# Head shaking and getting angry when lunging in bridle



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the vet may have missed something in her mouth, such as a ridge on the side. We've had horses floated by one vet, then have a true DENTAL vet come out and find several points or ridges, or developing abcesses that the other vet missed.


can you palpate all along her jaw, where the flesh covers the teeth, and have not pain reaction? she has not bad odor from her mouth, right? she is eating normally?


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> the vet may have missed something in her mouth, such as a ridge on the side. We've had horses floated by one vet, then have a true DENTAL vet come out and find several points or ridges, or developing abcesses that the other vet missed.
> 
> 
> can you palpate all along her jaw, where the flesh covers the teeth, and have not pain reaction? she has not bad odor from her mouth, right? she is eating normally?


No odor, and she eats for two horses. I'll try palpating, see how that goes.

I was thinking the same thing, that the vet missed it. Unfortunately, we have no dental vets around here. And vets we do have aren't exactly equine vets - not that many horses in the country. Urgh.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

What is your lunging set up? How is your line attached and tack secured?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Either the vet missed something, or the bit is bothering her or her bridle is bothering, but something wrong. When you eliminate the bit and the bridle, the behaviour stops so you know where to start.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

ApuetsoT said:


> What is your lunging set up? How is your line attached and tack secured?



I attach the line to the inside hoop of the bit. Reins are left resting on top of her neck and the slack is twisted around each other under her head and lifted closer to the head by looping the throat latch through them. (I'm not how easy this is to picture). That's how my instructor thought me. 

You are right, I'll remove the non-essential parts of the bridle (reins, nose strap, brow band) one by one and see if it makes a difference.

It could be something stupid like the weight of the line bearing down and making, for example, the browband uncomfortable.

Thank you.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

waresbear said:


> Either the vet missed something, or the bit is bothering her or her bridle is bothering, but something wrong. When you eliminate the bit and the bridle, the behaviour stops so you know where to start.



I'm going to call a different vet, just in case and start removing pieces of tack.
The strange thing is, when I correct her she will gradually settle down. And she doesn't always do it, I'd say aprox. 30% of the time. Does that suggest something to you?

Thank you.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Attaching to the inside bit ring is incorrect and likely at least part of the problem. If you lunge with a bridle run through that ring over the poll and snap to the OUTSIDE bit ring. What you're doing now is pulling the bridle out of whack. I'm guessing there is some issue and the way you're attaching is aggravating it. It does sound like teeth to me as well but could be a training issue or another physical issue.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Attaching to the inside bit ring is incorrect and likely at least part of the problem. If you lunge with a bridle run through that ring over the poll and snap to the OUTSIDE bit ring. What you're doing now is pulling the bridle out of whack. I'm guessing there is some issue and the way you're attaching is aggravating it. It does sound like teeth to me as well but could be a training issue or another physical issue.


I see. This is how I was thought and how everyone around here does it. I'll change it and see if it helps. 

I doesn't feel like a training issue because she is great with halter on as well as free-lunging in a round pen. But I suppose you never know. 

By the way, I haven't tried lunging with a halter but when saddled. Maybe it's not her head at all. I'll give it a try.

Thank you.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^I've never heard of doing that as a normal thing I've always understood it to be incorrect, I'm surprised it's so common in your area. Think about it, what happens when the inevitable pressure is put on the ring? Regardless, do try it the way I described to see if there is a difference. You can also buy a converter that clips to both rings and hangs below to snap on to (sort of how the bottom part of a halter is if that makes sense). Worth fiddling around with different attachments.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Just a quick additional question: how do I go about eliminating tack? Do I start with my standard setup, see if she's misbehaving and then remove something? She doesn't always do it. Or do I start with a new setup and leave it like that until I see the results over a couple of days?


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> ^I've never heard of doing that as a normal thing I've always understood it to be incorrect, I'm surprised it's so common in your area. Think about it, what happens when the inevitable pressure is put on the ring? Regardless, do try it the way I described to see if there is a difference. You can also buy a converter that clips to both rings and hangs below to snap on to (sort of how the bottom part of a halter is if that makes sense). Worth fiddling around with different attachments.


Eh, we aren't exactly bursting with equine experts around here :/ Not a very horsey country, I'm afraid (Just to illustrate, there isn't a single tack shop in the entire country). That's why I keep pestering you fine people 

I have that converter, my instructor told me to remove it - she thinks the pressure should be solely on the inside ring of the bit. I'll recommission it, see if it helps.

