# What does 'moving the hip over' mean?



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Connecting the rein to the shoulder isn't literal. It's meaning picking up your hand, picking up the shoulders, giving direction on which lead to pick up(inside shoulder). I don't literally steer a horse into the lead I want because I don't want them diving and usually they will drop the shoulders rather than keep them picked up.

Moving the hip over to the inside(left lead, move the hip to the left) helps the horse, clear rib out of the way and step into the correct lead. It's the set up for a correct lead departure.


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## Dutch_Juniper (May 21, 2020)

Thank you Cowchick77 for your great explanation and video. As I understand it, the description from H&R just referred to the lope departure, right? 

For a transition into the lope, my instructor told me to put my weight on my outside seat bone, pick up my inside hand a bit, and push slightly with my outside leg. I will add moving the hip to this 'routine' to help the horse understand what I want. If I understand correctly, you move your outside leg backwards a bit to move the hip, and then put it back in the default position for the lope aid, right? And unlike in English, she inside leg doesn't really play a role?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

You bet!
Yes, the paragraph you quoted from the article is talking about the lope departure only. You wouldn't do the same for a walk to trot transition.

You and your instructor will know how your horse is trained and how to cue him.
As a horse becomes more trained and cues refined the moving of the hip becomes more subtle, like you just moving your outside back leg to cue for the lope departure. If he's doing it correctly and staying soft then I wouldn't purposely move the hip over. I'd use moving the hip exaggerated to correct an issue like him picking up the wrong lead, rushing or hopping into the lope.


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## Dutch_Juniper (May 21, 2020)

He does rush! And often he trots a few fast strides before he makes the transition. This is due to my inexperience, I know he can do transitions without trotting first but his actions reflect my own learning process. I'm going to try and move the hip tonight to see if that will help me!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

When my horses rush it's usually my bad habit of throwing the reins back to them causing them to fall flat, getting strung out before they can step up under themselves into the lope. 
If they get strung out they just tend to trot faster to get to the lope.
Move his hip over, keep him picked up with your hand without binding him up until he is in the lope.
Good luck!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I didn't care for how that fellow was cranking on her face.
I've seen folks who do this to an extreme, where they have the horse really canted to the inside, and it ends up 'loping' at an angle, sort of crabbing its way along, being held in the face with its head cranked down. It's usually in Western Pleasure, where the horse is forced to canter so slow, without any lift in front, that the only way it can avoid stepping on itself is to lope crooked. I'm sure you won't go that far, tho.


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## Dutch_Juniper (May 21, 2020)

COWCHICK77 said:


> When my horses rush it's usually my bad habit of throwing the reins back to them causing them to fall flat, getting strung out before they can step up under themselves into the lope.
> If they get strung out they just tend to trot faster to get to the lope.
> Move his hip over, keep him picked up with your hand without binding him up until he is in the lope.
> Good luck!


I have to agree with you on that, I always film my rides and I noticed that I basically give him free rein when I ask for the transition. He puts his head up and then trots into the lope. Next time I'm going to keep him more collected, lean forward a bit on his outside front leg (I tend to lean backwards) and then ask. I did that once on accident yesterday and he did a perfect transition, so I guess that is how he works.


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## Dutch_Juniper (May 21, 2020)

tinyliny said:


> I didn't care for how that fellow was cranking on her face.
> I've seen folks who do this to an extreme, where they have the horse really canted to the inside, and it ends up 'loping' at an angle, sort of crabbing its way along, being held in the face with its head cranked down. It's usually in Western Pleasure, where the horse is forced to canter so slow, without any lift in front, that the only way it can avoid stepping on itself is to lope crooked. I'm sure you won't go that far, tho.


You are right, I do recognize this from the WP videos I have seen. I never understand why those 'high end' horses don't canter straight, in English riding you wouldn't get away with that. I tried moving the hip over when I was riding my lease horse yesterday, but that led to him picking up the wrong lead. I don't think this is how he was trained before I started riding him, so it's probably not necessary to ride him like that. I did learn a lot from this topic, Cowchick explanations led me to understand the expression and the things I see many riders do in AQHA videos on YT. I just don't think it's the right approach for the particular horse I am riding!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Moving the hip over is to set them up for the lope off, it's not meant to kept pressed over to create the crab walking lope you can see in WP.
For a comparison here is Tom Mccutcheon again(same trainer in the first video I posted) 10 years ago when he won a gold medal at WEG. About the 1.05 mark, he moves the hip over and two tracks a few steps, horse steps off into the lope but the horse isn't kept in that position. 





