# Property Encroachment - LONG



## Joe4d

so what kinda horse does your lawyer ride ?

point being ask us about horses. Let your lawyer do legal stuff. Every area is different seems you need a lawyer to deal with this.


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## DancingArabian

Definitely something that only a lawyer who is looking at the paperwork can address. Let the lawyer do the work and try not to get directly involved in conversations with anyone about it.


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## franknbeans

I have no idea how it is in Ontario, but I will tell you that here in NY, I am dealing with a similar issue. However, I know the laws, am having a new survey done, and am taking pictures when they do it so the neighbor cannot move stuff, as he has a history (even tho it is illegal) of doing. I also know that around here, if they are allowed to use property for a period of time, they can claim a right to it. SO, I sm obnoxious about him knowing what and where I own.....for example, I own the bottom 10 ft of his driveway. So, I park there when I feel like it, and make sure he KNOWS I am parked there. I also own about 2' of his steps down to the lake, and part of what he uses for his frontage to the lake. (by law our fence has to be 2 ft off the line, which is why he has this....HATE this law) So, I regularly make him aware of what and where I own. This year he has gotten obnoxious, so at the end of the summer season, after the new survey is done we will send him a letter to 1) move his stairs off our property. and 2) move his driveway because we will start using it as a parking space next spring. I cannot deny him access, so have to give him notice and will have to call the lawyer and double check.....but I think a year is long enough for him to move his utilities and move his driveway. 

So, if I were you, I would contact a lawyer ASAP. Do not continue to let this guy use your property. ASk the lawyer about requiring it to be moved, etc. YOu may need to send it is writing, etc.....with notice.....

My neighbor is well known as the town slum lord and is older, but still has been knows to come after me on my own dock.....next time he will be in the water.....I have had it. Mine even has renters who look in my windows. Creepy. GOod luck!


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## tlkng1

First..even if it is shown the building is over the line, is it a building that can actually be moved? There is a common sense thing here. Due to an error on the part of the county my brother's neighbors house extended 8 inches over the property line. The neighbor simply bought the 8 inches (in a straight line from back to front of property) at fair market value as obviously the house couldn't be "moved" unless it was torn down and rebuilt.


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## franknbeans

Not sure how that could happen, being that there are setbacks on all builds......usually 10-15 ft. Depends on where you are, I supposed. Out in the country is one thing. Waterfront, which is where I am-there are battles over 6 inches. It also depends on the neighbor Some are totally the "take a mile" mentality, and others are gracious and genuine in their remorse. Mine is the former. If you have acres and acres, yes, one solution is to sell them the land at fair market value, with them paying the associated costs.


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## tlkng1

In my brother's case it was an addition the neighbor added on post build. The county readily admitted they goofed on their surveying when the owner applied for the building permit. The neighbor's, and my brother's, houses had been sold a couple of times post build and no one ever questioned.


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## churumbeque

They could actually take your land from you if the building has been on there for years and it was built unknowingly on your property. Its called Immanent Domain. It is an expensive process.


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## churumbeque

franknbeans said:


> I have no idea how it is in Ontario, but I will tell you that here in NY, I am dealing with a similar issue. However, I know the laws, am having a new survey done, and am taking pictures when they do it so the neighbor cannot move stuff, as he has a history (even tho it is illegal) of doing. I also know that around here, if they are allowed to use property for a period of time, they can claim a right to it. SO, I sm obnoxious about him knowing what and where I own.....for example, I own the bottom 10 ft of his driveway. So, I park there when I feel like it, and make sure he KNOWS I am parked there. I also own about 2' of his steps down to the lake, and part of what he uses for his frontage to the lake. (by law our fence has to be 2 ft off the line, which is why he has this....HATE this law) So, I regularly make him aware of what and where I own. This year he has gotten obnoxious, so at the end of the summer season, after the new survey is done we will send him a letter to 1) move his stairs off our property. and 2) move his driveway because we will start using it as a parking space next spring. I cannot deny him access, so have to give him notice and will have to call the lawyer and double check.....but I think a year is long enough for him to move his utilities and move his driveway.
> 
> So, if I were you, I would contact a lawyer ASAP. Do not continue to let this guy use your property. ASk the lawyer about requiring it to be moved, etc. YOu may need to send it is writing, etc.....with notice.....
> 
> My neighbor is well known as the town slum lord and is older, but still has been knows to come after me on my own dock.....next time he will be in the water.....I have had it. Mine even has renters who look in my windows. Creepy. GOod luck!


