# So Excited!



## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I am beyond excited! So, as many of you know, I have been thinking of breeding Desert Winds Wisper for a long time. I have finally decided on a stud and things have worked out to allow me to know we will still be here and owning her! So, come July, I am going to be breeding Wisper to this handsome guy! I know, he's a mini, but he is 37 inches and Wisper is 40 so I figure it isn't really that big a deal. He is hetero for appy spots  I love pintaloosas so hoping that is what I will get! He has bred already and one of his 3 offspring won supreme champion over all geldings, studs, and mares! His conformation is good, and has good things that I think will offset Wisper's bad things. He is thicker than Wisper, but not so much that it will be a problem! I know, I might get a lot of hate for this, but I have thought it through with my parents and we think it will work and it's going to be tons of fun!  So, I am just working out the details. How long I should keep her there, specific dates, and scheduling vet visits. Any advice on those three things would be very much appreciated! Thanks, everyone!

AMHR Appaloosa At Stud - Horses, Studs/Breeding - Pets and Livestock - Idaho Falls - For Sale - Classifieds | ksl.com

The pics of Wisper make her look really bad conformation wise, but she is really beautiful when her winter fur sheds out and she doesn't have a horrible photographer...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fL4yGprG-A8kZytyTNaZFl2RO4V0zjXVtCP5HxUami8/edit?usp=sharing


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Oh, and name ideas! Sire: Ott's Mr. Bojangles

Dam: Desert Winds Wisper


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

What are your plans for the foal? Surely you have one other than, 'I want a kyoot baybee to raise!!!!' 

So again, what are your plans for the foal, goal wise? Breeding to drive? Showing? Horses, even minis, need to be _purpose_ bred, otherwise you're doing nothing but putting another useless mouth on the ground.

Also, make sure you're okay with the possibility of losing both mare _and_ foal prior to or during birth, because it's not uncommon in minis.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm going to train to ride so that I can use him/her for riding lessons. If, for some reason, that doesn't work out, I am going to use him/her for 4h and train tricks. Showing in halter.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Alright, I think we have specific dates worked out. We are going to bring her the 1st of July and bring her home the 31st. That way, she will for sure cycle and then if she cycles again, she will still be there and we will know.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I am already dying of excitement and I still have a few months to go before she even gets bred.  I think this next year is going to be the death of me.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

What happened to your mom not wanting you to have a foal and you possibly moving. If you move, there probably won't be any place for your horses and I doubt you can afford board for 4-5 horses. Plus you're saying one of your horses is having back problems. That'll cost some $$ and will eventually drain your bank account. You are wanting to pay for the horses yourself but have no income, and what about when you go to college, buy a car, apartment, etc.?

Like I said, breeding foals aren't for the faint of heart. If your reason for doing this is to just have a cute wittle babie, then I will personally turn you away. 

So how old are you? 14? 

So if you go to college in a few years, the foal will be 4 around then. He'll just be starting his training and I would NOT put any CHILD on his back, much less one with no riding experience when the foal is 4! 

It doesn't sound like a good plan all around. He could probably not make a good lesson horse or be trained to be one in time. I would rather put an inexperience child on an old horse in his teens than a young horse that could do anything from bucking, to rearing, to bolting being young. 

He doesn't have perfect confo and neither does your mare, which could turn out into a foal wreck. Your mare's front hooves look like they turn to the outside which is super weird. :shock:

If I were you, I'd stick to the horses you have


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I posted in the first post that things have started working out. My parents have decided against moving...ever. My horse that has back problems is getting better. I have been getting more income. I had two new clients sign up for riding lessons so now I will be getting $100 a month. My parents pay for the horses. I just pay for the extras, vet, stud fee, ultrasounds, etc. So, I am going to pay the stud fee. Get her ultrasound at 14 days, and then the ultrasounds after that. We've been thinking about this a long time. I finally have it all sorted out. I won't be going to college for at least 5 years mainly because I want a break from it all before I go. Her hooves don't toe out, that is just the pics and how she was standing. Really, she has pretty good conformation. Her knees are a bit knobby, but other than that, she doesn't have any major faults.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

You seem pretty intent on this so I won't say anything about whether to breed to that specific stallion, but keep in mind that the foal will probably max out at 38 or 39 inches tall. Not big enough for any child to ride by his or herself. My 34" miniature weighed about 225 lbs. A 39 inch mini might weigh 275 absolute tops at a good weight. The most weight it should ever carry, at full maturity, including tack, would be about 60 lbs. Absolute maximum. Most four year olds weigh a good 45 lbs, and then there is the tack. Are you sure you really want a horse with that kind of weight capacity for a lesson horse? Keep in mind that most people don't let kids start lessons until they're 5 or 6 because of motor skills, and the child would almost immediately be too big for the pony. You'd really only be able to do lead line with children younger than that. 

