# German Martingale



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

either go cold turkey, only use it when he's doing terribly, or preferably over time, maybe once a week, adjust it so it's slightly looser untill he doesnt need it at all. but whatever you do don't keep using it as is.

also, too much emphasis on the head imo.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

yeah, you can't develop a dependence on it. Do you know if there is any reason why your horse bobs his head up and down? What will he do if you have hardly any contact? does he run along with his head up at all times?

Have you tried taking up a reasonable contact and then leaving it the same more or less and working on getting him to step more vigorously forward?

Is it possible that his head tossing is related to saddle fit or bit dicomfort? I , of course, am not implying there is such, but those are things you want to think about first.


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

Aren't german martingales just a strap with a ring either end that goes infront of the horses neck to stop the reing going over the horses head or do I have the wrong piece of equipment in mind?

I think from the way that germans works, it could be that he is used to the contact being "closer together" or something, so maybe without it your hands are wider and he isn't used to the feel he had before and therefor doesn't maintain?
I agree with the others, I dont use a piece of equipment when I am riding if I can't use it in the show ring.

*Edit, my bad, wrong piece of equipment LOL! Was thinking Irish Martingale *


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

I would say go without it, or maybe just use it say once or twice a week or something.

Mitch and I are having the same problem at the moment, but we have started without any extra equipment so he's learning fast what I want.

What happens if you growl him and keep asking him down when he's bobbing his head around?
If Mitch starts that and I growl him and keep asking him down (Just the standard "AAH!") he puts his head right back down, I don't go easy on him at all because I don't want him thinking he can walk over me.
So far we've been working on it about a week, but he's getting far better.

Good luck, just keep trying


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

He's been ridden in a high headed frame forever...I never thought much of it or minded when we were just gaming because thats where he liked it and it didnt effect anything we were doing, but now we are doing more performance classes, dressage, equitation...and I wanted to paint a prettier picture.

If I am not continuously drawing his head down he will put his head right back up. I ask by barely touching one rein, or by see-sawing my hands and squeezing with my legs)

I haven't tried "Growling" at him  Maybe I should though. I'm pretty good at putting his head right back down as soon as he brings it up, but at what point does repetition not work? LOL. I've spent so much of our ride doing that, that I feel like it's a game for him now.


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

Possibly try a tie down, then that way it only comes into effect when his head is up.

Also see-sawing is not the correct way to get a contact. I know you ride western but still, a slight touch, like you said, should do it, just lightly play with the inside rein.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

More gimmicks and devices are not the answer. You need to get some help from someone that is successful and can see your horse and how you are riding him.

You should only ask for a few strides at a time and make sure you give a good release.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

I used to have tons of trouble with this and thought I would never really "get his head set" The problem was that he didn't have the muscle to hold himself. Pulling the head down and in (ex. german or running martingale or seesawing) causes the horse to drop its head but fail to step under itself and achieve any type of collection. They lean on the bit more and fail to hold their own head up.

Even though I could force Jake to run around with his head down I soon figured that my arms were going to fall off if I kept using that method, probably his mouth too. So when I really started to work with him holding himself and moving correctly he could only do it for a few strides before he would lift his head and drop it again. It became a battle of trying to force him to hold it...which he never did. He never tried because there was no release.

I figured out to release him BEFORE he dropped the collection, and that helped everything. If he would go three strides before coming out of the bridle and dropping his back, I would release him at two. That way he started to try harder, and we started building the correct muscle for him to hold himself together with no gadgets. He knew there was going to be an end to the hard work and that I wasn't going to force him to use more stamina than he had. Two strides collected, 10 strides relaxed, 2 strides collected, 10 strides relaxed.....ext but stop that before your horse gets too tired for the day. I found its all about not overworking and the horse understanding that it won't have to be working that hard for a long time.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Just as a clarification - The see-sawing was how I was taught, and I use it when he's being very hard mouthed as a "Second step", I touch one rein to draw his face down, and if he doesn't listen, I go ahead and see-saw and just increase my leg pressure and release one he does as I ask.

Horsesdontle, I'll try that, thanks


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Sadly, your horse went well and looked good because he really didn't have a choice. Once the martingale was gone, he did. His balance and engagement ensured that he would go the way he knew, which is probably incorrectly. 

