# Stooping, or fair? (rant...)



## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Okay, so I'm not convinced that I have aptly titled this thread, nor that I have placed it entirely in the right forum. 

I have recently posted in a thread in an off-topic issue regarding a boarder who stiffed us on our contractually required "30 Day Notice". This (if interested, it is in the thread about $ for stall cleaning in the "boarding forum"), after the woman acknowledged and indicated that her sealed envelope contained a check for the total amount owing, just before pulling out of our driveway with their horse.

I'm decidedly peeved (okay, so, way beyond peeved, but the words are not appropriate for a family friendly forum)... so, I know what I have written in response to this family's hostility may be over the top right now. Not sure if it will ever be NOT a complete slam of factual information to rebut their false claims and accusations. I hateHATEhate the thought of letting someone falsly accuse me (or my spouse) of something and NOT defending ourselves and pointing out FACTUAL (actually IN WRITING FACTS) details to rebut the accusations lobbed our way. Actually, I'm kind of scared of the repercussions of allowing a person to believe (and spread lies) the things that they have cowardly accused us of in a letter they gave us, telling me it was their payment in full. 

So, my question...

Am I stooping to their level to write a letter demanding the people remit payment IN FULL for what they left still owing, on their contractually required 30 day notice? Okay... so the "stooping" portion of this would be the part where I rebut their lies. Or, should I just send a simple invoice, titled "demand for payment". Either way, it would be sent certified mail.

I have worked in the service industry for over 10 years, and feel that I have pretty decent communication skills, at the very least I'm up front. My "up front-ness" often comes off kind of b!^@% when people have wronged me intentionally, but... ugh. I'm at a loss as far as being "nice" is concerned. 

I want to be professional, but I also want to lay down some verbal whoop-butt without actually doing anything other than saying "You have claimed 'X', when the fact of the situation is 'A'". I've been told I have the capacity to write letters that would make a grown man cry... Okay. So, I'm pretty sure I just answered my own question and writing a (even factually based) letter with the hopes the intended audience would feel like a schmuck is probably stooping. Being simple and straightforward and sending a simple demand for payment invoice is NOT stooping. My reason will win over, which is why I'm sitting on this letter. 

Should I let the people believe they are right without even attempting to correct it? I mean... I guess I can't MAKE someone believe otherwise when they are clearly not capable of being reasonable, but should I try? We have a barn full of amazing boarders, and there is a mutual respect and appreciation for what each person has to offer among all of us. Why do these tools have to come in and screw things up in our peaceful little pony world? 

Thoughts? Experiences? Maybe I just am looking for similar experiences and how other's have handled them?


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Also... thank you to anyone for reading that. I'm just a big bundle of "frustrated" today :/


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## Nitefeatherz (Jan 23, 2012)

It sounds like regardless you are going to demand payment from them for the 30 days they owe (which is only right seeing as they had a contract with you and it sounds like they have been a problem before this in terms of payment.)

I have to agree with that- if you let one person get away with it the problem tends to spread. 

What you really need to decide in terms of sending the letter or not is how productive you feel the letter will be. What are your goals in sending the letter? What are you looking to accomplish- and what will those accomplishments do for you in the long run? 

It sounds like these people are making false claims. Generally it is said that one person who is unhappy will tell ten more people- who tell more people- and someone making false claims can damage your reputation which can impede your ability to gain new boarders. 

On the other hand- if you are unconcerned about what these people are saying and feel that your history speaks for itself and that this "letter" is not worth the trouble it will bring you long term- don't send it.

You are angry now- wait until your temper has cooled and then decide. Emotions can cloud your judgement. It also wouldn't hurt to find someone you trust who knows the situation and ask their advice if you can trust them to be neutral. 

My concern with "letting them believe they are right" is that the ones that are most wrong tend to be the most vocal- and thus the most damaging to reputations. That would concern me.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Off topic, and sorry I have no advice but...you use a lot of big vocabulary! Infact, so much that the post was hard to follow...hehe 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

Having dealt with "breach of contract" issues as a contractor, and depending on the cumulative total of monies owed, it may or may not be worth the hassle of going after them.
If the amount owed is less than $500, it may not be worthwhile.
If more, it generally is.
You'll likely end up in small claims court, which, if your ducks are all lined up, is usually a slam dunk. Just be absolutely sure to make notes of everything, along with times and dates, and anyone who was also present at the time for corroboration if needed.
The smalles amount i have gone after someone for was $86, largest was just over $15k.
Sometimes, it's not the money, it's the principle.
Some folks get the notion in their head that they can do whatever they want, because nobody ever had the stones to call them out on the carpet about it.
When i had my tree company, the WORST people i dealt with were from southern california.
So many tried to stiff me or get a discount after the fact, that if i saw a CA license plate in the driveway, my price jumped 25% to cover the hassles and headaches.
Not all socal folks were like that, but i never had an issue with folks from anywhere else like i did with those folks.
So, if the money or principle is worth the time and effort of going after them, go for it.
Step one is sending them an invoice, with certified copies of the originals on file, so you have done your due diligence and they can't come back and say they werent informed.
From there, they generally have 30 days to comply.
If no action has been taken on their part, you can usually file a claim in small claims court. Be sure to include all of your court costs in the filing, including wages for lost time devoted to the action.
They get served with the summons by an officer of the court, usually the sherriff, which usually gets things resolved in a hurry.
If it does go to court, bring a bunch of people with you. It's intimidating to them, as they usually only bring themselves and a thin file of paperwork.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

lubylol said:


> Off topic, and sorry I have no advice but...you use a lot of big vocabulary! Infact, so much that the post was hard to follow...hehe
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seriously, that's your 'contribution' to this thread? Yew use a lotta big werds n I caint unnerstand yer post, hyuck! 

