# Horse slaughter again... changes coming July 2013



## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't know WHAT to write. Guess they'll just treat sick horses in the future the way that the UK now treats infants.
UK doctor testifies that under socialized medicine, sick babies are sent home to die | The Daily Caller
THIS is interesting...
Why the UK Is Ditching Socialized Medicine
Anyway...thanks for keeping up and sharing. I need that drink, now.


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## Conway (Nov 30, 2012)

Does anyone else wonder if this will lead to commercial market farms for horses in the US in the future?? To fit some need for horsemeat in other countries.

I'm not against slaughter in the least, there has to be an outlet for unwanted horses. Rescues just can't take them in and neither can people like us who get dumped with unwanted nags.

BUT the thought of intentionally raising horses for slaughter turns my stomach... Feeding them out like cattle. I'm not sure why, I understand that they are livestock...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

THe EU countries have had to conform with the passports system for some years now to bring horsemeat going into the foodchain up to the same regulations as any other meat going that route. The rule only affects your passport if you have 'allowed' your horse to go for slaughter for human consumption - the majority of people in the UK have their horses euthanised and cremated - this can be done through a slaughter yard but you have to pay for the service - cannot sell the horse as meat.
The decision on which drugs are allowed is based on how long they stay in the animals system after administeration based on risk to human health in the same way that livestock are treated.
*corporal* - I have no idea what the two medical notes are - interesting that the one is 'anonymous'. There's nothing new in babies that are deemed to have no quality of life being allowed to die - but the term 'quality of life' and couldnt be made based on physical disability but on a child having no mental capacity to function and how much suffering the baby would be put through to try to preserve its life, it is taken very seriously and it is up to the parents to decide. 
I'm not saying I agree or disagree because I've never been in that situation
As for the state of the NHS - Well thats been ongoing for some time now. There are more people taking out of the pot than are putting in. Far too much money is spent on managers and admin. and not enough responsibility for taking care of your own health - people who have health problems from obesity, alcoholism, smoking, drugs etc. There has always been private healthcare in the UK but you dont get a reduction in your NHS contribution if you do take it up. There are problems but the UK population are too used to having the service to give it up now.
No way could its economy be compared to that of Greece, its a surprisingly wealthy country considering how tiny it is


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Conway said:


> Does anyone else wonder if this will lead to commercial market farms for horses in the US in the future?? To fit some need for horsemeat in other countries.
> 
> I'm not against slaughter in the least, there has to be an outlet for unwanted horses. Rescues just can't take them in and neither can people like us who get dumped with unwanted nags.
> 
> BUT the thought of intentionally raising horses for slaughter turns my stomach... Feeding them out like cattle. I'm not sure why, I understand that they are livestock...


I actually know of a horse meat farm somewhere in the midwest. It's owned by a Canadian man, but he breeds and raises hundreds of thousands of horses specifically to go to slaughter. They seemed healthy enough...very _very_ few of them were ribby or looked unhealthy. Even their hooves looked fine from the videos and pictures I saw (kind of funny a they were using this guy as an example of bad horse care). What I saw was no different than en-mass pasture living. To me, if they're raised for food it doesn't turn my stomach so much as someone who's selling a companion for slaughter...


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

I'm surprised this hasn't been done a while ago. I'm not looking forward to see an increase in abandoned horses, but if it isn't safe for humans to it, then it needs to be done.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

It is my understanding that the Horses all have a passport. the passport is given to pleasure horses and slaughter horses, a slaughter horse can get a passport change to pleasure horse but a pleasure horse can never become a slaughter horse. This has been on the books for a long time and has been in the making of being enforced also for several years
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Canada has already started its passport system to comply with EU regulations, I did find this fact sheet on the internet which gives details of permitted and non permitted drugs for animals going into the food chain
Fact Sheet: Medications and US Horsemeat : Veterinarians for Equine Welfare
I dont like the idea of horses bred for meat either but its not in a producers best interest to starve them if they want best carcass value - sounds harsh but it is reality.
As long as some low end breeders are producing above market demand they are in fact breeding meat animals.
Interestingly my husband recently spent a week in France on business and ate in the hotels and different restaurants every day and didnt once see horse meat on a menu


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Conway said:


> Does anyone else wonder if this will lead to commercial market farms for horses in the US in the future?? To fit some need for horsemeat in other countries.
> 
> I'm not against slaughter in the least, there has to be an outlet for unwanted horses. Rescues just can't take them in and neither can people like us who get dumped with unwanted nags.
> 
> BUT the thought of intentionally raising horses for slaughter turns my stomach... Feeding them out like cattle. I'm not sure why, I understand that they are livestock...


This is what has always confused me about horse slaughter. People keep telling me horse meat it's a delicacy in some countries, but I can't imagine that you get high quality meat from random unwanted horses (some old, some skinny, none of them having a reliable history of medications used). It seems you'd need to raise them specifically for meat production, slaughter them at a young age, etc. to be suitable for human consumption and worthwhile to ship overseas. Like cows. I can only assume that in reality most of the horse meat goes to food for other animals (zoos, etc.)

I'm not against horses being raised for meat if they're free range- it doesn't seem like a bad life for a free range animal of any type to be able to roam and be well fed for its whole life until being humanely killed. But a bunch of horses raised in dirty, overcrowded dry lots? That would bother me :-(

As far as the Equine Identification Document, that seems to be a requirement of the Canadian government. It seems like most countries aside from the US have some sort of requirement to register horses and keep some sort of passport-type document for them.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

It's considered poor people meat, in France, in Germany(always was rather regional there, coal mines and steel mills country), Italy also, but there it's doctor prescribed for anemia, and weightlifters eat it for the higher protein. 
Breeding for meat has been done for a long time, pretty much all heavy breeds in France are bred thus way, and in Italy, the TPR and Murghese are traditionally bred for meat. Only recently are they being used as driving and riding horses, the latter especially for dressage, since they are a little like Friesians. 
The passports: the owner gets to decide if the horse is for human consumption or not, if yes, it can be changed, if not, it can't. The ones declared for human consumption cannot have all medications, and every treatment has to be recorded, signed and stamped by a vet. 
Most racehorses are declared not for human consumption, but there are ways to go around that, and they're being slaughtered by the thousands. 
As with everything, if there are rules, they're being broken.......


