# Bitless ?



## yukontanya (Apr 11, 2010)

This is what I am up grading my geldings to after I do more training in a rope halter... 
Buckaroo Leather - Loping Sidepull Hackamore

Western Horse Tack - horsetackpro.com

Loping Hackamore-Hard Rope: Craig Cameron

I am not sure witch one ill buy yet, the are the perfect mix of rope halter and bosal hackamore


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Just to give you another option, yukon, that last one you posted can also be found at www.nrsworld.com for less money. 

Aztec, I would think that you could make your own very similar to that much cheaper. I would personally go with something a little harder like a rawhide bosal for the initial training stages. It may just be the horses that I ride but in my experience, even an incredible amount of groundwork and preparation won't stop some horses from deciding to buck and if they do, you need something that has a little bit of bite that can get their attention. IMHO, you just can't get that in a rope halter, plus, a halter lacks any kind of finesse at all for the more detailed training.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I would go for something actually designed for bitless.

When I first got Bundy he like to bronc out as he had very bad back pain. I rode him out in a rope halter and lead rope tied as reins once, and sure enough he bronced on me. Well, with his head to his chest, the point where the lead tied to the halter was actually hitting his neck so I had ZERO contact on his head - not fun! Only the fact that he was too fat to put much effot in saved me from being dumped. That was a looooong ride.

If you want a similar look, you could try something like this. I'm going to look into it when I start endurance as i like the idea of being bitless for endurance for ease of drinking. Stilla halter and useable as a halter but has a sliding chin strap for better control:










Natural Horse World Shop Light Rider Bitless Bridles
http://www.naturalhorseworld.com/Products/LRBridle/LRPerformerMed.jpg


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh, yeah. I didn't even think about sidepull type headstalls. One of them would probably work good too because you can give a clear signal when you pick up one rein.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

You actually can get a lot of Finesse in a rope halter.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If that's what you want to believe, spirit, that's fine. I have ridden too many horses over too many years to believe that something so flexible and moveable as a simple rope halter can achieve any level of finesse. That is why you never see top level dressage, reining, cutting, roping, jumping horses that have been ridden all their lives in a halter.


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## AztecBaby (Mar 19, 2009)

Hmm decisions decisions.. thanks for the advice and suggestions guys. I'll have to look into the other designs a bit more and then go from there!


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

*Finesse ?*



Spirithorse said:


> You actually can get a lot of Finesse in a rope halter.


finesse; "refinement; sublte or delicate manipulation"

A rope halter can give the delicate manipulation of the rein contact, however that being said, a rope halter cannot produce refinement in the movements of the horse. It cannot produce _true and correct_ - lateral and longitudinal flexion - collection - engagement of the back and hindquarters.


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## Chella (May 23, 2009)

I use the one by Dr. Cook. Its works nice on my guy.


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## Danjones (Mar 17, 2010)

i recomend a NH rope halter they are efective and gentle and you can do all your work with them i have my horse so all i need to ride is the halter and lead rope


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## Ktibb (Mar 24, 2010)

I thought I might jump in here and suggest my own version.

www.rydembitless.webs.com

I have two designs, one is a simple cross-under, the other is a halter bridle combo. 

Good luck!


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## phoenix (Jun 7, 2010)

I also have the d. cook version and while it worked great to bring him back into work it's just not effective (in my opinion) at giving subtle aids. I've found that the cross under straps tend to stick and not flow back through the rings, maybe it's because i don't have the leather version but this is what i have found. Also my horse has gotten used to the pulling action with both reins and is no longer effective in stopping him from bucking, it's actually started to make him uncomfortable enough to want to buck. 

It's a shame though because i really liked using it.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Well, Spirit Bridle does release pressure while maintaining soft consistent contact...and creates lateral/longitudinal flexion of the poll.
Spirit Bridle can also prevent rearing, bucking, but not crow hopping.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Only training can _prevent_ a horse from rearing/bucking. I don't remember reading where OP was having that problem anyway.


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## Ktibb (Mar 24, 2010)

Smrobs-all I can say to that is Yahtzee!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

So Smrobs and Ktibb, please state your personal experience with SB and/or other cross under the jaw rein bridles.
I have twenty-two years (22), and since I created the cross under the jaw rein technology, I DO know how it works and what it will do..............


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## EmilyRosie (Oct 8, 2010)

I used a Dr.Cook, but then a girl we know made a different kind of noseband so I bought a bridle took off the bit, and put the nose band on that one so you could just get a normal bridle and take of the bit too. So yeah. Dr.Cook is great as well though


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Okay then spirit :roll:.


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## AztecBaby (Mar 19, 2009)

I forgot about this thread, lol.
Thank-you everyone for the suggestions, they are deffinatly appreciated.


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## Rosalle X (Oct 31, 2010)

Hmm if you want this horse a pleasure horse then go for it,

i dont think its true that you can only get a lot of Finesse with a bit, its how you train your horse not whats in its mouth!

example: if you train your horse real CUES to round up and deliver from behind (by teaching it that when you add leg pressure to both sides its to deliver from its rear to beguin with) rather than to have its jaw jerked inwards to sorta 'disengage' the fore and to be pushed into the bit to engage the hind.

its up to you.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

spirithorse8 said:


> Well, Spirit Bridle does release pressure while maintaining soft consistent contact...and creates lateral/longitudinal flexion of the poll.
> Spirit Bridle can also prevent rearing, bucking, but not crow hopping.


To think that I wasted the last 20 years learning how to train a horse not to buck and rear when all I needed was a bitless bridle!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

:rofl: Kevin.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> To think that I wasted the last 20 years learning how to train a horse not to buck and rear when all I needed was a bitless bridle!


Well you cannot read, because that is not what I said.....


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I concede you're right!


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## SlapLeather (Oct 7, 2010)

I think bitless is an awesome way to go. I ride both my horses with rope halters or a hackamore sidepull type bridles, but neck rein. I think the relationship and connection with the horse to where they are sensitive to a soft feel is the greatest thing.

I can have my horse to a full gallop or manuvering through the bush with a rope halter and they are totally responsive and obedient to my slightest pressures. Even if spooked or startled...they are totally confident in my leadership and a bit has nothing to do with helping them be under better control.

I rode a guest ranch horse recently with a bridle and it was so desensitized that the hardest pull on the bridle meant nothing to it. It was horrible. I know that bits can be used properly, just like spurs....with very light touches and feel.

Like I always say, your connection with your horse starts on the ground....eye to eye...heart to heart.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

But Kevin, sometimes it's just so much fun to poke at things with a stick :twisted:.



kevinshorses said:


> To think that I wasted the last 20 years learning how to train a horse not to buck and rear when all I needed was a bitless bridle!


I know, right? LOL. :wink:



spirithorse8 said:


> Well you cannot read, because that is not what I said.....


:think: Funny, because that's sure what is written....VV



spirithorse8 said:


> Well, Spirit Bridle does release pressure while maintaining soft consistent contact...and creates lateral/longitudinal flexion of the poll.
> *Spirit Bridle can also prevent rearing, bucking, but not crow hopping*.


One thing I was wondering about though; how can it stop a buck but not a crow hop. I mean, after all, a crow hop is nothing more than a watered down buck.


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## ngtwondrer (Nov 6, 2010)

i personally swear by the freedom bridle by mossrockendurance. they are wonderful and extremely versatile. the contact feels more seamless than the dr. cook as well. i sold my dr. cook for this bridle and it was a great decision.


