# too big to ride.. please help me



## BlackCricket

have a chat with the people in charge of the barn...that's about all you can do really.

I'm a larger rider, weight wise, and have two ponies. Neither have had lameness or soreness issues--one is a smaller, leaner gaited pony, the other is a stocky haflinger. However, I'm careful with what we do, I make sure they stay in shape, and they get regular acupressure and massage and body work from me. I'm also careful to make sure I ride 110% to my ability to help them as well. We do some long, tough rides (trail riding) and I've yet to have any "ouchie issues" with either. I also make sure each has a properly fitted saddle, for me and them....saddle fit is SO important, no matter what the riders size. If it doesn't fit the horse, it hurts them, if it doesn't fit the rider, it doesn't allow the rider to effectively ride. 

I hope someone can have a chat with this woman and her instructors too perhaps?


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## Speed Racer

Unless you're willing and able to take on the horse she currently has, there's nothing you can do. 

She KNOWS she's fat, and someone else telling her isn't going to suddenly make her realize she's too big for the horse. All you're going to do is make her angry.

If the seller of the new horse has no qualms about taking money from this woman, then it's on them.

You're not the Fat Police, and unless you plan to buy up every horse she looks at so she can't get her hands on it, you're out of luck.


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## Golden Horse

You know even if you tried to talk to her you wouldn't have any success because everything about the way that post is written shows that you have no sympathy for the fat person at all. I do understand that you are concerned for the welfare of the horse but the descriptions make me cringe.

An Arab/Haflinger cross, shouldn't in theory be to bad a choice for a larger rider, both breeds have good weight carrying ability, partly because of that short broad back which can make both of the parent breeds a nightmare to fit a saddle to.

Without seeing this person ride it is difficult to say that she caused the issues that the horse now has, although on balance (or lack of it) it does sound like it is a rider issue. 

If you are just another rider at the stables then there is not a lot you can do, but if there is a trainer or instructor that she works with, then they may be able to make some suggestions. Please also remember that weight in itself is not always the issue, but weight and poor riding and or poorly fitted tack, certainly can be, so help in equitation and a tack upgrade may be as helpful as this person losing weight.

OH, and I wouldn't tell a long legged person that they are to tall for a Shetland, when it comes to a properly bred genuine Shetland they will tell you when enough is enough!!


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## Pawsnfur

I am 245 pounds. My horse that inride very very lightly, like for all of 20 minutes, just walking with an occasional trot or short lived canter is 16 hands and is a somewhat stocky paint. I have researched and constantly question if I'm "too big" for her. She obviously prefers to ride my 40 pound five year old around, but doesn't seem to mind going for a ride and often "asks" me to let her run. We are starting tom put a little endurance on her by lunging her and asking her to take me for a walk with her for longer periods. She barely breaks a sweat when we ride, but I long for a draft cross, to make me feel better. Until then, her and I eat apples and carrots together and I volunteer to do any of the grunt work around the ranch in an effort to lose some of this weight. I miss the days of being the gorgeous bikini wearing bareback rider I once was. What might help me not be so critical is if someone posted a flyer at the barn offering advice how to properly fit a saddle AND rider to your horse. ( or in disguise, a potential horse you are buying). I've been told that the rider should be approximately 20% of the horses weight.nmalso include how to measure your horse to get a guesstimate of your horses weight. It would look like someone trying to help people choose the right horse for them while preventing injury. Subtle, but if I did the math, I would feel bad on my own without needing to defend myself to someone who is judging me.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Granted, if she's a P*** poor rider, her weight is not going to help but I've seen skinny minnies who ride so poorly that I cringe when I see them beating their horses backs to pieces because they can't be bothered to learn to ride properly. 

It's the same principal as people hollering, "OMG You're not going to ride that horse in that SPADE bit are you?" when I've had friends bloody their horse's mouths with a fat, smooth snaffle. 

If you are not a good rider you can hurt the horse, doesn't matter how big or small you are. So if you're going to comment on anything then comment on her skills as a rider and suggest more training for her, that's more to the issue than her weight.


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## Plymus

i do not have sympathy for her, no. i don't see why i should. she is not fat because of some rare illness, she is fat because of what she eats, and riding is after all not a human right. 



 looking at this video, should i feel sorry for the man because of his eating habbits? i feel more sorry for the horse.
and yes, a poor rider of a small size can defiantly hurt a horse too! but 260 pounds bumping around in a small saddle vs. 120 pounds bumping around in the saddle, just ain't the same thing. and just because a horse can be hurt one more cruel way, does that make it okay to hurt the horse in other ways? 
i know being fat isn't fun, i've been a tad overweight my self too, but when i got my depression and put on some extra pounds, i chose to ride a bigger and stronger horse at the riding school. first when i lost the weight again, i went back to riding my favorite pony, cause he sure shouldn't suffer the slightest due to my issues and bad eating habbits!


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## Speed Racer

*i do not have sympathy for her, no. i don't see why i should. she is not fat because of some rare illness, she is fat because of what she eats, and riding is after all not a human right.*

You know this exactly_ how_? Do you live with her and follow her around, watching what she puts in her mouth? I'd say no you don't, so you have zero proof that she's just some lazy, fat slob who overeats. :?

She may very well be overweight because of her food choices, but again, that's none of your business. 

I can understand that you're concerned for the horses, but putting on your judgy pants and being a snotty beast to her isn't going to make her suddenly say, "Oh my! Yes, you're right! I have seen the light and will quit riding until I've lost some weight, since I'm obviously a big, fat slob and have no business on a horse!" :roll:

Riding isn't a privilege, it's a RIGHT for those who can afford a horse.


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## Golden Horse

Plymus said:


> i do not have sympathy for her, no. i don't see why i should. she is not fat because of some rare illness, she is fat because of what she eats, and riding is after all not a human right.


And now I have lost all respect for you, how DARE you make a judgement of why this person is fat, you do not know, as SR says do you follow her around all day watching what she eats? No you don't.

Look I really do get the point of a large person hurting a horse, I truly understand that concern, and yes I have a horse on this race because *GASP* I weigh 260 pounds and I ride.

No I do not have a rare disease, my metabolism works as it should as far as I know, I do know I'm an easy keeper, I will be alive in the famine long after many die because I convert my intake to fat really efficiently. I also have an addiction to food, would I rather be 100 pound lighter, hell yes, and I did lose all the weight, only to put it back on.

Am I stupid, no, I'm of above average intelligence, but this is a battle for me, one I have waged all of my life and will continue to wage. Let me tell you if it were simple I would be thin, but it just isn't for some people, and no amount of people judging me will change any of that.

Dreamcatchers post is worth repeating here



> Arabians Granted, if she's a P*** poor rider, her weight is not going to help but I've seen skinny minnies who ride so poorly that I cringe when I see them beating their horses backs to pieces because they can't be bothered to learn to ride properly.
> 
> It's the same principal as people hollering, "OMG You're not going to ride that horse in that SPADE bit are you?" when I've had friends bloody their horse's mouths with a fat, smooth snaffle.
> 
> If you are not a good rider you can hurt the horse, doesn't matter how big or small you are. So if you're going to comment on anything then comment on her skills as a rider and suggest more training for her, that's more to the issue than her weight.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Plymus said:


> i do not have sympathy for her, no. i don't see why i should. she is not fat because of some rare illness, she is fat because of what she eats, and riding is after all not a human right.


As someone else mentioned, HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO JUDGE ANYONE? You aren't God Almighty and have no right to cast aspersions on any person. 

