# Critique please



## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I see that he is heavy, wide neck and his head is small. But other than that I'm a little lost. I had someone with me at the auction and she told me there wasn't anything major wrong with him before I bid on him. So go ahead and tell me what's wrong and what's right. Sorry about all the mud. The snow is starting to melt and it rained.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

O my gosh he is a hunk!! Can i have him please. More details, how old, how tall, is he broke bla bla lol. He is super handsome. Looks a tiny bit downhill. Tinsy weeeeny bit cow hocked. Other than that i really dont know lol, im not good at confo.


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

I am not good at confo but he looks adorable and what a chunk! Agree with the down hill and his back looks a bit short. But can't wait to see him shed out and muscled up!

Want more details


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

He's 9 or 10. Not registered. I haven't measured him yet, lol. I just got him Saturday. I'll measure him asap. I thought he may be a bit downhill. He's pretty broke.


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

I'm definately not the greatest with conformation...but I can't see anything seriously bad about him. His shorter back..makes him look QH'ish type. I don't think (by looking at the pictures) that he looks overly heavy. His legs look pretty square (to me). I'm almost thinking the butt high might be way he's standing (ie: the ice) and not because he's actually butt high.

I love him. I think you did very well with him. I'm sorry if I missed it earlier..but how tall is he?


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## horsesroqke (Nov 5, 2009)

*Ridden him? If u have u should take a pic with his gear on. Awww what a spunk! *


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Yes I've ridden him once. I'll have to get someone to go out with me : )


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

In terms of a riding horse, the things that work against him are his downhill build, straightness through the stifle, high hock and stifle set and a bit too straight through the knee. 

Overall, that makes engagement more difficult and adds pressure to those knees when he's heavy on his forehand.

I can't comment on the hind view because that doesn't look like a 'natural' stance for him behind.

He's a bit crooked legged in front, but I'm not imagining your planning on GP jumping or horse racing...so it's less of an issue.

Enjoy him!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

He is a bit downhill and a touch back at the knee, it looks like. Something is wonky with his back legs, but that may just be the way he is standing. Plus, I bet his legs will look better after you have a chance to get his feet done. He is a darling and you are right, he is a tank.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

What's so wrong with a downhill build? depends I guess on what you plan to use him for... I'd probably have bid on him too.

His face says to me he could have been proud cut, but I've never had a problem there.


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## kated (Sep 21, 2009)

He is Cute!!!!!!!!! I bet he will look so pretty with his summer coat!


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

westonsma said:


> What's so wrong with a downhill build? depends I guess on what you plan to use him for... I'd probably have bid on him too.
> 
> His face says to me he could have been proud cut, but I've never had a problem there.


How do you tell from a horses face hes proud cut? just out of curiosity


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

^^ thinking same thing.

hes not toed out but he stands with the hinds a little far apart.


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## lauraleo (Aug 1, 2009)

he's a bit downhill which i realise you've been told allready , this can lead to powering to much with his frount end and not engaging with his hind legs , its o too much of a problem it just means it will be harder to get him working from his behind . He also lacks mucscle on his shoulders and where his saddle should go , check his saddle isnt pinching just above the knee pad . Thats about it , he looks a lovely horse =]


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Being downhill is not such a bad thing on a horse that is used for western purposes, it makes it easier for them to drop down in front of a cow and lean into a rope. Not so good for english purposes where working off the hind end is crucial. 



> How do you tell from a horses face hes proud cut?


In all honesty, you really can't. Many geldings who are cut late will have bigger jowels than a gelding cut at an early age. You take 2 horses of similar breeding and conformation but one is a stally and one is a gelding, the stally will have a bigger jaw almost every time. Many people assume that when a horse has a large jaw or throatlatch, that he is either proudcut or was cut late. That is sometimes true but not always.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Being downhill is not such a bad thing on a horse that is used for western purposes, it makes it easier for them to drop down in front of a cow and lean into a rope. Not so good for english purposes where working off the hind end is crucial.


Actually, that's not how it works. You don't want a horse heavy on its forehand even for western purposes. You can't cut a cow if the horse is heavy on his forehand. The horse will be turned inside out and left behind. You can't do reining if the horse is heavy on its forehand. Nor can you make a fast, clean turn on a barrel if the horse is heavy on his forehand.

A downhill build is a fault in any 'riding' horse and should be bred out of QH's. They never used to be downhill built like they are nowadays.




> Many geldings who are cut late will have bigger jowels than a gelding cut at an early age. You take 2 horses of similar breeding and conformation but one is a stally and one is a gelding, the stally will have a bigger jaw almost every time. Many people assume that when a horse has a large jaw or throatlatch, that he is either proudcut or was cut late. That is sometimes true but not always.


What? Where are you getting that information from? Show me the study where testosterone is related to jowl growth in horses.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

smrobs said:


> In all honesty, you really can't. Many geldings who are cut late will have bigger jowels than a gelding cut at an early age. You take 2 horses of similar breeding and conformation but one is a stally and one is a gelding, the stally will have a bigger jaw almost every time. Many people assume that when a horse has a large jaw or throatlatch, that he is either proudcut or was cut late. That is sometimes true but not always.



I've always heard that too. I take it with a grain of salt, but have also seen it


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

almost every QH stud i have ever seen has big jowel muscles.