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You're right *Verona*. They breed for meat in some European countries - draft type horses selectively bred in the same way livestock is for top quality
Most of the pathetic creatures that go that way are only used in pet food, feeding zoo animals, rendering plants.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

July is not too terribly far away. So I have some concerns, who is going to control/monitor/enforce the documents it looks like we need to have? How will we hear about them? Etc. 

And then, we still have the problem of our unwanted horses.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

In the UK its controlled by DEFRA and we had plently of pre warning from all sorts of places though it took a long time to enforce and still loopholes though they are getting harder to find and the fines if caught dont make it worthwhile really. All UK new born foals now have to be microchipped too
Essentially no animals will be accepted for slaughter for meat going into EU countries without the correct documents.
I assume random tests will be done on the meat in the same way it is for other livestock and milk


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

So will that mean that only horses who are going to be shipped will need the documents, or all horses? 
We don't have any kind of an organized system here, so I have no idea how horse owners will hear about it.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

jaydee said:


> I assume random tests will be done on the meat in the same way it is for other livestock and milk


I'm not sure how much good testing would do. The half life of bute, for example, is less than 8 days. I'm not sure how small an amount a test can pick up, but after 60 days, there would be so little bute left (around 1/5th of 1% of the dose) I doubt it could be detected.

I keep wondering about TB's...it's no secret how many TB's go to slaughter in the US, and in Australia TB's are something like 80% of the slaughter horses if I remember corrrectly. So what is going to happen to them all? In the case of TB's, the new standards could actually change the whole methodology of breeding - that would be good IMO, but an industry changing development nonetheless...


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## Conway (Nov 30, 2012)

AlexS said:


> So will that mean that only horses who are going to be shipped will need the documents, or all horses?
> We don't have any kind of an organized system here, so I have no idea how horse owners will hear about it.


Ditto this.

I live in a very rural area, people don't microchip dogs or cats, I"m not sure how one would ever get them to microchip horses.

But if this is what needs to be done to keep our safe... Our horses will never leave the country under our ownership, I can't guarantee that if a new owner gets one.

Will passports be transferable between owners? If I say "no" on a horse and then something happens to me, the horse is sold, can the new owner say "yes"


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Conway said:


> Will passports be transferable between owners? If I say "no" on a horse and then something happens to me, the horse is sold, can the new owner say "yes"


Which also brings up liability and penalty issues...


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## luv my horse hinke (Aug 7, 2012)

i am totally against horse slaughter and would never eat a horse especially where its against my religion
I dont see the issue with wild mustangs etc.


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## Conway (Nov 30, 2012)

luv my horse hinke said:


> i am totally against horse slaughter and would never eat a horse especially where its against my religion
> I dont see the issue with wild mustangs etc.



Leaving religion out of it, would you rather horses starve to death in pastures where they are never fed, never have vet care or hoof care or human attention?

I think that is where most people say "But they can be adopted, they can be rescued, they need forever homes." I love animals, always have, but there are just not enough homes for all of the unwanted horses in this country. The rescuers need rescuing at this point. 

Horse slaughter has its place (IMO) I just personally don't like the thought of raising them specifically for slaughter. Then again it sounds better than a family's companion having to be sold due to hardships and winding up in slaughter.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Faceman said:


> I keep wondering about TB's...it's no secret how many TB's go to slaughter in the US, and in Australia TB's are something like 80% of the slaughter horses if I remember corrrectly. So what is going to happen to them all? In the case of TB's, the new standards could actually change the whole methodology of breeding - that would be good IMO, but an industry changing development nonetheless...


Right now there are laws that prevent the direct shipping from the track to slaughter. Absolutely doesn't prevent someone taking the horses and shipping them a month later though. 





Conway said:


> Will passports be transferable between owners? If I say "no" on a horse and then something happens to me, the horse is sold, can the new owner say "yes"


I don't know how it will be here. But in the UK if you say a horse cannot be shipped, it can't even if ownership changes as the passport goes with the horse. 
However if the horse is ok to ship, that can be changed to not ok. Once not ok to ship to slaughter, my understanding is that this can never change regardless of new owners.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Anyone science/medically inclined have any idea if there is an alternative to Bute that is acceptable? 
Is it possible that Bute could be removed from the market and something else take it's place?


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## Chardavej (Mar 13, 2011)

Icelandic horses are bred like cattle. The culls are turned out and left wild then brought in for slaughter.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

This brings to mind another topic...
13,000 horses could be destroyed in 2013 if Ontario horse racing industry collapses - thestar.com
Last I heard there is deffinitely at least one big track being shut down... And here it's not just thoroughbreds that will suffer, it's standardbreds too.. Woodbine is closing for the winter and not opening till April or May... And there are a bunch of owners up here who don't have a lot of money who will suffer because of this and will be forced to get rid of some, or all, of their horses... ontario, especially southern ontario, is big on horse racing, what with Woodbine and Fort Erie just a few hours apart. I can personally tell you of at least 5 racing barns I know of... all within 30mins of eachother


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My guess is that folks need to think of meat markets other than the EU. Let the prices rise in the EU, as regulation always does. It may be time to think of Asia as a horse meat market, and maybe developing it.

There isn't any good evidence that this will improve anyone's health. This is the EU protecting their farmers, who cannot compete with less regulated producers in America and elsewhere. There is no way most horses out west, at least, will ever have passports. Unwanted horses will end up shot in the wild, or simply released there. Then they will become prey...


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

AlexS said:


> Right now there are laws that prevent the direct shipping from the track to slaughter. Absolutely doesn't prevent someone taking the horses and shipping them a month later though.