Thank you.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Oh, jeez, I just hope it's not the saddle :/

I bought a new one a few months ago, because the old one stopped fitting. However, the trouble started before that. It isn't about the money, I just don't have access to a wide variety.

Before you guys get on my case about a saddle fitter - no such thing around here. I had to go look at YouTube and try and figure it out myself. She seems happy with the new one and the rub marks she had have disappeared.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

lunging off of the inside ring of a snaffle, western, is standard, however Not that twisting reins, putting them through the throat latch.
A picture would be helpful, but since she is fine riding, I suspect it is your method that bothers her, and you might even be giving her conflicting signals
If you ar lunging off of the inside ring of the snaffle, you need two things, a horse that has learned not to pull, and the reins attached so that if the horse is giving correctly, there is clear release. You check the reins back, as much as th ehorse has learned to give, up tot he point fact is on the vertical, 
I have never heard of that attachment , far as reins, lunging off the inside ring of the snaffle


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Smilie said:


> lunging off of the inside ring of a snaffle, western, is standard, however Not that twisting reins, putting them through the throat latch.
> A picture would be helpful, but since she is fine riding, I suspect it is your method that bothers her, and you might even be giving her conflicting signals
> If you ar lunging off of the inside ring of the snaffle, you need two things, a horse that has learned not to pull, and the reins attached so that if the horse is giving correctly, there is clear release. You check the reins back, as much as th ehorse has learned to give, up tot he point fact is on the vertical,
> I have never heard of that attachment , far as reins, lunging off the inside ring of the snaffle


There is no pulling at all, she does this in a round pan, on a slack line. 

I would have thought it's me for sure, but she does it with my instructor as well, and she doesn't always do it (aprox. 30% of the time). 

The reins aren't tight at all, just gathered up out of the way, with no pressure on the bit. Like the black set of reins in this photo:


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Put the line over the poll as Yogi said. It's the correct way of doing it. Teaches them more. I'll assume you have a metal clip on your line, as most do. That can easily irritate a sensitive mouthed horse has the metal bounces and clatters, even more so if you are inconstant with the contact(Yes, you still maintain contact when lunging). Putting it over the poll shifts the pressure onto the outside rein, closer reflecting how it is when you ride. There is less bouncing and jostling too.

You say she speeds up when you take contact when riding, so I'm going to bet she doesn't know what to do with it and is reacting to that. Hence why she doesn't do it with a halter on, or without a line attached..


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Smilie said:


> lunging off of the inside ring of a snaffle, western, is standard, however Not that twisting reins, putting them through the throat latch.
> A picture would be helpful, but since she is fine riding, I suspect it is your method that bothers her, and you might even be giving her conflicting signals
> If you ar lunging off of the inside ring of the snaffle, you need two things, a horse that has learned not to pull, and the reins attached so that if the horse is giving correctly, there is clear release. You check the reins back, as much as th ehorse has learned to give, up tot he point fact is on the vertical,
> I have never heard of that attachment , far as reins, lunging off the inside ring of the snaffle


Hm, I don't do anything fancy on the lunge. My goal is to get her to move at the pace and gait of my choosing and I don't do anything with her head (no side reins, no getting on the bit) purely because I don't know how to do it and no one around here knows either. I watched videos but I really don't think that is something one can learn on the internet so I don't mess wth it.

She was doing great until this started happening.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Twisting the reins through the throatlatch is correct.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

ApuetsoT said:


> Put the line over the poll as Yogi said. It's the correct way of doing it. Teaches them more. I'll assume you have a metal clip on your line, as most do. That can easily irritate a sensitive mouthed horse has the metal bounces and clatters, even more so if you are inconstant with the contact(Yes, you still maintain contact when lunging). Putting it over the poll shifts the pressure onto the outside rein, closer reflecting how it is when you ride. There is less bouncing and jostling too.
> 
> You say she speeds up when you take contact when riding, so I'm going to bet she doesn't know what to do with it and is reacting to that. Hence why she doesn't do it with a halter on, or without a line attached..


I'll definitely try it. It sounds logical. 

I don't keep any contact when she is in the round pen (to try to eliminate this issue) but she does have a metal clip so that could be bothering her.

