# Abscess still isn't clearing up..



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

The vet was positive it's an abscess, and the farrier agrees?


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

That's quite wierd, that the farrier can't dig deep enough to get at it. I've dealt with two in my own thoroughbred within the past few months, he blew both fronts but we drained them, problem was he's houdini and kept getting hoof wraps off.

Does he show tenderness anywhere in his hoof with or without hoof testers? For Mitchs first one, the vet used the testers to find it, and the second one she didn't even need to testers, it was quite obvious where it was sore by just touching it.

It's possible that it has burst, maye out the coronet band and you haven't been able to see it? Unless for whatever reason it's disappeared. hmmm.

The epsom salts should have softened up his hoof, maybe the abcess was only very small and it did manage to work its way out after being soaked. Mitchs first one was like that.

He could well have healed up, but my farrier said to me "A horse has gotta think he's healed before he stops limping" which kind of makes sense, like say if you sprain your ankle, you automatically think it's gonna hurt for a little while even after its healed so your naturally careful on it until you realise hey that actually doesn't hurt.

The moving around should have done good because he wasn't just standing still on the hoof, he was helping move things down and out the path of least resistance. I took Mitch for walks up the road, 1. to dry out his hooves from the winter mud, and 2. to get things moving in there.

All horses heal differently, I wouldn't think you should have to call the vet out again provided your horse doesnt need any more anti-inflammatories etc, I actually found my farrier treated it better than my vet did, he created a decent drainage hole instead of a pin ***** in the hoof.

I'm picking that seeing as you say his fetlock etc was all swollen, that would be the infection going to the least path of resistance, which would be the coronet band, check that thoroughly to see if you can find any signs of a draining, if not then I wouldnt worry because if he's slowly coming right you should be ok.

I would keep an eye on the other back hoof though.. Because he got the abcess in one hoof he would put more weight on the other, thus having more chance of a puncture wound in that hoof from stepping harder.

Whats the weather/grounds like over there?


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

Yes, the vet seemed certain that's what it was. The farrier said he wouldn't disagree, but has had some trouble being sure of where to dig for it. Last time he was out he said he was pretty sure of where it could be. He never came out and said "Oh, yeah, that's definitely what it is" though. You think it could be something else?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

So the vet saw the abscess on the radiographs, yet your farrier can't tell the same location? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And like the other poster said--is he sensitive to hoof testers? If not, I'd almost wonder if it could have been a soft tissue injury of sorts...


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

The x-ray showed the spot being pretty deep in the toe, so he thought it would exit through the bottom of the hoof. I have been watching the coronet, too, but regardless where it drains I'm not saying I couldn't have missed it. He is also pretty good at wearing through the wraps - doesn't matter how well I tape it up and I was trying to avoid the extra cost of a boot. 
The last time the farrier was out (a couple weeks ago, now) he was a little sore with the hoof testers, but at that point he was still favoring the hoof. Now I'm just concerned that it is still swollen. I haven't noticed him limping for the past few days at all.




HollyBubbles said:


> That's quite wierd, that the farrier can't dig deep enough to get at it. I've dealt with two in my own thoroughbred within the past few months, he blew both fronts but we drained them, problem was he's houdini and kept getting hoof wraps off.
> 
> Does he show tenderness anywhere in his hoof with or without hoof testers? For Mitchs first one, the vet used the testers to find it, and the second one she didn't even need to testers, it was quite obvious where it was sore by just touching it.
> 
> ...


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

No heat? And he's not on any painkillers or anti-inflammatories currently?


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

The farrier was looking at the same part of the hoof as the vet had thought it was (without me telling him where the vet said it would be) - he just said that he had dug out as much as he could without hurting the horse. Basically he thought at that point that it wasn't close enough to the surface.



bubba13 said:


> So the vet saw the abscess on the radiographs, yet your farrier can't tell the same location? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And like the other poster said--is he sensitive to hoof testers? If not, I'd almost wonder if it could have been a soft tissue injury of sorts...


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

Nope, no heat and he was only on the pain killers for the first week.



bubba13 said:


> No heat? And he's not on any painkillers or anti-inflammatories currently?


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Does he have shoes on? I know Mitch could wear through a thick layer of duct tape in half a day when he had a shoe on underneath.

Trust me though, the extra cost of a boot may be horrible to think of right now.. But whats gonna happen if you have to keep buying tape etc? Your gonna spend more on the tape over and over than you would if you brought just one boot.. I found that out the hard way. I ended up spending enough on tape to be able to buy 2 decent hoof boots.

