# Not to create more controversy, but



## farmpony84

I can't see the video so I don't know if it's your link or my home computer (which is pretty poopie)...


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## JustDressageIt

While contact is "light" in this video (compared to your other video) - you are riding your horse in a curb bit. Curb bits are meant to be used on horses that are finished and do not need contact on the reins. Curb bits should not be used while direct reining. Your horse is bobbing its head as it has no clue where you want it to be; the curb is saying "wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong" no matter what - there is no relief. I suggest switching to a snaffle - that is what they're meant for - to allow a horse to carry contact comfortably. 
You need to learn how to control your horse with leg and seat aids. The aid for "back up" does not come from the bit/reins, it comes from the seat and leg.


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## bubba13

JustDressageIt:

Did you notice the clip at the end where I back up up with the reins dropped onto her withers and using only my legs? That was sort of my point. She was being resentful of both leg and and rein earlier in the video and fighting the back-up, so I added the last bit to clarify that she actually does understand the command when she's not being a butt.

As a Western rider, I respectfully disagree about the proper use of curb vs. snaffle bits. An Argentine snaffle (a misnomer, I know) can be effectively ridden with either one or two hands. It has a broken mouthpiece and independent side action for lateral control.










It is a well-designed, well-balanced, and mild curb bit. Coupled with a flat double-up curb chain, it allows for support of the horse's head, good lateral control, and either neck or direct reining. It's a very versatile bit generally used to transition young horses from the snaffle into the grazing curb.

A snaffle does not provide the security of light curb support that my mare has come to expect, nor is it necessarily (or even ever) a "gentler" bit. Its direct-line action is not conducive to neck reining, and the fact that a snaffle is either "on" or "off" makes it less complex and and with less finesse than a curb, which allows varying degrees of pressure and action to be applied. A curb gives a warning with shank rotation and rein-jingling before a cue is applied; a snaffle does not.

My experience over the years with horses who have become accustomed to curb bits--no matter how soft the hands of their riders--is that they will not tolerate snaffles. They hate the direct pull action and much prefer the subtle lift of a curb. They'll gape their mouths and brace their necks but immediately relax when the curb is returned. I personally have a mare who rides wonderfully in a curb, in a halter, or with a bridleless neck rope, but who will flat out bolt and brace and fight with a snaffle, every time.


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## QHDragon

I just watched all the videos that you have posted on this forums. Have you ever had your saddle fit checked by a saddle fitter? Or had your mare checked by a chiropractor?

She looks very hollow through the back, so her head set is going to be fake until you get her to round all the way through. Her hollow-ness could be caused by back pain. Back pain could also explain why she is sweet on the ground but hard to handle under saddle.


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## QHDragon

Also, since there seems to be no difference between when you ride with a tie down and when you don't, I would get rid of the tie-down. Its only giving her something to brace against and creating more muscle on the underside of her body and neck then on the top side.


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## farmpony84

Ok... I had to go to my ipad to see the video because this laptop is a stupid insert curse word here piece of loose waterfilled poop. Anyway, this is what I see....

This horse reminds me of my Blue, especially the head toss. She (I think it's a mare) is not being the most attentive horse, in fact, she kind of looks like she might be a little bit on the bitchy side (no offense intended). She doesn't want to collect up because that's work so she's trying to ride around in a strung out straight line, she doesn't want to bend and a couple times she tries to go her way. I think it would help to deepen your seat, you tend to roll up on your pelvis when she gets racey (kind of like a hunt rider). If you can keep yourself from doing that and sink down deeper it will be harder for her to string herself out. 

Her head thing is something that Blue is horrible about. I havne't posted videos of him in a very long time because I am certain people would blame the hands of the rider and it's not. I've had his teeth floated (which if you haven't I would suggest that as a start). I even had a bit-seat put in which some of the NH people have fits about. I felt like it helped. He's avoiding the bit and also, it's his way of arguing his point, which is, He doesn't want to do it. He wants to pick his pace and do things his way. Her head thing to me is trying to figure out a way to avoid the bit. She's not being snatched in the mouth, she's not got a lot of preasure in her mouth, she is trying to find a way to carry her head so that she doesn't have to listen to you. (that's my opinion). I'm not sure how to fix it because I'm dealing with the same problem and I've tried many different bits. Draw reins help but you can't ride with them all the time and since you are doing barrels (I think I read somewhere) I doubt draw reins are something you want... 

I do think you would benifit from a deeper seat though. Another thing you do is let your legs slide forward and that knocks your balance off....

That's my two cents....


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## bubba13

QHDragon:

She's actually not sweet on the ground, in the pasture, for the farrier, for the vet, in a house, with a mouse, in a box, or with a fox, she does not like green eggs and ham....you get the picture.

I do, however, think there's a potential she is back sore. Her saddle was actually custom-made to fit her years back. However, I noticed over the past season that as she gained more muscle in the shoulder she started to get dry spots behind and below her withers. I was in the process of seeing if I could correct the problem with therapeutic saddle pads when she got hurt again.

At the moment, since she is still atrophied and out of shape, it's not an issue. And certainly from all outward appearances the saddle seems to fit. But I'm suspicious all the same and intend to have the vet give her back the once-over when it's time for spring vaccinations here in the near future.


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## farmpony84

adding to what QHdragon said... I did just get Blue an adjustment on his jaw to see if that makes a difference, if it does I'll do the chiro route. I also checked my saddle fit as he is much like this mare.... It's good advice...


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## JustDressageIt

Your mare's head is telling me a different story regarding the bit. Curbs are not designed to be ridden in two-handed; if you're going to keep contact on a bit, I suggest switching to a snaffle. 
Have you had her teeth floated by a dentist recently? 
I respectfully disagree on your opinion on curbs.. there are many, many threads regarding that on this forum, though.


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## Northern

There's a pretty good "feel" between you & mare. 

Imo, a tie-down, however loose, is to be rendered obsolete by horse accepting the bit. Imo again, a horse needs to accept a snaffle (non-pinching of lips, non-poking of palate by joint) as the first bit. Then a tie-down won't be needed. After a horse accepts the snaffle, whatever the horse prefers is fine, imo.


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## bubba13

QHDragon again:

The tie-down is intended only to get her when she flings her head exceptionally high. I really probably should adjust it tighter, though its presence does remind her that she can just jump over the top of the bit and run off. It's more for barrel racing than anything else, once again to keep her from getting completely over the bit.

farmpony84:

Very astute and insightful observations; thank you. I would have said "*****" myself if I'd known the word filter was so lax here! Though in her case, "brat" might really be more appropriate.

She is attentive in the sense that she's listening to me at all times, but inattentive in the sense that she's just as soon find something to spook over or an excuse to run off, but none has yet presented itself.

I think part of the problem with my seat is that I've got baggage from a bad former coach/trainer (a person I blame for a lot of Bones' issues--she didn't fling her head like that until the woman had me put, against my screaming better judgment, a chain gag combination curb bit and a training fork martingale on her at the same time) who made my adjust my stirrups so short my knees where practically at my hips. Because of all that, I still prefer to ride with an exceedingly short stirrup, which makes sitting down deeply difficult. I'd rather stand up in my stirrups, which of course only serves to push the horse farther forward. And then the stiffness of my lower back and poor posture only exacerbate the problem. Couple that with a rough-riding, uncomfortable horse and...yeah. Problem city.

Her teeth are floated religiously every 10 months. She's always been bracey with the bit, even when I was first breaking her to ride. She's got a very resistant, defiant temperament. And you're right, she's fighting herself, not me or my hands.

I don't even necessarily want to bring her head down. It's at a comfortable level for her, and it certainly works for barrel racing (if you missed the video, she actually is a highly competitive and talented 1D horse). Softening her up would be great, though, as would getting her to ride while carrying herself more correctly. That can only help to keep her from re-injuring herself, something I am paranoid about....


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## bubba13

JustDressageIt:

We'll probably never get a dressage queen and a barrel princess to agree on bit construction and use; that's fine. Let's suffice it to say that I have thoroughly researched bit mechanics and action and am quite confident in the suitability of what I have put in my horse's mouth. Broken-mouthed, loose-jawed curbs are perfectly suitable for two-handed riding in educated hands.

Yes, as aforementioned, her teeth are floated by a veterinary equine dentist every 10 months.

Northern:

Are you suggesting that snaffles do not pinch lips and poke palates, while curbs do? If so, I'm afraid I'd have to disagree on both counts. A poorly constructed bit of any type can pinch, but a well-made curb or snaffle will not. Either can place considerable pressure on the bars and tongue when ridden with insensitive hands. The poking palates part is more controversial, as current research actually suggests that the "nutcracker effect" of a broken mouthpiece is simply a myth. This is not to say that it cannot cruelly pinch the tongue, but the mouthpiece will not (according to radiographic evidence) actually fold to the point of reaching the roof of the mouth.

She was broke and trained in a snaffle. She will still ride in one, but there's a lot more fighting and head-tossing than even you see here, and a lot more bracing of the neck.

The tie-down is not intended to create any sort of headset or frame (false or otherwise). It's simply there as a reminder to not get over the bit, which she has a tendency to want to do when hyperexcited. Practicing barrel slow work would be...interesting without the tie-down. As you can see, though, it is very loose.


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## Northern

bubba13 said:


> Northern:
> 
> Are you suggesting that snaffles do not pinch lips and poke palates, while curbs do? NO! I meant make sure the snaffle doesn't do either! A poorly constructed bit of any type can pinch, but a well-made curb or snaffle will not. Agreed! The poking palates part is more controversial, as *current research actually suggests that the "nutcracker effect" of a broken mouthpiece is simply a myth.*  I can't tell you what good news this is to me! It never made sense to me & I researched this myself/wrote to bitting "experts" asking the question, & no solid evidence/answers appeared, except the same claims that *so many horses had bruised palates, (that's common knowledge, idjit!)* So, I just always say, on bitting threads, to make sure palate's not poked, just in case.:shock: The tie-down is not intended to create any sort of headset or frame (false or otherwise). .


I know it's not intended to create a headset, but to prevent the other stuff, but imo, the other stuff needs to be corrected by her accepting the bit.


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## tinyliny

Bubba,

I think this sounds kind of harsh, but the problems of your horse throwing her head up and hollowing out and going against your hand, braced and stiff ARE due to the rider. Such problems always are rider problems. Either created by a former rider building in a bad habititual way of going, and the horse coninues this way into the new rider. OR, just the way the existing rider rides. 
If you say, well, she hollows out and is high strung and just goes this way, then the responsibility is still in your lap because you are not riding in such a way as to CHANGE this incorrect way of going.

If, you don't care, and you like her way of going, then it isn't a problem and do not say it is nor ask for advice.

What I saw in both videos (and I was a bit chagrined to see that you had not been forthright about identifying yourself as the rider at the outset. NO NO)
is a horse that is very tense, phyiscally and mentally and trying to run out from under the rider. The rider is leaning forward (signalling "go forward" ) with the body, but saying "slow down" with the reins. The hrose is compressed onto the forhand and has it's neck up and braced against the pull. This DOES build the under neck muscles and develops the "ewe neck" you hear about. It makes the muscles on the upper side of the neck very tight and it becomes harder and harder for the horse to stretch downward and forward, even if they are correctly asked to do so.

It is obvious that she is high strung and likes to GO! and that isn't the issue. It's nt that she needs to slow down, but that she needs to stretch out. In fact, I would let her go, at least at first, . Sit back and let her go a little.
After she had done this for abit she might be more able to relax.

I heard you say that you had lower back pain (man, do I feel for you. I have same trouble) and it's hard to move with the canter if you sit down. But if you can, if you can and can do it with letting her have some head, she may go through the tight place into a softer place. There is will be easier for you to sit her canter.

a lot could be done to change her way of going that will keep her smoother and more sound in the long run. I kind of get the feeling that you are happy with her the way she is and have no real interest in changing anything. So, maybe I should just shut my gob now.


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## mswp27

Bubba13:
You asked for critique so take it kindly or don't ask for it at all. Therefore, when you get critique you can't start an argument over every little thing. I don't agree with everything on this thread said by other people, but they are doing EXACTLY what you asked them to do - critique the video that you posted. I read your previous post also. You said you wouldn't "use any tricks up your sleeve" this time, but you are doing exactly that if I am understanding your term correctly. Now, of course, I am not trying to critique you, but your first post was defensive, showing you are ready for an argument. Just be open to others' opinions, especially when you ask for them.


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## Northern

Gotta say, I don't see bubba being rude/defensive/whatever, on this thread. ???


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## NdAppy

I don't see arguing from bubba... I honestly see that they are trying to explain their point of view. Seems to me that everyone is up in arms over this poster.


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## mswp27

Ok, maybe she wasn't arguing as much on this thread, but I see her first post as defensive. Maybe it's just me, but I know I'm not the only one that's sick of her arguing for no reason.


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## bubba13

Northern again:

I'm not sure how you think I should go about getting her to accept the bit. She does give and listen, albeit certainly not as much as is ideal, and I can ride her in either a snaffle or a halter, though I get the best response with a curb. Actually, what she rides the absolute best in is a Myler ported Pelham:










She LOVES this bit. Which isn't to say that she doesn't still try to pull and fight on occasion, but she's very respectful and gives the most to it. So I save it for barrel racing so as not to desensitize her to its action. I use the Argentine snaffle on trails to try to keep her in a fairly mild bit so that she doesn't get even harder-mouthed and more bracey. I do have a long-shanked Myler with a different mouthpiece I could ride her in and that she also gives to, but I prefer to stick with the shorter shanks whenever possible.

tinyliny:

Some issues are due to the rider, some are due to the horse's natural way of going and temperament, some are due to past training, some are due to ground conditions, some are due to equipment, some are due to "old habits die hard." She is braced and stiff even when being trotted by hand for veterinary evaluation, with ears pinned, neck stiff, and head high. I'll take the blame where necessary, but no more than my fair share.

I ride her as softly and quietly as I can. Is there room for improvement? Absofrigginlutely.  I know I need to soften, and that's something I'm striving to accomplish. But it's not exactly an easy thing to do.

She's not trying to "run out" from under me. She's more than capable of bolting on a hell-bent course if she so chooses. She wants to go faster, and is frustrated that I won't let her, but despite her discontent she still chooses to listen and respond.

Even when I lean forward I do not push with my legs to encourage speed. My horse is accustomed enough to me (I'm the only person who has ridden her for years and years, and I was the one to break and train her) that she certainly knows what my body movements mean, and knows when I am and am not asking for speed.

When she braces, it is against herself and our combined tension in general, not against my hands at any point, in either video.

I do not *like* her way of going; I tolerate her way of going. While less than ideal for sure, it is apparently quite effective for her barrel racing. That is the only reason that I am not horribly concerned about it--she still works and wins. But I do wish to correct her for the simple reason that I want to minimize her chances of getting hurt again.


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## Northern

I didn't read the first thread, so I have the benefit of fresh eyes here.


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## NdAppy

Like I said, I don't see her arguing. I see her giving her point of view. 

Are there things she can improve? Of course. There are for EVERY horse person.

Is she saying that she is not going to take any advice? Nope. I see her stating where she _knows_ she needs improvement. 

Do i see the point of this thread? Yes I do. I see that she wanted to show how the mare currently rides and how she handles this mare. 

Do I think that it is _all_ rider error? Heck no. I have a mare that acts dang near as nutty. It is that horse's personality and how she acts under saddle.


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## bubba13

Northern:

Maybe you shoud read the first thread, so you can hate me along with everyone else and tell me how I'm abusing my poor horse by tearing her face off. 

(I still maintain that it's the exact same rein pressure in both videos.)


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## equiniphile

While this video is considerably better, I stand by the fact that green horses = snaffle riding. An o-ring or eggbutt will benefit her greatly.


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## QHDragon

bubba13 said:


> QHDragon:
> 
> She's actually not sweet on the ground, in the pasture, for the farrier, for the vet, in a house, with a mouse, in a box, or with a fox, she does not like green eggs and ham....you get the picture.
> 
> I do, however, think there's a potential she is back sore. Her saddle was actually custom-made to fit her years back. However, I noticed over the past season that as she gained more muscle in the shoulder she started to get dry spots behind and below her withers. I was in the process of seeing if I could correct the problem with therapeutic saddle pads when she got hurt again.
> 
> At the moment, since she is still atrophied and out of shape, it's not an issue. And certainly from all outward appearances the saddle seems to fit. But I'm suspicious all the same and intend to have the vet give her back the once-over when it's time for spring vaccinations here in the near future.



In one of your posts I thought you said that she was nice and easy to handle on the ground, sorry. 

You might want to look into one of those pads that you can custom shim to help with her saddle fit, especially if you are bringing her back from an injury and she could change shape even more.


You can check if your mare is sore just by applying steady pressure on either side of her spine, and where you are seeing excessive wet or dry spots, I do that with Blue from time to time since I have been having such issues with saddle fit. Its pretty easy to tell where he is sore!


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## tinyliny

Bubba,

No one "hates you or thinks you are tearing your horse's face off". What I said was that the way your horse rides is your responsibility. If you want to change it , and I personally, when asked to critique "this rider" , felt that it needed to be changed for the horse's happiness and soundness, then you must change the way YOU ride. The horse may be hot, may do this may do that but if you want to change it, you have to change you you ride.
Want the same? Do nothing.

No hate involved. As long as your rein contact is like it is and seat like it is, then she will go like she does.


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## mswp27

I just think that Bubba13 could be taking the advice and critique given to her much more openly because she did ask for it. But by saying that every one hates her and thinks she's ripping her horse's face off is quite a stretch and already putting off the advice and critique given to her.


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## bubba13

equiniphile:

I agree, but she's not a green horse. She's a seasoned nine-year-old competitor. She was broke and trained in the snaffle as a four-year-old, and still uses one on occasion (generally a Myler mullen D-ring). But she rides better in a curb.

QHDragon:

I was being sarcastic to the people insisting she was horribly unhappy about the way I was riding her because her ears are pinned. That mare's ears are constantly flattened, even when no people are around.

I have gotten a similar-style pad for another horse. I'm afraid that if the issue crops up again, though, it's going to be a saddle issue. Although I think my cheaper economy trophy saddle might fit her better than the expensive custom one--funny how that works, no?

I did notice her flinching in the back today, which is what first clued me in to the possibility of a lurking problem, but I had just been brushing her with a metal curry to help shed, so not exactly the best circumstances to tell. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on things.

tinyliny:

I maintain and will continue to reiterate that there is nothing wrong with the amount of pressure I put on the reins. I may need work on hand position, or whatever, but I have forgiving hands and pride myself on finesse with the reins. Maybe the videos don't show that; maybe people legitimately think they're seeing me rip at my horse's face. But I'm not, and I know I'm not.

Seat could use work, yes. Already said I'm working on that and overall riding stiffness.


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## Northern

OMG, will you folks lighten up? bubba was only exaggerating to make a point, using a sense of humor, to boot!


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## mswp27

And Bubba13, ignoring my comments is denying what is actually going on...seeing as you have addressed everyone else's comments.


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## bubba13

mswp27:

Did you read some of the responses in the previous thread, saying things to the effect that I should be ripped off of my horse for the abuse I'm inflicting?


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## mswp27

People only had to say things to such a drastic measure to get the point across because you wouldn't listen to anybody.


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## NdAppy

mswp - I honestly think you need to learn to take things with a grain of salt and learn to read sarcasm.


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## myhorsesonador

bubba13 said:


> Northern:
> 
> Maybe you shoud read the first thread, so you can hate me along with everyone else and tell me how I'm abusing my poor horse by tearing her face off.
> 
> (I still maintain that it's the exact same rein pressure in both videos.)


No one hates you. They just can't understand why you would post and ask for advice if your just going to contradict every thing we say. No one wants to help some one that doesn't want to listen.

Here is my true honest critigue. Take it or leave it. If you say your horse doesnt need it, well just so you know every horse needs it. It doesnt hurt to go back to the basics.

You need to start on the ground in a snaffle bit. Stand by the horses sholder and gently ask for your horses head.If she fights just act like a post. Never pull or jurk on her. At the exat moment she gives you her face release the pressure. In your video she might give but you are not giving back. Horses learn through the release. Do this on both sides. Do it till nither of you can stand it any longer. by that I mean she does it so well that she gets to be automatic with the slightest of pressure.

Once you have worked on that start to work on these exsesizes. You get hip over by asking for her head while walking forward. Her feet should cross. For hips you will go the same with a little bit of pressure to the back.




 
If practiced every day for about a month you and your horse should have these down pat. Thats when you should move into working on these thing is the saddle. Do not move past the walk untill she is giving to you. 

For vertical flextion. Ask with your hand elavated and lightly pull on the reins in an slight upwards motion. Once again don't yank or jerk just be a post. As soon as she gives release the pressure. Eventualy she will hold it there herself. Vertical flextion should be the last thing you work with.

good luck. Please give these a try I promis that you will se a new horse.


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## mswp27

Alright, well I'm not here to argue with anyone. I'll let you guys do your . . . thing . . .


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## bubba13

myhorsesonador:

Been there, done that. Did you see her lateral movement in the video (end of first clip)? She has excellent flexion from side to side both on the ground and under saddle, in a halter or with a bit. Less so for vertical flexion, though she's perfect on the ground, it does not always translate to under saddle at speeds faster than a walk. But she also knows how to drop her head while still maintaining a hollowed back, which requires me to send the spur into her belly to get her to pick her back up and round, which means she gets mad at the instrusion, jolts forward, and raises her head again.

I'm not contradicting everything. I'm separating the wheat from the chaff based on what I know of my horse and my riding.


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## Allison Finch

Bubba,
*I have to tell you that I detest "tom thumb" type bits. They have all the harshness of a curb (No contact should be used consistently) and the nutcracker effect of a snaffle that has been magnified in hardness by the curb effect. That* bit should not be ridden in constant contact.....ever. If you need to slow her down, a series of half halts should be used instead of contact.

As for her head set....she has been taught to throw her head up by the tie down, IMHO. She is using it as a balance point and it is obvious to me that she is constantly searching to balance with it by throwing her head up.

As for the pelham bit....it is meant to be used with two reins...not one, like a curb bit. The strongest contact must be with the upper "snaffle" rein with the lower "curb" rein used for corrections. Again, no constant contact using the lower rein solely.

Sorry if you think I am being too critical, but I saw no correct "lateral" movements.


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## tinyliny

tinyliny:

I maintain and will continue to reiterate that there is nothing wrong with the amount of pressure I put on the reins. I may need work on hand position, or whatever, but I have forgiving hands and pride myself on finesse with the reins. Maybe the videos don't show that; maybe people legitimately think they're seeing me rip at my horse's face. But I'm not, and I know I'm not. quote of Bubba.

My response:

Sometimes amount of pressure is not the issue. It is consistency, and stability and release of pressure when the horse has made a correct change of behavior.

If she were mine, once I knew that back soreness was not the issue, I would put on a snaffle , just 'cause I want to be able to follow the mouth better and the application of the pressure can be made is lesser amounts (curbs make contact sooner and it's very hard to have a contact with the mouth, keep that contact with the mouth, but not get too much pressure, expecially if the horse keeps thrashing her head around). Curbs are very delicate instruments, and while she is thrashing her head around and while I would be working on changing that, I would not want a delicate insturment.

I would ride her forward, at a walk and when I picked up contact, if she threw her head in the air, nose high, I would actualy lift my hands, (don't try to pull her down, but rather lift your hands along with her lifting her head. Counterintuitive, but try it.) Apply a fair amount of contact, one rein more than the other, and wait until she changed. I want her to put her nose down, so I won't release until she does. She'll lift her head higher, swing it around, try this and that until she accidentally puts the nose down and that's when I'll give a big release and ask her to walk on.
Repeat, repeat repeat. So, she stops putting her nose in the air. I migth actually apply a LOT more pressure than you currently are, but I am specifically looking for that drop of the nose and then I give a total release. 
i would do all this at the walk.

The next step would be getting her to take the reins out and forward and stretch down. I can explain that too, but my point in writing this was that having feather light contact all the time is not always what is needed.

I should also add, since I am usually not this critical on the forum, that I am not in the saddle, and I don't feel how she feels under me. I bet she is not the easiest horse to ride, and watching her do barrels I can appreciate your courage at barrells. You guys were really booking along! I could NOT do that, no way!


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## myhorsesonador

bubba13 said:


> myhorsesonador:
> 
> Been there, done that. Did you see her lateral movement in the video (end of first clip)? She has excellent flexion from side to side both on the ground and under saddle, in a halter or with a bit. Less so for vertical flexion, though she's perfect on the ground, it does not always translate to under saddle at speeds faster than a walk. But she also knows how to drop her head while still maintaining a hollowed back, which requires me to send the spur into her belly to get her to pick her back up and round, which means she gets mad at the instrusion, jolts forward, and raises her head again.
> 
> I'm not contradicting everything. I'm separating the wheat from the chaff based on what I know of my horse and my riding.


Well you need to do it again. It never hurts to start over. I've watched your video and to me your horse looks like she has never had that done with her in her life.


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## Northern

The horse's head is so very low/overbent (the one Lyons is riding). Referring to the first video, not the one with the Paint.


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## myhorsesonador

Northern said:


> The horse's head is so very low/overbent (the one Lyons is riding).


I didnt post that video to show how he was riding I posted it to show the monuvers he was teaching. That horses heas is in the corect position any ways. When you pick up the reins the horse should give it's head.


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## bubba13

Allison Finch:

There is a considerable difference between a Tom Thumb and an Argentine snaffle in balance, construction, and action.

Allow me to quote:



> The Tom Thumb is a bit that gets a bad rap for being very harsh--stories have been passed around of people breaking their horse's jaw with it. Now, that seems a little exaggerated to me (I can't imagine how much pressure they'd have to be exerting on the reins to cause that much damage), and while I don't consider the TT to be particularly cruel, I just plain don't like it for a variety of reasons. Many people do use and love this bit, swearing by it and using it for training colts. To each his own, but my personal opinion is that there are far better bits on the market.
> 
> 
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> 
> This, right here, is a true Tom Thumb--and the worst one in existence. The straight shanks don't give the horse any warning at all--the second you apply pressure, they pop right around, snatching the curb and activating the nutcracker (pinching) effect with the mouthpiece. It also makes direct reining difficult--the straight shanks, combined with the way the mouthpiece attaches to the shanks (no freedom whatsoever), mean that when you pull on one side, the entire bit twists rather painfully in the horses mouth. The curved shank versions aren't quite as bad, but it's still quite difficult for the rider to convey the intended cue to the horse, no matter how light or heavy his or her hands are. This bit just doesn't have a whole lot of finesse in the horse's mouth--it's all or nothing. And any efforts at direct reining will likely result in confusion for the horse. While many horses do ride well in a TT, this often has far more to do with the kindness of the horse's temperament than the quality of the bit.Now compare the above bit to this, your standard Argentine Snaffle.
> 
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> 
> 
> At first glance, they look very similar. But the Argentine is much better balanced. Look at the curved shanks--these make it less harsh, and a slight touch of the rein will give a horse warning that a cue is coming, giving the horse time to react. Also, the joint between the two parts of the mouthpiece is finished better, so it will be less likely to pinch. Most importantly, the attachment from mouthpiece/shank is not fixed in the vertical direction. This gives both parts some freedom and independent movement. Slight jingles in the reins are often all that is needed to give a cue and thus get the desired response from the horse without the yanking that is often required with a Tom Thumb. Ask any horse--most will respond so much better to bits of this type.


She was taught to throw her head through the unfortunate meeting of the aforementioned combination chain gag and running martingale--a bad choice to listen to "expert" advice that permanently affected my poor horse. 

She's not touching the tie-down, and she flips her head regardless of whether it's present. Actually, when I tighten it down she keeps her head lower, because she doesn't like the way it feels on her nose and hates to bump it. But I don't like the harshness of keeping it so tight when it's not needed.

While the Pelham originated as an English pseudo-double bridle bit, the version I use is a Western one designed specifically for barrel racing. While it certainly could be used with two reins, it is meant to be used with only one, and is highly effective as such. With its ported mouthpiece, I'm not sure I'd want to use it as a snaffle.

tinyliny:

I appreciate your efforts in coming back to this thread. I agree with much of what you are saying in regards to pressure and release.

I would respectfully disagree that curbs have faster action; their main advantage is the delay in action and the warning they provide to the horse.

She will give to me at the walk, not perfectly, but quite nicely nonetheless, and I would say satisfactorily. At the trot and canter, the result is what you see in the video. I was asking her to keep her head low the whole time, and you can see her flipping, fighting, occasionally dropping nicely, then raising back up to repeat. I could lower my hands enough to get her to fling her head down into a beautiful false frame, with her head nicely set and her back hollow and ineffective, but I certainly don't want to do that!

It's true that I am a much better barrel racer than I am a rider in general. I can also do a pretty decent job of starting and breaking a horse. But any sort of dressagey, nice movement stuff, true collection--not happening, unfortunately.

myhorsesonador:

Well, she has. And Northern has a point. I cannot stand to watch Clinton Anderson ride, because his horses are so terrified of bit contact it's appalling.


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## myhorsesonador

If you don't want help or opinions why do you post these videos?


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## Northern

I cannot stand to watch Clinton Anderson ride, because his horses are so terrified of bit contact it's appalling. (said bubba)

Me, neither! Horses aren't supposed to look at their knees as they move.:-(


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## equiniphile

bubba13 said:


> equiniphile:
> 
> I agree, but she's not a green horse. She's a seasoned nine-year-old competitor. She was broke and trained in the snaffle as a four-year-old, and still uses one on occasion (generally a Myler mullen D-ring). But she rides better in a curb.
> .


 First of all, _green_ is not determined by how long the horse has been under saddle, but how far he has progressed. Whether you think so or not, this horse is green. I would like to see how she goes in the Myler Dee.


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## kevinshorses

I don't really care what bit you use but if you want your horse to be more responsive and calmer then what I would do is take off the tie-down and fling it over the fence. All it does is give her something to brace against. Then STOP TRAINING and start riding. It looks like good open country around you so there should be no reason that you couldn't ride her at a walk for miles and miles. While you are travelling along once in a great while ask her to break at the poll. as soon as she does then realease all pressure. She has spent her life going in circles and that's why she is the way she is. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing time after time and expecting a different outcome. Riding in endless circles too fast is what made her this way so if you want her better then you will have to change what your doing.


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## bubba13

Northern:

While neither is correct, I'd actually much prefer my bracey horse to a CA bit-evasive horse. At least you can get ahold of mine to direct her movement.

equiniphile:

Maybe it's a quibble over terminology, but to me "green" means lacking miles, experience, and training. While my mare may have considerable bad habits, to me at least she is not in the slightest bit green.

I do not know when the next time I will get to ride her will be, due to the bad weather they're calling for in this area, my work/school schedule, and the fact that I need to ride my other horses (and pony her for exercise), but the next time I do I'll try to remember to pull out the D-ring and see how she does.


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## bubba13

kevinshorses:

By riding in circles do you mean what I do out in the pasture, like in the video, or running barrels?


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## vikki92

Have you tryed a HACKAMORE?!?!?!!???


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## bubba13

vikki92:

Yeah, I used to ride her in a Little S hackamore, but the only one I have has a rope noseband and to me that's too harsh--when she gets pulling, it can leave a dent in her nose. Can't have that. And any other "mechanical-type" hackamore is just going to be harsher and magnifiy that effect. I do occasionally ride her in a halter, but no real bitless bridle type assembly. I don't like sidepulls.


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## vikki92

what about the ones that have a rubber nose?







i use this type with almost all my horses & they all neck rain not pullrain. 
because most all westren horses neck rain! not pull!!


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## bubba13

I've got a long-shank mechanical hackamore with a flat leather nose, so similar concept. She's terrified of the swinging action of the shanks. The one time I rode her in it I didn't even have to pull back hard--the first time those shanks swung, she threw her head up and got about ready to bolt. I made a beeline back to the tackroom and haven't tried again since. I suppose I could wrap my Little S in SealTex and go with that, and may sometime in the future.

She does neck rein, but obviously not for barrel racing.


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## vikki92

gotcha! well For my critique, to me it looks as if your horse is very uptight. have u tryed you know just walkin around & not going fast all the time. to get him/her trianed! to be more relxed. then maybe if she gets more clam with you at a nice walk, then when you want to trott, canter, etc. she will not want to throw his/her head around becasue he/she will be more at ease with you & him/her slef. just a thought. I had a mare who did the same thing with her head all the time! so i took time & rode her till she got comfortably, then after alot of training and riding, i got to to drop her head at a nice level when i rode her, so it is possible! just have to have patience.


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## UnrealJumper

Bubba, I dont think it's necessary for suh long replies. Take the critique you asked for!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

Ok.


_________________


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## Northern

Roflmao!


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## wild_spot

I am not on here often nowadays, and didn't even see the previous thread, so fresh reply here.

What I have to say is similar to what others have said so you may not agree/want to hear it, but I will put it out there anyway.

I disgree with your views on bits, and I am far from a 'dressage queen'. I do speed events - mainly Mounted Games, with a bit of Sporting (That includes barrels). A big difference between our countries though is that Barrels is not a western only sport. It is done at Rodeos how it is done in the US but at country shows it is done out in a paddock, unfenced, and anyone who turned up in a curb would be out of place and possible turned away. Nearly every horse who does barrels at country shows is in some kind of snaffle. In mounted games, Curb bits are illegal. Mounted games is done at a gallop, carrying things - So mainly one handed, neck reining. It shows that a snaffle is perfectly effective for neck reining, and I believe, far more suited to speed events than any kind of leverage or gag bit. All my horses run speed events in snaffles, mostly a variety of Myler level one snaffles. They all neck rein and direct rein, and can be neck reined on the buckle in their snaffles.

I pride myself on having calm, well educated, and NEVER hot speed event horses. My main competition horse won age champion 5 years in a row - He is now teaching my intermediate cousin how to do speed events, and spent a while as a therapy horse at a Riding for the Disabled school.

Speed events/Barrels does NOT = Hot horses. How they are ridden and managed equals hot horses. 

Speed events are ALL about the flatwork. I don't practice speed events at home. I practice elements of the races, but never run a full race. I took my current horse to a country show a few weeks ago - I haven't done speed events on him in months. I came out of a ring class and put him in the mug race - He absolutely gunned it and we won our heat and won the final to be champion in that race - We then headed back into the ring and got called in for our hack class.

*

To the video.

I don't see anything particularly horrible. You sit fairly quietly, if a little lighter/stiffer than I would like (But perfectly justified). The mare is speedy, bracy, but nothing much worse than I see on a lot of the horses I compete against. The tie-down doesn't bother me overly as I well understand protecting your face and it isn't overly tight.

Here is what I would do - Take it or leave it.

Firstly, as others have said, put her back in a snaffle. There is NO WAY you can keep a consistent conact with her mouth in a curb bit with her flinging her head like that. Each fling is causing a spike in leverage, which is uncomfortable, which is causing more flinging. It's like bouncing a ball - She is bouncing between a place that is hard for her to maintain because it isn't her usual head carriage, and a place that causes the bit to bite a bit - Back and forth she goes, looking for an easy place, but not finding it. It isn't because of too tight reins persay, it is because of too tight reins for that bit. This horse obviously isn't used to travelling in a relaxed, round frame - Which many don't. But it means it is physically hard for her - She doesn't have the muscles to support it. So asking constantly for her to be round on a circle is more than I would be asking from this horse at this stage.

I would go back to the walk, in a snaffle, and work on body control more than rein control. I apologise for not watching the video to the end - but can you side pass her both ways without resistance? Can you leg yeild her both ways while walking? I find the key to relaxing a hot horse is to bend their body and redirect that forward energy sideways. In an out and out forward battle, you will lose. So ficues less on slowing her down and getting her head down, and more on redirecting energy and making her think and work - Which will be easier for her with a lower headcarriage.

You said she flexes laterally well from the saddle - Good! Now advance it! Flex her on a small circle and use your leg to keep her body out on the circle while her head is flexed. This is a fantastic exercise for suppling, calming, taking out the fiz, dropping the head without holding it down, giving a consistent rein aid that won't cause head bouncing, using one rein so she can't brace against it as effectively, and also improves turns greatly. Basically drop your outside rein, keep her very flexed, and use your inside leg to keep her out on a small circle and your outside leg to stop her blowing out of the circle. 

