# Training issue or pain? Horse suddenly bucking/bolting at mounting



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The background of the horse is unknown, owner has had the horse approximately 2 months. Horse has been ridden several times a week since purchase with no issues other than slight barnsourness--- the horse tries to hurry home but can easily be kept to a walk, and will try to spin and head home, again, easily ridden through. These problems seemed to be lessening with each ride. 

Last week, the horse took off bucking when the rider tried to mount. Same result from a mounting block with a different saddle. Saddles fit, nothing wrong with the pad or cinch, experienced rider who mounts well. A vet found nothing wrong and no evidence of pain, nor did a chiropractor find anything that would yield such a complete turnaround in this horse's temperament. Owner spent several days with the horse working on saddling, desensitization, more groundwork, and the horse was fine. No reaction to pulling on the saddle horn or pressing weight in the stirrup with the hand, but the second you go to mount, whether from the ground or the block, left or right side, the previously relaxed horse blows up. He's not apprehensive about being handled or saddled, he's easy to catch, easy to work around, no pain response to flexion, pressure on the back with the hands, lifting the hind hooves, etc. But when he knows you're going to get on him, he bolts, bucks, and if you stick on through that, he'll try to go over backward. Owner has not tried anything with him since he dumped her on hardpan and then proceeded to run and buck through two fences to get back to his pasturemates.

Owner is torn between a training issue (anxiety/barnsourness seem to have increased since this incident) or pain. Horse is a 11 y.o. mustang gelding, background unknown, but he was doing great with no issues before this. It's completely out of the blue. Having x-rays is a huge undertaking here- horse would have to be hauled several hours away and it's obscenely expensive. Considering the owner purchased the horse for $300, her husband is questioning spending thousands on a horse they've not had for long with such a dangerous problem, especially as the vet and chiro say they can't find any soreness anywhere. There's a limit to what you spend on a cheap horse you haven't had for long with a trait likely to get you seriously hurt. Owner is torn between resting the horse a few months and working on groundwork and seeing if the problem is still there, or simply selling the horse at auction as non-rideable or euthanizing as he's got limited market value being green-broke at his age and a mustang, especially with this issue. It's explosive and it's dangerous. How much time and money do you put into an animal like this?

Anyone had something like this happen before? He has been just fine for two months, so one would suspect pain, but nobody can find anything. It's not like this was an escalating issue, or the horse showed any signs of being in pain under saddle. He's flexible and moves freely at all gaits when loose. Vet says all you can do is haul for x-rays and perhaps try a course of gastroguard on the chance it might be ulcers, but again, she's looking at $$$. If she knew that would fix it, then fine, but without knowing, is it worth it? Like she said, she'll never fully trust this horse again, and she rides alone, so.....


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I wonder if "cold-back syndrome" has occurred.
Something triggers it then compounds to explosive in nature with time.
A possibility... :shrug:

If the rider has no trust in the horse...
I can see the persons family member questioning spending so much money for a animal that has breached the trust and scared the rider enough they may not ride and enjoy ever again.
If this is a BLM horse they can be returned still...another can adopt and work the issue.
I could see walking away yet not abandoning the animal but return to the BLM adoption process. There are many out there that love to take on the hard ones returned with issue...he need not end up in bad hands.
Or...although young...there are options other than the auction sale.
 
:runninghorse2:....


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

First let me say I am not an expert with mustangs. There is a member on here that is though and you might want to contact him. 

For a $300 horse, would not be a huge loss money wise to give him up. For the horse's sake though, another chance would be the kind thing to do. 

Maybe you would be willing to send the horse to the mustang expert? His name is @Reds La Boop

Now that's said, my thought is that the horse is very much barn sour and has quickly learnt that the owner can be bucked off so the horse can return to his buddies. This is not something that can be corrected easily and needs a professional. 

Just walking may not be enough exercise to keep this horse calm. He may need regular, challenging work to stay sound of mind. 

How much time & money the owner is willing to put into the horse is of course up to them, but very hard to regain trust once a person fears the horse will hurt them. 

I hate to see any horse go off to auction, so would suggest offering the horse to the mustang experts (Reds La Boop), returning him to the BLM if possible, or even letting him be a pasture pal. 

Another option would be using for a pack horse.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Also not an expert, but Mustangs are notoriously difficult to earn their trust. "The best horses ever - once you earn their trust!" is how the saying goes. At this point, the trust may be irreparably damaged from both the horse's and the rider's side. There are probably people with expertise who don't need a riding horse tomorrow who can work on gaining this horse's confidence with a virtually unlimited time frame. I would try to look for such a person - the horse deserves it. It did nothing wrong (in the sense of _mens rea_).