Whats the weather like over there? Just trying to think of why he would have gotten an abcess is all.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

If he seems 100% sound, I'd go ahead and ride him. If not, I'd call the vet and see if s/he thinks another visit is warranted.


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

Yes, I did think of that when I decided against the boot a month ago, however I didn't think I'd be wrapping it this long  I should've known better. He is not in shoes, and I've got it to a point now where he just barely wears through by the time I'm there to change it again. I'll buy the boot before I buy more wrapping materials, though.

I'm in northeast Ohio. When he first came up lame it was right in the middle of a couple weeks where it was real dry and hot. He hadn't been turned out for a few days because it was so hot out, but prior to that he was turned out overnights.



HollyBubbles said:


> Does he have shoes on? I know Mitch could wear through a thick layer of duct tape in half a day when he had a shoe on underneath.
> 
> Trust me though, the extra cost of a boot may be horrible to think of right now.. But whats gonna happen if you have to keep buying tape etc? Your gonna spend more on the tape over and over than you would if you brought just one boot.. I found that out the hard way. I ended up spending enough on tape to be able to buy 2 decent hoof boots.
> 
> Whats the weather like over there? Just trying to think of why he would have gotten an abcess is all.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Without knowing your farrier, of course, I'd have to say that my first thought in reading this is that the farrier doesn't seem to be sure where the abscess is or he is not confident enough in his skill to go digging into where it needs to be dug out. My farrier says that a lot of farriers don't have the experience to be aggressive enough and they don't get it dug out because they don't want to do damage. In my opinion, though, if he digs it out right, you'll be able to keep it dressed and treated until it heals over. If it blows on its own, in the meantime it's potentially eating away at the internal structures of the hoof.


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

That could be. He seems really knowledgeable, but let's face it.. if I knew enough about his job to be sure, I wouldn't have had to hire him. I do get the feeling that he's not 100% certain that it's the right place. He did dig a decent bit out that I've been packing when I bandage it up.



Ladytrails said:


> Without knowing your farrier, of course, I'd have to say that my first thought in reading this is that the farrier doesn't seem to be sure where the abscess is or he is not confident enough in his skill to go digging into where it needs to be dug out. My farrier says that a lot of farriers don't have the experience to be aggressive enough and they don't get it dug out because they don't want to do damage. In my opinion, though, if he digs it out right, you'll be able to keep it dressed and treated until it heals over. If it blows on its own, in the meantime it's potentially eating away at the internal structures of the hoof.


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

I dont know if someone already said something like this so, sorry if I repeat anything. 
Last year around this time my little pony had the same exact thing happen to him. It popped up out of nowhere, we got the vet out, x rays showed an abcess, farrier came out and tried to dig it out, nothing happened. Until about two months had passed since he became lame. It finally popped! Three days after it popped he was back to being perfectly fine. But it has taken forever for the hole in his foot to be grown out. He's been wearing padded shoes for about a year now :/


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

I would never be brave enough to do the digging that's needed. I am lucky, though - my vet was a farrier first, and my farrier is the 'go to guy' for the abscesses in these parts. I've only had one abscess (knock wood) and it was found on the first vet visit. It was really deep, though - I could just about stick my whole thumbnail in there. Grossed out the lady who does my manicures for sure when I told her about it! ;-)


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

Was he still favoring it towards the end? I just can't understand why it would be swollen if he's walking (as well as some trotting and cantering when I lounge him) without seeming bothered by it anymore. I can certainly imagine it taking a long time to grow out though, based on the portion that I'm currently packing every day. 



Icrazyaboutu said:


> I dont know if someone already said something like this so, sorry if I repeat anything.
> Last year around this time my little pony had the same exact thing happen to him. It popped up out of nowhere, we got the vet out, x rays showed an abcess, farrier came out and tried to dig it out, nothing happened. Until about two months had passed since he became lame. It finally popped! Three days after it popped he was back to being perfectly fine. But it has taken forever for the hole in his foot to be grown out. He's been wearing padded shoes for about a year now :/


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

Yeah, I couldn't do that either. As for the farrier being the go to guy.. that's why I've waited this long to call my vet back. I figure the farrier's probably got the most experience there. I'm waiting to hear back from him to set up another visit.. 
When he talks about where to dig he says something about looking for "tracks".. Does anyone know what would that look like? I did notice something when I was changing the bandage today.. it looked to me like a bit of the surface was scraped off, and I assumed this was just because of all the soaking making it soft and maybe he stepped on something, but it occurs to me I don't have a clue what the "tracks" look like. 