OP, I haven't read your other thread, and although it's obvious you're angry and frustrated, you won't get anywhere by trying to play tit for tat. 

If the amount they owe is significant, then take them to small claims court. You can get a judgement and have their wages garnished. If it's not significant, then send them an invoice outlining what they owe you, based on the boarding contract that they signed.

While bashing them verbally or in written form may make you feel vindicated, it's not something you want to do as a business person. Be professional and state things clearly, without rancor. That will go a long way when it comes to your reputation.

Some people deliberately look to screw over others, unfortunately. Good luck.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

lubylol said:


> Off topic, and sorry I have no advice but...you use a lot of big vocabulary! Infact, so much that the post was hard to follow...hehe
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually rather enjoyed reading the post. Reading the typical text type, slang filled stuff on the internet can get tiresome, I found this to be rather refreshing.

OP - as has been said, it comes down to risk/reward. Is the amount you would be seeking to recover worth the investment of time and effort to recover? Is the "victory on principal" alone worth it if the amount is not an issue?


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## Daisy25 (May 29, 2011)

Just my $.02 - 

First, send a short, simple bill detailing monies still owed (with a DUE DATE! - as in payment must be remitted by xx-xx-xxxx

I do not expect that they will pay.

After xx-xx-xxxx comes and goes - take them to small claims court. If you have everything documented, it should be an easy win.

Good luck!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

lubylol said:


> Off topic, and sorry I have no advice but...you use a lot of big vocabulary! Infact, so much that the post was hard to follow...hehe
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's adult talk.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

... thanks for all of the advice, guys. I've narrowed down my 'PAY US NOW!!!!!" rant to 2 pages (down from 5) that directly address the false claims she makes that are in regard to _material terms_ of our boarding contract. Still thinking on it.

I'd like it to be one brief page, but at the same time, I feel that it needs to address the parts of her letter where this woman (and her family) accused us of not providing credit for work performed (when they actually kept their own records and paid us based on them, which was acceptable to us because, before this instance, our records mostly matched). Apparently she believes that her "feelings" equate to us violating our contractual agreement... you know, 'cuz she was upset over being fired.

Still thinking...


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If the monies aren't forthcoming by ....date... you leave me no recourse but to seek legal action. BTW that goes by registered mail.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Update! I sent out a concise letter that basically stated that their signature and initial on our boarding contract indicated a clear intent to be bound by it's terms. Additionally, the boarder themselves provided written (and verbal) acknowledgment that they understood they were responsible for providing and paying this 30 day notice as required in provision X.X. of our boarding contract, which states: blahblahblahblahblah. 

The boarder verbally acknowledged that they owed the amount provided in the invoice which they were presented. They further indicated that this amount was being paid by check when they handed me an envelope. As I was opening said envelope, this individual got in their truck and drove away with their horse. They had blatantly misrepresented the contents of the envelope by indicating they had provided payment in full (when reminded that they had to pay the full amount of $235.00 prior to removing their horse and related equipment stored at our farm from the premises). Told them the amount they "made up" was incorrect, and demanded payment in the amount of "$$" immediately. Their own letter and hard to follow "30 Day Notice" calculation (in which they credited themselves for work which they did not perform) serve as evidence that they were aware of their contractual obligation, although they clearly had the intent to stiff us (of which they provided evidence their own letter). 

"Failure to remit payment by X date will result in late fees. Failure to remit payment by Y date will result in this situation being presented in small claims court..."

Our history DOES speak for itself, as all of our boarders would gladly tell anyone who cares, so I wrote out my frustrations (for myself), then wrote the actual "this is our board contract... it says... pay now" - Signed, sealed, delivered via certified mail, return receipt requested, per the requirements of our boarding contract. We'll see. :/ They aren't worth the time, really... but it is all about principle. Like someone in this forum already (sorry, can't remember who as I'm writing this) indicated, by allowing these people to get away with blatantly disregarding our boarding contract, that could send the wrong message to our other boarders, etc... Feelings aside, it was a contractual obligation and having hurt feelings does not discredit any portion of the amount owing per the boarding contract. We went above and beyond in fulfilling our contractual obligation to these individuals. I'm just absolutely appalled that they believe that it is okay to behave the way they have simply because things weren't going "their way" anymore. 

I just want to say - "GUESS WHAT PEOPLE? It is NOT BURGER KING!!!!! That is WHY we have a boarding contract that clearly states what board _does _provide, and includes our expectations of boarders, etc. We provide services the way we see fit and to the highest quality standards. We are in business to take exceptional care of horses [which is why these people brought us their horse: she was emaciated and in poor health, which we quickly remedied]. People who appreciate what we do are welcome to be here, people who do not like what we do are welcome to not come or to leave. That simple." Ugh.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Ok. Am I understanding you fired them? And then expect them to stay another 30 days? If they were working off board and you fired them I would expect them to leave and not be concerned about the contract. You didn't give them 30 days to get another job did you? You need to move on and get over it if I understand it correctly.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Churumbeque:

They were "fired" (although we didn't do it quite like the Don, and were as a nice as could be when you are dismissing someone from being given opportunities to work for credit). We didn't whine at them about their shoddy work performance, ANNNNND they were dismissed in a manner that gave them over 40 days notice that the board for the month of April would be the full amount due without any earned credit towards it. During the time in between (our notice that they could no longer work for credit and the date that they would owe full board) the board for the month of March would be due, but would be due with credit for work performed deducted from it, and if they decided to leave would additionally be pro-rated to reflect the "notice" that was required of them). 

