# this is going to tan alot of peoples hides (Sorry)



## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

While I completely agree with the point of the post, being that grades are better than expensive registered horses (aside from the paints, appys, and QHs, imo). I'd also like to argue your last point-just because they aren't as hot as some registered, pure horses; there's no truth in saying that they won't ever win you money in shows. My friend has a grade pony that we both ride, and both he and his lease show. His times for games could get him to atleast states (if his lease wouldn't hold him back, or learn a better seat since he's the babysitter type), if not regionals. He's won halter classes at state fairs as well. My friend came home (after a week at fair) with over $120, just for the classes he won, not mentioning the classes that his lease won.
But anyway-back to the point: I completely agree with looking at grade horses for the first horse, of you want to do trails, learn to jump, barrel race, show, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uppidycowgirl (Feb 6, 2011)

Won't tan my hide, you cant ride papers and although I have bred QH's in the past, by no means does that make me believe that only register horses have a place in our world... After years of inbreeding, line breeding and just stupid people breeding to "enhance" the breed, I would choose a horse that has the traits I want no matter if it was papered or not!! Too many people will only buy a horse for its breeding or color...... guess you will never be able to fix stupid! Some of the registries allow outside breeds, like Arabians(not bashing them just using them as example), so what you have is a registered mutt that has papers because someone wanted to allow Paints so they could have an Arabian with spots! Paints and QH's allow crossing, course I never understood the reason to have the two separate to begin with... Same dang horse just one day a crop out was thrown and there you go, we get paints.. So I guess with all the different registries out there you can even take a grade horse and get it registered somewhere.. Here in calif the breeds have been so over bred, the industry ran itself into the ground, although I have seen a turn toward people buying good sound riding horses whether they are papered or not... and alot of untrained registered horses are sold by private parties or through the sales for next to nothing... very sad and when they are hauled off to slaughter it doesn't matter if they have papers or not.... (and yes I know slaughter has been outlawed here, but they are still bought and transported to Canada and Mexico whether you want to believe it or not) But as for you post, a unregistered horse can make you money just like any registered horse... find yourself a horse that can run barrels, jump, rope, do timed events and do endurance and it doesnt matter if its registered or not... if its good, it can make you money and will sell for good $$ ;o)


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Iseul said:


> While I completely agree with the point of the post, being that grades are better than expensive registered horses (aside from the paints, appys, and QHs, imo).



Oh ?

So you think that paints,appys, and QH are the ONLY registered horses that are better than a grade horse !


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Well - I say - that there are TONS of people out there breeding "Grade" horses in their backyards on a regular basis...so why add more to the overpopulation as it is?

Why breed, if you aren't improving the line's and the quality of the animals? Why breed "blah" - just to get more "blah"????????????????????????????

My point is - is that it'll cost you just as much, if not more to breed crap, to get crap - when all you have to do is go to a local auction, or someone's back yard , and spend less on a horse that will please you for years to come - instead of adding more unwanted, into this over populated world?


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*good point*



MIEventer said:


> Well - I say - that there are TONS of people out there breeding "Grade" horses in their backyards on a regular basis...so why add more to the overpopulation as it is?
> 
> Why breed, if you aren't improving the line's and the quality of the animals? Why breed "blah" - just to get more "blah"????????????????????????????
> 
> My point is - is that it'll cost you just as much, if not more to breed crap, to get crap - when all you have to do is go to a local auction, or someone's back yard , and spend less on a horse that will please you for years to come - instead of adding more unwanted, into this over populated world?


but like i said breed responsibly. Just use common sense  

and the same could go for purebreds, most of the time you get blah and then you get Secretariat then his offspring were yet again blah same can go for grades


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

Generalizations, and very, no justification for ANY of the points listed.

Grades have bigger feet and bone. Grades are calmer, easier to train, blah blah blah. All nonsense.

Grades aren't even guaranteed to be cheaper. People create made up registries for the grades they produce, and charge 30k for them.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

Ehhh. Better be careful bout breeding mutts a lot, cause that might put them in bad situations. Cause unfortunately not everyone goes for mutts as a show horse, and if you breed and decide to sell that horse might end up at slaughter. 

I agree that mutts are good and sweet horses, but I think you should just get them from auctions rather than breeding them.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*again*

If you aren't showing you and aren't trying to make that next halter point earner but you can train your foal to be the best it could be then why not breed I would rather buy a sound and safe unregistered horse than a half crazy hot headed purebred, not only that but my Paloma and Molly are straighter legged than my registered cochise. lol 
So as long as you know that your unpapered baby will never bring the amount of money, will never go far in the show ring, but will take you all over hell and creation and back as a sturdy trail companion do what you want but always remember to still breed responsibly (don't re breed your mare with in a month of its last foal and always look for homes before hand weather it be your neighbor or whatever, just use common sense)
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/going-tan-alot-peoples-hides-sorry-78367/#ixzz1DlAxandE

I'm not trying to change your minds
but to maybe enlighten a few 
and maybe make it easier to understand 
why we do the things we do.

(Just made that up)

Poet and didn't no it
​


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

I have no problem with grade horses, but just because you CAN breed a grade horse that someone MAY want doesn't mean that you SHOULD. Just because there is a place for them doesn't give instant approval to just go breed your horses because you have found one article to back you up. There is still too much breeding going on, both registered AND not, and absolutely no reason to breed when you can go and BUY a horse that will do exactly what you want without bringing yet another horse into the world to glut the market even more.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

AGAIN - why breed a Mutt to get a Mutt, when you can get one cheap off of Craigslist, out of someone's back yard or at your local auction.

STOP adding more unwanted horses, into this already overpopulated world.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

apachiedragon said:


> I have no problem with grade horses, but just because you CAN breed a grade horse that someone MAY want doesn't mean that you SHOULD. Just because there is a place for them doesn't give instant approval to just go breed your horses because you have found one article to back you up. There is still too much breeding going on, both registered AND not, and absolutely no reason to breed when you can go and BUY a horse that will do exactly what you want without bringing yet another horse into the world to glut the market even more.


We posted at the same time - but I just wanted to say - excellant post, great points and I completely agree!


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## uppidycowgirl (Feb 6, 2011)

apachiedragon said:


> I have no problem with grade horses, but just because you CAN breed a grade horse that someone MAY want doesn't mean that you SHOULD. Just because there is a place for them doesn't give instant approval to just go breed your horses because you have found one article to back you up. There is still too much breeding going on, both registered AND not, and absolutely no reason to breed when you can go and BUY a horse that will do exactly what you want without bringing yet another horse into the world to glut the market even more.


