# my horse shut down!



## Teller (Jul 30, 2015)

HI all,

If you guys remember I was having a problem with my trainer for my new 5 year old horse, she is aggressive rough etc. had a talk w/her she stopped smacking him, pulling on lead, etc. yet I stuck with her. I now regret it bigtime!

The last two lessons I had w/her my horse wouldn't move forward into the trot, so she suggested I hit him with the crop and kick him basically fight him to go forward. He got even worse, shaking head up and down back and forth, turning to look at me. What should of been done is stopped him, corrected it had him make small circle or back him up and begin again. Yet i followed her advice, she's my trainer was in the moment.

Today, after two very bad lessons I decided to go work on him on my own. He completely shut down. Wouldn't move forward to walk nothing, ears straight back, and backed me up into a fence. I had to do an emergency dismount.

I'm beyond aggrivated to say the least, a week ago I had him on a 4 hour trail, he was listening, id' taught him some stuff. I had to grab another trainer to help me. She lunged him calmly, calmed him down, and than proceeded to try to ride him in the round pen. He'd stop walking, wouldnt' walk, wouldn't turn wouldnt' do anything. She said he shut down, he's so apprehensive and nervous. He's all screwed up, what happened. So I told her.

She suggested she ride him 3x this week while I do ground work and we go back to square one again. The owner of the barn wouldnt' admit it was her trainer that screwed him up. She said well it's your fault, you were doing all this stuff w/him trail rides etc. I said he loved it, did great. I had him transitioning into trot last week, than I had two very bad intense lessons with your trainer and here we are!

So, do we all agree w/letting trainer ride him to get him to even walk and help calm him before I try to mount him again?

It's such a shame, I knew in my gut she was the wrong person. Yet I didnt' listen to that little voice inside my head. Now i have a screwed up horse, hopefully it's just temporary.


----------



## Goldilocks (Jan 30, 2015)

Oh my lord. Get the vet to this horse. A horse who has been trained won't just stop going forward. He needs to get looked at, he either has a bad back problem, tooth problem, gut problem or tack problem. 

This is not a trainer issue.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

If he lunges fine, maybe there's a problem with the tack.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Goldilocks said:


> Oh my lord. Get the vet to this horse. A horse who has been trained won't just stop going forward. He needs to get looked at, he either has a bad back problem, tooth problem, gut problem or tack problem.
> 
> This is not a trainer issue.


Could be health related. Could be from trying messed up suggestions.

If he is otherwise acting well, I wouldn't panic.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, lets have the pain disclaimer, and make sure that tack fits and horse has no pain issue.
Once that has been ruled out, BACKING a horse, that balks, IS THE WRONG thing to do. 
If a horse (pain issue ruled out), succeeds in balking (ie, looses forward ), the next escalation can either be that horse going up, or running backwards
Just because he rode on a trail ride , with other horses means nothing. Many horses will happily go along with other horses, but shut down, if they are spoiled, when asked to do anything on their own.
I did not see your trainer ride, but I see the possibility of a horse that has taken the proverbial mile, after getting away with refusing forward, whenever it suited that horse
I assume you ruled out all pain issues, and if that is the case, better believe I get that forward, when a horse tries to balk-not circles, certainly not backing up, but forward.
yes, this horse needs to be ridden by someone that can assess this horse, the either go right back to ground work and fill in holes, or make the horse a believer that balking is just not allowed. after all pain issues, of course, have been ruled out


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Rule out pain/ tack problems

Given the problems with the trainer I would suggest the horse has trust issues and unfortunately he associates you with the problem. 

Go back several steps. Lunge. Pat. Brush. Talk. Play music. 

When you get on, for a couple of weeks don't ask for much. Get him walking where you want then walk over poles. When you feel that is ok start trotting. If he is playing up you must keep calm, keep talking and try bring him to calm walk (always assuming he's not putting you in danger - in which case you may want someone on lunge-rope while you ride, don't let then use the whip on him, you are the one giving him directions they are just backup). 

Yelling, jabbing, hitting is not going to sort the horse, it has been part of the problem (and I forget why the trainer treated your horse so badly in the first place)

You need him going forward easily and responding to basic bend, turn, stop, start commands. You wont be able to do anything much else till this is sorted.

