# Aggressive gelding; abuse or dominance?



## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

This is a really interesting situation. You basically did what I would have done- lounging him to get his respect. Although from what you said, he was bossing only the other horses around, and did nothing to you or the other people, and only started misbehaving with people after you did this. If he was behaving with people, I would have left him alone, whether he bossed the other horses around or not. Did you do this because he misbehaved with people? How is he when ridden/ worked with/ around people?
I do have a theory, lol... You might want to go and have a look at how that farm treats their horses. I'm sensing something very peculiar here... If what I think is the problem is right, he's probably a naturally dominant horse used to people backing down when he acts aggressive, therefore he doesn't get lounged and is 'allowed to act how he wants', and when they want something from him, they just use violence (hence, acting like a puppy dog when the guy hit him in the stall with the rope) to force him into doing it. His violent behavior can also be a defense against their violence- a dominant horse will react like that as a defense mechanism. I'm wondering if they use harsh tack on him for giving rides, etc.- how was he when he was ridden? My guess, from what you've said, is they're probably people who don't know how to work with horses and use pain/ violence to get what they want from them...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Maybe you lunged them in a way the owner did not find helpful.

One time, when I first began to lunge on my own, I had this sweet mare charge me down. From then on she gave me problems, trying to bite me, kicking out, etc. The owner was ****ed, and made me lunge her again and gave me tips on what to do. After that, we got along fine but she still didn't really like me all that much.

A similar situation with a grey mare. This volunteer was asked to lunge her. The next day, *I* was leading her and the freaking mare reared on me, I was so confused so I stood there and eventually she got bored and came down then we continued walking. I asked the girl what she did, and she said when she lunged her, the mare charged after her and then pinned her ears and tried to kick so she got scared and kind of gave in. 

So then I go to lunge her, she tries to run me over. I whacked that mare so hard on her rump every time she came close. After awhile she stops trying to charge me, and I become "nice" again.. and she was a very nice horse from then on until she got handled by another person who let her get away with something.


Maybe that horse was used to getting its way (like with the grey mare) and it needed a good fixing from the owner. Maybe you let something slip or didn't correct (like in the first example) and it got exponentially worse. 

It's hard to tell, but that's what I know from experience.

You let them slip once, or settle for something less than perfect.. that's what you'll get :/ Which is why training a horse is quite the task.. it's hard to realize when they begin to slip into the "half-***-try" mode or you let them get away with something.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Making a horse move, run around you (basically lunging) is a very, very dominant behaviour by horse standarts. If a horse hasn't accepted the lunger as a leader yet and feels cornered/challenged/dominated, then aggressive behavior is almost bond to happen (of course, the extent of it depends on the horses' character and background). I agree completely with soenjer here.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

When I have worked at any guest ranch I have not felt the need to correct herd dynamics. If the horse was doing his job well and safely than I don't mess with them. Herd dynamics are not going change post round penning. I would be more inclined to think you found a training "gap" than abuse. Some horses don't like to be free lunged or round penned and are aggressive when in that situation. That might be why this horse is at this horse outfitters. I think you tried to do what you would have done with your own horse but forgot that this is not your horse. So it has different skills. When you work for a camp you are not there to train the horses but to train the campers. That can be a fine line is easily crossed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Oops, I will clarify: The gelding was a terror from day one, to everyone. We assumed it was nerves/new herd dynamic/pain/whatever, but as he got to be dangerous rather than simply rude, I decided to put my foot down. 

So, he was being rude, pushy, and generally a big snotty brat to people and horses alike. He was being ridden ever day at a slow walk in 1.5 hour intervals, and on breaks taken to the longer trail by one of us for a cool down, and usually retired for the day after that. He began trying to buck us off and crow hop shortly before I lunged him. 

I think he felt threatened, and his way to cope was to charge. Not sure how old he was; owners said 18 or so, but he acted like a freshly cut younger stud. Moved like a jumper. Who knows what his past was.


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## longshot (May 30, 2012)

WHile I have never been in a situation of leasing out horses to anyone, let alone a camp. If someone took it upon themselves to lunge/train one of my horses without consulting me, I'd be in a snit too. Not saying you lunged them wrong or did anything that would cause the bad behavior. What you described wouldn't have caused it. The problem is you put yourself in a post-hoc position where the owner can blame you because the horse wasn't like that before. (doesn't matter if it was or wasn't) It was aggressive behavior, and the response should have been to immediately call the owners to come get the horse and replace it, not try to work it out of him. Love the initiative you showed and would love to have someone like you working around my barn, but the potential for disater in this situation was too great a risk...


