# Two Point Vs "Jumping Position"



## MIEventer

I believe that the two are completely different.

My Coach calls it "Functional Two Point" and "Passive Two Point".

*Functional Two Point:* Is where you are up and out of your saddle, but not that much. Just enough space bewteen your seat and your saddle, to fit your hand under.

Your chest is open, lifting your heart, tall upper body, looking up at your next fence. You are balanced over your feet, with your legs around your horses girth. Heels absorbing bodies weight, while you are asking your horse to come up into your seat with every upstride of the canter.

In this position, you can use your core to half halt, you can control rhythm, fluidity. You can ask your horse to move out, to come back under you. You have a lot of control, while staying out of your horses way.

My hands are too high here..they should be much lower, so ignore that....





















*Passive Two Point:* Is just that - passive. This is the point in time, when your horse is going over the fence. You stay over your horses center of gravity, you are still over your feet, legs are still around your horses girth while they are asking your horse to come up into your seat - but you are staying out of your horses way.


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## VelvetsAB

_I was hoping you would post MIE!_

_I like your version of explaining it better then my own. _


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## Eliz

Hm.
See, the photos that MIE posted look more like a half seat to me, then 2 point.

In my jumping lessons, we always do our positions on the flat (half seat, then 2 point) before we start jumping.

Half seat is literally like half way to 2 point. You're up out of the saddle (a little bit, not as much as 2 point) and as MIE said your horse moves up to you in the upstrides of the canter. Your hands are not as far forward on the neck as they would be in two point, but farther up than a "normal" seat.

2 point on the flat for me is the same as 2 point going over the jump, except obviously the horse closes your hip angle over the jump.


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## VelvetsAB

_But it could also be called a brushing seat, as your butt brushes the saddle at certain points during the canter._

_So really then....brushing, two point, and half seat are all the same thing, just different names. It just depends on how you were taught with what names...?_


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## Eliz

Yeah I suppose it is subjective to what you were taught.

It sure does make things confusing though! Because my half seat may be what you call 2 point, etc. :/


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## VelvetsAB

_Could one be considered more correct then the other?_


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## Zeke

I learned the same terminology as Eliz. Just apply the names half seat and two point to MIE's examples is basically how I've always known it. 

As for one being more correct....it's just a name right? So its like the famous chestnut or sorrel debate? Depends on what crowd you run with. Or maybe that's just my take...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## corinowalk

While I am not a jumper or even an english rider, I use a half seat when working with the youngsters. To me, a jumping seat would me much different. I can totally agree that to me, a half seat, brushing seat and 2 point are all essentially the same.


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## MIEventer

Well, maybe you're right! I found these pics - but I can't find the article. I know MyBoyPuck posted the article once on here, from the Practicle Horseman Magazine........

But it shows the seats, and maybe my "Functional Two Point" is more of a 3 point or 1/2 seat? But the 2 point, looks like what I am doing.......now I am confuzzled ladies!

Here's the Full Seat:










3 Point Seat...or is this the 1/2 seat?










1/2 seat - or 3 point?? BAH! CONFUSING!










And 2 Point:


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## ErikaLynn

The last picture of the 2 point I would call that a half seat. But I always though jumping position and 2 point were the same thing. 

Also the in the last image it looks like the rider is getting sprayed in the face with sprinklers. It made me laugh a little.


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## VelvetsAB

_I would say the first pic is full seat, the second 3-point, the third a brushing seat, and the last a 2-point._

_Erika--they are but they aren't. Take the last picture from just above ^^ and pretend he is going over a jump. The horse would have closed his angles up...but he hasn't leaned forward at all. _

_I guess that would mean I am now contridicting what I said earlier though._


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## MIEventer

BINGO! You got it Velvet! That's exactly right! 

What I am taught by my coach - is that the transition between the Functional Two Point, to the Passive Two Point, is that the horse closes the angles, and all you do is push your seat back.

We shouldn't move at all - shouldn't.....easier said than done........lol, but you are correct. The horse closes the angle - the rider doesn't throw themselves on their horses neck, and does this and that - all we are supposed to do, is just stay put. The horse does the job, we stay out of their way.

