# Won't stop playing with bit and gaping his mouth



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Being mainly a western rider, where any cavasson is illegal to show in, I don't use one in training.
If a horse learns to relax and use himself correctly , has no mouth issues, he will learn to work with a quiet, relaxed and closed mouth, just packing that bit
I also do not adjust that bit so there are any wrinkles in the corner of the mouth, like many English people in particular do
I do spend time bitting that horse up,while lunging, having him just at first pack that bit, while lunged off a halter, left underneath
Over time, I bit him up, until he can keep frame at all gaits and transitions. He is then ready to be lunged off of that inside ring of the snaffle, and ridden, adding leg aids to get true collection and impulsion
I seldom find then having any issues by that time, far as that bit goes
In my mind, a horse has to learn to work with a quiet, closed and relaxed mouth, rather than having it forced closed by any cavasson
I do also ride HUS, but have that cavasson on just tight enough to not look obviously loose


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## rascalboy (Jun 30, 2007)

Lol, you tried to fix it with a flash? Flashes only cover the symptoms. They don't fix the problem.
If the horse is opening his mouth and gaping, clearly something is wrong. This is usually a pain response.
It sounds like you love your loose rings. Most people ride with a loosering that is too small. It pinches the sides of the horse's mouth and can be rather painful. Most horses learn to ignore this. Other horses do not. If you look carefully you can sometimes see pinch spots or spots missing hair on the horse's mouth where the edges of the bit usually go.
It might be wise to try a larger bit if you're going to stick with looserings.
Have you tried anything with copper?
Going thicker might not be the answer either, in this case.
Now, look at other stuff. How does your bridle fit? Do you have the bit adjusted too high? I know the traditional "two wrinkles" rule, but that's honestly crap. When most horses are adjusted that high, their lips won't cover their front teeth all the way.
There's no reason why the horse can't be allowed to move the bit up and down a little bit (hehe) on his own. It reduces stress on the edges of the mouth and lets him feel your signals better since the constant pressure on the edges of his mouth is gone.
Also it takes pressure off of the poll. If you tighten the bit up, you know that you put more pressure by the poll. That's kind of a sensitive area and can be painful to some horses. Some people think it can give them a headache. Perhaps that is an issue for your horse?
Next, check out the browband. Most of them are too tight. It shouldn't be wedging the straps against his head. If he has marks when you take it off, it's too tight.
Lastly, the noseband. Is it too high? Is it rubbing on bone? Do you have it too tight? Most people have it too tight. Its only purpose is to prevent the horse from opening his mouth too wide and breaking his jaw if he happens to faceplant head first over a jump. Since you're doing dressage, I don't think that's going to happen and so you don't need a tight noseband.
I know, I know, but they look so pretty tightened up (do you have a crank? You can WAY overtighten those and can cause damage) and he's opening his mouth so of course you need to tighten it to fix it right? (Hell, you tried a flash). 
Yeah, no. In order for the horse to get on the bit and flex properly and do what you want him to do, he actually has to drop his jaw slightly. If the noseband is too tight, he can't do that. I've had people loosen their cranks and suddenly their horses can get on the bit without a fight. Isn't having a basic understanding of anatomy fun?! 
Then of course we have to consider neck/back pain. He could have gotten kicked in the pasture and now it's uncomfortable to flex how you want him to.
I know that your magical saddle was custom fitted but that doesn't mean much, considering that he's a living creature. Do you still fit into your pants the exact same way you did last year? Gaining or losing weight or muscle means his saddle could change fit and be causing him pain.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

How long has he been carrying a bit? What if he's just wearing the bridle (no reins), does he still fiddle with it? If he always fights it, it's more likely to be the bit/bridle set up. If he's fine with it until you pick up the reins, it can still be bit/bridle setup, but could also be he doesn't really understand the bit and rein pressure yet and needs retraining or simply that you aren't as light and responsive as he wants you to be.

