# Teach me to critique



## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

I love looking at horses and naive little me thinks they're all pretty :hide:

I can see glaring mistakes in conformation but the tiny details not so much. 

I know it'd probably be easier to learn in person but maybe advice from here can help.

I'm just curious. I've been around horses for all of my 20 years but wouldn't you know that almost every horse I've come in contact with belongs to professional horsemen (and women) so my run ins with poor conformation has been limited (I think). 

If people could maybe post pictures of horses with good conformation and poor conformation and then explain why for both it'd be a big help for my learning.

Thanks


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The problem with doing this is permissions regarding posting photos.

Google has images. You can start there. You can also purchase the Conformation series by Dr. Deb Bennett.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I will sub and upload pictures of my horses that I had (own pictures) and Elana can help you tear them to pieces!


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I am in work, so cannot link the pictures directly, however I have found some threads.

First is Duffy. 7yo 18.1hh Westfalen mare out of Donnerbube3 out of a Fruhlingsball/Paradox mother. 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/duffy-camelhorse-103953/

Second lot are possibly not the best for confo. This was my 17.1hh 20YO gelding out of Donnerschlag. Dressage master! (If you caught him on the right day!)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/donnerschlag-son-before-he-sold-115561/

And this was my three year old stallion, 16.3hh Hano out of Don Frederico.. I have a donnerhall issue!
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/critique-3yo-dressage-horse-137848/


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

This is my lovely horse I found on the internet. Anything wrong with him? I feel like there's something wrong with his front knees? And maybe his topline? Or am I way off?


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm bad with terminology, hopefully someone else will chime in. But his legs are all wonky- weird knees and extremely straight back legs. Awful trim job on his feet, which may be the reson his pasterns look so straight. His back is more rounded than most, but I couldn't tell you if that's a good/bad thing.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

^^^ EXTREMELY upright on all of his pasterns. I would be surprised if this horse would stay sound for very long. He is also upright through the shoulder and very straight through the entire hind leg without adequate angle for shock absorption.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I didn't read it all, but this tutorial shows a lot about conformation.
Evaluating Horse Conformation | CAES Publications | UGA


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Reaallllyyy straight through the hocks, making him look like he's walking with stick straight legs. 
Very upright pasterns and I'm not liking his feet one bit. 
His neck is nice, and I like how his shoulder lays back, but as Tryst said.... I'd worry about his soundness long term.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Halter horse?


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

No idea what kind of horse. It's a picture I found from the internet lol


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

ForeverSunRider said:


> This is my lovely horse I found on the internet.


I think most of us thought you meant that you owned the horse and you discovered him through the internet. 
So he is not actually yours  (I think?) 
That's probably a good thing.... Because it's quite difficult to break to someone that their horse is a bit of a train wreck, and there is a 99% chance it won't stay sound


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I have circled the really good about your internet horse in red. His topline, shoulder, hindquarters are good. Nice depth of barrel and heart girth. He looks like a halter bred quarterhorse for everything else. Over at the knee (circled) and straight through the hock. I have attempted to draw in yello correct hind leg angles and correct pastern angles. 

Put different legs on this horse and you would have a super super animal.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Tryst said:


> I didn't read it all, but this tutorial shows a lot about conformation.
> Evaluating Horse Conformation | CAES Publications | UGA


 
This is great information. Thanks for providing the link.


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

CandyCanes said:


> I think most of us thought you meant that you owned the horse and you discovered him through the internet.
> So he is not actually yours  (I think?)
> That's probably a good thing.... Because it's quite difficult to break to someone that their horse is a bit of a train wreck, and there is a 99% chance it won't stay sound


No, he's not mine. 

This guy is mine.










I'd love to have him critiqued but I know it's not a good shot of him at all. Maybe when I'm home over Thanksgiving I'll take some conformation pictures and post them.


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

I don't see anything glaringly bad about your guy though  he's cute; I love palominos!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

You can use my mare. Ill post photos if you like.


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> You can use my mare. Ill post photos if you like.


If you wouldn't mind...


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

Here are a few that you're welcome to mess with if you want. They're not the best, but it's something!

I can only find the one head-on shot right now. I tend to take side pictures so that he doesn't look so narrow :shock:

If I remember, I'll take some good ones tomorrow for you and others to pick at :wink:


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## SaskGal (Apr 18, 2012)

He is small bones and has short legs in my opion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

SaskGal said:


> He is small bones and has short legs in my opion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The pally I just posted or the original chestnut?


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## SaskGal (Apr 18, 2012)

The guy u just posted. But I'm not no expert, so let someone else comment before u listen to what I said, ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

Mare I used to own, feel free to use her 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

10 year old gelding
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

My current barrel racing mare, 11 years old
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

My 7 year old gelding, only decent shot I had that you might be able to do a critique on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

That should get you guys started  I will dif through and see if I have anymore that you could use tomorrow!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

SaskGal said:


> The guy u just posted. But I'm not no expert, so let someone else comment before u listen to what I said, ok.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah. I wasn't expecting the small bones thought for him, I'd always thought he had fairly good bones. His body is in great health outside of issues with one spot on one hock. I guess his legs aren't too long, he's only about 15.2. To me they fit his QH body


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

Cowgirl, out of the horses you posted my favorite is the last! Gorgeous boy!

