# Beginner adult male rider..



## DuffyDuck

Hey and welcome to the forum!

I wouldn't worry about age. My dad started at the age of 43, and now has his own horse and enjoys riding for pleasure.

I can completely understand your lesson views, and as a begginer, I would be expecting a trainer to show me the horse from the ground up. How to lead, groom, tack up. Its alright turning up to ride, but I knew a girl who rode and rode, but never tacked up once. She bought her own horse and expected the livery yard to crack on with it for her 

After that, equipment check for yourself to make sure you're wearing the correct gears- shoes with a heel, comfortable trousers and possibly gloves.

When it comes to the actual riding, I like to make sure students get the basic school figures (Whole school, 20m circle, change of rein) and halt. Only when they have mastered halt will I allow trot. That way, a student has a better understanding of how to slow, or stop a horse.

As to your last question.. my dad always said if he knew horses where such a ;chick magnet' he would have started years ago ;D I reckon they'd be pretty supportive. We think its great when we get any male riders in, beginner, happy hacker or advanced. Makes a change from the norm.

All I can say is find a good trainer, sit in some of their lessons and watch them teaching, try not to be nervous and enjoy! You have some experience which will help you, its just learning. Its a great sport, and something you will hopefully enjoy and stick with!


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## Cinder

You might want to check out a blog by this guy I found. You'll find it by searching "Horse Crazy Bob Goddard" on Google, clicking on the appropriate website (probably the first) and then clicking "Bob the Equestrian". He is also an older beginner male rider and quite funny! He has an advantage over you though, since he was introduced to the horse world through his daughter/s.

What should you expect when you begin lessons? Every instructor is a little different. You might be expected to learn to groom and tack up, or this may be done for you. You may have a mostly ground lesson the first time, or be put on the lunge line, you may just hop right on. Most likely the most advanced thing you will be doing in your first lesson is some cone or barrel weaving on a school master. 

If you really enjoy riding, I'd advise you to get a helmet, paddock boots (as they are much cheaper than tall boots) with the proper heel (usually described as 1 inch, anything made by an actual horse company is usually good to go though), and gloves. Gloves help prevent the reins burning your hands, keep your hands warm in the winter, and help keep your hands feeling nice when doing barn chores if you end up participating in them.

Pfft, you're just scared all those 12-year-olds would show you up :lol:. (Just kidding)! Most instructors do not specialize in adults, I'd be surprised if you found anything like that since the riding market seems to be more centered toward children and teens. But almost all instructors do provide private lessons (beware though, that these are often more expensive and shorter in length than a group lesson. If you plan to show it's a good idea to get one or two group lessons for the benefit of being able to maneuver in an arena with many different horses moving in it). Most people think they progress faster taking private lessons, which is a plus. 

When looking for an instructor, it's important you're open-minded but not willing to settle. If you stick with the wrong instructor you're just going to end up wasting time and money when you could be someplace better, and end up with a bunch of bad habits which take time to break (trust me on this one). What you want in an instructor depends on your personality- perhaps you're quiet and don't want anyone too loud, perhaps you're really clumsy and kind of dense and want some one with a lot of patience, etc. 

Personally, I love it when I see male riders, even older ones. I know a lot of other female riders think the same way. It's pretty rare now in a lot of places to see a male rider and it's refreshing when you do see one. If you're single you won't have any trouble looking for potential dating prospects :lol: (because there are also older women who ride, even beginner ones)! You're probably going to be teased, but if you have a good sense of humour about it you should find that the barn will provide a few good friends. 

Good luck and have fun! Remember not to care what anybody thinks and to kick butt and take names!


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## maura

Welcome to the forum!

Duffy has made a lot of good points, above. 

As someone who taught for many years, I can say first of all, that an adult male beginner is unusual, but not unheard of - I taught a dozen or so. Most instructors will be thrilled to have you and delighted to work with you. Adult students make for a refreshing change for most instructors. 

You should look for a riding school or facility that has other adult riders, you want to make sure that they have both horses and tack sized for adults. Many facilities will have adult only lessons. Even so, it's a good idea to schedule a series of private lessons first to get one on one instruction in the basics before joining a group lesson. 

I think you'll find female adult riders welcoming and supportive. Their reaction to you will likely be that it's wonderful that you're doing this, and that they wish that their husbands/boyfriends would do the same. You may even feel a bit smothered by the attention. (I had a teen boy student for a while, and I was concerned that he would never learn to groom and tack up by himself, as he always had a small army of girls "helping.")

As to what to expect, your first lessons focus on position and elementary control: How to position yourself in the saddle effectively, how to hold the reins, how to stop, go, turn and basic horse handling. 

Good luck, and please post back about how it's going. 

PS - And now, for the most important tip for male riders - wear an athletic supporter.


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## jinxremoving

I was in your shoes at one point, an adult male rider that's a bit older than you but I had the same questions and concerns...

Every instructor is going to be different but most will start off with how to safely approach a horse, the anatomy, how to halter, grooming, tack up and then untack. Leading the horse, mounting, dismounting and then eventually move to mounted lessons where you start off with the very basics at the walk. I would suggest picking up a few books if you can, I personally found the Pony Club Manuals to be extremely helpful. The books are aimed at children looking to ride English but it's written well enough that even an adult can appreciate the content.

Definitely start off with private lessons. You'll learn so much faster and then eventually you can always add some group lessons into the mix, to learn how to ride with other horses around. Most instructors can work with both adults and children, I don't think it's necessary to look for one that specializes in adults. Also don't be concerned if the instructor is younger than you, a lot of them have been riding their entire life and have a lot of knowledge to share.

My experience at an English barn...

If there are other guys around than it's usually not a big deal. However, if you are the only guy riding then you'll attract a lot of attention whether you want it or not. I'm a very shy person and I still get "hounded" at the barn which makes me feel a bit uneasy but I'm sure some guys would love the attention. Being a guy at a barn does have it's benefits though, you get a pass from the typical barn drama and people seem more eager to help you if you have any questions.

This needs to be said because it's so blatant at times... but be aware that some ignorant people will question your sexuality if you ride English instead of Western. If you detect a bit of that, talk about an ex-girlfriend or something in a relevant discussion to set them straight in a subtle way. Unless of course you're not straight, in which case I think the ladies will love you even more.

The main thing is to have fun and don't worry about what other people are thinking. I spent too much time worrying about how I would be perceived as both an adult beginner and a male rider in a female dominated sport, and most of my concerns were unfounded. You will run into the occasional snot who asks if you're doing this to impress someone, but like everything in life there will always be that one a-hole you have to deal with.


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## jinxremoving

maura said:


> PS - And now, for the most important tip for male riders - wear an athletic supporter.


I assume you're referring to a cup? Horribly uncomfortable and a bit too revealing if you wear breeches like myself. 

I'm sure every guy is different when it comes to this subject, but what I found to work best besides learning how to ride properly was to wear tight boxer briefs or just plain briefs. The underwear needs to be tight! I cannot ride in boxers or loose fitting briefs. Reason being, that the tighter the underwear is the easier it is to "position" yourself and have things stay in one area. Less mishaps while you learn how to ride and especially the posting trot.


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## Skipsfirstspike

^^
I am sure she didnt mean a cup, but a jock strap. Holds the goods in snugly without the hard plastic 'cup'.


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## bsms

Do you want to ride English, Western, or just get started in either?

No need to wear a cup, and none that I know of to wear a jock strap, BTW.


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## usandpets

Welcome to the horse world. I can't give any advice on lessons because I never took any. The only instruction I got was at a summer camp many years ago. Everything I've learned was from books and tv or videos and from experienced people, such as riders or stable owners. 

I too wish I had gotten into horses at a much younger age. Not only for the girls/ladies, but because I enjoy it so much. 

I don't do shows but ride for fun. I like to trail ride but I've done judged trail rides. You do compete against others but it's mainly to see where you are with your horse and their training. The first one I did, I was the only guy. I felt a little out of place at first but thought to myself that those other guys don't know what they're missing. 

So don't worry about what others might think. Go ahead and enjoy yourself. 

About the tight undies or jockstrap: some guys don't like to have it all bunched up. Riding western, you sit back on your pockets, so they don't get scrunched anyway. I don't know about riding English.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kait18

welcome 

as for trainer find someone who knows what there talking about and who you are comfortable with. you will want someone you can be open with 

as for what the girls will be thinking ...hmmm i would bet they will be shocked at first but its almost every females dream to have a guy to ride with... so dont worry its an extra hobby horse women will like about you. 


remember to have fun and enjoy it.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Welcome to the forum! 

I think it's great when adults want to learn to ride, regardless of male or female. I have 2 adult students and I very much welcome them. It's a great change of pace from teaching kids. I especially like that adults ask more questions and the lessons with my adult students tend to have a more free flowing discussion type of feel rather than me talking and me talking some more. 

I wouldn't worry at all what others think, it's your dime paying for the lesson. If you are truly concerned, look for a small barn (possibly one with a trainer/instructor that isn't necessarily a boarding barn with a regular crowd) and start with private lessons. Another option if your schedule allows is to go during the day while kids are in school. 

As far as what to expect, starting from the beginning you should be shown every detail that goes into it from catching, grooming, leading, safety zones, picking hooves, tacking up, etc. I don't even have students ride the first couple of lessons. It's all about safe handling on the ground, learning to tie a quick release knot, getting a feel for the animal, learning how a horses vision works, etc.

As far as what to wear, can't speak from experience as I'm female but my hubby prefers to ride in boxer briefs. 

Good luck!


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## maura

For clarification, I did teach hunt seat riding, and most male riders I taught, including a old bf, were happiest wearing either a standard jock strap or a snug pair of briefs. The bike short type of brief seemed to be ideal.

For experienced riders it may not be that big a deal, but while learning to post, ride in two point or jump, it's a wise precaution.


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## iridehorses

Think of it as a chick magnet (not at my age but certainly at yours).

Wearing something more binding is certainly a prerequisite and will save you from singing soprano after a lesson. Find a good trainer who understands the problems you are facing. I was fortunate enough to have family to teach me but many of my riding partners learned as they went along which is the very wrong way to learn. You need a solid base and will progress quickly with that.

Good luck to you. Horses are a life long addiction and one that I could never see me without - even after all these years.


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## kitten_Val

mind said:


> - What should I expect when I begin lessons?
> 
> - I'd like to take private lessons, actually, it's almost a necessity. I find the idea of being in a class with 12 year old girls unappealing, naturally. Should I try to an instructor who specializes in adults, what should I look for in one?
> 
> - Silly question, but give me some feedback on my being a beginner male rider my age? I'm a guy, it's inevitable that I'll be wondering what the female riders at a barn are thinking when they see a beginner male rider my age, a bit of insight would be unbelievably helpful towards alleviating those superficial concerns.


- You should expect to improve in your riding! 

- In all barns I went to for lessons they never paired adults and kids for the group lesson. I did ride with teenagers couple times, and I was asked if I don't mind that (I didn't). So if it's only your concern I highly doubt it'll be a case. :wink: With that being said personally I go with the private lessons even though they are more expensive: the trainer is focused on you only and you learn so much! I never had luck with the group lessons (but I never took _beginner _group lessons either). 

- I'm absolutely positive female riders will love to see a male rider (whether beginner or advanced) in barn. I've seen it happen in past so many times. 

And Welcome to the Forum!


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## Kelly22790

I'd love to have a man my age to ride with. Lucky for the women around you! Lol. 

I suggest finding a male instructor (as long as they are good). I know of a male instructor/trainer around here that says he is so surrounded by women he wishes that he had a male "student" to work with. He's older, in his 60s, and he said that when he was younger (around our age....early 20s) he used to ride with ALL men and now it's all women. 

My suggestion is to try and figure out what type of riding you would like to do and if you would like to do a sport/compete or if you just want to ride for fun. If you can find a GOOD male instructor....go for it. If not, there are plenty of female riders who are more than capable. 

Good luck and enjoy


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## bsms

maura said:


> For clarification, I did teach hunt seat riding, and most male riders I taught, including a old bf, were happiest wearing either a standard jock strap or a snug pair of briefs...while learning to post, ride in two point or jump, it's a wise precaution.


FWIW, that was one of the reasons I asked if English or Western. For that style of riding, it isn't required, but it also isn't a bad idea. Don't know if that is true of dressage riding as well.


