# Making a horse afraid



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I had the pleasure of riding a different horse today. HIs problem is he likes to spin and run and if he can't run he backs into anything or side passes into brush or anything else. He looses all focus and just tries to move his feet. He is a danger and you never know when he is about to explode. He rides in a gag bit and is hard mouthed.
I rode him and you could be approaching something as simple as a rock pile and suddenly he will spin and run and if you prevent him from running he slams you into anything he can. He did this 3 times to me in about the 1st mile.
Each time he did this I hauled him down after the spin, slammed the spurs as hard as I can while yelling at him. Again I would slam him as hard as I could. I ride with totally loose reins,no contact so he is really free to spin.

After the 3rd spin he settle right down and continued the ride for the next hour without a single incident. I know of 2 places that his owner could not get him to go past but both times I touched him with the spurs ,steadied him with the reins and he walked confidently past these obsticles.
I know the next time I take him out he will settle right away. He is more afraid of me then of the things we run into.

This horse is not really afraid, it is a habit that he got into because of a weak rider, one afraid to put the fear into him. By being rough, and I mean as rough as I can he learns to stop playing games and settles into his work and by settling you actually leave him free to do his job, a looser rein and more freedom.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> This horse is not really afraid, it is a habit that he got into because of a weak rider, one afraid to put the fear into him. By being rough, and I mean as rough as I can he learns to stop playing games and settles into his work and by settling you actually leave him free to do his job, a looser rein and more freedom.


I don't know if this is necessarily what I would agree with. I would prefer to think that the rider has to be confident enough to know what a horses limits are and in turn make the horse confident and look past its fear. A truly fearful horse would completely shut down no matter what you did.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

This is the first time I rode this horse but I have ridden with his owner alot in the past. This horse is a danger and all she can do is follow. To lead is a problem. If she is leading the horse just spins out of control at every turn. I rode this horse and after 3 stupid spins he totally quit, settle down and was a good boy. No spins, no tight reins. I even picked things I knew she couldn't get him past with his spinning and running and he passed them all without incident. I even took him into a cluttered farm yard and while he did try to duck out a bump with the spurs had him walking through without acting up.
I would like to know how you would do it better?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> I don't know if this is necessarily what I would agree with. I would prefer to think that the rider has to be confident enough to know what a horses limits are and in turn make the horse confident and look past its fear. A truly fearful horse would completely shut down no matter what you did.


I can't speak for Riosdad, but he says right in his post that this horse wasn't fearful, but more taking advantage of weak riders. I would not take nearly as aggressive an approach, but then again I have much more time to work on the problem since I only have my one horse. With the "putting you on" horses, I take a more passive-aggressive approach. I won't force the horse past the questionable object, but I won't let him leave either. I'll one rein stop his butt off until he finally decides I'm nuts and moves calmly past the object. I literally sat and read a book once when my horse refused to go past a wood pile. We sat there for an hour before he gave up and moved on. I definitely agree that the rider cannot back down once the situation has come into play. Riding is gold. Being a passenger is dangerous.


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

I am just curious to know are you working with her horse and also working with her? Showing her how to work successfully with a horse like this Or have you told her to forget it ....move on to something more suitable for her confidence level?


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

Does the owner of the horse know you are calling them a weak rider or is this just something you post on a public website because you could spur the horse, or haul it down, as you call it and make it go places someone else could not...... I usually find your posts helpful but to me this one- not so much.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I do not need my horse to be afraid of me; I need him to be obedient. He is not allowed to come out of a frame (read: round) to spook at anything. He is not allowed to change gait or bend without my say-so. I control his hindquarter, ribcage, and his shoulder, and he has his attention on me. His head is his to do what he pleases with - but he's expected to be round, so his head is round with his back, but I do not control his head; it goes there naturally because he's carrying himself correctly. Besides, if I control his shoulder, his head has to follow. The horse's head is just an ornament, in the grand scheme of things. Anyways, if I control the shoulder, rib, and hindquarter (through exercising control, NOT making my horse fear me) then he cannot spook. 
If you have these things, you do not need the horse to "fear" you. I find fear can work against you in the long rung... Fear only works as long as you are the scariest thing around - which you can't always be....
What does it take? Correct, confident riding.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I do not need my horse to be afraid of me; I need him to be obedient. He is not allowed to come out of a frame (read: round) to spook at anything. He is not allowed to change gait or bend without my say-so. I control his hindquarter, ribcage, and his shoulder, and he has his attention on me. His head is his to do what he pleases with - but he's expected to be round, so his head is round with his back, but I do not control his head; it goes there naturally because he's carrying himself correctly. Besides, if I control his shoulder, his head has to follow. The horse's head is just an ornament, in the grand scheme of things. Anyways, if I control the shoulder, rib, and hindquarter (through exercising control, NOT making my horse fear me) then he cannot spook.
> If you have these things, you do not need the horse to "fear" you. I find fear can work against you in the long rung... Fear only works as long as you are the scariest thing around - which you can't always be....
> What does it take? Correct, confident riding.


 your post made me smile, thats something my mom would say.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> This is the first time I rode this horse but I have ridden with his owner alot in the past. This horse is a danger and all she can do is follow. To lead is a problem. If she is leading the horse just spins out of control at every turn. I rode this horse and after 3 stupid spins he totally quit, settle down and was a good boy. No spins, no tight reins. I even picked things I knew she couldn't get him past with his spinning and running and he passed them all without incident. I even took him into a cluttered farm yard and while he did try to duck out a bump with the spurs had him walking through without acting up.
> I would like to know how you would do it better?



My point was that I think your use of the word fear is not correct. The horse was not afraid of you and your spurs and your yelling. You let it know that you weren't going to put up with crap, sure, but fear? No. Have you ever seen a fainting goat? Its a neurological defect, but when the goat gets scared, its body freezes up. The same happens with a truly afraid horse. You made enough commotion to bring the horse out of its "fight or flight" mode, and then you were there to provide a stable and level headed presence to keep it moving forward.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I do not need my horse to be afraid of me; I need him to be obedient. He is not allowed to come out of a frame (read: round) to spook at anything. He is not allowed to change gait or bend without my say-so. I control his hindquarter, ribcage, and his shoulder, and he has his attention on me. His head is his to do what he pleases with - but he's expected to be round, so his head is round with his back, but I do not control his head; it goes there naturally because he's carrying himself correctly. Besides, if I control his shoulder, his head has to follow. The horse's head is just an ornament, in the grand scheme of things. Anyways, if I control the shoulder, rib, and hindquarter (through exercising control, NOT making my horse fear me) then he cannot spook.
> If you have these things, you do not need the horse to "fear" you. I find fear can work against you in the long rung... Fear only works as long as you are the scariest thing around - which you can't always be....
> What does it take? Correct, confident riding.


Excellent post! I agree 150%! And the beauty of it is that it works for the truly spooky horses as well as the ones who have learned to "spook" out of habit.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sometimes you just have to stick a spur in the horse and whip it where the colt sucks. I was helping some guys I know gather some cattle one day and the country was real steep and rocky so they brought an extra horse because inevitably a horse would give out or lose a shoe. My horse lost a shoe and pretty soon was sore footed so they offered me the spare horse. Knowing these guys like I do, I knew there was a reason that he was the "spare" horse. I put my saddle and bridle on him and my buddy says "Can't be too nice to him or he's not worth a ****". I didn't think much of it untill I had been babying him along for about 5 minutes and he tried to buck me off. I jerked his head up and spurred him in the guts, said a few bad words and off we rode. I got along with that horse great the rest of the day. Sometimes you don't have the luxury of bonding or ground work. Sometimes you just have to cowboy up and get the job done. I will say that horse was better when I got off than when I got on him.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I disagree more with the analysis of the horse's problem that the solution described by RiosDad. If the horse was truly frightened, this method would have turned the horse into a more fearful, neurotic, ruined mess. Painful punishment would convince the truly fearful horse that there was something very much to be frightened of and made the problem worse. Since the horse was, as RiosDad said later, spoiled by a timid, tentative rider, then riding it forward assertively, and not accepting the spooking, spinning or backing as an alternative was exactly the right thing. I'd also add that when riding this type of horse, it's critical not to discipline out of fear or frustration, but to apply enough aid to get the horse to go forward, then immediately release/relax the pressure/praise until the horse sucks back again and then amp up the aids and insist on forward again. I will also say the initial process of convincing the horse life is easier out in front of the leg is sometimes not pretty, depending on how confirmed the behavior is. 