I hope the new trainer will keep you on and help out. You are better of on your own than with the first one.

I hope your horse comes right


----------



## Teller (Jul 30, 2015)

His saddle was fitted for him, had saddle guy come down and actually measure him for it. Rest of tack is fine and he had seen vet previously and is very healthy. The issue is, unfortunately as I stated 3 really bad training session with an over aggressive trainer, and for a green horse who was not going forward using the crop to hit him, kicking alot etc not the way to go. Trainer already rode him and accessed. Assessment was he is shut down, and we have to go slow now to get him back w/her riding him. Not me, so he doesnt' take it out on me. He was fine prior to these sessions with other trainer. I had him in the same ring on my own doing fine.

It's hard letting someone else ride him, yet for now I'm guessing it is the right thing to do. Clearly I did drop the other trainer.


----------



## Teller (Jul 30, 2015)

I just saw the last response. Yes you are right he associated all of it with me. Which makes sense I was the one riding him and doing what the trainer said. I kept asking isn't there a better way we need to correct him. She said no push forward, more leg, kick him hard, use that crop dont let him get away with it.

Against my better judgement I did all of it. Now i have this mess. It's ultimately my fault. He's my horse, I knew deep down the approach was wrong, yet ignored my instincts. So now we slid all the way back to day one, or further in my opinion. The new trainer who rode him said he's so apprehensive now, he's afraid to have anyone on his back. H'es all mixed up and confused.

What a shame. Live and learn I guess. I feel bad for him.


----------



## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Im with smilie on this one. Backing (in my opinions) is one of the worst evasions to deal with. Leg on and driving aids do sometimes work, but often will send the horse farther backwards. You can have a person on the ground with a whip driving the horse forward when this occurs, but this can be dangerous for both of you if the horse is not used to being lunged with a rider aboard. 
From a person who has had her horse moonwalk from X-K in the middle of a dressage test, and has been at her wits end- I tell you, this needs to get nipped in the bud asap. After the show the judged had a discussion time and she gave me the advice that as he backs- give him cues to leg yield. Send him almost into a turn on the haunches. This is significantly more difficult than backing and I am pleased to say it worked- Although I had the misfortune of trying out the method the next day when the Idiot decided to put his dancing pants on right at X, halt, Salute. By test three he took one step back, thought better of it then trotted off.

The important thing with whatever training you do is that the horse understands right away what the correction is and that the release that follows is very clear. It is a good idea to have a pair of eyes on the ground as you school your horse through this as it will center your mind and be a good reminder when you inadvertently tug on reins, close your hips too much or give unclear directions. 
good luck!


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Just because a saddle fitter came out doesn't always necessarily mean that the tack fits properly. Horses change, mistakes are made.

If it were my horse, I'd be using all resources to completely rule out all pain issues before focusing on other causes. Namely, you have a forum chock full of experts, and people who have a clue, and others that are learning. 

I would post pictures, video, provide diet information, detailed behavior information. You're being quite vague. _How_ is the horse refusing to go forward, ears back and backing up may not be the full story. What are _you_ doing when the horse does that? What made the lessons_ bad _specifically_? What makes this new trainer different? When did this behavior start?
_


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

First, I want to know exactly what your hands are doing when this horse loses his impulsion. Are the reins loose or are they giving him direction or ??? Most green horses lose 'forward' because of too much rein use or improper rein use -- not aggressive whip or leg use.

When this horse went forward OK before, was it with other horses or by himself? Somehthing is not exactly adding up here.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If the horse was fine with a 4 hour ride outside then I would say you could rule out pain. 

I agree with Cherie in that things are just not adding up. 

Some horses, when continuously ridden in an arena will shut down especially if it is all the same with little variation or fun.


----------



## Teller (Jul 30, 2015)

HI ok, here are all the details..

Horse came in 4 weeks ago yesterday. He is a 5 year old standardbred, very well maintained, cared for, yet not exercised. 

He's been vet checked, his feet are great, just had trim, shots, teeth floated.