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## Katana (Jul 2, 2010)

I ride both with a snaffle bit & in a rope hackamore. I prefer to ride in the ropehackamore. I feel If I need stopping control I would use my Rope Hackamore. To stop, my horses respond first to weight distribution and secondly to the pull on the reins. The bit - I use on organised trail rides as most of them stipulate you must have a bit in your horses mouth. Im not into dressage or anything but I do believe you can obtain a beautiful light feel in a rope hackamore and round your horse up nicely too - it may more take time to train them this way but my own horses are much happier. JMHO


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## Makoda (Jan 17, 2011)

It doesn't matter what you ride with bit, bitless, or nothing at all. Horses learn from the release of pressure. really you can train a horse to ride with just about whatever you want. That's why there are a million different things out there that people have come up with. They all have pros and cons. Just pick which you like the best and go for it. Think about it a fly lands on your horse and he shakes to to get rid of the fly, now that is very very little pressure. So technically speaking a fly can train a horse just by touching it. 

Now why didn't I think of that earlier, flies are natural. And natural horsemanship is getting really popular. Heck, another million dollar idea. Now don't anybody go stealing my idea of riding with flies, I got to go make a million. hahaha J/K


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It DOES matter if you ride with or without a bit, at least for some horses. Of the 3 horses I've tried it with enough to have a worthwhile opinion:

One was afraid of bits. I bought her that way. I was told the previous owner had used stronger bits to control her, and returned her after two months of deteriorating control. She had been taught to fear bits. I've spent 2 years riding her without a bit, and am now starting to use a bit sometimes. In a controlled environment, she does very well bitless. The more excited she gets, the greater the challenge. She doesn't have to be afraid of something to get intense enough that a bitless gives only so-so control.

The mare I recently sold didn't seem to care bit or bitless. In a couple of years of riding her with both, I never noticed any difference in how she rode.

The gelding is afraid of doing something wrong, and a bit gives him confidence that he knows what his rider wants. I've ridden him a lot bitless, but he is happier and more confident with a bit.

Each horse, depending on the situation, will respond differently. There isn't a magic bullet that works with everything.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

bsms said:


> She doesn't have to be afraid of something to get intense enough that a bitless gives only so-so control.


bit's don't control horses. neither do bitless bridles or rope halters.

if bit's "controlled" horses there would be no such thing as a problem horse, because the problems would be controlled before they presented themselves in the form of a behavioral problem.

honestly doesn't matter what tack your using, as long as you've established it as a secure means of communication you should be gravy.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

christopher said:


> bit's don't control horses. neither do bitless bridles or rope halters.
> 
> if bit's "controlled" horses there would be no such thing as a problem horse, because the problems would be controlled before they presented themselves in the form of a behavioral problem.
> 
> honestly doesn't matter what tack your using, as long as you've established it as a secure means of communication you should be gravy.


You've misinterpreted what I was trying to say. Bits, bitless, legs, spurs, whatever - all are about control. You need to send a message the horse is willing and able to respond to. Sometimes the message needed is "Snap out of it!" That requires something that can get through the background noise. A pulley stop, for example, isn't about mechanically forcing a horse to stop mid-bolt. Mechanical means of control don't tend to exist. If they did, we could apply them to a new horse and win competitions.

But a slightly modified rope halter, which is what I use for bitless riding, doesn't have much finesse and really doesn't offer a way to shout at the horse. Imagine riding with your legs surrounded by foam rubber. It would make it easy for a horse to miss or ignore leg cues.

Same with a rope halter. When things are good, she'll respond to taking some of the slack out of the rein. As she gets more intense, it requires pulling on the rein to get through the background noise of her intensity - fear or excitement, doesn't matter. After that, one starts to run out of options. 

That is why, after a 2+ year gap, I'm starting to use a bit sometimes with her. She isn't afraid of them like she was when I got her, and I want the option to send clearer signals. Sometimes I want to shout, "Ignore the bicyclist a mile away and turn!" And I'd like to be able to do it without grabbing a lot of rein and forcing her head way to one side.

Tack does matter. I spent most of my life as an electronic warfare officer. In an EF-111, my job was to jam enemy radars so that the real aircraft returns couldn't be seen. Both fear and excitement - even happiness - can 'jam' the horse's mind. When that happens, you either find a way to break thru the jamming, or you have no inputs left to the horse. No input = no 'control'.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

> You need to send a message the horse is willing and able to respond to. Sometimes the message needed is "Snap out of it!" That requires something that can get through the background noise.
> 
> As she gets more intense, it requires pulling on the rein to get through the background noise of her intensity - fear or excitement, doesn't matter


more pulling on the reins in a rope halter vs snaffle bit: 

provided you know what your doing in establishing the communication, the halter is safer than the snaffle. why? because if need be, pulling hard on a halter causes little pain compared to the snaffle, without compromising your position of leverage over the horses neck. the pain from the snaffle would create more "background noise" as mentioned above, creating more problems.

although i do agree, they lack the finesse of bits (this is why they are rarely seen in competition, but a good trainer always has one in their arsenal), do not underestimate their ability to effectively communicate with an out of control horse. this is why rope halters & bosals are such good training tools, as in an emergency you can literally pull your horses head around to your boot in a nice bent position (where the worst that can happen is you'll be a bit uncomfortable). where doing a similar action in an ordinary snaffle would more likely cause your horse to rear from the pain than if attempted in a rope halter/bosal.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

christopher said:


> more pulling on the reins in a rope halter vs snaffle bit:
> 
> provided you know what your doing in establishing the communication, the halter is safer than the snaffle. why? because if need be, pulling hard on a halter causes little pain compared to the snaffle, without compromising your position of leverage over the horses neck...
> 
> ...as in an emergency you can literally pull your horses head around to your boot in a nice bent position (where the worst that can happen is you'll be a bit uncomfortable). where doing a similar action in an ordinary snaffle would more likely cause your horse to rear from the pain than if attempted in a rope halter/bosal.


It may depend on the type of bitless. The halter I use lacks the leverage of a bit, simply because the rings (when she pulls) are halfway up her head and not closer to the end. I can always turn her head if I pull hard enough, but I can't tuck her head because the leverage is at the wrong point.

The 'pain' of the bit isn't meant to terrify them. The pressure applied should be enough to cut thru the background noise. I'm not talking about ripping the horse's head off while riding her with a bit, just getting a signal past her fear or excitement.

I've pulled a bolting horse's head around to my boot using a bit of some sort. It was 30 years ago, I was a visitor on a ranch, and I don't remember what kind of bit they used. It didn't make the horse rear, but neither did it turn the %&#%*&#. He continued galloping toward a barb wire fence with no concern that his nose was at my knee. So I kicked his right shoulder as hard as a could, and kept doing it until he turned enough to miss the barbed wire. Then we galloped until he tired.

For all my many faults as a rider, I don't use reins for balance. Nor do I panic and start yanking like a madman. Those who do shouldn't use a bit or be allowed to ride off of a lunge line until they behave better.

Some bitless bridles are designed to apply more pressure, and to keep it closer to where a bit sits. I don't use them because they seem at least as harsh as a snaffle. All other things being equal, I prefer riding no bit - but things aren't always equal. I've got an excitable Arabian mare and a 52 year old body that is still sore after my last tumble TWO YEARS ago.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i can appreciate where you're coming from. 

i'd say this horse probably threw his head up in ignorance, as the horse can either do 3 things when asked for this first part of a one rein stop, bend nicely, violently throw his head, or advance that head throwing to a rear.

the best kind of bitless riding in my opinion is a simple properly fitting rope halter, low down on the horses nose. no sidepulls or anything as they are renowned to ride up the horses face, giving you less leverage if an emergency were to really arise.

with both reins attatched to the same place, you will have to be more direct with your rein aids and really learn how to use one rein at a time.

your situation sounds a lot like my mothers, she had a fall from a horse late last year and broke some of her back, she's up and well now and still rides, but i recommend she use the bit, not because it's "better" or offers more control than a halter, just because the particular horse she rides was broken in with a snaffle and has been ridden in a snaffle all its life.