 Are you sure he doesn't have an easement for the driveway?


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## Palomine

Depends on your judge I would say.

Several years ago a neighbor of my best friend had gone into home, his property sat vacant, and the idiots down the hill behind the house built a house about 20 feet into the vacant house's land. Son saw what had happened, but the law said it was okay for the house to be built. Didn't make the jerk pay for it, remove it or anything. Basically got away with about 1/2 acre as they had put a fence up too.

Hope your judge and town is better than that.


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## franknbeans

churumbeque said:


> Are you sure he doesn't have an easement for the driveway?


Positive. I have gone and read through all of the papers at the county office myself. However, when I start the legal process, I will have THEM check. I have even checked all of the surveys back to the 1800's, which is when the property was divided (and looking at the lines that was done by someone on some really good drugs.... ) Nothing anywhere. We have been battling for years, as has the neighbor on the other side of him. He only has 12.4 ft of water frontage and has 13 ft (dock and boat hoist) of crap. But he puts mirrors on the fence-that makes it look bigger you now. :shock: He has a long history of ignoring the town zoning and doing whatever he wants. PIA.:wink:

Tlkg-I am finding this difficult to fathom. Any addition has to have a permit, and the county does not do the surveys. Property owner does. Also cannot believe that if there is an issue none of the title searches from several sales have had an issue with it. Having had several houses built (2 in Howard County)and having a DH who is a real estate developer in Metro DC.....sounds strange.


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## NorthernMama

Wow, thanks for all the input everyone. Except Joe4d - really... sheesh... So you have no knowledge about anything other than horses? What a narrow life you must lead. 

I will try to respond to everything posted. If I miss something, please just post again.

Yes, there is supposed to be a set back here as well. How he managed to build his garage there is beyond me. I suspect that there was some nepotism involved. No, the garage can't be moved. Yes, selling a piece of the land is probably the only option. It sucks that *I* have to sell when he is the one that screwed up on the building along with the township. Also, I can't just sell him the little bit that he needs. I already checked with zoning; I have to sell a rather large chunk with road access. I'm not impressed. He also definitely knows he is on our property. When he figured it out, I have no idea. From day one that we bought the place I questioned the lines over there and walked around over there several times, making it very obvious that I was questioning where he put his stuff. Also, even if this had come to light when we were buying, there is no way that we would have had the time and resources to deal with it at the time. 

There is, or used to be anyway, a "squatter's rights" law of some kind here. But it has been disputed many times and the time line is something like 20 or 30 years. It has been used to allow continued access through private property, but not much for buildings that I am aware of. Maybe I'll do a bit of reading for curiosity's sake.

Eminent Domain. Hmmm. Sounds familiar. I will ask/read. Regardless though the issue will be that the planning office will not allow the property line to be moved just enough to cover what he is using. Which means I suffer doubly. And he definitely knows. Did he know when the building was erected? I don't know, but again, back to the township and the building permit... someone should have been responsible for this. After all, part of the reason I was dealing with this now is because we are finally in a position to build a road access point there and wanted to make sure that I knew where the lines are before making any applications. 

I also took pictures as soon as the surveyors left. Just lucky that I was home the day they came. Within hours at least one stake was removed. I suspect that I will find that one or 3 more have been removed. Doesn't matter. There are iron bars in the bedrock now. The surveyor knew what he was dealing with and wanted to ensure the guy couldn't mess it up.