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

No, you didn't do the right thing.

You let him decide when to quit and rewarded him by putting him away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Spurstop: What would you do in that situation? Very curious in the case that it happens again. 

To those saying I shouldn't be training horses that aren't mine; you are right. I think that is irrelevant to my question, though. I wanted to know behaviorally and training wise what was going on and if I did the right thing in that scenario. Nevermind whose horse it was or what my role as staff was. 

Thanks for reading this, everyone.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I know the question is for spurstop, but... I believe the correct thing to do would have been to keep the horse going until he did what you wanted- until he gave in and lounged for you, or at the very, very least quit acting aggressively. When he did what you wanted, he would then get the reward of his stall. By chasing him into his stall when he showed aggression, you showed him that if he acts like that, he gets to go into his stall and rest- Hence, the worsened behavior afterwards.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks! The reason I stopped was because I was actually scared of him. Every step I took, he would take two towards me, striking with his front feet and throwing his head, occasionally half rearing. I did not trust him or know him enough to know if he would intentionally hurt me. I unfortunately let myself get cornered before I dropped my lunge whip.

So how would you have gone about getting him to get back to work in this potentially very dangerous situation? I am glad I was in a large space; I would probably have jumped the fence if we had been in a round pen - that's how aggressive he was being.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I definitely don't blame you for backing off if you felt he was too dangerous. You did the right thing, as I assume he is not opposed to hurting people. I would have alerted someone that you were going to work with him- I believe that when working with unfamiliar horses and horses that are known to have issues, it's always best to have someone there as a precaution.
This sounds like a very serious situation, and especially with an 18 year old horse- from my experience, older horses generally don't change their ways as well. I'm going to assume that he is a horse trained using fear, and purely negative enforcement- if he misbehaves he gets smacked with a rope, if he gives what they want, he gets left alone.
In this situation, I would probably go back to the beginning- forget lounging, first he needs to know that you're not going to hurt him. I think this is a defense mechanism for him, which goes back to my theory that the farm he comes from uses violence out of fear to get what they want from him. Did he seem irritated around people, or un-relaxed? I don't think he realizes that people can offer comfort, or that he can relax- people mean work, which is unpleasant to him. I would first try to make him feel comfortable around me, and show him that he doesn't always have to work- take him out of his stall, groom him, put him back, take him out, walk him around, give him a treat, put him back, etc. Obviously correct him if he tries to nip or misbehave, but don't forget to speak kindly to him and scratch him if he does behave. Establish the boundaries and rules on the ground- Then, bring him out to work. Put him on the lounge line, get him relaxed, and when you get him to do any small amount of work (heck, walk one circle), in a relaxed manner, stop, praise him, and quit. That's just the process I would take, anyway.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Well I'm glad you aren't near that hot mess of a camp anymore. They sometimes don't have time for their horses so they begin to slack off and nobody notices. They slowly creep along and become more and more testy and soon you have a horse that thinks he is in charge.

It's a shame, but that's what happens when you don't keep them in tip top shape, and correct any poor behavior. Which isn't your fault..


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## spurstop (Mar 22, 2012)

I'm sure this will make someone upset, but you can't love a horse into learning manners. Sometimes, training a horse isn't pretty, and it's not a Disney movie. You sweat, the horse sweats, and sometimes you have knockdown dragouts. It's just what happens sometimes.

First, you worked him in an area that is normally where he is turned out, if I'm reading that correctly. To show that this was "work" time, I would have stuck a halter on him, along with a longeline and with a chain, and had a whip. Normally, I don't longe with a chain but knowing that this horse is a jerk, I would.

Running after the horse and hooting and hollering, and cutting in front to turn him, and all the jazz that the NH people love to do on RFD probably just frustrated him an annoyed him. This is his turnout space, and he's getting chased around. 

Had he been on a longeline, and started refusing to go, I would have stepped to the side, popped the whip. If that didn't work, I'd go ahead and whop him along with what I wanted "walk on" or "turn" or whatever. Sometimes, that puts you out of where you should really be longeing, and you may have to get farther behind to drive him forward, but once the direction and gait is established, you can get back in the right position.