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

How experienced are the people that bought the horse ?
I doubt, as a BLM adoption, the horse was any more then very green broke
Then again, OP states history of horse is unknown, thus for all we know, could have been adopted as a weanling or yearling, with years of domestic life.
Where was the horse purchased from? A dealer or right from BLM- that point is fuzzy for me


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, 

As, on the surface at least, seems out of the blue/out of character, and a BIG reaction, I'd absolutely want to rule out pain or serious fear as the cause. & I'd think pain more likely if all has been going well - & getting better before. Vets typically, unless they've specialised, may not know a lot about body issues that aren't obvious & potentially less about saddle fit & the likes. A good *veterinary* chiro 'should' have a fairly good idea about saddle fit, but not always a given. Or that the chiro is a registered vet chiro or therefore if they're actually well educated & experienced. Therefore I'd certainly be seeking other opinions before ruling out pain. It could have been a sudden, acute problem - pinched nerve, something sticking out of the saddle, whatever, or it could have been an ongoing prob that he's been able to 'grin & bear' in the past, but has progressively become worse, until he has to 'shout' about it. 

I appreciate fully the issue of money & logistics in relation to treatment/diagnostics & that there is of course a limit we all need to make. BUT IMO the monetary 'worth' of the horse is irrelevant to that. He didn't decide he was worth that, choose to be bought by these people - rather, they chose to *take responsibility* for him - so he doesn't deserve any less than a horse 'worth' $kkk. 

It could also be a case of a rather mentally 'shut down' horse, who due to previous treatment, is apparently quiet & obedient, but is like a 'stress bomb' that things might build up gradually without the owner being aware until 'suddenly, out of the blue, for no good reason' it gets too much for him & he explodes. If that were the case, a patient & considerate trainer can usually get him over that, start from scratch without 'overfacing' him.

So... Regardless of whether it started out as due to pain or 'just behavioural' there will be a behavioural/fear aspect now, as horses don't think rationally, but learn from associations. So due to the first instance, he would have been nervous about the next time, and every time he felt the need to react to it, that would be strengthening his belief in it being Bad. You've noticed he's more 'barnsour' now, which is one result of this association. So I'd also suggest that once pain is ruled out/eliminated, your friend also finds a good trainer to help replace those Bad associations with Good ones.

I think, regardless of financial ability, it depends also on your friend's level of horsemanship ability & also love for the horse as to how much money & effort she might put in reasonably. For eg. if she is an inconfident rider anyway, her 'lack of trust' might cause the horse to doubt her & being ridden all the more. And maybe she doesn't have the ability or desire to get past that with this horse.

I know that one first hand, as after having kids & my first bad riding accident on my green horse(due to pain), I became very nervous & made matters all the worse for my poor boy(If Mum's so frightened to get on, there must be something Really Bad...). I was very experienced myself then, but this still 'knocked' me big time(nothing like having babies to learn real fear!) & if I wasn't very attached to this 4yo horse that I'd had since he was 4mo, able to find a *considerate* trainer to help & confident I could take it in baby steps to get US BOTH over our new fear of riding, I might have given him away, for HIS good as well as mine. I went through a period of thinking I'd never trust him again(& he probably did with me too!) but happy to say, that was well over a decade ago & I not only trust him with myself, but he's my safest horse that I trust - & have been proven right to - with nervous & inexperienced kids.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I've known 2 horses with this problem. The first horse was a young Arabian mare. She was bronco bucked by some idiots. She was fine with ground work but the moment someone leaned on her back she would freak out. Her owner did not help the issue by tying her to two trees and attempting to mount. She would also freak if you put a giant stuffed toy in the saddle. Her owner decided to make her a broodmare. 

I rescued an older mare with the same issue, unknown to me at the time. I suspect she was beaten, as she had zero trust in people. I learned over her back every day and gave her cookies for standing quietly. We did lots of ground work and i basically restarted her from scratch. 

I've had two other horses that freaked out on mounting but it was more of a one time thing. One was a young gelding, another a mare out of a feedlot. The mare clearly had training but had many years off. 

My advice is to restart on the ground. Try putting a stuffed toy in the saddle and/or a weighted backpack. Either work the horse with its buddies tied to the fence, or separate that horse and leave him separate for a few weeks. I would also pony this horse off another, so he gets used to seeing a rider above him. I believe Monty Roberts uses a stuffed fake person, or even fake legs for starting difficult horses. 

