# Wild Horses & Burros Vs. Private Dometic Live Stock on Public Lands



## WildAbtHorses

*BLM Public Forum Summary (each received 5 minutes to speak)*

AML = Appropriate Management Levels of free-ranging horses and burros within multiple-use, including wildlife, livestock, wilderness, and recreation. https://www.nap.edu/read/13511/chapter/9

HMA = Herd Management Areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bureau_of_Land_Management_Herd_Management_Areas

The public 5 minutes:
1. Bonnie: 
1.a. concerned about herd levels in relationship to healthy generic reproduction pools 
1.b. horses and burros vs. private livestock on public land

2. Sandra:
2.a. additional "extra value" fees are added, such as training and corral pickup, to purchase price of a wild horse
2.b. professional trainers are discouraging purchasers from approaching their horse initially

3. Debbie:
3.a. requested more research and marketing "knowledge and value."
3.b. BLM has been sued (my questions why? and by whom?)

4. Peggy:
4.a. Concerned with "fake" AML numbers
4.b. Ted Talk? Elephants in the Sky? "Think About It"
4.c. Concerned sterilization of horses
4.d. Fences that prohibit horses access to water

5. Charlotte:
5.a. 50million from congress to incarcerate wild horses
5.b. social disruption, dangerous surgery, 
5.c. their range went from 53 million to 27 million
5.d. concerned about AML distribution and numbers in each herd
5.e. crisscrossing fencing and shared land with livestock
5.f. The U.S. House of Appropriation and Full Accounting of Land

6. Ginny:
6.a. overgrazing of private domestic livestock on public land
6.b. ratio of stallions to mares
6.c. helicopter round up costs (millions of dollars)

7. Delong:
7.a. approves of euthanization of the wild horses and burros
7.b. even with the 11,000 removed the population has increased by 7%
7.c. darting and sterilization is not practical
7.d. that no actual count of the wild horses and burros exist
7.e. the number of wild horses is a lot higher than the target

8. Jim:
8.a. lives next to public land and has had issues with wild horses "mixing" with his domestic horses
8.b. he thinks the herds are being "emotionally" managed
8.c. he is for the slaughtering of the wild horses

9. Christine:
9.a. knows of 4 HMAs at AML of zero (0)
9.b. there is a lack of AML scientific date
9.c. special interest parties controlling fencing for domestic private livestock
9.d. BLM Accountability Office ... before cattle and special interests (sorry not sure)

10. Brenda:
10.a. livestock is her interest and handling grazing permits
10.b. issue with wild horses "mixing" with domestic horses

11. Camryn's proposed solutions:
11.a. census, science, repatriate to 22 million (decrease of 41%), AML levels for generics, ratio horses to livestock (23% to 77% respectively), wild horses principle (main) resident, grazing permits retirement, reintroduce predators, and composition (?)

12. The Big Hat Man:
12.a. for disposal of these animals (burdon on taxpayers)

13. Pamala (too emotional):

14. Jerry:
14.a. is for disposal of excess wild horses
14.b. horses have 365-day grazing and cattle have limited grazing
14.c. The University of Idaho completed an impact of grazing research study

15. Sean:
15.a. is pro spaying fillies https://protecttheharvest.com/initiatives/wild-spayed-filly-futurity/
15.b. The BLM has been entrusted with the wild horse management, and the Act is not being adhered to, and they are devaluing these horses(?)

16. Kelly:
16.a. the northwest Colorada HMA has a max of 235 but currently has an unstainable 1,000 
16.b. needs excess horses removed
16.c. recommends 10,000 to 15,000 per year be removed to reduce numbers
16.d. the ecosystems need relief
16.e. last month 90 organizations met and created a shared statement that will be published soon
16.f. agreement: reduce, long-term funding, fertility options, and need an action for a non-lethal alternative

17: Joanne:
17.a. she mentioned that there is a report that lists AMLs by state and by HMA (sorry I didn't catch the name of the report)
17.b. 27,000 horses in the wild are not enough for generic viability
17.c. concerned with the ratio of wild horses to livestock


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## bsms

FWIW, grazing permits are for very specific time periods. They tell you the date you can move animals on, how many, and when you must leave. You buy the permit, but the government can change it at any time for the government's convenience. A friend nearly went under some years back when he paid $100,000 and the following year the government cut the numbers he could graze by 90%. And they did so without any regard for the actual land. The directive came from Washington DC to cut all the allotments in that area without regard for actual range conditions.

I'm told a rancher also is expected to pay out of pocket to make improvements at the government's "request". The same friend paid $20,000 to build ponds at the government's request and a couple of years later was kicked off the allotment entirely. Again without anyone actually going TO the allotment to see what was going on.

My friend now considers government allotments as the last choice for grazing. Still has some but is always looking for other options.

The idea that it is either / or, choose between X & Y bothers me. There is NO requirement to do so. Many years ago, I was a data collector on a study in Utah showing heavy grazing at the right time would INCREASE food for wildlife. Think of it as pruning for better growth. The standard idea that a rancher puts a thousand cattle in a valley and leaves them there until the ground is barren just doesn't happen. Not unless the federal manager is utterly stupid.

The one exception, though, is with mustangs. The manager gets to manage livestock and wildlife, hopefully including tourists, ATVs, timber, hunting, recreation, etc all into the mix. But once mustangs are there, no one manages them. The government is blocked from managing them, so they increase until they eat everything. 

I strongly object to the idea that mustangs should be given absolute priority over bighorn sheep, antelope, deer & elk.

Also: In a drought, the government can ban all domestic animals, or cut their numbers by as much as they want, immediately. Can't do that with deer, and certainly cannot do that with mustangs. That is because someone OWNS the sheep and cattle.

I cannot think of a single good reason why we are not allowed to manage mustangs.


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## bsms

I want to point out another factor. It is the concept of the limiting factor. Suppose, for example, a deer population is limited by the amount of protein in its diet between January & March. That is the bottleneck the population must squeeze through. Doubling the feed available in summer won't change the bottleneck and won't increase the deer herd.

In that scenario, one can graze cattle in the summer without any harm to the deer population. The limiting factors are what you need to identify. In the Intermountain West, surviving winter is usually the big challenge. So a rancher may feed his cattle on the mountainsides all summer, while baling hay crops. Then bring the herd down and feed them on his own property during the winter, all without harming the deer in any way.

That is a simplistic example, but I think it illustrates how a manager would approach the problem. Of course, lobbying groups can't raise money promoting a win-win approach. You bring in $$$ by presenting an evil opponent who must be beaten back - and will, if the listener gives you money and votes the way you want. Politics! I get more cynical every passing decade. :evil:


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## AndyTheCornbread

^ 1,000 times like the above and it is sooooo true on the improvements. The guy I drove cattle for earlier this year onto a co-op lease had his cattle on a BLM lease the year before and they made him fence in a HUGE stretch of stream bank on both sides because they said cows being near it would raise the temp 1 degree and it wouldn't support brook trout. There are no brook trout in that stream and never have been. They just wanted new fencing at his expense. It cost thousands of dollars to fence and he lost most all of the money he would have made by grazing his cattle there but it was too late to back out as they mandated it after he had the cattle on there through the summer. This year he is on a co-op lease and I would bet he never touches another BLM lease with a 10 foot pole. Which is a shame because cattle are the only thing that you can seasonally put up there to knock down ladder fuel without harming the habitat for deer and elk etc.


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## boots

@bsms and @AndyTheCornbread speak the truth.

Another thing to consider is that on forest service leases the rancher is to minimize the amount of time livestock spends in the treed parts. That seems backwards to most people and I hear about it. Backwards because there is more grass/forage in the open. 

But keeping the cows out of the trees gives the wildlife more room in there. Protection from the sun and heat. Relief from biting insects. The cows have to be moved around on the lease so they don't overgraze an area which saves feed (that cures well) for fall and winter.

And to add to what @bsms said about the length of time that was agreed to being changed... The rancher still has to pay the full amount. Because it was contractual. 

I won't do a government lease.


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## WildAbtHorses

to me, it sounds like BLM practices need to be audited and monitored more closely

hmm... those sneaky gas and oil companies (from 2013)... what's with the Gov't selling America's open space
https://rtfitchauthor.com/2013/07/02/blms-oil-gas-lease-corruption-exposed/

and how did 53 million acres get reduced to 27? in how many years?


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## bsms

Leasing land is not buying it. Leasing land for oil exploration is not the same as buying it, nor would it mean the company is certain to make a profit. Leasing land for a timber sale is also not buying it. Leasing it for grazing is not buying it. And a lease does not prevent the land from being used for many other things as well. All depends on the terms of the lease.

I do not know the specifics of the case the linked article discusses, but the terms of its discussion are fraudulent. There is nothing contradictory about moving a herd due to drought while allowing exploration for gas or oil. I don't deny government is sometimes corrupt. I'm certain it is. But the article is just a bunch of mixed facts with a lot of hysteria thrown in.

Also, it is no use to discuss grazing by horses or sheep or cattle and total land somewhere. The state land I often ride on is leased to cattle grazers. For a few weeks a year, and IIRC at a rate of 1 cow a square mile. That is because the actual area grazed is just a tiny fraction of the total land - ribbons of grass surrounded by desert the cattle won't use. I think they are there for 2 weeks and I suspect it is used to control vegetation to prevent fires.

People raise money by accusing federal managers of lying and raping and stealing without bothering to ask if there are reasons WHY the managers are doing X. I did a year with the US Forest Service in 1980. We were looking at timber sales. Cheap. Why? Overgrowth and dead wood could cause dangerous, massive fires. If we sold the good timber cheap, the company would also remove a lot of dead, worthless timber and build roads that would improve recreational access and support fighting fires.

I don't know the outcome. Moved a little while later. But someone writing about it, raising donations, might have claimed we were going to rape the land because we had sold out to "Big Timber", when in reality we were trying to prevent forest fires and getting private companies to foot the bill. I'm SOOOO glad YouTube didn't exist back then!


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## jaydee

MOD NOTE
This thread is being left open but will be watched closely
We don’t want to put a halt on these discussions because this is a very real problem that isn’t going to go away
It would be good to think that constructive comments from our members could help in some way


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## WildAbtHorses

*Individual States and Community Colleges - contact next?*

Individuals and organizations contacted about resolving America's wild horses and burros that are currently in holding pens and proposed possibly establishing dedicated credited vocational schools for each HMA:

WildHorse BLM
dbooth BLM
Wild Horses Advisors BLM
PBS’ viewers mail
Elizabeth Warren
Ben Masters from Fin & Fur Films
Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
Kamala Harris
Berrie Sanders
Trevor Noah
Best Friends
Mayor Pete Buttigieg
University of Wyoming
Colorado State University
Oregon State University
University of Nevada Rino
Jimmy Kimmel
Jimmy Fallon
WildHorse Education Advocates


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## WildAbtHorses

*BLM's October 30-31, 2019 Meeting in Washington, D.C.*

BLM Wild Horse and Burro Advisory Board Meeting July 10-11, 2019 Recommendations

https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/wildhorse_advbrd_boisemtg_brdrecs.pdf

#7.

The Advisory Board is forming a working group to include key BLM staff to analyze modern, state-of- the-art, low stress, stock-handling approaches to gathering and handling of wild horses and burros with a report to be presented at the October meeting. We recommend BLM appoint this staff and fund any meetings necessary.

If you have a suggestion(s), please make sure to let the Board know ASAP.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Heart-Wrenching - the Wild Horses' Federal Acts*

Horses are like dogs we LOVE them! Making hard decisions is never easy; that's why they are hard. Inaction is not a humane solution. Someone must think of something Americans can do.

BLM Wild Horse and Burro Advisory Board Meeting July 10-11, 2019 Recommendations
https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/wildhorse_advbrd_boisemtg_brdrecs.pdf

#8.

The BLM Advisory Board requested that the BLM and the USDA Forest Service review and update “Management of Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burros” acts where needed:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/43/part-4700

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/part-222/subpart-D


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## WildAbtHorses

*“Greater public participation” - NAP 2013 recommendation*

NAP: Using Science to Improve the BLM Wild Horse and Burro Program

The National Research Council of the National Academies, Washington, D.C. Copyright 2013
https://www.nap.edu/read/13511/chapter/1#xii

Chapters of NAP's Report to the BLM:
1. FREE-RANGING HORSES AND BURROS IN THE WESTERN UNITED STATES
2. Estimating Population Size and Growth Rates
3. Population Processes
4. Methods and Effects of Fertility Management
5. GENETIC DIVERSITY IN FREE-RANGING HORSE AND BURRO POPULATIONS
6. POPULATION MODELS AND EVALUATION OF MODELS
7. ESTABLISHING AND ADJUSTING APPROPRIATE MANAGEMENT LEVELS
8. SOCIAL CONSIDERATIONS IN MANAGING FREE-RANGING HORSES AND BURROS

"The committee encourages BLM to develop new ways to engage the public in the management of free-ranging horses and burros." - NAP 2013


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## WildAbtHorses

*Contacted the Following with "Save the Date" Oct 30, 2019*

Washington State
Colorado State
Univ. of Missouri
Montana State
Univ. of California Berkeley
Michigan State
Univ. of Montana
Univ. of Florida Gainesville
Brigham Young
Princeton Univ.

Sunni Brown - The Doodle Revolution
Robert Reich - Economics
NAS staff members


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## jaydee

A bit off track to pertinent since there are no slaughter yards in the US that would take surplus mustangs in a cull - legislation was introduced last month to ban all transport of horses leaving the US to go to slaughter houses in other countries.
I read it in a UK horse magazine but have heard nothing about it here


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## WildAbtHorses

*Fyi*

The Safeguard American Food Exports or SAFE Act would permanently ban horse slaughter in the U.S. and end the export of horses for slaughter abroad. The bill was introduced on February 4, 2019 as H.R.961 by*Reps. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) and Vern Buchanan (R-FL). 

On March 1, 2019 the bill was referred to the Subcommittee on Livestock and Foreign Agriculture by the Committee on Agriculture.

On June 27, 2019, the John Stringer Rainey SAFE Act (S.2006) was introduced in the Senate by Sen. Robert Menendez (D-NJ). Currently there are 3 co-sponsors, Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) and Sen. Susan M. Collins (R-ME).

The SAFE Act (H.R.961) has a total of 160 co-sponsors.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Freakonomics Radio - episode on horse slaughter - VERY INTERESTING*

Freakonomics’ “Trojan Horse Slaughter” by James McWilliams April 17, 2013.
Trojan Horse Slaughter - Freakonomics Freakonomics

Lots of good hard facts:

“…a niche business that profited from a product that American taxpayers financially supported (through USDA inspection of horse slaughterhouses) but were loathe to consume (plus, it’s illegal to sell horsemeat in the U.S.).*..."

The good news:

"Nearly 90 percent of U.S. horses die of natural causes or are euthanized at home."

“…for the overwhelming majority of horses. They die the way our pets die—more often than not with quiet dignity.”


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## mred

I will try to make it clear that I do not eat horse meat. I have owned horses most of my life. But it was better when we had horse slaughter is the US. Now buyers are packing them on trucks, no food or water, and mostly no stops. They mostly are taken to Mexico where they face a slow process of dying. We had laws in place for the protection of hoses being transported for slaughter. But they don't appy, as they are not transported for sale to Mexico. The bottom line is they are still being slaughtered. And people are still breeding horses in their back yards, hoping for a great baby, when most are not even good stock.
Most of the law against horse slaughter come from law makers in the east. Most never rode and took care of horses in their life. They look at them as pets(dogs) with no regard as to how big the problem has become. I talk every week or so of someone that wants to buy a pony for their kid to grow up with. They don't even know how long they will live. They think they live about 10 years, like a dog.


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## WildAbtHorses

*American needs to be EDUCATED!*

MRED you are spot-on! Why are Lindsey Graham and Susan Collins lead lawmakers on a significant west and midwest problem? Seriously why are either of them even involved in our government?

America needs to take an in-depth, realistic, and honest hard look at this problem and address it head-on. Americans must do right by our horses and be as compassionate to them during their lives and as humane as possible in their deaths.

Hard fact is that a large percentage of Americans don't even know this problem exists.


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## WildAbtHorses

*BLM meeting in D.C. October 30-31, 2019*

Americans need to attend in-person of via Livestream this October 30th and 31st.

Here is an Adobe Spark slideshow to promote BLM's October meeting:
https://spark.adobe.com/page/vs4zs5qqs1XSv/


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## WildAbtHorses

*What is the truth about the BLM?*

It seems to me that the BLM has been provided with numerous studies and reports for YEARS and they seem to have ignore them all.

YouTube james delaporte wild horse documentary 2002


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## WildAbtHorses

*The BLM Wild Horses - needs to publish & enact a REAL plan*

1. Why has the wild horses habitat decreased by 15 millions acres? Where did those 15 MILLION acres go?
2. How can the BLM keep rounding-up knowing that they do not have a viable plan for the rounded up horses? Why don't they have a viable plan? WHY don't they have a plan?!?

My impression is... that it is the BLM and their inability to think-outside-the-box and implement viable solutions, which include comprehensive RESEARCH studies and involving the public (think Global, please). Assateague and Chincoteague islands have implemented a plan that is working for their wild horses, the public, the ecosystems, and the wildlife. 

"Why the mustangs of the West are disappearing" by Jaymi Heimbuch July 20, 2017 (MNN=Mother Nature Network)

https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/a...e-west-why-this-american-icon-is-disappearing
BLM has reduced designated wild horse habitat by more than 15 million acres since 1971.
…mustang populations grow at an annual rate of 15-20 percent.
The BLM's target number for mustangs left in the wild is lower than the estimated population in 1971 when the act was passed.
Mustangs are often injured or die during or as a result of government roundups.
Most mustangs rounded up don’t get adopted, as BLM reports show.
Mustangs captured in government roundups have commonly ended up in slaughterhouses in Canada and Mexico after being sold.

Ms. Heimbuch mentions:
Using Science to Improve the BLM Wild Horse and Burro Program A Way Forward (2013)
https://www.nap.edu/catalog/13511/using-science-to-improve-the-blm-wild-horse-and-burro-program


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## bsms

WildAbtHorses said:


> 1. Why has the wild horses habitat decreased by 15 millions acres? Where did those 15 MILLION acres go?


Let me put it this way. My friend who has sheep has NEVER had a grazing allotment increased. He has had allotments disappear (after he paid full price for them) and had them reduced. Once in a while it is temporary. A fire last year has reduced his allotment this year. But the trend is always lower, and there is less federal land open to ANY grazing.

The link you provided is bogus. The core problem with it is that grazing by cattle and sheep is managed, tightly, while the mustangs are not. If cattle or sheep are overgrazing, you tell the owner to remove them. If mustangs overgraze, you...well, you don't have any options. Can't shoot them, remove them and store them, remove them and adopt them out - the numbers just don't work.

And stock ponds built by ranchers for their cattle for a couple of months grazing provide water for wildlife - including mustangs - year round.

BTW - Arizona has an excess of 7,000 burros. How many burros get adopted?

From Wiki:

" In the 1950s, Velma B. Johnston, who became known as "Wild Horse Annie", led the push for federal protection of the horses and burros. By 1958, there were *14,810 to 29,620* free-roaming horses remaining in the 11 western states. A year later, the first federal feral horse protection law was passed. This statute, popularly known as the "Wild Horse Annie Act", prohibited the use of aircraft or motor vehicles for hunting "wild, unbranded" horses or polluting water sources....

As of 2018, the current total maximum AML for both horses and burros is 26,715, down from 30,158 in 1986...From 1971 through 2001, the BLM removed 193,000 horses and burros from the federal rangelands, but still could not maintain the populations at AML...

The report stated that at the end of 2017, there was an estimated 83,000 wild horses and burros, or three times AML, on public lands. Congress has yet to act on the information."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-roaming_horse_management_in_North_America

Over the last 30 years, the allowance for mustangs has gone down 11%. I suspect their range carrying capacity has gone down more since there are now 90,000 horses out there.

My suggestion? Sell the horse herd to private owners who would then manage them as they see fit. Will it happen? Not a chance! Our political system is too broken to handle anything any more. I'll repeat this for emphasis on how well politics manages horses:

"*By 1958, there were 14,810 to 29,620 free-roaming horses remaining in the 11 western states. A year later, the first federal feral horse protection law was passed.*"

There are now 90,000. So much for the government making things better.


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## WildAbtHorses

*bsms thank you*

I value your posts. To me, it is BLM's mismanagement of public land and programs. There should be enough open public land for all activities, that is if it is well managed.

- - - 

What we have done to the wild horses and burros is devastating. What should be a beautiful tribute to our countries heritage has ended-up being a mismanaged, underfunded, and botched program. That has lead to inexcusable cruelty to our horses and burros. All of our own doing. It is horrific.

I realize that the October's meeting is with the Advisory Board and not with the BLM. Casey Hammond, the acting BLM director, did attend July's meeting (FYI I cannot find him via Google searches).


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## WildAbtHorses

*Contacted some more folks with "Save the Date"*

Temple Gradin
Clare / Skydog Sanctuary
American Wild Horses Campaign
Freakoconomics
Dubner and Levitt
Friends of the Mustangs
Fox News
President Trump
Peaceful Uprising
Tim DeChristopher

and provided the short Adobe Spark presentation:
https://spark.adobe.com/page/vs4zs5qqs1XSv/

I am open to suggestions. We really need to agree on a solution and implement it. ASAP


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## WildAbtHorses

*Training Mustangs!*

One talk and one training session with Sean Davis and Graeme. All about MUSTANGS!!!
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/sean-davis-live-youtube-6pm-colorado-806211/

So good!!!

"We" need to get Sean Davis a contractor to work on his HOUSE projects so he can focus on MUSTANGs.

It would be great to have him sort through and assess the 50,000 in pens so "we" can get as many to good homes as soon as possible.


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## SilverMaple

1. _Why has the wild horses habitat decreased by 15 millions acres? Where did those 15 MILLION acres go?_ -- increasing pressure on public lands for gas/oil/coal (the companies demand horses be removed) as well as excessive drought have reduced or eliminated a lot of the area that previously supported horses. Additionally, human growth encroaching on these areas is also a factor. Gas/oil companies funnel huge amounts of money into the government and people in government positions' pockets. That has a large impact on what land is available for use and whether anyone is allowed on it--- hiker, rancher, or wild horse. A large amount of the pressure on the horses is due to oil/gas companies, but it's usually blamed on the 'greedy ranchers' as the scapegoat, even though many, if not most, of the ranchers don't want the horses entirely removed even if the horses are destroying fencing and water and rangeland. Drought has also played a big role in this--- areas that supported horses in the past have now been so affected by drought and/or overgrazing by the horses themselves that they no longer are considered viable wild horse habitat. 

2. _How can the BLM keep rounding-up knowing that they do not have a viable plan for the rounded up horses? Why don't they have a viable plan? WHY don't they have a plan?!? _ This is a hugely complicated issue, and it goes much, much deeper than simply 'mismanaged by the BLM'. In many cases, their hands are tied. It's a snarl of bureaucratic red tape, special interest groups, environmentalists, ranchers, do-gooders who don't have the whole story, and horse lovers who are all about 'saving the mustang' but also can't come up with a viable solution to the problem compounded with climate change and record drought in much of the horses' habitats--- and when water is short, native species get first dibs. Mustangs are not 'native species' and thus aren't a priority. So it's still demanded they be removed, but any outlet as to what to do with them is virtually dry--- they aren't being adopted in large-enough numbers to make much difference, they can't be legally sold to slaughter, nor can the budget afford to house, feed, and care for them. It's a lose-lose situation for the BLM and the horses, both. When the land can't support horses and native species and occasionally grazing that ranchers have PAID FOR, the horses need to be taken off. Leaving them on will result in starving/dying horses, land that is destroyed for generations, and land that isn't usable for any function of public use. Wild horses are a perfect storm of an adaptable species that continue to increase exponentially each year even among a land area with ever-diminishing grazing and little or no water due to drought. There ARE no good answers. 

The two biggest issues resulting in a decrease in mustang adoptions:

- lack of people with the knowledge to safely train a mustang and produce a decent result from it, and/or the lack of 'qualifying facilities'. With more land lost to development, more people being priced out of horses, and the younger generations lack of interest in horses, this isn't going to improve any time soon.

- lack of quality among the mustangs themselves, leading to people who WOULD like to adopt/train one to instead spend their limited time/money on a horse with a market value. In most cases, a mustang of any type, no matter how well-trained or good-looking, is worth next to nothing no matter how trained he is. If you want a horse for your personal use, fine. But most people who do this train up one horse and then ride him for 15 years.... that's one horse they remove from the gathered mustangs every 15 years. Trainers can train/sell many more horses, but if nobody is willing to buy them for enough money to justify the cost of that training, it's not worth it. Even private individuals often weigh the risk/reward and find that buying a 2 y.o. registered Quarter Horse makes a lot more sense than a 2 y.o. mustang. They know generally that they will have a usable horse when they're done, and if they should ever want or need to sell, they have a better chance of finding a home for the horse.

There's been a nice, finished mustang for sale here for $3,000 for nearly a year. He's attractive and seems like a pretty nice horse, but absolutely nobody is interested in him at that price. Had he been a Paint or Morgan or Quarter Horse instead, he'd have sold within days. His owner will either have to take him to a sale where he's likely to end up on the kill truck or sold for $450 to whoever has the cash, or just keep him.


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## bsms

BLM leases for oil drilling have gone down by a third between 2004 & 2014. Leases for oil are almost zero in Nevada, where half of the mustangs are:










Natural gas in Nevada versus some other states:










Oil and gas in Nevada, where most of the mustangs are, is near zero. Data from here:

https://ballotpedia.org/Oil_and_gas_extraction_on_federal_land_in_Nevada

FWIW, my Mom inherited some land in Texas that was leased for oil and gas for 30 years...and never actually drilled. In the end, the land was sold to a nearby rancher for pennies so he would pay the taxes on it. Had anything been grazing there, they could have grazed the entire time of the lease without a problem.

If you run 3-4 times the number of sustainable animals on land, the land gets beat down and the number of animals it can sustain goes down. Cattle, sheep, deer, mustangs - if you overgraze, the land's capacity goes down. And mustangs have been overgrazing for decades.


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## bsms

"According to the KUNR Public Radio, Nevada’s current wild horse population is more than 43,000 horses, which is “60 percent of all the wild horses roaming the West” and “nearly quadruple the 12,800 equids the Bureau of Land Management” (BLM) believes the Sagebrush State can sustain." 

https://www.gohunt.com/read/news/nevadas-wild-horse-population-hits-all-time-high#gs.sdqsqk

"Gloeckner’s family has owned this ranch about two hours south of Ely since the 1800's. Gloeckner says she loves horses, but over the past decade, the wild horse population in the “herd management area,” or HMA, where she leases federal land, has ballooned to nearly 2,000. That’s far more than the 200 horses the Bureau of Land Management says that land can sustain. And unlike cattle and sheep, horses graze on the land every day of the year....

...BLM rules dictate which months ranchers may turn out livestock on public lands and what percentage of the forage the livestock can eat. That means if wild horses have already grazed down the forage before a rancher’s permit season begins, the ranchers cannot release their livestock onto the land...

Nevada’s wild horse population has exploded to an all-time high of more than 43,000 horses. That’s 60 percent of all the wild horses roaming the West — and it’s nearly quadruple the 12,800 equids the Bureau of Land Management says that Nevada’s land can sustain." - *22 July 2019*

https://www.kunr.org/post/nevada-wild-horse-population-skyrockets-new-high#stream/0

"Nationwide, the BLM currently authorizes 8.6 million animal unit monthly (AUMs) to ranchers to graze livestock on 150 million acres of BLM public lands. This is fewer than half of the 18 million AUMs issued in the 1950s. In comparison, there are approximately 75,000 wild horses, three times the Appropriate Management Level, effectively utilizing 900,000 AUMs on the 31.2 million acres designated for wild horses.

In 2013, the most recent year I could acquire forage allocation data, the BLM gave out nearly 1.1 million livestock AUMs to ranchers in the Herd Management Areas that were shared with wild horses. Since then, some of those livestock AUMs were decreased due to lack of forage, resulting in the nationwide ratio of wild horse AUMs to livestock AUMs to be about 1:1. This ratio can and does change due to rescinded cattle and livestock permits during drought, rising horse populations, and livestock AUMs reduced due to forage competition by wild horse. In some Herd Management Areas, there is still forage to take away from livestock operators to give to horses. In other areas, especially where horses are up to 10 times over appropriate management level, all or most of the forage has already been taken away from livestock permit holders. Bison, the undisputed native large herbivore in North America, are nonexistent on these same lands." - a few years old, but things have only become worse. Written by Ben Masters, hardly a mustang hater

Feral Horses - The Effects of Doing Nothing - Nevada Agricultural Experiment Station, University of Nevada, Reno

Is it any wonder the land is being beaten down? Not by ranchers and not by oil companies - certainly not in Nevada - but by MUSTANGS.* And by public pressure to NOT manage the mustangs!*


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*What a mess we've gotten ourselves into!*

SilverMaple thank you. What a concise and honest write-up. Very helpful. It makes me sad, but if we don't face the harsh reality of the problem, we can't expect to solve it.

First, our public lands... I'm not sure if any of my comments are worth writing they all felt like angry ramblings from a very frustrated citizen. So, no comment.

Second, we have to accept the fact that America will have "pen" about 100,000 wild horses and burros and will have them "pen" for 25+ years.

Third, if we do not stabilize the wild populations without creating inbreeding or extinction, both the number in "pens" and the years will increase.

I've just read bsms' recent posts. bsms thanks again for the helpful information. My heart keeps breaking over this situation, and I feel so helpless on my laptop in my little room on the east coast. As for your mother's Texas land, I'm sure that still stings big time! Buffaloes. Sigh.


----------



## Celeste

I am going to say what I say and then immediately unsubscribe from this thread. I don't want to get emotional.

Spaying mares as proposed by the BLM is terribly inhumane. Nobody wants parts cut out of them while they are awake. If this were done humanely with anesthesia and post op pain meds, it would not be any more inhumane than fixing your dog. 

Why not spay and geld all those horses in holding and turn them out? Continue to feed and water them as they are now half domesticated. It would cost a lot less to keep them this way.

*Spaying and gelding needs to be done by licensed veterinarians with proper anesthesia*. It is very economical in the long run. 

There will be the excuse that there are not enough large animal veterinarians to do the work. 

As a veterinarian, I think that the idea that there are no veterinarians willing to do large animal medicine is insane. It is just that nobody is willing to pay the salary that we can make doing small animal medicine. We have to feed our families. We have 8 - 10 years of college, and most of us think that we should make at least what a plumber does. 

This rubbish about using techs and no anesthesia is an insult to the horse, to the American population's intelligence, and the universe itself. 

Pay the money. *Use modern, humane techniques to spay and geld those animals*. Select the best to leave intact. The problem will be solved.


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## pasomountain

Celeste said:


> I am going to say what I say and then immediately unsubscribe from this thread. I don't want to get emotional.
> 
> Spaying mares as proposed by the BLM is terribly inhumane. Nobody wants parts cut out of them while they are awake. If this were done humanely with anesthesia and post op pain meds, it would not be any more inhumane than fixing your dog.
> 
> Why not spay and geld all those horses in holding and turn them out? Continue to feed and water them as they are now half domesticated. It would cost a lot less to keep them this way.
> 
> *Spaying and gelding needs to be done by licensed veterinarians with proper anesthesia*. It is very economical in the long run.
> 
> There will be the excuse that there are not enough large animal veterinarians to do the work.
> 
> As a veterinarian, I think that the idea that there are no veterinarians willing to do large animal medicine is insane. It is just that nobody is willing to pay the salary that we can make doing small animal medicine. We have to feed our families. We have 8 - 10 years of college, and most of us think that we should make at least what a plumber does.
> 
> This rubbish about using techs and no anesthesia is an insult to the horse, to the American population's intelligence, and the universe itself.
> 
> Pay the money. *Use modern, humane techniques to spay and geld those animals*. Select the best to leave intact. The problem will be solved.



I agree with you one hundred percent. This is absolutely the best option for long term management--case closed.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Celeste said:


> Why not spay and geld all those horses in holding and turn them out?.


The land is already overpopulated with horses and can't handle what's on there now but turn out the 50,000 head in holding?
That's not good land management.

Plus the BLM has no real idea how many horses are out there. There's more than say. I've been in some very remote areas of NV. Places BLM said there are not horses and there's hundreds. You can hit them with your pick up driving down the two track. And we had to keep our horses in the corrals rather than on the meadow in the wrangle field to keep the mustangs from harassing them.


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## pasomountain

Lab grown meat could make this whole discussion unnecessary--

https://www.businessinsider.com/beef-companies-file-petition-against-lab-grown-meat-startups-2018-2


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## COWCHICK77

Very short answer. No it wouldn't.

You think getting rid of livestock on public ground is the solutiin but it doesn't solve the breeding and overpopulation.
The horses breed faster than than the amount of livestock on public ground.
Livestock isn't the problem, their numbers are controlled.


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## bsms

Cattle and sheep graze on SURPLUS vegetation during summer (primarily). There are some areas with winter permits. But privately owned animals are CONTROLLED and LIMITED to prevent overgrazing.

Mustangs are not controlled. Not managed. And they can increase at 20%/year. In the late 50s, when the first law protecting mustangs was passed, the number of mustangs was BELOW the number the BLM says is sustainable NOW. But since mustangs are not owned by anyone, and since they can live uncontrolled 12 months a year, there are now 3-4 times as many as the land can sustain.

The only solution I see is for the mustang activists to be defeated and management of wild horses start. That is part of why I post on these threads. I want to point out the REAL problem, which is not cattle grazing and not energy exploration in South Dakota.

Heck, let's have an experiment. Let NEVADA take over management of all the wild horses in Nevada (60% of the total nationwide) and see what happens.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Spaying and gelding needs to be done by licensed veterinarians with proper anesthesia*

YES, YES, YES!!! OMG I had NO idea thank you Celeste.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*1987, 2019 - same story? but worse.*

Dayton O. Hyde’s ”All the Wild Horses: Preserving the Spirit and Beauty of the World's Wild Horses.” (book and documentary)

"I [Hyde] was in northern Nevada back in 1987 buying feeder cattle to stock my ranch in Oregon, when I passed a government wild-horse holding facility in Lovelock. The corrals were packed with unhappy mustangs standing in boredom-gaunt ribbed, heads hanging in sleepy stupor, lips drooping, eyes half closed against swarms of flies."

12,000-acre Black Hills Wild Horse Sanctuary in South Dakota, where more than 500 mustangs now run free


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## WildAbtHorses

*Nevada*

bsms I liked your post until your last statement. I think the majority of folks (including me) are going to have to get to that point taking baby-steps. But not another 30+ years on inaction.

If each horse (wild or domestic) requires a minimum of 3 acres. These two parcels in Nevada could hold 1,800 horses? Uhm... still not enough land but it's a start?

NV Farms And Ranches For Sale:
Elko, Elko County - 2,971.51 Acres
Lovelock, Pershing County - 2,300 Acres


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## WildAbtHorses

*Boarder Lands (Mexico/US and Canada/US) Wild Horses Sanctuaries?*

GPS chip each horse and track them to make sure they are not poached. Just a suggestion.


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## COWCHICK77

WildAbtHorses said:


> bsms I liked your post until your last statement. I think the majority of folks (including me) are going to have to get to that point taking baby-steps. But not another 30+ years on inaction.
> 
> If each horse (wild or domestic) requires a minimum of 3 acres. These two parcels in Nevada could hold 1,800 horses? Uhm... still not enough land but it's a start?
> 
> NV Farms And Ranches For Sale:
> Elko, Elko County - 2,971.51 Acres
> Lovelock, Pershing County - 2,300 Acres


Here in Nevada, it takes more than 3 acres to run one horse or a cow/calf pair. It can take up to 20 acres and that will not sustain for the whole year without destroying the grasses. Hence why rotational grazing is a common practice here and why cattle grazing on public land permits are limited to head days.

Madeline Pickens bought a ranch outside of our town, thought she could run a pile of mustangs. On her private, deeded ground, it looks like an arena because of too many horses in a small area. She has to feed hay through the winter. 

Unfortunately, most people don't understand Nevada's unique range and what it takes to maintain it. They see the amount of acreage that is public land. 85% of Nevada's land is government owned and think we have a lot of grass and room for horses. 
It's not that simple.


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## bsms

WildAbtHorses said:


> bsms I liked your post until your last statement. I think the majority of folks (including me) are going to have to get to that point taking baby-steps. But not another 30+ years on inaction.
> 
> If each horse (wild or domestic) requires a minimum of 3 acres...


The problem is the steps the mustangs activists want will not solve the problem. Expand the total number of acres available to the wild horses and in a few years there will be 200,000 horses on land that can carry 60,000. And I suspect a big part of the problem is that most of the activists are utterly ignorant of range management and of conditions in Nevada.

My 3 horses live in a 0.25 acre corral. That is fine for THREE horses. Not so good if you have 1,200 horses held in one place and never ridden.

Suppose you buy a bunch of ranches and turn them into mustang retirement homes. The horses left on the range will continue to grow until the range is overwhelmed. If you wanted predators capable of controlling horse herds, you'd need wolves. Tens of thousands of wolves. And wolves roam. Miles. They also kill like any other predator - any way they can. Nothing humane about it.

*What is the point? What do mustang activists REALLY want?* In the 1950s, we had around 20,000 mustangs. We now have 90,000 and activist claim mustangs are threatened! How big can horse herds grow? In the 1840s, the future President Grant saw a herd in Texas:

"_A few days out from Corpus Christi, the immense herd of wild horses that ranged at that time between the Nueces and the Rio Grande was seen directly in advance of the head of the column and but a few miles off. It was the very band from which the horse I was riding had been captured but a few weeks before. The column was halted for a rest, and a number of officers, myself among them, rode out two or three miles to the right to see the extent of the herd.

The country was a rolling prairie, and, from the higher ground, the vision was obstructed only by the earth’s curvature. As far as the eye could reach to our right, the herd extended. To the left, it extended equally. There was no estimating the number of animals in it; I have no idea that they could all have been corralled in the State of Rhode Island, or Delaware, at one time. If they had been, they would have been so thick that the pasturage would have given out the first day. People who saw the Southern herd of buffalo, fifteen or twenty years ago, can appreciate the size of the Texas band of wild horses in 1846._"

Even in the 1800s, when horses were getting established from horses who got loose in the 1700s, the potential for growth was unimaginable - and that was when predators roamed everywhere freely!

Any room or amount of feed you can come up with, horses can expand beyond it. And we don't have a market for horses. It can be tough finding a good home for a 15 year old well broke papered horse, let alone a 7 year old mustang off the range.

I appreciate your passion, but passion cannot stop horse herds from outgrowing whatever land they have available. So...we need to control them. That ultimately and inescapably means using artificial methods to limit their numbers. And getting rid of the current excess.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Large Parcels of Land for Sale in United States*

Thanks CowChick77... this situation just doesn't seem to have a solution. My poor heart just keeps breaking.

Ranches for sale in...

Wyoming: 50,000 acres; 69,550 acres; 98,424 acres
Oregon: 52,475 acres
Arizona: 58,561 acres; 95,424 acres
Montana: 126,000 acres

https://www.land.com/buying/landscape/10-biggest-ranches-for-sale-in-america/


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## mred

These are wild mustangs. Not dogs or cats. If something is not done, we will have land that will not recover from the over population and more sick and starving horses. Let the states take over more of the land management. We must find a way to dispose, yes dispose, of the horses in holding pens. It is interesting that no one wants to shoot a dog, but have no problem with shooting a wolf. If we put down all of the horses in the holding pens, How much time and money will it take and WHERE are we going to bury them. If the ones in holding pens can be sold for meat, let it happen. 
We can't agree. I love my horses and I have had horses most of my life. Most of them are getting older and when it comes time, I hope that I can do the right thing and have them put to rest and bury them where they have lived all of their life. Keeping these wild mustangs in pens for this long is not the way you treat any animal.


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## WildAbtHorses

*bsms "The Voice of Poseidon" -- the voice of reason*

I didn't know Poseidon was the god of horses. Wiki: Poseidon, in Greek religion, god of the sea (and of water generally), earthquakes, and horses

Again, you are right there is so much to consider. Feed, care (farriers), not being ridden, and birth control. Kevin Richardson, the lion whisper, gives his lions birth control.

Could we setup large intercity stables? Does Detroit still have large parcels of land available?

If there weren't laws against... how do you market & sell horse meat to the public? just zoos? where do zoos get their meat now?


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## bsms

Arizona has a burro problem:










https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ngress-to-take-action/?utm_term=.9a211d41330d​
It is three years out of date and we now have a 7,000 burro surplus. I'd kind of like to try owning a burro someday. Don't know how well they mix with horses. And they can live for 30-40 years, and I'm in my 60s. But...what to do? Good article to read for fun here:

https://www.denverpost.com/2008/11/06/donkeys-now-considered-intelligent-and-loyal-pets/

FWIW, Bandit exhibits all the caution they attribute to donkeys. EVERYTHING is suspicious and Bandit plans to live a LONG time! I've heard mustangs are often like that. But the market for BLM burros? I don't know. Arizona has almost no wild horse problem, just a burro problem. And I really wish I had a good answer. It is heartbreaking!


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## pasomountain

COWCHICK77 said:


> Very short answer. No it wouldn't.
> 
> You think getting rid of livestock on public ground is the solutiin but it doesn't solve the breeding and overpopulation.
> The horses breed faster than than the amount of livestock on public ground.
> Livestock isn't the problem, their numbers are controlled.


Actually I was thinking the lab meat in conjuction with what Celeste said about spaying/neutering the wild horses. So YES it would end these discussions because horses would be managed in a humane way and not nearly as many cattle/sheep would be needed.


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## Knave

Obviously there are people who will fight to the end for the wild horses without quite understanding how everything is interconnected. Lab raised meat isn’t actually made of chemicals, so if it became an actual standard more land would be required for farming. Cattle, managed well, benefit the environment. Farming (which we actually also do) is harder on the land. 

The horses damage the land. If completely unmanaged they will die eventually from starvation or lack of water, but they will take the land with them. It would take so long for it to recover... Kicking the ranchers off only makes it worse for the horses. I have explained before that we are who takes care of the water. (Most places are watered from troughs in Nevada. Large areas of land have no natural water in summertime. We take care of the water. We salt the animals.)

Anyways, I have a solution. Take the horses down to the manageable numbers in Nevada and manage them from now on to stay with those numbers using gelding or spaying or whatever means are necessary. All of the excess horses move to other states. Move them around the country and make the issue of wild horses become something personal to everyone, not just something imagined.


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## SilverMaple

A nearby small farming community had a few people who had a bunch of cats left to breed willy-nilly and it wasn't long before most of the town was overrun with feral cats. Some people fed them. Some people shot them. Some people took in pretty or friendly ones as pets. The cats continued to multiply past the number of homes available for them. A group of citizens raised money and caught as many cats as they could and spayed/neutered them. The cat population continued to grow. Songbird populations were wiped out. Cats were pooping everywhere and peeing on anything they could find. Sections of town reeked of cat spray. Every time someone suggested 'eliminating' the cats, cat lovers had a melt down. "Oh no, we can't let anything happen to the cats!" and so on and so forth. It really ripped the town apart between the cat people who were feeding and supporting the feral population, and those who wanted them gone.


Then last winter, most of the cats disappeared. It was a hard winter. Some didn't make it due to multiple nights with wind chill temps of -70 degrees F. Rumors that a group of teens were paid a bounty by a couple of local citizens for every cat carcass they produced abounded. People who previously did not like the cats were feeding them, then the cats were gone, so draw your own conclusions. Whatever happened, nearly every one of those feral cats is now gone, and even the cat lovers are relieved to no longer be over-run...and cats are much easier to rehome and cheaper to care for than wild horses. 



There IS no good solution for situations like this, whether exploding feral cat populations or wild horses. There are simply TOO MANY ANIMALS and not enough people to provide them homes. The animals on the ranges and in the sorting pens need to be culled--- remove the least desirable for euthanasia or slaughter. Is it pleasant to think about? No. But it needs to be done, for the good of the land, the horses themselves, and the agencies caring for them. Once the number is down to a manageable level, it will be much easier to maintain. Animals over a certain age, or those who are injured or struggling should be removed and destroyed. A quick death by bullet is better than starving to death. Adopt out the adoptable horses, but leave some of those on the range to produce more adoptable horses. Remove the horses that nobody wants so they aren't producing more horses that nobody wants. There IS no other option. The horses simply reproduce too rapidly for gelding/spaying/birth control options to be effective or feasible in large numbers.


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## Filou

Look at oatman as a model for what to do with burros, tourism!


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## bsms

"Oatman has undergone a tourism renaissance of sorts in recent years, thanks to burgeoning worldwide interest in Route 66 and the explosive growth of the nearby gaming town of Laughlin, Nevada, which promotes visits to the town. Oatman's most famous attractions are its wild burros, which freely roam the town streets and can be hand-fed hay cubes otherwise known as "burro chow," readily available in practically every store in town. Though normally gentle, the burros are in fact wild and signs posted throughout Oatman advise visitors to exercise caution. The burros are descended from pack animals turned loose by early prospectors, and are protected by the U.S. Department of the Interior."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oatman,_Arizona










The "town" has a population of 128. Not sure this is a solution to anything, let alone 7,000 excess burros.


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## 4horses

Did anyone see today's news?

President Trump’s pick for managing federal lands doesn’t think the federal government should have any.

In the three decades since serving under Reagan, Pendley has sued the Interior Department on behalf of an oil and gas prospector, sought to undermine protections of endangered species such as the grizzly bear, and pressed to radically reduce the size of federal lands to make way for development.

“The Founding Fathers intended all lands owned by the federal government to be sold,” he wrote approvingly in a National Review magazine article in 2016. He said “westerners know that only getting title to much of the land in the West will bring real change.”

It is a valid concern that the government is continuing to round up wild horses without doing anything with the horses they currently have. It is like hoarding. Eventually the government will have so many in holding pens, they will be forced to cull. It's unsustainable. It is also unacceptable because we have the ability to spay/geld or treat with PZP and release. 

Simply sending excess horses to be culled will not work because wild horses reproduce. You absolutely have to implement fertility control to see herd stabilization. Otherwise you will need to continuously round up and cull. Nobody wants to see that. I really think they need to focus on foal adoptions. That's been highly successful for managing the Chincoteague ponies. 

I really wish they would teach the helicopter operators not to run wild horses to death or into barb wire fencing. It seems to be a common problem with roundups.


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## WildAbtHorses

*William Perry Pendley ?*

William Perry Pendley...

In Warriors for the West: Fighting Bureaucrats, Radical Groups, and Liberal Judges on America's Frontier, Mr. Pendley puts human faces on Westerners' historic and often precedent-setting fights against environmental laws, ...

Born and raised in Cheyenne, Wyoming, he received B.A. and M.A. degrees in Economics and Political Science from George Washington University in Washington, D.C. He was a captain in the United States Marine Corps, after which he received his J.D. from the University of Wyoming College of Law...

https://prfamerica.org/biography/Biography-Pendley-William-Perry.html


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## WildAbtHorses

*When you think it can't get any worst.*

This morning I was happy for about 5 minutes.

I loved the donkey's in Oatman, AZ (except for the 6:1 ratio of donkeys to humans). There are videos about Oatman & Burros, 2009, 2016, 2019. They are sooooo cute, but the situation does sound like that feral cat story, except they are bringing tourism to the old-time mining town. And 5,000 animals that weigh upto 1,000 pounds each is a bit different than hundreds of 10 pound cats.


William Perry Pendley?!?


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## WildAbtHorses

*The New Wars for the West speech by William Perry Pendley*

https://prfamerica.org/speeches/11th/NewWarsForTheWest.html

Excerpts from Pendley's Wars for the West:

"I want to quickly go over some of the things we are doing and it is sort of a shotgun scattered thing."

"The Endangered Species Act continues to be a very serious problem."

"... they found this thing called the Preble's meadow jumping mouse, a weird little thing. You really can't tell what it is until you kill it, and then you open up its little head and you say, that was one."

"The environmental whackos say..."

"We talk a lot about property in the West because there is so much federal land."

"And a couple of whacko judges at the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals said, "Yeah, that makes sense to us. They care." Like the Oprah Show, you know. And so, fortunately, the Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals recently reversed that and said environmental groups do not have standing to jump into those cases."


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## bsms

I agree with some of the views expressed by Pendley here. Don't know much about him, but we have states where the majority of land is owned by the federal government. I like public lands. But I'm not convinced the US government is the right level of government to own 38% of Arizona, 61% of Idaho, 65% of Utah or 85% of Nevada. Why should the large populations in California or east of the Mississippi have as much right to determine what happens in Nevada as the people living in Nevada (or Utah, or Arizona) do? 60% of the mustangs are in Nevada. Why should people in Florida have the same vote in dealing with them that Nevadans do?

The Endangered Species Act is regularly abused by people who never set foot in the state involved in a dispute. A group in New York can tie up something in Utah for years. I was a biology major at Utah State. I spent time working for the US Forest Service and the Division of Wildlife Resources before I got tired of seasonal jobs. My wife & grandkids and I went hiking yesterday in Sedona:








I love the outdoors, but I don't assume "environmental groups" know or care about the real outdoors. Too many people with no skin in the game, let alone knowledge of local issues, determine how land they never see is managed. And too often, it is managed based on fantasies about the environment. Unicorns instead of mustangs.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Public Lands - Federal vs. State & owned vs. control of*

Do we agree that the land should remain public? and preserved for future generations?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Mustang Video Catalog with 193 horse*

Mustang Heritage Foundation Sat Aug 3, 2019
Video Catalog

I think they all look so beautiful but I watch a YouTuber review them and talked about the pros and cons of each. Harsh realities.

Should mustangs only be “Wild” in privately owned sanctuaries where they can be cared for and their populations monitored closely?

Should they be removed from Government owned lands?


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## COWCHICK77

pasomountain said:


> Actually I was thinking the lab meat in conjuction with what Celeste said about spaying/neutering the wild horses. So YES it would end these discussions because horses would be managed in a humane way and not nearly as many cattle/sheep would be needed.


I'm for spaying and gelding. But the extremists are against it saying it messes with herd dynamics.

Again, livestock numbers are controlled. Diversity in grazing animals like horses, cattle, sheep and wildlife can help preserve the grasses. Turning all government ground into feral horse grazing is not the way manage range. 

As far as "fake meat", I disagree. 
Plant-based fake meat is soy or pea based from my understanding. Even fast food restaurants like Arbys, Taco Bell and Chipotle don't want anything to do with it. It is highly processed. It seems the only people really interested in fake meat are the PETA groups.
Soy is GMO and there is a big backlash lately against GMO crops. So good luck selling it.
Pea protein seems to be in shortage for the commercial use of fake meat. Producing pea protein needs farmland. So do you give up the land for cattle for farming peas to produce meat?

Cell-based fake meat is years behind plant-based 'meat' in development and expensive. Also are people going to get past the stigma of " fake, lab-raised meat"? 
Much like getting Americans past the thought of eating horse or dog.


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## COWCHICK77

If I remember right depending on interpretation of the Constitution, the federal government isn't supposed to own land.(besides D.C.) once a territory becomes a state, the land is turned over to the state to manage.
I dont think it means selling federal land to private buyers. 

I completely agree with @bsms, people back east should have no say in how we manage our land in Nevada. It should be managed by the state. It's bad enough we have Reno and Las Vegas controlling us in the rural areas.


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## WildAbtHorses

https://www.nps.gov/index.htm
National Parks - on the United States map they look evenly distributed across the states.

Umm.. I understand why you (or any citizen) wouldn’t want Federal intervention... historical Valley Forge started out as a State and is now a National Park and is currently under threat of loosing some land to a highway expansion.

https://www.npca.org/advocacy/48-do...MI257Tv73i4wIVxp6zCh22eAqSEAAYASAAEgKS7fD_BwE

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_Forge_National_Historical_Park


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## WildAbtHorses

*BLM vs. National Parks*

https://www.doi.gov/blog/americas-public-lands-explained

I’m learning tons. Thanks!


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## bsms

If land was transferred, I suspect it would only be BLM land. Don't see the Forest Service or Parks changing hands. The feds would probably put strings on it - no sales of land to private owners above X%/year for XXX years. If it was transferred to Arizona, I support restrictions since Arizona state land is managed more with an eye to profit to the state than multiple use. Make any transfers be negotiated on a state by state basis. The deal with Arizona (38%) probably ought to differ from a deal with Nevada (85%).

But I honestly do not see Congress - even if Republicans controlled both houses - agreeing to a large scale transfer. Pity because people who have never SEEN Arizona don't need to control how we manage land. They just don't have a clue. I just drove today (vacation) from Sedona to Pinetop. I suspect a lot of folks in the east cannot even IMAGINE a town like Holbrook Arizona. Or the land around it.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Interesting BLM vs. Forest vs. Parks (not sure the % breakdown)*

General Comment: I remember when "they" wanted to build a shopping mall on the historical Gettysburg's battlefield. Now, shopping malls are disappearing. Thank goodness, "they" saved Gettysburg.

The bad news: "More than 85% of Nevada’s land area is owned and administered by the federal government." NV Counsel
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/heres-how-land-is-used-by-the-federal-government-in-nevada/
https://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division/Research/Publications/PandPReport/35-PLGNR.pdf

The kinda good news: "Payments in lieu of Taxes Summary." BLM pays taxes on the land to NV?
https://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division/Research/Publications/Factsheets/PILT.pdf

What if Wild Horses and Burros (donkeys) were treated and managed similar to the American Bison (Buffalo)?

From the YouTube videos I've watched... the Wild Horses that have found good homes seem very happy.

FYI All American's appreciate & love the American West. A person doesn't have to live in a place to be in awe of it. Ex: Hawaii


----------



## boots

If the horses and burros were managed like bison, the horses and burros would be eliminated when they wandered onto private land. 

I don't think that is desirable, and I want relief for the lands and wildlife that are being over-pressured by the horses and burros.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Lab Meat, Pea Protein, and Livestock*

All very interesting but I don't think that either lab meat or pea protein will impact livestock meat production for X (?) years. Growing peas is impacting soybean production.

Lab Meat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat

Cultured meat is meat produced by in vitro cultivation of animal cells, instead of from slaughtered animals. It is a form of cellular agriculture. Cultured meat is produced using many of the same tissue engineering techniques traditionally used in regenerative medicine. 

Pea Protein
https://www.marketplace.org/2019/05/01/behold-humble-pea-rising-demand-plant-protein-feeds-growth/
A 2-square-mile farm - plants 48,000 pounds of yellow field pea seeds - and harvest ? (the article didn’t mention the harvest yield)

"But the pea protein market is still pretty small compared to soybeans"
https://www.nuzest-usa.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-pea-protein

I do enjoy Beyond Meat’s “hamburgers.” NASDAQ: BYND 5/3/19 $66.79 7/26/19 $234.90.
https://www.beyondmeat.com


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Wild Horses & Burros Estimates by State - BLM*










https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/about/data/population-estimates

https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/2019_Final_HAHMA_Stats_05022019_final_508.pdf


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## WildAbtHorses

*Need Solution to Wild Horse & Burro Overpopulation*

AML 26,690 healthy level
3/2019 87,885 estimate level
2018 81,951 estimate level

Plus the 50,000 currently in holding pens.

And yes Nevada has the largest population of both wild horses & burros because the Federal Gov't owns 85% of Nevada.

Fake HLN "Federal Government transfers 85% of Nevada to Arizona"

Hey, Nevada you are now Arizona! So what's Arizona solution for the excess Wild Horses & Burros?


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## WildAbtHorses

Excess Horses & Burros Estimates by States:
Nevada 40,000
California 10,000
Arizona 6,000
Wyoming 4,000
Utah 3,000
Oregon 2,500
New Mexico 200
Idaho 100
Montana 40

17 Holding Centers with 20 to 1,000 Capacity:
1 Reno, Nevada
2 Carson City, Nevada
3 Litchfield, California
4 Ridgecrest, California
5 Redlands, California
6 Florence, Arizona
7 Riverton, Wyoming
8 Rock Springs, Wyoming
9 Wheatland, Wyoming
10 Delta, Utah
11 Hines, Oregon
12 Boise, Idaho
13 Canon City, Colorado
14 Elm Creek, Nebraska
15 Hutchinson, Kansas
16 Pauls Valley, Oklahoma
17 Ewing, Illinois

Not sure where the 50,000 are located.
The above 17 centers could possible account for 20,000 but where are the other 30,000?
What do these horses need? What do these centers need? Do they have YouTube Channels?


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## pasomountain

Knave said:


> Obviously there are people who will fight to the end for the wild horses without quite understanding how everything is interconnected. Lab raised meat isn’t actually made of chemicals, so if it became an actual standard more land would be required for farming. Cattle, managed well, benefit the environment. Farming (which we actually also do) is harder on the land.
> 
> The horses damage the land. If completely unmanaged they will die eventually from starvation or lack of water, but they will take the land with them. It would take so long for it to recover... Kicking the ranchers off only makes it worse for the horses. I have explained before that we are who takes care of the water. (Most places are watered from troughs in Nevada. Large areas of land have no natural water in summertime. We take care of the water. We salt the animals.)
> 
> Anyways, I have a solution. Take the horses down to the manageable numbers in Nevada and manage them from now on to stay with those numbers using gelding or spaying or whatever means are necessary. All of the excess horses move to other states. Move them around the country and make the issue of wild horses become something personal to everyone, not just something imagined.


I'm not talking about vegetable/legume based fake meat but the type cultured from animal stem cells. The cells are apparently fed with proteins from algae so more land farming isn't an issue. Anyway it won't be available for some time since it costs too much to compete with real meat right now. And there will always be purists who refuse to eat lab meat so there will always be cows. The point is this will probably happen in the future, however distant. 

I agree with you wholeheartedly about controlling the number of wild horses on the land. I see spay/neuter as the only acceptable and humane way of doing it. It is a long term solution and will take time to accomplish but when herds are down to sustainable levels things should get a lot easier. I also was thinking the same thing about moving horses away from overpopulated areas but I don't know how feasible the logistics of it would be. Maybe you are just being a little sarcastic?? LOL! Still a good idea though. :smile:


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## pasomountain

bsms said:


> I agree with some of the views expressed by Pendley here. Don't know much about him, but we have states where the majority of land is owned by the federal government. I like public lands. But I'm not convinced the US government is the right level of government to own 38% of Arizona, 61% of Idaho, 65% of Utah or 85% of Nevada. Why should the large populations in California or east of the Mississippi have as much right to determine what happens in Nevada as the people living in Nevada (or Utah, or Arizona) do? 60% of the mustangs are in Nevada. Why should people in Florida have the same vote in dealing with them that Nevadans do?
> 
> The Endangered Species Act is regularly abused by people who never set foot in the state involved in a dispute. A group in New York can tie up something in Utah for years. I was a biology major at Utah State. I spent time working for the US Forest Service and the Division of Wildlife Resources before I got tired of seasonal jobs. My wife & grandkids and I went hiking yesterday in Sedona:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love the outdoors, but I don't assume "environmental groups" know or care about the real outdoors. Too many people with no skin in the game, let alone knowledge of local issues, determine how land they never see is managed. And too often, it is managed based on fantasies about the environment. Unicorns instead of mustangs.



I am not affiliated with any environmental group since they are usually too extreme but I do have my own personal reasons for caring about the environment. As such I have spent a lot of time outdoors in UT, NV, and AZ as well. And loving it!! My bf and I frequently were out in the middle of nowhere but in all our travels only saw one horse by itself in NV that might have been wild--hard to say. I know they are there--I just didn't see them. However we had many more encounters with free range cattle--on the road alive and dead. And once we were almost charged by a pregnant cow (with big horns!) while out hiking at Kodachrome State Park in UT. Just saying. Oh and we saw 3 wild burros in California--huge open field, no fencing. I think the burro's should also be managed with spay/gelding by the way.


----------



## pasomountain

COWCHICK77 said:


> I'm for spaying and gelding. But the extremists are against it saying it messes with herd dynamics.
> 
> Again, livestock numbers are controlled. Diversity in grazing animals like horses, cattle, sheep and wildlife can help preserve the grasses. Turning all government ground into feral horse grazing is not the way manage range.
> 
> As far as "fake meat", I disagree.
> Plant-based fake meat is soy or pea based from my understanding. Even fast food restaurants like Arbys, Taco Bell and Chipotle don't want anything to do with it. It is highly processed. It seems the only people really interested in fake meat are the PETA groups.
> Soy is GMO and there is a big backlash lately against GMO crops. So good luck selling it.
> Pea protein seems to be in shortage for the commercial use of fake meat. Producing pea protein needs farmland. So do you give up the land for cattle for farming peas to produce meat?
> 
> Cell-based fake meat is years behind plant-based 'meat' in development and expensive. Also are people going to get past the stigma of " fake, lab-raised meat"?
> Much like getting Americans past the thought of eating horse or dog.



Yeah I know the PETA type people think sterilization will make the wild horses virtually extinct. I don't agree though, the BLM is under too much public scrutiny to go that far.

You made good points about the plant based meat but it was the cellular I was referring to. It's probably coming sooner or later and will appeal to all the folks who are against inhumane slaughter practices besides those worried about land use. If it does ever go mainstream there will always be those who won't eat it so cows will always be part of our life. Just fewer of them.


----------



## mred

If you sterilized 90 percent of the horses in the wild, at a cost of $$$. And continued to feed the ones in pens at a cost of $$$. The wild ones could live an average of another 15 years. By then the grass will all be gone, the horses will start to die due to no food, or water and the ones in pens after feeding another 15 years will be dead, living out their life in a pen.
The land will not recover for another 10 to 15 years if ever. And the wild horse problem will be fixed. 
To save some of the wild horses and the land, we must do something now. It will be a hard choice, but the only one. 
You will have to dispose of most of the wild horses and the ones in pens. And yes sterilize most of the males in the wild to keep the birth rate to what the land will support. We have allowed this to happen because we did not make the hard choices in the past. Most of you have no problem in putting cats and dogs to sleep when shelters run out of space. You may not like it, but it happens every day. And you allow it to happen. If you really want to keep the wild horses, they and the land have to be managed. 
I have 6 horses on 37 acres. It is somewhat managed and I still give free access to hay almost year round. They are free to roam this area with only the outside fence. I think they are happy as best a horse can be. There is no better sight than to see them running in a herd across pasture at full speed. I plan to bury them all in that pasture where most of them have lived all of their lives. But I will not breed or purchase any more. Getting too old to care for them.


----------



## pasomountain

mred said:


> If you sterilized 90 percent of the horses in the wild, at a cost of $$$. And continued to feed the ones in pens at a cost of $$$. The wild ones could live an average of another 15 years. By then the grass will all be gone, the horses will start to die due to no food, or water and the ones in pens after feeding another 15 years will be dead, living out their life in a pen.
> The land will not recover for another 10 to 15 years if ever. And the wild horse problem will be fixed.
> To save some of the wild horses and the land, we must do something now. It will be a hard choice, but the only one.
> You will have to dispose of most of the wild horses and the ones in pens. And yes sterilize most of the males in the wild to keep the birth rate to what the land will support. We have allowed this to happen because we did not make the hard choices in the past. Most of you have no problem in putting cats and dogs to sleep when shelters run out of space. You may not like it, but it happens every day. And you allow it to happen. If you really want to keep the wild horses, they and the land have to be managed.
> I have 6 horses on 37 acres. It is somewhat managed and I still give free access to hay almost year round. They are free to roam this area with only the outside fence. I think they are happy as best a horse can be. There is no better sight than to see them running in a herd across pasture at full speed. I plan to bury them all in that pasture where most of them have lived all of their lives. But I will not breed or purchase any more. Getting too old to care for them.


Well all that $$$ is our tax dollars at work and that's what I want it spent on. Where are you getting your stats? How do you know all the grass will be gone in that time frame? I am not out on the range to see but are things really that dire all over or just in certain areas?


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## WildAbtHorses

The minimum number for a genetically viable herd is 2,500 wild horses, according to the IUCN Species Survival Commission Equid Specialist Group and these levels are even a far cry from the suspect 150 individuals that BLM documents often cite as being genetically viable for a population. IUCN Equids Specailist Group


----------



## mred

Ask the people that live there about the grass. Horses pull put grass to eat it a lot of time. When they over graze, they will eat it down to dirt. I have seen this happen. The ground than has to be replanted for it to come back, with nothing on it for a year for the new grass to take root. If you put 10 horses on 10 acres with poor ground and water, the grass will be gone in a few months. Then what do they eat? Look at the total number of wild horses and the amount the land can support. Without grass a lot of these areas will be dust bowls. Then we will lose what little top soil is there. And remember most of these areas have little grass or water now.


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## WildAbtHorses

*College Newspaper Editors - requested live on-the-ground coverage*

Sent email requesting that they provide on-the-ground daily news updates and weekly Q&A Livestreams on the Wild Horses & Burro situation with what the public can do to help:

Iowa State Daily, Iowa State University
The Argonaut, University of Idaho
The Daily, University of Washington
The Daily Californian, University of California, Berkeley
The Colorado Daily, University of Colorado
The Daily Iowan, University of Iowa
The Badger Herald, University of Wisconsin, Madison


----------



## bsms

We know what overgrazing does because it has happened many times. We also know deserts have a hard time recovering because deserts are a hard place to live in the best of times.








"It would be improper to talk about grazing and ranching in Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument without discussing the Gray family. As one of the first and only families to develop this area for ranching, the Grays found out firsthand how difficult raising cattle could be in this environment. Because of the extremely low grazing capacity they were forced to buy surrounding land parcels in excess of 500 square miles for grazing their herds of cattle just to sustain themselves – one family."

https://organpipehistory.com/orpi-a-z/grazing-capacity/


----------



## COWCHICK77

pasomountain said:


> Well all that $$$ is our tax dollars at work and that's what I want it spent on. Where are you getting your stats? How do you know all the grass will be gone in that time frame? I am not out on the range to see but are things really that dire all over or just in certain areas?



Money spent on BLM range mangement and improvement come from grazing fees. I have cited this fact many times but I feel it bears repeating, 
Grazing saves tax dollars. $2/acre to maintain grazed. $5/acre for none grazed.
Those with permits put in the improvements with their own money that benefit cattle, horses, and wildlife even with the risk of having their permit took or numbers reduced. 




> You made good points about the plant based meat but it was the cellular I was referring to. It's probably coming sooner or later and will appeal to all the folks who are against inhumane slaughter practices besides those worried about land use. If it does ever go mainstream there will always be those who won't eat it so cows will always be part of our life. Just fewer of them.


I am one of those who would not eat lab-grown meat even cell-based. 
Forgive my ignorance but what is inhumane about a slaughterhouse set up for beef?

And something to ponder, if the mustang is a Western icon that needs preserving isn't the cattle, beef industry in the same category? 
The western, cowboy, ranching lifestyle that still supports families does it not deserve the same preservation?

There should be a balance. I am not for wiping out the wild horses and I don't know any one who is but they have to managed. Which we agree on however eradicating public land grazing is not the answer.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Baba Dioum, Forestry Engineer*

"In the end we will conserve only what we love,
we will love only what we understand,
and we will understand only what we are taught."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Dioum


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Still Looking for the Next Generation of Reporters & Documentarian*

High School Newspapers:
Fresno Christian Schools, California
The Shawnee Mission East Student Publication, Kansas
Wayland Student Press Network, Massachusetts

Film Schools:
Colorado Cinema Studies
USC Media Studies
Univ. of Michigan Media Studies
Laguna College of Art & Design
Los Angeles Film School


----------



## Knave

I wasn’t really being totally facetious @pasomountain. I wonder why they couldn’t be transferred around. Obviously they would survive, and I don’t understand why it is so easy to drop Nevada’s lands as important. It seems in some places the land is martyred. I think that is wrong. I do love horses, but when I was a child they were still less common. You say you’ve only seen a few, but you must not be in the places they are overran. The forest service manages better as far as horses go. I don’t blame the blm for this, but I also don’t understand how one entity operated so much more successfully than the other. I would think both faced public scrutiny, but I am not involved enough to know.

Five years ago my husband and I went camping with the horses for our anniversary. On the blm side of the fence the horses were a plague. Several hundred (no exaggeration) horses ran together in eyesight, which is not natural and the land had suffered. Through the gate and into forest service there were no horses to be seen. Oh, I am sure they were there, but like deer or elk there were not overran. We didn’t go out searching for any, but we didn’t run into any (on that side) during our camping trip either.

I am with @COWCHICK77 about the meat. Like green eggs and ham I will not eat them Sam I Am (I pray, of course starving I would eat anything edible). Cellular grown meat... I simply cannot fathom and do not want to try and figure it out. I love chemistry, but I don’t particularly want to eat anything which requires such... I cannot come up with the word I want to use. The biology is exciting, and I don’t mind eating a plant grown from an altered seed, but meat is my cutoff. I would probably eat a cloned animal, but I’m not sure how necessary playing with this science is. There must be a line.

Anyways, it is a moot point to me. I don’t have any issue with eating meat as it is, and I understand enough about grazing to know the benefit of it if managed correctly.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Wild Horses Herd Locator - Mustang Heritage Foundation*










Mustang Heritage Foundation’s Herd Locator:
https://mustangheritagefoundation.o...MIkIql3Pnp4wIVARgMCh1UrA_tEAAYASAAEgI7tvD_BwE


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*The End of the Road?*

I hate the idea that we have so many horses in overcrowded holding pens and so many in the wild starving and thirsty.

I feel like Americans have become compliant with the situation.

I have no more ideas, my heart is broken, and I don’t know what else I can do.

My Personal Journal with Additional Wild Horses Links:
https://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/my-personal-journal-americas-wild-horses-805847/

God Bless America’s Wild Horses & Burros and may some divine person come to their rescue.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*A Canadian Horse Rescue's Idea*

https://www.freedomsgateequinerescue.com/training-program

"Rescues very often get horses into care that are unhandled or poorly handled and make it harder for them to be adopted by the general public. We will now offer these horses, free of charge, to Pre-Approved trainers to work with these horses over a pre determined period of time. We expect in return a minimum of monthly you tube videos to show the horses progress. If at the end of the training, the horse is not suitable*for the facility, whether it be pony club, lessons horse etc. The horse can then be rehomed. Freedom's Gate will then receive*the original*adoption fee of the horse, or 50% or the sale price, whichever is less."

This horse rescue is located in Salmon Arm, BC, Canada (north of Vernon). If North America had more "Freedoms Gate Equine Rescues" that would be great!

Oh they have the best tee-shirts (they have me in tears).


----------



## Knave

I think that it isn’t the lack of training which is keeping the horses from being adopted, which I kind of tried to explain before when I mentioned the tip program. After all, buying a mustang from the pens is so cheap that paying a trainer would only bring the horse up to an expected asking price. 

It is the stigma attached to the horses. Forest service horses are much more sellable. A grade horse is easy enough to find an owner for, not everyone requires papers to be happy, but the brand on the neck says right where a blm horse originated.

My big mustang colt gets a mix of reactions based nothing upon his training. When he steps out of a trailer people have their mind made up. The people I am around are capable of starting their own horses, and so they are judging him based upon what they see. He is a great big horse and most wouldn’t complain about his looks. Now, some don’t like big horses, and that can dismiss him in their mind.

However, many people who dislike him point out his brand. A man I enjoyed working with one day said it perfectly, “All I can see when I look at him is his neck.” He dismissed him just that easily, and many do. I do not hold this against anyone; blm horses are tied into most people’s emotions one way or another. To me they are simply horses with the benefit of being raised outside (gathered horses anyways, not holding pen born). 

I say all this only because I think focusing on training the horses isn’t where solving the problem would lie. Maybe the horses sell better in places that they are not thought of in the same way. 

Maybe I don’t dismiss them because before the blm became in charge of them my grandfather gathered, started and sold them. I was raised on stories of running mustangs and of the individual horses that stood out. I hold no qualms with the individual horses. 

However, like most in my circle, I hold issue with what they are doing to the land and their lack of management. I also would bet that the negativity towards riding a blm horse would fade away eventually if they were not so damaging. Many people can start horses, and so I think your focus towards solving the issue must come from a different angle.


----------



## bsms

I would consider a well-built BLM mustang a big plus. But I'm in the minority.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*The Mustang's Neck Tattoo is a Badge of High Honors*

The Mustang's neck tattoo is a badge of honor and any American that thinks otherwise "Shame on Them!"

All Americans appreciate, or should, the SPIRIT, the fortitude, the tenaciousness, and the gentleness of the wild bred and raised Mustang.

I would have liked your dad.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Teal Drones & Strong Pop-up Fences - No more helicopter or chases*

Just sent an e-mail to George Matus https://tealdrones.com

A 21 year old entrepreneur! Who may already have a military contract.
https://www.forbes.com/profile/george-matus/#15b8f49b6c1b


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Tommy Lee Jones on his Mustang in Lonesome Dove*

https://www.horseforum.com/members/...my-lee-jones-his-mustang-lonesome-129921.jpeg

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonesome_Dove

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonesome_Dove_(miniseries)


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## WildAbtHorses

*Tommy Lee Jones on his Mustang!*


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Young Scientists - asking them their thoughts on the situation*

https://www.youngscientistlab.com

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannm...ting-manufacturing-and-industry/#2657ab8f3ed2

Sean Petterson, 26 http://www.strongarmtech.com
Anurag Garg, 29 https://www.plex.com
Jeremy Blum https://shapertools.com
Noah Snyder and Kasey Catt https://interphasematerials.com
Sean Warner and Patrick Pittaluga http://grubblyfarms.com
Jonathan Saperstein https://www.treetownusa.com
John Spirk https://nottinghamspirk.com
Jenny Lawton https://www.techstars.com
Jewel Burks About ? Jewel Burks

"The Future of America's Wild Horses: The Options" By Ben Masters
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/a...ement-options/
If the link above does not work search Google: Ben Masters The Future of America's Wild Horses


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## WildAbtHorses

*Wild Horses: Brand Marketing; Drones instead of Helicopters; and "Live As If Someone*

Here are some suggestions:

1. Marking the Wild Horses & Burros Brand - the neck tattoo badge of honor - it was hard earned and deserves our respect. It represents: Surefooted, Confident, Brave, Calm, Sweet, Majestic (the overgrazing is man's fault, not the horses).

2. Drones and Pop-up Fencing instead of helicopters. Go quietly and efficiently to where the Wild Horses are and effectively administer birth control, removing the young horses, helping the sick and*injured.*https://tealdrones.com/about/

3. Implement free befriending to qualified trainings (the more horses that are in holding pens that have been befriended the healthier the herd). See
https://www.freedomsgateequinerescue.com/training-program

4. Post the befriending videos on a special American Wild Horses YouTube Channel (offer voting to the public and prizes to the trainers).


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Example of Great Marketing!*

LOL YouTube “If Horses Were People” -what a great marketing campaign!

Never heard of this company until this YouTube video popped-up (LOL): 




“7 Hidden Dangers … Horse …”


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*"...choose to buck-up instead of give-up"*

American veterans with American Mustangs (gorgeous photography)


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling & Spanish Wild Horses - Invite him to BLM's Oct Mtg*

Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCttSYK-zCC0gCQfOapv9J1Q
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Ferdinand_Hempfling
Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling | Coach & consultant in personal relations, business and society and one of the most renowned horse-experts of the world

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrenees
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottok

The Pottok measures 1.15 to 1.47 metres (11.1 to 14.2*hands) in height, and weighs between 300 to 350 kilograms (661 to 772*lb). It has a large, square head, small ears, short neck and long back with short but slim legs, and small, sturdy*hooves

These semi-feral herds are rounded up twice a year, once in March before birthing and once in October after weaning.

Semi-feral Pottoks tend to be shy and live in small, territorial herds or*harems*numbering between 10–30*mares.*They are able to predict the weather conditions, moving into the valleys in anticipation of bad weather and upland when high pressure builds.*During the autumn, the herd breaks up into smaller groups of 5–10 horses and re-unite in spring.
Foals*mature quickly.*Fillies*become fertile at age 2, normally mate at age 3 and give birth at age 4, which is also the age of maturity for males.*Foals, like those of other breeds, are born after 11 months during spring/early summer and are weaned after 6–7 months.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Hempfling befriends Horses in less than 1 minute*

a minutes per horse
50,000 horses/minutes divided by 60 = 834 hours
All horses in holding pens gentled in only 21 weeks
That’s less than six (6) months!

America needs to hire him. NOW!


----------



## SilverMaple

And then what? There are still far more horses than homes. They still aren't worth much even when trained. You'd still have tens of thousands of horses nobody wants.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*I See Opportunities: Global Community & The American Mustangs*

Image a World Stage with a Herd of Mustangs and a horse trainer performing from the American West to a Global audience live in-person or via Livestream.

Klaus Hempfling completes the initial gentling process; than any certified horse trainer from anywhere in the World can come to American. The horse trainer can select any size herd to transform into a performance (vblogging the process).

Horsey America: Wild West travel destinations, horse competitions, prizes, Global participation (Q&A, on-line voting), awards, horsey fairs with games and other attractions, horse camps for all ages, horse clinics from introduction to advanced horsemanship.

So many possibilities! Plus healthier and happier horses in holding pens.


----------



## bsms

It takes far more than 1 minute to gentle a wild horse. Don't believe what you see on YouTube.

"_Instead, Hempfling promotes the use of specific body language to establish a relationship between horse and human in which the horse recognises the human handler as the higher-ranking, dominant partner, but in which there is still trust in the handler. Hempfling claims that the handler can establish this relationship of dominance and trust through the use of subtle but powerful body signals and without the need for significant psychological or physical pressure on the horse. Hempfling developed these signals through his observations of high-ranking animals in feral horse populations....

...The purported benefits of Hempfling's approach are that, once an effective relationship is established and maintained, the horse will be genuinely drawn to the handler, and the process of learning and training will become easier and more harmonious as the horse becomes a more willing and psychologically content partner..._" - From your Wiki link

Sorry. I own a mustang plus a half mustang. After several years in the same corral, neither one recognizes the other as a "higher-ranking, dominant partner". They were ****ed at each other at feeding time yesterday, although I made it clear that when I stepped into the corral, their bickering was over. While I was there. Or no food. At best, Cowboy & Bandit tolerate each other.

YouTube isn't real. People sell themselves or their ideas on YouTube. Many are fantasies, just as Hollywood is about fantasies. On average, horses aren't very nice to each other. Anyone who has introduced a new horse to an established group knows there IS NO INNATE LANGUAGE that allows a horse to build instant trust and cooperation with another horse. And if HORSES cannot, humans cannot either.


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## Knave

@SilverMaple makes the point that overshadows @bsms ‘s (which is so evidently true it almost lacks any required saying). 

It doesn’t matter if the horses were all gentle. That isn’t the issue. As I explained, training them is not what is wrong. The blm has the tip program. It has the competitions too that you imagine. The money is big for drawing interest. These things all already exist. They simply don’t solve the problem.


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## mred

And let us not forget that trained horses go to slaughter sales everyday. The backyard bleeders today are still producing foals that no one wants. How many people on here know an old person that has passed and left the old horse to his family to dispose of? I just met a man that is over 70, in and out of the hospital, bad health, can barely get around and he purchased a 3 year old stud. He wants to break one so he can ride. He can't even walk some days.
Some people are not seeing the whole picture. We have to make the hard choices for some to help the others.


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## Hondo

I'm going to throw in a thought here. Temple Grandin claims a horse can be humanely euthanized but it is not possible to humanely slaughter them due to their very high fear level. This does not refer to the actual method of killing them, gunshot or capture thingie. It refers to the method of handling up to the point of killing them. Cattle are relatively docile up to that point using proper equipment and handling, but a horse may kill himself or render himself immobile prior to reaching that point.


The real problem is there are no more Sabre Toothed Tigers around that died out in North America with the horse. When re-introduced, the horse had and has no natural enemies, other than some humans. The problem can only be solved with some sort of population control. Maiming them through hunting by reckless hunters in not a humane option. I see no humane option other than sterilization. I'm not alone in this opinion.


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## WildAbtHorses

All great posts. All valid points. But we should try... this will probably be the only time that American's will have 100,000 wild horses to "play" with; so let's take advantage of our natural resource: The American Mustang (and burro).

Just a thought:

Take Rt 80 in Nevada like between Elko and Carlin a 22-mile stretch. And image that every five-to-ten miles there would be either a watering hole or a new "old" Western town.

And image having the ability to control and run herds of "wild horses" through these new "old" towns two, three, four times a day. What an amazing site that would be to witness.

We should at least talk to Klause Hempfling. "We have nothing to lose and everything to gain." by -?


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## mred

And to support this people are going to pay? You will have to feed and water, who is going to pay for it. Let the people in Nevada decide what best to do. Horses can live to be 20 to 30 years. 
*We need population control now!
And how to dispose of at lease 30,000 plus horses now!
So maybe we can save the balance of the horses and the land. *


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## WildAbtHorses

Yes, population control is a must and the sooner the better.
Yes, more wild horses must be removed from the wild.
As for the excess, which I believe totals 100,000 (50k in holding pens and 50k excess in the wild).

Politics and the general public have removed slaughter as an option, at least for the immediate future. That is what I’m hearing.

My suggestions are for-profit endeavors. Kinda a rustic theme park with Mustangs running through it. Sorta like the Arizona donkey town.

I’m just looking for solutions that humans can agree on and helps the horses in pens and in the wild.


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## phantomhorse13

WildAbtHorses said:


> Take Rt 80 in Nevada like between Elko and Carlin a 22-mile stretch. And image that every five-to-ten miles there would be either a watering hole or a new "old" Western town.
> 
> And image having the ability to control and run herds of "wild horses" through these new "old" towns two, three, four times a day. What an amazing site that would be to witness.


So you don't want to round up wild horses periodically to control the population and preserve the land, but its ok to drive them around tourist traps multiple times a day, supposedly for profit?


OP, do you have any personal experience with horses, domestic or otherwise?


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## WildAbtHorses

Yes to birth control (the sooner the better).

Yes, I agree on removing additional horses from the wild. But maybe use drones & pop-up fencing & gentler process instead of the current method of helicopters. Now would be a great time for some very thorough research studies.

Yes, run-the-horses in holding pens for tourists and make a profit to help support making wild horses both captured and free happier and healthier.

Yes, protect the land from over use by domestic animals and humans. Yes, protect America's public land for future generations.

I have never owned a horse, and I can't imagine the work and resources that go into having that responsibility. I've mucked out stalls, groomed, and have ridden only a very few times. But I do LOVE and appreciate everything about horses!


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## WildAbtHorses

*Proposal: Mustang Run, Nevada (Old Town USA)*


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## mred

I have owned horses most of my life. At this time I have 6 horses and 4 ponies. I feed about $3000 a year in hay and about $4000 in feed. This does not include any salt blocks or even the cost of the water. I have had almost $10,000 in vet bills in one year. And mine run free on about 37 acres. Let us use the number of $1000 a year. I think most horse people would say that is not enough. Let us say we are only going to save 20,000 in this new park. That is about $20 million per year. Plus land, let us use 10 acres per horse, that is 200,000 acres. Remember this land is dry. And water, drill well, pump and supply. And labor, how many people? And with costs that high, who will pay to see it. I had rather see the ones left on the range running free. And most of the people are going to Las Vegas or Reno to spend their money.
And you don't want to use helicopters to round them up, but there is no problem with running them in and out of town 4 to 5 times a day. It is not easy to make the hard choices in life. But it should never had allowed to get this bad. We have to dispose of most of these horses to save the balance. But let the local people handle it. You won't find a half a dozen people in the federal government that has even seem a wild horse.


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## bsms

If the mustangs are not afraid of mankind and vehicles, then they will look like domestic horses strolling along. It would be a lot like charging people to come look in my corral. And if they are used to drones, they will ignore them. The same way my horses ignore low flying aircraft when we are in the desert.

I suspect the truth most mustang enthusiasts cannot understand is that most people don't get much of a thrill from wild mustangs. The reality isn't actually very romantic. They are...horses.








PS: El Bandito isn't dead.Sure looked like it for a hour, though. But horses tend to hang out. Swatting flies. Pooping. Strolling. Looking for shelter, then staying in one. "_The wicked run when no one is chasing them..._" - Proverbs 28:1 But horses are not wicked. If you wanted action for tourists to see, you would have to chase them for the 9 AM show.


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## SilverMaple

WildAbtHorses said:


> All great posts. All valid points. But we should try... this will probably be the only time that American's will have 100,000 wild horses to "play" with; so let's take advantage of our natural resource: The American Mustang (and burro).
> 
> Just a thought:
> 
> Take Rt 80 in Nevada like between Elko and Carlin a 22-mile stretch. And image that every five-to-ten miles there would be either a watering hole or a new "old" Western town.
> 
> And image having the ability to control and run herds of "wild horses" through these new "old" towns two, three, four times a day. What an amazing site that would be to witness.
> 
> We should at least talk to Klause Hempfling. "We have nothing to lose and everything to gain." by -?



How much actual experience do you have with horses? With mustangs? Because much of what you are suggesting, while possibly sounding good to someone without much experience, really isn't feasible, humane, or appropriate when it comes to actual horses.


Your passions is admirable, but still doesn't address the problem. There are FAR TOO MANY HORSES that nobody wants. With the expense of horse ownership and land increasing every day, that is not going to get better. When good, broke, registered horses are going to slaughter because there aren't enough people who can afford to keep them, that leaves the mustangs with zero options. We have to decrease the population, especially of aged horses in the holding pens. Only once the numbers have been brought under control can any of the 'nice to think about but not feasible with the current situation' suggestions even be considered.


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## SilverMaple

Our local 4H club's monthly "Fun Show" got rained out the other night, so we had a couple of hours to kill with 30 kids ranging in age from 10 - 14 in the shelter house at the show grounds eating hot dogs with time to kill.

We presented the current facts and issues with the wild horses to them--- all farm/agricultural-background kids who own and love horses. A couple are either riding mustangs currently or have one at home, along with the options available as discussed earlier in this thread (sterilization, slaughter, let them starve, hunting, do nothing, etc.)

The kids had a good time debating and debunking, suggesting and saying why those suggestions would or would not be feasible. They came up with two conclusions:

1.) There are too many horses and too few people who want them. Sterilization options are not going to effectively solve the problem at the current numbers. Doing nothing is not an option-- while they all love horses, they also realize that the land and indigenous species and ranch/recreational use should also have a place at the table. Most also agreed that the current quality of the horses in the pens and on the ranges is acting against them. There are some nice ones that are attractive, but most aren't, which limits their marketability even if trained and given away or resold. A horse with no market value may well end up worse off than if he'd starved on the range or been sent to slaughter. 

2.) A large-scale destruction of a lot of these horses is inevitable. Either the range will do it for them, causing a slow death for these horses as well as ruining the land for generations, or we can suck it up and do the right, though hard, thing and end the horses' lives as swiftly and humanely as possible. A bullet is quick, and if done correctly, painless. And it's cheap. And the animal can either be left for predators, or processed for human or animal consumption. A veterinary euthanization would be more stressful to the horses if they are not used to being handled, pollutes the land, and renders the animal unfit for consumption by human or animal, including scavengers.

Their solution? Hire military troops with sniper experience to humanely euthanize herds in the wild a few horses at a time, and shoot penned horses who don't meet criteria in terms of conformation, age, or soundness. Is it pretty to think about? No. But sometimes a quick death is preferable to a slow death by starvation or a trip on a truck to Mexico.

Once range horses and penned horse populations are down to a reasonable number, THEN use sterilization tactics to control the population and also to allow the better quality individuals to breed. More horses who have sought-after traits and conformation will increase adoption numbers. Myself and several of these kids and their families have all gone to adoption events on more than one occasion and have come home with empty trailers because none of the horses available suited our criteria-- which were usually 14.2 - 15+ hands or more in height, good conformation, attractive/Spanish characteristics. We aren't that picky, but if we're going to sink time and money into a mustang, having something that looks at least somewhat pretty standing in the pasture is a requirement. A 13.2, narrow, weedy, jugheaded horse isn't really adoptable, nor does he have any value even if he was trained. Time is valuable, space is valuable. Hay and feed and vet care are expensive. It's a lot easier to spend that money on a stocky-looking horse with a pretty head and thick build that you wouldn't mind being seen riding.


I was very impressed with the maturity and thought processes of these young people. Even the kids who started out saying they loved wild horses and wanted them left alone came around once the facts were presented to them. Loving horses sometimes means having to face hard truths. Most of these kids live on a farm. They realize that loving something doesn't always mean it gets to live out its life in happiness. They raise hogs and cattle. About half of them have cared for and shown a hog or steer that, after hundreds of hours of work caring for and training the animal, will be sold to slaughter after the fair/show season. They will cry and mourn that animal, but they made the choice going into it knowing this was the outcome, and they are comforted that their animal had the best of everything when it was with them. For most, the money from that animal will purchase a calf or young pig next spring and the process repeats itself-- or they put the money toward college or toward family expenses. They've had pastures flooded or grass decimated by drought, and watched their parents sell herds because the land wouldn't support those animals any longer and to leave them on it would ruin the land and lead to the suffering of the animals-- so those animals were sold, even if it meant taking a loss. These kids know that their saddle horse will likely be sold when they leave for college, because if you can't care for it properly, it should go to someone who can-- especially a usable animal. Four of these kids have had horses die or be put down this summer; one for colic, one after an accident, and two for long-term chronic illnesses that weren't going to get better-- one more has made the decision to have his first pony euthanized this fall as she founders every winter and he's decided, on his own, that the sweet little mare shouldn't have to suffer for six months a year as veterinary options have run out. They know what it is to love and care for an animal, and that doing so also means you have to make hard choices-- for the animal, for the land, and for your family and financial reasons, too.


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## WildAbtHorses

Okay, the costs (as I suspected) are outrageous, which the Gov't is and will continue to pay no matter if "Mustang Run, USA" exists or not.

1. I can't even train my dog to come when I call it.
2. I did think bsms was showing us a dead horse. LOL Love Cowboy & Bandit!
3. With 100,000 horses - each horse would only have to run once a month.
4. If the horses don't want to run 5-miles, let's shorten the distance.
5. Cowboys and Cowgirls will be required along with farriers, vets, etc. the public is welcome to observe in-person or via Livestreams. Mustang Run could be a 24x7x365 operation... 100,000 horses! and have affiliations with Vet Schools, etc.
6. Mustang Run does not have to be in dry Nevada. It can be anywhere. How about Maine?


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## WildAbtHorses

Instead of Lions & Coffee how about Mustangs & Coffee?


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## SilverMaple

WildAbtHorses said:


> Okay, the costs (as I suspected) are outrageous, which the Gov't is and will continue to pay no matter if "Mustang Run, USA" exists or not.
> 
> 1. I can't even train my dog to come when I call it.
> 2. I did think bsms was showing us a dead horse. LOL Love Cowboy & Bandit!
> 3. With 100,000 horses - each horse would only have to run once a month.
> 4. If the horses don't want to run 5-miles, let's shorten the distance.
> 5. Cowboys and Cowgirls will be required along with farriers, vets, etc. the public is welcome to observe in-person or via Livestreams. Mustang Run could be a 24x7x365 operation... 100,000 horses! and have affiliations with Vet Schools, etc.
> 6. Mustang Run does not have to be in dry Nevada. It can be anywhere. How about Maine?



