# This is just what I keep trying to say



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Sounds a lot like Caesar the dog whisperer, same exact philosophy. Very wise man here. Tom Dorrance is a very wise man as well. (I think that mule he has in the video is gorgeous for a mule, very nicely put together.)


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Excellent video, I see myself trying to humanize my horses. I regularly have a talk with myself that they aren't humans and more than that they are prey animals. Completely different in their thinking than even a dog. 
Leaving our emotions at the corral gate is more good advice. Thats one I have to remind my husband :lol: Gotta leave that anger and ego behind. Not an easy task sometimes.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

It reminds me a lot of Pat Parelli. We have something similar here in Australia, started by Carlos Tabernaberri. It's good to see that horsemanship hasn't dissolved completely. There are people who claim to be natural horsemen and women, but who still get angry and hit their horses. I'm not sure if you are one of those people who use crops, but I'm glad you posted this video. I try to point this out to people and I don't think I'm being clear enough =D Thank you


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> one of those people who use crops


Those evil, evil people.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I would use a bear trap if I thought it would communicate to the horse what I wanted. I see nothing wrong with crops or spurs as long as they are used without ego.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I understand. Why does everyone think I'm ignorant for refusing to use crops or spurs?? I have nothing against them. I just do not like the way some people use them.

I've had good enough relationships with my horses that no matter what the problem, it's nothing that couldn't be solved using correction without hitting them. I've never needed a crop. Or spurs.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm sorry. I'm a little offended by wild_spot's comment. I have nothing against them.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

That's a very good video. And he does remind me of the dog whisperer a lot. What is funny is I watch the Dog Whisperer quite frequently and I don't even have a dog! But I think what Cesar teaches (as far as being a calm assertive leader) also applies to horses, and that is what this gentleman is saying. 

I also really admire Cesar's ability to read the dog's body language. 

I am not a strong leader myself, but I am working on it. I have a good friend that always says "fake it till you make it." Sometimes I will get on a horse and I am a bit nervous because I don't know the animal well or the horse is nervous about something, and I will just try to take charge in calm but assertive way and "fake it till I make it." So that is something that is really changing my philosophy with horses. Actually taking charge and being a leader. Before I was more a passenger asking the horse pretty please to do as I asked. Not that I am a dominant person because I'm not, and I always hate to see people get into a battle with a horse, but just being positive and firm and expecting the horse to do what I ask, instead of being afraid to insist he follow through.

On the opposite end of the spectrum are the folks who seem to get mad at the horse and battle it out with them. I just hate to see that. Why get everyone's energy level all up when if they were patient they would get the same result? Almost like they take it personal if the horse doesn't respond in the way they expect. Anyway, I am getting off topic here I guess!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I figured wild_spot was being sarcastic.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow, thank you for posting that Kevin. That is a very good video and I like his way of thinking for the most part. I hate it when people try to go all Freud on their horses. They don't need friends, they have friends in the pasture. They need a leader and it needs to be someone worthy of listening to when the chips are down.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Agreed Trailhorse, I like the way he asserts himself, does not get emotional and does not coddle the critter in question. I also like the philosophy they both share that there are no problem animals, just animals with problems.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

Trailhorserider: I know wild_spot was being sarcastic. That's what hurt. Her response held implications towards my being ignorant and I dunno...it felt like she was mocking me and what I believe. She doesn't have to believe it, just accept that that's what I know and like. I didn't see the guy use a crop to correct his horse, so I assumed that's what everyone saw. Silly, I know. Don't assume.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Sorry, I guess I wasn't reading carefully and I missed that. That's what I get for just skimming the posts.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Here is my thought on spurs and crops. If you have never needed to use a spur or a crop you are either riding some exceptional horses (unlikely but possible) or you are not asking much of them. If you are pushing your horses to achieve more than they can give easily sometimes you will need to offer a little more incentive to get there. If you are fine with whatever your horse will give then so am I and I'll bet your horse is too. As for me I want a little more than that.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> If you are pushing your horses to achieve more than they can give easily sometimes you will need to offer a little more incentive to get there. If you are fine with whatever your horse will give then so am I and I'll bet your horse is too. As for me I want a little more than that.


I would like this quote on a tshirt please.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Thank you so much for posting that! Smrobs basically said what I wanted to say for the most part, only she was way more eloquent than I'll ever be. Haha

The other thing I'm thinking is that, emotions have a place, a very small place, too, with animals. I think a lot of times people use them WAY too much when they're working with their animals. But I mean, how can you enjoy your horse as a partner or exalt in the beauty of the relationship the two of you have, if you don't use emotion? Maybe I'm being way too obtuse with this and no one is saying that that sort of emotion is uncalled for, but I don't get it. 
I know there is an obvious difference, I mean, if I spent the 6 months Lacey spent trying to annihilate me being all "oh noes! The pretty pony doesn't seem to like me on her back!" and crying about it, instead of systematically working at fixing the issue and reading every horse training book I could find until I figured out what she was trying to tell me, I would be way way farther behind with her than I am. 
Maybe that's what you all mean, training horses emotionlessly, as in: not taking a horses issues as an affront to your own ego and instead solving the issue without turning it into a battle of wills... Yeah?

It's late, I should stop posting senseless things. Haha

I agree with Honeysuga! T-shirts please! :lol:


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm sorry you were offended, but I was also offended by the 'tone' of your comment about 'those people' who use crops. Personally, I don't use them, ever, I haven't found a need. However, I don't label those who do as 'those people' - They are just riders who use different methods than myself.

Live and let live I say - If you choose not to use spurs and crops, fine, all power to you. I choose not to use crops, but I do use spurs. There are plenty of people who choose to use both. None of those choices are wrong, they are just different.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I am one of 'those people'. 

A crop is an aid, not a punishment. I don't "get angry and hit my horse."; I use a stick to reinforce my leg aid, ensure my horse is attentive and in front of my leg. Carrying or using a crop appropriately does not automatically call your horsemanship into question, which is what Dark Willow's post implied. 