> Some bitless bridles are designed to apply more pressure, and to keep it closer to where a bit sits. I don't use them because they seem at least as harsh as a snaffle


so there you go, perfect training tool. you'd agree that when both are "idling", the halter is less invasive and lighter than the bit. so, we have a piece of tack that is lighter when all is well and lightness is easily achieved, but in dire emergencies (bolting horse, bucking horse etc), harsher when you need it to be harsher (without causing the pain a similar force applied to a bit would cause)

to start any horse i know which i'd choose


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

christopher said:


> this is why rope halters & bosals are such good training tools, as in an emergency you can literally pull your horses head around to your boot in a nice bent position (where the worst that can happen is you'll be a bit uncomfortable). where doing a similar action in an ordinary snaffle would more likely cause your horse to rear from the pain than if attempted in a rope halter/bosal.


A rope halter and a bosal are 2 very very different things and should never be confused. A rope halter is just that a halter. A bosel works off pressure and is transition from the snaffle to the curb.

As to the bit causing the horse to rear from the pain. You should tall all my horses who where all started in a snaffle and made to flex all the way around to their side that they where in pain and should have been rearing. Thing is they did not and where not. They learned with in just a few times that when I picked up the rein on that side and used my leg that is what I wanted. By the time I wad one. Normally in just a few rides I had to barely pick up on the rein or push with my leg. 

A bosal is used in a very similar way. However the horse has already learned to flex and give to the snaffle so when you go to the bosal they know.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

that's fine, if you've taught it correctly. and no, a rope halter is just a flexible, slightly thinner bosal. provided it's an actual rope halter, not one of those ones that tighten under pressure which as a breaker/developer i would reccomend to nobody.

and again, no. traditionally the process went bosal, then snaffle, then curb. and this is how best results were achieved. the snaffle being the transition, between the bosal which offered high% lateral flexion, low% vertical flexion and the curb which offered low% lateral flexion, high% vertical flexion. they just needed to find a "bosal" (high% lateral low% vertical) that involved a mouthpiece.

i'm not saying teaching your horse to flex in a snaffle is bad, or using a snaffle at all is bad, just that in the initial stages of training (which is what this thread is about) you are safer and you will maximize progress and minimize mouth desensitization in a halter or bosal.

when it comes to riding, halters and bosals are actually extremely similar in that the only active piece is a continuous loop around the horses nose (stiffness and width do differ, but that's objectively irrelavent) where the reins attatch to 1 central point under the horses chin.

i'm open for debate.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

christopher said:


> that's fine, if you've taught it correctly. and no, a rope halter is just a flexible, slightly thinner bosal. provided it's an actual rope halter, not one of those ones that tighten under pressure which as a breaker/developer i would reccomend to nobody.
> 
> *No it is not. A bosel is not any where close to a halter. *
> 
> ...


yes the reins are attached under the chin with a Bosel however the horse already needs to know how to flex before you put them into a bosel as that is the start of neck reining. That is why you start out with a snaffle. The horse learns to give in the snaffle then the bosal is put over the snaffle so if needed it is used to flex the horses head. The bosel is used by bumping and neck reining and is reinforced with the snaffle until the horse learns to neck rein then they are moved up to the curb once they neck rein well.
I tend to each all my horses to neck rein as the same time they are learning to flex and turn in the snaffle.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

why does a horse need to know how to flex before he can be put into a bosal? why can't the teaching process of flexion be taught in the bosal? is there any reason for this?

here's the process as i'm familiar with it:

bosal: "bit" up the horse (or do it manually) in the bosal/halter, spend some time getting them soft to the bosal/halter and the lateral flexion the bosal/halter offers, once that's achieved it's time to move on.

snaffle: the snaffle is the same as the bosal/halter when it comes to lateral flexion, the only difference is you're seeking to achieve a backwards/slowing aid via the mouth VS bridge of the nose.

curb: if you've achieved the backwards aid in the snaffle, the transition from snaffle to curb will be barely noticable, the only difference is the curb will super sensitize (creating a "champion horse", or de sensitize, creating a "problem" horse, depending greatly on how it's used) to the backwards/slowing aid via the mouth. however the curb offers little when it comes to lateral flexion, this, and the fact that any other process compromises oral sensitivity, is why we go through the whole process of bosal then snaffle then curb (known to any vaquero afficionado as "haquima to freno").

neck reining takes a very short time to teach, if properly taught. and can be taught equally as well in a bosal/halter or snaffle.

how this is not commonsense among horsemen is beyond me.

i can tell some of you are saying to yourselves "but my horse was bit up in a snaffle and is a light as a feather and we compete & win in reining/dressage etc"
my simple response to that is: your horse would be lighter than afformentioned "feather" if this traditional process of bosal - snaffle - curb was followed, and you'd be winning more reining/dressage classes than you are now.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

christopher said:


> i can tell some of you are saying to yourselves "but my horse was bit up in a snaffle and is a light as a feather and we compete & win in reining/dressage etc"
> my simple response to that is: your horse would be lighter than afformentioned "feather" if this traditional process of bosal - snaffle - curb was followed, and you'd be winning more reining/dressage classes than you are now.


man you should tell that to people like Shawn Flarida. What over $4 Million in earnings. 

If you want to do it the other way. Fine. I personally have used a bosal after the snaffle and have had good results. However I have found it is not needed. I have found that going to the curb from the snaffle works very well as dose most of the trainers I have used over the years. Some trainers in Reined cow horse do use a bosal however all of the ones I have seen start in a snaffle. Funny they all have very light responsive horses who win quite well.

As have all my horses. They are quite light. See no need for them to be any lighter. As all I need to do is move my hand less then an inch on draped reins. 

At the end of the day if your horse works for what you want to use them for that is what counts. I personally will not change how I do thing or have my trainers change how they do things. They have proven that what is being done works quite well.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

There is one reason you might start a horse in a bosal rather than a snaffle: dentition. Horses can be working on their adult teeth until age five. I have chosen a bosal over a snaffle when a horse's mouth seems tender from dental changes.
You can teach a horse flexion in a bosal because of the stiff noseband. Even though the reins attach under the nose, when you direct rein it does pull the nose around because of the stiffness. This causes its action to be slightly different from a rope halter because it works more on the sides of the horse's face. 
I have not found rope halters, bosals, bitless bridles or hackamores to give refined cues, but they can have their place. On a calm, trained horse working mostly off your seat and legs it might be all you ever need. Of all of the above I like a mechanical hackamore the least because if your horse does not respond to neck reining in a certain situation you can't use direct reining as backup.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I can see and agree that if a horse is having some dental issues and they can not be easily solved then a bosel is a good choice. I have yet to have a horse with these issues however I am sure there are those out there that do.

