# So-Called "Harsh" bits



## GeenasGQ (Dec 22, 2010)

In my short time being here, I’m noticed a bit of controversy over bitting horses. 

smrobs and JustDressageIt both have lots of information on bits but I’ve noticed some of the bits have slightly biased explanations. As all people have their opinions on bits, I feel it is necessary for the “harsher” or “stronger” bits to be explained in as much detail as the “softer” bits.

_I’d like to start by saying that ALL bits can be harsh if used in the wrong hands, as well as most bits can be relatively soft if put in the right hands. It’s a matter of knowing what you are doing and what purpose you would like your bit to perform._ This being said, _*these bits are best off in experienced hands or under the supervision of a trainer that has experience using this bit.*_

I’d also like to add that I am posting this solely to even the playing ground between bits. I don’t necessarily think that all of these bits are “nice” bits, nor would I use all of them, but I feel like NEARLY every bit has a purpose somewhere and many bits have been given a bad reputation because of the hands they have been used in. Especially in the gag bit category, many of these bits are actually pretty mild bits and are great if used for the correct purpose in experienced hands.


*SNAFFLES/MOUTHPIECES*
_(these bits are direct pressure bits that do not have a shank. Most commonly, they are broken at one or two joints on the mouthpiece, but there are some snaffles that do not have this characteristic. These lay on the horse’s tongue and bars of the mouth. These are mainly descriptions of the mouthpieces that are typically seen on snaffles but can also be seen on shanked bits.)_

*Slow Twist*

This is a single-jointed mouthpiece with a slight twist in it. The ridges caused by the twisting make pressure points on the bars of the mouth.










*Twisted Wire*

The single-jointed mouthpiece that looks like it have two thin pieces of wire twisted together to form the mouthpiece. It is strong across the bars and tongue of the horse's mouth.










*Chain*

The chain mouthpiece collapses at every chain, therefore making it a bit with lots of movement. It can slide back and forth in the horse’s mouth, as well as give direction with the chain links. This bit is typically used for horses that tend to fight against the bit. Because it is such a fluid bit, it doesn’t offer much to fight against.










*Corkscrew*

This bit works similarly to the twisted wire, but the ridges are more defined. It is thicker than a twisted wire, but is thinner than a slow twist.










*Double Twisted Wire*

A Double Twisted Wire bit has two wires like the ones in the plain twisted wire bit. They break at two different points, offering an opportunity to put pressure points on two spots in the horse’s mouth at once. This bit is basically used to amplify the pressure you see from the plain twisted wire.










*Bike Chain*

This bit works similarly to the chain bit. It offers the same effect but with added severity by having bike chain in place of the regular chain links.










*Saw Mouth/Mule*

This bit is made from a piece of chainsaw. Not much information is out there about this bit because (this is one of the bits I think are unnecessary) it is too severe to be recognized by any equine competitions.












*GAG BITS*
_(gag bits work on the horse’s lips and poll. They are typically used in events where the horse is running and may become overly excited to have extra control if necessary. Most commonly used for polo, eventing, show jumping, and gaming.)_

*Wonder Bit*

This bit comes in a variety of different mouthpieces but the most common is the smooth snaffle. This bit can be used as a snaffle mouth if the reins are connected to the larger of the four rings that is directly connected to the mouthpiece. By clipping the reins onto the ring under that, you get a mild curb effect with a slight poll pressure. The third ring applies the most curb and poll effect/pressuere. the mouth piece will slide up the rings when the reins are picked up before making contact. This gives the horse an opportunity to respond to the request before full contact is made between the rider and their horse’s mouth.

I really like how this article explains the use of this bit:Link











*3 Ring/Dutch/Elevator
*
All three of these bits work similarly to the wonder bit. Wherever the reins are placed on the bit, the most severe or less severe the bit can be. All three have different options and the ones closes to the mouthpiece offer the lease amount of shank pressure, while the ones furthest away from the mouthpiece offer the most amount of shank pressure.


















*Combination Bit*

This bit works as a hackamore and a gag bit in one. What’s supposed to happen is that it works as a hackamore, but if the horse doesn’t respond, the pressure will go onto the bit to reinforce what has been asked of the horse. They are meant to disperse the pressure of the bit to multiple points, the nose, the mouth that the curb chain/strap. This bit looks like there is a lot to it, but it is a fairly mild choice because of the multiple pressure points. There are many different kinds of combination bits and it is necessary that you find the one that will work best for you, as they all apply pressure in different places at different times. Your specific horse may want more nose pressure than poll or curb pressure. You just need to find the right fit for your horse. Also make sure you have someone help you put this bit on properly as there are a lot of pieces and they can easily be put on improperly. 










*Sliding Gag Bit*

This bit is like a backwards D-ring snaffle but typically has shanks. the mouthpiece is able to move up and down the curve of the D, working similarly to how the wonder bit and 3-ring gag work by holding off on direct contact by letting the mouthpiece slide on the ring. when it reaches the end, the gag effect occurs.










*Draw Gag Bit*

A sliding gag slides up and down round headstall cheeks. This typically acts to make a quicker action on the bit but also instant relief. These are the bits that you will see with the rope as a part of the headstall. The rope adds extra sliding mobility for the bit. These bits are typically used to teach a horse to carry it’s head correctly.










*American*

This bit is typically looks similar to the letter “H” in shape. This bit has a ring to make the bit act like a snaffle and then another ring at the end of the fairly long shank. This bit applies more curb pressure than the other bits mentioned before but still has the slight poll pressure that all gags do. Reins can be connected to both rings to work similarly to a double bridle, but it is not necessary.












This is a quote I found while researching that I thought fit:
_“A bit is also a tool. Bits come in many designs and sizes and you need to select the right design and size for your intended purpose. It is frustrating [..] to constantly see people use incorrect equipment, or use correct equipment incorrectly, then blame their poor horses for the results that they get.”_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I absolutely agree that ANY bit can be harsh (one of the reasons I don't let the beginners on my horse!). 

But why there is even a need for the twisted wire bit? Bit is nothing but a communication device, so I just don't get how twisted wire snaffle can be more useful _for communication_ than say a plain french mouth? This is not a question to OP :wink: , but anyone who has more experience with the bits than me. So far I've seen wire bit to be used only to control the horses - meaning (and that was told me directly by one of the local trainers :shock: ) to make it painful, so the horse would obey.


