# Better for the horse: Hunters or Dressage



## Labrador (Jul 31, 2013)

I am currently between trainers/stables and riding with both a hunter/jumper trainer and a dressage trainer. I have noticed firsthand what I think we all know: there exists a good deal of animosity between these disciplines. Of course, I don't think this is exclusive to dressage and H/J, nor is it the truth for all trainers and riders. It just seems that in general H/J people don't care for dressage and dressage people don't care for H/J. 

My questions comes from my H/J trainer who explained to me that the two main "styles" of riding are "centered seat riding"(dressage) and a "forward seat riding" (H/J). My H/J trainer claims that forward seat is better for the horse because, for the most part, the rider is off of the horse's back, whether they are in half-seat, two-point, or just riding with a "light" seat. Dressage riders, he says, pound their seats into their horses backs and restrict them from moving freely and fully.

So the question becomes, what do you think is better for the horse, both in terms of pressure on the back and as a discipline overall- hunters or dressage?

Also, let's keep it civil....I don't want to start a H/J or dressage-bashing thread! I'm only curious about the welfare of the horse.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Trail riding.


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

I started learning at a H/J barn. The seat and positioning felt unnatural to me and I was always curious about dressage. I fell in love with the discipline in my first lesson. I'm not the one to explain this, but neither discipline is about pressure on the back and both disciplines, once reached a certain level, can be physically demanding on a horse. My trainer's main focus is dressage, but is also heavily involved in eventing. She believes that dressage establishes a good foundation of balance and communication for those that want to go into eventing and jumping. I think hunter is a different thing altogether, but I may be wrong.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

The Hunter/Jumper people at my barn also now ALL do dressage, even if it is Prix Caprilli classes, there is no friction between those of us who just to dressage, either western or traditional, and those who like popping over fences.

Better for the horse, done badly either are bad, done well neither are. There are so many variables, half seat or two point, but constant concussion from landing over fences.....or working on the flat with over eager person who thinks that over bent is collection and has a breathing compromised horse.

In the debate, lets not forget the mental attitude of the horse, some LOVE to jump, I sold a mare, the trainer who was advising the family asked "does she jump?" My answer had to be, "No idea, never tried her, but no physical reason why she shouldn't" Turned out she LOVED to jump, would never have known that she would be such a natural, but she hates dressage...Some don't like jumping, the horse I show leased this year has entered jumpers, but people didn't recognize him in the dressage ring, he just showed off in there.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When a forward style of riding and getting off the horse's back was adopted by jockeys in the 1890s, times improved on average by 6%. In the over 100 years since, average times have only improved by 1%, so it seems reasonable that an 'off the back' approach saves a horse around 6% in effort if running on the flats. Probably helps more jumping, but less at a walk or trot.

In a mile race, that equates to around 100 yards, so it is huge. Trail riding...not a significant gain in exchange for how much harder the rider has to work. 

A lot more factors in to it. Do you want to teach the horse collected gaits? Or do you value efficient gaits instead? How does security play in to it? Does your horse spook frequently? How do those spooks play out? Spins, jumps forward, jumps sideways, never spooks? Do you want to ride for an hour, or go all day?

I've gone western, so I have no dog in the fight. The numbers of the improvement in racing times came from a guy who does eventing, and they provide the only actual data I can think of that might estimate how much easier one is on a horse than the other.

"_Dressage riders, he says, pound their seats into their horses backs and restrict them from moving freely and fully._"

Not if they are competent. The rider can move with the horse while deeply seated. Or not. Any good rider of any style will try to move with the horse.

The picture below is a screen capture from a video of Edward Gal working with Totilas:








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It doesn't look like text book dressage because a good rider adjusts constantly to what they are asking of the horse. Watch the back of a good dressage rider warming up a horse, when their riding isn't hidden by a coat with tails. Watch their legs and heels. There is nothing static about it.

As VS Littauer argued, riding is about balance in motion. All riding. Dressage and western included.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have seen more horses exhibit symptoms of being unhappy that are ridding in dressage than those ridden in H/J. I think HJ allows the horse to move forward in a less "influenced" manner. and, it's how well that "influencing" is done is the deciding factor in whether the dressage horse is unhappy or not.

the hunter jumper horse is ridden more forward, and less emphasis on how collected or collectable he is. that's what a lot of horses like. however, one also sees a lot of HJ horses running so hard and heavy on the forhand, cantering around counter bent and leaning hard on the bit, sort of just pulling the human along as a barely noticed passenger.

the unhappy dressage horse is being ridden by a rider that doesn't trust him to do anything on his own, so is hauling him in by the rein and squeezing him forward at the same time, killing his interest in moving forward freely. but, the well ridden dressage horse is accepting the contact, and is moving in balance, pushing forward rather than "falling ' forward.

which is better for the horse? a horse well ridden is better for the horse.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

This question will probably generate a wide range of answers depending on peoples’ experiences with and understanding of the two disciplines mentioned. What is good for a horse much depends on the horse as well as the rider. 