Bosals do have their place and I have used them and if I was doing more reined cow horse with young horses I would probably use one more. As it stands reining horses are not shown in a bosal or snaffles.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

staying out of the horses mouth in initial training is far too underrated because your horse does not care if he has a callused mouth (which probably compromises his overall potential for "refinement"), he's just trying to escape the pressure we're applying and whether that be by pushing into it or submiting to it is 100% up to the horse, and 0% up to the trainer. untill the language of "submit to pressure" is established i'd never have anything enter a horses mouth, because untill this language is established there's a greater risk the horse will fight the pressure than submit to it. and bitting a horse while there's still a desire within him to fight is terrible, because if your at all unlucky and he does fight you've just unnecesarrily damaged his mouth.

and yes, bosals rope halters etc do not produce refinement, but as mentioned above they do preserve a horses future potential for refinement, which should be high on any trainers priorities.



> You can teach a horse flexion in a bosal because of the stiff noseband. Even though the reins attach under the nose, when you direct rein it does pull the nose around because of the stiffness. This causes its action to be slightly different from a rope halter because it works more on the sides of the horse's face.


if, on a rope halter, both reins are attatched to the fiador knot, then direct reining one (provided the other is slackened) will move the fiador knot to that side, twisting the whole halter around, so that the nosepiece and ropes leading to the fiador are lopsided. therefore the pressure will be on one side of the horses face and no pressure will be on the other side. and when you release that, providing you don't tie your halters extremely tight on the horses head, the halter will fall back to a relaxed straight up/down position. so no, there is no real difference between a bosal and a rope halter, as stated before, the only active piece is a continuous loop around the nose on which the reins attatch in the middle. thus if you direct rein 1 rein and slacken the other, the whole loop will move to find a place where pressure sits on the side of the horses face. the stiffness/width only effects it's severity, not it's action, which as i've said is objectively irrelavent.

i cannot see how this is too hard to understand, and most arguments posted against it simply haven't made sense and/or been relavent.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

First a rope halter will move as you described. A bosal will not. It is designed to work on the under side of the horses jaw. It does not slide from one side to the other. So they work in different ways. Yes you can direct rein a horse is a bosal that is why they use it in reined cow horse futurities. They need that extra ability that the horses are not yet ready to do in a full bridle. Reiners are shown even as 3yo in a full bridle.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

"he's just trying to escape the pressure we're applying and whether that be by pushing into it or submiting to it is 100% up to the horse, and 0% up to the trainer."

When a horse is introduced to pressure in any form he is trying to make the pressure go away. What he does FIRST is up to him. But the trainer should only release the pressure when the horse gives the appropriate response the trainer is looking for. So if the trainer wants the horse to give to the pressure, then if the horse's first response is to push back the trainer cannot release the pressure until the horse gives. Otherwise the trainer will teach the horse that the appropriate response is to push. So a lot of it is up to the trainer, not just the horse.

"bosals rope halters etc do not produce refinement, but as mentioned above they do preserve a horses future potential for refinement, which should be high on any trainers priorities."

Any horse has future potential for refinement. Even abused ones.

I would prefer to start a horse in a bosal, sidepull or bitless bridle over a rope halter because if you DO fit them so they're not too tight and then direct rein, the cheekpiece can slide over into the horse's eye. They are fine for neck reining.

​


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

gottatrot said:


> When a horse is introduced to pressure in any form he is trying to make the pressure go away. What he does FIRST is up to him. But the trainer should only release the pressure when the horse gives the appropriate response the trainer is looking for. So if the trainer wants the horse to give to the pressure, then if the horse's first response is to push back the trainer cannot release the pressure until the horse gives. Otherwise the trainer will teach the horse that the appropriate response is to push. So a lot of it is up to the trainer, not just the horse.
> 
> I would prefer to start a horse in a bosal, sidepull or bitless bridle over a rope halter because if you DO fit them so they're not too tight and then direct rein, the cheekpiece can slide over into the horse's eye. They are fine for neck reining.


being a trainer myself the first paragraph is nothing at all new to me. the theory of negative reinforcment (pressure comes on, only the right response is rewarded by releasing the pressure. but what if the first response isn't the right one, and your in a snaffle bit? then you either A: release the pressure to save your horses mouth, but in doing so teach him the opposite of what you were originally intending, or B keep the pressure rising slowly, risk damaging your horses mouth, all for the sake of teaching your horse the appropriate response, this is why i belive the appropriate response should be taught well before you consider putting a bit in your horses mouth)

and for the 2nd paragraph, think about this:

rope halters were designed to lead your horse, right?

now, leading your horse and direct reining are exactly the same thing, but in one example your sitting on the horse and in the other your standing beside the horse. despite those differences and pressure on the poll meaning go forward/using your legs meaning go forward, the direction of the "feel" on the halter is (should be, if your doing it right) exactly the same. thus proving that if what you say is correct in that you can't direct rein a horse with a rope halter, then rope halters are utterly pointless and useless for their intended (and all other) purpose(s). do you not agree?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

christopher:
I'm not sure if this is worth debating since I believe your mind is made up already but...

There is nothing that says the pressure applied in a snaffle when first starting a horse has to be a lot of pressure or has to be increased if the horse does not make the correct response. Say you are pulling gently on one rein to teach a horse to turn his head. A slight amount of pressure will be enough to bother a horse. There is no risk AT ALL of hurting a horse's mouth or causing nerve damage. All I'm talking about is the amount of pressure as if you pressed your thumb on the outside of a horse's lips. Then you wait. The horse will offer different things to try to get the pressure to go away. Possibilities include pulling back, giving the head, shaking the head, moving the feet. All you do is hold the light pressure until the horse offers the response you want. Repetition cements the cue/release in the horse's mind. This involves no more pressure than a person teaching a horse to lead in a halter.

Leading in a rope halter and riding in a rope halter is different because leading a horse forward does not cause the rope halter to twist up and to the side. In my experience this usually causes the halter cheeks to rub the horse's eye. Like I said, if your horse can neck rein it works fine.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

My question is why are you even on the horses back if the horse does not already have a general idea of how to give to pressure of the bit. Mine learn this the first few days before I ever get on them. Once I am on them they already have an idea of giving to the bit and the leg. By the 4-5 ride I have spurs on and they have a general idea of what they are and what they should be doing. Same goes when I send a horse to my trainer.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

> This involves no more pressure than a person teaching a horse to lead in a halter.


then why can't you teach it in a halter?



> Leading in a rope halter and riding in a rope halter is different because leading a horse forward does not cause the rope halter to twist up and to the side. In my experience this usually causes the halter cheeks to rub the horse's eye. Like I said, if your horse can neck rein it works fine.


what about if your horse runs in front of you while leading, and your holding the rope at it's end, the horse gets out in front, runs into the halter because of how your holding it and is forced to turn around because of it. although extreme and i would never intentionally replicate this sudden jerking of a horses head, it has achieved direct reining.

next time your out with your horses, with a rope halter or even a web/leather halter, stand beside your horse, and try softly pulling it's head towards you. if you can, you're direct reining, if you can't, your doing it wrong. if halters of any description couldn't achieve direct reining then they would be no good at all for tying a horse.



> I'm not sure if this is worth debating since I believe your mind is made up already but


lets agree to disagree then.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I won't ride anything but very well trained horses in a rope halter. They are NOT made for riding in.

I learnt from experience.

When I first got my current horse he had quite bad chronic pain from an ill-fitting saddle. It was in the process of being dealt with (He is 100% now, thankfully). He used to try and buck as a learned response to pain which turned into a habit because it was successful with his past owner. I rode him out on a trail with a group of others in a rope halter.

Big mistake.

The issue is that on most rope halters, the length of the nose loop to the fiador knot is too long. The problem I had was when his hed went down/in to try and buck, the fiador knot hit the underside of his neck before putting any pressure on his nose. I was stuck on a horse attemtping to buck, with only the ability to pull on the base of his neck. Not fun!

