# Is anyone else tired of people calling rodeo abuse?



## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Unforturnately, there's abuse in all disciplines by stupid people. But, I don't think rodeos are abusive in general. I feel for the calves that are roped, but people don't realize how think a cows hide is! I love watching the bronc riding!


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## Jessskater (Mar 16, 2011)

I personally dislike rodeos. The way they jump on calves and tie them up..so sad to watch..


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

I second feeling for the cattle. I also agree that there is abuse in every discipline, and that, if you really want to get technical- half the stuff we do to our horses- i.e, jumping on their backs and expecting them to hold us for hours, sticking metal peices in their mouth and expecting them to go where ever we want without acting up in anyway or else they are punished, is cruel. 

That aside, I believe rodeo, to me, is one of the most natural sports out there that deals with horses besides trail riding, simply due to the fact that 

1- horses in the wild will go around something before jumping it
2- dressage poses have to be learned, you don't see horses dancing around in a pasture
3- all a horse has to do in rodeo is either run around a barrel, or run and/or cut cattle or bronc a rider, which, is a bit cruel in my opinion, but if we are sticking to the "natural" argument, it is natural for a horse to bronc a predator on its back in the wild and running is a natural gait. 

There are pros and cons. It all depends on the horse and rider as inividuals. If your horse puts up a fuss or you hurt your horse, obviously it should be stopped. But if your horse seems to enjoy it and just does as told...why not?


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I'm extremely tired of it.
What gets me, is that everyone I hear complain about it, doesn't understand about horses, cattle, goats, etc. These animals are usually taken better care of than anyone else's animals, these rodeoers use them as their career and can't afford to purposely abuse them. It's also a whole lot harder than people may think. It's beyond difficult to break a calf's neck, they're made to swivel (to a point..not sure what other word to use). Doing so would be a waste of money on the owner's part, and no rancher/farmer/cowboy I know of has money to waste.
And broncs..I don't see one bit of abuse with this. A horse bucks naturally, be it in a pasture or in the wild. The horses aren't forced to buck, they enjoy it. People don't understand this, and as soon as they see the spurs the riders wear they run around screaming abuse like chickens with their ears cut off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Threads like this tend to get hot pretty fast. Search the horse protection section or search rodeo abuse and you'll find tons of threads where this has been discussed to death. I think it's just one of those issues where you're never going to convince the other side that you are the one in the right.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

ETA---
I apologise for above post of mine that wasn't finished..no clue how it happened D: this is the full post. ;;


I'm extremely tired of it.
What gets me, is that everyone I hear complain about it, doesn't understand about horses, cattle, goats, etc. These animals are usually taken better care of than anyone else's animals, these rodeoers use them as their career and can't afford to purposely abuse them. It's also a whole lot harder than people may think. It's beyond difficult to break a calf's neck, they're made to swivel (to a point..not sure what other word to use). Doing so would be a waste of money on the owner's part, and no rancher/farmer/cowboy I know of has money to waste.
And broncs..I don't see one bit of abuse with this. A horse bucks naturally, be it in a pasture or in the wild. The horses aren't forced to buck, they enjoy it. A lot of people don't understand this, and as soon as they see the spurs the riders wear they run around screaming abuse like chickens with their heads cut off. The spurs are rounded and rolled across the horse's side, not jabbed. And if you think about what people actually call abuse (with good reason, but I understand why) such as using cattle prods to get the horses out of the chutes, it's not much differed than smacking your horse with a crop while it's trying to shove you into a tree on the trail. A horse will get more injured by going off (late) in the chute, than getting a little shock to get it moving. It's safer for everyone involved, including rider, handlers, and horse. I'd much rather smack the crap out of my horse than have it decided to step off a ledge out on the trail and fly down a rocky hill; it's not much different. And my goodness, a horse that does work for about 8 minutes a year, as opposed to a top dressage horse that needs to be worked near daily, has a much easier life. Hell, I'd rather be a bronc than a dressage horse any day, ha.

Everything a horse does (be it undersaddle, in the pasture, in the wild) is dangerous. A horse can get hurt trotting around if a gopher decides to make an exit/entrance to their home in that area. Life is dangerous, I don't see us only sitting in fields eating grass, some of us sit in an office with only possible "life-threatening" paper cuts, and some of us work in construction where we can get crushed with equipment. Stuff happens, and people shouldn't holler abuse at every single thing they see.
But of course, that's just my opinion. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_*Fact*: Bronc and bull riders can get fined and disqualified if their spurs have been "set" and do not roll over the horses/bulls hide. It also gives them less sticking power (advantage animal) because to get points, they need to "spur" aka move their legs in a certain fashion._

_*Fact*: The flank strap helps to animate an already natural motion that a horse makes. It is like a belt that you wear, and is no tighter then that. _

_*False*: Flank straps are allowed to have metal in it to poke the horse and annoy it into bucking._

_*Fact*: Rodeo companies work really hard to make sure that their animals are well taken care of. They rotate them, trying to make sure that they do no over use them. Without the stock, they cannot put on the rodeo. Poor quality stock does not perform as well, and means that contestants are less likely to enter another of their rodeos._

_*Fact*: Most rodeo stock enjoy their job, and even know what they are supposed to do. Ever notice how as soon as the rider is off, they stop bucking? Its a game for them. Heck, I would love to work for 16 seconds in a weekend, and thats it!_


_Anyone who actually is willing to do even the slightest bit of research can find out a lot of information in a short little time. The PRCA is more then willing to give out information on the treatment of their roughstock and the rules that apply to them. They even made it super easy, and have a section on their website dedicated to it. ( See here: http://prorodeo.com/Animal_welfare.aspx)_

_What a lot of people forget is that most people who rodeo...most...grew up on a ranch or working with animals, and so have grown up learning how to properly treat them. They are their livelihood, and without the animals, wouldn't have a job._


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Well said velvet!!


