# western bit questions



## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

what is the normal bit progression?

is there a type/style of bit that lends itself better for having the reins in 1 hand instead of 2?

if the horse is not turning and following it's nose as it should, would you keep it in a snaffle, or look for something else?


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

IMO, a horse who is still having trouble with lateral flexion (following its nose) and turning needs to be in a snaffle. 

A curb bit is not designed for one rein cues, especially not wide, open cueing that can be needed at that phase. You can do some leading rein with curb bits, as a correction, but if that is the main training goal at the moment, a snaffle is a much better choice.

Additionally, some snaffles lend themselves to turning much better than others. For hard-to-turn horses, I like to use a big D ring or even better, a full cheek or fulmer. The sides act as guides along the side of the horse's face.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

karliejaye said:


> IMO, a horse who is still having trouble with lateral flexion (following its nose) and turning needs to be in a snaffle.
> 
> A curb bit is not designed for one rein cues, especially not wide, open cueing that can be needed at that phase. You can do some leading rein with curb bits, as a correction, but if that is the main training goal at the moment, a snaffle is a much better choice.
> 
> Additionally, some snaffles lend themselves to turning much better than others. For hard-to-turn horses, I like to use a big D ring or even better, a full cheek or fulmer. The sides act as guides along the side of the horse's face.


currently using a O-ring snaffle, but i have a d-ring snaffle available

the d-ring, cheek-wise, is smaller than the O-ring


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Many people feel they must use a curb bit when riding a horse in Western tack. This is only true if you are showing and the rules require it.

You can ride one handed in a snaffle bit as easily as you can ride one handed in a curb bit. On the other hand, many people have done quite well riding with two hands while using a curb bit although the snaffle was designed more for this purpose. Ideally, you should be riding more with your body and less with you hands when using either type of bit.

Pulling the inside rein in the direction of a turn should always be used as a last resort. When this is done, it is best done with a snaffle bit.

If a rider is relaxed, balanced, and moving with his horse, the horse should also be relaxed and open to subtle influences. In such a case, a rider should be able to turn the horse by simply drawing his outside leg back slightly and rotating his upper body as a unit in the direction of the turn. Imagine a circle painted on the ground and look about 1/6th of the circle ahead. Many things happen automatically when this is done. I have seen numerous horses who are accustomed to being pulled in turns respond beautifully to such influences. I liken this to walking with a friend with your arm around her shoulders. You turn, and she turns with you without thinking about it.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Honestly while I argree with the above 100% I would have to assess it by the individual. If it was a young horse, or one that was still in training I would keep it in a snaffle. If however, it was an older horse who I was trying to re-teach direct reining I would look at other bits/methods. If and it's an IF the horse absolutely needed the curb while being taught this I would be very careful as to how I would teach direct reining. I think especially with bits it depends very heavily on the skill of the rider and the individual animal.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

TXhorseman said:


> Many people feel they must use a curb bit when riding a horse in Western tack. This is only true if you are showing and the rules require it.
> 
> You can ride one handed in a snaffle bit as easily as you can ride one handed in a curb bit. On the other hand, many people have done quite well riding with two hands while using a curb bit although the snaffle was designed more for this purpose. Ideally, you should be riding more with your body and less with you hands when using either type of bit.
> 
> ...


thanks for this - i will remember this next time
i was not aware that snaffle bits are good for using a single hand instead of 2 
i may have to re-train myself to do this

what i am mostly hearing from this is --- stick to the snaffle, learn how to use 1-hand instead of 2


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Incitatus32 said:


> Honestly while I argree with the above 100% I would have to assess it by the individual. If it was a young horse, or one that was still in training I would keep it in a snaffle. If however, it was an older horse who I was trying to re-teach direct reining I would look at other bits/methods. If and it's an IF the horse absolutely needed the curb while being taught this I would be very careful as to how I would teach direct reining. I think especially with bits it depends very heavily on the skill of the rider and the individual animal.


8-10 year old horse, that is trained, but has obediance issues

in another thread i was advised to use a riding crop/ dressage whip
the only way i can think to do that is to free up 1 hand
i thought looking into bits would be the way to go
sounds like i was completely wrong
also sounds like i am not using my current setup to it's full advantage

thank you


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

RE: needing 1 hand while carrying a crop or whip.
When using a crop, you have to be very organized and have great timing (well, you need great timing with all your cues and aids, natural or artificial). When using a crop, you carry it in one hand along with the rein. When needed, you bridge your reins in 1 hand for a moment while you apply the crop behind your leg. Then smoothly take the rein up again.

Now, the benefit of a dressage whip is that it is long enough to use without removing your hand from the rein. It sits diagonally down and back across your thigh. When applied , the wrist is used to tap along your thigh, so the lash flicks behind your calf. You have to be careful not to also tug the rein while applying the whip.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Unless the horse can and does _willingly _do everything you need them to do while riding one handed in a snaffle, then they are not ready to move up to a curb. If you are having trouble with stiffness or bracing or not following their nose, then they need to stay in a snaffle and get better training.

