# Just a rant on Abusive Instructors



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Not abusive to the horse, but abusive to the rider. I heard a lot lately about instructors yelling and insulting their clients or their clients horses and what they should do.* GET OUT OF THERE. *Never in my life would I let someone yell at me for riding "wrong". Some instructors forget two things. 1. They are teaching someone, they will make mistakes. 2. They are on a living animal and it has a mind of it's own. These animals are unpredictable. So if they think the best way to fix their clients problem is to yell insults and directions they are completely wrong. I've only had a sour instructor once and I had a total fit. I was doing a simple warm up on a horse from the barn and he was hot. Like sweat dripping down his neck and shoulders. The arena was like 80% humidity and it was 41 degrees OUTSIDE. The plastic inside the roof of the arena was sweating so bad it was dripping in some places. This horse was very uncomfortable and I was uncomfortable riding him. He started to act up a little, stopping and going and trying to head for the gate. I turned his head and brought him in a circle and got him going again. But then my instructor tarted yelling and screaming, going off the deep end that I wasn't aloud to do that because she didn't tell me to do it. She started insulting me, saying I'd "never be able to get out of this arena" and I was "wasting her highly valued time". I had a little quarrel with her before and I was not putting up with it again. I stopped the horse, dismounted, walked the horse up to her, put the reins in her hand and told her to shove her million dollar barn and her ****y attitude. That I wasn't going to pay for her to insult me and yell at me. You know what she said? She said "good luck finding someone else." I mean are you serious? There are lots of instructors out there that are 100 times easier to get along with than her. SO rant over, point is, you shouldn't pay to have someone insult you or your horse, and that there are many better people out there for you. Choose someone that fits your _needs_, not your _wants_.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Some people _need_ to be pushed or they won't ever progress. 

Sure, there are plenty of instructors out there who will tell you what you want to hear, but are they the ones who can actually turn out competent rider/horse combinations? If someone is still doing walk/trot in an arena after a couple of years of lessons I'd say their instructor is garbage, especially if all they do is blow sunshine up their clients' butts.

You need an instructor who will push you when you need it and back off when you don't, not someone who coddles you and kisses your tuckus because you have a silly idea that the 'customer is always right'.

As far as you feeling proud of yourself for blowing up at her because she blew up at you? That's a poor attitude to have. If you want to _be_ respected you need to _show_ respect as well, not come across as some foul mouthed harridan. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I do hope you've found an instructor who meets your needs and meshes with your personality.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Speed Racer said:


> Some people _need_ to be pushed or they won't ever progress.
> 
> Sure, there are plenty of instructors out there who will tell you what you want to hear, but are they the ones who can actually turn out competent rider/horse combinations? If someone is still doing walk/trot in an arena after a couple of years of lessons I'd say their instructor is garbage, especially if all they do is blow sunshine up their clients' butts.
> 
> ...


Well obviously I don't mind someone who pushes :lol: Your right, still doing a walk/trot around the arena would be total BS. I'd hope the client would see something wrong there. But its the actual abusive instructors that I can't stand. Some take it way way too far. I believe there are ways to teach someone that isn't forceful or angry. Yes, a little push is okay, but full blown screaming and yelling and insulting is not. Words like worthless, and useless, and unteachable should never be thrown around in an arena. And as for my temper, I do have a hot temper. And I don't put up with people who are rude. Our last scuffle wasn't even over riding. At the end of her raging insults I kept my composure. Yet she still tried to say "See you have no spine" when I walked out of the barn. So I was not putting up with a hypocrite. I've also gone on trail rides with this woman, and she is totally full of herself, I couldn't believe it. Some people deserve to be told. That's just how I grew up out on the ranch :wink: And this was years ago haha. As for being proud, no no. I will admit I did do something wrong there, but I don't regret it at all. She was just a sour woman and I thought she needed to be told so. Either way, some instructors "push" way way too far.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I think there is "over the top", and then there is just "not a good rider/trainer match". I have had people yell at me, for example, and if they hadn't of yelled I wouldn't have heard them...and their choice of words made it even more "loud and clear".:wink: And, oddly, I have had people yell at me in not so nice a manner that flustered and flat out p'ed me off so bad that I was able to channel that anger into getting over a "hump". I think it depends on the individual where they draw the line. But really? I wouldn't survive in a sticky humid environment with peter pan as the trainer.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I will not tolerate anyone yelling or being verbally abusive to me . Period. 
I understand what speedracer is saying . 
However I am a mature adult man and if you want my attention you need to be sensible in the way you get it.
What the instructor was doing according to the OP was bullying plain and simple.
I would simply have ridden the horse toward her looked her dead in the eye and asked if she was finished yelling. If she is she can talk to me in a civil tone I might listen then we could continue the lesson. If she wasnt I would turn my back to her and ride away after stating when she was done we could TALK.
Shalom


