# The hypocrisy of Natural Horsemanship



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Amen!!


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## PaintingPintos (Jul 24, 2012)

They make other cowboys sound like big meanies because they're trying to sell themselves.... everybody tries to do that. It's a business. I don't like it, but at least the methods work. Hell, all methods work if they're do the right way. Some are bad methods, others good, but in the end it all boils down to who does it right.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I did hear him say "the old traditional cowboys". When horses were plentiful and cheap and little time to break them in they were saddled and bronced out and often a quirt was used. It was all about dominance. Clinton is working with out of control horses that have become dangerous. No pussy footin' around horses like these.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Yes, they are dangerous to their owners now.. But I guarantee you that 99% of their problems were created by that same owner.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Hey now... it was the horse's idea to buck and flip over - not his! That's why it's Natural Horsemanship - the horse NATURALLY had crazy thoughts.

All joking aside, I don't like making blanket statements of "All people do this" or "all people do that". Not all people who use NH methods apply them in the same way - just like all "cowboys" don't train in exactly the same way.

Really, it works both ways. People have to approach learning about something as opinion-driven as horse training with an open mind and open ears.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

In the 1800s, a wild horse might get 3 or at best 4 sessions with a bronc buster before being considered broke enough for a common ranch hand. Not many folks can get a wild horse adequate for riding in a few hours. It was a very different world, and we shouldn't judge them by modern standards. On my tough days, I'm not 1% as tough as the average ranch hand was then.

There are modern cowboys who are jerks, but a smart fellow told me in my teens that in any occupation, at least 30% of the guys are jerks. Some professions go much higher. I've got a horse that was spurred bloody by a cowboy, but the same horse had been ridden by a number of cowboys before that without injury. In fact, all that previous riding had left him a fine, well mannered horse...although it only took one bad one to cause him harm.










It is worth remembering that modern NH is entertainment. The difference between the lady who trained my horses and the TV trainers is that she isn't on TV, she takes more time and gets paid a whole lot less. She also doesn't have to bad-mouth anyone. Most of her clients come from satisfied customers...

I think Clinton is good enough, tho, to knock off the bad-mouthing.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I mostly agree. But, I do think there are better male riders than CA. They are trainers first and clinicians second (or not at all). Men like Al Dunning, Les Vogt, Bob Avila, etc.

In defense of CA 'bucking out horses'. In the video, he is dealing with badly spoiled horses. Dealing with horses that already know how to buck someone off is a LOT different than the old timers getting on an un-handled horse and riding it out with no pre-training of any kind. When I was a kid, it was not unusual for 'cowboys' to bring in a 5 year old un-handled horse, rope it, throw it, saddle it and ride it all in one day. The next day they would go out and gather cattle on one of these horses. 

This is the 'old' image of a cowboy that, unfortunately, is still around today even though that kind of cowboy has long since disappeared. I can remember when the big ranches never halter-broke a colt until it was 5 and ready to 'break'. Thankfully, that has changed over the years --- but the image has not.

I'm afraid there are fewer options for fixing badly spoiled horses. One still has to get a lot rougher on them to make them 'want' to do things in a more acceptable way.

As far as calling it 'Natural Horsemanship'. There is nothing 'natural' about it. I have always just called it 'common sense horsemanship'. You use a horse's natural instincts, its 'flight and herd instincts', to 'teach' it to interact with us in an acceptable way that is advantageous to us and gets a job done that we have designated for it to do.

You tell me there is anything 'Natural' about that.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I can't listen to the current clinicians. They talk too much.

I do get tired of hearing cowboys bashed. Whether current ones or the old timers who were supposedly just a notch above Neanderthals. Good cowboys were good horsemen. I read a lot of the history from my area, and abuse of horses was never tolerated. Horses weren't that easy to come by, even if they were taken from feral herds. Criminy, you really think some idiot would abuse a horse just to abuse it when that was his only way home? You really think a rancher would let a $30/mo hand injure a horse? Horses have always gone on the asset side of the ledger. For that reason alone they were treated okay, not to mention beating doesn't work and never has.

You see old photos of horses bucking. Cameras weren't that available and developing photographs was quite a process. Photographers took photos of unusual occurances and only developed the most unusual of them. A horse who was a known and good bucker was unusual. Not many photos of a bunch of grade geldings and mares plodding through the dust after cattle. But that most of what ranching is. 

Sure more of the horses back then bucked bad. I think a lot of that has been bred out of both the QHs and TBs. But we still have some that are quite prone to buck. You just have to work with it.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I know this is wrong of me, but the clip in the video of the horse chasing the woman around the round pen, had me rolling with laughter.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Cherie said:


> I mostly agree. But, I do think there are better male riders than CA. They are trainers first and clinicians second (or not at all). Men like Al Dunning, Les Vogt, Bob Avila, etc.


Just to clarify, I was talking about riding (as far as having a good seat). I don't think he can out-train these guys at all


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am not a 'natural' fan, there are a lot of things I do not like about CAs methods - chasing a horse around on a very tight circle for one thing. Mostly I dislike the 'my way or no way' hype.

I have started hundreds of horses, most are easy if handles correctly, so me will question why certain things are being done and very few, hate the idea. All are different.

What CA has is the ability to read the minute body language signs and correct before things happen. That is all.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> I know this is wrong of me, but the clip in the video of the horse chasing the woman around the round pen, had me rolling with laughter.


Me Too!

He just wants one more treat! Maybe she did not pet him and scratch him in the right place. He really isn't trying to hurt her.
Cherie


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The woman getting chased - this was her fault. Inexperienced people will run if a horse approaches boldly, thinking it will run over them, rather than step toward the horse with arms up. Horses don't like to get hit in the face and will veer away. This is handler error. If it happens again the horse has an aha moment and turns it into a game and realizes it can chase it's handler away because of her lower rank. In the video we are seeing this in action. In time he becomes dangerous and he continues to assert his dominance.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

It is wrong of me as well AlexS but I have to admit I laughed as well. 

