# Major Balance Problems



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Not walking straight and nearly falling ARE signs of a neuro disorder.

Sounds like your vet treated for EPM. Has he been tested for anything else?


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## Ryle (Jul 13, 2007)

As mls said, the lack of balance is a symptom of neurological damage. This sort of issue can have many different causes--Eastern or Western Equine Encephalitis, WNV, EPM, head/neck trauma, inner ear issues, guttural pouch issues, etc etc. The key is a good physical examination, thorough history and then appropriate testing.

Is the university currently examining and testing your horse?

How long has this been going on? When did it start? 

Was there ever any fever? 

Did your vet run any diagnostic tests? If so, what were they?

What treatment did your vet give?

Why did he give large doses of ivermectin and when during treatment did he give them?

Had your horse travelled prior to the onset of problems?

Had she or any horse around her had any upper respiratory infection?

Was she current on vaccinations against EEE, WEE and WNV?


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## Miss Dakota (Jul 19, 2010)

According to what I have read about EPM, it is caused by opossums feces. We live in Maine. The symptoms sound the same though. Most of the test have come back negative so far and the vet seemed to think that she is neurologically sound. She is three years old and is still very affectionate but if you hold her halter, she will lean to the right almost falling. Do you know if porcupine droppings can do the same thing?


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## Miss Dakota (Jul 19, 2010)

Daokota is a 800 lb paint. This started almost two months ago. It started out gradually and continued to progress to the point she is now. She has not had a fever any time the vet has come. The test that the vet did run have come back negative and I am not sure exactly which ones were performed. I haven't gotten the written results yet. Dakota was given 7.35 syringe of Equine Ivermectin Paste (full tube) five days in a row, along with 10cc of Banamine and 37.5 g of Uniprim for five days. This combination was given approximately three weeks ago. She gave her the Ivermectin thinking it might be a parasite in her spinal column. This treatment didn't seem to change her behavior at all. She is our only horse and she has not been in contact with any other horses. She has not traveled. The only new thing we had done around the time she started this was to bring in a new male pygmy goat from a local farm. This farm had sheep, pygmy's, a pony, chickens and turkeys. We also have chicken and turkeys that do end up free ranging in her pasture. The goats also tend to hang in her pasture a lot. She hadn't had her WNV this year. Some horse owners stressed some controversy and concerns about the vaccination and I was hesitant to get her shot. Hind site being 20/20, I wished I had. I haven't been able to get her feet done because of her balance. The vet said their not that bad yet but I am not used them being so long.


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## Miss Dakota (Jul 19, 2010)

Something I neglected to mention was that when this all started, she shook her head a lot and lapped her lips a lot. She almost acted like something was irritating her ears. I assumed that if a horse could get an ear infection, the antibiotics would have helped. That is why I wondered if it could be something do do with the inner ear and if so, what it possibly could be.


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## Ryle (Jul 13, 2007)

*Is she currently being examined, tested or treated by the university?*
Ok, so she wasn't treated for EPM. 

And I'm unsure what parasite the vet would have tried to treat by dosing ivermectin like that. I've not seen ANY references in any of the neurological disease literature or heard that in any of the neuro lectures I have attended that recommend that dosing. But I can tell you what has been seen with quite a few horses with neurological damage---ivermectin can then cause neuro toxicity at even single normal doses and increase neurological deficits. And with any horse that has neurological damage this is more likely because the blood-brain-barrier which normally protects the central nervous system from things that should get to it may not be functioning well.

Were you ever taking her temperature daily after you started seeing symptoms or are you just assuming that she didn't have a fever? This is very important because EEE, WEE, WNV, EHV caused neurological disease will all tend to run a fever early on. But with EPM you will not see a fever.

Was she ever scared of the goat?

Are you using an equine vet or a mixed practitioner? I ask because a mixed practitioner generally will not be as current on equine diseases or treatment options. 

Get a pen and paper and call your vet. Ask him/her what tests have been run, what parasite he thought the ivermectin might be treating and what he was using the Uniprim for. And write it all down. It's very important that horse owners be informed pet owners. Ask questions and learn. The more you know the better you can be prepared to give your horse good care.


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## Ryle (Jul 13, 2007)

Miss Dakota said:


> According to what I have read about EPM, it is caused by opossums feces. We live in Maine. The symptoms sound the same though.


The symptoms to all neurological diseases are pretty similar. That is why you have to look very closely at the overall horse, history and symptoms and TEST for appropriate diseases.



Miss Dakota said:


> Do you know if porcupine droppings can do the same thing?


 No, they cannot. 



Miss Dakota said:


> Most of the test have come back negative so far and the vet seemed to think that she is neurologically sound.


