# Mexican-style training?



## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

If the term 'Mexican -style training' is offensive or incorrect, please correct me and I apologize. I am new to the southern California area and literally a hill away from Mexico. There are several ranches around the one I board at that have spanish cowboys that ride on the wildlife preserve that I ride on. I am just wondering what the technique is they use? While I am riding and trying to keep my horse relaxed, neck stretched and low and just trying to love my calm ride....they whiz by galloping. They have tie downs on their horses, the horses heads are high in the air, mouths open, whites of the eyes showing....they look frantic to me really....and the rider just keeps pushing and pushing. Am I crazy? Is this a technique for breaking horses or just bad riding?


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

That's bad horsemanship all together... Not a technique but a primitive, uneducated way of breaking horses. I train horses in the old California Vaquero way mixed with a little bit of the Great Basin Buckaroo methods and people like that infuriate me. They give my wy of training a very very bad name. It isn't a method just poor riding and poor horsemanship by uneducated people stuck in their primitive ways..


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Well, im equally crazy, if you're crazy lol. I see them parading their horses up and down the road. Usually very flashy horses, palominos or greys preferred. 
Im convinced that there is a culture of training these horses, unfortunately I have only seen people who must have forgotten or never exactly knew how to do it.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

It's nothing to do with Mexican's or any other ethnicity. I great many races of people use short cuts to tie down the horses head without training. It's just poor horsemanship.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Brown Horse is a mexican mustang. He used to be a dancer in the parades, wearing heavy outfits and stuff, I think. But the style they used seemed really harsh, as brown horse has white spots in different places on his body. His nose, his withers, and girth area. I speculate a chain was used for his nose, and an ill fitting saddle/ girth. 

I can't say I know of any other experiences that are positive, as everything I have heard has been negative.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I asked a woman that I went out on a trail ride with the other day while we were riding and I was trying to keep my horse 'sane' as they yehawed by. She said that that is their method of training and they even get their horses hyped up before they ride them. I'm not sure I understand this. It seems to be very common down here. I don't understand the tie down thing either if the horses' heads are sky high and they are all high strung and seem to be just plainly...freaking out the horses.:shock:


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## jinx1990 (Nov 17, 2012)

If done incorrectly, any riding style can be cruel and harsh. I have a really good friend who uses this method correctly and his horses are a dream. I had to learn a few words in Spanish to work with them, but I love his horses. He is never mean with horses and his horses will do anything for him. He's taking my mare for training soon and I can't wait to start working with her. It isn't mean and harsh when done correctly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

jinx1990 said:


> If done incorrectly, any riding style can be cruel and harsh. I have a really good friend who uses this method correctly and his horses are a dream. I had to learn a few words in Spanish to work with them, but I love his horses. He is never mean with horses and his horses will do anything for him. He's taking my mare for training soon and I can't wait to start working with her. It isn't mean and harsh when done correctly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How/what is the horse taught by riding them like that? Just hauling a** while they are all freaked out? I'm just asking because I would like to understand this better....it doesn't seem logical to me. I also thought you shouldn't ride with their heads to the sky and mouths gaping open because it hollows out their backs????


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## jinx1990 (Nov 17, 2012)

^^^That's what I mean by incorrectly. His horses are always head low and relaxed and not spooky. If done correctly and in the right riders hands these horses are amazingly well trained.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

The people around here are not mean in sense of beating their horses into submission or such. Some actually love their horses, and all are mighty proud of them. I just don't see no training. I see horses tied high, no chance to relax the neck, head never lower or as low as the withers, a sisal( I think, some kind if rope) very tight noseband is used to tie them out, reins attached and tied behind the horn, to create the headset. No way to get away from pressure. Next is a bit, long shanks, again horse tied out in the same manner, shanks are horizontal. For hours, under the sun, no relief at all, while the men party. Then they ride. Same head position, any saddle, fitting or not, as long as it's flashy. 
Luckily I never whitnessed the " dancing" training......
This is what I see here. 
Like I said above, there must be a proper way. I just never see it.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Now that I think of it, when I drive to see my horses past some of these other ranches....I see horses standing tied to a pole by themselves....not like a 'patience pole'...but their heads are right against the pole. I thought they had a halter on, but not sure.