Ladytrails said:


> I would never be brave enough to do the digging that's needed. I am lucky, though - my vet was a farrier first, and my farrier is the 'go to guy' for the abscesses in these parts. I've only had one abscess (knock wood) and it was found on the first vet visit. It was really deep, though - I could just about stick my whole thumbnail in there. Grossed out the lady who does my manicures for sure when I told her about it! ;-)


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

hammer0fjustice said:


> Was he still favoring it towards the end? I just can't understand why it would be swollen if he's walking (as well as some trotting and cantering when I lounge him) without seeming bothered by it anymore. I can certainly imagine it taking a long time to grow out though, based on the portion that I'm currently packing every day.


He was still favoring it but the meds really seemed to make it not hurt as bad. So, if he has a high enough doseage I dont see why he would be favoring it.


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

That's the thing, though.. he isn't on anything. I'm using epsom salts when I soak the hoof, and when I bandage it up I put Mag60 (magnesium sulfate - basically a paste version of epsom salts) on it. No pain meds or anything else.



Icrazyaboutu said:


> He was still favoring it but the meds really seemed to make it not hurt as bad. So, if he has a high enough doseage I dont see why he would be favoring it.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I can't see banamine helping much with abscess pain. 

High (in the hoof) abscesses can be slow and difficult. (Been there, done that, have the t-shirt a couple of times over.)
The problems occur when the abscess comes through but does not drain totally and there is still a pocket in there. The pocket can move about to a certain degree, sometimes causing pain, sometimes not. (That was how it was over simplified by my vet and farrier so I could understand it.)

You say the farrier can not carve enough which leads me to believe your horse has had quite a bit of carving done so far. The carving might simply have him tender now.

Even an abscess that pops out the coronet band can be easy to miss. The slit type opening it makes can hide in the hair and lay flat so it is not obviously.

Do you have the type of relationship with your vet or farrier that you can call them up and explain your worries? Since they have seen the X-rays of your horse and they know what is going on they can more easily help you to decide what your next step might be.






HollyBubbles said:


> That's quite wierd, that the farrier can't dig deep enough to get at it.


Not weird at all. All abscesses are not easily drained from below.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

I have never heard of the Mag 60. When we soak - it's for 10-30 minutes at a time. Daily until the abscess starts to drain. After the soak we place a poltice of the epsom salt solution and wrap over that.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I had not heard of it either, MLS. I googled it just now. It says:



> Provides soothing, temporary relief from sprains, strains and bruises in horses. Mag-60™ Paste quickly stimulates circulation to reduce swelling, stiffness and soreness and decrease muscle, tendon and joint discomfort in horses of all ages.


The ingredients are:



> Magnesium Sulfate (60%), Propylene Glycol, Glycerin, Xanthan Gum, Methyl Salicylate, Yellow 5, Blue 1.



I have always been told that it is best if you can soak 2x per day for 20 minutes each time.
After soaking the hoof is packed with some drawing agent (I usually use ichthammol) and the hoof is wrapped (I use the diaper technique, if you have a hoof boot those work well too).


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

I had him on bute before the vet came out but he seemed to have an allergic reaction (for the first time) so the vet gave me banamine. I don't know what made the difference, but within the first couple days he went from basically walking on three legs after I took him off bute to just a small limp so something helped.

I am trying to get in touch with my farrier to have him take another look, just haven't heard back since I called a few days ago. I'm pretty certain that if I call the vet he'll want to come take a look regardless, so I'm just checking around before I make that call.



Alwaysbehind said:


> I can't see banamine helping much with abscess pain.
> 
> High (in the hoof) abscesses can be slow and difficult. (Been there, done that, have the t-shirt a couple of times over.)
> The problems occur when the abscess comes through but does not drain totally and there is still a pocket in there. The pocket can move about to a certain degree, sometimes causing pain, sometimes not. (That was how it was over simplified by my vet and farrier so I could understand it.)
> ...


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Banamine and bute are not really interchangeable pain killers.

I have really found neither works well for abscess pain. Neither my vet or farrier have ever suggested adding Banamine or bute when I am treating an abscess.

Not saying you have done any harm. Just stating what I have been told.


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

This is what the vet told me to use as the drawing agent. 




Alwaysbehind said:


> I had not heard of it either, MLS. I googled it just now. It says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

Well I do know for sure the bute helped based on how he was before and after I started, and again when I stopped. 

Could be that's just how it went in his case, different horses may take to pain meds different? But do you think that could be a sign it's not an abscess? I don't have any experience with this kind of thing so I just don't know what to think.



