# Head tossing has just started - help!!



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Many things can cause this, first thing I would look at is his teeth. 
You are going into winter so polled count for an allergy is lower so doubtful it is that.

Could it be that you are more demanding with your hands to get in on the bit? 

What you can do is to get a pair of tights ( panty hose) cut the legs off and stitch the panty part to his noseband so it is over his nose. This can sometimes help a head shaker.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Sometimes the lighter rein contact can aggravate a horse more than a firm/following contact. Try this. At the walk, switch between riding with a loose slack rein and a good following contact (no slack but not restricting the head movement either, think soft elbows) See which he responds better to. That will at least get you in the ballpark of where you contact needs to be to ride this horse in his comfort zone. This is all assuming this is completely behavioral of course.


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Many things can cause this, first thing I would look at is his teeth.
> You are going into winter so polled count for an allergy is lower so doubtful it is that.
> 
> Could it be that you are more demanding with your hands to get in on the bit?
> ...


THanks for your response, Foxhunter. 

I'm assuming that it's not teeth or allergies as it's not happening when his owner rides him. I also took him out on a trailride with his buddy yesterday and there was no headshaking out on the trail.

I have not been asking him to come onto the bit very much at all - my dressage coach always tells me "Forward before Round" and I actually spend most of our sessions together focusing on getting him forward! (he's lazy with me. :-/ )


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Sometimes the lighter rein contact can aggravate a horse more than a firm/following contact. Try this. At the walk, switch between riding with a loose slack rein and a good following contact (no slack but not restricting the head movement either, think soft elbows) See which he responds better to. That will at least get you in the ballpark of where you contact needs to be to ride this horse in his comfort zone. This is all assuming this is completely behavioral of course.


The idea that lighter rein contact can aggravate makes sense, MyBoyPuck. When I told his owner about the issue she said that he could be seeking support from my hands and getting frustrated when he doesn't find it. She told me to use the outside rein to "support" him and the inside rein to guide... I've had limited success with this. (FWIW, he is a young boy, just 6, and was only started about about 18 months ago by his current owner. )

I like your suggested approach of testing both loose rein and good following contact, I'll give it a go.

I have wondered if what I"m teaching him is that if he flings his head about I'll basically drop almost all contact... and so when I start to gather contact back up again he thinks "No way! I'd rather do my own thing, I'll give my head a good old shake and you can back right off again and leave me alone!". :? If that's the case, then the pattern might just be self-reinforcing, and it doesn't matter so much what the original cause was? Or does it??



I found this suggestion in an article on dealing with head tossing, I'd love to hear others thoughts on it:

"Fortunately there is one very simple and very effective exercise to work on this problem with your horse. You can do this with either one or two reins (and you should be prepared to “play” with the length, contact and anchor point a bit until you get the right feel). The next time your horse starts tossing its head, pickup on one rein, take out the slack and fasten your hand to the saddle, and I mean really anchor it there. With your hand anchored, the horse will keep bumping up against the contact as it throws its head around. When your horse finally quiets its head, even for a second, then immediately release. And then once again anchor and repeat the exercise until the horse realizes it’s far more comfortable to keep its head quiet than to be throwing it about. Do the exercise on one side for many repetitions until you can see the horse is really getting it, and then switch hands and work the other side the next time the head tossing begins.

The real trick to making this exercise work is that we have to educate our hands - otherwise the problem will come back. It’s all about timing and communication with the reins. You have to remain focused at all times on releasing/softening when his head is quiet."

(Full article is here: Charles Wilhelm Training _

My only concern with this approach is that I might be trying to suppress the symptom without addressing the cause. BUT I haven't yet worked out what the cause is!!! I wish that I could ride him in a session with my coach but they live at opposite ends of the universe. :-/


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

While it may be behavioural, never rule out that he has suddenly developed a problem with his teeth or that he is experiencing some sort of new discomfort from sore bars / gums / bruising from a particularly bad bump with the bit, a seed burrowing into the gums, etc. Also, horses hurt themselves head-tossing and this sets them up for more fretting and head-tossing. This seems paradoxical to us - why don't they just stop then? - but they're not reasoning, just reacting to discomfort. Could try giving the horse a break from the bit for a fortnight and riding in a hackamore - but do check for jagged tooth edges first.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I'd have the vet check his teeth, and I'd not use a bit and see how that goes. Also, I'd have his back checked out too, in case he is sore in that area.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Great point, Remali, sometimes horses head toss from back discomfort too!


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks for the ideas, SueC and Remali! 

