# Harnessing up----The Saddle



## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

This is a photo of the saddle placed properly. Idealy I would like the saddle to be straight up and down, but Pilgrims Big belly gets in the way, so I prefer angling the saddle a bit forwad instead of loosening the girth to make it perpendicular to the ground. The saddle is behind the withers and the girth does not interfear with the horses elbows.
You can see that the saddle has a tree and does not sit or press on the horses wither or spine. I would not recomend using a saddle without a tree.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

This saddle is too far forward, see how it is on his withers and the girth will most certainly interfear with his elbows, and the fatty area above the elbows.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I feel this saddle is too far behind the withers. It does not look too bad in the photo but I would move the saddle forward two inches. When I took this photo I thought I was taking a photo exagerating a way too far back saddle. Is is also hard to get the girth snug that far back on his belly. Maybe if Pilgrim was more fit this would be a good placement, but with his belly it just did not work for him.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Here is a photo of how the two belly bands are hooked up to the Shaft tugs and the backband that goes over the top of the saddle to the other shaft tug.


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## G8tdh0rse (Aug 14, 2012)

I can't quite tell how the second belly band attaches. Could you clarify a bit more on that one. Fantastic pictures. I really am apprecitating this thread.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

View attachment 113147


G8tdh0rse said:


> I can't quite tell how the second belly band attaches. Could you clarify a bit more on that one. Fantastic pictures. I really am apprecitating this thread.


Thanks, I am having fun doing it!

Okay the inner bellyband is the girth, it holds the saddle on the horse, it is fitted snug, not as tight as a riding girth, but snug enough that it doesn't slide around.*(YELLOW)* The saddle connects directly to the girth.

The outer girth holds the shafts, it is looser than the girth. It holds the shaft tugs in place, holds the shafts up, and keeps the shafts from moving up or down too much. *(PINK) *The saddle connects to the shaft tugs then to the outer belly band.

The two belly bands are usually held together by a keeper of some kind, to heep them from separating ang then pinching the horse.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Again a fat barreled horse.

First photo is okay placement, I feel the girth part is to far forward. It shouldn't interfear with the elbows but it looks too angled.

In the second photo I moved the saddle a bit forward to make the entire saddle more perpendicilar to the ground.

Third photo the saddle is okay but the girth is going to interfear with the elbows,

Forth photo saddle to far in back of withers. Again it looks okay in photos but the girth is too far back on his barrel to be tightened effectivly.

Fith photo Saddle too far back, girth too far forward, looks wonky.


Winner is photo # 2


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## G8tdh0rse (Aug 14, 2012)

OK I got it. My harness doesn't have anything to connect the outer belly band to the inner one. The next time I put the harness on her, I will do it like yours. I just got my harness and it came all to peices in a box. I am trying it on her and when I think I have it right, I will post pictures and you can critique it and tell me where I have it wrong. You have not posted the bridle or breeching install ments so I am guessing on that. My leather is still and new and doesn't hug her body well. She is a fat pony so my saddle fits like yours, at an angle.
Thank you so much for all of this.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I know what it is like to get a harness out of a box.
You are like , oh my I will never get all the pieces together, it is intimidating for sure.
I am going to the American driving Societies annual meeting this weekend and will, hopefully, get some more harness shots there.
I have started taking the breeching photos, so hopefully by Monday I will have the breeching part posted.
Can't wait to see your harness on your Pony.


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## goodhors (Jan 25, 2011)

While you are trying to be helpful, can you PLEASE use the correct terms for the harness parts?? There actually is no "bellyband" to be found on a harness!! There is a girth and an overgirth, that lay on the stomach. Or in the case of your appropriated article, a saddle girth and an outergirth.

Misnaming the parts of harness or making them up, leads to huge confusion in trying to discuss harness, parts to adjust or change, ordering new parts that fit!! You have a perfectly labeled illustration, but don't use the terms shown on it!

It is SO MUCH EASIER to discuss harness, harness fit, if everyone is speaking the same language, in using the same terms naming the parts of the harness.


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## G8tdh0rse (Aug 14, 2012)

Maybe a descriptive name and the official name. As a beginner, I have no idea what the overgirth is. I do know what part the belly band is.