Perhaps, but there is one track in my state where owners and trainers ship their horses off to an auction known for being filled with kill-buyers. Unfortunately not _directly_ to slaughter because of the maybe two middle men involved (the guy who picks up the horses _every week_ and the kill buyers). That could have been my boy...which makes me kind of sick to think about. One of his very close relatives was sold to slaughter from that very track (the name escapes me at the moment). Those horses go from the track to being a slab of meat in less than a week.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> My guess is that folks need to think of meat markets other than the EU. Let the prices rise in the EU, as regulation always does. It may be time to think of Asia as a horse meat market, and maybe developing it.
> 
> There isn't any good evidence that this will improve anyone's health. This is the EU protecting their farmers, who cannot compete with less regulated producers in America and elsewhere. There is no way most horses out west, at least, will ever have passports. Unwanted horses will end up shot in the wild, or simply released there. Then they will become prey...


 This law has nothing to do with prices it is to do with horse meat being treated in the same way as any other livestock meat - which also has laws on what animals can and cant be administered by way of drugs. The big difference is that because cattle for eg are bred for consumption extensive tests are done on how drugs effect them and what the withdraw periods are, these tests have never been carried out on horses
It doesnt concern you because you dont eat horse meat but if you did surely you'd want to know what you were eating was safe.
It has nothing to do with EU farmers either - they mostly dont produce horse meat and in the UK most domestic horses are passported as 'not allowed for slaughter for human consumption' so you can give them any medication you like
Also note that in the UK if your horse is registered with a breed studbook that counts as a passport so the same would apply here I imagine.
If people care so little about what happens to their horse when they have no use for it any more then maybe they should think twice about owning one. If all these people in the mid west weigh up the costs of a passport against what they will lose in slaughter sales then I'm sure they will be more than happy to comply - I cant imagine that if they think so little of their horses they ever bother using medications on them anyway
Why should people who do eat horse meat have to risk putting god only knows what into their stomachs just because some countries cant conform or dont want to conform with food safety standards. Asia is already a prime market for horse meat sales - why do you think people there are any less fussy about what goes on their plate than they are in Europe, horsemeat is not cheap.
List of top horsemeat producing countries


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The group of investors that is trying to get slaughter houses for horses set up here in the US (same group that has been working in Missouri) has been working on markets in Eastern Europe, Asia and in Africa (where good protein is almost non-existent. 

They have also conducted surveys among non-horsey people and ethnic groups here in the US and there appears to be a pretty good potential market here if the price is kept below beef. It is actually more healthy to eat than beef or pork. Horse-meat is called 'cheval' and will be marketed as such herein the US.

I am on this group's mailing list and have spoken many times to one of the organizers. I have been invited to become a member of this organization and invited to their meetings but since I have no actual business connections to horse processing, I have had no reason to join. One must be 'invited' and pass a background check that shows no ties to AR organizations. As a private group they have the right to screen members. I hope they succeed.

I also was sent results of a recent study conducted by Universities that studied the residue of medications that have not been tested in accordance with USDA standards. Bute is not allowed NOT because it persists in animal products but because it has not had official withdrawal times as recognized by USDA and is not labeled with withdrawal. They are trying to correct that now. 

If this will copy and paste, here are the results of these studies.


> *Subject: The public health risk of horse meat from American racehorses is unsubstantiated by the 2010 Dodman et al. paper published in the Journal, Food and Chemical Toxicology. *
> 
> In their paper,” Association of phenylbutazone usage with horses bought for slaughter: A public health risk”, the authors Nicolas Dodman, Nicolas Blondeau, and Ann Marini assert that human consumption of horsemeat following the administration of therapeutic amounts of the anti-inflammatory medication phenylbutazone (PBZ) could hold health risks similar to the direct consumption of the drug. Examples they included were case studies reported 25-62 years ago in which adults and children administered multiple human therapeutic PBZ doses experienced severe and sometimes fatal outcomes, most notably from aplastic anemia, a precursor to Leukemia.
> 
> ...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee, I eat chicken & beef & McDonald's hamburgers. The military has given me shots for anthrax and diseases that don't exist anymore outside of laboratories. I'm banned from donating blood because of when I lived in England. I don't give a rat's rear if someone gave a horse or steer a shot of bute at some point in its life. And do you think the dogs being butchered in Korea had 'passports'? I doubt it.

People squawk about drugs in meat, but we live longer than ever eating it.

The EU doesn't want cheap imported meat entering its markets. That is farmer driven. I remember the riots in the early 90s, as European farmers protested foreign meat coming in and underselling them. This is all about politics, not health. I feel safer eating a McDonald's hamburger, pink slime and all, than I would eating some of the meat I saw hanging in shops in Oxford England. When meat stinks, I don't eat it. Botulism is more dangerous than some bute shot given 3 years earlier.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

_


Cherie said:



The group of investors that is trying to get slaughter houses for horses set up here in the US (same group that has been working in Missouri) has been working on markets in Eastern Europe, Asia and in Africa (where good protein is almost non-existent. 

Click to expand...

_


Cherie said:


> _They have also conducted surveys among non-horsey people and ethnic groups here in the US and there appears to be a pretty good potential market here if the price is kept below beef. It is actually more healthy to eat than beef or pork. Horse-meat is called 'cheval' and will be marketed as such herein the US._
> These markets have already been systematically explored by European producers - they are close to Europe or already a part of so transportation costs are lower. The meat would still have to conform with the same standards as any other livestock so the same rules would apply - it would be unethical for any respected country to supply potentially harmful meat to anyone regardless of how 'needy' they might be
> Horse meat tends to be more expensive than other livestock meat as they dont utilise grass and grain as well as other animals so the meat costs more to produce - especially against chicken/poultry which is the more staple diet of poorer countries
> The reason horsemeat prices are high enough for the slaughter to be worthwhile is because its a delicacy. If sold as cheap meat to third world countries then the cost of producing would likely outweigh profits


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> jaydee, I eat chicken & beef & McDonald's hamburgers. The military has given me shots for anthrax and diseases that don't exist anymore outside of laboratories. I'm banned from donating blood because of when I lived in England. I don't give a rat's rear if someone gave a horse or steer a shot of bute at some point in its life. And do you think the dogs being butchered in Korea had 'passports'? I doubt it.
> 
> People squawk about drugs in meat, but we live longer than ever eating it.
> 
> The EU doesn't want cheap imported meat entering its markets. That is farmer driven. I remember the riots in the early 90s, as European farmers protested foreign meat coming in and underselling them. This is all about politics, not health. I feel safer eating a McDonald's hamburger, pink slime and all, than I would eating some of the meat I saw hanging in shops in Oxford England. When meat stinks, I don't eat it. Botulism is more dangerous than some bute shot given 3 years earlier.


