# His tuck is nowhere to be found, but atleast He's got Impusion



## GreyRay

This is Shaffiek, he is 3 years old 15hh(and still growing), he's a Mustang/Arabian/Quarter Horse cross, and yes he IS a stallion(iknow iknow... he's a grade piece of unworthy horse that severally needs gelded bla bla bla)
BUUUTTT I was wondering what you guys thought of his jumping skills. Maybe his long thick legs and slender body can be put to some great use?!(though I will never be able to jump him myself). I know he's young but trust me, I would never push him to his limits, he only jumps as high as he is comfortable with(otherwise I would probably be forcing him over 4ft fences)

I know he need work on his tuck and striding. But if you see anything else feel free to point it out! 
(I couldn't figure out how to embed the videos:-|)










This one if from a front angle


The jumps are all 3ft high, the Jumping Standards are 4ft. Here are a couple pictures(still shots from the video's)


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## MacabreMikolaj

I think you're going to end up with a seriously injured horse if you keep this crap up.

Only as high as he's comfortable with? Maybe you should concentrate on actually training him to lunge properly before CHASING him towards fences that he's popping so badly, I winced everytime he landed on those poor young legs. When a horse WON'T jump unless you're HURTLING him towards it, STOP. There is NO jump in this video that gives even a remote idea of his actual jumping ability - he has no interest in doing this, is looking for any way out possible, and is NOT enjoying himself. He's unbalanced and jumping badly, and should not be going over fences this big until he learns to use himself or he's going to seriously damage his legs.

I won't even touch the gelding issue as it has nothing to do with the video, but I'm sure you can ascertain my opinion of that too anyway.


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## Cinnys Whinny

I"m sorry but I am going to have to agree with everything MacabreMikolaj just said. This horse is not in any condition or form to be jumping so much as a 1 foot jump. You say you would never push him but um...I'm sorry if a horse refuses a jump 2 times until the 3rd you finally get him forced over...then that is pushing him.

Let him finish growing and developing his legs. Get him in condition and muscled up. Teach him to use his body and then maybe you can think about starting poles on the ground.


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## GreyRay

i'm not forcing him... if I was forcing him he wouldnt of been able to refuse(or when he tried he would have jumped from a stand).
as for the "lunging properly" thing, he lunges just fine, I dont know where you are seeing him not lunging properly? He lunges on a single, he works with side reins, hes has had lots of ground work...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj

You can't FORCE a horse to jump anymore then you can FORCE a horse to drink water - you can beat him as much as you like, some will never try. What you are doing IS in as much force as a human can create - he is jumping terribly, and landing in awful awful ways that are blatantly hurting him, and when he tries to tell you that by refusing multiple times, you set him up to "chase" him over the jump.

Free jumping is not about chasing - you don't WANT a horse galloping the fence. You want a proper and controlled lunging circle so the horse can judge his distance and balance himself. If you are CHASING him into a fast canter, you are only setting him up to be severely injured because he has NO balance going into this fence.

He is DRAGGING you around that tiny circle - my biggest indication that neither HIM nor YOU know how to lunge properly. No youngster (or any horse for that matter) should be made to be cantering such a tiny circle, much less being thrown at a fence WAY to big for him.


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## dressagexlee

I have to agree with the others. You may not be forcing him, but you are confusing him with your body language and the general set up of the whole situation.

Lunging over single fences higher than two feet can be dangerous in a circle that small. You're asking him to perform a turn into a jump that he is simply not physically capable of doing - it is better fit for an amateur stadium course. 
The jump is not set up correctly - see how deep he is getting in to it? That's because he can't see how high or far away it is. It has no ground line, or even a second pole to give it any depth. See this post for more detail on how horses see fences.

My suggestion? Free-jumping him (correctly) to assess potential is great. Try setting up a chute (made of poles or even simple flag-tape) with a properly strided and set up grid, and you'll get better results. It allows them to set themselves up with little or no human interference (except for the intial "go on" shooing at the beginning), they can go in a straight line, and grids naturally help horses (and riders) to get a good rhythem and settle into a nice jump.
Here's an example of free-jumping a grid.

And remember - absolutely do not over jump him! Notice that I said to _assess potential_, not to _train_. He's three and he has plenty of growing to do still, and you'll want him to have a long and happy career by remaining nice and sound. ~


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## JumperStride

The first sentence of this thread should tell you he shouldn't be jumping at all. Still growing? Those jumps are a good example of how a horse that doesn't even know how to use his body on the flat properly jumps. No form, no scope, and a rather painful looking landing.


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## kmdstar

YOU need to learn how to lunge a horse before trying to teach a young horse how to lunge. Holy...wow.

"3 years old, still growing" HELLLLLLO why are you jumping this horse?! Do you want him to have arthritis by the time he is ten?

What height did you START him jumping on the lunge? When he SHOULD be learning to jump (in like 2 years...not now) you need to start SMALL first. He clearly doesn't have the confidence or stability to go over jumps that high, notice the hesitation? Or maybe the awful jumping form? - and I'm not insulting your horse, I think he could be a good jumper if he had the right kind of guidance.


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## A knack for horses

When you lunge a horse, you should stay in relatively the same spot, not wandering around the pasture.

I don't know much about jumping, but I can tell that that is not the way you start a horse. When he darts between you and the jump like that, he is trying to tell you something. Just like when a potential roping horse is in the chute, and the cow is released, but the horse just stands there. Sure you can kick and whip and poke and prod that cowhorse all you want to get him to go, but he doesn't enjoy it. He isn't interested in the cow, and you make more work for yourself by trying to make him do it.