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## goodhors (Jan 25, 2011)

G8tdh0rse said:


> Maybe a descriptive name and the official name. As a beginner, I have no idea what the overgirth is. I do know what part the belly band is.


Well, referring to her labeled illustration, please find what you think is the bellyband, and give me what the labeled name is. With choices I can guess, yet it is real easy to guess wrong on a part, thus adding greatly to the confusion when you ask for help or try to tell someone you have a problem with parts.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

This is awesome! If you get all the pictures up of all the different parts it should be a sticky so we can all learn how to harness up a horse without having to go searching through posts


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

goodhors said:


> While you are trying to be helpful, can you PLEASE use the correct terms for the harness parts?? There actually is no "bellyband" to be found on a harness!! There is a girth and an overgirth, that lay on the stomach. Or in the case of your appropriated article, a saddle girth and an outergirth.
> 
> Misnaming the parts of harness or making them up, leads to huge confusion in trying to discuss harness, parts to adjust or change, ordering new parts that fit!! You have a perfectly labeled illustration, but don't use the terms shown on it!
> 
> It is SO MUCH EASIER to discuss harness, harness fit, if everyone is speaking the same language, in using the same terms naming the parts of the harness.


Wow nice post.
I particularly like the part where "I am trying to help", 
OH and "making up names".

Unfortunatly we all come from different areas of the country or world.
There are several references to "belly bands" in some great books, Driving A Harness Horse, by Sallie Walrond. page 17 illistration and all. That is just the first one I picked up. Great book BTW.
Just because you have never heard of a belly band does not mean it is not called that in other parts of the world.
Try googling harness belly band.

I liken it to my identification classes in horticilture.
You have your botanical names, then you have your common names and there could be fifty different common names for the same tree all over the world.
So we had better know the latin, (botanical) names.
Unfortunatly there are no Latin names when refering to harness parts.

Kind of like the difference between reins and lines, blinkers, winkers and blinders, rugs and blankets, saddle pads and nimphas?, trailers and floats, heck even a girth and an over girth and a saddle girth and an outer girth. Which is right and which is wrong? 

Maybe part of learning the parts of the harness is realizing that there could be, and likely are, several names for each harness part.

Welcome to the real world we don't all speak the same language.


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## G8tdh0rse (Aug 14, 2012)

I think Taffy is doing a fine job. I really appreciate her taking the time with the detailed explanations and wonderful pictures.


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## goodhors (Jan 25, 2011)

The unfortunate part comes when you use an illustration, and then proceed to post using different terms a new Driving person can't find on the illustration. They have to guess what you are talking about. Easy to guess wrong. Belly part of the name, gives them a clue, but with a couple parts to choose from, they are left hanging as you continue with your photos. They would probably be totally lost if you were talking tugs, since there are at least two kinds on a neck collar harness. 

Oh wait, you can just give tugs a NEW name, so they NEVER will understand the post!

Yes, things come with various names for the same item on harness. Horticulture is a good example, because those common names are the devil for trying to ID a specific plant, tree or shrub. Latin is your common denominator to find the particular one you want, because latin stays the same regardless of who is selling the plant.

So back to CORRECT names for harness. Maybe you could add some of the "local" names to what the illustration you use, names for the specific part. Then reader can have a clue about what you are speaking of in harness parts. Just because a name is in a book, doesn't make it a correct term for everyone. You were not using illustrations from THAT book, with THAT term for the harness part so reader could put things together.

I have always found it best if Driving folks learn the correct names for parts on harness, vehicles from the beginning, so they can correctly discuss Driving things with other Driving folks. Going with a lot of local names, makes you sound ignorant in a discussion, often having to explain the term you use to the other person, so you BOTH understand what is being talked about. I would never use the term "shaves" in talking to Carriage Driving folks, they wouldn't know it means shafts to a buggy. My Grandfather used that term, but I don't hear it from any other Driving folks except VERY old Midwest Farmers. I had to relearn a LOT of harness names as we got deeper into Carriage Driving, because people didn't use those local names in other places, couldn't even GUESS what I was talking about! Who wants to sound ignorant? I changed the terms I used to the most common, correct Driving names, for easier discussions.

If you learn and use the more correct terms of harness, vehicles, they are going to stick better for discussions about Driving. Hard to relearn the common name from a unique local term in your head. Girth is more common than bellyband, since girths are found on all saddles, riding or driven, as an example. So using saddle girth, harness girth, overgirth, the horsey reader should more easily understand that any of them goes on the belly of the horse.




