# Filly Learned A Lesson- Running In Stall



## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

so my 2yr old filly learned a lesson the hard way....

today coming in from out in the paddock she decided to pull s**t with my boyfriend. She got to the doorway of the barn and planted her feet. Now our barn is small, just 2 stalls. her stall is on the left, and the broodmares birthing stall in directly infront. well he had a lead on her, and she did some facy footwork and bolted on him. pulled the lead out of his hand, hit him with her hind end, and took off into the broodmares stall. he ended up with a few of his fingers scraped up pretty bad. one is missing skin from the tip of the finger back to the joint, and one of his nails is turning black :-(

i dont stand for that. at all. not in my barn! i sent him to the house and delt with her myself. i took her out and tried to walk her in, she trampled me too. i had enough! after a brief beating we started on the real lesson. we walked in and out of the barn over and over and over, with the shank over her nose. by the end she was walking in again. i will be the only one dealing with her for the next few days. i cant tollerate that. you can just get hurt too badly from something like that. 

sorry, had to vent.:evil:


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I totally know where you're coming from. And I'm not going to be one of the people who try and bash you for saying, "after a brief beating," lol.

My girls just get stupid sometimes. Ricci's 17, and she knows better, so the slightest misbehavior gets a good deal of punishment. Gracie is a yearling who is still trying to throw her weight around, and there's been plenty of times when I had to give her quite a spanking to back off.

Don't feel bad, I wouldn't tolerate it either. I probably would have handled it the same way. There are some things that simply aren't ok, no ifs, ands, or buts. Hopefully she learns quick and you can start strolling in the barn with her on a loose lead. =]


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

thanks. glad you understand. i just cant tollerate it when i know she knows better. she used to stroll loose lead, but all the sudden she had to test her limits, with my boyfriend. thats part of the problem, she tries to push him around and test her limits with him... because she KNOWS she gets away with NOTHING with me!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I've had to go back to the basics a couple times as well.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

My 2 year old gelding tests me too. I recently moved him and unfortunately no round pen here so I thought I would try the lunge line. First time he went really well then last weekend he charged at me twice. He did this in the round pen before but I had stopped him of it. Scared the crap outta me. little turkey. Well this weekend we are going back in and I wont take no guff from him. (He also had 8 weeks off due to hernia surgery so he's a little loco at the moment).


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Good for you not putting up with that kind of junk. Don't feel bad about laying down the law, sometimes it just needs done. As far as the "brief beating"... I'm all for not abusing horses, but my horses better not abuse me. Some things just can't be put up with.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

i agree! I bet you will get a couple of people on here that disagree and get mad and arguementative.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

haha my pet peeve is when horses push or test me, i have the paitence of a saint in the saddle, but on the ground i push right back  those darn youngsters always have to cause some trouble


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## 7Ponies (May 21, 2009)

"A brief beating" can be said in a kinder gentler way by simply stating you had a "come to Jesus" meeting with her.

I had a horse that did this to me once. I didn't have to "have a come to Jesus" meeting with the horse, what I did instead was BACK my horse into and out of the stall over and over. Settled him down pretty quickly.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

^^^ Told Ya!


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## 7Ponies (May 21, 2009)

Actually, I am not disagreeing with her at all... but instead of calling it a "beating", I call it a "come to Jesus meeting". Same thing, just worded to sound a bit better


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Babies like to test boundaries...period; it's how effectively you deal with it, that they realize they probably shouldn't do it again.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Haha, I have a dressage whip in the barn is called the "Gracie beater" because we use it to get Gracie to back off. I don't really care how nice or mean it sounds, if my horse needs a spanking, she's sure going to get one, lol.


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

It sounds like you handled it well, I'd have done the same thing! I've done the same thing...but my Clyde X filly has figured out she is in fact bigger than me! LOL Doesn't work to her advantage the way I'm sure she hoped it would!

In addition to having a tune up with her, I'd see how your boyfriend was handling her - perhaps he was being a little lax about his demands of her? Give them an inch, they'll take a foot.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I do agree that you could have worded the "beating" part, but I do agree that you need to make sure that the boundaries are very clear. In the wild when a horse acts up, the higher horse kicks the misbehaving horse, so sometimes we need to do the equivalent of a kick to get the horse to pay attention, and stop doing what they were doing. I am currently working with my 4 year old Arab mare, and I have found that at the moment she is completely dead to the halter pulling against her face, so I have to use a stud chain on her for now till she learns to respect my space, and not jump on top of me when she gets upset. I don't like having to be so forceful with her, but at the same time I agree, I will not allow that sort of behavior no matter whats going on. Glad that you worked with her, and she was doing well when you ended.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Funny for all my rough ways and force I have never laid a beating on a horse. The last thing I ever would think about was going to the whip for discipline.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

Been there, hate that! My horse came with serious stall agression. Any stall was his stall. I had to always have a shank on, he had a habit of bolting into ANY open stall. not just his. I got knocked on my tush many times, but after a few months, he could walk in with no lead rope and wait for his halter to be removed. It took alot of agression on my part, then patience (walking three steps, stopping, starting over)

Don't feel bad! There are times they need to be knocked down a few pegs. This horse was a "give an inch, take a mile" horse. He got his fair share of threats and beatings


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> Funny for all my rough ways and force I have never laid a beating on a horse. The last thing I ever would think about was going to the whip for discipline.


Sorry for the double post... what one person considers a beating might be different then anothers. A good shanking, agressive posturing, angry "knock it off" or "back up!" and possibly a smack or two is my definition of beating. It doesn't hurt the hore, but it reminds them whose on top.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I call it a spanking. I will take a short crop when I need to remind him of his manners as far as crowding me and trying to use his size to get what he wants. It's not a viscious beating, I don't wack him any harder then I'd wack my own shin. It's just enough to get his attention. Safety is important and if a crop is what you need to get there... then a crop is what you need. I'll also use the end of my lead rope. It's better then my hand....


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

Oh I've done that too. He wasn't paying attention, stepped all over my toes, and weelll, he broke my toenails off (and I was in boots! Riding Boots!). I beat his butt and my mom started yelling. She doesn't think he needs to learn lessons. Ugh. You handled it perfectly.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I *never*use the whip for discipline. Ever ever ever ever.
It is an aid, an extension of the leg if you will. Using it to punish a horse for severe misbehavior doesn't make sense to the horse if they are used to it as an aid.

As far as for their behavior, I discipline but more just with my body language. I only smack a horse for biting or something. Otherwise I just use body language to get their attention. My horses who have been with me for sometime understand when my mood changes from "oh that's cute" to "excuse me there buster" and smarten up quite quickly.

For young horses it is a bit different because they don't yet have established boundaries of understanding of how people work. So, sometimes you do need to smarten them up. But again, ask with body language and enforce with it too before you go to anything else.

I also like stud chains, they make my life so easy!! But I always use them with a lead rope as well so I'm just using them if I need to.

For severely disobedient horses, I will lay down the law, clearly, black and white and only once. If I get BS from a horse I let them know I dont like it in a way they understand and then that's it. I never fight a horse because they will always win. Just reminders of the rules.


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## Iluvjunior (Feb 15, 2009)

If horses behave bad at my barn they have a date with one of the other ones so to say. Where the lead gelding pulls them down the trail and with one bad horse we had you could see skid marks going down the trail from where he dragged her along.(This was a horse doing the pulling BTW.)


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I geuss I should clarify. I don't ride with a crop or a whip so with my horses it's not an extension of an aide. I bought my crop to use the handle end as an aide to press against my horses shoulder and or side when he crowds me (he's young). My hand and my thumb weren't enough to say back off but the handle gave me just enough. Sort of like an extension. I was having an issue with him trying to run past me out of his stall or pushing me out of the way so I use the crop to smack his chest. He backs off and he's learned.


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## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

Well...everyone has their own way of training whether it be physical contact (such as the whip) or body language. I used to be the type to use physical contact myself, not only did it make me feel better lol but I soon realized that it just didn't work. I use body language now because I want my horse to actually WANT to do something, and not just do it because they are afraid of getting smacked. Just something to think about, and unfortuanately, it doesn't make you feel better like hitting them does lol but it gets through their head a LOT quicker than hitting.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I agree. We always use the term "beat" (as in, I beat the crap out of my cat for shredding the toilet paper which basically involved catching her in the act, grabbing her by the scruff and giving her a shake), and I highly doubt OP would actually "beat" her horse in an abusive way. I actually like the word spank to - I never use whips because if you've left a mark, you've gone to far in my opinion. I love my short crop - it has a LOUD leather popper on the end and is fantastic. My Arab mare got one spanking on the butt with it when she kicked my boyfriend as a 2 year old and at 10 years old she's never shown her heels to anyone again. She also has ZERO fear of whips - using a lunge whip in the round pen is pointless because she just trots around it to come stand by me :lol: Discipline with a crop should be "quiet" and effective - not a lot of flailing to make them scared, just using it as an extension of your arm to let 'em know it was BAD.

