# Founder or Abscess?



## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Hello a month ago tomorrow my horse supposedly foundered. I hadn't ridden him since the Tuesday before and it was on a dirt road so it wasn't hard ground. He wasn't over heated and drank too much water and he did not get into anything he wasn't supposed to. Plus he had been grazed on lush grass that whole summer so his stomach was used to that. His eyes weren't glazed over there was no heavy breathing and he did not have a temperature. However he was favoring both front feet and they were both swollen. He was in the typical rocking horse stance. I nor the vet were able to pick his feet up but she said it would be too rare to have both feet have abscesses at the same time. So I didn't really look at for them after. But she gave him pain killers and I have him bute for a few days after. But it was almost the next day and he already seemed better. The week after he was walking completely normally again and didn't show and signs of foundering. I have been taking him for short walks and he is walking very normally, showing no signs of pain and actually is walking faster than me and trotted a couple of times today. We walked around in the snow and when we got back I cleaned his feet out and noticed holes on both feet that I never noticed before. I feel embarrassed because it seems like I would have noticed but they must have been filled in with dirt. So I am wondering with his quick recovery if it wasn't a rare case where he got abscesses at the same time. Another thing is that I haven't noticed founder rings and I should have by now. he has one big ring across his hoof but that is something else because I looked at pics from before and he had that on there already. The only thing that I have changed right before this happened was I was putting Hooflex on his hooves because my farrier said he had some bacteria and she suggested I used it to keep the hooves moisturized and moist hooves can cause abscesses. So what does everyone think? I attached pictures I took today. Sorry if they are a bit blurry.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

It certainly looks like where an abscess could have blown out. I'm not a vet though. But yes, it does look like it, especially if that hole is deep.

If I were you, I would be thrilled about finding the hole(s), because that is a much better diagnosis than founder. 

I have seen them blow out at both the coronet band and the back of the frog. I don't see why it couldn't come out at the bars either though. 

So hopefully it's that, especially if the horse is suddenly better.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

I know I was actually happen to have spotted them today because of the fact that its better than founder that's why I wanted another opinion. They aren't super deep but they are noticeable holes and I have compared it to other pics online and that's what it looks like to me. Its just weird it would happen on both feet at the same time.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

It is kind of odd that he would recover from founder so fast.
Those do look kind of like abcesses.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

I agree his recovery has been really fast. The abscess happens within the lamenea so would that cause blood within it when she did his feet? That farrier came up the same day to help me with some wedges and she gave him a roll. So she said there was blood in the lamenea when she did it. But already then she said he was looking really good he was standing on an incline with the more weight on his front legs. She seemed rather surprised because his pain killer would have been worn off by then.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

It's cetainly more likely to have been an abcess with a quick recovery like that. Once an abcess starts to drain and the pressure is relieved a horse can go from three legged lame to hardly a limp almost immediately.
As far as the Hooflex, I wouldn't count on that being the problem, but continually having wet feet or something applied which traps bacteria does make abcesses more common, even in healthy feet. Especially this time of year with the rain/snow and unavoidable mud it creates, keeping feet dry is usually beyond our control. The best you can do is pick them out and old timers (including me) will apply iodine/betadine after to help kill any bacteria and dry the soles.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

The betadine might not be such a bad idea if they were abcesses. My vet also told me to soak my horses foot with epsom salt 2x a day when she was recovering from an abcess.


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Yeah I have been putting Bannix on it. That is for fungal and abscesses. My farrier is coming up tomorrow so I am very excited to see what she has to say. Hopefully its good news. Ill definitely have to let everyone know what she says about everything. I messaged her on facebook and she said he might have had the abscesses from the founder but she said it was too hard to tell with the pictures but I'll know for sure. I think he is ready to ride. But I'm not a professional and have never dealt with founder before so I'll have to see what she says before I do anything. I am just plain grateful that he actually recovered at all. He is my best boy and if a horse is a best friend he is mine.


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

I would suggest what ever happened founder or abcess. Most likely abcess which created a lot of heat n fever in the feet. I have seen it happen before the whole sole area is shedding and he is growing a new sole. He will probably be a bit tender footed when the new sole is exposed till it callouses again. Then he should be back to normal. Hope this info helps you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Ok, so my farrier just left. She said he did founder and she said that one of the holes was an old abscess that is all healed and everything. But she said his feet looked awesome! She said that he was holding himself us super good. There was very little blood and he didn't have any kind of a slipper foot. After she was done with his feet she had me walk him for her just to make sure he wasn't walking lame in anyway and she said he looked perfect. Then she had me trot him a little bit and he got all cute and excited and tossed his head and did a real nice trot and she said it was really great. So she told me in a couple of days I can do some light riding around my field and see how he does with that. And ride depending on how he does and feels. She also said I can start him back on grain, which I am sure he will be happy about, lol. So... happy. She says that I really caught it on time by just knowing something wasn't right. So... happy this was my Christmas wish for him to get a good bill of health and to be able to start riding again.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Have you recently cleaned his stall or changes his shavings?