He went through an adjustment period, I had two trainers to start (was too much for him) he was nipping at me, at trainers. I told everyone please no more lessons it's too soon, let me get to know my horse. Him and I began, simple stuff halt, back up, downward transitions bc he's fast! He was a really good boy, stopping nipping, would greet me at gate. I was soo happy! We started with small trail rides and built up to long one almost 4 hours because we got lost, even brought him to a bbq for Labor Day. He was sweet as pie, love this boy!

Than I decided ok time to start lessons again, he had adjusted somewhat, seemed happy. He was doing everything I was asking of him and in the ring also.

So, trainer original one I took lessons w/before i bought him she had been pulling yanking on his lead chain, smacking him if he even moved a tiny bit. Was ridiculous, he was becoming head shy. I pulled her aside said no more he's my horse your the trainer I do not want you touching him at all!

We had lessons in front ring, when he didn't want to go forward she instructed me to use the crop or dressage whip and hit him, kick him, etc. the more I did the worse he became. I said there has to be another way to correct this. He was being stubborn somewhat. Yet she said i'm telling you trust me this is the way to go. It got so intense, his head was flaring all over he actually hit me in the head with his head at one point i'm sure by accident. I had to lunge him after both lessons (said her) because he was so bad and disrespectful to me. There were exactly 3 lessons that were insane. Yet she said you can't give up, keep pushing forward. Get mad, hit him etc.

I knew in my gut this was not the right thing to do, I said why dont' I just stop calm him, make him circle as a correction and than begin again. She said no.

So, that's where we are, the next day after the last lesson I tacked him up, went to get on him his ears went back, I could feel the apprehension and he was just a hot mess. He went backwards right away, refused to even walk. the more I'd ask him to walk, loose rein, etc he'd back me up. He backed me up right into a fence and that's when I had to jump off.

The other trainer is very kind gentle person. She got on him after we lunged him and said he's messed up very apprehensive scared etc.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Okay now that doesn't sound like pain to me, just hyped up horse.
So in that session of using the whip on him (did you also use your legs in tandem or just the whip?) he learned he doesn't have to listen to your cue to go forward and instead decided he'd like to go backwards to either convince you to get off of him or because he doesn't want to work.

There's a difference in how you ask a balky horse to move forward. Your idea of stopping (stopping from him already at a halt didn't make sense to me, you mean stopped the forward cue?) and circling him will also create more problems as he still isn't moving forward just every other direction other than where you'd like him to go.

Has this new trainer ridden him yet? Did she get him to move forward?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, the horse understands cues to move forward, right, or is this green colt never ridden before?
If that horse understands forward, does not have a pain issue, yet balks, you have to make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard, and follow the', 'be as gentle with a horse as possible, but Also as firm as needed, to make him a good citizen
Of course you never correct a horse in anger, no do you correct a horse that does not understand a cue in the first place-you teach him,the correct response, by the age old pressure and release from pressure, and rewarding any slight try.
However, if a horse balks, refuses to move, and truly has no pain issue, you use what is needed to get that forward.In that regard, I agree with your trainer. Usually, a horse starts to run backwards, after he first has learned that he can refuse to go forward. In other words, little things are let slip, until he takes the proverbial mile
Perhaps this trainer is abusive, as I neither saw your horse and how it reacted, or the correction, but I also know that a horse that is just apprehensive, having harsh methods used,when they need not have been, will be over reactive, up tight, ect, and t not balk.
If your horse was 'fine' before, why take lessons from this trainer?
My horses don't balk, because they never learn that habit in the first place. However, if I had a spoiled horse that balks, I would use whatever it took to get that forward.
Cheri suggested over and under with some heavy harness reins, and one can also use a crop, or legs backed up with spurs. It is also a good thing to dis engage hips, on some horses that balk, as when they are pushed, they might explode into bucking
Sorry, I don't see that association with you, as an excuse. The horse might well have your number. I see a horse that has become spoiled, unless he has a pain issue, or is not trained enough to understand 'forward'
If that is the case ( not trained), then go back to lunging or ground driving, but get that compliance to forward, versus balking and running backwards, as the horse is well on the way to becoming dangerous, JMO


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just read additional info, and i see a horse , as I first suspected, that is both lacking in training, and has learned to challenge the rider.
I think you are viewing him a bit through rose coloured glasses, reading in between the lines, from this and your other post
I also asked, if you trail rode him alone. Many horses will happily ride along with other horses, not asked to really do anything except tag along, with that rider being more of a passenger.Still waiting for that answer also.


