# Mare Wants to Kill Me...



## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

gallopingfrog said:


> Hi there!
> 
> About a year ago, I purchased a mare with Easy Jet on both sides of her bloodlines, as a barrel prospect. She was only green broke and I knew she was going to need work when I bought her, but personality-wise, we clicked; which is something I definitely need with a horse. I rode Cocoa several times after we brought her home, and she actually did really well. She didn't understand back up cues, but understood the basic walk, trot, canter and stop. No buck, bite or rear. Just a sort of curiousity about what we were doing and why were doing it. Her only real vice was being terrifed of the horse trailer. I found out a little later that she had been "trained" the mean way....beat on her until she breaks.
> 
> ...


I don't have any advice for you, but i just wanted to say I am sorry for what you are dealing with. You must feel a lot of disapointment. Have you contacted the trainer and talked to them about her new behavior?


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## gallopingfrog (Feb 27, 2011)

I haven't tried to...but we'll put it this way. After we brought Cocoa home we found what felt like millions of people that didn't agree with their way of training (oy...if only we'd run into them sooner!), and it was apparently different from what they showed people when they toured the grounds. I haven't tried to contact them because I definitely don't want to take her back - and I pretty much just want to cut off all contact, ya know? Thank you for replying, though!


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi, back up and go back to the round pen. She has no respect for you and sees you as a follower and not a leader. One question. How do you get her to move around the pen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gallopingfrog (Feb 27, 2011)

I use a lunge whip ONLY as pressure, with kissy-noise cues. I don't touch her with the whip, but rather put the pressure on her by using it to make sound and close contact. I haven't stopped using the round pen - just haven't been able to make progress. Thanks!


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Try to understand horse dynamics. (How a horse acts in a herd.) When a dominant horse wants another horse to move, what does it do? I'm leaving that open for you to answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gallopingfrog (Feb 27, 2011)

I could be wrong, but a dominant horse would kick, bite, etc. to make another horse listen to it - and the horse should submit without much dispute at all....right? LOL


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Exactly. So for you to be hesitant on using a whip is way softer than what that horse would get in a herd.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

So here's my advice: if you feel that you are not a leader or can take on a leader position, it will Never get better for you. She will Always have the upper hand and you will not get past this. Can you be a leader?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gallopingfrog (Feb 27, 2011)

I think I can. I mean, I won't like it by any means, but I'll do it. I know that she can't be happy this way, and neither am I. Like I said, I'm not giving up...

Thanks.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Tom Dorrance use to say that "you have to get the horse on your side".
I had some trouble understanding what he meant by that until I had a horse like you are describing.

It is not enough to just run them around in a circle.
They have to have (for lack of better words) some kind of purpose to it or find the joy in it.

They get stuck and there is not a whole lot you can do to unstick them.
They have learned to evade by just stopping.
The more pressure you put on them the more they leave until you have nothing to work with.

I had a horse here that the owner had tried to use a backhoe to load him in a trailer and the horse still did not move.

I would suggest starting alllll over and work on what you can get done and take as long as it takes.

It is going to be harder than starting a fresh colt out of the wild and you need a lot of time.

I got the horse loading but it took 5 times longer than any other horse.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Ok. You have to make sure you stay committed and consistent. Start over in the round pen. The whip is Only an extension of your hand. If you are not getting the desired movement you will need to pop her on the butt. Remember, in a herd its teeth (grabs skin can make her bleed) or a kick (self explanatory). You tell me what would be gentler? Whip that you pop on her butt or kicking or biting? A horse sees a leader when they are made to move.

There's strength in that language. Just what the animal is looking for. The horse won't follow a weaker animal but will follow the stronger one. You need to be that strong leader.

Make her feet move. But only make her feet move the direction you tell her! If she tries to turn a different direction, that's when your whip comes in handy. Its a bite. You also need to know how and where to position your body to the horses body. 

Do you have you done this before?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Dear Frog,

is this mare turned out with the other horses? Is she dominant or subordinant in the herd? Is she defensive of herself in any other way, such as does she pin her ears when you approach, or put the saddle on or try to lead her? Do you get the feeling she is trying to "do unto you before she you do unto her?"

I mean, is her kicking a self defense mechanism or do your really think she wants to attack you? If so, wouldn't she have charged you and wouldn't some of her kicks hit home?