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## bsms

Some good threads here:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-articles/men-horse-riding-71193/

http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/posting-while-trotting-male-riders-79035/


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## twh

Everyone seems to have done a nice job answering your questions.

One of the barns in my area has quite a few adult beginner/intermediates taking lessons. They do occasionally pair kids and adults, but everyone there knows and gets along with everyone else, so there never have been any issues.

Most barns I've dealt with do a private lesson off the bat with people they haven't seen ride. They evaluate your skills and see if you're ready to take a group lesson.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel

Just another reinforcing post..

- Expect lots of talking and explaining and a lot of hands on steps. You may feel a bit strange at first due to how simple the task they ask you to do is "brush the horse" "hold the rope" etc. but it's important to look and soak it all up with intrigue. And you may not do much in regards to riding for a few lessons until you are comfortable being around the horse. *Always seize the opportunity to ask questions!*

- Like other posters, I would definitely sit in during lessons and talk one on one with potential instructors to see if you guys go well together and if you like how they teach. As a beginner, it is SO important to find someone that encourages you more into the horse world (muahaha) than making you upset, frustrated, and generally ticked off that you abandon it. You want someone that explains how and WHY things are done, trust me it'll help throughout your horse career (I call it a career..) to know how a horse thinks or how they will respond to x, y, or z. 

- Regardless of how much you know about horses or whatnot, women LOVE that you're taking an interest and trying your best at something they really enjoy. I wish there were guys my age at my barn. There are a few older guys that are super awesome and range in all disciplines and experience. There's one man who owns a very fancy English horse and they go trail riding and does hunters and they're a great team. I really like riding with him! And another one who knows way less but bought a big ol' barrel horse whom he's trying to retrain (or sell..) and that horse's half brother whom he takes out for trails and desensitizes and ponies around. We've been on a couple trail rides (it's funny seeing the little guy with my big guy) And then the barn manager whom has the MOST experience (over 45 years) but I've never ridden with him. He's very knowledgeable though and offers a different perspective to what I've been told. I like him too =)

Just expect a lot of friendliness.. don't feel nervous as you aren't proving anything to anyone.. you're just having fun and enjoying horses 

Good luck finding a riding instructor!


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## mind

Wow, I can't thank everyone enough for the outstanding responses, they've alleviated my admittedly a silly concern about being in one of the few men looking to wanting to learn to ride at my age. 



Kelly22790 said:


> I'd love to have a man my age to ride with. Lucky for the women around you! Lol.
> 
> I suggest finding a male instructor (as long as they are good). I know of a male instructor/trainer around here that says he is so surrounded by women he wishes that he had a male "student" to work with. He's older, in his 60s, and he said that when he was younger (around our age....early 20s) he used to ride with ALL men and now it's all women.
> 
> My suggestion is to try and figure out what type of riding you would like to do and if you would like to do a sport/compete or if you just want to ride for fun. If you can find a GOOD male instructor....go for it. If not, there are plenty of female riders who are more than capable.
> 
> Good luck and enjoy


Kelly, this is one of my favourite responses to my questions, although I tend to prefer the company of women and have almost exclusively female friends, finding a male instructor is a great idea for the reasons you mentioned. I'll definitely be exploring this idea further, thank you!


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## Kelly22790

mind said:


> Wow, I can't thank everyone enough for the outstanding responses, they've alleviated my admittedly a silly concern about being in one of the few men looking to wanting to learn to ride at my age.
> 
> 
> 
> Kelly, this is one of my favourite responses to my questions, although I tend to prefer the company of women and have almost exclusively female friends, finding a male instructor is a great idea for the reasons you mentioned. I'll definitely be exploring this idea further, thank you!




No problem....I'm the same way but opposite! I have all male friends lol so I wish more of my male friends would ride. Keep us updated!


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## Jokerrosie

I think you are at a great age to begin, mature enough to understand the psychology of horses, and have the patience you will need. There is sooo much to learn about horses. I would encourage you to be a sponge and absorb alll you can from books, and videos etc. Some of the best out there are by Clinton Anderson, John Lyons, Pat Parelli, Lynn Palm. I think a good place to start is learing to do ground work with your horse . Go to some clinics if you can in your area. Also educate yourself on the equipment you will use, i.e. bits, what they do, when it's proper to use them. and just enjoy the learning experience. Take your time, be comfortable as you move ahead in your traiing. We all have to learn sometime, you will find that you never know it all, and will continue to learn forever. Happy Trail to you


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## smrobs

Howdy and welcome to the forum . I can't offer any suggestions on lessons, especially past what has already been covered so I will just add my post to welcome you to the crazy world of horses :lol:.

Being a female rider, and not that much older than you, I must say that I have a _tremendous_ amount of respect for you to go against the grain and get into it at this age when typical guys in our age group are more concerned with cars and video games and the like. It takes a lot of courage to take up a hobby which many people who don't get it may consider silly or childish. Good on you:clap:.

I would also love to hear of your progress.


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## Ian McDonald

Dude I've been there, I just started doing this a few years ago. If I could tell myself from back when I started a couple of things they'd be:

1. There's no substitute for experience. You'll learn stuff and understand it intellectually, but it takes longer for the body to learn it (muscle memory/balance/timing/etc). 

2. You can learn more about riding from a full day in a saddle going somewhere than in a month of lessons. 

3. Getting good at this is a lifelong process and you will never learn everything there is to know. So don't worry about stuff that doesn't make sense now. It'll come in its own time if you let your skill evolve naturally. 

Oh, and this may sound strange but sometimes I feel like I knew more BEFORE I ever studied. Back before I knew anything about horse training I just approached and rode horses kind of naturally and it seemed to work out better. I wish I hadn't bought so far into all the various 'training methods'. Mostly I got frustration out of them. So most of all if I were starting again I'd make it a point to say the hell with the training and to just enjoy riding. 

Good luck! You're ONE OF US NOW, LOL.


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## iridehorses

Ian McDonald said:


> So most of all if I were starting again I'd make it a point to say the hell with the training and to just enjoy riding.
> 
> Good luck! You're ONE OF US NOW, LOL.


I was with you until that last sentence. Lessons will give you the basis of proper horsemanship. It will come much faster if you have a solid basis instead of learning it the hard way or making mistakes then having to unlearn something to learn it again the right way.

Take lessons. You will enjoy it much better knowing you are working with your horse and not against him.


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## Cinder

I agree with iridehorses. Trail rides and such can certainly be a great way to learn, but it's important to have a good base first.

Oh, and:

When you end up riding, you'll be sore. It usually comes at least the day after and often times the day after the day after. Be prepared for that .

I am also curious to see if you have a preference between English and Western yet.


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## mind

Cinder said:


> I agree with iridehorses. Trail rides and such can certainly be a great way to learn, but it's important to have a good base first.
> 
> Oh, and:
> 
> When you end up riding, you'll be sore. It usually comes at least the day after and often times the day after the day after. Be prepared for that .
> 
> I am also curious to see if you have a preference between English and Western yet.


I'm glad Ian and iridehorses brought the subject of trail rides up, because that relates to another question I was planning on asking. In addition to private lessons to focus on building fundamental skills, there's a local barn that allows you to pay a flat monthly fee and in exchange you can go for as many guided trail ride as you like, potentially that would give me an option for inexpensive saddle time. Would it be better to focus on strictly taking lessons, or would trail rides we a good way of getting time on a horse and practice what I'm learning a bit?

I go to the gym often, hopefully that will help prevent me from being too sore. If I am though, being sore is a small price to pay for time with a horse 

For now everything I know about horses would fit in a few short sentences, and my only experience with the different riding styles is watching my cousin at rodeos and an acquaintance who does dressage compete once. I think English would be my preference, but I need to research and learn more before being able to saying anything with much certainty. 

It will still be a couple months before I'm able to get started taking lessons unfortunately, I wish my first lesson was tomorrow, but I need get a couple things out of the way before adding riding to my schedule. I'll definitely keep the thread updated as to how things progress, I'm also going to respond to some of the earlier posts once I have time... last exam of the semester is tomorrow


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## Skyseternalangel

Ian McDonald said:


> 2. You can learn more about riding from a full day in a saddle going somewhere than in a month of lessons.


General balance, yes... but actual riding maneuvers you should get some form of training whether it's a youtube video or lessons. 

But I agree with everything else  Once in the horse world, you ain't never going back!


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## MHFoundation Quarters

mind said:


> In addition to private lessons to focus on building fundamental skills, there's a local barn that allows you to pay a flat monthly fee and in exchange you can go for as many guided trail ride as you like, potentially that would give me an option for inexpensive saddle time. Would it be better to focus on strictly taking lessons, or would trail rides we a good way of getting time on a horse and practice what I'm learning a bit?


No reason not to do both. The only way to learn is a lot of time in the saddle. You can use what you learn in your lessons and apply it to your trail time. Good luck with whatever you decide!


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## Stakie

Well, I just had to read through the whole thread and I want to welcome you to the forum!

Both me and my Fiance, who is just a few years older then you are both beginners. He wants to go more into driving then riding but here are a few things I have found and I know he has too that are good tips.

Like others have said if you aren't use to the saddle, wear something that could protect or hold up your area. My fiance finds briefs are the best way to go.

Stretch stretch stretch! I can't stress this enough! Riding will work muscles you may not have known you have and if you pull it, it hurts! I try to do stretches every day just for that reason. Touch your toes, stretch you legs, arms and even neck. (My friend went out riding with me and she doesn't stretch. I think she pulled every muscle she possibly could!)

Like many others have said, finding the right instructor is key. There may be many in your area or there could only be a few but finding one that meshes well with you will have it's benefits. You want to be comfortable and confident and I know first hand if you don't find the right person you could feel the complete opposite! Don't settle and keep looking for the right person.

Anyway, happy riding!


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## xxBarry Godden

Mind, you've had lots of advice in a relatively short time. You'll have noticed that the ladies like to encourage men to join in 'their' sport. But don't be misled. Horse riding is not about sex or matters sexual. Eventually when the ladies stop considering you to be a vulnerable novice, you will be judged largely by how well you can sit a horse and can ride it.

You'll need at the beginning a good instructor whom you feel confident with - so have a lesson or two with more than one. Importantly you will also need to find a horse which you get on with. That special horse will forgive your clumsy hands, your unbalanced seat and the jerks to the mouth which you will unwittingly inflict. The horse will know from the moment you get near that you are a learner. If you are very lucky that same forgiving schoolmaster - or school mistress - will teach you how to sit. _I_t will pay you to develop a good relationship with the animal. The instructor will stand in the middle of the ring and will bark out instructions, but it is the horse between your thighs which will respond and, in doing so, teach you how to ride.

So stop wasting valuable riding time - get riding ASAP. You have need to make up for an obviously misspent youth playing some silly ball game.


PS It would be a good idea to buy yourself a couple of 'learn to ride' books.


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## outnabout

Welcome to the horse world! I would like to suggest that if you really begin to like riding you consider leasing a horse. When I began riding seriously as an adult I realized that lessons twice a week just didn't satisfy my desire to learn and be around the animals. So I leased a horse at a local barn. It was the best thing I ever did. I was able to ride as much as I wanted on the property at any time of the day or evening. I was at first required to have a couple of lessons a week, but the instructor started blowing off the lessons once she realized I pretty much knew what I was doing. I was out there 5-6 days a week, and as someone else said here, experience in the saddle is how you learn, not by watching videos and reading books. All of that other stuff is good, but only when you know what to watch/listen for. I met other riders and a couple of trainers who were great for advice and helped in so many ways.
Another advantage to leasing for me is that it cost almost as much as owning a horse, so I experienced the demands of ownership both financially and time-wise, as I also cared and fed the horse. 
Just something to keep in mind if you get serious about riding :wink:


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## mind

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> No reason not to do both. The only way to learn is a lot of time in the saddle. You can use what you learn in your lessons and apply it to your trail time. Good luck with whatever you decide!