Here's a video I found where Richard Winters really simplifying setting a horse up for a lope departure. This is what I might use on a colt to start teaching it.


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## Dutch_Juniper (May 21, 2020)

That last video is very cool to see! Unfortunately currently beyond my own skill level. You are a lot further advanced than I am Cowchick, do you have any tips for me to get a horse to stop as neatly as Richard Winters does? The whoa on my lease horse is like a steam locomotive stopping compared to this young horse


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Dutch_Juniper said:


> That last video is very cool to see! Unfortunately currently beyond my own skill level.


I don't know your skill level but let's break it down a bit! 😁
Can you get your horse to lope, even with some trot steps?

Can you create the bend in your horse for a circle?









Has your instructor taught you to side pass or two track/leg yield your horse yet?

If you can do all three of these things you can do the exercise for the most part. If you need to break your horse down into the trot, then walk to get the stop then do so which leads me to the next part... and I'd recommend you do the next before starting on your lope departures.



Dutch_Juniper said:


> The whoa on my lease horse is like a steam locomotive stopping compared to this young horse


Transitions will greatly improve your stops. If he is one of those horses that gains steam the longer you let him go, trying to lope him down or wear him down into slowing down doesn't work. It just gets them hot and mad. Getting them to focus on you and what you want is the key. Doing a lot of walk, slow trot, walk transitions without pulling and fighting helps. (And without boring them!)
Only let him trot a few steps (don't let him build steam) before asking with your seat, bringing your energy down first and then using your hands for the walk. As he gets better be more specific about where you ask and nail the transition to an exact spot but that comes with time and practice as he learns to stay focused on you and not pick his own speed. 

As he gets this exercise you'll find he will get softer, he will be paying attention almost "hunting" for the transitions and it will really translate to being soft and hunting the stop as well.









I have an older horse who is reiner and old school cow horse bred, he has a big motor and this has helped a lot with his stops (he doesn't have the natural stop and draw my other horses have) and the ranch riding classes were great for schooling him on his dry work runs in the cow horse. We've placed very well in the ranch riding every time. The article you initially posted is correct, if you can nail your transitions, you'll score well. I've scored high marks for the notable difference between my gaits, for example, the jog and extended trot.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Dutch_Juniper said:


> That last video is very cool to see! Unfortunately currently beyond my own skill level. You are a lot further advanced than I am Cowchick, do you have any tips for me to get a horse to stop as neatly as Richard Winters does? The whoa on my lease horse is like a steam locomotive stopping compared to this young horse



I think that the second video will be easier for you to utilize, considering that Mr. Winters is riding in a snaffle, and a modified two handed style. He focuses more on the idea of , well, basically leg yielding the horse over, before asking for th new canter depart. This differs slightly from the the other video, where the teacher asks you to push only the hip over. 
Frankly, I am surprised the rider is not penalized in his ride for having his horse take several very sideways steps before he makes his canter depart. I've seen much better reining patterns than that.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I think that the second video will be easier for you to utilize, considering that Mr. Winters is riding in a snaffle, and a modified two handed style. He focuses more on the idea of , well, basically leg yielding the horse over, before asking for th new canter depart. This differs slightly from the the other video, where the teacher asks you to push only the hip over.


I agree. I posted the first video to show what the article Dutch was asking about is referring to.
The concept is the same in both videos. The Richard Winters video is what I'd use for a colt. Tom's video is for a more advanced horse and closer to what I'd work towards after using Richard's method.




tinyliny said:


> Frankly, I am surprised the rider is not penalized in his ride for having his horse take several very sideways steps before he makes his canter depart. I've seen much better reining patterns than that.


There were no trot steps(1/2 point to 2 points depending on how many trot strides), he didn't stop the horse after he started him(DQ) and the lope departure was completed before the first 1/4 of the circle.
A horse that performed the maneuver with less walk steps may score higher due to degree of difficulty.

I agree there are better patterns but I wanted to show the same trainer performing the lope off in relation to the terminology asked about and the first video I posted. Dutch is looking to compete in ranch riding not reining but the reining videos were easy to find for a visual reference showing the terminology and the maneuver.
And all though Toms WEG was not the best lope departure, Tom has won about 2 million dollars. I can't say that I have won that much..LOL

Here about the 1.10 mark, Matt Koch at AQHA Jr. Working Cow Horse World Finals, you can see the lope off from behind the horse.





Sarah Dawson's great run(Richard Winters daughter) AQHA Jr. Working Cow Horse World Finals. You can see her really pretty lope off in the first 15 seconds.


