# Chestnut vs Sorrel



## SummerShy

Just posting for a little thinking-out-loud discussion. I'm sure it's been beaten to death but I searched through a few pages and didn't find anything exactly the same so here I am.

As I kid I called bright red horses sorrels and the more dull red ones chestnut. I know that sometimes the only difference between these colors is really just where it's being used; like in Britain they're known to use chestnut primarily and in America where we prefer sorrel, or between the registries.

Most people I know consider the two colors one and the same or think the way I did growing up. Both are without black markings, both are genetically the same, recessive colors that require two red parents. 

Sometimes my horse looks bright and sometimes she looks darker, same with her mane. I call her whichever color I feel like at the time but usually I go with sorrel because that's the color I'm using to having. She's not registered anyway lol. Heck maybe I'll just give up the horse lingo altogether and simply call her red


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## haileymiller7

I had always originally thought that a sorrel was a red horse w/ a flaxen mane and tail and that a chestnut was a red horse with a red mane and tail. But I believe that they both are one and the same. Sorrel and chestnut are just two different words for the same color. But I could be wrong.


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## Lonestar22

I tend to call the darker red colors chestnut and the brighter colors sorrel. But then again I call my bright red flaxen horse a flaxen chestnut, just because it's what I've heard said before. Genetically they are the same, but AQHA lists them differently and very confusingly. Lol. 

https://www.aqha.com/~/media/AF002DB012014E2DA2AED09511BA5B3D.ashx

But the gist f what they're saying is lighter red = sorrel, darker red = chestnut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum

It's all semantics. They are genetically the same. I use chestnut because that is what all the books I read as a kid called it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco

No difference between them, different terms are used to describe the same color. Could be English vs Western, location or breed. Sorrel is not a color option in Arabian registries but other registries allow both options so it is up to the owner to pick their preference of color term to describe the horse they are registering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Red Gate Farm

Most people I know consider the two colors one and the same or think the way I did growing up. Both are without black markings, both are genetically the same, recessive colors _*that require two red parents*_. 

Nope, they required two red genes from the parents :wink: The parent's coats themselves don't have to be red.


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## Horseychick87

Yup, both coats are genetically red, it's more of a lingo thing really and people will fight tooth and nail about which is a sorrel and which is a chestnut even though the color is exactly the same genetically, just n varying shades of red.

I personally grew up with Sorrel being used for any red horse with a flaxen mane and tail, and chestnut for those with a mane and tail the same color as the body.


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## horseNpony

Ive personally always thought as sorrel horses to be more red, whereas chestnuts to be more orange. But really, around here they are just known as chestnuts, flaxen chestnuts, liver chestnuts, etc.


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## SummerShy

Red Gate Farm said:


> Most people I know consider the two colors one and the same or think the way I did growing up. Both are without black markings, both are genetically the same, recessive colors _*that require two red parents*_.
> 
> Nope, they required two red genes from the parents :wink: The parent's coats themselves don't have to be red.


Taken from the AQHA color guidebook I think this proves both yourself and me right.



> Like CHESTNUT, a SORREL carries TWO copies of the RED gene only (or rather, non-BLACK)
> meaning it allows for the color RED only. SORREL possesses no other color genes, including BLACK,
> regardless of parentage. It is completely recessive to all other coat colors. When breeding with a
> SORREL, any color other than SORREL will come exclusively from the other parent. A SORREL or
> CHESTNUT bred to a SORREL or CHESTNUT will yield SORREL or CHESTNUT 100 percent of
> the time.


If you breed anything else to a chestnut or sorrel you'll get that other color. If you breed any of the three, chestnut with chestnut, or sorrel with sorrel, or chestnut with sorrel, you will get a red horse every time. This means every red horse does in fact have two red genes, so every red foal will have two red parents. 

Right?

Or what other breeding pairs will yield a red horse?


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## cheyennemymare

I call my 'shiny copper penny' gelding sorrel, and my dull, deep red horse chestnut. 

I call Cheyenne a sorrel paint, because the red patches are bright. Chestnut paints to me are darker, deeper red lol.

Here's what I call sorrel:









And what I call chestnut:









And actually, for the first one, I typed in sorrel horse, and for the second one, chestnut lol. Me and the internet think alike But that's how my mama taught me, and now, that's what I say But, all in all, they are the same.


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## verona1016

I almost always use chestnut, no matter what shade of red the horse is. It seems less common to use sorrel outside of the stock horse world.

The way I see it, we don't know of any genetic difference between sorrel and chestnut, and nutritional differences can cause a horse's shade to change as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco

SummerShy said:


> If you breed anything else to a chestnut or sorrel you'll get that other color. If you breed any of the three, chestnut with chestnut, or sorrel with sorrel, or chestnut with sorrel, you will get a red horse every time. This means every red horse does in fact have two red genes, so every red foal will have two red parents.
> 
> Right?
> 
> Or what other breeding pairs will yield a red horse?


You can get a chestnut/sorrel foal from any color combination as long as neither carries 2 dilute genes or 2 copies of black or 2 of any modifier that covers a base color (like grey and roan). 