If I were the type of person to take offense, I'd find that a lot more offensive than wild_spot's sarcasm. 

Loved Kevinhorse's post on the subject, as usual. And liked the video. A reminder not to humanize the horse, or anthropomorphize, is always timely.


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## foreignmusic (Mar 7, 2010)

If I was awake enough to think better this morning, I would repeat Maura word for word.

Being a long time Tom Dorrance fan, I was most interested in the posted video. I was not disappointed.

Thank you, Kevin : )


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

darkwillow said:


> It reminds me a lot of Pat Parelli. I'm not sure if you are one of those *people who use crops*, but I'm glad you posted this video.


Parelli should be evil then! He (as well as CA and other NH people) use HUGE carrot sticks! :lol: 

P.S. I'm bad, I use crop (instead of spurs) once next to my leg when my horse refuses to move from pressure. :shock:


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Brilliant video! Agree 100%, and thanks for posting, Kevins! 

I'm one of "those people", too. :lol: If I need it, I'll use a crop, and the only reason I don't use spurs is because I don't think my leg is good enough to use them correctly, a fault that I'm working on. It isn't that you're riding with an artificial aid, it's how that aid is being used, whether as an aid and without emotion attached, or emotionally (either nagging "grandma with cookies" constant ineffective bumping, or anger driven jabbing).


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## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

Video was great. Just what I like, simple, straight-forward and honest, deploying common sense. I'm apt to trust a slow-speaking man that wears suspenders with his levis, lol.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Scoutrider brought up another good point in the video. In a bad situation who are you going to follow, Grandma with a plate of cookies or the person you respect and who you know will make the right decision? 
Thats why its more important to have the respect of our horses than their love (yes, I believe they can display a sort of love). I'd rather have a horse that listened to me because it respected my authority, then one who was after the cookies in my pocket.


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## Rule of Reason (Feb 11, 2010)

darkwillow said:


> I understand. Why does everyone think I'm ignorant for refusing to use crops or spurs?? I have nothing against them. I just do not like the way some people use them.
> 
> I've had good enough relationships with my horses that no matter what the problem, it's nothing that couldn't be solved using correction without hitting them. I've never needed a crop. Or spurs.


Nobody said you were ignorant. But your tone, the "those people" comment, put all of us who do use crops and/or spurs in a single category that sounded pretty awful. If you have no objection to them in general, you would have worded it more carefully. That's why people are reacting, because you offended THEM.

Please read and think about Kevin's excellent post about the proper use of these artificial aids, and don't assume that every time they're used they are hurting the horse. Because a spur or whip touches a smaller area of the horse's body than your heel can, and because the whip especially can reach parts of the horse's body that your heel can't, they can provide important, clear information sometimes to help your horse understand what you want. Of course they can be and are often overused, but that doesn't mean nobody should ever use them for anything.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

He contradicted himself when he said: Animals are not emotionally driven.

The mule nips at him and he says she did it because she was bored. Boredom is an emotional state. Therefore, the mule was in fact emotionally driven.

He said 98% of the time when horses 'talk' that it's because of anxiety, excitement...both of those are emotional states, therefore the horse is emotionally driven in that example as well.

Horses want a leader because a leader provides a sense of safety and security. Feeling safe and secure is partly an emotional state, therefore horses are indeed emotionally driven.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Vidaloco said:


> _Thats why its more important to have the respect of our horses than their love_(yes, I believe they can display a sort of love). I'd rather have a horse that listened to me because it respected my authority, then one who was after the cookies in my pocket.


I disagree with the that, Maureen, to certain extend. It depends on person of course, but to me that's equally important in my own horses (although I don't care much about love from, say, lesson horses even though I always bring a treat to give after the lesson). My horses don't look for treats, grain or safety when I come to the field, they are just happy to see me.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

I have watched that video before and really agree with a lot of his philosophy. I would like to see some of the zebras he has trained. I always am up for a Tom Dorrance story. I am a firm believer that people would learn more about "natural horsemanship" if they were to watch a herd of horses during feed time. I spent some time with a trainer who took the time to do this with me. We watched his horses for close to 45 minutes. During this time I learned more about horses respect than anything anyone could have explained. I learned to read each horse, we spent time pointing out which horses were nervous, or frightened and the signs that pointed to it. It is more than just reading their ears, eyes, and if they lick their lips. Where is their tail laying? What stance do they have and which muscle groups are they using? I also learned a great deal about the way horses communicate with each other. After watching these horses kick, buck, and bite I get nervous anytime someone tells me that kicking or smacking their horse is abuse. Is it abuse when the horse bites another horse and breaks skin? I am never going to break skin by kicking or hitting my horse on the butt with a rein. 

I agree with Kevin that if you don't use these aids most likely you aren't asking very much of your horse. But I also believe as with any aid, the rider needs to be educated before the horse. If you are not a confident rider don't buy spurs! When you get nervous you will suck your legs in and find yourself in a rodeo. As Josh Foster said "their is a difference between being mean and correcting" For those of us who keep our horses in pastures instead of stables have most likely seen a horse rear back and kick at or even strike another horse square in the ribs. They do this to move the opposing horse out of their space. Their are two points to learn from this, first being the horse got his point across to get out of my space by being firm enough and then releasing. Abuse would be if the horse kicked and kicked and killed the opposing horse. Instead as soon as he got out of his space he released and went back to his business. The other point is physically impossible for someone my size (I am a fairly good sized man) to hit that horse in the ribs as strong as the first horse did. Therefore it would be very difficult for me to injure the horse by smacking it. If I present myself as a leader and he doesn't respond then I need to communicate as firmly as needed to the horse my leadership and then present the release so the horse learns. Horsemanship is like dancing their can be a leader or an inexperienced follower who just gets their toes stepped on. You need to decide which one you want to be and then communicate it to the horse.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Toymanator said:


> Abuse would be if the horse kicked and kicked and killed the opposing horse.


Which does happen.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Toymanator said:


> Is it abuse when the horse bites another horse and breaks skin?


