# Kodak spooked again... and I have a concussion



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

To be honest, I would probably sell her to someone else and find another horse that is suited to your skill level. It isn't about giving up on her but her issues seem to be above your skill level which isn't meant to cause you any offence but you seem to have tried lessons , desensitisation and she has improved a bit but she's still got a percentage of dangerous behaviour which could end in you getting seriously hurt.


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I think that gathering her reins when you saw your son coming down and when you saw that she was on high alert probably would have made a difference. Also asking for maneuvers that would keep her busy. 
I'm really sorry that you got hurt.

I kind of agree with Rainaisabelle.


----------



## Alder (Feb 15, 2017)

Wow, that's too bad, I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you have a speedy recovery. 
It sounds as though your daughter's horse stayed calm. Unfortunately your horse seems unpredictable and explosive 
All I can say, as a non expert, is that it's really important to be safe, so I agree with the above ^


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Q


> uite frankly, Kodak should be able to cope with that. What if we meet someone else on a trail? A jogger? A dog?


I AM going to tell you to trust her. 100%. You can rely on her totally. To be and act like a horse. trust her in the same way you 'trust' that bus! ;-)

So i agree with above posts. Sounds like she may be too much of a handful for you. I HATE the idea of people 'giving up' animals generally, but agree with Rains that it can be for the best all round - youre not 'giving up on her' just to admit youre not the best for eachother in this point of your life/skill.

hopefully you can find someone who can put in the training to teach her how to cope better with what she 'should' if going out on a trail, and you will find a horse that has already learned those lessons well, so its less(horses are all still horses...) worry/danger for you.


----------



## StarLover (Aug 1, 2017)

*Spooking*

I am so sorry:-( It must be so discouraging for you, I had that problem a lot with a horse that I am training but I got the spookiness out of her....Is your horse flighty? how I fixed the problem with the horse that I am training is I did tons of different things that might spook her (i did these things standing on the ground) Hiding in the bushes and popping out with an umbrella, Paper bags, tarps put the tarp over the horse and see what it does....thats all I have.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I don't think she's the horse for you 'right now'.
I think she could be the horse for you in several years time when you're a far more established confident rider but if you continue riding here you'll possibly never reach that point. 
I think there are people who can actually progress and improve from riding a challenging difficult horse but I firmly believe that the older you get and especially when you have a children it can have the opposite effect.
She was mis-sold to you but you could probably still rehome her and be honest about her failings.
What you and your daughter need is for you to have a good solid reliable horse that you can handle and ride without all of the hassles. This is the time when you should both be relaxing and having fun with your horses and you're not because sadly Kodak isn't the one for you to do that with


----------



## redbarron1010 (Mar 11, 2017)

I am sorry that happened. I agree with all of the posts, she may not be suited for you. Unfortunately, once the trust is broken, and you are seriously hurt, you will be twice as nervous getting on her again and set her up for the same scenario again. It is not a crime to rehome a horse to a rider that is more suited for them. It makes a happier situation for you and her. then find your self a horse more like Harley. That is why I personally like geldings more than mares, but that is just me. I think they tend to be more unflappable. I do not want a challenge like I did when I was younger. At my age (50+), it's enough of a challenge to make it up in the saddle on the first try! Good luck with your situation.


----------



## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I also agree, it doesn't sound like she is suitable for you. Don't want you getting hurt constantly either. I think any horse can be unpredictable, but you should enjoy being on your horse and not think 'oh no what if' every second...in this case, it just doesn't seem like you two mesh well. I think you should find a horse that can really build your confidence.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

So sorry to hear about your injury. Please go to the doctor, if you haven't already. A concussion is a serious injury and you cannot risk another injury to your head for quite some time. Months. 

Which means, unfortunately, that Kodak is officially on vacation for a while, or needs to go to a trainer (but why send her now when you won't be able to ride?)

I will go against the crowd and say although this has been a huge blow to your confidence, it doesn't mean you can't keep her and things will never get better. 

With a nervous horse, the rider has to be 100% calm at all times. 

If you can't be 100% calm at all times while mounted, then you have to get off when you become nervous or unsure. 

Horses are extremely sensitive, and their reactions are much, much faster than humans. You may have inadvertently signaled to her that your son was a danger and she must flee. 

In that same situation, when she became alert and you saw your son running, let me suggest a different action for you. 

One, you look at your son running with little dogs, and smile. Think "oh what a lovely sight! I think I'll sit here and enjoy watching for a while" Act bored. Your body language will relay to the horse that there is nothing to fear. 

Second option, if you think you can't carry off the 100% calm while mounted. 

Dismount. Stand there and ask your son to run right to you. Greet him calmly when he arrives. Have him give your horse a treat. Then ask him to walk with you a while. (mounted or not - whichever you are comfortable with). Ask him to return home and continue on your ride. 

Either mounted or unmounted, stand around for a while chatting with your son. Make sure your body language is 100% calm. Consider this a great opportunity to teach your horse about meeting people on the trail. 

Encourage your horse to relax, eat some grass, whatever. Only after she is calm, continue your ride. 

Meanwhile, while you can't ride until cleared by your doctor, you may be able to do ground work, and even take her for walks on the trails. 

It takes time and patience to teach her how to react to scary situations, but even a nervous horse can learn this.


----------



## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Really sorry to hear this. Falling off and getting hurt is horrible.


----------



## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

So so sorry this has happened to you. I hope you are feeling better soon.

In my experience, I have found that horses tend to react strongly to things that are not normally on the trail they know well. My heart horse, Chorro, is a real spooky mess, and today he jumped wildly when he saw a piece of Styrofoam along the road where we normally ride. He has ridden that road hundreds of times and is quite calm, but he was really upset to see that large white Styrofoam where it had never been before. Later on, when we got to the trail, we pass a pile of bricks, cinderblocks, and junk that the farmer piled there. He never reacts to that pile because we pass it 3 times a week. But today, the farmer had piled a red ladder, which never had been there before, and Chorro scooted wildly sideways when he saw the ladder.

Because Kodak knows your son and knows the trail, she didn't expect him to be in that place. In her mind, very different means very wrong.

I have no advice about whether to keep or sell Kodak, I hope I've explained why she might react so violently on a trail she is normally calm on.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I am sorry to hear about your situation, but I agree with AnitaAnne.

It is right here: "I yelled at him to let him know we were there. I think he had our dogs with him - they're dachshunds so very low to the ground...." 

You were worried, which worried Kodak.....tense rider= tense horse. Nervous rider=nervous horse. Horse smells adrenaline rise in rider= horse goes into flight mode.

I hope you are on the end quickly.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

First of all, *take yourself to the doctor.* You absolutely have a concussion. They may do nothing more than tell you "you have a concussion" but brain injuries are not something to take lightly. Some folks don't have real symptoms or problems pop up until days or weeks later, and you need to be proactive and take care of yourself. 

Secondly, I think you do need to have a true discussion with yourself. Is Kodak the right horse for you right now? Are you still enjoying yourself? Or are you worried about what might happen next? Horse ownership and riding is supposed to be fun .... is it?

From an outsider looking in, based on the numerous threads you have made about Kodak, I would advise you to *sell her* and find a different horse that is going to work better for you at this point in time.

The way you describe the situation, it could have been de-escalated before she spooked. (Getting her attention immediately when you knew a "scary" situation was unfolding in front of you.) And/or the spook could have been handled easily by someone more experienced. I don't say that with any intent to put you down, but you are very honest with your level of riding. Someone with more experience probably would have sat her spook no problem, even with the spin. 

And it's possible that Kodak may not have spooked with someone more confident on their back. I'll bet you subconsciously tensed up. Maybe she would have spooked anyway .... but I'm kind of agreeing with the others that Kodak is just not a good fit for you right now. No fault of yours - no fault of hers. But that match just isn't there. And there is absolutely no shame in that. Remember .... horse riding is supposed to be FUN.

Is this still fun for you? Think about that.


----------



## QueenofFrance08 (May 16, 2017)

Now obviously I don't know you but I've read a lot of your posts and to me it seems like it might be best to rehome her. I think you deserve to have a horse that you enjoy riding 100% of the time and don't always have it in the back of your mind that she might lose it at any moment. It's not fun riding a horse you're scared of and one that hurts you. Obviously no horse is perfect and any can spook but there are certainly more reliable ones out there. 

I'm sorry it happened and I hope you heal quickly! I'm recovering from a broken collar bone right now and I'm so sick of being hurt!


----------



## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

I agree that you should go see a doctor. I'm sorry that you had this spill....and it is disheartening that after all your work with her she has done this. I know it is hard and disappointing, but I don't think all is lost. 

Horses can react to things they should be familiar/we think they should be OK with if they are in a different setting. The only way to overcome this is to put them in lots of situations where they see things 'out of the norm'. For eg: I took Tiger for a trail ride. This horse is 19 years old and has seen everything. We have our holiday trailer parked right by his paddock - the neighbors kids always come ripping up our driveway on their dirtbikes - we also have big dogs that run around all the time. NBD. However, when we encountered these things on a trail ride, he lost his $hit. I ended up having to dismount and walk him past b/c he was acting so silly. The next time we saw these things, he was much better and it's like he could place them in his brain as being OK to see out on the trail, not just at home....kind of like a lightbulb came on. 

Another time we had a roll of wire hanging from a fence post at the corner of our driveway. I had to make Tiger do endless circles - keeping his attention on me before we could safely walk past. That wire was not normally there and scared him so badly. But by working him and keeping him listening to me, he finally decided the wire was not a big deal. 

There are ways for you to work with Kodak through this. I know the feeling of having your confidence shaken; whatever you decide to do, it won't be the wrong decision. Riding is supposed to be fun - whether you want to work with Kodak or you feel another horse might be more suitable. I really hope you are feeling better....please keep us posted on what the doctor says (GO to the doctor!)


----------



## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

My horses are about as chill as they come but they will still spook at seeing a person out on the trail, I guess because they think there shouldn't be hikers or bikers out in the middle of the woods. The difference is they freeze instead of bolt which gives me time to ask the person to talk. As soon as we start talking they realize it's just a person and will move on. Just telling you that so that you understand even the most unflappable horses will spook at things we think they shouldn't spook at but the key is how the horse reacts to being spooked. Getting them to freeze instead of bolt is a combination of the horse's personality, training, exposure and the rider's confidence and ability. 

Can Kodak be trained to be more confident and user friendly horse? She probably can be unless she has some deep seated psychological issue going on. The problem is they often revert back to being reactive when they go back to their owner, which has to do with the owner's confidence and ability. There is absolutely no shame in saying "I'm not up to this task" and looking for another horse that suits you better. 

Glad you weren't hurt any worse than you were but you should get your head checked out. You're the only person who can decide what route you want to take with Kodak but I wish you the best of luck in whichever direction you go.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Sorry to hear of your injury.

I'll summarize my life with Mia and let you decide if it has any relevance:

I learned to ride on her, and she started off extremely reactive. During the next 7 years she got better. Much better. Ended the bolting issues. Spinning around and trying to run away ended. On many rides, we could go with slack reins the entire ride and steer by leg. But even after 7 years, she would sometimes - about once a month - startle and throw in a 360-720 degree tight, violent spin.

They were not predictable. She wouldn't go on alert and then spin violently. I have sometimes wondered if it wasn't just a wire not connected in her brain. Last I heard, a year ago, she still did the monthly spin.

And after 7 years of riding, including having her trained by a pro for 4 months (with me doing the riding during the last 2 months), if she DID get nervous, it was hard to bring her down. If she went to full alert, she was at 200 degrees - not far from boiling over. If she boiled over, she would calm to 200 degrees, and it would take 15-30 minutes to get her fully relaxed again.

I did manage to stay on quite well. But to do so, I had to maintain a defensive seat all the time. I was at risk every time I relaxed. I spent a lot of time with one hand on the saddle horn because it could help my keep my shoulders over her back when she exploded. And it could be tough mounting up sometimes. I knew if she got excited that I would have 10 minutes minimum on a horse on the verge of losing control. It got to where I sometimes mounted up and felt like puking while Mia stood there, relaxed and unconcerned.

When the farrier I was using then wanted her to become a brood mare (she had excellent bloodlines for racing and he wanted to breed Arabians for racing), I hated giving her up. I hate selling a horse. Even if the person you sell them to loves horses, they may sell the horse later to someone who does not. The farrier & I parted ways, unfortunately, so I haven't heard anything since spring 2016 and probably won't. She's sold. Whatever happens to her now is out of my control - and I hate that.

OTOH, I swapped her for Bandit. He's not very good looking. And for the first 6 months, he was pretty spooky too. But the stuff I learned with Mia worked well with him. Two plus years later, I'm doing things with him I never dared to try with Mia. I don't have to spend the entire ride ready for a violent spin. I am discovering - and it took me 2 years to build the trust after my time on Mia - that I can ask him to canter in the open, and he won't lose his balance and doesn't lose his mind. 

He may never be a beginner's horse. I think he would take care of a beginner OK, but he'd also take charge of the ride. He was used for relay races and can get excited about speed, and competitive, and he isn't above throwing in some small bucks when frustrated or annoyed.

I still ride more defensively than most and probably always will. Bandit will sometimes startle hard, but he then waits for me to tell him what to do next. I simply don't have to worry about explosions, and he never dumps his mind. If he gets excited or upset, he may give a few crow hops or dance around, but he calms down again in 1-2 minutes.

I really miss Mia. I hope life is going good for her. But her odd violent spins and super-emotions meant we both could have been killed or injured by now. At a minimum, staying on her required constant work on my part. 

Meanwhile, Bandit and I are doing things I had given up hope of trying. I've become a much better rider because I can afford to ride better. And I'm learning to trust my horse to use good sense and to help keep us safe.

None of this may apply to you. Parting with Mia was hard. 2+ years later, I wish I could go out to the corral and see her there. But swapping her for Bandit may have saved both of our lives. It certainly has allowed me to learn to trust a horse, to relax on one, and to start doing things I had given up hope of doing.

PS - last I heard, Mia still was doing the odd monthly spin. None of them know why she does it either, and her new owners are lifelong riders. But she is fast, competitive, and makes a decent brood mare...

PSS - I still see no correlation in my own life to "tense rider makes tense horse". I've had horses explode when I was relaxed as could be, and horses be super calm when I was twisted up inside. Maybe I rode so defensively for so long that I desensitized my horses to a tense rider? Pushing a tense horse into a situation tends to make them more tense, and if they feel trapped they will explode, but I can have knots tied inside me and have my horse smoking a joint, or be about to melt with relaxation and have my horse spook.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

One more mention - there is absolutely no shame in getting off a horse to handle a sticky situation. Getting off does not mean one is a bad rider or a failure either. 

Everyone has times they need to get off the horse. Sometimes the rider can work the horse thru the situation, as has been mentioned above, but sometimes one has to get off. 

That's the whole reason groundwork got so popular, because riding out a bucking, spooking horse turned out to not be the best way to train! 

A challenging horse can be the best teacher there is, and only experience can teach a rider how to handle different situations. Sometimes I ride it out, sometimes I get off, sometimes I put us closer to the scary thing, sometimes farther away. 

Sometimes I make the right decision, sometimes I don't! Its all a learning process. My horse spooks on the trail when I can't see a thing! One time he wouldn't pass a tree stump. Have no idea why. Took me ten minutes before he would walk past it, mounted. I didn't get off that time because there was nothing nearby that I could use to remount, and unfortunately due to a bum knee I have a hard time mounting from the ground anymore. 

Honestly, had I been riding with someone else, or seen a place to remount, I would have just got off and led him past. Somethings just aren't worth the hassle, and I was really tired. 

He is terrified of overturned trees, the kind where the bottom of the tree is exposed. We have progressed, over the years, from me having to dismount, to turning his head away from the object and walking by, to now just a "quit that, it is nothing" and he'll walk past but he is ready still to jump. I can feel it. He may never get over being terrified, but he trusts me when I tell him it is ok. That takes time.


----------



## buggy (Aug 8, 2016)

I agree with all of the above. I have had a horse that was good sometimes and wreck others, it got to the point that I would get knots in my stomach every time I rode. That is no fun. 

My advice is this:
Horses are too expensive of an animal to keep if you don't enjoy the one you have. Find Kodak a home more suited to deal with her unpredictability, and find yourself a horse that you will enjoy all of the time and not have to worry about tossing you into the bushes.


----------



## planta (Aug 23, 2015)

I have to make same decision with Babe today, so I feel for you.
Babe also made me to have brain concussion when in the prairie, out of nowhere, she made me a rodeo, with sudden spins and rearing up. I had a brain trauma and twisted arm in an elbow, had to walk home few miles. Horse was nowhere to be found, no any driver stopped for me , although I blacked out next to a road. It took three months to fully recover of dizziness, headaches, nausea and amnesia. I still have episodes of sudden amnesia and disorientation, even was over a year ago.

I was trying even more hard after. But my horse has moments when something clicks in her brain and then is just bolting. When I try to stop her, she doesn't react on any voice or rein commands, I have to use fence to park her in, because making small and large circles, figures eights, serpentines doesn't slow her. She takes it like a barrel racer, full speed, turning on a dime.

Today, after she almost killed me again two days ago, we take her to experienced trainer to evaluate her, if she is trainable or I have to sell her. And it willl be very, very hard on me since she is my first horse, my love and we have real bond...on the ground.

I am with you.


----------



## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> I realize there will never be a guarantee, but I'm too old to be wondering if the next incident will put me in the hospital.


I am very sorry to hear about this latest mishap.

I don't mean to frighten you, but your next incident could do worse than putting you in the hospital. 

Ten years ago an area teacher was mounting a horse when it took off running. She stayed on for about 50 yards. When her family caught up with her she was unconscious and rescue workers were unable to revive her. Her obituary said "training and riding horses was a passion for Kay."

Three years ago a woman was riding with two friends along a road when a horse in an adjacent pasture somehow caused all three horses to spook, all three horses ran out of control, and all three riders fell. Two had minor injuries, the other was flown to a nearby hospital and died two days later from head injuries. On her profile she listed horse training as an activity she loved.

Just this March a woman in our area "was riding with a friend in the woods near her home when her horse suddenly spooked. Laney suffered a fatal head injury after falling from the horse Wednesday afternoon."

I went back and read through some of your other posts about Kodak. In one you mentioned that part of your reluctance to sell her is that your daughter cries at the thought. I expect she would cry much longer if she lost her mother.

I have mentioned that my big guy is a spooky horse. He once went through a fence just because my neighbor turned on his Christmas lights. It took me about five years to get to the place where I could have confidence that I could control his spooks, and another five years to gain his confidence to the point where he lets me decide what is frightening. Kodak could come around, but do you really want to spend the next ten years on a project that could kill you? Do you really want to put that much effort into this mare when you and your kids could be enjoying riding together on a quieter horse?


----------



## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

So sorry to hear about your accident & hope you heal quickly.


----------



## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

sorry to hear about your spill, not a good thing to happen to you.

I have to say that right from your first posts about Kodak and her spooking I thought that this might be an overly reactive horse. No fault of yours but some horses are just like that and it's how they are made and a lot can be done to correct it but the fact remains that in some stressful situations they revert back to their original behaviour. I have had horses like this and it's a case of deciding whether to keep working with the horse,understanding their basic nature or finding another home for them, often a different person experienced in working with this type of horse.
This could be a good thing for Kodak to have a different rider and for you, you have to decide if you want a solid, dependable, less spooky horse that you can ride and enjoy. 
Your goals are to go out for easy relaxed rides, maybe stopping to paint or just enjoy the scenery and I'm not sure Kodak is the right horse for this.

I'm sorry that you got dumped and also very thankful that Harley was a star and didn't do anything stupid for your daughter to handle.
The safety of your daughter should be taken into consideration as you make your decisions as sometimes one horse freaking out can set the other one off. Kudos to Harley.

When I was younger I didn't think this way, but now I know what my decision would be if I wanted a horse that I could ride out on and relax and be able to trust it and enjoy the ride.

P.S If you meet your son again out on the trail just get him to say something to you, even if it is "Hello stupid horse", which is what my daughter would say as this seems to quickly put them at ease as they realize it's just a person out there.

All the best and a speedy recovery.


----------



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hope you are OK, and hope you are going to get medical attention right away.

The hip, hands, and other bumps and bruises will take time to not be bothersome; let alone the concussion.

Take care of yourself,
Ann


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I'm so sorry to hear about your fall, Acadian. 

It's really hard to suggest what to do; you do post a lot, but there are still so many nuances about your and Kodak's relationship that HFers are simply not privy to.

I read a horse blog (which I have a love-hate relationship with, but that's another story) that references a "Trust Fund." (That's not what they call it, I don't think, and I don't believe the blogger was the one who came up with the idea, but I digress...) You've probably heard of it. It implies that all relationships (between humans and other humans, between humans and people, etcetc) rely on this 'account' to be successful. Positive experiences "deposit" into this fund, and negative ones "withdraw." For example, when Kodak successfully responds to your cue, a small deposit is made. Each time you make a decision for Kodak that she perceives as safe, a deposit is made. 
Each time she thinks you've lead her astray, a withdraw is made; each time she throws you or acts spooky, a withdraw is made.

So you have to ask yourself, is your "trust account" with Kodak still in the positive? 
It sounds like you're in a little over your head. I know you work with a trainer, but spookiness isn't always something that can be trained out of a horse. It's worth a shot, if you're willing to send her somewhere for 30/60/90 days.

Personally, I think your best option is to sell and find something you enjoy without all these caveats.


----------



## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I love your post @*Zexious* - way more articulate than I could be. 

I really empathize with you @Acadian. I think if we went riding together, we'd probably find that we both want a lot of the same things out of the experience. I've been having some issues with my horse balking/refusing, and it's unsettling. I've had a hard fall from her when she tripped back in the winter, because she isn't the greatest at paying attention to where her feet go. So I totally understand the slow, almost subconscious, voice quietly asking the "what if" questions in the background.

I think what I perceive as different about my situation is that deep down my mare is a steady-eddy and her spooks are spooks in place which she immediately de-escalates on her own. I may have my own confidence issues that are based in my head, but at the end of the day I *trust her*- I think that's where Zexious' post feels so right to me. And I'll echo numerous other people here- the fact that you can't just trust Kodak is completely rationale and not a fault of either of you. Just makes it a bad match right now.

Good luck moving forward.

Oh, and please do see the doctor!


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

greentree said:


> I am sorry to hear about your situation, but I agree with AnitaAnne.
> 
> It is right here: "I yelled at him to let him know we were there. I think he had our dogs with him - they're dachshunds so very low to the ground...."
> 
> ...



This is so, so true. The most miniscule tense up is felt by the horse, so she reacted because you reacted. I experience this now and then myself and am training myself to relax all muscles and distract/redirect before it degenerates into a bolt (or whatever out of control action it can). The times I have not seen it coming and get a spook, my mare stops the spook really quickly because I don't even have time to react. If I see something that makes me a little worried, I know I can cause the spook.


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> One more mention - there is absolutely no shame in getting off a horse to handle a sticky situation. Getting off does not mean one is a bad rider or a failure either.
> 
> Everyone has times they need to get off the horse. Sometimes the rider can work the horse thru the situation, as has been mentioned above, but sometimes one has to get off.
> 
> ...



I think this is worth reading again. In the past I have been shamed by people who didn't think I should have gotten off. But when I got off, I got back on and lived to ride another day. I also worked on the issue from the ground. Only you know if this mare is worth it to you to be putting more time and $$$ into her. Even if you are determined, it could take a greener, less experienced and less confident rider literally years to work on this. Every time you get hurt, you may be more cautious, tense and nervous when you ride again which could feed the issue.


----------



## planta (Aug 23, 2015)

I have a good news. Old cowboy was real horse whisperer. It took him over two hours to make a bond with Babe and she idd it. I worked with two other trainers, I tried by myself too, but Babe didn't even try to make that effort.
This trainer said Babe has huge trust issue, and it will take him 6 days a week for 60 days. We paid 1400$, including later my riding lessons on her. I this is a steal, especially that my husband's friend bought recently quarter horse that bolted her out. She sent the horse to a famous trainer in Canyon, TX, paid about 1000$ a month for 4 months...and horse after comign home bolted her out twice. She sold this horse.

But what I want to say; there is a hope! I just found someone who was very gentle and very knowledgeable what to do and how to read her. I won't have to sell her. 
Maybe you can find a good trainer too? Good not always means expensive and expensive not always is good...

But I am crying because she will be there. Although I will visit her every day, I will miss her so bad...


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I, personally, would sell her and buy something I could enjoy. There are way too many trust worthy, nice horses (not saying she's not nice just not for you) who are trained well and solid as rocks to and looking for homes to continually deal with this as a recreational rider. I qualified that as recreational rider because you're not a trainer, it's not your living to make this horse a good steady, solid citizen. You're a weekend rider and at your level of skill and confidence you need a 'beginner safe' horse. That is not Kodak.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree on what many have said here.
Sell her, and buy one more suitable for you, and geared to where you now are at.
I also agree that things could have been defused to a great amount, if you had become proactive, soon as she went into possible flight mode.
Getting off would have been one solution, if you think you could not have made her hold things together, using some body control exercises, getting her mind back on you Taking her head away, in a set release, set release, if needed, while bending her body, makes it very difficult to try and bolt, and kinda tells the horse, 'hey, I'm still here, taking care of us'
As I have often said, trust is great, and on many horses, once that bond becomes very strong, you seldom if ever need to resort to body control, BUT, it is still great to have, as another tool, should you ever need it.
Maybe you accidently, sort of , used the one rein, but not correctly or effectively, and she could possibly just switched directions, to get back to Harley
At any rate, there is no shame in 'divorcing your horse., where both of you can find more suitable partners


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

I am in agreement with the poster (was it jaydee maybe?) that said Kodak is not the horse for you now. You bought a horse to have fun on and you are not having fun if you are scared or nervous or getting hurt. My advice is to sell Kodak to an appropriate home and find a safe, fun, and reliable horse for yourself.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm sorry you had this scary experience. but, glad you were not seriously hurt, though a concussion is not a picnic, either.

I have to second or third or fourth the opinions to change to a more suitable horse.
When I used to ride a spooky mare, I never knew how my trail ride would end, and it was a very nerve wracking way to ride. I 'loved' her, but I never fully enjoyed riding her out, not the way I do enjoy riding my steady Eddie now. I'm older now, and older than you, so I really have even less ability to stay on a spinning, bolting horse than you. I get such enjoyment of going out knowing that the likelihood of my guy spinning me off is very, very low. it's really a joy to not have that risk in the back of my mind all the time. I know, never say never . . . but . can I say 99%?


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks everyone. I read every single reply and appreciate all the advice and support. I will call my family dr. tomorrow and make an appointment. I didn't want to go to emergency, because they'd keep me there a day. This is a mild concussion at best. I did take precautions at home, but I agree, the brain is pretty important.

Tonight, Kodak was getting her feet trimmed and went from perfectly relaxed and nearly falling asleep to pulling back hard on the cross-ties and half-rearing in the barn. I thought for sure they would snap, but they didn't. No one was hurt, luckily, but it was a scary moment for myself and the farrier. 

I don't know if I'm causing this, but it does seem to get worse. I'm always very conscious of how sometimes, the way people write posts on a forum like this one, may subconsciously influence the reactions of those reading it, so I always try to write as objectively as possible, and not leave out any facts. I agree that I could have handled the situation differently, but there are a million possible scenarios, and I just don't have the skill and experience to work through each and every one of them. Trust me, I have gone over what happened in my head over and over. I should have dismounted, and was thinking about it, but was also thinking about the safety of my daughter on Harley behind me. I was hoping we could just ride it out and not make a big deal out of it. That didn't work. Again, I do appreciate everyone who suggested what I could have done differently - I don't expect to never experience a spook again, whether I keep or sell Kodak, so this is a learning process. 

I am aware that riding isn't for the faint of heart. I'm aware that there is risk. But I'm also the type of person that isn't keen on taking unnecessary risks. It seems like the most logical thing to do is minimize risk in anything I do in life. Riding Kodak does not minimize risk, it increases it. I also worry about my daughter witnessing this, and having to deal with a situation that a 12 year old shouldn't have to. 

So I haven't made a decision. Partly because thinking about selling her makes me want to cry. And partly because I want to give myself some time to think about it and make a clear, logical decision, not one out of frustration or fear. 

But I talked to the trainer who has been working with us, and she thinks it's time for me to think about it. I'm almost 50. As you all pointed out, I have no ambition of becoming a horse trainer, or anything more than a recreational rider. I want to have a really solid horse I can enjoy on trails with my daughter. Speaking of whom, after this happened, she told me that if I wanted to sell Kodak, she'd be sad, but she'd understand. 

I guess I'm going to slowly start looking at what's out there as a rock solid been there done that horse that would be happy to retire to some light backyard riding. I can't sell Kodak until I find a new friend for Harley because he doesn't do well alone. And I do have enough room for three, though I would prefer not to have to take three horses through the winter. 

I'll keep you all informed. Thanks for your honest opinions. It's such a hard decision.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think it must be about 30% of horse owners have had to change in a horse at one time or another, for one reason or another. Don't be sad. listen to the still small voice that isn't happy with this horse.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

No need to rush, and I feel your pain, and can even relate.
At one time, I got on anything, including young stallions, loved the challenge of riding a difficult horse out, but time and physical facts have changed that
Charlie came into my life, when I was not anywhere near the confident rider I used to be
Age and double knee replacements certainly were a factor, as even my OS said I could ride, just not come off ! Many people my age no longer ride, esp with joint replacements.
Charlie was, and still an be, a very reactive horse, and at one time, I almost was going to give up on her. She is 16.2hh and and has lots of muscle, so could really 'plant me', and in fact, came close to doing so, several times, not all her fault, as she got run into badly in a
warm up ring
Still, she is a half sister to my Einstein, and I saw some of him in her, so I kept her
She Is still not a hrose I would let anyone ride, but now is a wonderful horse for me. Last two shows, she was relaxed, having gotten over that run in finally
She \nailed a tough technical trail pattern and equitation pattern
I took her out to the mountains last week,, for the first time this year, and she was a star. She both led and followed, crossing rivers bravely, ignoring the dogs running in and out of the trees, spooking in place at a grouse that flew up under her nose. I ride her out by her self around home, and where once she would have offered to either try and spin around, buck or bolt, she now comes back to me, and trusts me when I tell her something is okay, like cows running up tot he fence, the noise of a water sprinker, hidden by a hedge, noisy trucks coming up on her, ect, ect
I guess what I am saying, your decision is purely personal, with no right or wrong answer, so do not feel pressured in making any quick decision.
Good luck, and hope the right solution comes to you.


----------



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I believe Kodak is already well over ten years old?

Something I have wondered about is the following. My mare was a terror from green 5 years old to about eleven or twelve. It was a constant battle for many years, but I learned a lot. After those several years, my handling became nigh that of an extremely experienced horse person, and my mare mellowed out. Yes, mellowed! Went from throwing me off in the desert just at the sight of a strange horse, to being a horse I can trust to take care of my beginner husband and is nearly a bombproof horse (didn't freak out over a motorcycle zipping past 5 ft away, and a helicopter landing 50 ft away. She just doesn't freak out).

The thing I've wondered about: if a horse doesn't stop the constant reactive behavior within a year or two after turning ten (in the scenario of good handling), it may just be the way that horse is.

Kodak I think is just a reactive horse, similar to many arabians, thoroughbreds, and other hot bloods.

I remember a while back when I read one of your posts, I was rather alarmed. Whereas Harley used to be the untrustworthy trail horse, now you were writing as if he was your steady eddie trail horse and Kodak, the horse you bought for trail riding, was the dangerous one. That is not a good sign.

I think you've done everything you can at this point, and you should NOT feel guilty, though you should allow yourself to feel sad and grieve, as that is normal. Find Kodak a good home, and get yourself a horse that you can really enjoy.


----------



## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Just a penny - less experienced with horses but moreso with training exotic animals and dogs. In the scenario you described I imagine you unintentionally telegraphed your anxiety/fear in your body and voice. You went from leader to fearful and she reacted appropriately when you think about it like that. I see it ALL THE TIME. With dogs, cats, parrots, ferrets and pigs being the main "offenders" in my working experience. Owner flinches, clench their hands, their voice rises marginally by a decibel or tone, the most SUBTLE of tension and as you know THEY KNOW, even when WE DON'T. Makes it worse when working with such huge beasts. But I'm just preaching to the choir because you sound very experienced and know the above. As a more experienced rider would you say it would benefit Kodak if she wasn't in the lead? In your opinion is she safe enough to be shouting around when away from the paddock? Is she used to that sort of screaming? It takes so much brainpower to constantly be running system checks when we really want to just chill. In regards to your reins that's just you not being prepared and it's a tough pill to swallow that we dun goofed but don't be too harsh - it's hard to react perfectly in a flash. 