Determining whether or not the horse is truly fearful or has simply been allowed to suck back by a tentative rider requires some horsemanlike tact and is crucial to how you address the problem.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

I quite like maura's post here.
I can't say I agree with the concept of making the horse afraid of you in itself, but the actual reaction described sounds pretty alright to me if the horse was truly not afraid and doing it out of habit. I wasn't there, but I do believe it's very safe to take RiosDad's word for it as a respected horseman.
Personally I might give a similar response if necessary but see it more as his leader quickly getting his attention and putting him in his place. I don't like the thought process of "I have to be the scariest thing around" either, I much prefer the idea of "I have to be the leader and will do what's necessary to keep that position", as any lead horse would out in a herd. Respect over fear, though sometimes respect has to be gained in a bit of a messy way.
But maybe that's what RiosDad had in mind, anyway...

I hope I'm making sense either way, it's 2am and I shouldn't be awake but here I am on the horse forum...haha


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## Shalani (Jul 16, 2009)

I had been babying him along for about 5 minutes and he tried to buck me off. I jerked his head up and spurred him in the guts, said a few bad words and off we rode. I got along with that horse great the rest of the day. Sometimes you don't have the luxury of bonding or ground work. Sometimes you just have to cowboy up and get the job done. I will say that horse was better when I got off than when I got on him.[/QUOTE]


Yes , but there is a difference between putting a horse in line ^^^
( I would of done the same )

And putting the fear into him, you need to be firm but patient when ur horse is fearful of something not flog it and make the situation worse, which it will be in the long run


With fear there is no trust.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Shalani said:


> And putting the fear into him, *you need to be firm but patient when ur horse is fearful* of something not flog it and make the situation worse, which it will be in the long run
> 
> 
> With fear there is no trust.


Fearful, yes. Rio was saying the horse was spoiled not afraid. This was a behavioral problem and it was dealt with in the proper way for that horse at that moment. Not necessarily for every horse. Rio's experience is knowing the difference.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I will not waste my time riding other peoples horses day after day. You have a problem I will ride the horse ONCE and get him past whatever issues he has. I won't dink around lunging the horse, pleading with the horse. I am going to just force the horse to behave and he is just messing with his owner , tried messing with me and it didn't work.

Within 3 spins he gave it up and walked out nicely and didn't try his crap again.
I treated him the same way I treat a barn sour horse. They are not afraid, they are only pulling this because they can.
Take away the can part and they settle down into nice horses.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Citrus said:


> Does the owner of the horse know you are calling them a weak rider or is this just something you post on a public website because you could spur the horse, or haul it down, as you call it and make it go places someone else could not...... I usually find your posts helpful but to me this one- not so much.


The lady is a parreli rider and she use to not sleep nights worrying about where I was going to take her, what I was going to ask her to do. She was terrified of running the roads with me but I always stay beside her, running Rio between her and danger. It has just gotten to the point where even running bush trails she can not lead. She always has the same scenery, my back and Rio's butt. I want he out front at least half the time.

I wouldn't call he weak to her face, I won't insult her like that.

She takes lessons right next door, it is 100 yards between our driveways and she LEADS the horse to the neighbours arean and we cut the grass between the 2 properties and she can ride over the lawn to get to her lesson and she doesn't, she leads him????????


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I would have done the same, but I think people tend to misinterpret the word "fear". Remember, a horse is giving the most attention to what it is afraid of, so if I am on a horse that is clearly giving more attention to a mailbox, or a puddle like the horse I was on today, then obviously I am not being taken seriously as a leader. However, you can fear something without being afraid of it. A God fearing man isn't afraid of God, but they have a healthy respect and loyalty to Him and they want to follow. As a teenager, I definately feared my parents, not as in afraid to interact, but more in a not wanting to disapoint. Although, as all teenagers do, I had my rebellious moments, I knew that the line that they set was one that was never moved.

You naturally fear something that is more powerful than you, something that has more confidence than you. I remember all of my trainers growing up, I remember needing their approval, not wanting to disapoint them. However, there always came a time that I outgrew them, and suddenly, although I still respected them, I no longer needed them to show me where to go, in which case I begin to seek a new leader. As a person (or a horse) grows in their own experience, they begin to own that confidence and the ability to be a leader to others. Take a horse without that ability and give them an insecure person, and yes, you have a trainwreck of a situation that needs to be reminded of that "fear" of that higher power.

The other day, I was leading a horse that we took in for rehab. I had a dressage whip with me, as I had been riding, and we came up to a puddle, he refused to walk through. I started with the easy approach, encouraging gently forward. This horse had been trained to think he has an opinion, and although he had options to try of forward through the puddle, to the right, or back up, he chose to try and drive over top of me. I stood my ground and made him think again about that decision. The human part of me felt guilty about that action at first, but when all was said and done, he had no fear of that whip. I had reacted as a lead horse would if he invaded their space or ignored their drive, so he respected that. He was more confident, relaxed, and obedient. He began looking directly to me instead of past me, trusting wherever I pointed him without balking. 

Horses communicate through body language and physical reinforcement. The horse that makes nasty faces and never follows through is seen as a unconfident pushover. The insecure horse that beats on everyone is sight is not followed, but rather avoided by the rest of the herd. Its being able to find that balance that shows the leadership in both horses and people. Its being able to match that timing and consistency, showing that you are not something so rough that you should be avoided, but something with the confidence to think things through and the ability to follow through, that you have what it takes to be something to be feared.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

FlitterBug said:


> I would have done the same, but I think people tend to misinterpret the word "fear". Remember, a horse is giving the most attention to what it is afraid of, so if I am on a horse that is clearly giving more attention to a mailbox, or a puddle like the horse I was on today, then obviously I am not being taken seriously as a leader. However, you can fear something without being afraid of it. A God fearing man isn't afraid of God, but they have a healthy respect and loyalty to Him and they want to follow. As a teenager, I definately feared my parents, not as in afraid to interact, but more in a not wanting to disapoint. Although, as all teenagers do, I had my rebellious moments, I knew that the line that they set was one that was never moved.
> 
> You naturally fear something that is more powerful than you, something that has more confidence than you. I remember all of my trainers growing up, I remember needing their approval, not wanting to disapoint them. However, there always came a time that I outgrew them, and suddenly, although I still respected them, I no longer needed them to show me where to go, in which case I begin to seek a new leader. As a person (or a horse) grows in their own experience, they begin to own that confidence and the ability to be a leader to others. Take a horse without that ability and give them an insecure person, and yes, you have a trainwreck of a situation that needs to be reminded of that "fear" of that higher power.
> 
> ...


Fantastic post Flitterbug
I think more than anything it comes down to timing. A well placed whack at the right time will get a lot more results than constant nagging at the wrong time


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

RiosDad: I completely agree with your methods on horses like this!
When I was about twelve years old or so, I used to own a green, 13 hand Welsh pony named Rocky. My parents had bought him for quite the pretty penny because of what he would be worth in the hunter ring. I STILL have yet to see a pony that likes to take advantage of his rider as much as him. Although I was really tiny, I had to beat the stuffing out of him to even get him to canter. I used to roller spurs, and a short dressage whip to get him to go anywhere. I swear that I would whack as hard as I could on that pony with the whip, and he would do nothing but shake his head at me and buck. I didn't have a very good seat back then, but I most certainly developed one! After being thrown into jumps, dumped on gravel, and ran over, I was about to give up. But then I realized something: That pony had taken advantage of my fear much too many times. It was time for me to buck up, and make him respect me in the way he should. 
By then, I had developed a much better seat. From that next ride on, Rocky and I were the best of friends. But getting there was most certainly not easy at all!


