# What do you think of this horse and rider?



## tinyliny

That looks like a very unhappy horse and a very uncomfortable ride. What are they thinkin? Argh! The horse looks miserabel with her hauling on his mouth and bumping inthe saddle.


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## crimsonsky

what exactly is the point of this ride? i mean... the horse isn't learning anything other than "this sucks" and the girl (i assume it's a girl) doesn't look like she's trying to help the horse in anyway.


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## ErikaLynn

I think the horse is cute and the rider is floppy.


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## bubba13

So you think the "flopping" is hurting the horse's back? Do you think its mouth is hurt from the bit? What about the horse's gait?


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## Speed Racer

Is this you and your horse? If not, you're not allowed to ask for a critique. Weren't you already told by a mod not to post videos of other people for critiques?


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## NdAppy

SR I think this is the exact thread that went poof yesterday, that it was put back up. So apparently it is OK with the mods.


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## Speed Racer

If it's the OP, then I have no quarrel with it.

I just find it rather disingenuous of them to be asking the question without saying it's themselves. :?


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## NdAppy

*shrugs* Sometimes you get more answers if you don't say who it is. Some people will be more blunt rather then tippytoe around a subject.


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## Alwaysbehind

NdAppy said:


> *shrugs* Sometimes you get more answers if you don't say who it is. Some people will be more blunt rather then tippytoe around a subject.


The point is, this forum has a policy against posting videos just for the sake of bashing them.


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## NdAppy

I know that it does. How do you know that this is what this poster was intending or if they just wanted honest opinions without clouding it by say who was or wasn't riding?


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## equiniphile

Unless this is you or your horse, _you are not allowed to post this here. _Bashing other people is of no benefit to you or other posters. If you have an honest question, ask it, but do not mention names or links to riding just to be bashed.


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## JustDressageIt

Speed Racer said:


> Is this you and your horse? If not, you're not allowed to ask for a critique. Weren't you already told by a mod not to post videos of other people for critiques?


My thoughts exactly. This thread was created to stir the pot, in my opinion. 
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/please-only-request-critique-yourself-your-2758/


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## NdAppy

How do any of you know that this isn't the OP in the video? 

I hate to say it, but everyone is jumping to conclusions about who is or isn't in the video. Automatically assuming that the op is posting about someone else isn't the "nice" thing to do.


All the op asked is what everyone thought of the horse and rider. It could very well be themselves in it. Obviously the mods must know something if they put this thread back up after taking it down yesterday. Why not give you opinions on the video instead of on whether not the the op is or isn't post a video of them-self?


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## vikki92

ndappy said:


> how do any of you know that this isn't the op in the video?
> 
> I hate to say it, but everyone is jumping to conclusions about who is or isn't in the video. Automatically assuming that the op is posting about someone else isn't the "nice" thing to do.
> 
> 
> All the op asked is what everyone thought of the horse and rider. It could very well be themselves in it. Obviously the mods must know something if they put this thread back up after taking it down yesterday. Why not give you opinions on the video instead of on whether not the the op is or isn't post a video of them-self?


agreed!!


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## bubba13

If I say that no forum rules are being broken here, does that answer any questions?

And speaking of answering questions, can we get back to the OP?


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## AlexS

It's her horse, search her previous posts there are videos of her barrel racing.


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## JustDressageIt

The horse, to me, looks very uncomfortable, and is just shuffling his feet to try and please his rider, who is very handsy with unclear seat and leg aids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Katesrider011

JustDressageIt said:


> The horse, to me, looks very uncomfortable, and is just shuffling his feet to try and please his rider, who is very handsy with unclear seat and leg aids.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Those were my thoughts exactly


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## apachiedragon

Agreed. The horse does not look happy at all. The head to the sky and the gaping mouth are not signs of comfort. 

What concerns me more is that this was posted on the youtube description.


> She's had quite the saga with repeated soundness issues (torn tendons and ligaments) in the past,


If the horse has history of lameness and injury, why would it be ridden in this way? NOT a smart move by the rider.


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## Amlalriiee

I'd guess by the clarifying questions that the OP asked, that they did NOT post this to bash it...I think they want to learn from it. I'm sure there's a reason the Mods approved it so it wouldn't be nice of us to simply bash the OP. It's always best not to jump to conclusions 

Anyway--I agree that the horse looks uncomfortable/anxious...something just isn't right there. She seems to be throwing her head up, the video is not clear enough to tell if that is rider error or not. What I do see of the rider is that she is slightly off-balance, leaning her upper body over too far backward, which pulls her legs forward. Her hands seemed to be flopping too, but that could directly result from her butt bouncing. It does look to be uncomfortable, I would think they could go back to the basics a little bit and really get the balance and get the horse to round up instead of hollowing out. When a horse's head is up like that it will make them more bouncy (I know...my mare does it)


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## bubba13

Hmmmm....how is riding "in this way" putting the horse at risk for lameness? It's a straight-line track of movement for a reason. Any sort of turns are right out. So is running. But she has to be gotten back in shape to strengthen and re-order her tendon fibers, as per vet's orders. And nothing is better for that than long-trotting. The only problem is that instead of trotting, she tries to slip into a gait (something she's done her whole life, long before the injury).

More later....


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## bsms

From the YouTube description:

"OK, so that's a bit of an exaggeration. But this girl can TROT. No, I don't normally ride her like this. I usually post the trot and hold her in some form of frame. But this is good exercise, and once in a while it's fun to let her kick out. She wasn't even showing off for the camera, as sometimes she can rock it much harder than this. Check out that flailing pastern action.

"Bones" is a 1D barrel horse in her day job, and she can be a bit high strung and frankly "crazy," despite a good foundation in riding training. Her speed in the arena makes up for her nuttiness in the pasture, though I do expect respect from her and, despite appearances, always have complete control. She's had quite the saga with repeated soundness issues (torn tendons and ligaments) in the past, and is now hopefully getting back in shape to start barrel racing again in the spring. View my other videos for her old barrel runs and rehabilitation journey."

You asked for an opinion, so here's mine: Grow up! This isn't a video to boast about.


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## NdAppy

bsms where are you getting that she is boasting? I'm not seeing that.


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## Amlalriiee

bsms: we all get older at the same rate, we can't just "grow up" 
Seriously, though...bashing someone doesn't do any good, constructive criticism, and offering a solution to the problem however could completely change things around. I'm not trying to start an argument, but I don't think one should "bash" someone when they could provide a learning experience instead. Just something to think about, take it or leave it.


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## bwilliam777

Well, the horse is unsteady in the gate, the martingale is useless, the neck has no crest and from looking at this video I would say that is primarily because of the rider pounding on his back and having very uneducated hands.


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## Lonestar22

I see a frustrated horse who wants to canter but is being held back. In some spots her hind in moves into a canter while her front end stays in a trot. 

I don't think that the rider is doing this horse much good.


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## bsms

I think the YouTube description makes it obvious the OP thinks this is admirable behavior from the horse and rider. I think it is very obvious it is not. I don't know how anyone can watch the horse and think the horse is content with being ridden like this.

I don't think the OP needs to be told she is leaning back, or bouncing, or pulling on the reins. I think this post:



bubba13 said:


> So you think the "flopping" is hurting the horse's back? Do you think its mouth is hurt from the bit? What about the horse's gait?


indicates we're supposed to admire the horse's gait.

Also, the YouTube has this comment from the person who posted it on YouTube:

"Look, I appreciate your concern, but wish you would watch a little closer and read﻿ the video description before commenting. There's no abuse, no pain/harm to the horse, and only a few minutes of goofing-off bad riding to this. The point? Fun for the rider and horse, and good exercise."

Sorry, but I'm not sympathetic. I see bad riding making a horse unhappy, and critiquing the leaning back won't help. The riding seems to be intentional, with no regard for the horse's response other than "sometimes she can rock it much harder than this. Check out that flailing pastern action."

The title of the thread is, "*What do you think of this horse and rider?"*

I think the horse is unhappy and the rider is causing it.


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## natisha

Lonestar22 said:


> I see a frustrated horse who wants to canter but is being held back. In some spots her hind in moves into a canter while her front end stays in a trot.
> 
> I don't think that the rider is doing this horse much good.


That's what I see too. The horse doesn't know what is wanted. If someone wants to ride like that then get a gaited horse, not a QH


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## Amlalriiee

Like I said, take it or leave it. All I'm saying is that ripping someone apart puts them on the defense, and doesn't give them any opportunity to seek advice or ask questions. It takes a lot of courage to post something publicly for criticism, and none of us start out as perfect riders right? I admire my horse, too and would love to hear how her gaits are viewed by others. I'm not saying this poster or the rider are awesome or correct on all counts, I'm just suggesting we be considerate.

I don't think of this as "behavior"...she's not a professional rider behaving badly, it's just a lack of experience and need of advice. I digress, but better someone to ask for help and right the situation, than be chased off and make things up by their own devices, yes?


