# Reward Based Equine Training/Learning



## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

This morning I watched the last of a series of videos on the rehabilitation of Mystic who was deemed an untrainable Mustang.

I think there may be more coming in the series not sure. But I did watch all on her site.

I was more than impressed and learned a great deal of useful information.

I'm wondering if anyone here on the forum has watched the series and if they have any comments about it they'd be willing to share..


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I was curious enough to go to her site but didn't see the series. I'll have to go back and look for it.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

If her name is searched on YouTube, a lot of old videos come up. Some are pretty ragtag. She has really done something in the last few years.

To access the Mystic Experiment series, go to her website, then scroll down to the Mystic Experiment and click on Check Out The Episodes......or just click on this link. The Mystic Experiment

I have been puzzling for a couple years on +P training, reading and watching some videos, and nothing has really clicked with what I really wanted. The Mystic Experiment did.

And if you read About on the website, this gal began her paid training career in junior high. Three time Mustang Makeover champion. All done with pressure release back then until she "discovered" +P.

Some may be turned off by her at first but she becomes infectious in a short time.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

Thank you for the link, its looks interesting and when I have some time later I will definitely be watching the videos. I like to use a lot of positive reinforcement when training so I’m always eager to learn more and see other methods.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I'll add that the Mystic Experiment is not just another gentling and training of just another Mustang.

Mystic had been through multiple professional Mustang trainers who had deemed her dangerous and untrainable. And what made the series even more compelling to me is that Mystic was to be rehabilitated entirely at liberty in a large field and no round pen.

Maddy has also gentled and trained two Zebras which is compelling to me as I had thought they were near untrainable. She has even taken them on the road for demonstrations.

So Maddy's approach is more of an entire philosophy rather than a method as such.

I'll further mention that to really understand the approaches being used with Mystic, the first introductory video needs to be watched which is the longest at almost an hour.

And yes, she is running an online business, but to me she deserves all the success she achieves.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

This morning I watched How To Prevent Trauma In Horses. To me, it seems to be an important training video so decided to post.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Here's a few random quotes from Maddy pulled out of one of her blogs in no particular order.

Ending a training session abruptly when using positive reinforcement is negative punishment.
Ending a training session abruptly when using negative reinforcement is the biggest reward (release of pressure) you can offer the horse.
In negative reinforcement, you must maintain control of the behavior. This means that _if you begin asking for a behavior you must stick with the escalation of pressure until the horse responds in some way._ A good trainer will reward the horse’s smallest tries towards the correct behavior and be able to identify these in order to set the horse up for success and avoid frustration and fear. But either way, you must stick with the pressure until the horse shows a sign of responding correctly, otherwise you will accidentally reward the resistance.

In positive reinforcement training, however, if the animal isn’t getting the behavior, no problem. The animal is given the choice to simply perform a different behavior or a smaller approximation with no aversive consequence. I was shocked and impressed with this new concept as I saw it appear throughout my time with the marine mammals. Of course, why hadn’t I thought of that before now! The trainers called this concept the “redirection technique.”

A *discriminative stimulus (Sd)* is a _learned signal for a specific conditioned (trained) behavior that discriminates one learned behavior from another._ For example, you lean forward and wave your finger and the horse backs up.

*In negative reinforcement training, the Sd is introduced at the beginning of teaching the behavior, in positive reinforcement training, the Sd is introduced at ~80% mastery of the behavior”*

Fast forward 10 years or so of countless hours studying, training, and learning from the school of hard knocks and my career was in full force. I could get my once wild mustangs to perform tackless and bridleless in front of thousands after a mere 100 days of training (and human touch). I could train ZEBRAS to perform at liberty. I was traveling all over the WORLD teaching others my methods (something I had NEVER imagined!). _* But there was still something missing.*_

This new business of rehabilitation I found to be much more difficult than starting with a fresh wild one. I found mustangs like Willie especially difficult, who had been so_* shut down to pressure for so long that I had to use more than uncomfortable amounts*_ to get them responding again to lighter pressure. I also came across some particularly aggressive equines, including a young zebra stud colt named “Zeus.” that tested my current training toolbox. With these animals,* I seemed to reach the limits of negative reinforcement training* and was willing to try anything to help them…


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Reading articles this morning online about +P in the workplace.

Strikes me that there is a wide misunderstanding of positive reinforcement, what it is, and how it actually works.

For instance, I just read in the article that in terms of a paycheck, that may be the primary motivator to get out of bed in the morning to go to work.

I see that as an action to avoid negative punishment in the form of taking something desirable away, source of income. They'd lose their job if they didn't go to work. So that's avoiding an aversive.

Further, although adding a pay bonus or days off may feel good to an employee at the time received, it does not engage the brain activities that positive reinforcement engages when properly applied.

When properly applied, positive reinforcement turns on the seeking system in the brain which is experienced as fun.

The period between a bridge signal indicating that a reward is coming turns on the seeking system in anticipation of the reward.

After a number of repetitions, the activity that brings on the reward becomes pleasurable or fun in and of itself. The employee will then engage in the activity beyond any perceived requirements for being rewarded. They will do it simply because it's fun and 'feels' good.

I just skimmed a few article on +P in the workplace and it doesn't seem anyone understands much about +P. There's just so much more to it than offering a reward for a desirable behavior.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

So, I watched the first 2 videos in the Mystic Experiment. I really enjoy Maddy, although I thought I would end up skipping the part in the beginning where she describes how positive reinforcement worked, targeting, etc. I ended up listening to it because I found her engaging. I will definitely continue to watch the series and am interested in seeing how she plans on 'mixing' positive and negative reinforcement, as that has to be done carefully. I especially enjoy the part where she talks on her philosophy at the end of each video. 
trailscout, I believe you mean +r instead of +P? +R usually indicates positive reinforcement and +P would indicate positive punishment. An employee is definitely avoiding punishment of losing his job when he gets out of bed, but in the end going to work is a conditioned response that is primarily reinforced by his paycheck. Although they may grow to enjoy their job and develop an intrinsic motivation to work, in the end this response was conditioned by the paycheck, and if he were to stop receiving it, he probably would no longer work at the job and would seek another. There is definitely a lot more to +r than just receiving a reward and so many things play into it, such as the seeking system and engagement received as you mentioned. So many people just grab a clicker and start training with it without understanding the science behind it, and when they create a frustrated, treat mugging horse, they dismiss clicker training altogether. I love that you are actually researching it, I wish more people would do that.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Oh shoot! Yes, big fat typo or brain whatever in my first opening sentence of the last post. Definitely meant +R. Oh well......

I was right with you on the first video. Being fairly familiar with the four quadrants I also started to skip that part, but something kept me watching. I didn't even skip it on the second time through.

On a geological time scale, Maddy is a child compared to me, but so advanced in so many other ways. Yes, very very engaging, to me at least also.

Here is a short five minute video on the seeking system I watched this morning. It is about humans and the workplace but I believe it applies to horses as we may best understand horses by understanding ourselves.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> I will definitely continue to watch the series and am interested in seeing how she plans on 'mixing' positive and negative reinforcement, as that has to be done carefully.


I've watched the entire series and some twice.

My take is that she does not introduce pressure as an aversive, but rather as a cue after the behavior has been at least 80% learned.

For example, after the horse is solid on following the target with even perhaps a cue of walk on, she simply adds the cue of a forward pressure on the lead rope when wearing a halter and adds it in as a secondary cue. No more aversive than the simple words of walk on.

On one of her videos she gave an example of walking on the left side of a horse with her arm draped over the back and putting pressure on the right side while guiding the horse left with the target. Simply adding a non-aversive leg pressure on the right side as a cue to turn left. No fear, no alert, no dimming of the seeking system.

I would be extremely surprised to see her using any aversives at all with Mystic although she may well use some with other horses depending.

With aversives, she's been there done that. All of her training methods until about three years ago or so were straight out of Natural Horsemanship's pressure release methodology. She still doesn't diss it, but definitely avoids it.

When you train a Zebra using +"R!" , I think you gotta pretty well know what you're doing.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> Oh shoot! Yes, big fat typo or brain whatever in my first opening sentence of the last post. Definitely meant +R. Oh well......


That’s what I thought you meant, happens to all of us!😂


trailscout said:


> For example, after the horse is solid on following the target with even perhaps a cue of walk on, she simply adds the cue of a forward pressure on the lead rope when wearing a halter and adds it in as a secondary cue. No more aversive than the simple words of walk on.


A non aversive cue using “pressure” would be a tactile cue, where the pressure doesn’t increase or isn’t held until the animal complies. So it’s not negative reinforcement although the cue would look the same as a negative reinforcement cue. I guess to word it better, if she was mixing positive and negative reinforcement, if the horse doesn’t move with the original tactile cue does she hold that cue or increase pressure until the result is reached and then click and reward? Hopefully I’ll have time to watch a couple more videos tomorrow and see what she does. I absolutely agree with you that she knows what she’s doing, and her training is amazing. Just curious to see how she mixes. There are plenty of other trainers who warn against mixing for various reasons (poison cue, emotional pressure, etc.), so I’m definitely looking forward to seeing how she does it.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I'm really puzzled by your expectation of Maddy mixing +R and -R. I don't expect her to do that and can't recall her indicating that she would or does. And after watching all of her videos in the Mystic Experiment that are available to the general public, I don't recall her ever using -R.

She does for certain have to use pressure in desensitizing fearfulness. Any time a fear boundary is approached, there is stress and fear. But she reads the emotions so as to not approach a high enough boundary to cause the horse to leave the training session. Plus after using the start button techniqjue which she praises, the horse is able to clearly tell her if the fear level is within what the horse can manage.

She is also very careful in her dialogue with video viewers to not criticize -R training in any way so as to not appear to be saying -R is bad and +R is good therefore I'M GOOD.

After all, only two years prior to the video, she was a full time -R practitioner at a level that won 1st places in Mustang Makeover competitions. I would think that most or all of her trainer friends are -R trainers.

I think she wants to be certain not to appear as a smoker that quits and then starts preaching to every smoker that is met.

I can see where some of that discussion could lead to thinking she will continue to use -R which she may, but if she does I doubt it will be with the same behavior.

In the first video there was a pop up of a video shown for only a few seconds where she was standing beside the head of her haltered horse, not Mystic, with the lead rope ran around a pipe on the fence. She was seen treating the horse. Not enough was shown to see what she was actually doing, but I guessed pressure was applied to the rope with the horse giving himself a release rather than her giving it with a food reward following.

The pressure on the rope was obviously an aversive or the horse would not have made it go away. This is the only thing I've seen even close to mixing but what I believe she was doing was conditioning an aversive to become an apettitive.

Jesus Rosales-Ruiz defines a cue as a discriminantive stimulus established by +R and only +R. He defines a discriminative stimulus established by -R as a Command, plain and simple.

He also mentions that a Command is viewed by the horse as a precursor to an aversive if the correct behavior does not follow the command.

So in my mind, an "Ask" is nothing less than a gentle command, but a command never-the-less.

He goes on to talk about poisoned cues and the associated problems in the link below.

Before I go, I wanted to mention I only first used a target with Keno a day or so after my first post. Then I absolutely lost my clicker. But it turned into a good thing. Yesterday I bought another at Tractor Supply that fits on the index finger where it is ready to be squeezed by the thumb at any nano instant, and not lost. It's really great and I would not have it had I not lost the other which I really did not like.

Here's the article on poisoned cues. Poisoned Cues – Empowered Equines


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

Thank you, I seem to recall her someone in the first video that she thought positive and negative reinforcement could be mixed, and that led to me expecting her to possibly mix it with Mystic. I have read the article on poisoned cues, but thank you for posting it! I have not watched all the videos yet and am looking forward to finishing the series. I think I know what clicker you’re talking about, I used to have one like that. I now just use a mouth click, but I found that one really nice.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I want to express that I really really appreciate you entering into discussion in this thread! I am very excited about +R which I've been mulling over for way to long without action and being able to talk about it really helps.

I had heard the term poisoned cues but wasn't really clear on what it meant. Your mention of it led me to the side I posted which is quite a site! When your post came in I had just finished reading an article on trauma in horses on the same site.

I tried the tongue click but was not very consistent with the sound. Maybe later someday.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Here's a video from 2015 when she was still training with negative reinforcement. An untouched wild mustang with only 30 days training. I'm impressed!!


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

I’ve really enjoyed talking with you on this thread too, you’ve obviously studied this subject thoroughly and a lot of people don’t. I started looking into +R back in the spring, so I’m still trying to find out as much as I can! When I started clicker training I just used a clicker too because my mouth click wasn‘t very consistent or well timed. I think the clicker is probably better, but once I started using targeting or doing faster paced things, I started using a mouth click. 

I watched Mustang Maddy’s bridleless and bareback performance last night with her mare Amira and it completely blew me away...it was very moving.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I've watched the Amira vid a couple times and just did again.

I'll have to say that in the mustang makeover finals, I've seen much more advanced and technical rides. I'll also say that I wasn't crazy about the theme getup, but I suspect she bent to the advice of others.