Totally agree, plenty of them already out there, and breeding more doesn't help the horse industry at all!! Exactly why both of my stallions have not bred a mare in over 4 yrs and will not probably breed any time soon... fact they may both be having a visit to the vet to get gelded... )


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## slc (Jan 30, 2011)

About 99% of the people I know who 'bred a horse just for themselves', wind up having to get rid of it at some point, and can't find a buyer. People lose their jobs, get sick, or just, things change.

Especially now, with people trying to give away REGISTERED horses.

That horse 'just for me', just about never really is 'just for me'.

Don't breed anything unless it's a really, really superior animal, top conformation and temperament and soundness. Proven in competition, and top class bloodlines.

Otherwise you're just adding to the problem, and the problem is huge.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I will agree with the original post of a first timer to get a grade horse. Really there's not much sense in spending so much for a horse, only to find out the other costs afterward. 

To the other posts that one is better than the other or not. There are some good ones in each, but there are also ones that are inbred so much just to keep the bloodline or just to make money off of. We do have registered horses and grade horses in our herd. We've spent 1- $400/grade, 2- free but $1500 vet bills/could have been registered, 3- $75/ could still be registered, 4- $3500/registered, 5- $700/registered, 6- $450/registered. 1,5 and 6 are go-anywhere-do-anything horses, 3 is getting there, 4 was trained for arena (not real well) but is finally coming around and still needs work, and 2 is our pasture ornament, because of her injury after birth which didn't heal correctly and can only be lightly rode. As you can see, the price or being registered doesn't always matter. It's the horse that matters.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Well it doesn't tan my hide at all, I agree that grades can make great horses, my first horse was a grade, my pony (and the pony I had before this one) is grade. But I disagree with just about everything else in the article. Yes it's true for some inividuals, but that's the thing about grade horses, they come in every variety. I would say on average grade foals are not handled better, you're more likely to find one that's never been touched, then on that's had proper handling. 

I totally understand the desire to raise you own foal (for yourself, do not understand at all the idea of breeding a grade foal to sell like the article suggests), but I couldn't justify breeding my grade when I could go to craigslist and get an equal quality foal for next to nothing that REALLY needs me.

And I don't think the majority of purebreds should be bred either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

My feeling is that if a grade can do every thing a registered horse who is bred to perform in a discipline then why are there not more grade horses doing those events? NRHA NRCHA NCHA all allow grade horses to show. Yet you rarely find a grade showing at these events. WHY??

Now that is not saying that a grade horse can not do it or that every registered horse can. However at the end of the day your chances of getting a true performer is better with a registered well bred horse. Not just any registered horse but a well bred one.

There is a big difference between a well bred registered horse and a horse who just happens to have to registered horses.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I love Grades. I love Grades so much, I BUY them, not breed them.

The article is a massive generalization at best. It's going off the entire assumption that Grades are mixed breed horses and not unregistered horses. I have two Grades that are purebreds without papers - so I've got every "undesirable" trait of a purebred without any of the benefits. 

The article is promoting buying Grades, not breeding them. We have PLENTY of people breeding them as it is. Based on the assumption that Grades are started slower, the article is basically suggesting you buy that BELOVED foal that someone swore they would keep forever and now they can't and it's for sale and nobody wants it.

I have no issue with breeding well conformed Grades, but we are in a market where they are completely WORTHLESS as foals. A well trained horses of ANY breed, registration or purity is worth money - there is always someone who will want a nice quiet trail horse. But it's the 5-6 years of raising it's going to take to produce a quiet, reliable horse that nobody seems to want to think about.

I could sell just about any Grade with a lick of training around here for $500 or more. I couldn't GIVE away a Grade weanling.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

darkpaloma said:


> Just found this, very cool article, glad to know I'm not the only one proud of there unregistered and goofy looking horses
> 
> 
> If you are new to riding and interested in buying your first horse, consider a grade horse. This may be a great purchase for you.
> ...



I am not in any way saying that grade horses can not be good horses. What I am saying that in this day and age why breed for a grade trail horse. There are plenty of good trail horses already out there. Some are registered and some are not. Some are well trained ex show horses who have been retired and are not a good solid well trained trail horse enjoying their retirement. 

Keep in mind as a breeder. It cost no more to keep a well bred horse then it does to keep a grade puck. You may have a bit more into the stud fee itself but all the other cost are the same.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I love Grades. I love Grades so much, I BUY them, not breed them.
> 
> The article is a massive generalization at best. It's going off the entire assumption that Grades are mixed breed horses and not unregistered horses. I have two Grades that are purebreds without papers - so I've got every "undesirable" trait of a purebred without any of the benefits.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*Different strokes for different folks*

I'm not breeding any of my horses, I have three and that's enough for me and I bought them all i didn't breed any of them, why because they aren't breeding quality why, not because they don't have papers, but because they are low quality horses in the breeding sense, I don't condone "breed and if ya don't get what you want breed again" I go by this list

1 both parents proven 
2 both parents have ALMOST great conformation 
3 both parents must be sane not from training but from birth (yes it does happen)

your part as the breeder 

1 must have excellent finances
2 must know horses
3 must be committed
4 must love horses

on number 4 

if you don't love them don't own them SIMPLE 

with out love for your horse you can go no where.

I may sound like a kid and yes there are lots of unwanted horses out there,but through my experience in horses that are rescued are rescued for a reason 

this for example you want a horse that can and quite possibly could do it all not as the best but pretty darn well anyways, okay ill go get one from auction bring it home spend 1000's in training it and what do ya get ...A very expensive pasture pet because as cute as it was as a youngun it has no talent in what you want to use it for and why didn't you see this because you didn't see the parents or what they could do. 

All I am saying is USE COMMON SENSE


and if no one should breed a grade to a grade then really no one should breed anything couse like everyone said papered or not when not wanted they all go to the same place when no one wants them, lol brings me to humans having kids all over the place 

"why do you want a kid? becouse it would be mine" I hear this line all the time and NO it isnt any different (look at all the poor starving kids in africa just like our poor starving horses someone just wanted one just becouse 


PUT SOME THOUGHT INTO IT


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

*scratches head in confusion*


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm sorry, that is the most ignorant article I have heard in a while.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Well, that sure was an awkward read. Let me see if I can rewrite it :-|

_Don't overlook a Grade horse if it suits your needs._

There, did I miss anything?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My Appy is unregistered, and 3/4 Arabian by breeding. He is the result of an Appaloosa stallion breaking thru one fence and mating an Arabian show mare thru another fence. Good horse, but no one TRIED to breed him. And there are plenty of grade horses on the market.