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

The thing that bothers me the most is when some people are complaning about a "harsh" bit, they are allways like "Yeah, I'll stick to my snaffle"... Um, Hello? Does it not rain on you that "snaffle" does not mean "nice"?
Sorry that just bothers me. It is very evedent by the "chainsaw" snaffle that not all snaffles are nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

Of all "harsh" bits, I actually feel like the one you call the draw gag is less severe than most if used properly with two reins. One rein virtually makes it a snaffle, while the other simply exerts some poll pressure. Not that I advocate for this bit, but my trainer uses them (a practice I don't particularly approve of) and I've learned that a horse is virtually the same in a snaffle and a gag (given that you don't ride the curb rein.) 
The horse I ride was having lots of issues with her plain fat snaffle-gag. She would brace against the bit and pull me out of the saddle with her nose to the ground. She would blatantly ignore cues I gave her. I used every "soft" cue I could, but to no avail. We switched her to a Barry Gag (aka double snaffle-gag) and she tried pulling once, twice, then never again. She found that she had zero leverage against this bit. Now she stops and listens to me when I cue her, and our jumping has improved greatly. KEEP IN MIND that now that her bit is "harsher" I use much less of my hands to cue her for anything.

I am not, in any way, saying that a harsher bit is a substitute for good training. I just feel in my situation it worked well to teach a horse to actually listen to me. Also keep in mind that even though I said that said we are using a draw gag, that is almost irrelevant for me, because I ride with very little pressure on the curb rein that gives poll pressure.
No comments on the fact that my trainer uses gags frequently. I hate it, and I've considered switching, but I absolutely love the horses and the people, even though the trainer's practices are questionable. I go out and learn a lot on my own. She is in no way my only source of information.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

To start a young horse, the d ring snaffle is fine right? I do have soft hands and do more give and take than anything. Where is the pressure put on most of these bits?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I'd like to point out, in a hopefully noncontroversial way, that I think the whole point of smrobs and JDI posting their bit threads was not because most of the bits you posted are "bad" or "terrible" etc but because the majority of the users of this forum DO NOT have the experienced hands necessary to use bits that have the possibility for real harshness. 
Most people, I think, are on here to solve problems with their horses, to learn about riding, and become better horse people since they are beginning to average horsewomen/men. Also (I've been a part of this forum for almost 3 years so I've seen this) most people only really stay for a few months, therefore, imo, the older, more experienced, members kinda try to make their time here as informative and clear as possible. There are a few users on this forum that I would have no fear of them using any sort of "harsh" bit since I know they have the hands, but the majority of the videos I see of people riding on HF make me glad that they are riding in a snaffle.

I see where you are coming from and I do think it's a noble cause, just perhaps one for a more experienced forum.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Will reply in more detail later, but here is my question: why would one need a double offset twisted wire? The point behind that bit is pain, pure and simple. 
I understand your explanations, and you are correct with a lot of the descriptions, but my personal feeling is that there is no need for most of these bits; that the "cure" for the problems these bits are created for is not the bit but proper riding/schooling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tasia (Aug 17, 2009)

I look at it both JDI. Her could be complamenting yours aswell because if we can educate others on these bits they may feel less entitled to use them.


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## GeenasGQ (Dec 22, 2010)

Wallaby said:


> I'd like to point out, in a hopefully noncontroversial way, that I think the whole point of smrobs and JDI posting their bit threads was not because most of the bits you posted are "bad" or "terrible" etc but because the majority of the users of this forum DO NOT have the experienced hands necessary to use bits that have the possibility for real harshness.
> .


what I saw from these posts was that the bits were referred to as "icky" bits. Sure, they are not ideal. 

and Also, There are people who know what they are doing who come here for advice on bitting their horses, not criticism. In example, Myself. I came here because I wanted a second opinion on some things I've been thinking about and I do know how to ride softly. there may be the majority of people who want to learn the basics to riding but Like some of the people who are replying to this thread, there are some people who are experienced enough and should be given the information on these bits. at least I HOPE that everyone replying to this thread criticizing me for it has come into contact with these bits before because otherwise, you're as uneducated as the next person and that's exactly why this post was made so you are basically proving my point.



JustDressageIt said:


> Will reply in more detail later, but here is my question: why would one need a double offset twisted wire? The point behind that bit is pain, pure and simple.
> I understand your explanations, and you are correct with a lot of the descriptions, but my personal feeling is that there is no need for most of these bits; that the "cure" for the problems these bits are created for is not the bit but proper riding/schooling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


like I said, I'm not advocating any of these bits, as I'm not necessarily going to use them but It's unfair to not put them out there in a fashion where people can understand how they work. That's the real purpose of this post. understanding how all of these bits work so if you come into a situation where someone tells you to use one of these bits, you know exactly what you are getting into and not just "oh. it's another snaffle except people don't like it" 

If you were to use a "harsher" bit, wouldn't you rather know how it's working on your horse? No one should use any bit without knowing it's purpose. much like I had a trainer who put a horse i ride into a wonder gag bit for western pleasure training. She even was not aware that the purpose of that bit it to keep horses from leaning on the bit and raise their head (she was trying to train her to put her head down) and the wonder bit has uses for everything basically except teaching collection and a steady headset. 

It's good for everyone to know which bits they are using and how they function in order to get the results desired. sure, many people don't like these bits but it is a decision that you will need make for your horse/rider team. Especially the gag bits, which I've seen are really pretty common, need to be used properly and no one I know really knows how they are used. everyone just passes it off as "once you pull hard enough it gags your horse" which in a way is true, but that's not exactly how the bit is intended to work.

I just don't think people should be criticized if they make an *educated* decision that it's necessary to work in one of these bits. but I do feel that most people are not educated on these bits and they just sound terrible (i mean, "gag" bits. it sounds terrible, doesn't it?) therefore everyone is against them. Feel free to have your opinions on these bits and on my post, but people should be educated in ALL bits, not just what one person thinks is right.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

GeenasGQ said:


> 1)
> No one should use any bit without knowing it's purpose.
> It's good for everyone to know which bits they are using and how they function in order to get the results desired. sure, many people don't like these bits but it is a decision that you will need make for your horse/rider team. Especially the gag bits, which I've seen are really pretty common, need to be used properly and no one I know really knows how they are used. everyone just passes it off as "once you pull hard enough it gags your horse" which in a way is true, but that's not exactly how the bit is intended to work.
> 
> ...