Here's the best advice you will get on this thread:

Shut up, mind your own business and mind your manners. Your commentary is neither invited nor wanted by the person you are being so judgemental about.


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## Golden Horse

Oh, I just watched your video, I have no idea how much that man weighs but it is far more than 260 pounds for sure, and yes I feel sorry for that horse.

THIS is 260 pounds, riding. The horse is 15.2 hh


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## bsms

The forum is supposed to be an encouraging, supportive place - which is tough when someone slams other riders.

I'm not very fat - I'm a 5'8" guy at 175 lbs. Entering the 9th grande, I was 5' 1" and 155 lbs. I lost 45 lbs that year, but I was left with a layer of fat around my middle. In my 20s, running every day, I was 135 lbs - and still had a layer of fat around my middle. Lifting weights and running, I hit 185...with a layer of fat around the middle. That darn layer has been with me for 40 years now, and every year I work harder and harder while seeing less results in the battle of the bulge.

And when I ride my 830 lb Appy/Arab gelding, with saddle I hit 25% of his body weight. And no, I have no natural athletic ability, and riding well is probably the hardest thing I've tried to do. I can spend 6 months trying to make the gain some people do in an hour.

My gelding (and mare) don't mind. It might be different if I rode them 12 hours/day, but I don't. If I ride unbalanced, they get ****y. If I just try to ride balanced, they seem to accept that and work with me.

At 260 lbs, a rider OUGHT to show some judgment in selecting a horse to ride - but you'll find a lot of debate over what that judgment consists of. But that judgment, whatever it is, has to come from within. As others have pointed out, she probably already knows she isn't a rail-thin slip of a thing.

If you have a positive and supporting attitude, you MIGHT be asked for your opinion, and then you have an input into the decision. But frankly, if you just scream "Fat Slob!", you won't have any input at all. If you want to help the horse, try being supportive of the rider.

Someone watching me ride could shout, "OMG! You stink! The poor horse!" About all that would result in is my punching him in the nose. OTOH, someone saying, "Have you tried this while trotting?" will be listened to. Maybe not obeyed, but I'll hear him out.

How much influence you want to have is at least partially up to you.


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## kitten_Val

Plymus said:


> i do not have sympathy for her, no. i don't see why i should. she is not fat because of some rare illness, she is fat because of what she eats.


It's quite a strong statement to make. Unless she's your close friend or relative (which doesn't sound like a case here) you don't know for sure what's wrong. Plus some people do NOT disclose physical issues to everyone (and it's not anyone's business to ask about them either).

As for the video posted - it's sick. Personally I'd say something if I'd come across something like that. But then I've seen heavier people who are awesome riders and horses that were quite happy to carry them around.


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## Gidget

Plymus said:


> i do not have sympathy for her, no. i don't see why i should. she is not fat because of some rare illness, she is fat because of what she eats, and riding is after all not a human right. Tank Vs Horse - YouTube looking at this video, should i feel sorry for the man because of his eating habbits? i feel more sorry for the horse.
> and yes, a poor rider of a small size can defiantly hurt a horse too! but 260 pounds bumping around in a small saddle vs. 120 pounds bumping around in the saddle, just ain't the same thing. and just because a horse can be hurt one more cruel way, does that make it okay to hurt the horse in other ways?
> i know being fat isn't fun, i've been a tad overweight my self too, but when i got my depression and put on some extra pounds, i chose to ride a bigger and stronger horse at the riding school. first when i lost the weight again, i went back to riding my favorite pony, cause he sure shouldn't suffer the slightest due to my issues and bad eating habbits!


 

THIS IS HORRIBLE!

That horse is clearly too small and well packing that much weight around is clearly not going to do any good for the horse.


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## Gidget

Golden Horse said:


> Oh, I just watched your video, I have no idea how much that man weighs but it is far more than 260 pounds for sure, and yes I feel sorry for that horse.
> 
> THIS is 260 pounds, riding. The horse is 15.2 hh
> 
> training test aug - YouTube


 
This video is much better. I don't feel as sorry for this horse because it looks like it is content with the rider and seems to be carrying her well


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Granted, if she's a P*** poor rider, her weight is not going to help but I've seen skinny minnies who ride so poorly that I cringe when I see them beating their horses backs to pieces because they can't be bothered to learn to ride properly.
> 
> It's the same principal as people hollering, "OMG You're not going to ride that horse in that SPADE bit are you?" when I've had friends bloody their horse's mouths with a fat, smooth snaffle.
> 
> If you are not a good rider you can hurt the horse, doesn't matter how big or small you are. So if you're going to comment on anything then comment on her skills as a rider and suggest more training for her, that's more to the issue than her weight.


This!!! I'm not a skinny minnie myself. Right now I'm about 160. At my heaviest I was just over 200 lbs. Even at that weight I was starting colts & training for the public. Weight is not so much of an issue, it's riding skill. I'd much rather see a 250 lb well balanced, good rider than a 125 lb flopping around unbalanced rider and the horse they are on will feel the same. 

My hubby (who is not fat at all) is a solid 220 lbs of muscle. His regular mount is a 14hh quarter horse. He isn't the world's best rider, he'd never win a horsemanship class, but he is balanced & sits a horse well. His mare would have a fit with a poorly balanced smaller rider, I'd love to use her for beginner lessons but she won't tolerate beginner mistakes. 

I think it would do you well, OP to be a bit more open minded.


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## Rachel1786

Golden Horse said:


> Oh, I just watched your video, I have no idea how much that man weighs but it is far more than 260 pounds for sure, and yes I feel sorry for that horse.
> 
> THIS is 260 pounds, riding. The horse is 15.2 hh
> 
> training test aug - YouTube


I just have to say that you do not look 260 at all! 

I don't have anything to say to the OP that hasn't already been said, I have no tolerance for judgmental people!


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## Tianimalz

This whole thing seems a bit off topic... thought it was supposed to be advice on how to help the horse? Don't care about the rider personally, not like posts on the internet are going to change what she does. Feel bad for the hafie cross though.


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## ponyboy

Plymus said:


> i do not have sympathy for her, no. i don't see why i should. she is not fat because of some rare illness, she is fat because of what she eats, and riding is after all not a human right.


I've always been skinny - the few times I've managed to get up to my ideal weight, it melts right back off again. So I believe weight issues are not 100% controllable. Having said that, this woman should recognize that perhaps she's too heavy for her horse. The horse shouldn't have to suffer because she might get offended if somebody says something.


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## caleybooth

My brother-in-law is a solid 280. He rides a 15hh quarter horse. He's a competitive roper, so she gets ridden hard. I don't believe 260 is too heavy for a horse!


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## bsms

ponyboy said:


> ...The horse shouldn't have to suffer because she might get offended if somebody says something.


Yet the reality is that she KNOWS her weight. And telling her she is too fat for a horse won't make her more likely to back off.

Suggesting another horse that you think is more suitable, for non-weight reasons, or trying to help her ride more balanced MIGHT work. Maybe suggesting an activity she could do with her horse that involves less stress than jumping would help. Or suggesting a better saddle (such as a western saddle, which distributes weight over a larger area), or checking the saddle fit, etc.

But jumping in her chili and attacking her? That won't work with more than 1 person in 20, if that. 

From the OP: "calling a fat person fat is taboo". No, it isn't. Most have been called fat many times. It isn't taboo, but neither is it effective. And attacking her anonymously, online, in a forum that tries to be friendly and supportive? That isn't helpful, either.