How are you going to pay for it? What's the difference leaving an horse in a holding pen in Nevada or Nebraska as in a holding pen in Mustang Run? You're going to have 100,000 horses there just to run them through once a month? How is that any better than their current situation? It doesn't matter what state you put them in... horses still eat and poop and need vet care and farrier work and all of that costs money. The amount the BLM pays per horse is far lower than what it would cost to maintain those horses in most of the rest of the country. We live in Iowa. I can tell you something like Mustang Run would be a laughingstock. If people want to go watch horses run, they can go look in their own pasture for free. People would be up in arms that quality agricultural land would be used for a feral, non-native species with no market value. And good luck getting insurance.... and if people wanted to go see mustangs up and close and personal, most, if not all, of the BLM holding pens are open to the public by appointment. And you know what? The public don't want to watch wild horses enough to go see them in the pens free of charge, why would they go to Mustang Run and pay to see them? Plus, horses in pens are boring. I love horses and I enjoyed my time looking at horses in the pens seeing which ones I might want to take home, or which ones a friend would choose, but for most people, that's like watching paint dry. 

I worked at a guest ranch for several years in Montana where we had about a 1/4 mile stretch between the corral/barn and the pastures. The horses were jingled off the mountain and pastures and run in at 5 or 6 am to be saddled and ridden, run out at noon for an afternoon of grazing/hay, then run back in at 4 pm for riding and out again around 9 pm. Guests liked to come watch them run in or out the first day or two, or liked seeing them go out at night on a cool evening when they'd run and buck and play. But it was only about half a dozen guests out of the fifty or so there each week, and most only came once. Most of them, while also liking horses and riding every day, had no interest in watching 100 horses trot or canter down the road and out to pasture. Jingling 100 horses off a mountainside in the gray light of dawn on a fall morning was enjoyable for whichever of us on staff volunteered to keep a horse in and go do it the next day, but not something the majority of the guests had any interest in watching. 



And let me tell you, those horses were a lot of work and a huge expense for the ranch owner, but those horses worked hard and they got good care and are in the minority when it comes to camp/dude horses in that they were wintered over year after year and not run through the loose pen at the end of the season to avoid paying for eight months of care when they weren't generating income. And when a horse who served faithfully for years got too old to go out on the rides, they went up on the mountain to a retirement pasture and were humanely shot/buried when it became obvious their quality of life would soon suffer. Why are mustangs worthy of better treatment than good horses who have given a lifetime of enjoyment for people? Why is death so hard for people in this country to come to terms with? It will happen to all of us. And you really can't say a horse who has spent eight years on the range, wild and free, and who meets a bullet has it bad, can you? Isn't that preferable to him making it to 10 and starving to death? Or making it to 12, breaking a leg, and being eaten alive by scavengers once he's down due to dehydration?


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## WildAbtHorses

*wild horse puzzle*

I have always been a defender of the underdog. "A 13.2, narrow, weedy, jugheaded horse isn't really adoptable, nor does he have any value even if he was trained." I want them all.

SilverMaple you certainly have given me a great deal to think on.

I believe it was kids just like the ones you've been talking to that saved the wild mustangs back in the 1970s, which has brought us to our current situation. Power to the People! or Kids!

If slaughter were an option, I would be happy to continue chatting about it and discuss the best humanely way possible to have horse meat available at local butcher shops. Unless you and those kids know the right Congressman or Congresswoman, slaughter is not an option at present.

We need to resolve this puzzle with the pieces that we have available to us.

SilverMaple, please know that I believe we are on the same side and that we want the same outcome: happy wild horse populations both free and in pens and a flourishing natural environment. I hear you, and I am as frustrated with this situation as you are. We need a solution.

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.” -Reinhold Niebuhr


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## bsms

WildAbtHorses said:


> I have always been a defender of the underdog. "A 13.2, narrow, weedy, jugheaded horse isn't really adoptable, nor does he have any value even if he was trained." I want them all...


I'd be happy if every mustang enthusiast took ONE! The problem is the people who have none, won't ever take one, have never seen one, yet vote on what to do. People with no skin in the game making decisions for those who do. People who will never travel beyond Las Vegas and Reno - if that! - and yet who want to tell Nevadans how to manage herds of mustangs.

I appreciate your passion and concern, WildAbtHorses. I really do. You genuinely care and that is wonderful. But the only answer I see is for mustang advocates outside of Nevada to shut up. Certainly those outside of the Intermountain West! We need to change the law to allow slaughter and hunting, and that won't come until people - even the advocates - admit to the math.


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## Avna

If I were Dictator-Queen I would shoot or poison every wild horse on the ranges except a handful of the best. Yes, I really would. And then I would manage the herds very tightly -- all rounded up every year for doctoring and culling, the few best stallions and bands of the best producing mares, the foals all pulled off when weaned and either culled (killed), trained and sold, or kept for breeding purposes (turned out on to the range. The total number at any time would be way below carrying capacity. 

And I would not take public opinion into account in the slightest (dictator-queen, remember?)

The present combination of ignorance, greed, sentimentality, bureaucracy, politics, and economic realities are destroying the ecosystem, which is vastly more important than any single species it supports, including horses.


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## WildAbtHorses

Interesting responses.

As we, mere mortals (Queens, Dictators, Queen-Dictators [very clever], Senators, commoners) bicker and fight over who should do what The Universe Supreme --Mother Nature, is going to hit-the-reset: floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis --BOOM! with one colossal clash of thunder followed by the lighting-bolt...

--RESET completed.

Enough is Enough.

The horses and the environment need us to stop bickering and agree on a plan. Since slaughter is so controversial and the US Gov't has recently tightened restrictions on the slaughter of US horses, can we please continue brainstorming ideas?

YES! Arizona and Nevada, please keep fighting for your States rights, but in the meantime, let us work together for the 100,000 innocent horses and burros that need our help. When we fix the horse problem, we will stop the degradation of our public lands.

If you want the Federal Gov't to thin horse herds like they thin (sharpshoot) the deers at Valley Forge, get Congress to pass a law.

Of course, this is just my humble opinion.


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## gottatrot

WildAbtHorses said:


> I have always been a defender of the underdog. "A 13.2, narrow, weedy, jugheaded horse isn't really adoptable, nor does he have any value even if he was trained." I want them all.


I'm sure you think you do, but in reality, do you? 
You love horses. Do you want one you can't ride? Maybe you still say yes. 

If you want to keep him more affordably, you can keep him at your house. In order to do that you will need to buy at least several acres. Can make that payment? That makes things more expensive, but also you should realize you can't just have one little horse, because that won't be good for him. You'll need at least two or three.

If you don't want to be tied down to your house because you have to feed the horses every single day, and it's difficult to find people who are able to care for horses when you go on vacation, then you'll need to board your horse. That also would mean you could have just one.

It's going to cost you board, which is probably around $250 a month minimum, farrier care, which is around $50 every six weeks or so, fly spray/vitamins/ointments/necessary small items for about $100 a month, dental care which is about $300 a year, vaccinations and worming which are about $100 a year.

All told you'll spend at least $5,000 a year for that little weedy horse, if you don't have an major vet bills. That is what you are asking people to commit to if they adopt a mustang. Let's see the ad that will sell it: "For only $5,000 a year, you can have a piece of our heritage." 

You've never owned a horse, so maybe after a couple of years you lose your job and decide you can't afford this pony anymore. Or maybe you didn't realize that even with the best training horses can still end up kicking and injuring you, biting, or destroying property. Even if a horse sends you to the hospital, he still deserves good care. The horse might not even care you exist, or even meet you at the gate with a glare and turn his back. He'll have his own personality, and one you might not care for. Horses can be more compared to cats in personality than dogs. Very opinionated.

How many things would you be willing to give up in order to make sure this horse had a good life? Cable TV, coffee, phone minutes, gas for long trips, eating out, etc. Now a lot of people make these sacrifices because they don't have large incomes and they love horses that much. But even if they love horses they'll probably want to make those sacrifices for horses they want because they can ride them on trails, take them to horse shows, use them for ranch work, or other things.

So, are you willing to make this sacrifice and commitment to adopt a wild horse? Yourself? Probably not. You may say you're not in a position to do so right now. Well that's most of America, because horses are very expensive and it's only worth it to those who value them so much they will personally sacrifice to have them.

It's not just committing to a horse. It can be committing to keeping a job you don't like that much, and going every day, because you have to keep your income coming in to pay for your horse. It can be committing to going out and doing barn chores when you are sick or the weather is horrible or you just need a "mental break." 

You'll see horse people dragging themselves around with braces on their legs or casts, because they couldn't find anyone to cover their chores and the horses still need to be fed and cleaned up after. It's not for those who want to stay inside and be cozy, and it's a dirty, tough lifestyle that leaves us with callused hands and scars.


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## WildAbtHorses

gotta-trot you are spot-on! I loved your write-up and agree with everything.

Except right now as a tax-payer I currently own 100,000 unwanted horses and I do feel responsible for their health and well-being.


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## pasomountain

I think "the public" is just tired of everything being killed.

This is what the public sees--millions of sheep and cattle on public lands. Only 100,000 wild horses and half are in pens. They don't realize most are concentrated in certain areas and not spread out so the numbers don't seem to add up. Like why can't you make room for a few horses instead of hogging millions of acres just for other livestock. Then they see articles with info like this--

"Two controversial programs directly remove and kill wildlife that threaten livestock at taxpayer expense. USDA Wildlife Services spends $8 millionhttp://dailypitchfork.org/?p=631#_ftn4 to kill millions of native predators every year, courtesy of an unknowing public. The BLM’s Wild Horses and Burros program also removes thousands of federally protected horses and burros each year from designated wild horse habitat so that, during the ongoing drought, more water and forage are available for ranchers on public assistance. The cost of that program tops $80 million a year. That’s $380 per rancher to kill predators (wolves, coyotes, bear, cougars, bobcats and eagles) and ten times that much ($3,809) to get rid of wild horses and burros."

I understand the need to protect livestock but the reason there is no natural predators for horses is because many ranchers want the predators dead--right? I know people who had their horse attacked by a cougar so I know they will go after horses if allowed. 

Things like this will never get the public on your side even if you have legitimate reasons for doing it--

https://blog.humanesociety.org/2019...ers-move-to-ban-such-events-in-the-state.html

I guess predators have to be controlled too--of course I don't want them attacking my pets either. It's not just predators being killed though. What about the buffalo, bighorn sheep, prairie dogs--

"Wildlife Services, an arm of the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), killed 3.2 million wild animals in 2015 - including bobcats, prairie dogs, coyotes and foxes - by trapping, shooting and poisoning, which can also unintentionally kill endangered species and even family pets. The slaughter last year was up half a million animals, from 2.7 million in 2014. " 

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2016/05/yellowstone-national-parks-bison-elk/

https://patch.com/colorado/across-co/bighorns-bear-brunt-domestic-sheep-public-lands

The articles indicate ranchers as the cause for all the killing. Are the articles wrong??


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## Avna

WildAbtHorses said:


> Interesting responses.
> 
> As we, mere mortals (Queens, Dictators, Queen-Dictators [very clever], Senators, commoners) bicker and fight over who should do what The Universe Supreme --Mother Nature, is going to hit-the-reset: floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, tsunamis --BOOM! with one colossal clash of thunder followed by the lighting-bolt...
> 
> --RESET completed.
> 
> Enough is Enough.
> 
> The horses and the environment need us to stop bickering and agree on a plan. Since slaughter is so controversial and the US Gov't has recently tightened restrictions on the slaughter of US horses, can we please continue brainstorming ideas?
> 
> YES! Arizona and Nevada, please keep fighting for your States rights, but in the meantime, let us work together for the 100,000 innocent horses and burros that need our help. When we fix the horse problem, we will stop the degradation of our public lands.
> 
> If you want the Federal Gov't to thin horse herds like they thin (sharpshoot) the deers at Valley Forge, get Congress to pass a law.
> 
> Of course, this is just my humble opinion.


If Congress does anything sane and sensible about wild horses, I will eat my hat, a nice Aussie-style felt. There are too many completely conflicting human interests. And believe me, Congress is only concerned with voters, publicity, and donations, not horses nor ecosystems. Even thought the very best solution for the ecosystem is to remove most of the horses, there is no market for them, whether for food or riding. Nor can a market be created on the scale needed. City people (most voters) will not allow responsible management, because it involves killing animals. City people fear and loathe death, I've noticed -- but only of the cute and photogenic, they care nothing at all about the ugly, scaly, and crawly. I'm not so big on death myself, but folks, Mother Nature does not agree. In the natural history of North America, at one time dozens of different species of horses throve and coexisted. They were the dominant herbivore genus. Then they ALL died out. Was this a tragedy? Nope. Just the world turning. Humans could take a few tips, when playing God.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Avna, unfortunately, you are correct, you won't be eating your nice Aussie-style felt hat any time soon. Yes, politics, politics, and politics seem to be the root cause. Our governing parties control us and our world. Vote!

Pasomountain, those articles are heartwrenching. Patch (Nov2018) domestic sheep vs. wild bighorn sheep with domestic winning. NatGeo (July2019) man is forced to manage natural migratory patterns of wild elk and bison. Yes, livestock seems to be winning over native elk, buffalo, sheep, wolves, coyotes, bear, cougars, bobcats, foxes,...

"Go Vegan?"


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*What to do with America's 100,000 excess of horses?*


----------



## bsms

pasomountain said:


> ....The articles indicate ranchers as the cause for all the killing. Are the articles wrong??


In a word? YES!

And those sorts of articles is why our management of mustangs is all screwed up.

"_This is what the public sees--millions of sheep and cattle on public lands. Only 100,000 wild horses and half are in pens...why can't you make room for a few horses instead of hogging millions of acres just for other livestock._"

First, there are nearly 150,000 mustangs total. But...millions of acres are not being hogged by livestock. Livestock are move on and OFF public lands. They pass THROUGH public lands. The ones I know of - Arizona and Utah - involve grazing for a few MONTHS, when there is plenty to eat.

Mustangs live there 12 months a year. And it is during the winter, when food is scarce, that the range is beaten down. Mustangs and livestock coexist in many areas, during the summer. Then the livestock are removed and the mustangs remain. During the winter.

Drought? The rancher is told to cut his numbers or to enter later or leave earlier. Mustangs? Still there. But the mustang enthusiasts, by and large, live in cities and don't own horses. They have never SEEN a wild mustang. And they know ZERO about managing range land. Nor do they want to learn!

Livestock are allowed to eat the excess and are controlled. To the day. Mustangs need to eat when there is no excess. And are uncontrolled.

"_The BLM’s Wild Horses and Burros program also removes thousands of federally protected horses and burros each year from designated wild horse habitat so that, during the ongoing drought, more water and forage are available for ranchers on public assistance._"

Lie. Simply a lie. A deliberate lie. When droughts come, it is the livestock that get removed BECAUSE THEY CAN BE! Unlike the mustangs.

"_but the reason there is no natural predators for horses is because many ranchers want the predators dead--right?_"

Wrong! When horses got loose in the West in the 1600s, they multiplied into the millions. Even in 1680, or 1750, when no white man had been there, the predators of North America were unable to control horse populations. Cougars and bears won't begin to control the growth of horse herds because even when no white man lived in the west, they could not do so. So how can they do so now?!

But activists make money blowing smoke up the rumps of people with no range or wildlife experience. Or knowledge of history.

"_It's not just predators being killed though. What about the buffalo, bighorn sheep, prairie dogs..._"

Really? We've reintroduced bighorn sheep in many areas. Buffalo are in no danger of being hunted down. Prairie dogs are in no danger either. From one of your links:

"_Domestic sheep transmit the deadly virus to bighorns when the two species mingle on public lands. Wildlife officials are supposed to make sure that wild and domestic sheep don't interact. But according to a trove of Colorado Parks and Wildlife documents recently obtained by High Country News, they mingle more frequently than previously known. And though failures on the part of ranchers, federal agencies and state wildlife managers are often to blame, it's always the bighorns that pay the price....Though their current population numbers pale in comparison to the distant past, *bighorn sheep appear to be expanding their range in southwest Colorado, a sign that the populations are healthy*._"

Now, here is the experience of a friend of mine with sheep. He used to run them through this area. They were present for about a week each year - yes, that is one WEEK a year:








His permit was revoked for fear that brief exposure of his sheep might harm bighorn populations. Twenty years later, disease swept through the area, killing most of the bighorn sheep. As my old college room mate put it, "_At least they can't blame me!_" But of course, they can. They always do. You can't get people to support you unless you are fighting "evil XXX".

In Utah, he says the grazing is simple. If it conflicts with the desires of hunters or city people, it is removed. Period. The idea that ranchers control government is silly. Not nearly enough votes or $$. Politicians follow votes.

Nor does predator control work the way you are told, but like most things on the range, it is hard to explain reality to people whose knowledge is based on activist websites. Who have never read a text on range management. Or talked to a single rancher. Or spent a single day on the land affected. 

"Yes, livestock seems to be winning over native elk, buffalo, sheep, wolves, coyotes, bear, cougars, bobcats, foxes,..." - @WildAbtHorses

Good grief! Step away from the Internet. Leave YouTube. Elk, buffalo, bighorns, coyotes, bears, cougars - there are MORE NOW than 30 years ago! Less grazing. Who is winning? I've had a 40 year history of loving the Manti Mountains in Utah. I've SEEN the changes. Predators are doing better - except the coyotes. Coyotes are starting to drop because the other predators are taking their place.

This is why I want BLM land handed over to the states. People who have never been IN a state want to say how the land is managed. The people who live there, who see things with their own eyes, whose families have been there for generations, are shouted down by YouTube.

My former room mate is the 5th generation living where he does. Two of his sons are taking over the ranch he built, and he looks forward to his grandsons someday ranching in the country he has lived in all of his life. Who loves the land more - the family who has lived there for generations or a long-term visitor like me? Someone who has ridden an estimated 50-60,000 miles during his life there, or someone like me who rides there every other year for a day?

And who cares more - someone like me, or someone who has never, ever seen the Manti Mountains?

Seems obvious to me, but I'm not a YouTube personality....:evil:

PS: My wife and I are still seriously considering moving to Ritchfield Utah to be closer to that mountain range. Part of me wants to spend my remaining life close to it. Maybe, just maybe, I care in a way folks who have never been in Utah do not.

Also - last week, we drove from Show Low AZ through Globe and then on home. Even after all my years in Arizona, I forget how VAST the forests of Arizona are. It is humbling. They go on for mile after mile after mile. As far as you can see. How many people outside of Arizona even know?

PSS: @Avna, I agree! It is frustrating, not being ABLE to play God. But this world is so much bigger than us. I'll eat the sweaty Canadian Tilley hat in my avatar. But it's pretty safe...:evil:


----------



## COWCHICK77

So who are people going to blame when livestock is off public ground?


----------



## Filou

SilverMaple said:


> We have to decrease the population, especially of aged horses in the holding pens.


You don't think they are just trying to stale mate this till most of those guys pass naturally? 

I always wonder how long they can sustain the budget they have now.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Picture in Modic County, CA.

Guess which side is the riparian maintained by a livestock permit holder who is on the permit for a limited amount of days and required to keep cattle off stream banks?

Which side is the wild horses on who are not maintained?


----------



## COWCHICK77

Avna said:


> If I were Dictator-Queen I would shoot or poison every wild horse on the ranges except a handful of the best. Yes, I really would. And then I would manage the herds very tightly -- all rounded up every year for doctoring and culling, the few best stallions and bands of the best producing mares, the foals all pulled off when weaned and either culled (killed), trained and sold, or kept for breeding purposes (turned out on to the range. The total number at any time would be way below carrying capacity.
> 
> And I would not take public opinion into account in the slightest (dictator-queen, remember?)
> 
> The present combination of ignorance, greed, sentimentality, bureaucracy, politics, and economic realities are destroying the ecosystem, which is vastly more important than any single species it supports, including horses.


Completely agree!

This is what my grandpa did before the government took over "management". And so did a lot of other ranchers!

He bought nice breeding stock to turn out with them. They'd gather them, cull and start the colts for ranch horses. Turn them back out.

They used to be nice looking horses but year's of pulling out the nice ones and leaving the junk no one wants has produced the jug headed, weedy, pot-bellied, sunken butt-hole horses many are now. 

It costs just as much to feed a bad horse as it does a good one. Or ugly as a pretty one.


----------



## Avna

Well ... I think the whole world except for cattle ranchers and feedlot owners would be a lot better off if we ate a lot less beef. Really, in every measurable way. I'm not the only one. 

And, @bsms is wrong about one thing -- it isn't money that drives activism. It's passionate zeal for a cause. Which is far, far worse, because if it was just money they could always be bought off. 

People who have half a molecule of compassion and awareness know that the way human beings are consuming the world in an orgy of greed and destruction is, um, wrong. They want to DO something, they want to join with others and effect change. But unless you are a trained environmental scientist, you probably going to gravitate toward what feeds your emotions, your heart, not what is actually useful and reality-based. How many trained environmental scientists are turning the wheels of activism? Precious few, because unless your speciality is cute or noble or something, nobody is going to listen to you. 

My science lesson anecdote, which I've trotted out before: at lunch with a couple of actual wildlife biologists. I mentioned that my little fish pond was deafening with frogs that spring. Cool! they both said. But then, I went on, a hatch of garter snakes moved in, itty bitty snakes, and over a couple weeks they ate every single frog. Then they left. Cool! the biologists both said. What a great story!

Personally I thought it was a rather _sad_ story because I love frogs. But they didn't see it that way at all. They didn't have any favorites. They just loved watching Nature go. Nature has no favorites.


----------



## SilverMaple

The percentage of beef consumed in this country that is actually out on BLM land is rather small. The vast majority of beef is raised in feedlots and confinements or midwest farms/pastures on only a few acres. Removing livestock entirely from public lands would not overly affect the meat market in this country long-term. But, it would affect the ranching families who have lived on the land for generations, and it would affect the sacred western image of the cowboy tending cattle on the ranges, which has become quintessential to the American thought process of western lands. And therein lies a quandary--- do we remove livestock from the lands since city people blame the ranchers, and then let the land get ruined even worse with no management by people who actually have a vested interest in maintaining it, or do we let a few 'greedy ranchers' have hundreds of thousands of acres that they PAY FOR and remove some of the wildlife so it can still be used for grazing?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

A wild horse in a trailer for 10 hours. That sounds like a very long time.

Published June 2019

https://thehorse.com/174461/can-you-care-for-wild-horses-blm-seeks-off-range-corral-bids/

The BLM said it will award contracts to facilities in Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming that can accommodate 500-3,500 wild horses and burros in safe, humane conditions. Corrals will serve as short-term holding and preparation facilities for animals to be transferred to off-range pastures or adoption and sale locations further east.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

From 2009 - BLM’s long-term holding facilities


----------



## Avna

SilverMaple said:


> The percentage of beef consumed in this country that is actually out on BLM land is rather small. The vast majority of beef is raised in feedlots and confinements or midwest farms/pastures on only a few acres. Removing livestock entirely from public lands would not overly affect the meat market in this country long-term. But, it would affect the ranching families who have lived on the land for generations, and it would affect the sacred western image of the cowboy tending cattle on the ranges, which has become quintessential to the American thought process of western lands. And therein lies a quandary--- do we remove livestock from the lands since city people blame the ranchers, and then let the land get ruined even worse with no management by people who actually have a vested interest in maintaining it, or do we let a few 'greedy ranchers' have hundreds of thousands of acres that they PAY FOR and remove some of the wildlife so it can still be used for grazing?


I agree ... but there are probably more than two options.


----------



## gottatrot

Coyotes and cougars are doing fine in Oregon, with steadily increasing populations. There are around 300,000 coyotes, and they kill over 4,000 sheep yearly. There are around 6,600 cougars, and that number has been going up for many years.

Many of our coyotes are in urban areas and kill off a considerable number of domestic cats. I was told recently that if you drive through one of our gated communities at night, you'll see all the coyotes' eyes reflecting in your headlights. We hear them howling a lot.

Our holding pens look nothing like what is in that video. They are essentially dry lots crowded with horses. In my opinion euthanasia is much more humane than living long term in holding pens. There is a ton of fighting over hay as you might imagine, considering the issues we deal with on a much smaller scale, trying to feed horses in pastures. Horses have bite marks and injuries from being kicked, which are treated only if they are very serious.

There is no consideration taken for horses that need more feed or less, which is critical. There is no dental care, and the most rudimentary of hoof care. Most horses will begin to deteriorate health wise in that type of setting after a short period of time. 

Some people believe mustangs don't need dental care. That is only true when they are in the wild, ranging over many acres of land and grazing off abrasive surfaces. Once they are put in a dry lot on just hay, their teeth do not get that constant wear from pulling on grasses and so deteriorate and develop sharp points just like any other domestic horse.


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## WildAbtHorses

"It should have never been allowed to get this bad." I think we all agree with mred.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

"the brutality of these holding pens is well documented in this video"
https://wildhorseproject.org/blm-pens/

I have not watched.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

This topic is so controversial.

How should it be presented to the public for their approval and by whom?
Does this initiative require an advertising campaign?


----------



## Filou

Long term storage is the pastures in OK. 
Here's a shot of them in the first minute of the video. 






The other corrals are the holding pens to prepare animals or where they wait till they are old enough to go to the pastures. They just die out there from whatever their natural cause will be.


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## Filou

Sorry... 2x post.


----------



## mred

I saw two articles. One said 850 mares, the other said 1600 horses. So what do they do with the other 50,000 in holding pens. One article said it costs about $50,000 per horse for their life time.
The only way to get enough land in the mid-west or east is to shut down farm land. I am glad that at least some of the horses are in pastures. But this is a feel good thing for the BLM. They don't have the money or the land to save all of them. We need to save the good ones. Open up the slaughter houses again. Make it legal for permitted cowboys to gather a number of horses from the range and take to sales. That would help to control the population in the wild. Very little cost. Dispose of the ones in pens that will never be adopted. Zoos are a good cause. Use the money that is saved to help provide water to the west. Let the states and local people manage most of the land. The local people know what it will take. People in the east think the old west was like to movies.


----------



## pasomountain

bsms said:


> In a word? YES!
> 
> And those sorts of articles is why our management of mustangs is all screwed up.
> 
> "_This is what the public sees--millions of sheep and cattle on public lands. Only 100,000 wild horses and half are in pens...why can't you make room for a few horses instead of hogging millions of acres just for other livestock._"
> 
> First, there are nearly 150,000 mustangs total. But...millions of acres are not being hogged by livestock. Livestock are move on and OFF public lands. They pass THROUGH public lands. The ones I know of - Arizona and Utah - involve grazing for a few MONTHS, when there is plenty to eat.
> 
> Mustangs live there 12 months a year. And it is during the winter, when food is scarce, that the range is beaten down. Mustangs and livestock coexist in many areas, during the summer. Then the livestock are removed and the mustangs remain. During the winter.
> 
> Drought? The rancher is told to cut his numbers or to enter later or leave earlier. Mustangs? Still there. But the mustang enthusiasts, by and large, live in cities and don't own horses. They have never SEEN a wild mustang. And they know ZERO about managing range land. Nor do they want to learn!
> 
> Livestock are allowed to eat the excess and are controlled. To the day. Mustangs need to eat when there is no excess. And are uncontrolled.
> 
> "_The BLM’s Wild Horses and Burros program also removes thousands of federally protected horses and burros each year from designated wild horse habitat so that, during the ongoing drought, more water and forage are available for ranchers on public assistance._"
> 
> Lie. Simply a lie. A deliberate lie. When droughts come, it is the livestock that get removed BECAUSE THEY CAN BE! Unlike the mustangs.
> 
> "_but the reason there is no natural predators for horses is because many ranchers want the predators dead--right?_"
> 
> Wrong! When horses got loose in the West in the 1600s, they multiplied into the millions. Even in 1680, or 1750, when no white man had been there, the predators of North America were unable to control horse populations. Cougars and bears won't begin to control the growth of horse herds because even when no white man lived in the west, they could not do so. So how can they do so now?!
> 
> But activists make money blowing smoke up the rumps of people with no range or wildlife experience. Or knowledge of history.
> 
> "_It's not just predators being killed though. What about the buffalo, bighorn sheep, prairie dogs..._"
> 
> Really? We've reintroduced bighorn sheep in many areas. Buffalo are in no danger of being hunted down. Prairie dogs are in no danger either. From one of your links:
> 
> "_Domestic sheep transmit the deadly virus to bighorns when the two species mingle on public lands. Wildlife officials are supposed to make sure that wild and domestic sheep don't interact. But according to a trove of Colorado Parks and Wildlife documents recently obtained by High Country News, they mingle more frequently than previously known. And though failures on the part of ranchers, federal agencies and state wildlife managers are often to blame, it's always the bighorns that pay the price....Though their current population numbers pale in comparison to the distant past, *bighorn sheep appear to be expanding their range in southwest Colorado, a sign that the populations are healthy*._"
> 
> Now, here is the experience of a friend of mine with sheep. He used to run them through this area. They were present for about a week each year - yes, that is one WEEK a year:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His permit was revoked for fear that brief exposure of his sheep might harm bighorn populations. Twenty years later, disease swept through the area, killing most of the bighorn sheep. As my old college room mate put it, "_At least they can't blame me!_" But of course, they can. They always do. You can't get people to support you unless you are fighting "evil XXX".
> 
> In Utah, he says the grazing is simple. If it conflicts with the desires of hunters or city people, it is removed. Period. The idea that ranchers control government is silly. Not nearly enough votes or $$. Politicians follow votes.
> 
> Nor does predator control work the way you are told, but like most things on the range, it is hard to explain reality to people whose knowledge is based on activist websites. Who have never read a text on range management. Or talked to a single rancher. Or spent a single day on the land affected.
> 
> "Yes, livestock seems to be winning over native elk, buffalo, sheep, wolves, coyotes, bear, cougars, bobcats, foxes,..." - @*WildAbtHorses*
> 
> Good grief! Step away from the Internet. Leave YouTube. Elk, buffalo, bighorns, coyotes, bears, cougars - there are MORE NOW than 30 years ago! Less grazing. Who is winning? I've had a 40 year history of loving the Manti Mountains in Utah. I've SEEN the changes. Predators are doing better - except the coyotes. Coyotes are starting to drop because the other predators are taking their place.
> 
> This is why I want BLM land handed over to the states. People who have never been IN a state want to say how the land is managed. The people who live there, who see things with their own eyes, whose families have been there for generations, are shouted down by YouTube.
> 
> My former room mate is the 5th generation living where he does. Two of his sons are taking over the ranch he built, and he looks forward to his grandsons someday ranching in the country he has lived in all of his life. Who loves the land more - the family who has lived there for generations or a long-term visitor like me? Someone who has ridden an estimated 50-60,000 miles during his life there, or someone like me who rides there every other year for a day?
> 
> And who cares more - someone like me, or someone who has never, ever seen the Manti Mountains?
> 
> Seems obvious to me, but I'm not a YouTube personality....:evil:
> 
> PS: My wife and I are still seriously considering moving to Ritchfield Utah to be closer to that mountain range. Part of me wants to spend my remaining life close to it. Maybe, just maybe, I care in a way folks who have never been in Utah do not.
> 
> Also - last week, we drove from Show Low AZ through Globe and then on home. Even after all my years in Arizona, I forget how VAST the forests of Arizona are. It is humbling. They go on for mile after mile after mile. As far as you can see. How many people outside of Arizona even know?



Thanks for your detailed response--It's good seeing the other side of this issue. 

I do understand your love for AZ and UT! AZ has many cool places but southern Utah has my heart. We always took a motel in Kanab because it was centrally located to all the places we wanted to go. It's true that nobody can fully appreciate it unless they've been there--when we stopped on 1-70 I actually felt like I was standing on holy ground. The beauty and even the atmosphere is just so different and special. 

The Desert Bighorn are doing well. Took pix of this guy right by the road in Zion. There was a tour bus parked with a bunch of tourists there also--he just ignored us! I was so excited to get these pix. :smile:


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Reference Links: Documentaries, Articles, Statistics, YouTubers*

https://spark.adobe.com/page/X4iUELN4t5sqY/


----------



## WildAbtHorses

RE: Excess Wild Horses in America

How do we get all Americans to engage and participate in the resolution of the 100,000 excess wild horses & burros? American's need to understand that all Americans own these horses, and are responsible for their health and well-being. American's need to "do right" by these beautiful and iconic animals.

mred 8/9/19 10:25AM "trained horses go to slaughter sales everyday. The backyard bleeders today are still producing foals that no one wants."

Hondo 8/9/19 11:43AM "it is not possible to humanely slaughter them due to their very high fear level"

One hundred thousand (100,000) horses with each costing $50,000 over its life and are they getting the proper care? A continuous (24x7x365) supply of fresh water, feed, and grazing. These wild horses in captivity require hoofs (farriers) every six (6) weeks and dental checks (vets). Are these required health-care services happening? Are they included in the $50,000 cost?

Where are these horses located? The BLM only has holding capacity for a maximum of 17,000. See mred 8/13/19 9:06AM post.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Chincoteague and Assateague Wild Ponies

Is the Chincoteague Pony population controlled?

On average around 60 to 70 new foals are born every spring in the herd on the Virginia side of Assateague Island. Approximately 75 percent of the mature mares have foals each year, a relatively high foaling rate for wild horses. A mare can become pregnant again once her foal has stopped nursing. And with an 11 month gestational cycle many of the mares are pregnant almost year around!

The Chincoteague Volunteer Fire Company, who owns and manages the Virginia herd, maintains the herd size at about 150 adult ponies. The Fire Company controls the size of the herd by auctioning off most of the foals at the annual Pony Auction in July. Each year just a few select foals are designated as 'buybacks'. A buyback pony is auctioned with the stipulation that it will be donated back to the Fire Company and returned to Assateague Island to replenish the herd. The winner of a buyback pony gets to name the pony before it is returned to Assateague Island to live out its life there. Buyback ponies have actually become some of the highest priced foals sold at the auction.

There is another herd of Ponies on the Maryland side of Assateague Island, separated by a fence across the Island at the Maryland-Virginia state line. The National Park Services uses a contraceptive vaccine to control overpopulation. The vaccine is delivered by a dart to the hindquarters of selected mares each spring to prevent pregnancy.

Chincoteague Pony FAQ


----------



## bsms

^^ 150 adult ponies on a 14,000 acre (22 sq miles) wildlife preserve to manage, versus 90,000 spread across the Intermountain west.


----------



## SilverMaple

The Chincoteague ponies are also much easier to rehome. They've been around people and are pretty gentle to start with. They'll come up to visitors to the island and lined the fences during Pony Penning soliciting attention. Far different than a Nevada mustang that would sooner kick your head off than let you touch him.


----------



## phantomhorse13

WildAbtHorses said:


> One hundred thousand (100,000) horses with each costing $50,000 over its life and are they getting the proper care? A continuous (24x7x365) supply of fresh water, feed, and grazing. These wild horses in captivity require hoofs (farriers) every six (6) weeks and dental checks (vets). Are these required health-care services happening? Are they included in the $50,000 cost?


I cannot imagine any horse in a holding pen is getting its feet trimmed or having dental checks. How would you suggest doing those things on a feral animal that weighs 800+ pounds? 




WildAbtHorses said:


> A mare can become pregnant again once her foal has stopped nursing.


Not sure how much stock I would put in information including this gem, as this was obviously written by someone with no horse breeding experience.


----------



## COWCHICK77

There is quite a bit of misinformation and misconception on the internet pertaining to the horses, at least in Nevada and coming from a person who lives here it really is frustrating to read and let alone realize people believe it.

As someone who raises cattle here, I don't want all the horses gone or all predators. 
Will I shoot a coyote harassing first calf heifers calving, you bet. But that doesn't mean I shoot them all. There are plenty of coyotes here. I also know they keep the jackrabbit population in control. There is a balance! I get that, I don't want to get rid of every living creature.
I have been stalked by coyotes and mountain lions. Coyotes fighting my dogs trying to gather cattle in the high country. Horses ran through our wrangle field fence and killed a big Pyrenees dog by a mountain lion. Trapper killed the mountain lion. Issue was too many lions in a small area, lions have a territory of 30+ miles. 

Wildlife follows the cows. The Sage Chicken was on the endangered list. You know where to find them and mating?
Following the cows water tank to water tank. 
When my grandpa was kicked off his lease, the cows left and so did the wildlife they thought they were saving. They let him come back. (This was back in the 50s)
Cow numbers are decreasing on public land yet the horse numbers are increasing. 

I don't understand the concept of sacrificing land and feed for the population of horses alive and breeding that very few want to adopt at the price of hurting the horses themselves, wildlife and livestock who provide a lively hood and just as much a part of western lifestyle/image supposedly as the horse advocates want to protect.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

The GoFund request are for two horses (pintaloosa and grey quarter horse - names unknown) currently at a Texas’ kill pen and are headed to Mexico. Didn’t the US just pass a law that horses could no longer be sent to Mexico or Canada for slaughter?

Olivia found these dear horses on Lone Star auction Facebook page. She is going to transport them from Texas to Indiana and they will be boarded are a stable near her.

This horse world is too full of heartaches for me. I gave to Olivia’s GoFund to rescue the horses. Naive?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Managing Herds*

If “we” get these HMA’s AMLs to were they should be... volunteer horse wranglers could be hired to manage the herds?

“Volunteer Fire Company, who owns and manages the Virginia herd, maintains the herd size at about 150 adult ponies.”


----------



## SilverMaple

WildAbtHorses said:


> The GoFund request are for two horses (pintaloosa and grey quarter horse - names unknown) currently at a Texas’ kill pen and are headed to Mexico. Didn’t the US just pass a law that horses could no longer be sent to Mexico or Canada for slaughter?
> 
> Olivia found these dear horses on Lone Star auction Facebook page. She is going to transport them from Texas to Indiana and they will be boarded are a stable near her.
> 
> This horse world is too full of heartaches for me. I gave to Olivia’s GoFund to rescue the horses. Naive?


There's no law you can't export to Mexico or Canada for slaughter; you just can't slaughter in the US.


----------



## SilverMaple

phantomhorse13 said:


> I cannot imagine any horse in a holding pen is getting its feet trimmed or having dental checks. How would you suggest doing those things on a feral animal that weighs 800+ pounds?


Last I saw, they would dart the horses, and once down, rope and hog tie them so they didn't struggle when the drug wore off, trim hooves and vaccinate. It was done I think twice a year? Horses were left tied until they were fully awake, then let up.


----------



## bsms

WildAbtHorses said:


> If “we” get these HMA’s AMLs to were they should be... volunteer horse wranglers could be hired to manage the herds?...”


You do not appreciate the size of the west. Or how few people live in 90% of Nevada, where over half the horses are. In the image below, the red dot is roughly where I live (too crowded, Tucson keeps growing and satellite communities appear). The two white crosses are the prime areas I'm thinking of moving to. Not Nevada. I've spent very little time there and don't know the state well enough to have any idea where would be good.

And apart from Reno and Las Vegas, Nevada - like much of the west - is dark.








One side does not look like the other:








Until you spend hours going 60+ mph on a state highway without seeing a place to eat...you do not, CANNOT, understand the west. Where I went for my vacation a couple of weeks ago. A number of those towns have populations below 5,000:








Not the Volunteer Fire Department - or volunteer - size country, and much of it requires traveling on foot.


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## SilverMaple

You can quite literally drive for hours in parts of the West and never see another car, person, or place to stop.


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## WildAbtHorses

Focusing on Nevada.

1988: 26,160 wild horses and 1,318 burros.
2019: 43,281 wild horses and 4,187 burros.

Target Healthy Population/Ecosystem: 12,811 wild horses.

110,567 square miles.
Human Population:
2019: 3.9 million
a 7% increase from 2010 to 2015?
Average age: 37 and male/female about 50/50.

Okay, Nevada is the 7th largest state in the US and one of the most sparsely populated (except for Reno & Las Vegas).

all info from Google searches (so if incorrect blame Google)


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## WildAbtHorses

This image is three maps in one of Nevada:
1. topographic map
2. road map
3. horse herd map (purple)

The little squares represents 30-square-miles of wild horse herd territory. Each of the proposed 18 would be remote Nevada Outposts with eight (8) team members in each:
1. A-Darter
2. Photographer (includes videos)
3. Social Media
4. Veterinarian
5. Hunter (butcher)
6. Cook, cleaner, office manager
7. Horse Trainer
8. Stable Hand

https://www.horseforum.com/members/279795/album/wildabthorses-18181/nevadamap-18-129961.jpg


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## WildAbtHorses




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## WildAbtHorses

The outposts will be prefabricated and be air-lifted into place.

The outposts will accommodate ten (10) staff and four (4) guests ($3,000 per week per guest) plus an in-law suite (one-million for a one year lease). Need two (2) ecosystem researchers too.

Guests can choose to hike out, horseback out, or be air-lifted out.

Drones will drop off daily/weekly supplies, mail, etc.

The capture and reporting of standardized data will be transmitted daily to a central hub, and the hub's staff will correlate and publish statistics online.

Each of the eighteen (18) Nevada outposts will post daily to their Outpost #? YouTube Channel (another revenue stream) and if/when possible Livestream.

Even if the project-setup-costs ten (10) million, the potential revenues from rentals and leases could exceed eighteen (18) million.


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## WildAbtHorses

AND most IMPORTANTLY the horses would be humanely thinned (all 30,000 extra)... saving the US Gov't high costs of helicopters and more holding pens. This would be a win-win-win. The public should be able to support it, it will be a great way to gather research and save the ecosystems (and Nevada), and it is a very humane way to handle the wild horse populations.


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## WildAbtHorses

Determining best time to remove foals for action and to administer birth control to mares.

Spanish Wild Ponies:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottok
"October after weaning"

Chincoteague Wild Ponies:
"auctioning off most of the foals at the annual Pony Auction in July."

Australian Camels:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_feral_camel
this is NOT what the Nevada Outpost proposal is for: "[Australian's] removed 11,560 feral camels in 280 operational hours over 12 days, over 45,000 square kilometres, at a cost of around $30 per head."

"estimates that A$4 million per year is required to maintain current population levels." A is for AUS the Australian dollar. Current Population: 300,000 camels with annual 10% increase.

Live camels are occasionally exported...
they are used as tourists attractions...


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## WildAbtHorses

*1.5 minute News Coverage - Wild Mustangs*


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## WildAbtHorses

*Nevada’s Wild Horse Outpost-to-Outpost*

Similar to New Hampshire’s Hut-to-Hut in the White Mountains.


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## Hondo

Good stuff. Keep posting.


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## WildAbtHorses

Hondo, thank you. I do believe we’ve come along way... I know I have.

Here is one of Canada’s Hut-to-Hut.

Eagle Walz architecture of Canada’s Sunshine Trail Hut-to-Hut.
Sunshine Coast Trail 7 days 6 nights Powell River to Lang Bay ? Nomadic Patty


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## WildAbtHorses

just another “selling” point to this idea is “the dry desert air makes for bright stars”

Texas Parks and Towns Embrace Movement to Darken the Night Sky
https://www.texastribune.org/2012/10/25/texas-parks-towns-embrace-dark-sky-movement/


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## WildAbtHorses

I was wondering how and why I became so intense on America's Wild Horses...

I reviewed my e-mails and back in January 2019 I watched this YouTube video "of reunified pair wild mustangs but that still leaves 60,000 in pens"


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## WildAbtHorses

I ran some Google searches and read:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/opinion/wild-west-horses.html

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/features/environment/wild-horses-part-two/

https://americanwildhorsecampaign.org/problem

and that is what started me... This just breaks my heart. *Our tax dollars should be used to solve problems not to create them. It would be great to create a viral campaign that helps promote the proposed solutions. If all Americans got behind the solution!?!

and then I saw that BLM's Advisors were meeting in July and the rest of my journey is recorded here on Horse Forum.


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## Hondo

Just a little note on reality check here. In real life wild herds of horses, there isn't much of what I would call family life. The herds are basically harems of mares where the stallion physically prevents any from leaving. The male offspring are driven from the harem by the stallion by the time they reach the age of two. For protection, the young two year olds must find a band of bachelor stallions to join.


The older bachelor stallions in the bachelor herd frequently challenge harem stallions for the possession of the mares. I personally witnessed this when spending a good deal of time in the Pinenut Mountains in Nevada. There was one herd that I would come across a few times each week. One day the herd was reduced in size. A few days later I saw the missing mares with another stallion. Then a couple of weeks later I saw the old stallion alone hopping along on three legs. I concluded he had suffered a decisive blow to a front leg by the challenging stallion.


Later I did witness the entire herd back together with the new stallion.


That's how it is in real life.


Horses do bond however and are happy to see old friends when reunited. I have also witnessed that having almost lived with a herd of 20 for five years.


Horses like humans are very adaptable to living in varied surroundings and conditions. My impression though is that they do not adapt well to the BLM holding pens and are not what could be termed happy in those conditions.


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## WildAbtHorses

Wow! Hondo what a great experience. To be so close to a herd and witness their life in the wild. Yes, Mustangs should not be in pens.

“the solution is NOT pen-them-up!”


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## WildAbtHorses

We need PBS to report on the situation every week until the public is educated and the Government takes action steps that will resolve the immediate issues and will correctly manage the herds long-term.

J Winburn is doing a great job with her mustang. Lots of you folks aren’t going to be happy with her understanding of the problems.

“Why I Adobted A Wild Mustang” J Winburn


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## bsms

Step away from YouTube.

_"On average, a domestic horse has a lifespan of 15-20 years, only half the 30-40 year average lifespan of a wild horse."

"...dropped to less than 30,000"_

Clueless people making videos in their bedrooms do not help anything. Couldn't hear her very well. My hearing is shot from 25 years around jet engines. But what I could hear...was someone emoting in her bedroom without any understanding of the issues, the environment, history, biology, etc. She doesn't know what she doesn't know. YouTube has its uses, but overall is a drain on the IQ of America.


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## gottatrot

bsms said:


> _"On average, a domestic horse has a lifespan of 15-20 years, only half the 30-40 year average lifespan of a wild horse."
> _


The gal in the video has that almost exactly backwards. In her defense, this information seems to be available on searches from several websites. 

In studies, wild horses are far less likely to make it to older than 20, and we all know many domestic horses that have made it to age 30 or more. My friend's 32 year old horse is still giving lessons, doing low level jumping competitions and trail rides. I have a 28 year old mare.

According to the National Park service, feral horses on Cumberland Island in Georgia only live about 10 years.
One study I read regarding mustangs said in the wild, the average lifespan for a mare was 7 years. If given contraceptives, this increased to almost 20 years. Having foals without any vet intervention is risky business. Stallions also kill each other quite often, through wounds/infections or broken bones. Any animal that loses a tooth or has a hoof issue will also soon die. 20 years is still a lot shorter than the average domestic horse will live.


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## bsms

George Schaller did a classic study on lions. IIRC, he wrote that lions in the wild didn't die of old age. Fighting and injuries hunting killed them long before they got old. Horses are not hunters, but winters are harsh. No one does their teeth. Even a minor injury can become infected. Life in the wild:










https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...l-escaping-clutches-two-hungry-lionesses.html​
That doesn't mean all horses (or lions) should be kept in captivity. But it ain't Bambi out there. The movie "Born Free" came out when I was a kid. It played a role in my becoming a biologist...if an often unemployed biologist who got tired of being chased by bill collectors. I still love the movie. The actors seem like a really nice couple (they were married in real life). But it was also selling the MYTH.






Hope you don't mind my going off topic for a moment, but I doubt WildAbtHorses will mind hearing about people who cared:

Bill Travers - "_While deep behind enemy lines, Major Travers was struck by malaria and volunteered to be left behind in a native Burmese village. To avoid capture, he disguised himself as a Chinese national and walked hundreds of miles through jungle territory until he reached an Allied position.

In 1945, Travers was promoted to the rank of major, and he joined Force 136 Special Operations Executive and was parachuted into Malaya. Travers was responsible for training and tactical decisions with the main resistance movement, the communist-led Malayan People’s Anti-Japanese Army (MPAJA).

Travers was one of the first allied operatives to enter the Japanese city of Hiroshima after the dropping of the atomic bomb. He wrote about his experience in his diary, registering profound horror at the destruction and loss of life. Major Travers left the armed forces in 1947....

...Travers' most famous film role came when he played game warden George Adamson in the highly successful 1966 film Born Free, about which experience the two co-wrote the book On Playing with Lions. He co-starred with McKenna and the experience made him and his wife very conscious of the many abuses of wild animals in captivity that had been taken from Africa and other natural environments around the world. _" - Wiki 

Virginia McKenna - "_McKenna is best remembered for her 1966 role as Joy Adamson in the true-life film Born Free for which she received a nomination for a Golden Globe. It was not only a huge success at the box office but a life changing experience for her and Bill Travers who co-starred with her, portraying game warden George Adamson. The experience led them to become active supporters for wild animal rights as well as the protection of their natural habitat.

McKenna and Travers starred in another animal themed story, Ring of Bright Water (1969), but it failed to match Born Free's success.

McKenna appeared in An Elephant Called Slowly. The film features her close friend conservationist George Adamson and also elephants Eleanor (brought up by conservationist Daphne Sheldrick) and young Pole Pole. The subsequent premature death of Pole Pole in London Zoo led to McKenna and her husband to establish Zoo Check in 1984 with their eldest son Will Travers[12]. Zoo Check was renamed Born Free Foundation in 1991. In 1984 McKenna was involved with a protest against the poor conditions at Southampton Zoo which was closed a year later._" - Wiki











The Virginia McKenna Award for Compassionate Conservation​
Sometimes we need a bit of myth to inspire us to be better than reality.


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## Hondo

While the young lady made a mistake on the lifespan of horses as measured by the atomic clock, by other perspectives, perhaps not so much.


A once upon a time, a setter of a Salt Lake Flats world speed record was quoted saying something on the order of, "You can live more in 5 seconds on a motorcycle than some people live in an entire lifetime".


While I would not attempt to defend his quote, it does provide another perspective. Who was it that said, "Give me liberty or give me death"?


I do not think it fair to refer to the young lady as clueless when it would appear that she is at least trying to do something positive.


I think many of us on this forum and this thread were way way short on knowledge in several areas at the beginning of our horse journey and made many a misteak And that most definitely includes me. Many began their horse journey before ever even touching a horse. But to refer to anyone as clueless is in my mind is both arrogant and ruthless and just not following the spirit that the Horseforum wishes to be followed by it's participants.


The young lady in reference may be lacking in knowledge is some areas or in many areas. But she is obviously not clueless.


Sorry, but I felt not to offer her at least some defense would be unacceptable.



Surely there is something positive to be found in the young ladies video.


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## WildAbtHorses

I love J Winburn's video for many reasons and I admire her talent with wild mustangs! She made the video because she wants to educate the public about the sad state of America's wild horses in the wild and in pens.

Hondo, I agree with you! But I'm pretty sure bsms did not mean any disrespect to J Winburn personally. bsms like the rest of us are just frustrated because the public has not been provided real and unbiased information on the situation. 

I want to invite her to join the discussion. J Winburn can help us... help the horses... by educating the youth. J Winburn has ~20,000 subscribers! She's young, talented, and loves horses! She may be the catalyst that we've been looking for... the one person that will make a difference and implement good positive change in the lives of the wild horses.


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## WildAbtHorses

Thanks, I rewatched the Born Free trailer and cried "She was born free! She has a right to be free!" Yes, I love the movie too!


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## bsms

Wanting to do something positive when one knows nothing is a recipe for disaster. There is a reason we have 90,000 mustangs on the range and another 50,000 in holding pens: People who know how to manage the range are not allowed to do so where it involves mustangs.

We KNOW how to manage mustang herds. We do not manage them because people with no knowledge are allowed to tie the hands of professionals. We have a disaster on our hands due to political activity by well meaning but utterly uninformed (clueless) people.


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## WildAbtHorses

You can rant and rave and throw as many tantrums as you want it won't get you what you want. Where are your Action Steps to convince Congress? To educate the public? Where are your long-term solutions outlined? Solutions that can be accepted and implemented. Yes, you need to appease the common man.

Yes, Congress is acting in their own best interest (Votes not Horses). We need to change that to horses-best-interest over politics. Compromise is the only way -we need to do it now for the sake of the horses!

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead


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## WildAbtHorses

*Wild Horses in Pens vs. Adopted vs. Sold 2001-2011 chart*

Wild Horses: More Than Just Natural Beauty? May 19, 2015 By Bonnie J Blevins, Hollins University
https://youngzine.org/news/our-earth/wild-horses-more-just-natural-beauty


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## WildAbtHorses

"Give me liberty, or give me death!" - Patrick Henry March 23, 1775. Henry is credited with having swung the balance in convincing the convention to pass a resolution delivering Virginian troops for the Revolutionary War. Among the delegates to the convention were future U.S. Presidents Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Give_me_liberty,_or_give_me_death!

“These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.” -Thomas Paine 1776.

Is it time for another American Revolution? The United States Government is no longer a government of the people for the people?

"that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom — and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." -President Abraham Lincoln Gettysburg Address November 19, 1863.


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## WildAbtHorses

"Branded for Success: Wild Mustangs to Best Friends" by Elisa Wallace 

Elisa does a great job with her mustangs and vblogging


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## WildAbtHorses

Yes, in the pens horses kick other horses -- fractured jaw from kick by Elisa Wallace

X-Rays and Tag Removal | 2019 Mustang TIP Challenge (see 2:30 to 5:30 minutes - reviewing jaw X-rays)


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## WildAbtHorses

*Nevada Representatives only want to hear from Nevada residents*

If you want to be part of the solution, email them and ask them to join the discussion, please:

Dina Titus
https://titus.house.gov/contact/email-me

Mark Amodei
https://amodei.house.gov/email-me/

Steven Horsford
https://horsford.house.gov/contact

Susie Lee
https://susielee.house.gov/zip-code-lookup?form=/contact/email-me


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## Filou

Please beware what Elisa did to her horse at Badminton 2017...

Some people may be good horse trainers. They may post videos of them training their horses when it looks good. But that doesn't mean that they are good horsemen/women. I used to love Elisa, now I just like her. What she did was messed up.


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## WildAbtHorses

Good to know. I looked it up and found:

The Wallace Eventing owner from Jasper, GA adds, “I’m disappointed in myself for letting down my horse, my country, and my sport. I should have pulled him up. And I agree with the Ground Jury giving me a yellow card.”

Wallace adds she will never make the mistake again. “I am lucky we are both unscathed.”
https://horseauthority.co/elisa-wallace-yellow-carded-badminton/

I image being at the Olympics level makes you very competitive. A lesson learned the hard way. She is amazing with the mustangs. Yes, still like her. life is full of tough lessons.


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## WildAbtHorses




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## WildAbtHorses

Contacting schools in Nevada to-get-involved in long-term caring for Nevada's Wild Horses and Burros:

Advanced Technologies Academy
West Career and Technical Academy
Las Vegas Academy of the Arts
Coral Academy Charter School Secondary
Northwest Career and Technical Academy
Veterans Tribute Career Technical Academy
Coral Academy of Science Las Vegas
Southwest Career and Technical Academy
Incline High School
Academy of Art Careers and Technology


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## WildAbtHorses

Contacting colleges and universities in Nevada (school newspapers, biology, humanities, mathematics):
University of Nevada, Reno
Nevada State College
University of Nevada, Las Vegas
Great Basin College
Western Nevada College
Sierra Nevada College
Roseman University of Health Sciences
Truckee Meadows Community College
College of Southern Nevada
Career College of Northern Nevada
Touro University Nevada
Altierus Career Colleges
Northwest Career College


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## mred

Read this article https://www.equinerescuefrance.org/2011/06/why-horse-slaughter-is-necessary/ 

The good people of this country caused the problems with all surplus horses and will not face up to what it will take to correct it. Most of the laws that were passed to protect animals were done by people that have never even been around any. This is why, if you would get the federal government out of it, the local people would take care of it.


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## WildAbtHorses

The folks of America need a reliable and constant objective reporting as if the Wild Horses and Burros were a natural disaster, which they are. My impression is the majority of folks either don't know a problem exists or they cannot comprehend the magnitude of it.

The horses are our responsibilities. What would we do if they were dogs?


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## WildAbtHorses

"Most of the laws that were passed to protect animals were done" without taking into consideration basic reproductive biology. 

Yes, by clueless folks. Politics is about votes, not the well-being of the horses.


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## WildAbtHorses

I need to walk away. It breaks my heart that horses are suffering and I can't help them. I might be able to help one or two, but that still leaves thousands in need of attention. Am I fatalistic? Do I have an alternative?

Here is a list of veterinary technician schools, if anyone wants to see what they think on this subject:

Nevada:
Pima
Truckee
Southern Nevada

California:
SJVC Fresno
Platt
Carrington: San Jose, Sacramento, Stockten, and San Leandro
Charter College


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## bsms

WildAbtHorses said:


> ...What would we do if they were dogs?


Kill them. Roughly 3 million cats and dogs killed each year. About 2.5 million of which are from lack of adoptions.


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## SilverMaple

^ Sad but true-- the majority of which are semi-feral cats and pit mixes or lab mixes that most people do not want. Basically mustangs of the dog world. Same as the holding pens and horse adoptions-- the more desirable animals are adoptable, but the common ones are not.

Although American shelters cannot meet demand in much of the country so import dogs from the southern states, plus Mexico and other countries (often smuggled to avoid quarantine and vet checks) and the result are a lot of diseases and issues that haven't been seen in the US becoming much more prevalent, while other shelters and rescues are breeding to have puppies to adopt out... because having a 'rescue' is such a hot buzzword these days some unscrupulous people manufacture their own 'rescue dogs' as it's a profitable venture.


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## mred

bsms, I can't like your post, but it is true. A lot of people in the world still eat dogs. I don't like that either. 
But if people don't see it, it is not their problem. A bullet in the head is better than staving to death. Better to feed people or zoo animals. A lot of people in the world will eat a monkey, dog, cat or anything else.


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## WildAbtHorses




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## WildAbtHorses

Here is my final idea: The United States should handle the Wild Horses & Burros as a Natural Disaster.

We have to deal with this problem head-on and now. I know the BLM is doing a great job with adoptions and I have seen "3-Strike" Mustangs turn out to be the best and most loving horses when given an opportunity. 

The horses in holding pens need to be gentled "befriended" one-at-a-time. Each horse needs to reach a point where they can be groomed, have their teeth and hoofs cared for every six (6) weeks. We need 200 qualified individuals from around the globe (all are welcome to lend-a-hand) to spend 365 consecutive days working with the 50,000 in holding pens.

Think of it as a speed Mustang makeover while the public watches via Livestreams! Income generated from YouTube Channel will go to providing prizes to the trainers and caregivers and to providing happier and healthier living conditions for these horses.


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## SilverMaple

It's a natural disaster to the land, not the horses. America can't even help their own people during a natural disaster because our government is so corrupt-- the horses are not a natural disaster in any way other that ruining land and eating up money. Saving the land means getting rid of most of the horses, and then strictly managing those allowed to remain. 'Befriending them' still doesn't solve the problem that NOBODY WANTS THESE HORSES whether they are gentled or not. Spending money and time gentling them doesn't work-- dwindling adoptions even with the TIP, prison training, and other programs is proving this. Most people would rather have anything but a mustang, and whether the horse is trained or not makes no difference. Out of the dozens of people I know locally involved with horses, TWO would even consider a mustang, and they are very picky and can look at 100 horses and leave with an empty trailer. And even then, that is one horse for 15 years.... hardly a viable way of lowering the population. The rest would sooner shoot a mustang than feed it.


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## bsms

SilverMaple said:


> ...The rest would sooner shoot a mustang than feed it.


I wonder why that is. I understand some are built badly for riding. But my 1.5 mustangs (out of 3.0 horses) are good horses. 13.0 Cowboy isn't a beauty, but he'll carry me if I ask him to, has great feet and excellent balance. He doesn't get sick and can gain weight on air. My 5 foot No inch DIL works fine on him - or did before they moved to another state:








Bandit is only half-mustang, but his mustang half doesn't seem a detriment:








I sadly don't see an alternative to killing a lot of mustangs, although I don't know if our screwed up government will ever take action. Perhaps their biggest problem is that they are primarily "just" horses. Maybe there isn't much market for "just" horses when it seems every horse sport has dedicated breeding and horse owners increasingly want horses for sport? I'll admit neither Cowboy nor Bandit are "special". Good. Not "special". But why isn't there a market for just an all around horse? Too many purpose bred ones already on the market?


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## WildAbtHorses

animal cruelty felony - is it against the law to keep a wild animal in an overcrowded pen?

However, in most jurisdictions, animal cruelty is most commonly charged as a misdemeanor offense. In one recent California case, a felony conviction for animal cruelty could theoretically net a 25-year to life sentence due to their three-strikes law, which increases sentences based on prior felony convictions. Wiki

Who is accountable (a person) for putting wild horses in overcrowded pens? Can they be charged with a felony? They definitely have three-strikes against them.


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## WildAbtHorses

There are at least three natural disasters:
1. The environmental deterioration of ecosystems because of the large populations of wild horses & burros grazing,
2. Wild horses and burro's starving and thirsty because of overpopulation,
3. Wild horses and burros in overcrowded holding pens.

I love watching folks transform an untamed horse into a loving and loyal companion that is surefooted, confident, brave, calm, and sweet.

To me, that is true and pure love.


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## WildAbtHorses

American Apathy!

Indifference,
Lack of interest,
Lack of enthusiasm,
Lack of concern,
Lack of involvement,
Detachment.

Or is it lack awareness and knowledge?


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## WildAbtHorses

*Recap of Proposed Ideas*

Proposed Ideas to Increase Awareness & Engagement & to help the Wild Horses:

1. Wild Horses & burros vocational schools for long-term herd involvement,
2. Mustang Run towns with amusement parks (includes horse demonstrations like farriers),
3. Outpost-to-Outpost long-term herd management, research, & vacationers,
4. Speed "befriending" contests to "touch" all 50,000 wild horses (especially 3-strikers) & burros in holding pens in less than 365 days (touch = veterinarian care, dental & hoofs, and grooming).

Note: All ideas include impressive and daily social media presence.

An aside: A special thank you to the Horse Forum website and its members for providing a horsey friendly environment to discuss thoughts, opinions, facts, ideas, personal stories, and experiences. I am very grateful, and God Bless the American Mustang. Let's not give up on helping them.


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## mred

We can not even stop the back yard breeders the produce foals with no market and no ability to care for them. So more of them go to slaughter than all of the wild mustangs.
Yes, try to save all you can on both sides. I have 4 that would have went straight to Mexico, if I had not saved them. But I am getting on up there in years and cannot handle more. I can take you to sales where a horse may sell for as little as $35. And not all of the horses even get a bid. I know of at least 5 horses now that are free to the first person to take them.


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## Hondo

If the BLM were allowed to proceed with the aggressive sterilization program they wish to do, the population of wild horses would begin to decrease along with the costs of housing the excess. Maintaining the preferred population size once reached would, in my speculation, be several many fold less money than now being spent.


So why don't they do it?


EAJA. Equal Access to Justice Act


This bill was passed in the spirit of "we the people" in order to allow people to sue the Federal Government when their cause was just but lacking funds to pursue it.


Under EAJA, their costs would be refunded by the government entity being sued, providing they won the case. 



Many times these lawsuits were pursued by a pro bono attorney who felt he could win the case and collect his fees. 



EAJA was and is a good law but it has come under abuse. A cottage industry of attorneys that know the leanings of particular judges and which cases can be easily won have come into service of many radical over the top groups pursuing their own agenda over the interest of the US citizenry or the government entity they oppose, usually the USFS or BLM.


The USFS and BLM first tried opposing these lawsuits but soon found themselves as losers with mounting cost of their own defense plus the cost of the those suing them.


Ruptured budgets from these scenarios is why the USFS and BLM are often seen to "roll over" it the first onset or notice of a pending lawsuit.


Well, what to do about this rampant abuse of the EAJA?


There have been bills passed to curb the abuse but apparently not as concerns the management of wild horses.


The yellow brick path to proper sustainable management of wild horses is through a bill to further curb the abuses of the EAJA. I see no other way. That would allow sterilization programs to proceed.



Many wild horse advocates, The Cloud Foundation included, oppose sterilization as un-natural and succeeded in stopping the previous BLM efforts.


What these groups do not seem to understand is that there is simply no longer a way to manage the herd size naturally. Ten thousand years ago the sabre toothed lion died out in North America with the horse. Today there is no significant enemies to the horse, other than man. Absolutely ANY management that works MUST be un-natural. Period.


The BLM is already allowed to kill by one means or another the excess horses. That is written into the original protection laws that the excess could be either euthanized or slaughtered, I forget which. Sort of the same as excess dogs.


But the BLM has refused to end sound horses life. Maybe due to public outcry or to their own givings.


I oppose this also for herd size control as sterilization would work.


For the backyard breeders, not sure what to do. I know with dogs there is a huge drop in license costs for spayed and neutered dogs. Perhaps the same could be done with horses? Or a significant tax on new births? Dunno but I'd support reasonable legislation in this area.


The thing that really really bothers me about slaughter was described by Temple Grandin which I agree with.


There simply is no humane way to slaughter a horse. Bovines, yes. They are fairly placid if properly handled when approaching the point of no return.


Equines, no. Their automatic fear reactions are so high and so extreme that many will and do kill or maim themselves when being handled in the approach to the captive bolt. It would simply be prohibitive cost wise to handle a horse with the smell of death all around without his automatic defenses going into irreversible high gear.


To reiterate: The yellow brick path to the proper wild horse management is through the cubing of the misuse of the EAJA. I've watched many attempts over the past years fail. But it only takes one win to get a law enacted and then it's over.


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## WildAbtHorses

mred thanks but I've been to livestock auctions, and they can be fascinating and heartbreaking. From these auctions, horses are being sent to slaughterhouse? So, US horses are being slaughtered in the US? And their meat must be used for what?

Backyard horse breeders sound too much like Lancaster County puppy mills. Not good at all.

Hondo thanks interesting "Equal Access to Justice Act*(EAJA) - action against the United States for legal fees." And I looked up The Cloud Foundation (TCF), and it's Founder and Executive Director, Ginger Kathrens.

My impression of the BLM's Wild Horse and Burro Advisory Board is that they do care about the welfare of the horses and burros, but they are only an advisory board and not BLM personnel. 

It cannot be "them" against "us" -it's not about you or me or about the BLM or the Advisory Board or all of the sanctuaries and advocate groups --it is about the HORSES and BURROS -not us!

I think the only way for the wild horses to have a chance of living a happy and healthy life is if Americans WORK WITH the government (Congress and the BLM) for the greater good.

NOTE: We, the people, hire the President and members of Congress and the House, who in-turn employs BLM personnel. Our VOTE does make a difference, and we need Nevada residents to contact their representatives. Ask them to join this discussion.


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## Hondo

And what are the nuts and bolts of working with Congress and the BLM? Passing laws to curb the misuse of EAJA allowing the BLM to do what they already know need to be done. That remains the yellow brick path. Without that, nothing will change.


FYI: The slaughter of horses in the US is now illegal. So........they are shipped packed in trailers to Canada or Mexico where inspections and controls are less stringent than in the US.


We can fret all we want but unless the lawsuits are taken off the back of the BLM nothing will happen. Misuse of the EAJA has contributed to many of the wild fires we now see. Overcoming the lobby's in Washington that are protecting the EAJA cottage industries is the only avenue to proper management of the wild horses.


It is now being used successfully to break the back of the public will.


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## WildAbtHorses

Thanks "this" is a whole new world for me and OMG what a world.

It appears to me that the Government is not working in the best interest of the Animal Rights folks nor the best interest of the horses. But fighting the system is not working to resolve the problem (just to stop inhumane acts, which is really good). It seems to me that the Government has been trying to put an itsy bitsy highly infected bandaid on a gigantic wound.

We need to pool all this money being spent and redirect it to humanely resolving the problem.

I now have a new list to contact:
Georgetown Law
Review Journal
Paulick Report
Capital Press
Animal Welfare Institute


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## Hondo

Yes, reality can be quite a shock. I have lived way too many of my 77 years in a fantasy land of a creation of my own mind, a mental virtual reality.

This may sound wrong but the best thing that can be done for the thousands of horses being shipped out of the US for slaughter is to re-open slaughter houses in the US with stringent handling regulations and a design that allowed the handling of horses to be as humane as it is for cattle using Temple Grandin's designs. And laws against shipping horses to other countries for slaughter.

BTW, Ginger Kathrens of the Cloud Foundation is a wonderful wonderful woman with a heart of gold. No one loves horses and particularly mustangs as much as she does. She hunted down Cloud and filmed him for 20 years. I have the DVD and was a member of the Cloud Foundation for a couple of years. She is the strongest and most influential advocate for mustangs out there. There were many many announcements about how lawsuits had stopped the BLM from doing things they opposed, particularly sterilization.

As wonderful as I think she is, I also believe she is misguided by her love for horses. Just as the people who stopped the slaughter in the US and by doing so did a huge disservice to horses, I believe she is also. As I say that I know she is intelligent and thoughtful and has experience that I will never meet. Sometimes a parent can love their children so intensely that they cannot see when they do wrong. In a similar way, I suspect she just cannot bear to see the reality of the situation and it's future eventuality.

BTW, Ginger is on the BLM Advisory Board as is Ben Masters of the film unBranded which I also have. Ben and three friends adopted 16 mustangs and rode them from Mexico to Canada to raise mustang awareness and increase adoptions. Ben stated he must have been naive as there was no effect on adoptions.

Here is an article on H.R. 7239 intended to curb abuse of the EAJA. Apparently it did not do enough to stop lawsuits for mustang sterilization. It might be educational to investigate how much money and resources were required to write and pass the bill. And then perhaps contacting the American Cattlemen's Association in an attempt to "pick their brains".

It might be pointed out to them that if they could do something that would allow the sterilization of mustangs the number competing for forage their cows grazed on would soon start to drop. People are people and there's gotta be something in it for them.

The article and associated readings will give you an idea of what working with congress really means.

https://www.agweb.com/article/house-passes-bill-to-address-abuse-of-eaja-NAA-news-release


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## SilverMaple

The sterilization programs are viewed as 'unnatural' and 'will have a negative effect on the social aspect of the horses' but apparently mares breeding every year, dying due to starvation while trying to feed a foal, and dying during birth are ok with these folks. I saw an article yesterday that a new study is showing that sterilization for mares on the Chincoteague ponies has increased the life span of mares from an average of less than 7 years, to well over 20 years. So, on a well-managed herd like the Chincoteague horses, this is working nicely. However, is that applicable to the vast expanses of the western plains and the huge numbers of mustangs currently on federal land? Probably not. The Chincoteague horses are so used to people and in such a small area that injecting the mares isn't too hard on them. Chasing down wary and wild herds in Nevada to inject the mares becomes a very stressful and very expensive operation indeed. And say it's done successfully-- ok, now we have mares living three to four times as long, so that's increasing stress on the land, too. 

Nobody is going to cry 'cruel' about the holding pens as long as the horses are in decent condition with access to water and food. They don't count as a 'wild animal in captivity' because horses are not considered an indigenous species. A mustang is no more 'wild' than a feral cat under the law. When the humane laws in the US take months or years to turn on people who are legitimately leaving animals with no food, water, or shelter on properties littered with dead and dying horses, nobody is going to care that the BLM has horses in pens as long as they're being fed/watered. 

So we're back to the million dollar question--- how do you cut the numbers on the ranges down, reduce the numbers in pens, and get anything done without a 'hard cull' to get down to manageable numbers? You can't.


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## Hondo

Darting sterilization was a no go from the beginning for areas like Nevada. When I mention sterilization I'm talking surgical for both males and females. It was the surgical for females that Cloud and others opposed as unsafe. I cannot speak to that as I do not know but dying in 7 years for not being sterilized doesn't sound very safe either.


Yes, if they live a long 20-25 years when sterilized, that leaves them on the range much longer, but it eliminates the offspring being there. In time the numbers would have to drop by definition. At some point the BLM would have to use their studies to make an educated judgment on how many mares to leave intact to keep the numbers from dropping too low.


Surgical sterilization for mares is I'm sure an expensive proposition but apparently it is less than the long term care of them and their offspring.


Both Ginger and Ben care deeply about mustangs and are both on the advisory board. But on slaughter they voted opposite. Ben was just frustrated over the lawsuits against sterilization which he supports as stated in an email to me.


It's a dilemma.......


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## WildAbtHorses

SilverMaple asks, "how do you cut the numbers on the ranges down, reduce the numbers in pens, and get anything done without a 'hard cull' to get down to manageable numbers?" Someone must have a viable suggestion.

Methods of sterilization, darting to me, sounds like the most humane way. Vs. Spaying Wild Horse Mares "BLM twice has been stopped from committing abject abuse with the archaic procedure they want to use on these mares. Standing in chutes, no anesthesia, wire hoop to grab and rip out ovaries. Turn them loose. Veterinarian associations are completely against this. It is barbaric. -ziggypop on Paulick Report

Contacted 24 Oregon State University veterinary staff*and 22 Nevada representatives: https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/Legislator/A/Senate

At the October 30-31,2019 BLM Wild Horse Advisory meeting we need a unified voice to speak clearly and concisely about a viable plan to manage wild horses in the wild and in holding pens.


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## boots

@WildAbtHorses - I give you credit for trying to research the issue. I hope you get to come west and see, and even work with/for, the feral horses someday soon.

I never understood the objection to surgical sterilization or mares. It's permanent. Unlike darting. Requires a one- time interference by humans versus annually hoping to get the right mares at the right time. Driving around fragile ecosystems. When the weather even allows it 

And *ziggypop*? When did he become an expert? . He's even wrong about veterinary associations being against surgical sterilization. But he can sure choose words to invoke emotion in people who think they care about the feral horses. Shame on him. 

BTW - I know several people who spay their extra mares to prevent accidental breeding. I have spayed the mares I've owned to avoid problems in the remuda. 

With all the trauma related to heat cycles and pregnancy, I'm hardly subjecting horses to ziggypop's illusion of "abject cruelty."


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## bsms

It is a long shot, but maybe this will help:

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) took its first step in moving Washington-based staff out West...

"_The Department of Interior announced in July that it would leave just 61 BLM employees in the capital and move about 300 other Washington-based employees to offices closer to the public lands they manage....BLM head William Pendley encouraged staffers to apply for vacant positions that have been moved out West as part of the agency’s effort to relocate most of its D.C.-based staff._"


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## boots

bsms said:


> It is a long shot, but maybe this will help:
> 
> The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) took its first step in moving Washington-based staff out West...
> 
> "_The Department of Interior announced in July that it would leave just 61 BLM employees in the capital and move about 300 other Washington-based employees to offices closer to the public lands they manage....BLM head William Pendley encouraged staffers to apply for vacant positions that have been moved out West as part of the agency’s effort to relocate most of its D.C.-based staff._"


That seems very sensible. I hope it does help the situation for the horses and all wildlife.


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## WildAbtHorses

just wrote William Pendley...

Yes, move BLM positions closer to the horses, wildlife, livestock, and ecosystems they manage but fill those positions with individuals that know the land and understand the issues. Leave the Washington, D.C. personnel in D.C. as support personnel.

Nowhere in the article or in the comments were wild horses mentioned the chatter was all about staff salaries.

And, of course, I asked William Pendley to join the discussion on HorseForum.


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## Hondo

Bottom line. As long as there are more foals than adoptees, the population will continue to grow. Euthanize the babies or prevent their birth.


Darting won't do it. Surgical is the ONLY viable solution. If there is another, I'd like to hear it.


The article below rates the surgical procedure at 2% failure. That sounded and sounds drastic to me. But the article went on to say that was about the same as cats and dogs in the 50's when it began. Procedures have improved with experience and failures are few and far between.


It may be a hard choice, but which is best. 2% die as a result of the procedure or 98% going to holding pens or slaughter. That's more or less the choice we're looking at.


The pictures show a guy with his arm in a clear plastic glove up to his arm pits with his arm inserted into the mare. Well, shoot. I saw that many a time with cows 65 and more years ago. They insert the arm into the rectum and guide a small tube into the uterus by feeling through the intestine wall with the other hand.


That may sound horrible to the uninitiated, but it's no problem. The squeamish should watch a stallion sink his teeth into a mare's neck during breeding. Ouch! I'll bet that's as painful as the spaying. And death at 7 years? That's not good either. Is that what the mustang advocates really really want???


They really need to do some honest deep think.


https://www.animals24-7.org/2018/11/18/why-not-spay-wild-horses-technique-has-barely-been-tested/


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## WildAbtHorses

horse sterilization surgical procedure 

https://www.petmd.com/blogs/thedail.../why-you-dont-spay-when-animal-eats-hay-31930

To neuter a horse is to geld it and the result is a horse called a gelding. This is the most common surgical procedure done on the farm and most male horses are gelded before they reach the age of three. A relatively simple procedure, gelding can be performed with the horse either heavily sedated and still standing or under general anesthesia lying down. …

Spaying a mare is a more complicated medical procedure than gelding, involving entering the abdominal cavity. Although there is more than one way to spay a mare, each resulting in the removal of the ovaries, the procedure tends to be painful and there can be scary complications, such as bleeding from the ovarian artery, which can be difficult to control.


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## WildAbtHorses

There are 329,350,757 people in the United States. The BLM and the individual states with wild horses and burros should be able to hire a few hundred dedicated individuals to be responsible for long-term herd management.

There is no reason why we cannot build state-of-the-art facilities within each HMA and to staff each facility with a diverse and dedicate team of experts to make sure the herd is healthy and happy. e.g., providing birth control to mares and geld most of the stallions, and removing a percentage of the foals and horses under four-years, which have a higher probability of being adopted. (I contacted Bear Grylls for his thoughts on Nevada's Outposts.)

The States must speak-up NOW and let Pendley and the BLM know what they need and how to accomplish it, e.g., where the States want the new offices and what staff is required. And, the States should provide employee referrals for proposed positions.

Note: This is my opinion.


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## Hondo

I'd be interested to know what you envision as a state of the art facility.


Horses need: 1. to feel safe 2. to have adequate water and feed 3. other horses to meet social needs (important)


A facility can meet all of these needs.


However, a horse desperately needs a certain amount of exercise. A facility cannot provide 10+ miles of walking while grazing daily. This walking is very important.


They also, imo, have a strong seeking need. They _need_ to be able to look for and find food. This may sound controversial to some, but science supports it.



Sterilization and left on the open range is still best for the horses in the current scenario, IMO. The BLM who has spent more hands on time than any individual or organization in researching the management of wild horses agrees.


I say allow them to do their job.


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## WildAbtHorses

The State-of-the-Art facilities are for the humans that live and work within the HMA. The herd remains free and wild. The humans in their State-of-the-Art facilities are there to observe and document, provide birth control, healthcare when necessary, to remove the severely injured, and to remove adoptable young horses for sale, e.g., manage the herd (this is my Outpost-to-Outpost idea). Each HMA and its human team will have a YouTube Channel and provide daily videos.

LOL The BLM listens? Don't they do what they want? Unless a lawsuit stops them.

"Sterilization and left on the open range..." Yes, I agree.

"...strong seeking need...look for and find food..." Yes, I agree.


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## Hondo

Sounds wonderful!

BUT.....how are they to provide birth control, healthcare when necessary, to remove the severely injured, and to remove adoptable young horses?

The only way to do this with a truly wild herd out in the boonies is by helicopter roundup which is an involved and expensive process. If darting was used, the roundup would need to be done annually. This often results in injuries and even deaths to some horses. Annual roundups are out of the question. That leave surgical birth control as the only birth control option.

No, the BLM does not do what they want. Too many pressures from within and without for that to happen. They want to do surgical sterilizations but they are not doing it.


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## bsms

The BLM also has a budget Congress controls. Anything they do MUST fit within that budget. They get $70-80 million to deal with mustangs. 60% or more goes to the horses in holding. Since 2000, the budget went from $20 million to $80 million.

https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/about/data/budget

What the BLM asked for in 2018:

"_Wild Horse & Burro Management - Shift Management Strategies – The WH/B budget is principally consumed by the cost to care for excess animals in off-range facilities, and is on an unsustainable course, as the number of animals on the range and in the BLM holding facilities have skyrocketed. The program budget has quadrupled from $20.4 million in 2000 to $80.4 million in 2017, and yet the program is farther away than ever from achieving its basic statutory obligation under the Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act of 1971. 

The Act requires the protection, management and control of wild horses and burros (WH&Bs) that roam public lands administered by the BLM and the U.S. Forest Service. The Act calls for maintaining animal populations on the range at appropriate management levels; the removal of excess WH&Bs and that they be made available for adoption. Animals for which there is no adoption demand are to be humanely euthanized while others that meet certain criteria are to be sold without limitation. 

Enacted appropriations bills from 1988 to 2004 and from 2010 to present have prohibited destruction of healthy animals and unlimited sale. The current program is wholly unsustainable and a new approach is needed, particularly when considering the sharp and consistent growth in resource requirements. The BLM must be able to use all of the tools included in the Act to manage this program in a more cost-effective manner, including the ability to conduct sales without limitation. 

The budget proposes to eliminate appropriations language restricting the BLM from using all of the management options authorized in the Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act. An estimated $4.0 million of the $10.0 reduction will be achieved through savings resulting from unrestricted sales. The remainder of the funding decrease will be achieved by reducing gathers, reducing birth control treatments, and other activities. The long-term goal is to realign program costs and animal populations to more manageable levels, enabling the BLM to reorient the WH&B program back to these traditional management strategies._"

https://www.blm.gov/basic/programs-wild-horse-and-burro-news-fy18-budget-statement

However:

"_“President Trump has included similar requests in the last two fiscal budget cycles,” recalled Streater, but “Congress, even with Republicans controlling the House and Senate the first two years of the Trump administration, has ignored the requests. Indeed, the Interior/EPA fiscal 2019 funding package approved in February includes language forbidding ‘the destruction of healthy, unadopted, wild horses and burros in the care of the Bureau [of Land Management] or its contractors._”...

https://www.animals24-7.org/2019/04/27/four-schemes-to-save-70000-wild-horses-from-a-blm-apocalypse/

Note: The number of cattle and sheep on BLM land has been cut by 50% since 1971. Yet supposedly the BLM does anything the ranchers want...:evil:


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## SilverMaple

WildAbtHorses -- would you be willing to have EVERY HORSE currently in holding killed or slaughtered so that money could be spent sterilizing the horses still on the land, and rounding up new batches to go into the holding pens? Because that's what would need to happen. The majority of the BLM budget goes to feeding unadoptable horses until they die of old age, leaving a rather small amount for the care of the current herds still in the wild.


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## WildAbtHorses

I know I've arrived late to this party. I do comprehend the vicious cycle with the overcrowded holding pens and a budget that will never be enough to resolve the problem. So, we keep stockpiling wild horses both in the wild and in holding.

Our Unified Goal of happy and healthy wild horses and burros populations will hopefully occur with the relocation of the BLM offices and the reorganization of BLM personnel.

Top Objectives:
1. Reduce and control populations in the wild.
2. Find forever homes for 100,000 horses.

"And if I were the king of the world
Tell you what I'd do..." -Jeremiah was a bullfrog

1. Top Priority: Setup an outstanding social media presence for America's Mustangs. All proceeds go directly into a fund to support 100,000 wild horses in captivity. Note: HMA Outpost staff would be either Government employees or Government contractors.

2. Top Priority: Setup a wild horse vocational school system (to have well-trained personnel available to hire).

3. Control Population: Setup HMA Outposts and staff the Outposts with a team of experts to properly manage the herds. e.g., birth control for the herds, removal of unfit ones (send to a U.S. humane slaughterhouses) and capture youthful Mustangs for adoptions.

4. Forever Homes: I would find large ranches in the U.S. for the 100,000 (50,000 currently in holding pens and the 50,000 extra in the wild). I would hire 100 horse trainers to gentle the Mustangs so they can be cared for properly. These horses would be adoptable or will remain on the ranches under America's care until their nature demise.

American's could resolve this problem efficiently and effectively by having a well-thought-out PLAN. Write it down; it will happen. Have a plan with detailed action steps, no worries about money --money will be available to support the endeavor.


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## Hondo

SilverMaple said:


> WildAbtHorses -- would you be willing to have EVERY HORSE currently in holding killed or slaughtered so that money could be spent sterilizing the horses still on the land, and rounding up new batches to go into the holding pens? Because that's what would need to happen. The majority of the BLM budget goes to feeding unadoptable horses until they die of old age, leaving a rather small amount for the care of the current herds still in the wild.



There was a plan, and I believe Ben Masters was deeply involved in it, to sterilize ALL of the horses in the holding pens. There were areas of the BLM and USNF that would be made available just for the remaining lifespan of the horses. The population size would begin to decrease immediately after being placed.


This was around the time frame, as I recall, that Ben Masters was elected to the advisory board. When the small misguided special interest groups that are actually harming the horse's welfare shot the plan down with lawsuits placed by EAJA lawyer groups Ben fumed.


The motivation for him doing the unBranded video which was a quite monumental undertaking, was seeing 50,000 beautiful horses in holding pens for the rest of their lives. When adoptions did not increase as he had hoped, he and others came up with the plan to sterilize the entire holding pen population and turn theme loose.


After that crashed he voted for slaughter as less cruel than remaining in the holding pens that the small vocal groups apparently wanted.


I'm getting a bit ticked myself just thinking about it. It was a good plan.


Oh no! said the vocal groups. NOT NATURAL!


Horses double in population about every four years they say. So bring in enough sabre toothed tigers to eat half of them every four years. That'd be natural. First they go for the stomach because it's soft and easy to tear and eat. All while the horse is alive.


Wish the vocal groups could witness this first hand and close up. They might reduce the objection to female sterilization.


They just apparently do not and can not "get it". grrrrr


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> Note: The number of cattle and sheep on BLM land has been cut by 50% since 1971. Yet supposedly the BLM does anything the ranchers want...



To be fair, much of the reduction in grazing on public lands has come from pressures other than wild horses, particularly the increase in recreational activities on public lands.


Since 1971 and before, there has bee a more or less mass exodus from farm to city with a proportional increase in interest in getting out of the city on weekends and into the country which often turns out to be public lands.


Don't know or have any idea what the split is, but I do know that recreation is a significant factor in the reduction of grazing.


Competition for use of public land has just skyrocketed.


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## WildAbtHorses

RE: Ben Master's Unbranded

I enjoyed the movie "Unbranded" by Ben Masters and friends, and I too would love to horseback from Mexico to Canada one day. "Lonesome Dove" is one of my favorites; both the TV mini-series and the Pultizer Prize-winning book by Larry McMurtry. About a fictional account of running cattle from Texas to Montana in the 1860s (Tommy Lee Jones as Captain Woodrow F. Call and Robert Duvall as Captain Augustus "Gus" McCrae). A must-see! A must-read!

No disrespect to Ben Masters but published horse ownership statistics should have alerted him to that fact that adoptions would never significantly increase. No matter, "Unbranded" is an enjoyable and inspirational documentary.


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## WildAbtHorses

"Thinking outside the box?"

America has 100,000 Mustangs! They are an amazing natural resource (they may be short, but they are surefooted, confident, brave, calm, and sweet -when given a chance). Since slaughter is controversial, and not an option, let's embrace the fact that we Americans have 100,000 Mustangs!

And our top priority should be to provide more space for the horses in holding pens. There are several 70-80 acre parcels for sale: https://www.landsofamerica.com/Arizona/all-land/50-100-acres/

Of course, all stallions be gelded, and all mares be given birth control.

It can be done. We can do it. It's historical. Do you want to be known as the generation that slaughtered 100,000 wild horses or the generation that found a very humane and loving solution?


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## bsms

None of the ranchers I've met have lost grazing permits to wild horses. They have lost them to hunters. To tourists. And in some cases, to a bureaucratic mindset that grazing is bad. But if the BLM is subservient to ranchers, they sure have a funny way of showing it.

FWIW, I believe in "multiple use" and strongly support setting land aside for things like tourism. Or hunting. Or ATVs, or hikers, or wild horses. And letting them mingle when possible. They are PUBLIC lands. And I enjoy them mostly as a tourist myself:


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## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> "Thinking outside the box?"





WildAbtHorses said:


> "Thinking outside the box?"


Thinking outside the box is good. Nothing is happening inside the box, that's for certain.

There are several ranches that are rented for wild horse placement. The standards for handling and containment are very high and the have to be. It takes a lot more to contain a wild horse than it does a domesticated horse.

And 80 acres would not hold many wild horses. Not enough for someone to be looking after them.

But keep on thinking and stay outta the box.


If someone could just come up with a permanent injectable..problem solved.


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## boots

Put even four horses on eighty acres in Wyoming and you're feeding hay year round, there's no natural shelter, and likely no water.

The BLM would get sued any way because it's not "natural."


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## WildAbtHorses

EQUUSUPDATED:JUL 25, 2019ORIGINAL:MAY 16, 2019
Limited land? No Problem! With a little extra effort, you can enjoy the advantages of a large farm even if you keep your horses on a relatively small acreage.

“...1,000 pounds of horse per two to three acres,” says Dan 
https://equusmagazine.com/horse-care/limited-land-problem-30683

Building Yourself a Practical and Inexpensive Wild Horse Pen
A Practical and Inexpensive Wild Horse Pen

25,000 horses per 80 acres and only after five (5) days of “gentling” or “befriending” are they allowed out to roam. All 25,000 completed ~6 months. Higher and stronger fences are available for purchase if necessary. Can farm sections of the land to support the horses. There are water tankers.

Interesting and daunting: “...1,000-pound horse produces almost 40 pounds of manure per day,” says Betsy Greene, PhD

I’m not giving up on those horses. I do want what’s best for them and that includes all options that are available. But America is the land of plenty... home of the brave... home of the free?


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## WildAbtHorses

Re: bsms' Sunday, 25Aug20120 12:22 PM post
"BLM $80Million Mustang Budget - 60% going to horses in holding pens" Q: Is that 1M per horse in the holding pen? Make them YouTube stars and they can earn their keep.

IMO: If there will be "sales without limitations," it would be best for us to control without limitations to confirm humane treatment to the end (and as little travel in trucks as possible).

Trump/Streater "2019 forbidding destruction" IMO: This makes me think "sales without limitations" is a no-go.

On a brighter note: I know these Mustangs are more than capable of generating an income for their keep.
"Top 10 highest-paid YouTube stars of 2018," according to Forbes
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-10-highest-paid-youtube-stars-of-2018-forbes/
1. Ryan ToysReview – $22 million
2. Jake Paul – $21.5 million
3. Dude Perfect – $20 Million


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## bsms

Sales without limitation would mean a lot of trips to Mexico or Canada for slaughter. Under the circumstances, I'm OK with that. It happens to a lot of privately owned horses, too. I'm not thrilled by it, but if a privately owned horse can have it done...

I'm sick of mustang enthusiasts, most of whom don't live in the affected states and many of whom have not even been around horses, dictating herd management. There are plenty who oppose sterilization, for example. I remember seeing people call it "mutilation". "_The BLM wants to mutilate our ponies!_" Every management tool is attacked by enthusiasts who will never set foot in Nevada. Or Utah. Or Wyoming. I'm not criticizing you, WildAbtHorses. I don't doubt your sincerity or willingness to look for a real solution.

However, since horses proved in the 1700s that they could increase into the millions even without humans and with lots of natural predators, we NEED serious control methods available EVERY YEAR. If we cannot, then we should eliminate all wild mustangs. 