I personally don't see anything wrong with the way that CA describes cowboys, I wish I could set my fear aside and get on a horse and ride it out lol it's because of my healthy fear and others as well that horses become spoiled babies that tell us what to do. 

In the beginning when I first started out the lunge whip looked like a torture device. I put my own feelings inside of the horses head and that is a mistake.

I actually thought that you get on a horse and let them have their buck on when they stop then they are trained lmbo man I was so naive. I thought that natural horsemanship was the long way around the mountain for people who were afraid to hit the dirt. 

It wasn't until my gelding would lift his leg like he was going to kick out at me that I finally wised up and said enough. 

Without people like CA I would never have been able to get past a lot of stuff. I'm not going to lie, the more that I'm entertained. the more, I pay attention when watching shows and video's. 

The only difference I see to the cowboy way vs natural horsemanship is one puts the stress on the horse from the saddle and the other from the ground. So when CA says that the cowboy days are over I take it as a lot of people aren't cowboys and they need another method to be able to take control of a horse and ride.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

That stigma will always be placed on cowboys, just like Dressage or Show Jumpers are stuck up princesses spending daddys money, team ropers whip their horses everytime they miss and all barrel horses are crazy and out of control.

Even back when the times, the horses and the people were tougher there was an appreciation for the ranch horse. There is a book written by the late Will James from the 40s called "Horses I Have Known".
When he speaks about the tough dirty ones there is admiration for them. Granted Will had the tendency to over exaggerate in his stories but you get the point.
I consisder my husband to be a good cowboy, and the one thing that I have noticed about good cowboys that I admire is the ability to see the good in all their horses. My husband can appreciate and can find something good in every horse he rides rather than pick them apart. He had horses that would try to peel out about the time he would get something roped, he would take a few turns, sit on his coils and let them hit the end. Instead of getting mad and harpoon the **** out him, he would just giggle get by the best he could and love the things the horses did well.

Ranch horses may not be rewarded in cookies and lengthy grooming sessions, but after a long hot day of mashing cows we might unsaddle in the shade give them a drink from the ditch, before making the long trot back to trailer were the ice chest awaits on the back of the flat bed. And that is enough for them.

Abuse simply isn't tolerated. Even riding a sore or lame horse is a big no no as as owning a saddle that will sore a horses back. Bsms, if the guy that did that to your horse worked anywhere that I know of he would of been ****canned in a hurry. Word gets around quick and he wouldn't of been able to work anywhere within earshot. 

I am not saying that cowboying is all butterflies and sunshine. They expect a lot out of the horses, but they appreciate it too. A cowboy in the simplest terms is a caretaker of livestock. Horses are not only livestock but a partner.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Training.. is not about conflict.. it is about applying pressure to get a response. If you don't know when to apply the pressure, how to apply pressure or how much pressure is needed you won't train the horse. To know that you have to be able to read the horse. 

I never heard of "Natural Horsemanship" until I got looking at some on line stuff. 

I just trained the horse.....


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Well now I don't feel bad about laughing when the horse was chasing the lady. I laughed too. It was like the horse was using NH methods on HER to establish his dominance by keeping her feet moving.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

My biggest problem with NH is how people I've known take to it. They mostly do two things. Get militant about any punishment to a horse no matter how mild. Second is treat and train their horse like a giant dog they dont ride. Which brings up another point, most people I know that have gotten into NH are afraid to ride.

Back to the dog thing. If you're going to train and treat your horse like a dog then go get a dog. They are a heap cheaper to buy, keep and feed. Then you also don't have to fend off questions from people on why you are not hopping on their back and riding instead.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Cherie said:


> Me Too!
> 
> He just wants one more treat! Maybe she did not pet him and scratch him in the right place. He really isn't trying to hurt her.
> Cherie


Totally off topic... But when I was a kid and was bad, my Mum would do the 'wait til your Dad gets home thing'. My sister and I would run to the far side of the dining room table and wait there, Dad would chase us around the table, pulling out chairs to slow us down before we finally got our wallop, which would of course be harder because we had just peed him off too. It never worked too well for me.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

The true cowboy way unfortunately has been given a bad rap because that's how the cowboy way of breaking and training were portrayed on TV, but not the true cowboy way. Natural training has been around for as long as mankind has been ridding horses even a lot of Mexican training has gotten a bad rap. I have known some very old timers including my own father, who broke and trained horses and heard over and over again almost the same story. They didn't roughshod the horses, Their horses were their companions and their lives and lively hood evens depended on them. Their horses had to have a loyalty and trust that, that kind of training that would break the trust, loyalty between them.


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## littrella (Aug 28, 2010)

The only thing I can say for CA & the like is they have a way of breaking down things so thick headed, purdy poney lovers like me, can understand. LOL


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I LOVED the video! 

I've heard a few bad things about CA, and I've never met him in person, but everything I have seen of him on video/TV has left me feeling he is a great horseman.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

AlexS said:


> I know this is wrong of me, but the clip in the video of the horse chasing the woman around the round pen, had me rolling with laughter.


**** I had to actually go watch the video after reading that, and yes, funny.


I don't know much about CA, but I like his enthusiasm, and from that little clip he reminds me a lot of Cesar Millan, he is a great reader of those little signs that we may miss, and he deals with stuff at that stage.

I am just learning that with Ben and Willow, now I have moved from kindergarten (Mr G) into first grade, and life has got tougher, these horses are less forgiving, and they point out when I make a mistake, and if you miss the clue that something is going to happen, then you have a wreck of some sort to deal with.

