# Is endurance racing ethical?



## Zeus

I am interested in endurance riding. I would love for my horse and I to get into it. I have recently come across some endurance races ( as a preface: not that I myself am considering these) where horses canter/gallop for a 12 mile stretch. It's a relay, if you will. After 12 miles, the rider switches horses, then sprints off for another 12 miles. 
This to me sounds terribly unethical for the horse. I could understand trotting interchanged with cantering with water stops/vet checks along the way. However, there are so many unsanctioned races out there. Is this normal? How many of you out there have heard of these races? 

I really like the prospect of endurance riding but where I live everyone is into this hardcore sport, so I am clueless about endurance, and have nobody to give me the real scoop. Help!


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## gingerscout

I personally would love to get into it, although I lack the training, never been near an arabian, and am too heavy I think to do it.. so can be a dream for me..maybe someday..LOL


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## ShirtHotTeez

It sounds like fun

but

what jumps out at me is

- are there vet check points?
- if there are prizes, you expose the sport to the unscrupulous and careless
- the greater the prizes, the worse the potential of overexerting the horse/s
- are there rules/guidelines
- it sounds set up in such a way you need ground support with you, so if you are a sole operator it is difficult to participate.
- who are the co-ordinators, what experience do they have
- what safety measures do they have for horses/riders

Join in, have fun, try and win!!, but always think of your horse first. Always speak up if you see something unethical or bad practice, it will help keep the sport honest and desirable


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## Zeus

ShirtHotTeez: I absolutely agree with you. I think you are right that when big cash prizes/trailers/etc. are introduced it greatly increases the likelihood of it not being about the horse anymore. 
I would never enter a race that did not have vet checks. Maybe if these "sprint" races had vet checks I would feel better about it? I guess my question is if this whole galloping for 12 miles thing is ok. I know I could not sprint for 12 miles straight.


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## gottatrot

In the FEI races that are 100 miles, the horses often canter almost the entire ride. I've never heard of a horse galloping in endurance.

If I remember right, Nobby, ridden by Maria Alvarez Ponton from Spain cantered the whole ride to win the WEG championship in 2010.
I'm not sure how often the vet checks are on FEI rides, but I've done rides where the first vet check is at 16 miles, so if you cantered that distance you may not necessarily stop and rest. My horse trotted and cantered the 16 miles before resting without difficulty (she wanted to go faster the whole time). 

Something to remember is that the horses are conditioned very well and checked out by vets before, during and after the ride. Many horses have lower pulse rates at the canter, and it is an easier gait for them to do endurance at than the trot. Riders will have the horse change leads every so often.

Whether it is ethical may depend on your own views. Many horses are ridden thousands of racing miles doing endurance and retire sound, and live long, healthy lives. There are many horses that can't do endurance at all safely. If you choose a horse wisely and only train and race as long as the horse enjoys it, then it seems fine to me. 

Personally I don't do the longer races, but I don't run marathons either. I race up to half marathons myself, and suspect going longer and farther may be hard on the body over the long term, so I keep the same standard for my horses.
You might say people don't sprint for 12 miles, but the current world class marathoners run each mile in under 5 minutes. I can't even run a single mile that fast, but they go that fast for 26 miles and don't stop to rest at all. So with that in mind, asking a horse to canter at a pace he has been conditioned for 12 miles isn't that extreme.

In the U.S., I believe most people ride their endurance horses ethically. Any horse sport has the potential for those who will treat horses poorly such as the one below.
Al Reef Cup Endurance Fatality Incites Outrage, FEI Investigation | The Chronicle of the Horse


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## ShirtHotTeez

I think the races themselves aren't inherently bad. If good people enter and do their best for their horses the sport can grow and define itself. Those good people need to challenge bad practice and make event co-ordinators accountable.

gottatrot.. that is a terrible thing to happen, in that article. Before I read it I thought 'well, you can't make it a world news article every time an unfortunate incident happens, after all, people die on the roads every day'. But this horse had failed the previous three FEI endurance rides on lameness. He should have been banned from high level endurance or jumping. The rider, by entering this horse and knowing its history, is the sort of person that gives equestrian sport a bad name.


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## Dehda01

The rides are called ride and ties and are done withe a partner. You are not galloping the horse, typically. Trotting, some cantering, some galloping. There are usually multiple vet checks and condionioning awards at the end. For more info see the below website. 

What is Ride and Tie?


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## greentree

Endurance racing in the US is THE most ethical horse sport. PERIOD. THE HORSE. ALWAYS COMES FIRST. All of the rules are FOR THE HORSE.

Stick with AERC races, and you can't go too wrong.


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## Eole

A 12 miles relay race has nothing to do with endurance riding, in my book. Where did you see that? Unless your talking about the Mongol derby?