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## Lonannuniel

Amlalriiee said:


> Like I said, take it or leave it. All I'm saying is that ripping someone apart puts them on the defense, and doesn't give them any opportunity to seek advice or ask questions. It takes a lot of courage to post something publicly for criticism, and none of us start out as perfect riders right? I admire my horse, too and would love to hear how her gaits are viewed by others. I'm not saying this poster or the rider are awesome or correct on all counts, I'm just suggesting we be considerate.
> 
> I don't think of this as "behavior"...she's not a professional rider behaving badly, it's just a lack of experience and need of advice. I digress, but better someone to ask for help and right the situation, than be chased off and make things up by their own devices, yes?


I agree with you. However, in this case, based purely on the original post, it doesn't sound like she wanted advice on how to improve. There was no 'advice wanted' no 'how can i improve', etc. We're all doing what she asked, telling her what we think of the horse and rider. and as far as that goes, I agree with what everyone else is saying, they look uncomfortable.


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## bubba13

I going to reply to posts one at a time, so bear with me. In the mean time, if anyone is wondering what this horse would look like held in a trot with a snaffle bit and no tie-down, here you go (video is from last year, but it was my first time back on her after nearly a year off following her first injury):





 
And a video clearly showing that she only tosses her head, pins her ears, and acts ****ed off when she's being ridden, as she's a sweet and loveable happy camper the rest of the time (  ):





 
And a video of her at her day job:





 
And a video, pulled randomly from YouTube, showing how true speed racking horses (which obviously my horse is not) are ridden:


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## Dressage10135

bubba13 said:


> I going to reply to posts one at a time, so bear with me. In the mean time, if anyone is wondering what this horse would look like held in a trot with a snaffle bit and no tie-down, here you go (video is from last year, but it was my first time back on her after nearly a year off following her first injury):
> 
> 
> 
> *And a video clearly showing that she only tosses her head, pins her ears, and acts ****ed off when she's being ridden, as she's a sweet and loveable happy camper the rest of the time (  ):*


Maybe if you got out of her face she would be sweet and lovable under saddle as well.


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## NdAppy

Dressage did you even watch the free in the pasture video? Doesn't seem like it.


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## Dressage10135

I did. Which is exactly why I think she would be much happier with a rider who has softer hands.


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## bubba13

tinyliny said:


> That looks like a very unhappy horse and a very uncomfortable ride. What are they thinkin? Argh! The horse looks miserabel with her hauling on his mouth and bumping inthe saddle.


Watch the video again. There is no "hauling" of the mouth going on. Not infrequently, in fact, there is some slack in the rein, and the rest of the time there is light contact--just enough the hold the horse in the gait and prevent a departure to the lope. Any "bracing" that is going on by the horse is purely her fighting against herself, not the bit. Is her headset poor? Absolutely. In this case, it's helping her to stay in gait, so while it looks ugly, it's functional to her motion. Yes, it's a bad habit, but I'm making no effort to restrict her motion and pull her into a frame of collection. 



crimsonsky said:


> what exactly is the point of this ride? i mean... the horse isn't learning anything other than "this sucks" and the girl (i assume it's a girl) doesn't look like she's trying to help the horse in anyway.


The horse is being allowed to do whatever she wants, within reason. She wants to go fast; I say "fine, but we'll stay below a lope." So I hold her there and stay out of her way. At no point do I kick or encourage her to move faster--I just let her be, and suck back to put my weight more towards her rear. This allows her to sink down behind and get maximum front-end motion, while limiting the bounciness of the ride. While it may look ugly, it serves the purpose of good exercise for the horse.



ErikaLynn said:


> I think the horse is cute and the rider is floppy.


The "floppiness" is due to a lack of desire to post this gait, as it is quite fast and rather smooth. While it is true that a sitting rider will always put more strain on a horse's back than a posting rider of equal skill and balance, my knees are being used for considerable shock absorption. By extending them forward and leaning back, I am able to minimize my own movements, and then place only minimal strain on the horse's back. Were I sitting forward in the saddle with knees bent at a more "proper" angle, I'd be flailing up and down and giving her spine the jackhammer treatment.


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## Amlalriiee

Lona: I do agree they look uncomfortable, was just responding to the fact that some people said so in what I saw as a harsher way than necessary.

OP: That next video you posted IS much better....I do think you need to work on your hands. Understandably, you look afraid to give any slack in your reins, and in turn the horse becomes more agitated. Instead of pulling back steadily, use small give and takes (small "take" of rein, release). If he is not listening, stop him, back up, and try again. OR one-rein stop and try again...whatever works for him. As is it looks like he wants to take off full-throttle, which makes you hold him, which agitates him more. What you need to do is teach him is to give and relax so that you can also give and relax. It will take a lot of time, but it's worth the effort. I'm guessing he's trigger happy because of barrel racing? Either way, that is something that jumps out at me in this video. The rider looks much more balanced and less floppy/bouncy in the saddle though in this second video than in the first. I'd say that slowing things down more often would make for a much more well-rounded, trustworthy horse. Best of luck


ETA: Just saw your last post and realized that you say you have light contact. It does not LOOK like light contact, but I do understand that could be the horse throwing his head up...so working on getting your horse's headset lower is KEY. Also, be careful with that high headset...got my teeth knocked out that way this year.


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## bubba13

JustDressageIt said:


> The horse, to me, looks very uncomfortable, and is just shuffling his feet to try and please his rider, who is very handsy with unclear seat and leg aids.


No seat or leg aids are being applied, clear or otherwise. As stated previously, I'm simply staying out of her way. And also as posted previously, there's no jerking and tearing of the mouth going on--just steady contact with occasional breaks. She chose her gait.



Katesrider011 said:


> Those were my thoughts exactly


No one has yet clarified what is meant by an "uncomfortable" horse. That word has been tossed around a whole bunch, but it's pretty vague.



apachiedragon said:


> Agreed. The horse does not look happy at all. The head to the sky and the gaping mouth are not signs of comfort.
> 
> What concerns me more is that this was posted on the youtube description.
> If the horse has history of lameness and injury, why would it be ridden in this way? NOT a smart move by the rider.


I addressed the latter comment earlier, asking how this is dangerous for her tendons. Where is her mouth gaping; at what point? No, it remains calmly closed the entire time. She does toss her head. But this is never in response or reaction to hand cues or "tearing" on the face, but rather whenever she decides she wants to go faster and tries to see if I'll let her. No effort is being made to collect her head, so she switches to default mode, since that is also what best allows her to maintain this gait. You'll see the exact same head movement in the video at liberty in the pasture.


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## bsms

bubba13 said:


> Watch the video again. There is no "hauling" of the mouth going on. Not infrequently, in fact, there is some slack in the rein, and the rest of the time there is light contact--just enough the hold the horse in the gait and prevent a departure to the lope...


Guess I have bad vision. Looks like rollkur in reverse, as though you are trying to get the nose be the highest point of the horse's body. My Arabian mare has a high headset by nature, and wants to accelerate when excited, but the solution isn't to pull harder and bring her head up. If she won't respond to seat cues and light tugs, then it is time to stop her and reset.



bubba13 said:


> Any "bracing" that is going on by the horse is purely her fighting against herself, not the bit. Is her headset poor? Absolutely. In this case, it's helping her to stay in gait, so while it looks ugly, it's functional to her motion. Yes, it's a bad habit, but I'm making no effort to restrict her motion and pull her into a frame of collection.


If she is fighting like that, it is time to go back to the basics. Lunge work maybe...but she doesn't do it when you are not on her back. That ought to be a huge hint! I let my horses determine their own head level, but with 1.75 Arabians in 2.00 horses, they do NOT put their heads up like that. Ever.



bubba13 said:


> ...I just let her be, and suck back to put my weight more towards her rear. This allows her to sink down behind and get maximum front-end motion, while limiting the bounciness of the ride. While it may look ugly, it serves the purpose of good exercise for the horse.
> 
> The "floppiness" is due to a lack of desire to post this gait, as it is quite fast and rather smooth. While it is true that a sitting rider will always put more strain on a horse's back than a posting rider of equal skill and balance, my knees are being used for considerable shock absorption. By extending them forward and leaning back, I am able to minimize my own movements, and then place only minimal strain on the horse's back. Were I sitting forward in the saddle with knees bent at a more "proper" angle, I'd be flailing up and down and giving her spine the jackhammer treatment.


Time to learn to sit the trot, or don't do it at all. Your style is putting far more strain on the back, and the knees are not used for shock absorption in sitting the trot. Get your legs under you and nearly vertical, and let your thighs absorb some of the shock, and the back/tummy absorb the rest. For me, success at sitting the trot comes with longer stirrups and vertical posture. Straight back, legs long, and the weight of my legs pulling me into the saddle. I usually keep my feet a bit forward, with the back of my heel at my belt buckle.


