# Can someone please tell me about European vs American style



## horsecv

Hi- so I'm at a barn where there are two factions of riding, though all of it is english. 

On one side are the American trainers and the other side are the European trainers. Both teach english style riding and are jumpers. But they have different teaching styles and philosophies and for the most part stick to themselves. My question is, is there a different philosophy, methodology or style of riding between the europeans and the americans?

I know that Hunters doesn't exist in Europe but is there more to the story?

Here is a European event (Paris)






Here is American (Florida)






Are Europeans more about emphasis on speed and getting through the course versus Americans are more about control of the horse?


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## Clava

You wont win without control, speed will not do it alone and you wont win without speed on a timed event - so both are necessary , concentrating on one alone wont win.


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## equitate

The first IS a speed challenge (and a good way to end up with a very tense/flat horse if the rider is not careful).


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## littlebird

Since no one's yet gotten to what seems to me to be the heart of your question. I'll take a crack at it. 

From what I understand of it, there IS a difference in style. However slight. In jumping, Americans have been said to have started a trend of using a very forward pose over jumps which has led to a rash of jumping ahead.

As I am not an expert on this topic, if you really want to know more I suggest you read your brains out. Books on style, methodology, riding philosophy, and history are great resources. (Sometimes it feels like riding is one of the only hobbies left where reading a book is the only way to gain deeper information on the topic).


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## horsecv

At my barn the Europeans have a very go with the flow style of teaching. They say things like "you need more leg" and "get the lead". The Americans are super technical and get really really detailed like " the hock is loose heading into the quarter line, bend to the outside at the buckle". To be honest sometimes I don't even understand what the Americans are saying.

I currently ride with the Europeans and both have really good riders- though the euro riders look more stylish to me.

Is there any truth to any of this or am I just making all of this up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

Can a person make a judgement based in the experience of just one barn?


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## jaydee

As far as show jumping goes there's very little difference - I've watched Beezie Madden ride alongside European riders and the style is much the same. 
In Europe you're less likely to see someone riding in 2 point the entire time they're in the ring and the crest release is a US thing in origin - but it is drifting into UK teaching.
European riders mostly all start out learning to ride in a basic low level dressage seat - that does not mean long stirrups and sitting trot - it means learning how to ride a horse on the bit and in a collected frame for the best control - something that's very important whether you're in a speed class or a Puissance or just a very big tight course with a lot of twists and turns.
British riders have no understanding at all of the US hunter classes - on the flat or over fences because it bears no resemblance at all to our hunter classes or actual hunting
A lot of US students are going to the UK to do the BHS exam courses so there's going to be an influence that will over time integrate the styles over time


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## Clava

horsecv said:


> At my barn the Europeans have a very go with the flow style of teaching. They say things like "you need more leg" and "get the lead". The Americans are super technical and get really really detailed like " the hock is loose heading into the quarter line, bend to the outside at the buckle". To be honest sometimes I don't even understand what the Americans are saying.
> 
> I currently ride with the Europeans and both have really good riders- though the euro riders look more stylish to me.
> 
> Is there any truth to any of this or am I just making all of this up?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 How many instructors do you have? Could it be that the two sectors are just being influenced by just a few opinionated people and this gives the appearance of a crystallisation of styles.


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## Altalefty

Well at least everyone agrees that the Canadian style is better than the European or American version. Can you guess what country I live in? Seriously though, a person at work went off on a rant about this, and was very passionate and upset about this topic. She is from Europe and finally found a spot to ride here! As everyone in North America knows knows absolutely nothing about English riding, and thank goodnes someone from Europe finally moved to the area and opened an arena, now she can ride with people that aren't totally inept, and can associate with someone up at her level of riding. I know basically nothing of English riding, but did learn after this person's rant that there is some people that think there is a big difference between here and overseas.


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## plomme

Your co-worker sounds awful, but her comments are probably at least a bit related to things that are true about riding culture in North America vs. Europe (particularly Northern and Western Europe) in a very general sense. If you take a place where instructors are qualified and regulated, where there's a huge supply of quality horses and those quality horses are more accessible to people, where a solid understanding of dressage is assumed to be the basis for all riding, where you can go to a show literally every weekend of the season for not very much money, where riding in general is more accessible, etc. then it will probably produce better riders *in general*. Obviously there are amazing, talented, wonderful riders in both Europe and North America. But there is a culture of riding in many European countries for which there is no equivalent in North America, which sucks. So if you take the average 15 year old riding school student in the US or Canada and compare her to the average 15 year old riding school student in Germany, yes, you probably will see a big difference.

And I say that as someone who learned how to ride mostly in the US and occasionally went to Europe and saw how vastly different it was and how much my own education came up short! 

But anyway, I know nothing about jumpers


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## bsms

"_...where a solid understanding of dressage is assumed to be the basis for all riding...where riding in general is more accessible...But there is a culture of riding in many European countries for which there is no equivalent in North America.._."

During the 3 1/2 years I lived north of Oxford, I never saw anyone ride except for a polo match I went to see. I can't speak to parts of the USA, but there are a lot of folks who ride or have ridden in Arizona.

One difference that may exist is that in Europe, folks may believe "_a solid understanding of dressage is assumed to be the basis for all riding_", which large parts of America reject - as do I. That assumption would also be a surprise to many of the old time advocates of a forward seat. As Littauer wrote:










And:










As for jumping: George Morris wrote a book called "The American Jumping Style". It might offer insight on the differences. It has been a while since I read it and I don't jump, so I'll leave it as a consideration.

The American Jumping Style (Doubleday Equestrian Library): George H. Morris: 9780385410823: Amazon.com: Books

I'm not knocking dressage, but its influence in Europe might account for some of the differences between European and American approaches to riding.


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## jaydee

bsms said:


> "_...where a solid understanding of dressage is assumed to be the basis for all riding...where riding in general is more accessible...But there is a culture of riding in many European countries for which there is no equivalent in North America.._."
> 
> During the 3 1/2 years I lived north of Oxford, I never saw anyone ride except for a polo match I went to see. I can't speak to parts of the USA, but there are a lot of folks who ride or have ridden in Arizona.
> .


