# Matchmaker-Posh stallion choices



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

IMO, My Final Notice is the best of all of them. He's a winner, he's produced winners and $1750 is not a large stud fee. If you call them and talk to them about your mare, they may have a discount or 2 they'd give you, most stallion owners do. I have never paid the posted breeding fee for a stallion, ever. All that said, you get what you pay for and the shipping of semen and AI for your mare is going to be expensive. I think we figured around $7500 - 10K to get a foal on the ground from an outside stallion, if things go well and you don't have breeding issues with the mare.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> IMO, My Final Notice is the best of all of them. He's a winner, he's produced winners and $1750 is not a large stud fee. If you call them and talk to them about your mare, they may have a discount or 2 they'd give you, most stallion owners do. I have never paid the posted breeding fee for a stallion, ever. All that said, you get what you pay for and the shipping of semen and AI for your mare is going to be expensive. I think we figured around $7500 - 10K to get a foal on the ground from an outside stallion, if things go well and you don't have breeding issues with the mare.


Yeah, he really is. All of his offspring have the same movement as him, and he's extremely healthy. My Final Notice is my fave of all of them, Dynamic Breeze is my 2nd fave. Him and MFN are related. I think MFN would be an "uncle" to him. Dynamic in the Dark's offspring seem to come along great.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Also, on No. 4, I wouldn't touch him without a 5 panel test showing him N/N on at least HYPP but you need to know the others too. He's got a lot of Impressive in his lines, which I thought from seeing his name.

Dynamic In The Dark is My Final Notice's father and Dynamic Deluxe's grandsire. You need the 5 panel test on him too, Line bred Poco Bueno, so HERDA is a concern. Your mare has Poco Bueno in her lines too, so you should test her as well, 5 panel and LWO to be on the safe side.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Also, on No. 4, I wouldn't touch him without a 5 panel test showing him N/N on at least HYPP but you need to know the others too. He's got a lot of Impressive in his lines, which I thought from seeing his name.


Yes, all of them are N/N on their 5 panel test. He is not related to Impressive. He's got Zippo Pine Bar, Blazing Hot, Big Investment, Docs Hotrodder in his lines.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Are you referring to Blaze N Style? This isn't him? Blaze N Style Quarter Horse


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Are you referring to Blaze N Style? This isn't him? Blaze N Style Quarter Horse


No, It's Blazing n Style owned by Gemma Hudson. The lady I work with is a director through APHA and knows Hudson personally. She has bred multiple mares to him and the foals have come out very nice but like I said, I'm not a fan of him.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SummerAwaits said:


> No, It's Blazing n Style owned by Gemma Hudson. The lady I work with is a director through APHA and knows Hudson personally. She has bred multiple mares to him and the foals have come out very nice but like I said, I'm not a fan of him.


OH OK, I was looking at the wrong pedigree. Yours I'd just be concerned for HERDA, I'd be concerned for HERDA on all of them.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> OH OK, I was looking at the wrong pedigree. Yours I'd just be concerned for HERDA, I'd be concerned for HERDA on all of them.


She does not have HERDA, nor do they.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SummerAwaits said:


> She does not have HERDA, nor do they.


As long as you have the test results, you're good to go. How about LWO for any, all of them, have they been tested?


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> As long as you have the test results, you're good to go. How about LWO for any, all of them, have they been tested?


Posh is LWO negative. No matter who I breed her to, the foal will be safe.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Ok, then you're good to go! Pick your fave and see what you get:wink:


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Ok, then you're good to go! Pick your fave and see what you get:wink:


Thank you, I appreciate it.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

SummerAwaits said:


> Posh is LWO negative. No matter who I breed her to, the foal will be safe.


Posh was tested for frame? I am surprised she would get a negative result because she looks to have frame characteristics in her markings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> Posh was tested for frame? I am surprised she would get a negative result because she looks to have frame characteristics in her markings.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Posh IS frame overo but she is negative for the LWO gene. Frame overos can be negative or positive for it. Posh is the lucky one that is negative for it.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

SummerAwaits said:


> Posh IS frame overo but she is negative for the LWO gene. Frame overos can be negative or positive for it. Posh is the lucky one that is negative for it.


Frame overo IS LWO. There is no way she came up N/N for LWO when she looks like that. If she did, I would be asking for a retest.

