# Is he dark bay, seal brown, or blood bay?



## Creampuff

Jack is one of the livery horses. He's almost black (but his legs are slightly darker, making me suspect dark bay), but has the "seal brown" warm spots. Recently someone told me he's a "blood bay" because of his muzzle. 

Now my curiosity has won me over. What do you guys think? 

Winter/Spring Coat 










Summer Coat


----------



## jyuukai

Dark bay. Blood bays have a much lighter, brighter coat. He has definite black points, and that rules out seal brown. He has a very pretty color though


----------



## NdAppy

Brown. Legs and points can and are black on brown horses as well.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

ND, can you show me a pic of a truly bay horse? All the horses I've thought were bays for years are technically brown from what you've been saying.... 

Sorry to hijack OP!


----------



## NdAppy

MN - Just remember, that right now that is just my opinion on the lighter bays/browns. No one has had any reason to test for brown on them, so I could very well be wrong. If I had some of my own I would test them... But of course the only "bay" I own is a silver bay pony. :lol:


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

I should get Lily tested, she has that dark bay/brown look. Too bad I didn't get Flame tested when she is still alive because she definitely looked like a bay, but she got that orangish muzzle during the winter.


----------



## westonsma

He's a dark bay!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NdAppy

MN I would say that Lilly is brown from that one face pic in your barn.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

That's Flame in my barn, I have a thread posted with pics of Lily in the critique section from last August. Not sure what I called it... Maybe I could find it.


----------



## NdAppy

I looked at Lily - Lily the horse


----------



## MN Tigerstripes

Haha, I forgot I had that in there!


----------



## Horsesdontlie

I've been told that is a seal brown. Black with brown points around the nose and flank are seal brown. This is my friends Seal Brown mare.










I don't think I have ever seen a true 'Dark Bay' I think its just another term for the seal brown. But for Blood Bay, now that is your picture perfect bay. Brown/red coat with black mane/tail/legs/nose.


----------



## Creampuff

I would have thought Seal brown, as well. I also thought there was no plum "brown" in horses, outside of misconceptions? (I mean I've heard people call chestnuts 'brown.') 

We do have one Dark Bay, _Darla_, who is registered... Jack looks nothing like her, aside from the muzzle. (A picture of her is below, in her summer coat.) Jack isn't registered and is the run-of-the mill "mutt" (as far as we know), so it's hard telling and all a matter of judgement. 

I told the girl who said he was a blood bay that it didn't sound right to me. I thought "blood" bay was more... bloodish-colored. Lol! I'd also seen pictures of Seal brown horses and figured, "Hey, that is _so_ Jack." 

But, in the same respects, I'm still very new to the equestrian world, leaving plenty of room for being wrong about things. (Shrug) 

Thank you guys for your input!


----------



## NdAppy

Brown _is_ color now. They have found the gene for it. As it happens it is form of agouti along with bay and wild bay. Brown is At, Bay is A, and Wild Bay is A+.


----------



## Creampuff

NdAppy said:


> Brown _is_ color now. They have found the gene for it. As it happens it is form of agouti along with bay and wild bay. Brown is At, Bay is A, and Wild Bay is A+.


Really? Wow! When I was first learning the colors I was told not to call a horse "brown" because it would "make me sound like a fool -- 'brown' is not a true color in horses blahblah." 

I guess that shows them!


----------



## NdAppy

Lol it just goes to show how often the colors "change" with the new things people learn about them.


----------



## westonsma

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/4/0/8/8/1/gait1.jpg . -----seal brown
http://www.blueridgehanoverians.com/images/stormy.jpg . -----dark bay
http://www.theequinest.com/images/sooty-bay-1.jpg -----sooty bay (w/ dapples)
http://www.patmitchellperformancehorses.com/2006/peptos_high_oaks.jpg. -----brown

These pictures are not mine, borrowed for temporary educational purposes. No claim to prints or any rights of ownership.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## westonsma

Sorry for double post, wanted to add, Darla looks like a sooty bay to me.

Keep in mind, the only way to know for sure is to take what you see and the results from color testing and compare... as we all know, perlino will genetically test black...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NdAppy

Westonsma second one you posted is also brown. Last one is to hard to tell if it is sunbleached black or a brown. So I am going to be disagreeing with you quite heartily. the horse in the OP _is_ Brown.


----------



## westonsma

Black does not sun bleach. 

