# Founder/laminitis on one hoof.



## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

How many degrees did she rotate? The degree, how soon it was caught, her tolerance along with treatment has a lot to do with the outcome. What does your vet recommend?


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## OwnedByAlli (Nov 8, 2011)

Horses can get laminitis in only one foot, and the suspensory ligament damage could have prompted that foot to get laminitis because it would seem logical more pressure would be put on the other structures in the hoof?

First things first, she needs to lose weight and stay slimer in the future. Overweight horses are way more likely to get laminitis than slim ones. They get laminitis when the lamini (they support the coffin bone by attatching it to the hoof wall) become inflamed and weakened, and start separating from the coffin bone. Founder is when the lamini are so weakened the coffin bone is no longer supported and rotates.

Now she is at the vets, they will provide the best short term care possible, I would be asking them tonnes of questions about how to keep her in the short and long term. They'll probably say she will need limited grazing, a very low starch and sugar diet, strict weight watching and probably therapeutic shoeing/trimming. The vets will, of course, be able to give better advice than us folk on the internet as they are vets and know exactly what condition that particular mare is in.

I really hope your mare pulls through, shes so pretty!

(Your english is really good btw!)


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

OwnedByAlli said:


> Horses can get laminitis in only one foot, and the suspensory ligament damage could have prompted that foot to get laminitis because it would seem logical more pressure would be put on the other structures in the hoof?
> 
> First things first, she needs to lose weight and stay slimer in the future. Overweight horses are way more likely to get laminitis than slim ones. They get laminitis when the lamini (they support the coffin bone by attatching it to the hoof wall) become inflamed and weakened, and start separating from the coffin bone. Founder is when the lamini are so weakened the coffin bone is no longer supported and rotates.
> 
> ...


She is already on a pretty low sugar and starch diet. We analyzed the hay she gets and it is about 7 % sugar/starch.

There is not much grass in the field. And the grass that is there is overgrown, and she barley eats it. She started to loose weight fast a few weeks ago, so we started to feed her the hay with 7 % sugar/starch.

Since she has a baby by her side, we did not want her to loose weight too fast. We where worried that she would stop producing milk. 

She has never been fat before, I always kept her on a low sugar diet, lots of training. 

But yes, she is to heavy now. You can still feel her ribs though. 

She is already getting her feet done by a farrier that shoes at clinics and he works together with one of the farriers at the clinic she's at right now.

If she pulls through. I will keep her in a paddock with no grass - if she gets healthy. 

But first she will be on box rest with deep bedding. Hay in a net and she will get therapeutic shoeing + trimming. 
I will order home new hay, that is low in sugar and starch, but that has enough protein, minerals and so on so that I don't have to feed her anything else.

I have also been told that I could give her Yea-Sacc.

Thank you for your answer.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

goneriding said:


> How many degrees did she rotate? The degree, how soon it was caught, her tolerance along with treatment has a lot to do with the outcome. What does your vet recommend?


I don't now the degrees, but it is really, really bad.

This horse is the type of horse that is "made of stone". Nothing bothers her really. According to the wets, she should not be able to walk around with this hoof. But she is actually standing on it and walks on it if she is allowed. 

They tell me that if we can keep her somewhat free from pain, and if the other hoof stays healthy, and if the rotation stops. She could pull through.

If she keeps going like she has right now, they will be putting on some special shoe and padding on both of her front hoofs next week. Right now she has a fluffy rubber thing under her foot. As long as that is on her feet, she's stands on her leg.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

First, she is absolutely beautiful but does need to lose some weight; however, I understand your dilemma with her having a foal by her side:-(

Don't give up hope on her. If you go to Pete Ramey's website, I am pretty sure he's got articles regarding coffin bones that rotated so bad, they sunk thru the sole and the horse recovered.

Pete Ramey makes healthy hooves on barefoot horses heals founder in horses

There's a lot of good and positive information on this site to give you hope

My horse with insulin resistance rotated 8 - 9 degrees on his LF and 5 degrees on his RF the second week of March. 8 - 9 degrees means his coffin bone was pointing pretty far south and it's a miracle he didn't sink thru the sole.

I tape partial pads to his hooves and he wears trail riding boots every day for turnout. Miraculously the sole on his RF (the 5 degree rotation) recently has developed a decent amount of concavity to it and the LF (8 - 9 degrees) looks like it's on the mend as well.

My horse is out every day but, comes in at night. It helps that we had just re-done his stall last year, with 12 inches of limestone crush and grid mats on top of that. I only put a about 3 inches of shavings down as I find too much depth makes him struggle too much to get up.

He doesn't wear anything on his hooves at night, so they have a chance to breath. The first week he foundered the vet did pack his hooves and I left that packing on for three days.

So again, don't give up - especially when the vet's are telling you they don't know how she's standing up and walking. With the great care she's receiving and good trims, she will be home and walking comfortably before you know it


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## OwnedByAlli (Nov 8, 2011)

You could also soak the hay if you cant find another batch of low sugar and starch hay. Hay loses a lot of its nutrience when it is dried, sugar unfortunatly isn't one of these nutrience :/ Soaking releases some of the sugar.

7% simple carbs (sugar and starch) is excelent though!

I'm sending you and your mare healing vibes! I hope she pulls through xx


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

walkinthewalk said:


> First, she is absolutely beautiful but does need to lose some weight; however, I understand your dilemma with her having a foal by her side:-(
> 
> Don't give up hope on her. If you go to Pete Ramey's website, I am pretty sure he's got articles regarding coffin bones that rotated so bad, they sunk thru the sole and the horse recovered.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your answer. As long as the veterinarians say she has a chance of pulling through and not suffer too much, we will not give up on her. 

I will look at the link! Thanks.

She will be put on a strict diet. 

I have ordered Dodson & Horrells foal creep pellets for the foal in case she wont have enough milk.

Interesting too read about your horse and how you are treating him! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for him.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

OwnedByAlli said:


> You could also soak the hay if you cant find another batch of low sugar and starch hay. Hay loses a lot of its nutrience when it is dried, sugar unfortunatly isn't one of these nutrience :/ Soaking releases some of the sugar.
> 
> 7% simple carbs (sugar and starch) is excelent though!
> 
> I'm sending you and your mare healing vibes! I hope she pulls through xx


Thanks for the answer!

I used to do that last summer, when we had a hay that was high in sugar. 

Unfortunatley. I live in Sweden. It is pretty cold here at winter, sometimes we have -30 degrees celcius is in the winter. So it's pretty impossible to soak hay wintertime. 

I don't think it will be very hard to find a good hay. I have a place that is pretty near that are know for their amazing hay and silage. I will give them a call when I now if I will be able to take my mare home again.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

But there is another thing that is worrying me.

It's the foal.

And if my mare makes it. She will be on box rest for a long, long time. 

What to do with the three months old foal? 

I was thinking about putting the foal out in a field day time with our miniature Shetland pony, and keep the foal with it's mother at night. And give 
her free choice of foal creep pellets, milk replacement and good quality hay during the day.

But - yes, there is a but. 

My mare goes crazy if the foal leaves her side and I'm guessing that won't be any good for her legs.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

Soaking her feet in ice will help reduce the swelling in her feet. NEVER EVER EVER HOT WATER. 

Soak her hay then drain it really well. Like others said it helps get the sugar out of it. 

Obviously reduce her mobility in a stall. To relieve some pain bed that stall down well! We try to get it up to their fetlocks.

That's our typical protocol for laminitis.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks for the reply! 

She is at a veterinarian clinic right now, they have her on box rest, deep bedding. 

Her hay is low in sugar.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Could you make a "creep" wall out of a side of a box stall? I don't know if that makes sense, but basically so the foal can get out and wander around the paddock (possibly with another mare/foal/babysitter horse in the greater paddock)? Not sure if that's feasible or not, but it's the best I could come up with. 

I hope Stella recovers, she's a beautiful girl!


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

We call it creep (feeding) in Sweden too. We like to borrow words from english. ;-)

I think that could be possible, but I'm afraid my mare will try to crawl under if the foal gets too far away. But we could try it!

Thank you!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think your mare is Insulin Resistant and Waaaay to fat. Her cresty neck tells the story.

The 3 month foal is old enough to wean if it is eating good, but I would do it a different way.

I would put her in a stall with an attached pen. Put a barrier across the stall door so only the baby can go out and run and play. Put a feeder outside so the baby can eat (like a creep feeder in reverse). Make sure the mare cannot break out or duck under the barrier because a meal of foal feed would not be good.

Feed the mare very little. She will lose weight pretty fast with the foal still nursing -- much faster than if the foal is weaned.

I may be old fashioned, but I would put a 'heart bar shoe' or a shoe put on backwards to keep all weight off of the wall of her toe until the coffin bone is stabilized and the hoof starts to grow out. We have saved so many founders that the Vets wanted to put down, that I am a believer in doing it that way very early until the hoof is stabilized. Husband has nailed on reverse shoes on horses that were down and would not even get up. [Not easy to shoe a horse laying down.] Some of those horses returned later to light riding and no lameness.

She is a beautiful pony by the way.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks for the reply!

She always have that neck. Even if she's very thin. Right now you can feel her ribs. She's also always been on a low sugar/starch diet because of the neck.

When the vet got his hands on her neck, he told me she got some fat on it, but not very much. 

But I agree, she is too fat. But she still needs a balanced diet and enough hay to keep her stomach OK. 

She will get a heart bar shoe or a shoe put on backwards according to the vet and the farrier at the clinic!

I don't think it's legal here in Sweden to wean the foal before 6 months.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I think that you are fine leaving the foal with her. Laminitis is an odd thing. Sometimes it just happens. She may be a bit too fat, but you didn't have her on a heavy grain diet. It is not something that you did to her. It is more likely related to her injury or to a metabolic disorder. You are doing all you can. She is a beautiful animal. I hope she gets better.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Thank you for your kind reply. 