I'm also not sure where you are getting smoky black for your color possibilities. Smoky black is black + cream. Your mare does not look like she carries cream and out of those 4 studs, only those grullos _might_ be smoky grullo only because I do not know their pedigrees or get. I do know My Final Notice does not carry cream.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Poseidon said:


> Frame overo IS LWO. There is no way she came up N/N for LWO when she looks like that. If she did, I would be asking for a retest.


You can talk to APHA about it. I guess they have a fluke in their program


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Did you send in her Lwo overo test or is so done just telling you she's neg for it?

I'm with the others... I'd want a retest.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

SummerAwaits said:


> You can talk to APHA about it. I guess they have a fluke in their program


I'd like to see where. Granted, I don't hold the APHA in high authority for color knowledge. I say this as both an APHA member and a genetics enthusiast.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> Did you send in her Lwo overo test or is so done just telling you she's neg for it?
> 
> I'm with the others... I'd want a retest.


I work with horse breeders and I'd like everyone to please stop worrying about Posh's LWO test. I would NEVER take a chance on breeding a horse positive for LWO, plus all these stallions are negative for it. Thank you


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

We worry for a reason. :wink: it's all honest questions since you say she's tested.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Poseidon said:


> Frame overo IS LWO. There is no way she came up N/N for LWO when she looks like that. If she did, I would be asking for a retest.
> 
> I'm also not sure where you are getting smoky black for your color possibilities. Smoky black is black + cream. Your mare does not look like she carries cream and out of those 4 studs, only those grullos _might_ be smoky grullo only because I do not know their pedigrees or get. I do know My Final Notice does not carry cream.


Posh carries a seal brown gene which assists in the creation of a smoky black. By the way, those are color guesses from the horse color calculator. Thank you


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> We worry for a reason. :wink: it's all honest questions since you say she's tested.


I promise Posh and her foal will be safe. Thank you for your concerns though


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SummerAwaits said:


> Posh carries a seal brown gene which assists in the creation of a smoky black. By the way, those are color guesses from the horse color calculator. Thank you


No, seal brown is not in any way related to smoky black.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Chiilaa said:


> No, seal brown is not in any way related to smoky black.


Okay, thank you


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

SummerAwaits said:


> Posh carries a seal brown gene which assists in the creation of a smoky black. By the way, those are color guesses from the horse color calculator. Thank you


You can't get a smokey black unless the sire or dam carries cream. You mare doesn't appear to carry cream to me, but I'm on my phone. Seal brown is not a cream. Seal brown is another form of agouti and also referred to as dark bay or just brown depending on the person.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> You can't get a smokey black unless the site or dam carries cream. You mare doesn't appear to carry cream to me, but I'm on my phone.


for some reason on the color calculator, Posh is dunskin, and it shows nCr for cream. So yes, she could have smoky black because she carries a single dilute gene


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Wait. I'm confused now. Did you test her for cream? Or did you just put her in the calculator as dunskin?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

:think::think:did you have her tested for cream? She doesn't look like a dunskin. She looks like a typical brown dun to me.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Nevermind. Went to look up her pedigree to see if cream was possible and found this:
ChamPaint Equine - Pieces of Hot Scotch She is N/O and negative for cream. Anything regarding smoky black is out.


But in response to your actual question: My Final Notice is the nicest of the stallions.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Ahh. So she is positive for frame.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Poseidon said:


> Nevermind. Went to look up her pedigree to see if cream was possible and found this:
> ChamPaint Equine - Pieces of Hot Scotch She is N/O and negative for cream. Anything regarding smoky black is out.
> 
> 
> But in response to your actual question: My Final Notice is the nicest of the stallions.


Well that's good to hear. I don't want smoky black


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> Ahh. So she is positive for frame.


I don't know if you want me to say hell yeah or what lol because if it makes you feel better then yes, Posh is LW positive. If that makes you feel better


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Forgive me for asking, but why do you consider black an acceptable color for your foal, but not smoky black? Phenotypically, they look the same.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

There is nothing wrong breeding a frame carrier, just as long as the horse they are bred to have tested negative for frame. Frame is a color gene that puts white on a horse with certain characteristics. She is a frame carrier, it is not a disease but is a problem if bred to another frame. 