The saddle they (there was like 15 of these guys riding together) use is a mexican saddle? It looked like a saddle tree and horn without leather...it was white.

I read about an old-time way of breaking horses that basically sucked the spirit out of the horse....is this what they were talking about?....because I can't see how this trains horses? Do the horses just eventually get tired and give up?


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## jinx1990 (Nov 17, 2012)

There is a thread on here about the correct to train a horse with this riding style. Its really good you should check it out  The horses I've been around that are trained with the Vaquero style have not had their sport broken. I've watched these horses go from birth to being gentled in saddle and gone through the two-rein to the horse you can steer with a finger. I've never seen him do the things you have seen. Which I believe you, but I know it's not the 'real' vaquero riding style.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

jinx1990 said:


> There is a thread on here about the correct to train a horse with this riding style. Its really good you should check it out  The horses I've been around that are trained with the Vaquero style have not had their sport broken. I've watched these horses go from birth to being gentled in saddle and gone through the two-rein to the horse you can steer with a finger. I've never seen him do the things you have seen. Which I believe you, but I know it's not the 'real' vaquero riding style.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, what I'm witnessing is some cowboys with horrible training techniques I guess. But it's everywhere....geez.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There are some threads on charro riding. Sounds like what you are describing. It can be done well, but sometimes is not.


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## Ashleysmardigrasgirl (Jun 28, 2012)

Good horse trainers are like finding a needle in a hay stack... Stands to reason, there's a lot of people out there who could use some guidance yet for whatever reason dont seek it; I know I for one, have met more than a few people who didn't know peanuts about what they were doing... Not saying I'm pro or anything, just an observation.


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## jinx1990 (Nov 17, 2012)

Next time I visit him I'll see if I can video and pics of his horses and him riding so you can see what it should be like 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

jinx1990 said:


> There is a thread on here about the correct to train a horse with this riding style. Its really good you should check it out  The horses I've been around that are trained with the Vaquero style have not had their sport broken. I've watched these horses go from birth to being gentled in saddle and gone through the two-rein to the horse you can steer with a finger. I've never seen him do the things you have seen. Which I believe you, but I know it's not the 'real' vaquero riding style.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What OHL is describing has nothing to do with vaquero/ buckaroo/ bridle horse training. Absolutely nothing. 
What she sees, and I, for that matter, is charro riding in it's worst form. 
Im pretty sure that there is a better way to achieve a perfect charro horse, it was apparently lost somewhere between Mexico and here.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

There is some of this going on over in the "Dumbest Horse for Sale ads" thread:

Selling my 3.5 year old colt


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I've seen that ad, meant to post it but couldn't find it on CL....thanks


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I will have to try and take a picture or video next time I'm out trail riding and see them. If I am on my horse...it may not be possible though since my horses start getting nervous acting like, "WTH!!"


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Im pretty sure that there is a better way to achieve a perfect charro horse, it was apparently lost somewhere between Mexico and here.



There's a lot of racism I am seeing in this conversation that makes me massively uncomfortable. Not just this comment. 


So you see bad horsemanship with darker skin and it's a Mexican thing, but when you see it with white skin, then it's just bad horsemanship, because heck we are white. 

Really people, really?


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Maybe the strap I see is not a tie down....it comes up from the breast collar or something...but they are riding the horses with their noses to the sky, not arched to their chests...unless this is the beginning of the 'training'. There is nothing relaxed about it. The horses don't even walk...they trot or gait (they had some paso finos in the mix). The horses were very high strung, their mouths wide open and heads waaaaay up.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

AlexS said:


> There's a lot of racism I am seeing in this conversation that makes me massively uncomfortable. Not just this comment.
> 
> 
> So you see bad horsemanship with darker skin and it's a Mexican thing, but when you see it with white skin, then it's just bad horsemanship, because heck we are white.
> ...


If it's a certain cultural way of training, it's a cultural way of training....

I'm just trying to understand it.

Living next to the border, there is obviously a lot of the Mexican culture here....it is what it is. Who is to say I'm not Mexican? It is just that I see a lot of people, who speak Spanish and have Spanish saddles riding in this style.....so, I'm thinking it is a Mexican cultural type of training?....idk....that is why I am asking in the first place. I am trying to understand why and how this teaches horses. Especially since I am trying to teach my horses the exact opposite while I am out trail riding.

