# how to cure kicking



## kountrygirl (Jun 2, 2013)

I have a 6 year old mare who is a danger by throwing her back leg out to kick anyone who attempts to get near her back end. The last farrier had to lay her down to trim her back feet. I asked him what I should do to cure this and he suggested to shoot her. Can she be corrected by lunging her and by keep moving her back end? I'm desperate!!!


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

No reason to put a bullet in her for that. Take either a dressage or a shorter lungewhip and rub it around her butt, back legs, up by her udders, etc. When she kicks, hit her with the whip and shank her (don't need to use a chain, but jerk her lead). Eventually you'll be able to rub the whip all over without the kicking.
Then you have to actually risk yourself..Walk behind JUST out of her reach and if she kicks, hit her with the whip (preferably with someone at her head to shank her as well). Eventually you'll get closer and closer. If you absolutely have to walk behind her with no room to be out of kicking range, you need to walk as close as you can, like rubbing yourself against her as you walk around. If you're that close, she doesn't have enough momentum behind that to do anything but push.

But, you may want to find someone experienced with such if you aren't very experienced yourself. I wish you luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Kick chain. Take it off while riding or when she's turned out.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

A horse will never kick their lead mare. I walk behind and between my horses all the time without any worries of getting kicked. As long as they know I am there, I can trust them. 

You have to establish firm leadership. I would go out and work the horse in the roundpen daily. She should back up on command, move her hindquarters away from you, and you should start desensitizing her hind end. Get a plastic bag and rub it on her (attached to a stick), or rub her all over with the whip. 

I would teach her to ground drive as well. If she goes to kick out at you, get after her with the whip. 

Is she bad with everyone or just the farrier? Does she warn before she kicks and under what situations does she get aggressive?

I think this is a training issue.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Yeah, it probably is but if she's not safe around people something has to be done that will work NOW while the training issue is being fixed.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Iseul said:


> No reason to put a bullet in her for that. Take either a dressage or a shorter lungewhip and rub it around her butt, back legs, up by her udders, etc. When she kicks, hit her with the whip and shank her (don't need to use a chain, but jerk her lead). Eventually you'll be able to rub the whip all over without the kicking.
> *Then you have to actually risk yourself..Walk behind JUST out of her reach and if she kicks, hit her with the whip (preferably with someone at her head to shank her as well).* Eventually you'll get closer and closer. If you absolutely have to walk behind her with no room to be out of kicking range, you need to walk as close as you can, like rubbing yourself against her as you walk around. If you're that close, she doesn't have enough momentum behind that to do anything but push.
> 
> But, you may want to find someone experienced with such if you aren't very experienced yourself. I wish you luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
*DO NOT do this. * There is nothing more foolish than snapping a whip while you're looking down both barrels. She could just as easily back up a step and nail you before you have time to move out of the way, regardless of having someone at her head or not.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

palogal said:


> Yeah, it probably is but if she's not safe around people something has to be done that will work NOW while the training issue is being fixed.


THAT does not work. Nothing will come in one training session, not can you fix it until you actually fix it. Everyone needs to know she's dangerous and to stay away, that's it.

I personally feel as though kicking is a simple issue to fix and it doesn't take terribly long.

There is no NOW with training, everything takes time, and nothing is an exception.

I fixed the cowkicking my mare did within two weeks. She doesn't dare kick at me or anyone else if I'm around because I beat her *** for it.

ETA, when I walk there, I usually have the horse tied when I do that, sorry I didn't specify that in my original post. The horse can only go so far back and still kick while they're tied, THAT is where you stand. If need be back the horse until it's almost at the end of the tie lead and then go from there if the judgement isn't great on the one standing behind. Hasnt backfired on me, but with anything, you do have to be prepared to move quickely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

A kick chain will punish the kicking and in most cases stop it within an hour or so. The respect issue takes longer to fix and goes well beyond the kicking.
"beating her ***" is not training. 
The horses that generally try to kick me are babies that aren't quite sure what's going on. Moving their feet fast and furious for a few minutes makes them absolutely sure I am not to be challenged - which is how you teach respect. Not with beating.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

totally agree with your method palogal but can i just add that with a kick chain the horse will teach itself to quit kicking and no one is close enough to be in danger


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## kountrygirl (Jun 2, 2013)

How do you attach a kick chain on a kicking horse? I sort of like my head and face.


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## kountrygirl (Jun 2, 2013)

I can already use the whip snapping all around her back legs, rump, utter area, and belly. I also can put a tarp on her rump and run it down her back legs. But, when it comes to the farrier, WATCH OUT!!!


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

kountrygirl said:


> How do you attach a kick chain on a kicking horse? I sort of like my head and face.