ANYWAY. Good for you OP. They're bigger then us, and doled out responsibly, I've never had physical discipline cause my horses any fear. There was a big Warmblood filly at the barn I was working at and leading her out in the morning was downright dangerous - she'd simply drag you all over the place and had zero respect. I grabbed a chain and a Dressage whip and within one morning, I had her walking respectfully (no beating, just holding the whip in front of her chest and giving her light taps when she crowded me). Her owners actually showed up when I was leading her out one morning, and I was thinking "Oh crap, this is bad, I should have asked". They were AMAZED. They saw how I was handling her, saw that I wasn't using ANY more force then neccesary, just a few aids to gently remind her she needed to walk on her OWN feet and were absolutely impressed. It just never occurred to them. In retrospect, I probably should have asked, but it makes me pose the question of when do you draw the line? I was the one who HAD to handle her in the morning and for nightly bring in, and I see no reason to put my life in danger when I can solve the problem in a calm and efficient way. It only took a handful of lessons for her to be walking like a dream on a regular leadrope and her owners were beside themselves with thanks! (Heh heh, I love owners like that!)


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I say that I'm going to beat my horse with a stick all of the time. Do I mean it? Absolutely not. I might give him a good kick in the butt (or ego rather) every once in awhile, but he needs it every once in awhile. Some horses need more aggressive handling than others, because they are naturally more dominant. Nothing wrong with that.

I also use my crop as my "respect stick". I carry it with me every time I work with Ice, even though I very rarely use it. Before I started that, Ice was a nightmare to bring out of his stall, horrible at tacking up, horrible at standing still, horrible at walking through grass.....Now as soon as I open the stall door he approaches me and puts his nose into his halter, doesn't even think of turning to try and bare his teeth at me when I tack him up and move in his space where he doesn't want me, and he'll actually stand in a patch of grass and wait for me to tell him "okay" before lowering his head. Some may say I could have done all of that with a lead rope, but he doesn't respect that flimsy cotton thing for crap. When I do use it, I smack my boot, the side of my leg, the ground, and if he really needs it i poke him with it in the shoulder.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I also like stud chains, they make my life so easy!! But I always use them with a lead rope as well so I'm just using them if I need to.


excuse the double post, but i just noticed this. You use stud chains on your horses? I thought they understood your body language enough not to screw with you. Maybe they just understand what you look like before you give them a good jerk.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree completely with how you handled it. After all this is a half ton animal we are talking about and she did some pretty good damage to your man. I also agree with you taking over, if she respects you then you are the one who needs to be handling her. If your bf wants to help you need to teach him to act with her as you do so she knows she cannot get her way.

I see no problem with physical force with a horse. As long as it is to the point and not out of anger, it is sometimes just plain necessary. 

Horses are big, heavy animals, they cant say "hey im in a hurry look out" so they will just push right through you or pull antics like your filly did, and you have to resort to horsey language (physicality) to say back "oh, no you aren't, you will do as I say and not pull that crap" in a few little smacks with the crop. 

Kudos for handling the situation, hope your hubby gets to feeling better. Did he need stitches?


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

7Ponies said:


> "A brief beating" can be said in a kinder gentler way by simply stating you had a "come to Jesus" meeting with her.


im not a religious person, so i dont feel i have the right to say something like that. BUT i also posted this right after i was done with her, so i was still a but fuming since my boyfriend was bleeding all over the place. looking back i would have said... "layed a heavy hand on her"- i actually got this from the Amish. they tell us that a lot when they break horses for us or something, and they were tough to break. "after i layed a heavy hand on him, he thought about it a bit" lol



EveningShadows said:


> but my Clyde X filly has figured out she is in fact bigger than me! LOL Doesn't work to her advantage the way I'm sure she hoped it would!
> 
> In addition to having a tune up with her, I'd see how your boyfriend was handling her - perhaps he was being a little lax about his demands of her? Give them an inch, they'll take a foot.


i never want a horse to learn theyre larger or stronger than me. so i dont give them the chance. i could only imagine what hell i would be in for lol. and hes not very lax with her. he tries to be firm and get what he needs, and for the most part he does. but this is also something i have to keep in mind, hes not horse savvy. hes used to just my broodmare who is a complete baby and 13. shes a been there done that horse and loves him to death. she could care less about anyone else! so when something like that happens, im not sure he knows what to do, or how to fix it quickly (for example, when she got happy feet i would have started backing her *** right back out the barn). 



RiosDad said:


> Funny for all my rough ways and force I have never laid a beating on a horse. The last thing I ever would think about was going to the whip for discipline.


 i didnt use a whip. i dont even own one.... oh crap. that was a lie. i have one thats real long for lunging, but thats all. and thats all ive ever used it for. i actually just used a nylon lead.



ilovemyPhillip said:


> Oh I've done that too. He wasn't paying attention, stepped all over my toes, and weelll, he broke my toenails off (and I was in boots! Riding Boots!). I beat his butt and my mom started yelling. She doesn't think he needs to learn lessons. Ugh. You handled it perfectly.


 my mother is the same when. she gets all upset when i lay a hand on her "baby". i cant have a horse get to the point your describing. we bred that horse ourselves- i told my mother before she was even broke that "she WILL be well broke. i will NOT be ashamed by her acting like an out of control fool, and i will NOT have my mares breeding career tarnished"



Honeysuga said:


> After all this is a half ton animal we are talking about and she did some pretty good damage to your man.
> 
> I also agree with you taking over, if she respects you then you are the one who needs to be handling her. If your bf wants to help you need to teach him to act with her as you do so she knows she cannot get her way.
> 
> ...


she did do damage, and i was ****ed. when i went down to see what her problem was, and tried to walk her in myself and she tried to trample me, i had had it. i wasnt mad she did it to me, i can handle that, i can fix it, i know how to not get hurt if they do it. he doesnt know these things, and she hurt him good. 

she respects me greatly. but im not sure why. shes always respected me. the only problem is, if im not home he has to deal with her himself. so we have a lot of work to do shortly. because she will be learning to respect him as well. 

no stitches. which was good. i didnt want to be sitting at the hospital on thanksgiving! i would have to sit with all those morons that try to deep fry their turkies but dont have a clue of what theyre doing!! lol he lost a good portion of skin though, from the tip f his thumb back to his knuckle, and a chunk on the pointer finger too. poor boy. he was shaking and pale and bleeding all over. he actually cried a little to. but i think that was just his ego there. she got the best of him and i think he was a little embarassed. i mean, this is a guy who cut his leg with a chainsaw and laughed about it!!!


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## Appy Luvr (Mar 16, 2009)

I had the same type situation a LONG time ago, when my 11 yr old was almost 2, he decided he wasn't going to let me lead him into the barn anymore so attempted to trample/drag/knock me over, etc. We had one very short lesson with the lunge whip used on his hind end and I have never had another problem with him entering a barn. He was just being a jerk because he is ALOT bigger than me. He now knows I'm the boss and he has to listen whether he likes it or not. Also he has NO fear of a whip as I use one sorting cattle on him all the time. I am not a fan of beating horses, I'm surrounded by that sort of thing all the time since I live in "cowboy" country, but I have no problem giving them a good whack if they are trying to hurt me.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Appy Luvr said:


> but I have no problem giving them a good whack if they are trying to hurt me.


 im not a fan of it either, but she DID hurt someone. so sorry sweetie... maybe you will re-think things next time!!!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I don't believe a smack does anything. It is the attitude that goes with it when you are angry. YOu suddenly become dominat and the horse fears that more then the little love tap.
Someone walking around all the time with a crop to command obedience is just like a mother threatening her kids all the time with a spanking.
It wears thin.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I don't believe a smack does anything. It is the attitude that goes with it when you are angry. YOu suddenly become dominat and the horse fears that more then the little love tap.
> Someone walking around all the time with a crop to command obedience is just like a mother threatening her kids all the time with a spanking.
> It wears thin.


I think it depends on the mindset of the horse. A horse whos just in a surly mood or feeling testy will straighten up real quick. "Love taps" probabply won't work one who's hard set on being boss. Thats where the body language and voice come in.


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## Appy Luvr (Mar 16, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> im not a fan of it either, but she DID hurt someone. so sorry sweetie... maybe you will re-think things next time!!!


 I was agreeing with you  There is definitly a time for some strong discipline and I would have done the same thing if I'd been you


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't carry a crop all the time, only when I am working on ground manners. I use my leadline if I need something in a hurry. It has to do with reaction time. I think you have about 3 seconds to react with a punishment for it to register.

I don't hit from anger.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

justsambam08 said:


> excuse the double post, but i just noticed this. You use stud chains on your horses? I thought they understood your body language enough not to screw with you. Maybe they just understand what you look like before you give them a good jerk.


I have never jerked on a horse with a stud chain. I only use stud chains when loading onto a trailer, or other strenuous situations where the horse may be liable to get a little silly. The one time I didn't use a chain unloading my current horse (who has been in a trailering accident - so get very nervous around trailers) was when I got my foot nice and broken by his hoof standing on it. I find that when I have the chain, he is way more willing to pay attention to me in strenuous situations (in his case - around trailers).
I was also actually taught how to use a stud chain by a professional stud handler - something a lot of people can't say.
Please don't assume I treat my horses poorly because you have never seen me around a horse, nor do you know me in person. I know that people are jerks and assuming the best about them is usually wrong. But it is still good etiquette, especially on the internet where there is no tone of voice or facial expression, to act politely and not insinuate things.
Thanks


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

ugh I know where you are coming from. I had a rescue case that was a total nightmare to handle. Literally almost killed me on several occasions. He was small (15hh) but wow was he strong! I had one "come to Jesus" meeting with him and he didn't do it as bad after that. However, when I used a stud chain on him, which was frequent, there was no yanking involved. He was abused and I didn't hold much against him... except when he tried to kill me.

