# Teaching a new rider to post the trot



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Hi guys.

Been a while since I've been on here. I have been training, starting colts, and giving lots of lessons and feel as though it has been a wonderful improvement on my life, and I know my own skills in communication are improving as well.

I recently took on a young girl who rides english. She is thirteen, and is riding an older horse who is quite lazy. I have two problems I might like some advice with.

1) She is very stuck on the posting trot. She is starting to get it more, but often she finds herself falling out of it or is unable to keep up. I have been trying to break her of her "chair seat" which is not helping the problem. Essentially, while we are working and making improvement, I would like to know how you guys would describe a "posting trot" to a young rider who is learning. I just wonder if my description isn't quite "clicking", and would like to hear some other words - Sometimes just a different description does wonders!

2) She is riding the old gelding but he is definitely a soured little school horse. He is very well trained but has been ridden by kids for so long, he will go wherever he wants, won't stay in the trot all the time, and is hard on the leg. I rode him and had to really make him stay where he was supposed to go. She rode my mare Selena during our first lesson too, and she liked her, but was distressed by the fact that, I quote, "where I look, she goes". To me this is a good thing, as she is very responsive and will always be ridden and tuned up by me to do so. She is very slow and gentle with kids. I have not pushed the matter of her switching horses because her parents really want her on the other gelding, but I think it is making it harder for her to learn because she is too focused on steering or kicking him forward all the time and has a hard time doing that as well as learning new things.

I have had her on the lunge line with this horse as well and have run into similar problems. I can keep him going for her, but as soon as she comes off the lead line it's all back to square one again.

As of right now I intend to just start her out on the lunge line and get her really confident until she can balance and feel secure outside of it, but any other suggestions would be welcome as well....Thank you.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A lot of new riders try to post/rise by pushing themselves up from their stirrups which then destabilizes their legs - its a lot easier if you tell them to go up from their knees as in 'kneel up and sit down'. Have her do it at the walk first
If you're watching her you can also tell her 'up/down' in time with the diagonal stride - might help her to feel the rhythm for herself.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I do the "up, down" thing, I think she gets distracted by it actually. :/

I have not described it using knees though. Will see if that helps.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Does the saddle fit her?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the chair seat can be due to too long stirrup, or too big saddle, or saddle doesn't fit the horse, or other factors. I would suggest, if she is pretty new, to try and get her to only post for short periods, then sit, then post, then sit , etc. she'll become a better rider if she can sit the trot, too.

as for the stubborn horse making it hard, well, that's all part of learning. she'll soon learn how to deal with a difficult horse, and be the better rider for it. dont' try to smooth the way totally for her. let her bump around, even fall off, if that's what it takes. just keep it light and with the attitude that such bumpiness and difficulties come with the territory.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I would say more time on the lunge, even though I know it gets boring. Since you have a problem with the horse and a problem with the rider, I would take the horse problem out of the equation here and focus on the rider.

This will sound a little silly, but if she's getting distracted by the verbal up/down, one thing I have done is use washable paints and paint the horse's shoulders different colors so you help get their attention on the outside shoulder when they are still learning to feel the diagonal rhythm. You run the risk of teaching them to look down because they get focused on the shoulder, but it might help if she's on the brink of getting it and just needs a visual cue for a lesson or two. 

Does your mare have more impulsion than the gelding? We have a sweet old draft cross lesson mare who is the proverbial "riding a sofa" horse, but because she's so smooth, a rider learning to trot gets no help from this mare because she has so little lift. She's great for teaching people to sit the trot in their early rides, but really frustrating for posting.

If your mare is on the lunge to take away the nervousness about steering, maybe that would help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

If you can, put her back on the lunge in a two-point to practice her position and learn balance in the walk and trot. Let her do this with hands, without hands, one hand, etc. Leaning on the neck is ok at first and since she is on a lunge she doesn't need reins. Learning and practicing the two point is helpful for posting. Some riders first learn to post better from the two point by going down/up, down/up, rather than up/down, up/down.


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## hollysjubilee (Nov 2, 2012)

I had one student who had the hardest time with rhythm. Even though she was a musician (violin) she just couldn't feel the rhythm and even if she got a few posts, she wasn't able to maintain it. It took her weeks to be able to just post for 3 bounces.

Position is so important and allowing the horse to move her pelvis up and forward. Many times, people think that posting is an up and down movement, but it's really a forward/back movement coming off the saddle just enough to miss the bumps. A horse with more flexion/bounce will push her out of the saddle more violently, but your lazy guy might not have that kind of movement, so as long as she knows to *fix her lower leg so that she can stand at the walk* without feeling as if she's gonna fall, that will help immensely. If she falls forward, her lower leg is too far back; if she falls backward, her lower leg is too far forward. I really focus on a rider being able to balance by fixing that lower leg and letting the weight go down through her heel before I move on to trotting. When she can stand at the walk for 2 steps . . . 3 steps . . . 5 steps . . . 1/4 of the ring . . . 1/2 the ring . . . all the way around the ring . . . and can choose to stand and balance or sit anytime she chooses at the walk, then practice it at the trot: stand two bounces . . . stand 3 bounces, etc . . . until she can choose to stand the trot or sit the trot anytime she wants and can count the number of bounces she stands or sits. The key is in the weight draining through her "center" and down through the lower leg and through the heel . . . and in her ability to keep control of her shoulders and arms. 

You can show her the posting while you stand on the ground. Stand with hands in the rein-holding position and knees bent, shoulders up, eyes forward as if you are sitting on a horse. Now bring your hips up slightly and toward your hands without letting your shoulders or hands move. It's all done in the middle of our bodies. Our knees open and our hips come forward toward our hands, but our shoulders stay still and up, and our eyes stay forward in the direction we are going. Also, while you are demonstrating by standing, you can tell her that your lower leg is fixed on the ground as hers should be in her stirrups. Your knees open and close, but you don't push off your toes or feet to post. You can show her what happens as you stand there and then push off your toes. You will lose balance and fall forward. Your legs aren't swinging back and forth as your hips come forward and back, because if they did, you would fall over either on your face or on your tush.