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_*smoothes her clothes and looks smug*_

_LOL. I did an essay in grade 12 law about Animal Rights in Rodeo and Horse Racing. _


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

LOL nice  I did one on the perscription drug Premarin and the treatment of the mares they use.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

SAsamone said:


> That aside, I believe rodeo, to me, is one of the most natural sports out there that deals with horses besides trail riding, simply due to the fact that


"Natural" does not equal good. Racing is natural for a horse too, yet it's responsible for more injuries and deaths than any other sport. 

"Natural" is also a misnomer. If bucking was so natural for broncs they wouldn't need straps or spurs of any kind to do it.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> "Natural" does not equal good. Racing is natural for a horse too, yet it's responsible for more injuries and deaths than any other sport.
> 
> "Natural" is also a misnomer. If bucking was so natural for broncs they wouldn't need straps or spurs of any kind to do it.


You mean like show jumping and Dressage? Nope, no spurs there...

You do realize the main purpose of a flank strap is to indicate to the animal it is time to perform? Have you actually watched broncs? The vast majority of them, including bulls, almost immediately stop bucking once the rider is off, _even with the flank strap still on._ In the older days of rodeo, it was completely common for the local farm horse/ranch horse to ALSO double as a rodeo horse. The flank strap was his cue to buck instead of ranch.

Those broncs are not "wild animals". They perform just like our pets do. And are probably given a better life and a better ending then half our so called "pets" do.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Exactly!!! And yea, racing causes injuries- so does running around a pasture- I can't tell you how many times horses have come to the vets office because they were running around and fell or did something. Let's face it- horses are clutz'. End of story. And let's also remember that alot of horses are injured in other sports as well.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I'm not knocking rodeo, I'm knocking the "but it's natural!" argument. That argument isn't sound (sound, get it?) Either everything we ask horses to do is natural or none of it is - it all depends on how you look at it. Some sports are _easier_ for the horse, but none are more "natural" than others.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I have to disagree. Of all the sports we ask horses to do, the two most "natural" actions for them would easily be bucking (rodeo) and galloping (racing). Reining, cutting, pleasure, jumping, Dressage all incorporate things you really never see horses do (or rarely) either in the wild or domesticated in pasture. Bucking and fleeing are probably the two most natural responses/instincts horses have!

Maybe some "airs above the ground" could be considered natural though. :lol:

It definitely doesn't mean racing and rodeoing are "correct" or "best" for horses. But in regarding only the "natural" argument, I'd have to disagree.


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm not too familiar with rodeo, but I watched some last night and want some clarification.
A small percentage of bulls actually began to attack their rider once they were bucked off. These bulls were the more difficult (harder to stay on) bulls, mostly. Is there any reason for this? There were quite a few that stopped DEAD once the rider was off, and many that just proceeded to run off (potentially trampling the rider, but not intentionally.) Any reason for this?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Bulls are a lot different then horses. Unfortunately, bulls are not domesticated the way horses are. A bull is a VERY dangerous animal whether you're on it's back or just in a field with it. A stallion will run, a bull will attack with little provocation.

The key is that if you took an actual "wild" bull and an actual "wild" horse, you'd have dead cowboys. Both animals would be terrified and stop at NOTHING to get the creature off it's back, and often go on the fight afterwards as well. If you've ever seen a cowboy break in a wild horse, you'll understand the difference between a "wild bronc" and a "trained bronc". Scared animals are highly dangerous animals - a scared horse will flip, slam into fences, and all sorts of other dangerous behaviors that are NOT wanted in a rodeo ring. Anyone who's worked with a few wild animals can so the enormous difference in a scared animal and a rodeo bronc.

However, with the bulls, it's a very fine line. Because bulls have a much higher tendency to inborn violence compared to horses, even the "trained" bulls will come after you because bulls actually get mad. A lot of rodeo horses you can walk up to in pens and pat with no problems - bulls you simply can't do this with, as most ranchers know. SOME are obviously more docile then others, I have known friendly bulls, but the domestication is a lot newer as compared to horses and bulls don't become "tamer" the more time they spend around humans as horses tend to.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Bulls, in general, are very aggressive creatures, especially when they are already in a moment of excitement or agitation. Driving normal bulls (not those bred for bucking) across a pasture on a horse can be a very delicate procedure because they are quick to turn and fight if you push them even a little bit too hard. One of the reasons why cattle have horns is because they cannot flee all threats the same way that a horse can, they don't have the speed, agility, or endurance to outlast most large predators. That is also why they are more willing to go on the offensive and attack. Even though the human isn't hurting them, the rider is seen as a threat because it has attached itself in the same basic location that a predator would (think lions and wildebeests as can be seen in the picture below). Therefore, the bull gets his testosterone up and goes on the offensive to eliminate the 'threat'.


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## horsedreamerforheartland (May 21, 2011)

Rodeos are a part of horse and human life together. Rodeos have been around for a long time. Even though there is tugging on the bits, sharp turns, and cattle to get grounded to the ground, that is what the horses have been trained for and its not that their riders want to injure them, its just that its a level the rider wants to aim for and a lot of the time it brings the horse and rider closer together to have a tight bond. Abuse is chosen by the rider. Horses are loving animals and with the right person can be confident happy creatures. There are people who do abuse their horses but the idea of a rodeo doesn't include abuse it involves horsemanship and passion.