The second photo is of a tb, and actually, according to that horse's registry, brown/dark bay are the same.

https://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?page=dotRegistryIdentifyThoroughbred
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NdAppy

Registries are notorious for getting colors wrong and I would _never_ take their word as 100% on a color. The JC in particular, consider the fact they register greys as "roans" on a regular basis. There are many, many misregistered horses out there. Registries are _not_ current with color genetics.


Black based horses _can _and _do _sunbleach. Some blacks will and some blacks wont, and some blacks will sunbleach to various degrees.


MN - Here is the link to the only place that tests for brown. Pet DNA Services of AZ - Equine Services


----------



## westonsma

They may not require color testing, but they DO set the standard for their registry. As for grays and roans, they are rare in the TB world, and like other registries like AKC, haven't recognized certain dog breeds though they are technically a breed, thus they are thrown into a category. 

I have stated before that the only way to tell for sure is to have the test, but the opinions I offered are just thst, and from looking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Creampuff

I can agree with NdAppy that black horses do sun-bleach. We have 3 black horses that look "brown" or "dark bay" in the late summer, but turn black again with their thicker coats. Sun-bleaching can/will affect any coat color, as far as I'm aware; the sun even bleaches _my_ hair, taking it from auburn to almost sandy brown/red. 

But, on the website provided, it shows a picture of a Seal brown AQH; regardless of the "variation," the horse in my OP is still _brown_. 

I had actually had a heated discussion with a friend some time back about bays; I said a horse was a bay and she corrected me, saying it was a "Mahogany bay." When I retorted that it was still a _bay_, she got huffy and it went downhill from there with her "I'm right your wrong" attitude. 

Right now I'm balancing between dark bay and seal brown. I'll ask my vet and see what she thinks, in addition to everyone here.


----------



## NdAppy

That may be the standard for the registry, but it doesn't mean it is correct. There is enough information out there that going "but that is what the registry says!" and blindly following it is really kind of sad. 

As for grey TBs being rare... That's a luagh. _True_ roan TBs are extremely rare and only come from one line. It's asinine having grey horses registered as "roan."


There are enough indicators for certain colors to tell what most horses are visually without a test. All a test would do would tell you if the horses was homozygous/heterozygous. As for not knowing without a test... Guess that means we should test all the red horses as well since we don't know they are red without a test.


----------



## Poseidon

I honestly would not trust a registery to tell me what colour my horse was unless it was obviously that colour. The AQHA didn't recognize bay roan as its own colour until a few years ago. Bay roans were registered as red roans. 

And if black doesn't sunbleach, then why does my buckskin mare have reddish fetlocks from being outside?


----------



## Chiilaa

I am inclined to look at what a registry has called a horse, and then assume it is a different colour lol. That is how much I respect their colour knowledge lol.

Po and ND will have seen me say it before, but I will say it again. Here in Australia, buckskins and duns share a registry. They go in the same classes at most shows. Most people use the terms to apply to both colours, and quite happily interchange them. All it is is a lack of education about the colour genetics - just like a registry body who would accept buckskin and palomino, but not cremello or perlino.

And by the way, a perlino would test as bay.


----------



## aneternalflame

westonsma said:


> Black does not sun bleach.
> 
> The second photo is of a tb, and actually, according to that horse's registry, brown/dark bay are the same.
> 
> https://www.registry.jockeyclub.com/registry.cfm?page=dotRegistryIdentifyThoroughbred
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Black most definitely does sun bleach xD

This horse is tested black. Not bay, not brown. Black.










And anyway, registries often do not have the colors correct (ESPECIALLY the Jockey Club! The only dilute they list is palomino, yet there are buckskin, smoky brown, smoky black, perlino, smoky cream, cremello, etc!). To be accurate it is best to first look at phenotype, and then if confusion still remains, test!


----------



## QHDragon

NdAppy said:


> Brown. Legs and points can and are black on brown horses as well.


So would that make my horse brown too?










He has the lightness around his nose, eyes, and groin area and his stomach is more light brown than dark brown.


----------



## Chiilaa

Yup I would say that is a brown too Dragon


----------



## aneternalflame

I agree with Chiilaa on that one!


----------



## QHDragon

Chiilaa said:


> Yup I would say that is a brown too Dragon


Interesting, thanks. I kind of suspected it and almost made a post asking about it once, but thought "what a silly questions, he has black points so he's obviously bay!"


----------



## CCH

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g318/shelbs__/shorty2.jpg









This is the darkest bay I have ever owned. Here he is as sunbleached as it gets, the rest of the year he was almost black. I'll try to scan another photo of him soon.

Edit: fixed the photo link


----------