Taffy Clayton said:


> Wow nice post.
> I particularly like the part where "I am trying to help",
> OH and "making up names".
> 
> ...


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## G8tdh0rse (Aug 14, 2012)

Goodhors--I'm a newcomer to driving and I am doing fine with Taffy's names and descriptions. You are trying to make a big thing out of nothing and ruin a fine thread on harness. Of you do not like the way Taffy is doing it, then don't read it.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

goodhore, you are a bore, been over this before.

As far as again refering to the CORRECT names of harness parts, no one name is correct there are names of parts of the harness from different regions, HELLO, like common names. 

I do not assume that readers here are so stupid that they cannot figure out what I am talking about. Of coure if any one had asked for clarification, besides someone like you trying to start an argument, I would have been happy to explain. But you just jumped it with your accusations and attitude, trying to show... I do not know what... show off?

I am sorry if you are ignorant, but I knew exactly what shaves were.
Maybe because I am not so pompass as to think that only what I call something, is the correct name, because I listen and learn from everyone. You won't get far in life insisting that others are wrong and must conform to your way of thinking and speaking, I am sure wars have been fought over just such thinking.
You are just not even worth my time to talk to, get over yourself and get that burr out from where ever it is, and get a life.

I bought a used Smuckers Delux harness this weekend at the American Driving Society meeting in WI. The woman selling it, who was an upper level competitor, was very happy to tell me that the harness came with two *bellybands* of different sizes so it will fit a smaller horse. I had to smile to myself.

To everyone else, sorry about this digression, I have lots more photos, I will post tomorrow.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

I look forward to the other pictures! While you put it rather bluntly, I agree- there are many different names for each piece, and I think we can all figure out what a belly band is. I hope to get a driving harness some day that will fit Clem and for a reasonable price. (Hah... finding tack smaller than draft and bigger than horse is next to impossible, it seems.) Really, I wish I knew someone with a harness so I could try it out and know if it's something I'd like to pursue  Aah, well. We can't all have what we want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Shoebox said:


> I look forward to the other pictures! While you put it rather bluntly, I agree- there are many different names for each piece, and I think we can all figure out what a belly band is. I hope to get a driving harness some day that will fit Clem and for a reasonable price. (Hah... finding tack smaller than draft and bigger than horse is next to impossible, it seems.) Really, I wish I knew someone with a harness so I could try it out and know if it's something I'd like to pursue  Aah, well. We can't all have what we want.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
What is really funny is that if goodhrse had worded her first post with a minimal amount of diplomacy, I probably would have agreed that for the *purpose of this thread*, I should use the names on the diagram posted.
However I would never have agreed that there is only one correct name for every piece of harness, there are wrong names, but no one correct name. And as for making up names well that just PMO.

As for your harness, that size is often called, X-Large horse or Friesan size, they are out there. That is what my horse wears.

One of the lectures I went to last weekend was on buying a harness, and the lecturer said something appropriate to this thread.

*"Use what you have, till you get what you want"*


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

Hi Taffy, great info. Are you going to go thru the entire hitching up? I think it would make for a GREAT info thread that hopefully the moderators would keep in front so everyone can use it. Again, the pics are great and thank you so much for taking the time to put it all together. I know it is quite time consuming!

As for the millions of terms, I agree with goodhrs when they said 'who wants to be ignorant so learn the names of the parts correctly (or something like that) - they are right, who wants to be ignorant? 

That is why I personally try to make sure I know just about ALL of the names and nicknames for all of the parts and harness, and I try to adjust my 'vocabulary' to match who I'm talking to because there are so many variations depending on where you come from. 

I've been driving for over 20 years and I may not know it all, but I do know that if you limit yourself to only one part of the language, you will miss out on the entire meaning of the conversation (and quite possibly some opportunities to learn something new or make new friends).

So if it's okay with you Taffy, and everyone else, I say go ahead and use the terms interchangeably and let's make it a lesson. I personally have friends who come and visit once a year from overseas and the first time we stood over a horse and hitched him up, we almost had heart attacks laughing so hard at some of the names they called things versus what we call things - and I'm from Texas, so we have our own language on top of that! It was a great time and great memories were made.