Totally agree with Greentree. Endurance in America has very little in common with the FEI races. AERC rules really are protecting the horse from being overriden. Vet checks will disqualify a horse with any lameness or fatigue.

You'll meet endurance riders on ANY type of horse and rider of ANY weight, shape and age. If you have a horse that can trot and a good saddle that fits, you can do endurance. It's about training your horse properly, discovering new trails, new friends and having fun. 

FYI, endurance distances (in US) start at 50 miles. Anything under 50 miles is a limited distance ride. LD rides are fun too, and a good way to find out if the sport is for you and your horse. Ride and Tie is a relay race with a horse and two riders that alternate riding and running, on a shorter distance of course. Not what OP is describing at all.


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## Zexious

There are unethical PEOPLE in all disciplines of horseback riding. But no, endurance riding is NOT inherently unethical.


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## Hadassah

Anytime you have a human controlling a horse in an event there is room for unethical actions. That is why correctly run events have sets of rules and procedures to protect the horse. The AERC events I attended were well run. i voluntarily pulled my horse on an LD ride as I was seeing some gait issues. I didn't need a vet to let me know but it is comforting to know your horse is vetted well at these events. 

From what I'm seeing AERC rides are being promoted just as much a family ride and "to finish is to win" as a competitor event. Where else can you ride with the champions while they compete for top billing?


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## Zeus

Thanks for the responses. I am sharing a link to one of these so called endurance races. 
I am sure most endurance races are well regulated and the people have conditioned their horses thoroughly through adequate training and nutrition. 
I feel like I am opening up a can of worms by sharing this. I do not support this, but maybe some of you out there have seen something like this? 

http://www.navajotimes.com/sports/2010/0710/072210riderstest.php

I'm sick from this.


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## Jan1975

Hadassah said:


> Anytime you have a human controlling a horse in an event there is room for unethical actions.


Yes. I don't think you can say that ANY type of riding is safe or inhumane. There are just too many variables depending on the specific event, rider, etc. It's our job as the ones with the big brains to make smart choices and to not put our animals in unhealthy situations.


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## bsms

Zeus said:


> ...I'm sick from this.


That is the sort of endurance racing Bandit used to do. With a heavy rider, 800 lb Bandit DID brace his back hard going fast...but he also obviously really likes people, and his previous owner really liked him. I have issues with how Bandit had been shod, but I sure wouldn't get sick over him being in those races.

His previous owner said they were counting on Bandit's speed in one race, but they pulled out of the race because he was losing condition during training and they didn't want to take any chances with him.

Mia is now a brood mare whose offspring will be used in those races. If this year's mating goes well, they will try artificial insemination with one of the very good endurance stallions. The guys I met who were involved in it all loved horses. I'm more comfortable with what they are doing than I am with some other well-regarded horse sports.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Zeus said:


> I'm sick from this.


Why are you sick?


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## Eole

I didn't find much info on that "Little Beaver Pony Express Race", except that it involves big prices and money (new trailer and 3000$ for 1st place).
I didn't find anything about vet involvement.
BSMS, do you know if they have vets at those events?
This kind of event would have me worried about horse welfare. When money is involved, horse's best interest rarely is. It's closer to thoroughbred racing than endurance.

But, this is not the sport of endurance. "To finish is to Win" is the motto. And to finish (get completion) your horse must be "fit to continue" at the final vet check. Even if you finish, horse can fail the final vet check.

As Hadassah says, it's pretty cool to have beginners, families with kids, riding along world top riders in the same event. You can learn from the best riders and they usually are helpful and willing to help a newbie.


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## Hadassah

Well, nothing in the article is too big of a concern. They are racing for money and prizes but so do a lot of horse events. (Kentucky Derby comes to mind). It is not AERC sanctioned. It is on the reservation. I tried to find 2016 Little Beaver Pony Express race and couldn't which I would conclude that this is a closed race available only to tribal members. Which makes sense, otherwise what they have collected for their people to win in prizes could easily go to an outsider, highly competitive hundred miler.

One thing to consider when looking at reservations, they have their own laws and jurisdiction. It may be in the USA but they are also an entity unto themselves. We lived on the Greasewood Navajo Rez, AZ, in the 60's. My dad was a counselor there and my sister was born there. It's a different world.

And I've said this before and will continue to say it: not everyone rides, feeds, keeps, or cares for their horses like I do. It is real easy to point fingers at poorer areas, poorer countries (we saw this when we lived on the Mexican border) and think "how awful" but you just have to have some sort of acceptance and peace and go on. Heck for awhile we tried being vegan and those folks are so radical they don't think a horse should be ridden. Period.


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## Avna

From what I can tell, endurance racing in the US is one of the most ethical of all available horse sports. First, it measures and proves something of real value -- the fitness of a horse to go across distance at a spanking pace, as opposed to those many sports that have a very strong element of what looks pretty to a judge -- a subjective criterion which can and often does lead to both exaggeration and suffering. 