Again...easier said than done.

lol Erika - I had to go look at the picture, and you're right! It does look like that.


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## ErikaLynn

So you're saying jump position is the position you're in while in the air over a jump? and The 2 point is like the picture? That makes sense, I was just always taught to call it jump position.


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## VelvetsAB

_Yes, because although you are in your two point before and after the jump, it does change when you push your butt back. Plus, I think it is confusing for it to be called the same thing._

_When you are told to get into your two point and you are flatting (at least at my barn) everyone assumes a position that they would be in going over a jump. To be more "technically" right, if we were asked to get in our two-point, we should just have our butts out of the saddle, and not pretending we are jumping air. _

_Does that make sense?_


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## MIEventer

That makes sense Velvet - great explanation. 

I know the two as the titles I've already shared.

Functional Two Point - and Passive.


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## ErikaLynn

Yes that does make sense.


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## VelvetsAB

VelvetsAB said:


> To me, up until recently, I thought they were the same, until I got to *actually* thinking about it.
> 
> Two point only means two points of contact, and even though I can jump in this position, I also use it for canter work as well, to stay off "my" school horses back and let him move a bit more freely.
> 
> So now that I realized that, jumping position is the position I am actually in when I go over a jump.....back flat, hands forward, automatic/crest release, centered over the saddle....letting the horse close my hip angles for me. That being said, I have not jumped a height over 3', so I am not having to put my chest closer to the horses neck like a grand prix jumper might have to.


_So really the above should say that it is the same, except one is just a slight variation of the other.....because the 2-point is still the same, its just that I am now over a fence and have closed angles._


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## Eliz

VelvetsAB said:


> _Yes, because although you are in your two point before and after the jump, it does change when you push your butt back. Plus, I think it is confusing for it to be called the same thing._
> 
> _When you are told to get into your two point and you are flatting (at least at my barn) everyone assumes a position that they would be in going over a jump. To be more "technically" right, if we were asked to get in our two-point, we should just have our butts out of the saddle, and not pretending we are jumping air. _
> 
> _Does that make sense?_


Oh okay, I get it now. That is how it is at my barn as well


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## VelvetsAB

_OK...now that we have all confused ourselves on terminology. LOL_

_Thanks girls _


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## MIEventer

Don't forget your New Outside Rein Velvet!!!


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## corporate pride

I was taught that 2 point position is when your out of the saddle and only ur hips and heels are in line - like the position you in cross country between jumps
light seat is sort of half seat where your up in a 3 point position but hovering over the saddle on a jump approach
jumping position is the position you go in over the jump in the air. like....
jumping position..


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## justjump

I never really cared.. As long as I get over the fence and around the arena without looking like an idiot, it doesn't matter
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## corporate pride

justjump said:


> I never really cared.. As long as I get over the fence and around the arena without looking like an idiot, it doesn't matter
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


^^^^ lol me too until i started jumping up towards 1 meter and it counted more as my horses was "picky" with jumps and if i didn't ride him he wouldn't jump


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## Opus

I'll also add a bit of confusion to this. 

I was always taught (Huntseat/Equitation) that 2-point was like the last example photo posted from Practical Horseman. In lessons, my trainer would also call for 'Horizontal close' and 'Vertical far' positions. Horizontal close being the position of a rider over a jump -- hands up on crest, body horizontal (parallel?) to the saddle/horse. And vertical far was basically standing up in your stirrups, straight up and down. 

Of course, I haven't heard it referred to that way since he taught it to me, so maybe it was just something he came up with? 

With all the various names for positions everyone's mentioned, I wonder if it has something to do with the disciplines maybe? Just a thought. 

(I'll have to ask my trainer what she thinks about it. We always end up having mini discussions on how jumpers vs. hunters approach jumps, different hunter styles, etc.)


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## VelvetsAB

That's also a good explaination Opus. 

justjump--it may not matter to you, but I find when I am trying to explain it to someone that it gets lost in translation because of how "loosely" two point can be used. 

Corporate--also another good explaination...thank you. 

MIE-- *grumble grumble* language barriers *grumble grumble* LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MIEventer

I'm not sure if I am a big fan of those explanations though - no offense Opus.