As TXhorseman said, there is no reason why a horse can't neck rein in a snaffle just as well as they do in a curb and, realistically, they _should _neck rein in a snaffle because they need to know how before they start wearing a curb.

There have been a great many times I've done ranch work on my finished horses in a plain old snaffle with no problems.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

karliejaye said:


> RE: needing 1 hand while carrying a crop or whip.
> When using a crop, you have to be very organized and have great timing (well, you need great timing with all your cues and aids, natural or artificial). When using a crop, you carry it in one hand along with the rein. When needed, you bridge your reins in 1 hand for a moment while you apply the crop behind your leg. Then smoothly take the rein up again.
> 
> Now, the benefit of a dressage whip is that it is long enough to use without removing your hand from the rein. It sits diagonally down and back across your thigh. When applied , the wrist is used to tap along your thigh, so the lash flicks behind your calf. You have to be careful not to also tug the rein while applying the whip.


i don't have a dressage whip, but it is easy enough to cut a switch of the right length
But she won't even let me mount with a switch in my hand
I have been trying to get her desensitized to it
But if i just barely touch her with it, she goes flying to the other side of me - it's crazy


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

smrobs said:


> Unless the horse can and does _willingly _do everything you need them to do while riding one handed in a snaffle, then they are not ready to move up to a curb. If you are having trouble with stiffness or bracing or not following their nose, then they need to stay in a snaffle and get better training.
> 
> As TXhorseman said, there is no reason why a horse can't neck rein in a snaffle just as well as they do in a curb and, realistically, they _should _neck rein in a snaffle because they need to know how before they start wearing a curb.
> 
> There have been a great many times I've done ranch work on my finished horses in a plain old snaffle with no problems.


Thanks smrobs - i believe you guys are right
I will stick to the snaffle and start working on using 1 hand instead of 2


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

fftopic:



karliejaye said:


> ... the benefit of a dressage whip is that it is long enough to use without removing your hand from the rein. It sits diagonally down and back across your thigh. When applied , the wrist is used to tap along your thigh, so the lash flicks behind your calf. You have to be careful not to also tug the rein while applying the whip.


Don't mean to derail this thread, but here goes haha  :

I just got a dressage whip, my first one, a $13 one so definitely not the best. I'm wondering if it should be stiffer.

The end is very thin and flexible like a fishing pole. Is that the way it is supposed to be, so it will work as you have described? 

I have used a training stick to tickle the right place at the right time. That is how I intend to use this dressage whip.

:hide:


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

anndankev said:


> fftopic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i am also interested in this
in case i can cut a switch off a tree and use it instead


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

My Grandma Hancock used switches from a willow tree, this was way back when.

My Mom stopped the first time she tried it, and left welts on my brother's legs.

Actually, that is one reason I am asking about this dressage whip I have. 

So I would think anyone using a switch, fishing pole, or dressage whip would need to take great care to only use it for a 'signal', nothing harsher.

Bits, they say, are only as harsh as the hands that hold them. 

The same should go for any tool used.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

anndankev said:


> My Grandma Hancock used switches from a willow tree, this was way back when.
> 
> My Mom stopped the first time she tried it, and left welts on my brother's legs.
> 
> ...


i am a fan of switches, they are effective
my daughter was getting a whooping from my wife one day for being rude and not using her manners (yes ma'am, no ma'am without the eye rolling)
probably her 20th whooping in a row
the wife asked her if she was ready to use her manners or if she would rather get another whooping
my daughter responded by putting her hands back on the couch and leaning forward 

that doesn't happen with switches

the purpose i intend to use it for is the "i am done with your shenannigans" kind of signal


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

smrobs said:


> Unless the horse can and does _willingly _do everything you need them to do while riding one handed in a snaffle, then they are not ready to move up to a curb. If you are having trouble with stiffness or bracing or not following their nose, then they need to stay in a snaffle and get better training...


I don't often disagree with smrobs, but I'll partially disagree here.

For a horse with turning issues, I think snaffles work better. I think a D-ring is optimum, but I currently use an O-ring with Mia for snaffle rides.

I do NOT think a horse needs to be great in a snaffle before using a curb, because a curb bit used properly is NOT a harsh bit at all. As a rule, curb bits are better at...well, curbing a horse. Curb means restrain. They are great for a horse who stretches their head out and tries to demand to go faster.

This thread has a lengthy discussion on WHY I believe this, along with a lot of conflicting views:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-hard-mouth-512826/

To summarize, I think the curb bit works well because it continues to apply pressure to the bars and tongue even when the horse has its head stretched out, and thus retains effectiveness.










However, they are less intuitive for a horse in lateral flexing. They can be used and work well if the horse already knows a leading rein well. They can be used two handed. But snaffles are a better design for that training.

I had excellent results from switching a spooky horse to a curb bit while both of us were very imperfect, but she already turned great...just wasn't fond of stopping.

