# Is pointing out the toe too bad?



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Now let me say yes, they should be parallel with the side of the horse. :wink: However I'm facing the physical issue here. While I can keep right one parallel, keeping left one is painful (due to the old (pretty bad) injury). I started wearing one of those fixing bandages (which somewhat improved situation), still it's not 100%. So... Will it affect the correct riding too bad? And at the shows will it bring scores down?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Kitten, 

Whether or not it's bad depends on how it affects the rest of your lower leg position. The reason that "toes out" is considered a flaw is that it usually forces you to ride on the back of you calf, rather than the flat of your calf, and that interferes with applying the aids correctly.

So if the rest of your position is correct and effective, it shouldn't be a problem. If your leg on that side is affected by the toe position, ehhhhh, then it might be a problem.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Thank you, maura! Yes, I see what you are saying. I do try to keep the calf in correct position (although it takes some effort). It's mostly from ankle and down, which deviates away from the side. Unfortunately as long as I put it in correct position I have a feeling I don't have any support there at all. :?


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

agreed. my left toe turns out more than my right one bc of numerous knee injuries and so on. as long as your leg is correct, the toe is less of a focus. i know i wouldn't ever place well in an eq class, but my physical conformation prohibits me from being able to have my feet parallel to my horse. even when standing i toe out.

the best way to find the "natural" angle for your feet is stand with your legs about shoulder width apart. close your eyes and point your feet where standing is most comfortable and it FEELS to YOU as if your feet ar pointing pretty much straight ahead. then open your eyes and see where your feet are ACTUALLY pointing. this is where your feet should be when riding. when i do this exercise my right foot is only at a slight angle outward while my left one is almost 45 degrees out.
hope that helps!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

CJ82Sky said:


> agreed. my left toe turns out more than my right one bc of numerous knee injuries and so on. as long as your leg is correct, the toe is less of a focus. i know i wouldn't ever place well in an eq class, but my physical conformation prohibits me from being able to have my feet parallel to my horse. even when standing i toe out.
> 
> the best way to find the "natural" angle for your feet is stand with your legs about shoulder width apart. close your eyes and point your feet where standing is most comfortable and it FEELS to YOU as if your feet ar pointing pretty much straight ahead. then open your eyes and see where your feet are ACTUALLY pointing. this is where your feet should be when riding. when i do this exercise my right foot is only at a slight angle outward while my left one is almost 45 degrees out.
> hope that helps!


Thanks, Sky, that's very helpful! 

And while I feel very sorry for your leg, at least I'm not alone with this problem.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

CJ82Sky said:


> agreed. my left toe turns out more than my right one bc of numerous knee injuries and so on. as long as your leg is correct, the toe is less of a focus. i know i wouldn't ever place well in an eq class, but my physical conformation prohibits me from being able to have my feet parallel to my horse. even when standing i toe out.
> 
> the best way to find the "natural" angle for your feet is stand with your legs about shoulder width apart. close your eyes and point your feet where standing is most comfortable and it FEELS to YOU as if your feet ar pointing pretty much straight ahead. then open your eyes and see where your feet are ACTUALLY pointing. this is where your feet should be when riding. when i do this exercise my right foot is only at a slight angle outward while my left one is almost 45 degrees out.
> hope that helps!


Great post CJ! This^^^


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Good Lord, with my conformation and injuries, I cannot keep my toes pointed forwards. I feel a twinge of jealousy watching my friend ride - you could stick flashlights on her toes and she could make great headlights for the horse. 
Glad to know I am not the only one!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Also, I wanted to bookmark this for later - someone said something quite profound on another forum I'm on, but I can't remember what it was, exactly..,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> Good Lord, with my conformation and injuries, I cannot keep my toes pointed forwards. I feel a twinge of jealousy watching my friend ride - you could stick flashlights on her toes and she could make great headlights for the horse.
> Glad to know I am not the only one!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol, JDI! You are definitely not alone!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

for dressage your toes should point forward, but in an a/p saddle or any kind of jumping saddle they should point out a little bit [up to 45degrees] the reason is, you want to use the good part of your calf on the horse - not the back, but the inside. it also depends on your conformation what angle your foot is at. personally, i walk with my feet very straight forward, but if i try to ride like that i have very little leg that actually touches the horse. if i turn my toes out slightly my whole leg touches the horse. its really strange to me that so many people think your toes *have* to point forward, because in lessons i have never heard that.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

