# Chestnut & Sorrel?



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

_Technically _chestnut and sorrel are exactly the same thing - on a genetic level. They are just two different expression of the same DNA.

I think the difference really just regionally, and potentially influenced by breed registries. Sorrel tends, in my experience, to be used more by western riders. Chestnut seems to be something you more commonly hear from an English rider.

For myself, I like to call dark mane/dark body chestnut and I tend to call light mane/light body sorrel. It seems to depend on body color for me.

But it's just as correct to call them all chestnut, or call them all sorrel.


----------



## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Seems like everyone has differing opinions on this. I was taught if they look more red or orange-ish that they are sorrel more brown they are chestnut. Mane & tail color doesn't matter. I like to use this picture to show what I mean. Left=sorrel, right=chestnut.



Wallaby is right though, both colors are genetically the same.


----------



## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Genetics aside, the AQHA distinguishes the colors separately as:



> REG114.4 *SORREL*: body color reddish or copper-red; mane and tail usually same color as body, but may be flaxen.
> 
> REG114.5 *CHESTNUT*: body color dark red or brownish-red; mane and tail usually dark red or brownish-red, but may be flaxen.



However the AHA does not use sorrel, only chestnut (other colors are bay, grey, black and roan):



> Chestnuts are a copper color, varying in shades from a light golden-red to a dark brown, known as "liver chestnut."
> 
> Occasionally, a chestnut will have a "flaxen," or blonde, mane and tail. Sometimes, the mane and tail will be a mixture of blonde and chestnut hairs or brown and chestnut hairs. Quite often, the mane and tail will be the same color as the body coat.
> 
> ...


I never liked or used the word "sorrel" ... until I got a "sorrel" horse (she was registered as "sorrel"), LOL.


----------



## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

They're all chestnut to me, lol. I don't mind other folks using the term sorrel to describe them all or using the two terms to distinguish somewhat different colors, but you'll never hear me using the term sorrel! It's a term that I don't think I've ever heard used in the English world, and most of the western folks I know around here also just use the term chestnut.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

The use of the term various by region, and sometimes even by season on certain horses. 

Genetically, at this point in time there is no genetic difference between the two shades. They are both ee (lacking in black pigmentation). 

Essentially it's like having two people with brown hair, but they're different shades of brown.


----------



## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Wallaby said:


> _Technically _chestnut and sorrel are exactly the same thing - on a genetic level. They are just two different expression of the same DNA.
> 
> I think the difference really just regionally, and potentially influenced by breed registries. Sorrel tends, in my experience, to be used more by western riders. Chestnut seems to be something you more commonly hear from an English rider.
> 
> ...


 This is what most of my experience in the past fifty years has been except for a few situations where both English and Western people have argued a different definition.


----------



## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

Yup, Chestnut and Sorrel are the same thing....red, you could just call them all red and be done with it.

Where I'm at the body color does not matter it's the color of the mane and tail that dictate the use of each term.

Chestnut= mane and tail same color as body

Sorrel= Flaxen mane and tail.

Here the horse can be any shade of red but the mane and tail would be the 'deciding factor'. Example;
You have a red horse that's 'liver' in shade, it's mane and tail are flaxen so it would be a liver sorrel. If the mane and tail matched the body color the horse would be a liver chestnut.

You use whatever term you prefer or none at all, nobody is right or wrong in the case of chestnut vs sorrel. ;-)


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

To me, they have always been the same thing--Sorrel has been more of a western term, and chestnut has been more of an English one. For this reason, I use chestnut. I use the term "Flaxen Chestnut" to describe a red horse with a lighter mane and tail. 

Regardless of what word you use, I think we all can figure it out despite the term ;D


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

*sorrels*

here are some of the horses I have owned that are all Sorrels. 
the reg horses were reg as sorrel .


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Wow, even the varnish fellow? Interesting!


----------



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Where I was raised, the old timers were sticklers on getting color correct.

Sorrel meant light chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail. Chestnuts all had a matching mane and tail but could be light, red, or liver. However, mane and tail on the livers were the exception as they were flaxen.

Then there was Blood Bay, I had a Morab that was a solid blood bay.

This link is my last four horses. Post #1427.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/horse-talk-people-over-50-a-213370/page143/

Horse #1 is correctly listed as liver chestnut on his papers.
Horse #2 (the Arab) is listed as Bay but medium bay is correct, IMO.
Horse #3 is correctly listed as a Sorrel w/flaxen mane.
Horse #4 is listed as chestnut but red chestnut is correct, IMO.

Horses one, three, and four are Tennessee Walkers and aged. I think the older generation puts more stock I getting color correct, as a whole. I am a stickler for it because that is how I was taught


----------



## Roanwatch (Apr 1, 2014)

Horseychick87 said:


> Yup, Chestnut and Sorrel are the same thing....red, you could just call them all red and be done with it.
> 
> Where I'm at the body color does not matter it's the color of the mane and tail that dictate the use of each term.
> 
> ...


 
That was my thoughts too, sorrels have lighter mane/tail.


