# Horse rolls under saddle sometimes...



## HorseLover123 (Sep 28, 2008)

Hi  I own a gelding named Mystery who's in his 20's.
Basically, he was in a riding school for about 7 years but got fed up and rolled riders off... i took him on after he had a year break and it took me months to get him to stop. Its a year later and he hadn't done it in ages.. 
2 weeks ago he decided he didn't feel like school work and dropped down on the ground, luckily I reogiznied this and got off on time! Btw we are at a new yard now and have been there about 5 months.

My confidence has suffered, I also am very upset as I thought he trusted me  but obviously he has no respect for me..
I give him into lots of trouble when he does it, I usually get back on but he does it again :-| and I give him a tap on the bum with the whip, which usually stops him but I want to find some method of him never doing it again!

I've heard something, but want to know everyone's opinion on this..

Is it true if you let the horse roll but then make them stay down.. it will stop them? I heard this is very effective.



Would really like some help as I have hardly any confidence left


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I would say when he does it, give him a really good whack with a whip. Not just a tap, a CRACK! It'll make him think twice about doing it a second time.

I haven't heard of that method... Sounds almost like the 'throwing down' method.


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## HorseLover123 (Sep 28, 2008)

Yeah I was lunging him this week and he tried it twice with his tack on and I give him a smack, he didn't try it again  it's just getting my confidence back.. :-|


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## palominolover (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm also going to agree, not just a tap a HUGE smack. Also work with him on the ground, do groundwork, and just get his feet moving. Teach him respect. Good luck with him .


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

When his knees start to buckle then you give him a really really hard kick with both legs and you use your whip three or four times as hard as you can behind your leg. Then you make him canter several circles before coming back to a walk. 
That way he knows if he goes to roll he will be punished and worked hard for it.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

A horse on my horsecamp did that and the camp instructors were yelling "KICK HER IN THE GUTS" that worked, but it wouldn't be to my taste personally.

This might sound wierd, but I wonder if you could teach him to lie down on command.. My thinking being that if he does it, make him get up, then lie down over and over again until he realises it's a chore not fun. A girl I know did this with her horse that bucked, taught the horse to buck on command and everytime it bucked she would give it the command non-stop and it worked. Takes time though.


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## PumpkinzMyBaby22 (Jul 5, 2009)

HollyBubbles, that's really clever. I might have to try that. 

To the OP: Yes, as soon as your horse heads down, a crack with the whip and lots of work should do the trick. As you said, he stopped doing it when you gave him the crack while lunging, so it should work while you are in the saddle. Another thing to note: don't let him feel that you are predicting him to roll or that you are low in confidence. This will give him the opportunity to roll when you don't need/ want him to.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Catch the down/roll BEFORE it becomes a down/roll. As you have seen, they don't just up and fall over, there are several signs (granted, some can be fairly subtle) that the thought has entered their mind. The trick is, as soon as he shows those signs you give him something else to think about - MOVING HIS BUTT. This is not the time to suggest he move off, this is the time to DEMAND that he move off, and NOW. If he is moving off at a rapid pace it is impossible for him to lay down. Repeat this enough and he will start to equate the urge to lay down while under saddle with additional work, that will make it rather unappealing and will likely create a change in his inclinations.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

My curly does this whenever we ride in deep sand. Curlies love to roll in sand, if he tries, i kick, kick, kick and pull him one way with my rein. Then get out of the sand as fast as possible. Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I like to play the game but I don't tell the horse I'm changing the rules. It's not so much a respect issue, he's fed up to the hilt with ring work. Give the old boy a break and take him on a leisurely trail ride. He is old and lying down may be his way of saving himself when he's tired. His body doesn't function as well as a younger horse. At his age he shouldn't have to be lunged. I'm wondering how many circles he's done in thsoe 20+ years. If he lays down while you are riding, just get off and put weight on his neck so he can't get up. Take your crop and just tap him in various places, not so much to hurt but to make it unpleasant. He will want to get up after a few minutes but keep him there. There should be a big sigh which indicates he's given up. A horse that's kept down feels vulnerable to attack. When you let him up, be in the saddle.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

HollyBubbles said:


> A horse on my horsecamp did that and the camp instructors were yelling "KICK HER IN THE GUTS" that worked, but it wouldn't be to my taste personally.
> 
> If there is ever a time to condone harsh treatment of a horse, it is when they try to roll with a rider. This is extremely dangerous behavior. If the rider gets stuck under the horse, they may be horribly injured or even killed.
> You need to take whatever measures necessary to stop the horse from going down, and to keep him moving forward.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

As another said, this horse, and all horses for that matter, will give a sign that they are up to something. You are missing them.