Then you really didn't get out that much!!!
Just at a quick glance (so I might have missed some) Oxfordshire alone has 8 Riding Clubs, 3 branches of the Pony Club, 8 Foxhunts, 42 Riding Schools, 28 Trainers (listed on just one site), 20 Livery (Boarding Yards) listed on just one site, and below is a link to one of the sites where show/event/clinic organisers advertise - there are many others besides
Horse Events In Oxfordshire & Horse Shows In Oxfordshire
Plus Oxfordshire is only about 1006 sq miles in size and is surrounded by easily accessible other counties that are also holding shows each weekend 

Oh - and we have been successfully show jumping at a pretty consistent level over there for quite some time now - despite the fact that most European showjumpers also use basic dressage riding as the foundation for everything else they do - they have mastered the forward seat over fences!!!


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## horsecv

The responses in this thread are awesome!


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## frlsgirl

I used to ride in Germany back in the 80s and now I ride in Oklahoma. Some differences that I noticed:

I was taught to ride with a really long leg (for Dressage), whereas here they keep the stirrups a lot shorter. 

Lessons in Germany included a mix of flat work and jumping or at least cavaletti work. Where as here you have to specify if you want a Dressage lesson, a H/J lesson, a jumping lesson etc. 

I was very confused about the whole Hunter/Jumper thing when I first moved here in the 90s, because in Germany it's about time and how many jumps you knock down. There isn't or wasn't a jumping discipline where you are judged on style because the assumption is that by the time you are jumping you can already ride well/didn't need to worry about your position anymore.

Germans are a little stricter when it comes to your position/ability to ride. Everyone starts out on the lunge line and you very slowly progress to riding in a small group. Here in Oklahoma, they put you on a QH, smack it on the butt, and off you go


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## bsms

I didn't say no one in Oxfordshire rides, but I was correct in what I said: in 3.5 years at RAF Upper Heyford, while driving and jogging and hiking around the area, I never once saw someone on a horse. I only saw it at a polo match.

This is unlike southern Arizona, where I sometimes almost literally run into people riding horses while I'm out jogging. I sometimes see someone riding past my house. Two people in the local area have carts they drive by from time to time.

The small church I go to, about 40 members, has a guy about 15 years older than me who still rides, 3 guys who were cowboys in their youth, and a woman (about 70, I'd guess) with a scar on her arm from when a horse flipped on her as a teen. The pastor's daughter has come over to ride with us. 

I'm not buying the idea that Oxford has a 'culture of riding', while southern Arizona does not. It is, however, a different culture of riding. Dressage is NOT big here, nor is jumping or English saddles or taking lots of lessons. There is a small arena near by that sometimes holds games and barrel racing, but actual horse shows in THIS part of Arizona would not be common. To the north, Scottsdale has a very different culture of riding, with far more shows, breeding, etc. I'd bet Maricopa County has a lot more English riders than Pima County, although both are probably primarily trail riding areas.

The only rider in the local area I know who has had a dressage lesson has only had a few as a way to expand her horizons...and since her description of a half-halt differs greatly from what I've read, I'm not sure her horizon was expanded in the right direction, so to speak.

I know VS Littauer and others who taught a forward seat in the US did so while rejecting dressage training completely, at least for inexperienced riders. Littauer's program for learning riding included jumping 2.5-3 feet in 20 rides, and preferably in 15 (see "Common Sense Horsemanship").

I don't jump, but it seems reasonable to me that if an influential riding instructor in America expected new students to jump up to 3 feet in 20 lessons, and to do so with slack reins, then his approach might well lead to differences in how the horse is ridden. He argued, for example, that putting a horse 'on the bit' was only for the most advanced students and to be avoided before then - which is probably different than how it is taught in Oxford.

I have no interest in arguing superiority of one approach over the other. If folks are out riding, having fun and are not abusing their horses, then why should I care about their style? However, an heir of Littauer would probably teach riding differently than someone steeped in a dressage tradition!


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## plomme

This isn't really a personal opinion so much as a topic that is widely discussed over and over and over against amongst people looking to improve the state of North American dressage and jumping (and, to a lesser extent, eventing). There's a reason Europeans are disproportionately represented in the medals and it's not because they are innately more talented. It's because there is training, breeding, showing, and funding infrastructure there that simply does not exist in North America and it is accessible to far more people both due to prevalence and economics. And expectations are different in terms of expertise. No one is saying this as an insult, they say this in hopes of creating more opportunities for North Americans at all levels of the sport.

So, yes, it is very reasonable that someone coming from some European countries would have a hard time finding a comparable lesson or training situation. Obviously you shouldn't be a jerk about it, but it's a very real thing.


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## Zexious

When it comes to "Jumping" (Stadium jumping) I don't really buy there is much of a difference. The rest is not difference between countries or regions, but differences in discipline.


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## jaydee

With people like George Morris pushing the idea that dressage exercises are good for show jumpers teaching in the US is becoming more like Europe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNUXTt-8vmk
There are some amazing barns and competition sites here too so there is a ton of money going into the sport - but its such a huge country that you have to travel a lot further to get to shows
The Hunter/Jumper classes are probably where the biggest difference in 'English riding is seen because they don't exist in the UK - or in any other parts of Europe that I know of


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## StephiNDunc

I've always been taught basic dressage is the foundation of all riding. Therefore I school in a consistent outline (on the bit) both out hacking and when I am schooling. All my horses hunt through winter in the UK and the hunter/ hunt seat eq has always confused me cause if a hunter jumper rode with me on the hunt field they'd get a shock as we plough through deep mud gallop under trees and provided you stay on no one cares what you look like! My jump position is not stylish but I don't catch my horse in the mouth and I don't fall off so I think I'm doing good!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

They might also be shocked by some of the leg positions seen in the ring at high level competitions on many of our top UK, well respected show hunter riders - but they get results!!!


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## bsms

One of the things Littauer pointed out was that at top levels of competition, you had superb athletes riding superb athletes, who practiced it for long hours, and who had figured out what worked for them and their horse. He also pointed out that gripping with the knee, for example, works very well for some horses with some riders in some situations but caused problems in other situations. Thus he believed that recreational riders should not learn position by watching top riders at high levels of competition, but use a position that works with a reasonable margin of safety for most recreational riders on most recreational horses.

It is interesting to see the European riders extolling their approach as superior, so I assume that means the answer to the OP's question is that yes, there is a difference between how Americans and Europeans ride - since, after all, if the Europeans believe their approach is better, then there must be a difference between the two.