Truly, deeply, are you confident on Kodak? Do you have faith that you can get through this? Lastly, do you WANT to get through this? The journey sounds tough and at your age/responsibility you might have other priorities. I once rehabilitated squirrel monkeys and raccoons. Holy sh*t ultimately satisfying crap I endured during these amazing moments in my life. I'm 28 now. Can I be bothered to go through those exact scenarios again? Nope. I'm done, mate. If someone came to me with a skunk or raccoon again I'd be passing them on to a friend. I once cared for an injured caiman in my BEDROOM. Can I do it? Yes. Do I want to? No. I feel this is closer to the answer you might be seeking. Maybe feeling guilty "giving up" when it's not a lack of able but more a lack of want.

Don't feel guilty. You know the stakes. Keep her and be vigilant in her training and your awareness. You shouldn't have to, but might have to be on 100% worst-case-scenario alert at all times for the rest of your relationship. Or pass on her on and getting something that'll help lower your blood pressure overall and keep the hairs on your head. It's really based on where your mind is at. 

Hope you get well without any lasting issues! x


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Kodak is 11 @HorseLuvr. I wish I could believe she will mellow, but the feedback I've gotten from far more experience horse people who have worked with her is that she may always be this way. Good most of the time, but unpredictable on occasion. Which, if you think about it, really means she's unpredictable all the time.

To be clear. I did not immediately gather up my reins. I let my son know we were there and that he shouldn't run. She didn't spook immediately, but then out of the blue, there it was. I sort of fell on her neck as she spun around to run in the other direction. She launched into a full gallop, at which point, I did gather up the reins, the same way I would if I was going from walk to trot because her head is in a higher position. You know the rest. There's lots I could have done differently, yes. But I'm not sure I can keep dealing with this. Her reaction in the cross-ties tonight just seems to reinforce the fact that this is getting worse. That's three incidents of her having "panic attacks" in about two weeks. I am willing to accept that I may be contributing to this, but I don't think it's unreasonable for me to have become worried about when the next meltdown is going to happen. A more experienced rider would undoubtedly have done better than me, I completely agree.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Kodak is 11 @HorseLuvr. I wish I could believe she will mellow, but the feedback I've gotten from far more experience horse people who have worked with her is that she may always be this way. Good most of the time, but unpredictable on occasion. Which, if you think about it, really means she's unpredictable all the time.
> 
> To be clear. I did not immediately gather up my reins. I let my son know we were there and that he shouldn't run. She didn't spook immediately, but then out of the blue, there it was. I sort of fell on her neck as she spun around to run in the other direction. She launched into a full gallop, at which point, I did gather up the reins, the same way I would if I was going from walk to trot because her head is in a higher position. You know the rest. There's lots I could have done differently, yes. But I'm not sure I can keep dealing with this. Her reaction in the cross-ties tonight just seems to reinforce the fact that this is getting worse. That's three incidents of her having "panic attacks" in about two weeks. I am willing to accept that I may be contributing to this, but I don't think it's unreasonable for me to have become worried about when the next meltdown is going to happen. A more experienced rider would undoubtedly have done better than me, I completely agree.


Bottom line is, you are in this for the fun of it. When you have to worry that your horse may go all "Linda Blair in The Exorcist" on you, it's not fun. At that point, you start to find reasons not to handle or ride the horse which then makes you feel bad about not interacting with her and bad/guilty about yourself and ...... it just goes on and on. It's not what any of us signed up for when we got in to this sport, unless of course, you're a trainer and you accept whatever people bring you and you just learn to deal with it. A person who is 50ish, has a whole 'nuther carreer, family, kids, dogs, cats, other horses and just wants a horse they can love on, groom and jump on when they have the time is not equipped to deal with a Diva and shouldn't have to. And add that we don't bounce as good as we used to and when we do get dumped it gives our confidence a beating that is not quickly recovered from and the physical beating parts take longer to heal; it makes the decision to 'downsize' to a Steady Eddy or Edie a whole lot easier.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I doubt this will be helpful in your situation, but when I took on my barely-started filly, the first thing I was taught to do was how to take her head away the second things went south. I was made to practice this over and over and over until it became my response before I even thought about it. 

This helped me shut down any number of incipient wrecks. I think the last one was only a month or so ago, riding alone, when a woodpile that had never been there before jumped out and attacked us. Brooke spun on her heel with the absolute intention of bolting downhill for home. With that gravity working for her, I had a split second of wondering if I was going to go flying. But with muscle memory alone, I grabbed up one rein short and spun her the other way. She never got any momentum going, and -- this is important -- she never has. She has never succeeded in bolting or spinning. She has always been stopped before she really got going, re-organized, and marched onward, so she just expects that. 

Kodak may not be the right horse for you, not because she is a bad horse, but because she got in some practice in panicking long before you owned her, and you don't have the reactions needed to stop her, which at this point I'm sure is a bigger one than I need to stop Brooke.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> I am aware that riding isn't for the faint of heart. I'm aware that there is risk. But I'm also the type of person that isn't keen on taking unnecessary risks. It seems like the most logical thing to do is minimize risk in anything I do in life. Riding Kodak does not minimize risk, it increases it. I also worry about my daughter witnessing this, and having to deal with a situation that a 12 year old shouldn't have to.
> 
> So I haven't made a decision. Partly because thinking about selling her makes me want to cry. And partly because I want to give myself some time to think about it and make a clear, logical decision, not one out of frustration or fear.
> ....
> ...


Take your time to think about it because it is a big decision. And I think it would be very logical to find another horse _first_ before you sell Kodak (if you decide to) so that Harley isn't left without a buddy. 

There are rare occasions where a TRADE happens to work out - so keep that in mind. It might not be common, but it's a possibility. Maybe someone out there has a "boring" horse and they are looking for something with more get-up-and-go ... whereas you are looking for a "boring" horse. 

Keep your chin up and take the time to think about it. .... But I'm kinda guessing you know what your gut is telling you.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Avna said:


> I doubt this will be helpful in your situation, but when I took on my barely-started filly, the first thing I was taught to do was how to take her head away the second things went south. I was made to practice this over and over and over until it became my response before I even thought about it.
> 
> This helped me shut down any number of incipient wrecks. I think the last one was only a month or so ago, riding alone, when a woodpile that had never been there before jumped out and attacked us. Brooke spun on her heel with the absolute intention of bolting downhill for home. With that gravity working for her, I had a split second of wondering if I was going to go flying. But with muscle memory alone, I grabbed up one rein short and spun her the other way. She never got any momentum going, and -- this is important -- she never has. She has never succeeded in bolting or spinning. She has always been stopped before she really got going, re-organized, and marched onward, so she just expects that.
> 
> Kodak may not be the right horse for you, not because she is a bad horse, but because she got in some practice in panicking long before you owned her, and you don't have the reactions needed to stop her, which at this point I'm sure is a bigger one than I need to stop Brooke.


This is very helpful, thanks. I have thought that if I had just gotten her attention back on me in that moment, it might have turned out differently. The problem now, is that trust has been broken so many times. As @Zexious expressed, my "trust fund" in Kodak is low now. I am doubting myself. This leads to second guesses and lack of confidence and follow-through. We are struggling to move forward. She needs a bold, confident rider who can be a leader. I have to be brutally honest with myself. I'm not that rider. 

But should I decide to keep her after all, I will do what you suggest. However, I feel we both need to go back to groundwork for now. Partly because my Dr. may tell me I can't ride for a while, and partly because whether or not I sell her, I have to work with her to get through this, for both our sakes, and I know she's really good on the ground. It's something we can both do confidently, so a good place to start again. And if I sell her, at least she'll have been continuously handled.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> ...That's three incidents of her having "panic attacks" in about two weeks. I am willing to accept that I may be contributing to this, but I don't think it's unreasonable for me to have become worried about when the next meltdown is going to happen...


Seven years with Mia convinced me it really wasn't me. As of last year, she was still the same - at 16, and with lifelong riders.

The hardest Bandit has resisted was with a 6'3" guy who grew up riding horses. He was afraid of...a car parked on the street. Yep! And the lifelong rider hadn't a care in the world, because it never occurred to him a horse COULD spook at...a car parked on the side of the road. Bandit went sideways then bolted across 3 yards, dodging obstacles and emerging on another street.

About an hour later, the rider tried to push Bandit past something on the trail he didn't like, and Bandit bucked hard enough to put the guy on the wrong side of the saddle horn. Then stopped in shock at the guy's weight on his neck!

The RIDER was completely confident. The HORSE was not!

It is true a horse CAN react to their rider's nervousness. I'm certain it happens. But darn it! Horses also react, and react very hard sometimes, without ANY tension in their rider! The last time Bandit threw it in reverse without asking me was because of a tree branch. It hung out partway over the wash, it looked funny, and he threw it in reverse...over a BRANCH! It wasn't me because I wasn't worried in the least. HE WAS.

Some horses just react harder and faster than others, and often for no known reason.

And if the rider makes an honest effort, and sought help, and it still isn't working, it doesn't mean the rider failed the horse. In my HEART, I feel like I failed Mia. In my MIND, I'm certain I did everything I could and still was not safe. I know I'm not God's Gift to Horses! But it isn't always the rider...

Early on, when I first started riding, I watched a woman working HARD on an Arabian mare in an arena. NOTHING was going easy. Afterward, I asked her how long it was before a horse like that would settle. If looks could kill, I'd have died that moment. Fortunately, I'm insensitive enough to have survived the look I got. She replied, "_I've had her since she was a foal. __She's 27 years old. Give me your phone number, and I'll call you when she...SETTLES!_" Insensitive as I am, I still slunk away!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks bsms. Indeed, she has spooked in various situations when I was anything but tense. Most of the time, I don't even see the offending object until after the spook. I've learned I cannot ever relax with her, because when I first got her, she spooked badly twice when I was fully relaxed. Once, we were actually even standing still and watching my daughter on Harley in the riding ring! Her instructor made the mistake of picking up a jump standard and Kodak flipped out. 

But that was early on. I thought it would get better. I worked really hard to improve my riding, and to help her get through this. These latest incidents just make me feel like it will never actually get better. At least not with me. Perhaps with a different rider. 

I hate the idea of giving up. I'm not that person. I've never given up a single animal in my life. I was the kid who brought home the injured bird, mouse, cat. The one who adopts rescue dogs, who does not blame the animal. But I feel like maybe Kodak and I just aren't a good match.


----------



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Well, you might call me experienced, I have been paid to work with problem horses before. She doesn't sound like a horse that I would personally want to keep.

In fact, I wonder if she doesn't have something physically wrong that is affecting her brain? From your recent posts, she seems to have gone from getting better to suddenly taking a drastic and quick turn for the worse. I find that very odd. Could it be something seasonal? Is this your first or second summer with her? Something in the pasture she's eating that causes her to be more reactive?

Regardless of all of it, if you decide to keep her, I am sure there will be complications and trials in one way or another. The most logical thing to do would be to sell/rehome her and find a laid back horse you can enjoy. However, is that what you really want to do? Are you at the end of your rope, or not ready to let go yet?


----------



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

bsms said:


> Early on, when I first started riding, I watched a woman working HARD on an Arabian mare in an arena. NOTHING was going easy. Afterward, I asked her how long it was before a horse like that would settle. If looks could kill, I'd have died that moment. Fortunately, I'm insensitive enough to have survived the look I got. She replied, "_I've had her since she was a foal. __She's 27 years old. Give me your phone number, and I'll call you when she...SETTLES!_" Insensitive as I am, I still slunk away!


:rofl:

Arabs! They don't get the reputation for nothing.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree that a horse can certainly react, even with a confident rider, but I also believe there is a difference in just riding by the 'seat of your pants', confident you can stick with a horse, no matter what he does, and having some basic skills on both you and your horse, so that as Avna mentioned, you can take that head away, do other exercises that make it both difficult for a horse to 'engage his rear, and also help get his mind back on you.

That confident rider on Bandit, relied on his own weight and experience, versus putting some body control on Bandit, as there is no way he should have bolted across several streets, before that rider got some 'control'

Yes, things happen suddenly, as that incident in the warm up ring-zero warning'
I was loping Charlie in a crowded warm up, when she was still fairly green
The horse ahead of me, suddenly went from a lope to balk, and ran backwards, tearing out his false tail. I has simply no time to try and get out of his way, thus he slammed into Charlie's left rear, while his rider accidentally hooked Charlie with her spur, enough to draw blood.
Charlie spun a 1/4 turn, then took three huge bucking leaps. A fourth leap, and I doubt that I would have made that 8 second ride! I got her head checked around, and with aloud whoa, she clicked in, back to me, and stopped.
If I think a horse is concerned about something ahead, esp if it is coming towards them,first thing I do, is ask for that face and poll, and but some bend in that body. 
Horses are way bigger then us, and we will never win a straight out pulling match, so you have to use some mechanical advantage, or at least have them in place for 'just in case'
The more a horse learns that they can bolt or spin, after a spook, the more ingrained that response becomes, and the harder to fix, versus shuting them down when they first try to do so, so that they never are likely to go there in the future, or at least except in an extreme case, as 'never say never!'
Does not matter if the horse has learned to halter pull, when panicked, or to bolt, once they become successful in it a few times, it becomes a de fault.
You then either live with it, work around it, hope time and trust will cure it, or, you try to make sure that the horse is never successful in doing so over and over again, and that trying to follow a spook with a bolt or buck, has consequences.
I guess you will need to decide which path to follow


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> <snip>
> I hate the idea of giving up. I'm not that person. I've never given up a single animal in my life. I was the kid who brought home the injured bird, mouse, cat. The one who adopts rescue dogs, who does not blame the animal. But I feel like maybe Kodak and I just aren't a good match.


I used to be the person who never gave up on an animal. But then I learned something valuable: that animal you don't click with, or is such a burden for you, might be perfect for someone else. I had that experience a number of times before I really believed it.

The first was a corgi whose life was made miserable by my older dog when my daughter was born and I didn't have time for either dog. He would barely let her in the house. I finally gave her to my sister on trial -- they loved her and cherished her for the rest of her life. 

The second was another corgi whom I 'rescued' from a show breeder -- he hated showing so much that even though he was beautiful he never won, so he languished in a kennel. Turned out he was not a country dog (could not be broken of killing my hens), nor did he have much loyalty to us, as he was raised in a kennel and never had had a real master. He would dig under the fence and run away to have adventures every chance he got. Only dog I've ever owned who didn't want to stay home. So I rehomed him to a suburban family with children and a dog-proof fence, and they adored him. 

And there was that puppy I drove all the way to British Columbia for who after two weeks still was afraid of my husband and daughter. I sent her back. She was very happy to be home, where she remained. 

I started seeing a pattern! When things don't click, don't hang on miserably because "you aren't that kind of a person who just dumps animals". Look for the right solution for that animal. It's out there, and it may very well mean parting company. Rehoming is not the same as abandonment, is not the same as passing on your problems. You just aren't the right fit. Her right fit is out there, and so is yours.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

horseluvr2524 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Arabs! They don't get the reputation for nothing.



Yes, Arabs are sensitive, but I also happen to know that many people who have Arabians, esp show people, enable those hroses.
Ever see an Arabian halter class, or what goes on behind the scenes., so that horse comes in all animated? it is not unheard of, for them to have been 'warmed up'for that halter class with a whip
I have ridden with Arabians who truly deserved the term , airheads', but also with Arabians who were exceptional sensible trail hroses
The biggest factor, aside from bloodlines, was the rider, and how that horse was ridden.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

My first and second horses were Arabian geldings. Wonderful horses. I never had any lessons and I took those horses and rode them all over the mountain preserves in Phoenix. Very sensible, good trail horses. The first one was actually very lazy. The second one was more high strung, but not spooky, just lots and lots of energy. I will always think kindly of Arabians. They took good care of me. :smile:

Acadianartist, just out of curiosity, were you wearing a helmet? Not that you can't get a concussion with a helmet, but I'm just curious. Because if you were wearing a helmet and got a concussion, that was a pretty hard fall! 

You can definitely get a concussion with a helmet, look at all that's been going on with the NFL lately. But I do think having something on your head to absorb impact helps.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> The biggest factor, aside from bloodlines, was the rider, and how that horse was ridden.


Yep, and if you expect a 'psycho, schitzo arab', you'll likely get one!

My first horse was dumped on me for a time, owner went AWOL. I wasn't very experienced at riding, let alone anything else. Being a young teen, didn't realise that tho - thought I was ace!  Didn't even recognise he was a pure arab, let alone have any expectations of the breed. Didn't even know he was palomino to start with because he was dumped on us in winter when he was white & fluffy! I rode him bareback with my donkey's bridle. We went all over together. Living in suburbia, most of it was along busy roads, beside train tracks, on bike paths. I wasn't a great rider by any stretch, but he was pretty unflappable... until he got to a point in the ride where he decided it was 'home time' & would calmly rear & spin(!) Bareback me would succumb to his training of me:mrgreen: & head for home! 

Years later, and much more experienced, I heard he was for sale & had a job by then, so had to have him. His owner asked me why I wanted her 'psycho, schitzo' beast and warned me he was very unpredictable & frightened of his own shadow, that I had to be very careful where I rode him, that there was no other horses, people, bikes, traffic within cooee...

He was indeed like that for a couple of friends I put on him - learned not to put inept people aboard - but he was reliably a calm, sensible guy for me - albeit never wanted to go slow anywhere, but that might have had something to do with me being a young hoon! On the first couple of rides after I bought him, he did try the rear & spin thing on me(he wasn't stoopid!) and looked rather put out that I only laughed at him & turned him around again. He never did that again after the first tries didn't work.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...That confident rider on Bandit, relied on his own weight and experience, versus putting some body control on Bandit, as there is no way he should have bolted across several streets, before that rider got some 'control'......


The point was that Bandit did NOT spook BECAUSE of his rider. You cannot make a horse confident just by being confident. And in many cases, a reactive horse is...a reactive horse. Not rider created.

As for body control, Smilie, we've argued enough on a hundred threads. Can a rider control a horse's body if the horse is sufficiently scared? My answer is NO. Why? Because nothing the rider does can force the horse to do anything.

If it was a case of "body control", one could send the horse to a pro and BUY body control. Or take lessons to learn to control the horse's body. And all a reactive horse would need would be a "good rider" or training with a "good trainer" to install some "body control".

Bandit was not a fun ride when I got him. But compared to Mia...he was OK. And with a couple years of work, I'm liking what I'm seeing. But his problems were not "body control". He had fine control of his body. He just didn't want to listen to me. He'd listen to me fine - in an arena! So would Mia! But outside? He hadn't been taught to value the human's judgment. If a horse doesn't learn that trust at the start, it can be tough teaching it later on.

Our "Steady Eddie" is 3/4 Arabian. His dam was a very mild mannered purebred Arabian mare. Lilly, a purebred Arabian mare I used to own, was a perfectly good match for my daughter to take lessons on when Lilly was green broke. But it is common for an Arabian to be more reactive than the AVERAGE stock horse. 

Kodak is not an Arabian. I think we can rule out the idea that anyone has been making excuses for Kodak '_...because she's an Arabian_'! Some horses of ANY breed are more reactive than others. And if you have a reactive horse, it can take years to work them to an acceptable level for trail riding - and many people do NOT want to take the risks or spend the years to eventually get an OK horse! 

Some problems cannot be solved by riding them in an arena, nor by sending them to a trainer, nor by taking lessons. *I'm not convinced that every horse HAS the ability to be a decent trail horse*. It might be that Kodak's issues could be worked out. It is also possible that Kodak will never be a relaxing ride. A pro who knows Kodak might be able to make that judgment. I sure cannot!

The lady who worked Mia for 4 months told me she once owned a horse who was like Mia in many ways. She had her from foal until her death at 25. And she said her horse was NEVER an easy ride. The mare was her favorite horse, she rode her for over 20 years, but she never became a relaxing ride. Quarter Horse, BTW.

Bandit, OTOH, is becoming a pretty solid horse. But it hasn't been easy, and I accepted risks in getting him where I want him. After two years, we still have a ways to go. I've found it interesting, but I'm not really sure I'd want to go through it again. I would NOT, in any way, blame anyone else for not wanting to go through it! The ONLY reason I've done it is that he is so much easier and saner than Mia.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

well, I do agree with you that while any horse can be trail ridden, not all horses make great trail horses.
I have ridden the entire spectrum, from a hot race bred stud, to reining bred horses and to pleasure bred horses, and will agree that some will always be more of a challenge to ride

However, having ridden enough green horses out over the years, at first, without much in the way of any type of body control on them,and putting some of that on a horse before I rode them out,as I got older, and hopefully smarter, I can absolutely tell you it does make a difference

MY son worked for a working cowhorse trainer one year, and part of his job was to ride those colts out once or twice a week, after a month of training . If you have never ridden a well bred working cowhorse, then reactive and quick and 'feely, certainly applies to them, as you would soon find out!
He is also a very good rider, having started many horses

I also agree that once a horse has a bad start, even if sent to a trainer, he will never have that clean slate for a mind, and, if the owner does not ride him like the trainer, that horse will revert
I saw the original video of kodiak, and the horse had a sort of okay start with the original owner, but I was not impressed with the sale video. It is very likely that she will not change much now, as horses are creatures of habit.

Mia also had past history when you got her-correct?
I already agreed with you, that trust and time can often replace completely ever needing to use some body control, but not always , and often not on horses that have learned they can bolt, buck successfully.They then get better at it. Creatures of habit.
I also never said a confident rider will always in turn make that horse confident, esp a green horse, like Bandit was at the time. But I sure can tell you that lack of confidence in a rider, is picked up by a sensitive horse esp, 100% of the time. 

If you look at what might spook that horse, tense up, fearing the reaction from the horse, the horse just feels that his leader is also concerned, thus that object certainly is something to put distance between it and himself.
The horse does not reason that his leader is tense, fearing his reaction, but rather is reacting to that object same as him-thus, time to get out of Dodge.

I won't ride a horse out now, that does not have some face on him, thus his reaction is to give to a bit, versus tense and lock his jaw, nor one whose body is stiff like a board- I agree, a horse like that, you are riding without true steering or brakes, and will control nothing!

I agree that Kodak might not be the right horse for the OP, and might need to be ridden for the rest of her life, by someone that can shut her down, can make an attempted bolt un comfortable and un successful, as a horse that has her history might continue to be un predictable , for the average person
Also, you would be surprised as to what a change in attitude occurs in many of these horses, ridden for several weeks, hard, either working a grazing lease or on a mountain pack trip. True wet saddle blankets is what is lacking with many of our hroses today

The one foal Charlie had, by transported semen, was a very reactive horse. he practically spooked at his own shadow, was extremely un confident, even though he was raised the same as the rest of our foal crop from that year
A friend bought him, just before I had knee replacements, taking a chance, as he was very well bred, and an exceptional mover
He went to a trainer, and bucked that trainer off several times, spooked at each and everything
She then sent him up north, to a friend who used to ride bulls, and was then getting into working cowhorses. A good,confident rider, who also had good hands, inspite of his rodeo history. He also had a large cattle operation. He rode that horse out all winter, and when he came back, he was a different horse
He is now owned by a family, where several members of that family show him on the App circuit, plus he has seen lots of mountain miles.
He is nothing like the horse he was, but he needed those miles by a good horseman


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> My first and second horses were Arabian geldings. Wonderful horses. I never had any lessons and I took those horses and rode them all over the mountain preserves in Phoenix. Very sensible, good trail horses. The first one was actually very lazy. The second one was more high strung, but not spooky, just lots and lots of energy. I will always think kindly of Arabians. They took good care of me. :smile:
> 
> Acadianartist, just out of curiosity, were you wearing a helmet? Not that you can't get a concussion with a helmet, but I'm just curious. Because if you were wearing a helmet and got a concussion, that was a pretty hard fall!
> 
> You can definitely get a concussion with a helmet, look at all that's been going on with the NFL lately. But I do think having something on your head to absorb impact helps.


Yes! Sorry, I should have mentioned it but to me, it is a given to ride with a helmet. I absolutely WAS wearing a helmet. I know better than to ride without one, on ANY horse, but ESPECIALLY on Kodak. 

So yeah, I think I got a mild concussion even with a helmet. I was almost knocked out. I just remember pushing myself up off the ground and feeling like I couldn't stand up. I laid there for a bit, just trying to snap out of it. I think I fell on my hip and back, then my head came down. Because she was in full gallop when she spun, there was some velocity involved.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Yes, Arabs are sensitive, but I also happen to know that many people who have Arabians, esp show people, enable those hroses.
> Ever see an Arabian halter class, or what goes on behind the scenes., so that horse comes in all animated? it is not unheard of, for them to have been 'warmed up'for that halter class with a whip
> I have ridden with Arabians who truly deserved the term , airheads', but also with Arabians who were exceptional sensible trail hroses
> The biggest factor, aside from bloodlines, was the rider, and how that horse was ridden.


For the record, Harley is an Arab, for those of you who don't know. He is totally trustworthy. Can be hard to ride at the canter or for jumping, because he gets hot, but I can and have put total beginners on him. 

QH are supposed to be mellow and bombproof. Kodak is a QH. There goes breed stereotypes...


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> The one foal Charlie had, by transported semen, was a very reactive horse. he practically spooked at his own shadow, was extremely un confident, even though he was raised the same as the rest of our foal crop from that year
> A friend bought him, just before I had knee replacements, taking a chance, as he was very well bred, and an exceptional mover
> He went to a trainer, and bucked that trainer off several times, spooked at each and everything
> She then sent him up north, to a friend who used to ride bulls, and was then getting into working cowhorses. A good,confident rider, who also had good hands, inspite of his rodeo history. He also had a large cattle operation. He rode that horse out all winter, and when he came back, he was a different horse
> ...


I fully agree with all this. I honestly think Kodak is better when she has a job to do, and is made to work hard pretty much on a daily basis! She does lack confidence, is very insecure and needs a leader. She'd make a great cowhorse, as she has fantastic reflexes. Maybe the laid back lifestyle I am offering her just isn't working for her specific temperament. Harley can go for a week or two without being ridden, and is exactly the same horse. If I do the same with Kodak, we have to start over every time. The reality is that a) I am not the leader she needs and b) I cannot give her hours of daily riding. 

I am looking at really safe horses. I'd rather keep three horses than sell Kodak to someone I don't think will be good to her so there's no rush to sell. And no rush to buy either. I am taking my sweet time! Worse comes to worse, Kodak is a great pasture mate for Harley.


----------



## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Your plan sounds smart to me- maybe Kodak can drag around your sleds in the winter- you can always let go of the rope if she freaks out! :wink:

So here is a horse in Ontario that I've been keeping an eye on. Beautful, Safe Dressage Morgan Mare. I'm not _quite_ ready for another horse right now as I have a few things up in the air in my personal life, but I wonder if she'd be a horse you want to take a look at? I have not seen her in person, but the seller has been very gracious with her time even when I told her I wasn't quite ready to commit yet, and has sent multiple videos and pictures. Maybe worth reaching out?


----------



## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Acadian, another thing I was thinking of this am. Do you remember posting about lunging Kodak? How she got going and you couldn't stop her? A horse that is well handled, even if never on a lunge before should listen to the handler and at least you should be able to stop her when you want, this wasn't the case with Kodak and that gives me a good clear picture of her basic nature.
This is who she is, when in doubt speed up to get away, she's not bad but it's just who she is and that will never change and you are not a professional who could work around this.
I know this has nothing to do with riding her but does give a picture of the type of horse she is.


----------



## planta (Aug 23, 2015)

I am thinking, if you say it is matter of last two weeks, it may be reaction to some pain? Maybe something is wrong with her teeth or back? It would be worth to make full body checkup first, before giving up.
My other mare, Shy, was reacting bad few months after we bought her. She was supposed to be healthy and everything done. Well, her teeth weren't done in few years and she had a canine that she was hitting with a bit I got with her. Also previous owner trimmed her hooves to bare live bottom. My farrier didn't want to touch her feet foe over 6 months. His reaction to farrier may be indicative too, something is wrong and Kodak reacted with panic attack expecting a pain. May be worth to make x ray of hooves.
Did you check for kissing spines? 

Fall will be good time to start looking for another horse. This is the time when many people sell their horses because of cost of feeding thru the winter. I would start to look for something then.

After all health check up, if comes back negative, I would look for a trainer to check with her what is her issue. Like this old cowboy in our case. He said Babe has old trauma, doesn't trust people although she is very bonded with me and very sensitive-that is the problem that she got bolting with me. You need someone training horse like my trainer, for farm work, meaning that he makes them calm and steady in many unexpected situations. Unlike my previous trainer who was working on already well trained animals and was just well...rather keeping them this way that working with hard cases. 
Three horses also is better than two, you always have a backup horse to ride! I have three, although third one, the gelding, we found out was lame and it returning. He will most probably never be ridden again and that/s sad, because is the most level headed from all of them. 
I don'rt remember if I wrote. My 60 days training, 6 days a week will cost us 1400$. You wouldn't buy a good, healthy and well trained for this money, so maybe is worth to look around first, before you decide to sell Kodak? also, then if you will want to sell, you will get better price for better trained horse. Is just economy. Don't try to decide when you are freshy hurt, under emotions, because it's not good time to decide about your and Kodak future. You need to rest, heal and calm down.

It took me three months getting courage after my brain concussion to get back in her saddle. And I was looking for any kind of excuses for myself, from weather to hurting this or that, then I decided...I have to do it or I will never ride her again. And she was very good girl this and next days. Like she knew, I was nervous, scared, she was encouraging me by her very good behavior that is a chance for us both. 
Lots of hugs. It will be fine.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I was going to say the same as Smilie. Miles and miles and miles of wet blankets. Even then that isn't always the cure as some horses need hard work or even just consistent work on a daily basis or even repurposing. I have a few that even after years of retirement I could pull them out of the field and still expect the same horse I retired. Others miss a day and you've missed too much and have to start from scratch it seems. Sounds like Kodak is that kind of horse. Hope you recover quickly.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> QH are supposed to be mellow and bombproof. Kodak is a QH. There goes breed stereotypes...


I told my trainer the other day that I have never been dumped, knocked around and just generally bulled over as much by anything as I have my QHs. Arabs? Not on your life. My fav ride is still my Arab and Arab Xs. They may snort, they may blow, they may prance and spook in place, but I have never been dumped off an Arab the way these little cutters do.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Those miles and miles, of course, are hard to put on, unless you make your living using a horse
Thus, if you are able to find someone to put those miles on, riding grazing leases, etc, that is also someone known to have good hands, you hit the 'jack pot', JMO !
Yes, there are horses you can leave for months, even years, and who then are the same, when you ride them again, except for some rustiness and lack of condition 
I learned to value that trait, and thus when we decided to quit breeding, I just rode those broodmares again, enough to tune them up, and sold them as saddle horses. All had been either shown, trail ridden or both
None offered to buck, and rode like they hardly had missed a day, never mind years
Our stallion had not been ridden, since he was shown as a jr horse. He was then 11. We gelded him, and then I sold him as a non pro horse, with that buyer becoming a close friend, riding trails and showing with me She had to put Cody down this year, at age 24, and wished she could have had the funds to clone him.
The mares that did not produce good minded offspring, were culled, as I had no intention of needing to \re train those young hroses every spring, after a winter of being mainly just turned out, not ridden
Some horses get a mind fix with some regular hard work, which remains, even once they return to a more leisurely life, while others, as said, need that regular work. I have no use for the latter any more. Too old!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

egrogan said:


> Your plan sounds smart to me- maybe Kodak can drag around your sleds in the winter- you can always let go of the rope if she freaks out! :wink:
> 
> So here is a horse in Ontario that I've been keeping an eye on. Beautful, Safe Dressage Morgan Mare. I'm not _quite_ ready for another horse right now as I have a few things up in the air in my personal life, but I wonder if she'd be a horse you want to take a look at? I have not seen her in person, but the seller has been very gracious with her time even when I told her I wasn't quite ready to commit yet, and has sent multiple videos and pictures. Maybe worth reaching out?


Thanks but Ontario is 14 hours drive away


----------



## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Oops, thought that was closer for you-I forget just how far east your province really is!

