# Chestnut or Bay? Maybe Paint?



## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Hello, newbie here. To the forum, and to equine breeding. This is our first foal, now 17 months old, and we don't have a fix on his color. 
Mamma is Chestnut, and Daddy is a Paint. 
There is no black on his legs, just a darker red, and his mane and tail are mixed black (I've read that a chestnuts mane can be so dark as to appear black) and brown. Some days I see black on his ears, and some days, not! His mamma has developed a very dark mane and tail, after being bred. They used to be the same color as her coat. 
Any opinions?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

The pictures have been moved and it broke the links so we can't see them. Can you post them again?


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

What color Paint was the sire?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sounds like a chestnut. If he's a pinto depends on how much white he has.


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## jackboy (Jul 8, 2012)

No pics


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OP to help you out I'm assuming the horse looks something like this pic?

If there is no black on the legs he is chestnut.

Paint is the breed, so I assume you're meaning pinto as in wondering if he is? Again, it depends on how much white he is. He could even have some pinto genes that minimally expressed could make him look like any other horse, even solid!


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

I wonder what happened to the pictures?!
Cappuccino Photo by Toromucoranch | Photobucket
Pucci, 7 Mos. & Sarita Photo by Toromucoranch | Photobucket
Pucci's Sire Photo by Toromucoranch | Photobucket
Thanks for the responses! I had a hard time finding my post again...


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Argh! Somehow my pictures are not showing.


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> OP to help you out I'm assuming the horse looks something like this pic?
> 
> If there is no black on the legs he is chestnut.
> 
> Paint is the breed, so I assume you're meaning pinto as in wondering if he is? Again, it depends on how much white he is. He could even have some pinto genes that minimally expressed could make him look like any other horse, even solid!


Yes, very much like this horse


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

lilruffian said:


> What color Paint was the sire?


I think he is called a Tobiano Paint. He's red and white, with black mane and tail. Pucci's dam is chestnut with a very dark mane and tail as well, but that happened over the last year. Her mane and tail were the same copper as her body when we bought her. 

Please forgive my ignorance of proper horse terms. I remember very little from my childhood, and, as I currently live in a Spanish-speaking country, I only hear the terms in Spanish. I look them up, but can't seem to retain what I read! &#55357;&#56873;


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Ok, I created an album on Horse Forum with the pics, if you can't see them in the other posts


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

To me he looks like wild bay - as in normal bay, just less dark points (legs) there is hint of darkness on his front legs as that could be it.. but I am sure, the color gurus will get back here.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I also suspect wild bay.

Do you have a good pic of his front feet (the white makes the back ones irrelevant)

If he has actual black on his legs, particularly at the bottom immediately next to the hoof I would say wild bay. Otherwise chestnut.

The horse I posted is just a sooty chestnut. I actually know a chestnut you would swear was bay because his color is so dark in the right places.

Mom is definitely a chestnut.

Dad is a bay (probably wild bay) with tobiano and sabino (I think). Is his other ear white? I'd be interested to see some other shots, he is a neat color. Definitely bay pinto though. (there are different genes that make up the pinto, that is what I am questioning)

Wild bay is like a regular bay but the black is even more restricted









The best way to tell bay vs chestnut is the color at the bottom of the legs, particularly the coronet band. If it's lighter right above the hoof it will be chestnut, if it's black it's a bay (or another black based horse)


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Too add, he would not be considered a pinto as he only has white in the "normal" areas (blaze/socks) (unless he has some on the other side which I doubt)

However, I do suspect he DID get some of the pattern genes from his dad and they just aren't as obvious on him. (minimally expressed they can create the "normal" markings (yes they are the same genes!) or even no markings at all)


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Paint is a breed, so there should be no question about that 

Yogiwick--Informative post. Thankie <3


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Do you have any photos of him where you can see the tops of his hooves? The grass is obscuring them in his photos. If the color lightens above the hooves I would say a dark chestnut, but I am leaning more towards wild bay. If he is a wild bay, I _think _he would still be dark or even black right above the hooves. 
He is adorable no matter what color! Very very cute horse.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Seeing the photos, he does look more bay, though with minimal black. Sire is a bay, so unless he is carrying red (he would either have to be tested or you can look into his lineage) the foal would have inherited black making him black based (since black is always dominant over red when present). Add agouti on top of that and you have a bay  Wait a little longer to see how he really sheds out though.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

he is cute. Sire is a bay paint , dam is sorrel . lots of the sorrel horses get a darker mane and tail . Unless his color really changes, i would call him bay because of the black mane and tail.


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Pucci's Sire Photo by Toromucoranch | Photobucket









In this photo, you can see he has white, just above the hoof, then red. 
Here also, is the other photo I have of his sire. 
Thanks for all the input! I appreciate all the thoughts. 
We love him, whatever he is, he's a sweetheart. It's just nice to know what to call him, when people ask. One day, we might have the opportunity to register him.


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Ok! I got one picture in! Upside down, but I Did It!
Let's see if I can do the other...


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Darn picture is fine inPhotBucket, but posts upside-down!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Daddy is SUCH a weird color. Beautiful but very strange. Even the white going down the tail. I really like him, build too.

