# Gag Bit Opinions?



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A GAG BIT is used by some, to control a horse that runs though abit, an dis also used by some people in speed events.
It is not a bit that belongs in any regular good riding program
Why can you not get a regular snaffle? A horse's mouth is worth preserving, and aplain snaffle is not expensive


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

For some horses, with some riders, gag bits are fine. Just like any other bit, IMO.


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Are you sure it is a Snaffle? Snaffles by themselves arent usually gags, they have a curb portion. Loose ring Snaffles are closest to a gag and all they do is slide before putting pressure, but theyre not harsher. They do need a bit guard for pinching. 

A true gag has a curb. you should only ride in it with gentle hands on a well broke horse, and for a reason. Not just because it is all you have. but theyre not bad bits. I ride ”my” gelding in a Jr cowhorse dogbone gag and he is lovely in it. He goes fine in a Snaffle too but I like my bit for it's refinement and he likes the action more than with a normal curb for some reason. If he likes it, I like it. Haha. I barely have to move my hands and he responds though, because he is first and formost trained to leg and seat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

just as an aside, gag bits are not legal in judged show events, stock horse, anyways
If you need to ride your horse in a gag, he needs re -training, JMO
And no, gag bits are certainly not all curbs.

http://www.horsenation.com/2012/06/07/a-bit-of-advice-gag-bits/

Her is info on gag bits, as to various design, both English

and western. English, they are usually used with two reins

Gag bit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

If it's something like this can't you just attach the reins normally and not use the gag portion?

That said, just buy the proper bit. Something like a non gag simple snaffle would be pretty easy and affordable.


----------



## myhorseisthebest (Dec 4, 2013)

I'm wanting to get one soon but haven't been able to yet.

The gag bit doesn't look like any Smilie posted, lemme find a pic.

Can you just use it without the shank and it doesn't gag?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I really need to see a pic (or a similar pic from google) as I am getting confused!


----------



## myhorseisthebest (Dec 4, 2013)

Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Stainless Steel Wonder Gag Bit

This is the one I have, it was given to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I see several options with that bit.

You COULD attach it as a loose ring but then you'll have random hunks of metal poking out. Like a loose ring+ full cheek and not in a good way.

Personally IF appropriate I would use it as is, it's not as harsh as what I was picturing.

That said if you're using it to use it, don't.

My point:

Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Loose Ring Snaffle Bit - 5 1/4"

Same thing same site for < $10.00

Just buy a new bit.

If she's going well in what she's currently using get a size up of the same thing. (what is she currently using?)


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If the cheeks are put on the small top rings and your reins onto the large ring then you will not get a lot of leverage so not a lot different to a snaffle.


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

I had a TBx that was young, and ridden in a three ring dutch gag.

The previous owner would point, let the mare run/jump anything in sight and yank on her mouth for stop.

First time I rode I put a snaffle on her. My mistake, I shouldn't have expected more.. she just took the bit and ran with me.

Over time I moved the reins up each ring until we graduated to a snaffle.

I either rode in that gag and had the chance to re-teach the horse, or I put a snaffle in and hung on till she was done with her running. 

It's not a bit I would chose to move up to, unless the horse was becoming too strong and needed correction. It's not a bit you should use to hang on to the mouth and teach "woah" out of.


----------



## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

What type of gag is it? What's your reasoning for wanting to use it on said horse (aside from not having anything else?)

I think they have their time and place. ANY bit can be harsh in the wrong hands, and I like to stick to a simple loose-ring french link on all horses, unless they truly need something stronger.

I have one mare (had her 12 years this year), and have had her in a 3-ring dutch gag (bean mouthpiece) for ~2 years. I've tried many other bits and this is just what she goes best in. She likes it, I like it. I almost always have a very slack rein when I ride any horse, this mare included. BUT I like the option that if I do need to pick up significant contact, I can put the bit to use and that's what works for us.

I would not recommend that option to anyone, unless other options have been exhausted (most likely training or pain issue if the horse is having issues undersaddle, though in some cases the horse truly does need a stronger bit, and in the right hands I think that's perfectly okay).


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

myhorseisthebest said:


> The only bits I have right now is one that pinches my mares cheeks and a gag bit.
> 
> The gag bit is a snaffle.
> 
> I was wondering if a gag bit is ok to use on lose reins and not pulling on the horses mouth too much?


The bit that you posted is a Wonder Bit. Yes, it is a gag bit. 

No, it is not a snaffle. But it does have a single jointed mouthpiece. A snaffle is a bit that does not have any leverage. The Wonder Bit (when used as it was designed) is a curb bit because it has leverage. 

You are correct that you don't want to have constant pressure on the reins with a gag bit, because then the bit will be engaged the entire time. 

