# Toes pointing out instead of forward



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Personally I wouldn't worry about it. If it's an issue with how your body is built, that means it's more comfortable for you to carry yourself that way, to ride that way. I also tend to ride with toes out, and since I am short and have a number of body unconformities I have decided it's not worth the time for me to correct it. I am comfortable riding that way, I have a secure seat and leg, and I don't see any reason why I absolutely need to turn my toes in. 

-- Kai


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

I think as long as your leg isn't constantly nagging on your horse's sides, and you don't plan to use spurs. I agree with the above ^^


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

Are they badly angled out? Does it seem like they are or have you seen it from pictures? Sometimes it's not as bad as we think. If they're straight angled out - might be an issue. If they're just slightly - it honestly shouldn't be a _huge_ concern. 

I've only really noticed it to be a huge issue for people who are jumping (you can possibly clip yourself on a standard). I don't have much experience with other disciplines, but could see it being an issue when using spurs too.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Trying to force correct position can cause more issues than the worth of it, you never want to put tension into your body. Some issues with feet turning out starts way up at the thigh, hip, if you start by trying to improve that, then lower leg issues can diminish. Not sure I can explain, but when in the saddle, reach down behind your leg, grab your thign muscle and pull it round to lie flat against the saddle....changes everything! I really hope someone can explain that better than I am.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

My toes pointed out almost completely sideways when I started riding again two years ago after a fifteen year hiatus. They now point a more "normal" mostly-forward direction. At no time have I consciously worked on trying to turn them in -- it just happened over time as I gained strength and flexibility and started using my legs better.

One thing that may be contributing: are you using the back of your legs to squeeze when you ride? Are you using your heels in all your leg cues? Try to think instead about squeezing and bumping the horse with the inside of your calf instead. It's more effective, gives you a more secure seat, and will allow your lower leg to go where it needs to be. That said, some people's conformation just really leads to a toes-out position. Worry about riding well, and if it's going to fix itself it will, over time. And if not, no big deal.

Edited to add: this is the video I was looking for! The whole thing is good, but starting at about 5:40 she gets into using the inside of your calf versus riding off the the back of your leg.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

SketchyHorse said:


> Are they badly angled out? Does it seem like they are or have you seen it from pictures? Sometimes it's not as bad as we think. If they're straight angled out - might be an issue. If they're just slightly - it honestly shouldn't be a _huge_ concern.
> 
> I've only really noticed it to be a huge issue for people who are jumping (you can possibly clip yourself on a standard). I don't have much experience with other disciplines, but could see it being an issue when using spurs too.



I can feel it and I have seen it in pictures. It seems bad to me, maybe a 40 degree angle away from the side of the horse. Although that's just when I really "notice" it, it may not be that bad at all times. But my previous trainer mentioned it quite a few times and would show me what angle my foot should be at by physically putting it there for me which was extremely uncomfortable. So I know I'm probably no where close to where I should be. 

No plans on jumping or wearing spurs anytime soon.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Trying to force correct position can cause more issues than the worth of it, you never want to put tension into your body. Some issues with feet turning out starts way up at the thigh, hip, if you start by trying to improve that, then lower leg issues can diminish. Not sure I can explain, but when in the saddle, reach down behind your leg, grab your thign muscle and pull it round to lie flat against the saddle....changes everything! I really hope someone can explain that better than I am.


It's definitely an issue that starts in the hip/pelvis region. I've always had something a little off with my hips (besides their width...LOL), at times in a certain position they will basically "lock up". I really don't know how to explain it, but it feels like the hip socket just locks in place. So I know there's an issue in that region. 

And I know exactly what you're talking about in pulling the thigh muscle around. I saw that written somewhere before and have tried it on occasion. It does help some. I just need to figure out how to make it stay there without it also bringing my knees in.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

It's tight hips. Lots of no stirrup sitting, lunge line work, leg swings, stretching. Rotate from the hip, not knee or ankle. 

Your saddle can impact the ease of rolling the thigh in. A too wide twist prevents the hip from anatomically rotating that way. The wider we have to spread, the more our femurs have to rotate. Round thighs can have a similar effect.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

SteadyOn said:


> My toes pointed out almost completely sideways when I started riding again two years ago after a fifteen year hiatus. They now point a more "normal" mostly-forward direction. At no time have I consciously worked on trying to turn them in -- it just happened over time as I gained strength and flexibility and started using my legs better.
> 
> One thing that may be contributing: are you using the back of your legs to squeeze when you ride? Are you using your heels in all your leg cues? Try to think instead about squeezing and bumping the horse with the inside of your calf instead. It's more effective, gives you a more secure seat, and will allow your lower leg to go where it needs to be. That said, some people's conformation just really leads to a toes-out position. Worry about riding well, and if it's going to fix itself it will, over time. And if not, no big deal.
> 
> ...