This was a completely separate arrangement than their actual "Boarding Agreement", and per the laws of our state, there is no requirement to provide notice to them that they were "fired", although we gave them plenty of notice for the simple reason that we respected them as ALSO being our clients. As any reasonable person would do, we provided the same "notice" which we expected (and that was contractually obligated by them in our boarding contract) in return. We fulfilled all of the obligations required by our boarding contract, which again, was separate from offering these individuals the opportunity to work for credit. We went above and beyond in accommodating these individuals.

Anyhow... lesson learned, we will no longer offer "work for credit" opportunities for any boarders, as they all inevitably try to take advantage of us and insist on doing what they want, when they want, and then want to get crappy when we inform them that they are not performing the job to our standards. We will only tell someone "Hey, we need you to do it this way..." and demonstrate SOOOO many times (with the people standing with arms folded and sneer on their face) before we just say "Sorry, we can no longer offer you this opportunity to work for credit..." 

With the people in this situation, we even offered alternate opportunities for them to work for credit when we got sick of telling them how to clean the stalls properly... they performed their new jobs in a mediocre fashion, at best, and demonstrated a clear disdain for the fact that we _EXPECTED THEM TO *ACTUALLY* WORK_ (in manner that met our demonstrated criteria and our business demands) for the _CREDIT WHICH THEY WERE RECEIVING_. They were never led to believe that they would receive credit when they did not work. Their own schedules were preventing them from providing the work we asked of them when it was necessary, which, in any "job" (whether working for cash or working for credit) is a pretty basic material condition to retaining the status of "employed". [P.S. although I used caps, it was merely for emphasis, not to indicate yelling, haha]


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

well alrighty then. LOL
Any way when it comes to trades someone is always unhappy.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Yeah :/ It sucks, nonetheless. Anytime we discussed a "new" job, we asked what the people thought a "fair value" would be, and they were always on the same page we were (or at least indicated they were). Ah well... I feel better after getting my ranting out and then still be able to come up with a "professional" and to the point letter. Thanks for reading all this garbage :/


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## Nine (May 25, 2008)

I think that a short invoice for outstanding balance is good. In a short note, I think you could rebutt the false claims in a logical, succinct manner. Take most of the adjective out, and be very clinical about what you have to say, to refute her claims. I believe you have the right to express yourself, as she did. Tell her if she would like to meet in person, that would be fine. And keep your logical, calm demeanor if you do meet up. Someone who throws false testimony will probably not meet you, though. I think it would do you good to answer her claims, though. I feel as if you will feel better, if you do write to her. Good luck. Stay calm and strong.
Nine


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## karebear444 (Feb 3, 2012)

A contract is a contract. That person is responsible for what they owe you. I agree that you should send them a bill and if no response, take them to small claims. Sorry you got duped and I hope things work out.


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

sillyhorses said:


> ... thanks for all of the advice, guys. I've narrowed down my 'PAY US NOW!!!!!" rant to 2 pages (down from 5) that directly address the false claims she makes that are in regard to _material terms_ of our boarding contract. Still thinking on it.
> 
> I'd like it to be one brief page, but at the same time, I feel that it needs to address the parts of her letter where this woman (and her family) accused us of not providing credit for work performed (when they actually kept their own records and paid us based on them, which was acceptable to us because, before this instance, our records mostly matched). Apparently she believes that her "feelings" equate to us violating our contractual agreement... *you know, 'cuz she was upset over being fired*.
> 
> Still thinking...


Yeah, well THAT adds quite a bit to the situation at hand, doesn't it?
You canned someone who was working at your stable to pay the boarding in full or in part. 
You now have a very different set of rules to play by!
If this person was in fact an "on the books" employee, IE any compensation was documented, and it sounds like it was (though no dispute of fair compensation if i read it correctly), labor laws may come into play.
Is your state a "right to work" state, or did you have an "at will" type agreement?
Did you document the work performed, quality thereof, and any discrepancies?
Did you establish a progressive discipline program, and document it accordingly, before terminating their employment? 

I realize i may be taking this in a hugely different direction than intended, but with the abstract originally posted, and not knowing specifics, i'm attempting to help cover all bases.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

azwantapaint said:


> Yeah, well THAT adds quite a bit to the situation at hand, doesn't it?
> You canned someone who was working at your stable to pay the boarding in full or in part.
> You now have a very different set of rules to play by!
> If this person was in fact an "on the books" employee, IE any compensation was documented, and it sounds like it was (though no dispute of fair compensation if i read it correctly), labor laws may come into play.
> ...


Thanks for your input. This individual was not an "on the books" employee. Before coming to our farm, she was given a copy of our boarding contract to review(of which, we upheld the material terms we were responsible for). Agreed to the terms in it (which are the same terms all of our other boarders abide by). They had been repeatedly asked to improve their "work" performance, and you can only re-explain the same thing SOOOO many times before just going "okay, they're just too lazy". I mean... how difficult is it to swipe some bedding to the side and find the horse's wet spot? As much as they cleaned stalls, they would have known where each horse's wet spot ALWAYS was. When we offered them the opportunity to perform work in exchange for credit towards their board, they were informed that we expected them to complete the job asked of them, the way we asked them to do it. 