In the end, wild mustangs are just horses. And the USA has ample horses. That is the problem with mustang parks. Who is going to drive into remote parts of Nevada to see what they could see on many farms, or on uncounted thousands of acres of pasture land all across America?

Wild mustangs are just horses. Horses without owners who can be held responsible for any damage they do.


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## SilverMaple

70-acre tracts in most of the western states can support 2-5 horses on a good year, and even then, you're feeding hay all year. How is that any better? We're lucky in that we figure 1 horse per acre for grass on a good year here in the midwest, but that also doesn't include all of the hay fed over the winter, and it certainly doesn't include the cost of that land... it's hard enough finding an acreage with any pasture whatsoever, even enough for a couple of horses anymore. Most of it's been plowed under for corn/beans. 
Taking it out of production to run wild horses on it is going to net you anger, and likely someone shooting or poisoning the horses because of it. You don't mess with good farmland. Period. My parents lost many friends over the fact that they refused to plow up and and plant the 40-acre native prairie pasture. "If you aren't smart enough to use it to make money and feed people and livestock rather than horses, then to hell with you" was heard more than once. 

A rodeo company runs 120 - 150 head of bucking horses out on the river pastures near here-- land too steep and unsuitable for anything but grazing, and they still feed hay 4-5 months a year. And they spend a small fortune renting additional pasture space they don't own, because they feel it's better for their mares to raise foals out on the pastures-- those foals end up tougher, sounder, and have longer careers because of it. I can guarantee you that the BLM cannot afford the pasture rent for animals not making any money. Good rodeo broncs are worth a lot of money... mustangs are not. Mustangs also make crappy rodeo bucking stock-- that's been tried and failed. They're too small and weedy to buck consistently, or they buck a few times and then line out, which also doesn't get the cowboy a check. Good bucking stock is now bred to buck.

Places with good pasture most of the year also tend to have either good soil so the land is in farming, or is flood prone, crawling with bugs, and overpopulated (think Florida). Also not a viable solution. Throw in climate change where the majority of the US is either in drought or has too much rain and you can see the other problem. Horses don't make you money and are the first to go when your pastures dry up or flood out, or hay prices skyrocket. Worthless horses nobody wants are even easier to dump at the Saturday night sale than papered, broke horses-- and those are there in droves. And if you've ever seen horses with no fly protection driven insane by biting gnats, mosquitoes, and other vicious insects in a grassy, damp pasture on a hot, humid day with no breeze while dripping sweat, you'd realize the mustangs in holding pens on the high desert probably have it better.

A lucky few internet stars do not mean every horse is going to be a star, any more than everyone's cat is going to make millions on Instagram, or every 10 y.o. with a YouTube channel is going to make a living. A few rise. The rest fail.


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## mred

I think the number I saw was 100,000 domestic horses are slaughtered each year. 
So if we get 50,000 people to adopt one mustang that means that they will not adopt one domestic horse. So 50,000 more domestic horses go to slaughter! So we now send 150,000 domestic horses to slaughter.
And let us not forget the dogs and cats, but that is ok. 
Open up 2 to 3 slaughter houses in the US. My understanding is it is not illegal everywhere, but we no longer provide inspectors. Let them have inspectors for the meat.
Sales all the mustangs in pens to the slaughter houses. ALL!
Use the money, plus money saved from feeding them, to round up all of the mustangs. Divide into groups, foal, mare, studs, weak, injured. The ones that can be adopted, GREAT! 
The better ones, health wise can be sterilized. 
The very best can be left intact. Not more than 15,000.(as you most likely never captured all of them)
The balance sold the the slaughter houses.

My understanding is that when we have slaughter houses in the US, there were a lot of rules that are no longer followed. No double decker trailers, horses had to be unloaded and allowed feed and water every xx hours. Horses that could not stand could not be transported. When the slaughter houses closed down, the rules went with them. Horses going to Mexico are not being labeled for slaughter, even thou they are, to get by all rules that were set in place for the US.


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## boots

There is so much fantasy and misunderstanding about the lives the feral horses lead.

As @SilverMaple related, they are often miserable during fly season.

I was sent a video once of a band racing through sagebrush. The woman who videoed the horses asked if it wasn't beautiful to see them running free, "with total abandon." 

In actuality they were being terrorized by a recent hatch of heel flies and running recklessly. Which I knew because I was working cattle (on private ground) nearby and we were dealing with frantically stampeding cattle amoung those that hadn't availed themselves to the fly oilers. And even those that had were miserable.

I always say I like the feral horses way more than the people who condemn them to a life in areas with scant forage, bad water, being eaten alive when they can no longer stick with the herd, and no care.

So sad.


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## WildAbtHorses

I misunderstood the initial comment about Trump/Steater. I thought Trump was against slaughter. He is not.

The U.S. can ship horses to be slaughtered to Mexico or Canada but the US cannot do it ourselves because there are no USDA Inspectors for horse meat. So, why can't we hire some USDA Inspectors for horse meat?

"The Trump administration has approved the sale of wild-caught horses for slaughter and cut $10 million from the budget, with these cuts targeted at reducing animal husbandry costs. However, funds are not allocated in USDA's Food Safety Inspection Service (FSIS) budget to provide USDA inspection of horse slaughter."

"The 150,000 horses per year that are sent to slaughter from the U.S. [to Mexico or Canada] face welfare challenges including long transportation durations, transportation that is not under APHIS oversight, ... "

"In 2013, 4.7 million horses [Globally] were slaughtered to produce 1.6 billion pounds of meat..." - By Courtney L. Daigle June 2019.

https://www.beefmagazine.com/animal...ting-horse-slaughter-us-improve-horse-welfare

"The last three horse slaughterhouses — two in Texas and one in Illinois*— were closed in 2007." -USA Today

"Removing slaughter as a humane option will leave many horses with nowhere to go and no one to care for them," the association [American Veterinary Medical Association] says on its website. "There will likely be an acute rise in abuse, neglect, and abandonments with corresponding negative impacts on horse welfare."

"Horses are shipped for more than 24 hours at a time without food, water or rest in crowded trucks. They are often seriously injured or killed in transit."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-renewal-spending-law-trump-signed/459076002/


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## boots

USDA inspectors for horses meat were defunded as the result of pressure from special interest groups who are against horses being used as meat animals.


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## WildAbtHorses

"...condemn them to a life in areas with scant forage, bad water, being eaten alive when they can no longer stick with the herd, and no care." boots

"...abuse, neglect, and abandonments..."

Yes, a very sad and unfortunate mess Americans have created for the Mustang. Mustangs; an American wild-west icon that is rugged, surefooted, confident, brave, calm, and sweet.

Americans need to do what is right for them.


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## SilverMaple

Yep. Pressure from people against slaughtering horses caused the closure of the US slaughterhouses, precisely because the USDA removed funding for the inspectors. The other problem with slaughtering horses is that the head catch used for cattle often does not work on horses due to their longer necks, and as a horse moves his head, the captive bolt misses, and he's still alive when he's hoisted up and bled out. In order to have humane horse slaughter, you need specialized equipment and workers, which no slaughterhouse wants to pay for-- they want to be able to do horses on Monday morning and cattle Monday afternoon. 



150 years ago, every community, even the small ones, had a knacker, butcher, or abbatoir who slaughtered horses. They were usually led in, grain dumped in feeder, and the horse was shot in the head or pole-axed. Meat was sold cheaply at the butchers, sold as dog food, ground and given to prisons, schools, hospitals, etc. Hides made robes, mittens, and furniture. Hooves and bones were boiled for gelatin and glue. It wasn't usually viewed negatively-- there were a lot of horses, and working families could not afford to keep animals that were too old or lame to be useful. Being 'sent down the lane' was the chosen end for the vast majority of horses, and nobody saw much wrong with it. Yes, it was unpleasant to think of the steady parade of horses dying there, but what else could you do with them? The alternative was leaving them to rot in the streets or mound up in ditches and fields. It was a necessary service, and most butchers, while not soft-hearted, were quick and experienced and the animals in their charge met a swift end. That's the type of slaughter we need in this country-- not the mass commercial slaughterhouses with equipment not meant for horses. The problem is that too many people don't realize that death comes for us all, and that the end of a 1000-pound animal is not pretty, but we are so far removed from the land and from real life, most people assume all horses can be fed and housed until they die peacefully of old age. Well guess what. Most horses don't die peacefully if left to their own devices. They starve to death and suffer greatly their last months. Starving is excruciatingly painful. If they happen to have enough teeth to chew, perhaps their legs ache and hooves hurt and they stand on arthritic knees and foundered hooves for years with no relief because they can still get around and get just enough to eat and drink to stay alive. They die of anemia bitten by thousands of ticks. They get trapped in mud, break their legs, or go down and are eaten piecemeal by scavengers when not all the way expired even in the absence of large predators. They die in agony over a course of days trying to birth a hiplocked foal. The creek dries up and they dehydrate.... an old or injured horse left to his own devices dies alone and in pain and stressed and it takes a very long time to die. Most old horses do not just lie down and peacefully go to sleep. Anyone with a clue knows that, but the general public does not. A quick end is the best most horses can look forward to at the end of their lives, and that's just the way it is. A rifle at the butcher or a quick injection at the vet is a kindness. A 2-hour trip to a US slaughterhouse that is inspected with trained workers or local butcher to be turned into dog meat is preferably to a 2-day trip across the border to a Mexican slaughterhouse with no regulation. But our culture is so afraid of death, we want to close our eyes to the fact that it's a needed service that we don't want to think about or see, and in return the animals suffer.

"Doing what's right by the mustangs" may in fact be a quick, low-stress death for the good of the land AND the future of the horses still on the ranges.


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## tinyliny

@SilverMaple, your description of the death that comes via unheaded old age is heartbreaking. It is So much more civilized for us to provide a humane end to our beloved horses. Next closest is as humane a slaughter as possible. AND, this should be the case for Cows, too. We should make the end as free of fear and pain as possible. 



In the far future, we shall have a different relationship with animals. But, in truth, I'm not so sure it will be a better one.


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## WildAbtHorses

Is there a list of organizations that oppose slaughter? We need to open the discussion to them and maybe a field-trip or two? Fighting and lawsuits will take too much time, and I cannot bear having animals in pain. They either have to rescue them or help with a humane solution (and that does not include trips to Mexico or Canada that means the U.S. takes care of their own).

Being multi-denominational (raised kinda Episcopal but love all regions but don't know much about any of them and don't practice any of them but I love God and the Universe, anyway and whatever) I have always respected (not necessarily followed) this tradition:

Judaism 101: Kashrut: Jewish Dietary Laws

Ritual slaughter is known as shechitah, and the person who performs the slaughter is called a shochet, both from the Hebrew root Shin-Cheit-Teit. The method of slaughter is a quick, deep stroke across the throat with a perfectly sharp blade with no nicks or unevenness. This method is painless, causes unconsciousness within two seconds, and is widely recognized as the most humane method of slaughter possible.

Another advantage of shechitah is that it ensures rapid, complete draining of the blood, which is also necessary to render the meat kosher.

The shochet is not simply a butcher; he must be a pious man, well-trained in Jewish law, particularly as it relates to kashrut. In smaller, more remote communities, the rabbi and the shochet were often the same person.


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## WildAbtHorses

I think I found a list:

"80+ Organizations Oppose Trump Administration Plan to Slaughter America’s Mustangs" Feb. 13, 2018.

https://americanwildhorsecampaign.o...inistration-plan-slaughter-america’s-mustangs


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## WildAbtHorses

I think we all want the same thing for these horses: for them to lead happy and healthy lives. We need to find a way to agree on how to provide a humane end to those that are not living a happy or healthy life. The power of these 80+ organizations could go a long way to ending the suffering of some of these horses (wild, in holding, domestic) with no more long trips to Mexico or Canada.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hjp-dU7LeHQXCFrVYnx7Wze1ZRwFPUY9/view

Preamble: the 1971 act was shortsighted and irresponsible for not taking into consideration basic biology.

80+ Organizations Unified Statement (full of mandates).

As for the poll: The Public Policy Polling questions did not represent the current situation, and the questions appear biased. The results did state "support protecting and managing them humanely." We need to run an updated poll with well-unbiased questions on the current situation. Include a question about poll respondent's proximity to wild horse herds.

80+ Organizations Recommendations:
Unregulated horse meat? If horses are slaughter in the U.S for the food pipeline, there have to be regulations. This is part of the current problem; there are no inspectors.

Yes, birth control (#1, 6, 7).
Yes, HMA's dedicated manage teams (#4).
Yes, more research studies are required.
Yes, develop programs with local colleges and institutions (#8).
Yes, more public involvement (#9, 11).
Yes, it is known that feral populations (cats, dogs, horses) are usually self-regulating. You remove X numbers, and the feral animals reproduce to reestablish their numbers.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Proposed Questionnaire/Poll --DRAFT--*

This questionnaire/poll refers to wild horses in the western states, not to the east coast wild horses.

1. Are you an American? Yes/No.
2. How knowledgeable about America's Wild Horses do you consider yourself? Expert, Aware that they need help, Aware that they exist, No Clue.
3. Have you ever seen wild horses in America? Yes/No.
4. Have you ever watched Mustang Extreme Makeover or TIP Challenge or participants wild mustang-to-ring competitor training videos? Yes/No.
5. Have you ever lived in relative proximity to wild horses in the wild? Yes/No.
6. Have you ever visited wild horses in the wild? Yes/No.
7. Have you ever lived in relative proximity to wild horses in the holding pens? Yes/No.
8. Have you ever visited wild horses in holding pens? Yes/No.
9. How many acres do you think a horse requires? .25, .5, 1, 2, 3, 4.
10. How many wild horses do you think are in the wild? 27,000, 50,000, 80,000, 90,000?
11. How many wild horses do you think are in holding pens? 10,000, 30,000, 50,000?
12. How much do you think the U.S. Government should budget for managing wild horses in the wild? Less Than 50,000Million, More Than 50Million.
13. How much do you think the U.S. Government should budget for managing wild horses in holding pens? (Note: horses in captivity require training, professional dental and hoof care, grazing and feed, and 10 gallons of fresh-water per day per horse.) Less Than 50,000Million, More Than 50Million.
14. Should horses in poor health be euthanized? (Note: Euthanized animals cannot be used in the meat pipeline. e.g., sold to zoos.) Yes/No.
15. Should horses in poor health be sent to the slaughterhouse? Yes/No.
16. Should American horses be transported to Mexico or Canada for slaughter (Note: This process is less humane and does not include the USDA.)? Yes/No.
17. If an American horse has to be put-down, should Americans humanely slaughter the horse? Yes/No.
18. Should horse meat be included in the meat pipeline? (Note: To be included in the meat pipeline, the butching process must be USDA Inspected.) Yes/No.
19. Who should manage wild horses herds in the wild? Federal Government, State and Local Governments, Private for-profit company, A non-profit organization.
20. Should horses be sterilized to control populations? Yes/No.
21. Should a percentage of wild stallions be gelded (i.e., neutered) to control horse populations in the wild? Yes/No.
22. Should a percentage of wild mares be administered birth control to control horse populations in the wild? Yes/No.
23. Should a percentage of wild mares be spayed to control horse populations in the wild? Yes/No.
24. How should overpopulation of horse populations be handled? Populations thinned in the wild by experts? Rounded-up and held in pens? Excess in pens be humanely put-down?

What do you think? Any changes? Recommendations? Options? Good? Bad? Stupid?


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## WildAbtHorses

No time/date-stamp:

"THEY JUST KEEP COMING! Got ANOTHER CALL!!!!l for UP TO SIXTY (60) - YES, 60 or more, ORPHAN BABIES. The roundup in NV has already started, sorting has begun and we are on call for this afternoon!!.

We have been given the chance to purchase these orphans BEFORE the kill buyer gets their hands on them..."

https://www.chillypepper.org

OMG how can you not want to save them all?!?


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## SilverMaple

Be aware that those are probably not BLM mustangs, but are instead horses off the Reservations, where BLM laws do not apply. The Reservations are also facing overgrazing by feral horses, and are doing something about it. Roundups and horse buybacks (you bring in horses for a payment, horses are usually euthed) are common on the reservations in the desert southwest, especially when drought is causing the horses to die from lack of water and food. More than one rescue uses 'mustang' in their name because 'feral rez horse' won't get nearly as many donations.... 

Feral horses, especially stallions, are causing a lot of trouble on the Navajo reservation where a good friend lives. The feral horses are pushing down fences and attacking domestic horses for hay. She has an 8' custom-welded pipe fence reinforced with high-tensile electric, 5 strands, around her hay, as starving feral horses pushed down the 6' panels and stalls reinforced with electric fence she had been using, kicked the snot out of her horses, and ate an entire year's worth of very expensive alfalfa hay in one night. She has to feed her horses in enclosed stalls or the feral horses come running and pushing at her panels to get the hay put out for her animals. She's also been attacked by stallions while out riding her gelding, and was told to ride with a rifle should it happen again. 

She feels for the horses who are starving, and has rescued numerous young foals abandoned by starving mares, but the feral animals are also ruining the land and eating hay meant for personal horses purchased at great cost by people who are some of the poorest in the country. There are simply too many feral horses for the land to support, especially with the record drought the last few years, and when even emaciated mares are bred and produce foals, the population keeps growing.


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## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> What do you think? Any changes? Recommendations? Options? Good? Bad? Stupid?



All good except #9 which is difficult to answer without knowledge of the particular piece of land and it's location.


I personally have been searching for a new location to purchase and have been reluctant to consider anything less than 4 acres and am in contract for a place with 4 acres (fingers crossed). I do not criticize for people having one acre but I do believe the less space they have the more they need to be taken out and exercised.


I'm basing my four acres on hay being fed 365.


@SilverMaple is telling it how it is. Also, if they are truly BLM, there will be a brand on their neck indicating that. At least the neck brand is all I've ever seen.


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## mred

Agree SilverMaple.
And while a lot of these foals may end up in slaughter, most of the TRUE kill buyers want animals bigger that a skinny foal. A lot of sales play on people's hearts to save a foal, when the seller knows that a lot of the time he may get it back, older and fatter, after the people that saved it can no longer care for it.
I know of one sale where the same horse went thru the sale once a month for 6 to 8 times. And I not heartless, I have one I purchased the sale, 2nd time thru, that came back skinnier than it left. I paid $35. He is not about 12 and 16 hands. Good horse people can save a few, but people that don't know what they are getting into will spend a lot of money and can only help so much. A lot of these horses are pastured, never broke, no hoof or teeth care, no vet care. Yes, they saved one horse. But not much of a life some of the time.


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## SilverMaple

There are half a dozen KB's here in our area. Some are good in that they try to buy and ship horses that otherwise would have no use, and will flip horses that they purchase who can be ridden or look to have slipped through the cracks. They all will sometimes buy foals to 'tug at heartstrings and sell on FB' but rarely ship them. They don't bring enough money, and go down in the rig and then you don't get any money for them. Usually they sell the foals to 'save them from the kill pen buyers' and use that money to buy adults to ship.

One guy let me out there a couple of days ago to look and see if a local horse that has gone missing was in his pens-- she fit the description of two mares he'd picked up at a local auction. She was not, and most of the horses in the pens to ship were untouched yearlings and two-year-olds, older swaybacked used up saddle horses, draft horses with blown knees, and unbroken broodmares. His 'flip pen' had a few dozen weanlings, a couple of draft crosses, and about 50 Quarter Horses that he'd saddled and ridden and will put up for sale after he gets back with the load he left with last night. One of those draft crosses was tempting, I do admit.

He's not a bad guy. He feeds and waters his horses well, and they drive straight through to slaughter so they aren't on the trucks any more than necessary, and I must admit that the horses in his ship pen were ones that, honestly, nobody wants.


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## WildAbtHorses

*A Wild Horsey Tail: The Trials and Tribulations of Being Born Wild in America*

SliverMaple you should write a book (I'm happy to help). Of course, your book will have to come with a box or two of complimentary Kleenex. (Amazon Direct Publishing: https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/)

Hondo - Yes, I will remove #9 -good point -thanks! Good luck on the purchase.

mred - Yes, quality of life is so important to consider.

I'm working my way through the 80+ horse rescues and sanctuaries. I'm going to invite them to join the discussion.


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## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> Hondo - Yes, I will remove #9 -good point -thanks! Good luck on the purchase.


My intent was not to suggest removing #9. Just that it needed more qualifiers. For instance, if one horse was ridden with another being ponied for ten easy miles every day, they might both do well living together in a 1/4 acre pen. It's complicated.


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## WildAbtHorses

For anyone joining the discussion, its focus has shifted: Our goal is to have happy and healthy wild horses and burros.

Top Objectives:
1. Reduce and control populations in the wild.
2. Find forever homes for 100,000 horses.

The Hard Question: What do we do with all of the wild horses currently in overcrowed holding pens?

Adoptions are going well, but they will never reach the levels necessary to reduce the numbers significantly.

Shipping them to Mexico or Canada is a long, scary, and crowed journey (falls under President Trump’s unrestricted sale proposal). It would be more humane to quickly slaughter in the US (the US would have to reopen an abattoir and reinstate USDA Inspectors).

Are there any rescues or sanctuaries that still have room for more horses and more burros?


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## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> For anyone joining the discussion, its focus has shifted: Our goal is to have happy and healthy wild horses and burros.
> 
> Top Objectives:
> 1. Reduce and control populations in the wild.
> 2. Find forever homes for 100,000 horses.
> 
> The Hard Question: What do we do with all of the wild horses currently in overcrowed holding pens?
> 
> Adoptions are going well, but they will never reach the levels necessary to reduce the numbers significantly.
> 
> Shipping them to Mexico or Canada is a long, scary, and crowed journey (falls under President Trump’s unrestricted sale proposal). It would be more humane to quickly slaughter in the US (the US would have to reopen an abattoir and reinstate USDA Inspectors).
> 
> Are there any rescues or sanctuaries that still have room for more horses and more burros?



It is my understanding there is room available for sterilized horses in certain areas of public land. I'm skeptical about any significant room in existing rescues or sanctuaries.



There are no facilities capable of humanely slaughtering horses in the way that cattle are humanely slaughtered.


But they can be humanely euthanized. Some could possibly be butchered by zoos, but I'm thinking it likely that mass graves would be needed. At $1,000.00 per year upkeep, money for humane euthanization and burial should not be a problem.


That would be, to me, preferable to slaughter. But sterilization and release in suitable areas to live out their natural life is even more preferable, to me.


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## WildAbtHorses

MORE THAN 150 EQUINES SEIZED FROM CAMP COUNTY HORSE RESCUE IN COORDINATED RAID

https://www.campcountynow.com/news/more-150-equines-seized-camp-county-horse-rescue-coordinated-raid

The Camp County Sheriff’s Office partnered with the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) and Safe Haven Equine Rescue in Gilmer in seizing more than 150 horses and other equines June 27 in a large-scale case of alleged animal cruelty.

July 2019

Sorry just heard. And I am overwhelmed. Humane actions of Safe Haven and the inhumanity of Scarlet’s Legacy Equine Rescue (SLER) stockpiling horses they could not take care of.


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## Hondo

From the photos shown it is amazing that it required 8 months of investigation. I would have thought 8 minutes or even 8 seconds would have done it.


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## WildAbtHorses

Love this YouTube video by Mia Lykke Nielson. She takes a large and powerful mare that displays all the signs that she (the mare) is a leader horse: she shakes her head, lifts her tail, and keeps her head high. 

Mia gets the mare to move backward, and that is when Mia becomes the leader because a horse will only move back for a more dominating horse. I didn't know this... I just learned all this from Mia's video. So magnificent!


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## Hondo

Horses are all different. People are all different. Philosophies and beliefs about the best way to address a horse vary widely, even among professionals, and to some degree at least are all different from person to person.


What works for one individual and horse, may not work for another individual and horse. What does work for one individual and horse is dependent more than anything else on the individual attitude toward the horse and how they view the horse.


Horses are in general much more flexible and adaptable than the human in terms of getting along so that in time the horse will usually adapt, at least to a degree, to most handling philosophies and beliefs rather than the human adapting to the horse.


I would then suggest being reluctant to delve headfirst into anyone's handling/training philosophy and belief until clearly understanding what a horse means to oneself and why one wishes to be associated with horses. And this can certainly change as one comes to know and better understand horses and themselves.


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## WildAbtHorses

Can we make an orphaned baby Mustang a YouTube star? Do you know and love Nora the Polar Bear? Fiona the Hippo?

Nora the polar bear is just 3 years old, but she has already faced a host of challenges. Six days after she was born at Ohio's Columbus Zoo and Aquarium in November 2015, Nora was abandoned by her mother and had to be hand-raised by zookeepers.

Fiona the hippo was born prematurely on January 24 at the Cincinnati Zoo, and her adorable journey to health has gone viral.

Why can't we follow via vblogg of a Mustang foal or a herd of Mustang foals: "Rebel" "Liberty Bell" "Spirit Breath" "Freedom" and "Westy" ? Why not try and capture the babies life's journey in a very captivating and real-life as possible for YouTube?

It would increase knowledge and engagement in a way that may initiate public support and solutions for 100,000 horses.


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## bsms

WildAbtHorses said:


> ...Mia gets the mare to move backward, and that is when Mia becomes the leader because a horse will only move back for a more dominating horse...


I truly wish it was so simple! But horses will move back for a variety of reasons and dominance isn't even close to the same as being a leader. I wouldn't let Mia work my horses.


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## WildAbtHorses

^I may have miss quoted Mia, please watch the video. Uhmmm... some day I'm going to get me my own wild Mustang and give training a try!?!

Found this article:

"Nearly 20 years ago, there were up to 14 horse slaughter plants operating in the United States. The number was gradually reduced due to diminishing foreign demand for horse meat starting in the early 1990s.

Today, due to a mixture of federal USDA inspection appropriation cuts (now rescinded) and state legislation and court rulings, there are no horse slaughter plants currently operating in the US.

However, last year alone (2011), 133,241 American horses were shipped across country borders to be slaughtered."
https://www.habitatforhorses.org/horse-slaughter-the-truth-revealed-history-part-i/


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## WildAbtHorses

"...fatal shooting of wild horses..." -Molly Hudson, Arizona Republic June 2019.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...oting-wild-horses-heber-overgaard/1433393001/

"... 11 horses were found with gunshot wounds, six were severely decomposed, with their cause of death still undetermined, one died after getting stuck in a cattle-guard and one died after "blunt force trauma" which usually involves a vehicle collision, Johnson said."


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## gottatrot

Driving through Nevada several years ago we saw several bodies of mustangs that had obviously been hit by cars. I'm sure it would be difficult to stop if a horse galloped across in front of your vehicle in the night.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Horse Dilemma & Why Mustang Vocational Schools are a Great Idea*

Where to go to select my horse? California, Arizona, Oregon, Utah, Nevada, Wyoming, Florida, Colorado, Montana, South Dakota or Texas? Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, Tennessee, Florida, Maryland, Virginia or North Carolina? Gosh, lots of states have them.

Uhm I have no experience and no place to keep it while training or for the rest of its life, but it would be nice to have a horse.

Okay, let's say I find my horse and a place to train it and I successfully train it. How do I leave it? Where do I leave it? I can't walk away I'm now extremely attached to my horse (just like I am to my dog), but the horse doesn't fit into the car. Bummer. It lives for 30 years, and the burro I have fallen in love with and have adopted lives even longer.

If America establishes Mustang Vocational Schools, all my horse and burro dilemmas would be gone.

The Mustang Vocational School System would allow me to move from state to state with my horse (drive it or ride it), take classes on horsemanship, have supervised horse training sessions, and the system would provide me with flexibility to come and go with or without my horse knowing it has a caring place to live for its lifetime.

Uhm financing for my horse still needs to be worked out.


----------



## Avna

SilverMaple said:


> Yep. Pressure from people against slaughtering horses caused the closure of the US slaughterhouses, precisely because the USDA removed funding for the inspectors. The other problem with slaughtering horses is that the head catch used for cattle often does not work on horses due to their longer necks, and as a horse moves his head, the captive bolt misses, and he's still alive when he's hoisted up and bled out. In order to have humane horse slaughter, you need specialized equipment and workers, which no slaughterhouse wants to pay for-- they want to be able to do horses on Monday morning and cattle Monday afternoon.
> 
> 
> 
> 150 years ago, every community, even the small ones, had a knacker, butcher, or abbatoir who slaughtered horses. They were usually led in, grain dumped in feeder, and the horse was shot in the head or pole-axed. Meat was sold cheaply at the butchers, sold as dog food, ground and given to prisons, schools, hospitals, etc. Hides made robes, mittens, and furniture. Hooves and bones were boiled for gelatin and glue. It wasn't usually viewed negatively-- there were a lot of horses, and working families could not afford to keep animals that were too old or lame to be useful. Being 'sent down the lane' was the chosen end for the vast majority of horses, and nobody saw much wrong with it. Yes, it was unpleasant to think of the steady parade of horses dying there, but what else could you do with them? The alternative was leaving them to rot in the streets or mound up in ditches and fields. It was a necessary service, and most butchers, while not soft-hearted, were quick and experienced and the animals in their charge met a swift end. That's the type of slaughter we need in this country-- not the mass commercial slaughterhouses with equipment not meant for horses. The problem is that too many people don't realize that death comes for us all, and that the end of a 1000-pound animal is not pretty, but we are so far removed from the land and from real life, most people assume all horses can be fed and housed until they die peacefully of old age. Well guess what. Most horses don't die peacefully if left to their own devices. They starve to death and suffer greatly their last months. Starving is excruciatingly painful. If they happen to have enough teeth to chew, perhaps their legs ache and hooves hurt and they stand on arthritic knees and foundered hooves for years with no relief because they can still get around and get just enough to eat and drink to stay alive. They die of anemia bitten by thousands of ticks. They get trapped in mud, break their legs, or go down and are eaten piecemeal by scavengers when not all the way expired even in the absence of large predators. They die in agony over a course of days trying to birth a hiplocked foal. The creek dries up and they dehydrate.... an old or injured horse left to his own devices dies alone and in pain and stressed and it takes a very long time to die. Most old horses do not just lie down and peacefully go to sleep. Anyone with a clue knows that, but the general public does not. A quick end is the best most horses can look forward to at the end of their lives, and that's just the way it is. A rifle at the butcher or a quick injection at the vet is a kindness. A 2-hour trip to a US slaughterhouse that is inspected with trained workers or local butcher to be turned into dog meat is preferably to a 2-day trip across the border to a Mexican slaughterhouse with no regulation. But our culture is so afraid of death, we want to close our eyes to the fact that it's a needed service that we don't want to think about or see, and in return the animals suffer.
> 
> "Doing what's right by the mustangs" may in fact be a quick, low-stress death for the good of the land AND the future of the horses still on the ranges.


You said it for me.


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## SilverMaple

WildAbtHorses said:


> Uhm I have no experience and no place to keep it while training or for the rest of its life, but it would be nice to have a horse.
> 
> Okay, let's say I find my horse and a place to train it and I successfully train it. How do I leave it? Where do I leave it? I can't walk away I'm now extremely attached to my horse (just like I am to my dog), but the horse doesn't fit into the car. Bummer. It lives for 30 years, and the burro I have fallen in love with and have adopted lives even longer.
> 
> Uhm financing for my horse still needs to be worked out.


And that, therein, is the reason most people don't want a mustang when they could have a marketable horse instead. I'd be all over your vocational school, but I'd put my registered horses there instead


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## WildAbtHorses

^ all horses are welcomed! I've moved on from YouTube to Netflix. Yes, contacted Netflix about making a TV series.

NetFlix ideas:
1. East Coast city gal takes off with her rambunctious dog in her economy car in search of the wild Mustangs.
2. "What a Long Strange Trip It's Been!" The drive across the country and the searching and finding of so many horses.
3. The more she discovers about the current state-of-affair of the Wild Horses it seems too overwhelmed of a problem and its just horses and more horses in pens and in the wild.
4. It may seem like a daunting task, but she's a city girl, and she's use to solving hard problems.
5. She vows to make life better for all: the wild horses, the native species, the ranchers and their livestock, the human recreationors, and the fragile and overgrazed-overused ecosystems.
6. First stop is to the General Store for the proper attire: kick-vest, old fashion ridding helmet, gloves, cowgirl shirt and pants, and of course modern-day, comfortable cowgirl boots! Now she's ready to revamp America's antiquated Wild Horse management.
7. To be continued.


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## Hondo

I promise to watch each and every episode.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Horses & Drugs at the Hands of Men*

Toxicity of Horse Meat ASPCA, Animal Welfare Institute, The Humane Society of the US
https://www.humanesociety.org/sites/default/files/docs/toxicity-of-horse-meat.pdf

How Safe Is That Horse Meat? by Vickery Eckhoff Forbes Jun 18, 2012, 11:39pm
“That it has been produced for the last five years in Canada and Mexico instead of the U.S. has complicated an otherwise straightforward food-safety concern: the prevalence of a legal drug in the U.S. horse population that causes fatal cancers in humans. The U.S. official response has been classic: out of sight, out of mind.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/vickeryeckhoff/2012/06/18/how-safe-is-that-horse-meat/#580f23da1c77

Hi. Every time I think there isn't anything else to learn, I discover new aspects of this very complex and controversial issue.


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## boots

No specific drug named. And not everyone uses all drugs on their horses. 

To be used for human consumption there would have to be guidelines and testing as there is for beef, poultry, pork, venison, etc.

Still, I know many people who harvest their own horses for personal consumption.


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## WildAbtHorses

In 2012 a couple bought 70 acres in Eugene, Oregon and turned it into a horse rescue.

“I didn’t know there were so many homeless or free horses… we’re making a small dent … feels like we’re bailing out the boat with a thimble.”

-Owner at 8:07 in Forever Home - The Oregon Horse Rescue Story YouTube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=lyKzqytesdk


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## WildAbtHorses

^ I'm feeling a bit fatalistic again, but this time it's topped with big dollops of bleakness, depression, and discouragement.

In 2011 the Equine Network partnered with The American Horse Council’s Unwanted Horse Coalition and created A Home for Every Horse support site.

A Home for Every Horse is committed to ... find forever homes for America’s 170,000 to 200,000 horses in need of care and shelter.

https://ahomeforeveryhorse.com

My question to 'A Home For Every Horse' is does the 200,000 include the 100,000 Mustangs that need care and shelter?


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## Hondo

At some point, I believe, a person is faced with either accepting the world as it is, was, and will be; or become doomed to eternal frustration and depression.


All a person can do, I believe, is simply what they can do and do it.


Does the rabbit have a right not to be eaten by the wolf? Does the wolf have the right to eat the rabbit in order not to die of starvation. It's a dilemma and to pursue it, to me, is an invite to insanity.


ASPCA reports 670,000 dogs are euthanized each year.


https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+many+dogs+are+euthanized+each+year?&t=ffnt&atb=v1-1&ia=web


What can be done? More stringent laws about breeding? I certainly do not know.


Add the escalating abuse in the area of industrialization of farm animals. It's horrifying.


Add the past, present, and likely future tendency of humans to annihilate one another.


Keeping a positive perspective under these conditions can be daunting indeed. But one must.


Big sigh.............


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## mred

I passed two trailer loads of horses on the interstate. Texas tags, headed that direction. We have got to return to the slaughter houses and regulate for better methods. And only then look at population control. Both wild and domestic! As long as you have the backyard breeders producing horses that no one wants, there will be over population. You have got to educate people the truth about this. If you have no problem with putting Fido to sleep because it is for the best. Why can't people see that the horses in pens would be better off being put down.
Sad fact, you dispose of some to save the balance.


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## Hondo

I absolutely would like to see horse slaughter re-opened in the US but only with both the physical design and inspection format designed by Temple Grandin. That would be very close to euthanasia. I would not like to see horses slaughtered in a cattle facility. The regulations would also need to include transport.


Either that or individual euthanasia as is done with dogs with the remains disposed of through a rendering plant. I personally would prefer that with some going to zoos for meat. But with calm euthanasia.


I would also like to see some stiff regulation on breeding. Not sure what form, but something. All rescued cats and dogs are automatically sterilized. Dog licenses cost more where I live if not sterilized and a certificate of sterilization from the vet is required to reduce the cost.


Perhaps it's time for horse owners to be required to have licenses for their horses. The hitch may be that they are still classified in most places as livestock which would forgo licensing requirements. But if that could be worked out, licenses for horses that are kept as personal animals with added costs for those not sterilized may be the only way to stop or reduce the requirement or need for slaughter or euthanasia.


There is a cowboy on an adjacent ranch that worked on a large ranch in Texas for three years. They bred around 300 horses per year. Kept the ones that looked promising and sold off the rest. Ranches around here do the same on a smaller scale. But there are a lot of smaller scale ranches. I have personal and close up knowledge of this. Just breeding to see what might come out.


I am not normally one to push for more regulation but I would like to see more in this area.


But horses being livestock is a huge huge roadblock. In some cases it'd be almost like trying to limit the number of beef going to slaughter.


As in, "They're just horses".


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## WildAbtHorses

Wow! No licenses required for horses!?! Horse are classified as livestock!?! Which I'm sure made sense when every family owned a carriage horse or ran a livestock (cows, sheep, etc.) ranch.

Horse owners bred their horses and keep the ones that look promising!?! I'm assuming "sell off the rest" means a road trip for them to either Mexico or Canada slaughterhouse.

How does this differ from a Lancaster Puppy Mill?


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## WildAbtHorses

Yes, a specialized and humane slaughter and processing system that requires little handling and transportation have to be created just for horses that take into consideration their high levels of mistrust, fear, stress, and anxiety.

We live in an age of amazing innovation, technology, and forward-thinking folks. Someone must have a revolutionary idea?!?


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## mred

It does not cost that much to geld a horse. Mares will mostly be ok if not around a stud. Even cattle people don't leave intact bulls in with their cows. They only want to produce good stock.
I hate government regulations, but registering all studs and breeding may not be too bad. I am a member of AQHA. I have two mares registered with them at this time. I pay a yearly fee and receive a monthly magazine with a lot of great information. If I had a stud, I would have no problems with reporting each time the horse was used to breed. And if and when a foal was born. Every new foal from registered stock must be registered with a fee.

OR, Any stud going thru a sale must be of registered stock or gelded. If too young, you must sign papers to have it gelded. If a mare in foal is sold, you must agree to geld if it is a stud colt. Unless it is of registered stock.


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## Hondo

There is effort in some areas to declassify horses as livestock based on the current usage and classify them the same as cats and dogs. And there is a huge effort to stop this from happening by others. If the livestock classification could be removed from horses, that would open the door to laws regarding more humane handling of horses. That might be the most productive route to take. I'm sure there are web sites and groups trying to do just that. Without that, licensing laws and related regulations likely will never happen.


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## SilverMaple

Hondo said:


> There is effort in some areas to declassify horses as livestock based on the current usage and classify them the same as cats and dogs. And there is a huge effort to stop this from happening by others. If the livestock classification could be removed from horses, that would open the door to laws regarding more humane handling of horses. That might be the most productive route to take. I'm sure there are web sites and groups trying to do just that. Without that, licensing laws and related regulations likely will never happen.


Here's the problem once horses are removed from livestock classification.... you end up with idiots who have no idea how a horse thinks, what a horse needs, or how a horse should be kept making the laws, all supported by the Animal Rights/end animal ownership agenda. So you'd end up with legislation saying that in your county, your horse has to have a stall all to himself that's at least 20x20 and each horse must have 6 acres of turnout, but he can't go out with others because he could be kicked. That he has to be kept indoors during bad weather even if that means you have to come home from work to put him in his stall if it's raining or you'll get cited, can't be outdoors without a blanket, can't be ridden if the temperature is above 80 degrees or below 20 degrees, etc. They'd decide that most horse injuries come from people riding Quarter Horses, and work to ban the breed in their area. They could regulate the type of lead rope and length it had to be when tying your horse. They can force you to geld your colt at 4 months old at the height of fly season even if you'd like to give him a few more months to grow up first. They could decide that your stock trailer is inhumane. They can decide that the only acceptable fencing is 5' post and rail-- any other type is not allowed. All of this type of law has come into place regarding dogs-- even working dogs, because they are considered 'pets/companion animals' and not livestock. There is NO place for working animals under 'pet laws.' 

If you want to continue to be able to keep your horses outdoors with a run-in shed, ride them, and take them to shows, you'd better hope they never do get classified as pets. It sounds good on paper, especially by the do-gooders who consider horses companion animals, but it opens to door to over-regulation of horse ownership to the point where most people couldn't have horses anymore. Look at the laws regulating working dogs out of existence-- hunting dogs, sled dogs, etc. People have Service Dogs they can't legally use during bad weather because the dog is outdoors in snow even if that dog is more than comfortable outdoors in snow all day. More and more laws go on the books every day that look to be common sense and protect pets from abuse, but actually are so restrictive they end up punishing pet owners and those laws are usually backed by the AR organizations whose end goal is to end pet ownership. We already have laws in place to protect animals-- pets AND livestock. Our problem comes in getting them enforced. Do that, and there isn't any need to add more, and there certainly isn't any need to give even more power to the AR afficionados to further restrict the rights of horse owners, especially those who think that actually using your horse counts as abuse... and that's becoming more and more of a common belief.


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## boots

@SilverMaple - I can't like your post enough.

You give some it the very good reasons many horsemen object to changing to designation of horses from livestock to pets.

It is quite true that if horses get classified as pets many average owners and those who show would no longer be able to have horses. 

Even amongst horse lovers there is significant disagreement as to what qualifies as a standard of care. 

And as you said, let non-horse people weigh in and ultimately more horses will suffer.


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## Hondo

Ahhh....me. Points all well taken. Exactly the reasons I normally do not encourage more rural legislation by shirts in a high rise office.


It truly is a dilemma. Add to my comments above that the laws would need review by a selected board of experienced horse professionals?


Agree that a 20x20 stall with a few hours of daily turn out is very similar to prisoners in solitary confinement with one hour of exercise per day. I would definitely prefer euthanize to that.


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## SilverMaple

^ considering the do-gooders have legislated hobby breeders of dogs out of existence in many areas by deciding that raising the litter in your living room is unsafe, and instead requiring the puppies to be raised in a concrete sanitized kennel, you can see the concern.... the welfare of the animal has no bearing. It's all about making things so expensive or difficult to do, most people just give up. So what you have in the areas with laws like this are very few show/hobby breeders who actually go to the effort to raise quality, well-adjusted, healthy, guaranteed, and socialized pups who spend all day with the family regulated out of existence, and instead you have the high-volume commercial breeders who breed and sell huge numbers of puppies and can thus afford the required all hard surface runs, daily sanitization equipment, and commercial air exchange system but those pups see people once or twice a day for only a few minutes and are viewed as a commodity rather than a living being. Which puppy would you rather bring into your home? 
.


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## boots

Hondo said:


> Ahhh....me. Points all well taken. Exactly the reasons I normally do not encourage more rural legislation by shirts in a high rise office.
> 
> 
> It truly is a dilemma. Add to my comments above that the laws would need review by a selected board of experienced horse professionals?
> 
> 
> Agree that a 20x20 stall with a few hours of daily turn out is very similar to prisoners in solitary confinement with one hour of exercise per day. I would definitely prefer euthanize to that.


Exactly.

While I personally do not choose to stall my horses. Others would think that having horses on a few, or several, thousand acres with only draws and trees for shelter is neglect. 

Mine drink from running streams that come down from the mountains. I was criticized once for not keeping track of exactly how much our horses drink daily. 

And many horses who live in stalls with limited turnout do very well.


----------



## Hondo

boots said:


> And many horses who live in stalls with limited turnout do very well.



I really wonder about this. Horses as you obviously know are very stoic and can appear to be doing well when they are not. Stall vices do not appear in horses with ample turn out......to my understanding.


It's a broad spectrum. On one end are those who see nothing wrong with raising horses for consumption just as beef cows are. At the other end are those who believe that all gentle trail riding is abuse.


That's just keeping it in the US. Won't even go to what happens in some countries.


And of course everyone believes their personal belief is correct....otherwise they'd believe something else.


And then the war began...............


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## SilverMaple

I have a friend who thinks it's bad husbandry to keep horses turned out with only a shed for shelter. I think her horses kept in 12 x 12 stalls and turned out in the arena for an hour or two a day are unhappy. Now what if one was regulated as 'correct' and the other not? Would she be ok with turning her horses out in all weather even if meant they could be hit by lightning, had to deal with flies, and sweat in the sun if they don't use their shed even though they have acres of pasture to live as naturally as possible on? Or would I be ok with confining my horses in stalls (which I don't have) in order to keep them? 

That's a huge part of the problem. There is no 'middle ground' once you classify horses as pets. The livestock laws require adequate food, water, and shelter-- enforce those and you've solved 90% of the neglect/cruelty cases.


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## Hondo

The OP has opened quite a discussion/debate. I'm sure she's learning more than she expected and I'm learning new angles to consider myself. And all of the discussion has been open, considerate, meaningful, informative, and polite. Considering the topic, that's a huge plus!


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## SilverMaple

One of my 4-H kids is adopting a mustang in a few weeks. She and her dad are going to pick one up out of the Elm Creek, Nebraska pens. Her dad's a horse trainer, so this should be a nice project for her and her father to work on together. She is excited and was showing me pictures of the horses she'd found online, and she had an interesting question--- her question: Why do people think it's so horrible to have the mustangs on the holding lots? They have food and water. The pens all have windbreaks and some roofed shelters/sheds. How is that any worse off than the majority of horses cared for in areas of the country where grassy pasture isn't available? It's certainly got to be better than living in a stall 24/7 from the horse's point of view, isn't it? Her family travels south every winter to Arizona where most horses are kept in sandy runs with limited space and less room to move than the mustangs, and often alone rather than in a herd, or with 20 pens crammed onto 3 acres. If horses are supposed to be herd animals who need only food, water, some space to move around and possibly shelter from the wind in northern climates, why do people feel the mustangs would be better off euthanized than living in the holding corrals? By applying those same standards, a whole lot of privately-owned horses would be considered to be living 'a fate worse than death' and would also be better off shipped to slaughter. 

Taking the cost to care/feed the BLM horses removed from the ranges out of the equation, she has a point. You can't claim the mustangs in the holding corrals are better off as dog food if horses living in the same conditions owned privately are viewed as having adequate and species-appropriate care.


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## Hondo

Very good points. I live in Arizona and there are horses in too small dry lot areas.....but I doubt Arizona can be singled out for that.


I personally have not been to a mustang holding area so I can't really speak to that. Some that have, such as Ben Masters, have come away depressed at what they witnessed. But that's still not to say conditions are not as bad or worse in private ownership. In fact, I do know close up and personal that they in fact often are.


There are some, don't know how many, mustangs that are on land rented by the Government. Could be cheaper than hay at times.


Do you know what part of Arizona they travel too? Twenty pens on 3 acres is a lot but I have seen pens that small, just not that many.


My horse will soon be living on a small 4 acres where he had 600 acres for many years. But the Kaibab National Forest will be only 800 feet away. Me? I will be confined to a 650 SF 2 and 1. But only for eating, sleeping, and computer time. Rest will be with Hondo.


Now for some much needed GOOD NEWS.......


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/03/...-have-plummeted.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab


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## boots

My question is: Why are we warehousing 43,000+ horses? 

They aren't allowed to breed. Nor are they needed in order to continue the lines of feral horses. The BLM horses reproduce at a good clip. Check with "wild horse sanctuaries" that try to make a go of things through tourism. Doesn't happen. They are largely dependent on donations. 

Why are we spending money to keep these in pens instead of improving the range on which they and indigenous wild species (from reptiles and birds to other grazing animals, and people) depend?


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## WildAbtHorses

^congrats! Sounds like you two will be enjoying the outdoors together a lot. Trail exploring? Star watching? Creek bathing? Picnicking? 604 acres should keep you two entertained for awhile.

Here is a database on dogs and cats by Maddie’s Fund:
https://shelteranimalscount.org/data/Explore-the-Data/explore-the-data-summary

It would be great to have one on horses.

These posts are so informative. Thank you. Hopefully the horses will be the true beneficiary of these discussions... hopefully some day soon.


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## Hondo

boots said:


> My question is: Why are we warehousing 43,000+ horses?
> 
> They aren't allowed to breed. Nor are they needed in order to continue the lines of feral horses. The BLM horses reproduce at a good clip. Check with "wild horse sanctuaries" that try to make a go of things through tourism. Doesn't happen. They are largely dependent on donations.
> 
> Why are we spending money to keep these in pens instead of improving the range on which they and indigenous wild species (from reptiles and birds to other grazing animals, and people) depend?



My question is: What can be done to improve an over grazed range other than reducing impact by removing animals?


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## boots

Hondo said:


> My question is: What can be done to improve an over grazed range other than reducing impact by removing animals?


The rangelands of the western states only produce so much forage due to soil types, what is native forage, and precipitation.

Hunting the game animals is promoted and regulated to keep their numbers both sustainable and to avoid overgrazing by them. 

Grazing lease numbers have been reduced by half over the last decade. They are further reduced during dry seasons/droughts, though the rancher still pays the full season price they agreed to. 

Lots has been done to improve, and even create, riparian areas that benefit everything from reptiles to birds, rodents to horses and elk. The available forage is assessed and documented, often with the assistance of those who holds grazing leases, and the data used for planning for the next year. The next decade. For hunting, grazing, and recreation.

Only the horses exceed the numbers that range scientists believe optimal for herd and range health.

It's good to consider that more people use public lands than in the past. Primarily for recreation. And they want more, and easier, access. 

It has been suggested that different grasses be introduced. But you have prairie purists who object. And I sort of agree with them. Look at kudzu and the Russian Olive tree. Introducing both of them was considered a good idea at one time!


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## bsms

*Rant ahead!*

I abuse my horses:








No pastures. No trees. No running for miles. 3 horses and open shelters in a dry lot corral. And let's face it. Watermelon is NOT a natural horse food:








Now...do THEY feel abused? Don't know. They SEEM content. They don't colic. Don't act weird. Trooper went 8 months living there. Then my wife rode him. He obviously wasn't riding fit for a heavy rider, running distances or even riding for long hours...but for a 45-75 minute ride by my wife? He acted the same as he does when ridden daily for weeks.








Still, I've had people on HF tell me I am cruel to own horses this way. Guess I ought to kill them. Bandit COULD be sold but the market for 20+ year old horses isn't very great. Sorry Cowboy & Trooper!

There is a Border Collie "rescue" that refused to allow us to take a dog. We didn't have enough acres to "properly exercise" him - this from a woman who kept him in a crate in her house waiting to find a "good home". And we don't do "dog sports" so the Border Collie wouldn't get exercise with an older couple like us. So...no, we were not "fit" to own a Border Collie!

A guy who has won two national championships in the Opens disagreed and recommended a breeder who sold us Jack. Jack the Slipper since he likes to lie on our feet. Jack is now 11 and is a very abused dog:








As was one of our previous Border Collies:








That picture proves we don't know how to care for Border Collies since the "rescuer" - and the rescue is still in operation 12 years later - told us Border Collies could NOT be near small kids. Border Collies and small kids do NOT mix. *Ever!* Except ours don't know the rules and Jack has been infinitely patient with every small kid he has ever met.

We have horses, chickens and dogs. Too many animal activists - the ones who REALLY care about animals - would force us to shoot them all. When it became obvious the rescue wouldn't let us take the Border Collie, I told the woman, "_You say he is too high energy, yet you keep him in a crate 23.5 hours every day - and YOU think you know something about Border Collies?_" The rest of my comments were obscene. For the record, Jack is curled up under a desk two feet from me. When I leave the room, he'll leave with me. He's spent 11 years supervising our household. The Sky Dogs require him to keep order in our part of the Universe. And he does his duty. When age catches up with him, it will rip the heart out of me. But unlike a Border Collie rescue, I don't know how to raise and keep a Border Collie!

And I certainly should not be allowed to own or ride horses. Heck...I even ride Bandit in a curb bit!  You cannot get crueler than that! Just don't tell Bandit. He doesn't know how hard his life is.


----------



## bsms

BTW - I used to take lessons at a place where the pens were 10x20. I thought they were too small...but the HORSES didn't seem to mind. They had other horses all around them and watched what was going on. 

Unless accident prone Bandit manages to kill himself, he should outlive our other horses by a decade. There is something to be said for selling him while he is young enough to sell. OTOH, there is something to be said for keeping him and, when he is an only horse, putting him in a stable with lots to watch, daily turnout and lots of visits and some riding by me. The problem with activists is they want to think in terms of "ideal", but ideal rarely exists in the real world. I'd argue cities are abusive to the soul of a man..although maybe that is why so many activists live in cities. Hmmmm....

I try to do right by my horses. But it is often hard to know what is right. And if I sell Bandit, what happens to him next is entirely out of my control. He doesn't have a perfect life but he could have it much worse.


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## COWCHICK77

Congress passed the bill last December defining horses as livestock, as they should be in my opinion.

https://protecttheharvest.com/news/horses-as-livestock/


My horses are dry lotted at my house because it takes a lot of acreage to feed one horse year-round in Nevada. They have a few acres behind the arena they live in, some grass comes up in the spring and a little grows on the edges of the drainage of the stock tanks. They have a round bale to munch on all day. I also have a large lawn they get turned out on to snack on green grass during the good weather season, which is short here but it's better than nothing.
I saw the attitude of some posting on other forums if you don't have pasture and acreage you should rethink horse ownership. Well, that's great if you live somewhere like east Texas or Missouri where 10 acres of pasture can feed a couple of head of horses for the majority of the year but it doesn't mean those of us in the dry Western States shouldn't have the privilege of owning a horse.

I don't have an issue with horses in stalls IF they are able to be exercised regularly. Even in training barns where horses are stalled but rode 5-6 days a week, you don't see stall vices.
When I have seen stall vices is when horses are stalled but not given adequate exercise either through turnout or by being ridden. 
It's not being stalled in itself.


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## gottatrot

Regarding horses kept in holding pens. It's not the fact that the horses are kept in pens rather than on open acres of pasture that I don't agree with. 
Let's say you could take the horses and divide them all so they were in pens like @bsms has, and put four or five to a pen. If you had the time and staff to care for all those horses's needs, it would be fine. 

But the issue is that the horses are being treated like feed lot cattle, but they're not being fed for a short lifespan before slaughter for food, so that kind of treatment doesn't work.
An animal with a long life such as a horse will not be healthy if the individual needs are not considered. 

The video that was on here showed horses in Oregon that were available to adopt. At least several of the horses were so obese they were in danger of developing laminitis if they hadn't already. Mustangs are prone to insulin resistance, and those I've known that were adopted and allowed to eat enough to become obese have developed laminitis. So you're degrading the health of these horses and shortening their healthy lives with this type of treatment where all the horses are fed enough so the hardest keeper does not get thin. 
The hoof care is also given so infrequently that the hooves become very long. 

In a private person's dry lot, horses are separated if they don't get along, their feed is considered, hoof care is individualized and regular, and other individual needs are considered. In large holding pens, horses are pulled if they injure each other badly. Some I've seen are too crowded for the horses to exercise, and it's not like they're being taken out for individual work. This is a stressful situation for the horses. 

Livestock that are used for profit are treated better. They have regimens that keep them healthy and individuals are watched and pulled out if necessary and put down. There are protocols for keeping parasites down and doing routine cares, and most of these animals are kept alive for shorter time spans.


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## SilverMaple

There are a heck of a lot of people out there who don't separate out their obese or hard-keeper horses, either. Just sayin'. The few times I've been to the Elm Creek pens, at least, the horses were at reasonable numbers in the pens, injured or hard-keeper horses were separated out, and they all looked pretty good.


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## Hondo

I just returned from a BLM adoption website reading the rules and regulations pertaining to mustang adoption.


Heck, there are a few ways one can incur stiff fines and even jail time if the fine print is not read closely.


A lot more is heaped upon one's shoulders than just buying from an individual.


I'm sure there's good reasons for each and every reg, but I'd bet there would be a lot more adoptions without them.


Interesting that a minimum of a 20x20 corral is demanded with no mention of exercise or turn out that I could find.


I need to go visit one.


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## Knave

I haven’t been keeping up with this thread. My stress level doesn’t appreciate it, although I must admit everyone has been very pleasant. 

I just had to chime in for @Hondo. When I got approved to adopt a mustang, before I decided to go to the prison because of Bones’s injury, I’m sure you remember all that, I was denied the first paperwork I put in.

The reason for my denial: my corral was too large. I had to change which corral I would put him in before I adopted. Now, the assumption is that one could not catch their new purchase in too large a corral. That makes me roll my eyes a bit. I am sure some people could not manage to catch a feral horse in a pen larger than 100 x 100, but those same people might just have many problems in a small corral too.

I laughed in my annoyance. Seriously, he would have too much room.


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## Hondo

That's funny. I'm actually toying with the idea but will have to wait to see if I have any pennys left over after my house payment soon to begin. Wow! It's been 20 years.


I just got finished reading about the adoption incentive program where they pay a person $1,000 over a period of time for adopting a mustang. Makes good sense since it costs them around $1,000 per year just to feed and keep. One thousand dollar shot and the horse is out the door and on some one else's annual care bill.


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## Knave

It is a good idea. I bought Cash just a bit too soon. Actually, it does not apply to horses with any training. That makes sense too.

If I needed another horse I think I’d get another one. I wouldn’t get one started though, and I’d try to avoid the pens. Here, when they gather, they hold the young horses there to process and you can adopt them straight from that.


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## SilverMaple

A friend bought a paint gelding about 7 months ago. The horse came from a show barn where he'd been stalled most of the time, but ridden or turned out in a paddock by himself every day. My friend has a nice place-- lovely pastures, nice, roomy run-ins in every pasture, the rest of his horses are laid-back and easy going. His horses are ridden regularly down the road, on trail rides, and some fun shows. They get good feed, fly sheets, fly spray, and have a big fan to stand ahead of when it's hot and to keep the bugs off. They really do live the dream life horses are supposed to like. 

The new gelding is MISERABLE. He hates being outside all the time, he hates being around the other horses, and he despises anything but arena work. Even in his own paddock he stands gloomily inside or hangs over the gate neighing to come in the barn. Out with a herd, he does the same. The only time he's been happy has been when he's in the ring at a horse show. I rode him at their place a few times and he was tense, stressed, stiff, and cranky. Rode him at a show and he was a very happy, relaxed, mellow horse. They've worked all summer to ease this horse's transition into a new way of life, and it's just not working. He's lost weight, he's stressed, he's angry and irritated, he's not a happy horse. Just to rule out illness, they had him vet checked, then hauled him to someone else's barn/arena for a few days and he's back to his relaxed, friendly, happy self. The gelding is up for sale currently with the stipulation that he go to a home with the stall/arena life. There's no sense keeping him when he's so obviously unhappy living the life he's supposed to like.

This gelding spent the first three years of his life on a ranch in South Dakota on 400-acre pastures in a herd. It's not like he doesn't know how to be a horse or live outside, he just likes his cushy existence with a stall to himself, food delivered regularly, and being ridden in an arena. To each his own. Someone who wants a nice all-around show horse or lesson horse that will live in a stall with a little turnout and regular riding will be the perfect owner for this horse.


Some horses, like some people, prefer different things. If you stall your horses and they are happy, healthy and not exhibiting signs of stress, no problem. There are bigger issues out there. Same if you turn out your horses with a shed for shelter and let them get the winter woolies. I've had a gelding who loved his stall and was miserable in turnout, too. It happens.


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## Hondo

Hmmm, sounds like someone from downtown NYC asking me why anyone would want to live out in the sticks as I do.


In fact, my grand daughter from the SFBay area asked me just that.


With a big smile I replied, "So city folks won't be coming out asking me stupid questions. Been working pretty good until now."


She took it with a smile.


She did like being with the horses though, 20 of them.


Maybe she'll figure out the real answer someday.


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## WildAbtHorses

I don't have enough personal experience to know what makes a horse happy, but I would like to say that the love, attention, and care your horses receive I can't imagine them not being contented and happy horses. Unfortunately, there are probably horse owners, similar to dog and cat owners, that mean-well but don't have the time, money, or personal health to keep their animals but still keep them.


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## WildAbtHorses

As for "HORSES AS LIVESTOCK" https://protecttheharvest.com/news/horses-as-livestock/

I am still processing:

1. Horses as livestock vs. pet arguments;
2. That our society requires a law that protects women and pets equally from domestic violence;
3. That horses are animal agriculture and are not subject to the "burdensome" regulations under pet classification,
4. "This definition helps to prevent animal rights organizations from confusing the public when pushing their agenda. It is a victory for horses and animal agriculture as a whole."

A Google search on animal agriculture:

"Animal agriculture will continue to be an important part of food-producing systems. Investment in agricultural production research and development and implementation of policies that encourage production, while protecting the environment, will be essential to achieving the goal of an adequate global food supply."

"Animal agriculture is the practice of breeding animals for the production of animal products and for recreational purposes. In everyday life, animal agriculture links to our demand for meat."


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## WildAbtHorses

America needs a National horse database that tracks every horse. To act responsibly long-term and in the best interest of all parties; reports and statistics are required.

"Statistics may be a ho-hum topic to some, but we believe tracking numbers is key to the success of any animal welfare organization. Statistics are navigation devices - they tell you where you are, where you've been and what you need to do to get to where you want to go." https://www.maddiesfund.org/shelter-and-rescue-data.htm


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## Hondo

While the idea of a national horse data base might seem appealing, one always needs to consider possible unintended consequences.


For instance, some regulation for releasing or selling mustangs to the public is of course needed. But the difficulty level presented in adopting a mustang may very well cause some very qualified horse owner to opt out of adopting one where otherwise they would and provide a wonderful life for the horse.


A data base would certainly require some laws that owners would need to conform to. And penalties for non-conforming. That could also sway some away from horse ownership leaving more unwanted horses no place to go other than slaughter.


Not trying to be negative, just doing a devil's advocate.


I still like the idea of licensing or registering all horses.


As long as equines are considered livestock, I'd think licensing would be out of the question.


How-some-ever: There are already laws governing the transport of equines across state lines and over 75 miles in some states for the control of the spreading of disease, particularly coggins test.


In Arizona a certificate of ownership is available on a voluntary bases to assist in crossing state lines and perhaps even for entering events of various kinds.


It would not be a great leap to require Certificates of Ownership for all horses. This would not contradict horses being livestock. In these modern time of electrons running around keeping track of things, it shouldn't take much to throw the certificates into a data base.


I have been told, but don't know the details, that at one time in Arizona any horse being hauled had to be accompanied by a certificate of some sort but the law was relaxed and done away with.


So reviving it wouldn't be anything new.


When that was achieved in all states, then an effort would be needed to get states to share their data base into a national data base.


This could perhaps be done with effort extended over a period of years, but to announce or establish a national data base from the get go would, IMO, be a no-go.


I had a thought about our "wild" mustangs out on the range. They live but do have a hard time in some respects. And then the thought came to me that was always sort of there, these are actually domesticated horses living out on the range.


I remember witnessing one "wild" mustang in a herd in Nevada that was wearing a halter.


The equines that died off 10k+ years ago with the arrival of the first humans were very much more adapted to survival in the outback than the domesticated horses that have been altered through selective breeding for the last few thousand years.


Then the thought popped up, "are the feral horse herds similar to maintaining feral dog packs?". I'm sure some would say yes.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ All good points and we need to look at this issue from as many angles as we know and can image. Humans are concerned about horse over-population and destruction, horses are concerned about human over-population and destruction.

I just finished contacting the 80+ on the American Wild Horse Campaign Unified Statement list.

Found these numbers:
https://awionline.org/content/horse-slaughter-statistics
https://www.horseforum.com/members/...s-18181/usda-horseslaughternumbers-130019.jpg

USDA Market News:
https://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/al_ls635.txt
https://www.nass.usda.gov/Surveys/Guide_to_NASS_Surveys/Livestock_Slaughter/index.php

To me, the numbers being slaughter remain constant -the only difference is -it all is being completed in Mexico and Canada. And as everyone has already stated: the travel is long and hard in overcrowded trucks and that there are no USDA inspections being completed.

Restating what we all seem to agree on: It would be more humane and would include controls and oversight if American horses were processed in America.


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## Hondo

I was surprised at reading the number of horses going to Mexico and Canada for slaughter. I was under the impression the numbers were much larger. Encouraging to see a drop from 166k to 23k.


This seems to parallel what is happening with dog euthanization. Some positive under currents must be happening somewhere.


Who knows? Perhaps postings on the net such as on this thread are having an effect.


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## mred

May not be a drop. 2016 numbers were only thru April.


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## SilverMaple

A lot of horses are now being shipped to Asia for slaughter. Asian meat buyers are outbidding the KBs slaughtering in Canada/Mexico. They're also outbidding good homes due to the huge demand for horse meat in Asian countries. Japanese buyers bought nearly every draft horse at the last sale I went to, including some broke teams, by outbidding everyone else. I think only 6 or 7 of the 30+ horses there went somewhere other than Japan, one of whom was bought back by his consignor at a huge price to outbid the Japanese. While they prefer young draft horses that can be fed up and gain quickly, they will also buy heavy-built animals of other breeds.


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## Hondo

Oh, the rest of the story.


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## WildAbtHorses

oh my...

In Japanese cuisine, raw horse meat is called sakura (桜) or sakuraniku (桜肉, sakura means cherry blossom, niku means meat) because of its pink color. It can be served raw as sashimi in thin slices dipped in soy sauce, often with ginger and onions added. In this case, it is called basashi (馬刺し).

Live horses shipped from Canadian airports to Japan for slaughter By Katie Dangerfield 2017
https://globalnews.ca/news/3359253/...rom-canadian-airports-to-japan-for-slaughter/

"In 2016, more than 300 horses were shipped from Winnipeg to Japan"


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## SilverMaple

The number is far higher for horses going overseas than a few hundred out of Winnipeg. Japanese buyers are snatching up the majority of the heavy horses at a lot of sales. Thousands. Likely tens of thousands. Mostly draft horses or draft crosses. I have heard several notifications to breeders of draft horses to either set high reserves, stick to the high-end show hitch sales, or sell privately if they don't want their draft colts going to slaughter. Unfortunately, at the price they're bringing, slaughter is much more lucrative than selling them to someone to use, so a lot still end up at the sales selling to the Asian market.


One seller I spoke to was distraught finding out his team sold to meat rather than as a good, broke farm team. He was trying to buy them back, and was told the horses were going to be either flown out of Seattle or put on a ship, slaughtered en route, and offloaded packaged and ready to eat in Japan. He was trying to intercept the load, but I don't know if he was able to buy his horses back or not. There were at least 140 horses from that sale alone headed for Asia, and that doesn't count the ones going to Canada or Mexico to kill.


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## mred

A lot of sellers would not sell their horses if they knew they would going to slaughter. One reason I plan on keeping mine and not getting any more at my age. I have 200 acres and a backhoe when the time comes.
I understand the kill market. And I understand at times that is the best end. But it should be done as humane as possible. One reason that I would not object to slaughter houses opening in the US with the proper regs and inspections.
Or slowing down the breeding. More registered retirement pastures for older horses. If I were 20 years younger, I might keep another 5 or 6 to live out their lives. But 5 or 6 would not be a dent in the problem.


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## Hondo

A question in my mind. If there are statistics on horses going to Canada and Mexico for slaughter, where are the statistics of horses going to Japan for slaughter?


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## Hondo

Here's a discussion of a bill introduced June 29, 2019 to make it illegal to ship horses ANYWHERE to be slaughtered for human consumption.


Don't know the status of the bill but sounds like people in high places are trying to get something done.


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## boots

I personally don't object to eating horse meat. 

While I do object to horses being shipped long distances for processing in another country, I would rather horses be processed in the US.


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## Knave

I have no objection either to the humane slaughter of horses, and I think it an obvious lack of resource management in the United States to halt the production of horse meat. Like the op, I do agree that we have a vast resource at our availability, sorely misused and mistreated.

We raise cattle, which I have explained. I also explained that we take care of the land. Anything which is an asset is usually protected. The horses have become a bad joke. People with a serious lack of knowledge hold the power currently, and we can all see the result of that.

So, I read your discussion about creating more government control of horse ownership. I wonder why anyone would be so free to lose their personal power. 

I once held a position in politics. I didn’t enjoy it, but that is a whole other topic. This is what I witnessed. All of the people had good intentions, just as the op does in this case. Where they were mistaken was in believing that their good intention overrode the actual knowledge of the general public and of the people in positions which accomplished certain tasks. It was not an intentional arrogance, but I believe when we look into our own depths, our convictions that we can make better decisions than others is in fact arrogance.

Most people who are horse owners do very well. They are more knowledgeable about their own horses in their own environments than others. Like ranchers having a vast knowledge that is completely overlooked in a most often unjustified fear of bad intent. Sure, there are bad horse owners, but most of them are not, and creating rules which completely overlook little nuances and important facts, is a detriment to 99 percent of the horses in benefiting the 1.

In my public position we were given an extra power because of how some circumstances lined up. Once that was solved do you think we gave the power back to the rightful owner? No. We kept the power and tried to grasp for more. It was all in good intention, but it wasn’t right because we were not the best apt to make the decisions we chose to make.

This is true of most grabs for control. Do not be inclined to believe you know more than you do. Then take that to a larger perspective in the whole situation. As Americans we have given a lot more power to our government than maybe we have realized.


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## COWCHICK77

Very well put @Knave.

I was trying to think of a way to say, the people who are most qualified to be in control of making decisions usually don't get involved or don't last long in those powered positions. Unfortunately leaving those who are the least qualified to so.


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## WildAbtHorses

I believe:
1. Domestic horses should be licensed.
2. Horses should have their own classification and subclasses instead of the livestock or pet classifications.
3. Any American horse being sent to slaughter should be humanely, and under strict USDA Inspections, be killed and processed in the United States. Fresh meat can be delivered anywhere in the World in a few short hours, including Japan.

My heart goes out to the owner of those drafthorses. He should have had the option to purchase them back or put restrictions on the sale, e.g., no kill buyers.

It would be great to have retirement pastures for loved horses (and especially unloved ones) and to have the option of a backhoe and the back 40 at the end. R.I.P.

Safeguard American Food Exports Act of 2019 (SAFE Act, H.R. 961) is a bipartisan bill introduced in Congress to end the slaughter of American equines: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/961/all-info


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## WildAbtHorses

If appointed Wild Horses & Burros sole caretaker, this is what I would do:

1. Setup at least one Outpost for each HMA and staff each Outpost with a highly-skilled diverse team (veterinarian, trainer, groomer, tracker-hunter-butcher, etc.).
2. Inventory my responsibilities (yes, all wild horses and burros' information entered into a database).
3. Run Wild Horses & Burros statistical (need the numbers) and management (need the stats on each) reports off my comprehensive database. These reports will allow me to make informed decisions about herds and individual animals.
4. To Be Continued.

If each one of those Wild Horses & Burros were under my care, I would treat them like you treat your horses.

I would be their mother-hen. (And, no room for politics only good American common sense.)


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## Hondo

I forgot to post the discussion of the recent bill to end the shipping of horses out of the US for slaughter.


https://www.onlineequine.com/bill-introduced-to-end-horse-slaughter-export-and-us-slaughter.


Some of my thoughts on the bill:


Horses in the US are not raised for human consumption and therefore do not have regulations against drugs being used that are banned for animals raised for human consumption. The result is that horse meat from US horses is not considered safe for human consumption.


So why are we allowing horses to be shipped to other countries for human consumption? That seems to make us implicit in people being served food that we know may be or is tainted and unfit for human consumption.


If for no other reason, I do support this bill, if it hasn't already failed, and would support further efforts to get it passed if it has already failed.


I believe the bill would have some very positive effects on the world of horses:


1. People and organizations that breed just to see what comes out with the knowledge that the horses can be easily gotten rid of if they don't turn out would find that kill buyers and kill pens no longer exist. They would have to euthanize the unwanted horses themselves if no other way could be found. The prospects of this scenario would, I believe, result in a huge drop in the birth of unwanted horses.


2. Kill buyers in the area where I live pay $75-$100 per horse and will drive to the owners to pick them up. Some of the excess horses by over producing horse owners are sold to people looking for or wanting a horse at a significantly reduced price to avoid the option of the kill buyer.


This reduces the overall price of horses on the market. In general, the more that is paid for a horse, or anything for that matter, the better care the horse will receive. 



3. With the increased price of horses due to the reduced birth rate and availability, the adoption of BLM horses would likely go up. Almost guaranteed. How much? Don't have a clue. I read that 240,000 have gone out for adoption since the program was instituted.


I personally am on the side being completely against the consumption of horse meat:


1. Because of their flighty nature and difficulty in handling for slaughter, I do not believe they are an animal that is suitable to be raised for human consumption and slaughter.


2. Also for the same reason I am opposed to dogs being raised for human consumption. Cats, dogs, and horses interact with humans to the degree they do because of so many similarities they have with us. I will not point fingers at other countries or really at anyone but my own preference is to live in a country or society where these three animals are outlawed for human consumption. I am too emotionally connected to these animals to eat one just as I am with my fellow humans.


I don't know how the statistic was arrived at but the reports I've read is that 80% of the population is against horses being slaughtered for human consumption or shipped over the borders for the same. So apparently I'm not alone in my feelings.


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## SilverMaple

In the draft horse market, slaughter keeps the prices UP. When a yearling draft horse sells for $3,000 to go to Japan to be slaughtered, it's hard for someone looking for a pleasure horse to compete....The US kill buyers don't pay nearly that much for their animals.


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## COWCHICK77

I agree slaughter keeps the horse market strong. The reason why there are so many unwanted horses is there is no way to dispose of them.
In the 90's I made a living off sale barn horses. A buyer had to outbid the kill buyers and I don't see anything wrong with that.

If horses are heavily regulated by licensing, regulated breeding, who is going to enforce it? And at what cost?
I think the money will be better spent to open and regulate the slaughterhouses.
If people want to sell horses for meat to overseas markets use similar programs as the beef industry does to produce safe meat.

I don't think over-regulating domestic or wild horses is the answer, look where it has gotten us.


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## Hondo

RE: The reason why there are so many unwanted horses is there is no way to dispose of them.


Comment: Now my take on the situation is exactly opposite to yours. My belief is that since there is an easy way to dispose of them through the kill market people are careless about what and how many are bred. If it were actually more difficult to dispose of, people would be more reluctant towards creating too many more horses than are wanted as sales to people actually wanting a horse or euthanasia would be the only two options left.


RE: If horses are heavily regulated by licensing, regulated breeding, who is going to enforce it?_* And at what cost*_?


Comment: Paid for by the fines levied on the violators.


RE: I think the money will be better spent to open and regulate the slaughterhouses.


Comment: That would just give the over breeders a quick and ready way to off the excess rather than face up to it and do the euthanization themselves, something that most would like to avoid by handing it over to someone else. Out of sight-out of mind.


RE: If people want to sell horses for meat to overseas markets use similar programs as the beef industry does to produce safe meat.


Comment: That would mean regulations on what medications could be used on horses. No more bute as that renders horse meat not acceptable for human consumption. Other medications as well that are common to horse owners. Plus, due to the genetic built in volatility of horses, crazy spooky, as opposed to cattle, horses are simply not able to be ranched in the manner that cattle are and certainly not slaughtered humanely. One person that likely has more knowledge than any one else in the world in that area flatly claims that it is impossible to humanely slaughter a horse because of their heavy fear reactions.


RE: I don't think over-regulating domestic or wild horses is the answer, look where it has gotten us. 



Comment: Again, our individual takes on the situation is at opposite poles. My take is that we are where we are from UNDER regulation.


SilverMaple Where is it that a yearling draft sells for $3,000.00? And why since the same amount of horse meat could be purchased at a much lower cost?


.......................


Talking to an old friend who just moved to Arizona near me. He said to have over 5 dogs in California now required a kennel license. And anyone with a female that had pups whether in a kennel or not were required to have the pups sterilized by the age of 6 months or face heavy fines.


Seems to have made a significant dent in unwanted and euthanized dogs so far.


If anyone looks across the barnyard, yours, mine, anyone's, and looks at the barn yard livestock, horses hold a place that most pigs, cows, sheep, goats, chickes, etc do not hold. Closer to the dog and cat than these other barnyard livestock.


Within the culture of the United States of America, the horse holds a unique place in the hearts of most people. Not saying it's right or wrong. Just saying it's there. Just as the cow is in India.


Cultural feelings and sensibilities must be recognized and respected.


Being in a democratic society, hopefully this thing will work out to the will of the people.


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## Hondo

.... and then factor in the fact that even minimal equine care bordering on neglect can be quite expensive when compared with bovine care.


Those dollars and cents nuts and bolts determine the horse to be not an good economical choice or candidate for growing a meat supply.


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## Hondo

*H.R.961 - Safeguard American Food Exports (SAFE) Act*








The permissive allowance of such horsemeat used for human consumption poses a serious public health risk."1
The US Food and Drug Administration currently bans the presence of 379 common equine drugs in animals slaughtered for human consumption. However, there is no procedure in place to ensure that American horses, sold to slaughterhouses and killed for human consumption, are free of these FDA-banned substances. When horses are sold, especially through an auction, there is no required transfer of information regarding the substances they received during their lifetime. Therefore, there is no mechanism in place to ensure horses frequently bought at auction by killer buyers have not been given dangerous substances before they become part of the food chain.
Horses are routinely given substances that are dangerous to humans. Most American horse owners do not imagine that their horses may someday be slaughtered for human consumption, and almost universally give their horses medications, antibiotics, ointments, wormers, and other substances labeled "not for animals intended for human consumption." These substances may remain in the body for long periods of time.
A study published in May 2010 in the journal _Food and Chemical Toxicology_ found that substances routinely given to American horses cause dangerous adverse effects in humans. One commonly used anti-inflammatory drug, phenylbutazone (bute), can be lethal if ingested by people. The most serious effect of bute on humans is bone-marrow toxicity, leading to agranulocytosis (failure to produce white blood cells, causing chronic infections) and aplastic anemia (insufficient production of red and white blood cells and platelets). Similar blood conditions such as leucopenia, hemolytic anemia, pancytopenia, and thrombocytopenia may also occur in people who consume bute. The National Toxicology Program has determined that bute is a carcinogen. For these reasons, the FDA bans this substance for human consumption.
The February 28, 2010 _Paulick Report_ published a study revealing that more than 9 out of 10 racehorses are commonly administered bute before they race. Racehorses are frequently shipped to Mexico and Canada to be slaughtered for human consumption when their performance flags, often within days or weeks of receiving their last dose of bute. Any consumer of this meat, which can be ground together with beef and offered to consumers without proper identification, could be unwittingly ingesting banned substances, with potentially lethal results.
The European Union has a policy prohibiting importation of the meat of any horse who has ever received bute. Nitrofurazone, the most common wound ointment given to American horses, is also prohibited for use on any horse whose meat is shipped to the European community.
The United States needs to shut down the horse slaughter channels that currently put consumers at risk, and ensure that meat from American horses is not jeopardizing the health and lives of consumers.









*POISON: It's what's for dinner when horsemeat is on the menu*
_Those promoting horsemeat consumption claim horsemeat is leaner (and therefore, supposedly, healthier) than beef. What they fail to point out is that, unlike cattle, horses are not raised for meat, and are given hundreds of legal and illegal drugs rendering their meat unsafe for human consumption in the United States and abroad. However, because of confusing and conflicting US and foreign laws, horse meat slips through the regulatory cracks and is consumed overseas by unsuspecting diners. The diagram shows just a few of the banned and dangerous drugs that consistently end up in horse meat and on people's plates._


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## SilverMaple

Hondo, all those laws against breeding dogs and mandatory spay/neuter in California have driven the GOOD breeders elsewhere and now it's getting very difficult to purchase a purebred dog if you live in California. More and more breeders won't sell to that state because of the draconian laws. Make those same rules about horses, and pretty sure you'll be stuck where the dog people are stuck--- forced to get an animal from a shelter, and it's going to be the lab or pit-mix equivalent in horses, too. Too bad if that isn't the right dog/horse for you-- that's what's there so that's what you have to take. If that's fine with you, so be it, but I'd still prefer to be able to get the animal and breed of my personal choosing, thanks. 

Sorry, increased regulation is not the answer. Enforcing laws already on the books will do far more good.


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## Knave

@Hondo I’m pretty sure mustangs would not fall privy to any sort of having been doctored. Lol. A mountain mustang should be as clean as any deer. Many people I know who’ve eaten horse enjoy the meat.

If you want to go too far into the moral dilemma, how about all of the starving people? Couldn’t the horses butchered benefit those people? Or, if you think people damage the earth with overpopulation and should be allowed to starve to death, the same theory needs to be put into play on the mustangs. 

Personally, I don’t want to see horse or human starve. Life is what matters, not death which will be faced by every single one of us. Although we all experience death, many of us have never experienced hunger. Hunger is not something to be wished upon any one or thing.


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## boots

If we're going to respect cultures then we will want safe horsemeat for native Americans ( my in laws included), the Hispanic Mexicans ( my daughter's in laws), and European immagrants. Along with American ranchers who harvest their own if they want.

Not everyone dopes their horses, either. The one senior horse I have now is the first I've ever used meds on that would need time to clear, beyond the rare antibiotic. Out of hundreds.

And while I wouldn't care for a horse like I would a pig, such different needs. Mine do run like cattle. They are exceptionally lucky.


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## WildAbtHorses

Hondo thanks for your posts. It makes me wonder if America can be held responsible for tainted American horse meat processed and sold outside of the United States? A kill-buyer buys for only one reason to process the meat into the food pipeline. The U.S. Government sanctions this with "sale with no limitations."

If Japan was given a choice between a Mustang or a Draft, which would they pick and why?

So many dilemmas in today's society, and it is fascinating about California's bold move and its impact and repercussions.

I believe the more Americans talks about horses and horse meat and the human and equine starving populations along with the Global horse meat market, the better. Pragmatic, instead of emotional thinking, is required? We need to find a balance that Americans can accept.

We're still looking for the ideal solution for the 100,000 unwanted wild horses and burros. They have my prayers, but they need more than my thoughts and prayers. So what do I do?

"Saving one horse will not change the world, but surely for that one horse, the world will change forever." Karen Davison Note: changed dog to horse.


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## Hondo

Well, the wide range of world views is certainly being documented.


I am somewhat puzzled about why dog breeders would leave a state requiring licenses. Here is a list of dog breeder laws by state. A cursory overview leaves me even more puzzled why breeders would leave CA for another state. I for one would be hesitant to buy from them. Maybe someone could help me here? https://www.animallaw.info/topic/table-state-commercial-pet-breeders-laws



I am also still wondering where and why a kill buyer would pay $3,000.00 for a year old draft?


Sure, not everyone gives their animals any of the medications restricted for human consumption. But when most do, how is it to be determined which is which in a kill pen? With the state of horse care meaning most horses do, there would need to be certified horse meat growers to keep it sorted out. I doubt very much that growing horse meat solely for profit would be a profitably operation under any circumstances. That leaves it to what we have now, horses mostly that have had and do have the restricted medications in their body.


I do not believe it should be allowable for a country, any country, to knowingly allow unsafe food to be supplied to it's own citizens or the citizens of any country.


Much of the differences in attitudes, I believe, is based on religious backgrounds.


I was raised in the belief that animals were placed here on earth specifically for the use of humans. Period. I suspect this is the predominant belief.


I no longer subscribe to this belief but rather tend to view animals as in the same boat with all of us. I tend to think we, animals included, are destined for the same great unknown.


While my religious beliefs do not specifically define my position on horses, it does clearly have an effect. And this I believe is true for others as well. The alignment of opinions under that scenario is monumentally difficult.


If someone wants to consume safe horse meat I personally could not condemn them for it. That's not what I'm about. But the people selling horse meat should be responsible for certifying it safe for human consumption.


That would mostly leave a person to raising their own horse for consumption which I doubt there is a law against nor do I believe there should be. It is legal in 44 states to kill and consume cats and dogs. Just not to sell them for consumption.


Again, considering the costs of raising a horse for meat, I doubt many would do it.


The 28,000 acre ranch I recently spent 5 years on has on average 20 horses that live on the range like cattle. But during the winter months they get around 12 pounds of pellets per day to supplement the sparse winter feed at a cost of around $1,100.00 per month. Feed that the cattle do not get. 



There's much less money spent per pound of beef than per pound of horse.



I suspect this truth would mostly hold up for any that have horses on the range.


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## WildAbtHorses

Makes me smile and have hope...


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## WildAbtHorses

*If you can slaughter and consume dog, why not horse?*

"You can still legally eat dogs..." by Daniel Craig
It is not legal to kill your own pet or any pet. It is legal to have a licensed vet euthanize your terminally ill pet, either at home or at their office. ... It is legal to put down (kill humanely) a sick or badly injured pet and as long as that is done in a humane way it would not be against the law.
https://www.phillyvoice.com/you-can-still-eat-some-dogs-pennsylvania/

"It’s Still Legal To Eat Dogs In The United States–And Yes, It Happens" by Mike Clark
California, Georgia, Hawaii, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, and Virginia are the only states that explicitly outlawed dog meat. It is, however, illegal in all states for slaughterhouses to handle dogs, and it’s illegal for stores to sell the meat. This doesn’t prevent an individual from killing and eating a dog or selling meat to another person, so long as it’s not through a store. The laws among the states that have banned the consumption of dog meat vary, and some states allow citizens to kill and eat dogs so long as the killing is done “humanely”.
https://dogtime.com/advocacy/49933-still-legal-eat-dogs-united-states-yes-happens

BTW I have no interest to kill or consume either but if American's can consume dog meat they have to be open to consuming horse meat. I would think.


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## Hondo

RE: ....if American's can consume dog meat they have to be open to consuming horse meat. I would think..


Comment: Just because it legal to eat Fido one cannot conclude that US citizens are "open" to it. It is legal to eat horse meat in all 50 states, but again one cannot conclude from that fact that US citizens are "open" to it.


If the statistic that 80% of US citizens are opposed to horse slaughter in the US or shipping to other countries for slaughter is accurate, that would indicate being less than "open" to eating horse meat although I would suspect the majority of that 80% would not be inclined to prevent people from slaughtering Trigger for their own use, which I'm sure is happening.


I'm sure we can at least reach a 100% consensus against cannibalism even though it apparently still exists in some parts of the world.



A search turned up several sites indicating it still exists in some cultures. Here's the first site: https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/146...ld-where-cannibalism-is-still-alive-and-well/


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## WildAbtHorses

^ if that 80% statistic came from the questionnaire that I reviewed it is not a valid representation of the United States population nor of the situations.

That is why I created and shared a new proposed new questionnaire for Americans.


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## Hondo

Not sure that a poll on the HF would be representative of the statistical standards required for a true cross sectional representation of the US citizenry.



Nationwide Poll Reveals 7 Out of 10 Americans Oppose Horse Slaughter


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...f-horses-for-human-consumption-138494089.html


Wild Horses: Slaughter | netnebraska.org


And this: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...eline-in-america-now-available-300452703.html


...and this: https://www.amazon.com/Kill-Pen-Milton-Bagby/dp/B06XTSZV9W


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## WildAbtHorses

^ wow 

The comments on the 2017 documentary are fascinating.. 
“This documentary was pretty well done, although I felt it did not present both sides of the argument equally....” Laura

“I'd pretty much wager that old horses and any others that are slaughtered in the usa, go to dog food not human food.” Lady M.

“It's also a matter of private property rights. If John Doe wants to send his horse to be processed, or if he wants to keep him until the end of his days, that's really none of my, or anyone else's, business.” Open Range

“This documentary did not tell the truth about horse slaughter in the US. They portrayed these horses as young and sound.” Not the Whole Truth

- - -

“H.R. 503 is scheduled to go to a vote by the U.S. House of Representatives on September 7.” FYI this looks like 2007? “The process begins when owners across the country take their horses to a legitimate sale, never suspecting that within days their horse could end up on a plate in a high-end restaurant overseas.”

The ASPCA survey is from 2012?

The questionnaire I proposed was just for this forum to review. The actual questionnaire would be executed by a professional and objective polling organization.

- - - 
This article doesn’t have a date or author but is published via PBS and NPR. Informative.
Wild Horses: Slaughter | netnebraska.org
“Today, an average of over 100,000 American horses are slaughtered annually at U.S. and Canadian plants.”

- - -
Thanks Hondo!


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## Hondo

Of particular notice to me was that a certain percentage of hamburger meat in the US had horse DNA proving there was in fact horse meat mixed in.


Then this thought came to me: At $100.00 per head, horses are selling for about 1/10th of what cattle would sell. A bull or steer that heavy would sell for $1,000.00.


So if someone could find a back door method of adding say 1/2 horse meat and selling the product at the same price, there'd be a bit of money to be made. As always, follow the money.


I, for one, am not about addressing what anyone does with their dog, cat, or horse. I'm more about the humane treatment of ALL animals and it has been more than adequately detailed that a horse simply cannot be slaughtered humanely.


Many people humanely euthanize their horse to be used for zoo animals. I would not object to that being done with my horse or my own body. But I'd prefer not to be tortured to death.


I personally did not understand the video to be saying that all the kill pen horses were young and fit but rather an effort to emphasize that all were not old and at the point of death.


I'm sure if ten people watch the video and write a summary, all would be different to some degree.


I have actually been leaning in the direction of slaughter houses reopening in the US but have slid off in the direction that I think it would increase rather than decrease the problem of overpopulation.


Horses are simply not raised or cared for as a food species in the US nor thought of as such. 



So why do we decide, "Oh, that horse is old and fat. Sell him at the kill pen for 1/10th the price of beef and ship him to Canada/Europe even if the meat is tainted". 



If the slaughter of US born horses was banned in the US or being shipped out of the US I am adamant that the birth rate of horses in the US would fall dramatically.


That's my position and I'm sticking to it.


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## SilverMaple

Fact: 

- there are too many horses in the US to remove the slaughter option off the table completely.
- horses are viewed as livestock by many, and many see no problem with selling to slaughter and getting some money for the horse
- there is a demand worldwide for horse meat. If US horses aren't slaughtered, horses raised elsewhere will be.
- removing the US slaughterhouses as options has meant more horses starved, abandoned, or otherwise suffering.
- if the countries importing horsemeat don't demand the withdrawal period or test for drugs, that's not the US's fault
- further putting restrictions on horse ownership in the US will cause more issues than it solves


Slaughter is not pleasant to think about, but there are simply too many horses, and not enough homes for them-- especially older animals or those whose working life is nearing its end, and nice as it would be to give every horse a good home until it dies of old age, that's just not practical. Can we expect every horse owner who can only afford to board/care for one horse to simply stop riding altogether for 20 years if her 6 y.o. horse comes up with a chronic lameness? That's unrealistic for most people, and I think it's a lot more irresponsible to try to offload a horse like that to a 'retirement home' than it is to put him down or send him to slaughter. Even if euthanizing a useless horse were more widely accepted, that's still a huge disposal problem in the US, where there simply aren't options for what to do with your dead horse in many areas-- and that is driving the low-end slaughter market in much of the country. I went to a low-end sale a few weeks ago for the tack auction, and hung around for part of the horse sale, and about half of the horses in there should have been euthanized rather than sold, but you know why they weren't? Because the rendering company in our area no longer takes horses. We've had so much rain it's now illegal to bury them with the water table so high, even if you own your own land. The city/county dumps won't take them. It's $1000+ to have a horse cremated, and that's without factoring in the cost and ordeal of transporting a 1200 lb dead animal 90 miles to the nearest place that does it. So, that leaves a lot of families with taking their old, lame, or sick horse to a sale and dumping him tearfully because they don't have any option of disposing of him if he dies at their place. This is agricultural country. People have a hard time wondering what the big deal is when it comes to slaughtering horses vs. cattle and hogs. After all, cattle and hogs live short lives and are sold for meat-- that's their purpose for being here. Horses usually live long, well-cared-for lives and if they end it at the slaughterhouse feeding another person or animal or becoming fertilizer or something useful, that also has its place. Personally, a small slaughterhouse for horses in each state would be an ideal solution-- horses could be hauled in by the owner or kill buyer, paperwork checked, and killed humanely, then processed and shipped overseas, sold for dog food, whatever. My biggest issue with slaughter is the 2-3 day journey on overloaded trucks and the lack of oversight in humane care, especially in Mexico. Horses in northern states going across the border to the Canadian slaughter plants likely have it far better.

