# Accused of purchasing stolen horse



## AnitaAnne

zombieassaultunit said:


> I purchased an OTTB over a year ago from a woman who had purchased the horse a month earlier on a verbal agreement from someone out of state. Several months after I had purchased the horse this earlier owner comes out stating the horse was stolen. Several weeks go by and we discover the horse was not stolen, that she allowed the woman to take him on a payment plan and later returned a check and demanded the horse back. I had the horse at this point, fast forward a year and she has won the price of the horse from the person I bought the horse from in a civil suit. The woman who claimed he was stolen and won the money she was owed is now threatening me with arrest stating that I have committed a felony and I have 7 days to hand the horse over to her. This was never a criminal case and she already won the amount she was owed and I have owned the horse for over a year. Should I contact a lawyer?


Yes contact a lawyer immediately!!!

This person is not to be trusted. Make sure the attorney understands that the woman has been paid for the horse from the one you purchased the horse from.

Make sure you have a record of every purchase made for the horse, including the original purchase price. It may be that the first owner will be able to get the horse back (not sure about that) but your costs will need to be refunded. 

Also make sure you find the case number and location of the civil suit to provide your attorney will as much info as you can. I would also make sure the horse was in a very safe and secure location. Do not advertise on any online sites anything about this horse.


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## mmshiro

I'd hire a lawyer yesterday and ask him if what she does constitutes extortion. Then keep the money (civil damages) and the horse.


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## Chevaux

Exactly what AnitaAnne has said!

FWIW, at first blush it looks like you are probably in a safe position but it’s always in the details, isn’t it? I am curious if anyone here thinks the other party would be committing an unlawful act (like extortion or something) by trying to bully you into giving up the horse.


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## AnitaAnne

Chevaux said:


> Exactly what AnitaAnne has said!
> 
> FWIW, at first blush it looks like you are probably in a safe position but it’s always in the details, isn’t it? I am curious if anyone here thinks the other party would be committing an unlawful act (like extortion or something) by trying to bully you into giving up the horse.


Good case for harassment too! How did the first person even get your contact information??? 

Be very careful in everything you say and do. Would not let the person your purchased the horse from know where you have the horse either...they must have told the first person you have the horse. But why would they do that??? That person threw you under the bus...


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## zombieassaultunit

AnitaAnne said:


> Good case for harassment too! How did the first person even get your contact information???
> 
> Be very careful in everything you say and do. Would not let the person your purchased the horse from know where you have the horse either...they must have told the first person you have the horse. But why would they do that??? That person threw you under the bus...




She got my name, and only my name from other people in the horse community, even sending people out to see if they could find the horse. I have since moved the horse to an undisclosed location.


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## greentree

Well, (I am not a lawyer...), there are two trains on this track....one, buying stolen property is not legal. I know you didn’t know the situation, but that is the law in most states. The question for the attorney is...If the woman was paid in a judgment, does that resolve the “stolen property”?
Two...possession is 9/10ths of the law. 

Did the Jockey Club papers come with the horse?


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## SilverMaple

1.) Hire a lawyer immediately

2.) Ascertain whether the horse is or is not actually considered stolen. If it is ruled that he was stolen, then you will have to deal with the fact that it is illegal to purchase stolen property, even if you weren't aware it was stolen. 

3.) Get all of your paperwork together for every expense you paid on this horse (feed, vet, farrier, board, etc.) and hopefully you have a bill of sale.


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## zombieassaultunit

greentree said:


> Well, (I am not a lawyer...), there are two trains on this track....one, buying stolen property is not legal. I know you didn’t know the situation, but that is the law in most states. The question for the attorney is...If the woman was paid in a judgment, does that resolve the “stolen property”?
> Two...possession is 9/10ths of the law.
> 
> Did the Jockey Club papers come with the horse?



The woman claiming the horse was stolen had no papers. The woman I bought him from had no papers either. The original woman also stated herself that there was no written sales agreement, that it was a verbal contract and that she was given payment and returned it demanding the horse. I feel like in that case she broke her own verbal agreement voiding her claim. But she was still awarded payment for the horse in a civil suit. It was never a criminal case.


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## zombieassaultunit

SilverMaple said:


> 1.) Hire a lawyer immediately
> 
> 2.) Ascertain whether the horse is or is not actually considered stolen. If it is ruled that he was stolen, then you will have to deal with the fact that it is illegal to purchase stolen property, even if you weren't aware it was stolen.
> 
> 3.) Get all of your paperwork together for every expense you paid on this horse (feed, vet, farrier, board, etc.) and hopefully you have a bill of sale.