Second, horses are scrutinized, throughout the race, for their ability to continue safely, using measurable criteria (ie: recovery time). 

If I could imagine trotting for hours at a time I might consider it myself!

I could wish that there were more equine sports held to such a high standard. We wouldn't have speed horses broken down long before they even got to mature, we wouldn't have show horses in grotesque shoes, or subjected to behind-the-scenes abuses, all for the sake of a ribbon. 

Plus I love the way endurance has blasted open the world of saddlery and tack. No longer do you have to choose between either looking like a cowboy or landed British aristocracy. "What works best" is the guiding star for endurance tack, not what it looks like or to what culture you have pledged allegiance. I am in complete agreement with that.


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## bsms

Eole said:


> ...BSMS, do you know if they have vets at those events?...


No, I don't know much about it. After watching Bandit's hoof grow back at a different angle, I didn't want Bandit's old owner/Mia's new owner to continue as my farrier, and that probably gave offense. Didn't mean to, but I couldn't think of any very subtle or gentle ways of saying I didn't want him trimming Bandit's hooves (or the rest of our horses). So I don't have any communication with him any longer, which I regret.

He obviously adored Bandit. The first time I met him, he showed me pictures of Bandit and talked about him. But Mia's breeding was excellent, and her value as a brood mare for future horses won out...and we swapped.

But I am certain of this - the guy and his friends from the reservation LOVE horses. Their enthusiasm and affection for their horses was unmistakable. One of Mia's new owner's lifelong dreams is teaching a new way of riding and training horses. He wants to spend the rest of his life working with horses. I wish him well, and hope it works out for him. There is some rough riding on the reservation, but Trooper arrived here after being loaned to a ranch in Colorado looking like this:










His sides were already healing when that photo was taken, but he still has lumpy flesh from where he was spurred - 7 years later! He arrived here terrified of "Cowboy hats". Would go into a blind panic at the sight of someone wearing a cowboy hat. Bandit grew up on the reservation, and he likes to follow people around. I know which I prefer!

That doesn't mean everything the folks on the reservation do is right, any more than everything I do is right. My horses live in a corral. On weeks like the last couple (and next week) where the weather isn't cooperating, they are stuck in a corral. Lots of people would call that cruel. But they are healthy, act content most of the time and are very content around people. Mia had too much racing blood in her to be 'right' for a corral, but she seemed pretty happy most of the time.

So who is worse? The guy who races his horses, or the guy who keeps them in a corral? There are no good places to run a horse near me, so my horses walk and trot when out of the corral. Cantering is rare, and usually brief. Just too many rocks and they can tear up their feet in a hurry. Arguably, they would have a better life on the reservation, with owners who take them out for long runs, than they have with me. 

I watched a video of a lady teaching her horse dressage today. It made me feel sick. The horse was tense, behind the vertical, with a behind the motion rider. I'm sure she would say bad things about how I ride, but I wouldn't let someone like that get on my horse. I'd rather have a total newbie doing the riding.

"_It is real easy to point fingers... and think "how awful" but you just have to have some sort of acceptance and peace and go on_."- Hadassah

I can point to a dressage rider I strongly disliked, but she could point at me riding down a paved road, or letting my 14.3 Appy being ridden by a 6'6" guy and say I'm worse. I guess I live in a glass house. I can say who is or is not allowed to ride MY horses, but I don't have a lot of room for talk. Not really.


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## gottatrot

Avna said:


> If I could imagine trotting for hours at a time I might consider it myself!


That's the joke in endurance...the horses are drug free but a lot of the riders take painkillers. If you can take the training, then the horse usually can too. 
The most unethical thing I've seen is that some riders try to start a horse they know is slightly off or has not been conditioned quite enough. But I know marathoners try that with their own bodies too. It's a kind of unrealistic optimism, and then the horse or the runner just doesn't finish or has a hard time.

There are so many conflicts in horsemanship. I believe that true horse people put the horse first, and that means they keep the horses as happy as they reasonably can. If they are in a sport and they see the horse is not enjoying it or it is detrimental to the horse, they change things or don't participate. There are a lot of gray areas, and it's not always obvious what is best for the horse. Sometimes small discomforts are better for the "big picture" health of the horse, such as using a bit on a strong horse versus going bitless and having the horse get loose and hit by a car. Or not riding the horse at all.


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## Idrivetrotters

I am finally getting to compete in LDs this year with my smooth gaited Standardbred. If you are not up for trotting for 25 miles or more, look at a gaited horse. In theory, any sound and healthy horse can do LDs and possibly 50's but it takes a special horse for the 100's. There are so many breeds that do LDs and Endurance, from QHs, Fox Trotters, TWH, TBs, SSH, ASB, Standards, and various Arabs and Arab crosses (plus a few mules), so start what is in your barn, go to the NATRC webpage and the Aerc web pages to get loads of good information and see how far your horse can take you.