The only thing that could become complicated in the situation is using spurs. With a foot that points out, the heel will be against the horse's sides. That will keep the spur engaged even when not wanted. Simply use a dressage whip to keep your horse respectful of a light leg so that you never have to wear spurs.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

It was explained to me that closing the toes, closes the knee, which closes the hip. So if you can ride with toes forward it produces a better seat.....


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

gypsygirl said:


> for dressage your toes should point forward, but in an a/p saddle or any kind of jumping saddle they should point out a little bit [up to 45degrees] the reason is, you want to use the good part of your calf on the horse - not the back, but the inside. it also depends on your conformation what angle your foot is at. personally, i walk with my feet very straight forward, but if i try to ride like that i have very little leg that actually touches the horse. if i turn my toes out slightly my whole leg touches the horse. its really strange to me that so many people think your toes *have* to point forward, because in lessons i have never heard that.


That's interesting. I actually never tried to "measure" how much leg touches the horse depending on angle (and yes, I was talking about dressage). 

As for pointing forward looks like everyone I came across saying you have to keep them straight. I never really did any research on it. May be it's time to do some.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> The only thing that could become complicated in the situation is using spurs. With a foot that points out, the heel will be against the horse's sides. That will keep the spur engaged even when not wanted. Simply use a dressage whip to keep your horse respectful of a light leg so that you never have to wear spurs.


Thanks, Allison! 

Spurs unlikely ever will be on my list. I'm too afraid to jab the horse because of inexperience with them.  And yes, I do carry dresssage whip when I ride.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

spirithorse8 said:


> It was explained to me that closing the toes, closes the knee, which closes the hip. So if you can ride with toes forward it produces a better seat.....


I think gypsy brought a good point about the human confirmation. I mean if you close the toe how much it'll change the position and how much calf touches the horse? Hmmmmm..... 

Folks, I gonna try different positions today to see how it works!


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

Yes our confirmation has a lot to do with our toe position. However, I think that physical injuries are the prevelant problem for not getting the toes foreward. When I teach I find that I have to show my clients that their ankles are rigid rather than supple and fluid. A locked ankle will cause alot of problems with the toes and with contact by the calf. Once one learns, and we have to learn, to unlock the ankle the toes seem to gradually come more forward.
Just my experiences...............


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A lot depends on the horse and rider. Toes forward is good...all other things being equal. But with my 53 year old legs, toes forward = knees digging into the horse while my tense, rigid leg demolishes my seat.

If I put my toes full forward, no judge would ever notice it. They would be too busy being appalled at my bouncing, my gouging my horse with my knee, and my tense, irritated horse being angry at his incompetent rider.

Of course, if I competed at my best, the judges would still spew their drinks across the field and scream, "Good Lord! Who is that clown and what is he doing to his horse!?!" - so I'll be content with adjusting my riding to make my horse relaxed. And that means a relaxed leg, which in turn means my toes will point out some (about 30-40 deg, depending on which foot).

Edit to add: When I was in my teens, I took some lessons. IIRC, "Toes Forward" seemed to be the Holy Grail of riding a horse. But all it does for me is make me bounce a lot...


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

You mean there are people out there who really can keep their toes _forward_? I don't think I have enough torque in my hip keep my whole lower body in the right position whilst pointing my toes at his ears. I always thought it was "towards" his ears.

