# HELP: Severe Seperation Anxiety



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I wish I could give you a magic answer but I know of none.

Geldings like this are not all that unusual. When we get one, we just sell them. We have too many horses to be able to deal with them and drugging horses is not what we do.

This is the main reason that we never mix mares and geldings and try very hard to not put them across a fence from each other unless it is 'hot'. We do not even like to do it then if we can keep from it. 

There is one thing you can try. I know people with barrel horses and roping horses with anxiety issues and have 'heard' quite a few H/J and Dressage horse trainers use it. It is a long acting drug (actually 2 different ones) that last 3 to 4 weeks each. A lot of geldings 'fall in love' with a mare but only a few fall as badly as yours.

One is Resurpine and the other is Fluphenazine. [I believe they are anti-psychotic drugs in human use and are used in institutions to keep patients more 'calm'.] You can ask an equine Vet about them. I have not personally used them because if a horse does not have the disposition to train well, I just sell them. I do not sell horses on drugs (these kinds or pain killers) so I have not tried them. But, MANY professional trainers and quite a few amateurs that haul and show use them all of the time on hyper horses and horses with anxiety issues that they can't avoid. They are so long acting in the brain that they do not test if a horse has not had a dose real recently, so I suspect quite a few show horses show on them. Resurpine works better on some horses and fluphenazine works better on others. Horses do not act sedated on either. I believe they even give them to some race horses.

That would be the only thing I would know that might work or a horse as bad as yours. Like I said, I just sell them because there are too many without issues and we train them to sell.


----------



## Jessmaylilah (Jan 21, 2012)

I completely understand where you are coming from - I have given selling him a great deal of thought also. It seems like keeping him is a lot more trouble then it is worth, but away from her and before the attachment started he was truly an angel both under saddle and on the ground. It is the mare that we would love to sell, she is irritable at the best of times and plain nasty at the worst. We have started calling her 'incorrigible' because nothing seems to make a difference - the last person to ride her ended up in hospital thanks to her rearing habit that we have been unable to break, and she lost her balance and fell on the rider. We get horses off the track and try to give them a second chance as pleasure or competition horses, and most of the time they turn out great, but some of them, like this mare, are failures from the beginning and not worth the time or effort. She is also no good to us as a broodmare, as her bad temperament makes us nervous to try to put her to any stallion.
The problem is, how do you (in good conscience) sell a horse like that? I couldn't morally sell her to someone who wasn't aware of her vices, and anyone who was aware wouldn't buy her. All this considered, it seems silly to sell the horse who truly is coming along nicely (or was, anyway) and has a personality of gold, and keep the mare from hell. It is not in me to dog a horse, or to sell her to anyone I thought might do so, but it seems pointles to keep her.
I have considered chucking her out on another property and just leaving her there to live out her days - but as it is now day 4 and the gelding has yet to settle, I am worried he never will. I have never dealt with seperation anxiety this bad in a horse before so really I am at a loss.

I have considered drugging him. It would be the first and only time I have drugged a horse for non-medicinal purposes, but I feel that he is putting himself in enough danger to warrant it. The main problem I suppose with this is that most of the stuff I have heard of needs to be constantly re-injected/re-administered for it to have a prolonged effect, and it is **** expensive too.
Maybe I could get rid of the mare to pasture and give him something just for a week or so to help him settle? 
Has anyone had experience with these kinds of drugs? I can't say I know much about it myself.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

That is why I suggested Resurpine or Fluphenazine. They each last 3 to 4 weeks. You only have to give them about once a month.

If you remove the mare, make sure he is somewhere else when you do. Like, take him to some other place. Then move her off of the place and return him a little later.

If a horse like him sees the mare leave, he will frantically run the fence and whinny in the direction he saw her go. If she is just 'gone' when he is returned to his pen, he is like weaning a foal that did not see the mother leave. 

By the way, that is how we wean foals and they whinny 2 or 3 times looking for their mothers and then they are quiet and happy. We 'sneak' the mothers off when the foal is eating and when they are done eating -- she just is not there.