----------



## Teller (Jul 30, 2015)

Hi,

I"m not viewing him through rose colored glasses at all. The trainer screwed him up with her aggressive advice that i stupidly followed. New trainer is sweet, and very gentle. She works with special needs ppl at my stable. My horse isn't trained, yet I taught him the basics and verbal ques.

I've been on small trail rides alone with him and the big one with one other horse, did great. this was all before the two or three super bad lessons. I also took him on labor day to my families house two miles away, I rode him there in the street he was great. again before the 3 bad lessons.

So, today the new trainer got on him, took her time with him he was a little better... she got him to walk forward, no ears back, yet still apprehensive she said. He was waiting to get hit. She did not use whips or kicking. She got him to move forward off leg que I taught him.

So, I can't ride him until she has him moving forward into trot. Than she suggested that we begin on lunge line bc he associates me with the whips hitting etc.

I"m not going to give up on him, no way. Yet i know what I did wrong and now we are trying to correct it. I just found out today the other trainer is being fired. pretty funny huh.. i can't begin to know why


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

So happy you and your horse found a suitable trainer.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Glad things are working out with the new trainer. So, if he responded to leg cues, why then did he ever balk in the first place? Certainly, one always uses the lightest cue first, before ever upping the anti. Did he move forward, including into he trot, with just leg cues? If so, then certainly you should never have gone to the 'demand' mode , before having used the 'asking' mode
ALSO , if he is not yet trained, then you never should have taken him on a trail ride, because it is then like riding without brakes or steering, and you were lucky to have had those rides prove un eventful, as I would never think of riding a horse out, until I had good basics on him.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, he is a standardbred. Was he harness raced?
How much actual re training under saddle did he have, as a harness horse certainly won't know leg cues.
Was he a rescue? Reason I ask, many rescues are very compliant at first, because they are often under weight, thus all energy is spent just with daily living.
Once good food has that horse picking up in condition, the 'true' horse comes out. 
Maybe all of this is not a concern, if the new trainer is able to work him through stuff


----------



## Teller (Jul 30, 2015)

hi he was harnass raced, he was not a rescue..privately owned. They paid 140k for him, yet he only won 3 races didn't like racing.. So all she did was trail ride him during the week, he's great on trails. I taught him halt, he had a 20 second delay when i got him  yet now he stops on a dime.

I think that this trainer the old one, she was the one who would hit him etc. she was standing in the middle of the ring. I"m not sure why he did it to begin with. I found it odd. Which is why I said to her ok how do we fix this circle him? she responded with no kick him hard, hit him hard etc.

he is getting fed well and putting weight on since I got him. he's just been sitting out at pasture for quite sometime prior to me getting him. so he had like zero muscle. He's already looking better.

The trainer was so very wrong, yet he can be strong willed at times. He's a confident horse or was. Now he's confused and jaded my current trainer said. He's sensitive, reminds me of a thoroughbred. His skins sensitive, he's sensitive.

Today I just lunged him, he did fine, than we took a walk I groomed him and tacked him up for her.

I guess w/a green horse who at best had maybe 15 hours under saddle using the other trainers aggressive approach was nightmarish for him.

It is a shame, I felt really confident with him the past week and a half prior to this. I could tell that we were figuring it out together, he was trusting me and I him it was growing. He'd greet me at gate with his little whinny reach out so i could kiss him. Today nothing, nada. wouldn't even come up to me when i approached his paddock.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, he was trail ridden quite a bit and the 15 hours is 'formal training', but not including trail riding hours?
Don't be discouraged, because three bad lessons will not be the end of any future connection. Just start over with being both kind and fair, yet firm, giving him clear boundaries,as that is what makes a horse feel secure


----------



## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I would love to see a video of you riding a horse (not this horse). I would love to see a video of this horse being ridden as well. 

In one of your posts you said, "..he's not trained.." and that could very well be all of it. A horse trained to drive in harness needs to be retrained for riding. That said, you also said he went out on trail rides...

So my question is two fold. Where is he in his training under saddle? Where are you in your training in the saddle? 