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> I will not tolerate anyone yelling or being verbally abusive to me . Period.
> I understand what speedracer is saying .
> However I am a mature adult man and if you want my attention you need to be sensible in the way you get it.
> What the instructor was doing according to the OP was bullying plain and simple.
> ...


Im a mature, adult woman, and no way will I work for pay where someone is being degrading, nor would I pay someone to be a butt to me.

Unless Im endangering or harming myself or my horse, I expect the instructor to keep a civil tongue and a reasonable tone of voice.

Constructive critisizm is usually =/= verbal abuse.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, idk, you two (demon and db). If it is an indoor, okay, I guess. But I think the environment matters. In the OP's case...ugh, that is the worst environment I can think of, so my tolerance would be sub-zero. But, if it is outdoors and windy, you just can't "hear" more a few words or syllables. So maybe a helpful person (family, friend, or trainer) gets frustrated and raises their voice and says something like, "d-g it, I said move that horse over, what the he** is wrong w you!?", Or whatnot....I would NOT throw their knowledge and wisdom out w the bath water. Now, if they proceeded to say something personal, like, "You have no taste in clothes or saddles"...okay, that is crossing the line for me.:wink:


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Raising your voice to get someones attention is acceptable. If the comments are to instruct someone. Not demean them.
Making comments about someones ability to ride out of an arena or their intelligence is bullying. 
Missy May I see and understand your point. Speedracers also. I agree that some people need to be pushed a little harder than others. 
An instructor needs to utilize different methods to motivate his/her pupils.
Personal attacks are never productive. Shalom


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I agree with you and your (past tense) instructor is wrong. There are MANY places to learn these skills. When I taught I always asked my potential students--read that "Clients"--to come and watch a lesson to see if this was the type of teaching that they were interested in before committing. I ran the business for a decade. My DH, atty, is in Private Practice. Small firms don't do well in small towns unless you offer free consultations, and flexible payments. Often clients hire him bc he has lent an ear to their problems. Good teachers are good listeners, too.
I also have taken many kinds of lessons over the years: equitation, piano & voice (college level and private), ballet & tap, Horse Health Care (CC), and 232 hours of college credit work. I have also taught, PS and privately, and while in college I attended many seminars with people in the arts FAR BETTER KNOWN than your un-named past tense riding instructor. Not every one was "fit for human consumption", but, surprisingly, some of the best were also some of the kindest.
You don't need to pay for abuse. IF you were to pursue a paying career in a competitive horse field, THEN, you might consider someone who could push you to the top AND was verbally abusive, but this isn't your case. I remember recently seeing an interview of one of our USET multiple Olympians, and she--forgot the name....sorry--talked about a teacher who instructed her to jump through a chute blindfolded so that she could learn to feel the jump AND to not interfere with the horse after takeoff. She said that both her teacher AND the exercise were what MADE her into an accomplished horseman.


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## TurkishVan (Feb 11, 2013)

I agree with the needing to be pushed, but it's how you do it that will set you apart as a trainer. 

I don't want someone who sugarcoats everything, but I am a sensitive person, like my horses. A slight inflection, or tone change, will really make me exert myself to change. For instance, my horse acted up when I had a lesson with my Mom attending (she lives a ways away, and doesn't come up often, so it was a big deal for me). A friend of mine had ridden my mare the day before, and she'd gotten away with lots of stuff. So she was trying to pull it on me, but I wouldn't have any of it. I got mad, because I had been making such good progress with this horse. I had talked her up to my Mom and there she went, not listening to anything, when 2 days before she'd been a receptive angel. So I got mad and bumped her with my feet instead of squeezing with my calves, and got growly. My trainer only had to say, "She's very sensitive, so you know that's not going to help, right?" It just slammed me back down to earth, and made me feel like utter crap. I caused it, and I took the blame. 