All that out of the way, that video was one of many things that got me hooked on Maddy. Not only was Amira a three strike mustang, but I'm pretty sure she was trained from the get-go with 100% +R. All of the mustangs in the finals competition are trained with -R which is much much faster but with all it's problems.

Thanks for the flowers but no, I have not studied this topic thoroughly at all. I've been simply circling and looking at it from afar. But the inclination to go in this direction has been dwelling within for quite some time.

Now I have no excuse to keep circling. What can be done with +R has been laid bare before me. So now what I do will depend on whether I really want to do this, not on whether it is possible.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

I thought Amira was trained with -R before she made the switch to +R? Maybe I’m wrong, I’ll have to go back and check. But yeah, all in all I loved that video. I definitely hesitated about making the jump into doing +R for a while. It's opened a lot of doors for me and I kinda feel like the wool has been pulled from eyes when it comes to the way in which we work with horses. My whole philosophy on horses has been (and still is) changing, from how I view the use of pressure, dominance theory, and interact with my horse. Once you take the ropes off its hard to unsee what your horse tells you. Right now I'm on the edge with considering whether or not I should completely retrain my horse under saddle.
If you're looking for more information, JETequitheory and The Willing Equine websites both have resource pages with links to websites, articles, podcasts, and books. Also, Mosie Trewhitt is a really neat trainer as well, the way she interacts with her horses is very inspiring.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I have seen the Willing Equine site. Need to go back now and re-check it out.

Being a three strike mustang, Amira for certain had -R training prior to Maddy, but I'm pretty sure she only got +R from Maddy.

Speaking of other sites, I just finished listening to a podcast by Shawna Karracsh on teaching a horse to respond to tactile cues using positive reinforcement. It's kind of long, but Shawna is the one that brought it to the horse world. I'm sure Maddy has studied her. She even uses the jackpot term for ending a session that Shawna has used for 26 years. I have Shawna's first book and have read it a couple times. Just got it out to read again.

But I really really enjoy the videos of Maddy's.

Here's a link to that long podcast: Equine Clicker 101 Lesson #42: Teaching a Horse to Move Off Pressure with Positive Reinforcement


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Wow, okay, so I just read your guys conversation, and you definitely know what you're talking about!
I don't have time right now, but I am definitely going to find the time to watch those videos! 
It all sounds very interesting, and I am very interested in the subject. You both made some great points, and I can't wait to watch the videos!


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

Ok, so I’m a bit addicted to listening to podcasts...I’ve actually listened to that one, it was good.
I was looking on her website and I think I remember her saying something in her first mystic video as well that she didn’t train Amira for the mustang makeover using positive reinforcement or at least not pure positive reinforcement. I think she used -r with her and started using +r with the zebra and the other mustang...I think his name was Willie? But yeah, I’m enjoying Maddy’s videos so far.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

AbbySmith said:


> Wow, okay, so I just read your guys conversation, and you definitely know what you're talking about!
> I don't have time right now, but I am definitely going to find the time to watch those videos!
> It all sounds very interesting, and I am very interested in the subject. You both made some great points, and I can't wait to watch the videos!


If you watch them, tell us what you think! If you are interested in learning more, I would strongly suggest visiting some of the websites I mentioned above...they have some really good information about the science behind horse training and operant conditioning.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

Sorry about the string of posts, but just wanted to share this link to Mosie Trewhitt’s website, liberty horsemanship. I don’t know if everything there is up to date, I know she’s a lot more active on Instagram if you want to check that out. But she has a really great podcast and if you dig through her Facebook page and YouTube channel there are some pretty neat videos. She finished the podcast, but it’s still great to listen to.




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Liberty Horsemanship


Horsemanship founded in communication and trust between horse and human. Learn the basics of positive reinforcement training and play with your horse at liberty in a way that inspires her spirit and natural curiosity, deepening you connection to the horse you love.




www.libertyhorsemanship.com


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

For the record, this is what I came up with:

MustangMaddy: "I reached the peak of my career using “Natural Horsemanship,” (pressure and release) until I came across a previously untrainable mustang and a feisty zebra who stopped me in my tracks. "

MustangMaddy: "Amira also led me to experiment with nontraditional forms of horse training, including positive reinforcement. "

Target treat training is supposed to be sooooo easy! Stick out the target and when they touch it treat. Right? Right.......at first.

I've just barely started for a few days with Keno. Today I was standing several steps from him with arm and target stick stuck out as far as I could reach. He would walk up, touch the target, and then keep walking toward me so he could get the treat that the click said was coming.

He wasn't mugging me. And I really didn't want him to stand still for me to walk back to him. My ultimate goal is for him to follow me on command and making him stay would seem to interfere with that. So actually at this point I'm not sure how to proceed. He's smart an one little error by me could cause problems.

The very very first day I tried the target I was so excited when he took a step forward that I treated and decided to end the session on that note. I went happily tripping back up the hill.

That afternoon he seemed to have his feet planted and would NOT move an inch to touch the target. It then dawned on me. I had punished him with -P when I took his treats (favorite toy) and abruptly left. I think he decided he had got in trouble for walking forward for the treat and was afraid if he took a step I would leave with no more treats forthcoming.

He's ok now but it did take a little extra effort. All this after Maddy had stressed in several different ways to no do -P when ending a session.

untamed.........we crossed.

I think we were both right about Amira. Maddy tried -R but decided that wasn't going to work and then turned to +R. BTW, the podcast is not Maddy but Shawna Karrasch.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> Sorry about the string of posts


String away...............!


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> If you watch them, tell us what you think! If you are interested in learning more, I would strongly suggest visiting some of the websites I mentioned above...they have some really good information about the science behind horse training and operant conditioning.


I definitely will! I will haven't had time to look at them, but hopefully in Monday!
I will also take a look at those other websites you mentioned!


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

In thinking about mixing positive and negative reinforcement, I have these thoughts.

Note: Opposing thoughts welcome as that often presents a learning opportunity!

Karen Pryor on Poisoned Cues: The Poisoned Cue: Positive and Negative Discriminative Stimuli | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

I'm wishing that term Command was universally used with negative reinforcement training with cue being reserved for only positive reinforcement training. It already is to some extent in dog training. I think it really points to what is going on and in this post at least I will use those two words as defined in the previous sentence.

Regurgitating what I've read in multiple places:

The seeking system is activated during pleasurable activities while the fear system is activated during perceived threats.

For some reason, the two systems are incompatible. They cannot both be functioning at the same time.

A command, no matter how lightly it is now given, was taught using negative reinforcement where an undesirable condition (pressure) continues in intensity and duration until a desired behavior occurs. This is perceived by the horse as a threat no matter how lightly applied and puts the horse on some level of alert which activates the fear system which in turn shuts down the seeking system were it activated at the time.

A cue becomes a precursor to a reward coming at first usually in the form of food which later can become the activity or response in and of itself.

Pressure that is either the precursor to a command or is the command in and of itself is given before there is any association with the command and the correct behavior. The pressure is simply increased until the correct behavior occurs.

A cue is not given until the behavior is at least 80% established and associated with a reward. A cue will then come to automatically activate the pleasurable seeking system.

With these thoughts in mind, it becomes very clear to me what Karen Pryor in the linked article is saying and why.

If positive and negative reinforcement are to be mixed in any way, it seems to me that they must be used on distinctly different behaviors.

For example, perhaps a sidepass could be taught using +R while leading in a halter could be taught using -R without confusion and frustration by the horse resulting.

But my question would be, if the trainer had the skill and experience to teach a sidepass with +R, why would -R even be considered? Why would a training method that puts the horse in a fear mode even be considered?


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Ok. Here's an opposing view from someone I view as the master.

Shawna says mixing +R and -R is not a problem as long as the horse is "truly truly" under threshold.

Scroll down for discussion and a second video by Shawna.





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Can I Mix Negative and Positive Reinforcement? - Connection Training


This is a great question and one we get asked a lot. Many people coming to reward-based training have horses who already understand many different behaviors and they always want to know if they have to start training everything again from scratch. As always, the answer comes to down to emotions...




connectiontraining.com


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

Trailscout, is Keno your horse? What breed is he? I enjoyed reading your progress with target training him. I always do an end cue with my training sessions where I give her several handfuls of hay pellets and take of my fanny pack, and if I have to go grab something in the middle of a training session, I also give her a handful or two of pellets before leaving. One thing I really struggled with (and still have to carefully manage) is my mare’s stress around food. I think my horse Shani definitely has a potential to be very food aggressive and having firm a firm end cue, using a really low value reinforcer, and adjusting the amount of food a give depending on her attitude and energy level that day. One thing that really helped her with this was also not putting ”head down” completely on stimulus control.


trailscout said:


> I think we were both right about Amira. Maddy tried -R but decided that wasn't going to work and then turned to +R. BTW, the podcast is not Maddy but Shawna Karrasch.


Ah, ok. I know the podcast is by Shawna, I enjoy her podcast a lot.


trailscout said:


> The seeking system is activated during pleasurable activities while the fear system is activated during perceived threats.
> 
> For some reason, the two systems are incompatible. They cannot both be functioning at the same time


This is very interesting, I didn’t know that, although it does make sense. I agree with you about the difference between a “command and “cue”, with negative reinforcement their is no choice presented to the horse only a command. With positive reinforcement the horse can decline to perform the behavior asked. This is one of the things that really attracted me to positive reinforcement and clicker training. One thing I dislike is when clicker trainers continually “ask” until the horse performs the behavior, or pull out a stronger reinforcer (molasses horse treat) to put a sort of mental pressure on the horse to comply instead of respecting the horses choice and analyzing the situation. Even with positive reinforcement the line of ethical training can be crossed and I try and always remember to give my horse as much freedom of choice as possible. I agree that if you do use + and - R it depends on the horse and the absolutely cannot be used with the same behavior. I would say that the majority of people who clicker train do it for groundwork or tricks and ride with -R. I do think that this can still cause problems with some horses, if a horse knows that in the cross ties and in his pasture he gets treats for doing behaviors but when he is saddled and goes into the ring he no longer has a choice and is trained using pressure and release, the horse might learn to avoid this, such as refusing to enter the ring, pinning his ears when he sees the saddle. Again, I think with some horses this can work, but not all. With Shani, I’m considering retraining her under saddle with + R.


trailscout said:


> But my question would be, if the trainer had the skill and experience to teach a sidepass with +R, why would -R even be considered? Why would a training method that puts the horse in a fear mode even be considered?


I think there are several answers to this. First, a lot of trainers don’t know about +R training or dismiss it as something for teaching your horse tricks or teaching your horse to mug you. The majority of trainers also believe in dominance theory, so giving your horse choices and not using pressure to “become the alpha” seems contradictory to them, and that they would be letting the horse walk all over them. +R also takes a bit more research and careful application the pressure and release which most trainers are skilled in using. Making the switch would require a lot more effort, and most trainers see nothing wrong with - R. +R also takes more time to teach, and assuming they don’t use any pressure with it and doesn’t deliver the promise that the horse will always perform the behavior. With -R, if the horse doesn’t comply, pressure is increased until the horse responds. Also, alot of people don’t like the idea of having to carry around treats and reward the horse for the behavior.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> Ok. Here's an opposing view from someone I view as the master.
> 
> Shawna says mixing +R and -R is not a problem as long as the horse is "truly truly" under threshold.
> 
> ...


So, I get what she’s saying and do think with some horses it’s not a problem. However, Shawna often works with horses who come from -R backgrounds and whose owners don’t necessarily want their horses retrained with +R. This is definitely a hot topic in the clicker training world, and you will find skilled trainers on both sides of the argument. I think it comes down to how you want to train your horse and your philosophy as well as your individual horse. As for her talking about a horse being under threshold I agree but I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. The horses she worked have often been started from the ground up (like most horses) through pressure and release. So initially they might have been over threshold but over time either realized it wasn’t so bad or, just realized that they had to put up with it and there was nothing they could do about it. However, I think Shawna knows what she’s doing and is doing great work for the horse community. One thing I have noticed about Connection Training is that in their videos they often mix, and not in a way I like. Such as in a hip targeting video one of the ways they showed you how to do it was to have one person hold the hip target on one side and on the other side someone used pressure to push the horse’s hind into the target. Click, treat. It was done gently and the horse seemed happy and content, but it wasn’t true +R. The horse moved its hindquarters over initally because it was escaping an aversive. Again, I think Connection training is doing good work for the horse community but I find that they mix in ways that I wouldn’t prefer to use.
Btw, I just noticed there were some typos in my last post, I wrote it in a rush and didn’t reread it before posting, so sorry about that!


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

:0) you are forgiven for your tipo :0)

I've been thinking about Shawna's videos I watched, the two I posted plus one other. 

Shawna stressed that pressure is not a bad thing in itself. She stressed that going over threshold is the bad thing to be avoided. I would like to ask her, and I may, if going over threshold is defined as turning the fear system on and the seeking system off. I'm thinking the answer is yes.

Now I goof around with Keno quite a lot as two intermediate school boys that are buddies might do. I'll walk by and just bump into him with my shoulder while continuing on my way. Or pull his tail just to make him have to regain his balance. He'll be grazing and not even look up as he shifts his weight to maintain balance.

