# Encountering Llamas and other scary animals on the trail



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Opinions on which is best when a horse is spooking badly upon meeting scary animals or other on the trail. Dismount if possible or hold his head to the side until spins enough circles to finally settle down?

Harold


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Hondo!

This is where you need to be a solid leader for your horse.
If you sense trepidition, reassure your mount with a laugh and pat on the neck. I talk to my guys; "Oh look, some llamas, aren't they funny looking?"
Offer to let your horse go over and check them out, or just stand relaxed and let him watch them for awhile.
Once you feel him calm down a little, ask him to walk on past, or even to trot/canter if thats what it takes; "Best do it at a bit of a run if you're nervous."
Whatever you do, you ultimately need to get your horse to move past the spooky object, or it will be worse the next time.

Once on a walk in the neighborhood, my horse Oily and I encountered someone working inside an enclosed trailer. Oily (who is usually pretty solid) was absolutely horrified; guess he thought the trailer had eaten the man, I mean he wouldn't even look at it 
I finally turned him and got him to back past the scary scene, after which he wanted to spin and bolt. I let him run a few strides before cueing him back down to a walk; he needed to get it out of his system.
We went around the block, but by the time we were back to the trailer monster, the guy had finished what he was doing and was outside of the trailer. Oily tensed and snorted a bit, but walked on past. If I had been thinking, I would have asked the man to walk in and out of his trailer a couple times for Oilys benefit.

Bottom line, horses are gonna spook, it's how they are wired. It is up to you as their leader to defuse the situation and turn it into a learning experience. The only way you are going to accomplish this is by staying calm and keeping a sense of humor. I can't emphasize enough how important this process is. I would be tempted to say that you should actively look for situations like this; every success strengthens the bond.

Hope this helps. Steve


----------



## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

Getting off is the last thing you want to do. That's a last resort. If you get off, you'll have tougher time next time. By getting off, your teaching the horse how to get rid of you. BUT, if you have to get off to be save then do it.

Then, I usually try to get the horse to face the monster, I'll let them back up, if it's, clear behind us. Once they realize the monster will not eat them, they usually get over it. They are much more afraid of a horse eating monster they can not see clearly, than one they can see clearly.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

One of my favorite ways of dealing with other spooky animals (domestic) on the trail is to ask if I can follow them. Once the horse sees that he can "chase" the scary animal, it isn't so scary anymore. 
I also tend to prefer staying on, unless I feel really unsafe. Generally I can stay out of the way of flying heads and hooves better from their back than from the ground if they do get silly.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Here's the source of my dilemma:

An article by a Pacific Crest Trail, U.S., solo trail rider-http://www.thelongridersguild.com/pct-advice.htm

Quote:you aren’t likely to find the perfect horse for the PCT – but try. Primo’s nemesis turned out to be llamas. We came upon three of them unexpectedly in Washington and he was terrified. Fortunately, I had time for a quick dismount. He ran in circles at the end of his extended reins, snorting loudly. He knocked me down, breaking loose, and then ran off at a gallop. Fortunately, I was able to track him down within about two miles. He could have gone much farther . . .End Quote

The people at the ranch where I'm staying say that is the worst possible thing to do. They say stay on the horse and control him/her with one rein pulling the head to the side to prevent a bolt and runaway with the horse spinning until settled.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

That quote exemplifies why I won't get off the horse who is really agitated and "looky". They are spinning and not paying attention to where you are, and bam, they run you over.
The riding out a spin is one way I have used and I think it is a good tool to have in the toolbox, but shouldn't be the only tool. I also like to have a good back and lateral movement on the horse as those can be great to get a spook under control.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

it really depends on how narrow the trail is and what would happen if you stepped off the trail.

if the trail is very narrow, and spinning around would be dangerous, I might get off , if I though I could hold the horse, or stand between him and the scary thing.

in general, staying on is the better choice. If I can, I don't 'spin' the horse. I will not allow them to turn 180 to the scary thing. I try to keep them at most only 90 degrees from it, and at best, facing it. so, if the start to spin, I pull them back around (not same direction they are spinning) to face it. if there is room, allow them to walk at an angle (off at 90 degrees ) for a step or two, then turn them back and go the other direction. zig zagging in front of the scary object. eventually, you will feel them become a bit less panicked and you can ask for them to go closer.

if the llamas are approaching you, I think it is easier to get your horse to pass them, than let them continue approaching you, so maybe ask the llama person to hold up for a bit while you work through this.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Hondo said:


> The people at the ranch where I'm staying say that is the worst possible thing to do. They say stay on the horse...