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Great post, Flitter. 

Kevinshorse's posted something awhile ago from a trainer he liked, and instead of using the terms "alpha" or "dominant" he used terms like "leader" and "respect" and used an analogy that you might love to visit the relative who is sweet to you and plys you with treats, but you won't look to them for guidance in a difficult situation. Your role, to your horse, is to be that trusted leader in the difficult situation that the horse looks to for guidance. So, in the scenario described above, the owner was the treat lady, and RiosDad was the respected leader who told the horse to get over himself, get on with his job and stop making such a darn fuss. 

A couple of things that are different for me, given the situation and discipline. For myself and my horses, I would have used a stick not spurs to reinforce the forward. I believe, and some of our Western riders can educate me further, the use of spurs is different according to discipline. I use spurs mostly to refine my leg aid, to ask for more rounding of the back and for lateral work. I rarely if ever use them for punishment. Part of that, I believe, is because of the difference in leg position - I ride with most of my leg in constant contact with the horse's side, while a Western rider has his lower leg flexed somewhat away from the horse's side. I can engage a spur with an extra hard squeeze, or lifting my heel or turning my toe slightly, so I only use them when I can use them with subtlety. A Western rider needs to make a bigger, more deliberate move to engage the spur, and seems to use them for a larger range of uses. 

I carry, and have always carried a big, heavy bat. I carry it on everything I ride. If someone tells me their horse isn't used to it or doesn't like it, I spend a few minutes desensitizing the horse to it and carry it anyway. The "doesn't like it" usually means the horse has trained the rider not to use it. (Desensitizing/teaching respect for a stick, lunge whip or similiar is an often neglected part of training, IMO)

One of my pet peeves is when a rider carries one of those short cute sticks and proceeds to tap-tap-tap and annoy the heck out of the horse with one. If you need to use it to discipline a horse, just DO IT, get it over with, ride forward, release/praise and go back to calm confident riding. 

RiosDad mentioned riding on loose reins/no contact. Even though the various sub-disciplines I ride require contact, if you don't have forward, you don't have true contact. The second I encounter this kind of problem, I abandon any pretense of contact until the horse is in front of my leg again. This also prevents any possibility of clashing aids or me unintentionally restricting a horse.

However, having said all this, forcing a horse that is truly, physically fearful will not have a good result and will increase the paniced behavior. Horses that are truly fearful need desensitizing, tact, reassurance and a long, slow program of building up trust by conquering small obstacles and challenges. 

Riders like Rios' friend/client assume all horses are physically fearful and spoil a lot of horses by feeding treats, babying them and leading when they should ride; however, an equally diasasterous mistake is assuming that a truly physically fearful horse just needs to be ridden forward agressively.

Horsemanship lies in knowing the difference.


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

maura said:


> One of my pet peeves is when a rider carries one of those short cute sticks and proceeds to tap-tap-tap and annoy the heck out of the horse with one. If you need to use it to discipline a horse, just DO IT, get it over with, ride forward, release/praise and go back to calm confident riding.


Yes, exactly. I see so many timid riders do this - it really frustrates me.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

maura said:


> I disagree more with the analysis of the horse's problem that the solution described by RiosDad. If the horse was truly frightened, this method would have turned the horse into a more fearful, neurotic, ruined mess. Painful punishment would convince the truly fearful horse that there was something very much to be frightened of and made the problem worse. Since the horse was, as RiosDad said later, spoiled by a timid, tentative rider, then riding it forward assertively, and not accepting the spooking, spinning or backing as an alternative was exactly the right thing. I'd also add that when riding this type of horse, it's critical not to discipline out of fear or frustration, but to apply enough aid to get the horse to go forward, then immediately release/relax the pressure/praise until the horse sucks back again and then amp up the aids and insist on forward again. I will also say the initial process of convincing the horse life is easier out in front of the leg is sometimes not pretty, depending on how confirmed the behavior is.
> 
> Determining whether or not the horse is truly fearful or has simply been allowed to suck back by a tentative rider requires some horsemanlike tact and is crucial to how you address the problem.


Excellent post. I have no problem to smack the butt of the -spoiled- horse if it tries to do whatever it wants to do and just take an advantage of me. I would never do it on nervous horse though.


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

RiosDad said:


> The lady is a parreli rider and she use to not sleep nights worrying about where I was going to take her, what I was going to ask her to do. She was terrified of running the roads with me but I always stay beside her, running Rio between her and danger. It has just gotten to the point where even running bush trails she can not lead. She always has the same scenery, my back and Rio's butt. I want he out front at least half the time.
> 
> I wouldn't call he weak to her face, I won't insult her like that.
> 
> She takes lessons right next door, it is 100 yards between our driveways and she LEADS the horse to the neighbours arean and we cut the grass between the 2 properties and she can ride over the lawn to get to her lesson and she doesn't, she leads him????????


I wondered if this wasn't a way of saying Parelli is no good, look what I can do. I don't think there is anything to prove and yet that is exactly what I read as going on here. I see a lot of ego in both the original post and this one. Of course it would insult someone to call them weak to their face, but it also shows a lack of character to post something publically saying the problem is a weak rider but see how good I am....

Are you suggesting that now she won't lose sleep at night because you fixed her problem? No one has that much power.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

If she's a weak rider, then she's a weak rider. There are strong riders, and there are weak riders. There is nothing wrong with saying that in my opinion.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

Sometimes a well timed "over/under" will work wonders and is exactly what the Doctor ordered.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

While "fear" (in the sense of man fears God) has its place, I'd rather say "respect." 
My horse respects me, and I respect him. I am low man on the totem pole though (low meaning I am more important - know your totem poles!) and so what I say goes. He is allowed to move freely under me, but he must stay in position, and must stay at the gait I have chosen. I will not bother him while he is correct. If he is correct, my body is quiet, I am respecting him for being correct by not being a bother. If he comes out of being correct, he will be corrected, using an "ask, tell, demand" method - keep in mind that progression with such method can be very very quick, it is situation dependent. Once he is correct again, I become quiet. 
If I am an active rider, engaged in what's going on with my horse, and my horse is correct and listening to me, he doesn't get the chance to spook. If he's spooking, he's out of position, and his attention isn't on me - so even before he's spooked, he's given me some warning (i.e. ears not listening to me, head up, tensing, becoming un-round) so I have a chance to correct it before the horse blows up. As soon as something isn't correct, it is addressed and corrected.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

goldilockz said:


> If she's a weak rider, then she's a weak rider. There are strong riders, and there are weak riders. There is nothing wrong with saying that in my opinion.


The majority of riders are weak. I run into very few people that can really ride and the includes alot of higher up riders. Funny but even some very accomplished riders prefer me to get on a horse first before they attempt to ride it. They want me to take the kinks out of it first.:shock::shock:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Citrus said:


> Are you suggesting that now she won't lose sleep at night because you fixed her problem? No one has that much power.


I took her on as a riding partner 2 years ago. Everyone in the area know my horse and myself. We are a constant site running the highways around town. While people don't know my name if I mention the red horse running the roads they immediatley recognize me. I ran roads for 17 years on a red horse and then switched to a big grey.. 
This lady use to see me and envy me running all over the country. We met up at a new boarding barn and I asked her if she wanted to run with me. She jumped at the chance and since then she has run roads, something she would never consider before, she runs in town, parks green belts, you name it I take her. She will follow me anywhere. She has faith.
About 3 or 4 months earlier the horse started this spinning and running into things whenever she led and it got to the point that she couldn't go 100 yards before the horse pulled this spin crap. She yelled , she tried be tough but he had her number so she meekly fell in behind me and had a relaxed ride.
I just offered to take him myself and maybe take the kinks out of him. He tried this crap on me and it took 3 fights before he just gave up and gave me a nice relaxed ride.
This is a 18 year old TW, brave but just decided he didn't want to lead so he pulls this crap on mom.