 I dont get your argument at all.
Just because you dont care what you eat why do you expect other people to feel the same way?
Surely the US has food safety standards on livestock produced for consumption and what drugs are considered safe?
The blood donating ban is down to 'mad cow disease' - what has that got to do with anything - its no different to people with any other risks of blood borne diseases not being allowed to donate blood
As for the various vaccinations you've had - these are done on the basis of the risks of the vaccine outweighing the risks of getting the disease
Presumably you are not intended to go into the food chain
No one is refusing to accept US horsemeat - it just has to conform to the same standards as any other meat.
What is wrong with that?
What happens to meat after its left the slaughter yards is an entirely different matter - you could store it badly yourself. If I saw suspect looking meat in a butchers shop I'd call the relevant authorities and complain - these people are also under food safety laws too so have to comply, its up to the public to be vigilant and report things not just allow them to go on


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Let me explain the slaughter market to you (not just the horse slaughter market). You do not seem to understand the economics of it and how the 'free market' system or the slaughter market works.

There is a 'floor' or 'set in' price at all livestock auctions. If an old cow comes into the ring that is 12 years old, nearly toothless and Pg checked open, she will sell for $40.00 to $90.00 per cwt depending on how thin or fat she is and what she will 'dress'. They are called 'canners and cutters'. Fat steers coming out of a feedlot will bring as much as $130.00 cwt right now. They are called 'fat cattle'.

Likewise, thin horses going to slaughter right now only bring $50.00 to $100.00 per head. [Very thin ones are not accepted by the auction co.] That is about $15.00 or less per cwt at the better sales (like the one here in Sulphur, OK). An 1100# pound 'decent' horse (like a 5 or 6 body score) will bring $300.00 to $400.00 here. That would be around $25.00 to $30.00 per cwt. -- still much less (about 60% to 70% less) than even Holstein steers bring at market and they will not 'grade' choice or prime and usually become hamburger. Then, there are the few horses that are called #1s. These are 1300# + horses (not draft stock) that are 8 or higher body score. Even now, they will bring $600.00 to $700.00 here locally. They are the high priced 'premium' meat producers. This is the meat that is considered a 'delicacy' in Europe or Asian countries like Japan. Right now, fewer than 5% of the loose horses going through local sales will grade #1. 

Because of the high feed costs and low conversion rates of feed to meat, horses will NEVER be raised for meat here in the US. But, it is not a bad 'salvage' market for horses that are not useful for any other reason and are 'unwanted'. 

Back in the 80s when we had the last great horse sell-off, #1s were bringing $1000.00 to $1200.00 here (just a little less than fat beef). The main difference was the hauling to Texas versus hauling to Mexico. There were a lot more #1s back then and LOT fewer thin horses then. They had so much more value. Even in a recession, they were a lot fatter when they were sold.

Anyway, the thin and medium fat horses will become the 'cheap' meat for the poorer countries and poor people in other countries. The #1s and those close to that good a shape will become the premium meat. It will be no different than the cattle market. There are 'prime' steaks and then there is cheap hamburger, stew meat and bologna. Just like all beef is not the same -- all horse meat is not the same, and it is ALL market driven. As it gets more acceptance, the price will go up.

Personally, I hope it succeeds. It will mean horses will have better care and the markets for good horses will be driven up with the better 'floor' market.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Cherie - I'm not sure who your post was directed at but since my husband & I are both from agricultural backgrounds I know exactly how the livestock market works and it doesnt seem to be any different here than it is in the UK
Maybe I need to point out that I have no problem with slaughter yards and if people want to eat horsemeat or any other meat then thats their choice
Provided countries have no laws restricting them on what drugs etc they will accept in meat then there's nothing to stop anyone from exporting to there and as long as the meat is cheaper or at least comparable to anywhere else they'll buy it but its not just the cost of the animal its also the cost of slaughtering it and shipping it. Australia already has a huge stronghold on the asian market and horses in europe are selling for as low & lower prices than in the US - as long as they are 'allowed' for slaughter for human consumption thats where they go - no shortage of them.
What no country can do however is dictate to another one what it has to accept - the US certainly wouldnt allow that to happen here. They make their laws and other countries wanting to import have to abide by them
If you want to export to another country then you have to comply with their laws
There's nothing to prevent drug companies from doing drug withdraw tests on horses so the meat does comply - if it were to be sold in the US then it would have to comply with the same FDA standards as any other livestock.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Just because you don't care what you eat why do you expect other people to feel the same way?"

Because I really am not that weird or unusual. I've lived in Korea (1 year), Taiwan (2 years) and the Philippines (3.5 years). Lots of folks are like me, and believe in a "Don't ask, don't tell" approach to food. Heck, I only refused the open air markets selling meat in Oxford, England because their hanging birds and chunks of meat smelled bad enough to gag a maggot on a gut wagon. But it wasn't cheap, so I guess someone was willing to pay for smelly (oops, sorry, _aged_) meat.

Ever thought about haggis? "Fair fa' your honest, sonsie face, Great chieftain o' the puddin-race!" And you think I'm being picky?

It is kind of like the rabies quarantine England used to require. 6 months in a kennel, regardless of vaccinations, because England needed to make sure the dogs didn't have rabies. Right. Folks were making a killing off of that stupid rule, and it did nothing to keep England safe. But I remember the posters showing foaming-mouthed wolves leaping out of forests to get little girls on a picnic - nearly died laughing at that one! It was all politics and money, not safety. Same with the EU food rules.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> "Just because you don't care what you eat why do you expect other people to feel the same way?"
> 
> Because I really am not that weird or unusual. I've lived in Korea (1 year), Taiwan (2 years) and the Philippines (3.5 years). Lots of folks are like me, and believe in a "Don't ask, don't tell" approach to food. Heck, I only refused the open air markets selling meat in Oxford, England because their hanging birds and chunks of meat smelled bad enough to gag a maggot on a gut wagon. But it wasn't cheap, so I guess someone was willing to pay for smelly (oops, sorry, _aged_) meat.
> 
> ...