Now, when she gets really balanced and standing and sitting whenever she chooses at the trot, if the gelding is being lazy, will he move better if she carries a crop? I don't like to rely on crops, but in order to keep him moving for this exercise, it could help. After she has great control of her lower leg and can keep her shoulders and hands quiet, and can be soft through her middle, she should be able to nail him with a good whomp if she feels him slowing down, and if that means sitting a bounce, that's okay, she'll just be changing diagonals.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

When you teach, you have to get on and retrain your school horses frequently to keep them listening. It's also a good idea to ground train them.
I never realized that my horses were always watching me in the middle of the ring as I taught. If my horses wouldn't take the student's cues, I would cue my horse to do the movement. I always carried a whip while I taught. So, your are wrong. You CAN get the horse to work for her, because YOU have to be the herd leader and make him move his feet.
It is vital that new riders learn to sit in ANY saddle, without stirrups and learn to balance FIRST. This teaches them, or anybody, to move with the motion of the horse, and is an important prerequisate to riding the canter. Many new riders can lose their balance at both the trot and the canter because they are not used to the feel of the horse's movements.
THEN, your student needs to be on a horse that can be transitioned down from a trot to a walk easily. I used to teach sitting the trot for 4 strides, and then half halting to the walk, repeat, repeat, repeat. When she becomes comfortable and balanced sitting a slow trot, you can have her count, "1, 2, 1, 2, " OR watching the outside and inside legs, count, "left, right, left, right." 
Next, teach the half seat and balance.
Do you teach stretching during the warmup? This is immensely helpful, too.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

You mentioned the student having a "chair seat'. I would correct that first and have her sitting the trot in the correct position and standing at a walk before going on to posting and I would work the horse on a lung so you can control him


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I would have her on a lead line and pony them out for a good long trail ride with lots and lots of long trots. 

Would probably freshen up the school horse too.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm a backyard rider, but I'd recommend spending time in two point - even at a walk. Use a crop to reinforce the leg aids, assuming the horse won't buck.

I also found the whole "diagonal" thing hard to learn, and spent more time paying attention to it than to my balance, when it was my balance that needed work. Once the balance was down, I could always play with diagonals.


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

hollysjubilee said:


> Many times, people think that posting is an up and down movement, but it's really a forward/back movement coming off the saddle just enough to miss the bumps.


This. 

Once I understood this posting the trot took on a whole new outlook for me, even though I was pretty good at it already. The above perspective helped posting become a much more organic thing.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

This came up at a dinner with friends last night. One of the men recently did a Calvary reenactment ride. He's a rancher. Of the nineteen who started the 145 mile ride, only he and 3 others knew to post. The remaining 15 rode what they considered to be western and had never even tried. 

He tried to ride along the column and coach them. Most did not have the core and thigh strength to do it. A few caught on and though muscle sore, did not develop the saddle sores that the remainder did.

He said he did not worry about diagonals. He tried to get them to feel the rise of the horses' hind legs. With most though, picking a shoulder to concentrate on worked better. He said most had to lean on their arms, too, with horses going on loose rein, of course.

He said, there were many off beat moments, but most of the guys caught on. Five or six had to drop out in the first few days because of saddle sores and their horses ended up pretty sore, too. 5 roughly 30 mile days would be awful hard on a horse unless the rider is fit and can post. They followed old Calvary style of movement, trotting and walking by turns.

And I should mention this fellow did the ride with a broken rib, recently having a schooling mishap on a spoiled horse he'd gotten in. The same horse completed the ride, too.


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

I was all set to ask about the importance of posting on a particular diagonal when I decided to Google it instead. Something that seemed so unimportant suddenly became crystal-clear as very important. 

Love learning new things!


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## hollysjubilee (Nov 2, 2012)

boots said:


> This came up at a dinner with friends last night. One of the men recently did a Calvary reenactment ride. He's a rancher. Of the nineteen who started the 145 mile ride, only he and 3 others knew to post. The remaining 15 rode what they considered to be western and had never even tried.
> 
> He tried to ride along the column and coach them. Most did not have the core and thigh strength to do it. A few caught on and though muscle sore, did not develop the saddle sores that the remainder did.
> 
> ...


(off topic) A woman who lived at the polo ranch I worked at in CO, did loads of Cavalry (Indian Wars, I think, mostly) reenactments with her TWH . . . She had 3 McClellan Saddles! and just loved the camaraderie and excitement that is such a part of the experience.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

greenhaven said:


> I was all set to ask about the importance of posting on a particular diagonal when I decided to Google it instead. Something that seemed so unimportant suddenly became crystal-clear as very important...


I'll disagree, from the perspective of a learning rider. When taking lessons, I had more emphasis put on getting the diagonal correct than on moving in balance and in synch with my horse. It was something of a shock to ask what the correct diagonal was when riding a straight line and be told "There isn't one". Once I stopped worrying about diagonals, I could focus on balance. My #1 priority was to learn to post without pulling on the reins, slamming my butt back into the saddle, etc.

For longer rides in mostly straight lines...well, lets just say my diagonal is likely to change every few hundred yards just because I'm not consistent. Even then, getting the balance right is 80% of the battle for me.

I'm also going to buck conventional wisdom (as I often do). If you need to thrust forward as well as up, then I think either your body needs to lean forward or your heels need to come back. If you are balanced with 50% of your weight in front of and 50% of your weight in back of the stirrups, then there is no need to move forward. Writing from a forward seat perspective, Chamberlin taught:








​ 
From a center balance riding viewpoint, if your ear, shoulder, hip and heel are aligned, you do not need to come forward. You simply unfold up and fold back down. Doing this allows you to get help from the stirrup. That is huge for someone who rides an hour a week instead of 10 hours/day - particularly when starting off.

This was Chamberlin's advice for first getting into the saddle (click on it to enlarge for reading):








​ 
Here is another unconventional view - you can post on your own diagonal. I have often ridden with my feet forward, heels down and back straight as a defense against a horse who would often stop without being asked to do so. It is entirely possible to post in that position. Just use the legs like shock absorbers, operating at a diagonal, and clear the seat by an inch while posting. The horse doesn't know if your seat is an inch in the air or 6 inches. He'll get the same relief. By posting discretely instead of aggressively, you can cheat and the horse still benefits from your rump staying out of the saddle a stride.

I'll open myself up for some humiliation here, but that is OK. Because of his background (his previous rider makes me look like a runt, and Bandit probably weighs 800-850), Bandit tends to trot hard with a braced back, and he'll stop in a heartbeat without any warning I've discerned. I don't know if I was in two point or at the top of a post in this picture:








​ 
Either way, my weight is slightly behind a straight line drawn from my stirrups up...but it was close. I'm close to my personal posting/two point goal - rump off the saddle but jeans still touching. I didn't kiss his neck on that ride or hit the bucking rolls when he slammed on the brakes, so I think my position was getting the job done.