----------



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

As a race horse he has always been around other horses. I think he is scared to be on his own. In the wild the lead mare offers security to the others as she knows where good grazing is and water, etc. Altho not in the wild, the gelding felt more secure with the mare's presence. Horses need to be with other, to touch, to share, to get bossed around. Isolating them in a stall or paddock goes against the herd instinct. The herd, an important social group, is how they protect themselves from predators. In you gelding's mind he's afraid he will be dinner. Since the situation has caused so much stress, the weight loss could be due to ulcers. Can you not put the mare in with him during turnout? It will likely reduce his stress level and help him regain the lost weight. You can get him used to the mare leaving by leaving a little distance then returning, leaving again.....like a yo yo, extending the leaving a few steps farther each time. What this does to him is raise and lower his stress up and down, up and down until he has to relax. That's the way the brain works.


----------



## Jessmaylilah (Jan 21, 2012)

Sorry, I should have clarified - when I said we left him alone, I meant without the mare. There are still several other horses in the adjacent yards and paddocks, just without the mare which is his main attatchment. 

Yes sorry Cherie I think I misread your post the first time - I havn't heard of these before, but I may ring my vet tomorrow and ask about them. If they last as long as you say it should definitely be worth a shot, hopefully I would only need it for the initial few days/weeks until he gets used to her not being around.
Yes if I were to do that I would move the mare straight from the neighbours place, I wouldn't bring her back first and let him see her again. The main thing I worry about is him getting hurt again, but I guess I really can't do much to prevent it. I will have a look into those drugs tomorrow.
Is there any possibilty of...I don't know, training or encouraging him out of the behaviour? It seems impossible to me, but there is plenty I do not know and have not heard of...I have had other people suggest rewarding him with food when she isn't around to make him associate that time as a positive experience, but he just doesn't eat without her! I guess the not eating is a big probem in itself, I can't let him out to pasture like this, he would surely go through a fence, and he is not eating anything in the stable or yard without her there. It's like a vicious circle in a way...


----------



## Cintillate (Jan 8, 2012)

I wish I could help you but have no experience with this level of anxiety. Can he touch other horses or just see them? If he can just see then he is probably really lonely. Have you tried introducing the mare to him and observe their reaction. Of course the worries would be he would get injured from her and more easily since he is already and could get more attached but keeping them separate seems just the same. I keep all of my horses together. It is natural. I use to worry about my mare pulverizing my other horses because she is also aggressive but the other horses adjusted. They do kick and nip and chase each other but that is normal in a herd of horses. Think you could try to introduce them slowly to each other? You never know the mare may learn manners from him.


----------



## Jessmaylilah (Jan 21, 2012)

Hi Cintillate,
Yes, he has contact with the other horses. I had to move the young gelding in the yard that was sharing his fence because Flash's behviour was setting him off, but I replaced the young one with the old retired boy who doesn't seem to notice his antics at all.
He also has the ponies on the other side of him, he can't touch these guys but they are only a few metres away.
Then the broodie is just across from him (maybe 3-4 metres in distance) next to where the mare was, and the other horses are all paddocked within sight.

Yes the two were paddocked together for a time, he is much much happier out in the paddock with her despite the nicks and bruises he comes in with, but she cannot be stabled in with him due to the confined space and her agressive nature seems to be a lot worse in the yards then in the paddocks. 
Leaving him out with her permanantly is not really an option either, she cannot be left in a paddock after dark as for some reason she completely disregards the fences at night and has run through them a number of times.

I tell you, between the two of them!!


----------



## Cintillate (Jan 8, 2012)

Haha yes, mixing horses is a challenge. A soap opera in the making...I'm lucky mine get along fairly well. I think the mare may be a bit territorial that could cause some of the problem. Have you stopped keeping them together? Have they been together in the yards? How did that go?

I have a video here that might help you...I hope. It is kind of long and the situation is a bit different but the similarities are that the gelding is really trying to get to the mare.
horseawareness's Channel - YouTube


----------



## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

This is blunt, and may offend some. I would give the mare away. Free horses always attract someone. Maybe she'll get a home breeding more incorrigable babies, but honestly, then she's someone else's problem. And she's off your feed bills and gives your gelding a chance to recover.


----------



## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

One more thought... how about a goat? I have a neighbor that has a goat and a horse, and they are never more than a few feet apart when grazing in a large pasture...

