# Harley's loose stool - again...



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Where do you buy your hay from?
Have you ever had it tested nutritionally?


If it seems to happen when he's on hay as a primary diet, that would be my first thing to investigate.


Side note -- alfalfa does seem to be a better buffer for upset tummies .... like runny stools. Have you ever tried an alfalfa mix type hay?


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

My 22 year old gets like this when it gets colder and the grass disappears. I put him on Neighlox when I first notice it and it clears him right up every time.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

From what I read elsewhere, it doesn't seem to be that unusual for this to happen once a horse starts eating more hay and less grass.

Ditto have you bad the hay tested? Hind sight being what it is, it would h e been good to have the hay tested every season and compare the mineral contents.

There are always new products coming in the market for various horse health issues. You might try googling again and see what's out there that evens out the digestive tract.

Anything I suggested in the past isn't available in Canada and costs a bloody fortune to ship it over the border.

Oh wait a minute - Google the herb "marshmallow root". You have to buy it in pure form (no additives) and buy it from an herbal company. It's not that expensive.

I bought some for Joker but never used it because it coats the stomach. He just went on Prascend for cushings last November. I am afraid the Prascend might not do its job. It's human grade so I could use it if I needed it.

It may be something that would help. If not, maybe study other herbs to see if there is something out there.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

beau159 said:


> Where do you buy your hay from?
> Have you ever had it tested nutritionally?
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I had hay tested from 3 different suppliers over the years. Nothing unusual. Decent hay. 

Have tried alfalfa mix hay. No change.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Phantomcolt18 said:


> My 22 year old gets like this when it gets colder and the grass disappears. I put him on Neighlox when I first notice it and it clears him right up every time.


I don't mean to discount your suggestion, but Neighlox is an ulcer treatment and he's been on various different kinds of ulcer treatments, as well as ulcer prevention products. None have made a difference, so we don't believe the problem is ulcers.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> From what I read elsewhere, it doesn't seem to be that unusual for this to happen once a horse starts eating more hay and less grass.
> 
> Ditto have you bad the hay tested? Hind sight being what it is, it would h e been good to have the hay tested every season and compare the mineral contents.
> 
> ...


Marshmallow root is on the list I posted above of things I've already tried. It may have helped a little, but I was feeding it along with slippery elm bark which I believe does help. Neither solves the problem, but the slippery elm bark by itself does help. I ran out and it is worse than ever. Waiting for another shipment. However, even on the slippery elm bark, he's not cured, just... a little less runny. Still not normal. 

And yes, I am in Canada, so some things that will be suggested may not be available here at all.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Also, to be clear, he got hay all summer long. Same hay as he's getting now. EXACT same. He was fine as long as he had grass. When the grass is gone, the runs begin. 

I have tested hay several times from different suppliers and it all comes out about the same nutritionally. Have not had my pasture analyzed. Now THAT would be a useful piece of information!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

If you wanted to get something that was only available in the US and have it shipped to me, I could ship it to you. You can PM me if you want.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

ACinATX said:


> If you wanted to get something that was only available in the US and have it shipped to me, I could ship it to you. You can PM me if you want.


Thanks, I really appreciate it. I don't mind folks suggesting things to me - if I can't get it here, I may still be able to replicate the formula or find something similar. It's sweet of you to offer, but this situation is ongoing so it's likely I'm going to have to find a solution I can use every winter.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

1. If you haven't already read it, Here's a credible link, updated in 2018, that will at least suggest the why of Harley's runny bum. 

https://www.horsejournals.com/winter-diarrhea-horses

2. I have read that some type of Sand Clear, cleared up winter diarrhea in a horse.

3. I have also read to google "winter diarrhea and metronidazole". Metronidazole is an antibiotic.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Oddly enough, my Dreamer was the opposite; when he was on strictly hay and senior feed, the diarrhea slowed down. Once the grass started coming in, the runnies returned. 

So it does make me wonder if it was a type of grass...I fed mixed grass hay, just basic high fiber stuff with low nutritional value. 

As I mentioned in another thread, the daily dewormer is the only thing that worked. 


Dreamer had diarrhea from age 21 to age 28 (when he was put down)


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

With the AminoTrace supplement you're giving, if you are giving two scoops a day or 200 grams, your horse should be getting 1,250 IU of Vitamin E daily. That is at the minimum daily level for a horse, assuming all of it is eaten and absorbed. Many horses seem to need more vitamin E than this, especially if they are athletic.

In my mind, there could possibly be a connection between the diarrhea and Vitamin E because that is one vitamin known to quickly degrade out of hay, and only available to horses in fresh green grass. You have related the loss of green grass to Harley's diarrhea. 

Here is a quote from online about humans and Vitamin E:


> Symptoms of a vitamin E deficiency include greasy stools, chronic diarrhea, and an inability to secrete bile. Traditionally upheld is the belief that vitamin E deficiency is rare in humans. People who cannot absorb dietary fat or who have rare disorders of fat metabolism cannot absorb vitamin E. In addition, premature or very low birth weight infants (less than 3.5 lbs) and individuals with rare genetic abnormalities in the alpha-tocopherol transfer protein may also be at risk for a vitamin E deficiency. However, a 2015 study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition suggests that vitamin E deficiency might be more common than we thought. Those with metabolic syndrome, approximately one of three people in the United States, could be chronically deficient in vitamin E. Its findings suggest that while vitamin E appears to be readily available in the bloodstream of those with metabolic syndrome, it’s not finding its way to the tissues where it’s needed, resulting in a hidden deficiency.


https://www.drweil.com/vitamins-supplements-herbs/vitamins/facts-about-vitamin-e/

Horses are also known to have "hidden" Vitamin E deficiencies, where their muscles do not utilize Vitamin E well so they can appear to have healthy blood levels while still being functionally deficient.

It might be worth a try to add an additional 3,000 IU to Harley's diet of natural Vitamin E (artificial is not absorbed as well: natural is called d-alpha vs. dl-alpha). Your supplement does have natural vitamin E, so that is a good start. You should see results if this were the issue probably within a week or two.

Smartpak has Vitamin E pellets, and there are other products available from Uckele, Kentucky Equine Research, MVP, Animed, or you can feed human capsules to horses, many will eat them whole.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> 1. If you haven't already read it, Here's a credible link, updated in 2018, that will at least suggest the why of Harley's runny bum.
> 
> https://www.horsejournals.com/winter-diarrhea-horses
> 
> ...


Thanks! Yes, metronidazole was mentioned by the equine vet. I think we should try it.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> With the AminoTrace supplement you're giving, if you are giving two scoops a day or 200 grams, your horse should be getting 1,250 IU of Vitamin E daily. That is at the minimum daily level for a horse, assuming all of it is eaten and absorbed. Many horses seem to need more vitamin E than this, especially if they are athletic.
> 
> In my mind, there could possibly be a connection between the diarrhea and Vitamin E because that is one vitamin known to quickly degrade out of hay, and only available to horses in fresh green grass. You have related the loss of green grass to Harley's diarrhea.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I hadn't heard this! Will add it to my list of things to try! I can't get Smartpak in Canada, but Vit. E is fairly easy to find.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks! I hadn't heard this! Will add it to my list of things to try! I can't get Smartpak in Canada, but Vit. E is fairly easy to find.