I have to wait for the survey papers to come back, then I will take them to the lawyer. He can't do anything until he has those. And it took about three months just to ensure I could use that lawyer. I started the survey process over a year ago. This is a slooooow process.

And this is only the front part of our property. If I ever have lots of money and decided I still would want to live here, I would have the entire property surveyed. It would only cost well over $10,000 to do. :shock: I'd rather put the $10K into a different property though if I did have lots of money. That's why most people don't survey properties here.


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## NorthernMama

Also, I need to remember to ask if there is any obligation to deal with encroachment as soon as someone becomes aware. Because he definitely knew for sure that there was a problem before I knew for sure. That would possibly mean that he is more so in the wrong.

Honestly, if I was a nasty person, I'd try to figure out some way to make him tear down his garage. He's not a nice person and it would be awesome to be able to stick it to him. But, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I did that. So, once again, the nice guy gets screwed. For this reason, I am not willing to sell him the land at market value. It's worth far more than that to him. He can't do diddly squat with his property the way it is now; I'm going to make sure of that.


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## NorthernMama

churumbeque said:


> They could actually take your land from you if the building has been on there for years and it was built unknowingly on your property. Its called Immanent Domain. It is an expensive process.


Just looked up Eminent Domain. It is the power of the government/state to seize land for purposes such as building highways. Not individuals. At even then, they have to pay for it. I remember now that the highway did that to my dad's property when I was a teen.


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## NorthernMama

I just looked up Squatter's Rights as well. It is only 10 years apparently. Yikes! Anyway we should be within that limit, because I initiated the process before 10 years was up. And still, the planning office restrictions should have some application. What a mess. I sure hope my lawyer is good. And I sure hope our title insurance will help us. I wonder if there is a time limit on the title insurance?

Ach. I just want the papers now to be able to hand this over to the lawyer.


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## franknbeans

I can only speak for here in my state right now since I am most familiar with the regulations here. I have gone online to my local town that has jurisdiction and printed out the zoning laws and know then well. I also go to talk to the zoning officer if I have a question so he knows all my issues. I am hoping you can do somewhat the same thing. Here you could make him tear it down. It would not be easy but lawyers Eric working with the code enforcement officer can do it. 

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.


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## NorthernMama

It's going to be a loooong time before I have any more activity on this. I figure at least 6 weeks minimum before I even get talking to the lawyer. I'll try to remember to follow up on this thread.


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## franknbeans

THese things have not gotten to this state overnight and they sure are not resolved overnight either. Ours has been going on for over 30 yrs. This guy was a PIA for my father before me.


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## NorthernMama

*update*

So we got the drawings and the neighbour definitely has buildings over the line. :-( I have sent the papers to the lawyer and we'll go from there. Next step is a meeting with the lawyer to see what he suggests.

Man, this takes forever. It's been well over a year since I initiated this and still haven't even met with the lawyer. I'm thinking this is going to take at least 3 years to get resolved.


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## Saddlebag

Put your name on the agenda each month and attend council meetings until they are sick of the sight of you. When on the agenda, council is obligated to allow you to speak.


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## 4horses

How annoying! We had a neighbor move next door who didn't speak English. He thought his property started where the fence ended, when we owned several feet of property next to the fence. He was going to put a bunch of stuff there (plants), drive way etc. He actually called the police when my dad (who is a surveyor) went out there to measure and put up tape! 

This was the same neighbor who blasted illegal fireworks over my barn every year for the 4th of July! I swear he was aiming above the barn! 

When we moved out (a year or two later), a policeman bought our house. :twisted: 

Does he have permits? If he doesn't have permits, anything he built can be torn down if it is not up to code.


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## NorthernMama

Saddlebag - this has nothing to do with municipal council at this point. All must be done through legal channels.

