# ONE person does something bad and we ALL get blamed.



## eaferg

Ok, those pictures are pretty bad. But seriously? There are more of us that DON'T ride with our horse's heads cranked back.

And, sorry if I shouldn't have posted this.


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## TwisterRush

wow. 
That is all i can say.. is wow, there is no words to describe how hurtful that video is, Not all equestrian's are like that, and i feel like they are blaming the whole equestrian community. I would never do anything of that sort to my horse, and anyone who does, need's to be more educated..

I do find that they need to more educated on tack and equipment, (person who made video) About martingale's and whips and spurs etc, they only harm, if they are used inappropriatly. They were not made to specifically inflict harm upon an animal, or living animal.

Hopefully people know better than that


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## eaferg

^^
Exactly my thoughts.

I don't think that bits and spurs need to be removed from the horse horse world AT ALL. However, think the equestrian world needs more education as to HOW to appropriately use some equipment. Or, maybe, if you don't know how to properly use it, DON'T!


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## Vidaloco

I won't say this happens only in the competitive arenas but I'm betting its the majority. 
When cash and ribbons are on the line, anything goes.


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## eaferg

^^ 
Yes, I've never shown horses but I see it in other livestock competitions just as well. I wouldn't doubt it for a second. It's the only way to win nowadays, so why not?

Sad, sad.


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## Fancy

Most of those pictures were just horses caught with their mouths open...


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## kevinshorses

This video makes me gag! If I took pictures of anybody riding I could take them out of context and show the person "abusing" thier horse. Some of those pictures were of people falling off, how is that abuse? In the end the point of the video was to get you to join a bridleless and barefoot club (pretty **** stupid in my opinion) and I'm sure they have something to sell.


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## Fancy

kevinshorses said:


> This video makes me gag! If I took pictures of anybody riding I could take them out of context and show the person "abusing" thier horse. Some of those pictures were of people falling off, how is that abuse? In the end the point of the video was to get you to join a bridleless and barefoot club (pretty **** stupid in my opinion) and I'm sure they have something to sell.


 
Amen to this!


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## Kashmere

I don't have anything against Bridleless and barefoot clubs!
It's a good thing in my opinion.
But heck, NOT with advertising like THIS.

Frankly, even without a bridle and barefoot, you can still abuse your horse.

I don't think any club/group/.. that does a specific activity washes it's hands in inocense (I hope I spelled that right! Not english by nature)


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## Gidji

Don't get me started on this video.
Some of those horses were on loose reins in a snaffle.
The rest were being held in proper head carriage and were either chewing on the bit, or yawning.
Very few were cruel.


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## smrobs

Bravo, Kevin. 

It is always the "you must ride bitless or you are abusing your horse" groups that post vids like that. They always take pictures of horrible riders or pictures that are out of context or purposefully abusive people and lump all of us in together. The fact that they always seem to leave out is that a person with bad hands and an aggressive nature toward horses will still have bad hands and an aggressive nature even without a bit. Just as much damage can be done by certain "bitless" options as it can with any bit. They focus so much on how the BIT is evil instead of focusing their energy on educating the people who don't know how to ride properly on the correct way to use a bit or spurs. I have used spurs for years but not once have I ever drawn blood or so much as left a tiny mark from them. Videos like this just make me sick.


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## Dartanion

eaferg said:


> Or, maybe, if you don't know how to properly use it, DON'T!


I agree, for the longest time when I was 13 people told me to use spurs on a lesson horse to get him to move out and I never did because 1. I had never used spurs before and 2. not even my horse?!?!


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

What a load of bull sh*t


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## ShannonSevenfold

Fancy said:


> Most of those pictures were just horses caught with their mouths open...


That's just what I was thinking. :? Or they don't show the whole picture or something.


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## iridehorses

Although some of those pictures may be abuse, none show the whole picture and are, therefore, inaccurate. That video reminds me of the type used by PITA and other radical organizations when trying to prove a point. There is no doubt that abuse exists but not showing the whole picture is creative editing.


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## dressagexlee

I hate ignorant people like this. I also hate people like Anky Van Grunsven for making us look bad. Thanks stupid people, you've made my life.


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## gypsygirl

did anyone check out that website ?


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## CuriousFT

I cant even begin to count the amount of times I have been accused for abusing my horses when "friends" have come to my house. They see our crops, dressage whips, driving whips, lunging whips, spurs , the mikmar combination bit used for my pmu and assume they are all torture devices. If these are all used correctly at the right time and situation they can be extremely useful. Seriously, people should learn how to educate themselves.


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## luvmyperch

Absolutely ridiculous. I have also had "other" types of horsepeople shake their head at me because I am a "traditional" horseperson who uses tack and is interested in competing. In no way does that mean that I, or others at my barn, abuse our horses!! Complete crap to promote an agenda (and I'm sure they're selling something too).


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## AnnaLover

Abusing your horse is kicking the heck out of it without spurs, it bruises up their sides and causes more damage than if you used spurs correctly. That's how it is in my case with my stubborn little mare ;P Spurs are a better alternative than kicking and bruising your horse, IMO.


