# Paint or Pinto?



## James77 (Aug 1, 2011)

What would you all consider my horse Dixie....paint or pinto?


http://www.horseforum.com/members/25555/album/dixie-3083/


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

Paint is refered to as a breed. Pinto is the coloring so if a horse does not have pinto coloring its just called a breeding stock paint. Shes a tri colored (bay) overo paint. Shes a paint but the markings are called pinto.

She is extremely cute though


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## James77 (Aug 1, 2011)

fresh paint girl said:


> Paint is refered to as a breed. Pinto is the coloring so if a horse does not have pinto coloring its just called a breeding stock paint. Shes a tri colored (bay) overo paint. Shes a paint but the markings are called pinto.
> 
> She is extremely cute though


 
So, a paint with pinto markings?


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

shes a quarter horse? not like a saddlebred or arab with markings right?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not a tri-colored at all. Just a plain old bay pinto.


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

Tri colored is refering to the brown on the body with the black mane and tail


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Doesn't matter. It is NOT a tri-colored horse. A tri-colored horse is a horse that is three distinct colors. Bays do _not _fall into that category.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

This is a true tri-colored horse. 


















Tri Colored Icelandic (Confirmed Chimeric!) | Equine Color Genetics


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## James77 (Aug 1, 2011)

fresh paint girl said:


> shes a quarter horse? not like a saddlebred or arab with markings right?


Oh, I've been told by the vet that she looks like she's got some quarter horse in her. She looks like she holds her head like one, she's got kind'a of a gait, but I havn't bothered bringing it out. I think she's mixed between a quarter horse and something else! Be honest, I don't really know, just like to hear other opinions.....I guess.


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

Ok whatever I grew up with professional paint breeders and trainers but if shes a quarter horse shes a piant,
if shes another breed shes pinto since paint is considered a breed and pinto is a color pattern. 
Saddlebreds and other breeds can exhibit that color pattern but that doesn't mean they are a paint because they are not quarter horses. Its slightly confusing but hopefully that helps a little.


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## Paintlover1965 (May 22, 2009)

Hi James. To be a registered American Paint Horse is not just the colour it requires strict bloodlines and horse stock horse body types. To register with the APHA the sire and the dam must be registered with the APHA, the American Quarter Horse Association or the Jockey Club (thoroughbred registry). At least one parent must be a registered american paint horse. To be eligible for the regular registry the horse must have minimum amounts of white with pink skin. You can look up the whole description on the official APHA website. It's very informative.


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

If thats the case then it would be under pinto registry not paint.


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> This is a true tri-colored horse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 




If it's a bay overo but there is no black showing - all legs, mane, tail are white - then it's not a tri-color but still is a bay Overo or Tobiano. I think it's a perfectly valid term to use to describe that all 3 colors - white, and whatever other 2 colors are appropriate, whether it's bay or buckskin or whatever - are showing.

It also means that neither parent is homozygous for the Agouti gene, which is what turns a black horse into a bay. So, each parent is E?Aa, meaning they have at least one copy of black (the Extension locus, the E) and since they are bay but produced a black horse, they are heterozygous for Agouti - Aa. If either were AA, the foal would have been bay. If one was aa, that one would have been black and not bay.


From paint breeders/trainers/showers


Tri means three meaning buckskin, dun, champagne with pinto markings are all tri colored.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

You have a bay overo pinto.

As far as the tri color thing goes think people use that term to make the horse sound more rare/special,lol
Any serious breeder,show person I know never uses that term...


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

fresh paint girl said:


> Tri means three meaning buckskin, dun, champagne with pinto markings are all tri colored.


Why even call them that? There's nothing more special about a bay tobiano than a sorrel tobiano, so why make it sound "speshul" and refer to it as tri-colored? 

By that standard, any bay, buckskin, color with black points, etc, with any sort of white marking would be referred to as "tri-colored". I have a SPB mare that has a large blaze. That's 3 colors on her body. She must be tri-colored too.


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

exactly what my point was 
all of them are tri colored not quite sure why I put it in the first time but they are all tri colored 
and that icelandic pony was just weird. 

just somewhat proving a point


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It is not tricolored. You are completely wrong in that respect.