And then there's the fact that no horse is ready to be a lesson horse at 4, 5, or even 6 years old. Most are in their early teens because they need to be very tolerant, forgiving, and broke. And then there is figuring out how to get it saddle broke enough for a tiny kid to ride without there ever being a possibility of the pony acting like a green horse and bucking/rearing/etc. 

It's your choice but if you are breeding to have a lesson pony, why not just buy one, even an unbroke one, that is 12hh or so? Still small, doesn't eat a whole lot, but big enough to carry a 10 or 11 year old easily, and probably big enough for you or another small person to break it. It would probably be cheaper too...I see dozens of $300 ponies of that height for sale- nothing wrong with them. And you could start working with it immediately, save your mare the chance of dying during pregnancy or birth, and be helping another horse get a good future. And you'll have a guarentee of it's color, gender, height, etc.

8-9 years is a long time to wait to have a pony that 'might' be of the right temperment for a lesson pony for very tiny children.

I do commend you for realizing that you will need to involve a vet very closely. Miniatures are notorious for foaling and pregnancy problems....especially red bag babies, and all it takes is one problem and both the mare and foal can die. And emergency vet visits cost a LOT. Ask me how I know


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Haha, yeah, Endiku. The reason I am still breeding to this stud even with all that is because, honestly, I want him/her more for a trick pony. I vowed to myself that I would never train a horse/pony/mini tricks like bowing if a little kid would be riding that horse. All my horses are or will be ridden by little kids, so either this one won't be and will be my "for fun" and halter pony or will be used for pony rides at city events. I also absolutely love love love appaloosa markings and 50/50 chance of this guy giving me some!  Ultrasounds are $100 here so I figure that as long as I save every penny, I should be able to afford the stud fee, 14 day ultrasound, and then a ultrasound about every other month up until birth. I'm hoping since technically he/she will only be half mini, I won't have any of the mini problems, haha


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Ebony, you can buy a pony for MUCH MUCH less of a price that can be your 'trick pony'. Go to a local auction or rescue and buy a pony, you'll be saving a pony and will pay much less without the worries the mother and foal COULD die and the pony may not turn out to be the kind you want - appy, good with tricks, etc. 

Just.Go.Adopt


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

What do you mean by mini problems? Temperment or breeding? Temperment-wise, miniatures, trained right, don't have any different personality than full sized horses IMO. It's when you spoil them that they suddenly have 'pony' attitudes. Once my mini mare had an attitude adjustment, she was the most sane, hard working animal on the farm. Regarding breeding and pregnancy problems, the issue is not just because they're miniature horses, it is because of their size and the small size of the pelvis + the large size of the foal's head and shoulders, and that is with any small breed. Miniature horse, shetland....anything unnaturally small will have a higher chance of problems. So your mare has just as many risks. Be careful.

You also need to make sure neither your mare or the stallion has dwarf genes. They're recessive so even if your mare does not show them, she could have them. Same with the stallion. Dwarfism is still a big problem with miniatures, and it is a very sad, often very expensive deformity.

If all of that checks out, you're SURE you can afford this (before breeding you need to have at very least $5-700 saved for a possible emergency), I wish you and your mare luck. Make sure you're breeding a foal that is going to have at least a decent chance at getting a good home if things go awry....because if they can, they will. I never once planned to sell my miniature mare, and yet 2 years later I found myself selling her because I lost my job and couldn't afford the care she deserved. Luckily for her she had a job that she was very good at because I invested money to train her properly as a cart horse. Other miniatures aren't half so lucky. I see them going for $20 a head and the auction every weekend. Sometimes even if they're as handy as can be, and can both be ridden and driven, they STILL end up in bad hands because that's how bad the market is for small ponies. I see at least 2 driving/riding minis a week on the CHW weekly. Perfectly good ponies with no home.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Yeah, my mare couldn't have the dwarf gene because she has no mini genes. She is Shetland/Hackney so unless dwarf can be carried in that line... I didn't come right out and ask, but the stallion's daughter was shown and won supreme champion over all geldings, mares, and stallions, and none of his offspring showed signs of dwarfism, so I don't think he does, but I will ask anyway. The lady is super nice. She is letting me keep her there for a month at no extra cost. My parents are always there just "in case" because, yeah, I am a minor, and yeah, I don't have hundreds of dollars at my fingertips, so, they are my emergency funds, haha. I am super excited, but super nervous. I don't want anything to happen to her. Haha, I was talking to my mom, (she is NOT a horse person, so don't go thinking she's stupid.) and she was like, "Pregnancy is a natural thing, I don't think you have to get a ultrasound that often." I flat out told her I was going to get her ultrasounds as often as I can afford. This entire year I am going to save every penny and every time I have enough, ultrasound! Woot woot! That will be at least every other month because I can save a minimum of $50 a month, ultrasounds cost $100 and as long as I don't have anything extra come up, I should be able to save $75 a month so ultrasounds will be every other month or every month and a half.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

