# Oral Sedation Alternatives



## govanki (Mar 8, 2017)

My vet has refused to supply any oral sedation ie Sedazine, Dorm etc and will only provide vet administered sedation via injection. Is there are any effective sedative equivalents on the market that I can by online? I have a horse who is worried about getting her feet trimmed and I would like to give her something short term until she figures out it is not a scary situation.
Finding an alternate vet in my area is not an option as we are an Island and they are the only vet here.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

You can buy anything online but if it's a prescription you'll still need to go through your vet.

Did you ask your vet why they don't want to do that? They do absolutely have the right to not give you prescriptions, that is sort of the point of the prescription after all. If they aren't comfortable I wouldn't push it...

There are calming supplements but nothings going to be as effective in that type of situation. I would honestly have the vet come out and sedate her, the goal is to only do it once or twice anyways, right?

Or depending on her feet and how bad she is just keep on working with her until she's better and not worry about the sedation. It's training and experience she needs and the sedation while it will help in the moment won't provide that.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Work with horse every day. 

I once bought a horse that, to my surprise and dismay reared straight up & striking at the farrier. Turns out there was a reason for that.

I worked with that horse every day, at least twice daily. When the farrier came back, the horse stood like a pro. On the next visit the horse greeted the farrier at the fence.

Unless you have a farrier that likes to strong arm every horse they work on, your horse will come around, with some effort on your part.


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## SansPeurDansLaSelle (May 6, 2013)

In my experience oral sedatives do basically nothing. Have your vet teach you how to give the injection so you can do it yourself. It's really pretty easy and not scary.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Agree but at the same time it sounds like the vet's not willing to give her sedatives so unsure if that will help.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

ACE/ACP given before the horse gets stressed works well and so does Dorm. - give 30 to 40 minutes before you need it to work and they're more suited to a situation where you want the horse to just feel calm so I don't understand why your vet won't let you have some. 
The injected sedatives are mostly IV and I doubt you're going to be able to administer those on your own so even less likely to get them to do yourself.
I could understand that he might want to come out the first time to be sure of the dosage and the horse's reaction to the drug but you'd likely find that after a couple of times of being lightly sedated for the farrier you wouldn't need to use anything again
Valerian Root has a pretty strong sedative effect - its the only thing I can think of that does - if you use a magnesium supplement for a while before the farrier comes it might help


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## SansPeurDansLaSelle (May 6, 2013)

I do all my IV sedatives myself, once you figure it out it's pretty simple. My vet gives me a big bottle of Dorm (my preference for clipping/shoeing/etc.) and a pile of needles and syringes so I can do it myself. If I had to have the vet come sedate them for me every time I clipped or something it would become totally cost prohibitive. 

In addition, if your horse colics you should always have Banamine available and feel comfortable giving it as an IV injection, especially if you have limited access to vets it can make a huge difference.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SansPeurDansLaSelle said:


> I do all my IV sedatives myself, once you figure it out it's pretty simple. My vet gives me a big bottle of Dorm (my preference for clipping/shoeing/etc.) and a pile of needles and syringes so I can do it myself. If I had to have the vet come sedate them for me every time I clipped or something it would become totally cost prohibitive.
> 
> In addition, if your horse colics you should always have Banamine available and feel comfortable giving it as an IV injection, especially if you have limited access to vets it can make a huge difference.


Are your horses insured? The reason being, insurance companies won't cover a lay person giving IV sedatives, if things go 'south'
NO, I have had horses colic and never never just give Banamine . Doing so, without proper diagnosis or the colic, can have a medical colic turn into a surgery colic, as that medication masks a colic getting worse
My vet has never recommended Banamine, and I have dealt with some serious impaction colics, living in Alberta winters, plus a few foals with high meconium impaction. Correct treatment first, and THEN perhaps Banamine
There is also a risk giving large volumes of anything IV, that is not an antibiotic
I am a lab tech, have no problem taking blood from horses , giving IM antibiotics, but I don't cross that ;professional line;, doing veterinary procedures, without a DVM. It is that very reason, equine dentists require a vet to be present, if a horse requires sedation


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There was an oral sedative an equine dentist used, that was very effective, but takes a half hr or so to work
He suggested horse owners should keep some on hand, just not tell the vet in was for any dentistry work, LOL
I will see if I can find that info on what it was.


