# Cow Hopping Horse



## Shadow Puppet (Aug 15, 2011)

My horse cow hops on a regular basis and I have no clue how to stop it... She does it mostly if I get her to do something she doesn't want to do. I am terrified of my horse and that makes her worse. She had been vetted and checked out and she's not hurting. I am just going to say this now, I WILL NOT SELL THIS HORSE. I have a specail kind of movie romantic horse and rider bond with her she is my best friend and I will not sell her. But any tips on how to stop cow hopping would be great. Thanks


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hmmmn, I'm not terrified of my best friend.
Do you mean 'crow hopping'?
Sorry, I have no advice for you but good luck..


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## ShinaKonga (Jun 24, 2010)

My gelding is a tester, and has crow hopped with me quite a few times to see what he can get away with. I had a similar problem- I was deathly afraid of riding. My trainer/lesson giver that I lived with for a several months made me ride every day, and wouldn't let either me or Milo quit until we were both relaxed. In the beginning, those were some long lessons for the both of us :lol: Now if he crow hops, he gets a swift smack on the *** and spun in a tight circle, and it seems to be working for us.
Any further advice I can give you, though, is to find somebody to give you lessons, who can see you from the ground and coach you on training. It helped a lot for me.


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## OwnedByAlli (Nov 8, 2011)

just a quick question... What is crow hopping? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

OwnedByAlli said:


> just a quick question... What is crow hopping?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a kind of buck where they round their backs & do a small 4 legged jump usually while still moving forward. It's called crow hopping because it looks much like what a crow does on the ground.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

My first advice would be to become less terrified of your horse. If your terrified then you won't have the mental capacity to do anything but hang on. The other advice would be to forget about your disney movie bond and start treating this horse like a horse instead of a really bad best friend.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I thought crow hopping was NOT all fours off ground at once, but alternating front feet then back feet while moving forward. Not that the pattern of the unharmonious behaviour is the issue: 

I second what Kevin said, caveat that the horse isn't a "bad" best friend, he's just doing his horse thing, according to his innate "horsenality", & he will become a real partner to you when you gain savvy to be his real leader.

You're right to be scared of getting on him at this point; any teacher should be keeping you off him & having you gain skill & confidence on ground first! (you could get seriously hurt!) I recommend Parelli 7 Games groundwork dvd, for starters. Your horse will look at you with new, respectful & pleased eyes once you've mastered the 7 Games with him.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

*Don't drink the cool aid!!!*


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Start with ground work.. leading, lunging, etc. Get respect from your horse and get your confidence up. It's okay to be nervous but BREATHE and power through it.. once you get these games stopped, you and your horse will have much nicer rides. But the crow hopping is a game (so long as you ruled out pain) and you need to win at it.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Now, Kevin, do you think that this brand-new kid needs that, since you know darn well that she doesn't know what you're talking about?!

You'd recommend that she keep getting on this horse, from her description of her own fear & lack of skill to prevent his antics?

Your advice included no "how", Kevin. We're waiting for the "how".


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Okay, the first "how" is don't spend $1000 dollars on junk training gimmicks. The second "how" would be to get a gentle, quiet older horse that she can handle with less difficulty. Then she can get a riding instructor for herself and a trainer for her bff horse. 

I'll never figure out why the Parelli crowd always suggest the 7 games dvds. Why do you think a person with very little experience can learn to ride a horse and train it at the same time from a DVD series.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> My first advice would be to become less terrified of your horse. If your terrified then you won't have the mental capacity to do anything but hang on. The other advice would be to forget about your disney movie bond and start treating this horse like a horse instead of a really bad best friend.


Agree with this 10000%

Trust me, your horse does not see you as their "best friend."


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## THN (Oct 11, 2011)

kevinshorses said:


> My first advice would be to become less terrified of your horse. If your terrified then you won't have the mental capacity to do anything but hang on. The other advice would be to forget about your disney movie bond and start treating this horse like a horse instead of a really bad best friend.


Totally Agree! (gasp)

My suggestions is to do ground work with your horse and i honestly don't care what "method" you use. Use what works for you and your horse, but you need to establish yourself as dominant and squish any attempt to challenge that dominance. If you are fearful then your horse is obviously dominant. If you can't ride your horse without fear then you need to ride some other horses and gain confidence and learn to ride w/t/c/ee (walk/trot/canter/everything else). If a horse chooses to crow hop all the way around the arena you need to be able to say "ok, i like this gait lets keep going".

Long story short:
You fall he wins, you stay on you win. You gain dominance and always win he stops playing.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I agree with Kevin. If your human bff always greeted you with a punch in the stomach instead of a hug you'd dump them like the load of schyjt they are. Why are you tolerating this from your horse? If your horse is crow hopping all over Hades and half of Georgia with you on his back you do NOT have a 'Disney Movie Partnership' except in your dreams. 

If you won't sell the horse, then you need to get the upper hand quick. If he's crow hopping, he's got his head down. Everytime he drops his head for a bucking session, YANK it back up and beat his little butt until he quits. If you can't stick it, then get a trainer who can and will make him wish he'd never thought about bucking in the first place. Then take lessons on the horse so you learn how to keep him from walking all over you.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Wow, Kevin, your advice could add up to a far prettier penny than mine! 



kevinshorses said:


> 1.Okay, the first "how" is don't spend $1000 dollars on junk training gimmicks. 2.The second "how" would be to get a gentle, quiet older horse that she can handle with less difficulty. 3.Then she can get a riding instructor for herself and a 4.trainer for her bff horse.
> 
> I'll never figure out why the Parelli crowd always suggest the 7 games dvds. 5. Why do you think a person with very little experience can learn to ride a horse and train it at the same time from a DVD series.