Alwaysbehind said:


> Banamine and bute are not really interchangeable pain killers.
> 
> I have really found neither works well for abscess pain. Neither my vet or farrier have ever suggested adding Banamine or bute when I am treating an abscess.
> 
> Not saying you have done any harm. Just stating what I have been told.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

hammer0fjustice said:


> Well I do know for sure the bute helped based on how he was before and after I started, and again when I stopped.
> 
> Could be that's just how it went in his case, different horses may take to pain meds different? But do you think that could be a sign it's not an abscess? I don't have any experience with this kind of thing so I just don't know what to think.


There are also many different drawing agents. Could be that your horse is not responding to what you are using.

It may be worth x-raying again. With the couple of 'abnormal' abscesses we have worked with, when they didn't draw out the bottom, they went up. One burst at the cornet bad. The other one unfortunatley went up into the leg.


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

That's a good point, maybe a different drawing agent would be a good idea. I don't like the sound of it going into the leg.. that can't be a good thing.



mls said:


> There are also many different drawing agents. Could be that your horse is not responding to what you are using.
> 
> It may be worth x-raying again. With the couple of 'abnormal' abscesses we have worked with, when they didn't draw out the bottom, they went up. One burst at the cornet bad. The other one unfortunatley went up into the leg.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I have been known to smear the ichthammol around the coronet band too. It is messy and yucky and just not fun, but it seems to work.

Maybe try putting some of your stuff there too.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

hammer0fjustice said:


> I don't like the sound of it going into the leg.. that can't be a good thing.


It was a very unusual occurance. The vet felt terrible that he had not taken x-rays initially but there truly was no need to. We located the abscess, started the soaking and it appeared to be draining. After a week with no improvement, we took her in. The vet made the drainage area larger but there was no reason at the time to think it wouldn't react 'normally'. After another week with no improvement, we took her back in. At that time we took x-rays. The hoof would of had to be resectioned, etc and then she would of been pasture sound. Since she was a first at the gate type of horse, I couldn't do that to her.

The mare was very stubborn and very stoic. No signs of any issue and then 3 legged lame. 

Again - VERY unusal.


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I have been known to smear the ichthammol around the coronet band too. It is messy and yucky and just not fun, but it seems to work.
> 
> Maybe try putting some of your stuff there too.


I tried the ichthammol tonight (coronet and all), so we'll see if I have better results from that. Farrier called back - he'll be out Wednesday. 

These pictures aren't great, but could that crack be from the abscess finally breaking through? I just noticed this yesterday..


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Even an abscess that pops out the coronet band can be easy to miss. The slit type opening it makes can hide in the hair and lay flat so it is not obviously.


Yes, they can be very easy to miss and the amount of drainage can be very small yet provide enough relief to transform a three legged lame horse into one with just a small limp in a very short amount of time.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Do all the feet look like that? I'm not a farrier but it looks to be needing a good trim.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

What is the part that I have circled in red? Also where I have made a red arrow, it looks like frog shedding that wasn't trimmed although the heel area of the frog was trimmed. On the other hand, it looks like part of the same thing that I have circled??? Just odd, never seen anything like that. It really concerns me. Can you get better pics of her feet? What do her other feet look like?

The "crack" may be something coming through, or it could be excess sole wanting to shed out. I really want to know what that thing is at the toe, though.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Icthamol is a good 'drawing agent and so is Betadine and sugar. I like it better than anything including Icthamol and Epsom salts.

Yes, the crack can be from a drainage track. The only way to know would be to wrap it up with white cotton and duct tape and see if there is any drainage on it tomorrow.

If you do not get this straightened out very soon, I would get a second set of x-rays to compare to the first. I had this happen a few years ago. The original abcess started with a 'hot' heel nail and nearly ruined the horse before I changed horse shoers and changed Vets. It abscessed and then abscessed again. The Vet took x-rays and then tried to cut it out the first time. He cut deeper the second time and he caused more infection. When I changed Vets, the new x-rays showed a dark spot on the side of the coffin bone that indicated that it had spread into a bone infection. He had me give her Gentocin twice a day IV for a week and once a day for 3 more weeks. We had to keep her in out of mud and dirt and keep her foot wrapped. I knew there was still infection in her foot because it felt warmer early in the morning when I first went to the barn. Had I stayed with the first Vet, I probably would have either lost her or ended up with her crippled. As it was, it took nearly a year for the necrotic bone to absorb and fill back in with good bone. I doctored her for 3 months, spent over $1000.00 and could not ride her for over a year.