I have coggins, vet bills, feed bills, microchip, bill of sale. The horse was in poor condition when I got him, even having to have surgery due to an injury the vet said was at least a year old, which puts it when he was in the care of the woman stating he was stolen. He had also never had his teeth done which had caused horrible abscesses and severe weight loss. It took me a lot of time and money to get him healthy again.


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## farmpony84

So... I'm not a lawyer but if she has already been awarded the money from the lady that sold him to you... then she has already received payment for the horse. That to me means her case is over... she's looking to gain money AND the horse.

I would definitely contact a lawyer but I would THINK you will be in the clear.


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## whisperbaby22

What a mess. But I have heard of cases where the person demanding the horse back balks when presented with a bill for the amount of money you have put into the horse. Good luck, and yes - get some advice from a lawyer.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Contact an attorney right away. Collect up all your receipts and the bill of sale for the horse, find out the case number and jurisdiction of the civil suit, and give everything to your attorney. Have all contact with either party be through the attorney, you don't speak to them at all. 

This does not sound like a criminal case on the face of it or the judge wouldn't have awarded her the purchase price of the horse, he'd have had the marshall's office or the sheriff come out and seize the horse pending the decision of the case. This lady sounds like a whack job and just isn't anybody you need to have anything to do with.


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## AnitaAnne

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Contact an attorney right away. Collect up all your receipts and the bill of sale for the horse, find out the case number and jurisdiction of the civil suit, and give everything to your attorney. Have all contact with either party be through the attorney, you don't speak to them at all.
> 
> This does not sound like a criminal case on the face of it or the judge wouldn't have awarded her the purchase price of the horse, he'd have had the marshall's office or the sheriff come out and seize the horse pending the decision of the case. This lady sounds like a whack job and just isn't anybody you need to have anything to do with.


This is what I thought too. But one never really knows. 

Seems to me if the 1st owner refused payment, then went to small claims and was awarded payment, should be case closed. A paid-for horse cannot be also described as stolen. 


How common is the appearance of the horse? Would be highly tempted to pass the word that the horse was sold due to the trouble caused, meanwhile rename the horse and give it a different age and history...well loved riding school horse or something similar.


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## zombieassaultunit

AnitaAnne said:


> This is what I thought too. But one never really knows.
> 
> Seems to me if the 1st owner refused payment, then went to small claims and was awarded payment, should be case closed. A paid-for horse cannot be also described as stolen.
> 
> 
> How common is the appearance of the horse? Would be highly tempted to pass the word that the horse was sold due to the trouble caused, meanwhile rename the horse and give it a different age and history...well loved riding school horse or something similar.


My trailer has been down and the horse was out to pasture for over seven months due to his poor condition and me making sure he was well enough to ride again. With all of this going on I haven't done much of anything with him.


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## PoptartShop

Definitely contact a lawyer. I don't think this woman will have a case though, she will probably lose. 

She got her money back from the lady who sold the horse to you, that's it for her IMO. Has nothing to do with you. The horse is yours. What happened between those two really isn't your problem...she can't really do anything. 

As long as you have your bill of sale & all receipts...you should be fine. But definitely keep your wits about you, as people are crazy!


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## Whinnie

zombieassaultunit said:


> My trailer has been down and the horse was out to pasture for over seven months due to his poor condition and me making sure he was well enough to ride again. With all of this going on I haven't done much of anything with him.


I think what was meant by "common appearance" was, is your horse a color and build that doesn't really stand out? Just another bay or sorrel, no really distinctive markings? Then you could hide him in plain sight by re-naming and having a different history of him that you tell people. BTW, how do you know there was a judgement that was paid to the original owner? How do you know people have come out looking for the horse? Who is the source of this information? Have you had any direct contact from the original owner?

You could get a copy of that paper work from the clerk of court that issued the judgement. It is like when insurance pays you for something that was stolen. If the stolen item shows up, the insurance company gets it, NOT the original owner. The insurance company has the right to sell it to make back the claim they paid out. So the original owner has already been paid for the horse, through a court action. No way can she have the horse as well.


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## zombieassaultunit

Whinnie said:


> I think what was meant by "common appearance" was, is your horse a color and build that doesn't really stand out? Just another bay or sorrel, no really distinctive markings? Then you could hide him in plain sight by re-naming and having a different history of him that you tell people. BTW, how do you know there was a judgement that was paid to the original owner? How do you know people have come out looking for the horse? Who is the source of this information? Have you had any direct contact from the original owner?
> 
> You could get a copy of that paper work from the clerk of court that issued the judgement. It is like when insurance pays you for something that was stolen. If the stolen item shows up, the insurance company gets it, NOT the original owner. The insurance company has the right to sell it to make back the claim they paid out. So the original owner has already been paid for the horse, through a court action. No way can she have the horse as well.


