only tap them to encourage them to move on forwrds and 'face their fears'.

That's my take on it, anyway...


----------



## Miss Katie (Dec 30, 2007)

Australia is in the proccess of bringing in a new set of rules regarding whips in racing. Bout freakin time.

I like whips if used correctly. They can be very helpful. And personally, I would never use a xc course of any level or jumps higher than 80cm without carrying one. I love my dressage whip, although I rarly carry it, its great to have on off days when I need her to focus on me. Like Horsluver said, you dont need to hit the horse with them for them to e of use.


----------



## jessetjames (Mar 24, 2009)

i like using crops i eather A flash them and they horse will respond or if she is being a strait up B* she can use a spanking every know and then to let her know she wont get away with it. also i carry a whip if she gets on the skits a frantic side because she knows im carrying one so she will calm right down. but i agree with whips can be terible if used in the wrong way.


----------



## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

I don't mind popping a horse on the hind once if he is doing something absolutely unacceptable. It only takes once though, and it only stings for a bit - I've had someone hit me with a horse whip on my "hind," as hard as I would pop the horse for discipline just to see. 

I use one when lunging, but only as an aid. I never touch them with it. I'll also use it move the horses from one paddock to another, as an aid. It makes me seems much bigger than I am, and they listen a bit better in a group.

You shouldn't beat your horse, but as an aid or a disciplinary device, I think it's ok - so long as your horse isn't -injured- in the process.


----------



## ridingismylife2 (Nov 4, 2008)

LeahKathleen said:


> I don't mind popping a horse on the hind once if he is doing something absolutely unacceptable. It only takes once though, and it only stings for a bit - I've had someone hit me with a horse whip on my "hind," as hard as I would pop the horse for discipline just to see.
> 
> 
> You shouldn't beat your horse, but as an aid or a disciplinary device, I think it's ok - so long as your horse isn't -injured- in the process.


 
*same here.. and u also gotta remember that horses have much thicker skin than us  i hate when people abuse whips though and constantly smack their horses with it but a small tap (or a lil bit harder) isn't bad *


----------



## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

Used right, I don't see them as cruel. A dressage whip is basically used like your leg would be too guide the horse and tell it what you want, and crops, well when you've ridden a horse slow enough to turn a 2 stride into a five stride then you've got to love them!. Besides, usually all you need to do is carry them, or give a light tap and the horse gets the idea. One tap has got to be nicer then a rider constantly thumping the horses side because he's sooooo slow.


----------



## Equuestriaan (Nov 5, 2008)

A whip isn't cruel when used to reinforce your leg. Used in the wrong way it's ineffective and cruel, but if you're using it for the right reasons and at the right times... it's no worse than a spur and is only used when your initial aids don't get through.


----------



## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

Used correctly they work well for training aids I don't believe in being cruel and giving your horse a real lashing. A slight tap on a pawing leg, a quick swat on the hind end is fine. Also the sound of a whip is usually enough to get a horses attention like "what was that?" Horses are like kids some need more discipline than others one you may be able to simply say NO to and they stop others need a physical reminder bad behavior will not be tolerated but as with anything over doing it is cruel and abusive


----------



## Snaffle (Nov 5, 2008)

I use it to reinforce my leg on shoolies that have dead sides because I have to get the message through. (Blah I hate it when people let them get away with things and let them move really slow.) 
I don't whip for no reason however.


----------



## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

A whip is a training device, NOT a required riding tool. At least, thats how I learned it, and how I teach it to my students.