Oh well, just one more reason I'm going to have to eventually go up there and get her myself :wink:


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There was a time when I found that the miles and miles day in and day out would fix most thing but unless someone has that sort of time its not a viable option
On the whole the amateur rider with limited experience and moving into their senior years wants a horse they can drag out of the field whenever they like and it'll be safe and reliable.
I agree with keeping Kodak until you find something that's right for you and then you can cross the next bridge when you come to it.
There are horses out there that will suit you and you can enjoy owning and riding.
I don't know what Kodak's problem is but horses are odd at times. A friend bought a pony last year from an intermediate rider moving on to horses who'd had him since she was a novice and done pony club and local shows with him but from day one something wasn't right and the pony was being a real pain. The daughter of a mutual friend rode him for her and had the same problems. She sent him to local trainer who's daughter rode him with no trouble at all and he was sold on to a 12 year old boy who's doing great with him. My friend now has a pony that was sold on as he was being too difficult for the person who owned him but previous owners couldn't say anything bad about him so she took a risk and bought him and she's doing great with him


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Acadian....
No comments or thoughts from me on what to do, how to do it...........

My comment is, although hurt, you are very lucky it is not more severe.
I'm very glad for you and for your family of this fact.
With whatever you do, your decisions made...._please be careful._
I hope those bumps, bruises and sore head heal quickly...
Gentle hugs.... 
:runninghorse2:....


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree on taking your time, to find that next horse, or even come to a decision.
If you do go looking for another horse, make a list of what you want, and stick to it.
Try that horse in intended job, at least three times. If you want a solid trail hrose, then try that horse out on an actual trail, both alone and with other horses
Just riding the horse in an arena, or in his comfort zone, is not enough

Just a short story, when we sold our last stallion, after gelding him, and what that person told me afterwards, far as her horse search experience, as she has become a good friend over the last 10 years.

She told me after she bought Cody, how she almost bought a mare before coming to see Cody. She had a rule, that she always followed, before buying a horse, and that was to try that horse at least three times, then if that went well, go for the PPE.

She rode that mare in the arena two times, and was almost committed to buying her, as she went beautifully. Third time, she went on a short trail ride, with the owner and another hrose. As soon as turned that mare back towards home, that mare reared, then bolted.Needless to say, end of sale!
She then told me how she at first was not going to come and see Cody, as he had been a breeding stallion for several years, but then changed her mind.
I in turn confided, after she bought him, that I was riding Cody with 6 broken ribs, not completely healed,and was not even supposed to be on a horse yet
My son could not come home, so there was only me, and even if the excuse was valid, I never gave a reason as to why I could not ride a horse of mine, that was for sale, before the buyer tried the horse.
My friend got on Cody and was sold, just by how smooth he was, including his effortless flying changes.
The ride down the road was left, which she did a few days later, and Cody passed with flying colors. He became her heart horse, that she had to put down this year, at age 24.
I love mares, and there are many great mares out there, but a safer starting criteria for most amateurs, is a gelding, and why most non pros ride geldings at shows. The possible variation with heat cycles is not an issue, That does not mean all geldings are thus easier rides, but that it just eliminates one variable.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

planta said:


> I am thinking, if you say it is matter of last two weeks, it may be reaction to some pain? Maybe something is wrong with her teeth or back? It would be worth to make full body checkup first, before giving up.
> My other mare, Shy, was reacting bad few months after we bought her. She was supposed to be healthy and everything done. Well, her teeth weren't done in few years and she had a canine that she was hitting with a bit I got with her. Also previous owner trimmed her hooves to bare live bottom. My farrier didn't want to touch her feet foe over 6 months. His reaction to farrier may be indicative too, something is wrong and Kodak reacted with panic attack expecting a pain. May be worth to make x ray of hooves.
> Did you check for kissing spines?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice @planta. I really do not think this is health related. It's not like she never spooked until two weeks ago, she was spooky from the day I brought her home (not when I tried her twice, once on a trail, once in a ring, and had my 12 year old daughter ride her as well!). She was great when I tried her, but I found out afterwards that the dealer who sold her to me had lied about her background. Anyway, that's neither here nor there, but it isn't new behavior. She had her teeth floated in June. Had her shots and the usual checkover. She has had massage therapy for a bad neck. I have had a trainer work with her last summer, and again this year. She can spook because I tie her, or when I'm riding so it doesn't just happen with a person on her back. I've seen her spook randomly in the pasture, and take off in a full gallop while my Arab gelding just looks at her with this mildly intrigued look, but mostly ignores it, because it's Kodak. She does this. 

I am not willing to spend more money on her since she came with a hefty price tag. I thought I was paying for a dead broke, bombproof horse. I've worked with a trainer - have made the choice to have the trainer come to us and work with us together rather than send her away, because I realize that she might be great at the trainer's, but go back to her old patterns at home. I need her to be safe here, with me. I am not at all convinced she will ever be completely trustworthy for a rider of my caliber no matter how much training she gets. She doesn't spook all the time, but it is that unknown trigger, which my trainer has called flashbacks similar to PTSD that may always be a potential. She's not dangerous - at least not intentionally, in the sense that she would never kick, bite, rear, trample or otherwise show any kind of aggressive behavior. But she's dangerous for me. Does that make sense? In other words, a better rider could probably tell her to get over it and ride it out. I'm still learning. I really want to be that rider for her, but I'm not. Spending another 1500$ on training just so she can come back to a mediocre middle-aged amateur rider who will inevitably make mistakes doesn't seem to make much sense. And I paid enough for her that I'll never see that money back, so investing more doesn't make sense. A good, solid rider, probably someone with a Western background who wants to work cows, run barrels, or something like that, might think she's awesome. She has great qualities. She has papers and good, solid breeding. She is willing and has a good mind. When she's good, she's an angel. She will go wherever you ask her to on a trail, and never hurries home. Her pace on a trail ride is perfect. Not too slow, not too fast. She has a lot of "try", and is cooperative, but needs someone who can teach her and guide her. I don't have enough experience to be that person. And she's the prettiest little bay mare you ever saw, though I may be a little biased  

I do love her very much. That makes this decision much harder, but I still think we'd both be better off with a different match.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

planta's question about pain got me thinking. Maybe this is a last-ditch attempt to save my relationship with Kodak. Tell me if you think I'm crazy here....

She was spooky when I brought her home in June 2016. We worked with a trainer for 6 weeks, and by fall, she was much better. Winter went by without incident. I tied her solid all the time. Put her on cross-ties. Rode her regularly in snow, on trails and in the paddock. I even let my friend, who is a beginner rider, walk on her a few times last winter and this spring. She never spooked. Sure, things made her startle. She might step sideways. But she didn't explode the way she had in June. 

This spring, we rode a lot. Almost every day. She's been fine until about two weeks ago. I switched her to a bitless bridle. My daughter thinks this might be the problem, but I doubt it. In the last couple of weeks, she has spooked twice while being ridden, and twice while being tied solid, for no apparent reason - or in way that was violently out of proportion with the object of the spook. 

Could it be that her cycle is making her crazy? Is it a coincidence that in the last two years, her only real spooks are in the summer? Again, that doesn't mean she doesn't react to things, just that we are talking the difference between a startle and a few steps sideways and a full-out explosive bolt with a gallop and a spin thrown in for fun.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I feel your pain, but I think you are coming to the right decision.
It is not so much that she spooks, as any horse will, under the right circumstances, but rather that she will up the anti by spinning, bolting, so she does need a rider that can shut her down, when she tries to follow a spook up with any of those vises, and lets her know that spinning, bolting is simply not allowed, with some 'correction'.
that makes that choice, 'uncomfortable, have consequences.
Thus, to me this is not so much a spooking problem, as it is one where the horse decides to take charge after that spook. That is what needs to be dealt with, and you know my stance, far as that halter pulling also- I go for the cure
I don't care about past history, making allowances, living with a particular vise, avoiding an attempt at a cure, because of risk. IO try to minimize any risk in the fix, but for me, that risk is worth it.
I neither want a horse that defaults to halter pulling, nor one that offers to spin and bolt after a spook. I have no problem with a horse doing a genuine fear spook, and will just go with it. I do mind if that horse decides to tune me out, after that spook, thus spin or bolt.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> planta's question about pain got me thinking. Maybe this is a last-ditch attempt to save my relationship with Kodak. Tell me if you think I'm crazy here....
> 
> She was spooky when I brought her home in June 2016. We worked with a trainer for 6 weeks, and by fall, she was much better. Winter went by without incident. I tied her solid all the time. Put her on cross-ties. Rode her regularly in snow, on trails and in the paddock. I even let my friend, who is a beginner rider, walk on her a few times last winter and this spring. She never spooked. Sure, things made her startle. She might step sideways. But she didn't explode the way she had in June.
> 
> ...


Yes, it can certainly be the root of her behavior, and why geldings are the better choice for a non pro.
Some mares can get very reactive when in heat, until, you manner them, same as a stallion, to ignore their hormones when ridden or worked with
It is also why many mares are shown on Regulmate, so that they remain the same, no matter time of month, like a gelding
One of Smilie's full sisters would spook at a butterfly, flying over her, when in heat
I never used hormones on my mares, but they sure were tougher horses to get shown when in heat, until they learned that they had to work, just like a stallion, and ignore those hormonal drives
You could certainly try putting her on Regulmate or Depra Provara (sp ? ) and see if it makes adifference

Here is a good article

Suppressing Estrus in Mares | TheHorse.com


Thus, if you wish to keep Kodak, it certainly would be a cheap method of determining if heat caused her excess spooking, and could be managed, either by hormone suppression, or, as some people do with show mares they never intend to breed-remove those ovaries


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Does she act up if riding in a group? Some horses don't like riding by themselves or leading the ride.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is the correct spelling and info on this drug for heat suppression



http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/Documents/Learnmares20-hormther-medroxyprog-apr09.pdf


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This might be part of your riddle, if Kodak only acts like this in the cycling months


'Unwelcome Behavior
Your mare may hardly change when she comes into heat, or she may behave so erratically that you wish you'd bought a gelding. Most fall somewhere between those extremes. You may notice that she's increasingly distracted. She may develop a passionate attachment to one of her barn buddies and whinny constantly if that horse is out of sight. She may squeal and kick out at the slightest provocation. She may also become sensitive in her back and sides and throw hissy fits when you apply leg pressure. Some mares are unusually spooky as estrus approaches.'


https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/health-archive/managing-mares-in-heat-11641


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

4horses said:


> Does she act up if riding in a group? Some horses don't like riding by themselves or leading the ride.


I've only ever ridden her with my daughter and her gelding, and very seldomly, alone. It didn't seem to make a difference. Her bad spooks were when she was with another horse. In a larger group, she might be better, as she might feel the safety of the herd. But I don't have access to a large group of horses to test out this theory.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes it could be hormones. One of my mares is like 2 different horses when in season. Some rides, she is completely calm, non spooky. Other times she is a nervous wreck. When in season you have to kick, pull the reins and use a whip to get her attention back on you- otherwise she will drag you over to scream at the boys. She will even back up towards the gelding she likes rather than move forward. 

When not in season, she is as calm and level headed as any gelding. Rides on a loose rein, no kicking needed. 

I will say we had one year where she had a really bad spring. This year she was fine. Her spookiness is definitely related to hormones. I even had the vet ultrasound her, as I was convinced our bad spring had something to do with hormone imbalance. I've had her 10 years so I should know what is normal for her. 

She started acting up January through April, with really strong estrus cycles. Was very nervous and spooky, and kicking at other horses with no warning. This year we didn't have any of that. I nearly sold her that one spring, as her behavior was so frustrating. I've had several other mares that I never had issues with to that extent. I treat her like I would a stallion. She is lead mare and it is that strong personality that I love and hate at the same time. 

She does require special handling- I always say she would dump a rider if they don't meet her expectations. She has to have a Saddle that fits perfectly or she lets you know. She doesn't tolerate bouncy riders. She is very particular about what bit she likes. Any deviation makes her very cranky. 

That said, I love her to pieces and she has made me into a much better rider. She is actually my favorite horse to ride, despite all the issues we have had getting her to this point. She is so much fun most of the time. If I want to ride by myself, she is the one I trust the most to not toss me off or act stupid, even if a deer jumps at her head, or a biker pops out behind the bushes. 

This week she knocked the gate off the hinges, went through and pulled down my electric fence, and kicked my gelding (only a minor scratch). That is what I get for not riding her and keeping her busy! If there is trouble, it's going to be her that finds it!


----------



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

You know, while you are currently working on Plan B (finding a horse to replace Kodak and making plans to sell her), it wouldn't hurt to put into effect a Plan A, like trying out one of those supplements for hormonal mares, for example.

I've heard stories of some horses that absolutely could not be ridden when in heat, as they would bronco buck, and many assume it is from weight and pressure on the ovaries. It's not that uncommon for a mare to be extremely difficult when in heat.

If I were you, I would try to find a way to make her more comfortable when in heat. If it doesn't work, at least you tried.

My mom's first fall on her first horse (also a QH mare) came out of nowhere. We were riding down an incline and the mare suddenly bucked, throwing mom, before bolting ahead about thirty feet and then stopping. This happened only 2 or 3 more times after that over a long period of time. Last year, I finally had a light bulb moment and tried an English saddle on her. Discovered that she was much happier and far less irritable, and now she is good as gold for mom. She'd always had a small raised hump on her back, which we assumed was from an old injury as it was there when we got her. Well, the western saddle would ride over that area where the english doesn't. So it was the western saddle (and also an australian) that was causing that behavior, because they both sat on that spot. And the western saddle fit her very well too by everyone's account!


----------



## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Sorry to hear about how things have been going with Kodak. I can sympathize, as I'm also pushing 50 and somewhat of a beginner. Last year my friend's "bomb proof" 20-year-old show horse that CHILDREN show on, bolted on me and threw me onto the frozen ground. I wasn't wearing a helmet, but it didn't matter anyway. I'm pretty sure my head didn't even hit the ground, but the force traveling through my pelvis and up my spine gave me quite the concussion. My pelvis was broken in 5 places. I had to use a wheelchair, then a walker, then crutches. It was 8 months before I got back on a horse. It stinks that when we finally get the time and $ to be able to ride, our bodies don't bounce anymore!!

I'm also holding on to a horse I've been advised that I may not be able to handle. She's only five, and a bit of a handful. She's never spun or bolted on me or hurt me in any way and, when she spooks, she spooks in place. She's recently decided to experiment with rearing, though, so it's back to basics and back to a trainer. How I ended up with her is a long story and I've had her since she was 6 months old and put much more time and $ into her than I ever thought I would. I plan to keep her forever and just hope she'll never end up as a pasture pet. She should be around until I'm around 70 years old and I'm looking forward to growing old with her, one way or another. I have to say that we have many more positive experiences in our "bank" than negative, though. If that is ever not the case then I don't know what I'll do.

I did have to give up on a horse a couple of years ago. I'd heard great things about him and bought him to learn on while my filly was growing up. He was a stubborn old turd who knew every trick in the book and scared the bejeezus out of me. I still cried my eyes out for days when I had to let him go, even though I sold him to a woman who'd owned him before and loves him to pieces. He bucked her off and gave her a concussion shortly after she bought him from me, even though she's much more experienced a rider than I am and she'd had very good experiences with him before she was forced to sell him to the lady I got him from.

I think maybe we're crazy. I used to look around at the other women at the barn where I boarded/hung out. One was only 60 and walked with a cane because of a broken back and partially paralyzed leg (from a horse, of course). One'd had barbed wire go through her eye when she got thrown. That wasn't pretty.

I'll keep riding anyway and try to be as careful and smart as I can about it, but why? I was listening to an audiobook the other day that said that it's difficult for people to ever feel happy and fulfilled unless we're solving problems. We just have to choose what kind of problems we want to solve, and there are a lot of us ladies out here who've chosen horse problems!


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I have always had to work when my hormones were out of whack. I expect my horse to learn to do the same. She was a monster when in heat; now she is not. This may be 1000 miles later though.

I have had two friends get serious injuries by riding reactive horses. 

One was a professional trainer. She was in a coma for a month. Even though she feels that the accident was her fault, she never felt happy on that horse again. She sold him. He went on to have a successful career as a roping horse. She LOVES the horse she bought as a replacement. 

The other guy had a reactive horse and he reacted by being harder on the horse and forcing him to "behave". The horse finally exploded on him. He is still recovering 6 months later. His friend rides the horse with no problem. I think he was too demanding and just a poor match for the horse.

I would get a calmer horse and sell her.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

It is no crime or admission of failure to sell a horse with whom we do not agree on to a new home. The "forever home" syndrome was developed as a method of control by horse rescuers, and then picked up by others as a means of emotional sabotage to ensinuate that anyone who would sell a horse was an inferior home.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Celeste said:


> I have always had to work when my hormones were out of whack. I expect my horse to learn to do the same. She was a monster when in heat; now she is not. This may be 1000 miles later though.
> 
> I have had two friends get serious injuries by riding reactive horses.
> 
> ...


I am also in the camp of expecting mares to behave, in heat or not, same as a stallion, BUT that does not change the fact that mares can be a chellenge when in heat, and take the same degree of training as a stallion does, far as expectations when ridden, while under the influence of hormones

HOWEVER that does not mean the average rider needs to deal with mares in heat, and thus geldings are the choice for most non pros and youth, or those mares are managed with hormonal therapy .
Often people buy mares, because when not in heat, they are non sexual, just like a gelding, and unlike a stud, who is always under the influence of hormones.Then that mare comes in heat, and they are often not experienced in dealing with a horse that is being reproductive driven
Most stallions, on the other hand,are trained by professionals, able to train that horse to ignore his natural reproductive drive ,w hen handled or ridden

I also don;t buy that mare being in pain, while in heat, unless she has cystic ovaries. They are distracted, hyper reactive, because that reproductive drive is very strong, because it is the way species survive, thus frustrated, super reactive mares at times, with that 'jumping out of your skin' feeling
Thus, for the OP, I see no reason she should not try and see if Kodak remains her winter self, when her heat is supressed, and then decide if she wants to manage those heat cycles or sell the horse
I always found that young fillies could be very reactive/difficult when in heat, but with consistent management/training, their heats became almost un noticed as they matured, became better trained
I think it is worth finding out definately, as often mares that act up, are immediately said to be in heat, and geldings that act up, declared proud cut

While both can be true , it is also a fact that often what is missing is wet saddle blankets, so you have to find out in either case, what you are really dealing with


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Here is the correct spelling and info on this drug for heat suppression
> 
> 
> 
> http://csu-cvmbs.colostate.edu/Documents/Learnmares20-hormther-medroxyprog-apr09.pdf


Thanks Smilie. According to this, and the previous article you posted, Depo-Provera has no effect on mares' estrus cycle. However, Regumate apparently does.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I talked to my trainer, and she says she doubts this is hormone-related. She says they start cycling in March/April and end in Sept/Oct. and that's when their cycles tend to be the most severe. It might just be a coincidence that all her spooks happened in the middle of summer. So I don't know... but I may try to see if I can get some Regumate and start giving it to her while I search for a new, calmer horse. As Smilie says, it can't hurt to try.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I am also in the camp of expecting mares to behave, in heat or not, same as a stallion, BUT that does not change the fact that mares can be a chellenge when in heat, and take the same degree of training as a stallion does, far as expectations when ridden, while under the influence of hormones
> 
> HOWEVER that does not mean the average rider needs to deal with mares in heat, and thus geldings are the choice for most non pros and youth, or those mares are managed with hormonal therapy .
> Often people buy mares, because when not in heat, they are non sexual, just like a gelding, and unlike a stud, who is always under the influence of hormones.Then that mare comes in heat, and they are often not experienced in dealing with a horse that is being reproductive driven
> ...


My mare does not act any different when she's in heat other than being something of a fool around geldings (in her free time, not under saddle). Either she's not one of 'those' mares or I never expected her to behave different so she didn't. She is opinionated 100% of the time, though. I like mares. 

My guess is that for Kodak it is not hormones, it is her basic personality and experiences.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Oh, and if it matters, she does exhibit squealing, posturing, tail swishing, squirting, etc. It just confuses Harley of course, LOL


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Had a TB/App mare that was completely insane when in heat. You couldn't even touch her loins with a brush without a major blowup. She had been abused before I bought her, so she had other issues too, but for 5 days every heat cycle, I just left her alone! 

Her heat cycles generally coincided with my show schedule, which really cut down on our progress :frown_color:

My little QH mare is mostly a very good girl but one must be very calm around her (and not be a young male, lol) but when she is in heat she has tossed my daughter a time or two. Usually caused by the saddle being ever so slightly too far back. 

My DD always had me check the placement of her saddle after that last toss right after she claimed she knew how to put on her own saddle! :smile:

Mares are generally (but not always) more "alert" than a gelding, all other things being equal. 

Another thing to keep in mind, some horses just don't like trail rides. Some don't like arenas either.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Why not have Kodak checked when she is most reactive, to see if she is in heat?
I think we are going off topic, when we are talking of individual mares, expectations while in heat, ect.
What matters to the OP, is that some mares do get very reactive when in heat, so having her find out if that is the case with Kodak, makes sense
It has zero to do, how our own individual mares are when in heat, or how we deal with it, if need be.
I can tell you, that I was almost an exception, showing mares at the breed level without using some heat suppressing drug.Some mares never display un wanted behavior, but are simply off in their performance while in heat, so it becomes accepted practice to show them on an actual drug like Regumate, or some herbal prep at least


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks Smilie. According to this, and the previous article you posted, Depo-Provera has no effect on mares' estrus cycle. However, Regumate apparently does.


You know how studies go, LOl. Some studies have shown that Depo provera, given by injection, suppresses heat in mares.
I know people that showed their mares on depo, chosing it over Regulmate, as it does not need to be given daily,so better for that reason, if it works on your mare
results are more variable


'Injectable depo-provera is a more recent product that has, as an advantage, a minimally reactive formulation and a dose interval for most mares of 60 to 90 days. Effectiveness can be variable though.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have horses that would always look at people coming towards them or, men in holes in the road and I would always call out to them to speak out loud, as soon as they did that the horse realised it was a human and continued on its merry way.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Smilie said:


> You know how studies go, LOl. Some studies have shown that Depo provera, given by injection, suppresses heat in mares.
> I know people that showed their mares on depo, chosing it over Regulmate, as it does not need to be given daily,so better for that reason, if it works on your mare
> results are more variable
> 
> ...


I used Depo on one mare who had very painful heats. Since she was never going to be bred the side effect of going sterile didn't matter. Regumate is a known carcinogen, can be absorbed through our skin and can/will/has caused problems for human females who have handled it. It also comes (or it did a few years ago) in an injectable form that can be given every 10 days instead of daily. I wouldn't recommend its use on a daily basis just for heat suppression on anything less than a top performing competition horse just because the side effects on humans can be so bad.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I used Depo on one mare who had very painful heats. Since she was never going to be bred the side effect of going sterile didn't matter. Regumate is a known carcinogen, can be absorbed through our skin and can/will/has caused problems for human females who have handled it. It also comes (or it did a few years ago) in an injectable form that can be given every 10 days instead of daily. I wouldn't recommend its use on a daily basis just for heat suppression on anything less than a top performing competition horse just because the side effects on humans can be so bad.


I've read that too about Regumate and it does concern me a great deal. I had major hormone problems as a teenager, am nearing menopause, and have a teenage daughter who is just starting to get hormonal... the idea of having a hormone in the barn that is so potent frightens me a little. 

All the studies I read last night on Depo said it had no significant impact on the heats of mares. Of course there might be exceptions, but it seems pointless. 

I guess I was just hoping against hope... I even reached out to the one former own Kodak had who treated her well and cares about her. She lives out west, but I had tracked her down when we first got Kodak. She said Kodak came to her with a lot of severe issues (she'd already told me that), but that she'd never spooked bad with her. However, this lady is a trainer. She worked with Kodak for months (she's the one who did the video in the indoor arena) and got her much improved before selling her on. She made no misrepresentations about Kodak, however, and sold her to the dealer who sold her to me with full disclosure about her head-shyness and anxiety. The price difference would make your jaw drop. And of course, the dealer who sold her to me never told me any of this. Lesson learned. I am hoping to get my next horse through word of mouth. I am starting to reach out to all the horse people I know in the community in the hopes that someone will know of a horse that needs to retire to light riding. Maybe even a horse that can pull a sleigh! No rush... it will have to be the right one. 

Honestly, her head-shyness doesn't even bother me. I can deal with a horse I can't tie solid. She stands for washing, brushing, tacking, without being tied solid, so I could live with that. But the severe spooking is a deal breaker. I keep thinking about what would happen if I have much more severe injuries, or worse. What will my family do without a mom? How will my daughter pursue her riding if there's no one here to ride with her, to look after the horses? Will she even want to ride again if she witnesses her mother killed by a horse on what should have been a quiet, pleasant ride around the property? I haven't ridden her yet because of the concussion, but will do some ground work with her just to keep interacting. I might have enough courage to ride her in an enclosed area, but not sure I have the confidence to take her back on that trail. Maybe I could walk her around the trail from the ground. It would be better than avoiding the area altogether right? 

Thanks again for all your support. I really want her to be ok, but am not sure I'll ever trust her to be that horse for me. Maybe she can be for someone else.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> You know how studies go, LOl. Some studies have shown that Depo provera, given by injection, suppresses heat in mares.
> I know people that showed their mares on depo, chosing it over Regulmate, as it does not need to be given daily,so better for that reason, if it works on your mare
> results are more variable
> 
> ...


It might be worth checking with my vet to see if he can give her a shot. It will give me 2-3 months to see how she is while I shop for my next horse. 

P.S. found a lovely Canadian in Maine that appears to be unflappable. However, he is near 17 hands, and massive. He is also expensive (for me, because in US $) and across the border, which makes a trial impractical. If he were closer, I'd consider him despite his massive size (I like them small). But I'll pass on him for now... still, they're out there. I hope.


----------



## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

Wow, that is HUGE for a Canadian. I have a little Canadian filly and she's pretty much pony-sized  I will say that the Canadian breed is outstanding - my filly is only 3 and although she has her moments, she has been super easy to train. 

I would also look into the off-track Stbrds too - my guy is an awesome trail horse...and he was very easy to re-train under saddle (plus they could pull a sleigh too). 

I promise I am not breed biased (ok, maybe a little....LOL).

I think taking Kodak for hand walks down the trail would be a great exercise for you both.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I used Depo on one mare who had very painful heats. Since she was never going to be bred the side effect of going sterile didn't matter. Regumate is a known carcinogen, can be absorbed through our skin and can/will/has caused problems for human females who have handled it. It also comes (or it did a few years ago) in an injectable form that can be given every 10 days instead of daily. I wouldn't recommend its use on a daily basis just for heat suppression on anything less than a top performing competition horse just because the side effects on humans can be so bad.


Yes, and why I never would have used Regumate, esp having had breast cancer. It was another reason I just used raspberries leaves for Charlie, which of course, are high in magnesium, and thus have nothing to do with any hormone suppression.
Mare Magic is mainly red raspberry leaves, and thus abit mis leading in title, LOL, as it is just a general calmer for any sex of horse that are Mag deficient
Cheaper to just buy Raspberry leaves at a health food store!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree on buying privately, over dealers, and even then, you have to be careful.
There are people that just want to sell ahorse, and never worry about repeat customers, reputation, through feed back of past buyers. ect
As a breeder that took pride in selling horses represented exactly as to what they were, horses I raised and trained, versus flipping, that reputation was very important to me, and the friendship of past buyers, who kept in touch, gave feed back on how happy they were with our hroses, was worth just as much as money to me
I still get cards every Christmas, from a buyer from the Czech Republic, who bought two horses form us, purely over the internet
I never got rich raising horses, but I sure got a lot of satisfaction and made many friends, and also had the peace of mind with many of the horses we sold, becoming 'family' to their new owners.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've had to deal with my own fear issues (from Mia) the same way I've had success with horses that are fearful - small steps forward, then repeat a bunch until I build a good foundation of confidence. THEN add another small step forward.

An important mistake I made with Mia was not understanding how deep rooted her fear was. We'd have a couple of successes and then I'd press her for more. But I had only papered over the fear and not rooted it out.

When I got Bandit, I assumed he'd be fearless. After all, he had been in a lot of relay races and been ridden many miles in the open. He HAD "wet saddle blankets" - but he didn't have any wet saddle blankets in the Sonoran Desert. Nor in human neighborhoods with wind chimes, weed whackers and (at Christmas) my neighbor's 6' tall inflatable penguin!

My horses and I all only made lasting progress when we found a level we could handle successfully and stayed at that level for a while.

Another theory is that horses (and I) have a level of inner tension. When Bandit & I started riding, he could go forward and outwardly looked OK, but his inner tension was at 8. Any extra stress that rated a 3 put him over the limit (10) and he'd react violently. I'm sure he trusts me more now, but a lot of it is just he has become less tense inside about neighborhood and has very little internal tension left about the desert. So if he's at 3 going through the desert, and a #3 stress creator appears, he's only at 6. And 6 isn't tough! Heck, if a #5 pops out, he'll only be at 8 - and he can listen fine at 8.

Bandit's previous owner cared deeply for Bandit, but he was the sort who believed in pushing horses past things. As he pointed out, you couldn't win a race if you stopped for 5 minutes to calm a horse past a scary-looking rock! Which I suppose was true, but his previous owner was in his early 20s and a big guy who rode all the time. Maybe HE was willing to deal with the explosions, but my late 50s body wasn't interested.

I had to listen closely to Bandit and convince Bandit he could tell me he was afraid, and that I'd do whatever was needed to make the fear go away. Once he could tell me of his fear, he started being afraid of everything - it seemed. But as we marked things off our list - A isn't really scary, nor B, nor C - then after a month or so he started being afraid less. Over the next year, a LOT less.

Trooper, Cowboy and Lilly never had that inner tension dominating them. They never needed to have someone teach them things were not scary. They get scared sometimes, but they never walked around with an inner tension of 8. Or 9.5 for Mia. So they always could be pushed passed things without exploding and without becoming unable to learn.

When a rider gets hurt, I think we become more like Bandit or Mia. We may still mount up, but if we have a high inner tension and just push past it, it doesn't go away. Not for me, at least. It wasn't just Bandit who needed to slowly release his fears!

All of which is a very long way of saying that if leading her along a trail is what you can do today, lead her along trails. If that is all you can trust her for for 3 months, lead her for 3 months. Ride other horses you CAN trust. If 2 weeks from now you feel like trying Kodak in an arena, that's fine too. Go at YOUR pace, and don't worry if others think it is too slow. If in doubt, go slower. Kodak won't mind.

There is nothing wrong with selling Kodak. There is also nothing wrong with saying, "_If I have another horse I can ride, and it takes me 3 years to get Kodak comfortable, then Kodak and I will spend the next 3 years learning about each other and the world._"

I swapped Mia for Bandit & I don't think that was a mistake for either of us. Bandit was more afraid and nervous when he arrived than Mia was when she left, but the last 2 years have been a good learning experience for me. I'm glad I've had the experience, although I'm also finally enjoying a horse who doesn't have a lot of issues - after nearly 10 years of riding!

But my wife and youngest daughter have NO desire to teach horses. They both want a horse who is fully broke and has no issues. That is OK. We have two horses who are darn solid trail horses.

It is a very individual decision with no right answer.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks Smilie. According to this, and the previous article you posted, Depo-Provera has no effect on mares' estrus cycle. However, Regumate apparently does.


 I do have two mares on Regumate but only because they are such awful flirts when in heat - and I mean awful, its just not fair to the other horses or to them to not do something to remove the problem.
One of also spends all of her time when in heat flinging herself and rubbing herself on anything she can find and making high pitched squealing noises that have caused neighbours, dog walkers and even passing motorists (quiet rural road) to call at the house to see if there's anything wrong!!
As far as behavior goes in terms of handling them and riding them they wouldn't need it as they're as easy to when in heat as when not and neither are ever cranky or reactive when in heat so I wouldn't want to tell you that putting her on Regumate would make the sort of difference you need
Mares don't have the same hormonal cycle that women have and those that behave in the way that she does, if it is related to anything connected to the reproductive organs, are more likely to have an ovarian cyst/tumour
You can have blood test done to check hormone levels


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Just a curiosity as it has been probably 10 years since I considered regumate for one of my draft mares and at that point it was over $160 a month and I would have needed likely 6 months worth. Is it still that expensive? I would have had added costs as I wouldn't touch the it because of side effects for women. It was bad enough handling chemotherapy agents when several had cancer from I assume a new chemical being tested that carried over in the wind when sprayed.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I agree on buying privately, over dealers, and even then, you have to be careful.
> There are people that just want to sell ahorse, and never worry about repeat customers, reputation, through feed back of past buyers. ect
> As a breeder that took pride in selling horses represented exactly as to what they were, horses I raised and trained, versus flipping, that reputation was very important to me, and the friendship of past buyers, who kept in touch, gave feed back on how happy they were with our hroses, was worth just as much as money to me
> I still get cards every Christmas, from a buyer from the Czech Republic, who bought two horses form us, purely over the internet
> I never got rich raising horses, but I sure got a lot of satisfaction and made many friends, and also had the peace of mind with many of the horses we sold, becoming 'family' to their new owners.