 
The horse has no distinctive markings, pretty general appearance. I was contacted by the woman I bought the horse from, she let me know about the civil suit and sent me a picture of the judgement. I then started receiving messages from people I do not know stating that the original owner won the judgement and I have 7 days to return the horse before a warrant will be issued. I am by no means stupid and have a basic knowledge of how the court system works. This was never a criminal case and she was granted payment in the amount owed for what she was selling the horse for.


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## whisperbaby22

Crazy. Keep us updated.


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## LoriF

Woman one sold the horse to woman two on a verbal payment plan. Woman two sells the horse to woman three (you). Woman one then changes her mind and wants the horse back so refuses payment from woman two and claims horse was stolen. So she takes woman two to court and admits that there was a verbal agreement and refused payment. It really sounds to me that woman two won the case not woman one. Woman two was just required to finish out the original agreement and pay off what she owed woman one. Woman one lost the case because she wanted the horse back. I would still get a lawyer, and if woman one keeps it up take her to court for incurred damages because she is forcing you to address this situation. 

I would tell woman one through this established grapevine that the horse is living with someone else in the mountains on the other side of the country. It would really suck to keep having to look over your shoulder all of the time thinking that she will come or have someone come to steal the horse back.


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## Acadianartist

Yes, of course contact a lawyer. Who buys a horse on a verbal agreement anyway? 

It doesn't matter how unhealthy he was before you got him, or how much money you put into him since horses are property, legally speaking. There has to be a determination of whether the horse was actually in the ownership of the person who sold it to you. Either she owned it, in which case she was entitled to sell it to you, in which case you should be fine, or she didn't, in which case the sale to you is void. A lawyer needs to get involved in this yesterday.


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## QtrBel

All kinds of people buy on verbal agreements. Most of mine were bought and sold on verbals. In an established horse community (or just small community) where most everyone knows everyone else or from established breeders/sellers, usually there aren't issues. Throw in Craigs List and internet ads and know one knows anyone or even knows someone that knows anyone and when you have people that aren't recognized for their expertise or quality of goods (or lack of) then all sorts of things can and do go wrong. Buyer Beware. So true with horses and purchasing from unknowns. You do your research, pay your money and pray for the best now a days and when you don't know the other party whether buyer or seller a paper trail is always a good idea.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Acadianartist said:


> Yes, of course contact a lawyer. Who buys a horse on a verbal agreement anyway?
> 
> It doesn't matter how unhealthy he was before you got him, or how much money you put into him since horses are property, legally speaking. There has to be a determination of whether the horse was actually in the ownership of the person who sold it to you. Either she owned it, in which case she was entitled to sell it to you, in which case you should be fine, or she didn't, in which case the sale to you is void. A lawyer needs to get involved in this yesterday.


Down here horse people do as much 'verbal contracting' as they do paper. I rarely do things on word and handshake alone but, if I KNOW the person, I might make an exception here & there. Current exception: 

T tells me he's got a mare I just have to have. I go over and look and feel sorry for her because she was skin & bone (she was donated to a Boys Club who told someone to take her to the local kill buyer) and he decided she was WAY too nice and needed a good home. So they decide I need to belong to her. T says, he'd love a foal out of her if I'd breed her once she was healthy again. If I would do that, he'd pay the Boys Club the donation they would have gotten if she was sold to the KB. I took her, fed her up for a year, got her looking great and healthy. In the meantime, she has kicked a huge hole in my barn during a hail storm and it's been long enough now I forget what all else she has destroyed, let's just say she was very destructive. 

Once she was healthy and up to weight, I bred her to Skippy. In her 8th month, she lost the foal the first go round. Bred again the following year, she's carrying fine but colicked and was PTS. She was an 'on again off again' mild colicker, probably had a lipoma or something. Sooooo, following season, I put Dolly in foal to Skippy and she carries and produces a really nice colt (oh yes, and the deal was for a colt, no fillies) so I tell T to come look at his new horse. T, knowing how much the first mare cost me, says, "You really don't have to honor the contract, you're out so much more money than I put into the deal and you don't have the mare anymore either, so really got nothing out of that.". I said, "Nah, you have been wanting a colt by Skippy for a long time now and we shook on it. I'm MORE than happy to honor the deal.". He comes and looks at the colt, fools around with him some and is tickled pink with him. I kept him until weaning, but then kept him a little longer because my other foal (2 weeks apart) still needs him for security and company. He MAY go home this week, if T has time to come get him. If not, no big deal, he'll get him when he's ready to deal with him. Meanwhile, paperwork for registration has all been submitted, transfer has been done, it's HIS colt. All on a word & handshake. So a good deal can be done that way, but I wouldn't recommend it for just anybody. T & I have been doing business for YEARS and we've never had a piece of paper between us. But, I know he's just as good as his word on anything, and so's his whole family. 