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## stevenson

I have never heard of that Navajo race before. That is animal abuse. Probably cannot put them in jail for it, as it is a Native American traditional race. It is still animal abuse.
Totally disgusting and people should complain .


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## Hadassah

After reading the article, yet again, nothing raises a red flag. Why is this abuse? Because they aren't AERC sanctioned? It is a Pony Express Race. They are NOT using the same horse for 69 miles. The Little Beaver Pony Express race is actually Jicarilla Apache. Here's a good website that explains what they do. Each leg a horse is only ridden 8 to 13 miles. They work and train for this. I've been to an AERC event where I saw a horse camped out and green goo coming out of his nose as his rider pushed too hard. There is inerrant danger in ANY horse event for the careless or clueless human to override their horse. Does that make the event bad as a whole? Personally, I think the Native American groups doing this are doing something positive. 

G&R Racing. Endurance Horse Racing


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## bsms

stevenson said:


> I have never heard of that Navajo race before. That is animal abuse...


So...what is your problem with it?


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## greentree

I don't see any problem with it either....it is only 69 miles, total, so the one horse is only going 17+ miles, AND the rider was walking when the horse got tired. 17 miles is really not a lot for a horse.


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## beau159

Zeus said:


> This to me sounds terribly unethical for the horse.


Well for a completely different twist, you do know how mail was transported during the civil war?

The Pony Express. 

Horses used to run for long periods all the time in the Old West. They can handle it. 




Zeus said:


> I really like the prospect of endurance riding but where I live everyone is into this hardcore sport, so I am clueless about endurance, and have nobody to give me the real scoop. Help!


Comparing endurance races to this pony express race are NOT the same thing. 

Endurance races are completed on ONE horse. You do not swap horses. And there are various checkpoints along the way where your horse must pass a vet exam to continue. Not to mention there are a lot of restrictions on what you can and cannot use for medications. It's pretty tightly regulated.


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## Comfortably Numb

It depends on the definition of "animal cruelty" - if one measures it only by distance travelled, fine, it is not the case here. An easy tick off and a good night's sleep with a clear consciousness.

On the other hand - if one wants to extend it to how many risks a competitor is willing to take in order to win a big prize, then maybe there is a case to discuss:


> According to Stuart Perea, the Pony Express Race coordinator, in the *first leg of the race two horses were lost* and he didn't know of any others.
> Charley recalled a race on Jicarilla a few years ago when his team lost a horse due to a broken leg *when the horse was galloping down a hill*.
> This year, in the first leg of the race, one *horse died because of exhaustion* and the other was *euthanized after suffering a broken leg*, Perea said.


Is it ok to lose 2 horses in the first leg when you have 25 teams altogether? Not so sure.
Was not there and have no idea what the downhill gallop resembled, was it safe to do it?



> As the last teams waited for their riders, Keith, a six-year-old gelding, laid on its side. It was panting and obviously tired from the 12.7-mile leg of the race it had completed. It would stand for a second and limped on its left front leg, then lay down again.
> "He just lays down all the time," said Curt Lopez, 22, of Ojo Encino, N.M.
> He added he wasn't too worried about Keith because it commonly lies down.
> Keith would eat grass, chew a few bites and stop chewing though he wasn't finished eating. He was still lying down when the Navajo Times left the fourth exchange area.
> 
> ...
> 
> "If a horse is loved and well fed, it is not animal cruelty," he said.


Would you consider the above attitude as the gold standard in horsemanship? Definitely not how I see myself and my horse together.


And a general comment on:


> He added that the horse and the jockey race together and are a team.
> "The jockeys go through just as much as the horses do," he said.


Please, does the horse choose to do it or the rider? It is all too easy to wash one's hands with the trivial "we are both in this together", when the other part of the team cannot speak. Even if the riders go through as much as the horses (which they clearly do not), it is the rider's choice, not the horse's.
For me, any time a human is mounted on the horse it is the human's responsibility to care for the animal. Simple as that.


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## bsms

Hadn't seen anything in the articles I read about broken legs. No mention of it here:

The Navajo Times Online - Annual Little Beaver Pony Express Race takes riders and horses to the limit

Or here: G&R Racing. Endurance Horse Racing

Those are the previously posted links.

YouTube videos here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQOu9JNPkus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zQLMLNPLGE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onswb3GBud8

The Navajo reservation isn't exactly a hotbed of modern attitudes toward horses. That is part of why Mia's new owner said he wants to change attitudes about training horses and riding them - and as a Navajo, he might succeed where outsiders would fail. 

Photos from a facebook page for the Little Beaver Pony Express 2014 are below:








​ 
















​ 
Is it the same as an AERC race? Not hardly. Is it cruel? Compared to what?