Great, thank you!



outnabout said:


> Welcome to the horse world! I would like to suggest that if you really begin to like riding you consider leasing a horse. When I began riding seriously as an adult I realized that lessons twice a week just didn't satisfy my desire to learn and be around the animals. So I leased a horse at a local barn. It was the best thing I ever did. I was able to ride as much as I wanted on the property at any time of the day or evening. I was at first required to have a couple of lessons a week, but the instructor started blowing off the lessons once she realized I pretty much knew what I was doing. I was out there 5-6 days a week, and as someone else said here, experience in the saddle is how you learn, not by watching videos and reading books. All of that other stuff is good, but only when you know what to watch/listen for. I met other riders and a couple of trainers who were great for advice and helped in so many ways.
> Another advantage to leasing for me is that it cost almost as much as owning a horse, so I experienced the demands of ownership both financially and time-wise, as I also cared and fed the horse.
> Just something to keep in mind if you get serious about riding :wink:


Ah, that's very helpful advice, thanks!

As soon as I begin a weekly lesson, there's a good chance I'll feel completely unsatisfied with only getting to spend an hour a week with horses and want more. I also want saddle time outside of lessons, because I know that's will likely make a significant difference in my rate of progress. I'll do some more research on exactly what leasing entails.


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## Skyseternalangel

mind said:


> I'll do some more research on exactly what leasing entails.


Just to keep in mind, there are many different leasing options.. partial lease (usually 1-2 days) with no obligation to pay for anything of the horse's unless something happens whilst in your care.. then you foot the bill. So it'd be like those rental trail rides.. you pay to use the horse and that's it.

Then there's half lease where you ride usually 3+ days but are responsible for paying 1/2 board, 1/2 vet bills, 1/2 farrier *usually* because even those options have variants. It'd be kind of like renting your own horse for x amount of days per week, with a LOT more price tags involved.


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## mildot

jinxremoving said:


> This needs to be said because it's so blatant at times... but be aware that some ignorant people will question your sexuality if you ride English instead of Western.


I'm a 45 YO male new rider (started almost a year ago).

I'm at a level I would call beginner-intermediate, meaning I am not a beginner anymore (I can w/t/c in confindence both on the arena and on the trails, understand and can perform basic lateral work, can ride solid, mostly accurate school figures, can get a horse on the bit and using his back without forcing him, etc, etc), but I have still SO much more to learn. Jumping is next on my list of things to begin learning.

I ride english exclusively, and I am concentrating on learning how to use dressage to improve both my leased horse and myself.

Soooo.....I always ride in breeches and tall boots. I even occasionally stop at the supermarket/liquor store/pharmacy etc to pick up something or other on my way home from the barn wearing them.

I've never had anyone make a comment regarding my sexuality based on how I ride or how I dress to ride. Probably because I carry myself in a self confident, masculine way that doesn't invite unsolicited comments from strangers.

To the OP, please submit an after action report of your first lesson(s). We'd all like to know how that went.


----------



## Cinder

> I'm at a level I would call beginner-intermediate, meaning I am not a beginner anymore (I can w/t/c in confindence both on the arena and on the trails, understand and can perform basic lateral work, can ride solid, mostly accurate school figures, can get a horse on the bit and using his back without forcing him, etc, etc), but I have still SO much more to learn. Jumping is next on my list of things to begin learning.


You're more of an intermediate in my view. Especially if you have experience with difficult horses and once you begin to learn how to jump. Although you only started a year ago, so maybe advanced-beginner-1/3-intermediate? :lol:


----------



## jinxremoving

mildot said:


> I ride english exclusively, and I am concentrating on learning how to use dressage to improve both my leased horse and myself.
> 
> Soooo.....I always ride in breeches and tall boots. I even occasionally stop at the supermarket/liquor store/pharmacy etc to pick up something or other on my way home from the barn wearing them.
> 
> I've never had anyone make a comment regarding my sexuality based on how I ride or how I dress to ride. Probably because I carry myself in a self confident, masculine way that doesn't invite unsolicited comments from strangers.


I'm not sure how to respond to this, but I'll try because part of me feels like you're suggesting that if I carried myself in a more confident "manly" way that I wouldn't get stereotyped. For the record, I am not metrosexual or anything of that nature. I like to consider myself a mans man - in a straight way. A little bit white trash with my NASCAR loving and a little bit of a city slicker, but definitely 100% straight and I carry myself that way. I also kind of look like a thin lumberjack. 

When I first started riding a friend of mine mentioned how it's great to see a straight guy riding English. I never actually thought about male riders as being either straight or gay until that moment, it doesn't matter anyway to me what someone is as long as they love riding. However, I ended up asking at least a dozen of my female rider friends and every single one of them had the opinion that most, not all, but most male English riders are gay.

While you haven't been stereotyped, maybe because you have a wife or children so it's obvious, there is definitely a large percentage of people both riders and non-riders who look at male English riders as possibly being gay. It's very strange to me, because I'm not sure where the stereotype originated from... most of the Grand Prix level riders have girlfriends and wives and families, but it does exist regardless of how the man carries himself.


----------



## mildot

jinxremoving said:


> I'm not sure how to respond to this, but I'll try because part of me feels like you're suggesting that if I carried myself in a more confident "manly" way that I wouldn't get stereotyped.


Wasn't implying that at all and I apologize if it appeared that way. 



jinxremoving said:


> I ended up asking at least a dozen of my female rider friends and every single one of them had the opinion that most, not all, but most male English riders are gay.


I certainly haven't had that experience.



jinxremoving said:


> there is definitely a large percentage of people both riders and non-riders who look at male English riders as possibly being gay. It's very strange to me, because I'm not sure where the stereotype originated from... most of the Grand Prix level riders have girlfriends and wives and families, but it does exist regardless of how the man carries himself.


Very strange to me too.


----------



## mildot

Cinder said:


> You're more of an intermediate in my view. Especially if you have experience with difficult horses and once you begin to learn how to jump. Although you only started a year ago, so maybe advanced-beginner-1/3-intermediate? :lol:


I'm just happy I don't fall off nearly as often....


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## bsms

jinxremoving said:


> ...While you haven't been stereotyped, maybe because you have a wife or children so it's obvious, there is definitely a large percentage of people both riders and non-riders who look at male English riders as possibly being gay. It's very strange to me, because I'm not sure where the stereotype originated from...


I suspect it is from English riders who worry about appearance and dress, and perhaps movie stereotypes. I've drifted further and further west in my riding, but my English riding is/was done in a T-shirt, jeans and cowboy boots. No one asked about my sexuality. 

Of course, at 53 & with bifocals, maybe no one CARES about my sexuality!  Even the 50+ year old women don't care... :evil:










Of course, one can always compromise and go Australian-style...feels English, but looks very...stocky? Or is it just ME that is a bit "stocky"?


----------



## Spyder

bsms said:


> No need to wear a cup, and none that I know of to wear a jock strap, BTW.



Best off to NOT wear anything. Stiffen Peters got all the attention he wanted by letting the jewels hang loose.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

:happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance:


----------



## bsms

Spyder said:


> ...Stiffen Peters got all the attention he wanted by letting the jewels hang loose...


If I did that, the only attention I would garner would be from paramedics. Tighty whities and jeans suffice. Going commando? I whimper with pain at the thought. :wink:

Although, if that is the fellow in a well known picture, "loose" doesn't really describe the situation.


----------



## PaintHorseMares

mind said:


> I'm glad Ian and iridehorses brought the subject of trail rides up, because that relates to another question I was planning on asking. In addition to private lessons to focus on building fundamental skills, there's a local barn that allows you to pay a flat monthly fee and in exchange you can go for as many guided trail ride as you like, potentially that would give me an option for inexpensive saddle time. Would it be better to focus on strictly taking lessons, or would trail rides we a good way of getting time on a horse and practice what I'm learning a bit?


I would certainly encourage you to do both. For those of us that love the open spaces and trails, we use the ring to teach/practice the basics and provide an contained environment with reduced distractions for both the rider and the horse, (semi) jokingly to get someone to the point that they won't kill themselves. Outside the ring, though, is the real world, where every ride is different and there is nothing more pleasurable to me than getting on your horse, looking around, and deciding "where should _we_ explore today?" Whatever you decide, set aside some fun, relaxing saddle time where you're not concentrating on all the details from your lessons. I've met many people that lost their desire to ride because they turned it into _work_... there is a time to learn, and a time to enjoy.



> I go to the gym often, hopefully that will help prevent me from being too sore. If I am though, being sore is a small price to pay for time with a horse


Riding is about balance, and balance comes from core muscle strength. If you have that, any soreness will be short lived.

Good luck, enjoy, and be safe.


----------



## Spyder

bsms said:


> Although, if that is the fellow in a well known picture, "loose" doesn't really describe the situation.



True .... he sure *pointed* male riders into a new fashion direction! :rofl:


----------



## mildot

mind said:


> I go to the gym often, hopefully that will help prevent me from being too sore. If I am though, being sore is a small price to pay for time with a horse


You better start working on a LOT of flexibility of your hip joints and groin muscles/ligaments.

Granted, I'm 20+ years older but when I started riding the muscular soreness around my hip joints and groin were almost too much.

But it gets much better with time on the saddle. And LOTS of pre and post ride stretching.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

Mind - another issue which has not been mentioned is the size and fit of the English saddle. Most men need at least a 17.5 inch saddle whereas a slim woman can sit comfortably on a 16.5 inch. I did once use an 18inch saddle 

Some modern saddles rise up towards the pommel which again gives problems to the male anatomy. A man usually needs a flat topped saddle rather than a deep saddle.

A woman when riding presses her crutch down and tries to sit flat on the saddle in the so called '3 point seat'. An inexperienced novice male rider who still bounces in the seat, especially at the sitting trot, will find this painful - until his body learns the knack of not crushing his male parts. 

If you go to a riding centre where lots of different young women are taught on the horse regularly allocated to you, you may find that the saddle fits the horse well enough but it feels uncomfortable for you.

Until you eventually buy your own horse and a saddle which fits the horse and which feels comfortable to you, you may have to come to terms with the problem. To solve the problem you'll then put more weight on the stirrup bars than a young woman might when riding the same horse in the same saddle. You might be better off using a riding centre which favours jumping rather than dressage. The dressage seat tends to be deeper.

A British saddler, will select a saddle which fits well the shape of the horse's back and then once the saddle has been chosen, the saddler will ask the regular rider to check it out for comfort at all paces. Sometimes it is found that the saddle selected suits a female rider but not a male. 

A saddle which is not comfortable to the rider can be made more acceptable by the use of a saddle pad - but if the saddle is too short then you'll need either a different saddle or a horse with a longer back and a longer saddle.

As I wrote before, the essential first step for a novice male rider is to learn how to adopt the correct seating position and if the saddle doesn't suit, that will prove to be difficult.

Yes, you should find a school which employs an instructor you feel comfortble with, but that school must also have a school master horse on which you feel comfortable to ride - and that includes the saddle.


----------



## bsms

FWIW...for beginning riding, I would recommend starting western.

I started at 50, after 40 years of jogging. It wasn't so much that my LEGS were tight, although they were. The problem in riding was that my HIPS and LOWER BACK were very tight. That tightness helped keep me healthy during 40 years of jogging, but it made it very hard to ride well.

I suspect most men, even in their 20s, have tighter hips than most women.

Western riding is more forgiving of tight hips. Many western saddles will have your feet about 6" forward of the classic "shoulder / hip / heel" vertical line. That is called a "chair seat", and is looked down upon by English riding. However, it has some advantages:

1 - If your hips are tight, you can ride in the dreaded 'chair seat' with a loose leg. IMHO, a loose leg is more desirable than perfect vertical alignment. So, if you hips are tight, a chair seat will work better than the more vertical seat.

2 - The dreaded chair seat makes it easy to keep your heels down. As you sit in your chair facing your computer, put your heel in alignment with your hip. Try to raise your toe. I cannot. Now move your heel under your knee. Try to raise your toe. Easy.

Heel down is not nirvana either. A loose leg is much better than heels down - but a chair seat allows those of us with tight bodies to have both.

Another reason for learning western first is your back.

Sitting in your chair, sit tall and straight. I've had instructors, and read well respected books, that tell you to imagine an angel is pulling your shoulders up into the sky.

If you are like me, you have just locked your lower back and made good riding almost impossible.

When western instructors shout, "Get on your seat pockets!", they don't mean lean back. They may think they do, because most western instructors, like most English instructors, don't know why things work. And I've read a lot of criticism by English riders who think it means lean back and shift your weight to the horse's rear - which is also incorrect.