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## SansPeurDansLaSelle (May 6, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Are your horses insured? The reason being, insurance companies won't cover a lay person giving IV sedatives, if things go 'south'
> NO, I have had horses colic and never never just give Banamine . Doing so, without proper diagnosis or the colic, can have a medical colic turn into a surgery colic, as that medication masks a colic getting worse
> My vet has never recommended Banamine, and I have dealt with some serious impaction colics, living in Alberta winters, plus a few foals with high meconium impaction. Correct treatment first, and THEN perhaps Banamine
> There is also a risk giving large volumes of anything IV, that is not an antibiotic
> I am a lab tech, have no problem taking blood from horses , giving IM antibiotics, but I don't cross that ;professional line;, doing veterinary procedures, without a DVM. It is that very reason, equine dentists require a vet to be present, if a horse requires sedation


I don't insure any of my horses so I can't answer to what may or may not affect insurance. I just listed one instance where it has been helpful for me to know how to give Banamine IV. I've dealt with a handful of colics and always contact a vet for guidance first obviously but have been instructed by them to give IV Banamine before they could get there on occasion. Another instance where that was useful was a colt that hurt his leg very badly (thought it might have been broken, turns out it wasn't) and the vet had us give him some Banamine to keep him calmer until he could get out there. Every barn owner I've known has done their own injectable sedation for clipping and shoeing. Not negating any of your experiences just listing some of mine


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Or you can get paste Banamine.

I completely support doing your own shots and all that but none of this addresses the fact that the one vet the OP has access to does not want to give her any rx sedatives... So she needs something "over the counter" that she can order. I can't think of anything that would be worth giving myself. If the horse needs sedation it needs sedation and a calming supplement or whatnot won't change that.


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

If you are looking for an over-the-counter supplement, you could try SmartCalm Ultra. I can't say it will work for you, but a full dose knocked out my nervous Haflinger. It was so effective for him that I only gave him less than half a dose before rides. Eventually he became more confident and didn't need it any more.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horses that need sedation for shoing or clipping???
I guess I just expect a horse to learn to accept those procedures, through correct training
Far as effective pain med, in a pinch, injectable bute, given orally works great
Funny how vets differ. I attended a talk, give by a vet , who specializes in colic surgery and advanced treatments like shock wave therapy, and he went into clients who gave their hroses banamine for colic, and who then were lulled into false security, with that horse appearing relatively 'better; as the condition actually got more serious, the pain being masked.
By the time that pain was no longer masked, with the hrose rushed for surgery,he has found large sections of the bowel black and dead
I;m not saying to let a horse suffer needlessly, but banamine is not the treatment-addressing the cause is
My own equine vet, who is also a life time horseman, would be very up set, if I just gave Banamine to any horse showing colic


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is agood link on sedation of horses.
Also, I did some googling, and laws vary from State to State, and in Canada, as to who can administer sedatives,plus recommendation for IV
I guess an owner can in some States, give their own sedative by IV, BUT the drug has to be prescribed by the vet, for that horse only, and a horse he has seen recently
A farrier or equine dentist cannot give a sedative to a horse owned by a third party
Knowing how insurance companies try to find loop holes, I sure would not be giving an IV sedative, on ahorse that I had a policy on, in particular

I lost the US site, but good old google can find it

Here is the info on different sedatives

https://www.horse-canada.com/magazine_articles/using-sedatives-for-or-against/


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"I guess an owner can in some States, give their own sedative by IV, BUT the drug has to be prescribed by the vet, for that horse only, and a horse he has seen recently"

It's law for any rx around here that the vet has "seen" the patient within the past year.

Now large animal vets work a little differently as we all know. I asked the vet at the barn I worked at for some inj Banamine cause I saw them regularly and it was easier. They have never seen any of my animals and home base is probably 3 hours away from my parents place lol. Being horse only vets she actually said as she fetched me a bottle "I didn't know you could give sheep Banamine!". Now they knew me and knew I worked in the horse industry and such, not like I walked off the street and asked for drugs but good luck getting 99% of small animal vets to do that. ONE vet I know does and she's the one we've known for 25 years, I don't think she would for anyone else.