1. I didn't ask her to spend anywhere near $1000, & certainly not on "gimmicks". She might be able to buy a used 7 Games video on ebay or forum like "It's About the Horse" where they have a merchandise thread, for a few bucks, yet even at full retail, 7 Games dvd isn't going to set you back much. I'll add, however, that you need a knotted halter (no flat web/leather) a yacht-braid 12' lead line, & a carrot stick OR reasonable fascimile (at less cost). I feel that anyone who can afford the upkeep on a horse can afford this equipment, so feel no twinge of conscience recommending them.

2. Getting a second horse may not be feasible, due to space/time/availability & financial constraints!

3. A riding instructor is going to eat up $ big-time, at price of most these days!

4. A separate trainer for the horse is likewise going to slim the wallet, aside from the fact that the_ owner_ needs to gain the skill for the horse, so off-to-the-trainer doesn't fix their relationship! The horse's innate horsenality won't change from going to a trainer; he'll have it ready & waiting for owner when he returns. 

5. The student learning 7 Games _isn't_ riding the horse; that's the entire point of it! Groundwork is always where one starts with a horse, lesson 1 for any student. Embellishments: You'll never get more respect in the saddle than you do on the ground, & it's safer on ground, for both horse & human, so start on ground. You get the leadership of the horse on the ground before you even think of mounting, yet before you swing a leg over, you ask permission of the horse to do so; it's politeness like that which will cause your horse to want to keep you in the saddle rather than dump you.

OP, you know your own financial & other constraints; I'm sure that you can decide what's best for you & horse with the suggestions given here. Good luck!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I have never ever asked a horse for permission to get on it. I can garentee any horse of mine would tell me to stick it where the sun dont shine and carry on grazing. 

Because I am boss I go where I like a touch what I want to and I jump on his back whenever the hell i please. 

I have a very well mannered horse who is well used to me randomly attacking him with clippers, doesnt bat an eyelid at me pulling hoods over his eyes, that i'm not scared to ride and that I can ride at any point I feel like. he will walk anywhere I tell him to, through the deepest of water and in the heaviest of traffic. He does so because I am boss end of discussion as far as he is concerned. What the boss says goes.

OP you need to be boss NOW! or you need to get someone in who will teach you how, train you and the horse and sort you both out,

No DVD in the world can teach you that, all it will do is teach you to wave a very expensive orange stick at a horse. Ignore the horsenality BS and the rest of the parelli waffle and get yourself a real trainer.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Oh i like you faye! Rofl


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Thankyou Dreamcatcher.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think she needs a 'reality check' and not a bunch of games to play. 

Her horse does not need a psychoanalyst or a label to call him. He does not need a 'best friend' but a leader to take charge before he hurts her. He just needs a competent leader.

He is spoiled and she cannot get the situation under control as long as she is 'terrified' of him.

I think her best solution would be to work with a qualified trainer. She does not know how horses think and respond. If she does not want this horse to become a rank bucking horse, the bad behavior has to be stopped. And Yes, she should learn how to instill good ground manners in this horse and how to become a good leader and how to be in charge of this horse, both on the ground and in the saddle. That sure cannot happen as long as she is afraid of him.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

One important tip- Always tell yourself_, "The ground isn't TOO far...It looks rather soft from this angle". :lol:_

I'm not much help, I try to avoid giving training advice over the internet. I'll leave that to Kevin, Srombs, Faye and a few others.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Northern said:


> *Groundwork is always where one starts with a horse,* lesson 1 for any student. Embellishments: You'll never get more respect in the saddle than you do on the ground, & it's safer on ground, for both horse & human, so start on ground.


There you go something that we should all be able to agree on whatever Kool Aid we are drinking:wink:



Northern said:


> before you swing a leg over, you ask permission of the horse to do so; it's politeness like that which will cause your horse to want to keep you in the saddle rather than dump you.


That's where we chose our own separate cups, I do not ask permission, I ask for acceptance, if I'm asking for my horse to carry me it's his job, not an optional extra. It makes as much sense as getting permission from your child to send it to school, it's not an option, they are just going.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

lacyloo said:


> One important tip- Always tell yourself_, "The ground isn't TOO far...It looks rather soft from this angle". :lol:_
> 
> I'm not much help, I try to avoid giving training advice over the internet. I'll leave that to Kevin, Srombs, Faye and a few others.


Lacyloo is vewwy, vewwy, shmart! When my advice is always soundly bashed on here, I'm at this point ready to quit myself! 

Poor OP, one last attempt at clarification for you: You can see that there are people who wouldn't dream of asking for permission to get on the horse, who want to be BOSS, & contrasted with that are the Parelli folks who do things like ask permission because they are interested in a PARTNERSHIP with the horse; the horse has 49% say-so, human has 51%. 

Pat Parelli says: "Anyone can MAKE a horse do something; can you cause him to WANT to?" 

Another way Pat says it: It's about the relationship between you & your horse, above all.

Good luck with your decision on that!


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Ignoring all of the games and natural horsemanship debate.... if you are nervous of your horse, you should ride other horses and gain your confidence back - there is no way you can deal with this issue while you are a bundle of nerves. 

