# Sun bleaching in black tails...is it genetic?



## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

My buckskin mare always gets super sun bleached orange fried streaks in her tail. But another horse in the barn who is a bay has a jet black tail that never bleaches out even though they both get the same amount of turnout every day in the sun! 

I always thought that buckskin was just a bay with the cream gene so why would my horse's tail bleach so much more? Could the fact that my mare's sire is a chestnut have anything to do with it? Just curious and looking to learn something new I guess! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Do you use a lot of fly spray on her? That bleaches a lot. 

It might be some affect of cream because my mare's tail is bright orange at the end and is much ligher black on everything that exposed to the sun (down underneath, it's a really dark blue-black). 










That was from a couple months ago, so her tail has gotten worse. No worries for me, because we don't have to look presentable for anything. However, I know you show, so you could dye it if you wanted.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Oh I have dyed it twice this summer already :lol: 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-grooming/dyeing-horses-tail-130184/page3/#post1599798
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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

"My" buckskin (now my mother's) has about 5 different colours in her tail! Black, of course, but also white, gold, red and cream. I was advised not to dye her tail, because all the different colours in it are supposedly sought-after... I guess because you can't put a false tail in and have it look natural? Hers is REALLY thick and because of all the different colours nobody can question that it's natural.

Sunbleaching, on the other hand, I haven't really experienced all that much. My bay's mane bleaches a bit, but not his tail so much. And my chestnut's mane/tail are really cool, she's got some sort of sooty/flaxen combination going on where she's got everything from nearly white to nearly black in her mane... and her tail is nearly black in the middle, but bright red chestnut at the top and bottom.


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## minstrel (Mar 20, 2012)

My bay's forelock bleaches at the ends, but none of the rest of his mane does - it's really weird. However, his forelock is a bit drier, frizzier and generally not as god quality hair as the rest of his mane... that could be why I guess.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Yeah, well THIS is what my mare's poor black tail looks like mid-summer! In winter, it looks like the bay's BLACK tail that is standing next to her...









When I dyed it, THIS is what it looked like  Doesn't last long though!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Could try a tailbag or tail saver? Tail savers are strips of fabric that you braid into the horse's tail to keep it clean and tangle-free, and to keep the sun off. Tail bags aren't as effective but they go from the very top of the tail down, whereas a tail saver has to be put on below the dock or else it runs the risk of cutting off the circulation, especially if they get it caught.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> Could try a tailbag or tail saver? Tail savers are strips of fabric that you braid into the horse's tail to keep it clean and tangle-free, and to keep the sun off. Tail bags aren't as effective but they go from the very top of the tail down, whereas a tail saver has to be put on below the dock or else it runs the risk of cutting off the circulation, especially if they get it caught.


Yeah I have tried doing those strips of material, it looked super cool BUT then the hair above the bottom of the dock that hadn't been braided in became a giant ball of tangled matted MESS after a couple of days of her swishing at the flies :shock: So that was a no-go. I have a long tail bag that can be velcroed through the top of the braid so that she still has a long tail-like item to swat at flies with, but it doesn't cover the top part where most of the sun bleaching occurs. 

Are there long tail bags that tie somehow into the very top of the tail? I want her to still have something to swat flies with, since she does get turned out all day...and I would rather deal with an orange tail and give her turnout all day versus keeping her penned up for the sake of beauty...because above all, she works hard for me and needs her "horsey time"!


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Here was the cool looking tail saver I did once ;-)


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Does she wear a rug? You can get tail bags that velcro into the rug. Usually cotton ones, for use with cotton rugs, but I use a cotton underneath my winter rugs so it doesn't really matter... you can also get canvas ones, but I haven't found a waterproof rug yet that came with the velcro attachment already on it.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

No, she'd be too hot...she gets sweaty really easily so I can't even have her in a fly sheet, she would be so sweaty! And with the summer we've been having so far, this heat has been unusually BRUTAL here!!! Ohio normally has averages in the low-mid 80's in the summer, with a day here or there that reaches into the low 90's. But THIS year, it's been constant 90's and NO rain, we're having serious drought issues!!!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Hmm, and sweat bleaches them worse than sunlight... my gelding's coat goes rank if he gets too hot in summer.