I don't have care over this horse (in terms of anything other than grooming when i ride), or any tack options in terms of bridle alternatives, but I have mentioned the head tossing to his owner (who rides him the other 3 days a week). Next time I talk to her I'll ask her if she's had any issues with it, and if she has I'll pass on the suggestions. If she hasn't... well, then I'll be back to assuming that it's me in particular who is somehow causing the head tossing! :lol:


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

My mare is a headshaker caused by potassium spikes in new grass (or fertilised fields, clover etc), she is now completely symptom free by just feeding table salt (2 tbsp. a day). Worth a try and as one is the recommended level anyway it really isn't that big a dose.


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

That's interesting, Clava! We're just entering grass growing season here so that's an interesting coincidence. Though there's not much pasture that he has free access to at the moment... still... worth a thought.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Shui Long said:


> That's interesting, Clava! We're just entering grass growing season here so that's an interesting coincidence. Though there's not much pasture that he has free access to at the moment... still... worth a thought.



Worth a try and wont do any harm  removing clover and reducing grass and feeding salt has meant my mare has stopped the flicking and shaking which at one point I thought would mean her destruction as she was so distressed.


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Unlikely, but something to consider: Is it at all possible that he just suddenly developed head tossing syndrome. It can happen to any horse at any stage in its life, for no apparent reason. So it could be that he just got it? 
The best 'cure' though there isn't really one, is using a nose net. It reduces the air turbulence coming though the nose, and it has a pretty good success rate, though it doesn't work for everyone. 
It is most likely something that other members suggested, but just be aware that this can happen, and it could be pure coincidence that the syndrome started just when you bought him.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

CandyCanes said:


> Unlikely, but something to consider: Is it at all possible that he just suddenly developed head tossing syndrome. It can happen to any horse at any stage in its life, for no apparent reason. So it could be that he just got it?
> The best 'cure' though there isn't really one, is using a nose net. It reduces the air turbulence coming though the nose, and it has a pretty good success rate, though it doesn't work for everyone.
> It is most likely something that other members suggested, but just be aware that this can happen, and it could be pure coincidence that the syndrome started just when you bought him.


 
My Tb did indeed develop suddenly headshaking syndrome, she developed pain in the trigeminal nerve, for her salt was the cure, a nose net only acts as a comforter not a "cure".


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Head tossing can be caused by ear mites or ticks in the ears - worth getting the horse sedated and checked
Not sure what your weather season is like there but all the head tossing here at present is caused by tiny little biting flies that drive the horses crazy - a fly mask with ears that you can ride can might help with that


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Clava said:


> My Tb did indeed develop suddenly headshaking syndrome, she developed pain in the trigeminal nerve, for her salt was the cure, a nose net only acts as a comforter not a "cure".


Thanks. I couldn't think of the word, so I put cure in little quotation things.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I bought a horse with this problem. She was ridden in a rope halter on a loose rein.

I switched her to a Nurtural bitless and not so much of a loose rein and got her teeth floated. The head tossing has stopped.

I realized that she has a very sensitive face. Very, very. So she rides really well bitless and even better when the contact is light but there so she can feel even the slightest movements. Have you ever tried bitless?


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

I haven't tried bitless. Unfortunately as I"m only part-leasing, I'm limited to the tack that the owner chooses to use with him, so I don't have any scope to change it. :/


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## MinervaELS (Mar 4, 2014)

*Note:* This response is in regard to head *tossing*. You've also mentioned head shaking, which is different. This is on the assumption that he is tossing his head up. If he is shaking his head like a dog, as if he's irritated, then disregard.




Shui Long said:


> I'm assuming that it's not teeth or allergies as *it's not happening when his owner rides him.* I also took him out on a trailride with his buddy yesterday and there was *no headshaking out on the trail.*
> 
> I have *not been asking him to come onto the bit very much at all* - my dressage coach always tells me "Forward before Round" and I actually spend most of our sessions together focusing on getting him forward! (he's lazy with me. :-/ )



These are all key, IMO. If he does not have any health/teeth issues, which it sounds like he doesn't but you aren't in a position to deal with anyway, then he may just be disrespecting you. The fact that he is young, recently broken, used to his owner, and has started this with you after a handful of rides BUT does not do it when you aren't asking much (i.e. trail riding) OR with his owner makes me suspicious. 

My mare is/was the exact same way and we knew she did not have any physical issues to cause it. When I first got her she did a LOT of head tossing, always when we were making her work or asking her to do something she didn't want to. She rarely does it with me now that we've gotten acquainted with one another and she has learned both her place and what is expected of her. Every time she tried it I growled "Quit!" at her and made her work harder (bending, tight circles, whatever) until she dropped her head and behaved. 