1. Unless you’re low in selenium, be sure you buy pure Vitamin E as many horse products have selenium added. 

1. The things we learn when we aren’t looking, lol

I really appreciate @gottatrot’s comments. That is some great information

3. I have had Rusty on an extra 3000 IU of Vitamin E for 3-4 years due to his environmental allergies, which it has helped.

I put IR (now also Cushings) Joker on 3000 IU of Vitamin E two years ago to help boost his immune system.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Our soil is completely selenium deficient here @walk, but his supplements come with selenium so yes, I always carefully read everything I give to my horses. 

I just started him on this (I got a two-week free sample from the company): https://www.bioequine.com/natural-horse-supplement.html

Unfortunately, it has selenium and iron (the iron doesn't show up on the website, but in the instructions sent with the free sample, iron is in there...) so this means I have to stop giving him his Mad Barn supplement while he is on it or I will be double-dosing iron and selenium. But Mad Barn is really good about custom mixes so if by chance the Bioequine works, I can have them modify the Mad Barn supplement to leave out the iron and selenium. 

We do have really high iron in our water so I've brought up iron toxicity with the vet. He's doing some research before he makes a decision about what are the next steps. But if it was iron toxicity, why would it only show up in the winter?

Something else I will try, perhaps when I am home for a few days because it's labour intensive, is steaming his hay. I did that when he had respiratory issues and he didn't have loose stool then. So worth a try... maybe there's something about the texture of the hay that is preventing absorption. Grass has much higher water content. 

Will let you know if I find something that works. I appreciate you all being patient because I realize I ask this question every winter. And most years, I find something that works, at least for a while. Ideally we would have found the cause by now, rather than treating symptoms, but I have thrown every vet I can at this problem, and no one seems to know why it is happening. He is otherwise healthy.


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## avjudge (Feb 1, 2011)

walkinthewalk said:


> . . . 2. I have read that some type of Sand Clear, cleared up winter diarrhea in a horse.


That would make sense, because Sand Clear is basically psyllium, which while it's most known as a laxative in humans also can firm up some diarrhea. It's extremely mucilaginous and can have . . . interesting . . . effects on stool consistency in humans, at least.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

avjudge said:


> That would make sense, because Sand Clear is basically psyllium, which while it's most known as a laxative in humans also can firm up some diarrhea. It's extremely mucilaginous and can have . . . interesting . . . effects on stool consistency in humans, at least.



Indeed, it does make sense, which is why I did try psyllium to no avail.


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## avjudge (Feb 1, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Indeed, it does make sense, which is why I did try psyllium to no avail.


I wondered, but didn't see it in your list. How frustrating.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If countless vets haven't found a problem, then don't worry about it, he is fine, it's something normal for his bowels at a particular time. You like to micromanage, lol. I would add vitamin A to prevent scratches, works for prevention of rainrot too.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I've put a bit of thought into this and have come up with two possibilities, well three but I was unsure of what you did with your hay when he had respiratory issues. I was thinking I remember steaming or soaking. I would think he likely has an extra sensitive GI. Not news to you but basis for this reply so adding it. With that in mind he is likely extra sensitive to sugars that wind up in the hind gut, extra sensitive to fibers that are easily or rapidly digestible or extra sensitive to mold counts/types that are inherent on the type of hay you feed. It could be any combination of the above as well. Steaming and soaking does three things - lowers sugars (and other nutritional factors as well so supps would be advised), raises ADF and removes mold. Steaming kills and soaking washes away a percentage of the spores from molds. So that says to me lowest mold content possible on hays, lower WSC that n what you are feeding and higher ADF than what you are feeding or steam/soak the hay.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

Which probiotics did you try? I had great success with the Succeed 60 month plan, money back guarantee. I used it when my gelding (21 years old) consistently struggled to gain the last bit of weight he needed over the past 5 years. The Succeed program reset his belly, and we haven't had weight problems since.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

avjudge said:


> I wondered, but didn't see it in your list. How frustrating.


Good instincts. And yes, very frustrating.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

waresbear said:


> If countless vets haven't found a problem, then don't worry about it, he is fine, it's something normal for his bowels at a particular time. You like to micromanage, lol. I would add vitamin A to prevent scratches, works for prevention of rainrot too.


The Amino Trace + already contains 22 500 IU of Vitamin A. 

I agree, I do micromanage. No argument there. But honestly, if you saw him right now, you'd want to consult a vet too. He literally has liquid poop frozen as poopsicles on his tail and butt. It's -20C so I can't wash him tonight. This is the worst he's ever been. Every winter, I feel like I've found something that helps in the sense that I see small improvement. But then when it comes back the following fall, and I try the same thing again, no improvement. It's getting worse.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> I've put a bit of thought into this and have come up with two possibilities, well three but I was unsure of what you did with your hay when he had respiratory issues. I was thinking I remember steaming or soaking. I would think he likely has an extra sensitive GI. Not news to you but basis for this reply so adding it. With that in mind he is likely extra sensitive to sugars that wind up in the hind gut, extra sensitive to fibers that are easily or rapidly digestible or extra sensitive to mold counts/types that are inherent on the type of hay you feed. It could be any combination of the above as well. Steaming and soaking does three things - lowers sugars (and other nutritional factors as well so supps would be advised), raises ADF and removes mold. Steaming kills and soaking washes away a percentage of the spores from molds. So that says to me lowest mold content possible on hays, lower WSC that n what you are feeding and higher ADF than what you are feeding or steam/soak the hay.


Interesting. I appreciate you thinking this through. I haven't tried steaming again recently. Just got home from an Equine expo in which I was an exhibitor. He is fed 5 times a day, so I need to be home for a couple of days to try steaming. Worth a shot I think. And yes, steaming really helps with mold if there is any in the hay. I'm very careful about that, but he may be so sensitive that the tiniest imperfection bothers him. Will let you know if steaming helps. 

As for types of hay, it is so scarce here, that you are lucky if you can buy hay that isn't full of weeds. So while I have tried hay from about 5 different suppliers over the last few years, including different cuts, there was never any change. I do get my hay analyzed, but it's not like I have a lot of other options in terms of hay regardless of the results of the analysis. 

Does steaming lower sugar in hay? I thought only soaking did that.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

ClearDonkey said:


> Which probiotics did you try? I had great success with the Succeed 60 month plan, money back guarantee. I used it when my gelding (21 years old) consistently struggled to gain the last bit of weight he needed over the past 5 years. The Succeed program reset his belly, and we haven't had weight problems since.