You are just creating tons more work for yourself, because the horse doesn't enjoy himself. And also, 3 years old is still considered a baby. He may not be a foal, and should have more patientce and attention span than one, but he still needs time for his body to grow and develop. You are putting too much strain on his developing legs.


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## GreyRay

kmdstar said:


> YOU need to learn how to lunge a horse before trying to teach a young horse how to lunge. Holy...wow.
> 
> "3 years old, still growing" HELLLLLLO why are you jumping this horse?! Do you want him to have arthritis by the time he is ten?
> 
> What height did you START him jumping on the lunge?


ground poles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreyRay

A knack for horses said:


> When you lunge a horse, you should stay in relatively the same spot, not wandering around the pasture.
> 
> I don't know much about jumping, but I can tell that that is not the way you start a horse. When he darts between you and the jump like that, he is trying to tell you something.


That is How I tought him to lunge. When we got him he would just stand there and refuse to move, and we dont have a roundpen. So I had to use the roundpen body language with the lungeline... I guess I just never found it practical to teach him otherwise.(also I find it much easer to keep the line off the standard if im moving with him)

He darted bewteen me and the jump because the line got caught on the standerd. He was confused as to where to go because usually I back up so he has trotting room. That way we can restart our circle and he can correct his striding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreyRay

dressagexlee said:


> I have to agree with the others. You may not be forcing him, but you are confusing him with your body language and the general set up of the whole situation.
> 
> Lunging over single fences higher than two feet can be dangerous in a circle that small. You're asking him to perform a turn into a jump that he is simply not physically capable of doing - it is better fit for an amateur stadium course.
> The jump is not set up correctly - see how deep he is getting in to it? That's because he can't see how high or far away it is. It has no ground line, or even a second pole to give it any depth. See this post for more detail on how horses see fences.
> 
> My suggestion? Free-jumping him (correctly) to assess potential is great. Try setting up a chute (made of poles or even simple flag-tape) with a properly strided and set up grid, and you'll get better results. It allows them to set themselves up with little or no human interference (except for the intial "go on" shooing at the beginning), they can go in a straight line, and grids naturally help horses (and riders) to get a good rhythem and settle into a nice jump.
> Here's an example of free-jumping a grid.
> 
> And remember - absolutely do not over jump him! Notice that I said to _assess potential_, not to _train_. He's three and he has plenty of growing to do still, and you'll want him to have a long and happy career by remaining nice and sound. ~


The circle's Not THAT small. In the area he is being lunged, from one side of the fence accross to the other, is 75 80 feet...

Yes I know the jump needs a socond poll, im working on finding one.

I have never overworked him, just as soon as he starts showing his disinterest in the jump is when he has one more go at it and then he's done for the day. Jumping is only a part of his exercise.

Thnx for the info, i'll work on setting something up like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sphi

Well I don't know anything about training young horses or whatever but I have to say—what a lovely little pony! Very cute, and I love his coloring. Indeed he looks like he needs to snap his knees up more but that's partly due to how close he's taking off from. He'd probably have better form if he took off from further away and had to stretch out. I'd work on a lot of grids and stuff to get him snapping those knees up.


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## payette

If you lean a pole up at an angle against the inside standard it will allow the rope to slide over. I agree with the majority of commenters that he should not be jumped as much/as high until he finishes growing. Stick with poles/cavaletti and teach him to be aware and clever. He is a cutie!!


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## xoSonnyLove1234

GreyRay said:


> The circle's Not THAT small. In the area he is being lunged, from one side of the fence accross to the other, is 75 80 feet...
> 
> Yes I know the jump needs a socond poll, im working on finding one.
> 
> I have never overworked him, just as soon as he starts showing his disinterest in the jump is when he has one more go at it and then he's done for the day. Jumping is only a part of his exercise.
> 
> Thnx for the info, i'll work on setting something up like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Yes the circle is small. It is THAT small. And he shows his disinterest in jumping from the begining. He is VERY uncomfortable and its not good for him to be jumping that height at that young of an age . If you are going to jump him dont do ANYTHING over 1'9 to 2'0 you should be doing lots of ground poles. He shouldnt even be jumping until 5 or 6. Dont rush him.


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## apachiedragon

One thing you WILL accomplish by jumping him high and hard at such a young age is teaching him to hate jumping. He definitely isn't lunging properly, or he would not be leaning on that rope hard enough to pull you around at any time, which he does several times. All he's doing is flying around out of control for most of the video. If he can't control his body on the flat he certainly won't be able to do it in the air. And please put up the wiener dog when you work the horse. In the front angle vid, he nearly got run over.


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## MacabreMikolaj

As a note, the size of the jump doesn't bother me here - this horse is 3 years old, his leg joints are closed, and free jumping of ANY height isn't likely to negatively affect him (think Warmbloods). However, he could be jumping a 1'0" fence and if he's this unbalanced and landing so heavily, I would voice the same opinion.

Quite frankly, at this height, I only want to see a horse FREE jumped anyway - no lunge line. It far better allows them to judge their own distance and focus on the fence instead of a handler or line getting hung up on things. It may be fine for older and experienced horses, but unless I'm doing little crossrails, I always free jump my horses in a ring at around 3-4 years old to let them figure it out themselves.