Where does the bit sit in his mouth relative to his canine teeth and molars? If you don't know the answer to that, please go take a look and see  in another thread, we were just discussing that the "lip wrinkles" rule is bunk. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/questionable-bit-advice-643977/ You want the bit to sit midway between the molars and canines, and that can mean zero wrinkles with some horses and two fat ones with others. 

Is there room in his mouth for the bit when you look, or is it squashing his tongue (might need a thinner bit). Is it sitting comfortably or is it pressing on the roof or bars of his mouth when he's just carrying it (might try a double jointed or solid bit rather than a single joint). Are there any red spot or missing hair on his tongue, bars or lips? Those would indicate pinching or pressure points he is objecting to.

I will say that forcing his mouth closed does not enhance the horse's understanding of the cues and is counterproductive to the ideals of suppleness, relaxation, and rhythm essential to a well trained horse IMO. A tense, uncomfortable horse that is fighting basic equipment needs to be taken back to the very basics and retrained to accept the aids, not just to have his mouth closed with equipment and carry on with other training IMO. How is he supposed to learn advanced skills when he's distracted fighting the bit and contact? 

OTOH, I do know a horse with a parrot mouth who LOVES his figure-8. Due to the conformation of his mouth, he has trouble holding the bit stable himself and he gets very unhappy when the bit moves around, so it holds it stable for him. He doesn't fight it and try to gape though. He is clearly more relaxed with it than without it, so there are cases where the right gear does help.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm not seeing the big deal with the flash. Sounds like the OP and her trainer understand the proper use and are NOT using it to crank the mouth shut so what's the big deal? Since when does flash = bad or flash = forcing the mouth shut. As Sharpie says she knows a horse that really does like having a figure 8 (similar concept). Some of the comments seem a little rude.

Also for the record the OP has him in a D not a loose..

I think the flash is appropriate in this situation. I think as well as the flash he may just need time. I might try a few more bits, just play around. Can you make any guesses based off his mouth? Is he naturally mouthy? Doesn't sound like you tried many, and I don't feel that the rings matter that much. At 3 I'm assuming he's very recently started. Maybe some time just wearing the bit in his stall?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I don't think using a noseband to try to keep the horse's mouth shut is appropriate or helpful really - unless looks are most important to you - and I don't think it's at all 'rude' to say so personally. If the horse is already unhappy & 'arguing' about the bit, then a noseband can just provide one more annoyance to resist & distract.

Assuming the bit is comfortable - size/shape and position(maybe it's too low, too high, should be ported for his mouth shape...), I imagine it's that things are moving too fast for the horse - seems rider is asking for 'contact', when the horse probably isn't yet solid with the basics. Perhaps the horse was never also given time to just get used to *wearing* the bit, without any pressure on it in the first place. While I wouldn't be asking too much of a 3yo under saddle anyway, for physical reasons, for 'mental' reasons, I'd probably also be sticking to the basics for a while longer & not asking for much in the way of 'contact' & other 'refined' stuff just yet.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

rascalboy said:


> Lol, you tried to fix it with a flash? Flashes only cover the symptoms. They don't fix the problem.
> If the horse is opening his mouth and gaping, clearly something is wrong. This is usually a pain response.
> It sounds like you love your loose rings. Most people ride with a loosering that is too small. It pinches the sides of the horse's mouth and can be rather painful. Most horses learn to ignore this. Other horses do not. If you look carefully you can sometimes see pinch spots or spots missing hair on the horse's mouth where the edges of the bit usually go.
> It might be wise to try a larger bit if you're going to stick with looserings.
> ...


 Why don't you go back and re-read your post and really evaluate whether or not the valuable information in it needed to be delivered dripping in condescension.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm not seeing the big deal with the flash. Sounds like the OP and her trainer understand the proper use and are NOT using it to crank the mouth shut so what's the big deal? Since when does flash = bad or flash = forcing the mouth shut. As Sharpie says she knows a horse that really does like having a figure 8 (similar concept). Some of the comments seem a little rude.
> 
> Also for the record the OP has him in a D not a loose..
> 
> I think the flash is appropriate in this situation. I think as well as the flash he may just need time. I might try a few more bits, just play around. Can you make any guesses based off his mouth? Is he naturally mouthy? Doesn't sound like you tried many, and I don't feel that the rings matter that much. At 3 I'm assuming he's very recently started. Maybe some time just wearing the bit in his stall?