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## bubba13

Amlalriiee said:


> I'd guess by the clarifying questions that the OP asked, that they did NOT post this to bash it...I think they want to learn from it. I'm sure there's a reason the Mods approved it so it wouldn't be nice of us to simply bash the OP. It's always best not to jump to conclusions
> 
> Anyway--I agree that the horse looks uncomfortable/anxious...something just isn't right there. She seems to be throwing her head up, the video is not clear enough to tell if that is rider error or not. What I do see of the rider is that she is slightly off-balance, leaning her upper body over too far backward, which pulls her legs forward. Her hands seemed to be flopping too, but that could directly result from her butt bouncing. It does look to be uncomfortable, I would think they could go back to the basics a little bit and really get the balance and get the horse to round up instead of hollowing out. When a horse's head is up like that it will make them more bouncy (I know...my mare does it)


Anxious, not exactly, but incredibly go-y, yes. She's a timed event horse, and a rather high-strung one, at that. She is not and never will be a good trail horse; she does not have a calm temperament, on the ground or under saddle. It's all about speed speed speed, and getting her to focus and slow down is a constant battle that I am more than willing to fight for the sake of both of our sanity. Except in the case of this two-minute video, that is, when I thought it would be entertaining to let 'er rip. What people seem to be interpreting as unhappiness is indeed likely anger on her part--but anger only that she is not being allowed to run full-out and is instead confined to a half-trot. And anger that she is a hormonal mare who pins her ears at the farrier because he dares to ask her for her foot and who, despite considerable desensitation and careful, gentle handling, still rears at the sight of a vet with a needle.

The flopping hand is not the hand that is holding the reins. The leaning back with legs forward was addressed in a prior post. 



bsms said:


> From the YouTube description:
> 
> "OK, so that's a bit of an exaggeration. But this girl can TROT. No, I don't normally ride her like this. I usually post the trot and hold her in some form of frame. But this is good exercise, and once in a while it's fun to let her kick out. She wasn't even showing off for the camera, as sometimes she can rock it much harder than this. Check out that flailing pastern action.
> 
> "Bones" is a 1D barrel horse in her day job, and she can be a bit high strung and frankly "crazy," despite a good foundation in riding training. Her speed in the arena makes up for her nuttiness in the pasture, though I do expect respect from her and, despite appearances, always have complete control. She's had quite the saga with repeated soundness issues (torn tendons and ligaments) in the past, and is now hopefully getting back in shape to start barrel racing again in the spring. View my other videos for her old barrel runs and rehabilitation journey."
> 
> You asked for an opinion, so here's mine: Grow up! This isn't a video to boast about.


And exactly how you got boasting out of the video description is beyond me. I get "admitting that the riding is rather suboptimal but justifying it because it was a short-term thing, explaining it as such, and laughing about the hilarity of the Quarter Horse who thinks she's gaited."



bwilliam777 said:


> Well, the horse is unsteady in the gate, the martingale is useless, the neck has no crest and from looking at this video I would say that is primarily because of the rider pounding on his back and having very uneducated hands.


There's no martingale on the horse. There is, however, a cable tie-down. Before people freak out at the concept of a cable tie-down and its extreme severity, let me clarify that the noseband is wrapped in thick SealTex rubber for considerable cushioning, and the tie-down strap is very long. So long, in fact, that she is able to get her head up practically to a horizontal level without ever engaging the tie-down. I'm not sure she ever hits it, or even can hit it. If it was tight, she would not be physically able to lift her head that high.

Of course the horse is unsteady at the gait. She's a Quarter Horse and she doesn't know WTH she's doing. I thought she was just trotting with super speed and animation until I watched the video myself and saw that she did not have diagonal movement. It's clearly some form of gait. Whether a real one or a made-up-on-the-spot one, I don't know, but no one with expertise in that matter seems keen on answering.

I'm quite glad her neck has no crest. Obesity is a serious problem in horses.

Already addressed the back-pounding and uneducated hands issues....



Lonestar22 said:


> I see a frustrated horse who wants to canter but is being held back. In some spots her hind in moves into a canter while her front end stays in a trot.
> 
> I don't think that the rider is doing this horse much good.


Yep to both parts. At least I think so. And certainly not in this case, for the latter, though I'd argue there's not much harm being done, either.



bsms said:


> I think the YouTube description makes it obvious the OP thinks this is admirable behavior from the horse and rider. I think it is very obvious it is not. I don't know how anyone can watch the horse and think the horse is content with being ridden like this.
> 
> I don't think the OP needs to be told she is leaning back, or bouncing, or pulling on the reins. I think this post:
> 
> 
> 
> indicates we're supposed to admire the horse's gait.
> 
> Also, the YouTube has this comment from the person who posted it on YouTube:
> 
> "Look, I appreciate your concern, but wish you would watch a little closer and read﻿ the video description before commenting. There's no abuse, no pain/harm to the horse, and only a few minutes of goofing-off bad riding to this. The point? Fun for the rider and horse, and good exercise."
> 
> Sorry, but I'm not sympathetic. I see bad riding making a horse unhappy, and critiquing the leaning back won't help. The riding seems to be intentional, with no regard for the horse's response other than "sometimes she can rock it much harder than this. Check out that flailing pastern action."
> 
> The title of the thread is, "*What do you think of this horse and rider?"*
> 
> I think the horse is unhappy and the rider is causing it.


Nope, still not bragging. Still laughing about my wannabe-TWH, though.



natisha said:


> That's what I see too. The horse doesn't know what is wanted. If someone wants to ride like that then get a gaited horse, not a QH


Don't particularly want to ride that, but you've got to play the deck you've been dealt. And I've, apparently, been dealt a badly-gaited barrel racing Quarter Horse. She knows what is wanted: exercise is a straight line. She knows what she wants: run run run run run. So we compromise.


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## justjump

Honestly, this upsets me. The poor horse has its head up in the air unnaturally, and is probably causing tension to it's back. The rider looks like she is going to fall off, considering her legs are flopping all over the place. The horse is very cute and could have a nice movement if it was ridden properly. I've been riding quarter horses my entire life and I have never seen someone ride one like that.. It just looks unnatural to the breed (in my opinion) and almost looks painful...


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## Haylee

I think that is a very sad and irritated horse... :*(


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## AlexS

bubba13 said:


> Don't particularly want to ride that, but you've got to play the deck you've been dealt. And I've, apparently, been dealt a badly-gaited barrel racing Quarter Horse. She knows what is wanted: exercise is a straight line. She knows what she wants: run run run run run. So we compromise.


Can you explain why you don't see this in every hot OTTB then?


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## bubba13

Lonannuniel said:


> I agree with you. However, in this case, based purely on the original post, it doesn't sound like she wanted advice on how to improve. There was no 'advice wanted' no 'how can i improve', etc. We're all doing what she asked, telling her what we think of the horse and rider. and as far as that goes, I agree with what everyone else is saying, they look uncomfortable.


Uncomfortable HOW?



Dressage10135 said:


> Maybe if you got out of her face she would be sweet and lovable under saddle as well.


Doubt it, as I have. And as I'm not in her face.



Dressage10135 said:


> I did. Which is exactly why I think she would be much happier with a rider who has softer hands.


Think that my having softer hands would translate to her no longer pinning her ears and tossing her head in the pasture?



Amlalriiee said:


> Lona: I do agree they look uncomfortable, was just responding to the fact that some people said so in what I saw as a harsher way than necessary.
> 
> OP: That next video you posted IS much better....I do think you need to work on your hands. Understandably, you look afraid to give any slack in your reins, and in turn the horse becomes more agitated. Instead of pulling back steadily, use small give and takes (small "take" of rein, release). If he is not listening, stop him, back up, and try again. OR one-rein stop and try again...whatever works for him. As is it looks like he wants to take off full-throttle, which makes you hold him, which agitates him more. What you need to do is teach him is to give and relax so that you can also give and relax. It will take a lot of time, but it's worth the effort. I'm guessing he's trigger happy because of barrel racing? Either way, that is something that jumps out at me in this video. The rider looks much more balanced and less floppy/bouncy in the saddle though in this second video than in the first. I'd say that slowing things down more often would make for a much more well-rounded, trustworthy horse. Best of luck
> 
> 
> ETA: Just saw your last post and realized that you say you have light contact. It does not LOOK like light contact, but I do understand that could be the horse throwing his head up...so working on getting your horse's headset lower is KEY. Also, be careful with that high headset...got my teeth knocked out that way this year.


I think it is the optical illusion of the abnormally high head carriage. Trust me, if I was hauling back on her face, she'd be doing her best wet-dog-shaking-off-the-water impression. She's a side-to-side head-tosser of the highest order when she objects to something I'm doing with the reins.

I know it's not fair of me to post such a horrible-appearing video and then attempt to explain my way out of the situation when no one can believe me. What was I aiming for with this thread? To hear unbiased input. To see how quickly people would jump to a conclusion and judge. To see if people would bother to read a video description or look at other videos. To see if anyone could determine what gait, exactly, she is doing. (Apparently no one can.)