 My husband works for a company where they frequently have to travel to the sorts of countries you refer too - no one ever risks eating much at all there that isnt tinned or dried and recognisable. 
I would personally never eat haggis as I'm not a fan of offal but anything in it has to come from an approved source
The UK still has rabies laws - it had everythingto do with keeping people safe which is why its still rabies free and no one has to have rabies vaccinations as they do in the US so - that saves money for the majority. If you take your pets abroad now you can use the pet passport system and avoid quarantine
My horses had to spend a month in quarantine when they came to the US in accordance with US laws. My dogs didnt because the UK is rabies free and the US isnt
I think you will find that the US also has its own food laws and other laws regarding what you can and cant bring into the country - my decorative dried flowers and grasses were all confiscated at customs
The birds you saw hanging would have been game birds - pheasants etc, again not my taste but I've never heard of anyone dying from eating them that way - if someone was ill they'd soon have a legal action going


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

jaydee said:


> If you want to export to another country then you have to comply with their laws
> There's nothing to prevent drug companies from doing drug withdraw tests on horses so the meat does comply - if it were to be sold in the US then it would have to comply with the same FDA standards as any other livestock.


Absolutely. 

However the problem for me at least is how is this going to be enforced here. How will horse owners hear about it? How many of the people reading this thread were aware of these changes coming in July before I shared them, probably very few. 

And then none of that addresses what will happen to unwanted horses in the US.


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## crimsonsky (Feb 18, 2011)

AlexS said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> However the problem for me at least is how is this going to be enforced here. How will horse owners hear about it? How many of the people reading this thread were aware of these changes coming in July before I shared them, probably very few.
> 
> And then none of that addresses what will happen to unwanted horses in the US.


exactly. there is nothing currently set up in this country that labels one a horse owner. so how will horse owners be 1. identified and subsequently 2. notified.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"The UK still has rabies laws - it had everythingto do with keeping people safe which is why its still rabies free and no one has to have rabies vaccinations as they do in the US so - that saves money for the majority."

About 10 years ago the UK figured out this isn't 1903 and updated the laws for dogs coming from the US & Canada. It recently did likewise for a much larger group of countries. A dog that had a history of vaccination and that had a clear blood test NEVER needed a 6 month quarantine to protect the UK. It was about making money.

And frankly, rabies isn't a very big deal. If in doubt, take some shots. In the US, it results in about 2-3 deaths each year.

And as Cherie pointed out, there is no evidence that 'tainted US meat' has ANY negative health consequences. If they start slaughtering horses in the US and the price is right, I'll buy horsemeat. If I don't like the taste, I'll hang a slab next to the corral as a warning to my horses...


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## larood16 (Dec 5, 2012)

For some reason the the misconception that all at the unwated horses are old and used up is totally falsified! here are some horses that have recently been saved from the kill pens by and small non profit called The Starlight Sancuary. Most of the horses that go to slaughter are your and fit, otherwise they do not bring in very much profit. The real problem, at least I think, is over breeding in the US. I feel there should be some sort of certification you should have to apply for if you are going to breed more than 4 horses a year. Studs should be officially registered, and and same with small breeding operations. That way it will be mostly educated breeders, and the prices of horses may go up, but the majority of horse owners would be those that can afford good managment of their animals. But that is just my opinion. Any ways, the fallowing are pictures of horses that have been saved just this past week by the Starlight Sancuary. The paint and the sorrel mare are around 2, just saved from the kill pens. The appy and black morgan mare are from the newest set of kill pen horses destined for Canada unless bailed out. None in my opinion are "nags."


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

bsms said:


> And frankly, rabies isn't a very big deal. If in doubt, take some shots. In the US, it results in about 2-3 deaths each year.


Big deal or not, the UK is an island which does not have rabies. As an island it is easier to prevent diseases entering it's lands. To me it is common sense to take measures to prevent any disease not native to any country - whether that disease is big deal or not.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

AlexS said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> However the problem for me at least is how is this going to be enforced here. How will horse owners hear about it? How many of the people reading this thread were aware of these changes coming in July before I shared them, probably very few.
> 
> And then none of that addresses what will happen to unwanted horses in the US.


 I think thats more important. I certainly didnt know about it.
In the UK the media did a lot of informing and all vets had to advise their clients as did breed registeries, the BHS, Pony Club, riding clubs, competition venues and there were posters in feed stores and tack shops.
The only way it was enforced was any vet attending to your horse had to ask to see your passport re. if you'd allowed human consumption, all show venues etc required to see it and you couldnt sell at auction without one or send a horse to slaughter. If you bought a horse in any other way you were advised to demand a passport
Horses and ponies registered with a recognised breed society and TB's registered with the bloodstock agency didnt need one as they are all acceptable as passports
I imagine the same will be done here
I dont know what will happen to horses where owners wont pay the costs of euthanasia, it would be a good idea if charities could raise money to pay the costs of that in real hardship cases.
I dont know how it effects horses sold for meat in non EU countries either - maybe those markets will still be open
I'm not opposed to slaughter because there is a need for it but transporting horses to Canada and Mexico that are often sick and injured does not seem right to me.
The US needs to get its own yards up and running again so people can at least expect some humane treatment and maybe look into allowing horse meat back into the pet food industry. It has to follow the same rules as for human consumption in the UK but maybe the US would relax those


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Larood, it's not only the old and sick horses, I think most educated horse people know that. It's the unwanted horses. 

And (no offense) as cute as those horses are, what can they do? Are they any better than $500 or less horses on craigslist? 
They are not nags, but are they anything special either?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> "The UK still has rabies laws - it had everythingto do with keeping people safe which is why its still rabies free and no one has to have rabies vaccinations as they do in the US so - that saves money for the majority."
> 
> About 10 years ago the UK figured out this isn't 1903 and updated the laws for dogs coming from the US & Canada. It recently did likewise for a much larger group of countries. A dog that had a history of vaccination and that had a clear blood test NEVER needed a 6 month quarantine to protect the UK. It was about making money.
> 
> ...