There are warning signs before a buck or cow hop, if you can recognize them, you can then do something about it. 
As you said that your horse does this when you ask it to do something it doesn't want to, I would recommend round penning or lunging and driving the horse onto doing the things it dislikes, while you are riding something else to get your confidence back.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

out of curiosity northern, how does a horse give you permission to mount? that's not the most natural gesture for a horse to make.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

OP, do you ever lunge your horse before riding? My mare tends to crowhop and/or buck when I don't lunge her before riding (since I only have time to ride once a week, if not less) because she's just got quite a bit of pent up energy. 



Northern said:


> When my advice is always soundly bashed on here, I'm at this point ready to quit myself!


You know, you aren't required to be here. There are plenty of other internet forums you are free to join if you are unhappy here.


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

I hate to say this is advice... As I feel unqualified to give it. It is more like my personal perspective on your situation that may or may not help you. I have a horse that was previously owned by a lady who was really into parelli. He liked to crow hop, because as soon as he did it she would get scared and get off. He had beautiful lunging skills, and impeccable ground manners. In mt experience once a horse has been positively reinforced for bad behavior (example- end of lesson in response to crow hopping) no amount of groundwork will fix the problem. You just have to stick it out, pull the head up, and make him work harder if he wants to act a fool. I don't know much about parelli, And i think it is foolish to autimatically write of someone you disagree with. I know horses DO have different temperaments, the word horsinality makes me giggle though. I would have to know more about him to give an opinion on him. In defense of Northern I've got a horse who i believe truly lives to be ridden, and would rather be out running the hills with me, than grazing. My reason for this assumption is that when i borded on a 40 acre pasture, he would come running when he spotted my car. He wasent just accepting of the fact i wanted to ride. In all aperances he seemed excited to see me, excited to be tacked up, and excited the whole length of the ride. He often seemed reluctant to turn around on the trail when it was time to head back (except if it was nearing dinner time ha ha) I don't know how one would ask permission to mount, and I believe that is quite a bit sugarcoated. I don't believe that an unbroken horse would ever give that. I would say that it is more like trusting you as the leader, and understing that nothing they are going to do outside of your bidding will be tolerated, or get them out of work. After accepting this I think a horse can make a wonderful separate thinking "partner" if you will. A relationship where you are in charge, but you are willing to listen to his opinion (stopping for a rattlesnake in the road would be my example of this). My horse has gotten me out of a few pickles. I am happy that he has a mind of his own. That is why i love horses, and not dirtbikes 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Eventhough I don't agree with Parelli, I'm not going to bash Northern. That's her choice and opinion. 

Christabelle - Are we twins? You said pretty much exactly what I was going to say. I have a similar horse that will crow hop if she doesn't get her way. Her previous owner quit on her when she acted up. She's been that way much of her 16 years. Now I have to undo that.

Our horses do the same as your horse, come and greet us at the gate. They almost fight to get out the gate to be rode. That's from the relationship that we've built with them, not just being a boss, leader, etc.

To the OP - When your horse crow hops, she is throwing a temper tantrum, as long as what you are asking her to do she already knows how. If you are teaching her something new, she does it from frustration. Either way, remain calm and relaxed. If you are tense, she can feel it and may make her feel confined form your legs tightening up on her sides. Pull one rein and make her circle. It's not easy for them to buck or crow hop with their head to the side and moving forward. Make her circle the other direction too. Get her to understand that her tantrums will turn into workouts. Get her stop and ask again what she threw her tantrum about. Be ready for her to explode at first when you make her work. If you are consistent with this, each of her tantrums will get less and less.

Think of it like a child throwing a tantrum at the store. The child that gets their way will keep throwing a tantrum whenever they don't get their way. Some parents give in so the child quits making a scene. The ones that discipline the child, nip it in the bud and the child quits.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

I can't tell you not to be afraid, but you do have to push past your fear.
When I first got my gelding 16 yrs ago, he was a certified, bonafied crow hopper. Whenever I asked him to lope, he would take about 4 strides, then put his head down and start hopping. He would bounce me off Every time, lol.
So I would get up off the ground, catch his rein, and make myself get back on. I would just wait until my legs stopped shaking, then I would focus on Breathing. I wouldnt necessarily ask him to lope again right away, but we would certainly pick up a lot of trotting.
My advantage I think was that I at least had some knowledge of Why my horse was crow hopping. The horse was young and Very green, and his previous owner would literally just smack him on the *** to get him to race down the dirt (stone) roads. So I figured the horse equated running with over excitement and fear. I had to convince him that even though we may be moving fast, we still had to be mentally calm and relaxed.
So I would just talk to him calmly as we did our transitions from walk to trot to lope, kept up a steady flow of soothing words, and made sure I did not tense up my body or legs, even if my heart was starting to race.
And ya know what? The soothing tone of voice kept ME calm as well, and I was able to relay that to the horse.
So it would be helpful for you to find out why your horse is misbehaving. I think I was lucky, my horse is generally very good natured, and never had any barn/buddy sour issues which I think would be harder to fix.
If he is crowhopping just cause he is being a jerk and doesnt want to work, you are going to have to get tough with him.