So all that is pressure but clearly not shutting down the seeking system. I'm just betting that is what Shawna was meaning when she said if they are "truly truly" under threshold. Meaning that mix and match is ok as long as the seeking system stays turned on.

Middle school boy hits friend on shoulder, friend moves out of way, but they are both still smiling and having fun.

So, I really dunno. Just got here mostly. But from what I have seen, Shawna is the most skilled and knowledgeable of all. Ten years at SeaWorld and now 26 years with horses. She mentioned her first horse which was trained 100% +R is soon turning 28. But Maddy to me edges her out a little in the orchestration inspiration department.

With just those two, not sure there' much need to look much farther, but of course I will.

I did search a name Maddy mentioned. Turns out that two of Skinner's grad students in the 1960 decided to take what they had learned and go for a career in training sea mammals in Florida. He tried to persuade them to complete the doctoral they were working on but nope. And the rest is history. Sea World, Shawna, and then horses. I thought that was all interesting.

Oh, almost forgot. Did I mention my very first clicker work with Keno? Just food and a clicker.

Because of me, he has always been very food positive gimmee gimmee. Good horse, I taught him that.

So with the clicker, I would just stand with a treat in my hand and not move until he moved his head ever so slightly away or even turned his eyes away. I would click and treat each time.

In short order, I could say "treat!" and he would snap his head straight forward, with his eyes continued glued on the treat. I guess to make sure I didn't eat it.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

Just gotta say I love the name Keno... 
I would think that you playing around with your horse would be similar to the pressure you use when brushing your horse. It’s not increasing until the horse does something and the horse enjoys it. I think that if you mix + and - R with the same behavior (such as the example I gave above) it’s not really + R. It’s the horse learning through pressure and release and being given a cookie at the end. I love Shawna Karrasch, but just because she has a great background doesn’t mean she’s the end all. Other trainers have done some pretty amazing things such as Alexandra Kurland, Mary Hunter, and Alizé Veillard-Muckensturm. Other newer trainers are also doing some pretty amazing things, such as Kara Musgrave and Kathy Sierra. I don’t think any of them are wrong and there are many different approaches with +R and endless possibilities.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I'll search those names and investigate. Thanks. I remember having seen Kurland. And it's true, just like horses, different people prefer different approaches. I "didn't like podcast but you do. Now I'm actually liking them some as I can do other things without missing anything. Would have been great back in the days of commuting.

Keno says thanks for the flowers. That's the name he came with. keno is "just" a grade horse, some say mostly Morgan, but to me and for me he is the very best horse in the whole wide world.

And yours?

In talking about +R and -R, I think it's important, for me at least, to keep in mind that -R is taking something away after the behavior that will increase the likelihood of the behavior occurring again. If the - is so slight that it will not increase the recurrence of the behavior, removing that - would not, to me at least, fit the strict definition of negative reinforcement.

Might be the same with the strength of the +. If some grass the horse was already eating was cut and offered to the horse as a reward, it probably would have much if any effect of the horse repeating the behavior. 



untamed equestrian said:


> It’s the horse learning through pressure and release and being given a cookie at the end.


Right, and that's supposed to be a confusing no no. If not confused with the behavior and aversive pressure, it'd just be an unrelated random treat. And I don't think random treats are necessarily a bad thing. Neither does Keno. Just ask him! 

So I've been thinking about Shawna saying it's ok to mix -/+R providing the horse is truly truly below threshold.

But if the horse is below threshold and in the happy seeking place, is -R even possible with the strict definition of it. If it's light enough not to turn on the fear area and turn off the seeking area, it seems the horse would consider it a tactile cue. Plus if the pressure was not increasing until the horse responded, it just would not fit as a -R.

So I'm just cogitating all this stuff. Don't take anything I say or think today as something I will necessarily say or think tomorrow.

I took Keno 500 feet this morning in 10 to 30 foot increments. He was in such a hurry I began to worry that he was mugging. But when I stepped to the side with the target in front of me, he quickly touched it and turned eagerly toward me. It was fine and fun.

This afternoon we made around an 800 foot loop where I actually led him quite a bit with the target before stopping for him to touch.

This is of course without halter or rope. I'm fairly hopeful that he will soon be leading at liberty. So far we went 17 steps today leading between +R.

Something else I was thinking about today. Many people that oppose +R for some reason or other often say, "I just don't want my horse to be working for treats." That's not what it's about of course, but what if it was?

Would they rather have a horse to work to get rid if something that is irritating, uncomfortable, or at worst hurts? The strict application of -R would seem to be just that. Providing of course that the minus turns off the seeking system.

I'd be interested in hearing some of the stuff you've been doing with targets and +R.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I was searching the web for general information and discussion on capturing this morning which led to stumbling upon Mary Hunter which led to equiosity and their podcast and course. Then I noticed that Mary Hunter was associated with Dr. Jesús Rosales Ruiz whom I've already posted an article by a ways back in my posts. I have him saved already on my desktop for future reference.

So there you go! I still have a few more recommendation to check out.

Anyhow, back to capturing. In the past I read something about the fact that in capturing, anything in the environment that happened to cause an animal to perform the behavior to be captured was fair game. Firetruck sirene, chicken flying out of the rafters, etc.

I was thinking about this in connection with the story you related about Shawna having a person on the other side shove a horse so the target on the other side was bumped, then clicked and rewarded as being mixing -R in a way you did not like.

So I'm mulling over if the pushing on the horse could be viewed as a case of pushing the envelope of extraneous factors causing the horse to present a desired behavior. I need to watch the video if it's still around....I'll check.



untamed equestrian said:


> It was done gently and the horse seemed happy and content, but it wasn’t true +R.


But I wonder. It sounds as if the horse did not leave the seeking mode. I'm wondering if the horse was simply shoved or if pressure was applied as an aversive below threshold. Aversives below threshold are acceptable and used in desensitization all the time in +R. 

If the horse made no more connection between the shove and the target than a firetruck going by and the target, I'm not fully convinced it was a bad way to capture a behavior that included touching the target.

I'm still pondering how this behavior could happen to occur and be captured by a single person. Innovation is for certain a requirement for +R training. Not much innovation required for -R. Just make'm do it!


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> I'll search those names and investigate. Thanks. I remember having seen Kurland. And it's true, just like horses, different people prefer different approaches. I "didn't like podcast but you do. Now I'm actually liking them some as I can do other things without missing anything. Would have been great back in the days of commuting.
> 
> Keno says thanks for the flowers. That's the name he came with. keno is "just" a grade horse, some say mostly Morgan, but to me and for me he is the very best horse in the whole wide world.
> 
> And yours?


I didn't like podcasts that much at first either. I had a hard time sitting still and focusing for that long, but at the same time I wanted to listen to them as they had good information. The game changer for me was listening to them while I was driving, it made the usual drive to work or the barn less dull, and it was easier for me to focus on them as well. The podcast equiosity is pretty good, overall the episodes are pretty great. Some of them definitely could be boiled down from a 30+ minute episode to 10 minutes, and I find they can be hit or miss, but overall they are great. The ones I've liked the most and learned the most from are the ones with Mary Hunter in it.

Grade horses are so under appreciated...I've seen some very nice mixes that have been brushed off just because they didn't have papers. My mare Shani is an Arabian ( no papers), she doesn't have the halter head look and the woman I got her from got her from a rescue. They told her that she was an Arabian from a bad breeding farm, but she looks like she could be a mix. Lol, who knows. Doesn't make a difference to me, I absolutely adore her.


trailscout said:


> I was thinking about this in connection with the story you related about Shawna having a person on the other side shove a horse so the target on the other side was bumped, then clicked and rewarded as being mixing -R in a way you did not like.


My bad, but I must have forgotten to clarify that it was a video by connection training and Shawna was not in it. It was a tutorial by Hannah Weston I believe. 


trailscout said:


> Anyhow, back to capturing. In the past I read something about the fact that in capturing, anything in the environment that happened to cause an animal to perform the behavior to be captured was fair game. Firetruck sirene, chicken flying out of the rafters, etc.
> 
> I was thinking about this in connection with the story you related about Shawna having a person on the other side shove a horse so the target on the other side was bumped, then clicked and rewarded as being mixing -R in a way you did not like.
> 
> So I'm mulling over if the pushing on the horse could be viewed as a case of pushing the envelope of extraneous factors causing the horse to present a desired behavior. I need to watch the video if it's still around....I'll check.


So, to me I personally wouldn't want to take advantage of a moment where the horse was scared to capture a behavior. When my horse spooks, I try and calm her down and mark that instead. Although I don't think an accidental situation taken an advantage of to capture a behavior is bad, I do think purposefully putting a horse in a situation where they are spooked or scared to capture a behavior is. Just going down a rabbit hole with this line of thought, but I do think effectiveness is not enough and that ethicality must always be kept in mind. Like clicker trainers who train in an arena with no other food source available and a highly appetite reinforcer right before a meal so that the horse is hungry and feels more pressure to work. 


trailscout said:


> But I wonder. It sounds as if the horse did not leave the seeking mode. I'm wondering if the horse was simply shoved or if pressure was applied as an aversive below threshold. Aversives below threshold are acceptable and used in desensitization all the time in +R.
> 
> If the horse made no more connection between the shove and the target than a firetruck going by and the target, I'm not fully convinced it was a bad way to capture a behavior that included touching the target.
> 
> I'm still pondering how this behavior could happen to occur and be captured by a single person. Innovation is for certain a requirement for +R training. Not much innovation required for -R. Just make'm do it!


Good question. The horse definitely seemed ok with it and it was done gently. I also think that even if you are a purist +R trainer its still good to teach your horse how to handle pressure. But that doesn't mean you necessarily need to train with it. For instance, you are lunging your horse and you swing the rope at their butt and send them off into a trot. You then click and reward. I wouldn't consider that +R training since the horse trotted not because it was seeking to be rewarded but because it was avoiding an aversive. Again, I think it definitely comes down to the individual horse. For my horse personally, I find she's very adamant against me mixing like that. I've taught my mare to target her hindquarters and knees using shaping. For the hindquarters it definitely took a lot of patience, and very small steps. After that she caught on to targeting her knees within a minute. I use a lot of shaping and mimicking to teach Shani things. She did not initially mimc anything I did, but over time I have been able to teach her this. First it was lowering her head when I lowered mine and backing up and walking with me, and its evolved from there.

Yeah you sometimes have to get pretty creative with +R. I'm pretty sure the other people at my barn think I'm crazy, lol.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Ok. I'll have to back up on the firetruck and chicken/rafters. I didn't think about it at the time I was typing, but I fully agree with you that if a horse is frightened enough to go into f/f/f mode, which doesn't take much sometimes, and accidentally bumped into the target, I absolutely would not to click and treat. In the first place, the horse would not know if it was being rewarded for being frightened of the firetruck or touching the target.

Secondly, the focus should not be on the target by the handler in that situation but rather calming the horse. So thanks.

And I can see where the same argument could be made for even a gentle shove.

But going back to the strict definition of +R being an apetitive applied at the end of a behavior that increases the re-occurrence of the behavior, it would seem to fit.

But I agree, it just doesn't seem to "feel" pure +R.

I had stumbled on stale cheerios previously when searching topics but today I remembered Mary Hunter being one you mentioned. I'm subscribed to both now.

The one podcast I've listened to was about Mary's trials and tribulations and final success in gardening as applied, of course, to horse training. Alexandra had some info of interest that I could have put to good use in the few years I taught in HS. Telling a kid how smart he is not a good thing. I and my sister are perfect examples of the story in extreme.

I was always told how smart I was, smarter than my sister even, and how hard she had to work for her grades. Why try and prove them wrong?! I did not even graduate from HS and she was valedictorian. It was Carol West's research in Stanford that was being discussed in that segment of the podcast.

I'm starting to ramble............

Oh yeah, how did you first get your horse to touch the target with her hips? Or was it just to convoluted to try to put into words in a post?


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

So I just watched the first video of the Mystic Experiment, and I really enjoyed it!
Maddy has a lot of interesting points, and she makes a lot of sense. 
I really enjoyed her 'tea time' and that she took the time to discuss what she had talked about, and how to apply it to ourselves. I think that a lot of what she said during that time, can be applied to our everyday lives, not just when training horses. 
A lot of the examples of things she struggled with are things I also struggle with, and she really helped me notice that I even believed those things, and what I can do to overcome that. And _why_ I should overcome those 'beliefs'. 

I can't wait to watch her next video, she is super awesome, and I have learned a lot so far! I am super excited to she what she does with Mystic. Just from what little she showed of her work with Zeus, and ugh, whoever the other horse was. (The one with chronic bucking issues, and pushed through everything. I forget his name.) I can already tell, that she is an amazing trainer, and really cares about the horses, not just breaking them, but 'connecting' with them as well.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Glad you enjoyed it! She is quite a teacher. . She has put a ton of work into her presentations.

But being a professional, she enjoys what she is doing but also needs to make a living. So it is doubtful you will see the final product of Mystic without joining the academy which is sold out at the moment.