Also, as a general note, it is my opinion that ANY gag bit *needs* to be used with bit guards. Always. There are sliding parts with a gag bit and there is always the chance that skin can get pinched, and that is not pleasant for your horse. 

It's also really important to keep a gag bit clean so that the mouthpiece can easily slide and not get "stuck" on gunk. 

A Wonder Bit is a decent bit. For myself personally, I've never had a horse that liked a Wonder Bit very much, but it is a decent bit. 

_I guess the biggest question:_ How does your horse like this bit? How does she respond to it? Are you having any problems?



Smilie said:


> It is not a bit that belongs in any regular good riding program


??? Why so against gags?

My regular riding bit for Red is a gag. He goes great in it. Rode my previous horse in this one all the time too. Granted, it doesn't have as much gag as some bits (like the Wonder Bit in question) but it is still a gag. 














Smilie said:


> And no, gag bits are certainly not all curbs.
> 
> http://www.horsenation.com/2012/06/07/a-bit-of-advice-gag-bits/



I disagree. Gag bits are always curb bits. In that link you posted, which yes are gag bits, but they all have leverage of some sort; making them curb bits. 

A gag can't be a gag, _without leverage_ to give you that poll pressure and the sliding action of the mouthpiece. It might not have a typical shank, but I would definatly not call any of those bits snaffles (that are in that link), because there is leverage present.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A curb bit has a curb strap. A gag bit may or may not. Both have leverage, neither is a snaffle, but they are not all curb bits.

The gag can rotate until either it reaches the end of the ring or until a curb strap engages. A curb needs to be ridden with a curb strap to prevent it from rotating too far and applying harsh pressure.

A gag bit that doesn't use a curb strap:


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

okay, looked at that link more closely, showing that English gag , used with two reins, and I see it does have leverage-so, yes, acurb, when the gag is activated by the one set of those double reins, other wise, a snaffle effect, using the second set of reins

Why do I not like gag bits, Beau? Well, you run games, but you must also realize that gag bits are not legal in judged western events. Surely, you don't use a gag, showing western pl or reining, or maybe you do, if you just show open, and not stock horse breed
I guess, for me, a gag bit falls into the same general spot as tie downs or other devises that are meant to try and 'control' a horse, versus getting good basics on him
I can see where there is applicatrion in 'adrenaline type events', like polo and games, but if a general pleasure or trail horse needs to be ridden in agag or tie down, that equals lack of softness and training to me

Far as those English Gag bits, ridden with double reins, the one set of reins just use snaffle effect, with the reins that create a gag effect, only engaged if needed.
With a western gag, that option does not exist, far as I can see
The word, ;gag; implies the control that a gag bit is designed to exert.
Yes, yes, it is the hands on the bit, that create severity, BUT you have to consider hands standard, in order to grade any bit, and , just by the action of a gag, I do not see how it promotes a well trained soft mouthed horse, thus my opinion, regarding a gag bit fitting into a good training program.
Lets just say, even when I ran games, i never had a horse that needed a gag bit


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

But what if they prefer a gag bit? "my" gelding (I keep putting that in quotations because he is not mine, I ride him for his owner 2-3 x a week, but I do all of his training maintenance) can ride in just about anything out on the trails around any sorts of obstacles and at whatever speed I ask him for. Rope halter, snaffle, curb, whatever. But there is no doubt that he is happier in some than in others. I ride with very sympathetic hands, but I noticed that if I had to use anything more than the slightest twitch of my hand in the bit his old owner/trainer gave us (which was this: Classic Equine Performance Series Smooth Snaffle With Dog Bone Bit , Classic Equine Performance 5") he'd gape his mouth and immediately thrust his tongue out. Mind you I was not in any way jerking on his mouth. He listened to me, but he was constantly opening and closing his mouth, messing with his tongue, etc. 

When he started having some minor problems with his neck reining, specifically in the arena, (his actual owner is an advanced beginner rider so we're constantly going back and rehearsing some of his training, which is to be expected) I switched him back into a single joint snaffle again. Same issue- but I kept it just because I refuse to direct rein in a curb like he was wearing.

Then, we bought a gelding who was going to be a kids horse, and he came with a jr. cowhorse bit. Obviously I wouldn't have a child ride in a gag, so we put him in the snaffle and I decided on a whim to try Nacho (the gelding I'm talking about) in the jr. cowhorse since I'm familiar with it (have ridden many horses in one) and I had suspicions that Nacho was doing all of the funky mouth stuff because of his rather thick tongue. I put the bit on him and headed out....and I literally felt like I was riding a different horse. I hadn't even realized just how resistant he was being until I felt him free up and stop focusing on what his was mouth. Suddenly he was responding faster and lighter to my leg and seat aids, and he stopped fidgeting with his mouth. He seems to greatly prefer the poll pressure (which really isn't intense compared to some gags) and lip action to tongue and palate, and I haven't looked back. If he likes it, why question it? 