I have no issues riding a well broke horse in a rope halter as that situation most likely wouldn't occur. But there is no way youwould bet me on a greenie in one. I love the idea of bitless on a green horse - But not a rope halter.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

wild_spot said:


> *1:*I won't ride anything but very well trained horses in a rope halter. They are NOT made for riding in.
> 
> *2:*The issue is that on most rope halters, the length of the nose loop to the fiador knot is too long. The problem I had was when his hed went down/in to try and buck, the fiador knot hit the underside of his neck before putting any pressure on his nose. I was stuck on a horse attemtping to buck, with only the ability to pull on the base of his neck. Not fun!


*1: *that would depend on how well your horse is trained to the halter. a horse can be "well trained" to a bit, without being "well trained" to a halter. the reason i suggest it for green horses is it has the potential to produce a more quality result if you transit to the snaffle from the halter and not vice versa.

*2: *one rein stop. the most crucial thing anybody with a horse that would buck/bolt can know, regardless of tack. pulling back on both reins in such situations, again regardless of tack, is a serious vice. it has the potential to vertically flex the horse, giving them more power to abuse.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

One other thing about a rope halter on a bucking horse, even a well taught greenie can 'forget' what they've been taught in a moment of panic or annoyance. If one takes his head and goes to bucking in a halter, even if you are only pulling one rein, then it acts very similar to a bronc halter like you see in saddle bronc events. Unless you can ride a buck while holding your rein out to the side, then you are just giving them something to brace against. Maybe you have been lucky so far and not run into a really nasty bucker.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

riden plenty of buckers. violent ones too. perhaps my age and agility helps with maintaining proper flexion technique in a rope halter while being bucked.

i'm accepting of the fact people have different methods, which work sufficiently. although using some logic i've proven that a halter/hackamore is the simplest, safest, and kindest way to go. this is, i believe why, the native american indians and vacqueros and many other world famous horsemen put such an emphasis on starting the horse in the hackamore (for the reason's i've previously posted i assume) and a rope halter is just a flexible hackamore.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

christopher said:


> *1: *that would depend on how well your horse is trained to the halter. a horse can be "well trained" to a bit, without being "well trained" to a halter. the reason i suggest it for green horses is it has the potential to produce a more quality result if you transit to the snaffle from the halter and not vice versa.


See I call BS on this. A well trained horse is a well trained horse regardless of what you put on their head. All mine are started in a snaffle then on to a curb. Every one of my finished well trained horses can be ridden with no bridle at all. It is part of the training. If they are well trained you do not even need a bit. See free style reining since the 70-80 on up to present day.

Does not matter what you start a horse in. What matters is how you do it with what you use. Just like it is not the bit but the hands.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> *1: that would depend on how well your horse is trained to the halter. a horse can be "well trained" to a bit, without being "well trained" to a halter. the reason i suggest it for green horses is it has the potential to produce a more quality result if you transit to the snaffle from the halter and not vice versa.
> *




I agree with NRHAReiner on this. When I say 'trained' and am referring to one of my own horses, I mean that it is trained to respond to any aids I may give it. Doesn't matter if it is in a bit, halter, or just a neck rope. 

Second point - I do not use one rein stops. Don't like them, never have. I do a lot of lateral flexion, but I don't want my horse to learn to disconnect it's head from it's feet and think flexing of the head means a halt in forward motion. I ride in a lot of speed events and events where sharp turns are the norm - While I never need to use my rein to the extent I would in a ORS I don't want even the slightest stall in forward momentum when I pick up one rein. 

What I was trying to do that ride was get his head up and get him forward again, which sets him right again. This I could not do in the rope halter.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> pulling back on both reins in such situations, again regardless of tack, is a serious vice. it has the potential to vertically flex the horse, giving them more power to abuse.


Forgot to say - I wasn't pulling on both reins but one - But the halter had the same effect as if I was pulling on both. I was on a trail with other horses around and did not want to cause an accident.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Does not matter what you start a horse in. What matters is how you do it with what you use. Just like it is not the bit but the hands.


then why all previous debate?

wild spot, one rein stop is like having an air brake on a truck. you may not like it for your daily transitions, and if you were a trucker in need of controlling your speed, you'd probably use the foot brake. but in an emercency, if you were a trucker, you'd be darn glad you had an air brake.
if the halter had the same effect, you weren't being direct enough. not the halters fault.

and to whoever said a well trained snaffle horse is a well trained halter horse, the rein pressure ultimately goes to a different place (unless your going from a full cheek snaffle to a noseband), therefore the horse gets different messages which the horse can comprehend differently, depending on the situation. if you've only ever ridden in a bit, going straight from a bit to bitless (providing you dont use your seat/legs for slowing/turning aids, and the aids are purely on the headgear) then you will, 100% guaranteed, encounter resistance, because it's a new pressure and the horse has to go through the whole "how can i escape this" thought process again. if not, your lucky, or you used seat/leg aids that can be used regardless of headgear. if you combine the 2 however, use the new one to start with and back it up if need be with the one the horse is familiar with then you'll be achieving an effective transition from bit to bitless or vice versa, rather than going through the whole bitting up process again with different headgear.

that is how i start a horse in a halter and sequentially go up to a curb. it ensures i never have to deal with any resistance at all when it comes time to put something in their mouths, keeping their mouths as precious as they were the day they come to me, and keeping them ludicrously responsive to rein aids via a mouthpiece the day they leave me.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

christopher said:


> then why all previous debate?


Because you jumped right to "Starting them in a halter is the only way and the best way and if you do it any other way, you're wrong and you are ruining whatever potiential the horse has". Were you expecting everyone to just agree that we were wrong and you are right and "OMG, please forgive us for questioning your unerring knowledge"? :? 

Right. That worked well :roll::lol:.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

christopher said:


> then why all previous debate?
> 
> *B/C starting a horse in a halter is a wast of time.* *Plus what SMROBS stated.*
> 
> ...


Same can be said of any good trainer even the ones who start horses in a snaffle bit which most of the trainer I use and know do. Can not think of one that does not.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

smrobs said:


> you're wrong and you are ruining whatever potiential the horse has


never said that, said most other typical methods risk it (then blame the horse, cause it was a process of bitting up where the rein was tied onto the horse, seeing fault in how the horse responded rather than see potential preperations for such an endevour). on an animal with a mouth as sensitive as a horses i'd rather not take such a risk.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> (providing you dont use your seat/legs for slowing/turning aids, and the aids are purely on the headgear)


Why would you assume that? My goal when training is to have my horse so light that I hardly have to touch the bit. I know I am on my way to that goal when I can unclip my reins, loop them around my boys neck, and go and do all the same things without anything else. I can do rollbacks, haunch turns, backing, stops, changes - All without a bridle. I don't make a habit of it, but that is how I test my training. 

I think you are determined to have an argument! I think you will find we all generally agree with what you are saying, it is only semantics and specifics you insist on arguing about. I totally agree with your views on starting a horse bitless and so preserving the mouth. The only thing I don't agree with is riding greenies in a rope halter - is that such a horrible difference of opinion? Some don't like snaffles, some don't like curbs, and hey, I don't like rope halters. No big deal. 



> wild spot, one rein stop is like having an air brake on a truck. you may not like it for your daily transitions, and if you were a trucker in need of controlling your speed, you'd probably use the foot brake. but in an emercency, if you were a trucker, you'd be darn glad you had an air brake.