 I somehow dont think that US people would feel very happy if they thought the meat they buy wasnt free of anything potentially harmful to them. You have the same drug laws for livestock production and slaughter as most other countries. If horses are to considered livestock in the meat production sense then they will have to be governed by the same rules as a beef animal.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

AlexS said:


> ...To me it is common sense to take measures to prevent any disease not native to any country - whether that disease is big deal or not.


Except the means of protection was stupid and expensive. If a dog had a history of rabies shots and passed a blood test, the UK didn't gain any additional protection by a 6 month quarantine. But a number of kennels gained a lot of money.

The regulations on meat isn't protecting anyone in the UK either. It's a smoke screen to stop foreign competition.


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## larood16 (Dec 5, 2012)

I would like to point out it is not always bloodlines that make a horse great, it is heart. Snowman, one of the BEST jumping horses in history was pulled off of a slaughter truck and went on to world glory! How would anyone know what these horses can do with out every giving them a chance! plus, the majority of horse owners and lovers do not really care about ribbons and trophies, but about a friend and companionship.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

bsms said:


> The regulations on meat isn't protecting anyone in the UK either. It's a smoke screen to stop foreign competition.


Meh I am not sure I agree entirely. It's not UK rules, it's EU rules. I don't know enough about Bute, but I do think that any meat that is to be consumed by humans should have standards. 
The EU has standards and if we wish to ship into those countries, we need to adhere to them. 

It's not as if the EU doesn't have these own standards for their own meat, they do. Why would they accept meat they deem to be not of the same standard from elsewhere.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Snowman was an exception to the rule. If you're going to throw him out there as an example, you need to know the_ majority_ of horses in the kill pens are there for a reason. And it's not because they're great examples of the equine species.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

larood16 said:


> I would like to point out it is not always bloodlines that make a horse great, it is heart. Snowman, one of the BEST jumping horses in history was pulled off of a slaughter truck and went on to world glory! How would anyone know what these horses can do with out every giving them a chance! plus, the majority of horse owners and lovers do not really care about ribbons and trophies, but about a friend and companionship.


 I'm not really sure what your point is here. Grade horses of unknown lineage performing at highly competitive levels are far and few between, which is why the few that have are so well-known. If you're going to buy the millions of horses from auctions every year to "give them all a chance", be my guest, but it's simply not feasible. There HAS to be an outlet for the glutton of excess horses out there.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

To be honest, the EU seems regulation happy to me. However, they certainly have the right to decide what is or is not acceptable to them and to apply those rules to all. That is why I think folks need to look to Asia and even the US as a market for slaughtered horses. The Eu isn't going to change, and beating one's head against a wall isn't very helpful.

If horses were slaughtered here in the US, with supervision to prevent needless cruelty, then I'd eat the meat if the price was right. I wouldn't want my horses to go to a slaughterhouse, but I wouldn't mind if they were killed on my property and then had the carcass taken to a nearby plant.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> Except the means of protection was stupid and expensive. If a dog had a history of rabies shots and passed a blood test, the UK didn't gain any additional protection by a 6 month quarantine. But a number of kennels gained a lot of money.
> 
> The regulations on meat isn't protecting anyone in the UK either. It's a smoke screen to stop foreign competition.


 People in the UK dont have their dogs vaccinated for rabies. The quarantine period is about incubation and its thanks to that we are still rabies free there - in a population thats so tight together that is really important. 
I'm sorry but I dont see what right you have to say what another country should or shouldnt do to protect its borders or its food safety. 
You try telling the UK population that suddenly all sorts of drugs are going into their meat and there would be a massive outcry.
They get hysterical about what gets sprayed on crops and those things take 7 years of testing to reach the shelves - the US is no different, Meryl Streep led a successful campaign her in CT to get a chemical banned from orchard use that was totally safe if used correctly
Why do you insist on saying that its only the EU that has food safety requirements?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_The quarantine period is about incubation and its thanks to that we are still rabies free there - in a population that's so tight together that is really important._"

Then you are in deep deep doo-doo, because the rules changed 10 years ago for dogs from the US & Canada, and last year from most European countries. Had a big rise in rabies over the last 10 years? No...I thought not. The rules were about 50 years out of date.

"_Why do you insist on saying that its only the EU that has food safety requirements?_"

I haven't said that. I just said their rules were stupid and based on hysteria and unthinking nincompoops. OK, I hadn't said that before, but will now. Still, they aren't going to change so once again I conclude that we need to look elsewhere, because a passport system isn't going to work in the USA.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Conway said:


> Does anyone else wonder if this will lead to commercial market farms for horses in the US in the future?? To fit some need for horsemeat in other countries.
> 
> I'm not against slaughter in the least, there has to be an outlet for unwanted horses. Rescues just can't take them in and neither can people like us who get dumped with unwanted nags.
> 
> BUT the thought of intentionally raising horses for slaughter turns my stomach... Feeding them out like cattle. I'm not sure why, I understand that they are livestock...


Those farms already exist. They are just flying under the radar for now.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> "_The quarantine period is about incubation and its thanks to that we are still rabies free there - in a population that's so tight together that is really important._"
> 
> Then you are in deep deep doo-doo, because the rules changed 10 years ago for dogs from the US & Canada, and last year from most European countries. Had a big rise in rabies over the last 10 years? No...I thought not. The rules were about 50 years out of date.
> 
> ...