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## iambatmanxx (Mar 13, 2011)

Okay, with this topic I'm fairly uneasy. There are some rodeos that are actually abuse-free. However, I have been in many rodeos myself and have seen a lot of abuse. Yes, calf skin is thick yaddayadda, but I have also seen the way the rider's snap the rope to jerk the calf backwards and slam all their weight on their back. I've seen many calves die from this action just by back and neck injuries. 

I definitely do not support the "wild horse race" either. 
The rodeo in general is not abuse, it's the people that participate in my opinion.


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

I like to watch rodeos the only thing I don't like it that half the time the animals are electrocuted while there in the holding pen. Not nice...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

ladybugsgirl said:


> I like to watch rodeos the only thing I don't like it that half the time the animals are electrocuted while there in the holding pen. Not nice...


How many times have you personally seen this? "Half the time" is a pretty gross overstatement. Using electricity is highly illegal, and is only seen at bottom of the barrel mostly unsanctioned and low key rodeos. If anyone were caught doing that in pro rodeo, they would be strung up and their careers would be over.


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

I just saw it on a few youtube videos not at rodeos I go to
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

ladybugsgirl said:


> I just saw it on a few youtube videos not at rodeos I go to
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Always question the internet. Those videos on YouTube are just like PETA, and basically show you completely unsanctioned rodeos that don't follow any organization and therefore, do not have any governing assembly in place to make rules. It's like video taping horse slaughter in Mexico and trying to tell people that's how they get slaughtered in the US!


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## tbstorm (Dec 16, 2010)

i think it all comes down to... you can find abuse in any disapline or sport involving animals! rodeo is a sport, just like jumping is a sport and both use spurs. your always going to find the stupid people in every sport, really you cant escape it!!


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## tbstorm (Dec 16, 2010)

just to add to that rodeo is my sport so... i wont knock it and i wont knock any other sport


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## iambatmanxx (Mar 13, 2011)

Well actually, this kind of stuff doesn't only happen at low-key, backyard rodeos. There is one big rodeo that a lot of abuse happens there, I attended once in my life and walked out. The Cheyenne Frontier Rodeo is a pretty big rodeo, as they call it, "The Daddy of Em All".


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

Im not bashing the rodeo I enjoy going and all the ones ive been to I have never witnessed abuse and they are not huge rodeos and if a animal is hurt they have people there in a blink of a eye to help the animal. the peta type videos is where I saw the abuse the "hidden side of the rodeo business" type videos
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

The stock is better treated (as a general rule) at the high-end rodeos. The bucking stock is valuable and well-maintained, and thus treated humanely. There's nothing inherently cruel with bucking out horses and bulls (though some of the bull-riders' spurs, if you look, are rather sharp even for a bull's thick hide).

At the low-end rodeos, there is far less regulation, and far greater instances of cruelty and abuse. Bucking stock is not nearly so well taken care of.

Barrel racers are, well, barrel racers. We've hashed and rehashed that issue in many threads. Some are good and some are bad. Most, despite rough treatment, care about their horses' welfare and don't actually intend to be rough/abusive, and barrel racing is absolutely no different than any other horse sport.

However, any way you look at it, the roping and bulldogging events are cruel. They do NOT simulate actual work on the range in the good ol' cowboy heritage days, when the goal was not speed but efficient, stress-free, easy work on the cattle. Jerking a young calf to the ground from a dead run is appalling, and even at some of the bigger pro rodeos, you will see very rough handling of the horned stock (out of view of the spectators, of course). Bulldogging isn't a whole lot better, and it's got to be extremely stressful for the steer. The same thing with team roping. The way those cattle are "trained" to run isn't exactly humane, either....

At some of the real, good ranch rodeos, they practice a style of roping that is far more realistic for a practical working environment, and this shows a far more useful (if less flashy/impressive) skill as well as being far kinder to the cattle.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> However, any way you look at it, the roping and bulldogging events are cruel. They do NOT simulate actual work on the range in the good ol' cowboy heritage days, when the goal was not speed but efficient, stress-free, easy work on the cattle. Jerking a young calf to the ground from a dead run is appalling, and even at some of the bigger pro rodeos, you will see very rough handling of the horned stock (out of view of the spectators, of course). Bulldogging isn't a whole lot better, and it's got to be extremely stressful for the steer. The same thing with team roping. The way those cattle are "trained" to run isn't exactly humane, either....
> 
> At some of the real, good ranch rodeos, they practice a style of roping that is far more realistic for a practical working environment, and this shows a far more useful (if less flashy/impressive) skill as well as being far kinder to the cattle.


I will agree with you on the bulldogging, I don't like that either just because I don't see the point of it. Why jump off a perfectly good horse to wrestle with a steer?

However, I'm not sure where you're getting your idea behind the roping events having no connection to actual ranch work. Roping (especially team roping and even tie-down roping and steer tripping) is one of the few events that are commonly done on ranches every day, past and present. 

Even in ranch roping, speed is necessary. Not every cow is just going to stand there calmly and wait for you to drape the rope around it's horns/neck or patiently wait for you to set up a good heel loop and then obediently walk forward into it. Even old broke cattle will run when you start to swing your rope and half the cattle on ranches these days have been "farmerized" to the point where they will commonly run when they see a _horse_, let alone waiting for you to take your rope down. The last thing a ranch hand wants to do is chase a sick or injured cow for a half mile before they rope it just so it won't be running quite so hard when it hits the end of the rope.

Sometimes, the work on ranches is done by a single cowboy and he has to get..._inventive_ with ways to get everything from a newborn calf to a 2000 pound bull roped and tied down for doctoring. 