Unfortunately I can't think of anything to prevent the bleaching other than stabling her, which you've already said you don't want to do. Seems to me you'll just have to keep dyeing it, or else learn to love the orange.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Yeah that was the plan ;-) I was just interested in the cause of the sun bleaching in my buckskin mare that does NOT occur with some other horses (there's a tri color Paint with a black tail at the barn whose tail stays JET black, along with all the bays!)

They are all turned out as much as my girl, and yet their tails stay very black. So I was interested to see what would cause that...I have even known other buckskins this did NOT happen to. Which is why I was wondering if her chestnut sire's genetic influence could cause that?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Maaaayyyybeee... but I think it's the same thing that causes fading blacks and non-fading blacks. Some horses just bleach more than others.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Well that's boring! ;-)


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Yeah that was the plan ;-) I was just interested in the cause of the sun bleaching in my buckskin mare that does NOT occur with some other horses (there's a tri color Paint with a black tail at the barn whose tail stays JET black, along with all the bays!)
> 
> They are all turned out as much as my girl, and yet their tails stay very black. So I was interested to see what would cause that...I have even known other buckskins this did NOT happen to. Which is why I was wondering if her chestnut sire's genetic influence could cause that?


Highly doubt it. And that "tri-color" probably doesn't fade because it's bay like the rest of the bays. It just has a white pattern with it.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

lol it is isn't it! But I bet there's some gene that causes some horses to fade more than others, and it would be awesome if we could breed away from it and have fewer faded blacks about. And less bleaching in our bays and buckskins.

edit; and chestnuts... my chestnut's coat is feral at the moment, all orange from the bleaching D: (she is shedding through darker, and I'm hoping I can darken her some more)


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Ok I know this thread of mine is old, but I'm still interested in it and no one really knew the answer for certain! Soooo now it's one summer later and her tail is bleaching again as usual...and there is another buckskin at our barn who goes out the exact same amount of time, uses the same amount of fly spray, and doesn't wear a sheet either, so same thing with both her buckskin and mine. But hers has a jet black tail with NO sun bleaching whatsoever in it, while mine looks like this...


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Urine also bleaches the tail out. When they urinate and swat flies at the same time - urine gets everywhere. I have a black and a red dun with black tails. I rinse the tails after a workout when I rinse the sweat off.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

mls said:


> Urine also bleaches the tail out. When they urinate and swat flies at the same time - urine gets everywhere. I have a black and a red dun with black tails. I rinse the tails after a workout when I rinse the sweat off.


I thought about that too, because she is a mare and my friend's buckskin is a gelding so maybe it's in the way they urinate?? However, I noticed her forelock and mane, although not as bad as her tail, bleach a bit too and his don't at all. And most of her bleaching is on top of the tail and where she pees on it (the underside) it's still jet black. So I'm pretty certain it's the sun doing it...I just don't know why my buckskin would bleach so badly and the other buckskin doesn't at all! :-| **scratches head**:think:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It boils down to genetics, and unfortunately at this time the genetic reason for sunfading is not known.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

My bay didn't have a problem with 'sun bleaching' until we came to the US - we don't get as much really bright sun in the UK
None of my others are affected though
There a link between copper deficiency and sun bleaching?
Balanced Equine Nutrition - Link between minerals and coat bleaching
Could this affect only certain horses in a group that all graze together?


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

jaydee said:


> My bay didn't have a problem with 'sun bleaching' until we came to the US - we don't get as much really bright sun in the UK
> None of my others are affected though
> There a link between copper deficiency and sun bleaching?
> Balanced Equine Nutrition - Link between minerals and coat bleaching
> Could this affect only certain horses in a group that all graze together?


Interesting, thanks for the article! And I finally just caved and dyed it! :lol: Looks much better now though!


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

jaydee said:


> My bay didn't have a problem with 'sun bleaching' until we came to the US - we don't get as much really bright sun in the UK
> None of my others are affected though
> There a link between copper deficiency and sun bleaching?
> Balanced Equine Nutrition - Link between minerals and coat bleaching
> Could this affect only certain horses in a group that all graze together?


