# Dunskin? Buckskin and dun in one?



## Iseul

yeah..i'm sure someone else can explain (coz I can't) but it's possible. :3 I'd actually like one of my own, since it's a mix of my two favourite colours. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wild_spot

Yep, absolutely possible. They are caused by two seperate genes - Buckskin is caused when a bay has one copy of cream, and dun is a completely seperate gene.


----------



## riccil0ve

But wouldn't it still look like a buckskin? I'm just confused, lol. Can anyone find a picture of what it would look like?

Oh, this isn't a horse I saw. My friend saw it, and told her it was a "dunskin," and she said it looked like your average buckskin.


----------



## SorrelHorse

Um. No.

A buckskin is basically a dun without the black points. Just like brown is basically bay without the black points. Two seperate genes. If it was a "dunskin" it would be a dun...I mean, honestly. It's like those "Designer Dogs" that are "Labradoodles" or "Goldendoodles." And now its invading the horse world. Ugh.

Another example. Tri-Colored paint. Eh. No again. It's a Bay Paint. No such thing a tri-colored, no matter how cool it would be.

*Edit -* I know there are several shades of Dun and Dun Dilutes. Red Dun, Golden Dun.....and Grulla is a dilute, but still if it was combined it would more than likely be classified as a dun, considering the fact that buckskin is sandy and there are sandy duns too. Any of the Dun colors combined with bUckskin would either be a dun or a buckskin. Examples:

Red Dun w/o points - Sorrel/Chestnut.

Grulla w/o points - Grey

Golden Dun w/o points - Buckskin.

Add black points to almost any color except brown and you get some sort of dun. Bay is the other color with black points. Differance is, bays don't have the stripe on the back. Another Dun definition.

Make sense?


----------



## roro

I looked online and found this:

Google Image Result for http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g161/defrostindoors/equine_science_health/dunskin.jpg










Apparently It's black + agouti + cream + dun. I'm not for or against this information since I'm not a color expert, but I'm presenting what I found when I typed in dunskin.


----------



## SorrelHorse

That's....very strange. I've never seen a horse colored that way. 

Okay, so there is a color for it. I can stand corrected. However, I don't think its a combination of the two colors. Very interesting....


----------



## wild_spot

> Um. No.
> 
> A buckskin is basically a dun without the black points. Just like brown is basically bay without the black points. Two seperate genes. If it was a "dunskin" it would be a dun...I mean, honestly. It's like those "Designer Dogs" that are "Labradoodles" or "Goldendoodles." And now its invading the horse world. Ugh.
> 
> Another example. Tri-Colored paint. Eh. No again. It's a Bay Paint. No such thing a tri-colored, no matter how cool it would be.


There is a lot of misinformation in this post - It might pay to check out the facts before posting.

A buckskin DOES have black points. The cream gene cannot dilute black hairs in it's single form - So only the red coat on a bay is diluted, leaving the black points. Only in it's double form can cream dilute black hairs - If on a bay base, it becomes a Perlino, similar to a cremello but with slightly darker mane and tail.

A dun has the diluted coat, same as a buckskin, but what makes it a dun are primitive markings. They can be quite pronounced or almost invisible. These are leg/wither barring, a dorsal stripe, and counter shading. They may have some or all of the primitive markings.

It IS possible and documented via genetic testing that horses can carry both one cream gene and the dun gene, genetically making them a dunskin.

They generally look just like a buckskin, but may also show some or all of the primitive markings.

The only way to tell for sure is getting them tested.


----------



## wild_spot

Genetically tested Dunskin (Black + Agouti + Cream + Dun):


----------



## riccil0ve

Thank you wild_spot! Helpful as always. =] I'll be sure to pass on the information to my friend.

Another question: If my bay filly had zebra stripes, would she be a dun, or a bay with stripes? She has a dorsal stripe, and the connection of black legs to brown body is pretty unusual, not like any other bay horses I've seen. Dad is a dun with zebra markings, mom is a bay. Just curious. =]


----------



## wild_spot

She would be a dun then - The primitive markings are only linked to dun as far as i'm aware, and she has a dun parent. They can look almost bay except for the markings.