I haven't done Succeed. I've done a number of others (Omega Alpha, Mad Barn, even human grade pre and probiotics) to no avail, but Succeed is worth adding to my list of things to try! Thanks!

Edit: So I had a look, and I can get Succeed in Canada (though I don't see anything about a money back guarantee). Can you tell me which product you used? There are few listed on the website.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I keep rereading what you wrote...and thinking about a weird possibility.


I know you are very diet conscious and so careful about what is fed and why...
You leased Harley for a bit before buying him I think and he was not home the entire time while your barn was being built if memory is accurate...
When Harley was boarded did this happen?


The one item you have not removed to see what would happen is _beetpulp_.
I have to wonder if Harley could be having a reaction to the beetpulp or the processing of it...
Could it be that??? :think:.... :shrug:
_Could he be allergic to beetpulp??:eek_color:_

You keep saying it returns every year as the rest of the diet changes, that is a constant that maybe the grass gone now can't offset the effects..








It is getting worse every year which continued fed would also make happen, more and more sensitivity. :|
A possibility...

:runninghorse2:...


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

horselovinguy said:


> I keep rereading what you wrote...and thinking about a weird possibility.
> 
> 
> I know you are very diet conscious and so careful about what is fed and why...
> ...


I only added the beet pulp this past summer (or maybe late last winter). He didn't have it for the first couple of years we had him home. You're right, he was boarded the first winter (October 2015 to June 2016) and he did not have loose stool then. However, he had severe respiratory issues that we had to treat fairly aggressively because of a dusty indoor arena (at least that's what the vet thought). Maybe something in those treatments messed up his gut? Destroyed his good bacteria? Loose stool started in the winter of 2016-2017. Has happened every winter since. 

But I can take out the beet pulp for a couple of weeks just to see if it makes a difference. Still, it makes no sense because it is a fairly new addition to his diet. But of course, his loose stool is worse than ever so... maybe it's not the cause, but it's making it worse? 

Thanks, just working through these questions helps me to think of things I can try. I've gotten to the point where I really want to find a solution, but I hesitate to talk to people about it. I was an exhibitor at an equine expo today (just representing my equestrian association) and when I happened to bring it up, had about 5 vendors tell me that THEIR product would fix him! Everyone has the miracle cure. Getting a little tired of spending my money on things that don't work. So yeah, taking things out of the diet is a little easier at this point.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Steaming lowers ADF more than sugar. Soaking lowers sugar more than ADF. One kills mold but doesn't remove it. The other removes the spores. So to me that says if you were steaming then sugars are already low enough that that is not likely the highest contributing factor if at all and that mold spores themselves are not the issue (hindgut wise) but low ADF and perhaps mycotoxins (from mold) that even at the lowest levels for him causes inflammation in the bowel. Steaming or steeping (which I would say is high temp soak) detoxifies mycotoxins so that would be another consideration. I say low ADF because what a normal horse has no reaction to (30 - 35%) he may not be able to tolerate.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Because I know I tend to be overprotective and OCD about my horses, I thought I'd share a photo with you so you can tell me if I'm over-reacting. This is Harley's bum. Most of this is fresh since yesterday. It's -17C with a windchill of -21C going down to -25 in the night. Washing him properly ends in a soaked hind end and back legs, so it's out of the question tonight. It would all freeze up within minutes. I worked out some of the worse poopsicles, but the rest will have to wait unfortunately. This can't be good for him. I wash him every few days as soon as the weather warms above -10C.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

That is bad! So you know it's obviously the hay, I would try just giving him alfalfa cubes with no hay. if you want to stretch it out a little more soak it overnight, it gives it more volume. Does he get diaper rash?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

What about adding an alfalfa/grass cube that you soak? Or is there a grass/alfalfa hay with more mature - higher ADF that you could dilute what he is getting with? Short of that I wonder if even a small amount of fresh grass grown that might not be hard to manage could help? That also makes me wonder if something like adding wheat grass juice shots could help??????? Adding perhaps an enzyme that the fresh provides but the hay does not?


ETA No, you are not over reacting. I am so sorry you are dealing with this with your precious Harley.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Constant diarrhea is so frustrating. Not to mention it burns their rear ends :frown_color: 

I put a thick skin barrier cream on Dreamer because of the runs, after washing and drying his rear. 

Your Harley is worse than Dreamer was. It definitely could be an intolerance to something, weeds would be my guess. 

But I also wonder if the digestive tract is over active. What are his gut sounds like? Have you compared his gut sounds to the other horses to see if his may be overactive? 

I knew an owner of an elderly mare that gave her Pepto bismol every day for years. 

Have you tried feeding more cubes and less hay? I used the Alfalfa/oat cubes instead of straight Alfalfa.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

That is really bad poor Harley ☹ have you tried GutWerks Horse Tech has it pretty sure they ship to Canada. Shipping might be to high to not sure. 

Just another idea. When I read your post I never thought you were over reacting.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

waresbear said:


> That is bad! So you know it's obviously the hay, I would try just giving him alfalfa cubes with no hay. if you want to stretch it out a little more soak it overnight, it gives it more volume. Does he get diaper rash?


I can't just give him hay cubes. Financially, it would ruin me. He would have to live completely separate from the other horses. He would get ulcers from have zero forage. I just can't eliminate hay completely from his diet. 

Also, he gets hay in the summer. Same hay (same supplier, I get all my hay from the same cut). He's fine. It isn't the presence of hay in his diet that's the problem. It's the absence of grass. So that tells me there's something in the grass that is helping his digestive system. If I only knew what that secret ingredient might be, I could add it to his diet, maybe.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> What about adding an alfalfa/grass cube that you soak? Or is there a grass/alfalfa hay with more mature - higher ADF that you could dilute what he is getting with? Short of that I wonder if even a small amount of fresh grass grown that might not be hard to manage could help? That also makes me wonder if something like adding wheat grass juice shots could help??????? Adding perhaps an enzyme that the fresh provides but the hay does not?
> 
> 
> ETA No, you are not over reacting. I am so sorry you are dealing with this with your precious Harley.


Thank you. Yes, it's so hard. He's pretty miserable. We're giving him a break from riding until we see improvement. 

I also thought of adding wheat grass juice or even powder... I need something that is accessible and that I can add to his diet. 

There is no other hay on the market, especially not this time of year. Hay is a rare commodity around here in the last couple of years. It isn't that expensive, it's just hard to get. That's the problem - farmers aren't making enough money at it to make it worth their while. However, I was talking to some folks at the Equine Expo yesterday and they gave me a lead on a grower who apparently is quite picky and fussy about his hay. I don't even care what he charges at this point, I want his hay. But for now, what we have in the barn is what I have to feed. I have some hay that is poor quality - Rusty and Kodak get that one, unfortunately for them (but they don't seem to care). Harley only gets the "good" hay. And as I've mentioned before, I've tried hay from different suppliers including grass hay (or late cute, finer hay) to no avail. 