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## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

my cut late QH has big jowels too.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

ya a QH gelding im looking at, wasnt cut till he was 7 and he has big muscular jowels. a QH gelding that some people borded at the ranch i work at, was gelded late and he had huge jowels.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

OH... I was just looking for a critique as in- he's a horse I'm going to fun shows with. Maybe walk trot, maybe some other things. He's not registered so I can't go far with him if I wanted. As far as him being downhill, I don't plan to do dressage or event. I don't plan to use him on cows, even though he WAS used for that. Got in contact with his old owners. 

His name was actually Jake. He is 11 years old and he's from Minnesota. He was used on their farm to move cows with their 12 year old grandson. They've had him since he was 7. They sold off all their cattle and decided to get rid of the horses as well. So he went through an auction house in Minnesota where he sold for $300. That person brought him to Ohio and kept him until the auction I bought him from. His coggins was done on 7-28. So they had him for about 7 months. 

His main function will be to plow my heavy butt around. I'm 5'7 and 170 pounds and I wanted a horse where I felt like I was 5'7 and 170 (if I'm lucky even lighter). Not one that I felt like I was 6'7 and 280, if you know what I mean. 

I'll try to get some pictures of him standing normally from behind. Farrier said that his left rear leg comes in funny and some shoes might help. But he said he has nice sound hooves. : )

I forgot: Thanks for the comments you guys. I appreciate the input. : )


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

thats awsome that you go in contact with the old owners. He sounds perfect for what you want to do. He is such a handsome boy. If i would of been at that sale i would of gotten into a biding war with you lol. Congrats!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

> His main function will be to plow my heavy butt around. I'm 5'7 and 170 pounds


Where are you getting heavy butt out of that??? You aren't big at all, though I do understand wanting to get on a horse and feel like you are on a HORSE and not at pony.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

lol. I'm hoping to get to 150 by the end of the summer. Been going to the gym 3 or 4 days a week. : )


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

He needs to get some of that weight off him. As mentioned, he's downhill. The hind from the back picture just looks really odd. I'm not sure if that's camera angle, that he's too heavy, winter coat or if he's really got some conformation issues going on. He stands really wide apart in the back and front.

Sounds like you are just going to do basic open show general riding and for that he'll probably do good.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

_Testosterone-
Anabolic effects_ include growth of muscle mass and strength, increased bone density and strength, and stimulation of linear growth and bone maturation.

In horses this usually means a shorter, stockier, more heavily boned, and muscled horse. Testosterone causes the growth plates in a horse to close slower, so when it is gelded it produces less testosterone and this allows him to grow longer. The longer he grows the taller he will get and therefore his jaw size will look proportionally smaller than a shorter earlier gelded animal not to mention when the bones grow, they often become more fine and less massive which feeds into the theory that a gelding will have a smaller jaw than a stallion.

In conclusion testosterone and gelding a horse have a lot to do with its final conformation and overall musculature.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

thank you honeysuga. Great for you ShutUpJoe!


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> _Testosterone-
> _Testosterone causes the growth plates in a horse to *close slower*....than a shorter *earlier* gelded animal


OOPS! Meant faster hehe. Testosterone closes them _faster_, gelding _slows _this and allows them to grow longer. And OOPS again, meant to put_ later_ gelded. Geez could I have effed that up any more? lol


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Actually, that's not how it works. You don't want a horse heavy on its forehand even for western purposes. You can't cut a cow if the horse is heavy on his forehand. The horse will be turned inside out and left behind. You can't do reining if the horse is heavy on its forehand. Nor can you make a fast, clean turn on a barrel if the horse is heavy on his forehand.
> 
> *So you mean to tell me that if a horse is level, and trying to push out of a barrel turn that you'd rather have one pulling just as hard with his front end as he is pushing with his rear? A downhill build does NOT always mean the horse is heavy on the front end. A bigger rear and smaller front end build will allow easier lunging from the rear end, due to a lighter front end. I would assume that if a horse had a bigger front end, without the larger rear to push with, the rear would be less balanced and wobbly. Think greyhound vs hyena...*
> 
> ...





Honeysuga said:


> _Testosterone-_
> _Anabolic effects_ include growth of muscle mass and strength, increased bone density and strength, and stimulation of linear growth and bone maturation.
> 
> *I edited your comment there, below, to say what you meant to say.. lol!*
> ...


Thank you, HoneySuga... much appreciated!


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## Rule of Reason (Feb 11, 2010)

Honeysuga said:


> _Testosterone-
> Anabolic effects_ include growth of muscle mass and strength, increased bone density and strength, and stimulation of linear growth and bone maturation.
> 
> In horses this usually means a shorter, stockier, more heavily boned, and muscled horse. Testosterone causes the growth plates in a horse to close slower, so when it is gelded it produces less testosterone and this allows him to grow longer. The longer he grows the taller he will get and therefore his jaw size will look proportionally smaller than a shorter earlier gelded animal not to mention when the bones grow, they often become more fine and less massive which feeds into the theory that a gelding will have a smaller jaw than a stallion.
> ...


Please cite your references if you're going to do something like this. Unless this is all your own personal wisdom.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

All mammals have testosterone influenced differences in musculature as testosterone has direct anabolic effects on muscle and bone tissue. 

"The myosin heavy chain (MyHC) fiber-type distribution in the adult masseter is sexually dimorphic and is influenced by hormones such as testosterone. These testosterone-dependent changes cause a phenotype switch from slower to faster fiber-types in the male"

Developmental and Functional Considerations of Masseter Muscle Partitioning

Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

but back on track- to the OP, he looks like a lovely guy, definitely can't wait to see him with some miles on him. That tail looks like it will be a thing of beauty when you unleash it!!


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