# Is riding western harder on a horses back



## kaimanawas (Apr 16, 2015)

just interested with different opinions as to whether riding western is harder on a horse than english


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No, esp if the rider is riding correctly. In fact, a western saddle will spread the rider's weight over a larger area
Just because you ride with a western saddle, does not mean you can't post, when covering ground, long trotting


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## jenkat86 (May 20, 2014)

Agree with @smilie. A good fitting western saddle,while often much heavier, distributes pressure and weight very nicely. 

However, I think it can be much more difficult to find a proper fitting western saddle, vs English.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Very loaded question. The best I can do is say it depends a lot on what exactly the horse is specializing in.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I've never ridden English, but I feel that the key is in saddle fit. A poorly fitting saddle of any kind can cause all kinds of trouble. I've had horses that refused to ride bareback and would rather have a big heavy saddle to distribute the weight.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

No. Just no.

Anyone in any style can ride an ill-fitting saddle, or ride badly, and harm a horse. But there is nothing about western riding that makes it harder on a horse than English.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

One thing I noticed years ago when I rode with a group of riders, me being the only english rider in the group, the others riding western is that when we were coming back I would notice all or most of the other horses were quite sweaty and my horse not so much. This would happen over a few years with different riders and different horses so it was not an isolated incident.
I don't know the reason for this but the one thought that came to my mind is the main difference between the other horses and mine was the saddle being used.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

If we are talking just the saddle, then I agree it depends a lot on the saddle fit. What is supposed to happen is the weight is spread out along the entire tree. On a poor fitting saddle the tree may be bridged or pinch in spots that puts all of the weight on those points. That is the main thing to look out for that I am aware of. 

Beyond that, well it becomes a really big topic. It depends on what exactly you mean by "Western". 

Western as a very broad term with dozens of disciplines in mind is probably harder on the horse. The Performance Horse events start them too young in my opinion and the Rodeo timed events are all about asking everything that horse has every run. To be clear I like those events, but these horses don't have it easy.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Regardless of saddle and style of riding, competition horses are always at risk for being pushed beyond what their bodies can take. That is the nature of sport. I've known a lot of guys whose bodies at 40 were suffering from what they did for sport in their teens and twenties. It is harder for horses since the horse cannot easily tell you his knee is sore.

But I've met too many ranch horses who were still sound at 30, after many thousands of miles of hard riding, to believe western riding is bad for a horse.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Well fitting saddle > Saddle type.

That said, I agree with smilie. A western saddle has a larger surface area and would therefore distribute weight more evenly across a greater surface. --If we were comparing two perfectly fitting saddles, anyway


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jgnmoose said:


> Western as a very broad term with dozens of disciplines in mind is probably harder on the horse. The Performance Horse events start them too young in my opinion and the Rodeo timed events are all about asking everything that horse has every run. To be clear I like those events, but these horses don't have it easy.


I often wonder about this too. I don't compete and am very reluctant to judge other horse people doing things I know very little about. But when I see people training, doing clinics and competing in reining with their 2 and 3 year olds, I wonder how good that can be for them. Same could be said for racing young thoroughbreds, but I stopped watching racing years ago when I figured out how many horses die on the track. I think that regardless of discipline or type of saddle, anytime you work a horse too hard, too soon, it can't be good. It does seems like Western disciplines do a lot of abrupt stopping and starting, and expect the horses to turn on a dime at a very young age. Maybe it's part of the Western mindset where riders and horses are supposed to be tough and just get the job done (also why they don't wear helmets I assume - but that's a whole other can of worms). My daughter jumps, but I don't know of anyone in her group who jumps before the horse is at least 6. 

That said, I don't think the actual saddle has much to do with it, as long as it fits well. You can get lightweight Western saddles and very heavy English saddles for that matter.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Woodhaven said:


> One thing I noticed years ago when I rode with a group of riders, me being the only english rider in the group, the others riding western is that when we were coming back I would notice all or most of the other horses were quite sweaty and my horse not so much. This would happen over a few years with different riders and different horses so it was not an isolated incident.
> I don't know the reason for this but the one thought that came to my mind is the main difference between the other horses and mine was the saddle being used.


Some horses sweat more than others. When I'm running a pack string all the horses are doing the exact same thing. When we get to camp some of the saddle blankets are soaked with sweat and others are dry. My saddle horse barely sweats at all.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I've been through many saddles, both english and western. One of my mares is a total drama queen when it comes to any type of pain. I know immediately if there is something wrong with the fit of a saddle on her. I like this trait in her because it takes a lot of the guessing out of it. Her two favorite saddles that I use on her are a custom made wade style western saddle and an older, really well made, albion dressage saddle. 

I don't think that a western saddle is harder on a horse even though it is heavier. The general idea is that a western saddle distributes the weight more so possibly better. But still, a well fitting english saddle is way better than an ill fitting western. 

The best saddle that you can have is one that fits the horse perfectly and is made for the discipline that you are into so it makes riding particular maneuvers easier on the rider.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> I often wonder about this too. I don't compete and am very reluctant to judge other horse people doing things I know very little about. But when I see people training, doing clinics and competing in reining with their 2 and 3 year olds, I wonder how good that can be for them. Same could be said for racing young thoroughbreds, but I stopped watching racing years ago when I figured out how many horses die on the track. I think that regardless of discipline or type of saddle, anytime you work a horse too hard, too soon, it can't be good. It does seems like Western disciplines do a lot of abrupt stopping and starting, and expect the horses to turn on a dime at a very young age. Maybe it's part of the Western mindset where riders and horses are supposed to be tough and just get the job done (also why they don't wear helmets I assume - but that's a whole other can of worms). My daughter jumps, but I don't know of anyone in her group who jumps before the horse is at least 6.
> 
> That said, I don't think the actual saddle has much to do with it, as long as it fits well. You can get lightweight Western saddles and very heavy English saddles for that matter.


This this this. 

I have a huge western saddle that only weighs seven pounds. I have an older English saddle that weighs probably thirty pounds. I also have a roping saddle just shy of fifty pounds, and I am two hundred pounds. My three year old is 14.2 hands, and prefers the heavy roping saddle plus my butt than any of the others, because it fits him. I go on leasurely walks and a little bit of schooling on him. I always wondered how they get two years olds to do futurities because he wasn't even mentally ready for medium riding at that age.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

kaimanawas said:


> just interested with different opinions as to whether riding western is harder on a horse than english


There can be no definitive answer to this. There are too many variables.

If saddles alone are considered, one must realize the wide variety of saddles used in both broad categories of riding. Some of these differences derive from the purpose for which the saddle was designed. Other differences may be more cosmetic.

The size of a saddle can influence both the weight of the saddle – which can also be influenced by the materials used in construction – and how it distributes the weight of both the saddle itself and the rider. A larger, heavier saddle may spread the weight in such a way that there is less pressure per square inch than would a smaller, lighter saddle. But, depending on the actual weight and surface area, it is possible that it might not. 

Then, one must consider where the pressure is applied and how evenly the pressure is applied over the surface area. The design of the saddle and the size and conformation of the horse can influence the results. How the saddle influences the position of the rider is a further consideration.

With all these variations, the saddle is not the only consideration.

One must also consider how the rider sits, how the rider moves – or doesn’t move – with his horse, and how the rider treats his horse.

These considerations alone can be daunting when addressing such a question. But we would still need to consider a wide variety of bits, how they fit the individual horse, and how the rider employs the bit. One might think the bit does not affect a horse’s back. However, a bit and how it is used can influence the tension in a horse’s muscles which will, in turn, influence the comfort or discomfort of the horse’s back.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> I have a huge western saddle that only weighs seven pounds. I have an older English saddle that weighs probably thirty pounds. .


Are you sure you don't have those mixed up? I have never come across a heavy English saddle. My 40+yo Stubben Siegfried weighed all of maybe 15lbs fully fitted out. Conversely, even the super light synthetic saddles I've handled have all weighed 15+lbs fully-fitted. I think the 16" Abetta I used on my gelding a couple of times weighed about 18lbs, with the stirrups and girth. 7lbs is the same as a gallon of milk.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Are you sure you don't have those mixed up? I have never come across a heavy English saddle. My 40+yo Stubben Siegfried weighed all of maybe 15lbs fully fitted out. Conversely, even the super light synthetic saddles I've handled have all weighed 15+lbs fully-fitted. I think the 16" Abetta I used on my gelding a couple of times weighed about 18lbs, with the stirrups and girth. 7lbs is the same as a gallon of milk.


Yep! It's an old barnsby dressage/show(old old) saddle and its HUGE. My light western saddle has a fibreglass tree/synthetic stuff and minimal fittings so it's only light even though it's a 17 inch seat, that's only the saddle though. That English saddle was the first English saddle I had ever handled and when I picked up a friends new English saddle I was blown away at how light it was. I'll post a picture of my light western.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

This is my main saddle: 
It's synthetic leather, with a rawhide wrapped wooden tree so it's actually a bit heavy, but it fits Trouble and I get nervous taking the expensive roper out in case anything happens or he decides to drop in a mud hole. It's not my favorite for positioning me though; it tends to put me in a chair seat, it's very hard to sit or post the trot in it and I feel like my weight is bearing down on the back end of the saddle. Once he grows a bit more we will uprgrade.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

This is my mothers go to saddle: 
This has the same seat size as my saddle but the pitch is different, and it's bad enough that it pinches me and makes me roll onto my pubic bone. I can't imagine it being comfortable on my horse with me sitting like that, with all the weight bearing down onto his/he shoulders and withers. This saddle is heavy (28 pounds) but works wonderfully for my mother.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

This is my favorite saddle, the light one: 
I just weighed it and it's actually 11 pounds, not seven. It fits me beautifully, sits me in a good position, evenly distributes my weight and is very light but it's a tad bit too wide for Trouble, so it's on the back burner for now. It has nearly no pitch in the seat so it doesn't tip me back into the chair position and gives me room for my big thighs, which overall makes me balanced and is easier on a horses back. BUT, all that is compromised by it being too wide for him, and that alone makes my weight solely bear down on his spine and withers.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I have a Cactus made trail saddle that weighs 42# with the stirrups and cinches. I've also had an Abetta saddle that weighed about 15#. I cannot speak for English saddles, but it seems to me that it depends on the material they are made of. Example, inch for inch suede is lighter then latigo leather. Both are leather, but the composition is different.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> I often wonder about this too. I don't compete and am very reluctant to judge other horse people doing things I know very little about. But when I see people training, doing clinics and competing in reining with their 2 and 3 year olds, I wonder how good that can be for them. Same could be said for racing young thoroughbreds, but I stopped watching racing years ago when I figured out how many horses die on the track. I think that regardless of discipline or type of saddle, anytime you work a horse too hard, too soon, it can't be good. It does seems like Western disciplines do a lot of abrupt stopping and starting, and expect the horses to turn on a dime at a very young age. Maybe it's part of the Western mindset where riders and horses are supposed to be tough and just get the job done (also why they don't wear helmets I assume - but that's a whole other can of worms). My daughter jumps, but I don't know of anyone in her group who jumps before the horse is at least 6.
> 
> That said, I don't think the actual saddle has much to do with it, as long as it fits well. You can get lightweight Western saddles and very heavy English saddles for that matter.


The problem in my opinion is similar. It is about breeding income. The owner of a Futurity champion in Cutting, Racing, Reined Cow Horse, Reining, and anything else you care to add to that is basically set for life. One or two Futurity champions at Stud can make you very very rich. 

I'll use the maybe unfair example of Colonel Smoking Gun ("Gunner"). He was blind and a little bit lazy, but he had the "right stuff" for Reining and Reined Cow horse. As a baby three year old he changed the game, and made people associated with him famous. 

Even though he's been dead a couple years now (passed at 14), basically everyone wants a Gunner baby, even though he passes on his deafness which I have very mixed feelings about, because he passes on his looks and quite a bit of his personality. Long yearling Gunner babies with a nice Dam can go for $40k sight unseen, not all do, but it happens. There's a ton of em too. So what happens to the very expensive washouts? 

Metallic Cat (metalliccat.com) is a similar kind of thing. He throws nice color if you like Roans and his colts are believed to be highly intelligent and easy to train. 

Without writing a book, and because the Performance Horse world is kind of my area, I'll just say I sure wish they would move it back to around 5-6 years old. If you take that slice of "Western", I think English is a bit easier on horses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jgnmoose said:


> ...Without writing a book, and because the Performance Horse world is kind of my area, I'll just say I sure wish they would move it back to around 5-6 years old. If you take that slice of "Western", I think English is a bit easier on horses.


That has as little to do with "western riding" as modern Thoroughbred racing has to do with "English riding".

Whether it is hard on a horse's back to start younger than 6...that is another can of worms. It would also run the gamut, from people who spend 5 minutes on a young horse, walking, to those who demand heavy performance from a 2 year old.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

bsms said:


> That has as little to do with "western riding" as modern Thoroughbred racing has to do with "English riding".
> 
> Whether it is hard on a horse's back to start younger than 6...that is another can of worms. It would also run the gamut, from people who spend 5 minutes on a young horse, walking, to those who demand heavy performance from a 2 year old.


So, Western riding is not "Western" unless it is trail riding and going at a slow pace in a show pen? 

Events like Cutting and Reined Cow Horse along with Racing made the Quarter Horse. 

I don't agree with the point I think you are making.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Am I wrong? I thought what made the quarter horse his "name" was actually working cattle on a ranch and range performing a job as well as sprinting for that 1/4 mile chasing a cow to bring it back. Not necessarily spinning in circles in an arena. If people like to watch that, then so be it, but that isn't what gave him his name.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

elkdog said:


> Some horses sweat more than others. When I'm running a pack string all the horses are doing the exact same thing. When we get to camp some of the saddle blankets are soaked with sweat and others are dry. My saddle horse barely sweats at all.


I can't argue with you there, agree completely. But what I was observing was over many rides and with different horses (mine as well) and different riders and it was always the same thing so it was a conclusion that came naturally to me that it might have something to do with the saddle.:shrug:

Just to add, my two horses were quarter horses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jgnmoose said:


> So, Western riding is not "Western" unless it is trail riding and going at a slow pace in a show pen...I don't agree with the point I think you are making.


The age a person starts a horse is neither western nor English. The question asked was "Is riding western harder on a horse's back?", not, "Do people start horses too early for sport?"

If someone does start a horse early, then riding western is no more harmful than English. I don't know what the "best" age is for starting a horse. The racing world is not western, though, and they start horses earlier than I like. And LOTS of western riders start a horse at 3 or older. LOTS of western riders also never spin a horse in circles or do sliding stops.

Separate questions, IMHO.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Blue said:


> Am I wrong? I thought what made the quarter horse his "name" was actually working cattle on a ranch and range performing a job as well as sprinting for that 1/4 mile chasing a cow to bring it back. Not necessarily spinning in circles in an arena. If people like to watch that, then so be it, but that isn't what gave him his name.


I'm too dumb to bow out of a conversation when I'm not doing so hot. I think it is Cowboy Rule #13, never pass a good opportunity to keep your mouth shut.

Yes, you are absolutely right. Speed Index in the Quarter Mile is the literal meaning of Quarter Horse. Some of the greats were terrifically fast on the track. Their get have become some of the great Roping and Performance horses as a result. My personal favorite horse has Three Bars (TB) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Bars) four times on her papers. 

Spinning is something I assume the Californio style of Cow Horse guys brought into competition. It sure is fun though. For me personally there is nothing quite like galloping at a wall in a dead run and asking the horse to wait for your seat to stop. Truthfully, a horse that just does that without much asking is kind of scary. You don't want the horse in those events to do things on their own, the training gets interesting (heart pounding) at speed. 

