# Bay or BAB?



## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

So my new mare is registered as bay and all this summer she has stayed a very consistent color of bay. But now suddenly this winter she's sprouting cinnamon/mealy points that seem to be associated with brown. So enlighten me color experts, is she bay or brown? I am beginning to suspect brown.
The first two are this summer. The others are from yesterday.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm gonna say BAB. My best friend's QH mare is the exact same way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I vote bay.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

she looks like a seal bay to me.


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## turnandburn1 (Nov 21, 2014)

My bay does this when she gets her winter fur, so I vote bay.


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

SarahStorms said:


> she looks like a seal bay to me.


I was under the impression that seal bay is just another term for brown. :? Is there a difference?


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## GOLDnDIAMONDS (Dec 30, 2014)

I would say bay as well. My girl is bright bay with no white except a star/snip on her face in the summer, but gets a dorsal stripe down her back and white on the back of her legs and her under belly in the winter. Her muzzle and eyes fade out too. And yes she's registered bay. However one day maybe I will get her color tested as her sire is a fun and she has very light roaning year round in her mane and tail. 

She's just a weirdo I guess. I'd post photos, but am still learning how to navigate everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm thinking brown as well.



LittleBayMare said:


> I was under the impression that seal bay is just another term for brown. :? Is there a difference?


I consider the terms interchangeable. The researchers who isolated the gene dubbed it 'seal brown' but it usually gets shortened to just 'brown' (which I think is confusing for a lot of people). Seal bay is a term that has been around for a long time to describe very dark bays, which more often than not tend to actually be genetically seal brown.


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

verona1016 said:


> I'm thinking brown as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I consider the terms interchangeable. The researchers who isolated the gene dubbed it 'seal brown' but it usually gets shortened to just 'brown' (which I think is confusing for a lot of people). Seal bay is a term that has been around for a long time to describe very dark bays, which more often than not tend to actually be genetically seal brown.


Ah. Thank you for the explanation.

I was hoping the vote would swing one way or the other, but it looks like three are saying bay and two are saying brown. :-| I guess I'll just stick with calling her bay for now because that's what her papers say, unless I can get the money to color test her at some point because I am really curious, though it really makes no difference to me which one it is. It just bothers me not knowing for sure. Little drama queen just can't make thing easy on me can she? :lol:


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

I vote brown as well.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

I would also say brown. Many "bays" are actually mislabeled because they fit within what a bay is considered to be. A true bay will not get lighter cinnamon colors by the nose and flank in a winter coat. Bay and brown are just different mutations of agouti, and behave somewhat similarly with a few differences. Many brown horses are registered as bay because they look bay as a foal when most are registered. How many learned horse colors years back or from someone else who learned horse colors years back when a bay was a red colored body with black legs, mane, tail, muzzle and tips of ears while a brown was a horse that appeared solid black except for cinnamon coloring by the nose and flank? We have advanced in our knowledge of horse colors and genetics since then but it is a long process to reeducate those who already learned the old definitions of horse colors. Just go through the BAB thread and see how many of those horses look bay in summer coats and then get the cinnamon color around the nose and flank in the summer.


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

SunnyDraco said:


> I would also say brown. Many "bays" are actually mislabeled because they fit within what a bay is considered to be. A true bay will not get lighter cinnamon colors by the nose and flank in a winter coat. Bay and brown are just different mutations of agouti, and behave somewhat similarly with a few differences. Many brown horses are registered as bay because they look bay as a foal when most are registered. How many learned horse colors years back or from someone else who learned horse colors years back when a bay was a red colored body with black legs, mane, tail, muzzle and tips of ears while a brown was a horse that appeared solid black except for cinnamon coloring by the nose and flank? We have advanced in our knowledge of horse colors and genetics since then but it is a long process to reeducate those who already learned the old definitions of horse colors. Just go through the BAB thread and see how many of those horses look bay in summer coats and then get the cinnamon color around the nose and flank in the summer.