My suspicion, based on how competitive people behave in pursuing their sports, is that Americans do what gives them the best results in America, and Europeans do what gives them the best results in Europe. I would also bet that Littauer was right - that top competitors will do what they need to win, and that the average rider may be ill served by trying to imitate them while lacking their ability, training, and riding opportunities.


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## updownrider

bsms said:


> I know VS Littauer and others who taught a forward seat in the US did so while rejecting dressage training completely, at least for inexperienced riders.


I've long suspected your confusion about what classical dressage and forward seat riding really are, and your post above confirms my suspicion. Littauer and others (Chamberlin, Caprilli, Santini, Wright, Morris, Cronin) did not "reject dressage training completely", as they absolutely used their dressage training to develop, teach and write about forward riding. Caprilli was more in favor of forward rather than collection, but dressage is not only about collection. 

You might want to read Paul D. Cronin's _Schooling and Riding the Sport Horse_ for a better understanding of the forward seat.


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## updownrider

bsms said:


> It is interesting to see the European riders extolling their approach as superior, so I assume that means the answer to the OP's question is that yes, there is a difference between how Americans and Europeans ride - since, after all, if the Europeans believe their approach is better, then there must be a difference between the two.


The show jumping world is so International now that if you sat and watched a Grand Prix (note: I often link live streaming broadcasts in the English riding section on this forum) you would not be able to tell what country or continent the riders are from. There are American riders that are based in Europe working with European trainers, American riders living in Europe training riders in the Middle East, Middle East riders living in Europe training with European trainers, European riders training with Americans in the US or Canada, Canadian riders training in Europe, etc., etc.


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## jaydee

^^^^^Exactly.
The top riders in showjumping, dressage and eventing are all competing on the same 'playing fields', over the same courses and with the same judges - and have been for a long time now


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> I've long suspected your confusion about what classical dressage and forward seat riding really are, and your post above confirms my suspicion. Littauer and others (Chamberlin, Caprilli, Santini, Wright, Morris, Cronin) did not "reject dressage training completely", as they absolutely used their dressage training to develop, teach and write about forward riding... .


Actually, you are wrong. It would be impossible to read Littauer or Chamberlin and conclude they believed dressage training was particularly useful as a base for anything. They specifically and explicitly rejected it.



















Those are extracts that I pulled some time ago, but give some idea. The fact that he argued that putting a horse on the bit should be reserved for advanced riders (or at least intermediate) is evidence that he did not build his approach on dressage. 

That does not mean there are no common points between what a forward seat rider, a western rider, and a dressage rider might do in training a horse. Circles - round ones - are good training for a horse, as many barrel racers know. So if someone wants to define 'teach a horse to turn balanced under a rider' as 'dressage', then barrel racers and trail riders use 'dressage'. But since they normally do it without ever reading a dressage book or receiving any dressage training, maybe it is more accurate to say that there are things all riders do, and dressage builds on that basis.

Ultimately, dressage reflects it roots as a style of riding created during the Renaissance for wealthy people riding indoors. One cannot separate dressage from its desire for the horse to shift its balance aft, under the rider, instead of the rider shifting his balance forward on top of the horse. That idea - that a horse is balanced when his weight is 50:50 front:rear - is the fundamental theorem of dressage. That is its underpinnings - what Littauer referred to as center balanced.

But while every rider will need a horse to sometimes, for short periods, shift its balance to the rear, a great many of us can go our lives without ever desiring to do so on a sustained basis.

Western riders, rejecting the idea of riding a horse 'on the bit' with constant contact, might well approach learning a forward seat and jumping differently than someone who comes from a dressage background. That would be a different culture resulting in a different approach to training.

It is impossible to read Chamberlin or Littauer and conclude they believed dressage training was the base for learning a forward seat. As I pointed out, Littauer expected his student to be jumping 3 foot fences in 20 lessons, so there wasn't a lot of room for lunge line lessons and grounding in dressage prior to learning the forward seat. More importantly, the theory is all wrong - the balance is completely different.

It is entirely possible to reject Littauer's ideas. Many did while he was alive, too. But one cannot claim he believed dressage was in any way needed before learning a forward seat, or in any way superior to learning a forward seat for riding. That would requiring ignoring almost everything he wrote.


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## jaydee

There's no way a modern day show jumper would get around the big technical courses they have to face these days if they tried to adopt the method he suggests
Things have progressed a lot in the field of competition since these guys were writing their books. A jumping horse has to know when to extend, when to collect, when to slow down, when to speed up, when to shorten or lengthen a stride, when to change leads - basic dressage is not about passage and piaffe - its about having the ability to control a horse when you need too and it being ready to listen and obey the instant it's asked. 
Honestly if a rider isn't capable of doing this stuff then they aren't ready to be jumping real obstacles - there's more too it than just 'getting over' and not falling off.


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## updownrider

bsms - Your reading comprehension is off, I said they did not "reject dressage training completely", something *you* said. 

You started in horses about 6 years ago, took a few lessons, read some books, and *you don't jump*. I have no idea why you are debating jumping with me since I have been a student of the sport for more than 50 years. I have trained with masters of the sport, some of the ones you read and quote out of context. I would never debate Australian stock saddles and tell you that you are wrong since I do not have the knowledge that you do, so I do not know why you debate this issue with me. 

---------------

Adding on, after reading what you posted, no where does it say dressage was "specifically and explicitly rejected". Again, my suspicion of your lack of understanding of what dressage is was confirmed. As I said in a previous post, read Cronin. You might learn something.


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## bsms

I am not trying to suggest Littauer's methods are going to be used by top riders in showjumping today. One of the things I like about Littauer is that he taught a graduated approach, so that a recreational rider getting 1-2 lessons a week would be taught differently than an advanced rider dedicated to the sport.

I believe Littauer was an early advocate of the crest release, and IIRC his thought was that it was a good beginner practice, but unsuitable beyond the beginner level.

Another thing I like about Littauer is that he taught 'forward riding' - not hunter seat equitation, not show jumping, etc. He wrote at length about WHY he liked certain ways of riding, and what the advantages and disadvantages were to several ways of riding.