No one has yet to give any definitive proof that the horse is unhappy, uncomfortable, or being harmed in any way. There's been a lot of talk about the ridiculousness of the rider, yet the bouncing has been explained as conducive the horse's motion that not harmful to the back, and the hands have been explained as far less harsh than they appear. Which doesn't leave much besides improper form, which, of course, is undeniable. But harmful? Well, that's extremely debatable.

I can never toss full slack in the horse's reins. She will go off like a flash. But I can ride her in very light contact and tighten when needed and then immediately release, which is what I do. It may not appear that way from the video, but I assure you that that is the case.

She does not ever "give and relax." She will give and submit to my lightly holding her. She is not the sort of horse who can be ridden on a truly slack rein, as she has always required contact, both for control and for her own mental security. Part of that is her inborn temperament. Part is the sport of barrel racing, which unfortunately by its nature makes horse's extremely hot. If you watched the video, you can see she is quite good at what she does. Ideally she *should* ride well as a trail horse and still go on to have good barrel runs, but is that realistic? Not without negatively affecting her speed event runs, I would hazard a guess. I cut her slack in the "proper riding" department because she is a great competitor where it matters. Were she not a good barrel horse, I would insist on her riding slowly and properly. As it is, I tolerate the bad behavior as I know she can't help her personality.



bsms said:


> Guess I have bad vision. Looks like rollkur in reverse, as though you are trying to get the nose be the highest point of the horse's body. My Arabian mare has a high headset by nature, and wants to accelerate when excited, but the solution isn't to pull harder and bring her head up. If she won't respond to seat cues and light tugs, then it is time to stop her and reset.
> 
> 
> 
> If she is fighting like that, it is time to go back to the basics. Lunge work maybe...but she doesn't do it when you are not on her back. That ought to be a huge hint! I let my horses determine their own head level, but with 1.75 Arabians in 2.00 horses, they do NOT put their heads up like that. Ever.
> 
> 
> 
> Time to learn to sit the trot, or don't do it at all. Your style is putting far more strain on the back, and the knees are not used for shock absorption in sitting the trot. Get your legs under you and nearly vertical, and let your thighs absorb some of the shock, and the back/tummy absorb the rest. For me, success at sitting the trot comes with longer stirrups and vertical posture. Straight back, legs long, and the weight of my legs pulling me into the saddle. I usually keep my feet a bit forward, with the back of my heel at my belt buckle.


Yes, I can sit the trot. I'm not attempting to sit the trot there. She's not trotting--she's doing a yet-undetermined gait. My horses are quite rough, though, so I almost always post, regardless of speed.

I'm not trying to pull her head up. I'm allowing her to raise her head in the way that is most comfortable for her at that gait. I'm imitating the (often bad) riding of backyard speed racking Standardbreds and TWH's. It's for comic effect as well as to allow her to best slip into her "gait," and it is not harming her in any way (I've said that I know more strain is being placed on the back that if I were posting, but I do my best to minimize that by leaning back, absorbing through the knees, and sitting on my butt to allow it to provide cushion).

She is not allowed to do longe work by veterinary order.

She is very responsive to leg and seat aids, neither of which are being applied in this video. She can be at a quick lope, urging me to allow her to run and flipping her head in frustration that I won't let her go, and all I have to say is a quiet "whoa" and release the reins, and she will slam on the brakes. She may look out of control and out of frame, but I assure you, she is very very tuned into my position in the saddle and is always waiting for a cue.


----------



## bubba13

justjump said:


> Honestly, this upsets me. The poor horse has its head up in the air unnaturally, and is probably causing tension to it's back. The rider looks like she is going to fall off, considering her legs are flopping all over the place. The horse is very cute and could have a nice movement if it was ridden properly. I've been riding quarter horses my entire life and I have never seen someone ride one like that.. It just looks unnatural to the breed (in my opinion) and almost looks painful...


It is unnatural to the breed. So is the gait. Probably not desirable. Definitely not painful. Also not in any danger of falling off, and the leg-flopping has been explained multiple times.

Tension in the back? Probably. That's why I don't do it all the time, as explained in the video description. Head up in the air? Yeah. Badly. Not good. Helps her gait, though. And the other 99% of the time I ride her, with the exception of when we're barrel racing, I expect her to collect and ride in frame. And she, oddly enough, obliges.



Haylee said:


> I think that is a very sad and irritated horse... :*(


Oh yes, very sad. I caught her crying today....



AlexS said:


> Can you explain why you don't see this in every hot OTTB then?


Um, because they don't try to gait? And because their riders are specifically trying to keep them calm and collected and usually aiming them towards English disiplines where control is emphasized and headset is supposed to be low and collected, not towards barrel racing where speed is all-important and how you look is far less important than how quickly you go?


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## zurmdahl

Why did you ask for this critique? You're just fighting everything everyone is saying, when you ask someone to judge you simply based on one video you post which clearly shows a very confused and frustrated horse you can't expect people to nice and tell you how awesome it is. I just don't see the point in posting it just to pick fights with others.


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## Lonannuniel

bubba13 said:


> Uncomfortable HOW?


You look stiff, in both it looks like you are bracing against his movement. You two look lovely in the barrel racing videos, however, in the other 2 your horse doesn't look relaxed. 

The biggest thing that hits me is that it looks as if your arms are glued to your torso. Think of your arms sort of like rubber bands, they should have some softness in them, yet hold their place. To keep your elbows by your side, try rotating your shoulder blades back & down ( if that makes sense). 

The more resistance you give your horse, the more your horse will resist you. The best thing to do to calm a tense, anxious, etc. horse is to calm yourself, slow things down in your mind, go with the movement, and make changes slowly ( instead of yanking on the reins to slow down, go with the movement, slow him down over a distance, and keep it very mellow, if that makes sense), use your hands as a last resort, and keep your body relaxed. hope that helps =)


----------



## AlexS

bubba13 said:


> Um, because they don't try to gait? And because their riders are specifically trying to keep them calm and collected and usually aiming them towards English disiplines where control is emphasized and headset is supposed to be low and collected, not towards barrel racing where speed is all-important and how you look is far less important than how quickly you go?


Hang on a mo, no need to get snippy. I am a queen of English riding, I know nothing about barrel racing. Are you seriously saying that if you try harder to control and collect your horse that it will lose its spirit and be a dud barrel racer from there on?


----------



## justjump

bubba13 said:


> It is unnatural to the breed. So is the gait. Probably not desirable. Definitely not painful. Also not in any danger of falling off, and the leg-flopping has been explained multiple times.
> 
> Tension in the back? Probably. That's why I don't do it all the time, as explained in the video description. Head up in the air? Yeah. Badly. Not good. Helps her gait, though. And the other 99% of the time I ride her, with the exception of when we're barrel racing, I expect her to collect and ride in frame. And she, oddly enough, obliges.


I did not mean to offend you, and nor did I read the comments considering there are a lot of them. I know what it feels like to be attacked, and I apologize for making you feel that way. Forums on horses are *brutal*, and you can't expect to get nice, fluffy, comments when you post something that is, lets just say, "unnatural" or looks "not perfect". Once again, I apologize.


----------



## bubba13

zurmdahl said:


> Why did you ask for this critique? You're just fighting everything everyone is saying, when you ask someone to judge you simply based on one video you post which clearly shows a very confused and frustrated horse you can't expect people to nice and tell you how awesome it is. I just don't see the point in posting it just to pick fights with others.


I mentioned in an earlier reply why I started this thread. I am still waiting to hear if anyone has any thoughts on my horse's gait, but have yet to hear a reply of that nature. I don't expect people to say it's awesome. It's not. The horse is frustrated (due to my lack of allowing her to go full speed) but not confused. If I were posting to pick a fight, I would have been banned for spewing obscenities by now.

I've said it was unfair to just post the one video, so I shared several others for a fuller picture.



Lonannuniel said:


> You look stiff, in both it looks like you are bracing against his movement. You two look lovely in the barrel racing videos, however, in the other 2 your horse doesn't look relaxed.
> 
> The biggest thing that hits me is that it looks as if your arms are glued to your torso. Think of your arms sort of like rubber bands, they should have some softness in them, yet hold their place. To keep your elbows by your side, try rotating your shoulder blades back & down ( if that makes sense).
> 
> The more resistance you give your horse, the more your horse will resist you. The best thing to do to calm a tense, anxious, etc. horse is to calm yourself, slow things down in your mind, go with the movement, and make changes slowly ( instead of yanking on the reins to slow down, go with the movement, slow him down over a distance, and keep it very mellow, if that makes sense), use your hands as a last resort, and keep your body relaxed. hope that helps =)


Yes, there is bad riding in the gaiting video--or at least very bad riding for a Quarter Horse. I would argue that there is much better riding in the older trotting video I posted. Soft, understanding hands and soft body. As I stated previously, my horse is tuned into leg and seat cues. She has always resisted bridle pressure and held her head high. Unfortunately I do not have a video of a normal trail riding and excercise session with her, but it consists of walking, followed by straight-line trotting, then wide trotting circles, then wide loping circles. I hold my hands low and ride her in an Argentine snaffle. With squeezing-and-releasing of the reins, she will drop her head; with nudges from the calf and spur, she will round her body into frame and track correctly and quietly.