Not that it matters, because this was not "on the books", but we live in an "at will" state, anyhow. When we "fired" them, we gave them 40+ days notice that they would be expected to pay full board (they had earned credit towards board for the coming month). The woman got snotty and made up some bizarre "invoice" claiming credit for work which she did not perform... all because we "stepped on their toes", and no longer offered them the opportunity to live beyond their means. 

We never had any discrepancies in work (they kept track of the work they performed, we'd touch base and say "ok, you worked these days, and this many stalls?", and we never had a discrepancy; they paid based on this). Our way of firing them was to simply say "We can no longer afford to offer to credit you for work, so we will no longer be assigning you jobs. Perhaps in the future, if our financial situation changes, we can work something else out..." (not that we'd ever tell them if it did, but as far as we were concerned, they didn't need to know that). 

I mean... we really tried to _not_ ruffle their feathers. We DID expect that they'd leave (they'd made many mentions that they couldn't afford more than what were paying after working a portion off), but we certainly didn't expect them to just become flat-out jerks. Especially after all of the ways we went ABOVE AND BEYOND for these people. They frequently requested that I starve their horse for the sake of "making her behave" (which was always flat-out denied, and I offered to have the woman do HER OWN RESEARCH and come to me with an alternate feed plan that provided her horse with adequate nutrition but decreased whatever the woman thought made her horse "act up"; we even had a vet advise her). We also had several instances where the woman was borderline aggressive when I was trying to explain different things to her. 

So, in addition to no longer wanting them working for us... we were glad to have them leave. However, we were kind, went above and beyond for these people, and they completely stabbed us in the back. They said "Oh, we understand... no hard feelings. We don't want to burn bridges... here is our payment in full. We are just going to move our mare to the barn where our kid is riding another horse everyday, it'll be more convenient." then gave us this awful, ungrateful, whining letter in which they took no responsibility for themselves, threaten to slander us, and said they weren't paying what was in the invoice which we gave to her and made up her own. The invoice which she *looked at* and *acknowledged* as being 100% accurate!!!! I'm just appalled at how two-faced, selfish and unprofessional some people can be when things don't go "their way"... 

P.S. She paid us in full after I sent the invoice, and included a rediculous letter that said that the contract "was a silly piece of paper" that meant "nothing" to her, and told us that she and her kid are "praying for us". Ha.


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

Yep. One of those folks that loves the sound of their own voice!
A legend in their own mind!
If they squared up with you, chalk it up to experience, and call it a day.
If not, hook 'em up with the bonus plan!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

azwantapaint said:


> Is your state a "right to work" state, or did you have an "at will" type agreement?


Neither of those two legal concepts apply to the OP's situation.

"Right to work" means only that one is not compelled to join a labor union as a condition of employment, IF the position in question is covered by a bargaining agreement. How many barns are unionized?

And if your job isn't covered by a specific contract, you are automatically an "at will" employee, which can be released from work for almost any reason. The only protections are against being fired for a reason that violates some very specific protected categories.

The people the OP is dealing with are nutjobs, plain and simple.


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## Nine (May 25, 2008)

It's obvious that you did all you could. They were ungrateful and unwilling to admit any fault. As AZWANTAPAINT said, just chalk it up to a bad experience and if the subject comes up, you can always sayyou have documentation that shows that you were fair and gave them plenty of chances to either improve their work ethic or leave. I'm sorry that they weren't as kind to you as you were to them.


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

Here is what I think, I would send a registered letter, tell them that they own the full balance. You may not get any thing but you could take it off your taxes as a lost but you have to have it in writing that she owes you it may also stop others from doing this because the will now that you will go after them


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

Actually, I think you are being nasty! I think I would have written it off as a good lesson. It's not that much money to cause all this fuss! If you take them to small claims court she will have her work records and you will have yours. "He said, she said". Obviously there was no agreement about "working off the board"......she/they thought they were working up to standard and you did not. Sound like they were mad about getting fired and couldn't wait to leave!! I wouldn't wanted to stay either with someone like you that has such a bad temper!!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

ChristineNJ said:


> Actually, I think you are being nasty!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't wanted to stay either with someone like you that has such a bad temper!!


Could you please point out where the OP is being nasty? And where you are seeing "such a bad temper"?


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

ChristineNJ said:


> Actually, I think you are being nasty! I think I would have written it off as a good lesson. It's not that much money to cause all this fuss! If you take them to small claims court she will have her work records and you will have yours. "He said, she said". Obviously there was no agreement about "working off the board"......she/they thought they were working up to standard and you did not. Sound like they were mad about getting fired and couldn't wait to leave!! I wouldn't wanted to stay either with someone like you that has such a bad temper!!


Now we know who doesn't like being held accountable, now do we?


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

ChristineNJ said:


> Actually, I think you are being nasty! I think I would have written it off as a good lesson. It's not that much money to cause all this fuss! If you take them to small claims court she will have her work records and you will have yours. "He said, she said". Obviously there was no agreement about "working off the board"......she/they thought they were working up to standard and you did not. Sound like they were mad about getting fired and couldn't wait to leave!! I wouldn't wanted to stay either with someone like you that has such a bad temper!!