I ride like BSMS, relaxed leg, which means my toes will come out a bit. But I think as long as your goal isn't dressage at the Olympics, I'm not sure it's going to be that big of a deal.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

I personally can't ride with my toes forward. It messes up my entire lower body. I could either force my toes forward (I would have to FORCE; my body doesn't allow toes forward to be a natural position) and have a terrible, tense lower body, or toes outward and a decent lower body. I don't due what's _right_; I do what works. :wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

spirithorse8 said:


> When I teach I find that I have to show my clients that their ankles are rigid rather than supple and fluid. A locked ankle will cause alot of problems with the toes and with contact by the calf. Once one learns, and we have to learn, to unlock the ankle the toes seem to gradually come more forward.


It's not really locked. It's hard to explain, but if I point forward I feel like I have nothing below the ankle. Weird feeling.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> If I put my toes full forward, no judge would ever notice it. They would be too busy being appalled at my bouncing, my gouging my horse with my knee, and my tense, irritated horse being angry at his incompetent rider.


bsms, you made me laugh! :lol: But yes, its very true.


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> It's not really locked. It's hard to explain, but if I point forward I feel like I have nothing below the ankle. Weird feeling.


 
I think I understand what you are saying.
That is because the releasing of the ankle makes you feel like you are losing the stirrup......maybe.
Also, I think most riders tend to use the ankle and foot to keep the foot in the stirrup.....I was taught and teach that by pressing downward with the calf muscle into a flat foot, the foot will remain in the stirrup, and I will have a supple ankle with toes forward....


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Discipline note -

In any of the jumping disciplines, your toe is supposed to be out anywhere from 15 to 45 degrees depending on your conformation, to facilitate your lower leg being correctly wrapped around the horse, and with enough grip to keep your position secure. You also want your weight deeply in your heel for security as well, though not so deep you lock your ankle (common fault, especially among novices who have recently worked very hard at heels down!)

In dressage (which kitten is asking about) and in some cases, western, where you're riding all gaits in full seat, first, you have to release some of the weight in the heel to free up that ankle joint, and you ride with the toe parellel to the horse's side because you don't want the same snug, active grip in your lower leg that you do in the jumping disciplines. To ride in a dressage full seat, all the joints of your leg have to have their full shock absorption potential, and your leg is draped, wet noodle like, around the horse's barrel, rather than wrapped snugly, like in forward seat. 

All of this to say that there are differences in position in the disciplines, and what's correct for one might not be correct for another.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

maura, your description is great as always (and yes, I was talking about dressage).


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

maura said:


> Discipline note -
> 
> In any of the jumping disciplines, your toe is supposed to be out anywhere from 15 to 45 degrees depending on your confirmation, to facilitate your lower leg being correctly wrapped around the horse, and with enough grip to keep your position secure. You also want your weight deeply in your heel for security as well, though not so deep you lock your ankle (common fault, especially among novices who have recently worked very hard at heels down!)
> 
> ...


My jumping self definitely tries to assert itself over my wannabe dressage queen self 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Kitten,

I did not take the time to read all of this thread, so forgive me if I duplicat other's thoughts.
It kind of sounds like your foot is rotating outward from the knee. Do you , by chance, have flat feet? Have you ever had custom fitted orthotics made?
Do you pronate when you walk? All of these are associated with having the lower leg offset from the knee (Not going straight downward)

You many not be able to change that angle as it's kind of hard wired into the bone. But, there is one thing you can do to help "straighten" out the line from hip to foot:

This is an exersize that helps a lot for people with knee problems related to pronateing. Stand nice and straight , feet parallet facing forwards as much as you can without being really forced. stand up tall, engagne your lower pelvic floor muscles, gently tuck in tummy , lift ribe cage but dont' crimp shoulders up. Roll shoulders back a bit (this is the position in Yoga called "Tall Mountain")

Now, tighten your buttock muscles as tight as you can without engaging any other muscles. Just squeeze a lemon between them hams! Hold it, hold it.
You should actually feel your femur roll outward. It will put a little torque on your knee outward. Do this excersize when you do dishes, stand in the check outline at grocery, anywhere you can and hold for count of 10, do 10 times a day. You will find your knees align just a wee bit better.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

tinyliny said:


> Kitten,
> 
> I did not take the time to read all of this thread, so forgive me if I duplicat other's thoughts.
> It kind of sounds like your foot is rotating outward from the knee. Do you , by chance, have flat feet? Have you ever had custom fitted orthotics made?
> ...