In a buy/sell situation where I don't know anyone involved, paper paper paper.


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## Acadianartist

Well, maybe it's because I come from a long line of lawyers in the family, and happen to be married to one, but even with friends, I would want things written down. You just never know... I mean, what if the person with whom you had a verbal agreement dies suddenly, and the family decides it wants the horse that was never sold on paper back? It's such a simple thing to write it down... I get that people want to trust their friends, but you have to think through all the possible scenarios. People pass away suddenly, get divorced, go bankrupt and have creditors trying to recover their money, etc. etc. etc. Why take the chance?

Case in point: my daughter used to ride at a stable full of Friesans. The owner was in a common-law relationship with the coach and BO. He was ill, and barely mobile, so she did everything. She was breeding expensive Friesans, running the place in every way. He died suddenly, and had children from a previous marriage who showed up one day and laid claim to the whole place. The lady tried to keep the place, saying the deceased had promised her she would have everything upon his death. But he didn't write it down. So guess what, the kids got everything and the lady had to walk away with nothing. She did manage to take some of her personal horses, but that's it.


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## AnitaAnne

Acadianartist said:


> Well, maybe it's because I come from a long line of lawyers in the family, and happen to be married to one, but even with friends, I would want things written down. You just never know... I mean, what if the person with whom you had a verbal agreement dies suddenly, and the family decides it wants the horse that was never sold on paper back? It's such a simple thing to write it down... I get that people want to trust their friends, but you have to think through all the possible scenarios. People pass away suddenly, get divorced, go bankrupt and have creditors trying to recover their money, etc. etc. etc. Why take the chance?
> 
> Case in point: my daughter used to ride at a stable full of Friesans. The owner was in a common-law relationship with the coach and BO. He was ill, and barely mobile, so she did everything. She was breeding expensive Friesans, running the place in every way. He died suddenly, and had children from a previous marriage who showed up one day and laid claim to the whole place. The lady tried to keep the place, saying the deceased had promised her she would have everything upon his death. But he didn't write it down. So guess what, the kids got everything and the lady had to walk away with nothing. She did manage to take some of her personal horses, but that's it.


That is a good example of why everyone needs a will. Also the couple should have had a paper trail of shared ownership on the Friesans. If she only got her "personal horses" then it is entirely likely that she could not prove she was part owner.

Here there are some laws regarding common law arrangements, but not sure they include property. Even legally married people can in some areas loose the property in cases of death when no will is made. Case in point many in my county the property is often deeded separate from the parcel the house sits on. In almost all cases, the property with the house is in both names, the rest of the land is only in the husbands name. That property is often divided up between children on his passing if prior to the wife, while the wife usually just gets to keep the house and the land it sits on.


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## AnitaAnne

I knew a couple who the husband came from wealthy parents. His biological father passed and a trust was set up. Then the mother remarried with no changes to the trust. 

The mother then passed and the stepfather told my friend to accept a small token (40K?) and get lost and stated the mother's will gave him everything. 

My friend was afraid to challenge, as he did not have any funds without the trust so he took the 40K +/- and started looking for a job. 

His wife has never gotten over this and bitterly rehashes the whole sad story constantly. She was supposed to be rich for life, and instead has no money except SS now her husband is also deceased.


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## beau159

I would contact a lawyer immdiately and do NOT communicate with this lady.


If she keeps harassing you, then I would have your lawyer send her a bill for a YEAR'S worth of boarding fees, vet bills, feed, hay, etc and everything else you have spent money on the horse since you bought it, since she is now claiming it is hers and wants it back. If she wants "her" horse back, then she can pay you for keeping it for her. Usually, that shuts them up. 



Sure, might cost you a little in lawyer's fees but in this case, it's the principle. I'll gladly pay a little money to put a* bully* in their place.


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## Whinnie

zombieassaultunit said:


> The horse has no distinctive markings, pretty general appearance. I was contacted by the woman I bought the horse from, she let me know about the civil suit and sent me a picture of the judgement. I then started receiving messages from people I do not know stating that the original owner won the judgement and I have 7 days to return the horse before a warrant will be issued. I am by no means stupid and have a basic knowledge of how the court system works. This was never a criminal case and she was granted payment in the amount owed for what she was selling the horse for.