No I will not hurt her feelings and tell her she is weak. I will continue to ride with her, protect her all I can and hopefully have a fun summer with lots of fun rides.

I would rather deal with problems like this alone and not with mom around. As for letting her ride my young guy and I ride hers?? Rio is extremely person, sort of like my underwear. ONly I get to wear them:lol::lol:
Nobody gets to ride my boy but we have a really nice quarterhorse, well trained and I would like her to ride him some times and let me rider hers. I will lead every step of the ride on him.

Why would I want to hurt her feelings by saying she is weak. I say it here but she isn't on this forum. I am talking about how to deal with crap not talking behind someones back.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Fabulous last post there Rios. I'd say she is fortunate to have stumbled into the opportunity to be riding with you and have the opportunity to have you work with her boy.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Citrus said:


> Are you suggesting that now she won't lose sleep at night because you fixed her problem? No one has that much power.


 
I agree.

Different things work for different horses. Yelling and spurring may well get someone else seriously hurt - or worse.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

mls said:


> I agree.
> 
> Different things work for different horses. Yelling and spurring may well get someone else seriously hurt - or worse.


 Agreed, mls.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> The majority of riders are weak. I run into very few people that can really ride and the includes alot of higher up riders. Funny but even some very accomplished riders prefer me to get on a horse first before they attempt to ride it. They want me to take the kinks out of it first.:shock::shock:


May I ask who these "weak" riders are, or what discipline their specialty was? What kind of context were you asked to ride first? 
I.e. I could say that my "higher up," "accomplished" coach that I worked with for a while asked me to ride my difficult horse first... but that's because she wanted to see exactly what he pulled undersaddle on me (the normal rider) before she stepped in.
I'm not saying that all "higher up" people are great riders; there are a few in my area alone that I wouldn't let even touch my horse, but .. how do they get to the top by being weak?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

RD,

I was curious when you say weak, do you mean unable to sit a bolt or buck or do you mean, timid as in, not really brave enough to fight a battle?

Was she with you when you rode her horse or did you take him out alone? I only ask because sometimes _seeing_ someone else discipline your horse, or ride him through something is enough to give a person borrowed courage. Once in a while, it's just a matter of showing the horse you are not just a passenger. It sounds like in this case the horse is used to having a passenger and not a rider.

The question will be if the owner can muster up the courage to argue her point with the horse....


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> RD,
> 
> I was curious when you say weak, do you mean unable to sit a bolt or buck or do you mean, timid as in, not really brave enough to fight a battle?
> 
> ...


Excellent point - just seeing that the horse CAN be pushed through x,y or z and seeing that what they fear will happen (blow up, whatever) didn't actually happen can then empower them to do the same. Actually knowing that something works makes it less scary to try.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

"Give the man a fish and he will eat for a day -- teach the man to fish and he will eat for life."

Perhaps teaching this woman how to deal with her horse in a productive way (if she's timid, then the "spur 'im up" method probably won't appeal to her, so you'll have to think of a different method) will allow her to enjoy her horse without you having to "spur 'im up" every once in a while...?


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> About 3 or 4 months earlier the horse started this spinning and running into things whenever she led and it got to the point that she couldn't go 100 yards before the horse pulled this spin crap. She yelled , she tried be tough but he had her number so she meekly fell in behind me and had a relaxed ride.


I think I'd want to try to understand why the horse got into doing the spinning etc and what it gets from it. Seems like a lot of wasted energy and not much fun for the horse.

It appears - again from general psychology but horse-specific ignorance - that you masked the problem with a short-term fix. That is, the horse learned that with you riding, you're going to make the spinning less pleasant than just going ahead. But when it goes back to being ridden by the owner, is the horse eventually going to realize "Hey, I couldn't get away with playing my silly games with HIM, but I CAN with HER!"?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

jamesqf said:


> It appears - again from general psychology but horse-specific ignorance - that you masked the problem with a short-term fix. That is, the horse learned that with you riding, you're going to make the spinning less pleasant than just going ahead. But when it goes back to being ridden by the owner, is the horse eventually going to realize "Hey, I couldn't get away with playing my silly games with HIM, but I CAN with HER!"?


 
Oh so very totally agree.

It's easy for those of us experienced to 'fix' a problem. I don't care if the term leader or alpha is the current PC term. The deal is the horses I care for KNOW they can't get by with being naughty with me. But I do not want the horses being naughty with my boarders either. So I help them understand how to deal with the problem. Once, twice, 10 times - until I can help them and have success and the problem resolved. Not masked - resolved.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Even with a horse that is truely afraid you have to put enough pressure on the horse that it would rather go past whatever it is afraid of than stay with the pressure you are applying. I give my young horses more time to look things over at the start but the theory is the same. If they go forward there is no pressure, if they don't go at all there is some pressure and if they go backwards there is increased pressure and at no time do they turn away from the scary obstacle. It is a pretty simple escalation that the horses seem to understand and learn from quickly. Pretty soon they just slow down and kink thier neck then after a while they don't slow down or even turn thier heads. 

All the NH stuff where they go through hanging tarps and over bridges and over tarps on the ground is really just meant to teach the horse to overcome fear and use it's mind. Walking on a tarp is not actually going to teach a horse a usefull skill that you will use every day. The purpose is to teach the horse and the rider that they can see something scary and go ahead and go through it. It doesn't matter what is scary if your horse is prepared to know how to handle scary things.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> May I ask who these "weak" riders are, or what discipline their specialty was? What kind of context were you asked to ride first?
> I.e. I could say that my "higher up," "accomplished" coach that I worked with for a while asked me to ride my difficult horse first... but that's because she wanted to see exactly what he pulled undersaddle on me (the normal rider) before she stepped in.
> I'm not saying that all "higher up" people are great riders; there are a few in my area alone that I wouldn't let even touch my horse, but .. how do they get to the top by being weak?


I haven't run into anyone in a long time that would say saddle up a 4 year old stud colt , never handled before and just climp aboard and turn him loose. I don't know anyone who can really break a bolting problem. Sure I ride with girls that run endurance and do the 50's but alot of encouragement comes from me. One girl who got her 1000 mile pin would cry at 40 miles and I had to joke and keep her spirits up.
One girl got an endurance championship in the late 80's . She was my riding partner but I still had to baby sit her alot. The guys in the barn are useless. The owner of our barn owns 6 horses, high end horses but she would never climb on some of the horses I ride.
If a new OTTB would come to the barn and they wanted to see how it went I would always be the guy who tried him first and then if he didn't explode, do something stupid the girls would ride him. I might only ride him this one time but I would rather see him buck me off then one of them.:lol::lol:.

I know no one in say SMrobs catagorie or Wild spot.
I know lots of high end ladies and horses but to be seen running a bush trail is way beyond them.. One girl was an excellent jumper and her mare had to go say a mile, straight across country and the trail ran straight from our barn to this barn, I run that trial almost daily and pass through the barn yard of a top barn. She couldn't find a trailer to move her for a few days and she wanted to go right now. I suggested she ride over and I would accompany her??? She wouldn't take her jumper out of the enclosed arena so I threw my saddle on the mare and rode her over to the stable. She met me there;. It was a no brainer but I guess I am just to stupid to know you can't ride an arena horse through a trial.
This lady wons and shows a gorgous mare, 17-3. She shows Trilliam, she is 30 . She uses the neighbours arena about 200 yards from our barn. It is cut grass, the tow lawns flow together but she never rides the mare over, she saddle and leads her. I have never seen her ride out of an enclosed area?? Nice lady, knowledge but she sticks to the show ring.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> I haven't run into anyone in a long time that would say saddle up a 4 year old stud colt , never handled before and just climp aboard and turn him loose. I don't know anyone who can really break a bolting problem. Sure I ride with girls that run endurance and do the 50's but alot of encouragement comes from me. One girl who got her 1000 mile pin would cry at 40 miles and I had to joke and keep her spirits up.