There aren't a lot of "ranch horses" in the Stud books of the AQHA. Almost all were Raced, shown in Halter or a Performance Horse event. Joe Hancock as an individual got his fame from racing. His get are infamous ranch horses for their several traits including being great Roping horses and having great big hearts (not necessarily the sweet kind).


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Oh, well, I may as well jump in on this.

I'm in the "too many variables" camp. My roping saddle weighs 27# and I sometimes have to ride 10, and occasionally more, hours in the summer. And may have to rope to doctor a couple of times during the day. My horses rarely break a sweat. But... they are fit and I ride them to last all day, meaning I pace our work and pay close attention to to how the horse is doing.

At the same time: I have seen more people using western saddles sit like a sack of spuds and not keep their horses fit, but hop on once on a weekend and ride 'im like they stole 'im. I now avoid places where that happens. 

Still, I also work polo horses. The horses are really fit. Those saddles are of an english style and light. The riders are better than just good. And the horses can be foaming with sweat after a 7 minute chukker. 

A ridiculous comparison? Yep. We're back to "too many variables."


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

For my two cents I think @boots came closer to answering the original question. I had to go back and look because I started to think the question was about saddles.

You can take a horse out of a paddock a few times a year and stick a saddle on (lets just assume it fits), ride for an hour on an easy trail and finish. It is not going to be too hard on the horse, which ever saddle you use.

If you do medium to high level competition the demands on the horse are going to be a lot more. I think most people realize that if you are a couch potato and go and run a marathon you are going to pull muscles, same with the horse. If you are going to do demanding work then you get the horse to a suitable level of fitness. The demand for the task is much easier on the fit horse to the unfit horse. As for discipline, is one easier than another on the horse? Its a bit like comparing apples and pears. The stop/turn is going to use different muscles to jumping so you are really only comparing which joints/muscles are most under duress. So what is more important to consider is fitness/warming up/warming down, feeding and after care (particularly after a strenuous event that is). And of course saddle fit.

IMO on the sweating question a western saddle does spread the weight more but it also covers more of the horses back, so it is quite reasonable it is likely to sweat more as they don't get the chance to dry out as quickly as with an english saddle.
@Drafty, some of the older english saddles were quite heavy depending on what the tree was made of and what packing used.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok, I'll jump in too....ker splash.

I'm always troubled when I hear/read that a saddle should distribute the weight over the greatest area possible to reduce the amount of pressure in any given area.

Makes sense at first but......

Where do we draw the line on that area? Do we want weight on the buttocks that are moving all over the place? Do we want weight over and on top of the shoulders that are also moving all over the place?

Or do we want the main weight bearing area to be mostly (or in English completely) localized to the muscle covering the ribs on either side of the back bone and behind the shoulder? And should be mentioned the tempting area above the back bone is a no-no for distributing the weight on.

Now as I understand, in the days of old cowboys had to ride as many as seven different horses during the week. And the cowboys often could barely afford one saddle. So rather than have a saddle that could only be used on one horse, (last rib to 2 inches behind the shoulder), the western saddle bars were developed with a flare on both ends. In the front, the disconnected shoulders could slide under the bars without much interference with the horse. But some. In the back, the bars sloping up would put some, but less, pressure on the rump. But some.

So the western design made a not so perfect fitting saddle acceptable for use on the range for several differing horses.

So is a not so perfect fitting saddle harder on a horse than a better fitting saddle? I do not know for a fact but am persuaded that it is harder. Does it inhibit the performance? Again I do not know but am persuaded that it does.

I use two SupraCor saddle pads under an endurance saddle with western bars. The top one is ultra soft and ads very little thickness.

I have reduced the length so that it sits behind the hairline on the mane and in line with the first hair line in the rear which is supposed to indicate the last rib. The saddle is longer and hangs over. Hondo is 14hh and has a short back.

I mounted a camera on the cantle to video Rimmey packing salt. Even though I knew the saddle area was supposed to be stable, I had my doubts about the video being any good as I suspected the camera would be turning all over the place.

Here is a link to part of that video. If you watch it, think about what the camera might be doing if the western flare was extended onto his rump which is thrashing around.

This confirms in my mind, where others will continue to disagree, that a western saddle likely is harder on a horse and likely does impede his actions. That said, there are a lot of things that must be done with a horse one a ranch that simply cannot be done without a western saddle.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Saddle tree fit is important of course, and on no saddle , western or otherwise do you want the tree sitting on either the shoulders or digging into the loins.
Correct distribution is key, and correct tree length for any particular horse, plus the correct twist in that tree
I once had a cheap western saddle, that the instructor of that clinic, luckily noticed I had a tree that was too short, thus digging into the loins
Could not help noticing that your pack boxes are not sitting evenly, on both sides, Hondo.
Not that critical, just packing those salt boxes, but if you had a top pack, a tent, and other stuff, you would soon be re packing, or adding rocks into the ropes holding the higher box , hoping not to need to re pack before reaching camp!
Trust me, spent some time doing that!
Many people often also make the mistake of placing a western saddle too far forward, as it looks \right'. They then compound that impact in doing so, by locking it there, with abreast collar
Far as some of those old western saddles, i rode in some of those, when renting horses from on an outfitter, and all I can say, I sure learned to bring my own saddle, which I had kept in my 'horseless years'
Even older western saddles today, are saddles I would never ride in, as they don't allow for close contact, and have all that bulk under your legs, unlike modern well built performance western saddles, that feature close contact
If you read some history of the horses used in the great world wars, horses that could no longer work, due to sore backs was a huge reality

This is a pretty good site, for detailed info on western saddle fit

THE SADDLE


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## bethbella (Jan 4, 2017)

Don't know as English is much more disciplined.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Yes @Smilie, according to Rod Nikkel, the Enlish saddle is to be placed 2 inches behind the shoulder, with the tip of the Western flare just behind the shoulder (scapula) but never on it. And yes, I've witnessed a few too far forward with the back of the saddle "wagging it's tail" because of the alternate pressure of the shoulders.

The cantle camera was mounted to one side on the cantle is the reason for the perception that the boxes are uneven in height. With my math, science, and engineering background and the overly detailed behavior that goes with those people, me included, I assure you the boxes were measured over and over with a tape measure, which I took with me. Heck, for the longest time I ever carried a mirror in my back pocket for ease of watching and checking on the boxes and Rimmey.

I learned a lot with my initial set up and experimenting and later with my 11 salt packing trips over fairly rough terrain.

And here's one thing I learned that I have not seen in print anywhere. If a tire is perfectly balanced and you put equal weights on each side above the center of rotation, with the slightest movement, the tire will make a 180 degree rotation and stay there.

On the other hand, if the two weights are placed below the center of rotation, even if the wheel is turned a little, it will self correct to the original position.

That principle applies equally as well to a pack setup. The packing needs to be done so as to keep the center of mass below the approximate (eyeballed) center of rotation between the saddle and lower cinch.

That's why sleeping bags and light stuff are placed on top with the heavy stuff on the bottom. Various places advise that packing, but non I've visited say why.

Bring your own calibrated measuring device and come on down!

Apologies to the OP but I felt a need to respond to smilies pronouncement which was placed on inaccurate information.

Edit: Just one more occasion where a picture, even a video, is not always worth 1000 words.

PS: But don't you think it is incredible that Hondo's rump could move that much without affecting the video stability?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry, Hondo, should have known that you would have those boxes and weight calibrated to the 9Th!
I just know,that once you start to add a top pack, which includes a tent, sleeping bags,ect, then the balance, fit and tightness of that pack saddle really matters, as a pack, unlike a ride, is dead weight, and does not compensate for terrain
Probably, even using a pack saddle, doeS not really apply tot his post, JMO
In this case, we even packed in a riding saddle, when my brother came out for an elk hunt, as frankie served both for packing in the camp, packing out the elk, and carrying my brother, on day hunts from that camp





We just used the boxes, for carrying out the meat.



I just it is also pretty easy to balance weight in those panniers, placing equal amounts of salt blocks on each side. We were always going to get a scale, but just made do, with each of us holding both panniers or either end, and just making a judgement call, as to weight balance, which obviously, is not ideal
Not possible to place the same items on each side, when packing pots, cook stove, propane (learned not to pack propane in same box with bread ! )canned goods, packaged goods, clothes, ect
Far as sleeping bags, they are a pain, being slippery, as are sleeping pads. Then there is the tightening of the diamond hitch, which could be a time for marital discord, esp when not practiced regularly!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In the end, we have been through before, as to what type of saddle is best for trail riding, and I think it was decided, it is the saddle that fits you and your horse, and does the job intended
To get back and answer the question of this post, I do not think riding with a good western saddle is harder on a horse's back

'The Western saddle was designed for cowboys who spent long days riding the range, driving and working cattle. Leather Western saddles are much heavier than English saddles but the weight of both saddle and rider is spread over a larger area of the horse's back, which makes it less tiring for the horse


'	
spacer

spacer

Carrying Weight and Distribution
By: Galadriel Billington
1:04AM June 1, 2004


pressure diagram of horse
There are two main concerns when a horse has to carry a heavy rider. One is the overall weight, of course. The other concern is how much AREA is distributing the weight.

A horse can often carry about 20% of his own weight. For a 1000 pound horse, 20% would be 200 pounds, rider AND tack. A very fit horse or a stout horse may be able to carry more; some breeds were specifically bred to carry heavier weights, such as the Arabian, Quarter Horse, or Icelandic pony. If a horse is made to carry too much weight, you may cause damage to his bones or skeletal structure; extra force as he moves may also cause damage to his tendons and ligaments.

If you are asking a horse to carry a heavy weight, then it is important to make sure that he can carry the overall weight; it is also important to make sure that the weight is well distributed over his back.

Pressure is Weight divided by Area (Pressure=Weight/Area). The more area carries the weight, the less the pressure will be at any individual spot (of course, the saddle must fit, and have no pressure points). Too much pressure on the surface of the skin can cause rubbing, chafing, or can slow the circulation to the muscles under the skin. Slowing the circulation to the muscles can cause oxygen deprivation in the muscle, which leads to muscle damage and muscle wastage.

Studies are not yet definitive, but it appears that a safe maximum pressure is 2 pounds per square inch. If a rider and saddle together weigh 150 pounds, then the surface of the saddle, where the panels or the bars touch the horse, should be at least 75 square inches.


orienstable.com/articles/z-fitting/weight/

Here is an interesting article, which really goes into 'it depends', and original purpose of an English versus a western saddle

Saddle fit - Western compared to English Part 1


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here are some of my thoughts on Western from another thread.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/endurance-saddle-101-a-740842/page2/


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## Saddlescamp (Sep 23, 2016)

Not necessarily so. Condition of the horses has a lot to do with how they sweat. The blankets used will contribute to sweating also.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Well, I'm going to toss in a monkey wrench by giving a bit of history that does address what's best of the horse.

The "English" saddle (which is not what we called then when I started riding in Germany back in 1968...dressage, jump, hunt etc..., but not "English) is actually just a variation of a military saddle developed by the Germans and Hungarians for the purpose of providing improved mobility, etc... These worked wonderfully for a long time since European armies were not doing long campaigns. Then came large scale wars involving lengthy campaigns (think of Napoleon's Russian campaign). Horses started braking down and unfit for duty with back problems. By the mid 1800's along came a truly "English" (developed by British officers...Dolan was killed in 1854 at Balaclava) saddle designed to reduce the amount of back issues and still maintain the advantages of the old saddle. It was known as the UP (Universal Pattern) saddle. It solved the back issue by....giving it a larger tree, with bars much like the "Western" tree, but the cantle and pommel were make of metal so they could actually be adjusted (with some effort) so they started phasing it in and replacing the saddles with the "English" style tree. Just a few years later the McClellan came along for the US where US army had experienced some of the same problems the European armies had with back issues. You'll find that the armies of most major powers that used Cav had experimented with many different ideas to solve the back issues (including treeless saddles which was a complete disaster giving more back issues than the different treed saddles).
The saddles with the "English" style trees kept their place with the jumping, formal riding schools (think Spanish Riding School which is the only one remaining), the "landed gentry" who were not going to switch )), etc....

So, the answer is that the larger trees are better for the horse's back if you're going to do long distance, campaign style of riding. If you're just going to ride a few hours a week for random trail rides, show rings, or horse shows that require that type of saddle then it isn't going to matter. So long as the saddle fits the horse it should be fine, because even though it's dealing with the weight being concentrated over a smaller area, it's not for an extended period (think of days) and has time to recover between usage.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Very interesting write up. But after examining pictures of a brand new hand crafted UP, I still have doubts about the Western tree being easier on horses over longer distances. I say doubts, not a confirmed opinion.

The UP looks like many of the pack saddle designs I have looked at. I like it. If I had $2,500 to spend on a saddle I would buy one. Look at that rope hammock. But the big deal is that after the pommel is adjusted to a horse, the bars are self adjusting and "float" into position on the horses back. And move with the horse if the ends of the bars happen to rest upon either he shoulders or rump.

What I'm getting at is that the UP had nothing really in comparison to the Western tree. Longer flared bars but that's where it ended. And if I had money to spend I'd purchase the pack saddle that is designed where the left and right bars can move forward and back independently of each other. 

The Western tree has none of the above. It has long rigid flared trees.

I don't know, haven't done the research, but I suspect, that the main problem with the English design in the military was the significant damage that can be done to the shoulders with an ill fitting English design. And with the number of horses in the military, with many being killed and replaced daily perhaps at times, I'd guess there were a lot of ill fitting English design saddles.

Even though the longer flared bars do interfere somewhat with the athletic ability of the horse, they likely didn't interfere with the horse enough to be of any consequence in war uses. And an ill fitting saddle with longer flared bars floating bars with adjustable pommel didn't cause the problems that the fixed ill fitting standard English design did.

Again, I do not see how any of this translates to what we know as the Western treed saddle of today.

Additionally, it does look as though the bars on the UP are thin enough to be able to adjust the twist as it is in one of the adjustable pack saddles that I've looked at.

But I'm still thinking. Here is a link to that really nice UP.

Handcrafted UP 1912 (Swivel Tree) Military Saddle - Mounted - James Saddlery Australia


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

its lbs not miles said:


> So, the answer is that the larger trees are better for the horse's back if you're going to do long distance, campaign style of riding. If you're just going to ride a few hours a week for random trail rides, show rings, or horse shows that require that type of saddle then it isn't going to matter. So long as the saddle fits the horse it should be fine, because even though it's dealing with the weight being concentrated over a smaller area, it's not for an extended period (think of days) and has time to recover between usage.


Except people that do very long rides and even multi day rides often ride in english or even treeless saddles. An example is John Crandell who won the Tevis cup in a Freeform Treeless saddle, and if you look at photos of multi day rides where people do several days of 50 mile rides you can see that many riders are going in english saddles.








(John Crandell on Heraldic)

The biggest issue is about proper fit and freedom from interference with the horse's bony areas, movement and balance rather than the style of saddle or tree. If you have an english saddle with larger panels that end up unbalancing the saddle so the rider's weight is slightly heavier on one side, that is going to affect the horse adversely more than a saddle with smaller panels that sits balanced. 

On a recent ride there were three horses sweating heavily. One horse was in a western saddle and did not go as far or as fast but he still sweated because he was unused to the footing, the surroundings, and not in as good shape as the others. The other two horses were in english saddles, both in excellent shape but sweated because they did more hard galloping than the other horse. There are so many reasons for horses to sweat. One of my horses will be completely dry and if something jumps out of the bushes and scares her she will be soaked with sweat in two minutes. It doesn't necessarily mean a horse is even working hard. I might have to do with a change in the weather or being in new circumstances.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

The elephant in the room is the population as a whole, generally weigh more and are weaker especially around our midsections. Part of that is due to a gain of height as an overall average. The other part of that is an increase in obesity and a loss of muscle mass overall, caused by our much more specialized lifestyles. 