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## goodhors (Jan 25, 2011)

Taffy, if I was selling you a harness, you can call the parts ANYTHING you want to! Customer is ALWAYS right!! If you call it a bellyband, cinch or girth, that part is EXACTLY what you called it, and I will also call it a bellyband, cinch or girth.

Obviously you have not "been called out" yet in a public setting for misnaming the equipment. Not fun, for you or others in the group, but DOES happen by some of the "perfectionists" among the Driving Clinicians. They are trying to make a point that we need to "speak a common language" by calling Driving things the same name in communication. You want to call it a bellyband, then you may get a conversation about being specific in your terms. May not happen, but I have seen it happen more than once by some big name Clinicians in Driving.

If you want to display your ignorance in front of everyone, works for me! You are pretty thin skinned, to get angry when someone points out a problem with your teaching methods. Also thin skin could be part of the issue when you got called for lifting the original posting from Camptown Harness. Did YOU ASK PERMISSION to take that article and post it here? Even with the author's name on it in this Internet age, that is commonly called stealing, taken without specific permission from the author to use their written information.

Don't worry about me trying to "help" you folks again. Won't happen because you don't wish to learn. So I won't point out the obvious mistakes, beyond saying Taffy might want to Spell Check your posts to remove the unintentional humor that keeps happening. Have fun Driving, try not to hurt yourselves.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Taffy Clayton said:


> What is really funny is that if goodhrse had worded her first post with a minimal amount of diplomacy, I probably would have agreed that for the *purpose of this thread*, I should use the names on the diagram posted.
> However I would never have agreed that there is only one correct name for every piece of harness, there are wrong names, but no one correct name. And as for making up names well that just PMO.
> 
> As for your harness, that size is often called, X-Large horse or Friesan size, they are out there. That is what my horse wears.
> ...



Aah! I wish you lived near me so I could try it on Clem! 

Keep going like you're doing. Goodhors is making a stink out of a trivial thing. I am 100% new and novice to driving - I am stalking this thread to learn more about it before I jump into it - and I am having no problems figuring out what you're talking about. While she has a point - As you said, for the purpose of the thread using the names on the diagram might be best - many people have said the way you are doing it is fine. Saying bellyband and posting a picture of what you're talking about is pretty obvious.  I look forward to more updates with pictures. Use whatever names you like. AS it was also pointed out, we can tun it into a lesson, and learn some of the common names in addition to the proper names!


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Hopefully I can Start the Braking System tomorrow, I have been trying to collect photos. I did not get too many at the ADS meeting, I hope to get lots of photos of several different equines at the National drive, Different sizes than my boys, Hopefully lots of minis and ponies. 
Then we can discuss the breeching system and all the different names of all the different parts of the harness. I cannot wait!!


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

OMG I'm cracking up - sorry, but now name calling? LOL!

Sorry, getting it together again - ok here is something I thought I'd share since we are currently on the subjects of the saddle, and saddles have turrets. Aaron Martin Harness has a great set of supplies, replacement parts and hardware if anyone is interested. I've shopped there to replace the turrets on top of my saddle because most of the harness I buy use nickel, and I prefer stainless steel (brass is not my favorite). So i just wanted to throw that out there to vouch for their business if anyone is ever looking for something particular. I've also bought biothane from them as well.

They are in Canada, but ship very cheap and fast anywhere in the US. I got my stuff within a week and the hardware was heavy, but the shipping was very reasonable despite the weight coming all the way from up yonder (LOL!). The catalog is worth having if you ask them to send you one.

Now a little off topic, I thought Smucker's had gone out of business - are they back again? Did someone buy them out and start anew?


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Moses Smucker retired and sold the buisness to his son, Danial. They no longer have a storefront like they had in PA, they only do phone and internet orders. There are about 6 retail outlets that sell Smuckers harness throughout USA and Canada, and it still is made the same quality as before it seems.

Clippityclop Thanks for the tip on Aaron Martin Harness Ltd, nice store.
Here is the like for anyone.
Aaron Martin Harness | Harness & Supplies for Horse, Dairy & Pet


Something great I learned at the ADS meeting.
After cleaning and polishing your harness, put it in "Spacebags" wraped in a cotton sheet and then vaccuum out the air and your harness brass will stay polished, even brass, for up to two weeks.