Color calculators work by you putting the information in. If you breed her to another heterozygous dun, you will have a 75% chance of a foal receiving dun, 25% chance of not getting a dun gene. 25% chance does happen often enough but it is part of the gamble. Just like trying to choose what gender the foal will be. You can stack odds in your favor as some stallions produce more of one gender than the other but it is still a gamble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

:evil:So you've been lying and givin' us the Okey Doke when we're trying to help YOU? You just went into "Got nothing comin'" status with me. Worthless.:evil:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

SummerAwaits said:


> I don't know if you want me to say hell yeah or what lol because if it makes you feel better then yes, Posh is LW positive. If that makes you feel better


We'll you kept saying she was neg for LWO soooo....


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> :evil:So you've been lying and givin' us the Okey Doke when we're trying to help YOU? You just went into "Got nothing comin'" status with me. Worthless.:evil:


You all need to calm down. You guys are going "Gotta find somethin wrong with this thread" status on me. I'm an innocent adult who works with horse breeders here in AZ. Just relax!  Goodnight to all! What a nice laugh I had tonight!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SummerAwaits said:


> You all need to calm down. You guys are going "Gotta find somethin wrong with this thread" status on me. I'm an innocent adult who works with horse breeders here in AZ. Just relax!  Goodnight to all! What a nice laugh I had tonight!


I think you will find that it has nothing to do with a "gotta find something wrong with this thread" mentality. Dreamcatcher had a very long pregnancy with a mare that may have delivered a lethal white foal - she understands very clearly the risks involved, she did not breed the mare, but thankfully the foal was not lethal white.

What it comes down to is that you deliberately mislead the forum when it comes to your mare's lethal white status. Anything else, it wouldn't matter. But lethal white is called that for a reason. If you were to breed her to a stallion with frame as well, you would have a one in four chance of a lethal white foal. And that is a death sentence that can be avoided - if the foal is not euthed soon after birth, they essentially die of colic like symptoms, slowly and painfully. So it is VERY important to everyone involved that full disclosure of the mare and stallion's frame status is had. Imagine for a second that we had recommended a stallion that WAS frame positive, and you went ahead and bred her? How would WE feel about that abuse of trust that would lead us to influencing you in such a disastrous decision?

I hope you wise up to the risks of frame before you breed. I bet a stallion owner would be far less polite about your omission should a lethal white foal be created from your deceit.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

We are upset because the foals die a horrible death. The cant poop, and that is a slow painful death to the foal. It is 100% fatal and avoidable. Its not a horrible thing to have a frame positive horse, it just means you need to breed her to a frame negative horse. Lethal White foals are Homozygous for the frame gene, that means both parents need to be heterozygous for the gene. 

Now that we all know her Frame status we can recommend a stud that will not only compliment your mare, but result in a live foal. You dont want to waste the money, a year of your mare's life, possibly your mare, and your time for a foal that will die in 72 hours if not euthanized.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Chiilaa said:


> I think you will find that it has nothing to do with a "gotta find something wrong with this thread" mentality. Dreamcatcher had a very long pregnancy with a mare that may have delivered a lethal white foal - she understands very clearly the risks involved, she did not breed the mare, but thankfully the foal was not lethal white.
> 
> What it comes down to is that you deliberately mislead the forum when it comes to your mare's lethal white status. Anything else, it wouldn't matter. But lethal white is called that for a reason. If you were to breed her to a stallion with frame as well, you would have a one in four chance of a lethal white foal. And that is a death sentence that can be avoided - if the foal is not euthed soon after birth, they essentially die of colic like symptoms, slowly and painfully. So it is VERY important to everyone involved that full disclosure of the mare and stallion's frame status is had. Imagine for a second that we had recommended a stallion that WAS frame positive, and you went ahead and bred her? How would WE feel about that abuse of trust that would lead us to influencing you in such a disastrous decision?
> 
> I hope you wise up to the risks of frame before you breed. I bet a stallion owner would be far less polite about your omission should a lethal white foal be created from your deceit.


And I am very aware of LW status and would not breed her to a frame overo stallion. I am NOT one to ever let any harm be done to my horses. I never asked for suggestions of other stallions, I simply asked for opinions on THESE stallions. I did not ask for people to question me about her genes. I am human too, just like everyone else here. I am trying to be as polite as possible. This website is obviously not a good environment. Bringing a life into the world should be rewarding  It should be a fun experience  I don't need the harassment. No one is going to bring me down. Posh is the love of my life, and her foal will be too. I am going to ENJOY this experience and have the opportunity to see a soul grow. God Bless, and god bless the little foal that will be born :')


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

SummerAwaits said:


> You all need to calm down. You guys are going "Gotta find somethin wrong with this thread" status on me. I'm an innocent adult who works with horse breeders here in AZ. Just relax!  Goodnight to all! What a nice laugh I had tonight!