NH not NH, I actually don't care as long as you are producing a horse that someone else has a chance of handling.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm late to the party so I don't know if this has been covered,

But Clinton ridicules the "bucking it out". But he's not afraid to get after a horse that's being disrespectful in order to fix the problem. If you wath him starting colts there is SO much going on, and never once does he "buck it out". I don't understand where the hypocrite part comes in, it's two differant things.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with Cherie; CA is by no means the best male rider out there.

And his ego is just about as big as Australia. If I were a horse, I'd rather be the horse trained and ridden by Chris Cox or Buck Branaman than the one trained/ridden by CA.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I am not sure what you seem to think he did so wrong? Those horses have learned from their owners that they can get away with this stuff. They are dangours horses. You have to be just as forceful as they are. 

Keep in mind that CA did not flip that horse. The horse fliped himself. I have have a horse who did that too. They work so hard to get out of somthing that they end up doing things. SO what? Let the horse contiue to get away with it? Not here. If those has been my horses CA would have looked like an angle.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

trailhorserider said:


> I LOVED the video!
> 
> I've heard a few bad things about CA, and I've never met him in person, but everything I have seen of him on video/TV has left me feeling he is a great horseman.


 
I agree. I am not a big CA fan. However what he does works. They are not new by any means. They are things I have been doing long before I ever heard of CA. 

Those horses where not your tipical easy going horses and if he did not push them and apply pressure and make them work they would have just kept running over people.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

why do people act like *all* NH trainers act like they invented NH ? i dont get where people are getting that, i only know of one trainer (maybe 2 if you count rick gore) who act like that.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I am not sure any of them actually think they invented NH for the most part. I think PP has gotten the big head and most of what he does is more marketing then anything.

I think that the first big mistake that most of these trainers do is put the NH label on these things.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Biggest difference I see between NH and "cowboys" is: the old-fashioned cowboy follows tradition (noting that "buck and spur" is not being everyone's idea of tradition; but I've seen training like that, and successfully too) and NH follows the horse's nature. So while both can be effective, the NH trainer has more options, since he adapts his methods to each particular horse. Of course he can judge wrongly; and cowboys aren't totally insensitive; but just in general, that's how I see it.

(I'm afraid I had to laugh looking at that young man's expression..."The worst that can happen. . .")


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Since each and every horse is different it takes different ways of getting the training across to the horse. Personally I prefer a way that teaches respect and trust in me but the horse never looses it's spirit nor it's horse sense.


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

Okay I haven't read all of the replies, so I'm just responding to the OP. That is not Clinton bucking out those horses, those are showing the problem horses and how they behave with their owners. Clinton does not get on horses until they've had a lot of groundwork done. Same goes for the horse crashing into the fence, that is the man with dark hair that gets interviewed.

Secondly, I don't see how that was "bashing" cowboys. He said "the traditional cowboy way" and by that he refers to how cowboys USED TO just buck out horses, he's not claiming that that is what all cowboys people do now. Also, he said that that time is over, meaning it is in the past and he is not referring to modern cowboys. Either way, just getting on a horse and bucking them out IS wrong and it was good for him to say that. 

Finally, Clinton has no problem being a physical with a horse because he believes in safety. You CAN NOT let a horse get away with kicking out at you or not moving his feet when you tell them because that leads to getting hurt. And of course he has to use a whip, otherwise he'd have to get way too close and be much less effective. 

I just spent last weekend at his tour for two days. This video does no justice, so I can understand jumping to conclusions. Clinton's method stresses preperation before getting on a horse and not letting a horse become dangerous.


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## RosiePosie06 (Jun 3, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I agree with Cherie; CA is by no means the best male rider out there.
> 
> And his ego is just about as big as Australia. If I were a horse, I'd rather be the horse trained and ridden by Chris Cox or Buck Branaman than the one trained/ridden by CA.


He said plainly that he is NOT the best rider. He said he doesn't even have natural talent at training horses or riding, but he's good at training people. That's why he's a clinician and not a horse trainer. 

As for the ego... I'd agree haha. But that's why I enjoy listening to him, he seems very sure of himself and he's hilarious. I'd have a huge ego too if I were him.

Edit: He didn't say that in the video, but he said it on his tour.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I think most reliable training is not so much horse but people training. If I remember right when I saw Buck he also had to train and work with the owners and the owners worked with the horses. This is true of training with dogs. My sister had a beautiful German Shepard who she sent to be trained but she didn't have any part in the training and when the dog came home all she did was complain the dog wasn't trained and she couldn't handle her. I took the dog out for a walk and she had been wonderfully trained. When I came back with the dog I told her it wasn't the dog it was her. Same goes with our horse Toby I had our friend and trainer try her out and he said he had very good training and agreed with me that the problems our granddaughter was having was her and she needed to be trained to be able to work with her so that Toby would respond the way our granddaughter wanted.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Beling said:


> Biggest difference I see between NH and "cowboys" is: *the old-fashioned cowboy follows tradition (noting that "buck and spur"* is not being everyone's idea of tradition; but I've seen training like that, and successfully too) and NH follows the horse's nature. So while both can be effective, the NH trainer has more options, since he adapts his methods to each particular horse. Of course he can judge wrongly; and cowboys aren't totally insensitive; but just in general, that's how I see it.
> 
> (I'm afraid I had to laugh looking at that young man's expression..."The worst that can happen. . .")


*sigh*

Cowboys never have, nor do they now, train that way. Owning a hat does not a cowboy make. Sometimes I wish there was a test one has to pass in order to dress western.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Right I agree.