However, as it's a LEARNING experience, I also never bother going above 2-3 feet depending on the size of the horse. I only want them to use themselves, not be at risk for getting injured or scared because of being overfaced.

This is a photo of me free jumping Zierra for the VERY first time - she had never seen a jump before this day. She is 4 years old here, and we gradually worked up to this height which is 2'9" (the highest she jumped that day). This is what a good first experience should look like - and 11 years later, Zierra still perks her ears up and gets excited when she sees a jump!

CHECKLIST:
* Properly visible jump with a ground line and a cross pole so she can judge her distance
* Properly made chute to guide her easily into the path of the jump
* Proper leg protection for a young horse who may make mistakes
* Being allowed to set her own pace through the chute and decide for herself how to handle 
obstacle.


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## roro

A knack for horses said:


> When you lunge a horse, you should stay in relatively the same spot, not wandering around the pasture.


This isn't directly related, but I disagree with this. It is more engaging for the horse to be moved about when lunging. That way they have to follow you, focus on you in a slightly different place, and have an opportunity to go in straight lines. The key here is that you are the one deciding where to go, the horse shouldn't be dragging you around.


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## dressagexlee

roro said:


> This isn't directly related, but I disagree with this. It is more engaging for the horse to be moved about when lunging. That way they have to follow you, focus on you in a slightly different place, and have an opportunity to go in straight lines. The key here is that you are the one deciding where to go, the horse shouldn't be dragging you around.


Yes. With Otis, I like to make a triangle with his shoulder, hip, and then me facing his barrel. When I line up with his shoulder, he speeds up, and slows down when I line up with his hip. We also go in circles or straight lines around the working area. I can actually make him extend the trot by running beside him down the arena wall. Some people even do through things like simple dressage tests with their horses in spacious arenas. It's really quite awesome, this body language thing.


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## GreyRay

MacabreMikolaj said:


> As a note, the size of the jump doesn't bother me here - this horse is 3 years old, his leg joints are closed, and free jumping of ANY height isn't likely to negatively affect him (think Warmbloods). However, he could be jumping a 1'0" fence and if he's this unbalanced and landing so heavily, I would voice the same opinion.
> 
> Quite frankly, at this height, I only want to see a horse FREE jumped anyway - no lunge line. It far better allows them to judge their own distance and focus on the fence instead of a handler or line getting hung up on things. It may be fine for older and experienced horses, but unless I'm doing little crossrails, I always free jump my horses in a ring at around 3-4 years old to let them figure it out themselves.
> 
> However, as it's a LEARNING experience, I also never bother going above 2-3 feet depending on the size of the horse. I only want them to use themselves, not be at risk for getting injured or scared because of being overfaced.
> 
> This is a photo of me free jumping Zierra for the VERY first time - she had never seen a jump before this day. She is 4 years old here, and we gradually worked up to this height which is 2'9" (the highest she jumped that day). This is what a good first experience should look like - and 11 years later, Zierra still perks her ears up and gets excited when she sees a jump!
> 
> CHECKLIST:
> * Properly visible jump with a ground line and a cross pole so she can judge her distance
> * Properly made chute to guide her easily into the path of the jump
> * Proper leg protection for a young horse who may make mistakes
> * Being allowed to set her own pace through the chute and decide for herself how to handle
> obstacle.


sooo, if i'm reading this right: You want him to do gridwork? why didnt you just say so?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreyRay

dressagexlee said:


> Yes. With Otis, I like to make a triangle with his shoulder, hip, and then me facing his barrel. When I line up with his shoulder, he speeds up, and slows down when I line up with his hip. We also go in circles or straight lines around the working area. I can actually make him extend the trot by running beside him down the arena wall. Some people even do through things like simple dressage tests with their horses in spacious arenas. It's really quite awesome, this body language thing.


thats kinda what I was thinking, too! but everyone is entitled to their own opinion... If they want their horse running circle around them on auto-pilot. Thats fine with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj

GreyRay said:


> sooo, if i'm reading this right: You want him to do gridwork? why didnt you just say so?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, you're not reading this right. Whatsoever. Do you see a grid?


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## GreyRay

MacabreMikolaj said:


> No, you're not reading this right. Whatsoever. Do you see a grid?


You say he's not balanced. People say Gridwork is best for helping a horse find his balance while jumping... Are you saying that gridwork is not what he needs to find balance? that all he needs is a jump with a chute?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon

He's NOT balanced. He needs to find balance through flatwork BEFORE he starts jumping. At all.


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## GreyRay

apachiedragon said:


> He's NOT balanced. He needs to find balance through flatwork BEFORE he starts jumping. At all.


He has has a year and a half of flatwork. If he's not balanced yet then he is hopeless.(though considering some of the amazing footwork he does on his free time. I think he knows how to handle himself)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj

^

Then maybe he needs to have flat work done with somebody who knows what they're doing? :-|


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## GreyRay

MacabreMikolaj said:


> ^
> 
> Then maybe he needs to have flat work done with somebody who knows what they're doing? :-|


Just as soon as you find someone close let me know 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A knack for horses

roro said:


> This isn't directly related, but I disagree with this. It is more engaging for the horse to be moved about when lunging. That way they have to follow you, focus on you in a slightly different place, and have an opportunity to go in straight lines. The key here is that you are the one deciding where to go, the horse shouldn't be dragging you around.