You cannot train a horse that is freaking out from being separated. Work on the separation anxiety separately from the under saddle work. It's ok to separate for groundwork, but not when working on mounting.

My main inclination is that this is a training issue.


----------



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I'm also inclined to think this is a training issue. It sounds to me that this horse "has his rider's number" and has learned that explosive behavior results in more time with his buddies. Depending on the rider's experience, this could be a relatively simple thing to cure - merely teaching the horse that blowing up gets him nowhere, but this is easier said than done - or something that the pair will never recover from. True, the horse could be sent away to a trainer - but respect and learning to be ridden without fear are not transferrable. The trainer could make great headway and turn this horse around ... then it goes back to the rider who starts having issues days, weeks, or months after the horse gets back because the horse has learned that with this person I can get away with x behavior. I had a woman in Nevada who paid me to retrain all 3 of her horses, every one of which had various issues under saddle (bolting, barn sour, bucking, etc). I told her that sure, I could easily retrain the horses, but unless she changed the way she rode and handled these horses, the problems would eventually return. Sure enough, within 6 months all three of them were right back where they started. She refused to be more assertive when the horses started getting belligerent, and therefore they knew they could take advantage of her. Within 5 minutes of me hopping back on, they were once more respectable citizens because I had taught them that that sort of nonsense isn't acceptable with me. 

So it's really up to you, OP .... are you proficient enough to retrain this horse? Are you willing to change the way you handle his fits? Or would it be better for all involved to sell him or send him to someone who can work through that?

-- Kai


----------



## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I completely understand the cost of the horse vs. training them or having expensive medical work done. We don't all have deep pockets and can ship a horse around to all the guru vets to get a treatment.

To keep this short I have a couple of thoughts.

- Ulcers. Does this horse have a sour stomach and/or ulcers and could it be treated with the proper feed.

- There could be some serious holes in this horse's ground work. I've seen a gorgeous well bread mare (mine) headed for a rodeo bronc career turned around with dedicated driving and ground work.

Trainers are dicey. A lot of people can train a good horse to be a good horse. I'm not as confident in saying any trainer can teach a troubled horse to be a good horse. 

If you are in Texas or can justify the expense the only trainer I can personally recommend is Ashely Dunn. She gets to the bottom of why a horse is acting up and will bring them back. If you let her do her job, when she is done, you won't believe how good they are. 

Ashely Dunn, sbafarm.com


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

He's not my horse, but the owner is a friend of mine. I went out and messed with him last night, and if you get anywhere near the position from which one would mount, he jumps away. I spent an hour hopping up and down next to him with my hands on his back before he didn't flinch and try to take off. Leaned my arms over his back with both feet on the ground and he's just shaking. Move a bit, and he's ten feet away. Start all over. Rinse and repeat. Any weight at all or any thought that he thinks you will, and he's gone, even without a saddle on him. Yet the vet and chiropractor leaned, pressed, prodded and manipulated and he was just fine.

He's fine for grooming and doesn't mind pressure from the brush. He's infinitely flexible and can scratch an itch on the dock of his tail with his teeth. When I pulled up, he was bucking and galloping around the pasture. His groundwork is good, and he flexes and moves away nicely, stops, etc. He is now giving the 'hairy eyeball' when being saddled, but stands for it and is fine with the saddle for groundwork, standing tied, etc. It's only when he thinks you're going to get on that he's a totally different horse.

He's a very nervous horse. Drop a brush and he spooks. Sneeze and he spooks. Open a pop can and he jumps. You can go all over him with a stick and flag and he won't bat an eye, but if a cat is sitting ahead of the water tank, he won't go near it. Truck going by with a rattling trailer by the pasture? Not a problem. Crinkle a water bottle? Gone. Dog running up while out riding? Not a problem. Cell phone chirps? Spook. His spooks are lightning fast, but he only goes a step or two. The bucking and bolting is so far out of what he normally does, it just seems odd. 

He's not a BLM horse, I don't believe. No brand, and the guy at the auction where she bought him off the kill lot said the owner had several horses she'd had since foals, but hadn't done much with them. He's not bad to ride once you're on-- he knows how to turn, speed up, slow down, and back-- but right now, there is no way he's going to let anybody on him. He stood fine for mounting for two months, then a huge explosion-- repeatedly. It's not like he was progressively getting squirrely or anything. Local horse trainer came by just to see him, and said there's no way he'd get on that horse, and I don't blame him. Whatever happened scared or hurt the heck out of this horse and now he wants no part of it. 