If he continued to get aggressive, that's why I've got the chain across his nose. And I'd run him on back -- starting with using the chain until he's just going back with me moving toward him and verbally cuing him to back. Stop, lead him back to where I want him and send him back out again. No need to yell or scream, just send him back. Stop, breathe, and take him back forward.

Once he's doing what he's supposed to do, praise him, and let him work. When he's working well and listening, I'd stop and do a little in-hand stuff with him, and then put him away. He'd eventually figure out that when he does the right thing, he gets to stop and when he does the wrong thing he has to work extra hard and it's not very much fun.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you know , asking what others would do is not always a fair way to judge your own actions. We are not you. Some of us have more, some less experience than you do. I think you may have more experience with "typical' horses and their reactions, and this horse was just more than you are ready to deal with, . . . yet.
That kind of horse exists. I have met one. She got too big for me to deal with and I chose to back down. My mistake was pushing her too much , too directly face on. But , I did not know this , then. I can handle a bigger horse now, but I guarantee there are horses out there that are just too much for me. And one would hope that this becomes evident before it gets out of hand, but it doesn't always. This horse has been brought, through a life of dullness at the hands of beginner riders, and rough handlers, to the place where he is going to save himself at all costs. Only someone with the ability to convince him from the get go that 1. he cannot win. or 2. he has no need to behave this way, is going to be able to make him move willingly around in the arena that he thinks of as "his".

The very savvy horse person would not need to be more aggressive than the horse. They know ways to have the horse move here or there, thus giving up control of his feet, without bringing out the violent self preservation attitude.
But it takes a way of thinking that is not direct or confrontational. Takes a lot of experience. 
Or, a very confident person can use direction that is just so strong , backed up by whips and maybe a stud chain, that the horse gives in.
Both ways can affect the hrose to make him move and become submissive. But both take more than average amounts of experience and perhaps, hutzpah.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks for your opinions, everyone. I think he was indeed too much horse for me. I was frustrated with the owners for the way they handled him, and brought me an underweight, unsound horse for his replacement (who also turned out to be a snot, but this was due to pain). The other 3 horses were either mildly unsound off the trailer, or ended up loathing their job so much by the 4th week that they would throw such a fit that riders would almost be tossed. Worth noting all campers had disabilities and were essentially on a pony ride, no independent riders but myself and the other instructor. 

I am not attending this year, so it is no longer my concern. However, I feel that the camp needs to hire professionals, and choose a better source. My equestrian skills were not even questioned in my interview before I was hired at the last minute. 

Oh well. Can't win them all.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

RunSlideStop said:


> I am not attending this year, so it is no longer my concern. However, I feel that the camp needs to hire professionals, and choose a better source. My equestrian skills were not even questioned in my interview before I was hired at the last minute.
> 
> Oh well. Can't win them all.


Agreed.. don't let it get you down


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

spurstop said:


> I'm sure this will make someone upset, but you can't love a horse into learning manners. Sometimes, training a horse isn't pretty, and it's not a Disney movie. You sweat, the horse sweats, and sometimes you have knockdown dragouts. It's just what happens sometimes.
> 
> First, you worked him in an area that is normally where he is turned out, if I'm reading that correctly. To show that this was "work" time, I would have stuck a halter on him, along with a longeline and with a chain, and had a whip. Normally, I don't longe with a chain but knowing that this horse is a jerk, I would.
> 
> ...


I may just be being silly, but I feel like this is kind of directed at me... I agree, you can't love the manners in, but I do think that with a horse that has been treated badly all his life to the point of reacting violently like this horse, it is essential to show him caring. Maybe not love, but at least caring. I think that this kind of horse will only get more violent in response to a harder approach- the OP said that he only got worse the more she confronted him. It's not worth pushing a thousand pound animal to see how far they'll go, in this situation, to me. 
But I agree with everything you've said, and I think that what you're saying to do is very valid- I just can't agree that it's the right course with this horse, exactly.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I do not think you did things correctly.
For a starter I would _never_ loose lunge a horse that was showing signs of dominance.
I want a form of control and would have had him saddled with side reins, a lunge line and a lunge whip. As he was broken I would probably used two lines on him. 

Before that had he shown aggression towards me in the form of biting he would have had such an resounding open handed slap across the muzzle he would have though again before trying to come at me.