I think (and this is not my idea but is based on reading I have done. So that means it is just theory as far as I know from personal experience and take it for that only) . .. That she feels very much pressured and needing to defend herself , pretty much all the time. This is probably as a result of the overly high pressure techniques used by that trainer.
She is now in self defense mode, because she thinks she has no other options.
What Imight do is take her into the round pen and do . . . nothing.

Don't press her at all. Let her look all around the pen, looking for help, just stay there and hope that she may turn and see you as the calmest, nicest place to be. If you need to , move her away from the gate, and if she kicks do nothing (except stay clear) dont increase the pressure on her at all. Ask her to move a little, if she takes off kicking and bucking . . do nothing.
If she zones out and starts to run around and around, let her do it for 5 or 6 trips, then just interupt her and change the direction by stepping into her path. 
You just keep turning around , stay facing her as she circles, but keep you body in a nuetral frame. If she cocks an ear on you or looks at you like she would likd to come in, take one small step away, back, and see if she draws in.
relieve the pressure the tiniest amount any time she looks at you , BUT, if she turns suddenly and charges in at you too fast., put your hands up firmly and stop her. She needs to be invited in and needs to come in peacefully.

If you get her to stop bucking and look at you but won't come, you go up to her, pet her then walk away. She may hook on. If she does, take a short walk around the pen, somemore petting and quit!

Just see if the feel isn't different if you go into the round pen with her with your idea to be the calmest, steadiest place there is, not to add to her pressure. If she kicks and bucks and you do nothining and she does nothing but kick/buck and makes no change in attitude, then nothing is lost by at least trying this.


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## gallopingfrog (Feb 27, 2011)

Marecare - Thank you so much for your advice. After reading several of the responses here, I think I need to combine most of them to form her new training plan. 

mbender - Yep. I have done this before, but I've been lucky. My others were easy peasy learners and really good listeners. I've never had one that's fought me like this. 

tinyliny - Wow. You know, I never even thought about that. That is a really excellent idea. I think I'll try that, in conjunction with some of the other ideas posted here, to work with her. It's funny how you hear that it's all about pressure and you don't stop to think that maybe you should start with none...lol Thanks!


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

To get her to move forward your body needs to be behind her drive line, ( about the hip more towards her butt). Point the direction and ask her to move out. The whip is just a reinforcement of your asking. Keep her going in the same direction until you want to change sides. 

Step in front of the drive line ( shoulders. Mid neck) she should stop and turn. If not, show her with a point and reinforce with whip. You may not need to use that whip at all. Depends on her. If she doesn't turn pop her on her shoulder. She should actually turn into the circle not away. If at anytime she tries to run through your request, you stay on her and make her move the direction you asked.

Don't let her stop on her own! You are leader and when you feel its time for her to stop then its ok for her to stop. I have more but need to make sure you understand what I am telling you first. 
I know I'm missing some things here but I'm sure someone will add and clean it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Fear Around Horses 101: 

I'd forget about trying to *make* her do anything right now, because you're afraid she's going to kick you, & though you try not to show it, *she knows* (horses know!) Her knowing will cause her to take over, because you're not leader anymore.

No shame in being afraid of getting hurt, in fact you _should _be afraid in that situation (your brain is telling you that you don't have the skill at present to deal with it, so get out of the round pen! ) but *the solution is never to fake it till you make it, with horses!*

You want to get a 12' lead rope on her, to bring her head toward you to control the hind (move it *away* from you). Your fear will subside significantly, & then you can proceed to present her with a "good feel" of helpfulness & leadership, & build on that till you can confidently round pen her.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, as I am pretty new to horses myself, but when she bucks in the round pen you need to get after her more and make her move her feet, enforcing that bucking is always going to lead to more work. I have a tiny little arab that loves to buck when I ask her for a little more, and it used to scare the crap out of me. So as a result my natural reaction would be to back off and give her her space. Come to find out that was completely wrong, and just common sense really.
I also had a huge problem in the round pen with her wanting out and refusing to go in even one circle. It was so frustrating until a neighbor that trains her own horses told me to put her on a long line. That's how we do the round pen now so that I can keep her head turned in and the attention on me. 
If you are watching Clinton Anderson I do believe he talks about both of these things.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