I do 2 types of lounging. 1) Exersize/training lounging 2) Lounging for respect (preride check)
For 1, I put the horse on a real lounge line, and like to stay in the same spot facing the horses barrel and keeping the pressure pointed behind their hindquarters. By relaitvely same spot, I mean a 3 foot radius from the center of the circle. 
For 2, I just leave the horse on a lead rope and do more of what you are saying, I do much more moving with the circle when I do this. I lounge them in the same stance as lounge 1, but we only walk and trot, as to make sure the horse is calm, responsive, and focusing on me.

As she was doing training lounging, I said what I do for that type of lounging. I do agree with you about moving, I believe it is good to test and help a horse hone in on what he is doing and focus, but I don't like doing it on the long lounge line.


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## horseluver2435

Except it's not *her* responsibility. You're not doing him any good if you can't train him. If he's yours, then it's up to you as his owner to do what's best for him.


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## MacabreMikolaj

The problem is not necessarily that he's not balanced in general. The problem is that he's SO concerned about looking at you and hauling as hard as he can on that line, he's not even seeing the jump until a couple strides out and has NO ability to prepare himself.

He needs to be free jumped, off a lunge, period until he figures out what he's doing. If you can't do that, stop jumping him.


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## equiniphile

My honest opinion? He should NOT be jumping those fences at that age. I won't start a horse over jumps until they're 5 or 6 years old, and even then I start slow and work them up until they're confident using their body to balance themselves and have good form over the fences. You want to know why he doesn't tuck? He's not jumping out of enjoyment, he's not trying to find a way to be able to be more efficient over jumps, he's just trying to get over them before you come at him and force him to canter around in 10-ft circles as punishment for him trying to tell you that he's hurting and is not enjoying himself


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## Tennessee

Dang. You know what's bad? 

I have never done jumping in my entire life, but I can tell that that horse is EXTREMELY uncomfortable doing what you are forcing him to do.


Poor guy. And so young...


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## ChristineNJ

Wow, that poor little horse! He has no time to even pace himself for the jump! He's too young and very uncomfortable with your way of doing things! And when you yell Yaaaaa at the end of a jump that probably scares him even more!! Poor guy! Please get some help to train him properly!!!!! It is obvious you don't know what you are doing!


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## Gidji

I think its best I don't say the truth here so I'll just say I love grey horses :|

****, I'm sick of Craigslist crazies.


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## GreyRay

equiniphile said:


> My honest opinion? He should NOT be jumping those fences at that age. I won't start a horse over jumps until they're 5 or 6 years old, and even then I start slow and work them up until they're confident using their body to balance themselves and have good form over the fences. You want to know why he doesn't tuck? He's not jumping out of enjoyment, he's not trying to find a way to be able to be more efficient over jumps, he's just trying to get over them before you come at him and force him to canter around in 10-ft circles as punishment for him trying to tell you that he's hurting and is not enjoying himself


10ft... LOL!!! talk about a drama queen. The Line is longer than 10ft(fush, our LEAD ropes are longer than 10ft) and the Circle *I* am walking is bigger than 10ft(that = MORE than 30ft).

Its pretty obvious that you people like to make up and dramatize the situation.

As for the "he hates it, he not getting ANY enjoyment out of it"...
Question: How do you train an animal?

Answer: By minipulating their environment!

Horses in the wild travel(work) to find food. They do not "enjoy" traveling to find food, it is dangerous and they would much rather stand around and eat. But they do it so they can live, survival.

Horses in captivity work(travel) so at the end of the day they get fed. They(just like in the wild) associate work(travel) with food. They dont "enjoy" jumping fences or chasing cows, its dangerous, but they do it. Because they know that when its over, they get food, Survival.

It's silly and amotional to think that any horse "likes" to work for a human being. They would much rather stand around and eat. But they do it for survival.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kmdstar

GreyRay said:


> 10ft... LOL!!! talk about a drama queen. The Line is longer than 10ft(fush, our LEAD ropes are longer than 10ft) and the Circle *I* am walking is bigger than 10ft(that = MORE than 30ft).
> 
> Its pretty obvious that you people like to make up and dramatize the situation.
> 
> As for the "he hates it, he not getting ANY enjoyment out of it"...
> Question: How do you train an animal?
> 
> Answer: By minipulating their environment!
> 
> Horses in the wild travel(work) to find food. They do not "enjoy" traveling to find food, it is dangerous and they would much rather stand around and eat. But they do it so they can live, survival.
> 
> Horses in captivity work(travel) so at the end of the day they get fed. They(just like in the wild) associate work(travel) with food. They dont "enjoy" jumping fences or chasing cows, its dangerous, but they do it. Because they know that when its over, they get food, Survival.
> 
> It's silly and amotional to think that any horse "likes" to work for a human being. They would much rather stand around and eat. But they do it for survival.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
LOL!! Maybe you should take more time to study horses, in wild AND in captivity because you don't sound like you have an idea about them.

It certainly is NOT silly to think that some horses LIKE to work for a human...my horse LOVES to work. LOVES it. She gets ****y when she doesn't work for a while. If you have a horse with a good attitude and give it a good exercise program it can ENJOY, they SHOULD like working.

Maybe you should try listening to people, because this horse is too young to be worked that hard and that...wrong. You're going to screw him up horribly if you keep this up, but I just have a little feeling that you don't care at all. Poor horse. :-(


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## maura

GreyRey, 

I am going to pretend that I am the first person to post in this thread, and am not going to respond to some of the previous back and forth as it got heated and personal.

First of all, your horse is cute and attractive and a decent athlete and will probably make a nice riding horse IF you're careful about handling him appropriately. I hope you're planning on gelding him soon. 