I'd get new x-rays to make sure you do not have a bigger problem than you started out with.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi hammer,

Someone just alerted me to this thread after your hoof pic was posted. I've taken time to read your posts on it, but haven't read everyone else's, so sorry if I repeat... Hopefully you get something useful from my comments...

Firstly, I would be very concerned at the degree & length of time of the problem, and I would at very least find another *good equine lameness* vet & farrier for second/third opinions. 

Abscesses can be just 'one off' type occurrences – eg. Horse stood on a particularly sharp rock, got a nail ***** or some such, but if they suffer them any more than once a blue moon &/or they go on for a long time, they are generally a symptom of bigger problems. Therefore if he's never had one before, that's one good sign at least. 

If you could post the xrays if poss, along with another few different angles of his foot/feet, this would be helpful for you to give more accurate ideas for further opinions from us here. 

**Disclaimer; be mindful that we don't know how good or otherwise your current professionals are, we only have a tiny bit of info here via the forum, you don't know us personally, or the amount of knowledge or experience we all have, and whether people here or otherwise do or don't, there are also many differences of opinions, even among 'experts', to weigh up, so DO NOT take anyone's advice or opinions here blindly, without educating yourself, getting a lot more info & pref other professional 1st hand opinions. In other words, take everything with a big lump of salt & use it only as food for thought to consider when you make/take further decisions.

I'm interested in why the vet started with xrays, did so many & then has diagnosed 'just' an abscess? What else did the vet say/do/check/advise? Were there any ultrasounds or such done, or only xrays? What else did they show, or did the vet suspect? It sounds like you're saying your horse is not at all lame any more? Could mean he's getting over the prob & the invasive treatment, but horses are 'hard wired' to be very stoic, so it doesn't necessarily mean all's well just because he's not showing it. The continuing inflammation could be due to the damage at the toe from digging, or who knows what else. Benamine, like Bute is an anti-inflammatory, so yes, it can help reduce *symptoms* of swelling & therefore pain of abscesses, but as (assuming it is 'just' an abscess) the inflammation is the body's way of expelling the infected tissue, suppressing it may also tend to make it go on for longer. 

While I only have that one unfocussed pic to go off(so it's only little more than a guess), it appears that his foot(feet?) may not be in too bad shape, apart from the hole at the toe, but would like to know... How frequently he is trimmed & how long ago the last trim was? It appears he's overdue for one. Is the spot at the toe proud(sticking out), as it appears? Did the farrier dig through the horn into corium, as it appears ~ the black is necrotic tissue? 

Is the frog infected at all? Can you explain, or give better pix at least, of the difference between front 3rd & rest of frog? What's the flappy looking bit at the outer wall toe on the left ~ is the outer wall 'shelly' or peeling? The cracks on his sole could be just dead sole that hasn't exfoliated naturally. The black spot on the left heel corner could be another abscess or it could be a 'seedy' spot. What is his diet & nutrition & feed management? Is he out 24/7 now?



> necessary to call the vet back out I will, but if I can do something myself I'd certainly like to try that instead. I'm still recovering from that last bill


 The money consideration is well understood(I dare say by the vast majority of us), but yes, I would be wanting to get a *good* vet & farrier/EP. Not saying your current ones aren't necessarily OK, (who knows, just because they're professionals doesn't make them nec. Good & knowledgeable), but it wouldn't hurt to have different knowledgeable professional opinions. 
Whether or not you do, I'd be keeping the wound as sterile as possible, using an antibiotic topical & keep it protected, with pads, pref also booted(RX Therapy boots are good for this purpose), to help avoid any further injury, and would keep the horse turned out 24/7 if poss/appropriate, but not 'work' or otherwise force him to exercise, particularly above a walk until the hole is well healed. 
I would not let anyone dig into the hoof capsule, particularly into sensitive tissue, unless it's a vet with an extremely good reason(generally speaking I don't think an abscess is a good reason) and the horse is kept in a sterile environment. I would not let a farrier do this at all. I don't know where you come from, but here it's also illegal for anyone other than a vet to invade live tissue.


> The farrier said he wouldn't disagree, but has had some trouble being sure of where to dig


 That's but one very good reason not to go digging around.


> The x-ray showed the spot being pretty deep in the toe,


 What made the vet sure the 'spot' was an abscess, not, for eg, separation, missing/damaged area of P3...?


> wearing through the wraps - doesn't matter how well I tape it up and I was trying to avoid the extra cost of a boot.


 Boots are cheap compared to extra cost of intensive care due to further damage. 