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## EmmJayCee (Jul 31, 2012)

Watching the video of those horses makes me know how lucky I am with mine. They were both given to us by people that had too many horses on pasture and have turned out to be absolute sweetie pies on the ground. I just got my round pen finished and am slowly working to getting in the saddle. (both are broke to a snaffle and have been ridden fine, it's me on the learning curve and I figure starting out on the ground is better than in the saddle). I don't know if you'd call what I'm doing "natural" horsemanship, but we sure are having a good time.


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

Have only read the OP's posting + about 5 in, so I apologize ahead of time if I'm being repetitious ...

I have come on HF & put about 6 (maybe?) lengthy posts about BB and that is about it. I have NO--be clear--NO attachment to the "NH" title that many folks put on their training styles or others have put on the style for them...I simply feel that from what I've SEEN, the training methodologies WORK 99% of the time, with a lot of effort, commitment, & thought involved. (By the way, I am ALL for saddles, bridles, bits, & horseshoes...doesn't matter. If these things are necessary to the job the horse must do/the discipline I intend the horse for, then they will all be used and guilt-free!)...I agree vehemently with the posters who have said that almost NOTHING humans do with horses is "natural"...thus, why must the TRAINING METHODOLOGY BE LABELED SUCH??

Couldn't care less if they labeled "what they do" with these horses, "Mickey Mouse Bull--it Crap Horse Training"...if it WORKS, I'm ALL FOR IT!

Too many folks, I believe, get caught up in the title/the whole "NH MOVEMENT" & stand behind it thinking, "He called it NH so it's warm and fuzzy and NATURAL AND GRANOLA!" That is CRAP, IMO.

I don't like any trainer dissing another, feel it is unprofessional and unnecessary. Allow YOUR WORK TO STAND ON IT'S OWN...that is all that is needed.

The rest of it is marketing and absolutely unrelated to anything that matters to me or any (future) horse I will train or ride. I'll NOT "drink the kook-aide", but I will use some methods and will respect some aspects of various trainers' teachings.

Best to all! B2H :0)


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## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

I personally like to think of myself as a happy medium between NH and the opposite. I like and use the idea of working with a horse, not dominating him and intimidating him to work, but at the same time, Parellis load of horse manure that he somehow manages to sell makes me worry for the future of the horseworld, so i think both sides have their ups and downs,,...


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

boots said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Cowboys never have, nor do they now, train that way. Owning a hat does not a cowboy make. Sometimes I wish there was a test one has to pass in order to dress western.



Im sorry but most old timers did. Even recently I was looking for a trainer in Wy and saw a mans ad on CL. I opened the video of him bucking out horses... Yeah I want him to start my horse and teach it how to buck...


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

^^^ I think you missed the point.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> Im sorry but most old timers did. Even recently I was looking for a trainer in Wy and saw a mans ad on CL. I opened the video of him bucking out horses... Yeah I want him to start my horse and teach it how to buck...


 
Living in Wyoming does not make one a cowboy by some weird default. And being associated in any way with a clinician... I can guarantee you that person was not a cowboy. lol


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I grew up in the mountains of Colorado in the 50s and 60s. I'm afraid at that time most horses were left to run out until they were 4 - 6 years old. They were gelded and branded as yearlings and never run in again until they wre 'broke'. Many I watched were blindfolded, snubbed to a broke horse or a snubbing post, or 'Scotch Hobbled', saddled and mounted. Every big ranch I was around had a round pen --- but it was 15 to 20 feet across and frequently leaned out so the cowboy did not get is knees broken. Horses bucked and ran (as fast as one can in a 20 foot pen). They slapped them up-side their face while they pulled on the hack rein and as soon as they could guide one a little bit, someone opened the gate and they headed out across the sagebrush. These horses were terrified, squealed, fell over backward, anything could happen.

Has anyone here been to Cheyenne Frontier Days? The 'wild horse race' is just a replay of what went on on a lot of these early day ranches except the ranches had the little bronc pen and did not 'race' them. They just got them out around a big mountain pasture. 

Most of these were Hancock bred if they had any registered stock behind them or draft / mustang crosses with a shot of TB from the Calvary Remount stallions given to the Indian Tribes and turned loose with the wild herds (that were really numerous at that time) in 1947 when the Remount was disbanded. 

These horses were tough and could go for 20 years on the rocks and the only way you could hurt one was to cut his head off and hide it. 

It was my exposure to these 'bronc breakers', many of which went from ranch to ranch getting paid to put 3 or 4 rides on each horse and then move on that convinced me that there had to be a better way.

I went to the National Western Stock Show to help a show-horse barn clean stalls and take care of horses when I was 12. I watched mostly Saddlebed and Morgan horses being ridden and watched the roadster and fine harness horses. I watched the grooms drive them to a buggy and back them into the shafts and then watched them drive them to the main show-ring with some rich old lady in a fur coat sitting up there like she knew what she was doing. From that stark difference I decided that if you could actually 'teach' a horse to accept the harness and pull a buggy or roadster, you could teach a stock horse to accept a saddle and rider and teach him to ride like a trained horse. I had always been told that it was a man's job and that horses had to be conquered and broken to be any good.

From that beginning, I developed a way to teach horses to accept a rider and to do what the rider wanted. 

In later years (early 70s) I took in horses (still 5 or 6 years old) to 'train' from some of the same ranches that I had watched the broncs being Scotched, eared or snubbed and ridden with absolutely no preparation. Norrell ranches (then at Silt, Colorado) held a production sale back in the 70s and they advertised in the sale catalog that several of these geldings were 'lady broke' because I had ridden them. I was so ****ed off I did not go to the sale. Back then, a 'lady broke' horse was one that no cowboy wanted to be caught dead on. I heard that they brought more at the sale than most of the other horses. 