Yes I've gotten a lot of the "wear it in his stall" suggestions. He is quiet with his mouth sometimes. Sometimes not. And he's very mouthy in general. He is young so reminds me often of an ADD child - mouthing things (reins, halters as they go over his nose etc). It is a constant challenge finding the right recipe of tack/bits. Right now the horse is being asked to carry himself and he's being asked to push from behind and to move at an even rhythm. He's being given a lot of room to find his balance. I invite him to push into the contact but never ask for a frame. The photo is a moment in time - he's never seriously expected to carry himself this way 100% of the time. There are moments in time where he finds his balance, pushes into my hand and moves nicely forward. Those are few and far between since he's so young though and that is ok! When those moments happen naturally he's rewarded. Bottom line is I think he just needs time. As a couple of you mentioned already. He's going on 4, he's super young and still adjusting to everything. The flash is just another tool we tried. I'm not married to any piece of tack I was trying to be thorough in my post explaining what we've tried thus far so the advice wouldn't be redundant.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

loosie said:


> I don't think using a noseband to try to keep the horse's mouth shut is appropriate or helpful really - unless looks are most important to you - and I don't think it's at all 'rude' to say so personally. If the horse is already unhappy & 'arguing' about the bit, then a noseband can just provide one more annoyance to resist & distract.
> 
> Assuming the bit is comfortable - size/shape and position(maybe it's too low, too high, should be ported for his mouth shape...), I imagine it's that things are moving too fast for the horse - seems rider is asking for 'contact', when the horse probably isn't yet solid with the basics. Perhaps the horse was never also given time to just get used to *wearing* the bit, without any pressure on it in the first place. While I wouldn't be asking too much of a 3yo under saddle anyway, for physical reasons, for 'mental' reasons, I'd probably also be sticking to the basics for a while longer & not asking for much in the way of 'contact' & other 'refined' stuff just yet.


Loosie I do agree. I'm just saying that the purpose of the noseband/flash is NOT to keep the horses mouth shut. That seems to be the latest..thing. I know some people DO use it for that purpose and agree that it is wrongly used, but the OP/her trainer seem to understand the proper usage and adjustment so am not sure why everyone is jumping on her..because some other people may not?

The flash will help stabilize the bit and some horses really respond well to it, it can discourage the horse from gaping but is not designed to KEEP the horse from doing that. I must say I am currently working at a dressage barn and while tight seems to be the way to go even cranked really tight they won't prevent a horse from opening his mouth or fighting the bit.

I put one on my own mare recently and she loves it. She has never "gaped" with a bit before (and from the sounds of it neither has the OPs horse) and that is not why I put it on. It is adjusted even looser than her properly adjusted noseband.

I'm just not understanding all the flash...and now from the sound of it noseband..hate going on. It is a tool as any other and can be properly or improperly used. Why should we assume it's improper? From what I read I got it the other way around anyways. I feel like the OP said "flash" and is getting jumped on.

It wasn't saying it that was rude though I don't understand the need, just the way certain people chose to make their points.. (not you)

OP- As you say he is mouthy in general and he is young and hence green I do think time is the ultimate factor. I wonder with some of these horses if they mouth the bit BECAUSE they like it and can't get past the excitement of the new toy. Different bits may work but I don't think you'll find a magic one at this point in time. If he seems happy in it otherwise I would keep on doing what you are doing and just be consistent.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i have not read all posts, but did you try a single jointed snaffle?


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## celestejasper13 (May 16, 2014)

To add to Tiny's post, how about a mullen mouth bit? Maybe he doesn't like the movement, or is just young and playful and is fiddling with the lozenge?

If it were me, I might try him in a hackamore or some other bitless bridle until perhaps he is a little more settled and relaxed. Of course he's young and everything is new to him, so maybe he'd adjust to his schooling better if he didn't have a bit to focus on? I understand that not all horses like bitless and that it's not always possible, but it may be worth a try 

He's beautiful by the way!