The reason being, the Horizontal Close - gives me the impression that the coach is asking the rider to do the angle closing for the horse, insead of just staying put and allowing your horse to come up to you to close the angles. 

Could this be why, we see so many Hunters on their horses necks?


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## Eliz

I just started jumping at a hunter barn. Just started. I've had literally 5 lessons.

I am taught to get into 2 point a little before the jump, in a nice 2 point (stretching up, not pulling my shoulders down) and place my hands on the crest and use them to balance if necessary. I hope that is not counted as laying on the horse's neck, I've seen hunters like that I want to learn the right way :/

Actually, I guess it is not 2 point, more like "jumping position". I need to start using those terms correctly! 

Anyway, that is off topic.


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## VelvetsAB

Actually Eliz, I think that relates directly to what we are talking about. 

What is and is not considered a two point? We know it begins as soon as your butt is out of the saddle (so also a brushing or half seat if that's how you call it), but where does it end? Or does it end? 

And by laying on a horses neck is like boobs on mane pretty much. LOL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eliz

Oh haha. I'm not allowed to put my chest on lesson horses' necks.  Lol

Hm. So if it ends when your butt touches the saddle again, wouldn't that make a jumping position 2 point? 

What about where your hands are on the neck? Is that the difference between 2 point and jumping position then? 

What on earth! Lol


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## MIEventer

Where's my Tylonal?


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## VelvetsAB

When you go over a jump, even if you let a horse close your angles, you are still going to end up a bit more horizontal then vertical right? Plus now you've moved your hands up into a crest or automatic release and pushed your butt back in the saddle. 

You still only have 2 points of contact, but you've moved from regular two point to jumping two point....?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Opus

Here's some Tylenol. 

ETA: Didn't mean my post would be the Tylenol. Far from it, probably. 



MIEventer said:


> The reason being, the Horizontal Close - gives me the impression that the coach is asking the rider to do the angle closing for the horse, insead of just staying put and allowing your horse to come up to you to close the angles.


No worries.  When he was teaching us, we were a walk-trot-canter class and he would ask for these positions while at a walk/trot. I'm not sure why, other than he wanted us to stretch a bit, or possibly so we could feel and rebalance in different positions. Our elbows were down, our hands on either side of the horses' neck/crest, body/boobs not on the horse's neck ... I still do this position when I'm walking or trotting and get bored with sitting/posting/double posting.

Where I'm at now, my trainer's preference is to ride between jumps in a half seat, and not get into 2-point until just before the jump, then let the horse come to you. So, from what I can tell, much like what you described, MIE. 

(We've also talked about how some jumpers like to slowly rise before the jump, almost in increments from half seat to 2-point, then lower themselves the same way after the jump. But maybe that's another thread? And more tylenol?)


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## VelvetsAB

I have a reply, but it'll be easier to do when on a computer...

Give me a few hrs to be done work!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VelvetsAB

_OK...so..._

_I forgot what I was wanting to say from earlier. _

_To me, I still think there is a slight difference between a two-point and being in a jumping position, even though they could be interpreted as the same thing. _

_This has gotten me really confused though!_


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## MIEventer

I know! That's why I need my Tylenol! lol

I'm going to stick with my Functional Two Point, and my Passive - lol


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## sandsarita

At my barn all there is is two point position. It is the position we practice at the walk, trot, and canter. It is the position we use when going to the jump. When going over the jump, you keep the same position, just letting the horse come up to you and close your hip angle. She never shows anyone the "jumping" position, never has the beginners practice it. She just tells them to go over the jump in the same two point position and not move. Use the mane for balance and let the horse do the work. I wish I had been taught this way from the beginning, as watching those that had and are just learning, it seems to me that they just don't have the problem of jumping ahead that so many people, including myself, have. But that's a whole 'nother conversation.


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## Eliz

Yeah, pain relievers should be a requirement for reading this thread!!


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## equiniphile

Wow, this is really thought-provoking. I have always considered 2pt to be your over-fences position, and half-seat the seat where you half-stand, as in on the cross country course or between jumps in SJ. Now I'm confused!


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## AlexS

My barbled explanation:

A half seat = off the horses back, relaxed contact on the reins. This position is used all the time in eventing so that you don't needlessly tire the horse. Not as extreme as a jockeys racing position though, just butt off the saddle. 