Now, please don't think I'm advocating putting your lesson horses in a jr cowhorse, or even having the OP ride in her Wonder Bit gag (I personally feel like they're a little harsher than what I use) but I am saying that different horses like different mechanics, and if you have the ability to ride in a gag, go for it. They do not have to be harsh and they actually give a fair bit of warning before actually acting if you use them right. I think the name itself, gag, scares a lot of people off honestly. I know that as a young teen I used to automatically tell people "NEVER USE A GAG THEY'RE CRUEL) because of their name, without ever actually looking into how they worked. And of course I definitely understand the issue of them not being allowed in the show ring, and why you wouldn't want to only use that if you showed. But just like any other piece of equipment it has its time and place. You may know, tie downs also have their time and place. Not as a bandaid for head tossing, but for the horse to lean on when doing high action events such as roping. Used properly gags are no bandaid, they're just a different approach. 


But back on the subject of the OP's mare, my personal immediate reaction is that if you're asking what the bit does or if it is ok, then you probably ought not to ride in it. Like Jaydee says you can easily turn it into a makeshift snaffle, but be careful about getting the reins snagged on the rest of the bit. I also would say no to riding in that bit if it is twisted wire, as that makes it significantly more harsh. If you do ride in it, you KNOW it pinches her mouth, so only ride in it if you're willing to go get bit guards. There is no excuse for knowing it pinches but not doing anything about it and riding in it anyways. Or just ride in your halter for a few weeks until you have $15 to spare for a snaffle. I've been riding one of "my" guys in a rope halter for the past two weeks while waiting for a new custom sized headstall to come in, and if your horse is well trained and you're just dinking around on the trails and arena like I do, it shouldn't really make a difference.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is referred to as a gag bit, but it is NOT a curb bit:

















​ 
It uses leverage, but the mechanic are very different from a curb bit. The curb strap limits the rotation of the top of the bit. Once the top of the bit is anchored in place by the curb strap, a continued pull applies leveraged force down against the bars at the bit tries to rotate around the top end.








​ 
Gag bits do not apply pressure down against the bars, but back up in the mouth - as pulling straight back on a snaffle would if the horse has its head out, only with leverage. It is a squeezing action, contracting the circle around the poll and mouth.
"When the reins are pulled, the mouthpiece slides upward in the horse's mouth and transfers some of the pressure from the tongue and bars to the lips and poll...

...It might be thought that the gag functions to lower the head because tension on the reins places pressure on the poll. But, because the horse's mouth is much more sensitive to pressure than is its poll, the net effect of the gag bit, used with no auxiliary aids, is to accentuate the basic head-raising action of a snaffle bit."

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaepfocus/2006/bennett1.pdf​Thus one of the other names of some gag bits: "Elevator bit".

The pdf above shows X-rays of various bits in action inside the mouth.

Some bits combine a gag with a curb strap, such as the Jr Cow Horse. FWIW, my mare liked the JCH bit with a roller once it was in her mouth. She just doesn't much like a loose, floppy bit going in. But in many cases, a gag bit will not use a curb strap, and its leverage is applied to a different location than a normal curb bit.

A "wonder bit":










is functionally an elevator bit, unless combined with a curb strap - only the shape of the bottom rings differs.


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

You're right, the correct term would have been leverage bit- not curb. But it is most definitely not a snaffle!


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm not sure why the name matters... The OP posted the bit she wants to used and asked if she can use it as a loose ring snaffle. The answer is yes though there are different options and it's clearly not the intention (and again I advocate spending a whole $10 and getting an actual loose ring snaffle that can be used as intended without random metal pieces poking out)


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It is not uncommon for a thread to go beyond the initial question asked. While names are not critical, how a bit functions is useful to know - and a gag bit and curb bit often function differently.

If she wants to use the Wonder Bit as a snaffle by directly connecting the reins to the large circle, then bit guards would probably help her horse a lot.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BMS, looking at those pics you posted, with gag bits, do you see one happy relaxed horse?
I don't. I see horses with their mouths forced shut by nosebands, but NOT one example of a horse, with a quiet relaxed mouth, on a loose rein, no nose band and no cavasson, and certainly not all that bit pressure
I rest my case. Gag bits are for horses where, you need 'control', versus using a bit, like a curb for increased finesse (corretcly , of course )


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sorry, I'm going to hav eto learn how to do multi quotes correctly, but in response to the following:

#*17* Endiku 


User
Horses
 Teen Forum Moderator
   


But what if they prefer a gag bit? "my" gelding (I keep putting that in quotations because he is not mine, I ride him for his owner 2-3 x a week, but I do all of his training maintenance) can ride in just about anything out on the trails around any sorts of obstacles and at whatever speed I ask him for. Rope halter, snaffle, curb, whatever. But there is no doubt that he is happier in some than in others. I ride with very sympathetic hands, but I noticed that if I had to use anything more than the slightest twitch of my hand in the bit his old owner/trainer gave us (which was this: Classic Equine Performance Series Smooth Snaffle With Dog Bone Bit , Classic Equine Performance 5") he'd gape his mouth and immediately thrust his tongue out. Mind you I was not in any way jerking on his mouth. He listened to me, but he was constantly opening and closing his mouth, messing with his tongue, etc.