Now, he is happy with his new MALE owner where he is cutting cows and running barrels. Whew! No more evil rescues for me!


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

*It doesn't hurt the hore, but it reminds them whose on top.

*... ...I'm sorry this just came out wrong 

Ok... done now, just spit coffee all over my monitor - glad I'm not the only one who occasionally forgets the S!


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

^ LOL !


Thats good, she learned a lesson. ! 
I hate it when people let their horses walk all over them and don't correct them... You see plenty of these people and horses at the vets.Oh jeez... I clean stalls for a vet clinic on Saturdays,and you wouldn't BELIEVE how many times iv had to jump outa the way because of a runaway horse or kicker. Its crazy, the amount of owners that bring in crazy stallions/mares/foals in for shots, wearing a flimsy halter and not giving a ****,whether the horse kills someone or not.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

New_image said:


> *It doesn't hurt the hore, but it reminds them whose on top.*
> 
> ... ...I'm sorry this just came out wrong
> 
> Ok... done now, just spit coffee all over my monitor - glad I'm not the only one who occasionally forgets the S!


hahahahahahaaaaa oh i didnt catch that one. thats good.

riosdad- its not like i carry a crop or anything everywhere, or smack on my horses constantly. but when they do something dangerous like that, they are going to be put in place. im not going to let it grow into a habit and have myself or anyone else get hurt.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> I don't believe a smack does anything. It is the attitude that goes with it when you are angry. YOu suddenly become dominat and the horse fears that more then the little love tap.
> Someone walking around all the time with a crop to command obedience is just like a mother threatening her kids all the time with a spanking.
> It wears thin.


You can use all the body language you want, my horse at least ignorses you if you don't back it up. He usually respects my body language. If he doesn't, he gets a physical reminder that it's best to respong to my body BEFORE I back it up


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

New_image said:


> *It doesn't hurt the hore, but it reminds them whose on top.
> 
> *... ...I'm sorry this just came out wrong
> 
> Ok... done now, just spit coffee all over my monitor - glad I'm not the only one who occasionally forgets the S!


hahaha......i didn't see that one.......


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Ask, tell, demand. I'm all about using my body language and voice to get what I want from a horse, but you can't just keeping asking your horse in the politest possible tone to please stop running you over. Sorry, it's not going to work. I don't carry a whip around all the time. When I work with Gracie, my yearling, I keep it handy. Her first couple times in the cross-ties, I would give her my cue to step over [sticking my arm out to the side and wiggling my fingers] and if she didn't respond, I would use the whip to tap her over, hitting harder and harder until she moved. Now, I can get her to step over with my little cue.

My horses are definitely not afraid of me. I don't act out in anger, but rather, necessity. If my horse needs a beating, she'll get it, and then we move on. Neither of them ever get "flighty" after I give 'em a whack, they know it was a punishment.

Have you ever watched horses out in the pasture? When the three girls at my barn are eating their hay, my friend's horse will sometimes get on Ricci's nerves. Ricci will either bare her teeth, rear up at her, or turn her butt and kick out at her. My friend's horse backs off. Three seconds later, they continue eating just fine, the incident totally forgotten. There's nothing wrong with acting just like any other horse.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

I think you handled it just right. I would have done the same thing, it is very unsafe to have a 1000 pound animal that does not respect you and just runs over you when it feels like. Im in the midst of helping the trainer at the barn i work at, train some yearlings and they do the same thing, especially this one filly she will strike out at you. You bet your *** im gonna get angry and smack her, some jerks on the halter, make her back up. No i dont sit there and beat her. I make her realize what she has done is waay wrong, as soon as she strikes at me i make her work. Maybe some day she will realize, its not worth it.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

i really tried to give her the benefit of the doubt- i wanted to believe something scared her that bad. thats why i went and walked her in again right after she did that. but when she did it to me, i knew it was going to be the start of something bad if i didnt kick it in the butt now. shes too big to pull that stuff. shes 2 now, heres a pic of her as a *yearling*, shes strong and bulky. i dont want hear learning how to throw her weight around!


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

she's a beauty !!!!


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

thanks. unfortunately shes a little bullheaded like her mother! lol


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

I have to think this was posted just to rile people up. Ironic that it is posted under the "horse training" forum. Im not going to bite. I will say I do find it odd that so many have to use a stud chain over the nose on all their horses including mares. I dont even have to use them on my stallions. 

Kay


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## Tayz (Jan 24, 2009)

(Not picking any fights, just expressing my opinion)I honestly think that giving a horse a smack or a kick is not bad. If you do it all the time for no reason, then that is wrong. But if you do it because they try to kick or hurt you, I believe it is right. Horses are ten times bigger than you and if you don't have control of them, they can kill you.
If one tiny slap could save your life, wouldn't you want that?
I think your little foal was defiently testing her boundaries. I hope your boyfriend is ok and I'm sure you'll be able to teach her the ropes. 
Once when I was a beginner rider, a horse tried to pin me against the stall wall. The only reason the outcome wasn't worse was because I gave him a kick in the gut and he moved away from me and seemed to respect me more afterwards. Later I was told that he tries that with lots of people.
Some horses need a firm handling, others don't. But I believe it's alright to slap a horse to keep yourself safe. A horse is bigger than you after all.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

^ 

I am a firm believer in You bite me... I bite back. You kick me... I kick back. You shove into my space... You will be asked to move. You want to play colt games... I can get bigger & louder. And the list goes on. However if your nice, I'm very nice. I come bearing cookies, carrots, curry combs and love.

Its no different than a 1,000 pound herd member smacking them back into place, wait... yes it is. I cannot kick that hard  It IS however very much about _timing_. If you miss the two second rule, hitting, smacking, yelling, throwing something or kicking is out and you should use a training technique. If a horse deserves a smack its within two seconds of what he did I.E. nip .. smack. Then I'm done, one whap to the shoulder and I'm back to whatever I was doing. Prolonged hitting, jerking, yelling... they forget and then your just mean.

I'm surprised as well about these need for stud chains. Yes, I'll use them if a new horse requires extra something until I get to know them, however nothing thats here or that I've worked with will ever require the use of a chain.... or rope halter for that matter.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

> Originally Posted by *RiosDad*
> _I don't believe a smack does anything. It is the attitude that goes with it when you are angry. YOu suddenly become dominat and the horse fears that more then the little love tap.
> Someone walking around all the time with a crop to command obedience is just like a mother threatening her kids all the time with a spanking.
> It wears thin._


So how do YOU correct your horses?


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

weefoal said:


> I have to think this was posted just to rile people up. Ironic that it is posted under the "horse training" forum. Im not going to bite. I will say I do find it odd that so many have to use a stud chain over the nose on all their horses including mares. I dont even have to use them on my stallions.
> 
> Kay


what are you trying to say? it never happened? i made it up? and where was i supposed to post something like this, horse breeds? breeding? grooming? not really. its horse training obviously. :roll:

and im sorry no one is so perfect like you that you dont use a stud chain. god forbid.... i guess we all arent as great and shouldnt own horses.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

lacyloo said:


> So how do YOU correct your horses?


If a horse tries to bit me I lash out with anything I have in my hands, be it a brush, a hoof pick, my elbow, anything the minute he bites me.
My horses don't bite.
If a horse kicks me I charge into him lifting my knees hard and fast into his rib cage and yell at the same time.
My horses don't kick.
If a horse will not move over with a simple touch of my finger I will jab him quickly and harshly in the ribs with the corner of a brush or a hoof pick but it will hurt.
My horses move over with a simple touch.
If a horse paws in cross ties I hobble him. If he moves at all in cross ties he is hobbled. My horse stand perfectly still.
If I ground tie a horse and he walks off I grab the lead and jerk on it backing him back into the spot I originally left him. 
My horses ground tie well.
I tie my horses solid, if they try to pull I will let them and then try spooking them again so they learn not to pull.
I will fight a horse over an issue and I WILL NOT LOOSE.

That said I make very good horses, very quickly. Horses that follow me like a puppy around the field, horses that come running to the gate whenever my truck pulls in the yard.
I groom him daily, pick his feet and spend 1 hour each and every day with him, quiet time, quality time and he will behave.
One of my favorite things in the spring is to take a good book, my horse, a lawn chair, tie a rope to his one back leg, pick a nice patch of grass, set the chair on the end of the rope and read for an hour while the dog lays at my feet, a cat crawls on my lap and the horse does what horse's do. He eats.

I make good horses.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I just want to add that I do not buy family pets. I don't buy mares. Ideally I want a 4 year old stallion with very little handling. Something that hasn't been spoiled by people. I geld them the next day every time and within the week they are running trail, within the week alot of manners have been taught to him. He runs alone. I don't want other horses to distract or come between him and me and within the month he will be quit reliable.
I also ride them the first day if at all possible so I can sleep that night knowing what is ahead of me.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> where was i supposed to post something like this, horse breeds? breeding? grooming? not really. its horse training obviously. :roll:
> 
> .