Plenty of registered horses, too. In December, I sold a purebred Arabian mare for $600 so she would go to a good home. My daughter taking one of her first lessons on the $600 mare I sold (with the trainer who broke the mare to ride):










Lots of horses out there, so I see no reason to breed them unless you have a specific goal in mind and the resources to accomplish it.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I would rather see someone breed a grade horse with fantastic conformation who's proven than breed a registered confo wreck, but this doesn't mean we should breed grades just to breed them. The article posted is quite ignorant on many points, inclusive of:
1) Why breed worthless grade horses while there's so many in slaughter? You can have your precious grade pony without having to breed for it.
2) Quarter horses are not MEANT to be like mentioned in the OP. Those are halter QHs, much different from the useful WP, HUS, reining, ranch working QHs that really are the breed standard. What is wrong with breeding for these refined breeds?


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

-sigh-

I am so tired of ignorance.
:roll:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

There is nothing wrong with using grade horses. Nothing at all.

Breeding them, however, is just feeding the slaughter houses and increasing the likelihood that the horse will end up in a cruel/neglectful situation.

Sometimes I feel like DarkPloma is trolling by all these posts about backyard breeding and having us crit. her fugly stallion (who she promised multiple times would be gelded but to my knowledge hasn't happened).


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

Eliz said:


> There is nothing wrong with using grade horses. Nothing at all.
> 
> Breeding them, however, is just feeding the slaughter houses and increasing the likelihood that the horse will end up in a cruel/neglectful situation.
> 
> Sometimes I feel like DarkPloma is trolling by all these posts about backyard breeding and having us crit. her fugly stallion (who she promised multiple times would be gelded but to my knowledge hasn't happened).


Everyone posted on this seems so angry and disgusted.... :lol: Chill people. Everyone has their different opinions and ya cant do nothin about it.. So why be angry? Everyone say WOOSAH. haha But I will argue with this post..... Breeding grade horses does NOT mean it feeds the slaughter houses anymore than breeding performance feeds them. Because some people who look at a horse as a money earner and not a partner/companion will throw a lame unable to perform horse for whatever reason to the next wolf that comes along if they cant find a home for it....... Hence it ends up at the slaughter house..... or abandoned at a rescue.... Also just because its a grade horse also doesnt mean its neglected or in a cruel situation any more than the next performance horse........ Performance horses are prolly neglected more in a different way..... I heard a story one time from one of my instructors about how she used to work at a big time reining farm.... A reining prospect wasnt "performing" right or up to their standards so the owner tied him to the tree for days with no food or water then tried to ride him again and of course he wasnt gonna perform then..... he tied him back to the tree and eventually she came out one day and the horse was dead.... didnt bother the owner one bit..... Now if thats not cruelty I dont know what is..... And its not just the reiners its the english people too...... You just cant do anything about how some people are.... You can talk all you want to them and disagree about what they do.... but it doesnt mean they are gonna listen.... so why be mad?? 

OH and if shes not breeding her "fugly" stallion why is there a desperate "need" for him to be gelded???? Some act the same when they are a stallion verses when they are a gelding.... Crap some dont even know they are a stallion.... Just because you think hes "fugly" doesnt mean he dont deserve to keep his pride that he prolly doesnt even know about.... Just sayin..... Not trying to cause any drama whats so ever with my post....

Now everyone say Woosah again


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

MIEventer said:


> Well - I say - that there are TONS of people out there breeding "Grade" horses in their backyards on a regular basis...so why add more to the overpopulation as it is?
> 
> Why breed, if you aren't improving the line's and the quality of the animals? Why breed "blah" - just to get more "blah"????????????????????????????
> 
> My point is - is that it'll cost you just as much, if not more to breed crap, to get crap - when all you have to do is go to a local auction, or someone's back yard , and spend less on a horse that will please you for years to come - instead of adding more unwanted, into this over populated world?


Agreed!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Last year, 34 horses came to me in need of "rescuing"
Of these FOUR were registered horses meaning thirty were grade. 

I agree, there are some awesome grade horses in this world. I know of a accident mutt Percheron x Morgan mare who I'd give my left front tooth for, awesome horse! However I do not support the breeding of grade horses regardless! You can keep track of a registered horse. Also, do to the typical price tag of a Registered animal vrs a backyard mutt... I feel less wind up in bad situations, thus the need for thirty un-registered horses -here- needing food in 2010 and only four registered.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

poet, and didn't KNOW it.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I have to say that I am one of the people that is very strongly opposed to the breeding of grades. You can spout that "you can't ride papers" or "my registered horse is the ugliest of the lot" all day long. It's not going to change the fact that 9 times out of 10, the registered horse will be better quality. 

You say it's ok to breed grades if you do it responsibly. How can you do it in a responsible manner if you don't know the background of the horse you plan to breed? You can't look up a grade's pedigree to see if you like the lines, or if those lines produce good horses. You can't see the traits that they may pass down. How can that be 'breeding responsibly'?

You may not be able to ride papers, but your future foal could live because of them. I personally would not even look at an unpapered horse. Sure, a grade could probably do the job I want them to. I might be a snob for saying so, but I am not wasting my money on a 'nothing' horse. No history in my case means no future.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

I think a lot of people missed my post... Please go to the bottom of page 3 and read it  Thank you lol


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

^^ JerBear - your post made no sense at all.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

JerBear said:


> OH and if shes not breeding her "fugly" stallion why is there a desperate "need" for him to be gelded???? Some act the same when they are a stallion verses when they are a gelding.... Crap some dont even know they are a stallion.... Just because you think hes "fugly" doesnt mean he dont deserve to keep his pride that he prolly doesnt even know about.... Just sayin.....


 Because a stallion has urges, and it's not right to keep him a stallion and not satisfy these urges. There is also the chance that this stallion will come close to a mare, jump a fence, and cover her. Why risk this when a gelding is much easier to work with?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

equiniphile said:


> Because a stallion has urges, and it's not right to keep him a stallion and not satisfy these urges. There is also the chance that this stallion will come close to a mare, jump a fence, and cover her. Why risk this when a gelding is much easier to work with?


Exactly. Why keep him a stallion if he will never be bred? Why keep that chance of an accidental breeding that produces yet another unwanted horse?


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

Um I have no idea how my post didnt make sense......... Sorry you havent seen the movie Woosah came off of.... Sorry none of you agree with what i said about the stallion either... but my point was its not YOUR horse..... So you cant really do anything about it.... just saying... Sorry... Theres no need to bash her and tell her her horse is ugly and say she needs to geld him.....


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

JerBear, we were not bashing anyone on this thread until you brought it up.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

equiniphile said:


> JerBear, we were not bashing anyone on this thread until you brought it up.


Um if you read on page three one of u did.... Not saying you.... but one of you did yes....... IM done... Im not getting in a pointless argument with any of you...


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm in need of popcorn, this thread is getting interesting!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

Yeah I know right.... if I knew I was gonna be jumped on for posting anything I wouldnt have even posted.... I thought everyone on here was pretty good about keeping fights to a minimum but I guess not.....


