# Bay Thoroughbred mare



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

First question... WHY do you want to breed your mare?


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## SummerShy (Aug 3, 2014)

NdAppy said:


> First question... WHY do you want to breed your mare?


The WHY isn't going to affect the point of her question. She's asking about color genetics. I'm sure plenty of people on here can tell her what pair she needs to try for the color she wants. Questions from us are secondary. 

OP, how familiar are you with REAL horse genetics? This website (Coat Color Calculator) is fun to mess with but however accurate it is depends on how much information you can provide. What kind of panel testing do they have for TBs? You can always work backwards when you eventually know what your stud options are and then see what is possible between the two of them.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It's still a valid question. 

She needs to know her mare's genetics before anyone can give her a true answer. If she doesn't know that it is all guess work. If the mare is homozygous for black she'll never have a red foal. Breeding for color is the worst reason to breed, so is breeding for "a piece of my horse to carry on." 

If you're looking for something specific, buy it. It's out there already.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

There are thousands of stallions, some are breeding quality but most are not, most mares are also not the best candidates for breeding. Watch out for stallions that are used for breeding because of their color or make cute babies. Color is frosting on the cake, no matter what the color of the frosting, the cake will have no value if has bad ingredients. 

The purpose of breeding is to improve the breed and quality. Selecting a stallion based on what he offers in conformation, temperament, movement, discipline and knowing if they carry any genetic diseases. If you consider stallion color genetics, it is the last thing on the check list. Breeding like to like is the best for predicting the outcome, especially if you don't have countless years of breeding experience/experimentation to try crossing two horses with large differences. If your mare is suited for hunter/jumper, you want to find a stallion who is also suited for hunter/jumper and has proven himself with hunter/jumper foals. You would then have a high chance of a foal that could also excel at hunter/jumper. No idea what your mare is best suited for, but I just threw that out as an example. Point is, if you breed a race bred thoroughbred to a pretty colored halter bred quarter horse, you could end up with a foal that isn't good for doing much. 

That being said, color genetic wise you may never get a chestnut/sorrel or any red based horse color out of your young mare if she carries two copies of black. If she only carries one copy of black and is bred to a red based stallion, you would have a 50% chance of a red based foal. 
If you wanted a roan foal, you can be guaranteed a roan if you bred to a homozygous roan stallion. But that roan foal could be a blue roan, bay roan, red roan or some other color combination under a roan coat depending on the genetics of the stallion. 
If you wanted a dun foal, you can be guaranteed a dun foal if you breed to a homozygous dun. That foal might be grullo, bay dun, red dun or some other combination plus dun depending on the exact color genetics of the stallion. 

But also remember that red roan and red dun are both red based colors which is not possible to get if either sire or dam are homozygous for black. A bay mare has at least 1 black gene and 1 agouti gene that restricts the black to the points. Through genetic testing, you can find out if she carries 1 or 2 genes for black as well as agouti which effects your chances of different colors. If your mare is homozygous black, you cannot get a red foal. If she is homozygous agouti, you cannot get a black foal (any foal with black pigment will have the black restricted to the points instead of covering the entire body evenly).


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

^^And this is exactly why it is easier to buy what you want already on the ground, then roll the dice and hopes it comes out what you want...and is usable.

Great post, Sunny!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## barrlracrgurl (Jul 10, 2014)

NdAppy said:


> It's still a valid question.
> 
> She needs to know her mare's genetics before anyone can give her a true answer. If she doesn't know that it is all guess work. If the mare is homozygous for black she'll never have a red foal. Breeding for color is the worst reason to breed, so is breeding for "a piece of my horse to carry on."
> 
> If you're looking for something specific, buy it. It's out there already.


 Im not breeding her for color, I am going to breed her to a barrel stud. However I would like to get a baby with a bit of color. and she has a few colors in her back ground on both sides. grey, chestnut, dark bay, black, cherry bay...


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Without testing her for at least her base color, it's still a crap shoot. You have no way of knowing if she's homozygous for black from just her pedigree. And even if she is heterozygous for black, she may be homozygous for agouti, in which case there's still a chance she could produce a bay or brown foal (depending on which form of agouti she has...which being that you keep calling her a "dark bay," I'd be willing to bet she is brown agouti, not bay).

By the time you dump all the money and time in for breeding the mare, raising the foal and waiting til it's old enough to train, then all the money for training, you could go out and buy a finished barrel horse that looks exactly how you want.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

If you want to know for certain, it's important to know first what your mare carries, so you could have her tested. The dorsal stripe you refer to is probably just countershading.

If she is homozygous for black (Bay is black based), you won't be able to get anything other than a black based foal, so you wouldn't ever be able to get a red dun from her. You could get a bay dun or grullo though. If you want dun, breed to a stallion that has been tested homozygous for dun. If you want roan, breed to a stallion that is homozygous for roan.

Also important, does anyone know if thoroughbreds are known to carry LWO? If so, I'd have her tested for that, just to make sure.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Glynnis, I do believe thoroughbreds carry LWO/frame. I know there is a whole line of TBs that produce loud pinto offspring that, if I remember correctly, are frame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

barrlracrgurl said:


> Im not breeding her for color, I am going to breed her to a barrel stud. However I would like to get a baby with a bit of color. and she has a few colors in her back ground on both sides. grey, chestnut, dark bay, black, cherry bay...