If I remember right, ultrasounds actually only work for the first few months. Then the foal is too big for the ultrasound to be of much use except to see if it is alive or not....at least with full sized horses. Better to do ultrasounds to be sure she took and to make sure there aren't two foals- I think 2 ultrasounds is typical. T

Then spend your money on savings, proper nutrition for the mare, making a foal-safe pen for momma and baby (with mini foals it is even more important to have this because they are TINY and can roll under anything not flush with the ground. I once watched a mini foal get stuck under a panel that was less than 10" off the ground after she rolled) getting vet checks for momma plus vaccinations...and then you'll also need to have the vet out immediately after foaling regardless of the day of the week, to be sure the placenta came out intact, the foal is ok, and it's antibodies are where they should be. If they aren't, you ned to do transfusions immediately or the foal can die. The foal will also likely need another check after a few weeks to be sure it is growing normally, or if it gets scours (very common), or if mama has problems nursing. You also probably need to have a way to get colostrum if necessary, and you need to buy supplies for a foaling kit as well. Spend money on that kind of stuff. My mare got a uterine infection despite being cleaned out after birth, and it cost me about $420 for the two vet checks, antibiotics, etc.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Thank you, Endiku.

So, my mare is leaving July 1st and being picked up July 31st, so she could potentially be a month pregnant when I get her back. I won't be able to get her ultrasound until she gets back, so would just one ultrasound work? To make sure she took and it would be late enough to see if there are two? Thank you for telling me that, I probably would have wasted money on ultrasounds. We have a vinyl fencing that is probably 10 or 12 inches above the ground. Is there something that you would suggest lining under it so he/she can't do that? They will be alone in a pasture for at least the first couple weeks and then they will be put back in with my other horses until weaning.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

She just had her vaccinations and will be getting a booster in a month Up to date on worming and is getting trimmed this Friday.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

She isn't a maiden. She threw one foal before, a bay pinto filly that was healthy. No problems with pregnancy, birth, weaning, or anything. Perfect mommy. Hoping she will be like that again.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

What would you suggest for a foaling kit?

I know gloves, towels, iodine for dipping the umbilical stub into (could you use hydrogen perioxide?) I also know that you are supposed to examine the placenta for any rips or tears, basically any abnormalities because it could mean she has some inside her still. Baby must get up within a couple hours, start suckling withing 12? hours, and poop within 24, or somewhere around that time range. So, my schedule so far... month of July she will be at stud, when she gets home, ultrasound, then I have a gap where I haven't really decided what I am going to do yet...month before due date, she will be separated from other horses and couple months before, more feed is given. She is up to date on vaccines so that's not a problem.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Would it be better to buy one of these: VSI Foal Kit | eBay

Or just put one together separately? 

That reminded me of needing Enema just in case baby doesn't poop so I don't have to rush to the vet for some..


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Better to have the vet give the enema, a slight error can cause major damage. Even if the stallion produced one winner, how many horses were in the class and were they backyard bred and owners just showing for fun? Quite common as most shows/classes for minis tend to be more for fun than serious breeding/judging. 

As far as color goes, not a reason to breed. My mom's boss mare has a 50% chance of throwing tobiano and only 1 out of her 4 foals got the tobiano. Then you get the appy color genes which are very unpredictable. Even a little snowflake roaning on the hips is considered a colored appy. Add the possibility of tobiano to that and the hips could be covered with white from the tobiano and no visible appy coloring even if you did win the lottery and get both the tobiano and the appy. 