So the video series is sort of like a trailer for a movie to see if you would like the full version. But still, there is a ton of learning in just the video series.

I really like the way on each video she reminds the viewer of what she believes are the three most important elements for +R training, Compassion, Innovation, and Self Awareness --------------You can't connect with your horse until you can connect with yourself.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> Oh yeah, how did you first get your horse to touch the target with her hips? Or was it just to convoluted to try to put into words in a post?


Annnnd of course I ramble on about teaching my horse to hip target without explaining how...I need to get my brain together. So, to teach Shani to hip target I started by holding the target as close as possible to her hip without it actually touching her...like a hair away. Eventually she bumped the target while she was standing there through shifting her weight or fidgeting a bit. Over time I just held it further and further away so that she had to make a bigger effort and actually had to move her hips around to touch it. You just have to be patient in the beginning since it can take them a while to really get it. I taught her to target her legs the same way, by then she had learned to target her hips and had more experience with clicker training so she picked up on it quickly.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> I really like the way on each video she reminds the viewer of what she believes are the three most important elements for +R training, Compassion, Innovation, and Self Awareness --------------You can't connect with your horse until you can connect with yourself.


This is so true and I’m really glad she talks about it. It can sound kinda strange at first but your energy and emotions are often reflected in your horse as well as your body language.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> This is so true and I’m really glad she talks about it. It can sound kinda strange at first but your energy and emotions are often reflected in your horse as well as your body language.


I agree. I watched the second video, and it was captivating. The way she interacts with Mystic, and the way she explains what she is doing, and _why_ she is doing it. It is super inspiring.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> So, to teach Shani to hip target I started by holding the target as close as possible to her hip without it actually touching her...like a hair away. Eventually she bumped the target while she was standing there through shifting her weight or fidgeting a bit. Over time I just held it further and further away so that she had to make a bigger effort and actually had to move her hips around to touch it.


Perfect! I've read that target training can requires being patient but can speed up as more learning occurs. And that way really is "pure". There is nothing else going on in the environment or with her which would interfere with her noticing-'hey I just bumped something". The target would be in her blind spot but you and your arm and the target stick would be visible so she knew what it was she bumped before the click/reward. I shall copy when the time comes!



AbbySmith said:


> I agree. I watched the second video, and it was captivating. The way she interacts with Mystic, and the way she explains what she is doing, and _why_ she is doing it. It is super inspiring.


Yes! I fully agree! But as untamed equestrian suggested, which I have found to be true, Maddy with an inclusion of other top +R trainers fills in and presents things from different angles that can provide even more clarity and detail.

Many things in my world are turning upside down after sticking my head into this rabbit hole.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

trailscout said:


> Yes! I fully agree! But as untamed equestrian suggested, which I have found to be true, Maddy with an inclusion of other top +R trainers fills in and presents things from different angles that can provide even more clarity and detail.
> 
> Many things in my world are turning upside down after sticking my head into this rabbit hole.


Yeah, I found that to be true as well. It was really nice to get a proffesional view, from a different angle. 

I agree! I think that's why Maddy initially asked us the first 'Question of The Day' I know for me anyways, it really helped me realize what 'beliefs' I was holding onto, why I was holding on to them, and how to let go of them.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> Many things in my world are turning upside down after sticking my head into this rabbit hole.


Same thing happened to me. I felt like everything I had learned about horses and training pretty much crumbled around me. I’m not anywhere near the same person I was with horses last year, my philosophy has completely changed.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I'm so thankful I have at least a couple people to blab to about this stuff. There's none of my friends or acquaintances that would have a clue what this is all about. Only horse people that have opened their eyes to +R.

And it's really helpful to have my thoughts critiqued. That is really helpful.

I just finished reading Maddy's PDF download from the Five Golden Rules outlining shaping the second time. I taught HS math for 7 years and as I read through the article this time I was struck by how similar it was to what she was saying about shaping the horse. Even in math, you just can't go too far in one day or it can lead to a setback. And you just can't jump in on the second day where you left off the day before. And other stuff. In some ways it was mostly only the language that was different.

I spent a bit of time today thinking about pressure in terms of threshold rings or zones. In the little graph Maddy had on one video there was a green area at the bottom that was grazing or pure seeking. Another area at the top was red and was FFF area. In between was a yellow area, a caution sign I guess that was on alert but also a learning area.

So in a way, it seems that almost all learning and curiosity could involve some form of pressure. The senses are on high alert but not necessarily any real fear.

In the early stages of halter training, Maddy could only pick up the halter so high before Mystic appeared to about go over threshold. Then the halter was replaced on the ground.

So there was pressure applied in picking up the halter and pressure reduced when it was put back down.

Approach/retreat from what I've seen is similar.

So I think I'm realizing there is no way to train using +R without involving pressure providing it stays under threshold as all the experts stress.

I'm rambling I know but writing it helps me think and understand.

So now I'm wondering if when Shawna said it's ok to mix pressure/release with +R provided the horse does not go over threshold if what she was really meaning was pressure/reduced pressure. Putting the halter back on the ground or retreating is not a release but rather only a reduction of pressure.

If you got this far thanks!


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

I totally get what you are saying.

You need a little bit of pressure if you are going to go anywhere. If the horse doesn't feel pressured to do something, you won't get anywhere, cause he knows he safe right where he is, and if he doesn't want to do something. You won't pressure him, and he continue doing things his way.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

AbbySmith said:


> You won't pressure him, and he continue doing things his way.



I must not have worded something quite right.

The pressure I was intending to talk about was as used proper desensitization. Getting over a fear of something and eventually thinking of the feared thing as an apetitive.

Using pressure to get a horse to do something is how pressure is used in -R or pressure/release, a no no for +R.

In +R anything a horse does, he must choose to do it because he wants to. Creating situations and training where the horse wants to do a behavior we desire is up to the +R trainer.

The first time I placed a target a few inches in front of Keno's nose, his curiosity was aroused and he reached out to touch it with his nose to feel it to see what it was like. That's a natural response almost any horse would make.

I instantly clicked and treated. So far he has walked 20 steps at one time to walk to the target to touch with his nose to get a reward. He is beginning to follow me a little. The goal is to have him walk along with me with no rope and no halter just because it now feels good whether there is a treat reward or not. That is what they are talking about when the reward becoming intrinsic. When it is just fun to do it. It just feels good.

The person that first brought +R to the horse world in a developed form worked at Sea World for ten years. Pressure absolutely cannot be used to train Killer Whales and Sea Lions. The have to be persuaded to do it in other ways. If pressure was attempted, they might well kill ya!


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Aaaaah, gotcha. 
Yep, sorry, I was totally on the wrong track. lol. I totally agree, you need to make sure you aren't using pressure _against_ the horse, rather, you are rewarding the horse, by _releasing_ the horse from the pressure.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

AbbySmith said:


> you are rewarding the horse, by _releasing_ the horse from the pressure.


I'm afraid I've really confused the subject. Using the release of pressure as a reward is part of negative reinforcement and never ever used in positive reinforcement which is what Maddy and this thread is about.

I was sort of thinking out loud in my post before the last one while working some things out in my own head and apparently mislead or misstated somehow.

So here's the deal, ..........I think. Just woke up thinking about this.

In Positive Reinforcement:

1.Training to reduce fear: Increasing and decreasing pressure below the horse's fear threshold for reaction is used _only_ when desensitizing a horse to some fear. Teaching the horse not to be afraid of some object or procedure. 

The horse's apprehension is allowed to increase just a little with the fearful object by moving it closer, higher, or whatever causes the horse to become alarmed to a slight degree but never alarmed enough to go over the 'fear threshold' where the seeking system turns off and the fear system turns on.

The horse has a fear of his feet being handled and picked up as the feet are the main escape system in times of danger. So I think that could be included in the training not to be afraid by increasing and decreasing fear.

The mere presence of a human can be alarming to a wild and ungentled horse. In that case, I think approaching the horse but retreating prior to a reaction by the horse would be a simple desensitization process also.

2. Training to perform a behavior: The use of mental or physical pressure or force is never ever used in any way to get a horse to do something we want the horse to do. Since no pressure is applied, the release of pressure never happens as a reward or for any other reason. 

The horse must choose on it's on free will to do what we wish for the horse to do. The horse must always have the choice to not do whatever it is we wish the horse to do without fear of punishment or reprisal.

The horse does not _have_ to reach out and touch the target out of curiosity but chooses to do so. Each time the horse chooses to do that, there is a click and reward with the reward being food in the beginning.

After the horse starts understanding that the target and click is associated with a reward, other behaviors can be added but with the horse ultimately making the choice of those behaviors by it's own free will, or not.

Ultimately, the behavior itself becomes something the horse just enjoys doing with or without some reward. Just being able to perform the behavior becomes the reward in and of itself.

We are the same way. There are things that are fun to us but we don't always know why. But somewhere we have made positive associations with the things we think are fun.

So after all this thinking out loud, I'm dividing interactions with a horse into two categories:

1. Training to reduce fear, and 2. Training an activity. The first uses pressure increases and reductions below threshold, and the second uses no pressure at all but only the horses free will or choice.

I think I have all this straightened out in my own head at least. And I think I should perhaps refrain from "thinking out loud" in future posts


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> So I think I'm realizing there is no way to train using +R without involving pressure providing it stays under threshold as all the experts stress.


You are right that its impossible to eliminate all sources of pressure. In the horses natural environment there is pressure to get shelter and food, with clicker training there is pressure to get the food reward. Here's a great article by Adele Shaw where she talks about how not all pressure is -R and also how you can't eliminate all sources of pressure. She describes good pressure as the "pressure" to read that last chapter in a really exciting book as good pressure for example. Life Is Pressure

Although you can't eliminate all sources of pressure I still try and avoid as much as possible. I don't think you should mix in the same behavior since the behavior will be driven primarily by the horse reacting to -R, not +R. If you cluck and press against your horses chest to get him to step back, and then click and reward, the horse is reacting to the pressure and not stepping back because he is seeking a reward. Although with +R you may have to get a bit creative and it may take longer to achieve a behavior is doable.


trailscout said:


> I spent a bit of time today thinking about pressure in terms of threshold rings or zones. In the little graph Maddy had on one video there was a green area at the bottom that was grazing or pure seeking. Another area at the top was red and was FFF area. In between was a yellow area, a caution sign I guess that was on alert but also a learning area.


I haven't read her pdf, but I think you don't need to enter the yellow area to get a horses attention. Entering the yellow area makes the horse pay attention to an object sooner than if it was outside the green "seeking" area. You were describing how Maddy raised the halter until Mystic started to go on the edge of going over threshold and then put it down. I think this is fine but not the way I like to approach introducing new things. Although every horse is different, my Arabian mare can be very spooky and hot headed. The difference in her behavior with +R is night and day to what it was before. If I'm introducing something new or something that she disliked I simply take that item with me when I go to see her and let her approach it. Horses are naturally curious and will often approach new items of their own choosing without ever needing to put that item in the yellow threshold zone. Letting the horse approach a new item on their own terms builds their confidence and activates their seeking system. Hopefully that made some sense I think I'm rambling bit. However, I do think the way that Shawna Karrasch trains is great, just not the way I want to approach training with my particular horse. 


trailscout said:


> I think I have all this straightened out in my own head at least. And I think I should perhaps refrain from "thinking out loud" in future posts


Please don't stop, I really enjoy reading your posts!


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

AbbySmith said:


> Aaaaah, gotcha.
> Yep, sorry, I was totally on the wrong track. lol. I totally agree, you need to make sure you aren't using pressure _against_ the horse, rather, you are rewarding the horse, by _releasing_ the horse from the pressure.


Just want to say that I think its really great that you are open minded and even looking into this. Its a very different way of training and it can be confusing at first! Release of pressure is not a reward. Its just relief. For example, think about the stress of finals in school. Its a week of studying, cramming, and worrying about getting good results, and when your grades come back good at the end of the week, its a massive relief. This is similar to pressure and release. The relief of your anxiety about your tests isn't a reward. You don't think "I wish I could do finals all over again just to experience this sense of relief". The same goes for horses. They don't walk around hoping someone will come over and use escalating pressure on them until they find the right answer and experience the relief of being released from the pressure. The reason pressure and release works is because you are applying something to the horse that they find aversive in order to get a certain result. Pressure is always against the horse. With positive reinforcement (done right) the horse has the choice to say "no" if it feels uncomfortable and the ability to choose whether or not to participate in an activity or training session with you.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> Please don't stop, I really enjoy reading your posts!


Thanks. You're very easy to please! 

In defense of Maddy and the halter training, Mystic would actually target the halter laying on the ground but worried about it being picked up. Early on, Maddy had placed a simply cloth in the middle of the field and Mystic was unapproachable for a week. When Mystic was labeled untrainable it was not an exaggeration.

I listened to a an interesting podcast by Alexandra this morning. One thing I really really liked was a story about a person having difficulty with just a saddle pad. The horse was trained to put it on by walking under it ond putting it on. Reminded me of a video by Maddy where she indicated it was ok for Mystic to touch the saddle pad but did not want it to touch her. With the example from Alexandra the horse was not only giving permission and in control but was putting it on herself. I thought that was pretty cool.