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## Lis

I'd like to see them try to do one of the big cross country courses like Badminton in a bitless bridle. I think a lot of them looked like horses caught in the middle of yawning and neighing. Don't see how falling off is abuse either. How can they say using a bit or spurs causes cribbing as well, don't know why that was in there. Stupid video made by scaremongers who have something to sell


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## MacabreMikolaj

You know what I find most sad? It's videos like this that ALSO get bitless/barefoot people lumped together. It creates a bad name for them, and much like PETA, actually brings people against them. Keep in mind that just like the video is blatantly ignorant about lumping us "regular" equestrians together, it works both ways and not all bitless/barefoot people are this ignorant or radical.

I have no problem with people doing the "natural" thing, but don't you dare tell me I abuse my horses because I don't. I hate people with an agenda that think they have the right to force it on the world. It's the same as PETA - if they actually focused all that energy on something with a purpose to ACTUALLY end cruelty instead of making the world hate them with their radical activism, they probably could make a real difference. Instead, people are against it on principal alone and it's all wasted. :-(


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## JumpingTheMoon

I have to agree with you MacabreMikolaj. 

Honestly, once the video really got going my first thought was "Is this another PETA fest? Sheesh." Worse it's a club. Just out of principle I wouldn't go near them with a ten foot pole. Fanatics. Thank God most of us have a brain and realise that it's just propaganda


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## luvmyperch

If you visit the website, its actually just some trainer/farrier promoting her services. That's kinda sad if you have to resort to measures like that to get business.


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## GoldRush

"...If I took pictures of anybody riding I could take them out of context and show the person "abusing" thier horse..."

Amen to that! Context is the key to understanding...
"Some of those pictures were of people falling off, how is that abuse?" 

Oh, God...if it is abuse, then I should be behind bars! ****!


"...In the end the point of the video was to get you to join a bridleless and barefoot club (pretty **** stupid in my opinion) and I'm sure they have something to sell..."

Amen again! My horse is barefoot, not because I have any bad feelings about shoeing, but because Sunny's feet are so great without shoes, I couldn't find anyone willing to shoe him! Unfortunately, he has steep hooves, and EasyBoots don't stay on. So, he is shoeless/barefoot because it just is right for me and him.
And don't get me started on PETA! I am all for stopping abuse of any creature, and have done more than my share of resuceing animals. I worked with vets, and helped pass the seatbelt law in CA for dogs in pick-up trucks. I speak up and out against cruelty and abuse when I see it, loudly and ceaselessly. But, I do eat meat, wear leather, and give vaccinations. I do keep my animals in safe fenced areas, and corral my horse. And I don't think animals should be free to run amok and rampant. I will jpin the SPCA but never ever PETA!

"There is no whoa in a snaffle"


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## BaliDoll

Some of the dressage pics were Rollkur-esque to me, which makes me sad, but other than that this video is bogus.


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## Vidaloco

kevinshorses said:


> This video makes me gag! If I took pictures of anybody riding I could take them out of context and show the person "abusing" thier horse. Some of those pictures were of people falling off, how is that abuse? In the end the point of the video was to get you to join a bridleless and barefoot club (pretty **** stupid in my opinion) and I'm sure they have something to sell.


 
Although I agree the video puts a bad light on several things, I must say I resent having the "barefoot and bridle-less clubs" being called stupid. 
Please don't bunch an entire group of people because of the way they keep and or train their horses and call them stupid.
Personally I keep my horses barefoot and have started both of my fillies in bitless bridles with full intention of working up to a bit. I saw nothing stupid about it. 
__________________


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## eventerdrew

oh my goodness. Obviously this person really doesn't know what the heck they are posting about. So, I know one of the riders in that video, HE WAS GOING DOWN A DROP BANK ON CROSS COUNTRY. Of course he is leaning back and the horse's head is low! GEEEZE!!!!! UGH. They just had to go out and find some people doing rollkur, a person jumping with a hard horse to ride, and poor excuses for cowboys. 

idiot for whoever posted this video.


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## Vidaloco

YouTube - SHARKonlineorg's Channel
Want to see real abuse?


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## GoldRush

NO! NO, you really DO NOT want to see that video!!!!!!! horrid


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## ridergirl23

UGH, i absalutely cannot stand when people post videos like that, i actually want to show them wha REAL abuse is. you can abuse a horse bridless too. and spurs are just an extension of the leg, NOT meant to be abused. you can abuse anything, with anything. and like evryone else said, most of those thigs werent even abuse. 

that rodeo video is terrible! but i would also like to point out, not all rodeos are like that, at all the rodeos ive seen the animals got better care and attention then the people.


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## ponyboy

I checked out their web site. First they say you should ride without a bit, but then they add "Hackamore and bosal bridles are used to control the horse by pain, and should not be purchased." And they advocate using a rope halter as a bridle which everyone knows can dig into a horse's nose.


Good intentions maybe, but misguided.


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## ridergirl23

ponyboy said:


> I checked out their web site. First they say you should ride without a bit, but then they add "Hackamore and bosal bridles are used to control the horse by pain, and should not be purchased." And they advocate using a rope halter as a bridle which everyone knows can dig into a horse's nose.
> 
> 
> Good intentions maybe, but misguided.


good intentions is right, BUT THEY WILL NEVER GET EQUISTRAINS THAT ARE PASSIONITE ABOUT RIDING TO CHANGE TO BRIDLESS RIGHT AFTER THEY INSULT US.

and they really need to think of that before they go off blaming and shunning people


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## Rissa

I didn't read any comments.


But I will say, this seems to be an advertisement for a training method. Of course they will find the worst of the worst to get their point across. That's the purpose of propaganda.

Although that last photo, of the spurs covered in hair and blood and the blood all over the horses side in strips made me sick.