She don't get any grain! Not ever. 

I'm just feeling so sorry for both my mare and her foal.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Im so sorry to see this. :-( shes such a fantastic mare and has battled numerous different obstacles in her life. Its such a shame the bad luck is continueing for her. 

I am praying for the best for you and her. The filly is technically old enough to be weaned, thatd be the worst circumstance of course, but if it really came down to it, Loopy would be okay by herself. 

Is there anyway a small pen could be added to Stellas stall to where baby could get out and stretch herlegs, but Stella couldnt and would still be stalled. Then she could see baby, not freak out, but baby could get exercise.

Im keeping my fingers crossed for Stella Girl. She is afterall, my favorite mare on HF.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

She sure have had her share of bad luck... Poor thing, I really don't know why. If there is something she could hurt herself on - she will. 

Hopefully she will get well enough for me to take home. 

Thank you for your kind words.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*laminitis*

If the suspensory injury had been on the opposite leg I would have wondered if it was all the extra strain on the other leg that might have triggered the laminitis.
You vet will have already done tests I'm sure to confirm insulin resistance, being overweight doesn't neccesarily mean insulin resistant laminitis will occur as its down to what they eat as well as how much - namely high sugar
Rises in blood pressure can cause laminitis as can anything that causes high inflammation levels in the hoof - so something like an abcess could trigger it off
There are amazing advances now in repairing the damage so I wouldn't give up hope. 
Try to keep the foal with her as much as possible as producing milk will help reduce her weight and she needs as little stress as possible to keep BP levels normal
You could also check out the Laminitis Trust website (UK) There is lots of good advice and info on there, they will answer any questions you have and as they are constantly researching they are on the cutting edge of anything new.
Laminitis Clinic advice for horse owners


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

jaydee said:


> If the suspensory injury had been on the opposite leg I would have wondered if it was all the extra strain on the other leg that might have triggered the laminitis.
> You vet will have already done tests I'm sure to confirm insulin resistance, being overweight doesn't neccesarily mean insulin resistant laminitis will occur as its down to what they eat as well as how much - namely high sugar
> Rises in blood pressure can cause laminitis as can anything that causes high inflammation levels in the hoof - so something like an abcess could trigger it off
> There are amazing advances now in repairing the damage so I wouldn't give up hope.
> ...


Thank you for the link. I will take a look at it right away.

As long as my veterinarian says that there is hope, and that she won't suffer too much. I will not give up on her. This horse is my everything and I love her very much.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Of course perhaps the pic is misleading, but she looks a lot more than 'a bit fat' to me & you should be able to feel the ribs *easily*, see them slightly through a summer coat & also go off the whole horse, not just ribs when assessing weight. She's cresty & looks like she has fat deposits which are indicative of long term overweight/IR problems, which are a common cause of laminitis. It's best not to allow horses to be overweight for too long - regular 'bad seasons' to use up the fat stores is important - and especially for broodmares, who due to horemones are more at risk of laminitis anyway and there is some evidence that overweight mothers(people studies) boost the likelihood of their offspring having metabolic probs.



StellaIW said:


> At this point we don't know if she will be able to make it. ... She has not shown any symptoms the past few weeks.
> .... But a few days ago she was standing on three legs. So we took her to a clinic.
> And the X-rays showed that the coffin bone had rotated. On one foot.


Excellent that she hasn't shown symptoms in last weeks... or has she?? What you've said seems contradictory. What makes you think she won't make it, when/if she's not even lame? What sort of degree is the rotation? Is there any bone loss? 

Can you post hoof pics(see link below) & pref the xrays? More info on her management?



> The other hoofs where just fine.


Is the left front more upright(clubby) by any chance?

For more info, some good online resources are; ecirhorse.com safergrass.org & hoofrehab.com


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Want to comment on some other's comments...

But first, I will emphasis that while I am an experienced hoof care practitioner, with lots of successful experience rehabbing founder & other issues, I know there are a variety of different opinions on all this, even among professionals. There has also been lots of recent research & advances made which mean new approaches that may not be understood or therefore considered by some & I would advise you don't just take anyone's word for it blindly(not even a vet), but do as much research as you can, to make the most informed decisions you can.

 


> We analyzed the hay she gets and it is about 7 % sugar/starch. ...
> She has never been fat before, I always kept her on a low sugar diet, lots of training.




That's pretty good, 7% hay! But you said previously that all your broodmares are all kept a bit too heavy. The look of her indicates it's likely been a long term problem too, so I would consider your idea(& your vet's) of 'overweight' might be a little out.




> and she will get therapeutic shoeing + trimming.




I appreciate I'm going against conventional advice here, but I would strongly consider you do lots of research before considering allowing shoes on her. I would personally advise they're kept well away, at least until her feet have recovered. While shoes can have a great palliative effect - allow the horse to be more comfortable - which can be very important, I believe especially in cases where the laminae have already been compromised/separated, that the walls need to be *relieved* of pressure, not put under a lot more, by being forced to bear the whole horse with peripheral loading. Instead I would pad the base of her feet, &/or use hoof boots to protect and support them and trim little & often to gradually get the foot in better shape & prevent overgrowth from exacerbating the situation.





> I will order home new hay, that is low in sugar and starch, but that has enough protein, minerals and so on so that I don't have to feed her anything else.




Good luck. If you can find such a thing, that would be amazing IMO. Generally speaking, feed including fresh grass will be imbalanced/deficient in a range of nutrients. Grass also loses nutrients when cut & dried. Therefore a good nutritional supplement(*that balances whatever diet) is almost invariably necessary if you want to ensure she's getting well balanced nutrition. feedxl.com is a great resource.... although I don't know that it's available in Sweden - worth finding out tho.



 




> My mare goes crazy if the foal leaves her side and I'm guessing that won't be any good for her legs.




Yeah, unfortunately something she's probably just got to deal with, though if you can avoid more stress by not weaning her now, probably good. Cherie's idea if it would work is probably what I'd do (tho my horse would do the limbo under a rail to get out...:-|) If the foal were in an area where the mare could always see him that shouldn't stress her too much.

But more to the point, if she's not currently suffering laminitis(the initial inflammation that allows mechanical changes) she *shouldn't* have to be kept boxed & best if not, if she can be made comfortable enough. Exercise is a good thing *so long as the horse is comfortable & not doing further damage*. If the 'fluffy stuff' under her foot keeps her comfortable that's a great sign. If you have a paddock with soft footing, she may not even need further protection in the paddock, but there are 'therapy boots' & some that are suitable for a horse to wear in the paddock if need be & other options such as Vettec & casting. She can get around fine with this protection until she's comfortable enough without.
 


> Laminitis is an odd thing. Sometimes it just happens. She may be a bit too fat, but you didn't have her on a heavy grain diet. It is not something that you did to her. It is more likely related to her injury or to a metabolic disorder.


and  



> being overweight doesn't neccesarily mean insulin resistant laminitis will occur as its down to what they eat as well as how much - namely high sugar


 
Disagree with most of the above sorry. I don't believe it ever 'just happens', although until recently it was such a mystery that there seemed little rhyme or reason. There are also a variety of causes, such as mechanical stress('road founder', imbalanced trimming, peripheral loading...), mental/body stress, as well as the common diet & metabolic causes. 

High grain/starch diets &/or large &/or infrequent feeding can cause laminitis by damaging the gut(hind gut acidosis, ulcers, etc) which can allow toxins out of the gut into the blood. 

Being overweight doesn't necessarily mean IR & laminitis, but just like type 2 diabetes in people, it is long term overweight(not nec. obese) without respite to use up fat stores that is the biggest risk. While high sugar diets tend to give a more acute 'spike' which makes an 'attack' more likely, it is not the 'namely high sugar' or what is eaten that makes a horse 'prone' but the overall amount. Eg. alfalfa is low sugar/carbs but high in energy with the rich protein, so an 'easy keeper' could easily become IR/lami by being fed too much of this.

So.... hope that's provided some more food for thought.... & not just a headache for you OP!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hey umm.. why not turn the baby out near an outdoor pen and have Stella in there (small enough so she can't run around crazy, but so she can still see her little sunshine)

Would that work?


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

She has not showed any symptoms of laminitis or founder up until last week. But she should have shown signs of it since it has been going on for some time.

Now she is very lame, but she has been normal all summer. 

I have no new pictures of her feet, or x-rays. She is at a clinic and is being taken care of by experts!


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

If you are ready to pay good (a lot of) money, getting such a hay is no problem in Sweden.  

She will be on box rest for quite some time according to the veterinarian and will not be allowed to be outside in a paddock. 

Thanks for the answer!


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with everyone that she needs to loose weight.

But this is a pretty "stocky" horse. 

This is a bad picture, but here you could feel her ribs very, very easy. 









Here are two pictures of her when she was in training. She only got hay and straw to eat and a protein feed that was low in sugar and MJ. 
I think she looks good here, and so does my veterinarian.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Found a couple of links for you, well worth reading and studying. And they are Swedish sites
Home of Swedish Hoof School
Barfota fr sundhet
I suggest reading and contacting them.

I agree with loosie...a reknown vet clinic might not always be the best option, it always pays to look into alternative methods of handling laminitis. 
I've seen the barefoot trim work...and produce sound horses!
Found out with my own horse that conventional shoeing for laminitis helped for the moment but didn't do anything long term. 
Me personally, I'd put the mare out on soft footing with baby...to reduce stress and keep her moving...after the right trim.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I would follow the advice of the veterinarian that is in charge of her case.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

In Sweden it is illegal to let any of the people, who are promoting/using the methods on the paged you linked, do any work on a sick/ill/injured horses feet.