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

ApuetsoT said:


> It's tight hips. Lots of no stirrup sitting, lunge line work, leg swings, stretching. Rotate from the hip, not knee or ankle.
> 
> Your saddle can impact the ease of rolling the thigh in. A too wide twist prevents the hip from anatomically rotating that way. The wider we have to spread, the more our femurs have to rotate. Round thighs can have a similar effect.



I feel like when I try to rotate at the hip I'm actually closing my hips in instead of opening them up. I need to figure out how to rotate without closing, if that's possible. 

I ride lesson horses so I'm kind of stuck with whatever saddle is at the barn that fits the horse. I have however noticed that I recently changed from a dressage barn to a hunter/jumper barn. Different saddle altogether. My new instructor hasn't said that much about my feet pointing outward. I'll have to see if she will take a picture or video so I can see what difference the saddle might have made, or maybe she just isn't as concerned about it as my last instructor. Although I know I do it no matter what saddle I'm in, just maybe not to the same degree in each.

I had to laugh a little at the "round thighs" comment. Mine are squishy and just conform to whatever I'm sitting on at the time...like jello :wink: But I do understand what you mean.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My toes stick out like I'm hoping to use my feet as wings. My left always sticks out more than my right. And they stick out when I'm in the shower, or jogging along on two feet instead of riding.

FWIW, I tried some sloped stirrups. They DID result in my feet pointing about 20 degrees more forward, both sides. But after 15 minutes, I noticed my ankle was aching. After an hour of riding, it ached for 2 days.

Another thing I noticed: If I ride with very little pressure in the stirrups, then my feet point more forward. If I ride with a lot of weight in my heel, particularly with 3" wide western fenders, then the only way to equalize the pressure across the stirrup is to twist my leg out. I feel embarrassed about how it looks, but haven't figured out a solution.



> Returning to position adjustments, while still at the halt, rise in your stirrups as if you were posting the trot. Allow your heels to sink down and your toes to turn out slightly, though do not attempt to keep your feet at some pre-determined angle to your horse's body. Frank Chapot, a member of the U.S. Show Jumping Hall of Fame, says it best when he tells us to ride with our feet at the same angle as that with which we walk. Again, you want to ride where your joints align correctly... - Jim Wofford


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Excuse me as I only read a couple responses and so many are pointing the blame at you....

OK, so it is your body but it might not be something you can control...

Till you are positive your hips at the hip joint are seated properly and your femur {thigh bone} is not twisted stop trying to force what could truly hurt your body.

Speak to your doctor, get some x-rays done and once you know for sure it is or it isn't something you can realistically correct..._leave it alone._
Not every rider in history rode, let alone walked with a straight foot placement, nor kept their toes straight ahead...in fact I think I read someplace that those who had a toed out stance had a steadier lower leg and a better seat because their leg was better...not extreme either way, but....:x..you know what is meant.

It is only in countries where sadly it has become common a practice to cut and paste the human anatomy together to resemble something it was not meant by design to do is done...called plastic surgery!
Places where for a $$ anything can be altered...
Go to nations where $$ is not so disposable and watch their people as they walk by...few, as in near none walk with toes straight ahead...more common to see toes-out or toes-in.
Make sure you don't hurt yourself, _literally_...by trying to look like a airbrushed picture you've seen.
_Just sayin..._
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Kriva said:


> I feel like when I try to rotate at the hip I'm actually closing my hips in instead of opening them up. I need to figure out how to rotate without closing, if that's possible.
> 
> I ride lesson horses so I'm kind of stuck with whatever saddle is at the barn that fits the horse. I have however noticed that I recently changed from a dressage barn to a hunter/jumper barn. Different saddle altogether. My new instructor hasn't said that much about my feet pointing outward. I'll have to see if she will take a picture or video so I can see what difference the saddle might have made, or maybe she just isn't as concerned about it as my last instructor. Although I know I do it no matter what saddle I'm in, just maybe not to the same degree in each.
> 
> I had to laugh a little at the "round thighs" comment. Mine are squishy and just conform to whatever I'm sitting on at the time...like jello :wink: But I do understand what you mean.


If you're riding hunters, they likely won't say anything. Its not as big of an issue when you're out of the saddle more. You want the toes out a bit to anchor the leg when in a half seat. 