That "weird" pony is a true tricolored horse. He has both sorrel and black in addition to a white pattern. 

In no way shape or form is a bay (or any version of black and aqouti) with a white pattern a tricolored horse. Genetics do not work that way.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

fresh paint girl said:


> exactly what my point was
> All of them are tri colored not quite sure why I put it in the first time but they are all tri colored
> And that icelandic pony was just weird.
> 
> Just somewhat proving a point


..what?


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

Any horse can be called a tri color but a horse that is brown black and white is tri colored
Tri means three 
and nvm its gotten a tad out of hand 
in the world of PAINTS tri is bay, buckskin ect...


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

You've lost me.

Any APHA breeder I've seen has never once used the word "tricolor" on their website.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

PO that is because those breeders actually know what they are talking about. :wink:


Tricolored is not a term accepted by anyone who is the least bit knowledge able as it is not correctly used term.

Bays, buckskins, etc. *are not* tricolored horses.


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## Countrylady1071 (May 12, 2010)

I'm just curious Ndappy, why isn't a bay or buckskin paint a tri-color, since it has black, white, and brown/cream? I didn't know a horse needed three different colors on its actual body to be considered tri-colored. What about a bay overo paint with black points on its legs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

When you grow up with things it sticks in your head for years. I grew up with crazy trick riding paint breeders its what it was referred to.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Countrylady1071 said:


> I'm just curious Ndappy, why isn't a bay or buckskin paint a tri-color, since it has black, white, and brown/cream? I didn't know a horse needed three different colors on its actual body to be considered tri-colored. What about a bay overo paint with black points on its legs?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because buckskin, bay, etc are single colors. You don't refer to a buckskin as two different colors because it happens to be yellow and black. So with the addition of white to what is only considered a single color, 1 + 1 = 2, making buckskin/bay/etc + white just two colors. 

Does that make sense? Basically, you wouldn't refer to a horse with black points like bay or buckskin as "bicolored" so saying tricolored is asinine.


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## Countrylady1071 (May 12, 2010)

Thanks! That does make sense. I'm going to go do some research on real tri-colored horses, I didn't know until today that there was even such thing as a paint with two colors BESIDES white, very cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

They are very rare and usual a form of chimerism.


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## Countrylady1071 (May 12, 2010)

What is chimerism?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> They are very rare and usual a form of chimerism.


 

wouldn't rabicano's and brindles fall under that as well.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Countrylady1071 said:


> What is chimerism?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Chimerism is when a single being (in this case, a single horse) has two different sets of DNA. Usually it is caused by originally started as twins in the womb, then fusing together into one animal.



fresh paint girl said:


> wouldn't rabicano's and brindles fall under that as well.


Rabicano - No. It's just another white pattern.
Brindles - The majority of them, yes, which is why a true brindle is so rare.


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

ok so what isn't a true brindle?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

What is her pedigree? In order to be a paint she has to have QH &/or TB blood in her pedigree. Pinto is strictly a color registry.


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## crimson88 (Aug 29, 2009)

I think true brindle is a horse born with a full brindle pattern, not related to dun factor or rain scald/rot.


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

Didn't think rain rot had anything to do with it. XD 

But brindle horses are pretty interesting though.


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## crimson88 (Aug 29, 2009)

Rain rot can cause "brindle stripes" in extreme cases when it actually scars the horse's coat.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Crimson's got the basic idea. A lot of "brindles" are actually heavily marked duns or have strange countershading.

Rainrot and other skin diseases can change the coat different colors. There was a horse posted on here before that was gray, I believe, and then got some kind of skin fungus that made it look all kinds of strange.


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> Crimson's got the basic idea. A lot of "brindles" are actually heavily marked duns or have strange countershading.
> 
> Rainrot and other skin diseases can change the coat different colors. There was a horse posted on here before that was gray, I believe, and then got some kind of skin fungus that made it look all kinds of strange.


 

Well if youve ever seen any horses that inherit both genes of HERDA the scarring usually looks pretty strange if they heal 
obviously in most cases those horses are euthanized before the age of 5


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

sorry to hijack the thread here... 
but my guy was sold to me as APH and warmblood cross... 
so since he's crossed, does that just make him a pinto? I can't register him as an actual APHA, correct??


