# Thoughts on this Gelding



## 283515 (Feb 4, 2020)

So a lot of horses grow that way, grow a lot in the front and are low in the back, or high in the butt and low in the front. Most horses level out, but since they are still growing like that, I would not ride him at all until he is level due to the fact that you can permanently keep him like that, but I have a feeling that you are more than knowledgable to know that. ) So yes, a lot of times they will level out with time and rest. God bless )


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## newkidontheblock (Nov 28, 2018)

Odd, my photos are not loading, hopefully this helps!
Thanks for the response Destiny! I have seen them grow butt high/downhill, but never to this extreme (especially to where they were lame.) 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Hmmm. Hard to tell much from those photos. The angles they're taken from, and the positions he's in, really exaggerate the impression of him being downhill.


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## 283515 (Feb 4, 2020)

Most horses that are butt - high or top - high will have lameness in their feet due to the fact that there is a conformation issue. The top will eventually catch up, but it may lead to long - term lameness and/or a sore back. That will not always happen, but when horses have huge growth spurts like that and are in that position for a little bit, it can cause long - term problems because the body is trying to develop around that high - butt and not with the even body. It will get uncomfortable for them to walk since they are unbalanced, thus the lameness. I'm sorry if that didn't make the most sense, I can only explain in person, and not text. lol. I hope this helped, thank you for getting back to me )


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

If he is really that downhill at 3 years old while he may grow in the front end some more I doubt that he will end up being even. If you want a sound and healthy horse then in my opinion they should be that way when you buy them instead of crossing your fingers and hoping for the best.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hmm, by 3yo & that(if pics are accurate) amount of difference, I'd think he will always be 'butt high' but may even out a little more. If you're only trail riding & light arena stuff, then saddle fit may be your only real issue with that. 

What concerns me more is that he was 'grown up' too quickly, resulting in 'growing pains' to the degree of lameness(what kind of lameness? How long/frequently?). I'd want to look carefully into that. Could be just a matter of well balanced nutrition - for eg. perhaps too little omega 3 & magnesium is leaving him 'tight' in the muscles when his bones were growing, but could be OCD or something more problematic. Could also be lameness due to hoof probs or such, related more to management than conformation/growth.



> Most horses that are butt - high or top - high will have lameness in their feet due to the fact that there is a conformation issue. The top will eventually catch up, but it may lead to long - term lameness and/or a sore back.


Having been around horses vast majority of my life, having been a farrier for the past 20 years, I have never experienced anything of the sort. *However* I also don't recall too many severely 'butt high' horses - most I've seen are to the degree of OP's horse but at younger ages, or less imbalanced than him.


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## newkidontheblock (Nov 28, 2018)

Hi @loosie (et all) 

This was my exact concern... I have never heard of horses becoming lame from "growing too fast," or ever seen a horse to this degree. As @JCnGrace mentioned, I was always under the impression that at about 3 they should be fairly level. 

I'm thinking that perhaps it may be better to pass this time around.


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

(I can't see the pictures right now.)

What breed is he? If he's a QH/Paint, it's likelier that he _might_ stay butthigh. If not, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Horses don't really stop growing till 6-8, and many of the babies I've had have seemed to 'level out' at 3-4, and then hit a growth spurt again at 4-5 and then finally filled out and reached full maturity at 6-8. It varies per horse and breed however exactly how they mature however. 

Speaking conformationally, butthigh doesn't necessarily mean downhill movement. It does put more weight on the horse's forehand and it makes it harder for him to actually lift the forehand to a degree that he can travel along nicely, but it doesn't mean that he's actually traveling in a truly downhill manner. Depending on the degree of butthigh, it might cancel out other good elements of his conformation, or it might only negate them to a slight degree. It certainly is an unwanted trait because of saddle fitting in self-carriage issues, but it's not a terrible fault like sickle hocks or post legged that will almost always cause some sort of soundness issues throughout the horse's life. 

Being sore when going through a growth spurt is pretty normal in my experience. Not everything on the horse is growing at the same rate, so he's left in a slightly unabalanced state compared to a properly mature horse. Not to mention, the differentiation of growth rates in bones and tissues can shift the placement of certain things temporarily, until everything else catches back up. I'd have a vet check it, absolutely, but it's not a major turn off in my opinion.


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## 283515 (Feb 4, 2020)

I found a good article to support my statement. I also talked to vet, who is my best friends mom, and she said she had a horse when she was in younger and had the same problem with becoming lame when he was butt - high and she sent me this article. Now, they won't fully even out, but he will get better and a little more balanced. The saddle fit is also a huge part of it as well, I would suggest a custom fitted saddle to him or a good thick saddle pad. 
CONFORMATION FAULT: Downhill Balance is the link


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

newkidontheblock said:


> He is being sold by a breeder who says " his front pasterns and fetlocks get sore when he goes through big growth spurts.


For myself personally, this would cause me to pass immediately on the horse. 



Horses don't get sore when they grow._ Clumsy_, yes, but not sore.