I am distressed that you think I called you stupid. I was asking about who you have had contact with. And to assure you that if there was a judgement regarding the horse that was satisfied, you should not be in danger of legally losing the horse. Is it the harassment you are concerned about or is it thinking you have to give the horse back? It sounds like the original owner has NOT contacted you directly, but instead you are receiving messages (text? email? phone?) from random people. If you can trace back from where these messages are coming, you may have a criminal case against these people for stalking and harassing. In fact, law enforcement should be able to find out who/where they come from. Good luck.


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## zombieassaultunit

No, I just meant that woman threatening me seems to think I'm stupid. I didn't mean for you to think I was referring to what you said. I have had contact with the woman personally via messages, I never responded and blocked her. After that she would have other people message me for her. I'm simply worried that even though she has been paid for the horse that she will still try and take him from me somehow.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

zombieassaultunit said:


> No, I just meant that woman threatening me seems to think I'm stupid. I didn't mean for you to think I was referring to what you said. I have had contact with the woman personally via messages, I never responded and blocked her. After that she would have other people message me for her. I'm simply worried that even though she has been paid for the horse that she will still try and take him from me somehow.


Obviously that's what she's trying to do, but she's trying to intimidate you into giving him up. That's why we're all saying attorney, now. If she gets contacted by an attorney who lets her know in no uncertain terms that you are not to be messed with or there will be consequences, chances are she'll back off.


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## Avna

My experience with people like this is that they think the mere threat of legal action will scare you into doing what they want. And often, if the person being attacked is naive enough, it works. 

Most of these people, if served with a real legal notice, will back right off because their bluff was called. As long as you try to hide from them and hope they go away, they'll keep it up, because they figure you have no response and their bullying is going to pay off for them.

Oh, and yes she does think you're stupid. Has she been proved wrong yet?


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## AnitaAnne

As I stated earlier, I believe you can approach this from two different ways. 

One, you contact an attorney and review the details of the case with him/her. Pay for the attorney to draft a letter for you threatening legal action for any further harassment. Even one phone call is considered harassment here if it is unwanted and hostile. 

Two, you spread a falsehood. Let it be known through social media that you don't have this crazy lady's horse. Sold it to an auction for $100 months ago. Pretend you have a different horse, give it a different name ("Sam"), age ("15yrs"), and past ("driving horse"). Sort of like a witness protection program for people, but do it for your horse. Make up a bill of sale for this horse "Sam" to prove your claim.


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## Cedar & Salty

Uninformed people are likely to make legal threats that are not even possible to carry out. We had some soundness issues on a horse we purchased that was guarantee sound. 

It was a convoluted, complex situation. The sellers agreed to give us a replacement horse but he came off the trailer sick and in terrible condition. Many, many well meaning horse people in our circle were telling us to sue the sellers, demand our money back, and pursue punitive damages. 

We finally paid to discuss our case with an experienced equine attorney, who gave us solid advice and options. Most people were very off-base about what was legally possible. Meeting with an attorney allowed us to be at peace with our decisions and resolution, and move on. It also allowed us to stop all the unsolicited advice from horse people not involved. It wasn't cheap, but it was money well spent.


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## LoriF

zombieassaultunit said:


> The woman claiming the horse was stolen had no papers. The woman I bought him from had no papers either. The original woman also stated herself that there was no written sales agreement, that it was a verbal contract and that she was given payment and returned it demanding the horse. I feel like in that case she broke her own verbal agreement voiding her claim. But she was still awarded payment for the horse in a civil suit. It was never a criminal case.


This right here tells me that in the courts eyes, they didn't consider the horse stolen. Verbal agreements are just as legal as written ones. The only difference is verbal agreements are harder to prove if someone decides to lie and change the whole story. This woman said herself that she sent the payment back and wanted the horse back. This is something that you are not entitled to do. Horses are considered property. I can't sell you my truck, wait for you to supe it up and then refuse your payment and demand the truck back. It just doesn't happen that way. 

You have lots of proof that shows that the court already resolved this issue with the first woman and the woman that you bought the horse from. I personally would hire legal help to get this woman off of my back and put it through the grapevine that you don't even own the horse anymore so he doesn't just disappear. I would do both.

I would be a little peeved at the woman who sold the horse to you for putting your name into this problem in the first place. I'm sure it was just her being naive about the whole thing, but still. People just don't know how to be quiet when they need to be.


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## Acadianartist

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Obviously that's what she's trying to do, but she's trying to intimidate you into giving him up. That's why we're all saying attorney, now. If she gets contacted by an attorney who lets her know in no uncertain terms that you are not to be messed with or there will be consequences, chances are she'll back off.