Two weeks later we are both starting to relax. We had some nice trots going down the road side by side with Trooper yesterday...and some rather ugly ones that looked a lot like the picture. :icon_rolleyes:

For a beginner, or someone who doesn't ride many hours a day, I think things like long legs, small movements and using the stirrups helps. I also think swapping continuously between two point and posting helps. You cannot ride in a chair seat if you are going from posting to two point and back to posting. Once the student learn the feel of his/her horse's balance, they won't want to...


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## hollysjubilee (Nov 2, 2012)

bsms said:


> I'll disagree, from the perspective of a learning rider. When taking lessons, I had more emphasis put on getting the diagonal correct than on moving in balance and in synch with my horse. It was something of a shock to ask what the correct diagonal was when riding a straight line and be told "There isn't one". Once I stopped worrying about diagonals, I could focus on balance. My #1 priority was to learn to post without pulling on the reins, slamming my butt back into the saddle, etc.
> 
> For longer rides in mostly straight lines...well, lets just say my diagonal is likely to change every few hundred yards just because I'm not consistent. Even then, getting the balance right is 80% of the battle for me.
> 
> ...


When on trail, it is quite good for us and for our horses to change diagonals every mile. While I find myself often posting on the left diagonal without even looking on most horses, I have to consciously pick the right one. Obviously, one side of me is stronger and one side of the horse is stronger. If a horse pushes harder off the right hind (left diagonal) then that's when I will naturally rise. Horses have a strong side, just as we do, so to benefit both of us in the strengthening/balance department, I need to make the conscious decision to switch on long rides.

*I absolutely believe that standing* (and it's not a straight up, knees unbent standing) *at the walk and trot* (canter, too, when the student gets there) *is the best remedy for teaching control for posting.* When the rider makes his/her own choice of when to rise or fall, then posting is not an issue, but a natural movement.

I am trying to understand your comment about leaning forward and coming up. I think I can see that position in your photo. 

When I demonstrate to students, I stand on the ground, feet flat, as if I'm mounted -- knees slightly bent, eyes forward, head up, back straight, arms in rein-holding position.

#1: I show what happens to my shoulders and hands if I pump up and down in that position.

#2: Then I show what happens to my shoulders and arms when I open knees slightly and roll forward onto my inner thigh, bringing hips up and forward (and when actually coming forward, the left hip will lead with the left diagonal, and the right hip will lead with the right diagonal, thus twisting our pelvis each time. Good reason to switch on long rides.) Depending on the trot of the horse, it may be only an inch of air between my tush and the saddle, or it may be more . . . but just enough to miss the bumps.

In #1, shoulders and hands rise and fall, thus moving the reins up and down as well.

In #2, shoulders and hands stay still, which they need to be at the trot.

The difference in the demo on the ground and the actual trotting is that there is forward movement, so depending on the speed, shoulders forward (a bit) may be necessary to keep centered with the horse . . . but leaning forward in two point, unless on a hill or gallop or standing canter, doesn't seem necessary.

Either way, you found what works for you, and that is excellent! Some folks can learn to post just by feel and may not even know they're doing it. . . others take lots of practice and explanation. The first person who ever posted a trot must have felt so relieved to have figured out how to make riding the trot more pleasant.


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

bsms said:


> I'll disagree, from the perspective of a learning rider.


I completely concede to that. I was just wondering to myself why it even matters what diagonal you post on. The article explains that perfectly. But I agree it is more important for a beginner to learn the posting rhythm before focusing on diagonals.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

hollysjubilee said:


> I absolutely believe that standing (and it's not a straight up, knees unbent standing) at the walk and trot (canter, too, when the student gets there) is the best remedy for teaching control for posting. When the rider makes his/her own choice of when to rise or fall, then posting is not an issue, but a natural movement.


Holly, you and I are almost suggesting the same thing to learn posting when I say two-point and you say standing but not straight up. This is a good article about two-point (also called half seat, in this article). H/J riders close their hip angle 30 degrees for a posting trot, the same angle for a two-point. 

Which Half-seat is Correct? | Practical Horseman Magazine

Edit to add-on: Agree that learning diagonals is not important until a rider can easily post. It is very frustrating for a rider that does not have the rhythm of posting to try to figure out their diagonal when they bounce by mistake a stride or two.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I wasn't able to read thru all of the posts.... but, what kind of saddle is she using? I have found a dressage saddle really is nice for learning to post/sit correctly. I well-fit dressage saddle will really help a person keep their legs underneath them, and not in the chair position.

I agree with the person who said to correct the chair seat issue first, once that is better posting will be much easier.


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## hollysjubilee (Nov 2, 2012)

updownrider said:


> Holly, you and I are almost suggesting the same thing to learn posting when I say two-point and you say standing but not straight up. This is a good article about two-point (also called half seat, in this article). H/J riders close their hip angle 30 degrees for a posting trot, the same angle for a two-point.
> 
> Which Half-seat is Correct? | Practical Horseman Magazine
> 
> Edit to add-on: Agree that learning diagonals is not important until a rider can easily post. It is very frustrating for a rider that does not have the rhythm of posting to try to figure out their diagonal when they bounce by mistake a stride or two.



Thank you for sharing that article. I know, well, the area where Robin Petersen lives. When teaching standing at the walk and trot, I do allow some bend at the hip although I'm not sure it's 30%. (geometry wasn't my favorite subject) One has have some hip bend since the knees don't straighten all the way when we "stand" on horseback. The video below is a lesson video that I found, and in it, the rider is learning posting trot, and her body position is more like what I teach and what I do . . . and she doesn't lean forward as much as what I think I'm picturing from bsms's post and from the picture in the article from Practical Horseman. *I love the lower leg position in the photo in the article* though, because if he were standing on the ground in that same position, he would not fall forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeOE-DlUIkY

Here is another video (from the organization with which I was certified) that teaches the difference between 2-point and half-seat. Here, the rider is further forward in her upper body than what I teach for learning to stand at walk and trot (start without holding reins while on the longe-line.) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty3BH0PjxDQ

In this second video, *I am not content with the position of the rider's lower leg at the standstill* (around 2:34) as I think that if her horse started moving and she had to maintain her position, she would fall backward. Also, if she were on the ground in that position, I think she'd be on her tush pretty quickly. She seems to be pushing forward, braced against the stirrup rather than resting into her inner thigh and knee and allowing the weight to drain down through her heel. As she demonstrates with her horse moving, I see her lower leg has moved further back, and *when she halts the horse at the end, her leg is in the position I like to see.* In fact, I tell my students to find their balance standing, then SIT WITHOUT MOVING THEIR LOWER LEG, and it will be the correct position for their lower leg as they ride. I often have them sit or stand throughout the lesson to teach them where their lower leg needs to be for balance. If they are trotting along and I say "stand," and they fall forward or backward or I see them correct their leg position in order to stand, then it's a good lesson for them to keep their legs there for most all of their riding. (Always necessary changes to be made depending on the terrain and type of riding or for some cues.)