I do think a bit with a solid mouthpiece - it can have independent sides, but not bend in the center (no folding) - gives a cleaner neck rein cue. The one I have below worked well for teaching neck reining:










All that said, pick the bit to match the training goal. For a horse with turning issues, that would normally be a snaffle.

Reinforcing a turn: 

Legs. Legs can give a cue, but also help enforce it. You can have the inside leg offer support to help keep the horse from falling in. You can kick the outside shoulder if the horse is not turning. Years ago, visiting a ranch, the horse bolted on me. I had his nose at my knee, and he wasn't turning and we were headed for a barbed wire fence. I grabbed the horn, leaned back and tried to break his shoulder - and that turned him.

Reins. I learned to ride in a sidepull, so bringing one rein out and pulling slightly in an outward tug always felt natural to me. It also seems to have felt natural to Mia, and Mia still turns best with an opening rein - no backward pull, just one hand moving the inside rein away from her, creating an opening for her to enter. A D-ring snaffle is very good for communicating with that style. I almost never pull back on either rein for a turn. For general purpose riding on a horse who started in a sidepull, that works well for us.

In fact, a sidepull might be an option to consider. If need be, you can brute force the horse's head sideways, and I never felt guilty about it using a sidepull when my horse just didn't feel like listening. They don't have much "Whoa" built into them, but they do give good lateral control.

Georgre Morris's 'Hunter Seat Equitation' has a great description of turns, with emphasis on using the legs to drive the horse while turning and including the shoulder in the turn. I always tended to turn the nose, but a good turn involves proper balance and use of shoulders and hind legs. Morris explains it far better than I could, although his two pages on it are fairly dense for a beginning rider.

"How Your Horse Wants You to Ride" has a much longer discussion on reins and turns. It is another excellent book. It is available from Amazon for $0.01 plus shipping:

How Your Horse Wants You to Ride: Starting Out, Starting Over: Gincy Self Bucklin: 9780764570995: Amazon.com: Books

Lots of good poop in that book on most any subject a newer rider might need to know.

FWIW, to work on training turns I used 3 pylons in a triangle. We'd enter the triangle, and I would decide when we entered where we would exit. As we exited, I'd decide on left or right. I would also then decide to either turn over 180 deg back into the triangle or loop around outside for some number of cones. Since I didn't know until we were at the turn, I called it the "Cones of Confusion"!

I set a cone up about 100 feet away. Every 3-4 turns, we'd trot to and turn around the far cone, because constant turning is hard work for a horse. That set-up forced her to listen to my cues instead of anticipate, and the turns were tight enough that decent balance during the turn was required.


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## hyperkalemic4 (Dec 8, 2014)

I think you need a snaffle and to use direct rein to get bend and turn, I always ride with spurs and on those young ones when I take the direct rein, I use the opposite spur to help them learn to move Now. When the rein well in a S. then you can go to a short shank snaffle.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

bsms said:


> I don't often disagree with smrobs, but I'll partially disagree here.
> 
> For a horse with turning issues, I think snaffles work better. I think a D-ring is optimum, but I currently use an O-ring with Mia for snaffle rides.
> 
> ...


that was a long read -- made it to the bottom of page 4
but i do like your posting style, it is thoughtful and informative



bsms said:


> To summarize, I think the curb bit works well because it continues to apply pressure to the bars and tongue even when the horse has its head stretched out, and thus retains effectiveness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i may consider switching to a curb when i decide to work on stopping
but for now, since snaffle appears to be ideal for turning, i will stick with it
she is very flexible laterally - she can kidney bean like a boxer (dog) when she wants, and still run away from where i point her



bsms said:


> I do think a bit with a solid mouthpiece - it can have independent sides, but not bend in the center (no folding) - gives a cleaner neck rein cue. The one I have below worked well for teaching neck reining:


side note - i recently learned that correction bits are named that because they are a bit for controlling vertical flexion (like a curb) while providing a method for lateral corrections ... 



bsms said:


> All that said, pick the bit to match the training goal. For a horse with turning issues, that would normally be a snaffle.
> 
> Reinforcing a turn:
> 
> Legs. Legs can give a cue, but also help enforce it. You can have the inside leg offer support to help keep the horse from falling in. You can kick the outside shoulder if the horse is not turning. Years ago, visiting a ranch, the horse bolted on me. I had his nose at my knee, and he wasn't turning and we were headed for a barbed wire fence. I grabbed the horn, leaned back and tried to break his shoulder - and that turned him.


i thought similarly until recently
now, i will not pull past a certain point, the horse is not going to do something to intentionally hurt itself (like running into a fence or running into trees)
the last 10-20 times when it has come down to - go where i want, or run into the tree's - she has slowed down and gone to where i want



bsms said:


> Reins. I learned to ride in a sidepull, so bringing one rein out and pulling slightly in an outward tug always felt natural to me. It also seems to have felt natural to Mia, and Mia still turns best with an opening rein - no backward pull, just one hand moving the inside rein away from her, creating an opening for her to enter. A D-ring snaffle is very good for communicating with that style. I almost never pull back on either rein for a turn. For general purpose riding on a horse who started in a sidepull, that works well for us.
> 
> In fact, a sidepull might be an option to consider. If need be, you can brute force the horse's head sideways, and I never felt guilty about it using a sidepull when my horse just didn't feel like listening. They don't have much "Whoa" built into them, but they do give good lateral control.