There is considerable bracing and stiffness in the gaiting video. Do you see the same in the trotting video, both of body and arms?


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## justjump

AlexS said:


> Hang on a mo, no need to get snippy. I am a queen of English riding, I know nothing about barrel racing. Are you seriously saying that if you try harder to control and collect your horse that it will lose its spirit and be a dud barrel racer from there on?


I don't really get it either. I know for my horse, that does hunters, I have to keep him collected and in the bridle so he extends and, since I swear he has A.D.D, to keep him focused. But I don't necessarily think that bracing and pulling will do anything.. Maybe keeping them in the bridle, possibly, but then again it all just depends on the horse.:wink:


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## myhorsesonador

OP you need a good trainer BIG TIME! Your riding is very sloppy you can wine and argue all you want but you ARE hurting your horse. Your lucky to have a horse that tolerates you, if I rode my horse like that she would have flatened me by now.


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## bubba13

AlexS said:


> Hang on a mo, no need to get snippy. I am a queen of English riding, I know nothing about barrel racing. Are you seriously saying that if you try harder to control and collect your horse that it will lose its spirit and be a dud barrel racer from there on?


Naw, not trying to be snippy and sorry if I offended, just trying to be succinct and didn't realize your intention, either. Barrel horses, unfortunately, have the somewhat-justified reputation of being "crazy." Ideally, they shouldn't be. But many of the good ones are. Have you ever watched a rodeo? There are some great YouTube clips of the NFR--the 2010 average champion is a relative of my gray mare. They're high strung and hot and frequently have high headsets. You should see the ghastly bits and tie-down devices some racers use, but I refuse to touch.

You can't be collected in the ring when you're running, though you have to have absolute control of the body. The thing is, if you really slow your horse down in the pasture and insist on a WP or HUS-like cadence, you're likely going to lose the forward momentum you need for a good racer. A good barrel horse is smarter than its jockey, anyway. Bones is sure 'nough smarter than me when it comes to running--I've got to trust her in the heat of the moment. I can force control over her in the pasture and make her a very unhappy horse, but she was bred and trained to run, and who am I to insist against that? I've helped to make her crazy in my quest for a good barrel horse--it would be unfair of me to now punish her for who she's become.

I insist on the things that are important: control, lateral movement, brakes, but I let her take care of the rest. Choose your battles.



justjump said:


> I did not mean to offend you, and nor did I read the comments considering there are a lot of them. I know what it feels like to be attacked, and I apologize for making you feel that way. Forums on horses are *brutal*, and you can't expect to get nice, fluffy, comments when you post something that is, lets just say, "unnatural" or looks "not perfect". Once again, I apologize.


No worries at all. Trust me.


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## justjump

If I was you, I'd just stop replying. I had a post like this, and I erased my original post, and stopped replying all together, because clearly, you won't get a nice post.:?


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## JustDressageIt

Bubba, why you are not willing to listen to the very knowledgable posters on the HF? 
You _are_ on her face, and you _are_ all over the saddle - period. The "compromise" is not good; you want to walk, the horse walks. Not "oh she wants to run, so I'll let her do this weird shuffle thing instead." No. Especially not on a horse recovering from injury. A horse recovering from injury such as you described needs to be brought back very slowly, and in a controlled manner.


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## bubba13

justjump said:


> I don't really get it either. I know for my horse, that does hunters, I have to keep him collected and in the bridle so he extends and, since I swear he has A.D.D, to keep him focused. But I don't necessarily think that bracing and pulling will do anything.. Maybe keeping them in the bridle, possibly, but then again it all just depends on the horse.:wink:


OK, maybe some communication problems here. The riding in the original video *is not good* for a barrel horse. Not desirable. Not something most barrel racers do. It was also temporary, which is why I posted the other videos for contrast. It was just intended to showcase my horse's odd gait and hot temperament. Bracing and pulling are not good. They are, however, slightly funny when coupled with a pace or a rack or whatever. *The majority of the time, I ride her with some form of collection, insisting on a lower headset and not tolerating that sort of bracing against the bridle. *No, I do not have a video readily available. Would it make people happier if I took one in the next few days, assuming I can find a videographer?

I do not, however, punish her for going fast at my chosen gait or having a higher-than-perfect headset, so long as it is considerably lower than the level in the original video. That is what I was trying to get at in my earlier reply to AlexS, and perhaps failing on. My bad, in that case.


----------



## Arksly

bubba13 said:


> Naw, not trying to be snippy and sorry if I offended, just trying to be succinct and didn't realize your intention, either. Barrel horses, unfortunately, have the somewhat-justified reputation of being "crazy." Ideally, they shouldn't be. But many of the good ones are. Have you ever watched a rodeo? There are some great YouTube clips of the NFR--the 2010 average champion is a relative of my gray mare. They're high strung and hot and frequently have high headsets. You should see the ghastly bits and tie-down devices some racers use, but I refuse to touch.
> 
> You can't be collected in the ring when you're running, though you have to have absolute control of the body. The thing is, if you really slow your horse down in the pasture and insist on a WP or HUS-like cadence, you're likely going to lose the forward momentum you need for a good racer. A good barrel horse is smarter than its jockey, anyway. Bones is sure 'nough smarter than me when it comes to running--I've got to trust her in the heat of the moment. I can force control over her in the pasture and make her a very unhappy horse, but she was bred and trained to run, and who am I to insist against that? I've helped to make her crazy in my quest for a good barrel horse--it would be unfair of me to now punish her for who she's become.


I've been to the CFR quite a few times myself and I found that most of the horses that won were balanced, controlled, and fast. But, as soon as they were done, they were calm as can be. 

You wouldn't be "punishing" her by teaching her to relax. By working on collecting her and allowing her energy to move forward while she is balanced, you will likely find that she'll injure herself less. Why is this? Her legs will be organized and she'll be able to use her power from her hind end to push off from the start, turns, and every stride.


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## AlexS

Takes whole lot more than that to offend me, so no worries. 
Yes I have seen rodeos, but I don't understand what goes into them, I have spent my entire life trying to know more about my discipline, so have not really felt the need to get into the ins and outs of others. 

I understand that you can't be collected in the ring and I understand not punishing her for the things that you want her to do on other occassions. But I am surprised to hear that forcing control in the pasture would ruin her racing. 
I had a show jumper who would lather up as soon as she came out of the trailer at a show, she would prance and be very hard to manage, especially in the warm up ring. I remember quite a few of the other riders there not appreciating that. But with work she was calm at home and she did not lose her edge.


----------



## Lonannuniel

bubba13 said:


> There is considerable bracing and stiffness in the gaiting video. Do you see the same in the trotting video, both of body and arms?


You do look more forgiving in that video, I did see some tension, but really, we all have those moments ( you should have seen my statue imitation the other day during a lesson). 

He does have the potential to be a lovely / calm horse, based on the pasture video ( I saw a lovely swinging trot ). I think you just need to slow yourself down a bit ( your posting looked a bit rushed ) and your horse should respond. Also, try some 'stretchy circles' - this is something we do in dressage, you allow the horse to stretch his head and neck down during the trot, and I find it is a good way to help teach yourself to use your body to control speed as opposed to your arms. Also, ( not that I'm trying to convert you to dressage ;P) if you are ever in the mood, look up Sally swift, some of her techniques can apply to all disciplines. She gives some lovely visuals that help you ride with your body as a whole.


----------



## Allison Finch

I see a very unsound horse attempting to do a "trantor". 1/2 trot, 1/2 canter. It is NOT a "gaited" movement.

My momma used to say..."If you can't say something nice....don't say anything at all".....so I won't.


----------



## bubba13

JustDressageIt said:


> Bubba, why you are not willing to listen to the very knowledgable posters on the HF?
> You _are_ on her face, and you _are_ all over the saddle - period. The "compromise" is not good; you want to walk, the horse walks. Not "oh she wants to run, so I'll let her do this weird shuffle thing instead." No. Especially not on a horse recovering from injury. A horse recovering from injury such as you described needs to be brought back very slowly, and in a controlled manner.


If "being on her face" means "having contact," then yeah, guilty. Though I must say, simply noticing your username and recalling some of the (professional; high-level) dressage riders I've seen, I have _considerably_ less rein pressure. It may not appear that way from the video, but there is NOT NOT NOT intense pressure on her face. You would be seeing far more head-shaking if there was.

