# Critique my riding with Sonny :) (lots o' pictures)



## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

also...give me like 10 minutes or so and I'll post the links to videos hehe


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

the last two pics are good. you look more relaxed and in tune with what he is doing  He also looks like he's getting the working through his back thing...huge improvement in just a couple of months  good job! keep working at it!

ETA: last 3 pics, actually


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

One thing I notice that is consistant with your pictures (I'm comparing these to the ones with Devon as well) is that you're posting weird. In all your trotting pictures you are landing in the back of the saddle with your legs waaaay out in front of you. Bring your legs back underneath of you and focus on posting forwards and up rather than ... backwards?! 
Imagine there is a spring attached to your belly button and it's pulling your pelvis forwards and up at a 45 degree angle every time you post. Try posting from your knees (not gripping!) and keep your lower leg back underneath of you.
Another thing I find is consistant with you is your toe down, heel up thing... that needs to be reversed 
Overall, I think the picture of your best position is the second picture.. your shoulders, hips and heels look to be in a semi-straight line. From there on in you seem to have developed a chair seat... maybe riding without stirrups might help you there - then you'll have to rely all your balance on your seat, and you will have to bring your legs back underneath you.
I hope my post makes sense.. let me know if I can clarify anything.. it's a little all over the place haha!
Overall you're looking good  and I'm very happy to see these many pictures, I believe it improves ANY rider's riding.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

well with the heel down thing...my ankles are weak and no matter how I try to stretch them to stay down they only stay down part of the time, not all the time. I'm still working on that.

Also, for the pictures of me in an English saddle, I was more than likely posting at a trot...but when I am in the western I don't post at all

I've done some work without stirrups and I'm fine without them (actually half of the lesson I don't use stirrups lol). Would you honestly consider that a chair seat? I mean, I've seen a girl with a chair seat and her position doesn't even come close to mine at all.

Also, JDI (and to everyone also) what do you guys think of Sonny? Think he has gotten better over time?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Your western pix are way better than your english, you even have him pretty much underneath himself and on the bit... he's a little strung out and could be more collected but WAY better than english. I think you may be a western rider.

Your stirrup length looks ok however I would go ahead and shorten them one or two holes because you are reaching for them, until you can get your heels down you really should go ahead and ride w/ just one or two holes shorter. Work on stretching your legs down and do your heel excersizes. You need to move your lower leg back just a bit but in all, your western pix are really cute. You are sitting up straight, your shoulders are back you look comfortable... The sidesaddle pic you actually ahve your heels down!

If you can get your leg back and heel down western, that will really help you with your english too. Part of why your english is so strung out and sloppy is because you are reaching so much for your stirrups, you have alot of movement in your legs.

Very cute pix though! Way better than your Devon shots!!!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> well with the heel down thing...my ankles are weak and no matter how I try to stretch them to stay down they only stay down part of the time, not all the time. I'm still working on that.
> 
> Also, for the pictures of me in an English saddle, I was more than likely posting at a trot...but when I am in the western I don't post at all
> 
> ...


Chair seat... a little harsh, but definitely not lined up. Take a ruler and hold it to the pix. Your heel should line up with your hip and your shoulder. Your toe should line up with your knee. It's over all not horrific. I see progress in you AND your horse....


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Not a definite chair seat, but your lower leg definitely is out of line with your hip. 
Yes, I agree with Farmpony, definite improvement.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I thought though, that for western, you wanted the longer stirrups so your leg was straighter....maybe I heard it wrong.....


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

not nesscesarily...you want your stirrups to be adjusted to where you can put your arm under it, stretch it out, and the bottom of the stirrup fit neatly in your armpit. 

i would say as a rule that western stirrups are longer than ones on a jumping saddle, but not by much


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Yes, agreed, as a rule western stirrups are longer and I went back to your pix and the one wear your leg looked worse actually you werent using your stirrup, you were just letting your toes hang low. I would only shorten it about one hole, I think 2 might be too much, it's just that you are reaching too much for your stirrup I think. try it and see what it does, bring your legs back, if you hate it, then drop it back down again.


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## Just Jump It (Jan 13, 2008)

You are showing some improvement!