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## kait18 (Oct 11, 2011)

i think most of this problem is coming from your horse testing you and getting away with it the first time. which is causing him to still do it because he nows he can get away with it. and now that you are scared, it is making things worse. 
you have options whether you want to spend the time and money is up to you. 
1. get a trainer who will help both you and your horse
2. try and overcome your fear and ride him
3. get rid of horse and get one more suitable to your level of ability 

either way none of this will help if you don't get over the fear its the biggest thing holding you back. but as to solve the problem by yourself i have no idea.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Think about how you would treat a school ground bully. Eventually you would have to fight back or continue to be bullied. Your horse is bullying you and you either have to "fight back" or accept that one day this horse will really hurt you. My suggestion is that you use a riding crop or stout stick about 30" long and deliver a hard smack just behind your leg the next time she bucks. She may scoot forward in surprise so don't yank on the reins on you will confuse her. Carry the crop for the next dozen rides just so she knows what can happen. Do not just give a weak tap as it will be ineffective. Don't think she won't love you if you give her a smack because she doesn't love you anyway, but you will gain some respect.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Poseidon said:


> ...You know, you aren't required to be here. There are plenty of other internet forums you are free to join if you are unhappy here.


 Ewww!:shock:



Saddlebag said:


> Think about how you would treat a school ground bully..


 I must say that a horse who crow hops isn't always even trying to dump the rider, but rather is just "feeling her oats", expressing exuberance/playfulness. I knew a mare who'd crow hop like that occasionally, when I was a kid. Her riders'd just laugh & the hops were easy to sit. The difference is that OP said that the crow hopping fills her with apprehension, so then the horse picks up on that, regardless of its original intent in hopping, & then "takes over", because somebody's got to be the leader in horseland.

I thank those who gave me "likes"!

Oh, yes: how to ask permission to mount the horse: You say, "May I have permission to mount you?" Horse'll often answer, "Climb aboard!"

Seriously, (& as I said, one must have the horse's respect first "on the ground"), one squares off the horse's feet so he's stable, gathers rein properly in the mane, lifts off, leans torso over horse & strokes opposite shoulder, checking his eye & body tension during, & when horse's eye & bodily relaxation invite you to, you then swing your leg over. Hope that helps! 

Once you tune into it, you can see how a horse may not be ready to be mounted, & it's just rude to ignore those signals, & naturally very destructive to the rapport that you want with him.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Northern said:


> Oh, yes: how to ask permission to mount the horse: You say, "May I have permission to mount you?" Horse'll often answer, "Climb aboard!"
> 
> Seriously, (& as I said, one must have the horse's respect first "on the ground"), one squares off the horse's feet so he's stable, gathers rein properly in the mane, lifts off, leans torso over horse & strokes opposite shoulder, checking his eye & body tension during, & when horse's eye & bodily relaxation invite you to, you then swing your leg over. Hope that helps!
> 
> Once you tune into it, you can see how a horse may not be ready to be mounted, & it's just rude to ignore those signals, & naturally very destructive to the rapport that you want with him.


Count me in the group of people who tell their horse it is being ridden. There is nothing about this expression:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/zacalsam/Abby/downsized_1112111136.jpg
that says "Yes, please ride me!" But you know what? We're going to ride and she's going to deal with it. After we get going, she's chewing and is entirely willing to work. I'm not going to wait around until she decides she feels like doing something.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Why the hell would I ask?
I have my horses respect and obedience and in exchange he is protected, cosseted, rugged up to the eyeballs, fed and groomed, his every need is catered for and he never wants for anything. I will go hungry before he does!

I have a very good relationship with him, this pony will walk past anything because he trusts me. He comes galloping to the gate to greet me, I always get a whinny in the morning. Today I mounted him in the pitch black because the yard lights were not working, I rode him round to the school past diggers, cows and geese with only moon light to see by and then I rode into the school and switched the lights on whilst on him. He has never been in a flood lit school, nor has he ever been ridden in the pitch black. But he trusts me and because I said it was safe he went. We got some beautiful work and he was working with me not against me.
That is how a relationship with a horse should be. You are boss, you are the smarter animal, you know the crisp packet monster isnt going to suddenly start eating ponies therefore if you say it is nothing to be worried about then they don't worry.

Just to make it clear my pony loads first time every time, he will happily stand on tarpaulins, wear a plastic sack over his back, I can hang plastic bags from his ears. The first time I took clippers anywhere near him he had a full clip out and the worst he did was try to eat the clippers whilst they were running. He will stand on boxes, walk chest deep into water, through ditches and hedges without flinching. All this and he is only 4 yrs old.

Never had any parelli anywhere near him!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

'Ask permission' implies that I'll go away if the horse says no. Yeah, fat lot of good THAT'S going to do him! :rofl:

If there's something wrong physically or he's in pain because of an illfitting piece of tack, I'll take care of it. Him being a prima donna and deciding he just doesn't _want_ to work doesn't cut it.

I don't want to work either, yet I get my carcass out of bed in the morning and haul myself to a job so I can feed and house my horses. 

This 'ask permission' garbage is just another way for timid, middle aged women to say they CAN'T ride today, because Pookie isn't in the mood. Couldn't_ possibly_ be because they're afraid of the animal. No, it's all about lurve, respect, and a majickal bond!!!! 

Pookie will let them know when they get it right, and then they will ride off into the sunset together, farting rainbows in perfect harmony. ;-)


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## ShinaKonga (Jun 24, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> 'Ask permission' implies that I'll go away if the horse says no. Yeah, fat lot of good THAT'S going to do him! :rofl:
> 
> If there's something wrong physically or he's in pain because of an illfitting piece of tack, I'll take care of it. Him being a prima donna and deciding he just doesn't _want_ to work doesn't cut it.
> 
> ...