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## Dutch_Juniper (May 21, 2020)

> I don't know your skill level but let's break it down a bit! 😁
> Can you get your horse to lope, even with some trot steps? Can you create the bend in your horse for a circle?
> Has your instructor taught you to side pass or two track/leg yield your horse yet?


You know what, we can do all those things! I think I was mainly very intimated by the video. In one of your earlier posts you mentioned getting the horse more bridled up before lead departures. I tried that the other day (getting him collected, not pulling him face) and it worked very well! All of a sudden we did lead departures without rushing, it was almost magical. 



> Transitions will greatly improve your stops. Doing a lot of walk, slow trot, walk transitions without pulling and fighting helps.


I am going to try this tonight! The thing is that this horse knows all these things (side passing, turns, roll backs, non-sliding stops, etc.), but it is up to me to ask for it. In 2 weeks we are having our first ranch show ever. We'll be competing in a ranch riding pattern class, a rail class, and a (regular) reining class. Obviously I'm going to take the reining class at out own pace, which include slow turns instead of spins, and careful regular stops instead of sliding stops. It doesn't matter, this will be our first class today and I want to use it to get rid of my nerves.

I liked reading you guys' posts and watching the videos as visual examples. I noticed in a few of the reining videos that the guys pull really hard when they make the horse stop. Is this normal? 

And a second thing I wanted to ask..is a spin essentially a quick turn on the haunches (in terms of aids you give to the horse and the things the horse does with its body), and is a roll back just half a spin/turn?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Dutch_Juniper said:


> You know what, we can do all those things! I think I was mainly very intimated by the video. In one of your earlier posts you mentioned getting the horse more bridled up before lead departures. I tried that the other day (getting him collected, not pulling him face) and it worked very well! All of a sudden we did lead departures without rushing, it was almost magical.


Great! 



Dutch_Juniper said:


> I am going to try this tonight! The thing is that this horse knows all these things (side passing, turns, roll backs, non-sliding stops, etc.), but it is up to me to ask for it. In 2 weeks we are having our first ranch show ever. We'll be competing in a ranch riding pattern class, a rail class, and a (regular) reining class. Obviously I'm going to take the reining class at out own pace, which include slow turns instead of spins, and careful regular stops instead of sliding stops. It doesn't matter, this will be our first class today and I want to use it to get rid of my nerves.


Don't get in a hurry, don't worry about other people and how they are warming up or schooling before classes. It's easy to get caught up in what others are doing and want to try what they are doing. Some of the best advice given to me was, show the horse you brought that day. Horses sometimes have bad days and they have great days, show the horse for the day you're there and have fun! 



Dutch_Juniper said:


> liked reading you guys' posts and watching the videos as visual examples. I noticed in a few of the reining videos that the guys pull really hard when they make the horse stop. Is this normal?


I'm guessing you're talking about the video with Opus Cat. He is a Jr. horse, young, 4-5 years old. Looks to be on the hotter/nervous side and very forward for a cow horse and pulled him into the ground for his stops. I think Matt did a great job showing him, the horse can take a pull despite being hotter. That may fade with age and getting hauled or it may not.



Dutch_Juniper said:


> And a second thing I wanted to ask..is a spin essentially a quick turn on the haunches (in terms of aids you give to the horse and the things the horse does with its body), and is a roll back just half a spin/turn?


Rollback and a spin are different and cued differently. 
A rollback is not asked for in cow horse dry work patterns and I don't think I've seen it in a ranch horse class, or at least I'm one I've entered. But they ask for them in NRHA and AQHA reining patterns.
For a Rollback there is very little hesitation between the stop and the Rollback. If go back to the videos of the cowhorses and watch them going down the fence and turning the cow on the fence is kind of a roll back. The movement is more forward than a spin. I'm not the best to differentiate because I haven't done a rollback in years and I don't practice them.
But I did a quick YouTube search, Matt Mills showing how he cues the roll back for comparison.





The spins are always set up and there is a hesitation between the stop and the spin. Even though the spin is a forward movement its a bit more rocked back than the roll back. You should feel the weight on the inside hind pivot foot, the outside front always crossing over inside front. The video with Shiney and Sarah, great spins.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Referring specifically to the lead departure, I really had an "AHA!" moment this year. 
I have always, always, always taught my horses the lead departure by really moving that hip over into position ... which does work. And the cue is very handy to be super subtle when doing a showing pattern, whether that is reining or ranch horse or whatever it may be. 