In the video he doesn't appear to have a lot of natural jumping ability, but that could be because you're not setting him up for success. 

The three most glaring things I see are - 

- No ground line or filler for the jump. Makes it impossible for him to judge his distance with any degree of accuracy.
- Unprotected jump standard. When the lunge line catches on the jump standard and yanks him up short, that's a serious mixed training message.
- The footing. I wouldn't jump any horse, but particularly not a young horse on that footing. If I didn't have better footing anywhere at my facility, I just wouldn't jump the horse. 

Also things to notice/things to be concerned about -
- he's going downhill before he gets to the fence. The combo of running/rushing, no ground line, no filler and going downhill pretty much guarantees that he'll be on his front end and not be able to fold. 
- a single, big fence doesn't teach the horse much except how to live to see dinner. Do some research about constructing grids and get him working through small fences with ground lines and placement rails if you're serious about teaching him to jump. 

The best thing I see about this video is your horse's good attitude and willingness. You don't want to lose that. Slow down and approach this a little more thoughtfully; with a horse that's trying his heart out for you you are much more likely to suceed. 


-


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## GreyRay

kmdstar said:


> LOL!! Maybe you should take more time to study horses, in wild AND in captivity because you don't sound like you have an idea about them.
> 
> It certainly is NOT silly to think that some horses LIKE to work for a human...my horse LOVES to work. LOVES it. She gets ****y when she doesn't work for a while. If you have a horse with a good attitude and give it a good exercise program it can ENJOY, they SHOULD like working.
> 
> Maybe you should try listening to people, because this horse is too young to be worked that hard and that...wrong. You're going to screw him up horribly if you keep this up, but I just have a little feeling that you don't care at all. Poor horse. :-(


Exactly, he "enjoys" working because he then gets fed. And to tell you the truth, its very rare that you find people who listen to whiny little brat children... very rare. Maybe insted of spending so much time playing on the computer. You should practice more on using your words in a productive manner so that you might POSSABLY have a future. Yep, badass little chidlren behind a screen for sure!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura

Namecalling and personal attacks are not acceptable on this forum, GreyRay. 

I understand some other posters may have provoked you, but YOU have crossed the line. 

I have asked moderators to step in on this thread.


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## GreyRay

maura said:


> Namecalling and personal attacks are not acceptable on this forum, GreyRay.
> 
> I understand some other posters may have provoked you, but YOU have crossed the line.
> 
> I have asked moderators to step in on this thread.


"I have the feeling you don't care at all" somehow this is not a personal attack? GOOD maybe if there are two people complaining they might do something?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gypsygirl

2 wrongs dont make a right...just saying.

maura you gave great advice ! =]


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## kmdstar

GreyRay said:


> Exactly, he "enjoys" working because he then gets fed. And to tell you the truth, its very rare that you find people who listen to whiny little brat children... very rare. Maybe insted of spending so much time playing on the computer. You should practice more on using your words in a productive manner so that you might POSSABLY have a future. Yep, badass little chidlren behind a screen for sure!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The only child here is you, because we're trying to give you advice to not ruin this horse and all you do is try to prove we're wrong and you're right.



GreyRay said:


> "I have the feeling you don't care at all" somehow this is not a personal attack? GOOD maybe if there are two people complaining they might do something?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It wasn't meant to be a personal attack, it seems to be a fact. If you cared you would listen to advice, but hey you know best, we're all wrong. :roll:


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## equiniphile

GreyRay said:


> Question: How do you train an animal?
> 
> Answer: By minipulating their environment!
> 
> Horses in the wild travel(work) to find food. They do not "enjoy" traveling to find food, it is dangerous and they would much rather stand around and eat. But they do it so they can live, survival.
> 
> Horses in captivity work(travel) so at the end of the day they get fed. They(just like in the wild) associate work(travel) with food. They dont "enjoy" jumping fences or chasing cows, its dangerous, but they do it. Because they know that when its over, they get food, Survival.
> 
> It's silly and amotional to think that any horse "likes" to work for a human being. They would much rather stand around and eat. But they do it for survival.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First of all, the 10ft was meant as an exaggeration, the same as saying "you're just running him around in circles and making him jump against his will a million times!".

Second, all my horses love working. They see their bridle, or halter, and they're pacing their stall, ears up, shoving their head in it because they enjoy getting out and going for a trail ride. They enjoy it. Arthur, my 22yr old, gets depressed if I don't ride him for a week. My miniature horse loves jumping. I put a jump in the pasture and run towards it, and she will follow me at a canter, racing towards the jump. She loves jumping. Same with my thoroughbred mare. Before we found out she had a slab fracture on the track and surgery, I lunged her (correctly) over 18 in. jumps and she perked her ears forward, paced herself, and ran around trying to get to the jump again. Don't tell me for a second horses don't like to work with and around humans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreyRay

equiniphile said:


> First of all, the 10ft was meant as an *exaggeration*, the same as saying "you're just running him around in circles and making him jump against his will a million times!".
> 
> Second, all my horses love working. They see their *bridle, or halter*, and they're pacing their *stall*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"exaggeration" "dramatization" whats the difference?

Stalls: minipulation of the environment.