That would be my main excercise on this horse for a number of weeks. Once she does it calmly at a walk, with her head low, you can progress to a trot. Keep the inside rein only - She will rush, and try to brace, just sit, keep her flexed so she can't gain momentum, keep her where you want her with your legs, and let her regulate her own speed. 

*

Pretty long post already so i'll leave it at that - I'm happy to elabroate if you would like, just let me know. Those are just my thoughts and what I would do/have done in a similar situation.


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## tinyliny

exceptionally well said! I see elements of what I was trying to say , but you did much better, and much nicer. No sense in jumping down anyone's throat.


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## bubba13

wild_spot:

I understand there are different mindsets coming from the English and Western spectrums, and while we both do the same sport technically, that there are two drastically different approaches with different philosophies. I don't think that anything you or I could say could convince the other of the "properness" of the one's choice of bit. I will say that I would almost certainly get bounced right off if I attempted to chase the cans on ol' gray in an English saddle, however. 

You will see some barrel horses run in snaffles around, but rarely at the higher levels--and the ones that are wearing snaffles are almost without fail additionally tied down with twisted wire tie-downs and chain head bonnets and the like. I think a big part of the difference may come from the breeding of the horses (our American Western are bred specifically to run barrels or have a combination of cow and racing breeding, and they are bred to be "fiery"), and then the way that they are trained from breaking on.

I would be curious to see a competition between the best of the mounted games / gymkhana horses and the best rodeo barrel horses. Gut instinct, while biased, tells me that the latter would blow the former out of the water. While the mounted games horses are probably better all-around jack-of-all-trades family horses with more versatility, I would expect the barrel horses to be the more finely tuned and exceptional athletes. Now I'm really curious to see....

I agree that barrel racing does have to necessitate hotness. But when a horse is bred to run, and then asked to run, it's nearly inevitable that they get jacked up. I think I've mentioned before, either is this thread or the previous one, that I cannot and will not tolerate a truly crazy horse. But the hotness displayed in this video is acceptable to me for a horse of my gray's level. I've helped to make her this way through my choice of discipline; now I have to deal with the consequences.

I've only just started to ask her to actually side pass. For some reason that's a skill that never crossed my mind to teach. I can move her laterally--not enough to satisfy dressage people, but correctly for barrels. You can see some of it at the end of the first trotting clip of the video (I'm assuming you watched that far, about halfway in). She moves off of the leg and I pick her nose up lightly to direct. She does raise her head up high, but she's soft and listening. When you say "leg yields," I have to admit I don't specifically know what you mean by the term.

I wouldn't be opposed to switching to a snaffle on the trails and in the field, but I'm not sure how she'll tolerate that. I can certainly try the next time I ride her.

She can certainly do the spiraling in and out of the circle using only the inside rein and leg. Might be her most responsive skill, actually. Now mind you, her head is quite high while she does it, but she gives her nose to the inside and listens nicely.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.


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## AlexS

Bubba if you have a snaffle that fits her, and you have the time and willingness why not video your ride and post it here? It would certainly be a good way to move on with the conversation so you are not always stuck in a bit discussion.


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## riccil0ve

Why do you bother making these threads if all you're going to do is argue every point made?

I do like the horse. I really like her, actually. I think this mare has potential for dressage that is being blocked by her rider. I agree with the majority of the critiques. This is mostly rider error.


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## DubyaS6

Dumb question:

Have you ever tried riding her and NOT worrying about her head?

Remove tiedown, replace Argentine Snaffle with regular snaffle or even french link type snaffle and just ride the horse. Let her do her thing. If she wants to run around, go for the ride without yanking on her head (not implying that you do, just stating dont do it). Stay deep in your seat asking for her to slow, but do NOT put pressure on the bit.

She will tire out, promise. Its hard to just go for the ride, but eventually she will figure out that you arent going to be in her mouth every time you get on her. You also arent going to be asking her to run around in circles either.

With the tiedown gone, she will have to balance herself which will be new to her. She will build up these muscles that she hasnt had to use in a while and then eventually she will naturally lower her head herself without you having to ask her.

Once you can get on her and not have her want to run off, you can then ask her for more forward impulsion and then not have her throw her head immediately up looking to brace on the tiedown or get above the bit.


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## Golden Horse

riccil0ve said:


> Why do you bother making these threads if all you're going to do is argue every point made?
> 
> .


Actually I'm really enjoying reading the discussion and I don't see Bubba's responses as arguing as such.

I know it's frustrating when you give what you think is fantastic advice only to have someone say "yeah great but"!!!

At the very least you know from Bubba's replies that she is at least reading and thinking about what everyone is saying.

What I have got so far,

a) Don't be so quick to make judgements about peoples riding based on only one clip, it might not tell the whole story.

b) You can offer all the advice in the world, but there is no way that you can make people accept it, just be glad that they heard it.

c) We have people from lots of different disciplines replying here and we all want slightly different things from our horses. Having been brought up riding English, then converting to Western, and last year eventually discovering dressage, I can see where most of you arecoming from.

d) For most things there are more than one right answer.

I would love it if we could have a get together and to see a dressage rider having a turn on Bones, just to see what would happen


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## mswp27

UnrealJumper said:


> Bubba, I dont think it's necessary for suh long replies. Take the critique you asked for!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you!!


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## equiniphile

Excellent advice by Wild_Spot, I sincerely hope you appreciate her taking time out of her day to offer advice....advice that you've proven yourself unwilling of implementing into your training.


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## Northern

Golden Horse said:


> Actually I'm really enjoying reading the discussion and I don't see Bubba's responses as arguing as such.
> 
> At the very least you know from Bubba's replies that she is at least reading and thinking about what everyone is saying.


THIS^^JUST, THIS! If you people can't handle your advice not being chug-a-lugged blindly by OP, don't offer it! Also, with so much _differing _advice, is OP to go insane trying to implement _all_ of it? :shock:


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## Whisper22

Just out of curiosity, while I'm sure the OP is appreciative, what gives you the right to tell her she should be while others are telling her to basically keep her mouth shut on her own thread. Excellent point by Northern.


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## Amlalriiee

tinyliny said:


> I would ride her forward, at a walk and when I picked up contact, if she threw her head in the air, nose high, I would actualy lift my hands, (don't try to pull her down, but rather lift your hands along with her lifting her head. Counterintuitive, but try it.) Apply a fair amount of contact, one rein more than the other, and wait until she changed. I want her to put her nose down, so I won't release until she does. She'll lift her head higher, swing it around, try this and that until she accidentally puts the nose down and that's when I'll give a big release and ask her to walk on.
> Repeat, repeat repeat. So, she stops putting her nose in the air. I migth actually apply a LOT more pressure than you currently are, but I am specifically looking for that drop of the nose and then I give a total release.
> i would do all this at the walk.
> The next step would be getting her to take the reins out and forward and stretch down. I can explain that too, but my point in writing this was that having feather light contact all the time is not always what is needed.


I'm glad you posted this, as I watched this video and it reminded me a lot of how my mare holds her head at the trot! (I believe due to her previous owner...but I won't say I'm 100% innocent) Anyway, this is a good visual on what to work on!! THANKS!

ETA: Wild_Spot...thank you as well, some of your ideas I will also be trying out!


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## Spyder

bubba13 said:


> ? She has excellent flexion from side to side



Actually it was a disaster.

The horse did move sideways but the outside shoulder was bulged into the motion direction, the head was in the air and if she went any faster sideways she may have tripped and fallen.




> Less so for vertical flexion, though she's perfect on the ground, it does not always translate to under saddle at speeds faster than a walk.


Please don't practice it at any gait faster than a walk as clearly it isn't there. I highly doubt that it is "perfect" when it is so imperfect undersaddle.




> But she also knows how to drop her head while still maintaining a hollowed back, which requires me to send the spur into her belly to get her to pick her back up and round, which means she gets mad at the instrusion, jolts forward, and raises her head again.


No she has not shown this. All I see is is a horse is is running through the aids and if you are spurring her belly it is no wonder she is doing this.



> I'm not contradicting everything. I'm separating the wheat from the chaff based on what I know of my horse and my riding.


No you are not contradicting everything, you are simply making excuses.


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## tinyliny

I can imagine that Bubba feels really defensive, by now. I know I would. It feels like we are ganging up on her.
However, the thing to look at in this situation is not that she has gotten a lot of different , conflicting advice, but rather that many different persons see basically the same thing in those videos, and the advice given , while different persons have chosen to focus on different things (from letting her fun free some (just ride her!), to get her to bring her nose down (me)), those bits of advice actually interlock extremely well into a program for changing the way this horse moves. All these things will help her rider sit better and will help keep the horse sound , which her rider is very much wanting to do (as evidenced by the great amount of money she has spent and her willingness to "bare her soul" online to all of us)

The overwhelming conisistency of the views expressed here and advice for change should be given real weight by the OP . This many people seeing the same thing and feeling the same about changes that would be wise to make must mean something! 
It is one of the rare times on HF when most of us DO agree. It's better than average.


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## wild_spot

On my phone, so I'll just comment re: mounted games/sporting vs. rodeo barrels for now. 

I guess you got from my post that most/all speed horses here are also quiet enough for kids and quite calm - far from it! Many of the horses I compete against make your mare look like a saint. We regularly swap horses in training here and those horses invariably don't listen to leg, have no brakes, can't bend their body... What I wrote about was the standard I hold my horses to. I don't believe it is fair on a horse to let them live trapped in such an atmosphere of tension/excitement - it would be exhausting!

The barrels we run are generally much larger patterns, and are on grass rather than sand. You are correct, it makes it a very different event. I wouldn't be so sure the rodeo horses would blow us out of the water, though. Our horses are bred for long days working cattle, fast and furious games of polocrosse, but also to be quiet and calm while doing it. It doesn't make them slower, or less of an athlete. In fact most sporting horses have to run multiple events in one day - a minimum of barrels, bending, flagging, and sometimes up to ten or more events - so fitness and athletic ability is of prime performance! 

A sporting horse and a games pony are usually very different things - only a few successfully cross over, my boy just happened to be one of them. Games ponies are usually smaller, mixed breed ponies who are lightening quick for there size, but are small enough to vault on and puck things up from the ground at a gallop. Sporting horses are usually bigger, ASH, QH or Tb or a mix of those.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azhorseluvr1222

Aside from the drama I have actually learned a lot, training wise from this thread. Wild spot, tinyliny, amirilee, and equinphile, I have always enjoyed your advice as it is very common sense and easy to understand(even if I have google some of the terms). Even if the OP argues or defends she is at least reading and absorbing some info. She also has some guts posting videos of her riding, I wouldn't have taken you guys on :wink:


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## bsms

Whisper22 said:


> Just out of curiosity, while I'm sure the OP is appreciative, what gives you the right to tell her she should be while others are telling her to basically keep her mouth shut on her own thread. Excellent point by Northern.


Ummm...no one went to where the OP lives and forced their views on her. During the last few days, she has posted a half dozen videos and asked what people think - so she ought to appreciate those who take the time to do what she asked them to do.

Many of the OP replies have been along the lines of 'It is just how my mare moves/behaves/acts, and I have to ride her this way' - which may be, for all I know. But if so, why ask other people to take time and type out advice?

Craig Cameron (Amazon.com: Ride Smart: Improve Your Horsemanship Skills on the Ground and in the Saddle (Western Horseman Books): Craig Cameron: Books) tells the story of working on a ranch, and having the owner ask him to come by and give him a list of reasons why things aren't working the way they ought. He worked on it, and filled several pages. When he met the owner, the owner read the paper, handed it back and replied, "The only thing that ought to be on this paper is your name."

He then explained that no one can control weather, trucks breaking, illness - but you can control your response and either make things better or worse.

I had a similar experience in the military...my commander looking me in the eye and telling me he paid me to get the best results possible, not excuses.

In riding, I have a long established bad habit of leaning forward. I was using a flat jump saddle on some horses that sometimes leaped forward because of...???? So I rode defensively and made excuses, and didn't improve my riding until I took responsibility for how I rode. I wasn't going to change horses, I wasn't up to riding well in that saddle and I was getting worse with time. So what was I willing to do?

I switched to an Australian style saddle semi-permanently a few months ago, and my confidence in my ability to stay on the horse shot up. I started relaxing in the saddle, stopped trying to hold on with death-grip knees, gave the horses their heads instead of trying to hold them back, and in 6 weeks I've made more progress than in the previous 2 years.

I still have lots of flaws as a rider, but they won't solve themselves. I am responsible for my riding, and I'm responsible for my horses' behavior.

Based on watching the videos posted, some in freeze frame, I'd say the biggest problem with this horse is the rider. She needs to make a list of reasons why this horse acts the way it does, and that list ought to have her name on it and nothing else. There are lots of things she cannot control, so she needs to focus on the one thing she CAN control - herself.

SHE determines what tack is used, where she rides, how she rides and the agenda of each ride. What she is doing isn't working, so TRY something else. No more "Speed 'Racking' Foundation Quarter Horse". Change bits. Change the agenda of each ride - focus on slow. The horse can't run barrels now anyways, so take the time to teach it something else. Teaching it to walk won't ruin it for barrel racing. Change posture. Build trust. Set one or two goals to work on, and work on those goals consistently. Focus on what you control, not on what you cannot change. Don't even try to lower her head - just focus on getting her to toss it less. Pick a couple of small steps, and take them. Accept that it may be months or even years before the horse is ready to ride barrels again. Maybe never, if barrel racing encourages her to move like that.

Accept responsibility for the horse's behavior, or accept that it won't change.


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## tinyliny

*take us on? Yikes ! are we that scary?*



azhorseluvr1222 said:


> Aside from the drama I have actually learned a lot, training wise from this thread. Wild spot, tinyliny, amirilee, and equinphile, I have always enjoyed your advice as it is very common sense and easy to understand(even if I have google some of the terms). Even if the OP argues or defends she is at least reading and absorbing some info. She also has some guts posting videos of her riding, I wouldn't have taken you guys on :wink:


Horesluver, you crack me up! I am going to tease you now! get ready!

Are we really that scary? Are you kidding? Now Speed Racer, she's scary. She knows it , too. I wouldn't take her on. And someothers.

I am a self proclaimed bser and book spouter, so don't worry about us.
But really, I am tickled pink to fall into that category. Totally makes my day. I kind of wanted to be scary, in my dark dreams.


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## azhorseluvr1222

tinyliny said:


> Horesluver, you crack me up! I am going to tease you now! get ready!
> 
> Are we really that scary? Are you kidding? Now Speed Racer, she's scary. She knows it , too. I wouldn't take her on. And someothers.
> 
> I am a self proclaimed bser and book spouter, so don't worry about us.
> But really, I am tickled pink to fall into that category. Totally makes my day. I kind of wanted to be scary, in my dark dreams.


Not scary just well, totally honest and its what I like about this forum. Love this place.


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## Northern

tinyliny said:


> . I kind of wanted to be scary, in my dark dreams.


As long as you're not a scary predator to horses, remember! Just a wee reminder, before you don your Dracula cape!


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## tinyliny

Bruuuuhaahaaaha!


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## Whisper22

I learn great things from this forum every day, but with the internet comes a whole lot of people that lack courtesy and friendliness because they have a computer to hide behind. And on a forum where there are a lot of self proclaimed experts it is to be expected when their advice isn't worshiped. Bubba has actually been very open to the critisizm she has gotten and hasn't overreacted or been overly defensive to anyone's bashing. If you want short and sweet, maybe you should take your oppinions elsewhere, this obviously wasn't the thread for you
bsms - I see posts like yours, which don't bother me in the least, but make me wonder why the OP is the only one being told to keep hers short, which is just plain rude, especially on her thread. I would never tell someone "yeah, you talk too much" on here. I just wouldn't read it and I would take my time and oppinions somewhere else.


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## Northern

I'm sure that bubba will appreciate your words, Whisper22!


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## kevinshorses

I'm going to try one more time for the OP. In a previous post the OP stated that she wasn't good at "dressage-y things". Those dressage-y things are fundementals in any kind of horsemanship. They are the skills that are put together to accomplish what the rider is asking for. If you can't get a horse to back up soft and light or walk with the correct head set and impulsion then you should work on those things rather than trotting and loping in circles and wondering why your horse isn't changing. I agree that the horse isn't green. The horse is spoiled and on the fast track to ruined. It's not because the OP is mean or stupid, it's just a matter of putting first steps first. You don't build a house starting with the roof.


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## mswp27

kevinshorses said:


> If you can't get a horse to back up soft and light or walk with the correct head set and impulsion then you should work on those things rather than trotting and loping in circles and wondering why your horse isn't changing.


I completely agree. Maybe taking lessons under a trainer would help. I know if I didn't take lessons, my horse would be a hot head, running around with his head in the air all the time with a hollow back. I wouldn't know what to do other than to seek professional advice, which is what I think you should do. 

Using this forum to seek advice is good in that you obtain many different opinions and then reflections off of those opinions, but the people on the forum only know as much information as your horse as provided in the videos and posts. However, a trainer can touch on everything and can work with you in person. 

I think going to this forum is a good start, but going to a trainer would be much more efficient.


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## kevinshorses

bsms said:


> There are lots of things she cannot control, so she needs to focus on the one thing she CAN control - herself.
> 
> SHE determines what tack is used, where she rides, how she rides and the agenda of each ride. What she is doing isn't working, so TRY something else. No more "Speed 'Racking' Foundation Quarter Horse". Change bits. Change the agenda of each ride - focus on slow. The horse can't run barrels now anyways, so take the time to teach it something else. Teaching it to walk won't ruin it for barrel racing. Change posture. Build trust. Set one or two goals to work on, and work on those goals consistently. Focus on what you control, not on what you cannot change. Don't even try to lower her head - just focus on getting her to toss it less. Pick a couple of small steps, and take them. Accept that it may be months or even years before the horse is ready to ride barrels again. Maybe never, if barrel racing encourages her to move like that.
> 
> Accept responsibility for the horse's behavior, or accept that it won't change.


If the OP were to read nothing else on this forum she should read this!!!


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## trailhorserider

I didn't read through all 8 pages of responses, so I'm not sure what other people have said, but here's my take on the horse.

She hates, hates, hates her bit! She just can't take contact on it at all without fussing and fighting. 

One of my Arabians taught me years ago, that when the horse tosses it's head, you actually need a milder bit, not a stronger one. :wink:

I would personally try something like one of these:

Myler low port comfort snaffle (semi-solid ported mouthpiece, like a curb without all the leverage!)

Western Bits - Myler Western Dee Low Port Comfort Snaffle (MB 04)

"C" Ported curb bit (what I like about this one is the short shanks- it is hard to find mild curbs with short shanks)

Medium Port C Bit: Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com

And don't use the tie down. I actually think this horse is very patient and forgiving to put up with a bit and/or mouth contact that she hates so much. Just the fact that she canters and trots nicely without bucking you off to me means she is a patient, good horse. She just can't stand the bit/tie down combination on her right now. Maybe instead of constant contact, try a gentle tug and release to slow her down and give her slack rein as much as you can. Like I said, I don't know if it's contact in general she hates, or just what she is being ridden in, but it's not working.

Maybe you see a fussy horse. I see a very patient horse that hates it's biting arrangement.

I actually do like argentine snaffles, they are my favorite go-to bit, but this bit with this horse is just not working! 

My Foxtrotter mare hates anything with a broken mouthpiece, and the two above bits are what I ride her in and she does great it them. Anything with a broken mouthpiece and she gapes and fusses. Maybe your horse would like a more solid mouthpiece with lighter contact like my mare does.


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## trailhorserider

bubba13 said:


>


I just read page 2. 

If she loves this bit, then just ride her in it. I have ridden in the same bit(s) for years and never had the horses get "dull" to them. If she likes it, go with it! 

It's actually along the lines of what I was telling you about in my above post. 

I would still skip the tie down and ride with lighter contact, even a totally loose rein when she will let you do it. And like someone else said (maybe Kevin'shorses) get her out and ride her on the trail and let her relax. Several hours of trail riding at a time would be good for her.


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## kevinshorses

Trailhorserider: I REALLY don't think the problem is in the horses mouth. There have been too many steps skipped. All those dressage-y things that the OP doesn't think are critical have combined to create a mess. The OP seems to be looking for a quick fix and as most of us know there is no such thing.


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## Hukassa

To my eye, your hands are much more forgiving than than the first video you posted, and your riding is much better. You ride like you know this mare like the back of your, like you know all the tricks she'll pull, all of her quirks and such. Is their anything wrong with this? No, of course not, but their is always room for improvement. She looks very stiff, and strongly agree with you on getting her back checked for soreness and such.


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## kitten_Val

kevinshorses said:


> I'm going to try one more time for the OP. In a previous post the OP stated that she wasn't good at "dressage-y things". Those dressage-y things are fundementals in any kind of horsemanship. They are the skills that are put together to accomplish what the rider is asking for. If you can't get a horse to back up soft and light or walk with the correct head set and impulsion then you should work on those things rather than trotting and loping in circles and wondering why your horse isn't changing. I agree that the horse isn't green. The horse is spoiled and on the fast track to ruined. It's not because the OP is mean or stupid, it's just a matter of putting first steps first. You don't build a house starting with the roof.


Excellent post, Kevin!


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## bubba13

Before replying to individuals, and while waiting for today's video to upload, let me share a story.

2006. I get the option to purchase a half-share on a scrawny gray mare for cheap. She's supposedly had 30 days of training, but it doesn't show. She cowers and shakes when you try to throw the saddle on her back (and continues to do so for the next six months) and when you mount up, if you kick her hard enough she'll walk in a straight line; if you haul hard enough with one of the reins, she'll turn; if you pull straight back long enough she'll stop. And that's all she knows. But I like her, and although I have very limited experience in breaking and training young green horses, I take over all of her riding. She's supposed to be a resale project with my partner, but I end up seeing her potential as a barrel horse and buying out his share six months later.

I make the effort to ride her right. I don't skip steps; I keep her in the snaffle until I feel she's ready for a curb, I trail ride her a lot, I practice barrels but keep her slow and make sure she's mentally ready before moving to the next step. I do my best to keep her quiet; keep her moving off of seat and leg aids to the best of my ability, keep her soft in the bridle.

I'm working with a barrel coach/trainer at the time. She never rides my horses, but she watches me and gives pointers during my weekly lesson. She and her daughter are both multiple-time world champions, riding horses she trained and under her direction. She likes the mare, too. Thinks she's too powerful, though, and wants to bring her down to a more manageable level. I've never liked how harsh this woman is, and refuse to let her ride my horses, but she's the best advice I've got and so I take it. Soon I've got the gray mare in a combination chain-mouthed gag bit and a running martingale. It works, for a couple of times. And then she realizes the can evade the bit by flinging her head to the ground every time I take ahold of her. She learns to bolt and brace against the reins so tightly that she's immune to bit pressure. I can hardly control her. Around this time, I get fed up with the "trainer" and quit for good.

It's winter of '08 by now, if I recall the dates. The mare is unmanageable. I try to take her on trail rides but all she wants to do is run, despite the fact that I have never allowed her to do so. If I attempt to keep her from bolting, she'll leap in the air and run off anyway. The only way I can stop her is to circle her in smaller and smaller spaces until she stops fighting. I'm about ready to give up.

In desperation, I consult my vet, asking if there could be a physical cause. She takes one look at the mare and recommends drugging her. I'm torn, but after significant research, I agree to giving her half of the normal lowest recommended dosage of Reserpine. It works like a charm--she rides great now. But ethically, I just can't live with myself, so I stop after a month.

At this point it's either stop riding her for good, or bring in another trainer, one of only two barrel racers in this area that I consider to be a true horsewoman and not a speed-demon, horse-abusing yahoo. So I do the latter, as a last resort. At first she thinks the mare is done; blown; over. But she takes another look and sees there is hope. She gives me the cable tie-down, tells me to stop fighting the mare and let her fight herself--the tie-down will hurt when she raises her head to hit it, so she'll bring her head down and I won't have to pull on the reins. That, and she tells me to run the snot out of her to keep her tired. The latter suggestion, I think, is bunk, but the former works.

Just one short session with that trainer, and I take over everything else from there. And the mare calms down, focuses, and rides better. And we start winning barrel races. She gets hurt in May of '09, so we're out for the whole season. In 2010 she comes back as an unstoppable force. "Crazy" in the pasture (what you see in the video), but sane and focused at barrel races, the opposite of any horse I've ever ridden. The longer she goes between competition runs, the hotter she gets. So long as she's hauled every weekend, she stays calm and relaxed throughout the week. Give her a few weeks off from running barrels and she's back to panting at the bit and begging to run the trails. I know it doesn't make sense, but that's how it works.

She got hurt again in August. I went back to riding her lightly in October. I just started trying to get her in shape again two weeks ago. And that's where we're at.


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## sarahver

What an interesting story. I actually read all eight pages and found it all to be intriguing. Bubba, I never read your other threads (prob gonna go look em up now though he he) but am gonna comment here.

For what it is worth, here is my $0.02.

You have a nice, solid, athletic mare. I know nothing of barrel racing, you can count me in with the English folk. I do however know a thing or two about horse training. The tie down is only masking an underlying issue. Since it is masking the issue somewhat, sure you are seeing that some of the adverse behavior is being alleviated. Don't be mistaken, it is NOT being cured.

I understand your choice to ride in a curb bit however, given the above information, I think your horse needs a tune up in a snaffle first. She has had some time off, been interrupted by injury and understandably, is a little fresh. All horses need a refresher course after a spell.

I think she just needs a tune up.

Do what you want, she's your horse. Let me just say this: If she was my horse I would put her back in a snaffle, take the tie down off and ride and ride and ride until she was _relaxed_ and _responsive_ again. 

Perhaps you could do this for a few months, then try the curb again.


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## kitten_Val

I didn't quite understand from your post, so let me ask... Do you work with the trainer or trying to bring her up yourself? I have no experience with barrel racing (and don't think I ever will as I have no interest :wink: ), but I believe any horse (unless it's a total mental wreck) can be calmed down and re-trained (if needed) with the good trainer. If you are really stuck I'd just suggest to look for one (and it's not always that easy). Advices on Internet are great, but the live trainer is always much more beneficial.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I just read all 9 pages, and I learned a lot!

Kudos to the OP - regardless of anyone's views, she's handled being ganged up on remarkably well and seems to have read everyone's advice and thought it over. I've been in this EXACT position before, where people are giving you advice and swear they know that horse better then you do based on a few videos and any explanation you try to give is met as resistance - often it's NOT resistance, it's from knowing this animal inside out, trying various things and knowing what doesn't work.

This sounds like my mare - put her in a saffle and good luck. She hates bits, she hates contact. She rides decent on a loose rein in the arena, but you hit the trail and she wants to run - I tried a tom thumb which she loves when she's not fighting me, but makes me feel like a COW when I'm hauling on her. Slapped a mechanical hack on her - fleece noseband, short shanked, chain curb strap. This worked fairly decent for quite some time - you could have a steady pressure without ruining her mouth when she was going crazy. A couple years ago that stopped working - she'd jig and prance until she finally BLEW by exploding violently into the air and bolting. The only way to make her calm down was to circle her endlessly.

It's been a series of leg injuries interrupting my progress, but I've discovered my new best friend - my Nurtural bitless bridle. My Arab absolutely DETESTS bits, always has - she'll lean into them like crazy, and plays with them constantly (she was just floated this past spring, zero change). The hack I liked, but the chain was to much and making her do her Arab "smile" anytime we fought with each other and I couldn't straight rein in it.

I'm ADORING my bitless bridle which is the best of every world - Zierra is happy, she's thinking instead of fighting, I can ride her on a loose rein OR with a contact and I have superb direct rein capabilities that deliver total understanding. Our last two trail rides have gone brilliant - walking nicely, and when she gets excited I can gently coax her back down. I've taken her tie downs and martingales off.

Best of luck!


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## riccil0ve

You know, MM, if that were the case, I could accept that. But that is not the feel I get from the OP. She started out defensive in the first post. It is one thing to say that your horse does not like apples. It is another to say that your horse simply doesn't need the basics or any real foundation, so all advice pertaining to that is moot.


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## ShezaCharmer

I agree with many of the others on here when they say this horse needs her basics before worrying about anything else. The OP looks like a nice decent rider but is riding in the wrong kinda bit. As MM said I would try a bitless bridle because I have a feeling this mare might actually detest bits or if she doesn't now will soon. 
She looks like a nice mare otherwise and with a little retraining she could be a great all-around horse! I see dressage, hunter, barrels, and everyything else bundled up into her.


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## MacabreMikolaj

riccil0ve said:


> You know, MM, if that were the case, I could accept that. But that is not the feel I get from the OP. She started out defensive in the first post. It is one thing to say that your horse does not like apples. It is another to say that your horse simply doesn't need the basics or any real foundation, so all advice pertaining to that is moot.


I know where you're coming from, just trying to give the benefit of the doubt. I try not to make excuses either, I just know I've been a position before where people are getting mad because I won't do something. However, it's almost always because I HAVE tried it before and it didn't work.


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## riccil0ve

Yes, but you've always said you tried it, can admit to being the problem, and haven't waved off the basics. All I see from the OP is excuses, but I do get your point. And hey, as mentioned, the OP is reading everything, right?


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## AlexS

riccil0ve said:


> You know, MM, if that were the case, I could accept that. But that is not the feel I get from the OP. She started out defensive in the first post. It is one thing to say that your horse does not like apples. It is another to say that your horse simply doesn't need the basics or any real foundation, so all advice pertaining to that is moot.



Ricci, the OP has a few times mentioned things that she could improve and she has stated that she would like to help her horse. While she may be a little over defensive she is also getting jumped on by a whole group of people. 

I don't think she would be asking for advise and reading and responding to it if she didn't want the advise.


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## MagicDestiny

What are you looking to get out of this thread? What are you looking to fix on your mare? Are you looking to fix her if she's already a good barrel horse which what you predominately use her for? To me in the video, she looks to be stiff and tense which is what others have been saying as well. But, if she's been off work with an injury, she's out of shape and this is to be expected. If she were my horse, I'd put her in a milder snaffle and work on bending and suppling, to get her working all her muscles and gaining strength again. Lot's of circles and serpentines to get her loosened up and having her body following her head and getting her loosened up again. She just looks really stiff through the shoulders and neck area, thus she keeps her head up and hollows her back. Also, encouraging her to drop her head and walk long and low will help strengthen her back and get her engaging her hindquarters. I think part of her head carriage is conformation, but part of it is the way her muscles are developed and it's out of habit as well. The suppling and bending exercises will also make her more able to turn tight corners for barrels and stuff too. I am by no means an expert, but this is just what I am seeing with what you've shown. Anyway, I hope you get the advice or critique you're looking for!


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## mswp27

This thread really is not getting anywhere anymore. Everyone is saying the same thing over again.


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## riccil0ve

Yes, Alex, but basics are basics. If she wants to help her mare, which she very well may want to do, she has to fill the holes in the mare's foundation. Avoiding that to find a quick fix is just bad horsemanship.

I, personally, have not seen anyone on this thread be excessively rude. Nor do I think anyone is being jumped on. As I said, basics are basics, which is what everyone has basically been saying the horse needs.


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## riccil0ve

Okay, I'm going to give this a real shot.

The first video in the other thread is atrocious. Really. From the video on this thread, I don't think you are a bad rider, but you clearly had a bad moment in that last video. The mare was strung out and clearly unhappy. I don't think it was "good exercise," especially coming off an injury that held her up for a year. Trot work is good exercise. A steady trot, not that. She was bracing against your hands, showing that your rein aids are totally moot.

This video, she shows her true potential. It would be a **** shame to not let her reach that potential because you are too proud. Lose the tie-down, and put her in a D-ring or eggbutt French link, and as Kevin said, just ride her. You're theory was that she can fight herself with the tie-down, but all it does is give her something to brace against. She cannot, I repeat, CANNOT brace against that which isn't there. Sometimes, horses just get stuck.

Keep her at a walk. When you can get her soft and relaxed at the walk, start trotting again. A natural head carriage is fine, she doesn't need to be fully round and arched like a dressage master. But comfortable. Keep off her face. When she lifts her nose up at the walk, inch your reins shorter and bring your hands slowly upward. When she drops, BIG praise.

Get her listening to your seat. While walking, deep breath in, and on your exhale, tighten your tummy muscles, squeeze the reins, and halt your seat. Most horses will hesitate. Praise. Rinse, lather, repeat. Find her zen, she has one, and make sure you keep your cool. While posting her trot, post small, use your muscles and only bring your bum an inch or two out of the saddle. Ask her to come to you. Create the tempo and invite her to join you. It will be uncomfortable for you two to be on a different rhythm, and with encouragement, she will ease up. And remember, do not let her brace on your hands! You need to "bump" more than keep a steady pressure. Try some half halts, inside leg, outside rein, and tummy muscles. You really want her to halfway halt.

If you want to encourage her to accept the contact, keep a slight feel of her mouth, and slowly increase the contact in one rein for a few strides. Go back to "neutral," and bring up the contact in the other rein. This is not to be confused with see-sawing. There should be a point of neutral between each rein.

Lastly, be sure to master a gait before you move up to the next. Stay at the walk until she's got it. Same at the trot. Asking her to trot or canter is just going to exacerbate the problem. I don't know why the majority of people insist they mist canter with every ride. I only canter my mare when I know I'm going to get a good canter. I know I'll get a good canter because her trot work is rhythmical and supple. Why go from a strung out and stiff trot to a strung out and stiff canter? It's just asking for a fight. Set this horse up for success.

You said you are only willing to accept "your share" of a blame. The truth is, we really are all the problem. It is our job to work with the horse. What you are doing doesn't work for her. Fine. Change what you are doing. Don't expect her to conform to you, because it will be a losing battle.


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## .Delete.

Here is my simple opinion, i didnt look at the first thread so bare with me here. 

If your serious about training this mare to do whatever your trying to do (personally i dont see why it matters that much, unless i missed something and your planning on showing her). *Get a trainer*. You can only learn so much from the internet, its time to get some hands on face to face instruction if your really wanting to improve you and your mare.


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## bsms

What riccil0ve wrote ^^^

One place I might differ is with riding her in contact. I understand it for reining, jumping and dressage. I don't object to it with other sports, but I don't know how badly it is needed. I'm a general purpose rider who doesn't compete in anything, so my perspective may differ.

The mare I sold last December would often act like that when ridden with contact. Since I didn't need it, I dropped it. After one particularly thrashing spell of riding, I put a bitless bridle - a side pull rope halter - on her. When she started to get upset with being held back, I gave her her head. She raced around for a couple of minutes while I just stayed calm on her back with loose reins...then she slowed. When she did, I asked for turns with the reins and she gave them. Likewise a stop. The next ride was with a bit, and as long as I didn't insist on contact, she was fine.

Could I have eventually trained her to accept the bit? Probably, but my riding didn't require it. With a snaffle and a loose rein, she was a willing and eager partner. With constant contact, she was resentful and inclined to fight. And fight. And fight. Lots of spirit, but I could choose to make it a fight or to have a partner. *My choice*.

If I had wanted contact, I would first have needed to get her used to riding without it, and then introduce it a little at a time until she accepted it. I"m not saying riding with contact is wrong, just that some horses need to start without it. Once they trust you, then introduce contact - if you wish it.


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## Alwaysbehind

wild_spot said:


> <snip>
> 
> Speed events/Barrels does NOT = Hot horses. How they are ridden and managed equals hot horses.
> <snip>


Exactly.
I was reading through the locked thread and I was shocked when the OP posted that since her horse is for speed events there was no reason to work on slow gaits, etc.



bsms said:


> SHE determines what tack is used, where she rides, how she rides and the agenda of each ride. What she is doing isn't working, so TRY something else. No more "Speed 'Racking' Foundation Quarter Horse". Change bits. Change the agenda of each ride - focus on slow. The horse can't run barrels now anyways, so take the time to teach it something else. Teaching it to walk won't ruin it for barrel racing. Change posture. Build trust. Set one or two goals to work on, and work on those goals consistently. Focus on what you control, not on what you cannot change. Don't even try to lower her head - just focus on getting her to toss it less. Pick a couple of small steps, and take them. Accept that it may be months or even years before the horse is ready to ride barrels again. Maybe never, if barrel racing encourages her to move like that.
> 
> Accept responsibility for the horse's behavior, or accept that it won't change.