First and third are downhill which I don't like. Second one is cute but looks to have a long back, although that could be the picture angle. I think they're all pretty well put together though


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I have drawn some lines on this horse. He is downhill. Notice that while it looks level from root of neck to point of buttock the line from front foot to rear foot is angled. If he was parallel to the film plane, he would be down hill. The photo of him at the fence is also distorted as it looks like it was taken above him. 

He is long through the couping and the peak of croup is not only pronounced (too much so) it is also very high. His point of shoulder is set very low and the angle from point of shoulder to elbow is a low angle. He will be restricted in front. His neck is too short (see arrow.. that is about where his cheek should be) and this will make it harder for him to balance. He has poor angles in his hind legs albeit he does have nice low hocks and knees. I have attempted to draw what his hind leg should be. His gaskin is light (circled it) and he has something going on with that left front pastern and foot. Clubby looking foot? 

Notice his near hind foot.. it points in.. almost like he rotates his foot as he steps over it. This is an indication he may be bow legged behind. 

Pretty color.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I will get to the others as I have time...


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

This second palomino is a better horse. A tiny bit long in the coupling. Light bone below the hocks. Fairly level build. Acceptable shoulder. A little straight through the hock. Notice the whit mark on the withers.. horse was riddent in a saddle that did not fit at some point. A bit over weight. 

Part of the issue with this photo is the camera is too low.. looking UP at the horse and that distorts things to a point I won't say more.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

this horse is stretched out in stance so it is difficult to get a read on his hind leg angle. He doesn't have the nicest shoulder.. a bit steep. He is also quite long through the coupling which is his worse fault from this photo. He has a great hind quarter.. lots of power it seems... Because of his stance and the deep grass I cannot say he is downhill.. but I suspect he is. He has a look about him of a good boned cutting horse. No idea if he has seen cattle or has the lines.. but he has the look. I wish his coupling was just a bit shorter. Nice horse, nice expression.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Not a bad horse but very long in the back and somewhat swayed (circled). Good bone. Cannot judge hind leg angles from this photo. I want to say a bit downhill but not really. The shoulder is a bit steep and she also has a low point of shoulder and low angle from point of shoulder to elbow that will imit her front end movement. Decent bone. Not sure I like her neck whch may tie in low at the withers and be over long. Again.. the stance and her tail covering her off hind leg make further critique difficult.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Lst.. this horse is difficult to critique because of the saddle and rider. When you see an ad for a horse and it ihas a saddle on it, the seller is often trying to hide a long back. This horse is, again, a bit long through the coupling (I think!). He is build level and has a decent shoulder. He has a good rear end (good engine) and a nicely set head and neck. The photographer is a bit far to the rear so it is hard to say if neck length is too long or short. I suspect it fits just fine. 

My other concern, beside a long coupling, is his knees. Seems a little tied in at the knee and maybe a little back at the knee. Again.. photo angle could be the reason he looks this way.

Nice useful honest looking sort of horse.


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

Nice job elana! Thanks for the critique. The first mare did have a rough life before I got her, along with the white marks on her wither she actually has white stripes under her belly from her girth! The second mare, the Sorrel, is long overall and I think thinned boned. She has a steep shoulder and not the prettiest head. But man can she run a pattern. That pic was taken when i first got her and she was off for over a year being a pasture puff. I will post newer pics 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

More recent shot of Miss Abby
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

since we have several stock horses on this thread, here is an arab. 15 years old, endurance horse. this is the beginning of the season, so pasture condition. horrible trot, couldn't win a race(at a gallop) if she tried, but she goes forever and is sound, sound, sound.



mustang I used to own:


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

Is the first one a pure Arab? Its got the nicest hip I've seen in an Arab. Lol has a slightly steep shoulder, and maybe tied in at the knee. Can't tell much about her back legs but carries a decent amount of bone for an Arab. Slight ewe neck. 
Bet the mustang was hard to get a saddle to fit! Lol I like her head, nice short neck, might be a bit steep in the shoulder. Good bone andnice feet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

yes, she is pure, registered, DNA typed arab:lol: when I first got her I was skeptical too. her canter is not bad but her trot is awful. here is her other side for you, in case its a bit better. she typically rides on a loose rein, head down, but she does tend to revert to head-in-the-air-like-a-giraffe as soon as she's excited.



as far as the mustang, smooth to ride, but way too smart for her own good and LAZY. she would watch the other horses gallop around the pasture while she grazed, alone, at the bottom. and man could she buck when she wanted to!


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

Elana said:


> I have drawn some lines on this horse. He is downhill. Notice that while it looks level from root of neck to point of buttock the line from front foot to rear foot is angled. If he was parallel to the film plane, he would be down hill. The photo of him at the fence is also distorted as it looks like it was taken above him.
> 
> He is long through the couping and the peak of croup is not only pronounced (too much so) it is also very high. His point of shoulder is set very low and the angle from point of shoulder to elbow is a low angle. He will be restricted in front. His neck is too short (see arrow.. that is about where his cheek should be) and this will make it harder for him to balance. He has poor angles in his hind legs albeit he does have nice low hocks and knees. I have attempted to draw what his hind leg should be. His gaskin is light (circled it) and he has something going on with that left front pastern and foot. Clubby looking foot?
> 
> ...