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Hi everyone - 

I am back. I wanted to let those of you who so kindly posted your knowledge and experiences were SO appreciated. I took every word to heart and really worked hard to find a resolve with my colt. The picture I posted tells a story. And if a picture is worth a 1,000 words, then a video is worth a 1,000 pictures - after watching myself ride I realize that I needed much more forgiving hands. So i've been much more cognizant of that in my riding. After a bad accident on another horse, I tend to ride a little perchy, and defensively and on a baby thats not good so some of the feedback here helped me to be more aware and really work on this and I beleive we've improved. 

As far as the gelding's mouth - well, I ended up having a equine specialist down from Chicago (I live in Ohio). Even though his teeth had already been recently done, i wanted a second opinion. What he found was several impacted wolf tooth fragments, and several capping teeth :sad: The kid was just uncomfortable. He still pulls his tongue over the bit as an evasion, but now that his mouth isn't so sore its reducing every ride. The dentist also helped me fit him to a proper bit. He choose for me a loose ring snaffle, with a lozenge in the middle. He also measured for proper size (5.25"). 

He also suggested keeping a flash, to urge the horse to accept contact.

Since making these changes I experience the horse pushing into my hand and we've had a lot of improvements. When my boy has a quiet mouth he has a nice relaxed back, and vice versa. It is amazing the way making simple tweaks can work such wonders.

Just wanted to update everyone, and also post this follow up for anyone who ever is experiencing the same as I was with their baby.  

PS - The dentist HATED the Happy Mouth bit, which surprised me. He said once they've been used and there's little marks, they are very uncomfortable for the horse. FYI.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree with most of what you have done, except for that flash nose band.
Tying a horse;'s mouth shut does not teach him to accept a bit, although it forces him to work with a closed mouth, thus giving the illusion that he has accepted the bit
When a horse relaxes, and accepts a bit, working with a quite and close mouth, he does that totally without any devise to force his mouth closed
I do agree not not using 'gimmick bits'. professionals that I know, don't use things like Happy mouth bits-you don't need them. If a horse is trained correctly, he rides in a plain snaffle, happy, on a loose rein, close mouth and relaxed jaw
Gimmicks never replace training!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There are four main reasons a horse evades/resists a bit, by opening mouth, pulling ect
Three are physical, and should be ruled out
=dental problems
- neck , back, or other pain related causes
) bit fit and right bit

Number four, rider error, is by far the greatest component.
Either the rider does not release in time, or releases before that horse is truly giving-ie, horse tosses head, or pulls and rider rewards with release, versus holding and driving horse up with legs, until he becomes soft and gives


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Thanks for the update. Pain will do it every time!! If he is listening to you and behaving ok I wouldn't worry too much about him playing with the bit. He is still a baby and getting the feel of it, and mouthing encourages them to make saliver and not just hold the bit. Personally, I would ditch the noseband. Time enough later if you need to resort to that but with the pain dealt with you probably wont need it.

Oh, and he looks lovely


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

The image is of Sunday. I'm a little softer with my hands, have more "give" in my wrists and elbows always asking/urging/suggesting to push into my hand.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Bumping up to by pass spam


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Starlite said:


> Hi everyone -
> 
> I am back. I wanted to let those of you who so kindly posted your knowledge and experiences were SO appreciated. I took every word to heart and really worked hard to find a resolve with my colt. The picture I posted tells a story. And if a picture is worth a 1,000 words, then a video is worth a 1,000 pictures - after watching myself ride I realize that I needed much more forgiving hands. So i've been much more cognizant of that in my riding. After a bad accident on another horse, I tend to ride a little perchy, and defensively and on a baby thats not good so some of the feedback here helped me to be more aware and really work on this and I beleive we've improved.
> 
> ...



What a great update! Glad it is going so well for you and neat to know about to.

I have also had the "well his teeth were JUST checked so should be fine but oh look, some problems...oh" lol.