Dressage is where you really need the hips opened up and the leg dropping flat.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Kriva said:


> But my previous trainer mentioned it quite a few times and would show me what angle my foot should be at by physically putting it there for me which was extremely uncomfortable. So I know I'm probably no where close to where I should be.


If you toe out naturally - as in just standing around and walking normally - you are going to toe out when riding. Trying to force your body into another position is going to cause stress on your ankles, knees and hips.

I toe out from both the hip and knee naturally.. I am actually more comfortable standing with my toes pointed out to 3 and 9 o'clock than I am with them pointed straight ahead (I apparently missed my calling as a ballerina :wink. I spent years trying to force myself into the 'ideal' riding position and just did my best to ignore the resulting pain. 

Stretching exercises can help with your hip flexibility, but you may never achieve the 'perfect' toe forward position.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

It is normal to have toes pointing slightly out, long as heels are down
Without a picture, difficult to judge
My toes are slightly out. Second pic, is a candid shot, so it must be how I ride. Didn't know hubby had a














trail camera mounted end of our drive way, next to my outdoor arena


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Like others said, it probably isn't something to be overly concerned with.

I have noticed, though, that many people wide a western saddle that doesn't fit them. The bottom side needs to fit the horse, sure. But there is not reason the top side can't fit the rider. People I see with this problem are riding saddles that feel more like one is straddling a coffee table instead of a horse!

my suggestion is to borrow severa


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

boots said:


> Like others said, it probably isn't something to be overly concerned with.
> 
> I have noticed, though, that many people wide a western saddle that doesn't fit them. The bottom side needs to fit the horse, sure. But there is not reason the top side can't fit the rider. People I see with this problem are riding saddles that feel more like one is straddling a coffee table instead of a horse!
> 
> my suggestion is to borrow severa



True, and many people ride those older type stock saddles, with all that bulk under their legs, making it about impossible to have that close contact, with your legs falling naturally against the sides of the horse
Stirrups not trained to hang correctly, just about force toes out. Modern western performance saddles come with stirrups already hanging correctly , but on older saddles, the fenders had to be trained,often by sticking a broom through those stirrups.
Hubby finally did his saddle, and found so much less torque on his knees


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

boots said:


> Like others said, it probably isn't something to be overly concerned with.
> 
> I have noticed, though, that many people wide a western saddle that doesn't fit them. The bottom side needs to fit the horse, sure. But there is not reason the top side can't fit the rider. People I see with this problem are riding saddles that feel more like one is straddling a coffee table instead of a horse!
> 
> my suggestion is to borrow severa


I have always said that I am more comfortable riding in an English saddle of any kind vs a Western saddle because it's like trying to straddle a dining room chair vs a recliner


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

Thank you all for the advice. I will work on trying to get the best seat I can have with my legs as proper as possible and whatever happens, happens. This is probably one of those issues where when trying really hard to learn the "correct" way to do things I end up looking at photos and watching videos of professional riders that have trained their bodies to work in an exact manner. Kind of like comparing yourself to a supermodel when you just want to lose a few pounds.

It's nice to know that it's not that big of a deal, especially since I'm not showing right now. I hope to some day but that's down the road quite a ways. I don't want to force my body to do something that it just can't do and end up with aching joints. 

But I also know that yoga will help me with my hip issues and is also good for my entire body so I need to start doing those stretches more often.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Put more pressure on the outside of your foot. On the little toe rather than the big toe. It pulls your toes in naturally, even on my fat horses.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

elkdog said:


> Put more pressure on the outside of your foot. On the little toe rather than the big toe. It pulls your toes in naturally, even on my fat horses.


I did this as a stage of retraining my leg, but found that once I started doing two-point work, the habit of weighting the outside of my stirrups was agony on my ankles and I had to un-train myself from it. In the end I didn't need to put my weight there anymore anyhow. If OP wants to do any jumping I would be careful about this.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Kriva said:


> I have always said that I am more comfortable riding in an English saddle of any kind vs a Western saddle because it's like trying to straddle a dining room chair vs a recliner



You have not ridden in the right western saddle!
There is no way in hell that I would ride again in some of those old western saddles that I first rode in
I can get as much leg and feel, riding with my balance ride close contact western saddle, as with my English Stubbin
There is no reason you need to concentrate on putting weight more on any part of your foot, as I never, ever did so. What kind of western saddle do you ride in, and how is that rigging, esp the stirrup fenders?
Here is a picture of my balance ride western saddle, which I bought over 30 years ago, and which is still my favorite saddle for everyday riding, training and trail
it allows close contact and free leg movement


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

Smilie said:


> You have not ridden in the right western saddle!
> There is no way in hell that I would ride again in some of those old western saddles that I first rode in
> I can get as much leg and feel, riding with my balance ride close contact western saddle, as with my English Stubbin
> There is no reason you need to concentrate on putting weight more on any part of your foot, as I never, ever did so. What kind of western saddle do you ride in, and how is that rigging, esp the stirrup fenders?