Bedding a horse in black walnut shavings/sawdust can bring on an acute founder attack that subsides relatively quickly. 



> In the case of black-walnut-shavings exposure, clinical signs of laminitis typically occur within one to two days of exposure to fresh shavings from both new and old wood, but not aged shavings. (2) Bedding containing as little as 20% of black walnut shavings is a problem. The signs are usually reversible within 1-2 days after removal of the offending bedding, provided that coffin bone rotation has not occurred.


Horses and Black Walnut Shavings


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Nope. Shavings are super expensive here so I hadn't used them. I put some on when he first foundered to make him comfortable. It is pretty much a mystery still why he foundered. We did find some Braken ferns in his hay, which I threw out all that hay after I found them. It is possible he ingested some and had the founder as a result. But it says that they need to eat at least 30% of their weight and he is a big boy almost 16 hands and over 1,000 pounds. But I don't buy hay from that person anymore I pay a dollar more for real quality hay.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

I too agree it sounds like abscesses, especially given the holes that appeared along the overgrown bars. I would not be 'thrilled' to discover this though, as while abscesses can be just 'one off' occurrences from accident or such(stepping on a particularly sharp rock, nail 'bind', etc), they are frequently a symptom of bigger problems, founder being one possibility.

Solar abscesses usually occur from bruising due to thin, 'dropped' soles. That is, there's little protection between the solar corium & the outside world. Depending on the surfaces the horse lives & works on, overgrown bars putting pressure on thin soles can cause abscessing in that area too, which seems likely to have happened in this case. Unfortunately when horses have thin soles, it's not that uncommon for abscesses to affect 2 or more feet.

From the couple of blurry pics, it's hard to tell much, but it does seem that while the horse's heels are over long, the front half of the hooves are quite flat, shallow? Apart from that, they appear in reasonable shape? I would therefore be trimming them for better balance, but also protecting the horse's feet with boots or such on hard ground or fast paces. It looks like he may have pretty good heels, but if the hooves are well balanced & he still grows a lot of heel but wears the toe away, heel sensitivity could be a problem - unfortunately this is very common. I know you said it was a soft dirt road you rode on(obviously different to my idea of a dirt road, which is hard & rough), but especially if it was at more than a walk, thin soles & weak heels are still prone to damage. Protecting them with boots, pads or such would help him use them properly and in comfort, therefore develop them better, stronger.

There is a lot to learn, different approaches to evaluate, that I think it's so important for all horse owners to make a point of educating themselves, rather than just trusting to other's opinions, 'expert' or otherwise. To this end, hoofrehab.com is one great source to start with, as is safergrass.org for info on diet as it relates to soundness.



Gizmo said:


> He wasn't over heated and drank too much water and he did not get into anything he wasn't supposed to. Plus he had been grazed on lush grass that whole summer so his stomach was used to that. His eyes weren't glazed over there was no heavy breathing and he did not have a temperature.


I gather these are signs you've been told to look for, which indicate founder? People have different definitions of founder, and mine is that it is the mechanical change/progression of unchecked or mistreated laminitis. Laminitis is the inflammation of the corium, due to metabolic issues, generally diet related, which weakens or breaks down the lamellar connection between coffin bone & wall. This can lead to 'sinking' or 'rotation' of the coffin bone in relation to the hoof capsule. 

Laminitis can result from feeding high starch/sugar(junk food) rations, or even purely from just too much food. Pasture induced lami is associated with overweight horses, because being overweight/overfed/under exercised is about the biggest risk factor. So whether or not your horse's stomach may have been 'used to' the lush grass, this may have been a factor or cause. He may have only suffered mild laminitis at the time(what seems to be commonly referred to as 'low grade' and may have been unnoticed at the time). 'Founder rings' start at the coronet - at the time of the laminitis 'attack' and grow down, so for eg. that reddish ring about an inch down his hoof capsule probably happened a month or few ago - depending how quick his feet grow.

As a hoof care practitioner, seeing how common and largely unrecognised laminitis is, I am inclined to think that every horse should be fed as a 'lami prone' horse. They have evolved to eat sparse low grade(esp compared to the cattle fattening improved pastures we're used to) and fibrous forage and generally don't cope well on lush pasture. 

Anyway, of course, with so little info to go on, the above may not be a problem for your horse, but it is likely & common IMO, so well worth considering. If you would like more advice/opinions about your horse's feet, info on diet & management would be helpful, along with some good hoof pics, such as described at; Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

Cheers!


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Gizmo I'm glad your horse is getting better. Loosie thanks for the cool links. My horses are barefoot & I always like learning new info.


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