1)
I agree, it is great to know the purpose of these bits, and I certainly agree that nobody should use a bit they don't understand. 
My big issue is that people resort to these bits in the first place. For the life of me, I cannot understand why someone would need to use a double twisted wire, or a bike chain, or a mule bit. Most of these harsher bits are designed to give one a "quick fix." Nothing in horses is quick. My whole point is that if a horse is ridden in contact, you should not be putting something in their mouths that has the potential to inflict damage/pain while the horse seeks/is on contact. 
From an English standpoint, a gag (especially a sliding gag) is counterproductive; a horse won't be able to seek nor hold contact. A twisted or wire or chain or.. anything else bit... can be viewed the same way: why would a horse want to seek contact, and hold contact, against something that is painful to do so with?
2) 
There are very few instances where I would condone the use of most of the bits above. I will not comment on Western disciplines; the bits used there are (on principle) used while neck-reining, and the horse is not expected to take up contact with such bits. With English riding, I can certainly understand and appreciate the use of a double-rein setup for some of the higher level competitions; but I grimace when I see giant bit set-ups with one rein, or pelham connectors. 

I'm not sure I made too much sense, please let me know if you would like anything clarified.


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## GeenasGQ (Dec 22, 2010)

See, I'm coming from a western stand point where i try to use as little contact as possible.

But by putting these bits out there, I'm trying to say "this is what this bit does. use it if you need specifically this, but don't use it for reasons of needing a harder bit for your horse"


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I have used the slow twist before, but in what instance would you use something like the double twisted wire bit?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

GeenasGQ said:


> See, I'm coming from a western stand point where i try to use as little contact as possible.
> 
> But by putting these bits out there, I'm trying to say "this is what this bit does. use it if you need specifically this, but don't use it for reasons of needing a harder bit for your horse"


But that's exactly the question, WHAT is the purpose of the wire or mule bit? 

GeenasGQ, I'm not trying to jump on you :wink: , I'm just really curious. I searched on net, and just couldn't find any info.


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

mbender said:


> To start a young horse, the d ring snaffle is fine right? I do have soft hands and do more give and take than anything. *Where is the pressure put on most of these bits?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



If the bit is jointed.. then it will put pressure on the tongue, bars of the mouth, roof of the mouth, and possibly corners of the lips. 

E


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I have used the slow twist before, but in what instance would you use something like the double twisted wire bit?


 The point is that the horse will feel it more because there is less surface area on the mouth. Less surface area with more pull equals more pressure. It may also pinch a little.

Honestly, having had come in contact with these, they're not as bad as people make them out to be. I know, "wire" sounds really bad, but they're actually pretty soft. As long as you're not tugging on the horse's mouth, I find them fairly gentle, although not ideal. I just don't like how people lump double twisted with bike chain and mule bits on the harshness scale.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Tymer said:


> Honestly, having had come in contact with these, they're not as bad as people make them out to be. I know, "wire" sounds really bad, but they're actually pretty soft. As long as you're not tugging on the horse's mouth, I find them fairly gentle, although not ideal. I just don't like how people lump double twisted with bike chain and mule bits on the harshness scale.


The double twisted wire not only rubs the lips, it also crackerjacks on the tongue in two different places, pinching it in a W shape. 
Wire is not soft; as soon as contact is picked up at all, it rubs against the corners of the mouth. It does not encourage contact, nor self carriage, nor seeking contact; it's a tool for "get off my hands" or "stop RIGHT NOW," both of which can be attained through proper training and taking time to get it right.

***

I believe I specified in my snaffle and English bit article that I was writing towards an audience whose horses were expected to take and keep contact, or horses who were direct-reining. If I didn't specify that, or if it is hard to understand, I apologize, but there is good reason I call them "icky" bits.


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> The double twisted wire not only rubs the lips, it also crackerjacks on the tongue in two different places, pinching it in a W shape.
> Wire is not soft; as soon as contact is picked up at all, it rubs against the corners of the mouth. It does not encourage contact, nor self carriage, nor seeking contact; it's a tool for "get off my hands" or "stop RIGHT NOW," both of which can be attained through proper training and taking time to get it right.
> 
> ***
> ...


 Oh no, its not a good training tool at all. In fact, I hardly see a use for it. The only situation where I see it fit is if a horse has lost complete respect for the bit to the point where no training is working. Even then it is more likely the fault of the rider. And even then it should only be used for a few sessions to accomplish the goal: respect. Silly bit, really. 

And yes, it is potentially one of the worst bits for dressage or any high contact English riding. It is quite icky, I agree. Not my favorite by any means. Just not a mule bit.

Its weird when I see threads like this, because I feel like I have a bit of a different perspective. My trainer currently has two horses in a double twisted wire bit, and both are happy and work well. When I read all the potential it has to be "icky" it doesn't make a connection with me. In fact, a horse that used to work in a double gag was more than happy to change to a double twisted wire. She seems much more eager to work than before. Maybe it has to do with the rider's already soft hands, maybe she hated the gag action or simply didn't like the excessive amounts of leather on her face, but a double twisted wire bit was a much better bit for her. Interesting.
(I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to share my take. People seem to get that I think they're wrong when I talk about my experience with bits.)


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm confused as to you, OP, saying, "People need to know _how_ the bits work!" when JDI's thread has a description of how every one she listed works.

ETA: It is also labeled "English-type bits." English=contact, in almost all situations. _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GeenasGQ (Dec 22, 2010)

Sunny said:


> I'm confused as to you, OP, saying, "People need to know _how_ the bits work!" when JDI's thread has a description of how every one she listed works.
> 
> ETA: It is also labeled "English-type bits." English=contact, in almost all situations. _Posted via Mobile Device_


What I primarily got from the descriptions of these bits on the other thread was that they were harsh and hurt the horse's mouth/caused the horse pain. I don't find that to be explaining them, personally. I find that to be turning them away from the bit because of personal preference on that bit. No, these are not the "most gentle" bits to use on a horse, but again, it's the rider's decision to use which bit they want to use, and I'd rather them be educated fully in the ways of the bit than jumping straight up to the most severe of bits, not knowing the "in betweens."

Also, the post is titled "snaffle *and* english-type bits" To me, that says exactly that. there are snaffle bits and there are english-type bits. Sure, they overlap, but snaffles are not only used for english riding. There are also a few bits on the thread that are specifically labeled as western bits, or typical western bits, which to me says again that they are under the category of _Snaffle_ bits, not _english-type_ bits.

I'm sorry but I do not see anywhere that specifies that these bits are "icky" because contact is unwanted on them. I feel like by looking at them, that should be common sense, to be honest. but for riders that ride with little to no contact and I don't think that all of them are "icky" bits.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

If a person has the know-how to be able to use one of these bits correctly, they don't need an explanation of what it does. If you need to google a bit like these to find out how it works, then you should not be using it. It takes more than knowing the effect on the horse to know if a bit will work. 