I rode western when I first started riding which was about 35 years ago. I bought a saddle from a person that hand made them where I'm from. Not custom, but not mass produced. It wasn't so bad back then because I was new to riding and felt "safe" in that saddle (that horn got held a lot). I would occasionally ride in my mother's saddle at the time which was a Circle Y saddle. I think hers was more of a show type saddle although nothing fancy like I see these days. Since then I just ride in whatever saddle someone has that goes with their horse. I'm sure none of them would be even close to what I would pick if I were to get one specifically for me. 

I have wondered before why western saddles were made with the fenders flat against the horse and the stirrups facing out. It never seemed right since that's definitely not how anyone rides. Why have to spend time breaking them in and getting the fenders twisted to where your foot fits right when someone could just make one with the stirrups facing the right direction to begin with? Now I have actually seen western saddles (or possibly a variation of western/trail/australian) that start brand new with stirrups facing forward. Someone figured it out!!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Stirrup facing is a matter of personal preference. My western saddle has twisted fenders, so the stirrups are at 90 degrees to my horse. That is OK, but I prefer the Abetta with its stirrups lying flat against the side. If anything, they tend to twist my foot more forward, not further away.








​ 







​ 
Once I'm riding with my foot in the stirrup, I don't notice much difference. I like the flat style better for mounting.

As for feel, or where the leg hangs...I prefer my stirrups forward. This comes from a book on western equitation written in the 60s, and is closer to my ideal:








​ 
And this guy riding in the 1880s is riding the way the old style saddles were designed to be ridden. Notice the rifle scabbard. The sheepherders I was around last week are also riding with rifle scabbards after one of the horses was attacked by a mountain lion last year. That obviously isn't a big concern for someone riding dressage, but that sort of need is what drove the older style of western riding.








​ 
In modern times, you can buy a western saddle that will fit any preference. Some are built to put your heel under your hip. Others are not. Twisted fenders or straight. Cut-out skirts or not. The tree remains wider than an English saddles with the vast majority of western saddles, but one reason I like the Abetta is that it has a smaller tree, giving me more leg contact. Which I like, but which others may not.

These guys are not trained riders. They aren't riding for equitation and aren't very competent above a trot. There are now western saddles for reining, cutting, barrel racing, WP, ranch, etc - but the basic saddle was meant more for this, IMHO:



















​


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Kriva said:


> I have wondered before why western saddles were made with the fenders flat against the horse and the stirrups facing out. It never seemed right since that's definitely not how anyone rides. Why have to spend time breaking them in and getting the fenders twisted to where your foot fits right when someone could just make one with the stirrups facing the right direction to begin with? Now I have actually seen western saddles (or possibly a variation of western/trail/australian) that start brand new with stirrups facing forward. Someone figured it out!!


The were made that way because the fenders could then be bent around your leg and gave some protection...I guess it didn't take long to break one in when you were riding all day everyday... I put a 'Texas Twist' in mine using the handy info in the sticky on this forum http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/turning-western-stirrups-17669/ really worked out well


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Golden Horse said:


> The were made that way because the fenders could then be bent around your leg and gave some protection...I guess it didn't take long to break one in when you were riding all day everyday... I put a 'Texas Twist' in mine using the handy info in the sticky on this forum http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/turning-western-stirrups-17669/ really worked out well


This^

Over time the stirrups will turn on their own btw. A used saddle that's already broken in will probably already have stirrups that have 'turned' over time.

Another trick is once you put one on a stand, to turn the stirrup so when not in use, its resting in the forward facing position and leave it there. That will 'turn' them quicker.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Kriva said:


> I have always said that I am more comfortable riding in an English saddle of any kind vs a Western saddle because it's like trying to straddle a dining room chair vs a recliner


Some of that changes once you've ridden a while. I look at pictures of me on Nope from two years ago, and my legs are making this shape: / \ and my husband is all: WHAT are you doing? WHY are your legs and toes poked out all stiff? (Well its because I'm 43 and I'm overweight and my body is all WTHECK are you doing on a horse!?). I don't do that anymore no matter what sort of western saddle I'm in. My legs hang like they should, toes don't stick out.

But yeah, that's what I thought when I was using my roping saddle. There is just SOOO much saddle there, but for good reason considering what they're made for. And I still feel that way in a roping saddle, but my daughter's 3 year old Billy Cook isn't as bad as my early 90s Ammerman. 