I feel you belong in natural horse training. Asking a horse if you could ride him is just going too far.
I don't belong in natural horse training so I try staying away from there. It just upsets me to read all that garbage. 
It would be right up your ally


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I feel you belong in natural horse training. Asking a horse if you could ride him is just going too far.
> I don't belong in natural horse training so I try staying away from there. It just upsets me to read all that garbage.
> It would be right up your ally


i dont understand what makes it natural horse training? i dont ask, i tell. i have a feeling if i went to natural horse training and said i had hit her, shanked her, and walked her in and out of her barn/stall over and over until she did it right. i dont believe that the natural horse training people would agree with that. i dont use rope halters, if a horse invades my space i dont "jump around and flail" in hopes they will back up (ive seen people post that a lot and i think its rediculous) if they invade my space i get in their face and physically back them up with their halters telling them to "get the f* back there!". i dont know if the natural horse training people would like me.:wink: i refuse to sit in a horses stall or paddock and insist that that is "bonding" with the horse, i think its a waste of time. oh and i dont do that perelli and all that stuff. i think its.... well... im not going there....


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> i dont understand what makes it natural horse training? i dont ask, i tell. i have a feeling if i went to natural horse training and said i had hit her, shanked her, and walked her in and out of her barn/stall over and over until she did it right. i dont believe that the natural horse training people would agree with that. i dont use rope halters, if a horse invades my space i dont "jump around and flail" in hopes they will back up (ive seen people post that a lot and i think its rediculous) if they invade my space i get in their face and physically back them up with their halters telling them to "get the f* back there!". i dont know if the natural horse training people would like me.:wink: i refuse to sit in a horses stall or paddock and insist that that is "bonding" with the horse, i think its a waste of time. oh and i dont do that perelli and all that stuff. i think its.... well... im not going there....


I applogize to you. I have you mistaken for another poster. You are right and I don't hesitate to discipline a horse if he misbehaves.
Once again I was/am wrong and I am sorry.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> If a horse tries to bit me I lash out with anything I have in my hands, be it a brush, a hoof pick, my elbow, anything the minute he bites me.


How is this ANY different from using a whip? If my whip is in my hand, if my whip is what's handy, why not use it?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> How is this ANY different from using a whip? If my whip is in my hand, if my whip is what's handy, why not use it?


. 
I don't have a whip. I wouldn't carry one if I did. I am not good with one anyway. I have seen boarders try to use them effectively and am not impressed. I feel I can do more with my knees, my body or whatever is handy at the time.. If you are brushing and a horse tries to bite me do I look around for a whip?? or do I just use my brush or whatever else is in my hand?? I am quick and horses don't bite me a second time. I try to strike right in the mouth, not the face, not the body but right in the mouth.

I have a system, a system developed over a long time and it works


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

riccil0ve said:


> How is this ANY different from using a whip? If my whip is in my hand, if my whip is what's handy, why not use it?


 My thoughts exactly.Oh well, we shouldn't question the great riosdad horse master.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

lacyloo said:


> My thoughts exactly.Oh well, we shouldn't question the great riosdad horse master.


 
Most people don't walk around carrying a whip? Brushing, saddling, picking feet all require 2 hands so where am I keeping my whip?? Months will go by and if the horse doesn't act up once in all that time do you still maintain a whip?? just in case?
I refuse to walk around, work around with a whip in my hand. I use what is in my hand IF the need arises.

As for questioning the great riosdad?? Get another 50 years of experience and then come question me.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ I disagree. He may be abrasive and self assured - But I know that I have gotten some knowledge and interesting reading from his posts.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

a few comments: to start, i am not a great fan of natural horsemanship; a lot of it seems un-natural and un- necasary to me. i am a fan of good horsemanship though, so heres what i want to say; a very good horseman will walk away in anger, to calm down and to think out the process as to why the event occured. he will come back to the situation in calmness. to the o.p. your horse did not suddenly decide that she did not want to go into her stable, for no reason at all. i doubt that your handling of the situation has caused her to feel any diferently about it. a far more effective method would be to have encouraged her in with words and a feed bowl. it has worked for me everytime, which to be honest is a rare event, because mine dont baulk. i have now a mare who still occasionally will go into convulsions of fear, if you approach her carrying something the wrong way ; you can see her muscles go into spasm, that is how frightenened she is; why? because a heavy handed previous owner thought it was a good idea to lay into her. another thing i want to mention is that i have never seen a chain over a horses nose, in my life, until i saw it on this forum. and i have been around horses most of my life, almost as long a riosdad, if we count from when i first sat on a horse, at age 2 ( actually that would make it longer than riosdad!) . i know a lot of horse people, and i can tell you, here in the u.k. we are good enough at training and handling our horses, that we dont have to rely on such a heavyhanded and cruel piece of kit. and that includes stallions i worked with. i am actually appalled that any of you think it is acceptable to coerce and bully your horses in this way. and to be honest it is not for me painting a very pretty picture of what goes on in your yards. to post on here congradulating each other on hitting your horses in temper, and that is what it is, is pathetic. you arent good horesmen, you are bullies.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Why on earth would she want to reward bad behaviour with food? If she did that the filly is going to think "ah if I hurt him by being silly and disrespectful, she comes out with food for me." If this filly had tried that in a field with say her mum she'd have had a good hard kick for it. The OP did say she tried it again with filly and she acted up then she got smacked for it, the OP didn't just go out and batter her.
I'm from England too and I can tell you I would have acted in the same way. I've kicked horses who have kicked out at me, I bit my loan pony because he decied he didn't want to behave and bit my back while I was picking out his hooves and no I didn't hurt him, he was in a bad mood because he'd had to go into a smaller stable to make room for the owner's two big horses.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

People keep making the statement that we are "hitting our horses out of temper". No. There is no temper involved and hitting/punishing is not really the right word. It's an action/reaction type of thing. The horses are learning that for every action there is a consequence. It has nothing to do with temper or beating.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> My whip is in the barn. I work with my horses in the barn. It IS handy.
> 
> .


 
A whip in the barn is not good enough. At the exact instant a horse lashes out with his teeth to bite you is the time you have to strick back. Going and getting your whip it too late and giving him a smack where?? On the mouth where he deserves it or on another part of his body so he doesn't become head shy??

When he lashes out with his teeth to bite I meet him with the corner of the brush, a collision so to speak, he doesn't become head shy and he learns that biting me hurts so they stop almost immediately.

I get alot of slack from kids with little or no experience. Kids who in any barn are the bottom of the totem pole but on any internet forum they act like adults with a life time of experience. You seem to have a head on your shoulder but I certainly have rubbed you the wrong way.
Sorry but I will speak my mind. It will take you another 44 years to catch up to me.:lol::lol:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

We all know our horses or should at least. It was her boyfriend who handled the horse, not her?? Is her boyfriend a horse person or just a guy who has little knowledge?? Did she give him a problem?? Does the horse require a little extra handling when brought in other times??
Should she who knows the horse and the horse knows her handled the horse in the first place???


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> We all know our horses or should at least. It was her boyfriend who handled the horse, not her?? Is her boyfriend a horse person or just a guy who has little knowledge?? Did she give him a problem?? Does the horse require a little extra handling when brought in other times??
> Should she who knows the horse and the horse knows her handled the horse in the first place???


I think the OP's point is that ANYONE should be able to handle her horse. I don't think she started this thread to start an argument as someone stated, she started the thread to let off steam. Her horse misbehaved for her boyfriend so she took over the situation and the horse misbehaved for her, more then once. She worked through the problem. Is her boyfriend a horse person? Probably not, but he should still be able to handle her horse and I think that was her entire point, she wants a wellbehaved safe horse and that is what she's working towards.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

lillie said:


> . you arent good horesmen, you are bullies.


you have to be the most annoying member on here. you constantly post how much better you are than everyone else and we are so horrible and know nothing. and this post, you just proved how ignorant and disrespectful you are. i hope the mods keep and eye on you because this isnt the first time youve made posts that were nasty, rude, and involved name calling. grow up. 

oh, and im not going to REWARD my horse with food when shes running into a stall. AND im not going to "walk away" from the situation, because if you (obviously) have no clue, unless the correction is made (or began to be made) withing 2-3 seconds after the action, there is NO CONNECTION.



RiosDad said:


> We all know our horses or should at least. It was her boyfriend who handled the horse, not her?? Is her boyfriend a horse person or just a guy who has little knowledge?? Did she give him a problem?? Does the horse require a little extra handling when brought in other times??
> Should she who knows the horse and the horse knows her handled the horse in the first place???


i had to read that last line a few times. lol. to give some background, by boyfriend is in the process of being a horse person. he has been around our broodmare (his one and only horsie love) for about 6 years. but shes now 13 and a "been there done that" kind of mare. shes typically always very relaxed, and if she deoes get scared, shes not one to spook. she just raises her tail slightly and snorts, but keeps on doing what shes doing. she has no bad vices and has never tried to kick, bite, rear, etc. shes perfect. 

now he has had experience with both her foals. Belle (who is now 2- this is the horse that ran in on him) her first foal has always been a handful since day one. but he was there every day with her. 