thanks for that - i will look into what a sidepull is and how to use it



bsms said:


> Georgre Morris's 'Hunter Seat Equitation' has a great description of turns, with emphasis on using the legs to drive the horse while turning and including the shoulder in the turn. I always tended to turn the nose, but a good turn involves proper balance and use of shoulders and hind legs. Morris explains it far better than I could, although his two pages on it are fairly dense for a beginning rider.
> 
> "How Your Horse Wants You to Ride" has a much longer discussion on reins and turns. It is another excellent book. It is available from Amazon for $0.01 plus shipping:
> 
> ...


that is an interesting thought
i have been working in areas that i know are her problem areas
there is a spot near the house where all the other horses hang out -- she doesn't want to leave -- we have conquered that area

now we are working on the "spooky corner"
once we beat that area -- we will go to the mid-areas where you can eaither turn towards the house, or away from the house towards the spooky corner


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

hyperkalemic4 said:


> I think you need a snaffle and to use direct rein to get bend and turn, I always ride with spurs and on those young ones when I take the direct rein, I use the opposite spur to help them learn to move Now. When the rein well in a S. then you can go to a short shank snaffle.


she does bend -- problem is that she bends right, and runs left
i thought looking into other bit options would provide some insight/alternatives

it provided very good insight -- but it seems i am already working with a good alternative

i may switch it up from a big O-ring to a D-ring snaffle

in another thread i am looking at other options for reins


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

jmike said:


> she does bend -- problem is that she bends right, and runs left
> i thought looking into other bit options would provide some insight/alternatives
> 
> it provided very good insight -- but it seems i am already working with a good alternative
> ...


Let me know if I misunderstand your statement. It sounds as though you are pulling the rein to get the horse to turn right, but the horse runs to the left.

If this is correct, it sounds as though the horse is "breaking at the withers". This is a term used to describe a horse that bends its neck but not its body when asked to turn.

This is usually the result to trying to pull a horse into a turn. The problem is often compounded when people do a lot of what is sometimes called "lateral flexion" where they sit on the horse and pull the horse's head one direction and then the other, sometimes all the way to their knee.

Traditional lateral flexion came in two forms. One was a slight bend at the poll (the first cervical joint between the skull and the atlas vertebra). The neck was not meant to bend, nor was the head to twist which would indicate that the next joint (the one between the atlas and axis) was rotating. Note that the head cannot flex laterally at the poll if the nose is either too high or if it is behind the vertical.

The other form of lateral flexion involved the bending of the whole spine as desired in a turn. Again, the head is not supposed to rotate. While a horse cannot technically bend laterally uniformly throughout its body because of the design differences of the bones in various portions of the spine, the image is that the horse is bent uniformly along the circumference of the circle. Therefore, the horse would be considered "straight" in the turn.

It may take tact to change the behavior of a horse with a well-established habit of breaking at the withers. The first thing to do is try to refrain from pulling the horse's head in the direction of the turn.

You want to get the horse accustomed to bending its body around your inside leg. One exercise that can help is to take the horse deep into the corners of an arena when negotiating the turn. Realize that a horse that is not accustomed to bending throughout the body may have tight muscles, so proceed cautiously and develop the necessary flexibility. Trying to rush the work may cause over stressing and require periods of recuperation. 

Trying turns using the method I described earlier in this thread should help develop better turns without undue stress. Too much force often leads to complications.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Back on the side track about dressage whips:

Yes, they need to be flexible. It is the flexion that allows them to bend around your leg and tap the horse.. And yes, because they are flexible they can be very very harsh if used incorrectly.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

TXhorseman said:


> Let me know if I misunderstand your statement. It sounds as though you are pulling the rein to get the horse to turn right, but the horse runs to the left.
> 
> If this is correct, it sounds as though the horse is "breaking at the withers". This is a term used to describe a horse that bends its neck but not its body when asked to turn.


sounds about right
turn her head/neck to the right - she leans/runs as close to left as she can, ends up being mostly straight ahead
she stops before she runs into the trees




TXhorseman said:


> This is usually the result to trying to pull a horse into a turn. The problem is often compounded when people do a lot of what is sometimes called "lateral flexion" where they sit on the horse and pull the horse's head one direction and then the other, sometimes all the way to their knee.
> 
> Traditional lateral flexion came in two forms. One was a slight bend at the poll (the first cervical joint between the skull and the atlas vertebra). The neck was not meant to bend, nor was the head to twist which would indicate that the next joint (the one between the atlas and axis) was rotating. Note that the head cannot flex laterally at the poll if the nose is either too high or if it is behind the vertical.
> 
> ...


thanks -- i know what you are talking about and i will give it a shot

but .... no turning the head/neck at all?
i do not pull her hard that way like i used to, i set it at an angle i expect is normal for an easy turn, and she does the rest


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

karliejaye said:


> Back on the side track about dressage whips:
> 
> Yes, they need to be flexible. It is the flexion that allows them to bend around your leg and tap the horse.. And yes, because they are flexible they can be very very harsh if used incorrectly.