This. By having an attorney write her a letter spelling all this out, you are covering your butt if the horse does happen to go missing. The whole thing is then out in the open, and she'll be the first suspect. However, it's most likely she will realize you have called her bluff, and she'll leave you alone. And if she doesn't, you have a clear paper trail stating all the facts.


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## beau159

zombieassaultunit said:


> I'm simply worried that even though she has been paid for the horse that she will still try and take him from me somehow.





From what you have told us, she should have ZERO legal grounds to take the horse from you.


If you want her harrassment to stop, again, this is where I would have an attorney or lawyer send her a letter to "call her bluff" and shut her up. She's a bully looking to take advantage of you.


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## zombieassaultunit

*update*

I now have a copy of the judgement between the two women that reads
Judgement is awarded in favor of the plaintiff and against the defendant in the amount of $1500 plus cost of court, or in the alternative, for the return of the horse. 
Now the defendant hasn't had the horse since selling to me last August and from what I've been told she can't choose to take the horse over the awarded money. However she showed up at my house waiving a folder around stating she had a court order that I had to take her to the horse, I called the police but they just told her to leave. She is now saying she is going to take me to court and sue me for the horse? I have been trying to contact a lawyer but haven't had much luck finding one that specializes in equine law.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

You won't need one that specializes in equine law. Livestock is livestock. A horse is the same as a cow, a goat, or a car in the eyes of the Court.

She has an order to get $1500 OR the horse from the Defendant. You are not the Defendant. The Defendant no longer owns the horse, so the Defendant needs to cough up $1500.00.

I would tell her to sue you. This would fall under a small claims case in Oklahoma. I don't know what state you are in. Once you got served with a petition and an order for a hearing, you would then have x amount of days to respond by filing an 'answer' and a counterclaim with the court clerk. And then I would file an answer with the Court and a counterclaim for the cost of feed, 'storage', medical bills, and I would pad them out the wazoo and blind her with copies of receipts so they add up to more than the horse is worth and then demand that she pay you.

PS. I work for an attorney, I've done this for 20 years.

What state are you located in? State law varies state by state.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

P.S. the reason you may be having trouble getting an attorney to call you back is because this is really small potatoes to most attorneys. 



I'd also tell her not only go ahead and sue you - call her bluff - but I'd also contact the district attorney's office or the sheriff's office, or the police, whoever has jurisdiction in your area, and ask to file harassment charges and possibly trespassing charges.


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## zombieassaultunit

I'm located in Florida, the police weren't much help to begin with but maybe if I go to the sheriff's office I'll get a different response. This woman lives in Alabama however.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

I'd just call her bluff then and tell her to get it done.


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## Cedar & Salty

The attorney we spoke with told me that he would not litigate (file and represent in a civil court case) for less than $10,000 damages. It's not worth it financially. 

He thought we were owed $1800 in damages, but after paying him a $400 consultation fee, and $1000 retainer to send a letter to the sellers, we decided it wasn't worth it. 

In your case, keep every bit of documentation about your sale. Stop communicating with either of these people right now. Move on as if you are the legal owner of the horse. Wait to be served a summons for a civil suit in small claims court. If they file a suit, take your documentation, tell your story in court, and comply with the judge's decision. 

You haven't broken the law, you haven't been sued yet. Individuals do not serve court summons. STOP communicating with either party immediately and wait for legal action to actually occur. Don't continue living under the shadow of threats. Just enjoy your horse for now.


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## 4horses

I would block this person from contacting you unless through certified mail. If she wants to sue, wait for her to notify you of that. Right now, it sounds like she is blowing smoke and trying to bully you.

I had someone on Craigslist contact me that the saddle i was selling had been stolen. Of course the person couldn't prove that nor do i believe a police report was ever filed. Just another scam artist looking for a payout. I know who i bought the saddle from so i doubt there was any truth to the claim - and no police showed up looking for stolen tack either! 

You are an innocent third party and this does not involve you.


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## zombieassaultunit

I've had her blocked from everything for a year. But she managed to somehow get my address. I've never had any contact with that woman personally. She has now taken to posting my photos on social media asking people to tell her where the horse is. Still haven't had any luck with police.


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## PoptartShop

Thanks for the update, but I really hope she leaves you alone. Not cool, her posting your photos. :sad: 

I hope you can find an attorney.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

zombieassaultunit said:


> I've had her blocked from everything for a year. But she managed to somehow get my address. I've never had any contact with that woman personally. She has now taken to posting my photos on social media asking people to tell her where the horse is. Still haven't had any luck with police.