This is all my opinion of course. I have never ridden any of my own horses in the past in anything other than a plain eggbutt or loose ring snaffle. I prefer a wider one too for my own horses. For school horses, I ride in whatever bit is on the horse's bridle, as 99% of students do. I checked out every schoolie's bridle at the riding school I ride at, they have a wall with about 30 on them. The harshest bit there was a d-ring, with a thin mouth piece. I love my riding school lol. I am sure that the instructors must have some doubles around though, but judging by what they have in the hands of beginners, I doubt they have anything above a mild double set up.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

If it is such "common sense" then what is your problem with the whole situation?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BarrelRacer86 (Jul 6, 2010)

I agree with you. Mainly I think people need to understand the function of a bit before they label it "terriable" because then everyone who does use a gag or twisted wire bit gets seen as a horriable person even if they know how to properly use the bit
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GeenasGQ (Dec 22, 2010)

Sunny said:


> If it is such "common sense" then what is your problem with the whole situation?


at this point, I feel like you are reading what you want to hear. It's not common sense to not use the bits, it's common sense to not use them with contact, at least in my opinion. but some people may not see that by just looking at them. 

My problem lies in exactly what BarrelRacer86 said:



BarrelRacer86 said:


> I agree with you. Mainly I think people need to understand the function of a bit before they label it "terrible" because then everyone who does use a gag or twisted wire bit gets seen as a horrible person even if they know how to properly use the bit


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I understand exactly what you mean.

If it's common sense to not use these bits with contact, then your point is moot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GeenasGQ (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm sorry but I don't get how you understand my post if you are calling my point "moot." 

seeing as JDI did not specify clearly that these bits were specifically english and were "icky" because she was referring to them being used with contact, I assumed they were under the "snaffle" category, therefore usable for either discipline, not only english. So the point to this post, which you clearly do not understand, is that these bit are not always "icky" bits. some people may not see the purpose of them, but some people make the decision to use them, so I feel that before you go out and try an "icky" bit, you should know what it's doing to your horse not just "hurting their lips" or something similar to that discription. majority of these bits do have a purpose and are not actually deathly severe, as they are portrayed to be, if used correctly with little to no contact aka western or as a "snaffle", not necessarily an "english-type" bit.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I understand that they aren't "icky" when not used with contact. I'm not stupid, but thanks for that insinuation. :wink:

_You_ aren't understanding what I am saying, and I am not going to try to explain it, for many reasons.

Good day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Snaffles are designed to be used with contact. No matter wether they are on a western horse or english horse. You can teach a horse to respond to shifts of weight, or the weight of the reins, or legs - But you have to use contact to get there.

If a twisted wire bit was going to go on a horse who neck reins perfectly and doesn't need you to touch the reins, then why would you use a twisted wire in the first place, if the mouthpiece is nhot being used? Would you not choose something more comfortable for the horse to carry? You can get smooth bits just as thin as a twisted wire if that is what you are after.

So it is *common sense* that anyone who picks up a twisted wire to use is going to, at some point, have contact on it. A well trained, responsive neck reined horse wouldn't need it. 

There is no other way around it - These bits, wether they be twisted, bike chain, etc, work by applying pain. The same bit but smooth will apply the same amount of pressure, and yep, maybe some pain as well. The only function of adding such dramatic texture is to inflict pain. It sure doesn't create more pressure, only changing the diameter of the bit will do that. 

It is not hard to educate yourself if you have the desire. I don't think there is any need to be painting these bits as anything but tools that can inflict pain easier than most other bits to the general public. As someone else mentioned - If you have the required skill to use one of these bits, you are either not going to need it because you trained your horse correctly in the first place, or you will not need to be asking on the internet about how they work or should you use one - They will already know.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Excellent post, Wild_Spot! I've been trying to think of how to say a very similar thing but I just couldn't think of how to put it and you put it really well.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> Snaffles are designed to be used with contact. No matter wether they are on a western horse or english horse. You can teach a horse to respond to shifts of weight, or the weight of the reins, or legs - But you have to use contact to get there.
> 
> If a twisted wire bit was going to go on a horse who neck reins perfectly and doesn't need you to touch the reins, then why would you use a twisted wire in the first place, if the mouthpiece is nhot being used? Would you not choose something more comfortable for the horse to carry? You can get smooth bits just as thin as a twisted wire if that is what you are after.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. WS put this very eloquently - it's what I wanted to say but couldn't find the words.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I think all bits are meant to be used with contact at some point, or the horse would never know to respect and give to it. Even western bits, which are primarily used with very little contact, such as the weight of the reins, must make contact with the horse at some point or the horse would never respect and give to it, right?

Otherwise we would all be riding in halters with just the weight of the lead rope to tell the horse what we wanted.

I look at bits kind of like walking softly but carrying a big stick. I never want to use the big stick, but if I didn't carry it, the horse wouldn't collect up and give to it. He would probably just flat out not respect me on his back or follow my directions at all. I am including any kind of "real" head gear in this, even bitless bridles and the various forms of hackamores. If there wasn't some element of control, we wouldn't need to use them. Maybe I'm not looking at it right, but at this moment, that is what I am thinking. 

I personally wouldn't use most of the bits shown in the beginning of the post, but I think many of them have a place. I do dislike the gag/hackamore combinations that barrel racers use. I admit I never have used one, but I have never seen the need to have _that_ much control. And most of the twisted wire bits I would never personally use. But that doesn't mean they may not have a place somewhere. 

When I see twisted wire bits used in a way I think is correct, I picture a trainer in an arena working on a horse that maybe isn't as soft as it should be, and that bit will get the horse to respect the bit and make it soft. That trainer would be using his/her fingertips to communicate with the bit. But I could never image using one outside of an arena, because in an emergency I would never want to make real contact with that bit. I see it more as a finesse and training bit, not a bit the horse stays in or really rides in for any length of time. 

I have seen one person who rides trails in a twisted wire snaffle, on a very young horse too, but all I can see is disaster in the making, because if the horse ever spooked, what would she do? I don't think she could really pull straight back or even turn without cutting the horse's mouth in an emergency situation. So I see it almost like not having brakes at all. If you ever made contact it would be a wreck or bloody mouth in the making, but I digress....