But what tests have been run? There are hundreds of kinds of tests that can be run and you have to know what your vet has tested for otherwise knowing that the tests were negative has very little meaning.

And if your horse can't stand up straight and your vet doesn't think she has neurological deficits, it's time to get a second opinion.


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## Ryle (Jul 13, 2007)

Miss Dakota said:


> Something I neglected to mention was that when this all started, she shook her head a lot and lapped her lips a lot. She almost acted like something was irritating her ears. I assumed that if a horse could get an ear infection, the antibiotics would have helped. That is why I wondered if it could be something do do with the inner ear and if so, what it possibly could be.


Antibiotics aren't "one drug cures all infections". So, just being on antibiotics doesn't mean that there couldn't be an infection somewhere. Antibiotics treat different types of bacterial infections and unless you choose the appropriate antibiotic for the type of infection that is present, you can give antibiotics for weeks and see no result at all.


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## MissPhoebe (Jul 13, 2010)

Wow! My story is much too long to type all of here (I'll try the condensed version) but I had a horse who acted just like that and after test upon test, going to Cornell, consulting with New Bolton, spinal taps, and the whole kit and kaboodle we found out it was Lyme Disease, which, if you know anything about it, is known as "the great imitator". When it first happened he would just go lame all of a sudden. One minute fine, the next it looked as though he was walking on eggshells up front and he walked very stiff legged, like he would throw his limbs out and around. The weird thing was that the lameness seemed to shift around and not stick to one limb so that was the first clue something was off. The next time he went lame suddenly he carried his head very low to the ground and used he whiskers to sense where the ground was and that was when we started thinking EPM. He would walk all stiff with his head down and when he was in his stall he would lean on the wall and keep his head cocked to the side. We took his for a spinal because of the symptoms and he actually laid down the whole way to the vet and then fell off the trailer when we got there because he couldn't stay upright. He failed the neurological exam by the vet but his spinal came back no EPM. The really weird part...2 days later he was normal again for about 2 months. Then it happened again but this time he passed the neuro test even though he was swaying and lame again. They x-rayed him all over and looked for Wobbler's, OCD lesions, and some other things but still nothing. Finally, someone took a blood test for Lyme, and, lo and behold, there it was. We ran him under A LOT of Doxycycline for I think, but it was awhile ago, two months. Twice a day, lots of crushed pills and molasses and gradually he got completely better. He is now ridden daily and jumped frequently, and doesn't have any lingering effects. Just wanted to let you know because lyme disease isn't something people often think about but it is very prevalent in the North East and if it isn't caught in time it can have lasting effects on the joints and begin attacking internal organs as well. Looking back when he first started showing signs was before he went lame and he would do small little things that we thought were behavioral at the time such as refusal to pick up a canter, refusing to go in a certain direction, seemed to forget training over night and go back to square one (and this was a horse who was competing and trained not a newbie under saddle). Does any of this sound familiar for you situation? Take care and best of luck.


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## Miss Dakota (Jul 19, 2010)

Actually, she will act as though her hind legs are stiff at times. We have kept her sprayed but have found ticks on her a few times and had to remove them. Some days she will use her legs as though nothing is wrong with them but her balance is still very bad. Other days, she acts like she doesn't even want to lift her leg to get rid of the horse flies around her belly. I couldn't figure out if she was stiff or just trying to keep her balance. I am going to ask the vet about Lyme disease. Thank you.


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## MissPhoebe (Jul 13, 2010)

Best of luck. Keep your head up, it sounds as though you are working with your vet to find out what is wrong and what you can do. I've been around quite a few horses, my own included, that looked as though they were really down and out that were able to recover completely or almost completely and still lead happy lives and be ridden. You will have to post when you get some answers.


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## Miss Dakota (Jul 19, 2010)

I am going to call the vet and get that info. I just checked her ears out of curiosity and there seems to be a lot of moist black discharge in them. I had never really checked her ears before so I am not sure if this is normal. I do not know much about the medical aspect of this but I can tell you her mannerism as I watch her a lot to see if anything new is happening. She is at a point where she doesn't seem to be getting any worse but no better either. Up until this week, she still had the glint in her eye but I think she is getting tired, the glint seems to be leaving. She still lifts her head, shakes it when flies land, and moves it around to bite at flies. I did notice this morning that there seemed to be a white discharge from her nose. This is new. There doesn't seem to be much but it looks almost powdery in her nose. I want to thank you for your concern and I do think I may need to look for another vet. They are all general vets though, none that specialize in equine. Actually, I have only found two that will service this area and one is so busy it is hard to get him. The last time I talked to him, he wasn't even taking new patients.