I don't know whether the vets decision is legal or not, maybe they just aren't comfortable with it, but it is their decision and not something that can be argued. People don't have the right to just be handed Rx meds when they ask for it, it's entirely at the vets discretion.

I'd use Ace but I'm honestly not even comfortable sedating my own horse beyond something like that so would get the vet out anyways just for piece of mind. Sedation is so iffy too, it doesn't always go the way you plan.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

SansPeurDansLaSelle said:


> In my experience oral sedatives do basically nothing. Have your vet teach you how to give the injection so you can do it yourself._ It's really pretty easy and not scary_.


It really depends on the horse and the sedative. So far the horses I've seen given oral Dormosedan were just as sedated after a half hour as if they'd been given IV sedation (heads down, wobbly on feet). And I've seen horses that were not affected whatsoever by ACE, which is not as strong as other sedatives but is often used for trimming. 

It seems quite risky to give horses IV sedatives without a vet present (other than less strong drugs like ACE). I agree with the "easy" part, but not with the "not scary" part.

Just recently I saw a horse that had the usual dose of sedative for stitching a wound and the vet had to give the antidote because he was going down. Another horse in our area recently went down after being sedated and the vet let him stay down for a half hour and didn't give an antidote. This was apparently a bad decision because although he seemed to wake up from the sedation after a bit, he was found dead the next morning. The sedation was for a routine float.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm going to agree with your vet....
No prescription strength sedation unless "the vet" administers it.

Your vet has your horses health as the foremost important thing.
If your horse is that unruly for the farrier then co-ordinate vet and farrier together so appropriate dosage and administering of correct drug is done to safeguard the horse, the farrier and of you the owner having to handle the drugged horse.

To me, I would far rather pay the vet for their time and skill a few times while the horse learns there is nothing to fear from the farrier than have a overdose, a bad reaction or worse and have no help on hand for immediate intervention.
Sometimes that $ saved* is* a bad decision...

By law, in many states it is illegal for anyone without a license to administer prescription sedative drugs...that includes owners!
It_ is_ done, we know that. 
It doesn't mean it is "smart" though...
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> ^Or you can get paste Banamine.
> 
> I completely support doing your own shots and all that but none of this addresses the fact that the one vet the OP has access to does not want to give her any rx sedatives... So she needs something "over the counter" that she can order. I can't think of anything that would be worth giving myself. If the horse needs sedation it needs sedation and a calming supplement or whatnot won't change that.


Sure, I give IM shots and vaccines, but I don't give IV shots, unless, as once, avet had me give antibiotic shots by that route, as the hrose had a severe septicemia, and IM was becoming too painful
I don't think a hrose owner should be giving IV sedatives , and just have a big bottle on hand, to give to any horse he wishes
Yes, this is the spin off , from the OP;s post, as she was not the one that suggested used IV sedative, but wanted an oral one
Vets will give them to their customers, but, here in Canada, it has to be for a horse they have seen recently, and only for that horse.
Some vets get a bit sticky, if they think you are perhaps getting that oral sedative for an equine dentist, so best not to state that is the intent, even if it is

Agree with Horseloving guy, as my posts have indicated
I also wonder as to why a farrier would feel comfortable even working with a sedated horse. Some horses can have a sudden violent reaction to a sedative, becoming unexpectantly very reactive-sure would not wish to be under that horse at that time!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> It really depends on the horse and the sedative. So far the horses I've seen given oral Dormosedan were just as sedated after a half hour as if they'd been given IV sedation (heads down, wobbly on feet). And I've seen horses that were not affected whatsoever by ACE, which is not as strong as other sedatives but is often used for trimming.
> 
> It seems quite risky to give horses IV sedatives without a vet present (other than less strong drugs like ACE). I agree with the "easy" part, but not with the "not scary" part.
> 
> Just recently I saw a horse that had the usual dose of sedative for stitching a wound and the vet had to give the antidote because he was going down. Another horse in our area recently went down after being sedated and the vet let him stay down for a half hour and didn't give an antidote. This was apparently a bad decision because although he seemed to wake up from the sedation after a bit, he was found dead the next morning. The sedation was for a routine float.