4horses - well, building permits are enforced now... whether they were when he built, I don't know and there was a lot of nepotism at the time in council as well. On top of all that, this is a fairly rural area and people didn't seem to have any respect/concern about property lines -- as long as you had a "rough" idea. Wow.... I doubt I could ask him to tear it down. It's been a while and a tear down would be very expensive, not to mention extremely bad karma in a small community.


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## franknbeans

Here is the problem, and of course you will have to check your jurisdiction. But, in many areas, if you let it go a number of years, they basically have rights to it. I have this issue with my neighbor when it comes to many things, but, I know I own the end of his driveway. He knows I know, he knows I park there sometimes.....I cannot "deny him access", however, I can make his miserable self MORE miserable. There is no "right of way"......but-it I ignore it, eventually, he just has rights to it. He also knows not to annoy me.....I will go to a lawyer IN A HEARTBEAT and send him a letter giving him notice to move his driveway. We have had issues since my dad owned this property, and he and I have had it out before. Anyway-it also becomes an issue when/if either property is sold......it makes yours difficult to sell, as well as his, since some of the buildings he would be selling are on YOUR property. In my case, I have made it abundantly clear to my neighbor that there is not nor will there EVER be a right of way legally. Therefore, he is basically shafted in selling. We are not in this for a popularity contest. Our real estate is probably our biggest asset. Don't let someone else mess that up. Be smart about it.

Add:some things MAY be grandfathered in....you just have to know your building and zoning code, and if in question call the town.


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## Fourteen

I've been "the nice guy" one too many times. Its not worth it in the end. Even people who you think are good neighbours will most of the time put themselves first, if it comes right down to it.

If you need the piece of land that his garage sits on, and the garage is in your way, get it torn down. He most likely knew exactly what he was doing in the first place, and was willing to take the risk in hopes no one would notice or have the guts to enforce the property line. The fact that he's threatening and interfering with a lawful survey speaks volumes.

I'm sorry, but the law is the law, and you paid for your land fair and square. Anyone who would criticize you for taking what is rightfully yours is very naiive. Besides, its easy to judge when its not YOUR land being stolen.


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## NorthernMama

franknbeans - yes, I know about the time thing. In Ontario, apparently it is 10 years. But there is some grey area there as well. I have already taken into consideration the selling of property. He would be far more screwed than I would be, so I am in somewhat of a position of power here. If we can't settle it now, then I will register the drawing as required so anyone that looks into buying his property will know that there is an encroachment. I can certainly let this fester in my craw for many years. <insert evil laugh here>

Fourteen - no, I will not make him tear it down. I need to sleep at night too. He's an a$$; I'm not. I will be reasonable, but I will get my fair buck as well.


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## Fourteen

Its not about being an ***, its about doing what you want or need to do with your property, within your rights as a landowner.

What do you foresee as a best case scenario as a resolution? Do you think he will volunteer to remove it, or stop encroaching on your land? Do you think anyone will buy your property in the future knowing there's an encroachment by an unfriendly neighbour that comes with the deal?

Stop thinking emotionally. This is a legal matter not a family squabble. You do not need to feel guilty, you are not the one breaking the law. JMO


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## NorthernMama

For him to tear down the shop, the financial costs are huge. It is, IMO, unreasonable for me to ask him to tear down a shop that is worth over $100,000 probably because it's over the line by a few feet. Of course, if he is not willing to pay me for those few feet, well then he can tear the darn thing down. I think a court would say that I should accept a reasonable payment for that section of land.

The best solution is a severance to sell him whatever portion he needs. The difficulties are what the planning committee will allow, the costs I have incurred, the costs to do the severance and determining the value of the land that I would sell. Keeping in mind that we fully expected to be able to sever another portion that had enough road allowance for a full driveway over there.

I'm not thinking emotionally. If I was, the guy would get diddly squat and I would get $$$$$ big bucks. I'm thinking reasonably.


