# Jousting



## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Does using pool noodles count? I've done that.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

What we do is actually use real lances, dress in armor, and the like, how they did it back in the renaissance age. 

It's dangerous, possibly life threatening, and painful as hell, but the riders love it. One of them lost a chunk of skin on his breast just from last practice we had.


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

I don't do it but I'm a big dork and love ren fairs. Is it an sca thing or just a local type thing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

thesilverspear said:


> Does using pool noodles count? I've done that.


Lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gidget (Jan 19, 2010)

Ouch,I use my dressage whip and say"charge" when I play around...oh boy,that was one of my secrets.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I've never done it but I always enjoyed watching. About the closest I've ever come to jousting is playing "chicken" with an angry momma-cow LOL.

I would love to see some pictures, the horses and riders always look so majestic in the armor and decorations.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Deschutes said:


> What we do is actually use real lances, dress in armor, and the like, how they did it back in the renaissance age.
> 
> It's dangerous, possibly life threatening, and painful as hell, but the riders love it. One of them lost a chunk of skin on his breast just from last practice we had.


Well, yes. I had figured that out. :wink:


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I will definitely post some pictures. 

It's so awesome when you see the tips just splinter in tiny bits and shreds. And the rush you get when you watch them charging, oh man it's awesome. 

I don't know if SCA does it, as far as I know, they just do armored fights and such. There are Ren Festivals all over the US, I just happen to live right at the festival site. If you look up your area, you might find quite a few different festivals near your area. 

Not quite as glamorous, but this year coming up, we plan on changing that decoration wise.
















Supposedly historically accurate!


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## SMCLeenie (Mar 3, 2011)

I've always wanted to do it but never had the chance! (except for with pool noodles like silverspear said)


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

I meant your particular group... I'm quite familiar with the ren fair vibe. Some travel. Some stay local. Some are nationwide(or larger? Not sure how far the sca stretches). Also not sure if sca jousts. The guys I knew who did it just did the armoered fights. 

I've seen some jousting and it is quite the sight to behold especially in person. Love the pics! Thank you for sharing them  I'm also quite sure knights rode about with dragons on their helms all the time  who wouldn't want something that breathes fire that close to their face!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

ooh, okay I gotcha. 

No, we are not SCA. We're a festival that rely mainly on improv'd acts and shows, so we're not like any of the big fancy festivals that have a bunch of vendors and guilds and the like.


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

I work at the Bristol Renaissance Faire most years at the venders, so I get to watch the Hanlon-Lee boys do their thing every weekend. Very fun stuff. I, myself, do mounted archery. I am looking into doing it as a profession, but that isn't for a while now. Great pictures!


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

How do you get involved in that?? I signed up at my group but they never contacted me. They said that I would receive stuff in the mail, but that was a year ago.  I have a friend that is the guy that gets knifes thrown at him. he said he would take me this year!!  

By the way the group that comes here is hogstown. I don't know if you've herd about them.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

No, I have not heard of them. 

For my area, our Equine Team leader actually trains his ground crew, his riders, and jousters. Because we're not a big name festival, we can't really afford to have people come here to joust, even though we had someone from the seattle knights participate a few times. 

Otherwise, I am not entirely sure how you get involved with it... Considering that you're in Florida, I imagine it would be hard to come up to Washington to be a part of the Jousting. : c


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## Shenandoah (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm debating going to the National Jousting Championships this year. They're held just a few miles from my barn. It could be fun to watch, as I've never seen it before.

One of my barn-mates applied for the History Channel's upcoming Full Metal Jousting reality TV show. She wasn't called to the try-outs, though


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Aw... :c Our jousters applied, too, but we haven't gotten any calls either. It's kinda sad.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Deschutes said:


> What we do is actually use real lances, dress in armor, and the like, how they did it back in the renaissance age.
> 
> It's dangerous, possibly life threatening, and painful as hell, but the riders love it. One of them lost a chunk of skin on his breast just from last practice we had.