In the meantime, I would not bring the mare anywhere near him... just keep offering good hay and supplements...

Good luck on this difficult situation.


----------



## trixie1128 (Nov 21, 2011)

Take this with several grains of salt, as I am just getting back into horses after a long break and I'm a dog (*not* horse) trainer. You could try to desensitize him to watching the mare leave. We do this when dogs get separation anxiety when their owners leave.

You go through the steps of her leaving for short amounts of time like taking her 1 step. If he doesn't freak out, he gets whatever he likes best and she comes back. You never take her further than he can handle while exhibiting mild concerned behavior before the mare returns. Looking for her=okay. Calling, pacing, charging, ect= too much. It helps if you give them some work to do in the mean time. (Some won't be able to focus so no punishing if they can't.)

I can tell you with dogs this is a very, very, very long process. It is almost never fixed and only managed with lots of training.

With horses, it may help. But, as I said, I don't really know that it will.


----------



## pkelchner (Dec 25, 2011)

Horse are a herd animal and should not be left by themselves in pasture. It makes a horse lonely, sad, lose weight, get sick and they can die. They need to be with other horses just like people need to be in human contact day to day. 
You can get a goat or even a small pony to keep him company in his pasture. 
Is there a way to take down the fences and let all the horses together? 
Just a thought.
Pattie


----------



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

This is a saying I coined myself & I stand by it "Mares make geldings do stupid things".


----------



## HarleyWood (Oct 14, 2011)

my Gelding Did this when we stabled him but he would be fine after we saddled him other wise he would be a freak, now that hes home i have 2 younger geldings and one is attached to him and i take him away when they are eatting, they watch but are fine. they will whinny once or twice in an hour. when i take him back my one gelding will whinny over and over until he reaches us but then will walk back when hes back in. ive also taken my other horse out for a few nights to a round pen that you could half see the pasture and let him spend a few nights in there it helped alot so i could take him out without each other spazing. 

maybe put her in the pasture next to him and then after a few days move her another over and do this for a while if it doesnt stop, get rid of the mare..


----------



## arrowsaway (Aug 31, 2011)

Ace80908 said:


> This is blunt, and may offend some. I would give the mare away. Free horses always attract someone. Maybe she'll get a home breeding more incorrigable babies, but honestly, then she's someone else's problem. And she's off your feed bills and gives your gelding a chance to recover.


I am also going to be blunt. Doing as Ace suggested would be pretty irresponsible. why should the OP sell the mare to possibly breed when those foals stand a chance of inheriting her less than pleasant disposition? there's already a flood of homeless, abused, and unwanted horses in this country, let's not add to the problem. if she really is that mean and violent, it's best to put her down rather than contribute those traits to a gene pool. before the PETA folks get all fired up, I'm a veterinary assistant and a great lover of animals, but even I know some can't be saved - especially mean horses that can turn dangerous. 

as for your gelding, OP, is there no way he can be turned out with other geldings? [sorry if you've already covered this, I skimmed through the posts.] I know he may be able to see and/or touch noses with other horses, but he needs to run with them, graze with them, groom them, etc... He needs to feel like part of a herd. It sounds like he has developed almost an OCD because he's not being satisfied psychologically. if giving him the opportunity to be part of a herd is not possible, and selling the mare is not an option either, then as much as you like the horse, I would re-home him to someone who can fulfill this need. that's really what is in his best interest.


----------



## Jessmaylilah (Jan 21, 2012)

Hi guys, thanks for all the advice  I will try and address everyone in order.
I am considering giving her away, but I wouldn't do it as a broodmare only as a pet/lawn mower. 
Ace - A goat isn't possible because of his yard fences, not sure if you can see properly in the photo but it would be very easy for a goat to escape with those fences.
Trixie - Not too sure about that, seems to me like it would be just teasing him, I don't think he would really learn anything from that as there is no way to reward him when she leaves and make him see it as a positive thing. May give it a try, but not sure.
Pkelchner - We have tried this, he has no attachment to the others and being with them does not satisfy him, only the mare. He is more likely to just stir the others up with his behaviour and cause an injury if I put him with someone else.