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Trailhorserider, ideally the bit isn't used for control, it's a means for subtle communication; a horse should be ridden mostly off of seat and leg, no matter the discipline. Western horses work off of contact, whereas it is imperative for English horses to accept and work INTO contact. 
A horse *should* ideally be ridden back to front - if the horse isn't accepting the bit or isn't responsive to the bit, or doesn't respect the bit... it isn't a bit problem; it's a training hole that needs to be fixed. This is me speaking from experience. Do they soften up a horse's mouth? Nope, the horse starts evading the bit by dropping behind the bit. Do they make a horse respect the bit? Kinda, in a backwards fashion; the horse learns that bit=pain, and starts evading it. 
Communication with the horse starts with the seat and legs, most of your riding should stem from the seat and legs. Finesse does not come from pain or a harsh bit, it comes from a horse that's been properly trained to work back to front, and a rider who knows how to ride back to front - and such a horse/rider pair knows no need for a twisted wire or mule bit.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

trailhorserider said:


> 1) I look at bits kind of like walking softly but carrying a big stick. I never want to use the big stick,
> 2)but if I didn't carry it, the horse wouldn't collect up and give to it.
> 3) When I see twisted wire bits used in a way I think is correct, I picture a trainer in an arena working on a horse that maybe isn't as soft as it should be, and that bit will get the horse to respect the bit
> 4) I have seen one person who rides trails in a twisted wire snaffle, on a very young horse too, but all I can see is disaster in the making, because if the horse ever spooked, what would she do? I don't think she could really pull straight back or even turn without cutting the horse's mouth in an emergency situation. So I see it almost like not having brakes at all. If you ever made contact it would be a wreck or bloody mouth in the making, but I digress....


1) Are 1 and 4 not the same thing? Carrying the big stick means that you might have to use it at some point, just as the person in 4. If you have to use the bit for whatever reason, you are using the big stick, and that could have adverse consequences
2) collection and giving does not start or end with the bit. The horse's head is a hood ornament; when the body is correct, the head falls into place. By concentrating on where the head is, you are creating a false frame, and by correcting with a harsh bit, you are more than likely asking the horse to drop behind the bit and evade. Collection has nothing to do with the horse's head, and frame=/= collection. Collection is when a horse's body compresses, when the "spring is loaded" and the horse shifts more weight onto the hind end, lightens up the front end, and compresses his strides - it has virtually nothing to do with the head, other than the horse cannot be truly collected if he is not in a true frame which means the head is in the correct place simply by default. *breathes*
3) See the mass of text in #2. Softness does not come from the bit. 
4) I see a disaster in the making too.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> 1) Are 1 and 4 not the same thing? Carrying the big stick means that you might have to use it at some point, just as the person in 4. If you have to use the bit for whatever reason, you are using the big stick, and that could have adverse consequences
> 2) collection and giving does not start or end with the bit. The horse's head is a hood ornament; when the body is correct, the head falls into place. By concentrating on where the head is, you are creating a false frame, and by correcting with a harsh bit, you are more than likely asking the horse to drop behind the bit and evade. Collection has nothing to do with the horse's head, and frame=/= collection. Collection is when a horse's body compresses, when the "spring is loaded" and the horse shifts more weight onto the hind end, lightens up the front end, and compresses his strides - it has virtually nothing to do with the head, other than the horse cannot be truly collected if he is not in a true frame which means the head is in the correct place simply by default. *breathes*
> 3) See the mass of text in #2. Softness does not come from the bit.
> 4) I see a disaster in the making too.


I understand the concept of collection meaning the horse is being ridden from back to front. But if the horse isn't soft to the bit and head carriage isn't important, they why do we even bother with it? Don't we all want a horse that is soft to the bit? 

The difference between #1 and #4 is that #1's "big stick" can be a normal snaffle, a curb, a bitless bridle, etc. The "big stick" can be anything that the rider needs it to be and feels comfortable riding the horse in. I am just of the belief that the big stick should be something you can actually make contact with in an emergency. If I make contact with a snaffle, curb, hackamore, whatever, hopefully the horse will give to it and I will regain control and we will go on our merry way with no harm done to either of us. I personally would never feel comfortable trail riding a horse in bit that would likely damage the mouth with normal contact. 

That is why I think something like a twisted wire snaffle is best used in an arena/ training type situation. If I actually NEED some contact to regain control (like in a spook) I want the horse to respect the bit, come back into my hands and not be injured by it. 

_4) I see a disaster in the making too. _ 

And just what do you mean by that? 

I swear nothing stirs up The Horse Forum like a discussion on bits! :lol: And bits are one of my favorite subjects.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

trailhorserider said:


> I understand the concept of collection meaning the horse is being ridden from back to front. But if the horse isn't soft to the bit and head carriage isn't important, they why do we even bother with it? Don't we all want a horse that is soft to the bit?
> 
> The horse BECOMES soft to the bit due to him being ridden back to front. I don't know why so much emphasis is put on the horse's head carriage; it's incorrect to start with the head, but people hear "the head must be down" so they force the head down thinking it's correct. No. The head *falls into place when the horse achieves a true frame*. Working back to front. The problem is that it takes a lot of schooling to get a horse into a true frame, so they fake it with getting the head down instead. It's the "head must be down!" mentality. People get fixated on the head, and forget that the head is a by-product of the horse working correctly. The horse doesn't work correctly because the head is down, the head is down because the horse is working correctly.
> 
> ...


Answers above in blue, obviously


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

While we are on this subject, why must English horses work into contact? Just tradition, or is there an actual reason? 

I have always ridden western, and I always like a horse that is both soft to the bit but will also ride on a loose rein, at least at the walk. I will usually ride with light contact at the trot and canter, but if the horse is rating himself, then I give him slack at those gaits too.

So why are English horses ridden into contact? 

I kind of have the same quanundrum with gaited horses. My friend (who has experience with them) tells me to ride them with contact. While I can do this, I'm really not sure why they can't be ridden more like a western horse?

I guess what I am wondering is, why isn't it the goal of ALL riders to stay off the horse's mouth as much as possible? Do horses really like being ridden with contact? I guess, since I learned to ride western, I would rather ride with a mild curb and rarely have to use it than ride in a super mild snaffle bit that I would always have to use. Does that make sense?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Why would a trainer need a wire bit, though? That's my whole point. If a horse spooks, especially in an arena, it is in such a controlled enviroment that you should not need a wire to get him stopped. You should be able to circle, or get him flexing, or disengage the hindquarter... or something. No wires needed. 

