# disrespectful horse



## clavoie (Mar 27, 2012)

Well I have finally realized hoe much my horse disrespects me. And now I don't know if I should stick it out with him or not. About 5 months ago I bought Moose and he was the first horse I have actually owned, I've been leasing the past few years. We brought him home and everything was fine. He is an 18 year old ottb and has been a lesson horse and eventer. I got him to ride english for fun. He was everything I ever wanted for the first few months. Now he has shattered my confidence!

He has learned I am such a push over with him and I have been babying him, letting him decide what we are going to do everyday. He has lost all respect for me, and his acting out makes me nervous and scared of him. I know he is a great horse, he showed me that this winter, but now I have let him get away with so much, I do not know how to fix it.

I took him and I on our first trail/camping ride this weekend with my neighboors. The problems started when he wouldn't load. After he flipped out the back of the trailer I was hysterical worrying he was going to get hurt and I was just saying I didn't even want to go camping, that he wasn't going to load so let's just leave him here. Finally I left the area while my husband and neighbor forced him on there.

The next issue I have with him is him tying. He pulls back when tied and this is his behavoir that scares me and makes me so nervous I shake. When he pulls back, he really pulls back and doesn't give into the pressure. I don't want to kill my horse or have him get hurt when he startd doing this so he has learned when he freaks out when tying, so do I so I untie him and let him run free. I start getting tense and worry that he is going to pull back if he starts moving around when tied so I stop my tying training lesson and let him out to pasture.

He has learned how to manipulate me to get what he wants. I need to fix this or I will never be able to enjoy him.

When it was finally time to trail ride he was all nervous once I got on his back, as was I since it was both of our first time trail riding. It was about 5 minutes into the ride and everything went downhill, literally. There was a huge steep hill to climb up, nothing I had ever had any expiernce with being an english rider doing most of my riding in the arena. So we follow the horses in front of us up it, we get half way up then moose starts backing down. Another rider still at the bottom let's me follow him and his mare up, so we start up it again almost get there, but tthen stops, I start kicking him, he was dancing around in the woods, I got nervous and not knowing it at the time must have pulled on the reins for security, we both start going down the hill, he starts to lose his balance so I fly off, before we both fall and he falls on top of me. I got a pretty nice black eye and some good bruises. 

At this point I am hysterical again and just wanted to go home. I was sore, embarssed, my confidence gone. I ended up swithing horses with my husband. He was riding one of the neighbors well seasoned trail horses. My less expieranced horse husband who has never gotten on mooses back got on Moose. He rode Moose for the entire 8 hour trail ride. There were a few hiccups in the begining getting him to not speed up to get in front of the line, and he tried backing down the next hill. Overall once my husband got on moose, you would never have guessed it was his first trail ride. He was a different horse.

It makes me feel aweful my husband who hasn't messed with horses much got on my horse and could ride him. And now after the fall my confidence is gone.

My husbnd has been working with our neighbor on treating moose with a harsher hand, and not putting up with the disrespectful stuff he has tried with me. Moose has got me fooled that he is a bad horse. I saw how good he can be with my own eyes.

I just don't know how to get my confidence back and be firm with him, I always considered hitting a horse abuse, but I've seen how using some force on moose has gotten him back to the way he is supoose to be!
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## katbalu (Sep 8, 2011)

Hitting a horse with anger with no purpose besides satisfying your anger could definately be seen as abuse. But what do you think when he's out in the pasture, and gets kicked by another horse for doing something disrespectful? Do you consider that abusive? Correcting a horse does not mean abusing a horse. Hitting a horse does not always mean abusing a horse. You may gave to get tough with a horse, and it is not necessarily abusing a horse. Think about it this way - since you haven't been tough/stern/accepting nothing less than respect, NOW you have to be EVEN TOUGHER than you would have to have been in the first place. Wouldn't it be more fair to him to correct him and get his respect immediately, than to let him get away with bad behavior until you have to give him the *smack down*
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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

clavoie said:


> I always considered hitting a horse abuse


That there is your problem. There is nothing wrong with one good hard whack.