That is NOT a Snaffle, that is a curb, and not a good one!!!!! Inspite of catalog in correct terminology, any bit with leverage is a curb, regardless of mouth piece


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Endiku, I'm left wondering if you know what a snaffle bit is, as it is hard to discuss bits, if you consider a bit with a jointed mouth piece, a snaffle
A snaffle, is a non leverage bit, thus reins attach directly where that bit exits the mouth. Once you add shanks, that bit is a curb
Since most snaffles have aj ointed mouth piece, the terrible oxymoron, 'jointed snaffle] came into vogue, as it is much easier to say that a curb with a jointed mouth piece
Professionals, and people that show, realize that a bit with a jointed mouth and shanks is really a curb, but unfortunately many non professionals and recreational riders, do not, and there in lies the problem
You train a horse correctly in a snaffle, so that he 'graduates to being able to be ridden one handed, on a loose rein, in a curb. This gives added finesse, although, of course, a curb can be used incorrectly, by ignorant people, or ahorse that has not had the correct education in a true snaffle
Point being, there is nothing about a gag bit that works on being able to use more finesse, on a horse trained correctly, through the snaffle bit stage.
A gag bit is used for more control, not finesse, period!
Yes, there are times that the added control might be needed, on a horse, but lets not cloud the issue and consider a gag bit anything that belongs in a program, where the ultimate goal is to have a horse that rides mainly off of seat and legs and on a loose rein
There is a reason gag bits are not legal in western judged performance events or dressage!
Don't compare agag bit, to riding with a curb that has a jointed mouth, with two hands , and with a dog bone mouth piece-please!!!!!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm not sure why the name matters... The OP posted the bit she wants to used and asked if she can use it as a loose ring snaffle. The answer is yes though there are different options and it's clearly not the intention (and again I advocate spending a whole $10 and getting an actual loose ring snaffle that can be used as intended without random metal pieces poking out)


 Amen
Unless the horse needs a gag bit for control, and if you rather not go back to basics and educate that horse, buy a plain snaffle. They are neither r hard to come by, nor expensive
I hate, hate, combo bits, where you change the action, by rein attachmnet, from curbs to snaffles, or to gag , in this case


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> BMS, looking at those pics you posted, with gag bits, do you see one happy relaxed horse?
> I don't...


If I could find a picture of my mare in a Jr Cow Horse Dogbone bit with roller, you would see a relaxed horse. She used to get nervous and then play with the roller. However, it was a pretty mild gag action and mostly a curb bit. I tried a "Wonder Bit" with Mia...went over like the proverbial "Turd in a Punchbowl".

I tried a 4-ring elevator bit with her. However, it had thick hollow mouthpieces and I think it pinched. It was NOT a hit with her! She also hated a french link snaffle version with a similar mouthpiece.

I'm not a fan of gag bits. If I want my bit to ram back into my horse's mouth, I can do that by being harsh with a standard snaffle...although I don't know why I'd want to do that. After at least 30 bits, we've pretty much settled on either a Billy Allen curb or a single joint D-ring snaffle. She used to like rollers, but now she ignores them. She is starting to act like Trooper, in that he doesn't care what bit you put in his mouth as long as you don't use it for anything but hanging the far end of the reins...:lol:

But can I imagine a horse doing fine in a gag? Yep. Most of what Mia does seems to contradict what everyone says a horse will do. You can ride her in a Tom Thumb and she'll be content...now. But I'll probably stick to the Billy Allen and single joint D-ring from here on out. Just about everything I want to do with my horses can be done with those. But I've used so many "wrong" bits with my horse, often with a decent response, that I won't tell others to not use a certain bit. Some horses are just weird.


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Smilie I believe you completely misunderstood my post. I'll quote myself here.