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

APHA.Com - The Breed


Hes a beautiful horse btw


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## crimson88 (Aug 29, 2009)

Oxer, he is goregous! What is he croseed with? If TB or QH then it's possible if both parents are registered.


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## crimson88 (Aug 29, 2009)

*Double post*
Perhaps, if you wanted to register him Oxer, you could look into Pinto registery or Sport Horse of Color. I am pretty sure he would qualify for PtHA but I'm not sure about Sport Horse of Color. I don't know much about that registery, there are quiet a few registeries out there that are worthless such as the Blue Eyed Horse Association or Grade Horse Registery, you basicly are just paying for a piece of paper that has no value or use to it really. I don't know if Sport Horse of Color is any good or not. PtHA has a fairly good reputation however, they have a pretty big show circut and lot's of year end awards and fun stuff.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Oxer, he could be registered as pinto, but not Paint. Technically, he would only be a pinto even though he is half-Paint.


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## James77 (Aug 1, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> What is her pedigree? In order to be a paint she has to have QH &/or TB blood in her pedigree. Pinto is strictly a color registry.


I don't know her pedigree. She's just a mix, I guess. We bought her, or should I say rescued her. You could count every bone she had! I've been told she has a quarter horse profile, but like I said....she sort of has a gait, but I don't really care if it comes out, not gonna show her anyway. Someone around here said one time that she'd make a fine western horse, which that's what I'm working on


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

wow lots of great information! Thanks everyone!!
He's (as far as we know) Paint and Rheinland Pfalz-saar. Neither breed i know anything about. His left eye is about 1/2 blue which was also something i had never seen until i bought him.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

fresh paint girl said:


> Ok whatever I grew up with professional paint breeders and trainers but if shes a quarter horse shes a piant,
> if shes another breed shes pinto since paint is considered a breed and pinto is a color pattern.
> Saddlebreds and other breeds can exhibit that color pattern but that doesn't mean they are a paint because they are not quarter horses. Its slightly confusing but hopefully that helps a little.


I haven't read this entire thread so sorry if I am repeating what you have already been told. A paint horse is a breed. They have lineage that is traceable and all registered horses. Yes, the APHA horse can have AQHA and TB lines in it but can not be bred to any other breed and still be registered a paint. 

Pinto is a color registry. You can have a horse that is registered pinto and not be a paint but you can have a paint and have it registered APHA and PtHa. 

I found this post and your first post to be confusing. A paint is not a quarter horse if it were it would be AQHA NOT APHA.


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## crimson88 (Aug 29, 2009)

^ I _think _what she means is that if she's a quarter horse x paint and inherited pinto markings, she is a "paint".

*edit* I just re-read what she said, and like I said I _THINK _that's what she ment.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

crimson88 said:


> ^ I _think _what she means is that if she's a quarter horse x paint and inherited pinto markings, she is a "paint".
> 
> *edit* I just re-read what she said, and like I said I _THINK _that's what she ment.


if it is a AQHA and APHA cross it is a paint regardless of pinto markings. If it had not gotten pinto markings it would have been a breeding stock paint. 

Paint and quarter horses are both a breed of stock horses. A pinto horse is a horse of any breed with pinto markings.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

All paints can be pintos but not all pintos can be paints.

Clear as mud.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> All paints can be pintos but not all pintos can be paints.
> 
> Clear as mud.


And not all Paints are pintos either. :lol:


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Poseidon said:


> And not all Paints are pintos either. :lol:


That's true. A breeding stock Paint can't be a pinto.

Quarter Horses, Paints, and even Apps are considered stock breeds. They will have a good deal of profile similarities which is why when you look at a Paint, you see Quarter Horse. Many people refer to the Paint as a Quarter Horse with spots.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Po that is why I said "can be" and not "are." :wink:


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## fresh paint girl (May 27, 2011)

WickedNag said:


> I haven't read this entire thread so sorry if I am repeating what you have already been told. A paint horse is a breed. They have lineage that is traceable and all registered horses. Yes, the APHA horse can have AQHA and TB lines in it but can not be bred to any other breed and still be registered a paint.
> 
> Pinto is a color registry. You can have a horse that is registered pinto and not be a paint but you can have a paint and have it registered APHA and PtHa.
> 
> I found this post and your first post to be confusing. A paint is not a quarter horse if it were it would be AQHA NOT APHA.