Opening US slaughterhouses will mean a shorter journey for slaughterbound horses, more regulation for humane slaughter and transport, and for end-of-life horses, that's a good thing. Owning horses is increasingly a more expensive proposition, and disposing of them is becoming very difficult. We need to address the disposal options if we want to get slaughter off the table. We euthanize dogs who are unwanted--- perhaps similar facilities for horses are needed? A horse comes in, gets X amount of time, and if that time's up and he's not adopted, or if he has chronic health or behavior issues, he's euthanized. Figure out an economical and feasible disposal option, and that could work. But there are still a ton of people who have no problem with the pit mix dog picked up off the street and taken to the shelter dying because nobody wants him but lose their mind at the thought of a grade, untrained 5 y.o. quarter horse who's never been handled meeting the same fate. THAT's the problem, and I think it stems from the fact that most people, if they want, can figure out a way to have a dog as a pet, or a cat, or what have you. But a lot of people out there have always wanted a horse and don't have the option to do so, so they see the death of that horse as the loss of their dream, whether that's true or not.


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## Hondo

False: 

- there are too many horses in the US to remove the slaughter option off the table completely.
_having the slaughter availability, in the US or across a border increases overbreeding due to the ease of offing the excess._


- horses are viewed as livestock by many, and many see no problem with selling to slaughter and getting some money for the horse
_many in this case appears to equal 20%. far from a majority._


- there is a demand worldwide for horse meat. If US horses aren't slaughtered, horses raised elsewhere will be.
_that was El Chapo's reasoning. If he didn't supply the narcs, somebody else would....so what's the problem._


- removing the US slaughterhouses as options has meant more horses starved, abandoned, or otherwise suffering.
_the statistics indicated that closing the US slaughterhouses reduced the stolen horses showing up at the slaughter house. there is no statistic or durable information anywhere that more horses have starved due to US slaughter being closed. c'mon_


- if the countries importing horsemeat don't demand the withdrawal period or test for drugs, that's not the US's fault
_that was more or less pontius pilate's position.when ceremoniously washing his hands. didn't work for him. used car dealers are even no longer allowed to sell buyer beware.
_


- further putting restrictions on horse ownership in the US will cause more issues than it solves
_further putting restrictions on horse ownership in the US will solve more issues than it causes_

For the record, if US horses MUST be slaughtered, I would prefer it be done in US plants that are US inspected and designed for an as humane end as the cattle receive.


I understand where you're coming from. We farmed with a team until I was fourteen. Old horses were said to be going to the glue factory. I guess they made glue out of them. That was then. Now is now. A lot of things that seemed alright 100, 200, 300 years ago is not right now just on the basis that it was in the past.


At one time pillagers went out and destroyed a town for the plunder. That was the way it was. Might makes right. 



We are now a little more civilized and ponder our actions a little more carefully based on the present and not the past.


And in a way, I suppose that's what we are doing in this thread.


It is my understanding that land fills take dead horses. If euthanized in a trailer, disposal shouldn't be a problem. Dogs are rendered, at least they were I know from personal experience. I see no problem with rendering a euthanized horse. 



Selling horse meat on the hoof for 1/10the price of beef seems to invite shenanagondery. (spell check says....wha????)


I don't wanna be eating hamburger with carcinogens and other harmful stuff in them.


I've been accused of having a mind like a bear trap.....I'm still waiting to hear more info about that $3k 2 YO draft?


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## WildAbtHorses

^^ My take aways:

Not being a horse owner, I have never thought about how you would dispose of an animal that weighs anywhere from 840 to 2,200 pounds. It never occurred to me that a thief would steal a horse and sell it to a slaughterhouse. Can Americans donate or sell their unwanted horses to Zoos?

HSUS’ Resources for making a humane end of life decision for your horse
https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/humane-horse-remains-disposal


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## WildAbtHorses

JUST A NOTE: This forum thread was created to discuss America's Wild Horses and Burros (in the wild and in holding pens) in preparation for the next BLM Wild Horse Advisory's meeting in Washington, D.C. October 30-31, 2019.

However, it appears the United States has a systemic problem with the majority of American horse populations; especially concerning what to do with the excess and unwanted, but even more importantly, how that excess came into existence.

This forum has brought to light what years of human inaction and reactionary behavior have done to American horses and American horse populations. It has also spotlighted the need for proactive measures — not necessary controls and tracking on individual ownerships. But controls and monitoring for a humane, efficient, and effective system of handling horses in general in America.

What those proactive measures and monitoring should be is the question. IMO


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## Hondo

https://www.humanesociety.org/resources/humane-horse-remains-disposal


The link above posted by the OP has information important enough that I believe it should be included in a sticky. It is an important link for anyone considering horse ownership.


Edit: Yes, there are horses donated to zoos for predator food.


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## SilverMaple

Young draft horses sell in that price range all the time, Hondo. Often to Asian meat buyers. They were loading trucks up by the pen full last year at Waverly, and again at a sale in Ohio and Montana, all with young drafts selling at high prices bound for Asia. The draft sales attract those buyers, because they can pick up a lot of horses in one place, and draft horses gain faster than cattle, plus are a delicacy. Even paying high prices, they make a handsome profit considering what the meat sells for in Japan. And at those prices, it's hard for some larger producers, particularly Amish, not to unload unsold weanlings/yearlings rather than feed them through the winter with what hay will cost this year, and how little of it most people were able to put up because of rain. 

I sent a friend with $1250 cash to Waverly a year ago and asked him to bring back a nice lighter draft or draft cross yearling for me, as in the past, you could get one for $400-$600 if he was on the wild side. He didn't. They all sold well over my budget to the Asian buyers. He left in tears-- a crusty old farmer, seeing all those colts and other young horses bound for slaughter and at prices that kept a lot of other buyers out.


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## Hondo

It is still puzzling to me why Asian buyers, or any other buyers for that matter, would pay $3,000.00 for something that could be bought for $100.00 elsewhere.


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## WildAbtHorses

Hi. I have just started to compile a book of the information that we have generated. If you would like to follow along here is the link and please feel free to suggest content and edits:

https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7

Hopefully, I won't be too slow in completing it, but there is a great deal of information to process into a concise little book. My goal is to have it finished and distributed to the BLM's Wild Horses & Burros Advisory Board by their October 29-31, 2019 meeting.


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## Hondo

That's not very far away.


Regarding a sentence from one of your earlier posts above: "especially concerning what to do with the excess and unwanted, but even more importantly, how that excess came into existence."




Comment: Race horses start around 2 YO. Some cattle ranches start their horses at 2YO. But some wait until later for a hard days work. A horses joints don't fully develop until around 6 YO. Similar to youths playing foot ball when they really shouldn't because the joints are so sensitive to damage.


Race horses are done at an early age but many go on to be used by private individuals. Others get shipped.


But all private horses, no matter their background or care, will begin to fall off dramatically athletically at 20 or before. But a horse with food and water will often live a domesticated life to 30 years.


They can often be ridden on gentle trails just walking from 20 to 30 without any heavy exertion.


That leaves a ton of horses basically out of work at 20. Many ranches have enough land that they retire the horses to the field to live out their days. Some do some hoof care and medications, some don't.


But most of these private horse owners do not live on a large ranch. A small acreage or a barn arrangement. Horses are expensive to care for and many cannot afford to support an aging horse that does not fit into their riding style.


Some may be of the track througbreds and fine horses but not able to perform to the owners desire.


So if you have X number of horses, 1/3 of them would be between 20 and 30, if that is, they lived out their lives. But there is not rest home or senior centers for most horses. As a result they are shipped over the border as very cheap meat. 



Livestock, to me, are raised for food. Horses, dogs, and cats in the US culture are not predominantly raised for food.


If a person owns a horse and wishes to euthanize it humanely, I'd be hard put to back a law to stop them. But I will vigorously back a bill to permanently ban the slaughter in the US or being shipped for slaughter. If this were to happen, the excess of horses would surely slowly shrink for certain.


If this happens, many horses may still end their life prematurely, but it will be more honorable and much more humane.


Cats and dogs can love us and be our best friends until the day they die a natural death. Too bad it can't be that way for horses.


I deeply respect the people who can and do keep their horses to the end as they would a cat or dog.


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## WildAbtHorses

Morning Hondo. What is your argument against U.S. slaughterhouses for horses? And, in your opinion, what is the alternative?

Is it --you do not want slaughter as an easy disposal option for horse breeders and for horses that can no longer fulfill their owner's purpose?

Remember we are focused on Wild Horses & Burros, but yes we are taking into consideration domestic horses too. 

From these discussions, my impression is that the majority are for U.S. regulated and Federally inspected slaughter, even at the State and possible at the local level (e.g., less travel and more available humane option).


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## WildAbtHorses

The BLM said it will award contracts to facilities in Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming that can accommodate 500-3,500 wild horses and burros in safe, humane conditions. Corrals will serve as short-term holding and preparation facilities for animals to be transferred to off-range pastures or adoption and sale locations further east. Published June 2019.

Question: What would one of these facilities look like? 500 horses? 3,500 horses? What are the basic requirements for operating a horse sanctuaries? Are there rules and regulations for horse sanctuaries?

IMO It has already been agreed on that a wild horse in captivity can have issues with diet, teeth, hoofs, fighting. And requires to be gentled in order for humans to provide the necessary hands-on healthcare and diet monitoring.

Question: Does anyone know how other countries (like England) handle end-of-life for horses, including disposal? America cannot be the only country facing this unbearable and heavy burden.


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## WildAbtHorses

Is the reason Japan goes to Canada for horses because the U.S. supplies so many horses to Canada?

Why wouldn't Japan go to Australia for horses?


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## Hondo

Oh man! I've been called "Fifty Questions" more than once in my life. All good questions that I'd like to know the answer to also.


I'll try for an answer to the question directed at me, why I oppose slaughter of horses in the US.


Yes, I am very steadfast in my opinion/belief that the existence of an easy disposal of unwanted horses is a major contributor to the perpetuated existence of unwanted horses. I have arguments supporting that belief but won't detail them at this point.


The second reason is that I do not believe it is possible to handle horses humanely in a slaughter house environment. Horses are just too aware and hyper sensitive to be humanely handled in such an environment. Temple Grandin who knows more than most and much more than I agrees.


The third reason is my own emotional attachment to horses which is not really a valid reason by most accounts. That means I'm opposed to it on the same basis as slaughtering dogs for human consumption.


Humans, I believe, are emotionally and socially connected to cats, dogs, and horses to the degree they are because of social similarities. Not sure whether to include that as a reason or not, but it's a sentiment that I do feel.


Beyond that, I am really opposed to the industrialization of animals. In many ways they are becoming to be treated with no more feeling than a head of cabbage is treated. That's probably not a fourth reason but it does likely at least affect my adamacy of the first two reasons given.


A note about the upcoming meeting of the BLM wild horse and burro advocacy meeting. Two members, Ben Masters and Ginger Kathren both care for horses deeply and I believe basically to the same degree. Both, however, have almost diametrically opposed views on how to solve the problem of over population.


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## 281187

Hondo said:


> The second reason is that I do not believe it is possible to handle horses humanely in a slaughter house environment. Horses are just too aware and hyper sensitive to be humanely handled in such an environment. Temple Grandin who knows more than most and much more than I agrees.
> 
> Mind providing a citation for that? Because Temple Grandin has a section _dedicated_ to horse slaughter on her website. https://www.grandin.com/humane/questions.answers.horse.slaughter.html
> 
> So by all accounts, she does believe that horses can be slaughtered humanely. Not only that, but she blatantly says in the above link that horses being slaughtered in a "poorly run" plant theoretically located in America would be better than death via puntilla in Mexico for said horses. Now obviously this section of her website is dated to 2012, so maybe she's changed her mind sometime in the last seven years?
> 
> But by all accounts probably not, because see also- https://www.denverpost.com/2015/11/25/horse-slaughter-inhumane-some-say-no/
> 
> This news article is from 2015, where she also expresses support that horse slaughter can be done humanely from an animal welfare point of view.
> 
> 
> Another citation from 2012- https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/F...bout-unwanted-horses-and-horse-slaughter.aspx
> 
> Scroll down to question number twelve, she was directly asked and again expressed support for horse slaughter.
> 
> (On another note, that site is a lovely source for information about horse slaughter in general)


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## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> Question: Does anyone know how other countries (like England) handle end-of-life for horses, including disposal? America cannot be the only country facing this unbearable and heavy burden.


According to this: https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CDP-2016-0229 

The UK has five horse-slaughterhouses and they had reportedly processed some 12,431 horses over the previous three years. The article is dated to 2016, so not exactly current, but hardly far off in the past either. I'd wager that those numbers are still relatively accurate. Perhaps someone from the UK could pop in with more information? 

Also of note, slaughter is being used to control at least one of the UK's native semi-feral pony herds. https://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/856402/Dartmoor-ponies-horse-meat-food-slaughter 
That article dates to 2017.


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## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> Is the reason Japan goes to Canada for horses because the U.S. supplies so many horses to Canada?
> 
> Why wouldn't Japan go to Australia for horses?


I'm not well-versed in Japan's lust for horseflesh- I'll need to read up on that. But from what little I do know, it wouldn't surprise me if Japan goes to Canada for horses simply because it's easier to ship large numbers of them out of that country. Japan seems to prefer to import their horses live from their country of origin and slaughter them _in_ Japan, as opposed to just importing horse-meat. 

Far easier to do that in a country that both allows horse slaughter and has several airports easily within flying distance from Japan's shores. Winnipeg, Edmonton and Calgary are the most popular Canadian cities to ship live horses out to Japan apparently. 


As for Australia... I'm even less well-versed on that topic than I am with Japan/Canada. But I know that Australia does slaughter horses. In fact, that seems to be that fate that befalls most of Australia's own feral horses (They're called Brumbies).... when they're actually rounded up anyway. Australia seems to prefer employing trained marksmen and simply shooting the Brumbies from helicopters as their method of culling and eradication. 

Australia does export live horses to South Korea though. Maybe an Australian will chip in with more information?


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## Hondo

PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> Hondo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mind providing a citation for that? Because Temple Grandin has a section _dedicated_ to horse slaughter on her website.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I have not re-read in their entirety the the two books I have by Grandin but I did some searching via the indexes and did not find.
> 
> 
> I was certain it was in one of those books but maybe in an online interview? Or I dreamed it?
> 
> 
> Whatever the case, whether or not she did oppose it at one time, she obviously does not anymore. Too bad.
> 
> 
> I've had a bit of hands on experience handling both bovines and equines and remain in the opinion that horses simply cannot be humanely handled in a slaughter house environment.
> 
> 
> To supplant or replace my claim of Temple Grandin, I'll quote the website posted below:
> 
> 
> "Also, about 900,000 horses are humanely euthanized in the U.S. The infrastructure could easily absorb those sent to slaughter. The cost of humane euthanization and disposal in Washington state is between $50-$400."
> 
> 
> https://www.horsesforlife.org/why-ban-horse-slaughter.html
Click to expand...


----------



## mred

But the real question, What do we do with 40,000 wild horses in holding pens and another 40,000 excess horses on the lands in the west? 
Birth control on the remaining 27,000 could be done, so the problem does not come back. 
I grew up hunting. We only killed for food or shelter. If an animal is in pain, kill it. To kill 80,000 wild horses and let people in other parts of the world go hungry would be a sin. To bury this many horses would be a really big problem. 
We have to face the problems or they will get worst. 
We put millions of dogs and cats to sleep every year. No one likes it or wants to hear about it. But it still happens. 
If you were caught in the winter in a snow storm with your family and no way out for at least 3 weeks. You had shelter and heat by no food, would you kill the family dog or horse? 
Millions of people of the world are starving to death. I am just saying, we have a problem. I don't have a problem with horse meat feeding the hungry. I do have a problem with feeding the rich!


----------



## 281187

Hondo said:


> PahsimeroiFuzzy said:
> 
> 
> 
> To supplant or replace my claim of Temple Grandin, I'll quote the website posted below:
> 
> 
> "Also, about 900,000 horses are humanely euthanized in the U.S. The infrastructure could easily absorb those sent to slaughter. The cost of humane euthanization and disposal in Washington state is between $50-$400."
> 
> 
> https://www.horsesforlife.org/why-ban-horse-slaughter.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read the link, I found no citations for that specific piece of information. In fact, when I copied and pasted the specific quote and googled it, I came across no factual studies or scientific articles.... but more anti-horse slaughter organizations making the exact same claim! *Also with no citation specifying where it came from naturally.*
> 
> With that being the case, I'm _extremely_ skeptical of it being actual fact and not just propaganda put forth by animal rights activists.
> 
> I'm uncertain of how one could even come up with a number like that in the first place. Theirs no national organization in the US that tracks horses, of course there are breed registries... but there are _many_ different breeds of horse being bred in the US and not to mention, not every horse that is register-able _is_ registered, plus grade horses exist in large numbers.
> 
> Was literally _every_ vet, landfill and rending facility in the country contacted and asked about how many horses they disposed of in the past year? I don't think that even with a dedicated volunteer force such a thing could be accomplished.
> 
> So I guess at some point someone found out how many horses are thought to be in the US and then estimated that a certain percentage died every year? That's.... just not good research and shouldn't be used to make claims, especially not if one is trying to get a law passed that will effect millions of people!
> 
> 
> Not to mention, costs of euthanasia and disposal is going to vary *widely* by area. Sure it _might_ be between $50 to $400 in Washington State, but what about Florida? Or New Hampshire? Hawaii? Alaska? Etc and so forth.
> 
> Plus you know, with so many people living paycheck to paycheck nowadays, I wager that many probably _couldn't afford_ a $400 expense. And naturally, just lugging your horse to the nearest livestock auction is always going to be less than that. Hell, you could even post an ad on Craigslist, have someone come to your house to pick the horse up and not spend a single penny!
> 
> People tend to take the path of least resistance and if they can make a buck off of it, they will. So I think "Horses For Life" are being *way* too optimist at best, if not being entirely truthful at worst.
Click to expand...


----------



## 281187

mred said:


> But the real question, What do we do with 40,000 wild horses in holding pens and another 40,000 excess horses on the lands in the west?


Shoot, slaughter or otherwise dispose of them. The holding pen system is a massive money-drain and is _not_ sustainable. If the BLM got rid of the excess Mustangs, they'd actually have enough money leftover to actively manage the ones still left on the range!



mred said:


> Birth control on the remaining 27,000 could be done, so the problem does not come back.


Birth control is definitely our best option for having a sustainable population of Mustangs in the future. Adoption was a good idea, but the truth of the matter is.... the vast majority of the US population has nothing to do with horses and has little to no idea how to train or otherwise take care of them. And those who do have horses or horse care experience either don't like Mustangs or already have horses specialized for whatever their equestrian interest is. 

What are Mustangs even good at? They're tough as heck and I know that they can make willing partners for the right people, but are they _really_ of much use to the American horse industry? Thoroughbreds and Standardbreds have the racing market cornered, Quarter horses, Paints and Appaloosa's have cattle work well-handled, Arabian's are _THE_ endurance horse.... etc and so forth. 

I guess that leaves the weekend warriors, those who just want a horse or two to love on and ride around a bit, maybe do some low-level competing and games and such. But by all accounts, the horse world is getting _more_ specialized, not less! Costs are going up, rural land is being developed quick-quick.... I'm just not sure the "Jack-Of-All-Trades" horse is a sustainable market for Mustangs to get into. Hell, the wonderful Old-Style Morgan is suffering as a sub-breed specifically _because_ there isn't much demand for a non-specialized horse anymore!



mred said:


> I grew up hunting. We only killed for food or shelter. If an animal is in pain, kill it. To kill 80,000 wild horses and let people in other parts of the world go hungry would be a sin. To bury this many horses would be a really big problem.


I have no idea how we'd even go about of disposing of 80,000 horse carcasses.... you can't bury horses in most places anymore, cremating them would just be crazy expensive and many rendering plants no longer accept horses. 



mred said:


> We have to face the problems or they will get worst.


It's been getting worse since the late 70's.



mred said:


> We put millions of dogs and cats to sleep every year. No one likes it or wants to hear about it. But it still happens.


Pretty much, Life really sucks sometimes, but occasionally something _really_ unpleasant has to be done for the greater good. I just wish that we could get on with it already.



mred said:


> If you were caught in the winter in a snow storm with your family and no way out for at least 3 weeks. You had shelter and heat by no food, would you kill the family dog or horse?


Easy, I'd kill the horse. The average horse weights 1,000 pounds, even if I could only salvage 50% of the body, I'd still have 500 pounds of meat to feed my family with. That would be ample enough food to feed all of us for three weeks  And that includes the dog. 



mred said:


> Millions of people of the world are starving to death. I am just saying, we have a problem. I don't have a problem with horse meat feeding the hungry. I do have a problem with feeding the rich!


Donating the carcasses to the poor might be something to look into, no need to worry about drug residues in Mustangs.


----------



## COWCHICK77

I haven't had the time to really read posts since last week. Hopefully this weekend or late next week I'll have time to join back into the conversation.

Anyhow, in between phone calls I read this and thought I'd share. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/scie...-controversy-now-foes-say-they-have-solution/


----------



## 281187

COWCHICK77 said:


> I haven't had the time to really read posts since last week. Hopefully this weekend or late next week I'll have time to join back into the conversation.
> 
> Anyhow, in between phone calls I read this and thought I'd share.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/scie...-controversy-now-foes-say-they-have-solution/



I've heard of that plan, mostly via wild horse "advocates" screaming about how it's going to cause Mustangs to go "extinct" :icon_rolleyes:. I have mixed feelings on it myself. 

On one hand, I'm pleased that there actually _is_ some sort of plan now. I'm astonished that the ASPCA, HSUS _and_ Return To Freedom are on-board with it. I don't care for any of those organizations, but at least they've actually agreed to help the BLM manage the Mustangs _for once_. Not to mention, with their combined political clout this plan might get approved and put into practice. 

But on the other hand.... I'm skeptical that this plan will change much of anything. It's expense, Congress seems reluctant to fund it (Seriously, only 6 millions dollars have been pledged out of an estimated 50 million that would be needed?), it puts *more* horses into holding, it doesn't allow for mass euthanasia, The Cloud Foundation and their ilk *hate* it and have been making sure that everyone within earshot knows of it.... 


I agree with more gathers and round-ups, I agree with bringing the Mustangs down to a sustainable number as quickly as possible, I agree with using sterilization (Gelding, Spaying and infertility drugs) to help keep numbers manageable once they've been brought down, I even agree with continuing to adopt out Mustangs while all of this is going on and as another way to manage the herds afterwards. So I'm pleased with the intended end result, just not the way it's apparently going to be executed.


----------



## SilverMaple

Hondo said:


> It is still puzzling to me why Asian buyers, or any other buyers for that matter, would pay $3,000.00 for something that could be bought for $100.00 elsewhere.



Where are you finding draft horses for $100?


----------



## SilverMaple

PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> What are Mustangs even good at? They're tough as heck and I know that they can make willing partners for the right people, but are they _really_ of much use to the American horse industry? Thoroughbreds and Standardbreds have the racing market cornered, Quarter horses, Paints and Appaloosa's have cattle work well-handled, Arabian's are _THE_ endurance horse.... etc and so forth.
> 
> I guess that leaves the weekend warriors, those who just want a horse or two to love on and ride around a bit, maybe do some low-level competing and games and such. But by all accounts, the horse world is getting _more_ specialized, not less! Costs are going up, rural land is being developed quick-quick.... I'm just not sure the "Jack-Of-All-Trades" horse is a sustainable market for Mustangs to get into. Hell, the wonderful Old-Style Morgan is suffering as a sub-breed specifically _because_ there isn't much demand for a non-specialized horse anymore!



This. There are already plenty of horses to fill the 'jack of all trades/nice pleasure/trail horse' market. I'd much rather have a Morgan or the old Crabbet style Arab or an all-around Quarter Horse/Paint than a Mustang....


Gaited horses are now gobbling up a large share of the pleasure horse/trail horse market as people (especially older people with sore backs/knees/hips) realize how nice it is to 'ride the glide' rather than trot, which also takes out a lot of homes that may have previously considered a mustang. Families cutting down from 10 horses to 2 who may have considered a mustang now need a horse that can be competitive at local open shows, run barrels or rope on Tuesday night jackpots, and go trail riding. Out go the 'pleasure horses' and in comes a more versatile mount with the right breeding behind him to be pretty, competitive, and marketable should they need to sell him.


----------



## 281187

SilverMaple said:


> This. There are already plenty of horses to fill the 'jack of all trades/nice pleasure/trail horse' market. I'd much rather have a Morgan or the old Crabbet style Arab or an all-around Quarter Horse/Paint than a Mustang....
> 
> 
> Gaited horses are now gobbling up a large share of the pleasure horse/trail horse market as people (especially older people with sore backs/knees/hips) realize how nice it is to 'ride the glide' rather than trot, which also takes out a lot of homes that may have previously considered a mustang. Families cutting down from 10 horses to 2 who may have considered a mustang now need a horse that can be competitive at local open shows, run barrels or rope on Tuesday night jackpots, and go trail riding. Out go the 'pleasure horses' and in comes a more versatile mount with the right breeding behind him to be pretty, competitive, and marketable should they need to sell him.



Exactly! Theirs an over-abundance of nice, wholly _domestic_ horses that could fulfill the need for the pleasure/trail horse market multiple times over in America. Mustangs you need to tame and train (Unless you adopt a "Mustang Makeover" contestant or a horse that's been thru the prison system) before they can even start being useful. And then you have to face the "Mustang stigma" if you want to sell the horse later on (Just.... good luck with that if you so happen to live in ranch country). 


With all of that in mind, the Mustang simply has little to no place in modern society. People don't rush out to adopt them unless they've already been tamed and trained (Totally understandable, since the vast majority of average Joe's simply aren't up for the effort), think that a particular horse is "pretty", get all caught up in the "magic of owning a piece of American history" or simply because they're a horse trainer (Or fancy themselves one anyway) and want to flex their training muscles a bit by taking a feral animal and turning it into a competitive star just to prove that they can/it can be done.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Thanks for the Washington Post link. "Very likely the wild horse situation will remain as it has for many years." Karin Brulliard

Laura Leigh, founder of Wild Horse Education site: "Washington Post; Touches the Surface of Wild Horse Controversy"
https://wildhorseeducation.org/author/artandhorseslauraleigh/


----------



## WildAbtHorses

The Washington Post article stated, "... the 1971 federal law that protects wild horses and burros allows the interior secretary to euthanize older and unadopted animals or sell them for slaughter."

Is this true? If so, then Velma Bronn Johnston — a.k.a. “Wild Horse Annie” knew that the wild horse populations needed to be regulated.

In the Washington Post article "... an issue so contentious that Congress, animal advocates, conservationists, ranchers and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) have long been in a stalemate."

BREAKS MY HEART - The horses have to suffer while we humans argue and debate what needs to be done. A stalemate!?!

A fifty (50) YEAR stalemate! HELP!!!


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Washington Post: "Over three years, major ranching and hunting organizations, represented by [J.J.] Goicoechea [Nevada's State Veterinarian] and others, quietly negotiated with animal welfare groups, including the Humane Society of the United States. These strange bedfellows recently unveiled a wild horse proposal that they say meets both sides’ goals: It keeps mustangs alive, and it gets a lot more off the land."

Why quietly negotiated? Why do they consider them "strange bedfellows" Don't we all want to do right by these horses?!?

Are they saying it will cost $50 million a year to provide birth control to wild horses? and the round-ups will continue as they have for the last 50 years. So the only thing changing is providing more fertility control?

"Over four hours, two helicopters pushed 117 horses into the trap." THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY!!!

I hope Laura Leigh, founder of Wild Horse Education, is being a bit melodramatic? But what if she isn't?
“If this proposal gets passed by Congress in any form, the program will collapse. Wild horses will be in danger of slaughter and mass killing once more. Wild herds will be decimated in numbers, brutalized through surgical experimentation, and their habitat will be destroyed by profit driven interests with no protections. In addition our voice to fight back will be gutted.”


----------



## boots

"Quietly" because if any of the "save every icon of the American West" people heard about it, they would protest and/or sue.

Yes. Laura Leigh is exaggerating with her hyperbolic language. 

The Wild Horse and Burro Act protects the equids.


----------



## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> The Washington Post article stated, "... the 1971 federal law that protects wild horses and burros allows the interior secretary to euthanize older and unadopted animals or sell them for slaughter."
> 
> Is this true? If so, then Velma Bronn Johnston — a.k.a. “Wild Horse Annie” knew that the wild horse populations needed to be regulated.



The original 1971 act contained no provisions for population management, it's had to be amended _several_ times in attempts to better manage the growing numbers of Mustangs. 

The adoption program didn't start until 1973, didn't actually give title to the "adopters" (Legally the Mustangs remained property of the federal government) and was only implemented in the Pryor Mountain Wild Horse Range (Home to the infamous Cloud and his band). 

The adoption program went nationwide in 1976 (Still effectively as a life-long foster program), this is the same year that helicopters and motorized vehicles were authorized to gather and transport Mustangs. 

It wasn't until *1978* that the adoption program took on it's modern-day form (Four horses per year, title relinquished to adopter after one year has passed) and the BLM _finally_ established the HMA's (Yes, really it did in fact take that long), began taking inventory of the herds, determine and set-up AML's and mandated yearly updated horse counts. 

So needless to say, the original act was _extremely poorly designed_ to say the *least.*




WildAbtHorses said:


> In the Washington Post article "... an issue so contentious that Congress, animal advocates, conservationists, ranchers and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) have long been in a stalemate."
> 
> BREAKS MY HEART - The horses have to suffer while we humans argue and debate what needs to be done. A stalemate!?!
> 
> A fifty (50) YEAR stalemate! HELP!!!



Now you finally see why this is such a problem and why it's only gotten worse in years gone by. The Mustangs can't be properly managed because Congress cuts money from the program, the "animal advocates" are convinced that the BLM and Forest Service are blood-thirsty murderers out to drive the animals to extinction, conservationists would rather the horses be eliminated altogether because they're a non-native species, the ranchers just want to make a living on land that's already not particularly productive.... Leaving the BLM essentially in the lurch, unable to please anybody. 

And this is the result- Nobody is happy or willing to compromise and the horses continue to suffer for it.


----------



## Hondo

I've expired my WPost allotment but getting the jist anyhow.


Thinking that the majority over five years old have their minds pretty much made up with little chance of change, which leaves only option of compromise. Of course that will take a lot of hammering to hammer out.


Going back to Temple Grandin, who I would really like to ask in person about her support of US slaughter. I'm also wondering how she feels about the current proposal to outlaw shipping across the border for slaughter as her main problem seemed to be lack of inspection in over the border houses.


Anyhow, what I wanted to mention was that Grandin first encountered cattle squeeze chutes at high school age and was amazed that it seemed to calm the cattle. She then with the help of her shop teacher constructed one for herself that was operated by air pressure by the one in the chute. She found it calmed her immensely, and of course as many know this went on to be the hug machine and gained would wide popularity. I even read recently where a hug backpack had been developed.


A head lock can be applied to a cow in a squeeze chute with out her hardly noticing it, a lock which holds the head fairly well, depending on the size of the cow.


During the last five years I have assisted in moving hundreds of cattle through a squeeze chute and can personally attest to this. The ranch had around 400 head of brood cows alone that needed to be treated at least once per year.


However, this does not work with horses. Not even the slaughter house Grandin designed had anything that remotely held a horse as does a cattle squeeze chute.


And there is no head or neck restraint. Even a trained calm horse will not easily allow strange object to approach his head. This is why it is so difficult to kill a horse with the captive bolt gun. And that is after a horrific battle to the stunning position.


If a horse were held in a cattle squeeze chute as cattle are, the horse will not calm but will continue to struggle until the horse can no longer struggle. But the slaughter house cannot wait that long. 13 shots to bring the one horse down in the video.


Think about it. A horse gives 20 years of his life in service to man and man says, "so sorry, there''s just no place for you anymore. This is modern society. Bye bye."


Who the HELLO have we become????


----------



## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> Washington Post: "Over three years, major ranching and hunting organizations, represented by [J.J.] Goicoechea [Nevada's State Veterinarian] and others, quietly negotiated with animal welfare groups, including the Humane Society of the United States. These strange bedfellows recently unveiled a wild horse proposal that they say meets both sides’ goals: It keeps mustangs alive, and it gets a lot more off the land."
> 
> Why quietly negotiated? Why do they consider them "strange bedfellows" Don't we all want to do right by these horses?!?


Because otherwise the "advocates" (IE: The Cloud Foundation, Skydog Sanctuary, American Wild Horse Campaign and countless others) would start screaming bloody murder, rile the public up and begin suing to stop any kind of progress or form of management. These people genuinely believe that there aren't _enough_ Mustangs, not that they're over-populated! They want the horses in holding set free, every cow and sheep removed from public land permanently, Mustangs on every single square foot of public land and no more round-ups or gathers! 

Some of them are even against fertility control! PZP is a "pesticide" now, gelding stallions "changes herd dynamics", spaying mares is "barbaric" and god forbid you adopt out the foals and yearlings because that's "tearing families apart!". 

And unfortunately, these people are for more Internet savvy then the BLM is- They had Facebook pages dedicated to their "cause" long before the BLM decided to start adopting horses over the Internet! So they're achieved a strong toe-hold and now have the public in their grasp. And since the public has next to no earthly idea about horses (Let alone The West or humane management), they have a lot of clout and political power. 


So yes, seeing just one "advocate" group working with the BLM is strange indeed. I have no problem seeing why they're tried to keep quiet about it, because now that the cat's out of the bag... the other advocacy groups are calling them "traitors" and "betrayers"! 


But people *do* want to do right by the horses, it's just that their not the ones with the most power in this situation sadly.




WildAbtHorses said:


> Are they saying it will cost $50 million a year to provide birth control to wild horses? and the round-ups will continue as they have for the last 50 years. So the only thing changing is providing more fertility control?


It's actually $50 million _on-top_ of the BLM's usual budget of $80 million, so $130 million in all. Definitely a decent chunk of change. But it wouldn't just be for birth control (There would be a ton more of that yes), it would be for rounding up ten's of thousands of horses for the next _decade_ or so, moving them and the horse's currently in holding out to "sustainable" pastures and carrying for them for the rest of their natural lifespan. None of that comes cheap. In fact, that's probably the most expensive route that they could've gone.




WildAbtHorses said:


> "Over four hours, two helicopters pushed 117 horses into the trap." THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY!!!


Actually, helicopter gathering _is_ the "better way". The truth is, these horses literally roam over areas of 100's if not thousands of square miles... you simply can't effectively round-up areas as huge as that without using helicopters. The helicopters themselves are flown by highly-trained pilots, the horses are actually _trotted_ the majority of the way to the trap and are only forced to "run" the few hundred feet (With the help of a Judas horse to lead the way). Even Temple Grandin has praised the helicopter method of gathering- https://www.grandin.com/references/handling.mustangs.html





WildAbtHorses said:


> I hope Laura Leigh, founder of Wild Horse Education, is being a bit melodramatic? But what if she isn't?
> “If this proposal gets passed by Congress in any form, the program will collapse. Wild horses will be in danger of slaughter and mass killing once more. Wild herds will be decimated in numbers, brutalized through surgical experimentation, and their habitat will be destroyed by profit driven interests with no protections. In addition our voice to fight back will be gutted.”


Yes, Laura Leigh is being melodramatic. As she always is. Despite her blog being called "Wild Horse Education", it doesn't actually have any educational value. She over-dramatizes gatherings, grossly anthropomorphizes the horses themselves, uses emotional language to deliberately get people upset and is one of those "advocates" that I mentioned earlier. You know, the ones who just want the Mustangs to run amuck with no management. 

Do not listen to her or anything that she says. 


Read this article instead-- http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/winter-11/wi11-range-mustang.pdf 

It goes back to 2011, but basically the situation is exactly the same. Some interesting history about Wild Horse Annie in there too.


----------



## 281187

Hondo said:


> I've expired my WPost allotment but getting the jist anyhow.
> Thinking that the majority over five years old have their minds pretty much made up with little chance of change, which leaves only option of compromise. Of course that will take a lot of hammering to hammer out.


You're far more optimistic than I am. Compromise seems to be a lost art nowadays. 




Hondo said:


> Going back to Temple Grandin, who I would really like to ask in person about her support of US slaughter. I'm also wondering how she feels about the current proposal to outlaw shipping across the border for slaughter as her main problem seemed to be lack of inspection in over the border houses.


I'd love to have a chat with her myself also! I deeply admire her and she's been one of my role models for the last decade or so. 




Hondo said:


> Anyhow, what I wanted to mention was that Grandin first encountered cattle squeeze chutes at high school age and was amazed that it seemed to calm the cattle. She then with the help of her shop teacher constructed one for herself that was operated by air pressure by the one in the chute. She found it calmed her immensely, and of course as many know this went on to be the hug machine and gained would wide popularity. I even read recently where a hug backpack had been developed.
> 
> 
> A head lock can be applied to a cow in a squeeze chute with out her hardly noticing it, a lock which holds the head fairly well, depending on the size of the cow.
> 
> 
> During the last five years I have assisted in moving hundreds of cattle through a squeeze chute and can personally attest to this. The ranch had around 400 head of brood cows alone that needed to be treated at least once per year.
> 
> 
> However, this does not work with horses. Not even the slaughter house Grandin designed had anything that remotely held a horse as does a cattle squeeze chute.
> 
> 
> And there is no head or neck restraint. Even a trained calm horse will not easily allow strange object to approach his head. This is why it is so difficult to kill a horse with the captive bolt gun. And that is after a horrific battle to the stunning position.
> 
> 
> If a horse were held in a cattle squeeze chute as cattle are, the horse will not calm but will continue to struggle until the horse can no longer struggle. But the slaughter house cannot wait that long. 13 shots to bring the one horse down in the video.


You _are_ aware that squeeze-chutes for horses exist, right? What do you think the BLM uses to freeze-brand the Mustangs? They certainly don't just walk up to them in a pen! The horses are driven thru a funneling system and then each horse individually enters the chute. By all accounts, it's quite secure (And padded even!) and allows easy access to virtually any part of the animal- Including yes, the neck. 

I see no reason why slaughter-plants who wish to process horses can't be modified to better handle them. The key to stunning horses correctly is to not do it immediately, wait for the horse to hold still and _then_ go up and stun it. Not as fast as cattle no, but we aren't exactly talking hours of waiting here. Not even five minutes! Probably thirty seconds to a minute, tops. (Which is actually considered pretty fast for *cattle* processing.)





Hondo said:


> Think about it. A horse gives 20 years of his life in service to man and man says, "so sorry, there''s just no place for you anymore. This is modern society. Bye bye."
> 
> 
> Who the HELLO have we become????


Life unfortunately isn't particularly pretty, it's actually quite ugly. While it's a nice fantasy to imagine every old horse grazing happily in Black Beauty's apple orchard for the rest of their days, that simply isn't possible for most people to provide. 

Old horses are still large, expensive animals and many people can't afford to take care of them for another five to ten years. Regardless of how long the horse has usefully served them previously. Humane slaughter should be a perfectly acceptable end for old horses.


----------



## Hondo

PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> You _are_ aware that squeeze-chutes for horses exist, right?



No, actually I am not, never seen one. I will search for pictures and design. Lots of holes in my knowledge.


I posted on one post that I would be hard put to support a law making it illegal for a person to euthanize their horse, or dog or cat for that matter.


If slaughter could be as humane as cattle for transport, and handling in the slaughter house, as humane as euthanizing, I would be hard put to oppose that also, although admittedly I would be hard put to support it also.


"Life isn't pretty" is not an acceptable reason to shrug and just accept that which is not pretty.


SilverMaple RE: "Where are you finding draft horses for $100?"


Five years ago when I first became associated with the ranch I stayed on for five years they had a herd of 23 horses. The decision was made to sell 7 as they really didn't need that many horses. When I asked which, Hondo was one of them. They were all to be sold for $75 and picked up at the ranch by the buyer. I requested to purchase Hondo. He was given to me as a gift with the caution that he was unsafe to ride above a walk. I learned later that the buyer was indeed a kill buyer that picked up horses from various ranches in the area.



Hondo was my first horse, remains my only horse, and will likely remain being my only horse.


Over the last five+ years Hondo has given me some of the best, if not the best, years of my so far 77 year life. I cannot imagine having left this earth without the experiences I've had with Hondo. I'm not being melodramatic. I absolutely mean what I'm saying.


Reminds me of the father of a friend of my youngest son who scoffed at people owning dogs and the money they spent on them.


Then his two sons convinced or connived or both for their mother to allow them to have this dog.


The dad bonded with that dog and his lap is where the dog spent most of his indoor time. The dad more than once exclaimed at how much of his life was missed by not having a dog. He just didn't know.


Someone said there is no place for horses in modern society. Well, if that's true, then there is no place for me either.


This thread is one of the most polite discussions of opposing and strongly felt opinions that I've seen anywhere on the net.


----------



## 281187

Hondo said:


> No, actually I am not, never seen one. I will search for pictures and design. Lots of holes in my knowledge.


Here's what the BLM uses: 



What an awesome design! The horse was so calm! I can definitely see that being adapted to use in a slaughterhouse.




Hondo said:


> If slaughter could be as humane as cattle for transport, and handling in the slaughter house, as humane as euthanizing, I would be hard put to oppose that also, although admittedly I would be hard put to support it also.


It can be and already is in _many_ countries. You are aware that much of Europe eats horse-meat, right? And Europe has some of the strictest Animal Welfare laws and regulations around, so if they can slaughter horses and be satisfied that it can be done in safe, humane manner, then theirs no reason not to assume that the US can do the same in the future. 

No reason at all. 




Hondo said:


> "Life isn't pretty" is not an acceptable reason to shrug and just accept that which is not pretty.


Sure it is, it's called being realistic. Not everyone can be an optimist, some of us have to be realists (And others can be fatalists, but I don't think that applies to this specific discussion).




Hondo said:


> Someone said there is no place for horses in modern society. Well, if that's true, then there is no place for me either.


Don't twist my words. If you're going to refer to something that I said, quote me. I never said that horses don't have a place in the modern world, I said that *Mustangs* don't have much of a place in the modern world. 

Which is true. The average person can tame or train a Mustang, so right out of the gate that's a huge roadblock with regards to more people adopting them. The horse world is also getting increasingly expensive and specialized. And the fact of the matter is that Mustangs aren't as fast as racehorses, as cowy as stock horses, aren't built to excel at dressage like Warmbloods do, don't gait like Tennessee Walkers do, etc.

They're Jack-Of-All-Trades, but Masters-Of-None.... which is a role that can and is amply filled by wholly domestic horses of numerous breeds. People don't need to put the effort and money into befriending and building a partnership of trust with a formerly feral animal when they can literally post a wanted ad in the town newspaper and get ten already friendly, used to being handled and even somewhat trained horses offered to them.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ thanks for joining the discussion -you have inspired me!

The wild horse sounds perfect for the young -I am very serious. The NEW Outward Bound for the American Teenager!

Every adolescent should be required to befriend a wild horse as a right-of-passage into adulthood and society.

The horses are smart, small, agile, rough, surefooted, confident, brave, and once befriended, they are calm, sweet, loving, and loyal. What a perfect match: Youth & Wild.

- - - This is what I was going to post prior to reading the new posts:

That Washington Post article makes me feel that the barbarians and the money launderers are planning on "fixing" the situation. It will take them ten years and will cost 500,000,000 on-top-of the existing BLM horse budget to stabilize the situation.

I have to continue with the belief that once the American people are aware and objectively educated on the situation that they will step-up-to-the-plate and do right by these Mustangs.


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## Hondo

PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> What an awesome design! The horse was so calm! I can definitely see that being adapted to use in a slaughterhouse.


 It appeared to work well for whatever they were doing with the particular horse that was in the chute. Don't know if they were freeze branding, darting, or what. Another unknown is how reactive the horse is or if a more calm horse was chosen for the video. My guess in the most reactive was not chosen. Sorry but I was not impressed at all with what I could see.



The actual construction was not discernible but to me it did not appear to be adequate for humane slaughter. The head and neck was easily moved around. Don't know if you have ever worked a cow in a chute, but they have a depression right in front of their brain that makes it easy to correctly place a stun gun. Not so with horses. After the X is drawn from ear to opposing eye, the horse's head is both convex and moving. Not so easy to correctly place a stun gun. I wonder if there is ever an X even drawn to aid in the correct placement of the gun?







PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> It can be and already is in _many_ countries. You are aware that much of Europe eats horse-meat, right? And Europe has some of the strictest Animal Welfare laws and regulations around, so if they can slaughter horses and be satisfied that it can be done in safe, humane manner, then theirs no reason not to assume that the US can do the same in the future. No reason at all.



Yes, I am aware that much of Europe eats horse meat in addition to many places elsewhere in the world. The social values and practices in Europe or other contries have no bearing what-so-ever on what values the US culture decides upon. None at all. If all the values from various places in the world were brought to the US, I would not want to live here. As it is, it's my #1 choice.


I have not observed any footage of slaughter in Europe but I shall search. I am very skeptical that it is done anywhere near as humanely as cattle have it. Are unsafe drugs for human consumption restricted from use on horses?





PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> Sure it is, it's called being realistic. Not everyone can be an optimist, some of us have to be realists (And others can be fatalists, but I don't think that applies to this specific discussion).



I respectfully and emphatically disagree. I've experienced too many occasions when important changes were scorned by asserting that someone was just not being "realistic". Just calling something unrealistic has no meaning or value at all. To have meaning, the nuts and bolts must be delineated. To be fair, the same could be argued for optimistic but somehow they seem to be a little different in application. The optimist just seems to have faith that the nuts and bolts will eventually become evident even if not clear at the time. 







PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> Don't twist my words. If you're going to refer to something that I said, quote me. I never said that horses don't have a place in the modern world, I said that *Mustangs* don't have much of a place in the modern world.



Are you getting over sensitive or what?? I'll say back to you, don't twist my words. I did NOT say you said anything. Otherwise I would have quoted you. I just remembered, or thought I remembered, that* someone* had said horses had no place in modern society. I just looked back and now see, as you say, that I was mistaken.




PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> With all of that in mind, the Mustang simply has little to no place in modern society.



If the Mustang has little to no place in _modern society, _then neither do I.





PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> They're Jack-Of-All-Trades, but Masters-Of-None.... which is a role that can and is amply filled by wholly domestic horses of numerous breeds. People don't need to put the effort and money into befriending and building a partnership of trust with a formerly feral animal when they can literally post a wanted ad in the town newspaper and get ten already friendly, used to being handled and even somewhat trained horses offered to them.



Too often, too very very often, the horses sold in the town newspaper are not the favorite horses. The ranch I was on would never ever sell the horses they deemed to be best. The ones sold all had behavioral problems, mostly related to bad handling.


Many first time buyers wind up with horses that have been doped to cover foot problems, limb problem, behavior problems or what ever.


Mustangs come with a clean sheet. And feet that have been properly developed through hard daily use from birth. Looking back, I see that I was extremely lucky to have the horse I do have. I could have easily put an add in the paper or bought one off Craig's only to have my horse experience to end in disappointment in six months or less.


If I ever get another horse, it will be an untrained Mustang. I used a trained one for packing salt. He had amazing feet. I didn't ride him but those who did said he was the smoothest horse they had ever ridden. (ungaited)


He could wear shoes paper thin without them ever loosening. I placed boots on him that would never stay on Hondo. Boots that didn't even properly fit. Never a problem with that previously feral horse. And people friendly. Yes very. Once he became convinced I wouldn't beat him up. I miss that horse.



As far as racing goes, my position is if one wants to race, I say use their own body, not someone else's. Go buy a motorcycle or car or race on foot.


To beat up a horse for thrill seeking experiences and then throw the horse into the weeds or under the bus is insanely inhuman.


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## Hondo

I had forgotten how many horses there are in the U.S. Didn't find anything current but in 2006 the estimate was 9.5 million.


50,000 mustangs are only a little over 1/2 percent of the total horse population. It just seems that something must be wrong for this small of population not being successfully absorbed by by the larger population.


Also noted was the idea that if a horse has an average lifespan of say 25 years, divided into 9.5 million means that 380,000 horses die each year if the population remains static. So from that one could speculate there are a combination of around 280,000 natural deaths and euthanasia each year.


Maybe if slaughter was banned both in the U.S. and shipping over the border, the BLM could reduce adoption restrictions to the point that the excess mustangs would be adopted. I have gained the perception, correct or incorrect, that some of the restrictions by the BLM are aimed at reducing the chances of slaughter.


This is one more idea that sways me toward no slaughter.


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## 281187

Hondo said:


> I had forgotten how many horses there are in the U.S. Didn't find anything current but in 2006 the estimate was 9.5 million.


A more recent estimate would be appreciated, 2006 was _thirteen_ years ago- A lot has changed in that time. If I was going to take a guess though, I say that number is no longer accurate and that the US horse population has gone down since then. That would fit with worldwide trends. 




Hondo said:


> 50,000 mustangs are only a little over 1/2 percent of the total horse population. It just seems that something must be wrong for this small of population not being successfully absorbed by by the larger population.


Well what do you know, maybe my "Theirs no room for a non-specialized animal like the Mustang in the modern world" theory holds water after all! 




Hondo said:


> Also noted was the idea that if a horse has an average lifespan of say 25 years, divided into 9.5 million means that 380,000 horses die each year if the population remains static. So from that one could speculate there are a combination of around 280,000 natural deaths and euthanasia each year.


Sounds like the Anti-Slaughter folks really _did_ pull the "900,000 horses are humanely euthanized in the US every year" statistic right out of their behinds' then. I knew it, Animal Rights Activists are always full of it. 




Hondo said:


> Maybe if slaughter was banned both in the U.S. and shipping over the border, the BLM could reduce adoption restrictions to the point that the excess mustangs would be adopted. I have gained the perception, correct or incorrect, that some of the restrictions by the BLM are aimed at reducing the chances of slaughter.


A federal ban on slaughter and shipping horses across the border for slaughter would be impossible to enforce. There would be *absolutely nothing* to stop kill buyers from merely lying about what the horses' intended use is and once they were across the border, theirs not a **** thing that the Government could do about it. 


Border Patrol Agent:"Hiya Bob, back again this week?" 

Kill Buyer: "Yep, got another load of horses to take down to Mexico, same as always." 

Border Patrol Agent: "Figured as much, trailer was a dead give-away." "Anyway you know the drill, what purpose are you bringing these horses across the border for?" 

Kill Buyer: "Breeding, just like last week." 

Border Patrol Agent: "Yeah I assumed, but the law requires me to ask regardless." "Any-who your paperwork is in order, so you're free to go." 

Kill Buyer: "Thanks Steve, see you again next week!" 

--Repeat endlessly until the end of time.--


I'd much rather that horses get a captive bolt to the head on American soil than a puntilla to the back down in Mexico.




Hondo said:


> This is one more idea that sways me toward no slaughter.


I don't think you need anymore swaying, you've made it rather clear that your mind is made up. 

Much like my own is. We'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Hondo

I'm wondering as I continue thinking on the OP's original topic that it is plausible that the fastest way to transfer the ownership and care of the Mustangs in holding pens to private owners is in fact to make it permanently illegal to slaughter horses in the USA or to ship them out for slaughter.


Here's my reasoning. The BLM has made clear statements, or so I've read, that they are absolutely not going to round up healthy horses to send to slaughter even though the original bill allows it, either slaughter or euthanasia, not sure which as I haven't read the bill.


And I don't know if that is the internal feeling of the BLM or if they have taken that position to appease the wild horse advocates. Doesn't matter really. That's their position.


If a horse is adopted, the adopter has to wait a full year before selling the horse. It is my understanding that this rule is in place to prevent the Mustangs from being adopted and sold for slaughter. In just one year there would be several times the price of a kill buyer spent on the horse.


If there were no avenue for the Mustangs to be slaughtered, I feel almost certain the BLM absolutely would reduce restrictions on adopting a Mustang.


I'm envisioning this scenario.


There is no way a horse that is raised domestically can have the feet, bone structure, sure footedness, and thinking mind of a horse raised under feral conditions. And just as mongrel dogs have a reputation for fewer health issues than the purebred, I suspect this is true of Mustangs also.


As more Mustangs go to private ownership because of the reduced restrictions, word gets around what great horses these are for the outback gnarly trail rider, and demand picks up outrunning supply. My five years riding has concentrated on narrow steep rocky trails with vertical drop offs that both rider and horse would have a fair chance of dying on if the horse were a Thoroughbred or many other breeds. If I were to get another horse, a Mustang would be a no-brainer for me.


So now all the Mustangs are spoken for before they are even rounded up! People are clamoring for more land for more Mustangs as there is no way to get a horse with all the qualities they desire unless it is raised feral.


All of a sudden the price goes up (supply and demand) and the BLM has more than enough money for roundups. The herd is stabilized at the densities they feel are correct (appropriate management level) and the 50 year problem is solved.


No more darting and no more sterilization. Heck no. We want as many as we can get and more!


And to boot, the birth rate in the private sector is drastically reduced as many a back yard breeder do not like the prospect of euthanizing an unwanted horse.


The problem of horses being still shipped illegally across the border will be easily controlled by stealth wild horse advocates happily furnishing the prosecuting attorneys more than they need for a quick conviction and a lengthy penitentiary sentence.


This may sound a little pollyannaish to some but I'm believing it a wholly plausible scenario.


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## 281187

Hondo said:


> If there were no avenue for the Mustangs to be slaughtered, I feel almost certain the BLM absolutely would reduce restrictions on adopting a Mustang.


What makes you so absolutely dead certain that the BLM would change it's adoption requirements (Which aren't even all that severe? Most of the requirements are just sound like common-sense when it comes to dealing with a large, feral animal) if Mustangs magically couldn't be slaughtered? Slaughter was effectively stopped in the US back in 2007, but adoption rates have only *gone down* since then. 




Hondo said:


> And just as mongrel dogs have a reputation for fewer health issues than the purebred, I suspect this is true of Mustangs also.


The whole "Mutts are healthier than purebred dogs!" thing is a myth that has been debunked numerous times. Here's just one example-- https://www.diamondpet.com/blog/culture/myths/are-mixed-breed-dogs-healthier-than-purebreds/ 

Not to mention, Mustangs are *not* totally free of health problems themselves. They're prone to metabolic disorders-- Lamintis, Insulin Resistance, Cushings, Obesity. And of course, theirs the small matter of the fact that the BLM has to put down _scores_ of them every year because of congenital structural disorders. And I'm not talking about foals either, I've read reports of horses of _all_ ages (From Yearlings to 20+!) being euthanized. So much for Mother Nature being the harshest breeder!




Hondo said:


> As more Mustangs go to private ownership because of the reduced restrictions, word gets around what great horses these are for the outback gnarly trail rider, and demand picks up outrunning supply. My five years riding has concentrated on narrow steep rocky trails with vertical drop offs that both rider and horse would have a fair chance of dying on if the horse were a Thoroughbred or many other breeds. If I were to get another horse, a Mustang would be a no-brainer for me.


I'm glad that you're Mustang worked out so well for you personally, but your personal situation doesn't apply to everyone. I for example intend for a bay, Lippitt Morgan, gelding to be my next horse. 

Regardless, most people _probably_ don't intend to do extreme trail riding. Plus you know, if one wants a guarantee on a surefooted mount, Mules and Donkeys have that market cornered. 




Hondo said:


> So now all the Mustangs are spoken for before they are even rounded up!


 Point blank-- That _will not happen_. It's _never_ happened in the entire history of the Mustang. Even back when they were of use to society (IE: When America was a growing nation continuously in need of work-horses), there were _still_ too many of them running around! No one could catch all of them and of the animals who did get caught, the majority got shipped off to be made into chicken feed because they weren't considered to be of a high enough quality to make decent riding horses.




Hondo said:


> People are clamoring for more land for more Mustangs as there is no way to get a horse with all the qualities they desire unless it is raised feral.


That also will not happen. The BLM can't just cheerfully declare all public land is now open to being "settled" by Mustangs, they are required _by law_ to only manage Mustangs "Where they were found in 1971" not historically. It would literally take an act of congress to change the law to allow more land for Mustangs. 




Hondo said:


> All of a sudden the price goes up (supply and demand) and the BLM has more than enough money for roundups. The herd is stabilized at the densities they feel are correct (appropriate management level) and the 50 year problem is solved.


Nope, the wild horse "advocates" will keep on screaming about the gathers and sue to stop them because many believe that a "life of servitude to man" is a fate worse then death for Mustangs! They want the animals to be "managed" like deer, just with no hunting season. So not managed at all. 




Hondo said:


> And to boot, the birth rate in the private sector is drastically reduced as many a back yard breeder do not like the prospect of euthanizing an unwanted horse.


Lol, no that won't happen either. People are going to continue to breed their horses irresponsibly if they want to. Mustangs suddenly being "in vogue" won't change the fact that they just _have_ to let Sparkles have just one baby because she's the most amazing mare ever.




Hondo said:


> The problem of horses being still shipped illegally across the border will be easily controlled by stealth wild horse advocates happily furnishing the prosecuting attorneys more than they need for a quick conviction and a lengthy penitentiary sentence.


And then the kill buyers will just as cheerfully counter-sue the advocates for stalking and harassment, say hello to more Ag-Gag laws! (Which would make it harder for legit inspectors and supervisors for animal welfare to do their jobs). 




Hondo said:


> This may sound a little pollyannaish to some but I'm believing it a wholly plausible scenario.


Like I said before, you're way more optimist than I am.


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## Hondo

@*PahsimeroiFuzzy* Thank you for the alternate perspectives. :smile:


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## WildAbtHorses

Great to see the conversation turned from a bit conformational to conversational. The topic of wild horses in the western states, as we know, is highly controversial, and this is why the United States has been in a 'stalemate' for so many years.

Our focus must be on the Mustangs and how best to serve (not necessarily for dinner) the ones we have right now under our care and supervision. 

How old is the oldest Mustang in the holding pens or long-term pastures?

We need to address this issue with good old American common sense. Save the ones we can and humanely ourselves process the rest.

I do think the more we engage and educate the public, the more Mustangs we will be able to help live long, healthy, and contented lives.

"To know a Mustang is to love all Mustangs!" or "Fall in love with one Mustang, you'll fall in love with all Mustangs."


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## WildAbtHorses

*Don't Stop Believin'*

Dreams into Reality require Action Steps. Write it down, and it will happen.

YES, be optimist, be pollyannaish, believe in your dreams, make them plausible scenarios, formulate action steps, and take action!

These wild horses and burros are counting on us to do right by them --soon. ASAP.

Our theme song should be:

"Don't Stop Believin'" is a song by American rock band Journey, originally released as the second single from their seventh album Escape (1981).

The title of the song came from something keyboardist Jonathan Cain's father frequently told him when he was a struggling musician living on Los Angeles' Sunset Boulevard ready to give up because he was not having success in the music industry. Each time he would call home in despair, his father would tell him, "Don't stop believing.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Stop_Believin'


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## WildAbtHorses

If you look at the overall numbers for the United States, the number of wild horses sound like just a drop-in-the-bucket and something we should be able to manage.

329,064,917 United States 2019 human population
....3,090,000 Nevada 2019 human population
........40,394 wild horses in Nevada 2019
.......110,567 Nevada Square Miles
.............600+ High Schools in Nevada
...............20+ Colleges and Universities in Nevada
.......160,000 Enrolled in Nevada’s Colleges and Universities

As of 2018:
.........43,886 BLM Horses in captivity
...........1,434 BLM Burros in captivity
...........8,8227 in BLM short-term holding pens
.........35,850 in BLM long-term holding pens

As of 2018 AHC reports horses by state:
.......978,822 Texas
.......698,345 California
.......500,124 Florida
.......326,134 Oklahoma
.......320,173 Kentucky
.......306,898 Ohio
.......281,255 Missouri

....6,500,000 4-H members in the United States ages 5-21
...............11 Outward Bound Schools in the United States
........35,000 Attend Outward Bound Schools annually in the United States
..........7,000 Overnight camps in the United States
..........5,000 Day camps in the United States
..11,000,000 Adults and children attend Camp in United Staes each year

This next statistic just confirms what you’ve been chatting about. It is heartbreaking. 
Sep 3, 2019 - The Thoroughbred-racing industry sends an estimated 10,000 horses to slaughter annually, meaning that half of the 20,000 new foals born each year will eventually be killed for their flesh.
https://www.peta.org/issues/animals...-industry-cruelty/overbreeding-and-slaughter/


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## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> This next statistic just confirms what you’ve been chatting about. It is heartbreaking.
> 
> Sep 3, 2019 - The Thoroughbred-racing industry sends an estimated 10,000 horses to slaughter annually, meaning that half of the 20,000 new foals born each year will eventually be killed for their flesh.
> https://www.peta.org/issues/animals...-industry-cruelty/overbreeding-and-slaughter/



Whoa whoa _whoa_, why on earth are you using *PETA* as a source? 

They've been linked to domestic terrorist groups, kill virtually _all_ of the animals that they take into their one "shelter", have been charged with _stealing peoples' pets and euthanizing them_, spread misinformation and have admitted that they're actual "mission" is to cause all domesticated animals to cease to exist. 

They are *not* a trustworthy nor valid source.


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## Hondo

People who would like to see all feral equine removed from Federal land + people who would like to see all private bovine stock removed from all Federal land = stalemate, gridlock, and exaggerated claims from both parties.


The principle of negotiation most frequently followed seems to be, ask for twice as much as you really want and settle for half as much as you ask.


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## Hondo

Quote: More than 10,000 U.S. Thoroughbreds a year ship to slaughterhouses in Canada and Mexico,..................
.......................................

Even so, some of the biggest money earners get slaughtered, right alongside the losers. Kentucky Derby winner and Horse of the Year Ferdinand was slaughtered in 2002, in Japan. His lifetime earnings of $3.7 million made him, at one time, the fifth-leading money earner of the Thoroughbred world, with a stud fee set at $30,000.00 upon his retirement from racing. But he stopped producing foals and was sent to slaughter by his owners at age nineteen.


With lifetime earnings of $1.6 million, Exceller was, and still is, the only horse to have defeated two Triple Crown winners, Affirmed and Seattle Slew. But he was ordered slaughtered in 1997 by his owner, Göte Östlund. Two years after his death, Exceller was elected to the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in Saratoga Springs, NY. End Quote


https://www.forbes.com/sites/vicker...about-slaughtered-thoroughbreds/#41e504cd1bd6


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## Hondo

Big winner nearly dies on the way to slaughter


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## 281187

If a horse fulfills the purpose for which it was bred for (IE: Winning large sums of money at the racetrack for its owner), then I see nothing wrong with it being slaughtered afterwards. 

Bulls are slaughtered when they can no longer get cows pregnant, chickens are slaughtered when they stop producing eggs, dairy goats are slaughtered when they can't make milk anymore, sheep are slaughtered when they don't produce lambs, etc and so forth. So I genuinely don't see why horses should be different in this regard. 

Horses are livestock and when livestock is no longer economical for an owner to keep, then it's time for them to get sent down the road and perform their final function-- Becoming meat to eat.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...There is no way a horse that is raised domestically can have the feet, bone structure, sure footedness, and thinking mind of a horse raised under feral conditions...word gets around what great horses these are for the outback gnarly trail rider, and demand picks up outrunning supply. My five years riding has concentrated on narrow steep rocky trails with vertical drop offs that both rider and horse would have a fair chance of dying on if the horse were a Thoroughbred or many other breeds. If I were to get another horse, a Mustang would be a no-brainer for me.
> 
> 
> So now all the Mustangs are spoken for before they are even rounded up!...









Cowboy has good feet. He is also short (13.0 hands), has no withers, heavy boned, very shortbacked, thick necked with a big head. He's a saddle-fitter's nightmare and waddles at a walk and has a trot that makes you think you are going to pee blood. He is level-headed in the desert and has a very smooth canter.

Bandit is 50% Arabian. He's 15 hands. Needs boots for his front feet but has a longer back, good withers, less neck, a lot more speed, and is as good or BETTER at crossing the Sonoran Desert off-trail. After training by someone who let him think, Bandit is as level-headed as Cowboy...or more.








Trooper is 1/4 Appy & 3/4 Arabian. Same size as Bandit. He hasn't been ridden solo in the desert for years - not his fault. His rider rarely ask much from him and his lack of active riders shows...but he's a horse who can be in a corral for months and then be perfectly safe for my rarely riding wife to ride:








I like Cowboy. He's a good horse for a smaller rider. His behavior problems in an arena were caused by man. Nothing to do with him being a mustang. He's an excellent trail horse. But Bandit may be his better in the desert now. Bandit and Trooper are both more enjoyable to ride - speaking physically: smoother gaits, easier saddle fit, etc.

If I ever buy another horse - very unlikely - it will almost certainly be an Arabian mare. I like mustangs and would consider a part-mustang. MAYBE a full mustang, if the conformation was good for riding. But I fully understand why many would want their Arabians (me!) or Quarter Horses or Tennessee Walkers. A solid trial horse is PART breeding...but a lot has to do with how the horse is TAUGHT. If you expose the horse to gradually increasing challenges and encourage him to think, you will get a thinking, capable horse. The pity is too many horses are never allowed to think.

Nature selects for qualities that have nothing to do with being ridden by humans. And you cannot train a horse to have good conformation for riding.


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## Knave

Occasionally I reopen this post, although I realize I have the wrong mindset for it. I think it logical however to be arguing about slaughter.

It’s when it crosses over into personal ownership of the mustangs that I can feel like we bridge the logical component. Yes, by choice, ownership of mustangs is a great thing. I like Cash, and I’ve known lots of people who rode mustangs and liked them. However, my horse ownership relates to work. I also enjoy it and would own horses in any case, but there is a practical side.

Every horse owner has the right to decide what type of horse they want to own. It is an intense relationship that is long term. Just like choosing your husband, the choice is extremely relevant. Most horse ownership is not for work related reasons. It is for joy. A partner to ride on the trails or to compete.

Mustangs do in fact work great for trail riding partners, but excepting the types of competitions regarding starting them, there is not much avenue to show. 

Training a horse takes a lot more than this thread likes to imagine. Yes, my kids can start a horse. They have been raised in an environment which naturally teaches them to read animals. They still require intense management and training to start a horse.

Riding young horses and starting them is not just something people magically can do. It is dangerous. It is a mental game. Saying 4h or college kids can just start these horses is taking away the reality of the thread. Horses are not really gentled in a matter or minutes, and mistakes create huge and ongoing problems.

If your goal is in creating more personal ownership, maybe beginning a show circuit which is continuous, mimicking current breed association circuits, and with enough prize money for drawing interest, would help to begin an interest. Creating more laws is not going to solve the problem in my opinion, and forcing the horses upon people is not realistic.


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## boots

Hondo said:


> People who would like to see all feral equine removed from Federal land + people who would like to see all private bovine stock removed from all Federal land = stalemate, gridlock, and exaggerated claims from both parties.
> 
> 
> The principle of negotiation most frequently followed seems to be, ask for twice as much as you really want and settle for half as much as you ask.


Who on the cattleman's side, or what organization, wants all the feral horses gone? 

If they do, they are pretty bad at it. Considering feral horses graze on private ground and drink from springs and tanks that ranchers maintain and improve. And we really like to see them. At least when they are healthy.

Several of my friends have been fined for leaving water "on" after they've pulled their cattle in dry years. Left it because there were small bands still in the area.

Back when I still leased government ground, I got a warning for the same. The agent kindly warned me that not only could I have been fined, but the crazy mustang people sue ranchers they see as interfering with nature had they found my tanks with water. 

I had to remove my tanks for two reasons. First, soft- hearted hunters would sometimes get the water back on, and that would be my fault. And secondly, because some of the wild horse advocates would steal or destroy tanks and pumps, if they found them, as interfering with nature.


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## boots

There aren't just two sides/parties with interest in the issue.

There are some who want to rewild the western states. That won't go well for the horses, but that group doesn't care.

Some want all public land to be a horse sanctuary. That won't work well for the horses. Horses tend to degrade forage and natural watering places.

Some want horses kept away from all natural water because they degrade the riparian areas for native reptiles and fowl. That's hard to do, though some leasees are required to fence in riparian areas deemed "sensitive" and haul water for stock, which benefits the horses and other wildlife.

And I won't even address the recreationists. They have a wide variety of wants, too. 

In just those groups there are sub-groups who disagree on the goals 

Who gets their way? Who is the most right?

I pity anyone working for the BLM, Forest Service, etc.


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## Hondo

The livestock idea has some complications. And it's the source of some mighty strong opinions and disagreements.



I doubt anybody or very few at best consider dogs a livestock. But with the lives, careers, and deaths of Greyhounds, the distinction between horse racing livestock and dog racing dogs begins to cloud.


I was raised with livestock and draft horses. The horses and livestock were looked at as separate categories. Yes, many old draft horses were sent to the glue factory, but not to my knowledge butchered for human consumption, at least not in the area where I was raised.


And I continue to look at horses and livestock as separate categories, regardless of what I believe to be uninformed individuals in D.C. think.


If horses were farmed for meat supply or milk supply they would meet, in my mind, the criteria for livestock.


But how much would the meat from a grown horse sell for? Not enough to pay the bill for raising them for certain.


The horses that are slaughtered do not come from a class of animals that should be considered livestock. 



Horses are not dogs, with that I agree. But they are also not cows.


The biggest reason horses are slaughtered is that they can be purchased for 10 cents per pound on the hoof after their usefulness has eroded. Around 1/10th of what beef would sell for. If they were priced at the price of a steer, nobody would buy them-for slaughter.


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## 281187

Hondo said:


> The livestock idea has some complications. And it's the source of some mighty strong opinions and disagreements.


That's putting it mildly to say the least.





Hondo said:


> I doubt anybody or very few at best consider dogs a livestock. But with the lives, careers, and deaths of Greyhounds, the distinction between horse racing livestock and dog racing dogs begins to cloud.


Not true at all-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat 

*Many* countries consider dogs to be livestock and not just the "usual" suspects either! It increasingly looks like the US is the odd one out with this reverence for Dogs, Cats and Horses. 




Hondo said:


> I was raised with livestock and draft horses. The horses and livestock were looked at as separate categories. Yes, many old draft horses were sent to the glue factory, but not to my knowledge butchered for human consumption, at least not in the area where I was raised.


Surely you don't believe that the glue factory just left the rest of those horses' bodies do to waste, do you? Glue is made from animal bones and hooves, that leaves a hella lot of meat as a "by-product"! Most likely the meat was sold to be made into animal feed, although I wouldn't rule out human consumption (As it is widely known that horse can be cheaper to buy than beef and the former was often substituted for the latter during times of rationing and economic depression.... Even in the US).




Hondo said:


> And I continue to look at horses and livestock as separate categories, regardless of what I believe to be uninformed individuals in D.C. think.


But your opinion isn't the only one that matters. You believe that horses shouldn't be slaughtered, fine whatever, that's your right. That doesn't personally bother me, what _does_ bother me is that you're also for taking away the right for _other_ people to decide if they wish to pursue that route for their horses! 

Think of animal welfare as a "toolbox" and slaughter as just one of the "tools" inside of it. A good toolbox has numerous tools of all shapes and sizes inside it, so it's a *really bad idea* to just threw one or more of the tools out just because you personally don't like using that specific them.




Hondo said:


> If horses were farmed for meat supply or milk supply they would meet, in my mind, the criteria for livestock.


They are. Here's one example of a breed bred for meat-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Heavy_Draft 

And here's an example of a breed bred for milk-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novokirghiz 




Hondo said:


> But how much would the meat from a grown horse sell for? Not enough to pay the bill for raising them for certain.


Why are you _so_ convinced that horses can't be raised for meat economically? With minimal care, youthful slaughter and specialty products horses can be raised in large quantities for meat without breaking the bank.




Hondo said:


> The horses that are slaughtered do not come from a class of animals that should be considered livestock.


Yes they do, horses are livestock. That is not up for debate. They were originally domesticated for meat and they are legally defined as livestock in virtually every country (Including the US might I add!).




Hondo said:


> Horses are not dogs, with that I agree. But they are also not cows.


There's little physical difference between a horse and a cow, your misgivings about eating horse as opposed to beef are purely cultural. 




Hondo said:


> The biggest reason horses are slaughtered is that they can be purchased for 10 cents per pound on the hoof after their usefulness has eroded. Around 1/10th of what beef would sell for. If they were priced at the price of a steer, nobody would buy them-for slaughter.


Uh no? Where the hell are you getting the "10 cents per pound" figure from? I've seen it go anywhere from 0.50 to 1.25 per pound myself.


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## Hondo

@PahsimeroiFuzzy Thanks again for posting your detailed dismemberment...er...alternate views. :smile:


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## Hondo

PahsimeroiFuzzy said:


> You believe that horses shouldn't be slaughtered, fine whatever, that's your right. That doesn't personally bother me, what _does_ bother me is that you're also for taking away the right for _other_ people to decide if they wish to pursue that route for their horses!



I'll choose to respond to this.


If you've read my posts, which I'm sure you have, you must know that I have been very straightforward about being hard pressed to support a law that forbade a person from euthanizing their horse.......for any reason.


I've also been very straightforward about being hard pressed to forbade a form of slaughter that was as humane as euthanasia.


My position has been, is, and will continue to be, the slaughter of horses including the transport for slaughter as is now practiced is clearly inhumane and inhuman. That I do oppose and support laws against those forms of transport and slaughter of horses for me and _other_ people.


For those on the forum that are not experienced in the fear reaction of bovines as compared to equines, allow me to share some of the things I learned first hand on the ranch where I lived for five years.


I'm feeling a little long winded so some (or all) may wish to move on to another thread.


The first reaction of cattle to perceived danger is normally to "circle the wagons" or bunch up in a tight group.


Gathers on the ranches in the area are on very steep and rocky terrain covered with cat's claw and other plants determined to see to it that you go around them. Roundups using cowboys take quite a few cowboys for extended time periods as a result.


As the availability of cowboys continued to decline, Catahoula dogs began to be used on the gathers. These dogs came from Louisiana or nearby and were bred for hunting, and killing, wild hogs. These dogs can be very lovable to their owners but are fierce enough to bring down a full grown cow and kill it. Consequentially, these dogs must be well trained to be used on gathers.


The dogs have zero herding instincts. They absolutely do not herd. The two basic commands used on the gathers is "Attack" and "Stop Attacking".


When the dogs start attacking cattle the cattle move into small tight groups. The dogs are called off. If a cow starts to drift out of the group, the dogs are allowed to attack again. The cows soon learn if they stay together, the dogs will not attack them. Yep, the old pressure release.


One or two riders will "sit" on the cows until they start to relax as evidenced by a few starting to graze. Then gentle pressure will placed on the cows to start them moving in the direction desired. Much care is taken to keep them from running as they could be lost in the difficult terrain. If they do, the dogs are turned loose and the above is repeated.


Finally a lead cow will start to the corral she is familiar with and expectant to have a salt block available along with a little alfalfa. The herd singles out following the lead cow and the cowboy or cowboys, or cowgirls, follow along watching for any cow that is even thinking about heading for left or right "wing" and head them off before it happens as others could follow requiring the dogs bunching them up again and another long wait while the settled down.


The second defense of the bovine if bunching up doesn't' word is to stampede. The handlers don't want this to happen and take care to back off if the cows start appearing nervous from being pushed too hard.


NOW THE HORSES


I kept Hondo mostly in a 60 acre field as I would ride much more frequently than the roundup/gathers occurred. And I always kept a horse or two with him for company.


I had not been to the ranch house for a while nor had I spoken on the phone for a while. I later learned that there had been a cat (mountain lion) lurking around the corrals where the horses came in daily for extra feed and were very much on edge.


Dragon and Dolly (brother and sister) had been staying with Hondo. I decided to take them back to the herd and bring Rimmey back with Hondo. Rimmey was the horse I used for packing salt and he and Hondo were buds where Hondo detested the younger unruly teenager Dragon. (5YO)


I saddled up Hondo and brought along a halter for Rimmey with plans to head for the area where I suspected the herd of 18 or so would be located. I opened the gate and just allowed Dragon and Dolly to follow as I knew they would.


As I approached the area across the river where the herd in fact was, Dragon and Dolly decided to stop and pay the ranch house a visit. Who knows, might be some uneaten pellets in somebody's pen.


I found Rimmey, dismounted with Hondo ground tied and grazing. I had a length of baler twine hidden inside my shirt with treats for Rimmey. He was easy for me to catch until he had been away with the herd for a few months.


After getting the baler twine around Rimmey's neck, Dragon and Dolly came galloping into the herd exclaiming, "Here ya'll are!"


Well, apparently the herd didn't hear or understand. They concluded that the cat was after Dolly and Dragon and the cat might decide to get them instead.


Everybody including Hondo took off for a large open field and began running and bucking in circles. Rimmey made a valiant effort to stay with me but finally decided if I wanted to die I'd have to do it alone and I did not even attempt to hold him with the baler twine.


It was crazy!! They were making a huge circle just bucking, kicking, and running. My thoughts are they were trying to make themselves into a more difficult target than their buddies. (tennis shoe syndrome)


I saw Hondo's saddle pad extending out the back of his saddle. Soon it was gone and the saddle was under his belly while he continued bucking and running. Happily, some weak leather on the saddle broke and he was free from the saddle.


Across the river at the ranch house the dust cloud was so large and high that someone came to see what was going on. That's when I learned about the cat in the area.


All finally ended well. Patched Hondo's saddle with some baler twine, haltered Rimmey and completed my journey.


This story is about the FIRST RESPONSE OF HORSES TO PERCEIVED DANGER AS OPPOSED TO BOVINE'S.


And this is why the current handling methods for slaughter are not humane for horses and why I oppose their use for horses by, yes, you the reader and anyone else.


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## WildAbtHorses

IMO

Our primary focus is the management and care of the 136,000 wild horses and burros both on-range and off-range under the United States Government BLM's supervision. And to provide the BLM's Wild Horses & Burros Advisors' on October 30-31 with short-term and long-term solutions.

We have to accept the fact that processing horse meat in the United States will take a great deal of time, education, dedication, and commitment. It will be a significant endeavor to convince the American people and our Government it is the most humane alternative and it is in the best interest of excess horses' in the United States. And it will take a great deal of effort to formulate rules, regulations, and inspections that satisfy all parties. An unbelievably daunting task.

May our horses forgive us for our actions and so much inaction.


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## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> IMO
> 
> Our primary focus is the management and care of the 136,000 wild horses and burros both on-range and off-range under the United States Government BLM's supervision. And to provide the BLM's Wild Horses & Burros Advisors' on October 30-31 with short-term and long-term solutions.
> 
> We have to accept the fact that processing horse meat in the United States will take a great deal of time, education, dedication, and commitment. It will be a significant endeavor to convince the American people and our Government it is the most humane alternative and it is in the best interest of excess horses' in the United States. And it will take a great deal of effort to formulate rules, regulations, and inspections that satisfy all parties. An unbelievably daunting task.
> 
> May our horses forgive us for our actions and so much inaction.



:iagree: Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Hondo

For those following this thread who wish to support legislation against horse slaughter in the US and shipping to other countries for slaughter, please support H.R. 961 2019, 116th Congress, if you believe this is best for horses and the US citizens.

Here is a link for convenient support although more than filling and sending a form needs to be done. The bill is introduced each year and has been continually gaining support. 

Also below is the text wording of H.R. 961.


https://secure.aspca.org/action/safe-act-2019 



https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/961

The 116th *Congress* convened on January 3, 2019, and will conclude on January 3, 2021


.https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BILLS-116hr961ih/pdf/BILLS-116hr961ih.pdf


I 116THCONGRESS 1STSESSIONH. R. 961 To prevent human health threats posed by the consumption of equines raised in the United States. IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES FEBRUARY4, 2019 Ms. SCHAKOWSKY(for herself and Mr. BUCHANAN) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Energy and Commerce, and in addition to the Committee on Agriculture, for a period to be subse-quently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned A BILL To prevent human health threats posed by the consumption of equines raised in the United States. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representa-1tives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, 2SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE. 3This Act may be cited as the ‘‘Safeguard American 4Food Exports Act of 2019’’. 5SEC. 2. FINDINGS. 6Congress finds that— 7(1) unlike cows, pigs, and other domesticated 8species, horses and other members of the equidae 9VerDate Sep 11 2014 04:22 Feb 13, 2019 Jkt 089200 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H961.IH H961kjohnson on DSK79L0C42 with BILLS2 •HR 961 IHfamily are not raised for the purpose of human con-1sumption; 2(2) equines raised in the United States are fre-3quently treated with substances that are not ap-4proved for use in horses intended for human con-5sumption and equine parts are therefore unsafe 6within the meaning of section 409 of the Federal 7Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act; 8(3) equines raised in the United States are fre-9quently treated with drugs, including phenylbuta-10zone, acepromazine, boldenone undecylenate, omep-11razole, ketoprofen, xylazine, hyaluronic acid, nitrofu-12razone, polysulfated glycosaminoglycan, clenbuterol, 13tolazoline, and ponazuril, which are not approved for 14use in horses intended for human consumption and 15equine parts are therefore unsafe within the mean-16ing of section 512 of the Federal Food, Drug, and 17Cosmetic Act; and 18(4) consuming parts of an equine raised in the 19United States likely poses a serious threat to human 20health and the public should be protected from these 21unsafe products. 22VerDate Sep 11 2014 04:22 Feb 13, 2019 Jkt 089200 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 E:\BILLS\H961.IH H961kjohnson on DSK79L0C42 with BILLS3 •HR 961 IHSEC. 3. PROHIBITIONS. 1Section 301 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic 2Act (21 U.S.C. 331) is amended by adding at the end the 3following: 4‘‘(fff) Notwithstanding any other provision of this 5section— 6‘‘(1) equine parts shall be deemed unsafe under 7section 409 of this Act; 8‘‘(2) equine parts shall be deemed unsafe under 9section 512 of this Act; and 10‘‘(3) the knowing sale or transport of equines or 11equine parts in interstate or foreign commerce for 12purposes of human consumption is hereby prohib-13ited.’’. 14Æ VerDate Sep 11 2014 04:22 Feb 13, 2019 Jkt 089200 PO 00000 Frm 00003 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6301 E:\BILLS\H961.IH H961kjohnson on DSK79L0C42 with BILLS


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## 281187

Hondo said:


> The bill is introduced each year and has been continually gaining support.


Yeah, by people who aren't actively involved with horses and thus have no practical experience with handling them, meeting their needs, caring for them, etc and so forth. 

It also hasn't escaped my notice that this bill _does not_ put forth any actual solutions (Practical or otherwise) as to what should be done with America's unwanted horses (And Donkeys and Mules too, since this bill will effect them also) nor does it provide funding that could towards caring for, re-homing or disposing of those animals. 

This bill therefore comes across as horrifyingly shortsighted. If it goes thru and becomes law, it means that _the public_ is going to have to pick up the care/disposal tally and do the day-to-day work of caring for, re-homing and disposing of unwanted equines. 

....And virtually every rescue, sanctuary and animal shelter is *already* filled to capacity and starved for donations. 


I reckon that if this becomes law we'll all be complaining in ten years time about how the horse market is _even worse_ off and bemoaning how the horses themselves have suffered for it.


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## Hondo

The bill does not advocate against euthanization. That is the method that has been used successfully for cats and dogs for many years.


And the owners could be required to pay for the euthanization. No need to burden the tax payers.


I continue to be convinced there is a humane solution to the problems associated with wild horses and refuse to become fatalistic about the current situation.


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## 281187

Hondo said:


> The bill does not advocate against euthanization. That is the method that has been used successfully for cats and dogs for many years.


But yet it provides no framework nor any funding for going about euthanizing potentially _100's of thousands_ of large, unwanted animals *per year*. 

And what of the bodies? Most localities no longer allow you to bury animals that have been killed by lethal injection, rendering plants have been going out of business left and right for years and cremation is horrendously expensive (Not to mention, ineffective when it comes to large animals). 




Hondo said:


> And the owners could be required to pay for the euthanization. No need to burden the tax payers.


What if the owners can't afford it? Euthanasia can be quite expensive. 

And what about abandoned animals? Who will pay for them to be euthanized?




Hondo said:


> I continue to be convinced there is a humane solution to the problems associated with wild horses and refuse to become fatalistic about the current situation.


Fancy that, I feel exactly the same way! We just have _very_ different ideas about how to go about it. 

-----

I still say bring horse slaughter back to America! Open at least one plant in every state! Have Temple Grandin design safe, humane corral systems and non-slip, squeeze-chutes that can appropriately restrain horses for stunning! She did it for cattle, she can do it for horses too!


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## WildAbtHorses

Hondo I do believe we all agree with you that no U.S. horse should EVER have to endure being, loaded into a transport vehicle and driven across our borders to Mexico or Canada to be, inhumanely slaughtered.

I believe where are opinions differ are on how unwanted horses should be "disposed" of. Euthanization leaves a large useless dead animal. Remember, people can be cheap and can be very inhumane. Is it cheaper to abandon than do right by the animal?

I believe everyone wishes that every horse in the U.S. and Global be placed in a loving and caring home for their natural life. That every horse never suffers from starvation, thirst, lack of companionship or space to eat, sleep, and run.

We Americans must agree that we will provide proper healthcare and homes for all unwanted horses in the United States. Or we must accept that unwanted and uncared for horses must be allowed to go peacefully and humanely into the meat pipeline (under U.S. strict rules, regulations, and inspections).

If no, what are you proposing? Euthanization, and then what? Extra cost to burry or burn? Or can you handle receiving an additional 100,000 horses each year at your place?

I genuinely believe we are all on the same side -we all want happy & healthy horses. We cannot turn our back on so many horses in need of us doing right by them.


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## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> Is it cheaper to abandon than do right by the animal?


It always is, every time. :frown_color: 




WildAbtHorses said:


> I genuinely believe we are all on the same side -we all want happy & healthy horses. We cannot turn our back on so many horses in need of us doing right by them.


I know that's _exactly_ what I want. Which is why I feel that we need to look the inherent ugliness of the situation dead in the eye, not shy away because of personal beliefs.


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## Hondo

Temple Grandin apparently tried and failed miserably at designing a humane method of handling horses for slaughter. If she can't do it, it likely that no one can, in my very biased opinion. But my experience tells me it clearly is not possible.


That leaves the only humane option to be euthanization. The meat is not fit for human consumption anyhow and euthanization does not prevent the meat from being either rendered or going to zoos for predator feed.


Checking Tucson, AZ landfill reg's. $75/ton for dead animal disposal. https://www.tucsonaz.gov/es/landfil... to wish to be true. At least that's my read.


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## 281187

Hondo said:


> Temple Grandin apparently tried and failed miserably at designing a humane method of handling horses for slaughter. If she can't do it, it likely that no one can, in my very biased opinion. But my experience tells me it clearly is not possible.


You got a citation for that? 



Hondo said:


> That leaves the only humane option to be euthanization. The meat is not fit for human consumption anyhow and euthanization does not prevent the meat from being either rendered or going to zoos for predator feed.


Oh? Let me tell you a little secret: Theirs a reason so many drugs for animals are "unapproved" or "off-label" for use in certain kinds of animals. You wanna know what that reason is? *Funding.* The US has it set-up so that the drug companies have to fund trials asserting a drugs' safety themselves. 

And guess what? If a drug company decides that they don't want to pursue a certain kind of use for their drug, then they won't fund a trial for it for that specific use. Which means if the drug is approved later on and goes to market, then it can't legally be used for any other purpose then the one/s it was trialed for. 

Which is why some vaccines are perfectly acceptable to give to some species of animals and not others, why some topical ointments may only be used on specific kinds of wounds despite many pet owners reporting that it works fine on others and why some drugs used for food animals are perfectly legal in one country but not another and etc and so forth. 

And that's not even acknowledging the fact that nearly every drug does have a withdrawal time (Usually anywhere from a few days to six months). After which the animal can be processed for meat or milked or whatever with no ill-effects on the populace that later consumes those products.




Hondo said:


> Checking Tucson, AZ landfill reg's. $75/ton for dead animal disposal. https://www.tucsonaz.gov/es/landfill-operations


That is one single location, in a (relatively speaking) sparsely populated state with a great deal of desert land. Other landfills on other states likely charge more, I reckon much more for states located directly on the east and west coasts. 

Not to mention, not every landfill accepts animal carcasses


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## COWCHICK77

Again, I haven't read all the posts I have missed in the last week or two. I just skimmed this last page.


Hondo, I usually agree with you so please don't take this as me picking on you.


Having been on many wild cow and horse catching adventures, I completely disagree with your assessment of cow instinct. The example you gave is classic of trained cattle. Wild cattle scatter like a covey of quail. They do not bunch up.
Cattle are trained much like horses whether people realize it or not. And I also find the thinner skinned southern breeds and weanlings are much more like horses than the slower, dumber english bred cattle.


I do believe horses could be euthanized in a slaughter house effectively. However, it has been my experience from the days of hauling butcher cows to the kill plant with my husband, many employees are not familiar with working cattle- the facilities make up for the lack of stockmanship to get the job done. I do believe both cattle and horses would benefit from knowledgeable people handling them before headed to floor.


Horses are livestock and should be considered so. Have you seen the bill looking to pass in Massachusetts? No outdoor dogs? That is where horse ownership is heading if not considered livestock. 

Horses were used for meat especially during the wars, not dogs(to my knowledge), hence the distinction. I know people to this day who will not waste the meat of a horse and butcher for themselves and their working dogs. I myself had a freezer of it two winters ago given to me to feed my dogs. I would like a renewable resource like horse meat be put to use either here or across seas. 
If the meat is to be used for human consumption it should be treated like cattle with either traceability and/or the proper drug withdrawal periods before slaughter. 


Going back to the Mustang. Years ago before the horse market collapsed one of my first jobs as a teen was starting mustangs to sell. Even when the market was good they wouldn't bring half of what a well bred QH would. In those days I sold a broken wind buckskin QH with some impressive papers for $7500 through a monthly sale but could only sell a mustang for $1500 that was handier. Showing is specialized and so are the bloodlines now days. I am not bashing mustangs as I have a little soft place in my heart for them but at the end of the day I have to think about a horse's marketability.
Look at the ranch horse market too. Ranches are buying the trendier lines because they sell and they have proven lines. The horse you can cowboy on during the week and go to ranch rodeo, horse show and win a buckle on. Ranch horses are a commodity and everywhere I had been, the ranch horse program helps pay for itself by selling useable horses for an increased price. Sure some horses are kept forever and the kids learn to rope off of them and when they are too old they get turned out with the broodmare band to live out their days. But again, those horses to help support the ranch horse program are better off being papered and of good lines.
If i were training for the public I wouldn't be training to sell and train mustangs to make my living I'd be buying the cutter/cowhorse/ reiner rejects to make barrel, rope, ranch horses. There is your money.