Jin- foal number 2, is a yearling now. shes always been the most mellow horse you could ever be around. shes acts like an old been there done that horse lol. she was easy. he was there for her the whole time too.

he also deals a little with our racehorse we own together, Sumaturo. shes a witch. she bites, kicks, whacks you with her rump, tries to step on your feet. so there are select things he can do with her right now (walk her, bathe her, take her in and out of her stall, etc. but he cant harness her or anything- shes just too unruly for him to do that)

hes been to the barn at the track and helped out with the stable, been around everything from mares, colts, fillies, geldings, and studs. so hes still learning, but being exposed to everything. 



farmpony84 said:


> I think the OP's point is that ANYONE should be able to handle her horse. I don't think she started this thread to start an argument as someone stated, she started the thread to let off steam. Her horse misbehaved for her boyfriend so she took over the situation and the horse misbehaved for her, more then once. She worked through the problem. Is her boyfriend a horse person? Probably not, but he should still be able to handle her horse and I think that was her entire point, she wants a wellbehaved safe horse and that is what she's working towards.


exactly. this is EXACTLY right lol.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

rios dad has picked up on exactly what i was thinking. the op has said that her boyfriend has not got the experience of horses; my thought exactly; you see if a horse normally goes into the stable and then suddenly doesnt, i am going to think that something spooked my horse, i am therefore going to encourage him in and get his confidence back, so he sees there is nothing scary in there- it's the same old stable. to then beat him up- i am saying figuratively- is only going to emphasise to the horse that he was right to think something bad was going to happen. by encouraging or bribing him in, you are just re-affirming that the stable is a nice place to be. no-one needs to react in this way- it is thier choice to react that way. i am saying that there is a more effective way. and to whoever posted that they come from england and etc. well so what do you mean- there are different methods in the uk; it doesnt make me like it any better. were you replying to my comment about chains, and got mixed up- because i stand by that chains arent commonly used across noses in the uk unless you are handling a stallion, maybe,


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

let me assure you almagon N, i have not yet got my hand slapped my a moderator. maybe i will who knows? i have a right to say if i think there is a better way, and i have seen some very nice posts from people on this forum, but if you have a strop with your horse and post about it, then as someone so rightly said in one of the earlier posts on this thread, people are going to state the opinion that that is cruel or unnecasary. now i think i was pretty tactful because i didnt reply to this until there were quite a few people justifying why it is ok to be heavyhanded. i have just said there is another way to do it. and by the way that is a load of bull about the 2-3 seconds for the connection between behavior and punishment; it doesnt apply, because with my way you arent going to punish you are going to re-assure. because when you walk away until you calm down, you are then presented with the same problem ie. baulking, you just then have the calmness and patience to handle it in a different way. maybe its as my husband used to say; if you cant stand the heat, you should stay out of the kitchen


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

Lillie,
I have had to read several of your post to get the feeling of your thoughts and I have to say that I really like what I am hearing.

YES there are other ways to solve these problems and they have been out there for a very long time.

I will draw attention to Kevinshorses sig line again for the people that don't seem to want to get the method.

Training is preemptive and not reactive.
It is READ and FEEL and it is not anger and retribution.
It is relationship, cooperation, and EFFECTIVE communication.
It is not retaliation and domination.
It is caring and helping and showing, explaining,and guiding.

It is not slapping,smacking,kicking,and popping.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

When the preemptive doesn't work - then reactive is what must ensure. Maybe YOUR training doesn't involve anything physical - that doesn't mean that if you incorporate it, you're not training. Watch a horse herd sometime - and no, I don't buy this absolute garbage that horses see us as "predators" and that's why it's ok for them to get their teeth kicked in on a daily basis by a herdmate but not ok for us to smack them on the bum for trying to kick us out of belligerence.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

lillie said:


> you arent good horesmen, you are bullies.


that, is NOT tactful. you may want to look up the meaning of the word. 

as far as my boyfriend not being horse savvy, that may be. and if you read my post i GAVE the horse the benefit of the doubt thinking something spooked her. but when i walked her in myself and she tried to pull that crap again, that was the end of it. 

months ago (during the summer) she had started this at the track. where there is nothing to spook her. there i battled with her a few weeks to get her to behave again. but got it back. she apparently needed a reminder.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Training is preemptive and not reactive.
> It is READ and FEEL and it is not anger and retribution.
> It is relationship, cooperation, and EFFECTIVE communication.
> It is not retaliation and domination.
> It is caring and helping and showing, explaining,and guiding.


yes well next time she runs in her stall ill be sure to stand there and explain to her why its unsafe for her to do so


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> that, is NOT tactful. you may want to look up the meaning of the word.
> 
> as far as my boyfriend not being horse savvy, that may be. and if you read my post i GAVE the horse the benefit of the doubt thinking something spooked her. but when i walked her in myself and she tried to pull that crap again, that was the end of it.
> 
> months ago (during the summer) she had started this at the track. where there is nothing to spook her. there i battled with her a few weeks to get her to behave again. but got it back. she apparently needed a reminder.


There is nothing to spook her that YOU can see as a human.
Horses see and hear many things that we don't.
Part of being a good trainer is being aware of what THEY are seeing,smelling,and hearing.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> yes well next time she runs in her stall ill be sure to stand there and explain to her why its unsafe for her to do so



Now you are being as unreasonable with me as you were with your horse.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Marecare said:


> There is nothing to spook her that YOU can see as a human.
> Horses see and hear many things that we don't.
> Part of being a good trainer is being aware of what THEY are seeing,smelling,and hearing.


And what makes you think that she wasn't aware???? She was there, you weren't...


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Marecare said:


> Now you are being as unreasonable with me as you were with your horse.


I think this forum can do without this sort of baiting...


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Not going to get into the main debate - Just want to say - I have NEVER met a horse who even remotely would need a stud chain. IMO They are an unecessary, cruel piece of equipment.


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## WarPony (Oct 30, 2009)

I agree with wild_spot. Especially a baby. What the heck was your BOYFRIEND, who is not horse savvy, doing with such a young horse in the first place? That's your fault.

I would never use such harsh treatment on a young horse. Testing you? maybe. She's young, and a mare, they aren't machines. That doesn't mean you shank her. 

Disagree with me and blame the horse, I don't like what I heard.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

OP didn't use a stud chain on her if that's what you're referring to her. It has already by said the filly was disiplined after she acted up with the OP so it wasn't just the fact the BF was leading her.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

If you would like to post a response to this thread, you need to refrain from personal attacks and insults. People on this forum are entitled to their opinions. Lashing out at a person because their beliefs are different from ones own opinions is not acceptable.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Just a thought on anyone saying hitting is abusive or the famous "you arent good horesmen, you are bullies" 
In the summer months I carry a crop when I ride -the soul purpose being- to smack horses in the head with it for killing deer flys. The flyswatter effect. You have to give a pretty good thwap to kill the suckers, then I reach up and flick them off. Just remembering back to this summer I hit the deerflys (that generally land between there ears) about as hard with a crop as I would hit a horse with my bare hand for being naughty (_If_ I chose the quick slap on the wrists method to correct a bad behavior)
I guess my point being that they aren't made of glass. None of my horses are afraid of me, none are afraid of crops or whips, none are headshy. And we work with quite number of horses! My personal riding horses know I carry the crop for this reason and when theres a deer fly annoying them they get ****y until I say "Quit twitching I'll get it" they pause and wait - Smack - then happily continue.

Of course... this has its draw backs. My horses response to being smacked would be "Did yah get it? Is it dead?" 

Honestly though, what do _your_ horses do if you walk up and smack them a good one? Because every horse here I think would turn and look at me like "....you wanted somthing?" Its the shouting, the anger, the body language, combined with the hitting and the knowing they're in trouble. Its not that even a swift kick to the chest would hurt a horse. Haven't you noticed them kicking the snot out of eachother in the field? 

I just think some of you are a bit overly concerned like everyone whos responded has tied the horse up, hit with 2x4 twenty three times in the head and such.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

_I will agree that people that work with abused,mishandled,and fearful horses on a DAILY basis might be a little more sensitive to the topic._

I usually get the horse AFTER some smart person thought that a little more was better than a little less.