So apparently the real knights of Europe were smarter than these renaissance faire knights. In the time of Elizabeth I (before James I) they had stopped lancing each other and where doing what is known as "running at the rings" (Maryland's state sport) which is far more difficult that lancing a man and amazingly safer.

They also still competed using an old training technique. A pole that can rotate with two arms. A shield on one and a heavy object on the other. The object is to lance the sheild and avoid getting hit by the other arm as it spins around. The knight that causes the greatest number of rotations wins.

Neither is as easy as it sounds (the rings are pretty small), but a LOT safer. So much so, that the professional knights of old stopped actually attacking each other in favor of this.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

Actually, we do it all.

We use a standin shield [which is a shield that is posted to a thick post in which the jouster hits for points]
We also use a Quintain, which is what you had described in your earlier post. That, we use also for point hitting for our shows. The standing shield is just a training mechanism. 
When we do the actual show, we do not hit each other directly with the lances. Instead we aim for the shields. However, that DOES NOT guarantee a safe hit, or a hit that will not knock a rider off if not hit correctly. I've seen a thick, heavy lance split in two from two jousters practicing, seen the tips splinter to pieces, and have someone fall just by hitting the quintain. 

None of these are 'safe' practices. However, we do not, and cannot, guarantee the safety of the riders. If for some reason someone falls, or gets hit, there are a lot of variables which go into the cause. The horse may have veered off from the line, the rider may have lost balance, the lance tip may not have been completely on the lance, their shield presentation may not have been correct, something may have been wrong with the armor, etc. 

In all the jousts that I have seen, and partook in as a groundcrewman, the most the jousters got out of with were small bits of flesh being lost, and bruises.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Looking at the weapons that are used it does pose the question what if, heaven forbid, a fatal accident happened. Since the death would be accidental, but the attack is delliberate. What would be the court ruling. When a historical reenactor was accidently in 1998 the person who made the shot was charged with assault and reckless endangerment. Fortunately the person wasn't killed, but injured enough to require hospital treatment.
Just remember, a signed release won't always get you off the hook when dealing with someone being killed, crippled or severly injured. It might keep you from being charged with attempted murder (or worse), but there are many other crimes that can be applied. Just keep that in mind. 
Of course I'd also worry about a slip, miss or deflected blow lancing my horse.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

All the jousters know what they are getting into, and we do not force them into anything. They do this under their own will, and we have never had any fatal accident, or anything even close to something of that sort. Our ground crew, AND our jousters have been properly trained and have practices AND have the proper equipment to keep theirselves safe, including everyone else. The most I have ever heard of someone getting in terms of pain, was a broken foot, which was caused by the horse and the groundcrew person trying to settle him. 

If the person is not willing to accept the fact that we are not at fault for their decisions, then they will not joust, nor will they ever come close to touching our horses.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Deschutes said:


> All the jousters know what they are getting into, and we do not force them into anything. They do this under their own will, and we have never had any fatal accident, or anything even close to something of that sort. Our ground crew, AND our jousters have been properly trained and have practices AND have the proper equipment to keep theirselves safe, including everyone else. The most I have ever heard of someone getting in terms of pain, was a broken foot, which was caused by the horse and the groundcrew person trying to settle him.
> 
> If the person is not willing to accept the fact that we are not at fault for their decisions, then they will not joust, nor will they ever come close to touching our horses.


The guys I know doing historical reenactments are the same way, with weapon safety checks, etc.... to prevent accidents from happening. But it only takes one time. My uncle-in-law did these until he was about 70, and boasted about how safe and careful they were. And yet he was at the 135 Gettysburg even in 1998 were a man was accidently shot in the neck.
It's like a risk assessment I did once something that didn't seem to bad on the surface. The actual risk of a major problem was very, very small. However, what had been ignored was the potential problems that would arise if the risk was actually realized. As my report noted. In most cases it's not a quiestion of the odds being extremely low or as one person put it "if" it ever happens. If the outcome is dire, then you have to look at it as "when" it happens, not "if".
Obviously these people are all willing to participate and take the risk. The man who got shot at the 1998 reenactment was willing to take the risk. The waivers protect the organizers, who were not held at fault. But it didn't prevent the man who fired the weapon from being charged. Fortunately is was, relatively speaking, a minor wound.
Just because everyone agrees to assume a risk, that doesn't mean the law and lawyers aren't going to get involved if something goes terribly wrong. There will always be some law that can be applied. If you're very lucky the worse that will happen is they'll pass a law banning the activity. But events in the past have shown that the legal system usually get's "it's pound of flesh" in the process.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I don't see how the risk in jousting is any different than eventing or bull riding or... lots of other things.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> I don't see how the risk in jousting is any different than eventing or bull riding or... lots of other things.