Yepper!


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## farmpony84

I've read through all of the critiques and I first want to ask, where is the OP being argumentative? To me it appears she is responding to comments/advice being giving with an explanation on her view. I've always felt that it is hard to judge a person or a horse from a mere video, even from a few videos. 

I've noticed alot of argument on the bit. I'm on the fence with that one. I have always felt that a bit is only as harsh as the riders hands. This rider does not have harsh hands, they are actually pretty quiet. She's not jerking or pulling. This mare could actually find a happy place with her contact if she weren't so bent on avoiding the bit all together. 

It sounds to me that this mare has been off for some time with an injury which means she is going to be unbalanced, rusty, and go-ey. What her training level is, I don't know. I am not a barrel racer so I don't know what training for that sort of sport entails. I really liked Kevins advice, which was... just ride the horse. Miles and miles of riding and walking, let her find her mind again. I don't think the horse is in danger of having her mouth ripped wide open or the rider is smacking her unmercifully on the back. I do think the OP would benifit from a deeper seat and a stronger leg but that's not something that happens overnight. I don't think her focus should be in the hands rather in the seat right now. I would probably go back to the basics for a while if it were me, getting her rounded and supple. Moving from her back end and really listening. I would probably do a lot of quiet sessions with minimal "running". I'd work on really getting this horse focused but again, I'm not a speed eventer so my advice could be way off....

Anyway... that's my 2 cents....


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## bubba13

I'll right, my Internet frazzled out due to storms last night, so I didn't get to give nearly the depth of reply to individuals I would have liked (I can see a few of you jumping for joy at my silence right now). I'll go back and fill in as I get time.

To hold some space, however, here's the video I took yesterday. Flexing--laterally, she's soft. Vertically, she dropped her head fairly easily but chomped the bit. I'm willing to cut her a small amount of slack for that since I had just given her a handful of oats prior to bridling (small factor, but she was still munching on those) and now watching the video I see that my hands are pretty uneven since I'm a midget who can't reach over her withers, so the cue is sort of confusing and inconsistent.

The ponying part--I have no idea why she was being a lazy butt yesterday. So not like her. Usually she's trying to drag my pony horse around the pasture, not vice versa. You can still get a hint of her lovely temperament and response to taking orders, though.

Regarding the dun I'm riding: Yeppers, I'm using a tie-down on him. He and the gray are the only two horses I ride with tie-downs on. I tried to wean him off of it and get him to collect in a snaffle, and it was several month battle (I'll spare you the ghastly, gnarly details). In the end, I decided that with his prior riding (14 years of belonging to a roper who cranked his head down, rode him in a giant bit, and ran the snot out of him) and conformation (pretty poor and not conducive to traveling in frame) that we'd both be happier if I just kept the equipment he was used to and let him relax. He's calmed down remarkably since I stopped fidgeting with him. He's got trouble with his leads due to some mild hock/stifle arthritis and poor prior training--we're working on getting the changes nailed down.

YouTube - Ponying


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## myhorsesonador

That video looked good. The only thing is that she gave you her noes and you didnt release. As soon as she gives you her noes you have to release.


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## NdAppy

:roll:


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## riccil0ve

I never thought the OP was being argumentative, just on the defense. You cannot learn or have an open mind if you are defensive. There is no point to start a critique in that state of mind, because you will not be receptive to anything. And that goes for everybody.

The problem with the curb is just that the OP seems to want to ride in contact, which curbs aren't really designed for, nor will it help with the mare's hatred of bits and contact. I ride in a Kimberwick, that is what my mare likes. She is soft and supple and responsive. I have no problem with curbs, obviously. I just don't think this bit is right for this horse, as I think most people are saying.

BSMS, I only said to ride in contact as that is what the OP seems to desire. She certainly doesn't have to be.

Again, I'd like to say I think the OP is a good rider with a quiet body and quiet hands, which is great for this mare. She can use some work strengthening her core, and as Farmpony said, deepening her seat and sitting on her butt more than her pubic bone. She does need to bring her shoulders back. Perching is a terrible habit. =P


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## NdAppy

ricci - I know from my own point of view and experience, that with severe lower back problems, getting deeper in the seat is not always physically comfortable. Getting the hips to rotate, and in my case with scoliosis, is fighting a loosing battle. There are sometime things that you have to compensate for and work around. I know the op has mentioned some major lower back problems in some of her previous posts.


----------



## Northern

bubba, as you've experienced, she can pull against that flat web halter with no consequences except to you , so if you put her in a knotted rope halter, she'll learn to yield to pressure. Yet, I'd get that started with you on the ground with her.


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## Golden Horse

On a positive note all round, she looks 100% sound now, no nodding at all.


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## Zimpatico

Please feel free to "report" my post, but I am going to make a wild assumption here and say that if you pick fights with your horses the way you pick fights with everyone on here, it's no wonder you have a b*tchy mare on your hands. I feel sorry for any horse that has to put up with someone that posesses such a superior, know-it-all, condescending attitude... I have no clue why you continue asking for critiques when you could care less about what anyone has to say, unless they are agreeing 100% with your opinion, beliefs and perception.


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## NdAppy

Zimpatico - I don't see where you think she is picking fights. Others have agreed with me on the sentiment that she is reading and responding to posts.

I personally think everyone has their panties in a knot that she isn't falling down and kissing everyone's feet for giving her advice as well as falling all over herself to implement it. 


She is discussing the pros and cons of each and elaborating on what she has and hasn't done with this specific mare. It seems like a lot of the posters that are "going after" her seem to not be willing to listen to what she has to say and are determined to ram their points of view down her throat.


Everyone needs to take a step back and breathe. There is no one true way to train a horse. Every horse is an individual and that needs to be taken into account _anytime training is discussed, _no matter who or what the subject of training is.


----------



## Golden Horse

Thanks for the offer Zimpatico, I took you up on it and reported your post as rude, it's the only one on this thread that has really made me wince, everyone else has been trying to be civil I think, with greater or lesser degrees of success.

Wild assumptions don't help, and descending into saying I feel sorry for any horse that ends up with you, is just nasty.

I've seen many photo's of the OPs horses over a number of years across many forums, and you know I don't think they have a bad life. They are always in great condition and get veterinary attention when needed. 

I agree that most of the mares issues are probably caused by the rider, same as most of the problems that any horse has, but I do see her responding to everyone's points. She may not be rolling over with gratitude and saying that she's going to adopt any or all of what has been said, but as I said before at least you know it's being read, and let's face it that's all you can hope for on an online forum.


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## .Delete.

Atleast she is discussing and responding to advice. Many people who post on here throw hissy fits, and end up not even responding. She is giving feed back on what she thinks about each persons advice. She has admitted she was wrong and isnt rejecting help. I see no problem with that


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## Zimpatico

I'm sorry guys, but I have ZERO sympathy for anyone who rides a horse the way she has with such a history of tendon and ligament injuries. I have seen nothing but the OP arguing with people who point out things she doesn't like. I could care LESS if I've offended or upset her... Needed to get it off my chest, and I'll shut up now.


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## mswp27

NdAppy said:


> Zimpatico - I don't see where you think she is picking fights. Others have agreed with me on the sentiment that she is reading and responding to posts.


The title of this thread was "Not to create more controversy, but" and that is exactly what she's doing. She's asking for advice, only to prove it wrong if she doesn't agree 110%.


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## Sarahandlola

I have to agree with Zimpatico and mswp27.. Not that the OP is a B*tch but she came in here and asked for advice...Every piece of advice she is given she does not accept and makes an excuse not to accept it...What is the point in asking for advice if you keep refusing it. This thread has no point to it at all.


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## Amlalriiee

I really like the ponying video...LOVE the horse you're riding in it-he's so cute! I know that has nothing to do with the thread, but oh well...at least it's positive! 

(This last video does speak to the fact that her ears will be pinned whether you're on her or not, and it shows you riding on a nice looped rein) Weird how she kinda looks lazy in that video, opposed to the others. She does flex nicely on the ground, do you do that before every ride? If not, maybe doing so a few times would help get that mindset going for both her and yourself, and help get her a little more...compliant? Just an off the wall idea. I try to flex my mare often...she does not do it quite as nicely though


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## MacabreMikolaj

Good grief, this is EXACTLY why I don't post critique videos on here anymore. Because half the people are nothing but a bunch of stick up the arses know-it-alls who pitch a child size temper tantrum when the OP doesn't bow down and acknowledge that they are an inferior and totally incompetent rider. :roll:

Also, I must re-iterate with the above poster, I was DROOLING over that big beautiful dun you were on the entire time. I kept trying to watch your mare and it was like "nope, big booty to watch, can't look away!" Also, I found the dun gave a GREAT insight to your riding abilities which are actually pretty darn good - I think in fighting with your mare so much, she makes you look "worse" because it's SO hard to have any sort of decent equitation when you're battling a horse.

I will NEVER understand how people can get so frustrated because they think they're right and everyone else is wrong. The OP has EXTREMELY politely acknowledged most posts, and completely avoided fights even as people get completely rude and start name calling.

I think it's time to look in a mirror when you're sounding off on someone with nasty curse words and names just because THEY don't happen to think you're the world class trainer YOU do.


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## NdAppy

mswp27 said:


> The title of this thread was "Not to create more controversy, but" and that is exactly what she's doing. She's asking for advice, only to prove it wrong if she doesn't agree 110%.


So anyone that doesn't instantly agree with your (your as a collective here) training advice and immediately implement it, but proceeds to discuss the pros and cons of something is being argumentative and not wanting advice? 

She _knew_ people were going to jump all over her after the other thread. That is how I read the title. She _knew_ you guys were going to pick her apart and try and grind her into the dirt because her views on a situation are different then yours. She stood up for herself and it's ****ing you (collective again) off. _That_ is the heart of the problem. She is reading the advice and responding to it and you (collective again) are getting ****ed because she has a brain and is using it and not just blindly following the advice of an online forum. 

Be happy that she is reading the advice. Be happy that she is comprehending it. Quit trying to run her into the ground for not blindly taking that advice and implementing.


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## bsms

NdAppy said:


> ...She _knew_ people were going to jump all over her after the other thread. That is how I read the title. She _knew_ you guys were going to pick her apart and try and grind her into the dirt because her views on a situation are different then yours...


She was hammered on the previous thread for the way she was riding and how it impacted her horse, and then suggesting it was fun and good training for both of them. I suspect a lot of the passion is left over from that now locked thread. On this thread, she has tended to listen more and excuse less, which is how she will make progress.

She doesn't have to agree with everything, and at least now she seems to be considering things rather than excusing things. I wish her and her horse well, but critiques DO tend to be...critical?


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## Whisper22

The people accusing her of not being accepting of the advice given don't seem to understand the concept of a discussion. She IS being accepting and then POLITELY discussing what she knows about HER horse. You people need to relax.


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## Mike_User

Hi everyone,

In general, an OP who asks for critique doesn't necessarily have to implement all or any of the advice they are offered in order for the advice to be beneficial to them as "food for thought" (seeds that may blossom into action) or, equally importantly, the many other horse owners who read advice offered to an OP and stand to learn or benefit from it themselves.

For the same reasons, an OP explaining their point of view or disagreeing with advice they are offered doesn't make a critique thread illegitimate, either. It makes it a discussion, which is arguably perfectly appropriate on a discussion forum.

What does ruin a thread are repeated posts saying that a thread should be closed, an OP does not deserve critique, or other "meta commentary" that is not discussing the horse or rider but the discussion itself. If you have concerns about a thread or post, please report it to the Horse Forum Team by clicking the exclamation mark icon beneath a poster's avatar in the post you want to report, and we'll be glad to look into it.

In this particular case, as explained, the fact that the OP may not agree with all of the advice she is offered and defends or justifies certain aspects of her riding does not make this discussion problematic. Please ensure that your posts don't either. 

If you plan to make additional contributions to this thread, understand that the OP is under no obligation to accept advice she receives, but that your input adds to the collective knowledge of Horse Forum members and, consequently, the greater horse keeping community, and is therefore of value whether of personal value to the OP or not.

Please do not address this post in your reply so that we can get back to the substantive discussion at hand. If you have questions or comments, please start a thread in the Talk to the Team forum.

Thanks,
Mike


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## UnrealJumper

I don't think the OP is such a bad rider, I think that she needs a trainer to get her and her horses working together a bit better. 

If you've got a trainer they can pick out the things you do wrong, and help you fix them. Everyone makes mistakes while riding, nbd. Trainers are there to help.


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## horsplay

Sorry I am writing after only reading the first page but I just have to say that while snaffle bits have their place my horse hates them. I put a snaffle in his mouth and I can't do a thing with him. On his back, on the ground, on long lines he gapes his mouth open, avoids the bit or just doesn't respond where as I put in the curb that he has been ridden in since he was 4 and he rides beautifully, I can do almost anything with him in a curb, though I have never long lined him in a curb. The bit that is right for a horse is what ever that horse works best in. Granted it shouldn't work becouse of pain or fear of pain but some horses don't work in snaffles, it's not the one bit every horse in the world will love and work perfect in.


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## phoenix

I skimmed the last wow 13 pages of this thread and i watched the video, to me she looks stiff and like shes fighting something, whether it's you, the bit, her possibly sore back.. i don't know. I like your horse, she's cute and definitely likes to go, i wish i could get some of that go for my horse.

I don't know anything about curb bits, or ties downs. like others have said i would change her to a snaffle, i'd actually love to she her ridden in a snaffle so we could compare how she goes. having said that, have you done any suppling exercises with her? i understand she's been off due to an injury (is that right?); if so, my horse was off for ages with a bad back/back hips and he was tense and stiff through his back when i brought him back into riding. he had also lost a lot of muscle definition along his back and did what your mare does, he would go around with his head all up in the air. he was also developing that muscle bulge under his neck.

i found that if i gave him his head and let him go around how ever he wanted he soon got tired of walking/trotting round like a giraffe. I introduced some suppling exercises, both on the ground and in the saddle. on the ground i use carrot stretches and someone on here suggested massaging his back and then applying pressure (scratching his belly) to get him to lift his back. we do the ground exercises 5-6 times a week. in the saddle i use jane savoie's suppling exercises. maybe you could look them up on youtube. i don't know if those exercises can be done in a curb bit, like i said i don't know bits.

while he is only just starting to carry himself properly for small periods of time and use his back, the difference i've noticed from a video i have of him when he was first started back is quite amazing. now even on a very loose rein his head isn't flung up in the air any more. if you really want to bring her head down it'll take time and work. Also, the supping exercises will help her be less tense and can help calm her down if she does get tense and fast.


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## bubba13

Trying to catch back up here--home Internet is still down so it's going to be spotty.



riccil0ve said:


> Why do you bother making these threads if all you're going to do is argue every point made?
> 
> I do like the horse. I really like her, actually. I think this mare has potential for dressage that is being blocked by her rider. I agree with the majority of the critiques. This is mostly rider error.


As others have kindly pointed out, I don't "argue every point made," I simply do my best to further clarify the situation and respond to any inconsistencies or questions. Also, while I know little about dressage, I just can't see this thing doing graceful piaffes, regardless of training:












DubyaS6 said:


> Dumb question:
> 
> Have you ever tried riding her and NOT worrying about her head?
> 
> Remove tiedown, replace Argentine Snaffle with regular snaffle or even french link type snaffle and just ride the horse. Let her do her thing. If she wants to run around, go for the ride without yanking on her head (not implying that you do, just stating dont do it). Stay deep in your seat asking for her to slow, but do NOT put pressure on the bit.
> 
> She will tire out, promise. Its hard to just go for the ride, but eventually she will figure out that you arent going to be in her mouth every time you get on her. You also arent going to be asking her to run around in circles either.
> 
> With the tiedown gone, she will have to balance herself which will be new to her. She will build up these muscles that she hasnt had to use in a while and then eventually she will naturally lower her head herself without you having to ask her.
> 
> Once you can get on her and not have her want to run off, you can then ask her for more forward impulsion and then not have her throw her head immediately up looking to brace on the tiedown or get above the bit.


Unfortunately I can't tire her out right now--fatiqued tendons are weakened and thus in danger of tearing, spelling catastrophe for a horse like her. I did, however, to humor people here, ride her in a snaffle yesterday. Very similar to this one:










No tie-down either. At first things were going quite nicely, and I was riding her around on a relaxed rein as I typically do for easy warm-up. Then she decided she wanted to do her trocanter rack, and I said no, and she said yes, and I said no, sat down, and gave a light pull on the reins, and she did this










and that is how we spent the rest of our ride. Totally lost all flexibility and speed control. I can always get her to stop with a vocal command of "whoa," but I rely on subtle rein cues and half-halts to maintain a constant pace within the gait, in addition to leg and seat cues. As soon as she tested me and figured out that she was stronger, she took full advantage of the situation. I tried to trot and canter her in some relaxed circles to regain control but she stiffened up and dropped her shoulder so badly to the inside that I was afraid she'd slip and fall in the mud.

In the end it was either tear her face off or stay at a walk, so I did a little of each, promising to fix and tune her back up next ride. And remembered why I really do not like snaffle bits for most broke Western horses. 



equiniphile said:


> Excellent advice by Wild_Spot, I sincerely hope you appreciate her taking time out of her day to offer advice....advice that you've proven yourself unwilling of implementing into your training.


Oh yes, perfectly unwilling, which is why I'm still here, responding nicely and civilly to everything everyone suggests.



Spyder said:


> Actually it was a disaster.
> 
> The horse did move sideways but the outside shoulder was bulged into the motion direction, the head was in the air and if she went any faster sideways she may have tripped and fallen.
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't practice it at any gait faster than a walk as clearly it isn't there. I highly doubt that it is "perfect" when it is so imperfect undersaddle.
> 
> 
> No she has not shown this. All I see is is a horse is is running through the aids and if you are spurring her belly it is no wonder she is doing this.
> 
> No you are not contradicting everything, you are simply making excuses.


Not spurring her in the belly. I was explaining why I _don't_ spur her to ask her to round up. Of course her head was in the air. I mentioned that initially. She has always had a high head-set, long before any tension developed. Funny how, though, I move her laterally at a flat gallop whenever running, and not only does she not flip on top of me, she's never had the slightest stumble, either. I don't want her crossing over in a nice sort of side-pass motion. That would be dangerous and counterproductive at a fast speed. I want effective movement so if we're approaching a barrel too tight, I can nudge her over with light rein and leg while she maintains forward momentum and doesn't break stride. And it has worked extremely well, as she's the best horse I know at doing this. Most will brace against the bit, drop the inside shoulder, and turn too soon, hitting a barrel or tripping badly.


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## bubba13

wild_spot said:


> On my phone, so I'll just comment re: mounted games/sporting vs. rodeo barrels for now.
> 
> I guess you got from my post that most/all speed horses here are also quiet enough for kids and quite calm - far from it! Many of the horses I compete against make your mare look like a saint. We regularly swap horses in training here and those horses invariably don't listen to leg, have no brakes, can't bend their body... What I wrote about was the standard I hold my horses to. I don't believe it is fair on a horse to let them live trapped in such an atmosphere of tension/excitement - it would be exhausting!
> 
> The barrels we run are generally much larger patterns, and are on grass rather than sand. You are correct, it makes it a very different event. I wouldn't be so sure the rodeo horses would blow us out of the water, though. Our horses are bred for long days working cattle, fast and furious games of polocrosse, but also to be quiet and calm while doing it. It doesn't make them slower, or less of an athlete. In fact most sporting horses have to run multiple events in one day - a minimum of barrels, bending, flagging, and sometimes up to ten or more events - so fitness and athletic ability is of prime performance!
> 
> A sporting horse and a games pony are usually very different things - only a few successfully cross over, my boy just happened to be one of them. Games ponies are usually smaller, mixed breed ponies who are lightening quick for there size, but are small enough to vault on and puck things up from the ground at a gallop. Sporting horses are usually bigger, ASH, QH or Tb or a mix of those.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know what, I think it is a totally different race. I'm thoroughly convinced that your horses couldn't touch ours in a rodeo arena setting. Our horses run full-out; they're perfect athletes at the sport. But they're used to good, perfectly groomed ground. On your turf, on the grass, I'm not sure ours would know how to stand up. They'd be falling and sliding all over the place. And running on a bigger pattern....I think they'd get so much speed built up that they'd blow the turns. And be huffing and puffing at the end.

It'd be a good race, though, in both scenarios, to see and satisfy curiosity.



bsms said:


> Ummm...no one went to where the OP lives and forced their views on her. During the last few days, she has posted a half dozen videos and asked what people think - so she ought to appreciate those who take the time to do what she asked them to do.
> 
> Many of the OP replies have been along the lines of 'It is just how my mare moves/behaves/acts, and I have to ride her this way' - which may be, for all I know. But if so, why ask other people to take time and type out advice?
> 
> Craig Cameron (Amazon.com: Ride Smart: Improve Your Horsemanship Skills on the Ground and in the Saddle (Western Horseman Books): Craig Cameron: Books) tells the story of working on a ranch, and having the owner ask him to come by and give him a list of reasons why things aren't working the way they ought. He worked on it, and filled several pages. When he met the owner, the owner read the paper, handed it back and replied, "The only thing that ought to be on this paper is your name."
> 
> He then explained that no one can control weather, trucks breaking, illness - but you can control your response and either make things better or worse.
> 
> I had a similar experience in the military...my commander looking me in the eye and telling me he paid me to get the best results possible, not excuses.
> 
> In riding, I have a long established bad habit of leaning forward. I was using a flat jump saddle on some horses that sometimes leaped forward because of...???? So I rode defensively and made excuses, and didn't improve my riding until I took responsibility for how I rode. I wasn't going to change horses, I wasn't up to riding well in that saddle and I was getting worse with time. So what was I willing to do?
> 
> I switched to an Australian style saddle semi-permanently a few months ago, and my confidence in my ability to stay on the horse shot up. I started relaxing in the saddle, stopped trying to hold on with death-grip knees, gave the horses their heads instead of trying to hold them back, and in 6 weeks I've made more progress than in the previous 2 years.
> 
> I still have lots of flaws as a rider, but they won't solve themselves. I am responsible for my riding, and I'm responsible for my horses' behavior.
> 
> Based on watching the videos posted, some in freeze frame, I'd say the biggest problem with this horse is the rider. She needs to make a list of reasons why this horse acts the way it does, and that list ought to have her name on it and nothing else. There are lots of things she cannot control, so she needs to focus on the one thing she CAN control - herself.
> 
> SHE determines what tack is used, where she rides, how she rides and the agenda of each ride. What she is doing isn't working, so TRY something else. No more "Speed 'Racking' Foundation Quarter Horse". Change bits. Change the agenda of each ride - focus on slow. The horse can't run barrels now anyways, so take the time to teach it something else. Teaching it to walk won't ruin it for barrel racing. Change posture. Build trust. Set one or two goals to work on, and work on those goals consistently. Focus on what you control, not on what you cannot change. Don't even try to lower her head - just focus on getting her to toss it less. Pick a couple of small steps, and take them. Accept that it may be months or even years before the horse is ready to ride barrels again. Maybe never, if barrel racing encourages her to move like that.
> 
> Accept responsibility for the horse's behavior, or accept that it won't change.


Of course the rider is a HUGE factor, and of course the rider is ultimately responsible for the horse's future progress. But you can't negate the influences of past issues and experiences. That's like saying there's no such thing as a soured problem horse with bad habits. Under that philosophy, the worst horse in the world should be cured the first time a good rider sat on his back. Not true. All things take time, and outside influences can absolutely have a lasting effect.



kevinshorses said:


> I'm going to try one more time for the OP. In a previous post the OP stated that she wasn't good at "dressage-y things". Those dressage-y things are fundementals in any kind of horsemanship. They are the skills that are put together to accomplish what the rider is asking for. If you can't get a horse to back up soft and light or walk with the correct head set and impulsion then you should work on those things rather than trotting and loping in circles and wondering why your horse isn't changing. I agree that the horse isn't green. The horse is spoiled and on the fast track to ruined. It's not because the OP is mean or stupid, it's just a matter of putting first steps first. You don't build a house starting with the roof.


Good points, and good points to just ride the horse, but consider our/my 21st century lifestyle. My exercise routine does consist of a lot of trotting/loping circles, yeah. In an ideal world, of course you're right. But while you see open land, I don't have access to much of that. I've got two 20-acre fields, a 10-acre field, and a quarter mile stretch of gravel road at my disposal, and most of that is a muddy, unsafe mess right now. Trails are an occasional luxury, as are big pastures. Not to mention time to just _ride_, since I do have a work/school/chore/homework/other-horse-riding/weather-and-daylight-dependent schedule. Do I necessarily want a quick fix? No. But realistically, that's what I've got to work with. I get to ride in 30-45 minute spurts. I'll spend about half of that walking the perimeter of the pastures, a few minutes trotting or loping that area, and the rest trying to get her in shape by using the circles. I don't know how else to accomplish my goal...

By dressagey time things, I didn't mean the fundamentals of collection and frame. I meant more along the lines of the complicated moves whose names I do not know, or how to get a truly impressive extended yet collected trot, and so on.

And I vehemently resent the notion that this horse is on a fast track to being ruined. If anything, given her and my past, she's on the long and arduous road to salvation.


----------



## equinesalways

Bits. Prior to being a dressage rider, I was a barrel racer. I know some things about reining too from a dear friend who was a World Champion and a true horseman. I also have incorporated some non-Parelli type NH into my training. All your modern day "western" trainers, cowboys, reiners, NH gurus, and barrel racers call the following bits stupid bits:

Tom Thumbs
Kimberwickes
Pelhams (used with one rein)

The bit shown as an "Argentine Snaffle" is just another Tom Thumb just as many of our knowledgeable members have pointed out already. It's shaped slightly different, but it's action is the same and causing the horse to distrust contact. In the video, I see an uncomfortable horse trying to do the right thing. I see a rider with soft hands, but poor timing and technique.

More on bits. Barrel racers do not use the above mentioned "stupid bits". They use combinations and gags and they use them to turn. When they are going straight, the hands go forward. They open in the inside hand to turn and then they give. A lot of their bits are ugly and severe, but the horses are never expected to take a contact with them.

I happened to check out the barrel patterns on the OPs youtube page. The horse is running out of control, doesn't stop and sit for the barrels and is getting hauled around by her face around the pattern. There is a lack of proper training on this horse and it is a miracle she hasn't crashed yet. That bit and tie down combination forces the horse to throw her head up for every barrel. When the tie down engages, it slams her down on her front end and the hind end goes flying out behind which is the opposite you want. She actually looses her balance coming into the barrels instead of sitting and gathering more balance to make the turn.

This rider certainly has some natural balance and is very deliberate in the way she rides, but needs more formal training to harness her natural skills. She also needs help outfitting her horse in appropriate tack for the job she is to do.

And for those who don't know, even barrel horses do flat work! Actually, lots of flat work. They are rarely allowed to full out gallop the pattern and care is taken to never drill the pattern. They are often schooled in a simple snaffle at home and the big bridle isn't brought out until shows or days the horse is allowed to gallop the pattern. In dressage, we don't teach a horse dressage by piaffing all day, we develop a horse systematically. The same goes for a barrel horse. You don't run the pattern to make the pattern better, you do flat work and basics to make the pattern better.

Lateral suppleness. When we talk about moving away from the leg, it means the horse is accepting of the rider's aids and crosses over with both front and hind legs, at least in the leg yield that is. What I saw in the video was a horse being pulled off balance and falling out over the shoulder while being kicked over. Pulling a horse off balance is upsetting to a horse and the rider should always try to influence the horse in a positive way. The focus shouldn't be on the face, but rather on getting a response from the seat and leg.

Standing flexions. The horse flexes well in the snaffle on the video, but the person with the reins is not rewarding the horse by giving. When the horse feels soft and flexes to your hand, you give back as a reward. 

The horse needs to know when it's doing the right thing and that is best done simply by removing the pressure. This is not an english or western "thing"; It's not a polo, barrel racing, western pleasure, dressage, reining, cutting, hunter, or jumper thing. It's a HORSE thing. You ask. They answer. You stop asking. The assumption from the horse is that they answered correctly. They understand it and will repeat the behavior that is rewarded when you cease to ask it for something. If you never tell the horse that it's done the right thing, it acts like the horse in these videos.

OP, I hope that some day, you look back at these videos you have posted for critique and understand why it is you are getting the negative reaction from the general horse-populace here. Please take your natural talents and get a professional to guide and teach you how to be a true horseman. I believe with some guidance, you could really be a great rider! Don't go it on your own, even the best professionals have a support crew and their teachers and mentors. Good luck and best wishes to you!


----------



## myhorsesonador

equinesalways said:


> Bits. Prior to being a dressage rider, I was a barrel racer. I know some things about reining too from a dear friend who was a World Champion and a true horseman. I also have incorporated some non-Parelli type NH into my training. All your modern day "western" trainers, cowboys, reiners, NH gurus, and barrel racers call the following bits stupid bits:
> 
> Tom Thumbs
> Kimberwickes
> Pelhams (used with one rein)
> 
> The bit shown as an "Argentine Snaffle" is just another Tom Thumb just as many of our knowledgeable members have pointed out already. It's shaped slightly different, but it's action is the same and causing the horse to distrust contact. In the video, I see an uncomfortable horse trying to do the right thing. I see a rider with soft hands, but poor timing and technique.
> 
> More on bits. Barrel racers do not use the above mentioned "stupid bits". They use combinations and gags and they use them to turn. When they are going straight, the hands go forward. They open in the inside hand to turn and then they give. A lot of their bits are ugly and severe, but the horses are never expected to take a contact with them.
> 
> I happened to check out the barrel patterns on the OPs youtube page. The horse is running out of control, doesn't stop and sit for the barrels and is getting hauled around by her face around the pattern. There is a lack of proper training on this horse and it is a miracle she hasn't crashed yet. That bit and tie down combination forces the horse to throw her head up for every barrel. When the tie down engages, it slams her down on her front end and the hind end goes flying out behind which is the opposite you want. She actually looses her balance coming into the barrels instead of sitting and gathering more balance to make the turn.
> 
> This rider certainly has some natural balance and is very deliberate in the way she rides, but needs more formal training to harness her natural skills. She also needs help outfitting her horse in appropriate tack for the job she is to do.
> 
> And for those who don't know, even barrel horses do flat work! Actually, lots of flat work. They are rarely allowed to full out gallop the pattern and care is taken to never drill the pattern. They are often schooled in a simple snaffle at home and the big bridle isn't brought out until shows or days the horse is allowed to gallop the pattern. In dressage, we don't teach a horse dressage by piaffing all day, we develop a horse systematically. The same goes for a barrel horse. You don't run the pattern to make the pattern better, you do flat work and basics to make the pattern better.
> 
> Lateral suppleness. When we talk about moving away from the leg, it means the horse is accepting of the rider's aids and crosses over with both front and hind legs, at least in the leg yield that is. What I saw in the video was a horse being pulled off balance and falling out over the shoulder while being kicked over. Pulling a horse off balance is upsetting to a horse and the rider should always try to influence the horse in a positive way. The focus shouldn't be on the face, but rather on getting a response from the seat and leg.
> 
> Standing flexions. The horse flexes well in the snaffle on the video, but the person with the reins is not rewarding the horse by giving. When the horse feels soft and flexes to your hand, you give back as a reward.
> 
> The horse needs to know when it's doing the right thing and that is best done simply by removing the pressure. This is not an english or western "thing"; It's not a polo, barrel racing, western pleasure, dressage, reining, cutting, hunter, or jumper thing. It's a HORSE thing. You ask. They answer. You stop asking. The assumption from the horse is that they answered correctly. They understand it and will repeat the behavior that is rewarded when you cease to ask it for something. If you never tell the horse that it's done the right thing, it acts like the horse in these videos.
> 
> OP, I hope that some day, you look back at these videos you have posted for critique and understand why it is you are getting the negative reaction from the general horse-populace here. Please take your natural talents and get a professional to guide and teach you how to be a true horseman. I believe with some guidance, you could really be a great rider! Don't go it on your own, even the best professionals have a support crew and their teachers and mentors. Good luck and best wishes to you!


That has to be the best post ever! If the op could only see one post it should be this one!


----------



## Spyder

bubba13 said:


> Funny how, though, I move her laterally at a flat gallop whenever running, and not only does she not flip on top of me, she's never had the slightest stumble, either. .


This is moving sideways at speed.

No bracing and no head in the air no bulging shoulder and also fully attentive to the rider's aids.


----------



## horsplay

I will probably unsubscribe to this thread because there is just to much.... I don't even know the word but you all know the feeling. But I do have to say that that though I find bull fighting to be cruel to both horse and bull that horse is AMAZING! My Opinion is that every one here needs to take a chill pill including my self. everyone has an opinion, and is entitled to it. IT doesn't mean your right and that there is no other way.


----------



## tinyliny

That is one of my favorite Youtube videos. The rider is out of this world skilled and the horse, well, is an amazing athlete.
Please note that he is riding in a pretty strong shanked curb.


----------



## offinthedistance

Spyder, much as I loathe animal cruelty such as this, that horse sure can move! What an amazing display of riding.
My pony does much the same thing when the cat runs into the paddock, though not as graceful I may add.


----------



## Arksly

equinesalways said:


> Bits. Prior to being a dressage rider, I was a barrel racer. I know some things about reining too from a dear friend who was a World Champion and a true horseman. I also have incorporated some non-Parelli type NH into my training. All your modern day "western" trainers, cowboys, reiners, NH gurus, and barrel racers call the following bits stupid bits:
> 
> Tom Thumbs
> Kimberwickes
> Pelhams (used with one rein)
> 
> The bit shown as an "Argentine Snaffle" is just another Tom Thumb just as many of our knowledgeable members have pointed out already. It's shaped slightly different, but it's action is the same and causing the horse to distrust contact. In the video, I see an uncomfortable horse trying to do the right thing. I see a rider with soft hands, but poor timing and technique.
> 
> More on bits. Barrel racers do not use the above mentioned "stupid bits". They use combinations and gags and they use them to turn. When they are going straight, the hands go forward. They open in the inside hand to turn and then they give. A lot of their bits are ugly and severe, but the horses are never expected to take a contact with them.
> 
> I happened to check out the barrel patterns on the OPs youtube page. The horse is running out of control, doesn't stop and sit for the barrels and is getting hauled around by her face around the pattern. There is a lack of proper training on this horse and it is a miracle she hasn't crashed yet. That bit and tie down combination forces the horse to throw her head up for every barrel. When the tie down engages, it slams her down on her front end and the hind end goes flying out behind which is the opposite you want. She actually looses her balance coming into the barrels instead of sitting and gathering more balance to make the turn.
> 
> This rider certainly has some natural balance and is very deliberate in the way she rides, but needs more formal training to harness her natural skills. She also needs help outfitting her horse in appropriate tack for the job she is to do.
> 
> And for those who don't know, even barrel horses do flat work! Actually, lots of flat work. They are rarely allowed to full out gallop the pattern and care is taken to never drill the pattern. They are often schooled in a simple snaffle at home and the big bridle isn't brought out until shows or days the horse is allowed to gallop the pattern. In dressage, we don't teach a horse dressage by piaffing all day, we develop a horse systematically. The same goes for a barrel horse. You don't run the pattern to make the pattern better, you do flat work and basics to make the pattern better.
> 
> Lateral suppleness. When we talk about moving away from the leg, it means the horse is accepting of the rider's aids and crosses over with both front and hind legs, at least in the leg yield that is. What I saw in the video was a horse being pulled off balance and falling out over the shoulder while being kicked over. Pulling a horse off balance is upsetting to a horse and the rider should always try to influence the horse in a positive way. The focus shouldn't be on the face, but rather on getting a response from the seat and leg.
> 
> Standing flexions. The horse flexes well in the snaffle on the video, but the person with the reins is not rewarding the horse by giving. When the horse feels soft and flexes to your hand, you give back as a reward.
> 
> The horse needs to know when it's doing the right thing and that is best done simply by removing the pressure. This is not an english or western "thing"; It's not a polo, barrel racing, western pleasure, dressage, reining, cutting, hunter, or jumper thing. It's a HORSE thing. You ask. They answer. You stop asking. The assumption from the horse is that they answered correctly. They understand it and will repeat the behavior that is rewarded when you cease to ask it for something. If you never tell the horse that it's done the right thing, it acts like the horse in these videos.
> 
> OP, I hope that some day, you look back at these videos you have posted for critique and understand why it is you are getting the negative reaction from the general horse-populace here. Please take your natural talents and get a professional to guide and teach you how to be a true horseman. I believe with some guidance, you could really be a great rider! Don't go it on your own, even the best professionals have a support crew and their teachers and mentors. Good luck and best wishes to you!