It's amazing that the dentist was able to help you so exactly.

And again.... a flash is NOT to keep the mouth closed..


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Glad you found the solutions, and they did fall in those four main reasons!
Far as that noseband, I am not going to argue that point, as I know they are used, English'
I come mainly from a western background, and since we can't show with a nose band or cavasson, it is best to also not train with one, and I have found it very true, that when a young horse accepts a bit and relaxes, he learns to work with a quiet, soft and closed mouth all on his own
For me, not using a nose band, creates much more feel and timing
Of course, you are riding English, so the noseband thing does not apply, but wanted to give a different perspective, esp for anyone reading thread and wanting to train a soft horse western>


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Glad you found the solutions, and they did fall in those four main reasons!
> Far as that noseband, I am not going to argue that point, as I know they are used, English'
> I come mainly from a western background, and since we can't show with a nose band or cavasson, it is best to also not train with one, and I have found it very true, that when a young horse accepts a bit and relaxes, he learns to work with a quiet, soft and closed mouth all on his own
> For me, not using a nose band, creates much more feel and timing
> Of course, you are riding English, so the noseband thing does not apply, but wanted to give a different perspective, esp for anyone reading thread and wanting to train a soft horse western>



What sort of bit are you riding in..? A curb? A solid curb, or jointed like s billy Allen or? Bits that work with a curb chain or strap will not need a nose band at all. Right? But a true snaffle , used with direct reining, may function better with a noseband , not necessarily a flash . I don't use a flash, but I do use a caveson noseband, and a chin strap.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

There are horses in this world with low palettes or thick tongues. Have those things been looked at?

What about his caps? Is he shedding caps and just plain uncomfortable with something in his mouth?

Apologies if these things have already been mentioned. I'm not reading thru two pages of this stuff just to find out-----------


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Yes his mouth was very sore. He had caps, I think 2 or three then I found a tooth in the arena ? But also he had impacted fragments from when his wolf teeth were pulled. He was very sore. It got so bad that before I had the dental specialist down I wasn't putting anything in his mouth until the dentist could come and look at him because I suspected he was in a lot pain. After we got that cleared up he improved dramatically.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

And the person I used is amazing. I highly recommend him. Anyone in the Great Lakes region should use this man for teeth. His business is based out of Illinois and it's called Hippologic. Amazing equine dentistry.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Nosebands are not for keeping the mouth closed, ever, regardless of discipline or type.


If he's got a noisy mouth, use a quiet bit. A mullen or low port or something like that. He might just not like things moving around in his mouth. He's also pretty young, he might just be being a young horse.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

palogal said:


> Nosebands are not for keeping the mouth closed, ever, regardless of discipline or type.
> 
> 
> If he's got a noisy mouth, use a quiet bit. A mullen or low port or something like that. He might just not like things moving around in his mouth. He's also pretty young, he might just be being a young horse.


No, we are using it to stabilize the bit. We are currently using a loose ring with a lozenge.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Starlite said:


> And the person I used is amazing. I highly recommend him. Anyone in the Great Lakes region should use this man for teeth. His business is based out of Illinois and it's called Hippologic. Amazing equine dentistry.


Send him to MA? lol


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

palogal said:


> Nosebands are not for keeping the mouth closed, ever, regardless of discipline or type.
> 
> 
> If he's got a noisy mouth, use a quiet bit. A mullen or low port or something like that. He might just not like things moving around in his mouth. He's also pretty young, he might just be being a young horse.


