# Full on bucking while lunging.. =S



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Throwing it out there, but has he been checked for pain or soreness by a vet or chiropractor? Generally speaking, issues such as you're describing are caused by pain. Horses don't have a verbal way to tell us "Hey! That hurts!" so they do so the only way they can think of, which is to act out. I would get him checked out by a vet (if he hasn't been already) before assuming it's a behavior problem.

Perfect example of this is my friend's mare. She pulled both front tendons a few weeks ago (luckily didn't bow them), but showed no real signs of lameness, so my friend just kept using her like normal. The mare's behavior, both on the ground and in the saddle, kept getting progressively worse. She bit my friend when she was saddling her, then she actually kicked her a couple of times while my friend was working around her, and she just wouldn't listen from the saddle (all things that are not at all normal for this usually mild-mannered 16yo arab mare). So, when the vet was out to treat another boarder's horse that had a puncture wound, my friend asked him to take a look at her mare. As soon as he touched her front tendons, she reared up and tried to get away. She was in serious pain, but it was only discernible (to someone who knew what to look for and didn't just assume it was behavioral) in certain situations.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Ohh I know the feeling, my boys a 7yo tb and he's feeling the spring too.
What I did was teach him to free lunge, in a sense anyway.

(I would suggest doing this after you have made sure he's not in pain though, I thought Mitch had a sore back but turns out it's just the seasons n grass)
Set up a makeshift round pen if you can, and if your boy is respectful of fences, I used a fence reel and 8 or so standards to do my one.. I put a standard in the middle and hooked my lunge rope over it so I could get accurate distances (although I added extra diameter to my circle incase mitch took off) that way if your boy takes off in a bucking frenzy you can't get dragged around the paddock.. Mitch did that to me and boy did he get a lesson taught.

If your horse wants to run/buck, then let him.. Let him decide when he wants to start something, but the catch is, you decide when he's finished.
e.g. Mitch took off on the lunge and decided he was just gonna gallop.. So, I made him gallop... and gallop, and gallop, and keep galloping.. By the time he was finished (I was finished) he was exhausted.. The next time he took off on the lunge he galloped about 20m away, then stopped, turned around and walked his sorry butt right back to where I stood.

As for the free-lunging, your horse may actually enjoy that, I kow mitch does anyway. We do poles and jumping and just plain old excercise inside that makeshift ring, and he see's it as a game and really enjoys it.

-Also, what about equilibrium B1 cool mix? I got suggested that and I've just started trying it with Mitch so I'll let you know in a week or so whether it's had any affect on him :lol:
Or something of the calming nature.. Darn thoroughbreds and spring grass.

*Keep his mind active whatever you do, especially while riding. I find that when Mitch gets bored, thats when he really acts up.. And I mean *really* acts up.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Given he's NOT in pain (because if he has back issues or saddle doesn't fit properly canter is usually the main gait they start to express their unhappiness... by bucking usually....) I'd change the direction of lunging the moment he tries to take off or throws the buck.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I NEVER,NEVER, NEVER let any horse buck on the longe line. To me, it is accepting the worst behavior possible and just hoping it does not carry over into the way one rides (or until one doesn't ride at all). It is playing with fire and hoping not to get burned. Horses are 'creatures of habit' and to let one buck on a longe line is helping him develop one of the worst habits a horse can acquire. Some horses get tired of bucking and 'get it out of their system'. Others just get practice and get better and better at it and learn to like it more. There is NOT ONE THING positive that comes from allowing one to buck and play on a longe line.

Longeing should always be a training exercise and not just an exercise exercise without training. 

This is the progression his training should take in my opinion:

1) I would do what ever is necessary to stop the behavior. But, before I did that, I would make a turn-out place where this horse could be turned out just to run and play BEFORE you saddle him or try to longe him. 

2) Longeing should always be a training / schooling exercise and not just a play / exercise time. 

3) Next, I would NOT longe him with a saddle until he learns proper longeing manners. I would also make my goal to have a well-trained enough horse that he can just be saddled up, mounted and ridden off. Having to longe a horse before he can safely be ridden is a HUGE hole in ANY horse's training.