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## QOS

Wow....sham wow at that. 

Most Arabians are the toughest horses on the face of the planet...even for their smaller size they can out do just about every horse as far as endurance. I would think a Halfi and an Arabian would be pretty darn tough. 

I am certainly not a light weight rider like I was when I was young. I am certainly a chunky bunky riding a 15 hh Quarter Horse...working on doing endurance with him. I just got a heart monitor for him and he pulses down at the same rate as my buddy's Arabian mare so no, I am not too heavy for The Biscuit...should I weigh less? Certainly but I have seen some pretty BIG cowboys riding horses that average sized horses and doing just fine.

It is never good to attack anyone on forums...have some tolerance - you may find yourself in her shoes one day...because I thought I would always be the "skinny" cousin...well, I am not!


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## Tayz

Wow this threads turned pretty harsh, i just wanted to say, I hope that the rider realises for herself that what shes doing is not right, nothing really anyone else can do. You can try talking to her but it probably wont work. Its her horse, not yours so sadly you cant do anything about it.
Trust me, My favourite horse on lease came back to my pony club yesterday and his hips are sticking out, hes a mess, blood on his leg and im furious, but hes not mine, so the only thing I can do is give him food, clean him up and look after him. I dont know the full story of what happened when he went back to his owners on holiday so I cant judge them.
What I'm trying to say here is just to judge people ay. Im on the verge of anerexic all the time, I have issues keeping my weight on, hell I probably eat more then large people eat in a day just to keep my weight on. I try to ride a horse to the best of my ability but even I'm careful not to hurt them. Anyone can hurt a horse; no matter the size.


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## Saddlebag

As long as she can get on the horse unaided, ie with no one holding the horse or boosting on her it's her call. I am not an enabler. I don't get why obese people think it's ok to get on a horse with no regard to what it might do to the horse.


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## bsms

The gelding in my avatar weighs 830, but was probably around 750-775 while a working ranch horse. At the ranch, he would carry a 200+ lb man with a 40 lb saddle plus gear for a 12 hour day - so around 260 lbs/770 lb horse (34%) for 8-12 hours in the mountains. The rider was balanced, the work wasn't high impact, and he doesn't seem to have suffered any harm from his work there.

I'd prefer to see folks get away from discussing fat as if it were something the horse cared about. Horses care about weight and balance and synchronization. They can distinguish between saddles that fit, which ones distribute weight well, etc - but they do NOT look at an approaching person and squeal, "OMG! It's fat BSMS! Why can't it be his 13 year old daughter?"

In the interest of trying to steer this away from comments about body types, and towards what matters to horses, I offer this thread someone posted a while back as food for thought:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-hea...effecting-horses-soundness-96747/#post1164700

Let's try to obey the rules of the forum:

"Please exercise what we call conscientious etiquette when you post. This means that you keep the objective of preserving the forum's friendly, fun, helpful environment in the forefront of your mind as you write your message.

If your post is nasty, condescending, rude, etc., regardless of how subtle, and whether shrouded in the form of opinion or otherwise, it is subject to be removed and your access to the Horse Forum may be restricted.

This applies to the Critique forum as well. People come here because they are passionate about their horses. Naturally, a biting critique about an animal a person is passionate about can be very hurtful. While a request for critique implicitly invites criticism, the sensitive nature of such topics is all the more reason to post conscientiously, keeping the other person's feelings in mind.

Our interest in preserving the nature of the community trumps our interest in allowing everyone to share their opinion here. If you can't share your opinion in such a way so as to preserve the friendly, fun, helpful nature of the community, don't."

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-rules-announcements/conscientious-etiquette-policy-6069/


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## BarrelWannabe

Dream: Amen

Why is it that people who weigh what they weigh, are judged on their abilities?
I'm 10 pounds shy of what this person weighs and my horse LOVES anything that I do with him. Whether it be riding or not.

Have you asked this woman why she weighs 260? No, I highly doubt that. You probably don't have the gull to do so. 
I weigh 250 because 1. I don't eat the healthiest of foods, I get that. But 2. I have a HORRIBLE metabolism. Its part of my genetics. Maybe she has a metabolism/thyroid disorder. Its not JUST her eating either too much or unhealthy food. 
Beauty and ability isn't just skin deep. It's what is inside that counts. This woman could have the heart of a champion and people who see her as fat feel she isn't up to par for riding. 
There is no such thing as a weight limit to get on a horse. It isn't right to think that there is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS

Plymus said:


> whenever she sits a she can't sit a trot without bumping around, and as if
> that isn't enough the saddle is also way too small for her butt. half her butt actually hangs over the back
> of the seat, but she can't get a bigger saddle cuz the horses back is too short.


This is her problem, she does not have balance, and that is not related to her weight, as many heavier riders have great balance. 



Plymus said:


> shouldn't we be a little selfconscious about our weight?


How do you know that she is not? And self conscious would be correct, it's not your business and based on the views you expressed here, you would do well to remember that.


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## Starlite

if this is true, and she is putting the horse down, that is sad.


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## Oxer

AlexS said:


> as many heavier riders have great balance


i don't suppose we are talking about "heavy" riders though... i think it's about an obese rider. and i would love to know the true clinical facts about how much more balanced an overweight rider would be as opposed to a rider in their ideal weight for their body height. 
Especially if we are talking about someone whom is jumping. Which this person is/was. Walk, trot, canter is one thing... but jumping is an entirely different situation.


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## raisinandelana

Everyone has had some good replies. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in while I was snooping through here. When I first got my horse raisin a few months ago I was at 260. He is a 15.2hh qh tenn walker. He is green broke (since I bought him) and he has. No problem carrying me now I'm down to 240 and there is no difference from when I was 20lbs heavier. It depends on the horse I think. But to judge someone on their weight .... don't. Simple as that. I would rather be fat and happy than anorexic and hungry.


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## CCH

I think there are far worse fates for a horse than to carry around a fat rider for a few hours a week. (Especially one who bothers to seek professional advice on saddle fitting etc) That horse is lucky that it doesn't have to "work" in the sense that horses used to (and still do in many countries)

It sounds like this woman cares for her horse, and probably does not intend any harm. I think, as long as the horse is well fed and healthy enough to perform his duties, then there isn't a problem. Now I'm not saying work an injured animal, but a horse with some *manageable* issue usually doesn't have the luxury of being a pasture puff.

OP you are entitled to whatever opinion you want and you don't have to like everybody, but I hope you have the tact to treat this woman respectfully. If her riding bothers you that much, it would be far more helpful if you invited her to take her horse with you & yours on a leading walk, or to work on showmanship, or even invite her to practice walking jump courses. Maybe if you spend some time with her, you can ease some information her way or suggest things to read etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ItzKayley

Speed Racer said:


> Unless you're willing and able to take on the horse she currently has, there's nothing you can do.
> 
> She KNOWS she's fat, and someone else telling her isn't going to suddenly make her realize she's too big for the horse. All you're going to do is make her angry.
> 
> If the seller of the new horse has no qualms about taking money from this woman, then it's on them.
> 
> You're not the Fat Police, and unless you plan to buy up every horse she looks at so she can't get her hands on it, you're out of luck.


Sorry to say, I laughed at 'fat police', im sure everyone wants to be one. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses

ItzKayley said:


> Sorry to say, I laughed at 'fat police', im sure everyone wants to be one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


YOu would be wrong.