The problem in this situation was not about whether or not there were any actual discrepancies in how much work was performed. The woman/family were trying to lie about their contractual obligations, only problem being that we had it all in WRITING. The offer to work was completely separate. However, the mother in the family decided to take it so much further in her unprofessional letter and intentionally falsified credit for work she didnt perform in a DELIBERATE attempt to stiff us. Then after I sent a brief letter, directing her attention to certain points of our contract, and the same invoice she acknowledged owing, she paid. With the check for the full amount of the invoice, she gave us another letter in which she ACTUALLY SAYS "the contact is silly", "means nothing"to her, and says she is only 
paying because of her faith. You know, because apparently she does not understand what a contact is for, and is trying to be all "holier than thou"in an effort to refrain from admitting to herself or her family that she was wrong, or two faced, or just plain stupid (or all of the above). If she had a problem with the terms, including price, and the explicit thirty day notice requirement, she should have kept looking for a different barn. We were annoyed that they didnt complete the work as instructed, but out of courtesy allowed them to work to a point where, they could submit thirty day notice and they'd still have been paying considerably less than the amount she AGREED to as the actual price of board.

I'm still not sure why you think I'm being nasty, or have a temper. I have a problem with people trying to walk all over us and take advantage of our kindness. However, anything nasty that i have had to say has been contained to this forum and a letter that I wrote to vent my frustrations/rebut the flat out lies of this "holy roller", but that was never sent. Instead, we sent a brief letter reminding them of their contractual obligations, including the fact that failure to uphold their end of it could result in a suit... Simply on principle alone. 

If we just let people pay us whatever they wanted and did not have a contract, I'd certainly take responsibility and not pursue the monies owed. However, that contract is in place EXACTLY for these types of stupid situations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

Actually, there are always 2 sides to every story and we're not hearing the other side. I was just wondering how you can be sure of how much work she was doing? I'm sure you didn't stand there watching her all the time. Or did you? I just think that you are very angry and it would be best for everyone including yourself if you just let it go. If she is as nasty, "two-faced & as "stupid" as you say why bother with her? I don't think it is worth the agravation to deal with her anymore if she is as bad as you say.


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## Nine (May 25, 2008)

Wow, ChristineNJ, I think that Sillyhorses was just telling us about a raw deal that she got. No, we haven't heard the other side. But if people are supposed to do a certain amount of work in a certain way, for the board of their horse, it's only fair, then, that they do their work to specifications. They knew going in, what was expected of them. They signed a contract - legal and binding - on their own free will. No-one held a gun to them to sign that contract. After their horse stayed at this barn they just can't change their minds and say, no we don't want to do it your way. As the owner of the barn, and the one who was feeding that horse, and letting them keep the horse in the stall/pasture whatever, Sillyhorses has a right to have those people keep their end of the bargain. Please, just take a step back and look at the whole picture. Sillyhorses did them a favor. They wanted to take advantage, by threatening (implied threat) that they would tell others of the "unfair treatment". When actually, they signed their names in agreement with the arrangements set out before they started to work. They didn't want to be held to the contract. It's quite simple. I see no nastiness nor bad temper from Sillyhorses. She has a right to feel put out and frustrated.
Hang in there, Sillyhorses. What goes around comes around. The former boarders will have to learn the hard way, what life is truely about.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

The person doing the work was given specific assignments. Even when it wasn't done to our standards, but an attempt was made, they still received full credit and were shown AGAIN what was expected. THEY even kept their own records, and they always matched ours. Again, no discrepancy, Christinenj. The matter has been dealt with professionally. We DID receive payment in full after a firm reminder of the contractual obligations. Regardless of how hard the woman tried to spin it, she paid the balance in full because it was contractually owed. I think that speaks volumes about the truth of the situation. She absolutely would not have paid of she truly didnt believe she owed it; it is just the kind of people they are. They thought they'd bully us with hurtful words and we'd back down (because we've been nothing but accommodating of them thus far) - they were sorely and very stupidly mistaken.

Thanks for your support and understanding, Nine 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

ChristineNJ said:


> Actually, there are always 2 sides to every story and we're not hearing the other side. I was just wondering how you can be sure of how much work she was doing? I'm sure you didn't stand there watching her all the time. Or did you? I just think that you are very angry and it would be best for everyone including yourself if you just let it go. If she is as nasty, "two-faced & as "stupid" as you say why bother with her? I don't think it is worth the agravation to deal with her anymore if she is as bad as you say.