4) Then, I would longe him with a chain over his nose or a real stiff rope halter that he could be disciplined with. 

5) I would not let him out of a trot on a longe line until he trotted with perfect manners and complete control and looked like a well-trained horse would look under saddle.

6) I would keep him on a short enough longe line that I could jerk him around and stop him every time he behaved in an 'out of control' and unruly manner. Every time he tries to 'take over' the longeing process, he should be 'jerked around', stopped, backed up and re-started the opposite direction.

7) I would gradually lengthen out the longe line as long as he stayed under 100% control. 

8) I would not let him canter on the longe until he was completely under control at the trot. Then, the instant he took off fast or threw in a buck or kick, he should get jerked down IMMEDIATELY, backed up and only let to trot until he behaves well enough to let him canter again.

9) Once I had this horse to that point on a longe line, I would give him a job on the longe. I would set up jumps, obstacles and training set-ups like a cavaletti with elevated poles. 

10) Once I had him re-trained enough to do this without a saddle, I would start re-training him on the longe line wearing a saddle. I would start out by introducing side reins and would only longe in side reins until I had him behaving as well saddled as he was without a saddle. [You can do obstacles with side reins but cannot let one go over jumps in side reins.]


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## EighteenHands (Sep 12, 2011)

I TOTALLY agree with Cherie!

Bucking is completely unacceptable bahavior and should not be tolerated under any circumstance.

I was once a "marshmellow" when it came to diciplining my horses, and in the end all it got me was a broken tail bone and months out of the saddle. It could have been ALOT worse, but it was still a severe injury.

My friend recently purchased an un-broke 3 year old german warmblood and the 2 of us have been training him and my horse together...we went to a professional for pointers and assistance and learned a few imporant things

1. You HAVE TO BE the alpha. If you're not, you WILL get hurt. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday you you'll get an injury from a horse who thinks he's the boss.

2. Your horse has NO other option than to do exactly what you tell them to do when you tell them to do it. Being a horse owner is like being a dictator, you say where, when, why and how.

3. If your horse does something naughty, you DICIPLINE them....please note, i didnt say you beat them...I said you DICIPLINE them (just as they would get a swift kick in the butt or bite in the side from the alpha mare in the wild).

Bucking on the longe line was a BAD problem for my friend's young warmblood, and our trainer help us get a grasp on what works best to control it. He still tried to buck out sometimes, but we do as our trainer told us and we really have gotten it uner control in a short period of time.

- use a longe line with a shank, making sure the shank is attached to the bridle properly.

-the warning: If your horse is thinking about bucking correct them with a hard jerk on the shank and low and loud snarly "NO!" the _second _they put thier body into the bucking position (head down, ears back, and a little hoppy dance before the rear goes up). if the horse listens to your command and decides not to buck, you tell them "trot on" or "canter", whatever gate they were supposed to do before the decided to buck, then a quick stern but calm "good boy/girl" after they make a good descision

-the buck out: if they continue to make a bad descision and buck anyway despite your warning, this is going to sound really silly, but GROWL at them. No, really....like " NO!!! GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!! RRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!! NoOOOOOOOOO!!!!" in a horrible low mean growling snarly voice. then GET AFTER THEM. keep the longe line firmly in your grasp, shanking the horse firmly and keeping them moving forward with the longe whip until they stop.
-if the horse is extemely naughty and throws a bucking fit or becomes out of cotrol keep your grip, longe line tight and make sure you move with the horse so your arm does get injured. Use the shank very firmly and make sure you don't give in to the behavior. Keep growling and snarling after them and saying NO! in a low booming voice. When the horse stops you immediately make them continue in the gate you wanted. DO NOT give them time to think, you think for them! if they buck out again, REPEAT. they will get sick of the game and submit to you....but if you give in they won the battle.