Why does nearly every trainer who espouses the ORS say that you MUST practice it for it to be effective? It is this repetition I refuse to use. I haven't been bolted on for years, and while the ride I mentioned was annoying not being able to get his head up, it wasn't a big deal - And I haven't been bucked off in years either. Obviously the methods I choose to use work for me. I have plenty of other techniques I can use in an emergency that have all worked one time or another. I do refuse to practice a technique that I find unecessary and that may cause my horse to loose forward momentum through a sharp turn. The disciplines I compete in, every second counts, and every manouvre must be correct if I am to do well. It makes zero sense to me to train something into my horses that I will probably never used that will be detrimental to my goals.



> if the halter had the same effect, you weren't being direct enough. not the halters fault.


How could I have been more direct? I did NOT want to turn as I have explained - I wanted to bring his head back up with the use of one rein. I would love to know how to effectively do this in a rope halter that would not cause the fiador to hit the neck.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Nrha, even though our methods differ, I still agree wholeheartedly with you. As a choice, I don't use as many leg and seat cues as you do (though I can still stop and turn them without reins, it's not really my preferred way). 

Anyway, I just wanted to add that even without that particular type of training, a well trained horse will still respond to a bitless the same as a bit, christopher. I never do any 'prep' work to ride my horses bitless, I just wait for a day when they feel ready. Then I put a halter on them and go. I have yet to have any 'resistance' when I asked for them to bend, turn, stop, or whatever else I wanted them to do.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Nrha, even though our methods differ, I still agree wholeheartedly with you. As a choice, I don't use as many leg and seat cues as you do (though I can still stop and turn them without reins, it's not really my preferred way).
> 
> *That just comes down to what we do with our horses. If I had kept roping I probable would not want all the cues on my horses that I have. I find those cues can get you into some trouble when doing certain things and you do not want that. With reiners and reined cow horses you really need those cues.*
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to add that even without that particular type of training, a well trained horse will still respond to a bitless the same as a bit, christopher. I never do any 'prep' work to ride my horses bitless, I just wait for a day when they feel ready. Then I put a halter on them and go. I have yet to have any 'resistance' when I asked for them to bend, turn, stop, or whatever else I wanted them to do.


I agree once they are trained and under stand what pressure is they know what is being asked no matter when or where you are asking.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I will also say that non of my horses know a one reined stop nor will they. They are trained to stop off my seat and they are also trained to hunt the stop. Never seen or had a need for a one reined stop on any horse I have even owned. 

Also like wild spot stated. It would be counter productive for what I want from my horses.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

christopher said:


> on an animal with a mouth as sensitive as a horses i'd rather not take such a risk.


And that it your choice, but it is not your place to berate people or flat out tell us "You're wrong" simply because we do things differently. There are a million ways to skin a cat (as the old saying goes). You choose to start them bitless. Nrha, myself, and many others choose to start them in snaffles. That certainly does not make you any better than us, nor your horses better than ours, in any way. For you to imply that it does (which you _did_, by the way), is downright obnoxious and offensive.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

christopher said:


> riden plenty of buckers. violent ones too. perhaps my age and agility helps with maintaining proper flexion technique in a rope halter while being bucked.
> 
> i'm accepting of the fact people have different methods, which work sufficiently. although using some logic i've proven that a halter/hackamore is the simplest, safest, and kindest way to go. this is, i believe why, the native american indians and vacqueros and many other world famous horsemen put such an emphasis on starting the horse in the hackamore (for the reason's i've previously posted i assume) and a rope halter is just a flexible hackamore.


 
A bosal hackamore is made of a twisted rawhide core with braided rawhide around it. They are far removed from a piece of rope tied into a halter. If you believe they are the same then you have not been sufficently educated.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Anyway, I just wanted to add that even without that particular type of training, a well trained horse will still respond to a bitless the same as a bit, christopher. I never do any 'prep' work to ride my horses bitless, I just wait for a day when they feel ready. Then I put a halter on them and go. I have yet to have any 'resistance' when I asked for them to bend, turn, stop, or whatever else I wanted them to do.


my mistake. i meant to say if your horse has only ever been ridden and lead with a bit, then you'll encounter such resistance.

also you all seem to be underestimating the one rein stop significantly, perhaps because most of the people in this debate are into a performance aspect of horses, whereas i'm into breaking/training (with the exception of smrobs, who so far hasn't mentioned the one rein stop). a one rein stop is something your horse literally cannot run through. so in the intial stages of development it is crucial.

i choose to end the debate with a closing statement: riding and leading are the same thing, from different positions and/or at different speeds.
when i say leading your horse, i dont mean towing your horse. horse walks beside you, if the horse gets in front of you, standstill holding the lead (much like a one rein stop from their back), horse lags behind, tell it to G up a notch. this avoids all complication/unnecessities when it comes to starting a horse provided you use the same headgear, as in the process of leading and groundwork, you've taught your horse all the necesarry rein aids, only things one must do after that, establish confidence in the horse when it has someone on it's back, and establish a forward aid from a mounted position. once achieved and some riding hours have been given, transitioning to a full bridle will be harmonious at worst.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I've never known a single person who lead, tied, and rode their horses in nothing but a bit. Not every horse who has been 'trained' can be ridden in a halter, regardless of how they lead, that is where being 'well trained' comes into play.

I believe that the one rein stop has it's place. Buckers, certainly. Bolters, depends on the situation and the area. I also believe that most people overdo it. I don't want my horse to stop his feet when I pick up one rein. I use it to take the power away from what they are trying to do, whether it is bucking or running off.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

christopher said:


> ...a one rein stop is something your horse literally cannot run through. so in the intial stages of development it is crucial...


I'm no where near competent enough to discuss how to train a new horse. However, I definitely HAVE had a horse gallop with his nose at my knee. Towards a barbed wire fence. Turning a horse's head doesn't always turn a horse, and a horse CAN literally run through it.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

smrobs said:


> I've never known a single person who lead, tied, and rode their horses in nothing but a bit. Not every horse who has been 'trained' can be ridden in a halter, regardless of how they lead, that is where being 'well trained' comes into play.
> 
> I believe that the one rein stop has it's place. Buckers, certainly. Bolters, depends on the situation and the area. I also believe that most people overdo it. I don't want my horse to stop his feet when I pick up one rein. I use it to take the power away from what they are trying to do, whether it is bucking or running off.


what if your horse has been "well trained", the only difference being that in the process the horse was wearing a halter rather than snaffle/curb?

i agree with all you said. one rein stopping is also good for horses who tend to get faster when you ask for a rounded corner. one of my mares when i neck reined her lightly (previous endurance horse) around a trail she violently built up speed while she was turning, and a one rein stop in the same direction of travel soon solvered the problem.

but yes, people either overdo it or underdo it, which saddens me.



bsms said:


> I'm no where near competent enough to discuss how to train a new horse. However, I definitely HAVE had a horse gallop with his nose at my knee. Towards a barbed wire fence. Turning a horse's head doesn't always turn a horse, and a horse CAN literally run through it.


that's why the 2nd part to a one rein stop is to use the same leg and push the hindquarter over, causing the rear legs of the horse to cross over, denying them all power. usually the just the flexion is enough to stop a horse, but in cases like yours, if the horse was familiar with the full one rein stop then as i said, the horse wouldn't be able to run through it at all.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

christopher said:


> what if your horse has been "well trained", the only difference being that in the process the horse was wearing a halter rather than snaffle/curb?