If I where to contact them and let them work on my horse - and I never will - I would become guilty of animal abuse according to our laws.

Only a educated farrier with guidance of a veterinarian are allowed to treat a horse with a health problem.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Well, given my age and 45+ years with horses I learned, often the hard way, that it always pays to hear different opinions and be well informed on the subject.
Maybe you'll like this one better then
NANRIC - Your Source for Equine Podiatry Products & Knowledge
This gentleman is a vet and a farrier and is lecturing worldwide. I even found a vet in Italy who saw him and decided to go this way with laminitic horses.
In reading on his site you will find that his model of shoeing is coming from what? The barefoot wild horse....just saying....;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Those methods are still not legal to preform onto horses with laminitis or founder in Sweden, only farriers educated by a certain school are allowed to 
work on a horse like mine. And I would be charged guilty of animal abuse according to our laws if I let any one who is not educated touch my sick horses feet.

As we speak, the horse is getting therapeutic shoes. Since both my veterinarian and educated farrier tell me that it's the best for the horse at this moment. 

But thanks for the links and the reply!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Wow, and I thought Germany was bad......
But ill tell you what I did with my mare. I researched well, found Richard Redden's info, presented it to my vet, he knew it, and we found a farrier together and shod her this way together, with instant results I might add. 
My vet was also a professor of orthopedics at the university. 
So, I wouldn't say "no" right away, I'd present and discuss it. 
But that's just me....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*treating laminitis*

I think your vet has this pretty much under control and sounds as if he is working with a good farrier that he probably has an existing relationship with
I imagine that Sweden has similar laws on farriers as the UK - there is a long training period and apprenticeship system. Without this you can't legally shoe a horse. There is a lot of concern amongst the farriers that a lot of Podiatrists & barefoot trimmers are setting themselves up and their training is no where near as intense - and since all farriers are willing and able to 'barefoot trim' your horse its not surprising that qualified farriers are wondering why the need for yet another name and qualification for a long established profession.
If this young lady is using an insurance company to cover costs they may well refuse to pay up if she doesn't follow the right route as laid out by her vet. There are now some UK insurance companies refusing to cover foot related claims if a non qualified farrier has been treating the horse
There was an interesting article in the Horse & Hound June 28 2012 written by Gemma Pearson MRCVS on her treatment of a horse with the worst case of laminitis related to Equine Metabloic Syndrome imaginable. At one stage his foot was literally hanging off yet with some really radical surgical treatment over an 18 month period he was declared paddock sound


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I think it's good that we have laws and rules about our horses hoof care. It really prevent a lot of horses from suffering too much.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes, I think it's quite the same. 

And I have my horses very high insured and it will probably cover all the costs for her treatment. But it would not cover anything if I let a so called "barefoot trimmer". 
(In Sweden they have a very, very bad nickname that I probably should not share here.)

I will try to find that article. Thanks!


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

My mare is getting a heart bar shoe or a shoe that is put on backwards, they will trim down her heals a little bit and she will get some sort of padding too. 

I will hear from them on Wednesday again, to see how she is responding to her new shoes.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I guess I have to clarify some things;-)
First of all, I am German and I grew up with the system, the European system. 3 years apprentice to become a journeyman then 5 years as journeyman to go to masters school. And I totally agree with it. 
What I am trying here is give the OP some info, making up her mind is entirely up to her. 
Not all barefoot people are bad, same as not all Farriers are good. But what these reputable barefoot websites do is give tons of info on the why laminitis happens and what happens in the foot. Info one not usually finds on farrier websites, IF they have any. 
That in turn leads to a more informed horseowner who is then better able to understand and if necessary, discuss the treatment with vet/farrier team.
The OP came here to ask, and folks here answered. 
Of course you ask 10 horsepeople about farriery and you'll get at least 12 different answers. 

I found in all these years that one can never learn enough, and I also found out that I usually do best with a logical approach and listening to my to my gutt feeling. 

AND....depending on what breed the OP's horse is, I wouldn't call her fat. 

Now, that is stated how the mare will be shod, I can see that this is not so far from what most of the websites I posted say....and if the OP really gets into reading there she'll most likely agree
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I will look at your links! I never turn away information. I love to read and learn new things. Even if I or other people might not agree with them.

My mare is probably a Welsh Cob/Welsh cob cross.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

That's what I thought. So the neck and round hindquarters are normal for her. It's the way she's built
Read what you can and watch the videos on the nanric site. He improved the traditional heartbar shoe a lot, but the principle behind it is the same. 
GoodLuck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I am really glad to see that you are working with a veterinarian and taking their advice. I often don't even read these health threads because so many of them are people that want to get free advice because they don't want to go to the expense and trouble of getting professional help. You are a great "horse parent".


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Celeste said:


> I am really glad to see that you are working with a veterinarian and taking their advice. I often don't even read these health threads because so many of them are people that want to get free advice because they don't want to go to the expense and trouble of getting professional help. You are a great "horse parent".


Thank you.

My horse was already at my veterinarian getting treatment when I started the thread. 

I started the thread in hope of some good information, links, tips and things like that. And I got a lot of interesting links! Keeps me busy while my babies are gone. 

I have my horses insured so I can afford the healthcare they need. My foal was born premature and had foal sepsis. Her vet bill was up in 6050 before she was good to go home from the veterinarian. But since she has an awesome insurance, I only had to pay 20% of it. Thank heavens. (And no, I'm not having a good horse year this year. )


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

deserthorsewoman said:


> First of all, I am German


Well put! ...But where are the deserts in Germany??:lol:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Well, that's actually deserthorse-woman........I got an Ay-rab 
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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I got a call from my veterinarian. She is able to walk better with her new shoes and is looking OK right now.

Tomorrow they will take some more X-rays of her feet.

If the X-rays don't look worse and she keeps getting better she will be coming home on Friday.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Great news! 
Post pics of her now shod feet if you can,please
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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I will try to take some pictures of her feet when I get her home!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Okay
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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I have spent hours and hours!!! on finding a hay that will be good for mare.

I finally, hopefully (they where going to double check so that they still got enough left for me.) found a great choice for my mare!

Crude Protein 80 g
Digestible protein 56 g
Energy 7.2 g
Calcium 2.2 g
Phosphor 1.4 g
Magnesium 0.8 g

Sugar/starch 6.4%


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*hay*

Soaking & draining it it will reduce sugar content even more
Have you had the results of her glucose & insulin levels yet?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Sounds like a good choice for her. I'd ask at the clinic, if she is IR, what you can do to help her out but still have her foal get proper nutrition.
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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

We won't take those test until she gets better, because I've been told that if you take such test when the horse is currently having an "attack of laminitis" the test results could be wrong. 

Still, we will treat her as a horse wit IR. 

And I can't soak my hay - It gets really really cold her during winter, everything freezes to ice.
And I really don't have anywhere warm where I could store it during the time the hay is soaked.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I was wondering....actually, most of the sugars will get washed out with one hour soaking in cold water, and only half an hour with warm water. I used to put the portion in a wheelbarrow and soaked with warm water, dump the water and feed it. I had several horses to feed, so I watered the hay first, gave the other horses theirs and when I was done, fed the soaked hay to my mare
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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

StellaIW said:


> We won't take those test until she gets better, because I've been told that if you take such test when the horse is currently having an "attack of laminitis" the test results could be wrong.
> 
> Still, we will treat her as a horse wit IR.
> 
> ...


 I dont know about test results during an attack being wrong so you have to rely on your vets advice for that - at least you are taking the right precautions
I have the same problem soaking hay in the winter here - just can't be done unless I keep it in the basement mechanicals area and they eat it before it goes solid.
You could soak it for the short term though


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I could soak it for now, but I really don't think I need to. The hay is fine the way it is. (I called an expert to check.)


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

You're lucky then. I never looked forward to it;-)
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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> We won't take those test until she gets better, because I've been told that if you take such test when the horse is currently having an "attack of laminitis" the test results could be wrong.


yep, pain/stress/cortisol can effect insulin/glucose levels.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

My babies are home again!



















I will try to take some pictures of her feet later today.

She's walking quite nice and is almost not lame at all.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You must be so happy
She really doesn't look overweight for her breed and doesn't have any of the abnormal fat deposits typical of IRS that I can see. I wonder if something else went on in that hoof to cause the inflammation
Hope it all goes well


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Same here! The only one foot kinda takes me off the IR idea......
Nice babies you have
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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*stress & laminitis*



loosie said:


> yep, pain/stress/cortisol can effect insulin/glucose levels.


 Interesting fact loosie - I looked up some facts on stress and insulin levels - all part of the fear/flight reaction and horses are going to be far more sensitive to that than humans
I wonder if it was the stress that the mare went through when her foal was born with complications and they were separated etc that actually triggered the attack - not diet related at all
What do you others think?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Very well possible. This is exactly why I'm very careful about all that "too fat...cresty neck, is IR" and so on...and pumping them full of chemicals just to throw off their balance even more. 
I've seen plenty acutely laminitic horses who were left outside with the herd, had a proper trim and were feed as natural as possible and recovered 100%. It takes some gutts as the owner to watch the horse down more than up on it's feet, tho, but I'm all for it if the end result is health.
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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

They where never separated, but it was very stressful for my mare. Interesting. I will try to find some more information on that.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Irs*



StellaIW said:


> They where never separated, but it was very stressful for my mare. Interesting. I will try to find some more information on that.