Trust me, they will want the shank pressure off thier face and will take you seriously if you growl and snarl at them. I thought it was comical and ridiculous, but if you could have seen the expression on the 3 year olds face when we snarled at him. It was like "oh, WOW...yup, you are DEFINATELY in charge. If your horse thinks they can get away with bucking on the longe line, they WILL try to get away with it under saddle. Working with them on the longe line to get behavior under control is extremely important.

and for those of you who are going to say "a shank is cruel", yes it's all preference, but I am NOT a horse abuser, but if a chain across the top of the horses nose prevent me from getting my arm dislocated, or keeps the 1200 pound animal ont he end of the line out of my personal space.....I will use it, but I wont abuse it.

hope that helped!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Cherie said:


> 3) Next, I would NOT longe him with a saddle until he learns proper longeing manners.


What does wearing a saddle while lunging have to do with learning proper lunging manners?

I can not see how wearing or not wearing a saddle makes a difference one way or the other.





Cherie said:


> I would also make my goal to have a well-trained enough horse that he can just be saddled up, mounted and ridden off. Having to longe a horse before he can safely be ridden is a HUGE hole in ANY horse's training.


The way I read the OPs post is that she is dealing with a horse that is starting back into work after having the whole winter off and it is now spring and happy.
Though I agree that horses should be able to be tacked and ridden off I think you are jumping to a conclusion here that the OP does not know that in the grand scheme of things her horse should eventually be trained to be able to be ridden with out being lunged first.
Steps. People have to take steps.
One of those steps is admitting your horse's limitations and knowing that 'this time of year he is a little too happy so lunging first gets him paying attention in a manner that is safest for both of us' seems like a very smart thing to realize and do.


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## Serendipitous (May 27, 2011)

It probably has more to do with the fact that if he is wild on the longe it becomes more likely he could buck and fall down or rear and fall over and damage/break the saddle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Just having a saddle on and a girth on does two things.

First, it makes a 'fresh' or bad mannered horse MUCH MORE likely to buck while playing. This ALWAYS is counter-productive.

Second, It is more likely to carry over into the way a horse rides. Evidently it already has as this horse has now bucked her off when she rode him.

As I have said so many times before, "Horses are creature of habit!"

You never know what connections a horse makes in their minds. They can connect the bucking -- that you cannot stop -- while saddled and on a longe line 20 feet away from you -- with wanting to play and buck more with a girth on. I have also seen horses start out bucking with just a saddle and ending up really cinchy and cold-backed. 

I will always prefer that horse plays and 'gets it out of his system' while turned loose in a paddock or other exercise area.

If the horse can only be exercised on the longe, then I want to do it without a saddle until I know I have instilled perfect manners and obedience at all gaits. The last thing I want him to ever do is to find out that he can (let alone wants) to buck with a saddle on his back. A saddle should mean everything is all manners and business and never play-time.

I have just had too many horses brought to me that bucked riders off regularly and their problems all started with longing or turning out with a saddle.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Cherie said:


> J
> First, it makes a 'fresh' or bad mannered horse MUCH MORE likely to buck while playing. This ALWAYS is counter-productive.


Hu?

Sorry, but I have never noticed or been told that a saddle makes it more likely for a horse to be bad. I suppose if it is an ill fitting saddle that causes pain, yes this would be true. Otherwise ..well....

And where does turning loose tacked come from?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Cherie said:


> If the horse can only be exercised on the longe, then I want to do it without a saddle until I know I have instilled perfect manners and obedience at all gaits. The last thing I want him to ever do is to find out that he can (let alone wants) to buck with a saddle on his back. A saddle should mean everything is all manners and business and never play-time.
> 
> I have just had too many horses brought to me that bucked riders off regularly and their problems all started with longing or turning out with a saddle.


First off - it's a horse not a robot. Perfect? Please.

Second - In our experience if the horse is allowed to play on the line, it is LESS likely to try anything while the rider is mounted.

Horses do not rationalize. "Play and buck only in turn out".