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## PaintsPwn

SHARK is no better than PETA or any other radical organization.

The way NH has become such a money pit, there are more 'natural' trainers popping up than can be counted and they rely on these schemes to trick newbies into their wallet.


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## eaferg

> Although I agree the video puts a bad light on several things, I must say I resent having the "barefoot and bridle-less clubs" being called stupid.
> Please don't bunch an entire group of people because of the way they keep and or train their horses and call them stupid.


This is so true. I could copy these replies and post it on a barefoot/brideless club that is less radical than this video and their response?: ONE person does something bad and we ALL get blamed.


I'm on the fence with SHARK. Yes, they do bring light to rodeo abuse in the rodeo world, but I would like to say not all rodeos are bad. In fact, their videos almost remind me of the one I posted. Just becuase a few rodeos have abuse, doesn't mean we should shut them all down. I firmly believe there is only one solution to all the madness: EDUCATION. There are a few cases, however, where there is a twisted individual that the law should definitely intervene with.

PETA, SHARK, and other organizations are all started with a noble cause, which I can fully respect. BUT sometimes views and beliefs are made so extreme that it is impossible to trust what you see. I say don't make any assumptions! Research the topic fully yourself before you let ANY opinion shape what you believe.


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## Vidaloco

So a horse getting a leg broken in a rodeo isn't abuse? I'm sorry I used Shark as an example I didn't know they were extremists. I just wonder what some people consider abuse. Enlighten me please
Is the training of a horse concentrating on communication and understanding not better than the old cowboy way of "breaking" a horse? I see nothing wrong with the natural horsemanship way of training. Its up to the individual to decide whats a gimmick and whats not. Its their money after all. Maybe those old timers just wish they had come up with the idea so some of that newbie money had come their way.


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## Vidaloco

I'm sorry to double post but I'm starting to feel bad about this and I hate feeling bad. 
Please everyone forgive me for any foulness that has come through my keyboard today. I shall go back to standing by my Etiquette Pledge


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## dressagexlee

Vidaloco said:


> *So a horse getting a leg broken in a rodeo isn't abuse?* I'm sorry I used Shark as an example I didn't know they were extremists. I just wonder what some people consider abuse. Enlighten me please.


...Perhaps you didn't read her post? She said that not all rodeos are bad. And they aren't. Take the Calgary Stampede, for example. I've been in the back stalls and watched the warm-up rings, and the council does a very good job of keeping abuse out of this event every year. The animals are always well fed, well trained, and they seem very happy.


On a side note, I don't like Shark or PETA at all, personally.


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## SmoothTrails

Well, my step-father uses the old cowboy way...it does base on communitcation, but it is done more quickly so there is more fight before the horse realizes "O I'm not the boss!" After that they relax and you don't fight. I will also agree with one other post that talked about most rodeos are not like that. Shark catches accidents, and I have seen some where they flat out lied to try to make things look worse. My step-father trains barrel horses and trail horses. They are all started with ground work as a yearling for a little while, put back out to pasture, brought back in as a 2 year old and rode. Some buck adn some don't they all gget it out of their systems rather quickly. Riosdad can give some true examples of the so-called "old way" or "cowboy way" which is still used widely today and is the basis for much of NH.


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## farmpony84

I didn't read all of the pages of responses to this thread.

Every sport has a "dark side". Every sport has people that take training methods to the extreme, they call it competitiveness, we call it cheating, abusiveness, stupidity....

We know what the reality is.


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## BoarderCowgirl12

Gidji said:


> Don't get me started on this video.
> Some of those horses were on loose reins in a snaffle.
> The rest were being held in proper head carriage and were either chewing on the bit, or yawning.
> Very few were cruel.


I agree.
Bits, Spurs, Tight reins, Crops/Whips, and kicking ARE NOT abusive...though they can be if not used PROPERLY.:evil:


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## BoarderCowgirl12

Vidaloco said:


> YouTube - SHARKonlineorg's Channel
> Want to see real abuse?


I hate to 'cuss' but that video ****ED me off to an unbelievable MEASURE!!!!!!:evil:
WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY DO THAT.....OHMAGOD THAT MAKES ME SOOOOOOOOOO MAD!!!!!!!!!!
i wouldnt recomend anyong watching that video


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## Sunny06

Good grief. It looks like they just went and found all the pictures of horses with their mouths open and call it "abuse".

A bit? ABUSE? Oh, so cranking a martingale on my horse's nose insted and braking his breathing pipes is BETTER? Hmmm... (not saying martingales are this way, but if they were to be used too tight or something they could easily hurt a horse)


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## eaferg

Vidaloco:
I apologize myself, not for what I stated but because I didn't watch the video first. I hated it. I dont think that the broken leg(s) were abuse, but rather accident. Are horses falling and breaking limbs in races abuse? No, I don't believe so.The real abuse occured when the horse was dragged out of the arena on two, TWO!! Broken limbs and not being properly cared for. Perhaps the sport in which this horse participated in was abusive, perhaps it was only this particular rodeo where it became abusive.

The thing I hate about SHARK and PETA is that they only show the videos that turn out badly and make us all assume that's what the whole sport is like. And as others said, there are two sides to everything. Personally, I try to investigate EVERY side before I jump to conclusions.


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## mom2pride

I'm actually rather offended; not because of the general idea of bitless riding, but because of the accusation that ALL training\riding aids are cruel and unusual punishment...well, if that's how those people really feel, then we shouldn't ride horses AT ALL!!!! Sheesh...