How is this going for you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

She might be stressed from her training experience and now have ulcers which can make them cranky and more apt to kick.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

mbender said:


> To get her to move forward your body needs to be behind her drive line, ( about the hip more towards her butt). Point the direction and ask her to move out. The whip is just a reinforcement of your asking. Keep her going in the same direction until you want to change sides.
> 
> Step in front of the drive line ( shoulders. Mid neck) she should stop and turn. If not, show her with a point and reinforce with whip. You may not need to use that whip at all. Depends on her. If she doesn't turn pop her on her shoulder. She should actually turn into the circle not away. If at anytime she tries to run through your request, you stay on her and make her move the direction you asked.
> 
> ...


 When you stop her, stop her on the opposite side as the entrance. If she tries to stop at the entrance make her move.

I have to disagree with the part of her running past when you want her to change directions. Mainly for my own safety, I don't want to be run over. I would let her go by but the next time around I would use more force/energy to change her direction. This is if you are not using a lunge or lead rope on her. If you are, I would bump and jerk the rope while using the whip until she turns and not let her go past.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

You've got some good advise here. I would not do anything with her other than caring for her for (it depends on the horse) maybe 3 months. Spend time just hanging around her, lightly touching her, and that's about it. Of course, gently asking for her feet to clean and trim, feeding her but these things go without saying. I think you'll get further if you first do that and forget all notions of getting any kind of progress in human terms. You have to build rapport. If she tries to kick you in the paddock then I would not confront her. I would watch her body language very closely and actually retreat before she decides to lash out. Then I would slowly move back to where you see she's comfortable and then leave it for the day. This works so well and at the end she will love you so much. This will equate to her respecting you and doing all that you ask - to please you. Then you will be safe.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I do agree with almost everything already said BUT, whenever I do work with a horse that is going through these problems, such as kicking, biting, rearing..I would rather give them a few pops on the butt with a whip than risk getting myself hurt (because, then who is going to help the horse?? not you if you got kicked in the face trying to stand there and be nice)..in a herd horses will be bitten, kicked, chased, and whatever else the dominate horse can do to prove they are top horse. I would be careful with her and let her have the option to be nice and come to you, if not..pop.

I would do ALOT of work in the round pen and tinyliny couldn't have given better advice for that. I'm just not going to let a horse come in on me in the round pen, kick at me, and be agressive towards me..I WILL whack it if it tries. I'm not saying beat it around the round pen but ANY hint of "I'm going to try to get you" will get a whack and it's more of just a surprise like "OH hey! she means business" whack..

I don't like to back off from a horse when they are being agressive because it's like you're encouraging that behavior..horse thinks "hey I did that and she left me alone.."..person tried it again and horse kicks " ohh. I did it again and she left me alone! I'm training my person.."


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I guess it depends how the horse is acting. Is it defensive or aggressive. It is so hard to say what to do in this situation if you can't see the horse. If she's been handled rough then kicking could be defensive and then giving her whack might make it worse especially if it is not impeccably timed. 

But I do take your point. I too would not want to be kicked etc - I always defend my space.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Right, TLO, & also,* if you're afraid*, which means the horse knows it, & you push yourself to spank horse at liberty, it's very likely that the horse will retaliate. 

Not that the horse is vicious, but horse'll just take over as with another horse, not thinking about how frail our human bodies are.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TheLovedOne said:


> You've got some good advise here. I would not do anything with her other than caring for her for (it depends on the horse) maybe 3 months. Spend time just hanging around her, lightly touching her, and that's about it. Of course, gently asking for her feet to clean and trim, feeding her but these things go without saying. I think you'll get further if you first do that and forget all notions of getting any kind of progress in human terms. You have to build rapport. If she tries to kick you in the paddock then I would not confront her. I would watch her body language very closely and actually retreat before she decides to lash out. Then I would slowly move back to where you see she's comfortable and then leave it for the day. This works so well and at the end she will love you so much. This will equate to her respecting you and doing all that you ask - to please you. Then you will be safe.