Halter/Bridle: means work which = dinner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kmdstar

GreyRay said:


> "exaggeration" "dramatization" whats the difference?
> 
> Stalls: minipulation of the environment.
> 
> Halter/Bridle: means work which = dinner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Horses don't see work as equaling food. When people train with treats, they need to give the treat RIGHT after the horse does what it's asked. When you get a horse from it's pasture, work it, untack it and then feed it - it does NOT see work = food. You haven't given the food in time for the horse to assosciate it with working.


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## GreyRay

kmdstar said:


> The only child here is you, because we're trying to give you advice to not ruin this horse and all you do is try to prove we're wrong and you're right.
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't meant to be a personal attack, it seems to be a fact. If you cared you would listen to advice, but hey you know best, we're all wrong. :roll:


Last time I checked there was a difference between giving advice(using your words in a proper productive manner), and being rude(stating false facts, name calling, and harrassing).

Last time I checked there were only 2 posts that were actually helpful, and I pointed them out with a quote.

Your obviously seeing things, because I never said anything(related to this topic) about "I'm right and your wrong"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreyRay

kmdstar said:


> Horses don't see work as equaling food. When people train with treats, they need to give the treat RIGHT after the horse does what it's asked. When you get a horse from it's pasture, work it, untack it and then feed it - it does NOT see work = food. You haven't given the food in time for the horse to assosciate it with working.


You clearly don't understand! if you are giving a horse food from your hand, it sees people as a food tub(a place) nothing more, nothing less. Horses in the wild do not get "treated" every step they take while they are moving to freasher grazing grounds. They only get the food when hey have ARRIVED(the work has been finished).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon

And what about when you feed them first, and then work them? My horses can't associate work with food if they work after eating. I had a mare that would go into such a depression she would stop eating if she wasn't working. This was the same mare that would happily lunge over a jump on a 10 ft line with me holding it with two fingers and she never even took the slack out of the rope. She was collected, balanced and knew how to use herself, therefore jumped properly. She was also never asked to lunge over a fence higher than 2' on a rope, though she could easily jump 4' with a rider, because to expect her to jump higher on a line would have interfered with her ability to use herself properly.


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## GreyRay

apachiedragon said:


> And what about when you feed them first, and then work them? My horses can't associate work with food if they work after eating. I had a mare that would go into such a depression she would stop eating if she wasn't working. This was the same mare that would happily lunge over a jump on a 10 ft line with me holding it with two fingers and she never even took the slack out of the rope. She was collected, balanced and knew how to use herself, therefore jumped properly. She was also never asked to lunge over a fence higher than 2' on a rope, though she could easily jump 4' with a rider, because to expect her to jump higher on a line would have interfered with her ability to use herself properly.


......? they ARE in the Video section!...? unless one of the Mods moved it which I HIGHLY doubt seeing that they arent even being helpfull.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon

I do apologize for that mistake GreyRay, that's why I edited it out. I just think what we're all trying to say is that he needs more foundation work before he starts jumping. And then Cavellettis, gridwork over SMALL (18" to 2' max) jumps, and at a regulated pace, not a flat out running trot. I don't doubt that once he's older and has more control of himself that he has the ability to be a nice little jumper, it's just too soon.


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## Mike_User

GreyRay said:


> "I have the feeling you don't care at all" somehow this is not a personal attack? GOOD maybe if there are two people complaining they might do something?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





GreyRay said:


> ......? they ARE in the Video section!...? unless one of the Mods moved it which I HIGHLY doubt seeing that they arent even being helpfull.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Today is a Sunday and it's the 4th of July, which is a holiday in the United States where many moderators are from. Members of the Horse Forum Team can't be here around the clock, especially on holidays.

I have very limited time today myself, so I am going to check this thread later and if I find it has degraded further with more name calling or personal attacks it will be closed.

Please, everyone, try to remain respectful of one another even when discussing your disagreements.


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## wild_spot

I just want to weigh into the debate about work = feed.

I don't feed my horses. They are good doers and are fat as mud on pasture and a mineral lick. 

So there is no possible way they can associate work with food - I also don't use treats in my training. Yet they are happy to work. They come running when they are called.


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## A knack for horses

wild_spot said:


> I just want to weigh into the debate about work = feed.
> 
> I don't feed my horses. They are good doers and are fat as mud on pasture and a mineral lick.
> 
> So there is no possible way they can associate work with food - I also don't use treats in my training. Yet they are happy to work. They come running when they are called.


The reason horses are happy to work for us is because we are a part of their herd. Simple as that. Yes they like food, but that isn't why they like to work. 
All humans are to (domesticated) horses are members of their herd. Horses bond closely with the members of the herd, and like to spend time with their herd mates. 
That is why when you work a new horse, they may not be as willing as they are with their owner or primary caregiver. I have had a few horses I work with try and run me over to get to their "dad" (I don't let them though), because they don't hold the same bond with me as with their owner. Sure they do as they are told with me without complaint, but I am not a full member of their herd, thus they aren't exactly jumping through fire to please me.


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## smrobs

I have to agree with the other posters. He is a cute little horse and with the proper training and management, he will make a wonderful mount someday. However, I personally don't agree with jumping such a young horse over jumps so high. He has not had enough basic training and preparation to be balanced and controlled over the jumps. He cannot get his own spacing because he is more concerned with trying to figure a way to run out of the circle that you have him in (evident by the nose tipped to the outside, ears looking everywhere except you, pulling on the line, and switching his leads around). He is not controlled or confident enough on the flat to even be looking at something more than a groundpole at this point. The fact that he refused has nothing to do with whether or not the line got caught on the standard or not, you can see the reluctance the instant that he actually looks at the jump, which is often only 1 stride before he gets to it.