Still kind of stuck on the wheat grass thing though... it has its appeal. Going to have to do some research on it.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> Constant diarrhea is so frustrating. Not to mention it burns their rear ends :frown_color:
> 
> I put a thick skin barrier cream on Dreamer because of the runs, after washing and drying his rear.
> 
> ...


Yes, everytime I wash him I want to put cream on his bum. But unless I take a blow drier to his butt, it never dries out completely and I'm reluctant to put a cream on a still-wet bottom, especially in -20C temps. Won't it all just freeze on him? 

Again, if he was allergic to hay or weeds, wouldn't it show up year round? He got hay all summer (I had to close a back pasture) and he was fine. It's just when the grass is gone that this happens. 

I've heard of giving horses Pepto Bismol. I was hoping I could find the cause of the problem rather than just treat the symptom, but it may come to that. 

I could take out a hay feeding and replace it with cubes. Not sure it would make a difference. Something else to try. 

On the gut sounds: the vet noticed that he only heard gut sounds on one side of his hind gut. He was listening close to the hip joint (behind the ribs sort of) and could hear very active gut sounds on the left, but nothing on the right. He thought that was odd. But doesn't have any ideas of what this might indicate.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Have you tried giving Harley the poorer hay? I've noticed if my horses get a finer/higher protein hay (like orchard grass) rather than their usual prairie grass, then they'll get the runs. Go back to their usual prairie hay and they're fine. Otherwise, a biosponge of some type would be my only other suggestion.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

rambo99 said:


> That is really bad poor Harley ☹ have you tried GutWerks Horse Tech has it pretty sure they ship to Canada. Shipping might be to high to not sure.
> 
> Just another idea. When I read your post I never thought you were over reacting.


I have not! Another for the list of things to try. Surely there is something out there that will work! I'm used to paying a lot for shipping here, that's ok. I am spending a lot of money on vet bills and things that don't work, so if I can find something that works, I'll just have to find a way to pay for it.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I never thought you were over reacting but holy crow never in a million years did I expect to see such a serious issue. Bless Harley’s precious soul.



rambo99 said:


> That is really bad poor Harley ☹ have you tried GutWerks Horse Tech has it pretty sure they ship to Canada. Shipping might be to high to not sure.
> 
> .


Ditto to try the GutWerks by HorseTech, regardless of the shipping cost. I just switched to it after using Probios for many years - as in only ten or so days ago. I can already see a difference in Rusty, who needed some help and I’m only feeding 2/3 their recommendation ATM.

If they don’t ship to Canada, there’s any number of us who would be willing to receive the order and forward it on to you

Also ditto putting some sort of medicated cream on his butt or buy up a bunch of generic hemorrhoid ointment. That is what I use on Joker in the summer because his but cheeks rub together and galds him from the sweat


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Have you tried giving Harley the poorer hay? I've noticed if my horses get a finer/higher protein hay (like orchard grass) rather than their usual prairie grass, then they'll get the runs. Go back to their usual prairie hay and they're fine. Otherwise, a biosponge of some type would be my only other suggestion.


Yep, he's had it. He was certainly no better for it, possibly worse. It's awful hay. Full of weeds, branches, goldenrod, litter even. I wouldn't feed it to a goat if I had another option. Thankfully, I only bought a small amount of it so I feed a flake here and there to Kodak and Rusty and let them pick through it. They're pretty good at leaving aside the bad stuff which I pick up off the stall floor after they've eaten what they can.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Yep, he's had it. He was certainly no better for it, possibly worse. It's awful hay. Full of weeds, branches, goldenrod, litter even. I wouldn't feed it to a goat if I had another option. Thankfully, I only bought a small amount of it so I feed a flake here and there to Kodak and Rusty and let them pick through it. They're pretty good at leaving aside the bad stuff which I pick up off the stall floor after they've eaten what they can.


If the GutWerks isn't available, can you get Platinum products? They make a Platinum Bio-Sponge that comes in powder to add to feed and a paste that you just give in the mouth. I've used the paste on new born foals and had immediate results. Here's a link so you can check out the products and if they ship to Canada. https://www.platinumperformance.com/horses/health-categories/horse-all-products?equine_protocol=Digestive+Health


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

GutWerks has been ordered. It's not too bad in terms of cost, but they didn't charge me for shipping because it automatically went to free shipping (this happens sometimes when the form isn't set up to take orders from outside the US - normally they just email me to update the shipping costs and have them approved so it remains to be seen what they will be). In any case, by the time it clears customs, I will not likely get it for a couple of weeks. 

But now I have to decide what I try and in what order. 

Currently, he is on BioEquine's digestive supplement (I got a two week free sample for the cost of shipping). I started it two days ago. Granted, it's too early to see a difference. I spoke to a rep, and she said that it will take time (they all say that). As much as 90 days. Well, I think we can all agree that this cannot continue for 90 days! I will likely keep him on it for a few more days though, just to see if there is improvement, and since I have nothing else to give him right now (unless I try the wheat grass). 

The vet's office is going to send me a prescription for metronidazole, an antibiotic that is supposed to target digestive system issues. It's a bit counter-intuitive, because normally antibiotics would make things worse. Thoughts on this? Has anyone tried it? In any case, it will be days before I receive it because this is the equine vet who came from out of town so they will have to mail it to me or send it by bus or courrier. I feel like I should give the vet the benefit of the doubt and try this for the duration of the treatment (not sure yet what that will be). After that, if no improvement, move to the next thing. 

I have slippery elm bark on order as well - should arrive anyday. I will likely give it to him. It did help in the past, though it didn't solve the problem completely, but I don't know that I want to wait now. 

I've also got an order of BioEZ on the way (https://giddyap.com/products/bio - was suggested by someone here, but I can't remember who now). That was ordered a few days ago so will likely get here before the GutWerks. 

I'm torn between the desire to make Harley better immediately, and the need to hold back and avoid doing everything at once. So I will just have to go through all these systematically I guess, and hope he can hang in there just a little longer. He does drink a lot of water so hopefully he is avoiding dehydration.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Did some reading on Metronidazole here: https://www.wedgewoodpharmacy.com/l...nd-horse-owners/metronidazole-for-horses.html

Which led me to read about Giardia here: https://ker.com/equinews/giardiasis-horses-underreported-threat/

It is highly contagious, including to humans. So it would be surprising that my other horses aren't affected, but Kodak has had the occasional bout of loose stool and I do keep the manure pretty much picked up constantly (since my OCD self goes to the barn about 5 times a day, I pick up manure immediately each time I am out). Maybe this has prevented transmission to some extent, or maybe my other horses are just more able to cope because of their more robust health so they're asymptomatic.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

If the vet prescribed Flagyl (metronidazole) then he's thinking Giardia or some other anaerobic infection, maybe C. difficile, as a possibility. Look up the medication and side effects, there are some worth noting.