Endiku said:


> I noticed that if I had to use anything more than the slightest twitch of my hand in the bit his old owner/trainer gave us (which was this: Classic Equine Performance Series Smooth Snaffle With Dog Bone Bit , Classic Equine Performance 5") he'd gape his mouth and immediately thrust his tongue out. Mind you I was not in any way jerking on his mouth. He listened to me, but he was constantly opening and closing his mouth, messing with his tongue, etc.
> 
> *When he started having some minor problems *with his *neck reining*, specifically in the arena, (his actual owner is an advanced beginner rider so we're constantly going back and rehearsing some of his training, which is to be expected) * I switched him back into a single joint snaffle again. **Same issue- but I kept it just because I refuse to direct rein in a curb like he was wearing.*


I don't know, maybe the way I worded that was confusing? But I assure you that I am _very_ aware that the Classic Equine bit is not a snaffle whatsoever. It has leverage. And I concur that it is a piece of crap- but alas it is what he came with so his actual owner wasn't particularly interested in my changing the bit until I explained to her why he needed to go back into the snaffle- so that I could direct rein him while working through some arena problems. (he was very arena sour. He is fine now after some work.)

So, we went from:

He came with his old trainer's bit: Classic Equine 5" dogbone

After he developed some problems with not wanting to respond to me neckreining him, and evading my legs- I put him in a single joint O ring snaffle.

Then, after correcting his issue, and getting a new bit that came with another horse, I swapped their bits. The kid horse was given the single joint O ring, and Nacho, the gelding I ride, is in a Jr. Cowhorse. The Classic Equine is sitting in the garage growing rust. :lol:

In either of the curbs, I always neck rein with the exception of an occasional bump. In the snaffle, I both direct and neck rein. Hopefully that clears it up? 

I also am not using the gag to get more finesse than my snaffle- but snaffles are not made to neck rein in. Of course you CAN, but the horse must only go by the rein contact on their neck. The gelding does not like the Classic Equine curb, and so I neck rein in the Jr Cowhorse. Not necessarily more finesse, but easier for him to understand my neck reining cues than with the snaffle, and he likes it better because it focuses on his poll and lips, not his oversized tongue.

That being said I hope you realize I'm perfectly capable of discussing this. And I assure you my horse does not have a crank noseband or anything of the such. Jr Cowhorses are ridden with a western headstall. I ride with a one ear headstall, nothing restricting the gelding's face. No tie down, nothing. And he is relaxed as can be, happily jogging along with his head at his natural position- level with his withers, definitely not caring about the fact that his bit is supposed to be causing him great discomfort.

Also, I'll just tell you right now- I know absolutely nothing about any of those english gags. I am a western rider through and through, and so the idea of even a normal noseband is a little bit out of my knowledge. The most I ever ride with is a browband and throatlatch. No fancy equipment, just my saddle. Or sometimes not even that. hahaha

* OP that actually brings up another factor. Are you direct reining or neck reining in that wonder bit? That bit is for neck reining only. The fact that it is single jointed means the sides can't even work independantly of each other, and if you use both reins they'll nutcracker *


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

beau159 said:


> My regular riding bit for Red is a gag. He goes great in it. Rode my previous horse in this one all the time too. Granted, it doesn't have as much gag as some bits (like the Wonder Bit in question) but it is still a gag.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To my training/ experience, that is *not* a gag bit, it is a curb bit.

The Dutch gag/wonder bit that the OP posted is a leverage bit *not *a gag.

Yo my training a gag bit has the cheek pieces which are rounded, running through the bit rings and the reins are attached to the cheeks, this givies a strong leverage to raise the horses head. 
As a true gag is always a snaffle, a second rein is usually attached to the ring of the bit so the gag rein is only in use occasionally when needed. 

A bit with a curb chain would be exceedingly harsh is used with the running cheek pieces as the reins would be asking for the bit yo go up in the horse's mouth and the curb anchoring it down.


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

There may be a difference in definition between countries, Foxhunter.

I have always been taught that any bit with a sliding mouthpiece is considered a gag. Therefore, Beau's bit, the Jr. Cowhorse, and the Wonder bit are all gags because the mouthpiece will slide on the cheekpiece and produce poll pressure. If beau's bit did not have the sliding portion, it would be merely a curb. Same with my Jr Cowhorse.

This is a gag
Reinsman Circle R Junior Cow Horse Gag, CR343 - Tractor Supply Co.

As is this, because when pressure is exerted on the rein, the cheekpiece will slide, then pull the bit.
Reinsman Circle R Wonder Gag Performance Snaffle, CR307 - Tractor Supply Co.

This is not, because the mouthpiece can rotate but not slide.
Reinsman Circle R Performance Bit, CR752 - Tractor Supply Co.


For that reason, the above two bits are listed as ones that can not be competed in. The third can.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The essence of a gag, from what I've read, is that it reduces the size of the circle made by the bridle & bit, squeezing the poll and mouthpiece together. It does this thru some form of leverage. This has the effect of applying some poll pressure + bringing the mouthpiece further back in the mouth, unlike a curb where the pressure is applied to the bars and there is virtually no poll pressure.