I went to a barrel racing clinic this spring, Paul Humphrey. It was incredible. A good horseman who has spent decades learning about horsemanship and applying it to the barrel pattern. To cue the horse to make the correct lead departure, he didn't do anything with the hip at all. Instead, he had each person use inside leg to forward and aterally move the ribcage and shoulders over and guess what? Nearly every single person got the correct lead departure nearly every single time; even on green horses that have never been asked that.

Now, for showing purposes, you can't have that much movement on your lead departure so ultimately training your horse to go off that outside leg is good, but WOW, it's given me such better tools for that inside leg to apply for teaching lead departures and also for flying lead changes. 

If you have the shoulders and the ribcage in the correct spot, the hindquarters will automatically be "pushed in". Every time. 

So food for thought.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I've learned recently with my mare that is pretty well schooled in bending around the inside leg, that the combination of inside leg on to get the bend and nudge nudge with the outside leg to move the hip in while she's bridled up and like a loaded "spring" is making lead departures NICE

Only a handful of rides into experimenting with this, but it seems to work well.


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## Elessar (Dec 28, 2011)

Great thread loaded with good stuff. Thanx to all.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

beau159 said:


> Referring specifically to the lead departure, I really had an "AHA!" moment this year.
> I have always, always, always taught my horses the lead departure by really moving that hip over into position ... which does work. And the cue is very handy to be super subtle when doing a showing pattern, whether that is reining or ranch horse or whatever it may be.
> 
> I went to a barrel racing clinic this spring, Paul Humphrey. It was incredible. A good horseman who has spent decades learning about horsemanship and applying it to the barrel pattern. To cue the horse to make the correct lead departure, he didn't do anything with the hip at all. Instead, he had each person use inside leg to forward and aterally move the ribcage and shoulders over and guess what? Nearly every single person got the correct lead departure nearly every single time; even on green horses that have never been asked that.
> ...



so, he used a leg in front of the girth to push the shoulders out, and then how to signal for the canter depart itself? outside leg back ?


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

@tinyliny I know your question wasn't aimed at me, but hey, sharing is caring 🤣

My horses know that when I pick up on my rein, it means something. Means I'm going to ask for something. There's a change in posture and energy in my horse when I pick up on my rein. Since I don't show, I post the trot 99.9% of the time so my horse is pretty understanding of me sitting down to drive with my seat and lifting my hand a little to ask for a lope, my legs are to offer support for picking up one lead or the other.

Here's a screenshot from one of my videos of Penny. It's the last couple trot strides before she picks up a lope, where I have her quite picked up.









Vs just trotting along in a circle:










In working on getting a lope with no trot steps in between, it takes a lot more from my seat and I think people don't realize how much fitness and strength it takes for the horse to be able to do it well.


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## Elessar (Dec 28, 2011)

My gelding is an enigma. I believe he was retired from barrel racing, probably for not being competitive. In any case, when he came to me, he was always very pushy and forward, wanting to run everywhere. This "out of control" behavior scared me and I've spent almost a year getting him to slow down and relax.

Now, I have a quiet ride but was having trouble getting him to "go." I've discovered his cues and have him moving out quite well and with pretty good energy and spirit. For a while, he was being lazy and enjoying the "slow" life of not needing to work too hard. Since I've discovered his cues, we've managed to work through smooth transitions for walk, trot and lope/canter. I'm still working but all gates are improving daily. My goal would be the flying lead change some day as well as the lop departure. But, one small step at a time. We'll get there together...

I appreciate the finer points presented here for what I'd refer to as body work; i.e. getting him to lift his shoulder and become engaged as we drive forward. Thanx to all...


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Penny is pretty lazy by nature so lope departures were kind of a faraway dream until I could find a way to unlock her ooomph. 
I've been finding that fitness and getting her strong enough so that collection was easier for her was the key. I think it takes a lot more fitness and strength from a horse to do these maneuvers than we give them credit for. In the last few months, she's really turned the page and has become a loaded spring underneath me when I'm asking for something. All I have to do is pick up my hand and change my seat and she's right there, it's a pretty awesome feeling.

I went back to the hackamore for a couple weeks to really try to nail this and just put her back in the bridle last night and got a short video. Her right lead has been the biggest struggle, so I was so thrilled that she got it first try. 

I'm sharing this here for the visual of cueing for this while facing the camera.


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## Dutch_Juniper (May 21, 2020)

QHriderKE said:


> Penny is pretty lazy by nature so lope departures were kind of a faraway dream until I could find a way to unlock her ooomph.


That looks amazing!


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