So soft chiding is something that really reaches me. I think we're a lot like our horses. You have to start out soft, and get louder, or we won't learn anything. 
Plus, if people start getting growly with me, and get derogatory, I start to subconciously transfer that over to my horse. Yes, I should have better control, and I'm constantly on the lookout for it. But by avoiding that situation, I'm less likely to do that sort of thing.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I never had formal instruction until dd took lessons and I would fill in for DD's lesson when DD couldn't make it. I enjoyed it a lot. It was very pleasant. However, I have had plenty of family and friends instruct me through the years. There is a difference when your pride and relationship stops you from quitting and crying "meany poop head!". But the result would be the same for someone that didn't know or wasn't related to the "instructor" and just sucked it up. It is just human nature to not take it from a stranger that you are paying - and there are certainly enough to choose from to find that perfect "fit". The determining factor to me as to whether I will "take it" or not is the "instructor's" ability. It is double, triple nice if they are gifted at teaching, though.

For a beginner, especially kids...no, there is absolutely _no_ place for any sort of yelling or "verbal abuse" and their ability to instruct becomes as important as their riding abilities. That I agree with.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

TrailBlazin said:


> I turned his head and brought him in a circle and got him going again. But then my instructor tarted yelling and screaming, going off the deep end that I wasn't aloud to do that because she didn't tell me to do it. She started insulting me, saying I'd "never be able to get out of this arena" and I was "wasting her highly valued time".



I had an instructor who yelled all the time but she didn't say things like that. I wouldn't have put up with that either.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

TrailBlazin said:


> The arena was like 80% humidity and it was 41 degrees OUTSIDE. The plastic inside the roof of the arena was sweating so bad it was dripping in some places. This horse was very uncomfortable and I was uncomfortable riding him.


41C = 105.8F. Your instructor (and you) were wrong before the instructor ever started yelling, because that level of heat at 80% humidity is just asking for heat stroke.

I do have some experience - boot camp at Parris Island - of abusive instructors who think yelling at you is a motivational tool, but even there, that likely would be "black flag" conditions, in which physical training is prohibited due to the number of heat stroke casualties.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

jamesqf said:


> 41C = 105.8F. Your instructor (and you) were wrong before the instructor ever started yelling, because that level of heat at 80% humidity is just asking for heat stroke.
> 
> I do have some experience - boot camp at Parris Island - of abusive instructors who think yelling at you is a motivational tool, but even there, that likely would be "black flag" conditions, in which physical training is prohibited due to the number of heat stroke casualties.


I agree 100% although I do like to do some light riding outside in the wind if weather permits. I really wanted to use the outdoor arena because there was a breeze and it was cloudy, but she insisted that I use the indoor :x


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I totally get what you're saying TrailBlazin. There is a huge difference between raising your voice to call out - I'd call that yelling to someone, where the aim is to get information across. Then there is yelling at someone and it's a bullying behaviour, nothing more. 

The way I see it as most instructors start out wanting to share their knowledge and in their rational mind they think of the right things to say, how to motivate, and how to get the best out of someone. Then, for whatever reason, the student does something that they didn't ask for/want/see coming etc and then to some people the rational side of the brain sort of shuts down and they get defensive. They feel that by the student doing whatever they did their own job/position/respect/power is at risk. Then regress to a primitive form of "reasoning" which is basically asserting their power or "bullying". A lot of students will cave immediately to yelling, other instructors might berate them for their skills, until they feel inferior, gaining the upper hand that way. This works especially with children, which is why I find that some instructors who teach children do not go well at teaching adults. 

The good thing is that there are heaps of instructors out there who are good, who have confidence in themselves and don't feel the need to bully for respect. They can be tough, motivational, they can be brutally honest, push and drive someone without having to bring them down. Not everyone has these skills, so sometimes even the most accomplished rider or horse trainer might not be a very good instructor. 