I wish you lived near me Smilie. 

Ideally, I will buy a horse through word-of-mouth. Because the horse world is small, and I've made a lot of great friends who have guided me and know I will look after my horses, they can also be a reference for me (my trimmer, vet, trainer, my daughter's coach). I am having a hard time trusting sellers now too. Unless someone will do a trial, I would probably not take a chance on a total stranger.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

bsms said:


> My horses and I all only made lasting progress when we found a level we could handle successfully and stayed at that level for a while.
> 
> Another theory is that horses (and I) have a level of inner tension. When Bandit & I started riding, he could go forward and outwardly looked OK, but his inner tension was at 8. Any extra stress that rated a 3 put him over the limit (10) and he'd react violently. I'm sure he trusts me more now, but a lot of it is just he has become less tense inside about neighborhood and has very little internal tension left about the desert. So if he's at 3 going through the desert, and a #3 stress creator appears, he's only at 6. And 6 isn't tough! Heck, if a #5 pops out, he'll only be at 8 - and he can listen fine at 8.
> 
> ...


This really rang true to me. I have been looking at photos taken of me on Kodak just before our ride when she had the bad spook. She never looks relaxed. In each photo, she looks tense, fidgety. She's swishing away flies, she's worried. And of course, so do I. Naturally, there is tension when I ride Kodak, because I have to be prepared for anything. To say I should just relax is not realistic for a rider of my caliber. And now... I don't think I could ever relax on her again. Maybe I'll ride Harley for a while - my daughter's already offered to share him. Look at him in this photo. He's alert, interested, but has all four feet planted and is not going anywhere. He's solid. Kodak never really is. In the photo where we're heading towards the trail, she has her head sticking out and is on high alert. 

Thanks for your suggestions of just walking her down the trail if I need to. I guess I need to feel I'm not a total failure. But I'm also honest enough with myself to realize that I need a horse that will re-build my confidence. That means that if I breathe a little faster (I sing to avoid that, but still, sometimes it may happen without me realizing), the horse needs to be ok with it. Harley is, so I know there are horses like that. 

Here are the photos of us on the horses before we went into the woods on the trail ride.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am helping a friend who is horse shopping. it's incredibly hard! So, while many of members can say, "oh, just go find a better suited horse" (and I am one of those saying that), it's often easier said than done. 

that doesn't mean it still isn't a good idea, though. But, I can commiserate with how hard it is, especially if you don't have a knowledgeable person to accompany you.

oh, and one thing I noticed from the photos of you on Kodak . . . please do not take this wrong.
The manner that you are seated on her DOES indicate that you are tense and worried. you are tipped forward onto your 'fork'. This position is a 'weak' position and can definitely contribute to being unhorsed a bit more easily than if you more securely seated. Even in the photo where you are going down a slight decline, your pelvis is rocked forward putting you onto your fork..

what I mean is that you are rocked forward onto your pubic bone more than you should be. that means that when/if the hrose stops suddenly, as they do before they do the spinneroo, you will be unable to control your body from tipping well forward, and thus being likely to be spun off the neck/shoulder.

I only mention this so that next time you ride, experiment with how your pelvis sits in the saddle, trying both rocking forward and back. while you want your legs under you , you don't achieve that by rocking forwad onto the pubic bone.

now, I do hope I have neither offended you nor derailed your thread. I jsut have never seen a photo of you in the saddle before, and this position stood out to me.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Yes, and why I never would have used Regumate, esp having had breast cancer. It was another reason I just used raspberries leaves for Charlie, which of course, are high in magnesium, and thus have nothing to do with any hormone suppression.
> Mare Magic is mainly red raspberry leaves, and thus abit mis leading in title, LOL, as it is just a general calmer for any sex of horse that are Mag deficient
> Cheaper to just buy Raspberry leaves at a health food store!


I ordered Mare Magic (rasberry leaves) weeks ago, but it never came. Deliveries are also hit and miss out here. 

She's on magnesium. Has also been on a variety of calming supplements with no apparent effect. 

Never thought of the cancer risk with Regumate. That would seal the deal for me. My mother had breast cancer. Just not worth the risk.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

My daughter's coach has offered to take Kodak for a week and ride her. Harley is going to a riding camp, so they can go together. It will be awfully lonely for me to go a week without my horses, but I will go see them every day and do some of the care myself when i go pick up my daughter at the end of each day. Maybe I can clean out the barn floor of my own barn and pressure wash the stalls while they are away. 

She's aware of everything Kodak is doing. We've had conversations about Kodak before, and she even rode her when I first bought her. I'm thinking that putting someone with lots of experience on Kodak might help us figure out what she needs. Maybe this coach can help us rehome her, and help me find a better horse. I told her that even if she behaves, I may never be able to trust her again and I just don't feel I have the skills for a horse like her. She understands that. I'll let you all know how it goes.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> I am helping a friend who is horse shopping. it's incredibly hard! So, while many of members can say, "oh, just go find a better suited horse" (and I am one of those saying that), it's often easier said than done.
> 
> that doesn't mean it still isn't a good idea, though. But, I can commiserate with how hard it is, especially if you don't have a knowledgeable person to accompany you.
> 
> ...


I noticed it too. So no, you haven't offended me. I was expecting everyone to remark on how tense I look. That's because I AM. Not always. I have photos of me not looking tense on her. And I do make a conscious effort to sit deep and back. 

But see, I am tense because Kodak has been crazy lately. And in fact, she was never rock solid, but she had bouts where she was better so I relaxed a little more. And I have been honest about my level of riding. I am still learning. I'll never be a competitive rider. I don't want to be, nor do I want to become a horse trainer. I just want to have a nice, relaxing trail ride. I get that riding is hard. That's why I took lessons, hired a trainer, rode every day. But at my age, it's unlikely I can become the rider Kodak needs overnight. I'm tense because I know all this is true. I'm not naturally a nervous person. I'm pretty confident, and very calm. It's not my nature to be anxious around a horse. I've become anxious around Kodak because of my experiences with her. Therefore it seems to me that this relationship is no longer benefitting either one of us. 

I will say that I believe I have made great progress on her head-shyness. She does trust me around her head now, and I trust her on the ground because she has great manners. I just make sure I'm not on her flight path so if something spooks her, she is going away from me.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Here is a photo in which - in my mind - we are both relaxed. I had just switched to a bitless bridle and my trainer was helping me work out full contact. This was a good day. However, a few minutes later, bicycles drove by and she spooked pretty badly, only we were in the paddock, and I was able to stay on since she had nowhere to go.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> Just a curiosity as it has been probably 10 years since I considered regumate for one of my draft mares and at that point it was over $160 a month and I would have needed likely 6 months worth. Is it still that expensive? I would have had added costs as I wouldn't touch the it because of side effects for women. It was bad enough handling chemotherapy agents when several had cancer from I assume a new chemical being tested that carried over in the wind when sprayed.


Last time I heard of someone using it, they were saying it cost them close to $10/day through their vet. Last time I bought a bottle it was about $220 for the bottle, vet gave me an RX for it. It's been several years though.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Thanks!


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Maybe I am totally off base, which wouldn't be the first or last time, but in those pictures she looks 'off' or in pain possibly. She is tight in the jaw, her nostril aren't Open but kind of pinched looking, eyes look half mast, ears back, and they way she is standing in the back with her legs close together. Then look at Harley; relaxed jaw, eyes open and alert, stance in the back is open.

I have skimmed through this thread, so may have missed it, but has she been checked for ulcers fore and hind? Bad back? Stifles? Sore anywhere in the back half?

She just does not look happy in those photos. I do not see high alert as much as discontentment.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I agree^^^ not a happy looking horse.... on those bitless bridles, I think the horses look really uncomfortable with much contact at all....think of someone having a constant squeeze on you.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Smilie said:


> I agree on buying privately, over dealers, and even then, you have to be careful.
> There are people that just want to sell ahorse, and never worry about repeat customers, reputation, through feed back of past buyers. ect
> As a breeder that took pride in selling horses represented exactly as to what they were, horses I raised and trained, versus flipping, that reputation was very important to me, and the friendship of past buyers, who kept in touch, gave feed back on how happy they were with our hroses, was worth just as much as money to me
> I still get cards every Christmas, from a buyer from the Czech Republic, who bought two horses form us, purely over the internet
> I never got rich raising horses, but I sure got a lot of satisfaction and made many friends, and also had the peace of mind with many of the horses we sold, becoming 'family' to their new owners.



I think a good dealer is way better than private buying for the average rider, often even for good horses. 

Problem is finding a good dealer! 

What I like about a dealer is that they will usually have several horses for you to try. Secondly, if it doesn't work out they will usually exchange it. 
I guess because the UK is so much smaller, word gets around about dealers and you soon learn the good and the bad. Certainly their reputation goes not by the good horses they sell but the 'bad' ones. Private owners who get a good horse from a dealer will often not tell you, as a potential buyer, where they got theirs from in case you get something better!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> Maybe I am totally off base, which wouldn't be the first or last time, but in those pictures she looks 'off' or in pain possibly. She is tight in the jaw, her nostril aren't Open but kind of pinched looking, eyes look half mast, ears back, and they way she is standing in the back with her legs close together. Then look at Harley; relaxed jaw, eyes open and alert, stance in the back is open.
> 
> I have skimmed through this thread, so may have missed it, but has she been checked for ulcers fore and hind? Bad back? Stifles? Sore anywhere in the back half?
> 
> She just does not look happy in those photos. I do not see high alert as much as discontentment.


I agree. I look at Harley and see a totally different horse. But she was the same in a bit as the bitless, maybe worse. She's unhappy here because the flies are driving her nuts. You know how some horses just don't care about flies, and others go completely crazy? Well, she's the latter. I have seen her jump out of her skin and run at full gallop to the barn while in the pasture because of the flies. I get it. They are maddening. Big moose flies that take a chunk out of your skin. No products keep them away completely. Maybe she's on edge all the time in the summer because of the flies. They are so bad, they drive moose out of the woods and cause car collisions. 

She has not been checked for ulcers. My vet doesn't recommend scoping, because it can be inconclusive and expensive. He would say just go directly to treatment. Treatment is also expensive. Why would she only have symptoms in the summer? Why would she spook on the ground when she is tied? 

It just doesn't add up. She's quite relaxed in the other photo I think, where she's putting her head down and rounding up her back. But a few minutes later, she spooked.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

iT is hard to tell, if even in that bittless bridle, riding in her comfort zone, she is truly relaxed
You are riding her on contact, with a head set, and yes, she is giving, but truly relaxed? Not so sure


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This to me is relaxed.
First picture is me and Carmen, just stopping on aride, reins across her neck, while I fiddle with my camera

Second picture is of me riding Charlie in our outside ring, not knowing we were even being filmed, as hubby had mounted atrail camera at the end of our driveway

Last picture is of my son, riding a three year old filly he started for me, and that I sold last year


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, to get back to pushing horses past things-sorry but the person you bought Bandit from, did it incorrectly, and on a horse too green, from what you posted, as to where he was at, when you bought him.
He did not have the foundation on him, any more then some gymkana horses that are jerked and spurred around barrels or poles, before they ever have that basic softness and guide, that allows them to be ridden with light aids
You do not take a green horse and simply force him by obstacles, and yes, getting the basics on a horse , BEFoRE you ride him out, matters, and has an impact. I can say that , from having ridden many many young horses out over the years, learning, hopefully along the way
You can get a lot of that trust, the confidence of a horse, to obey your aids, in some controlled area, before you ever ride that horse out, so that certain responses become automatic, bEFORE you ever need to apply them in a more stressful situation
That means you do not spur a frightened green horse past stuff, but you have instilled that respect and leadership, so that when asked to go by something, they will respond to those aids, trust your judgement, versus endlessly questioning as to where they will or will not ride. You are either a rider or a passenger, and I prefer to be a rider!
That three year old filly my son is riding in that last picture, is running AQHA bred
By the time he rode her out, she would lead anywhere, because he had both her trust and respect. When a horse has that, they ride relaxed, where asked to go, might hesitate, maybe even spook, but DO NOT offer to spin or bolt, and then they come back to immediately, riding on a loose rein
Yup, my horses were not exposed to mountain bikes coming up on them,fast, until they encountered them,never saw marching bands, lamas, driving horses, until exposed to them at Spruce Meadows, where i gave some demos. They handled it, not because of exposure, but because I had both their respect and trust
Kodak is an older horse with issues and past bad training, JMO. She now need to be shown that she can't bolt or spin after a spook, that her rider is her leader, looking out for the lions, so she does not need to, that going against those aids is uncomfortable
You can lead such a horse forever, but she is not a green horse, never gone anywhere, and worked cattle, far as the ad I first saw, and thus you forget about her past, and deal with the horse you now have, or sell her, JMO


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> iT is hard to tell, if even in that bittless bridle, riding in her comfort zone, she is truly relaxed
> You are riding her on contact, with a head set, and yes, she is giving, but truly relaxed? Not so sure


Good point. I have seen many horses far more relaxed than her. And I have been far more relaxed on a horse than I am on her. 

I suppose what I should have said is that she is far more relaxed in the last picture I posted than she has ever been with me. I have never seen her completely relax. She's just not a relaxed horse. Even when she's standing in her stall dozing, I swear, there is still tension. My equine massage therapist said her neck was a mess of tension. I am very careful about opening the barn door when she's in there, because she has jumped out of her skin if she didn't hear me coming. Once, she tried to jump out of her stall and got her neck in the doorway, but hadn't pulled her butt in completely, so got herself wedged. I stood helpless, watching while she panicked and ripped a bunch of skin off her neck pushing herself through. On the other end of the spectrum, I have seen Harley sleep through a hail storm. Doesn't mean he's dead to the world. As many of you know, he can be hot, and very forward at times, but he can also totally relax. Because he's confident nothing bad is going to happen. I don't know what happened to Kodak, or whether she was just born this way, but it's always there, or at least has been from the day I brought her home. 

Not sure what I can do about that... wet saddle pads would surely help, but I'm not the person to put those miles on her. 

My trainer is working with a horse now that may be perfect. More whoa than go. She wants to put her through her paces a little more, but is giving me first dibs. And even offered to let me keep her at my place for the winter and decide in the spring if I want to keep her. I will go meet her, spend a bit of time with her, ride her out, then see... but she sounds like she's extremely mellow. Doesn't bat an eyelid at anything. I told my trainer I'm not in a hurry, but this might just work out. She knows my skill level, knows what I need and what I don't need, and will let me do a trial for as long as I want. It works for her too, because she's not in a hurry to sell, and this way, she doesn't have to feed this horse through the winter. She's also grown rather fond of her, and won't just sell her to anyone. I have seen pictures and video. She DEFINITELY looks relaxed!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> I think a good dealer is way better than private buying for the average rider, often even for good horses.
> 
> Problem is finding a good dealer!
> 
> ...


"Dealers" here, are people who go out west, buy a bunch of horses, then flip them for profit. Maybe there are some good ones. I haven't met them. I had one pressure me into buying a horse on the spot. They don't know much about the horses they sell, because they just pick them up at auction or wherever. Or they just don't want to disclose information, I don't know. I think there just isn't enough of a horse market around here for proper dealers to make a living, so the ones that are around tend to be shady and dishonest. 

I'd rather buy from someone I know, or through horse friends, because then, there is a reason to be up front. The horse world is very small here, and everyone knows everyone. No one wants to burn bridges.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

All I've ever owned have been horses with issues. I've never owned a 'well trained from the beginning horse', with the exception of Lilly - who was bought at 6 years old, never ridden before, and was trained by the lady who later worked with Mia.

You obviously need SOME cues before riding out, but at some point...yeah, you need to ride them out.

And a horse with internal tension will spook easier and harder, IMHO, than a horse who is internally relaxed. Thus it is easier to deal with a horse who has acquired some confidence. If leading a horse out gets it to relaxing again...it helps.

It will not, by itself, solve all issues. But if a horse has had bad training, there is nothing wrong with starting again at the beginning. It doesn't harm a horse to work "too slow". At some point, it MAY be necessary to teach Kodak that spinning is not productive - using the principle of "_This will profit you. This will profit you not._" And if Acadianartist doesn't enjoy doing that sort of work, then it is 100% OK to sell her. You couldn't pay my wife or youngest daughter to get on a horse who might try spinning and running - what I used to call a "Turn and Burn" - turn around and light the afterburners, to use a little bit of fighter pilot lingo. They would sell a horse like that in a heartbeat.

Me? I guess I got used to it. But I'll admit...today's ride on Bandit may have been our best ever. Not flawless. But the most relaxing ride I've had in the desert in 9+ years, including plenty of cantering and trotting. And I've got to admit...when he slowed from cantering down the trail on a verbal cue, it felt GREAT! I'm not sure I believed I'd ever experience it!

I don't know if Mia and I could ever have gotten there. She was more intense and less sensible than Bandit - which supports selling a horse who can't get you where you want to go. But Bandit and I ARE getting there, and that is a very satisfying feeling - which supports working with a horse. No right answer. Just an individual one.

If Acadianartist decides to sell - well, my wife and daughter would, without hesitation. But if she plans to keep Kodak for a few months while looking for a replacement...then nothing wrong with taking Kodak out for walks on a lead line. It certainly won't make Kodak any worse.

Heck, for the first year I owned Bandit, I was CERTAIN I was going to sell him in spring 2016. Then I slipped it to the fall. A few more rides like today's, though, and I may own him until he dies...


----------



## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> I wish you lived near me Smilie.
> 
> Ideally, I will buy a horse through word-of-mouth. Because the horse world is small, and I've made a lot of great friends who have guided me and know I will look after my horses, they can also be a reference for me (my trimmer, vet, trainer, my daughter's coach). I am having a hard time trusting sellers now too. Unless someone will do a trial, I would probably not take a chance on a total stranger.


There are SO MANY dishonest people in the horse world. I normally wouldn't trust a stranger but when I was looking for a buddy for my mare, I wasn't too worried whether the buddy would be rideable so I went on the equinenow website where people sell horses. I really didn't even hope to find a good horse in my price range, and was basically looking for a pasture pet. I got so lucky finding my gelding there. He's the perfect husband horse. Grandkids can ride him, old people can ride him, yet he's a lot of fun on the trail and still moves fast enough to be fun. 

I came across a TON of scammers while I was looking, though. There were people advertising awesome, youngish, child-safe, well-bred bomb-proof horses at ridiculously low prices and willing to make deals over the phone and they had several different horses for sale, under different seller names. I contacted a couple of them and they used the same exact words to describe both horses. Then there were the people who didn't know anything at all about horses, selling their horses. No thanks! Their idea of "broke" and my idea of "broke" are not usually the same LOL.

This horse's seller was 1) local 2) not priced at a "too good to be true" low price 3) had lots of videos and 4) Insisted on meeting me and told me I would not be going home with the horse after coming to see him, because she wanted us all to have times to think things over. We drove to her house and she asked me a ton of questions and offered to have us come along on some trail rides. Of course I was planning on taking him for a "test ride," but I didn't expect to be carefully watched to make sure I would be good for him. She interviewed five people before deciding who he would go to, and she clearly wasn't out to make money off of him. That's how an honest and very knowledgeable seller acts! They're not selling for a profit, they legitimately have a good horse who needs a home. They go out of their way to make sure it's a good fit because they care about the horse they're selling. PJ is 18 and because of his age I was able to afford him. He's a great horse for going out and having a relaxing, fun time. That comes at a price, though. He's in great health but he's older. He hasn't had any health problems yet but as he gets older I imagine little things will start popping up requiring more healthcare and he'll slow down. We'll keep him until the end, and I imagine that will be pricey. 

You can find a good horse online or from a stranger, you just have to be _very_ careful of who you're dealing with. You have to stay away from the horse dealers, the beginners who let their horses get away with murder and taught them to be disrespecful, etc. and find a nice, quiet yet fun ride. PJ is a quarter horse, by the way. I've only ever ridden quarter horses, except for a little foxtrotter.

Personal contacts are a much better bet, of course. My farrier has this great little Missouri Foxtrotter he let me ride one day when we all went out trail riding. She was a dream to ride, even though she was only 4. I've been begging him to sell her to me, and he's been suggesting he'd really like my mare bred to his friend's stallion (the foxtrotter's dad, who always throws very calm, level-headed foals for great trail riding), and he wants the foal. So . . . hoping for a trade that would be beneficial to both of us, and also to my mare. That poor girl's heat cycles are so bad, and I hear having a foal really helps them calm down a lot....

Anyway. I digress, LOL. Has a stressful day and I'm on my second beer


----------



## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

About the flies, my horse Chorro, who is very reactive and spooky, hates flies. All my unhappy falls and injuries have occurred in fly season. It seems like he's just riding along, miserable with the flies, and suddenly, HE JUST CAN'T STAND IT ANOTHER MINUTE and he spin bolts wildly. I went back and measured one jump and it was about 6 feet sideways. Like Kodak, he has been known to spook wildly in the pasture. Once I was feeding him watermelon, when a gopher rat popped up behind him, and he jumped like a rocket. He'll always be reactive, which makes him fun to ride because he is so sensitive, but I think you have the right idea when you keep mentioning flies. Chorro hardly ever spooks in the winter. Also, as he ages (I got him as a yearling), he is doing better and better. I haven't come off him in about 3 years now, and he spooks more in place than he used to.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> I agree. I look at Harley and see a totally different horse. But she was the same in a bit as the bitless, maybe worse. She's unhappy here because the flies are driving her nuts. You know how some horses just don't care about flies, and others go completely crazy? Well, she's the latter. I have seen her jump out of her skin and run at full gallop to the barn while in the pasture because of the flies. I get it. They are maddening. Big moose flies that take a chunk out of your skin. No products keep them away completely. Maybe she's on edge all the time in the summer because of the flies. They are so bad, they drive moose out of the woods and cause car collisions.
> 
> She has not been checked for ulcers. My vet doesn't recommend scoping, because it can be inconclusive and expensive. He would say just go directly to treatment. Treatment is also expensive. Why would she only have symptoms in the summer? Why would she spook on the ground when she is tied?
> 
> It just doesn't add up. She's quite relaxed in the other photo I think, where she's putting her head down and rounding up her back. But a few minutes later, she spooked.


I do not think she looks real relaxed in the other photo either. She still looks pinched around her mouth and nose. Harley's stance looks more relaxed in the back end. Look how his back legs are apart and square, whereas Kodaks are tight together.

My Arab was on ulcer treatment for 30 days back in June. That $250 was well worth it. He also had the pinched look in his face, and his stance on the back end was the same....hind legs tight. Saw a huge difference the first week, by the end of the 30 days he was a much happier horse.


If she is an anxious horse naturally, and if she has had dubious handling in the last, ulcers are probably highly likely.

Didn't you post a video of her from the seller out on the trail? If I remember the video, she looked pretty good in that video.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

by the way, how's YOUR head? are you feeling ok?

back when I first started riding as an adult (having done a bit as a child, then nothing at all for like 30 years!), I took a fall from a cantering horse. I hit pretty hard, and had I not been wearing a helmet, I'd have been badly injured. as it is, the helmet foam liner split! and I had whiplash that lasted for days. That's when I decided to get some lessons. but, in any case, is your head ok?

I wish we lived closer so that we could ride out together. I'm really good at helping riders become more confident, up to the level of my own confidence, which has CLEAR limits of it's own!

Don't sweat it. But don't ignore it either. I think you will be sooooooo much happier with a horse that doesn't make everyday riding a test of nerves.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> I think a good dealer is way better than private buying for the average rider, often even for good horses.
> 
> Problem is finding a good dealer!
> 
> ...


Perhaps in the Uk, but not here.
We have several local dealers here, that flip horses. They will buy them cheap, put what appears like a good handle on them, at least in an arena, and then sell them for a big profit. Sure, they will take a horse back, let the buyer chose another one, with some extra money applying-kinda like up grading
By privately, as mentioned, I am not talking about any one person that just happens to have a horse they wish to sell, never concerned about any reputation or future sales
I am talking of breeders, who raise those babies form the beginning, and in my case, first ridden every one of those mares in that broodmare band,,plus the stallion.
Those horses don't have holes that some dealer 'patches, ', with that hrose never having that clean slate of a mind-ever!
When you have ridden the dams, shown many of them, ridden and shown your stallion, ridden many full siblings of the hrose(s) offered for sale, to me, that is way better chance of getting a good horse then a horse that is sold through a dealer, much like a used car-you take your chance, and sometimes that used car runs great,other times you buy a mechanical nightmare.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> I do not think she looks real relaxed in the other photo either. She still looks pinched around her mouth and nose. Harley's stance looks more relaxed in the back end. Look how his back legs are apart and square, whereas Kodaks are tight together.
> 
> My Arab was on ulcer treatment for 30 days back in June. That $250 was well worth it. He also had the pinched look in his face, and his stance on the back end was the same....hind legs tight. Saw a huge difference the first week, by the end of the 30 days he was a much happier horse.
> 
> ...



I was not impressed with that sale video, and if you go way back into that thread, when Kodak was first bought, my comments on both the video with the girl and the seller are there.
There was abit of 'smoke and mirrors' , JMO


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Charlie is a reactive horse, but she has learned to be way less reactive, now goes down a trail on a loose rein,does not mind the dog running in and out of the trees.
I see her half brother Einstein, now finally coming out in her. What made her less reactive, of course is trust,but also I decided enough was enough.
When I took her to ride in the local in door arena a few winters ago, she would spook at each and every noise-other horses squealing outside, cats running across that arena, wind blowing against the one door, rattling it, and , fasten your seat belt, when melting snow suddenly slid down the roof and crashed to the ground below!
I was done riding those spooks, and started to get after her. Yes, not the right answer all the time, but I had her figured out as having become somewhat of what Larry trocha calls a habitual spooker
Also, the last thing you do with a reactive horse, is start to pussy foot around them, afraid they will react.
She now is a completely different horse, that I enjoy riding both at shows and on the trail
Oh, she is still the first horse to see if anything strange comes into the yard, and then do her Hi Ho Silver acts out in the field, but the difference being, she now is that reactive on her own time, and not when I am riding her


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I think there are many acceptable times and reasons for people to rehome horses. Sometimes it's better for the horse, sometimes better for everyone involved. I take issue with people rehoming horses because they are old, sick or can't be ridden anymore, or if they have serious problems they want to pass on. But many horses that one person can't handle are perfectly fine for another owner. 

My personal bias is that everyone can develop a secure seat in a short amount of time if they learn the correct technique. I rode for many years and had all kinds of lessons before some good riders finally taught me how to have a secure seat. So I'd say if you need to sell your horse because you're not comfortable with her being unpredictable, and because you want to have a relaxing ride, then that's fine. But I'd still recommend learning how to ride so a spin, spook or take off won't unseat you. Because _any_ horse can do that to you, and any fall from a horse can be serious. 

I rode my friend's OTTB today. She can do all kinds of moves. On our ride she did two 360 spins, ducked her shoulder down and turned quickly at the canter a couple times, leaped up in the air at the canter, and did a big sideways spook. I have not ridden her in a very long time, so I was not certain I could manage her energy or not fall off, but in reality I never came close to losing my seat. We jumped over a log, trotted, cantered on the busy beach with tents, fires, kids, dogs, cars spinning cookies, fireworks. That's not a bragging thing, her rider sits all this on a regular basis and I have other friends who also have learned a solid riding seat. I'm not talking about kids, either. People in their 40s and 50s. Anyway, I recommend it. As George Morris says, "Your security is in your lower leg" and I believe I have proven that true many times.

It's quite simple, just balance over your lower leg that remains securely resting against the horse, and enough weight down that leg and in the stirrups to keep a light seat and be able to lift off the horse's back in an instant if they twist out from under you. It's comfortable and relaxed, but you never put all your weight fully onto your seat bones. Instead, it goes down the horse's sides. I don't put my heels down, they just automatically drop a bit due to my body weight in the stirrups.

The moment your seat lifts up, more weight automatically goes down the leg and the proprioceptors in your feet and joints go to work. Now your body adjusts for you, faster than you can adjust it consciously. It auto-rebalances your torso over your feet, and the weight keeps your leg down around the horse, so everything moves to wherever the horse went. Around in a circle, etc. So you find yourself six feet sideways but sitting on your horse looking at the elk that was laying down in the long grass and stood up as you came upon it (that's why the spook happened today). I've found that back when I tried to use my "seat" as in my butt to balance, my conscious reactions often did the wrong thing. I thought the horse was going right so committed my body but then the horse went the other way. Or I leaned too far and overcompensated, etc.  Fall, fall, fall. Now we spin, leap, duck, dart. Together. That's just my advice after learning to stay on many unpredictable horses.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

:iagree: very well put! 

The problem often stems from the rider being a bit tense and that will prevent all the above. 

Someone once commented after watching me ride a difficult horse, that it was like someone pulling a tablecloth off the table and leaving the china and cutrely in place. 

It is not only using one's lower leg but also learning great balance and how to go with the flow. Easier said than done for many.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@gottatrot, I'm not going to suggest that I have a great seat. I don't. And I do appreciate the advice. But what you all haven't heard of, are the times Kodak spooked and I DIDN'T come off. Her spinning and bolting, and running backwards do not always unseat me. I do think my seat has improved considerably since getting her a year ago. But this spook was bad. Of course it's likely a better rider could have stayed on. I had managed to stay on for all her spooks since last summer. This one, I wasn't able to ride out. 

Off to the hospital. Will update later today.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@bsms I love your explanation of the resting tension in the horse, and the rider. I think you called it resting tension; that's how I think of it and also how I rate a horse. 

So a horse that walks around always at a 3, I rate as a 3 on a scale of 0-10. A constantly reactive horse could be as high as a 7 which does not leave very much room to reach a 10 and in full-blown panic. 

Another term I like to use is "old brain". An old brain horse can be any age, have known 2yr olds that haven't been saddle or cart trained yet that are just "ho, hum" no tension at all. 

On the other end of the spectrum have seen 25 yr olds that are still a 5 or 6. Hot before you even get near them! Knew a Saddlebred stallion that was 30+ yrs old and still constantly moving. That horse never just stood still! He broke out of his corral and into a pasture of mares at 35 and tried to bred them!! 

But to get back to Kodak, she looks extremely uncomfortable to me in those pictures before the ride. Her neck looks stiff as a board and her nose is pointing straight out like she is in pain. My guess would be her back. 

AcadianArtist looks very stiff and braced in every photo. If Acadian's posture is compared with her daughter's posture one can see a huge difference. 

Her DD, on Harley, has her legs on her horse's sides without tension. Her seat is deep and very relaxed. Her shoulders are straight but dropped and relaxed. I see Zero tension in her. 100% calm yet in an effective riding position. Harley is calm but ready, he is not standing around with nose to ground or sleeping. These two look prepared for anything.


----------



## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Smilie said:


> View attachment 912281
> 
> 
> View attachment 912289
> ...


They can be drama queens sometimes, can't they! My mare isn't very spooky, but my instructor was showing me one day how to test if they're really spooking or if they're "fake spooking" to see what kind of reaction they can get from you. The instructor rolled a barrell around letting it hit my mare's feet lightly. She watched Ona until she could tell that she wasn't really afraid of the barrell, she was just pretending to spook in place and watching us to see what we would do and how we would react to her spookiness. They way we could tell was just by watching her body language. Once it was pointed out to me, it was really obvious - I just hadn't been looking for it before because I didn't realize horses were smart enough to fake anything LOL. When she was truly nervous she had both ears pointed at the barrell and was looking intently at it, muscles tense. When she was faking it, her ears were pointed different directions and she only had one eye on the barrell, her muscles were not tense. Once she realized we were onto her we rolled the barrell her way a couple more time and she stood there looking bored.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

It really isn't a question of whether this particular horse can be trained not to spook or if the original poster is riding properly. The question is whether they are a good match and I really do not think that they are.

Flies can be dealt with. Put on a fly mask with ears. Coat the horse with the strongest fly repellent available. 

Another thing, this horse obviously is not controllable with a bit-less bridle. I think that he should learn to respond nicely to a snaffle and not just have it removed because he doesn't like it. :hide: 

This horse didn't spook about flies this time. He spooked at a dog. And the OP is on a long overdue visit to the hospital. 

There are a lot of nice, quiet, calm horses for sale. 

Riding should be fun. If it is not, then I would trade.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I did a lot of bareback riding well into my teens, it improved greatly on my balance. I also had many naughty ponies to rode that some could spook somfast it was a surprise they didn't disappear up their own butts! 