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## newkidontheblock (Nov 28, 2018)

I didn't realize that I had not mentioned, he is an AQHA, so it wouldn't be entirely odd for him to be somewhat downhill.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

My mare is built downhill - was hoping she would even out, but at 6 I don't think she will. 

She has never experienced lameness from being downhill; our biggest challenge has been saddle fit. 

I wouldn't pass on a horse just from being downhill (depending on what discipline you do). I am doing dressage with my mare, so I'm really in a pickle...hahaha. 

But the lameness IS a concern and I would pass based on that.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I would pass on this colt, if it were me, just based on the pictures given. I do ride cowbred QHs which tend to be down hill but not like that. Although some of it could be the quality of pictures taken.

I haven't had an issue with colts being sore through awkward growth spurts but more imbalance (if I am riding them.) 

As already mentioned,saddle fit is going to be tough if he doesn't have the wither. I think one of the most overlooked things in buying a horse is their back! 
If you don't have the money to spend on a custom saddle I would be considering back shape. Yes, their backs change as they develop and are ridden. You can "ride a wither into a horse" on some but some you can't.


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## Smartee Pants (Sep 27, 2019)

One of my boys was a registered 1/4 horse purchased as an unbroke 3 year old. He was very downhill. I broke him and rode him (showing and trail riding) well into his teens. He finally grew into his butt around 5 or 6! No soundness issues.


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## newkidontheblock (Nov 28, 2018)

Thanks All! 

I will most likely pass on him, however this has been a really interesting forum for my own knowledge. I already had to drop almost 3k on a saddle for my current older hard to fit gelding and would like to NOT do it again... 

The owner is still going to send over some official conformation shots and I will post them here for my own knowledge!


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## ksbowman (Oct 30, 2018)

Beautiful horse and the high hip wouldn't bother me as he has a lot of growing left to do. What would bother me is the lameness. I haven't heard of the lameness before in growth spurts. There are a lot of horses out there with less holes.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I was thinking of breeding my APHA mare, and this horse is exactly why I won't even consider breeding to another APHA. I believe they are breeding for the wrong thing- butt high is so common. And the overly straight hind legs. 

I believe that horse is going to grow another inch or two in the front. If they have pictures of the sire and dam I would consider those pictures carefully, as that gives you a better idea of what you might get. Still i don't think you will have a level horse in the end. 

Why is the western world breeding so many downhill horses? I think an infusion of thoroughbred blood is needed. Pick the front end out of the dirt. And the tree post straight hind legs??? Yuck.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

newkidontheblock said:


> had to drop almost 3k on a saddle for my current older hard to fit gelding and would like to NOT do it again...


I'd personally(not having the funds either to have custom fit saddles all round) take this into consideration when you're looking, perhaps take your saddle(s) with you to try on prospects... It is a big expense after all. Or do what I did & go treeless - not that they fit everything without adjustment still, but mine has replaceable panels, etc...


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## newkidontheblock (Nov 28, 2018)

Yes definitely,
 @loosie I do have a treeless that I love (bob Marshall) that I could use in between. I would agree with everyone as it wasn't so much the "butt High/down hill" situation that turned me off, but the lameness. That was fairly alarming! 
@4horses His sire is actually fairly level and almost uphill (ironically) Not so sure what his mother looks like, but I will try to hunt her down...


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## NeverDullRanch (Nov 11, 2009)

I'd like to see better pictures of his PASTERNS which look a little long (from what I can see). That would be a cautionary detail if I was horse shopping. He's very cute, but there are plenty of cute horses out there who have ZERO pain issues.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

4horses said:


> Why is the western world breeding so many downhill horses? I think an infusion of thoroughbred blood is needed. Pick the front end out of the dirt. And the tree post straight hind legs??? Yuck.


I'm no conformation expert but most complain about the cowhorse bred QH being sickle hocked not straight other than halter horses. 

Again not a conformation expert, but if this was a cowhorse prospect I'd say "no" due to the amount of downhill in combination of the weak loin (and not much of a wither) and lack of depth through the flank not his hind legs.


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## newkidontheblock (Nov 28, 2018)

So a new update. Here are some better photos of him. He seems very high for a 3 yr old QH
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/?
Will he ever catch up??


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## NeverDullRanch (Nov 11, 2009)

I looked at the newer photos and while I am certainly no expert on conformation he appears to have a very straight shoulder and the "pastern" concern I had is highlighted in these photos. Maybe he could be aided by a better farrier, but in the recent photos, his front feet are too far ahead of his LEGS, putting extra strain on the joints nearest the ground. Also he looks fairly light-boned below the knee, making them possibly prone to injury. While his "downhill" issue may correct itself over time, his front end is not what it should be.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

While I don't know if quarterhorses are prone to it, growing too fast is the cause of OCD lesions in the joint, which need surgery early in their lives to avoid long term lameness. I'd want joint x-rays on him before purchase.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I wouldn't buy him his fetlocks on front legs look swollen and dropped. I'd keep looking, I'd have doubts about him staying sound.