What the western rider needs to do to get "on his seat pockets" - the lower edge of jeans pockets - is to stay vertical, but unlock your lower back and allow your hips to settle. Sitting tall rotates your hips forward. Settling - staying vertical but bringing your shoulders down - will result in your hips rotating a bit back...maybe even onto your pocket edge. But in the process, it will also unlock your lower back - and you cannot ride well with a locked back. Locked back = bounce.

Experienced riders can unlock their lower back and still have their hips rotated to a more forward position. That is nice, but hula dancers can also unlock their hips in ways that mine just will not follow!

That is one of the reasons I think western riding is more forgiving for a beginning adult. When your lower back unlocks, you can accept a sitting trot. If you can sit the trot well, you can probably pick up cantering easy. If you can canter, then galloping is easy.

Unfortunately, most riding instructors don't know or do not understand what I've just written. Most instructors start as young kids, when flexibility and looseness is easy. Most are also females, with more flexible hips and backs than most men. Most continue riding, and they know what is 'ideal' - but they know what is ideal for a loose, flexible body conditioned by lots of hours on a horse. They have no idea about the trade-offs involved in an adult learning to ride.

If/when your body loosens up from western riding, then English riding is relatively easy to learn. It requires more balance than beginning western riding, but 4-6 months of western instruction should have you comfortable with the basics, and loose enough - if taught well - to adjust to riding English without as many trade-offs as I mentioned above. Or, if you enjoy it, you could continue western. Western is easier for an adult to start with, but both disciplines can provide you with a lifetime of learning. Good western riding is as demanding as good English riding, although in somewhat different ways.

Sorry for the long rant, but Barry Godden's post got me to thinking about how saddles can impact how we learn - and my experience is that most instructors don't know much about how an adult body impacts learning.


----------



## mind

Skyseternalangel said:


> Just to keep in mind, there are many different leasing options.. partial lease (usually 1-2 days) with no obligation to pay for anything of the horse's unless something happens whilst in your care.. then you foot the bill. So it'd be like those rental trail rides.. you pay to use the horse and that's it.
> 
> Then there's half lease where you ride usually 3+ days but are responsible for paying 1/2 board, 1/2 vet bills, 1/2 farrier *usually* because even those options have variants. It'd be kind of like renting your own horse for x amount of days per week, with a LOT more price tags involved.


Thank you, that is the exact information I needed.

I did some searching and familiarized myself with the general concepts of leasing a horse, but it's nice to have it laid out so clearly. 



mildot said:


> I'm a 45 YO male new rider (started almost a year ago).
> 
> I'm at a level I would call beginner-intermediate, meaning I am not a beginner anymore (I can w/t/c in confindence both on the arena and on the trails, understand and can perform basic lateral work, can ride solid, mostly accurate school figures, can get a horse on the bit and using his back without forcing him, etc, etc), but I have still SO much more to learn. Jumping is next on my list of things to begin learning.
> 
> I ride english exclusively, and I am concentrating on learning how to use dressage to improve both my leased horse and myself.
> ...
> 
> To the OP, please submit an after action report of your first lesson(s). We'd all like to know how that went.


To transition from a beginner to almost intermediate level within a year sounds like a very good rate of progress, correct me if I'm wrong. Knowing that it's possible to learn that much in a year is great motivation. Would you mind sharing how often you take lessons, what else you do for practice?

I'll definitely update the thread with how my first lesson goes, it will be a couple months until that can happen though. 



jinxremoving said:


> I'm not sure how to respond to this, but I'll try because part of me feels like you're suggesting that if I carried myself in a more confident "manly" way that I wouldn't get stereotyped. For the record, I am not metrosexual or anything of that nature. I like to consider myself a mans man - in a straight way. A little bit white trash with my NASCAR loving and a little bit of a city slicker, but definitely 100% straight and I carry myself that way. I also kind of look like a thin lumberjack.
> 
> When I first started riding a friend of mine mentioned how it's great to see a straight guy riding English. I never actually thought about male riders as being either straight or gay until that moment, it doesn't matter anyway to me what someone is as long as they love riding. However, I ended up asking at least a dozen of my female rider friends and every single one of them had the opinion that most, not all, but most male English riders are gay.
> 
> While you haven't been stereotyped, maybe because you have a wife or children so it's obvious, there is definitely a large percentage of people both riders and non-riders who look at male English riders as possibly being gay. It's very strange to me, because I'm not sure where the stereotype originated from... most of the Grand Prix level riders have girlfriends and wives and families, but it does exist regardless of how the man carries himself.


I agree, age may be a factor in mildot not having is sexuality questioned, I've had mine questioned before for pointless reasons.

Although the entire stereotype that men riding english or generally engaging in any activity dominated by women are gay is absolutely ridiculous, it's an inescapable reality for some of us I guess. I just laugh when it happens.



PaintHorseMares said:


> I would certainly encourage you to do both. For those of us that love the open spaces and trails, we use the ring to teach/practice the basics and provide an contained environment with reduced distractions for both the rider and the horse, (semi) jokingly to get someone to the point that they won't kill themselves. Outside the ring, though, is the real world, where every ride is different and there is nothing more pleasurable to me than getting on your horse, looking around, and deciding "where should _we_ explore today?" Whatever you decide, set aside some fun, relaxing saddle time where you're not concentrating on all the details from your lessons. I've met many people that lost their desire to ride because they turned it into _work_... there is a time to learn, and a time to enjoy.
> 
> Riding is about balance, and balance comes from core muscle strength. If you have that, any soreness will be short lived.
> 
> Good luck, enjoy, and be safe.


Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I can see how lessons being the only horse time would make something that's supposed to be pleasurable feel like work. 

My core strength is pretty good I think, but I'll make good use the time leading up to starting lessons and work those muscles even more.



Barry Godden said:


> Mind - another issue which has not been mentioned is the size and fit of the English saddle. Most men need at least a 17.5 inch saddle whereas a slim woman can sit comfortably on a 16.5 inch. I did once use an 18inch saddle
> 
> Some modern saddles rise up towards the pommel which again gives problems to the male anatomy. A man usually needs a flat topped saddle rather than a deep saddle.
> 
> A woman when riding presses her crutch down and tries to sit flat on the saddle in the so called '3 point seat'. An inexperienced novice male rider who still bounces in the seat, especially at the sitting trot, will find this painful - until his body learns the knack of not crushing his male parts.
> 
> If you go to a riding centre where lots of different young women are taught on the horse regularly allocated to you, you may find that the saddle fits the horse well enough but it feels uncomfortable for you.
> 
> Until you eventually buy your own horse and a saddle which fits the horse and which feels comfortable to you, you may have to come to terms with the problem. To solve the problem you'll then put more weight on the stirrup bars than a young woman might when riding the same horse in the same saddle. You might be better off using a riding centre which favours jumping rather than dressage. The dressage seat tends to be deeper.
> 
> A British saddler, will select a saddle which fits well the shape of the horse's back and then once the saddle has been chosen, the saddler will ask the regular rider to check it out for comfort at all paces. Sometimes it is found that the saddle selected suits a female rider but not a male.
> 
> A saddle which is not comfortable to the rider can be made more acceptable by the use of a saddle pad - but if the saddle is too short then you'll need either a different saddle or a horse with a longer back and a longer saddle.
> 
> As I wrote before, the essential first step for a novice male rider is to learn how to adopt the correct seating position and if the saddle doesn't suit, that will prove to be difficult.
> 
> Yes, you should find a school which employs an instructor you feel comfortble with, but that school must also have a school master horse on which you feel comfortable to ride - and that includes the saddle.


Very, very good information, I really appreciate you taking the time to tell me that, thank you.


----------



## bsms

mind said:


> ...My core strength is pretty good I think, but I'll make good use the time leading up to starting lessons and work those muscles even more...


Core strength tends to become a factor as you refine your riding. Take sitting the trot - trotting on a horse without posting - as an example.

If you have 'heavy' relaxed legs, that dead weight will help pull you into the saddle. Bracing against the stirrups can help even out the bounce, but in the long term, it prevents you from accepting the horse's motion. Dead weight below your hip helps hold the hips down.

A relaxed lower back will help accept the horse's motion, and absorb it.

Those two things by themselves will allow most people to sit the trot. Then you can add posting, to take some of the pressure off the horse's back, and you can add using some firmness in your tummy to help control your body as it absorbs the horse's motion during the sitting trot.

By combining a loose leg with a relaxed back, my daughter-in-law was sitting the trot...mmm, well, OK...during her first lesson. 

But because I had tight hips, tight back, and braced against the stirrups, I bounced like crazy for the first TWO YEARS! It didn't help that when I took about 3 months of lessons in my 20s (30 years earlier), the instruction focused on counter productive (for a new rider) things like "Toes forward" (which with my body meant twisting my knees into the horse, creating a pivot point that I could bounce really high from!:evil, or "Heels down!" (which I tried to do by forcing my heel down, creating tightness all the way from my hip to my heel, which meant I could bounce from the stirrup up :evil.

Now, on her next couple of lessons, my daughter-in-law needed to use her core to improve her posture while trotting. And after a half dozen lessons, she was ahead of where I spent several years getting - but then, most of what I was taught early on (or read about in books) was counter-productive. It wasn't WRONG, but it was trying to get me to do things my body wasn't ready to do. Heels down is good, but not if you do it by shoving them down with your leg muscles...


----------



## Skyseternalangel

mind said:


> Thank you, that is the exact information I needed.
> 
> I did some searching and familiarized myself with the general concepts of leasing a horse, but it's nice to have it laid out so clearly.
> 
> 
> 
> To transition from a beginner to almost intermediate level within a year sounds like a very good rate of progress, correct me if I'm wrong. Knowing that it's possible to learn that much in a year is great motivation. Would you mind sharing how often you take lessons, what else you do for practice?
> 
> I'll definitely update the thread with how my first lesson goes, it will be a couple months until that can happen though.


You're welcome 

Even though the second part wasn't addressed to me, the more you practice (in a chair... in your mind, on a horse, on the ground) the more progress you make. You can work on your legs and balance OFF of the horse easily by sitting on a medicine/yoga/exercise ball instead of a chair. You can work on steering by tying or looping a bathrobe tie around a chair and work on keeping your heels down and your position if you do squats with a chair (behind you so when you squat down, you can pretend you're on a horse [yes lame I know..] and without a chair to strengthen all of your leg muscles.. and even more so if you do it with tippy toes and with feet flat on the floor but toes flexed. 

But if you're lucky enough to have a really good memory for how something FELT like the horses' walk, or what happened when you added more pressure to the one rein.. or how the stiffer brush worked versus the softer brush, you just need to sleep on it and things will start clicker faster. And the next time you're around the horse or on the horse, you'll have a better idea of what it FEELS like when you're doing it correctly.

I went from beginning beginner.. to an intermediate in about 8 months? And that's with a big move thrown into the mix where I couldn't ride for about 6 weeks.

It's possible to do it, so give it your all


----------



## Cinder

Yes, if you'd like exercises to do until you can ride a horse the Complete Horse Riding Manual by William Micklem has a bunch of exercises. What Sky said is also a good way to go about things without having to pick up a book and follow it's directions during the exercise (which annoys me).


----------



## mildot

This thread is turning into a really good discussion.

Mind:
I began riding back in January of this year at the same barn my daughter lessons in. The instructor there and I never clicked and I found her method of instruction (constant stream of shouted non-stop instructions) very off-putting. Still I stuck with it because a) my daughter likes it there b) it's close to home and c) I didn't know any better.

Then in March I had a nasty fall that severely injured my lower back and put me out of riding for nearly two months. During that time off I decided to look for some place else to ride. I found a nearby barn that specializes in quarter horses and western pleasure riding but will do english lessons on the flat. I talked to the owner/instructor at length, discussed what had happened to me prior and we both agreed that I should start from scratch under her on one of her horses that she dedicated for hunter under saddle lessons. I started there in August and for the next two months made really good progress riding once a week and occasionally twice a week.

I wanted to ride more often but her schedule did not allow it so I began looking for another place where I could ride once a week to complement.