You are the "only" person you know that can do all of that? Interesting.

As far as endurance - how many miles do you have recorded with AERC?


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

mls said:


> You are the "only" person you know that can do all of that? Interesting.
> 
> As far as endurance - how many miles do you have recorded with AERC?


 
You'll have to cut him some slack MLS, he's from Ontario. They think they're the centre of the universe.:lol:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> I haven't run into anyone in a long time that would say saddle up a 4 year old stud colt , never handled before and just climp aboard and turn him loose. I don't know anyone who can really break a bolting problem. Sure I ride with girls that run endurance and do the 50's but alot of encouragement comes from me. One girl who got her 1000 mile pin would cry at 40 miles and I had to joke and keep her spirits up.
> One girl got an endurance championship in the late 80's . She was my riding partner but I still had to baby sit her alot. The guys in the barn are useless. The owner of our barn owns 6 horses, high end horses but she would never climb on some of the horses I ride.
> If a new OTTB would come to the barn and they wanted to see how it went I would always be the guy who tried him first and then if he didn't explode, do something stupid the girls would ride him. I might only ride him this one time but I would rather see him buck me off then one of them.:lol::lol:.
> 
> ...


I think I mis-communicated my question, let me try again:
What big-time riders (by name, you can PM me if you would like) and what disciplines do they "major" in, refused to get on a horse before you "rode the kinks out"? I personally know many BNTs who will get on a horse without fuss, but would like to see how the owner/regular rider handles the horse first so they know exactly what needs to be done. 
The riders you spoke of in the above post sound like riders that are stuck in the arena (who might be fantastic arena riders, and not have confidence outside of the ring) but you didn't mention any Big Names that refused to get on a horse until you rode it...?
To be honest, I don't know what the point of your post was in answering my question....


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I haven't run into anyone in a long time that would say saddle up a 4 year old stud colt , never handled before and just climp aboard and turn him loose. I don't know anyone who can really break a bolting problem. Sure I ride with girls that run endurance and do the 50's but alot of encouragement comes from me. One girl who got her 1000 mile pin would cry at 40 miles and I had to joke and keep her spirits up.
> One girl got an endurance championship in the late 80's . She was my riding partner but I still had to baby sit her alot. The guys in the barn are useless. The owner of our barn owns 6 horses, high end horses but she would never climb on some of the horses I ride.
> If a new OTTB would come to the barn and they wanted to see how it went I would always be the guy who tried him first and then if he didn't explode, do something stupid the girls would ride him. I might only ride him this one time but I would rather see him buck me off then one of them.:lol::lol:.
> 
> ...


Obviously you're not from my area...


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## paintsrule (Aug 20, 2009)

Madyson said:


> Obviously you're not from my area...


Or mine, geesh, you have an ego and have only met pansy horse people I guess.


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

paintsrule said:


> Or mine, geesh, you have an ego and have only met pansy horse people I guess.


I know! People here are confident in there riding enough to be able to handle a horse like that. Unless they are about 10 years old or under...


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I haven't run into anyone in a long time that would say saddle up a 4 year old stud colt , never handled before and just climp aboard and turn him loose.


I don't think anyone's arguing that you're not an excellent rider. My question (and again, I'm asking from the depths of my horse-ignorance) is whether that's the best way to introduce the horse to riding. You rode him once: from now on, when he sees the saddle, is he going to be saying to himself "Oh boy, we're going for a ride, what fun!" or "Here comes one of those two-leggers, maybe this one I can buck off?"


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

He's not from my area either but I think he is right. Aside from a few teenagers that only "think" they could handle a horse like that I don't know many that could or would aside from a few working cowboys that are pretty good hands. The majority of peoplle that you will find around a boarding facility will be just as Riosdad describes.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> He's not from my area either but I think he is right. Aside from a few teenagers that only "think" they could handle a horse like that I don't know many that could or would aside from a few working cowboys that are pretty good hands. The majority of peoplle that you will find around a boarding facility will be just as Riosdad describes.


 i think us young people think we can because we havent hit the stage when we findout what fear is, haha. 
Boarding facilitys can be nightmares, i have heard of some crazy ones, but around here, we were always taught if you cant do somethin with your hrose, get off, and dont get back on. If you cant ride your horse outside, you have no business riding. I'm really lucky, because the barn im at, the crazies tend to leave, all the people here take their horses through things and keep them from getting crazy from to much arena work. Honestly, i know almost hundreds of riders who would easily get on a horse like that and have no problems, i also know a bunch of wanna-be cowboys who think they could. haha I think it depends on the area your in.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> The majority of peoplle that you will find around a boarding facility will be just as Riosdad describes.


Kevin, I respect Rio's experience but to say that he is the only one who can do it is either a little egotistical, or he only knows pansies, or it's an exaggeration - maybe a combination of any of that. Myself or any of my riding partners would not even think twice about most of those feats (getting on a new stud without some work first is just dumb). 

Couple that with a 100 mile endurance rider who can only do 40 without his help shouldn't be riding that distance. It takes fortitude do a ride like that and you either have it or you don't. Some encouragement is always a benefit and everyone can use some from time to time but all the time? Really?

I believe that Rio has the experience that most of the riders here are certainly lacking but a lot of what I read is seat of the pants "he-manship" and not responsible advise to the young riders. Yes, I know that he is accounting his escapades but done without a disclaimer to some of his training makes a youngster think that that is the way it should be done.

I would more follow other member's advise, such as yours, smrobs, Flitterbug, and others before following Rio. He has good stories and some good advise but some of it a little hard to believe - ala Hidaldgo. I'm sure he has no problem with my beliefs and that's fine, just my opinion for what it's worth.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> Kevin, I respect Rio's experience but to say that he is the only one who can do it is either a little egotistical, or he only knows pansies, or it's an exaggeration - maybe a combination of any of that. Myself or any of my riding partners would not even think twice about most of those feats (getting on a new stud without some work first is just dumb).
> 
> Couple that with a 100 mile endurance rider who can only do 40 without his help shouldn't be riding that distance. It takes fortitude do a ride like that and you either have it or you don't. Some encouragement is always a benefit and everyone can use some from time to time but all the time? Really?
> 
> ...


I agree 100%!!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> Couple that with a 100 mile endurance rider who can only do 40 without his help shouldn't be riding that distance.


Find me one place, JUST ONE PLACE WHERE I MENTIONED 100'S. ONe place. She road a big muscled quarter horse and never took him over 50 and she found that almost too much.
Yes she did get her 1000 mile pin but one 50 at a time. 
My longest runs were 65 MILES. I felt at 193 pounds plus saddle and a 870 arab that my weight was too much for him to successfully carry over that distance and risk hurting him

Again iridehorses find me one place where I mentioned doing 100's

As for climbing on a colt, I have done it a number of times. Sometimes I never saw the horse the hour before the ride and just tied him hard and fast, put on the aussie saddle, climbed aboard while still tied and then turned him loose. I want to know what he rode like and I wanted to know right now.
The white stallion I did that too was not handled, barely halter broke and I ended up taking him around a big pasture. I unsaddled and never saw him again.
I also saddled a colt at a big endurance barn with the owners help, crawled aboard and they turned me loose to head into the bush.

My second last horse was ridden within 15 minutes of arriving. My 17 year companion before that was shod that night by me with his head tied tight to a post and the next morning we headed out into the snow.

My present ride RIO was brought home Friday night, unhandled, unbroken but on Sunday I rode him twice that day and by Wednesday he was running bush , alone, not another horse, alone.

Again this could go on and on.
Find where I said I did 100's with her????? She ran 50, and accumulated 1000 miles on him. He also won top quarter horse. I baby sat her every step from breaking him which I did to his 1000 mile award.
I will check back later for your showing me where I lied.