Although it is important to rule out any pain issues there are horse that will be dangerously dominant if given the chance. 
Had he come at me in a threatening way then he would have had that whip across his chest and front legs - if he kept coming, it would have been across his muzzle and believe me, he would have felt it for a while afterwards. 

When horses are dangerously dominant it takes a lot of experience and skill to make them think otherwise. I do not like to whip horses but in a situation like this then I will and mean it, no tickles but a hard lash as they start to come at me.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Foxhunter, I think you have a very valid point. Let me say though that in the situation we were in (a camp for people with disabilities, some of whom have a hard time distinguishing between playing, acting, and real danger), repremanding the horse with a slap was not appropriate. For instance, in one campfire play, we pretended to kidnap a staff member. One camper thought she was actually being hurt and came on stage and started attacking the other staff actors, kicking, punching, etc, no matter how much they said it was pretend. So in a situation where potentially we could be either presenting a camper with "staff is hurting my horse!" or "its okay to hit the horses," people could have gotten hurt. 

It is a tough situation, and I apologize for not presenting all of the details from the get go. 

As far as side reins, lunge line, etc, I was equipped with various saddles, halters, one hackamore, lead ropes, and about 13,000 soft brushes. So free lunging was my option. 

Thanks, everyone.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I think you were right in sending the horse back as he was unsuitable for the job in hand - horses like this are, fortunately rare.


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

He probally doesnt trust you. I dont lunge my horses EVER. you shouldnt of with out asking. You could have just struck a sore spot(Had a bad experiance) and you let him get away with it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

horseandme said:


> He probally doesnt trust you. I dont lunge my horses EVER. you shouldnt of with out asking. You could have just struck a sore spot(Had a bad experiance) and you let him get away with it.


 
If you are saying because you don't lunge your horse, EVER, that she , or anyone else, should never lunge their horses, I would question that . There is value in lunging. Done correctly. But lunging is not just making a horse run in circles. there's alot more to it than that.


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## horseandme (Jun 4, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> If you are saying because you don't lunge your horse, EVER, that she , or anyone else, should never lunge their horses, I would question that . There is value in lunging. Done correctly. But lunging is not just making a horse run in circles. there's alot more to it than that.


that is not wat I was saying. wat I am saying is that all horses have not been lunged. Not always a good thing. From wat I have seen people do not usually use it correctly.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I wasn't there, so take what I write with grain of salt.

To me, a horse that is threatening you by half rearing, and charging at you is telling you in no uncertain terms you can't make me.

Basically, you brought the fight to the horse, and then weren't enough horseman enough to finish it, in his mind. He won that round.

I agree with poster who said they would have had a HCTJM.

With horses like this, the Black Stallion movement doesn't work. Actually it doesn't work with most horses.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

Free lunging a horse is something that takes a lot of time and patience to perfect, working a horse at liberty to me is a form of artwork, where trust has been built, cues have been perfected between the horse and the person performing it. If you didn't have to tools to lunge him it probably wasn't a good idea to do it. JMO


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

My gelding is very dominant, and was very aggressive when I first got him - used to charge me when being lunged, and bail me up in the corner of the stable and strike out when I'd go in there. So I started carrying a dressage whip into the stable and smacking the ground and hissing at him until he moved out of my space. Then I'd put the food in and keep him off his food til he backed down, then let him eat. 

As for the lunging, every time he'd do that I'd step toward him and hiss, and smack the whip on the ground in front of him and he'd back off onto the outer ring again. I also switched to using a driving whip rather than a lunge whip, I found it easier to manipulate (because I'm clumsy as anything). Then at the end of the lunge (10 mins) I'd get him to stop and stand - once he was doing this, I'd go over, stroke his nose then turn around and walk to the door and he'd follow like Mary's little lamb. I'd do the same kind of stuff in the arena too. I don't know if it'll solve your problems but it sure helped me (thanks to a really nice showjumper girl in the stable I had Brock in). And all this groundwork made a huge difference to his general personality - he's easy to lead now, doesn't need tying up and is respectful but affectionate 

And don't feel silly about wearing a helmet (or body protector) in the lunge yard - it was recommended at the livery stables I was at, and a good thing too I think.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

So you took someone else's horse and tried to "train" it free lunging without the owner's permission and then ended the session when the horse was worse rather than better? There are so many wrongs here. 