IN all of the pics, you are riding with your hands in your lap. Pick them up. Low hands will only pull the bit down on your hroses sensitive bars and put him in a false frame on the forehand. 

Your horse has become rounder and softer in the more recent pics. God job! Make sure you are concentrating on his whole body and not only his headset. Light hands create a light hrose. 

But are you riding with two hands on a curb bit? If you are, thats a huge no no. Riding two handed on a curb is harsh, you should ride one handed or switch to a snaffle. If your horse is too fast or too hard mouthed for anything but a curb, then I suggest you go back to basics and get him moving well in a snaffle.

You are over posting quite a bit. Allow the horse to move your seat, do not thrust it. Do not push off your toes, instead, relax your ankle. The only way you can help your posting is to strengthen your lower leg. Lower your weight into your heel to plant your legs at the girth. Stiffness in your ankle translates to stiffness throughout the entire leg and seat. This is evedint in the pics. Your seat moves around quite a bit, sometimes its forward, sometimes its far back. 

A strong lower leg will allow you to stay centered over your horse, neither behind nor ahead of his motion.

Good luck!


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

Overall, you seem to be doing a good job with him. One thing I'm definitely noticing is that your horse is working a lot on his front end, especially in the 3rd pic(?). He needs a bit more impulsion from the hind end. :wink: I see you were working on the head set with him and he's got the starting of one in some pictures, which is great.  But he's still heavy on the front. 

To me it looks like you need a lot more leg with him. You're riding too much with your hands, instead of using your seat. The more constant leg pressure (not kicks) you give him and the more you soften your hand, the more he'll begin working from the hind end and softening as well. Does this make sense? 

I would definitely suggest riding bareback or stirrup-less. It will help strengthen your seat and lighten up your hands. Also try riding on the lunge, without reins. Keep your hands in the imaginary rein position, or keep your arms out in the air. On the lunge, you'll feel quite safe doing this, and it also helps A TON with developing a good, QUIET, even post and working more from your seat. 

I tried this myself and it was very helpful. All in all you are doing well with him. Sonny is very cute and he seems very eager to please!!

Keep up the good work!   (Hope I didn't sound harsh in anything I said!)


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## ILuv2ride (Apr 29, 2008)

overall its pretty good! the only thing i see is that your hands are down to low when you're riding english. Just lift up your hands of the saddle and the horses neck.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Thanks all...I know we still need work and the reason I keep my hands down low is because it's a habit...it's not bothering him....nor are my reins tight at all....he has free headmovement and can raise or lower his head easily without being hurt by the bit.



Just Jump It said:


> You are showing some improvement!
> 
> IN all of the pics, you are riding with your hands in your lap. Pick them up. Low hands will only pull the bit down on your hroses sensitive bars and put him in a false frame on the forehand.
> 
> ...


As for Just Jump It...
First off, I am NOT only concentrating on the headset...ask anyone who has been here for a while and they will know. Probably in the first 3 pictures yes, I was mainly because I've always been told that collection is just having the head on the verticle....but I have been working on getting his back rounded...and if you can tell from the second to last picture (the first one that has polo wraps on his legs) he IS rounded (and I put the last picture to prove my point)....Notice there the saddle is in comparision to the highest point on his hips....in the first one...it's ABOVE that point on his hips...in the last one (which is him with his head, no head on verticle at all) it's below. Which to me means he was rounding his back...if to you it does not, then please explain how come all of a sudden my saddle pad grew thicking.

You CAN ride with two hands on a curb bit and NO as long as you aren't constantly nagging on their mouth or being harsh, it will NOT bother them. Yes, in the English pictures I am using a curb bit...and YES with two hands....it ain't a sin...he listened perfectly and the same way as with his eggbutt snaffle...You can use two hands with ANY bit...and you can use just one hand (neck reining) with ANY bit does not matter if it's a jumping bit, eggbutt snaffle. or a snaffle with shanks...does not matter at all. 
I am using an eggbutt snaffle now ONLY because I lost my one with shanks. Sonny responded NO different to either bit...INFACT he enjoyed the shank bit better (yes I know he does...if not than explain why he's literally open his mouth for me to put the bit in)

Please note also, that in NONE of these pictures were we posting...infact I hardly EVER post because his trot is soo smooth. The one bitless picture, in which I am leaning, is because I was finishing cantering, and I wanted him to keep going so I was "pumping" with my body to hopefully get him to continue...but he stopped. 
Sometimes my body is forward and sometimes it's back? You do know that I'm using two different saddles, right? I'm sitting in the same place in the western as all the other western photos...I'm not moving forward or more back. 