This is not something that is just a small problem that comes along every now and then.
I assure you that I am not reacting to someone swatting deer flies.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Marecare said:


> _I will agree that people that work with abused,mishandled,and fearful horses on a DAILY basis might be a little more sensitive to the topic._


at this point is where i have to disagree a little... no actually, A LOT. 

let me enlighten you a little. my mare, Sumaturo. My uncle bought her when she was 3, i was her groom after that for 4 years. the people who had her before us beat the snot out of her. i dont know if it was daily, i dont know how often, but they did. and im sure they gave her a heavy hand daily. we couldnt walk by her in the crossties too quickly or she would flip herself over, you couldnt walk by her stall without her throwing herself over, you couldnt make ANY fast movements or any movements too high over your head or she would flip out. you couldnt raise your voice around her, or catch her in her stall. if you took her in her stall she would run away from you before you could take her halter off, and as soon as she was out of your hands, that was it, you werent touching her anymore.

after 4yrs of working with her shes a different horse. my uncle was going to sell her a few months back, but i couldnt stomach losing her, so i bought her. the only thing she does now is sometimes toss her head if you go by her stall too fast (like running), or sometimes throw her head back a little if you go too fast at her face putting her halter on. 

do i hit her? yep. i know what shes been through and i know what shes learned from being with me. but if she kicks at me or bites at me (which she does when shes porky and feeling really good) you best bet ill give her a smack. i know when she knows better. knowing her history doesnt mean im going to let her get away with anything that i wouldnt let my other horses get away with.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

WarPony said:


> I agree with wild_spot. Especially a baby. What the heck was your BOYFRIEND, who is not horse savvy, doing with such a young horse in the first place? That's your fault.
> 
> I would never use such harsh treatment on a young horse. Testing you? maybe. She's young, and a mare, they aren't machines. That doesn't mean you shank her.
> 
> Disagree with me and blame the horse, I don't like what I heard.


age means nothing. i expect my broke young horses, to respect and act the same as my old horses. i dont expect them to be bombproof, but i expect exceptional ground manners. this filly is a broke and previously in training racehorse. therefore she drives as my older horses. 

and as for my boyfriend leading her... um... where do you expect people to start learning ANYTHING about horses? also he has been with me through the birth and raising of 2 foals (this filly being one of them) and currently we are expecting our 3rd foal in april. he has been with this filly since the moment she was born (we are present for all births) so its not like he doesnt know her and she doesnt know him. he may not be horse savvy, and when i say this you have to understand what i mean- he cant ride a horse (properly that is, he has ridden my broodmare a couple times), he cant harness a horse to drive or drive one, he cant lunge one or anything like that. but he CAN take care of one. he has been taking care of my broodmare for 5 years without a problem. so just because he is not as horse savvy as i, doesnt mean i shouldnt let him touch any horse.... how do you ever expect a person to learn ANYTHING???


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> ^ I disagree. He may be abrasive and self assured - But I know that I have gotten some knowledge and interesting reading from his posts.


Ditto here and the entertainment that comes from the ensuing arguments is priceless.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

Not that I carry a whip on a regular basis.. I'm not opposed to using one for a variety of reasons. 

I disagree that whips shouldn't be used as a form of punishment. If a horse is trying to kick me or run me over and I happen to have a whip then that horse is going to get a good smack with it. 

Anabel said that she doesn't use a whip because she wishes to use it as a aid and she believes that if you use it for punishment you will essentially confuse a horse and that she uses body language.

My answer to this is obviously a progressive approach. Ask, tell and then demand. Your horse should no the difference in body language, voice, and whip. There is a difference in "you stupid pony.." (as you discover a hole in his new blanket) and "YOU STUPID PONY" (as he bucks you off).. petting and smacking... walking to his butt to pick out his back foot and walking to his butt to push it over. A horse quickly learns the difference between it being an extension of your arm (weather it be asking the horse to move over lightly or more forcefully) and an extension of your leg asking your horse to move more forward.

I'm not condoning beating a horse.. as any form of force becomes abuse when you time it wrong. However, I'm with the OP even if I didn't really beat the crap out of the horse I would probably still use that phrasing.

Some of you guys are being mean! So what if she asked her boyfriend to lead her younger horse.. She expected the horse to behave as usual. Not her fault! Thats life with horses and everyone should know there is always a risk even with the best of horses. )


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

AlmagroN said:


> at this point is where i have to disagree a little... no actually, A LOT.
> 
> let me enlighten you a little. my mare, Sumaturo. My uncle bought her when she was 3, i was her groom after that for 4 years. the people who had her before us beat the snot out of her. i dont know if it was daily, i dont know how often, but they did. and im sure they gave her a heavy hand daily. we couldnt walk by her in the crossties too quickly or she would flip herself over, you couldnt walk by her stall without her throwing herself over, you couldnt make ANY fast movements or any movements too high over your head or she would flip out. you couldnt raise your voice around her, or catch her in her stall. if you took her in her stall she would run away from you before you could take her halter off, and as soon as she was out of your hands, that was it, you werent touching her anymore.
> 
> ...



You have a horse that has documented history of abuse and you solve problems by smacking the horse to teach it a lesson.

I rest my case!


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## AppyLover615 (Sep 16, 2009)

> Scared the crap outta me. little turkey.



my old riding instructor used to go "you know what they do to turkeys on thanksgiving..." to ill-behaved horses.:lol:

too bad, that thanksgiving is now a year away so you can't use that threat on your mare till close to thanksgiving next year AlmagroN :mrgreen:

~AL615


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Training is preemptive and not reactive.
> It is READ and FEEL and it is not anger and retribution.
> It is relationship, cooperation, and EFFECTIVE communication.
> It is not retaliation and domination.
> ...


I couldn't have said it better. If you are paying attention to your horse you can stop a lot of behavior before it starts. Sometomes it doesn't work but you are better off not doing anything than doing something in anger. I have no problem being as rough with a horse as needed as long as it is getting me closer to my goal. I was also a little troubled by the use of stud chains. I have very very rarely used a stud chain on any horse and I have never used one on one of my stallions. If I had to use a chain to control my stallions he would be a gelding. If you need to use a chain to control your horse on a regular basis then you need to do more training or have a horseman help you learn to control your horse.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

Marecare said:


> You have a horse that has documented history of abuse and you solve problems by smacking the horse to teach it a lesson.
> 
> I rest my case!


I'm sure that's not the only method she used to retrain her horse. OBVIOUSLY the horse and owner are much happier now that the horse's spazzy behavior is corrected (for the most part! lol)

I rest my case.. P


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

lillie said:


> a few comments: to start, i am not a great fan of natural horsemanship; a lot of it seems un-natural and un- necasary to me. i am a fan of good horsemanship though, so heres what i want to say; a very good horseman will walk away in anger, to calm down and to think out the process as to why the event occured. he will come back to the situation in calmness.


I'm late to this thread but thanks Lillie, I just love being called a bully. :lol:
This is a ridiculous statement. If you "leave the situation" and then come back, the horse has already FORGOTTEN whatever it was that riled the person up.
To reward a horse by BRIBING it in calmly with food is foolish as well. It teaches them that they can have their way. If they feel like playing up they're going to get a treat for it? What utter nonsense.
I don't believe in using a whip on horses too, but I have NO problem putting my horses in place if they decide to try it on. Just like many people have said, horses in the wild get a kick/bite from the alpha horse, and considering I'm the alpha in this herd, I will give a firm smack that works as a "bite" if my horses try anything. My horses are both incredibly respectful, so I don't have to "bite" my horses much... but if they feel like they can turn nasty on me (ie trying to barge through me, kick out, bite, shove, etc) I will tell them that this is unacceptable behaviour.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

to all of you who are missing the entire point; all i am saying is that there is another way to solve the problem before it becomes an issue. ok, maybe you have to use your braincells a little bit before reacting, but it's there. to those of you who get where i am coming from in my original statements on this thread, thank you for taking the time to add your thoughts on the subject, and some of you have said it much better than me.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Its funny, as I read these posts, I think about all of the different situtaitons that I run into in every day life with horses. The more that I learn, the more I believe that the most common form of abuse is just plain ignorance. I think that a lot of people posting on this thread are picturing different things, some through their eyes, some through the horses eyes, some through a false set of eyes in their own idealistic world.

I have met some horses that will shy away if you look at them wrong, and some that will run you over despite anything that you could possibly physically do. I will admit that I think that a person can do whatever is necessary to protect their personal space. However, when offering corrections to behavior that is threatening people, it is also necessary to look at the behavior through the horses mind instead of the persons. You must understand that everything that a horse does is not through holding a personal grudge, or just being mean, they don't work by those methods, a horse is working through social skills to solidify their place in the herd, the most important thing for them is safety.

I have learned a lot from a horse that I recently brought in for training. Nothing that I learned has changed the way that I handle the horse, but he has taught me how to translate everything to his owners, to understand the huge communicational gap going on between them. He is a pretty little paint, young, green, came through the auction and traded off from owner to owner, more than likely because he was just pretty. There is no questioning that he had some mistreatment in his past, and his defensive patterns came out in just about everything imaginable. He was aggressive towards people, yet terrified if they came to close, he would stick his feet, and then bolt or buck when made to move. All of this behavior would make a person angry in their mind, he did numerous things that made him get the label of "bad horse" or "useless" in his old barn. And then his owners couldn't figure out why he kept bucking them off even though "they loved him". He was labeled as stubborn, unwilling, unpredictable........ Many things that would typically cause a person to use unnecessary force.
He is coming along beautifully along with his owners, and I can honestly say that I have never had to strike this horse, I also don't baby him or love him to death either, I simply communicate in a way he understands.
On the other end of the scale, I know several horses that are terrified in their own skin, horrified by the outside world, and have no fear of people. Having a 1000 lb animal land in your lap because the wind blows is not fun, and my first priority here is to defend my own space. However, it is not just my responsibility to teach the horse how not to squish the human, it is also my job to teach that horse how to find safety in its world. It is my job to find its weaknesses, be they physical or mental, or more commonly both, and give them the confidence and security that they need along with the basic respect of human space. These horses are usually labeled as dominant in the pasture, but they are not leaders, they use their aggression to defend their own insecurities, again, either physical or mental. Like I said, in this case I have no problem doing whatever I need to do to keep that horse off of me, but it is also my responsibility to make that horse feel safe to eliminate the need for extreme behavior. I don't mean safe by giving them a solid stall and good fence lines and thick bedding, I mean safe by figuring out what it is that is causing them to feel compromised.