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## GoldRush

OK...I'm going to say this, and probably get chastised by the moderator, so I will try and keep the PC if possible.
I lived in Salinas, CA for a while...home of a big rodeo. There were always protesters (mainly PETA) going on about abuse. Rodeo IS rough, but these animals are the cowboys tools to get the job done, and from what I saw, they were kept in top notch facilities, fed and watered very well, groomed and loved, which makes sense. If you are going to do roping or any of the activities in a rodeo, you are a team with your horse. He's your buddy, your team mate, your protector, your ally. WSatching these horse and rider teams work (I personally love the cutting shows) is amazing. The calves and cows were also well treated, and a vet was there to treat any injuries. If an animal was injured, even slightly, it was removed from activity.
Now comes the un-PC part. Please be forewarned!
There were also Mexican rodeos. This is generally where abuse comes in. As a culture, Mexicans tend to treat their animals with indifference, using sharp spurs, harsh bits, whips, etc. I have seen many horses abused severely, some to death. It isn't just rodeo that acts this way. Dogs are also abused severely, again some to death. A friend's sister had a husband who got so drunk on Cinco de Mayo, that he took her mare (pregnant at the time and ready to foal) out for a ride on the highway at night. She was hit by a car, and had to be put down. The foal didn't survive. He got a night in jail, and the wife bailed him out! (Personally, I would have left him to rot there!) He showed no remorse about what he had done, and couldn't understand why people were so upset.
So, a lot of what is shown in the SHARK video (what little of it I could stomach) is from these Mexican rodeos. Some of the first video (the bloody spurs, etc) were also from these rodeos. 
I do apologize if I have upset anyone, or sound racist or bigoted. I am not. Just telling what I have seen and experienced. I am not painting an entire culture with the same brush, just a small part of it.


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## CuriousFT

GoldRush: I completely agree with you. People must get tired of me talking about Denny, but it was the Mexicans that abused him so heavily. He is an incredible horse now, but when we first got him he was very scared and very angry. He has a hole in his side from where a bull got him, a horribly done brand, and white spots from a poor fitting saddle. He is also terrified of fly spray, cannot be surrounded by too many people, and USED to be afraid of trailers (probably because everywhere he went was worse than the previous place). Alright I'm done with my rant, just wanted to say that you are not being bigoted, it is what it is.


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## GoldRush

I hate the humungeous brands thay put on their horses! Awful, and painful... 
They do love their spurs, too...no 'cruelty-free' spurs for them!
OK, one teeny rant here...My hubby and I go to Madera every two weeks to switch dogs with his ex...it's a loooong story, but suffice to say we have shared custody of three bichons! Anyway, there is a large hispanic population there (and a kick *** feed store!!!!) who keep horses (chickens, goats, bulls, etc...) Driving down the main highway, we go past ranches where several horses are kept on small lots...up to ten an acre. The worst part is this: There is NO shade for the horses (or any of the other animals) on any of these ranches! No trees, no shade stands, no nothing. The area gets baking hot in the summer, well over 100 degrees several days in a row last summer, and these poor creatures have zero shelter. One particular favorite is a TB ranch, tree lined driveway, but the itsy little corral areas the horses are kept in are tree-less! That is cruelty out in the open, IMO, and no one does anything about it! GGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR....OK, I'm done.


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## jimmy

whats the problem


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## kevinshorses

jimmy said:


> whats the problem


 
bleeding hearts


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## MacabreMikolaj

I understand what some of you are saying, but I find it highly unfair to blame a culture like Mexico. You have to remember that until only recently, we treated animals the EXACT SAME. Heck, a lot of people still do! We just evolved as a culture that took a hard look at animal abuse and decided we didn't like it. For a culture like Mexico, that's just simply never changed. They don't have the rules we do, and they've never grown up with an idea that treating an animal any way you want is unacceptable. I suppose it may seem obvious to some of us, but to a LOT of cultures, animals were only put on this earth to serve us as we see fit. We may not agree with it, but I don't think it's fair to oust them as the source of the problem. 

I mean, really, if PETA didn't have Mexico to filter out brutal videos from, how on earth would they EVER convince the world that it's the USA abusing animals in this fashion? :roll:

Anyway, I personally think it's 10x worse when you have someone in the USA/Canada type area blatantly abusing animals in a vicious manner when they are completely aware of the animal abuse laws and just don't care. And it's sad how often it occurs. There are plenty of cultures left that give no second thought to inflicting pain on animals, so I don't think it's fair to focus on just one.


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## AlmagroN

MacabreMikolaj said:


> You have to remember that until only recently, we treated animals the EXACT SAME. Heck, a lot of people still do! We just evolved as a culture that took a hard look at animal abuse and decided we didn't like it. For a culture like Mexico, that's just simply never changed. They don't have the rules we do, and they've never grown up with an idea that treating an animal any way you want is unacceptable.


if you remember a while ago there was a video posted where someone got onto a horse (obviously an unbroke one) and it began rearing and such. the video looked like it took place in the middle east due to the scenery and the type of dress they had. a lot of people were "outraged" and said it was abuse. and it was a case of a different culture and the way they do things. many of them dont have "trainers" and "programs" like we do over here for breaking and training horses, its simply the way they do it and have done it since... well probably, since their culture began. 

as for the video, i dont know much about riding and riding bits and such, but it really didnt do much for me as far as seeing it as abuse. it was a "roll my eyes its another scare tactic" kind of a thing, to get people to support a certain group. which is sad... but it happens. ive dealt with a lot of that though with racing, they see an accident and immediately we are abusing them because that accident happened. but accidents happen anywhere any time...