> He hadn't been turned out for a few days because it was so hot out, but prior to that he was turned out overnights.


 Lack of exercise, for animals built to move constantly is a common problem, effecting health & soundness in a number of ways. That could have contributed to the prob & caused it to go on & on – lack of movement = lack of circulation = lack of healing.



> but let's face it.. if I knew enough about his job to be sure, I wouldn't have had to hire him.


 Don't know about that.... I for one have a number of very knowledgeable clients who pay me to do it, because it's a hard job! Not least because if you don't understand the principles, how can you have any idea of whether or not your 'expert' at hand is worth paying, I am a firm believer in owners educating themselves as much as possible, whether or not they choose to do the job themselves or continue employing me. 


> I figure the farrier's probably got the most experience there.


 Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't assume. Farriers may or may not be well educated on physiology, as vets may or may not be well educated & experienced with equine hoof/lameness issues. Unfortunately not all of either profession are.


> When he talks about where to dig he says something about looking for "tracks"


 abscesses may or may not have 'tracks', let alone visible, obvious ones, depending on the cause, where they are, etc.



> I'm pretty certain that if I call the vet he'll want to come take a look regardless,


 Why would you want to call the vet if not to get him to see/treat the prob??


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

NorthernMama said:


> What is the part that I have circled in red? Also where I have made a red arrow, it looks like frog shedding that wasn't trimmed although the heel area of the frog was trimmed. On the other hand, it looks like part of the same thing that I have circled??? Just odd, never seen anything like that. It really concerns me. Can you get better pics of her feet? What do her other feet look like?


The part you circled is where the farrier carved out. The other part is the frog shedding; the back portion came off but the front has not.


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

loosie said:


> I'm interested in why the vet started with xrays, did so many & then has diagnosed 'just' an abscess? What else did the vet say/do/check/advise? Were there any ultrasounds or such done, or only xrays? What else did they show, or did the vet suspect? It sounds like you're saying your horse is not at all lame any more?


He did several xrays due to the amount of swelling and lameness to be sure it wasn't a small fracture or something. They all came out fine aside from the dark spot in the foot. And yes, he no longer appears lame at all.




loosie said:


> Could mean he's getting over the prob & the invasive treatment, but horses are 'hard wired' to be very stoic, so it doesn't necessarily mean all's well just because he's not showing it. The continuing inflammation could be due to the damage at the toe from digging, or who knows what else. Benamine, like Bute is an anti-inflammatory, so yes, it can help reduce *symptoms* of swelling & therefore pain of abscesses, but as (assuming it is 'just' an abscess) the inflammation is the body's way of expelling the infected tissue, suppressing it may also tend to make it go on for longer.


This is my concern - that he may still have problems that he is not showing. The farrier did not dig very deep, so I don't think it would be causing the inflammation, however as I said before I'm no hoof expert so I could be wrong. 

He is not on any type of anti-inflammatory anymore (since August 9, give or take a day).




loosie said:


> How frequently he is trimmed & how long ago the last trim was? It appears he's overdue for one. Is the spot at the toe proud(sticking out), as it appears? Did the farrier dig through the horn into corium, as it appears ~ the black is necrotic tissue?
> 
> Is the frog infected at all? Can you explain, or give better pix at least, of the difference between front 3rd & rest of frog? What's the flappy looking bit at the outer wall toe on the left ~ is the outer wall 'shelly' or peeling? What is his diet & nutrition & feed management? Is he out 24/7 now?


He is usually trimmed every 8 weeks, and his last trim as about 4 weeks ago. The spot on the toe is where the farrier was digging. 
As I said, though, he did not dig very deep; there is no necrotic tissue. The front back part of the frog has shed a bit, and the front has not yet. The outer wall is peeling - this is quite common for him. 
His diet consists of Purina Strategy feed and hay, some grass but there isn't much grazing available in the turn out. He does get turn out, but does not stay out 24/7.





loosie said:


> I would be wanting to get a *good* vet & farrier/EP.
> 
> What made the vet sure the 'spot' was an abscess, not, for eg, separation, missing/damaged area of P3...?
> 
> ...


I will certainly look into a second opinion after they both come out again, unless this is cleared up very soon.

I guess I don't know what made him so sure of it being an abscess. He may have given further reasoning that I don't recall, but again, I am not experienced in this. I've been a horse owner for about 6 years but have had little complication during that time. I'm certainly not that person that goes out and buys a horse with no knowledge at all, but I'm also no expert when it comes to injuries.