You need a backbone when working with a dominant horse or even spoiled horse. They are going to push you and test you beyond what a normal horse does and they will pick up on your fear. And the hooting and hollering? They don't respect that - they respect confident body language. I never need anything more than some kissing or clucking to enforce my body language and that is just a nice way of me telling them to get it moving or I will make them. 

One of the horses I was working with the other day has been allowed to be a lazy beast and pampered and loved on. He hasn't really been made to do much and he didn't agree with me when I decided he needed a session on the lunge line that was more than a couple times around. At one point I had both heels flying at me (thankfully I was keeping him far enough out in the circle at that point that they were no where near me) and then when that didn't work he decided charging in at me was the answer. My fear spiked for a second until I remembered I was the lead mare there- not him - and flipped the lunge whip around and gave him a couple resounding smacks on his jaw with the handle while I charged forward with energy and forced him to back up. If I can touch his jaw with the handle of the whip - he is too dang close and he knows it!

I don't like using that much force - but I will use what force I feel is necessary at that moment to keep me safe and get it through their mind that I'm a force to be reckoned with. Thankfully he wasn't overly dominant, just spoiled, and he got the hint and everything from that point on was smooth sailing. A truly dominant horse would not have given up so easily. And if I had backed up and given in to him at that point? Or worse - stopped the lesson when he charged? I would have been helping create a very dangerous horse. 

If you don't understand when to apply pressure and when to release, how to communicate without making a fuss with hollering and such, and how to hold your ground with a horse then you have no business taking on someone else's horse - especially without their permission! I'd have kicked you off my property if you tried that with one of mine.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

^^ I like to use verbal cues along with my body language, such as 'easy', 'quit', etc., but that's a personal preference... I think your voice- or more specifically, your tone- can be a great aid to body language. I don't believe in raising your voice too much, though, because frankly if you have to scream at your horse it means they're not listening to you, which means you're doing something wrong. I completely agree with what Cat said, though.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

"The meaning of communication is the response we get." - Obviously I was communicating something incorrectly. Thank you for the answers, ladies and gents. Please remember, I did not ask for judgment on my moral character, my decision to work the horse, or the like. I wanted to know A) if I handled the situation "correctly" according to the general opinion, and B) what you think was going on with the horse. Thank you, again, for your detailed answers.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

Just don't let it get to you- everyone on here means well, but everyone has their own opinion and their own way of sharing it.  It's the price paid for being on the internet, lol. I'm glad I could help you, have a blessed day!


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks soenjer  have a blessed day as well +


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## QHH (Jun 16, 2012)

All's well that ends well, thankfully both you and the horse in question are still intact


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

I think its interesting but also sad that the majority of posts on this issue recommended muscling up to this horse and getting more aggressive or using more force through nose chains, whips etc. Almost no one asked if the horse might have been in pain, tired or confused about why it kept getting chased no matter what it did. 
Most people just assumed that the horse should **** well do whatever a human says irrespective of how confusing, tiring, scary or annoying that human might have been. 

Horses generally resort to aggressive behaviours when WE ingore their signs of submission or avoidance. In fact, most of us probably can't recognise them because they are very subtle and they don't involve licking and chewing. For all our going on and on about making a horse move its feet to make it respect us (huh?) horses never chase each other round and round like we do if they are in a big enough space and the less dominant horse can get out of the space of the more dominant one. They never demand that the submissive horse faces up, does haunch turns, roll backs etc. All horses want is either for the other horses to get out of their way or the space to get out of the way. Horses don't voluntarily approach either predators or more dominant horses because they get hurt if they do. 

The ability to access and keep hold of a food resource (kicking and biting other horses) has no correlation with how trainable or other a horse might be. I've had very food dominant horses who were nervous when ridden, lazy when ridden, were easy to install cues on, hard to install cues on. All a bossy horse in the field tells you is it is the most motivated to get food and the most successful at keeping it. In the wild horses almost never fight over food so the aggression we see when large numbers are kept in small spaces and only offered food at certain times of the day is the product of learning. We shouldn't be blaming horses for simply being horses or expect that they have any insight to their behaviour or moral standards. They are after all simply horses.


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## NeuroticMare (Jan 8, 2012)

I used to run the horse program at a day camp, and we leased our horses for the summer as well. They were leased from a guy who was in the business of leasing horses to camps, some were better than others (I had 32 to deal with, not 4!) and luckily I had 3 pastures at my disposal for herd disputes.