Thanks


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

If you turn the way I suggest, many of the things you often hear or read about happen automatically. Think of your upper body as a single block of wood. If the eyes in your head are looking about 1/6th of the circle ahead so are imaginary eyes in your chest. If your shoulders stay perpendicular to your head, your arms and hands will rotate naturally. If your hands are near each other as they should be, the outside rein will touch the horse's neck -- neck reining. There might also be just the slightest touch of pressure on the inside rein. 

Your outside leg which has slipped back about an inch with your heel still down, is resting against the horse and should prevent its rear end from falling out of the turn. The inside leg stays in place, again resting naturally against the horse. This leg gives the horse's body something to bend around. 

As you rotate your body, a little extra pressure falls on the inside seat bone, but not enough to interfere with the horse's movement. The outside thigh will place a little extra pressure near the outside shoulder, but don't exaggerate this or the horse may become resistant. 

The horse should bend throughout its spine from head to tail. You should be looking between the horse's ears.

Begin this new way of turning at a walk so both you and the horse can stay relaxed and think about what is happening. Give yourself plenty of room in case the horse is too tense and fails to respond initially. Begin by asking for large circles and praise your horse when it responds. This will help the horse understand that it is responding correctly to this new way of turning. As the horse becomes accustomed to this, you can gradually make the circles smaller or try them at the same size while trotting. Experiment to see what works. Again, don't rush things. Both you and the horse are learning to communicate in a new, more subtle way. Be sure to stay as relaxed as possible so your horse can relax also.

If, at first, the horse has some trouble understanding that it is supposed to turn.You might try a smooth squeeze and release of your inside hand if you have light following contact and are holding the rein with your thumb on top and the figures wrapped lightly around the reins. Think of this as squeezing just one or two drops of water out of a wet sponge. 

If the horse still doesn't understand, you might try rotating your inside forearm to the side while keeping your elbow against your body. This should be done smoothly and act as only a hint of what you want. Any pressure applied by the inside rein should be accompanied by a release of an equal amount of pressure on the outside rein. The action should be brief and your hand return to its normal position as the horse begins to respond.

This last bit of advice is to be used only if the horse does not respond. Usually, it is not needed.

Once you and your horse develop this new way of communication, it should make little difference if you hold the reins in one hand or two. Some riders even begin to experiment with letting the reins hang on the horse's neck and steering with body alone.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> If you turn the way I suggest, many of the things you often hear or read about happen automatically. Think of your upper body as a single block of wood. If the eyes in your head are looking about 1/6th of the circle ahead so are imaginary eyes in your chest. If your shoulders stay perpendicular to your head, your arms and hands will rotate naturally. If your hands are near each other as they should be, the outside rein will touch the horse's neck -- neck reining....Both you and the horse are learning to communicate in a new, more subtle way. Be sure to stay as relaxed as possible so your horse can relax also.
> 
> If, at first, the horse has some trouble understanding that it is supposed to turn.You might try a smooth squeeze and release of your inside hand if you have light following contact and are holding the rein with your thumb on top and the figures wrapped lightly around the reins. Think of this as squeezing just one or two drops of water out of a wet sponge.
> 
> ...


I disagree with the above advice. Why?

In an Australian study of animal mimicry published in the 50s, the author made the comment that '_Scientific writing, like all good writing, should be clear, concise and euphonious - in that order_'.

First comes clarity. If you are not clear, you will not communicate. If you fail at communication, there was no reason to write.

Second comes concise. After achieving clarity, THEN strive to be concise. Don't waste time. (Note - that is not true when writing for pleasure reading).

Finally, if you have achieved clarity and conciseness, then try to make it sound pretty.

Those principles apply to communicating with a horse. First comes clarity. Only when the horse and rider are communicating with total, consistent clarity should one refine anything to make it more subtle or beautiful.

Let me use the example of neck reining with Mia, using my soft yacht rope reins.

When I used 8' split reins and let either end dangle down on either side, she picked up neck reining almost immediately, although she had been sloppy with one piece yacht rope reins. Why? When holding the leather split reins like that, a 4' long strip was left to run down her shoulder. If I moved my hand 6 inches left of her withers, the 4' of leather hanging against her right shoulder was moved 6 inches, so my cue caused a 4' leather strip to slide 6 inches up along her shoulder.

That never happened when we were just riding. It was very distinct and very easy for her to feel. A very distinct, easily felt cue that had only one meaning: CLEAR!

The picture below shows the set-up:








​
However, I don't like riding with split reins. How could I achieve the same clarity with yacht rope?

I eventually settled on this: I move my hand FORWARD about 6 inches, then to the left. She is used to the reins having a little slack and touching her withers, but the motion forward only happens when I'm about to give her a neck rein cue. In military terms, it becomes a preparatory command: '_Listen up! You are about to be ordered to do something!_" English riders can think of it as a 'half halt'...