Depending on who you ask and where they're at, methods can range from wrapping the rope around a tree to choking them down to tripping them to wrapping their back feet in the same rope that's around their neck (a trick my brother, a lifetime ranch hand, taught me), then trying to hustle and get them tied down so that you can get your rope off before they choke to death. All the time, hoping that your horse (who you left out there ground tied at the end of the rope) will keep the rope tight so the momma cow or bull can't get up and demolish you before you get them secured or go back up the rope after your horse and injure him.









Ranch work isn't all butterflies and rainbows either. Sometimes things don't go exactly right and the cow or a horse pays the ultimate price, there are just no spectators or camera crews there to document it all.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Great points bubba and smrobs  (love the picture too smrobs) 

I just wanted to point out, that in a sport...ANY sport, the object is to be the best of the best. With team roping and what not, the best of the best is the fastest. This not only ties in with the horses' speed, but also with the humans' speed. If you think about it, this speed enables the animal less time to stress and is actually a good thing (more humane). And, as mentioned, the sport does emmulate the actual nature of the real work, since you must be fast so as to eliminate stress on the animal that is tied, and not get hurt by other livestock in the field (or the one that's tied and kickin'!)


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I just googled some terms and picked the first website that came up:



> When roping gets mentioned most folks think of rodeo-style calf or team roping, if the topic even comes up at all. But that is a more modern version and the old way of handling cattle on the open range for doctoring and branding involving the use of "la reata" (lariat, catchrope, gutline, whaleline, maguey) for catching and holding the animal while a groundman did the deed is a far cry from that high speed deal. Ranch roping was done slowly and purposefully so as not to stress the cowbrute, being as it was probably sick or a young one that was about to be stressed enough by the branding and castrating that cattle undergo still today. On occasion it might involve high-speed pursuit as in wild cattle catching but generally it was considered a sign of poor herdsmanship to chouse the cattle when roping. Standing or walking shots were preferred and sliding your dallies, and even picking a forefoot up in the loop, to keep the cattle from choking down, was requisite to be considered a real hand by your peers. If you handled the cattle poorly you did not stay on the payroll long either. Ranch roping is the art of "la reata" with its roots deep in the vaquero/long rope/dally style rope use. It is now enjoying a revival with renewed interest not only from cowboys and livestock raisers but from recreational horsefolks too. The sidearm, houlihan, scoop loop, the Johnny Blocker, la flor del viento, all speak to a level of skill at cattle catching that is now more than rare where it used to be commonplace. But in addition, they speak to a level of refinement in a horse and a level of horsemanship in a person that was rapidly disappearing. Now, that kind of horsemanship expertise appears to be on its way back and people are finding a lot of value in it for them and their horses.




Now, I'm not a roper, nor have I been on working ranch, but I've heard the above repeated enough times (and in mainstream publications like _Western Horseman_) that I'm apt to believe it. It just makes sense to me.

You can't tell me that this:










demonstrates a useful ranch/ cattle doctoring skill. Nor can you tell me that it's humane ("Cattle are tough! It doesn't hurt them!").

Another point that I failed to mention last night is the "training" of calf-roping horses. *Now I'm sure that there are good guys out there who practice real (kind) horsemanship, and do things the right way*, but I've seen and heard far too many horrible things to let the average calf-roper near my horse. Dog shock collars over the nose to make them back up, beating them over the face and head repeatedly with a stiff rope for the same purpose, jerk lines, really nasty bits....again, certainly not something an actual working cowboy would do.


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## Fiinx (Jun 19, 2011)

I dont think Rodeos are that great but they aren't evil. Where PBR is actually VERY good to their cows. They all have really good breeding and are well take care of. I think it depends on the rodeo and stuff...


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## handrews23 (Jun 20, 2011)

SAsamone said:


> I second feeling for the cattle. I also agree that there is abuse in every discipline, and that, if you really want to get technical- half the stuff we do to our horses- i.e, jumping on their backs and expecting them to hold us for hours, sticking metal peices in their mouth and expecting them to go where ever we want without acting up in anyway or else they are punished, is cruel.
> 
> That aside, I believe rodeo, to me, is one of the most natural sports out there that deals with horses besides trail riding, simply due to the fact that
> 
> ...



Agree.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> I just googled some terms and picked the first website that came up:
> 
> [/FONT]
> 
> ...


But it is ok to yank him like that because we gave him a good meal today


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I haven't been to a rodeo since I saw a bucking horse collapse with a broken back. They threw it a coral panel and drug it out of the ring announcing later that the horse was fine. 

I haven't been to the chuck wagon races since I saw 2 different horses break a leg at 1 event and be put down either.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

I haven't been to a jumping event since I saw a horse come down off the jump and break it's leg and roll over it's rider.

Or since my mare was over jumped when she was younger and developed arthritus in both back hocks. She is now 17 and cannot be stalled or else her legs swell. I also have to be careful how I ride her. 

Or since my other mare developed a chronic back problem, again due to over jumping. She cannot be ridden bareback.

And thank you Handrews 

I do, however, want to point out that I do somewhat agree with bubba. If you can do it the slow way FIRST (roping I mean) then by all means, go for it, and I am sure that ranchers feel the same way. But most times, as was pointed out previously by smrobs I believe, cattle now a days will run before anything. I know...i have a ton of them where i live. And the big daddy's are nasty- unless they are 4H or FFA cattle, they are pains in the you know whats, and it's in everyone's best interest to just get it done quick and be done with it.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Bubba, I'm not saying it's nice, but it _does_ really work that way outside of the rodeo arena. And, yep, things like calf roping (tie-down roping) are done every day on ranches. How, exactly, would you go about getting a 300 lb calf tied down for doctoring if you were out by yourself, 10-30 miles from the nearest house, with no corrals to be had? He has to already be down at the end of your rope before you get off your horse so what options do you have?