----------



## Roanwatch (Apr 1, 2014)

How do I get the girl to understand that when I call a horse a chestnut, that is what it is, and that it is not a sorrel? 

My definition :
Sorrel - red horse, flaxen mane/tail
Chestnut - red horse, same color mane/tail

Her definition :
Sorrel - Red Horse
Chestnut - Liver/dark colored horse


----------



## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Roanwatch said:


> How do I get the girl to understand that when I call a horse a chestnut, that is what it is, and that it is not a sorrel?
> 
> My definition :
> Sorrel - red horse, flaxen mane/tail
> ...


Explain yourself once. Start using your own terminology. If she can't catch on then it's her problem, or she can ask for clarification. Of course, do remember that her terminology may be different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Roanwatch said:


> How do I get the girl to understand that when I call a horse a chestnut, that is what it is, and that it is not a sorrel?
> 
> My definition :
> Sorrel - red horse, flaxen mane/tail
> ...


Better question... Why does it matter? Chestnut and sorrel are interchangeable. The same horses you call sorrel aren't always going to match someone else's description. If you left the western riding disciplines, sorrel isn't even a color term used in the English riding disciplines. Sorrel isn't even a color option in the Arabian registry and some of their purebreds almost look palomino but without a cream gene to be a true palomino. 

If someone disagrees with how you define the shade differences of recessive red (ee) horses, just let it go! They probably learned it from someone else differently and there isn't a right or wrong way to use chestnut or sorrel when describing a recessive red (ee) horse. One person might call all red colored horses sorrel and another might call all red colored horses chestnut. They are both right as it is just two words for the same genetic color. Some might define the difference between shades by using both chestnut and sorrel, but not everyone will use the same rules to determine which word to use to describe the color.


----------



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

^^^I respectfully disagree. When it comes to basic colors, in paint or clothing for example, there are only three basic colors. These have been combined to create many different color hues.

If I am wearing something that is Periwinkle, don't call it plain old blue or I will be correcting someone.

Most women are sticklers for getting the color of their clothing or the paint for the rooms in their home correct.

Men are sticklers about colors when it comes to the paint job on their Harley-Davidson or their classic car.

Why shouldn't we make the respectful effort to get a horse's color correct? Especially if we bought the horse and profess to love it?

This should come up as a color chart for all of the blue hues.

https://www.google.com/?client=safa...%2Fmedia%2Fshadesofbluechart.jpg.html;664;643


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

walkinthewalk said:


> ^^^I respectfully disagree. When it comes to basic colors, in paint or clothing for example, there are only three basic colors. These have been combined to create many different color hues.
> 
> If I am wearing something that is Periwinkle, don't call it plain old blue or I will be correcting someone.
> 
> ...


Chestnut and sorrel are genetically the same, the use is determined by breed (not all breeds recognize or use sorrel as a color), region and who taught you are what effects what words you use and how you define them. Just like how you use or don't use pop and soda. Two words that are for the same product, some use only one or the other, some use both words. 

I had two breeding stock paint mares, both registered as sorrel and when I got them, they were light chestnut with light flaxen manes and one had a flaxen tail. When the diet was changed to include more protein and a more complete grain, their color changed to being much darker. Their manes and tails also got dark, they no longer appeared as a light chestnut with flaxen. Diet also effects the shade of a red horse.


----------



## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

walkinthewalk said:


> ^^^I respectfully disagree. When it comes to basic colors, in paint or clothing for example, there are only three basic colors. These have been combined to create many different color hues.
> 
> If I am wearing something that is Periwinkle, don't call it plain old blue or I will be correcting someone.
> 
> ...


Life can get awfully cumbersome when you have to remember such specifics as correctly identifying a periwinkle shirt or you'll get someone upset. We could get even more specific with our colors if we're talking to graphic designers, but I'm certainly not going to. I won't correct someone if they say "nice horse" with "he's a quarter horse" nor will I correct someone who refers to my horse as a bay with "he's a WILD bay." If someone refers to my bay as a chestnut then I will correct them, but genetically chestnut and sorrel are referring to the same color horse. I wouldn't get upset if I had a chestnut (of any shade) and someone called it a sorrel, but I wouldn't ever use the term.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

walkinthewalk--"Correct" by whose standards? As it's been pointed out there are no genetic differences, and there is a solid portion of the horse world that simply do not use the term sorrel. Just because it's something that you use doesn't mean everyone else does.
Consider, for example, regional dialects. For example a mountain lion, a cougar, and a puma are all the same cat; a pill bug, a potato bug, and a roly poly are all the same type of insect. None of these words are right or wrong, they are just different. And there certainly isn't one that is "superior" xD

EDIT--Wanted to add... I'm not about to get butthurt if someone calls my lime colored shirt green, or my liver chestnut horse 'brown' xD I have more important problems to worry about.


----------



## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I call those bugs armadillo bugs so yet another name for the same thing( :


----------



## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

LOL, I gave up on figuring out chestnut and sorrel a long tine ago.


----------



## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

*time.