Watch his ears for one thing. A horse that is contemplating something will have one ear back and one forwards, (mules will have ears touching at tips) and those ears are saying "hmmmm...let's see what I can do" so that is time to react, not after.

And if you can read horses this way, I can, but have met quite a few that can't, so don't know, you can feel it in your mind, that they are not with you mentally, and are up to no good. They go away, for lack of better term, and many times are thinking of devilment.

A lightening of stride, a lift of shoulder, a dropping under you in the saddle, or a particularly fetching piece of ground ahead should be a warning that rolling is on the agenda, and as others wrote, WHACK, and a BOOT to keep horse moving is needed fast.

But mainly, watch those ears, as they will tell you what horse is thinking first.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Some horses give little warning that they are going to drop when it's an evasion tactic. I've seen them drop like they'd been head struck with a bullet.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> HollyBubbles said:
> 
> 
> > A horse on my horsecamp did that and the camp instructors were yelling "KICK HER IN THE GUTS" that worked, but it wouldn't be to my taste personally.
> ...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

HollyBubbles said:


> This might sound wierd, but I wonder if you could teach him to lie down on command.. My thinking being that if he does it, make him get up, then lie down over and over again until he realises it's a chore not fun. A girl I know did this with her horse that bucked, taught the horse to buck on command and everytime it bucked she would give it the command non-stop and it worked. Takes time though.


I wouldn't try that. Since this horse is already using the laying down as a way to avoid work, teaching him to do it would likely only make the problem worse. There was a member here who taught her horse to lie down and rear up as a trick. Well, later on, the horse started using that against her and would lay down whenever he got even a little bit upset (if rearing way up didn't work first), even if he was trotting/loping along. I honestly don't know if she ever got him over it, though I suspect probably not.

I searched back through old threads and this is the result of her "trick training"....
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/help-horse-lies-down-while-being-105057/#post1252345

Trick training is not something that should be attempted by your average horse owner. There is a very fine line between a horse performing a trick on cue and the horse having a very dangerous vice like pawing, rearing, kicking, laying down, etc. It takes a very talented horseman to keep the 2 separated.

To the OP, like others have said, get after him hard whenever he starts to lay down. If he's on the lunge line, take in after him and get him up into the lope and work him there for a couple of minutes before allowing him to walk again. If you are riding and you feel him start to think about it, lay into him with your whip, get him working hard. If he does go ahead and drop with you (as some horses can seem to do with no warning at all), then first and foremost, get yourself in a safe position. Step off as he goes down and then immediately tear into him and get him back on his feet by any means necessary. If you have to kick him with the toe of your boot or really use your whip on his rump, then so be it. Keep after him until he gets back to his feet.

Because he has done this as an avoidance for so long, you may not ever be able to get him completely over it. After all, we all know how hard it is to break a habit :lol:.

Don't take this as a dash to your confidence or trust in him or his respect for you. He's only doing something that he'd been allowed to do for so many years that it's hard for him to stop. Actually, you should be proud of yourself that you have managed to get him to the point that he's only done it this once in the last year .


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm beginning to feel sorry for this horse if it's owner follows the advice to treat him harshly.


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## Samstead (Dec 13, 2011)

there's a horse at camp that always used to roll with a saddle on it was a western saddle though and he could't get onto his back because of the thorn....funny to watch him try though


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## Samstead (Dec 13, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> I'm beginning to feel sorry for this horse if it's owner follows the advice to treat him harshly.


 it's very dangerous for horse to roll with person on their back they havre to learn not to do it if that means a good kick on the but (maybe not the belly I'd be worried about ribs and organs) or crop to the rump then you gotte do what ya gotta do it might seem harsh but a riders safety is at stake and that should be the first priority in any situation keep in mind the owner is likely otherwise very kind and caring of her horse


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> I'm beginning to feel sorry for this horse if it's owner follows the advice to treat him harshly.


Oh, yes. I would sure hate for the horse's butt to sting just a little bit. Perhaps it would be better to just let him continue to lay down on her until he traps one of her legs and seriously hurts her.

BTW, _nothing_ of what has been suggested on this thread is any more harsh in the horse's mind than your suggestion of sitting on his neck to keep him in a vulnerable prey position and continually tapping him with a crop until he just gives up :?.