I also watched a couple vids of Warwick Schiller. He is doing some really good stuff.......imo.



untamed equestrian said:


> You don't think "I wish I could do finals all over again just to experience this sense of relief".


That is soooo good! Plus the rest of the post. You're a good teacher.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> Thanks. You're very easy to please!


I'm pretty much the only person I know who is researching stuff like this so its so helpful to be able to talk with you about +R!
I haven't finished the series yet, and I'm not trying to attack her method at all. For Mystic that might have been the best approach. Just wanted to point out that entering the yellow threshold isn't always necessary.
Was that the one with Mary Hunter and the cilantro podcast? I listened to that one and loved how the horse was putting the saddle pad on herself! Ok, I'll have to go watch some of Warwick Schiller's videos.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> I'm pretty much the only person I know who is researching stuff like this so its so helpful to be able to talk with you about +R!


Same here. 



untamed equestrian said:


> Was that the one with Mary Hunter and the cilantro podcast?


That was #124 which I listened to. #123 Listening Well was the one where the horse put on her own saddle pad. It was way toward the end. They were talking about the case history of one of the students.......if I'm remembering correctly.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

There are only eight videos on the Mystic Experiment available to the public. Link is here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXvpVBc467NycOo8qbsjgUTOtgaYiMnXO

Hmm......actually there are some more on YouTube that are not listed on her website. My favorite is not listed in the link above. It involves talking about Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in horses. I think if this video is watched there will be a fair amount of agreement that Maddy goes places in the video that not too many horse trainer go.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> Just want to say that I think its really great that you are open minded and even looking into this. Its a very different way of training and it can be confusing at first! Release of pressure is not a reward. Its just relief. For example, think about the stress of finals in school. Its a week of studying, cramming, and worrying about getting good results, and when your grades come back good at the end of the week, its a massive relief. This is similar to pressure and release. The relief of your anxiety about your tests isn't a reward. You don't think "I wish I could do finals all over again just to experience this sense of relief". The same goes for horses. They don't walk around hoping someone will come over and use escalating pressure on them until they find the right answer and experience the relief of being released from the pressure. The reason pressure and release works is because you are applying something to the horse that they find aversive in order to get a certain result. Pressure is always against the horse. With positive reinforcement (done right) the horse has the choice to say "no" if it feels uncomfortable and the ability to choose whether or not to participate in an activity or training session with you.


This made so much sense! I just started researching this so I don't know a lot about it, so sorry if what I say doesn't make sense! lol. 


> That is soooo good! Plus the rest of the post. You're a good teacher


I totally agree!


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

AbbySmith said:


> This made so much sense! I just started researching this so I don't know a lot about it, so sorry if what I say doesn't make sense! lol.


No need to apologize! It’s really different from pretty much everything you’ve been taught, and just like you I was also told that release from pressure was a “reward”.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Reading this................

Quote: "Dopamine is released when your brain is expecting a reward. When you come to associate a certain activity with pleasure, mere anticipation may be enough to raise dopamine levels."

Source:Dopamine Effects on the Body, Plus Drug and Hormone Interactions


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Just finished the third Mystic video.
It was so good. She has given me a lot of ideas for things to do with my donkeys! 
I really liked her analogy of the pigeon, it made a lot of sense, and made me realize that I should be breaking the training lessons down further, and rewarding for littler things like a shift of weight, looking at the scary object, or even just standing there and not "holding their breath".
Maddy has really helped me realize what I should be doing in my training, what I have been doing wrong, why those things were wrong, and how to change them.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> I was also told that release from pressure was a “reward”.


This is so important to share. I have been told the same. I searched afterward for pressure release reward horse and found a couple of legitimate looking sites that clearly stated in their literature that a release from pressure was a reward. I'm afraid that misunderstanding may be a long time going away.

Not only does reward not fit that situation when one really thinks about it, but it does not have the biological attributes of reward. It does not generate dopamine. At best it is probably followed by a reduction of cortisol production.

Seems I remember reading in my textbook how Skinner would take an untrained pigeon in front of a class and have it hopping on one leg in counter clockwise circles in ten minutes.

I have a Nigerian Pygmy goat that will be next after Keno comes along a ways.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> This is so important to share. I have been told the same. I searched afterward for pressure release reward horse and found a couple of legitimate looking sites that clearly stated in their literature that a release from pressure was a reward. I'm afraid that misunderstanding may be a long time going away.
> 
> Not only does reward not fit that situation when one really thinks about it, but it does not have the biological attributes of reward. It does not generate dopamine. At best it is probably followed by a reduction of cortisol production.
> 
> ...


There are definitely a lot of misunderstandings in the horse world. I’m sure we have all heard things such as “you reward him by releasing pressure”, “you have to hit him to make him respect you”, “move his feet to let him know who’s in charge”, “the crop doesn’t hurt him” and so on. Like most horse people I was taught that release from pressure was a reward and that the horse has to respect you and you have to be the boss. (Dominance theory) It probably will be a while before these views of training go away, but thankfully more and more information is coming out on the science behind training. 
Reward is not a fitting definition of release from pressure and I can’t see how it would generate dopamine in the brain.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Warwick Schiller has been a traditional Natural Horsemanship trainer. Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. All that.

This video was made about 10 months ago. I think there is a transformation going on from Natural Horseman ship. Be interesting to see where he is in another year or two.

It's about 20 minutes. If anyone has time. I don't know how anyone working has the time for any of this.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

[QUOTE="trailscout]

It's about 20 minutes. If anyone has time. I don't know how anyone working has the time for any of this.





[/QUOTE]
Lol I'll have to take a look at it later. Everything you have posted has been really informative and helpful!


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Here's a neat vid. Only 3:30 long with 21 tricks! Not planning on teaching tricks to my horse, but it's fun to see what others do.

I mostly just want to know my horse is in a happy place because of my presence and to actually enjoy carrying me around. He may already but if he becomes familiar with the "stop button" and fully realizes his option to say no, then I will know his willingness is of his own accord.

This has always been important to me. I'm hoping I now have the tools to find out and to ensure that he does in fact freely choose to do things I ask and that my ask is truly perceived as request with the option to say no without a negative response from me and in no way a command.

If more people clearly understood that a release from pressure is in no way a reward, I believe the drift away from pressure/release would be increased by horse owners.

If there was a realization that pressure/release was actually stress/relief, the training method would lose it's appeal to many.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

untamed equestrian said:


> I agree that clicker training has been around for a while, however, I think it’s starting to gain more momentum in the horse world as a way of training and not just something that teaches your horse bad manners and to mug you. I haven’t watched all her videos but so far I haven’t heard her make any claim that she’s the first person to implement clicker training with horses. She presents one angle of +R among many other +R trainers, and even if you weren’t thrilled with her the Mystic Experiment is still interesting to watch.


Thank you for pointing that out.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Keno continues getting better and better at following the target. This afternoon when I came out of the feed room he spotted the target from about 50' away and with elevated head and ears headed my way. Super cool so I just waited. He touched the target, I treated and off we went.

This time I did not wait for him to chew before I walked off. As soon as I treated I started walking off.....slowly at first. I kept the target to my side and slightly behind watching it out of the corner of my eye.

When he reached it I clicked, stopped and rewarded, and then moved on. Toward the end I was having to walk pretty fast to keep the stops spread apart as he was speeding up a lot. So fun!

Eventually I hope to use the lead rope looped in my hand as a target and then my fist, or vice versa. And then target with the halter on, and then with the lead rope on the halter but just targeting. Probably the original target just to get the point across that this is not the old game of tension release.

After that is solid I'm hoping to add the CUE of a soft bump with the lead rope with the original target and then hopefully fade the target out and just soft bump and treat.

And maybe some day fade the bump after the added cue of walk on.

Or I may reverse some of this and get him to lead at liberty without the halter first and then add that for times he is in 'civilization' where it is required.

I'll have lots of time to decide on that as we walk around out in the field playing our new games.

I have been peeking into this rabbit hole for a while. I think I'm in past my shoulders now! 

I do want to add at least the bump on the lead rope as a cue. Maddy pointed out in one of her videos that there could be an emergency evacuation or who knows what where someone else would need to handle the horse and so should be trained to react favorably to the predominant commands. Sounded like a good idea.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Wow it sounds like your are making a lot of progress! 
Maddy definitely has some great ideas to look at!
Good luck with getting Keno to lead at liberty! That would be so cool.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> I do want to add at least the bump on the lead rope as a cue. Maddy pointed out in one of her videos that there could be an emergency evacuation or who knows what where someone else would need to handle the horse and so should be trained to react favorably to the predominant commands. Sounded like a good idea


I think this is a great idea. Tactile cues are a great way to make horse handling go smoothly if they are handled by someone who doesn’t use +R. My horse is boarded, so I’m the only one who uses +R with her. And if there is an emergency such as a fire, -R is fine to use, but these situations are also why we should train in advance for these scenarios.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

While I'm reading and watching several resources centered around positive reinforcement, I still find a lot of both inspiration and understanding in the area of positive reinforcement from Maddy.

This morning I watched the episode about using play to motivate your horse. For a person that young, she really pulls a lot of things together. As always, IMO.

I also downloaded the free 62 page ebook from Why does my horse struggle? mentioned at the first of the video. I haven't perused it yet but will.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Well, I started clicker training with the donkeys the past two days, and I am amazed with how well they're doing!
Lilly has really caught on very quickly, and is now coming right to me, and following me as I walk away a couple steps.
Ruby is less into it, a little cautious, but she is getting a lot more confident and comfortable around me.
I was kind of hesitant to do anything with Tim for a while though, because he gets very moody and nippy when he gets treats, so I wasn't going to do anything with him, but then I thought of the clicker training! So now I click and pat him on the shoulder. He is already pretty friendly so I thought maybe starting him on tricks.
It is rather hard to work with them, and I am probably confusing them because they are all in a big field together, so they all come to me, and I am sure that they can't quite differentiate between when I click for Lilly, rather than Ruby, but, that is as good as it is going to get.
I am kind of doing the same thing as Maddy though. They are in a big 10 acre field, with hay, and other animals they can go visit, they aren't in a small round pen. So I am really happy that the girls are coming to me now. 
Okay, I could say a lot more, but I'll stop there. I am so happy that I found out about clicker training, and it has really helped so far! I can't wait to keep working with them.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

That is super! Glad to hear!

Having them all together for the initial introductions is one thing, but as you and they progress, I'm wondering if it could be a good idea to set up a training area where they can't mix with too many distractions.

This from someone who has just barely started +R himself.

It is amazing how quickly they can pick up on little mistakes from the handler. "Oh, he clicked just before I touched the target! I guess that means I don't have to touch it to get my reward?" By catching it quickly, it only took 3-4 repetitions to get that straightened out.

So I don't think you would want to click when one might be doing something you did not want to reinforce. These equines are very very specific about everything it seems. Like very literal.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Yeah, I need to work with that, usually they both touch at the same time, so that helps, but I'm sure they don't always do that.
It is easier the further I get, cause Ruby doesn't follow, just Lilly. Maybe it's cause I'm not rewarding Ruby enough that she is following. I don't know. I'll have to get them a separate pen soon.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Are they familiar with electric rope? If so, a temporary training area could be set up and taken down with each session. I have a similar situation with Keno some nights. I have spring handles on the ends of the rope where I undo it and just carry it to the fence line and leave it on the ground. Don't roll it up. Takes seconds to set up and take down.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

They haven't ever been in a rope, but they have been in a transportable electric fence. It is basically like page wire fencing, in that all the squares are connected, but it is shorter, maybe 2' tall, and it like a roll of it on stakes, that you drive into the ground, and hook it up.
I guess I could set that up for them, I would need to run power to the barn, but maybe... I'll have to look into that. The only other option for them, is a round pen. Which we have, and I would _love_ to use. But it is across their pen, and in though another pen, then into the round pen. And they won't like being moved their and back every day. They don't lead very well, so I would need to herd them there and back. So that won't work, but maybe the electric fence. That's not a bad idea.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I know the fence you describe. I have 200 feet of it I used to use to contain my dog when camping. Didn't like to tie her up.

My horse has been introduced to electrified rope so I don't even have the rope turned on. He won't touch it.

Why herd them to the round pen? Maybe you could continue with the 'herd' following like you were today and then only allow one in the pen? I have no idea if it's a good or bad idea to do it that way.

Not sure how Maddy and others do it, but many trainers have horses doing things in unison. Or donkeys.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Hmm, I probably could do that. Lilly follows me around the pen as I walk around, as long as I'm slow, and stop to reward her every couple steps. 
Only problem would be that Lilly would come, but not Ruby. And Ruby is the one I really want to work with, because she won't follow. It's complicated I know. I also couldn't use the pen for a while cause there are piglet feeders in there that should probably be taken out cause they still have grain in them that she will get distracted with. 
I guess maybe I could use a different pen. It's not a round pen, more of a trapezoid. But it's still small, and would work for what I want. 
Oh, actually. Maybe I could just use the barn. The front 'lobby' area is pretty small and I just cleaned it out, so there isn't anything to get distracted by.
Sorry, I'm kind of thinking out loud.
I will work on it tomorrow, and see what works. The farrier is coming out tomorrow, so they will be in the barn, and maybe I'll do some training with them before and after the farrier.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Ok, lead the others to somewhere, and then go back and work with Ruby by herself?

