# Honest critique wanted: 2Yr old filly with dubious past



## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Hi all you knowledgable peoples...

As part of my current decision making process, I would really like some honest opinions of this filly, from people who don't know her personally.

But some info: 2 year old, filly, 15hh at the moment, mixed breed and as I said in the title, dubious past... Here she is when she arrived round Christmas, wild as a hare:



















Very skinny, and summer coat, albeit a very staring and rough coat due to the condition she was in.

Here she is now, gaining weight (slowly, on a vet approved diet), and in her winter coat.





































I hope these pics are ok for critique, was alone, and kind of in a hurry... bad me. And I forgot to take any from the other side... 

And for those of you that remember her, and helped me pick her way back when... I hope this thread also serves as an update: she is doing so well! And I am more than relieved not to be able to see every bone in her spine anymore...

Thanks so much for looking!


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

I like her.

What I like most is she looks like a filly.....I did not have to think about it.

Nice head and neck.

She is worth putting some time and money in.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

She looks better and will continue to improve. With some proper work she should shape up better also when she starts developing some muscle tone. The thing that sticks out as a neg. is her hind end and legs. They just don't look right to me.

Are you doing anything with her to develope some balance and shape her up a bit?


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks so much Ripper and Churumbeque for your quick and positive responses.

Yes, her hind end and legs have had me up at night, I don't really know enough about the skeletal structure of horses though, to be able to see what is going on.
I haven't done much with her at all, due to her age and condition. As she was unhandle-able when she arrived, its been about groundwork, trust exercises, join-up and especially, learning to stand for the farrier.

But, I am sooo up for suggestions, Churumbeque, what exercises would you suggest for her at this point? Any help would be appreciated so much...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ist off I am not about lunging or round penning for exercise but more for training. You horse is immature physically and I would treat her as such.
Either round penning or lunging I would work on getting her to do a relax extended walk where she can get her body freed up and moving. Work on her length of stride in the rear being equal to length of stride in the front end.

It took me a long time to learn this but it has been some of the most valuable things I have learned. 

Voice commands are important to get down pat so they don't break gait when you push them on and get them to use there hind end. You will need to push her forward with a lunge whip and not break into a trot to get a good extended walk.

I then would work on lengthening the trot with expecting her to take some time and conditioning to be able to do it for any length of time. It is important that she keeps her head down and relaxed so as not to develop the underside of her neck.

I would also get skilled at long lining so you can get more control as your training progresses. But I don't want to bombard you with information all at once.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

So I am posting 2 different pictures so you get an idea. The driving picture she is pulling her around by her front end. Look at her length of stride, the front is much larger than the rear and she is out of balance.

I spent many months trying to improve her balance and stride and as you can see her stride is much nicer in the lunging photo. Both of these photo's are when she was 3 in the early stages of training.

Had I known more ab9out stride I would have started working on this on the ground though as a yearling. I also keep my circles large so not to stress her legs


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Nice job on her so far. In the next 1-2 years she is going to look a lot better as she gets more mature and muscled up. She should look more balanced in time.

The one thing that I am seeing is she is sickled hocked on the back end. Also, front pasterns look a bit more angled than they should be - but this may be the trim or the way she is standing since she isn't fully squared up.

What would you like to do with her in the future?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm not going to pick on her confo, as I've seen people fall out of love with a perfectly good horse because of someone picking on small or even large faults that don't affect the way the horse goes or its soundness. 

She's a lovely looking little filly who is going to grow up and fill out and be very nice to own. Do you have a 2nd horse who is under saddle, that you either own or can use, to pony her around with? Taking her out on a pony line and riding with her, everywhere over every kind of terrain you can think of, will do WONDERS for her over all shape and it will start getting her ready to be a steady, unflappable mount.


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

there is definitely something off about her back end. She has a very small him compared to the proportions of the rest of her body and she looks like she might be a little cow-hocked. Her hips might just need proper development to look nicer and once her body and weight get regulated to whatever her job will be, I think, she will start to shape up nicely. In all she is a very lovely looking horse.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Again, thanks to all of you for your wonderful and positive comments...