I watched the traditions change through the 70s and by the time I moved to OK in 1979, I had a 3 - 6 month waiting list to take in horses to start, would not take one for less than 60 to 90 days and kept 5 or 6 for an entire year to have finished enough to show. I had won the Western Slope QHA Futurity and the Rocky Mountain QHA Shows in Hunt Seat, Western Pleasure and Reining more than once. I had several owners that sent horses to OK for me to ride and show. Some of these horses came from the same big ranches that I watched break broncs in the 50s.

When the Dorance brothers and Ray Hunt started doing 'clinics' at the big ranches, it was to show the cowboys and ranch owners / managers that there was a better way. The Four Sixes, Pitchfork, Xit, JA and the rest of the big ranches still had bronc riders start their horses when Ray Hunt went from ranch to ranch giving demonstrations. I first heard about him in the 60s when the Western Horseman published an article about him. 

So, things on the big cattle ranches have changed drastically in the 60 years that I have watched them. As big a change as the cowboys' methods is the quality of the horses. The big headed, thick skinned, big footed ugly ranch horses of 60 years ago have been replaced by cutting / cow bred horses with a LOT more quality and ability. Sadly, the bone and feet have also gone with the big ugly heads in a lot of the horses. 

Just my perspective. 
Cherie


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## EmmJayCee (Jul 31, 2012)

*Big Feet*



Cherie said:


> I grew up in the mountains of Colorado in the 50s and 60s. I'm afraid at that time most horses were left to run out until they were 4 - 6 years old. They were gelded and branded as yearlings and never run in again until they wre 'broke'. Many I watched were blindfolded, snubbed to a broke horse or a snubbing post, or 'Scotch Hobbled', saddled and mounted. Every big ranch I was around had a round pen --- but it was 15 to 20 feet across and frequently leaned out so the cowboy did not get is knees broken. Horses bucked and ran (as fast as one can in a 20 foot pen). They slapped them up-side their face while they pulled on the hack rein and as soon as they could guide one a little bit, someone opened the gate and they headed out across the sagebrush. These horses were terrified, squealed, fell over backward, anything could happen.
> 
> Has anyone here been to Cheyenne Frontier Days? The 'wild horse race' is just a replay of what went on on a lot of these early day ranches except the ranches had the little bronc pen and did not 'race' them. They just got them out around a big mountain pasture.
> 
> ...


I have a Tennessee Walker and he's a great big horse. The farrier even remarks about his big feet, says they look wonderfully healthy and sound. But, they suit his body, and he gets along fine with just a barefoot trim. I've looked at the horse shoes in the stores out of curiosity, and I'm afraid they'd be too small.  I'm glad there's been a change from "breaking" horses to starting them. Some things are worth investing time and this is one of them. There is a better way and I think it makes a better horse, and makes us better human beings.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> Im sorry but most old timers did. Even recently I was looking for a trainer in Wy and saw a mans ad on CL. I opened the video of him bucking out horses... Yeah I want him to start my horse and teach it how to buck...


Yeah I agree with the above posters. 

* "Horse trainer" doesn't mean cowboy

* "Resident of WY" doesn't mean cowboy

* "Old timer" doesn't mean cowboy

Secondly, I don't necessarily believe he's teaching horses to buck. If he's falling off, then quitting them and sendin them home, then yes. But it's likely he's letting them make mistakes (bucking) and learn from them. That's a pretty good common sense way of getting a horse broke. If I was a recreational horse rider and looking to buy a horse, I'd rather buy one that has tried bucking, and gave up because it didn't work. Versus a horse that has never had enough pressure put on it to trigger it. (those horses are ticking time bombs). I don't mean jump on a nice horse and spur till they buck. I mean if a horse is itchy and humping, and you can sit a bucker, throw them away and let em go

As I stated before, I don't think it's wrong for Clinton to let a horse buck. Just don't run a cowboy's name down for bucking them out, then do the same thing yourself. You can sugar coat it and tell me how your technique is more benefitial till yer blue in the face and I'll still call it hypocritical


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> I am not sure what you seem to think he did so wrong? Those horses have learned from their owners that they can get away with this stuff. They are dangours horses. You have to be just as forceful as they are.
> 
> Keep in mind that CA did not flip that horse. The horse fliped himself. I have have a horse who did that too. They work so hard to get out of somthing that they end up doing things. SO what? Let the horse contiue to get away with it? Not here. If those has been my horses CA would have looked like an angle.


Not sure if this was for me Reiner. I'll respond as if it was...

I don't think he did anything wrong. I said this in the first post. I've seen plenty of CA and I think he does fine. Folks please if you think I'm bashing people's techniques, read the original post again. 

Doesn't matter to me if he flipped the horse or the horse flipped itself. It's not halter-broke if it's running backwards and flipping. 30 minutes tops being ponied with a good broke gelding and you could tie those horses up with a string and use em for heelin practice without an explosion


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

Personally, Clinton is one of my favorite NH trainers. I don't agree with everything he says.. But I like him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> Not sure if this was for me Reiner. I'll respond as if it was...
> 
> I don't think he did anything wrong. I said this in the first post. I've seen plenty of CA and I think he does fine. Folks please if you think I'm bashing people's techniques, read the original post again.
> 
> Doesn't matter to me if he flipped the horse or the horse flipped itself. It's not halter-broke if it's running backwards and flipping. 30 minutes tops being ponied with a good broke gelding and you could tie those horses up with a string and use em for heelin practice without an explosion


The horse bucking where not horses CA was riding or working with. Not sure I have ever seen him ride a bucker. Most of the trainers I know and have watched will not buck out a horse. There is just too much dangour in doing so. When you make a living training horses getting hurt is not an option.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I rode a young horse that turned into a bronc, head buried between his knees and his butt end high. He bronced like this six times then suddenly quit. It was like he had to get something out of his system. I rode it but I certainly don't recommend it. We never read how many cowboys were maimed or killed riding out these broncs. They did it as the pay was better than cowboying but many were killed. Originally cowboys rode horses and worked cattle, they didn't break horses, that was left up to the horse breakers or bronc busters.