Of course the major flaw there is the assumption that you CAN stay on the horse. Unless they supply velco saddles & riding pants


----------



## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

I spin if I can. The green horse I am riding does fine with traffic but we had a "cherry picker' truck drive by. It made some horrid rattlings sounds and was huge. My horse attempted to bolt and I spun him around 360 and we continued on our merry way. The guy driving stopped and we had a conversation which was great for my horse as he had to just stand there.

Some trails there's not room no room for a spin so I just keep them under control with lots of talking to the scary thing.

I must say I really do better if I dismount. I know I am not supposed to but I feel it makes the situation better.


----------



## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Stay on and keep your horse facing the scary creature/thing until it passes. If the thing is a stationary/non-living object, give them some time to process it- and also, don’t look at it. Act like it’s not even there. When you focus in on something, the horse feels it and thinks “Oh no, my rider is paying attention to this – OBVIOUSLY it’s something worth worrying about!”. And once they have their butt to something scary – where are they going to go? AWAY, that’s where. 

I also recommend Karliejaye’s “chase it” method, because it works on a horse’s base sense of controlling another creature or situation. How do they control one another? They make each other move. If they feel like they can make a scary thing move, it gives them a sense of control over the situation and a lot more confidence. My QH gelding and I made a game of chasing off loose dogs that would come after us when we rode, and he absolutely loved it. Even when we had one come up to us snarling and growling, he laid his ears back and went after it like it owed him money. 

Since it’s likely you’ll encounter deer, llamas, bears, and other critters if you’re planning to ride the PCT, it’d be good to start doing some real desensitization work along with your normal conditioning rides. If you can find someone who raises llamas or alpacas in the area, you might be able to borrow a llama gelding to pasture with your horse for a while, or if it leads well, perhaps even work up (SLOWLY) to ponying it off your horse. Many alpaca breeders have “pet quality” male alpacas that are castrated as crias since they’re not all high-quality enough to be herd sires, which they sell to people who want pets or fiber animals for very little money (usually $100-200 in this area). Who knows, you may just wind up with an unusual pack-animal. 

If he’s got a common fear of stationary objects, I like the “walk up, back off” method. Find out the distance to where he starts to flip his pancakes, and turn back just before that distance is reached. Rinse and repeat while slowly increasing the distance. I also like clicker training to teach horses to “target” a scary thing by turning being brave into a potentially rewarding situation. 

Being a former mule-rider, I was used to BEING the scary thing on the trail – many horses are frightened of mules, but every mule had a horse for a mother so they’re already desensitized!


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

An additional note on the recommendation for pulling the horse's head around and spinning. That recommendation was made if the horse was showing signs of bolting into a full out run as a way of holding them in place until settled.

Hondo, which is my horse not me, (i know i goofed at signup, can be very jittery at times when ridden alone. He is getting better and better the more I ride him. He has not done a 40 MPH sidepass for a few months now. But he will still on occasion do an instantaneous 180 with the pedal to the metal. I've managed to stay on him without velcro and pulled/talked him down in 40 or 50 feet. Well except when riding him bareback which I have decided not to do anymore although I enjoyed it. That time he stopped about 100 feet from me peering out from behind a bush as if to say, "I'm hiding, but are you ok?" I walked right up to him no problem.

Yeah, even though Hondo is sure footed, I think if on a narrow vertical sided trail, an uphill dismount might be a good idea.

But the guy in the article had enough room for his horse to circle three times before knocking him down so there I agree that an spin would be better than a full out run.

And yeah, most of Hondo's startles are just a quick solid brace where I discuss with him, "What's the matter buddy?" or maybe a short sideways or 45 degree turn.

It was the guy getting off in the article that puzzled me as he must have a bit of experience with horses to be riding the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico to Canada.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I used to ride an Appy that did spins that were nearly impossible to stay on. he was already downhill in build, and would do the "stop, drop and spin". stop hard on his front legs, drop his outside shoulder, and spin. I'd always go right over that outside shoulder. well, I mean not always, but if we'd been trotting and he caught me on the "up" part of the post, off I'd go. Six times.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

As usual, I'm gaining some really good info on the HF.

Now I'm wondering, are there people that use Llamas for pack animals behind a horse?