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

JerBear said:


> Yeah I know right.... if I knew I was gonna be jumped on for posting anything I wouldnt have even posted.... I thought everyone on here was pretty good about keeping fights to a minimum but I guess not.....


Go to COTH. it's 100times worse.. Whatever you say, you get attacked for it. Whether it's saying you like pink, or you don't like pink, it will turn into a debate. No joke! I quit posting on there because people were so rude and opinionated on there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

I bashed. I'm admitting it and I'm not taking it back.
Read some of DarkPloma's other threads. There is a common trend. 

And they seem to have run off from this one?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

JerBear said:


> Yeah I know right.... if I knew I was gonna be jumped on for posting anything I wouldnt have even posted.... I thought everyone on here was pretty good about keeping fights to a minimum but I guess not.....


 Jumped on? You _asked_ for argument by wanting us to go back and re-read what you posted. No one _jumped_ on you.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I take exception to a couple of the OP's original points. 

"These beasts characteristically are calmer and less "hot" than non-mixed breeds."

Um, that ENTIRELY depends upon the breeds involved. Do you think if you cross a grade TB cross and a grade Arab that you will end up with a calm animal?

"Grade horses can have bigger bone and more substantial feet than purebred horses. An Arabian may be seen as beautiful because of having slender legs (small bone)."

Go over to A Black Horse network where many Arabian breeders post and see if ANY of them are trying to produce horses with slender legs and less bone. Arabians actually have dense bone for their size and every breeder I know is breeding for good bone. Slender legs are not bred for or considered a point of beauty in Arabians.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

^Exactly. Arabs are bred for endurance, with the goal in mind of good legs.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

I asked people go back and read it because i was trying to be the mediator and calm everyone down about the subject that none of us can do anything about.... No where in my statement did I say PLEASE argue with me..... And my most valid point that everyone needed to honestly think about was that grade horses no more fill up the slaughter houses than performance horses do.... Hence why i told my story because its true. But its always gonna be like it is now so I dont understand why everyone is getting so bent out of shape by what i said.... I didnt say I agreed with any of the points in the article nor did i say i agreed breeding grade horses was good....... The only thing i had a statement about was what Eliz said about grade horses filling up the slaughter houses more than others.... And I also didnt agree with her saying the girls horse was fugly and about it needing to be gelded. Thats fine you can say it needs to be gelded all you want but you have to remember its not your horse.... and the word fugly was just unnecessary.....I didnt know this girl had prior posts about grades im sorry if I did I might have not even said anything....Everyone please put urself back into shape cuz this is ridiculous.... I have not been on this forum very long but I think the moderators try to keep it very friendly and this right here is not friendly....


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Ever gone to a kill auction? If you have then you know the vast majority of those horses are grade. Could they have been registered at some point? Maybe however if they had and where worth anything under saddle they most likely would not be there.

As for your other comment about the reining trainer. To me if that was a truely good reining trainer they would not have done that. Most wash out reiners are worth more then a lot of other horses. What is a wash out in one program is a good horse in anouther. It is not at all hard to sell a wash out reiner. I have people contacting me all the time looking for one. The price vs training is very reasonable and they make great horses in other event or lower levels of reining.

So while I have no reason to doubt your story I will say that is not at all the norm.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Ever gone to a kill auction? If you have then you know the vast majority of those horses are grade. Could they have been registered at some point? Maybe however if they had and where worth anything under saddle they most likely would not be there.
> 
> As for your other comment about the reining trainer. To me if that was a truely good reining trainer they would not have done that. Most wash out reiners are worth more then a lot of other horses. What is a wash out in one program is a good horse in anouther. It is not at all hard to sell a wash out reiner. I have people contacting me all the time looking for one. The price vs training is very reasonable and they make great horses in other event or lower levels of reining.
> 
> So while I have no reason to doubt your story I will say that is not at all the norm.


Oh no I know its not the norm Im just saying it happens. A lot happens behind closed doors at peoples own farms that are cruel and dont really know what they are doing. People crazy to be known and to get money... And it really happened she worked for the guy... She tried to feed him but obviously you know she wasnt allowed to.... Im just saying we cant do anything about the mass amount of horses situation period.... grade or not grade.... No reason to get bent outta shape this bad... We should be all smiling because we love horses enough to be apart of this forum!  And obviously none of us would probably do the things that money crazy people do to their horses.... unfortunately something we cant help


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Sounds far fetched to me.

And English People? What do you mean by English People???


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

MIEventer said:


> Sounds far fetched to me.
> 
> And English People? What do you mean by English People???


Haha! Oh the popcorn sounds quite nice right now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

MIEventer said:


> Sounds far fetched to me.
> 
> And English People? What do you mean by English People???


Its not far fetched... It happens......

I mean the people who jump and do dressage etc..... And I didnt mean anything by it... I ride english sometimes too... I just didnt want it to look like i was targeting reiners.... because im not targeting anyone.... i just simply told a story as an example of what I was trying to get everyone to stop and think about....


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Thing is if everyone thought the way you do that there is nothing that can be done then nothing would get done about anything.

The number of registered QH has declined in the past few years. The number is lower then it has been since the 70's. There is a void that is present with in my sport. If you produce a good prospect they bring good money and if you pay that much for a prospect then hopefully you will also invest the training into it. Which most will do. A trainer abusing horses does not keep clients long. Not in this discipline. A horse who is not happy about doing his job will not fit the definition of a reining horse. Does it happen? Sure there will always be trainers who abuse a horse if they think it will get them ahead. However from experience those are not the trainers who win and if they do they do not keep clients long. There is no value to a dead horse.


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is if everyone thought the way you do that there is nothing that can be done then nothing would get done about anything.
> 
> The number of registered QH has declined in the past few years. The number is lower then it has been since the 70's. There is a void that is present with in my sport. If you produce a good prospect they bring good money and if you pay that much for a prospect then hopefully you will also invest the training into it. Which most will do. A trainer abusing horses does not keep clients long. Not in this discipline. A horse who is not happy about doing his job will not fit the definition of a reining horse. Does it happen? Sure there will always be trainers who abuse a horse if they think it will get them ahead. However from experience those are not the trainers who win and if they do they do not keep clients long. There is no value to a dead horse.


Well said!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Hmmm. I just wanted to preface this with the statement that I really like a good solid grade horse. Love em. In fact, my first horse I ever bought was grade and he was wonderful in every way.

However.

Breeding grade horses specifically? You lost me there. Plenty enough get bred by accident, most of which do NOT find good homes. Encouraging further breeding is irresponsible.

Think of it this way: What if people started advocating breeding programs for regular run of the mill tabby cats? Or mongrel dogs? There are P-L-E-N-T-Y around without any need to breed more. In fact, take a stroll around your local pound, see what you find.