The first thing that I tell everyone is "ask why". Why did the 2 yr old run him over? Lack of respect? Well yeah, but why? Had he earned that respect from her by proving leadership abilities? Testing leadership? Pretty extreme, and like others said, there have been plenty of signs if it has gotten to that point.

So many times, we want the horse to live by our rules. I can't tell you how many people I've had say "well, its a horse, shouldn't it know how to walk, trot, and canter?" The truth is, we have brought them into our lives, we need to teach them how to live here. To the OP, if I had a horse do that to me, I would establish my space, if I had to hit the horse to get it off of me, I would, but I would also not just label it as a lesson to be learned by the horse. I would see it as a hole in training that I missed, my fault. I would address that hole not just to get obedience from the horse, but to give the horse the confidence that it needs to feel safe, to eliminate the need for the horse to act that strongly in a defensive behavior. I expect nothing but the best behavior from my horses, but I also know that to expect the best from them, I have to be the one to offer them the best leadership that I can.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Well said FlitterBug, more people should understand this. I'm sure many do but I like the way you verbalized it.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

Marecare said:


> You have a horse that has documented history of abuse and you solve problems by smacking the horse to teach it a lesson.
> 
> I rest my case!


youre not understanding. there is a LARGE difference between smacking a horse and beating it. you didnt read my post very well. she was a beaten and abused horse- DAILY. since i have worked with her her behavior has turned around almost 100%, and i can smack her without ANY regression because she KNOWS that its a correction and not a beating. we deal with it and move on. she doesnt become a freaked out spazz on me again because i smacked her. 



AppyLover615 said:


> my old riding instructor used to go "you know what they do to turkeys on thanksgiving..." to ill-behaved horses.:lol:
> 
> too bad, that thanksgiving is now a year away so you can't use that threat on your mare till close to thanksgiving next year AlmagroN :mrgreen:
> 
> ~AL615


haha that would be quite the big ol turkey!.... thats ok thought, christams is coming up.... and you know what they do to ill-behaved reindeer??? lol



FlitterBug said:


> some through a false set of eyes in their own idealistic world.


heyyyy i like my false set of eyes!!!




FlitterBug said:


> I The first thing that I tell everyone is "ask why". Why did the 2 yr old run him over? Lack of respect? Well yeah, but why? Had he earned that respect from her by proving leadership abilities? Testing leadership? Pretty extreme, and like others said, there have been plenty of signs if it has gotten to that point.


 i disagree with you here. i wouldnt say a horse running in a stall is a extreme point of of testing someones leadership. it has happened to me many times over the years with many horses. they will be fine for a long time, then decide to start running in their stalls, then be fine again. we have also just had horses that were that way when they came to us and we could never break it because they were just too bad, and it was too dangerous to get in their way. we had one that we had to turn loose about 4feet infront of his stall and let him go. sparks would fly on the concrete behind him and off he would go as fast as possible. im not going to try to break that horse from it, sorry. no way no how am i putting myself infront of that. but it wasnt that he didnt have any respect for me, it was what was programmed in his head. 

as for my filly. i know she can test my boyfriend, and when she does, he asserts himself firmly. she has her quirks here and there with him, but she has them with a lot of people. shes just where she wants to test more ground and see how far she can push us. thats normal for a young one. 



FlitterBug said:


> To the OP, if I had a horse do that to me, I would establish my space, if I had to hit the horse to get it off of me, I would, but I would also not just label it as a lesson to be learned by the horse.


 i didnt just label it a lesson learned by her.



ohmyitschelle said:


> This is a ridiculous statement. If you "leave the situation" and then come back, the horse has already FORGOTTEN whatever it was that riled the person up.


i just wanted to address this one because i forgot to in posting a little while ago. when i stated that there is a 2-3 second reaction time (of which i found i was actually being too generous, its 1-2 seconds) there i was told that it was rediculous. i just wanted to post some quotes from horse training

*"I have written about the importance to very quickly "reward" desired performance or "punish" undesired performance. Since this has to happen within a second or two, mental training or preparation can give you a real edge."*

these next couple quotes are from clicker training horses where timing is DEFINATELY necessity

*" **horses** are naturally curious, and when he touches it, say "Target!" click and reward. Make sure you speak and click as soon as he touches it. That is the behavior you want him to learn as being correct."*

*"like a training whistle or click of your tongue). The clicker simply makes it easier to give praise at the exact instant the horse does something correct. Clicking is even faster than saying, "Yes!" to reward the behavior and therefore, more accurate. "*


this one is a little stricter than others in time, but the same point

*"Which is why you must watch the horse closely, very closely, to remain perceptive to any negative body language whatsoever and react instantly to it. Three seconds or even two seconds reaction/correction is too late. I correct for any negative body language. Nano-second instantly."*

*"Your positive or negative reaction has to come immediately. The attention span - especially with younger horses - is very short. You are looking at a maximum of 2 seconds."*

*" Punishment will be used only when a horse displays dangerous behavior. Punish sharply and briefly. Punish within 2 seconds after the bad behavior and then forget it."*


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Flitterbug I couldn't agree more. As I've said in other topics - nearly every reaction a horse does is somehow related to what a human is doing. Whether its on the ground or under saddle. Always ask why is a good way to go. Or what did I do this time to case this reaction? However if I was being trampled on the way into a stall I'd be yelling, swatting her chest and backing her right up. I think in this particular case it was just one of those days for the filly and a not-so-smart guy on the other end of her lead (In her eyes) but the point is she isn't allowed to do THAT. Of couse, this is what I gathered threw a post. For all I know a dog could have came up and bit her in the butt to cause this reaction. Which is while I do say everyone is a bit over reactive to the fact that a horse was hit - I will be the first to agree every situation calls for something different.


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted by *Marecare*
> _Training is preemptive and not reactive.
> It is READ and FEEL and it is not anger and retribution.
> It is relationship, cooperation, and EFFECTIVE communication.
> ...


The voice of reason! Kevinshorses and Flitter also have some great posts. I would add to the above CONSISTENCY. Most people that I have helped with horse problems is because they are not consistent. One day the horse is reprimanded the next the behavior is ignored. Its like raising children. You have to be CONSISTENT. If its wrong today its wrong tomorrow. This is how so many bad habits start in a horse. 

Kay


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

flitterbug; that was an excellent post.... op ;bulling definition; to force ones way aggresively or by intimidation... your 2 second ruling might work ridden or in other circumstances, it doesnt, imo, work in this situation because you have a mare who something has happened that has frightened her, then you take her in, you show her you mean business, all you have actually done is give her another reason to be fearful of going in her box. and especially if she has a past- she needs understanding and encouragement, not more punishment. all she equates is that you have proved it is sometimes unpleasant consequences to go in the box; unless you take the time to understand her reasoning you are just going to get caught in the same behavior again and again. why dont you try a different way for six monthes and see what happens.


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## AppyLover615 (Sep 16, 2009)

most horses in a herd work buy bullying and intimidating other horses in a herd to gain their place in the pecking order. I don't advocate abuse of an animal, but I don't think the OP meant she literally beat the horse. More that if the horse was going to try to dominate her she had to dominate the horse back to prove she was the leader, since dangerous behavior is definitely unacceptable in an animal, especially one 10x's bigger than you. I think most people reading this thread understood that, I just wanted to clarify for anyone who didn't. Or at least this is what I gathered from the OP's responses. 

~AL615


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

AlmagroN, I am not old by any means, I'm actually 25, but I've managed to make a business out of helping problem and rescue horses. Yes, rushing through a stall door is a serious behavioral issue and yes, it is something that can be fixed. Without seeing the exact horse, it is hard to see what it is from. It could be from lack of respect, it could be a clostrophobic issue, it could be fear related, past experience related, learned behavior, any number of things. Whatever the cause, it is a problem and it is still something to be fixed for the safety of the person as well as the safety and sanity of the horse. Its not something to avoid by getting out of the way or something that you can just teach them not to do without understanding where the problem is coming from. To fix what you see, you have to fix the problem at its source. I have had plenty of horses come into my care with a gate rushing issue, but I've never had a horse leave with one. 

