# Can a sorrel eventually roan out?



## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

Is it possible that one of his parents has the rabicano gene? Or does he have high white socks that might be sabino? Most roans I know of look roan pretty much from the get go. Once they shed their foal coat, it's quite obvious, the white flecked body, with dark face and legs. If he were really roan, his whole body should be speckled with white hairs. Pictures would help if you have some you could post. Maybe several from birth to now, so we can see his coat progression.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

If he were a true roan you'd most likely see it after his foal shed. Also a roan MUST have a roan parent. It could be a different ticking pattern like sabino or rabicano or it could just be funky foal coat. Can you post pics? What do the parents look like?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

I will post pictures today or tomorrow.. I didnt think to take any. He has 3 high socks (not quite stockings) and a blaze.. Other then that.. No white. His sire is Bay Overo and his dam is Black Overo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

They did produce a foal awhile back that was a sorrel with the white area getting bigger (she passed away young due to an accident)..

As I am not framiliar with sabino or rabicano.. How can you tell if they have this trait? Is it due to markings?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Yes there are specific traits to both sabino and rabicano. Post pics of the parents if you can. Also I'm not sure your aware and I'm not attackig you or anything but it is not safe to breed overo to overo because I'm betting by you saying they're overo they are likely frame. Frame in homozygous form (a foal inherits a frame gene from each parent) if that happens is 100% lethal. There is a 25% chance per breeding that could occur. It called overo lethal white syndrome. So you likely dodged a bullet with that breeding. Anyways, I can't wait to see the pics!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

I will post them as soon as I get on the computer. And yes, I am aware... I am not the breeder of the overos. The dam has produced 2 lethal whites... And the sire was gelded after my boy was born.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

Okay. Here is Mommy
(Pregnant)


















Here is Daddy (Son of Mr.Shameless!)



















Here is my boy






































I will try to get some close ups of the white hair spots in question as soon as I can!


----------



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Blazeeofglory said:


> My 10 month old is a sorrel... But today I noticed he is getting a lot of white hairs on his stomach and left side. Its looks like roaning almost... But is it possible at this age? Or is it something else?
> 
> Thanks!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Simply put ------------ Yes they can.

My current solid sorrel TWH stayed a solid sorrel until he was around 15. He is now 19 and has "roaned out" to about 30% of white hairs. I was not happy but that's what happens when your lineage goes back to a horse named "Roan Allen".

Conversely I had a solid sorrel Arab/Saddlebred that I raised from birth until the cancer got him at age 29. Even with the cancer, his coat remained solid sorrel to the end.


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

I have had several sorrels and I have never noticed this with them. He is a paint.. If that helps. I am kinda hoping he roans out..hehe
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

The pictures aren't clear enough to show much, IMO.

However, if you plan to cross those two again: I would recommend not. You are lucky you did not get a lethal white foal. Both parents are obviously frame carriers.


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

I stated in a previous post that the sire has been gelded
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

My quarter horse gelding (in my avatar) is sorrel with a stripe and two high hind socks, and he has white hairs scattered around his body in various places. I wouldn't call him a roan though. You don't notice them until you get up close.

I was told the white hairs are common with the Zippo Pine Bars (he traces back to Zippo). 

Interested to read the comments you're getting.  It might shed some light on mine as well.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No a horse does not "roan out" unless it has varnish which is an appaloosa trait. Most horses and more so red horses will have whit ticking that can come and go and even be heavy ticking at times. It is not roan.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Agreed, most chestnut/sorrel horses will have some level of white ticking throughout their coat. That's just part of having a sorrel. I'm unsure what gene it is that causes it (or if that particular gene has even been identified yet) but it happens and it is not related to the true roan gene. Also, I don't believe that pinto genes can cause patterns to "show up" later on in the horse's life. They either have the paint parts when they are born or they don't.

Anyway, here is a good example of what white ticking can do on a sorrel horse. 

This is her head a little over 4 years ago when we got her









And this is her head now (she was 7 then, she's 11 now)


----------



## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

walkinthewalk said:


> Simply put ------------ Yes they can.
> 
> My current solid sorrel TWH stayed a solid sorrel until he was around 15. He is now 19 and has "roaned out" to about 30% of white hairs. I was not happy but that's what happens when your lineage goes back to a horse named "Roan Allen".
> 
> Conversely I had a solid sorrel Arab/Saddlebred that I raised from birth until the cancer got him at age 29. Even with the cancer, his coat remained solid sorrel to the end.


Walk the Wind I would bet money that your horse has Sabino ticking. No 'classic roan' will start to roan out at 15.

OP your horse also appears to be sabino based on the shape of his socks (how they come to a point) and also the white on his lower lip. Both are classic indications of sabino. Neither parent is a classic roan so ther is no possible way for your colt to be. It does not skip generations.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Exactly^^^
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

So.. Since he is sabino based... How much white hair could he get out of this? And whats the difference between sabino and rabicano?

Thanks for all your help!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

The difference between Sabino and Rabicano is just that they are different pinto genes, just as tobiano and overo are different genes.