As for the rest of the thread, I may not be a moderator, but I have been a member here for a while. Getting heated and defensive and resorting to calling people 'whiny little brat children' is completely inappropriate and speaks volumes about your own attitude. If you are not mature enough to accept that you might be wrong and need some more experienced guidance, then it is not this community's fault. A mature person can gracefully accept critique (even not so nice critique), regardless of whether they think they are right or not.


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## MacabreMikolaj

^

Agreed. My horse will leave her pasture to come greet me at the gate for heavy periods of work and wasn't fed grain for 5 years. She doesn't associate me with food whatsoever, she associates me with good company and enjoyment. She finds a form of pleasure from interacting with me socially, or she'd never walk from her herd and food to come work instead.


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## ChristineNJ

Agree SMRobs. Hopefully she will stop trying to defend her position and listen to the more experienced riders/horse owners in this community. Very good advice given here!!


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## Spyder

smrobs said:


> However, I personally don't agree with jumping such a young horse over jumps so high. .



I am glad this thread was re opened.

I have no problem with the age of the horse nor the height of the jump

*BUT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

I do have a problem with the ground this was done on, the equipment used and NOT USED, and the manner it was done.

Go to Europe any day and you will see horses this young being trained for the sale and assessment of stallions held each year. It covers 60 days (some 120) and they must jump higher than this. So the age is, in my world not a biggie.

*BUT !!*

Again another but... the horses are jumped in a safe manner (free jumped via a chute) or with a baseline with the jump to ensure success and it is on even ground and *THEY HAVE PROTECTION ON THEIR LEGS.*


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## MacabreMikolaj

^

THIS! Joints are closed by 2.5 - 3 years old, and even so, horses are much rougher on themselves in the pasture with jumping and bucking. The issue with joint and back problems comes from adding a rider - I really don't think you can harm a horse by free jumping him a few times at 2-3 years old.

However, jumping a horse in the manner the OP is of ANY age is asking for injury and problems. I couldn't care if the horse was 3 or 13 - it's the manner and the lack of proper setup that's the problem.


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## GreyRay

Information I have gathered thus far:

"He is too young to jump"

"He is plenty old enough to jump"

"The jump needs three polls"

"the jump needs two polls"

"he needs protective leg boots"

"horse boots cause more damage then prevent"

"he shouldnt be jumping at all, hes not even balanced on the ground"

"hes just not balanced while jumping"

"to get him balanced while jumping he needs to jump off line a single jump with a chute"

"gridwork is best for teaching a horse balance while jumping"

"gridwork is not what he needs. He needs ground work with someone who can ACTUALLY do it before he even sees a jump"

"it is my responsibility as his owner to find a none existent competent trainer "

"the ground is too hard"(completely true)

"he is lunging incorrectly"

"he is lunging correctly, its just a different way of lunging with body language"


lets see if I can think of more. But for now this post is more like a Poll rather than actually helpful. Everyone here is "my way or the highway". Very few have given helpful advice. Most are simply stating that I need to do it THEIR way, which are all completely conflicting. So in the end i'm left where I started.

The only thing helpful I got out of this(the ones that made the most sense and I agree with) is that he needs gridwork, off line, we need more polls(which im finding), And we have crappy dirt! I dont have one single problem accepting blunt honesty. But when the "advisers" purposly sound, and come accross as, whiny little children, I find it rather difficult to take them seriously. And would much rather give them a good text book on how to appropriately phrase their sentances. Apparently I am the only person here who has read the first forum rule plastered on the front page.(Or maybe better said. I am the only person the rule is being inforced on)... And to top it off, the fact that the Forum POSTERS are incapable of deleting their own forum is completely inconveniant, and cluttering.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder

GreyRay said:


> IBut when the "advisers" purposly sound, and come accross as, whiny little children, I find it rather difficult to take them seriously.


Oh goodie...I lost 50 years...





> And would much rather give them a good text book on how to appropriately phrase their sentances.


Really..I could give you a good book on proper horse care and handling but at your advanced age you may have trouble reading it. 



> Apparently I am the only person here who has read the first forum rule plastered on the front page.(Or maybe better said. I am the only person the rule is being inforced on).


First it is ENforced...taken from all the book learning I have done in my advanced but now only few years of living/learning.

Second the mods apply that rule to everyone equally and it seems they have so far been generous with you.



> .. And to top it off, the fact that the Forum POSTERS are incapable of deleting their own forum is completely inconveniant, and cluttering.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No idea what you mean here. There is an edit/delete feature that allows this only within the first 10 minutes after which only mods can delete anything.


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## myhorsesonador

Ok here is just my 2 cents. 

*ground is 2 hard.

*free jumping is way beter.

*he is off balance because of his age. He is still growing and he has to get used to his body.

*there is meny diffrent oppinions on how to lunge on line I personaly think it depends on the horse.

*please get some boots for his legs. Saying they do more harm than good is just a mith. people have been using them for years and I've never hurd of a horse becoming dependent on them.

I hope this helps.


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## kmdstar

myhorsesonador said:


> *please get some boots for his legs. Saying they do more harm than good is just a mith. people have been using them for years and I've never hurd of a horse becoming dependent on them.


They only protect and don't harm when they are put on correct, if you don't know how, don't bother because that is when you might do more harm than good putting them on too tight.