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

Our horses, young and old were always taught to take out their frustrations in the round pen first, then settle, work calmly at walk, jog, and lope, then be ridden if that was the schedule.
They never carried their playful attitude over to their work under saddle. Maybe we were just lucky, but they seemed to understand the round pen was for getting rid of excess energy first, then settling down and being the calm and quiet mounts they were taught to be.
Now once the tack was on and rider up top, there was no tollerance for antics, but I think they do need a place where they can get rid of that spring energy and blow off the several months of boredom they have just been through.
After a few good work outs they settle down quite nicely and get back into the routine of being ridden daily and thats when you take them out in the round pen and they dont have the extra energy, they do their thing with good manners, and you can start to saddle them without the workout.
It worked for us for some 35 years plus, and no.. our horses never bucked under saddle because they knew better.
Maybe the OP didnt work enough of the steam out of her horse before she got up on him..only she would know that, but that is the key to getting them to relax. Exercise and hard work is good for their minds too....rules are also good, and Im not saying a horse should be allowed to act like a fool every time they are brought out to the round pen, that requires a bit of common sense on the handlers part..is it something they are doing to test the handlers ability or are they just plain full of pent up energy that they need to release?
Of course what worked for us doesnt necessarily have to work for the OP either, just saying....they do have excess energy after being stalled all winter.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Hi Kingzy, 

There are some good replies here. Thought I'd throw my two cents in. 

It's normal for a horse to want to buck the first time they're brought back into work after a layoff; even normally well-behaved horses will do it. When a horse is left alone for a period of time, their priorities gradually shift away from working with the human and back into their instincts/herd mentality.The extent to which this will happen depends upon the horse. Their temperament, level of experience/training, age, length of time they've been laid off, etc.. 

Fortunately, it's pretty easy to stop this behavior on the longe line with a simple technique. The only catch is, the handler needs to be consistent and do it 100% of the time, regaining control of the horse before things get out of hand. 

Basically, you want to be able to disengage the horse through his hindquarters. When the horse bucks, his body locks up through the hindquarters first as this is where all the power comes from. Getting control of them laterally (left and right) will give you control of the horse. There are several different ways of doing this, but this technique works well for me. 

The moment I feel the horse's body 'locking up' on me, I know that I'm about to lose control so I need to get it back fast. I don't want bucking to become a habit, as a horse will repeat whatever he finds success in doing. I'll quickly turn sideways to the horse and take a wide stance to give myself the maximum possible stability. It's similar to the "horse riding stance" used in certain martial arts (you can probably find instructions on youtube). Turning sideways to the horse "gets the angle on him", giving you the greatest possible leverage. I then brace the lead rope/longe line against my hip, the one farthest away from the horse, and simultaneously lean my body away from him. This gives me much greater strength and stability than facing the horse and/or pulling with just the strength in my arms. 

I don't pull, I hold and wait. 

When the horse runs into your hold, it will bend his head around and kick his butt out. This should stop him bucking. I would then immediately send him forward again. It's not just about stopping the horse, but also teaching him that he needs to move forward without bucking. If he bucks again when I send him forward, I immediately disengage him again. I'll repeat this as many times as I have to until he moves forward freely without bucking. When that happens, I ease off and give him a rest. I reward him for moving forward NICELY, and then go on to whatever else we're going to do. 

Hope that helps  -Ian


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## Kingzy (Mar 27, 2011)

Id just like to add:

*I do not lunge him before riding. Ever. I don't simply need to. I tack him up and go. Even if I haven't ridden him in a month or so. To the person whos saying "to lunge a horse before every ride is a 'hole' in my training". 

*I am not lunging him in a saddle. Only in a halter and lunge rope. I can't remember the last time I lunged him a saddle. 

*He is turned out 24/7. Never stalled. Hes always actively running around and bucking etc when hes having a good time in his paddock. Just like all horses do 

*Only reason I lunge him, is to get some exercise into him after work as its still quite dark when I get home. Plus, its a good way for him to slowly start buliding up muscle mass. 

*My only issue is the bucking when lunging. That is all. I dont mind the odd buck on the lunge but don't like him full on leaping in air bucking etc. I want him to know when playtime is over and that he needs to get on with work now. 

*I dont know whether the bucked off experience I had last week was related to the lunging. I personally think he was just a bit too fresh and excited about doing something faster than a walk(as thats all we can do in our road ride and we went for the race up the hill after the road ride) Still, I think I need to refresh his manners and thats why I want to cut it out when I want. 

*To the girl with the 7yr TB on spring grass =) Im going to try the tape round pen idea today and then see how he goes with free lunging. I have never tired it before with him so should be interesting. I think Rocky should like it better than the lunge rope and maybe perhaps not buck and paw out as much. Ill set up some obstacles too. Great idea. That way he really have to save his energy for the work at hand. I think I bore my guy sometimes lol.