His writing was broad enough that he is my favorite author on riding, even though I do not jump. Jumping and the Sonoran Desert do not go well together. One doesn't gallop cross country in the Sonoran Desert. Even a human walking on foot has a tough time walking cross country here - been there, made the 1-2 mile detours and stepped on half-buried cactus that went thru my shoes.

But what Littauer wrote about balance and the horse, and the horse's emotions and energy levels, and being gentle on the back and mouth and thinking about how to be so, why doing X might be good in one situation and bad in another - all that can carry over to an old guy who takes up riding at 50, and can apply to riding in an Australian saddle and even to a western saddle.

Getting back to the point of this thread: Most people who learn jumping are never going to compete at the top levels. Most of those learning in the US will never ride in Europe. Most will never go over a 6' oxer. Many don't own a horse. Many will ride 1-2 lesson/week, and that is all the experience their situation allows. Those are the students Littauer tended to focus on, and his ideas may well affect how those students are taught in the US. His idea that those students should be taught differently than someone with a shot at going to the Olympics may affect the approach used by many American jump instructors.

My daughter took a year of lessons from a lady with a barrel racing background. At the start, one of her goals was to someday compete locally in barrel racing. However, the lady regularly asked her what she wanted out of riding and where she wanted to go as a rider. When her answer became "Trail ride on Trooper because I like being with him", she gave her a few more months of lessons and turned her loose.

I would hope both European and American jump instructors would do something similar. Good riding instruction should include what the student's goals are, what they can realistically achieve, their horse (if they own one), etc. Ideally, the instructor should explain the trade-offs at various forks in the road, so the rider can someday choose to go back and take a different route with understanding.


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## ponyboy

I always thought that American vs. European jumping style meant crest release vs. auto release. Nothing to do with dressage at all.

Also, where I live most barns still offer all-round English lessons. It's not H/J vs. dressage. The barns who specialize in one discipline don't usually offer lessons for beginners.


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## bsms

updownrider said:


> bsms - Your reading comprehension is off, I said they did not "reject dressage training completely", something *you* said.
> 
> You started in horses about 6 years ago, took a few lessons, read some books, and *you don't jump*. I have no idea why you are debating jumping with me since I have been a student of the sport for more than 50 years. I have trained with masters of the sport, some of the ones you read and quote out of context.... Again, my suspicion of your lack of understanding of what dressage is was confirmed. As I said in a previous post, read Cronin. You might learn something.


I'm not debating jumping technique. We are discussing riding traditions and how they might affect the approach used by an instructor.

Littauer and Chamberlin were both excruciatingly clear in their writings that while dressage is not bad, it is not a good base for forward riding. What they wrote is not something rational people can debate. Anyone who wants can read their writings and see for themselves, and I've recommended both enough times on this forum with links to help others do so. I am not quoting them out of context. Their writing was extremely clear and extensive.

If you think dressage is the base that forward riding is built on, then perhaps you don't understand dressage...or forward riding. If you think forward riding is just about jumping, you don't understand what Littauer and Chamberlin wrote. Nor does western riding, at least Texas style, build on dressage. The balance and motion is all wrong.

Historically, folks have ridden horses world-wide for thousands of years, and done so without building on dressage. Please buy another book of Littauer's:

The Development of Modern Riding, available on Amazon for a penny plus shipping:

The Development of Modern Riding: Vladimir S. Littauer: 9780876058978: Amazon.com: Books

One can study the history of riding without having spent the last 3000 years riding - or 50.


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## updownrider

bsms said:


> Getting back to the point of this thread: Most people who learn jumping are never going to compete at the top levels. Most of those learning in the US will never ride in Europe. Most will never go over a 6' oxer. Many don't own a horse. Many will ride 1-2 lesson/week, and that is all the experience their situation allows. Those are the students Littauer tended to focus on, and his ideas may well affect how those students are taught in the US. His idea that those students should be taught differently than someone with a shot at going to the Olympics may affect the approach used by many American jump instructors.
> 
> My daughter took a year of lessons from a lady with a barrel racing background. At the start, one of her goals was to someday compete locally in barrel racing. However, the lady regularly asked her what she wanted out of riding and where she wanted to go as a rider. When her answer became "Trail ride on Trooper because I like being with him", she gave her a few more months of lessons and turned her loose.
> 
> I would hope both European and American jump instructors would do something similar. Good riding instruction should include what the student's goals are, what they can realistically achieve, their horse (if they own one), etc. Ideally, the instructor should explain the trade-offs at various forks in the road, so the rider can someday choose to go back and take a different route with understanding.


Point of thread? OP posts 2 videos - one from 2013, other from 2014 - of the highest level riders (Olympic calibre) of show jumping (not barrel racing) and asks about American vs. European style. This is not about "most" people that Littauer, writing in 1940-1950s, focused on. Additionally, the sport has dramatically changed in the last 60 years and can barely be compared to what Littauer wrote about back then.


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## updownrider

bsms - do you seriously think I haven't read (and re-read many times) every book you quote? I'm thanked by name in a book that was recently published. I do not need you to give me a summer reading list. I said I am a student of the sport. But I don't just read the books...


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## bsms

This is from post #1:



horsecv said:


> Hi- so I'm at a barn where there are two factions of riding, though all of it is english.
> 
> On one side are the American trainers and the other side are the European trainers. Both teach english style riding and are jumpers. But they have different teaching styles and philosophies and for the most part stick to themselves. My question is, is there a different philosophy, methodology or style of riding between the europeans and the americans?...


The OP was asking from the point of view of being "at a barn where there are two factions of riding" - so the OP seems to be asking at the student level, not necessarily at the highest levels of competition.

Yes, the sport has changed dramatically since Littauer wrote. However, Littauer was a very influential instructor, and it is reasonable, from a historical and even genealogical approach, that his ideas could influence how certain styles of riding are being taught today - just as the dressage masters of the 1600s and 1700s influence what is taught today, although competitive dressage as a sport goes in a somewhat different route. 

Thus I pointed out how Littauer and others - such as Chamberlin and his influence on the American Military Seat - might affect the style used in America vs Europe.