I do not think this is a case of bonding and associating you with bad stuff and all that rubbish. I think this is a combination of a green rider and a green horse being a bad color combination (and maybe trainers who think they know more than they do!). 

If this is a green horse who is not going forward he needs someone to get with him who really knows what they are doing. I do not think that is you. 

I think this horse needs a real trainer riding him and training him (going from harness racing to riding is a large difference physically and mentally for the horse). I think you need riding lessons on a horse that is trained and tolerant. As Cherie said, where were your hands and what were they doing? 

I want to know more.. where were your hands and where was your seat and your body when the shenanigans started. Most green riders get scared and do the exact wrong thing when the horse starts to misbehave. 

Videos please.. show us. Without those, none of this makes ANY sense.


----------



## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Just read the 15 hours thing. He needs to be sent out to a trainer for 90 days.. at least.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Here's the OP's introduction which includes some details about her horse/riding history:

http://www.horseforum.com/meet-community/hi-all-607994/

What does the previous owner have to say about him?


----------



## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks! That explains a LOT. The horse needs to be trained and the owner is not up to speed on being a trainer. 

I stand by my suggestion. Find a good, reputable trainer and send the horse out for 90 days while continuing challenging lessons on a school horse. Before you get your horse back from the Trainer, go out with your riding instructor and ride your horse there (if the trainer allows it) with the instructor and trainer looking on. Decide as a joint effort if your skills and the horse's training are enough for your to take him home OR take another month of lessons and another month of your horse at the trainer. 

That is not the least expensive option but it certainly would be the best option to give the horse and the new owner the best chance of a long term relationship.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I have to agree, while we can't tell if the trainer was "too harsh" as we weren't there it sounds like she had the right approach as opposed to babying him. Backing a horse that won't go then getting off? You just taught him he can do what he wants.

When a horse balks you do need to MAKE them go, even if it's not always the "ideal" approach.


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

What lines is he from? What is his registered name? Some standardbreds are super sensitive. I have a mare and a gelding who have sensitive skin its not a big deal and I don't treat them any differently than any other horse. In the summer, if they are not muddy, I skip the hard brush and only use the soft one thats about it. Some of them also are perceptive to their owners/riders. I have a gelding who is very tuned in to me when I ride. That said he can still be a wienie who needs to be corrected. I have had some standardbreds that hold a grudge; however, it has taken a who lot more than three bad lessons and a whole lot more force that was applied here. They are also very, very clear about how they feel in that situation. Certain lines are more likely to hold a grudge. 

I think you have to find a trainer that you are comfortable with. Not because the trainer is horrible, but because you are not comfortable with their methods. Horses off the track (particularly standardbreds) are treated with a business like method. Its firm but gentle (most of the time). I think you need to find someone who is familiar with the breed or with retraining them. Sending him for 90 days of training won't help you ride your horse unless you are taking a weekly lesson as part of that training. You both need to learn how to work with each other and the first step is finding a trainer you trust.


----------



## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> *When a horse balks you do need to MAKE them go, even if it's not always the "ideal" approach.*



THIS THIS THIS a thousand times THIS.


----------



## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

I did not read all the replies, but my first thought aside from pain(which has already been mentioned) is the 4 hour trail ride you went on. In my experience, a green horse can easily be soured by a heavy work load right off the bat. Even if your trail ride was only walking, the young, green, unconditioned horse will see it as work. It is quite possible that your horse is evading (backing or balking) because you over did it on the trail ride. Did all his problems start before or after your longest ride? Look at it this way-you decide to train for a marathon. Is it more likely that you succeed by starting slow and working your way up or by running 20 miles on your first day of training? If you wake up the next day and cant move you would probably think "What was I thinking? I'm not doing that again!" and your training would never go any farther than that!


----------



## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

Teller said:


> I guess w/a green horse who at best had maybe 15 hours under saddle using the other trainers aggressive approach was nightmarish for him.
> 
> 
> Teller said:
> ...


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Elana said:


> I would love to see a video of you riding a horse (not this horse). I would love to see a video of this horse being ridden as well.
> 
> In one of your posts you said, "..he's not trained.." and that could very well be all of it. A horse trained to drive in harness needs to be retrained for riding. That said, you also said he went out on trail rides...
> 
> ...