So jaydee, any recommendations on a supplement that might fill in some of the potential gaps in minerals? I already ordered SmartDark and Handsome (I thought I ordered Black as Knight because I searched for it and this product was the only one that came up, seems to be their version of it), which says it contains these:

IngredientPer ServingPer PoundGuaranteed Analysis per 30 gCrude Protein (Min)9%L-Lysine8%Crude Fat (Min)16%Omega 3 Fatty Acids 1450 mgSupplying:EPA90 mgDHA60 mgOmega 6 Fatty Acids 1340 mgCrude Fiber (Max)13%Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)100 mgFolic Acid62 mgBiotin5 mgCopper35 mgManganese60 mgZinc65 mg
*Other Ingredients*

Ingredient Statement: Biotin, Chia Seed (ground), Copper Polysaccharide Complex, Fenugreek Seed Powder, Fish Oil, Folic Acid, Dried Kelp, L-Lysine, Lecithin, Manganese Polysaccharide Complex, Mixed Tocopherols (natural preservative), Natural Flavors, Nutmeg (ground), Paprika, Riboflavin, Soybean Oil (cold pressed), Stabilized Flax Seed Meal, Stabilized Rice Bran, Zinc Polysaccharide Complex


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> So jaydee, any recommendations on a supplement that might fill in some of the potential gaps in minerals? I already ordered SmartDark and Handsome (I thought I ordered Black as Knight because I searched for it and this product was the only one that came up, seems to be their version of it), which says it contains these:
> 
> IngredientPer ServingPer PoundGuaranteed Analysis per 30 gCrude Protein (Min)9%L-Lysine8%Crude Fat (Min)16%Omega 3 Fatty Acids 1450 mgSupplying:EPA90 mgDHA60 mgOmega 6 Fatty Acids 1340 mgCrude Fiber (Max)13%Riboflavin (Vitamin B2)100 mgFolic Acid62 mgBiotin5 mgCopper35 mgManganese60 mgZinc65 mg
> *Other Ingredients*
> ...


 I'd looked at those products after I found the link with copper deficiency but was concerned that I was already feeding those vitamins and minerals in with the complete feed I use - she gets a mix of Sentinel Senior, Triple Crown safe starch forage and TC low starch pellets so I was worried about overloading her with something that might cause problems (plus spending money on a whole load of ingredients I didn't need).
If it was my land that was copper deficient then I'd expect to see the same bleaching in the other horses but some humans can have deficiencies even on well balanced diets so maybe horses are the same
Too much iron in the diet can cause copper and zinc imbalance - also related to ground you are on
That would also cause poor hooves which she doesn't have
I will maybe get a soil analysis done
I started looking for a straight copper supplement but not getting any results that I felt comfortable with in terms of ordering on line
Horses with Copper Deficiency


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Hmm good point...she is on a mix of these 2 grains at the barn where I board - I think 1/2 and 1/2...

Essential K® Horse Supplement


*GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: *
Crude Protein (Min.) ...................................................................28.0% 
Lysine (Min.) ................................................................................2.2% 
Methionine (Min.).........................................................................0.6% 
Methionine & Cystine (Min.) ........................................................1.0% 
Threonine (Min.)...........................................................................1.2% 
Crude Fat (Min.) ...........................................................................6.0% 
Crude Fiber (Max.)........................................................................5.0% 
Calcium (Ca) (Min.)......................................................................2.5% 
Calcium (Ca) (Max.) .....................................................................3.5% 
Phosphorus (P) (Min.) ...................................................................1.5% 
Copper (Cu) (Min.) .................................................................200 ppm 
Zinc (Zn) (Min.)......................................................................400 ppm 
Selenium (Se) (Min.)................................................................1.5 ppm 
Potassium (K) (Min.).....................................................................1.5% 
Magnesium (Mg) (Min.)................................................................0.4% 
Manganese (Mn) (Min.) ..........................................................240 ppm 
Cobalt (Co) (Min.) ......................................................................4 ppm 
Iron (Fe) (Min.).......................................................................900 ppm 
Iodine (I) (Min.) ..........................................................................4 ppm 
Salt (NaCl) (Min.) .........................................................................1.0% 
Salt (NaCl) (Max.) ........................................................................1.5% 
Vitamin A (Min.) .............................................................30,000 IU/lb. 
Vitamin D (Min.) ...............................................................2,500 IU/lb. 
Vitamin E (Min.)...................................................................500 IU/lb. 
Vitamin C (Min.)....................................................................80 mg/lb. 
Biotin (Min.) .........................................................................2.4 mg/lb. 
Thiamine (Min.).....................................................................30 mg/lb. 
Riboflavin (Min.) ..................................................................8.5 mg/lb. 
Omega 6 Fatty Acids (Min.)..........................................................3.0% 
Omega 3Fatty Acids (Min.)...........................................................0.4% 