I guess all I am saying is that I could see a trainer (western) riding in an arena using a twisted wire bit to soften a horse. Maybe I am incorrect in thinking there is EVER a need for a twisted wire bit. I certainly would never use one myself. But I could see using it in a controlled area where spooks would not be an issue.

The reason I mention spooking and making contact in an emergency, is that I trail ride. That's all I do- I don't even have access to an arena (although it would be nice). So I guess my perspective is coming from my own experiences. I want to be able to ride the horse in open country with elk popping out of the trees and still be able to make contact and regain control in an emergency. 

Actually, I think we agree on quite a bit. I am kind of playing devil's advocate on the twisted wire bits. I don't even own one. 

I am also guilty of riding with my reins "thrown away" (as my friend would say). So I guess I don't quite understand the need for riding with contact nearly all the time, unless it is to hold the horse into collection, which you say isn't the right way to go about it. 

I believe I know what collection is because I'm sure I've felt it. And it usually comes when my horse(s) get excited, want to go faster than I want them to, and they do this lovely, rolling canter (or nice smooth trot, with the back raised, and not as bumpy as a loose-reined trot). So I'm sure I know the feel, but I don't know the feel unless I also have contact with the head in the vertical position. I guess that's why I put the two together. I know the feeling of power when the horse wants to go and you keep them at a set speed, and it feels wonderful. So that is what collection is to me. Controlled power. If it's not that, then maybe I've never experienced it, which is always possible, because I've never had formal lessons. :lol:

So if contact is not tied in with collection, why ride with contact? 
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/so-called-harsh-bits-74209/page4/#ixzz19eoPWFSf​


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

trailhorserider said:


> While we are on this subject, why must English horses work into contact? Just tradition, or is there an actual reason?
> 
> I have always ridden western, and I always like a horse that is both soft to the bit but will also ride on a loose rein, at least at the walk. I will usually ride with light contact at the trot and canter, but if the horse is rating himself, then I give him slack at those gaits too.
> 
> ...


English horses are expected to work into contact, and accept a rider's hands, and the bit. They are not to fuss with the bit, nor the feeling of contact, it's a mark of a trained horse to not chomp at the bit, fuss with the head, or balk away from contact. This shows that the rider is quiet yet supportive with his rein aids, and the horse has been properly schooled to accept the feel of a bit, the rider's hands, and whatever aids may arise. You don't see many horses fussing with a bit on a loose rein, regardless of training, unless they're new to the bit, or something is bugging them. You see a LOT of horses fussing with the bit when contact is picked up, so a quiet horse/rider pair is (supposed to be) a better trained pair than a horse who is fidgeting or gaping at the bit because he's either a) not trained to accept the bit, or b) the rider isn't quiet with their hands. 
In English riding, we require very very precise, very invisible aids, to be able to accomplish some of the things you see. The horse must respond to seat, leg, and very subtle rein cues for balance, which usually involve collection to one degree or another. For example, a rollback from one jump to another - you must get the horse to sit back on his haunches, lighten up his front end, round around your inside leg, keep the shoulders level and moving around your inside leg, and keep the haunches on the turn as well - all of this requires the horse to accept the seat and leg, to move up into the bridle, accept the rein and balance cues, link them to the seat and leg aids, and complete a very sharp turn at a high speed, then listen to the rider to set up for the next jump. 
When you get into things such as the complexities of a course, for example, you have to remember that the horse hasn't rehearsed the course; the contact of a bit becomes fairly crucial. While the seat and legs act as the major components, the hands act as another aid, they ask for very soft flexion this way or that, and the rider/horse team work together into the bridle to excecute movements that the triangle (seat/leg/hand) complete.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

trailhorserider said:


> Why would a trainer need a wire bit, though? That's my whole point. If a horse spooks, especially in an arena, it is in such a controlled enviroment that you should not need a wire to get him stopped. You should be able to circle, or get him flexing, or disengage the hindquarter... or something. No wires needed. ​
> 
> I guess all I am saying is that I could see a trainer (western) riding in an arena using a twisted wire bit to soften a horse. Maybe I am incorrect in thinking there is EVER a need for a twisted wire bit. I certainly would never use one myself. But I could see using it in a controlled area where spooks would not be an issue.​
> The reason I mention spooking and making contact in an emergency, is that I trail ride. That's all I do- I don't even have access to an arena (although it would be nice). So I guess my perspective is coming from my own experiences. I want to be able to ride the horse in open country with elk popping out of the trees and still be able to make contact and regain control in an emergency.​
> ...


Contact IS tied in with collection; very much so. The horse is ridden seat and leg INTO hand. Collection is the horse shifting its weight onto the hindquarter, lightening up the forehand, keeping the same tempo, but shortening its stride; the horse's entire frame seems to shorten up as well, like a coiled spring. The reins don't hold a horse into collection, more like they are a piece of the puzzle.

You've said that the bit is used to soften a horse - how? 
A bit, used that way, will get a horse to drop behind the bit and evade, which to the untrained eye/hand feels like the horse is "softening," but in fact he is just completely evading contact by dropping behind the bit, behind the vertical. To soften a horse, you have to have him accept varying degrees of contact, from solid contact to "hold yourself in your own frame without my support" contact - English riders will often test their horses' self-carriage by letting the reins go loose for a moment or two; the horse should not change even when the contact is changed. Western horses are expected to hold themselves in a frame, but I won't touch the subject of collection in that world. 
A horse who is hard-mouthed hasn't been taught to accept contact properly, and teaching him to evade the bit by using pain to "soften" his mouth and drop behind the bit is very hard to fix.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Trailhorserider -

I guess I am quite different to most on here in terms of discipline. I predominantly trail ride, because like you, I don't have access to an arena. I also compete regularly in both english type disciplines and western type disciplines, including cow working in the context of campdrafting. So I bring a bit from each world which is where my opinions come from.

All of my horses can ride well on a loose rein and neck rein. Most of my time on the trails is spent on a loose rein - hence most of their work is on a loose rein.

When I compete or when I am doing some training out on the trails, I pick my reins up and ask my horses to travel in more of a frame. 

Let me explain collection a little differently to JDI, I think you might relate a bit better. Basically, as you felt when your horses want to go, energy is created. When you are trying for collection it is created with your leg and seat. That energy cycles up through the back and to the head - The bit's purpose in collection is to contain that energy and send it circling back through the horse. So you are not holding the head in, but containing the energy, not letting it rush out the front. 