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## TaMMa89

OP, if you're worried about the horse's well-being, how about suggesting this woman to have a bigger horse instead? I see what you're trying to say but bringing it out in judging tone doesn't very probably help, especially if you can't know if the problems really stem from her weight.


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## tinyliny

I am a heavy rider (200). I try to keep that in mind when I ride and only ride horses that I feel will be comfortable carrying me. I ride quietly, but that doens't mean I will ride my friend's old 14 hh arab mare , who has sore joints. It wouldn't be fair.

Fat police, fat taboos and political correctness aside, if you are a heavy rider, (like me), then you must take that into account in your riding. You must chose wisely the horse, you must learn to carry your weight and you must never ride in an ill fitting saddle. You cannot pretend that these things arent there and don't matter. I cannot pretend that I am not fat. _*I*_ take care of theses things, so that no other person has to be in the embarassing position of feeling that they need to say something to protect the horse, but cannot due to the unacceptability of saying anything about a person being too fat to ride a certain horse. As a heavier rider, it is MY responsibility to be fair to the horse I ride or don't ride. 

It sounds like the woman the OP is seeing is someone who may be keeping her head in the sand about her weight and the realities of how that ties into horses. That is tough for an outsider to watch, especially one who cares about horses.

The only thing I can suggest is if the OP kept any discussions with this rider on the wellbeing of the horse and what could possible be done to make it feel better, without ever mentioning the weight of the rider, the rider herself may volunteer this.


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## THN

I am 160 lbs, 6'4", and have always been the same build and therefore have no experience with fat of any kind. Therefore i have no eexperience trying to loose that weight. and therefore no right to judge someone by their size because i haven't been there to experience how hard it can be. But, that being said, i think that if someone is obese they have a responsibility to their horse to make a reasonable effort to loose the extra weight. All the while they should be working to ride balanced just as i should be working to ride balanced. If for some reason the weight stays then it is the responsibility of the rider to asses their own weight in regards to the abilities of the horse they ride. Yes, some people may be not admit that their weight + lack of skill is contributing to the horses problems. hopefully they realize it soon and are able to take that into account and make adjustments as needed.

OP- If you feel so strongly that what this lady is doing is abuse then talk to the SPCA. But, i warn you now that if you do you will find yourself with enemies at your barn and probably very little will come of it. I shouldn't expect someone to live up to my standards unless they have willingly accepted them. yah, it's hard. But until they have asked for my judgment I must keep it to myself. Hopefully if the horses injuries were caused by her she figures it our soon.


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## lauraetco

I didn't read any of the replies but I would suggest asking her to offer the horse, for free, to someone who is able to put more time than she can into working with and training the horse. Tell her you don't want to see it put down and that maybe they just weren't a good match.

As for her "new horse", I'm not sure there is anything you can do. Actually, maybe you can find a larger/stronger horse that is up for sale and tell her she would look good on it. Don't say anything to her about her weight though!

Good luck and let us know what happens.


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## its lbs not miles

There apparently are a lot of misconceptions about what overloading a horse amounts to and it's effect on the animal. Several years ago there was a study done and not having kept a copy of it (contrary to what my children say, I don't save everything :lol I would not have commented here. However, thanks to the wonders of the internet I was able to locate information on it. I've included the link to information from the study here. I'd also posted this on another thread that was dedicated to heavier riders, since there was an interest there on how much should a horse carry. Being a distance rider I was taught long ago the rule for long distance riders...it's not the the Kilometers it's the kilograms (most of Europe is metric :lol. So you keep your load as light as possible. That's why I have 1300+ lb draft crosses for my long distance riding. Not because I'm heavy (69", 158lbs....today :lol, but because I can carry more supplies/equipment.

Ohio State University Agricultural Technical Institute did a study.
To read about it check out:

http://www.ker.com/library/EquineRev...pdate/SU41.pdf

It was an interesting study and certainly worth reading for those who really want to know the effects of what happens with their horse when they ride.

Now, don't read this and think that a persons weight should keep them from ever being able to ride. I think everyone who has the desire and ability to ride should be able to enjoy riding. While it's true the study shows heavy people shouldn't ride lighter horses, I can assure you that there are horses out there that could carry virtually anyone who has the ability to pull themself into the saddle on it's back. Most of the draft horse of today originated as war horses for armor clad knights. e.g. A 2,000 lb Shire, Percheron or Belgium can carry a 350 lb rider on a 35 lb saddle (girth, etc...) and still have 15 lbs to spare before even reaching 20% of their weight.
And before you think that sounds stupid looking (for those who have never seen it). The sight, sound or feeling of riding a large Percheron (I'm sure it's the same for a Shire, etc....but I'll go from my first hand experience) galloping across a field is like nothing else with the power that it conveys and that you feel when you're the rider. No light riding horse can match that. (and most of your larger horses are easier keepers too :lol

Anyway, you can read the report and draw your own conclusion. About 100 years ago the US Cav (they rode horses back then :lol set their desired load limit at 20% (although it was more likely 18-23 % in practice). They didn't have the ability to do the metabolic tests we can do today, but it seems that whatever they used to figure it out, they apparently got it right. That's not to say that a horse can't carry 30% (it can), but as these test show there are effects that we can't see and they can last beyond the next day, so there should be a recovery time (which could mean you might be riding less and recovering more). The heavier the load over 20%, the more it impacts your horse (although for parts of the study 25% tested ok, just not all of the it).

I know that people are not going to change their minds about whatever they think works. I'm only providing the results of a study that addresses the amount of weight horses carry and some of the results from these loads. Each person has to make their own choices when it concerns their horse. Just don't make the mistake of looking at your horse and saying "he/she looks happy, so it's fine". A horse will run itself to death for it's rider. I've seen a horse endure a saddle that fit so poorly that the gullet rested on it's withers and left a constant sore (that the rider would cover with the saddle blanket thinking it protected it). And yet that poor animal would stoically stand to be saddle and, without complaint, be ridden for hours doing whatever the rider required of it. Was the horse fine? No. And nothing I could say was going to change that persons mind. A horse can bond to a person just like a dog and will often endure much without complaint.

Ok, let the bullets fly....I'm in my bunker :lol:


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## Oxer

^^^ that's a very interesting read. Thank you for posting that!


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## Angelina1

The only problem I have is that the lady has indicated that she wishes to destroy the current horse - has she had professional advice?? ie the vet!! out and the horse has major problems that warrents putting down - OP do you know the medical condition of the horse have you spoken to this lady about this?? - instead of blaming her weight and her riding abilities, try and talk to her and find out why she feels the need to put down her current horse, there maybe a reason that you are not hearing. 

Yes the video you posted was shocking and "not funny and all" but the video the GH posted was excellent, showing that larger riders can be balanced as any other rider. 

No matter what your size is if you have incorrect fitting tack or are unbalanced in the saddle you will cause harm to the horse. I have to agree with the others here that you comments were a bit harsh. 

Oh!! and I know of a lady that is not on the skinny side that breeds and rides shetlands in shows and they have no problems with her height or weight!!


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## Clementine

I agree with the OP. Regardless of whether being fat is your fault, it is your fault if you choose to inflict damage onto another living creature. And let me be clear: If your weight is that out of control, and you still get on a horse, you are CHOOSING to cause them pain.

In my opinion, at the very least, horses under 15 hands should not be expected to carry over 200 pounds. I don't care if they CAN carry that much, the point is that they SHOULDN'T. If you are over 200 pounds, you would ideally ride a 16+ hand horse that has a stockier build, including a strong loin coupling with the LS joint well in front of the point of hip, short & thick cannon bones, and average to fairly upright pasterns. 