So many people use a whip as a "quick fix" to get their horse to be more responsive... but then they become dependant on it, and cannot motivate their horse to move forward without the use of a crop or spurs. Many people use the whip or spurs as a crutch. As a rider, instructor, and trainer... it really dissapoints me =/

I have a bat, crop, and dressage whip, but rarely use any of em ;P Don't get me wrong, i will use a crop as a "hearing aid" to get the horse's focus back on me, but as soon as i have the attention, i throw the crop over the arena fence and continue my ride. The Dressage whip is a great leg extender, and i'd occasionally use it while riding to help get a horse to move off my leg (i would place the whip further back on the horse's belly and tap, then use the pressure of my leg to encourage a lateral movement). But then i just get the horse to cue from my body and leg =)

In my opinion...... if you cannot motivate your horse to move forward willingly, whether it be over a jump, or around a barrel, or through a trail, etc without using a whip EVERY TIME... you shouldnt be jumping or barrel racing... you should be working on flat work, or you need to find another career for your horse, because its evident he isnt having a good time 

Furthermore... i've seen hormonal teens (and adults) get frustrated because their horse refused to jump (after jumping some 22 fences already) then they proceeded to beat the horse on the poll/neck rip them in a tight circle by their mouth, then kick (might i add, they had spurs too) and whip the horse until he jumps it over and over and over again "willingly" (i.e. without a refusal, because there is nothing willing about that horse jumping. It only jumps to not get beat). Anyways, where i was going with that was... some riders shouldnt be allowed to ride with a BIT.. let alone crop/spurs.

Sooooo my stance... whips and spurs aren't cruel... in the right hands. But in the wrong hands, whips and spurs can be the worst inventions in the Horse World, and thoroughly ruin a horse.

I hope that whole mess i wrote makes sense


----------



## rosie9r (Dec 1, 2008)

Well said, Skippy  I once leased an extremely buddy sour gelding who would not go out on the trail alone, much less leave the ranch. So all I had to do was carry a crop, not use it, just carry it and he was great. 

I am in the process of teaching the new ex racer to lunge. Yesterday he pulled the "I dont have to do anything you want or even acknowledge you are there"...basically was acting like he had never done it before. all it took was a couple whip cracks aimed at his feet and he got moving. I agree that you dont have to hit them with the whip to get them to respect it, sometimes just carrying it is enough. But i dont have a problem whacking them once if they are doing something dangerous like kicking at me, that is not tolerated.


----------



## ridingismylife2 (Nov 4, 2008)

i just noticed that i haven't used my whip forever xD i have it always just incase i need to use it but i haven't used it. I've only used it once on the horse i'm riding and that was because she was having a lazy day but i only had to use it at the beginning of the lesson once and through out the whole lesson she was really good


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I have a crop but I bought it to carry with me as an aid on the ground. I used just the handle, to press against my horses side or shoulder when he invaded my space....


----------



## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

farmpony84 said:


> I have a crop but I bought it to carry with me as an aid on the ground. I used just the handle, to press against my horses side or shoulder when he invaded my space....


I was going to mention this in my first post, but i think crops/whips are a great tool for teaching a disrespectful horse (as you said, one that invades space, and pushes into you etc). After all... they ARE 1,500 pound animals... we need some sort of "edge" when they finally realize their size and try to use it against us.

Miakoda is 6, and 15.3 hh. When i got her she was -BARELY- broke to lead. I haven't had to use a crop, but I -have- had to use *gasp* a stud chain. Currently when i lead her further than the turn out, I have the chain over her nose. She is/was EXTREMELY disrespectful and will bulldoze me if she decides she is not happy. When i was first teaching her to back on the lead line, she actually continually lunged forward with her head held very high trying to run me over and knock me down with her neck/shoulder, then she was so stiff, she would briskly walk fast circles around me and refuse to let me have her head.

I am only 160 lbs. She is 1,500 and disrespectful. The equation wasn't balanced, and i was on the losing end.

I had to use the stud chain only twice. The first time she did something I warned her that it wasn't just the halter over her nose. The second time, i gave it about a medium crank, and she stopped. And though I am still putting it on her, i haven't used it for about a week or so. I think that she is almost ready for a trial without the chain.