Same goes for horses.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

Yep but what clients dont know wont hurt them right??..... Obviously im sure the guy didnt advertise what he did. I only know about it because one of my old instructors used to work for him and she was just warning us about that goes on out there and what we might possibly see....... Not that we wanna see it or believe that it happens.....


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

sarahver said:


> Hmmm. I just wanted to preface this with the statement that I really like a good solid grade horse. Love em. In fact, my first horse I ever bought was grade and he was wonderful in every way.
> 
> However.
> 
> ...


Oh I know right?? We already got it for dogs...... they are the poodle crosses... lab crosses... beagle crosses with the silly names! :lol:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

JerBear said:


> Yep but what clients dont know wont hurt them right??..... Obviously im sure the guy didnt advertise what he did. I only know about it because one of my old instructors used to work for him and she was just warning us about that goes on out there and what we might possibly see....... Not that we wanna see it or believe that it happens.....


Not so much. Believe me that owners with reining horse are quite involved. Even at the highest levels. There is just too much money to not be. Plus most owners like to show as well so they go and take lessens and such. Again if this really did happen and like I said I have no reason to doubt what you say. It is one of very very few. It comes down again to owner involvemet. Since again with reiners there is quite a bit even if it was not the owner of that horse that word gets out. 

When I have a horse at the trainers you should see all the people who will come up to me at shows who also have had horses with the same trainer and we talk. Compare notes and such. This is no different then any other training barn. I do not have to be there everyday to know what is going on.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

JerBear said:


> Oh I know right?? We already got it for dogs...... they are the poodle crosses... lab crosses... beagle crosses with the silly names! :lol:



And as long as people keep buying them people will keep breeding them. Stop buying and people will stop breeding them.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Not so much. Believe me that owners with reining horse are quite involved. Even at the highest levels. There is just too much money to not be. Plus most owners like to show as well so they go and take lessens and such. Again if this really did happen and like I said I have no reason to doubt what you say. It is one of very very few. It comes down again to owner involvemet. Since again with reiners there is quite a bit even if it was not the owner of that horse that word gets out.
> 
> When I have a horse at the trainers you should see all the people who will come up to me at shows who also have had horses with the same trainer and we talk. Compare notes and such. This is no different then any other training barn. I do not have to be there everyday to know what is going on.


Well im sure it got out eventually and hes probably no longer in business. I dont doubt that. Im not saying all the trainers are like that either... but there are a few percentage who are.....


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes there will always be bad trainers. Be it reiners cutters H/J or your run of the mill BY trainer. Also I would venture to say there are more bad trainers who train the average grade horse then there are who train and show horses. To many owners talk at shows and know each other. Compare notes and such. You do not have that for horses who do not show. Word does not get out as fast b/c there is no network of owners.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Yes there will always be bad trainers. Be it reiners cutters H/J or your run of the mill BY trainer. Also I would venture to say there are more bad trainers who train the average grade horse then there are who train and show horses. To many owners talk at shows and know each other. Compare notes and such. You do not have that for horses who do not show. Word does not get out as fast b/c there is no network of owners.


Amen to there are more bad trainers then there probably are good ones.... Thats most likely a definate


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I just want to add -shame on someone for knowing that that horse was tied to a tree until dead & did nothing to stop it. No job is worth watching a horse suffer. I would have video taped it, called the police, animal control, TV networks, has a scream fest in the trainers face, stole that horse at night- something, anything except watch it suffer.
(boy, I hope I'm on the right thread)


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Breeding more horses of any sort feed the slaughter houses/neglectful situations, and I also agree that even world-class horses end up in abusive conditions.

However, why would you knowingly feed into the low-quality horse population? They are a dime a dozen, and poor-looking horses are far more likely to meet a tragic end. Think about it... if you see some poorly-conformed horse as lot #104, and a nicely, sturdily built horse as lot number #105, which would you choose?

Also, saying that ALL grade horses are more calm/sane/sound than ALL "show-bred" horses is ridiculous & offensive.

Still wondering why you would create a thread knowing it would "tan people's hides".


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

Eliz said:


> Breeding more horses of any sort feed the slaughter houses/neglectful situations, and I also agree that even world-class horses end up in abusive conditions.
> 
> However, why would you knowingly feed into the low-quality horse population? They are a dime a dozen, and poor-looking horses are far more likely to meet a tragic end. Think about it... if you see some poorly-conformed horse as lot #104, and a nicely, sturdily built horse as lot number #105, which would you choose?
> 
> ...


That is true.... very true....

Also this goes to Natisha.... Yea it is unfortunate she didnt do anything about it but I believe it was one of her first jobs out of school... I would kind of be scared to stand up to my boss if he was paying off my mountain of student loans..... know what I mean?


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

natisha said:


> I just want to add -shame on someone for knowing that that horse was tied to a tree until dead & did nothing to stop it. No job is worth watching a horse suffer. I would have video taped it, called the police, animal control, TV networks, has a scream fest in the trainers face, stole that horse at night- something, anything except watch it suffer.
> (boy, I hope I'm on the right thread)


I was thinking the same thing! Doesn't make her much better (I don't care how many jobs she'd had, or how fresh out of school), and I'd sure be ashamed to admit I was a part of that.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

JerBear said:


> That is true.... very true....
> 
> Also this goes to Natisha.... Yea it is unfortunate she didnt do anything about it but I believe it was one of her first jobs out of school... I would kind of be scared to stand up to my boss if he was paying off my mountain of student loans..... know what I mean?


 Yeah, I know what you mean. It's a sad situation for a young person to be in but there are always resources to help. We should never be afraid to stand up for what we think is right. We can always get more money, peace of mind is a little harder to come by.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

She was also from mexico trying to make something of herself in the american horse industry too.... That to me would be intimidating in it self.... Needless to say she told us other stories when she had a different job later where she did turn in a person abusing a grand prix dressage horse at a show. And it sounded like it turned out well.... They were eliminated and she said she was proud of herself. She was just the little girl running errands for the show too....


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

JerBear said:


> She was also from mexico trying to make something of herself in the american horse industry too.... That to me would be intimidating in it self.... Needless to say she told us other stories when she had a different job later where she did turn in a person abusing a grand prix dressage horse at a show. And it sounded like it turned out well.... They were eliminated and she said she was proud of herself. She was just the little girl running errands for the show too....


Well then, maybe seeing what she did made her an outspoken animal advocate so _some_ good came out of it.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*SO true*



JerBear said:


> Yeah I know right.... if I knew I was gonna be jumped on for posting anything I wouldnt have even posted.... I thought everyone on here was pretty good about keeping fights to a minimum but I guess not.....



lol everyone has an opinion and I love debates hence why I posted it lol.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

natisha said:


> I just want to add -shame on someone for knowing that that horse was tied to a tree until dead & did nothing to stop it. No job is worth watching a horse suffer. I would have video taped it, called the police, animal control, TV networks, has a scream fest in the trainers face, stole that horse at night- something, anything except watch it suffer.
> (boy, I hope I'm on the right thread)


WELL SAID! I completely agree 100%. I would of sure caused a stink to save that horse! There is no excuse for anyone to allow something like that to happen to an animal - regardless if it is a horse, dog, cow, etc, etc, etc.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*that sounds alot like...*



nrhareiner said:


> And as long as people keep buying them people will keep breeding them. Stop buying and people will stop breeding them.