I agree that nothing really makes sense here, and I also want to know, an did aSK, how much riding has he had, being re trained from harness work?
At one point, you say 15 hours, but then you state that the old owner just trail rode this horse> So, did he have any training under saddle, far as getting leg cues ect, or did he just pack that old owner, with a group of other horses?
You say he used to bite, and can be stubborn. In another post, he would not stand to be washed, and you were worried about any correction
Also suggested a real trainer, as through tis entire thread, it seemed more like the blind leading the blind!

I also asked for that video, as the 'waters' are very murky!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Just sounds to me like a horse that's been pushed too hard, too fast and has downed tools and said he's had enough
Horses like this need to take things slowly, baby steps, make sure they've fully absorbed step A before going on to Step B
They usually do better hacking out quietly for a few months and more, you can do a lot of schooling work that way without them betting bored stupid in a ring
If his stress levels have been high I'd also put him on a course of ulcer treatment.


----------



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Never mind. I read something wrong.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Just sounds to me like a horse that's been pushed too hard, too fast and has downed tools and said he's had enough
> Horses like this need to take things slowly, baby steps, make sure they've fully absorbed step A before going on to Step B
> They usually do better hacking out quietly for a few months and more, you can do a lot of schooling work that way without them betting bored stupid in a ring
> If his stress levels have been high I'd also put him on a course of ulcer treatment.


Maybe, but could also be a horse that has learned to test the rider.
I don't get a horse with only 15 hours of saddle time, being trail ridden, at least, not with that rider being any more than a passenger
I suspect a horse, that ,yes, lacks training under saddle, but that has been allowed to just do nothing more than amble along on a trail, for way more than 15 hours.
He was then asked to actually do something, and learned to balk, then accelerate that balking to running backwards.
Yes, he does need to go back to basics, but he also need to be handled and ridden by someone that knows what they are doing, versus someone giving the OP an ABC check list of ground work .
A 'trainer; that does not get on a problem horse, is an instructor at best, and certainly not a trainer
"do as I say', does not exactly cover good horse training.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ground driving is often useful for a horse that refuses foreward.
Well, this horse has been 'ground riven, or how else in the heck was he harness raced? Even without leg cues, he has gotta know forward, , including picking up a trot. 
Heck, as a kid, I could hop on those Percherons that we used in the tobacco fields, without them ever having had any under saddle training, yet both trot and gallop them bareback
Sorry, I see more than a horse screwed up by three lessons!


----------



## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OP-agree totally that this horse needs a MINIMUM of 90 days with a trainer without you riding him AT ALL. You should however, be there watching and learning as much as possible from the trainer. In the meantime, soak it up like a sponge and take lessons on another horse.

Some will always balk. I own one. I have learned how to deal with it effectively, yet, he will at times, try it. In the beginning, he behaved like yours and it was scary. I have learned a lot and so has he, but in spite of over 14 months with trainers…..one basic and one reining-I have been told he will always tend to balk. I have found though, that he will do it either because he is confused or because he is being stubborn. I have learned to read which is which and react accordingly. It takes time and LOTS of experience.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I give credit to the OP for recognizing that things were not going well, and finding another solution.

I am hopeful that she gets good, encouraging instruction from her new trainer/teacher and she and the horse have many good years together. The owner sure has the want to, which is where most of us started.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie - I know of at least one Trekking Centre that ran for years in the UK that bred their own replacements, the foals were handled daily from birth, when they were old enough they just slapped some tack on them and they'd be ridden out in the middle of the 'crocodile'. They never had an accident as far as I ever heard but I did once have a pony off them that had been used on their rides for two years, she was the quietest thing imaginable and nothing ever scared her but without another horse in front to follow she had no clue what to do or where to go. Essentially she just stood there and did nothing. I'm sure if someone had got forceful and aggressive with her she might have had a meltdown not understanding why that was happening
I know of many people in the UK who've taken ex-trotters (Pacers as we called them) and have had them riding out on the roads and tracks in a few weeks. They're used to a race track and the atmosphere at them so generally not spooky, used to being handled, used to having harness on, used to some of the cues used in riding even. 
Depending on the individual horse I would expect to send an average of a month lunging and long reining one that had been handled well before sent for breaking and then another two weeks - at an hour a day - if its going sensibly and isn't a nervy type I might well take it out on a quiet trail with another horse.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree Jaydee, that many horses can be ridden on trails following another horse, but are not really 'broke'
Heck, trail riding outfits and outfitters all the time use horses that are just broke enough for someone to get on, and that happily go down a trail, long as they can just follow the horse right ahead of them. They will pack dudes in very tough terrain, but try to ride one of those horses away from the group, or take a even a slightly different route, and that horse sure shows as to what training he actually has. This is the reason I asked if this horse was ridden out alone, or just with other horses


