# Western Riding, turning into/away from leg pressure.. Your opinion



## BuckOff41570

If I have a horse who likes to drop his shoulder into a turn, I'll use inside heel to keep his shoulder up, outside calf to push him over, and my hands to follow through with the maneuver.

If I have a horse that is a little more loopy and likes to throw his shoulder out, I'll use out side heel to pick his shoulder up and in, inside leg (at times, not constant pressure) to keep the horse "up" (moving forward into the bridle), and outside rein to encourage getting that shoulder over.

I don't have a particular style of turning. I more so like to keep the horse within the triangle. (in between my hands, seat, and legs) I try not to let them throw their hip, shoulder, or ribcage out and I try not to let them drop into their turns. I want a balanced turn.


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## wild_spot

Hurrah! Someone else who has thought about this :]

I constantly debate this with myself. 

On a circle, I use inside leg to get him to bend his body through the curve of the circle. But in gameing or rollcks/haunch turns I use my outside leg to get him to cut his shoulder over.


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## Midwest Paint

wild_spot said:


> Hurrah! Someone else who has thought about this :]


LOL, Absolutely! It's always driven me a bit bonkers, but lately after more of a work load coming in for training, I started wondering about how the purchasers of the horses I trained, would be riding. If I work with one under saddle and train to give to pressure one way, will a future new owner ride differently and what issues will arise from that? I know those are small details to many, but it came up in a group discussion and the answers were soooo inconsistant and varied! LOL


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## Whipple

I think this is definitely a point of discussion when selling a riding horse. 
Personally, my instinct is to press with my inside calf. I haven't ridden enough for this to even come up, but it is a great point!


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## wild_spot

I think in regards to sharper turns, like rollbacks and haunch turns, it is widely accepted common practise to use the outside leg. It's *kind of* like a moving turn on the backhand, hence the outside leg. 

It's the more subtle turns and corners that get me. I have to say, i'm guilty of doing one and then another depending on the day... lol. But I also think that each method has it's place with individual horses issues, such as dropping a shoulder or a shoulder blowing out, blowing out the hind, etc...

I'm not sure that it would make too much of an issue if a future rider used the opposite method than the horse was trained in. To me, basically they are supportive sides of the same movement... If you get what I mean, lol!


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## smrobs

My Dad spent most of his life training horses for other people and when the whole "ride using only leg cues" craze popped up, that is how he started training them. That all changed when one customer called him back after picking up his horse nearly in a panic. Even though he had been shown how to properly cue the horse, he couldn't seem to hit the right spot and was not getting the response he wanted. From that point on, Dad kind of adopted the philosophy "Simpler is better". Many people use their seats and legs to cue for a turn but with beginning riders or poor riders, that can cause more problems. Therefore, we use the reins to control the forequarters and the legs to control the hindquarters. The only time that I use leg cues is to ask for forward movement, sidepasses, lead changes, or if I want them to pivot on their front end. I use reins for everything else.


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## BuckOff41570

smrobs said:


> My Dad spent most of his life training horses for other people and when the whole "ride using only leg cues" craze popped up, that is how he started training them. That all changed when one customer called him back after picking up his horse nearly in a panic. Even though he had been shown how to properly cue the horse, he couldn't seem to hit the right spot and was not getting the response he wanted. From that point on, Dad kind of adopted the philosophy "Simpler is better". Many people use their seats and legs to cue for a turn but with beginning riders or poor riders, that can cause more problems. Therefore, we use the reins to control the forequarters and the legs to control the hindquarters. The only time that I use leg cues is to ask for forward movement, sidepasses, lead changes, or if I want them to pivot on their front end. I use reins for everything else.


The woman that I trained horses for complained like hell when she got on and COULD NOT understand how to make a horse move off the leg. (She was extremely green but thought she was as good a rider as any cowboy)
Anyway, the third horse she asked me to train "without the leg stuff"... "can't you just make him neck trained" (Which by that she wanted him to know how to neck rein)
...she was a quack... I like buttons. I like control.


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## BackInTheSaddleAgain

This is what I have always done... especially on barrels. Other than that, it's reins for the front, legs for the back.


wild_spot said:


> But in gameing or rollcks/haunch turns* I use my outside leg to get him to cut his shoulder over.*


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## PaintHorseMares

All of stock type horses I've owned/ridden around here have always been trained to move the hind quarters off/away from inside leg for sharper turns.


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## KTSpeedhorse

To ask for the correct lead I use inside rein and outside leg, you may have to use your inside leg to keep the horse from dropping a shoulder.


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## RedRoan

I use the outside leg to turn him over with his shoulder. I use the inside leg to turn his rump around when at a stand still.


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## Midwest Paint

Well, I am glad to see this has turned out to be a very good and viable question! Keep the feedback coming.. This is interesting!


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## wild_spot

See, I would be inclined to think that on a sharp turn, using the inside leg to move the hindquarters around would give you a higher chance of that butt swinging out and ruining the turn... As well as turning off the forhand instead of the back hand... If you get what i'm saying. 

In a sharper turn, you (by that I mean me, lol) want the horses weight back on their haunches so they can dig in and get that front around quickly. So I would use my weight to rock the horse back on his haunches and then my outside leg to swing that front shoulder around... 

I'm inclined to think that using the inside leg on the hind in a tight turn could go so far as to disengage the hindquarter, blowing out the turn and resulting in a much slower exit from the turn.


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## wild_spot

Oops, forgot half of what I wanted to say, lol.

In regards to the 'simpler is better' idea, and the fact that many greenies or potential buyers may notbe aware or how to ride off leg and seat...