 It made me think as one of my mares that I have had since she was 3 and who gets very over excited about going to shows etc - gets excited about breathing!!! - had a sudden 'out of the blue' attack of laminitis one winter 7 years ago when I decided to put her on a boarding yard so I could use the indoor facilities in the evening to fit in with my job. She was fit, not overweight and in regular work, stabled at night and on a small turnout paddock with little grass. She hated it there and fretted so much I brought her home and she seemed 'pottery' on her feet - then a full blown laminitis attack, pedal bones rotated etc. We could only put it down to a change in feed but it wasn't that big a change. She made a full recovery & I'm still careful with her though she goes out daily on a normal field
I now wonder if it was the stress that induced it and not feed related at all


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Her new shoe on her left front. I where not able to get good pictures of her feet, bad light. The pictures on her right front shoe where bad too.




























My mares foal enjoyed being home!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Not much to see, only thing I would "do" different is I wouldn't nail forward of the point of the frog. Side views on level ground would be nice if the little booger allows. Set the camera on the floor for that.
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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

So glad she's home Stella!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> She really doesn't look overweight for her breed and doesn't have any of the abnormal fat deposits typical of IRS that I can see.


Disagree she's not overweight, but yes, she hasn't got obvious, chronic fat deposits, but that doesn't mean that it should be ruled out at all.



> The only one foot kinda takes me off the IR idea...


Yeah there are other reasons besides IR why a horse may founder, and many people only class it as such when there are serious mechanical changes, so just because it might be only classed as 'founder' in that foot doesn't mean she didn't have laminitis in all four - perhaps that foot was trimmed differently, a bit clubby, she paws, she weights it more.... many reasons why one foot is worse but not a reason to rule out IR. Also it looks like they shod both fronts like this(?), which I presume means they must think the other is at risk too.



> I wonder if it was the stress that the mare went through when her foal was born with complications and they were separated etc that actually triggered the attack - not diet related at all


Yep, could well be. There are a number of reasons that horses suffer laminitis, including it seems mental stress(mental/emotional stress upsets our gut, so I presume it's the same for a horse, only theirs is more delicate, so...). Just that when considering a fat pony that's been like that long term(OP said she likes the broodies overweight), IR is the commonest reason.



> This is exactly why I'm very careful about all that "too fat...cresty neck, is IR" and so on...and pumping them full of chemicals just to throw off their balance even more.


Yes, I don't believe it's reasonable to assume it's definitely IR/weight related, if that's what you're meaning, but just that it is likely & should be taken very seriously - if it's not the cause, it still could be down the track, if people aren't proactive about keeping/feeding horses for a healthy weight.

I don't understand your 'full of chemicals' comment?



> We could only put it down to a change in feed but it wasn't that big a change.


Perhaps it was a combination.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Loosie. I was referring to the usual route vets go with an acute laminitis case. Painkiller, Anti inflammatory, blood thinner and what not. Its a chemical bomb in all senses. IMO bombarding a so delicate "system" with all that when it's already off is not the right way to go. But, im not a vet.....don't know if you ever heard about it, many many years ago they would what was called ( literal translation here) let them bleed. They would basically poke a hole in the jugular vein and let a good amount of blood out. The blood was usually really thick and dark. I've never seen it but was told it helped. Barbaric? Probably.......
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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

The "chemical bomb" has saved many horses lives. If you do nothing, they will suffer. They will rotate their coffin bones out the bottom of their hooves. They will die. If I get sick, please give me pain medications and drugs to save my life. Either that or just shoot me. But do something.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

To the best of my knowledge, the only things who stop a rotating coffin bone is proper hoof care and a drastic change of diet if the laminitis is caused by IR. Painkillers help with the pain, yes, no doubt. But pain has a function. To stop from moving the affected bodypart and herewith not aggravate the problem. 
The sense of giving bute or other NSAID's is questionable and not proven either. It makes the owner feel better, that's for sure. 
Putting the horse in a stall bedded deep with sand gives instant relief, that is proven and often a first aid measure until he farrier can get there. 
As I stated above I've seen horses completely cured even with rotated coffin bone just with the proper trim, radical change of diet, little stress as possible and a really thick- skinned owner. Thick skinned in sense of being able to see a horse more down than up on its feet for a good while. 
I have to say tho, the first case like this I saw made me hurt probably more than the horse and I was really mad. But it sure was nice to see that horse cantering completely painfree afterwards.
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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

loosie said:


> Yeah there are other reasons besides IR why a horse may founder, and many people only class it as such when there are serious mechanical changes, so just because it might be only classed as 'founder' in that foot doesn't mean she didn't have laminitis in all four - perhaps that foot was trimmed differently, a bit clubby, she paws, she weights it more.... many reasons why one foot is worse but not a reason to rule out IR. Also it looks like they shod both fronts like this(?), which I presume means they must think the other is at risk too.



The foot was not trimmed differently, the leg that she got laminitis on is also the leg that she has an injury on - so she should not put more weight on that leg.

They shod the other leg with the same shoe, because they are afraid that she will develop laminitis on that leg too if she puts too much weight on it to rest the hoof with laminitis.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Loosie. I was referring to the usual route vets go with an acute laminitis case. Painkiller, Anti inflammatory, ....They would basically poke a hole in the jugular vein and let a good amount of blood out. The blood was usually really thick and dark. I've never seen it but was told it helped. Barbaric? Probably.......


Yes, unfortunately NSAIDS can actually bring on or exacerbate laminitic attacks, due to damage to the gut:-( so I do agree these sort of things should be avoided where not deemed absolutely necessary, used VERY cautiously and alternatives such as 'gut friendly' herbal pain relief used instead where possible. *Generally speaking*, laminitis attacks & the acute pain many horses suffer from them are quite short lived if the cause can be addressed.

Yes, they used to use 'bleeding' for a lot of ailments, on people as well as animals.... & I think there's probably a very good reason it's antiquated & out of fashion!:lol:


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

NSAIDS are used to combat the short term inflammatory reaction that causes the laminitis. Inflammation causes the rotation. 

*Stella, you did great. If all horse owners were like you, all the horses would be so much better off. *


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I think that if people want to argue laminitis treatment, they should start a new thread rather than hijack Stella's thread. She did a phenomenal job of taking care of her horse and would probably not rather have people criticizing what she did. Results are what counts, and her horse is home and walking.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Celeste said:


> I think that if people want to argue laminitis treatment, they should start a new thread rather than hijack Stella's thread. She did a phenomenal job of taking care of her horse and would probably not rather have people criticizing what she did. Results are what counts, and her horse is home and walking.


 Amen Celeste
Stella asked for thoughts, ideas and links to any related sites. When you are faced with a situation like this all information, options and experiences are valued.
She did not ask for arguments about those thoughts & neither did the people who offered them and she did not ask for critiscm of her vet & farriers methods as they seemed to be doing a very good job & she had confidence in them.
She seems quite capable of sifting through these things herself and discussing with her professionals.
Stellla - I hope your beautiful mare makes a full recovery and that you will report back regularly on her progress
My own mare was treated in much the same way as yours and her rotation was every bit as bad. Her recovery was amazing and her feet good enough for her to be ridden barefoot on any surface.


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## eclipseranch (May 31, 2012)

Stella, just saw this thread, I am so happy for you that mom & baby are home & doing well. I know you must have been worried out of your mind..thinking what could I or should I have done differently..so normal in a medical emergency/crisis. Sounds to me like you did everything just fine!! The foal appears to have quite a spit fire personality..no wonder mom goes crazy when they are separated...discipline!! lol


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Celeste said:


> NSAIDS are used to combat the short term inflammatory reaction that causes the laminitis. Inflammation causes the rotation.


Yes, they are used to combat the inflammation, but they can also do further damage, so it can be a balancing act. The inflammation causes weakening or breakdown of lamellar connection, but it is basically the mechanics that cause the compromised hoof to 'rotate' &/or 'sink'.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Celeste said:


> I think that if people want to argue laminitis treatment, they should start a new thread rather than hijack Stella's thread.


Beg your pardon but who's arguing??? She started this thread for more info & that's what's been provided. Unless I missed something, no one has been getting stuck into her for her decisions. We all make the best decisions with the knowledge we have at the time.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

You can discuss NSAIDS as much as you want.

I am still going to give my horse pain medication, It would be animal cruelty to not give her something that reduces her pain. 
Up until now she has gotten her painkillers directly in her blood, we started her on NSAIDS yesterday as well as two supplements for her gut. 
If my veterinarian is telling me that she needs it - she is going to get it. 

I have decided to not post any pictures of the feet. I trust the people that are taking care of my horse. And I really don't think that posting 
pictures of her feet on the internet will help us much, horse people tend to all have different opinions on everything. 

Celeste, Thank you!

Eclipseranch, Thank you. I am happy to have them home, but my veterinarian still can't tell us if she will recover or not, time will tell. We are keeping our fingers crossed! 

The foal is crazy.  But I have been putting the foal in one stall and my mare in an other for about 40 minutes two times a day to get them used to be separated and it's going just fine, they are actually really calm about it. Hopefully, If this works, I will be able to have the foal turned out for a couple of hours a day with the barns miniature Shetland pony. 

Jaydee, Thanks, That is so nice to hear about your horse, gives me a little bit more hope!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> on the internet will help us much, horse people tend to all have different opinions on everything.


Don't we just!?? It isn't just the internet though & not confined to non-professionals either. You'll find if you look into it, different vets & such have different opinions too. Can get pretty confusing sometimes.:? 

I personally like to hear all the opinions, pros & cons of different stuff(which is why I presume you & others post these type threads too). I just don't take much at all on blind faith, from 'experts' or otherwise, but take everything with a big chunk of salt, consider it, research it if it's important & then do whatever I think is best... which is of course going to go against at least half the opinions usually!:lol: The best any of us can do IMO is to learn all we can, be open minded & make the best decisions we can with the knowledge we have.