** I see we were typing at the same time. Since this only comes on when you feed him certain hays and goes away when you stop, I'd be very skeptical of it being a contagious organism. Vet could be thinking H. Pylori, since he has a history of ulcers. **


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

As far as getting different hay, you have 3 horses. It would be profitable to get a liner load from other high producing areas. Not sure about your area, but here, lots buy from other areas, have it shipped and sell the excess at a profit. However, a change of hay may not solve his diarrhea. Keeping my fingers crossed for the product you ordered.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That was what I was going to suggest. Give him the poorer hay if the only reason it is poor is it is more mature and less digestible. It likely has a higher ADF so you'd know if that was part of the problem in winter. That tells you that there is too much undigested in his front end that is getting digested in the back end and changing that environment. The higher ADF doesn't make as great of a change because it doesn't get digested. It just fills the space. Fresh grass has enzymes that are going to help deal with that, plus the added water that goes in with it as well as and it sounds WooWoo but a different energy. Living vs dead. Gong back to it filling space - if he needs calories that would mean adding something that is a fat and not a carb to take keep calories from digested foods the same.



I would not use the powdered product. I would not trust it would have the same enzymatic effect. I know they use different ways to dry and prep band it may well work from a reputable company but my preference would be fresh. That means I'd be making sure it is not a mass produced pasteurized product for the same reason I'd avoid powders. Age is also going to have an effect. May still work so you would need to try different products. For the amount it takes for a shot of grass juice, growing your own and juicing is not a big deal. It also makes me wonder if something like kombucha would do anything. If that is truly the issue it would explain why somethings would work for a little while soothing the gut but then they don't work quite as well or you see some improvement but just not total fix. 



I've dug up a couple of books and emailed a friend so will do some more reading. For whatever it is worth pectins do not cause the problems. They digest better. Do not add to the acidity of the gut and produce a high cation exchange capacity that reduces acid levels (buffering effect). Beet pulp should work if it was only that and nothing else as it has more pectin and higher CEC but there is still something missing if you have him on beet pulp and there is no change or only slight change. Makes me also wonder if the papaya enzymes you can get for digestion would make a difference. I am thinking alfalfa has a higher fat content, better amino acid profile is still high in pectin and the CEC. Adding 3 to 5 pounds to replace part of the grass hay that is soaked could make more of a difference than the beet pulp.




ETA for clarity soaked alfalfa cubes.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Just catching up on reading replies I missed. 



Metronidazole kills off the C. diff (an anaerobic bacteria) that overpopulates when the gut microbes get skewed if dietary changes change the PH. So while it kills other things it also brings that number down and back in line. C, diff cause horrible runs especially in foals.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@waresbear - we can't get hay from anywhere. No one trucks hay into my area, though some local farmers truck hay out of our area. I don't know what a liner load is, I just know there's no hay available here. 

On the topic of hay, @QtrBel, can you explain to me the logic of feeding him bad hay? Did you see what I wrote about it above? It's awful, smells bad, is brown, full of weeds, tree branches, litter from the road, goldenrod. Total junk hay. I'm not clear why you think it would be a good idea to feed it to him. The other hay is greener, smells better, has less weeds, though it's a little coarser than I'd like.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I had not read your reply when I posted. For many "poor" hay is later growth stage. Lower protein, stemmy, not as palatable. "Bad" hay is a totally different story. If it is weedy, full of trash... not something you would feed a goat. Not poor but bad. No. I wouldn't take the chance on that. This was what I had said just after that "Give him the poorer hay -* if the only reason it is poor is it is more mature and less digestible*." If he is experiencing overload (overload as determined by "richness" of the hay) in the foregut and it is dumping undigested material (that should digest in the fore) into the hind that can cause all sorts of problems in the hind gut. Some horses handle it better than others. For some horses that really nice hay is overkill for their systems.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks @QrtBel, I understand what you're saying. The "good" hay is actually slightly overmature. I had it analyzed, but that doesn't really tell us much, especially given that I have tried many other hay suppliers (and different cuttings) with the same results.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Have you posted the results somewhere? or could you pm the results if you don't want to post them on the forum? I would be curious and would like to see if it is in line with some of what I have been reading.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Liner load is what everyone calls it, I think it's short for Freightliner. A friend of mine would buy hay from Alberta for cheaper than they could get here with trucking.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> Have you posted the results somewhere? or could you pm the results if you don't want to post them on the forum? I would be curious and would like to see if it is in line with some of what I have been reading.


Happy to share! Here they are. A group of us who actually bother to test our hay in my area also have a bit of a database going where we share hay analysis results from local farmers. We've found that the results are very similar from one hay sample to another, so this is pretty representative of the hay we get around here.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

waresbear said:


> Liner load is what everyone calls it, I think it's short for Freightliner. A friend of mine would buy hay from Alberta for cheaper than they could get here with trucking.


Gotcha. There was talk of getting a load from Quebec, but not enough people were willing to pay the price so it fell apart. Unless I want to go get it, it's highly unlikely I'd be able to get hay in from another province, at least not for the amount that I need.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Looking at that in terms of ADF as well as the overall picture that would say to me to try a hay with higher ADF. As it is unlikely you would be able to at this point then if it were me I would replace 3-5 pounds of that hay with cubes. Preferably grass/alfalfa but alfalfa would work you would stay closer to 3 pounds while with the mix you may want to try closer to 5. Divide and soak before serving. If I was seeing improvement but not quite where I wanted to be then I would try adding in the wheat grass juice. If that ends up being what works best then you may want to look into growing and juicing your own but if you are going to that extent then I'd see how much juice provides the best results and then figure if I could grow the equivalent amount of grass. When I used to grow and juice one pound of grass with our electric juicer could get about 12 ounces of juice and that was plenty for two people for a two to three day period. 



I would think by now there would be less expensive but well made juicers for this purpose.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> Looking at that in terms of ADF as well as the overall picture that would say to me to try a hay with higher ADF. As it is unlikely you would be able to at this point then if it were me I would replace 3-5 pounds of that hay with cubes. Preferably grass/alfalfa but alfalfa would work you would stay closer to 3 pounds while with the mix you may want to try closer to 5. Divide and soak before serving. If I was seeing improvement but not quite where I wanted to be then I would try adding in the wheat grass juice. If that ends up being what works best then you may want to look into growing and juicing your own but if you are going to that extent then I'd see how much juice provides the best results and then figure if I could grow the equivalent amount of grass. When I used to grow and juice one pound of grass with our electric juicer could get about 12 ounces of juice and that was plenty for two people for a two to three day period.
> 
> 
> 
> I would think by now there would be less expensive but well made juicers for this purpose.


I have the name of a hay supplier who is apparently very fussy about his hay so I'll be in touch with him soon to get more hay for summer. However, no hay supplier tests his hay here, so the only way I'll know if the hay is better or worse is by testing again. I'm willing to do that, but again, since results are pretty similar with all hays around here (at least from the results I have seen shared by others) so this may just be typical of the soil/hay in my area. Replacing some of the hay with hay cubes would be an option. I could take out a hay feeding and replace it with cubes. 