In my second post on this thread, I specified: "_I don't jump, but it seems reasonable to me that if an influential riding instructor in America expected new students to jump up to 3 feet in 20 lessons, and to do so with slack reins, then his approach might well lead to differences in how the horse is ridden._"

A person can write about history without having lived that history. I can write about the American Revolution, although I did not live it or participate in it. I made it clear I do not jump, and I have not discussed the best way to jump a fence. Nor was I the first to point out the influence of dressage on European jumpers. That would be jaydee in post 7, and she made a valid point. Indeed, she made at least 2 - both about dressage and the crest release.

I entered this thread to bring out that the US does have a culture of riding, but that it differs from the European one because the majority of Americans do not start with a base in dressage. I don't need to wait until I've been riding 50 years - which would happen when I turn 100 - to discuss how riding is taught or experienced in Arizona. I could have written it without EVER riding, because it is a cultural and historical matter. I've had friends on ranches and sometimes had the chance to go ride with them - with about 60 seconds of instruction - since the early 70s. Over the years, I've known a lot of folks who took riding lessons, and none of them were meant to ground someone in dressage. That difference between American & English culture might explain some of the differences the OP sees - and the culture of riding in Arizona is something I have experienced throughout my life. It would be hard not to, under the circumstances.

And since I spent 3.5 years living just north of Oxford, I felt qualified to point out the difference between the number of people I met riding there, and the number I meet riding their horses in my neighborhood or jogging paths here. I ran along a bridle path north of Oxford about 5 days a week during that time, and never once encountered a horse or even saw a hoofprint. That doesn't mean no one in Oxford rides, but it suggests a difference in the culture of riding...


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## jaydee

ponyboy said:


> I always thought that American vs. European jumping style meant crest release vs. auto release. Nothing to do with dressage at all.
> 
> Also, where I live most barns still offer all-round English lessons. It's not H/J vs. dressage. The barns who specialize in one discipline don't usually offer lessons for beginners.


No - Although I can't speak for the rest of Europe the 'crest release' has been around in the UK since people first began learning to jump obstacles - but we just called it 'holding on to the horses mane'!!!
With the increasing integration of the two countries - a lot of it I'm sure down to forums like this one - the term 'crest release' is now being used - well it does sound more technical I suppose.
With the dressage thing - in Europe at that level its just basic riding technique which if you wanted too you could use in a low level dressage competition - but is actually just about knowing how to get a horse on the bit, how to ride in collection (nothing fancy like Piaffe), how to use your legs, seat and hands to correctly engage the horse - all of which are essential in show jumping too if you're going to do it safely and effectively.
I wouldn't begin to train a horse to jump under saddle until it knew how to do a collected canter and I wouldn't teach a beginner how to jump on a horse that didn't already know how to jump and the rider hadn't already mastered the collected canter - we have little kids doing collected canter on 12.2 ponies in UK showing classes so it can't be so hard to master.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnReLnSzeVU
I've had lessons since I've been here and I've not noticed that much difference - other than things like 'reverse on the rail' comes to mind because that translated to me to mean 'halt and ask the horse to step backwards in line with the rail'


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## Beling

jaydee said:


> ...- but we just called it 'holding on to the horses mane'!!!


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## ponyboy

jaydee said:


> No - Although I can't speak for the rest of Europe the 'crest release' has been around in the UK since people first began learning to jump obstacles - but we just called it 'holding on to the horses mane'!!!
> With the increasing integration of the two countries - a lot of it I'm sure down to forums like this one - the term 'crest release' is now being used - well it does sound more technical I suppose.
> With the dressage thing - in Europe at that level its just basic riding technique which if you wanted too you could use in a low level dressage competition - but is actually just about knowing how to get a horse on the bit, how to ride in collection (nothing fancy like Piaffe), how to use your legs, seat and hands to correctly engage the horse - all of which are essential in show jumping too if you're going to do it safely and effectively.
> I wouldn't begin to train a horse to jump under saddle until it knew how to do a collected canter and I wouldn't teach a beginner how to jump on a horse that didn't already know how to jump and the rider hadn't already mastered the collected canter - we have little kids doing collected canter on 12.2 ponies in UK showing classes so it can't be so hard to master.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnReLnSzeVU


Yet in all the lower level British jumping I've seen on youtube, the horses are usually hollow...


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## jaydee

ponyboy said:


> Yet in all the lower level British jumping I've seen on youtube, the horses are usually hollow...


 I'm not sure what you mean by low level - local shows? You'll see horses jumping that way in the UK even at higher levels. Main reason being that so many horses and ponies bred for jumping today are naturals so people rush them and take shortcuts - it's all 'point and shoot' with no time spent on the basics and then they wonder why the horses never make it to the top or spend half their lives with back and leg problems - not to mention the mental ones.
The truth is no matter what side of the pond you're on there are people that can't be bothered to do the job properly which is why there are so few really good riders at that high level and some of those are close to drawing their pensions now
If you looked at places like Germany & Holland you'd see far more finesse I'm sure.


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## upnover

jaydee said:


> No - Although I can't speak for the rest of Europe the 'crest release' has been around in the UK since people first began learning to jump obstacles - but we just called it 'holding on to the horses mane'!!!
> With the increasing integration of the two countries - a lot of it I'm sure down to forums like this one - the term 'crest release' is now being used - well it does sound more technical I suppose.
> With the dressage thing - in Europe at that level its just basic riding technique which if you wanted too you could use in a low level dressage competition - but is actually just about knowing how to get a horse on the bit, how to ride in collection (nothing fancy like Piaffe), how to use your legs, seat and hands to correctly engage the horse - all of which are essential in show jumping too if you're going to do it safely and effectively.
> I wouldn't begin to train a horse to jump under saddle until it knew how to do a collected canter and I wouldn't teach a beginner how to jump on a horse that didn't already know how to jump and the rider hadn't already mastered the collected canter - we have little kids doing collected canter on 12.2 ponies in UK showing classes so it can't be so hard to master.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnReLnSzeVU
> I've had lessons since I've been here and I've not noticed that much difference - other than things like 'reverse on the rail' comes to mind because that translated to me to mean 'halt and ask the horse to step backwards in line with the rail'


Thank you for your response Jaydee! I was a little surprised that anyone would think the main difference between the two would be based on a release.... that's such a minute detail in jumping styles! I see plenty of international show jumpers using a crest release and plenty of American show jumpers using an auto. There's so much history and evolution of styles the answer to the OP's question is really quite complex IMO. 