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## GoldRush

"... find it highly unfair to blame a culture like Mexico..."

I DID warn you that some people may not like what I said. I was using that particular culture as an example. I don't know what other cultures do, but have personally seen this culture in action, and can attest to the treatment that is given to animals by them. Again, I am not judging the entire culture, just the choice few.

 "...it's 10x worse when you have someone in the USA/Canada type area blatantly abusing animals in a vicious manner when they are completely aware of the animal abuse laws and just don't care..."

My point exactly! These are people who live in the U.S., moved here from Mexico, and blatently ignore our laws, because they don't suit their needs or desires!


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## MacabreMikolaj

GoldRush, I wasn't insuled or offended by your post and I understand were you're coming from. I just think it's wrong to blame a culture for their treatment of animals because it differs from ours.

And I'm sorry but you COMPLETELY took my last sentence there out of context. I am not referring to immigrants in the US abusing animals. I am referring to people who WERE born and raised knowing that animal abuse is wrong and do it anyway. That's the only reason I think it's wrong to blame a culture like Mexico for it's treatment - literally the ONLY reason we don't do the same is because it's illegal. The only reason our rodeos aren't so bad is because people have learned to be afraid of the legal consequences. You think we don't have JUST as many people here who still believe animals should be treated like trash? The only reason it seems worse in Mexico is because we actually prosecute them here!

I can guarantee there are just as many people in Mexico who were born with a moral compass and prefer to treat animals with compassion. They just haven't come far enough to do something about it, and most are raised in situations where nothing is wrong with it and they're made to feel stupid for thinking so. We have just as much animal abuse over here, we just think we have the right to feel "proud and civilized" because a few cases result in people charged.

They abuse animals out of ignorance. We abuse them for money and fame.


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## GoldRush

I agree, Macabre...And it saddens me that all cultures are just as guilty.


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## MacabreMikolaj

It makes me disgusted being human sometimes. We like to believe we're moving forward, and yet all we've really done is made laws. Which I suppose is a good step, but how do you resolve the inner problem of so many humans being born with a need for cruelty? It makes you wonder where it surfaced from - why so many of us have this desire to inflict terrible pain. We've recognized abuse of any living creature as being wrong, and yet we don't seem to have made a dent in the people capable of such viciousness. They just go to jail now instead of being applauded!

I think that's why I try not to criticize other cultures - I totally get where you're coming from, and I agree for the most part. It's just hard when literally the only difference is we just get punished for our horrible crimes - and yet we still commit them! (Haha, obviously not WE, but you know what I mean).

Does anybody know if any studies have been done to try and identify the alarming human desire to delibrately torture? I know predators don't often kill their prey quickly, but that stems from a desire to eat and an ignorance of inflicting pain. What reason is there for so many humans finding satisfaction in the process of abuse and torture?


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## GoldRush

It seems to be about being the stronger, 'smarter' species, I think...All we have that most animals don't is opposable thumbs! LOL It certainly isn't brains!


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## Ne0n Zero

...I laughed, sorry.

Not at the horses because clearly yes some of them were uncomfortable. But rather because although I'm all for bitless and barefoot, and I do that with my horse, the whole BITLESS & BAREFOOT IS THE ONLY WAY is almost worse than PETA. 

I wish people weren't so ignorant.


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## veganchick

many of the riders are really choked up on the horses mouth, and that is not ok.... But most people who ride with bits reall care about their horses, and are not going to ruin their horses mouths or doing anything close to cruel..... 
But just because a natural rider made this vid, don't discriminate against all, because man are not at all like that.... Its the same concept of people discriminating against all vegans because stupid sites like PETA make vegans look well... like stupid peta people....


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds

sooo since this is a 'bitless and barefoot club' are shoes horse abuse, too?? And just cause a horse has it's mouth open, doesn't mean its in pain. DUMB.


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## ridergirl23

veganchick said:


> many of the riders are really choked up on the horses mouth, and that is not ok.... But most people who ride with bits reall care about their horses, and are not going to ruin their horses mouths or doing anything close to cruel.....
> But just because a natural rider made this vid, don't discriminate against all, because man are not at all like that.... Its the same concept of people discriminating against all vegans because stupid sites like PETA make vegans look well... like stupid peta people....


i ride bridless and stuff, but when somebody attacks the sport that is my whole life, i am going to get defensive, and i will probablydislike that whole group of people. They can have there own opinion, and i dont care if they hate it, but riding is having a tough time WITHOUT them doing stupid stuff like this that none-riders will see and start hating riding too. I dont dislike them all, only the one (or more) that made that da** video.

im sorry, this is probably is astupid question but, what is vegan? haha im so clueless :lol:


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## gypsygirl

vegans dont eat meat or animal products, such as milk & eggs. my sister is a vegan & she wont even eat honey


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## Vidaloco

Ne0n Zero said:


> ...I laughed, sorry.
> 
> Not at the horses because clearly yes some of them were uncomfortable. But rather because although I'm all for bitless and barefoot, and I do that with my horse, the whole BITLESS & BAREFOOT IS THE ONLY WAY is almost worse than PETA.
> 
> *I wish people weren't so ignorant*.