The "Wonder Bit" is thus an elevator/gag bit. As you pull back on the reins, the circle slides around and pulls the bit higher in the mouth (and applies poll pressure). If you use it with a curb strap, it will pull the mouthpiece back into the mouth (gag) until the curb strap tightens and maybe until it runs out of ring to slide along. I haven't used that configuration so I hate to commit to how much it is a gag and how much a curb. The Jr Cow Horse Dogbone had a tiny circle, so it hit the metal stop pretty fast and I think it then acted just like a curb bit since mine had a curb strap attached:










The difference between these two:



















is that the second is balanced for a horse who normally carried its head perpendicular, while the top one is balanced for a horse whose nose is tiled around 40 deg. Both use leverage to bring the mouthpiece further back in the horse's mouth. Both apply poll pressure.

A bit like this:










should raise the mouthpiece slightly, but then act primarily as a curb bit. In Arizona, I usually hear them called gag bits...and a western Tom Thumb is called a snaffle around here because the mouthpiece is broken.

I used the Jr Cow Horse shown above like a snaffle for perhaps 10-15 rides. My horse didn't get upset, but I wanted to try an O-ring snaffle...and then went back to a D-ring as a better fit for how I ride.

The OP might ask about borrowing a bit or two. I can't be the only person with a couple dozen bits sitting in a sack in the garage, never being used...can I? :shock:


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> BMS, looking at those pics you posted, with gag bits, do you see one happy relaxed horse?
> I don't. I see horses with their mouths forced shut by nosebands, but NOT one example of a horse, with a quiet relaxed mouth, on a loose rein, no nose band and no cavasson, and certainly not all that bit pressure
> I rest my case. Gag bits are for horses where, you need 'control', versus using a bit, like a curb for increased finesse (corretcly , of course )


Actually...

Pretty sure he's relaxed and happy. No noseband, no cavesson, relatively loose rein...


For reference, that's the same bit that this filly is wearing (exact same bit, actually)...


Which is a generic version of this bit: Sharon Camarillo Lifesaver Plus Touch Bit - Horse.com Just with a plain sweet iron mouth and a copper lifesaver.


----------



## myhorseisthebest (Dec 4, 2013)

No offense but I think y'all are kinda misjudging exactly HOW I will use a leverage/gag/curb bit.

I ONLY "pull" if my horse is ignoring the seat cues to stop a back. She's a little new to seat cues but is picking it up nicely. Also I mainly do neck reining.

I never have tension in the reins unless my horse walked through a seat stop or back.

What I'm looking to do, I'm pretty sure there is no bit requirement or anything. 

My mare is alsp pretty light/soft in the head and 98% of the time doesn't need a whole lot of me getting in her mouth.

I may not be a super awesome rider but everyone says I have great/light hands.

Just because someone uses a harder bit doesn't mean the horse is unhappy. My friend has a pretty harsh bit but her horse LOVES it and hates any other bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I think the question posed a couple of times that never got answered is a valid one: instead of using the harsher bit, why not just spend the ~$10 to get a slightly bigger version of the bit you have that works well?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## myhorseisthebest (Dec 4, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I think the question posed a couple of times that never got answered is a valid one: instead of using the harsher bit, why not just spend the ~$10 to get a slightly bigger version of the bit you have that works well?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because I wanted to know if it's safe to TRY this bit before spending money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

If you're willing to buy rubber bit guards, and if your bit is smooth mouthed- and your mare is as well trained as she sounds, you can try. Just be aware that the action of the bit is not the same as a lot of other bits, so it should be used accordingly.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Endiku said:


> OP that actually brings up another factor. Are you direct reining or neck reining in that wonder bit? That bit is for neck reining only. The fact that it is single jointed means the sides can't even work independantly of each other, and if you use both reins they'll nutcracker



I do disagree with this. ANY joint has independent sides that is the definition and purpose of a joint. While they can have a nutcracker effect (which illustrates how they work independently) which is the biggest flaw in the design they are definitely not designed solely for neckreining as single joint snaffle are probably THE most common bit in the English world. In fact I would go as far as to say it is far more designed for English then western (neck/loose rein riding). I just feel there is a lot of incorrect information there.

I feel on topic deviations are normal but that the conversation is not on topic..


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Try this bit then you will know a) she likes this bit! get a loose ring snaffle! (or use this depending on how you try it) b) nah let me get her a bigger version of her old one c)hmm maybe I should experiment with some others.

OP I feel this thread is way off topic and most of the posts are not directed at you. You aren't even using this bit at the time correct? Just ignore the irrelevant posts if you want to focus on the topic.

While I know snaffles are used in neck reining she may be happier/easier to communicate with in a curb, just something to keep in mind.