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i would wonder why they would . the whole purpose of using llamas is that they can go where horses are forbidden, due to the fact that horse's feet chew up the ground in a way llamas feet do not. llamas cannot carry nearly as much as a pack horse/mule, so if you did not have to use llamas, and had a horse to ride, wouldn't you use a pack horse?


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> i would wonder why they would . the whole purpose of using llamas is that they can go where horses are forbidden, due to the fact that horse's feet chew up the ground in a way llamas feet do not. llamas cannot carry nearly as much as a pack horse/mule, so if you did not have to use llamas, and had a horse to ride, wouldn't you use a pack horse?


tinyliny, I dunno. I was just wondering about Mulefeather's comment: "Who knows, you may just wind up with an unusual pack-animal. " about Llamas.

But now that I think about it, if only a small load was needed, seems like a llama would be an easier keeper than another horse. Now I'm wondering if llamas and horses can bond.

I guess llamas are allowed on hiking trails closed to horses?


----------



## Oreos Girl (May 24, 2011)

Fiddler's meltdown was mules. I didn't even see them. He started to bolt, I pulled he head towards the mules. Finally my friend's horse (who didn't care) came back. We put Fiddler's nose in her butt and rode past them. They were on both sides of the trail tied as people were there working on the trails.


----------



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Now I'm wondering if llamas and horses can bond.


I used to ride in a place where we had to pass some llamas on the way to some rerouted trails. The horses were less than impressed with the whole area, forget if the llamas were close to the fence. The normally mellow, very experienced trail horses suddenly looked like they were in the halter ring, all snort and blow and bulging eyes. After a few attempts to school through the issue there, the horses' owner actually arranged for a couple llamas to come live with her to get the horses over it. While the initial arrival was very exciting (fit arabs can run around in circles for a _long_ time :lol, after a few days the horses decided they weren't going to die after all. Not sure I would call them bonded, but at least non-reactive.

I have had horses react that way to pigs too. Guess they just smell wrong?


----------



## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Hondo said:


> tinyliny, I dunno. I was just wondering about Mulefeather's comment: "Who knows, you may just wind up with an unusual pack-animal. " about Llamas.
> 
> But now that I think about it, if only a small load was needed, seems like a llama would be an easier keeper than another horse. Now I'm wondering if llamas and horses can bond.
> 
> I guess llamas are allowed on hiking trails closed to horses?


I would rather have a goat than a llama for a pack animal. Even better is a small pony. We have both a goat and a pony for packing. The 300lb pony leaves the goat in the dust.

Worked a pony ring at a fair. The ponies where right next to the llamas. The ponies could care less, the llamas on the other hand had a conniption all week long.


----------



## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I think it depends on your comfort level, the situation, and your horse.

If my horse is really and truly scared of an inanimate object, and it's something we can safely interact with, I will get down and interact with whatever the thing is. Last time it was a dump truck with it's dumping part raised up. I got down, patted the truck, got him to touch the truck with his nose, got back up and kept on moving. But, we've done a LOT of groundwork so I know his comfort level is higher when he can see me interact with something.

The only thing I haven't been able to deal with comfortably and reliably is when we're riding past a field of horses and they come galloping over to gawk.


----------



## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

To be fair, I have never seen someone using a llama to pack with off a horse- I assume that, with the right horse and the right llama with the right training, it could probably be done. After all, llamas can be driven like horses, ridden (by small children), and trained to pack. I have seen horses and llamas bond though. Some people that raise llamas have both.

However llamas cannot carry very heavy loads- they are what I'd consider a "light" pack animal. If you intend on being out in the backcountry for long periods of time, where you will basically have to pack in everything you need, you will need something much sturdier like a mule, horse, or donkey.


----------



## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I am very new to saddle horses but I am looking to future possibilities of some multi day pack trips. At the moment I have just completed construction of a couple of salt boxes and will be making short trips distributing salt over 28,000 acres for training.

I just learned last night that one of the guys I ride with on roundups led a 5 mule string on pack trips for guests for an outfit in Colorado. So I'll be plying him with questions.

I would never have imagined the learning curve that horses have become.


----------



## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hondo said:


> I would never have imagined the learning curve that horses have become.


Hi Harold!

Boy, howdy. And it never really flattens out.

But when you think you have a pretty good handle on the situation, get yourself a member of the longears clan to teach you humility 

I will comment that lessons learned in this pursuit are readily applicable to life in general, and so highly worthwhile. The reason we're here, isn't it?

ByeBye! Steve


----------