----------



## armydogs

wild_spot said:


> Genetically tested Dunskin (Black + Agouti + Cream + Dun):


can they come in a darker version of this and still be considered a dunskin?


----------



## wild_spot

I beleive so. There aren't many pictures online of tested Dunskins, so there isn't a heap of knowledge of what they look like. It is generally beleived though that the combination produces the brighter, more golden and less sooty coat.

You can also get Palomino + Dun and Smoky Black + Dun - If your horse is darker and not as 'golden' then a Smoky Black + Dun is possible.

However the only way to know for sure is to get them tested.


----------



## nrhareiner

Hollywood Dun It is a Dunskin. 
In this case he is Ee Aa Crcr Dndn however he could also be AA









A Dun E? Dndn A?










Red Dun ee Dndn can be AA or Aa or aa










A grulla is E? aa Dn?

A buckskin is E?A? Crcr dndn


----------



## Quixotic

armydogs said:


> can they come in a darker version of this and still be considered a dunskin?


I'm not quite sure exactly how dark you mean, but basically, as long as their genetics say that they're bay + creme + dun, they're a dunskin. If they also have the sooty gene, that would probably make them darker. Here's an example of a dunskin Morgan stallion who is a bit darker:


----------



## nrhareiner

Quixotic said:


> I'm not quite sure exactly how dark you mean, but basically, as long as their genetics say that they're bay + creme + dun, they're a dunskin. If they also have the sooty gene, that would probably make them darker. Here's an example of a dunskin Morgan stallion who is a bit darker:



This almost makes me want to have my mare tested for cream. Not that it really matters but at times I think she might and then in other times not.


----------



## Quixotic

The test is only $25, so I'd say go for it, just for curiosity's sake.


----------



## shmurmer4

dark buckskin baby (still shedding)


----------



## nrhareiner

I know and that is why I have thought about doing it. Just seems like kind of an who really cares type thing but still would be fun to know. Just to know.

Here are a few pictures showing the different colors she tends to be at times.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Thank you for clarifying that wrong post back there, Wild_spot.

I was sitting here reading and saying, um... buckskins DO have black points. Very much so. That is what makes them a buckskin.


----------



## nrhareiner

Alwaysbehind said:


> buckskins DO have black points. Very much so. That is what makes them a buckskin.


No what makes them a buckskin is the cream gene. Not the black points. The black points make is a bay if you did not have the cream in there.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

nrhareiner said:


> No what makes them a buckskin is the cream gene. Not the black points. The black points make is a bay if you did not have the cream in there.


Yes, but a buckskin is a BAY with the cream gene. Hence the black points. Just like wild_spot said.

Otherwise he would not be a buckskin, he would be some other cream color.


----------



## nrhareiner

Not must some other it would be a pally. If it was not black based or a smokie.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

nrhareiner said:


> Not must some other it would be a pally. If it was not black based or a smokie.


Yes...so to be a buckskin it has black points....

We are saying the same thing I am missing why you are saying we are not.

With out the black points the horse is not a buckskin.


----------



## railNtrail

I always thought that a dun had to have the cream gene and the dun gene to exist, thus making the whole thing 'dunskin' an oxymoron. Could someone please show me a picture of a dun that does not have a cream gene?? Because theoretically if that were true there would be A LOT of 'bays' running around with dorsal stripes, barring, and cob webbing.

My dun:









His sire (dun):









His dam (bay):


----------



## mls

nrhareiner said:


> Not must some other it would be a pally. If it was not black based or a smokie.


That is what alwaysbehind said . . . some other 'cream'.


----------



## missy567

Coloring in horses s an endless debate if you ask me.... without haviung the horse tested you will never know what genes it carries.. JMO


----------



## Quixotic

Dun dilutes the coat colour, hence why they can appear lighter. Bay Duns are the type that most people picture when they imagine a Dun horse, however their colouring can range from very light (like the ones confused with buckskins) to darker (appearing almost as a normal bay with dun markings). These 2 horses are both bay + dun:



















Grulla (Black + Dun)









Red Dun (Chestnut + Dun)









Brown Dun (Brown + Dun)


----------



## riccil0ve

I'm confused now, I can't wrap my head around this, lol.