 I would have to disagree with that assumption:
Here is a link on nosebands

from Wikipedia :

Uses of the noseband[edit]
Today, the noseband has several uses:

First, to give a balanced and traditionally correct appearance to the horse's turnout at shows. When raised high, it can make a long-nosed horse's face look shorter and more proportional. Various positions up and down the nose may help the face look more handsome, and a wide noseband can make a heavy head appear more delicate.
Second, to keep the horse's mouth closed or at least prevent a horse from evading the bit by opening the mouth too far. It can sometimes prevent the horse from putting its tongue over the bit and avoiding pressure in that manner.
Third, the noseband is also used to help stop a horse from pulling. A correctly-fitted noseband can be used instead of a stronger bit, which makes it a valuable option for riders that want more control, but do not want to back their horse off, that is, to make the horse afraid to go forward, especially when jumping, which is often an undesirable consequence when the horse is placed in a strong or harsh bit.
Fourth, it can be an attachment for other equipment, such as a standing martingale or shadow roll.
It is also valuable for young horses just learning to go "on the bit", as it supports the jaw and helps the horse to relax its masseter muscle, and flex softly at the poll.
In some riding styles, a noseband is added simply for decoration and is not attached to the bridle or adjusted to serve any useful purpose.
There is a correlation between the sensitivity of a noseband and the amount of tension needed in the reins to obtain a response from the horse. In a 2011 study of horses being ridden in English riding equipment with the noseband in one of three adjacent adjustments, greater rein tension was needed to get a response from the horses when they had the looser adjustment. However, the study did not go on to examine the effects of no noseband at all or a very tight adjustment.[2] Thus, nosebands may add some pressure to the nose when the reins are applied, depending on adjustment, style and the degree to which the horse resists the bit. With a soft leather noseband on a well-trained horse, the effect is minimal.

A bridle does not necessarily need a noseband, and many bridles, such as those used in Western riding, flat racing, or endurance riding, do not have one. Some horses shown in-hand do not use a noseband in order to better show off the animal's head. Many old paintings also depict a hunting horse without a noseband, since it was not always deemed useful by certain riders.

However, even in disciplines such as western riding, where it is considered a sign of a polished horse to not require a noseband or cavesson, one is often used on horses in training as a precaution to help prevent the horse from learning bad habits such as opening the mouth and evading the bit.


Note the last sentence, and why i and many others strive towards our horses learning to keep that mouth closed without an artificial aid, as that is how we must show. Never say never, and, again, itr depends. English horses are never expected to ride without a noseband or a cavasson, hense the difference


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Thank you Smilie. The whole "no flash" trend in this thread was getting a bit frustrating. The flash is widely misunderstood, as evidenced by several posts here. When used appropriately it is a fine tool. I understand that it is often abused. But as with all things, balance is key. My trainer and I keep this at the forefront of our decisions regarding this colt.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Wikipedia is not a valid source, sorry. 
Look at what Klimke and other masters of dressage have to say.
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...iii-riders-and-trainers-their-choice-noseband

This article talks about using a flash to stabilize the jaw and the correct use of nose bands in general. One talks about keeping the mouth "more shut" That may be a language barrier issue as the poster is from Sweden. It doesn't really jive with the rest of her comment.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Starlite said:


> No, we are using it to stabilize the bit. We are currently using a loose ring with a lozenge.


A loose ring and a lozenge give quite a bit of play in the bit,which is great for some horses, not so much for fussy ones. If he doesn't like that, you can try a more stable cheek piece, like a D ring, eggbutt or a full cheek.
You an also use a more stable mouth piece like a two piece or a mullen mouth.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Toss me in with the folks who don't understand the whole 'use a strap around the mouth to prevent the horse from rejecting the bit' argument, even if it comes from a source as reputable as Wikipedia.

Last fall, I moved Bandit to a French link D-ring. He was fine for a few rides, but after 10-12 he started the "Nyah-Nyah-Nyah-Nyah" thing. Put him back into a Billy Allen snaffle:








​ 
and his mouth went quiet again.

There are exceptions to just about every rule, but my first reaction to a horse trying to get the bit off his tongue would be to look at hands, style of riding and the bit rather than closing the mouth with leather. A horse can eat weeds with a bit in his mouth:








​ 
So if the horse is unhappy with having a bit there, it seems reasonable to ask, "Why?" instead of "How do I stop him?"