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Holly- I am not going to debate with you about the definition of a half seat v. a two point. If George Morris can use them interchangeably, then that is good enough for me. 

This video that you posted is a person learning to post by thrusting her hips forward while her upper body is on the vertical. It is a dressage instructor teaching the lesson. I specifically said in my post that "*H/J riders* close their hip angle 30 degrees for a posting trot". I gave my suggestions on how to teach a rider to post in my OP, and that was based on 50 years experience. I was agreeing with you in my 2nd post, but now I realize we have different methods and styles.


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## hollysjubilee (Nov 2, 2012)

updownrider said:


> Holly- I am not going to debate with you about the definition of a half seat v. a two point. If George Morris can use them interchangeably, then that is good enough for me.
> 
> This video that you posted is a person learning to post by thrusting her hips forward while her upper body is on the vertical. It is a dressage instructor teaching the lesson. I specifically said in my post that "*H/J riders* close their hip angle 30 degrees for a posting trot". I gave my suggestions on how to teach a rider to post in my OP, and that was based on 50 years experience. I was agreeing with you in my 2nd post, but now I realize we have different methods and styles.


Please understand that I wasn't debating you, but was explaining how I have taught students to post in balance as I thought that the original question was how to help teach someone who wasn't "getting" the rhythm while not being able to keep a lazy horse going. Whatever works for people so they can be safe, happy, and have happy horses is fine with me.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It always helps to have the rider's center of gravity (CG) match the horse's CG. The least amount of vertical motion for the horse is naturally at their CG. If you had to ride their hips at a canter, you would feel like you were on a bronco.

Naturally, the horse's CG is roughly at the withers although it varies with speed and what the horse is doing. A saddle cannot put your rump there without interfering with the shoulder. So there are two ways of attacking the problem:

1 - Feet forward, shoulders forward. The rider shifts his CG forward to match the horse.

2 - Shoulder - hip - heel vertical. The horse shifts HIS weight back, putting his CG under the rider (collection).

If I want to sit the trot, my best bet is to teach the horse to collect - shift his weight under mine. If I want to go faster, my best bet it to lean forward and put my CG over his. That is also the easiest, since I don't have to teach my horse anything to do it.

The horse's CG will shift constantly. You can feel it very dramatically by trotting to a barrel (or pylon) and doing a tight turn around it - in two point. The horse WILL shift his balance to the rear to get around the turn, and you will either go back with him or fall forward.

Bandit has been known to put on full brakes at a fast trot. I assume this is similar to how it feels when a horse balks at a jump, although I've never jumped. He also throws his head up when he stops fast, and his head goes WAY up! I wasn't entirely joking about kissing his neck! Heck, his neck was about all that kept me on him a few times.

Add in my fondness for Littauer and Chamberlin, and how I came to ride western like I do is pretty well explained. A moderator who left the forum a few years back, maura, got me to read Littauer. I have come to understand why she felt more secure riding in a jump saddle than I did in ANY saddle: a good forward seat gives you a strong position for staying on a horse who does the unexpected. IMHO. Although it may just be that I'm too used to it now to be happy any other way...and George Morris would probably toss his cookies if he heard me say that and saw me ride!

For posting, though, the principle is the same. If you are riding a horse who is either collected or who just is lazy, you can bring your heel back under your CG. It won't harm you on a lazy horse and it will match your CG to your horse's on a collected horse - I assume, since my horses don't collect much, often or long.

For a more forward horse, heels and shoulders forward will bring your CG forward over his - unless you do a tight turn, when you'll need to shift both back to keep in balance with your horse.

But if you do these things in a two point, then posting should largely just be unfolding and folding in time with the stride. If you can choose a diagonal, that is even better. If you can do it without stirrups, that is great also. But I'll be honest - at my level of riding, doing it well without stirrups wouldn't happen.

For the original post, if the horse is lazy, dull and needs a kick or a crop at times to keep it moving, then some long legged two point will teach the balance while providing the security to urge the horse forward. It helped me to learn it on a saddle with a horn (my Aussie-style saddle) since I could hold the reins with one hand and the horn with the other. Working on a lunge line or using mane also ought to work.

This is an old picture of my youngest learning to post. It could be used as an example of how to do everything wrong at once:








​ 
Chair seat in a too big saddle. Way behind the motion. So she would tilt her feet down and thrust up and forward with her hips, gripping with the knee to make it possible. That would bring her heels behind her and almost launch her off the front of the horse. What goes up must then come down, and she would plop into the saddle like a sack of potatoes dropped from the second story. Happily, Trooper was & is an amazing horse who likes her and takes care of her...and yes, my youngest is much better now.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I only kind of skimmed the posts because I am in a hurry, so I apologize.

She is riding in a youth all-around saddle. Previously she was in a saddle that was too big for her. I did bring her stirrups up some and that helped greatly. I am having to put my foot down a little bit with her mother, who is always jumping in to change decisions I have made for her.

The gelding I just have a problem with because I have not been around him enough. He is leased from their friend. I have ridden him once briefly and have had him on the lunge, he's just a typical school horse from what I can tell - Always testing!

She does ride with a whip, but she doesn't quite know how to handle it yet. One step at a time I suppose.

She is posting better this last time we rode, but she definitely sticks her leg too far forward. I actually had her on the lunge with the whip in front of her leg to keep it back and she found it much easier to feel it after that, which is good.