*To the first post regarding pain. I have looked, felt and poked all over? I havent had any issues with other naughty behaviour or anything odd from him. He never bites or kicks out at me. Hes only ever tired to kick me once when i was applying some iodine to nasty cut by his leg a couple of months ago and I gave him the biggest smack when I saw him lift up his leg. Never tired that again lol. And no issues under saddle when I ride? But still valid point and I think I will call out the vet if it continues to see if he can spot something. 

*To the horse stance technique advisor. Sounds its efficient! I will give this go when I next line lunge him. And repost the outcome =)


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Ruling out pain, I would do TONS of transitions and direction changes with this horse...when he can't anticipate when a direction change or transition is coming he will stop trying to buck or take off; And when he DOES try that nonsense immediately ask for one or the other...and do that each time, and make him work harder when he is full of himself. He will figure it out that being such a fruit loop is only resulting in more work, so he will eventually quit it; maybe not all together, since he is a high energy horse, but enough to where you would be able to actually get some focused work on the lunge line accomplished. 

Like I said, lots and lots of direction changes, and transitions, especially when he is acting like a doofus. He'll catch on. 

I have never had a horse be "more or less fresh" with tack on...not sure where that came from; most horses I have worked with, equate tack with work, so settle into the task quicker when the tack is on, than if they are 'naked' when I start ground work.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Just throwing this out there.
If you HAVE a round pen, not quite sure if you do or not, just free lunge him. You are here to excercise him and let him get his "jumpies" out. Why punish him for that? Would you rather him do it while your in the saddle?


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

There is a massive difference between exercising a horse and letting a horse get his "jumpies" out. 

The moment I have a halter on a horse I expect him to be focused on the task at hand, whether that be lunging or being taken out for a stroll down the road. As was said above, horses are not robots and I do not expect perfection, but I do strive for it.

Whether lunging on a line or free lunging I want to have control of my horse. Bucking is unacceptable behaviour the same as it would be under saddle. A horse that bucks while I am asking something of him will immediately find his mind and body too busy for shenanigans. I will use transitions, direction changes, back ups, etc to get his focus back on me. Then move on with what we were doing. If it happens again lather, rinse, repeat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

"unreinforced behaviour tends to stop"... so whatever you do, don't fall off or walk away from him while hes bucking.

other than that imo you could get away with letting him learn through his own negative reinforcement that bucking is less comfortable than quietly walking/trotting/cantering. there's no rule that says you have to be the one to punish him for it, as he effectively is punishing himself for bucking, by bucking vs not bucking. so again unless you remove any pressure from him, he'll learn not to do it.


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## Kingzy (Mar 27, 2011)

I have just made a up a tape round pen today. My only concern about free lunging is that when he lets loose his silly behaviour, I dont want him running or getting to close to me... 

Today I line lunged him before going to work and each time he bucked i would his head and turn him into a smaller circle and then as soon as he trotted/cantered nicley I would let him out. He seemed to get the idea I think. So thats 1 possible method to continue with? He also took off galloping on the line so today I just made him continue(as one person suggested) and pushed him to keep going and then asked him to slow down through transitions to a walk and then asked for a trot which he did well then I asked for the canter and then he took off again so I made him work and didnt let him stop til I thought it was right to slow him down. After that I think was starting to get the message and started go really nicely in walk to trot, trot to walk transitions. I did that for a while and got him going over poles and then left at that. I like to finish on a good note.

With free lunging how would I control where he goes? Like today he did a spook and turned towards me while he was being a douche and I had to flick the lunge whip at him so he would not get close to me =/ I don't really fancy a kick to the face nor being run over. 

Is it best done in a small pen or large? How do a make him change directions while free lunging? Plus, keep him out from getting close to me? Am I still meant to use my lunge whip? Sorry for questions but I have never done this and I want to make sure I do it right, espicially since Rocky is such a nut in lunging at the moment. I dont want to make the situation worse. 