On the advice of a young lady I know, I tried (but was initially resistant to) a barrel racing saddle.

Night and day. I enjoy feeling more horse, less saddle. It could be completely psychological but it seems as if any sudden moves on Trigger's behalf are telegraphed a split second quicker to me than in a heavier roping saddle. I also find they're much more comfortable than a roping saddle. I use that comparison because roping saddles and barrel saddles are the most common saddles in this area. I've not tried a western trail saddle yet.

Long story short, Smilie is absolutely right. You've not tried the right western saddle yet.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Kriva said:


> I have always said that I am more comfortable riding in an English saddle of any kind vs a Western saddle because it's like trying to straddle a dining room chair vs a recliner


There are some great western saddles. I have three that have nicely ground seats. My hardcore polo friends even love them and have borrowed them when they've gone to the mountains for day trips. 

I don't know if it is simply because I am used to them, but I am as comfortable in them as I am my polo or forward seat saddle. 

I hope you get to ride some nice ones also. 

My computer gave a huge "cyber sneeze" the other night and I couldn't finish, but I was going to suggest you borrow several western saddles and try them. Especially ones whose riders look to be in a good position.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, I don't get your point, regarding that picture with the old time cowboy and scabbard. 
He is riding with long stirrups, which I also prefer, but his heels are down, and foot pretty much like I ride
Have you ever ridden with a scabbard under your leg? I have, and after about 10 miles or so, that extra bulk starts to bother you, plus the weight of that rifle and scabbard, continually makes your saddle wish to shift to that side. 
Just a point of interest, and nothing to do with this post
The older saddles, came with the stirrups pointing out, with the foot opening at right angles to the horse. With time, they weer trained to lie so that the foot opening was parallel tot he horse (the way one rides)
The newer well made saddles come with those stirrups already hanging correctly

























In Canada, it is not legal to carry a hand gun, or believe me, hubby would, for several reasons.
That rifle, which I now refuse to carry on my saddle, makes his knee more sore, plus, not going to do much in an emergency, esp if you and the hrose part company! I guess, you could teach the horse to shoot!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"BSMS, I don't get your point, regarding that picture with the old time cowboy and scabbard." - @*Smilie* 

It really isn't very hard to figure out. My point was that old time saddles were used differently than a lot of folks ride today, and how they were set up reflected the goals of the time. Back then - as now, really - many western riders do not use a lot of lower leg contact, and many then & now ride with feet more forward and straighter legs.

But there are folks today that will make a western saddle that will meet a wide variety of styles. Because western riding contains a wide variety. And if someone wants a western saddle that puts the heel under the hip, they are available. 

Most of the old saddles I've seen have stirrups that lay flat against the side of the horse, unless long use or a broomstick turned the fender. I like that style. I may replace the turned stirrups on my saddle with new roughout fenders, leaving the stirrup lying flat against the horse's side. But one can buy them either way, and the flat style can usually be twisted - if desired. And the twisted style can be replaced - if desired. "Correctly" is an individual preference.

As it is with toes out. I don't like the extent to which my toes point out, but I don't want them pointing straight ahead either. Which one prefers depends on one's style of riding, goals, and individual preference.

As for gear...the US Cavalry assumed a field load of over 100 lbs of gear. As did the British. Very few people now carry that much of a load along with them. But it certainly helps to explain why "close contact" wasn't a goal in saddle design 100 years ago. The rider fit anywhere there was room left over...


















​ 
Correct depends on one's goals, and in the modern world, you can find a saddle to meet almost any goal. Lots of variety, both English and western! And with the help of the Internet, I was able to get a custom built saddle from the east coast, after having experts view different saddle trees on my horse and giving me advice. How amazing is that? 

Of course, I no longer OWN the horse it was built for...:think:

Oh - and if you are riding back alone into your camp just after sundown, and a mountain lion jumps on your spare horse, you might want more than harsh language to scare him off. That plus regular losses to bears led the herders to WANTING rifles. The three guys riding in the picture in my previous post all have rifles with them.

PS: On two occasions, I've been shot at on horseback by people shooting randomly in the desert. I've considered taking my 357 revolver with me in case there is a third time. But my rifle stays home!

PSS: But getting a slick fork, slick seat saddle as my custom saddle was not prudent. It gets...*slick*, hence the sheepskin.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Smilie said:


> In Canada, it is not legal to carry a hand gun, or believe me, hubby would, for several reasons.
> That rifle, which I now refuse to carry on my saddle, makes his knee more sore, plus, not going to do much in an emergency, esp if you and the hrose part company! *I guess, you could teach the horse to shoot!*


I'd rather teach mine to dial 911. But so far he's accidentally ordered moo goo gai pan by delivery from a place in New York and a lifetime supply of Keurig coffee.