Stop being amazing. I'm going to die laughing over here. :lol:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ROFL, we'll all be drinking the free Bubble Up and eating that Rainbow Stew...and farting rainbows and singing leprachauns!


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

OP I'm sure is quite clear that there are the BOSS human & the PARTNER human groups, now, so I'll just have some fun:


Poseidon said:


> Count me in the group of people who tell their horse it is being ridden. There is nothing about this expression:
> http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y50/zacalsam/Abby/downsized_1112111136.jpg
> that says "Yes, please ride me!"...


 Wow, you got THAT right! :-(



faye said:


> ...I have a very good relationship with him, this pony will walk past anything because he trusts me...
> Never had any parelli anywhere near him!


 faye, you've never used a carrot stick, but you've implemented PNH principles, because good horsemanship is not absolutely reliant upon carrot sticks, but much more reliant upon universal principles like Love, Language, & Leadership.



Speed Racer said:


> 'Ask permission' implies that I'll go away if the horse says no.
> 
> No, it means that you'll make the effort to discover why the horse doesn't want you on his back, because the fact that he doesn't want you on his back shows that something's amiss in the relationship.
> 
> ...


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

Northern said:


> Yes, Pat Parelli is nothing but a timid, middle-aged woman!


No, Pat Parelli is a guy who obviously doesn't practice what he preaches..... I don't think the colt that dumped him, gave him permission to mount! :lol:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)




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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

OMG that pink panther is so CUTE!

Troubador gave him permission to mount, just not to keep the lead too tight, for that Spin City routine!


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Shadow Puppet said:


> My horse cow hops on a regular basis and I have no clue how to stop it... She does it mostly if I get her to do something she doesn't want to do. I am terrified of my horse and that makes her worse. She had been vetted and checked out and she's not hurting. I am just going to say this now, I WILL NOT SELL THIS HORSE. I have a specail kind of movie romantic horse and rider bond with her she is my best friend and I will not sell her. But any tips on how to stop cow hopping would be great. Thanks


Hi Shadow Puppet and welcome to the forum! 

In relation to the crow hopping, I suspect that she crow hops because you are afraid and you are afraid because she crow hops. Don't feel bad, many horse/rider combos find themselves in this type of pickle from time to time.

So what to do?

In simple terms, keep her moving forward. There are many techniques for this and if you would like to hear 1000 different ways of causing a horse to move forwards, just ask as we'll all gladly comply :lol:

The real issue I believe is actually your fear, this is what will prevent you from progressing as a team. There's an old saying I really identify with: "Only two emotions belong in the saddle; one is patience and the other is a sense of humour."

Patience: Always, every day, no matter what. 

Sense of humour comes in to play in EXACTLY your situation. When she crow hops, don't let it scare you or intimidate you in any way. If anything, have a little inward chuckle and keep moving. It helps release the tension without becoming fearful. I do it whenever a horse misbehaves, no matter how ugly their behaviour I will laugh and think "oh how funny, he just bucked 8 foot clear in the air....press on..."


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Northern said:


> Yes, Pat Parelli is nothing but a timid, middle-aged woman!


Nope, but he's a charlatan who preys upon newbies who don't know any better, and timid, middle-aged women whose horses have the upper hand and KEEP it because of this silly 'ask permission' garbage. :?


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> Nope, but he's a charlatan who preys upon newbies who don't know any better, and timid, middle-aged women whose horses have the upper hand and KEEP it because of this silly 'ask permission' garbage. :?


I'd say that those who make the claims in this quote are abysmally unfair to Pat. He's a charlatan? 

dictionary says: a person making usually showy pretenses to knowledge or ability: FRAUD, FAKER. Pat is not a horseman?

He preys upon? His whole teaching is about the human ceasing to be a predator, to either horse or human.

The age thing: program has plenty of kids, on up; there's no target group whatsoever, so your claim that he targets timid middle-aged women is bogus.

We've already discussed whether asking permission to mount is silly or just polite/relational; OP must experience what works best, between her & her horse. 

OP, welcome to the horse world today: the virulent Parelli bashers, of whom there are scores, then the kool-aiders (those who willingly blind themselves to the fact that Pat & Linda, being mere mortals, have/can/may in future err/be wrong/mess up.), then those who retain their critical faculties, proceed with caution with their horses, & take from the program what's proved to work/benefit the horses, as far as their present experience shows. If you want, pm me & I'll give you the online name of someone on another board who is a sterling example of one who retains critical faculties yet uses Parelli as foundation program, to great success.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

It is indeed a wonderful world of horses, same as there is a wonderful world of people in general.

There are a lot of us, but which I mean people somewhat like myself, who try out lots of things, we are open minded and like to see what works and what doesn't.

There are those who belong to cult like factions of the horse world, somewhat like the religious fundamentalists of the world, who genuinely believe that that they are following the one true path to horsemanship, and will not hear one bad word against their particular Guru.

There are those who are against any sort of 'packaged horsemanship' program, the atheists of the horse world.

Good luck to you as you read your way through the varying ideas and concepts, I hope you find the right way for both you and your horse.