First of all even within the "european style", there are differences within different countries. If you ever go to George Morris clinics (and he is an expert in different riding styles), he is constantly saying things like, "such and such way, like the French riders" or "this way like the Germans so like to do". He'll even go so far as to compare the French do it this way, the Germans do it this way, I like it this way and explain why. As far as European and American styles? I'm not entire sure what differences you're seeing particular but first you have to remember that in America most show jumpers have their roots in the Hunter or Equitation ring. Hunters in general ride more off their leg, light in the seat, looser rein, and keep their balance over the horse's natural center of gravity. A jumper on the other hand generally keeps more of a dressage type frame with the horse more on their haunch, more collected, and the rider rides more off the seat. Equitation riders are a bit of a combo of the two. Europeans don't really have hunters OR equitation so naturally a lot of them are more seat riders. None of these seats or styles are wrong, they are very different disciplines with different purposes. I *think* this might be what differences you're talking about. I find that a lot of horses I've ridden that are imported want to be ridden more off the seat, then again most of the imported horses I've ridden are jumpers....


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## upnover

ponyboy said:


> I always thought that American vs. European jumping style meant crest release vs. auto release. Nothing to do with dressage at all.
> 
> Also, where I live most barns still offer all-round English lessons. It's not H/J vs. dressage. The barns who specialize in one discipline don't usually offer lessons for beginners.



Where do you live?? Funny, almost all barns in our area specialize in one discipline, and we all start beginners. Although IMO any h/j barn that doesn't do some dressage probably isn't a very quality h/j barn... We're a little unique in that we have a few h/j trainers, AND we have a dressage trainer. She works with our h/j kids on occasion but has her own set of dressage clientele, goes to dressage shows, etc. But almost all barns here specialize in something and develop their kids in that route. (I am also combining hunters and jumpers in one h/j lump as they are usually categorized together as opposed to eventing or dressage)



As far as the crest release opinion... I commented on that in the above post.


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## jaydee

I think the closest thing we have to the US hunter/jumper/equitation classes in the UK are simply called 'Best Rider' and are only seen at Riding Club and local shows where competitors sometimes are asked to pop over a couple of fences
Our Ridden Hunter (on the flat) and Working Hunter classes are judged purely on the horses suitability to be a (fox) hunter based on traditionally accepted conformation and performance
I thought this was quite a good video from the Bernie Traurig channel because it shows examples of show jumpers from various countries in the 1960's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msi8XNXi238&list=UU47PQRfJWJ8n8zzoBL28vRQ


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## updownrider

^What is most interesting to me in that video is that George chuckles and admits that at the technical line no one knew what they were doing. Now there are several even more technical lines in even the lowest jumper classes. Flatwork, based on dressage exercises, is how riders learn to accomplish riding those lines.


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## jaydee

You would struggle to do it without knowing how, when and where to shorten and lengthen a stride to place your horse exactly right at a fence, when to hold back without losing impulsion and when to drive forwards. And you need a knowledge of basic dressage techniques to be able to do those things - though oddly enough one of the best instructors I had for jumping that really got those things over to me through using gridwork and ground poles was an American lady back in the late 60's whose husband was working in the UK for some reason and had their horses and ponies (one they'd brought from the US with them) at a place that was local to me


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## ponyboy

jaydee said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by low level - local shows?


I'm not sure. There's a Youtube channel called British Show Jumping that I watch. 



jaydee said:


> You'll see horses jumping that way in the UK even at higher levels. Main reason being that so many horses and ponies bred for jumping today are naturals so people rush them and take shortcuts - it's all 'point and shoot' with no time spent on the basics and then they wonder why the horses never make it to the top or spend half their lives with back and leg problems - not to mention the mental ones.


Yes, and the same thing definitely happens here. I just think it's funny that so people say you can't succeed in show jumping without dressage when I see so many people doing just that. Their horses might not last, but they can certainly win.


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## Stilton

Honestly the main difference i see is that the whole hunter/jumper thing in the US just does not exist at all in the UK. It is a riding style that is alien to us, as you would not want to ride like that out hunting! I see a lot of american riders that have a forward seat and two point around jumping courses, whereas over here we sit deep in the saddle until we are actually going over the fence


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## Foxhunter

I do not think there os a lot of difference in styles between the countries. Having said this riders have many styles amongst them! 

The difference comes with the hunter/jumper classes the US has and the way riders are taught to get into two point and stay there all round the course. 
I *hate* this and think it is a terrible way to teach as the order is not learning to use the most important aid - their seat. 

The crest release is not new, as Jaydee says, we Brits were taught to take a big piece of mane rather than sock the horse in the teeth. More than once this has kept me on over some big hunting fences!

Riders taught with the two point seat all the way are _never _going to be secure in the saddle - if the horse does anything untoward then the order is already half way out the saddle. Certainly none of them would last long in the fox hunting field. 

The only comparison with the US hunter/jumpers are the working hunter classes where the horse has to jump a course of natural looking fences, it is also judged on conformation, ride and manners. 

Majority of horses competing in working and hunter (no jumping) classes actually spend the winter season fox hunting.


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## gypsygirl

There are so many misconceptions about hunters in the US! as someone who rides regularly with a Hunter jumper trainer, it is hugely frustrating! I grew up riding at a H/J barn (a bigone outside of Chicago where there is a big H/J circuit) and have never once been told to ride a whole course in 2pt. In fact, I ride a far greater percent of a xc course in 2pt than a Hunter round. 

I agree, that hunters has gotten away from the Fox hunting "roots"so to speak. But that doesn't mean it's some useless, ridiculous sport. I start all my youngsters in the Hunter ring before I take them out eventing or fox hunting.

Ok rant over...

I do think that Europeans tend to sit more during their jumping rounds than Americans who prefer a forward seat (but being in 2pt the whole round). I personally prefer the forward seat as it is a more seemless transition to the take off to the jump. I also think it is nicer to the horse's back, so it is over all more functional.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## updownrider

Foxhunter said:


> Riders taught with the two point seat all the way are _never _going to be secure in the saddle - if the horse does anything untoward then the order is already half way out the saddle. Certainly none of them would last long in the fox hunting field.



Never? Let's watch Tori Covin as an example and prove you wrong.