As for the "abuse" of the calf roping horses, I've never seen things like that but if you have, then that's the fault of the rider, not the sport. Not all ranch cowboys are nice and gentle souls with their horses either.

I'm not saying that it's all harsh and cruel, but it _is_ real life and real life is hard on people, horses, and cattle. Not everything can always be all nice and touchy-feely when there is a job to be done and often times when doctoring cattle, it's a lesser of 2 evils type thing. You have the option of roping them and getting them down by any means necessary, making them uncomfortable for a few minutes, or you can just leave them be and watch as they slowly suffer and die from a hoof with foot rot that has become infected, an abscess, the scours, a retained placenta, or any number of other illnesses or injuries.

Bad things happen, people and animals get hurt, and there are bad people involved with every aspect of any discipline involving horses/cattle. To blame the sport itself for that is asinine. That would be about like me saying that horse shows or western pleasure are evil and cruel just because Cleve Wells is an abusive asshat.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

smrobs said:


> Bubba, I'm not saying it's nice, but it _does_ really work that way outside of the rodeo arena. And, yep, things like calf roping (tie-down roping) are done every day on ranches. How, exactly, would you go about getting a 300 lb calf tied down for doctoring if you were out by yourself, 10-30 miles from the nearest house, with no corrals to be had? He has to already be down at the end of your rope before you get off your horse so what options do you have?
> 
> As for the "abuse" of the calf roping horses, I've never seen things like that but if you have, then that's the fault of the rider, not the sport. Not all ranch cowboys are nice and gentle souls with their horses either.
> 
> ...


_Very well said._


_And Fiinx--> The PBR does not have cows, they have bulls or cattle. Cows (aka female bovines) are not used for rodeo events such as steer wrestling and bull riding. Bulls or steers(younger bulls) are used. Heifers might be used for tie-down roping, but thats not as likely. _

_The guys who provide the bulls to the PBR would have cows, as they would be stock contracters, and would most likely have cows to be bred to their bulls. _

_And just as an added, just like stallions have stud fee's, so do bucking bulls. A vile of Little Yellow Jacket semen is worth $800 US._


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

smrobs said:


> Even in ranch roping, speed is necessary. Not every cow is just going to stand there calmly and wait for you to drape the rope around it's horns/neck or patiently wait for you to set up a good heel loop and then obediently walk forward into it.


Why does the cow need to be roped at all? I know people that have pet cows and they stand tied or stand for the vet just like horses do. Is it just that ranchers don't have the time to train their cows? 

Besides, aren't cattle kept in stalls these days?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> Why does the cow need to be roped at all? I know people that have pet cows and they stand tied or stand for the vet just like horses do. Is it just that ranchers don't have the time to train their cows?
> 
> Besides, aren't cattle kept in stalls these days?


When you have hundreds of cattle, there is NO way to train them all to stand nicely for the vet. No cattle rancher is going to waste time teaching their hamburger to stand nicely before it's shipped off to slaughter. It's nice that some people with a cow or two can do that - but it is absolutely not feasable on a cattle ranch. 
No cows I know of (other than dairy cows, to be milked) are kept in a barn, or ever see the inside of one before they're shipped. None. Again, not economic in the least. 
Here in Alberta, they are kept on pasture (TONS of pasture) and herded in a few times for care, where roping and cutting become essential, then run through chutes to a truck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_My grandparents have maybe 10 head of cattle, and they definitely are not pets. You cannot get too close to them before they start to move away. _

_Cattle are not pets. They are for meat (or milk)._

_You might get luckier with milk cows in being able to touch them, but a lot of them still move back when they are in the stanchion (sp?) when you move by. The barn I most recently helped a friend milk at maybe had a handful of cows out of the 50 or so that they milked that would stand there for a pet. Anything else shied away._

_Even a lot of smaller diary farms still turn their herd out after they are milked...they know when to come back in in the morning/evening to be milked again. Again, because they aren't pets, but a livelihood._


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Amen!!! :clap: Livestock...no matter how you look at it, even horses- no matter if for pleasure, rodeo, eventing...whatever, ALL livestock have a job. We must not forget that they are not fuzzy dogs and cats. We can get attatched, but ultimately they are livestock. That's why we train them differently than we do our dogs.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> Why does the cow need to be roped at all? I know people that have pet cows and they stand tied or stand for the vet just like horses do. Is it just that ranchers don't have the time to train their cows?
> 
> Besides, aren't cattle kept in stalls these days?


You _are_ kidding, right? How many cattle do you think are on an average ranch? 

Around here (and we are not even in the middle of ranching country) a ranch will range from 100 to 2000 cattle at any given time spread over _many_ square miles. There are hundreds of new calves born each spring to each ranch only to be weaned and sold each fall, many of which will be sent to feedlots where they will be fattened up and butchered at 2-3 years old. What, exactly, would be the point of spending time training them and where in the world would those folks get enough stall space for that amount of cattle:?? To most normal people, cattle aren't pets, they are food animals, nothing more. How else would we have enough beef to feed an entire country?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

smrobs said:


> You _are_ kidding, right? How many cattle do you think are on an average ranch?
> 
> Around here (and we are not even in the middle of ranching country) a ranch will range from 100 to 2000 cattle at any given time spread over _many_ square miles. There are hundreds of new calves born each spring to each ranch only to be weaned and sold each fall, many of which will be sent to feedlots where they will be fattened up and butchered at 2-3 years old. What, exactly, would be the point of spending time training them and where in the world would those folks get enough stall space for that amount of cattle:?? To most normal people, cattle aren't pets, they are food animals, nothing more. How else would we have enough beef to feed an entire country?


Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_I wouldn't want to be the person that had to clean out that many stalls everyday.... _


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Ahhh, calm down, you can't blame them for thinking that. I live in florida....cow/calf country. Some of our kids are born and raised on ranches and farms and KNOW where their food comes from and how...and what REAL food tastes like. However, alot DON'T. It's sad. and our world is becoming more and more ignorant to it. They want to eat "healthy" "organic" yea okay....my great grandfather lived to be well into his 90's on bacon grease and lard and you know why? Cuz it was REAL. People just don't know anymore unless you work the trade. Sad that only about 3% of us are feeding the rest of the population....


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Why does the cow need to be roped at all? I know people that have pet cows and they stand tied or stand for the vet just like horses do. Is it just that ranchers don't have the time to train their cows?
> 
> Besides, aren't cattle kept in stalls these days?


I sincerely hope you're joking. You DO know the difference between a dairy cow and a beef cow right?

Reminds me of a radio program a couple years ago where they were talking to some activist raging against treatment of dairy cows. The DJ asked where they expected farmers to get the milk, and the person said "why can't they buy it in the supermarket like we do?" :lol: City people make me lulzy.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

We always had at least one pet cow out of the herd when I was a kid. Even a pet cow will kick you if its afraid and hurt. Better safe than nursing a broken arm or rib.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I go to watch a rodeo once a year, I find it fascinating as I am an English rider who knows little about western sports. 

However I chose to use the bathroom or buy a soda while the steer wresting is happening. The only time I saw it, a 300lb dude came down on a steers neck and broke it. 

I don't know the rules, but in my limited experience, I don't think this is a low level event. This idiot was far too big for both the horse he was riding and the steer he wrestled. What did not help was the idiot announcer, who shouted, oh we are so cruel as people started to leave the event. That did not help one bit.


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## BarrelBaby101 (Jun 20, 2011)

Every discipline has pros and cons. And like many people have said, it depends on the RIDER. I personally ride in rodeo, I'm a barrel racer and proudly a team roper. And yes, I do the same thing out in the pasture when were roping cattle as I do in the ring. When you have 500 head of cattle running all around you, speed and accuracy with the rope is a must. There is no, "let's take our time today and have us or the animals stress out" no, thats not how it works. You go out, rope, tie, doctor, brand etc then let the calf go. End of story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> When you have hundreds of cattle, there is NO way to train them all to stand nicely for the vet. No cattle rancher is going to waste time teaching their hamburger to stand nicely before it's shipped off to slaughter.


That's what I wanted to know, thanks.




SAsamone said:


> my great grandfather lived to be well into his 90's on bacon grease and lard and you know why? Cuz it was REAL.


Because he actually got exercise, more probably.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I have another question. I have heard (from someone here I think) that real Aussie saddles don't have horns, the reason being that Aussies never roped their cattle. How did they handle them then?

...and now that I think of it, how do they doctor domestic bison? Is anybody good enough to rope those? lol


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I can't say about the Aussie saddles (other than that you're right, they don't have horns), but I do have atleast a guess with the bison. 
I'm assuming they tranq'd them like zoos do nowadays, or they just didn't get doctored.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

You'd have to ask someone who actually worked in those situations for the details. 

From my understanding, the Aussies generally gather together and have one large roundup at certain times of the year where all the cattle are driven into corrals, I don't know how they would go about doctoring an individual animal in the middle of the rangeland. You'd have to ask an Aussie about that.

Most of the folks that I know that raise domestic buffalo have corrals with squeeze chutes within a fairly short distance of their pastures where the buffs are kept. That way, they either coax or drive them into the corrals and run them up into a chute for doctoring.

I was speaking of working American _cattle_ ranches, which I have extensive experience with.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I cannot for the life of me think what those things are called, but isn't there an Aussie (or is it South American?) tool consisting of a leather thong with weights at each end, which is then thrown and wrapped around the legs of a running cow to bring it down?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Thank you for your very informative posts, Smrobs!


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Bubba, I think you are think of bolos


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Reminds me of a radio program a couple years ago where they were talking to some activist raging against treatment of dairy cows. The DJ asked where they expected farmers to get the milk, and the person said "why can't they buy it in the supermarket like we do?" :lol: City people make me lulzy.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: thank you for brightening my day  r


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

"Bolos" sounds right, but when I google it, I just keep getting bolo ties...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

You might try "bolas".
the bola or boleadora, a summary of ethnographic artifacts from south america, clina and other cultures.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

That would be it!

South America, Australia; _o_, _a_....same thing.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

smrobs said:


> Most of the folks that I know that raise domestic buffalo have corrals with squeeze chutes within a fairly short distance of their pastures where the buffs are kept. That way, they either coax or drive them into the corrals and run them up into a chute for doctoring.


I did see this on TV, but I couldn't remember if it was for a zoo or a meat ranch, which is why I asked. Now can someone explain why this wouldn't work with cattle? 