My personal recommendation, first, a person to work with in real life who you trust, my trainer has me doing things I never thought possible. Second, a large pair of Big Girls Panties, because sometimes you just have to pull them on and get on with it. :wink:


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

A large pair of panties? Hey, they don't have to be old lady; even a Big Girl thong'd do!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

Northern said:


> OP, welcome to the horse world today: the virulent Parelli bashers, of whom there are scores, then the kool-aiders (those who willingly blind themselves to the fact that Pat & Linda, being mere mortals, have/can/may in future err/be wrong/mess up.), then those who retain their critical faculties, proceed with caution with their horses, & take from the program what's proved to work/benefit the horses, as far as their present experience shows. If you want, pm me & I'll give you the online name of someone on another board who is a sterling example of one who retains critical faculties yet uses Parelli as foundation program, to great success.


i full agree with that.

though i wish for you to prove that horses have a concept of consent/permission/authorization and politeness.

and if by relationship you mean friendship, whether or not horses actually have an understanding of friendship would also be worth proving. but if by relationship you mean the true definition, then it's absolutely impossible NOT to "put the relationship first" in every interaction you have with your horse.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I have to say I agree with SR, GH, Christopher, etc.
If I asked any of the horses I've ridden permission to mount, I'd be told to shove it. As soon as I get on and let Lucky know we're working, she's more than willing. As soon as I got on and let Fancy know I wasn't a rider that would deal with her stupid bucking/crowhopping/headtossing stubbornness, she'd work beautifully and walk anywhere I pointed her. As soon as I got on Dude..well, I can't really use him as the "as soon as I got on" because it took multiple rides before he caught on that I'd take care of him as long as he listened, or I'd make him very uncomfortable.

I qbsolutely love working with Lucky because we do work as partners, but I'm still the boss. If I left a horse I wanted to ride (or train and sell to someone) alone until they "gave me permission", I'd have the horse still being left alone until the day they died.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shadow Puppet (Aug 15, 2011)

> Sense of humour comes in to play in EXACTLY your situation. When she crow hops, don't let it scare you or intimidate you in any way. If anything, have a little inward chuckle and keep moving. It helps release the tension without becoming fearful. I do it whenever a horse misbehaves, no matter how ugly their behaviour I will laugh and think "oh how funny, he just bucked 8 foot clear in the air....press on..."


The only thing that prevents me from doing exactly this is that she crow? hops until I can't possibly stay on any longer. I mean I have a good seat but she does it so violently almost like a rodeo would...actually quite like that.....


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Shadow Puppet said:


> The only thing that prevents me from doing exactly this is that she crow? hops until I can't possibly stay on any longer. I mean I have a good seat but she does it so violently almost like a rodeo would...actually quite like that.....


Sure, and I didn't mean to make light of your situation in any way. In terms of stopping her from crow hopping once she has already started, heels down, sit deep in the saddle, shoulders back, head up, strong core and drive her forwards, keeping her head from dropping too low.

In relation to WHY she crow hops, well, it could be any number of reasons.

The last part was to help give you the _confidence_ to ride out the crow hopping, which is 95% of the battle :wink:


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I forgot the important part (sorry for the double post) :shock:

In addition to this:



sarahver said:


> Sure, and I didn't mean to make light of your situation in any way. In terms of stopping her from crow hopping once she has already started, heels down, sit deep in the saddle, shoulders back, head up, strong core and drive her forwards, keeping her head from dropping too low.


Keep her straight and drive her forwards. Crow hopping is hard work so give her the option: Forwards and nicely or forwards and crowhopping. Her choice.

To be honest, if physical problems have been ruled out then I truly believe she is reacting to apprehension on your behalf, either because 

a.) She senses your fear and in turn becomes fearful which manifests as her trying to ditch you in order to fend for herself, or,

b.) She senses your fear and is taking advantage of you.

Either way if you take control of the situation, be a strong rider and show her that you are NOT fearful, this issue will resolve itself.

Good luck.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow, I would love to send old Pokey up to Northern just to see what she'd do with him. It wouldn't matter how much groundwork or "friendly games" you played with him, his answer to your "asking permission" would always be:

"HA...buzz off lady, I don't like you, I'll _never_ like you, and if you keep trying to be my friend, I _WILL_ hurt you."

I'm sure he would be quite content to spend the rest of his life eating his fill, taking what he wanted, and repeating "no" every time he saw a human.

On the other hand, whenever he says "no" to me and I say " Oh, yes you _will_", he immediately says " Okey-dokey then, lets get this done".

Hmmm :think:

Anyway, to the OP, I agree with others that said you will never be able to control the horse until you first get control of yourself by ridding yourself of fear. That is something that is very difficult to do on your own...maybe even impossible for some people. If you can find a trainer to work with both you and the horse, I think you'd be surprised at how much you can achieve with a firm, steady hand guiding you.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

First, welcome to the forum! As you can see there are infinite opinions when it comes to horse training. 

If you are comfortable enough, dig deep and ride her out. Don't give her a break until she quits crow hopping and moves on without fuss. When she does, then let her have a break and relax. Wash, rinse, repeat. It usually doesn't take long for them to figure out behaving is the path of least resistance (work). If you don't feel confident to do so, seek outside help. Good luck with her! 



Golden Horse said:


> There are those who are against any sort of 'packaged horsemanship' program, the atheists of the horse world.


GH, I love this! I think that might be me....


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

It is also a well-known fact in cowboy circles that if you cuss vibrantly and enthusiastically you will ride better. Seriously though, if you get a little mad you might forget to be scared.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

smrobs said:


> I'm sure he would be quite content to spend the rest of his life eating his fill, taking what he wanted, and repeating "no" every time he saw a human.
> 
> On the other hand, whenever he says "no" to me and I say " Oh, yes you _will_", he immediately says " Okey-dokey then, lets get this done".


This is exactly how Abby feels about me, that I am a complete inconvenience to her life of doing nothing all day. However, when she's all saddled and ready to go, she's fine. 


