# Horse racing is not cruel!!!!!!



## Spastic_Dove

First off, I hate Peta. 

I grew up around race horses, so I understand the treatment that goes into these horses. But I do think that it needs to be regulated. They should NOT be racing two year olds just like they should not be riding 2 year olds in reining cow horse or whatever discipline. 
There needs to be regulations on the whole January 1st birthday thing too, IMO. 
There are a lot of good owners are just like you described, they love their horses and they hate to see anything bad happen to them. 
But, there are a LOT of bad owners too. The owners are buissinessmen, not horse lovers and when a horse breaks down or isn't making the cut, they drop the horse. This happens a lot more in horse racing, since it is so hard to get that triple crown winner everyone wants. 

So long story short, there are problems in every discipline. Racing is not cruel like PETA and a lot of people think, but it does need to become regulated. Some tracks are really taking a step in the right direction as far as abusive trainers/owners go and hopefully they will begin to take steps to regulate the ages/distances.


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## StormyBlues

Yes, I do agree on the Jan. 1 birthday thing. That is why we were praying Ariel's foal wouldn't be premeaturly born in December, cause then it would be one! I have never once met an owner that does that kind of (excuse me) crap. Around here we really care. It's more people in the big racing states.


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## tempest

It goes the same with what happened to Eight Bells, Big Brown, and Barbaro.
PETA has no right to blame Eight Bells's jockey or trainer for what happened to her. It was a freak incident, it could happen to any horse. Eight Bells's jockey did not push her too hard. If Eight Bells hadn't felt well enough to run that day, she wouldn't have and no force in the world could have made her.


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## tempest

Sorry if any of you take offense to that statement. My apologies if you do.


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## Spastic_Dove

Yeah, I was in the big race states so I've seen some pretty crap owners. It's not everyone. 

And for what Tempest said, those horses LOVE to run, I've seen horses that love their job want to keep doing it even though they're injured. It wasnt the jockeys fault or anything,I agree, it was because that horse was built like a twig. 

PETA just aggravates me. People don't understand horse racing or rodeo and only get to see the bad accidents/people through PETA. It's not a fair image of the industry.


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## StormyBlues

Yea, theses horses LOVE running, Ariel does it almost daily in her pasture for fun! She loves running around!


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## smrobs

I have nothing against horse racing itself because it is an amazing sport but I do not agree with a lot of the things that they do. With any discipline, I believe that they should wait until the horse is at least 3 before asking for any strenuous work. They need to start breeding the TB's for more longevity and toughness of the breed instead of streamlining them by breeding smaller bones and flatter feet with more muscle. That, I believe, is the basis of all the problems with the racing industry. Most of the time, the horses' bodies are just not built to withstand that much pressure and that is why we see horses breaking down in nearly every race. I understand that bone fractures, bowed tendons, and blown ligaments happen but how often is normal? In my mind, they need to start breeding a sturdier line that will last longer and be tougher even if they loose a little bit of speed. Like Big Brown; yeah, he runs fast and well but he has a serious foot problem that may end up being genetic. They are putting him out to stud where that abnormality could be passed on to hundreds of foals and will soon be spread through the entire breed, weakening it. I love to watch them run but it just breaks my heart to know that many of them suffer career or even life ending injuries. Anyway, that is my rant on horseracing and I meant no offense if anyone gets offended.


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## Kentucky

"The owners are buissinessmen, not horse lovers and when a horse breaks down or isn't making the cut, they drop the horse. This happens a lot more in horse racing, since it is so hard to get that triple crown winner everyone wants."

If they were not business people how would they feed their families and the others would depend on them. Ranchers, and horse breeders of any breeder are the same way. If they didn't want a Triple Crown winner, why are they in the race business. The ones who are good to their horses usually have more winners than the ones who * only *care about the money. 

i hate PETA too.


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## StormyBlues

Yea, most breeders breed for quantity more than quantity. I agree that we really need to look at confo and stuff. Maybe we could help the future of the buissness!


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## smrobs

I would be absolutely no help because I only own 1 TB (a rescue) and have no intention of ever getting another. They are just not my kind of horse.


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## Kentucky

if you meant: most breeder are breeding more for quantity instead of quality. I am not 100% that is true.

I feel too many breeders are breeding for stronger and lighter horses is faster ones and they are hurting the breedby taking this too far than I agree with you. Same thing is happening in other horse events too.