It wasn't an idea of finding something wrong, but the information given did not match up and seemed off which brings up questions. 

You have a beautiful mare, frame overo is also popular because of the expressions it can give and it is harder to breed for because homozygous frame is lethal and any foal with 2 copies dies within 72 hours of birth. Learning more about colors and genetics is very important in horse breeding, large numbers of breeders out there still do not understand them. Even long term breeders and vets struggle with color genetics, many horse genetics are newer and expand our knowledge and understanding of how to produce that perfect foal or at least stack the gambling odds in favor of it. Years ago, a long time breeder was shocked when a bay foal was produced from a black stallion and a chestnut mare, they couldn't figure out how the foal ended up bay. Nowadays, we understand so much more with research and know that the chestnut mare had an agouti gene hidden since there was no black to restrict that she passed to the black based foal, causing the black foal to have the black restricted to points. 

With color calculators, don't use dunskin for your mare. Dunskin is black + agouti + cream + dun. Depending on the calculator, the correct choice would be either Dun or Bay Dun. She is technically brown dun, but just remember that brown can look like bay, but tend to have color changes with the seasons and lighter colored soft points. The range of shades brown comes in is very wide, ranging from very light (bay looking) to almost black. 

Your mare has the genetics to produce Black, Brown, Grullo, Brown Dun, with a 50% chance of throwing the frame overo which may cause little to loud coloring. The color choices for foals are the same with the heterozygous duns you posted, the perctages of chance for each color changes depending on the stallion's agouti status.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Op people where ma because the felt deceived. there is a person on this form that had a lethal white foal this year from breeding to frame horses and it was a bit of a sore spot for people. As professional breeders, people on this forum will question the 5 panel testing of a horse for obvious reasons. They don't just pick studs on looks and records, but on if they will produce a healthy foal. 

Yeah you wanted to pick one of the 4 studs but maybe someone thought of an even BETTER stud for your mare? Maybe you would have really liked the stud, but if someone suggested a frame stud they would feel horrible (even if you didn't reed her to it) about even suggesting a frame stud for a frame mare. 

Dont get angry at people on here, there are people on here who have been breeding for 40+ years and have seen a lot of what happens when breeding. They were trying to give you sound advice and felt deceived when you would not tell them.


Now everyone lets put this behind us and suggest a frame negative stud for the mare?


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> It wasn't an idea of finding something wrong, but the information given did not match up and seemed off which brings up questions.
> 
> You have a beautiful mare, frame overo is also popular because of the expressions it can give and it is harder to breed for because homozygous frame is lethal and any foal with 2 copies dies within 72 hours of birth. Learning more about colors and genetics is very important in horse breeding, large numbers of breeders out there still do not understand them. Even long term breeders and vets struggle with color genetics, many horse genetics are newer and expand our knowledge and understanding of how to produce that perfect foal or at least stack the gambling odds in favor of it. Years ago, a long time breeder was shocked when a bay foal was produced from a black stallion and a chestnut mare, they couldn't figure out how the foal ended up bay. Nowadays, we understand so much more with research and know that the chestnut mare had an agouti gene hidden since there was no black to restrict that she passed to the black based foal, causing the black foal to have the black restricted to points.
> 
> ...


Oh wow, Thank you for your constructive criticism. People respond a lot better to constructive criticism. Yes, Posh is negative for her 5 panels, yes she is LWO positive, but like I said, I would never have taken suggestions of stallions that were also LWO positive. I was trying to prevent people from criticizing me for Posh being LWO positive and breeding her, but obviously I get criticized either way. I would never put her or a foal in any danger. I know a lot more than others think. Again though, thank you for being constructive and not just criticizing me, but also helping me. I was told she was dunskin, and I'm surprised you were able to find out she's not! Thank you for that because that helps me a lot. Enjoy your night.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

In the future op people won't criticize you for breeding a LWO positive mare . As long as you know not to breed her to another LWO stud, people wont attack you.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> Op people where ma because the felt deceived. there is a person on this form that had a lethal white foal this year from breeding to frame horses and it was a bit of a sore spot for people. As professional breeders, people on this forum will question the 5 panel testing of a horse for obvious reasons. They don't just pick studs on looks and records, but on if they will produce a healthy foal.
> 
> Yeah you wanted to pick one of the 4 studs but maybe someone thought of an even BETTER stud for your mare? Maybe you would have really liked the stud, but if someone suggested a frame stud they would feel horrible (even if you didn't reed her to it) about even suggesting a frame stud for a frame mare.
> 
> ...


