# Isn't it illegal to move a street sign?



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Not a lawyer but would make much sense to me to bring paper documentation...
Old maps...
Pictures, you must have pictures of the old roads and street signs and now take current ones of what has been done.
Letter from emergency services that states no longer is your home on the 911 index.
A copy of your deed with the covenants, set-backs and "must maintain" that should be spelled out on it...
The county court records, filing deeds that state the access and roads to be so land-locked you are not as that is what is being slowly done...
Any old documentation you have that states names and locations of those existing roads, take it with you...
You can't just move a street or change a name without reason when other lives, safety of and reaching them is only through a deeded right-of-way.



Good luck.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Agreed. This is wrong, but you will need documentation. Lots of it. People like this depend on the fact that many don’t keep their documents and that most city councils will let things go if no one raises a stink about it. 

Just outline your reasoning and present it in a timeline fashion. Good Luck! Let us know how it goes.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

Over the course of the morning, I have been in contact with another neighbor. Apparently, the neighbor causing problems asked permission to close off ROW so that his "grandchildren could play more safely", but it is a dirt road in the Maine back woods with a speed limit of 17mph (Mainers are like that). We all grew up playing in that road, and it is not dangerous at all, so my neighbor and her family said "no" to having it closed off because it is the wider end of the road and easier for emergency/maintenance trucks to make the turn.

He went ahead and did it anyway.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Bring pictures and deeds showing the road in use throughout the entire time you are able to document. No they cannot do this. I've been on the other end fighting to keep an unused easement (granted and never used 45 years ago) off limits. Use would cause additional maintenance cost and damage to, as well as alteration of water flow. Court said new owner cannot use as there is an alternate easement provided in the front of the property. There was another access that was not deeded but had been in use until 15 years ago. Court also said that as that access was not official and had been out of use, the owners of that property did not have to allow access. If you have consistently used both then if your state laws are similar they should be made to return access and signage.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

As for documentation, we have photocopies of the original deeds from 1907, as well as copies of newer deeds as the property was divided amongst the heirs. I am hoping that the originals are in my aunt's safe deposit box, but since she has been institutionalized for alzheimer's/dementia/hospice for the past 7 years, who knows? The property tax maps available online correctly show the location of the roads. I will be calling the Fire Department this morning to ask what maps they use to find homes.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Agree to print off anything and everything you can. Originals are ideal, but anything you find online, print it out and note the site it came from.

Will your neighbor write a letter stating what you told us above? Even better if they write a letter _and_ go to the meeting and are very vocal in their displeasure. 

As many humans physically at the meeting to refute the problem neighbor is very important. When you speak to the Fire Department, see if the Fire Chief and/or the head of EMS will not only make written statements about the impact, but see if they will attend in person.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Spanish Rider said:


> ...it is a dirt road in the Maine back woods with a speed limit of 17mph (Mainers are like that)....



I have no advice but just had to laugh at this because...yes...exactly!


Good luck to you and your family. The thought of neighbors like that makes me shudder.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

Unfortunately, none of the affected parties have been invited to this meeting. In fact, we still have received no communication of any sort either from the new neighbor or the Town.

The only reason my sister found out about these goings on is because she went up to our cottage to check on the storm damage (4 trees hit garage). After the storm, our maintenance guy had been in to check on the damage and said that it "looked like a bomb had gone off in there". At the time, we assumed it was storm damage in the woods. Now we know it was this neighbor felling trees.

It was the other neighbor who somehow found out about the meeting. I am hoping that the reason for the meeting is because the Town Manager (no mayor here) is going to read the neighbor the riot act and inform him that moving street signs is illegal. What makes me nervous is that the neighbor wants to rescind the ROW, and I want the Town Manager to be aware of our arguments, in writing. Obviously, if it goes any further, we will have to get a lawyer. This is just the first step, and the Town can only do so much.

On a more positive note, I called the Fire Dept this morning (mostly volunteer) and spoke with the Chief of Rescue. He assured me that they use updated, printed maps, not GPS. That made me feel better. He was very receptive to my argument, saying "He can't do that", and said he would be seeing the Town Manager this afternoon and discuss it with him then. This summer, I will drop by the firehouse to double-check the map they use.

Whatever the outcome of the meeting, I am going to have a surveyor come in and re-mark the property. There are hundred+ year old metal pins in the ground somewhere, and I want to find them, make them more visible, and make sure that my boys know where they are for future reference. My grandmother had done the same with me as a child, otherwise I might not have known about our boundaries and ROW.

So much for making muffins to welcome the new neighbors!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Spanish Rider said:


> As for documentation, we have *photocopies of the original deeds from 1907*, as well as *copies of newer deeds as the property was divided amongst the heirs.* I am hoping that the originals are in my aunt's safe deposit box, but since she has been institutionalized for alzheimer's/dementia/hospice for the past 7 years, who knows?*  The property tax maps available online correctly show the location of the roads.* I will be calling the Fire Department this morning to ask what maps they use to find homes.