I think its more arrogance than ignorance. Some people think their way is the only way and we, as ignorant sheep, should follow them.


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## ridergirl23

gypsygirl said:


> vegans dont eat meat or animal products, such as milk & eggs. my sister is a vegan & she wont even eat honey


thanks!


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## farmpony84

ridergirl23 said:


> im sorry, this is probably is astupid question but, what is vegan? haha im so clueless :lol:


When I was in high school I had a friend that was Vegan... (This is no joke). The whole time we were in high school I thought it meant she was into witch craft!  It wasn't until years later that I realized it meant she was a vegetarian.


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## gypsygirl

farmpony84 said:


> When I was in high school I had a friend that was Vegan... (This is no joke). The whole time we were in high school I thought it meant she was into witch craft!  It wasn't until years later that I realized it meant she was a vegetarian.


haha what !?!!!!!

[vegans are different from vegetarians btw]


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## ridergirl23

farmpony84 said:


> When I was in high school I had a friend that was Vegan... (This is no joke). The whole time we were in high school I thought it meant she was into witch craft!  It wasn't until years later that I realized it meant she was a vegetarian.


ahahaahahahaha that just made my day! 
that is somethign i would definitly think! 
haha


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## farmpony84

gypsygirl said:


> haha what !?!!!!!
> 
> [vegans are different from vegetarians btw]


 
yes but this friend was a vegetarian, she ate eggs and drank milk, she would also eat fish. Just not other meats.


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## kevinshorses

farmpony84 said:


> yes but this friend was a vegetarian, she ate eggs and drank milk, she would also eat fish. Just not other meats.


 
This summer I'm planning on planting a garden. Where would I get *fish and egg seeds?*


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## farmpony84

kevinshorses said:


> This summer I'm planning on planting a garden. Where would I get *fish and egg seeds?*


One of those organic stores? Fish seeds come from oil right? *)


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## Vidaloco

Egg seeds can only be found by those who know which came first the chicken or the egg


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## equiniphile

MacabreMikolaj said:


> The only reason it seems worse in Mexico is *because we actually prosecute them here!*
> [/.




Do we really? It sucks, but people get away with this crap all the time. A lady in my area starved 40 horses, 35 of which died of starvation and lack of care before AC stepped in, and what sentence did she get? A week in jail, I kid you not. It's insane. Some people do get prosecuted fairly (or almost fairy) for what they've done, but the vast majority do not


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## XxHunterJumperxX

Uhh. I hate to be against anyone.... But I am all for this video.

1:17, I see that EVERY time I see cross country. Its unnecessary!

I really don't want to fight you guys, but I like this video.

Spurs- to sharpen your aids... your horse may not even be lazy, you just gave him nothing to look forward to, so you stuck sharp metal sticks into his side. When people in the hall go slow, I ask them to go faster, not begin stabbing them in the sides with metal poles.

Martingales- I have seen several injuries. Running martingales... Not bad reall, I use those on head throwers. Standing martingales? I have seen a horse spook, try to lift his head to look at it, then step into a new page of panic from hacing his head strapped to his chest, rearing up, and putting his rider in the hospital.

Just becuase they are in a snaffle makes it no less worse. All of these shots were terrible. Just knowing, that you can do EVERYTHING the same... Bareback and in a halter.

Why were whips created? To be an extension of your arm. Not something to smack your horse with when he misbehaves. Asking for something, like a spanish walk, then you can poke him, but not beat him, or acually whip him.

"They were just caught with their mouths open" - Why would they need their mouths to be open? Ease the pain?
"they were just yawning"- there is a big difference between yawning and this.
As chewing on the bit is different too.

Loose reins? What time? I wanna see these pics.

Most of the dressage was in TWO bits?!?! I don't even use ONE! I have no clue how you could use two, and what the purpose is. Stuff all this metal in my horses mouth, then strap it shut so he can't fight the pain?

I am sorry, please don't quote me and tell me how wrong I am, you can't change my mind, but merely get me more and more agitated, heating up this topic.


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## dressagexlee

Somebody's very malinformed.


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## XxHunterJumperxX

Oh yeah, and dressagexlee... I know I am informed on what I am talking about...

(I don't think you were talking to me though)

I was a regular competing three day eventer, for about 6 years.


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## roro

All I can say is: 
Fail.


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## ridergirl23

XxHunterJumperxX said:


> Oh yeah, and dressagexlee... I know I am informed on what I am talking about...
> 
> (I don't think you were talking to me though)
> 
> I was a regular competing three day eventer, for about 6 years.


You dont know what the double bridle in dressage is. unless you know A LOT about it, DO NOT dis it or say how bad it is. 
yes, you are VERY uninformed, and i can tell that just by reading your first post. spurs arent bad, the people that abuse with them are. martingales arent bad. double bridles? i can tell you what those are for.

you can have your opinion, but please dont attack people who ride with bits and spurs and whips. like the title says: one person does somethign bad, and we all get blamed.


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## kevinshorses

XxHunterJumperxX said:


> I am sorry, please don't quote me and tell me how wrong I am, you can't change my mind, but merely get me more and more agitated, heating up this topic.


The saddest thing in the world is a young person that insists in wallowing in ignorance. Please educate yourself.


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## dressagexlee

xXHJXx, I _was _talking to you.