I remember when the horse market took a turn, they had security at sale yards to keep people from dumping horses. Horses were starving and neglected in huge numbers. Rescues were and still are at full capacity. Horses turned loose on the desert to fight for their lives. Yet that is better than the slaughter house? I was always told the cattle market is in a 10 year cycle. Horses no longer have the option of slaughter and it is taking 20+ years to start seeing the upswing.


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## Hondo

@COWCHICK77


RE: Wild cattle scatter like a covey of quail.
Comment: Absolutely true. I've witnessed it myself. And I've witness Catahoulas chasing them down and attacking them until they DO bunch up. Have you been around Catahoulas working wild cattle?


RE: I do believe horses could be euthanized in a slaughter house effectively.
Comment: I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on doing this.


RE: Horses are livestock and should be considered so.
Comment: This is what you believe and feel, but that does not necessarily make it true. Livestock are, to me, raised for food. The life of a horse is not dedicated to being food. Not until the end of life anyhow. My belief and feelings are that horses are in no way livestock.


RE: Have you seen the bill looking to pass in Massachusetts? No outdoor dogs? That is where horse ownership is heading if not considered livestock. 

Comment: Nope. Sound pretty ridiculous. My Great Pyrenees would bark against it. That said, to enter it in this discussion is out of place and a red herring. Just does not apply.


i.e. If dogs are required to be kept inside so will horses if not considered livestock. C'mon 


RE: Horses were used for meat especially during the wars, not dogs(to my knowledge), hence the distinction. 

Comment: People will eat anything when hungry enough, even each other. It was legal in the past for a parent to kill a child that struck them. That's no reason to make it legal today. Reasoning must be based on the consensus of the society we are living in. At least that's the way it's supposed to work.


RE: I remember when the horse market took a turn, they had security at sale yards to keep people from dumping horses. 



Comment: I'm not surprised and that is sad indeed. After the housing collapse in 2008 the ranch I was recently on was having a lot of people begging them to take their horses. Lots of problems with dogs when people lost their homes, but it's harder to care for a horse living in a car than it is for a dog.


But that's no excuse for us to close our eyes, turn our backs, and say just do it but don't talk to me about it.


When a horse can bring an owner 3.6 million dollars in the past which would be a great deal more today and not even receive the courtesy of a bullet to the head and a trip to the landfill for $75, something is rotten somewhere.


I give a simple example of Tucson and get a response, oh that's just one place. I reckon I being solicited to check every city in the USA? C'mon.


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## WildAbtHorses

Hondo,

I appreciate your honesty and your courage to stand your ground in what you believe to be good and right for the American horses.

And I appreciate you challenging us and our thoughts and beliefs making sure that we have thoroughly thought of all possibilities.

Trust me; it has taken me months to arrive at this point. I have spent countless hours agonizing over this dilemma.

It breaks my heart, thinking that things have come to this for these innocent horses, and I cannot bear the thought that any of them are unhappy or hungry or thirsty or in need of dental or hoof care.

I am not one for "playing" God, but if it has to be done, it has to be done correctly, and I believe the only way we can make sure of that is to do it ourselves. Well, not me, I'm mainly a vegan and have a difficult time comprehending the killing of an animal, let alone performing the act. Just curious... how does one get their dead horse to the trash dump? 1,000 pounds of dead weight? I can't move my 8 pound cat if she doesn't want to move.

Stay strong!


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## Knave

@Hondo cattle still require being “dog broke.” I know catahoolas are seriously aggressive, but the cows are broke to them. Our cows have, over the years, forgotten about dogs (granted they are not those types of cows or dogs). They are very difficult around cows, and will be until they get broke to the idea.

I don’t think @COWCHICK77 meant “in the house,” but likely she meant “in the stall.” Not to speak for her by any means, but that’s how I read it.



The definition of livestock: “farm animals regarded as an asset.” When I file my taxes, my horses are assets. This is because I need them for my job. Therefore, by standard objective definition, to me they are livestock. To Hondo they are not an asset for farm/ranch work, thereby objectively not livestock for him. 

I find them to be livestock because they are for me. It is my culture. Just as it is the culture of many of my friends to eat a horse. Cultural anthropology requires one to not judge a culture by one’s own standards. That said, I don’t believe much in following rules just because someone says so.


----------



## Hondo

The horse industry is well heeled and has influences in DC through well paid lobbyist. The slaughter of horses is a convenient pipeline of disposal the horse industry is more than willing to pay to preserve.


----------



## Hondo

RE: @*Hondo* cattle still require being “dog broke.” I know catahoolas are seriously aggressive, but the cows are broke to them. Our cows have, over the years, forgotten about dogs (granted they are not those types of cows or dogs). They are very difficult around cows, and will be until they get broke to the idea.


Comment: Absolutely agree. Very familiar to dog broke. Even dog breaking the babies so they stay closer to mom for protection from the cats.


When the dogs after sometimes a long protracted effort finally get a group of very wild cows corralled into a bunch, and the riders getting to them in time to hopefully stop the dogs from scattering the cows from too much aggression, the cowboys sitting on the cows and then turning the dogs back onto them if one or some starts to drift is exactly what dog training is. I mentioned doing that in the post but didn't use the dog training term to people unfamiliar with cattle gathers.


Three good dogs will easily eliminate the need for at least three cowboys or more. Not talking good Border Collies here but good Catahoulas.


And yes, I understand the culture thing. I have 6 semester units of psychology and 3 semester units of sociology under my belt.


And yes, I was raised in a culture where horses were very much livestock even if some got to retire for life in a pasture where no cow ever did. But still, no one questioned a horse being sent to the glue factory.


But cultures change over time, and the culture across the USA is not the one I grew up in. And I admit to lamenting the loss of a lot of it.


But today, this day, I do not believe horses are considered across the board livestock. Just do not believe it is so.


I'm going to add a soft comment here, at least I hope it is soft.


There's been some strong opinions backed by some strong beliefs going on with some bordering on contentious. I can't see that the discussion topic could be otherwise.


For myself, although irritated at times, I do appreciate having my thinking challenged as it does cause me to look inward for a more detailed and definitive awareness of what I actually believe and why.


I am more about learning what others think, including and especially myself.


Every sentence on the thread has been a learning experience for me, in one way or another.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ me too Hondo


----------



## Hondo

Disclaimer: I do understand that the topic posted by the OP is Wild Horses and Burros VS Private livestock on public lands. But it is difficult to talk about that in a vacuum as other factors, particularly slaughter, impact that topic to some degree.



Looking around, this study turned up regarding correlations between neglect/abuse and Slaughter, The Economy, and Hay Prices.


The study was done a few years ago but I see no reason why it is not just as applicable today at this very moment.


The structured conclusions were that the availability of slaughter had no correlations with neglect/abuse where the economy and hay prices, as would be expected, did correlate with reported neglect/abuse.


https://nebula.wsimg.com/bf19bfcb15...D3B28133304149D62&disposition=0&alloworigin=1


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## Hondo

I just must paste/post the statement below as it expresses my sentiments so well.


AnonymousDecember 2, 2008 at 4:36 am 
A cow or pig would be different from a horse because we did not fight and win some of the greatest, most historical wars of our country on the backs of pigs or cows. The pony express was not founded on nor brought forth on the back of a pig or cow. Lawfulness in cities across the country are not managed by policeman on “cowback”. Cows and pigs do not carry our children in parades that are meant to celebrate the very fabric of our American pride! THAT my friend is why it is different. Horses are not only companion and sport animals, they are a living breathing symbol of our American heritage and I for one will never support the inhumane slaughtering of an American icon for profit nor pride. Nor will I ever advocate the practice of exporting America’s horse simply to adorn the plates of foreign nations who are convinced in its delicacy. If you cannot afford your horse or do not want your horse, then pay to have it humanely uthanized by a veterenarian. If you want to go a step further, donate its meat to a large cat sanctuary and prolong the existance of our wild animal population.


----------



## 281187

Hondo said:


> I just must paste/post the statement below as it expresses my sentiments so well.
> 
> 
> AnonymousDecember 2, 2008 at 4:36 am
> A cow or pig would be different from a horse because we did not fight and win some of the greatest, most historical wars of our country on the backs of pigs or cows. The pony express was not founded on nor brought forth on the back of a pig or cow. Lawfulness in cities across the country are not managed by policeman on “cowback”. Cows and pigs do not carry our children in parades that are meant to celebrate the very fabric of our American pride! THAT my friend is why it is different. Horses are not only companion and sport animals, they are a living breathing symbol of our American heritage and I for one will never support the inhumane slaughtering of an American icon for profit nor pride. Nor will I ever advocate the practice of exporting America’s horse simply to adorn the plates of foreign nations who are convinced in its delicacy. If you cannot afford your horse or do not want your horse, then pay to have it humanely uthanized by a veterenarian. If you want to go a step further, donate its meat to a large cat sanctuary and prolong the existance of our wild animal population.



And? The same could be said for.... basically _everywhere else_ in the world. The horse has been a beast of burden, an animal of war, an instrument of the police-force and used in celebrations and festivals by many, many, *many* cultures and countries all the world over. 

The United States of America is _not_ unique in that regard and frankly it's always baffled me why we reserve so much sentiment for the horse. We repeated history that's been going on for thousands of years already, woohoo what an accomplishment. /s 


And also of note regarding people riding cows: 
















https://www.smithsonianmag.com/travel/save-horse-ride-cow-swiss-alps-180958541/ 

https://www.horsenation.com/2014/09/29/saddle-yourcattle/ 

https://www.thefencepost.com/news/oklahoma-couple-breed-longhorns-for-riding/ 

It's a thing and it's done quite successfully. Beef, dairy, bareback, saddlebroke.... you want it, you can apparently find a cow trained to do it. 


As for the big cats, we only have so many of those in the US. Even taking into account both Zoos, Sanctuary's and privately owned cats.... I find it hard to believe that a few thousand cats could consume well over a hundred thousand horses per year. Plus the horses couldn't be euthanized via lethal injection as that makes the meat unsafe for for consumption, so the horses would have to be put down via bullet or captive bolt. 

Which they would be anyway in the slaughterhouse.


----------



## Hondo

Spending a moment directly aimed at the OP's thread title, surprisingly the taxpayers are contributing more to support private livestock on public land than to the reduction management of equines on public land. Ample statistic abound on the net for this statement for those dubious.



This would seem to directly apply also........


I just don't see how the equines can be singled out for damage to the rangeland with such a disparity in numbers. Stay tuned for an explanation sure to follow.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Anonymous December 2, 2008 at 4:36 am 
" [Anonymous] will never support the inhumane [but will support humane?] slaughtering of an American icon for-profit [even if it goes to supporting the remaining herd?]. Nor will [Anonymous] ever advocate the practice of exporting 'America's horse to adorn the plates of foreign nations who are convinced in its delicacy [How about the starving children of the United States?]. If you want to go a step further, donate its meat to a large cat sanctuary and prolong the existence of our wild [in captivity] animal population."

Interesting. [Anoynymous] is not opposed to the slaughter and providing horse meat to wild animals held in captivity.

Thanks for the "repost." 

BTW: This OP, like this forum's thread, has evolved and morphed into a more comprehensive and informed individual, like this discussion thread.

As for "The History and Cause of Equine Abuse & Neglect: Statistical Analysis" by John Holland [How an electrical engineer once heading up a robotics company servicing the nuclear industry came to testify against horse slaughterhouses later in his life] https://www.equinewelfarealliance.org

Page 16: "The spike in abuse and neglect in 2008 was undoubtedly the result of the spike in hay prices across much of the country (Figure 2) due to the massive 2007-2008 drought in the Southeastern US. "

IMO It appears America's excess horses are going to be slaughtered, euthanized, killed. I feel strongly that American's must take responsibility for these innocent animals' end-of-life. If possible, repurpose them after death [as Anonymous recommended in 2008]. Why waste the meat? Why contribute to overfull landfills? Why not do some good from such a tragedy.

Riding bovines!?!


----------



## boots

Per the anonymous paragraph in post 423, I'm glad the person won't stand for inhumane slaughter of horses. Me neither. Which is a big reason I support shooting over chemical euthanasia.

Regarding the little graph comparing the number of livestock: Cattle and sheep are not on public land year round. Depending on the regulations set in the lease, they can only be on for *up to* a maximum number of weeks (often less than agreed upon) and within certain dates.

If leasing public land for livestock were ended completely, the feral horses would suffer. And it would get expensive for the BLM.

Below is a link to a white paper on biological diversity and symbiosis between livestock and wildlife. 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2351989417301075

If interested, Alan Savory offers courses, some free, on managed grazing and regenerating rangelands.

If only the BLM could funnel resources into that instead of lawyers.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I have come a long way! My current focus is finding passable solutions for what Americans can do with the 100,000 excess wild horses. And, to establishing long-term solutions for managing wild herds in the wild, so this excess NEVER happens again.

All Americans must be educated and engaged and be part of the solutions along with the future management of America's wild horses and wild horse herds. Period.

I am currently re-reading all of the posts to incorporate the most pertinent info into the handout-book. October 7, 2019, is my target printing date.


----------



## 281187

Hondo said:


> Spending a moment directly aimed at the OP's thread title, surprisingly the taxpayers are contributing more to support private livestock on public land than to the reduction management of equines on public land. Ample statistic abound on the net for this statement for those dubious.



That's a tactic that the wild horse "advocates" use frequently, but they don't usually take into account multiple factors. 

There are *640 million* public land acres in the US. The horses only occupy _31.6 million_ acres of it. That's roughly _5%_ of total public lands. So right off the bat, it isn't truthful to say that livestock outnumber the horses however many times to one over the course of *all* public lands when the horses themselves don't even graze 95% of the land in discussion. 

Livestock are usually only permitted to graze for a few months out of every year (Usually between May to October). The horses live on their lands all year around. 

During times of drought livestock operators can and are ordered by the BLM to remove their livestock from their grazing allotment/s. Usually for the _benefit_ of the horses and wildlife. 

The 1971 act specifies that the lands set aside for the horses are _not_ to be used exclusively for their use, so it's even defined in the law itself that the horses have to share. The only lands that are supposed to be managed totally for the horses are Wild Horse *Ranges*. Which are _not_ the same thing as HMA's (Herd Management Areas). There are 177 HMA's. Compared to only *4* Ranges. 

It's not just livestock the horses have to share with either- Wildlife (Deer, Antelope, Elk and Bighorn sheep, etc and so forth), mining and oil/gas drilling, logging, hunters and recreationists. The BLM (And the other Government agencies that manage public land too) manage for _multiple_ use on public land. 

The livestock operators have to pay for the privilege to graze their stock. As do the miners, loggers 
and hunters. Horses and recreationists are the only ones who don't have to pay for using public lands.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Hondo said:


> @*COWCHICK77*
> 
> 
> RE: Wild cattle scatter like a covey of quail.
> Comment: Absolutely true. I've witnessed it myself. And I've witness Catahoulas chasing them down and attacking them until they DO bunch up. Have you been around Catahoulas working wild cattle?



Yes, I have I cowboyed a short time in Oklahoma and on the coastal mountains of California where they are commonly used so I am familiar with the technique you described. I also ran and bred Hanging Tree crosses which we used here in the mountains with the Mexican and Arizona water trapped cattle we ran in the summer.


What you are describing using the Catahoulas is cow training teaching them to stay in a bunch unless let out, not their natural instinct. We teach cattle like horses. You put the pressure on whether it be by a dog hanging off its head or just by slightly tipping your horse's head using enough pressure necessary to get the desired response then releasing. Or you can make them dull and teach them bad habits by always pushing, yelling at them or letting them get away with ducking off in the brush.





> RE: I do believe horses could be euthanized in a slaughter house effectively.
> Comment: I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on doing this.



I am not quite sure on the equipment or facilities but my point was that using people who well versed in stock handling makes a huge difference. We have gotten away with using some pretty sketchy homemade setups to process or catch and load not so gentle cattle. Handling makes a big difference.




> RE: Horses are livestock and should be considered so.
> Comment: This is what you believe and feel, but that does not necessarily make it true. Livestock are, to me, raised for food. The life of a horse is not dedicated to being food. Not until the end of life anyhow. My belief and feelings are that horses are in no way livestock.



Your feelings don't make it so either. If you choose not to butcher a horse then don't. However I feel 50,000 horses are wasting away in pens. Of course not all would go to slaughter they go through the process of being deemed unadoptable as outlined in the Wild Horse Act.





> RE: Have you seen the bill looking to pass in Massachusetts? No outdoor dogs? That is where horse ownership is heading if not considered livestock.
> 
> Comment: Nope. Sound pretty ridiculous. My Great Pyrenees would bark against it. That said, to enter it in this discussion is out of place and a red herring. Just does not apply.
> 
> 
> i.e. If dogs are required to be kept inside so will horses if not considered livestock. C'mon



I think you took my example quite literal. As @Knave said, I did not mean horses would have to be kept in houses. But people who should not have a say on how we house livestock will. It is bad enough with people calling animal control about horses in the snow or snatching calves from under a fence thinking they had been abandoned. 

In my opinion, a lot of the problem is people have no real life experience with animals or agriculture but have a lot to say about it. Especially the PETA and similar groups that use shock value to influence uneducated folks.




> RE: Horses were used for meat especially during the wars, not dogs(to my knowledge), hence the distinction.
> 
> Comment: People will eat anything when hungry enough, even each other. It was legal in the past for a parent to kill a child that struck them. That's no reason to make it legal today. Reasoning must be based on the consensus of the society we are living in. At least that's the way it's supposed to work.



I would hardly compare killing a child to horse slaughter. And I have ate a lot of things other people would not consider edible whether I was starving or not. Vegans and vegetarians don't eat beef so does that mean we should stop raising and slaughtering them? I eat goat, calf nuts, squid and suspect dog at some of the sketchy taco stands(LOL). I'll eat horse meat too. 

It doesn't make me a cold hearted person. I love my horses but if it came down to my family starving I'd have to make a hard decision. I am the one who cries when I have to shoot a downed cow or a chronic calf dies that I had been doctoring. But I also don't want meat wasted and a couple minutes of discomfort is better than a lifetime of so for the sake of feelings.





> RE: I remember when the horse market took a turn, they had security at sale yards to keep people from dumping horses.
> 
> 
> 
> Comment: I'm not surprised and that is sad indeed. After the housing collapse in 2008 the ranch I was recently on was having a lot of people begging them to take their horses. Lots of problems with dogs when people lost their homes, but it's harder to care for a horse living in a car than it is for a dog.
> 
> 
> But that's no excuse for us to close our eyes, turn our backs, and say just do it but don't talk to me about it.
> 
> 
> When a horse can bring an owner 3.6 million dollars in the past which would be a great deal more today and not even receive the courtesy of a bullet to the head and a trip to the landfill for $75, something is rotten somewhere.
> 
> 
> I give a simple example of Tucson and get a response, oh that's just one place. I reckon I being solicited to check every city in the USA? C'mon.



Again I refer to my comment above. I don't think we should turn our backs but the outlet needs to be there. There should be steps for horses that get funneled through for a way out. Back when the market was good, the horses who had a bad habit or outsmarted their inexperienced owner I could hopefully turn around quickly. The horse got a home rather than headed up the chute onto the truck and I made money for my effort. Now try that, the money isn't there.



In reality the mustang is not a good option for most of the horse owning population, regardless of the requirements. It is the lack of people who are capable and willing. The supply must meet the demand and the supply has far exceeded the demand.


----------



## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> Interesting. [Anoynymous] is not opposed to the slaughter and providing horse meat to wild animals held in captivity.



Horses are not slaughtered for meat provided to wild animals held in captivity. They are humanely euthanized and then dismembered. Big difference.


----------



## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> However, it appears the United States has a systemic problem with the majority of American horse populations; especially concerning what to do with the excess and unwanted, *but even more importantly, how that excess came into existence.*



Exactly.


As long as more horses are produced than are wanted, there will be an unwanted excess.


Simple math.


----------



## boots

Hondo said:


> Exactly.
> 
> 
> As long as more horses are produced than are wanted, there will be an unwanted excess.
> 
> 
> Simple math.


Right. 

Seems like we just circled back to the beginning and have only identified the problem. 

There are more domestic and feral horses than potential owners. Buyers can be very selective.

Education and market forces can impact the domestic market. Not as much as I would like, and I don't breed and sell, I just care. 

That leaves over population of the feral horses. Again, other than seeing taxes wasted on lawsuits and ever-increasing warehousing, the horses aren't impacting me directly. I just care about them.


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## SilverMaple

Yep, we're right back where we started. Far too many feral horses that nobody wants.


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## 281187

I think this thread has run it's course several times over now. We're all just beating around the bush.


----------



## mred

And no federal politicians with enough guts to fix it. Turn it over to the states. They might do better or worst. But maybe they would do something. At least the problems in that state could be decided by the people of that state and not by people on the east and west coast that have never owned and some have never seem a horse except in the movies. 

Even in Alabama we see the mustangs. A person that I met wanted to give someone 5 mustangs that he had. He had them for over 5 years. Never touched them. Dreamed of being a big cowboy. Had a little money and land. Turned them loose on some land after 5 years, wanted to get rid of them. He guessed they were still there, he never checked on them. He gave them away and they went to a sale. At the time I had 5 young rescues and 5 older horses.

I have been lucky in my life. I have a good job and a little land. I have 6 horses, 4 ponies, 2 dogs and 19 cats. All are fixed and cared for the best that I can. All but 2 horses and 1 cat are rescues. At my age and health, I can not save any more. I no longer hunt but don't have any problem with other people hunting, if the meat does not go to waste. There are just not enough people to rescue 100,000 wild mustangs and 100,000 domestic horses.


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## COWCHICK77

I too agree we've made a few laps.

We all agree there is a surplus and the numbers need to be controlled but unfortunately, all sides can't seem to agree on how to do it. The BLM stuck it's head in the sand trying to appease all sides and it made the problem worse.


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## WildAbtHorses

Review and comment on:

Summer 2019 Advisory Board Meeting | Boise, ID
https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/get-involved/advisory-board

BLM Advisors’ Recommendations from July Meeting
https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/wildhorse_advbrd_boisemtg_brdrecs.pdf

October 29-31, 2019 NATIONAL WILD HORSE AND BURRO ADVISORY BOARD TO MEET IN WASHINGTON, D.C.
https://www.blm.gov/press-release/national-wild-horse-and-burro-advisory-board-meet-washington-dc

SKYDOG'S ALTERNATIVES TO ROUNDUPS AND HOLDING PENS
https://www.skydogranch.org/take-action-now

Should management move away from Federal control? If yes, how? What would State owned and managed herds look like? How would they work?!?


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## WildAbtHorses

The BLM is finally doing what it should have done years ago: Go West
William Perry Pendley, opinion contributor Published 6:00 a.m. MT Sept. 23, 2019
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opi...ement-finally-moving-workers-west/2388063001/

Interesting that William Pendley wrote the above article?!?

New BLM headquarters to share a building with a Chevron corporate office
By Juliet Eilperin and Steven Mufson September 21, 2019 at 4:07 p.m. EDT
https://www.washingtonpost.com/clim...6a06d8-dbd7-11e9-bfb1-849887369476_story.html


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Sorry for the abrupt "Review and comment" request. But where do we go from here? Yes, we've exhausted the Public Open Land and the End-of-Life discussions, but we still have 100,000 wild horses in need of a solution.

And, I have to admit I am not happy with the thought of William Perry Pendley and David Bernhardt in charge of their fate. New BLM offices in Aziona and Colorado but none in Nevada?

If you're done with this discussion, I understand. Thank you for all of the great information, opinions, and stories. It has been very rewarding, but I have to hang on, at least, until after the next BLM Wild Horses & Burros Advisory meeting in October. ~40 days from now.

Again, thank you and 'Bless the Beasts and Children' -Glendon Swarthout.


----------



## Hondo

Well, I want to say that this thread has been somewhat of an eye opener for me and definitely expanded my awareness of the titled topic and others that followed. More awareness on any level, to me is good.


You continued posting many times when no one replied. Glad you continued or I may have missed a lot of stuff.


Yes, as you say, we still have 100,000 wild horses in need of a solution. But the solution in it's entirety was never to be found is a single thread. Lots and lots of people have been working on a solution for a long while now.


That said, I am confident that the mere existence of this thread has had a positive effect on an eventual solution. I believe that.


As far as this thread having run it's course, I'm not so sure.


It's my opinion that you and only you can and are to make that determination. Other than a moderator in cases where things just get out of hand.


Many things have been looked at from many angles but I for one do not know if all the angles have been looked at and discussed or not.


But for those who feel the thread has run it's course, well, there's always the old unsubscribe button.


Myself, I'll hang around.


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## Hondo

Hmm, just read an article on cattle and global warming that might be on topic without too much of a stretch.


Controversial for certain and may bring in a few more posts. 



https://getpocket.com/explore/item/if-everyone-ate-beans-instead-of-beef?utm_source=pocket-newtab


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## WildAbtHorses

Hondo,

I have "EcoAnxiety," and "MustangAnxiety." Interesting article and I do like "beans for beef scenario is the dietary equivalent of effective altruism" it's like even one bag makes a difference. My mantra is "don't need, don't need" unless I do need.

Yes, a controversial topic, especially I'm sure with cattle-folks. Same with dairy and the Dairy Industry.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

This is what I'm working on (slowly).

The following are four (4) five (5) minute speech to be presented at the October 30-31 BLM WH Advisory meeting.
***Need Four Presenters*** who are or will be in Washington, D.C. and is comfortable with public speaking.

BTW - These are Work-in-Progresses:

Managing Wild Horses and Horse Herds in the Wild:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/79c88b43-d4b0-4542-a0ff-6e0953766fec

Captive Wild Horses in Holding:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/c24782e8-30b7-4adb-97d6-6dc8acc788e5

Wild Horses Vocational Schools:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/799762ae-0b3f-4a66-b4c5-7020d5b87050

Wild Horses End-of-life:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/286fe1aa-0447-46d9-9881-749c4a995990

Wild Horses Little Book:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7

BTW: I know I need NatGeo's permission to reprint Ben Masters' article. I'm working on it.


----------



## Hondo

I'd like to sit and chat with Masters one on one and pick his brain a little because of the people he has talked to and the hands on experience he has had.


It was his idea and effort, I believe, that convinced the N. Forest to accept sterilized herds in various areas of the NF but it fell apart do to protest from the Cloud Foundation and others.


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## Hondo

RE: I have "EcoAnxiety," and "MustangAnxiety."
Comment: Would you like to make that three?


Warning: VERY CONTROVERSIAL


Quote: "He publishes his findings on a website he founded called Horseracing Wrongs, and they include more than 5,000 racetrack deaths (he calls them “kills”) over the last five years, with names, dates, and locations. On his desk, the lists of the deaths through last December had been printed and bound in a 130-page spiral-bound book. He gave it to me to take home."


https://deadspin.com/the-man-who-would-kill-horse-racing-1838098923?utm_source=pocket-newtab


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## WildAbtHorses

The future of America's wild horses are in the hands of young Americans; they don't know it --yet.

America's Wild Horses (WH) needs a Greta Thunberg or a Xiuhtezcatl Martinez to SHOUT to the World "HELP please pay attention to us!"

"Don't stay unaware and unengaged any more! Don't turn your backs on us again."

"Please pay attention to us; we are in pens and pastures without proper healthcare that we deserve."

"Please pay attention to us; we have overpopulated and are in desperate need of Plan Parenthood."

"Please pay attention to us; we are being transported long distances to be slaughtered." "If you must, take care of it yourself, at home in our backyard, please."

Pony Clubs of America Unite!
https://www.ponyclub.org

Washington, D.C. Pony Clubs, please attend the BLM WH Oct 30-31 Washington, D.C. WH Advisory meeting.
https://capital.ponyclub.org
https://northwest.ponyclub.org
http://www.senecavalleyponyclub.org
United States Pony Club Riding Center ? Heritage Livestock
Rock Creek Park Horse Center
https://www.ironbridgehoundsponyclub.org


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## Hondo

I thought and still think the plan where the US Forest Service had agreed to designated areas for sterilized holding pen horses to live out their lives under a wild setting was a really good option.


The advocates killed it by threatening lawsuits because it was not natural. The option is to live out their lives in captivity.


The males are already sterile which means almost half could be moved to these areas right now. In the wild, around 90% of the males live in bachelor horse bands so it would not be unnatural at all.


With the millions being spent on holding pens, it just seems that a safe method for sterilizing the mares could be developed. But I'm sure some are working on it, hopefully.


I'll admit to being a little skeptical about raising concern for the USA Mustang dilemma in other parts of the world.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

New Mustang Changelle: Face Your Interself in the Eyes of a Mustang

Are you man or woman enough to see a mirror of yourself reflected in a wild horse's eyes?

The Wild West has a limited opportunity to see, only 100,000 available; this is a once in a lifetime chance to see your reflection in a captured wild horse. The offered is on a first-come basis, so hurry and sign-up!

You won't want to miss out. To learn more about seeing yourself in a horse's eyes, please watch PBS' How Horses Read Our Expressions (Premiered: Jan 16, 2019).

Here is a Clip | Equus "Story of the Horse" | Episode 1: Origins
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/equus-story-of-the-horse-how-horses-read-our-expressions/16969/


----------



## Hondo

The most fascinating story I've read to date about a horse's ability to read a total stranger is the story of Clever Hans. 



He couldn't do arithmetic but he could read facial cues better than a trained psychologist.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans


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## Hondo

Just read the Wiki article and was disappointed. Did not go into the details of what I have read previously.


Recap: Perfect strangers Hans had never seen would come up from the audience and ask a simple arithmetic problem. Hans would answer correctly. A psychologist tried it and was still not convinced. He had a graduate student ask Hans while the psychologist observed.


The psychologist then put his grad student behind a screen, and Hans blew it.


Some have concluded Hans was not so smart after all. But to me, the fact that he could read a perfect stranger and tell when he had given the correct number of hoof stomps for the correct answer, was incredible.


There is a saying you may have heard, "A horse is a mirror to your soul". I theorize, "A horse is a mirror to your sub-conscious", because that is what the horse sees. We are pretty good at masking our subconscious but our body language often rats on us. If a horse is watching us, our body language ALWAYS rats on us.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ I so enjoyed reading and learning about Hans. Thank you.

Jay Kirkpatrick, Ph.D. Wildlife Biologist:
1:18 wild horse herds - Spanish, Morgan, Draft, etc.
8:38 Native Species 1.7 Million years ago in N. America & reintroduced by man 300 years ago. Same species but may not be the same breed.
24:22 Compensatory Reproduction (just like what feral cats do).

Americans have been provided with an excellent research opportunity with these horses to capture genetics information and to GPS them and learn about their movements, diet, watering, herd tracking, health, etc.

Here is a 30-minute video from 2001:


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## WildAbtHorses

8:46 Marye Ann Thompson and her Cerbat Wild Horses near Willcox, Arizona.

Spanish Mustang Registry - Home Page
Marye Ann Thompson - raises Spanish Mustangs on their Apache Trail Ranch, including rare Cerbat lines.


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## Hondo

Comment on the disappearance of hoses in NA 11,000 years ago. I have never subscribed to the theory that they were hunted to extinction.


There simply weren't enough people to eat them if the could kill them. And they ate all the woolly mammoths too?? Surely they don't theorize that they hunted the sabre toothed tiger to extinction.


The theory that makes more sense to me is that when the humans came across the bearing straight they brought domesticated animals with them that carried diseases that the isolated NA animals had not developed resistance to.


Also will repeat what I read a way back that the minimum herd size for genetic stability was around 200. Below that inbreeding caused a decline in their ability to ultimately survive.


One of the articles I posted recently put cows and horses at a ratio of 37:1 . So why are the horses getting all the blame for ruining the range?


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## Hondo

Here's an article about humans causing the extinction of horses in North America. And now some people are wanting to do it again.


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## COWCHICK77

Hondo said:


> One of the articles I posted recently put cows and horses at a ratio of 37:1 . So why are the horses getting all the blame for ruining the range?


Were those numbers broke down into actual head number days?


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## Hondo

I believe so, I'd have to look again to be certain of my answer. The link is in one of my above posts.


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## Hondo

Here ya go. Briefly looking over it again I see a statistic labeled "rancher reported aum's". The ranch I was on would quit selling during drought when the price went down. I know for a fact their aum load had to be at least twice what they were paying. Some may run under but many run over.


To be certain, I'm not one who thinks all cattle grazing on public land should be stopped, just advocating "play fair".


BTW, the 37:1 figure includes burros, not just horses.


http://dailypitchfork.org/wp-conten...SFS-grazing-analysis_2014_Daily-Pitchfork.pdf


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## Hondo

And oh BTW, I see I failed to include the link about the human cause for the extinction of the wild horses in an above post.


https://paleoecology.wordpress.com/...oomsday-for-the-megafauna-of-the-pleistocene/


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## SilverMaple

But the cattle on the range are not there all year, and are pulled when the range has been grazed. Horses graze it continually, even when it's already damaged.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ The only thing I don't care for with livestock on public land are the fences. They stop the natural flow of wild species movement, which in turn causes the overuse in areas.

In one of the above YouTube videos it explains how the buffalo would wreak havoc on an area, but they would move on and not return for a long time, which allowed the area to recover.


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## WildAbtHorses

I'm so bummed. I wanted to contact Jay Kirkpatrick, P.h.D. Wow. He had been working with the BLM since 1971.

DR. JAY KIRKPATRICK (1940-2015)

With the death of Dr. Jay Kirkpatrick, we lost one of the leading advocates for humane wildlife population control. His research, development, production, and long-term use of immunocontraceptives in the field and in zoos to control reproduction benefited a wide range of animals, from horses on Assateague Island to elephants in South Africa. He demonstrated that one type of immunocontraceptive vaccine—porcine zona pellucida (PZP)—was highly effective, reversible, and safe for pregnant and nursing animals, while causing no serious side effects.

His dedication to the study of immunocontraceptives was triggered by a 1971 meeting with officials from the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), who asked if he could prevent wild horses from reproducing.


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## Hondo

SilverMaple said:


> But the cattle on the range are not there all year, and are pulled when the range has been grazed. Horses graze it continually, even when it's already damaged.



That is only true sometimes. The ranch I was on five years had around 5,000 deeded acres with 28,000 acres total with about half State Trust Land and half BLM. The sections are all checker bordered. The deeded property is not fenced. Only the outside perimeter of the entire 28k is fenced. They did have a large annual holding area fenced when they had to have their own scales and sold only once or twice a year at their ranch. They now haul to auction only when the price is high. The ranch's lease in permanent full time all year without any removal.


During one drought the BLM attempted to reduce the aum's allowed but the State didn't care so there was 5k plus 11k that the BLM couldn't control so they had to walk away.


There's lots of very large checker-bordered ranches with half being deeded. Same deal. No control. 



There are a lot of real old ranches that have year around grazing with no removal on BLM. The ranch I was on passed the centennial while I was there. And there are more in the general area.


I understood the article to be measuring AUM's to AUM's. Animal Unit Month for those that don't know.


So if a cow/calf was there for 6 months, they'd be counted as 6 AUMs. Now I read one article that said a horse was one AUM but if memory serves me it's either 1.25 or 1.5 AUMs. So 12 months with a horse at 1.25 would be 15 AUMs.


But no matter how it's sliced, you know as well as I and probably better that the cattle on the range absolutely drafts the WHB on the range. You know it I know it.


Sure, there are examples. But if we are going to use examples, lets talk about a depleted range where 50% of the natural vegetation has been destroyed by over grazing where there has never been a wild horse present since the USA was formed.


As long as we're comparing cattle and horses, lets talk about springs. Horses like nice clean water just like we do. Cows, (i love'm i even bonded heavily with one that put her owner in the hospital but that's another story), don't care. You know what they do to watering holes. They walk around in them and poop all over IN them. Horses if they can will walk away from their food trough to poop and definitely do NOT poop in the water.


I've stopped in a dry sandy wash and dug a hole for water for Hondo with a spring nearby that he would not touch because of it being fouled by cattle.


Hey, I don't have a dog in this race really except when the Mustangs (feral raised horses) are getting ran over and into the ground.


There's a lot I do not know. I only have Bachelor's degree from my five years of concentrated full time experiences on the ranch. No Masters or PHD but yep, I've been a few places and know a few things.


If there is anything you think you can contradict from anything I've said in this post, I'd like to hear it. Really. My entire life has been about learning. Still is.


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## WildAbtHorses

"Natural selection and the environment have produced small tough horses with some unique characteristics, and from a behavioral standpoint, wild horses have a complex social organization and structure." - Jay Kirkpatrick, Ph.D. (1940-2015)

Video 2001: "El Caballo: The Wild Horses of North America" (2001) - Short Version

It would be great if we could find a well-funded research team that wanted to complete an extensive in-depth study on America's wild horses that would include DNA, GPS tracking, behavioral, social, and compensatory reproduction.

The study could include both horses in the wild and the thousands currently in holding facilities like pens and pastures. And, hopefully, the research study team would provide proper healthcare, diet, and grooming to these horses.


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## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> ^ The only thing I don't care for with livestock on public land are the fences. They stop the natural flow of wild species movement, which in turn causes the overuse in areas.


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## WildAbtHorses

Re: Adopt a Horse has been a Fascinating Lesson in Biology
by Jay Kirkpatrick, P.h.D. Wildlife Biologist

"As you reduce the density of ungulates, reproduction becomes more efficient. Animals breed at a younger age, and they bred more often, and the survival of the younger is great than it was before. As we gather these horses and then gather all the young, it is like throwing an on-switch for those mares that we turn back on the range. They are now going to come into estrus, and they are going to bred and bred successfully. And 'Adopt a Horses' has done nothing else except cost the taxpayers an immense amount of money and has proven the textbooks right there is compensatory reproduction, and as you reduce the density, the reproduction speeds up."

24:18 - 25:05 //youtu.be/m9jeqU-xPFQ

El Caballo = horse.
ungulate = a hoofed mammal.


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## WildAbtHorses

The Wild Horse Dilemma: Conflicts and Controversies of the Atlantic Coast Herds
By Bonnie U. Gruenberg – January 6, 2015

“America’s mustangs have suffered greatly at our hands.” p.64.

“Government agencies in general, however, have a long history of using deception, betrayal, and shaky science to advance their objectives, and they have not always acted in the best interest of the mustangs.” p.64.

https://books.google.com/books?id=V...kirkpatrick p.h.d. wildlife biologist&f=false


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## Hondo

I watched the movie twice, haven't looked at the book yet. Busy at the new place.


I did want to mention though a concept about wild vs domesticatable. Wolves are for the most part not domesticatable. Zebras are not for the most part domesticatable. In fact most animals fall into that category.


The ones that can be domesticated have been. I have read that it is the non domesticateable that are truly wild. A feral horse acts wild because he is fearful, but they can be gentled because of who they are. Not so with many animals. Most can be handled when they are babies but when they turn adult, they turn wild. Those are the truly wild animals.


There are exceptions of course, but I'm talking generally. I think about that when people speak of 'wild' horses.


There are some theories that horses came to us before we came to them. Some think perhaps because there were fewer large predators hanging around human camps. In any case, some that study in that area do believe they came to us rather than the other way around. I'm talking about the initial contact in the beginning of course. After the discovery they were so willing, we went after them.


Then perhaps, (im speculating), someone tamed a baby and it didn't turn wild and the interaction began.


Some say humans would not have survived to this day without the dog in the beginning. Could it be the same for the horse? If so, we owe them.


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## WildAbtHorses

^Congrats on your recent move into your new place! From what I've read and watched horses are naturally curious, so it makes sense they would approach. They have good instincts? They can read faces?

Good point on wild animals vs. feral domesticable ones.

Here is another book:
Into the Wind: Wild Horses of North America
by Jay F. Kirkpatrick (Author), Michael H. Francis (Photographer) 1994.

The text for this book is not on Google Books:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Into_the_Wind.html?id=RQ5JAAAAYAAJ

A celebration of the wild horse that looks at their origin and natural history. The author has worked closely with wild horse herds all across America and has documented the struggle of the wild horse to survive and thrive in our ever-advancing civilization.


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## mred

The most important animal to be tamed was the cat. Without them early man could not store grain. They slowed down the rats. Dogs were tamed to help pull small carts before horses. Later for protection and food. Horses were hunted for food long before they were tamed.


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## Hondo

Ya gotta love the internet.


Horses tamed 30,000 years BC?! That was before dogs and cats.


First three links all say dogs domesticated prior to cats.


American Indians grew a lot of grain, corn, wheat, brown beans. No cats to guard them.





https://www.answers.com/Q/Which_was_domesticated_first_cats_or_dogs


https://www.quora.com/Which-were-domesticated-first-cats-or-dogs


https://pets.thenest.com/long-dogs-cats-domesticated-8595.html


https://pets.thenest.com/long-dogs-cats-domesticated-8595.html


https://www.thoughtco.com/domestication-of-horses-130189


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## WildAbtHorses

Don’t want to stray too far from the predicament man has placed America’s wild horses in but...

knowing how much Ancient Egyptians worshiped cats... and knowing how important the gains for Egypt was to Rome and knowing cats natural tenancies to kill mice...

“ The Ancient Egyptians held cats in the highest esteem, the penalties for injuring or killing a cat were severe. They worshipped a Cat Goddess, often represented as half feline, half woman, whom they called Bastet. The main center for the worship of Bastet was in northern Egypt at the city of Bubastis.”

30 centuries. Sounds like a very long time to be cat lovers. IMO and 30,000 years BCE sounds way before my time too...

Whatever... what matters right now is finding solutions for the 100,000 wild horses that are in need of forever homes... farriers, dentists, feed, grazing, fresh water, open pastures, basic healthcare and Planned Parenthood.


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## Hondo

Agreed! Yesterday matters much less than tomorrow.


BTW, thank you for the "Congrats on your recent move into your new place!"


I'll be even happier when the muddy road I'm now living on drys up. Most of the time it's ok but recent torrential rain did it in.


I think the solution to the Mustangs in the long term holding area, short of a monumental adoption program by the BLM, lies within changing what I view as the misguided thinking of the of the WHB advocates.


The USFS as I understand had agreed to take them all into free living on designated areas provided all were sterilized but that was shot down by the WHB advocates as not natural, as if living out their lives in holding pens was natural. All the males are already sterilized and could be transferred at once.


In speaking to a friend that had a mare spayed in the past said it cost around $500. Have not confirmed but if $1,000 is spent on food per year, that sounds like the way to go.


I'd like to also comment on many WHB advocates that mourn splitting up families.


The young stallions are forcefully driven from the herd around 2 YO. They are not taken to a band of bachelor stallion, introduced, and made to fit. They are cast out to find a stallion bachelor band before a predator finds them.


The females are not driven out by the band stallion, but the band stallion is constantly being challenged by a younger stronger stallion and very often a few of the mares are cut out of his band to be herded off by the challenger.


So enough about Mustangs living out peaceful family lives. Doesn't happen. A band of geldings and spayed mares will live out a much more peaceful and happy life.


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## mred

Horses about 3000 bc, not 30000.
dogs - 2 sets one 6400 years ago, other 14,000
cats - more than one set, oldest set in middle east 10,000 years ago.

The native americans could also grow corn without fences until pigs were released here.

There were bison before the cattle. I know several cattle people and most make a living, not a fortune. The dog shelters put dogs and cats to sleep everyday. 

We need to do something about the horses in holding pens. If you want to feed them for another 10 years, then you can. Most of these horses would be better off put down. And before you get rid of them there will be another 10,000 to 30,000 more. We only have a limited amount of resources. Spend that on the 25,000 or so they can be left on the range.(with birth control) 
Yes, save the wild horses. Save the dogs and cats that you can. But remember that they are animals and there are humans in this world going hungry everyday. 
My horse run free on my land, along with dogs and 19 cats at the barn. But if I had one of my dogs hurt one of my grand children, It would be put down. Why would we not try to feed part of the people without food?


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## Hondo

You're right. I misread.


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## WildAbtHorses

From the Kill Pen (it is free on Prime Video).
https://www.amazon.com/Kill-Pen-Milton-Bagby/dp/B06XTSZV9W

"Fact-driven and without gratuitous violence, From the Kill Pen is an exploration of America's underground horse slaughter industry. From its inhumane practices to its unregulated meat products, the film exposes the horse slaughter pipeline for what it truly is - a potentially toxic, financially driven network operating within the seedy underbelly of Big Ag and at the expense of taxpayers."

From the Kill Pen (2016) - IMDB Rating: 7.5/10 - ‎34 votes. 76 minute Documentary. Horse slaughter is more than inhumane. A film rich in knowledge and beauty what could be better than that?
https://vimeo.com/103562851

BTW: I haven't watched it, but I feel that we should all be watching it. I'm thinking its been THREE YEARS since its release and "things" are still the same.


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## WildAbtHorses

The Story of America's Wild Horses and Burros (56 minutes)
BLMNational Published May 2014





Released May 2012 - Produced by the Bureau of Land Management, this video helps us better understand how the BLM came to manage federally protected wild horses and burros on millions of acres of public lands across the West. Current and former BLM employees, historians, horse advocates, and others tell their parts of this continuing story.

From the DVD Cover:
The public lands of the Western United States are diverse, ruggedly beautiful, and majestic - as are the horses and burros that live there. These animals are born with the colors of the land upon them. The browns, blacks, reds, blues, dapple grays, and snowy whites all reflect nature's paint brush.

Today, America's wild horses and burros are found in 10 western states. It is the BLM's responsibility to preserve and protect healthy herds of wild free-roaming horses and burros as components of the public lands. 

The Wild Horse Annie Act of 1959 and the Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971 gave wild horses and burros a legal right to live on public lands without harassment. The Adopt-A-Horse or Burro Program was initiated in 1973 to meet the challenges of balancing the health of public lands with the health of the wild horses and burros.

To read about many adoption success stories, go to www.facebook.com/BLMWildhorseandburro.

To learn how you can adopt a wild horse or burro, visit www.blm.gov, call 866-4-Mustangs (866-468-7826) or email [email protected].


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## WildAbtHorses

Not perfect, but it will hopefully give an individual or a group of folks ideas on what to present at the BLM's Wild Horses Advisory meeting in Washington, D.C. at the end of this month. October 30-31, 2019.

One Page on Jay Kirkpatrick (in gratitude and in memory of Dr. Kirkpatrick):
https://indd.adobe.com/view/3c0843dc-2ca9-4898-9d99-dab33a4b087c

A Proposed Introduction to the Proposed Presentations:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/8350f85a-b851-4a99-b8e7-be08ccbdafe0

Managing Wild Horses in the Wild:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/79c88b43-d4b0-4542-a0ff-6e0953766fec

Supporting Managing Wild Horses in the Wild with dedicated Wild Horses Vocational Schools:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/799762ae-0b3f-4a66-b4c5-7020d5b87050

Taking Care of all of America's Wild Horses in Captivity:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/c24782e8-30b7-4adb-97d6-6dc8acc788e5

Handling America's Wild Horses End-of-Life with Respect, Dignity, and Humanity:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/286fe1aa-0447-46d9-9881-749c4a995990

The Little Book on Wild Horses:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7

The Proposed Nationwide Poll Questionnaire (as a one-pager) - Draft:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/9fecdf74-7935-4bcd-9747-c077a37e3cfe


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## WildAbtHorses

Hi. This morning I received the following email and would be interested to hear your thoughts.
- - -
While I respect the hard work that wild horse advocates are doing, their messaging has also been ineffective because it puts wild horses at the center of the debate while the BLM and ranchers’ key message is the American public. If you don’t reach the public, you can’t win.

The most effective message at these meetings is to expose the cost, both environmentally and economically, of the federal grazing program and the rancher subsidies that pays for them, along with the shooting of wolves, bison, sage grouse, public lands and monuments, endangered species protections that the media is already covering. The cost of the grazing subsidies alone (it loses taxpayers more than $100 million every year in direct costs, up to a billion in indirect costs) puts the lie to the BLM’s claim to be looking to save taxpayers $ while protecting grass and forest land.

This message resonates with the media. The only part of the WH message that resonates with the media is that the ranchers are looking out for we the people and the WH people love horses and want them to be protected.

Until WH advocates put the public and public lands at the center of its message, it will continue losing the PR battle.

Feel free to share this message with the people on your list. Vickery.


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## WildAbtHorses

Here’s How America Uses Its Land
By Dave Merrill and Lauren Leatherby
July 31, 2018

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/


Compatibility of Livestock Grazing and Recreational Use on Coastal California Public Lands: Importance, Interactions, and Management Solutions by K.Wolf, R. Baldwin, S. Barry.. March 2017

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550742416300768


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## Hondo

You might want to check out the Taylor Grazing Act. The BLM cannot cancel the grazing leases. The only way is to purchase the ranchers AUM grazing rights at market value, and only then if the ranchers want to, which most don't and won't. Grazing leases are very expensive when sold.



Another thing you might want to investigate is the notion of declaring horses as a native species. That would bring in a whole new rule book. I have no idea whether it would be good, bad, or ugly.


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## bsms

Odd. I've had friends who LOST their grazing rights with the BLM. And they frequently adjust them down. They are expensive and the ranchers I've talked to all prefer grazing permits on PRIVATE land because they've been screwed too many times with public allotments. 

"_The cost of the grazing subsidies alone (it loses taxpayers more than $100 million every year in direct costs, up to a billion in indirect costs) puts the lie to the BLM’s claim to be looking to save taxpayers $ while protecting grass and forest land._"

Don't believe much of what you read on the Internet, particularly when EITHER side is arguing "real costs". It all depends on how you measure it. And since everyone I've talked to prefers private grazing land IF available - and with over 85% of Nevada being PUBLIC land, it often is not - I don't see how "public subsidies" of grazing works. It all depends on the hidden costs, and how folks measure them - but the people whose success depend on them say public grazing is a marginal value. But with 50-80% of the land publicly owned, getting private land to graze on is tough. Not sure folks back east can imagine it.

FWIW, went hiking about 10 miles south of my house on Forest Service land this morning. It is being grazed by cattle although we didn't run into any. Shod horses have been there in the last week working cattle, though. Right now, the cattle are grazing on the surplus:

















There is no private land between my wife and the mountain peak in front of her. Almost none in the second picture, either.

Lots of feed right now. Soon the cattle will be off, and the wildlife will stay. As would mustangs, if any lived there. And by February, the land will start looking beat down. NOT from cattle grazing. The feed doesn't last forever. I'm glad there are no mustangs here. We did spot a buck but the only picture I got was from so far away that it just looks like a blob of color something against the desert backdrop. But I prefer having NATIVE animals fighting each other for the feed than having mustangs driving down the deer.


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## Hondo

The number of AUMs can be reduced during dry years only because of depleted forage, but the AUMs cannot be pulled.


Many don't understand why. Here's why.


The first homesteads were given out in order to encourage settlement. Settlement was encouraged as the best means for securing the land. Unoccupied lands were easy prey for competing nations.


The original homesteads were 160 acres and in the midwest and south that was ample land for a family or more to make a living on.


But out west in the arid parts, homesteads went to either 600 or a full 640/section. But even then, it was impossible to make a living so people grazed on adjacent land.


When overgrazing became a problem with so many ranchers competing for the same acreage, the Taylor Grazing Act came to pass. Since the economics were such that if the grazing on public land were taken away, the rancher would be forced to leave, which is still true today. So the public land was divided up depending on how much deeded property each ranch had and fenced off. That way, if an area was overgrazed, it would be on that ranchers allotment, when before everyone was pointing fingers at each other.


Now Taylor, then a senator, was a rancher and cattleman himself and foresaw the possibility of efforts to eventually take the public grazing away. It was written up where that is not possible to do. 



Trust me, if it were possible to cancel the ranchers AUMs, there would be no AUMs today.


Now there "may" some acts of a rancher that could cause cancellation that I'm not remembering. But I do know that just a few years ago a rancher was found to be using a particularly lethal form of poison on coyotes and was fined only $60,000 with no loss of AUMs. The discovery was made when a hiker discovered several bald eagles dead adjacent to a dead coyote.


The BLM will verify the costs of managing the public grazing is in the neighborhood of $100,000,000 in excess of what they receive for leases. URLs with .gov and .edu are fairly dependable. The 100 mill number is all over the internet also. Not just one site. And there is no argument about it from ANY site, other than perhaps this thread.


And just because it's on the internet does not mean it's incorrect.


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## boots

AUMs are permanently reduced and lands taken out of availability for leasing every year. Permanently.

It's often assumed that the feral herds could thrive anywhere there is public land. But, that isn't so. 

Water type and availability is important. As is type of available forage. The feds are not going to plant specific grasses that favor the horses. Nor should they, IMO. That would drastically change ecosystems. And environmentalists, including range specialists, those who appreciate diversity for recreation, and ranchers, would all object. 

But, I am glad the BLM seems to be able to put more resources into seeking solutions lately.


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## bsms

"(d) The term of grazing permits or leases authorizing livestock grazing on the public lands and other lands under the administration of the Bureau of Land Management shall be 10 years unless -

(1) The land is being considered for disposal;

(2) The land will be devoted to a public purpose which precludes grazing prior to the end of 10 years;

(3) The term of the base property lease is less than 10 years, in which case the term of the Federal permit or lease shall coincide with the term of the base property lease; or

(4) The authorized officer determines that a permit or lease for less than 10 years is in the best interest of sound land management.

(e) Permittees or lessees holding expiring grazing permits or leases shall be given first priority for new permits or leases if:

(1) The lands for which the permit or lease is issued remain available for domestic livestock grazing;

(2) The permittee or lessee is in compliance with the rules and regulations and the terms and conditions in the permit or lease; and

(3) The permittee or lessee accepts the terms and conditions to be included by the authorized officer in the new permit or lease."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/43/4130.2

A friend bought a permit. The first year, he only ran at 20% allowed. He was then told his allotment was being cut 50% because DC ordered a 50% cut on all allotments in the state. He figured at least it would not affect him since he was only running 20% - but then he was told it was a 50% cut to whatever had been run the previous year. So he paid 100% and received 10%. He literally nearly lost the ranch on that one. 

He's not the only one who has told me stories like that. And it seems apparent from the public law that leases CAN be cut or eliminated.

"Grazing permits and leases require that ranchers pay a federal grazing fee, which is measured in animal unit months (AUMs). The federal grazing fee calculated using the 1966 base value of $1.23 per AUM. The amount is adjusted each year based on three market factors: private grazing lease rates, the cost of livestock production, and beef cattle prices. Under federal law, grazing fees cannot go below $1.35 per AUM. Additionally, any fee increases or decreases must stay below 25 percent of the previous year's fee.[1]

For fiscal year 2016, the BLM set the federal grazing fee at $2.11 per AUM. In fiscal year 2015, the grazing fee was $1.69 per AUM. In 2015, the BLM collected $14.5 million in grazing fees and spent $36.2 million on livestock grazing management.. Under federal statute, annual grazing fee receipts are shared with state and local governments."

https://ballotpedia.org/Grazing_permits_and_leases

That looks like a $22 million shortfall, but may not include required range improvements. It is not a $100 million shortfall. Those numbers came from the GAO. Here is what the BLM says:

"In Fiscal Year 2015, the BLM was allocated $79 million for its rangeland management program. Of that figure, the agency spent $36.2 million, or 46 percent, on livestock grazing administration. The other funds covered such activities as weed management, rangeland monitoring, planning, water development, vegetation restoration, and habitat improvement. In 2015, the BLM collected $14.5 million in grazing fees. The receipts from these annual fees, in accordance with legislative requirements, are shared with state and local governments."

https://www.blm.gov/programs/natural-resources/rangelands-and-grazing/livestock-grazing

"_“If you just look at the grazing fee itself, and you see the small amount on public land and then a 10-fold increase on private land grazing fees, it looks like — people call it a subsidy,” said John Tanaka, a rangeland economist at the University of Wyoming. “But when you consider all the costs involved in grazing, they’re roughly equal. Or in some cases, public land grazing can cost the rancher more.”

Joe Villagrana, a ranch manager from Lake County, in Southeast Oregon, says permits on public land carry their own costs.

“What people don’t realize is, by holding the permit, you are responsible for maintaining the fences, maintaining water, for example like water troughs,” Villagrana said. “And that costs money. So you add up time, labor, fuel, material and all that, it actually gets to be very expensive. So yeah, that sounds pretty cheap, but with everything that’s put on us to keep that permit, it costs us a lot of money.”_

https://www.opb.org/news/series/bur...dy-militia-news-updates/federal-grazing-fees/

Take a look at the pictures I posted. That is NOT equivalent to private grazing found in Arizona, and it would cost the rancher a lot more to run the cattle there. But then, 57% of Arizona is owned by the government...so yeah, a lot of acceptable grazing land IS going to be run by the government. A rancher who wants to stay in business needs to be flexible AND to compare the genuine value of the grazing offered in deciding what to pay where.

Hate to break the bad news, but ranchers are not making a killing off the BLM. Or USFS. And mustangs, if they existed on the land I hiked today, would destroy it.


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## Hondo

Yes, AUMs are taken permanently out of availability every year, but only by purchase and then only when the owner agrees to sell.


The Taylor Grazing Act was established to prevent overgrazing. The number of AUMs allotted to a particular lease parcel was based on the number of cattle that could be supported during normal rainfall. When, during times of less than normal rainfall, it is determined the land cannot support the allotted number of cattle, the number of cattle allowed is reduced until the forage recovers.


As mentioned in a previous post, there are situations where because of checker boarded ownership by either the state or private with no fencing between, the BLM does not have the ability to reduce AUMs without fencing off each of their individual sections of land. I have personal knowledge and experience in this. Not something I read somewhere.


BTW, the Taylor Grazing Act only pertains to the BLM leases, not state land leases or USNF leases.


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## bsms

AUMs have declined by over 50%. In SOME cases, the government has pressured people to sell. In others, they have just gone away, certainly NOT with the owner agreeing to sell. The Taylor Grazing Act was passed in the 1930s. Just like tax law, you cannot rely on it to be accurate today. Can't speak to "checkerboard" lands, but I know too many people who lost grazing rights in large chunks of land.

FWIW, it may depend on WHEN the grazing rights were bought. Someone with leases going back 80 years may have a different contract with the government than what is currently used in new contracts.

Bottom line? "_Grazing on public lands has declined from 18.2 million AUMs in 1954 to 7.9 million AUMs in 2013_" - and not because ranchers wanted it to go down. In many cases it has had nothing to do with the land being overgrazed. Ranchers also cannot compete politically with city people or hunters or ATVs. I'm not saying that is wrong, exactly. I believe in multiple use. I believe the desires of hunters and ATV riders and hikers and city folks who want to imagine something need to be taken into account.

But in the West, so much land is publicly owned that cutting grazing in half there means there is no land to move the animals to. It seems odd to me that "Mustangs" are a symbol of the American West, and "Ranchers" are symbols of Corporate Greed. The ranchers I've known have been families, which may be atypical for all I know. But this has more to do with the West I've experienced than "mustangs" do:










https://www.toddklassy.com/cowboy-photography/​
Maybe it is because we were 12 hours into the day and still had a few more hours to go, but crossing this minor highway speaks more to me of "The West" than a feral horse:








Not opposed to mustangs, just to unlimited privileges to mustangs granted by people in cities who never enter the state (Nevada) where half of them live....and who attack those whose work requires the use of horses. 

One of the deacons of the church I go to died at 85 from cancer. He did a career in the military, retired and bought a little land in Montana. He worked as a mechanic repairing trucks and spent the next 20 years slowly building a ranch. He eventually passed it to his sons, who continued to build the ranch. Before he died, his sons were full time ranchers looking to pass it on someday to their sons.

The guy with the sheep in the picture above started with 100 acres he inherited from his grandfather. Decided to try to make it into a working ranch. 40 years later, and after nearly losing everything a bunch of times (including losing multiple grazing rights he bought), he & his sons have about 500 acres of private land. Went from 50 sheep to 3,000 plus 2-400 cattle - varies by the year and what he expects the market to do.

I don't understand why people like him are being forced out because people who have never been within 1,000 miles of his place think he and people like him are evil.

I want mustangs. But not 100,000+ mustangs overgrazing and driving out the deer that ARE native to the land, or the ranchers who are IMHO a bigger part of the "American West" than some loose horses. Or sage grouse, who don't strike me as endangered birds:

https://www.opb.org/news/article/sage-grouse-grazing-restrictions-trump/


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## WildAbtHorses

I have to admit that I doubt anything will change in our lifetime and that the probability is --that things will continue as-is for another fifty years.

I have sent out 1,000s of e-mails to horse-related endeavors, newspapers, broadcasters, and I have received little or no responses. 

Unfortunately, I'm not making a difference, and I don't have any money to help solve this problem. It's those unfortunate horses that are in this messy because of human beings, and the majority of folks don't seem to care -period. If I can't even motivate my friends and family, I have to accept, it-is-what-it-is and move on. It is very hard turning your back on those wild horses.

I have started a new one-pager (it's blank right now):
https://indd.adobe.com/view/4b592821-22ce-4677-9862-00cc9a203b72


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## Hondo

Please allow me to share a little story from my own personal experience about public grazing permits. No links, no paste.


The owner of the ranch where I spent 5 years put all deeded property in a trust with his one daughter and son and their spouses as trustees. He kept the grazing allotment contracts as his own property which he had willed to his wife.


After he died during my tenure at the ranch, the trustees traded almost one full section of deeded land to the widow for possession of the grazing leases. 



Granted, a section of land in the foothills of the Bradshaw Mountains is not worth what it would be in downtown NYC, but it's still worth a fair chunk of change. The trustees valued the grazing leases more than that section of land.


Now none of us actually own any real estate even if paid off and holding a clear title. We have certain rights of use, including the transfer of those rights. But a city, county, state, or the government can condemn our property for the greater public good if they see fit. They are normally required by law to pay the going price for the property.


It's the same deal with the grazing contract. Yes, they are required to renew every 10 years, BUT the renewal cannot be denied without a reason on the same par as condemning personal real estate. And if the lease in not renewed, the holders must be compensated for the loss.


The government has purchased many grazing leases from owners that have decided they'd rather have the money rather than a renewal.


I do know there are many private properties around that are in trust with the trustees in far flung places and cities. I do not know, but I'd wager that a great many of the AUMs purchased by the feds are from those type folks.


It's simply not enough to just quote a statistic about how many or what % decrease there have been in AUMs without examining the source and cause.


I was raised on a marginal 80 acre farm where we grew all of our food and sold enough milk and raised enough chickens to buy what cloths mom didn't make on a treadle sewing machine along with some flour and other supplies.


This is totally impossible to do today. And it's not the feds or any gov institution that is to blame. It's just........uh...........progress.


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## bsms

"It's simply not enough to just quote a statistic about how many or what % decrease there have been in AUMs without examining the source and cause."

If you want something broader than just "I saw this once", it is. It doesn't require a great deal of effort to force someone off a permit if they don't have the $$$ to fight. You can do what the government did to my friend and cut the numbers down to 10%. You can decide the area is needed for XXX habitat. That is how he lost another permit. That is why the Sage Grouse thing is being fought. If a species - and that definition is fluid - is "endangered" in an area, you can end grazing there. Or make it cost prohibitive.

That isn't "cut & paste", Hondo. That is a guy I went to college with 40 years ago telling me why he wants to get away from relying on government grazing permits - and he considers the BLM one to be the shadiest of the bunch. Another friend worked for state fish & game in an office shared with the USFS. We studied biology & NR together. He said I'd be shocked if I heard what the Forest Service people say behind closed doors. A gal I used to know spent a year working with the BLM in Utah. Her dad owned a few hundred head and an allotment. She left with a low opinion of the BLM. Her biggest peeve was the difficulty of getting the BLM out of their offices to go LOOK at a piece of land before making decisions!

Over 50% of the grazing allotments are gone. Forever. It is a ratchet. Lose a little here. Lose a little there. And the ratchet only works in one direction. Over 50% gone and the ratchet is still applying pressure.

I don't write with passion from statistics. I feel strongly because people I've known for decades have been squeezed by the ratchet.

PS: It has been a while, but I worked for both the USFS and the Utah Division of Wildlife in the 80s. There was a strong bias against grazing even then. One of my jobs was helping research that eventually showed grazing could be good for wildlife. It was NOT well received. It didn't support the narrative the government wanted.


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## boots

The thing that made me quit all govt leases was the Prebble Meadow Jumping Mouse. 

Somebody far away thought the country I had cows in might be habitat for this rare mouse. I liked leasing from various agencies. Really supported multiple use. 

But because someone thought my region might have this mouse, the regs were piled on. It didn't just affect livestock, but also wildlife and recreation. 

Suddenly there was a lot of traffic on my leases. Mostly college students gathering data. They harassed livestock and wildlife alike. Interrupted migration patterns. Bullied hikers. Messed with water that affected all.

And no consequences because "well, gathering data is important. There's bound to be conflict between them and wildlife." Funny. No one else disturbed the animals.

I used to follow the findings, but other things need my attention.

The silliest part? You can only identify this mouse by necropsy. After it dies. I don't know how many they killed trying to ID one. Never did. But the regs stand.

They wanted access to private ground but didn't get any. When asked I told them " No. You just keep killing America's mice and leave mine alone."


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## bsms

On the plus side:

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/meet-9402-blm-yearling-filly-808301/


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## boots

bsms said:


> On the plus side:
> 
> https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/meet-9402-blm-yearling-filly-808301/


I hope she does great with the filly.


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## Hondo

RE: and he considers the BLM one to be the shadiest of the bunch. 



Comment: Oh he does does he?


Look, I don't know you, I don't know your friend. But any rancher knows that there have been abuses to the land by grazing, serious abuses, for years and years. The range land is more than 50% depleted in many areas. You may not know this, but your friend does. Not saying he is one of the guilty one's, just saying there's a lot out there that are.


Then when the BLM tries to come in and stop the abuses people cry foul. I've been doing this for 40 or a 100 years and now the BLM is just after my AUMs. These are people who have gotten away with running double or more AUMs than what is allowed or payed for.


It is a fact that there have been many abuses by many ranchers. That is not a condemnation of ALL ranchers. But those that do abuse, throw a dark shadow over those that don't.


Are you going to claim that no rancher has ever ran more cows than allowed to the point of reducing available forage by 50% or more? If so, you need to spend more time on the range land.


I'd really like to hear @boots comments and take on what I'm saying. I know she has spent more time on the range than I have or ever will.


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## boots

I've seen people overgraze their own land way more often than public lands. And even abusing private ground happens less in the last 20-30 years.

Sure, some have tried to put more on than allowed. Then they have to move them around in smaller bunches to keep anyone who is knowledgeable from figuring out how many they are really running. Not just the BLM. We all know the AUMs for each area. It never pencils out for the crook. And sometimes it's a last ditch effort by someone who's already struggling to hang on. Desperate times and all that.

Most ranchers are farsighted. Meaning they think about 20 or 50 years down the road. It doesn't pay to cheat. There's no way to make a quick buck. And if one cheats on any lease they'd find it nearly impossible to lease from anyone else. Anything good anyway.

Most try to operate within the guidelines. And do! 

I feel for the BLM, honestly. Every interest group considers themselves the most important and the most right. But there groups lobbying for the horses are the biggest and best funded.

Years ago the horse groups wanted sagebrush gone. And there were studies done that said sagebrush was a sign of overgrazing by livestock. Recently that's done a 180 and now the BLM and other agencies have to get sagebrush to grow. Big grants going out for research and implementation.

The marketing done on behalf of the sagegrouse to reduce extractive industries on public lands has influenced this. While I'm not against oil and gas, I'd rather see horses and other wildlife without pumpjacks and pipeline shacks in the scenery, too.

Now college kids are out counting and measuring plants. Colleges are a great source of free labor. And with fewer areas open to livestock that required ranchers to work the range, new sources are needed.

Recreationists often volunteer in a small way, too


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## Hondo

RE: Every interest group considers themselves the most important and the most right.


Comment: This is so true. And can often be applied to individuals as well.


I will add that I'm not unaware of the lies and contrivances that the environmentalist are capable of. Before becoming "hooked on horses" at age 72, most of my recreational life was spent on motorized recreation where any plant or animal could be singled out as being damaged by the presence of motorized vehicles. Most of it was a lie, but to be honest, there were and still are many abuses by motorized recreation.


The riders that spent tons of money attending competitions and had their life wrapped up in off road did not abuse. But somehow those that did abuse became the face of off road.


Same with cattle. There are serious and knowledgeable ranchers around here that want their ranches to pass into the hands of their family in the best shape they can maintain it. But I can sure point out some others at the opposite end.


With the mountainous terrain around here with the dense coverage of cat's claw and mesquite, it's pretty hard to keep track of how many cows your neighbors are running. Probably not easy in WY but it should be a little easier.


An example of extremest not really knowing what they are doing sometimes happened on the ranch where I stayed a few years before I came.


They decided this one spring was a riparian area that needed protection from the cows and fenced it off to study it's recovery.


Well, about a year later a big flood came which happens every few years and wiped the entire area out. Still have to be careful riding around the area as there is still a lot of barbed wire partially buried and coming out of the ground unexpectedly.


They didn't even come back and clean it up. All under the auspices of the BLM. So the BLM is not faultless in all of it's various outposts but I do believe for the most part they do attempt to serve the public in ways that they should.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> RE: and he considers the BLM one to be the shadiest of the bunch. Comment: Oh he does does he?
> 
> Look, I don't know you, I don't know your friend. But any rancher knows that there have been abuses to the land by grazing, serious abuses, for years and years. The range land is more than 50% depleted in many areas. You may not know this, but your friend does....


Yes, he does. And as the "shadiest of the bunch" it means he'd prefer state land or USFS land for a grazing allotment over the BLM. Based on his experience using both. You don't have to like it, but he has grazed his animals on state, private, USFS and BLM land - and ranks the BLM last.

Have ranchers been known to abuse grazing permits? Of course. That has nothing to do with the discussion, other than emphasizing how important it is for government officials to get out from behind the desk and go look at individual allotments. And TREAT THEM as individuals instead of "I hate all ranchers".


> more than 50% depleted in many areas. You may not know this


Not where I live. And not on my friend's USFS allotment, which I've been visiting regularly for 40 years. The way you improve an allotment's carrying capacity is by tightly regulating the numbers during drought. THAT is when grazing can beat the land down so bad it takes decades to recover. Do that and the land improves.

The problem with mustangs is that they are not regulated and you cannot do squat if 2020 turns out to be a severe drought in that area. So they WILL beat the land down and the land will take many years to recover - even if you then removed all the mustangs, which never happens.

USFS land 10 miles south of me. Shod horses had worked cattle there within the last week. Not abused:








Unsupervised open range (very rarely used, but open range) about 1/2 mile from where I'm sitting:








USFS grazing allotment my friend has been using for years - and where I did vegetation surveys back in 1980:








Please spare me the superior attitude. I worked jobs in natural resources for a short time. Took some range management classes before $$$ forced me to look elsewhere. Know people who have spent their lives both as ranchers and know people who made a career as Forest Service/Fish & Game employees. And often hike on public land. As I have for decades. I'm not a city guy who 'just cuts & pastes' and who never sets foot on these lands.

Yes, there are ranchers who cheat. Punish the bad ones. But don't pretend the government agencies love to support grazing. They were largely anti-grazing in the early 80s and my friends on the inside say it got much worse in the decades that followed.

"_Most ranchers are farsighted. Meaning they think about 20 or 50 years down the road. It doesn't pay to cheat. There's no way to make a quick buck. And if one cheats on any lease they'd find it nearly impossible to lease from anyone else. Anything good anyway._" - boots


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## Hondo

Oh yeah? Well, in these parts EVERYONE would rather deal with the BLM rather than the USFS. Like I suggested, it's the local agency, not the institution.


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## WildAbtHorses

RE: Compensatory Reproduction - the textbooks are correct that there is compensatory reproduction, as man reduce the density of feral animals, their reproduction speeds up to compensate.

IMO wild horses should be managed in the wild by a team of experts that live within the herds. That there should be no more round-ups of wild horses and no more wild horses held in captivity. IMO this would be healthier for the horses, herds, the ecosystems, and the U.S. taxpayers.

"Adopt a Horse has been a Fascinating Lesson in Biology" by Jay Kirkpatrick, Ph.D. Reproductive Physiology Cornell

"As you reduce the density of ungulates, reproduction becomes more efficient. Animals breed at a younger age, and they bred more often, and the survival of the younger is greater than it was before. As we gather these horses and then gather all the young, it is like throwing an on-switch for those mares that we turn back on the range. They are now going to come into estrus, and they are going to bred and bred successfully. And 'Adopt a Horses' has done nothing else except cost the taxpayers an immense amount of money and has proven the textbooks right there is compensatory reproduction, and as you reduce the density, the reproduction speeds up."
24:18 - 25:05 youtu.be/m9jeqU-xPFQ

El Caballo = horse.
Ungulate = a hoofed mammal.
Estrus = fertility in many female mammals; heat.


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## Hondo

The mustangs are known to travel 10-20 miles each day in search of forage and water. I've not read what the outer limits of their travels are. What would you propose for the living and travel arrangements for the team considering that much of the habitat can be very extreme?


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## WildAbtHorses

^ Love camping, backpacking, be able to ride a horse, and travel lite.

Gotta love the outdoors and be self-sufficient.

I’d sign up! Love a good challenge!

Big Smiley!!!


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## Hondo

Hmmm, take off 30-40 years and I might go for that. Sub-zero camping with horses might be a challenge, but there are those that do.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ LOL Yes, last night I was thinking how much I love my comfy bed. I'm sure there are plenty of 20 year olds that would love the opportunity if they knew it existed.

IMO The problem is that most Americans do not understand that we own these horses, and they are our responsibilities, and we are not taking care of them as we should.

Caveat: That is the Americans that know and acknowledge that we have 50,000 wild horses in captivity and overpopulated wild herds.


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## Hondo

I was thinking about this. Sounds like a wild and crazy idea at first but:..............


On the ranch where I stayed, I set up a camp complete with all the necessities about 6.5 miles from the ranch house and located near a small stream.


There were several cows that lounged in the general area during the afternoon after they had finished grazing the hillsides. These cows were not particularly real wild, but they were not gentle either.


When Hondo and I and my dog would ride anywhere near them, they would get up and take off to other parts. But after a week or two of us not bothering them and just riding on past, most of the cows would remain laying down. They got used to us.


It would be interesting to know how a wild herd of horses would react to daily interactions with a horse and rider. I'm sure it's been done. With the curiosity of horses, it just might be possible. But it would take an individual that scorned comfy beds.


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## WildAbtHorses

received this e-mail in response to Compensatory Reproduction & Managing Wild Horses in the Wild

"For sure, BLM's rather "robust" reproduction statistics are influenced by the drastic "trap and toss" management practices. Such an approach is not how natural forces operate to maintain ecological balance.

Not saying that herds limited to confined areas and resources don't require some form of proactive management. Just saying that the current paradigm is unsustainable." -W.


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## WildAbtHorses

I would be curious to have current pictures of the same spot today to compare the landscape, especially the grasses and shrubs. If he is correct on the numbers, it sounds like the wild horses on average increase by 1,000 each year?

Wild Horses of Northern Nevada - Living Legend of the Old West July 2013 (5-minute video). The elk are beautiful too but a bit blurry?


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## WildAbtHorses

Rounding up Wild Horses in Galicia (5-minute video on wild horse round up and festival):

https://www.dw.com/en/rounding-up-wild-horses-in-galicia/av-49896190

Every summer, the Rapas das Bestas, or "sheering of the beasts", is celebrated in Galicia. Wild Horses in Spain's mountainous Northwest are rounded up.


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## WildAbtHorses

Germany’s wild horses
Thousands of people have flocked to the northeastern German city of Dülmen for an annual equine spectacle: wild horse wrangling, German-style.
https://www.dw.com/en/wild-horses-wrangled-in-germany-then-auctioned-off/a-43946051


Running with France's wild horses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camargue


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## Knave

So, I haven’t been keeping up with the thread for the most part. I see we usually lay on very different sides of the fence.

However, today I was out hunting with my husband and oldest girl. A herd of horses was coming our way and we hunkered down. They didn’t see us and I videoed them pass. I thought I’d give you guys a couple pictures.

Our allotment (where we run our cattle) is where we were hunting. There hasn’t been traditionally a big horse problem there, although they seem to be building over the last couple years. The grazing is good and they looked healthy. I thought happy horses might give you a smile.


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## Hondo

I like those traditions on the other side of the pond. Very cool.


Something about happy horses always brings me a smile.


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## WildAbtHorses

Such a happy story...

The Wild Horses that are Rewilding Britain





Konica pony U.K. and Amsterdam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konik

Until I looked for an update on the Amsterdam Oostvaardersplassen’s herd of Konica and I found a very, very sad 2018 update. Lesson Learned… after years of prosperity and only one year of draught. Very, very sad.


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## WildAbtHorses

FYI post 444 has all the links.

This little book on wild horses should have all the links
and they should work, sorry about the email with non-working links.

https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7


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## Hondo

Found this article interesting. Had no idea that donkeys could dig a well 5 feet deep. Interesting that in areas where they were entirely removed, the ecosystems that relied on the wells died out as the wells slowly filled back.


https://undark.org/article/death-valley-burros-fate/?utm_source=pocket-newtab


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## WildAbtHorses

^ fascinating! Thanks Hondo!


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## WildAbtHorses

How do we allow this to happen?

"The United States Department of Agriculture’s Wildlife Services accounts for over 76,000 of the estimated 500,000 coyotes that are killed each year. As shown below, most are killed for sport or fun. Many states allow unlimited killing of coyotes"

» Coyote


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## WildAbtHorses

We must implement humane practices. Is there a way to control human populations and man's use of all available land?

coyotes like wild horses...

Compensatory Reproduction - the textbooks are correct that there is compensatory reproduction, as man reduce the density of feral animals, their reproduction speeds up to compensate.

Re: Adopt a Horse has been a Fascinating Lesson in Biology
by Jay Kirkpatrick, P.h.D. Wild Life Biologist

"As you reduce the density of ungulates, reproduction becomes more efficient. Animals breed at a younger age, and they bred more often, and the survival of the younger is greater than it was before. As we gather these horses and then gather all the young, it is like throwing an on-switch for those mares that we turn back on the range. They are now going to come into estrus, and they are going to bred and bred successfully. And 'Adopt a Horses' has done nothing else except cost the taxpayers an immense amount of money and has proven the textbooks right there is compensatory reproduction, and as you reduce the density, the reproduction speeds up."
24:18 - 25:05 youtu.be/m9jeqU-xPFQ


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## Hondo

Faster and younger breeding was not enough to maintain the buffalo population. 



Many people view coyotes and jack rabbits the same as many view a mouse or rat in the cupboard.


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## mred

You should live somewhere with a lot of coyotes. They kill cats, dogs and anything they can eat. They are not that afraid of people and will come into town night and sometimes day. The family has 400 acres and the coyotes came in. Killed all of the quail, turkey and rabbit. We killed a few, a few got hit on the highway. We don't see as many today but still more than 40 years ago. We have rabbits and turkey coming back into the area. I don't hunt, but I had rather see the rabbits and turkey than the coyotes. You can have them at your house, I don't want them at mine.


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## WildAbtHorses

Seems like it should be law “if you kill an animal you must use or donate its meat and skin” -such a waste to kill and not use... remember all those wasted American Buffalo? I do wonder why the buffalo weren’t able to reproduce like the horses and coyotes. Too big? Too out in the open?


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## SilverMaple

The buffalo were hunted to extinction. Key in this is how buffalo react to a threat. I saw this first-hand when I worked on a ranch that also had bison. One young bull had become a menace, to the point where going within a half mile of him would have him charging the pickup. The ranch owner went out with a long-range rifle, and waited until the bull got within range, then shot. The bull went down with that first shot. The other bison around him looked around, then went back to grazing, if they even noticed at all. We could have stood there and picked off the entire herd one by one. Horses, coyotes, deer, elk, or other prey animals will scatter and run if one goes down, bison usually will not. This simple fact is how they were so easily and quickly slaughtered in the tens of millions in a few short years. Bison require such a large range and so much feed that their reproduction rates simply couldn't keep up. Supply them with ample feed and room and they reproduce rather reliably.


Coyotes, in most areas, are pests and are viewed as vermin. I don't mind hearing them yipping in the river bottoms, but if they start prowling around and hunting pets, chickens, calves, foals, etc. they will end up shot in our part of the world. You never used to see them, now it's rather common to see one that has been hit on the side of the road or notice one or two loping through a pasture or field. They are around, even in urban areas, and are so adaptable that in some instances, they've become nocturnal even though they generally aren't. 

A neighbor a few miles from where I keep my horses found the carcass of a missing calf 20 feet off the ground in a tree.... that's a cougar, even though the DNR swears they don't exist here. The cougar will end up shot if anyone gets the chance...


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## mred

The state wildlife in Alabama says that there are no cougars here. Two years ago a night watchman at a lumber yard saw one. He reported it and they found tracks in the mud. Paper showed pictures of the tracks. But state said that for it to be a confirmed sighting, there had to be two people to see it. So, per the state, we still have no cougars in Alabama. My wife and I have both seen one.


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## SilverMaple

I've seen at least three in northwest Iowa. I've seen tracks several times, too. They still tell me they don't exist. "It was probably a deer." 

Deer don't have long tails, nor do they leave big pawprints with no nail marks. I lived in Montana several years. I know what a cougar looks like, and I know what deer, lynx, coyotes, and housecats look like, too. 

A local man had one of his horses clawed up by a cougar a couple of years ago-- he heard a racket in the barn, went out, and found his 4 y.o. stud horse frantic in his pen streaming blood, with cat tracks all around in the mud. The mares and foals in with him were huddled in the back of the shed, afraid but unhurt. The stallion had big, raking claw marks on the shoulders and flanks. The DNR guy got there at the same time as the vet. DNR said it must be coyotes or dogs. The vet rolled his eyes and said no way that was dogs or coyotes, and if it wasn't a cougar, he didn't want to meet the housecat that did that damage... it had to be a good-sized cougar to even bother with a mature stallion, but the stud was likely protecting the mares and foals and took the brunt of the attack. 

The horse recovered, but never tolerated anyone on his back again, and with good reason. He threw some really nice foals, and they lost him a few months ago to a lightning strike.


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## mred

hard to like the end of that story.


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## WildAbtHorses

The Lion Whisper’s Thor lion died by a lightening strike. Who knew lightening killed so many. Scary and very sad.

SilverMaple you must write a book! Please. You have so many great stories that need to be shared with a larger audience. IMO.


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## Hondo

I am very ambivalent about coyotes. I like them. I think they are, ummm, pretty. But fact is, anywhere out West if you have a small dog, better keep them in at night. And that's not to say they won't get grabbed in broad daylight.


And ranchers do loose baby calves to coyotes. So what city or suburban dwellers need to seriously ask themselves is: "How many paychecks would I be willing to loose to coyotes before I began thinking about putting a stop to it."


That's basically where it is with the ranchers. Yes, the coyotes were here first. Nearly everything was here before us. We really need to walk a mile, or two, in someone else's shoes before we decide what they should do.


A person needs to think about how many of their own paychecks they would give up to save coyotes because that's exactly where it's at with the ranchers.


That said, I have never killed or shot at a coyote although I've had many chances. I doubt I would unless one was attacking one of my animals.


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## WildAbtHorses

A beautiful old tree with a hawk's nest was removed because the woman was afraid the hawk would eat her pet rabbit that she lets loose under the tree.

People save domestic cats just to let them roam loose catching birds.

If the ranchers allowed the coyotes an animal or two, the coyote populations might stabilize, and the coyotes would likely stay away from domestic animals?

You Westerns keep crying about wild animals, but isn't that why you live where you live?

I'm just saying that if we kill all of the wild because we fear for our domestics, is that the future we want for the planet? Only domestic and all wild living in rescues and sanctuaries.

You're right; I do not make my living off the land, and I do not live in a rural area surrounded by wild animals. Hard to say what I would do or how I would feel.


----------



## Hondo

When wolves were reintroduced at various locations, the ranchers were compensated financially for livestock confirmed to be killed by wolves.


So who do you suggest would pay for the livestock killed by coyotes if protected?


RE: You Westerns keep crying about wild animals, but isn't that why you live where you live?


Comment: First, with the mobility that now exists in the US, I'm not convinced Westerner is any longer a valid term with meaning if it ever was. Second, most people living generally in the West, or anywhere in the US for that matter are in cities far removed from wild animals.


I suspect your intent was to address those preferring and living in rural areas. There are a lot of those in the Eastern US but possibly more in the Western US. 



In either case, from my perspective I see two types of rural residents. Those who make their living, or part of it, off the land and those who prefer the rural social life that exists in less dense population areas.


Neither category prefers necessarily being around wild animals, although some may enjoy them as I do. But I consider myself in the minority.


And finally, most "Predator Hunters" are weekend warriors out of the city looking to enjoy their particular sense of fun in the country. They have quads and dress up in fancy hunting attire with various high end electronic gadgets including night vision binoculars to lay siege to coyotes and other unprotected predators including the jackrabbit which is left dead where they are shot. Ironically, that is often food for the continued survival of coyotes.


End of early morning ramblings...........


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## mred

A lot of animals and things were not here before man. Including the horse and the wild pig. Along with kudzu, the large snakes in Florida, the honey bee, no telling how many bugs, viruses, etc. I am not including the horse or bees, but most of these things we would better for not being here.


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## SilverMaple

WildAbtHorses said:


> SilverMaple you must write a book! Please. You have so many great stories that need to be shared with a larger audience. IMO.


I hope to someday! Just have to find the time... between my stories and my dad's, we have the base material for lots of stuff... 

It was a sad day when I heard their stallion had been killed. He was nice. I was hoping to get a mare to cross on him, but alas... the same place lost a draft team about 10 years ago to lightning, too-- they were standing inside their run-in when it was struck. Unfortunately, it's pretty common around here to lose livestock that way. We get a lot of severe weather. I worry about my horses every storm, as does anyone with horses, cattle, etc. My mom nearly got struck-- she went out before a storm a couple of years ago to put her car in the garage, and was just opening the car door to get out when "Boom!" a bolt of lightning struck the tree next to the driveway about 20 feet from her, blowing wood and bark and branches everywhere like a bomb. The concussion and debris shattered the windows on the front side of the house, and the back window on her car. Thankfully she was still inside the garage and the car took the brunt of the flying shrapnel and she wasn't hurt. Had she been a few steps farther out, she would have been hit by debris or struck, too. She was pretty shaken up and couldn't hear well for a few days, but thankfully wasn't hurt. Why that tree, we don't know. It wasn't the tallest by any means, and the storm was still quite a ways off, but that doesn't mean lightning is.


----------



## COWCHICK77

WildAbtHorses said:


> A beautiful old tree with a hawk's nest was removed because the woman was afraid the hawk would eat her pet rabbit that she lets loose under the tree.
> 
> People save domestic cats just to let them roam loose catching birds.
> 
> If the ranchers allowed the coyotes an animal or two, the coyote populations might stabilize, and the coyotes would likely stay away from domestic animals?
> 
> You Westerns keep crying about wild animals, but isn't that why you live where you live?
> 
> I'm just saying that if we kill all of the wild because we fear for our domestics, is that the future we want for the planet? Only domestic and all wild living in rescues and sanctuaries.
> 
> You're right; I do not make my living off the land, and I do not live in a rural area surrounded by wild animals. Hard to say what I would do or how I would feel.



I'm not sure why this is so hard to get across.

_Whether it be wild horses, coyotes or mountain lions, it is NOT about eradicating the entire population. It is about maintaining balance in numbers._

We live in an area where there isn't a huge bear population that would keep the coyote population in check, the numbers get out of control. Hunting coyotes which is not regulated here in NV(unless trapping or selling pelts) helps maintain the numbers as they prey on the deer, elk and sage grouse which are protected.


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## SilverMaple

I have no issue with wildlife in our rural area-- but there does need to be a balance. There are a lot more predators and native species than there used to be-- when my mom was a kid, the coyotes, foxes, bobcats, martin, woodchucks, rabbits, badgers, and raccoons and most of the native game birds like grouse and pheasant had been basically eradicated in the name of trapping for money/furs/subsistence hunting and keeping domestic animals safe. It was very common, even when I was a kid, to find a trap along a roadside ditch, or to hear of someone's farm dog accidentally poisoned by coyote bait. That doesn't happen much anymore. All of those animals now live here again, and for the most part, they are left alone unless they prove a nuisance or start to continually cause problems with livestock/pets. When that happens, the offending animal is usually dispatched. Right now, our biggest nuisance animals are white-tailed deer and cottontail rabbits. Many areas are completely overrun, with the lack of large predators often to blame, and, I suspect, part of the reasons mountain lions/cougar are moving back into some areas where they haven't been seen for 100+ years. The hard winters are cutting down on the rabbits rurally, but they are a huge issue in towns. Hawks, eagles, owls, and other birds of prey are also much more common than they used to be.


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## bsms

No one is trying or COULD kill all the coyotes. Ranchers expect some coyote losses. Back in the 80s I read a study looking at predator losses. It concluded AVERAGE losses were negligible, but SOME places had severe losses. When that happens, losses can cause someone to go under.

There are a lot of techniques for dealing with predators. Killing them isn't high on the list. 

BTW - Bison were killed in the millions.










https://truewestmagazine.com/on-the-trail-of-the-buffalo-hunters/

https://www.historynet.com/skin-bones-plains-buffalo-trades-flourished.htm

"Cody had joined the Cavalry at 17, and he earned the name “Buffalo Bill” because in one 18-month stretch he claimed to have killed 4,280 buffalo. In 1870, a bull hide sold for $3.50. One frontiersman, Frank Mayer, figured if he spent 25 cents on each round of ammo, then “every time I fired one I got my investment back twelve times over.” 

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/05/the-buffalo-killers/482349/

"Hunters began killing buffalo by the hundreds of thousands in the winter months. One hunter, Orlando Brown brought down nearly 6,000 buffalo by himself and lost hearing in one ear from the constant firing of his .50 caliber rifle. The Texas legislature, sensing the buffalo were in danger of being wiped out, proposed a bill to protect the species. General Sheridan opposed it, stating, ”These men have done more in the last two years, and will do more in the next year, to settle the vexed Indian question, than the entire regular army has done in the last forty years. *They are destroying the Indians’ commissary. And it is a well known fact that an army losing its base of supplies is placed at a great disadvantage. Send them powder and lead, if you will; but for a lasting peace, let them kill, skin and sell until the buffaloes are exterminated. Then your prairies can be covered with speckled cattle.*”

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/where-the-buffalo-no-longer-roamed-3067904/

Not exactly a shining moment in US history.


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## Hondo

Question just occurred to me. Have not read where it was discussed. If the theory that the horse, mammoth, sabre toothed tiger, and other large mammals disappeared as a result of hunting by the new human arrivals, and since buffalo are so docile about their fellows being killed, then why weren't he buffalo hunted to extinction??