This is a little scary, and could most definitely get a person seriously hurt. By doing the above, you are showing the horse that they are in control. You are not showing it that you love it, you are showing it that you are subordinate. 
You need respect from the horse, and pussyfooting around the horse isn't going to do either of you a lick of good. Pussyfooting around and retreating at the exact wrong moment, and showing the horse that you're not going to be a leader in their lives is liable to get you badly hurt.
This response really reminds me of Parelli's idea to feed a biting horse carrots every time it bites, to show it love and show it that you care about it, instead of getting after the horse for biting.
When a horse kicks at another horse in the pasture it means "GET AWAY NOW." You are the human, you are supposed to be (for argument's sake) equal to the horse, if not more important (I stand by more important/the boss, but I digress) - by backing down to a kicking horse you are saying "you're more important to me/you are above me" - horses like this become a danger to handle.
Relate this to completely human terms: There's a witchy person that you work with at the office who constantly degrades you and gives you more work to do because she thinks she's more important than you. You decide to play along, and assume the role of the subordinate. She does not go "oh, what a nice human being, I think I love her and will treat her like my equal" - no, she piles on more work, and degrades you more because you're an easy target; she knows she has you beat.

You need to get the horse to respect you. Respect isn't going to come by playing the subordinate.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes, I absolutely agree with Thelovedone..its really hard to tell without seeing it firsthand. If it is a defensive kick or she doesn't trust you, I wouldn't be in the round pen working her. It should be all about just spending time with her and gaining that bond and trust before you ask her to really work for you. You both have to be confident with eachother and trust eachother to make a good team. . Its really hard to decide what advice to give..I didn't mean my earlier post to come across as just pop her everytime she kicks even if it is just a defensive kick..or a happy "I feel good" kick..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> This is a little scary, and could most definitely get a person seriously hurt. By doing the above, you are showing the horse that they are in control.


I can see how you would think that. I can assure that is not what would happen if this is done correctly. Hitting a horse can get you hurt just as quickly if not quicker.

I wouldn't be so sure of my ideas if were you justdressageit - the tone actually communicates something to me.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> Yes, I absolutely agree with Thelovedone..its really hard to tell without seeing it firsthand. If it is a defensive kick or she doesn't trust you, I wouldn't be in the round pen working her. It should be all about just spending time with her and gaining that bond and trust before you ask her to really work for you. You both have to be confident with eachother and trust eachother to make a good team. . Its really hard to decide what advice to give..I didn't mean my earlier post to come across as just pop her everytime she kicks even if it is just a defensive kick..or a happy "I feel good" kick..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. It is so hard to use words isn't it.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

I just wanted to offer another perspective and what I describe is really a fairly advanced method. I think you might have to see it in order to appreciate it fully. I learned it from a guy who worked with Tom Dorrance. I actually had to think about what he did for a few days before I got it.


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## Salila (Jun 9, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> I can assure that is not what would happen if this is done correctly.


The problem is, you described it in a way that makes it hard to 'do correctly.' 

I do agree that earning the horses general trust should be one of the first things, but you made it seem like you can earn trust without earning respect. Trust and respect have to go hand in hand. 

By saying that you would watch the horse's body language and retreat if you saw any signs of bucking, you are enforcing the idea in the horse's mind that he or she is in the lead. It's not exactly the same situation, but think about it this way: if you are out hiking, and you come across some predatory animal, such as a cougar or a bear or a pack of wolves, it is usually a better idea to throw out your arms and legs, and become 'bigger' and 'meaner.' If you give that predatory animal the lee-way and start to retreat, or even worse, start to run, you might as well have a big "Free Hamburger" sign on the back of your shirt. It's going to chase you, and very likely eat you. So in the world of horses, backing down right before s/he bucks or attacks is like saying "I'm paying very close attention to you, and I realized I've just ****ed you off, so now I'm going to back away because I'm afraid of you and you are bigger and meaner and stronger than me." 

It would be more appropriate to back off when she is showing *good* signs, not bad signs. Like they say, "end every lesson on a good note," this should be ended on a good note, too. If she acts like she's going to buck, or charge, she needs to be shown that that is not acceptable, typically by making *her* move away. If she shows interest, moves a bit closer, keeps an ear cocked toward you, or even just lets you get a step closer than the day before without running off or attacking, that's where you end the lesson. That's where you back off. 