You need to take several steps back and figure out what is causing the horse to go poorly. Heavy on the forehand? Unbent? Too bent? Any number of good reasons. Then, you must retrain that issue out. Otherwise, you will always need a gimmick to achieve you goals, most likely.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

He has been ridden high headed forever, he's eighteen now and his previous owner didn't do anything about that, and neither did I at first...So he has a LOT of bulging neck muscles underneath, but hardly any ontop, which is why I think doing what Horsesdontle said will help since we were having similar problems. He's not really heavy on his forehand, he's really balanced all around, he just likes to have his head in the air, LOL. Kinda defeats the purpose there.

I had a friend say I should use the martingale as a muscle building thing, but I think he's just leaning on it now, since it has been so long and there hasn't been a change.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> Just as a clarification - The see-sawing was how I was taught, and I use it when he's being very hard mouthed as a "Second step", I touch one rein to draw his face down, and if he doesn't listen, I go ahead and see-saw and just increase my leg pressure and release one he does as I ask.
> 
> Horsesdontle, I'll try that, thanks


Sadly, Thats how most people are taught. :? I used that for a long time. Its stuck in my brain so much. I just recently had a lesson with an instructor that considers it a huge no no. And she kept telling me to stop doing it when I wasn't even conscious of it. The horse was coming out of the bridle, and only the correct amount of leg would fix it pushing the horse into a good propulsion and engagement would the horse get into a head set....nothing I did with the reins, other than keeping steady contact. Though subconsciously I kept correcting with my hands. 

From what I've been learning the seesawing locks up the horse's jaw, causing stiffness not softness. And the horse will lower its head, but keep its neck and pole stiff, creating problems for asking for cues later one.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> He has been ridden high headed forever, he's eighteen now and his previous owner didn't do anything about that, and neither did I at first...So he has a LOT of bulging neck muscles underneath, but hardly any ontop, which is why I think doing what Horsesdontle said will help since we were having similar problems. He's not really heavy on his forehand, he's really balanced all around, he just likes to have his head in the air, LOL. Kinda defeats the purpose there.
> 
> I had a friend say I should use the martingale as a muscle building thing, but I think he's just leaning on it now, since it has been so long and there hasn't been a change.


Jake didn't even know how to give to the bit when I got him at 16yo. Lots of lower neck muscle. Even on turn out he keeps his head high. So they do sound similar. 

But the main person that has giving me awesome advice on retraining Jake is Allison. I would listen to anything she has to say. Jake's issues were mostly balance issues from overbending and popping out his shoulder and not tracking up, so I got his balance in order while getting him to move properly into the bridle and he has been falling into it. He still now leans on the bit, looking for the support that he was used to. But overtime muscle should help that.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Are you sure you are using a german martingale? According to trainers I know, it teaches the horse to give into the bit and flex at the pole w/o forcing the head in a set position like a running martingale. I've never used one, but that's what I heard....for what it's worth!


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

This is a german martingale just to make sure everyone is on the same page. There is a set of reins attached to the bit with loops. The martingale is forked and attached to the breast collar, it runs through the bit and attaches to the loops on the reins. 

Like a part draw rein effect. And like any gadget used, to try and get the head down it pulls the head in a way that is down and towards the chest. Some horses learn that the release is in dropping their head and then only use the rein itself, and the draw rein effect is not used. 

Yet 6/7 horses I have tried it on, Learn very quickly when you have it on, or when you have it off. Its useful in occasional situations, but never as a constant thing. But the fact is that when you remove it the bit will be pulled up from the bit to the riders hand instead of straight back, like with a german martingale. The horse needs to learn to relax and not raise its head on contact. Any way of forcing a horses head down and in, doesn't mean that they are using their body as they should. In the right hands (which I don't believe I am capable of using, so I don't use them after I didn't have the technique down) I can see how they could be useful. 

I hope that made sense. >_< I feel like a babbled.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If a person will use a little patience and feel instead of trying to use brute force and get instant results then they will have a much better result in the end and it will not take much longer.

Rather than trying to force the head down if you put light pressure on the reins and wait for the horse to find the right answer and then give a full release then you will be far more successful.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

OP- Why don't you focus on getting him in-frame in places other than just his head? It sounds to me like he is extremely unbalanced, and may be using his head to keep himself going. If you help him collect and round himself out, he should be more willing to drop his head for you...and keep it there.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> If a person will use a little patience and feel instead of trying to use brute force and get instant results then they will have a much better result in the end and it will not take much longer.
> 
> Rather than trying to force the head down if you put light pressure on the reins and wait for the horse to find the right answer and then give a full release then you will be far more successful.



Although I agree with the sentiment of what you are saying, I do think that 'brute force' is a little over the top for a description.

