# Another One of Those Darned Bit Questions



## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

So I've been riding a horse for another gal and doing some training on her. Also have my 9 year old appy and my wife's OTTB. I'm limited on bit experience and funds. I've used a plain ring snaffle on both my appy and the TB, a twisted wire ring snaffle on the appy, and a tom thumb and a curb on all three. The curbs I have are all the OLD school aluminum ones with solid shanks (they were my dad's and he hasn't ridden in well over 20 years, probably closer to 30). 

Anyhow, we went to a trail ride a few weeks ago and I rode my appy on Saturday and the wife's horse on Sun since she had to work. Folks that put those on suggested heavier (as in sheer weight) bits than the stuff we've got. Both of us currently use TT's on our horses, and I've been using a curb on the mare I'm training on. 

What the heck would you folks suggest for a HEAVIER bit? I tend to like a broken bit over solid for our two, they work pretty well with them. The TB does still need to be plow reigned at times, my app tosses his head a LOT more with the solid bit. 

Suggestions?


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

A true TT (American version) has a straight, short shank and is relatively unbalanced. I would avoid it. I would also avoid the twisted wire snaffle. Aluminum bits are usually cheap bits that are give aways on cheap bridles. There were some made that were fancy but horses usually don't like the taste of aluminum and it tends to dry out their mouths.

The best all around curb bit I've ever used for a Western horse is one with a Billy Allen mouth piece made in sweet iron. The Billy Allen has a barrel in the center that limits the movement of the mouth piece while allowing the shanks to move independently of each other. This is mine:









If you need (or like to use) a simple snaffle, then, again, I would use one made of sweet iron.


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

yeah.... i don't like plain snaffles for very many horses at all. my boss in NY had ALL of us use them ALL the time, and haven't been a big fan for older horses since then. i'd love to find what you've got there, but danged if it ain't hard to find good places with bits around here. have to try online....


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Just check on eBay or google Billy Allen Bits. There are plenty at all different prices. Mine is a hand made Greg Darnell that I've used for ~a dozen years or more.


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## FHF (Jul 11, 2010)

Are these horses only being used for trail?


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## FHF (Jul 11, 2010)

I feel your pain. I really love the design and options of the Cradle bridle/bit but I can't afford to pay 150 dollars for a bit. Regardless of how mulitasking it is.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

The Cradle set up is really just another in the long line of gimmick bits.


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

FHF said:


> Are these horses only being used for trail?


right now, pretty much. the TB, who knows what all else she might do with him. and then, there's my horse. i'd love to do a LOT more, however due to other physical issues, he may never amount to a whole lot... the trainee, yeah, i doubt she'll ever do more than trails...


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

It sounds more like a reinning trainning problem than a bit problem. If you have to plow rein then that horse has not been properly trained in reinning. Plow reinning especially with a snaffel will harden a horses mouth. If your horses mouth is soft even a low curb should do the trick. Sever bits are only needed if the horse is hard to manage and should be only used by very experienced riders.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Sorry to disagree Eileen, but snaffles are designed for plow or direct reining and the horse's mouth will only get hard if the hands running the bit make it that way.

I don't particularly like broken mouth curbs unless they have something to limit the nutcracker motion of the mouth like Iride's bit. Funny that yours is made by Greg Darnell, I have 2 show bits that were handmade by him and given to my Dad back in the day before he was really famous.

This is almost identical to the type of bit that I use on all my horses after they get the idea behind neck reining and I have yet to find a horse that didn't like it. The port is high enough for tongue relief but not so high that it interferes with even a low palate when the bit is engaged. And, because it is swivel shanked, it does allow for one reined correction where your aluminum bits do not.
http://www.horse.com/item/pinchless-low-port-reining-bit/WBE07/
And don't let the price fool you, it is a good quality bit.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

It's ok that you do not agree with me but I come from back in the day and have been ridding for over 50 years and it is the tight hands on a sever bit that toughens the mouth but wether ridding english phellem full bridle or western head stall I always found with my horses a med to low port med shank worked best but it really depends on the horse. I don't think I made myself quite clear in my other post sorry about that.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

But I am still adament about not plow reinning a western horse to me it shows lack of trainning with reins for both horse and rider.