With the tying, honestly, tie him solid in a rope halter with no clip on the lead rope (any metal creates a weak spot). He is old enough to learn to give in to pressure sooner or later. You just walk away and leave him for a while. Have someone supervise him in case he's really going to hurt himself, but if you're likely to cave in to his protests, don't be within eyesight. Both my horses tie solid, I don't use twine because I have had a horse learn to pull back when it broke and he got loose. I can walk away and leave them for literally hours at a time and never a problem.

If you ask him to go forward, he GOES FORWARD. I don't care how much force it takes you to make him move, the important thing is that you make him move. I know some people who wait them out and then make them stand a little longer, but honestly, if a tree is coming down on top of you you don't have TIME for that. IMO you should ride, all the time, like you expect your horse to respond and do as it's asked RIGHT NOW, just in case you really do need to get somewhere in a hurry.

Loading can be a fear thing, or it can be a stubbornness thing. My gelding was terrified, at first, after falling twice in a transport truck on his way to me. My mother was the first one of us to try to load him and he flat out refused, so she gave in because she didn't have a lot of time. Ever after that, he was a nightmare until we MADE him go on. He now loads easy every time and sometimes self-loads. He self unloads every time easy and calm.

Horses are big, dangerous animals, so it's imperative that they respect you. A large part of that respect is you ask, they do. Right away without protest. To teach them to respond, you start really small, with a very gentle ask... like a please, pretty please will you? And then you tell them (for example with the hill) "walk on". And then demand. "WALK ON". And then a promise, and this last phase has to be REALLY good, because it's your last resort. "YOU WILL WALK ON RIGHT NOW OR YOU'LL BE SORRY".

it's sort of like, with the walk, a little touch with your heels. Then a squeeze. Then a little kick. And last but not least a big cadenza, HUGE kick, whip, spur, whatever you have to do to MAKE that horse move.

Start this in the round pen at first, a controlled space. Make sure that when your horse does move, you don't catch him in the mouth, and just let him go for a few strides. Then bring him back gently, and start again from the very softest of asks. They learn very quickly. It will seem to the outside observer that the horse is having a big panic but they are actually perfectly calm once they understand what's going on.

Be aware that if YOU are the one to do this, he will escalate his behaviour and try to dominate you. Whatever you do, don't give in. Just keep at it until HE gives in. Even one step is progress. Even half a step is progress. If he moves in the direction you ask him to move, even the slightest little bit to begin with, then YOU have won.

The important thing to make sure you always do, is get what you're asking out of the horse... even if you have to take a step back and ask for it a little simpler, as long as you finish on that good note you have won and he will learn that you are the boss.

Edit to add; the problem you have is because you seem not to have gone past the "please, pretty please" and so he has gotten away with ignoring you. Horses always take the easy way out, and if you make it easier for him to do as he is told, then he will do as he is told. You haven't been doing this, so he hasn't been behaving himself.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I think you both would be best served by finding someone who can work with you together (and possibly also separately) from a training/instruction standpoint.


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## clavoie (Mar 27, 2012)

Sorry, I double posted


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## clavoie (Mar 27, 2012)

Yes, I think it took this camping trip to realize how big of a problem I have created. I am also glad no one has said to our right sell him and move on. 

Thanks for pointing out that.horses naturally are rough with each other in the pasture. I guess I was just so hung up on the fact that hitting a horse was being "mean" to them. I just wanted my horse to like me, so when I asked pretty please and he refused, I gave in and said okay maybe next time. I wish I had caught my mistakes a lot earlier.

Luckily my neighboor who we went camping with is also my farrier and he breaks horses on the side. He is a wealth of knowledge and made a good point to me this weekend. He explained to me horses are not pets, they are livestock. I have been thinking Moose is this fargil little thing while in reality he isn't.