Innovation is one of the requirements for +R!


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

trailscout said:


> Innovation is one of the requirements for +R!


Lol! Totally!


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Recent comments by Maddy about personal Congruence:

"Your horse can’t trust you without this.⁣
⁣
Congruence is an ever-challenging, yet worthy endeavor.⁣
⁣
When you’re being congruent, you are acting on the outside as you feel on the inside.⁣
⁣
... Which is in contrast to suppressing emotion this is when you try to push down & ignore your feelings, acting as if everything is fine on the outside.⁣
⁣
Additionally, congruence is being true to your values across all aspects of your life.⁣
⁣
How does congruence have an effect on trust with horses?⁣
⁣
Horses are incredibly intuitive. They can _feel_ our emotions, often better than we can if we aren’t tuned into ourselves. This is why they make such amazing therapy animals.⁣
⁣
Now, if I’m working with my horse & I’m being incongruent by suppressing the emotion of anger, my horse is going to see me acting serene on the outside, but _feel_ my inner intensity.
⁣
The horse knows that this mix is volatile & could produce an explosion at any moment.⁣
⁣
We’ve all been told to control our emotions around horses, because they’ll often match our energy/react to our fear.⁣
⁣
However, if we’re attempting to _control_ our emotions, we are really just suppressing them, creating a lack of trust.⁣
⁣
So... What can I do to stay congruent?⁣
⁣
If strong emotions are coming up for me that aren’t conducive to a training session, I don’t try to control my emotions. Instead, I’ll leave the training session and actually process my emotions.⁣
⁣
I thank the horse for showing me where I need healing, and I take care of myself.⁣
⁣
Then, I come back to my horse, rejuvenated & one step further into my own healing... instead of causing discomfort & mistrust by being incongruent.⁣
⁣
I would like to add that congruence is important with trust in human relationships & the relationship we have with ourselves. ⁣
⁣
If I prioritize having compassionate training methods for horses, but cannot extend that same compassion toward my fellow human or myself...⁣
⁣
Then I am being incongruent. This is why I prioritize my inner work, and why you’ve seen me speaking out for human rights.
⁣
Congruence is key. "


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Being able now to confidently lead Keno with a target is really removing a lot of stress and worry that I have been having almost every time I go to lead him. He has always led on a loose lead without any coaxing.

But now he has some issues that cause him to not want to move enough to keep what muscles he has from disappearing entirely.

So I have been having to use stronger encouragement than I ever have and have not been comfortable with it. The old saying, don't exercise a lame horse. But some things require exercise to get better.

But how much. How much resistance should be acknowledged? When should nurse Ratchet back off?

Enter +R and a clicker and a target. He comes when, if, how, and how fast HE chooses. No more worries. And he's getting much more exercise than I would 'MAKE' him do before.

If others ever find themselves in the same situation, I highly recommend the +R, target and clicker route.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

*Warning*: Beware the fast learners!!

If, actually when I have, accidentally clicked Keno a millisecond prior to him touching the target, he doesn't touch it. Well, I clicked so I treated.

Each time this has happened, 😯 the next time he reaches out for the target, he stops his nose a millimeter from it. I say target as he starts to turn expectant of a reward. "Huh? You still want me to touch the target? I thought you had changed the rules again. Ok." Touch, and we're on our way again. Seems he learns a wee bit faster than I!


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Lol! Luckily my donkeys aren't that smart! I think. Maybe they are, and I just don't know it! lol!


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

And here's a few words of inspiration from Shawna copied from my inbox. I am subscribed.














 



 


 












 


To be successful in Positive Reinforcement (R+) it is essential that you have an understanding of what you are looking for from your horse. 

Whether you are focused on:

teaching a specific behavior
addressing a problem
building your horse’s confidence
changing your horse's emotional state
improving your relationship
_Let me explain…_

While many people think of using positive reinforcement (R+) to overcome a problematic behavior or to train a specific behavior, it is _so_ much bigger and deeper than that.

The best part is that when we systematically use R+ in our horse(s) lives, we also change their emotional state, increase their confidence as well as improve our relationship. All of this results in a happier horse (and a happier human!).​

 



 


 












 



 


 


When I first acquired Murray, an OTTB, he was four years old and worried about most everything in his world. People, other horses, as well as most things around him, sent him into a high alert. I knew that I needed to profoundly change the way he viewed the world, on every level. However, I knew that this type of emotional change doesn’t happen quickly, it would take time.

I decided to start addressing some of his *problematic behaviors* while teaching him some *new novel behaviors*, in the process creating new, desirable associations with his world, people and learning.

One of his areas of mistrust was having people touch him anywhere on his head or body. Initially, he would somewhat tolerate being touched and handled, but would be pretty tightly wound and even evasive at times. This needed to be addressed early for overall health and safe handling.​

 



 


 


​

 












 


First, I had to know what I wanted the finished behavior to look like. 

The ability to touch him all over without causing a fear response? That seems pretty simple. But actually, it takes a more detailed breakdown on my part, in order to bring more clarity to Murray in a way he would understand. So at this point in the training process, I have a choice, approach it from behaviors I don’t want, or approach it from behaviors I do want.

*I DO NOT WANT:*

_I *don’t want* him to flinch when I touch him._
_I *don’t want* him to react to me touching his sheath or belly. _
_I *don’t* *want* him fussing when I touch him outside of his stall. _
_I *don’t want* him avoiding the touch of others._
In these detailed examples of the behaviors, I am trying to anticipate what may be the outcome of the training process. But in my potential troubleshooting answers, I am focusing on what I do NOT want, instead of what I DO want to achieve with my training.

*These are more productive responses to the troubleshooting questions:*​

 



 


 












 



 


 


*This is a fundamental concept* – and one of the five *Priority to Positive®* principles to utilize R+ effectively with your horse(s). Think about it this way:

Communicate to the horse *what I do want*, instead of focusing on what I don’t want.
*Reinforce* the desirable behavior, instead of correcting the incorrect behavior.​

 



 


 


​

 












 


We have looked at what we as the human element of this equation should be doing, but what is the benefit for the horse? The huge reward is that by systematically and consistently utilizing R+ to teach these physical behaviors, we change a horse’s outlook on life. Truly, the psychological changes that can happen for the horse are astounding.

In Murray’s case, I used R+ to train specific behaviors and I included giving him lots of freedom to choose. I not only trained these behaviors from a positive approach, but the embracing of this learning resulted in a more curious, confident and trusting horse. Through this work, Murray learned to enjoy life instead of finding it all so frightening.​

 



 


 


​

 












 


Do you know what you want? Or do you focus on what you don’t want? Do you clearly communicate to your horse when they do something well? Or do you spend more time correcting what they don’t do well? 

So this is a look at the behavior in the big picture and how we humans can be more effective. In a later communication, I will discuss some tips on how we can successfully break the training down to the smaller steps.​


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

A short quote from a blog by Maddy:

emphasis by me

Quote: This causes the horse to react back with more fear, causing us to react again and the cycle continues. Eventually the horse either submits out of fear and shuts down emotionally–at which point they are labeled as *trained*–or becomes so anxious or aggressive that they are labeled as *untrainable*.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Ok. I tend to often miss things on my first reading or video viewing. Things right in front of me. In a video, I suspect it may be that I'm concentrating on something that was just said and then miss some following statements.

Anyhow, I watched the first introductory video by Maddy about the Mystic Experiment again yesterday.

What I had missed:

1. In her HCA course she will be teaching both negative and positive reinforcement techniques.

2. Although Amira was started at liberty in a round pen using +R until rehabilitated to a certain point, most of her training for the mustang makeover was done with -R.

3. After Mystic is rehabilitated to some point, the plan is (or was) to transition her over to -R training.

The reason given for transitioning to -R was that horses living in a human environment needed to learn to give to pressure for the safety of both horses and humans. And of course true -R cannot be done without aversives.

In listening to this, I got the impression that the +R liberty training is used mostly for the emotional rehabilitation of horses that have been mishandled with a gentle form of natural horsemanship training to follow.

Now on the other hand, Shawna Karrasch's personal horse that either has or will soon turn 28 YO was trained (taught) using 100% +R from an early age, forgot the age but I think it was either 1 or 2.

No aversives or -R was used at all as I understand.

Shawna said that multiple riders only familiar with -R trained horses have ridden Shawna's horse without noticing any difference in the riding or handling of a -R trained horse.

The pressure commands given by the riders, whose hands/legs I suspect were very light, were apparently simply interpreted by her horse as a +R cue that her horse had learned to associate with pleasure and so responded as taught and experienced.

So this would seem to argue with the need for a domesticated horse's need to learn to respond to pressure if the same can be done with tactile cues.

So this leaves me a bit bumfuzzled. I still think the videos and blogs by Maddy are more than very helpful and instructive for both horse/human interactions and the personal awareness that she deems so important for the horse/human connection.

My own personal desires in +R training does not include any tricks as such. For those that do, I do not denigrate in the least. Just not what I am personally hoping for.

I just want a trail horse that responds to +R training with tactile cues as Shawna's personal horse does. So that leaves me eventually leaning more in the direction of Shawna and other 100% +R trainers.

Maddy seems to be drawn more and more toward +R in her discussions on the videos. She is young. It will be interesting to see what she does in the years that come and to see if she becomes one of those 100% +R trainers.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I'm now enjoying Shawna's podcasts. She has 47 that are about an hour long each, at least so far. Here's No. 1 https://shawnakarrasch.com/?s=#1

While listening this morning it dawned on me that this is what I did when I was raised! Only we called it listening to the radio. My parents did not have a TV until after I left home. We would sit around in the living room listening to radio programs. Sometimes doing other stuff while we listened. Sometimes passing the butter churn around. In the summer we would often be snapping pole beans for canning the next day.

I think I digressed.

Although Shawna has raised horses from babies with pure +R, most of her focus seem to be helping people with horses that have various problems that are ridden with -R and that have been trained with -R but buy using +R in the procedures addressing the problems.

Most of her clients seem to be clients with papered horses. I've not read or heard of her training wild mustangs. No doubt she could and may have, but not that I've ran across.

When Maddy had what sounds like a mini break down of sorts and canceled all of her tours and went back to her fathers ranch, she said she immersed herself into all the methods of the top +R trainers. Which I'm sure must have included Shawna.

Her program resembles Shawna in many ways but Maddy has staked out an area that consists of mustangs and particularly mustangs that failed at training. 3rd strike and worse.

Even though she seems at this time to be using +R to prepare the horses to be able to accept gentle -R, I think that's great. And there is no reason that once someone uses her experience with wild mustangs they can't continue with Shawna and stay in +R.

I am actually wanting to adopt a wild mustang and searching for info is how I ran across Maddy. I'm glad I did!!

I've listened some to Mary Hunter, Equiosity, and others, but most do not have the volume on my laptop that makes easy listening for me. I plan to get some bluetooth speakers, head phones, or ear buds once I figure out what I want. I don't use a smart phone anymore so not sure what I could carry around with me at a distance from my wifi. Oh well, I'll figure it out.

With 40+ hours of Shawna to listen and re-listen to I'll have time to figure it out. Plus re-watches of Maddy of course. I'm like a horse. I need this stuff coming in small steps with lots of repeats!


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

trailscout said:


> With 40+ hours of Shawna to listen and re-listen to I'll have time to figure it out. Plus re-watches of Maddy of course. I'm like a horse. I need this stuff coming in small steps with lots of repeats!


LOL! I feel the same way!! I need to subscribe to Maddy, and I keep meaning to getting around to listening to Shawna. Seems like she has a lot of good info!


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> The reason given for transitioning to -R was that horses living in a human environment needed to learn to give to pressure for the safety of both horses and humans. And of course true -R cannot be done without aversives.
> 
> In listening to this, I got the impression that the +R liberty training is used mostly for the emotional rehabilitation of horses that have been mishandled with a gentle form of natural horsemanship training to follow.


I would definitely have to disagree with this opinion. I like Maddy and I think she uses -R gently and well, however, it’s absolutely not true that horses need to be switched over to -R for safety. Yes, horses should learn how to deal with pressure, but they don’t need to be trained using pressure. I agree with Shawna, and if you use tactile cues it can be easy for a +R trained horse to be ridden by a -R rider and still respond correctly.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> I would definitely have to disagree with this opinion. I like Maddy and I think she uses -R gently and well, however, it’s absolutely not true that horses need to be switched over to -R for safety.


I hope I did not give the impression that I do agree with the opinion opined by Maddy on the need for horses eventually learning to give to pressure for safety concerns. I certainly also do not agree and is my reason for adding the example of Shawna's personal horse.