Since he's already developing a decent amount of ticking this young, there is a chance that he could continue to get more...but it will likely never really be enough to qualify as a part of his pattern.


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

I forgot to get pictures today.. Sigh.. But it seems like he had a little more then yesterday. Maybe its my imagination... I didnt know that could happen so fast! I am kind if excited to see how it turns out to look... Although it seems as if most people with sorrels dont appreciate this gene? Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, I don't think it's that they don't appreciate the gene, it's more than most of us with sorrels are used to some amount (either a little or a lot) of ticking just as a part of the color and we don't really associate it with any particular gene.

Just like my Belgian mare that I posted a pic of. She's got a massive amount of ticking on her head and a fair amount on her body...much more than she had when we got her 4 years ago, but it's just a part of who she is and it doesn't change the fact that she's still a regular old sorrel :wink:.


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

Lol  Honestly ive never really got that deep into genes to know that those even existed.. And I have never seen a sorrel with it (maybe I havent just paid much attention)

Its interesting to see. Is it a gene that can come across in any breed or do only certain breeds carry it?

Sorry for all the questions.. I just find this interesting!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I have no idea definitively which gene causes it, but I _suspect_ that it may be caused by sabino the majority of the time. I have a 4 year old gelding out of that mare and he's also developing ticking on his sides and body and starting to grow a fair amount of white hair in his mane that he didn't have before. I know he carries sabino as he's got jagged white socks on the hind and he's got a white lower lip (as someone else said, trademarks of the sabino gene), but I don't know if he got it from Mom (above) or Dad, who was a QH that I haven't seen in years.


----------



## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

okay- not to take away from the OP's original question- but about the sabino gene thing... I have had some people tell me at my barn Whiskey has minimal sabino markings on him. I just assumed he was sorrel with a pointed white sock and a blaze..

Can he have a sabino gene without being registered as a paint? He is AQHA Appendix registered. Haven't done a lot of sleuthing into the QH side of his breeding beyond on his papers, but if paint was in his history wouldnt his family tree had stayed paint? AQHA/APHA confuses me so sorry If I am not making a lot of sense haha


----------



## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Well, it's obvious that neither parent has roan or rabicano. I'm not entirely sure if rabicano works the same way as roan in that it doesn't hide so someone will need to clarify. But at this point my guess is that it's just white ticking.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

See, the funny thing about pinto markings is that nearly every horse carries at least one, regardless of whether they are registered/bred as paints or not. Every white marking on legs or face, regardless how small, is caused by pinto genes. So, even a registered QH is still carrying _some_ pinto gene if he's got a star or a sock.


----------



## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

smrobs said:


> See, the funny thing about pinto markings is that nearly every horse carries at least one, regardless of whether they are registered/bred as paints or not. Every white marking on legs or face, regardless how small, is caused by pinto genes. So, even a registered QH is still carrying _some_ pinto gene if he's got a star or a sock.


Gotcha! That definitely makes sense then. Thank you smrobs


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

I know my boy is not the only one out of those two that have presented this "ticking".. So one of them must carry the gene.. Hmm.. 

Horses are some amazing creatures arent they!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

So... Other then the pointed socks and white lip... What other things are signs of sabino/rabicano?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hmm, well, for sabino, the jagged markings centered on the barrel (and sometimes the neck and hip).

Rabicano will often present with a skunk tail as well


















I tell you, though, pinto patterns haven't been my main study in color genetics since I only really own one paint and her pattern is easy. I tend to get lost when the patterns start to combine and there is a horse that carries rabicano, sabino, tobiano, and whateverelse-o LOL. I can usually pick out the obvious patterns, but when they start getting subtle, that's when I have trouble.

Chiilaa would be the person to really ask. She's one of the most knowledgeable folks here on color genetics of all kinds and she really works hard to stay up to date.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Sabino - white on lip or chin, fairly symmetrical face white, face white avoiding the eyes, narrow face white, leg white has points on either front or back of leg, leg white has "messy" edges, body white with largest concentration of white on barrel, body white "ticked" through coat, body white "messy" especially around edges.

Rabicano - centralised on the flank area of the horse, looks very ticked and can seem to cause stripes on the ribs, can cause a "**** tail".


----------



## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Sabino - white on lip or chin, fairly symmetrical face white, face white avoiding the eyes, narrow face white, leg white has points on either front or back of leg, leg white has "messy" edges, body white with largest concentration of white on barrel, body white "ticked" through coat, body white "messy" especially around edges.
> 
> Rabicano - centralised on the flank area of the horse, looks very ticked and can seem to cause stripes on the ribs, can cause a "**** tail".


So Chiilaa, is it possible for Whiskey to have the sabino gene even if he is not a registered paint? He has white on his lip and chin from what I can tell, and he also has a white sock with "messy" edges. It actually looks like its dirty, but that is the coloring! Drives me wild. I cant even tell you how long I scrubbed that the other day. Below are 2 pics of whiskey (side shot for leg white and face shot for white on lip/chin) followed by 2 pics of his sire and dam. They also have leg white so is that sabino? Even though his sire is a TB? 

Genetics fascinates me!!