It's not an abuse, but if one horse does it repeatedly on others it should be isolated IMO. In wild horses have enough space to get away from the aggression, in many places people don't have a luxury of 10-20-50 acres to keep horses on. So when my horse was beat up by the aggressive gelding (and she was twice smaller youngster) and the owner considered that to be a "normal horse behavior" (on 1 acre or so) I just moved them.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If someone said that the sun rises in the east you would probably argue that point as well. Very few horses kill each other and you know that yet you still insist on arguing. Don't do to this thread what you have done to others.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I agree with a lot of the posts here and especially with the original post and video. 
As far as him talking about horses not being "emotional" I think he was using it as a euphemism. They learn better when they are calm and not "emotional". When they are not excited, nervous, scared, etc. I also think he meant that they do not have "human" emotions. They don't love like we do, they don't rationalize like we do, and they don't hate and hold grudges like we do. That's not to say they don't have their own forms of emotions including love, hate and rationalization but far be it from me to try to explain the intricacies of the equine brain. 

They need black and white. If they do this, it isn't fun. If they do this, they get left alone. If they do this, then they get a reward. He is simply saying take the ego, the emotions and the stress out of training and make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy. And treat them like horses...not people or dogs or cats or bears. Treat them as equals, in their way with "leadership energy" and you will get a calm, willing partner. 

And to the crop/spurs debate and the general public. This is in no way aimed at anyone but I think everyone should read it =).

Training horses is like having a religion. Everyone has one. They are all similar yet nobody will admit it. So, I have mine you have yours. Don't force your philosophies down my throat and I will extend the same courtesy. 

However don't expect me to not question blatant fallacies, contradictions you make or things I think that are wrong or potentially dangerous. If that makes me a b*tch then so be it, but I'm here to learn and ask questions and help people if I can. I'm not here to stroke your ego or subscribe to your way of thinking. I will probably agree with you sometimes and disagree with you other times. It's not personal so don't take it personal. Let yourself see the other side of a debate or discussion sometime and learn something from it.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> If someone said that the sun rises in the east you would probably argue that point as well. Very few horses kill each other and you know that yet you still insist on arguing. Don't do to this thread what you have done to others.


Who you talking to you? Not seeing anyone arguing, simply stating facts.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> As far as him talking about horses not being "emotional" I think he was using it as a euphemism.


No, I quoted him from the video...He said, "They are not emotionally driven."

How is that a euphemism for something else? 

I would completely agree had he said, what you've said here: 

*They learn better when they are calm and not "emotional". When they are not excited, nervous, scared, etc. 

*


> I also think he meant that they do not have "human" emotions. They don't love like we do, they don't rationalize like we do, and they don't hate and hold grudges like we do.


So, when we (people) feel anxiety it's different from animals feeling anxiety? How so? Don't our bodies respond in the same way...heart rate increases, respiratory rate rises, adrenaline floods the body, certain muscle groups tense, and we look for a way out.

I'll give you the rationalization part...I believe the studies have shown horses to reason at a level 3...been awhile since I've read them.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

When I think of the word emotion the first emotion that pops into my head is not anxiety. It is love, hate, and then down the list. I took it to mean that he thought the same way I do. I cannot say for sure as I am not him. I suggest writing him a letter or email and asking him to explain further his philosophy. I believe he would, and I also believe that the general population would love to know the answer as well. Let us know if you pursue the matter.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Mercedes said:


> I'll give you the rationalization part...*I believe the studies have shown horses to reason at a level 3*...been awhile since I've read them.


What level _people _reason at?


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> What level _people _reason at?


If I remember correctly, reasoning goes up to level 5...which is a fully functioning adult mind..passed the teenage years of course when hormones affect thinking.

Level 3 was around the age of 5 years olds...again, if I remember correctly.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> When I think of the word emotion the first emotion that pops into my head is not anxiety. It is love, hate, and then down the list. I took it to mean that he thought the same way I do. I cannot say for sure as I am not him. I suggest writing him a letter or email and asking him to explain further his philosophy. I believe he would, and I also believe that the general population would love to know the answer as well. Let us know if you pursue the matter.


Somebody get me his phone number and I'll call him up and ask him.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

*JOSH FOSTER*
Josh has been training horses, donkeys and mules for the better part of 30 years. He was also an AFA certified farrier, and worked under some of the best farrier in the country. In his life, he has run the gamut of training from rodeo saddle horses, to cutting, reining, hunting, packing, ranch animals, as well as all phases of driving. He is working with a couple of our volunteer trainers to increase their skills. He is the guy you want to talk to about burros.
Josh is training an “Estray” mustang to cart for the Save a Life program to demonstrate the versatility of mustangs.
*Reno, Nevada *
*(775) 424-3421*
*
*


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Mercedes said:


> If I remember correctly, reasoning goes up to level 5...which is a fully functioning adult mind..passed the teenage years of course when hormones affect thinking.
> 
> Level 3 was around the age of 5 years olds...again, if I remember correctly.


That's very interesting. I've seen the recent research on dogs and the smartest breeds (I believe it was collie, but I may be wrong) are at least as smart as 5 years old kid plus some shown really good ability to count and such.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> *They learn better when they are calm and not "emotional". When they are not excited, nervous, scared, etc. *


Would anyone care to argue that this is not equally true of humans?


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Nope I agree. You could also throw out there if we learn better that way and they learn better that way, then why do we not put our horses in this state to "teach them something"?


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I remember reading that pigs are about as smart as 5 year olds too. Not sure if it's actually true though or even where I read it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Pigs are smarter than horses and most dogs and I'll bet Mercedes would argue with one.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

LMFAO! No offense Mercedes but he has a point. That and the mental picture of you and a pig glaring at your computer screens furiously typing responses to each other on HF have me rolling on the floor...


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Terrific video! Who is that guy?! First time I ever heard of him. By coincidence it was just yesterday, thinking how nicely things were going with my horses, I was wondering if it's not because I'm getting older (and wiser?) but _slower._ Ha ha! Yep, guess it's the _slower._


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> *JOSH FOSTER*
> 
> *Reno, Nevada *
> *(775) 424-3421*
> ...