So then in early October I started riding at yet another barn, this one where the emphasis is more on dressage. This new instructor really took the time to explain the use of aids in a detail that I had never had before and also explained the WHY (or effect) of aids on the horse to make him supple, relaxed, obedient, and eventually stronger and better. The more I read about *classical* dressage the more I wanted to learn and do so I stopped going to the western barn.

At this dressage school, I began riding lessons twice weekly. After about a month there, the opportunity came up for a free half lease (I pay 1/2 of the boarding expense, owner takes care of everything else) on a QH mare and I took it. Since mid October I've been riding an average of four times a week. Usually one 1 hr lesson a week, two one-hour rides by myself in which I school the subjects of that week's lesson, and on weekends either more training rides or, if the weather and footing are OK, I'll take Calypso out on the property's trail network with other riders and school her out there and have some fun at the same time. 

So in essence, progress accelerated once I found a barn where the instructor and I clicked and communicated, where their teaching methods suited me, and when I started riding more than once a week.

Let me add my $.02 to the start western vs english debate.

While bsms has articulated well why starting western worked really well for him, let me be an example of the opposite. 

My sum total of seat time in western saddles is quite short. This year I've put in close to 70 hours on horseback. Out of those, probably two were on western tack. Yet once I found a supportive instructor and a saddle that did not pitch me forward out of balance, my progress took off. Add to that lots of pre-ride stretching and I did not find it too hard to learn to ride english.

It may be that riding in an english saddle requires slightly better balance at the beginning than riding in western tack. However, just like there are multiple types of western saddles (roping, ranch, trail, pleasure, endurance) there are multiple types of english saddles (close contact, jumping, eventing/all purpose, dressage). And even with those categories, there all kinds of design variations that affect how easy it is for a particular rider to find his center on it. For example, dressage saddles that follow the german ideals will have a higher cantle and pommel, and a deeper seat, than dressage saddles that follow british or french design ideals.

In my experience, it is much easier to learn to ride in a dressage saddle than it is to do so using a pure jumping/close contact saddle. The more upright upper body position, deeper seat, and straighter leg position of the dressage saddle makes it so.

On the subject of saddles also, Barry Golden's posts are excellent.

Also, bsms has a great grasp of the biomechanics that go into riding.


----------



## jinxremoving

Cinder said:


> Yes, if you'd like exercises to do until you can ride a horse the Complete Horse Riding Manual by William Micklem has a bunch of exercises. What Sky said is also a good way to go about things without having to pick up a book and follow it's directions during the exercise (which annoys me).


That is a great book! I have it sitting next to me, and it has some of the best illustrations I have ever seen in a horse book.

Amazon.com: Complete Horse Riding Manual (0635517093384): William Micklem: Books


----------



## bsms

mildot said:


> ... However, just like there are multiple types of western saddles (roping, ranch, trail, pleasure, endurance) there are multiple types of english saddles (close contact, jumping, eventing/all purpose, dressage). And even with those categories, there all kinds of design variations that affect how easy it is for a particular rider to find his center on it. For example, dressage saddles that follow the german ideals will have a higher cantle and pommel, and a deeper seat, than dressage saddles that follow british or french design ideals.
> 
> In my experience, it is much easier to learn to ride in a dressage saddle than it is to do so using a pure jumping/close contact saddle. The more upright upper body position, deeper seat, and straighter leg position of the dressage saddle makes it so...


That makes sense. I probably should have added that I have never tried a dressage saddle or dressage instruction. 

A good instructor who knows how to explain things and who clicks with your learning probably outweighs any other factor in learning fast. The tough part can be FINDING that right instructor...which is why you shouldn't feel locked in to lessons at one place or one instructor. 

I spent 25 years in the military. I don't need to have anyone yelling at me again...:lol:


----------



## Cinder

Personally, I found that it was harder for me to learn English at first and it forced me into a more correct position while Western encouraged my worst bad habits. I like a more all-purpose saddle type though dressage saddles are really comfortable to ride in as well.


----------



## maura

bsms,

If you're ever on the East Coast, please, please come visit me. I cringe when I read your stories of your initial instruction and would love to teach you a couple of lessons. 

I do like your description of the process and the problems faced by older riders, very accurate and very helpful. 

To the OP; going to the gym will only help up to a certain point. The biggest problem is that most other sports emphasize pointing your toe and using the muscles that extend the leg; riding uses the opposing set of muscles as you point your heel. The biggest thing you can do to help yourself out before starting lessons is to do some rider stretchs and stretch your Achilles tendon. 
Do this by placing the balls of your feet on a step or thick book and allowing weight to sink in your heels, feeling the stretch at the lower back of your calf, hold for a count of 3 - 5 seconds. Step off the step and rotate you ankle, shake your foot and repeat. Work up to 10 reps of up to 10 seconds. As you do the stretchs, you should find that you're a little more flexible and that the stretch is easier. 

As bsms described so well, a lot of middling riding instructing consists of repeating "Heels down!" and "Sit up straight!" which is very counter productive. Most earnest eager to please students then *force* the heel down, effectively locking all the joints of the leg and making them stiff riders unable to feel the horse's motion. But in order to stretch down and have weight in your heel without forcing it, you need to have some stretch/flexibilty in your Achilles tendon. Just about every other sport tightens that tendon.


----------



## Cinder

> As bsms described so well, a lot of middling riding instructing consists of repeating "Heels down!" and "Sit up straight!" which is very counter productive. Most earnest eager to please students then *force* the heel down, effectively locking all the joints of the leg and making them stiff riders unable to feel the horse's motion. But in order to stretch down and have weight in your heel without forcing it, you need to have some stretch/flexibilty in your Achilles tendon. Just about every other sport tightens that tendon.


This is very true. My first instructors just loved shouting "heels down" at us every few minutes and it just caused me to have a very odd looking position with my heels level. Once I learned to relax a bit more and learned how riding mechanics worked (much in thanks to this forum) my heels just automatically started going down because my achilles tendon was now flexible.


----------



## Skyseternalangel

mildot said:


> So then in early October I started riding at yet another barn, this one where the emphasis is more on dressage. This new instructor really took the time to explain the use of aids in a detail that I had never had before and also explained the WHY (or effect) of aids on the horse to make him supple, relaxed, obedient, and eventually stronger and better. The more I read about *classical* dressage the more I wanted to learn and do so I stopped going to the western barn.
> 
> At this dressage school, I began riding lessons twice weekly. After about a month there, the opportunity came up for a free half lease (I pay 1/2 of the boarding expense, owner takes care of everything else) on a QH mare and I took it. Since mid October I've been riding an average of four times a week. Usually one 1 hr lesson a week, two one-hour rides by myself in which I school the subjects of that week's lesson, and on weekends either more training rides or, if the weather and footing are OK, I'll take Calypso out on the property's trail network with other riders and school her out there and have some fun at the same time.
> 
> So in essence, progress accelerated once I found a barn where the instructor and I clicked and communicated, where their teaching methods suited me, and when I started riding more than once a week.
> 
> My sum total of seat time in western saddles is quite short. This year I've put in close to 70 hours on horseback. Out of those, probably two were on western tack. Yet once I found a supportive instructor and a saddle that did not pitch me forward out of balance, my progress took off. Add to that lots of pre-ride stretching and I did not find it too hard to learn to ride english.
> 
> It may be that riding in an english saddle requires slightly better balance at the beginning than riding in western tack. However, just like there are multiple types of western saddles (roping, ranch, trail, pleasure, endurance) there are multiple types of english saddles (close contact, jumping, eventing/all purpose, dressage). And even with those categories, there all kinds of design variations that affect how easy it is for a particular rider to find his center on it. For example, dressage saddles that follow the german ideals will have a higher cantle and pommel, and a deeper seat, than dressage saddles that follow british or french design ideals.
> 
> *In my experience, it is much easier to learn to ride in a dressage saddle than it is to do so using a pure jumping/close contact saddle. The more upright upper body position, deeper seat, and straighter leg position of the dressage saddle makes it so.*


Yes yes yes and more yes! I always tell my friends, dressage is the basic fundamentals of riding. You will develop balance and connection with your horse, even if you aren't competing (like this chickadee right here )

It is so important to develop that deep seat and balance as it is crucial in every equestrian discipline at one point or another. Also all the lateral work you learn will branch off into disciplines like reining/cutting, pleasure riding both english and western, jumping, hunters (<3), or even activities like going on a trail ride!



bsms said:


> A good instructor who knows how to explain things and who clicks with your learning probably outweighs any other factor in learning fast. The tough part can be FINDING that right instructor...which is why you shouldn't feel locked in to lessons at one place or one instructor.


I agree completely.. there's good instruction where you are 'getting it' every 4-7+ lessons, and then there's WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL OF MY LIFE?!?! Instruction where you and your horse begin to accomplish those little tasks like sitting trot or trotting a perfect circle or doing a perfect serpentine.. within 2-4 lessons.. or even 1 lesson!

Yeah I'm pretty fresh into the horse world, but I have to say when you _find the instructor that works best with your learning style, you will blossom! _In any discipline.. but I still think it's very beneficial to have dressage under your belt. 



maura said:


> bsms,
> 
> If you're ever on the East Coast, please, please come visit me. I cringe when I read your stories of your initial instruction and would love to teach you a couple of lessons.


Seriously, I cringe too.. but I know what you mean. I had some pretty interesting riding instructor experiences.. the important concept to keep in mind is when it starts to feel off... leave. You can find a riding instructor that communicates everything with you so much better.. surprisingly easy if you do your research!



Cinder said:


> This is very true. My first instructors just loved shouting "heels down" at us every few minutes and it just caused me to have a very odd looking position with my heels level. Once I learned to relax a bit more and learned how riding mechanics worked (much in thanks to this forum) my heels just automatically started going down because my achilles tendon was now flexible.


Yep! Instead of shouting heels down or toes up.. I used to tell my students "remember to stretch down into the horse!" or "power leg!" 

I miss teaching..


----------



## mildot

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT

Forget to include stretches that stretch your thigh, abdominal, and lumbar muscles and free up your hip joints.

If those areas of your body are tight and tense, it won't matter how stretchy your achilles tendons are, weight will never make it down to your feet.


----------



## mildot

Skyseternalangel said:


> I always tell my friends, dressage is the basic fundamentals of riding. You will develop balance and connection with your horse, even if you aren't competing (like this chickadee right here )
> 
> It is so important to develop that deep seat and balance as it is crucial in every equestrian discipline at one point or another. Also all the lateral work you learn will branch off into disciplines like reining/cutting, pleasure riding both english and western, jumping, hunters (<3), or even activities like going on a trail ride!


Agreed. That is why I like dressage as well.

Fact is, the word "dressage" simply means "training" or "to train" in French. The principle of dressage as a method to train horse and rider go back to ancient Greece where Xenephon laid out the first written methods of training horse and rider for battle. Those methods have been refined and proven over centuries and codified into what is known today as classical dressage.

This is what you can do with a horse that is highly trained using classical methods:


----------



## maura

Well, I don't have the bias towards either starting in dressage or starting western, because that wasn't my experience. I started out riding hunt seat, and though I pursued a lot of other disciplines later, I think that the American system of forward riding is the best foundation and one that can lead anywhere you want to take it. My experience = my bias, your mileage may vary. 

The more important point is that you may have to look a little while to find good quality instruction. Most of my early instruction consisted of riding in a circle around an instructor being told what I was doing wrong (Heels down! Sit up straight! Don't look down! More leg! Soften your hands!) and I was somehow expected magically to synthesize that into a image of correct riding. I was 19 or 20 before I found an instructor who could actually *teach* - explain how the horse moved, how you could influence the horse, provided a positive model, and then broke it down to specific exercises to help you get there. 

So if the instruction isn't clear and constructive, or you don't get decent answers to reasonable questioins, move on and keep looking. Good instruction is organized, systematic and sequential. Good instructors set goals and expectations and have lesson plans.


----------



## bsms

maura said:


> bsms,
> 
> If you're ever on the East Coast, please, please come visit me. I cringe when I read your stories of your initial instruction and would love to teach you a couple of lessons...