Wonderful post!


----------



## CanyonCowboy

There is one statement from the OP that I think tells a great deal about what the horse is saying here (and I think it substantiates what people are saying about problems with the curb bit that is being used). Bubba states in the post of 2/26 at 9:46PM, "I've got a long-shank mechanical hackamore with a flat leather nose, so similar concept. She's terrified of the swinging action of the shanks. The one time I rode her in it I didn't even have to pull back hard--the first time those shanks swung, she threw her head up and got about ready to bolt. I made a beeline back to the tackroom and haven't tried again since." 

Seems to me this mare has had very bad experiences with shanked bits and is reacting to the shanked bit EVEN IF THERE ISN'T A BIT IN HER MOUTH!


----------



## Sahara

And the horse blows through/doesn't respect a snaffle.....so what do you propose?

Do it like Charmayne James and barrel race bridleless!:mrgreen:


----------



## bsms

Sahara said:


> And the horse blows through/doesn't respect a snaffle.....so what do you propose?...


Is it possible to do a pulley stop when she gets spun up? My mare will respond to that even without a bit. When she starts to lose it, I'll take her to a complete stop and start over.

And I'll admit that there are times she just gets too spun up for productive training. Then I just walk her. If the training is turning negative, it is best to stop the training.

I don't see any quick answers for this horse. There is a lot to overcome, and that will take a lot of time...but time working the basics. Until that is solid, there is no where to go.


----------



## Arksly

Sahara said:


> And the horse blows through/doesn't respect a snaffle.....so what do you propose?
> 
> Do it like Charmayne James and barrel race bridleless!:mrgreen:


 
The OP could always try a sidepull, or something of the sorts. I'm not a big fan of them, but sometimes you have to make exceptions.


----------



## kevinshorses

Sahara said:


> And the horse blows through/doesn't respect a snaffle.....so what do you propose?
> 
> Do it like Charmayne James and barrel race bridleless!:mrgreen:


Charmayne James can barrel race bridleless because she knows how to train a horse properly. She has put the proper foundation on her horses so that they respond to her seat and legs and do not rely on the bit for something that somewhat resembles control but doesn't get there.


----------



## Tymer

bubba13 said:


> I don't know how else to accomplish my goal...


There you go. You need to learn. Look at what everyone has said-you've gotten some of the most stellar advice from some of the most intelligent people on this forum. I think that you should literally take notes on everything (everything that's positive) and make that your training regiment. So far it looks like you need to learn on well timed release and take it sloooow. Trotting around in circles isn't doing much, if anything.

Trust me, I've been in your shoes almost exactly. You've been doing the same thing forever, and as far as you know it's pretty much the right thing. You make a thread asking for something random but suddenly you get attacked for all sorts of different things that have little if anything to do with the original topic (Over a year ago I asked about breastplates, and got attacked about my trainer being, in short, evil. Today I've accepted that she is pretty awful but I'm stuck with her.) I fought and fought and fought with them. I refused to believe that anything was wrong. Hey, my horse seemed pretty happy! None of the barn's horses seemed angry or unwilling either! And most of all, everyone at the barn seemed to think we were doing the right thing. But after a bout of denial induced depression and a lot of investigation on the forums, I concluded that the public was right and I *gasp* was wrong.

Yes, what you're doing now is working. But wouldn't you want it to work just a little bit better? Maybe even a lot better? Unfortunately, you can't go much farther than where you are now without making some major changes. Maybe it's the bit, maybe you have to start from square one, or maybe the horse just learned that what she's doing now is correct. I honestly can't tell you, I'm not all that experienced especially compared to the others who have replied to both threads. We get that the horse is not doing as awful as some people are making it seem. I wish for you not to just read everyone's advice but to actually use some of it. I understand that its difficult to say "Alright, you guys are right, I'm wrong, I need to change. How do I do that?" In fact, those are probably THE most difficult words to say ever. I believe that once you accept it and say them, your life and your horse's life will begin to become much, much better.


----------



## Equilove

In my opinion, you should teach her how to properly respond to a softer bit than cover up her problem (running through the contact) with a more severe bit. That head up in the air is evasion... maybe a running martingale with a snaffle, or something? She just seems ready to go. I don't think this is rider error though. She isn't pulling excessively... I mean, what do you want her to do, drop the reins? You have to be reasonable and expect her to have SOME contact on a horse whose single thought is "run run run". It's a BARREL horse, haha. I think her contact is appropriate.


----------



## bubba13

trailhorserider said:


> I didn't read through all 8 pages of responses, so I'm not sure what other people have said, but here's my take on the horse.
> 
> She hates, hates, hates her bit! She just can't take contact on it at all without fussing and fighting.
> 
> One of my Arabians taught me years ago, that when the horse tosses it's head, you actually need a milder bit, not a stronger one. :wink:
> 
> I would personally try something like one of these:
> 
> Myler low port comfort snaffle (semi-solid ported mouthpiece, like a curb without all the leverage!)
> 
> Western Bits - Myler Western Dee Low Port Comfort Snaffle (MB 04)
> 
> "C" Ported curb bit (what I like about this one is the short shanks- it is hard to find mild curbs with short shanks)
> 
> Medium Port C Bit: Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com
> 
> And don't use the tie down. I actually think this horse is very patient and forgiving to put up with a bit and/or mouth contact that she hates so much. Just the fact that she canters and trots nicely without bucking you off to me means she is a patient, good horse. She just can't stand the bit/tie down combination on her right now. Maybe instead of constant contact, try a gentle tug and release to slow her down and give her slack rein as much as you can. Like I said, I don't know if it's contact in general she hates, or just what she is being ridden in, but it's not working.
> 
> Maybe you see a fussy horse. I see a very patient horse that hates it's biting arrangement.
> 
> I actually do like argentine snaffles, they are my favorite go-to bit, but this bit with this horse is just not working!
> 
> My Foxtrotter mare hates anything with a broken mouthpiece, and the two above bits are what I ride her in and she does great it them. Anything with a broken mouthpiece and she gapes and fusses. Maybe your horse would like a more solid mouthpiece with lighter contact like my mare does.


Since your reply I've explained what happened on my subsequent snaffle ride. I'm still catching up with this thread, front-to-back. I may switch bits yet, but not to a snaffle. She does not appreciate the direct-pull action and is much more relaxed in the curb.

I don't generally ride on that much contact, though. I was making a point for the video: My horse actually can respond to light rein pressure to lower her head and move in some sort of frame, though of course it's not a great one. More often I let her carry her head wherever she is comfortable, so long as he's not actually doing a giraffe impression. At a walk I'll alternate between giving her complete slack and asking her to round up.

I understand people's beef with the tie-down, but it really is adjusted quite loosely, and I honestly don't think it's having any effect on her. It's just there for a reminder in the rare event that she does decide to throw her head way up in the air.

I know it's hard to see all of this from a short video. Do you really think she's fussing that badly with the bit, though? I see (and felt) her pulling on me occasionally in an effort to go faster, but I certainly didn't feel her fighting the bridle excessively. I know she's tense, but there's no gaping, no chewing the bit, nothing like that. Perhaps I'm missing something?



kevinshorses said:


> Trailhorserider: I REALLY don't think the problem is in the horses mouth. There have been too many steps skipped. All those dressage-y things that the OP doesn't think are critical have combined to create a mess. The OP seems to be looking for a quick fix and as most of us know there is no such thing.


I already partially addressed this in a previous post. As for skipping steps, I implore you to understand--I did not. I gave this horse the best foundation I could, taking the time required, working in a snaffle for a long time, starting from the ground, focusing on leads, stops, lateral movement, flexion, collection, neck-reining, and so on. It really is possible for a horse to develop vices despite being started correctly, especially when placed in a high-pressure job and then influenced by some "questionable" (to put it lightly) training and tack choices as dictated by "professionals." Did you read the novella of her history?



Hukassa said:


> To my eye, your hands are much more forgiving than than the first video you posted, and your riding is much better. You ride like you know this mare like the back of your, like you know all the tricks she'll pull, all of her quirks and such. Is their anything wrong with this? No, of course not, but their is always room for improvement. She looks very stiff, and strongly agree with you on getting her back checked for soreness and such.


Thank you for noticing how tuned in we are. I think that is a point that many people are missing; as the horse's sole rider, I know her far better than anyone here could. Generalizations and theories of horsemanship philosophy are great, naturally, but they don't always perfectly apply to every specific situation. Of course there is _plenty_ of room for improvement. It's a lifelong process. Our individual stiffnesses play off each other. 

I am going to have the vet take a look at her back at vaccination time here shortly, and I've been looking around to see if I can't find a better-fitting saddle. Though I really have no reason to suspect she has back pain. And this is directed not personally at you, but for everyone suggesting she's in pain. Throughout her whole lameness saga, I've had the best vets and farriers on her case. They say she's sound. I don't know what more I could do.

Pain is always a possibility, it's true. I've done everything I can for her legs--they're in the best working order vets and farriers can provide. Her back may have issues, and I'll address them if they surface, though at prior lameness evaluations the vets have never noticed a problem. But beyond that, she may have ovarian problems. That's a possibility. But more importantly, how do you find out? Do I have her scoped for ulcers, too? Do I haul her out of state to the best chiropractor, the best masseuse? Do I take her to Rood and Riddle for the absolute best full-body work-up? Another MRI, this time of her back? CT scan? Thermography?

There's only so much we can do, and we all draw the line at a different point. Sure, I could spend, what, $10,000, at least, on possibly unnecessary diagnostics, just for peace of mind? And then what? How much more on treatment for these problems that before I never knew existed? I've already spent a small fortune on her, another big chunk on my retired navicular horse, and yet another substantial chunk on my other mare, all trying to keep them as comfortable as I can. I'm not made of money. No one is.

My back hurts, too. Granted, I'm a human and fully in control of my own choices, but at this point, rather than pursuing expensive treatment, I've decided to live with it. My quality of life is still high; I'm still mobile, and were I an athlete who loved my job, I'd be able to suck it up and compete. In an ideal world we'd all feel great. We don't. We learn to live with minor aches and pains, humans and animals alike.

I don't think that Bones is hurting (and don't have substantial reason to suspect that she is) but I don't know for an absolute fact that she is not. I do the best I can for her, and for all the animals in my care. I think most of us do....


----------



## bubba13

sarahver said:


> What an interesting story. I actually read all eight pages and found it all to be intriguing. Bubba, I never read your other threads (prob gonna go look em up now though he he) but am gonna comment here.
> 
> For what it is worth, here is my $0.02.
> 
> You have a nice, solid, athletic mare. I know nothing of barrel racing, you can count me in with the English folk. I do however know a thing or two about horse training. The tie down is only masking an underlying issue. Since it is masking the issue somewhat, sure you are seeing that some of the adverse behavior is being alleviated. Don't be mistaken, it is NOT being cured.
> 
> I understand your choice to ride in a curb bit however, given the above information, I think your horse needs a tune up in a snaffle first. She has had some time off, been interrupted by injury and understandably, is a little fresh. All horses need a refresher course after a spell.
> 
> I think she just needs a tune up.
> 
> Do what you want, she's your horse. Let me just say this: If she was my horse I would put her back in a snaffle, take the tie down off and ride and ride and ride until she was _relaxed_ and _responsive_ again.
> 
> Perhaps you could do this for a few months, then try the curb again.


She is *fairly* relaxed and responsive in the curb. Far less so in the snaffle. For the rest of your post, you said much the same thing as trailhorserider, so I'll refer you to my response to her.

By tune up, I'm assuming you mean back to basics riding, on trails or in the arena? Believe it or not, I do a lot of that slow stuff, working on seat and leg cues, stopping, backing, flexion, and so on. Unless you mean something else?



kitten_Val said:


> I didn't quite understand from your post, so let me ask... Do you work with the trainer or trying to bring her up yourself? I have no experience with barrel racing (and don't think I ever will as I have no interest :wink: ), but I believe any horse (unless it's a total mental wreck) can be calmed down and re-trained (if needed) with the good trainer. If you are really stuck I'd just suggest to look for one (and it's not always that easy). Advices on Internet are great, but the live trainer is always much more beneficial.


You're absolutely correct about the value of Internet advice versus in-the-flesh experience. :wink:

I was working with a professional trainer when I started Bones on barrels (I did all of her initial riding training myself). This world-champion trainer caused a lot of the horse's issues through her bad advice and attempts to control her through harsher and harsher equipment. When I quite going to the trainer and went back to coaching myself, not only did my barrel times improve drastically, but my horse became much calmer, relaxed, and responsive. There are absolutely no barrel racing trainers I trust in this area (the two who are actually good with horses are bat**** crazy on a personal level, and both are still quite harsh in their methods, though they have good results).

Actually, there are no Western trainers in this area that I trust at all. I know most of them too well; I know what goes on behind the scenes. Quite frankly I ride better than half of them--they've just got their clients duped. English trainers I know less about, but I'd feel rather silly at a jumping barn....

Here's the ghastly thing that will make people scream in horror: One of the more respected and experienced English trainers has hired me to break, ride, and tune up her horses. I've worked for her for several years as her only trainer; she watches me ride, complains about how stiff I am, and marvels at my results with the horses. I've also broke and trained for one of the best (and meanest) Western trainers in this area. In several circles, I am the person people come to with problems--gate/barn/buddy sour horses, trouble with turns, stiffness, stubborness, etc. I frequently get complimented by the professional trainers in the area on my riding and training, and several have actually come to me to swap stories and ask for my advice on a problem. And this isn't a podunk, ******* area, either. There are some considerably good horsemen around.


----------



## bubba13

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I just read all 9 pages, and I learned a lot!
> 
> Kudos to the OP - regardless of anyone's views, she's handled being ganged up on remarkably well and seems to have read everyone's advice and thought it over. I've been in this EXACT position before, where people are giving you advice and swear they know that horse better then you do based on a few videos and any explanation you try to give is met as resistance - often it's NOT resistance, it's from knowing this animal inside out, trying various things and knowing what doesn't work.
> 
> This sounds like my mare - put her in a saffle and good luck. She hates bits, she hates contact. She rides decent on a loose rein in the arena, but you hit the trail and she wants to run - I tried a tom thumb which she loves when she's not fighting me, but makes me feel like a COW when I'm hauling on her. Slapped a mechanical hack on her - fleece noseband, short shanked, chain curb strap. This worked fairly decent for quite some time - you could have a steady pressure without ruining her mouth when she was going crazy. A couple years ago that stopped working - she'd jig and prance until she finally BLEW by exploding violently into the air and bolting. The only way to make her calm down was to circle her endlessly.
> 
> It's been a series of leg injuries interrupting my progress, but I've discovered my new best friend - my Nurtural bitless bridle. My Arab absolutely DETESTS bits, always has - she'll lean into them like crazy, and plays with them constantly (she was just floated this past spring, zero change). The hack I liked, but the chain was to much and making her do her Arab "smile" anytime we fought with each other and I couldn't straight rein in it.
> 
> I'm ADORING my bitless bridle which is the best of every world - Zierra is happy, she's thinking instead of fighting, I can ride her on a loose rein OR with a contact and I have superb direct rein capabilities that deliver total understanding. Our last two trail rides have gone brilliant - walking nicely, and when she gets excited I can gently coax her back down. I've taken her tie downs and martingales off.
> 
> Best of luck!


Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from. As for bitless bridles, I like them and think they have their place, but not on this mare. She's pretty resistant to anything resembling a sidepull, although she does ride fairly well in a halter. As I said previously, she does do well in a Little S hackamore, but I don't like the abrasive rope nosebands and would generally prefer to use a bit if the horse accepts it. I think I have address other parts of your posts in greater detail elsewhere, so for the sake of everyone reading, I won't repeat myself.



ShezaCharmer said:


> I agree with many of the others on here when they say this horse needs her basics before worrying about anything else. The OP looks like a nice decent rider but is riding in the wrong kinda bit. As MM said I would try a bitless bridle because I have a feeling this mare might actually detest bits or if she doesn't now will soon.
> She looks like a nice mare otherwise and with a little retraining she could be a great all-around horse! I see dressage, hunter, barrels, and everyything else bundled up into her.


It's not bits she detests so much as authority. Surely everyone knows the alpha mare type? She respects and responds to me because she knows she has to, but she also lets me know just how horribly mean I am by making her actually, like, DO stuff. Poor thing. 



riccil0ve said:


> You know, MM, if that were the case, I could accept that. But that is not the feel I get from the OP. She started out defensive in the first post. It is one thing to say that your horse does not like apples. It is another to say that your horse simply doesn't need the basics or any real foundation, so all advice pertaining to that is moot.


Never said that. Getting sick of the psychiatric evaluation, though.



MagicDestiny said:


> What are you looking to get out of this thread? What are you looking to fix on your mare? Are you looking to fix her if she's already a good barrel horse which what you predominately use her for? To me in the video, she looks to be stiff and tense which is what others have been saying as well. But, if she's been off work with an injury, she's out of shape and this is to be expected. If she were my horse, I'd put her in a milder snaffle and work on bending and suppling, to get her working all her muscles and gaining strength again. Lot's of circles and serpentines to get her loosened up and having her body following her head and getting her loosened up again. She just looks really stiff through the shoulders and neck area, thus she keeps her head up and hollows her back. Also, encouraging her to drop her head and walk long and low will help strengthen her back and get her engaging her hindquarters. I think part of her head carriage is conformation, but part of it is the way her muscles are developed and it's out of habit as well. The suppling and bending exercises will also make her more able to turn tight corners for barrels and stuff too. I am by no means an expert, but this is just what I am seeing with what you've shown. Anyway, I hope you get the advice or critique you're looking for!


Actually, your advice is exactly what I've been trying to follow, minus the bit choice part, and somewhat limited by the vet's allowance of what she can do. But other than that, your protocol is mine. Though others have been vehemently denying the value of what you've posted.



riccil0ve said:


> Okay, I'm going to give this a real shot.
> 
> The first video in the other thread is atrocious. Really. From the video on this thread, I don't think you are a bad rider, but you clearly had a bad moment in that last video. The mare was strung out and clearly unhappy. I don't think it was "good exercise," especially coming off an injury that held her up for a year. Trot work is good exercise. A steady trot, not that. She was bracing against your hands, showing that your rein aids are totally moot.
> 
> This video, she shows her true potential. It would be a **** shame to not let her reach that potential because you are too proud. Lose the tie-down, and put her in a D-ring or eggbutt French link, and as Kevin said, just ride her. You're theory was that she can fight herself with the tie-down, but all it does is give her something to brace against. She cannot, I repeat, CANNOT brace against that which isn't there. Sometimes, horses just get stuck.
> 
> Keep her at a walk. When you can get her soft and relaxed at the walk, start trotting again. A natural head carriage is fine, she doesn't need to be fully round and arched like a dressage master. But comfortable. Keep off her face. When she lifts her nose up at the walk, inch your reins shorter and bring your hands slowly upward. When she drops, BIG praise.
> 
> Get her listening to your seat. While walking, deep breath in, and on your exhale, tighten your tummy muscles, squeeze the reins, and halt your seat. Most horses will hesitate. Praise. Rinse, lather, repeat. Find her zen, she has one, and make sure you keep your cool. While posting her trot, post small, use your muscles and only bring your bum an inch or two out of the saddle. Ask her to come to you. Create the tempo and invite her to join you. It will be uncomfortable for you two to be on a different rhythm, and with encouragement, she will ease up. And remember, do not let her brace on your hands! You need to "bump" more than keep a steady pressure. Try some half halts, inside leg, outside rein, and tummy muscles. You really want her to halfway halt.
> 
> If you want to encourage her to accept the contact, keep a slight feel of her mouth, and slowly increase the contact in one rein for a few strides. Go back to "neutral," and bring up the contact in the other rein. This is not to be confused with see-sawing. There should be a point of neutral between each rein.
> 
> Lastly, be sure to master a gait before you move up to the next. Stay at the walk until she's got it. Same at the trot. Asking her to trot or canter is just going to exacerbate the problem. I don't know why the majority of people insist they mist canter with every ride. I only canter my mare when I know I'm going to get a good canter. I know I'll get a good canter because her trot work is rhythmical and supple. Why go from a strung out and stiff trot to a strung out and stiff canter? It's just asking for a fight. Set this horse up for success.
> 
> You said you are only willing to accept "your share" of a blame. The truth is, we really are all the problem. It is our job to work with the horse. What you are doing doesn't work for her. Fine. Change what you are doing. Don't expect her to conform to you, because it will be a losing battle.


I think I've addressed all of this in previous posts, but wanted to give you a nod to let you know I've read it in its entirety.


----------



## bubba13

Alwaysbehind said:


> Exactly.
> I was reading through the locked thread and I was shocked when the OP posted that since her horse is for speed events there was no reason to work on slow gaits, etc.


Never, ever said that without immediately clarifying what I meant, horrified and people's interpretations. Don't believe it for a minute.



farmpony84 said:


> I've read through all of the critiques and I first want to ask, where is the OP being argumentative? To me it appears she is responding to comments/advice being giving with an explanation on her view. I've always felt that it is hard to judge a person or a horse from a mere video, even from a few videos.
> 
> I've noticed alot of argument on the bit. I'm on the fence with that one. I have always felt that a bit is only as harsh as the riders hands. This rider does not have harsh hands, they are actually pretty quiet. She's not jerking or pulling. This mare could actually find a happy place with her contact if she weren't so bent on avoiding the bit all together.
> 
> It sounds to me that this mare has been off for some time with an injury which means she is going to be unbalanced, rusty, and go-ey. What her training level is, I don't know. I am not a barrel racer so I don't know what training for that sort of sport entails. I really liked Kevins advice, which was... just ride the horse. Miles and miles of riding and walking, let her find her mind again. I don't think the horse is in danger of having her mouth ripped wide open or the rider is smacking her unmercifully on the back. I do think the OP would benifit from a deeper seat and a stronger leg but that's not something that happens overnight. I don't think her focus should be in the hands rather in the seat right now. I would probably go back to the basics for a while if it were me, getting her rounded and supple. Moving from her back end and really listening. I would probably do a lot of quiet sessions with minimal "running". I'd work on really getting this horse focused but again, I'm not a speed eventer so my advice could be way off....
> 
> Anyway... that's my 2 cents....


No, it's actually good advice, regardless of discipline. I will continue to work on my seat. (Which, by the way, is far from just a "riding" problem. I'm equally stiff, tight, and "perchy" while driving a car or performing other mundane sitting tasks.)



myhorsesonador said:


> That video looked good. The only thing is that she gave you her noes and you didnt release. As soon as she gives you her noes you have to release.


For Pete's sake. Just because I didn't immediately fling two feet of slack at her doesn't mean I didn't release. If I did that she could immediately snatch her head away, and she'd never learn that she has to not just give, but remain soft. I gave her a slight couple of inches, which removed all tension on the bit. As soon as she started to turn away, though, she felt light rein pressure again and so remained flexed.


----------



## JustDressageIt

Your horse is hollow and doesn't listen to your seat and leg aids; it does not have a good foundation, period. The start of a foundation, yes.. but a foundation to move upwards with? Nope. 
Get a trainer, and start learning all the flatwork stuff that you've missed, and learn how to ride your horse from your seat and leg primarily. Your horse has to learn how to work back to front and round up, and accept the bit and your aids. You say you have got the best foundation on her that you know how to - it's a good start, but it isn't enough, and you both have obviously hit a wall and you don't have the knowledge to get past it. 
Work with a trainer who knows more than you and can teach you these things. It isn't dressage in the sense of the English discipline; it's teaching the basics to apply to any sort of riding you might want to do. 
I'm not a dressage queen, I just believe that a good "dressage" (read: _training, _exactly what the word "dressage" means in French) base will lead you to success in any discipline. 
You can argue all you want with our points, and you've certainly provided quite the discussion - but the tone of this thread, to me, screams "I know best. I'm asking for advice, but really I'm going to refute every point made that I don't completely and totally agree with." It seems like a fairly eyes-wide-shut kind of way to go through a thread, especially when you're getting fantastic advice from some excellent posters. 
The riders that set themselves apart are those that say "I don't know it all, and I want to learn more."


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## MacabreMikolaj

bubba13 said:


> Thank you for understanding where I'm coming from. As for bitless bridles, I like them and think they have their place, but not on this mare. She's pretty resistant to anything resembling a sidepull, although she does ride fairly well in a halter. As I said previously, she does do well in a Little S hackamore, but I don't like the abrasive rope nosebands and would generally prefer to use a bit if the horse accepts it. I think I have address other parts of your posts in greater detail elsewhere, so for the sake of everyone reading, I won't repeat myself.


A cross-under bitless bridle is completely different from a side pull. Owning an Arab, I've had to deal with sensitivity issues and the fact that the easiest thing I've ever ridden her in is a rope halter (or even just a web halter). Of course, you lack finesse. She's been in a short shanked mechanical hack, much the same problem - you can muddle through a straight rein, but that's about it.

The cross-under bitless bridle works on entire head pressure. Nurtural GUARANTEES your horse will work better in it then in a bit - and I haven't seen them lose a challenge yet. They've put it on crazed barrel racers in tie downs and curbs that have no woah, and had that horse working 10x better in 5 minutes.

It's the English version of the hacks and side pulls available, and I love the finesse. It's ALL the pros of a snaffle bridle without the bit. My Arab mare has had a problem her entire life with running through a snaffle - it doesn't matter what you do when you ask her to halt, she WILL brace against the bit and haul you forward 5 more steps. She simply. will. not. halt when asked. Bitless bridle? I got HALF a step out of her, and a completely relaxed and easy halt.

Zierra in her Nurtual Bitless Bridle:


















And if you care, a little video from the other day showing her halt right at the end:





And for comparison, this is what she looks like in a snaffle bit:


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## bubba13

horsplay said:


> Sorry I am writing after only reading the first page but I just have to say that while snaffle bits have their place my horse hates them. I put a snaffle in his mouth and I can't do a thing with him. On his back, on the ground, on long lines he gapes his mouth open, avoids the bit or just doesn't respond where as I put in the curb that he has been ridden in since he was 4 and he rides beautifully, I can do almost anything with him in a curb, though I have never long lined him in a curb. The bit that is right for a horse is what ever that horse works best in. Granted it shouldn't work becouse of pain or fear of pain but some horses don't work in snaffles, it's not the one bit every horse in the world will love and work perfect in.


And thank you for understanding that snaffle bits, despite popular belief and no doubt partially thanks to the current popularity of commercialized Natural Horsemanship, are not the end all and be all of equipment. They have their place. They are great for breaking young horses. Some horses hate them. Horses are actually allowed to have preferences, and it doesn't make them inherently bad or resistant animals.




equinesalways said:


> Bits. Prior to being a dressage rider, I was a barrel racer. I know some things about reining too from a dear friend who was a World Champion and a true horseman. I also have incorporated some non-Parelli type NH into my training. All your modern day "western" trainers, cowboys, reiners, NH gurus, and barrel racers call the following bits stupid bits:
> 
> Tom Thumbs
> Kimberwickes
> Pelhams (used with one rein)
> 
> The bit shown as an "Argentine Snaffle" is just another Tom Thumb just as many of our knowledgeable members have pointed out already. It's shaped slightly different, but it's action is the same and causing the horse to distrust contact. In the video, I see an uncomfortable horse trying to do the right thing. I see a rider with soft hands, but poor timing and technique.


I am sorry, but an Argentine snaffle has a considerably different action than a Tom Thumb. A bazillion replies ago I addressed that issue. Not sure what you're getting at with the barrel racers hating Pelhams thing (are you agreeing or disagreeing with their viewpoint?) but as I mentioned previously, I use a Myler Pelham designed specifically for barrel racing. And my horse loves it.



> More on bits. Barrel racers do not use the above mentioned "stupid bits". They use combinations and gags and they use them to turn. When they are going straight, the hands go forward. They open in the inside hand to turn and then they give. A lot of their bits are ugly and severe, but the horses are never expected to take a contact with them.


They aren't expected to take contact? Really? Last time I went to a pro rodeo, last time I watched the NFR with all the nation's champions, they were taking hard contact on their horse's face, regardless of their bit/tie-down choice. Some of them were so severe I winced. I was appalled at several of them. Nearly all were physically pulling their horse around barrels. I did note the bitting choices. My favorite gal was running in a Little S hackamore and nothing else. Kudos to her! Pozzi was running in a wicked hackamore adjusted really low on the nasal bones--boo on her for that catastrophic, and in my mind very cruel, choice. Others were using twisted wire draw bits and so on; I've forgotten the rest. Quite a varied motley arrangement of metal, really.



> I happened to check out the barrel patterns on the OPs youtube page. The horse is running out of control, doesn't stop and sit for the barrels and is getting hauled around by her face around the pattern. There is a lack of proper training on this horse and it is a miracle she hasn't crashed yet. That bit and tie down combination forces the horse to throw her head up for every barrel. When the tie down engages, it slams her down on her front end and the hind end goes flying out behind which is the opposite you want. She actually looses her balance coming into the barrels instead of sitting and gathering more balance to make the turn.


We were still working on getting her to sit by stopping her and backing up at the pocket point in slow work and exhibitions when she got injured again. It was a work in progress, as was the dastardly third barrel, which I never can quite approach right. I certainly don't haul her around by the face. Yeah, I give her a sharp check and support her with the inside rein. Compared to some of the girls in the NFR (and what other professionals would I hold to a higher standard?) my hands are light as a feather.



> This rider certainly has some natural balance and is very deliberate in the way she rides, but needs more formal training to harness her natural skills. She also needs help outfitting her horse in appropriate tack for the job she is to do.
> 
> And for those who don't know, even barrel horses do flat work! Actually, lots of flat work. They are rarely allowed to full out gallop the pattern and care is taken to never drill the pattern. They are often schooled in a simple snaffle at home and the big bridle isn't brought out until shows or days the horse is allowed to gallop the pattern. In dressage, we don't teach a horse dressage by piaffing all day, we develop a horse systematically. The same goes for a barrel horse. You don't run the pattern to make the pattern better, you do flat work and basics to make the pattern better.


Agree with the slow/flatwork part, but I don't know where you're getting the snaffle bit part. I was just reading this month's Barrel Horse News. There's an article in there by Ed and Martha Wright about how to school the barrel horse in fundamentals, or something like that, all about basic training and slow work. You should see the mess they have on the "ideal example" horse's head. It's some sort of shanked gag bit, with draw reins, of some sort? So many straps attached to various places that I couldn't quite tell how it was rigged. And these are the people giving clinics; the ones who make all the big bucks and who are at the top of the industry.



> Lateral suppleness. When we talk about moving away from the leg, it means the horse is accepting of the rider's aids and crosses over with both front and hind legs, at least in the leg yield that is. What I saw in the video was a horse being pulled off balance and falling out over the shoulder while being kicked over. Pulling a horse off balance is upsetting to a horse and the rider should always try to influence the horse in a positive way. The focus shouldn't be on the face, but rather on getting a response from the seat and leg.


Did you by chance notice the hanging slack in the rein? Or the fact that "kicking over" consisted of solid light calf pressure?



> Standing flexions. The horse flexes well in the snaffle on the video, but the person with the reins is not rewarding the horse by giving. When the horse feels soft and flexes to your hand, you give back as a reward.


Addressed this when responding to another poster. I absolutely did give.


----------



## bubba13

CanyonCowboy said:


> There is one statement from the OP that I think tells a great deal about what the horse is saying here (and I think it substantiates what people are saying about problems with the curb bit that is being used). Bubba states in the post of 2/26 at 9:46PM, "I've got a long-shank mechanical hackamore with a flat leather nose, so similar concept. She's terrified of the swinging action of the shanks. The one time I rode her in it I didn't even have to pull back hard--the first time those shanks swung, she threw her head up and got about ready to bolt. I made a beeline back to the tackroom and haven't tried again since."
> 
> Seems to me this mare has had very bad experiences with shanked bits and is reacting to the shanked bit EVEN IF THERE ISN'T A BIT IN HER MOUTH!


Naw, she's just a spooky snot. Like to do a 180 over random flowers and her own shadow. She's never had a scary bit experience, and the only "bad" experiences have been the aforementioned trainer-derived, crazy-inducing issues.



Sahara said:


> And the horse blows through/doesn't respect a snaffle.....so what do you propose?
> 
> Do it like Charmayne James and barrel race bridleless!:mrgreen:


It takes a hell of a lot to get a horse to that pushbutton point. Many have been what some would consider "abused." You don't start bridleless. You go with big bits for a long time until the horse is so understanding and respectful, and so good at his job, that he no longer needs any help from you.

Have you seen some of the nasty leverage bits Charmayne herself designed and markets?










Yikes. Look at the purchase on that thing.










Yep, that's meant to be two-handed, unforgiving high port and all.


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## sarahver

bubba13 said:


> She is *fairly* relaxed and responsive in the curb. Far less so in the snaffle. For the rest of your post, you said much the same thing as trailhorserider, so I'll refer you to my response to her.
> 
> By tune up, I'm assuming you mean back to basics riding, on trails or in the arena? Believe it or not, I do a lot of that slow stuff, working on seat and leg cues, stopping, backing, flexion, and so on. Unless you mean something else?


Well I have to hand it to you Bubba, even if you haven't found the answer you are looking for, you certainly have taken the time to read and address each point. 

First off, I think your definition of relaxed and responsive and mine are quite different, this is not meant to be an attack, simply stating that to me personally, she looks incredibly stiff and not responsive at all. This is why I sometimes frame my advice in terms of "if it were my horse...." because ultimately it is your horse, you know her better and all we have to go on is a video or two. 

What I meant is "take the time it takes and it will take less time" to quote a very old saying.

Take as long as needed to encourage her to relax and use her back rather than brace her entire topline into a forced position. If that means walking on trails, working on turns and suppleness for a few weeks then so be it.

When she is walking responsively, move up to a trot. Same thing. YOU maintain the pace, not her. If she speeds up, slow her down and when she slows down release the pressure. She will probably speed up after two steps but that is OK, keep bringing her back to the desired pace. Once she gets the idea that she has to maintain the pace, and isn't constantly trying to go faster faster faster, she will relax much better into the gait and you can play around with the speed as you wish. At the moment, she is setting the pace, not you.

I know you do speed events but I have absolutely no doubt that you will get much more speed out of this mare if you get her to use herself properly in all of your training.

I have spent a lot of time riding racehorses (TB's) and they can all relax into a supple gait when encouraged to. In fact it is part of their training. You don't see a racehorse excercising with a hollow back and stiff neck. It just doesn't work and will never give you the amount of speed you are looking for.


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## bubba13

Tymer said:


> There you go. You need to learn. Look at what everyone has said-you've gotten some of the most stellar advice from some of the most intelligent people on this forum. I think that you should literally take notes on everything (everything that's positive) and make that your training regiment. So far it looks like you need to learn on well timed release and take it sloooow. Trotting around in circles isn't doing much, if anything.
> 
> Trust me, I've been in your shoes almost exactly. You've been doing the same thing forever, and as far as you know it's pretty much the right thing. You make a thread asking for something random but suddenly you get attacked for all sorts of different things that have little if anything to do with the original topic (Over a year ago I asked about breastplates, and got attacked about my trainer being, in short, evil. Today I've accepted that she is pretty awful but I'm stuck with her.) I fought and fought and fought with them. I refused to believe that anything was wrong. Hey, my horse seemed pretty happy! None of the barn's horses seemed angry or unwilling either! And most of all, everyone at the barn seemed to think we were doing the right thing. But after a bout of denial induced depression and a lot of investigation on the forums, I concluded that the public was right and I *gasp* was wrong.
> 
> Yes, what you're doing now is working. But wouldn't you want it to work just a little bit better? Maybe even a lot better? Unfortunately, you can't go much farther than where you are now without making some major changes. Maybe it's the bit, maybe you have to start from square one, or maybe the horse just learned that what she's doing now is correct. I honestly can't tell you, I'm not all that experienced especially compared to the others who have replied to both threads. We get that the horse is not doing as awful as some people are making it seem. I wish for you not to just read everyone's advice but to actually use some of it. I understand that its difficult to say "Alright, you guys are right, I'm wrong, I need to change. How do I do that?" In fact, those are probably THE most difficult words to say ever. I believe that once you accept it and say them, your life and your horse's life will begin to become much, much better.