As far as Jr goes... I'm afraid I can't get much from that pic. I even downloaded and flipped it but then it was small and got blurry when I zoomed in.

I still suspect wild bay but that pic doesn't look quite like what I was expecting.

If you care you could test for extension E/_ is black based (and we know he would therefore be bay) e/e is red (chestnut). Since mom is red he is either E/e or e/e. The test is $25 I believe.

I would just say bay in the meantime 

Do you happen to know the dad's parents colors?


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Just above his hooves, the hair is a white band. Then there is red, then white, then more red. Almost a soft striping effect, but not black. Sometimes it's hard to tell, as he likes to fritter in the mud. It's rainy season, so, plenty of that. Last year, he was deathly afraid of mud, but has since decided he likes it 

I wouldn't mind doing a blood test, but it is not available here, to my knowledge. Most owners call their horse a Quarter horse if it is 'Alazan' or Sorrel/Chesnut. They don't know that a Quarter horse can be one of many colors. 
My more knowledgeable horsey friends know a lot about training and handling, but not much about genetics or even dental care. It's spotty business. 
When we bought Pucci's mama, I shipped over about ten books on horse care, from the basics to training (no such thing as a trainer here). 
We have done Pucci, so far, all by ourselves. When it comes time to start him under a saddle, I think he will go stay with his sires owner. He's very good at training. He's done several natural horsemanship courses in the US. 
I think I've gone way off subject here...
So, Wild Bay, or Sooty Chestnut...I think I will go flip a coin &#55357;&#56836;&#55357;&#56372;


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sorry forgot you werent in the US. You could mail long distance XD

A couple pictures of dark chestnuts that show the lightening above the hoof:







(note hooves are painted but see that ring?)










Note how even the wild bay I posted still has black immediately above the hoof. Black based gets darker chestnut gets lighter.

ETA-My friends horse that pretends to be bay until you look closely  Unfortunately no pics of his feet.








(Yeah I know..the halter :/)

ETA again  I am back to thinking chestnut...I think haha) His baby pics look very bay and IDK if that is normal.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I have been advised that even though he's all "grown up" he may just be a late bloomer and to give him another shed to see if/when that black comes in on his legs


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Wild bay is relatively rare, though of course that alone wouldn't mean that he isn't one! My vote is for chestnut with how light he gets right above the hoof. 

If you're especially curious, you can send in a hair sample to get tested- I don't think it matters that you're outside the US, just the postage to send it there will be slightly more. I've used the lab at UC Davis before. IIRC it's $25 for the red factor test.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Those feet scream chestnut to me, just a slightly darker than usual one, which may change since he is still young.


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Yogiwick, you take the cake! 
I took these pictures in the last couple of days, and now that the weather is changing, so have his legs! 
All four knees (hocks? Excuse my lack of terminology, I know most of them in Spanish!) have turned black, and what was red on his front (fetlocks?) now seems to be black as well. 
The brown on his mane is only at the very tips now, and his tail is growing beautifully. It seems to be all black coming out now too. 





He really has grown up in the last few weeks, while my attention was stolen by the arrival of Miss Coco


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

I'm sorry, I got no notifications for this thread at all (I thought I had it set to Immediate)
One question was about his daddy. His name is Cheyenne Skip. HIS daddy is Big Bucks Skipper, I didn't find a photo. Nor does his pedigree say what color he is. (Great grandmare was bay, Great grandsire was Chestnut) That's all I got. 
His mama was from Panama, and all I have is her name, Keshua Cool (out of Jet So Cool and a mare named Saval Mare, who could have an awesome pedigree that never got passed on- it happens sometimes to the imported ones...or not.)

Those photos of the Chesnuts are Amazing! 

Verona1016- I appreciate that pearl of information! I will keep that for future reference. 

I hope I didn't miss any other questions. 
I still can't believe how much he has grown and changed over just the past few weeks!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Very nice looking boy! Loving that color


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Thanks! We love him. He's a sweetheart


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

he is very cute. He is what we call a crop out paint as his sire was a paint, but he does not have the the big splashes of white. 
He does look like a sorrel or chestnut . 
Is there a place near you that you could do a genetic test on him for color ?


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm going with bay, I thought wild bay with the first pics, then got thrown with the next one, but the last ones definitely looks to be a bay.

Here crop out is when you get a colored foal out of solid parents, if he was a Paint he'd be a solid paint bred, not sure what they call them for pintos


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Paint, Pinto...I thought one was the translation of the other. At least that's how it works here. 
I grew up near horses, with plenty of opportunities for interaction, and developed quite a love for them. However, I never had the chance to own my own horses until now. So, I have no education on the matter, whatsoever, just my instincts, and the animal logic I've learned over the past 13 years raising cattle. And a whole host of books! 
So, that said, Paint is the breed, and pinto is the color. Ok. That makes Cheyenne Skipp, Cappuccino's daddy, pinto, as he is a registered Quarter Horse. And Cappuccino, finally showing his true colors, a Bay, as he has no other spots. Cool. 
If you look close at the photos, you can see he has two different eyes. His right eye is just like Saritas, but his left has a lot of white to it. I wonder if that is a trait of the pinto. Or perhaps it can happen in any color/breed?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If you want to get all technical about things, a "paint" horse (here in the US anyway) is a horse that is registered with the APHA (American Paint Horse Assoc.). Any colored horse that is not registered with them is technically a pinto.