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## franknbeans

Northern-Will the jurisdiction involved automatically allow a variance because obviously they said structure is not even close to the setbacks that most places have? I would think you also have them? Here it varies somewhat as to the zoning of the land and type of structure, but, for example, by setback is 15' each side. My house is closer than that, so I had to go to the town and file for a variance. Some things are grandfathered in. (as it turned out, mine was, since the structure we were tearing down and the new one were in the exact same place).

I would think, given the value of the building, you basically have this guy by the "short hairs" so to speak.


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## NorthernMama

FNB - not sure what you mean... I have already inquired at the planning board and they will allow me to move the property line, but they may not allow me to move it only 10 meters (or whatever it is. I forget.). I may have to sell him a larger chunk and that is something I don't want to do. However, my land $urveyor a$$sures me that he can get the planning commissioner to do whatever we decide we want to do because she is relatively new and he is $pecial. LOL.

Ya, I figure one way or another I will get something out of this. Just a question of how much, and when.


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## Walkamile

Just curious, but if tearing down is not an option (and I'm assuming it isn't because you personally don't wish to go in that direction) is moving it not on the table?

I ask because a situation here in Maine came up where the "gentleman" was told point blank he had two choices. 1 tear it down, 2 move it. He was in violation of building ordinance on water front property, but this guy by you basically built illegally on your property.


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## NorthernMama

No, moving isn't an option either. This is a fairly big shop. The sheds he can move.


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## franknbeans

Here in NY-you have to build XX feet away from your actual line. That is the setback. It assures you that noone will build closer to you than that---sort of. Unless they do not get a building permit, which is another matter. Perhaps they don;t have that in Ontario?


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## franknbeans

Could you do an Easement/Right of way or lease for XX years?


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## NorthernMama

Yes, there is supposed to be a set-back. I don't know what it is our municipality. Either the building permit he got was bogus or he didn't get one. Or possibly they thought the line was over a bit more. But that last excuse doesn't explain why his driveway is mostly on our property.

If he doesn't agree to move the lines and pay, then, yes I will do a lease agreement. I figure that will protect me when his property changes hands.


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## NorthernMama

*Update: Not Much Happening*

So it took us over a year to get the survey done and almost a year to find out that the lawyer that was supposed to represent us, won't. First the freakin' lawyer had to determine if there was possibly a conflict (small town); that took months. Then we finally met with him, gave him instruction and offered a retainer which he said wasn't necessary. Many weeks go by with nothing -- so I called. And called. And called. Phone calls were never returned. In the real estate slow season no less. Not impressed. Got our documents back and now have to find another lawyer. :twisted: So frustrating. 

We used another lawyer a while back to do a simple spousal transfer and he started to have us sign divorce papers! :shock: So, ya, that lawyer's out.

I've got a list of about 1/2 dozen lawyers now to cold call. I don't have anyone to ask for references. The only people I know to ask would refer me to the dipstick that assumed MDH and I were getting divorced. I know about the Law Society of Upper Canada, but they'll just give one name out of a hat. I can do that myself. Any tips on how to find the lawyer best suited for us?


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## Chevaux

Would it work asking the court house in your area if they have dealt with real estate/land related cases and if so what were the names of the lawyers involved in those cases? Knowing the outcome of the cases may point to a successful lawyer in these matters.


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## NorthernMama

Hmmm... I don't know, Chevaux. I never thought of that. It would be public record probably, but there would also probably be hundreds of cases to sort through. Plus, I don't know which court would be the right one as I am between two towns. I guess I should go look at that as well. Probably better to get a lawyer that is used to appearing in the applicable courthouse. 
Thanks.


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## squirrelfood

Get the lawyer that actually won most of his cases.


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## franknbeans

I don't know-perhaps you are better bringing in a relative "unknown" from a bigger town even. I think there can be an advantage to that, personally. Is there something like the "bar association" we have here that you could call for referrals?


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## NorthernMama

squirrelfood said:


> Get the lawyer that actually won most of his cases.


:lol: Yup - OK. On that!