Sometimes, when you're in business, it's not necessarily about the money, it's about the principle of the matter.
If you hired a contractor to perform a specific repair to your home, let's say a roof replacement, and they did an incomplete job as specified in the contract, would you pay in full?
Or, would you short pay it, waiting to pay in full until the job was completed per the contract?
Having owned a couple service type businesses, and having dealt with people like this on numerous occasions, if it isnt in writing, it never happened and cannot be proven.
My personal favorite was a job i had bid to take 5 days and the total bill was $3000.
The contract spelled out very specifically everything that we would perform for the homeowner, in detail, in writing.
We finished the job in 3 days. Everything went perfectly, well beyond what i could have ever have imagined.
The homeowner came out, inspected everything, and agreed that we had performed our job as specified or better.
He went back inside to cut the check, as we completed securing 10 tons of pine logs on the trailer, which happened to be right across the driveway, which sloped downhill towards the house.
He came back out, with a check for half of the amount due.
Now remember, he had agreed that all work had been completed per our contract...
His "justification" was that the job only took half the time i anticipated it would.
He even threatened to call the cops on me if we didnt leave!
So, what should i have done in your eyes?
I'll tell you what i actually did....
When he threatened to call the cops, i told him to go for it.
I'd even give him the personal cell numbers for the Chief, the Sherriff, the DA, and the town Mayor if he liked. (They and I shot handguns competitively at the time, along with many of the local officers, detectives, and deputies)
He got flustered, started babbling about highway robbery and the like, and still wouldn't pay up.
So, i had my guys start loosening the straps on the load of logs.
His wife came out to see what the brouhaha was about, so i showed her what her hubby had attempted to do.
She apologized, marched him back inside, and cut the check properly for the full amount of the contract.
What's the principle here that applies in both cases?
A contract was in hand that specified in writing certain services and activities for a specific price, that was agreed upon by all parties involved.
One party attempted to renegotiate the terms after the fact based upon their own perceived "right" to renege on their responsibilities, and they got called out on it.
The service provider in both instances held up their end of the agreement and there was ultimately no basis for dispute of that fact, making the client responsible for compensation in full for the agreed upon monies.
People like these are the 5% that take up 90% of my time as a business owner.
Theyre very difficult to deal with, feel compelled to tell you how important they are in their own mind, and do their very best to make something thats simple into something obnoxiously difficult.
They screw things up for the other 95% of great clients whom take care of things appropriately, promptly, and as agreed.
I adore great clients. They also usually get a little bonus for being a great client, be it something nice, like a little present personalized for them, or a little discount on the final invoice.
The turd clients get nothing but a thank you for your business.
A business is in business to be profitable. It's not a charity, no handouts on request, and no freebies on request.
We provide goods and/or services for a price, which we hope is profitable. Thats where our paycheck comes from. It's not an hourly wage, or salary, thats guranteed every week or month.
Our paycheck is a direct reflection of how well we serve our clients every single day.
The better job we do, the more we make, at least in theory.
Now, having said all this, you can agree with me, or disagree with me, and it makes no difference to me.
The rules of business are simple, and irrefutable.
Serve people well, meet or exceed their expectations, control expenses, and make money.
Fail to do so, and you're out of business quick, and you'll work for someone who does follow the laws of business well.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

ChristineNJ said:


> Actually, there are always 2 sides to every story and we're not hearing the other side. I was just wondering how you can be sure of how much work she was doing? I'm sure you didn't stand there watching her all the time. Or did you? I just think that you are very angry and it would be best for everyone including yourself if you just let it go. If she is as nasty, "two-faced & as "stupid" as you say why bother with her? I don't think it is worth the agravation to deal with her anymore if she is as bad as you say.


Just who are you to tell anyone how to run a business and deal with delinquent debtors?

Have you ever run a business yourself? Have you ever been stiffed by non-payment?

Your commentary is way out of line.


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

Maybe the family were not so terrible because supposedly they paid the bill when they received it in the mail. Again, we never heard their side of the story.....it might be quite different! There are three sides to every story....my side, your side and the truth!
Azwantapaint...... the materials & work for a home project is something concrete and can be seen whereas who is to prove what work was done and how it was done is intangeable and something that is seen differently by different people. I would love to see this case go to court with Judge Judy presiding!!!! I'm sure she would have alot of questions for sillyhorses.
Mildot =Pfffffffff


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Contract = boarding facility provides x, y and z in exchange for set amount of $$$. We provided x, y and z... There was never a question regarding that. 

WORK ARRANGEMENT: 1 stall = set amount of $, per stall. Additional odd jobs... Credit value agreed upon on job by job basis.

You pretty much cannot go wrong there, especially since, in the year they had been here, why the heck would they have stayed or continued to provide work if they were shorted? Oh yeah...AND the part where, each month the people told us "this is what we came up with...", and it matched ours (we never had a dispute). If it hadn't, do you really think they'd
have stayed? Would a reasonable person have stayed? No.

Not to mention, this woman wrote the dates/number of stalls cleaned on 75% of her board checks...squeezed it in on the tiny note line, haha. 

Not sure why you feel the need to try to play devils advocate? Starting to think, with your nonsense, vague "rebuttals", you may be this person! It is pretty cut and dry stuff. Also, please read: the woman reviewed the invoice, and verified it was correct (work credit and all), before going home and getting irked that they couldn't afford to be here and became a jerk about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

P.s. While outside of television Judge Judy had been an actual judge, her television personality is not "real life", and she plays up a part of herself that is quite unprofessional and dramatic. People who are on that show sign a CONTRACT acknowledging that, although they are out of proper jurisdiction, they wil abide by Judge Judy's verdict - like it or not. Guess what - outside of that "mock"courtroom, that CONTRACT is what will be enforced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

ChristineNJ said:


> Maybe the family were not so terrible because supposedly they paid the bill when they received it in the mail. Again, we never heard their side of the story.....it might be quite different! There are three sides to every story....my side, your side and the truth!
> Azwantapaint...... the materials & work for a home project is something concrete and can be seen whereas who is to prove what work was done and how it was done is intangeable and something that is seen differently by different people. I would love to see this case go to court with Judge Judy presiding!!!! I'm sure she would have alot of questions for sillyhorses.
> Mildot =Pfffffffff