2 point = to me this is the classic jumping position, take a half seat and lean forward, but not over the pommel. 
You see Grand Prix level jumpers getting really ahead of there horses though, and ahead of the pommel, I would imagine that at this level it is more needed - so maybe that you be jumping position (?) because it is different from what other riders need to be doing.


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## VelvetsAB

_My intention wasn't to confuse anyone, and I am sorry for that. To be thought provoking though is good!_

_It has been really insightful to see how everyone has been taught and what names they have been told, as well as the variations on the seats._



_If one is truely letting the horse close their angles, and remaining in their two point position, I can definitley see it being called one and the same._

_But like Alex said...what about the GP riders? Are they changing position, or are they still closing the angles?_


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## AlexS

I think it is interesting for the same reasons you do. We have all been taught differently and have slightly different opinions.


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## Eliz

It is definitely thought-provoking, I love it! It makes me question what I have learned (and assumed!).

I wonder if there is really a "correct" and universal term. Maybe it is all just subjective.


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## JerBear

I never knew jumping was so complicated :lol: Sheesh.... guess I know what to expect now when I try to learn it...


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## Oxer

i was taught full seat, half seat, and 2 point. 2 point is the position over a fence. No matter the size of the fence. the only thing that really changes is your hip angle and your release. But that's just how i was taught! 
Couple pics of the big triple bar and then the little vertical. note that both 2 point/jumping positions are pretty much the same.


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## AlexS

Great pics Oxer, you have lovely form. 

JerBear, it gets over complicated when you over think it (I specialize in this in every aspect of my life) if you just go with the horse it is not all that complicated.


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## MIEventer

VelvetsAB said:


> _My intention wasn't to confuse anyone, and I am sorry for that. To be thought provoking though is good!_
> 
> _It has been really insightful to see how everyone has been taught and what names they have been told, as well as the variations on the seats._
> 
> _If one is truely letting the horse close their angles, and remaining in their two point position, I can definitley see it being called one and the same._
> 
> _But like Alex said...what about the GP riders? Are they changing position, or are they still closing the angles?_


Velvet, you are not confusing anyone  I am just being silly. I love threads like this because they are, just as stated - thought provoking 

GP Riders - are doing 5'0" + fences, on powerful horses with huge, powerful jumps. I think it is a combination of both. Those fences are massive!

Now, with us riders doing low level stuff - we need to learn to just stay put, and allow our horses to come up to us. It is so much easier said than done, I know - but when you get it, it feels great!


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## Eliz

Oxer: That is what I was/am being taught. Those are big jumps! You do have a great position 

I agree with AlexS, if you don't over think things it is quite simple, but what is the fun in that?! 

Allowing the horse to do all the work is hard! You have to sort of concentrate on relaxing, when that's pretty much a paradox. :wink:


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## Opus

MIEventer said:


> Velvet, you are not confusing anyone  I am just being silly. I love threads like this because they are, just as stated - thought provoking


Yes! I love this. I asked my trainer today about approaching jumps, and what she thought about the various positions. Locally, it seems a LOT of hunters will ride the canter in a full seat (3 point?), then go into 2-point right before the jump. Whereas in the area where she learned, it was ride in a half seat up until the jump, then slightly rise up into 2-point. 

I keep going back to the photos MIE posted, and I think what's throwing me off is that 'full seat' looks like the rider is squarely on his bum. Even when I'm just walking the horse, I'm a little more forward in my seat*, and riding a little more on my crotch, which seems to be more like the second photo. But more upright through my back and shoulders. Then the other two photos make perfect sense.

The first photo _almost_ makes it look like he's in a dressage position, as he's pretty deep in his seat. 

* I'd also like to add that I was taught forward-seat equitation, so maybe that's the reason?