I think I would kill myself trying to throw a bola.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_From what I understand, to have bison, you need to have a certain kind of fencing--so many strands, a certain grade etc. When bison get spooked and stampede, they will run through and over anything. By making smaller pastures, they would be more easily managed...plus you are already having to spend money on the proper fencing anyways._

_With cattle, they may run, but they are "smart" enough to know where the fences are, and are more likely to avoid them. Not all the time of course, but more likely. Not to mention that a lot of cattle can still be grazed on public land, or grazing grounds with other herds. Since there is no fencing to keep them seperate, you would have to round them up into a big communal herd and seperate them out. However, when it is on your own land, and you are about 50 miles away from the closest corral, your only choice will be to rope them. Same with if its on public ground. _

_Not to mention the fact that fencing takes time away from doing other things as you have to continual ride the fences to make sure that they aren't broken or cut. Plus the cost of building them._


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

smrobs said:


> From my understanding, the Aussies generally gather together and have one large roundup at certain times of the year where all the cattle are driven into corrals, I don't know how they would go about doctoring an individual animal in the middle of the rangeland. You'd have to ask an Aussie about that.


Don't you know? We bop 'em on the noggin with a boomerang, ride our kangaroos over to them, tie their legs up with crocodile skin and then throw 'em on the barbie with the shrimp. 

Ha ha just happened to catch this thread. One of my good mates from Uni is the son of one of the oldest cattle station owners in the country.

I don't know much but here's what I can tell you:

We rely heavily on dogs, particularly heelers, kelpies and collies for rounding up cattle.

Every cattle station I've seen has had numerous cattle chutes that are used to run the cattle through for doctoring.

Due to the sheer size of cattle stations in Oz compared to here in the US I suspect many cattle are simply left undoctored and it is left to the once a year round-up. 

In response to the topic, since coming to Texas I have been to the rodeo several times and thoroughly enjoyed it for the most part. However there are times during the roping events that I have to look away, I will admit that seeing what happens to some of the calves almost brings a tear to my eye.

Bleeding heart I know. Then again, watching some of the training techniques employed in dressage has also brought a tear to my eye so I am all round pretty hopeless. Don't even get me started on racing.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

sarahver said:


> Bleeding heart I know. Then again, watching some of the training techniques employed in dressage has also brought a tear to my eye so I am all round pretty hopeless. Don't even get me started on racing.


I know what you mean. Some of the techniques they use to get the horses to lift their feet in dressage is just disgusting in my opinion, however, I am positive that there are other more humane ways as well. And racing, I just don't agree with unless you are runnin' around a barrel.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> I did see this on TV, but I couldn't remember if it was for a zoo or a meat ranch, which is why I asked. Now can someone explain why this wouldn't work with cattle?


 
One of the reasons is because many of the people around here who raise the cattle are more farmers than ranchers. They don't know how to handle them but they have the money and land so they buy them. When left to care for the cattle by themselves, they depend on the truck siren and feed to lure them into pens (which, _if_ there are any at all in that pasture, are usually built in the most pain-in-the-*** locations, like the dead middle of a pasture). 

Because they have no clue how to build the pens, they usually put them right in the middle of a pasture where 40% of the cattle will get a wild hair and run circles around the pens instead of going in the gate. Then they hire cowboys like myself and my brother to check and care for the cattle. 

They buy large tracts of land that are anywhere from 1/2 to 5+ square miles, sometimes on rough country with trees, brush, creeks, and washes. There have been lots of places where I've day-worked when we had to bring in portable pens just to have a place to pen up the cattle so that they could be loaded into the trailer.

It _would_ make a cowboy's life much easier to have readily accessible, good quality pens in every pasture but it just doesn't happen. Even if it did, in a larger pasture they would still have to drive a sick/injured cow up to 5 miles or more to get them to the pens and the chute in order to doctor them. That would be much harder on them than roping them where you find them. Trying to drive a sick cow 3 miles in triple digit temps like we've been having recently will kill them quicker than anything else.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

We have still have a lot of free range cattle around here.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I am very curious which techniques one would use in dressage to get a horse to lift its feet higher. That's a new one to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Keep in mind, unlike a bison, a LOT of cattle ranchers also use public pastures or rent out land (up here anyway). My grandpa has rented his land out for several years now for a herd of 20 cattle to come and calve during summer. Any doctoring has to be done with horse and rope, they aren't going to build doctoring chutes everywhere.

Likewise, the neighbours have a herd of bison. Due to the sheer size of a bison, they simply aren't mass produced like cattle are. There isn't the need to have to tag them, brand them, or routinely assist with birthing like you do with cows thanks to centuries of domesticated screwed up breeding. They are MUCH better equipped to still handle being left mostly to their own devices. And as stated, they're not a creature you want to transport much, so all bison owners I know keep them strictly at home where they have access to all equipment.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> I am very curious which techniques one would use in dressage to get a horse to lift its feet higher. That's a new one to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed.

I've heard about things of this nature in the gaited world, but not dressage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Sunny said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I've heard about things of this nature in the gaited world, but not dressage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not saying dressage doesn't have it's skeletons - it absolutely has practices I don't agree with ... but I've never heard this one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> Not saying dressage doesn't have it's skeletons - it absolutely has practices I don't agree with ... but I've never heard this one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, I agree completely! It did sound like I was suggesting that bad practices don't take place in dressage, although that is certainly not how I feel. There are bad apples in every sport.

I was thinking along the lines of soring, which I have never heard of happening in the dressage ring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

If I am not mistaken, there is a technique that uses boots to put immense pressure on the leg until raised. I believe it was made illegal in the actual arena, but some people still use this technique. Done improperly, it could cause pain. Am I wrong? (honestly asking here, but I was informed a long time ago that this was a legitamate technique.)


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I can not even picture how a boot that puts pressure until the foot is raised would work.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

Apparently, they put the boots on tight. The horse prances to try to get away from the pressure.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

But the pressure would not go away when the leg is lifted.