Life required much more physical labor back in the days some of the saddles discussed were designed. Especially amongst the men folk. Riding, like "working out" has become a recreational pursuit for the vast majority of the population. 

The long and short of it is as a matter of routine, we don’t move as much as we used to. Exercise/movement is an afterthought. It is something we do for fun (sport) or to drop a few pounds or because our doctors tell us we should, it is no longer a required way of life. (when was the last time you hauled a room sized area rug outside to hang it up and spent an hour beating it clean with a broom handle?) Routine physical exertion is not a byproduct of living for most.

Some of you might think this discriminatory as it is certainly not PC, but, my former trainer eventually stopped taking on _beginner _students who were vastly _out of shape _and _visibly overweight _because he believed their lack of fitness combined with excessive weight and their inability to _balance_ in a saddle, caused an unnecessary stress to his horse’s bodies even if they were within the 20% rule. He believed that balance and the ability to control the placement of your weight evenly made that big of a difference to the horse. They are his horses and that was rightfully his decision to make. 

If you are truly concerned about minimizing the stress on your horse’s backs as well as the joints in general, good saddle fit is a must, followed closely by choosing a horse who is properly built to carry your weight. Then get yourself strong. Yes, it is an ideal but, we are already splitting hairs with the western/English debate. 

If you wish to positively impact your horse, rather than focusing on English or Western, ride whatever style you wish but focus on your core which includes the muscles, tendons and ligaments in the pelvis, hips, abdomen and lower back. 

Core muscles are stabilizing muscles. It is where your center of gravity is located. Strength in that region leads to better balance and better balance equals less stress for both horse and rider regardless of the saddle style.

Like with so many things in riding, it is not often the tack or tools in and of themselves that is the deciding factor, instead it is our ability to use it properly that makes the biggest difference.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree with Reining, that it has more to do with saddle fit and the fittness/riding ability of the rider, then with whether that saddle is English or western in design
I do know, far as western saddles, that a heavier well made western saddle,built on as non synthetic tree, is way easier on a horse then many of those cheap light western saddles, built on synthetic trees
I know, that I have never sored a horse, using my balanced ride saddle, and I put in many long mountain miles,on various horses, over the years, but am not going for speed, trying to endurance race, thus my choice
Those that do try for 100 mile endurance races, or course, make a different choice, based on their needs, same as the racing saddle for TBs is very modified, to help the horse in his job
Far as those adjustable panels on pack saddles, bought one, and it sored a horse more then any other pack saddle we ever used.. This is on week long pack trips, with that horse packing a big load every day , for a week. Absolutely need a good fitting pack saddle, and where the front and back cinch must be done up tight, plus a breast collar, and should also have britching, but admit to not having used it
Just panniers, hung on the side, are very easy to balance,not going to go anywhere, and in fact, we have a pair of soft panniers for that, which you can hang over your riidng saddle, and then walk, leading the horse, packing out game. It thus saves needing to take a pack horse, as those soft panniers can just be tied onto the back of your riding saddle, rolled up
The tricky part of packing, happens when you add a top load, and need to tie that diamond hitch


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The problem with any of the military designs was that the military bought saddles by the hundred thousands, and used very heavy loads for weeks on end. Heavy, as in standard loads of 250-300 lbs total. They weren't doing 50-100 miles with vet checks, but typically rode 20-30 miles/day for weeks. When chasing Villa in Mexico in 1916, the cavalry covered 580 miles in 28 days, with elevation changes from sea level to over 9,000' MSL.

The McClellan saddle was much cursed by the cavalry - for soring horses. But it was used into the 1940s because so many were bought for the Civil War, and governments don't like to buy new equipment when they have a million+ of "good enough".

However, ANY of the military saddles proved good enough with proper management. During the Boer War (1900-1902), the average British remount was dead in 6 weeks. It caused the British Cavalry to get serious about how they managed horses. 15 years later, during WW1, the BRITISH Cavalry took good care of their horses. During a long retreat, for example - and this is VERY instructive I believe - the horses were under saddle constantly. And starting to get sore. 

The order came down to pause every two hours, remove the gear, rub each side of the horses' back for 5 minutes vigorously (10 min total), put the gear back on and remount. That stopped the damage. They continued their retreat for several more days without injury to their horses. All it took was attention to the muscles and skin supporting the weight, and every couple of hours giving that area a massage.

The French Cavalry, however, didn't bother. To save time, they would often leave the saddles and gear on the horses 24/7. A British officer said you could smell the French coming - from the smell of puss and diseased horses!

British Cavalry in World War One:








​ 







​ 







​ 
I've come full circle on saddles, in part because I'm not convinced that western saddles actually distribute the weight over a larger area. It LOOKS like they do, and people SAY they do:








​ 
But I sometimes have used my English Wintec foam pad, bought for my Australian saddle, under my western saddle. And it actually covers the area of the TREE quite well. It had a bit of surplus with my Aussie saddle, and more with my Bates jump saddle...but not by much. I think a western design does allow the muscle and skin to slide under better than an English design. Combined with a pad that extends beyond the saddle, it seems to guide the muscle under the edge...better than my Australian saddle does, at least. I believe it also has a wider channel than my English saddles did. If I ever buy another English saddle, channel width will be important to me.

But I think the idea that English or Western is harder on a horse misses the point. You can use the reins and bit (or bitless) harshly English or Western. Your saddle can fit or not fit, English or Western. You can be balanced or not, English or Western. You can push a horse beyond his limits in dressage, reining, jumping or barrel racing. Or not.

I think there is good management or bad management. Tack that fits or that does not. Good riding or bad riding. The horse can be a team mate, or a tool. Lots of western and English horses stay sound into their 30s. And many in both who break down early. It is the care that counts, not the style.

BTW - I've also noticed some cavalries allowed a horse to carry more weight with a pack saddle than with a rider. What does THAT say about riders?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@Smilie Do you happen by any chance to recall the brand of adjustable pack saddle that sored your horse?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree with Reining, that it has more to do with saddle fit, then western versus English, and the fittness/balance of the rider
Far as western saddles, I do know that a heavier western saddle, made on a non synthetic tree, is way easier on ahrose, then those cheap synthetic western saddles
I have ridden many long mountain miles, on many differnt horses, over the years, using my balanced ride saddle, and never sored a horse.
I am not going for speed over distance, and if I were, then my choice would be different, same as racing TBs have a very modified English saddle, for the job they do
Far as pack saddles, we did buy one of those pack saddles with adjustable panels, and it sored a horse more then any other pack saddle we ever used. This is packing a load for a week, including that top load, and not just some boxes
It is very easy to hang two boxes on either side of a pack saddle, and have it stay in place, as , where can it go?"
Once you add a top load, and tie that diamond hitch, everything becomes way more critical, 
You then need both back and front cinch done up tight,make sure that top load is very balanced, and tie a good diamond hitch
In fact, we have a set of soft panniers, that you just roll up, and tie behind your saddle. Then, if you get some game, those soft panniers can be hung over your riding saddle, and that person, of course, needing to walk. It saves taking a pack horse along. That kind of packing, with no top load, is very simple, and does not test the limit of any true packing
When you truly pack, complete with top load, both back and front cinch must be done up tight. You should also use both abreast collar and britching
The technology , far as saddle fitting, and even the 'concerns' of whether a saddle really fit, was just not a hugh concern, and lets's face it, many of those recruits riding those hroses, had a quick course in riding, never exposed to a horse int heir life before


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> @Smilie Do you happen by any chance to recall the brand of adjustable pack saddle that sored your horse?


I will go and look at it, when I go to the barn

Just a random picture, with atop load


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Aw 'cmon @Reiningcatsanddogs , don't you think the trainer may have been just a little bit too picky?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Aw 'cmon @Reiningcatsanddogs , don't you think the trainer may have been just a little bit too picky?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hondo I have one thing to say to that:


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## EmberScarlet (Oct 28, 2016)

If anything, the saddle is spread out on a wider area, thus dispersing weight. I don't think it's harder at all.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^It would appear as though the conversation has evolved beyond this. 

I agree, on one hand, that there are too many variables. 
But really, as all things in the horse world, this should be a question of a case by case basis. The variables would be controlled in that case. Ie--same rider (with the same weight and level of fitness), same horse (who also has the same level of fitness), different saddles. 

And, to address something someone posted pages ago, it's simply inaccurate to say that English is more disciplined than Western.


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## EmberScarlet (Oct 28, 2016)

Has the conversation _really _moved past that? Well maybe it has, but I'm not a part of that conversation. I am replying to the thread starter, not your guys' conversation. Sorry if that's unacceptable, or rude. 

I found this


> As explained in my Saddle Facts article, the western saddle is larger and heavier than the english saddle. It's designed to spread the weight of the rider over a larger area of the horses back, making it more comfortable for long days out chasing cows.


 on English Versus Western Riding | The Difference Between Western and English Riding Styles | EquiSearch. Which, of course, isn't proof, but it also explains things better.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My Wintec foam pad, if I put it under my western saddle, covers the footprint of the tree. It also mostly matched the contact area of my Australian saddle, which is a variation of a dressage saddle.

Here is a western tree on Mia's back:








​ 
That footprint is about the same as my Aussie saddle. I would love to see some side by side pressure mat readings of a good fitting western saddle versus a good fitting English saddle to see if the western one does distribute weight over a larger area. But if the TREE is the weight-bearing part of the western saddle, then a western saddle's weight bearing area is only a little larger than my Aussie. If anyone knows of a good pressure comparison, with actual numbers of square inches of distribution, I'd LOVE to see it!

I could see a western saddle distributing weight over an area that is 15-20% larger, but I doubt it is 50% larger - which is the 'average' number I've heard tossed about. The flip side is that I believe the 10-15 lb difference in weight between saddles is minor to the horse. My English jump saddle, with stirrups, weighed 15 lbs. My daughter's Circle Y weighs 25 lb, like my Australian saddle. And my roping-grade western saddle weighs 30 lbs. Heck, MY weight has fluctuated by more than 15 lbs since I started riding!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@bsms

1. The picture below from your post above grossly distorts what many people might view as the difference in support area between the Western and English saddle.

I have taken my saddle apart and installed two different rigid western trees. There is a deep depression in the very thick leather skirt that forms where the bars rest. That is the support area of the Western tree. If the picture of the Western saddle is viewed closely, the area I describe can be seen. And because of the leather and wool backing, it appears much larger even at that than it actually is.

2. As this discussion has progressed, which I am very much appreciative of, I am becoming more and more convinced that no part of the saddle support area should or needs to be resting upon any part of the horse that moves, significantly, relative to the area behind the withers and in front of the last rib, providing the saddle actually does fit the horse.

If the fit is marginal, then the longer bars and flares may prevent worse damage than without them.

3. If the support area is resting on anything that significantly moves, the horse's natural movement is impeded somewhat. This is without question with those involved in athletic pursuits with their horse.

4. If there is interference with natural movement, then the horse must move in an un-natural way, which by definition is not as his joints, ligaments, etc were designed to move and developed by nature and is bound to cause some problems. (i.e. harder on the horse)

This represents a firming up of my opinion on this, but my mind always remains open.

My next saddle is looking to be an Aussie.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@bsms We crossed posts. My main point is that the maximum weight distribution area should be within the area that doesn't move (much) relative to the rest.

So whichever has the largest area is not the end of concern.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Western saddles always extend past the last rib. Doesn't cause a problem. I find it hard to get around the history of western saddles having an excellent record. Too many people have used them on ranches, going long days in rough country successfully.

And while I've been told the tree is the weight distributing part of a western saddle, this is a pressure reading:










Center of pressure under a saddle

Position - Why it is so important

Could it be the skirts, and pressure from the thighs also carry weight? It certainly doesn't look like the tree, by itself, is responsible for total weight distribution - which would than make my previous posts wrong, wouldn't it? Oh well. Wouldn't be the first time!

I'll say this: Comparing western with Australian, same rider same horse same week...I'd give the edge in protection to my western saddle. Hard for me to compare western to English because my English saddles had Bates' CAIR & I came to hate the CAIR system. But I haven't seen a big difference, and what I've seen could have more to do with fit than style saddle - or even be my imagination. I really think it has more to do with management of the horse than saddle type.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Has anyone used the "Bareback" saddles and what do you think of them?
https://www.statelinetack.com/western-saddles-and-tack/bareback-pads-and-seat-cushions/2308/
@Hondo on that grey the saddle looks too small for the rider. In the second last pic where the horse is standing stretched like that is typical when a horse is trying to relieve pressure on its back.

While that horse has obviously carried that rider on the trail, it would be kinder on that horse to keep rides shorter with that rider. The rider would enjoy the whole trekking/trail riding scene with a more draft type horse (ie clyde/tb x or cob type) and a saddle that fitted his @$$ better. Just my thoughts and no offense intended.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Has anyone used the "Bareback" saddles and what do you think of them?
> https://www.statelinetack.com/western-saddles-and-tack/bareback-pads-and-seat-cushions/2308/
> 
> @Hondo on that grey the saddle looks too small for the rider. In the second last pic where the horse is standing stretched like that is typical when a horse is trying to relieve pressure on its back.
> ...


I ordered the cashel soft saddle last year and really didn't like it. It was bulkier than I expected and something kept rubbing my leg. Never could figure it out. That one got sent back. 

Then I bought a Mustang brand soft saddle at Cal Ranch. Love it! I replaced the cinch it came with and put a good neoprene roper style on it. Burned a few more holes in the nylon latigo and it's great. Not a fan of the stirrups but haven't replaced them yet.

I ordered it originally for my 35 year old gelding. He still gets a little jaunt down the road to the mailbox every now and then and I didn't want to throw my heavy trail saddle on him, but he still has a little pi$$ and vinegar and likes to show off for the mares at the end of the road. And I've discovered that in my 60's my thighs don't have the grip they used to so a bit of a saddle is what was needed. 

I also have used it on my mare and it fits her beautifully. I've been fortunate and not needed to put a pad under it, but if I was going to spend hours in it I would. So far it's been just quick trips.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> My Wintec foam pad, if I put it under my western saddle, covers the footprint of the tree. It also mostly matched the contact area of my Australian saddle, which is a variation of a dressage saddle.
> 
> Here is a western tree on Mia's back:
> 
> ...


If you go back to the one link I posted, it does go into PSi,and, the weight distribution on a western tree, is also influenced by the twist, which is often not even considered by many

If you really, really read this link also, your understanding of a good western saddle will be enhanced

THE SADDLE

You also don't flock a western tree, so correct fit of the ENTIRE tree is more critical.

Far as those pictures reining posted, they show about every abuse you can render a horse , riding in a western saddle that does not fit, either the horse or the rider, compounded by a'sack of potatoes sitting in that saddle (wedged in,would be more correct ! )


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Aw 'cmon @Reiningcatsanddogs , don't you think the trainer may have been just a little bit too picky?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All I gotta say, what in the heck does this extreme bad example, have to do with the subject of this post.
My reaction is-get that tub of lard off that horse, and that cheap saddle!


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

More weight spread over a bigger area is always going to be easier than a lot of weight on a small area. That's just physics. 

However...saddles don't matter- riding does. Different pieces of equipment evolved to do different jobs, so comparing the two is apples and oranges. That's like asking if a shovel is better than a backhoe. They both do the same thing, just for different purposes. 