The "weird shuffle thing" is what I would like input on--_what is it, because I am curious if it is an actual recognized gait?_

She has been brought back slowly, and is continuing to be brought back slowly, all on the vet's recommendation. I'm strengthening her on the straightaway for the time being and hope to start working on turns again within the next few weeks, then gradually increasing speed and seeing if she'll hold up to competition again.

I want to walk--she walks. I want to trot, she wants to run, I say "heck, let's take a video because this is funny, and then we'll get back to work and control." And so we did.



justjump said:


> If I was you, I'd just stop replying. I had a post like this, and I erased my original post, and stopped replying all together, because clearly, you won't get a nice post.:?


You know, I brought it on myself, now I've got to deal with the consequences and clean up the train wreck.



Arksly said:


> I've been to the CFR quite a few times myself and I found that most of the horses that won were balanced, controlled, and fast. But, as soon as they were done, they were calm as can be.
> 
> You wouldn't be "punishing" her by teaching her to relax. By working on collecting her and allowing her energy to move forward while she is balanced, you will likely find that she'll injure herself less. Why is this? Her legs will be organized and she'll be able to use her power from her hind end to push off from the start, turns, and every stride.


She's the oddest barrel horse I've ever had, and the only one who has truly enjoyed her job. She's also the exact opposite of any horse I've ridden. She's a nutter at home--you can see that. Very difficult to control. Haul her to a barrel race, and she's a different horse. In warm-up, she's extremely calm. She listens perfectly; rides quietly--that's the only time I can actually put hanging slack in the reins and let her relax. In short, she puts her game face on. She knows what she's supposed to do. I can ride her out of the arena on a loose rein, ride her bareback in a halter all around the grounds, and so on and so forth.

"By working on collecting her and allowing her energy to move forward while she is balanced, you will likely find that she'll injure herself less."

This is absolutely true--but here's the kicker! The two times she's been badly hurt, she did it in the pasture on turnout, not while I was riding or competing on her!


----------



## Arksly

bubba13 said:


> If "being on her face" means "having contact," then yeah, guilty. Though I must say, simply noticing your username and recalling some of the (professional; high-level) dressage riders I've seen, I have _considerably_ less rein pressure. It may not appear that way from the video, but there is NOT NOT NOT intense pressure on her face. You would be seeing far more head-shaking if there was.




You have contact, but it's too strong. I think it would greatly benefit you both, judging by the pasture videos if you let your hands forward and just relax. 


I always understood that in Western you don't have contact. Or at least not the same contact as in English. I ride Dressage and I ride with a steady contact. There is never a loop in my reins and I keep my hands closed. I do not pull back on the horse at all when just trotting and no one should. Judging by the video, there _is_ a lot of pressure on her face. Especially comparing to her just trotting on her own. 

What I see is a strung out horse and a tense rider. You've "closed" your upper body in the second video causing her to become even more strung out. Do you have access to a round pen or a smaller paddock? Working in one of those could discourage her from always wanting to go go go. Also, working on circles, half halts, and one-rein stops could help.


----------



## myhorsesonador

bubba13 said:


> My horse would have flattened you, too. And yes, she's in severe agony, can't you tell? I took a shovel to her leg later on just for good measure.


oh really? how old are you, like 5? If you don't learn how to acept what every one is telling you then why even post stuff? To be honest if I saw you riding like that I would have pulled you off your horse. 

BTW your horse is in pain. You obviously know nuthing about horses. You are not Gods gife to horses. No one is going to be nice to you when you act so arrogent.

BTW I have trained barrel racers before and so have lots of people here. you are not fooling any one by saying "thats what you need in a barrel horse" All the horses I trained would stay in frame and they knew when to strech out. Non of them were hot, not at the gate, not at home, and deffanitly not around the barrels. The 2 of the horses That I trained went on to be 1d and the other was a 2d so don't even try to tell me that my metods didn't work.


----------



## bubba13

AlexS said:


> Takes whole lot more than that to offend me, so no worries.
> Yes I have seen rodeos, but I don't understand what goes into them, I have spent my entire life trying to know more about my discipline, so have not really felt the need to get into the ins and outs of others.
> 
> I understand that you can't be collected in the ring and I understand not punishing her for the things that you want her to do on other occassions. But I am surprised to hear that forcing control in the pasture would ruin her racing.
> I had a show jumper who would lather up as soon as she came out of the trailer at a show, she would prance and be very hard to manage, especially in the warm up ring. I remember quite a few of the other riders there not appreciating that. But with work she was calm at home and she did not lose her edge.


I think we're having a disconnect here. I hate those sorts of barrel horses who are total nutters; who require tight wire tie-downs and bits with nine-inch shanks and whose only gait is a crowhop. I do focus on control and collection (just obviously not in the original video), and expect obedience and framing. But not nearly to the extent seen in disciplines like dressage, HUS, or WP, as those would likely be counterproductive to her running career. It's a different sort of control. Seat and leg and lateral cues are emphasized; even while she's flailing like an idiot she's listening carefully to me. I don't disagree that she would be a better horse if she rode better in the pasture. But she wouldn't be the same horse.



Lonannuniel said:


> You do look more forgiving in that video, I did see some tension, but really, we all have those moments ( you should have seen my statue imitation the other day during a lesson).
> 
> He does have the potential to be a lovely / calm horse, based on the pasture video ( I saw a lovely swinging trot ). I think you just need to slow yourself down a bit ( your posting looked a bit rushed ) and your horse should respond. Also, try some 'stretchy circles' - this is something we do in dressage, you allow the horse to stretch his head and neck down during the trot, and I find it is a good way to help teach yourself to use your body to control speed as opposed to your arms. Also, ( not that I'm trying to convert you to dressage ;P) if you are ever in the mood, look up Sally swift, some of her techniques can apply to all disciplines. She gives some lovely visuals that help you ride with your body as a whole.


I do wish I had some fundamentals in dressage. I'm extremely lacking in classical riding theory. My riding is far from proper, even at its best, though I would argue that it is "effective." My posture, I know, is horrible, and I've killed my lower back from poor body carriage....



Allison Finch said:


> I see a very unsound horse attempting to do a "trantor". 1/2 trot, 1/2 canter. It is NOT a "gaited" movement.
> 
> My momma used to say..."If you can't say something nice....don't say anything at all".....so I won't.


I'm quite glad that my vet and farrier disagreed and declared the horse sound last week.


----------



## UnrealJumper

OP you asked what people thought of the horse and rider... and that's what you're getting. I think that you might want to take some of the advice rather than getting a defensive. Some people are more up front than others, but it's still no reason for you to be so defensive about the whole thing.


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## AlexS

bubba I knew you were disagreeing with the bits and tie downs. 
But I do not agree that she will be a different horse if you calm here down enough in the pasture, that's just what you are assuming, same way I am assuming it won't make a difference it comes to racing. But I know nothing about your discipline, maybe some other barrel racers can come in here and pass opinions.


----------



## bubba13

Arksly said:


> You have contact, but it's too strong. I think it would greatly benefit you both, judging by the pasture videos if you let your hands forward and just relax.
> 
> 
> I always understood that in Western you don't have contact. Or at least not the same contact as in English. I ride Dressage and I ride with a steady contact. There is never a loop in my reins and I keep my hands closed. I do not pull back on the horse at all when just trotting and no one should. Judging by the video, there _is_ a lot of pressure on her face. Especially comparing to her just trotting on her own.
> 
> What I see is a strung out horse and a tense rider. You've "closed" your upper body in the second video causing her to become even more strung out. Do you have access to a round pen or a smaller paddock? Working in one of those could discourage her from always wanting to go go go. Also, working on circles, half halts, and one-rein stops could help.


Regular Western riding is considerably different from speed event riding. Speed events often attract poor horsemanship, it is true, but you will always see them riding on the bit, with considerable contact, regardless of the rider's skill, with very, very, VERY few exceptions among the absolute best of horses.

The amount of contact I am riding with is just enough to rotate the bit and apply the curb. The curb is not tightened, mind you, but it is laying against her jaw and the mouthpiece is pressing on her tongue and bars but not to the extent that it is breaking in half, pinching, or providing undue pressure. She can absolutely feel it, but it is nowhere near to the level of applying pain. Does that clarify what I mean by "light" contact? It may even be moving into moderate contact at times, but it is never harsh or severe.

If I put my hand far forward and relaxed, I can tell you from personal experience what would happen. Bolt and buck-fest. The bit is her security blanket, you would say, in addition to being control.

I do have too much tension in my body. It's a bad habit, an unfortunate positive feedback loop between riding hot horses and green colts, getting banged up and painful, and then responding to potentially dangerous horses by preparing to ride something rough. It doesn't help my horses relax, it's true. I wish there was something I could do about my lower back pain so I could loosen up, but the exercises I've tried have not helped.