Unless there is an actual theft report on file with the police, they're going to treat this as a civil matter (which they should) and they will not get involved. If she continues harassing you, you can go to court and request a restraining order. Otherwise, just stay away from her, keep your horse where she doesn't know where it is, and just keep an eye on her. If she shows up at your house, call the police and have her removed. Do that a few times and get a restraining order and you've laid the groundwork for her to eventually go to jail. In the meantime, just gather up all your bills, board costs, vet fees, farrier fees and training or feed bills, anything that shows you've had this horse for some time and proves your ownership. Keep it all in a file and then if she does get silly and try to file in court, you can go in and shut her down. Keep a copy of the judgement showing where she was paid for this horse (or where the judge ordered her to be paid) and just sit tight and ignore her.


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## KigerQueen

update?


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## Persephone2015

Please, please do not take the advice given on this thread that advocates trying to change the identity of the horse. Or lie about the location, spread falsehoods of you selling it, etc. This is exactly what horse thiefs do, and if this were to ever go to court you do not want to appear as anything but an upright, honest horse owner. As soon as you start lying yourself, you take away any credibility you may have. 

From the last updates, it seems this is likely settled as a non-criminal issue. I would, however, take screenshots of anything she posts online regarding wanting to find your horse in order to keep a record. With enough evidence like that, you should be able to get a restraining order as well. That way if she does come onto your property or tries to take the horse you are covered legally.


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## waresbear

If she won the purchase price for a horse in civil court, don't worry about it she cannot double dip. You cannot get the money for horse and the horse, you come out ahead that way. She's already got her decision, case closed, you only get one bite at the apple. She got made whole by getting awarded the money she was owed for the price of the horse, she does not get the horse back especially since it has changed hands yet again.


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## ToVictory

zombieassaultunit said:


> I purchased an OTTB over a year ago from a woman who had purchased the horse a month earlier on a verbal agreement from someone out of state. Several months after I had purchased the horse this earlier owner comes out stating the horse was stolen. Several weeks go by and we discover the horse was not stolen, that she allowed the woman to take him on a payment plan and later returned a check and demanded the horse back. I had the horse at this point, fast forward a year and she has won the price of the horse from the person I bought the horse from in a civil suit. The woman who claimed he was stolen and won the money she was owed is now threatening me with arrest stating that I have committed a felony and I have 7 days to hand the horse over to her. This was never a criminal case and she already won the amount she was owed and I have owned the horse for over a year. Should I contact a lawyer?


The minute you heard anything about a _verbal agreement_ between person A & person B involving a _payment plan_ you should have turned around, gotten back in your car, driven off & never returned. 

Why? 

Because until the _payment plan is *completed in full*_ the person who sold you the horse technically _*didn't*_ own it. It's the exact same reason why banks can foreclose on a mortgage & evict the mortgagee because ultimately the people _*don't*_ own the house the bank does. 

In essence the horse was entrusted to the care of the person who sold you the animal as long as they paid the bill. 



zombieassaultunit said:


> The woman claiming the horse was stolen had no papers. The woman I bought him from had no papers either. The original woman also stated herself that there was no written sales agreement, that it was a verbal contract and that she was given payment and returned it demanding the horse. I feel like in that case she broke her own verbal agreement voiding her claim. But she was still awarded payment for the horse in a civil suit. It was never a criminal case.


You can't say she broke anything because you do _*not*_ know the conditions of the contract. And that's what many people don't realize. A verbal agreement _is_ a form of contract between two people expectant of upholding their side of an agreement. If anyone broke their side of the contract it's the person who sold you the horse; hence why they lost the lawsuit because if the initial seller broke her side of the contract she wouldn't get a penny. 

But let's put it in perspective. 

Leasing an apartment the actual owner can terminate (termination clauses; smoking in a non-smoking building) payment/contract if they find that the renter (that's exactly what this person was who sold you the horse was doing; they were renting to own) isn't holding up part of the contract agreed upon. 

And like an apartment owner the horse's owner was well within their rights to expect the rented item (the horse) returned as it was found (apartments refund last and/or first month as long as an apartment isn't trashed because returning the unit as found is part of the agreement between apartment owner & renter). 





zombieassaultunit said:


> I have coggins, vet bills, feed bills, microchip, bill of sale. The horse was in poor condition when I got him, even having to have surgery due to an injury the vet said was at least a year old, which puts it when he was in the care of the woman stating he was stolen. He had also never had his teeth done which had caused horrible abscesses and severe weight loss. It took me a lot of time and money to get him healthy again.


So? People take mortgages on run down houses that they do repairs on all the time. Doesn't mean anything to the bank if they don't pay the bills owing and thus have no right to claim they own the house. 