Western saddles do allow for someone to be less precise in their riding without doing themselves or the horse a lot of harm, but it still happens. English saddles are great for endurance because they allow a greater dissipation of heat (skin surface to air contact), as well as being made for posting, which assists the horse even further since a great deal of what endurance is is trotting - using the most efficient gait the horse possesses to cover as much ground as possible without tiring the horse out entirely. 

Also, it's easier to take an English saddle off and on, and tighten or loosen the girth from the saddle. All things that have to be done multiple times during an endurance ride.

Western saddles are great for long days in the saddle- trail, ranch work, etc. For 2-9 hours in the saddle, you need something that is going to allow for a comfortable distribution of weight for a long period of time, as well as allow the rider to not have their legs fall off by the end. They also allow a rider who possibly has trouble with the seat needed for English riding to stay more secure than they would in an English saddle. 

So- different jobs, different tools. Neither is better or worse - a tool is only as good as the person using it.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Thanks for that @Blue which Cashel did you try? 

I was recommended Bareback for when i get to ride again. Just wondering how versatile they are. Wanting something that will go from trail to jumping to dressage :shrug:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

this is my balance ride saddle, that originated out of Monte Freeman's concept, then followed by his student, Pat wise.
I bought it some 30 years ago, at least, so it was ahead of it's time, far as design in western saddles, allowing close contact, and enabling a'balanced ride'
I bought it at the time, for $1,500 , which was a good price for a saddle then. I could not now replace it with $7,000.
Not only do I use it as my main everyday saddle to this day but I have lost count of how many colts I started with this saddle, nor how many mountain miles I have ridden with it, and on how many different horses. 
I have never sored a horse.
Yes, endurance riders ride in English type saddles, as when you are covering distance in a certain time frame, weight becomes a factor. Take that to the extreme, and if you are racing, then you would use a racing saddle, and not an endurance saddle. That has nothing to do with this subject, as that is selecting the type of saddle best for intended use.
A western saddle is designed to put in long miles, while ready to work cattle, or other chores, like riding a grazing lease, or riding distance, but not in a timed by the clock method, and not for a few days, but often for weeks at a time, if on an extended pack trip. Those rides also don't end in pit stops, where supplies are available for both rider and horse
You might drag a log into camp, double that riding saddle as a pack saddle, hanging on soft panniers
In other words, you cannot take away the concept that various saddles, either English or western, are designed for the job intended, and both an English saddle or a western saddle can get the job done and be the best choice for that horse and rider.
At the same time, there is the fact that many more people ride in cheap western saddles, then cheap English saddles, and base their opinions on that fact.
They take a relatively well made English saddle, and then compare it to one of those western saddles I would never dream putting on my horse.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

@bsms Good point about the thighs being part of the weight carrying force. Makes sense.

Just got back from ponying Dragon for about three miles and remembered something I forgot to mention that has had an influence on my thinking.

I cut my very expensive Supracor saddle pad down to fit between the scapula and the last rib. The front of the saddle is about even but the back hangs over about two inches.

With the extra pad, the portion of the saddle that hangs over is about 3/4" or more above Hondo. I have held my hand/fingers back there on many occasions to check the distance between the back of the saddle and Hondo's hair surface. Sometimes the saddle will actually be rubbing on his hair. But not hard as I can always slip my fingers underneath and there's very little pressure on them. But if the full pad were going back there in full thickness, there would be considerably more.

So I'm thinking if the distance between his loins and the saddle varies between 0" and 3/4" I don't want that part resting on him. And the video also helped confirm my opinion (to me) from the stability of the camera with the saddle only sitting on the classical saddle fit area.

Agreed the western saddle tree has a long successful history in terms of continued use. But I'm betting if you visit the average real working cattle ranch, you'll see lots of horses with spots of white hair. I've seen a few here. The average working cattle ranch just doesn't spend a lot of time worrying about a small bit of sorness and the like. Particularly when they themselves get kick by cows and worse. Those wild cows can kick like hades. Ask me how I know.

So there's been lots of saddles with lots of history but I'm just looking at what I can see with my own mostly.

I'm fast becoming a "behind the shoulders in front of the last rib nazi". If an area moves, I don't want to load it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

On the average working ranch, those horses are often ridden with saddles that don't fit all that well, plus have a horse holding a cow that hits the end of a rope, hard, several times, and it is way different then just recreational riding

Anyway, since links don't get read, always, I thought I would paste this paragraph from alink I posted previously, which , I believe is key to this entire subject. You have to understand the difference in design between the two saddles, in order to know how to fit a western saddle, as well as an English saddle, or even what makes agood western saddle

'Saddle fit - Western compared to English Part 1
Posted by RodandDenise on September 4, 2012

There is a lot of discussion - on the internet, written in books, put into video form, etc. - about how saddles should fit horses. But for a western saddle tree maker's assistant with a background in veterinary medicine (ie me), it is an exercise in frustration reading what is said about fitting a western saddle. Sometimes what is said is just plain wrong, stated by people who don't understand how saddles really work but who present their unsubstantiated statements with confidence and authority. Sometimes it is wrong because people are following a set of "rules" and applying them without thinking through what they are doing, and without understanding how saddles really work. And very commonly it is wrong because "the rules" of fitting an English saddle are transferred onto Western saddles without understanding the differences in design of a western saddle versus an English one, and without understanding that these differences mean the whole way of looking at how the saddle functions has to be different as well. 


While the purpose of all saddle trees is to distribute the weight of the rider over as large a surface area as possible, the manner in which this is done is different between English and Western trees. Here are a couple pictures of English saddle trees that I snaffled off the net. As you can see, the tree is very small with minimal surface area. That is because what is in contact with the horse are panels filled with softer materials such as wool (traditionally) or very commonly these days, foam or even air. The shape of the tree still has to fit the shape of the horse, especially at the pommel and the points, though the rails should also be flat to the horse without edges angled so they could dig in. But the shape and design of the panels and how they are flocked is crucial to the fit for the horse, and these saddles are usually designed to be reflocked to change the shape of the "stuffing" in the panels to match the shape of a particular horse.

Saddle fit - Western compared to English Part 1
Posted by RodandDenise on September 4, 2012

There is a lot of discussion - on the internet, written in books, put into video form, etc. - about how saddles should fit horses. But for a western saddle tree maker's assistant with a background in veterinary medicine (ie me), it is an exercise in frustration reading what is said about fitting a western saddle. Sometimes what is said is just plain wrong, stated by people who don't understand how saddles really work but who present their unsubstantiated statements with confidence and authority. Sometimes it is wrong because people are following a set of "rules" and applying them without thinking through what they are doing, and without understanding how saddles really work. And very commonly it is wrong because "the rules" of fitting an English saddle are transferred onto Western saddles without understanding the differences in design of a western saddle versus an English one, and without understanding that these differences mean the whole way of looking at how the saddle functions has to be different as well. 

Disclaimer off the top
I am making no statement that I am in anyway an "expert" or even highly knowledgeable about English saddles. Most of my information comes from reading, watching, and talking with others who are supposed to know more than I do. So for those who are reading this who do know a lot more about English saddles that I do, if I make a glaring error or am totally misunderstanding something, please let me know. My primary goal in discussing this here is to present what is true/actual fact about Western saddles. I feel that I do know what I am talking about in regards to them! But again, if you disagree, please feel free to comment.

History and use
The English saddle, as I understand it, was designed as something to help the person be more comfortable and secure as they rode a horse primarily for transportation from one place to another. This style of saddle also was used in varying forms as a war saddle. Currently, it is primarily used when the rider is "going to ride", specifically to spend time with their horse or do certain athletic events with their horse. Thus the rider's attention is primarily on their horse and their riding when using an English saddle today.

A Western saddle, however, was designed to be a tool in day to day work with cattle. It was intended to be used for long hours at a stretch, riding over rough country, with a horn specifically made for roping and holding large cattle. When using a Western saddle this way, the rider's attention is often looking for cattle, or on what needs to be done to move them or doctor them or brand them, or on the fence he is checking for damage, or on any of a number of other jobs that need to be done horseback. While western saddles are now commonly used for certain athletic events (most of which come out of this background as a working saddle), many of these events still have cattle involved, so the rider's attention is still not principally on his horse at all times. The proportion of riders using western saddles today whose concentration is primarily on their horse and their riding is growing, but that wasn't the original reason for the saddle's design.

Comparing the horse side
2012_Sept_3_2_Engish_saddle_tree.jpg	2012_Sept_3_1_English_saddle_tree_diagram.jpg
While the purpose of all saddle trees is to distribute the weight of the rider over as large a surface area as possible, the manner in which this is done is different between English and Western trees. Here are a couple pictures of English saddle trees that I snaffled off the net. As you can see, the tree is very small with minimal surface area. That is because what is in contact with the horse are panels filled with softer materials such as wool (traditionally) or very commonly these days, foam or even air. The shape of the tree still has to fit the shape of the horse, especially at the pommel and the points, though the rails should also be flat to the horse without edges angled so they could dig in. But the shape and design of the panels and how they are flocked is crucial to the fit for the horse, and these saddles are usually designed to be reflocked to change the shape of the "stuffing" in the panels to match the shape of a particular horse.

2012_Sept_3_3__Nikkel_saddle_tree.jpg

A western tree has large bars with a lot of surface area to distribute the weight of the rider over the back of the horse, and matching the shape of the bars to the shape of the horse is crucial because there is nothing else that changes that "fit" the way panels do on an English saddle. Beneath the bars are the skirts - one layer of thick leather and a layer of fleece, preferably real sheepskin - and then the padding the rider chooses to go under the saddle. Since these all are, or should be, an even thickness, they don't change the shape of the bars compared to the shape of the horse's back, so the shape of the bars is vital in how the saddle will fit the horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have pasted some more of that comparison, so that discussing the differnce between the two, can be based on first of all knowing the difference of the two saddles in the first place, besides that one is lighter, and one has a bigger tree

The author is a vet, and has worked as an assistant saddle maker, so not clueless

Comparing with our 3 Principles
Position of the saddle

English saddle trees have thin, narrow points that come down the side of the horse with panels beneath them. While the shoulder blades may slip under the panels, they may not slip under the points, and therefore the points of an English tree need to be set back a bit from the shoulder blades to allow for proper movement.

Western saddle trees have large, rounded front bar pads with a rounded tip built in that directs the shoulder blade underneath that tip when it moves back the farthest. It is able to do this because there is no weight on the leg at that phase of the stride. (See Rethinking Saddle Fit and Shoulder Blade Movement for pressure testing which proves this to be true.) So the front of the bars of a Western saddle tree are designed to sit right behind the shoulder blade. This is explained further in our Proper Position of a Western Saddle page.

However, in both cases, it is the position of the saddle tree that determines the proper position of the saddle, not the rigging position, cinch/girth position, rider position, cantle position etc. 

No Poking - ie. no areas of high pressure

The principle is the same, but the areas of concern are different between English and Western saddles. The points on an English saddle are a crucial area to check as they carry a lot of the weight and end abruptly. If the angle of the points is too steep, those points will drive into a horse pretty hard. Also, the area of the "twist" or waist is often very narrow in order to make a narrow seat that the rider likes. However, since pressure concentrates on bone, having those rails too close together can put a lot of pressure on the sides of the spinous processes and cause problems. The stirrup bars are another area that can cause problems. In order for them not to dig into the rider, they are sometimes inadvertently positioned in a way that digs into the horse. These are critical areas to check on an English saddle.

The critical areas for a Western saddle are different. The front and back babar tips are important as they can cause high pressure areas if they are not shaped well to match the horse. The edges - top and bottom - of the bars may also cause pressure points. The bottom edges will carry a lot of weight if the tree is too narrow for the horse. The top edge, especially the top of the front of the bar under the fork, will carry too much weight if the tree is too wide and therefore "falls down" on the front end. Another thing to check is that the crown is not too round, as it may cause a high pressure area under the center of the front bar pad.

Distribute the Pressure over as much surface area as possible.

There is no question that the available surface area for pressure distribution is much larger over the bars of a Western saddle compared to the panels of an English saddle. This assumes, of course, that most of the surface area is being used because its shape matches the shape of the horse. If the saddle does not fit, then much of the surface area is not in contact with the horse and therefore not being used. An English saddle can be reflocked to increase the surface area in contact with the horse to a certain extent, but a Western saddle cannot be changed in this manner. However, you can have a much lower percentage of a western bar in contact with the horse and still have more surface area on him than in a typical English saddle just because of the total amount of surface area available to start with. For the same weight of rider, the PSI (pounds per square inch) is much less under a (decently fitting) Western saddle, and since damage occurs from pressure over time, that extra surface area makes a huge difference to the horse when being ridden for long time periods. So the differences between the saddles really make sense when you look at what they were orignally designed to do.

So one of the main things to remember about reading *any* saddle fit "rules," anywhere, is to take them with a grain of salt and a whole pound of common sense. Certainly, you don't want to apply a lot of the "rules" you find about English fitting to Western saddles--but you don't want to apply them to English saddles either! 
In any case, judging Western tree fit by what's said on the Internet about English saddles just doesn't make any sense. They're so tremendously different. And yet, the basic idea is the same: the internal structure should be approximately the same as the horse's back, and there shouldn't be any specific areas where the pressure is much higher due to poor structural match or to saddle flaws.



So, in summary, use the saddle that works best for the job intended, is well fitted, but be aware of the difference, instead of just comparing an English saddle to a western saddle, then coming up with un founded conclusions


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Bottom line. The area between the scapula and the last rib moves very very little even though it "feels" like it does. The video proves it. Period.

The area in front of the scapula and behind the last rib moves A LOT compared to the saddle fit area.

Loading the shoulders causes alternating forces on the front of the saddle tree. It simply cannot be any other way. And the forces on the rump causes the same thing. It simply cannot be any other way. All this happens while the center portion between the shoulders and the last rib remain relatively motionless.

I see a problem with this. Loading an immobile area adjacent to a moving area is not a case of physics in just spreading the forces over a larger area.

Does not compute for me. And I happen to have taught physics in HS two years.

I do understand the historical and continued need for the western tree, but trail riding is not one of them. Better for the horse to not be loaded in those areas other than for western ranch work.

And even then, don't they have some equivalent to cowboys in Australia? How do they manage without a western tree? How do they rope cattle with a modified dressage saddle?

Now there's a question and I think it fits the OP's topic at least somewhat.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Thanks for that @Blue which Cashel did you try?
> 
> I was recommended Bareback for when i get to ride again. Just wondering how versatile they are. Wanting something that will go from trail to jumping to dressage :shrug:


I tried the G2. Excellent quality, and if you're looking to transition from a leisurely stroll to perhaps jumping or even more strenuous trails, it may work well for you. I only sent it back because it was more than I was looking for. I only wanted as little as possible but still have a "seat". As you say, transitions. It would be worth it for you to look into it. I'd be interested to hear how you like it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"So, the take home message from all this - sometimes what happens in real life doesn't fit with what we expect to happen due to the way things look like they should perform or the way they perform in other species or other situations. And a lot of what is currently stated as fact about saddle fit comes from what people _expect to happen_ - not real knowledge about what _really does happen_. Just because it looks like it should be this way doesn't necessarily make it so!"

Movement of the rib cage

Does movement in a horse's back increase after the last rib? In a word, no. If anything, the range of motion is LESS:








​
How the rear of a western saddle tree looks:








​
Maybe it is my style of riding, but the rear of my western saddle tree doesn't spend a lot of time pressing down on the loin - but it DOES extend to the loin. At a canter, when the horse's back moves a lot, it does so like a lever lifting from the rear, not a rounding or flexing motion.