I don't mind working with him with her, but I do understand where she's coming from. She could have been very badly hurt. A horse that takes off on mounting is beyond dangerous because there's not much you can do with one foot in the stirrup and one in the air. She's middle-aged and has a bad knee and bad back-- she needs a horse that stands no matter what. She's got limited funds, and for what she'll be spending on possibly fixing him (ulcerguard, xrays, lots and lots of training, possibly new saddle) she could have a horse that doesn't have this problem-- and that's saying he's fixable. Or she could spend a ton, not fix the problem, and now not be able to afford another horse after dumping thousands into this one. She's also lost confidence because he was doing great for a couple of months-- riding well, starting to improve on his issues, and now this out of the blue. In her mind, what's to say that won't happen with another horse if she gets one? 

She's a good rider. If he tried being obnoxious once she was on him, it wouldn't be a big deal. He's expected to have manners and not be a butt, so it's not like he's getting away with stuff. It's like a flip was switched and now he thinks being ridden is going to kill him, and since he's managed to dump her half a dozen times, if he thinks along those lines, he now knows it works. I'm inclined to think pain, but whether it's fixable or easily found is up for debate. This is not horse country. It will cost thousands and a lot of trailering to get to the bottom of it. But at the same time, his future is not a bright one unless he gets over this. We're in a drought. Pastures are drying up. Hay is in short supply and expensive. Good horses will be free or cheap-- this one will end up on a truck to Mexico if she sells him, one way or another :-(


----------



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Aaaah that's a shame. Hope the owner can come up with a solution. : (

-- Kai


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

That was good of you to try to help. 

We had a bad drought here last year, and finding hay was hard but not impossible. I did have to switch to round bales though.

IMO if she can't afford to keep him as a pasture pal of a pack horse, maybe the kindest thing would be euthanasia.


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

She's going to put a month or two of good groundwork into him and see what happens. If it's an injury, that should give him some time to heal up, and some work on the fear and spooking certainly can't hurt. If no change after that time, she will need to make some hard decisions. 

Last night I hung out with him in his pen when I went to check my horses. He's a sweet horse and followed me around like a big puppy dog. Pressing on his back got no response. Leaning on his back got no response. Sitting on the rail of his pen above him got him running to the opposite corner and facing away. Got down off the fence and he came back over for scritches. 

My friend says "it's like a mountain lion attacked him and now he thinks a rider is going to." That's exactly what it's like. He literally thinks a rider is going to kill him. Just seems so weird as I rode him a few days before he decided riders were evil and blew up with her, and he was just fine, so I KNOW this is a new thing for him.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

So if it IS a new, 'out of the blue' type thing, again, I stress that it's likely pain related. Ruling out further pain/treating it FIRST is what I'd be doing, as depending on the prob, 'rest' isn't necessarily going to fix it, so a month of groundwork may just put off the inevitable. And he's apparently fine with groundwork anyway. 

If he's a generally nervous horse anyway, whatever it was could have just been 'the final straw'. He may benefit from better balanced nutrition & maybe extra magnesium or other 'calming supp'. I'd consider that carefully, sooner rather than later too.

It could have been a momentary painful affair though, such as something spiking him thru his saddle pad. That he has 'superstitiously' associated with being ridden so thinks that will cause it again. So long as there's no ongoing physical issue, this can be worked through by 'approach & retreat' style training at wherever HE is up to, being careful to always retreat *before* he gets too nervous/reactive, so you can start to replace those frightening associations with good ones.


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I don't really think that it is fair to the horse to just euthanize or send to the auction as an unridable horse because he was bought for only 300.00. What kind of thinking is that? You either spend that 300. and train them yourself if you are capable or you buy yourself a bombproof, been there done that horse that someone else has put the work into and pay the thousands. If the horse is young, sound, and no major conformation faults that would prevent him from being useful send him to a trainer. Or, sell him to someone that knows how to train this issue out of him. A 300. dollar horse is worth thousands after he is turned into a been there done that horse, is sound, and has no health issues.

I am inclined to think that the right person can train this out of him being as he's a calm horse and relatively easy to work with in all other ways. I am also inclined to think that the behavior probably started out with something really bugging him until he couldn't stand it anymore and now he's seen that there is profit in doing what he does.

A lot of horses will put up with a bad saddle fit but some don't. One of my mares will let you know right away if she doesn't like a saddle. There have been times when I tried a new saddle (with nothing obviously wrong with the fit) on her and she gets really ****y. Nothing explosive but just acting out. As soon as I would take the saddle off of her and hop on bareback she was great. Put her old saddle on and she's great. She hates a bad fitting saddle and will let you know right away. I'm not saying that the owner of this horse should hop on bareback. I'm just giving an example.