Best wishes for your horse & the opinions you've chosen to follow this time!:wink::wave:


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

The three largest animal clinics in Sweden have the same opinion on how to treat laminitis, I will trust them.

But I am open for information. 

But I have read about NSAIDS, pros/cons etc. I will give my horse pain medication.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Stella, you have asked about info and opinions, and you got them, most likely more than enough. Everyone here most likely has experience and has told about it. 
Of course it differs, just as vets and Farriers differ. 
You chose this way, because this is what you think is best. And what is available. 
It's your horse, so it's your choice.
I wish the three of you the very best outcome possible, keep us updated
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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

We have certain rules and laws we must follow. I cannot refuse to give a horse in pain pain medication/use "farriers" that are not schooled and educated at a certain "school" and so on. 

I don't want to be rude or anything, I am thankful and greatful for all the input there is. But you must now, some things I can't even take under consideration, because it is against the law. 


Here are some new pictures of my mare. I don't think she is doing much better, she stands on all four legs without problem and moves good in the stall, but if I take her out she is a bit stiff, like she was when we got her home. But I guess since the rotation is so severe, it will take more time to see improvement. 

I am keeping a close eye on her. 

On September 24th my own veterinarian will be out to take new X-rays for the farrier, we will see how it looks then.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Stella, your mare looks great! Anyone that tells you not to give her pain medication doesn't know what they are talking about and doesn't have compassion for your horse and the way that she feels. You are doing a good job.


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## Saleenxx (Sep 22, 2009)

Im going through a tough time with my pony and laminitis now as well. He has been on pain medication now for sometime and I couldnt imagine how he would feel if he wasnt! He has had major rotation in his right front and slight sinkage. I know I wouldnt like that pain! Anyhoo, theres so many ups and downs when treating feet it can be discouraging but we love our horses so we do whatever it takes to keep them healthy and happy. 
But like you said Stella, if my vet says he needs hes getting it! If its going to make him comfortable then thats all I can ask for.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Your mare looks gorgeous, Stella. Now lets all hope the new x-rays show improvement 

And for those who think I am not compassionate and don't know what I'm talking about.....I had a chronically laminitic mare with 15 respectively 8 degrees of rotation . I read and studied all I could get a hold of and tried just about anything. Two ways I tried worked. A shoe and the barefoot approach in the end. So I guess I can safely say I know what I'm talking about. 
I was trying to give Stella all the info I collected over the years, own experience, latest research, trial and error.
She has to decide what's best for her horse and she did. 
I guess we all hope for the best outcome.
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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Celeste said:


> Stella, your mare looks great! Anyone that tells you not to give her pain medication doesn't know what they are talking about and doesn't have compassion for your horse and the way that she feels. You are doing a good job.


Celeste, no one's telling Stella to do anything, but speaking for myself, I'm not against pain meds as a rule, but do think it's important to understand and weigh up the *cons* as well as the pros of whatever treatment we give our horses. Anyone who tells you not to do that doesn't know what they're on about IMO:wink:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Stella your mare looks great and apart from her laminitis must be really healthy which will give her a better chance of recovery
Like your mare my one also had all the pain meds and blood pressure reducing meds she needed and I'm sure it was the right way to go with her as at the outset she refused to get up or eat she was in so much pain - the only comment I would make on the NSAID's is to be aware of the ulcer risks from them and maybe talk that through with your vet re. any meds that would help reduce the umpact on her stomach
I'm afraid this is one of those things where you just have to be patient, my mare went down with it in the December and it was April before we saw any significant improvement in her lameness issues though once that happened recovery seemed to accelerate really fast
Good luck with the progress
Keep us informed please.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks everyone. 

Saleenxx, I'm so sorry to hear that about your pony. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Jaydee, She is given two supplements for her stomach and free choice of hay to reduce the risk of ulcers. 


As for the tiny monster... She is quite happy. I am taking her on small walks and she finds it exiting. 

She is growing a lot though. I guess all of the energy she used to spend on running around like crazy, is now spent on growing. She will be 4 months next week.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Beautiful foal Stella
Your vets sound to be really good at covering all the risks - they deserve all the faith you have in them


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Gorgeous bubby too!


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## Jore (Dec 4, 2010)

Any updates on your mare? I've noticed that I haven't been seeing any posts, and I figured I'd ask. Hopefully there's been some improvement and her and her filly are doing great!


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

We have taken some new x-rays, not much improvement. But she was walking around perfect when we took her out from her stall. 

So we gradually took away the pain medication, but we keept her on box rest. After a week or so she got worse again, not much, but you can see that it's not good. 

She is on pain medication again and still on box rest. 

I don't really know if she will make it.

My vet has of course been out a few times to look at her and he will be out to see her again tomorrow.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sorry to hear that progress isn't going as well as You'd hoped
Has your vet ever considered calling The Laminitis Trust (UK) Dr Robert Eustace is very knowledgeable and always involved in new research. My vet and farrier worked very closely with him when my mare had her attack. Sometimes good to have another set of eyes and ears on the case.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I like the shoe your farrier put on her. Putting support under her frog and getting weight off of the wall at the toe are the most effective things you can do. This kind of shoe only helps if there is good contact under the frog, so they need to be reset every 3-4 week. 

I will offer something for you to think about on the use of pain medication. When we take away all pain with anti-inflammatories, we take away nature's way to stop the horse from putting too much weight on the injured foot. If we use pain meds which encourage a horse to put its full weight on a foundered foot, we actually cause more damage to the point that the coffin bone can come through the bottom of the sole while horse still thinks it is OK. to walk on it. In my experience, they just do not take care of the foot like they would if it hurt to put full weight on it.

Personally, I think 'light anti-inflammatory medication' helps with the inflammation and will help keep the opposite foot from taking too much pressure. I just always want to stop short of making a horse comfortable enough to over-use the bad foot.

Good luck with her. She is beautiful.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Cherie said:


> I like the shoe your farrier put on her. Putting support under her frog and getting weight off of the wall at the toe are the most effective things you can do. This kind of shoe only helps if there is good contact under the frog, so they need to be reset every 3-4 week.
> 
> I will offer something for you to think about on the use of pain medication. When we take away all pain with anti-inflammatories, we take away nature's way to stop the horse from putting too much weight on the injured foot. If we use pain meds which encourage a horse to put its full weight on a foundered foot, we actually cause more damage to the point that the coffin bone can come through the bottom of the sole while horse still thinks it is OK. to walk on it. In my experience, they just do not take care of the foot like they would if it hurt to put full weight on it.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. This is one of the most common mistakes people make when treating injuries that require pain meds. I have seen many leg sprains and strains made far worse by people totally blotting out the pain and turning the horse out at pasture when it proceeds to put even more pressure on the injured area because it doesn't know not too.
Different things will work for different horses. When my mare had reached this stage with little sign of improvement aftre much debate and discussion all round it was decided that we had little to lose and her shoes and supports were removed, she had just enough pain meds to keep her comfortable and was kept stabled on a rubber matting and a very deep bed of shavings
She is now laminitis free and sound barefoot. (I am not an anti - shoeing person it just works for her)


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Stella, im really sorry to hear that. Maybe, just maybe you should re-think the whole approach.
Jaydee is right. So is Cherie. 
You know, a lot of people here on the forum are NOT 15 anymore, but have had horses for 30, 40 and more years. With horseownership for this many years comes a certain experience. We all have seen a lot, have met a lot of vets and Farriers, have had our share of failures, but also successes. Some of these with rather unorthodox methods. I personally had vets give up on a horse or not willing to try different treatment, changed vet or even treated myself and pulled the horse through. 

I think you should re-read this whole thread again and maybe try to go a different path. Of course only if you intend to keep your mare alive. 
I don't see why the "Swedish Hoofschool" I recommended would be such a bad idea. They are being acknowledged worldwide. 
And sorry, I don't believe stating "the law" and keep doing what doesn't do nothing will help your horse. 

If I come across aggressive to you im terribly sorry. But you need to THINK now. For the sake of your horse.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm sorry that she is having a hard time. I hope she turns around.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Stella, im really sorry to hear that. Maybe, just maybe you should re-think the whole approach.
> Jaydee is right. So is Cherie.
> You know, a lot of people here on the forum are NOT 15 anymore, but have had horses for 30, 40 and more years. With horseownership for this many years comes a certain experience. We all have seen a lot, have met a lot of vets and Farriers, have had our share of failures, but also successes. Some of these with rather unorthodox methods. I personally had vets give up on a horse or not willing to try different treatment, changed vet or even treated myself and pulled the horse through.
> 
> ...



The Swedish Hoofschool are frowned upon for reasons. As I told everyone before, it is against the law to let anyone of those people touch a horse with laminitis.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Cherie said:


> I like the shoe your farrier put on her. Putting support under her frog and getting weight off of the wall at the toe are the most effective things you can do. This kind of shoe only helps if there is good contact under the frog, so they need to be reset every 3-4 week.
> 
> I will offer something for you to think about on the use of pain medication. When we take away all pain with anti-inflammatories, we take away nature's way to stop the horse from putting too much weight on the injured foot. If we use pain meds which encourage a horse to put its full weight on a foundered foot, we actually cause more damage to the point that the coffin bone can come through the bottom of the sole while horse still thinks it is OK. to walk on it. In my experience, they just do not take care of the foot like they would if it hurt to put full weight on it.
> 
> ...


Thank you,

She has gotten her shoes reset. 

She only given a small amount of anti-inflammatory medication, she is not on a big dose that will take away all of the pain. 

But she was good for a while without any pain medication, moving normally without medication. (She was still on box rest but when we took her out to check on her, she was perfect.) 

But then she got worse. And now she is on a small dose of medication again.