I tend to dislike competitions involving horses. When humans compete, horses often lose. I hate watching a lot of modern dressage competitions, and the one time I watched low level dressage riders getting a lesson...I had to leave. I don't like watching reiners spin their horses, and the jumps eventers go over are insane.

I can, at least, understand racing a horse. The horses are bred for it, trained for it, and largely exist for it. If I had to choose between training Bandit to run in the "Little Beaver Pony Express Race" or a dressage, reining or barrel racing competition, I'd go with the LB Pony Express.

I realize many others would make a different choice. But like I said...Bandit raced in those races. And while I didn't like how he used his back and front legs when he arrived, he arrived here thinking humans are wonderful. Get him on a trail, and he'll take the lead and step out pretty happily. I don't think Bandit felt abused!

I support most riding IF the rider listens to the horse. That is true of dressage, barrel racing, western pleasure, etc. It doesn't have to be to my tastes. It is true of trail riding, too.


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## Comfortably Numb

bsms said:


> Hadn't seen anything in the articles I read about broken legs. No mention of it here:
> 
> The Navajo Times Online - Annual Little Beaver Pony Express Race takes riders and horses to the limit


Huh?! :shock:

The quotes I pasted in my previous post are actually from this particular article - the article on which most comments on this thread are based. Did you actually read it or is the webpage showing different in Austria from in the US?

The rest of your post I have not looked at after reading the part I quoted here.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Comfortably Numb said:


> And a general comment on:
> Please, does the horse choose to do it or the rider?


It's unfortunate to lose a horse in any competition but I don't see this as any worse than fox hunting or steeple chasing. 

As far as the horse's choice, of course it's the rider's choice. I don't ask my horses if they choose to go to a show or on a trail ride, I load them in the trailer and we go. They are out on pasture doing what horses do 24/7 most days. I figure they can do what I want to do for 5-8 hrs. on a weekend in return. They are not pets like dogs, they are using animals. If I didn't ride horses, I'd probably be out riding dirt bikes, racing cars or snow skiing. The BIG difference is, I don't have to feed those things. I have to feed and care for a horse whether I use him for recreation or not. I don't find it unreasonable to expect them to entertain me on occasion.


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## Comfortably Numb

Correct what you say - what is not correct is that by trimmng my comment you remove the core of it and then respond to something that you produced. Basically discoursing with yourself.
The human is the leader, the human bears the responsiblity for the team and the human should not make it sound is if it is so much of a suffering when the human makes the choices. I mean, my eyes watered for these poor riders, so much they need to go through!


In my initial post I posed very specific questions:
Is the treatment of the horse Keith what you would consider good horsemanship?
Is a statement such as "If a horse is loved and well fed, it is not animal cruelty" something you sign under?
Is it statistically acceptable to lose 2 horses in the first leg of a race of 25 teams (to a broken leg and exhaustion)?

Everybody can answer for themselves. My answers to the above three questions are No, No, and No. 
Given, a broken leg can happen. But exhaustion is acceptable?! Simply fantastic for a horse forum majority opinion - really lifts my mood.


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## bsms

Comfortably Numb said:


> Huh?! :shock:
> 
> The quotes I pasted in my previous post are actually from this particular article - the article on which most comments on this thread are based. Did you actually read it or is the webpage showing different in Austria from in the US?
> 
> The rest of your post I have not looked at after reading the part I quoted here.


Sorry. I missed it. I did look, and even today I missed it until I did a word search for "died". My error.

The rest of my post stands on its own. You can read it or not. I've looked at videos of the start of the race and saw nothing unusual. I watched about a dozen videos (maybe 40+ minutes) of the last few years of races and saw a mixture of good and bad riding, but I didn't seen anything that looked cruel or excessively demanding. 

It isn't as though they are being jumped over incredible jumps, or make any repetitive motions unnatural to a horse. The start just looked like a bunch of folks asking their horse to canter.

Compared to steeplechase, what they are doing is mild. As for Keith's horse being exhausted...racing will do that to a person. Been there, done that, using me as a runner. Is it cruel to ask a horse to run hard? Well, if you are not beating it bloody or spurring holes in its sides (and I have a ranch horse with scars on his sides from being spurred to cut cattle), I'd say no. 

Some horses are competitive. They like winning. Mia was that way, which is one of the reasons she is now a broodmare on the reservation. They are hoping that competitive nature will pass to her foals. A good racehorse NEEDS that competitive spirit. You cannot push a horse with a whip as fast as a competitive horse will push itself.

So no, that doesn't bother me.

"_Is it statistically acceptable to lose 2 horses in the first leg of a race of 25 teams (to a broken leg and exhaustion)?_"

Yes. Statistics can happen like that. If it happened every race, then the answer would be no. If there was something about the race - the terrain they were covering, for example - that made it likely, I'd say no. But I saw nothing demanding in the videos I watched. The terrain is not outrageous. The horses were not being whipped hard. They showed no signs of struggling to stay upright. I saw nothing in any of the videos I watched indicating dangerous terrain or people pushing the horse cruelly.