Cool, I'll let you know what he says.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Pigs are smarter than horses and most dogs and I'll bet Mercedes would argue with one.


Well, I'm here aren't I? Apparently, I'm not particularly picky about whom or what I argue with...though I haven't actually started arguing. 

I'm still open to your or anyone else's interpretation of the clear contradiction in the video. That you haven't been able to offer one is interesting. Nittany at least thinks it's a euphemism for something else, though I can't imagine that what he said was a substitution for an otherwise indelicate or unpleasant term...which is the definition of euphemism.

Overall, he's probably a very good trainer and I don't actually disagree with the gist of his message, but I would like to know how he can make a statement like that and then give clear examples of the exact opposite in the same video.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> LMFAO! No offense Mercedes but he has a point. That and the mental picture of you and a pig glaring at your computer screens furiously typing responses to each other on HF have me rolling on the floor...


It's all good. I can't be offended, unless I want to be. My observation is valid, and I know it is, and Kevin knows it is, or he wouldn't be so bent out of shape.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Wow, I left the forum last night with this a 2 page thread...my how it grew! Looks to me like another brilliant original post thrown down the crapper by arguing... such a shame.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> Wow, I left the forum last night with this a 2 page thread...my how it grew!


Well, yeah. I posted something that wasn't on the bandwagon, even though I'm essentially on it. You shouldn't sleep...that's when all the good stuff happens.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I know right? I will have to put a coffee maker next to the computer from now on! *sigh* one of these days someone is just going to track you down and run you over with their bandwagon and where will you be then? lol Arguing with the ground as to who smushed into who! hehehehe


But on a more serious note, Kevin dearest, if you are still around, could you help me out really quick? What literature would you suggest if one were to want to learn more about Mr. Dorrance and Hunt and such?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Well Honey, I would (and have) read True Horsemanship through Feel (Bill Dorrance) True Unity (Tom Dorrance) and Think Harmony with Horses (Ray Hunt). None of them are light reading. It takes some study to understand the concepts that they are trying to put on paper. Ray Hunt actually didn't sell his book at any of his clinics and would even refuse to sign a copy because he did not like how the book turned out. I thought it was quite helpful and a good read. There are also some videos that are taken from actual clinics that are very helpful. I saw a Ray Hunt video about ten years ago that showed him loading a horse in a trailer and several other things that people have trouble with. I can't remember the name of it but there are several sold on his website.

Ray Hunt - Master of Communication

They aren't $200 either but you do have to buy your own halter and stick.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> But on a more serious note, Kevin dearest, if you are still around, could you help me out really quick? What literature would you suggest if one were to want to learn more about Mr. Dorrance and Hunt and such?


I may not be Kevin, but I will give you my list of books I have read. "True Horsemanship through Feel" by Bill Dorrance and Leslie Desmond. A few years ago they printed the second edition of this book. It can be a difficult read, not because of the content but because of the way it was written. It is written by trainers not eloquent authors. But invaluable information none the less. For Ray Hunt I would recommend "Think Harmony with Horses" by Ray Hunt. It is a shorter read, but has some great information to understand the philosophy. I would also recommend "The Faraway Horses" by Buck Brannaman. This is the easiest read of these books and contains the least amount of information. But I learned some good things from this book and believe in what he does. Buck has been influenced a lot throughout the years from the Dorrance brothers and Ray Hunt.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Thanks Kevin and Toy, I am an avid reader so I don't really mind that they are a little deeper. Thanks so much.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Well Honey, I would (and have) read True Horsemanship through Feel (Bill Dorrance) True Unity (Tom Dorrance) and Think Harmony with Horses (Ray Hunt). None of them are light reading. It takes some study to understand the concepts that they are trying to put on paper. Ray Hunt actually didn't sell his book at any of his clinics and would even refuse to sign a copy because he did not like how the book turned out. I thought it was quite helpful and a good read. There are also some videos that are taken from actual clinics that are very helpful. I saw a Ray Hunt video about ten years ago that showed him loading a horse in a trailer and several other things that people have trouble with. I can't remember the name of it but there are several sold on his website.
> 
> Ray Hunt - Master of Communication
> 
> They aren't $200 either but you do have to buy your own halter and stick.





Toymanator said:


> I may not be Kevin, but I will give you my list of books I have read. "True Horsemanship through Feel" by Bill Dorrance and Leslie Desmond. A few years ago they printed the second edition of this book. It can be a difficult read, not because of the content but because of the way it was written. It is written by trainers not eloquent authors. But invaluable information none the less. For Ray Hunt I would recommend "Think Harmony with Horses" by Ray Hunt. It is a shorter read, but has some great information to understand the philosophy. I would also recommend "The Faraway Horses" by Buck Brannaman. This is the easiest read of these books and contains the least amount of information. But I learned some good things from this book and believe in what he does. Buck has been influenced a lot throughout the years from the Dorrance brothers and Ray Hunt.


Are you sure you two aren't the same person?  Teehee.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> One of these days someone is just going to track you down and run you over with their bandwagon and where will you be then? lol Arguing with the ground as to who smushed into who! hehehehe


I've actually met (in person) a couple dozen people from the internet through a number of horse BB's over the last decade or so. Just met another one a week and a half ago. Nobody's smushed me yet. I'm just misunderstood. I blame my Mommy and Daddy for that too. :lol:

And yes, Kevin, I have read all of those books. Good books.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> Are you sure you two aren't the same person?  Teehee.



Great minds think alike!:lol:


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> I've actually met (in person) a couple dozen people from the internet through a number of horse BB's over the last decade or so. Just met another one a week and a half ago. Nobody's smushed me yet. I'm just misunderstood. I blame my Mommy and Daddy for that too. :lol:
> 
> And yes, Kevin, I have read all of those books. Good books.