Thanks for the help, JJI, but no offense I'm not sure if you entirely know what you are talking about...but I do see what you are getting at.
Thanks


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## Just Jump It (Jan 13, 2008)

Oh my. :roll: 

If you reread my critique, you will see that I stated "your horse has become rounder and softer...make sure you are not only concentrating on his headset." I stated this because it is very easy to fall into this habit, I did not say that you were doing it. So, cool down.

I agree, your horse has his back rounded. Good job! 

Just because your horses back is rounded does not neccesarily mean he is moving off his fore and tracking up. 

BUT... it does mean that you are well on your way to acheiving this. 

A round back allows the horse to reach under himself with his leags. However, it dosen't mean that he is. You must use your legs to get him reaching. IN the thrird to last picture, he is moving under himself nicely. In the folowing pictures, he is not.

This tells me that he can carry himself nicely, he just needs to develop the muscle and habit. Once you use you legs to create more energy then you will have collection and your horse will be off his fore. 

Yes, you can use a leverage with two hands. And yes, you can ride a snaffle with one. But that dosen't mean you should. A curb works off of leverage (whch I am sure you already know). One pound of pressure on the reins equals three pounds in his mouth, depending on your shank lengths. It was created to work off of indirect pressure (neck reining) not direct pressure (two hands).


If you use a snaffle, your horse rasies his head towards the bit pressure, which is up towards your hands. 

Now, if you are using a regular curb that has no break in the middle, every time you pull on one side of the bit the whole bit twists in the horses mouth. This type of bit is not supposed to be two handed. Ever.

BUT.. if you are using a jointed shanked bit, like a Tom Thumb, then yes, you may ride two handed. However its very severe and I see no reason to ride a horse in a severe bit when he goes just as nicely in a soft one. 

Would you ride your horse in huge cookie cutter spurs if he goes just as well without them?

Yes, he is going to ride softer and more perfect in a shanked bit because it is harsher and makes your aids more sharp. But why get him used to sharp aids? The point of training is to get your horse to respond to subtle aids. 

However, this is your horse. If you want to ride him in a harsh bit, and you think he likes it better, go ahead. That is your opinion and you are very entitled to it. Just as I am entitled to mine. 

A saddle does not change the way you are sitting. You do not sit more forward in an english saddle, or more back in a western saddle. 

Your center must remain over the horses center. It has NOTHING to do with what type of saddle you are riding in. 

A suggestion. If I may.

When someone posts a critique, accept it graciously. Even if you don't entirely agree with it. Everyone has their different opinions, you cannot flame them for it. I stated my opinions. You may not agree with them. Thats fine.

Next time, do not ask for a "harsh critique, I don't care, hehe".


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

He's incredibly heavy on the forehand, from what I'm seeing.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

Just Jump It said:


> Oh my. :roll:
> 
> If you reread my critique, you will see that I stated "your horse has become rounder and softer...make sure you are not only concentrating on his headset." I stated this because it is very easy to fall into this habit, I did not say that you were doing it. So, cool down.
> 
> ...


Sorry did not mean to be rude or anything, just didn't totally agree what you said...apologies if you took it rudely

Off forehand? Does that mean the same as engaging hind-quarters? I've heard that phrase for sure but not sure what it means

In the third to last it didn't appear, to me, that he was actually rounding at all...am I wrong? 

Yeah he definately needs more muscles and more habit....sadly before I bought him he was used just as a trail horse (pleasure trails) and no one cares if the horse is collected or not for that.
I'm working on more muscle building mainly in the topline, hind-quarters and neck area....anyplace else u see?