You could potentially use such if you took the initial owner up on animal abandonment/cruelty charges but then you'd have to _*prove*_ that the horse was actually in the initial owner's care at that time. For all you know the animal was actually being stored at the farm/facility of the person who sold you the animal & the initial owner visited once a month hence why the seller sought to "own" it themselves.




zombieassaultunit said:


> I now have a copy of the judgement between the two women that reads
> Judgement is awarded in favor of the plaintiff and against the defendant in the amount of $1500 plus cost of court, or in the alternative, for the return of the horse.
> Now the defendant hasn't had the horse since selling to me last August and from what I've been told she can't choose to take the horse over the awarded money. However she showed up at my house waiving a folder around stating she had a court order that I had to take her to the horse, I called the police but they just told her to leave. She is now saying she is going to take me to court and sue me for the horse? I have been trying to contact a lawyer but haven't had much luck finding one that specializes in equine law.


Of course it was awarded in favour of the plaintiff for the reasons why I said above. 

The person who sold you the horse _*did not*_ own it & thus had no right to sell it without a) agreement of sale by the rightful [who once again wasn't the person who sold you the horse] owner and/or b) paying the owing balance to the initial owner (just like a mortgage).

Ultimately, without knowing everything, by the sounds of it the person who sold you the horse was trying to pull a fast one (scam) on the initial seller by selling it to you & not paying the difference owing. And in a round about way the initial owner would be right in saying you bought a stolen horse because, as said above, the person who sold you the horse _*didn't*_ technically own it. Hence why the initial owner won their lawsuit. It's just as how if someone sold a house & didn't pay the owing difference on the mortgage to a bank they'd _*also*_ be sweating their way through a court hearing.



Finally you maybe safe if the person who sold you the horse can pay the $1,500 owing. Obviously the initial owner doubts they can make the payment (if they could have paid the $1,500 there _wouldn't_ have been a payment plan & you _wouldn't_ be in this mess to start with) hence why she is coming after you in pursuit of the horse itself. She's *not* "crazy" & she's *not* "double dipping" the initial owner is likely looking at it like this > I likely won't get the money so I want my horse (which, as I have said a few times, the renter who sold it to you had no right to sell) back.


You *are* going to need a lawyer there's no denying that. Because you *are* in a mess & seriously no offense but you put yourself into it by buying this horse (like I said the minute you heard anything about a payment plan & verbal agreement you should have turned around & never gone back). In the mean time don't sell the horse & don't hide it as another animal unless you wanna dig yourself an even bigger hole.


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## ToVictory

The minute you heard anything about a _verbal agreement_ between person A & person B involving a _payment plan_ you should left & never returned. 

Why? 

Because until the payment plan is paid in full the person who sold you the horse did *NOT* own it. They were, in essence, renting to buy the animal. It's the exact same reason why banks can foreclose on a mortgage because ultimately the mortgagee does *not* own the house, the bank does. 

The person who sold you the horse "owned" the animal as long as they paid the bill. Nothing more. Depending on how far into the payment plan they were they may have rightfully owned a hoof. So it's no surprise whatsoever they lost the lawsuit. 


As for the initial owner returning the cheque. It's a lease. Like an apartment the actual owner has all right to terminate a contract if they find the renter failing to uphold their part of the deal. Upon return of payment the rented item (the horse) is expected to be returned as found (apartments refund last and/or first month as long as an apartment isn't wreaked because returning the unit as found is part of the agreement between apartment owner & renter). 



Ultimately, without knowing everything, by the sounds of it the person who sold you the horse was trying scam the initial seller by selling it to you & not paying the difference owing. So for you the outcome be down to the person who sold the horse to you. Not the initial owner. The sellers _*have to*_ pay that owing $1,500 (per your claim of the lawsuit) to have the _*right*_ to sell the animal. A right they never had to start with. 

The initial owner isn't crazy & they're not double dipping. They want what is rightfully theirs (either money or horse) & they're after the horse because they likely believe they'll never see the money (hence the payment plan). 


You are gonna need a lawyer because you put yourself into this mess. In the mean time don't even entertain the idea of selling the horse, hiding the horse, or claiming it died, etc.


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## zombieassaultunit

Had you read what I stated earlier, I did not "hear" verbal agreement upon my purchase of the horse, it came up months later. And as far as her winning her lawsuit she won because the other party did not show up. And, again, she was offered payment for the horse however was trying to sell the horse to someone else for double the price. I have spoken with a lawyer and a judge. At this point I have a case against the original owner for several different things
But thank you all for your input.


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