This weekend I steped back and let my husband and our farrier do whatever it took to get moose to respect them. There is a world of differnce between how moose responds to them. He is an angel to them, and rightfully so. They didn't put up with his games. Everytime he pulled back they untied him and ran him backwards in circles, up hills, and finally he stopped pulling back.

The farrier told us to tie him up for a few days and just let him be, he will work it out himself and realize it isn't worth hurting himself. This weekend we are taking Moose out on the trails by our house this weekend with my husband, the farrier and his wife and I am going to ride him. I am excited because I do want to conquer this.

Luckily our farrier/friend is willing to work with me to get moose back to respecting me. Him and my husband are also going to spend a lot of time working with him when I go on vacation a few weeks.
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## Fingerlakes (May 2, 2012)

_Hitting a horse with anger with no purpose besides satisfying your anger could definately be seen as abuse. But what do you think when he's out in the pasture, and gets kicked by another horse for doing something disrespectful? Do you consider that abusive? Correcting a horse does not mean abusing a horse. Hitting a horse does not always mean abusing a horse. You may gave to get tough with a horse, and it is not necessarily abusing a horse. Think about it this way - since you haven't been tough/stern/accepting nothing less than respect, NOW you have to be EVEN TOUGHER than you would have to have been in the first place. Wouldn't it be more fair to him to correct him and get his respect immediately, than to let him get away with bad behavior until you have to give him the *smack down*_


Totally agree with this - you took the words right out of my mouth. Horses are smart and they will test you. When they find out you are a push over they will exploit this to no end. Horses "battle" for pack hierarchy. You need to be at the top of this pecking order. No exceptions.


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

"I just wanted my horse to like me..."

And therein lies your problem, which you're realizing now. Start thinking about your relationship with your horse this way: You will make his life easier, less stressful, and ultimately happier when you become the kind of leader he rely on, and the kind of leader who gives him consistent structure and boundaries.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

clavoie said:


> Well I have finally realized how much my horse disrespects me. And now I don't know if I should stick it out with him or not.


 I read the whole post. I say, keep him. He IS manageable, he isn’t too old to enjoy yet, but you need to learn to horse-wrangle. There are VERY FEW horses around anymore that anybody can handle. So, if you want to be a horse owner, learn from him. REMEMBER, the horse is the same weight to YOU, as you are to a cat. You MUST be gutsy, brave, and DON’T worry about *him* getting hurt. The previous owners didn’t want him anymore, and I don’t care if he gets banged up while you learn to be his boss.



clavoie said:


> He has learned I am such a push over with him and I have been babying him, letting him decide what we are going to do everyday. He has lost all respect for me, and his acting out makes me nervous and scared of him. I know he is a great horse, he showed me that this winter, but now I have let him get away with so much, I do not know how to fix it.


 You must dedicate the whole summer to reestablishing leadership. Your starting point is haltering, tying, and grooming. *Expect and teach him to drop his head down and tip towards you holding it there while being haltered.* Like this--








Put the lead around his neck to hold him. You do NOT need to tie him for this. The first session will be a fight until he does it perfectly 5x in a row, EVEN IF it takes you both ALL AFTERNOON!
*The SECOND session will be to teach him to tie w/out breaking the lead*. I will require a fence with a fence post and a very long lead, lunging line or rope, even a clothesline rope (cheap at the Dollar Store) will do. Use the smallest fenced in area you have for this. Run the rope through the fence post about this height