​
All western saddles extend over the loin

Can the loin of the horse carry weight?

Two of my horses have been ranch horses. The Appy has white spots near the withers due to gouging from a poor fitting saddle used with roping. Neither has white hairs on the loin, at least not that I can see.

"And even then, don't they have some equivalent to cowboys in Australia? How do they manage without a western tree?" - @*Hondo* 

Actually, most of them have converted to using western trees with poleys added:








​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No one said to load the shoulders.You also don't load the rump.
A back cinch on a western saddle, done up, prevents that slight back and forth motion that will sore ahorse

'The Proper Position of a Western saddle
The first of the 3 Ps in our Principles of saddle fit is Position. The shape of the tree is designed to match the shape of the horse's back when it is sitting in the proper place. If the saddle is sitting in another position on the back, the shapes will no longer match. If the shapes don't match, you will have high pressure spots (Poking - Principle #2) and places where there is no contact to help distribute the Pressure (Principle #3). This means that most of what the saddle and tree makers do to ensure proper fit for the horse is thrown out the window when the rider places and holds the saddle in the wrong position. 

So where is the proper place?
Position_1_correct.jpgA western saddle tree is designed to fit right behind the shoulder blades of the horse in what is often called the “wither pocket” area. To a lot of people, this appears to be too far back, but that is only because they are used to seeing malpositioned saddles. Unfortunately, positioning the saddle according to rigging position so the cinch hangs vertical fairly close behind the elbow is a very common practice. This often puts the saddle too far forward with the bar on the shoulder blade itself, but since it "looks right" to people used to seeing saddles positioned that way, they tighten the breast collar to hold it in what they think is the "right place" - and in doing so harm their horse.

Here is the link, so you can see the picture

Proper position of a Western saddle

perhaps, you are not clear on where a western saddle should be positioned correctly? I can only assume that must be the fact, if you think it should be placed over the shoulders or on the rump?????

I respect that you taught physics, Hondo, but you also have to understnad horse mechanics, structure, far as movement, and where you correctly place a western saddle
The above link will clarify those facts for you


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> Does movement in a horse's back increase after the last rib? In a word, no.


Wrong. Very very wrong.

Apparently you must have missed the video. Plus the the fact that my pad stops at the last rib with 2 inches of saddle extending beyond and I can very well feel the horse moving up and down as much as 3/4" in that area.

I know you are convinced the chart are correct, but if you could experience what I experience, you would know they are dead wrong. No question about it. I've watched and felt the movement. A LOT of movement.

In a word, "Yes".


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just one paragraph, in case you do not wish to read that entire link, then combine your physics with the anatomy and movement of the horse, to assess a correctly placed and fitted western tree

'What about shoulder movement?
Position_2.jpgThe shoulder blades do rotate back when the horse moves. The three pieces of tape in the picture above show the farthest forward movement, the standing position and the farthest back movement at a walk. So why isn't the muscle over the shoulder compressed between the shoulder blade and the front bar tips at maximum rotation if the bar is right behind the shoulder blade when the horse is standing? Because of two factors: 1.) The shoulder blade rotates back when the horse is moving his leg forward and there is no weight on it. 2.) There is no bony attachment between the front leg of the horse and his body. It is only held in place by muscle, and is therefore quite moveable, in and out as well as front, back and rotation. So as the shoulder blade rotates back, it can slide under the front bar tips of the tree because it is not held out from the body by bone (like human shoulders are). Because there is no weight on it, there is no high pressure to compress the muscle, and no pain or damage occurs. By the time there is weight on the leg, the shoulder blade is more upright, and therefore out from underneath the bar tip again.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Now here's something I had not thought of. A point to ponder.

Reading on an Australian Saddle Makers site, (from down under), they pointed out that the western roping saddle was the best roping saddle. They also pointed out that because of the need for a very strong pommel and saddle horn area, the rider was required to sit back further than in an Aussie saddle.

They contend that the Aussie saddle which places the riders weight further or closer to the shoulders with less weight on the horse's spine, is easier on the horse.

Since it's basically a modified dressage saddle, which is English, their opinion lends to the idea that a Western saddle is in fact harder on the horse for trail riding than English, although best and necessary for roping.

This makes good sense to me.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...I know you are convinced the chart are correct, but if you could experience what I experience, you would know they are dead wrong. No question about it. I've watched and felt the movement....


You confuse movement with flexing. The horse's spine doesn't flex significantly between the hips and neck. It will move up and down, but flat movement - like a 2x4 can be lifted at one end.

If you lift one end of a 2x4, will it be affected by another piece of flat wood on top of it? No, because you are rotating a flat piece of wood. And, to a large extent, a horse's spine is like that - with very little flex physically possible due to the shape and closeness of the bones in the spine.

This captures the motion of the spine in a canter well. The horse is very collected, so his pivot point is further back than an uncollected horse:








​ 
The first, in particular, shows how the hind quarter's thrust lifts the rear higher, rotating around the horse's center of gravity. The back moves, but it doesn't flex along the spine.

Our weight moves as well, and we tend to press down as the back tilts up underneath us - true even for a world champion rider! That is where an extended tree helps, by distributing that pressing down over a larger area. Ending the saddle before the loin only results in the pressure being applied to a smaller area.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...the rider was required to sit back further than in an Aussie saddle.
> 
> They contend that the Aussie saddle which places the riders weight further or closer to the shoulders with less weight on the horse's spine, is easier on the horse...


A western saddle tends to sit you further back. How much? Maybe a couple of inches. But then, the line of pressure an Australian saddle has in the front means you really SHOULD place the saddle a few inches back - cancelling it out.

I've got an Australian saddle. I rode it for years. I still use it sometimes. If I am not careful, it is MORE likely to interfere with the shoulders. It is a good saddle, IMHO, but it is definitely a less forgiving saddle than my western. And most Australian saddles now seem to have moved toward the western saddle tree:

















​ 

"Q2: Are half-breed saddles better than traditional Australian stock saddles?

_A: There are mixed feelings out there, some say yes, some say no.

This is DEFINITELY a personal preference. Any top quality custom saddle should fit and be comfortable for both horse and rider, regardless of which style it may be.

However!

*My opinion (and your horse's too I'm sure) is that half breed saddles ARE better.* They provide much more positive contact with the horses back through more under-saddle surface area, therefore spreading the rider's weight over a much larger area. I strongly recommend this style of saddle for a rider weighing 80kg's or more.

Also, this style of saddle allows the rider to get right down on the horse, as close as possible to the horse's centre of gravity. Unfortunately, traditional stock saddles cannot offer these characteristics to the same extent_."

FAQ - Cooper Saddles


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> You confuse movement with flexing.


You are either confuse/misunderstand/do not understand what I said or at least meant.

I personally observed many times on Hondo the hair/surface two inches behind the last rib going up/down min 3/4" relative to the back of the pad which ends at the last vertebrae as measured by the last hair part/crease on the side.

Now I cannot say the vertebrae behind the last rib is responsible for this movement, but the movement is there. And is repeatable for anyone who would care to observe. It may be muscle going up and down. But whatever it is, I ain't gonna load it.

Now when walking on level ground, the movement or reduction in the 3/4" is minimal. But climbing or descending steep grade, there is a full 3/4 inch movement or at times the back of the saddle just sits on his thoracic region with the space opening back up after decent.

He may be double jointed. But whatever, it is as I describe it.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Coopers Saddle says: Personal preference plays a big part...

Translation: We'll sell you anything you'll buy


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

gottatrot said:


> Except people that do very long rides and even multi day rides often ride in english or even treeless saddles. An example is John Crandell who won the Tevis cup in a Freeform Treeless saddle, and if you look at photos of multi day rides where people do several days of 50 mile rides you can see that many riders are going in english saddles.
> 
> .


This is going to get off topic some, but since saddles endurance racers and long weekend warriors use is being compared to what long distance horses need  lets clear up a commonly held misconception. Even though people, including many endurance racers, like to call endurance racing "long distance riding" it's really long distance "racing" (of a limited distance) for 1-3 days generally. Riding several days is not the same as riding for several weeks (or several months) That is a very important distinction, because even the Tevis cup (100 miles in a day) is still just a race and at the end of the 1 day, 2 day, or 3 day racing event the horse (and rider) get to go home to rest and recover and take it easy before going back to maintain conditioning for the next race. Even if they did two races back to back it's still a week of riding, not weeks (and 8 hours of wearing a saddle is still 8 hours under load whether your speed covered 20 miles, 40 miles or 60 miles) They also get to spend the night at staged campsites with water, vets, etc... Many have their own support team to take care of camp and relocating if needed. Now there's nothing wrong with all that. It's good. This is a race after all and that's the focus. Finish the race with a sound horse (win if possible) . Then we can take time to recover before prepping for the next race.
I wish long distance riding was like that ))). Everything you will have to live with is loaded on the saddle with the rider (and it's trimmed down since weight is a huge issue). You will spend a week riding a distance that endurance racers do in a couple of days, generally between 100 - 150 miles on good week and depending on the number of days riding. You'll rest for a couple of days (still living out of some sort of tent like shelter), resupply feed and food (logistics is a big issue), and continue on doing it again for another week (ideally 5 days on, but it can end up being more). And on and on, week after week, or even months, until you get where ever it is you wanted to be (if you had a specific destination in mind...you don't have to have a set destination). The "endurance" horse gets recovery time which generally will mitigate a slightly sore back muscle if it has any and the physical, biochemical stresses (like marathon runners they all have it to deal with). Even if it ends up with some more obviously sore spots (keep in mind that horses in general are very stoic animals and can, often do, endure a great deal of discomfort and even pain) it's easy enough to give them a break, treat the problem, and have them recover comfortably at home (you've got your trailer handy). These are not options for the long distance rider. Something goes wrong with the horse and your trip is likely over. Which is certainly not much fun when you're likely 100's of miles from home. With no support team, no trailer, a horse that you want and need to get better before you can continue, so now you need to either find a place were you can hold up for however long it will take or try to find a way to arrange being trailered back home. It could be as simple as finding the problem while you're camped at someone's place who will help out with it, or you could be in the middle of nowhere when you discover the problem, with no one around for miles and no cell signal. You don't want to load everything back on the horse even if you're just going to lead her, because she'll be in pain and might have had enough (making it unpleasant for both you and the horse). So then you're stuck with what? Breaking camp, packing your gear and hiding it so hopefully no one passing by will notice it and steal it (odds are you'll be using a saddle custom made for your horse that you don't want stolen), and then leading your horse (can't see leaving my horse picketed while I'm gone in this situation) for however many miles before you either find someone who can provide some form of assistance or get a cell signal so you can call someone. Then walking back if you still have enough daylight left (if not it get's even more unpleasant).
So, getting back to the point , for distance riding the weight displacement of a saddle does matter and we can't get by with things endurance racers can. Just as it mattered for the mounted troops on campaign. Doesn't mean you can't still end up with a sore back or some other problem. You can have a saddle that doesn't fit quite as well as it should. You can over load them with too much weight for too long (it catches up with you). The long distance rider has to take more into consideration and try to avoid more potential issues than over 99% of riders, but it does tend to make us overly aware of every little thing. Things that others would not notice, not consider, make no difference with zero effect for everyone else could end up leaving us and our horse in a bad situation so we try hard to avoid that.

So....yes, a proper fit with a saddle that efficiently displaces the most weight, is the best thing for the horse. Doesn't mean that other saddles are bad. Most can find a home (if they don't already have one) for use with certain equine activities. They're just not optimal. Like with Naysmith, who rode 10,000 miles from South Africa into Europe in 1971/72. He started with saddle that had an "English" style tree (Australian stock saddle if memory serves), but ended up dumping it early (relatively speaking) in the trip and switched to the UP saddle which worked out much better (displaces more weight). Of course I love his ride because it pretty much trashed the argument some make about horses needing shoes. He rode unshod for 10,000 miles with some of it on horribly brutal terrain. Well conditioned feet are what's needed, not shoes (Xenophon said all that about 2,500 years ago and Greece has some brutal terrain, but Europeans sort of forgot about it after 1,000 years). That's a different story though and I'm already treading off topic ))).


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Very interesting stuff.

I've caused soreness to horses in the loin area by riding in older style english saddles that were too narrow in the channel at the rear. 
I've seen western saddles that were too long meaning they interfered with the hip movement that caused soreness and rubbing.









With most saddle designs, the rider sits about halfway between the shoulder and hip, english or western or aussie. Even if the saddle extends farther back, the rider does not sit behind the last rib, and I think the biggest issue is interference with the hip from the back and spinal clearance.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Posted at the same time as @its lbs not miles.
Interesting points, and those types of rides are very different from regular endurance.
Off topic but two good books on the topic are Tschiffely's Ride and Last of the Saddle Tramps which I just got for Christmas and was an entertaining and historical book about a woman who rides from Maine to California in the 50s.
Many people who do these types of rides bring a second horse for a pack horse.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Very interesting write up. But after examining pictures of a brand new hand crafted UP, I still have doubts about the Western tree being easier on horses over longer distances. I say doubts, not a confirmed opinion.
> 
> The UP looks like many of the pack saddle designs I have looked at. I like it. If I had $2,500 to spend on a saddle I would buy one. Look at that rope hammock. But the big deal is that after the pommel is adjusted to a horse, the bars are self adjusting and "float" into position on the horses back. And move with the horse if the ends of the bars happen to rest upon either he shoulders or rump.
> 
> ...


the UP and Western saddle trees actually do have a good bit in common. Their basic design premise is the same (i.e. displace as much weight as possible over the widest possible area while still having a saddle that can be used for perform desired functions) using the same "bar" concept. They sit in the same location on the back, etc... The biggest difference is the pommel and cantle (a solid wood unit vs wood attached to metal), but since neither of these have anything to do with displacing the weight it's the bars that are in common. We can throw in the McClellan saddle which looks more Western bit still with a different pommel and cantle. You can find small variations of most of the wide variety of different saddles that use this same concept. All have long bars, reasonable wide, for displacing more weight. These are actually not new ideas. Look at saddle designs from before the 1700's and from around the world. Most had large bars. As for the problem with the "English" style tree for very extensive riding. It simply doesn't displace as much. Think of it this way. You get on "all fours" and I take a 12" x 12" piece of plywood and attach it on your back just below the shoulder blades. I attach a 200 lb weight on top of the piece of plywood and have you walk around on all fours for about an hour. We then do the same thing, only this time I use a 6" x 6" piece of plywood with 200 lbs. Which one do you think your back is going to favor? If you had to do this 7-8 hours a day 5-7 days a week for 6 months which one would you likely pick? )
All things being equal (proper fit, etc...) that's the amount of weight displaced is the fundamental difference for the horse between the "English" style trees, and the trees with the large bars like the western, UP and other saddles. Doesn't mean using an "English" style tree is going to mess up a horse. As I said, most people don't do the sort of riding where it will matter. It's just a way of addressing the OP's question. From a purely technical perspective the larger weight displacement, like that of a "Western" tree, is better for the horse, but that does not mean that the English style tree isn't completely safe for use under the right conditions. It has it's place. 
I even tried one. I had a lovely stock saddle made in Australia. As a training saddle and for short rides it was fine and I used if for 3 years. After riding 3 - 4 hours my back would start hurting (dressage seats and I don't work well together), but what was worse was that after a few weeks of riding it left my mare with a sore back. Fortunately I was almost home when I could tell she wasn't right and stopped to camp at a friends place about 10 miles from home. So I left my gear with friend who's land I camped on and she endured the last 10 miles to get us home in the morning. I never put that saddle on her back again.. So I gave it to a young, horse crazy, girl so she could keep it or sell it to save up for college . Was actually glad to get rid of it. My back hated that saddle. I even dated a young massage therapist for a while so I could get my back worked on after riding locally (that sounds so terrible to say). I didn't just date her for that, but it was a great fringe benefit .