 
I have a feeling I worded it completely wrong. Paint is a breed pinto is not. Horses of stock body types and specific bloodlines (AQHA, thoroughbred, ect...) It can be registered APHA only if one or both parents are registered under APHA, AQHA or the Jockey club.
If the horse exhibits pinto markings but is NOT of stock breeds or bloodlines ( saddlebred, arabian ect. ect.) it can only be registered pinto.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

fresh paint girl said:


> Any horse can be called a tri color but a horse that is brown black and white is tri colored
> Tri means three
> and nvm its gotten a tad out of hand
> in the world of PAINTS tri is bay, buckskin ect...



So......
My filly is is a rose grey. She has white, grey, brown and black hairs. I must be special. I have a quad paint horse.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

unless she is registered as a paint with the APHA then she is JUST a pinto. a bay pinto at that! and a cute one too!


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

haha mango yes! the VERY rare Quad-color take lots of pictures to document this new discovery!!


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## crimson88 (Aug 29, 2009)

^Haha sounds like one of those rare crazy colors you see on craigslist ads


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Just because the horse is gaited doesnt mean it has a gaiting horse in the bloodline. My registered QH actually paces because she shortens her strides but doesnt slow her pace and she starts pacing if she goes slow enough. I have papers on her too so i know she is a QH. Just because she's somewhat gaited, dont think that she HAS to have walker. To me, it looks like she doesnt. I also have a walker cross and he's tall and has walker legs and he still doesnt gait. Most crosses dont though some do.


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## James77 (Aug 1, 2011)

TexasBlaze said:


> Just because the horse is gaited doesnt mean it has a gaiting horse in the bloodline. My registered QH actually paces because she shortens her strides but doesnt slow her pace and she starts pacing if she goes slow enough. I have papers on her too so i know she is a QH. Just because she's somewhat gaited, dont think that she HAS to have walker. To me, it looks like she doesnt. I also have a walker cross and he's tall and has walker legs and he still doesnt gait. Most crosses dont though some do.


 
Hmmmmm! Interesting! She does hold her head like a QH!


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

She does. When she gets frustrated or wants to run she holds it super high but when she calms down and relaxes her muscles (she gets tense until she's warmed up) she's fine. She's got papers and everything and the guy who bred her ONLY had qh's so its unlikely her mother was covered by a walker on accident or anything like that.


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## James77 (Aug 1, 2011)

TexasBlaze said:


> She does. When she gets frustrated or wants to run she holds it super high but when she calms down and relaxes her muscles (she gets tense until she's warmed up) she's fine. She's got papers and everything and the guy who bred her ONLY had qh's so its unlikely her mother was covered by a walker on accident or anything like that.


 
So, you think my horse Dixie could have some QH in her??


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## TexasBlaze (Oct 4, 2010)

Probably. I would consider her an unregistered paint. In general paints are stock bred pintos. So i would generically call her an unregistered paint. You could definitally have her registered as a pinto and have papers that say she is a pinto but id be willing to bet she is mostly Paint by her build.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I wouldn't call her an unregistered paint or QH unless you know for certain that is what she is. 

For all intents and purposes she is a grade pinto. That is what she is so that is what you should call her. 

You don't know one way or another if she is AQHA, APHA, Walker, or something else entirely.


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## James77 (Aug 1, 2011)

TexasBlaze said:


> Probably. I would consider her an unregistered paint. In general paints are stock bred pintos. So i would generically call her an unregistered paint. You could definitally have her registered as a pinto and have papers that say she is a pinto but id be willing to bet she is mostly Paint by her build.


 
She does a nice QH trot when it's feeding time LOL! She'll trot right to her stall...LOL!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

fresh paint girl said:


> Ok whatever I grew up with professional paint breeders and trainers but if shes a quarter horse shes a piant,
> if shes another breed shes pinto since paint is considered a breed and pinto is a color pattern.
> Saddlebreds and other breeds can exhibit that color pattern but that doesn't mean they are a paint because they are not quarter horses. Its slightly confusing but hopefully that helps a little.