) because there is no criminal code dealing with the charging of a bull with a crime for injuring, maiming or killing someone. Although the law can have it destroyed.

Just like there's no law against a lot of things, but there are general catagories when potentially life threating things injure people. Things like assault (with or without battery), reckless endangerment (or homicide if someone dies). You can get killed driving your car to work, but unless you're at fault the law is going to make someone answer for it. The end result will be up to the court. In a case with the jousting it would certainly be assault and battery. Most likely rickless endangerment too. These are "lesser" charges and hopefully the worse that someone would face.

I'm certainly not telling anyone they can't or even shouldn't do what they want. People can tie a rubberband to their ankles and jump off a bridge. But in cases like that if something happens and they are injured, maimed or killed it deals only with them. 

Let's step outside the potential legal risk. Ever see some die from a violent physical act perpetrated by someone else? Imagine how a person would feel if their action resulted unintentionallly in maiming or killing someone. That alone would be bad enough, but imagine that it's someone you know and you have to face their family. Or in this hobby you have to face their family and friends at events (providing they continue participating). How much forgiveness would it take to be enough? 

But of course we all know that nothing that serious will ever happen to a person. It would only be somone's horse that accidently catches a lance some day, and that will be a lot easier to live with. And unlikely to have any legal issues.

This is all simply fodder for conversation. People will do what they want. Things will sometimes happen. Some lives would be altered and the rest continue on.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

My fiance has been doing this for 10+ years. Though, not at ren. Fairs, but other similar events.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

its lbs not miles said:


> Just like there's no law against a lot of things, but there are general catagories when potentially life threating things injure people. Things like assault (with or without battery), reckless endangerment (or homicide if someone dies). You can get killed driving your car to work, but unless you're at fault the law is going to make someone answer for it. The end result will be up to the court. In a case with the jousting it would certainly be assault and battery. Most likely rickless endangerment too. These are "lesser" charges and hopefully the worse that someone would face.


_Volenti non fit injuria._ That's Latin for "no injury is done to one who consents." Accidentally killing your opponent in a boxing ring is not a crime, and neither would it be in jousting. 

As for civil suits, barring gross negligence, liability depends on the strength of your wavier, not on the particulars of the activity. Anybody can _attempt _to sue anybody for anything; that doesn't mean they will win, or even get very far in the process (and it's a long process). There's a guy who tried to sue Bush for "misrepresenting the addictive properties of beer." :lol: The court threw the case out.

Incidentally, there was a lawsuit over a death in eventing last year. (It was on FHOTD).


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Your man was referring to criminal, not civil, charges. That said, I still think any prosecutor who pressed criminal charges would be on dodgy ground, as *most* relevant offenses require proof beyond a reasonable of not only the _actus reus (_criminal act) but _mens rea_ (guilty mind). You must prove the defendant *intended* to injure or kill the victim, which would obviously not be the case under these circumstances. Sure, there are such things as "strict liability" offenses which do not require proof of _mens rea, _but that's stuff like statutory rape, not assault, manslaughter, or even homicide. There are also categories of offense along the lines of criminally negligent homicide, but you have to prove, again beyond a reasonable doubt, that the defendant did not act as any "reasonable" person should under the circumstances and behaved so negligently as to result in death or injury. Provided the usual jousting safety measures were in place and participants were properly trained and aware of the risks, I think this would be a very tenuous claim to make.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> _Volenti non fit injuria._ That's Latin for "no injury is done to one who consents."