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## NikkasGurl (Apr 11, 2012)

My pony JUST got founder, and she is still recovering...i caught her right before it got bad. and thankfully i didn't have to call a vet. But these things take time. You need to keep her in place with no grass, and when she is able to walk, get her as much exercising without tiring her out to much. Also, the more she lays down the better, it gets the weight off it...helps alot.

Anyways that is what i did with my pony and she is almost fully recovered. Its been a few weeks now...Best of Luck!!!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

NikkasGurl said:


> My pony JUST got founder, and she is still recovering...i caught her right before it got bad. and thankfully i didn't have to call a vet. But these things take time. You need to keep her in place with no grass, and when she is able to walk, get her as much exercising without tiring her out to much. Also, the more she lays down the better, it gets the weight off it...helps alot.
> 
> Anyways that is what i did with my pony and she is almost fully recovered. Its been a few weeks now...Best of Luck!!!


Is your pony shod or barefoot?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

StellaIW said:


> The Swedish Hoofschool are frowned upon for reasons. As I told everyone before, it is against the law to let anyone of those people touch a horse with laminitis.


If conventional methods are failing, then I don't get what you've got to lose trying something else?? It's against the law to allow them to touch a horse, but it's not to fail with conventional methods & give up without even trying anything else?? Wierd, irrational sounding laws. Everyone is 'frowned on for reasons' by some, but that's no reason not to even consider them.(BTW know virtually nothing about that particular mob)


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Loosie, you be the judge
http://www.swedishhoofschool.com/Evidence/Albin.htm


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah, desert, all I've seen is their website, which IMO is not nearly enough for informed opinions, save to say they appear to be on the right track. ;-)


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

StellaIW said:


> The Swedish Hoofschool are frowned upon for reasons. As I told everyone before, it is against the law to let anyone of those people touch a horse with laminitis.


I have heard from other people on this site that the laws in Sweden for animal care are very strict. I tried to find the laws on the Internet, but couldn't find anything that states what specific treatments and animal care providers individual owners are mandated to use or not allowed to use. I couldn't find the actual Health Care Act of 2010 either though. The only very vague reference to a requirement is "veternarian or other health care professional." Is there a link to the Swedish legislation that states who you can or can't call to help care for your horse? 

Also, if it is illegal to have the Swedish Hoofschool come to look after your horse, how can they exist and even advertise on the internet? I am assuming that they are actually located in Sweden. If the Swedes can't use them, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be in a different country?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I guess that's another case where politicians and lawmakers are WAY behind development. 
I understand that if a horse is life insured the insurance company kinda dictates what they'll cover and what not. BUT....if I had to chose...I'd be pro horse. 

Looks like all we can do is give references to read, cases to study and help build an informed opinion. The reading has to be done by the OP.
I sure hope this horse gets a fair chance.........


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

loosie said:


> Yeah, desert, all I've seen is their website, which IMO is not nearly enough for informed opinions, save to say they appear to be on the right track. ;-)


That's what I'm gathering. They do have some interesting tests on youtube.....


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I am against the swedish hoofschool because I've seen what their followers have done to horses.

And it is not pretty.

I do not agree with what they are saying about horses and the methods that they choose.

You need to use farrier with a special education to treat a sick horse.

But as always. Some people don't care about such things.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

StellaIW said:


> I am against the swedish hoofschool because I've seen what their followers have done to horses.


What about themselves? Of course you can find bad examples from bad students in any walk of life(including conventional farriery & a good school doesn't guarrantee a good professional). That's not to say the underlying principles are at fault though.



> I do not agree with what they are saying about horses and the methods that they choose.


Curious to know what sayings & methods you disagree with? 



> You need to use farrier with a special education to treat a sick horse.
> But as always. Some people don't care about such things.


I just think many people put far too much blind faith in 'experts' & think far more about the 'special education' than they do about the results. So I guess you could say I'm one of those that 'doesn't care' about qualifications, without thought as to the validity of theories or effectiveness of treatment.(Not in the least meaning that of all conventional farriers, btw). Because my primary 'care' is for the horse.

As with anything, I think we can only make the best decisions based on the knowledge we have, so it pays to learn as much as possible and analyse the principles, pros & cons of each. We can't make objective decisions if we won't even look at half the info.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

That!^^^


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I will never put any trust these people.

In Sweden they are called "barfota talibaner" = "Barefoot-Taliban".

The students and barefoot trimmers of this "Swedish hoofschool" have almost no education compared to a farrier with a licence to treat sick horses. (Farriers are educated over several years.)

Ok. 

WHY should I trust someone that has almost NO education?
Why should I let someone that has a few weeks education even touch my sick horse?

To trim healthy horses, they only think that a small class over a few days are education enough. To me this is utterly frightening and completely insane. 

There is a reason to why the Svenska jordbruksverket had to - very very swift -create new laws against uneducated people trying to treat horses in ways that are unacceptable. (Unacceptable ways are ways that cause horses pain.)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Though I dont agree with giving up on a horse I do know that there are a lot of 'quacks' out there hiding behind what appear to be very impressive looking credentials and training certificates
There are good and bad in all of these things - there are some very good barefoot trimmers and there are some really bad ones. I do one that the law in the UK working with insurance companies are tightening up in a similar way to protect owners from being exploited.
As far as my horse went we felt that we had reached the end of the line with her - the difference was I stayed with my (qualified) farrier and vet and we sat down together and discussed alternatives and it was my farrier who had worked extensively with laminitic cases that suggested we just take everything off her and see what the foot could do without intervention - shoes/support bads as he'd seen success with it before. As it was done under the supervision and advice of them both the insurance company were willing to accept the trial.
I dont think I would feel inclined to suggest something like we did unless the horse was at the point of being euthanised and I see no reason why the OP's vet and farrier couldnt do the same as was done with me.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Since the OP is European, lets talk about European farrier education. First, I have to say, in my "life" wig horses for 45 years, I obviously dealt with many Farriers. I met TWO who were outstanding in their work. The first one I had for over 20 years. That was way before the barefoot movement, way before Jaime Jackson ever thought about studying wild horse hooves. 
This man did somewhat of a mustang roll when he trimmed, not for shoeing, of course, but as so called pasture trim. He did miracles with shoes. He learned the trade from his father who had learned the trade from his father. The second one was more recently. Younger, but very interested in anything he hadn't seen, done or learned. 
ALL the other ones in between......let's not go into detail...too sad. 
Many get into farriery because there is money to make. You won't believe how many apprenticees I met with my first farrier who dropped out because they realized its not as easy as it sounds. 
I was also there when the barefoot movement started....first in Germany with Dr. Strasser. Same problems as Stella is talking about. I wouldn't let any Strasser trained person touch my horses, period. Why? Because i did my homework. Because I learned everything I could about hoof mechanism, healthy, natural way of living, pathologies to be able to see if something was right or wrong. 
This is why I gave you several links earlier on in this thread. Stuff to look at, study. So you get more informed. 
I've seen many barefoot "trimmers" who did very badly, but also quite a few who understood very well, were more informed than many a vet, and also did miracles. Because they had a true interest and were open-minded.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I guess what im trying to say here is, open your mind....for the sake of your horse. I didn't insist on barefoot....although I am convinced it's the right way for treating laminitis.
I gave you the link to Dr. Ric Redden. He has enough educational videos and articles on his website, has saved many many laminitic horses all over the world, famous and very expensive horses. He is holding clinics for vets and Farriers worldwide. 
Another one, in Europe, is Dr. Hans Casteljins. Maybe you could contact these master Farriers, Redden also being a vet, and ask for somebody in Sweden who worked with either one of them.

Remember, I asked for pics of the shoes your horse got. From bottom and side? You wouldn't post side pics...why? From good pics people with a trained eye can tell pretty much if the angle is right. The nicest heartbar shoe doesn't do anything if the heel is not lowered to get the P3 in the right position. The nicest open toed shoe doesn't do anything if the breakover isn't where it is supposed to be. Did you know that? 

So you can see that we're not the "this is the only way" people. Most of us did all the reading and studying to understand. And we all hate to see giving up on a horse due to lack of information. 
This is why we're still here asking about your horse. 

Open your mind, read, study and then talk to your vet and farrier about it. Most vets and Farriers appreciate a well informed client.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I still can't believe that you think I should have taken my horse to these kind of people?

Just no. I will not do that to my horse. 

It's not an option. 

My horses sole is almost getting punctured by the coffin bone.

These people don't think that the horse should have box rest, they think she should move around, they don't think she needs to get pressure/weight of the toe... and so on. 



Of course her heels have been lowered. My farrier and vet are good at what they do, I have chosen them for a reason. They are well informed and educated in the matter.


How could you tell if the angle is right only by looking at pictures of her feet, I thought X-rays where taken for a reason?





And of course I want my horse to live. 

I will do anything in my power to get her well. I just bought a special hay just for her with low sugar/starch and it did cost me $3800. I paid over $3000 in veterinarian costs.

If I didn't want her to live, I would have put her down long ago. So never, ever tell me that I do not want whats best for my horse.

But I will not put her through torture for it. 

It is my responsibility to say stop when it's time for it. For my horse sake.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Well......I give up..........it's like talking to a brick wall. 

If you're not even willing to learn all you can. Magic word here...Open Mind"......so sad.

Now im wondering how much longer we have to wait for the " we had to put her out of her misery" post.


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## Cottonwood Stables (Oct 5, 2012)

It sound like she has mechanical rotation (this means that the horse has never suffered from internal founder but just poor hoof function and balance) I have had horses like that and all you need is a farrier that understand mechanical founder and how to fix it. 