I do plan on getting the boots, but the hoof is staying clean the way I've been wrapping it. By the time I get to him to change the bandage he's hardly worn through at the toe and it's still clean.



loosie said:


> I for one have a number of very knowledgeable clients who pay me to do it, because it's a hard job! Not least because if you don't understand the principles, how can you have any idea of whether or not your 'expert' at hand is worth paying


I was speaking for myself - if I knew how to do the job, I would do it. Not to say it's easy, I'm sure it is a hard job, but I would do it if I could. I admit, it should know much more about it than I do, and I plan on learning more. It's just difficult to find the time. I work full time and go to school full time, and still have the home/family thing to take care of in addition to my horse. 



loosie said:


> Why would you want to call the vet if not to get him to see/treat the prob??


I was simply answering a question. I was asked if I had thought about asking the vet if he thought it was something he should come out for. I know that if I call him he will want to come out. Hard for him to give me any advice without looking at it, I know.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

This is not how a hoof should look 4 weeks after a trim. The walls are so long it's no wonder he tends to chip. If this is the norm I would be getting another farrier or at least having an in depth discussion with the current one.


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## hammer0fjustice (Sep 12, 2011)

natisha said:


> This is not how a hoof should look 4 weeks after a trim. The walls are so long it's no wonder he tends to chip. If this is the norm I would be getting another farrier or at least having an in depth discussion with the current one.


This isn't what the others look like; I thought it had something to do with all the soaking.


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## missyclare (Sep 14, 2011)

Boy! Abscesses have got to be the bane of our horsekeeping existance! This may not be an abscess, but other soft tissue problem....the swelling has me suspect. 
Is there anyway that you can post pictures? Better still, the xrays. Abscesses cannot usually be detected in xrays, unless they are a good digital ones. So, I'd like to see what was so definitive towards an abscess that the vet saw. The digging just saddens me....greatly taking longer to heal. 

The best way that we can help you is to show us what you see.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

hammer0fjustice said:


> The part you circled is where the farrier carved out. The other part is the frog shedding; the back portion came off but the front has not.


I would really like to see a better pic of this. It doesn't look concave, it looks like it is sticking out. And why is it black? Can you get better focused pics of the same view, the side, the front and also from the side with the hoof off the ground?

I agree too that 8 weeks is a long time to go between trims for most horses. He should not be flaking at the walls -- that's a sure sign that he is overdue. 

Loosie, bless her soul, also noticed that black in the heel on the left side of the photo -- hmmm...


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## bntnail (Feb 3, 2011)

hammer0fjustice said:


>


Looks lik a sub-solar prolapse. Sole won't close if this is the case. Ask vet.:wink:
If so then a shoe and hospital plate are in order. You'll also need caustic powder and a tratment plan outlined by a vet and farrier.

You may want a round of antibiotics as well if not already on them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

hammer0fjustice said:


> He is usually trimmed every 8 weeks, and his last trim as about 4 weeks ago. The spot on the toe is where the farrier was digging.
> As I said, though, he did not dig very deep; there is no necrotic tissue.


Bit OT but I think 8 weeks is generally(they're all individuals) too long between trims and if that's 4 weeks, then that may be a good scedule for this horse. *Of course, only have one pic to go on & this is on the assumption that the farrier did a good job 4 weeks ago & hooves were trimmed appropriate for environment, as to length, etc. 

If you have a look at a sagitally cut hoof(you can find pics online), you will see just how little 'depth' there is, even in many healthy hooves. I don't like to assume, just from one blurry pic, but it does look like he dug through into the corium to me, in which case the black is indeed dead tissue, unless perhaps you've put some black goop on it? That it looks proud(bulging) of the sole is also a great concern to me, which is why I wouldn't personally be mucking around, lameness or not, but finding a good vet & farrier ASAP. It may well even need more than you can provide at home even with good vet's help(depends on environment, management, time you have...), in order to heal, if that's the case.



> The outer wall is peeling - this is quite common for him.
> His diet consists of Purina Strategy feed and hay,


Diet/nutrition is OT too(altho of course, good nutrition helps health/healing), so won't go into detail, but peeling or shelly hooves are generally a sign of nutritional deficiencies/imbalance, &/or other diet probs. Esp feeding pelleted or 'hard feeds', it's important to feed little & often(min a few meals daily), with fibre, pref that gives something to chew, so i'd be feeding a small amount of whatever with a large scoop or few of chaff or such, as well as the free choice hay.