I appreciate your opinions but it sometimes gets out of hand. I am the same way. My wife gets mad and says I think my opinions are always right. Well of course I think I'm right I wouldn't take a position I thought was wrong!


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> Wow, I left the forum last night with this a 2 page thread...my how it grew! Looks to me like another brilliant original post thrown down the crapper by arguing... such a shame.


This isn't necessarily aimed at you, but you are included. 

You all need to hop off of the emotion train and learn to stop assuming how people are saying things in their posts. Read the text, and don't put a "tone" behind it. 

As I mentioned in another thread, I've been a very active participant in just about every myspace horse group, animal welfare group, and many inbetween for a very, very long time. I've seen just about everything happen on an online forum that you could possibly imagine... trolls, gangs, pictures posted of a kitten being maimed throughout 40+ pages of topics... What I've seen the most, is people mistaking intelligent debate and arguing. 

There is no arguing going on in this thread. Not at all. There is one group that totally agrees with everything that the video says, and there is another group challenging and offering rebuttal to the video. 

THIS IS NORMAL. There is no name calling, no whining, none of that. You will never find a single topic, especially on a horse group, where someone doesn't have a different idea, perspective, and thought process about that very same topic. 

It is SO healthy to learn different ways of doing things. It opens your mind. 

This thread is far from ruined, it is actually very informative and a great read. So many on this forum are. 


So seriously. Step back, breathe, and don't get so defensive when someone offers an alternative. I've never seen Mercedes throw around swears or anything remotely horrible. Just another opinion. 

Think about it.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Wow...chill pill please.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Honeysuga said:


> Looks to me like another brilliant original post thrown down the crapper by arguing... such a shame.


Nope.

If the video were in the video section you may be partially right but it is in the training section and open to comments about what is in the video.

The point being DEBATED is valid and too many assess emotions or an emotional state to their horse when in fact horse act and react to stimulous and their surroundings.

What you are calling "thrown down the crapper" is in fact passion about what we all have an interest in and the best debates with the most information is usually the result of passionate people in full debate mode.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

You just completely proved my point. 

Thanks!


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

That was for Honeysuga, not Spyder.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I stand corrected.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Spyder said:


> The point being DEBATED is valid and too many assess emotions or an emotional state to their horse when in fact horse act and react to stimulous and their surroundings.


So just for clarification Spyder. Do you believe that what Josh Foster said is correct or do you agree with Mercedes in that horses are emotional animals and Josh contradicted himself in the video? The way you worded it makes me a little confused...but I just worked three horses and fed 15 so I'm a little tired :shock:


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think we need to consider the definition of an emotion before the point can be debated. Regardless of what people think, most emotions are nothing but chemically triggered reactions in the brain. In that sense, both animals and humans have emotions and can be emotionally driven. I think the lesser extent of brain activity in an animal prevents it from confusing chemical reactions with thoughts of wants or needs as humans do. Animals can be emotionally driven, but it's not an irrational reaction like it can be in humans. It still has a reasoning behind it and it can still be shaped and molded based on the actions of the human.

I think people are to quick to consider the term "emotions" a human thing without thinking about what emotions technically are in the most basic scientific defintion.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I think we are confusing humanoid emotions with instinctual emotions. Horses are instinctually emotional creatures, they feel and react to fear or anger or kindness and some may even say they feel and react to love. However, even though they may feel those feelings, they don't react to them the way that a human would. They aren't nice to a person that they don't know because they are seeking love. And they don't hold grudges after they have been mad. They don't do things to change how they will feel in a week or a year, they react to how they feel at any particular moment.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> So just for clarification Spyder. Do you believe that what Josh Foster said is correct or do you agree with Mercedes in that horses are emotional animals and Josh contradicted himself in the video? The way you worded it makes me a little confused...but I just worked three horses and fed 15 so I'm a little tired :shock:


Don't change what I said. You did this in the other thread as well.

I did not say horses are emotional animals. I simply pointed out three examples given by Josh in his video, that showed animals being driven by emotions, which he claimed did not happen.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I think we need to consider the definition of an emotion before the point can be debated. Regardless of what people think, most emotions are nothing but chemically triggered reactions in the brain. In that sense, both animals and humans have emotions and can be emotionally driven. I think the lesser extent of brain activity in an animal prevents it from confusing chemical reactions with thoughts of wants or needs as humans do. Animals can be emotionally driven, but it's not an irrational reaction like it can be in humans. It still has a reasoning behind it and it can still be shaped and molded based on the actions of the human.
> 
> I think people are to quick to consider the term "emotions" a human thing without thinking about what emotions technically are in the most basic scientific defintion.



But one thing.... humans are animals as well.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Yes, from a strictly biological standpoint. However, we are the only members of the animal kingdom capable of advanced reasoning and cognition. That is the biggest difference.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> So just for clarification Spyder. Do you believe that what Josh Foster said is correct or do you agree with Mercedes in that horses are emotional animals and Josh contradicted himself in the video? The way you worded it makes me a little confused...but I just worked three horses and fed 15 so I'm a little tired :shock:



I have no sound on my computer.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Yes, from a strictly biological standpoint. However, we are the only members of the animal kingdom capable of advanced reasoning and cognition. That is the biggest difference.


True, I do like to point that out in debates like these, though.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> He contradicted himself when he said: Animals are not emotionally driven.
> 
> The mule nips at him and he says she did it because she was bored. Boredom is an emotional state. Therefore, the mule was in fact emotionally driven.
> 
> ...





Mercedes said:


> Don't change what I said. You did this in the other thread as well.
> 
> I did not say horses are emotional animals. I simply pointed out three examples given by Josh in his video, that showed animals being driven by emotions, which he claimed did not happen.


You said "therefore, horses are indeed emotionally driven." I did not quote you the first time but I assumed since you were pointing out that the horses were emotionally driven in his examples that you believed they were emotional animals, i.e driven by their emotions.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

Honeysuga said:


> Great minds think alike!:lol:


Wow, he beat me to the punch. He must have posted while I was typing mine. Nonetheless they are good reads!


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> You said "therefore, horses are indeed emotionally driven."