Waresbear - I completely agree with you - usually I keep mares and geldings on seperate properties as it brings nothing but trouble! However we have had problems with the agistment properties so we had to bring her and another mare home, starting to wish I had just left her at the problem agistment as I wouldnt be in this situation if I had!

HarleyWood - They can't share a fence - he will go through the fence to get to her. That's how he origionaly injured himself. So adjacent pastures are out of the question unfortunately.

Arrowsaway - You make a good point and I won't pretend I havn't considered it. She definitely won't be used as a riding horse by us again, and certianly not as a broodmare, she is obviously a useless companion horse, so really she hasn't got much use. I am not a supporter of euthanizing horses without dire need, but she is dangerous to people and other horses and keping her even at an agistment will cost me money.
It may sound heartless and harsh, but it is definitely something I have considered doing. However, she was origionally my sisters horse who gave her to me after she couldn't handle her, so that makes it trickier - my sister is very unlikely to agree but I can only try.
In response to turning him out with others, he really doesn't care much for the others and it doesn't seem to make a difference. 

The problem is sort of moot at the moment anyway, we have had some torrential rain this week and everywhere is flooding (Oh please not a repeat of last years January QLD floods, God no!) so I had to bring the mare home anyway (we are on higher ground) so he is happy and eating once more and as attatched as ever *sigh* and now I feel like a monster for putting him through 5 days of torture only to bring her back! Ughhh. Horses!


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I also vote for giving the mare away. Hopefully she won't be bred. Be honest about her "problems." But I bet someone would take her as a free project. Euthanasia is also an option. Better and more responsible honestly. I guess it just depends on if you think she's salvageable or not. If she's truly dangerous and not safe......

Why get rid of the gelding if he's a nice horse? He would be the one I would keep.


----------



## pkelchner (Dec 25, 2011)

Well I am glad you decided to keep the mare so he can have a pasture mate. Are you able to keep them together in one area so he doesn't get so depressed? I hope he works out for you.

Pattie


----------



## Jessmaylilah (Jan 21, 2012)

Hello everyone, decided to post a quick update on how things are going with this situation.
The mare was given away to an experienced rider (who tried her out and knows of ALL her issues) who thinks she may be able to turn her around. She was well informed about the specifics of this mares nature and behaviour, and I would never have let her go had she not been. I also asked her new owner to sign a document stating that she was aware of the risks involved with this horse prior to taking her on so that I was protected if anything should happen.
Last I heard they are doing alright, she is having the same difficulties we had with her but she is confident she will work them out in time.

Flash is doing much, much, much better! After the mare left he failed to settle after a few days so we got him his very own miniature horse companion. Surprisingly, he loves the little fella and is happy to be stabled and paddocked with him, though not to the level he was with the mare (He can be taken out to be worked now and the pony can be taken from him without TOO much fuss) so all in all a great outcome. He has put on a heap of condition now that he is not constantly stressed out, I will attach some photos below.

I just want to thank everyone on here for their contributions to this unique issue, a combination of the suggestions made on here and some things people in RL mentioned lead me to to the decision I made and I am very happy with the outcome. So thanks guys!!












And a little comparison photo. Right hand side is when this whole thing peaked and left hand side is a few days ago.








\


THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE!!!


----------



## Mollysue (Feb 13, 2012)

Have you considered getting him a goat companion, many tracks have them for calming.


----------



## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Can we see pics of the mini? The combination sounds cute!


----------



## Jessmaylilah (Jan 21, 2012)

Yes ofcourse, here are some photos of the Mini. He is still unnamed, so any suggestions on that would be great! I haven't yet taken any of the two together, but I'll try and get some cute ones tomorrow.
He is just tiny, he wears a 3 foot rug (To Flash's 6 foot 3 inch) and a foal halter (mini size was too small!) but so cute and so friendly.


----------



## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Aww!!!! He looks like a little doll! Names? umm Tibbs, Dandy, Little Apache, Tinker, Rojo, Taffy? I'm not so good with names..


----------



## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Here's a link to some names, Miniature Horse Names...Have fun naming him!


----------



## Jessmaylilah (Jan 21, 2012)

A couple more photos, some better ones of the mini and then a few of him and Flash.


----------