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## EmmJayCee (Jul 31, 2012)

*Clinton Anderson*



LovesMyDunnBoy said:


> Personally, Clinton is one of my favorite NH trainers. I don't agree with everything he says.. But I like him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What I like about Clinton Anderson is he shows different horses in different stages of training and breaks it down so that someone like me (a beginner) can understand it and do it. He had a show on the other day on teaching a horse to flex. Brought our boys up from the pasture and had them doing it in a few minutes. (Our quarter horse already knew how, when I asked him to, he just flexed. Our Walker was a different matter, but once he got the idea, he flexed and looked at me as if to say, "Hello, mother" :lol. 

I am seeing that it's better for me and my horses to not follow one person exclusively, but to keep an open mind, try it, and if it works that's great. If not, there's another way that will. 

I don't know that what I'm doing is "natural horsemanship", but it sure is a lot of fun.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)




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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I would not call that bucking out a horse. That horse looked like he had issues with flack strap and anyone touching him in that area. With horses like that you just have to get them over it. There are a lot of things you can do on the ground and you could see he did with the rope. However once you change the angle of where it touchs him you will have the problem again. If you watched him he was hitting the horse with his hand in the flank area to get him use to it.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

I don't really consider that bucking a horse out, my little haflinger actually almost touches his nose to the ground and his butt is all the way up he doesn't want to accept someone on his back at all. He is a angel in the roundpen knows his groundwork, but I knew he wasn't going to accept a human on his back. A friend of mine asked if he could try and I told him right off the bat if he bucks you off you better be ready to get right back on I want him to accept a rider not learn how to rid himself of one. At least 15 buck offs later he finally accepted him on his back then my friend got off. I'm definately in a pickle trying to figure out how to get him to the next level. I'm going to do some research over the winter and come up with a plan for spring ;-) My one thing that I draw the line at is hitting him or beating them into submission.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

yeah reiner this horse wasn't doing much. Even less than the horses in the first vid I posted. Yes I know about desensitizing the flanks. It's the root of most bucking problems. Many a trail rider has been pitched when they first put a back cinch on ole roany and loped off down the road. Well he never did that before. When we had a buckin horse that didn't do a good job that's what they got. Front and back till they quit flinching and dropped their head a little, then jump on and ride. They usually didn't try too hard after that and some made good pickup horses. Doin that to a colt gives you a good guage of how hard they'll try to buck. Anyone with some experience will get an idea of how they react to pressure in the flanks, cinch, etc. then they saddle up and get on, while onlookers are OOhing and AAAhing expecting an explosion. When they get on without incident, people think they worked some kind of magic. They just read the colt. 

Sorry to get into a big deal about buckin horses. I don't think there's any difference in these horses bucking and a colt bucking the first time you ride with a saddle. They're all reacting. Most people think a colt was tryin to buck them off. Well most of the time when you saddle em, if you turn em loose, they'll buck with a saddle whether you are on or not.


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## EmmJayCee (Jul 31, 2012)

*Doesn't buck, but might bolt*



AmazinCaucasian said:


> yeah reiner this horse wasn't doing much. Even less than the horses in the first vid I posted. Yes I know about desensitizing the flanks. It's the root of most bucking problems. Many a trail rider has been pitched when they first put a back cinch on ole roany and loped off down the road. Well he never did that before. When we had a buckin horse that didn't do a good job that's what they got. Front and back till they quit flinching and dropped their head a little, then jump on and ride. They usually didn't try too hard after that and some made good pickup horses. Doin that to a colt gives you a good guage of how hard they'll try to buck. Anyone with some experience will get an idea of how they react to pressure in the flanks, cinch, etc. then they saddle up and get on, while onlookers are OOhing and AAAhing expecting an explosion. When they get on without incident, people think they worked some kind of magic. They just read the colt.
> 
> Sorry to get into a big deal about buckin horses. I don't think there's any difference in these horses bucking and a colt bucking the first time you ride with a saddle. They're all reacting. Most people think a colt was tryin to buck them off. Well most of the time when you saddle em, if you turn em loose, they'll buck with a saddle whether you are on or not.


Mine has never, ever offered to buck (although I know any horse can) but he has been known to bolt off a time or two, just leave the group on the trail and take off for the horizon. :shock: Any tips for that? (And, no, we'll never get rid of him, he's here forever, it's just something I'm going to have to figure out :lol


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

My grandfather owned a ranch a ranch on the NV/CA border(supposedly he owned more but lost the deeds in poker games) My grandfather has long since passed but talking to my dad he recalls how the horses were started. Pops recalls starting colts a lot like how my husband and I have done working in the same region. Horses ran loose and started in that period of late winter when the snow is not too deep but springs works hasn't begun. They were brought in roped, haltered and snubbed. Then sacked out with gunny sacks or a pair of chaps to the point where they would accept being handled and touched. Breaking to lead involved a stout halter horse or a ranch pickup. My dad recalls those vertical bars on the back of a truck made handy for tying a horse to. He also says he was never allowed to drive because he had a led foot..lol... someone that had a good feel drove to teach. Usually the first ride was pretty uneventful but he always like to see a good bronc ride, on occasion one would blow up. Colts were always tied to the snub post, corral post or a tree to be taught patience. You knew spring was coming if horses were tied in the pens!

My grandfather was not opposed to buying nice broke horses as well, he loved quality horse flesh. And had no problem finding them as all his brothers cowboyed all over NV and CA and would send nice horses his way. That is how my great great aunt had met Will James. The uncles were friends with him and they had cowboyed together. Later him and aunt Alice had married. Anyhow enough family history....