----------



## LoriF

WildAbtHorses said:


> A beautiful old tree with a hawk's nest was removed because the woman was afraid the hawk would eat her pet rabbit that she lets loose under the tree.
> 
> People save domestic cats just to let them roam loose catching birds.
> 
> If the ranchers allowed the coyotes an animal or two, the coyote populations might stabilize, and the coyotes would likely stay away from domestic animals?
> 
> You Westerns keep crying about wild animals, but isn't that why you live where you live?
> 
> I'm just saying that if we kill all of the wild because we fear for our domestics, is that the future we want for the planet? Only domestic and all wild living in rescues and sanctuaries.
> 
> You're right; I do not make my living off the land, and I do not live in a rural area surrounded by wild animals. Hard to say what I would do or how I would feel.


I know what I would do or I should say wouldn't do. That is try to make a living by destroying the natural habitat. I'm sure the loggers in the south didn't want to give up their paychecks either from cutting all of the huge ancient cypress trees. There are none (and I mean none) of those giants left. So I guess they eventually had to figure out another way for a paycheck anyway didn't they? So how many hundreds of years before we have those giants back? Many. Once an animal is completely gone, it's too late. Bye Bye black rhino, we shall never see you again. Why, because of many someone's paycheck.


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## WildAbtHorses

It sounds like everything is off balance. How do we humans humanely take the place of the lack of large predators? Keeping in mind, 'compensatory reproduction' and avoiding the "trap and toss" mentality and practice.

Podcast!?! How about "SilverMaple & Dad" podcast with special guests like Hondo, bsms, boots, CowChick, Knave, GottaTrot, Knave, mred, etc.?

Yikes, rural rabbits invading towns, Buffalo Bill killing all those buffalos (how did I not know that), greed and making a living off the lives of dead wild animals (I heard African wild animals only have 40 more years), invasive kudzu, Spotted Lanternfly, and Weekend Hunters Dressed up to the Nines. A very confusing world.

PS my intention was to get your goat (smiley)... enjoy your posts


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## WildAbtHorses

SilverMaple & Dad:
https://spark.adobe.com/post/SxHTgc955EGf5/

Setting up a home podcast studio for two:
https://www.podcastinsights.com/podcast-equipment/

There are several podcast studios in the state of Nevada and charge from $200-$500 up to like $30,000.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Stalemate: Congress, Advocates, Conservationists, Ranchers & BLM*

Washington Post 2019 Article (a repost to HorseForum since BLM mtg is next week):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/scie...-now-foes-say-they-have-solution/?arc404=true

“PATH FORWARD FOR MANAGEMENT” proposal:
https://www.energy.senate.gov/publi...?File_id=0869B02B-E9C5-4F0B-9AE8-9A8A1C85293E

(1) Relocate removed wild horses and burros to more cost-effective pasture facilities,
(2) Contract with private parties to secure lower-cost leasing of land for long-term humane care of removed horses and burros,
(3) Apply proven, safe and humane population growth suppression strategies to every herd that can be reached utilizing trained volunteers, Agency staff, and animal health professionals, as individual HMAs dictate to prevent repeated gathers and
(4) Promote adoptions in order to reduce captive populations and costs. 

“According to the National Academy of Sciences, removal of excess horses alone can actually facilitate a higher growth rate in wild herds due to decreased competition for forage. This means that the BLM’s current management techniques are likely increasing population growth rates. Equine herds typically grow approximately 15%–20% per year, but studies have shown that growth rates are higher in herds where removals have been conducted.”


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## boots

WildAbtHorses said:


> “According to the National Academy of Sciences, removal of excess horses alone can actually facilitate a higher growth rate in wild herds due to decreased competition for forage. This means that the BLM’s current management techniques are likely increasing population growth rates. Equine herds typically grow approximately 15%–20% per year, but studies have shown that growth rates are higher in herds where removals have been conducted.”


Absolutely. But what do people suggest the BLM do?

The alternative to managing the herds as they do now, it to let nature thin the herds. That sounds okay, but I seriously doubt even those who promote the idea would have the capacity to tolerate watching the slow, miserable death that would cause.

But then, the loudest voices, and the biggest money, don't live where they would see the suffering.


----------



## Hondo

boots said:


> Absolutely. But what do people suggest the BLM do?



Check out the .gov post she posted above. Sounds like there might be some movement actually started.


https://www.energy.senate.gov/publi...?File_id=0869B02B-E9C5-4F0B-9AE8-9A8A1C85293E


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## boots

Hondo said:


> Check out the .gov post she posted above. Sounds like there might be some movement actually started.
> 
> 
> https://www.energy.senate.gov/publi...?File_id=0869B02B-E9C5-4F0B-9AE8-9A8A1C85293E


The horses, wildlife, and those who care for the land, can only hope. 

The BLM has tried to implement some of the proposed strategies only to end up in court.


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## LoriF

boots said:


> Absolutely. But what do people suggest the BLM do?
> 
> The alternative to managing the herds as they do now, it to let nature thin the herds. That sounds okay, but I seriously doubt even those who promote the idea would have the capacity to tolerate watching the slow, miserable death that would cause.
> 
> But then, the loudest voices, and the biggest money, don't live where they would see the suffering.


I don't really see where it makes a difference as to whether you see suffering or not. Nature is nature. I don't really see too many worrying as to whether the deer, antelope, bison, and anything else gets culled by nature. As long as horses keep getting removed from the range along with the predators. That just keeps telling nature that there is room for more.

I am all for leaving things alone and let nature take care of itself without human intervention. That means no killing of anything. Prey or predator. I don't really care whether predators get the imports that were not there without humans bringing them there. If the losses get to be too much then ranch somewhere else or don't ranch at all. The ecosystem in these areas is fragile enough as it is without humans, in all of out infinite wisdom, screwing with it more. My thoughts also go to all of the other endeavors that our corrupt government wants to sell out to. Bottom line is this land that people like to call government land is ours. Every single person who pays taxes in this country is the owner of this land. People forget that the government is not King, the government is ours.

I don't really see where we can share this land with wild animals without screwing it up for them. Everyone thinks that their endeavor is the most special and most important. So it's either one or the other. Leave them totally alone or go with all of the other uses for it and shut up about it. 

I really feel like we have sucked up enough space in this world. We should leave the little pockets that are left alone.


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## boots

@LoriF - You are in a minority in your willingness to let nature manage wildlife numbers. 

I'm not completely there, myself. I don't grumble as loudly as some when hundreds of deer are on my hay meadows in the fall before storms arrive. They aren't *my* deer. They are all of our deer. But, even in that small way, I'm impacting deer populations and migration.

I can't honestly think of any place that humans haven't impacted nature. Or that nature hasn't impacted human life. No where. No where on earth.


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## COWCHICK77

LoriF said:


> I don't really see where it makes a difference as to whether you see suffering or not. Nature is nature. I don't really see too many worrying as to whether the deer, antelope, bison, and anything else gets culled by nature. As long as horses keep getting removed from the range along with the predators. That just keeps telling nature that there is room for more.


While I agree nature is nature, I disagree people don't care about other wildlife being culled by nature. I don't and don't know anyone who likes to see any animal like deer starving or suffering from a disease like Bluetongue or Wasting. 
Like I last posted, the coyote population is so large it affects the deer and grouse populations hence you don't even need a hunting license to shoot one. Is that not caring about the welfare of deer and grouse?




> I don't really see where we can share this land with wild animals without screwing it up for them. Everyone thinks that their endeavor is the most special and most important. So it's either one or the other. Leave them totally alone or go with all of the other uses for it and shut up about it.
> 
> I really feel like we have sucked up enough space in this world. We should leave the little pockets that are left alone.


We as humans are here and we have to do the best we can to maintain balance and figure out living together, as we have already affected nature. I don't think it's fair to both animals(wild and domesticated) or us to throw our hands up in the air and walk away telling nature to fix itself.


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## WildAbtHorses

I'm just trying to figure out who is doing what and any updates on the horses.

Wild Horses and Burros Long-Term Management Options for the Bureau of Land Management's Wild Horse and Burro Program July 16, 2019
https://www.doi.gov/ocl/wild-horses-and-burros-0
BLM Efforts to Achieve Long-Term Solutions
NOTE: Steve Tryon has accepted another position within the BLM so he does not have to relocate out of Washington, D.C.
“The BLM is taking steps toward longer-term solutions by increasing removals to achieve AML; moving forward with a population growth-suppression strategy; and working to increase placement of horses and burros into good homes through training and incentives.”

“The BLM anticipates removing up to approximately 9,000 wild horses and burros from overpopulated herds on public rangelands in FY 2019 and early FY 2020 as part of our efforts to maintain healthy wild horses and burros on healthy public rangelands. In FY 2018, the BLM gathered and removed over 11,400 animals. As of March 2019, the BLM has removed 2,447 wild horses and burros.”

Inside the Trump Administration’s Chaotic Dismantling of the Federal Land Agency
Internal records from the Bureau of Land Management contradict what its chief told Congress about a plan to ship 200 D.C.-based career staff out West. The plan would weaken the agency, which stands between federal lands and oil, gas and mineral companies.
by Mike Spies and J. David McSwane Sept. 20, 2019
https://www.propublica.org/article/...haotic-dismantling-of-the-federal-land-agency

The William Perry Pendley Rehabilitation Tour: Climate Change, Wild Horses, and Ethics Recusals October 21, 2019
https://www.desmogblog.com/2019/10/21/william-perry-pendley-sej-climate-change-blm-ethics-recusals

THE PATH FORWARD FOR MANAGEMENT OF BLM’S WILD HORSES & BURROS Sept 2019
NOTE: I don’t see BLM representation on this proposal
“According to the National Academy of Sciences, removal of excess horses alone can actually facilitate a higher growth rate in wild herds due to decreased competition for forage. This means that the BLM’s current management techniques are likely increasing population growth rates. Equine herds typically grow approximately 15%–20% per year, but studies have shown that growth rates are higher in herds where removals have been conducted.”
https://www.energy.senate.gov/publi...?File_id=0869B02B-E9C5-4F0B-9AE8-9A8A1C85293E

The Washington Post Sept 2019 article (again, for reference)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/scie...-now-foes-say-they-have-solution/?arc404=true

J.J.Goicoechea profile:
https://publiclandscouncil.org/2015/11/02/rancher-profile-jj-goicoechea/


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## boots

We see an increase in the size of litters in coyotes when there is a reduction in population in a range area. Whether the reduction comes from increased predation (trapping, snaring, wolves, shooting) of animals or disease (most often mange or distemper). 

And migrating ungulates (deer, elk, etc.) definitely fill in, and repopulate, areas that were hunted heavily or had herd reductions by disease. 

Makes sense, doesn't it?


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## WildAbtHorses

Wild horses facing slaughter after US government proposes new regulations
By GLORIA RIVIERA, SHANNON CRAWFORD, JAKE LEFFERMAN AND LAUREN EFFRON Jan 23, 2018.

After the wild horses are rounded up, Schnepel said some will go in the "adoption circuit" where they are domesticated as pets or work horses. "[But] typically," Schnepel said. "They’ll get put into a long-term holding and that means they get shipped to the Midwest. BLM has contracts with ranchers back there that pays them so much per day to keep the horses."

There are over 45,000 wild horses currently in holding areas, costing taxpayers about $50 million annually. It's an expense that the U.S. Department of Interior sought to address in its 2018 budget by lifting regulations that prevent slaughtering wild horses.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wild-hors...rnment-proposes-regulations/story?id=52538898

Reminder: Next week is the BLM Wild Horses & Burros Advisory Meeting in D.C. -is it time to speak up?
https://www.blm.gov/press-release/national-wild-horse-and-burro-advisory-board-meet-washington-dc


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## WildAbtHorses

What am I missing? They ride out, select several wild horses, and bring them quietly home to tame?!?

Wild Patagonian Horse Is Masterfully Tamed | Wild Patagonia | BBC Earth


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## boots

They also eat the culls. Only better conformed horses get to reproduce. And numbers are kept down. 


Looks like the Patagonian horses (who are also feral) are going to eventually face the same dilemmas the US feral horses do.

https://thehorse.com/113833/protecting-wild-horses-in-patagonia-chile/

The article states hunting was ended in 2014. I'm a bit doubtful of that. As I am that the horses were/are in danger of extinction.


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## boots

@WildAbtHorses - You might enjoy another success story from southeast Wyoming. And look up Mantle Ranches in Chugwater, Wyoming. Steve and his sons have been re-homing BLM horses for years and years.

https://www.wyomingbusinessreport.c...cle_c4b5edee-f739-11e9-b434-6f7f0f501eba.html

And I almost forgot Tom Hagwood of Torrington, Wyoming, also in the southeast part of the state. He's won the Mustang Million, or whatever that is, more than once. He has videos on youtube.


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## WildAbtHorses

Just heard about...


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## Hondo

Not too shabby for an $80 kill pen horse!


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## WildAbtHorses

Thanks! I enjoyed the "Women Work to Train Wild Horses" article by Andrew D. Brosig Torrington Telegram Via Wyoming News Exchange

And loved the comment, “They’re kind of like potato chips – you can’t have just one,” Stephanie [Goulart] said. “The cheapest part of owning a horse is the purchase price.”

And found this comment very interesting, "They have some strong, personal opinions about the future of the wild mustangs they love under the control of the Bureau of Land Management, believing in many cases, the private sector would be better equipped to ensure the future survival of those wild herds."

FYI article posted:
https://www.wyomingbusinessreport.c...cle_c4b5edee-f739-11e9-b434-6f7f0f501eba.html
https://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/news/wyoming/article_433f2fb9-cd4b-5ea3-bfd3-485e994b7133.html

As for Snowman - what a story... what a horse!!! FYI Breyer's offers a $45 model:
https://www.breyerhorses.com/products/snowman?_pos=1&_sid=b4ce938ad&_ss=r


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## Hondo

FWIW, the training method an philosophy used by the women with mustangs is very controversial. But that's another thread and there have already been many.


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## WildAbtHorses

Hi. Any updates on the BLM meeting? Been out all day. Just saw this:


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## WildAbtHorses

*BLM Wild Horses & Burro Advisory Meeting - today*

The public meeting will be live-streamed from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. Eastern time October 30-31 at www.blm.gov/live.

https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/get-involved/advisory-board

Meeting Agenda:
1 Rules of the Room
2 Draft Meeting Minutes from Boise Meeting for Approval Day One | Day Two
3 Response to Recommendations
4 Off-Range Highlights
5 Completed FY2019 Gathers
6 Tentative Fall FY2020 Gathers
7 Herd Management Area and Herd Area Statistics

Presentations:
1 BLM Eastern States Wild Horse and Burro Program
2 BLM*National*Wild Horse and Burro Program Update
3 US Forest Service Wild Horse and Burro Program Update
4 Wild Horse and Burro Marketing
5 Online Corral
6 Wild Horse and Burro Program System

To view past video records of meetings that took place between 2011 and the present, visit @BLMNational YouTube


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## WildAbtHorses

The American public is speaking up today at the BLM WH&B Advisory meeting -it’s great!
https://www.blm.gov/live


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## WildAbtHorses

BLM’s WH & Burro online event: October 29 - November 5. https://wildhorsesonline.blm.gov/Animals

National Wild Horse & Burro Advisory Board Recommendations October 31, 2019:
Board Members: Ms. Susan McAlpine, Dr. Sue McDonnell, Dr. Barry Perryman, Ms. Celeste Carlisle, Mr. Fred Woehl, Jr., Dr. Tom Lenz, Mr. Jim French, Mr. Steven Yardley, and Dr. Vernon Bleich

1. The Advisory Board recognizes the value of and supports ongoing research and funding of humane long-term fertility control and permanent sterilization as viable tools in our quest to achieve a thriving ecological balance by achieving and maintaining AML.  Approved. Eight in favor, one abstain, Ms. Carlisle  

2. The Advisory Board supports and endorses the AAEP and AVMA policy statement dated October 28, 2019 and recommends that the BLM and USDA Forest Service implement the strategies therein to the extent allowed by law. 
Approved. 7 in favor, 2 opposed, Dr. Perryman and Ms. Carlisle
AAEP = American Association of Equine Practitioners
AVMA = The American Veterinary Medical Association

3. The Advisory Board strongly encourages USDA Forest Service and BLM meet with relevant Tribal authorities and Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) where there are BLM/USDA Forest Service wild horse and burro management challenges. Approved. Vote was unanimous.

4.The Advisory Board recommends that BLM continue to implement the Comprehensive Animal Welfare Program as planned, including
(1) filling the national Comprehensive Animal Welfare Program (CAWP) coordinator position,
(2) implementing the training necessary to move forward with animal welfare audits for gathers and for all off-range care and handling.
We also encourage expansion of the Program to include animals on-range as well as in off-range pastures.
Approved. Vote was unanimous.  

5.The Advisory Board encourages BLM to continue and expand HMA population surveys and the collection of population baseline data. Approved. Vote was unanimous.

https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/wildhorse_advbrd_2019DCmeeting_draft recommendations.pdf

What about a thorough discussion of compensatory reproduction? The textbooks are correct that there is compensatory reproduction, as man reduce the density of feral animals, their reproduction speeds up to compensate.


----------



## Hondo

I did happen to be able to watch the discussion on population control and the subsequent vote, and modification of the terminology.


I got the idea that the efforts would be a "try and see" with monitored results. 



If 100% of the mares were darted, compensatory reproduction obviously could not keep up. So my thoughts are that the program would focus on stabilizing the herd size without necessarily directly addressing how much of the reproductive control was due to the tendency for compensatory reproduction.


Those are just my thoughts at the moment.


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## WildAbtHorses

Yes, "try and see" for another 25 years? If darting as many mares each year could be done, to me, that would control the population and help to stabilize the herd sizes without, or at least, with fewer removals.

Did The Science and Conservation Center attend and speak at the BLM WH&B meeting?
https://www.sccpzp.org

Here is an article by Jay Kirkpatrick and Priscilla Cohn
History of the Science of Wldlife Fertility Control: Reflections of a 25-Year International Conference Series*·*January 2015

The science of wildlife fertility control originated in the mid-twentieth century, out of a growing need for alternatives to lethal controls for selected wildlife populations, where traditional lethal controls were no longer legal, wise, safe or publicly acceptable. Until late in the century the science was uncoordinated and without significant funding or cooperation among investigators. A 25-year conference series brought scientists engaged in this endeavor together, from around the world and set the stage for more rapid development and research support. In rapid fashion, steroid related efforts gave way to contraceptive vaccines and gonadotropic-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonists and by the turn of century actual successful management of certain species was well underway. This included wild horses, urban deer, captive zoo populations, and even African elephants. However, an unanticipated backlash from state and federal wildlife agencies, and some animal protection groups slowed progress, particularly in application of the science to free-ranging wildlife populations. Today the science has progressed to the point where actual management could alleviate many problems but the sociopolitical dimensions of this science have slowed progress and thrown up many non-scientific hurdles (state legislation in particular). This short history presents a classic case of a general public and political system that cannot keep pace with new scientific developments.

https://www.researchgate.net/public..._of_a_25-Year_International_Conference_Series


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## Hondo

Of particular interest to me was the claim that population control could be achieved with a roundup every three years, darting, and release. At around $250/hour for each helicopter, it seems that would cost less than 5M even when considering ground crews and setup.



That would seem to be the only method that would work for the "truly" wild herds that avoid humans even at a considerable distance, much farther than the ranch of a darting rifle.


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## WildAbtHorses

In this rare bipartisan moment, will our government do what's right for wild horses and burros?
BY NANCY PERRY, OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 11/01/19 11:30 AM EDT
https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-...rare-bipartisan-moment-will-our-government-do

Two years ago, a small coalition of animal welfare groups submitted a proposal to the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) outlining a framework to humanely and sustainably manage wild horses and burros on public lands, opening up a dialogue they hoped might save our herds from wholesale slaughter. Last month, Congress took unprecedented steps to assure the protection of our herds through funding for the modern version of this proposal, now supported by an unlikely coalition of Western interests standing alongside those humane organizations in a collective effort to create a new future for America’s wild horses and burros. This week was declared “Wild Horse Week” by Washington’s Mayor Bowser to coincide with the biannual Wild Horse and Burro Advisory Board meeting in the District, and it seems the perfect time to ask the BLM to embrace this non-lethal and highly effective management approach.

…As the BLM lagged in implementing population management tools and allowed herds to swell…

…With momentum building in the halls of Congress, we have a real opportunity to make meaningful change for these beloved animals….


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## WildAbtHorses

William Perry Pendley and his propaganda!?!

Who's afraid of wild horses?
by Charlotte Roe and Mary A. Koncel - November 03, 2019 12:00 AM
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/op-eds/whos-afraid-of-wild-horses

William Perry Pendley, acting chief of the Bureau of Land Management, is warning of a fearsome herd. Wild horses and burros, he says, are an “existential threat,” and the “havoc and destruction” they wreak is the biggest problem facing federal public lands.

Curiously absent from Pendley’s apocalyptic vision is the fact that wild horses and burros don’t exist on 90% of BLM land. Yet public lands continue to deteriorate. His rant against wild equines seeks to deflect public attention from the real forces ravaging America’s lands: livestock overgrazing, intensive oil and gas drilling, mining, deforestation, and the rollback of federal protections for publicly owned lands. It also aims to build congressional support for funding the agency’s new, draconian management plan.


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## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> …As the BLM lagged in implementing population management tools and allowed herds to swell…



In fairness to the BLM, it seems that lawsuits were more responsible for the herds being allowed to swell.




Wow, with Pendley's attitude, my hopes are a little dashed.


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## WildAbtHorses

The BLM Has Found A Lot Of People To Hold Its Horses (And Burros) By Caitlyn Kim October 24, 2019
"Colorado Democratic Rep. Joe Neguse and other members of Congress sent a letter to Interior Secretary David Bernhardt to request BLM’s report on the Wild Horse and Burro Program, which is three months overdue."
https://www.cpr.org/2019/10/24/the-blm-has-found-a-lot-of-people-to-hold-its-horses-and-burros/

FYI: I am still looking for an in-depth discussion on compensatory reproduction and America’s wild horses' situation.

"Compensatory reproduction is defined as an increase in reproduction as a direct or indirect consequence of management reductions, including removals and contraception. Indirect responses could include increased fertility, foal survival, or adult survival due to reduced competition for forage." https://www.nap.edu/read/13511/chapter/5 Copyright 2013


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## Hondo

I have some thoughts. They don't involve a lot of statistics. Take coyote/rabbit population. With too few rabbits, the coyotes start to starve and some don't make it. Lots of rabbits because of abundant rainfall, rabbit population booms and so does coyote population.


Same with horses. Too many horses, they begin to starve. And so does other animals depending on the same forage. Ok, fine. That's how it worked before humans arrived. But we are here now and are not willing to let nature take it's course. ie: emancipated horses starving and dyeing on the range.


And of course, the mega fauna die-out left no sabre toothed tigers to cull the herd.


So what do we have left. Fertility control that becomes aggressive enough to override compensatory reproduction through trial and error.


I mean, if every single mare is rendered infertile, compensatory reproduction is a non-issue. So we back off enough to maintain herd size and genetic stability.


That's the way I see it. No mega studies needed. Just go do it.


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## WildAbtHorses

A side note: The more I read about feral animals and reproduction; the more overwhelmed and humbled I am at the complexity of the situation.


Advisory board for wild horses meets to discuss how to manage growing herds
By Jillian Angeline*Posted: Thu 9:31 AM, Oct 31, 2019
https://www.kmvt.com/content/news/564164992.html

He is an eight (8) minute video with Fred Woehl:
https://www.kmvt.com/content/news/564164992.html?jwsource=cl


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## WildAbtHorses

This is soooo cool! Would love to have all mustangs tested.

Elisa Wallace had her mustang Eton tested by Etalon Diagnostics: https://www.etalondx.com
Coat
Immune System
Muscle Disorders
Reproductive Disorders
Skin and Hoof Disorders
Trait Genetics
Uveitis
Laminitis
Squamous Cell Carcinoma
Tiger Eye
White Line (hoof)

Ancestry for Eton: Thoroughbred, North Sea, Near East, Iberian, Carriage Horse, British Isles Native, and European Heavy Horse


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## boots

I've often found the different breed characteristics found in some of the feral horses to be interesting. 

They don't often stand out, but when they do it's fun to consider.


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## COWCHICK77

I haven't looked in on this thread for a bit so if this seems out of place, apologies.

In the last month, we have moved from northern Nevada to southern Idaho. Tonight watching the local news they had a story about rounding up the wild horses in Challis, ID. I thought it was interesting as they interviewed people from different standpoints and no one was upset about the roundup. 
This was the first roundup of that herd since 2012 because they have been using the fertility drugs in the mares. They will sort off adoptable horses, the mares will be fertilized and turned back out. 
I have to say it was a much different feel than I am used to on the subject. Even the horse advocates were not upset with the use of a helicopter and understand BLM manages the land for multi-use not just horses, livestock, mining, energy or public recreational use. 

I have been in favor of fertility drugs or spaying of mares as a means of population control but many groups have been against it. 
I believe this is a glimpse of the happy medium between all sides for a solution. 
Also, it was refreshing to see calm responses rather than outrage to a roundup which those in Nevada seem to attract.

I tried to find a link on the news website for the story aired but perhaps they don't have it up yet.


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## boots

@COWCHICK77 - That's refreshing. Most people who live in my area are able to come to agreement on the issue of herd management/range management. But we sure don't get to see it from the loudest voices of the special interest groups.


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## Hondo

Too bad that it's often the most contentious that get the bulk of the attention while rationality is too often pushed to the background.


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## WildAbtHorses

Thanks! Yes, very interesting.

BLM gathers wild horses from Idaho's Challis Herd Management Area

https://www.kmvt.com/content/news/Wild-horse-gather-concludes-in-Challis--564781112.html

https://returntofreedom.org/blm-set-to-reduce-challis-idaho-herd-to-185-wild-horses-2/

https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-h...vals/idaho/2019-challis-HMA-wild-horse-gather

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/environment/article237261899.html

https://www.idahostatesman.com/latest-news/article237262654.html


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## COWCHICK77

Thanks @WildAbtHorses for posting the link to the news story. (kmvt news)


I looked at Wild Love Preserve's website who the founder they interviewed for the story. On her website she says
"Wild Love Preserve has bringing people together in a new light to collectively develop and implement new working solutions which serve to benefit wild horses and the whole. Fluid communications, mutual respect, listening and patience are cornerstone to establishing common ground."


Quite a different tone than the Laura Leighs of Nevada who prefer to throw tantrums. Which I have seen first hand.


Last Sunday while drinking my coffee I watched a program on Idaho PBS, it was more about wolves but same idea of people need a better understanding of both sides and opening communication. Readers Digest version, ranchers of eastern Oregon went to the capital to discuss control of the wolf population, children of a environmental school also showed up. Afterwards a 4H leader from the eastern side of Oregon started a program where kids from the western Oregon environmental school come out to stay for a few days on eastern Oregon ranches with host families during calving season to learn about the lifestyle. In the end both sides learn a lot about each other and shove aside the stereotypes.
I thought it was really great to see rather than trying to shove ideas down each others throats. I know I have been guilty of it


----------



## Hondo

I really shouldn't say this as there are a lot of wonderful people in California, of which I was one for 20 years plus the first 6 years of my life.


Anyhow, perhaps the difference in attitudes between Nevada and Idaho has to do with the proximity or lack thereof to California. It's easier to make a short trip to Nevada than to Idaho.


Just sharing a thought that popped up from somewhere in my, er, brain............ All in fun!


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Crisis in the West: Americans will soon have a $5 billion wild horse problem and few know about it. An in-depth look at a dilemma called ‘the most wicked natural resource problem facing the West’ By Amy Joi O'[email protected] Oct 23, 2019, 10:10pm MDT

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2019/1...lion-wild-horse-problem-and-few-know-about-it

Editor’s note: This is the first in a series of stories exploring the challenges of managing wild horses in the West and the cost of doing nothing.

“The Deseret News spent eight months interviewing wildlife experts, rangeland ecologists, ranchers, cowboys, rural politicians, scientists and reviewing records with the Bureau of Land Management, which has oversight of the range, and lawsuits to understand this costly problem and what can be done about it.”

“There are 50,000 horses kept in off-range corrals or pastures, with many that have no chance at being adopted into private care because of age or other factors.”

IMO: These are the MUSTANGS we should start providing ETALON Diagnostic testing https://www.etalondx.com
The test results will help Americans help those wild horses being held in captivity.

IMO: William Perry Pendley does not present a complete or accurate picture of the situation. To me, he is more of a bad-politician by distorting facts rather than "let's help solve America's wild horses & burros problem" in an unbiased way and an honest and open way.


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## WildAbtHorses

PBS' "How Horses Took Over North America (Twice)"
Posted August 2018
A video that goes through 55 million years in 10 quick minutes and confirms that horses are native to North America.


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## whisperbaby22

November 17 Coast to Coast had a 2 hour discussion on this subject. I listened to the whole thing, very informative.


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## WildAbtHorses

Thanks!

These are from March 2012 (looking for yesterday’s post):

https://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/03/18

In the first hour, George Knapp was joined by wildlife ecologist Craig Downer to discuss America's magnificent wild horses that have been unfairly targeted for elimination in what he calls the Wild Horse Conspiracy.

Horse advocate Jerry Reynoldson joined Downer in the second hour, and talked about Madeleine Pickens' eco-sanctuary plan to take 1,000 horses onto 550,000 acres of public land, for less taxpayer money than what the ranchers are currently being paid.


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## WildAbtHorses

Hidden Alien Encounters / Wild Horse Advocacy
https://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2019/11/17

In 1971, Congress passed, and President Nixon signed the Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act after determining wild horses and burros were fast disappearing. But now eight times more BLM land is authorized for livestock than for wild horses. In the latter half, horse advocates Jerry Reynoldson and Greg Hendricks discussed new efforts that are underway to humanely manage wild horse populations using the fertility control vaccine or PZP. The BLM, Reynoldson reported, continues to focus more on helicopter round-ups and penning the horses rather than population control. He pointed out that while there are reportedly some 80,000 wild horses on federal lands, that number is dwarfed by the 18 million cattle that graze on them, but the BLM continues to argue that it's the horses that have the most significant impact. He advocated for public/private partnerships to deal more effectively with the issue.

Hendricks, who formerly worked with the BLM on the wild horse & burro program, is now the Director of Field Operations for the American Wild Horse Campaign. He, too, is concerned over the BLM's transporting and holding of the animals, and the favoring of the ranchers' interests. Hendricks said PZP has successfully been used for thirty years to reduce large populations of various animal species, but volunteer groups are doing more of the administration of the fertility drug than the BLM. The two guests also recommended wild horse adoption programs such as the one run by the Mustang Heritage Foundation. Many of the horses are considered quite gentle after being trained.


----------



## COWCHICK77

Hondo said:


> I really shouldn't say this as there are a lot of wonderful people in California, of which I was one for 20 years plus the first 6 years of my life.
> 
> 
> Anyhow, perhaps the difference in attitudes between Nevada and Idaho has to do with the proximity or lack thereof to California. It's easier to make a short trip to Nevada than to Idaho.
> 
> 
> Just sharing a thought that popped up from somewhere in my, er, brain............ All in fun!



Nevada has been invaded, especially the westside and Vegas. That is why a lot of Nevadans get frustrated, a very concentrated group in the major cities that fled a very poorly run state and still voting the same tend to speak for the rest of us minority living on the majority of the land. 

I will just leave it at that. 


Unfortunately Idaho is one of the fastest growing states, Boise used to be one the fastest growing cities in the US now Meridian a lot of them Californian transplants. 



I think some of the reason the tension isn't as high here is Idaho horse numbers are considerably less to begin with and smaller HMAs along with the original fight started in Nevada. I think there is still a lot of animosity held there. 




WildAbtHorses said:


> Thanks!
> 
> These are from March 2012 (looking for yesterday’s post):
> 
> https://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/03/18
> 
> In the first hour, George Knapp was joined by wildlife ecologist Craig Downer to discuss America's magnificent wild horses that have been unfairly targeted for elimination in what he calls the Wild Horse Conspiracy.
> 
> Horse advocate Jerry Reynoldson joined Downer in the second hour, and talked about Madeleine Pickens' eco-sanctuary plan to take 1,000 horses onto 550,000 acres of public land, for less taxpayer money than what the ranchers are currently being paid.



I will have to check that out since Madeleine's sanctuary was close.


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## Hondo

COWCHICK77 said:


> Unfortunately Idaho is one of the fastest growing states, Boise used to be one the fastest growing cities in the US now Meridian a lot of them Californian transplants.



I just read an article the other day where a mayoral candidate in Boise was running on a platform of keep california out.


I can't say much as I retired from california.


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## WildAbtHorses

Madeleine Pickens' eco-sanctuary
https://www.mustangmonument.com

“The eco-resort that's taking on the government to save America's wild mustangs” By Sue Watt, travel writer 30 MAY 2019
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/.../united-states/articles/wild-mustangs-nevada/

Velvet [a rescued wild horse] is one of the lucky ones. Along with 600 other horses, her home is Mustang Monument in north-eastern Nevada, a luxury eco-resort on a ranch which, at 900 square miles, is around the size of the Lake District National Park. It is owned by ardent animal lover and philanthropist Madeleine Pickens, who seeks to preserve equine heritage through her foundation Saving America’s Mustangs. She hotly disputes the government figures, believing they are greatly exaggerated to justify mass killings.*

Note: Pickens, a wealthy philanthropist, is the ex-wife of T. Boone Pickens, who once sought to take over Newmont Mining Corp., including its mines in Nevada.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_A._Pickens#Mustang_Monument_Eco-Resort
“Although she has purchased several hundred horses at risk of slaughter and maintains them on the private lands of the ranches, in 2014 Saving America's Mustangs leased the Spruce Allotment grazing permit to the Spruce Grazing Association that instead grazes cows. On December 21, 2017, the BLM announced it would be rounding up horses in the area of the Spruce allotment. On August 25, 2018, the BLM announced an emergency gather of 300 horses at Boone Spring within the allotment.”


An aside and IMO: I would love to hire Etalon to run diagnostics on ALL of America's wild horses. I think Etalon Diagnostics could be the paragon shift --the catalyst for a positive solution for our Mustangs. https://www.etalondx.com


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## COWCHICK77

Hondo said:


> I just read an article the other day where a mayoral candidate in Boise was running on a platform of keep california out.
> 
> 
> I can't say much as I retired from california.


If I lived in Boise, I'd vote..lol

I too spent most of my childhood in northern California. It sickens me how it is being run.


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## Hondo

You keep digging up a lot of stuff that I was unaware of. I for one appreciate reading about it. Keep digging!


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## phantomhorse13

WildAbtHorses said:


> An aside and IMO: I would love to hire Etalon to run diagnostics on ALL of America's wild horses. I think Etalon Diagnostics could be the paragon shift --the catalyst for a positive solution for our Mustangs.


The sketchy reputation of that lab aside, what exact testing do you think would help the mustangs? I don't see how knowing the exact genetics of the coat color of the horse or possible recessive diseases its carrying would make any difference as the last thing needed is people breeding more..


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## WildAbtHorses

phantomhorse13 are you on a Mustang? what a great picture!

Why I think testing Mustangs today will be the catalyst in resolving America's wild horses' predicament.

If a reliable and reputable diagnosis company ran comprehensive genetic and health-related tests IMO, it would be beneficial for humans, horses, and eventually the eco-system.

Running tests on each wild horse in the United States would provide us with tools to better manage the overall health of individual animals and herds. The results would provide data for research studies that may help future generations of Americans make the correct and appropriate decisions on individual horses and their herds.

IMO: To know the following would allow Americans to address each issue (we want healthy horses in the wild and in captivity) and the test results would provide future owners or overseers with knowledge on their horse(s):
Immune System
Muscle Disorders
Reproductive Disorders
Skin and Hoof Disorders
Trait Genetics
Uveitis
Laminitis
Squamous Cell Carcinoma
Tiger Eye
White Line (hoof)

IMO: The 50 years of the on-going wild horses & burros situation does not appear to have an agreed-upon pending viable solution. So we have to, at least, do something that will provide our descendants with "tools" (i.e., research data) that may help them resolve this complex issue.


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## WildAbtHorses

IMO: The wild horses of America have presented the citizens of the United States with a very complicated situation. How do mere mortals play God and get it right? Trust in the Universe but not in man?


Ecologist Craig Downer: Open Letter to BLM Re: Cloud’s Herd by Jfinch April 2013

“oppose the intensified use of PZP on the Pryor Mountain wild horses”

“The logic is this: those mares who fail to achieve pregnancy quickly become disaffected with their band stallions and go off with other stallions in their futile attempts to achieve pregnancy. Similarly the stallions become desperate in their repeated futile attempts to impregnate the mares. This leads to widespread discontent and disruption, both within and between the wild horse bands composing the Pryor Mountain – as any – herd. This results in the serious neglect by adults of their duties to educate the younger members of their bands who are not as inhibited in their breeding as before. These immature individuals attempt to breed prematurely when the social units are in disarray. If intact they would be learning the very important lessons for survival in the demanding Pryor Mountain ecosystem, with its harsh winters, etc. As the effect of PZP wanes and some mares come back into a fertile condition, many give birth out of the normal Spring and early Summer birthing season, even in the late Fall or Winter when cold and storms cause them to greatly suffer and even die, along with their offspring.”

https://www.habitatforhorses.org/ecologist-craig-downer-open-letter-to-blm-re-clouds-herd/


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## WildAbtHorses

Genetic study of Chilcotin’s wild horses finds surprising links to Siberia
LARRY PYNN, VANCOUVER SUN 01.07.2015

Genetic study of Chilcotin?s wild horses finds surprising links to Siberia

“ An estimated 1,000 wild horses are thought to exist in B.C.’s Chilcotin plateau, with up to about 215 of those in the remote Brittany Triangle.”

Fascinating!


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## phantomhorse13

WildAbtHorses said:


> phantomhorse13 are you on a Mustang? what a great picture!
> 
> Running tests on each wild horse in the United States would provide us with tools to better manage the overall health of individual animals and herds.


Thank you for the compliment. That is Sultan, an Arabian, carrying me over Cougar Rock (a famous part of the Tevis Cup 100 mile endurance ride in California). In recent years, mustangs have had good showings there, with several achieving top 10 finishes and winning Best Condition.


I agree having information on individual health could help manage the horses, but how would you suggest getting samples from all the horses and who is going to foot the bill for it? And even finding a money source and a way to get the samples, do you think all the advocacy groups are going to agree to such extreme human intervention?


----------



## Hondo

Again, to me, and possibly only to me, a Mustang can be any breed including an Arabian with the only requirement for Mustang status that the horse was born and raised in the wild within a wild herd during the time of feet, bone, ligament, and muscle development.


Be nice to see those top ten finishes in Tevis widely advertised. Might help in the recognition and placement of more Mustangs.


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## WildAbtHorses

*** The American Mustangs require a youthful human representative that is full of vim and vigor and is charismatic and driven to lead a wild horses' data collection CHARGE! All opposing parties must be encouraged to join the fight to-do-right by these horses --to be part of the solution, not part of the stalemate. ***

The Tevis Cup ... devised by a California businessman! (Who moved to Boise, Idaho! Just kidding.)

Wendell Robie, a Californian, and Sierra high country rider wanted to prove that the horse could cover the rugged trail from Lake Tahoe to Auburn in just one day. Home :: The Tevis Cup

"Mustang MM Cody Wins 2018 Haggin Cup at Tevis" by Marsha Hayes (2018)
https://thehorse.com/159658/mustang-mm-cody-wins-2018-haggin-cup-at-tevis/

"Welcome to the Tevis Cup: 100 Miles in 24 Hours" by Liz Brown (2016)
This 100-mile trek through the California mountains is a test of physical and mental fitness
https://horsenetwork.com/2016/08/welcome-tevis-cup/

The Tevis Cup 1minute video (2016) youtu.be/vBagYaGnHkw
10 minute video 2016 of entries youtu.be/_oYNb9XGTmY

The Ultimate Endurance Ride, the Western States 100 mile Endurance Ride aka 'The Tevis'.
What it takes to prepare and succeed in finishing. 100 miles over the Sierra mountains in 24 hours or less. (2014)
Part One: youtu.be/jJnnftpsUh8
Part Two: youtu.be/bTAsokZCr90

Go Mustangs!!!


----------



## Hondo

Kids that grow up in an agrarian setting seem to develop more stamina and other attributes than kids raised in the city. 



I think it's the same with horses.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I have contacted Dr. Hannah Fry! I am hoping she'll weigh-in on data collection on America's wild horses & burros.

"THE JOY OF" Documentaries
https://acorn.tv/joyof/

Joy of Data: Join mathematician Dr. Hannah Fry on an exhilarating look at the ubiquitous world of data, and how it is captured, stored, shared, and made sense of. This mind-expanding documentary traces the history of data from Claude Shannon, who invented the "bit" that launched the information age, through to the artificial intelligence of the future.

Magic Numbers: Hannah Fry's Mysterious World of Maths
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bn9dth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Fry


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Why can't we manage, at least, some our wild horse herds like Kameron Kelsey?

Note: A viewer's comment "Lovely story but the title is misleading, these are not "wild" horses, they are a dude string of broke horses that are used every season on guest ranch." -S. Stone

Kameron Kelsey wrangling his wild horses (a 9-minute mini documentary) June 2018 NatGeo
Wrangling Wild Horses in the Mountains of Montana | Short Film Showcase


----------



## Hondo

Used to be very common for horse strings to be turned out into the mountains during the winter. Some places it still is I reckon.


An ex-broher in law did that on his ranch in Colorado. About 50 years ago I was invited to assist in bringing them down from the mountains one spring. They were much easing to bring down than some of the wild cattle I've helped with here in Arizona.


Nothing like the Mustangs I've encountered hiking in Nevada.


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## WildAbtHorses

The Chincoteague Pony Swim - Martin Clunes: Islands of America - ITV (Feb2018) 10-minute video


----------



## boots

The feral horses do live their lives in response to what nature provides, or does to, them and the country.

What would moving them about improve?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*BLM Mustang in Germany Living the Good Life!*

Tanja (20) and Bettina (20) from Germany and their horses:
Estella, 12 years-old Andalusian mare
Don, 4 years-old BLM Mustang gelding

IMO - I'd love to live with horses like this, and every horse deserves this kind of life too.


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## WildAbtHorses

Looking for websites with pictures of America's wild horses and burros.

Found this one by photographer Tony Stromberg from San Francisco:
https://tonystromberg.com/portfolio-grid/

Love all, especially the "The Window to the Soul" folder.


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## WildAbtHorses

Mary Ann Simonds from Institute of Integrated Sciences, and The Whole Horse & Equestrian Science Institute Wild Horses ? Research and Education | Mary Ann Simonds

“After spending almost 40 years studying wild horses, it is with sadness I have to admit* there is very little if any natural wild horse herds in the world who have not been influenced by humans.* I was fortunate to start my research at the University of Wyoming in 1973 and obtain both behavioral and range data on horses and ecosystems in a number of Wyoming herds.
I hope documenting the brief history of my involvement and research will inspire others to continue working on behalf of wild equid protection and management.” - Ms. Simonds

Trailer Wild Horses Understanding the Natural Lives of Horses, 2012. 5-min slideshow
youtu.be/FaxGC9DSA40


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## WildAbtHorses

Mustangs: Facts About America's Wild Horses
By Alina Bradford with Nina Sen - Live Science June 24, 2014 
https://www.livescience.com/27686-mustangs.html

The following was copy/pasted directly from the article:

1. The name was derived from the Spanish word mustengo, which means "ownerless beast" or "stray horse." 
2. their population can double in size every four years
3. They can stay a healthy weight on very little food. When food is readily available, adult mustangs eat around 5 to 6 pounds of food each day.
4. About 271,000 mustangs have been removed from private land by the government since 1971
5. About 100 years ago, about 2 million mustangs roamed the North American terrain. Now, there are fewer than 25,000 mustangs in the wild.
6. In the wild, Mustangs can live up to 40 years.

Alina and Nina did a great job on this article. Now it's time for them to provide first-hand experiences on finding, selecting, adopting, training, and caring for their own wild horse(s) & burro(s) and vblogg all about it!

Have I found what I've been looking for?!?


----------



## boots

https://www.doi.gov/ocl/wild-horses-and-burros-0

72,000 horses and 16,000 burros on public lands.

I also disagree with the four to five pounds of food daily. Depending on the size of the horse, 12 to 20# is more realistic. I too, have had several mustangs.

It is accurate that the population can double every four years, roughly.

I have no idea how they came up with the two million horse number. 

Oral history from Crow, Lakota, and Northern Cheyenne sources put estimates at less, and now times when illness and drought reduced the numbers greatly.


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## Hondo

I'll add that 40 YO is very unusual for a well cared for horse. In the wild most estimates of life span is 20 years.


While there is a video of a horse eating a cheeseburger and while I've seen a horse enjoy part of an egg sandwich, to classify them as omnivores is, I believe, a stretch. Their digestive system is very delicate plus they cannot regurgitate.



An 800 pound horse minimum feed would be 0.015x800= 12 pounds, twice the article stated.


I prefer to stick to .gov or .edu sites unless I have knowledge of that the site is reputable.


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## WildAbtHorses

LOL, you guys are the BEST! Thanks for the fact checking. I want real facts. Thank you.

Okay. If what I'm looking for doesn't exist, I need to provide an opportunity to develop it. Too cryptic? Stay tuned, please. I need to formulate the idea before proposing it.

FYI - As soon as I know that the horses and burros have an integrated network that is well-informed, objective, and pragmatic and is non-political and has no hidden agendas in their corner, I will be able to relax.

I've got an idea and the sunrise on the east coast is beautiful! I'll be back.


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## WildAbtHorses

“Saving the Wild Horses of the American West” with Laura Leigh (6 minutes):
https://video.newyorker.com/watch/saving-the-wild-horses-of-the-american-west-2018-01-10/
Wild Horse Education website: https://wildhorseeducation.org

The New Yorker: “A New Documentary Seeks to Capture the Plight of America’s Wild Horses”
By Carolyn Kormann January 10, 2018
https://www.newyorker.com/tech/anna...to-capture-the-plight-of-americas-wild-horses

“Saving the Mustang: North America's Horse Nearly Extinct (Wild West Documentary) Timeline” May 2, 2019 (50 minutes):


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## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> “Saving the Wild Horses of the American West” with Laura Leigh (6 minutes):
> https://video.newyorker.com/watch/saving-the-wild-horses-of-the-american-west-2018-01-10/
> Wild Horse Education website: https://wildhorseeducation.org
> 
> The New Yorker: “A New Documentary Seeks to Capture the Plight of America’s Wild Horses”
> By Carolyn Kormann January 10, 2018
> https://www.newyorker.com/tech/anna...to-capture-the-plight-of-americas-wild-horses
> 
> “Saving the Mustang: North America's Horse Nearly Extinct (Wild West Documentary) Timeline” May 2, 2019 (50 minutes): https://youtu.be/6Mu2p643Vss


Good lord, you're still alive? ....Then again, I should probably go look at myself in the mirror. 


Regardless, _this_ is the best that you've been able to come up with after a month away? 

A link to a website that claims to be "educational", but is really just a mouthpiece for a shrill supporter of "The BLM is the devil! Please leave the poor horsies alone, because aren't they just ever so pretty?!?" narrative? 


A "feel good" article from the New Yorker that mostly highlights a book written by a man deluded enough to believe that the "best" way to control the Mustang's numbers is via allowing the the Cougar (And _only_ the Cougar!) to hunt them... despite the fact that the Cougar is easily *the* most abundant predator in the Great Basin (AKA: Where most Mustangs roam today), yet a few specific herds aside, completely and utterly fails to even make a noticeable dent in the Mustang's numbers? 

(And before anyone complains, yes I have read the book. It contains some interesting history and cute stories, but the author is still deluded if he thinks that allowing Cougars to control the Mustang population is viable.)

And of course, it's a _year_ out of date too and contains information that is now wholly out-of-date. (Lol, the hand-wringing over Trump wanting to send the Mustang's to slaughter ended up amounting to nothing.) 


And a "documentary" (And I use that phrase lightly) where -_in the title no less_- claims that Mustangs are going "extinct"?! 


Color me disappointed. How many times do we have to tell you, stop listening almost exclusively to the shrills who want to stop any and all attempts to control Mustang and Burro numbers and *actually talk to people whose livelihoods are impacted by these animals or whose jobs revolve around them*.


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## 281187

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1171&context=usupress_pubs :- This might be of interest to many of us who have sunk some time into this discussion. 

It's a link to a book that was published in 1986 and has been digitized by the Utah State University for any and all people to read for free. 

The book itself was authored by a man who spent much of his youth (In the 20's, 30's and 40's) capturing Mustangs in a variety of ways for a variety of uses. A need for more saddle-stock/work-horses mostly, although there is the occasional mention of selling "Old, crippled and temperamental" horses for meat. 


It's really well worth a read! Not only is it stuffed full of personal stories about memorable round-ups and particularly personable horses, but the beginning really goes in-depth about the history of the horse and subsequently, the Mustang itself. 



Lol, it also totally debunks the "The Spanish brought them here 500 years ago! All Mustangs are therefore descendants of those horses and are not only perfectly adapted to life in America, but have a right to the lands they currently live on as well simply because of how long they've lived there!" narrative that a lot of the shrills and "advocates" just _looovvvee_ to trot out endlessly. 


For those not in the know... The horse as a species may have originated in North America, but the Great Basin as it is today is wildly different from the lands the horse may have lived on over 10,000 years ago. 

Hell, the great re-introduction of the horse to North America that stemmed from the Pueblo Revolt (Which is widely considered to be *the* event where the Spanish lost the majority of there horses, which the Native American tribes than gained and preceded to spread over much of the modern day United States and Canada), actually *missed* the Great Basin! 

Yes, in that area, it was actually the Europeans who re-introduced the horse to that part of the country! The local Native American's had no idea what horses were, as they had never encountered them before. So much for the "The horse never died out in North America! The Native American's say so!" narrative that yet again, the shrills and "advocates" like to trot out endlessly.... 


Anyway, this ranch covers much of the area the author talks about in this book. https://winecupgambleranch.com/ 

And these are the two HMA's where Mustangs roam in the area in the modern day. https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-h...nagement/herd-management-areas/nevada/goshute & https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-h...nt/herd-management-areas/nevada/spruce-pequop


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## boots

@PahsimeroiFuzzy - Good information.

I used to ride young horses for hands on both the Winecup and the Gamble before they were combined. 

I sure like that country. Lucky enough to have ridden some of that. Never enough.


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## Hondo

I have often wondered about the details of how such extremely large ranches came into existence.


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## WildAbtHorses

YES, PahsimeroiFuzzy "actually talk to people whose livelihoods are impacted by these animals or whose jobs revolve around them." I agree! I contacted a documentarian and asked him to video interview folks like you but have not heard back from him.

LOL yes, after a month, that was the best. Life got in the way of my obsession and my ideas to do something worthy of America's wild horses.

I appreciate your posts and all of the great insight you have provided. Thank you!

I have been thinking that I may need to take a road trip this summer and start a YouTube Channel with wild horse related content, including interviews with folks on the front line.


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## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> I have been thinking that I may need to take a road trip this summer and start a YouTube Channel with wild horse related content, including interviews with folks on the front line.



Hope you are able to do that!


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## WildAbtHorses

Thank you. I am now reading the on-line version of Parley J. Paskett’s 1986 “Wild Mustang” book:
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1171&context=usupress_pubs

And I am also reading Andrew Smith’s 1987 review of “Wild Horses of the Great Basin: Social Competition andPopulation Size” by Joel Berge. 
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1558-5646.1988.tb04172.x

“The Secret Lives of Horses: Long-term observations of wild equines reveal a host of unexpected behaviors” By Wendy Williams on May 1, 2017
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-secret-lives-of-horses1/

Scientists have long studied the best ways to train and treat domesticated horses, but they largely ignored the behavior of free-ranging horses. Recent research has begun to fill that gap.
-Observations from long-term studies of wild horses show that the conventional, male-centric view of their power dynamics is wrong.
-In fact, females often call the shots, employing tactics such as cooperation and persistence to get their way.

Wild Horses of the Great Basin: Social Competition and Population Size. Joel Berger. University of Chicago Press, 1986.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1558-5646.1988.tb04172.x

The Importance of Ethology in Understanding the Behavior of the Horse. D. Goodwin in
Equine Veterinary Journal, Vol. 31, No. S28, pages 15–19; April 1999.
“Domestication has provided the horse with food, shelter, veterinary care and protection, allowing individuals an increased chance of survival. However, the restriction of movement, limited breeding opportunities and a requirement to expend energy, for the benefit of another species, conflict with the evolutionary processes which shaped the behavior of its predecessors. The behavior of the horse is defined by its niche as a social prey species but many of the traits which ensured the survival of its ancestors are difficult to accommodate in the domestic environment. There has been a long association between horses and man and many features of equine behavior suggest a predisposition to interspecific cooperation. However, the importance of dominance in human understanding of social systems has tended to overemphasize its importance in the human‐horse relationship. The evolving horse‐human relationship from predation to companionship, has resulted in serial conflicts of interest for equine and human participants. Only by understanding the nature and origin of these conflicts can ethologists encourage equine management practices which minimize deleterious effects on the behavior of the horse.”


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## WildAbtHorses

Okay. I'm making lists! Here is my initial equipment one, which doesn't seem too outrageous and very doable:

I already have a DSLR camera.

GoPro The Handler Bundle for HERO7 $330
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...MIoNbp0faA5wIVBJyzCh1mAAmwEAkYAiABEgL--_D_BwE

DJI Mavic Mini $400
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1512648-REG/dji_cp_ma_00000120_01_mavic_mini.html

Rode VideoMic Pro with Rycote Lyre Shockmount and Dual Shoe Bracket Kit $185
Includes a Foam Windscreen
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...MI1Netw_yA5wIVA-iGCh1-lwqLEAQYASABEgLOlfD_BwE

Rode SC4 3.5mm TRS Female to 3.5mm Right-Angle TRRS Male Adapter Cable for Smartphones $15
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1048151-REG/rode_sc4_trs_to_trrs_adaptor.html

JOBY GorillaPod 1K Flexible Mini-Tripod $20
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1359598-REG/joby_jb01511_gorillapod_1k_stand.html

Manfrotto 502AH Video Head & MT055XPRO3 Aluminum Tripod Kit $350
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...MIvufqjv6A5wIVFXiGCh0hZQ32EAQYASABEgJDevD_BwE

Smartphone for vlogging - Samsung Galaxy $800
https://www.samsung.com/global/galaxy/galaxy-s10/

DJI Osmo Mobile 3 Smartphone Gimbal Combo Kit $130
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...MI2IfXq5GB5wIVEK_ICh2xvQSVEAQYASABEgJky_D_BwE


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## WildAbtHorses

While I figure out creating a YouTube Channel, here is a video (and I have contacted her):

Really why do we keep collecting wild horses???


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## Hondo

Are you certain it's legal to have that much fun?!


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## WildAbtHorses

I think you'll enjoy these quotes from Parley J. Paskett's 1986 book "Wild Mustangs."

“Wild Mustangs” by Parley Johnson Paskett (1918-
https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1171&context=usupress_pubs

Acknowledgement: Paskett was given his first Mustang at age two (2) and was riding the wild horse round-ups at age nine (9).

“Using helicopters today to run down wild horses removes both the thrill and sport in their capture.” -Parley J. Paskett

p.17 In the early 1930s Paskett, while he was herding sheep, captured a Mustang he named Tiger.
“Tiger became a good saddle horse, though hard to break because he was seven years old and wild as anything I ever saw. He filled out to weigh a thousand pounds when fat, and he had stamina and courage that was hard to equal."

p.19
“A clock watcher would never be a mustanger. Patience is most essential.”

p.120
“Some prefer to run mustangs in early spring, a good time because they are weak from the rough winter feed and the mares are heavy with foal. This very fact causes me to shy away from the early spring. I hesitate to take full advantage of the female process regardless of which species it might be.”

p.120-121
“Often when running to a corral you wind up with a wild horse on your rope, so keep it handy at all times.”


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## Hondo

Off topic but if anybody watching the video knows what kind of saddle Golde is using please share.


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## WildAbtHorses

Proposed Interview Questions - DRAFT and Work-in-Progress **First Attempt**

Aaaaahhhhh! This is going to be a lot of work figuring out how to create exciting and informative interviews that the public will want to watch (or listen to). I'm now thinking NPR or Freakonomics type podcasts? Or like a Trevor Noah's Daily Show segment both funny and serious.

Interviewees: Individuals born before 1950, e.g., age 70 or older.
1 Would you like to share your recollections of the "good old days?"
2 Do you have a favorite horse memory or horse story?
3 Have you ever had any interactions with America's wild horses? Burros?
4 Have you ever participated or been a spectator of a wild horse round-up?
5 How do you feel about the overall situation of America’s wild horses and burros in the wild? Of America’s wild horses and burros that are currently in holding facilities?
6 What do you think of the current process? Do you think it is working? Is there anything you would change?

Interviewees: Individuals with little or no prior knowledge of America's wild horses and burros dilemma.
1 What is your impression of America's wild horses? Burros?
2 Would you like to know more about them?
3 Would you ever want to visit a place where they run wild? A Government holding facility? Being "gentled," e.g., trained for human's enjoyment, sport, or work?
4 What are your thoughts on America's public lands that are controlled by the US Government, e.g., The Bureau of Land Management?
5 Do you or have you enjoyed America's public lands, especially in the US western states such as Nevada, Wyoming, Arizona, Utah.
6 What do you think of the fences that break-up the open space?
7 What do you think the primary use of the land should be? Human entertainment such as hiking, camping? Native species, both flora (plants) and fauna (animals)? Mined for its natural resources such as natural gas, coal, petroleum, potash? Ranched, e.g., cattle, sheep? Shared?
8 Do you consider America wild horses a native species?
9 What are your thoughts on the compensatory reproduction of feral animals?
10 Would you like to know more about the “stalemate?”


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## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> 7. What do you think the primary use of the land should be? Human entertainment such as hiking, camping? Native species, both flora (plants) and fauna (animals)? Mined for its natural resources such as natural gas, coal, petroleum, potash? Ranched, e.g., cattle, sheep? Shared?


I might get rid of this question, since _by law_ all public lands are to be managed for multi-use. So the recreationist's, the wildlife, the miners and yes, even the ranchers, already *have* to share. Changing that would _not_ be a good thing ((Because that would only lead to each group wanting *everything* for themselves to the complete and total exclusion of everyone else and throwing fits and tantrums and keeping the courthouses busy with litigation if they don't get their way)), so I wouldn't even so much as suggest it as an option.


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## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> 6 What do you think of the fences that break-up the open space?


I would knock this one out too, since it comes across as a leading question.


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## WildAbtHorses

Here are online copies of:

Wild Horses & Burros Timeline: https://indd.adobe.com/view/47dd072e-4fed-425f-91b0-05bf2452dcb3

Wild Horses & Burros InfoSheet: https://indd.adobe.com/view/87289530-33bb-4fb1-998a-b67c1045e3b3


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## WildAbtHorses

Still need to calculate the number of WH that have been saved and are living in wild horse sanctuaries and rescues. 

Here is the start of the list:

Black Hills Wild Horse Sanctuary - founded by Dayton O. Hyde in 1988
500 WH on 11,000 acres in Southern Black Hills, South Dakota
https://www.wildmustangs.com

Montgomery Creek Ranch - saved 200 WH from slaughter
2,000 acre sanctuary for wild horses in Northern California
https://www.montgomerycreekranch.org

Wild Horse Sanctuary - rescued 80 wild horses
5,000 acres in Shingletown, California
http://www.wildhorsesanctuary.org


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## Hondo

If anyone is interested in Mustangs I'll just send them to this thread.


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## horselovinguy

You're talking about mustangs...
I'm not sure how old the news is or if it is new news...


*Success! Beloved Wild Horses in Arizona Are Officially Protected*

Animal advocates are celebrating a major victory for a beloved herd of wild horses in Arizona’s Tonto National Forest, who are now officially protected from being removed and slaughtered.
The herd, known as the Salt River wild horses, became the center of a major controversy in 2015, when the Forest Service announced plans to remove them and auction them off. The agency argued they were stray livestock and not entitled to protection under the Wild and Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act of 1971, and it was therefore not responsible for managing them.


The full article and details are here... _https://americanwildhorsecampaign.o...jb1CHDBl-LXIikIRai8F-G-gUuyziUZ5ZmyFVYOVKmtsM_
Only passing on what caught my eye today in reading something else...
:runninghorse2:...


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## Change

The Tonto herd are classified as feral horses and are not subject to BLM management. They are under the protection of the National Forestry Service.


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## WildAbtHorses

Interesting. Forest Service in charge of "feral horses" and BLM in charge of "wild horses." 

Forest Service is fencing the lower Salt River.
https://saltriverwildhorsemanagementgroup.org/updates/in-the-news/

“… metal fencing that will run along as well as across and through the lowest part of the Salt River, … is not for safety…this is designed to keep the horses from naturally migrating. It will not let the horses on the Forest Service side get to the river; their only water source.”

"The OTHER fence, the 10 miles on both sides of Bush Hwy, is to keep the horses off of Bush Hwy for human safety…we share that goal with the Forest Service."

FYI: Cowtown Rodeo in Cowtown, NJ built a tunnel under Route 40, so they can run their herd of horses on both sides of the highway.

Suggestion: Both State and Federal Agencies should support Arizona and the Salt River Wild Horses to build several tunnels to allow natural migration of native species and keep animals safely away from highways.


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## WildAbtHorses

Here is a new Adobe Spark Slide Presentation on Wild Horses & Burros (it includes links to all of the others) for your review and feedback and comments:

https://spark.adobe.com/page/wuuqtIOxRvW68/


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## Hondo

I think the minimum population or herd size for genetic stability as reported on page 9 may be in error. All I've found is in the neighborhood of 250 rather than 2,500. I searched around on the IUCN site and did not find a reference. Do you have on?


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## 281187

@WildAbtHorses 

Got some documents here that you'll probably find interesting. 


http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/summer-14/range-su14-forty-one_years.pdf :-A firsthand account of mustang mania. 


http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/spring-10/sp10-range-horses.pdf :- Over-population is the greatest threat to wild horses, Reinventing horse heaven, An easy answer and Assuring the survival of the Spanish Mustang. ((Four different magazine articles!)) 


http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/summer-10/su10-range-up_front.pdf :- The heart of reality. 


http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/winter-16/range-wi16-ignoring-law.pdf :- Thanks to activists and feckless bureaucrats, a lawless West is reemerging. 

https://www.cowboyshowcase.com/rounding-up-wild-horses.html#.Xixxr-jYr8l :- Cattoor Livestock Roundups, Inc. 

& 

https://www.cowboyshowcase.com/wild-horse-casey.html#.Xixx8OjYr8l :- How one man lost his horses to the US Government.


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## WildAbtHorses

It is always exciting to have someone new join the discussion. Thanks for the links I am reading the articles.

It ain't easy to present this highly controversial 50-year situation unbiasedly. The Goal: is to have a Global conversation about America's wild horses and burros. The Objectives: are to educate and engage the American people in an open discussion.

The horse situation in the western states sounds a bit like the dog situation in the southern states. When folks no longer want their domestic animals, they let them go "free" unneutered.

As for the Adobe Spark slides and the InDesign documents, Adobe provides free photo stock images.

As for citations, "When directly quoting from a work, include the author, year of publication and the page number," which I usually do provide. As for the little postcards, all of that information is thanks to Google or is just common knowledge. All works are works-in-progress and have not been published and are still in the creation and editing phases.

The emotional plea from the horses may be immature and childish and just a tactic to get attention, but America's horses in the western states deserve our attention. It is a sincere and deeply heartfelt plea for American's to engage in the discussion.


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## Hondo

Ben Masters had in the past a tentative agreement from the Forest Service for opening up certain areas for excess/captured wild horses providing both males and females were sterilized. The worry was that all it would take was for someone to turn a stallion or two loose and the herd would become reproductive.


In my mind, this is the only acceptable solution, particularly with laparoscopic spaying becoming so safe and cost effective compared to the past. 



With the cost of the long term care of horses in pens, it just seems to be a no brainer.



https://thehorse.com/152142/spaying-mares-with-newer-safer-methods/


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3671724/


Quote: The widespread use of laparoscopy in horses has revolutionized spaying of mares. Unquote


Quoted from: Steinbeck Country Equine Clinic | Control of Estrus In Mares


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## Hondo

I'll begin with the article titled, "Forty-One Years of Hell", by George Parman


My overall impression is that the article is misleading and inaccurate at best and intentionally deceptive at worst.


From the topics and subtopics mentioned in the article, only the devastation of range land and natural habitat and cost to the taxpayers will be commented on.


The Taylor Grazing Act passed in 1934 was to protect the devastation of range land conditions, not from the excesses of wild horses but from the excesses of the cattle ranchers.


That's when the federally owned grazing allotments were fenced off with ranchers receiving a grazing allotment based on the home base or homestead they had in private ownership. This was to give the government some semblance of control over the stocking rate of public lands that were subjected to grazing. I can personally attest to the fact that "semblance of control" remains in effect today on many ranches in a circular area of approximately 50 miles diameter that I have ridden over and am very familiar with. 



One particular ranch of over 20,000 acres of public land decided, only a couple of years ago, to not sell the herd down during a drought due to the low prices at the time from others selling their herds down. This rancher decided that even if some cows starved and died, enough would make it through that it would be more profitable to just leave them on the range until the rains came and prices began to rise as people began to buy back for their herds.


Hondo and I rode over this ranch during the time mentioned. Hondo is a real glutton and when there is no real work to do will often ask to sample a sweet smelling clump along the way. Hondo could not find anything he wanted to eat. I saw dead cows. Both living and dead were below a grade 1 on a horse.


There are no wild horses anywhere in this area. The forest service in the area is very strict about the cattle load during drought and actually any other time. Riding Hondo in the National Forest which was adjacent to the ranch provided healthy natural grasses with every step.


In the early days long before the Taylor Grazing Act, cattle were driven in from other states carrying noxious weeds that over took much of the natural grasses. Along with rampant over grazing. And no wild horses to speak of.


Riding the lush pasture of the National Forest during the drought, I could only imagine what the landscape must have looked like prior to the abuses of cattle ranching in the area long before the Taylor Grazing Act.



The original devastation of the range land was due to the push to populate the Western states. This push was from "big money" located both in the U.S. and other countries whose sole aim was for a profitable return from the populated West. Pure greed. Not from the settlers themselves, but from those making it possible.



One animal whom none will deny it's native status, the buffalo, was decimated because it interfered with the life style pursued by the westward expansion of the companies behind it.


I am impressed that Mr. Parman's desire is that the few wild horses left in the tattered environments they have been left in meet the same fate as the buffalo. And for the same reasons.


I have no doubt there is range land degradation in some instance by horses left in numbers and locations that are unsuitable. But the range land degradation by horses are not even a fraction of a drop in a very large bucket compared to the range land degradation from cattle. Anyone even loosely connected with the beef cattle industry knows this to be a clear fact.


The second item to be discussed is the cost of wild horses to the taxpayers.


First, I'll mention my belief that if safe permanent sterilization of the mares were allowed, the bulk of the burden to the taxpayers would be removed.


Second, the cost to taxpayers for cattle grazing on public land far exceeds the cost of the upkeep of the wild horses in holding areas. Over a billion dollars in the last ten years according to one report.


"For references, just search "cost to taxpayers for grazing on public land" as I did. You'll find several references.


Finally, I view Mr. Parnam's article as being made with his right hand resting firmly on his wallet.


Edit: Here's a link comment that gave me a chuckle.


"It costs more to feed a domestic housecat than to graze domestic livestock on federal public lands."


https://advocateswest.org/high-cost-of-cheap-grazing/


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## WildAbtHorses

This is a summary of my take-aways from Range Magazine, Summer 2014 article. I have never really ridden a horse and I have never seen any wild horses in the western states. And, my livelihood never depended on grazing permits or Gov't lands (at least, that I know of).

http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/summer-14/range-su14-forty-one_years.pdf

"Forty-one Years of Hell: A Firsthand Account of Mustang Mania."
by George Parman [1931-2018 (87)] aka "Mustang George" A Nevado rancher who was at odds with US Gov't, WH, and BLM permits for 41 years of his life.

"...most of the world's armies being mounted on Nevada horses."

1927 James E. Gurr shot 1,046 WH.
1946 Jim Brown & Ed Allyn killed 851 WH.
1950 Mr. Parman meets Charlie & Velma Johnson aka "Wild Horse Annie"
1961 movie Misfits is released.
1975 $26.50/head and later increased to $36.50/head.
1990 2,000 WH die.
2014 100,000 WH under Gov't care.

It sounds like Mr. Parman blames Velma Johnson for his 41 years of hell.


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## QtrBel

MOD Note

This thread was closed for a review and is now opened again.

Some posts have been removed and others that were responses to those posts have also been removed.

We realize that this is a 'hot topic' but its also a very relevant one. 
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## WildAbtHorses

Range Magazine, Sprint 2010 - has four separate articles - here is my summary of the first of four:
http://www.rangemagazine.com/feature...nge-horses.pdf 

Story One:
“The Truth About Horses: Overpopulation is the greatest threat to “wild” horses” by Sue Wallis, Range Mag 2010.

[WWII era Americans] Dug huge pits and drove their cattle into them and then shot them and covered them with lye and dirt so no one could use the meat?!? And then Americans ended up eating horse meat because America ran out of beef?!?

In 1880 6.9 million horses.
In 2010 10 million domestic horses & 70,000 wild horses.
“There is no option for horse owners who can no longer afford to keep a horse and want to get some value out of it. The result is an explosion of abandoned and neglected animals…”

“The China consume 100 million tons per year [of horse meat]…” other countries that consume horse meat: Mexico, Europe, Italy, Scandinavia, Belgian, France, and Canada.

As we know, Florida, ten years after this article, still has an issue with folks stealing horses from fields to sell horse meat on the black market. [IMO: This behavior is unforgivable, unnecessary, and is so awful -to take someone's horse to slaughter for meat to sell on the black-market.]

Ms. Wallis asks, “Is it moral for human beings to eat horses?” She states, “200,000 toxic, drug-ridden domestic and wild-horse carcasses every year … [are disposed of].”

She argues, “It is arrogant and insensitive for animal rights advocates to disrespect the culinary traditions of others. And why should they put off-limits a vast, renewable source of high-quality protein that could be used to feed 17,000 children a day who die from malnutrition around the world?”

2010: “Google Earth photo counts indicate more than 100,000 horses on the public range” Interesting that they use Google Earth images to count animals!

The next article I'm reading is a bit more uptempo "A Real Mustang Rescue" by Lucia Roda (the 4th of 4 articles).


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## WildAbtHorses

Here are links to other articles that have been brought to my attention about "off-range long-term holding pastures" that are on my reading list too: 

https://thepioneerwoman.com/confessions/the-wild-horses/

https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/get-involved/public-off-range-pastures

https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/wildhorse_OffRange PasturesFAQ_10.14.16.pdf

https://www.westernwhitetail.com/blm-seeking-new-off-range-wild-horse-burro-pasture-bids/

https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/a...rivate-pastures-for-wild-horses/#.Xi9Ymy2ZPox

It's not that I'm a slow reader, it's I'm a bit busy these days. Happy trails!


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## Hondo

The recent links posted are not working for me. I did go back and check Redflower's links and they do still work for me.


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## WildAbtHorses

Wild horses along the Swiss-Italian border Jul 23, 2010

“Nine years ago a bunch of horses began roaming freely along the mountainous Swiss-Italian border. Swiss and Italians - not always on the friendliest of terms - started an association to support this population of wild horses.” 3:27 minute video






Wild horses of Aveto Park (Italy) Posted on September 22, 2016 by Chiara Marras
“It all started when the owner of a small group of domestic horses died. Now they were orphans, they*have had to adapt to the hard winters of the Apennines, surviving and adapting perfectly to the new condition. Thus, the new generations have never had contact with the man, living in total autonomy for 365 days a year.

But you know, the relationship*with man is not easy. Thus, in 2009 two horses*were killed with guns. Since then, two Italian women, Paola Marinari and Evelina*Isola, have begun to protect these wild horses, and then they founded in 2012 the Horsewatching project in which the horses have become resource and emblem of the Aveto Park territory”

Google Q&A:
“a pack of about 40 wild horses has been roaming freely, through pastures and beech trees, in the Regional Natural Park of Aveto, in Liguria.Jun 5, 2017”

Wild Horsewatching I Cavalli Selvaggi dell’Aveto. by Evelina Isola. 2015?
https://wildequus.org/2015/08/03/aveto-horses-we/

Hi. YouTube's algorithm brought this herd to my attention. I find it interesting and would like to know how large the herd is today in 2020. It sounds like they are having similar debates as Americans.


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## WildAbtHorses

RE: Meat Eater Podcast and Article

“Sterilize or Slaughter? America’s Feral Horse Problem” by David Hart Jun 13, 2019
https://www.themeateater.com/conservation/habitat/whats-the-solution-to-the-feral-horse-problem

“The BLM offers horses for adoption with some degree of success, giving away more than 240,000 since 1971 (2,500 were adopted in 2015). Some adopters get up to $1,000 for taking a horse, and the federal agency spent more than $8 million on its adoption program in 2018.”

“As Steve Rinella pointed out in Episode 126 of the MeatEater Podcast, Phillips’ logic is pretty sketchy. Janis Putelis also noted numerous examples of areas with no lion hunting and a gross overpopulation of horses, the most glaring example being California. The state has not had a lion hunting season since 1972 and has as many as 6,000 cougars. They also have nearly 11,000 wild horses, five times the BLM’s appropriate management level.”

“Conservationists have agreed that there’s too many horses, but now we need to agree on how to fix it. Nature isn’t going to sort itself out on this one.”


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## WildAbtHorses

East Coast - Horse World Expo - Feb27-March1 - Live Mustang Event
﻿
https://www.facebook.com/RescuedtoStardom/

https://www.horseworldexpo.com/rescued-to-stardom/

https://www.horseworldexpo.com/pa-event-descriptions/

Rescued to Stardom
The NEWEST event at Horse World Expo, follow the journey of 10 rescue horses and their trainers as they go from unbroke to Stardom at Horse World Expo.* Their scores count on YOU!* Vote for your favorite Star on our FACEBOOK page.* Each horse will then compete live on Friday in an in-hand freestyle and Saturday in a ridden freestyle.* While each horse will be competing for cash and prizes, EVERY horse is a winner as they will be available for adoption through their respective 501c3 rescues after the event.


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## WildAbtHorses

My questions to The Pioneer Woman and The Marlboro Man are:
“Why don’t they mention the veterinarian, dental, hoof care costs for the wild horses on their ranch?”
“What do they do with the foals?”
“Do they sell the foals for profit?”
“Do the cowboys train and use the wild horses for ranch work?”


https://thepioneerwoman.com/confessions/the-wild-horses/
The Wild Horses by Marlboro Man on May 21, 2012

“... As part of the wild horse program, the government pays you per horse per day at the end of every month. Another key advantage to running the horses is that you don’t have millions of dollars tied up in inventory; when a horse dies of old age, it’s sad of course. But it doesn’t cost you a thousand dollars as it would if one of your cows or steers dies.

... Once we get the horses acclimated, the next challenge is weaning their foals. Since many of them arrive bred, the end of the first year they’re here, we have to gather them to the pens and wean any offspring.

... But with cattle, there’s much more working involved in order to keep them healthy. You have to doctor sick ones, treat foot-rots, prolapses, etc.”

Found this follow up article:
https://rtfitchauthor.com/2017/11/1...ly-23-9-million-in-rent-over-the-past-decade/

BY DEBBIECOFFEY ON NOVEMBER 14, 2017 
Pioneer Woman Ree Drummond is revealed as 23rd largest landowner in US with 433,000 acres – and the government paid her family $23.9 MILLION in rent over the past decade.


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## WildAbtHorses

BLM Public Off-Rang Pastures
https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/get-involved/public-off-range-pastures

4,700-acre ranch in the Centennial Valley west of Laramie, WY provides a natural home to 350 wild horses gathered from public rangelands

southeastern Oklahoma, 350 wild horses graze this 3,500-acre ranch owned

1,700 acres of pristine Kansas*prairie south of the Smoky River near Ellsworth, KS, the Svaty Ranch provides an idyllic home for 225 horses gathered from public rangelands throughout the West.

Wild River Ranch 225 wild horses
https://www.windriverwildhorses.com

IMO: It sounds like the American Govt have wild horses in the wild, on cattle ranches, in sanctuaries, in rescues, and in almost every state.

Shouldn’t we start believing in “COMPENSATORY REPRODUCTION” as Dr. Jay Kirkpatrick studied, wrote about, and lectured on.


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## WildAbtHorses

“BLMs off Range Pastures (ORP) frequently asked questions”
https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/wildhorse_OffRange PasturesFAQ_10.14.16.pdf

The BLM has more than 25 ORPs ranging in size from 1,000 acres up to 35,000 acres; the average size is 20,000 acres. There are no ORPs for wild burros.


FYI No where do they mention dental or hoof care.
25 pastures (times) 300 horses = 7,500 wild horses on ORP???


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## WildAbtHorses

BLM Seeking New Off-Range Wild Horse, Burro Pasture Bids by Google Alerts | Jun 27, 2018 
https://www.westernwhitetail.com/blm-seeking-new-off-range-wild-horse-burro-pasture-bids/

“New public off-range pastures are a more cost-effective and efficient approach to managing costs for animals in holding while providing the public with opportunities to view wild horses in a natural setting.”

Sorry, what???


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## WildAbtHorses

Facing rampant overpopulation, BLM seeks more private pastures for wild horses Written by Associated Press March 9, 2019

https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/a...rivate-pastures-for-wild-horses/#.XjW38C9Onmq

“Many consider rounding up wild horses to live out their lives on private pastures a reasonable approach to a tricky problem.”

“You need a lot of fenced-in land, enough to sustain anywhere from 200 to 5,000 healthy horses.”

“The pastured horses typically are left on their own with little human intervention.”

“Over two-thirds of the 37 existing off-range pastures are in Oklahoma and Kansas.”

Note: it is now 37 compared to the 25 mentioned in the previous link

I’m exhausted.


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## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> My questions to The Pioneer Woman and The Marlboro Man are:
> “Why don’t they mention the veterinarian, dental, hoof care costs for the wild horses on their ranch?”
> “What do they do with the foals?”
> “Do they sell the foals for profit?”
> “Do the cowboys train and use the wild horses for ranch work?”



There is no veterinarian care for wild horses on the range whether public or private. Wild horses provide their own dental care from the silicon in the grasses they eat, as they have done for millions of years. Same with hoof care. Hoof care is only needed by confined animals that do not travel enough to provide natural hoof care.


The only foals are those that come with mares that became pregnant on the wild range. Not sure why they wean them at the end of the first year there, but based on both experience and reading, a foal (or calf) will not be weaned by the mother at the normal time if the mother is not pregnant or doesn't have another offspring. Again, don't know but I'm guessing after a period of time the foals are turned back with the herd. That's how it was done on the ranch where I was with a small herd of 20+ domesticated horses.


My read was the horses are left entirely wild which means the cowboys do not tame or gentle them.


This is the huge huge monetary savings for laparoscopy spaying of mares and turning them out on designated NForest property. No feed cost, no veterinarian costs, ho hoof care cost, no animal disposal cost. Done deal.


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## boots

WildAbtHorses said:


> I’m exhausted.


Welcome. It's a big club. 

I'm not being sarcastic. Many are tired that nothing changes in the management of the feral herds. 

Recreationists, who see the range being degraded and see less diversity in wildlife as they hike and bike. Include hunters in that group. Hunters wonder why their fees don't "mean anything" in terms of what species are favored. Water conservationists, who monitor water availability and quality on rangelands. Rangelands specialists, who bemoan the destruction of native forage and observe the spread if invasive grasses. Ranchers, who seem the most stoic about the situation at times.

Then get down to the smaller special interest groups. Those who care about native reptiles or wild birds that depend on riparian places. There is a host of them.

Finally, the average taxpayer, who when he finds out "the kind of money they give to these horses" is outraged.


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## Hondo

My rant continues to be laparoscopic spaying where the ovaries are not even removed and the mare can be returned to work in as little as two weeks or less.


It is absolutely the only resolution that will work short of removing all herds, which isn't going to happen.


Darting simply is not possible on the larger herds. It's not even close to a solution.


Laparoscopy is somewhat expensive now but still cheaper than 20 years plus full care. And there is a shortage of trained individuals. But it would not be necessary for a person to have a full veterinarian degree to be professionally trained to perform a laparoscopic equine spay. The BLM could run a program by outside professionals doing the training.


In the beginning, mares could be turned out to Forest Service pastures in non-reproducing herds. At the same time, some of the mares from roundups that are turned back to the range could be spayed which would reduce the reproduction levels of the herds.


To combat compensatory reproduction, compensatory spaying could be done until birth rate levels began to level the population.


Meanwhile the aging horses in the National Forest would be dying from old age and eventually the non-reproducing herds would be no more.


Only the reproducing herds would be left with population controlled by spaying a determined % of the mares.


This is the long term solution that will work. The only long term solution that will work. The groups fighting this solution are doing a great disservice to the Mustangs and their habitat.


https://thehorse.com/152142/spaying-mares-with-newer-safer-methods/


BTW, I watched laparoscopy being performed on my Dad's tumor over 30 years ago. He was fully conscious and with me watched the screen showing the tube worming it's way inside. I don't know what pain medication he had if any, but he could talk and answer questions.


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## Hondo

Some very good news!


*WASHINGTON*— The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) announced today that it reached a significant milestone by placing 7,104 wild horses and burros into private homes nationwide during Fiscal Year 2019 (which ended September 30). This is the highest number of adoptions and sales the agency has seen over the last 15 years and represents a 54 percent increase (nearly 2,500 animals) over the previous year’s total of 4,609 animals


https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro


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## WildAbtHorses

^ It is excellent news, but doesn't that statistic concern you a little bit? I want more information and follow-ups in a year to know where those horses are and what they are doing.


Re: Laparoscopic spaying
“It is absolutely the only resolution that will work short of removing all herds.” -Hondo

“Spaying Mares With Newer, Safer Methods” by Heather Smith Thomas Mar 2, 2004
https://thehorse.com/152142/spaying-mares-with-newer-safer-methods/

“In a study done at the University of California, Davis, in 1999-2000 by Tom Yarbrough, DVM, and Chris Hanson, DVM, on eight mares, it was found that ovaries degenerated and became non-functional after the blood supply was tied off. There was no evidence of infection, pain, revascularization (re-establishment of blood supply), or adhesions following the procedure, and the mares’ hormone levels no longer fluctuated.”

“Both vets said that this method is easier, and it causes less complications or discomfort. It eliminates the need to remove ovaries, and thus eliminates the risk of bleeding. Surgical time is shorter, incision size is smaller, and mares recover quickly and can return to work sooner.”

IMO: We need experts (more data & research) on how wild horses and burro populations regulate in the wild. What are the control factors like water and food availability, range limits, other herds in the area, human encroachment, etc.?

Sterilizing a herd (mares and/or stallions) may not necessarily be the answer, and, I imagine, it certainly wouldn't be easy.


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## WildAbtHorses

But Hondo, you may be correct, "removing all herds." Isn't that what the U.S. Gov't BLM has been "kind of" trying to do for the last 50-years?

Now that America has so many ORP (off-range pastures), why not keep these herds and have public "ownership" of the wild horse herds be more formal, humane, and controlled. Easier to care for, study, access (view), and maintain.

“New public off-range pastures are a more cost-effective and efficient approach to managing costs for animals in holding while providing the public with opportunities to view wild horses in a natural setting.” -Google Alerts Jun 27, 2018


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## Hondo

No, I don't believe the the Gov/BLM has been trying to remove all herds but rather to reduce the numbers toward the "AML".


The ORPs are not low cost and will only increase over time as more and more horses are removed from over populating herds. ORPs are not a long range permanent solution.


Agreed. The mass spaying of a number of mares would not be easy, nor is it for stallions as is now being done on all gathers. But yes, it would involve much more for the mares. Expensive portable equipment would need to be located at holding areas for gathers with a team of laparoscopy technicians. But then finding or providing homes for all those horses is not easy either. One of my friends has a saying he likes to often repeat when faced with difficulties, "Nothing is ever easy, is it?"


Bottom line. The population must be eventually somehow controlled. With dogs and cats, it is humane euthanization. The 1971 ACT allows for that but there seems to be many times the reluctance to that than would be for a humane and largely risk free spaying.


I'm just one voice and one brain where others have more knowledge and experience. I do not have a corner on anything but only express my opinion based on my own experience and knowledge.


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## Hondo

Requiring or needing more data is just, IMO, kicking the can farther and farther down the road. More than sufficient data is available. Time to pull the trigger (make a decision and act).


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## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> ^ It is excellent news, but doesn't that statistic concern you a little bit? I want more information and follow-ups in a year to know where those horses are and what they are doing.



It is not great news for all the horses. But it is for some.


Less than 1/2 mile from me is a gentleman with 3 tattooed BLM horses. A lady bought them from a kill pen and asked the man whom she knew if he would take them and he did. He reports that he is handling two of them all over but one is a problem. If I had the resources, I would offer to take on the third.


The horses had all been adopted over one year ago at which time control and follow up by the BLM is discontinued and the sale of the horses becomes legal.


So yeah, each and every adoption is not all fun and roses and why my personal choice is to control population by spaying.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ What if WH herds finally got reduced to the correct sizes, by whatever means, and some horse owner who no longer wants his horse(s) anymore just lets them go free!?! I am for computer chipping all horses.

Re: returning to Redflowers article links. The following article, with its "catchy title" and heartwrenching pictures, is emotionally charged and all over the place.

“Ignoring the Rule of Law: Thanks to activists and feckless bureaucrats, a lawless West is reemerging.” By Rachel Dahl Range Magazine Winter 2015/2016 p.60-65.
http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/winter-16/range-wi16-ignoring-law.pdf

“…federal government employees, local politicians, ranchers, wild-horse activists, wildlife supporters, state water regulators, lawyers, and judges…” [no mention of the general public involvement or a professional mediator (Okay, judges should be unbiased, but a really good mediator is required NOW!)]

[WHB Act] "...states that horses should be maintained at the same levels and in the same places as found in 1971... when the law was passed, there were less than 10,000 horses in the state [Nevada]. Since that time, close to a quarter-million horses have been adopted out from the ranges by BLM, and close to 50,000 more are on welfare in holding facilities or on farms and ranches in the Midwest. Even so, there are about 30,000 left on Nevada ranges, while the BLM’s “appropriate management level” is 12,811."

"... solar energy came to town, and the ranches were up for grabs, getting sold off for the development of the green-energy industry to meet the needs of a state whose elites are committed to divesting fossil fuels from the energy production industry."

"... dwindling revenues as gold prices drop and mining companies close shop.." and "... Nevada’s biggest gold mines are laying off employees and selling off property..."

Note: This “private” branding of WH is new to me.

“… the 12 brand is registered to Kelly Burroughs in Ruby Valley” and “…he could legally catch any or all of those horses and dispose of them in any way he sees fit.”

[Kevin and Sue] “Borba says [Shawna] Richardson told him: “We branded the studs with a 12 and the mares with a K.” Then Borba said, “KB is my name.”

“If the scientific data—that horse herds double every four years—is correct, there will be 604 head on the HMA by 2019.”

Note: BLM removes 558 wild horses from Fish Creek HMA (Nev.) September 19, 2019
https://returntofreedom.org/blm-set-to-capture-600-wild-horses-from-fish-creek-hma-nev-2/


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## Hondo

RE: ^ What if WH herds finally got reduced to the correct sizes, by whatever means, and some horse owner who no longer wants his horse(s) anymore just lets them go free!?! I am for computer chipping all horses.


Comment: That has happened and still happens. I once viewed a herd of "wild" horses in Nevada where one was wearing a halter.


All or at least most rescued dogs are sterilized and chipped with the new owner required to place his name/address/phone etc on the chip with the company's chip, which I recently did.


This I'm sure reduces the dumping of rescued dogs. But if the owner dumps and moves with no forwarding address it would be difficult and costly to find them. But still, I'm in favor of the chipping but to require it of all dog owners might be difficult to enforce, but still a good idea in my mind.


And a good idea for horses too perhaps. It'd take someone with more details of a cost/benefit analysis data to have a meaningful opinion on that I'm thinking.


For dogs and cats it's one thing, but for horses that are considered livestock along with cows and goats, it'd be another thing altogether.


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## Hondo

Did not know this..........


"The Forest Service manages approximately 7,100 wild horses and 900 wild burros on 53 wild horse and burro territories on approximately 2.5 million acres of National Forest System lands in 5 Forest Service regions, 19 national forests, and 9 states."


https://www.fs.fed.us/wild-horse-burro/territories/index.shtml


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## boots

Hondo said:


> Did not know this..........
> 
> 
> "The Forest Service manages approximately 7,100 wild horses and 900 wild burros on 53 wild horse and burro territories on approximately 2.5 million acres of National Forest System lands in 5 Forest Service regions, 19 national forests, and 9 states."
> 
> 
> https://www.fs.fed.us/wild-horse-burro/territories/index.shtml


Yeah. The National Grasslands, I think there's 20 total, are all under the USDA Forest Service. 

It takes patience to explain that to tourists who expect trees on anything "Forest Service." They get indignant about the lack of trees.

Many think ranchers cut the trees down to make room for their cattle. Good grief.


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## Hondo

Hee hee. I have a cousin that is a PETA member. I told her that Dad classified the plant kingdom into weeds and food therefore trees were just big weeds. I thought she was a gonna faint right there. She's my cousin. I love her in spite. Sorta.


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## Hondo

Not to add controversy to an already controversial topic.......but I just couldn't pass this up. Hee


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## WildAbtHorses

^ a sad but true depiction of the situation 

Here is another summary from Redflower's article links:

"Up Front: The heart of reality" by C.J. Hadley Range Magazine Summer 2010 p.4 & 59.
http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/summer-10/su10-range-up_front.pdf

"There are supposed to be 166 horses on his range, but 10,000 have been gathered in the past 20 years, with 800 more ready to roll."

"There were no “wild” horses out there in 1971. All loose horses were owned by a ranch, and some of the estrays were caught by mustangers to train or sell. It kept the horses healthy and in check. Each spring, ranchers gathered the horses, culled the sick, old, injured or deformed to sell for dog food, and picked the best to train for riding or ranch work. They branded the foals before turning them back out and occasionally added a good stud to improve the quality of the herd." Hank Vogler, a sheep rancher

"The WH&BA states that the managing agency, the BLM: not designate acreage for wild horses; is mandated to protect the natural ecological balance of all wildlife species; has authority to remove excess animals to achieve appropriate management levels; and should adopt out excess if possible and destroy humanely if no demand exists."

"The problem is not with the law; it’s the lack of political will to follow it due to the emotional wails of animal rights activists, country singers, and Hollywood celebrities."

Celebrities mentioned or quoted in the article:
Madeleine Pickens (T. Boone’s 3rd wife - I did not know this fact!)
Willie Nelson 
Sheryl Crow 
Lily Tomlin
Bill Maher
Ed Harris 
Bo Derek


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## WildAbtHorses

As for "Requiring or needing more data is just, IMO, kicking the can farther and farther down the road. More than sufficient data is available. Time to pull the trigger (make a decision and act)." -Hondo

Yes, let's "make a decision and act," so how do you propose that? "United We Stand & Divided We Fall." 