Riding IS a privilege, not a right. Horses didn't ask to be captured and domesticated, and therefore didn't ask for us to pay for them. They are NOT in our debt just because we pay to keep them. 

If you're too fat to ride a horse without causing them pain, you're too fat to ride. Either fix it, or stay off the horse. If you accept the fact that you shouldn't ride, and try to lose weight, but can't, THEN I'll feel sorry for you, but I still wouldn't change my opinion that you shouldn't ride.


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## bsms

Clementine said:


> ...In my opinion, at the very least, horses under 15 hands should not be expected to carry over 200 pounds. I don't care if they CAN carry that much, the point is that they SHOULDN'T. If you are over 200 pounds, you would ideally ride a 16+ hand horse that has a stockier build, including a strong loin coupling with the LS joint well in front of the point of hip, short & thick cannon bones, and average to fairly upright pasterns.
> 
> Riding IS a privilege, not a right. Horses didn't ask to be captured and domesticated, and therefore didn't ask for us to pay for them. They are NOT in our debt just because we pay to keep them...


First, lots of scientists disagree with your view. The height of the horse is not a solution, and lots of smaller horses can carry a 200 lb person without pain or discomfort. If you add a saddle, most men will top 200 lbs, and a great many men top 200 lbs anyways. Should men be banned from riding? 

With saddle & gear, I hit 210+, and have a gelding who weighs 830 lbs. And no, he does not suffer ANYTHING from me riding. I've been riding him 4-5 times a week for nearly a year, and I'm also a beginner rider who is learning balance - yet Trooper has no problem with pain. 

I also rode a 750+ lb Arabian mare many times as she was learning to carry people. She sometimes had awkward balance, but she quickly learned how to adjust. At no time did I ever see any sign of pain or discomfort - and I had just started riding then!

I'll post more when I get back home. But I'll also say that I believe horses DO owe us something. We care for them, protect them, and give them vastly superior lives to running loose - in fact, horses set loose around here usually die quickly. We have a two-way relation. I joke about having "I work for food" tatooed on my horses, but they seem to understand.

I protect them, provide food & water, provide medical care when they would otherwise die in the wild, etc. I do have every right to expect them to do something other than look pretty. :evil:


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## Speed Racer

Clementine said:


> They are NOT in our debt just because we pay to keep them.


Of course they are, whether you think so or not.

They, like dogs, have made a bargain with humanity by becoming domesticated. Part of that domestication includes being protected, fed, and sheltered from the elements, which in turn means they need to give something back.

Not everyone rides, but those who_ want_ to should be able to without someone pointing a finger at them because they don't fit the 'ideal' of the perfect rider. :?

I'm a chubster, and my trail horse is a 14.2 h Arab who probably weighs in the range of 800-850 lbs. He has no back or leg problems, and can go far longer under saddle than I can ride. 

You have to look at the BUILD of the horse, not just their height and weight. A stocky, 13.3 h pony can carry a heck of a lot more weight than a 16.2 delicate, rail thin TB.


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## its lbs not miles

Clementine said:


> I agree with the OP. Regardless of whether being fat is your fault, it is your fault if you choose to inflict damage onto another living creature. And let me be clear: If your weight is that out of control, and you still get on a horse, you are CHOOSING to cause them pain.
> 
> In my opinion, at the very least, horses under 15 hands should not be expected to carry over 200 pounds. I don't care if they CAN carry that much, the point is that they SHOULDN'T. If you are over 200 pounds, you would ideally ride a 16+ hand horse that has a stockier build, including a strong loin coupling with the LS joint well in front of the point of hip, short & thick cannon bones, and average to fairly upright pasterns.
> 
> Riding IS a privilege, not a right. Horses didn't ask to be captured and domesticated, and therefore didn't ask for us to pay for them. They are NOT in our debt just because we pay to keep them.
> 
> If you're too fat to ride a horse without causing them pain, you're too fat to ride. Either fix it, or stay off the horse. If you accept the fact that you shouldn't ride, and try to lose weight, but can't, THEN I'll feel sorry for you, but I still wouldn't change my opinion that you shouldn't ride.


 
It's not actually the height of a horse that is most important. It's the size. e.g. a 15.2 hd QH can often be a heavier (healthy weight), stronger, more robust animal (larger cannon bone, better muscled, etc...), better able to carry more than a 16 hd TB (it's only 2" difference). A healthy 14.2 Dales pony probably weighs more and can carry more than most light riding horses that are a hand taller. That's why the study tested at weight % and looked at the overal build of the animal, not just the height. (My 16 hd mare weighs 100lbs more than my 16.2 hd filly, so she could carry 20lbs more....if my filly was a mare and being ridden)
As the study showed a light riding horses can carry 30% of their weight successfully. And if the excersize was light the horse should recover to it's pre light exersize state of health within 48 hours. Longer working times or heavier % would probably require longer recovery time, but they didn't test beyond the 30% of weight or apparently beyond 24 and 48 hours post exersize time period.
I know a LOT of people who don't agree with the results. Because to acknowledge it would mean they are putting more on their animals than they want to admit. It's not for me to say. As I said earlier. It's a persons choice as to what they subject their animals to. There is no law that says you can't run your horse to death or have it carry 50% of it's own weight. They're allowed to race horses before they are 24 months old, even though their knee joints haven't solidified yet (let alone all the joints highier up). Doesn't mean they're not damaging the animal. They're just not breaking the law. So it's all just what you're willing to subject your animal to.
As I said yesterday, there is always a breed of horse that will produce an animal capable of carring almost any human, no matter what that person weighs (providing they can pull themself into the saddle), without being too heavy a % for the horse. A 350 lb person on 2,000 lb Percheron, even with 405 lbs of saddle/tack, won't be at the 20% point. Of course a 2,500 lb Percheron (Shire, Belguim, etc....) could carry even more.

And off the subject. I can say from personal experience that there is something incredible about galloping or even trotting on a large Percheron. The power and thundering sound is not something you can get on a light riding horse )


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## bsms

Actually, some studies have indicated draft horses have LESS load bearing capability than non-drafts. They were bred for pulling, not for riding.

Frankly, anyone with a little common sense and a desire to understand their horse can figure it out. Does your horse nearly fall over every time you mount? Time to take a hint. Does your horse hollow his back, have his neck up and pin his ears? Time to think - saddle, my riding, or the horse?

If the situation is borderline, try sitting the trot. Your horse gets ****y then, but is fine when posting? Again, think saddle, my riding, or the horse. In my case, while learning, my 50+ year old body was so stiff I couldn't sit the trot without bothering my horse - so I posted, and SOMETIMES sat the trot. With time, my body loosened up, it became possible for me to ride with a more correct position - and now Trooper and I can sit the trot. And Trooper can go longer than I can. I get sore before he does!

I'm learning catering, and Trooper is learning at the same time. Left lead, left circle, western saddle - no signs of irritation. Same with an Aussie saddle (less load bearing area)? Mild irritation for 2-3 strides until I find the rhythm. The its ears forward, head lowered, and he'll go until I ask him to stop.

Right lead? Don't know - he refuses to take it. So we've started working on his flexibility, because he obviously finds cantering on a right lead uncomfortable. When I ride him this afternoon, there will be very little cantering and lots of circles at a walk or slow trot.

Just watch and listen to your horse! Based on my limited experience, most horses won't get ****y just because. I have met a lesson horse whose default position is ****y, but he'll become willing if you ride him right. He's just used to riders who don't care.