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## HorseLover123 (Sep 28, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> I'm beginning to feel sorry for this horse if it's owner follows the advice to treat him harshly.


Ok, I would NEVER treat my horse harshly. I have known him since I was 10 years old! As others have pointed out, rolling is very dangerous while in the saddle! he obviously isn't going to stop if i say "oh please don't roll.." i know it's going to be tough on him to get out of the habit but what other choice do I have? He's not ready for retirement, he's full of energy and still loves jumping etc.

For everyone who has posted, I have read your replies and am very thankful for your help  it's very scary when a horse rolls with you :-( 



The pictures are from last year at the riding school I kept him at, he stopped for months as I had said, but that one time weeks ago has really scared me :/


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Saddlebag said:


> I'm beginning to feel sorry for this horse if it's owner follows the advice to treat him harshly.


Where in the heck has anyone suggested "harsh" treatment?


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Oh, yes. I would sure hate for the horse's butt to sting just a little bit. Perhaps it would be better to just let him continue to lay down on her until he traps one of her legs and seriously hurts her.
> 
> *BTW, nothing of what has been suggested on this thread is any more harsh in the horse's mind than your suggestion of sitting on his neck to keep him in a vulnerable prey position and continually tapping him with a crop until he just gives up *:?.


Good point - there is physical "harshness" and then there is mental harshness - I would say that an argument could easily be made that this approach falls under the latter very well.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

In the world of horses you learn something new every day. I wish I had access to this thread when my old pony started rolling to get shut of us.

He was sold to a gentleman who used him for a cart pony. He never rolled in harness that I know of. Then again, he never had to deal with a bunch of yahoo children anymore either...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Horselover, that is a very beautiful horse.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Saddlebag said:


> I'm beginning to feel sorry for this horse if it's owner follows the advice to treat him harshly.


What's your suggestion on how to discourage this dangerous behaviour?


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Rolling under saddle is one thing that I have zero tolerance for due to the danger it presents to the rider (and the horse). My family was touched in a very deep and personal way by a crushing injury when a horse went over on a rider (my aunt, who was 14 at the time). It was not an intentional roll, but the results of an intentional roll can be the same (she lost her life), and that is why I will NOT tolerate a horse purposefully going down under saddle for any non-medical reason, period. When it comes to a situation that puts life in danger I'd rather a rider use a "harsh" approach (which I still do not believe that any of what has been suggested here, short of kicking in the gut perhaps, can be classified as 'harsh') than do nothing and allow themselves and/or their horse to pay for the roll with their life.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

smrobs said:


> BTW, _nothing_ of what has been suggested on this thread is any more harsh in the horse's mind than your suggestion of sitting on his neck to keep him in a vulnerable prey position and continually tapping him with a crop until he just gives up :?.


I disagree. It was the horse who put himself in that position (on the ground)…not the rider. If the horse decides that's what he wants to do to get out of work, then I see nothing wrong in the rider deciding when he'll get up. I would not, however, add insult to it by tapping him with a crop.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Horsepoor, my little brother, when I was reading, would sit beside me and tap my arm, incessantly, trying to get my attention. It didn't hurt but it was sure annoying. That is the idea of tapping the horse when not allowing him up. Truth be known, if one were to tap the same spot continuously it has the opposite effect and relaxes the horse. It's called Endotapping.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

IN MY OPINION

Annoying a horse just because you can is unnecessary, pointless and insulting to the horse. I believe horses have a sense of justice. I believe this horse knows exactly what he's doing and that he's not supposed to do it. He'll not resent the rider for correcting him UNLESS it is taken further than it needs to be…tapping this horse while keeping it down is going beyond what needs to be done, and the horse will resent that.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Wow, that is clever! Makes ya thankful for the buck'n broncs!! 

I have noticed that the one thing that will stop a horse from rolling in the pasture, is...as they are preparing to do so .... something "hugely distracting " occures, like another horse side swipes them (young horses often do this to elders), or a sonic boom, etc.,. So, clearly they can be distracted right out of the thought. Perhaps this can be applied...when you feel him getting ready to go down, whip out a flag and start screaming, maybe.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Horsepoor, have you ever worked with a horse that lays down? Horses have no sense of insult, that is a human emotion. If horses have a developed sense of justice, then why is it a horse may have no qualms about dumping it's rider, or bolting yet the rider takes good care of it and pays the vet bills. Where is the justice in that? When the horse lies down, such as the aforementioned, there's no thinking as to whether it's right or wrong. It's worked in the past, that's what he knows.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

HollyBubbles said:


> Skipsfirstspike said:
> 
> 
> > Very true, I was just thinking in the way of internal organs, kicking a horse in the guta would scare me is all :lol:
> ...