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Oh, Hondo, just to point out that the two saddles I'm using now are both on western trees and the best fitting saddles I've ever owned. My horses are even handling better with them (not that I noticed any problems before, but I notice the their better handling now). This guy does great work, but it's like a 6 month or longer wait after you get on the list. The closest fitter to me that fits for him is in FL. He has 13 of his own trees at this time. He modifies the best fitting one to match the horse which is why I used one of his fitters who had the trees, took pictures, measurements, etc.. and the result was great. I still like my Trooper, but I've loaned it out since it wasn't fitting as well anymore. It was the first saddle I had made for her when she was almost 5. She's not the same shape anymore.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Additionally, it does look as though the bars on the UP are thin enough to be able to adjust the twist as it is in one of the adjustable pack saddles that I've looked at.


:grin: You might change your mind about being able to adjust the bar twist after you get one. ))))
They're as solid as a Western bar.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> Very interesting stuff.
> 
> I've caused soreness to horses in the loin area by riding in older style english saddles that were too narrow in the channel at the rear.
> I've seen western saddles that were too long meaning they interfered with the hip movement that caused soreness and rubbing.
> ...


Curious-why does this picture, which just makes me wince, want to jerk that rider and saddle off the horse, keep coming up?
Surely it is not meant to represent a good western saddle,that fits both the hrose and the rider, positioned, correctly?????
Read both of those long rider books eons ago(Aime T. any Naysmith
I have seen western saddle trees that were too short,
You also don't put a western saddle tree, meant for an AQHA on an Arabian, and I can see if that were done, with that tree being too long


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

thanks to its lbs not miles, for elaborating as to what i was saying,versus riding a horse days in wilderness, with no support system, versus an endurance horse, which as , I mentioned, has a race component to it, so saddle is striped down, just like a race car or any other devise, meant to cover a certain distance against the clock
This is not the same as a horse working in that back country, sometimes for weeks, no ground crew, rest stops, and not option of being 'pulled'
As I already mentioned, take that race component up a notch, and we have not an English type saddle,used for endurance, but a racing saddle
Those that work in the back country, are not poor riders, unable to ride in an English saddle, thus burden that horse with a western saddle, but professionals, that know what works best for them, and the job they ask their horses to do, same as endurance riders know what works best for them


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Now here's something I had not thought of. A point to ponder.
> 
> Reading on an Australian Saddle Makers site, (from down under), they pointed out that the western roping saddle was the best roping saddle. They also pointed out that because of the need for a very strong pommel and saddle horn area, the rider was required to sit back further than in an Aussie saddle.
> 
> ...


There should be no direct weight on the spine,and why those first treeless saddles were so bad.
The 'new' treeless saddles, are actually hybrids, as they do have a form of bridging, just like a treed saddle


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

So far the discussion has been largely about saddle fit and distribution of weight. That is fair, but limited.

If I had to nitpick on English (which I admit to not being much of an expert on), I'd say most of the photos I see of horses where the rider is literally holding onto the horse's face are English. I didn't say correct English though. 

"Western" is problematic as a term. Even between Arabian Western Pleasure and Quarter Horse Western Pleasure you'll see significant differences, particularly in the headset which has a way of going to the hocks and action as well. 

If you are talking "Stock Horses" or "Performance Horses", well the ground is a big deal too. 

On properly prepared ground, with a good fitting saddle, a rider who doesn't depend on the reins to stay aboard and a horse that is properly conditioned, then it isn't too hard on a horse. Whether or not there are more variables than English is for someone else to say who understands both better than I do.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just a three year old, loping freely , using my balance ride




Candid shot of Charlie, as I did not know hubby had atrail camera set end of our drive way. Same saddle


Same saddle. Fits, does not dig anywhere



my son, using a western saddle, working a cow


Thus, no, a western saddle is not harder on a horse, and, like an English saddle, is designed for work intended. Thus, whether you ride in a western or english saddle is not what counts, but rather how well made that saddle is, and fitted, plus whether the rider rides with balance
If a rider, sits like a sack of potatoes, hangs on the reins for balance, no saddle type is going to compensate


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

jgnmoose said:


> If I had to nitpick on English (which I admit to not being much of an expert on), I'd say most of the photos I see of horses where the rider is literally holding onto the horse's face are English. I didn't say correct English though.


This is what I was thinking too, as I was reading this entire thread. While I've always heard that western saddle distribute weight better than english, the main difference in my mind is that english riders use a lot more contact with the bit and then strap the horse's mouths shut to try to hide the fact that it's uncomfortable for the horse. Just my opinion of course, and I realize that it probably won't be a popular one. 

Western riders often use leverage bits but use a loose rein. The horse learns to listen to the weight of the reins before the bit engages (when everything goes right of course). English riders use a theoretically milder bit most of the time, but make up for it by using constant contact. Then use a noseband because the horse protests the constant contact. 

In my mind, that's what makes english a more stressful discipline for the horse. Of course I know there are a lot of really good english riders too. But I'm just saying I think constant bit contact is stressful for the horse.

There was an article recently on how nosebands are usually too tight on english show horses and how tight nosebands cause stress to the horses. 

Noseband Tightness in Competition Evaluated | TheHorse.com

In my mind, nosebands would only be tight for two reasons. Either they don't want the horse gaping it's mouth in front of the judge ( in dressage) or maybe the tighter noseband helps give more control (eventing/juming?). I don't know as I don't ride english or use a noseband.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Hondo said:


> ...
> 
> They contend that the Aussie saddle which places the riders weight further or closer to the shoulders with less weight on the horse's spine, is easier on the horse.
> 
> ...


While the Aussie saddle might look like a modified dressage saddle in a picture there is as much difference from an Aussie saddle to a dressage saddle as there is between a dressage saddle and a saddle pad. Just saying, because that comment is a bit misleading to someone who hasn't seen one.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> This is what I was thinking too, as I was reading this entire thread. While I've always heard that western saddle distribute weight better than english, the main difference in my mind is that english riders use a lot more contact with the bit and then strap the horse's mouths shut to try to hide the fact that it's uncomfortable for the horse. Just my opinion of course, and I realize that it probably won't be a popular one.
> 
> Western riders often use leverage bits but use a loose rein. The horse learns to listen to the weight of the reins before the bit engages (when everything goes right of course). English riders use a theoretically milder bit most of the time, but make up for it by using constant contact. Then use a noseband because the horse protests the constant contact.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately what you say is all too true. But in the ideal situation the constant contact is more feel than pull so should not be unduly stressful. A light contact allows you to give and receive messages from the horse. Unless things have changed (and I'm sure someone will say) that dropped nosebands are not allowed in dressage, and cavessons should be loose (decoration only) not tight restricting the jaw (though as with everything you see it all). The whole point with dressage is lightness and response and a drop noseband hardly gives that impression. A horse with its mouth gaping is lacking training somewhere or has poor fitting gear, I don't care what level they are at. 

Some people use some tack because it is fashionable or they think it looks cool. Especially younger riders are guilty of this (including me back in the day :neutral The grackle noseband was such an item, and it still seems popular. 

Dressage, while it is the haut école of riding, is a term loosely used from the Spanish Riding School down to first riding lessons. You see a lot of people on here say they don't like (and/or their horse doesn't like) arena/ring work so they don't bother. If your main interest is riding trails mostly alone thats no real issue, its not even an issue in a group as long as you have control of your horse. But a bit of schooling is an advantage to all riders and horses (IMO). 

Where that attitude sits with someone who rides lower level showjumping or x-country you are doing more of a disservice to the horse, because then you are relying the reins too much for control. As you are competing to a higher level I believe riders look for instruction to be more competitive, you can only fudge so much for so long.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

If anyone out there has as English or Aussie saddle that fits so as not to extend past the last rib, I'm wishing one of you would perform this experiment:

Fashion a small shelf, say 1 inch by 1 inch, from a plastic bottle or similar. Then tape it on the back of the saddle with the horizontal portion of the shelf 3/4 to 1 inch above the horse. If worried about tape on the saddle, masking tape can be used but care would need to be taken that the self didn't fall off.

Then go out and ride on both level and steep terrain and check at various times, by reaching back and feeling, the distance between the shelf and the horse.

Here is my experience from the beginning.

After only a few months of riding Hondo I noticed sores that had developed at the back of the saddle. Horrified I began a detailed examination of the bottom of the saddle. I discovered the right bar was broken at about the middle. When the tree was removed from the saddle, the cantle was not damaged at all. The pommel was cracked but not displaced. I could not see how the broken right bar could have caused the sores since they were on both sides but concluded it must have. The left bar was undamaged.

I ordered a new tree from the company that made the saddle. It is a Crates Endurance from the early nineties. I was using the SupraCor endurance pad and in order to keep riding Hondo, the section over the sores was simply cut off leaving the end of the bars suspended above the sores.

The sores are long gone and surprisingly there are no white hairs.

During the time waiting for the new tree I was of course glued to the internet reading all I could find about saddle fit. And of course one of the first sites I studied was Rod Nikkel's saddle shop site. But I read other sites as well. And watched several videos on YouTube about proper saddle fit and position. After all, this was my first horse, my baby so to speak, and he had developed a sore.

So this is the history of me cutting down the SupraCor. Then after all the study I became worried about impacting his shoulders so I cut down the front. I don't remember why I didn't just take more off of the back.

But anyhow, since that time I have been very aware of how much the surface of his back does move behind the last rib relative to the area in front of it. And that movement is much more pronounced on steep terrain. I am thinking that may well be one of the main reasons a western saddle needs to be cinched so tightly on down hills with the ends of the flared bars pushing alternately tend to both wiggle and shove the saddle forward.

I'm not sure what the resolution to the apparent conflict between my experience and the study posted showing little movement behind the last rib is. The study could have been done on level ground, or my experience may be from the muscles bunching up while the vertebrae remains stable. I don't know. I just know what I see.

Hoping someone else is curious enough to experiment with this. 

Finding the scapula: I have read that the hair of the mane ends approximately two inches behind the scapula with the front legs vertical.

Finding the last rib: This is supposed to be located approximately straight up the from the hair line on the side where the hairs are all pointing upward. Where you have to brush upward.

Here is a video of a pack saddle based on the western bar design. I was all for getting one at one time. Until I learned about the negatives of loading the shoulders. And the wiggle in the back. In some ways it is similar to the UP riding saddle which gives me pause also. The movement at the shoulders is described at about minute 2:20.

I am absolutely about distributing the weight over the largest "appropriate" area, but not beyond.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You do not 'haVE to do up that back cinch tight, or even use one in the mountains, on a western saddle.
I rode some pretty steep trails for years without aback cinch, and my husband, who I always have to remind to do up his back cinch, as the day goes on, often rides with that back cinch having inches between it and the hrose-so not functioning, but an invitation for something to get hung up in it
Until last year, when I convinced my son to put aback cinch on his working cowhorse saddle, he climbed many mountains, and descended many steep trails without a back cinch
I chose to start using one, once I became more informed' attending various seminars
I ride also with abreast collar, and was told if you use one, you should also ride with a back cinch, and with that cinch done up
Maybe, if you rode for a week in the mountains, long days, climbing very day to above the treeline, your assessment of the value of aback cinch just might start to match those that make a living riding in mountains
I am not talking of a trail where there is a relatively steep climb, but also relatively short, but climbs that take hours to work your way from the valley to above the treelines
Add some saddle bags loaded with stuff, tied on behind that saddle, a heavy coat and a slicker, and again, the value of that back cinch becomes clearer,

Picture from along time ago, when we did way more packing and climbing up above the treeline, being younger, and you will notice, no back cinch.
That little lake is not at the bottom by any means, but is a high alpine basin, where Rams sometimes hide





Mare off the track, that I trail rode-again, no back cinch




I chose to start using back cinch in the mountains, as I like to think I learned along the way, was open to input from various people, more experienced then I


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Then go out and ride on both level and steep terrain and check at various times, by reaching back and feeling, the distance between the shelf and the horse..." - @Hondo

I could, I suppose, but it is irrelevant to the horse's comfort. The horse's back is not attached to bone in the front. It is in a sling of muscle, which I believe operates as a shock absorber. It also allows a horse to raise and lower its back, at the withers, as needed. There is minor flexing along the back, and in some cases, the rear of the saddle will rise - particularly if the cinch/girth is to the front.

That has nothing to do with ending a saddle at T18 versus on the loin, because the area at T18 and behind remains level with each other.

If you want to totally eliminate that movement, get a saddle tree that bridges. I tried that when getting a custom saddle built. Walk along beside the horse with a tree that bridges, and the tree will stay very stable and maintain contact with the back. It will also sore a horse fast, because it is resting on 4 points, and the motion of the back will cause it to dig into the loin. Or just in front of the loin, if the saddle is short enough.

Bandit's saddle has a little too much rock - the curve from front to back. That reduces the area weight is distributed, but prevents the back from being gouged. In talking to the folks at Steele and to @SouthernTrails (who used to moderate here), it is better to err on the side of too much rock than too little.

BTW - here is a photo of Mia & I, making our first ever (for both of us!) attempt at a full stop from a canter using my Australian saddle (total length 22"). Notice what the saddle blanket is doing, and I'm pretty sure that implies the same is happening to the saddle:








​ 
I don't know if a center-fired rig would reduce that, but it isn't a "fault". It's a "feature" which prevents the saddle from digging in behind.

Bandit and I at a canter. If one looks at the video, the rear of the saddle lifts a little at parts of the stride, then comes back down. When it comes down, it rolls down instead of pokes down:








​ 
And no, I'm not a good rider. My flaws may accentuate things - but that is relevant to looking at how forgiving a saddle is. A saddle that rolls back down is more forgiving than one that slaps down. I also regularly carry a big knife in my rear pocket - a Buck Ranger that day - so I'll notice if my rump comes down hard.

But in terms of where the saddle ends, a shorter saddle will only apply the pressure to a smaller area - because the horse's back doesn't flex much at the loin. Any significant flexing there would damage the bones of the spine and cripple the horse. A horse will do anything it can to prevent that from happening.

Some good reading:

The problems with too-short bars

Why does my saddle lift up at the back? Part one

Flat on round and round on flat - a paradox

You can also have flatter or rounder English saddles - banana shaped or flat. My Bates AP saddle was too flat, and tended to press into my horse. The CC saddle was a little rounder, which fit her better in that direction - but it also had a narrower channel which fit worse. Lots of things go into saddle fit!


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## Sherian (Aug 28, 2012)

a poorly fitted saddle is a problem irregardless of discipline 
a poor english rider in a snaffle with a death grip on the mouth is a problem
a poor western rider in a curb doing the snatch/jerk and drop is a problem
a poorly conditioned horse being asked to do manuevers that he is not fit enough or schooled enough to do irregardless of whether it is a sliding stop or jumping a big oxer is a problem

note the common point - it is human lack of education that is harder on the horse not the discipline.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo, did you read the info, concerning a western saddle, and how that saddle is positioned correctly? I don't think so, as you still are fixated upon the shoulders being loaded-absolutely wrong
Charlie has a nice short back, even so, look at the picture of her, several posts back, and tell me the back of that saddle is interfering with movement
A good fitting saddle is a good fitting saddle, whether western or English, and then, the most important factor becomes on how balanced that rider rides, how much feel in his hands.
All those professionals that design saddles, which best work for the job they ask their horses to do, are not exactly ignorant


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Oh snap! I misstated about where the last rib is. It is the hair line or part or whatever it's called in FRONT of the one that has to be brushed up on. Just going out for a ride and realized that when grooming Hondo.