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> She's going to put a month or two of good groundwork into him and see what happens. If it's an injury, that should give him some time to heal up, and some work on the fear and spooking certainly can't hurt. If no change after that time, she will need to make some hard decisions.
> 
> Last night I hung out with him in his pen when I went to check my horses. He's a sweet horse and followed me around like a big puppy dog. Pressing on his back got no response. Leaning on his back got no response. Sitting on the rail of his pen above him got him running to the opposite corner and facing away. Got down off the fence and he came back over for scritches.
> 
> My friend says "it's like a mountain lion attacked him and now he thinks a rider is going to." That's exactly what it's like. He literally thinks a rider is going to kill him. Just seems so weird as I rode him a few days before he decided riders were evil and blew up with her, and he was just fine, so I KNOW this is a new thing for him.


I would start with that then. Have someone hold him and have someone else sit up on the fence. Don't let him leave. Or, you can sit up on the fence and have someone holding him farther away where he is comfortable and walk him a few steps in that direction, walk away, walk towards, walk away, walk towards until each time he goes toward the person on the fence he's getting closer and closer. Might help to have the saddle on too while you are doing this. When he's by the fence right next to the person on the fence, give him something tasty. It might take more than one session of this, it might take a few but baby steps work pretty well with horses.


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Spent some time with him last night. If you take him out of the pasture, he breaks out in a nervous sweat away from his friends. I worked with him and got him soft and relaxed. Let him graze a bit. Rubbed on him, lead him back to the barn and halfway there he blew up. Walking along just fine, then bang-- tried to bolt and run back. Got him stopped and he's shaking and sweating again. It's really weird. I put him in the roundpen thinking to put him to work a bit so he didn't think going back was such a huge reward. He went around fine, changed directions, stopped. I let him stand a bit, went next to him and hopped up and down a bit by his left side and he took off and tried to go over the 6' walls, then went around that pen frantically for TEN MINUTES before he slowed down and settled. Put him back on a lead shank and do it and he gets nervous but didn't run. Took the halter back off, rinse and repeat. I climbed up on the fence to watch him awhile and he stood at the other side of the pen and just shook and dripped sweat.

It's the weirdest thing I've ever seen. Like somebody switched this horse with another for him to go from nice saddle horse to willing to kill himself to avoid anything that he thinks might result in someone getting on him. 

I hosed him off and tied him, and he was just fine. Threw a saddle on him and he didn't bat an eye. He's getting a magnesium supplement in case that's part of the issue, but I think this goes a lot deeper than that.


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

LoriF, in an ideal world, you're right-- but this isn't an ideal world. The issue here is that she couldn't afford a several-thousand-dollar horse, nor can most people around here that have horses. Most horses sell for $500 - $1500. And he did seem like a nice, broke horse. Green, but you could get on and ride him and the rest wasn't a concern and she's fully capable of taking a green horse to a finished horse. He was a lot of fun when I rode him, went down the road nice as you please. Now you can't get on him. That's the problem. Not only can you not get on him, but he'll go through fences to get back to his herd.

And nobody is going to want a mustang you can't get on; it just isn't going to happen. If you can't ride him, he's got no future. 

Two trainers have looked at him and said they won't take him. 

We live in a very rural area. It's not like there are specialized equine vets on every corner.


----------



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

SilverMaple said:


> she bought him off the kill lot





SilverMaple said:


> It's like a flip was switched





SilverMaple said:


> Not only can you not get on him, but he'll go through fences to get back to his herd.





SilverMaple said:


> lead him back to the barn and halfway there he blew up. Walking along just fine, then bang-- tried to bolt and run back


These are all red flag statements to me, saying this is not just an ordinary issue. This horse is a massive safety issue at this point. For me, a horse that is going to flip out to the point it goes through fences shows a lack of concern for it's own safety, forget mine or anything else around it.

Sometimes there is a reason an animal is in a kill pen. While I don't agree with sending problem horses to auction or slaughter, many people do it.

If this was my horse, if I couldn't give him away to someone with full disclosure as either a pasture ornament or a training project for someone with appropriate skill level, I would euthanize him.

For me, the risks are not worth it. There are worse things than death.

Good luck to your friend. I hope that horse can find some peace and that she can find a safe riding horse to share her time with.


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

We've had two that do this. One was a dun mare, history unknown, sold to us for our son, who has a surprisingly good seat and temperament for horses, but little experience.

She'd be just fine, then just blow in two for no good reason, dump you in the dirt, run off... then come back to check on you.

She gave our daughter a concussion.