Good points, but no one has yet had a better idea for how I should get her in shape and ready to barrel race without blowing her mind or risking her injured tendon. Besides trotting and loping big circles and long-trotting a straight line, what other kind of safe, good exercise is there?



Equilove said:


> In my opinion, you should teach her how to properly respond to a softer bit than cover up her problem (running through the contact) with a more severe bit. That head up in the air is evasion... maybe a running martingale with a snaffle, or something? She just seems ready to go. I don't think this is rider error though. She isn't pulling excessively... I mean, what do you want her to do, drop the reins? You have to be reasonable and expect her to have SOME contact on a horse whose single thought is "run run run". It's a BARREL horse, haha. I think her contact is appropriate.


See, I really don't view it as a severity of bit issue so much as an action of bit issue. And this is not just to you but to everyone who is so insistent on bit choice. My horse doesn't like snaffles--so what? Should I rip her face off until she decides it's easier to give in? Who made the official law that all horses must ride in snaffles, and they are Bad Horses if they do not? Isn't it enough that she is reasonably soft and responsive in my other bits, that I can ride her without tugging, pulling, jerking, and causing pain, and that besides all that she is happier in the other bits? Points to ponder.



JustDressageIt said:


> Your horse is hollow and doesn't listen to your seat and leg aids; it does not have a good foundation, period. The start of a foundation, yes.. but a foundation to move upwards with? Nope.
> Get a trainer, and start learning all the flatwork stuff that you've missed, and learn how to ride your horse from your seat and leg primarily. Your horse has to learn how to work back to front and round up, and accept the bit and your aids. You say you have got the best foundation on her that you know how to - it's a good start, but it isn't enough, and you both have obviously hit a wall and you don't have the knowledge to get past it.
> Work with a trainer who knows more than you and can teach you these things. It isn't dressage in the sense of the English discipline; it's teaching the basics to apply to any sort of riding you might want to do.
> I'm not a dressage queen, I just believe that a good "dressage" (read: _training, _exactly what the word "dressage" means in French) base will lead you to success in any discipline.
> You can argue all you want with our points, and you've certainly provided quite the discussion - but the tone of this thread, to me, screams "I know best. I'm asking for advice, but really I'm going to refute every point made that I don't completely and totally agree with." It seems like a fairly eyes-wide-shut kind of way to go through a thread, especially when you're getting fantastic advice from some excellent posters.
> The riders that set themselves apart are those that say "I don't know it all, and I want to learn more."


Oh yes, I'm certainly the closed-minded know-it-all type. You've got me pegged, all right. Please.

Of course there's more to work on in terms of general riding; softness; flexibility. I've mentioned that I have no access to good trainers--there are none that I trust, short of going with an unknown and switching up disciplines entirely. My mare DID, at one point, have a solid foundation. You don't see it now because it's been lost along the way. I supposed I've failed her by not insisting she maintain it, but this is not the same thing as saying that those holes were there all along, because they were not.

It's true that I'm not a problem-solver. I don't usually do well on horses with pre-existing issues. But I get along great with the fresh slate sort of horses.



MacabreMikolaj said:


> A cross-under bitless bridle is completely different from a side pull. Owning an Arab, I've had to deal with sensitivity issues and the fact that the easiest thing I've ever ridden her in is a rope halter (or even just a web halter). Of course, you lack finesse. She's been in a short shanked mechanical hack, much the same problem - you can muddle through a straight rein, but that's about it.
> 
> The cross-under bitless bridle works on entire head pressure. Nurtural GUARANTEES your horse will work better in it then in a bit - and I haven't seen them lose a challenge yet. They've put it on crazed barrel racers in tie downs and curbs that have no woah, and had that horse working 10x better in 5 minutes.
> 
> It's the English version of the hacks and side pulls available, and I love the finesse. It's ALL the pros of a snaffle bridle without the bit. My Arab mare has had a problem her entire life with running through a snaffle - it doesn't matter what you do when you ask her to halt, she WILL brace against the bit and haul you forward 5 more steps. She simply. will. not. halt when asked. Bitless bridle? I got HALF a step out of her, and a completely relaxed and easy halt.


It's true I haven't used a Nurtural and don't know a whole lot about them. The only patented bitless bridle I've used is a Hadden hackamore. I've had great results on some horses but not others. The crossover action of the former is different; I wish someone I knew had one so I could borrow it. Hmmmm....


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## kevinshorses

Well you certainly seem to have it all figured out. Your horse should be performing great in no time at all. I'm sure there is no reason for you to start any more threads asking for help either since you have it all figured out. Good luck.


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## Equilove

bubba13 said:


> *See, I really don't view it as a severity of bit issue so much as an action of bit issue.* And this is not just to you but to everyone who is so insistent on bit choice. My horse doesn't like snaffles--so what? Should I rip her face off until she decides it's easier to give in? Who made the official law that all horses must ride in snaffles, and they are Bad Horses if they do not? Isn't it enough that she is reasonably soft and responsive in my other bits, that I can ride her without tugging, pulling, jerking, and causing pain, and that besides all that she is happier in the other bits? Points to ponder.


The action of the bit is what determines its severity, in most cases... and I think you're confusing what your horse "likes" and "dislikes" with what she responds to, and what she doesn't. If she doesn't respond to a mild snaffle (as in, she runs through it), then she doesn't have a very good foundation. Your horse is inverted and evasive. Put a snaffle on her, get her flexing left and right, get her round, and I think you will eliminate that evasive attitude of hers.






See how she keeps tossing her head? She only does it when you put contact on her mouth. It looks like she's pretty touchy.


----------



## Equilove

Also, a horse that is so stiff and inverted and has its head high up, busy evading the bit, is very likely to trip and fall on its rider.


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## riccil0ve

I'm not sure I mentioned it before, but my mare hates snaffles. I ride her in a Kimberwick. No one on here is implying that snaffles are the end-all, be-all of bits, or that a horse is bad if it doesn't go well in one. I think everyone is just disagreeing with your use of a Tom thumb in contact. Shanked bits like that are not made for the contact you are using. You are soft and steady, yes. But the ratio of weight increases tenfold in a bit like this, where as the ratio is pound for pound in a snaffle set up. Read: This bit is being used innapropriately. If you want to ride in contact, find a different bit that works for your mare, because this one isn't it. Or keep the bit and change how you ride in it, because it obviously isn't working.

Also, I never said the mare would make it to the Olympics in dressage. But with the right training, she could easily be a great lower level dressage mount. Don't make excuses for her lack of "dressage," it's ridiculous. My mare was WP trained with a back and a neck a mile long. She will never be the horse doing perfect third or fourth level tests, but she can **** sure be a rocking second level mount. Don't sell your horse short.


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## gottatrot

riccil0ve said:


> No one on here is implying that snaffles are the end-all, be-all of bits, or that a horse is bad if it doesn't go well in one. I think everyone is just disagreeing with your use of a Tom thumb in contact.


Agreed. 

I have to say though that to me your horse appears to be the opposite of how you describe her. She seems to be incredibly forgiving and has a wonderful attitude to be able to go and work forward for you even when she is constantly being checked in the mouth.

I know a couple of horses that would flip over backwards if someone rode them with that kind of pressure on their mouth. When you ride in a curb you have to remember that the bit amplifies the pressure. So even though your contact feels light to you, it is the leverage that amplifies the pressure on your horse's mouth. 

Your second horse you were using to pony with was responding well to you. I notice that you rode completely differently: one-handed and neck reining. Does this horse know how to neck rein? Your Argentine/Tom-thumb would work fine if you simply used one-rein and neck reined your horse. Then you could only cue her with the reins as a back up and ride her off your seat and legs (as curb bits are intended to be used).

A person can think they have light hands all they want. If your horse is open-mouthed gaping in a snaffle then your horse either has no clue at all what bit pressure means (green as grass) OR your hands are perceived by the horse as being heavy. Apparently your horse does not understand a snaffle so if you go back to trying one be sure your horse understands thoroughly what the snaffle means and stops and turns lightly at a walk before you go on to trotting and cantering. This CANNOT be accomplished in one session.

One thing I don't understand...you can't trail ride your horse because you are concerned about her weak tendons. But you can canter for long periods of time, turn sharply and have her stop suddenly from a canter?


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## offinthedistance

kevinshorses said:


> Well you certainly seem to have it all figured out. Your horse should be performing great in no time at all. I'm sure there is no reason for you to start any more threads asking for help either since you have it all figured out. Good luck.


Agree with that !
Whilst I'm learning a lot from some replies, must admit I'm totally over the whole issue here. The horse looks mega pained and I'd be ashamed to be seen riding like this and more so to be ignoring the problem. End of.


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## corinowalk

Equilove said:


> The action of the bit is what determines its severity, in most cases... and I think you're confusing what your horse "likes" and "dislikes" with what she responds to, and what she doesn't. If she doesn't respond to a mild snaffle (as in, she runs through it), then she doesn't have a very good foundation. Your horse is inverted and evasive. Put a snaffle on her, get her flexing left and right, get her round, and I think you will eliminate that evasive attitude of hers.
> 
> YouTube - Bones: Take IV
> 
> See how she keeps tossing her head? She only does it when you put contact on her mouth. It looks like she's pretty touchy.



I think you need to take a second look at that video. Every time that horse nods its head, it is because it wants to go forward...not stand and toss. She is anxious to get moving because...she was taught fast around barrels is what she is supposed to do. 

I agree that she is trying very hard for her rider. I can also see the attitude come through. She seems to be a willful horse with a mind of her own. 

I think if you all would ease up on this girl, you would see that she is trying her best for her horse. As far as Bubba not taking advice, I haven't seen much constructive advice that she hasn't accepted and absorbed.

You say to switch the bit. She says that snaffles don't work and she prefers to ride bitted and not bitless. She rides in a leverage bit. Last I checked, that isn't against the law. 

You say it is a pain issue. She states that she has had the horse meticulously vetted but that she will check back into it come spring shot time. You still keep insisting. 

You say that she is a stiff rider with heavy hands. She says that she is not and I don't see her handling her horse any rougher than I would. She also admits that she isn't winning any prizes with her riding. Yet you still keep making the same dang points!

Back down a little, come at someone with a little less attitude and people will be more likely to take you seriously. 

Bubba, I think what you have here is a horse fresh off of a lay up. She just achin to get back to what she wants to do, run. All the talk about "making" her slow down, that just isn't going to work. It would be very helpful if you could get her a nice long stretch where *you* could pick the gait and she could pick the pace. Let her find her own cadence for a few miles and she might just change her mind a bit. 

Bit wise, I think a shanked bit would do just fine. It beats a combo gag any day. I see you getting a bit heavy handed with her and I see her getting a bit heavy with you. No matter, she stays pretty light. 

As far as the tie down conversation goes, I say if you intend to run her again, you should be training with the tie down on. While I don't agree with using it to keep her from popping you in the mouth, I do think they are an amazing tool to have in a gaming contest. I've seen the race video, Bones knows how to use that tie down to brace against and get a better turn. 

Whats her nutrition looking like? I doubt you have her hopped up on anything but its worth asking. 

What is her work load? How often do you ride and how long has she been back in work? 

My former horse, Nico was a total hot headed mess. Between regular work, low sugar feed and patience on my part he was less spazzy. Still a spaz...still a head tosser....still ready to run...just less spazzy.


----------



## riccil0ve

I think this thread has gotten into a spiral. The OP started out on the defense, causing the other posters to be defensive, and so on.

Honestly, if the title was different, and there wasn't all the "things to note" in the first post, my first post would have been my long actual critique/advice.

OP, to people who didn't see the first thread first, this thread did start out saying, "critique me, but don't bring up all our problems." I'm not saying this with attitude, so I hope you don't read it that way. But I did not see the original thread, and the first post in this thread did floor me. Just some food for thought if you post more critique videos in the future.

You can say the psychological babble is nauseating, but it's something I pay attention to. The "tone" of one post will bring about a certain "tone" in the general replies. Again, just food for thought.


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## Equilove

riccil0ve said:


> I think this thread has gotten into a spiral. The OP started out on the defense, causing the other posters to be defensive, and so on.
> 
> Honestly, if the title was different, and there wasn't all the "things to note" in the first post, my first post would have been my long actual critique/advice.
> 
> OP, to people who didn't see the first thread first, this thread did start out saying, "critique me, but don't bring up all our problems." I'm not saying this with attitude, so I hope you don't read it that way. But I did not see the original thread, and the first post in this thread did floor me. Just some food for thought if you post more critique videos in the future.
> 
> You can say the psychological babble is nauseating, but it's something I pay attention to. The "tone" of one post will bring about a certain "tone" in the general replies. Again, just food for thought.


She posted to get people to say "Ohhhh, you're right, I see, I'm sorry." She doesn't want our help because she thinks she has it all figured out, and is just defending herself against *people who are trying to help her and her horse* instead of taking what she can use and leaving what she can't. In the end, it seems all she wants is for us to say she's right and not doing a thing wrong, and that she and her horse are just fine.


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## tinyliny

I am not sure the mindset of the OP but you know, she will do just fine without any advice. All in all, she is a good rider and takes fundamentally good care of her horse. Although , without making changes in the way she rides the horse will likely not change her way of going, that doesnt' really matter all that much. They are both comfortable where they are and she isn't torturing the horse. (thought I didn't feel that way when I watched the "racking" video. That looked bad to me). There is no reason why they cannot continue merrily along their way for years and be a happy pair.
I know that the mare could be more comfortable in the long run by some changes in riding style/and or equipment. But if nothing changed, she'd be fine, too. 
Time to let them "soak on it" and see what to make of this experience. I hope it hasn't turned the OP off of posting forever.


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## bsms

bubba13 said:


> ...It's not bits she detests so much as authority. Surely everyone knows the alpha mare type? She respects and responds to me because she knows she has to, but she also lets me know just how horribly mean I am by making her actually, like, DO stuff. Poor thing.
> 
> Never said that. Getting sick of the psychiatric evaluation, though...


My final post on this thread: Your horse isn't ready to run barrels, and she sure isn't ready for 'racking'. The problem isn't the mare's attitude...


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## NdAppy

I don't see where in heck you guys are getting that she doesn't want help.

She has ask, repeatedly I might add, for _different_ ideas then "snaffles (which everyone seems to try and cram down her throat)" and "trotting and loping big circles and long-trotting a straight line, what other kind of safe, good exercise is there?"
Her bit is _not _a tom thumb. The OP seems to have a really, really good grasp of the actions, and what not of bits. In fact I _know_ that she does.

Ricci - you seem to be pulling things out your butt,. There is no tone to any of her posts other then talking about and addressing things that were brought up to her. You don't seem to like her and you seem to feel the need to drive it home on this thread.

bsms - without you personally knowing her or her mare, how can you say what she can or cant do? In truth, you can't. No one can. Saying that she is essentially ruining her mare is rude and uncalled for.



Not *one* person has given her any other ideas to try.

*Dang near* everyone that is riding her butt on this issue is after her she isn't training the way they want. 

It is honestly disheartening to see how everyone has ganged up on her because she is actually _using her brain_ and debating the different training ideas. I, in all honest, thinks this irritates you (collective) the most. You (collective) can't seem to wrap your mind around the fact there is someone that isn't going to blindly try everything that is suggested. 

A trainer is not always the best answer. _READ_ some of the OP's responses on that. Would you honestly want her to go back to the type of trainers she had before? I know that I wouldn't. 

Did you guys even read this - 


> Here's the ghastly thing that will make people scream in horror: One of the more respected and experienced English trainers has hired me to break, ride, and tune up her horses. I've worked for her for several years as her only trainer; she watches me ride, complains about how stiff I am, and marvels at my results with the horses. I've also broke and trained for one of the best (and meanest) Western trainers in this area. In several circles, I am the person people come to with problems--gate/barn/buddy sour horses, trouble with turns, stiffness, stubborness, etc. I frequently get complimented by the professional trainers in the area on my riding and training, and several have actually come to me to swap stories and ask for my advice on a problem. And this isn't a podunk, ******* area, either. There are some considerably good horsemen around


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## bsms

NdAppy said:


> ...bsms - without you personally knowing her or her mare, how can you say what she can or cant do? In truth, you can't. No one can. Saying that she is essentially ruining her mare is rude and uncalled for.
> 
> Not *one* person has given her any other ideas to try.
> 
> *Dang near* everyone that is riding her butt on this issue is after her she isn't training the way they want...


Wrong. This is how the OP describes the following video on YouTube:

"Speed "Racking" Foundation Quarter Horse!

OK, so that's a bit of an exaggeration. But this girl can TROT. No, I don't normally ride her like this. I usually post the trot and hold her in some form of frame. But this is good exercise, and once in a while it's fun to let her kick out. She wasn't even showing off for the camera, as sometimes she can rock it much harder than this. Check out that flailing pastern action.

"Bones" is a 1D barrel horse in her day job, and she can be a bit high strung and frankly "crazy," despite a good foundation in riding training. Her speed in the arena makes up for her nuttiness in the pasture, though I do expect respect from her and, despite appearances, always have complete control. She's had quite the saga with repeated soundness issues (torn tendons and ligaments) in the past, and is now hopefully getting back in shape to start barrel racing again in the spring. View my other videos for her old barrel runs and rehabilitation journey."






My OPINION - which the OP asked for - is unchanged. This is not helpful, and being able to sometimes ride better doesn't mean you instantly cancel out what has been done wrong before. Same for trying a snaffle bit - trying it one time doesn't mean much, particularly when the OP describes this horse as previously having had a lot of rough training.

The OP can and will do what she wants. It seems from her own words that she wants to ride barrels this spring with the mare, and what I and many others are saying is that the mare needs a reset. No change of tack or simple trick will get the mare riding well by April.

Respect. Trust. Consistency. Setting the horse up for success. You can't get them from Dover Saddlery, and you can't get them from a trainer's sales stand. And they all require TIME.

Ronald Reagan once said, "There are simple answers, but no easy answers!" He may well have learned that from riding horses...and of course, this is all IMHO!


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## Alwaysbehind

bubba13 said:


> Never, ever said that without immediately clarifying what I meant, horrified and people's interpretations. Don't believe it for a minute.


Went and re-read the locked thread.


This is what you posted:



bubba13 said:


> You can't be collected in the ring when you're running, though you have to have absolute control of the body. The thing is, if you really slow your horse down in the pasture and insist on a WP or HUS-like cadence, you're likely going to lose the forward momentum you need for a good racer. A good barrel horse is smarter than its jockey, anyway. Bones is sure 'nough smarter than me when it comes to running--I've got to trust her in the heat of the moment. I can force control over her in the pasture and make her a very unhappy horse, but she was bred and trained to run, and who am I to insist against that? I've helped to make her crazy in my quest for a good barrel horse--it would be unfair of me to now punish her for who she's become.



I do not read that as a clarification, I read it as an excuse.


When you read things like that along with things like this:




bubba13 said:


> I know it's not fair of me to post such a horrible-appearing video and then attempt to explain my way out of the situation when no one can believe me. What was I aiming for with this thread? To hear unbiased input. To see how quickly people would jump to a conclusion and judge. To see if people would bother to read a video description or look at other videos. To see if anyone could determine what gait, exactly, she is doing.




It is pretty clear your whole purpose in these threads is to make fodder so you can laugh and enjoy yourself proclaiming we are all stupid.


Let me point out that you did not, in your original post or in many posts afterward ask if people could determine the horses gait.


And is it really fair to post a video with no real question other than 'what do you think' and expect people to go searching for other videos you might have posted on line?


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## Sahara

bubba13 said:


> My mare DID, at one point, have a solid foundation. You don't see it now because it's been lost along the way. .


You lost me right here. 

I appreciate the effort of your debate and the fact that you have your "thinking cap" on. However, reread what you posted. Is it your goal to rehabilitate and rebuild this lost foundation? Or just get her on barrels? I honestly don't think you can do one without the other.


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## riccil0ve

NdAppy, that ticks me off. For all you know, I am a phsycology major. I am certainly not pulling anything out of my rear. Hopefully the OP will read my last post as it was intended. I do not dislike the OP, shame on you for making assumptions. The OP is a good rider, but is currently plateaued in her and Bones' progress. No one has offered "different" advice because no one has any other advice. Whatever, I am done with this thread. NdAppy, get off your high horse and quit trying to save the OP.


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## sarahver

NdAppy, I also NEVER once took part in any ganging up on the OP. Whilst in my first post I did mention a snaffle, if you go back and look at my second post I did NOT mention a snaffle since I could tell that it wasn't necessary to bring it up.

I DID post an idea for her to work on and I WOULD do exactly what I posted if the horse was in my hands. Therefore it was a genuine suggestion. I also genuinely don't care if she takes my idea and uses it or not, makes absolutely no difference to me. Just thought I would add it to the pot.

I understand that you are sticking up for the OP but in reality, some of us have tried to help without getting involved with either side, and certainly don't plan to. 

Last suggestion that I just thought of for you Bubba13: Is there any way you can swim her? Great excercise and will get her fitter quicker without putting too much pressure on the tendon.


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## NdAppy

ricci I have read your posts all over this forum. Honestly yes, I think you do pull things out of thin air and I honestly believe that you do not like the op from her posts. Are you a psychology major? I have no clue and beside that, WTH does that have to do with anything in the thread? I hoenstly dont care what you do or don't do for a living. Doesn't affect me in any way, shape or form. All i know is from your posts, you are a person I would have nothing to do with in a real life environment.

On a high horse am I? I suggest that you look around at the rest of this thread. If I am, then *you* and the rest of the people attacking her and not giving her any useful opinions are just as guilty. You have made just as many assumptions in this thread as everyone else.

What is wrong with defending her? I know of both her and bones from other forums. Is there a problem with that? Heck no. Other then the fact I might know a lot more about the OP and her horses then you do.

What is wrong with her asking for other options? What is wrong with her explaining why things haven't worked in the past? Not one of you can give a straight answer to either of those questions.


Sarah - All we can do is suggest what "we" would do if she were our horse. I honestly think that Bones is a mare that a lot of people would have given up on, or kept putting harsher and harsher equipment on if she were not in bubba's hands. The swimming is a good suggestion. Not sure if bubba has access to that or not. That is a good low impact exercise. 


I was not singling anyone out with my "you's" unless I put their name there. it was more a collective whole of the people who wanted cram opinions and parroting information.


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## Alwaysbehind

NdAppy said:


> What is wrong with her asking for other options? What is wrong with her explaining why things haven't worked in the past? Not one of you can give a straight answer to either of those questions.


Nothing and Nothing.

I would not have a problem with it all if the facts did not need to get dragged out and if the original purpose of the thread(s) was not simply to run an experiment and make fun of people.


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## sarahver

NdAppy said:


> Sarah - All we can do is suggest what "we" would do if she were our horse. I honestly think that Bones is a mare that a lot of people would have given up on, or kept putting harsher and harsher equipment on if she were not in bubba's hands. The swimming is a good suggestion. Not sure if bubba has access to that or not. That is a good low impact exercise.
> 
> 
> I was not singling anyone out with my "you's" unless I put their name there. it was more a collective whole of the people who wanted cram opinions and parroting information.


I am sure you weren't singling me out in particular, however I wanted to say something as I almost didn't comment on this thread as I wasn't sure how to do it in a way that seemed unbiased as the discussion had already become heated when I dropped in. 

She is a nice mare, far too good to be giving up on and I don't think the OP plans to do that. If 100 people give advice and only 1 piece of advice is used, well that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I just wasn't interested in an argument, just wanted to say a few words and leave it at that. So whilst you weren't singling anyone out, a collective 'you' will offend a wider variety of people :wink:


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## NdAppy

Yep sarah, I know that. :wink: But it also covers the majority as well in most cases. I just wanted to make sure that you knew I wasn't referring to you.


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## Whisper22

I think several of you need to go back and read the administrators post.


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## farmpony84

In order to preserve any "nutritional value" on this thread I would like to remind all involved of the Conscientious Etiquette Policy. Particularly the below insert:

_Please exercise what we call conscientious etiquette when you post. This means that you keep the objective of preserving the forum's friendly, fun, helpful environment in the forefront of your mind as you write your message.

If your post is nasty, condescending, rude, etc., regardless of how subtle, and whether shrouded in the form of opinion or otherwise, it is subject to be removed and your access to the Horse Forum may be restricted._


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## bubba13

sarahver said:


> Well I have to hand it to you Bubba, even if you haven't found the answer you are looking for, you certainly have taken the time to read and address each point.
> 
> First off, I think your definition of relaxed and responsive and mine are quite different, this is not meant to be an attack, simply stating that to me personally, she looks incredibly stiff and not responsive at all. This is why I sometimes frame my advice in terms of "if it were my horse...." because ultimately it is your horse, you know her better and all we have to go on is a video or two.
> 
> What I meant is "take the time it takes and it will take less time" to quote a very old saying.
> 
> Take as long as needed to encourage her to relax and use her back rather than brace her entire topline into a forced position. If that means walking on trails, working on turns and suppleness for a few weeks then so be it.
> 
> When she is walking responsively, move up to a trot. Same thing. YOU maintain the pace, not her. If she speeds up, slow her down and when she slows down release the pressure. She will probably speed up after two steps but that is OK, keep bringing her back to the desired pace. Once she gets the idea that she has to maintain the pace, and isn't constantly trying to go faster faster faster, she will relax much better into the gait and you can play around with the speed as you wish. At the moment, she is setting the pace, not you.
> 
> I know you do speed events but I have absolutely no doubt that you will get much more speed out of this mare if you get her to use herself properly in all of your training.
> 
> I have spent a lot of time riding racehorses (TB's) and they can all relax into a supple gait when encouraged to. In fact it is part of their training. You don't see a racehorse excercising with a hollow back and stiff neck. It just doesn't work and will never give you the amount of speed you are looking for.


You're right about having different definitions. Maybe it's wrong, and maybe it's not fair, but I hold all of my horses to different standards based on their temperament, job, past training, conformation, and so on. I wouldn't tolerate her degree of stiffness in a young horse, or in an English horse, or in a trail horse. And again maybe that's the source of some of the disconnect, and of our problems. But that's where I'm coming from.

I would like to get her softer. I don't now how achievable that goal is. I do agree with all of the people who have suggested that if I were able to release my own tension, the horse would be more relaxed, too. That's easier said than immediately done, though.

We do do a lot of walking, both relaxed and while asking for frame and impulsion. That just makes a rather long, boring, and bandwidth-killing video to post online.



kevinshorses said:


> Well you certainly seem to have it all figured out. Your horse should be performing great in no time at all. I'm sure there is no reason for you to start any more threads asking for help either since you have it all figured out. Good luck.


Absolutely! And I could certainly say the same for you.



Equilove said:


> The action of the bit is what determines its severity, in most cases... and I think you're confusing what your horse "likes" and "dislikes" with what she responds to, and what she doesn't. If she doesn't respond to a mild snaffle (as in, she runs through it), then she doesn't have a very good foundation. Your horse is inverted and evasive. Put a snaffle on her, get her flexing left and right, get her round, and I think you will eliminate that evasive attitude of hers.
> 
> YouTube - Bones: Take IV
> 
> See how she keeps tossing her head? She only does it when you put contact on her mouth. It looks like she's pretty touchy.


That's a really poor and older video; I apologize. Watching it again I'm cringing a little. I'm riding badly, and not reaching down my rein far enough. Not to mention that she certainly appears to be limping (I was insisting on this at the time, but my vet, farrier, and anyone I could recruit to observe denied it).

She does flex left and right fine. Vertical flexion is more of a problem, but still achieveable on the ground and at a walk or slow trot. It does not translate to higher speeds, however.


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## Elana

I read thru this entire thread. I have not been on since the Racking thread was posted. I have looked at the horse running and trotting and I will only say what I see.

First I will go to the Conformation photo. This mare is not badly put together but she is posty behind which WILL put stress on her back. You cannot remake her basic conformation.

Next, the first video posted in the thread and following bit discussion.
I have ridden both English and Western and trained dressage. I spent a lot of time in my life remaking spoiled horses because I could get them cheap and rebuild them and resell them to responsible homes. Taught me a lot. Paid for college (in part). 

Looking at this horse and rider the first thing I notice is the rider's hands are not quiet. The horse is getting touched in the mouth with every post. It is not harsh or bad, but for some horses it can be.. and in that bit it is. Argue with it, but really it is just physics.. fulcrums and levers. The horse is stiff and hollows her backin that ride. She is hurting or expecting to be hurt. She is not showing any ability to trainsition IN the trot. She just trots and fights.. either with the expectation of getting hit in the mouth or with the expectation of getting hit in her sore back. Seeing her pony, I bet her backis sore and she acts like it. 

Getting to the bit.. harshness is dependent on hands and on the bit phsysics. A long shank ABOVE the bar of the bit, especially if that is where the curb strap or cahin attaches, is more able to deliver pressure to the bars of the mouth than a short shank. A long shank below the bit has the same action. These bits work on the bars of the mouth which, in some horses, can be very sensitive. It the shank above the bar of the bit is too long, and the horse has wolf teeth, the bit can hit the wolf teeth. Ouch. 

I look at this horse trotting and I want to take her OFF barrels. OFF any sport work. I want to put her in a RAWHIDE CORE BOSAL and a different saddle and get her in an arena.. half an arena.. and start over. She is a nice horse from what I see. She needs to take a step back. I want to take off that d**ned tie down that she actually SEARCHES FOR. I want to take her back to a WALK. I want to get her to stretch her top line down.. and give her a reason to do so (rawhide bosal and horsehair reins properly installed are WONDERFUL for that). I want to give this mare PATIENCE and TIME. 

After a few weeks of walking and showing her it is OK to bring her head down.. it is OK to relax.. it is OK to just walk along, Ok to do a circle with a light touch and a leading rein and instant release for responding and NEVER fighting her back, I would pick up a LITTLE contact and start some circle work at the WALK. Over a few days (and it might be weeks because she has been pretty tense for a LONG time) I would start to ask for a longer stride and then a shorter stride.. serpentines, figure eights (two circles touching a the center) and halts to walk.. and walk to halt. NO REIN BACKS AT ALL. 

When I had that all nice and quiet I would pick up the trot and again long and low key. As the horse learns it is OK to trot long and low and at an even speed I would jazz up the routine with an trail ride (if it can be done without her getting over the top). If not, make some caveletti. Yes. Western trainers use caveletti. They use them to get a horse to stretch on top, lower their head and build a tight underline. Teach this horse to extend and collect at the trot. If she starts to fight and raise her head, then take her back a step. 

When you can get her to go quietly and stretch her tip line and relax.. change pace with her rear end tucked (a bit hard for her.. she is posty behind and a little down hill) do balanced transistions up and down.. nice halts and starts from a halt to an EASY lope on the Bosal, reintroduce a bit. I don't care if it is a MullenMouth Snaffle. She is just going to WEAR it with the bosal. No reins. Keep working her quietly. 

Eventually add reins. Take them up gradually and gradually go back to riding her with a bit. If she flings her head up and hollws her back. STEP BACK on her training. Take it slow. Rebuild this horse and then retrain barrels if you want to. 

It could take you quite awhile to bring her back. Right now she looks sore in the back and that racking stunt makes it worse. If you have ever had a back spasm you will know how disabiling back pain can be. 

You say she had all her basics but lost them. The reason most horses lose their basics is because their riders stop practicing them. Only after the horse becomes this mare do they realize something is wrong.. and then they ask for help.. and describe the horse as b**chy and as "this thing." 

We make our horses this way.. and this is that. I have had horses like this mare that I have rehabbed and they all needed a start over.. and time and patience. 

That racking video and the later one posted of the mare running barrels says to me you may not have the patience to do either. That is a shame because this is one very nice horse.

I did see her limping in the barrel video. It was very obvious.

I am done.


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## bubba13

gottatrot said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I have to say though that to me your horse appears to be the opposite of how you describe her. She seems to be incredibly forgiving and has a wonderful attitude to be able to go and work forward for you even when she is constantly being checked in the mouth.
> 
> I know a couple of horses that would flip over backwards if someone rode them with that kind of pressure on their mouth. When you ride in a curb you have to remember that the bit amplifies the pressure. So even though your contact feels light to you, it is the leverage that amplifies the pressure on your horse's mouth.
> 
> Your second horse you were using to pony with was responding well to you. I notice that you rode completely differently: one-handed and neck reining. Does this horse know how to neck rein? Your Argentine/Tom-thumb would work fine if you simply used one-rein and neck reined your horse. Then you could only cue her with the reins as a back up and ride her off your seat and legs (as curb bits are intended to be used).
> 
> A person can think they have light hands all they want. If your horse is open-mouthed gaping in a snaffle then your horse either has no clue at all what bit pressure means (green as grass) OR your hands are perceived by the horse as being heavy. Apparently your horse does not understand a snaffle so if you go back to trying one be sure your horse understands thoroughly what the snaffle means and stops and turns lightly at a walk before you go on to trotting and cantering. This CANNOT be accomplished in one session.
> 
> One thing I don't understand...you can't trail ride your horse because you are concerned about her weak tendons. But you can canter for long periods of time, turn sharply and have her stop suddenly from a canter?


I can't trail ride her because I don't have trails. Otherwise I'd be out there daily, doing hill work especially. And even if I had time to haul to the nearest trail riding place, everything is a muddy, unsafe, swampy mess right now. Hopefully I'll have more opportunities in the summer.

I'll have to ask you to trust my judgment of my horse's temperament and attitude. As someone else noted, I know my horse's quirks, and I can make her appear far more forgiving and kind than she actually is. She has turned into a flat-out rodeo bronc when ridden by someone who didn't know her (and who gave her slack in the rein and leaned forward)--two jumps and a headfirst crash into a fence. The trainer I was using before refused to ride her, saying she was too crazy and she didn't want to mess with her. And this is a professional who is used to high-strung horses. (And this is a reason I'm wary of "barrel racing trainers.")

I do understand how bits work, too, and when I say light hands, I refer not just to how my hands feel to me, but how I feel the mouthpiece and the curb working on my horse. Through most of my "contact" the bit is rotated just enough in the mouth to start placing tongue pressure, and the curb is up to the point of being applied on the jaw, but not clamping down tightly.

As for neck-reining, yes, she does this well. But as soon as I switch to riding her on a loose, single rein, up goes her head into the old inverted position. Sometimes bracing, sometimes simply high. And I thought that I was not supposed to allow her to do this?



offinthedistance said:


> Agree with that !
> Whilst I'm learning a lot from some replies, must admit I'm totally over the whole issue here. The horse looks mega pained and I'd be ashamed to be seen riding like this and more so to be ignoring the problem. End of.


And I'd be ashamed to be seen jumping on a bandwagon of ignorance while ignoring replies and failing at reading comprehension, so there you go. I'll let my vets and farriers know about your diagnosis.



corinowalk said:


> I think you need to take a second look at that video. Every time that horse nods its head, it is because it wants to go forward...not stand and toss. She is anxious to get moving because...she was taught fast around barrels is what she is supposed to do.
> 
> I agree that she is trying very hard for her rider. I can also see the attitude come through. She seems to be a willful horse with a mind of her own.
> 
> I think if you all would ease up on this girl, you would see that she is trying her best for her horse. As far as Bubba not taking advice, I haven't seen much constructive advice that she hasn't accepted and absorbed.
> 
> You say to switch the bit. She says that snaffles don't work and she prefers to ride bitted and not bitless. She rides in a leverage bit. Last I checked, that isn't against the law.
> 
> You say it is a pain issue. She states that she has had the horse meticulously vetted but that she will check back into it come spring shot time. You still keep insisting.
> 
> You say that she is a stiff rider with heavy hands. She says that she is not and I don't see her handling her horse any rougher than I would. She also admits that she isn't winning any prizes with her riding. Yet you still keep making the same dang points!
> 
> Back down a little, come at someone with a little less attitude and people will be more likely to take you seriously.
> 
> Bubba, I think what you have here is a horse fresh off of a lay up. She just achin to get back to what she wants to do, run. All the talk about "making" her slow down, that just isn't going to work. It would be very helpful if you could get her a nice long stretch where *you* could pick the gait and she could pick the pace. Let her find her own cadence for a few miles and she might just change her mind a bit.
> 
> Bit wise, I think a shanked bit would do just fine. It beats a combo gag any day. I see you getting a bit heavy handed with her and I see her getting a bit heavy with you. No matter, she stays pretty light.
> 
> As far as the tie down conversation goes, I say if you intend to run her again, you should be training with the tie down on. While I don't agree with using it to keep her from popping you in the mouth, I do think they are an amazing tool to have in a gaming contest. I've seen the race video, Bones knows how to use that tie down to brace against and get a better turn.
> 
> Whats her nutrition looking like? I doubt you have her hopped up on anything but its worth asking.
> 
> What is her work load? How often do you ride and how long has she been back in work?
> 
> My former horse, Nico was a total hot headed mess. Between regular work, low sugar feed and patience on my part he was less spazzy. Still a spaz...still a head tosser....still ready to run...just less spazzy.