It didn't take her long to figure out that throwing a tanty= more work, not less. She doesn't do it to me anymore but if my trainer gets on her she'll try it out on her until she uses her scary horse-eating monster voice and legs of steel to remind her how stupid that is. :lol:

Just something to consider. If he was doing this constantly- with his owner, on trails, walking him to the arena tacked up, etc.- I would think medical, but since it's just with you and just when you want him to work in the arena... that cheeky young lad just might be flipping you the bird. :wink:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I really disagree with some of the suppositions of the above post. While I agree that there may not be a health issue due to the difference in behaviour between the usual and another rider, the idea that horses toss their heads out of "disrespect" and to "flip you a bird" is anthropomorphising the horse way too far. Head tossing is usually the effect of some kind of irritation, and if it's not teeth, back etc then it can very well be the type of bit, or the way the bit is handled, or just being uncomfortable with being ridden differently by a different rider. Horses are not "out to get" beginners, or inexperienced riders: Horses who are ridden by beginners and inexperienced riders are subjected to a lot of inevitable discomfort and irritation as the rider learns to keep balance, ride smoothly, handle a bit sensitively etc.

We should thank our horses for their service, rather than accuse them of evil tendencies. The majority of problems people encounter with horses are caused by people themselves, not by the horse.


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## HeroMyOttb (Dec 28, 2009)

My TB also developed Head shaking syndrome after having him for a couple year. It's a very frustrating thing to deal with. I have yet to find a comforter for my horse.


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## HeroMyOttb (Dec 28, 2009)

Nose net does not work for my TB, and i've tried so many different things...ughhh.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

HeroMyOttb said:


> Nose net does not work for my TB, and i've tried so many different things...ughhh.


 Have you tried removing from grass and feeding salt?


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

MinervaELS said:


> *Note:* This response is in regard to head *tossing*. You've also mentioned head shaking, which is different. This is on the assumption that he is tossing his head up. If he is shaking his head like a dog, as if he's irritated, then disregard.
> 
> These are all key, IMO. If he does not have any health/teeth issues, which it sounds like he doesn't but you aren't in a position to deal with anyway, then he may just be disrespecting you. The fact that he is young, recently broken, used to his owner, and has started this with you after a handful of rides BUT does not do it when you aren't asking much (i.e. trail riding) OR with his owner makes me suspicious.
> 
> ...


MinervaELS, I'm afraid that I agree with you! Yep, I really do get the feeling that he's "flipping me the bird", as you say! :lol: He's definitely peed off during our sessions. :-/

Unfortunately I've found it hard to "go through" the head tossing to get him to work harder. This is largely because he become pretty unbalanced as he flings his head around and really starts arcing his neck up... and then I feel like my balance suffers too, and so I'm unwilling to push him on through it in case he starts getting swervy (which he has done in the past). I don't really want to come off him, and I guess that probably affects how hard I'm willing to push him.

Doing circles as "more work" does seem to be a real option. Unfortunately the paddock I ride in is fairly treed on one side so I"m not always able to stop and circle him if he starts head tossing.

I spoke to another friend who is an experienced dressage rider about this situation. Her thoughts were: it could be his saddle, especially if I'm not riding in the same saddle his owner uses; it could be him struggling with the additional workload that has been thrust upon him (going from being ridden 3 x weekly to 6 x weekly); or he could just be very irritated to be in the arena and not getting to jump, or do something that's fun for him. (I don't jump him now and I've no plans to). 

I went to a dressage comp and saw his owner ride him today. I missed the test as she was put on earlier than her start time, but I arrived just after she finished it. She went into the practice area and worked him a bit longer. Annnnnd.... out came the head tossing! :shock::? The woman she agists him with (who has helped me on the ground with him) was watching wtih me. I said to her: "Looks like it's not just me then?" and she said "yeah, he's just started head tossing a bit with her today". Hmmmm.

I found it really interesting looking at his owner riding him. The horse she was riding in that warm up area looked far more like the horse that I've been riding than I've seen him before (the other two times I've seen her ride him has been in the paddock on the property, basically his comfort zone, and he's been very well behaved). Today he was head tossing, and actually fairly hot. She was visibly having to work to try to calm him down. If I'm completely honest if that was the first time I'd seen him I probably wouldn't consider him for a potential mount for myself. :? And I'm not sure what that says...