Thankfully i had this tool available because without it, i could have the potential of being seriously injured. But, I also knew how to use the tool, and when to remove the tool =)

So i agree with ya Farmpony, having a crop in hand while leading a disrespectful horse can be a great insurancy policy! =)

And thanks Rosie! I'm glad you could interpret my ramblings! LOL!


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't think stud chains, whips, crops, bats, or spurs are inherently cruel. I think they can be cruel if used out of anger or frustration but as reinforcers of our aids when a horse is not listening, they can be useful. I think it was Skippy who said that you shouldn't need them all the time. I agree. I don't ever use a whip (though I have been advised I should once I start jumping so I probably will carry it just in case) but I do use blunt ended spurs. I have very short legs and if a my horse is ignoring my cues after I ask and tell him, I will demand it with a little roll from my spur -- I would do the same thing with a crop.


----------



## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I defenately agree about the stud chain, when I first got painter hw would literally knock me over to get in his stall. I was 75lbs, he's 1200lbs, so he had a bit of an advanatge. I used a stud chain everytime I hndled him for several months, and I was not at all gentle when he tried to run me down (he would scrape me off on walls, spins, kick, or just plain run me over with his chest to get in his stall) Now I never use it and can put him away with one finger on the leadrope


----------



## Flexion (Nov 28, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I don't think stud chains, whips, crops, bats, or spurs are inherently cruel. I think they can be cruel if used out of anger or frustration but as reinforcers of our aids when a horse is not listening, they can be useful. I think it was Skippy who said that you shouldn't need them all the time. I agree. I don't ever use a whip (though I have been advised I should once I start jumping so I probably will carry it just in case) but I do use blunt ended spurs. I have very short legs and if a my horse is ignoring my cues after I ask and tell him, I will demand it with a little roll from my spur -- I would do the same thing with a crop.


I agree with you 100%. 

I rarely need to use a stick or spurs though. My legs are strong enough that I don't really need them unless I'm riding a stiff-sided horse or if the horse is misbehaving.


----------



## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

When I volunteer to lead the horses, we have to carry a crop with us. The horses are being led by different people, some with very little experience or confidence. Some of them can be testy with the strongest leaders. The crops give the leaders more confinence and the horses can tell. If we need to use it, it's usually just placed on them to reinforce a "Ho" and sometimes behind their elbow to give them a bit more go. The only time they were ever used in a disciplinary fasion was when Issac tried to bite his leader. He can be nasty, and likes to make sure you pay attention to him at all times. Once he realized his leader would not take his crap he was fine the rest of the class.


----------



## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

If my horse won't do something I know they can do.. Like get over a tiny crossrail or canter once around the ring, I might give them a tap on the shoulder and or, if they're really being stubborn, a smack on the behind, but I don't like, abuse them with it. .


----------



## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

Sometimes I'll just carry it to wake my horse up. 
If they're being lazy, one smack and all it takes is a nudge after that.


----------



## ratlover (Mar 24, 2009)

IheartPheobe said:


> Sometimes I'll just carry it to wake my horse up.
> If they're being lazy, one smack and all it takes is a nudge after that.


I don't think that's abusing them or anything, but I wouldn't use a whip to wake a horse up. Whether the skin is thicker or not, you wouldn't like it, and horses have equal rights to us.

I agree with a lot of the posts. I don't have time to write something really big right now, but hopefully the discussion will/can continue - it has been interesting.


----------



## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

You wouldnt like it if a horse was stumbling under you due to not being awake and attentive. Nor would the horse since he would likely hurt himself. A horse being awake is nessesary to his health and well being.


----------



## ALYJOMOFO (Dec 30, 2008)

my horse knows better than to think he can get away with misbehaving.

but when he does have some 'tude i do give him a firm smack with a crop or my hand. 

certain behaviors are just unacceptable.

but i would never beat him with a whip or anything


----------



## Bitless (Jan 11, 2008)

I very much agree with Skippy. 


Must say tho... i gave up using wips long ago. My horses never responded very well to them. 1 horse because he was abused so had a huge fear of them, and the other if you tapped he would just ignore it, if you gave him a wack( just one on the butt ) would try and do little rears or buck you off. And i have been better off without them.