We traded her for Superman, our 'teacher horse', to a friend who is a roper and spends almost every day in the saddle... that dun mare was nuts. She nearly killed his pasture donk, and that donkey is tough!

She was sold at the next, nearest, auction.

The second is Sarge, our bay gelding. First time we tried to ride him, he kept backing up so we couldn't mount. It became a battle of wills - us not letting him win. We assumed it was a mix of him being in a new place, us not knowing him, and him not trusting us. Also, I found hidden under the last of his winter hair, a nasty sore/scabby/infected spot on his spine under where a saddle would sit, so I assumed that was hurting him. He got two weeks off while we doctored the last of his injuries (Acquired before we bought him)

Then he bucked Daughter's BF off... but it was questionable if he'd accidentally flanked Sarge with his boot while mounting. Also all the dogs were standing around, there was a lot going on in the yard, etc.

Then he tried to buck me off (he sucks at bucking - he can't get a lot of air, and even this noob rode it out and got him under control). I blamed it on the neighbor kid for racing up dead behind us, in Sarge's blindspot, upwind, on a 30mph day, on his bike, then yelling something incoherent at us at the top of his lungs.

A butt chewing commenced once I got Sarge settled down.

Then he got into the habit of trying to buck when we wouldn't let him go back to the barn, or made him leave the barn on a ride. 

So we obliged him in the round pen and put him to work. He soon learned he was going to get worn out bucking and STILL rode... only then he'd be tired and we weren't giving up. It took three or four times of that to get him to knock it off.

I say all that because Sarge's issues are A. He somehow became IMMEDIATELY BUDDY SOURED to a mare he'd never seen until my daughter bought her and brought her home - they acted like long lost/separated dam and foal; B. He's barn soured on top of that; C. He's lazy; D. He's not real bright, but it appears he thought he could spook us into not riding him. Calmly, unemotionally (As in not angrily) making him WORK it off seems to be the best way to deter his bad behavior. (That doesn't work with some of our other horses, but it does with him)

So, TL;dr, I know, but... I'm wondering if its a training thing, since pain seems to have been ruled out.

Alternatively, it may just be a 'bucking' horse, like that dun mare we had.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that sometimes horses wind up on a kill truck for good reason.

A horse who is so buddy sour that he runs through fences, is not ready to learn anything, until he learns to control his emotions, accept being separated, and learn to relax while separated. Until he gets to that stage, he is in reactive, non thinking mode
Worth to see if regular ground work will help selvage the hrose, but the place to start, is right back to some tying sessions, alone, until he eventually will stand there quietly and relaxed


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SilverMaple said:


> If you take him out of the pasture, he breaks out in a nervous sweat away from his friends. I worked with him and got him soft and relaxed. Let him graze a bit. Rubbed on him, lead him back to the barn and halfway there he blew up.


Is this new behaviour too? Either something frightening has happened that's caused him to fear leaving his mates with a human(maybe 'just' the riding thing) or again, it's something physical - either injury/illness putting him on edge about everything, or nutritional - yes, that can absolutely explain it, if they're deficient in Mg or too high in K for eg.

Whatever, whether new behaviour or not, if he is obviously so terrified to leave his friends, then I wouldn't be doing this 'cold turkey'. To force him to do stuff when he's terrified is only further cementing the association between you/people/Work and frightening, horrible experience. You want to avoid or at least minimise his 'practice' with those associations & instead 'practice' replacing those associations with Good Stuff. The way to get 'people'(of whatever species) over their fears & to build confidence is to introduce them to it at levels they *aren't* too overwhelmed with. Gradually work forward from there, building on *successes*. 

If you instead try to 'flood'(behavioural term) him to get him desensitised, he may well become 'quiet' & 'obedient' but because he's 'shut down' mentally... like the calm before a storm & because he's still on edge, the smallest thing could be the 'final straw' that causes him to blow up. This sounds like how he's feeling ATM & perhaps previous training has taught him that.

So if taking him away from his friends is so terrifying, I'd make a practice of going & dealing with him in the paddock to start with, teach him that being with you is a Good Thing & Nice & Rewarding. Then take him out but still 'work' with him in a pleasant way close to his friends. *Gradually* build the 'difficulty' as he improves. If he does get trembly or otherwise reactive, realise you've gone too far, take a few steps back & continue forward again slower. So if you took him out & he was nervous but not so much you weren't able to calm him down, that's good. But after getting him relaxed, he should have been taken immediately back to his friends - don't try for 'that little bit more' as IME that's often 'the final straw' which is too much.



> Got him stopped and he's shaking and sweating again. It's really weird. I put him in the roundpen thinking to put him to work a bit so he didn't think going back was such a huge reward.