HAHAHA this makes me laugh because even your purebred German shepherd started out as a cross of several different dogs to get one amazing one just like the quarter horse and well most other breeds out there, lol all horses are mutts just some people figured out that instead of going breeding crazy they only bred a select few figured thats what they wanted and then stuck with that, IMHO PUREBRED and REGISTERED and PAPERS and what they CAN do are just bragging rights a horse is a horse no matter what it can do and I cant think of loving a purebred more than a mutt I love them just the same sad that other people cant think the same way. Don't love a horse for what it can do in the show ring, love it because it's a horse only then will you see the big picture.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*LOL wrong wuestion to ask me*



Eliz said:


> Breeding more horses of any sort feed the slaughter houses/neglectful situations, and I also agree that even world-class horses end up in abusive conditions.
> 
> However, why would you knowingly feed into the low-quality horse population? They are a dime a dozen, and poor-looking horses are far more likely to meet a tragic end. Think about it... if you see some poorly-conformed horse as lot #104, and a nicely, sturdily built horse as lot number #105, which would you choose?
> 
> ...


I would pick 104, just so it would have a good home and for those that would pick 105 well shame on you for not helping the lesser of the too

and for the last question haha I don't breed but i understand both sides to this and more threads like this may help ignorant people get a better understanding of this topic and as I have posted before I love a good debate, they tend to open peoples eyes a bit


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*oh yeah*

as for those people so worried about spelling and what not, It will be okay I promise, just cause your a perfectionist doesn't mean we all are nor do we all care.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

darkpaloma said:


> I would pick 104, just so it would have a good home and for those that would pick 105 well shame on you for not helping the lesser of the too


This really rubs me the wrong way.

There are plenty of people who are looking for horses that can do the job they need them to do. A poorly conformed horse is not going to hold up to the stresses of competitive sports or even a lot of ranch work. Who's business is it if they decide to pick the nicer horse that CAN work long term, over the train wreck that needs some TLC.

I have 2 "rescues" at the moment and they are both beautiful horses. One is arthritic and living out his days in the paddock. The other I picked out of a paddock full of horses that needed someone to take care of them, plenty of them looked worse for wear than the boy I picked out, but he was the one that I liked and wanted to help. Does that make me a terrible person?




darkpaloma said:


> as for those people so worried about spelling and what not, It will be okay I promise, just cause your a perfectionist doesn't mean we all are nor do we all care.


You should care. Poor language skills make people look less intelligent.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Darkpaloma, your comments make me want to puke.

You really need to learn a thing or two about the horse world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> I would pick 104, just so it would have a good home and for those that would pick 105 well shame on you for not helping the lesser of the too


Well then my dear, I expect you to be at the auctions, saving all the horses who are destined for slaughter. You want to point your finger, look at the 3 others pointing back at you.


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## FTFOTB (Feb 13, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> And as long as people keep buying them people will keep breeding them. Stop buying and people will stop breeding them.


Wow, I could not agree with this more! If buyers would raise their requirements a bit, the breeders would bring theirs up as well in order to sell their product. It's the supply and demand thing there...


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## FTFOTB (Feb 13, 2011)

To me, a breeder should always breed toward the goal of breed ideal and toward breed improvement. In order to do that, a breeder needs to have an excellent working knowledge of the background and history of their breed, a thorough knowledge of breed type and evolution, and a high level of knowledge about the bloodlines of that breed. IMO, if a person doesn't have that education, they probably shouldn't be breeding until they do. It literally takes years to learn these things. There are plenty of horses available out there, and many horses can be purchased from reputable breeders that would fit their requirements.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

_*Still wondering why you would create a thread knowing it would "tan people's hides". 

*_He/she already stated it was just to get a debate going for enjoyment of watching, which is why this person keeps posting ignorant things and clearly attempting to use poor grammar to cause more of a reaction.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

darkpaloma said:


> I would pick 104, just so it would have a good home and for those that would pick 105 well shame on you for not helping the lesser of the too
> 
> and for the last question haha I don't breed but i understand both sides to this and more threads like this may help ignorant people get a better understanding of this topic and as I have posted before I love a good debate, they tend to open peoples eyes a bit


Well, you are certainly more altruistic than myself as I would choose 105. However, I don't expect to be called shameful for it, it's just the choice I would make.

I am glad that you understand both sides but I don't see why you think so many of us are ignorant? I know there are many people on here with a wealth of experience, many more years than myself and I have been around horses long enough.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

The OP is only picking fights for the heck of it now. I think she is still in a snit because nobody agreed that her badly-conformed "stallion" was breed-worthy, even after starting three different critique threads trying to get a different response than what she got. I say we all move on to a thread that is actually worthwhile, and quit playing games with an OP that contradicts herself in order to get a rise out of everybody.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

New_image said:


> _*Still wondering why you would create a thread knowing it would "tan people's hides".
> 
> *_He/she already stated it was just to get a debate going for enjoyment of watching, which is why this person keeps posting ignorant things and clearly attempting to use poor grammar to cause more of a reaction.


I thought people were supposed to get banned for that type of stuff....


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Katesrider011 said:


> I thought people were supposed to get banned for that type of stuff....



It is very difficult to get banned from here.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I think the OP's story has changed.

First it seemed like they truly believed what they posted. They left for a while, watched from behind the scenes, and when they saw they had no argument, flipped the story around to look like they were just making debate by pulling out a story from the "other side". Double standards much?


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Spyder said:


> It is very difficult to get banned from here.


He he, speaks volumes about the fruitcakes that DO manage to accomplish being banned :wink:

Ah, people = crazy. Horse people = certifiable.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

darkpaloma said:


> HAHAHA this makes me laugh because even your purebred German shepherd started out as a cross of several different dogs to get one amazing one just like the quarter horse and well most other breeds out there, lol all horses are mutts just some people figured out that instead of going breeding crazy they only bred a select few figured thats what they wanted and then stuck with that, IMHO PUREBRED and REGISTERED and PAPERS and what they CAN do are just bragging rights a horse is a horse no matter what it can do and I cant think of loving a purebred more than a mutt I love them just the same sad that other people cant think the same way. Don't love a horse for what it can do in the show ring, love it because it's a horse only then will you see the big picture.
> 
> *Never can under stand why people seem to think that b/c people breed good quality animals and then prove them they some how do not care about the animal. This just baffles me. I know a lot of big breeders both in horses and dogs and they all love their animals very much take better care then most other animal owners spend a lot of time energy and money on these animals not just in proving them but in every aspect of their care.
> *



This is the mentality of people who need an excuse to breed anything and everything. Yes every breed started at some point. However the crosses that are being produced with in the dog breeds are not needed will never be recognized by the AKC or any other legit registry.

