# When Horses Shut Down



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Most of us horse people know that horses can and do shut down the mental processes. This got me to thinking why and here is what I've come up with. We know that prey animals attack grazing animals for fare and we are uncomfortable if we witness this. My thinking is that the grazing animal shuts down in order to not feel the pain of teeth/claws ripping into it's flesh and to release it from an amount of stress we can't even comprehend. If a disrespectful horse is forced to lay down, it is stressed and will fight this because it can no longer flee the enemy. It is vulnerable to attack. From observation, when the horse lets out the big sigh, it has given up and knows it will die. I'd be interested in what others think about this.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I must say, the only time I have seen a horse shut down is when it's been my fault. Training them to do something incorrectly or too soon and keeping at it. All my fault, but I was younger, older and wiser now.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Horses can switch off in many ways. They can give up as when they are attacked by a prey animal or just switch off from something they do not understand or are fed up with when being ridden.

The fact that when a horse is made to lie down it is at its most vulnerable, it expects to die and when whoever does not kill it, respect is instant. The trainer has made it vulnerable but nothing actually happened so there has to be respect. 

As for the ridden mental breakdown, in all my years with horses, there have been a few for various reasons. Two of the worse were chestnut geldings, one had the most severe cold back that he was unrideable. I vaulted onto him bareback one day and he was fine, cantered off humping his back, ears forward and having fun. Hat had happened with him was that for two years he had only been ridden in an indoor arena. He was totally switched off to being ridden. I rode him bareback for a couple of months, then with a saddle, took him Fox Hunting, cross country, never schooled him just let him go as he wanted. He did exceedingly well show jumping until the regional finals of one class. This was in an indoor arena and when I rode him into the arena he immediately nearly collapsed. I did get him use to being ridden inside but he was never happy inside. 
The other was a very talented dressage horse. Tough as old boots I had done a lot of work with him and went for lessons from a very good dressage instructor. All seemed well but the horse didn't seem his usual self after about eight lessons. He started to not want to load, was sweaty when he arrived and got very uptight in the arena. It took me a while longer to realise that he disliked the way he was being taught. I changed instructors and he was back to himself.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Saddle, did you really come up with that thought all by yourself, never read anything of the sort??

I agree with you, as do very many. I don't think 'shutting a horse down' is always a terrible thing though. 'Flooding' as a technique of desensitising uses this principle & while I wouldn't use it as a regular choice, I can conceive of situations it may be best option. 

I agree also with the other stuff above (Wares, of course it'd be your 'fault' if you threw a horse & it shut down! ;-) ) except for your second paragraph Fox. I don't believe that is any kind of a 'fact' or that it 'has to be respect' at all. I think there have also been scientific experiments done on this & it's likened to humans being 'shell shocked'. So perhaps you could compare how you'd feel if you were trapped & terrified out of your wits by beings you didn't understand... and then they didn't kill you but let you go... under their control. Would this lead you to feelings of 'respect' and trust? I guess it depends on what respect means to you, but...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I do not think that anyone would use flooding as a daily form of training but, it does work. 
When you are working with a lot of horses there are always going to be those that push their chances.

I will use clipping as an example. When I was working in a busy jump racing stables I had the job of clipping all,the horses, 85 residents, that is a _lot_ of clipping and trimming, especially as before Christmas most were clipped at least once a month. 
During the course of the season there were probably over 100+horses through that yard. 
Majority of the horses were fine to clip. A couple were genuinely nervous and took a lot of time to get done, no dope no twitch just patience. Others, especially as they got fit and ticklish, would suddenly decide that they were not going to be clipped. I could have spent all day being nice to them and persuading them to be done or, I could get 'cross' with them - this would be followed by 'very cross' in both cases I would get after the horse when it was loose in the stable, I would make it back away from me, use my voice to let it know I was not there to be laughed at, chaffed at or made a fool of. I _never_ beat the horse up, the strongest was to slap it across the chest with the halter rope (they were all rugged up so the rope was not really touching them) and when it showed submission signs I would tie it up and continue to clip as if nothing happened. 
I took charge, plain and simple. If I had spent time 'persuading the horse to allow me to clip it I doubt I would ever have finished it. These horses were _not_ afraid they were just taking charge. They did not shut down after flooding, they accepted that I was boss.
Before I did the clipping there were several horses that the vet had to dope so they could be clipped. None of the horses were afraid of me, I could always halter them and, when they were being good they were praised for it. 
Their choice, clippers or me getting cross! 