As for juicing and growing my own wheat grass to juice, I'll keep it in my back pocket in case nothing else works. I like the idea, but growing wheat grass in my basement 8 months a year sounds a bit daunting, especially in quantities sufficient to feed a horse enough that it will make a difference. Still... I haven't ruled out the idea. 

He's nice and clean again btw. I washed him around noon, when the temperature went up to a balmy -12C. Put some diaper cream on, but hoping it's not going to freeze solid on his butt.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

One small flat (10X10) should produce 1 pound of grass. If you go the juice route and purchase and know he does well on 3 ounces a day say then that one flat should provide three days worth of grass (or if you want to juice so family could benefit) or it may be he could just eat the flat and you have a new flat every 3 days. So with one day gro light and three flats (1ft x 3ft) space you could keep him in grass if that amount worked. You may find he didn't need 3 ounces but could do fine on 1. Much cheaper but it may be that the juice works out and is not cost prohibitive. Well skip that if you don't have local. I just looked it up $329 for 200 ounces frozen and shipped from their plant Plus shipping of course. YIKES. I looked at the powders and for those prices I think I would try that. It looks like they have come a long way and that there are several reputable suppliers of the powdered form.


ETA if I did it for one though I couldn't not do it for the rest.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Acadian, If you do decide to try Vitamin E I've found this to be a good one. Not sure if you can get it where you are at but I guess you can check if interested. I give my girls this in the winter.

https://www.amazon.com/Puritans-Pri...efix=1000+iu+natural+vitamin+e,aps,195&sr=8-4


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

LoriF said:


> Acadian, If you do decide to try Vitamin E I've found this to be a good one. Not sure if you can get it where you are at but I guess you can check if interested. I give my girls this in the winter.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Puritans-Pri...efix=1000+iu+natural+vitamin+e,aps,195&sr=8-4


Thanks @LoriF! He gets lots of vit. E right now, but I know it's a tricky one because it's supposed to be in oil so it gets absorbed. I don't think a vit. E deficiency is causing the loose stool, but it can't hurt.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I've heard that about needing to feed oil along with the vitamin E to get it absorbed, but have read that this is not true. There has to be fat in the diet in order for it to be absorbed, but that fat can be eaten any time during the day. 
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-09-fatty-foods-vitamin-absorption.html

There is a similar idea that you have to eat different plant proteins at the same time in order to create a "complete protein," when actually your body holds onto the necessary components and creates complete proteins out of them later.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

Acadianartist said:


> I haven't done Succeed. I've done a number of others (Omega Alpha, Mad Barn, even human grade pre and probiotics) to no avail, but Succeed is worth adding to my list of things to try! Thanks!
> 
> Edit: So I had a look, and I can get Succeed in Canada (though I don't see anything about a money back guarantee). Can you tell me which product you used? There are few listed on the website.


There is a 60-day program where you either do tubes of supplement for 30 days, and then granules, or you do tubes all 60 days. 

https://www.succeed-equine.com/learn-more-about-challenge/

But of course it's only available in the U.S....


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> I've heard that about needing to feed oil along with the vitamin E to get it absorbed, but have read that this is not true. There has to be fat in the diet in order for it to be absorbed, but that fat can be eaten any time during the day.
> https://medicalxpress.com/news/2019-09-fatty-foods-vitamin-absorption.html
> 
> There is a similar idea that you have to eat different plant proteins at the same time in order to create a "complete protein," when actually your body holds onto the necessary components and creates complete proteins out of them later.


Well that's a game-changer! Posting in a horse nutrition forum for reactions, but it is very promising! So in theory, as long as you feed some kind of fat - flax seed for example - the vitamin E will stick to it and get absorbed even if it's not given at the same time as the vit. E. Very cool!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> The Amino Trace + already contains 22 500 IU of Vitamin A.
> 
> I agree, I do micromanage. No argument there. But honestly, if you saw him right now, you'd want to consult a vet too. He literally has liquid poop frozen as poopsicles on his tail and butt. It's -20C so I can't wash him tonight. This is the worst he's ever been. Every winter, I feel like I've found something that helps in the sense that I see small improvement. But then when it comes back the following fall, and I try the same thing again, no improvement. It's getting worse.


Sorry I forgot to add. Hoffman's has vitamin A in it as well, I feed that year-round pretty much. However, come fall I give my horses liquid vitamin A from the feed store. Says it's for cows and swine, but Scotty has never had any skin irritation since I started using that.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

This is what the bagged minerals contain and this is what I add for 7 days when Scotty is more prone to skin problems.
















I used to use other bagged minerals but since I found out that one of my horses was bred by the developers of Hoffman's Minerals, I feel obliged to use it.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks @waresbear! Harley is very prone to skin issues, but at the moment, as I'm sure you'll agree, the diarrhea is more pressing. He does get vits A and E in fairly high doses, but I'll keep these in mind if we can ever get the digestive issues under control. 

Here is a breakdown of what the Amino Trace + supplement contains:


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## Dragoon (Nov 25, 2013)

So sorry you have this problem!

One of the boarders at my barn has the same thing. Loose stool in the winter, but not when on grass. I have no solution, but a suggestion. We are putting the pony's tail up to keep it free from poopsicles. It is working surprisingly well! The girl brushes it out for riding, and braids and wraps it back up after. 
Washing his bum has to wait for a warm enough day. We only have a garden hose and freezing water...it takes six kettles heated to get enough to wash with.
This is what I did Christmas morning, in fact. It was 6 or 7 degrees, so I washed a pony butt!

Hope you find a cure! Good luck!


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I know vitamin E has been mentioned that Harley needs more. Ice is on 4,300 IU per day of vit E. Ice gets the poops also, but not to degree Harley does.

Vit E hasn't changed it at all ,also ice gets vitamin A think 8,000 IU per day.. 

I ordered the GutWerks here should have it by Thursday.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Gutwerks has been put on hold for now. Shipping is going to cost me 50$. Not saying I won't do it, but I need to give the antibiotics a chance to work first anyway (not going to do more than one thing at a time so I know which one works). 

He's been better since the disaster you saw Saturday. I did stop the beet pulp and he is still on BioEquine. The BioEZ is on its way. One thing at a time...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Hopefully his diarrhea will be resolved by then. I only give liquid vitamin A late summer, early fall as that's when Scotty is more prone to skin goopies. I give 5cc for a week and that's it.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

waresbear said:


> Hopefully his diarrhea will be resolved by then. I only give liquid vitamin A late summer, early fall as that's when Scotty is more prone to skin goopies. I give 5cc for a week and that's it.


Harley's skin troubles tend to start in July. Our hottest, driest month. Go figure... 

But it sounds like a good idea to increase his vit. A and E dramatically as a preventative. From the sounds of it, while he's already getting some, he could be getting more. 