Actually reading the BAB thread is what made me question her color to begin with. Lol.
My only confusion there was the way her coat stays consistent. It _only_ changed shade once the winter coat came in and even then, only a slight variation in overall color and the addition of obvious cinnamon points. I was under the impression that brown coats tend to vary more with the season. So the cinnamon points would suggest brown, but the lack a variation in coat color would, to my untrained eye, suggest bay, hence why I came to the experts.  But I guess it just may be a case of a weird brown. Like I said, she's got drama queen in her DNA so she's not going to give up her secrets easily.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

LittleBayMare said:


> Actually reading the BAB thread is what made me question her color to begin with. Lol.
> My only confusion there was the way her coat stays consistent. It _only_ changed shade once the winter coat came in and even then, only a slight variation in overall color and the addition of obvious cinnamon points. I was under the impression that brown coats tend to vary more with the season. So the cinnamon points would suggest brown, but the lack a variation in coat color would, to my untrained eye, suggest bay, hence why I came to the experts.  But I guess it just may be a case of a weird brown. Like I said, she's got drama queen in her DNA so she's not going to give up her secrets easily.


Brown is the great disguiser, it can vary from each horse. One may be so well disguised that they look bay all year long except in a winter coat. Winter coats are when a brown disguised as a bay loses their disguise. While another brown may change color throughout the seasons or be solid black other than the cinnamon soft spots.


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## turnandburn1 (Nov 21, 2014)

SunnyDraco said:


> Brown is the great disguiser, it can vary from each horse. One may be so well disguised that they look bay all year long except in a winter coat. Winter coats are when a brown disguised as a bay loses their disguise. While another brown may change color throughout the seasons or be solid black other than the cinnamon soft spots.


Could this mean that my "bay" could actually be a brown that is disguised as bay?


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## turnandburn1 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have never heard of this is why I'm asking. I've always been taught bays are bays. I can't find anything on it either.


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

SunnyDraco said:


> Brown is the great disguiser, it can vary from each horse. One may be so well disguised that they look bay all year long except in a winter coat. Winter coats are when a brown disguised as a bay loses their disguise. While another brown may change color throughout the seasons or be solid black other than the cinnamon soft spots.


Well then it looks like Mis Jet is busted! :twisted: Sneaky little devil.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

turnandburn1 said:


> Could this mean that my "bay" could actually be a brown that is disguised as bay?


Do you have a pic from summer and winter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnandburn1 (Nov 21, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Do you have a pic from summer and winter?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a 1 year old. I don't have pics of her face in summer but it doesn't have the lighter points like that. Her mom is the same.
I'll see if this works:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Based on that pic alone, I wouldn't hesitate to call her brown.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnandburn1 (Nov 21, 2014)

Btw she has the usual black bay points and mane and tail.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

turnandburn1 said:


> Btw she has the usual black bay points and mane and tail.


Browns will have those. 

Brown and bay are both versions of the agouti gene. Bay restricts the expression of non-red (black) pigment to the hard points of the body: the mane, tail, legs, ears and muzzle. Brown restricts the expression of non-red (black) further by lightening the soft points of the horse: the muzzle, flank, under the elbow and the point of the buttocks. There is a third type of agouti called wild bay which restricts the non-red (black) even further.

This is why horses that are genetically brown are often mislabeled (and mis-registered) as bay. 

Perfect example: The one on the right is a holsteiner and registered as bay. The one on the left is a NSH/Arab cross and is registered as bay. Only the horse on the left is actually a bay.


This guy is also genetically a brown, but is registered as bay:


Both of the Arabs in this pic are registered as bay. The one on the right is a bay. The one on the left is a brown.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

turnandburn1 said:


> Btw she has the usual black bay points and mane and tail.


There are three mutations of agouti which controls black. They are, bay, brown and wild bay. All three mutations of agouti create black points but have different characteristics. Bay has the black muzzle, tips of ears, mane, tail and legs which never changes no matter the season. Brown also controls black like bay does but with more style and variety, identified by the classic cinnamon colored soft spots around muzzle and flanks which may be shown in the winter coats when it cannot hide itself. Wild bay restricts black the most, black fetlocks that quickly turn chestnut colored before knee and mostly black mane and tail as well as hints of black to the tips of the ears.


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## turnandburn1 (Nov 21, 2014)

You learn something new every day . Thank you for enlightening me on this subject, but I still have one more question so I will make a new thread about it.


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