> experienced in this. I've been a horse owner for about 6 years but have had little complication during that time. I'm certainly not that person that goes out and buys a horse with no knowledge at all, but I'm also no expert


Yeah, didn't mean to imply you were ignorant or anything, but injuries or otherwise, it's SO important for horse owners to educate themselves the best they can, at least on the principles & factors that effect the health & soundness of the horse. Another reason is that while you may well have a good vet & farrier, preventative 'medicine' is the best and knowing how/why to manage, feed, etc in certain ways can largely help you avoid these issues & having to pay the vets in the first place.



> I do plan on getting the boots, but the hoof is staying clean the way I've been wrapping it. By the time I get to him to change the bandage he's hardly worn through at the toe and it's still clean.


Not just cleanliness, but protection for the damaged area that is my concern. If the spot is indeed proud, I'd also suggest a pad with a hole in that area, to releive pressure on it. However, I repeat, I'd advise veterinary attention & am suggesting boots & other measures in absence of further medical care, of which vets may or may not advise differently.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bntnail said:


> Looks lik a sub-solar prolapse. Sole won't close if this is the case. Ask vet.:wink:
> If so then a shoe and hospital plate are in order. You'll also need caustic powder and a tratment plan outlined by a vet and farrier.


I should have read this before replying:wink: - what I was thinking, but you put it much more plainly!


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

I just want to say this forum is so lucky to have great hoof experts like Loosie and BTN here. Too many horse owners believe they have great farriers even when they have problems such as abcess, swelling, etc. 
These things are all signs you need to reconsider whether your farrier is doing their job properly. 
If your vet isnt an Equine specialist please try to find one that can assist you.
Please listen to these guys and have a certified farrier in to take a look at your horse right away. If your farrier is doing a great job already he wont mind having his work put under the microscope for a time or two.
Go to a farm that has good quality show horses (who are likely to use great farriers)and ask them to suggest someone if you dont have access to a list of good farriers. And most of all do your own research so you have some knowledge about the problem. It will help you alot.
Best of luck


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## Royal Pine Buck (May 28, 2011)

is he on stall rest or limited turnout? movement is better for abscesses especially if not lame.

Dillon developed an abcess in his hind after getting a stone bruise (it took 2 weeks to fully develop to toe touch lameness and swelling up the entire leg practically overnight)

the vet came out,drained and wrapped it and told me to re-do it every 24 hours. well...at first his legs looked fine the next day then it seemed every other day it would swell up a little then go down after soaking. i soaked it in epsom salts. i found that instead of of softening the hoof to allow drainage the epsom salts actually hardened it (since it is salt and salt dries out things) 

so i started an apple cider vinegar soak and it seemed much better. he did stay a bit puffy in that area of fetlock for awhile after , it got better with work to tighten up. it could also be stocking up in that leg if he isn't using it as much as the other one if he is still a bit tender on it. (even if it doesn't show when working ) he could be resting it cause it feels funny therefore not moving it as much.

also if the abcess doesn't drain fully it can become problematic again. 

best thing for an abscess is to keep the hoof moving (put a hoof boot on) and turn him out in a small area. to allow re-asorbtion of the blood and increase circulation to heal the area.

as long as he isn't lame...i would work him. 

dillon stayed a bit puffy in his fetlock for awhile after his abscess. work will help.

edited to add: i didn't read the other replies. so i might be behind on things... hope everything goes well


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for the plug Annie! After that I'm sorry to be pedantic about a couple of your comments. Not trying to pick, just provide more 'food for thought'...

I would include 'not any certified farrier' - I'm sure it depends on where you're from as to base level & specifics of a certified farrier's education, not to mention their experience, attitude & ability to keep learning, etc(rather than being set in their ways of whatever they learned decades ago at school, regardless of further developments). I would also include in that breath 'or a *well educated, experienced & successful* hoof care practitioner'.:wink:

In my experience, unfortunately, show horses are no more likely(& sometimes less) than any 'backyard hack' to have educated owners, good farriers & good feet.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Since he was three legged lame, was soaked and wrapped and has had a great deal of relief, wouldn't it be the general assumption that his abscess has ruptured?

My TB has recently gone through a horrific abscess ordeal leaving his entire heel looking like a gunshot wound. We were soaking and wrapping twice a day for 10 days before it busted. I was checking his feet and soaking and everything but if he hadn't had some relief from pain, I wouldn't have even looked at the heel...as we were expecting it at the toe. He went from being completely 3 legged lame to gingerly walking around on it...that was when the first one had ruptured. 5 more have followed. 

Is your boy still in pain? I think that sole crack certainly looks big enough to relieve the pressure of an abscess.


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