In my twenties I worked with racehorses and one we had was a super fast spinner. No one liked riding him as he could drop most. Somehow I always stayed on the plate until one day, walking home after working them, he suddenly dropped his shoulder and off I went! 

It was the height of amusement with the lads and they never let it be that I had fallen off at a walk! 

I will add that at the time I was twisted around in the saddle to look at the horse behind.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi AA!

14 pages of response; I didn't read thru it all.

But I will tell you the same thing I have been telling my wife for years: Get yourself a sweet, quiet, sane, "husband-proof" horse. Spend whatever it takes for him, and they aren't cheap. Ride him off into the sunset.

Leave the high-energy spooky sport-horses for the younger crowd; an injury at our age can easily sideline way more than just your riding career  Not to mention The Pain.

FWIW, The Missus finally decided that her Rocky Mtn. gelding was just too much, and her trainer found her a really special QH gelding. He came from a polo background, but had been the former owners' kids horse until she headed off for college. He is just _so_ nice. I had to "loan" her $5000 of the $7000 purchase price to get him, but finally, after eight years of horse ownership, I can ride out with my SO. Priceless.

Just $.02 from the Krones -n- Kodgers division ;-) Steve

foto: Judy and Canello


----------



## planta (Aug 23, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks for the advice @planta. I really do not think this is health related. It's not like she never spooked until two weeks ago, she was spooky from the day I brought her home (not when I tried her twice, once on a trail, once in a ring, and had my 12 year old daughter ride her as well!). She was great when I tried her, but I found out afterwards that the dealer who sold her to me had lied about her background. Anyway, that's neither here nor there, but it isn't new behavior. She had her teeth floated in June. Had her shots and the usual checkover. She has had massage therapy for a bad neck. I have had a trainer work with her last summer, and again this year. She can spook because I tie her, or when I'm riding so it doesn't just happen with a person on her back. I've seen her spook randomly in the pasture, and take off in a full gallop while my Arab gelding just looks at her with this mildly intrigued look, but mostly ignores it, because it's Kodak. She does this.
> 
> I am not willing to spend more money on her since she came with a hefty price tag. I thought I was paying for a dead broke, bombproof horse. I've worked with a trainer - have made the choice to have the trainer come to us and work with us together rather than send her away, because I realize that she might be great at the trainer's, but go back to her old patterns at home. I need her to be safe here, with me. I am not at all convinced she will ever be completely trustworthy for a rider of my caliber no matter how much training she gets. She doesn't spook all the time, but it is that unknown trigger, which my trainer has called flashbacks similar to PTSD that may always be a potential. She's not dangerous - at least not intentionally, in the sense that she would never kick, bite, rear, trample or otherwise show any kind of aggressive behavior. But she's dangerous for me. Does that make sense? In other words, a better rider could probably tell her to get over it and ride it out. I'm still learning. I really want to be that rider for her, but I'm not. Spending another 1500$ on training just so she can come back to a mediocre middle-aged amateur rider who will inevitably make mistakes doesn't seem to make much sense. And I paid enough for her that I'll never see that money back, so investing more doesn't make sense. A good, solid rider, probably someone with a Western background who wants to work cows, run barrels, or something like that, might think she's awesome. She has great qualities. She has papers and good, solid breeding. She is willing and has a good mind. When she's good, she's an angel. She will go wherever you ask her to on a trail, and never hurries home. Her pace on a trail ride is perfect. Not too slow, not too fast. She has a lot of "try", and is cooperative, but needs someone who can teach her and guide her. I don't have enough experience to be that person. And she's the prettiest little bay mare you ever saw, though I may be a little biased
> 
> I do love her very much. That makes this decision much harder, but I still think we'd both be better off with a different match.


See, I was writing after reading about bad last two weeks. This post changes my mind completely and I agree. If you don't feel confident and can't trust her, also can't spend money for a training...better either sell Kodak to a more experience rider (no offence, I qualify myself as a beginner who got quite good at hanging out to the saddle for dear life), or if you are able to afford, keep her as a pasture pet.

My trainer and Babe are making tremendous progress. He is doing join-up and building her confidence with calves and standing and training her from a barrel or top or the railing. And he ensures me Babe is nearly as bad as other horses he trained, and she will be completely different. And yes, I stopped trusting her too. She was supposed to be bombproof horse, at the listing were photos that she was standing calmly with a flag over her head, a tarp on her, going thru water, with umbrella...Now I am sure she was sedated for it.

Whatever you decide, do what is best for you.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Celeste said:


> It really isn't a question of whether this particular horse can be trained not to spook or if the original poster is riding properly. The question is whether they are a good match and I really do not think that they are.
> 
> Flies can be dealt with. Put on a fly mask with ears. Coat the horse with the strongest fly repellent available.
> 
> ...


I agree, that the OP is not interested, nor need she be, in riding all types of un predictable hroses. One has every right to chose as to whether one wants to ride a fairly level trail horse, or enjoy the chellenge of riding difficult horses
If you ride horses for money, or are in the business of flipping horses, by re -training them, then that comes with the territory.
There was a time, I, like Trottin, enjoyed getting on horses that were not an easy ride.Youth and pride had me offering to get on friend's horses that were problematic
Now, I take pride, and also enjoy riding a well trained horse, and see it quite immature, when in the past, I thought it was neat when that stud took off at full gallop, soon as I had one foot in the stirrup, got on horses that would buck, did not mind riding ahrose no one else wanted to ride on a trail ride
Yes, developing a good seat is great, but also riding a horse that displays great training and a good mind, to me, is much more rewarding.
When we first got land, and before we started to raise horses, I bought some. Many came with problems. Sure, I was young then and could ride them, but, they were not horses I trusted my young children to ride
When I started to raise hroses, train them myself, I knew exactly what I had, and felt safe putting my young kids on them, after I had ridden them for awhile.
They were also horses I took pride in selling, getting feedback from many people that those hroses were a joy to ride, were exactly as advertised, and even more. Many of those feed backs came from people that had bought one of our horses purely from an ad , and the had that horse transported across Canada, and even to Europe
Any horse can be trail ridden, but an individual has the right to chose a horse, that for them, is fun to ride out.
At this point, Kodak is not that horse for the OP.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Celeste said:


> It really isn't a question of whether this particular horse can be trained not to spook or if the original poster is riding properly. The question is whether they are a good match and I really do not think that they are...
> 
> Riding should be fun. If it is not, then I would trade.


This.

There are techniques for staying on. If I use my Australian-style saddle and VS Littauer's advice on riding, a horse is going to have to buck hard to get rid of me. I'm not coming off in a spook.

But learning as an adult, and learning on a horse where I had to be ready for a violent spook at any time...well, my riding is neither fluid nor admirable. I'm learning to relax on Bandit, but my mother tongue of riding, my 'native language' for riding a horse, was taught by Mia. I adored her and I still miss her, but my riding skill suffered from learning to ride on her.

A young kid riding spooky horses learns exceptional balance. An adult often just learns fear and stiffness. Learning as an adult is different from learning when young! 

My wife and DIL have no business trying to ride challenging horses. So they don't. My wife will probably NEVER get on a challenging horse. She has no interest. But her riding tends to be more fluid and natural looking than mine. My DIL might come off in a violent spook, but she looks like she belongs on a horse. I look like I'm determined to stay on a horse. Huge difference.

A big part of safety in riding comes from matching horse & rider. The sheep rancher I know hires herders who have never been on a horse before and has them riding half-Arabians in rough country - and none of his herders have been hurt in 25+ years. The herders don't ride defensively and often don't ride very well, but they are matched with horses who try to keep their riders on...










Those two guys are now in their 4th year of herding. No injuries at all. But a lot of that comes from carefully picking which horses get assigned to them. Half-Arabians and usually half-Appaloosa...but the RIGHT ones. Not ones like Mia or Bandit.​


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The buyers I had come to see our horses, were not interested in whether I could ride a horse acting up, but rather on how level headed that hrose was, and how well trained and responsive.
One buyer, used to ride TBs and had an open English background. She bought a full sister to Einstein, who had excessive white for ApHC papers (Paint overo patch)
She was amazed, when she came out early one spring to try Patch, aged three at the time, and I loped her in the open snowy field, before she herself did so.
She said, she would have expected a TB that age to try and run off with her.
She bought Patch, rode her open English, including jumping, and she became 'family ' to her,. Her job had her re located between Alberta and Ontario twice, and Patch went with her each time
Great to have some good forward on a horse, have that horse sensitive and responsive, but it doe snot need to be uncontrolled forward, with the excuse, well, it is 'natural' for that horse to burn off energy by challenging the rider, because of breeding, etc
When I see horses like that on a trail ride, I think either, poor mind, or poor training or both.
Yes, any horse can spook, but a habitual spooker,one who offers to spin around, to me shows lack of good training


----------



## weeedlady (Jul 19, 2014)

I haven't read all the responses yet. I will, but wanted to add my 2 cents.

I don't know if you should keep Kodak or not. Only you can answer that question. You know in your heart what you should do.

I just want to say that it's taken Raven and I almost 3 years to really get to know each other and to be more comfortable on the trail. She still spooks-sometimes big spins and attempts to bolt, sometimes not so big. I absolutely hate it when she spooks - it scares me and shakes my confidence badly. But the more we ride, the better WE get. I'm a better rider than I was 3 years ago, and she's a better trail horse.

My opinion? (for what it's worth, lol). Find a very calm horse and rider to buddy up with on the trail and give Kodak more time.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

14 pages of responses... wow! I can't respond to each and every one, but be assured, I've read them all. 

I just wanted to update to say that I saw a dr. He thinks I have a mild "deceleration concussion". So it's not so much a blow to the head, as the fact that I flew off a galloping horse sideways and it scrambled my brain a little. He compared it to shaken baby syndrome. He does not think there is any significant damage, but said I should come back if I suddenly get some new symptoms. They even x-rayed my neck because it's quite sore, and did not see anything worrisome. 

So I'm cleared, medically, but I am not allowed to ride again until I've gone at least a week without symptoms (I do have headaches and my neck hurts). I don't know when that will be. So I guess it's ground work for me and Kodak for a while. 

And yes, for all the great suggestions on improving my seat, the bottom line is that I don't want a spooky horse. There are quieter horses out there that I may be able to trust more than I trust Kodak. I've been working with her for a year. It's not like I gave up after the first two weeks. I just don't think we're a match. 

If I compare how I feel on Kodak to how I feel on Harley (I do hop on him on occasion), it's day and night. I totally trust Harley. On the ground, and on his back. He's forward, and can be jiggy on a trail, but he won't dump me. Between Kodak's spooks and her pulling back, I have come to feel anxious around her, both on the ground and in the saddle. That's just no fun to me. And I agree, my daughter looks far more relaxed on Harley than I do on Kodak. And while the nervous tension flows from the rider to the horse, I would argue that the reverse is true as well. What if it isn't me making Kodak nervous, but the other way around? I have every reason to believe that riding her will end badly now. Call me crazy, but for me to relax on her isn't a solution. I tried that. The second time I fell off her last summer, I was totally relaxed, standing in the middle of the riding ring, slumped over with a totally loose rein watching my daughter jump with Harley. A plastic bag blew about 200 ft away and Kodak went from 0 to 60 in seconds...


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

weedlady said:


> My opinion? (for what it's worth, lol). Find a very calm horse and rider to buddy up with on the trail and give Kodak more time.


This isn't possible. There is no one near me who fits that description, and this was supposed to be Kodak's job. I ride with my 12 year old daughter. While her horse is more dependable than Kodak, he's not fond of trails. Kodak was supposed to be our solid trail horse who could show Harley the ropes. She is clearly not that, even though there have been good trail rides with her. It isn't fair to expect my daughter and her horse to babysit me and Kodak. I need a bombproof trail horse, which is what I wanted in the first place.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

There are good solid trail horses out there. Clearly, it's time to take the experience you've already had with you and go look for one. And go with a friend with experience and a jaundiced eye. 

What province are you in, if you don't mind me asking? I lived on Cape Breton (Margaree Harbour and Mabou) for six months, long long ago. It's one of my fondest memories of a geographical place. Nowhere more beautiful, to my mind.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Avna said:


> There are good solid trail horses out there. Clearly, it's time to take the experience you've already had with you and go look for one. And go with a friend with experience and a jaundiced eye.
> 
> What province are you in, if you don't mind me asking? I lived on Cape Breton (Margaree Harbour and Mabou) for six months, long long ago. It's one of my fondest memories of a geographical place. Nowhere more beautiful, to my mind.


I'm in central New Brunswick. Cape Breton is gorgeous, but I hope you weren't there in the winter. It can get quite bleak and the winds are often quite powerful. Fall is an amazing season in Cape Breton though!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Celeste said:


> Flies can be dealt with. Put on a fly mask with ears. Coat the horse with the strongest fly repellent available.
> 
> Another thing, this horse obviously is not controllable with a bit-less bridle. I think that he should learn to respond nicely to a snaffle and not just have it removed because he doesn't like it. :hide:
> 
> Riding should be fun. If it is not, then I would trade.


Obviously you haven't met our flies. Moose flies or deer flies are not deterred by any fly repellent. Trust me. An entire week-long horse riding camp my daughter was going to attend had to be cancelled because of the flies. It's just cruel to expose horses to them, so during the peak hours, horses are stalled. There is NOTHING you can do to keep those flesh-eating monsters at bay. Which is why we only ride first thing in the morning, when those particular types of flies are not active. There are, of course, mosquitoes, black flies, no-see-ums and regular horse flies, but those can be managed. As for putting on a fly mask, I've tried. Unfortunately, because Kodak has a history of people abusing her around the head, she is extremely touchy about putting anything up there. I've only attempted it while she's in the pasture, and it didn't go well. I'm not about to add another element or risk while I'm riding. But you're right, for most horses, that might be a good solution. Just not for her. 

As for the bitless bridle, she's spooked in a bit and in a bitless. It makes no difference. She's not more forward in the bitless. Spooking can happen no matter which type of bridle she's in, and I have come off her with both, and have also ridden out spooks in both. I doubt it really has any effect. Her speed and cooperation don't change from one to the other. When she's good, she's good in a bit or a bitless. When she spooks, it doesn't make a difference either. 

I will, however, whole-heartedly agree with your last post! I am very hopeful about a horse my trainer is working with currently, and has promised to give me first dibs on. In fact, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, she offered to let me keep the horse for the winter, as I've expressed above, and by spring, I can decide to buy it or let her sell it to someone else. That's a pretty sweet deal! Not the prettiest horse, but really laid back and totally chill about everything. More whoa than go. I figure, what do I have to lose? Maybe the cost of a few more bales of hay... so I guess I better look into finishing that third stall soon! Of course I will go meet the horse and do a few test rides first. She's not ready to go yet anyway, my trainer still wants to try her in various situations to make sure she's really as rock-solid as she seems so far. Neither of us is in a rush. This seems like potentially a perfect situation. 

I may see if any of the local BOs would be interested in adding Kodak to their barns for the winter too. Sort of a free-lease. Some more advanced students sometimes like to take on more challenging horses, and I know one barn that has a lot of fairly advanced Western students. I still think Kodak's speed and reflexes would serve her well as the barrel racer she used to be.

In the meantime, my daughter's coach offered to take Kodak for 5 days next week. Harley is going to camp with my daughter, so the coach offered a stall for Kodak as well. Some of her more advanced students may try her (she knows about EVERYTHING that has happened, and I have told her what to expect), but if she doesn't feel that's wise, she'll ride her a few times herself. Maybe Kodak would be happier in a larger herd... she always lived with a lot of horses. An insecure horse like her might feel more confident in a group. So we are exploring a lot of different options right now. I can't ride anyway (dr.'s orders), so it will be good if someone else can work with Kodak for a bit. If nothing else, it will give us an idea of how she behaves with a far more experienced rider.


----------



## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

It sounds like you've found a great solution! It must be a load off of your shoulders, and I'll bet you're excited about the new horse. Congratulations. I hope your Dr. appointment went well.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

george the mule said:


> Hi AA!
> 
> 14 pages of response; I didn't read thru it all.
> 
> ...


You're a wise man Steve. I think this is exactly what I'm going to do. I'm to old to keep being stressed about every.single.ride.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

newtrailriders said:


> It sounds like you've found a great solution! It must be a load off of your shoulders, and I'll bet you're excited about the new horse. Congratulations. I hope your Dr. appointment went well.


Thank you. And yes, I'm excited about this new horse! She seems perfect for me. Slightly larger than what I like to ride, but nothing huge. She even has potential to be trained to pull a sleigh, which was one of the things I really wanted to do. She doesn't have a ton of training, and isn't the prettiest horse, but has a lot more whoa than go, and is really placid about everything. I will continue to work with my trainer so we can bring her along together, if I do bring her on trial. But really, I'll be happy just to have a horse that is reliable on trails and willing to go anywhere. This may or may not be the final solution, but because it is my nature to be a problem-solver, I feel better knowing there are options out there. 

The Dr. says I'm ok. The noggin is still more or less intact. However, I cannot ride again until I go a week without symptoms (I have a sore neck and headaches). He says I suffered a "deceleration concussion" which he compared to shaken baby syndrome. My eggs got scrambled, in other words! But I'll be ok.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> This may or may not be the final solution, but because it is my nature to be a problem-solver, I feel better knowing there are options out there.


Just remember that when you're a hammer everything looks like a nail. They aren't always. So, in other words, yes you're a problem solver but not everything has to be a problem or even some problems don't need solving. Cuts down on the fretting.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

This is the potential horse. Does she look relaxed enough for you?  Ok, she grabbed some grass, but really, nothing seems to get this mare worked up. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Aaaawww! What do you mean "not pretty?" Is she red roan?


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

newtrailriders said:


> Aaaawww! What do you mean "not pretty?" Is she red roan?


She is a red roan  And this is the absolute best photo of her I've seen so far. She's a little more lumbering, not petite like Kodak. Her conformation isn't great. I do like my horses smallish, usually, but she's still within what I'm comfortable riding. But I don't care what she looks like at this point. As long as she's quiet and willing, I'm going to give her a shot!


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> She doesn't have a ton of training, and isn't the prettiest horse, but *has a lot more whoa than go*, and is *really placid *about everything.


And that's exactly the type of horse you need. I hope this works out for you. Who cares if she is ugly? (although for the record, I think she looks nice :grin: )


----------



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

She is GORGEOUS! If we are just talking color, I'll take a roan over a bay any day, no offense to Kodak :wink:

Your plan sounds great. Win-win-win for all involved.
While I'm not affectionate of the barrel world and all I have seen there, I must say that I think Kodak would do best to go back to her barrel job. The majority of barrel racers would not be intimidated by her antics.

In fact, at least in my area, a lot of her behaviors I have seen exhibited by horses at gymkhanas/barrel events (why I don't go to them anymore). You have to be very skilled to not mess a horse up by doing barrel racing. Unfortunately, there are a lot of bad handlers/riders in the barrel world (I mean, they are in any discipline, I just personally have seen it a lot more in gymkhana type stuff) and that could be from where Kodak's problems stem.

Not looking to get chewed out by the barrel racers here... I did say that you have to be very skilled to not screw a horse up barrel racing, which means that if you are good at barrel racing and still have a nice horse, you are far more skilled than most of us, which is a compliment!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Well, she may or may not be the horse for me, but she certainly seems to fit the bill, and the timing couldn't be better. Still, I will take it slow. I'll ride her a few times, then perhaps bring her home for a while. I'll post more about her if this goes ahead. For now, I still want to work with Kodak on the ground and have others ride her, if for no other reason than she does best when ridden regularly. But also because the more we know about what works for her and what doesn't, the better chance we have of finding the right home for her.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> I'm in central New Brunswick. Cape Breton is gorgeous, but I hope you weren't there in the winter. It can get quite bleak and the winds are often quite powerful. Fall is an amazing season in Cape Breton though!


Heh. While I was there I asked somebody why everyone had these sort of boxes around their exterior doors, always with the opening on the same side. The answer was, so you could get the door closed in a winter gale. 

I was there in the other three seasons.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I wanted to add that I took Kodak out for some groundwork and a walk around the property tonight. Just in case you think I'm just forgetting about her. She was a nervous nelly, as usual, but I kept her attention on me by asking her to move, halt, back, do circles around me, etc. As long as she was paying more attention to me than her surroundings, she was ok. But if she forgot about me, she tensed up at a tree, at a board, at our pool... this may be part of the solution in riding her. She cannot really be left to think about things too much, or she will find a reason to spook. 

I do think it's important to both of us to continue to work through this, and since I can't ride, this was a way to spend time together, let her look at scary things without spooking, and rebuilding my confidence in handling her as well. Whatever happens, I want to do right by her.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> She was a nervous nelly, as usual, but I kept her attention on me by asking her to move, halt, back, do circles around me, etc. As long as she was paying more attention to me than her surroundings, she was ok. But if she forgot about me, she tensed up at a tree, at a board, at our pool... this may be part of the solution in riding her. She cannot really be left to think about things too much, or she will find a reason to spook.
> 
> .


And there you have it, you have cracked it!

I was struggling so much with Fergie until one day I was walking her through the gate into the indoor arena and really looked at her, she was head up on alert, as normal, as I had always let her be. A ton of bricks descended and I realized that I had to 'fix' her lookiness right from the get go, never let her get fixated on anything. Now we get on a lot better BUT I could never have made it with her at home and riding on my own, only have survived because I always had someone there for a long time.


In the situation you are in, we'll just stay safe, do the ground work, keep her attention, see where it goes, you are helping her future, wherever that is destined to be.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

exactly, and what I had to do with Charlie. Making her focus, getting after her for habitual spooking,and it was not a negative, in her case.
She used to look for a reason to spook, and then try to follow it up , 'big'
I also agree with with an old cowhand told me long ago, 'you can always speed a horse up, but much harder to slow a horse down (speed and mentally ).
That is why I never ran games on any of my horses until they were solid in precise work, soft in the entire body and in their mind.

Do other wise, and you have a speed horse that never understands relaxation, and even if ridden with soft hands, remembers that 'jerk and spur type of riding, needed, to do anything at speed, if good basics are not on the hrose first.
That is why I have a real problem, when I see kids at the local shows, run games, before they have learned good horsemanship

Good luck, and hope you find the right horse, or even still able to convert Kodak into the right horse, with the right resources, if you do not wish to sell her

I do see a very mixed picture, after you posted that she only acts this way in the months mares cycle. There truly are mares, that are very difficult to ride when in heat, and require the same type of handling a stallion does, to ignore those hormones, or get chemical help, or even have those ovaries removed
Thus, I certainly would first find out as to what you are dealing with, track her heat cycles and see if she truly is different/reactive, ONLY when in heat
If that is the case, you then can decide whether you wish to eliminate that cause, or not deal with it, and still find a horse where you are a better match
Far as those big deer flies, we have them here also, and I have trail ridden where they draw blood, where you can't tie a horse up for a noon break, as they go nuts, with those deer flies really responding to a 'dinner bell'
Still, when we ride, my hrose still don't offer to buck, ect, and I try to hit as many as I can, while riding along.
I was thinking of trying BOSS, on the horses we ride out west, as suggested by one vet. Deer flies take enough of a blood meal, that they are vectors for the transmission of EIA, and feral horses out west are a pool for EIA
We are going out next weekend, and I am going to put some Boss on Carmen and Rubix. Will let you know how it works, far as those voracious biting flies !


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Intriguing suggestion @Smilie, about tracking her cycle. I'll do some reading to figure out roughly when they are supposed to occur, and try to keep track. But while her spooks always happened in the summer months, she seems batty all summer long. In other words, it's not just certain days. For these few months, she's completely distracted and on edge. Mind you, I've only had her a year. Could be coincidence. 

Never heard of "Boss"! Let me know how it works. I wanted to try Ecovet, but it's not available in Canada. So frustrating. None of the fly repellents have helped one bit. I have seen the horses come in with their necks covered in blood. Harley just goes nocturnal this time of year, and sleeps in his stall all day to avoid them. But they don't go after him the way they go after Kodak either. Strange phenomenon, but I've also observed it in humans. Flies don't bother me much, but they drive my husband crazy. He just can't understand how I can stand being outside sometimes. I guess horses are the same. But flies are a fact of life. We try to ride when they're not so bad, but how a horse reacts to them is important to me. And the more worked up they get (same for humans), the more flies are attracted to them because they emit more CO2.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> ...As long as she was paying more attention to me than her surroundings, she was ok. But if she forgot about me, she tensed up at a tree, at a board, at our pool... this may be part of the solution in riding her. She cannot really be left to think about things too much, or she will find a reason to spook...


As usual, I'll go against the grain.

Bandit was like this - at first. I figured that meant he had a lot of tension and fear inside, NOT that he was looking for a reason to spook. I don't think horses enjoy being afraid. I think it twists their guts like it does ours. While it is POSSIBLE to keep them too busy to pay attention to what they are worried about, I think the SOLUTION is to teach them:

1 - It really isn't anything to worry about. And

2 - Humans are very good at figuring out what needs to be worried about.​ 
Rather than keep his mind off of what he may be afraid of, I want to use each instance as a chance to TEACH him - teach him both 1 & 2. If Bandit rode out at an 8 in tension, it meant a lot of things scared him. My goal was to have him simply stop being afraid. If that meant turning him around, backing off, and then dismounting and spending 10 minutes showing him, very slowly, that it wasn't scary...so be it.

The first time I walked Bandit around the block, leading him, it took us an hour to cover the 0.7 miles. LOTS of things worried him. He still has more inner tension in a neighborhood than in the desert. So...the teaching continues.

But the result is a horse who can go around both very alert and yet relaxed. This is NOT Bandit being nervous:








​ 
He's aware, but he is mostly looking for possible exits from the wash - something he knows I am interested in. Exits are things we negotiate - do we BOTH feel good about climbing out at X? Is he also aware of things I am incapable of hearing/smelling? Yep. And if something worries him, he'll let me know. And then we negotiate how to handle it. His hearing and sense of smell is far better than mine, while my vision is better than his. So we work as a team.

The quick solution to getting a horse past things is often to keep them too focused on their feet to act on their fear. But the best way, IMHO, is to take each scary thing as a learning opportunity, and teach them confidence - in their rider and in themselves.

But I admit my opinion is probably a minority one.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@*bsms* Clearly, it works for you and Bandit to work this way. Kudos to you! I find that if I let Kodak worry too much about things, it gets worse. I think that your approach works well for some horse/rider teams, but not necessarily all. 

When we did the desensitization training last summer, no matter how many times my trainer waved the plastic bag at the end of the crop, Kodak would still react. Not in fear anymore, because after a few sessions the fear was gone, but out of... I don't know, habit? Same way she will move away from me initially when I approach with the halter. It's not fear... but there are ingrained habits there. She'll put her head up and threaten to shy away, but then give in. Every time.

When she pulled back hard on the cross-ties, I thought she would break them, or her halter. But oddly, she stopped pulling after a few seconds. Like it was more about making a statement (?) than actual panic. Not like when she ripped the board off the hitching post. I do think that was some kind of panic reaction. But on the cross-ties in the barn, it seemed less intense somehow. And she gave up sooner. Is she testing me? My trimmer who was working on her at the time has tons of experience and wasn't able to stop the reaction (we all just stood clear from her and waited). So it's not just with me. Is it a tantrum of some sort? I don't know. But this is all the more reason she needs to be with someone with far more experience than me.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Depends on the horse, and we have gone into the different types of spooks before, BSMS
you are not going against the grain, just generalizing. Yes, as with Bandit, if she was truly spooking due just to fear, then having her learn to trust the rider's judgement is a great way to go
However, a reactive horse is never focused, and when their mind is elsewhere, it is not on you. Anyone who has ridden a young stallion,knows how important it is to immediately get his attention back on you, when he wants to focus on some mares running out in the pasture
Kodak has also been 'around the block' enough, to have become used to external stimuli, sights, ect. I believe she was touted to having worked cattle????
Thus, she appears to me to be more of the type of reactive horse that truly does look for stuff to spook at, or is always up tight, so that it takes very little to set her off. Ever have someone unexpectedly touch you , when you are up tight?

Those types of horses, in my experience, you have to ride very proactively, and it is not just a matter of exposure, time ect. 
It can be partly the way she was trained and ridden, as obviously, she has issues
Some horses will come around with time, and others will never have that clean slate of mind again, taking very little to trigger them
That is the very reason my son won't sell that Appaloosa gelding he rescued, who used to just blank out and buck blind. He has not had time to ride him hardly at all this year, having a three year old filly to ride, plus is riding his working cowhorse on trails. Appy still rides great for my son, whenever he does get on him, , but my son considers that Appy might be unpredictable for someone else, thus is keeping him. 
Mia is not Bandit, nor is Kodak, and I really don't see her changing until someone makes the wrong thing, like spinning or bolting after a spook,, have consequences.
Even then, she might always need that kind of rider. I could be wrong, but a horse her age, is pretty set in her ways


I see our posts must have crossed,Acadianartist , as you seem to see exactly what I more or less wrote !


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

bsms said:


> <snip>
> The quick solution to getting a horse past things is often to keep them too focused on their feet to act on their fear. But the best way, IMHO, is to take each scary thing as a learning opportunity, and teach them confidence - in their rider and in themselves.
> 
> But I admit my opinion is probably a minority one.


No, I totally agree with you. However, it takes a certain mind-set on the part of the rider to accomplish this, and it's really hard to learn to do it if you're frightened/not confident, owing to past bad experience. As confidence comes from successful experience, you're stuck.

The easiest and (I would argue) best way out is to spend time with a "bombproof" horse who will graciously play "fill-in-the-blanks" for you until you accumulate enough "success" to be confident. At that point, you will probably find that the horse that was once spooky will now be a lot less reactive. You've broken the nervous "feedback" loop, and now your confidence bolsters the horse: "No Worries; it's just an old plastic bag blowin' in the wind. Let's amble over and take a look . . ."

I think probably most successful riders pass thru this process, tho they may not recognize or acknowledge it. And I think it applies to many things in life besides horses, but that's for food for another discussion 

Steve


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

nOt so simple in this case, if you read the entire history of this horse!
The horse does not only spook, but spins and bolts
BSMS, did you yourself not resort to a /big bit, with Mia, so she would not try to bolt after a spook? Not that I advocate going to a stronger bit for control, but if one cure/fix fits all, that kinda contradicts as to what you are saying, as, while ideally most horses will learn confidence with exposure, learning to trust the rider's judgement, some need other measures, as that habit is ingrained, and they have in fact learned they can spin and bolt after a spook, and must then be ridden to prove to them that assumption is not true
I accept a horse doing a true fear spook. I never accept if that horse then tries to spin or leave /bolt.
No different then a horse having learned that a plain halter and lead shank can't really hold him, and learns he can pull away.You then must use whatever it takes, to make future attempts unsuccessful. Same with the halter pulling.
Bolting is dangerous, and the OP is lucky she was wearing a helmet
This is not a green horse,just learning to ride out 
She is touted to having worked cattle.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is a video on a horse that spooks and tries to leave,and how you ride such a horse.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As Mr Jorrocks would say about his hunters, " 'andsome is as 'andsome does!"


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Great video Smilie. Yes, I saw the spook at 2:06. At first, the horse is apprehensive and won't go forward. But then he spins and tries to run away. This is indeed what Kodak does. This time, I stayed on for the first spin, but when she spun again in the middle of her gallop, I was unable to stick on the saddle. Maybe if I'd been in my Aussie saddle... but I shouldn't need to rely on a saddle to stay on. And if I can't stay on, I can't redirect the spook.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

george the mule said:


> No, I totally agree with you. However, it takes a certain mind-set on the part of the rider to accomplish this, and it's really hard to learn to do it if you're frightened/not confident, owing to past bad experience. As confidence comes from successful experience, you're stuck.
> 
> The easiest and (I would argue) best way out is to spend time with a "bombproof" horse who will graciously play "fill-in-the-blanks" for you until you accumulate enough "success" to be confident. At that point, you will probably find that the horse that was once spooky will now be a lot less reactive. You've broken the nervous "feedback" loop, and now your confidence bolsters the horse: "No Worries; it's just an old plastic bag blowin' in the wind. Let's amble over and take a look . . ."
> 
> Steve


Yup. Exactly. Nail on the head. Maybe someday I will welcome a new challenge. But for now, I need a horse I can continue to learn on without fearing for my life.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Kodak has also been 'around the block' enough, to have become used to external stimuli, sights, ect. I believe she was touted to having worked cattle????
> Thus, she appears to me to be more of the type of reactive horse that truly does look for stuff to spook at, or is always up tight, so that it takes very little to set her off. Ever have someone unexpectedly touch you , when you are up tight?
> 
> Those types of horses, in my experience, you have to ride very proactively, and it is not just a matter of exposure, time ect.
> ...