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## LuckyLady (May 21, 2009)

I'm definitely no expert on this, but I can tell you from my own experience, that my Paint/Arab mare kept growing until she was 7 years old.
Other than that, I can only say he's a cute horse, but I'm sure the others who posted before me know more about this matter.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SteadyOn said:


> While I don't know if quarterhorses are prone to it, growing too fast is the cause of OCD lesions in the joint, which need surgery early in their lives to avoid long term lameness. I'd want joint x-rays on him before purchase.


And for those who DON'T know, they're not prone to Obsessive Compulsive Disorders of the knee & such!! It's Osteochondritis Dessecans if you want to look it up.

Just thought I'd put that up, as someone at a lecture I attended was a tad confused...


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

I'd be concerned about those pasterns as well, but I think those absolutely horrible front feet are making the pasterns worse than they appear. They need a good farrier, soon, or he's going to have trouble staying sound. He is downhill(which is not something I would buy in a horse) but that's generally 99% of QH anyhow so you're not going to be able to avoid it except perhaps in the cases of running-bred TB's(First Prize Doc is a very handsome uphill stallion). 

Moving on from that, the amount of weight he's naturally carrying on his front legs due to being downhill, his very low neck emergence, and being sickle hocked is pretty much going to guarantee he's going to have trouble lightening the forehand and traveling engaged and light. Him being butt high as a youngster isn't something I'd particularly worry about, especially at this level, but he will always be downhill. It's not too high that it would negate any good traits at the moment, but the problem is is that he doesn't have the good trait of being uphill so the butt-high-ness just adds onto his downhill-ness and will make it harder for him to engage and lighten. He'll likely have issues with shoulder control. 

Overall.... for any type of riding I would pass on this guy. He's cute, but he's not built to be a working horse.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

99% of AQHA are not built downhill. I don't know where you are getting your numbers but that is simply not true. There was a time when cutters went for shorter, downhill builds because they felt that lowered the center of gravity and they worked better. Now you G still see relatively short and can see a slight bit downhill in those lines but not any extremes. As with any breed that has diversified there will be body types that go along with those disciplines in the lines that produce those disciplines.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

newkidontheblock said:


> So a new update. Here are some better photos of him. He seems very high for a 3 yr old QH
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/?
> Will he ever catch up??



I'm not so much worried when a young horse is downhill, because they all usually go through that "fugly" stage at some point, but I would be very worried about the condition of his front feet. Hard to tell in the photos but looks like he's got some very long heels and could use a much better farrier. Those front feet do not look right at all. Which could account for why he's already got some lameness issues.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Been about 10 days or so since you posted this...
Most are cautioning you to proceed slowly or walk-away...these are members who have experience in raising, breeding, training and competing in many disciplines of "horse"...

So, I just looked at all the pictures presented..
I too will agree to move-on and not pursue this animal further.
There are just to many this, that and add another that when all add together makes for a animal that has a higher than wanted percentage of serious issue happening.

I drive daily past a home where someone breeds Quarter Horse and Appaloosas , raises and starts training, then sells these horses.
I can say no horse of all I've watched since birth through late 3 year old looks at all like this horse does.
The legs, the pasterns, the hooves, the neck and chest...just the look of healthy this horse does not exhibit enough of.
There are just to many negatives in questionable build that would prevent me spending my money here.

I recognize the un-level ground the photos were taken on, but conformation negatives are still present when you not look at the ground just the animal.
To many negatives to overlook and his "sore" because he is growing...no, something else is happening the seller knows about and hopes you not discover till after a purchase.

I worked with Thoroughbreds from babies to old and aged, racehorses/show-horses/competition animals to the backyard family pet ...they all went through a ugly growing stage but none of them went sore because of a growth spurt.
Even a light-worked future you plan with him so downhill a build if he not level off better is exhausting to ride on trails..think about how that feels sitting astride tipped forward always, no thanks.
No one knows where he will level off to or if he will...a little butt high is far different than what this youngster portrays, then add everything else so many have mentioned... 
Now add besides his butt-high everything else mentioned. :|
Sorry, it would be a pass on this one if me. :frown_color:
:runninghorse2:...


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## The Equinest (Dec 18, 2019)

@QtrBel

By the functional model of conformation assessment(which I've found to be the most sound and scientific method, unlike the other methods that have been disproved several times and aren't very scientific), they are almost always built downhill. The only QH I've ever encountered that aren't downhill are the running bred and a few cutting stallions. The model functions off of taking the top horses from each discipline and comparing what similarities and differences they have, as well as how anatomy functions to help movement and lightness. By that model of assessment(which you can read more about in Judy Wardrope's website, jwequine.com), they are nearly always downhill and their quality of movement as well as the most common injuries in QH reflect this. 

Shorter or butthigh doesn't mean downhill - downhill refers to movement. A horse may be butthigh and still travel uphill and light on the forehand, very easily. (I own a Morgan gelding who is at least a few inches butthigh, and he still has twice the scope of movement of the typical "level" QH because he is uphill.) I have nothing against QH - but to say they typically travel very uphill without training to aide them in doing so would be incorrect.


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