She eats a fortified feed (Purina's Nature's Essentials) with a cup and a half of whole oats twice a day. No sweet feed, certainly. And then she's on a B-1/Magnesium supplement, a joint supplement, and a hoof supplement. One-two flakes of regular grass/brome/fescue hay daily, and 12 hours of pasture grazing.

Thank you for coming at this with a fellow barrel racer's perspective. While in an ideal world barrel horses should be held to the same standards as other horses, in actuality, that doesn't always seem to be the case, and who would know better than experienced barrel racers? I've actually shown some professionals my tape (people who actually make a living breeding and training for the futurities) and they mentioned the few issues I was already working on. Sit down, reach down the rein, get a better rate, set her up better for the third. But they certainly didn't see any catastrophic problems and overall were impressed with the "snakiness," grit, talent, and training of my mare.

The tie-down isn't to keep her from hitting me in the face (thankfully, that's never been an issue). It's just to keep her from _really_ raising her head high and getting over the bit. Which almost never, ever happens.

These past three weeks, I've been trying to ride her 5 days a week, 30-45 minutes at a stretch, at least half of that walking.



sarahver said:


> NdAppy, I also NEVER once took part in any ganging up on the OP. Whilst in my first post I did mention a snaffle, if you go back and look at my second post I did NOT mention a snaffle since I could tell that it wasn't necessary to bring it up.
> 
> I DID post an idea for her to work on and I WOULD do exactly what I posted if the horse was in my hands. Therefore it was a genuine suggestion. I also genuinely don't care if she takes my idea and uses it or not, makes absolutely no difference to me. Just thought I would add it to the pot.
> 
> I understand that you are sticking up for the OP but in reality, some of us have tried to help without getting involved with either side, and certainly don't plan to.
> 
> Last suggestion that I just thought of for you Bubba13: Is there any way you can swim her? Great excercise and will get her fitter quicker without putting too much pressure on the tendon.


I wish....a treadmill would be nice, too. And a unicorn!


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

NdAppy said:


> Not *one* person has given her any other ideas to try.
> 
> *Dang near* everyone that is riding her butt on this issue is after her she isn't training the way they want.


Woah woah woah! I suggested a bitless bridle, and I certainly did not say a single negative word about her or her horses. Lumping everyone into one category is not anymore helpful then ragging on the OP.

OP - This probably sounds a little "out there" and not correct, but what happens if you tighten her tie down? As it is, it seems completely ineffective, and she's doing that flippy nose thing that my Arab is absolutely notorious for - in a bit, she'll deliberately flip her nose in ANY bit to break my contact in an attempt to get her way (running). I found a well adjusted tie down like on your dun worked magic. You also seem to be using a sort of halter for your tie down, with it adjusted farther back? 

I apologize if you've already answered this, however a chiropractor told us that horses have a "trigger" spot on their neck that releases endorphins when they get their head high enough, hence why it's SO difficult to correct a high headed horse. I had the exact same problem with my mare's dam, and a well adjusted tie down or even German martingale made her bring her head down enough, she actually began to THINK instead of just freak out and try to run. Without it, I had that spinny witch almost run me into cars when she bolted uncontrollably down the road. A tie down was all it took to actually bring her head down and make her LOOK where she was going.

I know a lot of people are against that, but if you're satisfied with your barrel horse the way she is, it could be a way to simply get her calmer and thinking more. I am very concerned about the way she is with her leg injury - being spastic and not paying attention to where she's going could REALLY run risk of re-injury.


----------



## Allison Finch

tinyliny said:


> That is one of my favorite Youtube videos. The rider is out of this world skilled and the horse, well, is an amazing athlete.
> Please note that he is riding in a pretty strong shanked curb.


 
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I am truly sorry Spyder used this video as an example of good training and good practise. Check how many of this trainers horses are disemboweled under him. He trains them to die gallantly for the thrills of the crowd. Merlin, too, will probably die when he makes a move too slowly.

He gets no respect from me!!!


----------



## Allison Finch

kevinshorses said:


> Well you certainly seem to have it all figured out. Your horse should be performing great in no time at all. I'm sure there is no reason for you to start any more threads asking for help either since you have it all figured out. Good luck.


 
Ah, yes Kevin.....

I gave up offering true advise when she stated that a tom thumb and an argentine were totally different bits with no comparison. :lol:

Welcome to the club. I still read it, though. I just shake my head a lot.


----------



## equinesalways

> I still read it, though. I just shake my head a lot.


Me too, but I'm thinking of quitting; my neck hurts.


----------



## MHFoundation Quarters

Wow, fairly new member to HF and this thread is kinda ugly. Not that I don't agree with some of the comments, but I think most have lost focus on helping another horse person and it's a little out of control.

I have to disagree about the generalization of barrel horses. They don't all get hot, act nutty and prance around with their heads in the clouds. Not a valid excuse for bad behavior. I have a reining mare who you can run consistent 17s on and turn around and win a western pleasure class with...and as far as that goes she also rides english, jumps, trail rides, and is a showmanship machine. Our farrier has made her screw in cleats for her sliding plates so she can do it all. Never once has she required a tie down and never once has she acted hot going in or out of a speed class. I can run her and hand her over to my 5 yr old daughter when we walk out of the pen. Why is that? She was started SLOW, RIGHT and CONSISTENT. She is only allowed to go full tilt when it counts. If we work barrels at home (which is very rare) we WALK and TROT the pattern and focus on form and turns. 

I think this mare just needs to go back to the basics first and worry about pushing her for barrels later. I know you stated you don't like sidepulls, what about a half breed? Get the benefit of a bit and the nose pressure. Less pressure on her mouth, more on her nose to get her attention and give to pressure. Have you tried lunging her with side reins or draws? You could also try using an extra lunge line over the poll, thru rings on a snaffle, run between front legs and tie up over your saddle (don't snub her down too tight at first or it could get hairy) when she moves she will essentially be asking herself to give to the pressure, shorten in increments depending on how she responds.


----------



## Whisper22

I think most still show up to let their true troll colors shine through. I for one have learned quite a bit from the actual discussion part of this thread. It shows that not all horses are black and white.


----------



## kevinshorses

Whisper22 said:


> I think most still show up to let their true troll colors shine through. I for one have learned quite a bit from the actual discussion part of this thread. It shows that not all horses are black and white.


Good horsemanship works on ALL horses. Every single horse that is being ridden needs to have fundementals and when they are missing you get what the OP is getting. Ray Hunt said "You may have to do what you've never done to get what you've never gotten." The biggest problem with the OP is that she is unwilling to do this.


----------



## Whisper22

While that might be true, there are exceptions to every rule. Regardless it is the OP's decision to try or not try. It seems as though some are just showing up to bash the OP any cnace they get. That is quite ridiculous. Once you have given your advice you can either continue to have a civil discussion or move on. Any thing else makes you a troll.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

Allison Finch said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread, but I am truly sorry Spyder used this video as an example of good training and good practise. Check how many of this trainers horses are disemboweled under him. He trains them to die gallantly for the thrills of the crowd. Merlin, too, will probably die when he makes a move too slowly.
> 
> He gets no respect from me!!!


The purpose has nothing to do with the training. Perhaps we should discuss how many horses die valiantly on the cross country course or race track while we're judging? You don't have to respect him, it doesn't change the fact that the training itself on Merlin is brilliant which was the entire point.


----------



## bubba13

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Woah woah woah! I suggested a bitless bridle, and I certainly did not say a single negative word about her or her horses. Lumping everyone into one category is not anymore helpful then ragging on the OP.
> 
> OP - This probably sounds a little "out there" and not correct, but what happens if you tighten her tie down? As it is, it seems completely ineffective, and she's doing that flippy nose thing that my Arab is absolutely notorious for - in a bit, she'll deliberately flip her nose in ANY bit to break my contact in an attempt to get her way (running). I found a well adjusted tie down like on your dun worked magic. You also seem to be using a sort of halter for your tie down, with it adjusted farther back?
> 
> I apologize if you've already answered this, however a chiropractor told us that horses have a "trigger" spot on their neck that releases endorphins when they get their head high enough, hence why it's SO difficult to correct a high headed horse. I had the exact same problem with my mare's dam, and a well adjusted tie down or even German martingale made her bring her head down enough, she actually began to THINK instead of just freak out and try to run. Without it, I had that spinny witch almost run me into cars when she bolted uncontrollably down the road. A tie down was all it took to actually bring her head down and make her LOOK where she was going.
> 
> I know a lot of people are against that, but if you're satisfied with your barrel horse the way she is, it could be a way to simply get her calmer and thinking more. I am very concerned about the way she is with her leg injury - being spastic and not paying attention to where she's going could REALLY run risk of re-injury.


Tightening the tie-down, she seems to duck her head to evade it. That's why I initially didn't use one on her. It is certainly a thought to try again, though.

I really don't believe the tie-down is a problem, as it's so loose she can't touch it unless her head is raised to its maximum level (some people think she's reaching for it; I disagree--she's done her head like that since long before I ever put a tie-down on her). It's not a rope halter, it's one of these:










with the nose wrapped in rubber and without the top part splitting the ears.

By the way, for everyone else, and I'll bold it to emphasize: *A vet looked at Bones today, checked her for back soreness, and could not find any signs of a problem.*


----------



## bubba13

Allison Finch said:


> Ah, yes Kevin.....
> 
> I gave up offering true advise when she stated that a tom thumb and an argentine were totally different bits with no comparison. :lol:
> 
> Welcome to the club. I still read it, though. I just shake my head a lot.





equinesalways said:


> Me too, but I'm thinking of quitting; my neck hurts.


I suggest the pair of you do a little more research on bit action and mechanics, then. Particularly before advising anyone else on bit choice or accusing people of being closed-minded.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

Have you tried any martingales? 

Long story short, my mare's dam came to me when I was 14 years old, neglected, abused and emaciated. She gave birth to my mare a month after we got her, gained some weight, and I started riding her. Needless to say, I didn't have a whole heckuva lotta clue what I was doing. Any time you stuck your foot in the stirrup, she'd simply fling her head as high as she could, and bolt. I'd hang on for dear life, desperately trying to steer her away from cars (I only had a gravel road to ride on) until she tired out enough several miles later to wrench her to a halt. I finally put a tie down on her which gave me SOME control, along with a tom thumb bit. 

However, we went to a clinic once, and the instructor had me put a German martingale on her. It worked WONDERS. Draw reins will pretty much work the same way, but basically really encourage that head down and to flex a bit so she's not flipping her nose around to evade in an attempt to bolt. She looks EXACTLY like what my mare's dam used to do because all she wanted to do was run.

I can post pics in a bit, but right now Photobucket has decided to be a completely worthless pile of dog crap as per usual, so let's wait until I smash my computer from continually freezing.


----------



## bubba13

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> Wow, fairly new member to HF and this thread is kinda ugly. Not that I don't agree with some of the comments, but I think most have lost focus on helping another horse person and it's a little out of control.
> 
> I have to disagree about the generalization of barrel horses. They don't all get hot, act nutty and prance around with their heads in the clouds. Not a valid excuse for bad behavior. I have a reining mare who you can run consistent 17s on and turn around and win a western pleasure class with...and as far as that goes she also rides english, jumps, trail rides, and is a showmanship machine. Our farrier has made her screw in cleats for her sliding plates so she can do it all. Never once has she required a tie down and never once has she acted hot going in or out of a speed class. I can run her and hand her over to my 5 yr old daughter when we walk out of the pen. Why is that? She was started SLOW, RIGHT and CONSISTENT. She is only allowed to go full tilt when it counts. If we work barrels at home (which is very rare) we WALK and TROT the pattern and focus on form and turns.
> 
> I think this mare just needs to go back to the basics first and worry about pushing her for barrels later. I know you stated you don't like sidepulls, what about a half breed? Get the benefit of a bit and the nose pressure. Less pressure on her mouth, more on her nose to get her attention and give to pressure. Have you tried lunging her with side reins or draws? You could also try using an extra lunge line over the poll, thru rings on a snaffle, run between front legs and tie up over your saddle (don't snub her down too tight at first or it could get hairy) when she moves she will essentially be asking herself to give to the pressure, shorten in increments depending on how she responds.


I think the vast majority of good (highly competitive, professional) barrel horses are very hot. No, that doesn't excuse bad behavior or lack of brokeness, but most aren't the type that can be passed over to a kid just like that. Kudos to you if yours can. But at the same time, you mention 17-seconds without saying what size pattern, and that makes a big difference. If is a huge pattern and a 1D horse, then wow. If it's a little 13-second pattern, or we're talking a 4D horse still, it's still commendable and shows a nice, broke, all-around horse, but it's a rather different scenario. I hope you understand what I'm saying.

But at the same time, the way you say you work and started your horse--slowly, with minimal practice and no running at home--same here. Only idiots run their horses all the time, but unfortunately, there are a lot of them in the barrel racing world.

As for tying her head down, sure, I could do that, but that would only teach her evasion and false headset. She could still string out and hollow her back even if her head was at a lower level. And giving her conformation and movement anyway, she's not really meant to have a WP headset. If I could keep her head exactly where it is, or wherever she wants to put it, but get her to use herself better, I'd certainly be happy with that result.


----------



## bubba13

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Have you tried any martingales?
> 
> Long story short, my mare's dam came to me when I was 14 years old, neglected, abused and emaciated. She gave birth to my mare a month after we got her, gained some weight, and I started riding her. Needless to say, I didn't have a whole heckuva lotta clue what I was doing. Any time you stuck your foot in the stirrup, she'd simply fling her head as high as she could, and bolt. I'd hang on for dear life, desperately trying to steer her away from cars (I only had a gravel road to ride on) until she tired out enough several miles later to wrench her to a halt. I finally put a tie down on her which gave me SOME control, along with a tom thumb bit.
> 
> However, we went to a clinic once, and the instructor had me put a German martingale on her. It worked WONDERS. Draw reins will pretty much work the same way, but basically really encourage that head down and to flex a bit so she's not flipping her nose around to evade in an attempt to bolt. She looks EXACTLY like what my mare's dam used to do because all she wanted to do was run.
> 
> I can post pics in a bit, but right now Photobucket has decided to be a completely worthless pile of dog crap as per usual, so let's wait until I smash my computer from continually freezing.


 Unfortunately, due to improper use of a training fork when I was under the direction of a trainer, she knows how to use the martingale to duck her head and evade the bit entirely. Quite frankly, though, as I said in the post directly above, I'm far less concerned about her headset than her full body collection. But thank you for all of your suggestions!


----------



## Allison Finch

Whisper22 said:


> While that might be true, there are exceptions to every rule. Regardless it is the OP's decision to try or not try. It seems as though some are just showing up to bash the OP any cnace they get. That is quite ridiculous. Once you have given your advice you can either continue to have a civil discussion or move on. Any thing else makes you a troll.


Now see, here is the problem. The OP originally started all of this by showing a video of her riding a very lame horse in a borderline abusive manner, claiming that she was teaching a QH how to "speed rack". Then she asked for a critique about it. She sure got some critiques....

Then she came here on this thread asking, again, for a critique. You simply should not ask to be critiqued if you refuse to absorb what is being said. Many excellent horsefolk have offered insightful suggestions, all of which have fallen onto unwilling and defensive ears. What you are now seeing is the ongoing frustration.


----------



## Elana

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> Wow, fairly new member to HF and this thread is kinda ugly. Not that I don't agree with some of the comments, but I think most have lost focus on helping another horse person and it's a little out of control.
> 
> I have to disagree about the generalization of barrel horses. They don't all get hot, act nutty and prance around with their heads in the clouds. Not a valid excuse for bad behavior. I have a reining mare who you can run consistent 17s on and turn around and win a western pleasure class with...and as far as that goes she also rides english, jumps, trail rides, and is a showmanship machine. Our farrier has made her screw in cleats for her sliding plates so she can do it all. Never once has she required a tie down and never once has she acted hot going in or out of a speed class. I can run her and hand her over to my 5 yr old daughter when we walk out of the pen. Why is that? She was started SLOW, RIGHT and CONSISTENT. She is only allowed to go full tilt when it counts. If we work barrels at home (which is very rare) we WALK and TROT the pattern and focus on form and turns.
> 
> *I think this mare just needs to go back to the basics first and worry about pushing her for barrels later. *I know you stated you don't like sidepulls, what about a half breed? Get the benefit of a bit and the nose pressure. Less pressure on her mouth, more on her nose to get her attention and give to pressure. Have you tried lunging her with side reins or draws? You could also try using an extra lunge line over the poll, thru rings on a snaffle, run between front legs and tie up over your saddle (don't snub her down too tight at first or it could get hairy) when she moves she will essentially be asking herself to give to the pressure, shorten in increments depending on how she responds.


Read the emphasis. This keeps being said in this thread. The OP keeps ignoring it, much to the detriment of the mare. 

I suspect the reason is that going back to the foundation and rebuilding it takes time and she finds it 'boring.' <shrug> 

I think what the OP *really wants* is what I see a lot in other training forums. *You want a magic answer that cures everything*. I call it Elana's Magic Training Dust. You can buy it for $19.95 a bag and just sprinkle it over your horse and they will cease all undesired behaviors. If you call right now we will send you TWO bags and throw in the magic sprinkle can so you can more evenly distribute the product on your horse for better results!!! Hurry!!! Quantities Limited!!!

Or.. better yet... send me your mare and then you will be shed of "this thing."


----------



## bsms

Elana said:


> ...Elana's Magic Training Dust. You can buy it for $19.95 a bag and just sprinkle it over your horse and they will cease all undesired behaviors. If you call right now we will send you TWO bags and throw in the magic sprinkle can so you can more evenly distribute the product on your horse for better results!!!...


About a week ago, my mare decided there was something scary about dismounts and started jumping sideways. I did 5 dismounts over a 45 min period and she just got more worked up. After a week off, I rode her a couple of days ago. Calm and quiet mounting, calm and quiet riding, but when I started a dismount she bolted.

I was planning on doing some ground work today with her - my wrist is too sore from my landing on it for me to ride her - and then do some long rides and try to desensitize her to dismounts. I was going to start with slow mounts and try to get her used to my weight on that side and thus (hopefully) reassure her that it isn't scary.

But reading your post, I was wondering...can you just rush me some of Elana's Magic Training Dust? I've responded quickly, so I'd like it with the magic sprinkle...that will be much easier than spending the next week or two trying to convince her it isn't scary. Less chance of getting hurt, too! Just PM me, and I'll send you the money....


----------



## Whisper22

Allison Finch said:


> Now see, here is the problem. The OP originally started all of this by showing a video of her riding a very lame horse in a borderline abusive manner, claiming that she was teaching a QH how to "speed rack". Then she asked for a critique about it. She sure got some critiques....
> 
> Then she came here on this thread asking, again, for a critique. You simply should not ask to be critiqued if you refuse to absorb what is being said. Many excellent horsefolk have offered insightful suggestions, all of which have fallen onto unwilling and defensive ears. What you are now seeing is the ongoing frustration.


What I see is the OP commenting on almost every post, proving to me that she takes into consideration every opinion and piece of advice given. I think it's sad that's just simply not good enough for you people. The frustration is from peoples advice not being taken as gospel. There have been several posts with the opinion that the horse and rider don't look that bad at all. My point is to grow up and move on instead of attacking someone over and over again because at this point what is going to happen is going to happen and being a jerk isn't going to change the OP's mind. I might add that the OP has handled all the criticism extremely well.


----------



## natisha

bsms said:


> About a week ago, my mare decided there was something scary about dismounts and started jumping sideways. I did 5 dismounts over a 45 min period and she just got more worked up. After a week off, I rode her a couple of days ago. Calm and quiet mounting, calm and quiet riding, but when I started a dismount she bolted.
> 
> I was planning on doing some ground work today with her - my wrist is too sore from my landing on it for me to ride her - and then do some long rides and try to desensitize her to dismounts. I was going to start with slow mounts and try to get her used to my weight on that side and thus (hopefully) reassure her that it isn't scary.
> 
> But reading your post, I was wondering...can you just rush me some of Elana's Magic Training Dust? I've responded quickly, so I'd like it with the magic sprinkle...that will be much easier than spending the next week or two trying to convince her it isn't scary. Less chance of getting hurt, too! Just PM me, and I'll send you the money....


Off topic but I had to redo a horse who did the same thing your horse is doing. The horse was very green & the owner dismounted too close to a wall & his noisy jacket spooked the horse. That's all it took.
I did it bareback, slowly laying across the back before sliding down. Much easier to do without a saddle. Hope that helps.


----------



## bubba13

Allison Finch said:


> Now see, here is the problem. The OP originally started all of this by showing a video of her riding a very lame horse in a borderline abusive manner, claiming that she was teaching a QH how to "speed rack". Then she asked for a critique about it. She sure got some critiques....
> 
> Then she came here on this thread asking, again, for a critique. You simply should not ask to be critiqued if you refuse to absorb what is being said. Many excellent horsefolk have offered insightful suggestions, all of which have fallen onto unwilling and defensive ears. What you are now seeing is the ongoing frustration.


Sure is fun to throw those words around, isn't it? "Very lame," "abusive," LOL ain't it funny? See, where I come from, if you're going to say something, you **** sure better have evidence to back it up. Just like your totally unsubstantiated claims that Argentine snaffles and Tom Thumbs act the same (they don't), now my horse is in pain (she's not). Unless you'd like to contradict the multiple vets who have gone over here with a fine-toothed come, meticulously checking her for any signs of problems, all because I refuse to hurt a horse. Most recent vet visit? Yesterday. For hind leg and belly swelling that I noticed Wednesday evening and immediately placed a call in for. The vet couldn't find any real issue, suspects a kick with residual, gravity-drawn edema, declared the horse (again) sound, checked her back for non-existent soreness, and as she's said many times before, told me she wants to come back as one of my horses after she dies. And then had me come over and put another training session on her Quarab mare (riding in an O-ring snaffle bit, no less!). The horror of it all, right?



Elana said:


> Read the emphasis. This keeps being said in this thread. The OP keeps ignoring it, much to the detriment of the mare.
> 
> I suspect the reason is that going back to the foundation and rebuilding it takes time and she finds it 'boring.' <shrug>
> 
> I think what the OP *really wants* is what I see a lot in other training forums. *You want a magic answer that cures everything*. I call it Elana's Magic Training Dust. You can buy it for $19.95 a bag and just sprinkle it over your horse and they will cease all undesired behaviors. If you call right now we will send you TWO bags and throw in the magic sprinkle can so you can more evenly distribute the product on your horse for better results!!! Hurry!!! Quantities Limited!!!
> 
> Or.. better yet... send me your mare and then you will be shed of "this thing."


I really would love to see some of ya'll ride this horse. I bet it would be interesting, all right. Everyone thinks their horse is "special" and "different" and "unique," I know, but nonetheless, this could be quite the entertaining spectacle. Thing is, when you couldn't immediately fix her and have her riding right (and everyone says it would take time to go back to basics), whose fault would it be? According to multiple other posts, it would be yours, not mine and not hers. Because the rider is always to blame and always the sole source of the horse's issues. Well huh.

My horse's detriment. How, exactly, is any of this to her detriment? I could ride her bareback and sideways while cracking a bullwhip and keeping her at a flat gallop all of the time, and so long as I wasn't causing her pain or trying to market her as anything other than a circus nut, none of that would be to her detriment.

I remember making a conscious decision early in Bones' training to never expressly force her head down to "level" after watching her movement and conformation. I actually have no issue with the height of her head, wherever she wishes to place it. The problem we've run into, of course, is the hollowing of the back and absence of collection there. That's a very common issue among horses of all disciplines, unfortunately, and while everyone's an expert on how _not_ to ride, few people actually seem to know how to fix it (yes, they have no problem shouting their beliefs at every available opportunity, and while it sounds quite good, there's a considerable disconnect between theory and practice). This phenomenon is true in a whole lot more than just horse training.

Ultimately, does it _matter_ how you, or I, or anyone rides? Getting into some deep philosophy here.







If I or you or we are claiming to be professional trainers and advising other people, yes. If we're competing at a subjective discipline, yes. If we're practicing something that resembles abuse or cruel treatment, yes.

Otherwise, I'm going to lay down a vehement "no," with perhaps a few more exceptions I haven't considered. Seriously people. 

I don't want any sort of magic answer. I am, however, on a very real and unavoidable timeline. It's true I don't have time. I don't. Maybe I should drop out of school, quit my job, and swear to the heavens to make the day longer. This is my last chance, my last season, my last year ever to barrel race. After this year, my horse will be retired and I'll be essentially horseless for awhile. Pardon me for wanting to make the most of it, for saying that while it would be ideal to have months to spare to go work on just plain riding, I can't have both. This is my last shot to have fun, to have a chance to win, probably in my life. So long as my horse is not physically hurting I intend to do just that. And I'm far more concerned about having a good barrel horse (which I do currently have) than a good trail horse. She has a good enough grasp of the fundamentals to win a race, and honestly, for this horse and in this situation, that is absolutely enough for me.



Whisper22 said:


> What I see is the OP commenting on almost every post, proving to me that she takes into consideration every opinion and piece of advice given. I think it's sad that's just simply not good enough for you people. The frustration is from peoples advice not being taken as gospel. There have been several posts with the opinion that the horse and rider don't look that bad at all. My point is to grow up and move on instead of attacking someone over and over again because at this point what is going to happen is going to happen and being a jerk isn't going to change the OP's mind. I might add that the OP has handled all the criticism extremely well.


:wink:


----------



## bubba13

bsms said:


> About a week ago, my mare decided there was something scary about dismounts and started jumping sideways. I did 5 dismounts over a 45 min period and she just got more worked up. After a week off, I rode her a couple of days ago. Calm and quiet mounting, calm and quiet riding, but when I started a dismount she bolted.
> 
> I was planning on doing some ground work today with her - my wrist is too sore from my landing on it for me to ride her - and then do some long rides and try to desensitize her to dismounts. I was going to start with slow mounts and try to get her used to my weight on that side and thus (hopefully) reassure her that it isn't scary.
> 
> But reading your post, I was wondering...can you just rush me some of Elana's Magic Training Dust? I've responded quickly, so I'd like it with the magic sprinkle...that will be much easier than spending the next week or two trying to convince her it isn't scary. Less chance of getting hurt, too! Just PM me, and I'll send you the money....


What I find helpful is bringing the horse's nose tipped slightly in while mounting and dismounting. That limits the likelihood of a dangerous blow up. Every time you shift your weight and the horse starts to move off, sit perfectly still in that position until the horse again is motionless. Repeat in tiny increments. Remain calm. Of course be sure to kick free of your left stirrup as soon as you are able for safety reasons--don't want to get hung up! Talk to your horse, say whoa, light tipped in rein pressure, don't rush.


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## Elana

> I am, however, on a very real and unavoidable timeline. It's true I don't have time. I don't. Maybe I should drop out of school, quit my job, and swear to the heavens to make the day longer. This is my last chance, my last season, my last year ever to barrel race. After this year, my horse will be retired and I'll be essentially horseless for awhile. Pardon me for wanting to make the most of it, for saying that while it would be ideal to have months to spare to go work on just plain riding, I can't have both. This is my last shot to have fun, to have a chance to win, probably in my life.


You have answered EVERY question I had about this with this statement. 

Your horse needs time.. maybe a year off.. to get her foundation re-established. You don't have that time if you are focused on competition. You DO want a magic bullet here to fix this. 

Time is what will fix it. Your frantic riding of her and your comments about her totally said you will not take the time because you have your time line to meet. Maybe you are going off to college. Maybe you are going to graduate college and now have to work. I don't know. 

I DO know this. When you are working with animals (and I have worked with a few species) YOUR timeline is often NOT the same as the animal's time line. 

From what I have seen of this mare and your riding and your comments, what you want and what your horse needs are diametrically opposed. The issue comes with your inability to not realize you cannot fit the time the horse needs into the time you have. 

If you want fun this summer.. your last 'ever' as you say (and unless you are going off to die you do not know about the absolute of this).. you need to do it with a different animal. This one needs time off of barrels and competition and time working on basics again. 

This is the truly wonderful thing about working with animals. They teach you things about life. They teach you that sometimes you cannot have what you want, and that, my friend, is a very valuable lesson. 

Please do not take your frustration over this out on the horse by doing things like false racking her. Instead, either replace the horse and have your fun or accept this as one of the most valuable lessons you will ever learn. 

You don't always get what you want.... you almost always get exactly what you need.

I am done.


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## bubba13

Care to tell me how my horse would be harmed by either barrel racing or sideways-bareback-bullwhip-galloping?

I had other horses. 

One ended up with a case of "navicular-like" symptoms that has baffled four vets and two farriers. Lacking other options, I did the responsible thing and retired him with the only pain management that has worked: daily bute. Even after knowing I would never ride him again, I tried multiple costly treatments to make him more comfortable. All of them failed.

One ended up with what we think was gastic cancer. Nothing could be done to save him. We pampered him in his final months and made the choice to humanely euthanize him when his quality of life began to suffer.

One lacks the talent to be a barrel horse. His mind was blown by a previous owner's roping and jacking around. The arena is too high pressure for him. This is the dun horse from the ponying video. Rather than further risk his mental health, he has been relegated to a back-up trail horse.

One has the talent but not the heart to be a barrel horse. She hates the pattern and refuses to work. The only way to get her to run and turn is to quite literally beat her. I'm not prepared to do that. She, too, is now just a general riding horse.

If my gray mare is winning at barrels, which she is, and staying sound, which I hope she will, and staying sane and happy, which she has in the past and I expect she will in the future, I see absolutely positively no reason not to compete and enjoy her.


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## Elana

bubba13 said:


> Care to tell me how my horse would be harmed by either barrel racing or sideways-bareback-bullwhip-galloping?
> 
> I had other horses.
> 
> One ended up with a case of "navicular-like" symptoms that has baffled four vets and two farriers. Lacking other options, I did the responsible thing and retired him with the only pain management that has worked: daily bute. Even after knowing I would never ride him again, I tried multiple costly treatments to make him more comfortable. All of them failed.
> 
> One ended up with what we think was gastic cancer. Nothing could be done to save him. We pampered him in his final months and made the choice to humanely euthanize him when his quality of life began to suffer.
> 
> One lacks the talent to be a barrel horse. His mind was blown by a previous owner's roping and jacking around. The arena is too high pressure for him. This is the dun horse from the ponying video. Rather than further risk his mental health, he has been relegated to a back-up trail horse.
> 
> One has the talent but not the heart to be a barrel horse. She hates the pattern and refuses to work. The only way to get her to run and turn is to quite literally beat her. I'm not prepared to do that. She, too, is now just a general riding horse.
> 
> If my gray mare is winning at barrels, which she is, and staying sound, which I hope she will, and staying sane and happy, which she has in the past and I expect she will in the future, I see absolutely positively no reason not to compete and enjoy her.


If she is doing all you want, then why did you post this thread? 

You asked advice. You got it. Over and over and over.. the mare needs time off and time doing foundation work... (gleaned from your own discussion and videos). You don't like that advice. You don't have TIME for that advice.

..and since she is doing all you want then what is your point in asking????


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## Equilove

I agree Elana... it seems this entire time any critique that was given was immediately countered by excuses. Like I said before, she was probably mostly looking for a "job well done". I myself don't understand the purpose of this thread, except to defend herself against her LAST thread, which was locked. She apparently doesn't think she's doing anything wrong with her horse, and isn't going to change anything, so we might as well stop trying to help. Who knows, maybe she really doesn't need to change anything, and maybe she ISN'T doing anything wrong. Which brings us back to the "what's the point of this thread" question.


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## Elana

I just don't like to see a horse abused under saddle. I spent several years of my young life fixing those horses and keeping them from the knacker. 

Things like this bother me a good bit:


> Care to tell me how my horse would be harmed by either barrel racing or sideways-bareback-bullwhip-galloping?


If the horse is high headed and hollow backed, the horse is more likely to hurt herself.. and is more likely to keep on hurting herself. The sideways bull whip gallop thing.. more abuse.. wear and tear on tendons, knees, hocks etc. and well outside of the business at hand which is barrel racing.

Working a horse doing a job or a competition is one thing. Working a horse in an abusive manner because of frustration, time constraints and lack of patience is altogether different. 

She calls the horse "this thing" and goes on at length about her unattractive disposition. 

It seems she just wants to use her up and cast her aside in retirement because SHE (human) can't ride barrels anymore due to whatever (the business of growing up perhaps).


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## bubba13

'Round and 'round and 'round we go, and where we'll stop, nobody knows!

The point of this thread was the fulfillment of a promise made in the other thread: To provide a video of a normal riding session and to further explain some unfortunately convoluted points I tried and failed to make, since apparently some people thought I was condoning craziness in barrel horses or something absurd like that.

I wasn't looking for "job well done." Heck, I know the first video, viewed without background, looks like an absolute trainwreck. I've actually gleaned some useful insights from the critique. Namely, sit the hell down and relax. Workin' on it, as I've said repeatedly.


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## Northern

bubba, when you ask for advice with horse training, it's presumed that you have the time, or you wouldn't ask.


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## bubba13

Elana said:


> I just don't like to see a horse abused under saddle. I spent several years of my young life fixing those horses and keeping them from the knacker.
> 
> Things like this bother me a good bit:
> 
> 
> If the horse is high headed and hollow backed, the horse is more likely to hurt herself.. and is more likely to keep on hurting herself. The sideways bull whip gallop thing.. more abuse.. wear and tear on tendons, knees, hocks etc. and well outside of the business at hand which is barrel racing.
> 
> Working a horse doing a job or a competition is one thing. Working a horse in an abusive manner because of frustration, time constraints and lack of patience is altogether different.
> 
> She calls the horse "this thing" and goes on at length about her unattractive disposition.
> 
> It seems she just wants to use her up and cast her aside in retirement because SHE (human) can't ride barrels anymore due to whatever (the business of growing up perhaps).


First off, I think we need to make a HUGE distinction between abuse and subpar riding. Any competitive athletic discipline puts a horse at risk. Horseracing does. Barrel racing does. Cutting, reining, jumping, eventing, yes even dressage, all do. They increase wear and tear on joints, leading to arthritis. They put strain on the joints and back. If that's abusive, then we all need to stop riding and showing horses, because any kind of action leads to wear and tear and accelerates aging.

There's a reason I always use protective boots. There's a reason my saddle is custom-made and professionally-fitted. There's a reason I only ride on flat ground and warm up beforehand. It's all to minimize risk.

When Bones has gotten hurt, it's always been in the pasture playing, never running barrels or riding, so there goes that theory. She uses herself just as hard or even harder than I use her.

Barring unanticipated family catastrophe, Bones will not ever be sold, though I don't doubt I could get $10,000+ for her from a barrel racer (I hear the gasps at my delusion now, but I'm quite well in touch with the market and her competitive quality). Because of her past lameness issues, however, and because I'm rather fond of "this thing," I would never sell her. I'd sooner give her away to a trusted friend as a broodmare or something of that nature, but even at that, if I could afford to retire her after said family catastrophe, I would.

If I didn't care about her, if I wanted to just use her up, I'd bute the hell out of her every time she took a mis-step, and I'd crank her head down with whatever harsh bit it took to control her, and I'd already be running her now, rather than waiting for a vet's clearance and her to get in shape.