Simply due to conformation, some horses are better able to perform certain feats than others. That said, “dressage” traditionally practiced as a training method – not as often related to competition – addresses the physical development of the horse and tries to improve this, making the horse better capable of performing any activity while carrying a rider.

Whether to use a more upright deep seat or an inclined “seat” above the saddle should best be determined by the activity. The latter style of riding was developed to allow less interference when the horse is required to use a broad range of neck and back movement such as used while running. The former creates a closer bond between the rider and the horse allowing for greater feel and interaction between the two bodies. This type of seat should never “pound” a horse’s back but lightly follow its movement. One method is not better in and of itself.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I want to start with saying I wrote a novel and I'm sorry, I'm passionate about my sport. I also want to say I don't think one is necessarily "better" for the horse than the other. When done wrong it is harmful to the horse and when done well it is fun/good for the horse. However I am going to present my perspective based on what I've seen and experienced. Dressage riders train and engage the horses more over their back and using their whole topline to help the horse adjust to carrying the weight of a rider. The back is the weak focal point of a horses structure. It's held together like a draw bridge. What we teach is for horses to strengthen those muscles and carry more behind to help them carry a rider. To a certain point it is a true benefit to the horse and to a certain point it becomes strenuous, just like any sport. From what I've seen of hunters they don't really engage the hind end, they do not ask their horses to sit or collect, so their horses carry themselves around on the forehand putting more stress on the front legs and back from pulling themselves. They don't ask for actual collection because the movement you get from that is not what hunters want to see, though for actual jumpers the GP horses I saw in Germany were schooling 3rd-4th level dressage. I also see dressage riders go through great pains to make sure the horse's saddle fits the horse properly, where as hunters don't seem to put that kind of emphasis on saddle fit. I think it is because we are asking a greater amount of use from the horse's back and are asking them to collect, so their shape changes constantly. A saddle that pinches a little in the shoulder or wither makes throughness painful or a saddle not totally balanced will rock and make it painful for the horse. My youngster for example will rear and you lose steering if the saddle pinches him even a little bit. A mare I ride will toss her head and flip her head with a saddle that rocks or is improperly balanced but both are fine with a saddle that fits properly.

I'm not a hunter but I was an eventer and I will say even though dressage has more contact with the horse's back from what I see dressage riders are vastly more skilled at getting a horse to use their back and have better, more educated seats (not always I've seen riders who will yes sit still in sitting but have no elasticity to their hip and lose the horses movement)and you have to be able to sit at a certain point. When you sit you have to move with the horse and if you ride a big moving horse with a back that moves quite a lot, you have to be that much more supple and elastic in the hips. You can't "fake" sit if that makes sense, fake sitting is when the rider sits still and looks textbook pretty but they're not really moving with the horse or allowing themselves to move and work with the horse's back. Riders can be very pretty to watch and most people would look at a rider like this and say how beautiful their equitation is but they're mostly ineffective and useless as far as actual riding goes. Head may be in the right spot, horse might track up but the horse is not really through or in self carriage. They flatten the back with stiff hips and don't allow the horse to get really round or get real collection or engaged activity behind because that can be very hard to sit and it makes them uncomfortable because they can't sit it, so they restrict the horse to make themselves look and feel better. You see this a lot in dressage and often from the infamous "dressage queen" types with their nose a mile high in the air and and arrogance that could use as the foundation to a pyramid. But then their horse's backs are often sore and the horses often need to be injected before their time and they wonder why. Good equitation has it's place but it shouldn't take precedent over effective riding. Alter the equitation if it hinders the horse/rider but not to create a "pretty" picture. Like the picture of Edward Gal, undoubtedly an extremely effective, skilled rider. Good riders adjust to be in balance with the horse and to be the most effective they can be on that horse. 

My youngster for example moves 10x better sitting trot vs posting because I can get him to sit that much more and get that much more expression and freedom from him, so I disagree 100% with your trainers statement that dressage riders don't get the same freedom of movement when we can get more movement and freedom than the horse would naturally through good training/riding and exercises. The laterals and collected work improve freedom and quality of gaits. My youngster is more relaxed and happier the more collected and focused he is. He stops spooking, he stops getting nervous, his body relaxes and he isn't on edge and actually works with me and seems happy. He needs to be actively ridden but not controlled or micromanaged but his mental attributes make him a good upper level dressage prospect but they would make him a poor hunter and he'd be horrible as a plot along horse. That said I also know a dressage horse at my barn who is being transitioned into hunters because he's not happy as a dressage horse. He's a flatter mover and moves/conformed like an ideal hunter. I think collection (articulating sacrum, bringing the hind end under) is very hard for him and even when done fairly, it's just unnatural for him because he's not built for it. He's not happy when he's asked to do a lot of collective type work.