If I *EVER* head east, I'm going to take you up on that! I'd love to have instruction in hunt seat and jumping by someone who is good at it. Although I'm primarily now a 'western rider', I continue to think eventing is the pinnacle of riding. I like watching and reading about steeplechases. And while I own 5 saddles, my favorite is my jump saddle...but a green rider on a nervous horse in a jump saddle wearing a ball cap and with no instruction was just SOOOOOO wrong! :shock:



maura said:


> Well, I don't have the bias towards either starting in dressage or starting western, because that wasn't my experience. I started out riding hunt seat, and though I pursued a lot of other disciplines later, I think that the American system of forward riding is the best foundation and one that can lead anywhere you want to take it. My experience = my bias, your mileage may vary...
> 
> ...So if the instruction isn't clear and constructive, or you don't get decent answers to reasonable questions, move on and keep looking. Good instruction is organized, systematic and sequential. Good instructors set goals and expectations and have lesson plans.


I probably need to repeat for emphasis that my advice is based on being a 50 year old male with very stiff legs and hips trying to learn something incredibly difficult for me: to sit on a horse.

Even today, after 4 years, the first 5-10 minutes of every ride starts, for me, with trying to spread my knees, trying to stretch my legs, and trying to unlock my back.

If someone is a very flexible and fearless 12 year old, my advice may not apply. I am certain someone starting with good flexibility and good instruction can learn how to ride with a forward seat fast and well. My favorite book on riding remains the US Cavalry manual from the 40s.

But the older and stiffer one is, the harder it is to start riding in a reasonably decent position. Even now, my body finds it almost impossible to have my heels under my hip AND my heels down instead of my toes. By the time my heel is under my hip, my foot look like I'm a ballerina...and believe me, it is ONLY my foot that does, unless there are some fat, bifocal wearing ballerinas somewhere.

I just got back from watching my wife's third lesson in riding. She is 54 and has physical therapy for a stiff neck. The instructor kept everything relaxed, and told her that if riding made any of her joints sore, then there was a problem they needed to discuss. She did some trotting on her own today, sitting the trot. At the end, she was surprised an hour had already passed. 

That doesn't mean she couldn't learn from a dressage instructor, or that she couldn't learn from a GOOD jump instructor. But I think if she gets a good base of 12-20 lessons riding relaxed in a western seat, she could then easily transition to another style. And yes, YMMV! I think most older riders start with more stiffness and nervousness, and we need to learn to relax and have fun first. It makes me jealous of kids - they don't need lessons in having fun on a horse!


----------



## xxBarry Godden

In discussin we have gone way beyond the needs or comprehension of Mind - a novice to the magnificent sport of horse riding. Hopefully he is setting out on his riding career but we know that he has much to learn - perhaps more than he realizes. It doesn't matter whether he chooses to ride Western or English - the horse doesn't really care as long as it has confidence in the rider's ability not to guide the pair into trouble. In horse riding, matters of sexuality and image are irrelevant diversions.

One day hopefully Mind will go out on a ride on a horse on which he feels comfortable. Maybe it will be amongst a group of other competent riders, perhaps on a hunt or a special trail ride. Gradually the pace of the ride will speed up, the terrain will become more uneven, but the pair of them will fly. There will be one or two little incidents when together they both push the limits but all that was necessary to come through was a little nudge here, a lean there or a squeeze. The wind will sing in the ears. Communication between horse and rider will be complete. 

Eventually at the end of the day, the pair will reach home, probably a little tired, perhaps even at the amble. Both horse and rider will be reluctant to bring the ride to a close. Both will feel the exhilaration from a day well spent. The rider will slip off the back of the horse and go and give the neck of the animal a squeeze so as to say: "Thank you for a marvellous day".

Such rides don't happen often. Everything needs to come together on the day But snippets of the ride will stay in the memory for years, making all the practice, the work, the patience and the expense worthwhile. 

I remember such a ride with the local hunt up on the high moors on a magnificent, fit, clever, sure footed, genuine horse named William. It was a very special day of riding, one well worth waiting for. I have had other memorable days of riding but that one day was very, very special. Horse and rider had ridden hard as one being.

William wasn't even my own horse but what an animal. Truly he was a master horse with whom I had bonded utterly. There was no need for me to speak to William, even at the gallop a touch of the finger tips had been enough.

Let us hope that Mind will learn enough over the years to enjoy such a day with a horse.


----------



## mildot

Well said, sir.


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## Cacowgirl

To BSMS-I always enjoy your comments & I like your sense of humor.-& how you often poke fun at yourself. I too, was in the military & while my lessons were decades ago-I can still hear my teacher's advice on how to sit ,etc.-She had no sympathy for the athritis I was diagnosed w/in my 20's & now, 40 years later I have a lot more of it. Looking forward to moving to AZ soon, just hope I have enough cold-weather gear to ride through most of the winter. (Wish somebody could tell me how to ask a question/start a thread?)


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## Skyseternalangel

Cacowgirl said:


> (Wish somebody could tell me how to ask a question/start a thread?)


Go to the forum you want to post in. At the top left is a "new thread" rectangular button with a little paper and a plus in the right corner of it. As soon as you click that, you can post the credentials in for your thread.. hit post, and you'll have asked your question/made your very own thread


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## Cacowgirl

Thank you skyseter...I see it now.


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## Scoutrider

Just wanted to chime in and say that you're getting heaps of excellent advice here, mind, and offer some friendly encouragement as you continue to learn about riding and horses. There's always so much to learn, sometimes it can be daunting - especially as we watch the greats who make it look so easy and discover how much there really is to truly communicating and working with the horse. I've said for years that more guys need to get out there and enjoy these amazing animals. Guy or gal, there really isn't anything else like a gallop through an open field, a bold jump, or a relaxing ride down a wooded trail. Winston Churchill said that "there is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man." Welcome to the sport! 

As far as recommendations about disciplines, I personally think that you should start with what inspires you - that will help keep you inspired and motivated through rough patches in the learning process and those mornings when you wake up feeling too sore to move (We all have 'em). If your "dream" is to chase cattle don't go for a jumping saddle at first. If your "dream" is to fly over an XC course, go for a forward-seat model. Of course, everyone starts with the basics, which are pretty transferrable and generic - the basic gas pedal, brakes, steering, and transmission are essentially the same across disciplines, although the real finesse can vary rather dramatically as horses and riders specialize. 

And, what inspires you may change. When I first started, I was one of those nigh-fearless 12 year old girls dreaming of greased-lightning barrel patterns. Now, ~10 years later, I've got a bit more sense of self preservation (read: fallen off a few times and discovered that I really don't have any "need for speed"), and I've dabbled in everything from gaming to WP to hunt seat. I've been into dressage for a couple of years now, still just learning my way around the nitty-gritty of being a real rider, truly feeling and influencing my horse. It's addicting, honestly. :wink:


----------



## kevinshorses

I didn't read all the posts on this thread but I wanted to comment on the OP. 

Don't worry about what any of your male peers say about riding horses. If it's something you like to do then do it with pride. I've never understood why participating in a female dominated hobby makes a man a sissy. It seems to me participating in sports that encourage male on male butt slapping and group showers would put to question a mans orientation.

Be nice to every 12 year old girl because 12 year old girls have older sisters or cougar mothers!

Learn to ride properly but not at the expense of enjoying your hobby. When it quits being fun change what you're doing.

Remember that you aren't riding a furry motorcycle. The horse has feelings and needs that a good horseman will meet before his own.


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## mildot

kevinshorses said:


> Remember that you aren't riding a furry motorcycle. The horse has feelings and needs that a good horseman will meet before his own.


Some of my most enjoyable times around horses are taking care of them after they've worked their butt off for me.


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## Skyseternalangel

kevinshorses said:


> Be nice to every 12 year old girl because 12 year old girls have older sisters or cougar mothers!


Oh... wow. Ahaha


----------



## DuffyDuck

kevinshorses said:


> I didn't read all the posts on this thread but I wanted to comment on the OP.
> 
> Don't worry about what any of your male peers say about riding horses. If it's something you like to do then do it with pride. I've never understood why participating in a female dominated hobby makes a man a sissy. It seems to me participating in sports that encourage male on male butt slapping and group showers would put to question a mans orientation.
> 
> *Be nice to every 12 year old girl because 12 year old girls have older sisters or cougar mothers!*
> 
> Learn to ride properly but not at the expense of enjoying your hobby. When it quits being fun change what you're doing.
> 
> Remember that you aren't riding a furry motorcycle. The horse has feelings and needs that a good horseman will meet before his own.



Thanks so much Kevin, I just sprayed hot tea all over my laptop :lol::lol::lol:


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## mildot

Let's just say that speaking from personal experience, male riders are warmly welcomed at english barns........


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## Darrin

Just to throw in my .02 cents. I rode a bit while younger as we had a horse on the farm, just not a whole lot because the darn horse didn't run on gas and have gobs of horse power (**** I wish I hadn't missed all those years of riding). Anyway, I got into riding at 25 myself and lets just say it was a real eye opener. At 43 I'm still loving it and hate every day I can't ride because of work.

I was laughing during the whole gay discussion in this thread. I haven't met one male rider yet that I thought was gay or had been told is. Not saying I haven't met one, just didn't know it (and don't care either way). But, the women sure do love seeing men ride.

Do want to second an earlier piece of advice. Mix in trail riding with your lessons (either english or western saddle on the trail). It's a completely different world outside of an arena and will teach you a different set of skills that will also translate into the arena.


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## MagicDestiny

I think it's awesome that you want to start riding! There's been a lot of great advice so far. I just wanted to say stay positive. When you first start riding you may feel frustrated at times, but don't get discouraged and keep at it! Horse riding is more of a 'marathon' rather than a 'sprint'. You're in it for the long haul and you can always learn something new. I wish you luck!


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## xxBarry Godden

Being heterosexual, gay men only disturb me when I meet them dressed up in plastic strapping and pit bull collars. Then I feel distinctly ill at ease. Not once in my long life has one of their sort come up to me and said "Hello sweetie". I suspect I've come across more than one in the horse world but never has one suggested that we have a roll in the hay.

But with hindsight, I realize that over the decades, one or two predatory women have studied my manly looks, my hairy arms, my muscular body, my pert butt and laughed at my quick wit. Nevertheless I have been lucky to escape their lust. I am innocent still and I remain to this day unsullied by their feminine desires.

Several horses however have had me wrapped around their hooves.


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## Spyder

Barry Godden said:


> But with hindsight, I realize that over the decades, one or two predatory women have studied my manly looks, my hairy arms, my muscular body, my pert butt and laughed at my quick wit. Nevertheless I have been lucky to escape their lust. I am innocent still and I remain to this day unsullied by their feminine desires.
> 
> .


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

But the big question....Do you ride in form fitting breeches ?:shock:


----------



## mind

kevinshorses said:


> I didn't read all the posts on this thread but I wanted to comment on the OP.
> 
> Don't worry about what any of your male peers say about riding horses. If it's something you like to do then do it with pride. I've never understood why participating in a female dominated hobby makes a man a sissy. It seems to me participating in sports that encourage male on male butt slapping and group showers would put to question a mans orientation.
> 
> Be nice to every 12 year old girl because 12 year old girls have older sisters or cougar mothers!
> 
> Learn to ride properly but not at the expense of enjoying your hobby. When it quits being fun change what you're doing.
> 
> Remember that you aren't riding a furry motorcycle. The horse has feelings and needs that a good horseman will meet before his own.





Barry Godden said:


> Being heterosexual, gay men only disturb me when I meet them dressed up in plastic strapping and pit bull collars. Then I feel distinctly ill at ease. Not once in my long life has one of their sort come up to me and said "Hello sweetie". I suspect I've come across more than one in the horse world but never has one suggested that we have a roll in the hay.
> 
> But with hindsight, I realize that over the decades, one or two predatory women have studied my manly looks, my hairy arms, my muscular body, my pert butt and laughed at my quick wit. Nevertheless I have been lucky to escape their lust. I am innocent still and I remain to this day unsullied by their feminine desires.
> 
> Several horses however have had me wrapped around their hooves.


These two posts have me laughing very hard. I'll certainly keep in mind that twelve year old girls potentially have hot older sisters and cougar moms.

I'm humbled by the amount of great advice given to me in this thread, I can't thank you all enough. I've read it all very carefully and taken note of all the information provided. 

I did some research and found a barn which looks very nice close to my house and it offers exclusively adult group lessons!


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## Cacowgirl

Sounds good. Keep us updated!