Would I like to see some vet checks thrown in? Yes. I also like the AERC style of endurance racing better. But is that likely to happen in these races? No. That doesn't strike me as matching the lifestyle. From the article:"Her sister, Alexia Stash, 13, who finished the race for Slash Productions, was carried from her horse after the race. Her feet were hanging in the air as she wrapped her arms around her parent's neck. The corners of her mouth were white.

But in recalling the race, she remembers her horse stopping less than 20 yards from the finish line. At that moment, the team was running fourth, but was passed in that short distance and ended up in ninth place.

Alexia said all she could think in those moments was, "Dang, I got passed."​A horse CAN race safely in them IF the owner takes simple precautions.

I only personally know one guy who has been in those races, and I own one horse who used to race in them. I'm not thrilled with how the horse was being raced because the shoeing was off and the horse was compensating with how he moved his leg. But that was a mistake by the owner (a farrier). Mistakes can have a cruel effect, but are not cruel by their nature. 

In his defense, it wasn't until Bandit had been barefoot for months that I started connecting the dots between what I saw in his bare hoof and what he was doing at times when riding. But he had pulled Bandit from the team before a race, knowing it would probably cost them the race, when he felt something was wrong. He was obviously very fond of Bandit, and Bandit arrived here thinking humans are wonderful. If I decide to sell Bandit this spring, I'll offer the original owner a chance to take him. I suspect Bandit would run faster now...

On the whole, asking horses and riders to condition themselves with the goal of running 12 miles fast is not cruel. I think asking a horse to run fast and hard on a regular basis is kinder to the horse than keeping them in a stable and riding them once a week, or than riding a horse in an arena all the time. Bandit tolerates our little arena, but perks up and acts happy when we leave the arena and head out. That tells me his former life was not abuse. Not in his eyes.


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## Comfortably Numb

I saw your three videos - they show all of 200-300m of track... Out of 69 miles. No way a basis for sound conclusions. From what is shown, I would love to ride there, this is not the point here. I also ride terrain that in my opinion is much more difficult. Lots of stones in the ground and higher elevation. If you care to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=A0V55ySm1W8#t=79
Never had a lame horse, let alone anything broken, knock on wood. Hours of riding in that terrain - I travel there several times per year.

For the exhaustion argument I was clearly referring to the horse that died from it, not to Keith. Keith seems to be lame and maybe/possibly/probably exhausted. His gentle owner is not concerned about it as it is "common" for Keith - contrary to what horse nature dictates. To me the 22-year old owner is the bigger concern, but again, we are all different.

There is a mention of a broken leg galloping down a hill. This is in addition to the two dead horses and likely in another start. Yet in addition to that there was another euthanised horse mentioned to a broken leg. And this is only one article - does that cover all accidents? Surely not. So statistics are quite difficult to assess.

In the end, I agree it is not the terrain that is cruel - I think it is the riders. And not all riders, but some of them. Is there animal cruelty in this race? For me to ride a horse into its death from exhaustion is cruel, 100% and not debatable. For others apparently it is not - I will not try to change anyone's opinion.


P.P. You had the guts to hold a hand up and admit your fault (not that it was questionable of course), but I also find it quite funny that people actually liked the post where you argued factually incorrect having not read the article. Apparently they did not pay much attention to the article as well - goes to show how reading is done when people discuss on the forum.


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## bsms

"I also find it quite funny that people actually liked the post where you argued factually incorrect having not read the article"

Likes do not indicate total agreement. Folks could easily have been "liking" the pictures, or the presence of videos.

The videos I watched - and I watched almost all I could find, since Bandit could have been in some of them - showed no signs of abuse nor anything about the race itself which creates abuse. They do not clear all races or all individual owners of abuse. That standard is not possible.

I'm fond of saying "When people compete, horses lose". That can be true for any horse sport or practice. I find much of the dressage I've seen disgusting, but that doesn't mean well done dressage is not wonderful. Eventers die - both horse and rider - often enough, and steeplechase races have their share of deaths - but that suggests more thought is needed in specific cases, not that it is all bad.

Maybe I'm sensitive about it since I've been accused of abusing my horses. How? By owning them, or riding them - the PETA types. I've had folks on the forum tell me I abuse them because they live in a corral and don't have free access to pasture. I've had people tell me I abuse them by riding them at 25-30% of their bodyweight, there being people who set 15% as the upper level for non-abuse. Bandit was branded - another reason why some would say he has been abused.

Ranch horses are ridden when it is 20 deg below zero, and colder. My horses are often ridden above 100 deg, which some would call abuse.