She actually sits the trot very well. She's an athlete and has naturally strong core muscles already which she is transferring.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I cannot get past this desire to post in a western saddle, a new phenomenon that has occurred during my lifetime. I do not believe that it creates a better rider, I do not believe it fits the purpose of riding a western horse, and bsms even pointed out how his DD's saddle created a lot more work to post the trot. You hit the swells, and I do not like how that feels.
With an English saddle, posting is a breeze, and it becomes second nature. There is no high pommel in the way of your thighs as with a western saddle. There is no horn in the way of your stomach, should your horse stop suddenly and you fall forward. That horn serves no purpose if you are not working with cattle, anyway. When you ride western the style is to sit the "jog", or slow trot, and then transition to the canter when you want to go faster. By posting a fast trot you unintentionally teach your horse to "road trot", that really fast and hard hitting trot that makes a horse NOT want to break to the canter. In fact, they often break to the gallop, because the road trot is balanced too far forward and the horse is racing forwards.
When you ride English you maintain a feel of the mouth and control your horse's frame, and I ask for some collection and often do many half halts to assist.
When you trot Western your horse is supposed to maintain his own frame and go at the jog on cruise control.
So, where, as a western rider does posting help, or come into play?
It reminds me of how I used to teach people how to mount a horse, by using a fence. After several tries of pulling yourself up, which is hard, I taught them to bend their leg, and spring forward and over. I have seen people post in a western saddle by standing up and literally falling with their whole weight back on the saddle, slamming it into the horse's back.
Please consider learning to post the trot in an English saddle. Why? Because if you are do not have a balanced seat, you post and lose your balance and fall! The modern western saddle encourages saddle dependency for balance.
Few people post correctly with a western saddle, especially since the old time western saddle which had a pommel just like the McClellan, a triangle in the front of the saddle, no longer exists.
Just MHO, folks.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

I thought the OP's student is riding English. 

Quote from the OP:


SorrelHorse said:


> I recently took on a young girl who rides english.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Corporal said:


> When you trot Western your horse is supposed to maintain his own frame and go at the jog on cruise control.
> So, where, as a western rider does posting help, or come into play?


If all one does is a slow jog, one can sit that regardless of saddle type. 

I know of no one in ranch country who gets anything done at a slow jog. Maybe a few steps, but that's it. It's a non-functional gait for working horses and people. 

And unless you are over 100, people have been posting in western saddles as far as I know, in your lifetime.  Since I've been riding for almost 50 years and adults always have. I don't hit the swells on my 14 and a 1/2 inch seat saddle, either. I'm trying to imagine that one. I don't rise very much regardless of saddle type.

But the talk of maintaining a frame makes me think we are talking apples and oranges. Trotting out over rough country is really different than trotting in small pastures, smooth trails, and in arenas. 

Not better. Not bad. Just different. Different needs.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

I didn't realize it, but for the first 16 months of riding, I was learning to ride in a chair seat position. It was my saddle's fault mostly, built for endurance riding, not the English riding I was learning.

I bought a new jumping saddle (Devoucoux. LOVE it!) and had to re-learn my position -- that was a painful and frustrating experience -- but I'm so glad I did it because I'm a much better rider now. I can do everything better as a result of that change brought on by the saddle!

Many on the forum here advised me to get a new saddle when the new one was throwing my legs too far forward, but I listened to some others on the forum and the saddle salesman and tried to stick with it, got a lesson from him on how to properly position my legs and body, and after a few months, everything changed. I realized that before I was kind of falling back in the trot instead of flexing at the knee, lowering myself down in a modified squat type movement.

So, first, I'd advise you to get that student out of that chair-seat position. It's harder to post when you're falling back onto the horse instead of bending at the knee and using your thigh muscles to stand and squat, stand and squat like you do in a more forward seat.

Second, I'd have her practice doing a posting trot while seated and without stirrups. That really helps you feel the movement of the horse.

Also, I'd tell her that you should go up (partially stand in the stirrups) when you feel the horse's butt kind of throwing you up in that direction.

Last, make sure she's not hunching over. She needs to keep her back straight for the movement to be fluid and feel right.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

Corporal said:


> I cannot get past this desire to post in a western saddle, a new phenomenon that has occurred during my lifetime. I do not believe that it creates a better rider, I do not believe it fits the purpose of riding a western horse, and bsms even pointed out how his DD's saddle created a lot more work to post the trot. You hit the swells, and I do not like how that feels.
> With an English saddle, posting is a breeze, and it becomes second nature. There is no high pommel in the way of your thighs as with a western saddle. There is no horn in the way of your stomach, should your horse stop suddenly and you fall forward. That horn serves no purpose if you are not working with cattle, anyway. When you ride western the style is to sit the "jog", or slow trot, and then transition to the canter when you want to go faster. By posting a fast trot you unintentionally teach your horse to "road trot", that really fast and hard hitting trot that makes a horse NOT want to break to the canter. In fact, they often break to the gallop, because the road trot is balanced too far forward and the horse is racing forwards.
> When you ride English you maintain a feel of the mouth and control your horse's frame, and I ask for some collection and often do many half halts to assist.
> When you trot Western your horse is supposed to maintain his own frame and go at the jog on cruise control.
> ...


I heard that "posting" is called posting because it was used by the pony express when delivering the post. They did it to save the horse's back and their own butts!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_I cannot get past this desire to post in a western saddle, a new phenomenon that has occurred during my lifetime. I do not believe that it creates a better rider, I do not believe it fits the purpose of riding a western horse, and bsms even pointed out how his DD's saddle created a lot more work to post the trot. You hit the swells, and I do not like how that feels._"

I took some lessons at Utah State in the late 70s. I was taught to post because it is easier on the horse and trotting and posting gets you to work with a horse who still has the energy to work.

You do not hit the swells posting in a western saddle - unless you do it wrong. You do not hit the poleys on an Australian saddle when posting - unless you do it wrong. A 4'11" girl riding in a 16" western saddle is simply riding the wrong saddle...except she was a teen and she KNEW it was the right saddle and Dad couldn't tell her otherwise. :icon_rolleyes: Must be nice to be so smart in your teens...

I suspect riding two point in a western saddle is about as odd as it gets, but I find two point and posting good practices to know and use western, English or Australian. A debt I'll always owe Littauer is his comment that good riding is defined by moving in fluid balance with your horse. He wrote as a jumping instructor, but what he said works with any saddle I've tried. When you have it right, you move in continuous balance with your horse. That principle of English riding is still completely true, IMHO, of western riding.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This might help explain why and how you teach them to 'kneel up' rather than stand up in the stirrups (which is useful for straightening your leg but destabilizes the leg when riding, in half seat/2 point you ride off your knee and thigh strength not push yourself from your stirrups)
The stirrups look short in the video but its a small child on a fairly wide pony, an older child could have the stirrups that bit longer and still be able to post easily


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

" _in half seat/2 point you ride off your knee and thigh strength not push yourself from your stirrups_"

That might be a difference western vs English. I ride maybe 5 hours/week. I might have enough thigh strength to do some posting or two point off my thighs in my Australian saddle, although I honestly would not last long like that. In the western, the combination of the wider tree, the thickness of the fenders and simply the slickness of my smooth leather, hard seat saddle would not allow it.