Put yourself in his shoes... say you were a young child to whom everything away from your family was still scary - or had become that way due to some bad past experiences. So someone(who you don't trust or understand well) takes you away from your family, you get frightened, you start to panic & 'carry on'. Do you think it would make it any better if the person then started 'making you work', forced you to run around? Do you think you'd feel any less 'rewarded' when they finally took you back to your family? Do you think it would make you feel better/ok about going out with them the next day? 



> He went around fine, changed directions, stopped. I let him stand a bit, went next to him and hopped up and down a bit by his left side and he took off and tried to go over the 6' walls


So... we all have a 'breaking point'. We can all put up with a certain amount. If his previous training has forced him into putting up with stuff without actually becoming comfortable, relaxed about it, he may put up with a lot, without *obvious* reaction(but look at the small signs - his eyes, his stance, his breathing). But then, 'suddenly, out of the blue, for no good reason, he explodes. That's because it was all gradually mounting & what tipped the balance may have only been a 'straw' on a camel, but it wasn't out of the blue, it was just that you didn't recognise that it was all getting too much for him well before that point. 



> I hosed him off and tied him, and he was just fine. Threw a saddle on him and he didn't bat an eye. He's getting a magnesium supplement in case that's part of the issue, but I think this goes a lot deeper than that.


Above is all about approaching it as a training/emotional problem. From that perspective, I don't find his behaviour at all 'weird' actually. But if it's such a massive, sudden change in behaviour... even if he has been now reinforced many times for the emotion/response, I'd be getting a vet to do a full workup. Could even be something neurological...


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

He isn't showing symptoms of stress otherwise, though. I've worked with a lot of horses. I've started dozens of horses. He is, for lack of a better term, 'bi-polar' in these reactions. And it's all a new thing, which is even stranger. Soft eyes, relaxed stance, even breathing and then he goes into fearful eyes, tense, rapid breathing in a heartbeat without any apparent trigger. And the same thing which triggers him one day may not the next, and then it will the day after. He's just very hard to get a 'read' on. 

I do think this is all anxiety-related --although why he would go from being able to be taken from the herd and ridden easily to this within a couple of days is the stumbling block. It's almost like he was so traumatized at his earlier home, he saw people as his safety zone-- then he had a few days where he wasn't handled and for whatever reason, now people are scary and only those other horses are his safety net. The only thing we can come up with is that the pasture is along a road and parts of it are not visible from the house-- perhaps a car stopped and someone tried to ride him and scared him to death. He is the smallest in the herd, and would be the first picked to 'hop on' on a dare... it seems far-fetched, but stranger things have happened. Although why he would be so completely traumatized as to now melt into a puddle of anxiety when removed from the pasture, or even when standing right next to his herdmates and presented with anything that could be construed as being mounted still doesn't add up. 



> So if taking him away from his friends is so terrifying, I'd make a practice of going & dealing with him in the paddock to start with, teach him that being with you is a Good Thing & Nice & Rewarding. Then take him out but still 'work' with him in a pleasant way close to his friends. *Gradually* build the 'difficulty' as he improves. If he does get trembly or otherwise reactive, realise you've gone too far, take a few steps back & continue forward again slower. So if you took him out & he was nervous but not so much you weren't able to calm him down, that's good. But after getting him relaxed, he should have been taken immediately back to his friends - don't try for 'that little bit more' as IME that's often 'the final straw' which is too much.


He is handled and worked with in his pasture daily, whether just caught and rubbed on and released, or messed with for a few minutes when the farm owners go feed the cats or check the fence or what have you. He's caught twice a day for feeding/grooming and is fine. One day he'll be a shaking mess the second he steps outside the fence away from the others, the next he'll be fine as long as he's not on the far end of the yard. Some days he's happy and calm and relaxed and a joy to mess with in the round pen and as nice a horse as you could want whether the other horses are nowhere in sight or right next to it, and then another day he'll be running around looking for a way out with no pressure whatsoever. And he was being taken back to his friends because he was doing so well and relaxed after working with him the other night. He was calm and soft and relaxed and blew on his way back halfway up the driveway. He landed himself in the roundpen (which is in the corner of the pasture) because scared or not, he cannot blow up and try to run people over or drag them across the yard to get back to his buddies, and I needed somewhere safe to get him back 'down' since it was getting dark and working a scared horse in an open yard in the dark is not exactly high on my list of safety tips. When he's not scared, he is soft and light and respectful and one of the nicest horses to work with on the ground I've been near. He has the softest, kindest eye when he's not worried, and hopefully we can get a lot more of that and a lot less of the 'I'm gonna die' expression again.