BTW - a double jointed snaffle puts more pressure on the tongue and less on the bars. If the horse doesn't like tongue pressure, then a french link is a bad choice of bit. A single joint might work better. My mare's favorite snaffle was a Waterford D-ring. She disliked french links, although she eventually learned to tolerate them.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

We've tried single, double, lozenge, no break, d-ring, loose ring, mullen, happy mouth...lol

Bottom line is that he's young. We've eliminated all medical issues and continue to see steady improvement with the correction of several issues regarding his teeth. The hands and style of riding are not the issue, he is fussy whether he has a rider or not, and he even opens his mouth when lunged with a halter or at liberty in a round-pen. According to everyone who's seen him in person, including dental specialists, vets and top trainers - he is demonstrating the behavior of a young horse. I am considering trying a drop nose band or a micklem bridle, but he HAS been showing improvement, so I am a bit leery of continually changing things when we start to see progress.


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## Windwalker (Feb 10, 2016)

*No bit*



Starlite said:


> I have a question. I have a 3 year old colt who is amazing. Great mind, very willing. He is perfect. He has 1 small issue. He WONT stop trying to get his tongue over his bit. When I'm riding him his mouth is constantly gaping open. We've (trainer and I) begun using a flash to encourage him to carry the bit, and he's still struggling against the flash. He's had his teeth done. He's had recent chiro. His saddle is custom made to his back. I'm a fairly decent rider and light in my hands. Any advice? Will it just take time for my baby to accept carrying a bit? Picture shown is a rare moment where he's carrying the bit nicely. Usually his mouth is wide open.
> 
> I'm currently using a Sprenger KK ultra D Ring with a lozenge. I've tried the same bit but with a loose ring and I've tried a rubber bit, a snaffle as well.
> 
> ...


Try using no bit. I have never used a bit on my horses and never will because they bruise the horses mouth and most people do not take time to warm the bit up when it is cold.


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## Windwalker (Feb 10, 2016)

*Training*



Starlite said:


> We've tried single, double, lozenge, no break, d-ring, loose ring, mullen, happy mouth...lol
> 
> Bottom line is that he's young. We've eliminated all medical issues and continue to see steady improvement with the correction of several issues regarding his teeth. The hands and style of riding are not the issue, he is fussy whether he has a rider or not, and he even opens his mouth when lunged with a halter or at liberty in a round-pen. According to everyone who's seen him in person, including dental specialists, vets and top trainers - he is demonstrating the behavior of a young horse. I am considering trying a drop nose band or a micklem bridle, but he HAS been showing improvement, so I am a bit leery of continually changing things when we start to see progress.


A well trained horse is well behaved horse. I have never seen a horse that works well with any bit.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

have you tried eliminating the noseband? it's possible the noseband is pressing the cheek of the horse against his teeth.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie, most, in fact almost all, of the horses I know (mostly English some western) would not gape their mouth without a noseband, and yes, I've tried it.. The ones that would you see a clear effort to gape (bracing against) with the noseband. It's not really some magic thing.

Yes it IS used as a bandaid, but that is NOT the intended purpose nor the proper use.

"Toss me in with the folks who don't understand the whole 'use a strap around the mouth to prevent the horse from rejecting the bit' argument" That's because there is no argument. That is the IMPROPER use. IF that is why you are using it then you absolutely shouldn't be using it. The OP already said that that was not why she is using it so why is that repeatedly brought up?

I completely agree with Starlite, he is just a young horse that is learning.

"So if the horse is unhappy with having a bit there, it seems reasonable to ask, "Why?" instead of "How do I stop him?""
--->
"he even opens his mouth when lunged with a halter or at liberty in a round-pen." The OP is asking why....hence the thread.

Some horses are just mouthy. Ever seen a horse "air biting" (as in flexing his jaw, not actually air biting)? This is a similar thing just under saddle. Not uncommon...


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Windwalker said:


> A well trained horse is well behaved horse. I have never seen a horse that works well with any bit.


I don't understand this. Are you saying any bitted horse (99% of riding) by default does not "work well"?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> I don't understand this. Are you saying any bitted horse (99% of riding) by default does not "work well"?