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

Eileen said:


> But I am still adament about not plow reinning a western horse to me it shows lack of trainning with reins for both horse and rider.


after a quick refresh of my original post, i'm going to call a bit of bull on this one... the TB my wife rides is about as "western" as we can get him. he semi neck reigns, but not well. i haven't ridden him in a considerable amount of time because he's not MINE. i was asked to get him to the point that the wife CAN ride him. for the most part, thus, my job is done. whatever she wishes to do with him is fine by me, i might question what she does but that's not my call.

he is NOT a good candidate for a regular curb because he doesn't neck reign well. the TT has been the best compromise i could come up with so far. it still has enough flex to steer while having more "whoah" than a snaffle. however, he is in need of something different, however i do need to ride him a bit to come up with a solution to that problem.

move forward a month from the original post. the gray mare went home a month ago, i gave the owner one of those old curbs and need to call and see how the horse is doing.

and at the first of the month i bought another horse, he's been posted in a couple of places on here. when i first rode him, the guy put a long shanked TT on him and it worked ok (lots of head tossing, but he hadn't been ridden in over a year). brought him home, a hack isn't much good, but the TT was ok. had enough funds left over and ordered a cavalry shank billy allen mouthpiece (actually pretty similar to what was posted here).

it worked pretty well, and considering the situation, i've had about the softest hands on this horse with that particular bit than i've had with any horse. but i'm also still trying to figure out all his quirks. he wasn't named "twitch" for nothing. he doesn't toss his head near as much now, though, but i think that's more due to having some hours on him.

i have yet to try the bit on anybody else yet. i really should throw the bridle in and go ride the mare once or twice with it and see how SHE does. that'll be a test, but if it works well, i'll have to tell owner to try one out.

the only odd thing that i find that bit has very LITTLE flex to it. more like a quite low port bit. twitch responds well to it, however he seems to think that he can pick up a faster gait rather frequently. we're working on that, though...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Spence, you don't have to justify yourself. I'm sure everybody here knows some people who ride their horses western all their life and never spend a moment neck reining. Besides, that particular person probably isn't the best person to be throwing out judgement. Nothing I have seen in a post has impressed me at all yet . I'm still not entirely sure where she got the "a low port curb is milder than a snaffle" idea.

As for my remark about broken mouth shanks, that is just my personal preferance talking. I know lots of people get along great with them, I have just never liked how they felt. You should find what works for you and your horses, nobody else's opinion really matters.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I really don't care what you think of me maybe because you think you know better, I have seen horse's mouth all bloody from improper use and fit of bits.
A problem I never had with a low to med port and neither did any of my other friends. I had two friends that used snaffels with western one had english trainning and knew how to properly use it the other put her horse through so much pain he hated her even trying to put it in his mouth. one thing I'm sure of each horse, rider and use is different that's why there are so many different bits. It's a matter of personal choice there are no sure answer one size fits all with bits. Now to lighten it up a bit, I had a friend who wanted me to try a hack on my horse prince so I said I'd try (I had been trying different bits to see what he worked with best). Well we got it on him, all adjusted etc. went on the trail and I got to thinking gee I'm holding the reins allfully tight he should have passed out by now so I left go of the reings and his head fell to the ground. I was holding up his head for him.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Eileen, answer this for me. What is a snaffle?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It's not about what I do or don't think about you. It's simple mechanics. A snaffle bit has a 1:1 ratio, meaning that a horse feels 1 pound in their mouth for every 1 pound applied to the reins. A curb bit changes the ratio and it varies from bit to bit depending on the length of the shank and the length of the purchase. A curb bit with a 4 inch shank and a 1 inch purchase will give a pressure ratio of 4:1, for every pound you apply, the horse feels 4. That is why shanked bits are designed to be ridden on a loose rein, to keep the horse's mouth from getting hard to the extra pressure.