I do think this horse has been taught to not be reactive. I was visiting about him with a friend who rehabs Big Lick TWH's, and he says he sounds like the walkers that have been beaten for flinching or spooking and now shut down when stressed until they just can't take it anymore. The biggest issue is that what stresses him varies so much from day to day and moment to moment, and that this came on so suddenly. Either SOMETHING happened to destroy his trust in people completely, or he's got a neurological condition.... I hope it's the former and he can be rehabbed, as he's a big sweetie and a nice horse to be around when he's not freaking out. I have the feeling I'll end up with him. His owner's husband is threatening to shoot him. If I put a winter's worth of work in him and he's no better, at least I know we've done what we can.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SilverMaple said:


> And it's all a new thing, which is even stranger. Soft eyes, relaxed stance, even breathing and then he goes into fearful eyes, tense, rapid breathing in a heartbeat without any apparent trigger. And the same thing which triggers him one day may not the next, and then it will the day after.


You have told us that there ARE triggers, albeit small, in your opinion. I've explained that the erraticness of this could well be due to the way he was trained, that he may be 'shut down' in some instances, as your friend told of TWH's. But seriously, esp as this is new behaviour, rule out physical possibilities FIRST. Neurological or Lyme, or even serious nutritional imbalances could well cause a 'switch flipped' kind of situation.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Honesty he sounds much like my rescue Paso Fino. He was out of a national champion mare and stallion. He was the result of an embryo transfer - someone invested several thousand in him. But he doesn't gait well enough to be a show horse. 

It appears someone beat him for not gaiting well enough. He was then starved nearly to death. He has serious trust issues. if you approach him, he corners himself and shakes all over. 

Some things he knows well - he is brave on trail rides. Doesn't spook at anything. But he is scared of being near the barn. He leads really well, ties well, someone taught him lateral flexion from the ground. He seems to know what a bit is. But otherwise is very very green. 

Today I lunged him and he was calm and quiet. Tomorrow he will probably be a nervous wreck again. He doesn't train consistently. I think it would be much easier to start a horse from scratch then get him trained. He seems to have flashbacks. He totally thinks you are going to kill him. If i walk to the center of the round pen, he takes off at a gallop, even if you aren't looking at him. When you do get him to stop, he stands and shakes. 

He will load in the trailer if you run a lunge line into the trailer. He will not follow you in, nor will he self load yet. But he will follow the pressure from the rope... It feels like he should be able to self load... But he gets totally confused without the lunge line on him. 

He actually relaxes when you mount him. So whoever saddle broke him did something right. His fears are all centered on people on the ground. The one thing he doesn't do is whoa under saddle. He stops for two seconds and wants to move again.

He is absolutely terrified of ropes on the ground. Even the hose on the ground freaks him out. He doesn't go anywhere- he stands and shakes. In his mind he is completely convinced he is going to get beat at any second. 

The only thing that helps is clicker training. Most of my horses want to work for me- someone beat the try out of him. He doesn't have any motivation to do what you ask. On our first clicker training session, he looked at me like i was going to poison him. We are just getting to the point where he is starting to think instead of being totally shut down. 

For your friends horse, i would put the horse by itself for a few weeks and spend time working with it. You need to get the horse to feel confident by itself. It cannot learn if it is worried about its buddies.


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

4horses said:


> Honesty he sounds much like my rescue Paso Fino. He was out of a national champion mare and stallion. He was the result of an embryo transfer - someone invested several thousand in him. But he doesn't gait well enough to be a show horse.
> 
> It appears someone beat him for not gaiting well enough. He was then starved nearly to death. He has serious trust issues. if you approach him, he corners himself and shakes all over.
> 
> ...


Your Paso sounds exactly like my Paso except mine is still so worried under saddle I've taken him back to groundwork and am going to restart him completely. He is actually quite a bit like the mustang. Unfortunately, putting the horse by himself isn't feasible right now. Our situation is a pasture with my horses, the property owners horse, and my friends' horse. There's a round pen but no other way to separate the horses, and even if so, they'd still have to be turned out eventually, and even separated, they are still across the fence from the rest.

You are right in that it is much easier to train from scratch than to work with a horse with fear and trust issues. The colt I started for a friend about the same time I got my Paso a couple of months ago is miles ahead in terms of being broke and sane. I'm taking him to a fun show this weekend, and if he settles as I suspect he will, he'll do a class or two while I suspect the Paso will take all day to stop rearing and pawing by the trailer....


----------