I would recommend using the bit as a snaffle- if you want to use it as a gag and you don't think your horse would mind/is ready go for it. I don't see the point personally. Re bit guards, a good idea but may not be necessary. I wouldn't buy them unless I needed them. Anyways, if using those you need to allow room on the bit which we don't even know if this one has.


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

IMO the thread is still very useful to OP because she is planning to try the gag on her mare. We've been talking about the function of gags, where they're appropriate and not, etc- all of which she should know if she plans to use one. But I'll try to stay on topic. Feel free to not respond to me- I can't have a conversation with myself! hahaha. (Well actually, maybe I can. I'm slightly loony at the moment).

I think my head cold is getting to me and I'm not properly wording things- I did not mean that single jointed *snaffles* are not made for direct reining. Clearly they work just fine for direct contact. I was referring only to the Wonder Bit that OP wants to use. I direct rein in my snaffle all of the time, because like you said- it works just fine with two independent sides.

But when you put a single jointed mouth piece on a curb, or in the case, a leveraged gag, that changes. The nutcracker effect is made even more significant, and you're also adding in extra pressure from different areas like the poll. A dogbone/double jointed curb still isn't great to direct rein in, but you _can_ a little more easily because the middle piece is allowing the sides to work more independently of each other without so much of a nutcracker. I know there are a lot of single joint curbs out there but I feel like they aren't as effective- and to try and direct rein in a solid mouthpieces curb would obviously not work well either, but I'm not even sure the wonderbit comes with that mouthpiece.

Thus I asked if OP's wonderbit is a single jointed bit. Trying to direct rein in a single jointed leverage gag bit is _not_ a good idea because it is going to simultaneously nutcracker, slide and 'gag', produce normal curb leverage, and pull on the mouth. Yes one piece will bend without the other, but the signal will be all over the place. The horse will feel tension in more places than intended, especially if OP were to use both reins and pull back.

edit: I told her she needs the bit guards for sure because gag bits easily can pinch the lips, and OP already told us in the first post that the bit does pinch her horse. No reason to ride without the bit guards already knowing they do pinch.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A single jointed curb or snaffle does not have a nut cracker effect, if used correctly,m, and adjusted correctly.
That is a mis conception by people that adjust that jointed mouth piece too high in the mouth, and ride with way too much rein contact.
If you don't believe me, then take the words of Bob Avila. This is what he says about that single jointed snaffle
'99% pf horses love this bit, and I have won 100 of thousands of dolllars riding with it. When a horse has a training glitch, or is learning something new, that is the bit i go back to
As for a single jointed curb-not all are TT, even though, again, tack catalogs list them as such quite often. A true TT, has fixed shanks that run straight up and down, thus giving zero signal, by the shanks,before that bit engages.
On a horse that is trained correctly , ridden in a curb, whether that mouth piece is jointed or has a port, the horse receives a signal, from the curb strab, before the bit ever engages. That degree of signal depends on shank length, angle of shanks and whether the bit is loose jawed or fixed
The reason a gag bit is a poor choice, is that it does not cue a horse , just by the up take of the reins, so he responds to that signal, never getting a signal in the first place
Drafty, I don't have time to look at which pictures I was referring to, but they are not the ones that you posted


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Drafty, I don't have time to look at which pictures I was referring to, but they are not the ones that you posted


I get that. I was showing that a horse CAN be relaxed and happy in a gag bit without any of the gadgets you listed, that's all. From your post, you made it sound as thought NO horse could be happy in a gag bit and that all horses ridden in a gag bit are also ridden in cavessons, nosebands, etc, to "keep them quiet."


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I ride the other gelding in a single jointed O ring snaffle. Definitely nothing against snaffles! But I think the majority of riders use or adjust their curb wrong, and being that I had no idea what OP's riding skills were like, I assumed she was part of that majority that isn't quite light handed enough to not cause any type of nutcracker affect. I could be wrong though, never claimed to know everything! 


I still agree that the best thing for OP to do is just buy a snaffle for all of $10 and not even bother with the Wonder bit, but I don't use the bit myself so I can't say a ton about it. But if she plans to use it, at least buy the bit guards and educate herself on the function. I have no issue with gags, obviously, considering that I ride in one myself, but still suggest the snaffle as the best option- especially if direct reining, and since the gag action of the Wonder bit is more extreme than in what I ride in.


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Endiku said:


> IMO the thread is still very useful to OP because she is planning to try the gag on her mare. We've been talking about the function of gags, where they're appropriate and not, etc- all of which she should know if she plans to use one. But I'll try to stay on topic. Feel free to not respond to me- I can't have a conversation with myself! hahaha. (Well actually, maybe I can. I'm slightly loony at the moment).
> 
> I think my head cold is getting to me and I'm not properly wording things- I did not mean that single jointed *snaffles* are not made for direct reining. Clearly they work just fine for direct contact. I was referring only to the Wonder Bit that OP wants to use. I direct rein in my snaffle all of the time, because like you said- it works just fine with two independent sides.
> 
> ...