It is no different to human reaction. Get a situation where say there is an accident, if someone gets hysterical that hysteria will spread to others. If someone takes charge and issues orders, tells the hysteric person to shut up and get a grip, even to the point of getting physical with a slap, that hysteria will dissipate to the point of sobbing and then they gain control of themselves. 

Generally with some situations whether horse or human, if someone is prepared to take control others will be content to follow.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I brought this up mainly because I hear comments of horror when we see (good old National Geographic) graphic pictures of grazing animals being pulled down by a large cat. And we hear so much about the cruelty of nature that it made me begin to wonder if nature was really that cruel or if the brain is so flooded with endorphins that the animal ceases to feel. Because I've been around horses a long time, and not animals in the wild, it's given me a chance to observe this on a lesser scale. Loosie, no research on this, just observations. Look at hormonal driven male animals that will engage in battle until one is near death or limps off. It seems the animals are oblivious to pain.


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## Sheepdog (Sep 25, 2011)

Saddlebag, I don't think they're oblivious, just more stoic. If they show pain it can be conceived as weakness by a predator and become prey.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION

I think horses know the difference. They don't fear predators all the time…only when a predator acts like a predator. Zebras and lions share/live the same area, but the zebra knows by the actions of the lion when its hunting and when its doing other lion-y things. If ANYTHING chases a horse, it will run. It's not BEING a predator that matters to a horse, but rather what it is DOING. Horses aren't born knowing what a predator is…if they did they wouldn't care about sheep and pigs…but they do, until they become familiar with them. No horse has EVER seen a human attack and kill another horse…and when has a predator ever fed or taken care of a horse before it attacks and kills it?

As far as the driven male, testosterone and adrenaline make a powerful pain killer.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree with you Fox, with your further explanation. I also agree that horses don't *necessarily* fear death & 'shut down' when forced to submit either. It depends how/why it's done, etc. I have seen so many people that wouldn't have a clue of the difference though.

And yes, I think it's more about 'oblivion' due to adrenaline & endorphins, mental shut down... & testosterone when horses are really under attack(or believe they are).


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Horse Poor said:


> IN MY HUMBLE OPINION
> 
> I think horses know the difference. They don't fear predators all the time…only when a predator acts like a predator. Zebras and lions share/live the same area, but the zebra knows by the actions of the lion when its hunting and when its doing other lion-y things. If ANYTHING chases a horse, it will run. It's not BEING a predator that matters to a horse, but rather what it is DOING. Horses aren't born knowing what a predator is…if they did they wouldn't care about sheep and pigs…but they do, until they become familiar with them. No horse has EVER seen a human attack and kill another horse…and when has a predator ever fed or taken care of a horse before it attacks and kills it?
> 
> *As far as the driven male, testosterone and adrenaline make a powerful pain killer.*





I wonder if I could get some of that for my aching back?!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think we've bred a lot of the natural fear of predators out of modern day horses because the bolder the horse the more easily its going to accept the world around it. I think I've read that the closest primitive ancestor they have - the Przewalski Horse is largely untrainable.
Horses that are born into an environment where the first thing they see after its mother is a human aren't going to see us as a predator unless we start treating them in a threatening aggressive way that they don't understand - our barn dogs are taught not to attack horses so they never regard them as a threat but I'm sure if a pack of wild dogs began to chase a herd the first instinct would still be to run
If you beat an animal into submission I'm sure its going to shut down and retreat into itself to mentally escape in much the same way that abused children do


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In many ways I agree with Jaydee but instinct will prevail! 

I have said before when horses would not load into the horsebox, the three ponies would usually get to the bottom of the ramp and trot up with no problem but, the first nearly trampled his girl owner when he swung around at the top of the ramp and charged back down. 
It turned out that a lion had been carted in the wagon and they could smell that. None of those horses had ever seen a lion but, they knew that it was a dangerous scent for them. 