Founding Father John Dickinson in his pre-Revolutionary War song "The Liberty Song", first published in the Boston Gazette in July 1768. In the song Dickinson wrote: "Then join hand in hand, brave Americans all! By uniting we stand, by dividing we fall!". - wikipedia

IMO: Yes, more in-depth data collections, more research studies, more colleges and universities involvement, more general public involvement, more education and engagement. Why accurate and thorough data? Can't solve the problem without the facts.

IMO: Open realistic, humane, and pragmatic discussions must happen across America for wild and domestic no matter their situation. IMO: America has an abundance of horses, and the excess ones are suffering terribly.

IMO: Americans can do better, and just one great example is Best Friends Animal Society in Utah. https://bestfriends.org

IMO: There can be no resolution without open dialog, hopefully one that is not emotionally charged and is realistic and in the best interest of the planet.


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## Hondo

The thing I keep having difficulty with is that with estimates of approximately 2.1 million bovines on the BLM and with approximately 50
60,000 equines, how the horses get blamed for so much of the damage.


I agree, studies and facts from those studies need to be done to arrive at a correct decision. But I continue to believe more than adequate studies and facts from those studies have been established that would allow the decision makers to decide once their hands were untied.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ Where are the unbiased, objective studies? I want to read them and share them with the public — education is the key to any solution.

IMO: With today's technologies, the possibilities for efficient and effective data collection, analysis, reporting, and management are so exciting to consider.

We're Americans! When we make up our minds, we will reach an acceptable solution (an excellent mediator will be required). And, within months, if not days, we Americans will be implementing a satisfactory long-term solution. 

The caveat is... the solution is dependent on education and engagement. Yes, as always, education is the key to the solution.


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## WildAbtHorses

Found some... now I need to read.

America's Wild Horses and Burros—Research to Support Management by Fort Collins Science Center Oct 18, 2016
https://www.usgs.gov/centers/fort/s...ce_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects

Managing America's wild horses and burros by John S.Boyles (date?)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080686800533

"A wild horse and burro advisory board was established in 1986 to advise the Secretaries of the Interior and Agriculture on matters pertaining to management, protection, and control of wild horses and burros on the Nation's public lands."

RUNNING WILD, RUNNING FREE?: CHANGING PERCEPTIONS OF WILD HORSES IN THE AMERICAN LANDSCAPE A Dissertation Submitted to the Graduate Faculty of the North Dakota State University of Agriculture and Applied Science by Andrea Lynn Mott May 2014
https://library.ndsu.edu/ir/bitstre...American Landscape.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


Have seen this one before:
Wild Horses and Burros Long-Term Management Options for the Bureau of Land Management's Wild Horse and Burro Program by Steve Tryon July 16, 2019
https://www.doi.gov/ocl/wild-horses-and-burros-0


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## Hondo

Read the last one, slowly with concentration, https://www.doi.gov/ocl/wild-horses-and-burros-0 , and was impressed with the report.


It would appear to be the BLM is squeezing the trigger, albeit ever so slowly and cautiously. I'm also resting my case as some form of spaying becoming the final answer sometime in the future.


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## WildAbtHorses

To implement change, public opinion must be on your side. The issue is how to get American's to accept our natural pioneer's spirit of practicality over pure raw emotions to survive and prosper.

IMO: Opening tiny and local humane processing of horse meat with strict rules, regulations, and oversite for global consumption is a good idea. This will require a significant change in the public's attitude of the consumption of a highly available, inexpensive, and healthy protein.

Uhm... How do you think the cattle industry and their lobbyists will react? 

If American's did consume horse meat, it might save the rainforest? I thought I read recently where South America's cattle ranchers are the ones tearing down the rainforest to raise beef for the global market place.

Interesting?

"Sell a good night’s sleep --not the mattress." -Casper


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## Hondo

Would you support that concept for dogs also?


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## boots

Hondo said:


> The thing I keep having difficulty with is that with estimates of approximately 2.1 million bovines on the BLM and with approximately 50
> 60,000 equines, how the horses get blamed for so much of the damage.


It seems many don't know, and others forget, that cattle are on public lands for mere weeks a year and the lease holders have to make different improvements. 

While the horses are there year round and it's against federal law to influence their habits in any way.


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## WildAbtHorses

Interesting... Shouldn't fences, roads, and development be included in "influence their habits." Reminder: Equus caballus native, bovines not.

As for canines... I have a different idea about what American's can do with America's surplus of dogs. Humans helping canines and canines helping humans. Canine-Human Interaction Centers. Thanks for asking!


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## Hondo

Around here, here being the ranch I was on and it's vicinity in a 30 mile or so radius, most all BLM land is year around grazing with no removal at all. The only removal that I know of in this vicinity is National Forest grazing.


So it would be interesting to see some sort of spread sheet or an average of some kind indicating the actual AUMs for beef. Then the horse population could be multiplied by 1.5x 12 months for a true comparison. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a horse is considered 1.5 AUM.


I'm seeing estimates of dog euthanasia ranging from 1.5 to 4.5 million per year. Which ever is correct, that's a lot of dog meat.


My feelings are that the US culture has spoken about dog meat and horse meat. We can't, or shouldn't IMO, tell India they should eat cows nor some other countries they should not eat dogs, or some other countries they should not eat horses. That would be disrespectful of their culture.


To recommend to reopen slaughter for horses in the US, to me, IMO, disrespects the dominant feelings that have been spoken by the US culture. Right or wrong.


If the desire is to save the rain forest, human population control is about the only solution I know of.


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## Hondo

Ok. I found in 2015, the BLM receipts totaled $14.5 million at $1.35 per AUM. That comes out to 10,740,740 AUMs. Divided by 12 months comes out to an equivalent of 895,061 cow/calf units on year around pasture. That evens it out some, but cattle still far outnumbers the horses on a year around basis.



Information taken from: https://www.blm.gov/programs/natural-resources/rangelands-and-grazing/livestock-grazing


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## WildAbtHorses

I never answered your question. I provided you with my alternative solution that would eventually lead to no more unwanted dogs (but it would take time to reach that goal). And yes, in the meantime, American's would continue to euthanize way too many canines. As a society, we can do better with Planned Parenthood. In the animal world, that would mean less euthanization and in the human world that would mean less in prisons.

Last year my answer would be an absolute "NO!" However, after almost a year of discussion with you and others, my answer would be yes, with strict rules, regulations, and inspections.

With dwindling natural resources and growing human populations and our encroachment on open spaces, human beings are going to have to become more pragmatic. In the future, it is going to be necessary not to waste anything, especially if we continue on our current path of destruction and misuse.

So, in the interest of future generations, yes, we need to keep an open mind to all options. We now live in a Global Society and must think and be global citizens. IMO.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ My candor may have offended some, but if someone is willing to "pull the trigger" on an animal, they should also be committed to use and honor that life after death.

My wish would be that there were no unwanted animals or humans on the planet. That all have enough healthy food, clean water, and wide-open spaces to share and enjoy. 

I want to reiterate that I am 90-95% vegan, and even though others like to consume beef, pork, deer, etc. I rarely do. I do enjoy once a month a locally raised chicken that had --a happy and healthy life until its end. As for eggs, they too are from a local humane farmer. A few times a year, I will enjoy wild salmon --if I want fish, its sardines, which are sustainability caught. Most of the time, I enjoy butternut squash with granny smith apples, millet with leeks and cauliflower, lots of dark greens, etc.

This thread is to support and help America's wild horses.

God Bless the Mustangs for their strength, courage, perseverance, love, loyalty, and their kind and wild spirits.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Tuesday, Feb11 Denver, CO - Trump/CEQ to change NEPA?*

The National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) gives the public a voice in federally-funded projects that might harm the environment, the climate, our wildlife and public lands.

‪This Tuesday February 11, the Administration’s Council on Environmental Quality (CEQ) is holding a public hearing at the EPA in Denver on rolling back NEPA.

February 11, 2020, U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Region 8, 1595 Wynkoop Street, Denver, CO.

Registration Information: Anyone wishing to attend the public hearing, either as a speaker or as a listener, must register in advance on Eventbrite.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/ceq/nepa-modernization/

And March 10, 2020 meeting in Washington, D.C.


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## WildAbtHorses

*“Who Controls Trump’s Environmental Policy?”*

Should Americans (the global population) be concerned with “Who Controls Trump’s Environmental Policy?” NYTime by By Lisa Friedman and Claire O’Neill Jan. 14, 2020

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...ossil-fuel-industry-environmental-policy.html

“A small number of people at a few federal agencies have vast power over the protection of American air and water.”

“… key officials came from careers in the oil, gas, coal, chemical or agriculture industries, … At least four have direct ties to organizations led by Charles & David H. Koch…”

- - - 
Andrew Wheeler is head of America's EPA and "...has spent the last six months rolling back environmental and health protections."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_R._Wheeler


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## WildAbtHorses

If any one has any tips for training an Australian Brumby, please let Dionne Wilson know your tips:
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/4bp-brumbies-812247/#post1970831573


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## WildAbtHorses

*Great Divide Basin, White Mountain and Salt Wells Creek HMAs*

SALT WELLS CREEK HMA
https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-h...ment/herd-management-areas/wyoming/salt-wells
"A full range of colors is present in this herd *and has a high number of palominos and sorrels with flaxen manes and tails. Other horse colors are bay, brown, black, paint, buckskin, or gray. The Wyoming horses have a diverse background of many domestic horse breeds. They most closely related to North American gaited breeds such as Rocky Mountain Horse, American Saddlebred, Standardbred, and Morgan.

Location:*The Salt Wells HMA encompasses nearly 1,173,000 acres, of which over 724,000 acres are BLM-administered public lands. The majority of the herd management area consists primarily of checkerboard land ownership area created by the Union Pacific Railroad grant in the northern portion. Consolidated public lands with state school sections and small parcels of private land making up the majority of lands in the southern section of the HMA."

My Questions:
- What are they planning on doing with the horses they gather?
- What happens if they miss a few, and they repopulate? Or a rancher "lets go of a few" or a few domestics "get lose."
and the cycle starts all over?

BLM -- January 2020 -- for Wyoming
RMP Amendment and EIS for Wild Horse Management in the Rock Springs and Rawlins Field Offices, Wyoming
https://eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front...12131/250016509/WildHorse_DEIS_Jan24_2020.pdf

- Change the Salt Wells Creek Herd Management Area (HMA) to a Herd Area (HA), which would be managed for zero wild horses, and if the BLM determines there are more than 200 wild horses within the herd area, the area would be re-gathered to zero wild horses;  

- Change the Great Divide Basin HMA to a HA, which would be managed for zero wild horses, and if BLM determines there are more than 100 wild horses within the Herd Area, the area will be re-gathered to zero wild horses.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Jay Kirkpatrick & Compensatory Reproduction - always on my mind*

Jay Kirkpatrick, a wildlife biologist with a Ph.D. in reproductive physiology from the College of Veterinary Medicine at Cornell University.

Fact: Compensatory Reproduction: "The textbooks are correct that there is compensatory reproduction, as man reduce the density of feral animals, their reproduction speeds up to compensate." -J. Kirkpatrick

Fact: Equus caballus is a native wildlife species to North America.

Fact: Fences on public land restrict the natural flow of wild species.

FYI: I don't have any answers, just lots of questions.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Fav Movie: Hidalgo (1890... 2020... US Govt still collecting mustang)*

Hidalgo is a 2004 epic biographical western film based on the legend of the American distance rider Frank Hopkins and his mustang Hidalgo. It recounts Hopkins' racing his horse in Arabia in 1891 against Bedouins riding pure-blooded Arabian horses.

Chief Eagle Horn, who performs alongside Hopkins, approaches Hopkins and Bill about helping the mustangs (wild horses) that have been rounded up by the US government with the intent to euthanize them to make way for farmland. Bill says there's nothing he can do, but Hopkins decides to help out in whatever way he can.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidalgo_(film)


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## WildAbtHorses

Extreme Mustang Makeover - 2020 Challenges:
https://extrememustangmakeover.com

Norco Horse Affair’s Mustang Makeover - 2020 Challenge:
https://www.norcohorseaffair.com

MHF’s Trainer Incentive Program (TIP) - 2020 Challenges:
https://mustangheritagefoundation.org/tip/

Germany’s American Mustang Makeover - 2020 Challenge:
https://www.mustangmakeover.de/mustang-makeover/mustang-makeover-2020/

There are several American Veterans & American Mustang programs, and there are several American Mustang programs for Americans that are incarcerated. IMO there are not enough programs available to both groups. What am I missing?


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## boots

Public interest?


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## WildAbtHorses

^ Sigh, yes.

- - - 
It would appear that America has a substantial “captive” human population too. You would think that we could match-up 100,000 captive wild horses & burros with some them.

It sounds like a "win-win-win" situation --prisons, horses, society all win, therefore it's a "win-win-win" situation.
See the book "Habits of Highly Effective People" by Stephen Covey.

- - - 

In 2016, almost 7 million people were under some control by the correction industry (incarcerated, on probation or parole, etc.). In 2016 2.3 million in prisons? That worked out to be 698 per 10,000?

Federal & State Prisons (2008 #s) 1,518,559
Local Jails (2008 #s) 785,556
Juvenile Facilities (2007 #s) 86,827

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States


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## WildAbtHorses

*Fav Movie: The Wild Horse Redemption 2007 documentary*

Colorado prison inmates taming wild horses Nightly News Jan 2018
https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/colorado-prison-inmates-taming-wild-horses-1131425859739


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## WildAbtHorses

*approximately 16,000+ burros - BLM estimates July2019*

It is great to see the “BLM Burros” post!
https://www.horseforum.com/other-equines/blm-burro-usefulness-812591/

Burro [Spanish for donkey] arrived in the US in the 1600s ... large numbers went west during the gold rush (1800s) as pack animals and for use in mines and ore-grinding mills https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_donkeys

Since the wild burro has no natural predator, competitor, or common diseases, young burros may live as long as 25 years in the wild.
https://www.desertusa.com/animals/wild-burro.html

As of July 2019, the BLM estimates there are approximately 16,000+ burros (in the wild? and a 1,000 in holding?). https://www.doi.gov/ocl/wild-horses-and-burros-0

Washington Post’s “Arizona has a wild burro problem” By Karin Brulliard March 4, 2016, https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...na-john-mccain-wants-congress-to-take-action/

"Wild Burros Overtake Arizona Town" By Daria Dieguts Apr 20, 2019. Small donkeys, often called burros in Arizona, may look cute, but they are a big problem for locals. //youtu.be/OJsusWGEaUo


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## WildAbtHorses

*What is your vision for the future?*

Concern: Accumulating vast numbers of wild horses in holding facilities without proper care.

Questions to You: What is your vision for the future? How do you imagine the next 50, 100 years? How do you create the future you want to be apart of? Does it include wild horses? If yes, what does that entail?

Givens:
- Public lands must be shared and managed by a host of various interests and entities.

- Public lands are being fenced-off and are dwindling in size because of the increased human population and its consumption demands for natural resources.

- Horses (Equus caballus) are native to North America, and according to the National Academy of Sciences, removing wild horses only causes populations to grow faster. See also Jay Kirkpatrick, P.h.D, and compensatory reproduction of wild and feral animal populations

- There are an estimated 2 million horse owners in the United States, and a total of 7.1 million Americans are involved in the industry as owners, service providers, employees, and volunteers. Mostly females.
https://www.ridewithequo.com/the-horse-industry-by-the-numbers/

-There are about 9.2 million horses in the United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horses_in_the_United_States

IMO: It would be helpful to have a comprehensive shared database with statistics (e.g., location, health status, etc.) on wild horses in the wild and in government and private holding facilities. Should all domestic horses be included in the database too?

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) holding facilities:
As of July 2018, there were 43,886 wild horses and 1,434 burros in government holding facilities (8,827 in short-term holding corrals, 35,850 in long-term holding pastures in the Midwest and 643 in eco-sanctuaries). https://returntofreedom.org/facts/

https://www.doi.gov/ocl/wild-horses-and-burros-0
Since 1971, more than 245,000 wild horses and burros have been placed into private care through the BLM’s Adoption and Sales programs. Up until 2006, adoptions held steady above 5,000 annually; however, after that point, they began to decline dramatically. From 1996 to the early 2000s, for example, the BLM placed nearly 8,700 animals with private adopters; however, by 2006, this number had gone down to 5,100 (and down to 2,100 by 2014). Over the past ten years, the number of excess animals gathered has far outpaced adoptions and sales.

United States Wild Horses and Burros Populations:
https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/about/data/population-estimates
State: Wild Horses and Wild Burros
Total in the West: 71,892 and 16,198
Arizona: 534 and 6,915
California: 7,332 and 4,727
Colorada: 1,891 and 0
Idaho: 710 and 0
Montana: 162 and 0
Nevada: 43,281 and 4,187
New Mexico: 241 and 0
Oregon: 4,847 and 30
Utah: 5,058 and 339
Wyoming: 7,836 and 0

"...in [Assateague] Maryland, the US National Park Service asserts ownership of the horses... In Virginia, the horses are privately owned by the Chincoteague Volunteer Fire Department... The 60-90 foals born each year are rounded up and later auctioned off to raise money for the fire department."
https://legacystories.org/storyboard/entry/the-wild-horses-of-assateague-island

In the United Kingdom, all wild horses have owners.

Australia is the world's sixth-largest country by total area and has 1.2 million feral camels, 5 million feral donkeys, and 400,000 feral horses (aka Brumbies).


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## WildAbtHorses

*Googles FAQs About America’s Wild Horses.*

Where Do Wild Mustangs Roam?
More than half of all free-roaming mustangs in North America are found in Nevada (which features the horses on its State Quarter), with other significant populations in California, Oregon, Utah, Montana, and Wyoming. Another 45,000 horses are in holding facilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustang
NOTE: Wiki count of 45,000 seems low. It appears there are more like 66,000 American wild horses in holding facilities. 

Are Mustangs Good Horses?
Kerson believes mustangs that have spent time on the open range in a functioning herd make especially good trail horses. ... "Mustangs are capable of bonding very deeply to their human, just as in the wild they bonded to their herd-mates," says Kerson. "Once they trust you and bond with you, it goes very deep."Sep 27, 2017
https://www.equisearch.com/articles/mustang-horse-breed

Best Places to See Wild Horses:
- Theodore Roosevelt National Park, North Dakota.
- Pryor Mountain Mustangs, Wyoming, and Montana.
- Virginia Range Herd, Nevada.
- Little Book Cliffs Wild Horse Area, Colorado.
- Oatman, Arizona.
https://www.americancowboy.com/travel-archive/best-places-wild-horses


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## WildAbtHorses

*Adopting Wild Horses & Burros via TIP and Mustang Camp in NM*

Wild Horses & Burros' Trainer Incentive Program (TIP):

Make sure you have the appropriate BLM facility requirements.
https://mustangheritagefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/wildhorse_adoption_requirements.pdf

Complete the TIP Trainer Application (office telephone: 512.869.3225. The approval process takes 2-3 weeks. https://mustangheritagefoundation.s...eritage-foundation-tip-application-membership 

Schedule an appointment with BLM to pick up your TIP animal(s).
https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/adoption-and-sales

Pickup Locations: https://mustangheritagefoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/2016-TIP-pick-up-locations-1.pdf

Gentle the horse(s) within 10 to 90 days and receive payment.

TIP trainers may post videos and information about your adopter mustangs. https://www.facebook.com/groups/177812269224731/

Mustang Camp: A New Mexico Non-Profit - Training Wild Horses and Burros for Adoption
https://www.mustangcamp.org/mustang-camp-home
https://www.facebook.com/MustangCamp/

KRQE May 2, 2019


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## WildAbtHorses

*Mustang Trainers*

Oregon woman trains wild mustangs to save them from uncertain future. By Brittany Falkers, April 8, 2019. https://www.kgw.com/article/news/lo...ture/283-50f69344-c879-4d58-bf28-633885b002ca

Rachel Tarnowski Horsemanship
https://www.facebook.com/pg/RachelTarnowskiHorsemanship/videos/?ref=page_internal

Sean Davies Colorado Reinsman
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1ChUgHltLfoo0Oq90icamQ

Elisa Wallace Eventing (and Mustang trainer)
https://www.youtube.com/user/WallaceEventing/featured

There are so many great horse trainers helping America's wild horses & burros.
God Bless them ALL!


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## WildAbtHorses

*Melinda & Bill Gates, Jason Kass, & Davis Guggenheim - Our Horses Need Them*

I watched Netflix's "Inside Bill's Brain" youtu.be/aCv29JKmHNY "A three-part documentary that tells Bill Gates' life story, in-depth and unfiltered, as he pursues unique solutions to some of the world's most complex problems."

Melinda and Bill Gates were inspired to solve the problem because of Jason Kass' NYTimes article, and Davis Guggenheim produced the Netflix documentary. I have contacted all four; please feel free to do the same.

America's horses deserve their attention. It is a very complicated situation that requires immediate and humane solutions; it is an enormous puzzle that will test their ingenuity and problem-solving skills.

See also "Kill Buyer" 28Feb2020 HorseForum Post:
https://www.horseforum.com/horse-ta...readloom&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ed1102


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## WildAbtHorses

*Compiling a Letter to the NYTimes Editors*

What is the story of horses in America? I am attempting to compose a letter to the editors at the NYTimes.

The 2017 National Geographic article by Ben Masters sums-up the general thinking about America's wild horses' situation.

The reality of this story is that it is about both domestically bred horses and the ones born in the wild. Does it come down to the fact that we Americans do not have a humane process for disposing of our unwanted horses?

Courtney Daigle's 2019 article, “Will reinstating horse slaughter in the U.S. improve horse welfare?” She states that “The 150,000 horses per year that are sent to slaughter from the U.S. [to Mexico or Canada] face welfare challenges including long transportation durations, transportation that is not under APHIS oversight, and slaughter outside of USDA jurisdiction.” and that “Currently, there are 9 million unwanted horses in the U.S….” She asks, is it “…the charismatic nature and history of the human-animal relationship with this creature [that] has trumped logic and pragmatism?” And, in my opinion, humanity.

https://animalscience.tamu.edu/2019...e-slaughter-in-the-u-s-improve-horse-welfare/

https://www.beefmagazine.com/animal...ting-horse-slaughter-us-improve-horse-welfare


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## Hondo

Lies, lies, and more lies.


Quote: "Published the Economic Impact of the Horse Industry on the United States documenting that the horse industry in all its segments of racing, showing recreation and other activities involves 9.2 million horses." End Quote


Total population is 9.2 million, not unwanted population.



https://www.horsecouncil.org/accomplishments/2005-accomplishments/



Courtney only got the number of horses right. Not the year or the status of the horses. I now believe nothing she says. I can only hope her employment does not enjoy any innocent tax dollars.


She's looking at other countries butchering and eating hores, "they are doing it, why can't we?". Does that go for EVERYTHING other countries are doing? Are we leaders or followers?


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## Hondo

Quote: " In 2017 the AHC launched its first horse industry economic survey since 2005. The resulting “2017 Economic Impact Study of the U.S. Horse Industry,” released in February 2018, put the current U.S. equine population at 7.2 million—a 2 million decrease from 2005. Lenz points to two possible reasons for this population contraction: ......................................



Despite an overall smaller horse population, current estimates on the number of unwanted horses range from 100,000 to 150,000, says Lenz, but he believes it could be well above those numbers, based on his back-of-napkin calculations that include breed registration data, population age, and slaughter export numbers. End Quote


https://thehorse.com/160071/homeless-horses-an-update-on-unwanted-horses-in-the-united-states/


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## Hondo

https://equimed.com/news/general/wh...humanely-euthanizing-and-disposing-of-a-horse


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## WildAbtHorses

*The More You Know; The More the Complexity Hits You*

^ thanks for the links -very interesting & here are my take-aways:

How true: “The more you know about it, the more difficult the solution seems,” says Tom Lenz, DVM, Dipl. ACT.
- - - 
American Horse Council: Your Unified Voice in Washington - 2005 ACCOMPLISHMENTS
https://www.horsecouncil.org/accomplishments/2005-accomplishments/

"Published the Economic Impact of the Horse Industry on the United States documenting that the horse industry in all its segments of racing, showing recreation and other activities involves 9.2 million horses, has a total economic impact on the U.S. of $102 billion, supports 1.4 million full-time jobs, pays $2 billion in taxes and includes 4.7 million Americans."

- - - 

What's the Real Cost of Humanely Euthanizing and Disposing of a Horse? by Flossie Sellers. 03/14/2014.
https://equimed.com/news/general/wh...humanely-euthanizing-and-disposing-of-a-horse

"Some opponents of legislation to end horse slaughter like to argue the high cost of euthanasia and disposal; however, this survey shows that humane euthanasia and carcass disposal is highly affordable and widely available.

Out of 94 organizations surveyed across the U.S.A., 87% reported the cost of euthanasia to be less than $300.* Out of 104 organizations offering disposal services, 75% reported the cost of disposal to be less than $300.

While cremation can be expensive, the cost of having the horse’s carcass transferred to a landfill can be as low as $50.* These costs are a virtual drop in the bucket when it comes to the overall expense of keeping a horse, and are simply a part of responsible horse ownership."

The Homes for Horses Coalition is supported by the ASPCA (The American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals®), the Animal Welfare Institute and The Humane Society of the United States’ Jeannie Dodson Equine Protection Fund.* "It is dedicated to ending horse slaughter and other forms of equine abuse, while promoting growth, collaboration and professionalism in the equine rescue and protection community."
https://homesforhorses.org

- - - 

“Homeless Horses: An Update on Unwanted Horses in the United States” by Michelle Anderson. Aug2018.
https://thehorse.com/160071/homeless-horses-an-update-on-unwanted-horses-in-the-united-states/

Why Horses End Up Unwanted: Horses end up displaced for a variety of reasons related to their health, performance, behavior, and owner situations. Ms. Anderson lists 10 reasons including: Overbreeding Injudicious breeding can lead to horses with conformational problems, the aforementioned genetic conditions, lack of intended use, and overpopulation.

The WaterShed Animal Fund, a division of the Arnall Family Foundation -focused on promoting, retraining, and rehoming horses it refers to as “horses in transition.” “OCCC (Oklahoma City Community College Foundation) awarded $200,000 Arnall Family Foundation grant. November 26, 2019” https://arnallfamilyfoundation.org

Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society
“Sadly, many unwanted horses suffer in hoarding situations or face starvation until—hopefully—law enforcement intervenes, says Jennifer Williams, PhD, who runs Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society, in College Station, Texas, and offers consulting services for rescue and rehoming organizations. Bluebonnet’s primary focus is horses that are a part of welfare investigations, which usually comprise at least 50% of the organization’s foster program population. Cases like these involving criminal charges can stretch over months and years as they move through the court system.”

- - - 
BTW: yes, I agree with you that Courtney needs to recheck her number for unwanted

IMO: It is always good to see “repurposing” of a horse.


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## WildAbtHorses

*17 different facial expressions*

“Not Only Can Horses Read Your Facial Expressions, They'll Hold It Against You Later” by Mike McRae 2018. https://www.sciencealert.com/horses-recognise-and-remember-emotional-human-facial-expressions

“We know that horses are social creatures and recent research shows that they use up to 17 different facial expressions to communicate with each other. We’ve also discovered that they’re able to interpret the expressions in our faces, which enables them to form bonds with humans.” PBS’ Equus: Story of The Horse






They include raising inner eyebrows (“puppy-dog eyes”) to show fear, surprise, or sadness; pulling back lip corners (smiling) in greeting or submission; and opening eyes wide to indicate alarm. Wathan says these findings can help us better understand interspecies relationships. National Geographic AU 2017 https://www.nationalgeographic.com.au/animals/horses-make-facial-expressions-just-like-humans.aspx


And, of course, we've all heard about "World's Smartest Dog? Meet a Border Collie Whose Memory Astounds Chaser the dog has been taught to identify more than 1,000 objects." by Bradley Blackburn, 2011.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Loving the Wild Ones in a Time of Pandemic - C. Roe*

1. In times of crisis, many steps forward to help, and others, sadly, take advantage. You’ve no doubt heard of the Administration’s sudden move to stop anti-pollution enforcement. How far this reaches and how quickly it will be challenged is not yet clear: https://thehill.com/policy/energy-e...pobOEu-6laT-g1OMSlnsJc_WamqpvXQ5s8qFObsEK5FdU

2. Meanwhile, the BLM plans to move toward removing three-quarters of the Black Mountain wild burro herd, the largest of those remaining in the West. The deadline for commenting on this very biased environmental assessment is this Wednesday, April 1. FYI here are my comments and an alert sent by The Cloud Foundation. 
https://thecloudfoundation.salsalab...tent&eId=199a2f2a-d848-46ca-9fd1-2de55b8134d2

You can sign the TCF petition above. Please also consider making a few points directly through the BLM portal: https://eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front.../commentSubmission.do?commentPeriodId=8001186 
Feel free to tailor any of mine. The portal has a strict limit on word characters; only 10,000 are allowed. Be aware, but don’t be scared, that the agency is trying to make commenting trickier, as Ginger Fedak explains below: 

From Ginger's blog posts: The BLM is pushing a 10-year Management Plan that would destroy America’s last large and genetically-healthy wild burro population. The Black Mountain Herd Management Area in Arizona currently has about 1,700 wild burros in a historic herd, and they are cherished by millions of tourists and locals who enjoy and appreciate them. This burro herd is one of the last large, genetically-healthy burro herds and represents approximately 20% of the BLM-managed wild burro population. The BLM’s proposal would roundup 1,250 (nearly 75%) and artificially skew the female-to-male ratio, which would likely cause tremendous social disruption. The BLM is finding new ways to disregard and ignore public input concerning their proposed actions. In their announcement for comments on this particular plan, they note: “The BLM is accepting substantive comments for 30 days, from March 2 through April 1, 2020. Only comments specific to the project will be considered. Comments should contain new technical or scientific information relevant to the proposed action. Comments containing only opinions or preferences will not receive a formal response but may be considered in the BLM’s decision-making process. Multiple comments containing the same information will be responded to once.” 

3. On February 11, Wild Equid League members joined Native American leaders and other eco-activists in Denver to protest plans by the White House to gut the National Environmental Policy Act. As for the fate of the Administration’s proposed NEPA changes, these will likely be challenged in court after a decision record is published.

4. Joanna Grossman of the Animal Welfare Institute aimed the continuing blather by BLM and livestock publicists about wild equids ruining the West. Here’s her excellent oped: 
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2020/02/12/joanna-grossman-failed/

“It is worth remembering that the time of greatest gain in wisdom and inner strength can be the time of greatest difficulty.” -The Dalai Lama


----------



## boots

I'm afraid I don't see anything new proposed by the advocates in your last post.

The stalemate continues. The horses and others in the environment, and the environment itself, continue to suffer. 

And dare I point out the Dalai Lama wasn't changed with managing multi-use public lands in court.


----------



## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> Hidalgo is a 2004 epic biographical western film based on the legend of the American distance rider Frank Hopkins and his mustang Hidalgo. It recounts Hopkins' racing his horse in Arabia in 1891 against Bedouins riding pure-blooded Arabian horses.
> 
> Chief Eagle Horn, who performs alongside Hopkins, approaches Hopkins and Bill about helping the mustangs (wild horses) that have been rounded up by the US government with the intent to euthanize them to make way for farmland. Bill says there's nothing he can do, but Hopkins decides to help out in whatever way he can.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidalgo_(film)
> 
> https://youtu.be/i2sRtzNRDCA


Hidalgo has long been debunked, it's not a "biographical" film and Disney never should've advertised it as such. Very little of Frank Hopkins actual life is known and his story of taking part in an endurance race in the Arabia region has never been independently verified. 

We literally _only_ have his word to go on! The idea of such an important race taking place over such a long period of time and around such a large area and there being no other account of it even existing ((Personal, governmental, native, visitor or otherwise)) is simply a staggering suggestion! Nothing that would've been that notable would've been regulated to a single man's personal account! 

The Hopkins Hoax - Disney versus The World 

http://www.thelongridersguild.com/myth.pdf

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2004/03/is-hidalgo-really-based-on-a-true-story.html 

https://truewestmagazine.com/the-truth-about-hidalgo/ 

------

And for the record, the horse who portrayed Hidalgo in the film was a *Paint*! Not a Mustang.

Here's his pedigree. https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/rh+tecontender


----------



## Hondo

For the stay at homes....


----------



## 281187

Hondo said:


> For the stay at homes....
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPbQ-padfgI


I'm surprised that the BLM is even holding adoptions! 

Oh wait.... 

"This online auction begins Feb. 25 and ends March 3 at 3 p.m. Pacific time.":- From the video's description. 

So this auction has been over and done with for awhile now. 

In fact:- https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/adoption-and-sales/events 

It appears that all auctions and adoption events thru to the middle of _June_ have been cancelled. Even the individual state Corral Facilities are closed ((Or available by appointment only)) for the moment. I would expect more cancellations and closures if COVID-19 isn't brought under control in the US soon. 

Definitely won't be a good year for adoption numbers.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Our Horses During These Turbulent*

Questions I have from a recent e-mail I received from Charlotte:

1. Are protected wild horses rounded up from the Devil’s Garden Wild Horse Territory in the Modoc National Forest?
2. Are these captured mustangs being held at the Double Devil Corrals within that Forest?
3. Is the US Forest Service paid to provide oversight of Modoc National Forest’s wild horse management program?
4. If they are not, are they conducting illegal and abusive practices against these wild horses?
5. Are the captive wild horses being sold for $1?
6. Can one individual can purchase up to 24 horses a day?

9. Is the Modoc staff members determining who gets to buy horses and which buyers get free transportation on a “case by case basis” without clearly defined policies or proper oversight?
10. Who is responsible for reporting the numbers?
11. And are they publishing accurate numbers?
12. What is the number of horses remaining in the corrals?
13. How many horses are being shipped?
14. How many receive free transport across state lines?

Does anyone have answers to these questions?
Do these folks?
Victoria Christiansen Chief, US Forest Service [email protected]
Randy Moore Regional Forester, Pacific Southwest Region, USFS [email protected]
Kristen Sexton Acting Forest Supervisor, Modoc National Forest Supervisor [email protected]


Is there a special blessing we can say for these wild horses?

God Bless America's Wild Horses, and may they happily roam free during these turbulent times.

My thoughts and prayers are with them always.


----------



## 281187

WildAbtHorses said:


> Questions I have from a recent e-mail I received from Charlotte:


Yes, hello. I don't know who "Charlotte" is, but I am a wild horse enthusiast and have been following the Devil's Garden Wild Horse Territory closely. So allow me to answer at least some of your questions.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 1. Are protected wild horses rounded up from the Devil’s Garden Wild Horse Territory in the Modoc National Forest?


Yes, the Forest Service did do a gather of Devil's Garden in October/November of *2018.* 

_932_ horses were captured. _14_ additional horses were also captured, but were euthanized, mostly due to preexisting or chronic health conditions that had poor prognosis for recovery. 

---------

The FS also conducted another, separate gather of the territory in September/October of *2019.* 

During this gathering, _499_ horses were captured. _3_ additional horses were also captured, but were euthanized after acute injuries sustained after the gathering had concluded. 

--------

It should be noted that prior to the *2018* gather, it was estimated that as many _3,900_ 
horses roamed the Territory. 

The maximum AML for this Territory is _402_ horses.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 2. Are these captured mustangs being held at the Double Devil Corrals within that Forest?


That's actually a common misconception. 

Horses up to 10 years or younger and mares with nursing foals were transported to the BLM's Litchfield Corrals and Adoption Center for adoption. Only horses over 10 years were sent to the Double Devil Corrals. 

This reflects the typical agreements usually put in place whenever the FS conducts a gather on one of it's WHT's. The FS and the BLM have worked together for many years to provide adoption options for the FS's wild horses.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 3. Is the US Forest Service paid to provide oversight of Modoc National Forest’s wild horse management program?


The FS is in charge of the Devil's Garden Wild Horse Territory by default. The FS oversees wild horses and burros on FS lands, the BLM oversees wild horses and burros on BLM lands. 

Many BLM HMA's and FS WHT's are managed jointly by both agencies, as most are interconnected or located right next to each other and animals are known to migrate seasonally between both areas.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 4. If they are not, are they conducting illegal and abusive practices against these wild horses?


No, the FS is in the right to be conducting gathers on the Devil's Garden Territory. The Territory had not been gathered for quite some time and during so, the horse population had ballooned to unsustainable levels.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 5. Are the captive wild horses being sold for $1?


Yes, that is correct. But again, not the whole story. 

The $1 horses are those at the Double Devil Corrals, which only includes those who are over ten years old or have been passed over for adoption three times. The sale price was originally set at $25, but was dropped to the current price in 2019. 

It should be noted that the BLM has similar policies for it's sale horse program. Which has been mandated by law since 2005.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 6. Can one individual can purchase up to 24 horses a day?


I don't know.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 9. Is the Modoc staff members determining who gets to buy horses and which buyers get free transportation on a “case by case basis” without clearly defined policies or proper oversight?


This is the FS's sale with _limitations_ application. 

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd656533.pdf 

This is the FS's information page on the Devil's Garden Territory and horses. 

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/modoc/landmanagement/resourcemanagement/?cid=FSEPRD512471 

FS and BLM horses are *not* allowed to be sold to slaughter. In addition, California law makes it illegal to transport horses out-of-state for the purposes of slaughter.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 10. Who is responsible for reporting the numbers?


Who is the "they" referred to in this question?



WildAbtHorses said:


> 11. And are they publishing accurate numbers?


Same as question 10.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 12. What is the number of horses remaining in the corrals?


I don't personally know that myself. 



WildAbtHorses said:


> 13. How many horses are being shipped?


I don't know.



WildAbtHorses said:


> 14. How many receive free transport across state lines?


I don't know.



WildAbtHorses said:


> Does anyone have answers to these questions?


I have some, but you need to get in contact with those in charge on the adoption program and the Double Devil's Corrals if you wish to have all of your questions answered.



WildAbtHorses said:


> Do these folks?
> Victoria Christiansen Chief, US Forest Service [email protected]
> Randy Moore Regional Forester, Pacific Southwest Region, USFS [email protected]
> Kristen Sexton Acting Forest Supervisor, Modoc National Forest Supervisor [email protected]


Yes, please do contact those people. They will either know for sure what you want to know, or can direct you to people who will be able to answer all of your questions.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Excerpts from my recent email from Charlotte:

Montana & fracking!?!? Thank goodness NO fracking, please!

1. Oregon's Forest Service wants to reduce the long-abiding, forest-dwelling Ochoco herd in the Big Summit Wild Horse Territory. Doesn't sound good.

It is good to hear that this herd’s population has been relatively static at 130 horses for many years, which confirms herds can self-regulate their populations.

-The Forest Service MUST BE required to use accurate and complete scientific and research data to determine herd sizes and diversity.

-The Forest Service is only focused on 4,900 acres out of the 25,434 total acres of their territory is being considered?

Other Considerations:
1. Severe damage from 100 years of logging,
2. Cattle grazing on our public land, and
3. Human ATV usage.

Thoughts on the Pryor Joint Management Area Plan (JMAP):

1. The AML of 90-120 is far below the scientifically accepted number to maintain genetic viability (Cothran). Maintaining genetic diversity is a management goal of the scoping document, so AML must be raised to at least 150.

2. DATA, DATA, DATA. Accurate and thorough records are a must maintained, and the data must be available for all American's to view.
-PZP darting must be completed at the correct time of year and be meticulously tracked.
-Herb management - Ex: The Pryors are a unique Spanish herd and cannot be replaced by the introduction of animals from other herds, so other options must be considered.
-Removal cannot be based on dominant bloodlines. Rare/unique traits could be lost forever. Maintaining all bloodlines must be a priority.
-Mares must be allowed to contribute at least 2-3 foals?

3. Mares now foal year-round!?! This can't be good for the mares. Yes, the public needs to keep their distance from wild animals, including wild horses. Yes, post signs reminding humans that wild means wild (e.g., untamed).

4. Helicopter vs. Bait Trapping for removing horses?!? 

5. Leave older horses be! They deserve what they have hard-earned - a life free on the open range.

6. Maintenance and repair of water catchments. Absolutely fix broken catchments!

7. Remove fencing! Yes, NO, fencing!!!

8. PZP should be used instead of sterilization. 

9. Mountain lions should be protected at all costs.

Take Action:
https://secure.everyaction.com/Vt73...M9C83G9aAYH7qobuSKjnAdK6bUlaZQenFQnJImAHWkCQM

Here’s the notice with instructions, including a portal for responding. (please copy/paste the link in your browser): https://content.govdelivery.com/att...er Notice of Wild Horse EA Comment Period.pdf


----------



## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> 1. Oregon's Forest Service wants to reduce the long-abiding, forest-dwelling Ochoco herd in the Big Summit Wild Horse Territory. Doesn't sound good.
> 
> It is good to hear that this herd’s population has been relatively static at 130 horses for many years, which confirms herds can self-regulate their populations.



I've looked at a few sites that puts the herd size at around 60, in 1975 and currently. Wondering where your information came from.


https://www.blm.gov/or/resources/whb/files/BigSummitHMA.pdf


----------



## WildAbtHorses

In its long-delayed report to Congress, the BLM proposes removing 220,000 wild horses and burros over ten years to reach its rigged “appropriate management level” (AML) of 26,690. Cost $1 billion.

IMO 220,000 horses are a lot of horses! Always makes me think... "Bless the Beasts and Children" by Glendon Swarthout 1970.


Your thoughts?


----------



## loosie

^Why do you see the 'Appropriate management level' as 'rigged' WAH?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ RE: rigged

Please disregard the word "rigged" because I do NOT know what is going on with America's wild horses or America's Public Lands.

Does anyone know of a vblogger who is currently providing on-the-ground factual reporting of America's wild horses? If PBS and CNN aren't who is?


----------



## bsms

The problem was the same and just as emotional under whatever government, the numbers and the math don't change. And I doubt any of the Presidents of the last 30 years have spent more than 10 minutes thinking about mustangs overgrazing.

And I would trust the BLM & USFS over CNN & PBS. Science isn't the strong point of most reporters. Doubt most national reporters have ever seen Nevada outside of Las Vegas.


----------



## loosie

Think it's safe (& not pointing finger at any country, state or place of government, to be against rules of forum) to say yes, it would be rather naive for people to blindly trust most governments on many subjects these days...


----------



## loosie

And just saw the poll - haven't been following this - but I couldn't have voted ONE of those anyway, as I'd choose 'all of the above' with a lean towards indigenous flora & fauna.


----------



## bsms

I wouldn't BLINDLY trust any government on any subject, but I think the numbers involving mustangs and burros have been pretty consistent and the trends hard to ignore for decades under multiple administrations. I also have seen no indications the other side has any remotely valid numbers.

If I have to choose between the numbers given by wild horse advocates or the BLM, I'll go with the folks who have been consistent and whose projections of the future often match what then happens a few years later.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ Great points! The following is me rambling on-and-on.

We need fresh eyes and independent research studies, where is Gen-Z?

Shouldn't our universities be providing us with unbiased scientific analysis of public lands and human & animal uses of the land?

An independent non-political/non-affiliated with any special interest groups has to exist if it doesn't already to support this situation.

Unfortunately, this situation may be too political for any constructive conversation, at least, for this particular discussion/forum. It is a highly emotional time in our society.

Is it like a divorce where it's the animals and land that are the innocent bystanders?

Again, I am merely a sideliner praying for happy and healthy wild horses and horse herds in the wild and in holding facilities. It breaks my heart to think that there is something we should and could be doing but aren't.


----------



## RegalCharm

Explain to me why a cow and calf are counted as 1 unit, while a mare and foal are counted as 2 units on the public grazing lands.


----------



## COWCHICK77

RegalCharm said:


> Explain to me why a cow and calf are counted as 1 unit, while a mare and foal are counted as 2 units on the public grazing lands.


Very basic explanation:
It is based on the amount of forage consumed by each animal(weight is also a factor) to determine stocking rates on land.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Giving folks a purpose... a focus... a place to live and care for wild horses (and all the unwanted dogs). 

IMO it makes sense to take non violent folks out of prisons to live with and care for all of America’s wild horses currently in Government holding facilities.

The below link to a podcast confirms we need to educate our youth and provide all a purpose... a job/career. Or at least an opportunity to find their place in life (not in a prison).

Freakonomics “two episodes ... about prisoners — specifically, prisoners and re-employment”

Which Jobs Will Come Back, and When? (Ep. 420) June 3, 2020.
https://freakonomics.com/podcast/reemployment-part-1/

“It may strike you that crime is an unusual topic for an economist. But if you think about crime as an industry, it’s a big one. There are nearly 1.5 million people currently imprisoned in the U.S. It typically costs about $100 a day to lock someone up. So that alone is $150 million a day, or some $55 billion a year. Then there are the costs associated with law enforcement, the criminal-defense and court systems, and so on — all of which produce countless issues that appeal to an economist.”


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Inspiring! The Compton Cowboys.

https://www.comptoncowboys.com/


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/31/us/compton-cowboys-horseback-riding-african-americans.html


https://www.latimes.com/entertainme...ton-cowboys-excerpt-walter-thompson-hernandez

CBS Sunday Morning:


----------



## boots

^^^ I'm a big fan of the Compton Cowboys.


----------



## kewpalace

boots said:


> ^^^ I'm a big fan of the Compton Cowboys.


I am as well - great organization!


----------



## WildAbtHorses

It is my first anniversary on Horse Forum, which represents a year-long journey into America’s wild horses and burros.

I've learned a great deal, created several documents, posted a ton of stuff, and I'm right where I began.

Broken Hearted.

My little 29-page “Wild Horses” booklet:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7

Rescues & Sanctuaries List (work-in-progress):
https://indd.adobe.com/view/a2e47cb6-ea25-4c7e-ad3b-961819fee832

A quick reference:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/87289530-33bb-4fb1-998a-b67c1045e3b3

A one-page timeline:
https://indd.adobe.com/view/47dd072e-4fed-425f-91b0-05bf2452dcb3

My initial presentation (10July2019):
https://spark.adobe.com/page/Fle2tuRJG6XG1/

A short follow-up presentation (Feb2020):
https://spark.adobe.com/page/wuuqtIOxRvW68/


----------



## WildAbtHorses

July 10, 2020, the House Appropriations Committee approved an Interior funding draft for the Fiscal Year 2021 (FY21) that would, among other items, award the Bureau of Land Management $102 million for the Wild Horse & Burro Program. 

We, the American people, need to specify how we want the BLM to spend our hard-earned taxpayer dollars.

Hopefully, by 2021 we will have strong and level-headed leaders in place to make rational and humane decisions about America's overall future.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

The "Down to Earth" Netflix series with Zac Efron and Darin Olien was IMO fascinating.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_to_Earth_with_Zac_Efron

It would be great if "Down to Earth" the second season would focus on America with an episode on America's horses (wild, in captivity, and bred).

Not mentioned in the Iceland episode, but there are new documentaries on how the people of Iceland love their horses/ponies! They take their herds of horses on large group trail vacations across the island. How cool is that!!! Reminds me of Emma Massingale (Ireland?) who does it by herself with her herd of minis and regular horses. And, Tanja and Bettina from Germany and their horses.

Yes, Icelandic horse folks usually own herds of horses, not just a single horse. How cool is that!!!

My wish is that America adopt the horsey life styles of Emma, Tanja, Bettina, and the Icelandic folks. How beautiful and fun that would be!!!


----------



## WildAbtHorses

WildAbt Horses Posted on the Netflix Official Trailer for Efron's Down to Earth series:

IMO the "Down to Earth" Netflix series with Zac Efron and Darin Olien, was fascinating. Thank you! It would be great if the second season would focus on America with an episode on America's horses (wild, captive, and bred). In contrast, you could highlight Emma Massingale from Ireland, Tanja and Bettina "Native Horse" from German, and the Icelandic family horse trail vacations across the island. See Horse Forum for more ideas.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

About older wild mustangs: In the early 1930s Paskett, while he was herding sheep, captured a Mustang he named Tiger. “Tiger became a good saddle horse, though hard to break because he was seven years old and wild as anything I ever saw. He filled out to weigh a thousand pounds when fat, and he had stamina and courage that was hard to equal."
- Parley J. Paskett p.17

- - -

If not, Zac and Darin than another team of entertainers and filmmakers: healthcare or lack of, planned parenthood, financial planning, child-rearing, education, cultures and the arts, prison reform (have prisons care for the wild horses in captivity), to mention a few topics. 

- - -
I agree with you on the story about Joe Schreibvogel. It was all about human drama and not about the unfortunate innocent “wild” cats.

- - -

Did you know that Nat Geo The Dog Whisperer is returning? Why isn’t there a Nat Geo The Horse Whisperer? Where are the Millennials? Generation Z? Where is the Cesar Millan for horses on Nat Geo?

- - -

Iceland Interesting: "Horses are another cute animal often used to represent Iceland. They are very popular to ride, but also tasty. The meat is lean, a bit lighter than beef and much tenderer. ... Like the sheep, most of the horses in Iceland roam free in the mountain areas of Iceland over the summer (save those used for riding)."
https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/eat_and_drink/2016/12/21/12_local_delicacies_to_try_in_iceland/

I skimmed watched “Tails of Iceland” 2019 (a free Amazon Prime video) on Icelandic annual large group vacation trail riding across Iceland with their herds as one large herd. Very cool.


----------



## Hondo

*MODERATORS NOTE:*
There is graphic content in the below video that may be upsetting to some...
Please be aware..


----------



## loosie

Didn't watch the vid above, but I just don't get why eating *horses* is wrong, if eating cows, sheep, chickens... etc is OK? Fair enough if you believe eating any meat is wrong *for you personally*, but it just strikes me as... silly to say it's wrong to eat one animal & not another.


----------



## loosie

WildAbtHorses said:


> Did you know that Nat Geo The Dog Whisperer is returning? Why isn’t there a Nat Geo The Horse Whisperer? Where are the Millennials? Generation Z? Where is the Cesar Millan for horses on Nat Geo?


Oh Dog forbid! Unfortunate for dogs everywhere that Cesar Milan is still kicking IMHO. And there are a few equivalent, domineering 'gurus' in the horse world - Clinton Anderson for one.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^Feeling sad for the animals.

On another sad issue... the Chesapeake Bay:

Swantown Creek: 7.4ppb
Georgetown: 500ppb
Dyer Creek: 500ppb
Turner's Creek: 300ppb

https://www.shorerivers.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay

In Zac Efron’s Paris, France episode they talk about how clean water is free and available for all.
Accueil - Eau de Paris (Search English if you don’t read French)


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I wonder how long this horse was in holding. It seems very accepting of its situation.


----------



## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> I wonder how long this horse was in holding. It seems very accepting of its situation.



The BLM sells 3 levels/prices of horses.


Trained to saddle, which by memory, is around $850


Trained and gentled to halter, $125


Untrained and ungentled, $25


The horse in the video was obviously trained and gentled to halter, which requires a bit of time and properly applied effort on the part of the trainer, often a supervised prison inmate. 



An untrained ungentled horse is a whole different story. Especially one fresh off the range.


It would be a monumental mistake on the part of someone viewing the posted video that the horse was displaying behavior typical of a truly wild horse.


Negative comment: Glad she didn't wreck on the way back with the distracted driving seemingly displayed on parts of the video.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^LOL but she definitely handled that truck and trailer with expertise

An update on the horse... it had been in holding since 2018. IMO it is a very informative video:


----------



## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> ^LOL but she definitely handled that truck and trailer with expertise



Haha. Very cool kid. Yes, I went back to comment on her backup skills but it was past the time limit.


So the horse did have a lot of handling and close up interaction. Again, fresh off the range would have been a lot different.


Surprised about the three strikes. Not clear if she just missed adoption 3 times or was returned 3 times. I had thought 3 strikes was returned 3 times. Many of those do have issues from being mishandled.


Also, any horse 10 YO or older is considered untrainable and sells for $25 with immediate title just like 3 strikes.


Sort of curious about the HMA. Checking California, neither Ridgecrest nor Stardom show up as HMA's.


https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/herd-management/herd-management-areas/california


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ Wow! “ BLM California manages 21 wild horse and burro herd management areas (HMAs) on approximately 2.5 million acres.”

BTW I thought training my puppy would be so easy... I was so wrong. Her nose and her natural curiosity and instincts are strong and are tough to complete with. My “COME” vs. a groundhog... 

I would love to try and tame? Uhm train? Uhm hangout with... a wild horse. Uhm... I think I’m best as a bystander... admirer of the hard-work and dedication it takes to Makeover an American Mustang.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Mila (Spanish for Miracle) born free and wild. 2018 Arizona drought. 
https://www.instagram.com/mila_the_mustang/

Baby Wild Horse Comes WAY Out Of Her Shell - on Dodo


----------



## WildAbtHorses

CBS Sunday Morning Show - Nature: Wild Burros of Texas 3.5minutes of them wondering around.


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

Hondo said:


> Surprised about the three strikes. Not clear if she just missed adoption 3 times or was returned 3 times. I had thought 3 strikes was returned 3 times. Many of those do have issues from being mishandled.


From my understanding, three strikes means passed over for adoption three times, not returned three times.


----------



## boots

Aprilswissmiss said:


> From my understanding, three strikes means passed over for adoption three times, not returned three times.


That is correct. Those are the ones I got for my kids. 6-7 years old. Ran with bachelor bands prior to being caught. 

Made decent horses. Though on the small side.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I’m sure something similar is happening with the world of horses.

Because of the lack of tourists the owners of elephants have to “let them go?” 

“The Journey of Seven Elephants Across Country To Their New Home“ These are the last Lek can take in https://www.saveelephant.org/


----------



## Hondo

I have not noticed the prices of horses dropping so I doubt that is happening with horses at this time in the United States but if the Covid-19 hangs on until the end of 2021 as some say it may be happening to horses by then.


The aftermath of the GREAT recession of 2008 saw many people begging ranches to take their horses free just to give them a home. People were losing their homes along with their horse's homes. The price of horses became very depressed.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Here is a very heartwarming story... “Dog is My CoPilot”
https://dogcopilot.org/


----------



## Hondo

Very nice.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

What a beautiful little filly... who doesn’t want to go across bricks/stones or into the enclosed arena even with her mom right there. But once in... mom and baby run in unison. So lovely to watch.

It makes me that much more in awe of those who work with American wild horses. Love our Mustangs!


----------



## Hondo

Horse thinks it's a direct drop off into a hole. Human babies have a similar problem.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ thanks! very interesting and good to know 😊 

This update from Sam VanFleet makes wish I rode horses and lived in Wyoming!


----------



## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> This update from Sam VanFleet makes wish I rode horses and lived in Wyoming!



So? Do it!!


Lander. Been there. About 18 years ago.


There's a saying about wishing I was taught when I was little. Won't repeat it on the net or this forum.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ lol but I’m so comfy on my couch

The 42 year old horse Waco Hanover. Wow.

Waco Hanover, 42, dies ? U.S. Trotting News


----------



## Hondo

WildAbtHorses said:


> ^ lol but I’m so comfy on my couch



Some studies rate horses 10 times more dangerous than motorcycles. I personally rate couches 10 times more dangerous than horses.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ can I borrow some money? how do you drive a truck? how do you attach the horse trailer? Yikes? I hope I never have to backup. What’s the best insurance to get?

Salt Water Rez Spanish Mustangs - Arizona
Wow! they are beautiful! I hope they do do DNA testing on them.

https://saltriverwildhorsemanagementgroup.org/video/


----------



## Hondo

If you move to Wyoming you won't need a truck and trailer. Just hop on your horse and ride out the gate. If your concerned about a vet, choose an area where the vet makes calls.


Drive a truck same as a car.


Learn to back a trailer?


Choose open area.


Put in reverse and apply gently on the accelerator.


Stop pull forward.


Try again.


Repeat......many times. You'll get it.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ha-ha ... smiley

Minutes 8:00 the Mustang at the dentist. OMG what are the doing? Major drilling?







This Mustang is sooooo lucky to have this owner... poor thing might have been kicked in the holding pen before beginning adopted... having dental surgery. I wish all Mustangs have dental coverage.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Pendley "ugh"*

Pendley said he firmly disagreed with a court’s decision that he should be removed from BLM and has continued to fulfill his duties as assigned. By Camille Erickson. OCT 10, 2020
https://coloradosun.com/2020/10/10/william-perry-pendley-bureau-land-management-interview/

A Judge's Ruling Aims to Oust Public Lands Chief. Now Some Want His Decisions Tossed, Too. BY JUDY FAHYS OCT 12, 2020.
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/...-pendley-bureau-land-management-montana-trump

William Perry Pendley says he’s still on the job as acting director of BLM
“I have not been ousted. That is not true,” Pendley said in an interview. October 10, 2020
https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/10/pendley-still-blm-acting-director/


----------



## horseluvr2524

WildAbtHorses said:


> ^ can I borrow some money? how do you drive a truck? how do you attach the horse trailer? Yikes? I hope I never have to backup. What’s the best insurance to get?
> 
> Salt Water Rez Spanish Mustangs - Arizona
> Wow! they are beautiful! I hope they do do DNA testing on them.
> 
> https://saltriverwildhorsemanagementgroup.org/video/
> 
> https://youtu.be/v5AucqhgWhA



I used to live in Arizona and got to see the Salt River mustangs in person. My stubborn as heck half mustang mare refused to walk into the river and ended up breaking her bridle. Thus, I had to ride her in a halter and lead rope, and was riding with just that when we passed by some mustangs who were very interested in us. They were only about six feet away, and mind, my mare had a history of going ballistic and trying to throw me anytime she just smelled wild horses. I was so nervous, I thought she was going to flip out. Thank God she didn't.


That experience comes a close second in my list of scary experiences, the first being almost falling off a cliff while riding the same horse (actually, that time not my horse's fault but another rider who blew past us and almost knocked us over the edge).


I think Arizona was trying to kill me and I'm glad I don't live there anymore. No, my horse wasn't trying to kill me, she would never. lol. :smile:


Someday I'm going to adopt a mustang and train it. From what I've heard from others who have done just that, I think it's going to be far easier than training my half-mustang mare was. She's a special case. lol


----------



## AragoASB

My very experienced trainer says she will never train donkeys, mules or mustangs because they are not like other horses. That is all I know about it. 

I do know this because I have seen it. There are far too many mustangs on public land. What will it take? Mass starvation? They are already starving but the media does not show it. I saw horses so thin they were like skeletons. Ever seen a foal trying to nurse it's dead mother? But starvation is natural. It's either death control or birth control. The birth control darts they have need to be shot to the rumps of mares from 20 to 40 yard plus they need a booster 2 months later and then one more shot per year. How is that realistically possible with hundreds of thousands of mustang mares?

I have seen the US Border Patrol using mustangs trained by prisoners. They are tough hard working horses and are ridden in rough country and brush every day. But goodness sake, there are so many domestic horses now that nobody wants so the mustangs are just captured and warehoused at tax payer expense. And there are still too many on public land and it is not beause of cattle. I drove and still drive all over the intermountain west and I saw nothing but mustangs and a few antelope with no cattle and sheep on the range. Another thing- it can look like there is grass but it is nothing but invasive Cheat Grass, a useless feed and a fire hazard- look it up.


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## WildAbtHorses

"Wild Mustangs Give Patrol Horsepower On The Border," by Ted Robbins, NPR, June 29, 2012.
https://www.npr.org/2012/06/29/155993117/wild-mustangs-give-patrol-horsepower-on-the-border “The U.S. Border Patrol uses wild mustangs rounded up from the Rockies as it takes its hunt for smugglers…”

For anyone new to this thread, I tried to consolidate what I have learned over the last year on America’s wild horses into this online document: https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7

Short slide presentations on America’s wild horses:
https://spark.adobe.com/page/X4iUELN4t5sqY/
https://spark.adobe.com/page/Fle2tuRJG6XG1/

IMO: Americans need reliable and continuous reporting on our public lands. Updates on the animals that roam the protected public open spaces, the Government's plans for it, and the humans' recreational use of it. And, constant reporting on the wild horses in the wild and in holding facilities. Knowledge is critical.


----------



## Hondo

The Bureau of Land Management in cooperation with the Arizona Department of Corrections, Rehabilitation and Reentry will resume wild horse and burro adoptions and sales from the Wild Horse and Burro Training and Holding facility located in Florence, AZ, *starting October 26, 2020*. These private placement operations will be limited to *appointment only* with a pre-approved application for placement.


----------



## MistressMayhem

WildAbtHorses said:


> For anyone new to this thread, I tried to consolidate what I have learned over the last year on America’s wild horses into this online document: https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7


Your document isn't mobile friendly.


----------



## bsms

AragoASB said:


> My very experienced trainer says she will never train donkeys, mules or mustangs because they are not like other horses....


My farrier has a strong preference for mules. He says the "problem" with mules - and to a lesser extent, Arabians and mustangs - is that they THINK and will not accept being bullied or told "Just Do It". He says if you convince a mule you are worth trusting, a mule will support you and back you in a way no horse will. But you have to work with the mule's mind and need to give up any idea of "body control". That if you try "Ask, Tell, DEMAND" with a mule, you'll get an enemy.

He says very few horse riders can ride a mule because their training in riding horses teaches them habits that mules bitterly resent. And that while mules cannot be trained the way most horses are, that all horses OUGHT to be trained the way you MUST train a mule.

I have no experience with mules, but he says that for a horse, Bandit (half Arabian, half mustang) is uncommonly mule-like. He believes that is a compliment. I agree.


----------



## Rudytoot

They used to have a Wild Horse Auction in Tennessee, but I cannot find that it still exists. Their last posting was quite a few years ago. Anyone know if it still exists?


----------



## MistressMayhem

​


Rudytoot said:


> They used to have a Wild Horse Auction in Tennessee, but I cannot find that it still exists. Their last posting was quite a few years ago. Anyone know if it still exists?


Do you mean the Cross Plains facility, the Carr Ranch? 

Yeah, that place closed down years ago. They dissolved their partnership with the BLM sometime after 2010. 

They hung on for a few years adopting out feral horses (NOT legally protected mustangs) from the Sheldon National Wildlife Refuge, but after the last herds were removed from that place (Those horses weren't even supposed to be on the refuge in the first place) in 2014 and subsequently adopted out, the well must've went dry and they eventually had to close their doors. 

Their (Terribly designed and eye-straining) website is still up:- Carr's Wild Horse & Burro Center but it hasn't been updated since 2015. Too bad.


----------



## AragoASB

I used to have a black Arabian stallion and I know what you mean. They are different.


----------



## AragoASB

I used to have a black Arabian stallion and I know what you mean. They are different.

" Drinkers of the Wind


It is the antelope strain of horse of the North African desert that is the oldest and purest breed of horses in the world. Large of eye, ever alert, fleet of foot and able to run many leagues without rest, bands of the desert horses wandered into the Fertile Crescent seeking pasture over 6000 years ago. Highly prized for racing and for war, the horses were brought in to live closely, even within the tents of the Bedouin people, and their horse's lineage traced back by word of mouth for countless generations. The horses of Babylonia, Egypt, Macedonia and Greece sprang from them. Kept pure or 'Asil' by the Bedu people of Arabia, and war horses brought into Spain by the Moors and all of Europe by the Crusaders, the Arabian horses carried their fire and have improved all the horse breeds of the world.

This is the black stallion Masood whose name means fortunate or lucky in Arabic. Because of his coal black color he appears to be all shape lit with gleams of light. His beauty draws all beauty irresistibly to himself as a Black Hole draws in the stars of heaven. Astonishing to look at when still, yet when he moves he is all curves with a fluid grace. He moves as if he hears music. In fact, he does hear it, for he IS music. On moonless nights in the dark, the rhythm of running hoofbeats are heard, He materializes out of the dark.

So it is written in the Koran, God took a handful of the South wind and said Condense, I bid thee make an incursion into the morning. I give thee flight without wings."


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^Wow! Love the information, the story, and the horse! Thank you.

For this post I am switching form horses to elephants.

Here is a link to the best interview with Lek (only 4 wonderful minutes):


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*A Man & his Horses in the Middle of Nowhere*

“They [horse] are just so honest”


----------



## Hondo

That "Old Saying" is attributed to Winston Churchill


Winston S. Churchill — 'There is *something* *about* *the* *outside* *of* *a* *horse* *that* is *good* *for* *the* *inside* *of* *a* *man.'*


----------



## WildAbtHorses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camargue


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Stallions to Geldings and Musth Elephants to ?*

Love Lek. What we do to stallions can’t they do to elephants prior to musth? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musth

Surgical Castration of the Elephant https://www.jstor.org/stable/20095388?seq=1

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/sc...s-lose-their-balls-after-a-few-little-******/


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Patagonia’s documentary on America’s public lands. Wow.

https://www.patagonia.com/actionworks/campaigns/public-lands-waters-threat/

https://www.patagonia.com/films/public-trust/


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*Film by Patagonia - Our Public Lands*

Patagonia’s documentary on America’s public lands. Wow.

https://www.patagonia.com/actionworks/campaigns/public-lands-waters-threat/

https://www.patagonia.com/films/public-trust/


----------



## Hondo

Just remember, the large companies would not be out there polluting and causing environmental problems if there was no demand or market for the products.


For example, who among us would agree to give up our smartphone to reduce pollution?


https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffnt&q=pollution+caused+by+smartphones&atb=v206-1&ia=web


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ yikes.

“Gold in smartphones is used primarily to make connectors and wires but gold mining is a major cause of deforestation in the Amazon.” phys.org

“…they require precious metals and so-called rare earths which are processed using harmful chemicals.” thestar.com

"With their short-lived devices and unnecessarily fast product cycles, the manufacturers are causing massive environmental damage and catastrophic working conditions," Manfred Santen thestar.com


----------



## WildAbtHorses

*President Elect and VP Elect - Wild Horses Asking4Help*

What would they be asking if they could speak?

*Question*: If you could ask Biden/Harris to execute XYZ to help America's wild horses, what would that be?

My Suggestions:
1. More prison-inmates/mustang programs?
2. Increase research and birth-control measures?
3. Hire more horse trainers to gentle all of the horses in holding facilities?
4. Increase adoption programs? Like Trainer Incentive Program (TIP).
5. Create an official "America's Wild Horses" YouTube Channel that posts daily educational and horse update videos (or build upon and unify the existing ones)?
6. Inventory all wild horses in the wild and in all holding facilities, including Ree Drummond's herds.

IMO not good or bad - just that I don't think they will consider round-ups or slaughter, at least, not initially - again not good or bad just IMO. I am just removing these as what you might ask for from President Elect and VP Elect.

I was thinking of sending each of them a professionally printed hard-copy of the Wild Horses booklet: https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7


----------



## Hondo

All of the above. But I don't support slaughter, for the same reason I don't support slaughter of elephants or humans.


----------



## Plum-Pudding-Dog

WildAbtHorses said:


> What would they be asking if they could speak?
> 
> *Question*: If you could ask Biden/Harris to execute XYZ to help America's wild horses, what would that be?
> 
> My Suggestions:
> 1. More prison-inmates/mustang programs?
> 2. Increase research and birth-control measures?
> 3. Hire more horse trainers to gentle all of the horses in holding facilities?
> 4. Increase adoption programs? Like Trainer Incentive Program (TIP).
> 5. Create an official "America's Wild Horses" YouTube Channel that posts daily educational and horse update videos (or build upon and unify the existing ones)?
> 6. Inventory all wild horses in the wild and in all holding facilities, including Ree Drummond's herds.
> 
> IMO not good or bad - just that I don't think they will consider round-ups or slaughter, at least, not initially - again not good or bad just IMO. I am just removing these as what you might ask for from President Elect and VP Elect.
> 
> I was thinking of sending each of them a professionally printed hard-copy of the Wild Horses booklet: https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7


I wouldn't get your hopes up. The Mustangs and Burros population grew grossly during Obama's eight years and despite _significant_ lobbying from all corners for him to do _something_, he never actually acted on all of that prompting.

Trump was no different, nor was Bush. It seems that Presidents on from both political parties have their hands so full with other more pressing issues that affect larger segments of the US population that the Mustangs and Burros can't even get a single crumb of the President's time. So don't go in expecting that Biden will be any different.


----------



## Plum-Pudding-Dog

WildAbtHorses said:


> 3. Hire more horse trainers to gentle all of the horses in holding facilities?


You... are aware that there are currently *46,492* Mustangs and Burros currently held in Off-Range facilities, right? Yes really, those numbers are accurate. You can read all about them here:- https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/wildhorse_data_August2020FacReport.pdf It's from the BLM's website:- https://www.blm.gov/programs/wild-horse-and-burro/about-the-program/program-data 

I'm sorry, I appreciate your passion regarding this issue... but I genuinely don't see how halter training just under *50,000* animals would actually be very helpful towards getting said animals adopted. Assuming that such a thing could even be doable in the first place. I have my doubts that the US equine industry could reasonably absorb 50,000 _saddle-broke_ animals, never mind animals that have only had minimal training to be somewhat handleable.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ Maybe Kamala Harris and Dr. Jill Biden will be Wild Horses & Burros champion?!? The book is being printed and copies are being sent to both. Gotta try.

^ 50,000 is a lot of wild horses to have in holding. How many inmates does America have? Troubled youth? Out of work? Just need an organizer with a lot of cash and connections.

an aside...

Flying Foxes or Fruit Bats
Pteropus - Wikipedia

The fantastic flying Fox!
Flying foxes are far cooler than you thought

The netting is from the fruit trees (I thought fishing netting) and apparently Australia has a lot of barbed wire. Love this Batzilla YouTube Channel - an Australian couple that has been rescuing and rehabilitating these sweet animals for 10 years.


----------



## Plum-Pudding-Dog2

WildAbtHorses said:


> ^ Maybe Kamala Harris and Dr. Jill Biden will be Wild Horses & Burros champion?!? The book is being printed and copies are being sent to both. Gotta try.


Such things were hoped for and said about previous Vice Presidents and First Ladies. As previously mentioned about past Presidents, nothing ever materialized. The Vice President is a toothless position, they simply don't have any real political power (Which is why one tends to not hear much about them). First Ladies typically get involved in passion projects (Usually one that holds close personal meaning to them) and devote their time and energies to that specific one thing.

I would also like to point out that I've read your "book". It contains gross amounts of inaccurate information, grammar and spelling errors and is absurdly biased for and against certain solutions. Not the best thing to send to people that you wish to champion the "cause" to.

Kamala Harris and Dr. Jill Biden likely do not read their own mail, probably haven't for years at this point. Both of them are high ranking public figures who doubtlessly receive _hundreds _of mailed items every day. It would both be impractical, not to mention dangerous (Remember the Anthrax Letter Attacks that occurred just after 9/11?), for them to read their own mail.

So your "book" may not even ever be seen by them, just looked at by some Intern. Assuming that the "books" don't get lost in the mail shuffle and get thrown out in the first place of course. At best, you may receive a form letter (Not typed up by either woman, but you might get lucky and see their signatures at the bottom) that says "Thank you for bringing this to Bah Blahs attention, please contact the appropriate management offices (Which would be the BLM... ) to learn more about this topic".



WildAbtHorses said:


> ^ 50,000 is a lot of wild horses to have in holding. How many inmates does America have? Troubled youth? Out of work? Just need an organizer with a lot of cash and connections.


The United States of America has the largest prison population in the entire world, counting Youth and Adult offenders and taking into account Jails, Prisons and Contractor facilities... Theirs probably just under 2.5 *million *individuals in custody. It's a horrifying tragedy that I would implore you to not exploit.

Also, remember what I told you earlier? About the halter training not being likely to make much of a difference in getting animals in holding adopted, that *saddle-training* said animals would probably *not *even be of use? That still applies. I'll say it again, _the US equestrian population would be unable to absorb 50,000 newly saddle-trained horses. _

And of course an "Organizer" with lots of cash and connections to the entire American penal system almost certainly doesn't exist.

Plus remember that movie that was made a year or two ago about an inmate training an untamed horse? Guess what happened? The public's interest in the program surged in the immediate weeks after the movie premiered.... and then the "hype" prominently died out and no notable change happened as the result of the movie.



WildAbtHorses said:


> an aside...Flying Foxes or Fruit Bats


This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, so I'm not sure why you're trying to insert it into the discussion.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ All valid points and your input helps round out the thinking on the situation. I do not disagree with any of your comments and analysis. Thanks for posting - I appreciate it.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Yesterday the ’America’s Wild Horses‘ information (printed by Photobooks.pro and via UPS) was delivered to Harris in DC and Biden in Delaware. Hopefully someone will review them and pass them on.

If you want to smile for 3 full minutes:


----------



## QtrBel

Saving horses in the West and its connection to elephants in Africa


A team of well trained and committed volunteers, a large and extensive database and collaborative partnerships in the Reno area helped craft the world’s largest fertility control effort for wild mares. Here’s how it works.




www.deseret.com


----------



## WildAbtHorses

First, thanks for the article!

Second, I didn't know that S. Africa had an issue with elephant populations:
African elephants and contraception
Protected from hunting and provided with access to water-holes during droughts, elephant numbers can double in a decade, severely damaging natural vegetation and the many species dependent upon it. Culling is an effective but controversial control strategy, so Fayrer-Hosken _et al_.1 have assessed the efficacy of using immunocontraception through vaccination, concluding that this could be a practical way of controlling elephant numbers.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

third, I had not heard about "The Tahoe Reno Industrial Center, the largest industrial park in the world that is home to the Tesla Gigafactory 1, Google, Switch and Blockchains." and their involvement with The Virginia Range wild horses (Northern Nevada) population.

Fascinating! Again, thanks for the article link.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

After Tesla secured a real estate deal, Elon Musk posted a video on social media showing wild horses roaming the ridge, Thompson said, recording 750,000 hits in 60 days.

Elon Musk just gave us a glimpse of the wild horses that roam near Tesla's Gigafactory by Danielle Muoio Oct 5, 2017.

Tesla bought 3,000 acres.
Blockchains (builds cryptographic ledger systems) owns 70,000 acres.

These tech guys should be able to build the biggest and the BEST wild horse db!!!

The program treated 1,333 mares and administered 3,075 treatments since it began this program on April 9, 2019, for a population of 3,000

The database includes multiple photos of each horse so volunteers can correctly identify them to determine if any of the mares are in need of a vaccine, which is 97% effective.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I hope the Tahoe Reno Industrial Center shows the world American Ingenuity at its BEST! Working to help the iconic American Wild Horses and Burros!! Go Tahoe Reno Industrial Center Businesses!!!

Can someone provide a link to Elon Musk's Mustang video?


----------



## trailscout

QtrBel said:


> Saving horses in the West and its connection to elephants in Africa
> 
> 
> A team of well trained and committed volunteers, a large and extensive database and collaborative partnerships in the Reno area helped craft the world’s largest fertility control effort for wild mares. Here’s how it works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.deseret.com


Usefulness of PZP in the wild horse herds in the USA is that only a very small percentage of the wild horses can be approached within range of a PZP dart gun. Those are small bands that are visited frequently by tourist and have been desensitized somewhat to people on foot.

I spent five summers in the Pine Nut Mountains East of Carson City, NV where there are several wild horse bands. It was difficult to get close enough to even get a picture. For those, PZP for wild horses would be similar to PZP for a deer herd.

The elephants may be more approachable.

I doubt Elon Musk has spent anytime himself photographing wild horses. He disparages or compares non-Tesla owners to horse owners.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ “... compares non-Tesla owners to horse owners” sounds like a complement!

yes, a bit discouraging… over the last two-years… “treated 1,333 mares and administered 3,075 treatments” out of 100,000 difficult to find and get close to?

At least the Tahoe Reno Industrial Center - Wikipedia acknowledges, likes, brings attention to the wild horses and burros?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Wild horses: Phoenix and Ghost, a love story with a happy ending?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Did you see this? Are we seeing anything like this in America's wild horses and burros?

“Spotted and oddly striped zebras may be a warning for species’ future by Lindsay Patterson January 2021








Spotted and oddly striped zebras may be a warning for species’ future


Animals with abnormal coat patterns may be inbred, “dramatic evidence” of how habitat fragmentation can harm wildlife, a new study says.




www.nationalgeographic.com





another article January 2021








Zebras with spots and gold fur are observed in Africa from inbreeding


Scientists did a DNA analysis of 140 African zebras and found those with odd patters are a result of inbreeding. These animals are unable to mate with other herds due to habitat fragmentation.




www.dailymail.co.uk





an article from last year Nov 2020








Population structure, inbreeding and stripe pattern abnormalities in plains zebras


One of the most iconic wild equids, the plains zebra occupies a broad region of sub-Saharan Africa and exhibits a wide range of phenotypic diversity in stripe patterns that have been used to classify...




onlinelibrary.wiley.com


----------



## trailscout

I remember reading that a herd of 200 horses in the wild is required to maintain genetic soundness. Seems it would be the same or similar for zebras.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

In the interest of America's wild horses and burros I am sending this book (which still needs work):


https://indd.adobe.com/view/1be429a0-ec30-4ec9-ab6b-51affdccefd7



To:
Deb Haaland, pending Land Management
Pete Buttigieg, Transportation - is there a better way to get around? a horse for every family?!?
Jennifer Granholm, pending Energy - if we're looking for CLEAN ENERGY? look no farther then a Mustang & Burro!

How about these slogans?
"Adopt a Wild Horse & Burro for Your Transportation Needs!" or
"Looking for a Clean Energy Alternative? Adopt a Wild Horse & Burro!"
"They will not only get you to where you're going, but they will also be great companions on your journey!"
And if used for transportation, they can be a tax write-off???


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I'm thinking I'm going to send a copy of "the book" to Gina McCarthy who is in charge of Domestic Climate initiatives. She was talking about public land uses, jobs, clean energy, Earth Day!

IMO What a great Earth Day it would be if the day was filled with lots of talks and tons of information about America's Wild Horses & Burros!!!

Earth Day is Thursday, April 22, 2021!


----------



## trailscout

Have you visited Explore Mustang Camp

And if you'd like to acquire some in depth knowledge and experience with no out of pocket expenses other than travel to and from, check out the next link. Food and a place to sleep is furnished.









Explore Mustang Camp - Mustang Camp Volunteer Opportunities


Help Us Make a Difference in the Life of a Captured Wild Horse or Burro




www.mustangcamp.org


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ Love it!!! "Mustang Camp is a New Mexico Non-Profit organization training wild horses for adoption. Mustang Camp is located in the old Largo Canyon School facility on 14 acres within remote wilderness land in northern New Mexico. Our mission is to reduce the suffering of captive horses through humane training practices, train people to train horses, and to get horses adopted to suitable homes." Explore Mustang Camp

Gina McCarthy mentioned today a "Youth Energy Civilian Climate Crops" -It would be great to put America's youth to work helping American Wild Horses & Burros! What a great win-win-win!

Expand upon the New Mexico Mustang Camp? a Mustang Camp for each state? for each herd? for each BLM wild horses facility?

"How a Climate Corps Could Put Youth to Work in Greening America" by Daniel Munczek Edelmen, Yale School October 15, 2020. How a Climate Corps Could Put Youth to Work in Greening America


----------



## trailscout

Mustang Camp is a 501c non profit. Headed by some very dedicated people as a retirement project.

I'm tied down to where I live with my animals, but someone like you could go there and after spending time and taking notes and perhaps discussing the idea with the Mustang Camp owners, perhaps that someone, (you even), could come up with the nuts and bolts of a plan that would actually work on the large scale of many states.

The Mustang Heritage Foundation is running the TIP program for the BLM and they also sponsor the mustang make over competition.

Now on the TIP program, it sounds pretty good to train a mustang to lead, load, and pick up feet for $1000. But you have 6 months to do that in and to also find someone willing to adopt it from the BLM or you get nothing. And you may have already spent $500 on hay. And if you decide to keep the horse, you get nothing again.

I was all for that until I learned I couldn't keep the horse and get $1000.

The mustang camp I sure gets financial support from somewhere but I have no idea if that's really the case. 

But if I were going to invest time and soul into hoping to find ways to set up similar camps, I'd talk to them as they would likely bee able to address that straight away.

Just looking at the numbers, it is impressive that they've adopted out 600 mustangs. But over 20 years that's 30 per year. It'd take a lot lot of similar facilities to handle the volume that needs adopting.

But every little bit helps.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

"Riding a Horse to Find Magnolia Blossoms" another excellent reason for all American's to have a Mustang horse.

Caveat: Li Ziqi's YouTube Channel is additive.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Does anyone know and want to share a report comparing Canada and US wild horse roundups and processing?

I enjoyed watching the young wild Arabian Gracie’s transformation, which was amazing. I’m looking forward to watching this sweet “Canadian Wildie” transform into a loving horse.


----------



## I.B.F.C.

WildAbtHorses said:


> Does anyone know and want to share a report comparing Canada and US wild horse roundups and processing


Unlike the US, Canada does _not_ have a country wide law regarding how free-roaming horses are to be managed. Each individual province sets its' own rules instead. Which can range *from* "Full protection; These animals are never to be touched." *to *"No protection; Go ahead and take a trailer out, cram as many of those pests in as you can and haul them to the nearest slaughterhouse." 

It's a good system, seems to work fairly well. Of course, I suppose it helps that Canada has never had the sheer numbers of free-roaming horses that the US does. Theirs only _four _known free-roaming horse groups in the country! They are:- The horses of Sable Island (Located *far *off the coast of Nova Scotia!), The ponies of Saskatchewan's Bronson Forest, The "Wildies" of Alberta's Rocky Mountain Foothills & British Columbia's Chilcotin Plateau horses. 

For more information on general management:- Free-roaming horse management in North America - Wikipedia 

Sable Island horse:- Sable Island horse - Wikipedia 

Good website about the US situation and America's Mustangs in general:- https://web.archive.org/web/20140811081213/http://www.mustangs4us.com/index.htm


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## trailscout

The principle problem faced by the wild horses as well as other wild animals is the out of control over population of **** sapiens that have busted clear through and flattened the AML for **** sapiens and are threatening the extinction of all animals including themselves.

Quote: The *wild* *horses* have no reason to fear humans. And we have no reason to fear for the *horses*, as they are 100 percent protected by the *Canadian* government—one of the few *wild* *horse* populations in the world guided only by mother nature. 









Canada Wild: A Look At Canada's Beautiful Wild Horses


Equine photographer and writer Sandy Sharkey shares her incredible photos of the wild horses of Canada and writes about her experience with them.




ihearthorses.com


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## WildAbtHorses

The future belongs to today's students. What do they think? What do they want from their public lands?

The United States of America is currently facing many challenges! Opportunities!?!

To maintain and promote a thriving natural ecological balance (TNEB) throughout the country, especially in our shared areas under the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). Addressing the ongoing saga between human playtime use, Herd Management Areas (HMAs) of America's native horse populations, the native flora and fauna, and livestock AUM allocations.

I am looking forward to reviewing the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) and the BLM resource management plan (RMP), its blueprints for America's public landscapes.

IMO universities, colleges, high schools students provide (or could provide) a very powerful team of motivated individuals, clubs, resources to help create and maintain a robust, broad-based scientific assessment of the baseline ecological conditions with proposals to address biodiversity issues and restoration, recovery, and sustainability actions.

The future belongs to today's students. What do they think? What do they want from their public lands?


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## Appleloosa!

trailscout said:


> The *wild* *horses* have no reason to fear humans. And we have no reason to fear for the *horses*, as they are 100 percent protected by the *Canadian* government—one of the few *wild* *horse* populations in the world guided only by mother nature.


That only applies to the Sable Island ponies. The Alberta "Wildies" have no legal protection, nor are they managed by "mother nature". Pre-2014 their numbers were managed by yearly government sanctioned roundups, post-2014 their numbers have been kept surpressed by private citizen "advocates" darting them with PZP vaccines every year.


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## Appleloosa!

WildAbtHorses said:


> The future belongs to today's students. What do they think? What do they want from their public lands?


They either don't know or don't care. I don't think that you fully understand just how niche of an issue this is. I reckon that most of the general public has no idea that the American government even owns large tracts of land out west, let alone that feral horses live on a minority of said land and that there is a huge, decades long debate over how to control their numbers. 

The general public usually favors recreation over all other uses for public lands though, which tends to bode ill for the horses. Harassment and all, you know?


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## Appleloosa!

Thought this would be of interest to those involved in this conversation.

Up until 1994, there was another group on free-roaming horses in Canada.... 

They were called the Suffield horses. Or just the "Block Horses". After the location they were from, the Suffield Block (A large area of land the Canadian government seized from local farmers and ranchers in order to establish a chemical weapon testing and training site). Suffield Block - Wikipedia 

Which eventually became the Canadian Forces Base Suffield (also CFB Suffield), the largest Canadian Forces base. CFB Suffield - Wikipedia 

But in 1994, the entire herd of over 1,200 horses, which at the time was the largest population of free-roaming horses in Canada, was removed from the Suffield military base on the Alberta-Saskatchewan border. 

Documentary about the whole event here:- 



 
Of course the vast majority of the herd is believed to have been sent to the slaughterhouse, but a small number of private citizens opted to buy as many of the better looking horses as they could and work to remake their descendants into an official "breed". 

So the Suffield horses do still exist to this day, here's a good website about them:- http://www.marlboroughmustangs.ca/home.html 

History:- http://www.marlboroughmustangs.ca/the-history-of-the-suffield-mustang.html 

"Breed":- http://www.marlboroughmustangs.ca/the-emergence-of-the-canadian-suffield-mustang-as-a-new-breed.html 

"Breed" registry:- http://www.marlboroughmustangs.ca/smac.html 

All in all, the whole thing reminds me of the White Sands Missile Range free-roaming horses. 

You had a similar situation:- Feral horses who where unintentionally created via a Government kicking hundreds of people off of their private property so they could turn it into a test site. The horses left behind in the commotion went feral and their descendants preceded to remain feral for about 60 or so years. 

Then in the 90's the horses had to suddenly go because of the damage their unchecked numbers did to the environment. (It doesn't sound as though the situation at Suffield was quite as bad as White Sands was.... White Sands was a massive tragedy. Large numbers of those horses died horrible, lingering deaths from dehydration and starvation before they could be rounded-up.)

So "go" they did and the base in question afterwards became a place for wildlife. ( Suffield National Wildlife Area - Wikipedia for Suffield & White Sands National Park - Wikipedia for White Sands :- Which I have actually been too! Lovely, fascinating place!) 

Of course the White Sands horses didn't quite get the "happy ending" that was hoped for. Because thirty years later the remaining descendants of those horses had to be rescued from death and starvation again when the "sanctuary" that they had been living on went under due to exceptionally poor management. You can read about that here:- https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/l...cle_414fafe5-3d5b-537a-9de2-fa9333e47fda.html 

At least the Suffield horses had a better outcome!


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## trailscout

Visit: Wild Horses of Alberta Society


Located about 15 minutes west of Sundre, the Wild Horses of Alberta Society is a must visit!




www.thisbigadventure.com










Canadian Wild Horse Foundation: The Ancient Heritage of Horses


As the Alberta government reviews its management strategy for more than 950 wild horses that roam the Eastern Slopes of the Rocky Mountains, the newly formed Canadian Wild Horse Foundation (CWHF) is getting set to petition the federal government to declare wild horses a heritage species...




www.horsejournals.com













The Wildies of Alberta


In western Canada, a controversy brews once again over the capture and cull of herds of wild horses.




roadsandkingdoms.com


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## Appleloosa!

trailscout said:


> Visit: Wild Horses of Alberta Society
> 
> 
> Located about 15 minutes west of Sundre, the Wild Horses of Alberta Society is a must visit!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thisbigadventure.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Canadian Wild Horse Foundation: The Ancient Heritage of Horses
> 
> 
> As the Alberta government reviews its management strategy for more than 950 wild horses that roam the Eastern Slopes of the Rocky Mountains, the newly formed Canadian Wild Horse Foundation (CWHF) is getting set to petition the federal government to declare wild horses a heritage species...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.horsejournals.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Wildies of Alberta
> 
> 
> In western Canada, a controversy brews once again over the capture and cull of herds of wild horses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> roadsandkingdoms.com


An ad and two articles nearly a decade out of date. Sorry friend, but I'm not impressed.


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## trailscout

Almost ten years? Oh my! 

The only person I strive to impress is myself.

I am, however, deeply impressed with your wide assortment of websites and persistent persistence, friend.


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## Horse Training Cowgirl

Thanks for sharing all the information! I didn't know a lot of this before, now I've been digging down deeper. Does anyone know about how to go about getting a mustang in Canada? Either from the USA or one that's in Canada?


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## trailscout

For the USA, the best and most accurate information can be found on the BLM's adoption website.









Programs: Wild Horse and Burro: Adoptions and Sales | Bureau of Land Management







www.blm.gov





I'm sure Google can answer for Canada.


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## WildAbtHorses

To me, this is better-sweet story for so many reasons, which I'm sure we are all so acutely aware of.

A lovely 14-year-old rescued Arabian horse from a Texas "Kill Pen" receives a chiropractic adjustment. I have to say that Dr. Willen captivated me with his process.

It would be nice to see a before and after treatment video of the Arabian playing in a field.


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## WildAbtHorses

Charles Owen Williamson (1894-1977)
Charles Owen Williamson on Collection: From Range-bred Broncs to High School Dressage - Kip Mistral

This is what I found very interesting: "Williamson received a degree in veterinary medicine and headed West to wrangle wild horses and guide visitors to Yellowstone National Park." I would enjoy knowing more about the man.

I looked up “High School Horses” and found the following: "Classical dressage evolved from cavalry movements and training for the battlefield." Classical dressage - Wikipedia Fascinating.

This HorseForum post is all because of a YouTube book review next to Oscar, the BC Wild Horse who seems to be settling into domestic life very well. LOL It was mesmerizing watching him eat from the hay-bag.





Breaking and Training the Stock Horse (and Teaching Basic Principles of Dressage): Williamson, Charles O.: 9780960014415: Amazon.com: Books

BTW This Thread usually receives 1000 hits per month, but last month the Thread hit 1000 in two weeks. Hopefully, all those copies of the book I sent to our Government officials are getting read and are creating some serious thinking about how best to handle our American Mustang Horses & Burros situation.


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## WildAbtHorses

Here is a picture of Charles Owen Williamson (1894-1977).


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## WildAbtHorses

On November 27, 1894, in Tuckerman, Arkansas, Charles Owen Williamson was born to Laura E. (Murray) and Christopher Williamson. On September 9, 1949, Ruth Bates married Williamson in Kewanee, Illinois, and on May 5, 1977, in Hamilton, Montana, he died from cardiovascular disease and was cremated.

Williamson attended Kansas State University in Manhattan, Kansas, and in 1920 graduated with a degree in veterinary medicine from Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio.

He held an assortment of jobs from Yellow Stone Park guide, a Dude Rancher, a Pryor Mountain's Forest Ranger, and he ran the Williamson School of Horsemanship from 1852 to 1970. He wrote several magazine articles, and the book "Breaking and Training the Stock Horse and Teaching Basic Principles of Dressage," first published in 1948 with the 6th edition published in 1968, the book was used as a textbook in high schools and universities.


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## bsms

WildAbtHorses said:


> I looked up “High School Horses” and found the following: "Classical dressage evolved from cavalry movements and training for the battlefield." Classical dressage - Wikipedia Fascinating.