That should be each person's own choice and there is no call for _anyone_ to claim that anyone else is wrong.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

the debate was about the effectiveness/simplicity/kindness of one method vs another, not peoples choice of one method vs another.

not to say bitting up in a snaffle is ineffective, complicated or specifically unkind (though it can be), just that there's simply a better method, inspired by the native american indians who, as a culture, were arguably the most understanding horsemen the world has seen, but adapted to suit modern sports which for whatever reason have strict rules regarding the type of headgear to be used.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

*scoffs* And that, exactly, is the snobby attitude that spurred this entire thing. Just because _you_ believe it's better doesn't mean it's better for everyone or every horse. 

Native Americans also used animal sinew or leather strips tied through the mouth (where you would place a bit) and around the lower jaw just as often as they used improvised hackamores.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I hear a lot of you saying that a trained horse should be able to wear any sort of head gear and be well controlled in any situation.
In my opinion it depends on what the situation is and what your horse's temperament is. I will ride a well trained horse in an arena or a calm trail ride with a rope halter on or a bitless bridle. Even if that horse is a hot blood and fit for an endurance race. But I would be crazy to think it was safe to take the same horse out on the starting line of an endurance ride and have 30 horses taking off at once with the horse wearing only a rope halter. Either me or the horse is going to get hurt. So you can train a horse very well, but you can't necessarily train a horse for every situation they may face. Sometimes you have to have something that the horse can "hear" through tremendous amounts of distraction.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

christopher said:


> ...that's why the 2nd part to a one rein stop is to use the same leg and push the hindquarter over, causing the rear legs of the horse to cross over, denying them all power. usually the just the flexion is enough to stop a horse, but in cases like yours, if the horse was familiar with the full one rein stop then as i said, the horse wouldn't be able to run through it at all.


A bolting horse can run thru most anything, up to trying to run thru a fence. If they responded to training and cues, then by definition, they would not be bolting.

In an arena, a one rein stop can be an option. On many trails, it is not. And when a horse gets wound up enough, your leg will NOT MAKE THEM disengage the rear. I'd kind of like to find a technique for anything that would MAKE a thousand pounds of muscle do what I want.



gottatrot said:


> ...But I would be crazy to think it was safe to take the same horse out on the starting line of an endurance ride and have 30 horses taking off at once with the horse wearing only a rope halter. Either me or the horse is going to get hurt...Sometimes you have to have something that the horse can "hear" through tremendous amounts of distraction.


Exactly. I like riding my horses in a rope halter (a rope version of a sidepull halter) in some situations. I'm reintroducing my mare to the bit because I want to safely ride her in some other situations. I'm an advocate of riding bitless - on some horses and in some environments. But I don't like every bitless bridle, and I don't advocate it as the end all of riding.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

bsms said:


> A bolting horse can run thru most anything, up to trying to run thru a fence.


then what makes you think you'd be at all better in a snaffle bit vs bitless in such a situation?



bsms said:


> And when a horse gets wound up enough, your leg will NOT MAKE THEM disengage the rear. I'd kind of like to find a technique for anything that would MAKE a thousand pounds of muscle do what I want.


although true and i was silly to suggest otherwise, a one rein stop is the closest your ever going to get to such thing. and a one rein stop can be achieved equally as well bit or bitless, because as mentioned by someone else here, it doesn't matter what headgear your using, it's how well your horse has been trained to respond to the headgear that matters, not the headgear itsself.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I like options. One option I like is the pulley stop. On an excited but not bolting horse, it seems to work OK with a sidepull halter. My guess - and I do NOT know this - is that a pulley stop works by changing the position of the horse's head. It pull the chin in and changes the focus from 'safety' to the ground in front of the horse. It clicks the horse's mind out of 'running for safety' and focuses the mind on something else. If so, leverage at the mouth instead of halfway up the face would make it more effective.

Maybe I'm wrong, and it works by generating enough pain via the bit to cut thru their fear. I don't know.

And maybe sometimes is just doesn't matter. On the horse that bolted with its nose at my knee, what turned it was kicking the daylights on its right shoulder until it slowly turned left. Or maybe I was just lucky that day. I only have one data point, and that isn't enough to create a trend.

There are other reasons for using a bit. My gelding gets nervous bitless. I sometimes ride him without a bit and he's getting more confident, but he has more confidence that he knows what the rider wants when he's ridden with a bit. And a bit allows more precise, less ham-fisted signaling to the horse.



christopher said:


> ...it doesn't matter what headgear your using, it's how well your horse has been trained to respond to the headgear that matters, not the headgear itsself.


I don't entirely agree. Some gear allows clearer and stronger signals to be sent. I suspect spurs would, although I'm too green to be trusted using them. And the truth is that my horses are NOT highly trained. I'm told the gelding knows a lot that he's rusty on because I'm not using him to his capability. And I think the mare was trained for riding endurance races, and not much else. Good riders who have ridden both say the gelding knows a lot more about being ridden than the mare.

That is MY limitation on them. My fault, not theirs. We'll work through it. I would never recommend anyone follow my example and take up riding at 50 by buying excitable horses and just riding...but one takes life as it comes sometimes.

I believe in riding bitless. I believe in riding with a bit. Depends on the rider, the horse and the goal that day. What I reject is that people have been using bits for 2500 years because they were cruel and stupid. I think a lot of good horses are like my gelding - a bit gives them confidence that they know what their rider wants, so they like it. And if a bit makes them happier, why not?


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Bit, bitless, helmet, helmetless, parelli, parellilless (?!)

Always stirs up heated debate!

In the case of all three I think it depends on the horse, the handler and the situation.

Personally I am biased towards using bits as they work best for me. However, occasionally a situation arises where they are not in the best interests of the horse and I must reassess the situation.

For example, last year I broke in a QH with a mild parrot mouth. Small mouth and shallow palatte. I tried a snaffle, french link and he accepted them but I didn't get great results so I tried him in a bosal - amazing results. 

So whilst we are all human and have our own biases and preferances, it is also important to assess each situation objectively and try to get the best results for the horse, even if it means thinking outside our usual parameters. After all, the best results for the horse will ultimately be the best results for us also.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Anyone every considered training a horse to have a safe place? It is quite simple. You give them a cue in which they relax. Doe not matter what the cue or really how you do it. I do this with all my horses and it works well. Actually they have 2 one if I need them to keep moving like in the show ring and one if we can stop. I have yet to have a horse bolt after giving the cue. Even my very up reiners know these cues and settle right in.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Anyone every considered training a horse to have a safe place? It is quite simple. You give them a cue in which they relax. Doe not matter what the cue or really how you do it. I do this with all my horses and it works well. Actually they have 2 one if I need them to keep moving like in the show ring and one if we can stop. I have yet to have a horse bolt after giving the cue. Even my very up reiners know these cues and settle right in.


Actually no, I have never done this, keen to know more though! How do you go about training this and what is your cue? I must admit I use a half halt to settle an uppity horse but this isn't really a safe place as such, it purely alters their movement.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I would like to know this too Nrhareiner. That sounds like a very handy cue to have.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Each horse is a bit different. I wish I could remember where I first got all the info from. It was a reiner I know and I think it might have been the NRHA reiner did an article about it.

For the moving part it is quite simple. You give them a cue to relaxes. I simply train my horse to relax when I pick up on the reins. This helps is so many situations. To train this each horse is a bit different so I can not even really say exactly how I do it as each of my horses where a bit different and some even have a bit different cue. My stallion is not about the reins but my legs.

I also make sure that stopping is ALWAYS a safe place. Just about every time I stop my horse we sit for about 2 min give or take a bit. I want them to know that stopping means they get to rest and relax. By doing this when they get spooked or scared I just sit down and say whoa. They know that the stop means they can relax and are safe. This is quite easy to train and I have found works in many many situations. Even first scary trail rides. 