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## DuffyDuck

Spyder said:


> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
> 
> But the big question....Do you ride in form fitting breeches ?:shock:



:lol: my dad does, our trainer when we moved to our new yard nearly fell off his horse laughing!!


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## xxBarry Godden

Well, Ladies to settle your curiosity I wear elasticated riding breeches and I am assured that my neat, pert, well shaped butt is on full display.

No pinching, please.


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## bsms

"Some folks say that I'm egotistical. 
Hell, I don't even know what that means. 
I guess it has something to do with the way 
that I fill out my skin tight blue jeans."


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## DuffyDuck

You guys do make me chuckle haha. My dad is so disappointed in himself that he didn't start riding earlier... he said with that many girls running around in tight trousers!


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## Ian McDonald

Barry Godden said:


> Well, Ladies to settle your curiosity I wear elasticated riding breeches and I am assured that my neat, pert, well shaped butt is on full display.
> 
> No pinching, please.


Oh MY..


----------



## Spyder

Barry Godden said:


> Well, Ladies to settle your curiosity I wear elasticated riding breeches and I am assured that my neat, pert, well shaped butt is on full display.
> 
> No pinching, please.



Now that will get me thinking.........a lot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

:happydance::happydance::happydance:


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## mildot

Do we need to start a manly riders picture/video thread?


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## Spyder

mildot said:


> Do we need to start a manly riders picture/video thread?



Absolutely...just like the firefighters calendar.

And BSMS can stare it rolling.:wink:


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## Ian McDonald

Here's my contribution

http://groundmannersguy.com/havesaddlewilltravel/Chuck on Ginger 12.11.jpg


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## Northernstar

Welcome! None of your questions and concerns are silly, but highly admirable! Enjoy this new-found hobby in your life to the fullest, and do not concern yourself of what others are thinking - very likely, thoughts would be positive, and you may find other riders who sincerely would want to guide you along the way. Best of luck!


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## mildot

I suppose I should put up

riding :: MOV01544-1.mp4 video by JRossy - Photobucket


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## Spyder

Ian McDonald said:


> Here's my contribution
> 
> http://groundmannersguy.com/havesaddlewilltravel/Chuck%20on%20Ginger%2012.11.jpg



BUT....where is the HAIR !!!! :think:

And mildot--the video doesn't work.....:-(


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## Darrin

I prefer not to break a good camera so not many photos of me out there.


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## Ian McDonald

Spyder said:


> BUT....where is the HAIR !!!! :think:
> 
> And mildot--the video doesn't work.....:-(


It's here


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## xxBarry Godden

I knew it. I only had to let out the secret behind my riding expertise and there arises a clamour to reveal my butt. It’s a call not merely to peek but more a call to expose to the whole English speaking world my pert peachy derriere. It is not on folks. You asketh too much of a modest man. A surreptitious friendly fondle is one thing - a world wide gawp is something very different. 
No, never 

Plus there is the little problem that the photo copier won’t take my weight.


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## mildot

Well played sir. Well played. :lol:


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## jinxremoving

George Patton has to be one of the manliest (English) riders of all time!

"Patton deliberately cultivated a flashy, distinctive image in the belief that this would motivate his troops. He was usually seen wearing a highly polished helmet, riding pants, and high cavalry boots. He carried flashy ivory-handled, nickel-plated revolvers as his most famous sidearms (a Colt Single Action Army .45 "Peacemaker" and later also a S&W Model 27 .357)."

Suddenly, I want to ride with sidearms! :]


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## mildot

jinxremoving said:


> George Patton has to be one of the manliest (English) riders of all time!
> 
> "Patton deliberately cultivated a flashy, distinctive image in the belief that this would motivate his troops. He was usually seen wearing a highly polished helmet, riding pants, and high cavalry boots. He carried flashy ivory-handled, nickel-plated revolvers as his most famous sidearms (a Colt Single Action Army .45 "Peacemaker" and later also a S&W Model 27 .357)."
> 
> Suddenly, I want to ride with sidearms! :]


Definitely not a man to be messed with


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## mildot

You know, look at the General's impeccable form over fences and compare it to the bizzare (legs splayed out back behind the girth, upper body all over the horse's neck, broken line from elbow to bit, no contact with the horse's mouth) poses you see used by hunter princesses in the ring today.










You can tell who rides for show and who rides as if his life depended on it (because it did).


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## bsms

Great photo, mildot!

I'll follow Barry Godden's modesty and decline to reveal my derriere, but I'll put my dorkishness on display for all to see:

Notice Patton's foot? The stirrup is just the metal bars, with no rubber tread. I read Ronald Reagan liked riding like that. I tried it, and prefer it for anything but a leather sole. Leather against metal is too slick for my level of riding. 

Also, Patton's foot position is right at where I ride every day. Not all the way "home", but farther forward than is usually recommended.

Let's face it. It takes a high degree of dorkishness to see a photo of a General jumping a horse over an obstacle on a bridge, and notice the foot position. However, to the non-jumper in me, it looks like his overall position is very good as well. 

When you start examining every picture of someone riding and critiquing it to the level of examining stirrups, you're a dork.

I'm guilty!

Oh...and I may need to think about carrying my .44 when I ride. If nothing else, it might reduce the number of snarky comments from the peanut gallery. :shock: And it gives me an idea of how to respond when someone posts a thread about how people in her 'barn' say mean things: "Grab a revolver, .44 or .45. Nickel plated if possible. Wear it in an easy to see position. You'll be surprised at how few snarky teens want to comment when you're wearing a 44 Magnum!"


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## mildot

bsms, out of respect for the barn owner where I ride, I don't carry my pistol on her property (concealed or otherwise) out of respect to her. While I haven't asked her about it (and Ohio law does not require one to ask permission from private property owners or notify them that you are carrying), I can gauge people pretty well and know she would not approve.

However, on public trails that is a different story. Need to upgrade my gunleather though.


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## bsms

I actually wouldn't carry on private property. Out on the trail is another matter. My son-in-law has come across drug/gun caches while riding his dirt bike within 10 miles of me! He beat feet ASAP, but he now carries anytime he goes out off road. Sad that it has come to that.


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## mildot

bsms said:


> I actually wouldn't carry on private property.


Not to derail this too much but normally I do and it's nobody's business. It's concealed. No one will see it unless it's go time.

By private property I mean businesses open to the public and other people's homes.

I follow all laws relating to the carrying of handguns to the T. I also don't advertise it to anyone when I am carrying, much less unholster to show it off or whatever.


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## MangoRoX87

WELCOME!
My dad didn't start riding horses till I told him to hop on Mango bareback..Mango was about 18 at the time and had quite the nice boney back.....dad didn't like that so much but he bought his own saddle and has taken lessons with my mom and me He thinks is is a super awesome cowboy and that John Wayne has nothing on him..he started riding when he was aboout 48 I'd say, and is now 52!


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## Showjumper1

I think it's great that you want to get into riding! There aren't enough guys in the sport. I actually think that if you were to start taking lessons or showing, you would get welcomed and accepted. I'm a female rider and I can tell you that whenever there was a new rider at the ranch that was a guy, it was cool. I didn't think negatively about them, I was glad that there is some gender diversity in the sport. I agree with you about wanting to take private lessons. I find that the instructor can focus their attention on what I'm doing and they can help me better than if they have to focus on a whole group.


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## xxBarry Godden

It is interesting to compare the two photos.
The General (who was probably a colonel at the time of the photo was taken sometime around 1940) was riding in the military forward style with double reins - as per Vladimir Littauer's forward style which was fashionable at the time.

The rider in the coloured photo is riding in a modern pseudo classical style - be it with a loose rein and a backward sloping leg. However the grey is taking the jump in a rounded outline using a single rein. 

The two styles of riding are separated by maybe 65 years.

It is for the experts to criticise the style of jumping but I suspect the grey could cope better with the layout of a modern jumping course which is designed to test the horse and rider more severely than the amateur military duo was once tested back in the late 1930s.

Alongside his military successes in Europe Patton saved the Lippizaner stallions at the end of WW2. Interestingly both the Russian Zhukov who commanded the Russian armies and Patton were ardent horse riders.

Modern competitive jumping courses are specifically designed to catch the horse out - the General's riding abilities would have been tested to the full by a modern professional show jumping course.

The painting of Patton shows him as a 4 star general - which means the painting was done not long before he was killed in a motoring accident after the war in Europe had ended. He was a controversial general who was superior to Eisenhower at the beginning of the war but by the time of the painting Eisenhower was a 5 star general and destined to be President.

Interesting both Patton and the supreme Russian General Zuikov were ardent horse riders.


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## mildot

Barry, 

When you look at modern 3-day eventers on their cross country phase, I think you will see a remarkable similarity of technique with General Patton's. In fact, notice the red on right/white on left flags along the jump. Methinks that the general (major/lt col/colonel at the time?) was participating in a 3 day event at the time the photo was taken.

Many (most?) eventers ride in a much less forward manner when going XC than they do in the stadium. And even then, both eventers and show jumpers almost never do stadium jumps in such an unbalance position as show hunters.

The jumper photo I posted is of the American show hunter discipline in which making the horse look as stylish as possible over jumps with the least amount of rider input is the goal. It is strictly a style show and the riders canter in a two point fwd position all over the course. Over the years show hunters have continued to deviate from the classical cross country jumping position to the extreme that you see today. It is educational to read older editions of George Morris' Hunt Seat Equitation and see how far from those positions show hunters in the US are today.

Honestly, I see little security in the modern show hunter style under stumbles or refusals.


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## jinxremoving

Unfortunately, I imagine there's a few people reading this thread wondering who the hell Patton is:

George S. Patton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## xxBarry Godden

It is not for me an Englishman to tell the story of General Patton. 
He was arguably one of America's boldest generals and I must owe him for doing his part in finishing off the war with the Germans - who feared him.

Perhaps his British counterpart was solid General Montgomery - arguably described as an English eccentric, but a man who again did his full part in the defeat of the Germans on the ground.

I mentioned relentless Zuikov - he was honoured by Stalin to be given to ride a white stallion to the lead the troops at a post war victory parade in Moscow.

Arguably without the ruthlessness of Generals Montgomery, Patton and Zuikov the war might have ended differently.

It would have been interesting to have watched Patton handling a horse. It is said he loved horses.


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## DuffyDuck

I love, just LOVE how threads digress haha! Digress, but someone stay on subject as he is technically a male rider?


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## jinxremoving

General Patton also helped protect some of the horses from the Spanish Riding School during World War II:

Alois Podhajsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
RESCUE OF THE WHITE MARES

It's an incredible story. 

Edit:

That's the last from me, lol. I won't take this thread off course any longer.


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## mind

I'm not in the least offended by the digression, for now I'm quite enjoying reading all the posts as it's an interesting topic being discussed. As I said previously in the thread, it will be a bit of time until I can officially enter lessons, and until then I'm just enjoying the equine discussion. I'm certain, once I actually have more questions, the thread will go back on topic.

Thank you for the welcome Mango and Showjumper. I certainly no longer feel old to be entering the community at twenty-three, given how many apparently men do so in their forties through daughters.

The American firearms culture consistently amazes me, no one would ever dream of carrying a hand gun with them in Canada. You're only allowed to remove one from your home to transport it to a gun club you're a registered member at and it needs to be in a locked case with a trigger lock. 

Mildot, I found the information of the American show hunter discipline very interesting, now I understand why I've seen it referred to as a mounted fashion show haha.


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## maura

Wow, I have a lot to post in this thread and can't as I'm at work and can't access links and videos. 

But first -



> Vladimir Littauer's forward style which was fashionable at the time.


Littauer's forward style is fashionable NOW to those of use who believe in it, ride it and teach it. It is the foundation of the American system of forward riding taught and espoused by George Morris, et al.

I wasn't aware it had ever gone out of fashion. 

The photo of the overly mannered, less than functional, hunter rider is NOT a good example of the discipline, and I can channel my inner George Morris and give it an eviserating critique, George style, if you like. 

That said, discipline bashing is always uncalled for and always ugly, especially using one bad photo of a competitor as an indictment of a whole discipline. Think we could do that to other disciplines as well? 