I should also comment on why I think it's great that Maddy is using +R to gentle and rehabilitate distressed horses even though she indicates -R will follow. The distressed horses future was very dim and grave. No intended pun on the word 'grave'. So through Maddy, the horses have a fair shot at a reasonably happy future. And that's a good thing.

But I repeat, reading between the lines on Maddy's newfound enthusiasm around +R, I still would not be surprised if she one day becomes a staunch 100% +R trainer.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Maddy will always have a special place with me as it was she that provided the inspiration for me to 'get off the dime' and actually begin clicker/target training.

For now though, I am concentrating mostly on Shawna Karrasch's podcasts and beginning with #1.

After listening to #1 thru #3, as simple as all this seems, there are a handful of things I've done wrong. And the results have not been particularly good in those areas. But those areas will now be easily corrected.

Shawna's podcasts are really hands on nuts and bolts on exactly how to do stuff from the beginning and onward.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Shawna insists that the training absolutely must be fun for both human and horse. At the Sea World, she says that was an absolute requirement as the marine animals got all the food they wanted and all the social interactions they wanted whether they did any training or not. It was then up to the trainers to cause them to want to interact and play the games.

I think that's impressive. I was also impressed by her reporting that they often took the seals on walks right along the ocean bay where the seals could have easily escaped to the ocean but preferred to stay with their handlers.

It would be so nice for my horse to choose to be confined by me.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Stumbled upon this little quote by Rashid. Thought it lined up well with Maddy's mantra of "you can't connect with your horse until you connect with yourself".

Quote: "Horsemanship is the art of mastering our own movements, thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. Not the horses." Mark Rashd


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Today I ran across an article about the like system. Not the like system on this forum or Facebook. The system in our our horses bodies, and ours, that produces and distributes opiates.

A lot has been discussed about the fear system and the increases in cortisol that inhibits learning, and in the seeking system that provides so much motivation, energy, and learning.

And many positive reinforcement trainers have mentioned that it is the time between the bridge signal and the reward that produces the motivation and energy of the seeking system.

Well, guess what? When the object of seeking is reached or rewarded, the like system kicks in and turns off or diminishes the seeking system. Struck me that is why duration between the bridge and reward is sought after. And finally fading the bridge altogether so I guess they just keep seeking that big opiate hit.

And it's not just the horses, we work the same too. Actually, I'm projecting it onto the horses as the article was about the human animal. But from what the trainers say, sounds like the same thing going on. We're both mammals, right?


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

To Self:

Why does Maddy seem to constantly insist that we can't connect with our horses until we connect with ourselves?

Here's what I think.

Those who claim to know such things say that most people have two selves, the conscious self and the unconscious self.

I would not argue the point but I have believed this to be true for a long long time.

I also believe that the unconscious self is revealed through our body language. It exposes itself all over the place. And to it's entirety to our horses. That is the person they know, which is different than the one we may know. By connecting with our selves, I think, is meant to gain self knowledge of our unconscious self. And when we gain knowledge of our unconscious self, we begin behaving as we really are. And that is seen as honest by the horse and leads to a true connection.

Nothing in this is earth shatteringly new. But to put the stress and emphasis on connecting with one self in order to connect with one's horse in the way Maddy stress's it is, I believe, new.

A lot has been said about human emotions around a horse, but no one that I know of has just flat came out and said or claimed, do this or it just ain't ever gonna work the way you wish. (and in a non-confrontational way backed up with a big smile)

Thank you Self, I'll be thinking about this.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I don't subscribe to conditioning, either classical or operant, as presented in science literature, and I never have.

The literature says that when I and other children went running to meet the bells of the ice cream truck, we were conditioned by the bells as was Pavlov's dogs. When students leave class when the bell rings, they are said to be conditioned to leave at the sound of the bell.

I believe I, the other children running to the ice cream truck, the students leaving class, and in fact Pavlov's dogs were reacting to knowledge learned from cognitive thought.

But cognitive thought cannot be readily observed and quantified. Since thought could not be observed and quantified, I believe they just decided the bell rang, the dogs did this. And that was that. They needed a name to talk about it and decided on conditioning. And then Skinner expanded into operant conditioning with it's four quadrants.

Although the use of the definition of the four quadrants is quite useful, I think it may tend to turn a lot of people away from reward training that might otherwise move in that direction.

A dog wants to please us naturally and food or rewards are used to "teach" the dog what pleases us. And we in turn do what pleases the dog. A two way interchange of two bonded animals.

A horse is not normally thought of as wanting to please us as does a dog. But I'm no longer entirely certain that is true.

When we encourage a friend to engage in some activity they are reluctant to engage in but engage in it anyway because they are our friend, often come to the conclusion, "hey, that was fun".

I would like to think of training my horse rather than by using the idea of conditioning and to think of it as teaching them that stuff is fun using both food and our own enthusiasm along with the clicker and target when/or as used. 

And I fully believe that is what is happening. They are thinking about what's going on and learning by cognition. And for those in tune with the horse, that cognition can in fact be seen and viewed. During the few years I taught math, I could clearly see cognition and learning taking place on the subtle changes (and sometimes not so subtle) in facial expressions.

Pressure/release is just so plain and simple. Apply pressure until they react in a direction we desire and release the pressure. If reward based teaching could be made as clear, plain, and simple I think it would gain more traction than it has been gaining.

If people could just learn that it's not just about the horse working for food but rather using food to teach the horse a way to have fun, it would gain a lot more traction.

The concept of a horse that can truly say no without concern of repercussions but chooses to say yes, I want to go for a ride with you is just so exciting to me. That is something I have wished for from day one and it now seems possible and within reach.

End of today's ramblings..............


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I just read an article on Karen Pryor's website written by Alexandra Kurland in 2003 about how to get started clicker training a horse. She begins at day one minute one by presenting a target for the horse to touch to receive a click and food reward.

Shawna however, does not present a target until after the first two videos which translates into four weeks practicing the first two videos without a target. She feels these two lessons without the target are very important before the target is first introduced.

I am surprised and a little disappointed to find such a discrepancy between reward based trainers.

For now I will go with Shawna as she was trained by the people that were trained by the graduate students of Skinner who started the training of marine mammals using operant conditioning. Her first book was published in 2000 which was 5 years after she began her On Target Training program during which time she held many clinics.

A few days ago I completely put my target up and am still in the process of getting lesson #1 down solid solid from left to right front to back and all over. Maybe a step or two into lesson #2. It is going to take a while to progress to lesson #48.

After clicking on Podcasts on Shawna's site it can take forever at the bottom to get all the way back to #1. I tried clicking the search button at the top and simply entering #1 and wala! the #1 podcast opened up. I'm also downloading them into a folder on my desktop which I will eventually copy to a memory card to use in a portable player.

Everyone that decides to follow reward based equine interactions will have their favorite guru for sure. I'm also sure the horse will like them all!

BTW, there is an additional introductory post at the front of this journal explaining my thoughts as to why I transferred the Mustang Maddy thread into a journal.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Researching Alizé Veillard-Muckensturm. The Fairhorsemanship: Humane, science-based horse training website lists her as the trainer and states :

Quote: She is most known for being the author of the first equine clicker training book that did not suggest the use of any unnecessary aversive stimulation. Unquote

The only book I was able to find that she authored had a copyright date of 2017. Does that suggest the belief that other authors on the subject did suggest the use of unnecessary aversive stimulation? Humane, science-based horse training: Introduction to learning theory and exercises for everyday handling, care and fitness: Veillard-Muckensturm, Alizé: 9781999836306: Amazon.com: Books

I have not read the book but I would expect that it is positive and useful.

That said, I just read an article in Equus magazine about positive training by Janet Jones, Ph.D. from UCLA and taught the neuroscience of perception, language, memory, and thought for 23 years, that clearly stated that any thing the horse receives that is desirable to the horse is a reward, including rest from work. I would like to ask her if she considers releasing the tension on the reins as something the horse desires therefore being a reward. Training horses with reward

This is troubling to me. I personally am beginning to default more and more to Shawna Karrasch whom I'm beginning to believe all others are an offshoot from with some of those offshoots getting some things incorrect.

It seems that one must just be so critical in examining anything that is written anywhere about the equine to avoid acting on incorrect information written on the web or elsewhere. 

That's a wrap for this morning.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Keno's training has taken a slight dip. I remembered from past reading somewhere that the first thing that should be trained was keeping the head away and not mugging.

Using only the clicker, and clicking when his head turned even slightly back away form me, he got really good in the first session of less than five minutes. So I decided to move on the using the target.

Mistake. Shawna pointed out that just because a horse turns his head away to get the click and reward, that doesn't mean he is soundly trained with a strong reward history.

Plus, after litening to a few more podcasts by Shawna, it dawned on me tha Keno had strong several year history of being rewarded for mugging, which never bothered me and which I actually enjoyed.

But if he is going to progress in reward based training, that history has to be undone or over balanced with a new history. I'm sure it will happen in time, but to get it to where it's supposed to be will take a bit longer. But we'll stay there until there is no where any improvement can be made as the first three or four lessons form the basis of everything that follows. So all I'll be working on for a while is Podcast #1.









Equine Clicker 101 Lesson #1 - A New Way of Communicating and Bridge Signals by Jeffers Pet


An important element of horse training and equine behavior is communication. As we introduce positive reinforcement (R+) training techniques, we will first focus on teaching the bridge signal (for our purposes, we will use a clicker). Through this process, we will also practice manners around...




shawnakarrasch.com


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> I am surprised and a little disappointed to find such a discrepancy between reward based trainers


Just like with traditional trainers, different positive reinforcement trainers will have different approaches, training methods, and slightly different philosophies. Different horses may do better with different approaches. I would also caution against going with Shawna simply because of her background. Although she has a very impressive history in training it doesn’t make her the end all in clicker training. If Keno was doing fine with the target there is no reason why you have to stop using it. You can absolutely “mix” training methods from different trainers as well.


trailscout said:


> I have not read the book but I would expect that it is positive and useful


I’ve read it, it’s a great book. I really like her philosophy, she is strongly against -R. She uses a lot of free-shaping in her book. I would not think of release from reins as a reward. The horse desires the release but does not engage in the behavior because he craves the relief he gets when he is released from the aversive.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> Keno's training has taken a slight dip. I remembered from past reading somewhere that the first thing that should be trained was keeping the head away and not mugging.


Just thought I’d make a suggestion, although you may already be doing this. Don’t train the “head away” behavior where the horse actually bends his head all the way away from you. Click him when his head is centered and straight in the middle of his body. Feed him in the same position as well. This will help create a clean loop. Whenever you are training any other behavior, such as targeting, always feed him in the same centered position. This will help solidify the behavior and give him the peace of mind that his treat will always be given to him in the same spot.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Yes! The -R method is more appropriately called pressure/relief!

If you've read it, I'd be interested in your take on Shawna's first book.

I'm not clear on what mixing methods would be, but because of Keno's long and strong reward history for mugging (by me) I do think that behavior needs to be worked on until it is rebalanced. I think the mugging tendency I've taught him gets in the way of the reward procedure for other training. I used to always leave for a ride with bulging pockets of large treats. So he's not your average horse in that regard. My bad. So my fix.

We crossed posts. Right. I actually have treated him for his head being too far. Shawna does mention over and over to feed him where you want his head to be. No matter where it is after the click, feed him where you would prefer his head to have been.

So you and Shawna are at least on the same page there.

It's all so simple...........until one begins actually doing it.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Oh yeah. The target. Keno was doing great with the target until he wasn't. Not sure, but I think the problem may have been that rather than keeping the sessions short for several days until solid I decided to lead him on fairly long walks with it with the treats interval becoming longer and longer. I think I may have been drilling him or doing what Shawna calls the greedy trainer syndrome which means do a little more, or just one more, ok another, until the horse decides this isn't fun anymore. Went past the fun limit before the fun became intrinsically motivated. Or whatever.

Because of all that, I'm determined to get just the clicker down solid from any position I'm standing with his head forward and then slowly introduce the target again in several days of very short 5 minute sessions and progress slowly from there.

Shawna actually doesn't introduce the target until podcast #3. The second podcast is learning to walk along with the trainer off the trainer's shoulder. One step, two steps, etc. with solid liberty leading established in hopefully 2-3 weeks. Only after that does she introduce the target.

I know I'm more impressed with Shawna than you, and that's ok. We're all different, a fact that I rejoice in. The thing that sways me toward Shawna is the sheer volume of horses she works with. From starting horses as babies to older horses that have been through the mill with -R. But yeah, I don't and won't put blinders on. I'm much to inquisitive and questioning to ever do that.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Shawna Karrasch set up a YouTube channel in 2010 and has since added a TON of videos which I have begun perusing beginning with the oldest. 

There is a "Sort By" link on the channel that allows the order of the videos to be arranged from newest or oldest. I'm starting at the oldest. After viewing a video I simply hit the backspace arrow and select another without having to scroll all the way to the bottom.

I don't have a TV so stuff like this substitutes for a TV, for me.



https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnakarrasch/videos?view=0&sort=da&flow=grid


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

New Year's Resolution: To never ride a horse again without clear, informed, and enthusiastic consent from the horse.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Here's an interesting article by Mary Hunter praising Shawna Karrasch.