I for the last 40 years have pooh poohed gadgets and gizmos, but you know they have their place, IF and I repeat *IF *people know how to use them. With most of these things if used sympathetically and occasionally they can help a horse and rider progress, and no brute force needed.

This change of thought came after a year of battling with Mr G to get him to drop his head, he is another one with well developed under neck muscles because he has been a giraffe all of his life. At a training session last month we pooped a set of draw reins on him, it really helped me to see where and when I was dropping contact with him, and how to keep him in a better frame.

Would I ride in them the whole time, no certainly not, I never use them more than once a week, but we are starting to make progress. 

I agree no brute force, but don't right of all artificial training aides in this category.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You're right of course. There are no absolutes. I have a gag snaffle that I sometimes use on older spoiled horses and it works well for them and then I can get back to my regular snaffle.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Thanks guys. I know this may sound bad, but he really isn't all that unbalanced. It just paints a terrible picture when he's flying around a dressage ring, his head in the air like he's howling to the moon...And when I say "Not all that unbalanced", I mean that he does have SOME issues that are a linked to his head being giraffe-like. 

I'm hoping, if I build back his upper neck muscles it'll come easier and his fugly awkward neck will go away to be replaced by a nicely toned, new, actually horse-looking neck....Lol. We're just working towards the finish, and I'll take all of this advice to heart and see what works.

*EDIT - That sounded so vain, like I'm only doing it for looks...Which I assure you I'm not*


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Take heart Sorrel, look at this before and after










Well before and a work in progress:wink:


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Dressage is a set of building blocks where you start with the most basic and work your way up. I'm not opposed to a skilled person using certain training aids on certain horses in certain instances like some "anti training aid people" are. But if your horse is falling apart without the martingale, my guess is he's not going as properly as you think he is. There is a building block missing from your foundation. 

From the sound of your posts I think you're trying to ride the front end of the horse instead of the back end. For a horse to be balanced, collected, muscled, on the bit, etc, it's all about the horse's back end. See-sawing is NEVER correct in dressage. In fact, I don't even worry about my horse's headset. I work the whole horse and somehow the 'frame' just comes together. If your horse is head bobbing my guess is that with the german he's probably avoiding the bit (giving to pressure, he has no choice, but more avoiding rather then accepting) and probably a little on the forehand (does he support himself with your hands instead of having self carriage?). When you take the german off I have a feeling he's avoiding, just by going up with his head this time. Our goal is to have a horse with self carriage, who can keep going correctly even if you let go. I'd probably work a bit without the german for a while and concentrate more on his lateral work.


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## ChingazMyBoy (Apr 16, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> More gimmicks and devices are not the answer. You need to get some help from someone that is successful and can see your horse and how you are riding him.
> 
> You should only ask for a few strides at a time and make sure you give a good release.


I agree.

In future I think you may have learnt that it's not best too use equipment to achieve what you want So many times when my horse is being rather 'giraffe' like I've wanted to put a piece of equipment on him and say 'Problem solved'. But I continued working with him and now he has a lovely, soft movement which looks much nicer than any piece of equipment could make him look. 

Stay patient and keep trying, I'm sure you'll get it in the end!! 

Am I thinking of something else? Or can see-sawing have a 'nut-cracker' effect?


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

ChingazMyBoy said:


> Am I thinking of something else? Or can see-sawing have a 'nut-cracker' effect?


Hmm I think you're thinking of something else. Single jointed bits have a nut cracker effect when pulled back evenly. Maybe you're think of that?

See sawing instead pulls the bit side to side jerking along the horse's mouth from one side to the other. Even small light amounts of it makes the bit rub across the tongue,bars and corners of the mouth.

GH - I love the change in that horse he looks wonderful.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

For starters, he may be bopping his head because he's dropping his inside shoulder from too much contact on the inside rein. In english riding, your outside rein is always on the horse(contact, not lying there), used like a sponge. Your inside rein, when teaching the horse to come round is a give and take movement in time with the inside hind leg. When it comes under, use the inside rein then release. When its released, use your outside rein, squeeze the water out of the sponge, then when you take your inside rein, let the water back in but keep the contact always. Is he quite a cheeky boy? How long has he worked in an outline like this for? May be a lack of muscles, if its cheeky, every time he raises his head reprimand him with a pony club kick, don't pull the reins. Dressage riders goals are to have contact with the reins, but using legs and seat to control the horse and to move away from the hands. Try and soften him up, what bit do you have in? If he's being stubborn, try a narrower bit. And legs, legs and more legs! You'll have legs of steel in no time, hope this helped!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Thanks Duffy, 

Future reference, the only bit I can show him english in for HS Equestrian Team is a "Smooth snaffle" so I have him in a D ring.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

I would leave the martingale to gather dust. Like others said, it takes muscle, it takes the rider learning how to ride the horse with proper contact and it takes patience. Have you taken a lesson? If that's not possible, video your riding and ask for a critique. You will learn tons. 