Big names?? I don't know any big names. There is a 7-10 million dollar facility less then a mile away and you wouldn't have even heard of them. They are into Dutch warm bloods. My immediate neighbour has 50 plus dressage horses in her facility and again you would never have heard o her. So no. I know no big names. The biggest names I know in endurance are "Connie and Jim Rawski and EArl Baxter. That's it for anyone an endurance person might recognize.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Iridehorse, you are calling me a liar. If you find where I talked about running 100's I will take a month off but if you can not find it how about you doing the same. Take a month off??
Put up or shut up.

What bothers me so much Iridehorses is because I expected more from you and you let me down.

Find it and I will take a vacation but if you can't find it you take a vacation???


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> My present ride RIO was brought home Friday night, unhandled, unbroken but on Sunday I rode him twice that day and by Wednesday he was running bush , *alone, not another horse, alone*.


Not trying to offend(!), but what is so special about taking (or even starting) a horse alone on trail? I'd think plenty of people do it that way.


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

Kevin: I find that quite offensive, seeing as I myself am a teen. I been training my horse, Rhythm, from the very start. I've worked with two OTTB's - one of them I still own and the other was sold as a hunter by the person who owned him at the time.
I've trained a TB/Welsh pony mare start-to-finish, whom belongs to my trainer. Yes, she does have exceptional bloodlines, but that certainly did not make her have the best attitude around. She's the type of mare you can't ask to do anything, or you get bucked off. You have to *make* this mare work for you; tell her you're the boss - that is, unless you don't care if you get dumped everyday. In fact, at my 5th show with that pony, someone came up and offered my trainer well over $30,000 for her. My trainer knew much better than to sell her because a) she wasn't for sale. b) she knew better than let anyone try her because the last time someone test rode her she bucked them off. And c) she didn't like the trainer's methods that the client would be training with. That same show we qualified for USEF Pony Finals. 
So please don't say that teens only 'think' that they can handle horses like these, because I know quite a few that could without a problem.
I know that I may sound a bit cocky when saying all this. But I honestly don't think of myself as that good of a _rider_. In fact, I know there are people out there my age who are competing in Grand Prix's. One of my friends from my old barn is only about 3 months older than me, and she just did he first Prix in early April. Anyways, I instead like to think of myself as a better teacher than rider (I would say trainer, but I don't train people - unless I'm helping my trainer out with lessons or something of the like, and I'm also not at the same level as my trainer. So calling myself a trainer, and then referring to her as one would be quite disrespectful). There is a difference between riders, teachers, and trainers. Trainers train, teachers teach, and riders ride. Need I explain more?


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Rio, my mistake in misreading 1000 for 100, but the fact still remains that you needed to be the only one who can do those marvelous feats. Don't hang your hat on a simple mistake, your attitude is the problem, not the distance.

I've defended you when I thought you were in the right, and called you out when I thought you were in the wrong - that is the purpose of a forum. I would not suggest you turn this into a "contest". I said what I meant and you can accept it or not, that is purely up to you.

You want to leave - leave. If you feel that you are being unduly criticized then, perhaps, you need to look at it more objectively. One thing I taught my kids is that it isn't always what you say but the way it is heard.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Sorry, the thread was reclosed by accident. It is open for now.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Not trying to offend(!), but what is so special about taking (or even starting) a horse alone on trail? I'd think plenty of people do it that way.


I don't want another horse along because I want the horse to concentrate on me and no one else. I don't want to talk to another rider. I want it only between my horse and myself. I want to be able to stop, to turn, to back, to sidepass anywhere I want. 
I am not afraid alone. I am not afraid he will bolt and I can't stop him or he will start bucking and throw me. I have confidence in myself.
To ride with others spoils this connection, you talk idle chit chat, you have to maintain a resemblance of a even gait. All this takes away from the training. 
The other horse wants his turn at leading so it is lost time for my youngster. If I come across something that scares him I want the time to work through the problem, not follow another horse , I want him and I to work it out alone.
I plan routes, challenges, something new to each ride, something as simple as sitting beside the railroad track while the train passes by. Anything to expose him.
You can not do these things if you are trying to enjoy a walk in the bush with another person.
Even now after 1 1/2 years of training I still prefer to run alone, I still train dialy, practice his skills every ride to keep him sharp.
I will not spend time in an arena or round pen. I am out of the confines as soon as I think I can hold the horse if you bolts. That is in a day or two and from then on it is the open spaces.

Maybe I just enjoy my own company:lol::lol:


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

There is a time and place for riding with company. I ride 60% of the time by myseelf for pretty much the same reasons. I want to use that time for training and communicating with my horse without having to interfere with another rider's enjoyment on the trail, or with him interfering with mine.

That being said, I really enjoy the other 40% with a good group of knowledgeable horsemen. While there is still training involved, it's just another form when my horse has to behave in the company of others.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

I sing when I'm out alone. Haha. 
I think it's fun going out alone because I can canter when iwant to canter and just do my own thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> I sing when I'm out alone. Haha.
> I think it's fun going out alone because I can canter when iwant to canter and just do my own thing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can't sing but even if I could I wouldn't. It distracts the horse. I verbal command him and I want my words to mean something. If I am singing and throw a command in the mix every now and then how does he know???

He knows the word WALK for example and I just have to start saying it and is walking. If I am singing all the time he misses the sound. He might delay noticing that I am talking to him.
The forest around me does all the singing I want.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

haha I can't sing, it's all off tune XD poor rena, has to listen to that the whole time, haha.
Rena isn't really tuned to voice commands, when I lunge or want to just use sounds I click or 'kiss', but I usually just use body language or aids. :]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> I can't sing but even if I could I wouldn't. It distracts the horse. I verbal command him and I want my words to mean something. If I am singing and throw a command in the mix every now and then how does he know???
> 
> He knows the word WALK for example and I just have to start saying it and is walking. If I am singing all the time he misses the sound. He might delay noticing that I am talking to him.
> The forest around me does all the singing I want.


Again, RiosDad, more than one way to skin a cat. It might distract your horse, but it might help another calm down. When I'm feeling tense, I sing to myself (albeit under my breath - I can't hold a tune to save my own life) which helps me breathe; it's a relaxation thing. Some horses are soothed by a voice talking to them. In fact, a lot of the horses I have started seem soothed by a voice talking to them and reassuring them; and yes, I use voice commands as well. Maybe it's because I have a melodious voice  hahaha!


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> Again, RiosDad, more than one way to skin a cat. It might distract your horse, but it might help another calm down. When I'm feeling tense, I sing to myself (albeit under my breath - I can't hold a tune to save my own life) which helps me breathe; it's a relaxation thing. Some horses are soothed by a voice talking to them. In fact, a lot of the horses I have started seem soothed by a voice talking to them and reassuring them; and yes, I use voice commands as well. Maybe it's because I have a melodious voice  hahaha!


 
I guess if you need to relax the horse and yourself singing might work. My guy is not tense, I am not tense. We just go out and run a relaxing trail. Ride enough and even the energetic horse runs calm.:lol::lol:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I too do not and would not sing to or on my horses. For one I do not want them to get use to me saying anything that is not directly related to what I want them to do. Plus I have owned enough horses who love to stop. You say anything and they are sitting down and stopping. Not good when you are not set up for a sliding stop.


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## jagman6201 (Mar 13, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I don't want another horse along because I want the horse to concentrate on me and no one else. I don't want to talk to another rider. I want it only between my horse and myself. I want to be able to stop, to turn, to back, to sidepass anywhere I want.
> I am not afraid alone. I am not afraid he will bolt and I can't stop him or he will start bucking and throw me. I have confidence in myself.
> To ride with others spoils this connection, you talk idle chit chat, you have to maintain a resemblance of a even gait. All this takes away from the training.
> The other horse wants his turn at leading so it is lost time for my youngster. If I come across something that scares him I want the time to work through the problem, not follow another horse , I want him and I to work it out alone.
> ...


I don't think kitten_Val was getting at WHY you start a horse on the trails alone (which I agree with you, I always ride alone first and for-most so I have the horses full attention), but rather why you think you're so special for starting a horse alone? 

But, as usual -- you tend to read half the response and jump right on post without really every answering the direct question...