Breeding for a trick/fun pony isn't the best idea as you are still a dependent and have no idea where your future will end up. Proof is that only days ago your parents were thinking of moving and the horses would have to sell, that can easily happen again in another month or a couple years. Life happens, no one can foresee the future. If you really want to do some positive and maybe get a chance at a baby, buy a 12hh pony mare in early spring from an auction who looks a little heavy behind the ribs, you could be saving two lives. And the mare will be of a height that is suitable for children and yet big enough for you to break in. 

As for college, the longer the break you take, the harder it is to get back into the habits of class attendance and homework. In fact, taking a break between high school and college will lower your chances of actually wanting to go to college as it is just easier not to go. Not impossible but there is certainly less desire for college and relearning all the math equations (seems like the first to go as that is typically not practiced every day outside of school unless you actually get a job after high school that uses geometry and trigonometry)

As far as ultrasounds, 30 days is too late to do anything but confirm pregnancy. 14 days after the last cover date and you can pinch a twin safely if it is needed. There is a small window of opportunity to safely pinch a twin before they become too attached to the uterus lining for safe removal of one twin. If a twin is detected and pinched, a follow up ultrasound insures the remaining twin is growing well. Another ultrasound at 90 days is also recommended as this checks to make sure your mare is still in foal (miscarriages are often in the first trimester)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I second the above post. If you want an appy why not buy an appy that will be a bit bigger and you can ride it? If you really want a foal why not consider going to the sales and getting a larger mare that looks to be in foal? Sure it will be a gamble what you will get but at least a bigger pony will be of more use to you in the long run and you will potentially be able to break the mare and use her as well. Then you can potentially save two more lives instead of adding another one with a bit of an uncertain future. Have you got anyone near you that's experienced with horses? Foaling can be a huge risk and while advice online can help it's really no substitute for someone with a few years experience who can help you at home. Especially being so young and your parents not knowing much about horses. Babies can be fun but it's not really something you want to undertake unless you have experience or experienced help.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i see one Big issue with that stud (and many small ones too). he is LONG in the back. so you would end up with a foal that is long in the back. by putting the MAX weight on it coupled with a long back i see soundness issues way down the road. NOW instead of using it for a RIDING lesson pony how about a "the is how you groom, tack and lead" pony and then a driving pony?


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Yeah, Kiger, that is kind of what I was thinking. Less of actually "riding" just to lessen the attention on Midnight. The thing with a rescue is my mom would much rather do this than a rescue because this is a lot of work on MY part. Yeah, she may have to help out a bit, but for the most part, it will be my deal. If I got a rescue, she would have to drive hours and hours, go to an auction, be there to tell me "Nope, don't want that one." Just in time to save me from bidding, drive hours and hours home and have lots of vet bills to worry about. This is something that yes, there may be emergency vet bills but as long as everything goes well, it will be periodic bills that I can save for in advance. So, another ultrasound at 90 days. Would 30 days be too late to even tell if there was twins? That poses a problem. I could maybe see if the stallion owner could get a vet out and ultrasound there 14 days after if she thinks she is pregnant...? I have heard stories of people waiting too long to ultrasound, not knowing there was twins and losing both babies. For sure, don't want that to happen to my girl. Thanks for everyones feedback and advice. They don't actually need the enema unless they aren't pooping, right?


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

The enema is not needed unless the foal is struggling with pooping and it is too easy to rupture the rectum if you try to do this yourself. Experienced breeders can safely do an enema themselves but it is always the safest route to go with a vet. 

30 days is too late to do anything about twins other than abort the whole pregnancy. 

Not all ponies at auctions are "rescues" and needing desperate vet and farrier care, many are taken to the auction from loving homes who either just had too many or hit hard times. 

You can also end up with a foal you breed for needing monstrous vet bills. If the mare doesn't give good colostrum you could have a $900+ vet bill to get the foal a transfusion otherwise the foal will have no immunities and die with the slightest germ exposure. Some foals have problems with their legs and require casts or other medical treatment. Basically, if money is tight and you don't have a couple thousand waiting in an emergency fund, don't breed. 