OK that I can completely agree with. I think I have it stuck in my head the OP is trying it as a snaffle though _I_ was the one who suggested it!! lol 

Yes curbs + jointed mouth pieces don't really work in my head.

Regarding the edit with bit guards yes gags/loose rings can pinch and better safe than sorry, BUT it was my understanding that this bit fit the horse well and the OPs usual bit (NOT this one) is too small and pinches hence the OP wanting to try this. So we do not "know" that this bit will pinch the horse and a reason not to use them (no they won't "hurt") is that it may make a well fitting bit too small. You are supposed to add I believe a whole half inch to the size of your bit when planning to ride with bit guards. Personally I would try them without first (obviously if it pinches that doesn't work) since the OP is just trying the bit. That was not directed at you either as many people suggested that. I am all for bit guards just not sure they are necessary in this specific instance, at least atm.


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I re-read that and you're right. LOL. We're all getting confused over here. It's still a 'better safe than sorry' scenario with the Wonder Bit but isn't quite as big of a deal if that isn't the particular bit that she knows pinches. 

Good thing is, they're cheap. So if they're needed, it isn't a big investment.

OP _could_ try the Wonder bit as a snaffle, but I worry that, given that she is supposed to, and will be riding on a loose rein, the rein could get caught under the shank and cause a big problem.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I always wonder why people compromise on bits, as a good bit is a lifetime investment
Just buy a good snaffle.
Jointed mouth curbs work very well, as many very good horsemen use them in their training programs
Read some training series and Bob Avila's series.Bitology.
I have trained numerous horses over the years, starting them in a snaffle or bosal, then, when they are working well , using the indirect rein first, and off of seat and legs, I move them on to a short shanked jointed loose jaw curb bit
After that, depends on the horse and event. Some horses prefer to stay in a jointed mouth curb, so I just move them on to one with longer shanks, as that increases signal time, thus finesse
Some horses like a port, so those get moved on first to a curb with a port and loose shanks. On a horse, like a western pl horse, that you want very even signal across that bit, and once that horse is pretty solid, I will use a curb with a port and fixed shanks
Curb dose not imply port, but rather leverage action , due to the shanks and curb strap, and not the shape of the mouth piece

In fact, a loose jawed, short shanked jointed mouth curb, is an excellent transition bit from a snaffle. I use one and I darn well know many of the best known names in the western performance industry, also do
SA jointed mouth curb, has a mouth piece that the horse is familiar with, from the snaffle, allows you to still pick up that second rein, to help that horse stay correct, as needed, when first moving on to being ridden totally one handed

Although Dana Hokana is referring to a jointed mouth curb as a TT, for simpicity, I will post the link anyway, as it explains as to why that jointed mouth curb is a good transition bit from the snaffle.

Graduating Your Western Horse From Snaffle to Curb Bit


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick:

Yes curbs + jointed mouth pieces don't really work in my head.

Well, as they say, there is always something new to learn., when it comes to training horses!
I have taken clinics from reiners, western pl trainers, cowhorse, ect and a jointed mouth curb is used as an integral part of their training programs


----------



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Yogiwick:
> 
> Yes curbs + jointed mouth pieces don't really work in my head.
> 
> ...


Sure, depending on the use and the training of the horse. That was not meant as a blanket statement.


----------



## myhorseisthebest (Dec 4, 2013)

I can't buy a bit until I sell my saddle that is HUGE on her, after I sell it I'm getting her a bit, breast collar, boots/wraps, a new pad, a rope halter, and possibly a bridle.

The last horse I had was a COMPLETELY a different size, and I also gave her new owner a lot of her tack.

So I just wanna use it (without the shank) until I can get her a bit, I don't like to get just any snaffle, I want a D or O ring with those pinch guard thingies that are part of the bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Using the bit as a snaffle for the time being is fine for now, but you actually need to keep some light contact if you do, so that the reins don't get caught. Been there, done that, NOT a good experience for either of us.

TSC sells O rings for $12 in my area, plus $3.50 for the pinch bit guards


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I can't see a problem using that 'wonder bit' in the same way that a Cheltenham Gag is correctly used - with two reins - so you ride on the snaffle rein unless you need some extra power and then use the 'leverage' rein so the gag effect kicks in
Disregarding the type of torture bits that we can all find if we look - no bit is going to be harsh if used correctly but used incorrectly they mostly all can be
One of our owners hunted in a Western gag because she had brakes with it when he got a bit too strong for her - the horse was perfectly happy in it and ridden in a single jointed snaffle the rest of the time - and she tried just about every bitting option before someone suggested the western bit to her.
Some things just work


----------