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## NorthernMama

franknbeans said:


> I don't know-perhaps you are better bringing in a relative "unknown" from a bigger town even. I think there can be an advantage to that, personally. Is there something like the "bar association" we have here that you could call for referrals?


Even though I live in a little backwards village, the cities that I live close to (an hour) are a reasonable size and have many lawyers to choose from. I actually thought of going to another city but the next closest is 3 hours away and I wonder if it would be worth it, if he actually has to attend court. Each trip to court would probably cost $1000.

Here it is the Law Society of Upper Canada. But all they do is go through the list of lawyers they have that specialize in the particular field and have subscribed to the free 1/2 hour consultation program. Not very helpful in choosing a lawyer. Good to ensure that the lawyer is in practice and to find out whether or not (s)he has any disciplinary actions against them.


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## STT GUY

How long have you owned the property? There was a survey prior to your purchase..yes? Make a claim against your title insurance carrier and let THEM deal with it. 

Or, send him a registered letter with a copy of the survey stating you intend to begin your project and you intend to enforce your property boundaries. Make it crystal clear that any buildings/structures encroaching on your property shall be demolished after XXX date. Then its HIS problem. Force HIM to go spend money on lawyers and such. 

Or..there is always arson.


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## NorthernMama

STT, rural surveys are not the norm here at all. When we finally had it surveyed, even we only did the front line as to do the whole property would cost upwards of $20,000, maybe more. Yes, title insurance may come into play; due to some other lawyer's screw up, I may have to sue a lawyer about the title insurance. So I need a lawyer to look at even the title insurance. I'm not going to compose and send a letter myself. That's the first step for the lawyer to deal with - drafting up a letter informing the neighbour of what options we are willing to provide, one of which is he can renovate his shop to move a corner and part of the wall back about 3 feet!  

I'm very leery of this neighbour. He's a hothead, a gossip, he's stubborn, has no respect for anyone's property (not just ours) and has more money than I have. Put it all together and it's just a bad scene waiting to happen. I want it handled professionally and through a third party.


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## stevenson

That was a little rude of the OP toward Joe4D. He does have a valid point,, No one on this Forum can tell the OP about the laws in her state , county, town , city provence etc.

Maybe she needs to go back to the Seller of the property, if it was a recent purchase, and How far Over the property line is the garage ? if its just a couple inches will it be worth the fight ? Move the fence line over to the garage, sides , or front and back. Is it inches encroaching or Feet ?


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## STT GUY

NorthernMama said:


> STT, rural surveys are not the norm here at all. When we finally had it surveyed, even we only did the front line as to do the whole property would cost upwards of $20,000, maybe more. Yes, title insurance may come into play; due to some other lawyer's screw up, I may have to sue a lawyer about the title insurance. So I need a lawyer to look at even the title insurance. I'm not going to compose and send a letter myself. That's the first step for the lawyer to deal with - drafting up a letter informing the neighbour of what options we are willing to provide, one of which is he can renovate his shop to move a corner and part of the wall back about 3 feet!
> 
> I'm very leery of this neighbour. He's a hothead, a gossip, he's stubborn, has no respect for anyone's property (not just ours) and has more money than I have. Put it all together and it's just a bad scene waiting to happen. I want it handled professionally and through a third party.


 
NEVER...EVER buy a property without a survey..but I digress.

Not trying to be mean here, but in being direct it may came across that way. He's going to hate you anyway, so why not save some cash and send him a letter yourself? There is nothing unprofessional about you asking someone to remove their stuff from YOUR property. Go on-line and look for examples.

Offer him in writing a reasonable solution which seems to be for him to remove his structures from your property by XXX date. Seems to me you need to be willing to face the fact that you're going to **** this guy off and he's going to hate you no matter what it seems. It's like if you burn my house down or send someone to do it it's all the same, I'm not going to be any less ****ed because you had a professional do it versus doing it yourself. Does that make sense? I think you're fooling yourself thinking having a lawyer make initial contact is going to lessen the tension between parties. 