Based on that people could bring back dueling to the death and have no fear of punishment if they win. Indeed, based on that you could give written consent for someone to kill you and face to punishment. Didn't keep Jack Kevorkian from going to prison. And he was performing mercy killings with consent. Was still charged and convicted of 2nd degree murder.

Of course I guess the "knight" could claim self defense )

They Frenchman who accidently shot the man at a reenactment in 1998 did it accidently (using a borrowed pistol) and everyone out there by default consented to particpating in a recreation of an armed conflict.
Didn't stop him form being charged with assault and reckless endangerment. He didn't go to prison, but it's still not much fun working throught the legal system. And perhaps I represent a minority in the world, but killing someone that I didn't intend to, would haunt me the rest of my life.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

What I'm wondering is why you are making such a huge deal about this, LBS. It seems to me like you are trying to make the OP feel bad about being involved in the sport simply because someone could get hurt. So the guy you heard about got charged...that means exactly nothing. Unless the OP is in the exact same jurisdiction with the exact same cops and lawyers to handle the investigation and the knights signed the same exact waiver as the reenactment guy, the chance that the outcome would be the same is virtually non-existent. Many other places, a death that occurred during a sporting event or game such as jousting (or football, or boxing, or motocross, or any other of the hundreds of dangerous sports where one person's death could be caused by another person) would be chalked up to a horrible accident and everyone would just go on with their lives. So just stop browbeating the topic already.

Deschutes, those are great pictures, I thoroughly enjoyed them. I would love to see more if you would be willing to share .


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Wow, it's really not that serious. It's a sport and a hobby just like anything else involving horses and people. Accidents happen just like they do in jumping, eventing, racing, and even trail riding. 

I can attest to the amount of hard work, practice, and very careful planning that goes into jousting. The purple who do know exactly what they're doing and are very good at it. I'll have to find some pictures from some of my fiance's events.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I do have a few other pictures. 

Aside from Jousting, we do Horse Games which include spearing rings, cudgeling cabbage, weaving, water carrying [which is extremely hard to do if you have tiny hands. ><]. This year before we do jousts, we are going to do drills and make it look really nice and fancy. We also thought a pre joust Knightly Games [pretty much like a sword tourney on the ground] to get the crowd pumping. : D 

Horse games: 

























More are on the way!


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

More Jousting stuff:









This was a practice run before the actual Joust.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Great pictures, that looks like a ton of fun to be involved in.


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

It is. But it's a lot of work, and sometimes a pain up the **** when you deal with people who don't pull their weight. : p


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

its lbs not miles said:


> Based on that people could bring back dueling to the death and have no fear of punishment if they win. Indeed, based on that you could give written consent for someone to kill you and face to punishment.


I didn't make _volenti _up - it's a real legal doctrine. Dueling to the death is not the same because there the intent is actually to kill someone, not just to win a competition. It does not matter how dangerous an activity is; what matters is the intent of the people doing it. If you could prove that a jouster was very reckless I suppose you could argue manslaughter, but it probably wouldn't stick. You may be confused between criminal and civil law; the burden of proof in criminal is much higher.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Deschutes, what kind of saddles do you use? And do you make the bardings yourself?


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

For the saddles we use, it depends on Western or Aussie. Never ever do we use English-- the risk of slipping is just too real. 

Each Jouster has their preference as to which saddle they use, but for the most part, we use the Aussies do to how they are made. Though, ours are being torn apart on the panels because of the armor... 

And Bardings? I am not familiar with that word.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

All the fair people here use Mcclellan saddles. (not arguing just adding to the convo)

Color me confused but??? You don't know what barding is???? Really? are you sure you are reenacting? Thats a pretty basic midevil peice of tack?


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## ligoleth (Sep 9, 2011)

I do not personally joust. I am just the ground crew who catch the horses and check up on our jousters after each hit. I take care of the horses, but aside from that... I don't really know anything aside from that. 

But as far as tack goes, we use current tack with costuming over it.


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