Let's not make this more complicated than it is.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

AlexS said:


> There's a lot of racism I am seeing in this conversation that makes me massively uncomfortable. Not just this comment.
> 
> 
> So you see bad horsemanship with darker skin and it's a Mexican thing, but when you see it with white skin, then it's just bad horsemanship, because heck we are white.
> ...


Alex, this has absolutely nothing to do with racism. You're more than welcome to come here and see for yourself.
I really don't care where they're from, white, dark, yellow or green. Bad horsemanship is just that...bad horsemanship.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Alex, this has absolutely nothing to do with racism. You're more than welcome to come here and see for yourself.
> I really don't care where they're from, white, dark, yellow or green. Bad horsemanship is just that...bad horsemanship.



Then your comment about horsemanship being left between here and Mexico was posted by alien fingers? 







Oldhorselady, I wasn't really talking to you. You posted the initial question in a wording that wasn't racist to me.


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## oobiedoo (Apr 28, 2012)

I've seen the ******* drunken cowboys here in NC riding that way.Didn't pay much attention to their saddles, too busy trying to stay out of their way so my horse and myself wouldn't get hurt.It's not limited to California or Mexicans. Theres yahoos all over and when they're drunk it's worse.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I, too, am uncomfortable by the repeated assumption that this display of bad horsemanship is somehow linked to nationality.

What I pictured from the description of the riding in the original post was the cpmpetitive team and calf ropers from towns around here. I certainly don't lump all horse owners and riders from town into a special group of poor horseman.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

boots said:


> I, too, am uncomfortable by the repeated assumption that this display of bad horsemanship is somehow linked to nationality.
> 
> What I pictured from the description of the riding in the original post was the cpmpetitive team and calf ropers from towns around here. I certainly don't lump all horse owners and riders from town into a special group of poor horseman.


The ONLY reason I put in the mexican word is because I was thinking that perhaps this type of riding/training could be a cultural thing...not to point fingers at a 'wrong' type of riding...just trying to understand 'why'. And the people I see doing this...happen to be that nationality. It is not just one guy or one group...it is all over. It is new to me, I've never seen it before and I am just trying to figure it all out.

So, if anyone goes to Poland, where my family is from....and you see multiple people with a ladder changing a lightbulb, it is not only the polish culture that does it that way.....lol..joke....oh boy.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Oldhorselady said:


> The ONLY reason I put in the mexican word is because I was thinking that perhaps this type of riding/training could be a cultural thing...not to point fingers at a 'wrong' type of riding...just trying to understand 'why'. And the people I see doing this...happen to be that nationality. It is not just one guy or one group...it is all over. It is new to me, I've never seen it before and I am just trying to figure it all out.
> 
> So, if anyone goes to Poland, where my family is from....and you see multiple people with a ladder changing a lightbulb, it is not only the polish culture that does it that way.....lol..joke....oh boy.


And you are correct with this particular form being a cultural thing. There are many bad horseman out there. And there are many good horseman out there. But this particular method of training a horse, tying its head up for hours, doing over correction to make a horse dance, this is a very cultural thing brought up here from old Mexico and hasnt changed much because culture has preserved it. Hell, if a white guy was raised in old mexico, he would do the same thing. This isn't a matter of race, but more of area and culture. Like in my area, you ever so rarely see someone riding English. Hell, I've never ridden an English saddle. We were raised where the generations before us all made bridle horses. And so that is what we do. There are people in my area that train horses this way. And if you ask them why. "oh my father taught me and he was great". It's a culture preserved. And if you tell them they are wrong, you better have time for an argument.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Okay, I'll try to clarify what I meant....since English is not my language....
Here in central Cali, and even more so southern Cali the population is made up of nearly 60% Mexican natives. So of course we see the ones who have horses, riding all the time. And what Oldhorselady and I described, is in fact, how it is. If I remember right I was the one saying that they are not mean, as was mentioned by another poster, that they love their horses and are, all of them, proud of their horses.
I further said that there is, no doubt, a right and proper way of training and riding charro style. 

Its what we see on daily bases, what is, to me anyway, sometimes disturbing. 
I've noticed also, that they are, in general, open to better their horsemanship, in fact the people we got our horses from were more than happy to listen and to change their ways. 