I think people only treat you as bad as you let them. Sure, some people brush it off but you're paying this person for this behaviour, and by not pulling them up on it you're allowing it to continue. I know I'm not the person who acts all tough and lets people treat me however they want to. I demand civility, and give it return and if someone cannot have basic control of their speech and emotions, I don't want much to do with them.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Saskia said:


> I totally get what you're saying TrailBlazin. There is a huge difference between raising your voice to call out - I'd call that yelling to someone, where the aim is to get information across. Then there is yelling at someone and it's a bullying behaviour, nothing more.
> 
> The way I see it as most instructors start out wanting to share their knowledge and in their rational mind they think of the right things to say, how to motivate, and how to get the best out of someone. Then, for whatever reason, the student does something that they didn't ask for/want/see coming etc and then to some people the rational side of the brain sort of shuts down and they get defensive. They feel that by the student doing whatever they did their own job/position/respect/power is at risk. Then regress to a primitive form of "reasoning" which is basically asserting their power or "bullying". A lot of students will cave immediately to yelling, other instructors might berate them for their skills, until they feel inferior, gaining the upper hand that way. This works especially with children, which is why I find that some instructors who teach children do not go well at teaching adults.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%! :lol:


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry, if you dont want to be pushed then find some silly little girl who will tell you the sun shines out of your behind and everything is fine. 

I pay good money to improve my riding, I dont want anyone telling me it something is good unless it is 110% perfect.

The best instructor I ever had screamed at me and reduced me to tears, but I learnt more in the first 2 lessons than I had in the previous 3 years of weekly lessons. She pulled apart my riding to the point where I honestly thought nothing was right and then she put it back together so I was riding the correct way.

Her time was very very valuable, £100 an hour valuable, you had to undergo an assessment to be able to ride at that stables and the horses you rode averaged £40k. So she didnt suffer fools gladly, she had waiting lists 2 years long and those who didnt try 110% were told not to come back untill they were willing to put everything into it.
She was very blunt about weight, if you were over her weight limit you were told not to come back untill you were under it.
She also firmly believed that if you got off the horse and your legs still supported you then you hadnt been working hard enough. Many times I got off those horses with my abs burning and promptly collapsed in a heap because my legs wouldnt hold me up.

Her horses were so used to it that the didnt bat an eyelid at people ending up on the floor underneath them.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Im sorry, but you dont have to be a DB to be an effective teacher. Of ANYTHING. Period.

If you learn best being abused by someone, more power to you. But it is completely out of line to suggest there are two ways to go about this...an "effective dbag", or an ineffective, dishonest fool blowing rainbow dust up our rears.

My last BO was a great person, spent a lot of money and travel time to take reining lessons. She invested in new gear and a high speed (mil speak lol) lease horse. Week after week, I watched her enthusiasm and spirit die, as her trainer pushed and pushed....telling her she HAD to show, that she HAD to spur her horse more, push, push push. Yelling at her and everything! She was so discouraged, she started losing her desire to learn! She felt that she must suck if the trainer was treating her like that all the time.

Now dont get me wrong, she admittedly learned tons, especially since she never had formal lessons....but being beaten down is not the best way to learn, for her, or many others. This isnt boot camp! 
PS, I dont give a crap if someone is the Queen of the Known World, that does not give them the right to mistreat me, be it horse riding or graduate studies, Id take my money elsewhere.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

faye said:


> Sorry, if you dont want to be pushed then find some silly little girl who will tell you the sun shines out of your behind and everything is fine.
> 
> I pay good money to improve my riding, I dont want anyone telling me it something is good unless it is 110% perfect.
> 
> ...


Well unfortunately I wasn't paying that much for her. I was paying 100$ a week. And I'm curious, what was her weight limit? :shock:


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

demonwolfmoon said:


> Im sorry, but you dont have to be a DB to be an effective teacher. Of ANYTHING. Period.
> 
> If you learn best being abused by someone, more power to you. But it is completely out of line to suggest there are two ways to go about this...an "effective dbag", or an ineffective, dishonest fool blowing rainbow dust up our rears.
> 
> ...


I don't know if I would classify that is "abusive" so much as it was a bad "fit" of trainer and student. If someone's goal is to do reining, I would just assume they meant, ultimately, to show. If someone is at the point they _can_ do "x" or "y", but hesitate, would you lie and tell them no problem b/c they will be competing against people that are equally as hesitant to do "x" or "y"? Or, would you push them? I've intentionally "lightly asked" a horse b/c I knew their ability and hesitated to "turn it on" full throttle. And, I have had that met w some not so kind words and zero understanding or sympathy, to put it mildly. At some point you say, "okay, crap, I will do it afraid, _jackass_", and you do. For me, if I hadn't been pushed with "abusive" tone and choice of words _when necessary_, I would have never "grown". And, I _have_ on occasion backed out, gotten mad, and sulked. A coward dies a million deaths....so for some of us...thank heavens for the well timed "abuse" - we needed it. Others may not.