Not to mention that 99% of these dog breed crosses are from BYB who do not test or do anything but breed to dogs who are most likely is Limited Registration through AKC so the only way to get any money for these pups is to give them a fancy name and hope people will buy them. They are MUTTS. Go to you local shelter or rescue and get a good dog. There are plenty of them out there. NO need to breed more.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

darkpaloma said:


> I would pick 104, just so it would have a good home and for those that would pick 105 well shame on you for not helping the lesser of the too
> 
> and for the last question haha I don't breed but i understand both sides to this and more threads like this may help ignorant people get a better understanding of this topic and as I have posted before I love a good debate, they tend to open peoples eyes a bit


That is nice that you would pick a horse who is worthless and has no quality of life. I bet you would keep anything with 4 legs regardless of its quality of life.

Again it comes down to what people will buy. It cost no more to keep 104 then it does 105. Heck it will most likely cost more to keep 104.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)




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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh but trolls can be so much fun to play with at times.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Hm, I guess in a sense that would be trolling as well.

Trolling a troll.



Y'know, after reading this thread I feel VERY guily for ever owning a registered horse! And for buying a horse that isn't neglected/starving/falling apart!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Eliz said:


> Y'know, after reading this thread I feel VERY guily for ever owning a registered horse! And for buying a horse that isn't neglected/starving/falling apart!


I know  We should all send our well-conformed, pretty registered horses off to auctions so THEY can know what it's like to not be pretty.

:roll:


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## Missdv (Nov 4, 2010)

Wow, this is wild, I chose not to breed, was in cat/dog breeding for show for years and started feeling I was adding to the excess population. I had folks calling say they could not longer care for them and could I rehome them. Realized I was being of a disservice instead of a service. Some of my pups & kittens went on to be shown, but some just ended up in adoption agencies. I stopped breeding and never would have had I known then, what I know now. 

I have a pregnant mare now that I bought pregnant (unknowingly) and will never breed my other mare, & will keep the foal, so I know what becomes of him/her. I adopted my 6 yr old from a seizure auction and bought the older pregnant mare from a friend as a gentle trail horse for my husband (city boy never rode before). 

I have dealt with puppy mills and I believe the same goes for any animal, if you're in it for the money, you're in it for the wrong reason. You should also not breed unless you have a market, & right now there isn't a good market, folks can barely hold on, I have folks offering me their horse free at the feed store, cause they can't feed em and don't want them to go to kill pens. As far as mixed breeds, goes the same with horses as with dogs, you can get the best or you can get the worst, it's all in the genetics, so uness you study the genetics and as was stated earlier, kno what their breeding is, cross breeding is a crap shoot. Had a shepard/lab mix that had to put down, started attacking people, have a lab/golden mix that will defend but loud noises and she hides behind me, folks breed labs for their loyalty, but you get the pros & cons with the mixes. I'm all for stop the excess breeding, I watched the kill videos & had nightmares for days thinking of the horses, still do.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I do not at all believe that we should stop breeding quality animals. There is still a very very good market for well bred horses. I have no problem selling my foals before they are even bred most of the time. The Futurity sales where up 18% this year over last and last was up from the year before.

Also I am very much into breeding for the money. If you can not breed and make a profit then perhaps you should reconsider what you are doing. If you are truly breeding quality animals there is a good market for them and you can make money.


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## JerBear (Jan 23, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> This is the mentality of people who need an excuse to breed anything and everything. Yes every breed started at some point. However the crosses that are being produced with in the dog breeds are not needed will never be recognized by the AKC or any other legit registry.
> 
> Not to mention that 99% of these dog breed crosses are from BYB who do not test or do anything but breed to dogs who are most likely is Limited Registration through AKC so the only way to get any money for these pups is to give them a fancy name and hope people will buy them. They are MUTTS. Go to you local shelter or rescue and get a good dog. There are plenty of them out there. NO need to breed more.


AMEN I absolutely hate the dog crosses they come up with and try to make a real breed out of. Absolutely stupid and ridiculous. I saw one once it was called a Beabull Beagle/Bulldog..... Now how stupid is that lol Sure people cross horses but I havent seen anyone give it a dumb name and try to make a breed out of it....

As of now all I think this girl wanted is attention that was the whole point of starting this thread..... Shame.... :?


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

equiniphile said:


> I know  We should all send our well-conformed, pretty registered horses off to auctions so THEY can know what it's like to not be pretty.
> 
> :roll:


Yes! And we should but all the bad-conformed, ugly, unregistered horses and breed them. Cause thats what they deserve a good life!!


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

equiniphile said:


> I know  We should all send our well-conformed, pretty registered horses off to auctions so THEY can know what it's like to not be pretty.
> 
> :roll:


Agreed. Im definitely going to send my point earning, national title winner, congress champion to an auction, just to be fair. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

Anyway. There will always be a market for both. Registered horses can go farther in the ring. Grade horses are geneally good for 'average joe' stuff. Because of my discipline, I am a registered person. I plan on showing, and kind of hard. I can't really have a mixed breed, but I can have unreg'd for gaited shows.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

I bet that my registered horse can do anything DarkPloma's grade horse(s) can do. He's not handicapped because he is show bred/registered.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

The value of both my mares is cut in half, if not more, because of no papers. I find it unbelievably frustrating that neither of them is registered - I don't love them any less, but I can't compete in breed shows and they will never have worth as broodmares.

It's fine if I was buying crossbreeds, but it's extra frustrating to have an unregistered purebred because somebody else couldn't be bothered. And I didn't even get Jynx for cheaper because of it cause the woman LIED to me about her registrarability!

Because my horses are of medicore quality at best, simply registering them could have gone a long way in improving their worth. They're fine because I have them, but there are SO many horses like this and it's just stupid. Registration is MORE then just papers and it drives me nuts when people make comments about "you don't ride the papers". Maybe not, but they can mean the difference of life and death sometimes.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I have been horse shopping almost 3 years, not that I'm fussy :wink:
I like Arabians & would further pursue an add that showed a nice looking horse, papers or not. However, I would not answer any add that said, "Can be easily registered." To me if it is so darn easy why didn't the sellers do it? It makes me wonder what else they didn't bother to do.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It's not so easy to register a purebred even if you have their papers filled out. Especially if you are missing signatures on the papers from the horse's original breeders. Sometimes your horse has to be DNA tested and it usually costs hundreds of dollars to register an older horse.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*breeding for money*



nrhareiner said:


> I do not at all believe that we should stop breeding quality animals. There is still a very very good market for well bred horses. I have no problem selling my foals before they are even bred most of the time. The Futurity sales where up 18% this year over last and last was up from the year before.
> 
> Also I am very much into breeding for the money. If you can not breed and make a profit then perhaps you should reconsider what you are doing. If you are truly breeding quality animals there is a good market for them and you can make money.


haha thats a good enough reason for me Not to breed


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*It's 90%*



gottatrot said:


> It's not so easy to register a purebred even if you have their papers filled out. Especially if you are missing signatures on the papers from the horse's original breeders. Sometimes your horse has to be DNA tested and it usually costs hundreds of dollars to register an older horse.