----------



## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

Zexious said:


> walkinthewalk--"Correct" by whose standards? As it's been pointed out there are no genetic differences, and there is a solid portion of the horse world that simply do not use the term sorrel. Just because it's something that you use doesn't mean everyone else does.
> Consider, for example, regional dialects. For example a mountain lion, a cougar, and a puma are all the same cat; a pill bug, a potato bug, and a roly poly are all the same type of insect. None of these words are right or wrong, they are just different. And there certainly isn't one that is "superior" xD
> 
> EDIT--Wanted to add... I'm not about to get butthurt if someone calls my lime colored shirt green, or my liver chestnut horse 'brown' xD I have more important problems to worry about.


I have always called them roly polys  As for the other thing I call them cougars or Mtn lions. And I normally call a red horse either red or chestnut- I didn't even know sorrel was a thing at first, so out of habit I always say red or chestnut. For instance, my colt is a chestnut pinto. Often I will note he could be a sorrel.


----------



## LilyandPistol (Dec 2, 2014)

JCnGrace said:


> I call those bugs armadillo bugs so yet another name for the same thing( :


Lol they do look like tiny armadillos.
Armadillo by morning XD (yes I know it's actually amarillo) 
Like I said I've always called them roly polys. :runninghorse2:
PS didn't mean to flood, just kept coming up with things to say


----------



## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

yes the appy was sorrel. I have had two sorrel appy's .


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm certainly no expert, but all red horses to me are chestnuts. If I bought a horse with papers that used the word "sorrel" I would still call him/her a chestnut. 

I think chestnut sounds much classier, plus that was what was used when I was growing up.

Those bugs that roll up I call pill-bugs.

Those big cats I call mountain lions. 

Is this horse loping or cantering? :runninghorse2: I say canter. 
What gait is this horse doing? :gallop:I say gallop. 
Is this horse trotting or jogging? :riding: I say trot. 

I do know what periwinkle is, but I bought a "berry" colored blanket for my gelding over the internet thinking it would be a deep red color, and it looks hot pink like fusia. I hope he tears it up soon like all the others so I can get him a manly color :wink:

Can't everyone just agree to disagree?


----------



## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

AnitaAnne said:


> I'm certainly no expert, but all red horses to me are chestnuts. If I bought a horse with papers that used the word "sorrel" I would still call him/her a chestnut.
> 
> I think chestnut sounds much classier, plus that was what was used when I was growing up.
> 
> ...


I certainly don't rely on calling horses colors based on their registration papers. My boy was a wild bay (very little black on the legs, but VERY clearly had a black mane and tail) and he was registered as either a chestnut or a sorrel. Don't recall which, but it was clearly wrong either way!


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

DuckDodgers said:


> I certainly don't rely on calling horses colors based on their registration papers. My boy was a wild bay (very little black on the legs, but VERY clearly had a black mane and tail) and he was registered as either a chestnut or a sorrel. Don't recall which, but it was clearly wrong either way!


I had a similar situation! I had a Appy/TB breeding stock mare, papers said bay, but she had NO black anywhere on her, not even one black tail hair. 

Not sure what color she was, some said liver chestnut, wasn't sure that was right either. She threw two chestnut blanket Appy fillies when bred to a black blanket Appy stud. 

Here's an old "picture of a picture" of Honey


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Honey looks chestnut to me. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Honey looks chestnut to me. ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was our best guess too, but why was her midsection so much lighter than the rest of her? 

You can't tell from these sorry pictures, but she had dapples all over her midsection in her summer coat. Someone or other told me dapples were a sign of good health, but then why didn't my other horses (at the time) dapple out? 

Look at this one, my heart horse, def a chestnut, very healthy, no dapples...


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Some do, some don't. My boy is very healthy and no dapples. My old gelding was healthy (and fat when we got him) and no dapples. My best friend's mare is in relative good health, but is dropping weight because of poor, inconsistent feeding/hay and needing her teeth done, and she dappled out this summer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I use the terms walk, trot, canter & run. Since I ride western I don't know why I don't use jog & lope but I learned the other way and have never made the change. Good thing I never developed a drug or alcohol problem because I'm not very successful in breaking habits.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

I use walk, jog, trot, lope, canter and gallop... If I am having my horse doing a very slow collected trot, I call it a jog and if I have my horse doing a slow collected canter, I call it a lope. If my horse is cantering but hardly moving forward, I call it crow hopping... But that is typically when I am riding a horse who is really wanting to race and I said "no".


----------



## Kristyjog (Nov 11, 2013)

The two mares we have are both AQHA registered as different colors. The mare with white socks is sorrel and the other mare a chesnut. I call them both sorrel, they are almost the exact same color. I didn't register them so I have no idea what the criteria was sorrel vs chesnut.


----------



## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

^^^ In my experience with the APHA, they have never changed sorrel or chestnut on a horse registration. We have the same situation, two mares that look exactly the same, one registered as sorrel, one as chestnut by previous owners.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Kristyjog, I would call both of them sorrels too. You have a couple of good looking mares.


----------



## Kristyjog (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks JCnGrace 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Roanwatch (Apr 1, 2014)

Hmm all of this is nice to know, thank you all for your answers/responses.


----------