You cannot imagine how much I appreciate it! Its the first time I have taken on a horse like this, and I've been worried sick about some thing or another along the way... and its just so amazing to hear people say that it will end up ok. This is truly why I love this forum, its the honesty, the knowledge and more than all that, its the compassion that one receives that really helps a lot of people that feel overwhelmed in a situation. Its certainly helping me.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

churumbeque said:


> So I am posting 2 different pictures so you get an idea. The driving picture she is pulling her around by her front end. Look at her length of stride, the front is much larger than the rear and she is out of balance.
> 
> I spent many months trying to improve her balance and stride and as you can see her stride is much nicer in the lunging photo. Both of these photo's are when she was 3 in the early stages of training.
> 
> Had I known more ab9out stride I would have started working on this on the ground though as a yearling. I also keep my circles large so not to stress her legs


thanks so much for your suggestions and for taking the time to post them... I have already started booking bi-monthly 'lessons' with this filly with one of my instructors, of which we have already had one lesson (mostly centered around trust and desensitisation), but I will also show him your comments, so that even if I will struggle on my own, he can work with me to effectively be able to achieve the extension and balance that you mentioned. So don't worry about bombarding me... I am taking notes


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm not going to pick on her confo, as I've seen people fall out of love with a perfectly good horse because of someone picking on small or even large faults that don't affect the way the horse goes or its soundness.
> 
> She's a lovely looking little filly who is going to grow up and fill out and be very nice to own. Do you have a 2nd horse who is under saddle, that you either own or can use, to pony her around with? Taking her out on a pony line and riding with her, everywhere over every kind of terrain you can think of, will do WONDERS for her over all shape and it will start getting her ready to be a steady, unflappable mount.


Your first sentence is one of the most amazing things I have read in a while (especially for the state of mind I am in right now), I will definitely remember it and quote you on that if I may! 

As for ponying her, it actually just thought about it today as well, and I was wondering whether it would be beneficial... so I will definitely start doing that! Thanks so much for the suggestion. 

She certainly does battle a lot with being nervous about a lot of things, she was kept in a small pen for almost two years before she came to me, so its almost like she's been in a sensory deprivation tank in a manner of speaking. 

I have started taking her out on hand-walks on trails recently, and although it started out pretty nerve-wracking, she has made a bunch of progress, which I am so proud of her for.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Cat said:


> Nice job on her so far. In the next 1-2 years she is going to look a lot better as she gets more mature and muscled up. She should look more balanced in time.
> 
> The one thing that I am seeing is she is sickled hocked on the back end. Also, front pasterns look a bit more angled than they should be - but this may be the trim or the way she is standing since she isn't fully squared up.
> 
> What would you like to do with her in the future?


I didnt get her for a particular job... I just wanted to help out at that point. 

But I ride English, and I wouldn't mind her being a trail companion/pleasure horse and do some lower level competing, in whatever, for fun. If there is something in particular she takes to, I'm all for that!


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Nuala said:


> there is definitely something off about her back end. She has a very small him compared to the proportions of the rest of her body and she looks like she might be a little cow-hocked. Her hips might just need proper development to look nicer and once her body and weight get regulated to whatever her job will be, I think, she will start to shape up nicely. In all she is a very lovely looking horse.


Yes, her butt has been a source of worry for me... but I am feeling a lot better now than before I posted this thread... and really inspired to start working instead of just worrying, if that makes sense.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

churumbeque said:


> So I am posting 2 different pictures so you get an idea. The driving picture she is pulling her around by her front end. Look at her length of stride, the front is much larger than the rear and she is out of balance.
> 
> I spent many months trying to improve her balance and stride and as you can see her stride is much nicer in the lunging photo. Both of these photo's are when she was 3 in the early stages of training.
> 
> Had I known more ab9out stride I would have started working on this on the ground though as a yearling. I also keep my circles large so not to stress her legs


Excellent advise.