If there was something inherently abusive about the racing, I'd object. I haven't seen any. There are races where all the horses charge down a very steep hill. That might well be abuse. The US Cavalry used to use a similar training practice, and I'd call it abusive:










This one was not going to end well for either:​ 







​ 
Italian Cavalry:








​ 
I think horses "understand" racing against each other far better than they do living their lives ridden in an arena. Horses are capable of incredible jumping, but I find it less natural to horses than flat racing. As a category or as a hobby, I don't see the Navajo races as abusive or disgusting. There are individual cases where individuals treat their horses wrong, but that covers every horse sport I've seen AND a number of people who own horses without competing.

BTW - my riding includes both riding on pavement (which some consider abuse) and rocky trails between cactus. A slip entering a wash could kill one of my horses, or me. Mia (now a broodmare on the reservation) sometimes backed up toward drops that would have killed her if I hadn't been able to turn her around in time. Heck, I once took a lunge line lesson bareback on a horse and became its last rider. The instructor had raised her from a foal, and was shocked when the 25 year old mare began bucking. Turned out she had been developing a leg problem for some time, and her leg broke during the lesson - on level ground in an arena on a lunge line. When it didn't heal, she was put down. But lunging in an arena is not inherently abusive...


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## phantomhorse13

Comfortably Numb said:


> does the horse choose to do it or the rider? It is all too easy to wash one's hands with the trivial "we are both in this together", when the other part of the team cannot speak. Even if the riders go through as much as the horses (which they clearly do not), it is the rider's choice, not the horse's.
> For me, any time a human is mounted on the horse it is the human's responsibility to care for the animal. Simple as that.


While I agree wholeheartedly that it is ALWAYS the human's job to take care of the horse, when speaking of true endurance riding, the horse most def needs to be a willing partner.. you simply cannot _force_ a horse to go 50+ miles without doing something which would have you eliminated in AERC events (whipping, hazing, failing the vet check, etc).

I have actually seen many 100 mile riders who look horrible while their horses look like they haven't done much of anything at the end of a ride - and that is even with the drugs the humans are allowed. Horses aren't allowed any medications during the competition, and there is testing.


Personally, I cringe at how many things are called "endurance" as it puts such a negative connotation on it. And in my experience, the shorter the race, the more likely someone is going to attempt to win with an unprepared horse. When human ego is involved, the horse is always the loser.


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## bsms

If the legs in these races were 50 miles, it would probably be safer for the horse...just as 5K races attract more unprepared humans than marathons.


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## Comfortably Numb

phantomhorse13 said:


> While I agree wholeheartedly that it is ALWAYS the human's job to take care of the horse, when speaking of true endurance riding, the horse most def needs to be a willing partner.. you simply cannot _force_ a horse to go 50+ miles without doing something which would have you eliminated in AERC events (whipping, hazing, failing the vet check, etc).
> 
> I have actually seen many 100 mile riders who look horrible while their horses look like they haven't done much of anything at the end of a ride - and that is even with the drugs the humans are allowed. Horses aren't allowed any medications during the competition, and there is testing.
> 
> 
> Personally, I cringe at how many things are called "endurance" as it puts such a negative connotation on it. And in my experience, the shorter the race, the more likely someone is going to attempt to win with an unprepared horse. When human ego is involved, the horse is always the loser.


Not sure whether you disagree with me by responding, but I do not see anything that goes against what I had written. Of course not all horses can be pushed to do 80km and some will be more able (due to conditioning, conformation, age, general health, mindset, etc.) than others. 

It is our responsibility to know what our horses can achieve and not push them beyond their limits, which if not done, could lead to the above mentioned death by exhaustion - and this to me is animal abuse. Apparently it is not animal abuse to the general forum population. Fine, we all live by our beliefs - no problem, people are different.

Riding a horse into its death from exhaustion is something that the human controls, whereas freak accidents do happen and it is unreasonable to classify them as abuse. Here is a very tragic example of a freak accident that I would not call abuse - two girls ride out in the field, one falls off her horse, the horse runs back toward the barn, the moment it leaps over the track, a train runs into it and kills it. This unfortunately is a true story that happened yesterday at the barn where I board. No joke - an awful tragedy.


bsms, for weight, temperature and similar discussion topics - for me there is one judge - the horse. Some will be OK with only 15%, others will happily go for 30%. It really depends so I am with you here.
In terms of boarding - my horse lives in a box with limited daily turnout (standard here) and I work with her daily/twice per day in addition to turnout - this is not how I want her to live, but I have no other option right now. Am I cruel to her? I try to do my best and I do not see her suffering. It is nevertheless on my mind and my goal is to change the setting in the coming year or two, we shall see, it is not easy. 
She is well cared for, but I would be much happier if she could live closer to what is considered more "natural" in terms of feeding, herd interaction and moving.


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## Zexious

At this point, I think semantics are being argued. How an individual classifies abuse matters little to the conversation.