If I then move my hand 6 inches left, the right side of the reins slides along her neck in a unique area. That spot is only touched doing neck reining. So when she feels the yacht rope THERE, right after it SLID FORWARD, she knows A) we are about to neck rein, and B) he wants to go left.

By giving my cue to neck rein that way, I am 100% consistent. And since the cue involves touching her in a way used ONLY for one meaning, she knows exactly what I want. For training purposes, we now have achieved accurate, consistent communication.

A very skilled rider, riding a well trained horse, using it for show purposes, can afford to refine the cue to something almost impossible to see. The horse, ridden in an arena, knows 'the game' and how to behave in that environment.

Most skilled riders also use leather reins. And leather split reins can be held in a way to give another set of accompanying cues that communicate clearly without needing the forward motion first.

But I am not a highly skilled rider. My horse will never be a highly trained horse. We don't ride in shows. And I like using the yacht rope reins because they are soft on my hands. By adjusting my cue, I have achieved 100% consistency and thus clarity in my communication: '_we are neck reining, now go left_'.

Applying this to turn cues in general:

There are a lot of reasons I turn my body, slightly or a lot, while riding. It is not fair of me to expect my horse to discern between those twists and a twist that I think means 'turn'. I turn my head and look other places with my eyes all the time. Darn it, I'm on a trail! I'm there for fun! I want to look around! And it is not fair of me to expect my horse to figure it all out when I use the same motion to mean 'turn left' as I use to look left while I want her to go straight.

The same with seat bones. More pressure on your left hip is great for an arena rider being judged. For me, it might mean I want to scratch the right side of my butt!

"_If, at first, the horse has some trouble understanding that it is supposed to turn.._."

If the horse doesn't understand, then at a minimum start with a clear, 100% consistent cue that always and only means one thing! Once the horse knows the obvious cue, you can use a subtle cue followed by the obvious one to teach the horse what the subtle cue means. We start learning math with counting, then addition, and gradually work our way up to trig or calculus or differential equations. We don't start at the top, and we should not expect our horses to either.

Some of us have no intention of ever getting to the top, in math or in riding. We need to use cues and riding techniques that match our level of ability and our horse's, and our goals.

But to be honest, what you are experiencing with your horse does not sound like a problem with the cue. It sounds like the problem of 'I don't want to'._ "If the horse is not turning and following it's nose as it should..."_

_ "In another thread I was advised to use a riding crop/ dressage whip_
_ The only way I can think to do that is to free up 1 hand"_

_ "She is very flexible laterally - she can kidney bean like a boxer (dog) when she wants, and still run away from where I point her"_

_ "she does bend -- problem is that she bends right, and runs left_"​Horses usually follow their nose. But from what I've seen, they always follow their shoulder.

You might want to consider one of these:








​ 
They generally come in either 3 or 4.5 foot lengths. Look for barrel racing whip or quirt or over/under...or make one out of a 6+ foot strip of leather. I have one that I attach to the right D-ring and loop through the left one. Mia being Mia, I use it about every other year and slap it against my leg instead of her skin.










Same idea, Aussie saddle:








​ 
It sits there, unnoticed by the horse unless I need it. But if I direct reined her nose to the left and she went right with her shoulder & body, I'd hold both reins with one hand, slip it out and smack her on the right shoulder. Not hard the first time. But if she still went right with her nose left, I'd hit her hard. Maybe she would buck. Maybe not. Mia isn't a bucker, although I have a bucking strap (aka grab strap in English riding) just in case. But a horse going right with its nose to the left is dangerous to both horse and rider.

Note: I've used a grab strap with my Australian saddle once in my life, but it sure helped me the one time Trooper tried to throw me. I've use the over/under maybe 3 times in 6 years. But there are some tools I like to have. I'd rather have something I don't need than need something I don't have. I settled on this arrangement because 99.9% of the time, I don't know it is there. 

All IMHO. Good luck!


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

You are certainly free to disagree with my methods bsms, and I'm not saying that my way is the only way to achieve success.

I can only say that what I suggest has worked with many different horses including two horses just this morning that people where fighting to control until I convinced them to calm down and try to direct their horses more subtly.

When dealing with tense situations it often helps to diffuse the tension before trying to influence the other party.

I have little worry about a horse that responds to my subtle cues misunderstanding if I turn to look at something while riding on a trail or even turn to talk to someone behind me. I do it all the time. Horses somehow seem to know when I'm talking to them and when I'm not. And I've ridden everything from purebred high school horses to unregistered mutts.

I once accompanied a church youth group on a trip to a dude ranch. A young wrangler helping on the trail rides seemed to be trying to impress the girls by attempting to get his horse to do a haunches pivot. He was pulling the reins and spurring his horse, but I never saw him get a good pivot.