To the OP: In the round pen, for the first few days, aye, don't ask her to do anything. She does, apparently, seem to have developed some fear of it. If most of the 'training' she received was in the round pen, she has every right to be afraid. To her, being in a round pen could be synonymous to being beaten. Give her some sort of food in the round pen, maybe a handful of grain in a bucket or a flake of hay. Leave it for her at the other end of the pen, away from the gate. She has to be able to think of the round pen as a safe place. 

When you start working with her, keep in mind that she should never turn her butt to you. She should always turn *into* the circle and not change direction (when you ask for a change of direction, of course) by turning her butt to you and her head to the fence. Putting a lunge line on her can help with this, you just have to give it a good bump any time she starts to pay attention to what is going on outside the pen. Something to watch for is when she puts her head down, makes a chewing motion with her mouth, and keeps an ear cocked to you. This is when you can ease up, ask her to come in toward you (at a walk, of course!) because this is when she is saying "Ok, got the point. You have my attention, and you are obviously a better place to be than out here, because out here I have to keep moving."

Also, never let her stop by the gate. The gate is of no concern when lunging. Ask her to stop in random locations. Also, incorporating words when leading her can help in the lunging process, too. 

With my gelding, the first thing I taught him was that when I say "Walk" and give a tug on the lead, he needs to walk with me. Then I taught him that "Woah" means stop, "Easy" means slow down, "back up" obviously means back up. I carried them over to the lunging, and now when I say "woah" even when he's cantering around the pen, he throws his back legs under him and slides to a stop, and "easy" tells him to take his canter down to a trot, and saying "trot" takes him down to a trot, and telling him to go back into a canter will take him there, too. I hardly have need of a whip at all, though I do carry one to give him some encouragement to listen when he doesn't want to, in which all I do slap the ground and progressively get closer until he moves. 

At first, he wouldn't want to move away from me when I asked him to, and if I'd gotten close and he still wasn't moving, I increased the pressure by tapping him with the whip, and every three or four taps, making it a bit harder. He would move off within a second or two, didn't want to stick around for that. 

Anyways. Good luck. I hope to hear that all is going better soon! Ach... this came out much longer than I intended!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

hmm..I'm really thinking about videoing me working my horse in the round pen to show what I'm trying to say..


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

the only thing is I don't know if my mare WILL kick or bite..lol she is a dream in the round pen..I say walk and she walks, I say trot and she trots, I say lope and she lopes..i said whoa and she stops and come to me in the middle of the round pen..I don't have to have a whip with her..


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TheLovedOne said:


> I can see how you would think that. I can assure that is not what would happen if this is done correctly. Hitting a horse can get you hurt just as quickly if not quicker.
> 
> I wouldn't be so sure of my ideas if were you justdressageit - the tone actually communicates something to me.


Could you please clarify the last statement? I believe you're quite new to this board, could you perhaps point me to a thread (if you have posted) about your background? I'm genuinely curious as to where you're coming from. 
There are people at every barn that act like what you described in the post I quoted - people who walk on eggshells around their horse. If the horse so much as moves a muscle wrong, the human practically holds its breath and dares not tell the horse where to go, or what to do. They have a misconception that if they please the horse and do whatever the horse wants, the horse will fall in love with them, and they won't dare hurt the human. What the horse figures out instead is "oh, well.. I can get away with anything!" I hate working with these spoiled horses. They've learned from one (or a couple) of humans that they can walk all over people - and that isn't so. 
I will not give a horse a carrot if it bites to show it that it is okay - that is rewarding a bad behavior. I will not let a horse threaten to kick or strike or do anything of that nature - if it does, there is negative reinforcement; i.e. you want to be naughty, you can work HARD. A horse threatens to kick me, you're darn right I will make him regret it - disengaging the hindquarter, and letting him know that it is absolutely, simply unacceptable that he offer to kick. Walking around on eggshells saying "it's okay horsey, I'm not going to hurt you" and retreating at the wrong moment is going to get you noticed in a bad way - in the "you're meat" kinda way.
If a horse offers to kick another in the pasture, he is either met with "don't you dare!" and a threat or kick himself by a superior, or the subordinate saying "okay, I'm getting the heck out of your way!" - You as the human should never be the subordinate, or you're going to end up hurt, or worse. 
If a child got a candy bar every time he said "no!" or hit someone, do you think the child would stop doing such things? No, they would likely take advantage of the situation. Rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior tends to be the way to get desired results with positive reactions from both ends.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

DrumRunner said:


> the only thing is I don't know if my mare WILL kick or bite..