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> Some people _need_ to be pushed or they won't ever progress.
> 
> Sure, there are plenty of instructors out there who will tell you what you want to hear, but are they the ones who can actually turn out competent rider/horse combinations? If someone is still doing walk/trot in an arena after a couple of years of lessons I'd say their instructor is garbage, especially if all they do is blow sunshine up their clients' butts.
> 
> ...


There's a difference between pushing and abusing. Screaming and/or insulting is a lousy means of communicating. If someone comes at me that way, it puts me in a fairly evil frame of mind, myself. But being pushed challenges me to no end.

One junior instructor was going for the insulting route, I don't know why-maybe trying something new and I kept my feelings to myself until one day she just got to me and that button being pushed, I sort of came back at her - not insulting her but raising my voice and reminding her I'm human, I'm trying very hard and I really do not like being yelled at or insulted.

Ah but the senior instructor is so damned good, she's wicked. She knows exactly how to push buttons to get you to challenge yourself without resorting to any kind of screaming or insulting or demeaning. She just lets you know she knows you can do it but she never insists, she just lets you know she knows you can. It's her tone, her relaxed method and her little smile - like she's got my number. However, she'll work with you to figure out why you can't, if you can't consistently. Even getting you off the horse and getting on and figuring if the horse needs to be communicated with differently. She's open, she's not competitive with her students, meaning your achievments and failures are yours to experience without her ego getting in the middle of it. 

At one point I **** near killed myself trying to push myself in order to live up to that kind of pressing and mentality and I've had to teach myself how to back off and rest because that is really, about the most effective method of making a student very competitive with themselves.


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

Missy May said:


> Well, idk, you two (demon and db). If it is an indoor, okay, I guess. But I think the environment matters. In the OP's case...ugh, that is the worst environment I can think of, so my tolerance would be sub-zero. But, if it is outdoors and windy, you just can't "hear" more a few words or syllables. So maybe a helpful person (family, friend, or trainer) gets frustrated and raises their voice and says something like, "d-g it, I said move that horse over, what the he** is wrong w you!?", Or whatnot....I would NOT throw their knowledge and wisdom out w the bath water. Now, if they proceeded to say something personal, like, "You have no taste in clothes or saddles"...okay, that is crossing the line for me.:wink:



I can't hear a damned thing in or outside. Our arena is enormous with an appx 30/40 ft high ceiling so words go floating up and away and I'm in my 60s and I'm probably half damned deaf anyway.

But the tone of voice - says it all. If someone talks to me like I'm a bad child or something that got stuck to the bottom of their shoe, it riles me. It really does.


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## wild old thing (Jun 15, 2012)

faye said:


> Sorry, if you dont want to be pushed then find some silly little girl who will tell you the sun shines out of your behind and everything is fine.
> 
> I pay good money to improve my riding, I dont want anyone telling me it something is good unless it is 110% perfect.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but that's nuts.

Everything you're describing could have been accomplished without insulting and abusing people. I've taken a lot of instruction in my lifetime, in sport and as an artist. I've seen instructors, particularly in sports, who would publicly humilate their students, it was their badge of honor. In art too, you'll have the "artiste"s who are just too big for their britches. No one is THAT important and I don't care what they charge.

There was a coach who was utterly humiliating and hideous to his kids when they didn't put it out there under pressure. Everyone loved him because he got such great results. But his methods were well known and the results of it as well. Many skaters left the sport because they couldn't take the pressure HE put on them, in addition to the events themselves.

Then he grew old and his health suffering, he toned down his act. Guess what? His knowledge was far more important than his nasty ways of reducing his skaters to blubbering tears if they didn't grab the top of the podium. He STILL coached national champions. He just didn't abuse them. 

Life is too short. If YOU mean business, you don't need someone lording over you calling you fat and stupid and useless. Sorry. I don't buy it.


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