I definitely agree on the spooking thing. That is the main reason why I don't agree with textured bits. Even the most well trained horse can spook, and if you have a need to pick up on a rein strongly, I want something there that won't rip up my horses mouth. That is the exact reason I also think a snaffle is most suited for gameing - There is inevitably a point where you need to pick up a rein, and I would rather have a bit that is designed to communicate that contact directly and clearly.

I also agree with your speak softly and carry a big stick analogy - However I don't often have to use my 'stick'. I work on getting my horse soft to the bit as in soft laterally - Bendy. I also work on getting control of every part of my horses body, as JDI mentioned. So if something does go pear shaped, generally I can regain control by manipulating the horses body and therefore re-directing that energy. But if that doesn't work - Then I can and have used my strength to contain the situation. My bit of choice is a thin snaffle - I think they are comfier for my horse to carry, and if worst comes to worst, I do have a bit of bite.


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## azhorseluvr1222 (Dec 4, 2010)

I have to say I love the discussion about bits, I am new to horse ownership and it has helped me understand English and Western riding and the different types of bits used and when they should be used. So I know its a controversial thing and seeing as I have no strong opinions one way or the other I get a very clear picture of the whole thing. I have been riding my horse in a Tom Thumb and I know thats not a popular one but I didn't know any different, it was how I was first taught to ride. I was definately stressed the point of loose reins and quiet soft hands from before even getting on the horse. But after going on here and reading all the bit discussions and info I have decided that I need to try something different especially because we think my horse was trained in english or at least started that way and so riding him western and in this bit you can see he is a bit confused and the pressure from my particular bit is probably too much ( I thought he was just high strung)especially if I do make contact and I have to admit because of my lack of knowledge I make that contact too much. So I just ordered the french link eggbut snaffle yesterday ( I couldn't find it with a Dee ring) and a loose ring french link to see which will work and we will start there. Sorry this post was so long but I just wanted to express my thanks and how much I am learning on the site about every aspect of horse ownership


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Great post as always, WS. Az, I hope this thread has been helpful to you! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azhorseluvr1222 (Dec 4, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> Great post as always, WS. Az, I hope this thread has been helpful to you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Oh it has and I have been reading every other thread on bits too as well as what each bit looks like and what they are for. It has been very informative.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

One thing i would like people to think about is if people dont know what even the "bad" or why they are "bad" why would they not try to use them? I dont see why its bad to say what these bits do because if we dont i think more people would use them uneducatedly.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

i tired this today. i only have ever ridden in a King D plain snaffle. But my guy tends to grab the bit and is occasionally heavy on my hands. 
So with this, he was super light, super responsive, VERY polite, and frames up without a discussion. I plan to ride him in the D when we're just hacking around. But for the bigger jumping days we'll use this.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

: D Thats my favorite bit ever created!!!! My horse in it, gets light, listens, i feel like i can start to have more control over her out jumping or cross country because she gets so crazy out there you can use all your seat to slow her down but you need the extra kick of the waterford bubble bit. Its great from keeping your horse of your hands to!!! Love it : ) <3


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Bandera - There is no need to explain how these bits work. The mouthpiece doesn't change the action of the bit. A twisted wire loose ring snaffle will work the exact same way as a smooth one - Except the twisted wire can cause more pain. 

Just about every textured mouthpiece bit has a smooth counterpart and they work exactly the same.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

okay so why cant we say its harsher? i dont get why everyone got mad at this person for posting this and talking about what these bits do???? i think those bits do need to be explained so people know their severity though.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

-sigh-

They _are_ explained, in the threads mentioned in the OP. If someone doesn't like those explanations, they should get off their bum and do some research themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Christina,
Hope you like those new bits. I just LOVE trying new bits!

I have something to say about contact and the difference between E and W ridden horses. I am glad that one of you guys admitted that the rein contact was an important and essential part of creating collection in a horse. One of you said you ride the horse from back to front and then went on to say that the front needs the reins to be ridden TO. YES! I agree. People talk endlessly about riding back to front, but if there is no containment in front (via a rein) the energy fall out the front, no matter how much you push.
But the rein isn't meant to physically contain the energy by viritue of its own strength. It is meant to train the horse to contain his own energy and by its position, defined by the elbow and the seat of the rider, it tells the horse the boundary of containment. No way could you contain the energy just by the strenght of the rein UNLESS you use a terribly painful bit. But, that would cause the horse to be fearful of coming to the containment boundary and would build in a "backward" flow of energy.

English horses are given the boundary on a softer bit and are are asked to meet that place. Due to hunting, the horse in general is ridden in a much more forward frame and that must be allowed to suddenly expand from vertically oriented energy to forward energy (i.e. going over a ditch or a fence). So, the rider wants control but wants to be flexible and must be able to feel the horse's mouth all the time in order to very closely follow it's energy as it runs across country.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The western riding tradition comes more from something distantly related to bull fighting and even knights jousting. The rider wants a horse that is ready to start, stop, spin at a moments notice. The bits used for this were very harsh originally and the horse learned very quickly to stay OFF the bit and in order to do that he would need to stay back on his haunches. Instead of the rider in the English hunt following the horse, the Western horse must very astutely follow the rider and be sharp about it or he would get a painful mouth. Lightness results from pain. But, once respect for the bit is taught, it is rarely if ever used to inflict pain, just a mear suggestion of its possiblity which is transferred through a feeling down a draping rein. The horse is on contact, but it is so light, that it is very hard for unskilled riders to find the place between causing pain and not having any connection at all.

Ultimately, many modern W riders try to have the horse trained to be as similarly light on the contact but not using a spade bit or other more intense bits, just by training with pressure and release.

But what I started out to say and it's so late I am totally rambling so just roll your eyes at me and go to another post of you like,

The rein/bit is meant to connect to the hind end. IF your rein doesn't connect to your horse's hind legs then the training isn't there.

You all can now tear this apart.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> If a twisted wire bit was going to go on a horse who neck reins perfectly and doesn't need you to touch the reins, then why would you use a twisted wire in the first place, if the mouthpiece is nhot being used? Would you not choose something more comfortable for the horse to carry? You can get smooth bits just as thin as a twisted wire if that is what you are after.
> 
> So it is *common sense* that anyone who picks up a twisted wire to use is going to, at some point, have contact on it. A well trained, responsive neck reined horse wouldn't need it.


 Completely agree, I was just about to post this myself!

If the horse is so trained and the rider is so experienced, why is there the need for a less mild bit?