Loading the front legs and unloading the spine does not equate to placing weight on the shoulders smilie. Looks like you're back up to your old tricks of "imagining things" about people.

Gotta go. Three horses going out for a stroll.

Later


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Maybe this video will help. The bar pads are not the outer edge of the front of that saddle


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's the deal smilie. One can go to various websites where there are claimed and certified saddle fitters that know all about horse anatomy. But when one does, many of these experts distinctly disagree with one another.

Same thing on going to videos. Same thing on reading anywhere. Same thing on here, the forum.

So a person has got to read, listen, and watch until they get to the point of information overload. Then they have to take all that, plus their own personal experiences and observations, and come to the best conclusion that they can based on that information.

I, and I think most or all posters on this thread, have reached that conclusion. At this point I don't really see any new information that can be had.

So there you have it, another of continuing disagreements among equestrians.

It was fun. I did learn a few things. I enjoyed the ride. Only had to go back after Dragon twice.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I just ordered a book and may have more educated remarks to make (hopefully) someday.

https://www.amazon.com/Suffering-Silence-Exploring-Saddle-Fit-Psychological/dp/1570766533

Also just read this illuminating article from thehorsesback.com which I did subscribe to. A very worrisome article to me, but very informative for me and all.

Spinalis Header - The Horse's Back 

I felt I'd be remiss if I did not share.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Very interesting article! Thank you for sharing. I will have to save that one and study it more. I agree also with the newer research that the nuchal ligament is not as prominently tied into the idea of "roundness" as was previously thought.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Thank you @gottatrot. I realize the book I ordered, Suffering in Silence, about saddle fitting is written by a saddle manufacturer, but the title plus the article I posted made sweat beads pop out on my brow.

I've spent a long time learning feet and I'm about there on feet. Time to move to the back and it's long over due.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I found the source that indicated the back of the horse's shoulder lined up with the end of the mane.

And by a master saddle fitter at that. 

I am really puzzled by those who have found contradictions to this.

I have not as yet checked the rest of the herd, but the three in my care conform to what he says.

The claimed info on the mane/shoulder location is in the first 60 seconds of the video.

The people who have horses whose mane seems to go far behind the shoulder have considerable experience with horses and it's hard for me to believe they are wrong about the location of the shoulder but it is equally hard for me to believe Schleese is wrong.

https://schleese.com/fitting-tip/balance/#video_button


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Hondo, you are also dealing generally with only one breed of horse. There are significant differences in anatomy between breeds, for instance, an Arabian has one less vertebrae and one less rib than a QH. A Caspian horse has an upside down shaped scapula. 

Then there are the trotting breed horses, where the shoulder can be located in a different area relative to the withers generally. You might find this article of interest. 

https://www.morganhorse.com/upload/photos/904TMH_Jan2015_PhysiologyofTrottingBreeds.pdf

"You will observe that the shoulder bones of a trotting horse, when in motion, push up into the neck; the shoulder bones of a running horse pull downward, over the rib cage."


This article led me to believe, based on the location of Oliver's scapula, as well as his conformation, that he is a trotting breed of some sort and explained why he had such a butter smooth jog compared to my QH's.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hondo, you are also dealing generally with only one breed of horse.


If it were only my three horses in question, I could easily write it off to my three horses.

But in my recent searching and reading on saddle fit I stumbled upon the original source of the mane/shoulder dilemma.

The video is by Jochen Schleese a, certified master fitter, is on the faculty of the German Riding School, is a published author on saddle fit, which I have on order, (Suffering in Silence), and seems to have worked with many different breeds in many different disciplines.

So that has me bothered. But at the same time I have high regard for both you and gottatrot's observations.

Ah me. What's a poor greenhorn to do? If he's wrong about that one thing, then what else is he wrong about? There seems to be no end to the pitfalls and dilemmas down the rabbit hole into which I have crawled. :shrug:


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It is commonly true that the mane ends at the back of the shoulder. But when we say shoulder we mean scapula or shoulder blade, and that angle can vary in comparison to the spinous processes that make up the withers. So I'd say the mane usually comes down to the end of the withers, which usually line up with the scapula. But that's not always true.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My saddle pad covers my horse's withers and mane before I toss the saddle on...








​ 







​ 
And where does Trooper's mane end? Does it even exist?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Early morning thoughts........

I would like to sit in on a debate between Rod Nikkel and Jochen Schleese on the OP's topic.

I can almost hear Jochen saying, "There is no western saddle existing that fits any existing horse. None will pass my 9 points of fit. I can prove it".

And I can hear Rod saying, "Unless the rider has the availability of trained and competent saddle fitter to reflock and adjust on site every 6 to 12 months, my saddle will fit better and do less damage. A hard lump that develops in the wool flocking provides constant pressure that damages the horse. My bars do not develop lumps".

And then I hear a foam filled panel manufacturer on the back row quietly claiming under his breath that his foam panels do not develop lumps and they conform to the horse better than any western bar.

And as I listen to these arguments I wonder:

If a saddle, whether english or western, comes in only three different widths and three different angles, how can it fit any horse beyond some compromise?

Unless a saddle tree is adjustable in both angle and width, how can it possible fit a horse beyond some compromise? And even then, without the bars of a western saddle being especially carved for a particular horse or in some way having material added for fit, either flocking or rigid, it still won't really fit beyond some compromise.

And the actual contact area of the panels or bars being buried beneath layers of ornate leather makes it more difficult to check fit than need be.

To me the question becomes, how much am I willing to compromise? I know if it's my backside getting sore, I'm not willing to compromise much. Problem is, it can be difficult to know when the horse is sore due to their stoic nature until the sores or white hair appears. Wasting muscle might be so gradual as to be not noticed.

These thoughts are encouraging my thoughts toward Parrelli's inflatable Theraflex pad.

Anyone have any experience with this pad?


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

I confess that I have not read all of the way thru this thread, so pardon it if I am reiterating something already mentioned, but . . .

Folks, the Equine back was _not_ designed to carry a load, any more than the human frame was designed to do so.

Consider: Sure, you can toss an 80lb bag of cement on your shoulder and carry it. For a little while. If you drop it into a backpack, you will be more comfortable under the load. If you re-package the cement into ziploc baggies, and then carefully pack them to properly distribute the weight, you will probably be able to carry that 80lb on down the trail. Extremes of temperature, altitude, incline and/or rough terrain will reduce your comfort zone; anywhere from "some" to "miserable" . . .

Your poor horse faces a similar situation. Having your fat a$$ on his back is inherently uncomfortable for him; I'm sure if you were to solicit his opinion, he would opt _not_ to carry you. But he loves (or fears) you, and will _try_ to be accommodating, often working well beyond his pain threshold for you.

Does this sound grim? Well . . .

As a rider, and regardless of the saddle (or un-saddle) you choose to use, you need to understand that you are causing your horse a certain amount of discomfort by being on his back, and do everything in your power to make his job as painless as possible:

The saddle needs to _fit_ his back, without pressure points, without pinching, without pressing on his spinal processes, and without interfering with his motor musculature; hip or shoulder. It needs to be as light as possible, consistent with the above. The cinch/girth needs to be comfortable; not too tight, and not rubbing in his arm-pits. In addition, you need to consider heat buildup and chaffing, under the saddle, and particularly in the girth area.

Furthermore, you need to perfect your timing and balance so that you move with him instead of flopping around like a particularly ungainly saddle bag. And finally, you need to put yourself, and your kit on a diet, so as to minimize his burden.

Down off of my soapbox now . . .



Hondo said:


> These thoughts are encouraging my thoughts toward Parrelli's inflatable Theraflex pad.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with this pad?



Hondo, the Theraflex pad is ugly as sin, but it really does work as advertised, and as a bonus, it can be shimmed if necessary. I'm not a huge Parelli fan, but this is one instance where they seem to have nailed it.

Mostly I use the Theraflex pad with my elderly Paint, Banjo. I use it because it does a superior job of cushioning and protecting his 100yo ("horse" years; 33 human years this spring) back. He uses Oily's Passier Dressage saddle, which, in addition to being very light, fits him well. I have used the Theraflex extensively with Oily as well, but he seems to like the recently acquired Supracor "English" pad, and it keeps his back cooler. I do not have a lot of time on him with the Supracor under his Dressage saddle, so take this with a grain of salt.

Steve


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Hondo -- That's why you get custom tack? ;D


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hear hear. Very nice soapbox. Agree on every point.

As I recall, the human body is designed to carry 30 pounds max. Don't know how that figure came about or how the 30 pounds was to be distributed, or even if my recollection is accurate.

I have thought about Theraflex pad in the past. Have heard good and bad reports but mostly good as was yours.

I have some experience with inflatable pads. One is as Exped inflatable backpacking sleeping mattress. It's only about 3 inches thick and I have slept many nights on the ground and when on my side my shoulder did not quite reach the ground. Excellent pad. Can't say enough.

And I have a small pad, the Airhawk2, that is designed for a hard, narrow, dual sport motorcycle seat. That little pad made what was an uncomfortable 20 mile ride comfortable for 200 miles.

I got a seam in the wrong place riding Hondo and before I knew it I was oozing. Scabbed over though I was, I wanted to ride the next day. I strapped the AirHawk2 on the saddle and wala! Rode all day without the slightest discomfort.

Next week I will recieve my first panel saddle. A WWII model. I have delved into 101 flocking and panel maintenance. Then I found air flocking. Flair - The Adjustable Air Flocking System

They use four bags and explain why and how they are adjusted. Based on my own personal experience with the two items I've used, air flocking done correctly seems to be the absolutely nicest thing one could do for their horses's (or mule's) back short of staying completely off.

Based on the two motorcycle air seats that I have, I see no reason why the same could not be designed for western bars. I think it's likely a matter of time.

The section on the No. of Bags ( Flair - The Adjustable Air Flocking System ) made me wonder if Parelli's design could use some tweaking that would do away with the need for shimming.


Edit: Zexious, we crossed. My comment would be that if an absolutely perfectly fitting custom saddle was made and purchased, from winter to summer the horse could change and still not fit. I was talking to the owner of Outfitters Supply and he said he had two saddles for his main horse. One for the spring when he was fat from no winter riding and one for when the fat got ridden off.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hondo said:


> Hear hear. Very nice soapbox. Agree on every point.


Well, thanks. The one-saddle-fits-all philosophy is one of my pet peeves. Kinda like going shopping for shoes and finding Small, Medium, and Large 



Hondo said:


> I have some experience with inflatable pads. One is as Exped inflatable backpacking sleeping mattress. It's only about 3 inches thick and I have slept many nights on the ground and when on my side my shoulder did not quite reach the ground. Excellent pad. Can't say enough.


Well then. The Theraflex pad is made by (or at least the internals are) the ThermaRest air mattress people. If you haven't looked at these, they are self-inflating by virtue of some sort of expanding foam that is compressible, but recovers it's shape when released from pressure. You release the air valve, toss it in your tent, and let it expand/inflate. When you are ready for bed, you close the air valve, lay on it in your preferred sleeping position, and slowly let out some air until the mattress conforms to your body shape. The backpacking version is only about an inch thick, so it isn't real deluxe, but all things considered it does a remarkable job.

The Theraflex pad is set up the same way; you let it inflate, install the saddle, and then let some air out to allow it to conform to the horses back. It fills gaps, and relieves pressure points quite effectively within the (estimated) 3/4inch thickness available. If more compensation is needed, your saddle really doesn't fit properly, but the option to add shims is there, i.e. for the animal who is recovering lost top-line or has conformation issues.

However, the Theraflex pad is impermeable, and so is subject to heat buildup. Your Supracor pad acts in very much the same way, and _does_ breathe, which makes it a better choice for when the saddle fits and you're just looking for cushioning and pressure distribution.

I'm sure you already know this, but for those who haven't heard the gospel; the Supracor technology was designed for hospital beds, and as such probably has more detailed testing and certification behind it than any other piece of tack you can buy: "Yes, Jane, it _does_ work." I use Supracor in preference over the Theraflex except where an absolute maximum amount of isolation seems indicated. (Riding a 33yo horse who absolutely insists on walk-trot-canter 

ByeBye! Steve


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Yep, was aware that SupraCor is in the hospital/wheelchair comfort business. I've even talked to them on the phone about material for a pack saddle pad. They sell other material but not the honeycomb of the Supracor. Another nice thing about the Supracor is that it never packs down.

And yep, I knew that about Theraflex. In fact my sleeping mat has a built in pump which is made of that foam. Using two hands, the foam is compressed and released to pump up the mat. Takes about 60 seconds. It's worth the trouble to me as the mat folds up extremely small and light yet is as comfortable as the Sealy extra firm I normally sleep on.


.......................................................................................................................................................

Got money?

Here is a manufacturer claim that goes to the heart of the OP's inquiry.

"The square inches of support surface produced by this saddle is greater than that of
a western saddle!"

Page 6 of 26

http://www.fteltd.co.uk/FTEBrochure.pdf


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The Korrector saddle pad described at the bottom of the PDF brochure is manufactured by the same as the air flocking system.

It comes in either western or english and like the air flocking system has four compartments that can be adjusted individually or two at a time, front and back for balance, while sitting on the horse.

Rather than use the padding shims of the Pirelli system for sway back or other deformities or irregularitiess, air is added while the rider is seated and can in fact be done by the rider while seated.

The price is around $300 which is comparable to both Pirelli and Supracor. I think I'd still use a thin Supracor just for cooling.

WOW even makes a western looking saddle on an english tree. First time I've seen that!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Hondo, do you really expect that your horse's anatomy will change that drastically twice a year? Every year?

I just feel like I'm missing something...


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Ok, if you insist on the actual truth of the matter, I ain't got enough money for a custom saddle. But I do for a Korrector saddle pad which unless I find out something bad about them, I plan to get one.

I do have some daydreaming fantasies about a longer pack trip. If that were to happen which isn't likely, Hondo would likely change pretty drastically in shape and size, as reported from those who have done it.

And in terms of custom saddles, most are based on a narrow, medium, and wide gullet with three slopes and 2 or 3 twists. They may be custom with a lot of tooling on top but in reality most custom saddles have trees that are compromised averages.

I have yet to see the recommended measurements on a custom saddle site ask for the length from the shoulders to the last rib.

I have seen a few that actually will build bars or panels to a specific horse's back but not many.

With either of the air systems above, every saddle will be custom molded to each horse's back and fit better than any custom saddle built.

The air flocking actually had a shoot out with an expert flocker and the pressure pad recordings showed the air won. Sort of like when John Henry tried to beat the mechanical spike driver.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Zexious said:


> Hondo, do you really expect that your horse's anatomy will change that drastically twice a year? Every year?
> 
> I just feel like I'm missing something...


And this.......not from me but from the manufacturer of Korrector pads.

Quote: "It is a well known problem that horses change shape making it difficult to ensure that the saddle conforms to the shape of the horse’s back at all times. Even when a saddle fits a horse well, over the course of a year, changes in diet or level of fitness will result in changes of muscle structure and the shape of the horse’s back. Therefore a saddle that originally fitted well may no longer fit the horse. Many people find it difficult to get a saddle fitter to visit to re-flock or adjust the saddle and need to resort to saddle pads to take up the difference."