As and example I acquired a OTTB gelding that was trained with poor hoof care meaning that they never did him on time to there was a lot of excess pressure on the hoof wall there from every step made the rotation worse and worse and worse until the feet are now very different in shape. My farrier works on him every week to correct it and he went form being a lawn ornament to galloping on trail ride again. They feet are almost the same now and it is fix. Easier to fix when the horse is not sensitive to sugars.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Cottonwood Stables said:


> It sound like she has mechanical rotation (this means that the horse has never suffered from internal founder but just poor hoof function and balance) I have had horses like that and all you need is a farrier that understand mechanical founder and how to fix it.


What? This is just not correct. This horse clearly had acute laminitis. Coffin bone rotation is a common thing that follows acute laminitis. The purpose of aggressive treatment is to prevent this. If it happens, it happens. The rotation is a direct result of the inflammation and swelling. The swelling has nowhere to go. It is much like what happens to your fingernail if you hit it with a hammer. The swelling within the confines of the hard hoof pushes the coffin bone down. I am afraid that having a farrier that understands mechanical founder is not going to help this horse. 

Stella, you do what you need to do. Work with your veterinarians. Let them help you make decisions based on sound medical evidence.

I wonder how many of the people that are criticizing you would spend what you have spent on their horses.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I beg your pardon??????
Money equals love and knowledge????????
Wow.....


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## Cottonwood Stables (Oct 5, 2012)

Celeste said:


> What? This is just not correct. This horse clearly had acute laminitis. Coffin bone rotation is a common thing that follows acute laminitis. The purpose of aggressive treatment is to prevent this. If it happens, it happens. The rotation is a direct result of the inflammation and swelling. The swelling has nowhere to go. It is much like what happens to your fingernail if you hit it with a hammer. The swelling within the confines of the hard hoof pushes the coffin bone down. I am afraid that having a farrier that understands mechanical founder is not going to help this horse.
> 
> Stella, you do what you need to do. Work with your veterinarians. Let them help you make decisions based on sound medical evidence.
> 
> I wonder how many of the people that are criticizing you would spend what you have spent on their horses.



I am just saying what I did with my horse and the outcome not pressuring or BULLYING others. My horse is very happy and healthy and has improved drastically from when I first got him so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that what I did for my horse worked for him. There are different ways to get rotation. Again I am not BULLYING others with my post. 

I do work with all of my horse professionals as one solid unit and plan with each of my horses (farrier, vet, chiropractor, masseuse, etc.....)


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I beg your pardon??????
> Money equals love and knowledge????????
> Wow.....


I never said that money equals love or knowledge. Money does pay for veterinary care though. If the OP did not care about her horse, she would not be investing her money or her time in the horse. She is meeting and exceeding the requirements of responsible horse ownership.

Some horses with chronic laminitis will do very well with bare feet and rest. This horse has rotated so that her coffin bone has almost gone through the sole. This horse is not a case that is likely to do well with "benign neglect" (putting the horse out to pasture to rest) like so many will do.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

This is not what you said. 
And none of us ever said she didn't care about her horse. Quite the opposite. 
What we are trying to do is get her to see everything possible by giving her material to study and learn. To understand fully what's going on with her horse and what possibilities there are. 
Its definitely not my way only. In fact, I did say in one of my earlier post I had two things help...a good shoeing and later on barefoot. 

And anybody who has the slightest clue about laminitis can pretty much guess that something is not quite right after reading her statement " first she was almost normal now she got worse".
It's not rocket science......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh, just saw that.....benign neglect....treating a horse for laminitis with the barefoot approach is NOT putting the horse on pasture to rest. It involves a whole slew of things.. from nutrition to the trims, x-rays etc......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

I can't believe the turn this thread has taken - Deserthorsewoman do you work for this hoof school or something? Why are you literally SHOVING it down Stella's throat?? Do you think that helps? 

I haven't seen any indication that Stella needs to abandon her vet and farrier's advice; sometimes founder just cannot be fixed, and while I sincerely hope that isn't the case here you can't blame a good vet or farrier for that. I bet you make a great client, dropping your vet/farrier when they can't perform a miracle :?

Frankly I think it's great that Sweden has laws preventing any hack from picking up some nippers and having a go at some poor horse's feet.

Best of luck Stella, I hope things take a turn for the better, she's a gorgeous mare.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh, now we're getting personal....great. 
I suggest you read and re-read what I posted throughout this thread. At what I was trying to do. And many others here. 
We all hope her horse gets better, no matter how. Some here on the forum have already forgotten what others have yet to learn..........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

No I am not willing to take my horses to people that are not allowed to touch sick horses. 

No I will not have an open mind about taking my horse to people that are not allowed to touch and treat sick horses. 

Why on earth would I do that?

It's not like they made up the laws just for fun?

It's not allowed. Why? Because it's brings the horses more bad than good.

If it was so extremely good and great and puppies and rainbows, wouldn't it be allowed? Wouldn't it be the only thing allowed to do to horses with laminitis and so on?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Now where did I ever say to take your horse to these people? ???
all I did is give you links for stuff to read and maybe consider. And I told you what I personally have seen. 
I said several times that it is your horse and your decision. 
And one more time....you came to this forum to ask for advice and you got it. 
Obviously you have your mind made up. So, that's fine with me.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Her mind is made up because she is already working with highly educated, licensed veterinarians with tremendous experience. 

Maybe you didn't mean to criticize her for not going the barefoot way, but that is what it seemed to me. She is doing all that can be done.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Stella
These should be the article I mentioned too you before about a horse treated at the Royal **** (Edinburgh) Vet School that was a worse case scenario
I've scanned them so not sure how readable they will be. 
They are one of the most reknowned vet schools in Europe so I dont think your Vet would have any concerns about their credibility and it might be worth him discussing your mares case with them should they feel they have gone as far as they can with their expertise.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Celeste said:


> Her mind is made up because she is already working with highly educated, licensed veterinarians with tremendous experience.
> 
> Maybe you didn't mean to criticize her for not going the barefoot way, but that is what it seemed to me. She is doing all that can be done.


You're right, I didn't criticize her for not going barefoot. Proof to that is that I mentioned at least twice Dr. Ric Redden, and in the more recent post Dr. Hans Castelijns. Both of them VETERINARIANS and FARRIERS who both have done extensive work, world-reknown, with laminitic horses and both are giving clinics and speak on Congresses worldwide. . If anybody would have bothered to look them up it would be more than clear that that is not barefoot. 
But no, im being short of yelled at and definitely called crazy. 
Well......whatever...........


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Now where did I ever say to take your horse to these people? ???
> all I did is give you links for stuff to read and maybe consider. And I told you what I personally have seen.
> I said several times that it is your horse and your decision.
> And one more time....you came to this forum to ask for advice and you got it.
> Obviously you have your mind made up. So, that's fine with me.


Then who put the link up for the Swedish Hoofschool in this thread and thought I should take a look at it?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

StellaIW said:


> Then who put the link up for the Swedish Hoofschool in this thread and thought I should take a look at it?


Because it never hurts to see everything. Because you're adult and can decide for yourself. Because you're in Sweden and they are Swedish. Because I've seen quite a few interesting videos they produced. Because I don't know of any farriers in Sweden who heard of Redden or Castelijns. Because they speak your language.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Jaydee, I couldn't read the article, but the pictures were impressive. There is an ethical issue to consider. At what point is it going beyond being humane to save a life if the horse has to go through the kind of pain the horse in those pictures must have gone through?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Celeste said:


> Jaydee, I couldn't read the article, but the pictures were impressive. There is an ethical issue to consider. At what point is it going beyond being humane to save a life if the horse has to go through the kind of pain the horse in those pictures must have gone through?


 I'm not sure I have the patience to write it all out!!
I am inclined to agree with you about whether or not its ethical to put a horse through that - I guess as the horse survived and is now pasture sound if he could answer he might say it was!!!!
I hate to be in those sort of situations and I have in the past let horses go rather than risk them suffering any more in what seemed to be no hope situations
We had reached the point with Flo where all agreed that the treatment she was having (same as your mare) wasn't improving her. I still think that it was the correct course initially and nothing will change my mind on that as without it the pedal bone would definitely have broken through
I'm not sure why removing her shoes and the supports helped - she was NEVER turned out at that stage and stabled 24/7 on really deep shavings - and we padded her feet with foam held on by vetwrap and silage tape to start with. What we did notice was that she seemed immediately more comfortable and though progress was slow it did happen I would emphasise that if she hadn't been a hoof away from being put down I dont think any of us would have done it which is why I say this is just my own experience and not something I'd dare tell anyone else to try unless they had the support of their vet and farrier as I did 
She was shod when she went back into work but since we moved here my farrier commented that as she wasn't doing much due to her stifle problem (she is accident prone) and her feet had gone from being convex to normal concave we should try her barefoot.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Stella, I sincerely hope that your horse comes through this ok.

Now, let me say that you are limiting yourself by immediately eliminating information because you don't like the sources. Saying that something is good or bad because the lawmakers and politicians say so is very naive. The people that make those laws are not the people in the barn with your horse or in the hospital with your child. Yet you haven't yet been able to provide a source that states what law or legislation prevents Swedes from using caregivers of their chosing. I suspect that the general public has made assumptions about the way the law is written and go by those assumptions, not the law itself. But I don't know, of course. I would like to. 

Desertwoman is NOT trying to bully you to make any decisions; she is however trying to bully you into getting more and more information. This is how knowledge progresses. If we always read the same things and always do the same thing and always go by the same standard, we can never improve. I know you want the best for your horse. You are putting out great effort for her, except in improving yourself. It may well be that what you are doing for her is the best course of action; I certainly can't say. But every little piece of knowledge that is gained can help - if not today, then maybe tomorrow. If not with this mare, perhaps with another horse. I encourage you to continue with your loving care of your horse, but I strongly urge you to be open to other ideas and not assume that just because someone in an office tower says so, that it is so. Don't assume just because someone has a degree and seven years experience they know it all, or anything. I have met LOTS of highly educated people that can not apply their education to the real world, whether for horses, people, buildings or in the work place. Don't be cajoled by laws and letters after someone's name. Use your own judgement, based on ever increasing knowledge and experience.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Thank you everyone. 