This is Gracie. I've always figured she was a bay, but now I'm not sure.









You can kind of see her dorsal stripe here...


















You can kind of see the "oddness" I mentioned of her black points here, it just seems different than any other bay I've seen. It's very very blendy.









I have some not-so-great face shots of her mom, dad, and full sister if you think those would be helpful. So is she a bay or not?


----------



## Quixotic

She looks bay to me. A lot of horses have "false" countershading even though they're not dun, so a light dorsal stripe on a bay horse isn't abnormal. It would be very rare for a bay dun to stay as dark as she is.


----------



## riccil0ve

Oh okay. Thanks! Haha.


----------



## haviris

Here is a buckskin dun I like SBR Formula One website , and no generally duns do not have the cream gene, only buckskin dun, palomino dun, and grulla could hide it. I've never really understood why it's such a hard gene to understand.


----------



## Quixotic

Actually, dunskins (bay + dun + creme), dunalinos (chestnut + dun + creme), & "silver" grullas (black + dun + creme), don't hide creme at all. Their coats are diluted as a direct result of creme.


----------



## Quixotic

examples:
Grulla + Creme









Grulla:









It's not always obvious, but in general, you can atleast get an idea that there might be creme present.


----------



## railNtrail

Quixotic said:


> examples:
> Grulla + Creme
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grulla:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not always obvious, but in general, you can atleast get an idea that there might be creme present.


Ahhhh... thanks for the visuals, I understand it a bit better now, but really a dun is a dun... It isn't like the registries are going to change and add all the color variations.


----------



## shesinthebarn

I have a filly I believe is a dunskin now that dhe is shedding out, and a gelding that is for sure a dunalino - I should post pics just to complicate things even more! Is it possible for a dunalino to have the sooty gene as well? Because he sure is dark...


----------



## riccil0ve

shesinthebarn said:


> I have a filly I believe is a dunskin now that dhe is shedding out, and a gelding that is for sure a dunalino - I should post pics just to complicate things even more! Is it possible for a dunalino to have the sooty gene as well? Because he sure is dark...


Yes, post pictures! I have no answers, but I like to learn. =]


----------



## Quixotic

railNtrail said:


> Ahhhh... thanks for the visuals, I understand it a bit better now, but really a dun is a dun... It isn't like the registries are going to change and add all the color variations.


Do they not register them as dun, red dun, & grullo? I thought they did make those distinctions.


----------



## nrhareiner

Quixotic said:


> Do they not register them as dun, red dun, & grullo? I thought they did make those distinctions.



They do in AQHA. However past that they make no distinction which is fine. I find all the people who want to put some other type if identifier to horse colors a bit odd. I have duns and red duns that change shade not only through the year but even from year to year at times. You can look at the pictures I posted earlier to see the difference in color on the same horse.


----------



## Quixotic

shesinthebarn said:


> I have a filly I believe is a dunskin now that dhe is shedding out, and a gelding that is for sure a dunalino - I should post pics just to complicate things even more! Is it possible for a dunalino to have the sooty gene as well? Because he sure is dark...


Yep, it's absolutely possible! Do a google image search for sooty palominos, then picture it with dun added on top of that - I imagine they'd be quite dark!


----------



## nrhareiner

railNtrail said:


> I always thought that a dun had to have the cream gene and the dun gene to exist, thus making the whole thing 'dunskin' an oxymoron.



No a dun does not have the cream gene only the dun gene. Just like a buckskin only has the cream gene but not the dun gene. A dunskine has both.

If you look back at some of the pictures I posted you can see the difference.


----------



## ponyboy

I used to ride a Fjord horse who was a dunskin. His primitive markings were so pale I didn't see them at first. Here's a Fjord horse site that clearly shows the different shades of dun (if you can get used to the Norwegian names).