I've yet to figure out how to cancel that recurring coffee subscription on Amazon....


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Smilie said:


> I guess, you could teach the horse to shoot!


I ride a red mare, I'm not scared of anything, she doesn't need a gun.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, please don't generalize, as there is no way you can ride a performance horse, have him move collected, on a loose rein, and not have lower leg on the horse
I think you might have watched some Arabians ridden at shows, where those legs are off a horse, or a gaited hrose, but to say western riders don't have lower leg on the hrose, is just not correct-perhaps watched too many dude riders???
Again, old time western eq saddles, that locked you into the 'correct' basic equitation position (meaning on the flat )not doing any 'performance, event, are a one trick pony. Believe me, I know, as I bought a used one, many moons ago. I then tried to use it at a reining clinic-no way to get your legs forward, for a stop at speed!
I think we have been through the entire speel before, as to how you change your position, from that basic equitation position, for various performance events
No one is advocating that you don't change that position with both the terrain and job
There are of course, just like English, all purpose type western saddles, and those with features that are useful for specific disciplines All purpose saddles in either English or western, serve the average rider, and with those that specialize, buying a saddle best suited for their discipline
Thus, there are reining saddles, barrel racing, cutting, ect, etc, just like there are English dressage saddles, jumping saddles, all purpose English saddles, , cut back saddles for saddleseat, ect, etc, etc.
However, this post was on foot position-ie toe pointing out, and while it is natural for toes to point out slightly, I have never seen it advocated in either the past, nor now, to ride with toes down, not heels and to have toes sticking way out, so that, if you wore spurs, they would constantly be on the hrose


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bSMS, we are not marching off to war, carrying everything we can, and I have been known to pack stuff on my saddle horse, when the pack horse could not carry everything, throwing performance ability into second place. Kinda hard to move quick, with your foam sleeping pads, and sleeping bag tied on!
Does that mean I would chose to buy a saddle that did not in itself allow close contact?
Far as the old Mcclellan saddles, they did allow close contact- just look at the stirrup leathers! You can tie stuff on, that might impede that close contact feature, but that does not mean it is not there!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Back tot he subject of close contact. It does not mean that you ride with constant legs on a horse-just that you have the ability to apply leg aids easily, move your legs freely to adjust for whatever the riding activity requires
My legs lie in 'neutral', against the sides of my horse, unless I wish to apply leg pressure


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"BSMS, please don't generalize, as there is no way you can ride a performance horse, have him move collected, on a loose rein, and not have lower leg on the horse" - @Smilie

I have no clue why you wrote this, or your following post. Did you miss that I was discussing the *HISTORY* of the saddles? Or why _*SOME*_ are still used that way?

"_I think you might have watched some Arabians ridden at shows, where those legs are off a horse..._"

I don't watch shows. They don't interest me. There is a difference between the amount of lower leg contact used in a forward seat (and I suspect in dressage) than in a traditional western seat. The traditional western seat as commonly seen into the 1990s in sports such as reining. I've seen it on ranches. It is fairly common to see it with a trail rider around where I live. It isn't how I ride, but it remains common - and there are still saddles intended for that approach to riding. A couple of videos from a minute of looking:











From a mounted shooting demonstration I went to a few years back:








​ 
That is not the English approach, and it is not mine. But it exists. It has existed for a long time. And there are saddle MEANT to be ridden that way. So...I should not get a saddle built for that way, since I don't ride that way. And that may be what frustrated the OP with western saddles.

But there are western saddles meant to be ridden with more contact. With a forward leg, or heel under hip. There are a LOT of western saddles, meeting a broad range of rider desires.

"_I have never seen it advocated in either the past, nor now, to ride with toes down_"

Again...no clue what you are discussing. I've never said anything about toes down. Nor have I said anything about sports horses, or show horses, or performance horses - none of which interest me, except from a historical perspective. The ONLY point I've tried to make is that western saddles are as variable as English ones. Maybe more.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

Reading through all of these posts have really made me think. There are two reasons that I am less comfortable in a western saddle, too much bulk in the seat and my knees end up hurting after I ride for a while. So more than likely y'all are correct in that I have not ridden in the "right" saddle. I have not owned my own western saddle since the one I bought when I was in elementary school. I went to riding english and never turned back. I do still ride western on occasion when that's what's called for. But I don't even own my own horse right now, just ride lesson horses and was half-leasing for a while so I just ride what the horse comes with. 