That was a statement based on what Josh said in his video. That was not me saying horses are emotional animals. '

That entire original post was an observation based on what I saw/heard in the video, it was not a post of my opinion on the subject.

As another poster has already eloquently explained...just read the words.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

smrobs said:


> Yes, from a strictly biological standpoint. However, we are the only members of the animal kingdom capable of advanced reasoning and cognition. That is the biggest difference.


Yeah, but in many situations people react as instinctively as horses, dogs, or any other animals. 

Speaking of animals in general I've seen (and read) many examples when what they did actually involved some thinking and was not just instinctive. 

I find it to be very interesting discussion overall (and Kevin, I've read before pigs are smarter then dogs, but personally never seen the proof of it :wink: ).


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I find it to be very interesting discussion overall (and Kevin, I've read before pigs are smarter then dogs, but personally never seen the proof of it :wink: ).


How do you feed horse, cows, dogs, nearly every other animal?

One meal at a time.

How do you feed pigs??

Put a weeks feed in front of them and they will not overeat.
A pig has a feeding place, a pooping place and a place to sleep and he will not mess in the wrong place.
They are neat animals and don't poop where they eat or sleep.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

I apparently read what you wrote differently than you meant it then Mercedes because I didn't realize that when you commented you would be simply pointing out errors in his theory and had no opinion on the matter...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RiosDad said:


> How do you feed horse, cows, dogs, nearly every other animal?
> 
> One meal at a time.
> 
> ...


RD, it's not the best example (at least in my case) 

1) I keep (nice quality and not cheap) dry food (and sometime even can food on top of it) almost all the time for cats (I have 3) and dogs (I have 2). They never over-eat and they are not obese. Of course cats have own toilets and dogs don't go in house. 

2) My paint Kiara always poops in same spot in stall - the most far from the hay rack (in morning there is a nice big pile of poops there). She also almost never pee in stall (when we let her out she runs out of stall and pee generally in same spot down the hill from barn, she also sometime refuses to walk to stall before she does her business). I havn't seen her pooping around the outside hay rack either - whenever I see she walks away in about the same spot. Jemma is more messy, but she rarely poops around the outside hay rack. 

The pigs I've seen in pastures around here (number of people around keep them) s** all over the place. You always have to watch out. :? May be it's different if you keep them in confined place.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> How do you feed horse, cows, dogs, nearly every other animal?
> 
> One meal at a time.
> 
> ...


Cats too. The studies they've done show that cats prefer to have two separate places for "bodily functions"; one for urinating, the other for defecating. Most cats you can put a week worth of food in front of them and they won't eat themselves sick. They might be fatter than you'd like, but they don't hurt themselves.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> How do you feed horse, cows, dogs, nearly every other animal?
> 
> One meal at a time.
> 
> ...


Well, actually, RiosDad, I feed several of my horses weeks and months at a time...it's called a round bale and a pasture, and interestingly enough, they'll stop eating when they aren't hungry.

Guess what else? They have a place where they poop and a place where they sleep, and they don't poop where they eat. Even the one horse that I stall is very specific about where he poos and pees and sleeps. He goes outside into his paddock to poo and pee and then either sleeps inside on his bedding, or outside in a place away from his poo and pee. He generally eats inside, but when it's nice out, he pulls all his food outside and eats out there.

Hmm...perhaps I own pigs and not horses? :wink:


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> I apparently read what you wrote differently than you meant it then Mercedes because I didn't realize that when you commented you would be simply pointing out errors in his theory and had no opinion on the matter...


The usage of the word *I* is required to determine for sure if it's someone's personal thoughts/opinion. 

I do have an opinion on the subject, I just haven't stated it. I was waiting for people to chew on the contradiction in his video, and to begin the thought process in their own heads of what he really meant, and then to discuss it here. You were actually the only one to attempt to explain it.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't have sound on my computer, so I wasn't going to attempt to determine what he meant without hearing it for myself. Really should get that fixed, but at the very least I'm enjoying reading the discussions.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I agree with Mercedes about horses being emotionally driven. It may not be on the same level as people, but emotions are emotions.

I also agree with all the people who agree that horses think. They do. How else would my horse have figured out how to open the gate on his own??


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I apologise about previous post and those I may have offended. Sorry.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> I agree with a lot of the posts here and especially with the original post and video.
> *As far as him talking about horses not being "emotional" I think he was using it as a euphemism. They learn better when they are calm and not "emotional". When they are not excited, nervous, scared, etc. I also think he meant that they do not have "human" emotions. They don't love like we do, they don't rationalize like we do, and they don't hate and hold grudges like we do. That's not to say they don't have their own forms of emotions including love, hate and rationalization but far be it from me to try to explain the intricacies of the equine brain. *
> 
> They need black and white. If they do this, it isn't fun. If they do this, they get left alone. If they do this, then they get a reward. He is simply saying take the ego, the emotions and the stress out of training and make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy. And treat them like horses...not people or dogs or cats or bears. Treat them as equals, in their way with "leadership energy" and you will get a calm, willing partner.
> ...


 
Excellent well said post 

And please everyone, stay on topic and don't overthink a simply stated video


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Well, actually, RiosDad, I feed several of my horses weeks and months at a time...it's called a round bale and a pasture, and interestingly enough, they'll stop eating when they aren't hungry.
> 
> Guess what else? They have a place where they poop and a place where they sleep, and they don't poop where they eat. Even the one horse that I stall is very specific about where he poos and pees and sleeps. He goes outside into his paddock to poo and pee and then either sleeps inside on his bedding, or outside in a place away from his poo and pee. He generally eats inside, but when it's nice out, he pulls all his food outside and eats out there.
> 
> Hmm...perhaps I own pigs and not horses? :wink:


Once again Mercedes you show me that I don't know much. I always worry that one of our horse's will break out of his stall and get into the 3 barrels of grain we have in the alleyway and gorge themselves, killing themselves.
It is nice to know that I can put that fear aside.
Thank you for letting me rest easy.:lol:


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Haha one of these days Mercedes and Riosdad...you're gonna just have to lay them on the table and measure. Until then we can enjoy the sparring. 