I understand that you are trying to help out. 

But I have seen what these people do to horses. And I will not let them do it to my horse.

We have really good laws about animal welfare in Sweden and I intend to follow them. 

If these people where as good as they say, they would have no problem with getting a license that allows them to treat sick horses. 

But non of them are able to get it. 

You all seem to dislike educated farriers and veterinarians. Where I am from - these people are very, very good at what they do.

I don't know if the standard of the farriers and veterinarians here are higher, but we trust them and we know that they are good at what they do.

I think that they are open minded. But in this case, with this horse. We will not try to experiment with these alternative ways - from people that are unable to get a licence to treat sick horses. When you have to create laws that forbid these people to treat sick horses in the speed it was done, something about what they do... is clearly very very wrong. 

Can't you see how wrong it would be to take this horse to people like those?

Why can't you understand?

I've read the articles and the things that you post. I take everything under consideration and if there is something that sounds interesting, I discuss it with my vet and farrier. If they think it is a bad idea. Then that is what I will listen to. 

I trust them with my horse. They are well educated people, that can use and apply their knowledge to the real world. They are not misinformed or ignorant as you all seem to think. 

The view on animal welfare is very different here.

The horse jaydee is showing in the article would probably have been put down here in Sweden, because it is unethical to keep an animal with that tremendous pain alive. Animals are lucky that way, compared to people. To have owners that can decide when enough is enough.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I can tell you why "these people" can't get the license. Very easy, and happened the same way in Germany too. The occupation "hoof care specialist" or whatever you want to call it, doesn't exist yet, because its fairly new and just not thought of in the laws. So, since "they" work with horses hooves "they" fall under farrier. A farrier has to apprentice etc etc to be able to shoe horses. " these people" haven't done it, so they can't work. As easy as that. 

Like I said, it happened in Germany too. About 15 years ago "they" came up with a school, tests and final diploma, with a nationwide standard, and since then "they" are legal. "They" had to fight for it and their main argument was that anybody who has apprenticed as a metalworker for three years can, with an additional year with a farrier, become a farrier......European law


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

And since you seem to think I and some others have something against farriers and vets...not so.
We just know, and have seen, farriers and vets who are absolutely outstanding in what they do and others who don't have a clue, are not interested at all, are just out for the money or want to be the gods. 
It's experience, our experience of many years, what makes it possible to recognize the differences. Heck, I didn't have a clue when i was 20.....


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I will not post anything more about my horse in this thread. 

I don't think it will do us any good. I will not take my horse to "barefoot-people" and that's final. 

I don't agree with a lot of the recommendations that they have and neither does my vet or farrier. 

And since this thread only revolves around these things, I see no point in continuing to write anything more about my mare. 

I think you are wrong in recommending barefoot for my horse and so does my vet and farrier. 

And you think that I am wrong. 

I actually will trust my vet and farrier on this.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

And, I agree with you and Celeste, the horse in the article shouldn't have suffered that much. AN owner who had done his homework, should have done something BEFORE it got in that miserable state of health. Since I can't read the article I don't know what happened before it was brought to these people.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

StellaIW said:


> I will not post anything more about my horse in this thread.
> 
> I don't think it will do us any good. I will not take my horse to "barefoot-people" and that's final.
> 
> ...


Good Luck for your horse.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

StellaIW said:


> I will not post anything more about my horse in this thread.
> 
> I don't think it will do us any good. I will not take my horse to "barefoot-people" and that's final.


Fine. Don't. No one is saying that it's the PERFECT or ULTIMATE or ONLY possible treatment for YOUR PARTICULAR situation. We're just saying -- LOOK AT IT.



> I don't agree with a lot of the recommendations that they have and neither does my vet or farrier.


And I suspect the reason you don't agree is precisely because your vet and farrier don't. That, IMO, is not a good enough reason.



> And you think that I am wrong.


No, I think you are not as informed as you could be.



> I actually will trust my vet and farrier on this.


Well, good. I hope you have one of each that is great! I actually never trust any vet, any farrier, or even my own doctor without some research. That's just the way I am. And it has, so far, served me well and taught me a lot.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

^^ that!;-)


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I have looked at it. 

And I don't agree with the methods they would want to use on my horse. 

I see no point in contacting barefoot trimmers. 

Their reputation in Sweden is absolutely horrible, I guess things are different in other places but here? They are one of the biggest "no-no" you could think of. 
And their reputation is not taken out of the blue for no reason.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I really don't understand why you are so bound, or better not bound, on the barefoot way. It is in a lot of cases the last straw for a lot of horses and it does work. I've seen it, and many others here too.
But in lots of cases it would work even better when started right away.

That aside, I did give you two master farriers/vets/teachers' websites who are very successful in treating laminitis, especially chronic laminitis, with carefully thought out and tested AND proven shoeing methods. To study, think about, show and discuss with your vet and farrier. Have you even looked at it????


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

I have told you I have looked at it. 

I accept that you think the barefoot way is good. But it does not mean that I have to think it is a good way.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Stell
aIW;1715854 said:


> I have told you I have looked at it.
> 
> I accept that you think the barefoot way is good. But it does not mean that I have to think it is a good way.


I understand, don't worry. It takes a lot of desperation and gutts to do that when one is so influenced by traditional methods.
But I asked if you have looked at the other sites I gave you. ....not barefoot, carefully studied orthopedic/therapeutic shoeing.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I understand, don't worry. It takes a lot of desperation and gutts to do that when one is so influenced by traditional methods.
> But I asked if you have looked at the other sites I gave you. ....not barefoot, carefully studied orthopedic/therapeutic shoeing.


How many times does Stella have to repeat that it is illegal for these people to treat a horse with laminitis. As in, against the law. Now, I don't know about you, but here in Australia, if we break an animal welfare law, the RSPCA comes along and takes our horses away. As well they should.

The laws in Sweden may be stricter than you like. They may enforce something you don't believe in. That doesn't matter. They are still LAW and as such are legally binding. You can push all you want, suggesting this alternative therapy or that one, but it's not Stella who is not following your advice. She legally cannot. That's all there is to it.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Am I the only one reading ALL that I wrote? Looks like it.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Am I the only one reading ALL that I wrote? Looks like it.


I get that you are trying to offer alternatives. Just bear in mind, that Stella can only go with licensed professionals. If they don't support these therapies, then there is nothing that can be done by you, or me, or anyone else. The only other alternative she has is to stop treatment, which is also illegal.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Im fully aware of that, Chiilaa. This is exactly why I mentioned that she should read, watch, think, show and discuss with her vet and farrier. I did exactly that, talked to my vet about it, which, by the way was a professor for orthopedics at the uni of Pisa, Italy, and had attended a clinic with above mentioned vet/farrier. He said to him it made total sense but we would face the problem of finding a farrier which was capable if fabricating and applying shoes like that. We found one who wouldn't do exactly like it but pretty darn close, shod my mare, who was more down than up btw, and she IMMEDIATELY walked completely sound. 
See, this is what im trying to get across....look, understand, discuss. Nothing else. 
I had both methods work, so I can promote both. I have not seen any, let's say, traditional methods work long term, tho. The best I've seen was barely pasture sound.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

And I have seen several horses treated with the method we are using turn out perfectly fine.

I guess that's why you promote the barefoot way so **** hard. But I've have not seen even a healthy horse doing fine after being trimmed by a barefoot trimmer.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

This is absolutely possible, Stella. But, since you decided to post only a rather blurry pic from the sole with the new shoes on, I'd have to go by that. Maybe if I would have seen better we could have avoided all this arguing. 
It looked so good when she had her first set of shoes, she was improving. Now she's gotten worse. That worries me. 
Im not saying my way or the highway, not at all. I learned in all these years with horses that it can never hurt to know too much. That's all.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes.

But it does not mean that I don't want to learn things only because I don't like whatever you think is good.

I have looked at the information. I don't need to like it in order to have read it. 

She got worse in my opinion, and I had my vet take a look the day after I posted "I don't know if she will make it" and he explained why and I agree with what he told me. 
And we adjusted the problem. We will keep on treating her. She is very good once again.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Well, that is good. Very good. 
You know, it could be very well be that "my" method and " your" method are really not so different after all. I couldn't tell, because I don't have all the information. You instead have all my information. 
Now let's finish the arguing, lets hope she will get sound and if you run into problems, you know where to look;-)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Is this subject done yet??


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

From my side yes;-)


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

StellaIW said:


> I have looked at it.
> 
> And I don't agree with the methods they would want to use on my horse.
> 
> ...


But they are are only ONE source of barefoot information. What about the other barefoot sources provided? Or we can give more. Just as others have stated, some are better than others. I'm not 100% sure I like that Swedish site either, although they do have some things that really made me think and I will revisit their site and videos. I'm not sure I agree with everything they say either. Stop harping on the ONE site. If you didn't like ONE vet, would you stop calling ANY vet? Hardly.


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## StellaIW (Feb 5, 2012)

Please stop. As I told everyone else before, I am not interested in whatever the barefoot method could offer here in Sweden, so please stop trying to convince me it's the way I should go.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Ok. Stella - you are one very patient person. I commend you for continuing on here.

I hope your horse improves. Sending jingles to you both.


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## barrelbeginner (Jan 31, 2012)

hi any updates on how your mare is doing? sorry i didnt read the latest postts


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