I am using a jointed, and when I normally ride in my western I usually have just enough contact where I can feel his head but not tight, but that day my instructor randomly wanted me to get more contact (she didn't realize the bit I was using cause most of the time I'm using my regular snaffle and she was busy paying attention to the one young girl who was having her first riding lesson.
But no, normally I don't use my western unless we are doing something special like a fake show or an open house
And those pictures were from the 2 open houses we had I believe

I just reread the post and it did sound rather rude, my apologies JJI, at the time I was writing it, it did not sound rude...again apologies


And for Harlee...I think possibly the reason he looks heavy on the forehand is because the angle of the camera is off, but I could be wrong. It definately feels that he is up higher in front than back while riding, but it might just be me


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

I agree with Harlee though, he is heavy on the forehand.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

JR could it just be the picture angle? do notice that the angle isn't straight


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> JR could it just be the picture angle? do notice that the angle isn't straight


I don't think so. It isn't a really big problem, because he's not that bad. He just isn't using his back end as much as he could be. It can be fixed by lots of leg and lighter hands. :wink:


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

yeah he does need a bit more work using his hind end...he still doesn't understand that fully...but also it doesn't help that the sides of the arena are kinda slopey lol which might be another reason...but I dunno


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

How old is he? If he's young, don't worry, it'll come with time.


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## Just Jump It (Jan 13, 2008)

No hard feelings!  

On the forehand means that the horse is not carrying his own weight by reaching under himself with his back legs. Instead, he has most of his weight on his front legs. 

A horse that is off the fore will be moving uphill, carrying his weight on the more powerful hindquaters. This frame allows the horse to perform better and stay off the riders hands. A horse that is off the fore will be able to perform transitions better and have smoother gaits. 

A horse cannot reach under himself unless he is soft through the poll and jaw and thus rounded through his back (which your horse is). When his back is up he will naturally be able to step under himself.

All you have to do is get him moving actively and stepping under himself with your inside leg. Collection is controlled energy. You have the control, you just need the energy. 

You are well on your way to acheiving a correct frame. Good luck!


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

I'm waiting on the energy cause I'm still trying to build up endurance...when I first got him he'd seriously sweat after a minute of trotting (in the winter) and now he's gotten better, but not as good as I'd like him. When his endurance kicks up I'll ask more and more of him because I know he'll have the strength and energy to do it


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

SonnyWimps said:


> well with the heel down thing...my ankles are weak and no matter how I try to stretch them to stay down they only stay down part of the time, not all the time. I'm still working on that.
> 
> Also, for the pictures of me in an English saddle, I was more than likely posting at a trot...but when I am in the western I don't post at all
> 
> ...


it's undertandable for you to question peoples opinions, but you asked for help, then rejected everything that JDI said. If you want to learn, the key, is to not make excuses, just do it 


Sonny is looking better yes  I still stand by what I've said before though.. and I think you should have a dressage lesson with an official dressage coach.
and I wouldnt be trying to train dressage in a western saddle


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

jeddah, I'm not training dressage in a western saddle....is it wrong to want Sonny collected even if I'm a western rider?
I don't agree with all the stuff dressage does so until those rules change I'm just a plain ol' simple western rider and trail rider lol

And I'm not interested in taking any dressage lessons, to be honest, not that I don't enjoy watching some dressage, I'm just really happy with the instructor that I have now. 
Sonny responds better to a western saddle than an english and behaves better also.

And I did not reject everything JDI says, I was just explaining for the reason that I can't keep my heels down...surely that doesn't mean I'm rejecting her....
And I was asking her on the other one if she really considered that as a chair seat.
I definately did not reject anything JDI says and I respect all her comments and she definately knows more than me on matters of collection, and riding.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Sonny you look much better!  I have to say I see a great improvement, keep it up! Pretty much everyone else has covered all the critique lol.


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## SonnyWimps (Feb 22, 2008)

thanks Poptart. I do have to say that I have a better position on Sonny than any of the other horses (well maybe besides one but if you don't have perfect position he bucks you off lol) and I've been working more on keeping my legs back more.

Question for ya'll....when I cue Sonny, instead of just using my whole leg to "push" him over, I use my heel and do it...it's always something that I've done...is that something I should get out of the habit of? Or is that considered alright to do?


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