I also noticed that they copy what they see their neighbor is doing. I guess that's where tradition got lost. It's mainly young guys riding this way. I haven't seen older folks ride, so I don't know if they have more knowledge. 
Fact is, the culture is different, I've been to Spain, I've lived in Italy, they think very differently about how to treat animals in general. 
Look at Spanish horsemanship.....really well trained horses, super pretty to watch, very good riders, but part of basic training is using a serreta, an iron noseband with sharp teeth. It's part of their tradition, nobody thinks twice about using it. It produces results, no doubt. And if used with skill, it might not even hurt the horse. But used by somebody without the skill, just copying what others do, it does hurt the horse.

This is what I mean, and again, no matter what race or color, bad horsemanship is bad horsemanship.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I have a close friend who's family were missionaries in Mexico and she grew up there till age 14. What your describing is pretty much the same things that she has told me about. So I'm thinking its a cultural thing. And I'm hoping no one takes that as me being racist just what my friend has observed and what I've been told 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> And you are correct with this particular form being a cultural thing...
> ...It's a culture preserved. And if you tell them they are wrong, you better have time for an argument.


I'm not buying it. Some Mexicans have been training good bridle horses, and doing it well, for longer than there has been a U.S.A., so I'm surprised you believe what you post.

And, hey, I'll check with the townie ropers around here and see if they were all raised in Mexico, because, what was described is exactly how these wasichu ride.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

boots said:


> I'm not buying it. Some Mexicans have been training good bridle horses, and doing it well, for longer than there has been a U.S.A., so I'm surprised you believe what you post.
> 
> And, hey, I'll check with the townie ropers around here and see if they were all raised in Mexico, because, what was described is exactly how these wasichu ride.


Don't buy it, that's fine. And some do train good bridle horses, but that is influenced by the old Californio, a mix of old Mexican style training and influenced by American cowboys. I'm not saying because your Mexican you train this way. But it is a cultural style of horse training. It comes deep from Old Mexico. I've done countless hours of research on different old methods, talked to many people and worked under some great Californio horseman. Yes, you see team Ropers with dreadfully iron hands, but they don't tie their horses heads up in the sun for hours and then lope them with a heavy hand to achieve a reaching like prance. Look it up on YouTube and see if you see team Ropers doing that. Disagree with me if you want, but it is a cultural thing. There are many people in my area that train horses this way, and I have firsthandedly asked them if that is what they do in Mexico. They said yes and were very proud of their horses...


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Have a look for yourself.. All I see here is culture. This is a finished horse from these methods..


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I hope to get some pictures or videos....maybe that will help. Maybe my perception is off. But, like I said, what I did notice was the opposite of what I thought I was trying to train my horses. I would like to have my horses calm and relaxed while I ride...that is my goal. Their horses were wild, heads held high in the air with their mouths open and whites of their eyes showing, like they were distressed...trotting or cantering away. I tried to keep my horses walking. Maybe this is their prelude to the 'real' training where they get all the sh*** and giggles out of the horses under saddle? Idk.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

Wanstrom Horses said:


> Have a look for yourself.. All I see here is culture. This is a finished horse from these methods..
> 
> CABALLO ***** TOPADOR - YouTube


This is NOT what I was watching. But, with this being the 'finished' product...maybe, like I said....this was their method of actually breaking the horses prior to the finished type of training?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWMG1Yq8QKY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This is where it all comes from, brought to America from Spain.
It's called " doma vaquera".
Then, in different areas of America it developed into what can be seen today. Just a little different, depending on where folks had to work cattle and what materials they had to work with to make tack.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

Basically what you are seeing is an uneducated back yard form of this training. But as you can see, this is purely a cultural thing. And the methods are basically the same either way. What you see in these videos is professional in this culture..


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

In the western USA the vaquero or buckaroo evolved, Texas, over time, created it's own style, so did Mexico and other Latin American countries. 
The mentality of the south American and southern European men is different. Macho, yes, show off, yes, flashy horse, with flashy way of moving, lots of silver, very upright and proud.
I have no doubt there are real horsemen in Mexico. And also here. What I think happened, just like I said, and like Wanstrom said, the majority of horseowners with Mexican descend does what they've seen others do and how they were told by whoever had a horse before them. 