This:

"*I very much doubt there is any scientific way to calculate (weight-carrying ability), or if anyone has done so," *says equine physiologist Karen Gellman, DVM, PhD, of the Department of Biomedical Sciences in the Section of Anatomy at Cornell University's College of Veterinary Medicine. "*Seems to me it is a pretty de facto situation. The animal votes with his feet if the load is unacceptable." *
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-hea...fecting-horses-soundness-96747/#ixzz1bzoQlv8c
​


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## its lbs not miles

bsms said:


> Actually, some studies have indicated draft horses have LESS load bearing capability than non-drafts. They were bred for pulling, not for riding.
> 
> Frankly, anyone with a little common sense and a desire to understand their horse can figure it out. Does your horse nearly fall over every time you mount? Time to take a hint. Does your horse hollow his back, have his neck up and pin his ears? Time to think - saddle, my riding, or the horse?
> 
> If the situation is borderline, try sitting the trot. Your horse gets ****y then, but is fine when posting? Again, think saddle, my riding, or the horse. In my case, while learning, my 50+ year old body was so stiff I couldn't sit the trot without bothering my horse - so I posted, and SOMETIMES sat the trot. With time, my body loosened up, it became possible for me to ride with a more correct position - and now Trooper and I can sit the trot. And Trooper can go longer than I can. I get sore before he does!
> 
> I'm learning catering, and Trooper is learning at the same time. Left lead, left circle, western saddle - no signs of irritation. Same with an Aussie saddle (less load bearing area)? Mild irritation for 2-3 strides until I find the rhythm. The its ears forward, head lowered, and he'll go until I ask him to stop.
> 
> Right lead? Don't know - he refuses to take it. So we've started working on his flexibility, because he obviously finds cantering on a right lead uncomfortable. When I ride him this afternoon, there will be very little cantering and lots of circles at a walk or slow trot.
> 
> Just watch and listen to your horse! Based on my limited experience, most horses won't get ****y just because. I have met a lesson horse whose default position is ****y, but he'll become willing if you ride him right. He's just used to riders who don't care.
> 
> This:
> 
> "*I very much doubt there is any scientific way to calculate (weight-carrying ability), or if anyone has done so," *says equine physiologist Karen Gellman, DVM, PhD, of the Department of Biomedical Sciences in the Section of Anatomy at Cornell University's College of Veterinary Medicine. "*Seems to me it is a pretty de facto situation. The animal votes with his feet if the load is unacceptable." *
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-hea...fecting-horses-soundness-96747/#ixzz1bzoQlv8c​


Actually Percherons, Shires, Belgiums, and I'm sure some others, were all originally war horses. An armored man required large, powerful animals. Just chain mail and a helmet could be over 50lbs. Plate could be more. Jousting plate can be over 80lbs. Add in a 40lb or more saddle, at least two heavy weapons, very possibly some armor for the horse along with a 155+ man (we'll go light on the man's weight) and you're going to have over 300lbs on the horse. Yes, these drafts started out as specially cared for, very expensive, ridden horses. The armored tanks of their day.

Check your breeds. These animals became "pulling" animals because the need for armored soldiers started declining, so the need for very large mounts went away. Buy the end of the 1700s a breast plate was about as much as you would find and that lasted into the 1800's.
The era of the armored knight ended, but the breeds of horse were still around and could be put to good use doing other work. All horses can pull more than they can carry. And as a flat percentage based measurement of efficiency one horse can pull a better % than two horses can. So it made good sense to take a large horse that could pull more alone than two lighter horses could pull together.
Having ridden drafts and light horses I've found that the drafts ride extremely well. They're not going to win any Derby's or make good cattle horses, but have two or three people mount up on a couple of these ancient war horses and come galloping across a field at you and you'll get a real appreciation for why Medieval heavy cavalry could sweep a battle field during it's hayday.


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## its lbs not miles

This:

"*I very much doubt there is any scientific way to calculate (weight-carrying ability), or if anyone has done so," *says equine physiologist Karen Gellman, DVM, PhD, of the Department of Biomedical Sciences in the Section of Anatomy at Cornell University's College of Veterinary Medicine. "*Seems to me it is a pretty de facto situation. The animal votes with his feet if the load is unacceptable." *
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-hea...fecting-horses-soundness-96747/#ixzz1bzoQlv8c​[/QUOTE]

IF the good doctor read that study she would have found that they were not calculating the "weight-carrying ability". They were measuring the effect on the horses from carrying certain % of their body weight. That is something that can be measured and in this case, was measure. Granted they could have worked the horses longer, used greater weight %, measured beyond 48 hours for how long effects lasted. But they didn't, so we only have the information they got from the limitations they set. But I'd say that based on what they found it only got worse as the % went up.

Many animals vote with, what we humans call, their heart. Like I said before. A horse will run itself to death for you. Even though it's hurting, it keeps running until it no long can. Then it'll colapse and die. I've witnessed horses suffer (no one is going to tell me that a horse with a raw wither -skin rubbed off- is not hurting while wearing the saddle that give him that) without complaint or reaction. Just continued on devotedly. Behaving happily in the pasture. Standing to be saddle with that same saddle. While some, hopefully most, horses will do something to let you know when something isn't right, after things I've seen in my soon to be 43 years of riding no one is going to make me believe that a horse won't "suffer silently" (and suffer a lot) for it's rider.


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## bsms

I'm not attacking draft horses. However, they went a long time without being bred for riding as primary.

This is what I was referring to:

"Conformation analyst Deb Bennett, PhD, of the Equine Studies Institute, notes that the primary requirement of a riding horse is to bear a rider's weight on the freespan of his back without strain, and that certain conformational qualities can make that easier for the animal. In her well-regarded book Principles of Conformation Analysis, she offers the following wish-list for weight-carrying ability:

* An excellent loin coupling--broad, short, smooth, and strong, yet flexible for coiling. The circumference about the loin and groin should be about the same as the heart-girth;
* A short to medium-length back;
* A neck set high on the shoulder, with a shallow vertebral curve at the base of the neck;
* Moderately high withers, with a peak that lies well behind the horse's elbows;
* A pelvis that constitutes at least 30% of the body length and slopes from 18-22 degrees; and
* A total body weight of less than 1,450 pounds (658 kg).

Bennett suggests that weight-carrying ability, as demonstrated by endurance horses and military trials, is primarily a function of body breadth, especially over the top of the loins, rather than a function of height. "Few tall horses--over 16 hands--are broad enough while at the same time staying within the ideal weight limit," she writes. "Potential soundness goes way down as weight exceeds 1,450 pounds (658 kg). Consistently, winners of the old military-style endurance rides were men mounted on broad-backed horses that were just tall enough to fit them."

Interestingly, Bennett makes a case against massive size being the best criterion for weight-carrying capacity. "Draft horses (are not) particularly adapted to bearing weight; huge size does not confer weight-carrying ability. Although they have increased the animal's weight through selective breeding, draft-horse producers have been unable to obtain a proportional increase in bone," she writes. "No large draft horse possesses eight inches (20 cm) of bone (bone means the circumference of the forelimb measured just below the animal's carpus, or knee) per 1,000 pounds (454 kg) of weight; by this standard, a 2,000-pound (907-kg) drafter would have to have a 16-inch (40-cm) cannon/tendon circumference. Statistics instead show that modern draft horses average only five inches (12.7) of bone per 1,000 pounds, or 10 inches (25.4 cm) of bone on a 2,000-pound horse. This is fine, so long as the adult animal is never expected to work at suspended gaits, but does most of his work at a walk.