As I said, I could sell her now for a large sum (I could even be dishonest--I know she'd vet clean and I'd never have to mention her old weakened tendons, which may or may not cause potential problems). But I'm not and I won't. If that's not devotion to a horse--if that's not the essence of horsemanship, far beyond the question of riding skill--then I don't know what is.


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## bubba13

Northern said:


> bubba, when you ask for advice with horse training, it's presumed that you have the time, or you wouldn't ask.


Does anybody competitive, or anyone who goes to school/works, have time to give a horse a year off as many are suggesting, particularly when this horse has already had 12 of the past 24 months off with no riding whatsoever? It's not that I'm looking for an accelerated process. It's that I would like things I can incorporate into this time line to work alongside getting in shape, etc. I realize that we can't go completely back to basics in that matter. I don't _want_ to go completely back to basics, simply for the reasons that A) it's unrealistic in the time frame and B) as far as competition goes, with this particular horse and this particular scenario, I don't find ourselves to be hurt by any lacking.


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## Equilove

I wouldn't go as far to say she is abusing her horse. I've seen much worse riding done that causes much more damage. Frankly, what she's doing isn't THAT bad, and I saw some videos of the horse barrel racing, and that horse can cut a barrel hardly any contact on her mouth. Of course when we slow down a barrel horse and see how it responds to someone asking it to go SLOW for once, or to COLLECT, it often looks like the horse and rider have everything wrong. Sure, we may think the horse needs a better foundation and could use some tweaks, but it may or may not effect how it does its job (barrel racing). I guess when it comes down to it, Bubba knows this horse, we don't (which begs the question WHY was this posted here to begin with).

Bubba, if all you wanted was to defend the other video and not really get any critique, you should have posted the video on the "Horse Videos" subforum. It would have left aside the obligation to tear apart and CRITIQUE the video, and offer advice, which you are clearly not willing to take and you are only defending yourself against what we see as "wrong".

Honestly, the entire tone of this thread from Bubba's part was defensive, defensive, defensive.


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## corinowalk

And I ask again, how would you feel if someone was calling you abusive to an animal that you love? 

While I realize that this video was posted in the critique section, you are to critique the video. All that I have seen is people passing judgment on a poster that they don't know. Add in to that, I haven't seen one other competitive barrel racer in on this conversation. 

I ride western and used to be moderately competitive in speed events. While all horses need the basics, this mare is much past the basics.


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## Whisper22

Equilove said:


> I wouldn't go as far to say she is abusing her horse. I've seen much worse riding done that causes much more damage. Frankly, what she's doing isn't THAT bad, and I saw some videos of the horse barrel racing, and that horse can cut a barrel hardly any contact on her mouth. Of course when we slow down a barrel horse and see how it responds to someone asking it to go SLOW for once, or to COLLECT, it often looks like the horse and rider have everything wrong. Sure, we may think the horse needs a better foundation and could use some tweaks, but it may or may not effect how it does its job (barrel racing). I guess when it comes down to it, Bubba knows this horse, we don't (which begs the question WHY was this posted here to begin with).
> 
> Bubba, if all you wanted was to defend the other video and not really get any critique, you should have posted the video on the "Horse Videos" subforum. It would have left aside the obligation to tear apart and CRITIQUE the video, and offer advice, which you are clearly not willing to take and you are only defending yourself against what we see as "wrong".
> 
> Honestly, the entire tone of this thread from Bubba's part was defensive, defensive, defensive.


Exactly, to the first part. 
And she has clearly stated and I will quote from one of her more recent posts "It's that I would like things I can incorporate into this time line to work alongside getting in shape, etc. I realize that we can't go completely back to basics in that matter. I don't _want_ to go completely back to basics, simply for the reasons that A) it's unrealistic in the time frame and B) as far as competition goes, with this particular horse and this particular scenario, I don't find ourselves to be hurt by any lacking.
She wants to barrel race with a horse that is perfectly capable of barrel racing. She wants advice on how to get her horse is shape for barrel racing as she has been off for more than a year. 
Why is this so complicated. If your advice is for anything other than getting her horse in shape for barrel racing after taking some time off why are you getting so worked up over her not taking it?
At this point she has every right to be defensive


----------



## kitten_Val

corinowalk said:


> Add in to that, I haven't seen one other competitive barrel racer in on this conversation.


I wonder why............ :think:

bubba, personally I don't quite understand the whole "it's my last chance" thing. Sorry. If you _*truly want *_to retrain a horse you gotta find time (to start over very slowly). Yes, it'll take time, may be lots of time. If you don't really care and just want to race just do it - its your horse and your decision in the end. BTW, I don't find it to be abuse as long as horse is in good health and not exhausted with work, I just find the threads about "magical Elane's dust" to be pretty useless generally  .

BTW, barrel racing is quite popular here (I know at least 3 places having competitions April - Oct). I watched several out of interest and I have to say from what I've seen barrel horse != hot horse. Many of them are very fast, aiming for win, still nicely behaving and looking happy and calm.


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## Equilove

Whisper22 said:


> Exactly, to the first part.
> And she has clearly stated and I will quote from one of her more recent posts "It's that I would like things I can incorporate into this time line to work alongside getting in shape, etc. I realize that we can't go completely back to basics in that matter. I don't _want_ to go completely back to basics, simply for the reasons that A) it's unrealistic in the time frame and B) as far as competition goes, with this particular horse and this particular scenario, I don't find ourselves to be hurt by any lacking.
> She wants to barrel race with a horse that is perfectly capable of barrel racing. She wants advice on how to get her horse is shape for barrel racing as she has been off for more than a year.
> Why is this so complicated. If your advice is for anything other than getting her horse in shape for barrel racing after taking some time off why are you getting so worked up over her not taking it?
> At this point she has every right to be defensive


If you refer to the original post, it was never made clear that she wanted advice on what you mentioned. It was only clear that she was attempting to remedy a thread that spiraled out of control by "defending" herself with this one. That's when people started critiquing her video, and that's when things got dirty. It wasn't till later she mentioned wanting advice for getting her horse in shape after time off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj

Quote frankly, this horse looks completely happy when she's barrel racing. She's **** good at it, she's quick and cagey, and I understand where the OP is coming from.

As much as we like to live in a perfect world, a lot of barrel racers end up like this. Hell, the horses winning events like Calgary Stampede are like this. No, that doesn't make it right, but when you're raised with a "barrel racer barrel races and nothing else" it's hard to realize when your horse is becoming so focused that she has no patience for anything else.

I really don't think the OP has every REALLY asked "how do I completely re-train my mare to be a perfectly collected horse?" I think everyone took it upon themselves to assume she was asking for us to impart our imperial wisdom on her because maybe OUR horses don't behave like that.

Honestly, if it's the last year, and the mare enjoys barrel racing, and is happy and comfortable doing it, with only a little sketchiness during normal warm up, do what you can to make her happy and comfortable! She'll be enjoying a nice long retirement after this.

"Abusive" is a stretch. A LONG stretch. She's annoyed and ****y at being made to walk or work "normally". I'd much rather see a horse in THIS girl's hands, then in HALF the people who own horses and don't have a clue about how to feed, how to call a vet, how to take care of their feet.

Good luck with her this year, hope you guys blow 'em away.


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## Whisper22

Equilove said:


> If you refer to the original post, it was never made clear that she wanted advice on what you mentioned. It was only clear that she was attempting to remedy a thread that spiraled out of control by "defending" herself with this one. That's when people started critiquing her video, and that's when things got dirty. It wasn't till later she mentioned wanting advice for getting her horse in shape after time off.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Obviously she didn't know what the first thread was going to turn into and maybe what she wanted to know wasn't translating at first but up until this point it has been stated several times yet the bashing continues. There is a fine line between explaining yourself and defending yourself, both of which I see no problem in doing. If you gave advice to someone yet it didn't fit their situation, would you rather that person lie to you so that YOU feel better or would you want them to further explain the situation. Maybe it's just me but I think the answer is obvious.


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## New_image

After nosing threw the first thread when it just started and reading on and off on this thread I'd like to offer a critique regarding both videos. Back to the original post assuming you're open to a riding critique given the location of this thread? 

As a barrel racer myself, I've watched the video of your mare running patterns and aside from her repeated sudden jaunt to the right at the last barrel before going around, the two of you look nice. I dare say good!

This said both horse and rider appear to have common barrel horse syndrome flaws outside of the speed ring. Common being my key word!

I regularly practice dressage and bareback bridle less riding with ALL of my speed horses to give them a very wide variety to learn from. In my mind speed horses tend to be more hot because the riders tend to be more... daring? We run more, we reprimand less, a jog and a head toss on a trail ride are considered "fun" not so much considered "ill behaved". However some softening of your mare and a different riding style will improve her times over the long run. Some of my barrel horses have been anyone can ride softies that could quietly do a dressage pattern with barrels set up in the arena. Some can only do this with me in the saddle but NONE are "just barrel horses" or allowed to use my need for speed as an excuse to be un-soft. 

If I were to offer you advice I'd say ride bareback with a halter for a while. Teach her to respond to a light touch, over exaggerate you're body language - flex her with the ultimate goal of having her slow down a bit, become soft with a two finger pull to a halter and get her to look happy. Happy horses preform better. Happy riders create happy horses, so bluff for all you are worth a smile while riding that horse!

The first video you posted was neither a nice fast trot nor any sort of speed racking. It was simply the mare trotting fast and choppy with one half step of canter thrown in because she was either grumpy or confused at what she was being asked. Teach her to use her ability to do that nice long trot with her head low. I would suggest a "wonder bit" gag bit for this mare, I think you'd find she'll respond with her head in a more comfortable place if you'd switch the bit (after trying simply with a halter for a while). 
NOW I KNOW you have mentioned that she couldn't possibly have been confused because you weren't asking her to do anything, I can see in the video enough to disagree but if you weren't aware of your body language, she was, and this was the result. I do not see some of the "flaws" you have pointed out about yourself (but glad to see someone willing to pick on themselves!) I would however like to see you asking lighter and using body language. I'd also like to see outside of barrels the mare being offered a little more head


----------



## churumbeque

bubba13 said:


> JustDressageIt:
> 
> Did you notice the clip at the end where I back up up with the reins dropped onto her withers and using only my legs? That was sort of my point. She was being resentful of both leg and and rein earlier in the video and fighting the back-up, so I added the last bit to clarify that she actually does understand the command when she's not being a butt.
> 
> As a Western rider, I respectfully disagree about the proper use of curb vs. snaffle bits. An Argentine snaffle (a misnomer, I know) can be effectively ridden with either one or two hands. It has a broken mouthpiece and independent side action for lateral control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a well-designed, well-balanced, and mild curb bit. Coupled with a flat double-up curb chain, it allows for support of the horse's head, good lateral control, and either neck or direct reining. It's a very versatile bit generally used to transition young horses from the snaffle into the grazing curb.
> 
> A snaffle does not provide the security of light curb support that my mare has come to expect, nor is it necessarily (or even ever) a "gentler" bit. Its direct-line action is not conducive to neck reining, and the fact that a snaffle is either "on" or "off" makes it less complex and and with less finesse than a curb, which allows varying degrees of pressure and action to be applied. A curb gives a warning with shank rotation and rein-jingling before a cue is applied; a snaffle does not.
> 
> My experience over the years with horses who have become accustomed to curb bits--no matter how soft the hands of their riders--is that they will not tolerate snaffles. They hate the direct pull action and much prefer the subtle lift of a curb. They'll gape their mouths and brace their necks but immediately relax when the curb is returned. I personally have a mare who rides wonderfully in a curb, in a halter, or with a bridleless neck rope, but who will flat out bolt and brace and fight with a snaffle, every time.


Have not read though all the posts but I agree that the bit is not working, the horse is not happy about it and thought a mild d ring would be better for the contact you have.


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## TheGrassIsGreener

Dear OP, 
Leverage bits are double-reined in english disciplines so that you can have constant contact with the snaffle portion, and lighter/intermittent contact with the curb/leverage part.

Your seat, I think is pretty nice and your hands aren't that bad. The real tension and head tossing you are getting from this mare is the constant pressure on the leverage/curb of your bit. That bit is one you are supposed to drop contact with to reward the right response. This mare is getting no reward when she embraces the contact so then she fusses/ and tosses her head again. She is communicating with you and I see a horse that is very willing to try.

If you prefer to ride with constant contact I bet you'd get a lot better results from your mare (no more head tossing) with a snaffle bit/no curb. If she really needs the brakes you can try the Myler bits - many of those come with pretty solid 'brakes' in my experience. 

Best of luck.


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## gottatrot

corinowalk said:


> And I ask again, how would you feel if someone was calling you abusive to an animal that you love?


I would want to know in detail exactly what made people think the horse was unhappy/abused and do my best to correct it. I personally would not defend myself. If I thought I had a great explanation I would try to offer that, but would be interested to hear what people said. Then I would spend some time rethinking things to make sure I was not seeing things from a biased perspective or "blind spot." 

I also would love to have some of this magic dust. I wonder if it works on horses that I spent a lot of time with getting into shape and then had to take some time off. I sure wouldn't mind not worrying about if I had spent enough time doing slow conditioning work again before getting into hard work. We would all love it if our horses changed quickly to whatever new discipline we chose and got back in shape after injuries in time for us to compete again.

To the OP: You were asking about how to teach your horse collection without changing the way she carries her head. I would have to say it is impossible to do. She is bracing, hollow and she would have to be taught to stretch out over her topline in order to learn to collect and round up. The high neck carriage of a dressage horse is the end result, not the beginning. Horses have to start long and low first, then gradually the base of their neck elevates as the hind end strengthens and the horse learns to collect over time. I work with Arabs with very high natural head carriage. They have to be taught to work long and low before they can learn to collect. Don't worry, they can still pull their heads up as high as they want to do jumping and speed work. Their necks to take on a more attractive appearance overall though after working more correctly.


----------



## corinowalk

gottatrot said:


> . I work with Arabs with very high natural head carriage. They have to be taught to work long and low before they can learn to collect. Don't worry, they can still pull their heads up as high as they want to do jumping and speed work. Their necks to take on a more attractive appearance overall though after working more correctly.


So only arabs can have high head sets and collection at the same time? Learn something new every day! 

Oh and arabs are allowed to have high heads for speed work...but AQHA's aren't? I missed that in the rule book!

Is collection just for appearance? That sure is the way you make it sound!


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## apachewhitesox

corinowalk said:


> So only arabs can have high head sets and collection at the same time? Learn something new every day!
> 
> Oh and arabs are allowed to have high heads for speed work...but AQHA's aren't? I missed that in the rule book!
> 
> Is collection just for appearance? That sure is the way you make it sound!


 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think gottatrot was actually saying their horses can collect and can have their heads high when being ridden but not physically at the same time. I don't think they meant only arabs can do it just they have worked with arabs so they have worked with horses that hold their heads high like it was just an example. I think when they said it makes them look good it was meant to mean like an added bonus of the horse looking great. I could be wrong though thats just how I took it.


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## corinowalk

This mares conformation leads to a high head carriage. Naturally. Though she is not an arab. I would just like to know why arabs are allowed to do speed events with their noses in the air but AQHA's are not? Especially AQHA's that have conformation that leads to a higher headset.


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## apachewhitesox

Again I think it was meant that the horses can run in speed events with their heads up but they can collect up nicely outside of speed events. Also I still think the arabs were just an example not gottatrot saying only arabs can do it.


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## Kayty

Bubba13, I have not read this thread, only your first post from which I think you may benefit from having a good read of this: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/all-people-asking-critique-48441/

Please don't clog up critique threads if you're not actually going to take any advice and think that you're doing everything right anyway. The critique thread is not here to blow sunshine and rainbows up your backside.

Sorry if that sounds nasty and as I said, I haven't read all 23 pages of this thing, but from the first post, this is what I deduced.


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## Allison Finch

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Quote
> 
> 
> "Abusive" is a stretch. A LONG stretch. She's annoyed and ****y at being made to walk or work "normally".
> 
> G


My statement was *borderline* abusive, and I was referring to the original thread where she was trying to force her horse to "speed rack". It had nothing to do with the video at the beginning of this thread. 

This is a link to the locked thread;
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/what-do-you-think-horse-rider-79355/


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## bubba13

corinowalk said:


> ....I ride western and used to be moderately competitive in speed events. While all horses need the basics, this mare is much past the basics.


I'm curious what you meant by the last statement (I know you aren't attacking/accusing or anything, just wondered if you'd clarify?).



kitten_Val said:


> I wonder why............ :think:
> 
> bubba, personally I don't quite understand the whole "it's my last chance" thing. Sorry. If you _*truly want *_to retrain a horse you gotta find time (to start over very slowly). Yes, it'll take time, may be lots of time. If you don't really care and just want to race just do it - its your horse and your decision in the end. BTW, I don't find it to be abuse as long as horse is in good health and not exhausted with work, I just find the threads about "magical Elane's dust" to be pretty useless generally  .
> 
> BTW, barrel racing is quite popular here (I know at least 3 places having competitions April - Oct). I watched several out of interest and I have to say from what I've seen barrel horse != hot horse. Many of them are very fast, aiming for win, still nicely behaving and looking happy and calm.


I'll admit, I'm pretty envious when I see a horse who can go win a 1D time and come out and be a trail horse. My old navicular gelding was sort of like that. He certainly wasn't a beginner's horse (although I have since used him in a _very_ controlled setting for children's lessons), but you could go trail ride him all right. It's not just that barrel racing "makes horses crazy," per se, but what it does to specific personalities of horses, maybe. I think ol' gray is a hot horse by nature, but still mentally sound, if that makes sense. She's not the type to get blown up over barrels, like the more fragile-minded horses are, but she is the type to use any excuse to get hyper. She's always been extremely spooky and reactive, and I think doing speed events on her just compounds the issue on a horse like that. But after the fact, who knows, really? I will say that a _lot _of the barrel horses I've seen--even the slow, "loser" ones--are mentally shot. And that's just really sad. That all stems from people running them too hard, too soon. You'll have a slow 4D horse rearing in the alley and bolting with its owner while its repeatedly snatching in the face with a nine-inch mechanical hackamore. And they wonder why the horse is nuts....

Frankly, though, and I've been hesitant to post this here given the native animosity...but it's my last chance because I'll be applying to vet school soon, and I don't wish to sound cocky and jinx myself, but based on grades, experience, and recommendations, I think there is a very good chance I will get in. And thus put the "fun" part of my life on hold for quite some time, and sacrifice childish barrel racing for the slaving of a committed scientist devoted to ridding the world of equine ills....or something like that, anyway.



MacabreMikolaj said:


> Quote frankly, this horse looks completely happy when she's barrel racing. She's **** good at it, she's quick and cagey, and I understand where the OP is coming from.
> 
> As much as we like to live in a perfect world, a lot of barrel racers end up like this. Hell, the horses winning events like Calgary Stampede are like this. No, that doesn't make it right, but when you're raised with a "barrel racer barrel races and nothing else" it's hard to realize when your horse is becoming so focused that she has no patience for anything else.
> 
> I really don't think the OP has every REALLY asked "how do I completely re-train my mare to be a perfectly collected horse?" I think everyone took it upon themselves to assume she was asking for us to impart our imperial wisdom on her because maybe OUR horses don't behave like that.
> 
> Honestly, if it's the last year, and the mare enjoys barrel racing, and is happy and comfortable doing it, with only a little sketchiness during normal warm up, do what you can to make her happy and comfortable! She'll be enjoying a nice long retirement after this.
> 
> "Abusive" is a stretch. A LONG stretch. She's annoyed and ****y at being made to walk or work "normally". I'd much rather see a horse in THIS girl's hands, then in HALF the people who own horses and don't have a clue about how to feed, how to call a vet, how to take care of their feet.
> 
> Good luck with her this year, hope you guys blow 'em away.


Thank you very much. I never said that Crazy Gray and I are the ideal equitation pair. Wish we were. Probably not going to happen. I will continue to ride as best as I can, to push for excellence for both myself and the horse. I hope everyone does the same.


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## corinowalk

I meant that she is past the need for *just* the basics. She isn't a pull and kick trail riding buddy. She is a competitive athlete and I believe that you treat her like one. That is a good thing!


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## bubba13

New_image said:


> After nosing threw the first thread when it just started and reading on and off on this thread I'd like to offer a critique regarding both videos. Back to the original post assuming you're open to a riding critique given the location of this thread?
> 
> As a barrel racer myself, I've watched the video of your mare running patterns and aside from her repeated sudden jaunt to the right at the last barrel before going around, the two of you look nice. I dare say good!
> 
> This said both horse and rider appear to have common barrel horse syndrome flaws outside of the speed ring. Common being my key word!
> 
> I regularly practice dressage and bareback bridle less riding with ALL of my speed horses to give them a very wide variety to learn from. In my mind speed horses tend to be more hot because the riders tend to be more... daring? We run more, we reprimand less, a jog and a head toss on a trail ride are considered "fun" not so much considered "ill behaved". However some softening of your mare and a different riding style will improve her times over the long run. Some of my barrel horses have been anyone can ride softies that could quietly do a dressage pattern with barrels set up in the arena. Some can only do this with me in the saddle but NONE are "just barrel horses" or allowed to use my need for speed as an excuse to be un-soft.
> 
> If I were to offer you advice I'd say ride bareback with a halter for a while. Teach her to respond to a light touch, over exaggerate you're body language - flex her with the ultimate goal of having her slow down a bit, become soft with a two finger pull to a halter and get her to look happy. Happy horses preform better. Happy riders create happy horses, so bluff for all you are worth a smile while riding that horse!
> 
> The first video you posted was neither a nice fast trot nor any sort of speed racking. It was simply the mare trotting fast and choppy with one half step of canter thrown in because she was either grumpy or confused at what she was being asked. Teach her to use her ability to do that nice long trot with her head low. I would suggest a "wonder bit" gag bit for this mare, I think you'd find she'll respond with her head in a more comfortable place if you'd switch the bit (after trying simply with a halter for a while).
> NOW I KNOW you have mentioned that she couldn't possibly have been confused because you weren't asking her to do anything, I can see in the video enough to disagree but if you weren't aware of your body language, she was, and this was the result. I do not see some of the "flaws" you have pointed out about yourself (but glad to see someone willing to pick on themselves!) I would however like to see you asking lighter and using body language. I'd also like to see outside of barrels the mare being offered a little more head


Guilty as charged, most likely, and thanks for the critique!

You're right, I need to find some other things to do with her. Just pasture riding isn't cutting it. I'm hoping to take her to an indoor arena/ barrel practice next week, so while it's still barrels, it'll be in a different venue and she hasn't seen the pattern since August, so it will be something different for her. I'd like to get her on cattle some, but finding time to go to the weekend team sortings is a problem. I've only done a tiny bit of cattle work on her (since I'm certainly no roper or cutter)--she wants to eat the cattle. Funny, because she doesn't have a lick of cow sense, but she sure gets overzealous chasing things!

Riding bareback in a halter some I can do. I do it on my other horses but I guess, embarrassingly, I'm still just a bit scared of her because of her propensity to spook and try to turn out from underneath me. I occasionally ride her bareback, occasionally in a halter, but seldom both at the same time. A point that you didn't mention (but perhaps thought of) is that my body at least tends to relax and move more in rhythm with the horse when riding bareback. Hmmmm....

I rode her today--took off the tie-down for a feel of how she'd be, and regretted it when she kept flipping her head higher and higher trying to get over the bit to run off. Not that I couldn't still control her without issue, but she was wanting to pull her head away from me. I was using my neat-o handmade Myler ported "gag" bit, too, not the Argentine. She was pretty worked up, but we can chalk some of that up to the fact that it was raining (and she was not amused to be getting wet). Anyway, I don't know what sort of point this makes, but towards the end of the ride I asked her to sidepass. She was doing it beautifully, crossing over nicely, moving perfectly sideways, with me just cueing by lightly tipping her nose and putting my calf into her. But even while she was softly responding to what I was asking her to do, she was fussing with the bit and bobbing her head the whole time. I honestly don't know what that means. Just frustrated with all the slow crap and wanting to GO, maybe? I mean, she actually is pretty sensitive to the light cues, I guess is what I'm trying to say, but she makes a big deal of being cranky about it. Maybe that's what people are seeing in the video and interpreting as resistance. I don't really think she is all that stiff/defiant/resistant, per se. But then I don't know what she _is_, besides a "typical barrel horse."

Huh.



TheGrassIsGreener said:


> Dear OP,
> Leverage bits are double-reined in english disciplines so that you can have constant contact with the snaffle portion, and lighter/intermittent contact with the curb/leverage part.
> 
> Your seat, I think is pretty nice and your hands aren't that bad. The real tension and head tossing you are getting from this mare is the constant pressure on the leverage/curb of your bit. That bit is one you are supposed to drop contact with to reward the right response. This mare is getting no reward when she embraces the contact so then she fusses/ and tosses her head again. She is communicating with you and I see a horse that is very willing to try.
> 
> If you prefer to ride with constant contact I bet you'd get a lot better results from your mare (no more head tossing) with a snaffle bit/no curb. If she really needs the brakes you can try the Myler bits - many of those come with pretty solid 'brakes' in my experience.
> 
> Best of luck.


Thank you for the well-wishes. Once upon a time I knew how to use a double bridle--I was riding Saddleseat, not dressage, though. Not that that's really to the point of the thread, but hey, brought back memories!

I'm guessing you haven't waded through all of the replies, but this mare really is not a fan of snaffle bits, and if I can, I'd like to ride her in something similar to what I use for competition. I think the goals of softening are achievable with a curb bit. I might mess with different mouthpieces to see if I can't get a better response that allows me to have more slack in the reins, however. I do ride with slack all the time while walking--the problem comes at faster gaits when she's constantly trying to see just how fast I'll let her go.



gottatrot said:


> To the OP: You were asking about how to teach your horse collection without changing the way she carries her head. I would have to say it is impossible to do. She is bracing, hollow and she would have to be taught to stretch out over her topline in order to learn to collect and round up. The high neck carriage of a dressage horse is the end result, not the beginning. Horses have to start long and low first, then gradually the base of their neck elevates as the hind end strengthens and the horse learns to collect over time. I work with Arabs with very high natural head carriage. They have to be taught to work long and low before they can learn to collect. Don't worry, they can still pull their heads up as high as they want to do jumping and speed work. Their necks to take on a more attractive appearance overall though after working more correctly.


I don't recall asking that specific question, but it is an interesting concept nonetheless. The problem is that headset is really independent of back collection. The issue I always run into is that I get a horse to drop its head down low, while the hind end trails far behind. I've always read from the horsemanship philosophers that you're supposed to ride a horse back to front, driving the rear up and forward with impulsion, and then somehow the horse reaches up for contact and arches the head. In practice, try though I might to achieve that goal, I've never had it work out that way.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Allison Finch said:


> My statement was *borderline* abusive, and I was referring to the original thread where she was trying to force her horse to "speed rack". It had nothing to do with the video at the beginning of this thread.
> 
> This is a link to the locked thread;
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/what-do-you-think-horse-rider-79355/


Forced? I've been on horses like this - all she's doing is not holding her on a stranglehold and reining her in before she canters. It may look awkward, but my Arab mare was darn good at doing the same thing until I put a tie down on her. In my case, it was all behaviors learned from whoever owned her before I got her. I think it looks worse from her head flipping, as even my Arab now will do the same thing on the trail when she hits her "power trot" and attempt to break into a canter.


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## bubba13

Allison Finch said:


> My statement was *borderline* abusive, and I was referring to the original thread where she was trying to force her horse to "speed rack". It had nothing to do with the video at the beginning of this thread.
> 
> This is a link to the locked thread;
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/what-do-you-think-horse-rider-79355/


 
Not bloody well forcing my horse to do anything. Somebody needs a new hobby, and it ain't me vs. riding.


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## bsms

corinowalk said:


> This mares conformation leads to a high head carriage. Naturally. Though she is not an arab. I would just like to know why arabs are allowed to do speed events with their noses in the air but AQHA's are not? Especially AQHA's that have conformation that leads to a higher headset.


The problem isn't her mare's head. Take a look at the videos someone made below...you'll see some fairly high heads, but the horses look like they are moving a lot more willingly and with better control. I don't get the sense that they are fighting their riders.


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## bubba13

Now compare that to my barrel racing videos, not the pasture riding one. Pretty much the same in the horse's attitude and style of riding, I'd reckon. Though I'm on a slow Internet connection, so I can't view the videos. I have of course seen the latter, if it's the 2010 NFR. Is it? Check out the hot gray Jill Moody is riding, if so! Actually, I see it's the 2008--I think she rode Dolly that year, too.


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## MacabreMikolaj

^

I'd pay money to see half those girls working in an arena. You do realize that MOST barrel racers are exactly what you just showed right? High strung lunatics who can't even ENTER an arena without someone leading them in, rearing and fighting tooth and nail the entire way?

I must say, I liked what I saw of the OP's runs a LOT better then 90% of that second video. I DETEST that video.


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## kevinshorses

What I saw are horses that bend through thier necks and bodies so that they can keep running around the barrels. The horse in the OP is stiff through her body and so she has to swing her hind end around to make the turn. I see a huge difference between the OP's barrel racing videos and these. These are, in all fairness, world champion contenders so some differences are expected. These are the ideal to be worked toward if you aspire to be a barrelracer. You can bet that every one of these women watch thier own videos and NEVER say "that's good enough".


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## bubba13

OK, I waited for the NFR video to load. Notice how heavy-handed the second rider is, and how her horse is being lead in through a loop on the bit. Notice how the third rider's horse is dreading the alley. Also notice this rider "punishing" her horse's face as she exits the arena. The fourth rider is excessively heavy with the whip. I think the fifth rider is using a super harsh bike chain tie-down, but I can't see for sure. The sixth rider is over-riding and pulling her horse off balance. The 12th (? lost count) rider has an excessively tight tie-down. Lucky # 13--I'm biased, but love that pair! Dolly's sire is Bones' grandaddy. Number 14, Brittany Pozzi--she may be a world champion, but I hate the way she rides. Look at that snatch and jerk around the third, and she's always doing that.


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## mustbemonroe

Although I didn't read through alllll the posts (so I might be restating some views) I will play and put my two cents in.

OP, I just saw you video in this thread, none of the others. I think it is unfair to compare your horse in that video to the NFR horses running barrels. In your video, I saw a horse that was uncomfortable-_somewhere_. My first guess would be a sore back, second resisting the bit-for whatever reason. Both are very fixable. 
Another thing that jumped out at me was the use of your hands. Although the reins stayed fairly loose throughout, I noticed when you were posting the trot you moved your hands in the same motion as your posting...up down up down. Even with the reins somewhat loose the horse can still feel this in her mouth...which can cause fussiness. Another fixable habit.
My last suggestion would be to maybe invest in some basic dressage-when I say that I don't mean the collected, stuffy, dressage (I love Dressage, btw). Dressage means _training_, and I think it would highly benefit you in your sport. It would teach your horse to relax in the aids, become more flexible and stretchy (which would help her back) and be more responsive to you...I have some friends who audited a multi-day barrel clinic (they were reiners) and they said only a part of one of the days was actually running barrels...all of the other stuff was bending/stretching exercises, speed control by using the body, and other stuff you would "typically" find in a Dressage ring.


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## MacabreMikolaj

kevinshorses said:


> What I saw are horses that bend through thier necks and bodies so that they can keep running around the barrels. The horse in the OP is stiff through her body and so she has to swing her hind end around to make the turn. I see a huge difference between the OP's barrel racing videos and these. These are, in all fairness, world champion contenders so some differences are expected. These are the ideal to be worked toward if you aspire to be a barrelracer. You can bet that every one of these women watch thier own videos and NEVER say "that's good enough".


*snorts* I politely disagree. "World contender" does not mean GOOD unless we actually condone the abuse of horses now. I mean, completely arena sour, in vicious bits and tie downs with someone whipping and kicking you the entire way, of course that's what a generation of barrel racers should aspire to.

We are SLOWLY starting to finally see the quiet soft riders win, so I sincerely hope THAT is the path we begin to follow as what a barrel racer should aspire to, and not half the witches on horseback you see at "national" level. If a cowboy ever treated his horse the way half those bimbos do, he'd be in court on felony abuse charges.


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## Peggysue

Mo why not use your pellham with the double reins use a longer set on the bottom so you can hang them on your horn... work on getting her softer but when needed you'll have that crub rein?

I do think she is tense but being in a area with Congress and World Show contesters I understand what you are going thur with her those horses are adrenline junkies LOL tense and ready to go for any reason

Hey wanna come lope my ponies out for me?


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## bsms

MacabreMikolaj said:


> *snorts* I politely disagree. "World contender" does not mean GOOD unless we actually condone the abuse of horses now. I mean, completely arena sour, in vicious bits and tie downs with someone whipping and kicking you the entire way, of course that's what a generation of barrel racers should aspire to.
> 
> We are SLOWLY starting to finally see the quiet soft riders win, so I sincerely hope THAT is the path we begin to follow as what a barrel racer should aspire to, and not half the witches on horseback you see at "national" level. If a cowboy ever treated his horse the way half those bimbos do, he'd be in court on felony abuse charges.


Politely, I disagree. The video didn't show horses that were completely arena sour. Most looked pretty enthusiastic to me. Maybe I'd have a different viewpoint if I saw behind the scenes, but all I can go by is the video.

Vicious bits? Well, I've always heard it is the rider, not the bit, and the OP has defended her choice of bit as acceptable. My mare goes bitless, but I'm switching her back to a bit. Why? Because I think I can use it now to help her calm when things get scary. Again, maybe I'd change my view if I went behind the scenes and saw bloody mouths, etc. Is that what happens?

Because the horses in the video looked a lot more accepting of the bit that the OP's horse - which isn't meant as a criticism of the OP. My mare came to me terrified of bits, and some bad experiences can take a horse years to overcome.

Whipping and kicking? I didn't see anything that rises to 1/10 of what Mia will do if another horse tries to eat her food! Are the horses cut and bloody? Are they spurred into submission? I didn't see that at all.

As for cowboys, my gelding was a ranch horse and calm as could be on my friend's ranch. He was the little kids horse. But there was a gap while arranging transportation for him, and he was loaned to a ranch in Colorado for 3 months. He was returned with bloody holes in his side, and a hole in his withers, and so afraid of lariats that he broke through the side of a metal corral the first time he saw one here. We've spent 2 years trying to undo 3 months...

World contender or champion doesn't mean kind and gentle. If you have evidence that these riders abuse their horses and deserve felony abuse charges, turn it over to a DA. But publicly saying that champion barrel riders identified by name in a video are abusing their horses to the point of deserving felony charges goes way beyond acceptable discussion. It may not be legally actionable under US law, but folks ought to have some evidence in hand before publicly accusing others of felony abuse of animals.

Just IMHO.

Like kevinshorses, I see horses that stay tight to barrels because they CAN stay tight. I see a difference that reflects their fundamental training.

Their heads may or may not be carried high, but it is HOW they carry them, not WHERE - and I'm not seeing resistance and fear in HOW they carry their heads. I see them stretching out between the barrels. I'm NOT seeing horses that look afraid of their riders. I see some areas for improvement in the OP's horse, although I don't know enough about training to know how long it would take or the specific steps that would be required. My mare still manages at times to freak over the Green Trashcans of Death that have been next to her corral for over 2 years, so maybe some things are in the OP's mare's nature and can't be entirely eliminated. Sometimes you have to ride the horse you've got, not the horse you wish you had. Believe me, I sometimes wish I had bought a calm lazy nag to learn to ride on instead of a fairly intense Arabian mare!

But I don't think I posted a video of felony abuse.


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## kevinshorses

bsms said:


> Sometimes you have to ride the horse you've got, not the horse you wish you had.


I always ride a horse like I WANT them to be untill that's the way they ARE. If you just say "Well, she's just a mare" or "He's always done that" you are cheating yourself and your horse. 

Many problems would be eliminated if people would concentrate more on becoming better horseman and less on winning prizes.


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## bsms

kevinshorses said:


> I always ride a horse like I WANT them to be untill that's the way they ARE. If you just say "Well, she's just a mare" or "He's always done that" you are cheating yourself and your horse...