Kevin, you should hear the things I say when Abby's being ridiculous. You'd think she's being ridden by a sailor. :lol:


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## ShinaKonga (Jun 24, 2010)

Poseidon said:


> This is exactly how Abby feels about me, that I am a complete inconvenience to her life of doing nothing all day. However, when she's all saddled and ready to go, she's fine.
> 
> 
> Kevin, you should hear the things I say when Abby's being ridiculous. You'd think she's being ridden by a sailor. :lol:


If I drop the f bomb while dealing with my gelding, he gets very sullen and shy, as if to say, 'Oh, Sister said the word... shes mad now... I better pay attention!'

I also, when learning to lunge, used to hit myself with the whip a lot, causing me to shout 'Holy $%!#!" on many occasion. So much, in fact, that Milo would find this an acceptable command for 'whoa', since I would be too busy nursing a whipping wound to get after him. Needless to say, I'm a little better now :lol:


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

smrobs, don't present it as a foregone conclusion that I couldn't get Pokey to like me & welcome me onto his back.

OP, it's starting to get redundant: you've got the "just stay on" group & you've got the groundwork to earn respect (& hone your skill thus confidence) & have that translate into the saddle group (or is that just a "group" of one? )

Ask yourself if you want to continue getting on & getting thrown, with its attendant risk of injury, AND stronger belief in the horse's mind each time he succeeds that it's got a winning strategy, AND its attendant damage to your self-confidence. 

Insanity is doing something that doesn't work over & over while expecting it to miraculously start to work.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

Shadow Puppet said:


> The only thing that prevents me from doing exactly this is that she crow? hops until I can't possibly stay on any longer. I mean I have a good seat but she does it so violently almost like a rodeo would...actually quite like that.....



Does anyone else immediately think that maybe this isn't crow hopping but all out bucking fits? BIG difference in my opinion.


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## ShinaKonga (Jun 24, 2010)

Lakotababii said:


> Does anyone else immediately think that maybe this isn't crow hopping but all out bucking fits? BIG difference in my opinion.


I was thinking so... Most the crow hops I've experienced I can ride out, and I'm a beginner. :\ But that doesn't mean its not possible, I suppose. Giving the benefit of a doubt here.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Shadow Puppet said:


> My horse cow hops on a regular basis and I have no clue how to stop it... She does it mostly if I get her to do something she doesn't want to do. I am terrified of my horse and that makes her worse. She had been vetted and checked out and she's not hurting. I am just going to say this now, I WILL NOT SELL THIS HORSE. I have a specail kind of movie romantic horse and rider bond with her she is my best friend and I will not sell her. But any tips on how to stop cow hopping would be great. Thanks


Let go of her face.

Seriously.

Horses that start with crow hops escalate to full bucking fits when the rider anticipates the crow hop. As soon as the horse moves forward, rider grabs face - yet kicks or leaves their leg on. Horse has no choice but to go - up.

Shadow Puppet - if you have a contained area to work in and a trainer or friend that can spot for you, (a video even better) I strongly feel you'll see the disconnect.

Good luck!


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Are you riding in a western saddle so you can hold on when you get scared? Ever tried big girl cotton panties, I love em!
Without a video demonstrating the episodes it's hard to tell if she's crow hopping or full out bucking her *** off, you included. I'm with the people who say dig in and move her on, make it hard for her to do this kind of insanity. No please and thank you, just get your tail moving or else! I'm not crazy about crops unless I have a horse backing up on me unwilling to move out, especially from a barn, then they get a few "taps". Make sure you are easy on the reins and cue her hard with your legs and say "dammit move out". Sometimes that boosts confidence for you, I just love to cuss at problems. 
I would ride a few dead heads for a bit, it will help you identify the precursors of her episodes quickly. Also get a trainer or really good friend rider to watch you and critique your riding. A good one will boost your confidence and sometimes empower you to take hold and rock it out. Kinda embarissing to get thrown in front of others!

Does she do this with other riders? If you can't work it out get a new horse, don't keep being miserable and paying for one you don't enjoy. TRUST ME you will develop the rainbow farting disney relationship in a far deeper capacity with a horse you can trust.


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## Samstead (Dec 13, 2011)

Never ha this happen. Had a horse buck though and I just stayed calm even when ended up on the ground. Your horse will panic/freakout if you do.


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## jackvance (Oct 22, 2009)