I pulled a little skid with my halter horses along with work in a round pen.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

muumi said:


> Yes, her butt has been a source of worry for me... but I am feeling a lot better now than before I posted this thread... and really inspired to start working instead of just worrying, if that makes sense.


All horses her age will be growing.

And they all will have faults.


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## Jierda (May 18, 2012)

She looks lovely to me.. Since she's a youngster she's still missing all the muscle that will make her really pretty. I'd guess she has some Quarter in her as she's slightly overbuilt, and most Quarters are. This makes her a bit less suitable for dressage (mainly high degrees of collection), but you said that was not your plan for her, so no biggie. The cow-hocked thing is so slight, that I don't think it will ever be a problem. It might just be a posture thing due to lack or increased tension (unlikely in a young one) of muscles that will completely disappear as you start working her. The way horses hold their body (and where they put their feet) doesn't necessarily have to be a conformation problem, unless they consistently show it as they progress through training (my horse has his front feet slightly turned to the inside, but it doesn't bother him or us in any way).


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

her back legs do look a little off to me but....shes a 2 yr old and shes growing so im guessing alot of what looks hinky to me is that she is growing so her hind end in that picture is higher. she looks great tho! gotta love Palis! i think once you get some more muscle built up shell start shaping up better and be one BEAUTIFUL mare!


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> *I'm not going to pick on her confo, as I've seen people fall out of love with a perfectly good horse because of someone picking on small or even large faults that don't affect the way the horse goes or its soundness. *
> 
> She's a lovely looking little filly who is going to grow up and fill out and be very nice to own. Do you have a 2nd horse who is under saddle, that you either own or can use, to pony her around with? Taking her out on a pony line and riding with her, everywhere over every kind of terrain you can think of, will do WONDERS for her over all shape and it will start getting her ready to be a steady, unflappable mount.


That's the problem with asking for an "honest critique" if it's not what the asker wants (not saying that is the OP). I really don't understand the thought process involved in someone "falling out of love" with their horse just because of something that is said by someone else (especially if that commentary was specifically asked for)


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

If someone falls out of love of a horse over what someone says - they really weren't attached. If its not what someone says then eventually it will be because the horse did something wrong or some other superficial excuse.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

My honest opinion is she is a pretty little mare that looks well cared for now.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

themacpack said:


> That's the problem with asking for an "honest critique" if it's not what the asker wants (not saying that is the OP). I really don't understand the thought process involved in someone "falling out of love" with their horse just because of something that is said by someone else (especially if that commentary was specifically asked for)


I personally really appreciated that comment of Dreamcatchers... I asked for, and want, an honest critique... but I loved the perspective of somebody saying to me that she may have large faults, but that they may not be of consequence. Maybe it seems odd to you, but its exactly what I needed to hear, as I had been worrying myself sick about this horse and her future and mine.... does that make sense?


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

waresbear said:


> My honest opinion is she is a pretty little mare that looks well cared for now.


Thank you!


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I think she is a cutey and you have done a great job with her! Right now her hind legs look too long for her, but as she is still growing I wouldn't stress about it too much. She may grow out of it, or she may not, but I don't think it is likely to be a big problem for her if you are not looking for a high lever competition horse. She has a super cute face/neck too .


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

muumi said:


> I personally really appreciated that comment of Dreamcatchers... I asked for, and want, an honest critique... but I loved the perspective of somebody saying to me that she may have large faults, but that they may not be of consequence. Maybe it seems odd to you, but its exactly what I needed to hear, as I had been worrying myself sick about this horse and her future and mine.... does that make sense?


Honestly there is nothing there that is going to prevent her from doing most things at least at a lower level of competition. With her back end she may have a bit of a hard time collecting nicely for dressage, but with the right training and work you could probably even get her doing that decently well - it just won't be as easy as it is for some other horses with the build for it. Learning it though will probably help her all around and be good for her.

The only thing I don't think she would be able to do looking at her current pictures is carry a large amount of weight on her back. She just does not have that high weight carrying sturdy build & strong loins. But unless you are a very large rider, that won't be an issue either. 