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## smrobs

Wow, you seem to be getting a lot of conflicting opinions that none of the rest of us can see. I don't recall seeing any kind of debate on leg protection in this thread, nor did I see anyone say that he is lunging correctly. The general concensus that I got through the whole thread is that he is not balanced on the lunge line and if you insist on jumping him, then he needs to be at liberty and be allowed to freejump without the confusion of the lunge line. Regardless of the conflicting opinions on what you need to be doing, everyone who posted mentioned that the horse is not comfortable doing what you are asking him to do. Which begs the question why he isn't comfortable. Anyone who knows anything about reading the body language of a horse can tell that he badly wants to get away from you on the lunge line. That makes me wonder why.


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## GreyRay

Spyder said:


> Oh goodie...I lost 50 years...
> 
> 
> 
> Really..I could give you a good book on proper horse care and handling but at your advanced age you may have trouble reading it.
> 
> First it is ENforced...taken from all the book learning I have done in my advanced but now only few years of living/learning.
> 
> Second the mods apply that rule to everyone equally and it seems they have so far been generous with you.
> 
> No idea what you mean here. There is an edit/delete feature that allows this only within the first 10 minutes after which only mods can delete anything.


wow... you really like to apply yourself to things.

Interesting, because I have read many and they are all just as conflicting as the answers I have gotten here.

Sorry, it's called a typo, not everyone is as perfect as the 1000yo roman god you are(maybe I could have fixed it if the Edit/Delete feature lasted long enough)

Ohhh, I get it. Everyone = only newer people. 'Cause so far I had 4 pages of rule breaking posts(that were reported) before I finally desided that if I Cant Beat 'em Join 'em(since nothing was being done anyway)

Who knows... maybe the forum topic MIGHT actually get deleted(like I have asked it to be several times now). Just like the Admin said before "reopening", I got what I wanted and there is really no reason for this forum to be cluttering things. And "degrading".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreyRay

myhorsesonador said:


> Ok here is just my 2 cents.
> 
> *ground is 2 hard.
> 
> *free jumping is way beter.
> 
> *he is off balance because of his age. He is still growing and he has to get used to his body.
> 
> *there is meny diffrent oppinions on how to lunge on line I personaly think it depends on the horse.
> 
> *please get some boots for his legs. Saying they do more harm than good is just a mith. people have been using them for years and I've never hurd of a horse becoming dependent on them.
> 
> I hope this helps.


Thanks  that is pretty much the conclusion I have come to at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GreyRay

smrobs said:


> Wow, you seem to be getting a lot of conflicting opinions that none of the rest of us can see. I don't recall seeing any kind of debate on leg protection in this thread, nor did I see anyone say that he is lunging correctly. The general concensus that I got through the whole thread is that he is not balanced on the lunge line and if you insist on jumping him, then he needs to be at liberty and be allowed to freejump without the confusion of the lunge line. Regardless of the conflicting opinions on what you need to be doing, everyone who posted mentioned that the horse is not comfortable doing what you are asking him to do. Which begs the question why he isn't comfortable. Anyone who knows anything about reading the body language of a horse can tell that he badly wants to get away from you on the lunge line. That makes me wonder why.


Oh... I dono, maybe because he was trained to keep the line tight(like most every other horse I have ever meet). If you watch, you will see him happily prance up to me when he is done, awaiting his feed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gidji

GreyRay, first of all I want to agree that this is getting a bit out of hand. But by posting on a public forum, you're going to get mixed opinions. Everyone here comes from different backgrounds, different disciplines so of course nothing's going to be the same. So attacking the forum as a whole just because we all give different opinions makes no sense and makes you come off as a Craigslist Crazy.

Now, the problems I see with his lunging although he is a nice horse, is that he is being lunged incorrectly and unsafely over that jump. Boots should be used on him, as for every horse who jumps, however they need to be put on correctly as they can do harm if not done right. The footing is unsafe, and because he is unbalanced, it doesn't make it any easier for him to jump it. I personally, think you are lunging incorrectly, but thats just my opinion.


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## Spyder

GreyRay said:


> Sorry, it's called a typo, not everyone is as perfect as the 1000yo roman god you are(maybe I could have fixed it if the Edit/Delete feature lasted long enough)



I hate Roman Gods..they are just not as nice as the Greek ones. 

As far as the edit feature...it ensures that everyone owns the post they make and are responsible for it.



GreyRay said:


> Oh... I dono, maybe because he was trained to keep the line tight(like most every other horse I have ever meet). If you watch, you will see him happily prance up to me when he is done, awaiting his feed.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess we better not even mention how lunging should be performed, we might be accused of being a Norse god then.


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## dressagexlee

Spyder said:


> I guess we better not even mention how lunging should be performed, we might be accused of being a Norse god then.


Viking SMASH!

...Sorry.


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## My Beau

If you don't like how the forum is run (edit features and moderating) you could always... leave? Instead of starting fights with other (very experienced) posters when you can't handle criticism, which generally makes things around here worse for the rest of us :/


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## Spyder

dressagexlee said:


> Viking SMASH!
> 
> ...Sorry.



LOL..I was trying to inject some humor as it seems this is the only way to go now.


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## wild_spot

This thread has gone south - Time to close it.

GreyRay, the forum is run as it is for very good reasons, and generally it works very well. If you have issues with anything, please PM a mod or start a topic in the Pow Wow section and we will discuss your ideas. 

However, by the same token, we have a great community here, and we are not going to change the way the forum is run on the whim of one member if the community at large is enjoying how the forum operates.


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