Near the end of our stay, the number of youth wanting to ride dwindled, so that young wrangler was not needed. I ended up on the horse he had been riding. As an experiment before we left the corral, I shifted my weight slightly and applied a little leg pressure. The horse performed a beautiful pivot. I commented, "This horse sure responds nicely to light cues." The old wrangler in charge knew what I was referring to. He replied tersely: "Yeah, ol' Luke uses too much steel."


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Horses can be ridden with subtlety. Writing can be euphonious. But clarity must come first. A horse cannot obey what he do not understand. 

I would be surprised if jmike "uses too much steel". A horse with some spirit will resist being bullied, but insisting the horse go the same general direction as the nose isn't bullying.

"pulling the reins and spurring his horse" is NOT the cue for a pivot. In most cases, it is simply bad riding. In almost every case, acting in anger is bad riding.

Earlier this week, Mia did something she hadn't done in a year. She spooked and decided to turn and leave the area. One bump on the reins stopped her. Then I turned her back. I did not whip her and use a lot of iron to turn her back. I just gave her the normal cue for a tight turn - an opening rein plus a small pull on the inside rein, which is what we both understand as 'do a 180 turn and make it tight'.

She faced the scary mud puddle, then did a 180 without trying to leave. So I cued another 180. No iron - don't have any. I didn't rip her face off. I didn't slide out the whip and hit her. Just cued her again and she did an in place 180 and faced the mud puddle.

I waited with loose reins. After about 30 seconds, she snorted. She continued standing still. At about 1 minute, she moved one foot a few inches. She snorted again. I gave a kiss sound and a light squeeze. The kiss means walk, and the light squeeze means "I'm serious". She took some baby steps, I scratched her withers, then she walked past the mud puddle, keeping as much distance as she could given the path we were on. She gave the mud puddle the stink eye, but she didn't argue, prance, or fight. The rest of the ride was utterly uneventful.

However, had she bolted and not stopped, I would have applied any pressure needed to stop her. I was taught the stop cue is "Seat, Whoa, reins if needed". I prefer not needing the reins, but my horse has a vote in that. Her vote is not always what I would like.

Had she refused to turn, then I would have added leg to the rein cue. If she was still refusing, I'd have added the whip - on my leg. If need be, I'd have used it on her shoulder, but we've never reached that point.

I've incorporated some advice from Tom Roberts and James Fillis on how to get my horse to accept moving forward when nervous or scared, and it has worked very well with her. But what has always been true with her is that I need to give clear, unmistakable cues. On a trail ride with a Y ahead, that may just be one nudge with my left leg to let her know we're going to take the right branch, and then letting her do all the rest. 

How subtle one wants to be depends on your goals. Horses are capable of learning incredibly subtle cues.

But a horse may disobey for two reasons: He doesn't understand, or he doesn't want to obey. Particularly with backyard, recreational riders like myself, it is important to eliminate "I don't understand" before assuming it is "F you". Hence my signature line.

What I find in myself as a backyard, recreational rider is that I tend to either muddle my cues or give conflicting ones. Thus having a set of clear, distinct, unmistakable cues is important in my riding. I'm too inconsistent in my seat, balance and motion to assume the horse knows what I want from body position. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only rider with that problem.

Littauer argued beginning riders - and my level of riding will always be what he considered beginning - should not try to imitate great riders. Great riders, he said, are also great athletes who work in a focused manner, often 8+ hours a day. What works for them will not work for an aging, somewhat overweight, never very athletic rider who puts in 3 hours/week of riding - me. He taught 3 levels of control, with the beginning rider level using slack reins and minimal but clear cues. The problem wasn't that the horse wasn't capable of learning more, but that a rider like myself is not capable of giving more.

For jmike, these are a couple of passages from Roberts and Fillis that have helped me with Mia. They may or may not apply to you & your horse:

Roberts (Horse Control - The Young Horse):








​ 
Fillis, Breaking and Riding, English translation (1902):"The impressionability of a horse can be greatly diminished and modified by breaking. Custom establishes mutual confidence between horse and rider. If the animal has not been beaten, or violently forced up to the object of his alarm, and if the presence of his rider reassures him, instead of frightening him, he will soon become steady. It is a sound principle never to flog a horse which is frightened by some external object. We should, on the contrary, try to anticipate or remove the impression by "making much" of the animal.

I have already said that a horse has but little intelligence. He cannot reason, and has only memory. If he is beaten when an object suddenly comes before him and startles him, he will connect in his mind the object and the punishment. If he again sees the same object, he will expect the same punishment, his fear will become increased, and he will naturally try to escape all the more violently....

...My only advice about the management of nervous horses is to give them confidence by "making much of them." If we see in front of us an object which we know our horse will be afraid of, we should not force him to go up to it. Better let him at first go away from it, and then gently induce him to approach it, without bullying him too much. Work him in this way for several days, as long as may be necessary. Never bring him so close up to the object in question that he will escape or spin round ; because in this case we will be obliged to punish him ; not for his fear, but on account of his spinning round, which we should not tolerate at any time. In punishing him, we will confuse in his mind the fear of punishment and the fear caused by the object. In a word, with nervous horses we should use much gentleness, great patience, and no violence." (186)​Breaking and riding / - Biodiversity Heritage Library

I suspect TXhorseman, Fillis and I are in agreement on this last point. When a horse becomes agitated, they aren't learning much. If it is a nervous horse, then the agitation itself can reinforce fear, resentment and disobedience. Certain bits can be useful in training certain things, but a horse moves and obeys, if it does at all, though training. Any given bit only helps the training to progress, or not. Brute force ruins a horse, and so does no force. Striking a proper balance is called 'equine tact', and it is something that makes the difference between a rider and a horseman.