On another note, my daughter now wants to be a pharmacist. I told her she could get rich developing horse supplements!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> Harley's skin troubles tend to start in July. Our hottest, driest month. Go figure...


That is when Rusty starts having skin issues AND digestive issues. My theory is that’s when the chemistry of plants start changing and some hors3s are sensitive to it.

Plus they are already staring to grow winter hair while it’s 95 degrees, so they are sweating. 

I blame Rusty’s seasonal digestive issues on eating plants that taste great because their favor is changing as Fall nears. He loves Johnson Grass once it gets tall enough to nearly hide his 16.1H self. I can only guess what else he eats that he shouldn’t during late summer.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> That is when Rusty starts having skin issues AND digestive issues. My theory is that’s when the chemistry of plants start changing and some hors3s are sensitive to it.
> 
> Plus they are already staring to grow winter hair while it’s 95 degrees, so they are sweating.
> 
> I blame Rusty’s seasonal digestive issues on eating plants that taste great because their favor is changing as Fall nears. He loves Johnson Grass once it gets tall enough to nearly hide his 16.1H self. I can only guess what else he eats that he shouldn’t during late summer.


Agreed, mid-summer something happens to plants. Alsike clover became a big problem for us last summer and after the horses came in with blisters on their noses, I had to close the back pasture completely. That's when his skin issues began. But it was the same thing the previous summer (maybe there was alsike but it wasn't widespread enough for me to take notice). He's still digesting ok until about October though. He's still on pasture in October, but I'm increasing hay because the grass is no longer nutritious (it's just busy feed). That's when he starts with the loose stool.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I am not an equine nutritionist, or an expert by any means. But that picture of Harley's stools is quite shocking. Hearing that your vet doesn't know why Harley has less gut sounds on one side is alarming. 

What you showed in the pictures, is not a case of diarrhea, that is incomplete digestion causing continuous loose stools (IMO) verified by the lack of gut sounds. My Dreamer never had anything approaching that degree of problem. Dreamer had mostly correctly formed manure with minor amounts of liquid stools at times when eating fresh grass in the spring. I don't have a picture, but it looked very similar to the type of nervous, liquid stools like when loading on a trailer or something. 


Can your vet do an ultrasound or anything to see where in the digestive tract is the problem? 


IMO, you need to be feeding Harley easy to digest foods, and increase the rate of absorption by the gi tract by keeping him completely free of intestinal worms/parasites and administering probiotics. Plus find out what part(s) of his intestines are not functioning correctly and why. 


I used Corona cream on Dreamers rear, as far as I know it doesn't freeze...but we don't have as cold of weather as you do...


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

AnitaAnne said:


> I am not an equine nutritionist, or an expert by any means. But that picture of Harley's stools is quite shocking. Hearing that your vet doesn't know why Harley has less gut sounds on one side is alarming.
> 
> What you showed in the pictures, is not a case of diarrhea, that is incomplete digestion causing continuous loose stools (IMO) verified by the lack of gut sounds. My Dreamer never had anything approaching that degree of problem. Dreamer had mostly correctly formed manure with minor amounts of liquid stools at times when eating fresh grass in the spring. I don't have a picture, but it looked very similar to the type of nervous, liquid stools like when loading on a trailer or something.
> 
> ...


I gotta say, that makes the most sense of anything so far. 

When Rusty developed serious digestive issues, he never had any diarrhea but he did have so much gas his stomach bloated and the gaseous odor was so terrible, I thought he would catch the barn on fire. 

The traditional vet was no help. It took the holistic vet, with many years of training in Eastern medicine, to straighten him out. 

She was able to pinpoint two areas of concern that may or may not have been related. She said his lungs were “full of crap”, in spite of what the other vet said, and he had issues clear thru his digestive tract.

Rusty will still have flare ups in the summer but they have been able to resolve themselves, since that major episode.


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## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

You've been given a lot of suggestions, and I have a few ideas if the antibiotic doesn't improve his diarrhea. The Amino Trace + supplement you posted has 11 grams of magnesium per serving. That could be a contributing factor. I'm a big fan of magnesium, but with his diarrhea, I would be cautious of such a high dose.


The other thing I wondered about was that you said you only feed flax in the winter. I know you tried eliminating it, but for how long? Flax makes me more nauseous than any other food.



One last thing popped into my mind when I read that this starts in mid-July and gets progressively worse in October. Has he been tested for PPID? The timing of his digestive problems coordinates with the seasonal rise in the hormone ACTH. I wouldn't normally think of diarrhea as a symptom of PPID, but the skin problems are. My 10-year-old gelding was just diagnosed with PPID, and I never would have guessed it. However, looking back for the past few years, he has had various ailments every fall. I'm learning that PPID affects more than just the coat and urination. I'm not saying Harley has PPID, just that it might be something to test for to make sure his hormones aren't affecting his health.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

So first off - yes, that photo was horrible. But it isn't like that every day, that day just happened to be awful. I agree, it's a problem. That's why I have had vet after vet come and look at it, and have tried every product I could get my hands on. The vet who is following him currently is working on trying to figure this out so I'm giving him a chance to do his job. 

Out of curiosity, I listened to Harley's gut last night (before reading this) and he had lots of gut sounds on both sides. The vet did say that just because he wasn't hearing any at that precise moment, it didn't mean it was always like that, and encouraged me to check once in a while. 

Right now, he is eating hay and hay cubes. Doesn't get much easier to digest than that. He's had prebiotics, probiotics, enzymes, and is currently on Bioequine which contains all those things as well. He is dewormed twice a year with different types of dewormers to make sure we cover all parasites that can be eliminated with dewormers. The antibiotic the vet prescribed targets other gut parasites though. And his worm counts are always low on fecals. I deworm him anyway. If he has parasites, they are not the kind easily eliminated by dewormers, thus the need for antibiotics. 

I have taken out the flax before. No change. He's actually off the Amino Trace plus for the last couple of days because there are minerals in the Bioequine that are also found in the Amino Trace + and I don't want to double-dose him. But he's only been on Amino Trace + for a few months. He had diarrhea last winter and the winter before and he wasn't on it. 

I have had his metabolic profile done twice and he has normal levels of ACTH. 

Ultrasound may be an option. But I'd like to wait and see if the antibiotic helps first as it will be very expensive to do an ultrasound.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I had an ultrasound done on Herbie, so was going to give you an idea of the cost. 

However, there was no charge for it...

The colic work up - clinic exam was 169.30 so I guess that included the ultrasound. Or maybe they were just being kind to me. 


Only other charges are for the euthanasia and burial.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Harley's skin troubles tend to start in July. Our hottest, driest month. Go figure...
> 
> But it sounds like a good idea to increase his vit. A and E dramatically as a preventative. From the sounds of it, while he's already getting some, he could be getting more.
> 
> On another note, my daughter now wants to be a pharmacist. I told her she could get rich developing horse supplements!