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Worth trying:

A. Prevention: Stay alert for when horse decides he wants to go down, then bump straight up with one rein & give leg.

B. Cure: If horse succeeded in going down, press his nostrils shut with fingers; he should want to get up to be able to breathe.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Gee... And people were saying that smacking with a crop is mean...


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

A friend's gelding picked up this habit 2 summers ago. He would literally drop like someone had shot him, the last time he did it was at a trot. I watched it and he gave no indication that he was going to do it. 

My friend jump off of him, whipped him on the butt until he got up and then she worked him HARD in circles, backing up, just basically made him move his feet until he was submissive towards her. She put the fear of god into him and he hasn't done it since.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

mls said:


> HollyBubbles said:
> 
> 
> > Are you serious?
> ...


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> Horsepoor, have you ever worked with a horse that lays down? Horses have no sense of insult, that is a human emotion. If horses have a developed sense of justice, then why is it a horse may have no qualms about dumping it's rider, or bolting yet the rider takes good care of it and pays the vet bills. Where is the justice in that? When the horse lies down, such as the aforementioned, there's no thinking as to whether it's right or wrong. It's worked in the past, that's what he knows.


Yes I have…one of them is discussed here:

www.horseforum.com/horse-training/laying-down-while-tied-up-33143/page4/

Another was one similar to the horse we are discussing here. He'd lay down with kids but not with adults. He knew the difference, what he could get away with and whose discipline was going to be effective and whose wasn't. The best thing to do has already been discussed - that being getting after him before he goes to the ground - and the OP said tapping him on the bum usually works, but wanted to know about other methods, specifically making him stay down after he'd already laid down. THAT is what prompted my post (the response that it was cruel to do so). 

Regarding emotion - I do think that horses have emotions - fear being the biggest. That said, it is our job as owners to help the horse overcome its fear and teach it how to deal with it, not cater to it. However, we are not discussing a fearful horse here…this horse is not afraid of being on the ground as he's making that choice (to lay down) on his own. No one is forcing him, and he is doing it to get out of work (avoidance). Horses have likes and dislikes that are over and above "survival" needs. To me, that is emotional - I've seen horses who actually seemed happy with a job well done, and I've seen horses who appeared depressed over changes in their lives. I've seen horses become visibly angry and frustrated when they didn't understand or get their way, and I've seen horses visibly pleased, almost proud, when they realized they'd done right. As far as the sense of justice goes, I think horses can interpret intent - when a person disciplines a horse far and above what needs to be done, a horse knows it. If the person's intent is to "make the horse pay" the horse can sense it. Perhaps justice isn't the best word…maybe a sense of fairness would be a better term. If I'm going to use a crop as a cue, then I'm not going to tap him with it when he is unable to respond to it. That, in my opinion, is unfair. And as far as the horse dumping it's rider who takes good care of it, so what, the horse doesn't have a clue what the rider does to take care of it. Horses don't have a concept of money or bill paying or what they cost the rider/owner. The horse simply doesn't know that a vet or a boarding facility requires anything, it only knows it's getting fed, and that's all it cares about.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

mls said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Have you ever seen a horse be kicked by a pasture buddy?


Embarrasingly enough, I actually haven't :lol: that thought never even crossed my mind... That makes me sound rather stupid I think lol.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I find it odd no one has even considered the fact that this may not be a behavior issue ? You said in your forst post he's in his 20's. Thats old age for a horse, Ever considered maybe he is hurting ? maybe his saddle doesnt fit ? maybe he doesnt like you up there beating on him. 
Hey I am all for making a horse listen and correcting bad behavior, after and thats a big AFTER you are certain it is behavior and not a physical issue.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

It is because of this horse's age that I wouldn't consider harsh treatment. I have found that often the best way to deal with unwanted behaviour is to play the horse's game then change the consequences. The problem with hitting a horse hard with a riding crop is the skin doesn't welt, a healing process. It is quite different from the impact of a flat hoof. With a kick the horse sees it coming and by trying to get out of the way most of the kick is diffused.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

If this was a sudden new behavior I'd be more willing to consider health issues, but this is a behavior the horse has done previously to get out of work.. It wouldn't hurt to double check saddle fit and other pain issues to rule them out, but I doubt that's the issue.