The Norwegian Fjord Horse


----------



## Quixotic

oh I LOVE Fjords <3


----------



## armydogs

this is actually my friends horse. he is wild mustang. I cant tell what color he is. i know the picture is small, but its the only one i have. he has the striping on his legs. the blm called him a sorrel, but im not sure thats right. what do yall think?


----------



## Quixotic

I think we'd have to see bigger pictures of him & his leg markings to really be able to give you a good answer. From that picture, he looks more bay to me than anything.


----------



## RadHenry09

I find all of this very interesting!

Could someone tell me what color my gelding actually is or would I have to have him tested for certain genes?

I call him a Dun, but sometimes people use Dun and Buckskin meaning the same color.
What if a horse appears to be a Dun with dun factors ( dorsal , leg barring etc..) but has white on their legs and white blaze. Would that still be a Dun or would it be considered a buckskin/dunskin

Here is a pic of my boy who I refer to as Dun.


----------



## armydogs

ill see if i can get her to get some better pictures of him for me.


----------



## Quixotic

He's got frosting at the base of his tail, as well as a dorsal stripe, so I'd guess he's a dun. 
Yes, dun horses can have typical white markings.


----------



## nrhareiner

He is a dun. He does not look light enough to carry the cream. What color are his sire and dam??


----------



## RadHenry09

Thanks for replying.

I am unsure of the color of his sire/dam. His breeding is unknown to me. Good to know that I am listing him as the right color.
A lot of people tell me he is a buckskin however....I believe that the color debate will go on for years ..lol

nrhareiner: your horse is just stunning, I love the mane : )


----------



## nrhareiner

Ir you really want to know send in some hair $25 and find out.

Thanks on the mare.


----------



## Quixotic

Buckskins can actually be quite dark - 

































But I'd definitely say your boy is dun. And I agree, get him tested if you really want to know. It's cheap enough to be able to use "sheer curiosity" as a justifiable reason for doing it.


----------



## haviris

Quixotic I was not saying palomino dun and buckskin dun hide the cream gene, I was saying grulla does. Generally you can not tell by looking if a grulla carries cream. I have a 'silver' grulla and I don't know if she carries the cream gene. 

RadHenry09 your horse is a dun (VERY pretty! I love that color), the people telling you he's a buckskin don't know what a buckskin is.


----------



## Quixotic

Do you have any pictures of your grulla?


----------



## haviris

shesinthebarn if you are talking about your Sookie, she's definately buckskin, if you post a pic of her behind we could tell you if she's also dun.


----------



## haviris

Sure, here are some pics,


----------



## Quixotic

Very pretty! I love her face in that first pic, she looks like she has a lot of personality.
If I had to guess, I'd say creme was hiding in there, but I could be completely wrong lol


----------



## armydogs

this is way off topic, but does gypsy have a blaze or a bald face? 

ok, back on topic, yall have some really pretty babies.


----------



## haviris

Hopefully I can get her tested, find out for sure!


----------



## CheyAut

Cream very often (usually in fact) doesn't show on black horses. A grullo is a black horse with dun. It is impossible to say wether a grullo has cream just by looking at it. Some dark grullos DO, some light grullos DON'T. 

Also, just because a bay dun is light, doesn't mean it's a dunskin (ack I hate that word for some reason, just the sound of it... so I say buckskin dun lol)

This is my Fjord gelding, he is bay dun









Some pics showing his dun markings for fun 


































And this is my silver buckskin dun mini mare. She is tested to have the silver and cream genes.


----------



## haviris

I'm with you on the word dunskin, I don't use it, I prefer buckskin dun.


----------



## haviris

Sorry armydogs, I almost missed your question, I call it a crooked blaze.


----------



## armydogs

haviris said:


> Sorry armydogs, I almost missed your question, I call it a crooked blaze.


thanks for answering, i love it. gives her so much personality.


----------



## wild_spot

Just a note - Dun and Cream express differently on Fjords than other horses - Generally they are much lighter.