Kalm 

*GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: *
Crude Protein (Min.)....................................................... 14.0% 
Lysine (Min.).................................................................. 0.75% 
Methionine (Min.) .......................................................... 0.22% 
Methionine & Cystine (Min.).......................................... 0.50% 
Threonine (Min.) ............................................................ 0.50% 
Crude Fat (Min.)............................................................... 8.0% 
Crude Fiber (Max.)......................................................... 20.0% 
Calcium (Ca) (Min.) ......................................................... 0.8% 
Calcium (Ca) (Max.)......................................................... 1.3% 
Phosphorus (P) (Min.) .................................................... 0.60% 
Copper (Cu) (Min.)....................................................... 65 ppm 
Zinc (Zn) (Min.) ..........................................................200 ppm 
Selenium (Se) (Min.) ....................................................0.6 ppm 
Potassium (K) (Min.)........................................................ 1.0% 
Magnesium (Mg) (Min.)................................................. 0.35% 
Manganese (Mn) (Min.)...............................................160 ppm 
Cobalt (Co) (Min.)........................................................1.3 ppm 
Iron (Fe) (Min.) ...........................................................440 ppm 
Iodine (I) (Min.)............................................................1.1 ppm 
Salt (NaCl) (Min.)............................................................. 0.5% 
Salt (NaCl) (Max.)............................................................ 1.0% 
Vitamin A (Min.)................................................... 5,500 IU/lb. 
Vitamin D (Min.)...................................................... 500 IU/lb. 
Vitamin E (Min.) ...................................................... 200 IU/lb. 
Vitamin C (Min.) ....................................................... 25 mg/lb. 
Biotin (Min.)............................................................. 0.7 mg/lb. 
Thiamine (Min.) ....................................................... 8.5 mg/lb. 
Riboflavin (Min.)...................................................... 4.5 mg/lb. 
Omega 6 Fatty Acids (Min.) ............................................. 2.8% 
Omega 3 Fatty Acids (Min.) ............................................. 0.3%


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

I just sent a note to my trainer/barn manager asking how much of each feed Sandie eats per day, so that I can figure out exactly how much of each mineral she's already getting. 

She also gets 5-6 flakes of good quality Timothy/Orchard mix hay per day and goes out on grass pasture for 1-2 hours per day as well.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Scratch that, he just got back to me and she's on 4 1/2 lbs/day of Tribute Right Choice 14% pelleted feed...

​*GUARANTEED ANALYSIS: 
*Crude Protein (Min.).................................................. 14.0% 
Lysine (Min.)............................................................... 0.8% 
Methionine (Min.) ....................................................... 0.3% 
Methionine & Cystine (Min.) ...................................... 0.5% 
Threonine (Min.) ......................................................... 0.5% 
Crude Fat (Min.).......................................................... 7.0% 
Crude Fiber (Max.) .................................................... 18.0% 
Calcium (Ca) (Min.) .................................................... 0.7% 
Calcium (Ca) (Max.).................................................... 1.2% 
Phosphorus (P) (Min.) ................................................. 0.6% 
Copper (Cu) (Min.).................................................. 50 ppm 
Zinc (Zn) (Min.) .................................................... 160 ppm 
Selenium (Se) (Min.) .............................................. 0.6 ppm 
Potassium (K) (Min.)................................................... 0.7% 
Magnesium (Mg) (Min.).............................................. 0.2% 
Manganese (Mn) (Min.)......................................... 100 ppm 
Cobalt (Co) (Min.).................................................. 3.5 ppm 
Iron (Fe) (Min.) ..................................................... 200 ppm 
Iodine (I) (Min.)...................................................... 1.1 ppm 
Salt (NaCl) (Min.)........................................................ 0.5% 
Salt (NaCl) (Max.)....................................................... 1.0% 
Vitamin A (Min.).............................................. 3,500 IU/lb. 
Vitamin D (Min.)................................................. 350 IU/lb. 
Vitamin E (Min.) ................................................. 100 IU/lb. 
Vitamin C (Min.) .................................................. 12 mg/lb. 
Biotin (Min.)....................................................... 0. 5 mg/lb. 
Thiamine (Min.) ..................................................... 5 mg/lb. 
Riboflavin (Min.).................................................... 4 mg/lb. 
Omega 6 Fatty Acids (Min.) ........................................ 1.7% 
Omega 3 Fatty Acids (Min.) ........................................ 0.2% 
Lactobacillus acidophilus (Min.).............. 113.5 milCFU/lb 
Lactobacillus casei (Min.) ........................ 113.5 milCFU/lb 
Bifidobacterium thermophilum (Min.) ...... 113.5milCFU/lb 
Enteroococcus faecium (Min.) ................. 113.5 milCFU/lb