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## HorseLover123 (Sep 28, 2008)

Hi again guys.
He is NOT in any pain.
He has rolled in the past because of the riding school, he learned a way to get riders off.
If I thought my horse was in pain I wouldn't ride him? 

The vet said I was to keep him in regular exercise for his joints to stop them going stiff and help prevent arthritis. So what he's old? that doesn't mean he's in pain or is unable to work? :S


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## liz48170 (May 14, 2012)

My new mare did this now 2X. I know 1). The saddle is pinching her and too tight 2). The girth is bothering her (she bites at it) and 3). She is only 7, and a good sturdy healthy mare, but was used as a school horse for the past 4 1/2 yrs and is so pleasant and super docile, I can wack her with a whip and she doesn't do a thing, actually grabs it in her mouth and plays with it then wants her head rubbed. 

Now, I have at least 5000 miles under my belt on trail, and my Paso has gone down (tripped, sunk, spun out) and I have made her get on up.. but I know my Paso really well

Q: Are you 100% sure that if I sit on her neck, she CANNOT get up? I have been told to keep sitting on her, wack her, jerk on the rein, also change out the saddle (duh, I need someone to set up my horses for me).

If you are certain they can't get up or roll when you sit on their neck, I will do this next time after I fit a good saddle to her back and relieve any pain or pressure

She actually seemed to just drop out from me, seriously, no pawing, nothing no cue she was going to do this but now, 2X she has gotten me to get off her back, so she knows this, is smart and may do it again even with a saddle that doesn't hurt

Not sure if she did with the kids either, who probably thought it was quite funny You know how kids are, though her previous owner says she never did it, but she also let all the kids take her out on the trails without her.

Please let me know if this is true and that is what I will do. Like I said, is sort of laughs at a swat on the butt, or has been trained to do nothing and stand for schooling no matter what so she doesn't react in any way to a good kick in the sides or smack from the back end


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## liz48170 (May 14, 2012)

Horse Poor said:


> Yes I have…one of them is discussed here:
> 
> www.horseforum.com/horse-training/laying-down-while-tied-up-33143/page4/
> 
> ...


Regarding emotion - I do think that horses have emotions - fear being the biggest

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-rid...-saddle-sometimes-117439/page4/#ixzz1vRPYWygC


I have people say "horses have no emotions, only reactions". Seriously? You can look into my Paso's eyes and see fear, pain (if she is pain she looks that saddle like get it away from me), she communicates so well with humans. 

Out in the pasture with their buddies, watch them in action, the Mares are the most communicative and emotional (the female species) than are geldings (well, their balls have been removed so perhaps they have less.

One ear flick means somethin, one eye means something, their friend dies they look and act sooo depressed some will even stop eating and die. If they are well cared for, under God's roof not the barn walls, you can see happiness, delight. Watch the lead mare put the others in their place, and look out for the rest of the herd should some younger horse want to beat up on an older horse. Ain't botherin the lead mare so no emotion she wouldn't give a darn and stop eating her hay to bother. They play together, have very close friends, enemies, likes, dislikes. Not super high level of thinking like humans but in many ways much smarter than humans as they work on the basics. Humans get so caught up in pride greed and other things humans forget the basics let others die while they sit on billions.

I am quite certain horses have emotions, just different than us humans of "higher level thinkin". Our "higher level thinkin" gets us in trouble. Horses "lower level thinkin'" has kept horses on this planet 

No emotion, they wouldn't need a herd, a friend, wouldn't bond, wouldn't care if their friend died. My mare even resented being sold to me - it was so obvious "I was not her human". Took over 6 months to win her trust. Trust is an emotion, not a reaction.


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## liz48170 (May 14, 2012)

What happens if they roll on you? My biggest fear

Are you 100% sure If I sit on my mares neck she can't roll or move? Like to try that but I am pushin 50 now, and don't want to get rolled on.

And my mare is so doclie (school horse) - new barn, new field, seems not to have a care in the world that she is vunerable to attack? My Paso is scared to death of bein down I just make her get up if she falls, spins out or sinks into a muck hole

Need a solution other than wacking her - that doesn't work either.

Like I said, she is the most docile horse I have ever encountered (7 yr old Morab), former school horse....

Need a solution other than gettin rough with her cause she doesn't respond at all to that ))

If sitting on her neck keeps them down, I will just sit there - sit there - sit there - she is smart and will stop it sooner or later I am patient


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