 Get your facts right - the rules havent changed at all. You now have to have a pet passport with a series of recorded vaccinations and tests before you can get a pet in - without that you still have to undergo the same quarantine rules. The only reason there is a change is because the vaccinations and tests are so much more improved than they were 10+ years ago
As for selling elsewhere - you still have to find a country that will accept meat that may contain drug residues.
I think China is currently banning pork from the US because of some drug they dont recognise as safe. This is from January so might now be settled
but this is from a country who as you rightly say are happy to eat dogs
Dispute Over Drug in Feed Limiting US Meat Exports | Food and Environment Reporting Network


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It seems that the US also has bute on its resticted and/or prohibited drug list amongst others in general livestock meat animals so horses if used for meat here would have to conform in the same way. 
There would have to be some means of keeping track on what meds they were given
Food Animal Drug Residue Avoidance & Depletion - A component of the US Chemical Food Safety Program


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I know we all prefer to eat fresh meat, veggies, whatever, but I kind of think our solution to all these other countries telling us how to raise our animals might be to just go ahead and process them as they are and then freeze the produce. If another country wants it, they can send a buyer HERE and arrange shipments. If they don't want to buy it, we just solved the problem of hunger in the US and they can get their protein elsewhere. I don't see us losing, either way.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

i am still scratching my head about how is rabies relevant to EU regulations about horse meat... but whatever. 





jaydee said:


> It seems that the US also has bute on its resticted and/or prohibited drug list amongst others in general livestock meat animals so horses if used for meat here would have to conform in the same way.
> There would have to be some means of keeping track on what meds they were given
> Food Animal Drug Residue Avoidance & Depletion - A component of the US Chemical Food Safety Program



Thank you for that, I wondered about that. So the problem is that we need an alternative to Bute.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Did you read the paper written by the scientists that have been studying the elimination of Bute from horses? I posted it earlier in this thread.

We do not need an alternative to Bute. We just need the UDSA and the drug manufacturer to get together and set up University testing to come up with official 'withdrawal times' for Bute and any other drugs commonly used in horses. 

They are also going to set up recognized laboratory testing that tests animals prior to slaughter to look for any residues of any drugs. 

Since the half life of Bute has been shown to only be 5 to 6 hours, it is impossible for a person eating horsemeat the day after a horse was given Bute to eat enough to even find it in their system.

We don't need a different drug. It would more than likely require a longer withdrawal. Wejust need an official withdrawal time on Bute and other equine drugs. They just have not been established and need to be.


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## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

Don't care what you think... I want to raise horses for slaughter. Let them be wild. Do what they want. Pull a Yellowstone and not touch them and round up like once the pop gets to big. 

Don't like it stay off my mountain. 

If people wanna eat it let them. We eat beef and pork while others do not. And i will respect that as long as they respect me stuffing a nice medium rare steak down my throat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Get your facts right - the rules havent changed at all. You now have to have a pet passport with a series of recorded vaccinations and tests before you can get a pet in - without that you still have to undergo the same quarantine rules.


Prior to about 2002, there were no exceptions to the quarantine. Then the US & Canada were excepted, and now most of Europe. And no, vaccinations have not improved over the last 10-20 years.

The relevance to the horse meat discussion is that both the rabies scam and the horrible meat scam are both based on rabid hysteria rather than science. That, and making money for a small but influential market.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms - you obviously know very liitle about rabies vaccinations and the improvements in them over the years
Rabies vaccines: a review of progress towards impro... [BioDrugs. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI
Though what this has to do with horse slaughter for human consumption defeats me
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13582-bringing-pets-to-uk-120229.pdf
Details on the UK pet passprt system - these apply to UK owners only and you have to conform to them
If your pet doesnt conform then quarantine laws still apply
Quarantine « Defra
*ARE YOU NOT AWARE THAT THE US ALSO HAS QUARANTINE LAWS*
Again - This has nothing to do with the meat programme DISCUSSED IN THIS THREAD
*DO YOU THINK THESE PROHIBITED DRUG RULES ONLY APPLY IN THE EU?*
Do you for some reason think that the UK is the EU? It isnt.
UK horse owners had to comply with the EU passport laws just so *some* people could sell their unwanted horses for human consumption. The majority of us had no need for it.
There are already many far safer alternatives to bute - look up the side effects and risks - nothing to do with human consumption
It is a prohibited drug in all livestock meat - *IN THE US* - Not just for horses in the EU
Argue it with the FDA and their scientists
If a horse is to be treated as a livestock animal then it has to meet the same rules they do - *WHY DO YOU THINK THEY ONLY APPLY TO EU ANIMALS - CHECK US LAWS ON PROHIBITED DRUGS FOR MEAT ANIMALS*
They are no different
If you look on most animal medications and even some supplements you will see the words
NOT FOR ANIMALS INTENDED FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION
Why should horse meat be an exception if they are going to be on someones dinner plate?
If the US decides to become a nation of horsemeat eaters they will adopt the same rules.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Is this a good time to mention I've been fed meat marked not fit for human consumption by the very same gov't who made those rules? Got to love life in the military!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

jaydee said:


> In the UK the media did a lot of informing and all vets had to advise their clients as did breed registeries, the BHS, Pony Club, riding clubs, competition venues and there were posters in feed stores and tack shops.
> The only way it was enforced was any vet attending to your horse had to ask to see your passport re. if you'd allowed human consumption, all show venues etc required to see it and you couldnt sell at auction without one or send a horse to slaughter. If you bought a horse in any other way you were advised to demand a passport
> Horses and ponies registered with a recognised breed society and TB's registered with the bloodstock agency didnt need one as they are all acceptable as passports
> I imagine the same will be done here.


Perhaps, but only bc we've been required to have a neg. Coggins at auctions at least since I've frequented them, since the mid-1980's. CERTAINLY it would create more government bureaucracy, which I have had enough of---T.E.A. 


jaydee said:


> I dont know what will happen to horses where owners wont pay the costs of euthanasia, it would be a good idea if charities could raise money to pay the costs of that in real hardship cases.


Are you joking? People in trouble are competing for $unemployment in this crummy economy. There is a thread now about not being able to keep/feed/medicate a horse dumped in somebody's pasture--how do we come up with the money to pay for this? Dream on...


jaydee said:


> I'm not opposed to slaughter because there is a need for it but transporting horses to Canada and Mexico that are often sick and injured does not seem right to me.


A new problem, since the non-horse owning bleeding hearts changed a slaughterhouse system that was working. *THIS was the argument used to close these slaughterhouses,* and this didn't happen routinely until they closed.


jaydee said:


> The US needs to get its own yards up and running again so people can at least expect some humane treatment and maybe look into allowing horse meat back into the pet food industry. It has to follow the same rules as for human consumption in the UK but maybe the US would relax those.