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## ptvintage (Feb 12, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> I too do not and would not sing to or on my horses. For one I do not want them to get use to me saying anything that is not directly related to what I want them to do. Plus I have owned enough horses who love to stop. You say anything and they are sitting down and stopping. Not good when you are not set up for a sliding stop.



I find this very interesting... how do you enjoy your horse when you can't speak at all? It seems way too militaristic to not be able to speak to anyone or say anything. I understand reasons for not speaking some of the time, but not all the time.

To me, riding is a very social activity... my friends and I would always be laughing, talking and singing while we rode, and we never had any problems with it. 

It would seem to me that once you take out the ability to speak/talk, riding becomes way too serious and not fun...and why ride if it is not fun?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Keep in mind that I DO NOT TRAIL ride. There is no one else in the ring when I am in there. It is just me and my horse. I need a horse that is very very responsive. I want a horse who is very quick when I give a command. When I say whoa I expect that horse to sit down and stop. When I humm I expect my horse to slow down.

"When you say why ride if it is not fun?" I say why ride if you can not slide. Each person has a reason why they like to ride and how and why they train the way they do. Riosdad likes to ride and train alone b/c that is the way he competes and rides. I like to train and ride young horses with a lot of other horses around b/c that is what they are going to see when they go to shows. Neither is correct or incorrect. Each works for the reasons they are used for.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

haha there's so many reasons for riding, so many different techniques. As my mom says, it's like raising children XD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Jag6201 said:


> ), but rather why you think you're so special for starting a horse alone?
> 
> ...


I am special. I make exceptional horses that stand out in any barn. It is my life, my passion, training to me is something I love and know.
I have already been to the barn 3 times today and I am heading back over in about 10 minutes. That's 4 times I have spent time with him and I included a nice 2 hour run on my second visit. My 3rs visit was a 30 minute hand grazing on a choice piece of grass beside the highway.
My 4th visit tonight is for graining, grooming and feeding his night hay.

I will do it all over agian tomorrow.

I am an addict and horses are my dope.:lol::lol:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

ptvintage said:


> I find this very interesting... how do you enjoy your horse when you can't speak at all? It seems way too militaristic to not be able to speak to anyone or say anything. I understand reasons for not speaking some of the time, but not all the time.
> 
> To me, riding is a very social activity... my friends and I would always be laughing, talking and singing while we rode, and we never had any problems with it.
> 
> It would seem to me that once you take out the ability to speak/talk, riding becomes way too serious and not fun...and why ride if it is not fun?


I talk to my horse all the time. I tell him what a good old man he is. I praise him all the time for some special thing he did but all conversation is with him, too him and he knows it.

The social part of the ride takes away from the ride, I detest idle chit chat while on trail.. To me fun is the connection between the horse and rider.. If you can think of a row of corn you want to go down and the horse seems to go to that exact row all on his own, that to me is fun. To mentally be connected with a horse.
It is something you will never acheive if you think riding/fun is about laughing, talking with your friends. You will never have a connection.

You might not have a problem with riding with you friends but it is only a ride for you , for me it is an opportunity.. You'll never get it.


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

Jag6201 said:


> but rather why you think you're so special *for starting a horse alone*?
> 
> But, as usual -- you tend to read half the response and jump right on post without really every answering the direct question...





RiosDad said:


> I am special. I make exceptional horses that stand out in any barn. It is my life, my passion, training to me is something I love and know.
> I have already been to the barn 3 times today and I am heading back over in about 10 minutes. That's 4 times I have spent time with him and I included a nice 2 hour run on my second visit. My 3rs visit was a 30 minute hand grazing on a choice piece of grass beside the highway.
> My 4th visit tonight is for graining, grooming and feeding his night hay.
> 
> ...


I don't really think you answered her question from what I can tell. I believe she asked why you think it is unique of you to trail ride a horse alone. I do it all the time and most everyone at my barn does, riders age 12-58.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I am special. I make exceptional horses that stand out in any barn. It is my life, my passion, training to me is something I love and know.
> I have already been to the barn 3 times today and I am heading back over in about 10 minutes. That's 4 times I have spent time with him and I included a nice 2 hour run on my second visit. My 3rs visit was a 30 minute hand grazing on a choice piece of grass beside the highway.
> My 4th visit tonight is for graining, grooming and feeding his night hay.
> 
> ...



Only 4 times???:?


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Only 4 times???:?


I don't live there and I have full board. I just can't stay away. I come home, work on the my yard, in my shop but the barn keeps calling and my wife understands and lets me go to get a fix.:lol::lol:


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

roro said:


> I don't really think you answered her question from what I can tell. I believe she asked why you think it is unique of you to trail ride a horse alone. I do it all the time and most everyone at my barn does, riders age 12-58.


I don't know what you want but why don't you let her speak for herself and if she wants a different response I will give it.

My uniqueness might be the time frame. Sometimes in as little as 30 minutes from the first time they feel a rider on their back they are out in the open running fields alone or it might be that within 15 minutes of a new purchase I have him under saddle and I am on him??
I don't know what you expect???


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Jag6201 said:


> I don't think kitten_Val was getting at WHY you start a horse on the trails alone (which I agree with you, I always ride alone first and for-most so I have the horses full attention), but rather why you think you're so special for starting a horse alone?
> ...


There are alot of people that don't ride thier horses alone. I just sent home a nice paint gelding that I rode for 30 days and the owner told me that he had never been ridden outside by himself. I think RD is right in saying that it is not the average rider or even trainer that chooses to put in the time and the risk of riding a green colt out by himself.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I think RD is right in saying that it is not the average rider or even trainer that chooses to put in the time and the risk of riding a green colt out by himself.


Thanks Kevin. I do feel that Smrobs is one of those trainers that will do it too. She will get on a green colt all alone and head out very early in his training. I think she has alot of confidence in who she is and what she can do.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I also do it and I know some other guys that do it but the majority of trainers I know never get out of sight of the hotwalker.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I also do it and I know some other guys that do it but the majority of trainers I know never get out of sight of the hotwalker.


Kevin you are a big strong man with years of experience and confidence. I would expect nothing less.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I think you have to take into consideration what the horse will be used for. I personally do not find it very important if my trainer take my horses out along for a trail ride in the first 30 days or if he ever takes my horse out on a trail ride along. As that is of no importance to me. What is of importance to me is that my horse is very comfortable in the arena with 70+ other horses running all over in the warm up pen. If the horse in front of them stops and my horse runs into the rear end of that horse does he freak or just go about his business. This is what is important to me.

So to say one person is special b/c they take the horse out along for his first ride is relative to what you want from that horse. All my horses trail ride. Even alone. However it is of no importance if they started out doing that.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> So to say one person is special b/c they take the horse out along for his first ride is relative to what you want from that horse. All my horses trail ride. Even alone. However it is of no importance if they started out doing that.


I live right next door to a high end dressage barn. They have over 50 horses and I have never seen a single one of them ride out of the arena. If they walk down the lane it is only to the gate and not actually out of the confines of this gate.
To them running trail is useless.
Less then 1/2 mile away is a huge dutch warm blood facility. I ride throught their yard all the time and again I don't encounter any of their riders out in their own fields. I lope all around their farm once the crops are harvested but you never see them out. 
Different strokes for different people.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

My trainers barn is next to a large area of trails. All his horses in for training trail ride. They go out about once a week in the summer months. To get the show horses something different to do. However they do not start them that way. Most are well into their training. I think the first time that Cassie was taken out was at about the 4th month she was out.

As to the English riding barns. I have yet to see any of them around here trail ride and most of those horses do not even tie. Even the schooling shows have stalls.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> As to the English riding barns. I have yet to see any of them around here trail ride and most of those horses do not even tie. Even the schooling shows have stalls.


I don't board or "belong" to an English barn, but I can personally vouch for two little English horses who ride trails painlessly and tie beautifully. :lol:

Seriously, though, extra-arena English riders do exist. We're hard to find, but we're out here! :wink:

My old lesson barn had a pretty even mix of English and Western riders and boarders, and nearly all of the horses could be trail ridden regardless of discipline. Some needed a bolder rider than others. The only "arena rats" were the really high-dollar show horses in serious training. Everyone knew how to tie. 