Thank you, tiny!


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## EventingDeva (May 21, 2011)

It was explained to me that the toe should be forward, causing you to ride on your inner calf, creating equal contact with the saddle through your calves and thighs. I've also been told that Dressage should be ridden primarily through the seat, and that the seat should contol the rythm, tempo, etc., and that the leg is just there to give aids to the horse. When I ride with my toe forward I find also that when I post my knee and lower leg will drop down and back, enabling me to have a very balenced standing postion in the saddle instead of my lower legs being locked and causing me to rotate around my knee. I find that when I toe out my lower body is out of alienment and it messes with my ability to correctly use me seat. Now I do have problems with this as well, my right toe used to be almost perpendicular to my calf, but now after months of working on it, my muscle memory is almost capible of having a forward toe while still having my body relaxed. I believe that the reason why it hurts to hold your feet like this and why it makes us tense up (unless you've had an injury or it hurts you bones or whatever, then its more than just not being comfortable) is because your muscles are not used to working in that position and you then have your whole body fighting for something more comfortable.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i just remembered a long article written by Deb Bennet, (the horse anatomist who is well known for her articles on horse conformation) on the difference between the male and female human pelvis. She said that due to pelvic shape for females, it is harder for us to have that straight line from hip to knee to ankle with toes forward, as men do much easier. AND, since riding form has been taught for hundreds of years in a way that conforms with the MALE shape, it meants that we females have to struggle against our shape, while for men their pelvis allows them to fall into the position easier.
Not to say that there isn't a good reason for one to try to be as parallet to the horse as possible. Just to be realistic.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

tinyliny said:


> i just remembered a long article written by Deb Bennet, (the horse anatomist who is well known for her articles on horse conformation) on the difference between the male and female human pelvis. She said that due to pelvic shape for females, it is harder for us to have that straight line from hip to knee to ankle with toes forward, as men do much easier. AND, since riding form has been taught for hundreds of years in a way that conforms with the MALE shape, it meants that we females have to struggle against our shape, while for men their pelvis allows them to fall into the position easier.


Loved it! I think from now on it'll be my _*official *_reason to point out the toes! Yes, just that, because I'm a WOMAN! :lol:


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## spirithorse8 (Jun 30, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Loved it! I think from now on it'll be my _*official *_reason to point out the toes! Yes, just that, because I'm a WOMAN! :lol:


I disagree with this perspective, simply because my women clients can put their toes forward much easier than men.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

spirithorse8 said:


> I disagree with this perspective, simply because my women clients can put their toes forward much easier than men.


You have wrong men in your class, spirit! :lol:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I agree with SH8!

How many boys can do splits, compared to girls? How many women have lots of flexibility in their hips compared to men?

The ideal leg/hip shape for riding a horse would be an inverted U. Most men I know - and certainly me - are an "A". That tightness in the hips makes it very hard to settle into the saddle. My wife, daughters and daughter-in-law all settled into a saddle pretty much the first time. It has taken me years for my hips to loosen enough, and even then I need 10-15 minutes of easy riding before I am comfortable with trotting/canter.

And don't get me started on western saddles that rise sharply from the cantle forward...those were NOT designed by or for men! In fact, they have to be designed by women who have had an ugly divorce or two behind them...:shock:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

For reference:

Custom English Dressage Saddles - Schleese Saddlery Service - Schleese SaddleFit 4 Life

http://www.equinestudies.org/whos_built_best_2008/whos_built_best_2008_pdf1.pdf

I think it is a crock! There is more to a man's anatomy than bone...so to speak. :wink:


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> And don't get me started on western saddles that rise sharply from the cantle forward...those were NOT designed by or for men!


Bahahahahahahah.... bsms, you definitely don't qualify as a "true cowboy" then! :rofl:


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