I see horses with a similar build to hers on the trails all the time and they can go all day long for their owners.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Cat said:


> Honestly there is nothing there that is going to prevent her from doing most things at least at a lower level of competition. With her back end she may have a bit of a hard time collecting nicely for dressage, but with the right training and work you could probably even get her doing that decently well - it just won't be as easy as it is for some other horses with the build for it. Learning it though will probably help her all around and be good for her.
> 
> The only thing I don't think she would be able to do looking at her current pictures is carry a large amount of weight on her back. She just does not have that high weight carrying sturdy build & strong loins. But unless you are a very large rider, that won't be an issue either.
> 
> I see horses with a similar build to hers on the trails all the time and they can go all day long for their owners.


Thank you for your wisdom!
I will keep it all in mind... I love dressage, so she will definitely get more than her fair share of that once she starts under saddle.

But I really appreciate all the comments, especially since everybody seems to imply that she is worth putting some time and money into. 

I think my nerves are due to the fact that its become so hammered into our consciousness that conformation and breeding is almost everything, that I started being unable to see the woods for the trees. 

And thanks everyone for giving me the insight that even very imperfect horses can be just perfect for what they need to do. And if she can be a kick-*** trail-BFF-buddy someday, then I would feel that she was definitely worth 'saving'.

I am definitely going to start doing a bit of work with her, to try build some muscle and balance.... and then I'll post another update in due time!


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

I would like to start by asking how long have you had her?

And to say that I really like her and don't see anything glaring.

Super Nova


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

A wise horseman once said, "Look at the horse at 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months and then not again til 3 years.". What he meant was avoid being over critical at the gawky stages (yearling uglies ring a bell?) and to wait until the horse has had time to develop a bit once they've past the "baby adorable" phase. This little filly is only 2 and still growing, which she'll likely do until she's 5 PLUS she's being rehabbed from being uncared for. She looks a whole lot better than she did in her first 2 pics and in 6 more months she'll look a whole lot better than she did in the 2nd set of pics. Because she was not cared for, she may lack the tone in her legs to correct the cow hocked stance that many young horses have in the beginning. They lose that stance once they are steady on their feet, eating well and playing to build the muscle and tone needed to hold their legs straight. If she was kept in a small corral or stall, she may not have ever had the chance to correct that. 

So rather than say something that may end up not true later on, I want to wait and see this filly again in 6 months and at that point I may say something. Right now I don't see anything wrong with her that good groceries, exercise and time won't cure. 

We DO get so wrapped around in pedigrees and bloodlines that we miss a perfectly good animal standing in front of us, and I'm one of the WORST in that regard. Helping out an animal who doesn't have all your "must have criteria" is pretty pure selflessness and needs to be applauded. Good job Muumi, she's looking awesome, keep it up.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Super Nova said:


> I would like to start by asking how long have you had her?
> 
> And to say that I really like her and don't see anything glaring.
> 
> Super Nova


She arrived round Christmas last year, so late December...

And yay! thank you!


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> A wise horseman once said, "Look at the horse at 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months and then not again til 3 years.". What he meant was avoid being over critical at the gawky stages (yearling uglies ring a bell?) and to wait until the horse has had time to develop a bit once they've past the "baby adorable" phase. This little filly is only 2 and still growing, which she'll likely do until she's 5 PLUS she's being rehabbed from being uncared for. She looks a whole lot better than she did in her first 2 pics and in 6 more months she'll look a whole lot better than she did in the 2nd set of pics. Because she was not cared for, she may lack the tone in her legs to correct the cow hocked stance that many young horses have in the beginning. They lose that stance once they are steady on their feet, eating well and playing to build the muscle and tone needed to hold their legs straight. If she was kept in a small corral or stall, she may not have ever had the chance to correct that.
> 
> So rather than say something that may end up not true later on, I want to wait and see this filly again in 6 months and at that point I may say something. Right now I don't see anything wrong with her that good groceries, exercise and time won't cure.
> 
> We DO get so wrapped around in pedigrees and bloodlines that we miss a perfectly good animal standing in front of us, and I'm one of the WORST in that regard. Helping out an animal who doesn't have all your "must have criteria" is pretty pure selflessness and needs to be applauded. Good job Muumi, she's looking awesome, keep it up.