I'm currently working with a trainer who does high end hunters and dressage. My trainer is in Florida but the trainer I'm working with while she's away has ridden through GP dressage and I don't know about her hunters but I know she's done very well and her students do well. I'm not a hunter so I don't know the ins and outs of it but I am a dressage rider. 

That said I don't think either discipline is "better" for the horse. It REALLY just depends on the horse and who is riding/training that horse and the situation. Dressage gone wrong is UGLY. I've seen people ride where I've wanted to rip them off their horse's back or DESPERATELY want them to be humbled by a horse who simply won't take it. Hunters gone wrong can be just as ugly, any discipline can be good or it can be cruel. But when it's done well you see happy horses in either sport. The upper level dressage horse wouldn't make a good hunter and the nice hunter wouldn't make an upper level dressage horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"The back is the weak focal point of a horses structure. It's held together like a draw bridge. What we teach is for horses to strengthen those muscles and carry more behind to help them carry a rider."

From the viewpoint of what harms a horse, the back is not the weak point. Collecting a horse does not make it possible for the horse to carry wore weight safely. The cavalries of the US & Britain expected their horses to carry loads of 250-300 lbs all day, day after day. And horses did it, without collection.

To adjust for weight on their backs, a horse changes its stride. They use shorter strides and leave each hoof in contact with the ground a little longer, much as a human does when carrying a heavy load. This reduces stress on both the legs and the back.

A collected horse does not "round" its back. It lifts the back by adjusting the thrust from the hind legs, which is why a collected horse also has elevated withers. Notice the horse below, trying VERY hard to round its back:








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A horse's back just does not round up and then support more weight. Collection is at the end of the dressage training scale because it is hard work for the horse. That does not make it wrong to do or harmful. It just has nothing to do with helping the horse live longer and healthier, any more so than any other regular exercise would.

I don't see much value in pointing fingers at any style of riding. All styles have a lot of horses who live long and productive lives. All also have horses ruined by bad riding and poor tack. As TXhorseman points out, individual conformation might drive what sport a horse fits best. But if a good rider uses good tack and sets realistic expectations for what a given horse can do, none of them should be inherently better than another.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I disagree with that assessment. I agree with your final paragraph full heartedly and I respect your ideas but I disagree. After talking to vets, chiropractors, saddle fitters, etc. The back is a weaker structure. Gravity is always pulling down at the horses back and with our weight/equipment added to that we're putting more strain on the back. There is a reason longer backed horse when not ridden to strengthen their topline have problems with their backs and also why you can help sway back in older horses through dressage work. I had a 17.2h hanoverian aged 27 whose sway back was strongly helped through dressage work. He became sounder and more functional. Did we collect or do anything higher level? No but he could walk, trot, canter and was definitely more comfortable walking around the pasture. I've rehabbed a few horses, I've rehabbed 3 from torn/strained suspensory injuries, I had 2 with cut check ligaments, 2 with stifle injuries, a few older horses including one that I guess was a champion roping horse and a young horse with something funky I can't remember what he had but dressage work made him sound. I've seen the difference in the horses through dressage work. I also didn't mean collection allows them to "carry more weight" but allows them to carry it more comfortably through strengthening the back, it's like lifting weights and conditioning the body to carry. It's comparing someone who sits at a desk all day or does leisure walks vs someone who does squats, planks, yoga, Pilates to keep their body sound. Muscular strength DOES help relieve strain from soft tissues and joints. It doesn't totally relieve the stress but it helps.

Dressage training and good riding affects balance, coordination and strength. I often compare it to yoga or Pilates for horses. You're strengthening the muscles over the back and yes they are formed much like cables in a draw bridge. A horse in balance and in a correct rhythm puts less strain on their legs and body than one traveling without balance or straightness.

And myself I'll give an example with my body. I'm a former active duty marine, I was in a physical MOS, my body took a beating from that. If I don't stretch which is painful or I don't do planks, pull ups, basic exercise, etc I have to go back on pain medication. I have degenerative disks and tendonitis in my hip flexors as well as a multitude of other things. The damage done to my knees, feet and ankles is greatly helped by just basic yoga type poses. Riding and dressage also helps me. The orthopedic surgeon who diagnosed me and my physical therapist told me the pain will come back if I don't continuously strengthen my musculature to make up for the weakened structures.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Like anything else if you're a good rider you're not going to hurt your horse. I rode hunter jumpers for a while, but I primarily ride dressage, western, saddleseat and drive. I can tell you from experience that if a horse is being hurt by that discipline it's time to evaluate its comformation and how the rider is riding/training it. 