If you look closely, my knee is where the off billet goes, and has the fender with its layers directly underneath:








​ 
Here is what the saddle has between my knee and the horse :eek_color: :








​ 
You simply are not going to get much grip there. With no grip, there is no way to pivot the thigh around the knee. In fact, there is little chance of gripping much with the thigh. My thigh supports weight, and there is SOME grip possible if my horse suddenly stops - but there isn't much. It is very different from the Bates CC or AP saddle, and also from my Australian one.

However, it also goes against the way I was taught, where you do not want to grip with the knee or thigh, but want the weight to flow uninterrupted into the heel. That is what gives the lower heel, and the lower heel helps secure the leg and rider at a balk (or Bandit deciding to throw the brakes on!).

And in the video, when the boy comes down, he comes down hard because he is behind the motion of the horse. If your center of gravity falls behind your base of support, then gravity pulls you down hard instead of settling lightly for a moment and then back up.

I know lots of folks will practice posting and two point without stirrups. At my level, and I suspect at many beginner levels, that will require a fitness that isn't there. It may be an admirable goal to work toward. I have no experience at that level of riding. But if someone is having problems learning to post, and fighting a chair seat, then...use the stirrups. Once they get the balance and rhythm right, they are welcome to advance beyond me. Speaking as someone who will always be a beginner, break things down into what is possible for the beginner before trying to stretch their envelope. 

It goes back to another one of Littauer's points: the beginning rider cannot ride like the top rider because he is not a top rider. He lacks the physical ability and feel. Simplify, teach the base, then work on more. Addition and subtraction come before algebra.

BTW - for all my faults as a rider, I don't think I have any problem with a destabilized leg. Mostly, my lower leg is where I want it to be. If I keep my center of gravity above my stirrups, or deliberately behind or ahead for special situations, then gravity stabilizes it fine. It is balance that makes the leg stable, not grip. At least, for me. But I'm increasingly a western rider with forward seat origins, so I may not represent what the OP's student needs.

PPS: I know some of this is going off topic, but I think this is a wonderful thread for learning from folks who ride better than I do, and trying to adapt what they have learned in the English world to what I need using a western saddle in the Sonoran desert. My thanks to the OP and all participating. This is like taking a lesson from y'all!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms - I appreciate your input but I'm trying to explain the correct way to do things from an English riding perspective and using a decent English saddle
I've taught many children and unfit adults to ride and they have no problem rising off their knees and eventually learning how to ride correctly in 2 point
Obviously the more effort you put into strengthening your legs and core you stronger a rider you will be
Standing up in your stirrups is not '2 point' - its just 'standing up in your stirrups'
If you push too hard against your stirrups when trying to post your legs will swing forwards into that sinful 'chair seat' or slide backwards and pitch your body forwards


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

"Posting" is named for the riders who rode the lead horse of the 6 (maybe, 8?) that were driven for the London Post beginning in the 18th century. The trot is the most efficient gait to pull. The horse does not jerk on the wagon, or whatever is being pulled, as at the canter, but can make good time and not wear out. It was hard to sit for mile after mile, so somebody came up with sit one, don't sit one, kinda like knit one, pearl one, at least that comes to MY mind. =b
Posting is not necessary, unless you show English. I DO know how to post. It is second nature to me. When I last took my 16'3hh KMH gelding through an unfamiliar stream and he decided to trot, which was a BIG trot, I naturally posted it.
bsms, your4 saddle has a shallow pommel. Many western saddles look like this:
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/thesaddleshop/dk2212a.jpg
THIS:
http://westernsaddlehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/8531683_4.jpg
is the old time western saddle. Note that the tree does _not_ have the huge swell on the previous picture, and it does not get in the way of a half seat.
It also makes the rider work at their balance because you can slide forward if you don't sit balanced.
THAT brings me back to the point I made on my first post on this thread. The student in question, needs, MORE than anything else, to develop balance and an understanding of a correct, light grip, lower thigh, knee and upper calf, and to relax everything below the belt in order to sit weighted. This, like training yourself to ride with your seat independent of your arms and both independent of your legs do NOT come naturally to the human sitting on and trying to control the horse.

All gaits and posting and a correct half seat come after the seat is developed first.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ...If you push too hard against your stirrups when trying to post your legs will swing forwards into that sinful 'chair seat' or slide backwards and pitch your body forwards


I use my stirrups all the time, and my legs don't move.

Why? Because my center of gravity is over the stirrups. Knees not gripping, since I want the weight to flow past my knees into my heels. English saddle. Australian saddle. Western saddle. All the same.

If pushing against the stirrups (which means weight is in your heel, physics requires one for the other) moves your feet forward, it means your center of gravity is behind the stirrups. Since the stirrup bars are roughly at the horse's center of gravity, it means you are probably behind the horse.

If it results in your feet going back, your center of gravity is in front of the stirrups and probably in front of the horse. Get ready to kiss your horse's neck.

But if your center of gravity is over the stirrups, then pressing means you go up. Not forward. Not backwards. Up. While your legs remain steady.

And if your center of gravity is over your stirrups, you will settle gently into the saddle. In the video you posted, the kids butt fell into the saddle because he had no way to stop it - his weight was behind his support, and gravity did the rest.

"_Standing up in your stirrups is not '2 point' - its just 'standing up in your stirrups_'"

Ummm...two point is having two points of support - 2 legs."_Two-point contact lifts the rider's weight off the horse's back and puts it down into his heels and stirrups...At this point, the two nominal points of contact between the horse and the rider are the rider's legs...

...Three point contact...is distinguished by contact...thru the weight of the seat as well as both legs._.." 

- George Morris, Hunter Seat Equitation

"_This position is taken by standing and weighting the stirrups as though the rider were jumping or galloping...This helps develop a strong position based on the stirrup...In the forward riding system, the position of the body and legs in the saddle on the flat directly relates to the jumping position. If the rider has the correct design of position and the correct weight distribution on the flat - for example, at the posting trot - the rider will be much more prepared to correctly apply it at the jump, which only lasts about a second or even less..." 
_
- Paul Cronin, Schooling and Riding the Sport Horse​Weight in the heels and stirrups is not possible if it is all in the knee. There is ALWAYS pressure in the thigh if the stirrups are long. I haven't found any position on a horse that does NOT have weight in the thigh. But you cannot have weight "down into his heels and stirrups" without using the stirrups. As you should. That is why they are there.