"However, since suspension--thrusting the body clear of the ground--is a necessary quality in riding horses that trot or canter, they cannot be massive and be expected to remain sound."

Her opinions are borne out by historians, who tell us that the mounts of medieval knights were not the towering Shire-type beasties we envision, but stocky, short-ish equines averaging about 15 to 15.2 hands."

I don't own it, but I may buy her book:

Amazon.com: Principles Of Conformation Analysis Volume I (Volume 1) (Volume 1) (9781929164059): Deb Bennett PhD: Books

There is a good review on the size of war horses in Wiki:

Horses in the Middle Ages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also this:

"So what breed of horse was this indomitable destrier? Equine historians have debated this topic for years. Some believe the war horses were huge beasts standing 18 hands tall, ancestors of breeds like the Shire, Belgian, and Percheron. More recent evidence, however, suggests that the medieval war horses were of average height – 14 or 15 hands, and while they were certainly stout and muscular, they didn’t have nearly the girth of a modern draft horse.

How do they know this? Saddles, armor, and other items the horses wore have been measured and compared with modern equine equipment. The old fittings indicate that these legendary steeds were about the same size as the modern stock horse, perhaps comparable to a muscular Quarter Horse of foundation breeding.

The modern horse breeds that best fit the descriptions of the ancient war horse of Europe are the Friesian, the Holstein, and the Norman. A sub-breed of the Norman, the Norman Cob, is most likely the closest descendant of the mount the knight rode into battle."

War Horses and Medieval Knights | Horseman Magazine

Also here on the weight of battle armor (between 45 and 55 lbs - I carried more than that in Afghanistan):

Arms and Armor—Common Misconceptions and Frequently Asked Questions | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art


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## Golden Horse

its lbs not miles said:


> Actually Percherons, Shires, Belgiums, and I'm sure some others, were all originally war horses.



And that was how many hundreds of years ago? With due respect, when you see how much our modern breeds have changed in a very short time, then the changes in the big guys over that period of time can only be imagined. The more modern draft horses have been selected for their ability to pull, not their ability to carry a man in full armor across the battle field. 

I don't disagree that a draft or draft cross makes a good mount, but they are not the horses of old. 

When you are talking about weight carrying ability also consider the fact that all the wonderful British Ponies, were bred to be multi purpose work horses, able to carry an adult, or pack a large weight, pull a plow or a cart, and all on meager rations.


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## bsms

I've only got 4 years of riding, but my horses give lots of signals if they are not comfortable.

The gelding (see avatar) was ridden on a ranch where they wore a hole in his withers and spurred holes in his sides. When we got him, he was AFRAID to complain. He would suffer in silence out of fear. However, now that he knows he won't be hurt, he communicates a lot to anyone willing to listen.

Someone who rides a horse to death will get ample feedback from the horse before the horse dies. I don't believe it is that hard to read a horse. I can do it, and could do so within months of starting riding. They communicate, if we listen.


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## trailhorserider

Well, gee, I don't even know what to say. 

I weigh 200 lbs. myself. But I am critical on saddle fit. I have gone through probably 10 saddles before I got one that fit my Mustang well and never causes a white hair. My best friend, who is probably 60 lbs less than me, has had a lot of saddle fit issues and white hairs. So even smaller riders can have back problems with their horses.

What I wanted to say is that an Arab/Haflinger should be a strong little horse. Arabs in general have a good weight-carrying capacity and I would imagine Haflingers do too. I used to own two purebred Arabs and they carried me great. One was just a go-go-go machine. So I am guessing that saddle fit is the biggest problem with this horse. I feel sorry for the horse. And 260 is heavy. But I'm thinking saddle fit is what is causing the problem more than anything.

I guess if it were me and I wanted to save the horse's very life, I would tell the lady I really liked the horse and wanted to see if I could get him healed up and sound. And never say a single thing about her weight!

PS. I look for bone and hoof substance in a horse. I ride a 14.3 Mustang. Going by height alone you would assume he is tiny. But he is built like a tank, 1100 lbs and has feet and bone most Quarter Horses only dreamed of. I think he has a little draft in him. He is built very similar to a Haflinger.


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## Corporal

WOW!!! The OP sure hit a lot of nerves, here!! _(Interesting comments on the thread, however.)_
Regarding the issues, have you tried to find a buyer for her horse if she's serious about selling it? I'm sure, if, as you say it's a well trained Arab cross, someone might want him (her?-can't remember, the thread's pretty long now...)
I don't think the weight troubles you as much as bad stewardship. I agree that you could talk to the BO about this, *after you've talked to her.*
IPNM, glad you brought up history--here's a little gem for you. The US Cavalry accepted any volunteers during the Civil War to ride for them. Afterwards, they scaled back in numbers. An executive decision was made limiting the weight of the Cavalry (Indian War) soldier to no more than 150 pounds. They reckoned that the equipment would weigh up to 150 pounds, and, keeping in mind that they rode a lot ofhardy and good hoofed Mustang crosses between 15"hh and 16"hh (standard), they didn't want the horse to carry over 300 pounds on campaign.
I've been slow dieting myself, and I now weigh about 180. MY DH and DD both weigh more than me. We are planning a rigorous trail riding vacation in the Black Hills next summer. We all expect to all ride all 3 of our horses. My 5 yo QH gelding (15"2hh) is about 1,000 pounds, my 13 yo KMHSA mare (15"1hh) is about 1,100 and my 5 yo KMHSA gelding (16"3hh) is about 1,300 pounds. My DD is 31 yo, and grew up with our horses. Perhaps the length of time owning horses enables us to identify problems, but I make no excuses for our 2012 plans. The only weight loss guaranteed is gonna me MINE, since the other 2 aren't seriously dieting.


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## its lbs not miles

If by feed back you mean lathered in sweat, stumbling, struggling to keep up speed? Sure, but that's not "complaining". That's trying to continue to do what it's being asked to do.
If you really want a good example of a horse not complaining, but obviously in pain (and ultimately had to be put down), see if you can find some footage of Ruffian's last race. It was a matched race. 1975 she ran against the colt, Foolish Pleasure, who won the Kentucky Derby that year (and was beating him). You'll get to see a horse trying keep running after breaking both of her sesamoid bones. True, there were indications that something was very wrong and the jocky was making the effort to stop her, but she obviously wanted to keep running. Was she is pain? No doubt. But horses can and will endure a lot of pain for us. Usually it will go without notice, because it doesn't reach what the "horse" feels in the breaking point, so they don't give indications. Making it next to impossible for the rider to know. That's why it falls on the rider to understand that we might not be aware, because the horse can't say "hey, you know I'm a little sore from yesterdays workout....could you maybe give me a massage and perhaps today off". If it's something that minor, the horse will usually just do what we want. They want to please, so a little soreness is no big deal. And if they get the breaks so that it goes away we never know it was ever there.
My personal case in point about 39 years ago I rode a horse for the better part of a year (at least 7 months I guess) with a saddle that was not the right size for her. An old family McClellan that wasn't wide enough, so it pinched her. At the time I didn't know about proper saddle fit. She never complained, even though I know now that her back had to be terribly sore, because I rode her almost daily. It wasn't until another family member noticed how the saddle looked on her and told me that it wasn't the right size and that I was hurting her back. I took the saddle off lead her the 12 miles back home. That mare had suffered for months with a sore back, but never once refused run to great me when I came home from school. Nevery once didn't come up to be saddled when I came out with the saddle. Never one refused to be saddled or move away from me while being saddled. She was just a ordinary QH that raised from a filly. But because of my ignorance and thinking that I was doing right by switching to a lighter saddle for her I ended up causing her months of pain that she willingly endured. So it was back to the heavier, but well fitting saddle.
I've seen enough cases like these to feel sure that at some point all our horses suffer some at our hands. It's up to us to use some common sense in order to reduce it. I could have gotten another QH for my long distance riding and loaded it up with the extra gear that I carry now, instead of the light load I use to. But the old US Cav, common sense, and that school study, tells me that if I want to carry more creature comforts on my horseback trips, then I needed a larger horse. Thankfully there's no shortage of horses of all sizes out there. And always some in need of a good home.