----------



## shesinthebarn

haviris said:


> shesinthebarn if you are talking about your Sookie, she's definately buckskin, if you post a pic of her behind we could tell you if she's also dun.


I'd love to post a pic of Sookie - I am gonna pitch this flippin' computer out the window. I can't figure out why It won't allow me to upload pics. Grrr.
I thought for sure she was buttermilk buckskin, but she shed out with countershading and what may be leg barring. Dad is dunskin and mom is sorrel so It's possible. Her brother, my gelding, is the one who has me the most curious. He is a funky colour for sure. His mother is dunalino. With major dun factor.
I'm going to keep trying to upload pics...


----------



## riccil0ve

What is countershading?


----------



## RadHenry09

nrhareiner said:


> Ir you really want to know send in some hair $25 and find out.
> 
> Thanks on the mare.


 
Def. will consider that, I didnt realize that was what you had to do.


----------



## colds

I bought Ginger as a "dun buckskin" I heard that the the dorsal stripe gives them the "dun" and and color gives them the "buckskin". Ginger's dam is a dun/tobiano and sire is bay/tob/ovr. Her registered color is dun. This is the only picture I have that shows the dorsal stripe.


----------



## Quixotic

Nope, the dun gives her that colour too. Neither of her parents carried creme, which is what causes buckskin, so it would be impossible for her to be a buckskin. She's a pretty girl.


----------



## colds

Well, I'll be jiggered.:lol: Thanks for the reply Quixotic.


----------



## Quixotic

riccil0ve said:


> What is countershading?


It's basically what makes non-dun horses look like they've got "dun factor" - dorsal stripes, leg-barring, etc that mimics the markings on a true dun.

Look at this picture. The 3 horses on the left are all dun. The horse on the right is a champagne with countershading. A big indicator of whether a horse's dorsal stripe is true dun or just countershading is to look & see if it end abruptly at the base of the tail or not. If it does, it's countershading.


----------



## EpicAnomaly

qqqqqqqqqqqq


----------



## EpicAnomaly

I'm pretty sure you can classify it as a buckskin or a dun..
So it's probably one or the other..

Some people/associations say that Dun's don't have a dorsal stripe.. and some say they do..
Some also say that Buckskins don't have the dorsal stripe but Duns do..

lol it's kind of confusing.. But yeah.. I don't see how a horse could be both.
(My book specifically says that they can be pretty much the same, except a dun has the dorsal stripe, and a buckskin doesn't..)

As for the bay with zebra stripes.. I'd assume it is just a bay..
But it might be a very dark dun.. and may lighten as it matures??
​


----------



## haviris

They CAN be both because the genes that control them are completely different. No matter what some people or associations say, the FACT is they are controled by different genes. The Cream gene controls buckskin, a horse CAN NOT be buckskin w/out it. Dun is controlled by the dun gene (no matter if it's dun on bay, black, palomino, buckskin, etc.) they are not related they are two completely different genes.

Think of this, a bay horse w/ two cream genes is not going to look anything like a bay horse w/ two dun genes. Because they are NOT the same genes!

Colds's horse is a dun (very, very, pretty!), she is NOT a buckskin.


----------



## EpicAnomaly

That kind of made sense.. but kind of didn't..
If your horse isn't registered.. you kind of just have to choose one or the other..
In my opinion.. lol

You didn't explain how to tell the two apart.. and what traits can make a horse both..

Cause like.. what if you didn't know what genes the horse had..?


----------



## roro

Jeez, this thread!  I've never understood why people are so committed to color specifications. It's like a secret magical world I'll never be a part of.


----------



## EpicAnomaly

LOL yeah.. it's not a big deal at all! (Unless it is for breeders... i dono..)
I guess it just gives the "know it alls" a chance to show off hahahahaha


----------



## Quixotic

It has nothing to do with being a "know it all" & showing off. It's all about trying to understand genetics. If you don't care, then that's fine, but a lot of people are actually interested in learning about this sort of thing. I personally find it fascinating. I'm sorry that you don't.