Like Rio said before, different strokes. Some of us want a fearless trail mount ASAP, some of us want an arena-educated show horse, some of us fall somewhere in between. What we want in the end tends to determine how we go about getting it.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

I am an English rider. Haha I expect the best performance from my horse in and out of the arena,  like scoutrider said, there are English riders who trail ride without spooky horses! Haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

In my area, most every English rider trail rides, with or without a group. Not just at my barn, but at the big competing dressage barns. It's just something that most of the riders do, to help the horse's mind. It would be much harder for me to find an English rider here that doesn't trail ride at all. Therefore, it is nothing special to me for people to trail ride alone since many riders around me, including myself, do it.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm mostly an English rider, and I really enjoy my trail time - alone or with a group, it doesn't matter to me. I will also be the first on a horse, or the first to do something with a horse - to me, it's just a part of being a rider, nothing special about it.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I thought of you today Riosdad. On Saturday, I moved Puck to his new barn. They have some fields and trails out back that I've been thinking about riding on since I first saw the place. Puck tends to be a bit of chicken when he's alone, and he has a prankster side that likes to press my buttons. Today I got on him, worked him a little in the ring first, and then headed out toward the fields. We got 3/4 down the walkway before he decided there was a monster there and planted his feet. I cut him some slack since he was new to the place. We ended up standing there for about 10 minutes. Every time I asked, he either backed up or spun around. I took him back to the ring and grabbed a riding crop that was left on the ground and headed back toward the fields. We got to the same spot, he started to stop, I gave him a good crack with the crop, and on past the monster we went, end of story. I did go back and bring him past the area a few more times to let him know he did well. I guess my point is, do as much as necessary but as little as possible. And like many others have said, this works for horses that are doing it as result of a training issue.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

MyBoyPuck said:


> I thought of you today Riosdad. On Saturday, I moved Puck to his new barn. They have some fields and trails out back that I've been thinking about riding on since I first saw the place. Puck tends to be a bit of chicken when he's alone, and he has a prankster side that likes to press my buttons. Today I got on him, worked him a little in the ring first, and then headed out toward the fields. We got 3/4 down the walkway before he decided there was a monster there and planted his feet. I cut him some slack since he was new to the place. We ended up standing there for about 10 minutes. Every time I asked, he either backed up or spun around. I took him back to the ring and grabbed a riding crop that was left on the ground and headed back toward the fields. We got to the same spot, he started to stop, I gave him a good crack with the crop, and on past the monster we went, end of story. I did go back and bring him past the area a few more times to let him know he did well. I guess my point is, do as much as necessary but as little as possible. And like many others have said, this works for horses that are doing it as result of a training issue.


By being forcefull you got him past the scary monster. It helps if you ticked off as well, gives you extra strength/courage.
What about wearing spurs all the time and if he pulls that crap use the spur to drive him on??? Or carry the whip all the time.
Being new to an area is absolutely no excuse. Trialer anywhere and it is new. I expect a good ride regardless of where I go.

You did the right thing by getting the crop and using it to force him forward. There should be no back in a horse.

Good job.:lol:


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Yeah, that was my bad. I just didn't have my crop with me and he called my bluff. I don't plan on letting it happen again. Between the new barn, him getting his shots on Friday, his feet being 2 weeks overdue for shoes, having Lyme disease and it being very hot today, I did baby him a bit. We'll get there. He's a good boy. He just has a sinister side like most TBs.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Jag6201 said:


> I don't think kitten_Val was getting at WHY you start a horse on the trails alone (which I agree with you, I always ride alone first and for-most so I have the horses full attention), but rather why you think you're so special for starting a horse alone?


Actually, I only meant what is so special (IN GENERAL) in starting horses alone on trails? :lol:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> As to the English riding barns. I have yet to see any of them around here trail ride and most of those horses do not even tie. Even the schooling shows have stalls.


In the very fancy jumper/hunter barn I used to take lessons last year people went for trail riding almost every time I had a lesson. On those $$$$$ horses.  Also in one park I go people bring expensive imported hunters to do trail riding. Some people definitely understand that trail riding gives new experience to the horse.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

^same, except they're dressage horses  in my opinion it keeps them from getting arena sour. Even the BO with a Gand prix dressage horse trailers out to the mountains for a ride, I think it's just stupid when people think they're horses are to expensive to ride outside. They're still horses, they still have minds, and they WILL become crazy if they only ever see they're stall and the arena.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Quite a number of the Futurity grade cutting horses are still used to work cattle out in the pastures. These are 5 figure horses and above. They may not be trail riding but they are not just arena horses.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Actually, I only meant what is so special (IN GENERAL) in starting horses alone on trails? :lol:


 
That's the way I took it the first time and explained why I like to take youngsters out alone.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Check out the Bobcaygon ride, June 8th, 1991, a horse named WildFire, 65 miles of hell I will not forget. Lorna Bells horse was right behind me and her horse impaled itself on a beave dam I bare made across.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

Ok, Rios. Answer this for me: DO you beleive toehr methods could have done the same thing?
there is more than one way to train a horse, and they are all equal, as long as they get the person to the same place.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

ridergirl23 said:


> ^same, except they're dressage horses  in my opinion it keeps them from getting arena sour. Even the BO with a Gand prix dressage horse trailers out to the mountains for a ride, I think it's just stupid when people think they're horses are to expensive to ride outside. They're still horses, they still have minds, and they WILL become crazy if they only ever see they're stall and the arena.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The irony there is, dressage requires substantial muscle on the horse's hind quarters and trail riding is hands down the best way to build muscle. I just recently moved my horse to a new barn. I was astounded to see how much more muscled he was than the other horses in his new paddock, and they all jump.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

thunderhooves said:


> Ok, Rios. Answer this for me: DO you beleive toehr methods could have done the same thing?
> there is more than one way to train a horse, and they are all equal, as long as they get the person to the same place.


I know there must be more then one way to train a horse , the "gentlemans horse" but I haven't yet ran into it.

If you don't know what the gentlemans horse is do a search. To me it is the ultimate horse. It fits one I trained to a Tee.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

MyBoyPuck said:


> The irony there is, dressage requires substantial muscle on the horse's hind quarters and trail riding is hands down the best way to build muscle. I just recently moved my horse to a new barn. I was astounded to see how much more muscled he was than the other horses in his new paddock, and they all jump.


 oh my goodness i know!!! I have had people tell me (when i asked them if they wanted to go out for a ride) "I cant!!! my horse is in triaining, there is a show next month!! A trail ride could ruin our training!" :? well duh, a trail ride could for sure ruin training, but only if you didnt ride them correctly on the trail!!! I call it "trassage" haha its dressage while your on the trail, which, is dressage training at its best. :wink:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

When I do take a horse out on a trail ride I do not train in the truest sense. I do not let them get way with things like eating or going the way they want however I also do not make them do what they would do in the area either. I make it fun and relaxing for the horse. We normally just walk and relax. Which is very different then what is done in the arena.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> When I do take a horse out on a trail ride I do not train in the truest sense. I do not let them get way with things like eating or going the way they want however I also do not make them do what they would do in the area either. I make it fun and relaxing for the horse. We normally just walk and relax. Which is very different then what is done in the arena.


Totally agree. Trail riding is for both of us to just chill out and relax. Loose rein and he gets to pick where to put his feet. I think it's very important to let him think for himself. When we're jumping, he needs to be able to solve problems as much, if not more, than I do.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Totally agree. Trail riding is for both of us to just chill out and relax. Loose rein and he gets to pick where to put his feet. I think it's very important to let him think for himself. When we're jumping, he needs to be able to solve problems as much, if not more, than I do.


 agreed, haha, i ride dressage, but when i used to jump my horse saved me in some courses because i made a mistake. trail rides are nice to relax on.


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