Creative training: From dolphins to equines | Stale Cheerios


The Online Equine Clicker Training Conference ended recently. I’ll be sharing some of my reflections about the conference presentations on my blog over the next few weeks. The conference featured three weeks of fascinating lectures about clicker training horses and other equine. You can still...



stalecheerios.com


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Quote: Despite the apparent similarities, however, there is an essential difference between luring and targeting. As Ken Ramirez, ClickerExpo faculty member and Training Director for the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago, explains: "In luring, the animal is focused on the food. The trainer uses the food to guide the animal toward a desired behavior, just as a trainer would use a target to guide the animal. What goes on in the animal's head, however, may be significantly different. Luring keeps the animal thinking about the reinforcement or the treat, while targeting gets the animal thinking about the task."


While both methods may succeed in getting the behavior, a lured animal may be so focused on the treat that it is not aware of what behavior it has just accomplished to earn the reinforcement. Less learning, therefore, has been accomplished. An animal that follows a target, on the other hand, may still be working to receive a treat, but because the treat is not right in front of him, the animal must think about the actual behavior. The result is an animal that is more engaged in the process, has accomplished more learning, and is more able to apply that learning to any number of other behaviors.



Targeting vs. Luring | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

A thought provoking article by Karen Pryor





__





Hidden Aversives: Are You Punishing Unconsciously? | Karen Pryor Clicker Training







clickertraining.com


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Friend sent this.

Call it melodramatic, and it probably is, but I liked it anyhow. Well, it has horses. I also particularly liked the part about a new fresh snow without footprints representing the year now before us.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

This morning I listened to a podcast on The Willing Equine that discussed an early book by Lucy Rees discussing the true nature of who and what a horse really is. Then I went to Lucy Rees' website and read the "about" part. Then I went to YouTube and watched a few videos by Lucy Rees.

Then a thought struck me. What if some advanced life form, extraterrestrials, rounded up humans and kept them as we do horses in servitude to them? Would the humans develop problems from the confined servitude as domestic horses are believed to develop?

What would a movie or film look like that was based on the accurate research by professionals of both humans and horses in and out of confinement?

The thought also struck me that since there is wide agreement that the horse is one of the highest fear and most flight prone mammals, that the horse may also be one of the most prone to post traumatic stress disorders. 

Research on PTSD establishes that when both flight and fight are both unavailable as reactions to the perception of a life threatening situation for an extended period of time, PTSD develops which often affects the behavior on a 24/7 basis for both human, horse and other mammals for an extended period of time after the threatening situation has ceased.

This leads me to wonder how many horses are shut down and in reality suffering from PTSD. How many horses would do what we ask or require of them if they really had a choice? This question continues to loom larger and larger for me.

End of morning's ramblings.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> If you've read it, I'd be interested in your take on Shawna's first book.


I haven't read it, but its on the list, lol. Actually, I just got the book Connection Training by Hannah Weston. Although I had heard of Panksepp's emotional systems before, I had never looked to far into them. The book really covers it in depth and it has been very interesting!


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> Although I had heard of Panksepp's emotional systems before


I have also ran across the same and have also not looked too far into it. Main thing I remember is it being called, Grandma's Rule. If you do this first, then you can do this. As in if you eat your broccoli, you can have your chocolate cake.

Haha. But I'm certain it goes a lot deeper than that along with some heavy reading.

Take this topic: BEHAVIOR IN RELATION TO AVERSIVE EVENTS: PUNISHMENT AND NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT

Sounds pretty simple until the PDF is downloaded and read. Not so simple reading.









(PDF) Behavior in relation to aversive events: Punishment and negative reinforcement


PDF | On Jan 1, 2012, P.N. Hineline and others published Behavior in relation to aversive events: Punishment and negative reinforcement | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Oops. I was thinking of something else. But yes, I've read of the seven emotions. First in Temple's 'Animals In Translation' and a few other places since.

Here's a little article by Mary Hunter you might enjoy. The scientific case for emotional feelings in animals


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

And another 3 strike mustang gets lucky.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Testing


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> Actually, I just got the book Connection Training by Hannah Weston.


I was reviewing this book online at Amazon this morning via my kindle reader. There was a supportive video mentioned, The Way Horses Feel, so I went to YouTube and searched for the title. Lo and behold, she shows Shawna Karrasch targeting a horse in the video. That fact alone causes me to be interested in the book. But I had just ordered my long over due copy of Don't Shoot The Dog so I'll wait a while on ordering it. But the review does look compelling.

Edit: Here's a screen shot from the video The Care System.

I highly approve the teacher Connection Training is following










Edit again: I just finished reading the free preview of Chapter 1 and part of Chapter 2. This is a great book and will definitely be my next book purchase. It could also serve as a course in human psychology. Thanks for posting about it.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Mustang Maddy refers to herself as the Compassionate Cowgirl and reminds viewers in each of her Mystic series that, "Remember, you can't have compassion for your horse, until you have compassion for yourself".

And she tells a little story she heard about empathy vs compassion. Empathy would be feeling for a poor plant indoors without sunshine that was wilting whereas compassion would be taking the plant outside in the sun where it could thrive.

Well, I stumbled upon an article about compassion and it sure dovetails with everything she pushes. Caught my attention when the article said self criticism activates the same part of the brain that is activated fear in fight or flight. Yup, we're just like horses in so many ways.

The article went on to say that you can't have compassion for others until you have compassion for yourself. Just like Maddy except the others is horses.

And the article went on to say a person could not even receive or accept compassion until they had compassion for themselves.

The article sure brought up a lot of thoughts about the +R I've been delving into.

Just in case....here's the article: Silence Your Inner Critic: A Guide to Self-Compassion in the Toughest Times


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

Ok, so I’ve been waiting for this course to open for a few months and it’s finally starting a new session. The Pain Science course by Kathy Sierra is finally reopening and I think I’m definitely going to sign up. I first heard about her on an episode of Spirit of Horse where she talked about pain, movement, and motivational science. After watching the preview videos for the course I‘m determined to learn more about encouraging horses to move boldly and have freedom and better control over their bodies. I highly recommend visiting her website and taking a look at the videos she has up. There are only a couple days left before the course starts, so if you’re interested in watching the free video series she has up right now or joining the course I would act fast.




__





Pain Science Workshop







www.pantherflow.com




Also, here’s the original podcast episode that got me interested: https://open.spotify.com/episode/24JYACGPn5aHkQ644nZpf5
Its long but it’s well worth your time!


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

Here’s a video of Kathy Sierra working with one of her horses. Just look at that movement....


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> I think I’m definitely going to sign up.



I watched the video and part of the podcast. I will finish it.

My discretionary funds have been spent on materials for a BlM spec round pen for a mustang so I'll have to depend on your detail reports for now if you do sign up.

I am interested in pain and just read an article somewhere recently on reading a horse's face for expressions of pain. Mostly in the lips but other areas also.


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

trailscout said:


> I watched the video and part of the podcast. I will finish it.
> 
> My discretionary funds have been spent on materials for a BlM spec round pen for a mustang so I'll have to depend on your detail reports for now if you do sign up.
> 
> I am interested in pain and just read an article somewhere recently on reading a horse's face for expressions of pain. Mostly in the lips but other areas also.


Well, I just signed up, so I will keep you updated on the course and what I learn! I've been waiting for it to open up again, so I'm excited to get started. I'm also curious to learn more about your future mustang...will you be training it with +R?
After learning about warning signs in horses its really helped me to notice small things before they escalate into something bigger. Tight lips, swishing tail...etc. Its definitely an area I'm interested in learning more about.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian said:


> will you be training it with +R


Absolutely! That is why I finally decided to select an unhandled horse, to minimize the amount of forceful handling it had experienced, even though the training in the holding pens is gentle b -R standards, it's still -R. They all have been handled some for husbandry but not as much as others.

The clean slate seems to be easier to train and with me being a beginner, easier is a good thing.

I don't want to try a three strike mustang, but I do want to adopt one that would not be likely to be adopted. That would mean one at least over six and maybe one over 10.

I emailed the founder of Mustang Camp asking her opinion about training older mustangs with +R since the BLM thinks over 10 is untrainable using -R. She answered back right away wit totally trainable. so that's encouraging.

She has had over 600 mustangs through her non profit with some being total herd gathers from the National Forest with the normal ages of a full herd. And she gentled the entire herds.

As soon as the pen is finished I will submit an application for adoption to the BLM and at that time I'll talk to the local BLM holding facility about what they have and what they recommend.

The pen would be finished in a couple of week but rain is in the forecast for the latter part of next week and I'm not too keen on doing AC arc welding in the rain. Could be more excitement that I prefer


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## untamed equestrian (Nov 16, 2020)

That's awesome! I've never bought into the whole romantic version of the "unbreakable, tall, thoroughbred-looking mustang", but I think they are well put together, smart horses. It's a pity more people don't consider them. If you don't mind sharing your progress once you get your mustang I would be intrigued to hear about how your training goes. I kept an eye on the last BLM auction and some of the flashier pinto horses hauled in $2,000+.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

I'll be posting for certain on my progress, or lack thereof. I'm committed to the idea that if I have problems, it'll be me and my lack of +R experience and not the horse.

Most BlM mustangs are between 14/15hh. If there was one that tall it would likely be one someone turned out. I saw one in a wild herd a few years back with a halter.

The thing that draw me toward a mustang is that they have a lot of rugged terrain experience which is what I like to ride in. Plus, there is no way for a horse's foot to develop as well as it does when traveling 10-20 miles each and every day from birth.

I know the BLM has auctions but had no idea one would ever sell for $2,000. All third strike mustangs and mustangs over 10 years old can be purchased outright with immediate title for $25.00. To adopt one that is unhandled with the option of returning during the first year is $125.00. The returns are where the 3 strike mustangs come from.

I will not even be looking at flashier. Calm and curious is what I'll look for. Particularly curious.

During some sessions with Keno today I began trying to build some duration between the click and the reward. As I was doing it, it dawned upon me that it should be called building anticipation because that is what the duration is for I'm pretty sure. It's the anticipation that a reward is coming that jazzes up the seeking system which goes way down after the food is received and the other drugs kick in. But it's good that I've waited as the clicker has to be really strong before duration is added, or so I understand.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Just checked my email and received my bi-weekly email from Shawna and she addressed something I've been wondering about as picking up feet will be something I'll want to accomplish as early as possible with the new horse.

She just watches the horse until there is the tiniest weight shift from one front to the other and clicks at that very nano second. And repeat repeat repeat. And that I believe is why there needs to be a very strong reward history with the click so the horse will really really focus on what he was doing when the click was made with the treat that follows.

This +R training is not something to be approached haphazardly I'm beginning to think.


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Ah well....


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Words of wisdom from MustangMaddy worth a reprint.

"And you know what?⁣
⁣
Humans are the exact same way.
⁣
When we are fearful... We lash out. We run. We hide. 
⁣
When someone attacks, they are revealing to you their deepest fears and vulnerabilities ⁣
⁣
We have the choice to retaliate with fear, and feed the cycle of reactivity or respond with compassion and break free of it."


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

untamed equestrian



Glad to see you back on the forum. I assumed you were dedicating all disposable time to the pain enrollment you entered.

+R has changed more than how I want to proceed training a horse and has as much or more to do with how I now perceive a horse, which in my heart has I believe always been there. This in particular has made it difficult to even talk to people that can find so many ways to present faulty conclusions that +R is only good sometimes in terms of giving treats as rewards but is both faulty and otherwise inferior to -R training not to mention how unsafe actual +R training is.

When someone that has very little actual experience with horses says something like Shawna Karrasch is clueless about horses with others that also support that opinion I wonder why I even stay here or would respond.

The only thing I can now benefit from being on this forum seems to be to learn to calm myself in the face of what I so deeply oppose. If I can learn to calm myself in the face of someone who so vehemently opposes what I hold dear, that will be a major accomplishment on my part.

You are the only person in real life or on a forum that I've ran across that seems to fully share what I feel for what and who the horse really is. 

It is just so incongruous to hear people talk about a horse being a friend and partner who they will freely punish when THEY determine punishment should be applied. I need to learn to accept it as something I cannot change and look for things I can change.

Welcome Back!

PS: I tried to post this in a PM but that is limited to 420 characters and I find it difficult to throttle myself to 420 characters!


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## trailscout (Nov 23, 2020)

Early morning is my favorite time of the day and a time I often ruminate about various aspects in or of my life.

This morning the realization came to be that I abhor the notion of dominating the horse. Really always have. If my relationship with a horse would require me to dominate the horse, then I would have no further desire for a relationship with a horse. But I do not believe dominating a horse necessary for successful interaction with a horse.

And I do believe that pressure/release training is based on a dominant relation to the horse. The terms such as cue, aids, and ask are only used to disguise the dominant attitude towards the horse.

These thoughts cause me to wonder if some of the draw towards horses by some people is in some way a means of obtaining a sense of personal power by being able to dominate such a large and powerful animal and cause it to serve their interests and will. 

This would certainly explain the sometimes vehement defense of both pressure/release and punishment training.


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