*ahem*
Spurs are a refinement of the aids. They are not implements of torture or cruelty. They are designed for the purpose of making aids _clearer_ to a horse, to avoid confusion for the horse.
I would personally not use a martingale right now, because I believe in softness and feel to "get a horse's head down" (though, this should be the last thing you think about). Perhaps if I came across "the horse" that the "gets it" with a martingale, I would. But I don't know much about them as is. I have seen them cause bad accidents, though.
Not every horse is able to be ridden bitless. Bits were created, again, to get aids across more clearly. Bitless bridles can be harsh too, and some horses hate the feeling of face pressure by itself. I knew a horse that would rear up when ridden in a Nurture bitless bridle, but loved her french-link snaffle. And my friend's aunt owned a horse that misunderstood his full cheek snaffle, but they switched him to a pelham and he suddenly "got" what they were asking for. 
Dressage whips are used for backing up ones leg aid. They are supposed to be used as a light reminder that says, "Hey, my leg says go." It's a lot less "cruel" than, say, kicking the horse harder. I've never been taught _proper use_ of short crops for riding, so I cannot elaborate.
Allow me to quote this from a previous topic:


dressagexlee said:


> Double bridles are used optionally at Third and Fourth Level, and are a requirement for the levels above.
> The purpose of them is to give the rider lighter, refined aids when they use their hands, and it gives more control over the placing of the horse's head (this does not mean holding his head in place!).
> A rider who is using a double bridle should have an independent seat, leg, and hand. They should know how give and take at the right time (_feel_), and have very, very soft and elastic hands.
> Overuse of the curb causes the horse to draw back his tongue (sometimes getting it stuck in between the two bits), and this is why some riders, especially the rollkur users, will put crank or other "trapping" nosebands on their bridles. It appalls me to no end to see the highest level riders pulling and yanking their horses around in the warm-up to pull them into hyperflexion. They end up, really, drowning the horse in pain and confusion.
> That being said, their are many riders who do use the double bridle correctly. In the hands of a soft and empathetic rider, it's a great bridle.


Contact on a horse's mouth is not going to hurt them. Again, getting aids across more clearly is the point of this.
Sometimes, when we enter the show-ring (which is seen by public eye and papparazzi), we forget our refined selves. Sometimes we have to sacrifice what is termed "correct" riding to deal with an issue a hand. Even the highest level riders make mistakes, misjudgements, and just forget things that they wouldn't normally. Sometimes horses do silly things that surprize us, and we may not know how to react. Horses even get nervous at shows, and they may channel it by, say, rolling their tongue around on the bit or grinding their teeth. Sure, some of the pictures in the video appear as terrible riding and misuse of the equipment, but we don't know the story behind them. We are still human, and they are still horses. 

Harsh and cruel is in the hands of the rider. You can use anything you want as long as you are educated on how your piece of equipment works and you are aware of what it is doing to your horse. You should only use this piece of equipment if you are capable of using it.
As riders we must strive at our best to create happy horses, but this comes in different ways. Knowledge is power, my friend. The more you learn, the more you can utilize. You never stop learning. If you say to yourself, "I've learned everything I can." or if you shut something out without completely without knowing about it, then you are only burning yourself.


And and saying you've had six years of riding cross country will not get you props here. I've been riding for five, and I'd only count one of them as_ good riding_.


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## lacyloo

hehe someone pass the popcorn


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## farmpony84

I was watching youtube the other day, it was Dolly Parton singing a song actually, She was in the middle of the lyric and I paused it. In that instant I caught her with her mouth open but at an odd angle, her left side was a little lower then her right and her eyes were halted in the middle of a blink. She was also just about to lift her arms out on each side as singers do. The way the video clip paused, she looked outright drunk. High on drugs, just a mess when in reality, she was merely in the middle of a singing a song on the stage of the grand old opry.

What I'm trying to say is, with the right camera, you can get off a whole of shots in just an instant. Within that instant, you can get whatever expression you are looking for.

It's not always correct to judge people from a photograph. 

_PS - Remember the conscientious ettiquette policy_


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## QHDragon

Like any "abuse" video they are going to only show you the bad, not the vast majority of horse owners or riders over tack and over bit their horses. I see nothing wrong with giving my horse an extra kick when he is disobeying, or carrying a whip when I ride. Nor do I see anything wrong with riding in a bit. 

With any group I feel like they are taking the "how dare they?!" reaction of viewers when they show them only the bad pictures and running with it.


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## speedy da fish

Fancy said:


> Most of those pictures were just horses caught with their mouths open...


^yes i agree with that!

many of the pictures showed the horses in an outline and that is sposed to be cruel!


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## princess warrior

Abuse happens everywhere everyday. Right now somewhere an animal is starving, hurting, scared, being beaten or killed, whatever, and I cant stand it. Iam tired of seeing it happen,and as animal lovers we all should be doing more to stop it. I am talking about myself too. I cant sleep at night anymore knowing what people are doing to animals- all of them , have you read about the Moon bears in China? I hug my dogs & cats & horses a little tighter every day. I also have to learn more about Peta & Shark to be able to comment on them, It was gut wrenching watching the Rodeo video, the way the horse was treated with 2 broken legs was appalling, Iwas shocked no-one did anything about it. Its gonna be a long night.....