Again, I fully agree! I don't know how much she worked cows, but there is a photo of her doing that. She was on a large ranch. I think she needs to be ridden by someone who is always on their toes, and can react immediately and confidently. That doesn't sound like fun to me, as a recreational rider. But I can see how someone else might enjoy it. We even tried popping over a few cavalettis (my daughter rode her for that, I don't jump, and we lunged her over the cavalettis first to see what she would do) and she was great! She's a cute little jumper. Again, that's the kind of sport where you need a reactive horse that has lots of get-up-and-go. Since she's willing, there's no indication of wanting to refuse or go around the jump. There are options for her out there. But being a backyard trail horse may not be the best one.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If she was out working cows she wouldn't have the energy to spook!

Horses that have the energy to mess around with me get worked amd worked hard. I will trot or canter them up every hill I have around and they are barely given time to regain their breath. 

When the racehorses came up from summer grass, they were fine to rode for he first month, then they got what I would call 'silly fit' when there was a gremlin under every leaf. Once they got to being about three quarters fit or were racing fit, they rarely ever did anything untoward.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, I think we agreed that wet saddle blankets often cure a horse like Kodak, but putting them on, is not often practical for someone that is not riding for money,or using that horse to make a living, but just wants a nice horse they can get on and ride,
That is why I suggested some long mountain miles, or to lease Kodak to someone for several months that rides grazing leases, doctoring cattle as needed
Unfortunately, those situations are hard to find, where the OP lives, versus here in Alberta, where we have both mountains and large working cattle ranches, with many of those ranches have grazing leases for the summer, with cattle scattered all over in forestry regions and other government land


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

When I first had Tom come to me he was so nappy I had to fight to get him away from the barn. One day he stopped at the road junction and would have turned left a short ride around the block. Instead I took him across the road into a field being ploughed. I worked him in that plough for about an hour. The farmer said, " Well, he's had a good work out today." 
To which I replied, " Now he can go where I want! " I took him where I intended to go in the first place. 

I had two months of him napping then he gave it up he learned it was easier to do as asked.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Poor video, IMHO @Smilie.

First, that was NOT a major spook. That was pretty trivial. I mentioned how happy I was with Bandit on our last ride, but Bandit squirted sideways like that a whole 100 yards from home. Over...I don't know. Neither did he. Big whoop.

Second, the rider created the minor spook by insisting on always facing the scary thing, and always approaching it.

An example from a couple of months ago: Riding along a trail, Bandit and I came across a highway warning sign place a half mile from the nearest road. No idea WHO or WHY it was there! Bandit didn't approve. So...did I insist he face it?

No. He paused, we both looked at it, and then I asked him to detour round some cactus, putting us about 50 feet further away with cactus between the sign and us. He went quietly. While looking.

Returning back that way later, he almost went by on the trail. At the last moment, he got a bit nervous, so I asked for a trot. We went by on the trail, but trotting. Sort of sideways.

The next ride, we went by there again. That time he walked past, giving it the Stink Eye. Returning home, he ignored it. And he ignored it every time after that, until someone removed it. Then we trotted a little sideways past where it was no longer...but on the return trip, he strolled past the missing sign.

And yes, all of it was done with slack in the reins. Some slack, although I was ready to take it out if needed. But I didn't try to control everything. I don't feel the need. I believe I have BETTER CONTROL when I give MORE FREEDOM to the horse. I have less chance of the horse exploding - and the horse in the video did not in ANY way explode - if I give the horse options. That is why I have learned - and didn't truly learn it until I started working with Bandit - to search for "mutually acceptable compromises".

Boundaries: We don't spin, buck, bolt or bite. If you spin - and a spin involves a lot more than 45 degrees! - then I will use the reins to keep you spinning until we end up facing the thing. And when you give up spinning - Tom Robert's training principle of "_This will PROFIT you not_" - THEN we will look for a mutually acceptable approach. Maybe turn 135 degrees and walk 100 feet away. Or trot past instead of walk past. Lots of options.

Once Bandit learned spinning 180 would not profit him, I often ended up ASKING him to turn 180 and WALK away. Once a safe distance, we would turn back, I'd dismount, and then we would take whatever time needed to go closer on Bandit's schedule - leading him one step at a time, with slack in my lead rope. NEVER pulling. Letting my HORSE decide how fast we approached.

But I was always right about how scary something was, and he soon began to realize that listening to me was the safest thing he could do. He is and always will be a cautious mustang. He has figured out his hearing and sense of smell are better than mine, so he is free to alert me to a potential threat. Then I will LOOK at it - my sight is better than his - and WE will decide how to handle it. Then WE respond.

I never fully tried that approach with Mia. As a new rider, almost everyone - including almost everyone on HF - told me I needed to be confident. Strong, Determined. "_Don't let her win! She is looking for something to spook at! She's got your number! She is disrespectful - show her she can't get away with it!_"

But Mia wasn't the average horse! I PMed Cherie once, years ago, about her thread on getting a good trail horse. She was kind enough to respond, and said a very nervous horse like Mia would take a different approach.

I'm not suggesting every horse responds the same way. Cowboy and Trooper are both fundamentally calm horses. In most cases, you can push them past things and they will never get excited enough to act stupid or stop learning. A friend and I rode Trooper and Cowboy into gun fire a few years back, for goodness sakes!

But a nervous horse, as James Fillis recognized, needs a different approach. And if Kodak acts nervous after having been ridden a lot, then MAYBE she IS like Bandit. Bandit probably had a couple thousand miles of riding on him. His previous owner used to ride him 20-40 miles a shot, regularly, and used him for pony express relay races. He had uncounted wet saddle blankets, but no one had taught him to be calm. "Calm, Forward and Straight" - but calm comes first!



> "Kodak has also been 'around the block' enough, to have become used to external stimuli, sights, ect. I believe she was touted to having worked cattle????
> Thus, she appears to me to be more of the type of reactive horse that truly does look for stuff to spook at" - @smile


Bandit had been used with sheep, cattle, for racing and had chased coyotes. But he never learned "calm". He's close to learning it here, now, although my idea of "calm" may not be quite the same as others! Wet saddle blankets do not, by themselves, calm a horse!

Now...does @Acadianartist want to deal with that? It sounds like the answer is no. My wife and daughter would also say no. And we have two horses who don't need to be taught calm. There is NOTHING wrong with not wanting to train a horse, particularly if one is a newer rider. Or an older one. I'm 59. I understand.



> Maybe if I'd been in my Aussie saddle... but I shouldn't need to rely on a saddle to stay on.


Just an aside, but my Aussie saddle probably kept me alive until I was better at riding out spooks. I sometimes had 4" bruises on my thighs from where the poleys slammed into me as my horse spun. As an F-4 instructor pilot used to say, "_You no have will to cheat, you no have will to win!_"

I still cheat. I find sheepskin on my slick seat saddle to be a lot like butt velcro. I have no more shame in using it than I have shame in wearing a helmet! If "cheating" helps me stay safe, I'll cheat!

But yes - if you don't enjoy that sort of riding, find a horse you DO enjoy riding! I can argue until I'm blue in the face about techniques for working with a nervous horse, but no one in my family WANTS to ride Bandit yet! Nor do they need to ride him. Riding should be FUN.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yup, you get it bsms. It's not fun for me to ride Kodak anymore. It's stressful. I worked really hard for a year with her. Some might say I need to keep at it, that maybe after 3 years, 5 years, she will be better. But what if she's not? What if the next time she spooks, I get hurt worse? Even if I don't 5 years of this might be enough to turn me off riding forever. I know you get it, I'm just explaining for the sake of others who say "My horse was like this, so I made him work hard for an hour, then it was all better." This is not the first time with Kodak. And I agree with you @bsms, that wasn't a bad spook in that video. Still, I found it interesting that the rider was able to maintain control and turn the horse to face the scary object. Kodak has had mild spooks. If that's all it was, I could maybe deal with it. But the amount of tension in her ALL the time doesn't make it fun for me either. She doesn't relax, so I don't relax, and we are both miserable. 

And yes, I would normally have ridden a trail in my Aussie. The only reason I didn't is that I was working in the arena with my daughter, where we were doing drills. Posting in an Aussie isn't impossible, but it's harder, so I used my English saddle for that. I didn't bother switching them out for a trail ride, because we were just doing a quick loop around the property. Obviously I wish I had, but regardless, it wouldn't have prevented the spook. Even if I had stayed on, it doesn't make for a fun, relaxing trail ride. 

And yes, @Smilie is quite right, we don't have the big cow ranches here that they do out west. Nor do we have mountains. There really isn't anywhere here I can just send her to get wet saddle pads. There aren't any "working" horses around here, except lesson horses and draft horses. 

And for me, there's the practical matter of finding time to put wet saddle pads on her. I do work full-time. I'm an academic, in the publish-or-perish system. I work from home a lot, which gives me a flexible schedule, but I don't have several hours a day to ride. When I'm not working, I'm looking after my kids, a house, and shoveling manure! There's very little time for wet saddle pads, though I will say that my daughter and I ride most mornings. But it's not a "hard" ride. It's riding with a 12 year old who is mostly doing show prep. I think Kodak would do better with someone who could really work her hard.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

There is no point in keeping a horse that you are worried about riding nor any shame in selling them. 

Not every rider gets on with every horse. Years ago when I was a child one of the UKseadi g lady riders, Pat Smythe had a very good horse, Sinsalve. She won a fainamount on him but never really got along with him so he went to a young rider, David Broome, amd they won even more.

More recently though several years back, a top event rider, Ginny Leng had a big grey, Murphy Himself, she gave up the rode which went to Ian Stark, they were something else to watch going cross country. 

If top riders can do it, so can you!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> When I first had Tom come to me he was so nappy I had to fight to get him away from the barn. One day he stopped at the road junction and would have turned left a short ride around the block. Instead I took him across the road into a field being ploughed. I worked him in that plough for about an hour. The farmer said, " Well, he's had a good work out today."
> To which I replied, " Now he can go where I want! " I took him where I intended to go in the first place.
> 
> I had two months of him napping then he gave it up he learned it was easier to do as asked.


Yes, those ploughed fields are great, used it myself on a young gelding I gave to my younger son, who never rode often enough, and out of a mare whose young hroses you just did not leave for six months
Thus, in the spring, while he was still in college, hoping he would ride him in the summer, I would start to ride him. He would offer to buck.
Several laps at a gallop around that ploughed field,,worked great!
I also accepted that my younger son, was not going to be involved with hroses, nor interested in riding them again, like he did as a kid, when the entire family went trail riding
I thus give him a buyer, interested in the hrose, and he used the funds for college. Win situation for everyone!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Gotta go ride a horse before it rains, so quick response to BSMS
I did not post that video to show a major spook and bolt, but rather the control the rider has on that horse, able to use one rien effectively, and body response to legs, so it never gets to that point or an extreme full out bolt, where he is able to keep that hrose facing the object of his fear
That is particularity important if that object is not stationary, might even come towards you


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

The point of the video was to show how an experinced rider KEEPS a horse from bolting, with one rein and body control. A less experienced rider, and that horse would have bolted into the next county.

There was no yanking and spanking or screaming and yelling. Just a slow building of confidence in the horse.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I see little value in insisting a nervous horse always faces the scary thing. If one wants to create a hard spook, that is a good approach.

Think about it from the horse's view. It instinctively wants to ESCAPE.

I used to fly in jet fighters. The threat ring around a surface to air missile site usually was not a circle. Flying directly at it, it might be able to get you from range X. Flying abeam it, it might be able to get you from range 1/2X. Flying away from it, the max range of the SAM might be 1/4 X.

And if you were not headed directly toward it, speed helped. At 350 knots abeam, it might have a range of 1/2X. But at 700 kts abeam, it might be 0.1X.

Horses are not jet fighters, nor are they fighter pilots. But they instinctively know about threat rings, and how position and speed affect how close they can get. That is why, when Bandit shied on our last ride, I asked him to CANTER past on the road. Then we turned around, and trotted past a couple of times. Then we walked past. Then he watched our Steady Eddie horse stroll past, smoking a joint. Then I asked him to walk past, stop dead in the "threat ring", and look. He did. When he sighed, we turned and strolled away. We used a combination of speed and position to make him feel safe enough, and worked our way until he stood dead center.

This is irrelevant to Acadianartist. If it isn't fun, it isn't fun. Don't. 

But it is relevant to working a nervous horse. Just because a horse has lots of miles doesn't mean it learned to ride calmly. "Calm" ought to be the #1 lesson taught a new horse, but it often isn't. *Craigslist horses - like mine - are rarely taught "calm" as #1.*

And the horse in the video didn't bolt because it never got scared enough. There ARE techniques for dealing with a horse who is likely to bolt, but that video didn't show any.

The best way to handle a potential bolter is not to push them into a bolt. I didn't understand that when I owned Mia, although I was headed that way by the end. Building up their experience gradually, teaching them at each step along the way that you are always with them and they never need be afraid while you are there....THAT is the way to work a bolter.

Since everyone makes mistakes at times, a curb bit or knowing a pulley rein stop can be good. What I tell visitors who ride with us is that if they pry their knees away from the saddle, hang on, don't give up and give the horse slack reins, the horse will finish his bolt before they have done all that! That wasn't true of Mia, but it works for the rest. Most horses don't like bolting.

IMHO. George Morris, a vastly more experienced rider than I, recommends a double twisted wire snaffle bit.


----------



## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

@bsms, you left out the bullock cart story, my favorite story of all time--probably because I own a reactive horse who spooks wildly, with NO warning. We're just riding along happily, (well happily for me, not for my horse-- it's always when the flies are bad), and suddenly he leaps sideways, turns, and bolts. As I said in a previous post, I measured his hoofprints in the sand-- 6 feet sideways. He doesn't spook like that any more (I trained him from a yearling), but bullock cart training was one of the things that helped teach him not to spook, not forcing him to face his fear and push him towards it. Actually what trained him to stop spooking was just working with him and riding him for 11 years, but I fully recognize that AA doesn't want to do that and I don't blame her one bit.

Anyway, the Bullock Cart Story!!!

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img673/6510/e9fvjC.jpg


----------



## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

@bsms, you left out the bullock cart story, my favorite story of all time--probably because I own a reactive horse who spooks wildly, with NO warning. We're just riding along happily, (well happily for me, not for my horse-- it's always when the flies are bad), and suddenly he leaps sideways, turns, and bolts. As I said in a previous post, I measured his hoofprints in the sand-- 6 feet sideways. He doesn't spook like that any more (I trained him from a yearling), but bullock cart training was one of the things that helped teach him not to spook, not forcing him to face his fear and push him towards it. Actually what trained him to stop spooking was just working with him and riding him for 11 years, but I fully recognize that AA doesn't want to do that and I don't blame her one bit.

Anyway, the Bullock Cart Story!!!

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img673/6510/e9fvjC.jpg


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Acadianartist said:


> As long as she was paying more attention to me than her surroundings, she was ok. But if she forgot about me, she tensed up at a tree, at a board, at our pool... this may be part of the solution in riding her.


This took me back three years to my Spook, Spin, Bolt, Stop, Look thread and wanted to comment. Don't know that it will apply, especially since you will be riding a different horse, except that I do think it applies to some extent to all horses.

The advice that I acted on mostly from the thread was to keep Hondo's mind on me, and be certain not to let him go to sleep. Take off through the brush, up a steep bank, ask him to do stuff and not let him get bored or go to sleep and keep his mind on me.

I concentrated on doing this and had great results. But looking back, it has actually segwayed into Me keeping my mind on Hondo. And when I do that, His mind is always on Me! It's like he knows what I'm thinking at all times and if it's not him, he's loose to get himself into trouble.

Start talking on the phone while caring for a small child. I don't need to explain what happens.

It was very discouraging at first. Like, I can't even spend a second looking at something or thinking about something while enjoying a trail ride. But when I do, I'm not there. It's taken a while but now I can think about other things and stuff but I'm always with Hondo when I do. (Secretely) I may even discuss much of it with him. My mind is not gone from him, ever.

I've had some spooks since then, but he stops, and looks, and thinks, before he spins. And the video I've spoken of took out my fear so I did not tense up when he did get scared.

Three years and counting since I've been on the ground, knock on wood. (except for my emergency dismount with the bee)

Now before I started the above, I was seriously considering whether I had made a good decision to start riding as a 72 YO. And on a horse that the owner said was unsafe to ride above a walk. And the only horse on the ranch that had gotten out from under a 32 YO born and raised on the ranch.

My third fall, which was my last and hardest fall, was after I thankfully started wearing a helmet. My bell was rang rather loudly and my right shoulder still hurts some.

I had no option other than Hondo. He was/is my first horse and likely to be my last, well, except maybe Dragon will be mine someday. But he's not even broke to ride.

All this is in no way intended to encourage you in any way to ride Kodak. I just think it is something worth thinking about with any horse.

The quote again from my old cowboy friend:

Harold, just stay loose, keep a leg on each side of the horse, and keep your mind in the middle.

He didn't explain, but my take is to not tense up, humor that if both legs were on the same side I might be in trouble, and most importantly, I think, was keeping my mind in the middle. That's where the horse is. Keeping my mind on the horse.

I may make plak out of that advice.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

knightrider said:


> @bsms, you left out the bullock cart story, my favorite story of all time--probably because I own a reactive horse who spooks wildly, with NO warning. We're just riding along happily, (well happily for me, not for my horse-- it's always when the flies are bad), and suddenly he leaps sideways, turns, and bolts. As I said in a previous post, I measured his hoofprints in the sand-- 6 feet sideways. He doesn't spook like that any more (I trained him from a yearling), but bullock cart training was one of the things that helped teach him not to spook, not forcing him to face his fear and push him towards it. Actually what trained him to stop spooking was just working with him and riding him for 11 years, but I fully recognize that AA doesn't want to do that and I don't blame her one bit.
> 
> Anyway, the Bullock Cart Story!!!
> 
> http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img673/6510/e9fvjC.jpg


This is a fabulous story! 

Do you have an imaginary Bullock Cart Story for those times when I can't for the life of me figure out what is spooking my horse???


----------



## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

@AnitaAnne, there are Pokemans out there that the horses can see. That's what makes them spook so violently.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Again, an experinced rider stopped the horse from bolting to the next county. The rider looks relaxed has a feel for the horse, and is softly asking the horse to continue forward, towards a moving target.

Many years ago when I thought I knew it all, I had a horse bolt on me for over a mile. Not a little boot scooting goofy for 100 yards, but over a mile. I clocked it later.

The horse had no body control or training on it, took the bit and was gone. Very nerve racking to say the least, and open my eyes to my comeuppance that I truly needed.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> Again, an experinced rider stopped the horse from bolting to the next county. The rider looks relaxed has a feel for the horse, and is softly asking the horse to continue forward, towards a moving target.
> 
> Many years ago when I thought I knew it all, I had a horse bolt on me for over a mile. Not a little boot scooting goofy for 100 yards, but over a mile. I clocked it later.
> 
> The horse had no body control or training on it, took the bit and was gone. Very nerve racking to say the least, and open my eyes to my comeuppance that I truly needed.


A mile, wow. 

Yes, if nothing else, Kodak has taught me much. I had ridden out spooks before, on horses from childhood to now. Amazingly, Kodak was the first horse to unseat me. I say amazingly, because I'm no great rider. As a teenager, I had a QH that was terrified of cars and I remember one time a dump truck was coming at us on a country road, full speed ahead. He leaped into a deep ditch and lost a shoe in the process. Somehow I stayed on. I remember being on a trail ride in the Catskill Mts of New York and we met a jogger with his dog. The horse I was on spun around and bolted. I stayed on. I was on a trail ride when the guide saw a colt stuck with forelegs over a fence, back legs on the other side. She tossed me the reins of her horse. My niece was with me and her horse started acting up. I managed to steer all three horses away from the panicked colt. And this was at a time when I hadn't been riding steadily. Harley jigs on trails. I can deal with that. I have even ridden him on the road even though he's not a fan, and given the experience I had as a teen, it terrifies me. 

I have sat out dozens of spooks on Kodak in the last year. I'm tired of it. She has taught me that I'm not looking for a challenge (not that I thought I was...). That I can deal with little things, and can help a horse come along in their training. I can even do some desensitization. After she spooked at bicycles, I put one in the barn, then in the paddock, then I actually rode around on it while she was in the paddock grazing. She started a little, looked at the bicycle in the paddock, then went back to eating grass. Sure, this is rewarding. But with Kodak there will always be another hurdle. She has taught me that I can do these things, but that I prefer a horse that is laid back. 

I can hug Harley, kiss him on the nose, even though it annoys him, he humours me. He's interactive, curious, sociable. Kodak is none of those things. If I'm lucky, she lets me scratch behind her ears. I've learned I like a more relaxed, extroverted horse. I'm grateful to Kodak for allowing me to learn that. She's come to trust me more than she trusts anyone, for which I am also grateful, but there are also limits to her trust that will never go away. 

Sorry, rambling here... but thanks to those who have read my posts and replied. Psychologically, I need to work through this, because it's not how I thought things would go. But the fact that I'm so relieved at the thought that my trainer has a horse for me that will go anywhere, and do anything, confirms that I was on my last nerve with Kodak. Maybe the new horse isn't the one for me. But maybe there's a horse out there that is. And hopefully there's a rider out there for Kodak. She really is an amazing mare, and has taught me a great deal in a year.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Each and every horse has a lesson or six for us. Each and everyone.

I don't think the little roan mare is ugly. A great horse is never ugly.

I wish you the best and hope she is what YOU need at this juncture in your life.

And do not feel bad for hitting the ground. We all have and we all will. I believe, at least for me, my balance is changing as I age (got a few years on you). Getting old ain't for sissies. But just keep on keeping on. Find the right horse for you and just enjoy.

Best of luck!


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

knightrider said:


> @AnitaAnne, there are *Pokemans *out there that the horses can see. That's what makes them spook so violently.


*twitch*

Pokemon. *Po*c*ke*t *Mon*sters. Plural and singular are the same.


----------



## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

I don't blame you at all for considering another horse. All horses have their quirks; you just have to decide which quirks you can deal with.

I remember when I was a teenager and was looking for a horse o replace the one I had outgrown. One I tried was a youngish TB. Apparently, cantering in an arena with other kids and horses was too much for her, and she took off bucking. I hit the dirt, and fortunately had nothing worse than a sore elbow to show for it. I handed the reins back to the BO and saddled up the outgrown horse. My old horse was crazy, but she didn't buck. Bucking is one quirk that I don't deal with. Someone else might, but I'll pass.

Another thing to consider is how much you have learned about buying a horse. It would be much harder to take advantage of today-you than last-year-you. I want to thank you for posting all about Kodak, because I learned a ton. I had your experience in mind when I went to look at Sunny. There were several things I tested that I wouldn't have known to check if it weren't for you. Thank you!

There are good calm horses out there, but they never seem to be there at the perfect time. That's how I ended up with two before my barn is finished. I knew they wouldn't be there later. Be patient. I hope the read roan works out, but give it time. I know you will. You like to over-prepare, just like I do.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thank you @mkmurphy81 . I'm so excited for you and your new horse family. And so happy my experiences could help someone else. Somehow it makes it not in vain. 

Horses are in our blood aren't they? Non-horsey people think we're crazy. But we get it. Kodak was a learning experience for me, but I'm excited aout the next horse that will come into my life, be it the red roan or another one. That doesn't mean I don't care about Kodak. We bonded. I will be carefully watching who rides her. She cannot be treated roughly, but a firm hand is a good thing. I will not let her go to just anyone. 

You're right to jump on a horse that is sold by someone you know and trust. You and your husband have pulled everything together so quickly, and so well, that I just know you will do well. Enjoy!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BSMS, you keep talking about stationery objects, where it might work, just to,let a horse look at something, while that object stays out of the hrose;s immediate flight zone.
Sure, you can have him stand there, or get off and walk a horse up to it, gradually ask him to go closer, but that goes out the window when something the horse is concerned about, comes towards him, entering what he still considers a safety zone, between himself and that object-where he has time to still flee if need be.
If you then don't have some body control on the horse, he will spin and bolt
That video showed what I aimed for-how some body control, calmness by the rider, will prevent that big spin and bolt you had with MIa, and that it is NOT based on going to a bigger bit. You were riding just with your hands-sorry!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The bullock story,interesting as it might be, again has zero application when something a horse is concerned about, comes towards him. It is not the horse going closer, but that object of his concern coming TOWARDS him.
All that bullock story illustrates, is a method of going past something the hrose is concerned about, using an indirect route, or angle, where space allows
You can use that on a trail ride, if you have lots of room to go at an indirect angle, past whatever the horse is worried about. He them himself keeps the distance, where he feels he still has time to flee if needed. That rock, bullock cart, whatever, is not going to come bounding towards him!
However, having had a cow elk come charging out of the trees, when we were riding with our dog, it is that elk who determines distance, and when a horse has that animal come closer then his comfort zone, he will attempt to create that distance himself. The only way you are going to keep some form of control, at least defuse the magnitude of that , 'get the heck out of Dodge, is through some body control.
When Kodak spun and bolted, there was a moving object,(boy and dogs )that she most likely was not completely sure as being familiar family members, so decided on flight
Tell me, BSMS, have you ever been on a horse, not exposed to cattle, had those cattle come running towards you, and then just hoped the horse was going to just stand there, trusting your judgement?
I am going to have some body control, in those incidents, for , 'just in case'.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Smilie said:


> All that bullock story illustrates, is a method of going past something the hrose is concerned about, using an indirect route, or angle, where space allows
> You can use that on a trail ride, if you have lots of room to go at an indirect angle, past whatever the horse is worried about. He them himself keeps the distance, where he feels he still has time to flee if needed. That rock, bullock cart, whatever, is not going to come bounding towards him!


Yea, I can offer an illustration of this from a ride yesterday. On a very narrow mountain trail, with a steep rocky drop to a creek on one side, and a 45degree treed slope on the uphill side. Someone had left a shirt on the side of the trail; a blue shirt T-shirt; what's threatening about that?
You'd have to ask George; he expressed his concern, and wouldn't be swayed by his daddies assurances that it was "Just a Thing". Nothing would do but that we clamber up off of the trail, push thru a clump of conifers, and then slide back down to the trail, well past the deadly object. And he kept a close muley eye on that bothersome shirt, too, I can tell you that.
FWIW, the four horses following us walked calmly past, probably snorting their disdain at Georgies antics. Sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do, I guess


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

george the mule said:


> Yea, I can offer an illustration of this from a ride yesterday. On a very narrow mountain trail, with a steep rocky drop to a creek on one side, and a 45degree treed slope on the uphill side. Someone had left a shirt on the side of the trail; a blue shirt T-shirt; what's threatening about that?
> You'd have to ask George; he expressed his concern, and wouldn't be swayed by his daddies assurances that it was "Just a Thing". Nothing would do but that we clamber up off of the trail, push thru a clump of conifers, and then slide back down to the trail, well past the deadly object. And he kept a close muley eye on that bothersome shirt, too, I can tell you that.
> FWIW, the four horses following us walked calmly past, probably snorting their disdain at Georgies antics. Sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do, I guess


True, often you work with the situation, and chose the best solution.
Once one horse (mule) goes past something and is not 'eaten', his buddies will usually follow.
If I can take a less threatening route by an object of concern< I do so.
However, there are times some trails do not allow that, and where you must keep that implusion of forward,and that is when a horse has to both trust you , and respond to some ingrained body control,to get by that object of concern
I think a horse has to have both that trust,level mind, and some body control, to be really good trail horse.
Kodak, unfortunately has neither, and the OP needs a horse she can enjoy


----------



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

When you have a naturally spooky horse, you have to learn to relax your seat and hands, and have a **** good seat. You have to ride the spook out like it ain't no big deal. THAT is what calms a spooker, the boss hoss aboard gives calmness and safety to the lesser ranking horse. It's the hardest thing to do and potentially dangerous if you don't have a good balanced seat.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> BSMS, you keep talking about stationery objects, where it might work, just to,let a horse look at something, while that object stays out of the hrose;s immediate flight zone....
> 
> ...The bullock story,interesting as it might be, again has zero application when something a horse is concerned about, comes towards him. It is not the horse going closer, but that object of his concern coming TOWARDS him....
> 
> ...That video showed what I aimed for-how some body control, calmness by the rider, will prevent that big spin and bolt you had with MIa, and that it is NOT based on going to a bigger bit. You were riding just with your hands-sorry!


Sorry, Smilie, but you are wrong on all counts.

Yes, going around something obviously works with stationary objects, but the story was NOT just about using that one technique (lateral distance). It is about letting the horse tell you when he is afraid, and letting him work on a compromise that it acceptable to you both. It is about building trust, so that when trust is needed, your Trust Account doesn't come up empty.

Most horses understand "available room". If a motorcycle is coming at me down a 6' wide trail, with cactus on either side, the horse understands that there is limited room to move. Even with Mia, if I could find a SMALL section clear of cactus, barely big enough for her to fit in, I would ask her to go there, and then wait. Having done all we COULD do, she would then wait for the dirt bike to go by without exploding. But if I tried to hold her on the trail regardless of any other option, it could get ugly!

The cart story includes one good technique that often works well, but the horse only detoured as much as room allowed. I see this all the time with Bandit. If we have 50 feet laterally, he may move 40 feet over. Or 20. But if we have 4 feet to move over, he'll move over 3.5 feet. One can only do what one can do.

As for Mia...you weren't even a participant on the many threads I discussed her on while I owned her. Nor can I, in a paragraph, discuss all that went into my decision. Suffice it to say she had learned how to fight a snaffle, and the very act of trying to fight a snaffle elevated her emotions, and a horse cannot distinguish between elevated emotions and fear. Thus every time I used "body control" in a snaffle to make her hold her ground - and I could, and did - she remembered it as justifying her fear. Thus she wasn't able to get calmer.

So...I tried a curb. A curb has a very different action. She treated it like a new experience, and I could teach her what I wanted from scratch. A curb bit is also harder for a horse to evade. Stretching out your nose and trying to get the bit in your teeth doesn't work well with a curb bit.

If I could go back in time, and match the 2012 version of Mia with the 2017 version of bsms, there are many things I would do differently. Some of what I've learned in calming Bandit down would have been very helpful with the 2012 Mia...but the 2017 version of bsms didn't exist in 2012. And frankly, what I tried DID work. Well.

What NEVER worked well with Mia was "body control". She was not and never would be a machine. If you engaged her brain, and convinced her you were right, she'd control her body fine. If you tried a top down approach - Me Tarzan, You Mia - she'd fight. *She didn't believe in The Divine Right of Riders*. Neither do I, now - but it was how I was taught, and it is still preached by many on HF.

I read advice similar to yours many times on HF concerning Mia. Like a lot of "expert advice", it was counterproductive. I'm skeptical of "expert advice" because following it has often led me astray. One of the few experts whose advice HAS worked for me was Tom Roberts.

The "Bullock Cart story" he tells in Horse Control - The Young Horse was the start of genuine improvement in Mia. Not because every potential threat can be handled with lateral space, but because a horse who needs tight reins to control its body is a scared horse, and fear reinforces fear in a nervous type of horse. When I started using SLACK reins while dealing with scary things, and engaging her MIND instead of dominating her body, we started making lasting progress.

Here is something to consider, at least from a western riding perspective: If you cannot ride the horse past on slack reins, the horse has not accepted it is safe. If you need to push the horse past, ready to ride out whatever happens, fighting the horse - some horses WILL fight! And in fighting and resisting, their fear is confirmed.

I realize many horses bred for stock work will just give in. They will give in completely enough that pushing them past works. But it doesn't work with all horses. And if Kodak has lots of experience, and still stresses....maybe Kodak is one of those horses. One who needs to be calmed past things instead of pushed. Maybe she HAS been pushed past things by experienced riders and only had the fear grow. Like Bandit.