I completely understand a retraining situation. For example, you all know how Molly was a reliable do-anything-with well-trained mare, sold to someone who ruined her by kicking her when she misbehaved, Molly got skittish, bolted without thinking at the touch of a leg, when trainer retrained her she used a pelham. For about three days to establish a sense of control. You can't work with a bolter in a mild bit, you need something with more control for a little while first. THEN you move back down to a simple jointed snaffle, or whatever was used before. I would never advocate the use of something like a mule or bike chain bit for temporary retraining control, though. You use something with more pressure. Not more hurt, more pressure.

Forgive me if this is wrong, but I think there's a definite difference between pain bits and pressure bits. A pressure bit just increases the pressure felt, it doesn't relocate it or pinch. It's just "stronger". A "pain" bit is a bit, IMO, that concentrates and creates a degree of pain that has nothing to do with communication rather than "slow down or be pinched".

Just how I see it.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

My bad, double post. *ignore*


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

wow. that was a very interesting read! thanks Tiny.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

Sunny said:


> -sigh-
> 
> They _are_ explained, in the threads mentioned in the OP. If someone doesn't like those explanations, they should get off their bum and do some research themselves.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



sorry that was poorly worded on my part. I mean i dont get why is seemed like people didnt want her to talk about it??? Maybe im reading that discussion wrong???? : /


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Equiniphile- I understand the point of your post, but strongly disagree that you NEED anything more than a simple snaffle on a bolter. I like pelham bits, don't get me wrong, but you don't need it to retrain a bolter in my opinion. 
Bandera - we are all very open to discussing bits, as long as there is forward conversation. Saying there is a need for twisted wire bits to create a soft horse and to create collection, however, is a stretch and an improper use of these bits. Very few people know how to properly use a bit listed in the OP... They tend to use them like the OP described - to "soften" or "collect" - but they're achieving improper softening in the form of evasion, and they may be getting a tucked nose and slower gait/ not tracking up, not collection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> but they're achieving improper softening in the form of evasion, and they may be getting a tucked nose and slower gait/ not tracking up, not collection


okay so i'm really new to this whole bit thing. This is my first horse and he came to me from his orig owner in the plain snaffle. And of course, i rode him in that from september until yesterday when i gave that Waterford a try. How can i tell if his being polite and responsive is simply because of evasion, or because i am using the bit properly and he is accepting?? He's nearly 1300 pounds and when he lays on my hands in the snaffle i can hardly focus on my job as a rider. But with that other bit, he stays off my hands!
All this new info is very exciting! I haven't ever really considered bits until i had read this thread. I'm kinda' stuck in a position that, if my trainer doesn't tell me to change it/fix it, then i tend to leave it how it is!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Equiniphile- I understand the point of your post, but strongly disagree that you NEED anything more than a simple snaffle on a bolter. I like pelham bits, don't get me wrong, but you don't need it to retrain a bolter in my opinion.


 My trainer said she was pretty bad at first, so she used the Pelham for the first couple of rides to establish a sense of control. After that she went to a simple snaffle, which is what I'm using now with her. She just completely ignored the bit and needed that extra force at first so the horse sensed control. After she worked on reintroducing leg aids the first few days, she was so much better, and she's, as I said, in a simple snaffle now.


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## Bandera (Jul 31, 2010)

Oh okay thanks!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Oxer said:


> okay so i'm really new to this whole bit thing. This is my first horse and he came to me from his orig owner in the plain snaffle. And of course, i rode him in that from september until yesterday when i gave that Waterford a try. How can i tell if his being polite and responsive is simply because of evasion, or because i am using the bit properly and he is accepting?? He's nearly 1300 pounds and when he lays on my hands in the snaffle i can hardly focus on my job as a rider. But with that other bit, he stays off my hands!
> All this new info is very exciting! I haven't ever really considered bits until i had read this thread. I'm kinda' stuck in a position that, if my trainer doesn't tell me to change it/fix it, then i tend to leave it how it is!


I want to clarify one thing first: Most people think that in order for a horse to be light on the bridle, they must be light on your hands - this is not really true. You want a connection with your hands; you want to be able to feel the horse, and for them to be seeking contact, you want to feel a couple of pounds of pressure in each hand. Now, the trick is to find where they're seeking contact and not leaning on your hands; both come from proper training, _not a bit!_ 
When you say that you switched bits and he stays off your hands now, I'm inclined to think that perhaps he's evading the bit rather than rounding up, as a bit won't encourage rounding, but it can encourage a horse to feel like they're not leaning as they've started to evade the bit. 
This is where, no matter the discipline, Dressage plays a role. My passion is jumping; my training is dressage. 
I cannot tell you, without seeing you and your horse, whether or not he's evading. My educated guess is that he might be evading by simply tucking his nose; you don't want that - you want your horse to work back to front and contain that energy with your reins and hands. This is where a talented dressage coach comes in... they will help you attain that proper frame


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

equiniphile said:


> My trainer said she was pretty bad at first, so she used the Pelham for the first couple of rides to establish a sense of control. After that she went to a simple snaffle, which is what I'm using now with her. She just completely ignored the bit and needed that extra force at first so the horse sensed control. After she worked on reintroducing leg aids the first few days, she was so much better, and she's, as I said, in a simple snaffle now.


Adding to the debate... bit=/= control. Personally, what I would have done was started pretty much from square one, on the ground, then progressed up into the saddle, with my main emphasis on shoulder and hip control. You can control the head, sure, but if the horse pushes a shoulder out, you're toast. 
I like pelhams just fine, they are very useful bits, but they are not for headset nor control in the sense of stopping power; they add finesse to a certain level with the ability to pick up the curb rein for that momentary "need you to really pay attention here" cue. Sure, the curb adds stopping power, but that stopping power is controlling with pain; if you're relying on a bit to stop a bolter, that's the bottom line. In that instance, the curb action on the pelham is being used for the curb chain action only, not finesse for a movement.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> You want a connection with your hands; you want to be able to feel the horse, and for them to be seeking contact, you want to feel a couple of pounds of pressure in each hand. Now, the trick is to find where they're seeking contact and not leaning on your hands; both come from proper training, _not a bit!_


i have learned a lot from this particular horse with regards to this very statement. My trainer told me: "don't expect him to just carry you around and tote you over the fences. You have to actually ride."
He has tossed me a number of times because i've dropped him. pushing him up into the bit and having him laying on my hands are two different things that i am trying to get the feel for. 

a good trainer should be able to see the difference, correct?!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Good for you, Oxer, sounds like you're well on your way 
Yes, a good trainer will be able to tell the difference.


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