Two horses that are black based and each only carry 1 copy of black and 1 copy of red will give you a 25% chance of a foal with 2 red (chestnut/sorrel)

A red horse bred to a black based horse who only carries 1 black will give you a 50% chance of a red foal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farmpony84

I used to think Chestnut was English and Sorrel was western but I remember getting into an argument with an old timer... (You never win with old timers). I think the duller color is the chestnut and the brighter color is a sorrel.


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## gingerscout

My horse is a sorrel.. most people call her Chestnut.. I was told that because she is a registered QH she could be registered sorrel, because it is an option.. some breeds do not have the option, just basically they are the same color.. most people who don't know much about horses know chestnut, but not sorrel when talking colors, I have found


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## SummerShy

SunnyDraco said:


> You can get a chestnut/sorrel foal from any color combination as long as neither carries 2 dilute genes or 2 copies of black or 2 of any modifier that covers a base color (like grey and roan).
> 
> 
> Two horses that are black based and each only carry 1 copy of black and 1 copy of red will give you a 25% chance of a foal with 2 red (chestnut/sorrel)
> 
> A red horse bred to a black based horse who only carries 1 black will give you a 50% chance of a red foal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Black based = black coat, or?


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## anndankev

haileymiller7 said:


> I had always originally thought that a sorrel was a red horse w/ a flaxen mane and tail and that a chestnut was a red horse with a red mane and tail....





Horseychick87 said:


> ....I personally grew up with Sorrel being used for any red horse with a flaxen mane and tail, and chestnut for those with a mane and tail the same color as the body.


^^^ This is what my mother told me. The difference between Sorrel and Chestnut is Sorrels have a flaxen mane and tail. 

Her opinion is that made Sorrels less common, and therefore more desirable by some. Some people, then more and more people referred to Chestnuts as Sorrels. Until it worked it's way into the language with the connotation of being the same.


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## HombresArablegacy

Red Gate Farm said:


> Most people I know consider the two colors one and the same or think the way I did growing up. Both are without black markings, both are genetically the same, recessive colors _*that require two red parents*_.
> 
> Nope, they required two red genes from the parents :wink: The parent's coats themselves don't have to be red.


^^^^^ So glad you added that last sentence about the parents, as I bred my bay Arabian mare to a bay Arabian stallion and got.....a chestnut filly with a flaxen mane and tail. Leased her back to the stallion owner for a free rebreed. The owner got another chestnut filly, and third foal was a bay filly. All full siblings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco

SummerShy said:


> Black based = black coat, or?


Black based means any horse with at least black gene. Black is dominant over red, only a single black gene is needed to cover the red. But there are modifiers that control black pigment, restricting it. Agouti restricts black when black is present and turns a black based horse into a bay/brown. Chestnut/sorrel horses can carry agouti but there is no physical evidence of it since red is not effected by agouti. Without the presence of agouti in a black based horse, the black covers the entire horse uniformly making them black. 

I personally know a horse who was born midnight black but turned grey (covering her black coat) and was bred to a bay stallion, producing a chestnut colt who also got the grey gene and turned grey covering the red body.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SummerShy

SunnyDraco said:


> Black based means any horse with at least black gene. Black is dominant over red, only a single black gene is needed to cover the red. But there are modifiers that control black pigment, restricting it. Agouti restricts black when black is present and turns a black based horse into a bay/brown. Chestnut/sorrel horses can carry agouti but there is no physical evidence of it since red is not effected by agouti. Without the presence of agouti in a black based horse, the black covers the entire horse uniformly making them black.
> 
> I personally know a horse who was born midnight black but turned grey (covering her black coat) and was bred to a bay stallion, producing a chestnut colt who also got the grey gene and turned grey covering the red body.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well good lord.


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## NdAppy

SummerShy said:


> Well good lord.


why good lord?


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## SunnyDraco

SummerShy said:


> Well good lord.


 Not hard to understand really. Black based horses are basically every color that isn't red based (chestnut/sorrel based)

Black gene + agouti = bay/brown horse

Black gene + no agouti = black horse

Grullos, buckskins, bay, brown, black, bay dun, blue roan, bay roan and brownskin are all black based colors. These horses can have 1 or 2 black genes. If a horse has 2 black genes (homozygous black), they cannot produce a chestnut/sorrel based foal which includes palominos, red roan and red dun


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## haviris

SummerShy said:


> If you breed anything else to a chestnut or sorrel you'll get that other color. If you breed any of the three, chestnut with chestnut, or sorrel with sorrel, or chestnut with sorrel, you will get a red horse every time. This means every red horse does in fact have two red genes, so every red foal will have two red parents.
> 
> Right?


Wrong, they just need a red gene, they don't have to be red. You are right that red x red always gives you red, but that doesn't mean that's the only way you get it. My reds came from,

Buckskin x ?
Palomino x ?
Palomino x palomino
Black x red
Black x red dun

That's the thing about recessive genes, they hide. That is why they are so common!