Face it, no matter what route you take you're going to be off this guys Christmas card list.

Good luck!


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## NorthernMama

Not buying a property without a survey is truly extremely common for rural properties here. It is extremely UNcommon to have a property surveyed. Actually a guy up the road from me did it - a smaller, more accessible property, closer to an already known line and it cost him between $10,000 and $15,000. All the locals thought he was nuts.

The neighbour already hates us. I'm not concerned about ****ing him off, but more about making the situation worse. Many of the people here already have issue with him for trespassing and other complaints. He's just that kind of guy.  Too bad, because his wife seems to be quite nice. It would have been nice to have her as a friend.


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## NorthernMama

stevenson said:


> That was a little rude of the OP toward Joe4D. He does have a valid point,, No one on this Forum can tell the OP about the laws in her state , county, town , city provence etc.


There are MANY conversations on this forum that have NOTHING to do with horses. Why Joe4D decided that this one needed that comment is beyond me. I usually respect his replies.



> Maybe she needs to go back to the Seller of the property, if it was a recent purchase, and How far Over the property line is the garage ? if its just a couple inches will it be worth the fight ? Move the fence line over to the garage, sides , or front and back. Is it inches encroaching or Feet ?


Not recent, yes, feet over, and even if recent, no way to go back to the seller. Within a year of moving here we figured there was a problem but did not have sufficient finances to investigate. Regardless of what the decision is to resolve, I still need a lawyer. 

And that is my current question: Any ideas how to find a good lawyer? At this point, it looks like I am just going to cold call those that practice in this area of law. Any pertinent questions that I could ask the lawyers before making a choice would be helpful.


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## stevenson

1) is there a record of any surveys on your property ? no matter how old ? 
2) was the survey you just had done recorded with the county ? 
3) has the neighbours land been surveyed in the past ? maybe he has one that shows different. ??
When my property was surveyed, the survey company had to find monuments , and place new monuments. Also your property description on the deed / title , section township and range. 
Is his shop in the way of your driveway ? or where you planned to do something ? 
Have you tried sending him copies of the survey proving his shop is on your land ? maybe you could trade the footage further back or something , land exchange for the footage ?


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## NorthernMama

Stevenson, I will answer your questions, but really all that stuff is moot now. The issue is finding a lawyer, not whether or how to deal with the encroachment.

1. No record of any surveys, ever. lots were deeded out by the crown in 320 acre parcels and any divisions after that were by recorded by calculated distances only. Which was how we figured out something was wrong. We measured from one survey post from another neighbour's lot and the math didn't work for what we saw on the ground.
2. Survey just done has not yet been put to the registrar's office. It doesn't have to be to be enforced, but I intend for it to be. Apparently a survey for registration has to be more detailed or backed up better and will cost another bunch of money.
3. As far as I know, the problem side of the neighbour's lot has not ever been surveyed either. No stakes or bars were found.
4. Yes, his structures/landscaping will interfere with our future plans.
5. No. As I said, I will not discuss this with the neighbour directly. Third party dealings only. And he has no land to trade. He uses every square inch of his property, and then some!


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## waresbear

This happened here quite frequently, actual houses partially built on neighbors' properties. Of course, no one would tear down a house or shell out money for easements. So many property owners swapped land, meaning the property lines were exchanged, the line was officially moved to include the dwelling and that owner gave up some of his land somewhere else to make up for it. All of this is surveyed at the cost of the owner with the encroached dwelling and registered at the land titles office.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson

Ontario laws a lot diff then here. I would ask neighbours and friends for attorney names.


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## NorthernMama

*Update: insurance is involved*

So, the title insurance company has accepted the claim. Right now, this is in their hands. My job is still to pick a lawyer. I got it narrowed down to two and just can't decide.:-| I'm going to call both of them this week and maybe pick one more out of a hat and see... My gut says that one is the better lawyer but that the other is geared more toward me getting what I want. 