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## bsms

" True, there were indications that something was very wrong and the jocky was making the effort to stop her, but she obviously wanted to keep running. Was she is pain? No doubt. But horses can and will endure a lot of pain for us."

Since her jockey was trying to stop her, she wasn't enduring pain for him. She did it for herself. SHE was excited, and SHE didn't want to stop.

Based on the studies I've seen and just what makes sense to me from a structural viewpoint, worrying about percentage of weight is an error. That is far to simplistic. There are lots of factors that go into the weight carrying capacity of a horse, and multiplying the horse's weight by 0.2 or 0.25 or 0.3 is just a first approximation - and a very crude one. Can a 1200 lb horse with a long, thin back carry more weight than an 800 lb horse with a short, thick back? Can it carry 50% more weight, based on percentages, than the smaller horse?

I doubt it. I'd rather focus on the horse's response while being ridden than a calculator. I'm at 25% of Trooper's weight every day I ride him. No sign of pain. I'll trust that for my decision. YMMV.


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## Golden Horse

bsms said:


> I doubt it. I'd rather focus on the horse's response while being ridden than a calculator.


Yes to this, based on all logic, calculations and people observations of pictures, everyone thought my Haflinger Fancy was a better match for me at me heaviest than Mr G there.

I was closest to them and know that Mr G has never struggled with my weight, wherever it was on the scale, but Fancy did. 

Listen to the horse and they will tell you, that is the trouble if we go back to the OP here, the horse IS complaining and the rider isn't listening, and she certainly wont listen of attacked by someone either.

Thinking about it probably the best thing to do is arrange for video lessons at your barn, it is a shocking thing to actually watch yourself ride, I recommend it to all, suddenly you can see what everyone else sees, and for me it's not a pretty pic, from the "Oh I see what you mean about letting my toes turn out" to Mmmm best by a bigger saddle, and I really need to watch my balance on the turns there


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## its lbs not miles

Golden Horse said:


> And that was how many hundreds of years ago? With due respect, when you see how much our modern breeds have changed in a very short time, then the changes in the big guys over that period of time can only be imagined. The more modern draft horses have been selected for their ability to pull, not their ability to carry a man in full armor across the battle field.
> 
> I don't disagree that a draft or draft cross makes a good mount, but they are not the horses of old.
> 
> When you are talking about weight carrying ability also consider the fact that all the wonderful British Ponies, were bred to be multi purpose work horses, able to carry an adult, or pack a large weight, pull a plow or a cart, and all on meager rations.


Actually, Percherons have continued to be ridden. Pulling was just added for them. Also lighter drafts like Friesians, although Friesian did had some additional blood added because of reduced numbers and breed number needing to be increased.

Yes, most notable I think is the Dales pony. Noted for hauling heavy loads of iron to the coast. But if you look at the size and weight of the Dales at 4.2 (with their 8-9" cannon bones) and then compare it to the weight of the load (up to just over 200lbs), it's not a huge %. Possibly close to 25%, and if they hauled a week to the coast they got about a week off (a round trip being loaded out, unloaded back). And no one is saying that they didn't suffer some effects from this. People have historically put more on equines than should have been. Equines have historically be rather tolerant of us.


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## Golden Horse

Actually the Highland Pony is probably the best example, carrying up to 300 pounds of dead stag down out of the mountains.

Most of those breeds are little power houses, short of limb and compact, with a density and substance of bone structure that makes them very good weight carriers. Also the little Icelandic Horse, a much slighter build but also capable of carrying great weights, and dumping their sorry butts on the floor is required.

Slightly off topic but, I think if you look at the relatively short space of time that draft and real heavy horses were used as riding horses in war, it is actually very tiny, compared to the length of time that the Mongolian type small horse and his descendants, and similar pony types have been used to go into battle and terrorize populations with.

I do realize that the people were a lot smaller as well, but the war horse as a fast moving method of attack has a longer history than the big horses, when talking about their role under saddle


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## tinyliny

Corporal said:


> WOW!!! The OP sure hit a lot of nerves, here!! _(Interesting comments on the thread, however.)_
> Regarding the issues, have you tried to find a buyer for her horse if she's serious about selling it? I'm sure, if, as you say it's a well trained Arab cross, someone might want him (her?-can't remember, the thread's pretty long now...)
> I don't think the weight troubles you as much as bad stewardship. I agree that you could talk to the BO about this, *after you've talked to her.*
> IPNM, glad you brought up history--here's a little gem for you. The US Cavalry accepted any volunteers during the Civil War to ride for them. Afterwards, they scaled back in numbers. An executive decision was made limiting the weight of the Cavalry (Indian War) soldier to no more than 150 pounds. They reckoned that the equipment would weigh up to 150 pounds, and, keeping in mind that they rode a lot ofhardy and good hoofed Mustang crosses between 15"hh and 16"hh (standard), they didn't want the horse to carry over 300 pounds on campaign.
> I've been slow dieting myself, and I now weigh about 180. MY DH and DD both weigh more than me. *We are planning a rigorous trail riding vacation in the Black Hills next summer. We all expect to all ride all 3 of our horses.* My 5 yo QH gelding (15"2hh) is about 1,000 pounds, my 13 yo KMHSA mare (15"1hh) is about 1,100 and my 5 yo KMHSA gelding (16"3hh) is about 1,300 pounds. My DD is 31 yo, and grew up with our horses. Perhaps the length of time owning horses enables us to identify problems, but I make no excuses for our 2012 plans. The only weight loss guaranteed is gonna me MINE, since the other 2 aren't seriously dieting.


 
Off topic, but take me with you! (sits up and begs like a dog)


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## its lbs not miles

Golden Horse said:


> Actually the Highland Pony is probably the best example, carrying up to 300 pounds of dead stag down out of the mountains.
> 
> Most of those breeds are little power houses, short of limb and compact, with a density and substance of bone structure that makes them very good weight carriers. Also the little Icelandic Horse, a much slighter build but also capable of carrying great weights, and dumping their sorry butts on the floor is required.
> 
> Slightly off topic but, I think if you look at the relatively short space of time that draft and real heavy horses were used as riding horses in war, it is actually very tiny, compared to the length of time that the Mongolian type small horse and his descendants, and similar pony types have been used to go into battle and terrorize populations with.
> 
> I do realize that the people were a lot smaller as well, but the war horse as a fast moving method of attack has a longer history than the big horses, when talking about their role under saddle


Forebearers of the Shire, for example, were with the Romans when they arrived in Britain. So they've been around for awhile. Didn't carry the massively armored men though. Pre medieval cav was indeed usually a light force.


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## Fellpony

take a little read on here to what ponies where expected to carry at a fast pace over long distances

Horses


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