Two quotes to consider, from expert riders who have/had more experience than just about anyone on HF:



> With most Thoroughbreds, force simply doesn't work; equestrian tact does. The English call such sensitive horses "high couraged", a characteristic that can be a double-edged sword. No horse will give you more if you can channel his energy in the right direction, but no horse can fight you harder if you abuse him...*Finesse, compromise, and an indirect approach to a problem - "going in through the back door" - will usually get the job done much better than confrontations, force or fights.* - George Morris, The American Jumping Style





> "The impressionability of a horse can be greatly diminished and modified by breaking. Custom establishes mutual confidence between horse and rider. If the animal has not been beaten, or violently forced up to the object of his alarm, and if the presence of his rider reassures him, instead of frightening him, he will soon become steady. It is a sound principle never to flog a horse which is frightened by some external object. We should, on the contrary, try to anticipate or remove the impression by "making much" of the animal.
> 
> I have already said that a horse has but little intelligence. He cannot reason, and has only memory. If he is beaten when an object suddenly comes before him and startles him, he will connect in his mind the object and the punishment. If he again sees the same object, he will expect the same punishment, his fear will become increased, and he will naturally try to escape all the more violently....
> 
> ...My only advice about the management of nervous horses is to give them confidence by "making much of them." *If we see in front of us an object which we know our horse will be afraid of, we should not force him to go up to it. Better let him at first go away from it, and then gently induce him to approach it, without bullying him too much. Work him in this way for several days, as long as may be necessary. Never bring him so close up to the object in question that he will escape or spin round* ; because in this case we will be obliged to punish him ; not for his fear, but on account of his spinning round, which we should not tolerate at any time. In punishing him, we will confuse in his mind the fear of punishment and the fear caused by the object. *In a word, with nervous horses we should use much gentleness, great patience, and no violence.*" (186) - James Fillis, Breaking and Riding, 1890


Mia was a tough horse to learn to ride on. I never really did her justice, but we both tried hard for each other. But I'm glad I didn't learn to ride by riding less challenging horses. My riding position may be defensive, but I was forced to start searching for "back doors". I learned to use finesse when almost all the expert advice I got was to use "body control". Thank God for Mia!


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...Tell me, BSMS, have you ever been on a horse, not exposed to cattle, had those cattle come running towards you, and then just hoped the horse was going to just stand there, trusting your judgement?
> I am going to have some body control, in those incidents, for , 'just in case'.


Not cattle. But dirt bikes. Garbage trucks. And teaching trust HAS worked much better for me than "Body Control". Why? Because horses have minds, and no rider EVER controls a horse's body unless they first capture the mind.

As Etienne Beudant put it:



> "Therefore, everywhere - out-of-doors or in the haute ecole - success with horses is to him who applies this maxim of Baucher...
> 
> '*Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.*'
> 
> ...


If one owns a horse with ample experience AND fear, maybe what was tried in the past didn't work? When you are going down the wrong road, using the accelerator doesn't help. If an experienced horse is still a fearful horse, maybe he (or she) needs a different sort of experience?

'*Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.*'​


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

In the far distant past, when I was a child the accepted training method when a horse was scared was to have the horse face it and walk towards it, and eventually smell and touch the object so the horse could understand it was not an object to fear. 

Years of riding and learning under very experienced clinicians, have taught me that that is not the right approach. One can't show a horse everything that they might see, especially out trail riding. Don't really know of a safe way to approach a bear, for instance! Some things ARE dangerous and the horse is right to be cautious. 

If one rides long enough and studies enough, one will eventually come across someone who says something in just the right way to make sense. That person for me was John Lyons.

What really struck me as golden advice was this: In anything you attempt with a horse, first ask yourself "Is it safe for me?" if yes, then ask yourself "Is it safe for the horse?" if that answer is also yes, then go ahead and do it. 

So the first and most important thing is to make sure it is safe for the rider/handler. Which is why I say there is no shame to getting off and not riding out something that you are unsure of. 

The other person that made a huge impression on me was one of my favorite Dressage instructors. One of the very first things she said to me as I was riding my horse in our very first lesson and he was shying in the corners was, "Doesn't matter, just keep riding" 

By that she meant, ignore the silly stuff, and just keep moving forward. Not like the rider in the video that forced his horse to keep going forward towards the scary object (although that is a good way to teach a horse to chase something - doesn't work on stationary objects at all). 

That is why the advice to act bored and keep on keeping on. A rider that is 100% calm yet 100% RIDING the horse (not just a passenger) can do whatever is needed to relay to the horse that the fearsome object is nothing to be concerned about. 

This is how trust between horse and rider is developed. The horse learns that the rider is watching out for him/her and will let them know how to handle the fearful thing. This is the real definition of a LEADER. A leader doesn't force, they guide. The rider learns to trust the horse after many successful rides where the horse WILLINGLY, without force, does as the rider asks. 

No one can turn a 7/10 horse into a 1/10 horse through any kind of training. But a rider can teach the horse how to trust the rider and become as safe as a ride as a horse can be. This is why Acadianartist feels safe on Harley even though he is a hotter horse and gets "jiggy" at times. Harley has learned trust over the years and willingly does as his rider asks. 

This is what John Lyons meant when he said you can't teach a horse not to be afraid, but you CAN teach him how to spook in place. This is another golden nugget of wisdom I follow.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Not cattle. But dirt bikes. Garbage trucks. And teaching trust HAS worked much better for me than "Body Control". Why? Because horses have minds, and no rider EVER controls a horse's body unless they first capture the mind.
> 
> As Etienne Beudant put it:
> 
> ...


Garbage trucks, dirt bikes, logging trucks, mountain bikes, are all NOT the same as an animal coming towards a horse, and with that horse not sure as to whether that animal is a predator or not
You seem to think that I only ride where there are animals, wilderness, and must live in some back country, removed form cvilization!
Wrong. To ride in wilderness,I must haul there.My everyday riding, is down the road, where traffic comes at me, where there is no shoulder, just a ditch, which is steep at times
Tractors go by, with farm machinery and front end loaders
I have taken horses for demos at Spruce Meadows, rated as the number one showing jumping venue. 
Talk about horses being exposed to stuff-go there, esp if you leave, on the night the fire cracker display is going on, needing to walk your horse tot he far parking lot
Ride in that Parade through the international show ring in the evening, with huge crowds, heavy hitches, bands, show jumpers with stuff draped on them, prancing and dancing, music, announcers, camera men
. 
Now, come ride where there are moose and elk, and see how different that is, to a vehicle coming towards a horse, esp once a horse learns to accept motorized stuff
I ride also where quads and dirt bikes are allowed, not just in prime wilderness
You say body control has no merit, based on your experience with afew horses, while there are many , many great horsemen out there, that work with problem horses, that have trained hundred of horses, find it has merit, but you have to put that body control on a horse, before you need it. It also does not mean you throw that mental conditioning out the window
That very softness, response to a bit, needed to even used body control, or a plain halter, is based on mental conditioning
The two go hand in hand. 
Ride some more horses, in more different places and you might start to see the point!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree with a lot that you have posted above, AnitaAnne
If you read the sticky, on creating a fearless trail horse, by Cheri, it is a general accepted practice by those that do create these solid horses, not to make a horse ride up and sniff everything. In fact, keeping forward motion is a very basic fundamental.
Without being redundant, I think those that have gone down the tangent of how to handle spooks, ect, should read that sticky
After all, Cheri made a living not just training trail horses , but also working with problem horses, making them into reliable hroses. She also worked with different breeds


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/how-we-train-fearless-trail-horse-99776/


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I just pasted her number 3 rule in creating a fearless trail horse, anyone here can read the rest. Certainly Cheri's credentials are solid, and built on vast experience. I wish she was still here to comment.

'NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that. If you do any of these, you are teaching to stop and look or sniff everything instead of go on down the trail. The habit I want to reinforce is to go past or through anything without stopping to look at it. If I tell him it is OK, I want him to accept that without questioning me. You can't have it both ways. He either has to become the leader and figure out everything for himself in his time-frame (for some horses that is never) or he has to let you be the leader. I am convinced that I am smarter and know what I am doing and I know where I want to go and I don't really need or want his opinion at all.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i think this paragraph below , of Cheri's should help with the OP finding a more suitable horse decision;

'Almost' any horse will make a good trail horse. Some super paranoid, exceptionally spooky horses will always need a confident rider, but I have not had a problem making a good trail horse out of anything. I have made good trail horses out of many spoiled horses, but that takes a lot more skill and riding ability than what many people have. Obviously, the nicer the prospect and the better the attitude, the easier it is to make a nice horse for any purpose. We raise our own prospects for their trainability, good minds and easy going nature. We think novice riders should have that kind of horse because they are 'user friendly' and 'low maintenance'. Those are inherited characteristics.

Horses with 'big motors' like TBs and race-bred QHs and high strung horses also require more rider skill, but they cover a lot of ground and are really more suitable to those wanting to do endurance and long hard rides. If you wanted a vehicle to go fishing and hunting in and drive into the back-country, you would not buy a Corvette or a Ferrari would you? Those 'hot' horses make really fast mounted shooting horses and the ones with speed make barrel horses and other timed event horses. They just require a rider with greater skill.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

We can argue with you Smilie, but Cheri is not here so we can't argue with her. Wouldn't be fair. That said, many here do not agree with everything she says, experienced people.

How's she doing anyhow? Do you know if she's got everything put back together?

I had a long phone chat with her way back and really enjoyed it. She's good people.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

So, I was searching the internet for an example of what I was referring to in my previous post and I came across this guy who is simply AMAZING!! He states, and more importantly shows exactly what I was talking about!!! 

I do not know anything about this rider, but I am 100% in agreement with what he is teaching about handling a spook in this video. Fabulous! I am truly excited to find this guy, cause I am always learning too!


----------



## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I don't know Cheri personally and haven't ever "talked" to her off the Forum, but I did get curious about how she and her family were doing awhile ago and visited their website. According to the update there, they are still offering trail rides this summer (Arbuckle Trail Rides ? Trail Rides!) and still have some horses for sale (Trail Horses ? My blog). I can't say anything about how they are doing personally but hope all is well.

@Acadian, if your trainer's horse doesn't work out, it might actually not be all that crazy to connect with her about one of her quarter horses, even factoring in shipping costs.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What I have found with riding in general is that a horse gets its trust from the rider and the rider needs to have confidence. If they have confidence and riding ability, then the horse will rarely spook, spin and run. 

I agree with Smilie in that cattle or sheep, moving towards a horse that has never seen them before, can cause the horse to become tense and ready to run, if you can get those other creatures moving away from the horse then fear disperses. 

There are horses that will always be far more alert than others, they *act* afraid *but* I am sure it is often to see what reaction they get from the rider. If they are whacked for spooking then that will, with this type of horse, make them genuinely frightened. By taking control, using firm aids but no real rider reaction, as in 'oh dear, he's going to spook!' this type will gain more and more confidence and stop the thoughtless reactions. 

Admittedly in the U.K. we don't have bears and big cats, many places do not have deer but we generally do have to ride on the roads and meet with all sorts of vehicles. 

I have had many horses that could be classed as being unsafe because of their lightning reactions. I rode them as I would a less reactive horse but I was always ready for that sideways leap and spin, after a few times of riding them they realised that they weren't going to get around and take off from whence they had come, so, as nothing bad had happened to them they trusted me, their rider that the spooky thing was safe. 

One horse, Bold Impression was over reactive. He was also very bad in traffic which, where we were at the time, was heavy and fast. I was taken into ditches, sideways along hedges, into wire fences and, on one occasion over a 3' wall side ways, and across someone's immaculate lawn and garden before jumping the wall back out! I didn't react just went with the flow. After about a month I could ride him down a fast major road and past anything because he had total confidence in me. He didn't like heavy vehicles and would tense up when they were coming at us but he didn't react. 

BSMS you have had two horses that were/are very spooky, and although they have improved somewhat, they are still not over it so, is it coincidence or lack of belief in the rider?


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

bsms said:


> Most horses understand "available room". If a motorcycle is coming at me down a 6' wide trail, with cactus on either side, the horse understands that there is limited room to move. Even with Mia, if I could find a SMALL section clear of cactus, barely big enough for her to fit in, I would ask her to go there, and then wait. Having done all we COULD do, she would then wait for the dirt bike to go by without exploding. But if I tried to hold her on the trail regardless of any other option, it could get ugly!


Mmmmm, only periphially related to spooking, but in a situation where I am sharing space with people peddling, riding, driving, or otherwise operating a mechanical contrivance, I'm gonna stay right there in the middle of the road/trail until they slow down/stop/acknowledge my presence. I do not want some dumb-f**k on a dirtbike blasting past at full throttle just because there's room to do so. Same with drivers on the street; sorry, but you're just gonna have to wait. (Or run me over, but you'd better do a thorough job of it . . .) And my critters totally agree on this one. Look at those "share-the-trail" signs; who has the ultimate right-of-way?

I would much rather simply avoid these situations, but that's just not always possible.



Smilie said:


> I just pasted her number 3 rule in creating a fearless trail horse, anyone here can read the rest. Certainly Cheri's credentials are solid, and built on vast experience. I wish she was still here to comment.
> 
> 'NEVER let a horse look at things, examine things, go up to new things, 'sniff'' things or any of that. If you do any of these, you are teaching to stop and look or sniff everything instead of go on down the trail. The habit I want to reinforce is to go past or through anything without stopping to look at it. If I tell him it is OK, I want him to accept that without questioning me. You can't have it both ways. He either has to become the leader and figure out everything for himself in his time-frame (for some horses that is never) or he has to let you be the leader. I am convinced that I am smarter and know what I am doing and I know where I want to go and I don't really need or want his opinion at all.


Yea, I've heard that theory, and I guess it's fine if you want a machine rather than a willing sentient partner on the trail. Or perhaps a war-horse that will charge into cannon-fire. Can you say "Does Not Apply"?

Mine know that they can express their opinion, and that I will take it into consideration. Most of the time, if His Muleness signals an "Alert", there _is_ a reason. My previous post, the off-trail excursion was Georgies idea; I would have asked him to scoot over and let the other riders pass, and then simply followed them past the scary object. He crafted an acceptable mulish solution before I had to worry about it: "Sit Down, Shut Up, Hold On!" :-D The others passed the shirt on the trail, BTW, laughing at George's discomfiture. All in all, a non-event, only mentioned it because it was a good example of simply going around.

Steve


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

We have been over the entire input , before, and so will elaborate.
I also will listen to my hrose, if I am not sure of a situation, and I believe Cheri was talking of the other case,, or ,when you are sure of a situation, applying her rule, far as a horse then needing to trust your judgement
In other words, if I know that dark shape up ahead , on a trail, is a rock, and not a bear,assure my horse with both my body language and aids, that I have decided the the object is not a threat, I expect my horse to have both the trust and respect to accept my judgement, and proceed, versus perhaps trying to go around it, even over the edge of a drop off
If I know there is perfectly safe bottom to a mud hole, ask my horse to go through the middle of it, versus trying to walk along one of the banks, running my leg into a tree, slipping and sliding on that clay bank, in danger of going down, I expect the horse to not question me.
On the other hand,, if I am riding in bear country, in thick willows, and my horse indicates there might be danger ahead, I listen to his input.
Perhaps Cheri might have explained her stance a bit clearer, as I expected exactly your reply, George, which I agree with, far as not wishing to ride a machine, tot he point ahrose will even walk off a cliff, on auto piolet.
I know I am perhaps taking a bit of liberty, far as elaborating on Cheri's post, but it is a no brainer, to me anyways, that if you yourself are not sure of something, you don't ignore the input from your horse
Going around is okay, if I indicate to the hrose to do so, esp passing something I know is no threat, but not okay, if the horse decides to take me around, perhaps running my legs against trees, my head against some low branches, or even going down, as that route around that non dangerous object has treacherous footing
There is one place on a trail we ride, where that old reclaimed road has a big long mud hole, and off tot he side is a little narrow grassy trail going through the trees. First time I rode that trail, not knowing that the mud hole had a perfectly good solid bottom, just not visible, I let the horse I was riding, chose that trail going around it, through the trees. Well, that little trail had a major bog hole, and my horse sank to his belly
Not either of our fault, as I listened to my horse;s choice, not being sure myself. After that time, though, knowing that trail, I expected every horse i rode down it to trusts my judgement and go through that mud hole. You have to apply rules in perspective.
Kinda like one would think the warning that a hot cut of coffee can burn, if spilled, should be common sense, versus needing a label applied on that cup of coffee!


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Smilie said:


> <Large snip>You have to apply rules in perspective.


Yes, this is so true. "Absolutes" are just so much more . . . convenient


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> So, I was searching the internet for an example of what I was referring to in my previous post and I came across this guy who is simply AMAZING!! He states, and more importantly shows exactly what I was talking about!!!
> 
> I do not know anything about this rider, but I am 100% in agreement with what he is teaching about handling a spook in this video. Fabulous! I am truly excited to find this guy, cause I am always learning too!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QOWLhK6aR0


Thanks! I've watched videos by this guy before. Honestly, I wasn't really finding it all that useful until it got to the very end. The idea of getting off to walk your horse past something unfamiliar is fine in an arena, but impractical on a trail. Especially when it's something that moves. 

However, at minute 9, his horse spooks and he just keeps it moving. He also made a very insightful comment about how if he had tensed up and pulled back on the reins, the horse would have just spooked worse. I know this is accurate, because this is what I do! And yes, I KNOW it makes it worse. But it's an instinctive reaction. I don't have time to think, and so I just react. I get that this is the wrong thing to do. But how does one change something that is so instinctive? And it's likely going to be even worse now that I had a bad fall. 

I'm actually getting antsy to ride Kodak again. My headaches and stiff neck have been gone for two days now. If I don't have any more symptoms for a week, I can ride again. My hips and pelvis are still sore, but that should be better in a few more days. I must be crazy to want to get on her, but I feel like I have to do this. It doesn't mean I want to keep her, but I feel we both have to get over this. We'll just start with a short ride in the paddock. And tomorrow maybe I'll lead her through the trail where she spooked. I led her around the property last night, but when we got near the woods where the trail starts, my heart started beating faster, I started taking shorter breaths... crazy huh? Thinking I'll do some yoga to get my brain centered and practice some breathing exercises. I never knew I could be this anxious. That's the thing about horses... they force you to face things in yourself that maybe you'd rather pretend aren't there.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Acadianartist said:


> I led her around the property last night, but when we got near the woods where the trail starts, my heart started beating faster, I started taking shorter breaths... crazy huh? Thinking I'll do some yoga to get my brain centered and practice some breathing exercises. I never knew I could be this anxious. That's the thing about horses... they force you to face things in yourself that maybe you'd rather pretend aren't there.


No, not crazy; a normal reaction, and just what I was talking about. You can be assured that Kodak picked up on it as well.
Have a couple drinks before you take her out again. Seriously


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Thinking......they say to be aware of your horse's emotional state at all times, I'm thinking that it may be as important or maybe even more to be aware of our own emotional state at all times.

The guy in the video used to be on CRK training with ( Kelly, Calle, forgot the sp.). They must have split up for some reason. I'm subscribed to CRK's videos that come out once in awhile.

I know Hondo well enough now, and he knows me well enough, that with concentration and visualization, I suspect I could make him spook anytime anywhere.

I laughed at the Sit Down, Shut Up, and Hold On remark. Caused me to recall one of the most elating rides ever on Hondo. I not only shut up, I doubt I even breathed until it was over. My only concern, stay balanced and keep as much slack in the reins as possible without dropping them. Do nothing to distract him!

Not sure about the drinks. My second fall was the only time I ever rode Hondo after a drink. The 32 YO gal on the ranch that he got out from under had a drink in one hand when he side stepped out from under her. She is a good rider too.

It may just be Hondo, but his attitude seems to be, "If yer gonna climb up on me you better be teetotaling". I guess some horses are like that?


----------



## weeedlady (Jul 19, 2014)

tongue in cheek comment...Raven has been much calmer since I started taking Prozac. 

I say it as a joke, but it is true.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Thank you! I rarely laugh out loud while looking at my computer screen. 

Edit: I'm still laughing. Maybe George was right.

Got a problem with your horse? Take some prozac. Horse will be fine.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Hondo said:


> Thank you! I rarely laugh out loud while looking at my computer screen.
> 
> Edit: I'm still laughing. Maybe George was right.
> 
> Got a problem with your horse? Take some prozac. Horse will be fine.


That makes two of us. I'm thinking the drink is not such a bad idea. Maybe she'll spook and I'll be like "meh... whatever."


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Quote Hondo: "Got a problem with your horse? Take some prozac. Horse will be fine."

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Acadianartist said:


> That makes two of us. I'm thinking the drink is not such a bad idea. Maybe she'll spook and I'll be like "meh... whatever."


AA, that's just where you wanna be. Call 'em your "inner zero". Google "Limbic Resonance" sometime.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Nothing wrong with one drink, as it will relax you, and you just can't always think, or wish yourself into a relaxed state. 
Not suggesting a re enactment of Cat Balou, but if a Magnesium supplement calms your horse, what is wrong with a little relaxant for the rider also at times??
Far as that video, the basic concept of keeping forward, working the horse more actively when he is being looky, is the most value I saw in that video
Far as trail riding, I still think the videos by Larry trocha are more helpful


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Even those who don't like CA< I think this video is really good, esp at explaining hroses that are calm in arenas and basket cases outside of it
By the way, the horse that is the subject is a TB


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)




----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Prozac - best idea yet :cheers:

I have gotten off a horse more than once on the trail; my problem is usually getting back on, lol. Where is a handy log when you need one...

Keep in mind this guy is an eventer, all his riding is not done in an arena, although arena work certainly does help to build confidence. 

At 345: (At Level one) give the horse the option to go somewhere, so he doesn't feel trapped. Reminds me of the bulcart story

at 639: the golden rule, if the horse hasn't seen something before, its acceptable to look but no more than that 

Listen closely starting at 710...the cause of most spooky horses; unconfident riders. 

He then clearly states and shows how to sit confidently and how to ride past the object without allowing the horse to spook. He tells the horse to just "go on" (level two) 

Also suggests for training that you make a habit of leaving stuff out of place, so the horse learns things change. 

Yes the horse does a big spook at 900; but he had been making little objections earlier but they were hard to see (except for the little bucks of course). 

The overall idea is not to ride towards the scary object, but to "give the horse a job" and continue to ride while ignoring the object.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

One winter a woman asked me to ride her horses as she was injured. This woman was an experienced rider. She had show jumped at national level, the horses were home bred. 

I was shocked at their lack of manners and spookiness. Both horses bucked for the fun of it and believe me, both could buck hard. The icing on top was when she told me I couldn't ride them out of the field on a Tuesday because the dust cart was in town collecting garbage. 


I don't know who was the most shocked, her or the horses as I played 'find the garbage truck' every Tuesday. Those horses soon became so fed up with following the garbage truck that they took no notice of it at all, no hitting them, no temper tantrums from me just an absolute determination that they were goi g to ride close to it in a relaxed manner. 


As for having a drink - why do you think people riding to hounds have a stirrup cup (or several) before the start of a hunt?


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> One winter a woman asked me to ride her horses as she was injured. This woman was an experienced rider. She had show jumped at national level, the horses were home bred.
> 
> I was shocked at their lack of manners and spookiness. Both horses bucked for the fun of it and believe me, both could buck hard. The icing on top was when she told me I couldn't ride them out of the field on a Tuesday because the dust cart was in town collecting garbage.
> 
> ...


Reminds me of when I worked in the high desert. People, usually newly moved up to the desert for its 'horse friendly' environment, would call up hysterical because a demon dirt bike rider had ridden his bike out in the desert and the sound scared Pookie. They were stunned when my answer was to tell them to have the dirt bike riders bring their bikes up close and let Pookie sniff them over, listen to the engines idle, have the riders circle around Pookie and rev the engines. Then tell them to to out in the desert and play Hide N Seek with the dirt bikes, so that Pookie got over the surprise of a dirt bike just appearing on the trail. They thought I was going to go out and shoot all the motorcycle riders in the desert (who were not breaking any laws btw) just so Pookie could stand in his corral, wrapped in padding, and silence. The idea of actually EXPOSING Pookie to the scary thing was just so not on their radar........SMH. 

I needed a stirrup cup or 3 to face those calls.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have found many an Arab or half Arab to be the best at spooking. 

One, at my first riding school, a half Arab, would happily be cantering along a track he knew and suddenly stop dead to read a signpost just to see if you were paying as much attention as he was.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

This is rather funny. On another forum a person suggested to the OP to have a beer or two. Well, you would have thought the poster making the suggestion dropped THAT bomb in the meeting of an old fashion temperance meeting. And the poster was bullied because she was trying to make the OP into a raging alcoholic.

The irony of life.

Oh, and I am all for a cup or two.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> As long as she was paying more attention to me than her surroundings, she was ok. But if she forgot about me, she tensed up at a tree, at a board, at our pool... this may be part of the solution in riding her. She cannot really be left to think about things too much, or she will find a reason to spook.


Yup. This is what I had to do with Red to crack him of his bolting problem. The instant he took focus onto another object, I was getting his attention back on me NOW; whether it was giving me his nose, backing up, serpentines, circles, sidepassing, etc. If he had his attention on me, he couldn't possibly bolt because he wasn't paying attention to the scary object. 

Same goes for the original situation with Kodak. When your son came around the corner, I would have instantly started making her do something so that she would focus on me. And honestly, I would have totally ignored your son -- don't holler to him or anything. If you pretend he's not there, Kodak should follow suit. 

You are on the right track. Give her chances to relax and go along on her own, but once she starts getting worried, put her back to work immediately.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> I have gotten off a horse more than once on the trail; my problem is usually getting back on, lol. Where is a handy log when you need one...


This is WAY way off topic but have been wanting to mention. I had a problem mounting from the ground at one point and I bought the stool below. I cut the bottom out of a drink holder on my pommel and carried it there. It's only 10 inches high but really helps and doesn't take that long to pull up and stow.

Easy-Mount Step Stool in Accessories for Trail Riding at Schneider Saddlery


----------



## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

@Acadianartist I have been off the forum for a few days and not read all of the posts. I am just here to say that I am glad you are feeling a little better and glad that desire is there to ride again.

Falling off is scary and life changing. All of the advice and video clips in the world will not replace the confidence you were feeling with Kodak. I just want you to know that what happened to you has happened to many of us - of all riding experience levels - and for different reasons. Be proud of yourself that you got back up and are thinking of getting back on- because getting back on is always the hardest part.

And from my own experience as a trail rider - I will say that no amount of riding or arena work ever prepares a rider or horse for everything on the trail. EVER! horses shy for different reasons and at different times. There is no such thing as a bomb proof horse. Just recently @mmshiro posted a video of an unplanned dismount from his horse. And I am sure that horse has cantered that trail many times. falling is part of riding - and I am so sorry that your fall caused you harm. And I am so happy that you are fine and not put off horses for good.

Sending healing thoughts your way........


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

carshon said:


> And from my own experience as a trail rider - I will say that no amount of riding or arena work ever prepares a rider or horse for everything on the trail. EVER! horses shy for different reasons and at different times. There is no such thing as a bomb proof horse.


This. ↑↑↑

The best you can hope for is to prepare yourself.

I will comment that times I have been dumped were largely because I was caught day-dreaming. If you are mentally there with your horse, you can usually detect something coming, and act to defuse the situation. Even if/when that fails, you are forewarned, and far more likely to stay in the saddle thru whatever transpires.

Om  Steve


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

carshon said:


> Just recently @mmshiro posted a video of an unplanned dismount from his horse.


Yup, and I had another one since then. I rode a greenie on his second ever trail ride. That one was a spook a minute (he gave me a little bolt when I reached for his ear to get a fly off about ten minutes into the ride), but it's not the reason why I fell. We were cantering up a curvy, uphill dirt road - he has a very nice canter, and I was focused, yet confident. However, he didn't like the eroded part, with the exposed rocks down the center, so he hopped from side to side to find the best footing. In the process of keeping my balance, I must have been too heavy on the stirrups and my saddle went sideways on him; by the time I noticed, it was too late. Not so good for me, good lesson for him: He waited for me, let me catch him, and we finished the ride without further incident.

Personally, I think it's the unexpected spook from the trusty steed that'll get you. Again, with the above horse, we had a little arena lesson. I tried to turn him into a clockwise circle at the trot (after he did a nice counter-clockwise one), and as the sun got behind us, he spooked at our shadow. That one surprised me - but as I was ready for it as I switched the exercise to desensitization (ride him back and forth so he'd see our shadow appear in front of him with either eye), it wasn't a big deal anymore.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I just came in after working Kodak hard on the lunge line. 

Let me back up... last night, we got ready to load the horses to go to my daughter's coach's place for the week. She is having a horse camp, and we were planning on sending Harley anyway (my daughter is attending, obviously) so she offered to take Kodak and see if some of her advanced students - or even herself - could put a few rides on her. Kodak loaded fine when we bought her, so I was hoping for the best. It was a disaster. I know, I know... I shouldn't be surprised. We almost got her in at one point, but she exploded backwards. After she did that several times, I loaded Harley, thinking that if he was already in, she'd be more likely to walk on. Nope. Good old Harley though, he willingly walked right into the trailer! I think he figured Kodak was coming too, so he didn't mind loading. But even after that Kodak wouldn't load, and kept pulling back hard (I have the rope burns to prove it). The final straw was when we had her forelegs on the ramp, and I tried the lunge line behind the butt trick. She reared. Right in the opening of the trailer. At that point, I felt it was getting dangerous, and Harley was getting worked up in the trailer, so I called it quits. And yes, I know, I just trained her not to load in a trailer. You don't have to tell me. But there comes a time when the safety of the people (my 12 year old!) and animals come first. I will have to do some trailer training with her, clearly, but that was not the time. We will do some ground work first, then when I have the trailer for a day, we'll practice loading and unloading. But I don't know how you load a horse that can't tie solid and pulls back. Anyway, I may just bring in my trainer to see if she can fix this, because I don't feel competent enough to do so.

So, back to now. I find she is getting worse by the day. She has my number now, and is just acting up. She even freaks when I put her halter on - or remove it, for that matter. She jumped sideways when I touched her. Right now, she's even more on edge because Harley's not here and it's a windy morning. Too FREAKING bad, I was going to make her work. She clearly has no respect for me, so that has to change, and I might as well start on the ground. 

She's not a great lunger, as I've posted before, but I REALLY got after her. Made her walk/trot, and that was fine. She stopped a couple of times in the trot, and did her trick of spinning around suddenly to face me. I RAN up to her and cracked the whip to get her moving again. Even if we weren't on the circle anymore, she has to keep moving until I tell her she can stop. At one point, she saw something in the woods and sort of half-startled so I went after her hard again to keep moving forward, until she was too busy worrying about the crazy yelling chick with her arms waving to worry about some bird in a tree. Then I asked her to canter, which always gets her worked up. She doesn't like to canter on the lunge line, but then again, she doesn't do it very well under saddle either. Will go one way, but not the other, will ignore my cues to turn, etc. etc. The first two tries were pretty bad. Lots of head tossing, inconsistent speed, not being far out enough in the circle. She did stop a couple of times, and I had to regroup and gather up the long line, but I got her going again. Then finally, she did a perfect canter. A nice, slow, controlled lopey one. After a few circles, we stopped there to end on a positive note and so she understands that this is what I want. 

She was still acting batty afterwards, but I plan on doing this every day, and adding trail walks. 

This does not mean I'm not selling her. Just that she will only get worse if I just let her be a pasture pet. But again... this behavior is so weird. She's a different horse than she was in the fall/winter/spring. She's exactly the same as when I brought her home last summer though. Thinking I'll put her on Gastroguard and maybe treat her for ulcers, though it will have to wait until my next paycheck since all this trailering and sending my daughter and her horse to camp is killing my pocketbook. I can't see how ulcers could cause a horse to be this spooky, but regardless, it's probably a good idea.


----------



## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Couple questions?

Do you know if shes deficient in magnesium? Have you ever tried a magnesium supplement? It can be very calming for horses that are on edge.

Does the vet know about this sudden change? Not sure if you have lyme disease in Canada much but some of it sounds a LOT like my last horse...Has vet checked her out and given her a clean bill of health?

Sorry you had the trouble, I think its great you're trying to work with her but maybe its time to take a step back and make sure its not some type of pain issue (ulcers? Lyme? Something?) causing it? Have you checked her back for pain?


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Did you ever get her tested for Lyme Disease?
You're right next to Maine and the New England states that are full of the ticks that carry it so can't see why you wouldn't be the same.
Her extreme over reactive behavior, the change in her behavior and that rather tense stiff look about her in some of those photos would make me suspicious.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Did you ever get her tested for Lyme Disease?
> You're right next to Maine and the New England states that are full of the ticks that carry it so can't see why you wouldn't be the same.
> Her extreme over reactive behavior, the change in her behavior and that rather tense stiff look about her in some of those photos would make me suspicious.


No, she has not been tested for Lyme. I'll ask my vet. Lyme is present in our area, though it's not exactly prevalent, but certainly not impossible. Honestly, working with this morning made me think there is something seriously wrong with her brain. 
@*evilamc* she has been on magnesium for a long time now. And every calming supplement I could get my hands on. To no effect. Perhaps not so coincidentally, when the vet came to float her teeth, he had the hardest time sedating her. He had to go back and give her about 3 more shots of tranq. Harley is such a cheap drunk, the vet was shocked at how much he had to give Kodak because she's the same size as Harley, but she fought it every inch of the way. He had to give her the same amount he'd give a large draft horse. 