If you aren't sure, may I ask what your reasoning is behind the title "Mare wants to kill me"? Anticipating it and worrying about it isn't going to help; horses can pick up on fear and like it or not, your body language might convey a self-fulfilling prophecy. Kind of like anticipating bad luck after walking under a ladder - the more you think about it and worry, the more you're going to over-react and be over-sensitive to things you wouldn't have thought twice about before. 
If you're nervous around your mare, talk to a trainer about getting some lessons on groundwork and reading body language. Body language is your first line of defense, and it's a science in itself, and hard to learn without a teacher, as we humans are so distanced from reading it naturally.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't think Drumrunner is the OP and thus not reaponsible for the title.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The OP is pretty quiet here. Would love to hear what she is thinking NOW. She is getting a lot of advice, and it seems off hand to fall into two camps;
Show the mare you are the alpha horse by snapping her a good one if she kicks out and make her move , don't let her turn her butt to you.
OR
Create a good relationship first, don't put pressure on her 
AND the way some folks see this is be a namby pamby and beg her to be good and get out of her way if she's mean to you.

I hope that you all do not think my original post, pages back, falls into the second camp. I feel that I was offering a third alternative;

Do not let the horse run you around, but don't up the anti of pressure on her if she acts defensively. Ignore it. BE there and defend your space if necessary, but let the horse figure out that you are not going to attack for no apparent reason. It is a possibility that this mare is locked into a mindset that she will reacte defensively to all interactions with people now. That has to be changed. Then, see how she reacts to being asked to move over, move on, change direction ,yield her hind, shoulder etc.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> This is a little scary, and could most definitely get a person seriously hurt. By doing the above, you are showing the horse that they are in control. You are not showing it that you love it, you are showing it that you are subordinate.
> You need respect from the horse, and pussyfooting around the horse isn't going to do either of you a lick of good. Pussyfooting around and retreating at the exact wrong moment, and showing the horse that you're not going to be a leader in their lives is liable to get you badly hurt.
> This response really reminds me of Parelli's idea to feed a biting horse carrots every time it bites, to show it love and show it that you care about it, instead of getting after the horse for biting.
> When a horse kicks at another horse in the pasture it means "GET AWAY NOW." You are the human, you are supposed to be (for argument's sake) equal to the horse, if not more important (I stand by more important/the boss, but I digress) - by backing down to a kicking horse you are saying "you're more important to me/you are above me" - horses like this become a danger to handle.
> ...


I agree 100%! That's why I said what I needed to before. I will stand behind that and will stand behind what JustDressage said! Who's the Boss??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Salila said:


> The problem is, you described it in a way that makes it hard to 'do correctly.'
> 
> I do agree that earning the horses general trust should be one of the first things, but you made it seem like you can earn trust without earning respect. Trust and respect have to go hand in hand.
> 
> ...


Also very good advice!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Sorry for a triple post! But as someone mentioned. The OP needs to respond a bit more here. My advice is: go slow, watch herd dynamics, and don't EVER show fear! Most of us here want you to succeed. If you become a strong Leader, you Will succeed. If you can't, sell the horse and get one that is Dead broke. This is my last post on this subject!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> Could you please clarify the last statement?




If you have a question please don't write an essay just ask. I'm not sure what you want to know. You seem so very angry towards me and so I'm asking you to be a little bit more calm. 

It seems like you're attacking me for offering advice that you don't understand or agree with. Are you the OP. No I don't think you are and so I'm pretty sure that attacking people the way that you are doing is not a very productive way to be a member of this online community. You've stated your opinion and I've stated mine. Is that clear enough for you. I could go on about people like you who bully people in boarding farms and in life in general but I won't because I will attempt to be polite, positive, and progressive.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> If you have a question please don't write an essay just ask. I'm not sure what you want to know. You seem so very angry towards me and so I'm asking you to be a little bit more calm.
> 
> It seems like you're attacking me for offering advice that you don't understand or agree with. Are you the OP. No I don't think you are and so I'm pretty sure that attacking people the way that you are doing is not a very productive way to be a member of this online community. You've stated your opinion and I've stated mine. Is that clear enough for you. I could go on about people like you who bully people in boarding farms and in life in general but I won't because I will attempt to be polite, positive, and progressive.
> [/COLOR]


I'm sorry but I never saw DressageIt ever attacking you! She was stating her opinion and you are mad because it happened to be your post she didn't agree with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> If you aren't sure, may I ask what your reasoning is behind the title "Mare wants to kill me"?
> 
> 
> > UH????...I'm not the OP.. I didn't name this thread??..I KNOW my horse won't do these things. She knows better and has learned to respect me and my space..I AM top horse and she is the subordinate horse..