I would never, ever allow what you did to that horse to happen at my barn. For one, our program was large and the horses were ridden 2-3 times a day, when they weren't be ridden they were usually at least saddled for most of the day, 5 days a week. Not an idea scenario, but I made sure they were happy, comfortable, well-fed and did my very best with keeping them sound, saddles fitting, correct bits, bridles, etc. They do their jobs and do them well, like I said, some better than others. 

We had a few we needed to handle with "kid gloves" and being sent back usually did not fare well for these guys, although sometimes it was the only option. Some were likely abused, when I worked there (between 95-01) the majority of the horses were from Mexico, before the horse market crashed it was cheaper to go to Mexico and buy a whole herd of horses and ship them up to MN, than it was to go to auctions and buy horses. Usually by the time we got them, they were old, branded on every shoulder and hip (many owners) sometimes scared, sometimes jerks (who wouldn't be after that?) but broke to the nines.

About the kid gloves, we had one who could be classified as being dominant, whatever, he was a small red pony that could kick and bite you at the same time if he wanted to. He was ear shy and afraid of adults, they used to go at him with several people to saddle, bridle and get him out and going with a staff member, but when I started to work with him we took it slow and patient and I made sure everything was comfortable for him, it turned out he was thin-skinned and the synthetic girth irritated him and made him cinchy, so I went out to Fleet Farm and got him a fleece/felt one, and he was fine about saddling after that. He had been ear-twitched before and didn't trust people around his ears. For weeks I would unbuckle his bridle and just loop it over his head and buckle it back up, rather than pulling it over his ears, but he eventually got to the point we could do that too. He ended up being great with the kids (as long as they weren't saddling/bridling, and our younger kids didn't) and enjoyed his work there, we kept him until he passed away from old age.

Another one that stands out was a black gelding who would rear and strike at people on the ground, and rear under saddle. I kept him well away from the kids and other staff, worked with him some, but found him to just be very sore throughout his body, I would guess something like lyme, but will never know. He had a few good weeks when the weather was warm that I used him as my guide horse in my English saddle (which fit him better than the western saddles) but he never became one for the kids or one I even really trusted, we did eventually send him back, and I hope he found peace.

What I'm saying is... it's not an easy life, he probably hasn't had an easy life. Working as a camp horse is hard, if not physically, then mentally. Imagine yourself babysitting all the time, being hot and uncomfortable and speaking a different language than everyone around you. I would never work an already hard-working horse more than necessary, especially with the intent of "teaching him a lesson" what exactly, where you expecting from him?

What could you have done differently? Check your ego at the door. Appreciate him for what he is, send him back if you can't, but what you did do was damaging. You may have broken him further, and he probably was already. I had to quit working at camp because every single autumn when I had spent all summer nurturing these sweet saints of horses, my heart broke in a thousand pieces because I could not guarentee that would continue for them. I almost felt bad gaining the trust of some, only to have someone like you come along in a few months shatter it. You had an excellent learning opportunity with this horse, and you blew it.

Some of my babies: (excuse quality, picture of pictures that were taken by a disposable camera likely)
Mission Impossible "Mission" older Mexican cowpony, likely rodeo horse/pickup horse. Yes, he was loose, when there were no campers I let him hang out and graze because he was afraid of eating hay at the hitching post with his lead rope touching his neck when he moved.









Jedi, my favorite guide horse. When he came up from Mexico, people had actually carved patterns into his back and rump with a knife, and his ears had no hair on them from being singed off. He loved trail riding and working with the young kids, hated white lead ropes or white brushes.









Levi, a playful, mouthy thing he was, I would always insert a brush in his mouth for him to hold while I cleaned his feet or groomed his legs, or he'd bite my butt, he had a major butt affinity, he was more for the advanced riders as he had a lot of go but not a lot of whoa, but he was fun and responsive. He died in my arms from a stroke likely he had in the morning one day when I had just gotten there









Finally, the married couple. The sweetest mare ever on the left, Cookie, and her boyfriend, the red pony mentioned above, Shenanigans (or PD post 2000)









I remember them from spending many days of many summers with them. Some kids it's the first horse they rode, or the only horse they've ridden. Some it was the best summer of their life, or a fleeting memory. I owe them so very, very much.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

corymbia said:


> For all our going on and on about making a horse move its feet to make it respect us (huh?) horses never chase each other round and round like we do if they are in a big enough space and the less dominant horse can get out of the space of the more dominant one. They never demand that the submissive horse faces up, does haunch turns, roll backs etc. [\QUOTE]
> 
> Please feel free to come tell this to my extremely dominant haflinger gelding. Its not unusual to see him running one of his herd mates up and down the fenceline making change their direction back and forth multiple times until they are licking and chewing in submission. If they do get away from him before he is satisfied he will just go after them again until he gets them along another fence line. He does this a lot to the youngest one who is starting to think he can move up in the pecking order and is starting to try to challenge the ones above him. Then when he gets the submission he wants from them he is satisfied and they can go eat together in peace as if nothing happened.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Neuroticmare you hit my guest ranch experiences on the head! Hard working horses that get the best and worst out of life. I worked one old thoroughbred who was skinny. I made a point to feed him separate for a few weeks got him fattened up a bit. Well, by the end of a month that horse would follow me around like a puppy. I would lead ride off him and toss him into the corral he would turn around and stand at my shoulder while we went down the line getting guests off horses. A really sweet horse, soft horse that just did not fit well within a group and was on the verge of being sent back. He did not come back the next year and I don't think he would have overwintered on dry grass in Utah well. The point is, if you do something for camp/ranch horses you have to respect them. If you teach them something don't expect it to stick for more then a season. You are at best transient in their life. They run the gauntlet as far as riders, some good some bad. If the rider jerks on their mouth they are expected to not react. If the rider is loose goose with their mouth they are expected to not react. Then people get upset when they display behaviors that are either the reason they got sent to auction or defense behaviors they picked up from their many handlers. In the end you are not hired to train. At the same time, free lunging a horse can be very dangerous. If you think they are going to hurt you clearly, get out. Its not worth dying over. So, plan for that, have an escape plan. Some horses don't free lunge. I have a mare that was taught that round penning means you kick/strike out and charge the person in the center after 3 months of natural horsemanship training by a "trainer". If you lunge her she is fine, if you just get on her and ride she is fine. If you put a rope halter on her she gets ticked (pinned ears and high head). With her, I don't have a round pen, so its easier to put her in a regular halter and lunge her if I want to ground work her. Its a case of right horse, right situation. Your situation was wrong horse, wrong situation.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I really hate it when folks get all judgemental about something they haven't seen. 

Here's my answer to the original question of "Did I do right or wrong in the situation?". 

I wasn't there, didn't see his behavior pre or post and I have no experience or history with that particular horse. I have no idea what should have been done with that horse in that moment of time. 

A lot of horse training is situational and depends on the horse's level of training, your level of training, his personality (or as the Parelli folks like to say, "Horsonality"), your personality, his transgression, your ability to fix his transgression without anger, his past history with training and your past history with training. 

I'm very strict with my horses and any horse who shows signs of agression more than once gets loaded up and sent to the sale. If the horse is otherwise a nice horse and has a bad day, it's one thing. If the horse is a snot and never has a good day it's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. At 18 I was willing to deal with a whole lot more rank behaviour than I am now, at 55. Then it was all an adventure and how much could I learn, now it's no longer fun to deal with that and I'm not gonna get hurt. 

A horse with a good heart and a whole lotta try will get all the care, concern and patience I can give him. A horse that has never demonstrated any of that gets sent right down the road. I don't care what the underlying issues are, life is too short to deal with a snot and especially a snot in a camp full of disabled campers. That is a whole level of liability I don't even want to see, let alone open myself up to. 

Glad you're no longer at "Camp Runamok", sounds like it wasn't a very good situation.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Thank you, Dreamcatcher! 

To the others who responded, I appreciate your taking the time to post such detailed replies. I suppose you didn't see my post about not asking for judgment beyond the two questions I asked. When we start judging others, we stop judging ourselves, and forget how much we have to work on ourselves before we condemn others. Sometimes it is best for everyone to "check their ego at the door" before assuming someone else is/was full of pride. 