I actually HATE seeing them in jumping . As i have only a few times seen them used correctly ( as in one single smack on the behind ) , every other time the horse has pretty much been layed into, this is even at big shows. As far as i see the horse shouldnt cop such a growling when 99.99% of the time its the riders fault for a horse thats ....so called 
' misbehaveing ' , especially at shows.

Im a little undesided about useing them to ... say...scare away a bossy or invasive horse. I for one have never had to use a wip in such a situation, the waveing of my hands and a low growly voice has always sufficed.

As far as i see a wip was designed for one thing.....an extention of your arm as an aid. Its not for dissipline. Such use as a guide for cues/aids in dressage i find totally acceptible. Or even an extention of your arm in ground training, to keep your self out of the kicking zone of a sparky young one or a similar situation. Also in Lungeing i find the use of the wip fine, as you are not supposed to hit the horse with a lunge wip is just a noise aid. 

I personally would try almost any other way of sorting a situation before going for the wip.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Horses do not have equal rights as humans as much as we love them...
Their skin is sensitive (they can feel a fly, remember?) but they still will not be hurt by a reprimand from a whip. If you go wailing on their head or something, that is different obviously. 

Note: When I say reprimand I mean reprimanding for not responding to my lighter cues.


----------



## Calamity Jane (Mar 16, 2009)

ratlover said:


> I think that whips are cruel.
> 
> How would we like to be whipped? It's hardly fair to whip horses.:-(
> 
> ...


 
What is cruel isn't the whip but it's cruel when a person misuses it for punishment.

How a bit is used can be very cruel if the rider yanks, jerks and basically tries to punish the horse with it.

Spurs can be cruel if the rider uses them to punish the horse by jabbing the horse with them.

Point is...it's not the whip. Take the stigma off the whip. It doesn't belong there. The "blame" belongs with those people who are cruel and who act cruel out of meanness or ignorance or both.

It is cruel to whip a horse. It's not cruel to use the whip to help the horse understand you better, to use the whip as an extension of your hand. 

For example, I use whips all the time, like this:

I am standing facing the horse. The horse is facing me. I look at the horse's left shoulder. I want that left shoulder to move, to have the front feet cross over and the horse to turn to my left. 

I look at that shoulder and I kiss or cluck and then I tap the air (1...2...3...4) with the whip and then if the horse doesn't move, I tap the shoulder with the whip with rhythm, never a whack. I tap softly, then more assertively and more assertively, never to sting the horse's shoulder, but to "bounce" the whip off the shoulder and the horse feels bothered, not pain, not fear, but bothered....and he moves that shoulder and I stop. 

Next time, I do the exact same steps, then the horse begins to learn there's a pattern, and then the horse decides to move the shoulder when I simply make a kiss sound or cluck sound and then I don't even need to use a whip anymore.

This is the correct way to use a whip. :wink: A whip is a great back up to a cue. It's a great way to help the horse understand you better and your goal should be to not need a back up cue, therefore phasing out the whip, but to begin with, you need to have a way to back up your cue and a whip is a great aid in this respect.

I never want my horse to be afraid of my tools. If he fears the whip, I'll make the whip a pleasant experience by rubbing his body with it and when he's comfortable with the whip, then I'll use it as I described above but I'll never use it to punish the horse.


----------



## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

I drive horses. You don't have legs on them when driving! The whip is used for many things in driving, such as helping encourage a bend. Nothing cruel about them, if they are used correctly.


----------



## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Whips, bits, and spurs are not cruel. They are objects.. Tools, when used properly, that can help us communicate with the horse. As mentioned, an extension of our arm or leg.. 

Cruelty is in the mind of the human who misuses the tool with malice, anger, or ignorance.


----------



## morganshow11 (Dec 19, 2008)

They are not cruel if you use them _right period._


----------

