# Cream gene horses...



## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay, so this question just popped into my mind and has got me really wanting to know the answer to.

We all know all colours originate from Black and Brown. We also know that you need 2 cream genes to get a cremello, or 1 cream gene to get a palomino, or another colour like that... Am I right? 

Well... so my question is, how did the first cremello get produced? How did the first palomino, or any other horse with a cream gene. True Black and brown horses don't have a cream gene, so how did the cream gene come to be?

If anyone can answer this, please answer it!


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Just like anything. It would be a mutation.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

And a small correction - horses come in base color of black or red (chestnut). Brown is a black-based horse with a modifier acting upon it.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

So... there would be a chance of a horse with no cream gene, producing a cream gene foal? Like 2 black horses producing a palomino?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

:lol: Base colors are red and black not black and brown. Every color we have in horses is a modification of either the black base or the red base. 

Simple answer? A mutation of the gene somewhere a long the line in breeding. Just like HYPP is a mutation of a gene that we happen to be able to trace back to where that mutation occurred. there is no way to trace where the various coat variations started.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay... but when you said along the line in breeding... I am talking about when horses first came to be (a very long time ago) and the very first cream gene horse? Where did the cream gene come from? did it just pop up from nowhere.

I know this question might sound stupid, but I am just curious.


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

Horse Testing - Equine Genetic Testing
Hopefully this will help you out a bit with colors


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It's a mutation. Some where along the line a gene mutated causing the "cream gene"

so yes essentially it did "pop up out of nowhere"

No, two non cream parents cannot produce a cream carrying foal.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

Okay, thank you.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> No, two non cream parents cannot produce a cream carrying foal.


While we may never see it, theoretically it could happen. Just like it did the first time. If the mutation where to happen again. Since we have not seen it shows that it was not a simple mutation but probable a more complex one that required a very specific set of things to happen and the chances of that happening again would be next to nill.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I imagine it would be very possible in the future to see new mutations. Does anyone have a timeline on how long champagne and pearl and cream have been around? It seems unlikely they all appeared at once, as is likely evidenced in the fact some are so much more rare than others. 

I don't know much about "mushroom" but that is likely a good example an unknown and not understood mutation as the horses appear silver but are genetically testing positive for red?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

It is now a modifier that required at least one parent to have it to pass it on. 

A long, long time ago a mutation happened to create it (in theory) and like others have said - its not likely that those same parameters will be in place to create the same exact gene. But similar ones have also shown up - like Champagne, pearl, etc. 

Another way to look at it is like the genetic diseases that have shown up. HYPP can be traced back to Impressive. Many horses could have it due to him being in their bloodlines, but it seems the mutation that causes that disease happened in his DNA. Why it happened I don't think they will ever know for certain.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

MM, Pearl has been traced back to Barlink Macho Man in QHs, but he is not believed to be the source of it, but rather where it was just found . It is thought to have been added to the breed from way back when when Spanish horses were introduced in North America.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Breezy2011 said:


> Okay... but when you said along the line in breeding... I am talking about when horses first came to be (a very long time ago) and the very first cream gene horse? Where did the cream gene come from? did it just pop up from nowhere.
> 
> I know this question might sound stupid, but I am just curious.


As said, mutations. But it is also a chicken and egg question. Color genes originated loooong before horses evolved. Who is to say cream wasn't the original and black and red were the mutations? No way to know, although honestly, my money will bet the dominant genes came first and the recessives are the mutations...just food for thought...


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Mutations happen, and aren't all that rare- my favorite is Apache, the "macchiato" horse, who seems to have a mutation that caused a coat pattern _and_ a dilution effect. Not only do his parents not have any dilution (they're rather plain looking bays) but there's no dilution present in his breed at all. Apache is gelded, but if he weren't he could theoretically pass on his mutation, which would be a new gene.

Cream probably happened a long time ago (and likely in more than one horse), but there are plenty of breeds in which cream is still not present.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Verona.....


MIND = BLOWN

That was the most fascinating and intriguing thing I've read in awhile! It really makes you think before definitively telling someone their horses CAN'T be palomino if mom and dad were both chestnut. Without testing, we never really know for sure! I LOVE that his owner were open to him being tested! Science rules man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

If one is wondering about new mutations appearing, then the KIT gene is where you want to be looking. It seems particularly unstable and has a high number of mutations.

Other genes tend to be fairly stable, and far less likely to thus mutate. The cream one is probably in this category, although it has mutated twice - once for cream, once for pearl. Agouti is another with a few - brown bay and wild bay. I would disagree with Face though - I don't think that the recessive is necessarily the "mutation" and the dominant the "normal" gene - cream, champagne, pearl, various white spotting genes, are dominant, but we can tell that they are not the default setting for horses - bay dun seems to be the logical base to be honest. Even zebras are proving to be dun under all those stripes.


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