My friend's horse, was lost during sedation, having an eye removed. Because it was a vet that gave the sedation, her horse was covered by insurance
I've seen a horse, who were shown on ACE. I always wondered as to why this one professional trainer, could come riding from the barn, do a 5 minute warm up, and win or do well jr horse trail, while I had to get up at 5AM and really ride my horse, then let him rest while I got ready
Well, she must have overdone her dose, as in a jr HUS class, where I was also riding, a trainer sitting in the stands told the show committee that there was a drugged horse in the class
Since that class was being filmed by a friend, I got to see it. The horse was a gelding, and hung his penis during the entire class, with the rider having the spurs dug into the hrose, to keep him going. In the line up, she got off, and literally had to drag the horse out of the class
ACE can permanently affect a gelding's ability to retract his penis
I get using a sedative, under the supervison of a vet, recommended by a vet, but not the lacks a daisey way many owners use them as ;routine/


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> My friend's horse, was lost during sedation, having an eye removed. Because it was a vet that gave the sedation, her horse was covered by insurance
> I've seen a horse, who were shown on ACE. I always wondered as to why this one professional trainer, could come riding from the barn, do a 5 minute warm up, and win or do well jr horse trail, while I had to get up at 5AM and really ride my horse, then let him rest while I got ready
> Well, she must have overdone her dose, as in a jr HUS class, where I was also riding, a trainer sitting in the stands told the show committee that there was a drugged horse in the class
> Since that class was being filmed by a friend, I got to see it. The horse was a gelding, and hung his penis during the entire class, with the rider having the spurs dug into the hrose, to keep him going. In the line up, she got off, and literally had to drag the horse out of the class
> ...


Completely O/T but I also knew a trainer whose horse got Ace 3x a day. She seemed to be the one who thought he needed it (he "HAD" to be on stall rest) the rest of us thought maybe if he got ridden and turnout he wouldn't need the Ace? The biggest problem with Ace is horses blow right through it so good for "long term" use being more mild (say stall rest not to give just to give year round as some people do!) but I wouldn't do it for something I "needed sedation."

I don't do IV drugs myself (Banamine is IM in sheep). The BO where I board does but she has flat out said she will only do her horses, fine with me!

Just not comfortable with possible reactions. Even IM horses react (though usually more of a sore neck then something serious)


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## govanki (Mar 8, 2017)

Thanks for the feedback everyone.
My vet does not support anyone, other than themselves via IV, administering sedation to a horse. This involves a $170 call out fee + time + medications + vet nurse to handle the horse (insurance requirement). So likely a $400+ vet fee plus the farrier costs.
The intention is for this horse to be as good for the farrier as my other horses but she needs her feet doing immediately hence the reason I asked the vet for Sedazine (historically the vet has been happy to distribute Sedazine to horse owners).
I might try Good As Gold.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as IM banamine, because of the volume, and no antibiotic, there is a real risk of a clostridium abceses
It is for this very reason that IM ivermectin was removed from use in horses. It was not the drug, but the fact that hroses are more susceptible then cattle, far as getting a colstridium infection, through contamination
The risk of administering intramuscular banamine : Horse : University of Minnesota Extension

'It is important for owners to be aware of the risks if they give intramuscular (IM) injections of Banamine or other medications.

Banamine as well as a number of other drugs (ivermectin, progesterone, anti-histamines, phenylbutazone, dipyrone, vitamin B complex, synthetic prostaglandins) can cause muscle damage when injected. While this usually causes few problems, spores of the bacteria Clostridium can lie dormant in healthy muscle and begin to proliferate if muscle is damaged. Growth of this bacteria causes Clostridial myositis, a serious and sometimes fatal condition. Within 6 to 72 hours of the bacterial infection beginning, horses develop swelling and crunchy areas of gas under the skin at the site of the IM injection. As bacterial toxins are released into the bloodstream horses quickly become very ill with signs of depression, colic, purple gums, and reluctance to move. Diagnosis of Clostridial myositis is made by identifying gas produced by Clostridia in the damaged muscle using ultrasound and by examining aspirates of the area for bacteria.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Wow. I live in an expensive area and have an expensive vet and having her out to sedate for the dentist (power float) (call + cost of meds) AND do a full round of spring shots AND buy bute and banamine was less than that.

That's very very lousy 

I still don't think a supplement will work for this situation if she's that bad but no harm in buying a few and trying them. They're definitely cheaper than your vet!


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