There are some fabulous riders and stylists in the American hunter ring (and I will post videos later.) and notably, the hunter ring is where the vast majority of our jumper riders come from. Despite riding in the same area as the young lady pictured, our jumper riders manage to do quite well internationally, NOT in spite of their hunter background, but because of it. 

More later.


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## xxBarry Godden

Maura, I am an ardent fan of Littauer's and forward riding and have a copy of all his books but he is not well known on this tiny sceptured isle. I had been doing fine with my cob Joe but when I bought a dressage horse (by mistake) I was told to go 'Classical' which I did until I fell off once too often.

I am pleased to hear his teaching is still in vogue in the US.


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## maura

Second place finisher in this year's Maclay -

No princess here, this is a hunter queen. I think we can agree this is functional riding.


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## xxBarry Godden

Vladimir Littauer was born a Russian and served as a young man in a very fashionable Russian cavalry regiment. In the civil war which followed the end of WW1 he went over to the Whites and as a result had to leave Russia when they lost the Civil War. He made his way to the US where he settled and became a famous horse riding guru based on ‘forward riding’. He was following the ideas of the Italian Capt Caprilli, who promoted the posture of leaning forwards when galloping down hill whereas in that era the Brits would have leant backwards. It was radical thinking based on the idea that the rider went ‘with’ the horse and at speed stayed forward over its centre of gravity. Eventually the forward riding prevailed over the old fox hunting seats.

His book ‘*Commonsense Horsemanship’ ISBN 0-668 02602-2 *first printed in 1951 is almost a bible for cross country riders. Mr Littauer became the manager/trainer for the US Olympic team.

His ideas are sometimes seen to be at odds with the traditional ‘Classical ‘ riding theories which follow largely the principles developed by the Spanish School of Riding and other classical riding centres in Europe. 
There is more than one system to ride a horse.


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## Cinder

Not to be a fun ruiner but I do think this thread has gone way off topic.

To the OP: Welcome to the wonderful world of riding and you simply must schedule a lesson ASAP and tell us how it goes.


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## bsms

Oh great. Now I've just blown more money at Amazon, and I don't even JUMP!

You folks are an EVIL influence!

Amazon.com: The forward seat: Modern horsemanship for beginners,: Vladimir Stanislas Littauer: Books


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## maura

bsms, 

That's not the best title of his, some of his work is a little hard to read. 

Commonsense Horsemanship is the best and most accessible of his books; and pretty much the bible of the method.

This is the second title I would recommend:

Amazon.com: Schooling your horse: A simple up-to-date method of schooling hunters, jumpers, and hacks: Vladimir S Littauer: Books

and this would be the third:

Amazon.com: The Development of Modern Riding (9780876058978): Vladimir S. Littauer: Books


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## mind

I think my perpetuating the thought that American hunter jumper shows are comparable to fashion shows in my response to Mildot's post was poor judgement. I read it in another thread during my exploration of the forum, but it's no one's place to judge anothers' discipline, especially mine, seeing as I lack a disciple..

I'll be returning to reading and learning now..

Cinder, thank you for the welcome 
I plan on contacting a few instructors in February and beginning lessons then, I need to pay for this semesters tuition and books before taking up an expensive new sport sadly. C'est la vie, the realities of university.


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## maura

mind, 

I am not at all miffed at you, sorry if I gave that impression. This forum is not terribly kind to the hunter discipline, and I am a touch sensitive on that subject. Mildot and I can duke it out on our own.

Now, I'd love to lecture on why it's not hunter jumper or hunter/jumper but two separate but related disciplines, but I suspect I will have bored my audience. 

Please do post back and let us know about your adventures in riding.


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## mildot

maura said:


> Mildot and I can duke it out on our own.


We're not going to.

I won't engage in discipline bashing. I merely pointed out the difference between what I consider effective riding while going across the country and an exaggerated style that some can get away with within the confines of a well groomed arena and the horse's preferred way of going in hunters.

No doubt there are hunter riders who still follow Morris' advice and teachings. I suspect those are the ones who do best as jumpers.


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## mildot

Not a lot has changed in cross country jumping:

Then:










Now:









To be honest, I find the general amazing. So totally centered with free hands that follow the mouth without having to rest on the crest.

Truly a man's man in every respect.


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## maura

Interesting that the modern photo you chose to compare shows a very mannered crest release that would look at home in the hunter ring instead of an auto release, such as Patton's. 

Also, the modern rider has exagerrated the "stirrup home" position to such a point that it has robbed him of flexibility, whereas Patton's, while reminescent of the older Calvary seat, has maintained flexibility and weight in his heel while wearing his stirrup further back than today's hunter riders. 

If your intent was to argue that Patton was a heck of a rider, I'm persuaded. The rest, not so much.


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## Cinder

Every discipline has good and bad riders, people. There's no need to try to prove that one way or the other, we all know it.


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## AlexS

I think it comes down to how you were taught - which actually relates back to some of Mind's original questions. I was never taught to come up and out of the saddle and over the horses neck, if I had done that my trainer would have pulled me off my horse immediately and I would have been in trouble. 

Here's the only pic I have of me jumping, it's ancient, but I can still see flaws that I do today. 












But anyway, that relates to Mind's initial comments, as it is really hard to find a good instructor, especially for new riders. Habits, once created take an age to unlearn. And sadly a great many people advertise themselves as instructors without any real qualifications or reasons for such a title. 

You have received a ton of great advise here Mind (welcome by the way), but something that I didn't see in my skimming of all the posts.... the horse world is dominated by women at the lower levels of the sport - but in most disciplines, at the top levels, it's the men who dominate.


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## Cinder

AlexS, I was always taught that you're still supposed to stay...centered in the saddle is the best way I can describe it (like just the way your butt is if that makes sense, except perhaps a TAD more forward depending). Kind of like how you're jumping in that picture. Jumping on the neck was seen as a no-no and a sure almost-fall or fall scenario.


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## AlexS

I believe that climbing up the neck of the horse is incorrect, and does more to unbalance the horse than assist it. I am too far out of my saddle in that pic though, but I am not sure if that's my form (as this is the only jumping pic I have of myself) or if my stirrups could have gone down a hole.


But anyway, I didn't mean to make it about me - I was meaning that a good instructor makes a massive amount of difference. The girl pictured earlier likely has lessons, and was taught to jump by someone.


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## anndankev

mildot said:


> Do we need to start a manly riders picture/video thread?


Yes sir, and I don't mean maybe.


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## mind

Thank you for the welcome, Alex.

It's interesting that the percentage of male riders increases at the highest levels, I was beginning to notice that myself through the various discussions. Is there a simple explanation for the shift or is it variety of circumstances working together to cause the change? 

Do men just enjoy the attention they are given from the female majority of riders at the lower levels so much they never leave the sport and thereby increase to the highest levels..? :lol:

In english riding, do men and women compete separately or together in competitions, I'd imagine together?


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## AlexS

No idea why men tend to be prominent in the higher levels, I'd be guessing at answers, but maybe they find it easier to get sponsorship - I dunno. 

There are not any gender based classes that I can think of, but I am not American, and there are lots of American classes that I am not familiar with. 

If you are interested in watching some top level classes in lots of disciplines, you can do so at FEI TV online. 
FEI TV | Home | Welcome to FEI TV

I am not sure how much you can see for free, I know you can see some - but I subscribe so I can watch all the events.


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## Cinder

I am American and I have never heard of anything like that happening, mind. Horseback riding is a pretty equal-gender sport when it comes to who's allowed to comepete with who. 

As for why the men tend to dominate the upper levels, I can only guess. Perhaps it's because more females are willing to just pleasure ride and any males who join the sport and put up with any teasing or whatever don't want to pleasure ride, they want to "see" something from it and compete. I hope I'm making sense because I just woke up :lol:.


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## Darrin

I would say men are more prevalent in the upper echelons for one main reason. Women are willing to do things for pure pleasure while men have to turn everything they do into a competition. So while fewer men enter the riding world a far higher percentage of men who start riding go on to compete.


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## AlexS

So remember us all when you are famous Mind!


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## bubba13

Darrin said:


> I would say men are more prevalent in the upper echelons for one main reason. Women are willing to do things for pure pleasure while men have to turn everything they do into a competition. So while fewer men enter the riding world a far higher percentage of men who start riding go on to compete.


I've read similar in articles from several reining trainers describing their clients. Seems that with the average woman, it's about loving animals and cementing a bond with their horse--an emotional attachment/partnership. With the average man, the horse is a means to an end, namely achieving fame/glory in competition.


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## mildot

bubba13 said:


> With the average man, the horse is a means to an end, namely achieving fame/glory in competition.


I disagree with whoever said that.

A real horseman (or someone who aspires to be) sees their horse as more than a means to an end.

Men express their affection for their animals differently. Think partner/buddy and not "my little pony".


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## bsms

I like my horses, but I also don't compete. While some women are extremely competitive, I think men on average are more willing to do whatever it takes to win. There is a book on what it takes to be truly competitive. I only read excerpts, but the guy made the point that you have to be willing to move anywhere or accept harm to other parts of normal living. If you aren't, others will - and there is only room for one at the top.

I suspect more men than women are willing to quit their jobs and move.


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## Radiowaves

Mind, I hope you're not at the point of "information overload".... It has been and still is quite an interesting thread.

Different folks may have different goals in riding and may gain their prime enjoyment from different facets of their horse-related activities; when you begin riding and have your own opportunity to interact with a horse, you'll find out what facets you get the most enjoyment from. You'll just have to see where the process takes you.

I competed (western) many decades ago when I was young and enjoyed it tremendously. Today, I do more trail riding than anything else and I enjoy the relationship with my horse and the really close bond we have developed along with the process of doing things together, whether it's riding, groundwork, grooming or whatever. Just being with him gives me so much pleasure.

Once you start the experience for yourself, you'll find your way into the part of it that you like the best. My advice is to enjoy the process and don't let it become "work". You're doing this to have fun and that's what it needs to be! 

Welcome to the forum and to the horse world!

Radiowaves
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soenjer55

Don't think too much and just do it!
As for what the female riders will think... well personally, I would be pretty **** happy there's a young guy who passed up a fancy car to learn to ride.

The most important thing is to find a trainer you're comfortable with, and one that you know is a good trainer- as in, you've spoken to people that they have worked with and they have good things to say. Other than that, I don't think it really matters whether they specialize in training adults or children, not in the very beginning.


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## mind

Mildot encouraged me to post an update, so here I am 

I've had eight lessons to date, unfortunately only riding once a week for now. The instructor and barn is great for my current needs, they mainly work with young girls and since I take lessons in the mid morning I essentially have barn to myself. I'll probably switch to another barn with a more mature crowd once I progress a bit further in my abilities, because being around horse people aside from my instructor would be nice.


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## Skyseternalangel

Sounds like great news!

Another thought is join a trail riding group? One that adults meet up and go on trail rides. Usually they have horses available so you don't need your own. Any kind of adult horse club would be fine to fill the void per-say.



mind said:


> Mildot encouraged me to post an update, so here I am
> 
> I've had eight lessons to date, unfortunately only riding once a week for now. The instructor and barn is great for my current needs, they mainly work with young girls and since I take lessons in the mid morning I essentially have barn to myself. I'll probably switch to another barn with a more mature crowd once I progress a bit further in my abilities, because being around horse people aside from my instructor would be nice.


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## tinyliny

Mind,


did you say you were taking English or Western lessons? What do you think of your instructor? Good to hear that you ARE pursueing this.

There are quite a few male members here, so I think you should feel at ease here, no?


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## mind

Skyseternalangel said:


> Sounds like great news!
> 
> Another thought is join a trail riding group? One that adults meet up and go on trail rides. Usually they have horses available so you don't need your own. Any kind of adult horse club would be fine to fill the void per-say.


Good suggestion, thanks Sky.



tinyliny said:


> Mind,
> 
> 
> did you say you were taking English or Western lessons? What do you think of your instructor? Good to hear that you ARE pursueing this.
> 
> There are quite a few male members here, so I think you should feel at ease here, no?


I'm taking English Lessons.

I like my instructor, she's laid back but still takes a very active role in the lessons and is good at communicating. I don't have much of a basis of comparison though. 

I've noticed quite a few male members, so yes, I feel at ease here. It helps that everyone was and is very supportive of male riders despite it being a female dominated sport. I got over those concerns pretty soon after creating this thread.


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