You can't take a H/J horse and take it into an intense dressage program and expect it to look fine. You're asking for a completely different set of muscles to work. I honestly do think that where a lot of the 'stiff' looking dressage horses come from. I think sometimes riders throw their horse into a program without building up their muscles before hand and it naturally takes longer for that horse to 'loosen' up then. 

As a dressage rider I have NEVER "pounded" my horse's back. I have ALWAYS maintained a light seat that could become deeper with a tad more weight but NEVER enough to cause any damage to a horse. 

Long story short: neither discipline is good or bad for a horse's health unless that horse is ill suited to it physically, mentally OR has a bad team of riders/trainers.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Labrador said:


> Dressage riders, he says, pound their seats into their horses backs and restrict them from moving freely and fully.


If that's what dressage does .... well, then you aren't doing dressage correctly. :wink:




DanteDressageNerd said:


> I also see dressage riders go through great pains to make sure the horse's saddle fits the horse properly, where as hunters don't seem to put that kind of emphasis on saddle fit.


I find that interesting. 

As a barrel racer (primarily), we typically are NUTS about finding a saddle that fits properly. When a horse acts up, that one of our first questions (does the saddle fit?).

My instructor that I take hunter lessons with on occasion is very consious about getting the horse to move properly. She has a background in both dressage and hunter/jumper, so that could be why. Of course, the instructor before that that I took some hunter lessons with ALWAYS placed emphasis on the horse traveling correctly. Again, they do both dressage and hunter at their barn as well.


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## kellison (Nov 20, 2015)

I have ridden both H/J and dressage, and I have worked for trainers of both disciplines. Here are some things I have noticed about both:

1. Both disciplines CAN be hard on a horse's back. I have not seen one or the other be harder or easier. I've noticed that are several factors that influence this issue. In H/J, most riders are not taught an independent seat as quickly as a dressage rider. Not saying there is anything wrong with this approach, but, in dressage, riders have to constantly learn to adjust their seat, so it is taught from the beginning. I found it hard to move to dressage from H/J, because I had a hard time learning to soften my seat. H/J the seat is very stiff.

2. The trainer makes all the difference in the world. At my H/J stable, the trainer was using school horses four times a day, up to two times a day, for an hour or more, and sometimes on weekends. At shows, the horses were sometimes used for two different riders in six different classes. The trainer did not invest in a chiropractor or a massage therapist, she did not have saddles fitted for her horses (in fact, several horses shared saddles), and she did not put much importance in regular visits from a chiropractor, nor did she stress the importance of a good stretching or warmup. Sounds like extremely hard work, right? At the dressage barn, horses were worked once a day, six days a week, for no more than an hour. One of those days was just lunging for 20 minutes, and another day was a fun hack out of the arena. Every horse has a chiropractor visit once a month, saddles are specifically fitted to that horse (and adjusted every few months), and there was an on-site massage therapist that spent a lot of time loosening the horse up and stretching sore muscles. Sounds like a spa, right?

3. The rider can also make or break a horse's back. Weight, balance, and technique all play important roles. I knew a H/J rider that destroyed her horse's back to the point a chiropractor had to be called every couple of weeks to fix the horse's back. She was heavier-set, she had no balance, and no true understanding of how to CORRECTLY sit OR post the trot. 

4. Conditioning is also instrumental. It takes months to properly condition a horse for any sport, and not every trainer/rider moves slowly enough to build up muscles properly.

I do not think there is a simple answer for this question, even if there are numbers. Any number of things can play a factor. In the end, every horse is different, every rider is different, and every trainer is different. You have to figure out what is best for every one, which is the difficult part!


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## rideprosperously (Nov 19, 2015)

Basic schooling is always necessary for the horse in order to strengthen and condition him, but from horse welfare point of view alone I'd say trail riding. I've dabbled in a few taster sessions of different disciplines, but horses definitely look and feel happiest on the trail. You are free to do whatever you want while out hacking, you may wanna go light seat as long as you can, find logs/branches to jump, and be on a loose rein more often. There is also this new thing called Horse Agility, which is non-riding, it looks rather fun but I have yet to experience it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The US Hunter/Jumper does not exist in the UK so perhaps that makes it easier for me to see how basic dressage (which does not involve long stirrups, sitting trot, piaffe or passage) is integrated into show jumping and Working hunter
In show jumping you switch between 3 point and 2 point depending on what you're doing at various places along the course
Same in cross country and hunting (and the UK Working Hunter show classes)
A dressage rider that's thumping up and down on their horse's back at canter needs to improve their riding!!!


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