On his place horses weren't abused or bucked out. Sure the first few days were a little rough for them colts but they all turned into nice horses..otherwise them 'utes that used to work for him would of got ****ed and shot them all...lol 

I suppose it depends where you grew up as to what is acceptable. Basically what my grandfather did is not too far off from what I have done starting ranch horses. I am not a bronc rider and I managed. But that doesn't mean there was not guys who rode rough string. There was work for them guys too. There were tough horses and plenty of them. Look at the Spanish ranch it still has the reputation of having tough horses. And my FIL worked for Merv at Squaw Valley....guys used to puke in the morning before they had to climb on their horses. They would send 3 guys to wrangle and only 1 might make it in the cavvy. Merv had leg braces to fit a stirrup if you got bucked off and busted a foot or leg so you could keep working...if not you were fired, he would find someone else to ride.

It depends on where you went. No different than now, if you go to different regions within states, even, the ideals and norms for training change.

Point being, not everyone bucked horses out like you see on the movies. And just because a horse bucked or was counterfeit doesn't necessarily mean that he was bucked out from the start. Horses and people are individual, saying a time period defines a training method would be like claiming a horse or person defines a method, that is not true. It is individualized.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

NH or not all I know is that each of my horses and the ones I have trained in my much younger days, had different personalities and behavior types, but all responded to kindness, patients and discipline when needed. I have watched how mares interacted with their youngens and that's about what they did so maybe that is the true NH method.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

OWCHICK77 I love The story about your grandparents and their ranching days. I think it would make a great movie.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have always been an avid 'observer' of horses and training techniques. I have done this since I was a child. Observation and studying 'cause and effect' were my interest longer than I can remember. This has included watching herd dynamics in herds of all mares, all geldings, mixed herds and 'natural' herds with at least one stallion. They are all a little different but are all quite a bit the same. Then, seeing how those different herd members 'trained' and interacted with people and accepted and learned from training techniques has very much fascinated me for most of my 66 years. 

It has been my observation that bucking is a 'natural' athletic move made by a normal horse as a fear response. A feral horse or an untrained horse that has not been taught to accept a saddle or something around the girth / belly will naturally try to buck off a saddle if it is just introduced without any preparation and desensitization to the unnatural feel of the saddle and girth. To an untrained horse, it is no different than the response you would observe if a mountain lion jumped on the horse's back.

When I watched bronc riders put a saddle on an untouched horse, it would fight and squeal and buck, sometimes throw itself over violently, would sometimes try to attack the handlers and usually ended up tied down or snubbed and choked or nearly choked down. 

If the horse was turned loose to 'get it out of his system', he would frequently buck to exhaustion or near exhaustion and finally quit. Some would buck with a rider then and some would not. Some would buck again the next day but others would not. Some bucked every morning for many days and some never gave up the new 'habit' created by throwing a saddle on and letting them buck. Some of these horses will buck in the morning 10 years later. Some got sick of bucking and really did get it out of their system and others just kept getting more practice and kept getting better at it. Some turned into 'cold backed' horses that bucked every morning or every morning when they were particularly 'fresh' or it was really cold or their rider got in a hurry to saddle and mount or ???? They were just looking for an excuse for years to come. 

Bloodlines in the registered horses or those herds that had a registered stallion (as was common on early day big ranches) were pretty consistent as to whether they got over it or got better at it. I was not very old by the time I had gotten pretty good at predicting what different horses were going to do.

By the time 10 or 12 years old, I was determined that you could 'teach' a horse to accept a saddle just like you could teach him anything else you were good enough at to teach. By the time I was 13, I was accepting horses to 'break' and very few of them EVER bucked. By the time I was 20, I was starting 50 head or more every year and 1 or 2 would buck THAT SOMEONE HAD NOT ALREADY TRIED TO BREAK AND LET BUCK BEFORE I GOT THEM! These are the methods that I built on and I still use today.

I never, never, NEVER let a horse buck with a saddle, EVER. I gradually get a horse used to a girth by using a rope and then letting a horse stand around tied with surcingle on. When I first put a saddle on a horse, it usually does not do anything or even act like it has anything new on it. 

If a horse is pretty 'goosey', jumpy, pushy or fearful, I may saddle him up in the morning and let him stand around all day just saddled. Every time I walk by, I will grab the saddle-horn and shake the saddle hard, flop the stirrups around and just keep doing this until the horse fully accepts the saddle and every move I make around them.

Everything I taught myself to do came from watching the bronc riders and cowboys that skipped steps 1 - 20 and went straight to step 21. I was so determined that it did not have to be that way that it completely molded what I did later.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

AC don't hate the player, hate the game. :mrgreen:

My FAVORITE part in the first video was when Clinton flipped that horse over and the owner GASPS and she's horrified and Clinton DOESN'T EVEN CARE. I laughed my @ss off over that one. I've tried for the longest time to figure out how he gets away with some of the things he does and I think I've got it. He's really, really good at talking his way out of sh*tty situations. I've seen him repeatedly kick a horse in the belly (it's on his old problem solving DVD) and he wasn't publicly crucified. Unlike Parelli and the Catwalk incident. 

Parelli's mistake was that he apologized. :hide:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

You and I must not have watched the same Video. That horse fliped himself. CA did not do it to the horse. That is nothing new. A lot of horses when you put a bit of pressure on them will flip themselves.

As to kicking a horse in the belly. I have done that several times with horses especially breeding stallions. It would take a lot more then what a person can do to hurt a horse. Heck they get kicked by other horses. Now I am sure if I hit them in just the right spot with a lot of force then maybe... Keep in mind that these are 1200lbs animals. What we can do vs what anouther horse can do...