If your center of gravity is over the stirrups, and your weight flows into your stirrups via relaxed ankles, your lower leg will stay in one spot like it is glued. Not because you are hanging on to the horse with your leg, but because of your balance.








​
When the balance is right, the lower leg has no reason to move.

If your thigh needs to pivot around your knee for you to get to the top of the posting position, then your center of gravity is behind. That is OK for some things. If your horse is likely to slam on the brakes without telling you, it improves your chances of staying on the horse. It is protective, but it is not balanced.

I am admittedly quite odd in applying this to western riding - a non-jumping fan of the forward SYSTEM of riding. But it works. The knee can be snug against all that leather, but it cannot grip or provide a pivot point. Nor should it, as I understand it, in an English or Australian saddle if one is using a forward approach to riding.

And from what I remember of my English saddles, and is certainly true in my Australian ones, the knee is far enough down that it is against the horse's SIDE, not the back. It can only support weight if one grips, because the horse's body - certainly with slender Bandit - is already vertical by that time. Even Mia, with the Australian saddle - the knee is against her vertical side, so it can support no weight without squeezing and gripping:








​


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

Corporal said:


> THIS:
> http://westernsaddlehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/8531683_4.jpg


Can I just go on record as saying _I want that_?!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

From a barrel racing perspective, posting is important. It is a tool to emphasize your body language to the horse in an obvious way when they are young - Posting trot = moving out, if I make a move and sit, you better be slowing the trot.

I worked for a couple years in my young life with a reined cowhorse trainer. The man is in the hall of fame for the NRCHA and has been around for an extremely long time. I did not post with his horses unless I was out gathering in cattle.I long trotted while sitting, I slow trotted while sitting. It didn't matter. It was two very different styles.

When I was in my "english" phase I rode giant horses with giant gaits, and almost always posted.

I ride western and I adjust myself to the horse I am riding.

To clarify, my student does ride english. I'm not really certain why we are talking about posting in a western saddle, but I'm game if the rest of you are. If you learned from someone competent, you will post correctly. Balance is balance is balance, I never experience any different feeling in my post from an english saddle to a western saddle, or bareback. I have always felt just as free, and secure. I know I learned from someone versatile who knew what she was doing - I also know not everyone has that opportunity and I am forever grateful for the foundation that will propel me in life. Right now, I am just trying to do the same basic program for this kiddo that I got at her age.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Having your weight sinking down into your heels is not the same thing as putting your weight on the stirrups and then using them to push yourself up either in posting trot or in 2 point

My teaching method is the one taught to me when training for my British Horse Society Instructors Certificate so I think I'll stick with it.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> "_Standing up in your stirrups is not '2 point' - its just 'standing up in your stirrups_'"
> 
> Ummm...two point is having two points of support - 2 legs."_Two-point contact lifts the rider's weight off the horse's back and puts it down into his heels and stirrups...At this point, the two nominal points of contact between the horse and the rider are the rider's legs...
> 
> ...






Go back to the previous pages of that book and look at the diagrams and read the text. George says the two-point position has an inclined upper body angle and in the 'up' exercise says it is 30 degrees. It is a more than standing up, it is a position that has 2 points of contact.

OP- sorry this went off topic. You received good information early in this thread.​


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Go back to the previous pages of that book and look at the diagrams and read the text. George says the two-point position has an inclined upper body angle and in the 'up' exercise says it is 30 degrees. It is a more than standing up, it is a position that has 2 points of contact...


I was unaware I had denied that. My response was to

"_Standing up in your stirrups is not '2 point' - its just 'standing up in your stirrups'
If you push too hard against your stirrups when trying to post your legs will swing forwards into that sinful 'chair seat' or slide backwards and pitch your body forwards_"

While 2 point is more than standing in a vertical line in the stirrups, it most certainly involves pushing against the stirrups, and is normally done with weight in the stirrups. Indeed, in the picture I posted of me, I was leaning too far forward for the speed and length of stirrups - not by much, but a little. The higher the stirrups, the more the body must incline. My stirrups are long, so there is less inclination. But my legs certainly do not go back and forth because I have weight in them. They are stable by balance, not by grip.








​ 
Not "standing in the stirrups", but certainly not ignoring them either.

And most certainly NOT using my knee as a pivot point so my thigh can rotate around my knee as I thrust my body forward and up. I'm not rising off my knees - nor should I, if Littauer, Chamberlin, the US Cavalry and Cronin are correct. If you want weight going into your heel, you should not interrupt the flow at the knee. Creating a pivot point at the knee leaves you perched on top of the horse, not settled around the horse.

That was the main point of the video jaydee posted - to create a pivot point at the knee and kneel up. That is contrary to what I was taught (via books). It is also contrary to how I've ridden and what seems to work well in 3 types of saddles.

I'll delete this in a couple of weeks, but this is not my idea of a good way to post:








​ 
If the kid had the stirrup back further OR leaned forward further - either would do - he would be more secure, more balanced and easier on the horse. I see nothing to admire in what he is being taught: toes down, gripping with the knee, pivoting and thrusting up and forward because he starts behind the motion - and then gravity pulls him back down there!

I don't know how often the student at the start of this thread rides. If it is 6 times a week, then she might be able to do it all from the thigh - although I don't know why someone would want to since that leaves the person less secure. If your center of gravity is over your stirrups, you will not have a chair seat. That is by definition. You will also be more secure and better balanced, and can post well without the leg strength of a frequent rider.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

You might want to watch this, bsms. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUsJpLejrf4


Greg Best is very much a forward seat rider so watch his leg and position while he jumps big jumps. It moves slightly. The forward seat method was developed for jumping. As George says in the book you quote often, the two point is the jumping position. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4F0rFVLmkE

This thread went too far off topic.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

updownrider said:


> ...The forward seat method was developed for jumping. As George says in the book you quote often, the two point is the jumping position...this thread went too far off topic.


Actually, from a historical note, the forward seat was NOT a jump seat. It was taught by Caprilli, Chamberlin, Littauer and others as a system of RIDING, not a way to get over a jump. The US Cavalry taught to shorten stirrups if you planned to jump 4 feet or higher. Other than that, the jump seat and the riding seat was unchanged. Thus the Cronin quote:

"_In the forward riding system, the position of the body and legs in the saddle on the flat directly relates to the jumping position. If the rider has the correct design of position and the correct weight distribution on the flat - for example, at the posting trot - the rider will be much more prepared to correctly apply it at the jump, which only lasts about a second or even less..." 
_
It was not a way to get over a jump. It was a way to ride. I don't jump. But I do ride forward.