----------



## EpicAnomaly

Woah... way to judge..
I actually love learning about stuff like this.. 
The last part of that post was meant to be funny/sarcastic.. 
I guess I should be more clear next time 

It's not a life or death situation on what color your horse is.. xD lol
But as a horse person, I want to know everything there is to know about horses.. Including the history of them.. 
Yeah I don't even know half there is to know.. but I'm slowly learning 

I would like haviris to explain more though.. cause it really sounds like he/she knows what she's talking about..

(p.s. I'm not trying to fight with you.. I just wanted to make myself a bit more clear..)


----------



## haviris

Ditto..

I'd like to post pics to explain better, but not sure about taking pics that don't belong to me. 

The horse in your avatar is a palomino, palomino and buckskin are made by the same gene, they are more closely related then dun and buckskin. Your horse has one CREAM gene, a buckskin also has ONE cream gene. 

To explain alittle better maybe, do you know what a Perlino is? That would be a horse w/ TWO cream genes. If your horse had two, he'd be a cremello, that is because the cream gene acts different in homozygous form (meaning they have two and not one) then it does in heterozygous form (meaning only one). 

Dun, however, you can't tell if they have one or two, because both look the same. Another big difference, Cream hides in black, you can't tell by looking if a black horse has the cream gene, Dun on the other hand turns a black into a grulla.
This would be the dun gene working on a black horse,








This horse may also be HIDING the cream gene, but there is no way to know w/out testing. See how her color is more silver and not black? And see the black stripe that runs down her back? That is the dun gene at work. She may have only one dun gene, or she may have two, only way to know is to test her, if she had two cream genes on the other hand, she'd look almost like a Perlino!

Generally if a horse is dun you can tell by looking at it, it has nothing to do w/ being registered. And maybe it just takes practice, but to me the two colors are not that hard to tell apart. 

If you're madly currious you can color test, you can't tell what all genes a horse has just by looking (or even knowing their ped.), because some genes can hide (like bay on a red horse). Dun does not, if they have it you can see it.


----------



## wild_spot

A good way to tell is the presence or lack thereof of primitive markings. A dun will show some or all of the primitive markings - Webbing, leg barring, wither barring, a dorsal stripe, a wither/shoulder stripe. A buckskin does NOT have primitive markings. they may have countershading as demonstrated above but if a true dorsal stripe or leg barring (The two most common primitive markings) are present, then you can be sure that the dun gene is present. The colour produced by dun and buckskin also differ a little - A trained eye can usually tell.

It is harder to tell if the dun gene AND the creme gene are present together. Testing is the only way you can know for sure.

As Haviris mentioned, the cream gene and the dun gene act differently when there are two copies present, known as being homozygous. With cream, it produces what is called a double dilute - The dilution is maginified, creating Cremellos (The most widely known double dilute - Pink skin, blue eyes, creamy hair - Two copies of cream on a red base coat) Perlinos (two copies of cream on a black base coat + agouti [Also known as bay] who have pink skin and amber coloured eyes) and smoky creams (two copies of cream on a black base coat, no agouti, who look similar to Perlinos).

On the other hand, a horse who is homozygous for dun cannot be identified just by looking - Testing is the only way to know.

Testing is quite important to a lot of breeders. A horse who is homozygous for a certain colour has a 100% chance of passing that colour on to offspring - So the owner of a homozygous dun stallion can give mare owners a 100% colour guarantee. However the same stallion with only one copy of dun has only a 50% chance of passing the colour on to any offspring, which aren't as good odds. Testing can also reveal colours that 'hide' under other colours or are only activated when another colour is present, such as pearl - Unactivated unless the horse also possesses the cream gene, yet can still be passed on unknowingly to progeny. Hence, testing is a great tool for breeders when promoting their stallions or breeding their mares.