Thanks so much for your kind and awesome words... they are really helping me to get a little more grounded and a lot less stressed.

Before I picked her up, I went to visit all the youngsters at the facilities where they were kept to pick her, and as far as I could see, they were kept their entire lives in small pens, so when she arrived home with me, what struck me was that more than just being skinny, she just had no muscle whatsoever... her neck was hollow, from the back her thighs were gaunt, her chestbone stuck out, and I could see every bone in her spine. 

It was so hard for me to pick one of the youngsters back then... they were all really scared and in bad shape, and it was a very overwhelming situation for me, that I didn't feel in control of.

Ugh... I have a lot to say about where she came from, etc... but its just quite hard to talk about.

Anyway, you're right... I realise now that I'm judging her at the worst possible time now... she is starting to fill out in all the previously hollow places, but she is far from developed, and on top of that, she is still growing. 

I think I will stop worrying for now... and start exercising her more actively, as many people suggested, and keep up with the groceries, and then update in 6 months or so... hopefully it will be a pleasant surprise!

She is a terribly sweet little lady... with regards to her personality, I couldn't really have asked for anything more.

Thanks so much for your input and support, Dreamcatcher, it means a lot to me.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

muumi said:


> She arrived round Christmas last year, so late December...
> 
> And yay! thank you!


When was the last time she was wormed?

Her belly looks a little round.......do you know if she was with a stud?

Super Nova


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Super Nova said:


> When was the last time she was wormed?
> 
> Her belly looks a little round.......do you know if she was with a stud?
> 
> Super Nova


She's been wormed a couple times already, and again this weekend, but of course that is after these pictures were taken.

As to her being with a stud... I just had a mini heart attack there, because the honest truth is, I don't know for sure! When I visited her at the facility prior to adopting her, the fillies were in a separate pen to the colts... but that is all I know. What happened before and when they were separated, I cannot actually be sure of. 

I will speak to my vet about that possibility. 

I have noticed her pot belly, but I thought that was just the way she was gaining weight, first the tummy and then the rest. Could it still just be a hay belly?


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

While it does seem you've been deworming her frequently, what has she been wormed with and was there an FEC done to identify the parasites that you needed to target? If she is carrying a parasite load that is not addressed by the product(s) you have used you are just throwing away money on a "cure" that doesn't address the ill ;-)


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

Somes times horses develop a pot belly when there protein is not high enough......in other words if you have a low quality hay that is coarse this could also create a pot belly.

Super Nova


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Super Nova said:


> Somes times horses develop a pot belly when there protein is not high enough......in other words if you have a low quality hay that is coarse this could also create a pot belly.
> 
> Super Nova


It's not the lack of protein - it's simply poor quality hay that doesn't process through the system.


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

I am late on this train, but I personally think she has a lot of potential. I love that light coat. It always makes a palomino look a little more magical. She definitely needs some more time and patience and needs some more on her bones, but she looks SO much better than her first pics.

And I have to say...I'm very curious about the "dubious past" part. haha


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

OP, she looks like a different horse, you have done a wonderful job with her! She's still a baby and still looks a little gangly, she'll be a nice horse once she's done growing.

In response to the following:



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm not going to pick on her confo, as I've seen people fall out of love with a perfectly good horse because of someone picking on small or even large faults that don't affect the way the horse goes or its soundness.


I agree somewhat with this statement and I'm glad you brought it up Dreamcatcher. Firstly, (barring major conformational flaws of course) most people are unlikely to truly _require _a conformationally perfect horse. Unless you are riding competitively in the mid to upper level echelons, or you are riding long and hard on a regular basis, minor conformational faults generally bear little significance to the average horse owner. Minor faults are unlikely to have much effect on a horse's ability to be a wonderful mount.