Thanks again, everyone.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Hi runslidestop. I agree that sometimes ego gets involve and I am sorry if I offended you. I just have trouble separating the question of what should I do differently or what could I do better when the answer involves the initial decision to enter the arena. Teasing the two apart can be difficult. At the same time, the internet creates a level of us all being anonymous to one another, I don't even know your real name. As a result, sometimes people say things that are easily misconstrued and can be hurtful to feelings. I did not intend to do this. Honestly if we were all standing in a room I would be the one standing in a corner talking to the curtains, because horse people can be really rude and hurtful (curtains not so much). The internet makes us all experts and we never have to back up our ideas or claims. I am sorry. If I did not answer your questions or offended you in any way. I did not mean to. Working horses are just sort of a hot button issue for me and I think I took that out here and possibly on you. Thats not my intention. In the end all we can really hope is that we are honest in our actions and intentions as our best horses are in theirs.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Rookie - thank you for your heartfelt response! I am the worst of all with jumping to conclusions and especially being prideful. Curtains are more my kinda people as well  No hard feelings! It is all a learning experience! 

Cheers,
RSS


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## NeuroticMare (Jan 8, 2012)

I sure didn't mean to offend Run, I'm sorry if I did.

And I sure do need to check my ego at the door, frequently  I have little to no self-esteem or confidence in my entire life, except for with horses. Usually the NeuroticMare (tm) is good at putting me back to normal, or as normal as I get


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

No hard feelings NM! All is well  appreciate your concern!

Cheers,
RSS


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

NeuroticMare said:


> I sure didn't mean to offend Run, I'm sorry if I did.
> 
> And I sure do need to check my ego at the door, frequently  I have little to no self-esteem or confidence in my entire life, except for with horses. Usually the NeuroticMare (tm) is good at putting me back to normal, or as normal as I get


 
I think you were a bit insulting in only one small part, and this is understandable because of all the heartache you saw with these horses. I really appreciated your explanation of how to approache and view these horses in an empathetic manner, use them so that they don't go to slaughter, and try to keep children safe at the same time. Obvioulsly, you were walking a fine tautrope and have brought back some real wisdom from the journey.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

RSS.. Maybe the horse figured he had done what you asked, and then decided you were out of line !! and enough was enough. Backing down was perhaps a safe thing for you to do physically, But it also just taught this horse that he can be aggressive to get his way. The Horse could also have an underlying medical condition.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks stevenson! It is possible. 

I agree, tiny. And NM, today is the day people head to camp to start the summer, so not going this year, despite the mess of it all, I am feeling kinda down. Nothing compares to spending your summer working at camp with horses (and folks with disabilities). It is definitely something that is emotional and teaches some life lessons. 

Cheers,
RSS


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## NeuroticMare (Jan 8, 2012)

Aw Run, I hear you. The first year I didn't go back to camp I became so depressed, in fact, I slept almost the entire summer away (it was my first summer before college and I do not adjust well to new situations as is!). But to be honest, there are enough horse crazy people out there that usually the good ones do find their way to the camps. I haven't met the lovely girls who had taken over my roll in person, except for one, but have connected to several through our camp's Facebook page.

Three summers ago my camp had a "staff from the 80s and 90s reunion" at the camp and I actually brought the NeuroticMare (tm) because I thought it would be fun to ride her on my old stompin ground, as there would be a trail ride going out in the evening. Lo and behold, two of my original guys were still there, not the ones I expected either! One was a gray gelding that had come there when I was a CAMPER, he must have been at least 40 years old by the last time I saw him! Which was his last summer. Right now, there is still one surviving from my days but it's because a staff member bought him to retire to her own pasture since he did so much. He has his own Facebook fan page 

At any rate, I hope you find something fun and horsie to do this summer anyway, and just remember you did good! You did well too, but you did good.


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi;

Please see Penelope crashes the gate video. It is old, just search for it. She is a 19 year old horse. 18 when this happened.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

I have seen it. What is the point you are trying to make, exactly?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this is precious! make it into a bumper sticker.

*"Just remember you did good! You did well too, but you did good".*


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

The point I am making is that 

1, What can happen when a horse is free lunging and in a good mood. It could be much worse if they were in a bad mood. 

2,Talk about feeling like you are being judged?

That is exactly all


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## lacey123 (Jan 19, 2012)

One thing said on this post really bothers me and that is that you should put this horse in side riens! What put a horse you dont even know can lunge in side reins, that is a disaster waiting to happen. Please people do not ever put a horse that isn't used to lunging in side riens, that is how they flip over and break there necks, or get tied up and seriously injured, it is a serious saftey issue.


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