It is a commonly repeated myth. Dressage developed as a way of training horses for nobility - so they could be ridden comfortably in enormous parties. See The Development of Modern Riding by VS Littauer. It never had application on the battlefield. The only cavalry that tried it was the Russians starting around 1900. Littauer was a Russian cavalry officer. When WW1 started, they had to dump everything they had been taught because for field operations, a horse's value was speed and covering distances. For that, long & flat strides are needed, not collection.

_"The typical English squire was particularly annoyed when menage schooling was presented to him as essential basic training even for a hunter: ". . . what is a horse good for that can do nothing but dance and play tricks?" Answering this evidently frequent derogatory remark, William Cavendish, Duke of Newcastle, wrote in the preface to his famous book,A GENERAL SYSTEM OF HORSEMANSHIP, first published in 1657:

"... I presume those great wits (the sneering gentlemen) will give Kings, Princes, and persons of quality leave to love pleasure-horses, as being an exercise that is very noble, and that which makes them appear most graceful when they show themselves to their subjects, or at the head of an army, to animate it; so that the pleasure in this case is as useful as any thing else, besides the glory and satisfaction that attends it."

These quotations indicate differing attitudes of the period toward riding of the kind that today we call Dressage. It can certainly be said that the first form of educated riding was devised for the nobility. If one appreciates this, one is not surprised to find in the subtitle of Pluvinel's classic, MANEIGE ROYAL (1623), the assertion that this book contains "all exercises worthy of Princes."_... - From Horseman's Progress: The Development of Modern Riding

Although my favorite quotation of his is found here:

"_For instance Blundeville also suggests how a rider who "lacketh arte, and knoweth not by order of riding how to get the maistrie of his horse" may correct his stubbornness and make him move forward:

"Let a footman stand behind you with a shrewd cat tied at the one end of a long pole, with hir bellie upward, so as she may have hir mouth and clawes at libertie; and when your horse doth staie or goe backward, let him thrust the cat betwixt his thighs, so as she may scratch and bite him, sometimes by the thighs, sometimes by the rumpe . . . and let the footman and all the standers-by threaten the horse with a terrible noise, and you shall see it will make him to go as you will have him, and on so doing be ready to make much of him. Also, the shrill crie of a hedgehog being strait tied by the foot under the horse's taile is a reminder of like force, which was proved by Master Vincentio Respino a Neapolitan, who corrected by this means an old restive horse of the King's in such sort, as he had much ado afterward to keepe him from the contrarie vice of running awaie..._"


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## WildAbtHorses

^ oh my! some interesting gents! Not just any ordinary cat but a a shrewd cat is required. LOL

Vladimir Stanislavovitch Littauer
Vladimir Littauer - Wikipedia
He wrote more than a dozen books between 1930 and 1973 which sparked vivid debates among experienced riders of various backgrounds.

Thomas Blundeville (c. 1522 – c. 1606) 
Thomas Blundeville - Wikipedia
An English humanist writer and mathematician. He is known for work on logic, astronomy, education and horsemanship, as well as for translations from the Italian. His interests were both wide-ranging and directed towards practical ends, and he adapted freely a number of the works he translated.

Master Vincentio Respino


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## WildAbtHorses

Canadian Geographic April 2021 post on wild horses 45minutes.


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## WildAbtHorses

Horses on PetFinder! I found my lovable rescued pups via PetFinder.








Adopt Astrid on Petfinder


Astrid is an adoptable Horse - Pony searching for a forever family near Hohenwald , TN. Use Petfinder to find adoptable pets in your area.




www.petfinder.com





Horse Plus Humane Society (Hohenwald, TN) rescues horses from action and rehabilitates them. Sad to happy. Some wonderful turn arounds. What a wonderful group of folks.













Horse Plus Humane Society


New Season of Horse Rescue Heroes Coming January Learn More...




www.horseplushumanesociety.org


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## trailscout

The Human Society in the county where I live has an equine division. I adopted a mule there.


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## WildAbtHorses

IMO every family should have a burro/donkey or mule. America's wild ones are in the news...

Erick J. Lundgren “Erick Lundgren is a PhD student in the Biology program at Arizona State University. He has worked as a field technician with various birds, mammals, and rivers since 2007, although he began pretending to be a field biologist when he was three. His research interests rotate around how to understand and value the novel ecological communities of the Anthropocene. Although he is in a botany lab, he is currently studying the unusual ecology of the wild burros of the Sonoran Desert.” Note: Anthropocene (via Google) is relating to or denoting the current geological age, viewed as the period during which human activity has been the dominant influence on climate and the environment.

“How donkeys digging wells help life thrive in the desert.” by Issam Ahmed, April 29, 2021.
“For thousands of years, horses and donkeys have been some of our species' most important partners.”
How donkeys digging wells help life thrive in the desert

"Well-digging exploits of horses and donkeys benefit other desert species – study.” by HorseTalk.Co.Nz, May 2, 2021.
“Erick Lundgren and his colleagues, in a study titled Equids engineer desert water availability, noted that large animals play important roles in the biosphere, yet little is known about how they shape dryland ecosystems.”
Well-digging exploits of horses and donkeys benefit other desert species - study - Horsetalk.co.nz


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## WildAbtHorses

Russia has wild horses? Does anyone read Russian? Beautiful horses!






the horses don’t look like Przewalski horses.








Przewalski's horse - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





nine breeds native to Russia








9 horse breeds native to Russia


Take a look at Russia's finest horses.




www.rbth.com


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## trailscout

That is just too awesome. What really hit me was they have cowboy horse wranglers in Russia. We really are all the same people. Too bad so man don't realize it.

The movie could have been shot in so many places in the USA.

Magical.


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## WildAbtHorses

Jennifer Gates is a horse lover and rider! I have sent emails to the M&B Gates Foundation but I’m thinking I should send a copy of “the America’s wild horses book” to Jennifer and her fiancé. Is anyone a FB friend of Jennifer? If yes, please make sure she has a link to this HorseForum Thread. Thanks!


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## WildAbtHorses

NYT’s 15May2021 by Dave Philipps

Wild Horses Adopted Under a Federal Program Are Going to Slaughter









Wild Horses Adopted Under a Federal Program Are Going to Slaughter (Published 2021)


Records show that some people who are paid $1,000 a head by the government to give legally protected mustangs “good homes” are sending the horses to auction once they get the money.




www.nytimes.com


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## trailscout

I question this. Didn't read the article as I'm suspect of it.

The $1000 horse deal is the TIP program. Trainer Incentive Program. To collect the $1000, the horse must be gentled and adopted. The adoption is not from the TIP but through the BLM. The BLM owns the horse until it is gentled and adopted. It would be felony to sell a government owned animal.

Now this is not to say that regular BLM adopters that have had their horse for a year, at which time it becomes their property, do not become frustrated and sell their horse. They do. And some wind up in the kill pen and are trucked to Canada or Mexico for slaughter.

But the TIP trainers who are the only people who get 1k for gentling and finding an adopter, do NOT sell the horse to anyone. Not their horse to sell. The BLM has records of these horses. Plus the Mustange Heritage Foundation is now administering the TIP program for the BLM and they are one of the nation's primary movers against slaughter.

If anyone has information contrary to what I've posted please share.


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## WildAbtHorses

This is just one example of ranchers keeping rounded up wild horses on their land for the Americans People. Why not leave them be. Feral animals just repopulate to regulate their numbers.

The Drummond Ranch alone keeps 3,400 horses, receiving an average of $1.30 per head, per day.Nov 10, 2010. Food Network’s pioneer woman and America’s wild horses 3400 x 1.3 = 4420/day from US Gov (1.6m/annually).

I believe the NTY article was referring to some not all, and not Drummond, take the horses that have been entrusted to them to auction.


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## trailscout

$1.30 per head per day is less than half the cost in a holding pen and the horses are able to move enough to provide self trimming which they get neither human or self trimming in the holding pen.

And again, the only people that get $1000 to gentle a mustang are the TIP trainers. They never own the horse. They must have the horse gentled to catch, load, and allow hoof work with an adopter being found all in 6 months or they get nothing for the expense they've been out. And the horse is returned to the BLM.

When an adopter is found, the adopter must go through the same procedure that would be used adopting from a BLM facility. And the adopter will not own the horse until one year has passed. And the adopter must have a facility that meets BLM standards. 

After one year has passed the adopter must provide certification from a vet or county agent that the horse received proper care during the year. Then and only then they can pay the standard adoption fee to the BLM. They never pay a fee to the TIP trainer. 

No TIP trainer EVER sells a BLM horse to anyone, including a kill pen.


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## boots

WildAbtHorses said:


> This is just one example of ranchers keeping rounded up wild horses on their land for the Americans People. Why not leave them be. Feral animals just repopulate to regulate their numbers.
> 
> The Drummond Ranch alone keeps 3,400 horses, receiving an average of $1.30 per head, per day.Nov 10, 2010. Food Network’s pioneer woman and America’s wild horses 3400 x 1.3 = 4420/day from US Gov (1.6m/annually).
> 
> I believe the NTY article was referring to some not all, and not Drummond, take the horses that have been entrusted to them to auction.


Why not just leave them alone? They repopulate to regulate their numbers? 

Two reasons I can think if quickly:
1) Animals don't plan ahead. They don't consider the available grass/forage. They don't look at long-range forecasts and reduce their herd sizes based on predicted drought cycles. (Like ranchers and other range managers do) They DO breed until they have too little and then Nature cleans up in very cruel ways. 

2) Horses damage the environment, especially critical riparian areas, more than other herbivores. The ones with cloven/split hooves. This damages ever decreasing ecosystems that other wildlife, large and small, depend on.

Not managing the feral horses is cruel to all. 

As to the Drummonds... it's their outfit. They can ride that gravy train as long as it lasts, or as long as their ethics allow. But, I'm not happy that I'm forced to support it.


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## bsms

They have over 400,000 acres of private land and run the horses on it for about 2 million a year.









Pioneer Woman Ree Drummond revealed as largest landowner


Ree Drummond may present herself as a modern day Laura Ingalls Wilder or Willa Cather on her Pioneer Woman blog and TV show, but she has far more in common with the Queen of England.




www.dailymail.co.uk





Not sure what is wrong with that, apart from my belief that we ought to get rid of a lot of mustangs.


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## WildAbtHorses

American Mustangs in Canada May 2021 for the pending TIP Challenge in Georgia. Beautiful Mustangs!


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## WildAbtHorses

Just wondering.

How much does an elephant cost? How much do elephant owners make off owning an elephant?

It breaks my heart to think that these elephants have to leave ENP sanctuary and return to WORK. Doing what?


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## WildAbtHorses

What will Mae Koy and Maliwan have to do?


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## DarkWing

WildAbtHorses said:


> It breaks my heart to think that these elephants have to leave ENP sanctuary and return to WORK. Doing what?


Logging, most likely. 
----------------------------------
Let's get back on topic now, shall we? I've got some recommended reading for you OP- *Horses: Wild Horses of the Great Basin* - By_ Paula Morin_ (University of Nevada Press, 2006). 

You might find that book quite enlightening. Although it's out of print and has been for quite some time, so you might have trouble getting your hands on it. Try looking in online libraries. Good luck.


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## WildAbtHorses

*Honest Horses: Wild Horses of the Great Basin* - By_ Paula Morin_ (University of Nevada Press, 2006).

I just ordered it! $4 hardback + $4 S&H and should have it by 18June2021. Thanks!


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## Kathy l. Smith

Isn't any one appalled at the treatment of these herds? helicopters!, Running for miles, mares and foals separated immediately, packed into pens and then trucks. The blm is using these animals for slaughter specifically. Who monitors the blm? Nobody. They do what they want and this garbage about sterilizing the mares, they stick something up them after throwing them on the ground no anesthesia. It's barbaric and I am a nobody but I was born in this country and am a citizen. Wild horse protection act is a valid law,those horses belong to all of us and the ones that are my portion I demand that they be free running and not harassed by humans. There is more than enough public lands for all of them. If the ranchers want more feed for their cattle then buy some hay for God's sakes, don't kill an entire species so you can make a buck.


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## phantomhorse13

Kathy l. Smith said:


> Isn't any one appalled at the treatment of these herds? helicopters!, Running for miles, mares and foals separated immediately, packed into pens and then trucks. *The blm is using these animals for slaughter specifically.* Who monitors the blm? Nobody. They do what they want and this garbage about sterilizing the mares, *they stick something up them after throwing them on the ground no anesthesia*. It's barbaric


I would love to see sources/references for the bolded statements please. There are so many horses in holding facilities because slaughter is not allowed. As far as "sticking something up them" for sterilization of mares, I can only guess you are talking about marbling? I have done that on domestic horses and no anesthesia was needed. Its not a surgical procedure. 



Kathy l. Smith said:


> the ones that are my portion I demand that they be free running and not harassed by humans.


There are BLM auctions all across the country and many horses in the Three Strikes program. If you want to get "your portion" of the mustangs and provide them with a place to run free and not be harassed, no reason you can't do so.


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## QtrBel

@phantomhorse13 Barbaric surgical procedure they have been trying to force as an option for sterilization. If I remember correctly it has been thwarted twice before and after several lawsuits they are opting out of its use. There have been reports it was used on a small group of mares on a national wildlife preserve out west just not on mares on BLM land.









BLM Opts Out of Plans For Sterilization Surgery For Wild Horses in Utah


Government abandons plan to subject wild horses in Utah to controversial sterilization surgeries. As of April 19, 2021, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is dropping plans to conduct sterilization surgeries on wild mares in Utah, and the American Wild Horse Campaign (AWHC) is again...




www.horsenation.com


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## boots

Kathy l. Smith said:


> Isn't any one appalled at the treatment of these herds? helicopters!, Running for miles, mares and foals separated immediately, packed into pens and then trucks. The blm is using these animals for slaughter specifically. Who monitors the blm? Nobody. They do what they want and this garbage about sterilizing the mares, they stick something up them after throwing them on the ground no anesthesia. It's barbaric and I am a nobody but I was born in this country and am a citizen. Wild horse protection act is a valid law,those horses belong to all of us and the ones that are my portion I demand that they be free running and not harassed by humans. There is more than enough public lands for all of them. If the ranchers want more feed for their cattle then buy some hay for God's sakes, don't kill an entire species so you can make a buck.


Goodness. So much misinformation in the quoted post. But it isn't the author's fault. This is what grifters put out to elicit donations.

Horses are not run for miles, chased by helicopters (helicopters were favored by "Wild Horse Annie" by the way). A mile or two is about it.

The BLM does not slaughter the feral horses. If they did there wouldn't be over population in many areas.

Who monitors the BLM? Mercy. Who doesn't? Wild horse activist groups. Recreation groups (4 wheelers, hikers and bicyclists, universities, consumer tax agencies, livestock groups, recreational horse groups, even other government agencies!)

Surgical sterilization of mares isn't a horrid thing. Many horse owners, who love their horses like family, get their mares spayed. It's safer for horses to have the type of procedure with the intra-vaginal approach than an external incision. Stays cleaner. Heals faster. The horses don't have to be handled twice.

There may be enough acreage, but there certainly is not enough water or forage. Some of the herd areas are scientifically rated to require 250 acres per animal unit. That's per deer or antelope doe and fawn, mare and foal, etc.

And those ranchers... They pay to put animals in specific areas for anywhere from a few weeks to two months. At the most. Not all year long. In addition to a fee per animal unit (mom and baby, usually), they have to report and repair any damage to roads (most often caused by recreation vehicles). They have to maintain or improve water sources. Not just for the horses, but for other wildlife, amphibians, and fowl that all share the ecosystem. They have to assess and report the types and amounts of the grasses, other plants, and noxious plants in an area. They often are the ones who find meth labs and liquor stills on federal ground. So those ranchers help all the rangers for all the wildlife and for the people who want to enjoy our public spaces.

I hope you spend some time reading this thread. Many members have put really good links about the feral horse issues on here.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ Hi Kathy. If you're looking for straight answers, you've come to the right place, no sugar coatings here.

Please post more questions! It's great to continue the discussion and hopefully initiate more awareness of the situation and possibly be the catalyst for implementing humane and long-term solutions. Or at least more reporting, blogging, vblogging on them.

One of my favorite thing to watch on YouTube are America's wild horses' TIP (Trainer Incentive Program) trainers. They befriend and train wild mustangs for competition and adoption. To get you started here are a few: Elisa Wallace, J. Winburn, Sam VanFleet.


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## trailscout

It's a vexing problem. Horses evolved in North America but died out with many other Mega Fauna species 10,000 years or so ago, along with the sabre toothed tiger which was the horse's primary prey animal that kept the population size down.

Now the horse has no natural enemies with population size doubling about every four years. 

The Wild Horse Act allows euthanization just as is done with over population of unwanted dogs and cats. Public outcry caused the BLM to decide not to euthanize. The result is thousands of horses languishing in holding pens for the remainder of their lives.

If a cost effective method of spaying mares can be developed, the existing problem of over population could be solved. If every inch of public land was dedicated to wild horses, it would all become over populated and devastated in time. There are just no predators in most of the areas to keep populations in check as there are with other animals.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ if only the Sabre Tooth Tiger hasn't gone extinct (there are so many "if only...")

"Six million people are under correctional supervision in the U.S.—more than were in Stalin’s gulags.” wrote Adam Gopnik in The New Yorker on January 22, 2012. Adam Gopnik
The Caging of America
How We Misunderstand Mass Incarceration

I just sent Adam Gopnik via The New Yorker magazine the following:
Dear Mr. Gopnik.
Please consider writing a series of articles about programs that use incarcerated Americans to care for and train America's captured and imprisoned wild horses and burros.
Thank you.
The Horse Forum discussion database has a great deal on the subject:
Wild Horses & Burros Vs. Private Dometic Live Stock...


----------



## trailscout

As far as care, the lion's share of the cost is just for hay. The cost for the labor of putting the hay out is minimal.

Training does take time. Lots of it. And a horse trained to halter, lead, load, and pick up feet is many many times more likely to be adopted than otherwise.

The programs where prisoners train the mustangs do exist. There are several. However, the prisoner must be a top tier trustee. Not many of the prisoners will qualify for that low of security.

I visited a prison with a personal escort at one time in the past with an eye to teaching math and science. It's not all fun and games in there.

After the interview, I concluded I would not be suitable as my personality identifies me as an easy target.

Th prisoners that do participate in gentling do have a lower recidivation rate although they certainly do not represent a cross section of the prison population.

But still, because of the success of the programs that are in place, they would be expanded I'd think for certain, if there were more prisoners that met the qualifications.

After all that negative talk, I think it would really be great if there was a way. Some of the saddle trained horses by 'inmates' sell at auctions for a pretty penny.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ valid point -- 60,000, is 1% of the six million. There are at least that many wild horses in holding. Let's not forget all of those wonderful resourceful lovely wild donkeys that helped "man" settle the American West.

What do you think about American Youth programs? Adolescences is a tough time for most, and for those in juvenile detention centers, horses can help them find themselves! A horse will give them focus, responsibility, maturity, a lifetime of friendship, and maybe a career!

I love the idea of a generation of troubled kids becoming the next generation of horse folks. Equine Employment Opportunities: Farrier. Trainer. Show. Veterinarian. Equine Acupuncturist. Geneticist. Animal Nutritionist. Horse Farm Manager. Jockey. Wrangler. University Professor.

I vote to include wild horses & burros training centers in all juvenile detention centers. And, in every high school in the United States!!!


----------



## WildAbtHorses

"Breeding ALL my mares with random STALLIONS! LOTS of RARE foals!"
LOL it took me a few minutes to come to terms with this video. "Posted by a gamer!"
A clue I missed.


----------



## trailscout

WildAbtHorses said:


> I vote to include wild horses & burros training centers in all juvenile detention centers. And, in every high school in the United States!!!


Ya got my vote. However, it will take a LOT of votes before financing can be achieved.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Setting up America's Wild Horses & Burros centers with juvenile detention centers and high schools across the United States is a GREAT idea. What a win-win-win! How do we make it happen?

Building a Connection with Troubled Horses (or teens?):

"Who's in charge? A 6-minute video by Australian Ross Jacob:








Good Horsemanship


Ross Jacobs Good Horsemanship




www.goodhorsemanship.com.au









A 2017 Dr. Temple Grandin 7-minute interview video on horses:


----------



## trailscout

I'm a huge fan of Temple Grandin. I have two of her books which I have read and reread. If you have not read or watched about her early life experiences it is more than worthwhile. Incidentally, she herself thinks in pictures as she believes animals also do.

I have some slight problems with the position of the first video as it plays into the dominance theory which I do not subscribe too. It's just not part of the training protocol that I follow which uses science based conditioning to teach the horse not to push by rewarding the horse when not pushing.

I am an opponent of attempting to use herd dynamics upon which to place human interaction. Humans are recognized as special animals by the horse. If he used herd dominance on us, we would never be allowed to ride the horse. I believe.

We are not horses.


----------



## trailscout

Here's a 45 min vid of Temple on how horses think.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ Yes, I watched that one too! What a wonderful and insightful woman.

The following is a mash-up. Just Ignore the following; it's just ramblings.

I think this statement may be off-topic and incorrect. The following is just a thought. I think I meant to post the "Dealing with a Troubled Horse" by Ross. He mentioned troubled horse behavior was fear-based. And, I felt that troubled horses or troubled teen --behavior based in fear? Deal with them the same or let them figure out life together.

IMO, rules are essential (this is why my dogs are free spirits and drive me crazy because our rules are not clear). A combination of dominance theory vs. science-based conditioning "all you need is love!?!" I do enjoy watching herd dynamics & human-horse interactions.


----------



## trailscout

WildAbtHorses said:


> I think I meant to post the "Dealing with a Troubled Horse" by Ross. He mentioned troubled horse behavior was fear-based. And, I felt that troubled horses or troubled teen --behavior based in fear?


I've watched a couple more Ross videos since and I think he is a really good guy. I like him and most of what he says. But I do think he is still stuck on a few ideas or concepts that science has moved past.

Yes, just about all, or perhaps all, problems with horse/human interactions is fear based.....I believe. And I am beginning to believe it is so with humans also, teens and older also. But I have more trouble getting my head around some of the things humans do than I do understanding horses as fear based.

Mustang Maddy, mustang trainer par excellence, whom I follow does wrap both the horse and human pretty much in the same packaging.

You might enjoy some of her videos. Here's a short list that includes her "Teatime" talks. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXvpVBc467NycOo8qbsjgUTOtgaYiMnXO

And you will I'm sure enjoy this one as well.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ love her, her beautiful horse, her RV, her place, her methods. Thanks! I enjoyed several of her videos including “3 Ways to Boost Your Horse's Confidence” oh, and I’m ordering the books! Yes, you were right!


----------



## WildAbtHorses

“The BLM has plans to remove 90% of Utah’s Onaqui Wild Mustang herd by July 12” Is this true? Anyone have more information on this?

Is it on the BLM website? If yes, where?








Programs: Wild Horse and Burro: Herd Management: Gathers and Removals | Bureau of Land Management







www.blm.gov





An upcoming concert for the Onaqui wild mustangs will be held at Wild Heart Sanctuary with the Cactus Cola band...

Actress Katherine Heigl wants to save the Onaqui wild horses in Utah May 26, 2021, 11:58am MDT


----------



## boots

The BLM and the university professors and students who compile much of the data probably want to save horses, too. 

You know the area is in a hideous drought, right? Area ranchers have had their leases canceled on both private and public ground. Ranchers are reducing herd numbers on private ground, if they're lucky enough to have it. If the drought continues, state game agencies will increase the number of hunting licenses. The BLM is also not allowed to let the federal horses suffer. 

I've been involved in reporting poor conditions for herds. When I was in college, as a volunteer, and when I was foolish enough to have a lease on public ground for a very short time. The horses suffered while action to help was tied up in court. It's heartbreaking. 

Don't put much faith in photos on the "send us money to save the horses" sites. They often use photos from wet years when there is a lot of forage.


----------



## OuterBanks

WildAbtHorses said:


> “The BLM has plans to remove 90% of Utah’s Onaqui Wild Mustang herd by July 12” Is this true?


False, but typical wild horse "advocate" rhetoric. They *always *over-exaggerate to make the BLM's plans sound as awful as possible.



WildAbtHorses said:


> Anyone have more information on this?


The Onaqui Mountain HMA is grossly over-populated. The area can only support about 121 to 210 horses year around.

It's estimated that twice as many horses currently occupy the area.

If the herd's numbers are not reduced, then the animals will begin to starve and eventually start dying in droves.



WildAbtHorses said:


> Is it on the BLM website? If yes, where?


Here:- https://www.blm.gov/sites/blm.gov/files/docs/2021-02/wildhorse_gatherschedule_2252021.pdf


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ boots, thank you. Yes, the awful drought! Is it better to provide food and water to the animals in the wild on public land or herd the animals up and care for them in captivity? I watch how China is providing food and water for those happy wondering and smart Ellies.

^^ OB, thanks for the link. Gosh, a long list with a lot of numbers representing so many horses. The reality of the situation is heartbreaking. Just like with those very contented Ellies happily living the Gypsy life… China has no habitat large enough left for wondering Ellies. And America is running out of open land habitat for wild animals to wonder and enjoy their lives. Did I hear that Canada has run out of land for homes?

water and food for them all, please


----------



## trailscout

The real elephant in the room is TOO MANY PEOPLE.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I received Paula Morin's "Honest Horses" yesterday (oh my, such small print!) it is from the Lewis & Clark Library in Helena, Montana. Very cool.

Looking for the audible version, which doesn't seem to exist I found "Out of the Wild," which I can't wait to watch!!! 

"A hard-drinking cowboy (John Diehl) reluctantly takes a job at a dude ranch and begins to bond with a troubled mustang, a horse whose fierce temperament matches his own." Free under Amazon Prime!


----------



## trailscout

Look for your report. Hoping it's not another hollywood love story like horse whisper ineffectively disguised as an equine video.

After that blatantly negative post, based on the trailer, I cherish the concepts. But no matter how it turns out, it should (hopefully) help horses and people.....fingers crossed.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I just skimmed the book, and it makes the same arguments that we've been making here for years. The book has a lot of great information, and I'm going to read it, but here are some highlights:

Pg 300 "The point is that... humans were the straw that broke the camel's back."
Pg 305 "This is a complex story with many pieces." ... "natural control mechanisms... like the saber-toothed cat,..."
Pg 312 "...very hardy horses out there, simply because a horse has to be tough to thrive in that kind of country."

In one of the many documentaries on wild horses that I've watched, an owner of a wild mustang said, "*your jeans will wear out before the horse will.*"

IMO, it is all MANAGEMENT and public support of "the plan," which still needs to be written and published.

IMO Make sure our children are involved and let evolution take place. Anyone child that learns about and cares for horses will want to implement humane solutions.

Our hardy American Mustangs have a great deal to teach our future generations on how to survive in harmony with nature.
- - -

The "Out of the Wild" movie was NOT really about a Mustang and a broken man. Great title. Great possibilities. I skimmed through the majority of it.

"Hidalgo," I've watched a hundred times.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Chester, Pennsylvania "might be the worst place in the country?"
& Perfect4Mustangs?!?

It's a Great Place for a "Wild Horse Training Facility!"
A controlled environment: Crime, Poverty, Perfect4Mustangs!





Widener University, Chester, PA
Programs: Veterinary, Biology, Psychology, etc.








Widener University


Fast starts. Rapid advancement. Lasting success. Your path to a rewarding future starts here.




www.widener.edu





Marcus Hook, Chester, PA








Marcus Hook, Pennsylvania - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





Soccer Park built 2006?








Subaru Park - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





CBS Sunday Morning South Dakota's Black Hills Wild Horse Sanctuary. I know this does not represent the majority of how American wild horses live.
This video is Dayton O. Hyde's sanctuary, founded in 1988.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I have emailed the following local Philadelphia colleges: Widener, UofPenn, Lincoln, Cheyney, Bryn Mawr, and PennState about this idea.

*DRAFT* Proposed Proposal:

1. Form "The Chester Mustang Coalition: The CMC" to pool resources like academics, scientific, and financial.
2. Create a rollout and documentary plan with policies and procedures and lists who is responsible for what, such as;
a) Assess and document all aspects of the town of Chester for baseline.
b) Hire several expert humane mustang trainers to consult, teach, and provide over-site of the initiative.
c) Incorporate current university veterinary programs into horse maintenance, from stable and tack to horse farriers, nutritionists, dental, etc., all under the over-site of experienced horse-persons.
d) Create certificate programs for attendees to become farriers, trainers, riders, etc.
e) Obtain large property and/or multiple proprieties in Chester, PA for Mustang Rehabilitation & Training.
f) Build or acquire a building to hold classes for residents, students, investors, and visitors.
g) Create a comprehensive American Chester Burro program, The ACB Program? or Chester's American Burro Program The CAB? Burro America in Chester, The BAC? Burro's in Chester, The BC? Wild West Educated in the East?
h) Media coverage!!!
i) Volunteer and visitor programs.
j) Etc.


----------



## phantomhorse13

WildAbtHorses said:


> I have emailed the following local Philadelphia colleges: Widener, UofPenn, Lincoln, Cheyney, Bryn Mawr, and PennState about this idea.
> 
> *DRAFT* Proposed Proposal:
> 
> 1. Form "The Chester Mustang Coalition: The CMC" to pool resources


Where, exactly, do you think "resources" are going to come from? If the people of Chester can't afford food, how are they going to fund such a project?

UoP is one of the best vet schools in the country, with a lot more applicants than spots to fill. Why would they stop producing medical professionals and instead train horses? Penn State already has a very successful Quarter Horse breeding program associated with their Animal Science program (though out in the main campus, not any of the Philly campuses) - again, I don't see the administration being interested in scrapping a successful program to train horses that are less popular.

Sadly, the bottom line is always going to be money.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ Oh dear, and I was so optimistic about the possibilities and opportunities of the idea.

The Chester Mustang Coalition (The CMC) proposal is more an extension and expansion of existing programs. That is so cool about UofP's vet program and Penn State's horse breeding program. Yes! Those are great programs to build upon to provide better lives for humans and equines in depressed areas of the United States like Chester, PA.

Oh my, "less popular horses," this attitude must change! A hardy Mustang horse is for only those persons that are vital, robust, sturdy, and rugged. Mustangs are no ordinary horses and are for only those humans that can match their unique persona and abilities.

_"Where there's a will, there's a way,"_ first published in 1640 in Jacula Prudentusm, written by George Herbert.


----------



## trailscout

WildAbtHorses said:


> b) Hire several expert humane mustang trainers to consult, teach, and provide over-site of the initiative.


I don't want to be a downer, but you really do need to learn a lot lot more prior to putting together ideas.

My speculation is that if every town in the US was plastered with job openings for expert humane mustang trainers, not one, not a single application would be made by such a person. There would be applications, but they would not be expert humane mustang trainers.

That's not to say there aren't a few around, but the few that are around are not about to go onto a payroll.

Again, this is my speculation based on what I know about the horse world and mustangs and trainers.


----------



## boots

phantomhorse13 said:


> Sadly, the bottom line is always going to be money.


We have a finite amount of land and water. Much of it non-arable. What will grow crops is used for food for humans and hay for livestock and feral horses. 

I accept the limits of our environment. The global environment.


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## WildAbtHorses

^^ TrailScout. Ouch! Reality check. Your point is very valid and needs to be addressed. However, everyone has terms and a price. If cash isn't enough motivation --how about for the better good, short-term consulting work might be persuasive enough to help Mustangs, Americans, and America?

^ Boots. "non-arable land not suitable for any agricultural use" makes me think of a handful of U.S. cities built in deserts --Las Vegas, Palm Springs, Tucson, Phoenix. It seems anything is possible.

Need to contact the city officials and see what they think of the idea?!?


----------



## trailscout

Wondering........non of my business but still wondering.

Is there an equine rescue or sanctuary anywhere near enough to volunteer at providing that could be an option for you?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ LOL. What, don't you think I'm busy enough? or I should be more horsey hands-on? Google map has about sixteen horse rescues within 2-3 hours' drive from me.

Gosh, a year or two ago, I started creating this list of horse rescues: https://indd.adobe.com/view/f62fb7a9-ae3e-4e91-82a9-ee87e893ee2e


----------



## trailscout

Three hours to a rescue with 6 hours round trip and 4 hours helping would be a 10 hour day. That would not be practical.

I got the idea somehow, maybe incorrectly, that you were not able to spend time with horses.

Are you able to spend time with any horses at all?

Have you visited any of the sanctuaries on your list?

BTW, you need to add a C to the word sanctuary before you send out or share the list.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ Oops! Thanks for the spellcheck!

Correct, I don’t spend any time with horses. Have always loved horses and cowboy movies. Got hooked on documentaries and that is how I ended up here two years ago July 9th.


----------



## trailscout

If there is any any way you could visit a rescue, sanctuary, or even a private barn that would allow you to visit that might be more nearby, I would really really encourage you to do that.............if you are configured in such a way you can.

A lot of these movies and documentaries can leave a non-horse experienced individual with a false impression about what a horse really is.

If you are really wild about them, it would be nice for you to pet one, smell one, maybe clean their poop from a pen. I do that twice a day in their feeding area close to the house and I never tire of it. It simply reminds me.........You've got Equines!!!

Some barns will offer some free riding lessons for volunteers. Maybe there's one within 30 minutes?


----------



## trailscout

I'm just thinking that relating to a virtual horse may be like relating to a virtual prince charming whereas when you really start relating to a guy it's a whole new ballgame. Sorta the same with horses.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ LOL I'd take a pony over a prince any day!

^^ you're making miss being around horses

Growing up, a dear friend had horses, and I spent my summers at camps with horses. I've groomed horses, cleaned hoofs, toted bales of straw & hay, and mucked stalls! Yes, all enjoyable activities. I love horse shows, hunt clubs, and rodeos and, since I was five, I've loved dressing like a cowgirl, even if I'm not a real one.

Some day maybe I'll have a horse or two in my life --just not right now.


----------



## phantomhorse13

boots said:


> We have a finite amount of land and water. Much of it non-arable. What will grow crops is used for food for humans and hay for livestock and feral horses.
> 
> I accept the limits of our environment. The global environment.


I don't disagree with that at all.

My money comment was more directed at programs, like the one at Penn State, that are currently financially-viable and the unlikeliness of them changing to work with mustangs, as that is going to be much less profitable.


----------



## trailscout

WildAbtHorses said:


> ^^ you're making miss being around horses


I'm calling that a win



WildAbtHorses said:


> ^ LOL I'd take a pony over a prince any day!


You have a quick and sharp wit



WildAbtHorses said:


> I've groomed horses, cleaned hoofs, toted bales of straw & hay, and mucked stalls! Yes, all enjoyable activities.


Good!! So it's not virtual but memory and longing based.



WildAbtHorses said:


> Some day maybe I'll have a horse or two in my life --just not right now.


Thinking.........Maybe you remember.......Who was it on this thread that recently quoted an old saying, "Where there's a will there's a way"?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

How wonderful it would be if all American's, and not just Native American's were referred to as the "Horse People." 

This story confirms even one person can make a difference. "a charismatic Navajo horseman, Rudy Shebala and the Young Lapwai, Idaho Horsemanship Program."

Horse Tribe documentary




__





Nez Perce Tribe







nezperce.org












Nez Perce - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org








__





Watch Horse Tribe | Prime Video


Legendary as one of America's greatest horse tribes, the 21st century Nez Perce decided to bring horses back to their land and lives with the unlikely help of a charismatic Navajo horseman, Rudy Shebala.



www.amazon.com


----------



## trailscout

Just for giggles, I looked up the US population=331,449,281 with a land mass of 3,800,000 square miles.

If every person young and old had a horse, there would be a horse for every 7.3 acres. (i did not double check math)

That is without leaving any land for roads, residences, barns, schools, or anything else. Or for growing hay for horses that could not exist on their 7.3 acres.

On the ranch I lived on for 5 years, the stocking rate for brood cows was around one for 70 acres. Seven zero. During normal times. Right now in the midst of a horrible drought, I doubt they can run half that many. And a horse takes more than a cow/calf unit.

So, bottom line is, there just ain't enough land for everyone to be horse people.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Almost every problem confronting humanity and the animals of the earth is TOO MANY PEOPLE.

'Course I'll admit, I'm not inclined to offer myself as part of the reduction just yet.

Edit: I'll also mention that one of the theories about the causes of the extinction of the mega fauna in North America which included the sabre toothed tiger, woolly mammoth, and the horse was diseases brought by the mammals that accompanied the early aboriginal inhabitants that crossed over the Bearing Straight into North America.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ LOL. During my rambunctious teenage years, my mother enjoyed reminding me what I once said to her, "families should have no more than two children," which one of my teachers had stated during my young impressional years. Important to Note: I'm the youngest of five. Humor runs in the family.

RE: Americans & Horse-people. *What if in the future* -- 
The US only built environmentally friendly planned communities that included ample open spaces with hay and straw fields, human and animal feed crops, and horse stables. Horses are herd animals. Would that work?

*Oops!* The focus of this thread needs to be on how best to manage the US's public open lands and support/manage animals (wild and domestic) and humans on it.

In 1780 US population 2,780,369.
In 1880 US population 50,189,209.
In 1980 US population 226,545,805.
In 2020 US population 331,449,281.








Demographic history of the United States - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## trailscout

3MULES.COM – The Mules – living an ages old nomadic way of life. is in full enthusiastic support of your plan. And canvases city halls in an ongoing basis for such plan.

Some areas do already support green areas between localities. That was done at least in Vacaville, CA over 20 years ago. Don't know the current status.

Be interesting to see what he future holds in terms of population. Advanced countries including the US of course has been way below 2 per couple for a long long time. Immigration is the only thing that has kept the population increasing.

SSI and retirement et al was based on an ever expanding work force. Sort of like farmers of old having lots of children to help support them in their old age. (not sure that ever worked out well)

Anyhow, when there is not an expanding work force paying into the system while years off from collecting, the funds dry up for existing retiree's.

All the so called third world countries are becoming more and more advanced along with a falling birth rate. So when immigration ceases and the population of the US stabilizes or drops off, there's gonna be a mega financial upheaval and turmoil. Some of it has already started.

So who knows what'll happen. Maybe Elon will take everybody to Mars where all will live happily ever after.

Except me. If horses can't go, I'm staying here. (back on topic)


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Economics! Sigh, so much to think about. But dogs, horses, and donkeys make me smile! If we could all agree on a "To Do List" to make sure we're heading in the right direction... with folks like Jennifer Gates, Jessica Springsteen, and others interested in horses... we should be able to?!?

Charlotte Dujardin and Valegro via The Gaitpost





Georgia Bloomberg via Noelle Floyd





Lately, I've been getting lost in these unbelievable stable videos. Like people and horses live like this? Dreams Worlds!


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Today I'm just interested in pictures of America's Wild Horses & Burros.

Carol Walker's website is cleverly called Wild Hoof Beats. Even if you disagree or agree with her, she has posted two wonderful pictures of American wild horses.

_Ginger Kathrens'_ Dry Creek Quartet website has many interesting pictures of America's Mustangs, including foals.

No links are provided because I would prefer not to have this post deleted as possible advertising.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Hi. Lucy just had three pups! I’m so hooked on this Doggy Daycare in Australia. When they went into lockdown a few weeks ago they started to work with the local dog shelter -training and finding homes.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

This is one of my favorites of their posts. Makes me LOL!!! And it’s a great example of how much fun the dogs have at doggy daycare farm trips. (They do have at least one horse.)


----------



## WildAbtHorses

this one introduces you to Bandit… everyone loves Bandit! We need Horsey Daycare Farm Trips!!!


----------



## COWCHICK77

@WildAbtHorses are you on FB? 
I know we aren't allowed to link to FB on here but there is a guy who follows the Kigers in Oregon. He photographs along with hours and hours of trail cam videos. You might find it interesting.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ Yes! Very excited to learn about the Kiger Mustangs! Discovered in the U.S. in 1977!

Thank you!

DNA testing has shown that Kiger mustangs are descended largely from Spanish horses brought to North America in the 17th century, a bloodline thought to have largely disappeared from mustang herds before the Kiger horses were found.








Kiger mustang - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





What a hearty wild horse in an incredible location!





weird music but BLM video of the location


----------



## Woodbury

I've read through this thread and I just _have _to ask - @WildAbtHorses You sent emails to a great number of politicians, schools, organizations, charities, celebrities, youtubers, netflix, goodness only knows what else... 

But, did anyone ever reply to you? Take up the cause of the american mustang like you were hoping for?


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ Uhm... two years of countless emails, flyers, postcards, copies of the book to various folks, 500 posts, and you want to know if it's made a difference? I don't know. 

I've come up with a new idea! A comic book with a Wild Mustang named Billy Jack (after the 1970's Billy Jack movies) and his two friends, a Red-tail Hawk and Wild Burro, go around the country saving humans.


----------



## Woodbury

WildAbtHorses said:


> ^ Uhm... two years of countless emails, flyers, postcards, copies of the book to various folks, 500 posts, and you want to know if it's made a difference? I don't know.


Yes, I would appreciate knowing if _any _of your efforts have made a difference. 

So tell me, have they? Did anyone reply to you? Offer to make any of your many "ideas" a reality? 

I mean... you've clearly talked *a lot *on this thread, but I'm puzzled here at the end - Because I get the sense that no one you've contacted has listened to you or done anything.



WildAbtHorses said:


> I've come up with a new idea! A comic book with a Wild Mustang named Billy Jack (after the 1970's Billy Jack movies) and his two friends, a Red-tail Hawk and Wild Burro, go around the country saving humans.


Cute idea, but how would you make it happen? Can you draw on a professional level? How about writing? Do you have contacts within the comic book industry? Are you independently wealthy enough to *pay *people to write, draw, color and market this comic book for you if you don't have the necessary skills to do those things yourself? 

I would also like to point out that naming the main character of this comic book after another pre-established character is an incredibly bad idea. Whoever currently owns the Billy Jack IP would be well within their rights to send you a cease and desist letter... and then take you to court (To sue you into oblivion) if you didn't do what that letter told you to do. 

--------------

Look, I'm not out to bully you or anything. But I genuinely believe that you need a reality check. If you want to help america's mustangs, then you need to be serious about it and put your own time, effort and money into them. 

Just shooting your ideas to random people will not accomplish anything. To make a *real *change, you have to _be _the change.

Time to buckle up and get down to the nitty gritty reality of the situation, because gushing about cute YouTube videos (Most of which don't even seem to have a connection to the mustang or its plight) or fantasizing about rich people clearly isn't getting anything actually done.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ lol yep time to step up or shut up -thanks


----------



## Woodbury

With regards to the Kiger Mustang, they are *very *much a "manufactured" breed of horse with a _ton _of hype surrounding them that honestly? They don't live up to.

Here's the actual story behind them: A high ranking BLM employee -His name was E Ron Harding- back in the mid-'70's (Just when the BLM was beginning to actual go out and take inventory of the mustangs and organize where they roamed into HMA's), decided to manage Oregon's mustang herds for specific traits in the hopes of making them more adoptable to the general. This was illegal under the '71 mustang and burro law, it specifically said that the herds were to be managed in a "Hands off, don't interfere with nature." sort of manner.

But E Ron Harding went out and did it anyway. I suspect that he had an inkling of what the future of the situation would be, IE: That few people would want to adopt tiny and generic looking horses.

Anyhow, he succeeded and his legacy lives on to this day. Oregon's mustangs are renowned for their good confirmation, pretty colors, interesting patterns, sane tempers and larger than average (For a mustang) heights.

The Kigers are arguably his most successful project, given that their herds boast a near 100% adoption rate and are bred in *captivity *by dozens of devoted breeders.

Ron literally created them. The guy went out, oversaw the first round ups and inventories of Oregon's mustang herds, took note of any well conformed *and *dun and grulla colored horses he saw and had them placed on two isolated sections of Steens Mountain... after having what are now called the Kiger and Riddle Mountain HMA's throughly gathered and thus cleared of any of the actual horses that were originally found there.

Oh yes, the Kigers were not originally found where they live now- The original "herds" were made up of dun/grulla horses found _intermixed _amoungst horses of all sizes, shapes and colors! From no less than *Twelve* different ares, some of them not even in Oregon! (They were: Kiger -Only a single horse!-, Riddle Mountain -Only seven horses, a stallion and six mares- Warm Springs, Palomino Buttes, Sheepshead, Paisley Desert, Potholes, Sand Springs, South Steens, Beatys Butte -The infamous Beatys Butte twenty seven-, Sulphur Springs -Utah!- and "Nevada"... Yeah, no specific herd listed, my source literally just says that two mares came from Nevada.)

The Kigers being "Spanish" was at best, a lucky accident. Back in the '70's *all *Dun or Grulla colored mustangs were thought to be "Spanish" because that's what scientists _believed _were the only colors that primitive spanish type horses came in. 

That's why Ron gathered up all the good looking duns/grullas he could find and made certain to isolate them from other horses. He even established two populations as an insurance measure! 

He specifically wanted to produce a certain type of horse. And then a few years later in the early '80's when Kiger and Riddle Mountain were "officially" gathered for the first time he saw that those HMA's were already producing the type of horse he had in mind for those areas... 

So he literally took some knowledgeable horse breeders out, showed off the first fruits of his labors and pitched them as a new breed of horse to those people! He WANTED the Kigers to become a breed! 

Which is exactly what happened. One guy was so impressed (And no doubt smelling a potential gold mine opportunity) by those typey little duns/grullas that he adopted four of them from the Burns corrals right then and there. 

That stud colt and those three young fillies became the start of the Kigers as a breed of horse. That breeder bred the heck out of them, started the first Kiger registry and then added more broodstock to his domestic herd via adopting as many horses as he was allowed at every Kiger adoption straight through to the late '90's/early '00's. 

Other horse people followed his example, aquired and registered their own stock and nowadays the Kiger is a well established breed, if still a niche one. 

And that's how the Kiger Mustang came to be.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Book: Honest Horses

Morin, Paula. "Honest Horses: Wild Horses In The Great Basin." University of Nevada Press, 2006. Project MUSE muse.jhu.edu/book/5972.

Pages 329 - 336 "Temple Grandin, Ph.D.: Animal Behaviorist, Fort Collings, Colorado" summary in the Conclusion section of the book.

IMO Americans should heed her words; they are objective, practical, full of common sense, and are grounded with much love and caring.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

October 15, 2021
Temple Grandin on a horse talking about autistic children and horses


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Here are the Adobe Spark America Wild Horses & Burro Presentations from 2019. There are full of reference links.
I cannot believe it's been over two years.

Reference Links

America's Wild Horses


----------



## WildAbtHorses

From the BBC News 08Nov2021

Mary Hone on America’s Wild Horses:





Wow! Beautiful pictures of Wild American Mustangs!


https://maryhonephotography.com/


----------



## WildAbtHorses

this is the first time I’ve heard of a “Storefront for Mustangs” — very interesting








Mustangs


We currently have over 100 horses available . Please call and make an appointment to come by and see them. 859 489 8141. Our next adoption is September 30th. To get in line to choose your horse be at...



www.fallcreekfallsequestrian.com





she lost her 2021 TIP Mustang and went to the Mustang Storefront in Tennessee to get a Mustang from Lost Creek, WY to compete in the Nov 2021 TIP Challenge TIP - Trainer Incentive Program - Mustang Heritage Foundation


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## WildAbtHorses

new release movie: Mustang Saviors









Mustang Saviors


A remarkable program addresses suicides among U.S. military veterans by pairing vets with wild mustangs taken straight off the range as a way to turn despair into hope.




www.rottentomatoes.com


----------



## WildAbtHorses

This is the 1st I have heard about these rides:




__





Cities | Trail to Zero







www.trailtozero.org





Illinois:








The Herd | BraveHearts







braveheartsriding.org


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Checkerboard roundup has begun? What does this mean?

I wish that the NYT, PBS, CNN would provide regular coverage of what is happening with America's Wild Horses and Burros. The weekly reports (a podcast and/or YouTube short) would give the public an objective 15-minute update on America's horses and burros.

2020 BLM WYOMING RED DESERT COMPLEX GATHER








Programs: Wild Horse and Burro: Herd Management: Gathers and Removals: Wyoming: 2020 Red Desert Complex Wild Horse Gather | Bureau of Land Management







www.blm.gov





The complex includes the Antelope Hills, Crooks Mountain, Green Mountain, Lost Creek and Stewart Creek herd management areas (HMAs), spanning 703,500 acres of public land and 49,500 acres of private land in south-central Wyoming.

The BLM plans to remove approximately 2,400 horses to return wild horse populations to within the appropriate management levels and ensure long-term viability of sage-grouse populations in the area. The appropriate management level for the complex is 480-724 horses, and its current estimated population is approximately 3,000 horses.

Oct 7, 2021 Wyoming News Exchange “Wild horse advocates cry foul on enormous roundup, removal” By Angus M. Thuermer Jr. “The U.S. Bureau of Land Management plans to spend up to the next month rounding up 4,300 wild horses in southwestern Wyoming.“

Oct 9 2021 LuckyThreeRanch "The Wyoming Checkerboard Roundup has begun."
The roundup is massive that it is scheduled to continue through February of 2022.
Approximately 3,555 wild horses will be permanently removed.
[The horses] will be confined in feedlot pens that provide just 700 square feet of space per horse.

[The result/goal by BLM is] loss of 52% of the state’s wild horse habitat?

Questions: Has the BLM increased their 2022 budget by $35 million so they can remove wild horses and burro populations for public lands? What do they plan to do with all of the horses they remove?

American's have to stop removing wild horses from open land and putting them into holding facilities. There are other ways to control populations that are more humane. Americans keep wasting money, resources, and life on a "solution" that has not worked for the last 50 years.

7-Dec-2021 10:45 AM EST, by McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario Canada:
Ancient DNA found in soil samples reveals mammoths, Yukon wild horses survived thousands of years longer than believed


----------



## boots

I would ask the author, "Why does the US have to stop removing horses and burros to protect the range and other species (including us)?"

I prefer a more permanent solution. Or, a consistent solution.


----------



## Knave

As I read it, I thought that if they would simply allow the horses to be butchered, making some sort of income may offset the income of what they kept in holding pens. 

They could get it to a point where they canned a specific number of horses a year, kept so many in holding, and then left a manageable number on the mountain. There would be horses available for adoption to the public, and the horses would eventually become a source of income to the government rather than a monumental loss.

However, practical ideas to do fly.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Jun 19, 2021 (this must be a rerelease) - Caballo: The Wild Horses Of North America (Wildlife Documentary) 




Aug 20, 2018 - Wild Horses - Award-Winning Micro Documentary Film by W E Simpson (he writes on on subjects related to wild horses, wildlife, wildfire, and public land (forest) management).


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I have a hard time monetarily justifying keeping the wild herds in collection stations. They're not properly cared for, managed or fed and don't have enough room to be mentally sound. I also have a hard time justifying spending the amount of money required to remove them, sell them at auction (paying people $1000 to take one), allow them to continue overbreeding and overgrazing, when we are cutting more deserving and productive programs due to shortage of funds and inflation. We need to cull.


----------



## Zimalia22

I have a hard time justifying keeping them in the holding stations. They should be sold, even if to the plants, and the funds used to care for the rest. 
My question, have any of you actually seen a holding station? I have, several. There is more hay there than you can shake a stick at. It will boggle your mind how much hay is there! So to say they are not properly fed is in error. They are.
But, the question remains, why should they literally be on welfare the rest of their lives merely because they were running out. The ones in the stations are the ones that have been to the "adoptions" several times, and not adopted. So they are warehoused. The big losers in all this are the US taxpayers.
The BLM has a tiger by the tail, and it's staring him right in the face.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Collection Stations for Captured Wild Horses does not sound good even if there is plenty of hay and caring caretakers.

Horses Held In Captivity Must Have:
Fresh Water (up to ten gallons a day).
Feed (proper feed and grazing).
Basic Befriending (must accept man’s touch).
Hoof Care (every six weeks).
Dental Care (every six months).
Amble Open Space to Run.
Veterinarian Care (bites, wounds, etc.)

BLM Get Involved: "There are many opportunities to get involved in the management and protection of America’s wild horses and burros. The BLM relies on the advice and guidance of its National Wild Horse and Burro Advisory Board, as well as the hard work and determination of thousands of volunteers, partners, donors and contractors."
FYI Programs: Wild Horse and Burro | Bureau of Land Management

Yes, still here and looking for answers/solutions.


----------



## Knave

Why would you say they are required to accept touch or have their teeth done twice a year? They haven’t been touched at the holding pens. The are run through the chute for things.

As far as dental work, do you think they would see a dentist on the mountain? I am of the believe, now with humans as well, that dentists need used when there is a problem, but not before. Unnecessary work on teeth can be quite damaging. At least horse dentists are not as often scam artists as human ones.

Yes, I will agree that hooves need cared for when horses are no longer on the mountain. Now, a privately owned person is going to be more apt to care for feet than at the holding pens. I know they do actually work on feet occasionally though. It’s not an easy process, knocking down a feral horse, tying him up, and trimming his feet. Imagine the sheer numbers one would have to do then.

I don’t assume it is done regularly, or unnecessarily. A horse who’s feet have broken off somewhat manageably probably isn’t done. Like cows- they also have hooves that grow and require trimming. The cows who go to the mountain do not, and the cows who stay on the flat occasionally get so awful that we take the nippers to them in the chute. It’s rare.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Yes, I agree with you.

I don't think that wild horses in holding pens are receiving the necessary attention they should. That is what I was trying to convey in my posted list.

The situation continues to break my heart and yes I am still just sitting on my couch watching Soap-Operas and eating Bonbons (not really -don't watch soap-operas but I do love chcolates.


----------



## Knave

Well, I’m not sure you should feel too awful for the horses in the holding pens. Yes, I think in many cases privately owned horses have it better. Yet, often people who are wanting to adopt mustangs do not have the knowledge to care for a horse. Now, I don’t think it’s great how the government finds it necessary to micromanage people who adopt the horses, but they do so because of that.

Now, the horses on the mountain are at times happy. Springtime in a decently managed allotment can be happy, and really if less horses are on the mountain and it hasn’t been overgrazed in the past, they are happy during the summer too. Yet, a lot of those horses would prefer the holding pens, even those on the better range.

You see, I believe basic needs must be met first. I think there is a psyc theory that explains it as a need hierarchy. First you have to have water and food (and humans need shelter too), before you can even consider caring about things beyond that. So, the starving horse on the mountain would much prefer food than a place to run. He can’t run far in any case when he is malnourished.

I went to the holding pens to buy Queen. There actually was a lot of room for those horses to run. So much so, in fact, that we had to take out a side by side and binoculars to try to get a view of any of them, and even then it was extremely difficult to pick out a number. Queen stood out color wise, making her easier to spot, and all of us working together had a hard time picking out her number.


----------



## Zimalia22

@WildAbtHorses Have you ever actually seen a holding pen with your own eyes? Not just pictures, those can be slanted, but I'm talking IN PERSON. 
Each horse there costs the American taxpayer over $17,000 per year in care to be in those pens. Every horse. 
We are not talking about small corrals. The pens are a lot of acres big. And across the entire length of it, are mangers FULL of hay. 
Go see for yourself.


----------



## Knave

@Zimalia22 is completely right about the pens. Queen had far more room there than she does here. It was huge! A big pizza type set up… it was very cool. Everything about the system is set up to best handle the horses, and the chutes are amazing.


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## WildAbtHorses

Hi. No, I have not (yet) visited any holding pens of captured wild horses. Do they get regular pedicures? teeth cleaning? grooming? and how much does all of this cost tax payers? won't it be cheaper to leave them in the wild? and wouldn't they be happier? but not during droughts or wild fires.

Stable Horse Training - Graeme rescue/rehab/train Canadian wild horses.Two points for this comment: First, it would be nice to have a U.S. vs. Canada handling of wild horses comparison, and second, I got the impression until the wild becomes domestic, it has food "aggression" because of food "insecurity" issues.












Doggy Daycare Farm Trips - Australia rescued a race horse "Spirit" from the glue factory but needs someone to convert it from race horse to a family horse. I cannot located DDFT video on Spirit.


https://www.youtube.com/c/DoggyDaycareFarmTrips/videos


----------



## Zimalia22

How much does each horse cost the taxpayer when in the pens? On the average, $17,000 per horse per year. And that was several years ago. I would imagine that's gone up just like everything else. 
Cheaper to leave them in the wild? That's not the point. The point is, there are too many of them for their ranges. They get to fall, they are starving. No animal is happy starving.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ it is heartbreaking

Can we learn from feral cat studies?

“The most effective way to keep the number of feral cats in check is a widespread program called trap-neuter-return (TNR). Cats are trapped, neutered, vaccinated, ear-tipped (ear-tipping removes the tip of one of a cat’s ears while the animal is under anesthesia as a future marker to indicate that the cat is altered and belongs to a colony), and returned to their territories, where they lead healthier lives and no longer reproduce. Friendly cats are re-homed, and kittens are removed from colonies while they are young enough to socialize. Over time, the population of the colony naturally decreases as the cats maintain their territorial boundaries, which leads to fewer cats per capita. This is supported by data from the Humane Society, which adds that “programs that attempt to use lethal control to eliminate cat populations are inhumane, ineffective, and wasteful of scarce resources.””









Feral Cats of the Last Frontier


Feral cats in Alaska face unique challenges.



www.britannica.com


----------



## Zimalia22

They have already tried sterilizing horses and returning them to the wild. Sadly, mice reproduce faster than grass. Untill the numbers are greatly reduced, they will still starve. Horses also have a longer lifespan than cats. 
While it was a small step in the right direction, it's not the answer.


----------



## QtrBel

It will take a mixed management to get get things where they need to be for one main management method to work but you'll still need mixed management strategies.


----------



## bsms

"The BLM primarily uses a vaccine called Porcine Zone Pellucida, or PZP, which has been approved by the EPA since 2012 for use in wild horses and burros. The BLM is also expanding its use of a newer vaccine called GonaCon-Equine, which works slightly differently than PZP, as well as soft silicone intrauterine devices....

*The PZP vaccine is generally only effective for 1-2 years*, after which an annual booster is required to keep it working. There is some evidence that GonaCon-Equine can last up to 5-6 years if boostered after the initial dose...

The BLM works, often with volunteers and partners, to identify, track and dart wild horses to help control growth in some smaller herds. *Most wild horses in larger, more remote herds are not approachable enough to be darted and would need to be gathered for treatment*. For those herds, the BLM must capture, treat, and release the animals back to public lands.

*Studies indicate that 75 percent or more of the mares in a herd must be treated to have a significant effect on herd growth. For those herds that are close to a sustainable size, the BLM is prioritizing fertility control treatments* to slow future growth and reduce the need for removals.

*The need to frequently re-treat wild horses with vaccines is a barrier to more wide-spread use* in larger, more remote herds where darting is not practical or effective."








Top 5 things to know about wild horse and burro fertility control | Bureau of Land Management







www.blm.gov





Neutering is attacked by "animal rights groups" as barbaric, inhumane, etc, etc. The only way to make the animal rights activists happy is to let the horses take over the entire range and hope they then start farting anti-fertility farts. Although I suspect the animal rights activist groups are already quite happy raising money for their salaries by attacking everything the BLM tries.

To be clear, the last statement is not an attack on you, @WildAbtHorses. But no matter what the BLM tries or how much research they do, they will never satisfy the groups dedicated to raising funds by twisting everything around, often to support an anti-meat agenda. IMHO. But nothing personal directed at anyone debating the issues on HF.


----------



## Linoone

Since it's relevant to this thread, I thought that I would share.

From May 24th (Beginning at 4:00 PM Mountain Time) to May 31st (Ending at 4:00 PM Mountain Time) the BLM is holding an online adoption event. Horses from over sixteen HMAs will be available. Adoption applications need to be sent in by May 21st to participate.






Wild Horse and Burro Online Corral







wildhorsesonline.blm.gov


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ It's great that this discussion thread is still active (all comments, ideas, suggestions, and viewpoints welcomed), AND thanks for the online adoption info!!!

Pages of beautiful horses up for adoption (I know it's still only a tiny percentage of the total available): Wild Horse and Burro Online Corral

I didn't see any donkeys. It would be wonderful to have a YouTube Channel reporting on these animals in the holding pens. Personalize each animal to generate more attention for them. Just a thought, and channels may already exist --I just haven't found them --yet.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Wild Horses at the beach in North Carolina - CBS Sunday Morning moment of zen


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Picasso was arguably the most famous wild stallion in the country when, *at about 30 years old, he disappeared in 2019*.

Opinion: Expose the inhumanity of wild horse roundups
By Julie Marshall - The Denver Post June 16, 2022
Pardon Our Interruption

Stunning portrait of Picasso, Mustang from Sand Wash Basin, CO.
WILD MUSTANG - PICASSO (22") | WilsonAxpe.com

The life and legend of America's most famous wild horse
Denver7 January 19, 2020 with Ryan Osborne, Journalist


----------



## boots

I will argue it is inhumane to let the horses and burros reproduce, unfettered in areas devastated by drought. Inhumane to the squids. Inhumane to other flora and fauna living there.


----------



## Linoone

boots said:


> I will argue it is inhumane to let the horses and burros reproduce, unfettered in areas devastated by drought. Inhumane to the squids. Inhumane to other flora and fauna living there.


Those who claim that the horses will "naturally regulate themselves" if left unmanaged clearly have *no idea *what that entails.

@WildAbtHorses Allow me to demonstrate what eventually happens when free-roaming horses _aren't _rounded-up.

Nellis Air Force Base/Nevada Wild Horse Range in 1991: Racing Neglect, Drought and Death, Odd Allies Aid Nevada's Wild Horses (Published 1991)

Gray Mountain on the Navajo Nation in Arizona, 2018 : Over 100 horses apparent victims of drought on the Navajo Nation near Cameron, Ariz.


----------



## boots

^^^ Mother Nature can be a nasty old hide.


----------



## Aprilswissmiss

WildAbtHorses said:


> ^ it is heartbreaking
> 
> Can we learn from feral cat studies?
> 
> “The most effective way to keep the number of feral cats in check is a widespread program called trap-neuter-return (TNR). Cats are trapped, neutered, vaccinated, ear-tipped (ear-tipping removes the tip of one of a cat’s ears while the animal is under anesthesia as a future marker to indicate that the cat is altered and belongs to a colony), and returned to their territories, where they lead healthier lives and no longer reproduce. Friendly cats are re-homed, and kittens are removed from colonies while they are young enough to socialize. Over time, the population of the colony naturally decreases as the cats maintain their territorial boundaries, which leads to fewer cats per capita. This is supported by data from the Humane Society, which adds that “programs that attempt to use lethal control to eliminate cat populations are inhumane, ineffective, and wasteful of scarce resources.””
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feral Cats of the Last Frontier
> 
> 
> Feral cats in Alaska face unique challenges.
> 
> 
> 
> www.britannica.com


As a vet student with a particular focus on shelter medicine and also a strong interest in feral horse population control - the short answer is no, unfortunately.

TNR with cats works for a few reasons that are unique to cats and do not apply to horses. First being, cats are largely solitary animals and will defend their spaces. Studies have found that TNR is a more effective population strategy than euthanasia because once the cats are released, they will "stake out" a territory and prevent more cats from spilling in from nearby communities (which is exactly what happens when you just euthanize). Horses live in herds and while yes, they will consume resources that would otherwise be available to other horses, they are not individually possessive of large territories. And, we've proven anyway that limited resources do not actually limit mustang populations - they just starve or go thirsty for a decent chunk of the year. If they do die, it's a slow and painful death. In the meantime, the horses are still doing significant damage to the local ecosystem.

Cats have much larger litters much faster than horses, so spaying a single cat makes a much bigger impact in the population than spaying a single horse.

It's also very important that when you're trying to control a population, you control the fertility of the females, not the males. You could have fifty intact females and all it takes is a single stallion to impregnate all fifty mares. Or, you could have fifty stallions and one intact mare, and now you just have one pregnant mare, which is much more ideal.

The issue with that plan is that spaying a horse is not a simple procedure, and it is not fast, efficient, cost-effective, accessible, or humane. With cats - volunteers can trap many cats in their own backyard and transport them to a local vet with a single vehicle. An efficient vet can spay a cat in under ten minutes, and the anesthesia drugs required are minimal. With horses - you have to hire people and pay for heavy equipment to go round the horses up, drive them off the range, and into a corral, then you need to pay people to sedate the horses, and you need to hire a vet to drive all the way out to the middle of government territory to do standing ovariectomies on them all (which is the part regarded as inhumane and very risky in terms of tissue trauma and infection). The drugs necessary for a thousand pound animal are astronomical compared to a five to ten pound animal.

And... TNR takes time. You will not get control over a cat population in one year. Not five years. Maybe you'll start to see a dent after ten. Most likely twenty or thirty before the population is somewhat effectively controlled. And we're talking about animals that only live (when feral) for three to five years, so the generational impact is seen faster than in feral horses that live upwards of fifteen or twenty years.


A bullet is cheap, fast, humane, and permanent, and does not involve the extended suffering of animals caused by abdominal surgery or starving to death. I still think the best solution in terms of mustang management and wildlife preservation - though definitely not publicly acceptable - is to let skilled shooters hunt mustangs as trophy animals.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ very interesting. -thank you.
-life choices can be tough and heart wrenching—no animal or human should go hungry, thirsty, …

on a lighter note - a new movie to watch


----------



## WildAbtHorses

Linoone thanks for the heads-up. Now I'm REALLY excited to watch.

"In this instance, King's “friends” are horses, specifically the therapeutic *Nokota* therapy horses..."

Nakota (or Nakoda or Nakona) is the endonym used by those Assiniboine Indigenous people in the US, and by the Stoney People, in Canada.

"The Nokota Horse Conservancy exists to ensure the survival of the historically significant and endangered Nokota breed."

"While the Nokota® population is of mixed ancestry, a small percentage of the horses exhibit conformation that is consistent with a "Spanish colonial" heritage, quite similar to the Spanish mustang breed. These horses have come to be called “traditional” Nokotas®, in homage to the earliest Indian and ranch horses."


----------



## WildAbtHorses

^ I had to fast forward through most of the preacher scenes. I would have enjoyed more about Jack Red Feather and Old Mac (55:45). Old Mac reminded me of an old movie with a very young Martin Sheen.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

** Wild Horses & Wildfires **

NPR _Short Wave_ created a GREAT 14-minute podcast!

“Wild Horses Could Keep Wildfire At Bay” 02Aug2022
Featuring Capt. William E. Simpson II, USMM Retired, Founder-CEO of Wild Horse Fire Brigade, Ethologist Author and Conservationist.

An informative and enjoyable 14-minutes podcast with Emily Kwong and Stephanie O’Neil: 
Wild Horses Could Keep Wildfire At Bay : Short Wave
_This wonderful episode was produced by Rebecca Ramirez, edited by Gisele Grayson and fact-checked by Rachel Carlson. Natasha Branch was the audio engineer._

William E. Simpson II grew up in the mountains of southern Oregon on his family's working ranch, where horses were an integral part of daily life. After graduating from Oregon State University, he embarked on worldwide adventures, spending years sailing the high sea exploring reefs and islands. He now lives off-grid in the Siskiyou Mountains, surrounded by wild animals, including herds of wild mustangs. He frequently writes about wild and domestic horses, their lives and predicaments. _https://filmfreeway.com/WilliamESimpsonII_


----------



## boots

Yes. Good grazing practices (coupled with old time/ancient/traditional forestry) goes a long way in reducing the scope and intensity of wild fires.

It's better for wildlife, too.


----------



## WildAbtHorses

The Hill posted the story. The more recognition the story gets, the better for the horses and the environment.

The Hill - Equilibrium/Sustainability “Wild horses could help temper Western wildfires”
By Saul Elbein and Sharon Udasin 02Aug2022 6:27 PM ET
Equilibrium/Sustainability — Wild horses could help temper Western wildfires

“The Hill is an American newspaper and digital media company based in Washington, D.C. that was founded in 1994. In 2020, it was the largest independent political news site in the United States.”


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hill_(newspaper)


----------



## WildAbtHorses

2022 — 46 round ups, 82,000 horses, $25M for helicopter, $425 for care

CBS Sunday Morning


----------



## WildAbtHorses

I found this interesting and enjoyable to watch. It's about the origins of the American Quarter Horse Association.

The American Quarter Horse is well known both as a race horse and for its performance in rodeos, horse shows and as a working ranch horse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Quarter_Horse

*1941 Quarter Horse Film narrated by BF Yeates from Texas A&M*


----------



## stallionsavers

Twenty thousand wild horses and burros are slated for round-up this


> year which is the estimated number of how many are left.
> 80% are mares to be sterilized with Gonacon, a very toxic pesticide
> which renders most mares sterilized forever contrary to BLM
> misinformation campaign.. Although the Wild Free Roaming Horse and
> Burro Act of 1971 (WFRHB Act ) allows for sterilization it is only as
> a drastic last resort to be used after determining that wild horses
> and burros have reached unsustainable proportions which BLM does not
> even begin to prove out to the Interior committee that doles out money
> for their management practices .
> The Heber herd in Arizona is a classic example which BLM and the US
> Forest service seems to want to overlook it.
> If it were not for The International Society for the protection of
> Mustangs and burros lawsuit back in 2006 that forbade removal of this
> Herd we would not even have proof that wild horses self-regulate.
> BLM predicted if they didn’t remove them their population would
> explode from 400 to 4,500 by the year 2021. Well, their population
> numbers as of 2021 was estimated to be 450 .
> This should be a case study for all our wild horses and burros which
> BLM and the US Forest Service refuse to do so and instead continue to
> round them up exaggerating their numbers as an excuse to do so.
> For proof of the blatant corruption of BLM regarding our wild horses
> please refer to the skonica download below.
> It is a letter from former Congressman Sam Farr asking for prosecution
> of BLM for sending 1700 wild horses to slaughter illegally.
> Nothing was done to stop this criminal taking of our wild ones.
> Our wild horses are still unaccounted for , BLMs own numbers do not
> even match their own botched up records according to the peer reviewed
> White Papers https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwildhorsefreedomfederation.org%2Fwhite-paper%2F&amp;data=05%7C01%7Cuslar%40monterey.org%7Cd1c5d8fca7634675445a08da7bcb65e9%7C2d28750aec9c4719bd9af1d62aed9f0c%7C0%7C0%7C637958412295893918%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=tlwOEPZ2Dt%2BMSeXeFKLUwDsoRVWJBqraKW7VwjKxXls%3D&amp;reserved=0
> This kind of corruption is what is destroying our wild horses and
> burros to extinction and ' the way forward' asking the Interior
> Committee for millions to sterilize wild horses in the 2023 budget is
> just another step towards their extinction process.


ACTION NEEDED
Contact the Interior Chair Pingree
*Committee Contact Information*
2007 Rayburn House Office Building
(202) 225-3081
Let them know that you do not want your tax dollars spent on sterilizing wild horses or burro's.
Thank you for taking time out to save what remains of our wild ones.


*MOD NOTE
Neither the Horse Forum, its moderators, nor its administrators are responsible for the accuracy of any information posted here nor is this to be seen as an endorsement for the views presented by the OP. This post is a copy of [ Stop wild horse sterilization ] that thread which will remain closed to discussion. It has been placed into this ongoing thread for those that wish to comment on the validity of the information presented or express their opinions.*


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## WildAbtHorses

^ This situation is heartbreaking, and I cannot believe Americans have not been able to resolve this issue humanely. What about the thousands of horses already being held in facilities? Why isn't there dedicated and continuous online live reporting on these facilities and these animals? We need solutions! Match up incarcerated and lost souls with trapped/penned wild horses? The US prison population in 2022 is *~2.1 million*.

"Without intervention, wild horses and burros will be gone forever for future generations of America." - 2017 Wild Horse Freedom Federation's (WHFF) white paper (referenced and link above).

Hopefully, future generations will enjoy pristine open public lands and a wide array of healthy native free-roaming species. I am not only worried about the wild horses.

May 2021, the New York Times reported, "Records show that some people who the government pays $1,000 a head to give legally protected mustangs "good homes" are sending the horses to auction once they get the money."


The Department of the Interior (DOI) manages public lands and minerals, national parks, and wildlife refuges and upholds Federal trust responsibilities to Indian tribes and Native Alaskans. Additionally, the Interior is responsible for endangered species conservation and other environmental conservation efforts.

The Bureau of Land Management's (BLM) mission is to sustain public lands' health, diversity, and productivity for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations.

GonaCon is an immunocontraceptive vaccine that was developed and is used by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS), and Wildlife Services (WS) in the management of certain wildlife and feral vertebrate animal populations.


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## Knave

It’s not so easy as that. Forcing inmates to work a horse is not the best idea. Those who do work the horses apply for the program, and there are requirements they must meet.

I think maybe you imagine these horses are all easy to work with with a little education. Although I will agree they can be easy for those like myself, who have a lot of experience, and it can be done by those very dedicated without a lot of experience, it is a dangerous activity by nature. Without supervision, the majority of people starting a colt the first time are in over their head and end up hurt.

For prisoners to be able to start horses, they need considerable supervision and education by someone who knows what they are doing. Imagine trying to make the whole prison population do such a thing. I think you would limit the number of prisoners needing fed, and ruin a lot of horses.

I appreciate the prison program, and I think it is an excellent thing. Yet, the horse I got from there needed a lot of work backtracking to end up where he should have been. The two months put into him took six months to undo. That’s in no way saying I don’t think the program is great, or that I don’t believe some better horsemen get involved. Yet, it works how it is currently, and is no way the solution for all of the horses.

Constant live streaming is another bad idea in my opinion. People without knowledge would create many problems, and the horses cost an inordinate amount as it is.

People claiming they should be left on the mountain in tact to die of starvation are also not seeing the repercussions of that decision. They believe the herds would limit their own numbers and then thrive, but they would damage the land for everything including themselves and die off anyways. The build back of the land would take forever and never be the same. Then we also would have nothing to eat.

I think the best solution would be slaughtering the animals until they are at a maintainable number. Take that meat and feed hungry people. Then they become an asset and not a drain.


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## bsms

@Knave, it is a bit like putting prisoners into the kitchen of a gourmet restaurant and hoping the customers don't notice anything odd...

I have vastly more experience around horses than the average inmate, but I wouldn't want to try taking on an adult mustang to train! I could do it with a lot of supervision, but the results would be a bit like what would happen if you asked me to cook "Ochazuke with ocean trout and nori" - which I cannot pronounce or even know what it is, let alone cook! Although apparently it looks like this:






Now I'm off to go cook some frozen hamburger patties in my George Foreman grill.... 🤣


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## boots

"The Bureau of Land Management's (BLM) mission is to sustain public lands' health, diversity, and productivity for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations."

This simple statement causes a lot of problems for the BLM and every American.

The BLM had to balance everyone's wish list. Scientists and researchers. Hunters. Hikers. Horse lovers. Those who feel the needs of amphibians and birds who depend on riparian areas are ignored in favor of deer, elk, horses. Those who would like the return of mostly bison.

And, I do hate to say, "pristine" only happens in rare years. Mother Nature doesn't always make the land pretty. Out west, most years the weather is hard on the vegetation and every thing that tries to live on it. Whether it walks, crawls, flies, or has roots.

I pray for balance. In everything.


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## WildAbtHorses

^ No forcing on humans or equines --just individuals (prisoners and troubled youth) interested, dedicated, and wanting to help gentle the horses. I would be happy if we could use prison grounds to house some of the captured horses and allow the inmates to gentle them for grooming. Leave the training to folks who have the experience and know-how. I agree, an asset, not a drain.

I, too, pray for balance in everything.

I'm still chuckling at the cooking analogy! Thank you.

I made Jamie Oliver's "Proper Chicken Pie" it was so tasty but didn't look anything like his -and now I'm hooked on "scrumpy" hard cider.


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## WildAbtHorses

Barrel Racing - do the horses enjoy it?
It looks fun, and I think a "tamed" wild horse would be excellent at it.

An American Appendix Horse - new to me (one of the F.Taylor videos talks about them). They are a cross between Qtr Horse & Thoroughbred. F.Taylor and Elisa Wallace have videos on Thoroughbred horses and their makeovers. Rescuing Thoroughbreds from kill pens. Sometimes the horse world shatters my heart into so many pieces.

Suggestion: Turn sound off.


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## WildAbtHorses

I haven't watched -yet. I don't think I've already watched it. 
It is on Amazon Prime $6 or PBS Doc Sub $4/month.
I just rewatched Amazon Prime 2016 *Harry & Snowman*, which I love!!!

PBS’ Nature Season Forty: 2021-22 - Episode 10 American Horses.
Follow the history of the uniquely American horse breeds that helped shape a nation.
American Horses ~ About | Nature | PBS

American Horses - NATURE PBS - Official Trailer


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## boots

I love the story of "Harry and Snowman."


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## WildAbtHorses

Vermont Law and Graduate School — files law suit to protect wild horses in Southern Oregon. Sat, 10/08/2022





Vermont Law files suit to protect wild horses in Southern Oregon | Vermont Business Magazine







vermontbiz.com





Vermont Business Magazine Vermont Law and Graduate School’s Environmental Advocacy Clinic filed a federal lawsuit against the US Bureau of Land Management, on behalf of its client Wild Horse Fire Brigade (WHFB), on Wednesday, October 5. The lawsuit seeks a halt to the roundup of wild horses from private property within and adjacent to the Pokegama Herd Management Area in southern Oregon. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) failed to follow the law and its own guidance before initiating the roundup.

The law suit seeks to prevent the loss of wild horses and to compel BLM to conduct legally required studies regarding the horses.


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## WildAbtHorses

My new favorite horse YouTube Channel. I enjoyed the videos on Milo!

These are two wild horses from Nevada --now living in British Columbia, Canada. Guelph University's Equine Science certificate and degree sounds very interesting.

DAY 1 With My New Wild Mustang Fillies (6,775 views Oct 4, 2022):
(DAY 0 was driving down, picking up the horses, and back home. Driving)


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## Linoone

Remember everybody, the BLM's next online adoption event runs through October 24-31 and starts and ends at 4:00 pm Mountain Time. 






Wild Horse and Burro Online Corral







wildhorsesonline.blm.gov


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## Linoone

WildAbtHorses said:


> Vermont Business Magazine Vermont Law and Graduate School’s Environmental Advocacy Clinic filed a federal lawsuit against the US Bureau of Land Management, on behalf of its client Wild Horse Fire Brigade (WHFB), on Wednesday, October 5. The lawsuit seeks a halt to the roundup of wild horses from private property within and adjacent to the Pokegama Herd Management Area in southern Oregon.


As interested as I am in the Wild Horse Fire Brigade (WHFB) and what it's plans could bring to the table, the fact that they choose _this _specific gathering was incredibly poor planning on their part. 

Legally, the BLM *has *to remove free-roaming horses and burros if they receive complaints from landowners about the animals trespassing onto private property. The BLM can and _has _been taken to court by landowners for refusing to remove problem animals in a timely matter, several times at that. In each case, the BLM has been found to be at fault for not upholding their end of the deal and ordered to remove the animals as soon as possible. 

The Pokegama round-up has *already *been postponed multiple times -Due to factors outside of the BLM's control- so this lawsuit is just rubbing salt into an already sore wound IMHO. It's not going to go anywhere, because the law is crystal clear in this instance. 

The Pokegama herd has been trespassing on private land owned by a major timber company for years. The herd is grossly over-populated, which is the reason why the landowners have finally asked the BLM to reduce numbers. The WHFB suing to prevent the herds remove will accomplish _*nothing *_in the long run and only serve to alienate members of the public from it's mission in the short-term.


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## WildAbtHorses

I think every American should read Elizabeth Letts' well-written, fascinating story about Harry & Snowman, and she provides so much rich historical information. The book will NOT disappoint. IMHO There should be an HBO MAX TV Series on Letts' book!


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## Linoone

@WildAbtHorses 

Eh, I got to read the first chapter of _The Eighty-Dollar Champion _and I wasn't impressed. 

Elizabeth Letts writing just read so... saccharine. It wasn't to my taste. And she seemed to be drawing an *awful lot *of assumptions about Harry, Snowman and the horse industry in general. 

I'm sure plenty of people enjoy the book and I was all set and excited to read it! But man, that writing style... I was literally waiting in line at my local bookstore to buy the book, so I decided to read as much as I could while I was waiting. 

I really want to impress that I *really wanted *to love the book, I had been eagerly awaiting it's release! 

But once I finished that first chapter, my literal first thought was "_Good lord, what soppy, overly-gooey writing. There's no way I'm going to be able to stomach an entire books' worth of this."_ By that point it was my turn at the check-up counter, so I gave the poor clerk an apologetic look, turned around and put the book back on the shelf where I had found it.


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## Knave

@Linoone I got about half way through. Maybe I would have enjoyed it more was it not for the audible narrator. You can say it was written overly soppy, but it was read by the most unanimated reader born! Lol. He was so dry and although the story is amazing, I was bored out of my mind. I ended up just researching the story and quitting the book.


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## WildAbtHorses

Oh, dear. Yes, overly sentimental and very sugary.

My bubble has burst. I've been abruptly thrown out of adolescence into reality. Ouch. Am I too naïve and "in love" with Harry & Snowman" to see the book's flaws? I'm heartbroken, but I still enjoyed the read and story and would enjoy an HBO Max TV series.

I would enjoy a horsey someone to provide me with a few redeeming aspects of it. Or am I all alone on this book?

What book(s) should I be reading?


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## Knave

You should read any book you like! I mean, art, like books, are made to be enjoyed by some, not all! If everyone was turned on by the same thing then life would be as uninteresting as that narrator! Lol

I enjoyed the story, just not the narration on audible. I didn’t want to actually purchase the book, but couldn’t listen to him any longer. Maybe he counter acted the sappy, because I never noticed sappy.

I love the story, and that it is true is amazing! What a cool thing!!

Now, what books I enjoy you probably wouldn’t. Some I only enjoy once, like Smokey the Cowhorse. I tried to read it to my girls when they were little, loved the beginning and forgot how traumatic it got! I don’t love sad stories about animals.


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## Linoone

Knave said:


> Smokey the Cowhorse





Knave said:


> I tried to read it to my girls when they were little, loved the beginning and forgot how traumatic it got! I don’t love sad stories about animals.


Yeah... _Smokey the Cowhorse _isn't really appropriate for young children. And I'm saying this as someone who read the book as a child! (Well a teenager anyway, but still I was only about thirteen at the time.)

Less because of the mistreatment of Smokey that occurs in the latter half of the book, though that in itself is hard to stomach. 

And more because of the bizarre *racist* rant that comes out of _nowhere _partway through the story!

Seriously, "Will James" (Which wasn't his real name by the way, it was Joseph Ernest Nephtali Dufault), just goes _on_ and _on _about how this horse-thief who steals Smokey is the most awful and evil person ever... and _*why *_is this guy so awful and evil? 

Because he's not _white. _He's mixed race, half Native American half Black. Yes, *that's *why he goes around stealing horses and treating them terribly while he has them. 

Smokey is heavily implied to _kill _this guy by the way.

And you know what _really _gets me? "Will James" was a livestock rustler himself! He even went to prison for it! Heck, the "real" Smokey was a stolen horse! He admits to as much in his "autobiography"! 

So apparently it's fine when _*he *_steals livestock, but it's an unforgivable crime when a mixed race man does it in one of his books? Baffling, utterly baffling.

Oh, the sequence with the horse-thief isn't the end of the racism by the way. Actually, instances of shockingly causal racism are present in _all _of "Will James's" books - But keeping to just _Smokey the Cowhorse, _late late into the book Smokey is sold to a man who slaughters horses to make chicken feed out of them. Guess what reason "Will James" assigns as to why this guy has such a business?

Yep! It's his race again! The man is heavily implied to be Latino. You know, another non-white race. Clint (The closest person Smokey has to an owner) witnesses this "evil" horse slaughterer mistreating Smokey and *nearly beats him to death in a fight! *

Worse still, the sheriff of the freakin' town they're in doesn't stop the fight, he just chuckles at Clint and goes "wink wink nudge nudge I didn't see anything". Does the sheriff condone this kind of behavior because the horse slaughterer was abusing Smokey in a public place? 

Nope! He just says to Clint that it's no big deal because the man "is just a hombre". Like, wow. 

So yeah... that's why I think _Smokey the Cowhorse_ isn't appropriate for young children. Not just because of the horrible things Smokey has to go through before he gets a happy ending, but because of the vile racism present throughout. No impressionable child should have to slough through that stupidity to get to the good story underneath. 

It's really such a shame, because "Will James" was a talented writer and _Smokey the Cowhorse _is truly a lovely example of Xenofiction. I adore how Smokey reads like an actual horse, not a human in a horse shaped body. "Will James" doesn't really anthropomorphize him, which is something I do appreciate. It's not a particularly sentimental story either, which I highly approve of.


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## Knave

It’s been so long since I’ve read it @Linoone. I don’t remember the racism, but when I remembered some of the things that happened to Smokey as I began reading it to the girls it made me sad.


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## COWCHICK77

I haven't read Smokey since I was a kid either and don't remember the racism. But of course times and sensitivities have changed dramatically and definitely since the book had been written. 
Admittedly, I do not have children, but if one chose to read Smokey to their kids, you could use those moments to teach your kids? I don't know... I'm not a parent.
Then there are a pile of other books he wrote that had some really neat short stories that might be more appropriate. It definitely was a real life glimpse into cowboy life back then and gave all of us wild eyed wanna be cowboy kids something to dream about instead of watching Heartland... 

While he might seem hypocritical cussing horse theives as a cattle theif himself, he didn't start drawing or writing until he had married my aunt Alice who encouraged him to do so. That was after his stint in prison.
I'm not excusing his behavior nor calling him a Saint, my aunt later divorced him obviously.


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## Knave

That is so cool @COWCHICK77! I loved the beginning of Smokey, when he’s starting him. It is so real and so spectacularly written to me! Yet, I’m too in love with Smokey for all the bad things that happen.


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## WildAbtHorses

What a fascinating and informative conversation about Will James and his writing!

Knave: “I don’t love sad stories about animals.” Me either. Smokey the Cowhorse real-life story sounds very heartbreaking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoky_the_Cowhorse

Linoone: “So yeah... that's why I think Smokey the Cowhorse isn't appropriate for young children. Not just because of the horrible things Smokey has to go through before *he gets a happy ending* but because of the vile racism present throughout. No impressionable child should have to slough through that stupidity to get to the good story underneath.” So true and thank goodness [Cowchick77] "times and sensitivities have changed dramatically." *It’s good to know Smokey has a happy ending.* Thank you.

I had to look up Xenofiction = A few works of Science Fiction and Fantasy (and even some realistic fiction) take the Point of View of normal animals, Intellectual Animals, ...

Cowchick77: “While he might seem hypocritical cussing horse thieves as a cattle thief himself, he didn't start drawing or writing until he had married my aunt Alice who encouraged him to do so. That was after his stint in prison.” He married your aunt!?

I’ve added “Smoky the Cowhorse” by Will James and “The Development of Modern Riding” by VS Littauer to my reading list! And “Black Beauty” by Anna Sewell “While forthrightly teaching animal welfare, it also teaches how to treat people with kindness, sympathy, and respect.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Beauty -Again, thank YOU!


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## COWCHICK77

WildAbtHorses said:


> He married your aunt!?


Yes, he was. Would of been my great, great aunt. Will James was good friends with my uncles. They cowboyed together and rode bucking horses. He had met my aunt when he had been bucked down on a set of railroad tracks. He had stayed at the family place while he healed up. At that time my aunt was only 16 years old but soon after married.


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## WildAbtHorses

The Wyoming Honor Farm, located one mile north of Riverton, Wyoming, is classified as a minimum custody facility and is part of the Wyoming Department of Corrections. The BLM and the Honor Farm have worked cooperatively since 1988 to train and adopt wild horses gathered primarily from Wyoming's public lands.

60 Minutes last night:








The Wyoming Honor Farm: A state prison rehabilitating inmates by training wild horses | 60 Minutes


A program designed to rein in the number of wild horses on federal land is giving prisoners a chance to learn patience and responsibility. Sharyn Alfonsi reports from Wyoming.



www.cbsnews.com













WDOC


Wyoming Department of Corrections




corrections.wyo.gov













Programs: Wild Horse and Burro: Adoptions and Sales: Adoption Centers: Wyoming Honor Farm | Bureau of Land Management







www.blm.gov


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## WildAbtHorses

Here are some of the topics of the film festivals documentaries: An 8-year-old with Down Syndrome learns to love and ride horses, inner-city workers find time to enjoy a country air, Extreme Mustang Makeover bareback and bridle-less, three old men ride the Old Spanish Trail, the longest annual charity horseback ride on the planet, therapy horses ease human suffering during times of natural emergencies, violence, traumatic events, and loss, and the training, and making of equine theater stars and the creation of the magic that is a live equine theater production, etc.

Equus Film Festival
EQUUS Film & Arts Fest

Equus International Film Festival
Trailers


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## WildAbtHorses

I love donkeys!

Oscar's Place a 75-acre California ranch dedicated to donkeys:





Donkey & three-year-old human brother:


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## boots

The Wyoming Honor Farm and it's blm horse program is sometimes referred to as "Wyoming's Death Row" by some of the inmates in Wyoming prisons. 

No horse/country background? Some are really afraid. 😆

(I've done contact work for the prison system in WYO)


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## Knave

Hahahahahaha @boots! Could you imagine it though? Cashman came from the prison program nearest to me. He was a 2-yr-old, but even off the mountain, this horse was already 15.3 and 1250! He was a big boy.

There was a lot I had to fix with him. I had to realize that you are taking a person who has no experience and asking them to do something those of us with a ton of experience can still struggle a lot with at times!

Cash’s issues I blamed on the start he got, but how much of a jerk was naturally in him anyways? He’s a gentle giant now, at 16.3 and 1485. It took about 6 months to get that 2 months of training out of him. Yet, he still has this little edge in his temperament. Imagine starting him, straight off the range, with an edge to his temper, as a prisoner who had once trained some guard type dogs (this is what he said. I assume in prison speak this would be a certain type of dog.). I never could put him in a round corral. He would run right at me, ears pinned and intense. I figured they took pressure off at the “join up.” Bad plan. Lol

Even the biggest and strongest prisoner would be humbled by a horse. I like the idea. I can see where it takes some work to fix the horse. Yet, isn’t the human worth a lot too? Maybe God works it all out to where the right horse meets the right prisoner. I figure he must. I know where we went there was no empathy laid out to the prisoners.


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## WildAbtHorses

"The BLM and the _Honor Farm_ have worked cooperatively since 1988 to train and adopt wild _horses_ gathered primarily from _Wyoming's_ public lands. It has a gas chamber for its _death row inmates." --How sad._

Yes, I imagine most humans, when face-to-face with a 1,400-pound wild horse, would be intimidated, humbled, and overwhelmed by the daunting task of gentling the animal. Is matching a horse to its human counterpart similar to the adage, "you don't always get the dog you want, but you get the dog you need."

I believe horses and teens make a perfect match. Would the match-ups improve both lives? I wish the United States had a program that required every American teenager to take care of horses in some capacity --the horses that are held against their will in captivity, from feeding to befriending and grooming. A mandatory program that required every teen to spend several weeks around BLM horses. In the long run, it may reduce adult incarcerations. IMHO


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## boots

Since you brought it up... the last execution in Wyoming was in 1992. No one is currently on death row. 

The gas chamber is in Rawlins.not Riverton.


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