I had a good talk to the agistment owner after my last ride on him (which was a complete PITA for both me and him). She said that she thought I should give him another couple of rides before deciding that we weren't a good match. She's also offered to spend some time with me and him, to see if she can help guide me a bit more with him. So I think I'll give that a go. And if I don't make any headway with him in the next few sessions then I will seriously consider walking away from him. There's so much about this arrangement with him that works well for me, but at the end of the day I don't have the skills needed to actively train a green horse - nor do I want to. I want a steady mount who will give me the opportunity to refine my own riding (I've got plenty to work on without getting fancy!  :lol: ) I'm on the verge of saying that this boy isn't going to be able to do that for me. And, to be fair(??) to him, he honestly seems like he's gritting his teeth through our entire sessions. That can't be good for him either. :/


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

My filly chucks her head around with me but not with anyone else. She's also a lot more relaxed in demeanour with me than with anyone else. I don't think it's my hands as she doesn't do it ALL the time [only when her bit or saddle isn't fitting properly anymore] so I'm assuming she's comfortable enough with me to play up.

Now... I know, 100%, that the fit of her saddle is not perfect. This is one origin of the head tossing. I'm working on that. I've also just tried her in a different bit, and she's not head tossing in that, but she's leaning on it. A lot. So it's partly bit. It isn't teeth as those were just done a couple of weeks ago, feet are up to date. Chiro is due but I don't think she's out anywhere.

My conclusion, therefore, is that she's partly uncomfortable, and partly, comfortable enough with me to know that I'm not going to eat her if she plays up.


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## rydernation (Mar 12, 2014)

Shui Long said:


> So I've started part-leasing a horse, and we have about 8 rides together under our belt. On the last two rides in the "arena" (paddock!) he has started vigorously tossing his head (really thrashing it around), and seems very cranky when he does it. On our first 6 rides he'd give a head toss every now and again, but no biggie... however this is now pretty extreme. :-(
> 
> Of course my first thought is that I'm too heavy with my hands with him... but I"m not convinced that's the issue. My dressage coach says that I have soft, quiet hands (I ride a different horse with her though). The horse's owner has seen my hands while I've ridden him and said it looked like I had similar contact to her. Another agister observed me and did some troubleshooting the first session that he was badly head tossing. Her conclusion was that it was "behavioural", i.e. not based on my contact, as I was riding him with about as light contact as possible and he still did it from time to time. Her advice was to ride him more forward when he starts head tossing (the idea being "forward fixes")
> 
> ...


Good grief, don't jerk on the reins as punishment. If it were me and I'd had some problems in the paddock, and that is HIS paddock, I'd believe he just didn't feel like riding. Of course, this is NOT your problem. It's his. Did you try saying BAD HORSE, when he does this? Remember you have only 3 seconds to do something to correct a bad horse behavior. I would spank him lightly with a crop.


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## HeroMyOttb (Dec 28, 2009)

Clava said:


> Have you tried removing from grass and feeding salt?


Removing him from grass and feeding salt? 

`


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

Shui Long said:


> *Things that I have not done in response to his head tossing:
> *
> - punished him with a whip
> *- jerked on the reins in punishment* (though I may have grabbed at them for balance a few times when he's been thrashing madly! )
> ...





rydernation said:


> Good grief, don't jerk on the reins as punishment.


Don't fear, rydernation, if you read my quote above you'll see that I specifically listed that as one of the things I have NOT done as punishment! (I realise that it's easy to misread things here on HF  )



rydernation said:


> If it were me and I'd had some problems in the paddock, and that is HIS paddock, I'd believe he just didn't feel like riding. Of course, this is NOT your problem. It's his. Did you try saying BAD HORSE, when he does this? Remember you have only 3 seconds to do something to correct a bad horse behavior. I would spank him lightly with a crop.


I actually haven't really been verbal with him at all while I'm riding him! I don't know why, I use my voice with horses on the ground but don't tend to when in the saddle. I'll try it.  I have been reluctant to hit him with the crop when he's been tossing his head, mostly because if he's doing it as a result of my hurting him somehow I'd feel really horrible about it (i.e. me causing him pain/discomfort and then hitting him when he shows his displeasure would be a pretty lousy thing to do). 

The paddock where we do our training isn't his "home" paddock, but he has free access to it at all times, and his own paddock is close and visible from that paddock. I actually am starting to believe that he really doesn't "feel" like being ridden and that this headtossing is his way of expressing his opinion more than anything else. :?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I also struggle with the concept that a horse will toss its head around because it doesn't want to be ridden - they're more likely to buck or to refuse to move. Head shaking actually causes discomfort to other than to remove flies/bugs its not something I think a horse would do as a form of expression
I've seen horses that didn't head shake do it in response to a rider with less soft hands than they're used too - maybe have someone lunge you on the horse so you can ride with no contact and see what happens?


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

I like the idea of a lunge session for the sake of troubleshooting! Thanks Jaydee!


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

HeroMyOttb said:


> Removing him from grass and feeding salt?
> 
> `


 Yes, it can work. I can let my horse on grass again, but had to remove at first. She head shook for 3 years in a very bad way, now she doesn't


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