Another time I had a TB mare that was not going to be caught. She was charging about the field and no way was I going to be running after her. I call end my Border Collie and sent her after the mare. She eventually had her in a corner and when the mare struck out at the dog old Pye just jumped and grabbed her nose. The mare reared but the dog held fast. I got there and by this time the mare had her head down and was only to pleased to have her halter on. It was interesting to see because the dog knew better than to bite but the instinct to go for the nose was apparent. The mare, after initial rears shut down and was waiting for something else to happen. 
You see the big cats and wild dogs when attacking a large animal grab their nose. 

Instinct is still there!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> I think we've bred a lot of the natural fear of predators out of modern day horses because the bolder the horse the more easily its going to accept the world around it. I think I've read that the closest primitive ancestor they have - the Przewalski Horse is largely untrainable.


Agree with Fox again. I don't think for a minute that our (relatively, in the scheme of things) minute amount of breeding for certain traits has 'bred out' instinctive fear at all. But it's also obvious we've got as far as creating more 'sociable' animals. However I'm not sure about how innately socialisable(is that a word??) 'natural horses' may be anyway. For eg. in only a generation or few, many domestics-gone-feral, such as cats, dogs, deer, cattle, pigs, etc will 'revert' to the more necessary survival instincts & 'forget' their unhelpful domestic attitudes. So is it 'nature' or 'nurture' that plays the bigger part?

And as for training Przewalski horses, I do believe the exact same thing has been said of many wild animals, including zebras, wild ***, older feral horses. I think evidence weighs to the contrary. ...Tho I've never personally seen a domestic Przewalski, but the ones at the zoo... & giraffes, etc, are pretty keen on the keepers.



> Horses that are born into an environment where the first thing they see after its mother is a human aren't going to see us as a predator unless we start treating them in a threatening aggressive way


But that's the whole point IMO. In so many ways, many people do treat horses 'aggressively', regardless of whether they intend it. For eg. certain approaches to punishment, 'round penning', throwing a horse, even more general type handling can be(not always, by any means of course) confrontational, confusing & terrifying, which will, IMO tend to cause a horse to 'forget' their domesticity & either 'shut down' or react instinctively in fear & self preservation - fight or flight.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Have you ever watched a cat play with a mouse? I watched one tease it, no claws, across the lawn. Mouse would run, cat would stop it with a gentle paw, over and over until it got to the driveway near where I was sitting. Cat gently bunted the mouse and the mouse was dead. I waited, yup, definitely dead. At no time did the cat hurt the mouse. So what happened? The stress was so high everything shut down? Is this what happens when an animal is attacked, not for sex but food? It's been a long cold winter.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

It can be said that animals die of fright but, the stress utilises all the calcium and they soon die from the lack of it.

When a dog was going out and killing our sheep I found seven dead from where the dog had torn out their throats but, more were dead from the stress of being chased. 

Animals do not look on death in the same way as humans do. They are far more accepting of it. Having had many dogs, if I have had one euthanised then the others will sniff at them and that is it. They do not seem to miss their past friend and move on easily. Perhaps because I accept it and do not go to pieces when they go.


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## Alexandra V (Jul 6, 2013)

Just on the point of having bred fear out of horses, this is entirely accurate. Not just with horses but any domestic animal. It has actually been found that there is a gene associated with an animal's ability to be domesticated, which is why we can go out and catch a wild mustang that has never met a person in its life and make a rideable horse of it. Also similarly to how you can take a dog that has lived in a feral colony for its whole life and bring it into a domestic situation and have it turn out like any other dog over time. 

Some animals do not have that gene and so are not exactly able to be tamed. That's why there aren't more people riding zebras (for example). 

I have seen many animals "shut down" in the face of death, and not just prey animals. I'm pretty sure it's just a natural thing, that when an animal knows it's not going to make it, it just gives up trying. BUT that's not to say that that is the same thing as when an animal "shuts down" in response to domination. 

In the context of laying horses down, and them letting out that big sigh - the way I see it, that is the horse accepting that he has no other choice but to give in to lying down and has no choice but to bend to your will. Yes they are fearful at first because that is a very vulnerable position for them to be in, but through being forced into that position and being shown that nothing bad happened to them, it helps to build their trust in the handler. It shows them that if you ask for something, it won't hurt them - even if it's scary to them at first. 