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Spook him to pull back, DON’T hold the end. He will back up until it’s looser but he won’t pull it all of the way through. Go online and find Clinton Anderson’s ads for his tie ring. It’s the same principle.
Keep repeating, again, until he does this perfectly 5x in a row. He will, eventually, stop spooking bc it takes effort, and horses are lazy. You MUST set aside a good week of 7 days in a row to get him to master this. MY OTTB was a mess when DH and took him on the “Red River Campaign” (CW Reenactment, April, 1994). We switched horses and he walked most of the 12 miles we traveled that day. But, the next day DH was aboard, and he was an angel by Wednesday. It IS possible, so don’t give up.
*The THIRD session is grooming*. Carry a short whip. He must learn to turn on the forehand for you every time you change sides. Throw your arms up to ask, use a good smack with the whip if he doesn’t listen IMMEDIATELY. Moose is the same size as my horse, “Long Arm of the Law”, but, being a TB his reaction time is faster. My horse needs a couple of seconds to move obediantly. My TB didn’t.
*The FOURTH session is grooming 2.* He must allow you pick up his feet. Start with ONLY the front 2 feet and master those before you do the back 2. Don’t pay attention to any posts that tell you it’s bad horse management to not pick out all 4 feet. His feet will survive waiting for the training, and you can blame the previous owner for ALL training problems. Lean against his shoulder, pinch in the back of the leg above the fetlock. First time you ONLY want him to pick it up a little. Ask for him to pick up and hold it longer and longer. He will PROBABLY be pretty good at this already, but you want to assume that it will take longer than you think. Take a good MONTH—considering that he has hurt you YOU need to time for your confidence—and you will enjoy all of the power you get from telling him what to do and winning all of the little battles.



clavoie said:


> I took him and I on our first trail/camping ride this weekend...(and) he wouldn't load. After he flipped out the back of the trailer I was hysterical worrying he was going to get hurt


 Go to Clinton Anderson’s video on horse trailer loading. The exercise to load will teach you much more about horse control than any other. To be honest, I am more spooked by my mean-as-dirt 8 lb. Rooster than ANY of my horses. (I’ll PM you about this one.)


clavoie said:


> I got nervous and…we both start going down the hill, he starts to lose his balance so I fly off, before we both fall and he falls on top of me. I got a pretty nice black eye and some good bruises...I ended up switching horses with my husband. My less experienced horse husband who has never gotten on mooses back got on Moose. He rode Moose for the entire 8 hour trail ride. There were a few hiccups in the begining getting him to not speed up to get in front of the line, and he tried backing down the next hill. Overall once my husband got on moose, you would never have guessed it was his first trail ride. He was a different horse.


 Allowing Moose to have freedom instead of learning to tie has taught him that you believe this is acceptable. GOOD THING your husband wanted to be his boss. THIS tells me the horse isn’t all bad.
You are lucky that he didn’t kill you on the trail ride. Your fears are legitimate. He is not READY for trail-riding, but perhaps next year he will be. You obviously can get a saddle on him now, so do so every day (possible) and get your husband to ride him as much as possible bc they have now established a bond with your husband in charge and you want to keep this going. Make him wear a helmet, please.
DON’T be ashamed. I have been riding since I was 9yo.—43 years, more or less. I have owned horses for 27 years (next month.). I have been studying the tv trainers. They ALL train their own horses correctly from the beginning, so that THEIR horses don’t have problems and they don’t get hurt. The demos they do with problem horses show that they know how to ”BREAK” a horse out of that horse’s bad habits, which is not a skill I wish to learn, but I DO know how to retrain. You are younger than me and this experience will teach you what to look for in your next horse.


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## Boots4ACowGirl (Apr 28, 2012)

I started out like you, 'my baby', my 'baby' became a brat our first ride out. My husband kept saying 'smack her with the end of the reign." I didn't do it cause I was afraid to hurt her. Like you, I was determined to help her be the best horse she could be for me and my grandkids to ride. After listening to the people on forum who've had experience, she's a different horse and I am a different rider. I had a wreck a few years ago on a ranch horse after a lightning strike while we were gathering pairs. It took me awhile to get back in the saddle. Duke shied and he would, he is experienced, 17 years on the range and ranch, that strike was too close. _I'm_ the one who fell off. He didn't leave me. He stood right there in stepping in front of those spooked calves til I could get my wind and get up. My husband was so impressed with Duke's savvy. So was I, he probably save my life if not serious injuries until the other riders could get to me. Good luck with Moose, he's worth it, you'll see.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

Just wanted to add that even if you did get a new horse and sold Moose (which i do not think is necessary at this point, especially since you are working to correct it), you would eventually have the same problem with the new horse.