He's standing kinda awkward in the picture, he is not club-footed. His back legs may slightly bowed though- I'll have to get some more, better pictures. He definitely is a little downhill and he has a bad hunters bump. He's looking a little toward the camera in the pic, his neck is actually a little longer than the picture portrays. 

I really appreciate the critique! I'll get some better pictures soon and start a thread for him to get some more thoughts on him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Someone else can draw lines if they want to.. y'all get the idea. 

The bay Arab has a very upright shoulder and low point of shoulder which is likely the source of her I assume bone jarring trot. She is also pretty straight through her hock. She has more body and leg on her than most Arabs and has pretty good bone. She is a bit high hocked and straight behind. Her coupling is long and her point of croup is back quite far. 

The grey mustang is long coupled and weak. She shows the draft influence (I have read that draft stallions were turned out with wild horses to breed the Indian Pony speed out). She has a round draft like rump, good bone, mutton withers and a thick base of neck although her neck does arch nicely. Her shoulder is thick and steep and drafty. She looks a bit over at the knee and maybe tied in at the knee. 

One thing that I hope my posts have pointed out is the importance of good photos. To get a good photo you need 3 people. One on the camera who knows what and how to shoot photos of horses. One person to help set the horse up. One on the lead to get the horse's head up and ears forward. 

The horse's body should be parallel to the film plane. Near legs should be plumb and the far legs with the front one back a bit (space to the knees) and the rear one forward a bit (space to the hocks). Ground should be level and firm.. no hiding legs in grass or standing in much or deep sand. Short level grass area is best. Photographer should stand opposite the area between the last rib and the hip of the horse. Camera should be the same height as the horse's hip. 

Setting up like this will give the best photo of the horse. When the camera is too high, too low, too far forward or back, and the film plane and the horse's back bone are not parallel you get distortion. You are putting a 3 dimensional living animal on a 2 dimensional surface. Good photos are essential. A good photographer can make soap bones look passable. A bad photographer can make a champion look like soap.


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## Weezilla (Aug 3, 2012)

Huge thanks to Elana for taking all this time to critique and to explain your critiques(and draw lines:razz!

Elana, am I correct in guessing that you have experience judging in 4-H or college? The terminology and flow in your replies so remind me of the classes I took in college on livestock judging.

Mods, maybe this thread could become a sticky? Or maybe we all could keep it going by posting confo shots?!

Until I can look for photos of my 2 Dearly Departeds, Here's a picture of my Edward's sire, Waldsee( I know its in B&W; my Edward was born in 1977 and crossed the Bridge in '09 at age 32). Edward was pretty much the spitting image of his sire.

If someone knows how to turn the URL into one that posts the photo on this page, do let me know

http://www.autumnsstables.com/img/sires/waldsee_01.jpg

Waldsee pedigree Waldsee Oldenburg


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Could someone focus on shoulder critique for a post? Even with a basic picture and "Steep shoulder" I just have no idea what is being referred to with that. I'm bad with hips too, but shoulder is what I really don't understand - how do you tell if the shoulder is steep? Upright? Where do you draw the line to tell?


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

Also can someone show me what "tied at the knee" means?


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

ForeverSunRider said:


> Also can someone show me what "tied at the knee" means?


My mare is a bit tied at the knee. It means that the long bone between the knee and ankle - that section of leg is narrower at the top near the knee than it is at the bottom on the front legs. Take my mare as the example.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Subbing, as I am rubbish at critiques and this is a very helpful, informative thread! Awesome idea~


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

There was a question about shoulder conformation. A correct shoulder lays back at a 45 degree angle from the horizontal when the front leg is plumb. The angle at the point of shoulder between the shoulder and humerus (point of shoulder to elbow) should be no less than 90 degrees and this makes the angle from point of shoulder to elbow at 45 degrees from horizontal. It is VERY important that the front leg be PLUMB to accurately see a shoulder (lots of experience can change this). That is correct. 

For some disciplines the shoulder can lay back more and the angle at point of shoulder can be greater than 90 degrees. Other disciplines the shoulder can be steeper and the angle more closed and the horse will do fine. 

Regarding my experience, No. I dropped out of 4H and never did any horse stuff in college other than a couple of stints riding to fulfill my PE requirement (and I ended up training some because I could and they got me for free). 

I have been looking at horses since I was 3 years old. Finally got a horse when I was 13. Spent several years pony clubbing and a couple of years fox hunting. Spent years training horses and doing some rescue work. Well over 30 years riding and training and some little bit of breeding. I have ridden by conservative estimate about 50,000 miles on horse back. 

Have no owned a horse in about 13 years now (divorce and all that stuff). I will again when I retire or if I make enough money to before that and I will do some training again because it is so very interesting. 

FWIW I do technical writing for a living.


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

What does a good hind end look like? like for a barrel horse or something.


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