However, it is useful to know what those faults are, as in many cases the appropriate strengthening and/or training can have immense benefit to the horse, and therefore to the horse/rider combo. Getting the most out of what you have so to speak. So I think that honest critiques can be very useful, providing that the person receiving the critique is prepared to be objective about their horse, rationally assess the information and possibly undertake a course of action that will complement the faults that are highlighted. 

To anyone that has fallen out of love with their horse due to a few conformational flaws - fall back in love cos trust me, most of us have less than perfect horses (we just don't like to admit it :wink.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

mls said:


> It's not the lack of protein - it's simply poor quality hay that doesn't process through the system.


I equate low protein with poor quality hay......although it is only one factor.

Super Nova


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

themacpack said:


> While it does seem you've been deworming her frequently, what has she been wormed with and was there an FEC done to identify the parasites that you needed to target? If she is carrying a parasite load that is not addressed by the product(s) you have used you are just throwing away money on a "cure" that doesn't address the ill ;-)


Yes, that is great advice... thanks so much! I haven't done a fecal for her, I will admit, and have only been deworming with the type of dewormer my vet suggests to me for the time of year etc. But it has been on my mind, and I will definitely ask for one now.



Super Nova said:


> Somes times horses develop a pot belly when there protein is not high enough......in other words if you have a low quality hay that is coarse this could also create a pot belly.
> 
> Super Nova


This could be a problem, as I am not sure about the nutritional content of our hay at the moment... we don't have as many options of hay, it seems, as you get in the US... in fact I think there are only two main types, of which Teff hay is the most popular. Anyway, I digress. I am about to make my next months order of feed and hay this week anyway, so I will ask if they can give me a breakdown of the nutritional value of it.



ThirteenAcres said:


> I am late on this train, but I personally think she has a lot of potential. I love that light coat. It always makes a palomino look a little more magical. She definitely needs some more time and patience and needs some more on her bones, but she looks SO much better than her first pics.
> 
> And I have to say...I'm very curious about the "dubious past" part. haha


Thank you! I also prefer the lighter palomino's to the darker ones, but I think its probably because I'm biased towards her a little bit... ha ha!

I was thinking I should mention her shady past, just for clarity, so here's a summarised version: (I find it quite hard to talk about, so I think I tend to avoid it as much as possible)

She's from a local facility that breeds a batch of horses each year to be used for medical testing... specifically, vaccine testing. The youngsters were usually sent to slaughter after they were used, so there were really no efforts made to ensure the horses would have futures as riding horses: they weren't trained, handled properly or anything like that. Due to public pressure, they started releasing the horses to the public to be adopted; have stopped breeding apparently; and are making efforts in eliminating using live horses from their program altogether. 

I'm not sure if I can/should post links or state names here on this forum, which is why I've been kind of careful about it. But if anyone is interested in knowing more... just let me know.



sarahver said:


> I agree somewhat with this statement and I'm glad you brought it up Dreamcatcher. Firstly, (barring major conformational flaws of course) most people are unlikely to truly _require _a conformationally perfect horse. Unless you are riding competitively in the mid to upper level echelons, or you are riding long and hard on a regular basis, minor conformational faults generally bear little significance to the average horse owner. Minor faults are unlikely to have much effect on a horse's ability to be a wonderful mount.
> 
> However, it is useful to know what those faults are, as in many cases the appropriate strengthening and/or training can have immense benefit to the horse, and therefore to the horse/rider combo. Getting the most out of what you have so to speak. So I think that honest critiques can be very useful, providing that the person receiving the critique is prepared to be objective about their horse, rationally assess the information and possibly undertake a course of action that will complement the faults that are highlighted.
> 
> To anyone that has fallen out of love with their horse due to a few conformational flaws - fall back in love cos trust me, most of us have less than perfect horses (we just don't like to admit it :wink.


Absolutely wonderfully said! I really feel like there are so many people who would benefit from reading this, as I have...

Thank you so so much!


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Well now, I feel like I made this thread awkward and scared everyone off when I explained where she's from, ha ha! (awkward laughter)

So... I'm just going to post a link here... and everyone can just read up about it if they want. I feel like no one believes me when I tell this tale, but I know it sounds pretty unbelievable I guess, IDK.


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