Tori on a pony in a two point





Tori on a hunters in a two point





Tori on a jumper





If you do not see the difference in Tori's seat and upper body when she is on a hunter and then a jumper and the how secure she is on all of her horses, then I do not know what to say. By the way, Tori won her first Grand Prix at 13 years old, and fox hunts.

I used Tori as an example because there is so much video of her on youtube, but I could have used many people such as McLain Ward who learned to ride using a two point, or Lillie Keenan, Laura Kraut, Reed Kessler, etc., etc. 

The two point is very useful.


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## Corporal

Basic Dressage training is the basis for all good horsemanship. People that have been good trainers in the past implemented the principles, no matter what the discipline, whether they knew it not bc it WORKS!
But Dressage principles are FAR from what the Dressage Show World trains their horses to do, to be highly collected for LONG periods of time.
It began as training for European Military, Cavalry and Officer Mounts horses. In a war your horse might carry you all day. He's gotta have a break from all of that intense collection and constant cueing.
Jumping obstacles requires a horse that is scopey first, and can collect and also race like a TB, turn like a QH and wait for the rider to say, "jump this, please."]
I think everybody Internationally wants to win and support their barns back home. So, everybody is watching everybody else that is winning to see how they are training. Sometimes you have a brilliant horse with a brilliant rider and the time they have spent together has produced win after win. Maybe the training just works for that pair, but others will mimic it if they are out of the money, and there ARE fads.
Plus, great Trainers aren't cheap. So, riders make their way up the ranks often without the benefit of a George Morris (USA) and have to figure some things out on their own.
The older I get the more I see the need for slow, steady basic dressage training. When you are in your 20's sometimes you can't slow down and see this need. And, even though George is still jumping as he approaches his 80th birthday, many of us many not be. Certainly he sees himself as too old to compete in the classes himself.
He isn't too much older than me. I can remember when the idea of an American Hunter was the horse that jumped with style, and the American Jumper was the horse that could jump the highest and widest obstacles.
We are ALL much closer to ideas than in the 1960's bc of social media and the Internet, so ideas in training move much faster. I see an amalgamation of many of the best H/J training ideas now bc of this.
Just MHO.


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## jaydee

The only time you see if a seat is secure or not is when the horse actually does something wrong
What I see in these videos is a very steady looking well schooled horse that never puts a foot out of place - which is a credit to the rider/trainer - but you can get away with a forward seat all the time on a horse like that.
In eventing you alter your seat position depending on the ground, the distance between fences, if you need to gallop on, set the horse up for a 'skinny', sit down and push and most eventers tend to not get so forward in their seat over fences as show jumpers do - and not at all for some fences if they have a drop on the other side.


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## updownrider

jaydee said:


> The only time you see if a seat is secure or not is when the horse actually does something wrong


I've never seen a horse stop or do anything wrong with Scott Brash, show jumping's #1 ranked rider in the world and someone who doesn't always sit deep, so by your argument I have no idea if his seat is secure.


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## jaydee

I am not a fan of Scotts style and although he came up through the pony ranks his father spent a lot of money on good mounts for him and his sister - and he does very little of the work on the green horses or in the training. At that level he wouldn't want a horse that didn't perform consistently and well so I also have no clue of how good he is
I wouldn't rate him as highly as I would someone like Laura Collett who does so much of the training and work herself from the bottom up


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## Foxhunter

Updownrider - if you watch Tori on the second video she is actually sitting down and using her seat at most of the fences, ditto when show jumping. (In the UK she would have been disqualified for showing her horse the fence at the start)
You will also see when SJ her seat is coming back into the saddle as the horse starts to descend. 

I am not against two point, only the way the riders are made to keep it through the entire jump and being so ahead of the movement.


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## updownrider

Foxhunter - FEI jumper rules for a long time have allowed presenting a jump to a horse. The USEF jumper rules follows the same rules as the FEI.


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## upnover

Foxhunter said:


> Updownrider - if you watch Tori on the second video she is actually sitting down and using her seat at most of the fences, ditto when show jumping. (In the UK she would have been disqualified for showing her horse the fence at the start)
> You will also see when SJ her seat is coming back into the saddle as the horse starts to descend.
> 
> I am not against two point, only the way the riders are made to keep it through the entire jump and being so ahead of the movement.



I think what you are talking about are bad habits and poor riding. Do some hunters ride this way? Sure. But some european riders or jumper riders or foxhunters or whichever discipline you want to choose have their own bad habits that have stemmed from things that were good ideas. Being ahead of the movement is never a good idea no matter what discipline and it isn't how hunters should be ridden, it's just a common bad habit. I see a lot of jumper riders riding way behind the movement driving their horse the entire way and then having to hurl their bodies forward to catch up with their horse in the air. Is this correct? No. but it's done. I know many MANY hunter riders who ride very light in the tack who are incredibly secure. 

Your seat in the 2 point should still be over the middle of your saddle. the difference between a 2 point and a full seat (3 point) is how high out of the saddle you might be (there is a big range), and your upper body angulation. A faulty 2 point would put your hips on front of (or behind) your heel and that is insecure, just like a full seat with your hips in front of your heel is insecure. Upper body angle does not determine your security. 

And to add about Tori Colvin... If anyone has ever seen her ride in person she is a superb rider. Her horses are NOT always easy, they are NOT push button, but they are well schooled because she is an amazing rider. The fact that she makes it look easy is a huge testament to her that she can ride incredibly well and make it look lovely at the same time. I did a George Morris clinic a few months ago and he raved about her and said she had the most God given talent he has ever seen in his career. He said he has never seen anything like her before. I'm pretty sure her ribbons come largely from her talent, not just the fact that she has some big money backers.


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## upnover

Foxhunter said:


> Updownrider - (In the UK she would have been disqualified for showing her horse the fence at the start)
> You will also see when SJ her seat is coming back into the saddle as the horse starts to descend.



According to USEF's rules you have 45 seconds from when the buzzer goes off to when you need to break the timers to start your round. In that 45 seconds you can address a jump or "go on a tour", as long as you do not break the timers.