*Crow hopping*

US in Equus
Total words 103,865
81 Illustrations 
Author: Jack Vance

Copyright 2001

Why Horses Buck?
I think you will find your resolution in these writings. 
The professional rodeo bucking horse that is a superior athlete, good at his work and likes it, is what every rough stock breeder is trying to breed for. The rough stock rodeo rider hopes he will draw that kind of bucking horse in the competition and will be able to stay on his back for 8 seconds.
Although horses in general buck out of fear, anger, pain, belligerence, and fun, I do not think the professional bucking horse bucks out of fear or pain. I think their bucking is the reaction to what they feel is a nuisance, and they become angry and belligerent at it. (We all have had a nuisance in our lives at one time or another.) To some horses, the speed, power, and flight of the bucking may trigger innate emotions, often called on in the wild to maintain survival, which may incite them to buck harder. The cowboy rolling his spurs on his shoulders is not something to sooth him, but to incite him. 
I think some professional bucking horses, feels the flank strap is a nuisance as well is the cowboy. L think they find the bucking exhilarating and fun, so they do what they do best. 
The rodeo horse bucks because the flank strap is a stimulus that incites him to buck. It is a stimulus that, on a daily basis, seldom occurs, and is not tolerated. Place a rider on his back, and that is another stimulus that seldom occurs and, again, is not tolerated.
This inconsistent pattern of bucking competition does not allow the horse time to become familiar with and desensitized to the sensations of the two stimuli and the circumstance. 
In the first place, the horse does not want or like the sensations of a flank strap on him or the rider on his back. Therefore, he bucks to get rid of it. The horse owner wants the horse to buck the rider off quickly, like in under 8 seconds. The rider wants off the horse also, but only after 8 seconds.
The rider who stays on a horse for more than 8 seconds are sometimes rewarded with an equine limo ride to expedite their safe departure from the horse’s back, and other amenities such as prize money.
When the cowboy is off the horse’s back, whether he is picked up by one of the pick-up men, (equine limo driver), or bucked off, the horse often continues to buck because the flank strap (stimulus) is still on. One of the remaining pick-up men ride alongside the bucking horse, pulling the release on the flank strap so it comes off. The horse thinks, Aha! I knew I could get rid of that thing and he quits bucking.
This is training, and each time this lesson occurs, the horse is learning through repetition that bucking is the resolution to what is bothering him. The horse owner is happy, the horse is happy, and the rider is happy, if he stayed on for 8 seconds.
The truth is if the rider was not bound by P.R.C.A rules, there are some rough stock riders that are good enough to ride the horse until it is quits bucking. If each time the horse is ridden, the rider was permitted to stay on; the horse would learn bucking is not getting him what he wants, which is the rider off his back. Therefore, the horse, being efficient with his energy, is not going to waste it on activity that does not benefit him, so he would quit bucking. This would ruin the horse for rodeo sport.
I would think a good bucking horse would buck again once rested. This theory is not set in stone for all horses. Some will buck every time you get on them, they just do not want or like us on their back. 
Some domestic horses buck when they are first turned out after being up in a stall overnight or for long periods. This is sheer joy, expressed with sheer energy.
They also buck from fear of what they do not understand, and anger brought on by fear or pain. If I remove Pain, Fear, and Anger, through good stewardship and training, most horses will not buck after the initial familiarizing and desensitizing period.
This bucking conditioning of rodeo horses is just the opposite of what we as riding/driving horse trainers want from the horse. We want the horse comfortable, trusting, quiet, and confident in our company.
End: Bucking horses are for the Professionals:


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

I know it's talked about a bit earlier in the thread, but I just wanted to mention that I at one point fell for that Parelli junk. Went and saw him at a clinic and have hated it ever since. I kinda feel stupid for purchasing some of his merchandise...but luckily it wasn't much haha.

My opinion quickly changed when he didn't teach even one dang thing at his clinic. It was more or less "This is my horse Fanciful Unicorn Chocolate Kisses Who Farts Rainbows, watch me dance with her!" and then he'd play music and run around with the horse for 20 minutes. -facepalm-

Then his "problem horse" section came up. He tried this awkward thing with a rope wrapped around the horse which ended with him being drug around the area cause he was standing in the coiled rope pile and the horse crashing into panels. He then gave up and put the horse away. He gave up himself and left the arena limping and left his wife in charge. Also the supposed "bad trailer loading horse" was brought in. The lady listed off every bad horse behavior in the book with this horse (spooky, deathly afraid of people, aggressive, etc) even though the entire time he stood quietly in this giant indoor area with tons of clapping people. Not to mention he loaded quietly the first try. -more facepalm- 

I've seen Clinton Anderson twice, and he was amazing. Even if you don't like Anderson...he's a million times better than Parelli. Don't know why I ever wasted my time with him.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^"Like" times 1000.


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## Catdog88 (Oct 3, 2011)

He does so because I am boss end of discussion ...

My trainer told me once "that I can consider the horses opinion once it grows thumbs and starts using tools" . That put everything in perspective for me real quick!!


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## Catdog88 (Oct 3, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There are a lot of times I consider the horse's opinion. I may overrule it, but I consider it. If I've established, over time, that the horse is a reasonably willing horse, then discomfort or rebellion can be signs of pain or that something is wrong. That is how my Arabian taught me that FQHB saddles have bars that are too long and dig in her loin, or that my cues were inconsistent and confusing her.

Listening to your horse is good horsemanship, IMHO. Letting the horse decide what to do is not.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

That's exactly right. For the first while I ride a horse, it's what I want, when I want it...BUT, I am very careful to avoid any situations that may be too much for the horse to handle. That way, they just never really learn how to "refuse".

After the initial breaking in stage, I have a pretty good feel for what they are willing to do and why they might balk, then I _consider_ their opinion. It's still my final decision, but I do allow them to give me input about the situation.

There has been several times in my life when a good horse telling me "Eeh, boss, I'm not sure going that way is a good idea" has saved my bacon. Even more times when I hear them say that and ignore it and push on, only to regret it greatly soon after :lol:.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

Read my signature... Enough said!


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## Catdog88 (Oct 3, 2011)

There has been several times in my life when a good horse telling me "Eeh, boss, I'm not sure going that way is a good idea" has saved my bacon. Even more times when I hear them say that and ignore it and push on, only to regret it greatly soon after .

Good point guys! Smrobs...I love reading your posts they are always full of wisdom and humor...it makes learning that much more enjoyable  
Thanks again everyone for sharing your experiences!!


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