Also thanks Vidaloco, I tend to try to interpret things that confuse people so it's nice to know that sometimes I succeed =)


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Once again Mercedes you show me that I don't know much. I always worry that one of our horse's will break out of his stall and get into the 3 barrels of grain we have in the alleyway and gorge themselves, killing themselves.
> It is nice to know that I can put that fear aside.
> Thank you for letting me rest easy.:lol:


Well, see, that's why I don't keep my grain where horses can reach it should they 'escape'. :wink:


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> Well, see, that's why I don't keep my grain where horses can reach it should they 'escape'. :wink:


I thought your horses wouldn't overeat and you could feed them months in advance? Why do you insist on nitpicking everybodies statements. Learn to let things go and quit trashing threads. You know that's what your doing. If it's something worth arguing about then fire away but you are just as likely to start a multi page argument about the semantics of a sentence or the definition of one word. I enjoy your comments but sometimes you need to give it a rest.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I thought your horses wouldn't overeat and you could feed them months in advance? Why do you insist on nitpicking everybodies statements. Learn to let things go and quit trashing threads. You know that's what your doing. If it's something worth arguing about then fire away but you are just as likely to start a multi page argument about the semantics of a sentence or the definition of one word. I enjoy your comments but sometimes you need to give it a rest.


What did I say, Kevin? I said HAY AND PASTURE. I specified that. No where did RiosDad specify he was talking about grain. Lots of people don't feed their horses grain, so it still wouldn't have been an accurate statement. 

And it's not nitpicking or semantics where this video is concerned. Josh clearly said horses are not emotionally driven, and then clearly contradicts that statement with other things he says in his video, and you know it. That you want to just blow it off because you like his philosophy is irrelevant.

Having read the Dorrance brothers books, and understanding where they're coming from and the things they want/wanted to pass onto to others, what Josh should have said was, 'horses do not have ego.' That is a human thing. That was the lesson Tom wanted Josh to learn...have no ego. 

As one example of that; horses do not do things out of pride. Pride is pure ego. 

Thank you for taking the matter up with just me and not the other two who also disagreed with RiosDad's comments. And thank you as well for deciding for me what I need to do and how I need to be.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I was not just refering to this thread but almost every thread you have participated much in for the last few days.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Good Advice. Thanks for reminding me what I already knew, but tend to forget.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> Once again Mercedes you show me that I don't know much. I always worry that one of our horse's will break out of his stall and get into the 3 barrels of grain we have in the alleyway and gorge themselves, killing themselves.


But isn't that analogous to your picky eater kid who won't finish his veggies, but will gorge until he's sick on his Halloween candy?

Is intelligence really much of a factor here, or are eating styles just a reflection of how the various animals evolved to eat in their natural habitats? Wild horses spend a lot of time grazing on grass and such, foods that have a low energy density, and which are not going to run away. Wouldn't you thus expect a horse, given access to an unnaturally energy-dense food like grain, to eat as though they were grazing on grass? The dog - or rather the ancestral wolf - is a predator. Kills are costly but energy-dense. They may spoil or be stolen if not eaten right away, so there's a selective pressure to eat as much as possible when a meal is available. Their systems haven't evolved to expect regular meals.

And if you think humans are too intelligent to be affected by this, just hang out at your local fast-food joint or buffet restaurant for a while, and you will certainly see a number of humans who arguably are slowly killing themselves from overeating.


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## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> But isn't that analogous to your picky eater kid who won't finish his veggies, but will gorge until he's sick on his Halloween candy?
> 
> Is intelligence really much of a factor here, or are eating styles just a reflection of how the various animals evolved to eat in their natural habitats? Wild horses spend a lot of time grazing on grass and such, foods that have a low energy density, and which are not going to run away. Wouldn't you thus expect a horse, given access to an unnaturally energy-dense food like grain, to eat as though they were grazing on grass? The dog - or rather the ancestral wolf - is a predator. Kills are costly but energy-dense. They may spoil or be stolen if not eaten right away, so there's a selective pressure to eat as much as possible when a meal is available. Their systems haven't evolved to expect regular meals.
> 
> And if you think humans are too intelligent to be affected by this, just hang out at your local fast-food joint or buffet restaurant for a while, and you will certainly see a number of humans who arguably are slowly killing themselves from overeating.


I wasn't trying to start an arguement ment. I was just commenting on something I grew up with.
We had a large dairy operation and in another barn we bred and grew bigs.
We also had a chopping mill. It ground up the grain we grew on the farm.
We fed the cattle, the horses, one scoop at each feeding.
For the bigs who got the same grain we filled the hoppers full. It kept the bigs fed for the entire week. We only fed them on Saturdays.
As for bedding we made them a bed in the hardest to clean corner since they never defiled their sleeping area.
We made their toilet closest to the cleanout and that is where they always went.
They kept their eating area clean and other then what they carried on thier feet the area was ok.
We always thought the pigs very intelligent but Mercedes has shown me I really don't know much about pigs, horses or anything else.
I bow to her superior knowledge.
I also remember why I don't like dressage.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

There are many knowledgeable members on this forum and many who posted to this thread. A difference in opinion is part of what makes a forum and the insinuations, accusations, and downright belligerence does nothing for the learning process.

Keep snide remarks to yourselves and open your minds.