My horses do both. Firstly, I don't use my seat and legs in isolation, unless i'm bridleless. I always supplement with a neck rein or suporting rein. Also, my horses do both. On the trail, they go along on a loose rein, neck reinnig, where I point them and my legs don't touch them. I only bring my legs into play if the string out like a noodle or are evading. I really only bring the leg into play when i'm asking for more, I.e. a lifted belly to engage the hind, the more collected turns and stops I need for shows, etc. So when my horses are ridden by begginers they handle it fine.


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## Vidaloco

I was told it was to be like a pair of scissors for sharp turns outside front inside back so the front is moving left and the rear is moving right. Otherwise I use outside leg for simple directions, so the horse is moving away from pressure. When I first started riding I did just the opposite. I was told it was wrong so I switched. Vida was very confused for awhile :shock:
Now I have a headache :lol:
If I want just her butt to move over I rein to the butt, leg back in the opposite direction I want the butt to go. If I want her front to move over I rein to the shoulder, leg to the front again in the opposite direction. 
Is that right? I sure hope no one who knows how to ride ever has to ride my horse :lol:


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## KTSpeedhorse

On a tight turn I use inside rein, inside leg towards the shoulder and outside leg towards the hind. I guess it would be just like the sicissor action : ) I don't want the hind to swing out either but on a tight turn you want to make sure that the shoulder does not drop.


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## wild_spot

Sounds right to me, Vida :] I'm the same, for moving butt or shoulder to me it is always moving off the pressure. So outside leg to the back to move a hind, and outside leg to the fore to move a shoulder.

I've never heard that scissors analgoy. That may work for barrels/other events, but would be a big problem for me in mounted games. In mounted games, often you need to turn around a barrel at the end while picking something up off it, so the horse needs to keep is body straight and his hind following shoulder following nose. If the front was turning right around the barrel and the hind was moving left, it would carry me too far frm the barrel to pick up the object. That kind of turn is BIG BAD in mounted games lol, as picking objects up is the main skill, and done very fast. So a lot of inside rein/outside neck rein/outside leg is used in mounted games to keep the ribs and hind in line with the front, allowing the rider to be close enough to do the job.


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## onetoomany

To me it all breaks down to moving away from pressure (at least the way I go about thing). When doing a circle I use my outside leg to hold the hips in and to push the horse over. This is the most simple start and usually how I like to teach younger horses to start moving off leg. Farther down the road I'll introduce my inside leg to push the ribs out to create more bend. My own personal mare goes almost entirely off leg and seat (when she wants to) but if I were to be training for someone else, it would depend on the level of the person riding. Me personally though, I like a horse that is light off leg.


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## Vidaloco

wild_spot said:


> Sounds right to me, Vida :] I'm the same, for moving butt or shoulder to me it is always moving off the pressure. So outside leg to the back to move a hind, and outside leg to the fore to move a shoulder.
> 
> I've never heard that scissors analgoy. That may work for barrels/other events, but would be a big problem for me in mounted games.


Funny you should say that. The person who taught it to me teaches and competes in cowboy mounted shooting :lol:


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## wild_spot

Very different events though! :]

A brumby I did a season of MG on turned like that, and there were numerous races I had to sit our of because of it, 3 mug being the main one. (and it's one of my favourites, ****! lol)

Actually now I think about it, if the butt is moving the oppostie way to the shoulders, wouldn't that be blowing out? Maybe i'm seeing it in my head a bit more extreme than you mean, lol.


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## WesternPleasure27

It depends on what I'm doing. Since I ride both game and pleasure horses it's very important for me to have a horse that moves off my legs and seat and doesn't require much rein aids.

If I want just a simple turn, I cue with the outside leg at or slightly behind the girth- depends on the horse.
If I'm pivoting, I cue with the outside leg at the girth and shift my weight back.
If I want a circle, I cue for bend with the inside leg at the girth, and control the hip with my outside leg behind or at the girth depending on what's going on with the horses body.
For side passes, legs yields, lead changes, ect I cue with the outside leg (at the girth for side passing and leg yielding...behind for leads).
For barrels, I hold the arc of the turn (and hold up the shoulder) with my inside leg at the girth, and my outside leg behind the girth to keep the hindquarter from swinging out.

The horse needs to move AWAY from my leg, not into it. When you apply an inside leg at the girth on a circle lets say, you are asking the rib cage to move away from your leg and create bend while using the outside leg to keep the hind tipped in forming the arc of the circle. In both instances the horse is moving certain body parts AWAY from the leg. This distinction is why it's so important for a horse to move its hips, shoulder, and rib cage independently when you apply a leg in certain places- behind the cinch, at the cinch, and slightly behind respectively.


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## SaddleUp158

I use both. Most of the horses I ride are youngsters so I have to do a bit more finessing while fixing. I will ask for the turn with the outside leg, but have the inside leg "on" to keep the horse from falling in and to bend around the inside leg. Makes the turn smoother and not so abrupt.


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## Velvetgrace

When you neck rein, you lay the rein over the right side of the neck to cue the horse to go left. This I follow with the cue of the right leg to turn left. and vice versa.


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## 7Ponies

I said inside leg, but actually I use my seat and reins first when I cue for a turn. I find myself dropping my hip to the side I want to turn and asking for the horse to turn his head with rein pressure, then I apply my leg.

My outside leg is used to either maneuver the shoulder or hip, depending on what kind of turn I'm doing.

When you sit and think about it, it seems so technical. When I'm actually riding, I just do it


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