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## Miss Dakota (Jul 19, 2010)

Ryle said:


> Antibiotics aren't "one drug cures all infections". So, just being on antibiotics doesn't mean that there couldn't be an infection somewhere. Antibiotics treat different types of bacterial infections and unless you choose the appropriate antibiotic for the type of infection that is present, you can give antibiotics for weeks and see no result at all.




I hope you are still monitoring this discussion because I learned something new today that may be of interest. I found out that when all of this started, Dakota had been chewing on a black cherry tree. She chewed much of the bark off a tree approximately 5 inches in diameter up to approximately six feet. I have found a great deal of information pertaining to the leaves of the tree but nothing about the bark. The leaves can cause cyanide poisoning and can be fatal. Do you know if the bark can be poisonous to her and if so, could it cause her incoordination for such a long time. I understand that cyanide attaches to the red blood cells creating a lack of oxygen. Does this sound right to you? I have sent this question out to several people and I am calling the vet in the morning to ask her. Do you have any thoughts on this? I also want to thank you for your concern in this matter. It is greatly appreciated and has been very helpful. I have looked into many things thanks to your suggestions.


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## Ryle (Jul 13, 2007)

"*WARNING
*The cyanide compounds in the twigs and older, wilted leaves are toxic (and possibly lethal) to horses and cattle.
In the spring of 2001 hundreds of thoroughbred horse foals where mysteriously miscarried or stillborn. The problem was traced to Eastern Tent Caterpillars that had fed on the many black cherry trees in the Lexington, Kentucky horse farm region. The caterpillars concentrated the toxic cyanide compounds present in black cherry foliage. Their feces contaminated the famous bluegrass pastures and was ingested by the grazing mares. 
A spokesman for the University of Kentucky Agriculture Department reports: "The unusual weather pattern could have caused the cyanide levels in the trees to be higher..." The university recommends that horse breeders restrict access to pastures when caterpillar populations are high."--http://www.floridata.com/ref/p/prun_ser.cfm

"
​Most animals can consume small amounts of healthy leaves, bark and fruit safely. Toxicity typically occurs when hungry animals consume large amounts of fresh leaves or small amounts of damaged leaves (as little as 2 ounces)."--http://www.canr.msu.edu/horseadults/publications/Toxic%20Plant%20Bulletins/Trees.pdf


If she was eating the bark, I would bet she was eating leaves as well or there could be an issue if you have the caterpillars in your area. Either way, the black cherry tree is a possible cause of the issue and it should be removed from the pasture or fenced so that she can no longer reach it.


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## MissPhoebe (Jul 13, 2010)

:shock: Wow! Good catch. How did you figure out that she was eating it and put all of it together? Curious to hear if that's what it was and if she improves when removed from the situation. Best wishes!


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

The EXACT thing happended to a gelding at our barn. Our vet treated for EPM, but eventually said he didn't have it. His feed was upped and changed to senior feed, and he's been fine ever since. I'm guessing this isn't the case for you since you have a youngster, the gelding was 20.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Miss Dakota (Jul 19, 2010)

Ryle said:


> "*WARNING
> *The cyanide compounds in the twigs and older, wilted leaves are toxic (and possibly lethal) to horses and cattle.
> In the spring of 2001 hundreds of thoroughbred horse foals where mysteriously miscarried or stillborn. The problem was traced to Eastern Tent Caterpillars that had fed on the many black cherry trees in the Lexington, Kentucky horse farm region. The caterpillars concentrated the toxic cyanide compounds present in black cherry foliage. Their feces contaminated the famous bluegrass pastures and was ingested by the grazing mares.
> A spokesman for the University of Kentucky Agriculture Department reports: "The unusual weather pattern could have caused the cyanide levels in the trees to be higher..." The university recommends that horse breeders restrict access to pastures when caterpillar populations are high."--http://www.floridata.com/ref/p/prun_ser.cfm
> ...



Actually, my husband was talking to someone today about how the horse had chewed some of the trees that he had pulled into the pasture while twitching firewood. The individual mentioned that black cherry can be lethal and my husband remembered that there was a black cherry near this pile that the horse had nibbled on. We looked at it today, chopped it down and buried the stump. We walked the whole pasture to make sure there were no more. I am not sure why she would have chewed this particular tree, especially considering people tell us that we spoil her with feed and hay. I have had a skinny horse, I don't like it. 
I want to thank you and everyone else for so much help. It is amazing how many horse lovers will step up to help you out.


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## Miss Dakota (Jul 19, 2010)

I just added Dakota's picture. I hope it worked. Thought you might like to see the pretty little girl you have been helping. Thank you everyone.


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