----------



## wild_spot

This stallion shows good expressive primitive markings - The black along his shoulder, the leg barring, a clearly defined dorsal stripe:



















Compare that to a buckskin:


----------



## CheyAut

wild_spot said:


> Perlinos (two copies of cream on a black base coat + agouti [Also known as bay] who have pink skin and amber coloured eyes)


All double dilutes have blue eyes, not amber


----------



## wild_spot

I'm sure I read thet Perlinos and Cremellos have slightly different coloured eyes - One of the defining characteristics. Maybe it was slightly green tinged, not amber? Ah well, maybe i'm wrong :]


----------



## Quixotic

Green eyes are found on horses that are either Creme + Pearl or double Pearl dilutes. Amber eyes are found on Champagnes. Double Creme dilutes have blue eyes.


----------



## nrhareiner

Not all double cream dilutes have blue eyes. I know several who do not.


----------



## wild_spot

*



Cremello/Perlino eyes often have areas or "flecks" with darker blue pigment, or even green or amber. Paint blue eyes are usually very light "ice" blue, as illustrated above. There is currently a study being done by veterinarians on equine blue eyes. As soon as any information is available from that study, we will have it posted on our webpages!

Click to expand...



This sort of thing is what I was referring to.*


----------



## roro

Quixotic said:


> It has nothing to do with being a "know it all" & showing off. It's all about trying to understand genetics. If you don't care, then that's fine, but a lot of people are actually interested in learning about this sort of thing. I personally find it fascinating. I'm sorry that you don't.


Who are you referring to?


----------



## Quixotic

roro said:


> Who are you referring to?


 That was referring to the post directly above mine, not to what you said.


----------



## Quixotic

nrhareiner said:


> Not all double cream dilutes have blue eyes. I know several who do not.


 Really? That's interesting. I've only personally known one cremello, so all the rest I've only seen in pictures. Double dilutes aren't exactly common in the Thoroughbred/Warmblood world lol, & that's pretty much all we had at my barn.


----------



## BuckskinMama

SorrelHorse said:


> Um. No.
> 
> A buckskin is basically a dun without the black points. Just like brown is basically bay without the black points. Two seperate genes. If it was a "dunskin" it would be a dun...I mean, honestly. It's like those "Designer Dogs" that are "Labradoodles" or "Goldendoodles." And now its invading the horse world. Ugh.
> 
> Another example. Tri-Colored paint. Eh. No again. It's a Bay Paint. No such thing a tri-colored, no matter how cool it would be.
> 
> *Edit -* I know there are several shades of Dun and Dun Dilutes. Red Dun, Golden Dun.....and Grulla is a dilute, but still if it was combined it would more than likely be classified as a dun, considering the fact that buckskin is sandy and there are sandy duns too. Any of the Dun colors combined with bUckskin would either be a dun or a buckskin. Examples:
> 
> Red Dun w/o points - Sorrel/Chestnut.
> 
> Grulla w/o points - Grey
> 
> Golden Dun w/o points - Buckskin.
> 
> Add black points to almost any color except brown and you get some sort of dun. Bay is the other color with black points. Differance is, bays don't have the stripe on the back. Another Dun definition.
> 
> Make sense?


this is incorrect a grulla without dun is just a black horse E-aa

mini genetics lesson here:
red black factor/Extention:E-for ability to produce black and red color past the follicle. e-for the ability to only produce red past the follicle
agouti: A- the ability to restrict black to points, a- the inability to restrict black 
Creme: Crcr-carries one copy of the creme gene can dilute red and bay to palomino or buckskin does not dilute black. CrCr- carries two copies of creme gene creates a 'double dilute' cremello on red base(ee) pearlino on bay base (E-A-) smokey creme (E-aa)
Dun: Dd- carries one Dun gene will act on any base color has a 50% chance of passing it to offspring. DD- carries two copies of the dun gene will pass 100% of the time to offspring

so to the question can a horse be buckskin and dun i.e dunskin YES yes they can the horses read out would be E-A-CrcrD- meaning it would have at least one dominant extention gene, at least one Dominant Agouti gene, only one Creme gene and at least one Dun gene. it would look basically like a buckskin but have the peachy dilution of a dun and would be VERY pale as well think buttermilk buckskin but lighter with a peachy hue to it.if it didn't have that peachy hue it was probably nd1 (non dun 1) which gives the primitive markings of a dun but little to no extra dilution. idk what it is about the dun gene but it causes a peachy hue to most coat colors except for black. if you're really interested in learning about coat colors though you can join Equine Color Genetics on Facebook its got a lot of color experts and people who are very up to date on new genetics information.