Remember, it's not going to happen overnight. Expect to see some kind of result in about three months. It's like expecting to run five miles when all you have been doing is sitting on the couch. Your horse has to work up to it. He will get there but I would ditch the martingale. If you have side reins, try them. If not, have someone show you how to use them. It will really confuse your horse in the beginning but they really help with building muscle and balance. 

Also, it's not just about just buildng muscle in his neck. It's about building muscle all over - topline, abs..... This is going to allow him to come underneath himself which is really what you are looking for. Not just where his head is. He has to have the proper muscling to be able to carry himself in a completely different way.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Also, you have to remember. What you are teaching your horse now will be his education for life. You have your duty to teach him correctly, or get help to train him properly. I don't want to sound awful, but if for what ever reason you had to sell him, you want anybody to be able to ride him with the same aids.

D ring snaffles are best I've found. Have you made sure its the right length and width for him?
Good luck


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

DuffyDuck said:


> What you are teaching your horse now will be his education for life.


Isnt the horse 18?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Is he? Apologies! Serves me right for not reading the thread throughly!


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## SaddleDragon (Sep 20, 2010)

It sounds like he hasnt developed the balance without it yet. Does he give it to you at all without it on? If not, you used it too much and he is resisting. If so, then stop using it and just keep asking. Repitition develops muscling, muscling is needed for balance. Balance is needed for consistency. He just isnt there yet. 

I use things similar to this, but never for a whole session. I use them more as translators. Once the horse understands what I am asking for, I dont need it anymore. They are littlerally only used for maybe 10 minutes a session for maybe 3 sessions. Then they are worthless.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Yes Delete he is indeed 18, and has been set in his way of going for a long time. This is why it MAY be appropriate to look for a little help in the form of artificial aides to try and make the changes.

You can see from Mr Gilmores pics there how far we have come without any outside assistance, but a year on, even though we have built new muscle he still prefers to carry his head in the old way. Working with draw reins once a week has helped us to take another step forward.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't think it's the horse, it's the rider. He's not dependent on it, you are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Yep, look at the rider, not the horse. Horses reflect 100% of what we do, or lack there of, in the saddle. They are mirrors to the riders. 

As Ian Millar says "A good rider blames themselves, a poor rider blames their horse"

*I highly suggest the OP starts taking dressage lessons. *There are very apparent holes in her training, and her horses.

A horse knows as much as their rider, a rider only knows as much as their trainer.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

upnover said:


> dressage is a set of building blocks where you start with the most basic and work your way up. I'm not opposed to a skilled person using certain training aids on certain horses in certain instances like some "anti training aid people" are. But if your horse is falling apart without the martingale, my guess is he's not going as properly as you think he is. There is a building block missing from your foundation.
> 
> From the sound of your posts i think you're trying to ride the front end of the horse instead of the back end. For a horse to be balanced, collected, muscled, on the bit, etc, it's all about the horse's back end. See-sawing is never correct in dressage. In fact, i don't even worry about my horse's headset. I work the whole horse and somehow the 'frame' just comes together. If your horse is head bobbing my guess is that with the german he's probably avoiding the bit (giving to pressure, he has no choice, but more avoiding rather then accepting) and probably a little on the forehand (does he support himself with your hands instead of having self carriage?). When you take the german off i have a feeling he's avoiding, just by going up with his head this time. Our goal is to have a horse with self carriage, who can keep going correctly even if you let go. I'd probably work a bit without the german for a while and concentrate more on his lateral work.


well said!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I will agree that my lack of knowledge in training any form of an english horse is the problem. 

We aren't looking to do any sort of competitive dressage, it's just a pickup event for HS Equestrian Team, a lot of kids do it without having ever ridden english before in their lives, which makes me feel better about the whole situation...But of course I want to help Rebel and myself to at least have a shot in placing, because things tend to go wrong and if we can get any other events to participate in, it will help our team and ourselves...

Also, do you think I should ONLY be riding him in his D ring, or can I change him back to his gaming bit every now and then? I figure even when we are doing our gaming and western events I can still work on drawing him back up into his position, during the warmup and cooling down periods and sometime in between turning the barrels.


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