Some horses don't like snaffles because of the broken mouth and singular bar pressure (no pressure on the curb and poll like you get with a shanked bit), but just because a horse doesn't like it or a rider doesn't know how to use it, that doesn't make it a harsh bit. Simply because of the pressure ratio, a snaffle bit is the mildest bit out there. Of course there are harsher options like twisted but just a regular simple snaffle is as mild as bits come.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Darn, Smrobs! We posted at the same time. I had a feeling that Eileen thought a snaffle was a broken bit, so I asked her to explain it to me. You gave her the answer. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I know exactly what a snaffle is You don't know me so don't judge me. To assume I am ignorant when you know nothing about me shows your ignorance


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

To say that a snaffle is a harsh bit is pretty ignorant, and shows that you don't understand the mechanics of how they work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

Eileen said:


> I know exactly what a snaffle is You don't know me so don't judge me. To assume I am ignorant when you know nothing about me shows your ignorance


weeeeeell, you're not exactly acting like you know what one is. being as they're primarily, in the western world, used on green horses and most horses graduate to a curb of some sort... 

when i was up north and was FORCED to ride all the time, two handed, in a snaffle, normal neck reigning, and nothing but one reign stops. if it wasn't for the fact that the boss lady knew what she was doing and why she had us ride like that, i'd call her nuts. however that place is where i got most of my horse know how. just took a LONG time to get back to knowing how to ride "normally." 

hell, the current problem horse, our TB, is the fact that you ride with a 4" shanked TT and it doesn't matter who's riding, but there ALWAYS has to be a fairly hefty amount of pressure on his mouth. i have two goals for that horse: get him so he can be ridden with a looser reign, and have him drop his head some (not like WP dragging dirt). he usually carries that head straight up in the air, and that may again have something to do with the bit.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Ok I've been picking on you. I re read what I wrote and no wonder you came to the conclusion you did.
I did not mean the way it came out. A SNAFFEL IS NOT necessarily any harsher bit then any other A curb low port with long shank would be more harsh then the average snaffle. There are harsh bits of all kinds from curb to bosel. and some of the harshest are some of the Mexican curbs I have seen used out here. It's a matter of choice between horse and rider. I didn't mean a particular bit was harsh but the way an untrained rider will use a bit can make any bit harsh. I just didn't complete my thought when I wrote it. After reading my statement I would have thought me stupid also. I apologize to all.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

A bit is only as harsh as the hands on the other side if the reins. I can make a snaffle just as harsh as I can my Cathedral port bit. It comes down to really how they are used and by whom.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Exactly. I want your opinion on something. With all my other horses and ones I trained I never really had to use a curb chain nor a leather strap under the chin. In my hayday chains were used on studs and leather on mares. I was informed in the last couple of months that all horses should use chains. I've ridden with full bridle all leather, phellem bit double reins and never used chain, and one ear with no strap and never really saw the point in it. strap or no strap never saw a difference. On Toby we use no strap. Just what is the reason for putting one on a well trained horse?


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Did this question make any sense? I need a vacation.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

There are several reasons to use a curb strap. One is keeps the bit in place. Next it makes the bit work more efficiently. You may not see the difference but the more subtle your cues get the more the strap will come into play. Also you may not be seeing a difference b/c it is not adjusted correctly. Most people wither put them on too tight or too loose.

I have and use both leather curb straps and single and double chain straps. Just depends on the bit and the horse. Te is so sensitive I use a leather one on him. For the most part I like the double chain straps with leather ends.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Just what should the adjustment be? When I did use it I had it just touching but not binding nor hanging loose.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I normally like to be able to get 2 fingers between the curb strap and the horses chin.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Thank you I'll give it a try and see if Toby works even better with it. 
I do need to get out more. I'm just getting back in to working with horses. I have been away to long, I stopped when my eldest daughter was killed in a car crash 20 years ago. She was my main ridding partner and was learning barrel racing. I had taughter her to ride as soon as she could sit a horse with me. So much has changed over the years it's hard to catch up. Now I have my 14 year old granddaughter/daughter to teach and can use any advice that's not so out of date.


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