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

So if she gets 4 1/2 lbs of this feed per day (if I am doing the conversion correctly!) she gets around 100 mg of copper per day and 325 mg of zinc per day? That seems awful high, when the websites I found recommended that a 1,300 lb horse (which she is NOT, she's more like 800-900, she is only 14.2hh) should get 60-90 mg of copper per day and only 40 mg/kg of zinc. 

Then in addition, I read that higher zinc:copper ratios can cause problems...and this feed has a 160mg:50mg zinc:copper ratio, so that doesn't sound good? But why would they make a feed like that if it wasn't a good idea? Hmm, this opens up a whole new book of nutritional research for me! :lol:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't have time to go through the maths on that - whats the recommended daily feeding amount for that product?
It always worries me that its so easy to over feed these mineral and vitamins - a lot wont hurt as they just get excreted but some can be harmful or upset the balance which could be whats happening.
You should probably go through it all and make a table of exactly how much is coming from the feed in terms of minerals and vitamins because some will also come naturally from the hay and grass.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

You can't tell if your horse's mineral ratios are balanced just from the hard feed- they eat way more hay/grass than anything else, so unless you know if those minerals are balanced in the forage, it's impossible to say if a hard feed is providing too much or too little of anything, especially in relation to other minerals.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Ok this is starting to feel like an impossible task! :lol: I know our barn manager has the hay tested, so he probably has that info...not sure about the grass/soil, will have to check with him on that.


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## Rcatheron (May 21, 2012)

*Re: Sunbleached Mane and Tail*

I have two horses with black manes and tails, and they used to bleach out to a rusty orange every summer. Ever since I switched from pelleted feed over to the Natural Vet's "Feed for Success" supplements (added to one cup of whole oats), they don't bleach out anymore. It's been four years, and their manes and tails are black as night. They're outside 24/7 with just a run-in, and they no longer get sunburned noses, either!


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## EnduranceLover6 (Jul 4, 2012)

Kind of irrelevant to your buckskin, but how do you think I feel with my black mare (left) looking like this!?! lol:lol:









Sweat, water, fly spry are all enough to bleach a dark coat, mane, or tail. My mare sweats a ton during hard workouts and I also spray her down after each ride so the sweat & water combo has taken a toll on her coat this year. I wouldn't doubt that maybe that could be a factor for your mare, as well at the urine. I think genetics also play a big part in color and fading. I see many black horses that don't change or fade at all, while others are barely recognizable in the summer months.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Rcatheron said:


> I have two horses with black manes and tails, and they used to bleach out to a rusty orange every summer. Ever since I switched from pelleted feed over to the Natural Vet's "Feed for Success" supplements (added to one cup of whole oats), they don't bleach out anymore. It's been four years, and their manes and tails are black as night. They're outside 24/7 with just a run-in, and they no longer get sunburned noses, either!


Interesting! What's in the "Feed for Success" supplements?


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

EnduranceLover6 said:


> Kind of irrelevant to your buckskin, but how do you think I feel with my black mare (left) looking like this!?! lol:lol:
> 
> View attachment 238001
> 
> ...


OH MY! :shock: You mean that's not a chestnut?? :wink:


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## Orlov Girl (Sep 14, 2012)

*Fading Black*

In my genetics book "Equine Genetics & Selection Procedures" (Equine Research publications, 1978) they talk about black vs. a fading black being genetic. Our first Orlov Trotter was a black, (so we have a real affection for the blacks of this breed). He used to become "bay" in the summer, especially if he sweated up a lot, and would have a red cast to his coat, mane and tail. However, our black Orlov mare does not fade, so I'm not sure if this trait follows certain bloodlines or not. Sometimes ammonia can affect color, especially in combination with sunshine...?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

As of right now there is no known genetic difference between non fading and fading black horses. Both are EE or E_.


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## Orlov Girl (Sep 14, 2012)

*Non fading black...*

My genetics book designates the non-fading black as genotype: B E D and fading black genotype: aaB, Ee, or aaB EE. So not the same.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Your genetics book is also *extremely *out of date. 

According to _current_ genetic research there is nodifference between fading and non fading.


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