My daughter is a pharmacist!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks AnitaAnne - wow, for 169$ I would already have done it. I paid 500$ for x-rays. Not sure who has a portable ultrasound machine, but it's probably going to be more than that - I just found out from someone locally that it can be done. I'll ask what she paid. Everything here is more expensive. Still, probably my next step if the antibiotics don't work. 

That's very cool @waresbear! My daughter is really interested in medicine, but doesn't want to be a doctor (too peoply). She loves research. Pharmaceuticals is just her most recent career choice, but at 14, that can change of course. How does your daughter like it? Does she work in a pharmacy? DD says she'd like to open her own pharmacy someday so she can be in control of her hours, etc. She's a bit of a control freak. Not at all like her mom, hehehe...

She's going to Ottawa soon to do a week-long internship/conference type of thing where she spends time with various health professionals so perhaps that will give her some ideas too.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Have you decided not to try the grass in any form to see if adding those enzymes help?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> Have you decided not to try the grass in any form to see if adding those enzymes help?


Not at all, I'm just trying one thing at a time. I don't think it's a good idea to throw everything at him at once, obviously. But if we can't find something to add to his diet, or some treatment to remove whatever it is that is causing the problem, and if giving him grass is the only solution, then I'll look at that too. Just making a list of things to try right now while I wait to see if the antibiotic will help.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks AnitaAnne - wow, for 169$ I would already have done it. I paid 500$ for x-rays. Not sure who has a portable ultrasound machine, but it's probably going to be more than that - I just found out from someone locally that it can be done. I'll ask what she paid. Everything here is more expensive. Still, probably my next step if the antibiotics don't work.
> 
> That's very cool @waresbear! My daughter is really interested in medicine, but doesn't want to be a doctor (too peoply). She loves research. Pharmaceuticals is just her most recent career choice, but at 14, that can change of course. How does your daughter like it? Does she work in a pharmacy? DD says she'd like to open her own pharmacy someday so she can be in control of her hours, etc. She's a bit of a control freak. Not at all like her mom, hehehe...
> 
> She's going to Ottawa soon to do a week-long internship/conference type of thing where she spends time with various health professionals so perhaps that will give her some ideas too.


I carry my horses into the vet, they are too far to travel here, so don't know about portable, but they wheeled it over to him from the surgery room...so I guess it would be.

I take my horse to the big Equine only vet center. They are specialists in equine medicine. Folks come from neighboring states to go there. 


Can't remember what the charges were for xrays, but I get Chivas hooves xrays a few times a year to see if he can go barefoot or not. I think less than $100 but just not sure.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> My daughter is really interested in medicine, but doesn't want to be a doctor (too peoply). She loves research. Pharmaceuticals is just her most recent career choice, but at 14, that can change of course.
> .


Another consideration might be sonography.

My niece is in her freshman year in what is called a 2+2 program. Her first two years are business with the final two learning to do sonography. It’s people contact but not near as much as being a doctor or nurse would be.

My SIL is an oncology RN but she’s on the business side these days due to her RA. She knows there are plenty of job opportunities in their area for sonographers and my niece could be financially independent.

Ok, back to regularly scheduled programming


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, my daughter works in a pharmacy and manages it. She said she wanted to be a pharmacist when she was 16. She did 4 years in university to get her Bachelors in science of pharmacy. She does enjoy it, she says it's a lot of work and she's very busy, but she quite likes the big salary.


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## Aldo (Aug 6, 2019)

We have an 18 yo Quarter Horse that had the same problem for several years. We tried everything including antibiotics. It wasnt until we had his teeth floated by a new equine dentist that she noticed a tooth that was infected.
She removed the tooth and we treated him with a course of antibiotics and the problem disappeared. Apparently the low grade infection in his mouth was just enough to mess his gut up.
Good luck,Iknow what a pain it is to keep them clean especially in the winter.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Aldo said:


> We have an 18 yo Quarter Horse that had the same problem for several years. We tried everything including antibiotics. It wasnt until we had his teeth floated by a new equine dentist that she noticed a tooth that was infected.
> She removed the tooth and we treated him with a course of antibiotics and the problem disappeared. Apparently the low grade infection in his mouth was just enough to mess his gut up.
> Good luck,Iknow what a pain it is to keep them clean especially in the winter.


Sure is a pain. The equine vet checked his teeth and didn't see anything. But he chews funny (he also smacks his lips though, so we kind of look at this as him becoming more quirky in his old age). I'll mention it again next time the vet is here.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> Sure is a pain. The equine vet checked his teeth and didn't see anything. But he chews funny (he also smacks his lips though, so we kind of look at this as him becoming more quirky in his old age). I'll mention it again next time the vet is here.


Add this to the list:

Have the vet feel way down under the tongue for polyps. The PPE vet found one under Duke’s tongue when I bought him as a three year old. 

The vet was able to pop it off with his thumb. All was well for 17-18 years when it had grown back to where Duke had to be tranq’d and have it cut out.

Duke never smacked his lips but he dropped his food like a horse with tooth issues, except he didn’t have tooth issues.

The polyp was way under the tongue, where the tongue attaches to whatever it attaches to.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

walkinthewalk said:


> Add this to the list:
> 
> Have the vet feel way down under the tongue for polyps. The PPE vet found one under Duke’s tongue when I bought him as a three year old.
> 
> ...


Wow, well that's something I would have never thought of. Thanks! You never know. And hey, even if it's not Harley's problem, it adds to the wealth of knowledge on horse health that I have gained since buying Harley 4 years ago! Still the best decision I ever made for my daughter's first horse, btw. He's a lot of work, but worth every minute. 

His diarrhea has been better in the last few days (loose stool, but not liquid like the pic I posted) so they did a lesson tonight. They are just amazing together. 

He just started on the antibiotic. Keeping my fingers crossed. But if it doesn't work, at least I have a lot of suggestions to try from you generous folks!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

We were doing chores around the barn today and my daughter yelled at me to come see Harley pooping, lol. I took a picture for you fine HF folks. 

It's probably just a fluke. He's only been on the antibiotics a couple of days. Unless it's the Bioequine kicking in. In any case, we were pretty happy with it!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Dirty pictures, my favorite!! 

So good your daughter is learning to study manure  

YAY for Harley!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

So glad to see this!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Updating to say that 4 days into the Metronidazole, Harley is continuing to have beautiful (yes, I am using that word to describe poop now) round, solid stool! He's off his hay cubes, and isn't terribly interested in hay, so we are seeing a loss of appetite typical of this antibiotic. But he only needs to hang on another 6 days and then we can fatten him back up. He's also on probiotics to offset the ill effects of the antibiotics, but atm, he isn't getting them since he refuses to eat his hay cubes. I may resort to adding a bit of unsweetened applesauce. Or worry about the probiotics after he's done the antibiotics because it's probably pointless to give them now anyway.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yay, solid poop!!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

So glad you are seeing improvement.


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