As far as my knees hurting while riding western, I figured it had something to do with the fenders not being broken in to my leg, but someone mentioned the stirrups being made flat against the horse helped to pull their toes in...AHA!!! Since I have a problem twisting my leg that way, more than likely the stirrups/fenders have pulled my feet more forward, causing my knees to twist. 

I guess there's only one way to solve the problem...buy my own horse and saddle that fit me  That'll save money on lessons, right? LOL!! Actually, I rode last night and thought more about using the inside of my calves for contact instead of thinking about my feet and I think it helped a lot. 

And Atoka...this " / \ " illustrating how you used to ride is exactly how I feel in a western saddle!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Your examples, BSMS, are not of horses being ridden collected, you missed that point.
If you ride a horse, collected, western, you have legs on, same as English
There are many performance events, where a hrose has to use his back end at points, but that is not the same as having him move in a collected frame. That is why I added that point to specify type of performance event
Also, as mentioned, while you are not going to ride in a collected frame, taking a cow down the fence, close contact still allows you to be able to get that leg on as needed


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Western riidng-horse learns to change leads when you take leg off and put it on the opposite side of new lead, same as a lead departure cue






no bridle


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

notgoing to ride patterns like that, with legs off! By the way , love that last video!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Your examples, BSMS, are not of horses being ridden collected, you missed that point.
> If you ride a horse, collected, western, you have legs on, same as English
> There are many performance events, where a hrose has to use his back end at points, but that is not the same as having him move in a collected frame. That is why I added that point to specify type of performance event
> Also, as mentioned, while you are not going to ride in a collected frame, taking a cow down the fence, close contact still allows you to be able to get that leg on as needed


As the Scots say Smilie, you may as well save your breath to cool your porridge!

I have seen this poster arguing with those who know, with the same old faded pics of cowboys for so long, you are never going to change his mind about anything. Your miles and experience are as nothing, you know this


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> As the Scots say Smilie, you may as well save your breath to cool your porridge!
> 
> I have seen this poster arguing with those who know, with the same old faded pics of cowboys for so long, you are never going to change his mind about anything. Your miles and experience are as nothing, you know this


For whatever it's worth, I actually like it when Smilie and BSMS get to arguing. Even though they get aggravated with one another, I usually learn something from each of them in the exchange. 

But, back to the topic, I think that concentrating on the seat, rather than the feet, will gradually get the feet where they need to be. That may never be parallel to the horse. The OP shouldn't beat herself up over it. 

I'm naturally splay footed, as we call it in the South. I've noticed that the longer my stirrup, the straighter my feet align with the horse. But they have never been parallel. 

On western saddles, I spent nearly every day for over 2 years in a McClellen military saddle. Came back home on leave and rode one of our western saddles and felt like I was a mile away from the horse. My go to western saddle for several years now has been a no-name synthetic with a small pommel, deep seat, and stirrup leathers that move with my leg.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"I've noticed that the longer my stirrup, the straighter my feet align with the horse. But they have never been parallel." - @*Cordillera Cowboy* 

Me too. As I put more weight into my stirrups, the only way to equalize the pressure across my foot seems to be rotating my feet out more. I tried slanted stirrups. They helped. Reduced my 'foot out' tendency by about 20 degrees. But mostly I've decided it doesn't matter. I don't ride in shows so I can do whatever gives me the best result. And sometimes that includes lowering the stirrups and using them lightly.

"_notgoing to ride patterns like that, with legs off!_" - @*Smilie* 

My entire point was that SOME people do - and thus SOME saddle are built in a way that discourages lower leg contact. So if the only western saddle someone tries is one designed for minimal lower leg contact, and the rider desires lower leg contact, it doesn't mean western saddles are not comfortable. *It just means one needs a saddle that matches one's goals and style of riding*.

Frankly, I don't ride patterns like that - and I don't ride "patterns". I came to western riding after learning riding by following VS Littauer & the Forward Seat. When riding a Forward Seat, security is based on the lower leg - and thus lower leg contact is crucial to that approach to riding. That is one of the reasons I like our Abetta saddle, which may be similar to what @*Cordillera Cowboy* described. When I finish a ride, the jeans of my lower leg are covered in sweat. I'm fine having horse sweat covering my lower leg.

I can and do use lower leg contact with my leather saddle. It doesn't allow as much as I like, but it is OK.

Tack that matches goals. And if that means using an English or Australian saddle, that is fine too!