I refuse to accept the answer "thats just this horse, thats how this horse is". I still want to know why. Horses constantly test their leaders, they have to in order to ensure their own safety. They also give constant little tests. For example, I have a position in a barn where I've been working on teaching people as well as horses, with this position, I get a stall. I rarely use it, but occasionally send one of my horses over there. The most recent was my 4 yr old QH. The staff knew that she was there as a bit of a test, and even 2 months later, they thought she was wonderful and sweet. The horse that I saw had become pushy, invasive, dull to cues, and began challenging what was asked of her. She became somewhat of a chore to lead because she would drag behind and she began moving around for grooming. None of these behaviors were directly dangerous, or even very noticeable for most people, but they were working in that direction. When I brought her home, the horse that had always been willing and relaxed no matter where she went was suddenly insecure and anxious. My lead horse, who had been with the 4 yr old for years, was on her immediately. It only took a couple of days for him and I to bring her back around, but that is just an example of how small behaviors can escalate without proper handling, how the small things that we see as annoying but tolerable can suddenly turn into dangerous. If we correct those behaviors when they are minor, then the corrections can be light and simple, more like a reminder that the horse doesn't mind at all and actually appreciates the guidance. If they escalate, then the horse has every right to thoroughly test the leadership abilities of the person that is handling them. Not only because of "bad behavior" but because the horse, as a herd animal, has lost a sense of security that comes with having a good leader. 

I learned a long time ago that just because I couldn't fix something didn't mean that it couldn't be fixed. It just meant I had to swallow my pride and find someone who could teach me how to fix it.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Also, to add, I have no problem increasing force with horses. I watch my lead horse discipline other horses all the time. With some of the horses that come into my barn, he has his work cut out for him. However, he is not a bully or an intimidator, he is a leader. He doesn't use unnecessary force or push horses around without reason. An unruly horse will get worked by him, but a horse with manners is quickly accepted. He doesn't let his herd members get away with little things, so he never has to increase the pressure he uses, but when I bring in a new horse that has been hurting people and is insecure enough to be bullying other horses, I can be pretty sure that horse will come in with some marks from him.

Just like with people, you don't get others to listen to you willingly by physically threatening, you get them to listen by showing them that you are confident, stable, and consistent.

Yes, horses will use extreme physical force, as will I if that is what is needed to protect myself, but if I'm doing my job, then the level of force will go down and eventually be completely gone.

Physical contact is one way that horses communicate, I personally don't see this as a thread saying "hitting is wrong", but rather as an opportunity to understand where behavior is coming from and how to correct it at its source.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> Its not something to avoid by getting out of the way or something that you can just teach them not to do without understanding where the problem is coming from. To fix what you see, you have to fix the problem at its source. I have had plenty of horses come into my care with a gate rushing issue, but I've never had a horse leave with one. I refuse to accept the answer "thats just this horse, thats how this horse is". I still want to know why


 and thats great for you. but im not going to be the bullhead that stands infront of a horse whos running into his stall so bad that hes throwing sparks. sorry. im not getting hurt over dumb sh*t. you want to be that dummy, go ahead. but youre only going to get trampled. and to know why, youre never going to know. take a horse that has had multiple owners (usually 2 or 3) per year and is 9yrs old. you dont know why. you dont know when it started. 



lillie said:


> op ;bulling definition; to force ones way aggresively or by intimidation... your 2 second ruling might work ridden or in other circumstances, it doesnt, imo, work in this situation


first off i was telling you to look up the definition of tactful, because thats what you said you were being... but you werent. 

secondly, its not MY 2 second ruling. this is something that is PROVEN. not only is it proven in horses, but in dogs as well. sorry, even with mulitple quotes right there from sources, you are too blind to see you are not right.




lillie said:


> because you have a mare who something has happened that has frightened her, then you take her in, you show her you mean business, all you have actually done is give her another reason to be fearful of going in her box.


first off, how do YOU know something scared her? you werent there! secondly, if what i did was so wrong, why do i not have a problem with her anymore? since that day she has been walking into her stall like an angel once again, and we have had no more problems. tell me where i was so flawed? :-|


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

people are trying to give advice and expertise,and ,well, you just demonstate again and again how blinkered you are; you are just way too defensive; why dont you either ignore it if you dont like what people say,or even try a different approach- what is there to lose?? when a lot of fine people on here are giving different interpretations of how they would think about the situation? why do i mention something scaring or spooking her? you have said yourself, she has a history, you have said what happened originally when your boyfriend led her in, even if something didnt scare her then, ( and i'm willing to bet something did) she would almost definately be spooked by the ensueing drama of the ripped finger. horse never forget. why do you take every person who has a different approach than you as a threat- why cant you simply be a bit more openminded and accept that you dont know everything- no-one does. it really does not have to be a battle with a horse, ok , you will get the occasional disagreement, but it can often be avioded by thinking ahead, and looking back. and one more thing, i said "your" 2 second ruling-as a figure of speech - i know you read it in a book. but it doesnt all come out of a book, sometimes it is just a "feel" for a horse- you need to know when it is appropriate for the situation, and as you know, i dont go much for the punishment thing, so the 2 second rule isnt needed. what does work is perserverance and consistancy --if you show the horse that the stable is a good place to be, you dont get the need for punishment or showing who's boss- the horse is intelligent enough to know that if you ask something of it, it is safe trusting your judgement. yes, it will take some time to convince her of that fact, and you have to be consistant, and not fall back on "showing her who's boss", etc. which brings me to your final comment- ok, so you have, in your way, sorted it for now, but it will definately happen again


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Flitterbug, I like your posts! 

That said, here's my take on it. IMHO, this is a horse who understood what was going to happen (go into the stall). She wasn't afraid. She bolted into the stall she wanted to be in - not wheeled and bolted out of the barn. I've seen this happen with horses who bolt into a stall because they knew feed would be in it. They didn't think about which stall is "theirs", but become so focused on what's IN the stall and eating that they blow off their handlers and go into the first stall available to them. I've also seen horses who had been very comfy in one stall, were moved to another stall, that was either smaller or beside a horse they were not comfy being by, so they throw a fit to go into the stall they prefer to be in instead of the one they knew they were being led into. I've also seen this type of behavior in horses who have been allowed to run in their stalls without being led…where the stall doors are opened and the horses were allowed to run in once the barn doors are opened. The only thing they focus on is an open stall door. I don't know if any of these fit this situation…I don't know the OP's routine. But my point is there are many reasons as to WHY the horse reacted as it did other than fear or outright intimidation of the handler, but the behavior still has to be dealt with AT THE TIME IT OCCURS with the why being sorted out later. Bottom line is that this behavior was dangerous and was dealt with.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

lillie said:


> people are trying to give advice and expertise,and ,well, you just demonstate again and again how blinkered you are; you are just way too defensive; why dont you either ignore it if you dont like what people say,or even try a different approach- what is there to lose??


 so because i dont agree with YOUR advice im blinkered? ok.....



lillie said:


> she would almost definately be spooked by the ensueing drama of the ripped finger.


 yes, the ensueing drama... right... he walked away and left her while i took care of her so he could take care of his hand. youre right, such drama. 



lillie said:


> horse never forget. why do you take every person who has a different approach than you as a threat


 never did....



lillie said:


> why cant you simply be a bit more openminded and accept that you dont know everything- no-one does.


 here i say... pot, meet kettle!!!!



lillie said:


> it really does not have to be a battle with a horse, ok , you will get the occasional disagreement, but it can often be avioded by thinking ahead, and looking back. and one more thing, i said "your" 2 second ruling-as a figure of speech - i know you read it in a book.


 first off, i didnt just "read it in a book". secondly not every situation can be avoided. yes some can, but not ALL.



lillie said:


> you need to know when it is appropriate for the situation, and as you know, i dont go much for the punishment thing, so the 2 second rule isnt needed.


 really? so you know more than the science conducted to determine the reaction time needed? wow. you must know it all. and sorry but it doesnt all apply to punishment. in a reward situation it applies as well. the reward has to be DIRECT to the action. if you wait you reward ANY other action happened after the preferred one, therefore NOT rewarding the action you wanted. you also have to be on time when shaping behaviors. having been a dog trainer for a while, i know about this, as it applies to horses as well as dogs.



lillie said:


> what does work is perserverance and consistancy --if you show the horse that the stable is a good place to be, you dont get the need for punishment or showing who's boss


 i never showed her the stable wasnt a good place to be. so obviously it wasnt that that caused this.



lillie said:


> but it will definately happen again


 i guess you just know it all


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Lillie, you may have some good points, but you're the one MAKING the OP "narrow minded" with your complete lack of anything resembling tact. You basically waltzed onto this thread, bashed the entire lot of us because you think differently, and now you're throwing a snit fit because people are narrow minded to your ideas. People shut down when they're insulted, and getting a technically valid point across becomes a borderline impossibility because people don't feel like they should bother listening to anything that comes from someone already ignorant enough to bash everyone elses opinions and methods.

Flitterbug is saying much the same things, but in such a proactive and helpful way, people WANT to listen to her even if they might not agree with her.

Nobody knows everything and nobody should act like they do.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Lillie, you may have some good points, but you're the one MAKING the OP "narrow minded" with your complete lack of anything resembling tact. You basically waltzed onto this thread, bashed the entire lot of us because you think differently, and now you're throwing a snit fit because people are narrow minded to your ideas. People shut down when they're insulted, and getting a technically valid point across becomes a borderline impossibility because people don't feel like they should bother listening to anything that comes from someone already ignorant enough to bash everyone elses opinions and methods.
> 
> Flitterbug is saying much the same things, but in such a proactive and helpful way, people WANT to listen to her even if they might not agree with her.
> 
> Nobody knows everything and nobody should act like they do.


thank you for understanding this! if i had said this it would have been as effective, but you said everything i wanted to say.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I believe this thread has no where further to go.


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