About the money END I am done lol


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## Eastowest (Mar 26, 2009)

On the flip side, as a breeder, if I have all my paperwork in order on my mares and stallion, and my breed org. membership is current, it only costs me $35-$50 each to register my foals every year if I get it done when they are babies.

I see too many people which put a registered mare to a registered stallion thinking they can instantly register the foal-- no one bothered to check the registry requirments-- have DNA filed, file breeding reports, make sure recorded ownership is current, signatures obtainable, fees covered... basically they want a registered horse without doing any homework or even joining the associaiton or reading the rulebook where they want the papers from.

Then they sell the foal with an application, saying its "registerable".

A horse is NOT automatically "registerable", simply because it has registered parents. 

And DarkPaloma, its NOT all about money-- yes, it COSTS money to register a horse, but thats because people who work in registration offices to file and match up paperwork and check DNA and requirements and print and send out certificates can't do so for free. You are paying for a service.

Besides just a registration "paper", you get a document indicating the age, breed, and ancestry of your horse, and a record of previous owners, registered offspring and any show accomplishments permanently recorded in the horse's file with the registry, and available to you.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

darkpaloma said:


> haha thats a good enough reason for me Not to breed



Personally from this thread and others, that is the wisest thing you have said.

People like you *should* stay out of breeding as your values are skewed and you don't come off as having a lick of sense that could ever create a viable good working horse.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

vivache said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woySeSNBL3oAnyway. There will always be a market for both. Registered horses can go farther in the ring. Grade horses are geneally good for 'average joe' stuff. Because of my discipline, I am a registered person. I plan on showing, and kind of hard. I can't really have a mixed breed, but I can have unreg'd for gaited shows.


This is kind of an asinine statement. Just because a horse is registered does not make it "too good" for the "average joe" horse owner. There is _nothing _that a grade horse can do that a registered horse cannot. While on the otherside there are many things that a registered horse is eligible to do that a grade one cannot (i.e. breed shows, etc.).

There is no _need_ to be breeding grade horses. There are more then a enough grade horses as well as registered horses in the world. Breeding more horses that essentially have little value without extensive training is just plain stupid.

I have nothing against grades. I own one grade appy mare, two grade ponies, and my two registered horses. The registered horses have more options available for them for us to do with them then the grades do.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Just in case anyone was worried about the lack of breeding programs for grade horses, I just wanted to assure you that they are alive and well. It's just that they sometimes go by a different name; the 'oops' program.

"oops, my stallion went through my stallion-inappropriate fencing and got to my mares"

"Oops I bred this horse for no reason, can't be bothered registering it and have to sell it in a hurry"

"Oops I thought it would be a good idea to breed my fave mare to my fave stud who were both good horses but unregistered themselves, now I have an unregistered baby that didn't live up to my expectations."

"Oops I thought that if I bred some horses and sold them off I would make money out of it, now I need to get rid of them as it turns out I don't have a market."

Plenty of good horses come from these sorts of things, don't get me wrong. Unfortunately some stinkers come out of this also. But rest assured, the breeding program for grade horses is one of the most active programs out there.


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

what an entertaining thread some of it was so far fetched and pointless was a great read!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

darkpaloma said:


> haha thats a good enough reason for me Not to breed



Why, you do not have, what, or know what a quality animal is??


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Lol great post, spyder. I am going to sit back with my popcorn now because IMO the op is hopeless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missdv (Nov 4, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> I do not at all believe that we should stop breeding quality animals. There is still a very very good market for well bred horses. I have no problem selling my foals before they are even bred most of the time. The Futurity sales where up 18% this year over last and last was up from the year before.
> 
> Also I am very much into breeding for the money. If you can not breed and make a profit then perhaps you should reconsider what you are doing. If you are truly breeding quality animals there is a good market for them and you can make money.


I am not talking about folks who have quality to breed and breed selectively, I'm talking about every Joe Schmoe who gets a horse with papers and breeds to another horse with papers and ta da I have an awesome horse. I bred my cats for their genetics and was aiming for snow leopards(Bengal cats, part asian leopard),I studied their lines and bred accordingly, but always had a few throw backs that were pet quality(did not allow to be bred when sold). Some folks see money and breed without thought of what they are breeding, just want the money a pedigree will bring, so breed strictly for money. I was a breeding snob, but relax folks, if an accident happens, it's not the end of the world, some breeds may compliment each other. I don't know about horse registration but can you dictate breeding or non breeding in their papers, I did in contracts with my cats & dogs, were not allowed to breed if pet quality.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

No there is not a separation with in the registration for limited registration and full registration like there is with dogs.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> No there is not a separation with in the registration for limited registration and full registration like there is with dogs.


That would solve a lot of quality issues. Maybe it should be pushed?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I do not at all see that working. Just like it really does not work in AKC. If people what to breed their animals they will. The end results is a bunch of un registered animals with no over site.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

That is true. See it here with cats. When I was breeding, if I didn't think a kitten was show or breeding quality, I included the neuter price in the cost of the kitten, and it left my cattery already snipped. If and when I start breeding horses, I plan to do the same.


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## Missdv (Nov 4, 2010)

I had considered that with mine but my partner( mother-in-law) was cheap and wanted pure profit. I guess she was the 2nd reason I got out, she would sell to anyone & I was picky, wanted to know the person & how they got on with animals. If my Lab didn't like them they hit the road, trust my dogs more than my senses.


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## Missdv (Nov 4, 2010)

Also want to add, my mare I just bought is pregnant, I am gelding the baby if it turns out to be a baby stallion. His parents are both registered and both have shown halter class and won ribbons, have great pedigrees, but I ain't planning on addding to the surplus horse population. If I want another horse, I'll adopt again!


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## ladywandershere (Jan 4, 2011)

my stable is full of possibly grade horses, the horse market here is so terrible, my paint looks like he is some high blooded gaited qh, my red mare appears just as good as my friends triple papered up horses, actually i think mine will show better because they learn quick, ready to please, and not moody or tempermental, but i keep them not for shows, but because i love them


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