The specifics of a written contract are also concrete, and can be seen as well. 
Mending a fence, cleaning a stall, sweeping a floor, and the like, are all very tangible things.
Their longevity and persistent nature of results may be very different than that of a roof, but are readily provable and easily documentable in the same fashion.
My money says Judge Judy would eat the client alive, sillyhorses would win her case, and a verbal beatdown of the client would be the result.
How can I prove work done/not done/shoddy or half cocked effort?
It's not rocket science, and it's not difficult.
It's a nifty little gizmo called a digital camera.
Before and after photos are irrefutable.
A contrasting photo of a "proper" job on a given task to demonstrate the quality of workmanship expected, and the client's failure to perform.
How would I document a fence mending task? 
A photo before, a photo after completion, and if i had to go back and do it over, a third photo of the job done "properly", along with time necessary to complete the project on top of the time wasted on shoddy workmanship.
Your roof may look great, but if it leaks like a sieve when it rains, it's about worthless. It is unable to perform the job for which it was procured.
If i hire you to fix my fenceline, we would make a contract specifying who is responsible for what, who procures materials, and who performs what duties. We would also agree on compensation in accordance with the tasks at hand as spelled out in our agreement, and the level of expectation of the end results.
For example, to use the pasture where our horses are currently boarded as the example-
Agreement to repair fences at xyz ranch, northeast pasture, from the gate at so and so location, northward 287' to the ne corner of said pasture, westward 169' to the nw corner of said pasture, southward 293' to the sw corner of said pasture, eastward to and including the gate of said pasture.
Work to be performed as follows:
1) top wire shall be taut across all posts.
2) wire fencing shall be repaired or replaced as necessary. No holes exceeding 2.5"x4.5" shall be allowed, measured at 3 points equidistant from the center of the opening in question.
3) all materials for repair shall be procured by the ranch in a timely fashion not to exceed 24 hours from notification. In the event that equal materials are unavailable in a timely dashion, (ie on backorder), the ranch has sole disctretion as to how to procure the materials necessary to complete the work.
4) any structural issues shall be brought to the attention of ranch management point of contact joey bagadonuts for additional assessment and instructions on how to proceed.
$500.00, to be paid in 3 increments. $100 due at signing of this agreement by both parties, $200 at completion, and $200 following final inspection.


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

Yikes Azwant.....you might as well do the job yourself if your going around with a camera all day. Don't forget the woman/family was fired so she was "irked" about that!. Ya think? As for Judge Judy, yes, she is a real Judge and was a Judge in Family Court for many years. I do believe that she was as tough in Family Court as she is on TV. Sillyhorse, that IS her personality! It's not just a TV persona. And, yes, it is a real Court and the verdicts stand because it is a real Court and because they are based on "real" law. I enjoy watching her because she sniffs out the truth every time. And the people who are not telling the truth deserve what they get! "Rough Justice"


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

If you have a cell phone, you have a camera with a date/time stamp.
Being that the vast majority of us have cell phones....you get the picture.
Out of curiosity, who has TIME to watch television?
If you have time to burn like that, you might want to find a hobby or other creative outlet for your energy.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Interesting conversation.  Glad to hear the situation was resolved.

The OP asked about "stooping to their level" in a letter detailing "why" money was owed. My feeling has always been doing this type of thing is a big mistake. While it may may you feel better to "get it off your chest," there are too many negatives that can come back to bite you.

First, you have to realize it is all business - not personal. Someone owes you money, you send them a bill with the amount. Explaining why they owe you money outside of the "description of product/services" serves no useful purpose. It can also hurt you.

If someone owes you $500 for one month board, that's all the invoice should ever say. If you add to this with some long explanation, that explanation could end up being considered part of the arrangement. If you end up in court/arbitration your letter - and the long explanation - becomes part of the agreement. It rarely works in your favor always seems to work against you. The less you say, the better.

Going into a long explanation also tends to muddy the conversation. Someone owes you "$500 for x" is short and to the point. I either owe you or I don't. Add two or three pages of explanation to that simple statement and I now have plenty to argue/discuss with you. "That wasn't a Tuesday, it was a Wednesday!" "That couldn't have been me, I was visiting my Mother that day and I can prove it." All minor details that have nothing to do with the actual amount owed, but can still sidetrack the conversation.

Look at this thread. It is now talking about Judge Judy, which has no bearing on the original question. Not a comment on any of the people here - just showing how too much information can easily confuse the issue.


BTW - "Judge Judy" is NOT a real court. It is considered arbitration. Yes, the participants sign contracts and the decision is legally binding. But still not a real court. Despite any prior career, Judy is now a TV actor and not acting on this show as a real elected or appointed "judge."

Her show is a take-off of the original "People's Court" (Judge Wapner for you fellow old-timers). In the old People's Court, I recall the participants being compensated for appearance. If memory serves, the monetary judgements were paid by the show's producers. Participants, by agreeing to the decisions, would waive any future legal claims. Thus, the show's decision was "final" and no one had to be chased down to collect the money (thereby, eliminating any bad publicity for the show). I would bet Judge Judy works the same way. It, like "Dr. Phil" and many other shows is for entertainment and has little resemblance to reality.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

ChristineNJ said:


> I would love to see this case go to court with Judge Judy presiding!!!! I'm sure she would have alot of questions for sillyhorses.


 Judge Jude? _Seriously?_


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Thanks everyone, for your replies! Since this thread has gone in a totally different direction, as pointed out, I guess i'll leave it at that, haha. 