I do half-halt her frequently. Round pens and tight circles are not yet allowed. A one-rein stop would get me thrown off a barrel horse. :shock:



myhorsesonador said:


> oh really? how old are you, like 5? If you don't learn how to acept what every one is telling you then why even post stuff? To be honest if I saw you riding like that I would have pulled you off your horse.
> 
> BTW your horse is in pain. You obviously know nuthing about horses. You are not Gods gife to horses. No one is going to be nice to you when you act so arrogent.
> 
> BTW I have trained barrel racers before and so have lots of people here. you are not fooling any one by saying "thats what you need in a barrel horse" All the horses I trained would stay in frame and they knew when to strech out. Non of them were hot, not at the gate, not at home, and deffanitly not around the barrels. The 2 of the horses That I trained went on to be 1d and the other was a 2d so don't even try to tell me that my metods didn't work.


I would absolutely LOVE to see some videos of this and your awesome champion horses. I'll put them up against Bonesies and her 1D BBR win any day.

What's a "gife?" :?


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## Lonannuniel

bubba13 said:


> I do wish I had some fundamentals in dressage. I'm extremely lacking in classical riding theory. My riding is far from proper, even at its best, though I would argue that it is "effective." My posture, I know, is horrible, and I've killed my lower back from poor body carriage....


 I think dressage, even the simple movements, will help in more ways than one! The best thing about riding is that you can always learn, and the more you learn, the better you get! If you're not in to mood to get a dressage trainer, books are absolutely brilliant, online resources are lovely as well, hopefully this experience doesn't discourage you from using this forum, as I've found many answers to my many questions on this forum. Yes, I know, nothing to do with the OP but I'm always excited when someone shows interest in dressage =)


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## bubba13

AlexS said:


> bubba I knew you were disagreeing with the bits and tie downs.
> But I do not agree that she will be a different horse if you calm here down enough in the pasture, that's just what you are assuming, same way I am assuming it won't make a difference it comes to racing. But I know nothing about your discipline, maybe some other barrel racers can come in here and pass opinions.


Are you thinking I tolerate that all the time? Because I don't. And I do ride her properly, believe it or not, collected, head lowered, but still sort of flaily. Because the latter is who she is.

But she can ride well; she is broke, she does know all of her cues. She just gets frustrated and mad sometimes and the result is this video.

She will never have a good "proper" headset. She can, however, lower her head from the horizontal and quit bracing with her neck. She can also trot and canter appropriately.

* * * * *

To be honest my gut reaction upon seeing this video and not knowing the background might be similar to some of ya'll's, and again, I apologize for my unfair social experiment. Still wish I had some input from actual experienced gaited horse people. Still would like to know, specifically, how I'm "hurting" her.


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## myhorsesonador

bubba13 said:


> Regular Western riding is considerably different from speed event riding. Speed events often attract poor horsemanship, it is true, but you will always see them riding on the bit, with considerable contact, regardless of the rider's skill, with very, very, VERY few exceptions among the absolute best of horses.
> 
> The amount of contact I am riding with is just enough to rotate the bit and apply the curb. The curb is not tightened, mind you, but it is laying against her jaw and the mouthpiece is pressing on her tongue and bars but not to the extent that it is breaking in half, pinching, or providing undue pressure. She can absolutely feel it, but it is nowhere near to the level of applying pain. Does that clarify what I mean by "light" contact? It may even be moving into moderate contact at times, but it is never harsh or severe.
> 
> If I put my hand far forward and relaxed, I can tell you from personal experience what would happen. Bolt and buck-fest. The bit is her security blanket, you would say, in addition to being control.
> 
> I do have too much tension in my body. It's a bad habit, an unfortunate positive feedback loop between riding hot horses and green colts, getting banged up and painful, and then responding to potentially dangerous horses by preparing to ride something rough. It doesn't help my horses relax, it's true. I wish there was something I could do about my lower back pain so I could loosen up, but the exercises I've tried have not helped.
> 
> I do half-halt her frequently. Round pens and tight circles are not yet allowed. A one-rein stop would get me thrown off a barrel horse. :shock:
> 
> 
> 
> I would absolutely LOVE to see some videos of this and your awesome champion horses. I'll put them up against Bonesies and her 1D BBR win any day.
> 
> What's a "gife?" :?


It was saposed to say gift.

This was 5 years ago. I don't have any photos or pictures of any of it and even if I did I couldn't post it, because the horses did not belong to me I just trained them.

I'm not trying to one up you I'm trying to make a point. The horses that I trained enjoyed what they did. Your mare does not. I've never seen a happy horse with it's ears pinned. She has been run to much to fast. She needs to be brought back to the basics. Starting with giving to the bit on the ground not in the saddle. There are way to meny gaps in her training.


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## bubba13

Lonannuniel said:


> I think dressage, even the simple movements, will help in more ways than one! The best thing about riding is that you can always learn, and the more you learn, the better you get! If you're not in to mood to get a dressage trainer, books are absolutely brilliant, online resources are lovely as well, hopefully this experience doesn't discourage you from using this forum, as I've found many answers to my many questions on this forum. Yes, I know, nothing to do with the OP but I'm always excited when someone shows interest in dressage =)


I think that Western dressage stuff might be more up my alley, but it's not around this area. I'd like to try Extreme Cowboy Racing too, but again there's no venue. 

Ah, for more hours in the day....!


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## UnrealJumper

I think "western dressage stuff" is called reining.


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## AlexS

Bubba I see that you had said this previously, the thread was moving too quickly there for a while, and I am half watching something on TV. 

Myhorseonador, out of interest do you have any videos of you training any horses? I would be interested to see them if you do. Or maybe you could point me to some of your previous posts where you have posted them. Thanks.


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## bubba13

myhorsesonador said:


> It was saposed to say gift.
> 
> This was 5 years ago. I don't have any photos or pictures of any of it and even if I did I couldn't post it, because the horses did not belong to me I just trained them.
> 
> I'm not trying to one up you I'm trying to make a point. The horses that I trained enjoyed what they did. Your mare does not. I've never seen a happy horse with it's ears pinned. She has been run to much to fast. She needs to be brought back to the basics. Starting with giving to the bit on the ground not in the saddle. There are way to meny gaps in her training.


Well, that is conveniently unfortunate, isn't it?

I'll have to tell Bones that she hates her job. She'll be crestfallen. Funny how all those NFR horses and racing TB's and racing Standardbreds and horses running in the pasture have their ears pinned, though, isn't it? It's almost like it's a way of showing intense concentration and focus or something...

I had her on slow work barrels for two _years_ before ever asking her for speed. That is the responsible and effective way to do it to ensure they don't blow up. I'm the last person who needs a lecture on keeping a barrel horse mentally sound, as that is one of my biggest pet peeves.


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## bubba13

UnrealJumper said:


> I think "western dressage stuff" is called reining.


Naw, it's this stuff: Western Dressage Association of America
Similar, but more classical dressagey.


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## Lonannuniel

bubba13 said:


> I think that Western dressage stuff might be more up my alley, but it's not around this area. I'd like to try Extreme Cowboy Racing too, but again there's no venue.
> 
> Ah, for more hours in the day....!


Reining is very similar to dressage - have you ever seen the dressage vs reining videos on youtube? They're quite brilliant! Anyway, once again taking this off the topic of the OP lol I'm afraid I have no advice in the western world, But anyway, best of luck with your horse! i'm glad your starting to get _some_ advice out of this thread.

*edit - i'm glad you posted the western dressage link! I've never heard of it before, I'll have to do some research on it myself sometime =)


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## myhorsesonador

AlexS said:


> Bubba I see that you had said this previously, the thread was moving too quickly there for a while, and I am half watching something on TV.
> 
> Myhorseonador, out of interest do you have any videos of you training any horses? I would be interested to see them if you do. Or maybe you could point me to some of your previous posts where you have posted them. Thanks.


I don't have a video camera. Nor do I have any one willing to video tape me. I have a hard enough time getting some one to take pics. sorry. I dont have many human friends and the one I do have is terrified of horses. And it was 5 years ago that I trained any horse really so I have got any posts on here since I've only been here a year. I'm no exspert by far but I do consider myself knowlageable.


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## AlexS

myhorsesonador said:


> I don't have a video camera. Nor do I have any one willing to video tape me. I have a hard enough time getting some one to take pics. sorry. I dont have many human friends and the one I do have is terrified of horses. And it was 5 years ago that I trained any horse really so I have got any posts on here since I've only been here a year. I'm no exspert by far but I do consider myself knowlageable.



oh I assumed you would, my trainer films me and my horse all the time as it helps me to see what she is talking about and for me to study it. Out of interest, how old are you? 

Sorry for the thread derail, feel free to continue with it.


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## myhorsesonador

AlexS said:


> oh I assumed you would, my trainer films me and my horse all the time as it helps me to see what she is talking about and for me to study it. Out of interest, how old are you?
> 
> Sorry for the thread derail, feel free to continue with it.


I'm 18 right now and I was 13 at the time. I worked for a horse broker since I was till 13. So I was riding 5 to 10 diffrent horses every day 6 days a week. She never filmed me either. I think she took one video of me but I never got a copy of the tape.