The problem lies not within the horse, every horse will test you and will take advantage of you in some way or another. Some are worse than others. Moose just needs to be taught that you are serious, and that you are his leader. Once that happens, his old training will kick back in and you will get your "good" horse back.


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## katbalu (Sep 8, 2011)

I think you should keep him, because you can learn an incredible amount here, and the more you'll learn, the better he will be. If you get rid of him, and get another horse, you are likely to create the same problem. If you keep him, you can learn to work through this issue, as long as you have some experienced horse people by your side (it sounds like you do), and are willing to learn and ask questions (it appears you are). Keep at it!
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## katbalu (Sep 8, 2011)

Lakotababii said:


> Just wanted to add that even if you did get a new horse and sold Moose (which i do not think is necessary at this point, especially since you are working to correct it), you would eventually have the same problem with the new horse.
> 
> The problem lies not within the horse, every horse will test you
> and will take advantage of you in some way or another. Some are worse than others. Moose just needs to be taught that you are serious, and that you are his leader. Once that happens, his old training will kick back in and you will get your "good"
> horse back.


I suppose I was typing same time as you 
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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

_I am always disheartened to read posts like yours where people buy their first horse and it's way too much for them. I realize that YOU created most of these problems with the horse, as you so bravely admitted. But I also get the feeling that your choosing an OTTB as your first horse, and your being expected to just Cowboy up and go camping with your horse, when you don't have the basics down is a set up for failure. A more mellow horse and some shorter trail rides, and some practice with trailer loading might have made the whole experience one of pleaseruable learning, instead of a fearful disaster._

_IN any case, you have Moose now. And you realize that you must change your way of viewing him and dealing with him and never go back. So, I wish you the very best in working with the farrier ,if he is the one who becomes the trainer. It is you who will make the most changes, so be ready to grow!_


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## kac7700 (Apr 20, 2012)

I really feel for you, I was almost in the same situation. My wonderful horse I bought started to turn into a monster, but I recruited a trainer right away who gave him an attitude adjustment and taught me how to be a leader. I really had to work on it, carried a crop with me constantly for a few weeks, worked on leading and space and it carried over to the saddle. It took about 4 weeks of constant and consistent leadership on my part and now he WANTS to be with me and trusts me and I him. 

Don't give up on him. You've got it in you and you can make this work. Good luck to both of you.


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## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> _I am always disheartened to read posts like yours where people buy their first horse and it's way too much for them. I realize that YOU created most of these problems with the horse, as you so bravely admitted. But I also get the feeling that your choosing an OTTB as your first horse, and your being expected to just Cowboy up and go camping with your horse, when you don't have the basics down is a set up for failure. A more mellow horse and some shorter trail rides, and some practice with trailer loading might have made the whole experience one of pleaseruable learning, instead of a fearful disaster._
> 
> _IN any case, you have Moose now. And you realize that you must change your way of viewing him and dealing with him and never go back. So, I wish you the very best in working with the farrier ,if he is the one who becomes the trainer. It is you who will make the most changes, so be ready to grow!_


I agree.

You expected a lot from an OTTB who hasn't ridden on trails. Especially when you haven't ridden on trails a lot. I think you need to go back to ground work and basics. I also agree with the comments that you might need to find someone to work with you two together. 