Also each one of my horses have a cue to drop their heads and relax. This works very well on lookie-loos. If they have a cue to drop their head and relax. Most of mine this a simple squeeze of my leg and they drop their head down when they are looking around for something to spook at I give them something easy and new to do and take their eye off the surroundings. Again works very well for all of mine and makes for a good parlor trick with friends.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> Anyone every considered training a horse to have a safe place? It is quite simple. You give them a cue in which they relax. Doe not matter what the cue or really how you do it. I do this with all my horses and it works well. Actually they have 2 one if I need them to keep moving like in the show ring and one if we can stop. I have yet to have a horse bolt after giving the cue. Even my very up reiners know these cues and settle right in.


i do use safe places as a psychology, when working with each of my horses on the ground/mounted and every day there's always one place i let the horse rest and eat grass (not so much rest, on a greenie we rest frequently as a reward to a correct response but it's the only place i ask the horse to lower it's head and eat grass) and surely enough whenever one jumps over a fence it can be found eatting grass in that same place, but not so much safe cues. i suppose if consistently did one thing immediately beofore taking them to their safe area then it would quickly become a cue to relax. in regards to using it for bolting horses, if it works for you that's alright, but i wouldn't advise it because the horse may associate that bolting = safe/rest place


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I think you are missing the point of a safe place. It is not a physical place but a way for the horse to relax and give to what you are asking. Again it has worked well for all mine over the years even young stallions who get a bit up set over the mares in the other pasture. 

Also I NEVER get off the horse at the same place I NEVER ride out of an arena and I NEVER let a horse eat grass under saddle on his back or not or with a bit in his mouth.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

if i associated the place with a cue then relaxation to the cue would be the resut, regardless of where we are in relation to the physical safe place.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Perhaps that is true. However I never set a single place for anything. It is consistently changing. 

Like I said I never stop at the same place I never get off at the same place I never ride out of the arena. So there is not physical place that is always the say. It is simple a cue they have. 

Like when I give them the cue to stop they know that means stop and stop now. Once they stop they are allowed to stand for several min and relax. SO if they start to do something I do not like I simple give them the cue to stop they do and do it now and they know that is a place to relax. However that is not always possible so there is also a cue that they will relax into so if they start to get upset when showing I give them that cue and they know it is ok and to relax and keep their attention on me and do as I ask.

Each horse is different as to the cue to some extent and how you get there. That is why I can not say do this then this then this and you will get this. Just does not work that way. I am sure there are some horses who will never get it. However I have yet to find one. I have yet to have a horse run off with me. Even a stallion.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Each horse is a bit different. I wish I could remember where I first got all the info from. It was a reiner I know and I think it might have been the NRHA reiner did an article about it.
> 
> For the moving part it is quite simple. You give them a cue to relaxes. I simply train my horse to relax when I pick up on the reins. This helps is so many situations. To train this each horse is a bit different so I can not even really say exactly how I do it as each of my horses where a bit different and some even have a bit different cue. My stallion is not about the reins but my legs.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the post. One of my goals to work on this month was/is a good stop - right away, regardless of what else is happening, and don't move. Your post makes a lot of sense, and I just finished an hour with Mia working on it. She seemed pretty amenable to the idea, and we did a lot of scratchin' & relaxin', followed by a lot of lickin' & chewin' from her.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I hear a lot of you saying that a trained horse should be able to wear any sort of head gear and be well controlled in any situation.
> In my opinion it depends on what the situation is and what your horse's temperament is. I will ride a well trained horse in an arena or a calm trail ride with a rope halter on or a bitless bridle. Even if that horse is a hot blood and fit for an endurance race. But I would be crazy to think it was safe to take the same horse out on the starting line of an endurance ride and have 30 horses taking off at once with the horse wearing only a rope halter. Either me or the horse is going to get hurt. So you can train a horse very well, but you can't necessarily train a horse for every situation they may face. Sometimes you have to have something that the horse can "hear" through tremendous amounts of distraction.


In my opinion I wouldn't call that horse fully trained for that situation. I have zero doubt that I could take my boy gameing in a rope halter - Trail riding/endurance riding in a halter.

Training is ALL about teaching the horse to respond to cues immediately, but also through distraction.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

bsms said:


> Thanks for the post. One of my goals to work on this month was/is a good stop - right away, regardless of what else is happening, and don't move. Your post makes a lot of sense, and I just finished an hour with Mia working on it. She seemed pretty amenable to the idea, and we did a lot of scratchin' & relaxin', followed by a lot of lickin' & chewin' from her.


The big thing when teaching a horse to stop and stop now is the standing after you stop. When I am working any of my horses regardless if they are finished proven show horses or young green horses. We stand more then we move. They need to under stand that standing is always a good thing and something to be sought after.


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## Raleigh (Feb 12, 2011)

My Arabian Gelding uses a Hackamore and while I haven't mounted him since I purchased and moved him to our new boarding facility, he did well with it when I rode him before I moved him. I am looking to replace the hackamore that I bought from his previous owner and saw a few bitless bridals on ebay that can be customized to your own specifications... either rope or leather. Might be worth a look. Its a hard decision.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Indeed nrha, it's amazing how many people don't understand that. So many people deal with horses that fidget and 'creep' when they are supposed to be still and think nothing of it, like that's normal. Just letting a young horse stand after a decent workout does wonders for their thinking ability :wink:.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Each horse is a bit different. I wish I could remember where I first got all the info from. It was a reiner I know and I think it might have been the NRHA reiner did an article about it.
> 
> For the moving part it is quite simple. You give them a cue to relaxes. I simply train my horse to relax when I pick up on the reins. This helps is so many situations. To train this each horse is a bit different so I can not even really say exactly how I do it as each of my horses where a bit different and some even have a bit different cue. My stallion is not about the reins but my legs.
> 
> ...


This is very interesting and thanks for the explanation. I am going to give it some thought and see how I can use something like this for my own benefit :wink:


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i assumed when safe spot was mentioned it was meant as an actual safe "spot"

but i wholeheartedly endorse this.

what i do is the same when teaching stopping, from a walk/trot/lope/gallop if theres any heaviness (not so much resistance as the horse has already been taught sensitivity too rein aids and this is rarely done on a first ride, just the horse not responding to the suggestive aids like a very light seat movement or vocal whoa), then with the reins as light as possible we stop and backup a few steps then rest for a short while. if there's a sudden and significant improvement then i'll even dismount while we rest, just to help the "that's good, leaving you alone now" psychology; which is an effective one.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

> Bosal (boz-al). This part around the horse's nose is most commonly made of braided rawhide, but it can be made of leather, horsehair or rope. Diameter of the bosal can vary from pencil size to broom handle size, and the bosal may vary in length and rigidity.


more specifically,


> rope... vary in length and rigidity


thus, a rope halter *is* a bosal bridle.

written by " B.F. Yeates, Texas A&M U. and Melvin Bradley, Department of Animal Sciences, U. of Missouri-Columbia"
Pre-Bit Hackamore Training @ Horse Tack Review
it also explains why i choose to start horses in the hackamore in the 1st paragraph. two reining is easy enough

just some clarification


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## Raleigh (Feb 12, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Raleigh (Feb 12, 2011)

Can you neck rein with a hackamore? Or do you have to keep split reins?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

everything you can do in a snaffle you can do in a hackamore. so yes you can both neck rein and direct rein in the hackamore.


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