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## VelvetsAB

_See...I ride hunters, but I do not ride in a 3-point, except when I am collecting. I would say I ride in more of a half seat or 2 point._

_*runs off to find a photo of riding at a canter...even if its a crappy pic*_

_OK, this picture is from 2 summers ago (?) and you can clearly see that my butt is out of the saddle. I felt that my stirrups were too short, but thats something else..._









_This is a picture from last fall. (I am on the horse in the back, and yes we tippy toe!). Again, out of the saddle, although Bart was on the 'up' part of his canter stride._


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## MIEventer

LOL! Tip Toe thorugh the tulips.....where's my mandolin? Or is it a ukulale?

Velvet, I like the 2ns picture much better! You look very solid, you look balanced and over your feet. You are out of your saddle enough to free your horses back, while yet you can remain balanced and functional. 

Functional Two Point


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## gypsygirl

so does two point involve the use of the seat ?


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## MIEventer

Good question!

I would say that 2 point consists more use of your core than anything. What I do with my seat when I am in my "Functional Two Point" is that it is tucked under me slightly. Your out of your tack enough to free your horses back, while yet balanced over your feet.

Hmmm - good question.


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## VelvetsAB

_Its different boots, plus more time in the saddle._

_The boots in the first picture are rubber, and didnt really give me much support in the ankles at all. Of course in the second pic, I'm in field boots. It made such a difference when I got paddock boots and half chaps._

_(I am surprised I looked that good in the second picture as well, because I had just worked a 12 hour night shift, then went straight to the barn to leave for the show. I got home at 1, and had to work at 7 that night. NEVER again!)_


_I do not use my seat at all in a two point, but all lower leg, tiny bit of thigh and upper body._

_Three-point obviously yes, seat, because the third point is your seat._


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## gypsygirl

its interesting how people use terms so differently ! you tend to think your terminology is universal but i read a lot of this thread and use terminology differently than quite a few people.


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## upnover

Wow, how did I miss all of this??? 

This is what I've learned through various trainers/clinicians and this is what I teach:

2 point-means, two points of contact: contact 1 is one leg, contact 2 is the other leg. Your seat is not touching the saddle. Use? The position you're in over the fence, galloping a long distance, etc.

3 point AKA full seat: 3 points of contact: leg, leg, PLUS seat. Your entire seat. usage: collection, sitting trot/canter, transitions, dressage, etc.

Half seat AKA medium seat, light seat, I've even heard someone refer to this as "jumping seat" but I find that confusing as she meant it as the seat you get into to prepare for a jump, not the seat you'd be in over the fence. Probably the most varied in definition. 2 points of contact, plus a light contact with your seat, upper body forward. Usage: galloping over long distance, hunters ride most of the course in this position, etc. 


In all of these positions degree of upper body angle, placement of your arms, etc etc are irrelevant. An unbalanced 2 point is still a 2 point. An ineffective full seat is still a full seat. (Although, in a 2 point or half seat your upper body will always be in front of the vertical, but the degree is negotiable to the situation.) Also, how you get there is irrelevant to hte position. A trainer a long time ago taught me that you approach a jump in your full seat, then hurl your body forward into a 2 point. Closing my hip angle and letting my horse jump up had nothing to do with it! Wrong? yes. But technically still in a 2 point over the fence!

But like I said, this is the way I understand and teach these. I think they're some of the most "grey" definitions of jumping.


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## VelvetsAB

_Gypsy--Yes, it is pretty interesting, because you would think that it would all be the same._

_Well, now you've found it upnover! __What you said makes sense as well. _


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## vikki92

when i took jumping lessons i was thought to when canter around, keep butt in the seat & move with ur horse then as you come up to the jump start movin into 2 point then when time release over the jump, then once over and landed all fours, butt back in the seat while canter, then slowing come down to a trott (posting) so what im tryin to say is i only used 2 point while getting ready to go over the jump.