Doubt it. In NYC restaurants can't use too much salt, or sell mega-sized soft drinks. More regulation on the way, so I don't think so.
THE WHOLE THING sounds like Rahm Emmanuel's, "Don't let a crises go to waste."
Totally disgusted. It will only make lawful citizens into criminals, and cause the rest of us to quietly disobey NEW legislation, just like when FDR was in office and we had a happy, healthy black market.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Well it seems to me that the US is going to have to come up with some solutions to its problems and pretty fast as its obvious that the EU is no longer prepared to be the answer and is firmly slamming the door shut on being a dumping ground for unwanted horses from another country that dont comply with standards set for ALL meat thats intended for human consumption - and these are the same standards in the US.
People will have to decide if they are keeping a horse as a pet/riding animal and treat it in the way they would a dog or if they are breeding for meat as per cattle. pigs, sheep etc. Farmers already manage to comply with these laws or suffer the consequences
Records Can Help Ensure Food Safety
Whether you like bureaucracy or not you're stuck with it because its a far bigger animal than the likes of you or I could ever take on, complaining on this forum about it isnt going to solve anything - write to the EU if you want to make your feelings heard
I really dont understand what people are finding so hard about having a passport for a horse, its no different to a breed registery document or FEI registry which can be used in the UK. It took no more than half an hour per horse for someone to do ours - exactly like doing a Coggins certificate and cost just a few pounds. It didnt hurt at all


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The US has a very different tradition of freedom than England or the EU. That tradition is dying, but it isn't dead yet. I haven't heard of US cattle having 'passports', and it will take even longer to get them adopted for horses. The horse market is already depressed by the expense of keeping a horse...don't want to think about what would happen if you had to have a vet document everything you do in a passport.

I don't live that far from a vet, but it is $75 for one to drive by in the day. $300 at night. Those prices buy me a view of the vet waving as they pass by. Once they stop, the price starts going up. And I know a lot of places that are 100 miles from the nearest vet, and those are not freeway miles! A friend of mine runs cattle and sheep, herding them with horses and dogs, in a place where the vet would need to drive all day just to get there. And if it had rained, he might not be able to get there at all for several days.

Yes, the EU can and will require it. So we need to look elsewhere, or start using horse meat for food in the US.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> The US has a very different tradition of freedom than England or the EU. That tradition is dying, but it isn't dead yet. I haven't heard of US cattle having 'passports', and it will take even longer to get them adopted for horses. The horse market is already depressed by the expense of keeping a horse...don't want to think about what would happen if you had to have a vet document everything you do in a passport.
> 
> I don't live that far from a vet, but it is $75 for one to drive by in the day. $300 at night. Those prices buy me a view of the vet waving as they pass by. Once they stop, the price starts going up. And I know a lot of places that are 100 miles from the nearest vet, and those are not freeway miles! A friend of mine runs cattle and sheep, herding them with horses and dogs, in a place where the vet would need to drive all day just to get there. And if it had rained, he might not be able to get there at all for several days.
> 
> Yes, the EU can and will require it. So we need to look elsewhere, or start using horse meat for food in the US.


 I'm afraid the US definition of freedom is no different to the UK one. I've lived here for 5 years now and see no difference at all
The UK had to comply with EU laws on passports so they could still send horses for slaughter for human consumption and pet food - no alternative markets were ever found. Basically if horse meat is eaten it has to be treated the same as any other meat
US farmers are required by US law to keep records of all medications they use on their livestock. The penalty fines are pretty severe if deep tissue tests reveal misuse
None of my UK horses has a single entry on their passports for medications used because none of them are 'allowed' for slaughter for human consumption. Only horses intended to end up on a plate will need to have records made.
If you use horse meat for food in the US you will still have to conform with exactly the same standards of record keeping that apply to other US livestock. You can check these on the FDA website. Its really clear.
So far horses have been considered as a pet animal and not a farm animal
I wont even start to tell you that no residue tests have ever been done on horses fed on crops sprayed with any chemicals - something that all crop protection chemical companies have to do - but its a worldwide (not just EU) requirement for all other livestock.
Thats going to be the next thing on the list now that horses are being reclassified as meat for human consumption


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I'm afraid the US definition of freedom is no different to the UK one. I've lived here for 5 years now and see no difference at all...


Yes, but you live in Connecticut. It is part of the liberal NE stronghold, matched by California on the other side of the country. Folks living in fly-over country often take a different view, which is why we aren't a completely socialist country by now.

"_US farmers are required by US law to keep records of all medications they use on their livestock._"

Let's just say I'm skeptical. Maybe once they hit a feed yard, but I'd be surprised if folks grazing cattle in the west track every shot they give. Still, I've been wrong before...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...s-u-s-pushes-national-livestock-tracking.html


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I based my understanding of US farm record keeping on several reports including this one from the FDA website
Of course people will be non compliant, they see it as a risk worth taking but if found negligent I'm not sure if it is as the penalties seem pretty high
If we gave antibiotics to the dairy cows their milk had to be thrown away. If it went into the bulk tank by accident and was picked up on a test you lost all that milk plus a big fine so never worth the risk as it also cost you your reputation
As far as the livestock tracing it seems that they eventually decided to accept various forms of ID - branding, ear tagging etc.
The horse passport thing is not as much to control what drugs you give if you allow them into the food chain but to know who they belong too if they get tested positive. Its a risk some people will be willing to take I'm sure as there's a big difference between a one off owner of a horse and a cattle rancher with a hug herd who's livelihood depends on it
It was interesting to see that the US and India were the only countries that didnt have a traceability programme for livestock on the 2011 report you linked.
I'm trying to put my thoughts, interpretations and opinions based on facts and not my own personal arguments based on what I think should happen/not happen
*bsms* - You and *Cherie* would both like the US to eat horse meat - I dont have a problem with that
*Corporal* says that will never happen in a million years as sensitivities on this are too high - I think she's probably right yet for some reason I felt as if I was getting bashed by her for suggesting it be used for pet food.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Jaydee thank you for sharing your thoughts. I was either without horses or already living in the US by the time the passport requirements were introduced (not sure when that happened). 

I appreciate the input you are able to give about how it worked in the UK.


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