_*That is the kind of documentation that is needed*, will pull weight with the courts and should__ make the neighbor put back what he destroyed...your access and easement status._
_Make copies of that mapping...if you have a Staples nearby consider going and having clear blown-up, clearly seen maps made..they cost a few dollars but in this case the more and clearer the proof presented the harder it will be to deny your reasons and concerns of what the neighbor is trying to do.._
_I would strongly suggest you keep any of this documentation in a safe place just in case this ever comes up again or if the land is sold and new ownership asks what is what of the surrounding neighbors. :smile:
_

_Good luck and please let us know how this turns out...a "official ruling" it shall be one way or another._
:runninghorse2:_...._
_jmo...
_


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I have no experience with any of this but wanted to wish you luck.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

@horselovinguy , yes, I am hopeful that it will be enough. I will update when I know more.


Thank you all for your support!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Good luck to you tomorrow. And why do kids have to play in the road?


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I am on our Village Board and I can tell you in the state of IL any road signage is government property and is not allowed to be moved by anyone but the governing body that owns that road (whether it is village, city, county, state or township)

Most signs are located on the easement for that street - and regardless of what people think the road is usually not taking up all of the easement so the government may own many feet on either side of the "actual" road. A property owner cannot claim adverse possession of land owned by a government body.

You said the sign had your grandfathers name on it. You will need to prove that the governing body put the sign there and owned that sign. And that it was not in fact put there by a family member.

In most cases (depending on the size of the governing body) the person will get a hand slap and told to mind the property lines. In extreme cases trespassing, damage to government property and theft can be charged to the person trying to take over or manage the government property.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

@LoriF , good question! It's lakefront property, so the kids are usually in the water anyway!

Just to better explain the situation, I have mapped out the problem on the tax map:

Red line: Our road, at the end of which was our street sign, which he removed.

Blue line: The right of way that he wants to eliminate.


Obviously, if you buy land with 2 rights of way on it, it is cheaper than 100% private land. He thought he was getting a bargain (house lot belonged to a priest who passed away) and he could just push us out, but we are land-locked and need those accesses!


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

@Carson , we overlapped.

A college classmate of mine sent me a MaineDOT link: Maine Local Roads Center:E-911 and Private Property

"Ordinarily, it is unconstitutional for towns to expend public funds for private property, BUT, towns can expend public funds for signs to post on private property for public safety reasons. "

"Towns are not under any obligation to post signs on a public or private way. The Emergency Services Communication Bureau (E-911 office) strongly recommends that, in the interest of public safety, towns do post signs on ALL roads. In many, many places, that sign is the only identifying object to the responding ambulance or policeman."

"If a person removes a sign on a public right-of-way, it is a criminal offense. In addition, the town can recover costs in a civil suit against the perpetrator."


The Town followed the E-911 recommendations and installed signs on all roads for public safety reasons. After having read this, I think it is pretty clear that he was in the wrong. I hope this goes no further.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

_*Spanish*_, I too hope this goes no further. I think it seems like you have all your ducks in a row and all should go well. I don’t want to rain on any parade, but would like to say from experience. If this neighbor has to put the sign back and remove any obstruction he may have created, as well as clean up the mess of trees he made, he could be very disgruntled. And a disgruntled neighbor is unpredictable. Just my 2cents.

Let us know how it goes.


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## Loner (Dec 21, 2017)

Thats just wrong.Good luck.Hope they burn HIM.Legally of course.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

New neighbors can sometimes be a real PIA. 

You would appear to have a very strong case to keep the Red road and signage. Would suggest all the folks that use that road get it designed as a public (not private) road if it is not already. Locals usually like the idea of a private road, but it can create lots of problems in cases like this. 

Do not know how it is in your area, but in many areas if a private road is used for a certain number of years it becomes public access, but you will have to check the laws. 


Based on you map, would be likely that the new owner could get the blue road closed, unless it is needed as a school bus route, the red road floods at times, or something like that. 


The Red road I would work to make a public road, if not already done. Would get an attorney involved right away to save time and hassle. Pick a long time resident that golfs with the judge every Wednesday :wink:

Good Luck!!


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

UPDATE:

I have received an email that my long-time neighbor forwarded to me from new neighbor. (identifying names have been altered)


"I have purchased the land that C Lane is on. I have taken down the trees necessary to widen that road for emergency access. The town has been notified as has the fire department. That is now your right of way. The only issue remaining is the road signage. We will be meeting there this Thursday with the town to discuss that and more than likely C Lane will stay the same with a new sign that also directs vehicles to C T Road. There is now no need for two access roads to your properties. There will be no access in front of my house. C Lane is now a much better route for emergency vehicles. We will now address the road signs to make sure there is no confusion. This change is a better one for all involved."