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## gingerscout

I don't know jack about breeding and genetics.. I won't even try to admit that I do..LOL, I know my sorrel has a palomino sire, and both of her offspring have been palominos.. don't know what that means.. if anything..lol


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## JCnGrace

Even though they are genetically the same, they are two different colors to me. Probably because I'm in the qh and paint world. Was also always told whether the mane & tail were flaxen or red did not enter into it only the shade of the body color. Here are two of my qhs the one on the left I considered sorrel and the one on the right chestnut.


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## nikelodeon79

I used to use the terms opposite of what's being discussed on this thread: more red is sorrel and more orange is chestnut. Same colored or darker mane is sorrel and lighter mane is chestnut.

Now I just call all of them chestnut because I think it sounds better than chestnut. 

The different shades of chestnut are intriguing to me. Of all the chestnuts at my barn, only two are the lighter, shiny copper gold color.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kewpalace

Therere is no "sorrel" in the Arabian Horse Association they only use chestnut:



> Chestnut:
> Chestnuts are a copper color, varying in shades from a light golden-red to a dark brown, known as "liver chestnut."
> Occasionally, a chestnut will have a "flaxen," or blonde, mane and tail. Sometimes, the mane and tail will be a mixture of blonde and chestnut hairs or brown and chestnut hairs. Quite often, the mane and tail will be the same color as the body coat.
> Chestnut foals often have light blonde baby hair on their legs. This hair should not be confused with true white markings. If you aren't sure, wet down the hair and look for pink skin.
> The rule of genetics followed by the Association is that the mating of two chestnuts always results in a chestnut foal.


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## Clava

In the UK we don't use the term sorrel...so they are all chestnut  (light, dark, liver, flaxen etc).


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## Clava

duplicate .


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## Bridgertrot

gingerscout said:


> I don't know jack about breeding and genetics.. I won't even try to admit that I do..LOL, I know my sorrel has a palomino sire, and both of her offspring have been palominos.. don't know what that means.. if anything..lol


It means that both times she's been bred, the sire carried cream, because she herself as a red cannot produce a palomino since she doesn't carry cream. She didn't get a cream gene from her palomino sire, otherwise she'd be palomino and not red. Cream is dominant so if they have it, it will show. It doesn't hide or "skip" generations. Must have a cream parent to be cream lol.

That's what that means. :lol:


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## SunnyDraco

Bridgertrot said:


> It means that both times she's been bred, the sire carried cream, because she herself as a red cannot produce a palomino since she doesn't carry cream. She didn't get a cream gene from her palomino sire, otherwise she'd be palomino and not red. Cream is dominant so if they have it, it will show. It doesn't hide or "skip" generations. Must have a cream parent to be cream lol.
> 
> That's what that means. :lol:


A single cream can "hide" on black coats. Single or double cream vanishes under grey coats. So it can "hide" in special cases but cannot skip generations


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## Bridgertrot

Haha. My bad, forgot to mention the black exception lol


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## hyperkalemic4

I have always understood that the red red ones that may have a red mane or a flaxen mane are sorrel, when they have multi colored mane and tail, with black and brown in them they are chestnuts. Some chestnuts have darker legs, but not black points.


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## Snyper

I'm just gonna jump in here and ask rather than start a whole new thread asking this, but..
if there's a difference between Chestnut and Sorrel, what would this gelding be?

Sorry for the unclear pictures, I had better ones but they're all too big and I don't have time to crop them


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## NdAppy

There is no known genetic difference between chestnut and sorrel.


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## SunnyDraco

Snyper said:


> I'm just gonna jump in here and ask rather than start a whole new thread asking this, but..
> if there's a difference between Chestnut and Sorrel, what would this gelding be?
> 
> Sorry for the unclear pictures, I had better ones but they're all too big and I don't have time to crop them
> 
> View attachment 564521
> 
> 
> View attachment 564529
> 
> 
> View attachment 564537
> 
> 
> View attachment 564545


No actual difference between chestnut and sorrel. It is personal preference of using two names for the same color. Everyone has their own opinion on how they define color shades for use of the different terms. My own personal opinion would be to call your gelding a chestnut due to his deeper red color as I prefer to call the lighter oranger toned horses sorrel. Others may call him sorrel but there isn't an actual right or wrong way to use chestnut and sorrel while describing a red horse.


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## gingerscout

the way people explained it to me is if it's a QH that if it has a lighter mane/ flaxen mane its a sorrel, if it has a same color mane or darker it's a chestnut.. but in reality its like calling something a potAto and a poTato..lol


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## Snyper

SunnyDraco said:


> No actual difference between chestnut and sorrel. It is personal preference of using two names for the same color. Everyone has their own opinion on how they define color shades for use of the different terms. My own personal opinion would be to call your gelding a chestnut due to his deeper red color as I prefer to call the lighter oranger toned horses sorrel. Others may call him sorrel but there isn't an actual right or wrong way to use chestnut and sorrel while describing a red horse.


Okay, thanks! 
Yeah I'd call him a chestnut too, also just because many people don't know what a sorrel is, so mentioning it could start an argument with "He's a chestnut, not a sorrel." or "I don't what a sorrel is, but you're probably wrong cause he's a chestnut." Like yeah thanks for doubting my knowledge on my own horse 
anyway thanks


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