Have someone hold her for you and put it on one hind leg or the other. Take your time and stand beside her hip so she can't get you.

You could also sedate her.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

kountrygirl said:


> I can already use the whip snapping all around her back legs, rump, utter area, and belly. I also can put a tarp on her rump and run it down her back legs. But, when it comes to the farrier, WATCH OUT!!!


 
It's a possibility she has some pain in her hips and it's uncomfortable for her to hold her foot. Perhaps he can use a cradle so she can rest the foot. My 7 year old had an injury and she started to kick the farrier in her recovery. My farrier used a cradle and took some extra time with her and she was much more reasonable. She has since recovered and is her same well behaved self.
OR she's just a brat that needs to learn respect


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This is not a 'green' horse. This is not a horse that needs slow, careful schooling and teaching. This is a *spoiled horse!*

Is she broke to tie solidly? If not, start there. Then, with the cooperation of a farrier or other knowledgeable person, teach her to let you handle her hind feet.

I would use a 'Scotch rope' to start with. [A Scotch Rope is a 25 foot long, soft, heavy, cotton rope with a loop in one end.] Make a large loop that goes over the horse's head and let it rest right in front of the horse's shoulder. Take the long end of the rope and 'sack ' her out with it. Get her used to it being between her hind legs and all around them from every angle. Then, have her step across the rope with one hind foot and come around to that side and the rope will rest under her pastern. Use the rope to pick up her foot and bring it forward. When she accepts having both hind feet brought forward and up off of the ground, see if she will let your farrier pick her hind foot up out of the Scotch rope and handle it. Most horses will but some REALLY spoiled ones will go back to kicking it away from the person.

If she still wants to kick, teach her that kicking hurts -- a lot. Put a lip chain on her and in one session, she will stop kicking. Use the Scotch rope to pick up her hind foot for safety reasons. If she kicks out --- you jerk hard. Timing is everything. We have inherited some really dangerous kickers, both horses and mules. When they are already very spoiled, it take a lot different approach. In 50 years, only one has not quit kicking with the use of a lip chain. She was an extremely dangerous horse that had hurt people including breaking a woman's leg. Her hind feet could only be handled by laying her down or Scotched with her hind leg tied up. We sold her to a 'pack string' with full disclosure and they treated her like all of the spoiled pack mules they already had. The spoiled mules had nothing on her.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Cherie said:


> This is not a 'green' horse. This is not a horse that needs slow, careful schooling and teaching. This is a *spoiled horse!*
> 
> .


 I thought so too until she said that the horse ONLY kicks the farrier.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I would like to know what they have done previously when she does this? THis horse needs to think her life is OVER the instant she goes to kick. Unfortunately, it sounds like she has been allowed to behave like this, so it will be even harder to stop. If one of mine so much as LOOKS like they are going to kick, all hel breaks lose. I have also been known to put the toe of my boot as hard as I can into their belly when they try-while screaming and carrying on like a maniac. Most do not do this again. And, the look on their faces is priceless. Doesn't have to go on long,(3 seconds is the saying....) but HAS to be quick and a HUGE reaction.
So, what did your farrier do the first time this brat tried to kick him? My guess is he backed off.....because perhaps he was afraid the owner (OP) would be angry if he disciplines the horse. My farriers are of the same mindset I am. Kicking kills, and it needs to STOP. Right. Now.

At this point, I think you have gotten some really good advice from Cherie. But, if the horse ONLY does it for the farrier-the farrier has to be allowed to "man-up"....and react as the owner says.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I worked with a big gelding that allowed grooming only so far then would fire a shot. Using a knotted halter I made a point of triggering this reaction. Every time he kicked I yanked his head around hard making his front end move. When he'd let me groom his hip, he was rewarded with scratching his itchies. My brush was soft so it wasn't hurting his skin. It took about an hour before he kept his foot on the ground. He was left alone for a while and I started again. His foot never came up so he was rewarded with lots of scratching. Nothing like bug season to help achieve this. Once we'd sorted this out he was a gent about having his hooves cleaned and trimmed.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

use a wide nylon dog collar with about 10 to 12 inches of medium heavy chain on it stand up against the hip and slowly reach down and hook the collar right above the hock if you stay up against the hip and leg you will feel when the horse is about to move


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## kountrygirl (Jun 2, 2013)

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have had this horse about a year, the man I got her from said she did not kick or bite, yes....bite too. I feel she was very abused and decided to keep and work on her, so here we are. I have never had a horse with such disrespect problems, so didn't know where to start. I started watching rfdtv and learned to teach them to respect you. Well, she respects me, but everyone that comes near her, has to do the same. My farrier was "man-up", he started with running her in small circles and kicking her in the belly, put the lip chain on, and finally running her in circles to get her to lay down. She was just so stubborn and "spoiled" and wanted her way or no way. 
I will be the first to admit that I need to spend more time with her, and that is my duty this summer. I see that now, and will keep you posted on my progress.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

hook a medium heavy chain to a wide dog collar stay up close beside the horses hip and leg and hook the dog collar right above the hock if you stay close you will feel when the horse is fixing to move


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Yup! She's just spoiled -- really badly spoiled on hoof handling. Yes! It is totally a training and a respect issue.