As for ulcers, I've already said I plan on treating her for them. I'll get my vet to prepare a 30 day treatment. No point in scoping for them, since they're not always visible and scoping is almost as expensive as just treating. 
Anything else I can have her tested for while I have the vet draw blood for Lyme (I assume it's a blood test...)?


----------



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Anything else I can have her tested for while I have the vet draw blood for Lyme (I assume it's a blood test...)?


Have the blood sent to cornell for the multiplex.. the snap tests are not nearly as accurate. i know you are in canada, but make sure the full test is done (not sure if canada has a lab accredited to do that test or not).

if ticks are in issue in your area, you can ask your vet about running a full tick panel. there are some other nasty things they can transmit, though behavior changes are generally associated with lyme.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Just read this (below). Kodak has none of the symptoms of Lyme disease except for changes in behavior, but that could be anything. She's not sensitive to touch if she sees me coming, but if I touch her while she's staring at something else, she can jump. She has no stiffness, lameness, arthritic changes, fever, lethargy... she's been seen by the vet recently and has been treated by an equine massage therapist. She spooks on the ground, under saddle, in the pasture... so back pain is unlikely. 

Symptoms of Lyme in horses:



stiffness/lameness
muscle tenderness
hyperaesthesia (increased or altered sensitivity to sensory stimuli)
resentment of touch or pressure
swollen joints (rare)
behavioral changes
Fever and edema are unlikely (more likely a result of Anaplasma phagocytophilia infection, or a dual infection)
Unwillingness to work, lethargic, “grumpy (Lyme Disease in Horses)


----------



## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Maybe even just test for lyme before starting the ulcer treatment? Lyme is a blood test yes. Maybe rule out one thing before just starting to treat for something that she possibly has ya know? Because if it IS lyme and not ulcers that would save a lot of money on ulcer treatment!

Thats a shame the calming supplements do not help any  Have you been able to try magrestore yet? I know quite a few people have seen much better results with it then other supplements.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Also, Kodak was like this when I got her last summer. She got better in the fall and winter. Now she's falling apart again. Could be a coincidence, I suppose, but I'm not so sure.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

evilamc said:


> Thats a shame the calming supplements do not help any  Have you been able to try magrestore yet? I know quite a few people have seen much better results with it then other supplements.


Yes, have used Magrestore.


----------



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Lyme is tricky. 

My mare was still doing 50 and 100 mile rides while having a _raging_ case of it.. and the only signs she gave me were some slight muscle loss along her topline and moving a bit different going downhill. She passed countless lameness exams, etc.. it was only for lack of anything else to test for that made me send the blood for the test.

I can give you multiple other examples just in my herd of Lyme that doesn't fit the box.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Horses don't present with all of the symptoms but changes in behavior, especially that highly reactive and unpredictable type are common. Its a similar 'disease to syphilis so often causes neurological problems 
I recently had a horse test positive for it - she had no skin sensitivity or unsoundness issues as some do but she had started to over react to silly things which was out of character for her and seemed very tense.
She finished the course of treatment a few weeks ago and already back to her normal self


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Horses don't present with all of the symptoms but changes in behavior, especially that highly reactive and unpredictable type are common. Its a similar 'disease to syphilis so often causes neurological problems
> I recently had a horse test positive for it - she had no skin sensitivity or unsoundness issues as some do but she had started to over react to silly things which was out of character for her and seemed very tense.
> She finished the course of treatment a few weeks ago and already back to her normal self


Ok, good to know! I will do the test then. I wish it was something this simple. My feeling is that it's not, but I hope I'm wrong. Worth it just to rule things out anyway. We certainly do have ticks, and I know at least one dog and one person who contracted Lyme in this area.


----------



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Ok, good to know! I will do the test then. I wish it was something this simple. My feeling is that it's not, but I hope I'm wrong. Worth it just to rule things out anyway. We certainly do have ticks, and I know at least one dog and one person who contracted Lyme in this area.


It may not be the answer. And treating Lyme in some cases is not simple either. But its at least somewhere to start. And good information for her buyer one way or the other when you find that person up the road.


----------



## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Ok, good to know! I will do the test then. I wish it was something this simple. My feeling is that it's not, but I hope I'm wrong. Worth it just to rule things out anyway. We certainly do have ticks, and I know at least one dog and one person who contracted Lyme in this area.


Also she could possibly have had it since last summer and the symptoms and how its affecting her have just been progressing. Glad you'll get it checked out! I was so excited when I moved 6 hours away from where I was living (like literally 1-3 horses contracted lyme)...only to get here and find out it has been spreading here and getting more and more common every year  Sadly a lot is still unknown about it and it likes to morph so every horse can show different symptoms. Like Jaydee said though the change and behavior and being so over-reactive are usually big signs.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

phantomhorse13 said:


> It may not be the answer. And treating Lyme in some cases is not simple either. But its at least somewhere to start. And good information for her buyer one way or the other when you find that person up the road.


Precisely. My instinct tells me it will be negative, but I've been wrong before. Very rarely, but it does happen. :grin::grin::grin:

And yes, I know treatment is sometimes complicated. Better to know than not though. Will call the vet tomorrow and set up an appointment. Today's a holiday here, so everything is closed. Should be fun trying to draw blood from Kodak. I think I'll just hold her on a lead rope in the paddock rather than do it in a confined space.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> Precisely. My instinct tells me it will be negative, but I've been wrong before. Very rarely, but it does happen. :grin::grin::grin:
> 
> And yes, I know treatment is sometimes complicated. Better to know than not though. Will call the vet tomorrow and set up an appointment. Today's a holiday here, so everything is closed. Should be fun trying to draw blood from Kodak. I think I'll just hold her on a lead rope in the paddock rather than do it in a confined space.


"Should be fun to draw blood from Kodak"---- you should not even BE there, thinking like that. The poor vet. No wonder the horse won"t load, spooks, bolts, etc. Sorry, but there is your reason, right there.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> I have found many an Arab or half Arab to be the best at spooking.
> 
> One, at my first riding school, a half Arab, would happily be cantering along a track he knew and suddenly stop dead to read a signpost just to see if you were paying as much attention as he was.


This is the thing with Arabs, they want you to know about all potential dangers, if you can respond with "ok thanks for letting me know" then they are often happy.



sarahfromsc said:


> This is rather funny. On another forum a person suggested to the OP to have a beer or two. Well, you would have thought the poster making the suggestion dropped THAT bomb in the meeting of an old fashion temperance meeting. And the poster was bullied because she was trying to make the OP into a raging alcoholic.
> 
> The irony of life.
> 
> Oh, and I am all for a cup or two.


That was hilarious...I've had a Dressage judge suggest it, because she used to do the same.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

greentree said:


> "Should be fun to draw blood from Kodak"---- you should not even BE there, thinking like that. The poor vet. No wonder the horse won"t load, spooks, bolts, etc. Sorry, but there is your reason, right there.


I have been there many times and helped the vet and the trimmer do whatever they need to do. I have held Kodak while the vet drew blood before, and it was fine. She was fine. Only now, she is not. She is a different horse. Am I apprehensive? Of course! This is self-preservation. 

And for your information, my vet and my trimmer love working on my horses because they are normally extremely well-behaved. I don't know what's going on with Kodak right now, but I'm not just letting her get away with it. I'm doing groundwork, lunging, interacting with her as much as possible. 

So please, don't judge if you don't know.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I am not judging, you are looking for answers, and to me, this is the most obvious. Your apprehension is contagious.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

```

```



greentree said:


> "Should be fun to draw blood from Kodak"---- you should not even BE there, thinking like that. The poor vet. No wonder the horse won"t load, spooks, bolts, etc. Sorry, but there is your reason, right there.


It is really hard to move from that mindset, but unless you can, then you will never get further forward. It is one of the many lessons Fergie has taught me, don't anticipate trouble.....but do prepare for it.

I would never try and load any horse without gloves and good boots on, and with a horse like yours a helmet as well. Having worked with many bad loaders I realized that my attitude of expecting trouble would manifest into having trouble. Not saying it is a cure, but it is at least 50% of the problem in a lot of cases.

Have you drawn blood from her before? What is your actual experience? 

When it comes time to do it, will you be holding her tightly so she can't spook, going "oh my god, stand still, I know it's scary, please be good" or will you start of calm and relaxed, with a little slack in her rope, everything about your body language saying "this is no big deal, you'll be fine" while being ready to take control if needed?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

You've heard the saying "You get the horse you expect," right? Everything I've seen you post has been that you're expecting a fight from Kodak or you're expecting her to misbehave. Your post about loading her on the trailer, one of the first things you said was "I just hoped for the best." 

My gelding has been on a trailer exactly five times in his eight years of life. The first was in an open stock trailer coming to Arizona from Canada as a weanling. The others have been when we moved barns after I bought him. The last time he was trailered, I wasn't even there. My BO and her husband loaded him to move him to the new property they had just bought. My BO's husband loaded him, which was amazing in itself because they don't like each other. My BO said he just hopped right on the trailer like it was old hat. I asked her husband what his secret was and he said "I told him to do it and he did." He got the horse he expected. 

I know my gelding doesn't trust farriers. I still expect him to act like a civilized creature with manners when the farrier comes out. I get the horse I expect.

I get what greentree is saying. Your attitude that there is going to be a rodeo might be a detriment to the vet trying to work on Kodak. Until such time as you figure out what is wrong with her (if anything other than she has your number), maybe you should take a step back from handling her in situations that could endanger other people, like the vet.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> It is really hard to move from that mindset, but unless you can, then you will never get further forward. It is one of the many lessons Fergie has taught me, don't anticipate trouble.....but do prepare for it.
> 
> I would never try and load any horse without gloves and good boots on, and with a horse like yours a helmet as well. Having worked with many bad loaders I realized that my attitude of expecting trouble would manifest into having trouble. Not saying it is a cure, but it is at least 50% of the problem in a lot of cases.
> 
> ...


Yes, the problem is that I wasn't apprehensive before because I had no reason to be! We had many a happy, pleasant trail ride until just a few weeks ago (which I describe in many previous posts). 

I just said in a previous post that I have helped the vet draw blood before and it was fine! No problem whatsoever. Last time he was here, in the spring, he even commented on how much Kodak had progressed since I got her. She was totally laid back with him. She's NOT now. 

As for holding her tight and begging her not to spook - really? I'm not a total moron! I'm just saying that it would be safest to do it in an open area where she doesn't feel threatened. Given that the last couple of times I've tied her, she's pulled back hard, I don't think the cross-ties are a good idea at the moment. She will stand quietly in the paddock, even ground-tie for several minutes while I walk around setting up poles. This is just a calmer environment for her. Because I DO care about my vet, and I DO want to set us up for success, I think this is the safest approach.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Because I'm tired of repeating myself, I'm just going to ask everyone to read all my replies before posting more of the same advice. I've said over and over again that Kodak and I have come a long way. That we had no issues at all last fall, winter, and spring. My apprehension did not cause this behavior. It started a few weeks ago out of the blue. I didn't suddenly get apprehensive. But I sure am now! 

Maybe time for me to take another break from HF... too bad because there is great advice in here. But this thread has gone off the rails again. So I'm checking out for now. Thank you to those who offered useful advice.


----------



## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I'd like to fourth or fifth the testing for Lyme. After two months of my horse acting not like herself, last week she came back positive for chronic Lyme. Her symptoms didn't perfectly match that list either, but the most obvious was a big behavior change: my normally "point her anywhere" horse suddenly started bolting sideways when I tried to ride her out to our trails. I just got home from watching the vet push a massive syringe of IV-antibiotics into her, and I am very hopeful she's on the road to feeling better. If you feel like reading about it, I've been writing about it in my journal (getting to the bottom of the behavioral stuff sort of starts around this point in the thread).

You might also spend some time reading through (MODERATOR NOTE: Link Removed as it is agains rules to link to other forums)- seems like a lot of people have experienced that chronic Lyme gets better or worse seasonally, or that you treat an acute infection and deal with a chronic flare-up, or treat a chronic case only to have an acute re-infection. Just hard to say all the different ways it can play out.

Like @*phantomhorse13* said though, the Cornell multiplex is definitely the way to go with testing. 

I can't remember, have you had her tested for EPM too? I have no personal experience with it, but from what I gather after talking to lots of horse people is that unexplained changes in behavior tend to eventually lead folks to either blood tests for Lyme or EPM, or going right to a cycle of ulcer treatment. If one of those isn't the answer, they move on to other possibilities. I'm not saying you need to or want to get to the bottom of what's going on with Kodak, but if you do want to look into a physical reason, I think it's going to require some methodical detective work, which can be slow and frustrating.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> She was totally laid back with him. She's NOT now.
> 
> As for holding her tight and begging her not to spook - really? I'm not a total moron!


She was totally laid back with him, so why isn't she now? Are you looking for her to be bad, or is there another time when she was bad with him? 

I NEVER called you a moron, I never suggested or thought it, so that is in your own head. It was merely a thought based on everything I have read here, looking at the pictures of you riding, and relating it to my own learning and experience, no need to insult someone who is offering advice.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> I have found many an Arab or half Arab to be the best at spooking.
> 
> One, at my first riding school, a half Arab, would happily be cantering along a track he knew and suddenly stop dead to read a signpost just to see if you were paying as much attention as he was.


I think Arabs like to make sure you are participating in the ride. I call them the little check ups to see if I am still in the now.


----------



## 3Horses2DogsandaCat (Apr 19, 2016)

I see that you have had a few suggestions to test for Lyme. Another suggestion is EPM. I don't know if it is a concern in your area, but it completely changed my horse's demeanor. He didn't have the obvious awkwardness or weakness that I would expect from EPM, but he became extremely sensitive to the touch and almost dangerous during grooming times. He also began rearing while being led, and he became more spooky and aggressive. It was like he lost his mind at times. Now that he has been treated, he has his old personality back. I know that you haven't had Kodak long enough to really establish a baseline for her behavior, but EPM might be some thing to consider testing for.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i think, like CA or not, the videos I posted, where he goes into spooking horses, working them around spooky stuff, moving their feet, giving them a job, is right on
Body control entails not just something like taking the head away, but getting them soft in their entire body, as he has that young horse working around those farm obstacles. I think many people, not understanding what a really soft and responsive horse is,get really hung up on the word body control
They think it is just putting some horse in a mechanically difficult position, to control his reactions, and that is not so
Also, when you get a horse soft in his entire body, responding to aids, out of ingrained response, versus the pressure of either a bit or legs, you get them soft also in their mind
Of course you have to ride a horse out, and arena work alone won't do that-you need that exposure and open space.However getting a horse really 'broke' responsive, soft in his body, soft in his poll, thus soft in his mind, PREPARES you better to ride that hrose out successfully. You still need to put those miles on a horse, but I rather do it on a horse that has steering and brakes!
I am amazed at people who ride horses out,before they have any of that, just relying on some companion horse that is experienced. If a horse won't give in the face and poll, when asked, won't stop softly , work off legs lightly, in an arena, he is not ready to ride out


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think, once pain has been ruled out, you have to consider that Kodak is a horse that needs to be ridden with confidence, given a job, and worked to get her mind back whenever it leave the rider.
Horses are only as good as you expect them to be.
Going back to that first video by CA, he had a woman, riding a TB that he had going well, and that rode well for her when she first got him back from that training program, contact him because the hrose was becoming an idiot riding out, looking for stuff to spook at.
He asked her how he rode int he arena. Great was her answer.
What did she do with him there? Well, she did all kinds of exercises, riding him , versus being a passenger.
Next question-how did she ride him outside of that arena? Well, she rode him , just hoping he would not spook, go down that trail.
Bingo. She was no longer a leader, riding that horse, giving him direction, allowing him to become looky,.
On CA's advise, she then started to work him outside that arena, much like in his second video, moving those feet, directing him, keeping him focused on her.
Result-he went back to being a calm horse, ridden out.
First thing I would have done, when Kodak got focused on the son and the dogs, knowing her personality, would have been to have worked her, moving those feet, getting her attention back on me. Horse like her, don't just stand there, and then decide that what they are seeing is okay, not posing a threat. They become completely focused on that distraction, tune out the rider, then react
Until you can trust such a horse, not be be over reactive, you have to ride them proactively, keep their mind on you.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

3Horses2DogsandaCat said:


> I see that you have had a few suggestions to test for Lyme. Another suggestion is EPM. I don't know if it is a concern in your area, but it completely changed my horse's demeanor. He didn't have the obvious awkwardness or weakness that I would expect from EPM, but he became extremely sensitive to the touch and almost dangerous during grooming times. He also began rearing while being led, and he became more spooky and aggressive. It was like he lost his mind at times. Now that he has been treated, he has his old personality back. I know that you haven't had Kodak long enough to really establish a baseline for her behavior, but EPM might be some thing to consider testing for.


EPM is not a concern in Alberta, but might be in eastern Canada. Since it can have neurological effects, of course it can trigger abnormal reactions, but, they would be present year round.
Sure, rule all possibilities out, but after that, just accept that Kodak has both been messed up in the past, came with 'baggage', and might also be the type of horse that will always require an experienced rider, one that rides her through stuff, makes the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard
The worst thing you can do, with a reactive horse, is to make allowances for their reactions. Tie her up in that stall, and then bang that door as hard as possible,versus being careful not to startle her
Make her work, riding out, versus just hoping she won't spook.
There is no compromise on such a horse-you either work them, get them through that over reactive phase, and if that is not possible for you, you 'divorce ' such a horse, finding a better partner for both of you
Neither marriage nor owning a horse, need to insist 'until death us do part'
Ther eis a time to both divorce your partner, or your horse, JMO


----------



## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> Because I'm tired of repeating myself, I'm just going to ask everyone to read all my replies before posting more of the same advice.
> 
> Maybe time for me to take another break from HF... too bad because there is great advice in here. But this thread has gone off the rails again.


No kidding. One of the things I really like about the Horse Forum is the typically polite and considerate nature that accompanies advice and even disagreements. But some recent posts have gotten silly. Kodak is suddenly acting like an idiot, and it would be irrational for Arcadianartist to expect him to behave. She was on the right track with her lunging and successfully worked through some resistance.

If any of you think she needs a more positive attitude when approaching the horse, there are less inflammatory ways of making that suggestion. She's heartbroken about the reversal in Kodak's behavior and a little empathy would go a long way.


----------



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Personally, if a post annoys or angers me, I've found the best way to deal with it is to simply not respond to it. Saves me a lot of worry, trouble, and time :wink:

IME, most people are a lot better off when they don't try to THINK so much about everything they've been told, all the advice, etc., but rather just allow their instincts to kick in. So my advice to you Acadian, is to just allow yourself to react naturally (as op-positional as this view is). Most people who have some know how with horses (so like intermediates and up), if they are allowed to just react naturally with those instincts and reactions that you have been training into yourself in your time with horses-muscle memory.

Of course, it's different if all of your muscle memory reactions are completely wrong (meaning you have trained yourself wrongly on how to react to a horse). However, Acadian you have been doing like most people recommend, and what most people with questions don't do, which is working with a trainer. Considering that you've managed Harley and other horses successfully, I would not think that your 'horse instincts' are bad ones or counterproductive.

While you may be apprehensive with Kodak (and rightly so, after all this I don't blame you), the more that you are told "don't be nervous!" and the more that you think "don't be nervous, don't expect it, don't be apprehensive" the worse it is going to be.

I posted something a while back along the lines of "An experienced horse person's reaction and decision in a moment with a horse is far more accurate and applicable than any training theory or advice ever will be." There you go. Don't worry about any of it-being worried about being worried lol. Just "be" in the moment. If you're a bit apprehensive in that moment, that's OK. Just live in the present and on each present action/reaction, don't think about what happened or what might happen or what advice you have been given.

Playing with your horse at liberty (when done safely) is an excellent way to learn how to exist in the moment with your horse. I highly recommend it.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

While it is worthwhile to rule out health issues ... honestly, I think she just has your number. And/or doesn't trust you to "keep her safe from the horse-eating monsters." Either way, it results in the same.

I can understand the pocketbook situation -- but I do agree that the more you can have your trainer help you with Kodak, the better. Would she possibly be available to help get Kodak on the trailer?


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Stopping the unsuccessful trailer loading was the right thing to do. It was too dangerous to continue, and continued fighting type of behavior will only harden her reactive responses. I don't think by quitting you have taught her to 'win' this way. YOu just have to work at it from a different angle.

I have had plenty of negative trailer loading experiences, and not enough good ones, so I AM apprehensive when I start to load a horse. I wish I weren't, and I try to 'fake it 'til I make it". But, not always doable. a person needs a large base of positive experiences in order to feel confident. And, some people, as the OP has admitted, need more , because they are of a more cautious or fearful nature. Remember, the true bravery is not the absense of fear, but having fear and yet going forward, THROUGH the fear.

It is only common sense to do the blood draw out in the open, and it's also pretty normal to be apprehensive. It's also probably best to just let the vet and his/her attendant do the holding. No shame in that.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Never get in a fight at the trailer,so I agree to quit if the horse does not have the basics to load without a problem.
Work on those things away from the trailer, so loading is never a stressful situation, nor has the horse associating that trailer with a negative experience
If your vet is an experienced equine vet, or at least someone that has horse experience, then they will know how to handle Kodak for the blood drawing
Good luck, and hope things come together for you and Kodak.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I only read page one so I apoligize for surely repeating what others have said. I guess I've been a bad "internet friend" because I'm reading the responses saying you should sell Kodak and get a horse that's more suited for your skillsets. I'm assuming you've been having issues up to this point. I'm sure the "get a trainer" discussions would have already occurred at this point so I'll skip over all of that. Just wanted to say that I'm glad your ok... and I think you probably already know that you probably turned the horse on to high alert by preparing for the spook when you saw your son and the dogs on the trail. I know I've been guilty of it. I see a stump or a dirt pile and think... "potential spook" and I'll start gathering myself and positioning myself for it which makes the horse start looking for the hidden monsters. The trick is to be alert and ready without giving any signals. No tensing of the body or changing of the voice...


I hope you figure out the right steps for you. Is a new mount something you have been considering? Again - I apologize for only reading page one.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

farmpony84 said:


> I only read page one so I apoligize for surely repeating what others have said. I guess I've been a bad "internet friend" because I'm reading the responses saying you should sell Kodak and get a horse that's more suited for your skillsets. I'm assuming you've been having issues up to this point. I'm sure the "get a trainer" discussions would have already occurred at this point so I'll skip over all of that. Just wanted to say that I'm glad your ok... and I think you probably already know that you probably turned the horse on to high alert by preparing for the spook when you saw your son and the dogs on the trail. I know I've been guilty of it. I see a stump or a dirt pile and think... "potential spook" and I'll start gathering myself and positioning myself for it which makes the horse start looking for the hidden monsters. The trick is to be alert and ready without giving any signals. No tensing of the body or changing of the voice...
> 
> 
> I hope you figure out the right steps for you. Is a new mount something you have been considering? Again - I apologize for only reading page one.


That's ok, I get it - no one wants to read 27 pages of posts!!! I appreciate you prefacing your post by admitting to it. 

I am working with a trainer, and I fully admit (as I have several times already) that I am not skilled enough to deal with a horse like Kodak. She gets nervous, I get nervous, it spirals. I am quite aware of this, but unable to relax around her anymore, since she has acted out so many times now in situations where she used to be fine. I need to rebuild my confidence on a safe horse. Maybe Kodak would be the right horse for me in 10 years... maybe not. But she's not the right horse for me now. I thought we were doing so well last winter... but then she reverted to how she was when I first got her, which makes me think she will never be the horse I need her to be.

I am doing a test ride on a potential horse on Friday. This is the one my trainer has been tuning up, and says this horse is totally chill about everything. More whoa than go, but willing to move when asked. Did some trail riding happily, no sign of rushing back to the barn. Will go out alone or with another horse. Has been exposed to various spooky objects, been on the road, nothing phases her. The last test was putting a beginner rider on her. This rider has only ever ridden lesson horses, and said she felt 100% secure. My trainer has offered to let me take her home for the winter. We could keep working together over the next few months. This mare doesn't have much training, but has an amazing temperament. I'm ok with that, and am willing to keep working with a trainer as long as I feel we're a good match. Bonus: she's giving me until spring to decide whether I want to buy her. If I don't, my trainer will put her on the market. 

I'll report on my ride if things go well. But on a different thread. Because this one has gone on long enough!


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I will follow the new thread from page one!


It does sound like she's not working out for you. Maybe it's because she's a chick! I have 2 mares. One is an angel. She wants to be bad and sometimes thinks about it. You can tell she wants to do something awful because she'll kick her belly with her foot. That's the worst thing she's ever done. It's like... she wants to be that bad girl but.... she just can't.


The other one - oh she's a sneaky witch. She looks so kind and innocent and she is so very gentle. She has no spook at all and so kind and sweet and loving and EVIL. She will go from gentle and smooth to straight legged cowboy twisting obnoxious witch in less than half a second. And once you are on the ground? So kind and gently and loving and caring. Such a motherly little mare and then BAM - you are down again. I blame it on the mares... I thought she would grow out of it. Maybe she will, I mean, she's only 23 after all....


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

farmpony84 said:


> I will follow the new thread from page one!
> 
> 
> It does sound like she's not working out for you. Maybe it's because she's a chick! I have 2 mares. One is an angel. She wants to be bad and sometimes thinks about it. You can tell she wants to do something awful because she'll kick her belly with her foot. That's the worst thing she's ever done. It's like... she wants to be that bad girl but.... she just can't.
> ...


I am approaching 58 and am still that way at times......lololol


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Re. the trailer thing
I've seen enough experienced people get seriously hurt trying to load difficult horses onto trailers to know that there's a point when its safer to quit.
The fact is, the more you try to fight the horse the more over reactive the horse will get and an over reactive horse is never going to be easy to handle because you've lost its mind.
With any situation like that its often easier to take the horse completely away and do something else with it to get it 'back with you' and calmed down. You can then go back to the trailer and try again - sometimes we've bought really bad to trailer horses and done this and the next time they're asked to load they've walked right on.
When you buy a horse with a lot of gaps in its history you have no real clue what you're dealing with, if its actions are fear related, bad associations or its just being naughty but if you get it wrong, assume that its all bad attitude and are too tough you just make thing even worse.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If you are out of your depth and cannot swim chances are you will drown. 

You might not have a high chance of drowning with a horse but sure as heck you can get seriously hurt. 

As the old saying goes, 'Those that learn to run away, live to fight another day!'


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Acadian....
I've read off and on this thread and commented once before when you were first hurt...
Well, now I will comment again.
Please take my words as meant kindly not nasty.

I care that you were injured.
I care that that mare has hurt you, you are now afraid of her and her unpredictable nature.
I care that you recognize, "enough is enough" and I applaud you for it.
Please, no more with Kodak. Sell her now. Find her a home now.
No more time spent working this or that...just sell and get out.

As for the horse your trainer has been tuning up...
Please, no daggers being thrown at you but...
It is fine for the horse to be "in-training", in a boarding barn atmosphere with many skilled hands handling daily the horse during all activities that go on daily.
If you are serious about this horse get it home ASAP and you and your daughter be the only ones to handle it. Try this before the weather changes so you get in some ride time together and able to bond in daylight yet before the dreaded intense cold and ice come back.
Start off a relationship on the right foot with this new horse...on your terms, with you in a position of authority and respect shown to you.
Please take out the outside hands and make this your project so when the time comes to make a decision you have had enough time to really make a decision based on fact of how the horse is in your barn, in your backyard, under only your care and riding...
As for Kodak...you may love her but you were her stop-over point to a new home and loving owner.
Please, please stop with her now. Stop trying to test her so she not hurt you just because she can and is afraid of her own demons you can't find.
You need as much protecting as does the horse at this point.
No darts thrown from me... I had the same thing happen to me...it happens.
I also made the decision to sell the horse, got him a good home with a lovely owner he adores and she adores him...a great match. A much better home he enjoys and works well in it.
I was then able to move forward looking for a new horse. Today I am blessed that I found that wonderful mount to join my family herd of safe trail horses for my family...
My point is.... Take that step forward, scary as it is and sell Kodak. Then start again...sooner rather than later. Do not keep Kodak, period. She is unpredictable with you and I'm sorry but although you love her...it is not worth being hurt again in my mind. 
I've been there exactly where you are and it is scary... take that step. 
Then get that new horse home ASAP to start again now while you still have a chance to work together before winter sets in...
:runninghorse2:......
_jmo..._


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

^^^^^^^Best post in the entire thread.


----------



## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

jaydee said:


> The fact is, the more you try to fight the horse the more over reactive the horse will get and an over reactive horse is never going to be easy to handle because you've lost its mind.


One of my favorite Clinton Andersonisms is: “When a horse and an owner get within 50’ of a trailer, both of their brains fall out.”


----------



## Folly (Jan 27, 2015)

Wow - I've been away for a while, and first thing I see is this thread. Makes me sad - I so hoped she would work out and enjoyed the success stories. But man - I have nothing but empathy for you! I sold my first horse for similar reasons. Some on this forum might remember that journey. I had to get out. And it was the right decision. My horse now is a great fit; it's night and day. I hope you have found a good one!

I had to make this equine adventure fit into my life as it exists. I'm not a trainer, don't have a lifetime of 'horse sense' to fall back on, and frankly don't have forever to get it all figured out. You seem very courageous to me. I remember a bit about when you first got Harley; it wasn't always perfect. But now he's great. You've got this!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Folly said:


> Wow - I've been away for a while, and first thing I see is this thread. Makes me sad - I so hoped she would work out and enjoyed the success stories. But man - I have nothing but empathy for you! I sold my first horse for similar reasons. Some on this forum might remember that journey. I had to get out. And it was the right decision. My horse now is a great fit; it's night and day. I hope you have found a good one!
> 
> I had to make this equine adventure fit into my life as it exists. I'm not a trainer, don't have a lifetime of 'horse sense' to fall back on, and frankly don't have forever to get it all figured out. You seem very courageous to me. I remember a bit about when you first got Harley; it wasn't always perfect. But now he's great. You've got this!


Thanks so much Folly. What you say rings true to me. And it's good to "see" you again. Yes, this is indeed highly disappointing, especially since we were doing so well. But I have to face the facts. I'm not selling her until I'm sure I have another horse lined up though, so I may end up keeping her over the winter. I can't leave Harley all by himself. If I do keep her, I'll pay my trainer to ride her a few times just to keep her tuned up. But for now, I'm taking a break from her.

We did really luck out with Harley. He is at camp with my daughter, and charming everyone. He's become such a good boy, and is so sweet. I miss not having him around. His hot breath on my neck, his neighing when he sees me. I've realized I like a horse that is more extroverted and outgoing. Things weren't perfect with him, and we went through some growing pains, but there was never a second that I thought we couldn't keep him. That's the difference. Harley's behaviors were those of a slightly spoiled horse seeing how far he could push things, along with a slightly hot Arab temperament, but Kodak's behaviors are bewildering, somewhat unexpected, and frankly, dangerous to everyone around her. I tried really, really hard. I do feel I have failed her, but also that she needs to be with a better rider than me.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You have not failed her!
You gave her every chance, , had professional health care workers and trainers to rule out any pain issues.She just needs a different rider, and you need a horse that you can enjoy riding, and can truly bond with.
Happy trails! That new equine 'love' is waiting for you out there, to be her/his special human.


----------



## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> I tried really, really hard. I do feel I have failed her, but also that she needs to be with a better rider than me.


Well, to quote that great horse trainer Dirty Harry, "a person has to know her limitations." We all have them.

Clinton Anderson says he often gets some variation on this question: "I have this 18 year old mare who has spent most of her life in the pasture and she's aggressive and doesn't really have any training. If I buy your Fundamentals kit, will it work on her?"

His answer is always, "If you have 3-5 hours a day, at least five days a week, for the next two years, and you work through every obstacle and don't get discouraged and give up, then yes, it will work. Why would you want to do that when another horse would be one tenth the effort?"

I've forgotten the specifics of hours and days and all that, but the point is that sometimes there's no point. And I would say the same thing about taking a horse to a trainer. Yes, if you found the right trainer and spent five to ten thousand dollars, you could fix almost any horse. What would be the point?

I stuck it out with my big guy because he was my dad's last horse, born two months before my dad died. He's actually a wonderful horse and I have certainly never touched his potential, but he was also way too much horse for me and my level of horsemanship and the time I had available for training.

Arcadian Artist, don't wait so long to find that other horse that you miss out on this once in a lifetime opportunity to share something special with your daughter. You might have only a four year window to build some really special memories before she moves on to other interests. Kodak has no right to screw that up.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

*MODERATORS NOTE*

*This thread is now closed as it has more than run its course. Thank you to those who participated.*


----------