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## StormyBlues

yea that's what I ment. lol can you tell im tired?


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## wild_spot

"Horse racing is not cruel" Is a pretty blanket statement. In theory, it's not cruel. But a lot of the practices and training that goes on in the industry, is definately cruel. It's the same as any discipline, and there will always be people on both sides of the fence.

PETA do some good work... But they take most things way too far. An example is Mulesing in sheep... A day or two of pain as a baby to me equals out the pain of being eating alive from the inside by maggots, don't you think?


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## Spastic_Dove

Kentucky said:


> "The owners are buissinessmen, not horse lovers and when a horse breaks down or isn't making the cut, they drop the horse. This happens a lot more in horse racing, since it is so hard to get that triple crown winner everyone wants."
> 
> If they were not business people how would they feed their families and the others would depend on them. Ranchers, and horse breeders of any erbreeder are the same way. If they didn't want a Triple Crown winner, why are they in the race business. The ones who are good to their horses usually have more winners than the ones who * only *care about the money.
> 
> i hate PETA too.


What I meant was they love horses yeah, but they start racing young and stuff because they have to to stay competitive in the buissiness even if that should change. There are tons of OTTBs just because you breed tons and half of them are too slow to be competitive so they get ditched. I agree that those who care usually do better. If that makes sense.


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## Spastic_Dove

There really isn't a single thing I think PETA does right. 
But that's a whole 'nother topic. 

EEK double post


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## wild_spot

*Shrugs* I feel that it's worth acknowledging that they have created better situations for a lot fo animals. But they are a very extremist group, and are very blind to any other viewpoints. They sometimes inadvertantly do harm to the animals they are trying to help by ignoring a lot of the information out there. 

If we want to talk more about PETA we can start a new post for it :]


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## Spastic_Dove

I think that would be better than hijacking =P


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## StormyBlues

yea, some people just don't do it right, like in one of the races today there was a horse that seemed lame. And then there is one of the top trainer's that starts his horses to early and runs them to death. We don't like him for that and he cheated my Grandfather's buissness partner(RIP to them both) out of lots of money.


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## wild_spot

Exactly, Stormy. There will always be those who abuse animals for their own end, in any breed and any discipline. Its what the governing bodies/influential people within that breed/discipline do to prevent it that makes the difference, in my opinion. That is why racing has such a bad rap... There are not many PUBLICLY VISIBLE corporations/governing bodies standing up to stop the bad behaviour.


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## RockinTheBit07

I am not a fan of either PETA or horse racing.... 
There are sooo many TBs that need homes and often people wont take one because of the leg issues most come with. Racing a horse usually only lasts like a year or two and then what happens to those horses? Get sent on a truck to become dog food. Sorry but I have an OTTB. I agree they need to breed for better horses not ones with horrible feet...pretty stupid in my eyes! Joe has this crack in the middle of his front (i want to say right) hoove that is genetic, I cant get rid of it, the farrier says that a lot of TBs he has dealt with have similar problems, they have bad feet. I think they breed too much of the wrong type of horses (if that makes sense! lol), there should be a law and liscensing to breed horses. But I also agree that no not all race horse owners are bad people. Something needs to be done with horse racing but not by PETA's hands......


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## StormyBlues

hmmmm some truth, but not all TBs have bad legs and feet. And also, horses race until the age of nine or ten.


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## mayfieldk

A lot of blanket statements in your first post, so i'll correct them.
Yes, horse racing can be cruel. Ever been to the philly track? And I'm not talking about watching, but in the stalls. It's nasty. These horses are stalled all day except for one hour when they run, 90% of ALL RACEHORSES have ulcers, and I know at the Philly track, drugs are rampant.
Race horses aren't started at two, they're often started at 1 or 1 and half, and RACED at two. Raced at two means they have to be trained and order to race. All of the Race TBs we got in at school to break and train were a year old. 
'The owners love their horses, always.'
No, they don't. Perhaps you need to meet some other owners, but there are a LOT of owners that don't care about the horse, they just care about the money.
'yes there are acedents, but none more than in eventing, jumping, barrel racing, and pole bending. '

Very big blanket statement, also VERY incorrect. "Around 800 racehorses die each year from fatal injuries suffered on US racetracks. An additional number of approximately 3,566 sustain injuries so bad that they cannot finish their races."
Huh, that's a lot. These are also the best guesses possible, because the Jockey Club REFUSES to publish details on how many horses actually die. Well, isn't that interesting!