Thank you.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Ok, I'm just going to sum it all up, in order in which I'm going to try it:

- palpate the jaw (get a different vet out as soon as I can find one who knows anything about horses and is willing to come out)
- cross the line over to the outside ring
- remove the saddle, keep her in the bridle (I hope this one DOESN'T help)
- keep the saddle, put her in a halter
- remove parts of the bridle one by one
- try a different bit (although this is the mildest one out there, I have no idea where to start)
- try free-lunging with the bridle in the round pen (minus the reins - I'm a little bit hesitant to do this in case she catches on something)


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

The interference from a metal clip is pretty much eliminated by going over the poll. It's really hard to find lines that don't have metal clips. I ended up making one myself after my snap broke. I love it. But that's neither here nor there. It's simply nice to have.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

One thing I forgot to mention is that she stops it as soon as corrected and if I push her to go faster and correct her very firmly she will quit it all together for that session. But I don't want to stop her from showing her discomfort, I want to know if something is hurting her. When I bought her she was very robotic. Only now is she timidly speaking up a little bit so I want to listen. I don't allow silly business, but this seems different.

And she only does it when trotting, canter and walk are fine.

Thank you all for your time and helping me think this through.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Yogi that it is probably the way that you have the line attached to the bit. 

Unless the horse is terribly strong and in the habit of tanking off when lunged _I never lunge off the bit and certainly never from the one side._

When the vet did her teeth did they use a gag to hold the mouth open?


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I agree with Yogi that it is probably the way that you have the line attached to the bit.
> 
> Unless the horse is terribly strong and in the habit of tanking off when lunged _I never lunge off the bit and certainly never from the one side._
> 
> When the vet did her teeth did they use a gag to hold the mouth open?


I wouldn't mind lunging in a halter at all, but I would like to know if it's pain related and fix the pain.

The vet used some sort of a speculum, a metal piece to hold her mouth open. I'm assuming it's a gag.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Was it like this? 

http://www.equinedentalservices.org/a/img/what-to-expect/horse-mouth-inspection.jpg

I think it could well be from discomfort because the line hangs onto one side of the mouth. 

A lunging caveson is the best thing to lunge them with.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> Was it like this?
> 
> http://www.equinedentalservices.org/a/img/what-to-expect/horse-mouth-inspection.jpg
> 
> ...


No, it was a much smaller instrument that fit completely into her mouth.

I'll add the caveson to my list, thank you.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Cavassons are gold standard. Make sure you get a good one. There are lots that are cheap and have no support and you know how to fit them. I bought one one many years ago, tried it on and proclaimed it was too small. Gave it to my current trainer, it was not too small, I just didn't know how it should fit. 

I like the ones with reinforced nosebands and three swivel rings.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Horsef said:


> No, it was a much smaller instrument that fit completely into her mouth.
> 
> I'll add the caveson to my list, thank you.


In my never humble opinion, unless a gag like this is used then the back molars cannot be reached. The ones that just fit onto the first molars do not open the mouth wide enough.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This video shows two correct methods for how to attach a lunge line to a bit. It also shows how to secure the reins.
I personally don't like lungeing off a bit but on occasions that I might have too I prefer to use the 'rein over poll' method.
You should never lunge just off one ring of the bit even if the horse is well behaved and not going to lean on your hand. The weight of the lunge line and clip is enough to upset things
If the horse is good when lunged free then its says to me that the problem is most likely associated with the way your attaching the rein
You can use a lunge cavesson or a good fitting leather halter/headcollar or if you don't want to load all of that extra stuff on his head then buy a Micklem multi purpose bridle


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> In my never humble opinion, unless a gag like this is used then the back molars cannot be reached. The ones that just fit onto the first molars do not open the mouth wide enough.


I'll make sure to mention that to the vet. He did have the bigger one with him, no idea why he didn't use it.

Thank you, it's amazing what one can learn on the internet


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Horsef said:


> Eh, we aren't exactly bursting with equine experts around here :/ Not a very horsey country, I'm afraid (Just to illustrate, there isn't a single tack shop in the entire country). That's why I keep pestering you fine people
> 
> I have that converter, my instructor told me to remove it - she thinks the pressure should be solely on the inside ring of the bit. I'll recommission it, see if it helps.
> 
> Thank you.


I'm curious as to the logic of her wanting it that way? But try running it over her poll first. I've honestly never even used a converter lol. It will give you more control if she's acting up too so you will be able to have a lighter touch which may help.

You can take pictures of the saddle and post on here but it sounded like you had narrowed it down to being something bridle related?

If she's misbehaving due to tack causing problems the results will be pretty immediate.
@Smilie OP said she's fussy under saddle as well. And for knowledge sake that is how you tie up the reins in English tack, they often don't reach back to the saddle so unless they do and you specifically want them back to the saddle (uncommon as you'll often just use side reins then) you loop them up as the OP described, beats taking them off every time! It's just to keep them out of the way no purpose training wise they are not being used.