I havent had a trainer since then. When I hit high school I didnt have mich time. So I never really got to ride and I became addicted to caffen and food. So now I'm out of shape and out of practice.

As of 2 months ago I started to use a trainer with sonador because she reared up and fliped over on me. No one was hurt. I later found out she had an ulcer, but still I don't really want to get back on her yet. I'll try to get some pics of her in training next week if I remember. tecnicly I am to big to ride her as I am 240# and she is 1000# but she never seemed to mind. I really want to loose some weight before I ride her again.


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## Hukassa

I think most of this thread are people saying their right, and argueing that they are until the cows come home. OP, when you posted this video you should have expected responses like this, especially with a horse with past lameness issues. Yes, you can argue and try to be cute with sarcastic comments but maybe you should listen to some of the advice given to you? I'm not doubting you and saying you're a horrible rider nor am I saying you ride like that all the time but its apparant in the first video you have very heavy hands, not just a slight constant pressure,and your 'sitting trot' wasn't good, and it wouldn't of been good even if you were riding a balanced gaited horse. I know this video was just for laughs but your riding could have caused your horse discomfort, especially when she has previous issues. You said earlier in a post that she was a sweet horse in the pasture but crazy under saddle---could that be discomfort from your tack or the weight or tne rider?
You also said that keep contact with the bit to keep her sanity and yours, and to keep her from bolting but later you said keeping a barrel horse mentally sound is something you feel is very important, but it does not sound like your achieving it?

Again, with a video like this you should of expected negative comments and angered people, and I know it was just for laughs but you should still ride in a balanced and controlled manner at ANYTIME. Always ride your best.


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## Equilove

The horse is confused and the rider is sloppy. It's very awkward to watch.


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## bubba13

Hukassa said:


> I think most of this thread are people saying their right, and argueing that they are until the cows come home. OP, when you posted this video you should have expected responses like this, especially with a horse with past lameness issues. Yes, you can argue and try to be cute with sarcastic comments but maybe you should listen to some of the advice given to you? I'm not doubting you and saying you're a horrible rider nor am I saying you ride like that all the time but its apparant in the first video you have very heavy hands, not just a slight constant pressure,and your 'sitting trot' wasn't good, and it wouldn't of been good even if you were riding a balanced gaited horse. I know this video was just for laughs but your riding could have caused your horse discomfort, especially when she has previous issues. You said earlier in a post that she was a sweet horse in the pasture but crazy under saddle---could that be discomfort from your tack or the weight or tne rider?
> You also said that keep contact with the bit to keep her sanity and yours, and to keep her from bolting but later you said keeping a barrel horse mentally sound is something you feel is very important, but it does not sound like your achieving it?
> 
> Again, with a video like this you should of expected negative comments and angered people, and I know it was just for laughs but you should still ride in a balanced and controlled manner at ANYTIME. Always ride your best.


I did expect the negative comments, and that's why I'm not running off screaming persecution. I do fail to see the harm in occasional goofing off, though. Given that I am now telling you the truth, and saying that this two-minute video was but a snippet of my ride, and that but a snippet of my usual weekly exercise routine (which consists of far better, more proper, and more controlled riding), can you honestly insinuate that this did serious harm, either wrecking the mare's training or hurting her in any way?

I _swear_ I do not have heavy hands, but apparently have no proof to offer. Nothing I can do to convince anyone otherwise, I guess, besides repeat my refrain....

Yeah, I have no idea how a gaited horse (real or otherwise) should truly be ridden, and I'm basing my parody off of MFT competitions I have seen (talk about bad riding :shock: ) and speed racking YouTube videos. And doing my best to keep the strain from my bouncing off of her back.

I am very careful about protecting her injured leg. That's why I kept her on a straight line on even ground.

I was joking about her attitude on the ground versus under saddle. They're virtually identical--marish. Look! I found another video showcasing her awesome temperament! (Ignore the trainwreck at the beginning.)





 
As far as keeping her mentally sound, it may seem like I'm contradicting myself, but I do pride myself on my barrel horses' sanity. It is true that they do not ride quiet like WP or HUS horses, but they are controlled. They spend most of their riding time in the pasture or on the trails, not on barrels. This keeps them fresh. They are never gate sour, because I don't run the snot out of them. I keep on top of their soundness with the best in farrier and veterinary care. I expect respect from them, and the respond by listening to leg, seat, and vocal cues. They are "hot," because they are speed horses who are asked to run. They are not trail horses, but they are controlled at all times, they are broke, they are respectful. They do not try to bolt and they do not have alley problems and they do not refuse turns...all signs of blown-up, pushed-too-hard barrel horses.


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## natisha

bubba13 said:


> The "weird shuffle thing" is what I would like input on--_what is it, because I am curious if it is an actual recognized gait?_


No, it is not a recognized gait.


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## bubba13

When I posted the video on another forum some people said it reminded them of a tolt, others of a rack, and others of a singlefoot. I have extremely limited experience with gaited horses.

I thought at first that she was trotting on the front and loping on the hinds, but that doesn't seem to be quite the tempo. It's clear that she's unconfident and somewhat inconsistent, as occasionally her rear will lag behind and she has to pop and skip to keep up.


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## Sarahandlola

She looks like she is in pain somewhere...You should get her check all over.


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## natisha

bubba13 said:


> When I posted the video on another forum some people said it reminded them of a tolt, others of a rack, and others of a singlefoot. I have extremely limited experience with gaited horses.
> 
> I thought at first that she was trotting on the front and loping on the hinds, but that doesn't seem to be quite the tempo. It's clear that she's unconfident and somewhat inconsistent, as occasionally her rear will lag behind and she has to pop and skip to keep up.


That's why it's not a true gait but a mixture & not consistent.
Sometimes a naughty or green horse will do something like that when they throw their head & hollow their back but only for a few steps. It's the result of being evasive.
To bring your horse back & rebuild strength I would suggest lots of trotting at varying speeds with her head lowered to a natural position.


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## currie17

tinyliny said:


> That looks like a very unhappy horse and a very uncomfortable ride. What are they thinkin? Argh! The horse looks miserabel with her hauling on his mouth and bumping inthe saddle.


I agree with that sentiment completely. 

And please PUT ON A HELMET. By not riding with a helmet, you are putting yourself at an enormous and unnecessary risk. Even experienced riders can be injured when riding without a helmet; Courtney King-Dye, an Olympian, went into a coma after her horse tripped and she hit her head while riding without a helmet. (Thankfully, she is now doing much better).


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## bubba13

Sarahandlola said:


> She looks like she is in pain somewhere...You should get her check all over.


Has been checked, _repeatedly_, not in pain.



natisha said:


> That's why it's not a true gait but a mixture & not consistent.
> Sometimes a naughty or green horse will do something like that when they throw their head & hollow their back but only for a few steps. It's the result of being evasive.
> To bring your horse back & rebuild strength I would suggest lots of trotting at varying speeds with her head lowered to a natural position.


I have been, to the latter part. 
This "gait," whatever it is, is something she's always done when excited. Some acquaintances of mine own a phenomenal old world champion barrel horse who got her in his twenties. After he recovered, he picked up the same action. I assume it was a reponse to pain and its evasion with him, but my horse has always done it (and no, not always with the bracing head, but at slower speeds with a lowered head and rounded back).



currie17 said:


> I agree with that sentiment completely.
> 
> And please PUT ON A HELMET. By not riding with a helmet, you are putting yourself at an enormous and unnecessary risk. Even experienced riders can be injured when riding without a helmet; Courtney King-Dye, an Olympian, went into a coma after her horse tripped and she hit her head while riding without a helmet. (Thankfully, she is now doing much better).


Yep, riding is a dangerous sport, and we all choose the risks we are willing to take...


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## Arksly

I think you are getting such a negative feedback because you simply posted a video without any background and the fact that you are fighting with anything we say. Judging by the video's description and what we saw in the clips. We were blalantly honest saying what we thought of the ride in the video. And I'm sorry you have a problem with that. You posted a video, asked a question, and got feedback.


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## Equilove

Arksly said:


> I think you are getting such a negative feedback because you simply posted a video without any background and the fact that you are fighting with anything we say. Judging by the video's description and what we saw in the clips. We were blalantly honest saying what we thought of the ride in the video. And I'm sorry you have a problem with that. You posted a video, asked a question, and got feedback.


Agreed, wholeheartedly.


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## Mike_User

This thread has been closed since, as the OP admitted,



bubba13 said:


> To be honest my gut reaction upon seeing this video and not knowing the background might be similar to some of ya'll's, and again, I apologize for my unfair social experiment.


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-rid...you-think-horse-rider-79355/page7/#post941723

and, unfortunately, many members will watch the video and spend their time replying about it before reading the OP's later explanations.

To the OP, going forward, please only post videos you feel are representative of your riding in order to prevent similar misunderstanding.


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