I appreciate you discussing with me, rather than criticizing me. LW is not something to laugh about. I apologize for making people feel deceived. I was trying to prevent commotion but obviously I created more. I am smart enough to know not to breed her to a LWO positive stallion. That's why I'm looking at quarter horses who are not LWO positive. I am up for suggestions, but prefer thoughts on these chosen stallions. I am sorry for the loss. It is a terrible thing. I've seen it happen at the facility too... Poor things can't help it.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SummerAwaits said:


> Oh wow, Thank you for your constructive criticism. People respond a lot better to constructive criticism. Yes, Posh is negative for her 5 panels, yes she is LWO positive, but like I said, I would never have taken suggestions of stallions that were also LWO positive. I was trying to prevent people from criticizing me for Posh being LWO positive and breeding her, but obviously I get criticized either way. I would never put her or a foal in any danger. I know a lot more than others think. Again though, thank you for being constructive and not just criticizing me, but also helping me. I was told she was dunskin, and I'm surprised you were able to find out she's not! Thank you for that because that helps me a lot. Enjoy your night.


No one here is going to criticise you for breeding a LWO positive mare. We are also aware of the dangers, and always ask the status so we know not to look at positive stallions for said mare. That is the only reason we ask.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Chiilaa said:


> No one here is going to criticise you for breeding a LWO positive mare. We are also aware of the dangers, and always ask the status so we know not to look at positive stallions for said mare. That is the only reason we ask.


Thank you for letting me know. I feel a lot better now. I hope all understand that I would not put my mare/foal in that position.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

If admin/moderator would please allow me to edit my thread, it would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to fix some things and get Posh's pictures back up, thank you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DeliciousD (Feb 25, 2013)

Just be aware, a horse can be positive for frame without it being expressed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

NOTE
Giving advice as part of a learning exercise and giving advice based on concern are good and helpful - but only if done in the spirit of friendship and with the right attitude.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

jaydee said:


> NOTE
> Giving advice as part of a learning exercise and giving advice based on concern are good and helpful - but only if done in the spirit of friendship and with the right attitude.


Amen to that!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Like everyone else, I originally posted because between this forum and different facebook pages, I watched the short lives of at least 3 lethal white foals within a couple of weeks. It was entirely heartbreaking to watch. It is absolutely wonderful that you are aware of that risk because the people who bred those foals were not and have had to learn a horrible result the hard way. 

As for your color choices for the stallions:

1. Black, brown, brown dun, grullo. 50% chance of frame. 

2. Black, brown, brown dun, grullo, blue roan, brown roan, brown dun roan, grullo roan. 50% chance of frame. 

3. Grullo, brown dun. 50% chance of frame.

4. I can't find any concrete genetic testing on him. But brown dun overo + bay would be black, bay, brown, grullo, bay dun, brown dun. 50% of frame. And with him it confuses me because he's listed as bay overo on his facebook page, but there is no testing to say which gene he is. He IS N/N for LWO and based on his facial markings, I'd have to say splash. Additionally, the only thing in his pedigree that I can find that would have definite color in QHs is the Skipper W line on his dam's side, which must have been passed up very minimally based on the pictures allbreed has of that line. So if that's the case, you also have a 50% of splash from him. If you're looking for the most white potential, he's probably your best bet.


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## SummerAwaits (May 18, 2013)

Poseidon said:


> Like everyone else, I originally posted because between this forum and different facebook pages, I watched the short lives of at least 3 lethal white foals within a couple of weeks. It was entirely heartbreaking to watch. It is absolutely wonderful that you are aware of that risk because the people who bred those foals were not and have had to learn a horrible result the hard way.
> 
> As for your color choices for the stallions:
> 
> ...


Sounds good. Thanks for finding some info on the bay. I could've asked my friend, but he really wasn't an interest to me. I think I'm going to go with Dynamic Breeze or My Final Notice. I like Dynamic Breeze's slick look. Him and Posh's body build/confirmation should match well together. They are sending some videos of him. His show career was ended abruptly... he fractured his shoulder in his younger years, but he was previously shown in halter and doing very well. From what it sounds like, he's really nice. I'm going to ask for references so I can go on a search for his offspring.


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