Two thoughts- any way to take a video? Also, I'm assuming she's the same in either direction?

Dentist said she was good... but maybe she has wolf teeth? How old is she?

Can you find a picture of the bit you use?

@ApuestoT that's a very interesting point about the metal clip. I've never really thought about it but I've never attached directly to the bit either lol


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm curious as to the logic of her wanting it that way?
> 
> Two thoughts- any way to take a video? Also, I'm assuming she's the same in either direction?
> 
> ...


I think she wants it that way simply because everyone around here does it like that. Lunging is thought of as an excersise to expand energy before riding - that's it.

She is the same in either direction and she only does it in trott.

I tried taking a video last night, started off with my usual setup (so that I can start changing things when she misbehaves) - and she was as good as gold :/
That's horses for you.

She is fourteen. I'll ask the next vet to double check for wolf teeth.

Here is the bit I use, made of very light metal:


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## Decalcomania (May 1, 2017)

Have you thought about not putting in a bridle? Also I would have a dentist check her out rather then the vet. I have heard of mutliple stories where the vet said the teeth were fine and then later the donkey (yeah they were donkeys but same goes for horses) died and it was because it couldn't eat well anymore. Now this is Belgium situation so maybe in your country the vets do get a better training around teeth but it's still worth checking it out. If the teeth are fine and your horse still eats and stuff I would just try to start riding without a bridle. It'll make things a lot more comfortable for your horse. Good luck with it and hopefully it will be resolved soon.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

You might try using a lunging strap instead of hooking directly to the bridle. My horses hated having the lunge line hooked directly to their mouths and go very nicely with this.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Decalcomania said:


> Have you thought about not putting in a bridle? Also I would have a dentist check her out rather then the vet. I have heard of mutliple stories where the vet said the teeth were fine and then later the donkey (yeah they were donkeys but same goes for horses) died and it was because it couldn't eat well anymore. Now this is Belgium situation so maybe in your country the vets do get a better training around teeth but it's still worth checking it out. If the teeth are fine and your horse still eats and stuff I would just try to start riding without a bridle. It'll make things a lot more comfortable for your horse. Good luck with it and hopefully it will be resolved soon.


She goes mostly fine under saddle with a bridle (well, as fine as her education allows). I did try a bitless halter for a while. She was fine with it in the beginning (about a week) but once she figured out I can't do much to stop her if she doesn't want to stop, she started running through my hands when she felt like it. I didn't really want to encourage any misbehavior so I went back to the bit. I might go back to it, just to see how it goes now.

I live in a very non-horsey country, so unfortunately we don't have any equine dentists. Even equine vets are mostly large cattle vets willing to work with horses :/ However, she is eating more than enough (needs to go on a diet, actually). It could be a wolf tooth which might not interfere with eating but I felt her bars (as suggested above), nothing unusual there.

Thank you


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Chasin Ponies said:


> You might try using a lunging strap instead of hooking directly to the bridle. My horses hated having the lunge line hooked directly to their mouths and go very nicely with this.


I've got one and I'll try it as soon as she starts up again, along with everything else suggested in the thread. I lunged her twice since I started this thread, she was as good as gold. I'm not sure she's not reading the forum and playing with me


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## Decalcomania (May 1, 2017)

Horsef said:


> She goes mostly fine under saddle with a bridle (well, as fine as her education allows). I did try a bitless halter for a while. She was fine with it in the beginning (about a week) but once she figured out I can't do much to stop her if she doesn't want to stop, she started running through my hands when she felt like it. I didn't really want to encourage any misbehavior so I went back to the bit. I might go back to it, just to see how it goes now.
> 
> I live in a very non-horsey country, so unfortunately we don't have any equine dentists. Even equine vets are mostly large cattle vets willing to work with horses :/ However, she is eating more than enough (needs to go on a diet, actually). It could be a wolf tooth which might not interfere with eating but I felt her bars (as suggested above), nothing unusual there.
> 
> Thank you


Can't you stop her by pulling her on a small circle? Usually they stop then. And if you keep that up then she'll learn that just running off won't work. It sounds like she is testing you there so yeah if you can't stop her it can become dangerous. 