----------



## BuckskinMama

riccil0ve said:


> Thank you wild_spot! Helpful as always. =] I'll be sure to pass on the information to my friend.
> 
> Another question: If my bay filly had zebra stripes, would she be a dun, or a bay with stripes? She has a dorsal stripe, and the connection of black legs to brown body is pretty unusual, not like any other bay horses I've seen. Dad is a dun with zebra markings, mom is a bay. Just curious. =]


your mare sounds like she is possibly just nd1 (non dun 1) like my mare Lady ( https://www.facebook.com/Sonnys.shaded.lady/ ) it has the primitives of Dun (as it is a mutation of the original Dun gene) but little to no extra or peachy dilution.


----------



## BuckskinMama

actually yes, double creme dilutes will always have blue eyes unless there is another gene at play such as champagne or pearl, in which case they cannot be a true double creme and will likely have the amber eyes of a champagne or of a pearl as creme, pearl, and champagne are all on the same allele so they can only carry a total of two of the genes heterozygously or one of the genes homozygously.


----------



## BuckskinMama

Quixotic said:


> Green eyes are found on horses that are either Creme + Pearl or double Pearl dilutes. Amber eyes are found on Champagnes. Double Creme dilutes have blue eyes.


i'mma settle in and read the whole thread one of these times lol but I keep seeing so much misinformation that I keep having to stop and correct it >.< there is absolutely NO visual difference between the three double dilutes except what is seen by owners wanting their perlino to stand out however insignificantly from the cremello down the street. or from the smokey creme stallion thats on the same page as their perlinos stallion. all double dilutes have blue eyes and a creamy coat. regardless of their base color there is no set color i've seen tested cremellos who look like they've spent all year rolling in cheeto dust and have an orange hue despite having been kept indoors all show season and washed every other day. and i've seen tested smokey cremes who look as white as freshly fallen snow. (sorry this was a reply to the wrong person for some reason my screen must have jumped just as I clicked quick reply lol was meant for the person who said that certain creme horses have amber eyes lol)


----------



## danicelia24

Ok just because I've seen a lot of comments about registered horse colors. 
Registries are the LAST people to update and modify their color genectic choices. They are always way behind the ball on what color genectics have discovered. I have a grulla that was registered buckskin.

Also to a horse absolutely can be both a buckskin and dun. Point in fact is my colts dad is a color tested dunskin. 

And I have no idea who said that a grulla without the dun is a grey but that is 100% incorrect. A grulla without dun is a black horse. If a grulla had the grey gene the horse would be grey. And that is because the grey gene modifies the entire coat no matter what the base coat color was.

For clarification:
Black+ dun= grulla
Black+ dun+ grey= grey
Bay+ cream= buckskin
Bay+ cream+ dun= dunskin 
Red+ dun= red dun
Red+ cream= palomino
Red+ cream+ dun= dunalino


----------



## danicelia24

For Better clarification here are some photos

Grulla:










Smoky Grulla (note the similarities vs a regular grulla):










Grulla going grey:










Buckskin (Note the lack of primitives):










Dunskin (This is SBR Formula One):









Bay Dun (Note the distinct primitives but darker body color than the dunskin):










Bay horse with distinct countershading (Note the lack of color dilution on the body and way the "dorsal" fades:










Red dun (Note the very peachy body color and dark red primitives):










Dunalino (Note the golden hue is paler and dark gold dorsal):


----------



## Zexious

Subbing<3


----------



## SorrelHorse

This is a very old thread. I'm pretty sure my younger sister made the reply of mine back when she still lived with me, yes the information is incorrect. Weird to see some names in the backlog too that I haven't seen in a long time.


----------