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## hyperkalemic4 (Dec 8, 2014)

(0)ring bits (D)ring bits and all snaffle bits with no checks are best for teaching reining because you pull the head around, when he reins well you can go on to a cheek bit. In horse world when showing a horse over 4 years old should be in a shank bit and one hand used on the reins. So teach that to be light and rein well in the snaffle and then move to a short cheek shank.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

I don't really think we are very far off on our basic approach to riding, bsms. It sounds as though you yourself generally use subtle cues.

In mentioning the old wrangler's comment about the use of "too much steel", I was not making a reference to jmike. This was a general comment to indicate that I am not alone in understanding that a light approach can often produce greater results than a more aggressive approach. Better known men who experienced the tasks of working cowboys such as Bill Dorrance and Buck Branneman have shared their experiences in this regard.

I don't feel my advice is only for advanced riders or great athletes. I have witnessed my methods work when employed by people who ride an hour a week or, often, less. A rider does not have to be "perfect" to employ them, though they may sometimes require modification in cases such as my student who had Parkinson's disease, had difficulty walking, and needed much help in mounting and dismounting.

All riding and training advice must be considered as general with the understanding that it may need to vary in specific circumstances. Since every horse and every rider are different and each can vary from day to day, we must always remember to use tact and feel. We need to experiment, observe the results, and adjust our approach accordingly.

We can look to horses themselves to get an idea of how to communicate with them. We should remember that they sometimes get a bit rough with one another and realize that we may -- especially where safety is involved -- need to do the same. However, horses rarely resort to overly aggressive measures. They generally communicate with subtle variations in ear placement, eye contact, and general body positioning.

I remember once when I was working a horse in an arena. Most of the horses at this location were loose in a large open area with hills and several large piles of hay. The majority of the horses were quietly eating. However, two mares were having quite a quarrel. They would back up ten to fifteen feet to kick at one another. There was very little contact, and neither horse seemed willing to stop. Finally, a big gelding left the hay pile and walked to a position about fifteen feet from these mares. I'm not sure what he said or how he said it, but the mares calmed down and walked off in two different directions.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

TXhorseman said:


> If you turn the way I suggest, many of the things you often hear or read about happen automatically. Think of your upper body as a single block of wood. If the eyes in your head are looking about 1/6th of the circle ahead so are imaginary eyes in your chest. If your shoulders stay perpendicular to your head, your arms and hands will rotate naturally. If your hands are near each other as they should be, the outside rein will touch the horse's neck -- neck reining. There might also be just the slightest touch of pressure on the inside rein.
> 
> Your outside leg which has slipped back about an inch with your heel still down, is resting against the horse and should prevent its rear end from falling out of the turn. The inside leg stays in place, again resting naturally against the horse. This leg gives the horse's body something to bend around.
> 
> ...


 
i tried this out on saturday when i had my lesson on my trainers western pleasure show horse

she understood it well, and i felt a little less stupid on her

thanks a ton for this --- next time i am on Dixie i will try it on her


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

I'm glad it worked for you, jmike.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

bsms said:


> I disagree with the above advice. Why?
> 
> In an Australian study of animal mimicry published in the 50s, the author made the comment that '_Scientific writing, like all good writing, should be clear, concise and euphonious - in that order_'.
> 
> ...


good advice, and i light reading your thought process
i can move my head around and look at the scenary without cueing as TXhorseman said
when i tried it out this weekend on a lesson horse, i aim my chest the direction i want to go, and when my shoulders rotate to face that direction, the horse would subtlely turn in that direction
the problem i was having with it was using romal reins and having 1 hand slightly forward so my shoulders/chest was never straight
if we were circling to the right around the arena, i had to use my left hand on the rein, since having that hand forward moved my should slightly to face to the right

i definitely know that she understands the cues, and often obeys those cues
the issue is "i don't want to" from the horse


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

TXhorseman said:


> All riding and training advice must be considered as general with the understanding that it may need to vary in specific circumstances. Since every horse and every rider are different and each can vary from day to day, we must always remember to use tact and feel. We need to experiment, observe the results, and adjust our approach accordingly.


this

i am taking in everyones advice and using it as well as i can
but i always keep in mind that it may vary slightly in application due to circumstances and attitude

my next lesson is at my house on my horses
so i will be trying to get them ready for this

but i do remember letting my neighbor ride her last time she was being a pain
he loped/galloped her for about 2 miles
she did not act up at all the next few times i was on her
she was a different horse
she has recently settled back into her ways


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