----------



## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Its interesting that this issue of going out alone has come up. I board my gelding standardbred and he is one of only a few horses at that location that I don't consider herd bound. Standardbreds are trained alone. They leave their buddies, and are jogged every morning. Sometimes getting to the track requires a solo ride in the trailer, parking and walking through a barn area, training track and in the case of Yonkers through the casino parking lot to get to the race track. These horses do this either be led in hand or driven. 

I have also heard of folks saddling and riding standardbreds within a week of getting them off the track. I don't recommend this because I think it leaves certain gaps with respect to lateral work; however, its really common. Some trainers see it as a bragging area (Ie. I had them wearing a saddle in two sessions vs. I saddled and rode them the day I got them from the track). It should be noted that some trainers based in the New Jersey area are known for starting all their two year olds under saddle and than switching to harness when the start doing actual race prep (gate training, etc). So, if this horse was trained by that trainer than it probably has more than 15 hours of saddle work. 

I think the OP's horse was confused by something and it reacted by getting quiet and thinking. I think sometimes as a rider we keep hammering home the idea of "right answer" not realizing that the horse is trying to give that but we won't let them get a word in.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

rookie said:


> I have also heard of folks saddling and riding standardbreds within a week of getting them off the track.


I'm not surprised because as someone who grew up on Trotter/Pacer tracks, I guarantee you that we hopped on every horse every chance we got. Most often bareback with a halter and leads. If the horse really needed direction, we'd put on the bridle used for jogging that horse and use lead ropes for reins.

From the cheapest claimers to those on the Grand Circuit.


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

rookie said:


> I have also heard of folks saddling and riding standardbreds within a week of getting them off the track.


A lot of standardbreds are used to being ridden even while racing in harness. One lady I knew years ago regularly included riding one horse leading another while trotting along roadside as part of her training regime. At least one of those horses was a well known winner on the track (at that time)


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I don't think there is a question of this horse riding out alone, nor that you can't just hop on a harness horse and ride them, as I certainly did, with those Percheron, which I know never had on lesson as a riding horse
I rode them bareback, as I had no saddle. I even rode them with harness on, bringing them out of the field for a noon break.
They also rode alone, as they often worked in those fields alone
None the less, those horses knew nothing bout leg aids, other that some bumping at their sides meant go. Certainly could not stop like saddle horse, and definately had no 'lightness, as driving horses often are driven on strong contact. No race horse is taught collection, as that is counter productive to covering ground fast
This horse also did not just come off the track, but was trail ridden by old owner, so no idea as to what kind of re training horse had. That re-training, could have established bad habits as well as good, depending on skill of that owner


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The topic of going out alone, was not based on him being an ex harness horse, but rather to get background, on a horse that balks, yet is touted to trail ride happily(not balking )
Thus, asking whether the horse rides out fine alone, helps to clarify the picture, as many horses that balk riding out alone, balk when asked to really do something, like pick up gaits, ect, appear good, because they trial ride, but if that riding is just following other horses, then that horse is not truly being asked to step out of his comfort zone, so then that trail riding has no relevance
In other words, there are many horses with holes in training, that ride fine in their comfort zone,whether that be it at home, in an arena, just riding along with other horses, but then ask that horse to do something he rather not, and you find out as to how broke that horse is
The jury is still out in my mind here, as the picture is very muddled. Could be a confused horse, but could also be a horse that has learned to give that imaginary equine finger, when asked to do something he rather not, and does that by balking and running backwards


----------