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## kevinshorses

princess warrior said:


> Abuse happens everywhere everyday. Right now somewhere an animal is starving, hurting, scared, being beaten or killed, whatever, and I cant stand it. Iam tired of seeing it happen,and as animal lovers we all should be doing more to stop it. I am talking about myself too. I cant sleep at night anymore knowing what people are doing to animals- all of them , have you read about the Moon bears in China? I hug my dogs & cats & horses a little tighter every day. I also have to learn more about Peta & Shark to be able to comment on them, It was gut wrenching watching the Rodeo video, the way the horse was treated with 2 broken legs was appalling, Iwas shocked no-one did anything about it. Its gonna be a long night.....


What about the things that are happening to people? Humans are starving, hurting, scared, being beaten or killed all over the world. I'm going to spend my time working on fixing that before I worry about a dressage horse with it's mouth open.


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## princess warrior

That is what my husband says too.


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## princess warrior

What are you going to do Kevin?.


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## lacyloo

*BTW...*

*Peta is against ALL animal ownership so you can kiss your horses, dogs and cats goodbye. *


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## dressagexlee

lacyloo said:


> *BTW...*
> 
> *Peta is against ALL animal ownership so you can kiss your horses, dogs and cats goodbye. *


Exactly.
If they could stop predators from hunting things, they would.
Extreme, assuming, arrogant, ignorant, and if one thing is wrong, _everything_ to do with it is wrong. _That _is why I hate PETA and Shark.

That's not to say they haven't done _some_ good things. But I will never follow them for some of the things they do.


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## lacyloo

It amazes me how some people can look at an animal as an "equal".
Ill considered them equal when they start speaking English and walking upright.


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## roro

lacyloo said:


> It amazes me how some people can look at an animal as an "equal".
> Ill considered them equal when they start speaking English and walking upright.


Does that mean someone from France who slumps his shoulders is not equal?


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## Vidaloco

^^ :lol: I say when they can pay for their own upkeep :lol: and clean up after themselves


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## kevinshorses

roro said:


> Does that mean someone from France who slumps his shoulders is not equal?


Of course they aren't their French!!!


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## kevinshorses

princess warrior said:


> What are you going to do Kevin?.


I donate 10% of my salary to charity and spend at least 2 hours a week volunteering.


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## Walkamile

kevinshorses said:


> Of course they aren't their French!!!


Easy cowboy, them's fightin words! (just kidding, but I am of French descent)

Just finished reading this entire thread. Wow!

Standing by my first impression after watching the video. Heck of a way to get horse people to buy their product. Even _if _I wanted it, I would not give em a dime. Very poor way to rally the troops so to speak.


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## kevinshorses

Walkamile said:


> Easy cowboy, them's fightin words! (just kidding, but I am of French descent)


If you're willing to fight are you sure you're French?

I have nothing against the French. After all the Germans seemed to quite like them!


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## dreamrideredc

This video really bothers me. Yes, there are people who ride like that, but bits, spurs, etc. are NOT abusive unless used wrong. If all of these things are abusive, why would they have created them in the first place? Not that I'm saying the natural way of training horses without these tools is bad, heck, I think it's great! But the tools mentioned in this video as "abusive" are in no way harmful if used properly...ugh, this video really ticks me off, saying I abuse my horse for riding with a bit! :-x


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## Walkamile

kevinshorses said:


> If you're willing to fight are you sure you're French?
> 
> I have nothing against the French. After all the Germans seemed to quite like them!


LOL! Than I must be French, I married a German!


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## princess warrior

That is great Kevin, it is good to see that someone who is passionate about something is doing more than just talking about it. As far as the animals go though, they deserve a voice too, I cant believe how little some of you care, and you own animals.


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## Walkamile

princess warrior said:


> That is great Kevin, it is good to see that someone who is passionate about something is doing more than just talking about it. As far as the animals go though, they deserve a voice too, I cant believe how little some of you care, and you own animals.


Just because the majority hasn't shown an appreciation for an obviously specific agenda based video, does not mean we don't care.

I personally refuse to be manipulated. My horses, and the people I personally have contact with, all treat our animals with care and kindness.

The tool is not the abuser. How it is used is.


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## HorseSavvy

That's a dumb video! Stupid ignorant people....it really bothers me that people judge so quickly (Though I'm totally guilty of it). Get the full story people! I say boo to this video and people who generalize! I agree with what Gidji said! I doubt all of these were cruel.

I do like the song though


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## HorseSavvy

Walkamile said:


> Just because the majority hasn't shown an appreciation for an obviously specific agenda based video, does not mean we don't care.
> 
> I personally refuse to be manipulated. My horses, and the people I personally have contact with, all treat our animals with care and kindness.
> 
> *The tool is not the abuser. How it is used is*.


Sorry for the double post! I just wanted to say that that quote sums it all up. My whole arguement is that right there. Thanks Walkamile!


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## kevinshorses

princess warrior said:


> That is great Kevin, it is good to see that someone who is passionate about something is doing more than just talking about it. As far as the animals go though, they deserve a voice too, I cant believe how little some of you care, and you own animals.


I care about my own animals but other animals are others personal property. They can use them as they see fit as pets, companions, tools or food. I can only contol what I do and influence those that are near me. Everything else is out of my control.


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## princess warrior

Kevin, I understand and respect that. I guess Ive missed the point here. Your all upset at a video made to look like animal abuse?.


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## lacyloo

roro said:


> Does that mean someone from France who slumps his shoulders is not equal?


...lol


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## Vidaloco

I think this thread has pretty much covered all the bases. Its time to send it to the place all worn out threads go.


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