This is a terrible time of year for this to start. I am going into my busy season at work and soon just trying to get grocery shopping done will be difficult to fit into my schedule!


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## stevenson

The title insurance should be able to help. If they make the neighbor tear down his buildings, or move them. I would be afraid of that person and never be comfortable about my animals being safe, since you already cannot communicate with them. 
Since there is a problem with the property, which Title ins is sposed to prevent, I would try to get my $$ back and find a new place if possible.


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## NorthernMama

Stevenson, its odd how you seem to be in such a different environment than what we have up here. This type of thing is not unheard of at all here. Typical rural living stuff, just the first time I have had to deal with it.

I would not be afraid of the person. He's a hot head, but he's not stupid nor mean or cruel. Not the type of personality that I can deal with. Some people can though.

I'm not moving. Wow. That's extreme. This isn't moving just me from an apartment, it would be a major move - family, animals, equipment, business, employment. I dunno, maybe other people can just pickup and move over a neighbourhood dispute, but I certainly can't. FYI, I had an issue with another neighbour years ago and even though I don't talk to them, there hasn't been a problem since the police informed them of the law. BTW, in case you think I'm the problem neighbour, both of those households don't associate with anyone else on this road. Everyone else, even though not necessarily friends, can meet and greet or at least help each other out in times of need.

If I was seriously afraid of a neighbour, I still wouldn't move. I'd be sure that we are protected along with property and animals and get the law involved. I dunno how bad it would have to be to make me move, but this is nowhere near that. That wasn't even on my radar.

Interesting how different people think in situations.


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## NorthernMama

Oh, and title insurance will not "give me $ back." They will cover the costs to resolve the claim, but not the value of my entire property.


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## whisperbaby22

I feel for you. I too have a horrible neighbor. But I'm not going to let them run me off my property. Let us know how you are doing from time to time. When you have time.


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## Saddlebag

A friend in MB bo't a lot with a shared driveway. The survey line ran right up the middle except the neighbor had built his garage accordingly which put it two feet onto the friend's property. Neighbor started getting stupid and tried claiming the driveway as his. Had he not done that friend didn't have an issue with the garage. The final outcome was that the garage had to be removed and placed not on the property line but inside the property line by several feet. Easements have to be listed on the title so if there was none, then the buildings have to go.


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## STT GUY

We had a "busy body" in our area who was ****ed about one of my out buildings. She stopped by to ***** at me about something and I told her I had to go ASAP for an appointment but I'd be home at 4pm could she com then. Yep she said.

At 4pm when she came by I was cleaning several guns...AK-47, .308 sniper rifle with a very expensive scope, combat shotgun, couple of 45 cal handguns...I asked her to have a seat and tell me what was the big deal. Funny how she wasn't so bitchy and aggressive.


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## Saddlebag

A very minor property issue. Two young gals were riding their horses in the ditch. Highway property is usually 33' from the center line plus whatever hydro pole allowance of another few feet. Anyway, the gals were on public land and not on the neighbor's. I was stopped at the highway's edge waiting to pull out when the neighbor came out running across the yard screaming at the girls as loud as she could about being on her property. I couldn't believe it. These teens were not trouble makers. They rode up to my truck and we chatted while the neighbor shrieked profanities at them/us. I assured them they were definitely on highway allowance.


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## stevenson

I have had real crappy neighbors. Horses and dogs shot with bb guns , almost daily when i was at work. Frozen roast tossed over the fence to see my dogs fight over it. Animal control called monthly on me. Fences cut. Talk to the neighbors oh no, no one did anything, no one saw anything. blah blah blah. Crazy drunks and drug addicts. 
I moved. After i moved, I saw a couple of them at the store, geez , they were sorry for the AC calls, sorry the kids were such brats , they sure did not like the people whom bought my house. But It worked out for me, because I sold for a ton more money than what I paid, and got 10 acres and built a brand new house.


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