That's just how I see it anyways. The horses know that we aren't going to kill them for the most part, unless we act like predators as was already said. The mare I lease would let me rest my head on hers, put my hands all over her, no problems. But when I get mad and wave my arms, make loud noises or run at her, those are predatory things to do and she does get scared. But as soon as I stop, she stops being scared. They recognize the situation, not the animal so much.


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## Paradise (Jun 28, 2012)

Subscribing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION

We can train a horse because he's a horse. We don't train cows, pigs, goats or sheep the way we do horses and all are prey. We use the horse's instincts - things he already does naturally - to train them. Twirl a rope, the horse moves…not from you or the rope, but from the motion you are creating with the rope…stop twirling the rope, the horse stops…you have just controlled it's movement by using it's instincts in your favor. You don't have to whack him with the rope to teach him to move…he moves because it's in his nature to do so.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I_ have seen many animals "shut down" in the face of death,_ This is what I was referring to. I'd find it hard to believe that nature would create a prey animal then have it suffer every bit of pain until it's heart finally stops.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> I wonder if I could get some of that for my aching back?!


 You probably could, tinyliny, but then there would be no living with you.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I think there are a few reasons a horse will shut down mentally. 

1) Impending death. They have fought and lost, so they shut down and surrender to death, not just violent death, but other forms too. I'm sure many people have seen a horse where the 'light has gone out' in their eyes. They've shut down, and given up.
2) They cant deal with the stress mentally, so they shut down temporarily. They no longer use the thinking side of the brain. Usually they have been pushed too far too fast, or badly traumatized with something, so they cant deal with it. My mare for example, with her feet. She had likely been man handled and potentially flipped on one of those cattle tables to shoe her. if a shoe went any where near her she flipped a switch. My normally trusting, well behaved mare lost it. She would have killed anyone in her way, or even her self, just to get away. At the time she badly needed her shoes removed, so we laid her down. Although many people would have disagreed with the method, it allowed her to come to the realization that she was not being hurt by us, and if she just stood quietly and didn't fight us it would all turn out ok. She now happily stands to be shod.


related, when a horse is forced to surrender to a situation. I think its similar, but not the same, because I believe the horse is still learning and thinking. For example, throwing a horse, tying a horse fast, teaching a horse not to fight the rope. They fight, then surrender. I think when a horse is truly shut down they are not learning anything.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

The example that saddlebag gave about the mouse and the cat: I would think that the poor little mousie just had a heart attack. The stress was too much, and he truly died of fright.

As for horses, I have never personally experienced this. This is a very interesting thread! Subbing.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

IMHO…

I think we've all known/heard of horses who laid down on their owners while being ridden and I knew a puller who would dog sit and then flop over on its side (laying down) when it couldn't break the line while tied. So, to me anyway, its not the physical laying down that affects a horse, but rather who decides it will happen. When a horse 'gives up' 'gives in' 'surrenders' etc., he's mentally open to a different way of thinking. Kind of like pushing a mental 'reset button'. That's not a bad thing. A horse that constantly fights or is afraid of what MIGHT happen is horse under a great deal of needless stress. Laying it down not only takes the horse's options away, but also takes the stress away, leaving a calmer more willing horse.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Horse Poor said:


> IN MY HUMBLE OPINION
> 
> We can train a horse because he's a horse. We don't train cows, pigs, goats or sheep the way we do horses and all are prey.



Not necessarily so! Pigs have been proven to be far more logically intelligent than dogs or chimps. They are very trainable! Cattle were used much as horses were, pulling ploughs and wagons. They were also milked as well as eaten. Cattle, when handled can be as well mannered as a trained horse. As for sheep, well, I do admit they are born with only three brain cells, one for eating, one for escaping and the other for dying! They can be trained, I had a ewe lamb, very premature that grew up in the house, my dog suckled her and, I did have her house trained to newspaper. I loved her dearly but she was a pain as she would leave the flock and come to the house every chance she had often bringing her friends with her. 

Horses and dogs were in closer contact with humans than most others, elephants can be domesticated and trained, cheetahs have also been used for hunting, lions have also been domesticated and zebras too. Non of these can ever be totally trustworthy but they have been to some extent, domesticated.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

…never said they weren't trainable…I said we don't train them the WAY we train horses.


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