It's too bad that there isn't anyone around with knowledge on horse teeth. Not eating is not really a good indicator of a problem with the teeth because most horses (especially young horses) just keep on eating fine. It is more of a problem for older horses because bad teeth prevent the horse from chewing it's food enough and then it can't get enough nutrients and it is bad for their bowels. I hope you'll figure out why she is behaving the way she is and that you can help her with whatever is making her behave this way. Good luck.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Decalcomania said:


> Can't you stop her by pulling her on a small circle? Usually they stop then. And if you keep that up then she'll learn that just running off won't work. It sounds like she is testing you there so yeah if you can't stop her it can become dangerous.
> 
> It's too bad that there isn't anyone around with knowledge on horse teeth. Not eating is not really a good indicator of a problem with the teeth because most horses (especially young horses) just keep on eating fine. It is more of a problem for older horses because bad teeth prevent the horse from chewing it's food enough and then it can't get enough nutrients and it is bad for their bowels. I hope you'll figure out why she is behaving the way she is and that you can help her with whatever is making her behave this way. Good luck.


Yes, I can stop her like that. She was doing so well with her training using a bit that I selfishly wanted to continue the good streak  I'll definitely give bitless another try.

Thank you for your time


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

ApuetsoT said:


> Twisting the reins through the throatlatch is correct.


Over the poll, twisting reins through the throatlatch is an English method, and you don't see it western.\Nether is correct or wrong, just different
perhaps, because \we' use split reins??
Since she is fine riding, then it has to be your lunging technique, and not a mouth issue.
Why do you lunge her? She might simply be bored, and I see no reason to lunge abroke horse every time you ride that horse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm curious as to the logic of her wanting it that way? But try running it over her poll first. I've honestly never even used a converter lol. It will give you more control if she's acting up too so you will be able to have a lighter touch which may help.
> 
> You can take pictures of the saddle and post on here but it sounded like you had narrowed it down to being something bridle related?
> 
> ...


Yes, I now see she is being ridden English, and have seen hroses lunged that way, English.
Ialso just read that she is also fussy under saddle, and is not a horse just being started but one that is 14 years old.
Therefore, going by that, she should know how to give to abit, and if not, teach her, while being lunged, same as green horse
In other words, if she has no idea about giving, then bit her up slowly over a few weeks, and leave ahalter on under the bridle to lunge off of.
If she KNOWS how to give, then don't lung her with loose reins, but check her back, so she carries her head as you would expect when being ridden.
It is senseless to let a horse toss her head, have an inconstant topline when lunged, do their own thing, then expect them to ride correctly .
In other words, make her go lunged, as you expect her to go ridden, and not just to wear off excess energy. 
If her mouth issues have been eliminated, then you don't have abit problem, but a training problem, and the fact that she runs through bittless, is a good indication. The head tossing, other factors being eliminated, is a habit hroses develop , showing bit resistance,
I think your instructor is out in left field, if she does not know horse to teach this horse to give to abit, uses lunging just to wear off excess energy, or looks for a bit versus t bittless solution, when I am quite confident,you have training issue, reading everything you have posted
You can achieve the same goal, riding, but then you really need feel and timing, knowing when to hold, while driving with legs, and when to release
I suspect this horse is stiff in her whole body, and would really benefit with someone who knows how to get a horse soft in his entire body, working with her. JMO


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Why not forget about lunging her with abit for now-period, and see as to how much respect you have, and a mouth issue does not even muddy the waters.
If you can't lunge ahorse, off a halter, so that horse keeps slaCK IN THE LUNGE LINE, NEVER PULLS, then you have ahole in basic training.
Any horse that offers to pull on me, being lunged, gets lunged with a chain run under the chin, changing hook up with direction.
You need an instructor that can help you with the basic holes in training that this horse has, and no special equipment will do that. You can go from bit to bittless, cavasson to halter to bridle and still be spinning your wheels


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Why not forget about lunging her with abit for now-period, and see as to how much respect you have, and a mouth issue does not even muddy the waters.
> If you can't lunge ahorse, off a halter, so that horse keeps slaCK IN THE LUNGE LINE, NEVER PULLS, then you have ahole in basic training.
> Any horse that offers to pull on me, being lunged, gets lunged with a chain run under the chin, changing hook up with direction.
> You need an instructor that can help you with the basic holes in training that this horse has, and no special equipment will do that. You can go from bit to bittless, cavasson to halter to bridle and still be spinning your wheels


She lunges perfectly in a halter, as well free-lunging in a round pen. Also, even in a bridle she quits the nonsense when corrected. The reason I started the thread was because I want to figure out IF there is a pain or tack issue.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm just curious for a video... maybe the trick is to video tape her every time and then she will never do it again? lol


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm just curious for a video... maybe the trick is to video tape her every time and then she will never do it again? lol


Quite. I had my phone ready both yesterday and today. I could have had two videos of a perfectly behaved horse on a lunge line :/ I think she's a mind reader.


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