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## gypsygirl

upnover said:


> Wow, how did I miss all of this???
> 
> This is what I've learned through various trainers/clinicians and this is what I teach:
> 
> 2 point-means, two points of contact: contact 1 is one leg, contact 2 is the other leg. Your seat is not touching the saddle. Use? The position you're in over the fence, galloping a long distance, etc.
> 
> 3 point AKA full seat: 3 points of contact: leg, leg, PLUS seat. Your entire seat. usage: collection, sitting trot/canter, transitions, dressage, etc.
> 
> Half seat AKA medium seat, light seat, I've even heard someone refer to this as "jumping seat" but I find that confusing as she meant it as the seat you get into to prepare for a jump, not the seat you'd be in over the fence. Probably the most varied in definition. 2 points of contact, plus a light contact with your seat, upper body forward. Usage: galloping over long distance, hunters ride most of the course in this position, etc.
> 
> 
> In all of these positions degree of upper body angle, placement of your arms, etc etc are irrelevant. An unbalanced 2 point is still a 2 point. An ineffective full seat is still a full seat. (Although, in a 2 point or half seat your upper body will always be in front of the vertical, but the degree is negotiable to the situation.) Also, how you get there is irrelevant to hte position. A trainer a long time ago taught me that you approach a jump in your full seat, then hurl your body forward into a 2 point. Closing my hip angle and letting my horse jump up had nothing to do with it! Wrong? yes. But technically still in a 2 point over the fence!
> 
> But like I said, this is the way I understand and teach these. I think they're some of the most "grey" definitions of jumping.


thats pretty much what i think too 

although i think there is a distiction [sp?] between half seat and galloping position.


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## Chiilaa

upnover said:


> Wow, how did I miss all of this???
> 
> This is what I've learned through various trainers/clinicians and this is what I teach:
> 
> 2 point-means, two points of contact: contact 1 is one leg, contact 2 is the other leg. Your seat is not touching the saddle. Use? The position you're in over the fence, galloping a long distance, etc.
> 
> 3 point AKA full seat: 3 points of contact: leg, leg, PLUS seat. Your entire seat. usage: collection, sitting trot/canter, transitions, dressage, etc.
> 
> Half seat AKA medium seat, light seat, I've even heard someone refer to this as "jumping seat" but I find that confusing as she meant it as the seat you get into to prepare for a jump, not the seat you'd be in over the fence. Probably the most varied in definition. 2 points of contact, plus a light contact with your seat, upper body forward. Usage: galloping over long distance, hunters ride most of the course in this position, etc.
> 
> 
> In all of these positions degree of upper body angle, placement of your arms, etc etc are irrelevant. An unbalanced 2 point is still a 2 point. An ineffective full seat is still a full seat. (Although, in a 2 point or half seat your upper body will always be in front of the vertical, but the degree is negotiable to the situation.) Also, how you get there is irrelevant to hte position. A trainer a long time ago taught me that you approach a jump in your full seat, then hurl your body forward into a 2 point. Closing my hip angle and letting my horse jump up had nothing to do with it! Wrong? yes. But technically still in a 2 point over the fence!
> 
> But like I said, this is the way I understand and teach these. I think they're some of the most "grey" definitions of jumping.


This is not what I have been taught. I am a 'book learnt' rider for the most part - my skills on a horse do not show my lack of knowledge but rather my lack of coordination. In every book I have read that mentions 2 vs 3 point seats, it is how you sit and the points of contact are: each seat bone and the front of your pelvis. In a 2 point, you only have your seat bones touching the saddle, so it isn't very deep. In 3 point, you are sitting deep in the saddle, so you have two seat bones touching, and the front of your pelvis too.


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## Eliz

^^
2 point= 2 points of contact (both feet)
3 point= 3 points of contact (pelvis)
That is what I was taught. 2 point you are out of the saddle, 3 point you have a very forward position and are part way out of the saddle (and very light in it). I will add another term.. 
(my) half seat= out of the saddle, but brushes on the up strides of the canter.

I don't understand your 2 point. If you are rolled back on your seat bones, that with no pelvis thouching, the would force you into a deeper seat (I would think) and less forward. More of a dressage seat. 
Or maybe I am misunderstanding you?


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## Chiilaa

Dressage seat has all three bones in your seat touching the saddle. Hence the 'three' point. Two point can look like a bit of a chair seat, since the front of the pelvis isn't touching the saddle.


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## gypsygirl

that doesnt make any sense, why would you have your weight on your seat bones and not your pubis ?? how is that 2pt ? why do you want to be in a chair seat ?

in dressage you want equal weight on our pubis and seat bones. for a more forward position you want slightly more weight on your pubis.


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## Chiilaa

It would make sense if you read it properly.