I have spoken with the Town Manager, who said that this is a private issue. They are correcting the street signs and said that fines were a definite possibility. So, now the next step will be the courts.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Wow! Just Wow! He’s got nerve


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Spanish Rider said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> I have received an email that my long-time neighbor forwarded to me from new neighbor. (identifying names have been altered)
> 
> ...


This letter sounds as if it was drafted by an attorney. He has this all planned out. Get an attorney quickly or you may be stuck with whatever he has set up. There is still the matter of him cutting trees that damaged your property. The attorney for the rest of you will need to move quickly. 

1) If he builds a different road across his private land, he still would have to provide all property owners easements and also the utility companies. 


2) Current easements should have been recorded at the courthouse and he must abide by any deeded easements and may not block access even if he provides different access. 


3) if you have power lines, telephone lines, water lines, etc across those easements, the utility companies most likely have easements too. Get their attorneys involved because they have to have access to the utilities. 


If he is providing access along the RED road on your map, and the utilities are all located there, he might win his case.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

From that map either the top part of the red or the blue is redundant so there could be a case for closing one. As the red goes all the way to your property and the blue passes in front of his house he could well make a case for getting that ROW reversed. Access ease for vehicles would be better from the red road as they would only have to stop for traffic once not twice. If he has widened that road and put in the repairs and maintenance to make that the safer path for all then it may well be the town/courts side with the new neighbor. It could depend on just how many feet away from the house that road is. If he did not cut trees on your property or damage your fencelines (if you have fencing) and this is not your primary residence then the likelihood is that the improved access will stand especially if utilities go through the the red road. If not they can still allow only maintenance access and shut down the blue.



In our case the secondary (originally primary) access literally passes within 50 feet of the house that shut down that access and denied access across the back (the never used deeded access) but instead provided a safer and more environmentally friendly alternative across the front. The new primary access deed which is waiting for the new owner of the property to sign is from the front and creates no issues while the third (never used access which would mean using an already existing gate and putting in two more gates as well as two right angle turns through a cattle pasture and across our drive as well as moving a power pole) would create all kinds of problems. Since the renter is using the front access (though he created a different path to the house that makes no sense) we are just waiting to see if the owner decides to kick up another fuss.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

Update:

On Friday, we consulted with a lawyer, who will be studying the deeds and easements.

Our fear is that, since the blue easement is from the 19th century and that is our original easement, the end of the red easement might not be in our deed. That is what the attorney needs to decipher. Furthermore, as the blue road is the original access road to all the properties, it is our understanding that ALL of the properties (some 45) have a deeded right-of-way over that easement.

No, there are no utilities on either road. These are all single-lane dirt tracks through the back Maine woods, so thick with white pine that the sun never touches the ground. Electricity and telephone for the entire peninsula comes in on another easement to the east. Each home has a pump house to obtain water for domestic use from the lake.

@QtrBel , our situation seems to be very different from yours. In the state of Maine, these easements cannot be gated, as that would constitute trespassing. Furthermore, easements cannot be modified or rescinded without the written consent of the abutting dominant tenement holders. We have paid for road maintenance on the red road, as it is our responsibility. Now, by forcing other neighbors to use the red easement instead of the blue, that means added traffic by non-easement holders and we will be incurring additional road maintenance costs.

Basically, what it boils down to is this:

1) new neighbor bought property between two access roads that was also burdened by two legal, registered, historical easements deeded to several neighbors. In short, he bought an intersection.

2) he proceded to eliminate an easement without notifying any abutting easement holders; such modifications should be done in writing, with the signed approval of all abutting easement holders. Of course, he did all of this during the winter, when none of the neighbors are there.

3) he moved one municipal street sign (misappropriation of public property) and removed another (robbery of public property). 

4) by moving and removing street signs, he intentially created a serious public safety hazard, as emergency services would NEVER be able to find our properties without these signs (middle of the woods, middle of the night, no way!).

5) to date, he has still not contacted us to notify us of the changes.

6) his gameplan is to turn public accesses into his own provate property. If he eliminates one easement, what will stop him from eliminating the other?


He is slick, buying up cheap property with lower taxes because of all the easement burdens it carries, then bullying other neighbors into keeping quiet, all of whom just happen to be senior women in their late seventies and early eighties, one of whom has cancer and another is in Alzheimer's dementia care. Personally, I will not take this sitting down. If it is determined that my family and other abutters no longer have any claim to the original easement, I will personally make sure that his property taxes are adjusted.


The situation would have been much different if he had simply knocked on our door to introduce himself.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That is why the original deeded access is being fought - the new owner wants to use the original but alternate access was developed and used. Only one original owner remains and he still runs cattle and we run horses necessitating the gates if that original (never used) access is granted. New owners are a pain and some just seem to be out to cause all sorts of trouble for monetary gain or relief. 