For eventing, jumping, barrel racing? I can't find a number above a 100, and that's during competition. For eventing, I found '19 horses' for 2007-2008.

I think that racing can be done correctly, so that there is as little risk to the horse and rider as possible, but please don't think that the whole of racing is pretty. It's not--too much money involved.


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## StormyBlues

mayfieldk said:


> A lot of blanket statements in your first post, so i'll correct them.
> Yes, horse racing can be cruel. Ever been to the philly track? And I'm not talking about watching, but in the stalls. It's nasty. These horses are stalled all day except for one hour when they run, 90% of ALL RACEHORSES have ulcers, and I know at the Philly track, drugs are rampant.
> Race horses aren't started at two, they're often started at 1 or 1 and half, and RACED at two. Raced at two means they have to be trained and order to race. All of the Race TBs we got in at school to break and train were a year old.
> 'The owners love their horses, always.'
> No, they don't. Perhaps you need to meet some other owners, but there are a LOT of owners that don't care about the horse, they just care about the money.
> 'yes there are acedents, but none more than in eventing, jumping, barrel racing, and pole bending. '
> 
> Very big blanket statement, also VERY incorrect. "Around 800 racehorses die each year from fatal injuries suffered on US racetracks. An additional number of approximately 3,566 sustain injuries so bad that they cannot finish their races."
> Huh, that's a lot. These are also the best guesses possible, because the Jockey Club REFUSES to publish details on how many horses actually die. Well, isn't that interesting!
> 
> For eventing, jumping, barrel racing? I can't find a number above a 100, and that's during competition. For eventing, I found '19 horses' for 2007-2008.
> 
> I think that racing can be done correctly, so that there is as little risk to the horse and rider as possible, but please don't think that the whole of racing is pretty. It's not--too much money involved.


 hmmmm, lots of horses are stalled all day, so that really has nothing to do with the races. I have never heard of a track in philly, hence the condition of it. low level track, no horse care. Have you ever been to a real track? Oaklawn, Keenland, Churchill, Santa Anita? Have you ever met owners of the horses? I would suspect not because I know LOTS of owners and most of them really care about their horses. So do the trainers. Alot of trainers really don't start their horses that early and most people don't let them. And people make a big deal about this because one horse dies. It is sad yes, but how many cry for the horses that are put out of their poor misary? I'd rather a horse be put down than live a life in pain.


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## mayfieldk

First of all, Smarty Jones came out of the Philly track.  So it's a high enough level for a Kentucky Derby/Preakness winner to come out of there. Don't denounce it if you don't know about it--this happens at ALL tracks.

And yes, a lot of owners care, but not all of them, and you said always.

'lot of trainers really don't start their horses that early and most people don't let them.'

Incorrect. Most Derby horses need to be ready for it at three, and many if not all have 2-year old starts. Which means they are broke before two.

'And people make a big deal about this because one horse dies.'

Or, 800 on the track, with another 3,000+ who can't finish the race. That's not 'one horse'.


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## Spastic_Dove

Philly track is a big enough racetrack. I have spent time at santa anita and I have to agree with pretty much everything mayfieldk. A lot of the crap owners LOVE their horses. but only when they're winning. They are a means to financial gains to these people. 

Those horses start training at one. How else do they start racing as a two year old?


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## StormyBlues

I swear..... We always love our horses, no matter if they win or not. They are a big part of our life. Alot of people do. And they might start training at 1, but they don't get backed until two and race later on at winter tracks. Some horses only race once at the age of 2. And also if money is such a BIG part of this indsustry, then why are most trainers and owners strugalling and broke?


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## StormyBlues

Oh, and Smarty also did most of his racing and training in AR at oaklawn. He beacame famous THERE not Philly


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## Spastic_Dove

Not everyone in horses love thier horses. I think that is undebatable. 

And I don't think that you can argue that even breezing a 2 year old is healthy for them. These horses are not built to withstand the level of work they do. They're raced too early and for too long of distanes. 

Horse racing is not in and of itself cruel, but there are many things that need to change in the industry to protect the horses. 

There are PLENTY of people who try and dip into the horse racing industry and don't make it.


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## StormyBlues

But tell me this, how is racing on a track any different than running around in a feild? Horses do that when they are two. They don't say "oh, my bones are too fragile, I shouldn't run!" It's pretty much the same thing, only carring a really light rider.