Taz - you are right. Toooooo much info detracts from the point. This issue has been resolved, outside of my ranting here, in a professional manner. 

Thanks again 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

ChristineNJ said:


> Maybe the family were not so terrible because supposedly they paid the bill when they received it in the mail. Again, we never heard their side of the story.....it might be quite different! There are three sides to every story....my side, your side and the truth!
> Azwantapaint...... the materials & work for a home project is something concrete and can be seen whereas who is to prove what work was done and how it was done is intangeable and something that is seen differently by different people. I would love to see this case go to court with Judge Judy presiding!!!! I'm sure she would have alot of questions for sillyhorses.
> Mildot =Pfffffffff


LOL......:lol:

You sound less mature than my 10 year old daughter. Take this case to a real court and I'd laugh at you getting crushed by the jury.

PS, some of us here have been professionals for a very, very long time. We know what we are doing and know how to win contractual disputes. In court. I seriously doubt you can match me or Azwantapaint in that regard.


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## Nine (May 25, 2008)

Tazmanian Devil, are you _sure_ Dr Phil isn't real?! I'm crushed and will need extensive psychotherapy. I have to go lie down....


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## Nine (May 25, 2008)

Tazmanian Devil, are you really from Tazmania? Just curious. I've got some really great friends there.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Nine said:


> Tazmanian Devil, are you _sure_ Dr Phil isn't real?! I'm crushed and will need extensive psychotherapy. I have to go lie down....



I think he is a real psychologist. However, his show is simply a TV show. There was actually some controversy about this a while back. He was forced to add a disclaimer in the credits stating that the show was not intended to treat and was only for entertainment purposes.

Know one thing about TV and the movies... none of it is real. It is a business that makes its money by entertaining people. If is doesn't get ratings and advertisers it is off the air. That golden rule supersedes any "reality" or legitimate purpose. Feel free to be entertained by it all, but believe nothing of what you see on TV.



> Tazmanian Devil, are you really from Tazmania? Just curious. I've got some really great friends there.


No. Actually that is just a nickname my horse has. I'm a lifelong NY'er.


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

mildot said:


> LOL......:lol:
> 
> PS, some of us here have been professionals for a very, very long time. We know what we are doing and know how to win contractual disputes. In court. I seriously doubt you can match me or Azwantapaint in that regard.


Well thanks for the vote of confidence there Taz!
Admittedly, it is well earned on both sides of the arena.
Owning 3 start up businesses, and having been in contracting in one way or another for 14 years, i do have my battle scars, and lessons hard earned both good and bad.
It would seem though, that this thread has taken an extreme turn away from the original post, and has ultimately turned into a boogering match.
Sometimes, we forget that, while our intent may be helpful, it not always is the case as to how its perceived.
And, there will always be those who are ten feet tall and bulletproof on a forum. Just ask em! They'll tell you!
Mods, might be time to call this thread a day, and close it up before things get out of hand, which i see as the direction this is headed.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

azwantapaint said:


> Well thanks for the vote of confidence there Taz!


Check the attribution. I think you are confusing me with someone else.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

ChristineNJ said:


> Judge Judy, yes, she is a real Judge and was a Judge in Family Court for many years. I do believe that she was as tough in Family Court as she is on TV. Sillyhorse, *that IS her personality! It's not just a TV persona*. And, yes, it is a real Court and the verdicts stand because it is a real Court and because they are based on "real" law. I enjoy watching her because she sniffs out the truth every time. And the people who are not telling the truth deserve what they get! "Rough Justice"


So you know Judge Judy personally?


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

mildot....not 10...& not stupid....Real Estate License, BA in Sociology....so I know a bit about contracts and people's behavior! And I repeat, we heard only one side of a disagreement and it was from someone who was very very angry. Sometimes anger will color the response, and although she was trying to keep her anger down..... it was showing.


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

My cat is named Tazzy because she is a Tazmanian Devil!


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Christine: you are darned right that I was angry, as you would be if you were in our shoes. My question was not "should I say anything or not?", which is what you apparently thought. This thread is clearly labelled "rant" for a reason. Writing is an awesome outlet, and venting here enabled me a small outlet. Please read: this matter has been professionally handled. Yet you have felt compelled to make it your personal mission to attempt to attack my character in a thread that, again, is clearly titled "rant", and you fail to address the questions I posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

Hmmm....saw this tangent coming....
Sillyhorses, kudos to you for handling the situation professionally as best you were able to.
Kudos to all who provided beneficial information, alternative perspectives, and wise guidance to silly in her time of need, with a tough situation in hand.
Sometimes, a little feedback to help us break past our initial perspectives is a good thing, as it seems to have been in this instance.
While there have been some digressions into borderline personal attacks, overall, the information in this thread bears a bit of wisdom to be retained.
In the interests of all the members of this fine forum, and in my own small part to help keep it that way, sillyhorses may want to seriously consider closing this thread.
The situation has run it's course, and is complete if my understanding is accurate.
Let's let this thread achieve the same level of completion as it appears that little good can be had with the direction we're headed here.


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## sillyhorses (Sep 2, 2011)

Thank you to all who have contributed and helped me to clear my head and get past this situation  Azwantapaint: I have requested that this thread be closed, however, I'm not sure how that works... we will see


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

This thread seems to have run its' course and way off course. Shall we tuck it into bed now?


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