----------



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

here is a sabino 


































here is a rabicano


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

DriftingShadow said:


> So Chiilaa, is it possible for Whiskey to have the sabino gene even if he is not a registered paint? He has white on his lip and chin from what I can tell, and he also has a white sock with "messy" edges. It actually looks like its dirty, but that is the coloring! Drives me wild. I cant even tell you how long I scrubbed that the other day. Below are 2 pics of whiskey (side shot for leg white and face shot for white on lip/chin) followed by 2 pics of his sire and dam. They also have leg white so is that sabino? Even though his sire is a TB?
> 
> Genetics fascinates me!!
> 
> ...


ALL white on a horse has to be caused by either scarring or a genetic code - a white patterning gene of some kind. So yes, even horses that are not Paints can have white patterning genes. These often express as just "normal" markings on "solid" horses. Some breeds don't have ALL the white patterning genes, but most breeds (off the top of my head I can't think of a breed without white completely, but I am not 100% on that) have at least one of them. 

I would say sabino and maybe splash on Whiskey. Sabino because of how narrow his face white is, and how it stays so symmetrical, splash because it is widest at the bottom.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> here is a sabino


Each of these isn't sabino on its own, which makes it hard to isolate what the sabino is doing.


This one has sabino causing the messy edges to the leg white, but it also has splash probably - causing the bottom heavy "apron" blaze that spreads out over the lower part of the face, and also causing the extremely high whites.










It is not known at this time what causes Clydesdales to have this white pattern, but I am in the camp that believes that instead of sabino, they have dominant white causing it. The edges of the white are too flaky for me to say that they are caused by sabino. However, that is purely opinion, and neither camp has any actual evidence at this point in time - if it is sabino, it is one of the untestable variations of it.










Again, I would imagine this horse has splash in the mix as well as sabino. You can see bottom heavy white on the face, and high white on the legs. As well as that, the way the white creeps up and down on the side of the horse is very typical of splash.










This horse almost certainly has sabino, splash, and frame. You can tell it's sabino because of the messy edges to the white. Splash is obvious in the high leg white, and the bottom heavy face white. Frame can be seen in the way the body and neck white seem to be trying to spread horizontally - this is especially apparent in the neck white in this case - it is clearly a "frame" of colour around a white patch on the side of the neck and face, hence the name for frame


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Nicely put chiilaa^^^ and I'm also in the Clyde dominant white camp. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blazeeofglory (Jul 14, 2013)

Ahh im so glad I can ask my questions where everyone is so knowledgeable!

So.. Whats the difference between sabino rabicano and roan? Is roan just an actual color or is that a pattern as well?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Blazeeofglory said:


> Ahh im so glad I can ask my questions where everyone is so knowledgeable!
> 
> So.. Whats the difference between sabino rabicano and roan? Is roan just an actual color or is that a pattern as well?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Roan is a white patterning gene too. It is characterised by what it leaves untouched though - the majority of roans will have no white on their face (from the ticking white, not white markings caused by other white patterns), and no white on their legs. The legs in particular usually have a distinct upward "V" edge where you can see where the roan ends and the normal coat colour begins.










Another thing that distinguishes roan from sabino and rabicano is corn marks. Roans are really prone to get dark spots in their roaned areas, and it is unclear why - the commonly held belief is that they are caused by scars, but some horses that you wouldn't expect to have many scars still have dozens of them, like expensive stallions etc. 









Another clear indicator of roan that will distinguish it very quickly from sabino and rabicano is the seasonal aspect of it. Roans in summer look hugely different to roans in winter. This is two pictures of the same horse, taken in April and in May.


----------



## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

Cool! Thanks chiilaa! I always love reading what you have to say about color/etc. I learn a lot! Thank you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

And now just to test myself....:wink:

Drifter only has this white on his face...but considering the criteria..he most likely has splash, right? Since his blaze widens more toward the bottom?


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I wouldn't say Drifter has splash at all. All white markings ARE caused by a gene somewhere, but nothing has been isolated that would pinpoint what and where that gene or genes may be. Only one mutation of sabino is currently isolated for testing, so there is possibility for many other mutations that could be causing basic facial markings. My APHA mare has a wide blaze that both widens between her eyes and aprons on her nose. She's out of a loud colored mare who is obviously frame and splash. My mare is only frame. 



DriftingShadow said:


> okay- not to take away from the OP's original question- but about the sabino gene thing... I have had some people tell me at my barn Whiskey has minimal sabino markings on him. I just assumed he was sorrel with a pointed white sock and a blaze..
> 
> Can he have a sabino gene without being registered as a paint? He is AQHA Appendix registered. Haven't done a lot of sleuthing into the QH side of his breeding beyond on his papers, but if paint was in his history wouldnt his family tree had stayed paint? AQHA/APHA confuses me so sorry If I am not making a lot of sense haha


And AQHA horses carry all of the "overo" genes: frame, splash, and sabino. There are plenty of horses that are registered as AQHA and have white patterns. Sonny Dee Bar, for example, had enough white from carrying splash to make him look flashy, but not enough to kick him out of the AQHA.


----------