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## updownrider

jaydee said:


> I am not a fan of Scotts style and although he came up through the pony ranks his father spent a lot of money on good mounts for him and his sister - and he does very little of the work on the green horses or in the training. At that level he wouldn't want a horse that didn't perform consistently and well so I also have no clue of how good he is
> I wouldn't rate him as highly as I would someone like Laura Collett who does so much of the training and work herself from the bottom up


I said Scott was the number #1 ranked show jumper in the world. Correct me if I am wrong, but Laura Collett is mostly an event rider. It is hard and not fair to compare Scott and Laura since they do not compete in the same discipline. Scott jumps much bigger technical courses week after week on completely different types of horses while Laura does not jump fences as high or technical but has horses that do dressage, eventing and much lower fences in show jumping. 

And no matter how much money is spent on a horse for Scott, he still has to ride it around the course. Almost everyone at his level is riding multimillion dollar horses. He does not have an advantage because he rides an expensive not green horse in 5* competitions.


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## jaydee

updownrider said:


> I said Scott was the number #1 ranked show jumper in the world. Correct me if I am wrong, but Laura Collett is mostly an event rider. It is hard and not fair to compare Scott and Laura since they do not compete in the same discipline. Scott jumps much bigger technical courses week after week on completely different types of horses while Laura does not jump fences as high or technical but has horses that do dressage, eventing and much lower fences in show jumping.
> 
> And no matter how much money is spent on a horse for Scott, he still has to ride it around the course. Almost everyone at his level is riding multimillion dollar horses. He does not have an advantage because he rides an expensive not green horse in 5* competitions.


I didn't say Scott was a bad rider - I'm just not a fan of his style (and we were discussing style after all) and never have been. If I was looking at riders at that level then Ben Maher has a better style but he doesn't ride as well as Beezie Madden (who has just become the first woman to win George V cup at Hickstead) and I don't think he rates as highly in style as Steve Guerdat, Marcus Ehning or even someone like Louise Pavitt who's an incredibly strong rider who also has to work hard to get where she is.
I gave Laura as an example because she does compete at top level and cross country at that level requires a much firmer seat than show jumping. While Scott is spending most of his time competing she competes and rides out usually 10 horses every day, works around her yard and is involved in training them from the ground level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lvYDHPjQno


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## Foxhunter

What I said was that I really dislike the way 2 point is taught to the orders to stay in the position the whole round.

Secondly I know there is time to go through the start but, she stopped with her horse facing the fence for several seconds - that should be deemed showing the horse the fence.


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## equitate

The shorter the period of training (full seat/half seat/two point/work without stirrups/etc) the poorer the depth of the rider's skills. Pretty simple. Caprilli seat has all but disappear (in favor of crest release), it simply takes too long to become safe and at home on the horse.


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## Regula

frlsgirl said:


> I used to ride in Germany back in the 80s and now I ride in Oklahoma. Some differences that I noticed:
> 
> I was taught to ride with a really long leg (for Dressage), whereas here they keep the stirrups a lot shorter.
> 
> Lessons in Germany included a mix of flat work and jumping or at least cavaletti work. Where as here you have to specify if you want a Dressage lesson, a H/J lesson, a jumping lesson etc.
> 
> I was very confused about the whole Hunter/Jumper thing when I first moved here in the 90s, because in Germany it's about time and how many jumps you knock down. There isn't or wasn't a jumping discipline where you are judged on style because the assumption is that by the time you are jumping you can already ride well/didn't need to worry about your position anymore.
> 
> Germans are a little stricter when it comes to your position/ability to ride. Everyone starts out on the lunge line and you very slowly progress to riding in a small group. Here in Oklahoma, they put you on a QH, smack it on the butt, and off you go


Absolutely this! I can't contribute the the discussion that upnover, Foxhunter, bsms etc are having here, but I grew up riding in Germany (in the 80s and 90s) and ride in Canada now. I've experienced much the same. Kids in Germany always started out on a lunge line practicing their seat, followed by general riding lessons on the flat - which could include e.g. ground pole or cavaletti work. That was the same for everyone, regardless of what your goals were. When the instructor deemed you ready, you could go on jumping or do whatever you want. Even trail riding was preceded by this - cause after all, what are you going to do if your horse spooks or bolts on a trail.

In Canada, people tend to have more of a "get on the horse and go" attitude. Beginner kid wants to jump, they usually will within the first 10 lessons.

There was a big difference in the horses too though. Our school horses were nowhere near "dead broke". Some of them bucked, some of them bolted (no rearers though), and everyone had fallen off at least a few times. It was never a big deal, we just learned how to ride through it. It seems like here in NA there is a big emphasis on safe, safe, safe horses (and the QH as a breed lends itself to it), so that a beginner can jump on a horse and go. We learned to ride a spook and bolt first before we even ever saw a trail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch

I have not read all of the posts here, but will add my 2 cent's worth.

In the past there is a real difference between the focus of the training of the horse and the training of the rider, when comparing the styles of the two "sides of the pond".

I will address this to the showjumping world, as I have some international experience here.

European training of the jumping horse, *in years past*, were very different in Europe than in America. European training of the jumpers included a huge focus on dressage as the base. They focused on bend, balance and engagement which all helps tremendously in the jumpers.

Americans in the past, put much less focus on dressage. In the 70's I used to event during the summers and would show jumpers in the winter circuit in Florida (where the event farm wintered). I spent time teaching dressage to the other jumper riders which, at the time, was considered "revolutionary" and somewhat controversial.

The fact that in those days the Germans were constant winners in showjumpers did not go unnoticed by many in this country. Slowly, the idea of giving horses a better dressage base came to be the norm here, too. Our results show the effectiveness of this training.

The rider

I will say that the "classical" position of the rider, over fences, was not nearly as huge a focus in Europe as it has been here in America. Here, most of our jumper riders came out of the hunter/equitation rings where a classically effective rider position is a major focus. 

Chamberlain brought the European forward seat to America and we worked hard to perfect the position. The likes of Chapot and Morris forged the ideals for the rider's position.

De Nemethy came from Europe and really helped us tie this position into an effective showjumping style that we had for many years. 

Is this "classical position" necessary for successful showjumping? No, but it does offer some security that less classical styles might not have. European riders were, for a long time, known for some pretty "nonclassical" position styles. Lower legs flying back, whole bodies way out of the tack...... However, this did not keep them from winning on their well trained horses.

Now, American jumper riders are using a LOT of dressage in their training and European riders are working on more classical positions as they do offer more security. As a result, the differences are becoming less and less discernable, IMO.


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