However, in everyday life, I frequently use the term "paint" for any horse with any white markings beyond normal socks or blaze, whether they are registered or not, because if I say pinto, folks around here look at me funny LOL.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

LOL on the paint/pinto thing.

re: a previous post, I believe solid colored horses out of APHA (Paint) parents are called 'breeding stock'.

From what I have heard APHA breed shows are now beginning to have breeding stock classes, maybe to increase interest and value in them, as they are regarded somewhat like the former AQHA crop outs.

Someone correct me if am am wrong, I know I fallen behind on APHA rules and such as it has been a while since I owned any.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Skippy344 said:


> Thanks! We love him. He's a sweetheart


I'm going to toss my vote in for Bay. Especially with Arab foals, they come out with white or mousey looking hair on their legs that darkens to black when they are going to be bay. His legs look just like that. 

So.....here in the US his daddy would be a Pinto, unless he was registered with the APHA, American Paint Horse Association OR he's a registered Quarter Horse or Thoroughbred with the requisite white coloring. Any other breed with the appropriate coloring is a Pinto, they are strictly a color registry. 

APHA is also a breed registry for QH's and TB's and Appenixes ( mixed QH & TB) with color. A cropout foal is a foal without a Paint Parent, both sire and dam are registered AQHA or JC (Jockey Club). It must be eligible for regular (colored) Paint registration to be registered. 

The solid foals are now called Solid Paint-bred foals.


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Wow. Thanks everyone! I'm loving this education. There is nothing like the awesome technology we have these days to gather information. I marvel at it everyday.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

My mare is a wild bay and his last photos look like her colouring. As Haviris said, he initially looked chestnut then bay, but in those last pics he's definitely bay.


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Yeah, it took him a while to show his true colors. He was almost grey at birth. I'm still trying to hunt down that photo...


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Skippy344 said:


> Ok. That makes Cheyenne Skipp, Cappuccino's daddy, pinto, as he is a registered Quarter Horse. ?


 Actually if he was a registered QH he would still be a Paint (Paints are basically colored QH or Thoroughbreds), but since QH does not carry for tobiano (that is what that pattern is), he can't be a QH. What breed is the mare?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Skippy344 said:


> So, that said, Paint is the breed, and pinto is the color. Ok. That makes Cheyenne Skipp, Cappuccino's daddy, pinto, as he is a registered Quarter Horse.


If Cheyenne Skipp is registered QH, he can then be registered as a Paint, because he's a reg'd QH, if he's a QH but not registered, then he's a Grade horse and could only be registered Pinto.


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

Yes, he is a registered QH, with the Panama QH association. (I just realized this, looking at the copy I have of his reg. Somehow I had it in my head that he was brought from the U.S.)
Cappuccino's mama is a Chestnut QH, also registered with the Panama QH association. We are working on getting her papered with ACRICAMDE here.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

AQHA does not carry tobiano so they don't come in that pattern, didn't realize there was another QH association, that's interesting! Learn something new everyday! So I have no idea how that would work as far as the Paint registry (or registries if there is more then one!?).


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## Skippy344 (Sep 5, 2014)

At the very bottom of the certificate, it says they are associated with the AQHA. 
Up until '99, when the control of the Panama Canal was turned over to Panama, Everything was closely related to the U.S. even their money. The Balboa is interchangeable with US dollars and cents. The coin that represents a silver dollar looks like a penny stuck in the middle of a silver dollar. It's kinda cool. 
Panama is our neighbor to the south, and as there were so many Americans there for so many years, it was a far richer country, so many excellent genetics were shipped down. As improving genetics in, not only horses, but cattle, dogs, goats, etc., has become important to the Ticos (us) many have found it more economical to bring them over from Panama than the U.S. 
However, the laws are different, and as the ticos are not as well off as the Panamanians, there is a lot of fudging that's gone on. So, many animals are not registered to the impressive genetics they have. That gets passed on by word-of-mouth, if they are looking to get a premium price. 
We don't believe in this way of doing things, and so, get burned almost every time we try to acquire good livestock. As soon as they peg you for an American, (or someone with money, they think all Americans are rich) they start coming up with rules and laws to make things impossible until you give them a 'little something'. A $1500 horse, for example, if you act as if you don't know what's going on, and stick to the correct way, will cost you about a week at the border, three lawyers and an extra $3000 to comply with their made-up 'laws'. So, most go the way of ducking $100 under the table, and on their way...it's hard to try to change things, but it has to start somewhere. 
What would you do?
At least I know my money went through official channels, and hopefully will open up the eyes of someone, somewhere, just by being outside the norm. 
That's one thing I miss about the US. I know 'chusmo' exists, but it is easy to do things correctly. 
I hope this doesn't come off as a rant! I just meant to show how different things are, and why


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