Just like it happens all over the world, people see somebody using a bit, a saddle, a martingale, drawreins, whatever, and just copy, without knowing how to use it and how to do it correctly.


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## hberrie (Apr 28, 2012)

How can anybody call this way of training racist when it is obviously culture based? Not many people in the USA have dancing horses that dance in time to Mexican music? If they do it is because they learned it from a Mexican/latino culture. You have to call a spade a spade or what else would you call it?


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

hberrie said:


> How can anybody call this way of training racist when it is obviously culture based? Not many people in the USA have dancing horses that dance in time to Mexican music? If they do it is because they learned it from a Mexican/latino culture. You have to call a spade a spade or what else would you call it?


Yes! It isn't racist in the least to point out culture. I don't find celebrating the fourth of July racist towards whites. It is just purely a cultural based thing just like this training method.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm thinking that what I've witnessed is just backyard bad training/riding. Here is a video...towards the end of the video you can see when they ride off, how the guy on the left...his horse seems not relaxed at all. This is what I noticed with these guys the whole ride to the beach...which is about a little over a mile. It looked like they were pushing them foward, but pulling back on the reins making the horses toss their heads up high and mouths open...idk...maybe I don't know what I'm looking at. These cowboys are probably just showing horrible horsemanship. I just couldn't believe how that seems to be normal with so many peopel all doing the same thing.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

This thread was not start about the dancing trick. 



> And some do train good bridle horses, but that is influenced by the old Californio, a mix of old Mexican style training and influenced by American cowboys.


And who taught whom? 

I'm done here.  There is no making racists see that they are racist. They assume their world view is correct.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

boots said:


> ...I'm done here. There is no making racists see that they are racist. They assume their world view is correct.


There is also no help for those who assume others are racists. If I'm to believe the media, I can't say Chicago has a lot of crime without being racist, since 'everyone knows lots of blacks live in Chicago'.

My wife was born in the Philippines, as were the two kids we adopted while I lived there. I choose to live 60 miles from Mexico, and about half of my neighbors had parents or grandparents born in Mexico. And if someone told me they rode "charro style", I'd think badly of them. I might be wrong, but my assumption would not be positive. Why? Because of this long and eventually locked thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/western-r...rior-american-cowboy-127979/?highlight=charro

That, and the only books I've seen on Amazon about charro riding had covers that underwhelmed me:








​ 







​ 
It isn't racist for me to think I don't want to ride Mia the way those book covers show...


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

I live in coastal Texas being just hours from the Mexico border. It is about 80% mexican population here. Therefore, the majority of people I see riding around here are mexican. They ride in the "charro" style with mexican saddles, every kind of mechanical device on their horse's head, and are dealing with a prancing skittish mess. I'm not saying that all mexicans ride this way. I know a couple that ride with nice soft hands and a nice relaxed horse. But the charro style is what is most "popular" around here. I know white people that ride an old western style. Some have very well trained horses. Some are very heavy handed and their seat is a mess. The people I board with, who are white, ride their mare with mouth agape, head straight up in the air, and are pulling on the bit constantly. With them, though, it's more of a lack of training. From my experience, with the mexican culture literally all around me, it does come from that culture. But I have limited experience and haven't really paid attention too much.


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## Wanstrom Horses (Dec 23, 2012)

boots said:


> This thread was not start about the dancing trick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People who single other races out and accuse other people of being racist seem more racist in my opinion. Like that cover posted bsms, it states "Mexicana Tradition", basically this is a Mexican tradition of training horses, and they are proud of it. Your assumptions are inccorrect. Like I stated earlier, pointing out culture is not racist.. It is just stating an obvious. Like Cinco De Mayo is a Spanish and Mexican holiday. It isn't racist, it's simply culture. We don't celebrate cinco de mayo as a national holiday here, but they don't celebrate fourth of July there. Racist?? No! Cultural?? Yes! It's the same with this training form. If we were all raised in their area, our views and opinions on horse training would be very different.
And the dancing trick is a finished product of this style of riding. I've seem it done time and time again. And they taught each other. A form or training was made through mixing different methods of two training programs to make the modern vaquero method. What you are seeing here is the old form coming straight from old Mexico. Disagree if you want, I know people's opinions are hard to change.


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