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## Spastic_Dove

Horses running in a field do it for short periods of time of their own violation. They do not have the added weight of a rider (which light or not still effects their movement and balance). 

Riding on a track they are put into a fitting schedule and run for longer periods of time, pushed on the track, carry a rider. Horses jump things out in the field, but you wouldn't be jumping a two year old. Just because they do it when they are out playing doesn't mean it's a good idea to push them past what they are physically (and mentally) ready for.


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## Spyder

StormyBlues said:


> hmmmm, lots of horses are stalled all day, so that really has nothing to do with the races. I have never heard of a track in philly, hence the condition of it. low level track, no horse care. Have you ever been to a real track? Oaklawn, Keenland, Churchill, Santa Anita? Have you ever met owners of the horses? I would suspect not because I know LOTS of owners and most of them really care about their horses. So do the trainers. Alot of trainers really don't start their horses that early and most people don't let them. And people make a big deal about this because one horse dies. It is sad yes, but how many cry for the horses that are put out of their poor misary? I'd rather a horse be put down than live a life in pain.


I personally have serious doubts about your race horse knowledge. I have found inconsistancy after inconsistancy in so many of your threads and the posts following this post I am quoting is simply showing to me this lack of knowledge. There is nothing wrong with not knowing something but to post about something you have little knowledge of is not going to make you sound credible when you actually do post about something you know.

I am not a TB trainer by any shot but I have worked on the backtrack of Woodbine and do know several owners and breeding farms.


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## StormyBlues

Spyder said:


> I personally have serious doubts about your race horse knowledge. I have found inconsistancy after inconsistancy in so many of your threads and the posts following this post I am quoting is simply showing to me this lack of knowledge. There is nothing wrong with not knowing something but to post about something you have little knowledge of is not going to make you sound credible when you actually do post about something you know.
> 
> I am not a TB trainer by any shot but I have worked on the backtrack of Woodbine and do know several owners and breeding farms.


 Hmmmmmmmm, ok why don't you go look up Bob Houlthus, he has said I know more about horses than him. Why don't you go and see that my grandfather and his buissness partner were on the top owner list at one point? Why don't you come and see that I have learned everything there is to know about the racing buissness from some of the most influential people in this buissness. I doubt you could name all the fillies that have won the derby. I doubt that you know half of the trainers in this buissness. You don't. I know the ins and outs of this buissness, because I was taught. And never heard of Woodbine, and if you knew anything about racing it is the backSIDE. not "backtrack". And how am I "inconsistant"?


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## Spastic_Dove

...I am trying to think of how to respond to that without violating some sort of HF rule. 

Did you start this thread to prove to people or did you start it to learn? Because if it was to prove then i guess there's been really no reason for me to respond like I have. 
But I think it is important to realize none of us are ever done learning. Not you, not me, none of are. 

I also am wondering how you know the ins and outs of a buissiness but used the "they do it in a field so it must be okay" excuse that I hear a lot of people unfamiliar with horses use. 

I don't mean that to be an insult btw, hopefully it doesn't come across as one.


EDIT: Woodbine is a canadian track (toronto) if I'm not mistaken. And I've heard many of my nz family call the backside the backtrack so perhaps it's the same in canada


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## Spyder

StormyBlues said:


> Hmmmmmmmm, ok why don't you go look up Bob Houlthus, he has said I know more about horses than him.


I did and since I don't live in the US I had to do a MAJOR search for a seemingly minor trainer.

I did find him....he did very well winning a light and shifty Bishop Rock Race off San Diego...that is a boat race though.




> Why don't you go and see that my grandfather and his buissness partner were on the top owner list at one point?


Interesting that everyone knows you but you have no website for all your TBs..............



> Why don't you come and see that I have learned everything there is to know about the racing buissness from some of the most influential people in this buissness.


If you have learned EVERYTHING why ask us about "race Horse Training" in one of your earlier threads? You have already shown you don't know everything in this thread and you didn't even know that there are dilutes in TBs.




> I doubt you could name all the fillies that have won the derby. I doubt that you know half of the trainers in this buissness. You don't. I know the ins and outs of this buissness, because I was taught. And never heard of Woodbine, and if you knew anything about racing it is the backSIDE. not "backtrack". And how am I "inconsistant"?


 
You never hear of Woodbine where secretariat ran his last race winning through the fog. 

I rest my case.


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## farmpony84

I'm going to lock this thread as I feel it has run it's course.


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