Background lineage colors tell little. She cannot produce grey as she did not get the grey gene, grey doesn't hide or skip generations. You could however get grey if you bred to a grey stallion and HE passed the grey gene to the foal. Dark bay and cherry bay are just shades of the same coat color, a dark bay can produce a cherry colored bay and vice versa. 

Sometimes you can know what your mare carries in coat colors depending only on the colors of the sire and dam. 

If one parent is black and the other is chestnut, then you know without testing that a bay foal from them is heterozygous black and heterozygous agouti (Ee Aa). 

If the bay mare has 2 bay parents, she could any combination of homozygous and heterozygous for both black and agouti and you would have to pull hairs and have the coat color tested to know your possible foal colors. 

If the bay mare has a black parent and a bay parent, they are either EE Aa (homozygous black heterozygous agouti) or Ee Aa (heterozygous black and agouti).

If your mare has a grey parent, you would have to know what color they were under the grey to know what may or may not have been passed to your mare since the grey blanket was not passed.

Base coat colors are straight forward, some modifiers can hide on certain base colors (like cream can hide on black and agouti hides on red based horses). What is hidden from eye sight and is passed from generation to generation are genetic diseases. Those you must test for to make sure you aren't crossing two carriers. Also watch for any stock bred stallions that carry HYPP, only one copy of that disease is needed for a chance of symptoms. Some carriers show no signs but can produce offspring with non carriers that do show symptoms and they are ticking time bombs. 

Also, test for frame, it is a $25 test and if your mare is negative, you don't need to worry if the stallion is a carrier or not. Frame is one of those genes that can add white markings and be passed from generation to generation with little or no white expressed. Found in both thoroughbreds and stock horses as well as many other breeds. The reason to test for frame is simple, if you happen to breed two frame carriers, you have a 1 in 4 chance of a foal with an incomplete digestive tract and dies painfully about 72 hours after birth if not euthanized. This cannot be corrected through surgery or any amount of treatment and too many foals are born with this preventable tragic end every year because owners did not know, test before breeding, assumed solid horses couldn't be frame carriers or knowingly gambled with the belief that the risk was low.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

SunnyDraco said:


> If one parent is black and the other is chestnut, then you know without testing that a bay foal from them is heterozygous black and heterozygous agouti (Ee Aa).


I agree with everything you said except for this. Since agouti can hide on red-based horses, there is a possibility that the resulting foal from a black-based horse and a red-based horse could be homozygous for agouti.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I agree with everything you said except for this. Since agouti can hide on red-based horses, there is a possibility that the resulting foal from a black-based horse and a red-based horse could be homozygous for agouti.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Umm, blacks cannot hide agouti... That would make them bay/brown lol


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SunnyDraco said:


> Umm, blacks cannot hide agouti... That would make them bay/brown lol


Drafty didn't say black could. She said red could.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Drafty didn't say black could. She said red could.


Yes, but black to chestnut to make bay could only be heterozygous agouti, which is what she quoted me on to say that a bay foal could also be homozygous agouti which is impossible since a black cannot carry agouti. A bay and a chestnut could produce homozygous agouti if the chestnut also carried agouti which is hidden in red based horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

A black doesn't carry agouti :lol: So a true black and red that produce a bay is Ee Aa. 

I say true black because many, MANY browns are registered as black.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> A black doesn't carry agouti :lol: So a true black and red that produce a bay is Ee Aa.
> 
> I say true black because many, MANY browns are registered as black.


And through registration of wrong colors, two "blacks" can produce a bay/brown because at least one of them was not a true black but just very dark and usually a brown. I see plenty of sale ads for horses that are brown horses listed for sale as black horses. Those winter coat pictures tell the truth when they are cinnamon colored around their soft points 

More common than browns being registered as black are the number of browns registered as bay... Browns are just awesome and can fool the unsuspecting as they have such a variety of shades and tend to change color with the seasons.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

OP - Looking through some of your other threads I would highly advise against you breeding this mare.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Sunny, I apologize. I misread your post to say "black-based" not straight black. My bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Sunny, I apologize. I misread your post to say "black-based" not straight black. My bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It happens to everyone :wink:

But I did forget to list the bay to chestnut cross in that post. Black to chestnut was just stuck in my head with thinking of the four bay/brown foals I know personally from breeding a black and chestnut. The first of those foals was born 26 years ago and by a black stallion (true black, I have seen pictures, and heterozygous black since he also sired red foals) owned by an experienced breeder, trainer and show judge. The stallion owner was completely stumped when my mom called her up to tell her that the chestnut mare had a bay filly. The stallion owner then drove to my parents' farm to verify with her eyes what her ears couldn't believe. And sure enough, the filly was bay (actually brown, one of those tricky vibrant red browns that only shows the lighter soft points in a winter coat). The stallion owner then inspected the mare to figure out how a bay was produced by her stallion out of a mare that wasn't bay like all other previous bay foals. Upon inspecting the mare, she determined that the because the mare had dark colors in her tail that was why the foal was bay... Oh how much we have learned with advances in science and study of horse coat colors.


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