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## gottatrot

Comfortably Numb said:


> It is our responsibility to know what our horses can achieve and not push them beyond their limits, which if not done, could lead to the above mentioned death by exhaustion - and this to me is animal abuse. Apparently it is not animal abuse to the general forum population.


Something I had difficulty with in the article was that it was obviously not written by someone with any actual knowledge about horses or endurance riding, so I didn't feel I could believe in its accuracy. 

Speaking of death by exhaustion is one thing that highlights this. Horses don't die of exhaustion anymore than we do. They die of dehydration, electrolyte imbalances, colic, etc. Even if a horse gets into this state, it can still often be managed by vet care such as IV fluids and electrolyte administration. 

Since I believe the article was probably exaggerated or at the very least ill-informed or biased, I don't believe it is remotely accurate. In any case, not giving appropriate vet care to horses in trouble would be the issue rather than the length or style of the ride. So I don't think that particular article can be used to determine whether endurance riding is ethical or not.


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## dizzee

Zeus said:


> Thanks for the responses. I am sharing a link to one of these so called endurance races.
> I am sure most endurance races are well regulated and the people have conditioned their horses thoroughly through adequate training and nutrition.
> I feel like I am opening up a can of worms by sharing this. I do not support this, but maybe some of you out there have seen something like this?
> 
> The Navajo Times Online - Annual Little Beaver Pony Express Race takes riders and horses to the limit
> 
> I'm sick from this.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hadassah

gottatrot said:


> Something I had difficulty with in the article was that it was obviously not written by someone with any actual knowledge about horses or endurance riding...
> Since I believe the article was probably exaggerated or at the very least ill-informed or biased, I don't believe it is remotely accurate. In any case, not giving appropriate vet care to horses in trouble would be the issue rather than the length or style of the ride. So I don't think that particular article can be used to determine whether endurance riding is ethical or not.


Bingo! What I've been thinking. That, and it is probably not the proper sub-forum to post it on. I don't go over to the dressage forum and pick a fight about bits. Just saying.


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## ShirtHotTeez

Comfortably Numb said:


> Correct what you say - what is not correct is that by trimmng my comment you remove the core of it and then respond to something that you produced. Basically discoursing with yourself.
> The human is the leader, the human bears the responsiblity for the team and the human should not make it sound is if it is so much of a suffering when the human makes the choices. I mean, my eyes watered for these poor riders, so much they need to go through!
> 
> 
> In my initial post I posed very specific questions:
> Is the treatment of the horse Keith what you would consider good horsemanship?
> Is a statement such as "If a horse is loved and well fed, it is not animal cruelty" something you sign under?
> Is it statistically acceptable to lose 2 horses in the first leg of a race of 25 teams (to a broken leg and exhaustion)?
> 
> Everybody can answer for themselves. My answers to the above three questions are No, No, and No.
> Given, a broken leg can happen. But exhaustion is acceptable?! Simply fantastic for a horse forum majority opinion - really lifts my mood.


It is up to the rider at all times to assess when their horse has 'had enough', and that doesn't mean they have to stop because they broke a sweat.

your specific 3 q's
-The horse Keith should never be allowed to compete, ever - there is more going on there than meets the eye. This is not normal behaviour for any horse, even if it is extremely tired. The owner is irresponsible and the vet checking has failed (the horse has a history of this collapse-not good enough). That does not make everybody else irresponsible.

-There is a difference between extremely tired and completely exhausted. The owner/rider needs to know when they have reached the limit. Vet checks should be preventing horses from the next leg if they think it necessary.

-Statistically acceptable to lose two horses in one leg? Not enough information. To kick up a hallabaloo on this alone is just troublemaking. **** tragic, yes. Two totally unrelated incidents even more tragically happening at a similar place and time. Galloping down a hill? I've done it a hundred times - need more info on the hill, the route chosen for the race, the horse involved.

The horse that died from exhaustion - the rider didn't know when to quit and the vet check failed.

Be careful what you wish for. Non-horsey people stopped foxhunting because they saw it as 'cruel'. Now when foxes reach pest proportions they have to 'poison'. Much kinder i'm sure - NOT. Non-horsey people seem to think horses should be kept at home like lapdogs, they are not lapdogs. It would be cruel to treat them as such. I would bet the majority of these anti-everything people eat meat, bred specifically for them to eat with no choice of there own, but thats not cruel...that suits them, they only want to stop something that doesn't affect themselves.

Real cruelty should be stopped wherever and whenever it occurs, but don't tar whole industries with the same brush. That is total lunacy.

:gallop:


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## Comfortably Numb

I am often stupefied by how opinions written on the internet get read and interpreted. 

I have nothing else to add on that topic. Whatever I had to say, I already did. Let's just agree it is *my* English skills and leave it at that, shall we? :shrug:


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