Here is what I meant. I can work with Mia to calm her, but she will never be the mythical bombproof horse. There are many horses who are calmer on their first ride than Mia is likely to ever become. Just as horses have physical conformation that can limit their use, they can also have mental conformation that limits them.

That doesn't mean you don't work with them, but on a given day you need to ride what you have on that day. You also need to set priorities. I can think of a dozen things in both Mia and myself that need to change, but I cannot work on all of them at once. So I have to accept something I don't like for now while working to improve a specific area.

As a newish rider, I'm trying to learn to relax into the saddle. This would NOT be a good time for me to learn jumping. It would not be a good time for me to take up barrel racing. And I don't think I'll be ready to start in 2 months, either. I need to work with what I've got, not with what I want to have a year from now. Training needs to be orderly, consistent, and appropriate for the current level of ability. There needs to be a plan, and the plan needs to account for where both the horse and rider are right now. And the plan's end goal needs to account for natural abilities as well.

Mia will never run barrels. She's a 15.3 Arabian who likes straight lines and whose head would explode if put in a barrel riding competition. She has been used for endurance racing, but I don't have the ability to ride her like that - yet. Trooper may someday do barrel racing with my daughter. He's very agile, has good acceleration and is far calmer by nature. But he would suck at roping or dressage or show jumping. 

You can buy a horse to match your sport, or find a sport to match your horse. That is what I mean by ride what you've got.


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## gottatrot

Apparently my last post was not as articulate as I thought. I thought when you said this... 



bubba13 said:


> She could still string out and hollow her back even if her head was at a lower level. ... If I could keep her head exactly where it is, or wherever she wants to put it, but get her to use herself better, I'd certainly be happy with that result.


...that you were asking how to let your horse keep her head where it was and still get more control of her body and teach her to use it more athletically. My point was that you can't separate the head and neck from the rest of the body. I have never met a horse that could learn to use their body correctly by starting out with their head held high, which naturally hollows them out. Even horses born with high headsets have to learn to work with them low and with their neck and back muscles stretched out UNTIL they are strong enough to elevate in the front from muscle development. 

It is a similar principle to teaching a horse to bend _through the body_ in order to teach the horse to become truly straight. 
Hopefully that made more sense.
(In case it's not clear, the first horse is strung out and not using his body properly while the second horse is able to use his body much better.)


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## MIEventer

> Sometimes you have to ride the horse you've got, not the horse you wish you had.


I think your phrase here made a lot of sense and I agree  Absolutely!

As I learnt from Ian Millar eons ago when I rode in a clinic under him, he taught me "A good rider conforms to their horse, a poor rider makes their horse conform to them" and it makes a lot of sense.

Your explanation states to me that you are a very responsible, educated rider/owner who conforms to your horses, instead of forcing them to be something they are not capeable of being, or doing or working in a way, that they cannot.


----------



## gottatrot

^^Strongly agree. Another quote I live by is that "A true horseman blames himself and not his horse."


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## MacabreMikolaj

When you have to LEAD a horse into an arena, because he can't get there by himself without going to neurotic pieces, that is called arena sour.

If you actually see EAGER horses in that video, I have a feeling YOU need to reflect on your training more and judge others less. After all, the OP's horse is only eager to run after all.

I see absolutely nothing different in these horses coming down the chute then the OP's horse. Half of them are doing the EXACT same nose flip to evade the bit, and with a GREAT deal harsher metal in their mouth then what the OP has. I would bet you money you wouldn't control a single one of those horses in a snaffle, not even on a good day. 

Tighter barrels? Is that why they're all knocking them down? Or could that possibly have something to do with the total lack of rating by most of them, and completely dropping their horses in front of the turn AS they kick the entire way around? :roll:

And if you ACTUALLY compared how horses play in a pasture with CONSTANTLY spurring and whipping the daylights out of your horse, even when he's going as FAST as he possibly can, I feel **** sorry for your horses. I have ZERO issues with implementing physical disciplines, but it is completely asinine to me to think that whipping and spurring a performing animal every second stride is encouraging them to enjoy their job.

Funny how you so VERY rarely see ANY competitions horses blow and cause wrecks quite like you do in barrel racing. Maybe flat racing? Great comparison!


----------



## Golden Horse

Time for a thought here.......

We had a great question on another forum about the lengths we will go to to compete and win.

For me that means that actually I'm not happy with how far Mr G and I have come with engagement and collection, I'm now strapping his mouth up with a flash noseband, just so he will score more points NOW in his dressage. If I was still a 'happy hacker' I would be delighted at his new way of going.

For the OP, as is often said, if you are saying one thing and a deal of people are saying another, then maybe you can take something from them.

To the deal of people, how many of you compete? If this was your last season at you sport for a while what would you do to compete and win??

Maybe if Bubba goes of to do other thing sin the fall Bones could go on free lease to a dressage home, and we could see what time and a different training method makes of her.

BUT if Bubba wants to compete this year, then she is going to have to do what she has to do.


----------



## kitten_Val

bubba13 said:


> She's always been extremely spooky and reactive, and I think doing speed events on her just compounds the issue on a horse like that. But after the fact, who knows, really? I will say that a _lot _of the barrel horses I've seen--even the slow, "loser" ones--are mentally shot. And that's just really sad. That all stems from people running them too hard, too soon.


So can you just try something ELSE with her? Team penning? Long trail rides (and by long I mean long enough to get her tired)? 

Heck, if you are going to the college it means you are young. You have the whole life still in front of you, so this year is definitely not your "last chance".


----------



## kitten_Val

Golden Horse said:


> To the deal of people, how many of you compete? If this was your last season at you sport for a while what would you do to compete and win??


If my horse wouldn't be ready I would NOT compete even if I'd be off sport for while. That simple. But its just me.


----------



## kitten_Val

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I see absolutely nothing different in these horses coming down the chute then the OP's horse. Half of them are doing the EXACT same nose flip to evade the bit, and with a GREAT deal harsher metal in their mouth then what the OP has. I would bet you money you wouldn't control a single one of those horses in a snaffle, not even on a good day.


MM, with all respect, what is the point you are trying to make? There are LOTS of badly trained OR ruined horses over there in world, does it mean they can't be re-trained? Noone gets on such a horse and expects a full control, roundness, etc. in one ride. Every and each horse (ANY horse) require a proper training or re-training. Which takes lots of time. Any advice given will require time to start working (unless it's a gimmick of course).


----------



## wild_spot

> To the deal of people, how many of you compete? If this was your last season at you sport for a while what would you do to compete and win??


Me. I compete nearly every weekend and have always been very competitive. Just last weekend I was at a speed events show - Our zone championships. I won this event five years in a row on my last horse. My current horse was getting a bit rushy, and butting his head to the outside and dropping his shoulder into the turns - Big no-no. So what did I do? I slowed right back and made him run his races correctly. Shot any chance I had of winning, but my horse was going correctly, and is now still set up for the next time I want to game him. 

The training of the horse is my main goal and any wins are a pleasant extra.


----------



## bubba13

mustbemonroe said:


> Although I didn't read through alllll the posts (so I might be restating some views) I will play and put my two cents in.
> 
> OP, I just saw you video in this thread, none of the others. I think it is unfair to compare your horse in that video to the NFR horses running barrels. In your video, I saw a horse that was uncomfortable-_somewhere_. My first guess would be a sore back, second resisting the bit-for whatever reason. Both are very fixable.
> Another thing that jumped out at me was the use of your hands. Although the reins stayed fairly loose throughout, I noticed when you were posting the trot you moved your hands in the same motion as your posting...up down up down. Even with the reins somewhat loose the horse can still feel this in her mouth...which can cause fussiness. Another fixable habit.
> My last suggestion would be to maybe invest in some basic dressage-when I say that I don't mean the collected, stuffy, dressage (I love Dressage, btw). Dressage means _training_, and I think it would highly benefit you in your sport. It would teach your horse to relax in the aids, become more flexible and stretchy (which would help her back) and be more responsive to you...I have some friends who audited a multi-day barrel clinic (they were reiners) and they said only a part of one of the days was actually running barrels...all of the other stuff was bending/stretching exercises, speed control by using the body, and other stuff you would "typically" find in a Dressage ring.


I guess you missed it, but the horse has been vetted thoroughly. No discernable back soreness or other lameness issue.

As for the rest, you're right, and though you can't tell from my little three-minute clip, we do try to work some of those stretching/ whole body control stuff aids into our daily workouts. Could always do more, though, I guess.



MacabreMikolaj said:


> *snorts* I politely disagree. "World contender" does not mean GOOD unless we actually condone the abuse of horses now. I mean, completely arena sour, in vicious bits and tie downs with someone whipping and kicking you the entire way, of course that's what a generation of barrel racers should aspire to.
> 
> *We are SLOWLY starting to finally see the quiet soft riders win, so I sincerely hope THAT is the path we begin to follow as what a barrel racer should aspire to,* and not half the witches on horseback you see at "national" level. If a cowboy ever treated his horse the way half those bimbos do, he'd be in court on felony abuse charges.


I agree wholeheartedly with the bolded part. The rest, well, I'll hem and haw about that. I don't know that "abuse" is quite the right word. Poor horsemanship, cruel, excessive force, sure. I don't know. I've seen some pretty horrible things in numerous disciplines that simply cannot be compared to a little kicking and whipping. Not that the latter are ever excusable, that is, but I guess so long as the horse is otherwise extremely well care-for, and you aren't taking your frustrations on the horse (like the one gal punishing the face on the way out), then I won't say too terribly much about it.



Peggysue said:


> Mo why not use your pellham with the double reins use a longer set on the bottom so you can hang them on your horn... work on getting her softer but when needed you'll have that crub rein?
> 
> I do think she is tense but being in a area with Congress and World Show contesters I understand what you are going thur with her those horses are adrenline junkies LOL tense and ready to go for any reason
> 
> Hey wanna come lope my ponies out for me?


Heck, why not? We're into the bartering phase now. I traded a ride on a horse for a tube of bute today--next it'll be chickens and potatoes. The Pelham idea is a thought....maybe not in my Myler, but in my rubber Pelham. Hmmmm....though I will say I rode her today in her Argentine and tie-down and she worked really nicely. Very little messing with the bit, nice movement, head tucked (but still high-necked). Trotted her a mile and a half and loped her a mile. She felt good.


----------



## bubba13

gottatrot said:


> Apparently my last post was not as articulate as I thought. I thought when you said this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...that you were asking how to let your horse keep her head where it was and still get more control of her body and teach her to use it more athletically. My point was that you can't separate the head and neck from the rest of the body. I have never met a horse that could learn to use their body correctly by starting out with their head held high, which naturally hollows them out. Even horses born with high headsets have to learn to work with them low and with their neck and back muscles stretched out UNTIL they are strong enough to elevate in the front from muscle development.
> 
> It is a similar principle to teaching a horse to bend _through the body_ in order to teach the horse to become truly straight.
> Hopefully that made more sense.
> (In case it's not clear, the first horse is strung out and not using his body properly while the second horse is able to use his body much better.)


Gotcha now. For what it's worth, and I don't know if you were even implying this, but I don't think my horse is anywhere near as bad as the first photo you posted, though granted she's got nowhere near the frame as the chestnut. Which is to be expected.

And what you're saying is generally how I go about teaching collection. I might actually even tie the head down lightly for a few short longeing sessions to try to teach the concept of giving to pressure and flexing at the poll. Then I ride, and ask for that bending, while trying to drive forward with the legs. And at that point it can go one of two ways: You achieve true, balanced, full-body collection, or you get a horse who drops his head into a false frame and swings his butt out behind him like a separate entity. Hopefully a good rider is able to get the former to at least some degree. But while that method is what you suggest, and while that is what I myself you, the literature I have read says just the opposite--that you should start with the legs and hind and work your way forward, and not even worry about the head until much later. I haven't even tried to implement that in my training because quite frankly I have no idea how to go about it.



Golden Horse said:


> Time for a thought here.......
> 
> We had a great question on another forum about the lengths we will go to to compete and win.
> 
> For me that means that actually I'm not happy with how far Mr G and I have come with engagement and collection, I'm now strapping his mouth up with a flash noseband, just so he will score more points NOW in his dressage. If I was still a 'happy hacker' I would be delighted at his new way of going.
> 
> For the OP, as is often said, if you are saying one thing and a deal of people are saying another, then maybe you can take something from them.
> 
> To the deal of people, how many of you compete? If this was your last season at you sport for a while what would you do to compete and win??
> 
> Maybe if Bubba goes of to do other thing sin the fall Bones could go on free lease to a dressage home, and we could see what time and a different training method makes of her.
> 
> BUT if Bubba wants to compete this year, then she is going to have to do what she has to do.


Screw free lease--I'll trade you even, Bones for Mr. G. You can take her on dressage and I'll take him on barrels. We can be pen pals and compare notes about our respective horses' training logs....











kitten_Val said:


> So can you just try something ELSE with her? Team penning? Long trail rides (and by long I mean long enough to get her tired)?
> 
> Heck, if you are going to the college it means you are young. You have the whole life still in front of you, so this year is definitely not your "last chance".
> 
> If my horse wouldn't be ready I would NOT compete even if I'd be off sport for while. That simple. But its just me.


Are you saying that I should not barrel race her, because she "is not ready?" Respectfully, I disagree. This is an animal who was bred, trained, and conditioned to be a barrel horse. She _is_ ready, and she's mad enough that I'm holding her back from it at the moment (with only a tiny smidge of anthropomorphism involved there). She is extraordinary good at this discipline and I fully believe she enjoys it, too, as much as a horse can enjoy working.

And while in regards to the first part of your quote I wish you were right, sadly I suspect that's not going to be the case. Presuming things work out according to plan, I'll be looking at at least four years of hell in grad school, probably two years or more of slaving away in an internship, possibly additional years of education beyond that, then the years of stress and poverty while I'm getting established, and then a long career as a workaholic! And that's the best case scenario. Regardless, I will somehow manage to make the time for personal horses, but I'm sure my days of petty NBHA competitions will be long over.


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## bsms

bubba13 said:


> ...Presuming things work out according to plan, I'll be looking at at least four years of hell in grad school, probably two years or more of slaving away in an internship, possibly additional years of education beyond that, then the years of stress and poverty while I'm getting established, and then a long career as a workaholic! And that's the best case scenario. Regardless, I will somehow manage to make the time for personal horses, but I'm sure my days of petty NBHA competitions will be long over.





Westley said:


> _I myself am often surprised at life's little quirks._


 The Princess Bride, The Princess Bride: S. Morgenstern's ... - Google Books

Maybe it comes with being 52, but surprisingly little in life goes according to plan...


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## MacabreMikolaj

kitten_Val said:


> MM, with all respect, what is the point you are trying to make? There are LOTS of badly trained OR ruined horses over there in world, does it mean they can't be re-trained? Noone gets on such a horse and expects a full control, roundness, etc. in one ride. Every and each horse (ANY horse) require a proper training or re-training. Which takes lots of time. Any advice given will require time to start working (unless it's a gimmick of course).


No, my point was that comparing the OP to barrel racers like a large chunk of the ones shown in the video proves absolutely nothing, and actually excuses her horses way of going according to the line of thought that the horses in the video are going "proper". For all the begging to use a snaffle and re-school her horse, half the barrel racers at top level are a BAD comparison.

I find it pretty pathetic that we live in a world where "a little whipping and spurring" is ok as long as you pet your pretty horsey afterwards and feed him. :roll: We should ALL aspire to something higher then THAT.


----------



## Northern

Question should've been: what should I do with this horse, bearing in mind that _I don't have time _to re-start her? (& she prefers barrel racing & I like it, too!)

Answers would've been: not much that you can do, then, since there are no quick fixes with horses. 

What was the point of asking?


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## Golden Horse

:twisted:


bubba13 said:


> Screw free lease--I'll trade you even, Bones for Mr. G. You can take her on dressage and I'll take him on barrels. We can be pen pals and compare notes about our respective horses' training logs....


:lol: Now that sounds like a challenge.....I don't know who would be most mismatched, mmmmmmmm I think I would have a better chance with Bones making the dressage grade, than you would have getting Mr G to chase cans :rofl:


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## bubba13

Ah, I think you severely underestimate my training abilities....


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## AlexS

Agh what the heck? I was born and raised in England and not familiar with Western stuff. 

How common is that?


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## gottatrot

I did not even want to know that bit existed. Hopefully someone made it for a joke...to prove a point. OK, that's me in my Pollyanna world.

Quote: "I might actually even tie the head down lightly for a few short longeing sessions to try to teach the concept of giving to pressure and flexing at the poll."

Trying to teach a horse collection that way will be counter-productive. A tie down will help the horse develop the wrong muscles in her neck, making it more difficult work through her back. They can't learn to flex at the poll by leaning against a tie down.

"...the literature I have read says...that you should start with the legs and hind and work your way forward, and not even worry about the head until much later."

I know, it gets confusing. But if you ride a horse around with a completely loose rein, the horse will never flex at the poll and reach forward into the bit. It just won't ever happen, no matter how much you work on getting the horse to drive from behind. The thought behind the literature is that so many people try to work from the head backwards and achieve a false headset. But even when you are driving the horse forward, there has to be some light contact with the bit so the horse can flex into it. It just is much lighter in comparison to the force of the horse driving forward, whether that is caused by the rider driving the horse or by the horse being very naturally forward. 

Not sure if you even interested in this. But just teaching the most basic level of this will help your horse develop a stronger hind end, get off the forehand, and be much more responsive to you. All of that helps in speed disciplines. Of course none of this applies unless you teach it properly with a bit you can ride in with contact that the horse can reach into.

Do I compete? Yes. I show HP occasionally right now and have shown WP. I don't barrel race or game, but I ride hot, competitive horses. My serious discipline right now is endurance, and I dabble in cross country (haven't competed but we make our own outdoor courses).


----------



## Spyder

bubba13 said:


> And what you're saying is generally how I go about teaching collection. I might actually even tie the head down lightly for a few short longeing sessions to try to teach the concept of giving to pressure and flexing at the poll. Then I ride, and ask for that bending, while trying to drive forward with the legs. And at that point it can go one of two ways: You achieve true, balanced, full-body collection, or you get a horse who drops his head into a false frame and swings his butt out behind him like a separate entity. Hopefully a good rider is able to get the former to at least some degree. But while that method is what you suggest, and while that is what I myself you, the literature I have read says just the opposite--that you should start with the legs and hind and work your way forward, and not even worry about the head until much later. *I haven't even tried to implement that in my training because quite frankly I have no idea how to go about it*.


And therein lays the problem with your horse.


----------



## kitten_Val

bubba13 said:


> Are you saying that I should not barrel race her, because she "is not ready?"


Nope, I was saying if you want her to change the way she is now you wouldn't.


----------



## kitten_Val

Northern said:


> Question should've been: what should I do with this horse, bearing in mind that _I don't have time _to re-start her? (& she prefers barrel racing & I like it, too!)
> 
> Answers would've been: not much that you can do, then, since there are no quick fixes with horses.


Good summary, Nothern! :lol:


----------



## MIEventer

bubba13 said:


> Ah, I think you severely underestimate my training abilities....


Whomever decides to use this $#!+ on their horses, needs a severe reality check in horsemanship.

I would love to use this garbage, on the person who thinks it's ok to put this anywhere near a horse.:evil::evil:


----------



## Jinba Ittai

That bit has an optical illusion quality if you scroll up and down on the shanks...makes me dizzy!

As far as the horse goes, she does seem to have her nose out of joint. You did mention that she worked well under that Pelham, so why not just leave it on her instead of switching bits? I'm not sure I understand the logic to switching the bit constantly. I know that you can't necessarily let her barrel around at top speed due to her injury, but it was immensely helpful with my hot little barrel horse (who I was able to show all-around - WP and all). Once she figured out that it was easier to move at a slower pace, she was much more receptive to collection. It was one hell of a ride the first time I let her run herself out, but it really really did make a huge difference on her general attitude about the bit and collection.

At any rate, I know you have tried and are trying lots of things to help the horse regain condition, as well as to address her training issues. That's the best anyone can hope for, and something I am doing with my own clown-face at the moment. Best of luck.


----------



## Northern

I also notice that bubba13 "doesn't have time" to get a foundatioin on her horse, but has spent HOW many hours posting & reading posts (many of which were long) on her two threads on the subject. Plus, now bubba's partying, with the outrageous equipment pics, etc. Partying takes more time.


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## Peggysue

most of her post are late at night/early morning if you watch or while she is in school


----------



## Sahara

Northern said:


> I also notice that bubba13 "doesn't have time" to get a foundatioin on her horse, but has spent HOW many hours posting & reading posts (many of which were long) on her two threads on the subject. Plus, now bubba's partying, with the outrageous equipment pics, etc. Partying takes more time.


What are you talking about? Partying? 

Have you nothing better to do than keep tabs on bubba's use of time? Should she be riding her mare at 1 am? Good grief.


----------



## bubba13

AlexS said:


> Agh what the heck? I was born and raised in England and not familiar with Western stuff.
> 
> How common is that?


Haha. The spurs are centuries-old Arabian models and the whip is a modern day stock whip for cracking at cattle. The bit is not a Western one, but a very real piece of Tennesse Walking Horse "training" equipment. It "helps 'em gait," doncha know...



gottatrot said:


> I did not even want to know that bit existed. Hopefully someone made it for a joke...to prove a point. OK, that's me in my Pollyanna world.
> 
> Quote: "I might actually even tie the head down lightly for a few short longeing sessions to try to teach the concept of giving to pressure and flexing at the poll."
> 
> Trying to teach a horse collection that way will be counter-productive. A tie down will help the horse develop the wrong muscles in her neck, making it more difficult work through her back. They can't learn to flex at the poll by leaning against a tie down.
> 
> "...the literature I have read says...that you should start with the legs and hind and work your way forward, and not even worry about the head until much later."
> 
> I know, it gets confusing. But if you ride a horse around with a completely loose rein, the horse will never flex at the poll and reach forward into the bit. It just won't ever happen, no matter how much you work on getting the horse to drive from behind. The thought behind the literature is that so many people try to work from the head backwards and achieve a false headset. But even when you are driving the horse forward, there has to be some light contact with the bit so the horse can flex into it. It just is much lighter in comparison to the force of the horse driving forward, whether that is caused by the rider driving the horse or by the horse being very naturally forward.
> 
> Not sure if you even interested in this. But just teaching the most basic level of this will help your horse develop a stronger hind end, get off the forehand, and be much more responsive to you. All of that helps in speed disciplines. Of course none of this applies unless you teach it properly with a bit you can ride in with contact that the horse can reach into.
> 
> Do I compete? Yes. I show HP occasionally right now and have shown WP. I don't barrel race or game, but I ride hot, competitive horses. My serious discipline right now is endurance, and I dabble in cross country (haven't competed but we make our own outdoor courses).


Sorry. Instead of saying "tie down the head" I should have written "bit back." Snaffle bit connected to stirrups via split reins for a few short ground work sessions. Maybe it's a gimmicky shortcut, but it sure saves a lot of time and effort, not to mention stressful fighting between horse and rider.

From what you're describing, it actually does sound quite a bit like what I work for. Get the horse to understand the concept of dropping the head and flexing at the poll first via ground stuff / bitting back, then ride on contact and asking for that headset while pushing forward with the calves and heel to ask the horse to drive from behind and move _into_ the bit, rather than dragging the whole horse backwards by the mouth. Right?


----------



## Tasia

I am going to ignore the stories, the replies, the arguments and go with what I think is right. Get off that horse and start ground work get her to move her hips, her forehand back up, come forward. Free lunge her in a round and MAKE her pay keep her eyes on you. Get her moving then shut her down with your energy. This method of using your energy has worked flawlessly with horses I have worked with its just a matter of adjusting your energy to get to the horse to react. 

I can see in your video that your trotting and having little success. If its not working at the walk its not going to work at the trot if its not working at the trot its not going to work at the lope.

PM if you want some excersizes to do.


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## bubba13

Spyder said:


> And therein lays the problem with your horse.


Unless I've been interpreting the literature wrong. If gottatrot is correct and I am not, then I've actually been doing (or at least trying to do) the "right" thing all along.



kitten_Val said:


> Nope, I was saying if you want her to change the way she is now you wouldn't.


Fair enough. Though I must say (not directed specifically at you) that I never did ask for a critique of my mare's training and how to make her a nice, calm, collected, turn-on-a-dime, reining-maneuvering trail horse. I said critiques (of general riding or whatever) are welcome, because I'd be hypocritical if I didn't. I'm not too proud to admit that I've heard some good things and learned a bit from this thread. But at the same time, I can't for the life of me understand why people are getting so personally offended when I don't immediately take their advice. Some of the advice has frankly been bad. Some has not been relevant to the situation. Some I am simply unwilling or unable to implement....and after all, that is indeed my choice. How many people on forum critique do you think take and employ everything they hear in responding posts, especially when it requires a lot of time and effort on their parts? I'm guessing very, very few. At least I'm being honest...and it's not like I'm being a rude know-it-all about it or worse yet hurting my horse in any way, so why in the world are people getting so worked-up and self-righteous?



Jinba ittai said:


> That bit has an optical illusion quality if you scroll up and down on the shanks...makes me dizzy!
> 
> As far as the horse goes, she does seem to have her nose out of joint. You did mention that she worked well under that Pelham, so why not just leave it on her instead of switching bits? I'm not sure I understand the logic to switching the bit constantly. I know that you can't necessarily let her barrel around at top speed due to her injury, but it was immensely helpful with my hot little barrel horse (who I was able to show all-around - WP and all). Once she figured out that it was easier to move at a slower pace, she was much more receptive to collection. It was one hell of a ride the first time I let her run herself out, but it really really did make a huge difference on her general attitude about the bit and collection.
> 
> At any rate, I know you have tried and are trying lots of things to help the horse regain condition, as well as to address her training issues. That's the best anyone can hope for, and something I am doing with my own clown-face at the moment. Best of luck.


Bit-switching is a bad habit of mine, but I'm always trying to see if I can find something that my horses like or work better in. That, and I've got to justify keeping my 40-odd bits and headstalls! Each one does have its own personal bit that I use the majority of the time, however, unless we're having specific problems. And it is pretty standard practice for barrel racers to have a separate bridle for competition and training/trails.

For what it's worth, the past two days I've ridden her in her standard Argentine set-up and she's been fine. I don't think she's head-flipping anywhere near as much in the video, but something else I noticed while riding today is that the head-flipping looks a whole lot worse than it actually is. In the video, I'm guessing it looks like she's pulling against the bit and fussing with the contact? Well, I realized today that even when she does do a head-flip like that, I can't feel it--she's not pulling on the reins to the point of snagging them or influencing my hands, which means a couple of things. First, she's not really fighting the bit, per se. Second, my contact is light enough that she has a fair amount of play, and she can move her head somewhat in each direction without changing the contact on her mouth. That tells me that it's not the bit itself that's the problem. I think it's more a symptom of general riding anxiety--not in the sense of being nervous and upset, but in the sense that "when we gonna go fast let me go fast please," but being too respectful to try to rip the reins away from me and take off on her own.

I've tried to let her trot herself out before. I wear out long before she does.  Trotted her a mile and a half and cantered her a mile yesterday, and she didn't even break the slightest sweat. And she's not in very good shape right now, either.



Northern said:


> I also notice that bubba13 "doesn't have time" to get a foundatioin on her horse, but has spent HOW many hours posting & reading posts (many of which were long) on her two threads on the subject. Plus, now bubba's partying, with the outrageous equipment pics, etc. Partying takes more time.


Dayum, wish I was partying, instead of stuck at home writing an oral presentation about the ills of government planning and studying for two science tests. An old good friend was in town last night and called me asking if I wanted him to bring me coffee, and I had to decline due to having too much homework, knowing he'd be too much of a distraction. *sigh*



Sahara said:


> What are you talking about? Partying?
> 
> Have you nothing better to do than keep tabs on bubba's use of time? Should she be riding her mare at 1 am? Good grief.


You reckon maybe I should a little play-by-play of my day schedule to appease some people? Here's tomorrow's plan:

7:30--wake up
8:15--leave for class
9:00--Biochemistry lecture
10:00--Microbiology test
11:00--lunch, possibly Internet time
12:00--Physics II
2:00--leave for home
2:45--begin barn chores
4:00--catch, groom, and ride horse
5:30--turn in and feed horses
6:00--sunset, too dark to ride, eat dinner
7:00--memorize glycolysis reactions, polish oral presentation, read textbooks, get daily Internet fix
12:00--go to bed

That's an easy day. Glad it's not a Tuesday or Thursday, when I don't get off class until 5:40 and thus get home too late to ride at all. Or the weekend, when I work and still only have time to ride one horse.


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## Jinba Ittai

bubba13 said:


> I've tried to let her trot herself out before. I wear out long before she does.  Trotted her a mile and a half and cantered her a mile yesterday, and she didn't even break the slightest sweat. And she's not in very good shape right now, either.


That will likely be my problem with Castle when I get riding him. He is very VERY athletic. Two months off, and he still barely breaks a sweat when I work him. I actually read an article in H&R a couple months back about doing the whole letting him run himself out thing, and the writer of the article (CA, I believe) actually said that "You have to let the horse set the pace and wait for HIM to slow down. Many riders will let the horse go for a few laps and then pull him up claiming that they could feel him slowing...nope, it is just THEM being too tired to keep going." So what happens with you isn't unusual.  I like to think about it as "skipping the gym". LOL


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## AlexS

bubba13 said:


> Haha. The spurs are centuries-old Arabian models and the whip is a modern day stock whip for cracking at cattle. The bit is not a Western one, but a very real piece of Tennesse Walking Horse "training" equipment. It "helps 'em gait," doncha know...


Want to talk about that, as frankly I am sick of everything else that is being talked about. I am sure you are too by now. 

The TWH bit, how commonly is that used? I remember when I first moved here and saw the blocks on the hoofs and thought they have some complicated medical issue that I didn't understand that was being corrected.


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## bubba13

Jinba, I don't know if it was the same article or not, but I read one by Clinton saying that you should never let your horse know how long you're going to ride him. Sometimes ride all day. Sometimes just a 30-minute walk. But if he thinks it could be a long, hard day, he'll want to conserve his energy. Don't know if it works or not, but it's an interesting theory.


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## bubba13

AlexS said:


> Want to talk about that, as frankly I am sick of everything else that is being talked about. I am sure you are too by now.
> 
> The TWH bit, how commonly is that used? I remember when I first moved here and saw the blocks on the hoofs and thought they have some complicated medical issue that I didn't understand that was being corrected.


Honestly, I don't know, as I'm not involved in the gaited horse scene. But whenever they're showing, particularly with the Big Lick horses, it's almost always a huge long shank and often some kind of gag. And ridden in constant tight contact.




























Here's a selection of bits to look at: Horse Bits, Walking Horse Bits, Custom Horse Bits, Grissom Bits, Tail Brace, Tennessee, Shobitz


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## New_image

Gah! I'm sorry, these Tenn. Walker photos do nothing to impress me, they make me sick! What people will do for a "look".


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## AlexS

Holy F! Those bits are insane. 

I had a big argument at my former barn because they ride two lesson horses in a twisted wire, I was told that of course beginners don't ride those horses, only those who can trot.
'Scuze me?

And as this thread is so full of controversy, I wonder if my old nag will jump higher if I build each hoof up by a foot?


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## apachewhitesox

New_image said:


> Gah! I'm sorry, these Tenn. Walker photos do nothing to impress me, they make me sick! What people will do for a "look".


I totally agree with you there


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## Equilove

Those TWH bits are ridiculous... do you think they do it to keep their heads up, and get that muscling up front? Do they use them with a curb strap? A friend of mine has a spotted saddle horse mare that doesn't gait, and she uses a bit like that on her. She lets her granddaughter (very, very novice) ride her, and she is constantly hauling on her mouth. I'm trying to convince her to switch to something with a much shorter shank, or a snaffle (I ride her in a snaffle, and she does fine). Those bits just seem... like... well... too much. =/ Of course I am uneducated on the saddleseat / TWH world, but still.


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## Chiilaa

Those pictures remind me of why I am so fricking glad we have very few gaited breeds over here in Australia. I saw a few ASB's for sale a few weeks ago, they were the first I have seen listed


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## Equilove

Chiilaa said:


> Those pictures remind me of why I am so fricking glad we have very few gaited breeds over here in Australia. I saw a few ASB's for sale a few weeks ago, they were the first I have seen listed


Not all ASBs are gaited, assuming you mean American Saddlebreds.. I think those 5-gaited ones are weird! lol


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## tinyliny

The whole Big Lick showing and that whole world is incomprehensible to me. I have never seen anything more artificial and more uncomfortable to both horse and rider. Even the riders look like they are "hanging on for dear life". There are many dark practices with this type of showing. Like soring and chains.
Again, I simply don't get the attraction of the fake shoes and such.

*scratches head*


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## apachewhitesox

Chiilaa said:


> Those pictures remind me of why I am so fricking glad we have very few gaited breeds over here in Australia. I saw a few ASB's for sale a few weeks ago, they were the first I have seen listed


Now that you mention it I haven't seen many gaited breeds in australia either and I think I'm glad too.


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## MacabreMikolaj

tinyliny said:


> The whole Big Lick showing and that whole world is incomprehensible to me. I have never seen anything more artificial and more uncomfortable to both horse and rider. Even the riders look like they are "hanging on for dear life". There are many dark practices with this type of showing. Like soring and chains.
> Again, I simply don't get the attraction of the fake shoes and such.
> 
> *scratches head*


It truly astounds me that in this day and age something as cruel and horrifying as Big Lick can still exist. I dislike the chains and pads they put on horses like Saddlebreds and Arabs, but they ARE just enhancing that big fancy movement they naturally have. Tennessee Walkers do NOT have natural high joint action movement! It's just unfathomable to me, as unfathomable as trying to make a Quarter Horse do what they do! That they could *******ize a gait SO horribly grotesque and far from anything and everything that is natural to the breed makes me sick to my stomach to whoever even got the idea to first try it.

You could show a Saddlebred or Arab without pads or chains and get very similar movement. You simply CANNOT produce the TWH Big Lick gait without massive pads, chains and cruel training methods. They were never designed to pick their feet up like that, UGH.

/end rant :evil:


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## MacabreMikolaj

How on EARTH do you take THIS:






And turn it into THIS:






And ironically, even the black in the first video is lifting his legs quite high for plantation - look at the pinto!


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## Chiilaa

MM that second video made me throw up a little :*( Poor pony :*(


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## Northern

So glad to see your getting your schoolwork done, too, bubba!Can you admit that you should've told people that you don't have time to do anything else with your horse, given your schedule? It's as if you didn't make a major omission by not doing so, that cost people, including myself, time & effort in viewing your video, considering, then posting our opinions!


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## Northern

I meant, "you're" (getting schoolwork done.)


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## vivache

'Plantation' is a heavy shoe. It's the step below built-up(pads).

Not all Walkers are ridden in HUGE bits, but many are. It's a shortcut. We ride our Walkers in normal wonderbits or curbs with copper rollers. We school in snaffles quite a bit.

Action devices need to be used carefully and with discretion. Chains in my view are useless, since they snag hair. I would only use a roller that's well-lubed. They don't work on every horse, either.

That being said, the horses I show are no more than all-day/trail pleasure.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Thanks for that clarification vivache, for some reason I thought plantation was the flat shod style showing and I was looking at videos and somehow didn't even realize there seemed to be an "in between" level of showing to the normal gaits of a regular TWH and the Big Lick.

I have a friend with four TWH mares, strictly for pleasure use, and having ridden them it just astounds me that anyone could think the Big Lick is attractive. How can you not just ENJOY the natural easy going beauty of that TWH gait?


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## vivache

It goes All Day Pleasure, Trail Pleasure, Lite Shod(encompasses ADP and TP, with light weighted shoes), Plantation Shod(Heavy shoes) and Built-up(Pads).

There CAN be padded horses that have not had any issues. My trainer had an ex-padded horse whose legs were normal.. but her teeth required tons of work.

I have only ridden up to lite-shod horses, but their movement, along with pretty, is SO SMOOTH. Granted, he was a racking horse, but.


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## Mike_User

It appears critique of the OP's horse has been exhausted and this discussion has moved on to other things, so this critique thread is being closed. Please begin other discussions in the appropriate forum.


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