I assume since there are so many on the blue that the dashed w/ solid line that continues past the blue you have drawn in is the rest of that easement making that an X? Now the new owner just wants a Y basically? Hopefully what is best for all becomes the resolution.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

> New owners are a pain and some just seem to be out to cause all sorts of trouble for monetary gain or relief.


Yes! It is very frustrating because our neighbors are like family, attending each other's wedding for generations and helping each other out in times of need like storms, fallen trees, outages, childcare, etc. When you live in the middle of nowhere, it is nice to be able to lean on your neighbors, especially as we age. This new neighbor is city folk, new money, and has made 0 effort to relate with the rest of us. The first time I met him (did not know it was him) was a few summers ago when I heard knocking on our dock. He and his son were fishing, casting line under our dock, and the sinkers were banging on it. First of all, stupid because the sinkers would scare any fish away, and second of all it is extremely dangerous to fish in a swimming area for small children. At that time, he told me that he had a right to fish wherever he wanted. Great argument for a three-year-old mentality.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The renter made the mistake of asking one of our other neighbors if he thought we would mind him shooting the deer on our property so he could fill his freezer. Bad enough his dog already took out my son's favorite rooster so he was on rocky ground with us to begin with. No, just no. The owner is a city slicker but the renter should know better as he supposedly just a good ol boy from right around these parts. Don't know who is trying to pull one over more. The owner who is exchanging rent for "fixing up" the property or the renter who doesn't know the broad side of a board from the nail he needs to hold it in place. The house has been condemned so technically can't be rented.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

> doesn't know the broad side of a board from the nail he needs to hold it in place


:rofl::rofl::rofl: I wish you luck then!


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

Just an update:

On June 11, a neighbor of ours who collects money for and supervises road maintenance (the main dirt road providing access to the peninsula is private and used/maintained by 45 property owners) sent my mother photos of our new road sign that had been installed by the Town.

All of us (myself, boys, my mother, sister with her husband and my niece) went up to the cottage on July 1st, and the sign had been taken down again. This guy has some serious huevos rancheros! So, we've been in touch with the Town again, who has sent out their Safety Ordinance Officer, or some such someone, to talk with the neighbor again. The Town Manager has told me that he cannot be fined unless caught in the act.

In the meantime, we have had a meeting with the attorney, who will be requesting a written easement grant for use of the easement (our great-grandparents built the road, however, we can find no formal written agreement with the former property owners) and demanding that he respect the municipal road sign for safety reasons.

I have also been in tough with Google Maps to have our road re-instated on their maps.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'd set up cameras there if you can. Just because.

It's not that what he is doing is so horrible (maybe he IS actually convinced that it is better for everyone to use "C Lane"?) it's how he's going about it. Not only to argue with all of you, but now the Town too? Sounds like a pretty lousy person....

Plant some poison ivy around the sign or something...


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Or put one of those exploding security packets like they put on expensive clothes. If it’s moved again, KABLAM! Neon pink paint everywhere! And cameras to laugh at the video.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

Yes, the poison ivy would probably send me to the hospital first (wouldn't be the first time), but the fluorescent paint wuld be hilarious!

Since this neighbor is demonstrating aggressive behavior and the Town can do nothing, I am afraid to have any sort of an encounter with him. But, @Blue , wouldn't it be a riot if you pulled into his driveway wth your truck and trailer, mistakenly looking for our house? Then you could unload your horses and take a trailride on our easement, which he has blocked with his vehicles. We can't get our car through, but you could get your horses through! Oh, and can your horses poop on command? :smile:

The guy is a total schmuck. Regardless of who owns what, who has a right to what, or who was there first, EVERYONE has the right to emergency services, and in a dense forest where no homes are visible, street signs are ESSENTIAL for the emergency services to find us. While things are in the hands of our lawyer, I will be in contact with the fire chief and sheriff to see if they could be of any help. I don't know it they have any way themselves to report a public safety hazard, which would probably be treated differently, but they should at least be informed.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

*Spanish*, that would be hilarious! And I would so do it too! In our little neck o’ the woods if fire and emergency services can’t find a location it gets rectified pronto. They do practice drills randomly by picking an address at random and go there. If they make one wrong turn, they find out why and fix it.

I still like the exploding paint and camera idea


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

> They do practice drills randomly by picking an address at random and go there. If they make one wrong turn, they find out why and fix it.


 @Blue , this is what I thought, and I am hoping to suggest our address. From Spain, I had called the Fire Chief, and he was dumbstruck about how/why someone would remove a street sign. He also assured me that they do not rely on Google Maps for GPS. They have updated, Town-issued maps in each vehicle.


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