But yeh I agree with howclever. I want my horse to understand that when Im with him, he needs to be behaved in all situations. He has atleast 22 hours a day to be silly and get out his "jumpies' in his paddock. Why should he continue to do it in our time together working and cause a danger to himself and myself? I have never encouterd this with my past horses. So I know that this is possible.


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

I dont know that I would free lunge in a pen that was just taped. It seems that you are on the right track and that you are getting on his case when he acts out and are pushing him when he is going faster than wanted so he actually wants to slow down when you ask him too. 
Dont be afraid to show him the lunge whip if he gets close at all to you.

Good job.

So far as him getting rid of his excess energy out in the padock, well unfortunately many horses go out and graze and hardly ever run off their energy when on turn out. 
It seems their stomachs are more important to them then their fitness. :lol:


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Kingzy said:


> I have just made a up a tape round pen today. My only concern about free lunging is that when he lets loose his silly behaviour, I dont want him running or getting to close to me...
> 
> With free lunging how would I control where he goes? Like today he did a spook and turned towards me while he was being a douche and I had to flick the lunge whip at him so he would not get close to me =/ I don't really fancy a kick to the face nor being run over.
> 
> Is it best done in a small pen or large? How do a make him change directions while free lunging? Plus, keep him out from getting close to me? Am I still meant to use my lunge whip?


To change direction, I hold my arm out to the inside of the circle and my lunge whip to the outside, unless Mitch is being completely crazy he will turn, At first I would slow him to a walk then drop my whip, walk out and turn him round while my hand was to the inside, he seemed to associate my hand being held up with turning quite quickly so that worked for him.

Yep, square up and look scary :lol: along with flicking your whip at him if he gets close, that should deter him from coming too close.. Cause hey, I don't know about you but if someone is standing by looking real scary then i'm not going over that way :lol:
Did he understand what to do when he got in there? Just thinking maybe he was going close to you because he was confused, if so then maybe lunge him inside the circle, but using your rope so he knows what he's doing for a bit.

Personally I use a large-ish circle, the radius would be about 12m, because then I've got those extra few metres to work with and get out of the way if need be. So it would probably end up being the same size as my normal lunge circle, considering I walk in my own circle when lunging.


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## Kingzy (Mar 27, 2011)

*SUCCESS!!*

Absolute perfection today, Im so proud of him!

I set up a obstical(sp?) course of small jumps and trotting poles and he loved it! He self positioned himself for the jumps and trotting poles. I didnt even have to push him where to go (Last year when I first got him he used to avoid or hesistate at jumps while lunging or ramdomly spook at them).

He was also fully paying attention to me and all my voice commands. He did all his walk-trot-canter-trot-walk-trot-halt etc transitions perfectly. 
So nice to watch and not get my arm pulled off. I made sure I rewarded him after every good effort no matter how small (Like the first trot he did around the pen without fuss i pulled him in and patted him and then sent him out in the opposite direction) and I think he got the picture (Well I hope so will find out when I next lunge him lol)

Yay don't you love super good horse days??

I did try a little bit of free lunging today but totally sucked ****. I think Rocky and I were both really confused. So I think Ill stick to the line lungeing for now. But definetly would be interested in praticing it when daylight savings starts as Ill have more time. I think I need to make my tape pen smaller for free lunging for the first few lessons until he understand what to do too. Luckily he respects tape.

Thanks for all your guys tips and advice  I think at the end of the day I wasn't giving his mind enough work to focus on and so I was boring him and he acted out in frustration?


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## SocietyJoe (Jan 21, 2011)

Joe is exactly the same, he bucks while cantering on the lunge line. 

I didn't think it was such a big deal as people are making it out to be. I lunge my horse when he is fresh and of course I am going to expect him to buck, after all he's having fun and getting it out of his system and I perfer him to do it on the lunge then when im riding. 

I always use my roller and side reins when lunging when I really want him to work, as soon as I know he is settled enough to wear them - I put them on and make him work untill I am happy with him. 


How is letting a horse back on the lunge a bad thing?


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## Kingzy (Mar 27, 2011)

SocietyJoe said:


> How is letting a horse back on the lunge a bad thing?


Well when they are out of your control and in danger of entangling/hurting themselves and you in the process for a start


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