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## NittanyEquestrian (Mar 3, 2009)

Mercedes, take a moment and re-read. Kevin was only trying to point out a reason why he thinks that pigs are smarter than horses and I believe this point has already been scientifically proven. Yes some horses do separate their eating place from their sleeping and defecating areas. However most do not and Kevin was talking in generalizations. He also said that they fed the pigs for a whole week and they did not overreat. Pigs being fed in confined spaces get fed pretty much the same as cows and horse grains, as they try to get them to weight fast so they pack on the high dense nutrients in the feed. I've never seen pigs fed only hay. This is in no way the same as horses and a round bale. A horse with a round bale will not stop eating because it's smart it will stop eating because it gets gut fill and can't eat anymore at a particular time. It is physically impossible for a horse to overeat on a form of grass and we won't go into laminitis and founder as it isn't the same principle and for another discussion. However, grains and pelleted feeds are so nutritionally dense that it is possible for a horse to overload it's system and eat itself to death on these types of feeds before they reach gut fill. As someone pointed out, this is not because they are smart or stupid it is just how they are made. You never see overweight, foundered, lame mustangs. Is this because they are smarter than your average horse? Not really, it's because they have to work for and seek their food and water sources. They are also more dependent on the seasons and local availability of feeds so they too don't get the OPPORTUNITY to over eat on higher dense feeds than they need. That being said I do believe there is more cognitive development in a horse that has to "work" in some way for their feed, but it also generally makes them more hyper aware of their surroundings and can make them a harder ride for some people.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

NittanyEquestrian said:


> Mercedes, take a moment and re-read. Kevin was only trying to point out a reason why he thinks that pigs are smarter than horses and I believe this point has already been scientifically proven. Yes some horses do separate their eating place from their sleeping and defecating areas. However most do not and Kevin was talking in generalizations.He also said that they fed the pigs for a whole week and they did not overreat.


No, you are incorrect. It was RiosDad who said all that, not Kevin...see I am reading.

All Kevin said was: I quote: *Pigs are smarter than horses and most dogs and I'll bet Mercedes would argue with one.*

I've actually lived beside pig farmers before. I assure you, they did not put a weeks worth of food in front of the pigs. Their diet was as carefully controlled as any animal meant for human consumption is suppose to be controlled, and they were fed...to borrow RiosDad's statement...one meal at a time. RiosDad's experience has obviously been different in that regard.

Straight up, it's a bad example to be giving to back up the original statement made *unless* specified as such (which is was not originally):

You can put a week's worth of grain in front of a pig and they will not over eat. If you do that with a horse, they will eat all the grain in front of them in one sitting, or until they make themselves sick.

THEN, it would be up to each of us as individuals to decide if that is an example we will accept as showing the pig to be smarter than the horse.



> A horse with a round bale will not stop eating because it's smart it will stop eating because it gets gut fill and can't eat anymore at a particular time.


What you fail to take into account here is that a horse's digestive system works best when it's continually processing food. And that is why the horse eats at the round bale, or grazes in the pasture, for hours on end. It is their physical design that determines that, _instinctual_ intelligence, not their _gray matter_ intelligence.

Horses who escape from stalls and such and then get into grain and over eat, I will bet money, more often than not, have an empty stomach because they are not on free choice hay.

When horses are housed naturally...as in how nature intended them to be housed, and they can roam and graze and have access to all the grains, herbs, grasses and legumes they need to survive, you will never see a horse over eat on seeds (which is grains). They will in fact pick and choose quite carefully what they eat. 

In fact, I have seen my own horses seek out specific herbs at specific times of the year, and eat specific parts of the herb...whether it be the leaves, or the blooms, or the roots. I've seen horses pass up herbs that are toxic in bloom, and then come back to them months later when they have dried and are safe to eat. Golden rod as an example, it is toxic to horses when it's in bloom, but is safe to eat once it's dried out and it becomes good for treating gas, catarrh, indigestion, kidney and urinary problems etc... 

It is when we house and feed horses in a manner other than intended by nature that we run into problems. The result of that is not a less intelligent animal, but of one trying to adapt.


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## 7Ponies (May 21, 2009)

Great video.

I train dogs. I train people to train their dogs. Trust me it's easier to train dogs. LOL. It is very difficult to train people to train their dogs because the majority of people humanize their dogs. Once they realize a dog is NOT a human, the real work can begin and it goes so much better.

Be the leader, not a pack or herd member.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

> Horses who escape from stalls and such and then get into grain and over eat, I will bet money, more often than not, have an empty stomach because they are not on free choice hay.​




I just wanted to add that horses don't over indulge in grain when given the opportunity because they are lacking in hay or grain necessarily. I have witnessed a horse eat an entire bag of grain, even though he had free access to hay and was fed feed twice a day (of course I didn't actually watch him eat the grain or I would have stopped him....y'all know what I mean). I personally think that horses are grazers...nobody has bothered to tell them that grain is put together by humans and that it cannot be grazed on like grass or hay. It has nothing to do with a horses intelligence. I think the way a horse pees and poops is directly related to their grazing instinct as well. If you watch your horse graze in a big open pasture, I think you will see that he is always grazing and moving forward. Therefore, a horse peeing and pooping on the grass he just munched on also has nothing to do with their intelligence. That also has to do with them being grazers. Ideally, in the wild, if the horse makes it back to that spot, it wouldn't be a situation of having to eat where they poop, but a situation where they can eat the good green grass that they fertilized back in the day. 

​


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## travlingypsy (Apr 5, 2008)

Great vid, thanks for posting it. I now have another person to research yay!


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I believe that everyone who has posted on this thread is very intelligent and has "horse sense". (Excuse that horrible pun. XD) However, I also believe that most posters are over-analyzing others' remarks. Just take what you can from others's opinions. If you agree on something, fanstastic! If you don't, keep what they had to say in the back of your mind. Even though their ideas may seem far fetched or ridiculous at the time being, you never know when it may prove itself and come in handy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I would use a bear trap if I thought it would communicate to the horse what I wanted. I see nothing wrong with crops or spurs as long as they are used without ego.


Well, not sure on the bear trap, but I'm with you on the crops and spurs...if they are used properly, and not just to get your own frustration out on a horse. I will speak as softly or as loudly as necessary to a horse to get a point across...to some horses 'loud' is a simply point in the air, but to another you need to actually use the crop or stick on them to get the same point across, like "Go forward" or yield your hip...I won't allow a horse to run over me, just so I can claim I don't use crop or spur on them...they are much too big for that, and chances are I would be hurt long before he is (if I don't demand obedience)...soooo...


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