I am not saying that it is the only use for the words, I am just saying this is my understanding, and the only way I have ever seen them referred to in books.


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## gypsygirl

Chiilaa said:


> Dressage seat has all three bones in your seat touching the saddle. Hence the 'three' point. Two point can look like a bit of a chair seat, since the front of the pelvis isn't touching the saddle.


ya but what is the reason that you dont want your pubis touching the saddle ?

it drives me crazy when people say 'read it properly' when obviously i read it and it didnt make sense....


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## Chiilaa

Hey I am not saying that the chair seat is ideal. I hate chair seat. I am just pointing out the definitions that I know.


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## VelvetsAB

_I would really have to tuck my butt under me not to have my pubic bone in the saddle....and I dont think it would be comfortable._

_Not saying your definitions are wrong Chiilaa....just having a hard time picturing it._


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## MIEventer

There is a great distinction between the two seats, in my opinion. I think the upper body is what makes the difference between the Full Seat and the 3 Point.


Full Seat - Upper Body is tall, and he is deeper in the saddle. This is what I would say a dressage seat would be. Yes, you are on all 3 points. Both seat bones and pelvic bone. Your seat does not leave the saddle. It flows with the movement of your horse, brushing the saddle.











And the 3 Point, yes the seat is in the saddle, but not as much as it would be in the full seat. I think due to your upper body being ahead of the verticle, your moreso on your crotch, than you are on your seat bones. But that doesn't mean your seat bones aren't there. The upper body is much more forward than what you would see in a full seat.

I feel in this Seat, you aren't as "in" the saddle as you would be in a full seat. I do think your seat does come off of the saddle slightly during the canter.


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## ErikaLynn

Chiilaa said:


> Dressage seat has all three bones in your seat touching the saddle. Hence the 'three' point. Two point can look like a bit of a chair seat, since the front of the pelvis isn't touching the saddle.



I don't understand this...how can you be in a chair seat in the 2-point when you aren't even sitting on your butt?


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## gypsygirl

MIE isnt it really the position of the pelvis that is different [as oppossed to saying just the upper body - i think we are saying the same thing here, but i think it originates at the tilt of the pelvis] ? if the pelvis is tilted forward slightly your upper body will go forward slightly and there will be slightly more weight on your pubis that your seat bones, but still weight on all three.


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## gypsygirl

ErikaLynn said:


> I don't understand this...how can you be in a chair seat in the 2-point when you aren't even sitting on your butt?


*i think* that you are just sitting on your butt....which is no position i know !


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## upnover

Chiilaa said:


> Two point can look like a bit of a chair seat, since the front of the pelvis isn't touching the saddle.


What is the purpose of this and at what point would you use it? 

To truly understand the seats I think we need to not only be able to label them (however you end up defining them) but also understand why they work and at what point you use them.


MIE- Good pics! Definitely what I call a full seat as well. What you call a "3 point" is what I've heard of as a light seat. Regardless of what we call it, I think we are discussing the same thing.


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## MIEventer

gypsygirl said:


> MIE isnt it really the position of the pelvis that is different [as oppossed to saying just the upper body - i think we are saying the same thing here, but i think it originates at the tilt of the pelvis] ? if the pelvis is tilted forward slightly your upper body will go forward slightly and there will be slightly more weight on your pubis that your seat bones, but still weight on all three.


Very true gypsy, great point! I'm sitting here adjusting my seat while I sit in my recliner, and you're right. I can move my upper body forward and still have my 3 points in contact with the chair. Yet, when I lift my seat bones up and put most of my weight onto my pelvic bone, my upper body follows, or I extremely hollow out my lower back *yuck* 

speaking of which - what are the reasonings of the rider, when we see a hollowed out lower back? I do not see how this is functional at all?



> MIE- Good pics! Definitely what I call a full seat as well. What you call a "3 point" is what I've heard of as a light seat. Regardless of what we call it, I think we are discussing the same thing.


Great points too Upnover! I agree, I too think we are talking about the same thing.


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## gypsygirl

i would say a weak core and/or a rider who is very stiff and trying to force a position.


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## VelvetsAB

_I think some people dont actually realize that they are hollowing out their back, or are more naturally apt to have an arch in it._


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