» Why Use KorrectorKorrector


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Hondo said:


> And this.......not from me but from the manufacturer of Korrector pads.
> 
> Quote: "It is a well known problem that horses change shape making it difficult to ensure that the saddle conforms to the shape of the horse’s back at all times. Even when a saddle fits a horse well, over the course of a year, changes in diet or level of fitness will result in changes of muscle structure and the shape of the horse’s back. Therefore a saddle that originally fitted well may no longer fit the horse. Many people find it difficult to get a saddle fitter to visit to re-flock or adjust the saddle and need to resort to saddle pads to take up the difference."
> 
> » Why Use KorrectorKorrector


I haven't had this problem. And, I'm a nut about checking my saddle fit every ride. When I got Bart he was 12 and FAT! Ugh! Rode him bareback for the first month. Borrowed a moderately decent saddle and didn't buy one until I'd had him for 5 or 6 months. It fit him well for many years. Yes, winter coat could account for a little space but when we would get going and he warmed up his winter coat would "lay down" and I'd have to tighten the cinch. 

Flash forward to about 25 years old. By this time, his body had changed enough that we were looking at a new saddle. Plus, I'd gained some weight so it was time. I found at that time, that he still needed fqb but a different cut of saddle. So for the next several years we rode in a Cactus Trail Saddle and he went well in it. I will say though, that I always had two saddle pads for every horse. One to be using and one being cleaned, brushed and dried. Thus always having a clean pad.

My mare is percheron/Quarter Horse cross. She's built different than anything I've ever ridden. Low withers, wide body, long back, but short girth. Weird. Finally settled on a Circle Y Flex tree in wide width for her. It's the only saddle that she doesn't buck and has excellent sweat spots in. She's 13 or 14 now and I anticipate having to revisit her fit at some point. But the same saddle pad rule applies. Always clean and in good condition.

I've tried one of those Air ride pads and it broke down and was worse within 6 months. I just can't afford to buy a new one every 6 months when I can make a good 5 Star or Professionals Choice last 2 years or more.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hi @Blue

Good on you for keeping the pads clean. I believe that makes a huge difference. Otherwise I could see them as what I'm learning about old bunched up and lumpy flocking.

I looked up Air Ride pads and they are all felt. Nothing about air at all. I've had the Supracor pad I use for over two years with considerable riding and it is unchanged. It'll be the same in 20 years from now I'm sure. Maybe I'll still be here.

Now the Korrector has no felt and no wool and no honeycomb structure as does the Supracor. The Korrector is just four air bags with a system of adjustment.

This thread has rattled my brain, (lots of room in there for stuff to rattle around), and I've just went off the deep end fretting about saddle fit. And the more I read and study, the more I worry and fret.

There are lots of people I'm sure, I know a few, who have done as you have done and have had no problem. But after learning about hoof care, and seeing what has been done by so many for so many years that has not been good for horses, I'm just concerned that I may be missing something on Hondo's back. I'm about 165 lbs and he is only 14hh after all.

To feed my stress I have ordered a book entitled, "Suffering In Silence", which is about saddle fitting.

As you know, I'm new at all this. Like a new parent with first child when many others are on the 5th or 6th and just say, "don't worry, it'll all be ok".

And of course the weather has had something to do with it also. It's been raining and about my only indoor activity is researching anything and everything on the net.

I just barely got back today before the skies opened up. So here I am, back inside.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

For what that Air Ride cost it should have been gold trimmed.

I think there comes a point where we have to know that we're doing our best for our horses. They are all built differently and most carry themselves a little differently, but the theory remains the same spread the weight evenly and do as little harm as possible. Let's face it Hondo. Keeping these horses in captivity and riding them to do our chores or for pleasure is not a natural way for them. 

Seems to me that as long as we provide well fitting "clothes" , shelter, nutrition and love, then we've done what we could.

Not to say that things can't change and improve. Heaven knows I've learned so much due to mistakes in my life its pathetic. But the point is... I learned. 

There are sooooo many wonderful new products out there, and many are well intended and useful. But I truly believe that many are still "snake oil" designed to get money and do no more than what we already have.

I prefer to find what works for me, my animals, my lifestyle and my budget and call it good.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> ...most are based on a narrow, medium, and wide gullet with three slopes and 2 or 3 twists. They may be custom with a lot of tooling on top but in reality most custom saddles have trees that are compromised averages.
> 
> I have yet to see the recommended measurements on a custom saddle site ask for the length from the shoulders to the last rib.
> 
> I have seen a few that actually will build bars or panels to a specific horse's back but not many...


The truth is that western saddles are a forgiving design, and most rider and most horses ARE OK with a few choices. Perfect fit just is not needed.

No one asked me about Mia's last rib when looking at trees, but they could see the pictures and anyways...pretty much all western saddle trees extend past the last rib. And that is, according to people like the Nikkels and Steele and SouthernTrails, a "So what?" situation.

If I wanted a truly custom, extremely close fit, Steele recommended their SE tree with a little extra flair on the front. Steele had no problem with doing that for the 95% solution. Or I could use standard semi-quarter horse bars and have the 90% solution. For Mia. At that month.

Mia's saddle is more like the 85% solution for Bandit (or 80%), but that is OK. It doesn't poke, it doesn't interfere with his shoulders, it keeps weight away from the muscles along his spine, it doesn't move or shift around on his back when we go up or down steep spots...the 80% solution IS plenty good enough.

The tree does extend over his loins. I say over because I can slip my fingers in two inches past the tree while we're walking. 80% solution. Contact is made at a canter. If he minds, he hides it well. 

BTW - If Trooper's back has changed shape significantly over the last 9 years, I haven't caught it. Looking at 9 year old pictures...only thing now is he hasn't been ridden much the last 6 months and isn't "riding fit". But it still isn't enough to affect saddle fit.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> If Trooper's back has changed shape significantly over the last 9 years, I haven't caught it.


But are you a trained professional?



bsms said:


> Perfect fit just is not needed.


So says who??




bsms said:


> pretty much all western saddle trees extend past the last rib. And that is, according to people like the Nikkels and Steele and SouthernTrails, a "So what?" situation.


Agreed, all properly designed western trees extend beyond the last rib. The missing part is that those properly designed western trees slope up after the last rib so that the pressure stops there except when maneuvering and then not much pressure is placed behind the last rib.

The problem arises when the flare begins behind the last rib. That is a problem. And it is very difficult on a western saddle to tell where that flare begins.

That's what.



bsms said:


> ...the 80% solution IS plenty good enough.


Again, for whom and says whom?

If I finally conclude that 80% is the very best that I can do for Hondo, I will accept that. Until then, I will not. At the moment, I am firmly convinced I can do much much very much better than that based on the leading edge of saddle fit technology.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_The problem arises when the flare begins behind the last rib_."

Evidence? A saddle that POKES there is a problem, but yes...lots of western saddle trees extend there, not just the flare, but the support part of the tree. We also KNOW the back cannot flex significantly there due to the shape and closeness of the vertebrae. The saddle I originally used on Mia extended well onto her loin, and she loved the saddle - even though it was also too wide.

"_But are you a trained professional?_"

No...but I know the shape of Trooper's back as well as anyone in the world. I see it daily, and have, for 9 years. I can also look at pictures from 9 years ago, and I can also see how he acts under saddle.

"_Again, for whom and says whom?_"

Well...the Nikkels, Steele (the largest maker of western saddle trees in the world), SouthernTrails (former moderator here and a great guy to talk to, has saddles custom made for people based on his looking at how the trees fit, etc).

If you want to go for perfect fit, have a nut. But the folks who have done it professionally, for thousands of horses in the case of Steele, say it is NOT necessary.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> "_The problem arises when the flare begins behind the last rib_."
> 
> Evidence?


The evidence that compels my own personal believe/opinion is the simple fact that I have never read any professional saying it was not a problem and have read plenty that say it is a problem.

And your evidence that all of these people/sources are wrong?



bsms said:


> A saddle that POKES there is a problem, but


Starting a paragraph with a no brainer does mean the rest that follows is a no brainer.




bsms said:


> The saddle I originally used on Mia extended well onto her loin, and she loved the saddle - even though it was also too wide.


Loved a saddle that was too wide and sat on her loin and likely her ovaries as well? I seriously question this and I'm certain any saddle fitter would as well.



bsms said:


> "_But are you a trained professional?_"
> 
> No...but


Thank you.



bsms said:


> "_Again, for whom and says whom?_"
> 
> Well...the Nikkels, Steele (the largest maker of western saddle trees in the world), SouthernTrails (former moderator here and a great guy to talk to, has saddles custom made for people based on his looking at how the trees fit, etc).


These people say 80% is just good enough? I doubt that but if they do they would certainly not get any of my business.




bsms said:


> If you want to go for perfect fit, have a nut.


You are putting words in my mouth that I did not speak. I have neither said nor alluded to any desire for a perfect fit. My quest is for the best fit I can provide for Hondo. There is no perfection in hardly anything, if anything.

I do wish to "go for" better than 80%. If that makes me a nut, then I am a 100% certifiable nut and proud of it.



bsms said:


> But the folks who have done it professionally, for thousands of horses in the case of Steele, say it is NOT necessary.


If they in fact say that as you claim, it would only be because they have no means to provide for anything better while being more interested in selling pretty tooling.

We have both referred to "professionals" to cover things we may not be able to speak directly and knowledgeable about.

Well, there are professionals and there are professionals.

An example:

I have thought of the American Farrier Association as a the most professional farrier association around. In a recent search for the treatment of thrush using copper sulfate I came across an article by AFA. They discussed thrush and the treatment without reference to what caused it. When I saw this picture referenced in the article I re-read closely and found no reference to any problem with the foot shown other than some thrush and it's treatment.

This is a topic I can speak directly to as I intend to be able on saddle fit eventually.

How would you rate this foot? 80%? 70% What?


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Hondo, of course the manufacturer would say that: they're looking to sell their product. 
It's absolutely possible that a horse could 'outgrow' a saddle--especially if you're really focusing on building their topline or they have been out of work for several months or longer. But to say this happens every year, multiple times a year, and this one saddle pad is the only one that can fix it seems absurd.

I think what you've said in one of your other posts was true--you've 'gone off the deep end with saddle fitting' xD [your words, not mine]. Remember: the simplest answer is often the correct one


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

True true, I did say that and I have. Did the same with feet and that was/is a good thing.

The feet are complicated. Not rocket science to be certain, but to say they are simple would not be correct.

Same with the horse's back rider position et al. Not simple. More and more complicated as I progress. But that's fine. Learning has always been one of my main recreational activities.

Agree 100% on what manufacturer's say. I haven't ran off and bought anything yet. And I won't until I've collected an array of non-biased user reports, although those can sometimes be contradictory and troublesome.

Here are the last two articles I just did finish reading. But alas, they too are produced by a manufacture. But they are informative.

I doubt there are many that could read it without learning something of value.

http://www.fnesaddles.com/uploads/PDFs/SaddleFitting1.pdf

http://www.fnesaddles.com/uploads/PDFs/SaddleFitting2.pdf


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Hondo, you misquote me. I'm not saying the _issue_ is simple, I'm saying the _answer_ is.
Not to derail the thread, but I think this applies to feet, as well. Even corrective shoeing has not experienced drastic changes in many decades. The minimum is almost always preferred in all circumstances.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

@Hondo I think one of the issues you are going to come across if you haven't already is that the very best saddle makers are either booked up for years, retired, or they have passed on. 

Larry Trocha put it best. Most saddle makers are not horseman, they are craftsman in the business of making and selling saddles. Quite a few of the brands are really mass produced by one shop and stamped with whatever brand. We have one of the mass producers here where I live, Teskeys. 

A lot of info when talking about tack is usually a pitch to buy their product. Even the afore mentioned videos by Larry Trocha are (surprise) a lead up to a pitch to buy saddles personally designed by him and made by one of the big saddle shops. 

For as perfect a fit as you can achieve for one horse you are probably going to have to find a saddle maker like Freckers who makes their own trees and makes it to measure for your horse. 

On the other hand a lot of really good horseman have one or two really well made saddles they ride everything in. I don't know him personally, but I have heard that Thomas Saunders rides a Bob Marrs saddle he bought as a teenager. That is impressive both in how old that saddle is and in how many horses it has been on.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hondo, the Nikkels and Steele and SouthernTrails all make, sell and accept saddle trees that extend on the loins. It is NORMAL for a western saddle. The Nikkels qualify as experts and they discuss why they refuse to make saddle trees with short bars.

Even English saddle makers are not united on it being a problem, but western trees are designed differently from English ones.

"_Loved a saddle that was too wide and sat on her loin and likely her ovaries as well? I seriously question this and I'm certain any saddle fitter would as well._"

Question anything you want. But she acted eager, forward, relaxed and HAPPY in it. Maybe the tree still had enough contact over enough area and simply didn't poke anywhere. But after 7 years of riding Mia, using two English, two Australian and 3 western saddles, I feel pretty comfortable in assessing how content she was in any given saddle.

If saddle fitters want to tell me otherwise, they can. But MIA was happy. And I knew her better than anyone else in the world.

And one of the points the Nikkels explain is why it makes no sense to worry about kidneys and ovaries and any other internal organs in terms of saddle fitting:

You're sitting on his kidneys! Get off!










All western saddles extend over the loin

"The response of the researcher to that question was also pretty plain: "The ribs and overlying epaxial muscles support the saddle in the thoracic region and the lumbar transverse processes and the overlying middle gluteal muscle support the saddle in the lumbar region. If horses were really this “weak” at the thoracolumbar junction then no one would be able to ever ride a horse." "

Can the loin of the horse carry weight?

There could be differences with an English or Australian saddle based on a different design. But pretty much EVERY western saddle tree does, and there is no evidence of harm.

"_These people say 80% is just good enough? I doubt that but if they do they would certainly not get any of my business._"

The bars on my custom made saddle run about 22" long. Because of excessive rock, the last 2 inches do not make regular contact. That reduces the weight distribution area by about 10%. If I decided to have a saddle made that did not go past T18, I'd need an 18-19" tree maximum, which would result in a smaller area. 100% perfect fit, limited to T18, is no better than 85% coverage with my current saddle.

And I used 80% rather than 90% because I wanted to be conservative.

In distributing weight over a larger area, there isn't much getting around length times width. If you limit length to 18 or 19 inches, then all you have left to work with is width. Since the horse is only so wide, all you can really adjust is how close to the spine you put pressure.

I watches the third video in a saddle choosing series by Larry Trocha last night. He made the point that the width of the tree is limited both by the width of the horse and the comfort of the rider. Get the tree too wide, and the rider won't be able to ride balanced, so saddle makers accept loss of area in order to get a better balanced rider while keeping weight away from the spine.

What you do with Hondo is your own business. You are welcome to experiment in any way you wish, buy any saddle you wish, any tree - totally your business. I'm sharing what I've seen in using 7 saddles with Mia and heard while spending hours on the phone with people who make saddles. I've spent another couple of hours listening to Larry Trocha's thoughts on saddle design just this week. 

Do anything with Hondo you wish, but the idea that virtually all western saddles are badly designed doesn't match the millions of healthy and happy western horses.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> Do anything with Hondo you wish, but the idea that virtually all western saddles are badly designed doesn't match the millions of healthy and happy western horses.


There you go again @bsms, putting words in my mouth that I did not speak. Most of the western saddles flare upward and off the horse at the last rib.

If you and Trocha want to angle your cinch and not worry about the saddle inching forward onto the shoulders, you now have my explicit permission to do so.

And if you want to default to Rod Nikkel as being the world's foremost authority on equine anatomy and whether a horse should bear weight on his loins, you also have my explicit permission to do that.

For myself, naw, I don't think so.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hey, Hondo!

Can't remember if mentioned in this thread or not, but weren't you looking for Supracor honeycomb material? Found this on eBay:

Supracor Stimulite Thermoplastic Honeycomb Impact Absorbing Pad for Body Armor | eBay

ByeBye! Steve


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