I also heard from someone not affiliated with horses that "Spacebags" will kill mold if your harness is moldy. I have to check that out. I have a moldy harness that I just can't get the smell out of.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Taffy, I can see how that would work... If there isn't any air in the bag, the mold can't very well grow! I would guess it will kill the mold, and then once you give it another good clean to get all the dead mold off it would be mold free! A good polish with some leather conditioner and it might be good as new. Can't hurt to try it!


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I Hope so, I was very lax to keep the harness where I did I thought it was safe hanging, but with this horrid heat this summer it was not, and now I am paying the price.

I am going to try the spacebags for mold for 2 weeks and see what happens.

I have heard of people storing their harness (long Term) in spacebags, but I think that the leather needs to breath, so I don't think I would use them for long term storage.


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## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

Goodhors. I'm sorry, but you are out of line in attacking Taffy for what YOU think is "made up" or "incorrect terms". I googled "names of harness parts" and as you can see by these three different sites they all mention BELLY BAND. 

Glossary

Harness Parts

Stitch 'n Hitch - Single Buggy Harness


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## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

Oh and for mold and mildew on leather I use a 6 parts water to 1 part white vinegar. Wipe is down with a sponge and then put out in the sun. I have yet to have the mold come back and the vinegar takes the smell away.


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## G8tdh0rse (Aug 14, 2012)

I think we are digressing here, not that it isn't nice to learn about mold and prevention but how about a thread with that title so folks wanting to learn that can find it. I'm still want learn about the saddle. I have seen hard ridgid saddles and soft formless ones. What are the pros and cons of each type. What do the funny furry dots do on the inside of the saddle. How ever does one clean them of swea? Do we need a saddle pad? Carry on TAffy, inquiring learners want to kn ow.


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

I had a harness that had a saddle with too much padding on it - it was TALL when I put it on my very round horse, but looked good on my older gelding who was a little more shallow behind the shoulders. I have another harness with a very flat saddle and I use a pad with it. The felts on the bottom, I believe, are to cover the rivets that were used to make the saddle, so they don't irritate the horse if you don't use a pad. How to clean them? I use a saddle soap that lathers, and a toothbrush to get around those rivets underneath. And lots of elbow grease - it is easier to use a thin pad, that is for sure.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

G8tdh0rse said:


> I think we are digressing here, not that it isn't nice to learn about mold and prevention but how about a thread with that title so folks wanting to learn that can find it. I'm still want learn about the saddle. I have seen hard ridgid saddles and soft formless ones. What are the pros and cons of each type. What do the funny furry dots do on the inside of the saddle. How ever does one clean them of swea? Do we need a saddle pad? Carry on TAffy, inquiring learners want to kn ow.


 
It is deffinatly better to have a saddle that has a tree in it. Just like a riding saddle it needs to fit the horse. 
While a saddle without a tree might fit your rolly polly horse now but not when he gets older and he looses nuscle and fat along the spine. You deffinatly do not want the saddle sitting on the horse's back bone.
The lecturer I listened to at the ADS meeting said you can *carefully and slightly *bend the tree in your harness saddle.

*Personally* I like using a saddle pad. Although your harness should fit without one, but I think a pad is more comfy for the horse, saves on harness cleaning, and I think it saves the breaking down of the harnesses own padding. The only time I do not use a pad on the saddle and the breast collar is showing in the ring.
I have both the fleece pads and the Gator pads, they are a synthetic.
I *personally* think the fleece are great and 1/3 the price of the gator pads. The fleece need to be washed more often while the gator pads you just wipe off. I would get the breast collar pads and use them under the saddle if it will fit, they are longer and come down the sides farther on your saddle.


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## G8tdh0rse (Aug 14, 2012)

*saddle fit on my pony*

My pony is fat and round. She is 13.2. Here is my saddle. What do you think of the fit.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I could actually see the saddle better on the breast collar thread, but this gives a different view. I like how much padding it has on it and it is well above the spine. Your saddle is a gig saddle and it distributes the weight of the shafts all along the saddle not just the top, more comfy for your pony.

The tugs will probably need to be lowered to accomidate the shafts, but that comes later.

*So far so good !!!*


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## G8tdh0rse (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks, I know the tugs are too high, that is just how it came. There is a lot of adjustment to make it lower


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