"_Your miles and experience are as nothing..._" - @*Golden Horse* 

That is correct. I've seen too many riders with decades of experience ride badly. Too many instructors instruct without being able to give REASONS for anything. I don't care how many years one has or how many miles or how many ribbons. I wouldn't take riding lessons from someone who encourages using a long shank western curb bit with two hands and constant contact. I wouldn't take lessons from someone who tells me to "_Collect your horse's head!_" - which I have heard a professional instructor tell a student. There are a LOT of very experienced riders, and a lot of professional trainers, who I would not allow to get on my Mustang/Arabian mix gelding! Most of the truly bad advice I've gotten came from people with decades in the saddle.

The only instructor I try to listen to every time is my horse. The only way to discover truth in riding is from your horse. Take in lots of ideas from lots of sources and then go ask your horse. True of "position". True for "tack". The horse will tell you when the answer is right.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

For what it is worth, I ride performance horses at an intermediate/advanced Non-Pro level with pro instruction.

Toes flat against the horse is fine, but the more refined thing is toes slightly out at about a 30 or 45 degree angle (personal preference how much). Oddly, this allows you to put more weight on your inner thigh from the knee up to your seat which at times is absolutely necessary to stay on lol. 

"Legs off" means slow down. I think if of it like taking your foot off the gas pedal. Steady pressure means go the same speed, relaxing pressure means ease up, more pressure with a slight lean forward means go faster. 

I recognize that horses in different disciplines get different cues from their riders depending on the intent.

On the subject of historical riding. I am interested in the "Extended Trot" which apparently the Cavalry used quite a bit? The description I've heard of this is to squeeze with the off-side leg to get the horse to stretch out. That would be quite a workout! I can do it for about 30 minutes before my legs are done for the day.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Close contact, western performance saddles, does not mean you ride with legs on at all times, as certainly various disciplines require that you take legs off, sit deep, get legs a bit forward, as in riding down to a sliding stop
All it means, is that the saddle is built, to ALLOW easy leg contact,when it is needed, freedom of leg movement, or the ability to easily ride with legs on, as required, to what you are doing.
It removes some of the stigma of western saddles versus English saddles,with that being the ability to easily put a leg on your horse, ride without feeling there is a bunch of crap and leather between you and the horse
If I am riding down a steep hill, I don't have my legs on my horse- I have more weight shifted to my stirrups, with the stirrups a bit forward, and me sitting deep in the saddle, horse on a loose rein
Just riding on the level, out on a trail, my legs just naturally fall along the side of my horse, in 'neutral, heels down and foot just pointing where it wants to be, which is just with toes slightly out-nothing is forced
Your picture, of someone riding down into a sliding stop, of course, shows legs off, feet forward, rider sitting deep. That same rider can easily put a leg on, for 
alead change, to ask for speed in the spin, and that is my point, far as close contact, versus those old western saddles with so much leather under your legs, hardware, and with those stirrups not hung to allow a great deal of freedom in movement
My point being, it is not true that western riders now never ride with legs on a horse, as many maneuvers require legs off a horse, but saddles are designed to give the rider more feel, and the ability to both put a leg(s) on a horse, as needed, and to also ride with legs active on a horse, as when asking for collected maneuvers


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

legs just where they want to be

2 legs, just in neutral, loping a green horse

3 legs where they need to be, going down that bank


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Legs where they need to be, depending on what you are doing.
I never meant to imply, BMSM, that you ALWAYS now ride with legs on, in a western saddle, just disagreed with your idea that now one never rides with legs on, in a western saddle, that the style has changed from the past 

I have ridden in enough different western performance events, including reining and games, besides events where you need to ride with legs on, to have that collected movement on a loose rein, to know it 'depends' not only on the event, but also on what maneuver you are doing in any segment of that event
The newer western well made performance saddles allow you to do just that-ride with legs in a natural neutral position, against the side of a horse, when that is all that is required, able to take a leg off or on as required,, and able to move those legs freely, as required, and also to easily ride with legs on, when rating a horse, asking him to move collected on a totally loose rein
One neither rides down a trail with active leg pressure on a horse, nor does one ride down the trail with legs completely off,as in a run down to a sliding stop.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

There are potentially hundreds or more combinations of saddles in what we call "Western". Maybe more. 

My personal favorite is a full rough out, round skirt "strip down" Ranch Cutter with plate rigging in the 7/8 position. Wish I had a picture of it, I'm saving up to buy one just like it. There is just nothing between your leg and the horse unless you move your leg forward.


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## FarRider88 (Sep 2, 2017)

I have had my toes pointed out sometimes when I don't realize it. I usually do an hour with legs out of the stirrups.Another hour with them in.It has helped me correct the flaw.


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## jpenguin (Jun 18, 2015)

My right tibia was twisted 60+° had it broken & straitened quite a bit


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