It is also germane to the question posed: How do you teach someone to post?

One way, apparently, it to teach them to grip with thigh and knee, "rising off their knees", with the thigh pivoting around the knee as the hips go up and forward.

Another way, discussed by a number of forward seat proponents, is to have the center of gravity over the stirrups, weight in the heels, and unfold/fold with the horse. For a good description, see Gincy Bucklin's "How Your Horse Wants You to Ride" - Chapter 14. Although she is writing from the English perspective, her explanations and method work western as well. Chapters 12 & 13 discuss variations in balance and are also excellent.

For SorrelHorse: The 3 chapters in Bucklin's book are detailed and make much more sense than I do. Her explanations are clear and the photos are good. I think it would be an excellent aid to teaching someone who is having problems with balance and a chair seat. 

With that, I'll leave the thread since I seem to be a distraction. Good luck to y'all, thanks to everyone for the videos and stuff to think about, and I hope the student does great. If that means ignoring everything I wrote...that is OK. I admit to being eccentric and having unusual riding goals.


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## StormWolf68 (May 7, 2015)

I don't know how far along the rider is, but when I was learning to post, I didn't post the trot at first. My instructor had me post the WALK so I could get the hang of being up on the right diagonal. I haven't read what the other posters have said, so there are probably better methods than this.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms - you are quoting Cronin to me? That is funny. I recommended his books to you.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You don't use the knee as a pivot point and that is not what the video I posted was suggesting - the knee has to pinch or grip to pivot - tucking the knee against the rolls of an English saddle to help prevent it from sliding forwards is a very different thing. Good English saddles, dressage, jumping and GP/AP are designed to help the rider position the leg in the right place
QUOTE From Horse Channel.com
_English riders are introduced to the two-point position during their first few lessons. But western riders can improve their position, too, by practicing in two-point. Here’s how to do it properly. _
_But first it’s important to know the definition of “two-point.” Hunt seat guru George Morris is credited with popularizing the term in the 1970s. A rider sitting in a three-point position had contact with their horse through their seat and their two legs. Once the rider assumed a more forward jumping position their seat was elevated out of the saddle. They then had only two points of contact: their two legs, placed against their horse’s sides. _
_Despite what you might think, two-point is more complicated than simply standing up in your stirrups. Instead, begin by stretching your calf muscles so your legs wrap around the sides of your horse. Then sink your weight down into your heels, securing your leg slightly behind the girth. *Now rise* *up from just your knees,* so that your pelvis is suspended above your saddle by just a few inches. Finally, close your hip angle, that part of your body where your torso connects to your hip bones. Don’t make the mistake of breaking over at your waist. Instead, tighten your core muscles and bend at your hip. _
_As your horse walks forward, you’ll feel unsteady at first. To help maintain your balance, push your hands forward onto your horse’s neck, about halfway up the mane. Also allow your body’s angles to incorporate the motion of your horse and act like __shock absorbers__. Your ability to assume and hold the two-point position depends on the strength and position of your lower leg. If your leg slips too far back, you’ll fall forward onto your horse’s neck. If your leg is shoved in front of the girth, you’ll keep tumbling back into the saddle. _
_Indeed, the two-point position’s biggest benefit is that it forces you to develop a secure, tight leg. And, since your lower leg is essentially the basis of support for your entire body in the saddle, practicing the two-point position regularly will only enhance your riding, whether you pursue jumping or perfecting your western horsemanship._

These illustrations show what happens when you 'stand up in your stirrups' and what 2 point should look like

If you post trot by standing in your stirrups you'll rise too far out of the saddle and tend to tilt too far forwards or backwards. If you rise from your knees your lower legs will be much more stable and that will result in a more secure seat that will help the rider keep the horse moving forwards evenly and positively and less likely to come unglued if the horse spooks without prior warning


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ...If you post trot by standing in your stirrups you'll rise too far out of the saddle and tend to tilt too far forwards or backwards....


I know I said I was leaving this thread...but this is factually incorrect. Neither Australian saddles nor western saddles have knee rolls to stabilize the knee - but I've post in both for years.

I also use the stirrups all the time - and have zero problem with falling forward or tilting backwards. And I sure as heck don't come too far out of the saddle. I don't NEED to come far out of the saddle because I don't have far to go - I'm not starting off unbalanced and way behind my horse.

That is why it is so helpful to have your stirrups under your center of gravity. Then YOU control how much you rise, and you are always balanced. As Chamberlin wrote, the test of your position in the saddle is can you ride to the top of the posting position without needing to change your body's tilt. 

This is an unbalanced person standing in the stirrups, having first come from behind to get there - and on the trip, she pulled her stirrups back:










This was Bandit & I working on his braced back trot - so I'm "standing in the stirrups" keeping my butt off his back:










Use the stirrups, get the balance right, and you can stand in the stirrups, do two point, post or whatever in turns around barrels, slowing and accelerating - all without needing to grip with the knee, or "_tucking the knee against the rolls of an English saddle to help prevent it from sliding forwards_", you don't "_rise too far out of the saddle and tend to tilt too far forwards or backwards_", and you do not "_come unglued if the horse spooks without prior warning_". I've done sideways jumps, spins and bolts in that position without ever coming off.Lots of them. Mia was good in that way. She gave me a lot of practice.

I'm a self-taught, backyard rider - self taught unless you count reading books by top riders. When I rode English saddles, I took the knee rolls out. My Australian saddle has no knee rolls. The poleys are there for emergencies. Used them a lot starting off, then almost never. My western saddle is a slick-fork: no swell up front to support you.

If the balance is right, you can stick well to a spinning, twisting, scared horse.

Maybe I was lucky, doing most of my "English riding" in an Australian saddle without knee rolls.

But folks also post western, and do with without "_the rolls of an English saddle to help prevent it from sliding forwards... designed to help the rider position the leg in the right place_". When I took a dozen lessons at Utah State in the 70s, we were taught to post in a western saddle. No knee rolls.

It simply works. If I can do it, darn near anyone can.

But since I'm a nobody rider, please feel free to read "Riding and Schooling Horses" by Harry Chamberlin, or "Common Sense Horsemanship" by VS Littauer, or "How Your Horse Wants You to Ride" by Bucklin. 

Or not. Folks need to do what they think is best. But I practice on every ride what I've preached, and I don't fall forward or back, don't fall of horses and don't need rolls to hold my leg in place...

PS - This photo was from the same day's work as the earlier one. I'm not posting, but standing in the stirrups. Knee is against the saddle, but that is all. Had I been posting, this would be the up position:


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