My father-in-law and I both have OTTB geldings that are solid trail horses. But they did not start out that way. We went on a lot of stressful trail rides to get to this point. It was 4 years of riding them in the hills around home before we ever took them overnight. I have been riding Comic for 6 years and this spring is the first time I would say he is solid. He's finally arrived where I like a trail horse to be. OTTB horses are nervous by nature and if he's only been on a track or in an arena then a tree or rock can look pretty scary. He needs to trust that you won't get him into trouble so when he sees those things he knows that it must be okay since you are okay with it. At this point he doesn't respect you AND he doesn't trust you. You need to work on both. I'm guessing he's a pretty big guy (Moose sounds big) so that's a lot of horse to get back on after falling off.

Good luck with Moose. It'll take a lot of time and work but you two can be great together.


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## SplashedOvero (May 16, 2012)

Selling Him & getting another horse wont Solve anything Because If you get a well broke horse & you act the same way with it Its going to Realize your easy to push around & it will do the same.
Im having some of the same Confidence issues as you . When I try to get my horse to listen & he does something he should I freak out start shaking & get upset Which is my problem. Your Horse Does Not respect you Just like mine does Not respect me at the moment. You need to Show him Who is boss.
Seems to me he freaks out when being tied because he senses your fear & he knows its a quick way to get out of working. Get one of those Tie up things that give slack when the horse pulls back to keep him from freaking out. &
Dont be scared to Show him who is boss. Hes Freaking out Because he knows your scared.


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## Sammyjoe (May 5, 2012)

I agree with all the answers above. Some fantastic replies here. I am however commenting from the other end of the scale experience wise, Ive been turning to this forum alot recently with confidence issues my self which have rissen when taking a fall trying to bring on a very green broke ( but admittedly easy to do) pony. 
After I took my fall I lost HUGE amount of confidence and went from teaching the canter in circles the night before to shaking when trying to walk around the arena. The point im trying to make is this pony never played up once I was there when he got backed etc, as soon as I fell and lost my confidence I started imagining the same happening again and I started creating problems. This pony started stopping and not moving forward , whilst leading, entering stables and whilst riding. I was too frightened to smack him because I was scared of his reaction. Basicaly I just did what I felt confident in doing until my friend who broke him came to help, which was loads of ground stuff. 
He even tried to kick me in the stable at on point. 
Being scared doesnt help anyone infact it will lead to dangerous situations. But I know how hard it is to get rid of the fear. My friend came and straightened all of these "issues" I had created in my HEAD in an hour. Most of them didnt even exist. 
Last night her and her mum came and gave me confidence while I rid, I was shaking when I got on and I started to work in the arena. Her mum started giving ME a lesson, back to basics telling me to move my hads lengthen my legs, turn this way, that way, sitting trot etc etc. The next I knew I was flying around the arena without a care in the world. It took my mind off the pony and onto my self. 
After going through a similar situation confidence wise id say do what work you feel confident with yourself starting from very basics on the respect side as mentioned in previous posts.
Let you farrier and or BF do the more difficult stuff that upsets you like tying so that it can be sorted NOW. and then when you build your respect and confidence levels try getting a lesson or two on him riding even if its off your BF. Not because you need lessons just because it will amaze you that when your mind is busy thinking hard about listening to somebody and now worrying about mooses next move how the two of you will do wonders and so the confidence grows in every session! 
Iam a work in progress still but instead of feeling like I cant do this pony, after just one session with someone helping im looking forward to taking on new things and realising REALLY how much of this stuff is in my head. If I think hes gonna spook, hes gonna spook. When I thought he was gonna keep stopping hes obviously gonna keep stopping and as my reinforcment lessened with my confidence so did his respect. Now I feel like im gaining it back and gaining back control. I am no longer scared to smack him on his butt when he tries to stop or slowdown with our me asking because I know its what he needs. You will find your horse will LOVE you more and more the stronger a leader you become. He wants a leader. A leader he can trust and therefore respect.
I hope you can get your nerves together, for both your sakes. Good luck and enjoy!!


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