# Color Conundrum



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

So many of us all know that Cinny has been considered black this whole time. Registered black, he fades to bay in the summer...but still we have said BLACK. 

But something else has happened with his color that leaves me a bit stumped and wondering if he really is a very dark dark bay. As far as I know if you clip a black horse, they will be black where you clipped because they are black. Is this correct?

Well, Cinny had his first blanket clip and well, he's NOT black where he is clipped. He is a light brown color, almost dun-ish I'm talking dark palomino or buckskin even. So does this mean he actually is a bay and not a black because he clips this color?

Here is a picture of his fresh clip. Please please do not critique my clipping....my blade went dull in the middle of my clip so he is really really blotchy. I am going to clean it up, don't worry.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

If he fades to bay in the summer he is probably brown.
Do you have more photos of him when he is not clipped?
You can't always go by registration papers either, as many people will call a brown horse black and the registry will not always correct this.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Oh and his sire is a black tobiano APHA, mare is chestunut AQHA

Here he is unclipped

This first one looks like a black and white picture, but it's not


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

I would say that he is brown, not true black. In the summer photo, there is some evident browness to his muzzle and an overall brown tone. Some can be very tricky to tell.
If the sire was indeed a true black, then there is still a chance that he inherited agouti from the mother, as red horse are known carriers of the gene, although they will not show it.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Actually a lot of black horses are not really dark black when clipped. I was looking to link to a good photo to show this. A quick search: Cross Country Dreamin': December 2009

And a Friesian: http://kingdomofhorses.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/body-clipped-horse.jpg

I'm not sure without additional photos of your horse one way or the other, but just pointing out that clipping can reveal funky colors.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Hmm, I am friends with the lady I got him from and she owns his dam. She just told me that the dam tested AA (homozygous agouti??). She also said she was told the sire was Homozygous black(EE) and heterozygos tobiano .

If both of these are true, according to the color calculator an EE sire and AA dam would only produce a bay foal.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Hmm, I am friends with the lady I got him from and she owns his dam. She just told me that the dam tested AA (homozygous agouti??). She also said she was told the sire was Homozygous black(EE) and heterozygos tobiano .
> 
> If both of these are true, according to the color calculator an EE sire and AA dam would only produce a bay foal.


Bay or brown. Only one place tests for At, the rest only test for the presence or absence of agouti, but not which type (brown or bay). If that is true, then I do believe your boy is brown for sure!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

what does he look like faded ?

i have a black mare that fades in the summer but she when she fades she looks more like a grulla than a bay.


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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

A clip job does not reveal the "true" color of a horse. The pigment in a hair follicle is different at the root than the rest of the horse. A clip job NEVER gives an accurate description of a horses's color. Your horse is black.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Cinny is 110% black going off of the pictures. If you are really wondering, pull the hair and send it in for testing.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

NDappy says the horse is black. Then its black. Thats good enough for me. 
Those pictures show a black horse. Shalom


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Definitely black even from the clip shots. Nothing wrong with black I like black horses personally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I agree and black horses DO indeed fade. Most of mine look like buckskins by the end of summer. Shalom


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I love that he's black. I was just confused when the lady that owns his dam told me the color testing information because the color calculator says 100% bay and my brain started to hurt ha ha.

He definitely fades very very bay. When we did the Dressage show at the Fair last year almost everyone did suitability because it was free and it was more like a judge's meet and greet/opinions. The judge was talking about the differences between everyone's horses, why they are different, why one gets higher points than the other and how many of us can make corrections. The whole time she called Cinny "THE BAY" lol. There were grays, sorrels, 2 black freisians, paints, appys and then Cinny was the only one with Bay coloring so everyone knew who she was talking about but I remember I kept wanting to yell HE'S BLACK!!! ha ha.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Every picture of Cinny I've seen, he has been black in. Does he do well in sheets? As in, doesn't destroy them. A sheet in the summer would prevent fading so much and keep him black. Or turning out at night.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

He is black in my opinion


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Poseidon said:


> Every picture of Cinny I've seen, he has been black in. Does he do well in sheets? As in, doesn't destroy them. A sheet in the summer would prevent fading so much and keep him black. Or turning out at night.


OH, I'm not worried about the fading. I used to be until his anti-fade supplements started messing with his already sensitive tummy. Now I just say "oh well." 

He does do well with his blankets and this summer I am going to be putting a fly sheet on him. I never did before because I was afraid he would get tan lines, I mean fade lines from the blanket


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

You could find out the answer for sure with a simple $25 test


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

We do not need a test we have Chillaa and NDappy. Thats all we need when it comes to colour or genetics. Saves the rest of us from reading all the technical terms and attending classes or reading books on the subject. Shalom


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## Blue Smoke (Dec 22, 2012)

If the dam tested AA for agouti though, there is no way the horse can be genetically black... He'd have to be bay or brown because he 100% for sure got at least one agouti gene. My vote for brown, a very dark and pretty brown


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I would either like to see proof of his dam's homozygous agouti, or my vote is test Cinny for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Maybe the test for the dam was "aa" and was mistranslated lol


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

lilruffian said:


> If he fades to bay in the summer he is probably brown.
> Do you have more photos of him when he is not clipped?
> *You can't always go by registration papers either*, as many people will call a brown horse black and the registry will not always correct this.


Isn't that the truth - according the searchable JC records, Aero (aka Lady Brave Heart) is a chestnut -- she is bay as bay can be. I finally reached out to the JC because the marking descriptions and part of the tattoo we could read all matched - everything but the color (and that is kind of a big discrepancy). I received confirmation that Aero is the horse in question, a mistake had been made on her foal papers and that there had never been a request filed to correct the foal papers -- all her other records carried the correct color description. I can't say I understand all of how the JC papers work, but coming direct from the JC that this IS the horse in question and then having it verified when we located her original owner/breeder is all the convincing I need. So, officially if you look up her tattoo you will get a "chestnut filly" result, when she is anything but.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Hahaha agreed, I'd trust Ndappy and Chiilaa (sp? Sorry, been awhile!) over someone's "recollection" of a test being done. 

I want to know if Jynx is brown, black or smokey black. Ndappy told me just to test or I'll never know because she doesn't have enough color to get a good gauge - that's good enough for me! Hopefully testing this year along with LWO!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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