And -- here we go again..... She was abused. This is doubtful but even if it is true, it is no excuse. Her reaction and responses to you started the first day you interacted with her. That should have been the first day of her learning to respect handlers and other people.

Your farrier might have had the right idea -- sort of -- but he did not get a good RESPONSE because he only got her 'on the fight' and got her to be REACTIVE. He 'over-did' it in a 'I'll show her who is boss' type of moment. It was probably in anger and not with great thought or finesse.

YOU -- the owner -- has to TRAIN her to be RESPECTFUL to everyone. YOU have to provide the consequences that actually work. These consequences have to keep her THINKING and NOT get her into a REACTIVE mode. It is not your farrier's job to train her. But, when anyone starts wailing on a horse with a whip or a stick or starts yanking a lip chain, all that happens is that the horse gets 'on the fight' or 'on the run'. A REACTIVE HORSE IS NOT LEARNING OR THINKING ABOUT ANYTHING POSITIVE -- PERIOD. Their brain shuts down all of the actual thinking. They either have to be beaten or hurt into submission or they just get worse and hurt someone or hurt themselves. This is just how they are. They are 'hard wired' to be this way. The few people (some post regularly on this forum) that actually understand horse behavior, have quiet, respectful horses that behave well for EVERYONE -- and still 'like' them.

A properly used lip chain only causes a horse to stop what it is doing. A little harder tug only causes a horse to jerk its head up and back up and THINK. Properly using one shows a horse what it has to do to get the reward. The reward ONLY needs to be relief from the 'discomfort' of the tightened lip chain. Yanking and jerking hard on one only gets a negative REACTION and is counter-productive.

I think everyone should learn how to properly use a lip chain. I have used them for 50 years. During that time I have NEVER found a horse that could not be taught to load into a trailer with one. I have only found a few that needed more than a properly used lip chain to correct aggressive behavior including charging at people much more dangerously than the stud in the 'Buck' movie.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Kounty girl- I think the first thing you need to figure out is whether this horse was 1) abused and fearful (and kicking as a fear response) or 2) aggressive and kicking because she is pushy. 3) or acting pushy because she was never taught what the correct behavior is. 

The next issue I have is with how the farrier treats her! A farrier should NEVER kick the horse in the belly! I have seen plenty of trainers kick horses and I do not see how it is productive to training or safe... If she really was an aggressive horse and he goes to kick her in the belly- she would be kicking him in the head! This tells me she is not really being aggressive but either 1) does not know the proper behavior or 2) is terrified of the farrier and kicking in self defense.

Watch how horses fight in the field- the aggressive horse will kick to make an impact and hold its ground. The less submissive horse will kick and run in self defense. If this horse is trying to get away from the farrier, then this is a scared horse. 

If she is kicking in self defense- the more she gets beat on (or rough handled by the farrier) the more defensive she is going to get. So beating it out of her or jerking on chains will only make her behavior worse. 

The farrier school I went to had the "slap the horse every time they move motto." As a result EVERY SINGLE ONE of their horses would fight the farrier or kick or attempt to sit on you. Our instructor would take a horse out of the field and chase it around and beat it with the rasp to try and make it stand still. Let me just say that after that do you really think the horse is going to stand for his hooves to be done? No. That horse is going to fight like his life is at stake! 

If she doesn't kick you at other times and only kicks for the farrier, then you need to find a different farrier (as she will never trust the person you are using), and you need to keep working on building her trust and sedate her for farrier work. I would much rather see a horse go 8-12 weeks between trims, and in the meantime you start working with her hooves yourself or hire a trainer to come out and do a few sessions.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

As a 2 year old our horse was a kicker and rearer, specifically when bathing, fly spray and lunging. If he decided to kick or rear, he would get an aggressive lunging session of me sending him around and jerking his front end to face me, and make him go the other way.

Now he rarely threatens a kick and if he does, he gets a loud shout, smack, or a kick back. My old 4H leader owned a kicking horse, and within a few times of being kicked back he stopped. 

I would take a different approach is he/she was abused though


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