And dressage people do not want their horses to prance.  Nothing about a free moving shoulder = prancing with your lower leg snapping up and down.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

In saddleseat, you would use a roller band to encourage the upward movement. Some people use 'stretchies' to get that snappy knee action working. I've never heard of it in the dressage ring though....I wouldn't think any knee action was desired in dressage.


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Rodeo to dressage and saddleseat? Wow, I obviously haen't checked on this thread for a while!! lol


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Hooves don't compress much.... So a tight boot wouldn't bother a horse much, I don't think - if it did, it would hinder natural movement. We don't want prancy horses. 
Sorry, but I think I'm gonna have to make like a Mythbuster and call this one busted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Mythbuster


Love that show!

And you are no fun. How dare you claim that torture really does not happen.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I have nearly caught up on all the episodes on Netflix now with this whole stupid surgery recovery. I love that show!
Anyways..! There certainly are practices in dressage I don't agree with and I wish didn't happen. But this one is a little nonsensical - hooves are rigid, and if poking nails through the wall won't hurt the hoof, I really fail to see how a boot could be applied then tightened enough to compress the wall to cause discomfort. 
I could be wrong, but I've personally never ever heard of this practice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Wouldn't those darn metal clips with teeth that easyboots have cause the same pain then? They bite into the hoof wall.


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I have nearly caught up on all the episodes on Netflix now with this whole stupid surgery recovery. I love that show!
> Anyways..! There certainly are practices in dressage I don't agree with and I wish didn't happen. But this one is a little nonsensical - hooves are rigid, and if poking nails through the wall won't hurt the hoof, I really fail to see how a boot could be applied then tightened enough to compress the wall to cause discomfort.
> I could be wrong, but I've personally never ever heard of this practice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hooves are rigid?? Really?? I thought they were squishy :lol:
No, I was refering to boots like brushing boots and medicine/trail boots. That's what supposedly causes the lift/knee action and the high raise.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Have you missed the point that has been posted by more than one person that dressage people do not want knee action?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

We don't want our horses to look like Saddlebreds with knees snapping up every stride, every gait. We need them to come in and out of "higher knee action" movements easily, and we don't want them flinging their legs about at the canter. I can't see how soring would enhance a dressage horse's gait, especially since soring is something that has to be done consistently to get results. 
No leg, no dressage horse.
In addition, one can't compete with wraps on - I'm relatively sure that's been a rule for a long time, so it can't have been used in the ring. Beyond that.... what sort of wrap intensifies pressure (without blowing tendons) and releases when the leg is off the ground? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

That's why I thought it was cruel. And, I do believe I mentioned in a previous post something about most of it being illegal in the ring anyway??? However, I do respect your argument about not wanting the horses to resemble gaited horses. I wasn't arguing- I was simply mentioning a technique that I thought was unecessary reguardless of when, how, and by whom it was used. Now, I am also going to mention that this subject is completely off topic of the thread at hand. So, if we are done with this, I suggest we get back on subject. fftopic:


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_Pot calling kettle black me thinks..._


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Meh personally I'm glad to clear up any misconceptions when they're presented so that the misinformation isn't spread further.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

I meant the off topic thing JDI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I know  just thought I'd affirm my position and reason for posing to SA. BBs have a tendency to drift on and off topic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SAsamone (Nov 5, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Meh personally I'm glad to clear up any misconceptions when they're presented so that the misinformation isn't spread further.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


agreed, and i thank you for correcting me. It was something I was told, and I had seen at one time, and thought it was used more widely. Thankfully those people were just idiots


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

:rofl: Gawd -not the idiots -screams like little girl:hide:


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## McuesHiSierra (Apr 10, 2011)

I agree with Velvet and Isuel. Rodeo is what people like me do, its in our blood! If you are concerned about the animals being abused please understand there is no need to be. We take pride in the care that goes in to each and every animal and there is no way we would let anything happen to any of these beautiful animals.


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## supermissdeedee (May 31, 2011)

Thanks guys!


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## Thyme (Sep 4, 2010)

In my experience watching majority of the teens in junior rodeo around her use shank bits with chains and are constitantly balance and bracing back on the bit, while kicking and whipping their horse.
that is why i think it is abuse
but i know good riders out there
so I dont think the is it the Rodeo that is the abuse
just how some people ride their poor horses


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

This. It kind of makes me roll my eyes sometimes when people are so convinced it's the bronc and bull riding events that are so abusive, and yet half the people barrel racing or riding horses in events need to be shot for their atrocious horsemanship skills and complete lack of anything even remotely resembling feel or compassion for the animal being ridden.

Abuse happens in all events, it really is something that is almost exclusively localized with individual PEOPLE then it is a definitive sport being abusive.


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## Stillstandin (Nov 10, 2009)

I grew up in the ranching community and still care for cattle every day. I did the rodeo thing for over 20 years as did my brothers. The rough stock animals are treated extremely well, they have to be, they are the livelihood for the stock contractors. In any sanctioned event the care and treatment of the animals is of utmost concern. 
Yes in barrel racing, and also in the Team Penning and Sorting that I compete in now you do see atrocious riding and lack of care for the horses. But in the long run most of these riders don't last...they can't unless they have the money to keep replacing horses when the ones they ride break down or just quit working. But you see this in many different disciplines. Many of these people don't care to change nor are they interested in any advice.
In the roping events, it really does have its roots in ranching. We do have to rope cattle to treat them, it is a fact of life. But we do it with the best interests of our animals in mind, these animals are our paycheck. Without them we don't survive. We do what we have to do to care for them as efficiently and with as little stress as possible.


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