Just to add....
A Pinto can also be a Quarter Horse. We have a mare that is double registered as a Paint and a Pinto.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Just to add here James77, your mare is obviously frame. If you ever, ever decide to breed her, make sure you test her before breeding, for frame (LWO) and make sure the stud has been tested also. You don't want an LWO foal.

Lizzie


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

FeatheredFeet said:


> Just to add here James77, your mare is obviously frame. If you ever, ever decide to breed her, make sure you test her before breeding, for frame (LWO) and make sure the stud has been tested also. You don't want an LWO foal.
> 
> Lizzie


There's no need to waste your money on testing for Frame (the LWO gene) when the horse is clearly positive just looking at it. A horse that is exhibiting frame markings blatantly doesn't require testing because it would automatically be N/O. 

It is horses that aren't as loudly and precisely marked that need to be tested. For example, my mare's dam is a frame overo, yet Abby is almost entirely solid, save for one itty bitty spot on her side. That with her large blaze hints that she could also carry frame, just not show it as loudly.


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## James77 (Aug 1, 2011)

Here's a video of Dixie I posted not long ago!!


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-videos/video-my-horse-102372/


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

LWO... 
i had to google it. 
pretty crazy stuff! another reason why i enjoy this forum. I get to learn something new and interesting every day!


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I was under the impression Poseidon, that there have now been several cases, where a (obviously frame to the eye) horse, has tested negative for frame. 

Lizzie


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I've never heard of anything like that happening personally. Do you have an links or anything? It would be interesting to read about. Either way, if a horse was visually obviously frame, I don't think I would trust a test saying it is negative, just a fluke. But that's just me.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I think I came across this when first researching Minis a couple of years back. I remember at the time, thinking it odd but never asked about it on the Equine Color Forum. There again, when finding odd DNA results, I always suggest the owners request another finding and preferably via another University or such.

We already have known the sire we bred to a few years ago, came back with the incorrect DNA info. No possible way he is homozygous black. A new test showed it correctly. Sadly, if they did mix up samples, someone else also was sent incorrect information. 

Getting back to Minis. Certainly they have some of the most difficult and varied colour/patterns of any breed. 

Lizzie


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> I've never heard of anything like that happening personally. Do you have an links or anything? It would be interesting to read about. Either way, if a horse was visually obviously frame, I don't think I would trust a test saying it is negative, just a fluke. But that's just me.


I have seen incorrect test results more than once:-( Friend had a stallion who she tested came back negative & she advertised him as such.I thought no way he is negative he was classic frame in his markings.It was suggested she should retest but she insisted he was negative.Sang a different tune though when he produced a leathal white foal the following season:-(


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

fresh paint girl said:


> Ok whatever I grew up with professional paint breeders and trainers but if shes a quarter horse shes a piant,
> if shes another breed shes pinto since paint is considered a breed and pinto is a color pattern.
> Saddlebreds and other breeds can exhibit that color pattern but that doesn't mean they are a paint because they are not quarter horses. Its slightly confusing but hopefully that helps a little.



Actually she could be of TB breeding and still be a paint but to the OP if your horse didnt come with APHA papers its a pinto.


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## James77 (Aug 1, 2011)

Here's a couple of videos I made of her. What gait is she doing?

Dixie Gaiting - YouTube

and

Dixie - YouTube


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## paintsrule2 (Oct 28, 2011)

Just for reference, a registered Paint, can be a registered Quarter Horse and also have Pinto registration papers if the color requirements are met. AQHA deleted the white rule, which allows colored horses of the appropriate parentage to be registered with the AQHA. If you have a dbl registered horse, that is bred to a QH or another dbl registered horse, then you have a QH. If that horse happens to meet the white requirements for both APHA and PtHA, then you could have a horse with 3 sets of registration papers. If the horse does not meet the white requirements, then it would be considered a Solid Bred Paint. Pinto also offers a Solid Bred division. These horses are not allowed to show in the regular divisions of either APHA or PtHA against the "colored" horses. Also, in the Paint horse industry, dbl registered means a horse with APHA and AQHA papers, Pinto papers aren't usually referenced that way...


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