While I am not a big fan of CA. What I have seen him do when correcting a horse who is missbehaving is nothing that I or other people I know have done. Do it right the first time and there is rarely a second.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

nrhareiner said:


> You and I must not have watched the same Video. That horse fliped himself. CA did not do it to the horse. That is nothing new. A lot of horses when you put a bit of pressure on them will flip themselves.
> 
> As to kicking a horse in the belly. I have done that several times with horses especially breeding stallions. It would take a lot more then what a person can do to hurt a horse. Heck they get kicked by other horses. Now I am sure if I hit them in just the right spot with a lot of force then maybe... Keep in mind that these are 1200lbs animals. What we can do vs what anouther horse can do...
> 
> While I am not a big fan of CA. What I have seen him do when correcting a horse who is missbehaving is nothing that I or other people I know have done. Do it right the first time and there is rarely a second.


Oh totally. I'm sure he'd have flipped even if Clinton hadn't have been there. It's not an uncommon thing for a horse to do. They do it in the pasture ALL the time. :lol:


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## Back2Horseback (Mar 21, 2012)

First of all, GREAT POST a few back, Cherie, loved what you had to say & HOW you said it.

Second, can someone tell me what the "Catwalk incident" referred to above, with PP, was about? I've never heard of it! DETAILS!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

Ian McDonald said:


> AC don't hate the player, hate the game. :mrgreen:
> 
> My FAVORITE part in the first video was when Clinton flipped that horse over and the owner GASPS and she's horrified and Clinton DOESN'T EVEN CARE. I laughed my @ss off over that one. I've tried for the longest time to figure out how he gets away with some of the things he does and I think I've got it. He's really, really good at talking his way out of sh*tty situations. I've seen him repeatedly kick a horse in the belly (it's on his old problem solving DVD) and he wasn't publicly crucified. Unlike Parelli and the Catwalk incident.
> 
> Parelli's mistake was that he apologized. :hide:


I think the real difference between Parelli and CA is that Parelli leads us to believe that we can have a bond with our horses and CA tells us to be their leader and not to worry about all of the mushy love feelings we have.

I am one of those people who needed to squash those mushy lovey dovey feelings and learn to be a leader. I have a friend who follows Parelli and she doesn't even really ride her horse, down deep I don't think she trust the horse, so she showers the horse with all kinds of excuses and treats and love. I can't really completely follow CA methods they do cost a lot but for the most part I try to follow his ideas, and I get to ride my horses.


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

Cherie I couldn't have said it better. Your story is very close to mine. When I got my Appy foal I took my time to break her, getting her used to halter, blanket and rope around her. Before I put on a saddle I used a bareback pad with out sturps attached just get used to the girth which only took a couple of days then I added the sturps and she got used to them swinging and hitting her side which she didn't care to much but wanted to see what was hitting her side more that fighting them. By the time she was 1.5 years she had a light weight English saddle on and didn't mind a bit and never bucked once. I gradually started leaning on her back while talking to her and rubbing her neck and she knew it was me. Just before she was 2 my 6 year old niece was ridding her. By the time she was 2.5 I was able to get on her back and she never bucked once. I would love to be able to do that again we had bonded so well but that was some 40 odd years ago and a lot of pounds less.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

nrhareiner said:


> You and I must not have watched the same Video. That horse fliped himself. CA did not do it to the horse. That is nothing new. A lot of horses when you put a bit of pressure on them will flip themselves.
> 
> As to kicking a horse in the belly. I have done that several times with horses especially breeding stallions. It would take a lot more then what a person can do to hurt a horse. Heck they get kicked by other horses. Now I am sure if I hit them in just the right spot with a lot of force then maybe... Keep in mind that these are 1200lbs animals. What we can do vs what anouther horse can do...
> 
> While I am not a big fan of CA. What I have seen him do when correcting a horse who is missbehaving is nothing that I or other people I know have done. Do it right the first time and there is rarely a second.


 I've had quite a few horses flip out of temper - quite often because they don't want to lunge on one particular direction, I've never made them do it it seems to be a knee jerk reaction they have - like a toddler throwing itself on the floor when it can't have its own way.
Its better to establish rules from the start even if it does mean a good whack to establish them - better that than a dangerous horse who has no clue whats acceptable
Clinton gets away with it because he never pretends to be all Mr Nice Guy - Parelli on the other hand was selling his soft and patient and gentle approach and got caught off guard by a horse that hadn't read his book so took serious offence at it. The horse was OK and doing well in top jumping classes a year later without his help!!!!


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## Eileen (Aug 25, 2010)

I have seen young horses behave this way in pasture and their dams give them discipline with a nip or two.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Parelli meets Catwalk*



Back2Horseback said:


> First of all, GREAT POST a few back, Cherie, loved what you had to say & HOW you said it.
> 
> Second, can someone tell me what the "Catwalk incident" referred to above, with PP, was about? I've never heard of it! DETAILS!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 This happened 2 years ago at the Festival of the Horse at Stoneleigh UK The horse belonged to Robert Whittaker - son of John and from one of the most well known and respected UK showjumping families. They are not the sort of family who had horses handed to them on a plate - used to dealing with stallions and young horses with attitude. I dont know why they sent the stallion as they are certainly not the sort of people who would need help sorting a horse or a 'quick fix'. The horses was not a wild stallion but a 7 year old used to being around people and noise - it wasn't at all concerned with the goings on there but didn't take kindly to being handled the PP way. I would imagine that the Whittakers & their staff had a way of getting around this head thing it had like all good horsemen would
PP gave a written apology and later paid the horse another visit where he went to great lengths to show how he could now 'pet' the horses head
A lot of people were so disgusted by his behaviour that they walked out and demanded their money back
The film is poor quality but you can see what happened
pat parelli catwalk - YouTube

This should be a clip of the same horse showjumping a year later and wearing an ear cover!!


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