I am also in the camp of the puzzled, and will add my slant on that statement.
Any well trained horse should also be able to be ridden bittless, or even advance to riding without anything on the head, BUT, precluding any dental issues, ANY WELL trained horse should also be able to be ridden correctly in a bit

When I am told that a horse 'does not like abit, has a mouth that is too soft for a bit , then I see a horse that is not educated correctly to a bit, thus has an uneducated mouth, and/or ridden by someone without feel, not knowing how to use abit correctly
(of course disclaimer-providing no mouth issue, or past history of someone abusing that horse by improper use of a bit )
Nope-someone telling me a horse HAS to be ridden bittless, doe snot give me an impression of a well trained horse!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Gaping a mouth can also become a learned behavior, thus a habit.
There is also the rare horse that hangs his tongue out when ridden, purely out of habit.
I have trained many young horses in that 30 plus year time frame. Yes, some were more mouthy in the beginning, and there was a period were I used a cavasson under my western snaffle bridle, until I took more clinics with some very good western trainers.
Their stance proved true. When a horse truly relaxes, becomes soft in his entire body, he will also become soft and quiet in his mouth and face, and work with a quiet mouth all on his own
Larry Trocha also explains that concept in one of his training videos.
Perhaps, it also helps you to believe and trust in the truth of this concept, when you show in disciplines where you can't use a noseband, and where a quiet and closed mouth is rewarded
I also ride my young show horses out, soon as they are going well, on a loose rein, letting them relax, look at the scenery, and that alone gets their attention away from just that bit in their mouth.
I think asking a young horse to go into fram too soon, using constant contact, can also be a huge factor, and how that bit is adjusted. 
I let a young horse carry that bit, soon as possible, and never have a wrinkle in the corner of the mouth
I guess what I'm saying, now that dental issues have been addressed, I would stop trying to fix the problem by concentrating on the mouth. Maybe ride the horse fora while in a bosal, giving his mouth a chance for a fresh start, and get him soft in his face and body, before using abit again.


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## Starlite (Jan 25, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Gaping a mouth can also become a learned behavior, thus a habit.
> There is also the rare horse that hangs his tongue out when ridden, purely out of habit.
> I have trained many young horses in that 30 plus year time frame. Yes, some were more mouthy in the beginning, and there was a period were I used a cavasson under my western snaffle bridle, until I took more clinics with some very good western trainers.
> Their stance proved true. When a horse truly relaxes, becomes soft in his entire body, he will also become soft and quiet in his mouth and face, and work with a quiet mouth all on his own
> ...


According to my trainer, the nervousness about the bit will subside "on the trails" exactly as you have outlined above.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Starlite said:


> We've tried single, double, lozenge, no break, d-ring, loose ring, mullen, happy mouth...lol
> 
> Bottom line is that he's young. We've eliminated all medical issues and continue to see steady improvement with the correction of several issues regarding his teeth. The hands and style of riding are not the issue, he is fussy whether he has a rider or not, and he even opens his mouth when lunged with a halter or at liberty in a round-pen. According to everyone who's seen him in person, including dental specialists, vets and top trainers - he is demonstrating the behavior of a young horse. I am considering trying a drop nose band or a micklem bridle, but he HAS been showing improvement, so I am a bit leery of continually changing things when we start to see progress.


Has he ever been properly 'mouthed'. Or did you just put a bit in his mouth and expect him to know what to do?

A hackamore or halter is not the answer to everything it just avoids a problem. Unless there is no issue and it is a choice.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Starlite said:


> We've tried single, double, lozenge, no break, d-ring, loose ring, mullen, happy mouth...lol
> 
> Bottom line is that he's young. We've eliminated all medical issues and continue to see steady improvement with the correction of several issues regarding his teeth. The hands and style of riding are not the issue, he is fussy whether he has a rider or not, and he even opens his mouth when lunged with a halter or at liberty in a round-pen. According to everyone who's seen him in person, including dental specialists, vets and top trainers - he is demonstrating the behavior of a young horse. I am considering trying a drop nose band or a micklem bridle, but he HAS been showing improvement, so I am a bit leery of continually changing things when we start to see progress.


Just give him time. The bit is awkward at first.


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