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

TLO, my entire reply wasn't to you. I would ask that you please understand that this is the internet, and therefore no tone can be conveyed. I am certainly not angry towards you, rather I am trying to keep everyone safe. I've seen and dealt with horses created by people who tiptoe around their horses, and the horses can truly become dangerous. The person thinks that they are doing right and that they are trying to get their horse to love them, but in reality they're creating a highly dangerous situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

DrumRunner said:


> JustDressageIt said:
> 
> 
> > If you aren't sure, may I ask what your reasoning is behind the title "Mare wants to kill me"?
> ...


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## gallopingfrog (Feb 27, 2011)

Thank you for all of your replies!

I just wanted to let everyone know that after reading all the different replies, I got to thinking about the possibility that the defensiveness was due to pressure (and the fear caused by whatever happened) in the round pen. So I took her out of it. I lunged her both ways using no whip. She didn't kick. She had her full attention on me, ear cocked at me, licking of the lips, etc. She was perfect. She didn't act up once.

So we compromised, Cocoa and I. I agreed not to put her in the round pen and she agreed to do as I asked. After we finished with the session, I invited her in and she came right up to me, slowly. Then proceed to lick my hand like a dog - which is more than I've ever gotten from her. I'll put her in the round pen again, eventually, but not until we've built a good, trusting relationship.

Even today, she has been much more relaxed and calm. I feel like it's all moving so smoothly, I keep waiting for a hiccup. But I'll just keeping working her and building a relationship with her. 

But I never would have thought of taking her out of the round pen if I hadn't read the replies here. Thank you so much!


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Good for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Salila (Jun 9, 2010)

I'm glad you've found what works for her.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

So glad that you got a lead line on her & didn't try to fool her about your emotions! The rule of thumb, when either you or horse have gotten emotional, is to back up a step. Good luck with her!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

No, I meant that I don't think that my horse would even attempt to kick because she knows the deal.

Maybe she just doesn't like the round pen. I've seen horses like that, they are almost claustrophobic..hmm..Maybe try feeding her in the round pen and letting her see that there aren't any monsters in it. Let her just hang out in there by herself for about an hour with feed and water and see what happens..If it does seem to work I would leave her in there a little longer each time..

I am glad you found out what works for the both of you!! Good luck keeping it going!


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Horses think in specifics for the most part, not generalizations. If the horse had a bad experiences in a round pen, it's not surprising that she would act defensive and kick in a round pen and be cooperative and willing elsewhere.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

OK JDI and mbender I have obviously misunderstood the tone. I realize that people do all sorts of things to horses to make them crazy. Haven't we all seen both i.e. the pushover and the hit slap happy nimrod. 

Drumrunner I would love to see a video clip of you - that would be cool 

Gallopingfrog that is great news and my heart goes out to you for having paid for someone to mess up your horse - what a burn!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

TheLovedOne said:


> Drumrunner I would love to see a video clip of you - that would be cool
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Of me working in the round pen??


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I despise the quote thing..


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> I despise the quote thing..


Maybe it despises you  Sure you in the roundpen you outside the roundpen whatever you like to show.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I can try to video something today..and I don't care if it doesn't like me because I REALLY don't like it..


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Frog, that is awesome. I am so glad that you found the "third" way. I mean, the way that isn't obvious at first.
I sent you a PM about some books I recommend if you enjoy reading.
Good Luck and kudos for your patience.


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## x Bustie and Alli x (Jan 15, 2011)

What about the monty robert's technique of join up? I think its pretty similar to what mbender is saying as you act the dominant horse and drive her away untill she sees you as someone who will protect/lead/never hurt (the follow up bit) her and she will want to be with you and *follow* you! Google it and there are some videos... See what you think! Can't wait till I get an enclosure suitable so I can join-up with my mares...


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