Foals are expensive since you have to care for them for many years before training them to do anything more than halter breaking and require careful management. Better fencing, especially for minis as they are notorious escape artists. If you treat a foal like a puppy or an adorable baby, you are creating a monster who will not respect you or other people when they are full grown and can do damage. If any of your siblings, friends, relatives or lesson kids let a foal nibble on them, nip at them, kick out at them or anything else an adult horse would not be allowed to do, a terror is being created. Foals learn how to interact with other horses and people starting the day they are born and it is very hard to correct bad manners that they learned so quickly when they were allowed to as a fuzzy foal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

I 100% agree with those who have said to get a rescue horse. Not every horse at an auction is going to be skin and bones and loco. There are some good horses.

You take a huge risk here with breeding. And breeding for color? Oh boy, that is a HORRIBLE reason to do it. The foal may turn out to not be appy colored - it may not even turn out to be a TRICK pony.

And by the time you break it, it'll be college time. And still at a young age, I wouldn't be a small child with no experience on it or NEAR it. TOO dangerous and since you don't have liability insurance, game over. I would wait until he's like 10 before bringing a child near him, doubt you'd wait that long.

So you want this horse to be a trick horse and also a riding one? I thought you didn't want that? Hmm....

And I agree that your stallion and mare have their flaws (some BIG) that could make the foal a conformation wreck.

I will have to say you'll probably pay more for the whole breeding thing than you would adopting from an auction. And if you don't want to make the drive, no horse! 

From your other posts I would say you aren't that experienced. If I were you, I'd drop the breeding and find a nearby breeding stable or something and ask if you can help. You can learn much more about foals and maybe help train many.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faiza425 (Dec 21, 2012)

Roman said:


> I 100% agree with those who have said to get a rescue horse. Not every horse at an auction is going to be skin and bones and loco. There are some good horses.
> 
> You take a huge risk here with breeding. And breeding for color? Oh boy, that is a HORRIBLE reason to do it. The foal may turn out to not be appy colored - it may not even turn out to be a TRICK pony.
> 
> ...


Roman, I think at this point she has already made her decision.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Since the OP has made her decision maybe advice on keeping an in foal mare and foaling would be more helpful
Details on how to deal with problems, recognize problems, actual costs etc would be useful


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Regarding the fencing, what we did was we bought no-climb fencing and attached it to the fence, since we had either corral panels or wood board fence. It worked for us. You have to make sure you attach it properly though so it can't curl or develop sharp ends that can hurt the babies. Mini babies are TINY so I'd say if you think a small dog can get through it, so can the baby.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Yeah, Endiku, she/he probably could slip under it. I will look into the no climb fencing. I'm not breeding for color, that is just one of the plus to this stud. I love the appy color and breeding to this stud could potentially give me that. That doesn't mean I am breeding specifically for color.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Ebonyisforme said:


> Alright, I think we have specific dates worked out. We are going to bring her the 1st of July and bring her home the 31st. That way, she will for sure cycle and then if she cycles again, she will still be there and we will know.


If she doesn't come into season early in the month then she will not have a second cycle whilst at the stud.

If she has already had a goal then you need to have her swabbed to make sure she is clean before going off to the stud. 

As for scans, she needs to be scanned at 14 days after covering, the again at 42 days to make sure she has held.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

So, I'm just going to ask a bunch of questions. I will probably have more later on, and some of these will probably sound stupid to those of you that are experienced. I tend to worry...a ton...way more than I should, about stuff like this.

So, she is going to be gone a month and could get prego anytime during that month. What should I do about ultrasound to make sure no twins?

Do you put your pregnant mares on a different feed/hay/grain as they get closer? If so, what is it called?

When would it be okay to let my other mares back in with her after birth? A few weeks? Months?

Is there anything you can do to know about and/or prevent red bag delivery?

When the mare starts pushing, are you supposed to start pulling or just let her do it by herself?

Is it okay to let her foal in a pasture or should I take her to a barn with stalls?

That's all I can think of right now...


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

The twins question has been answered repeatedly. Ultrasound 14 after the last time she stood for the stud at the end of the heat cycle. Wait much longer (days) and you can end up having to abort the pregnancy if twins are found after the safe pinching window. 

Feed changes depends on their normal feed and pasture. No fescue in hay or pasture. If you have fescue grass in your pasture your mare will need to be dry lotted (dirt paddock with no grass/weeds) for the last trimester so she can actually produce milk to feed a foal. Salt and mineral blocks are very important as well as getting the mare on a mare/foal grain starting the last trimester until weaning, amount to give depends on mare's weight and the feed bag will tell you how much to feed and how often. 

Letting the mare and foal back in with the herd depends on many factors. Space (size and shape of the pasture), herd dynamics and how possessive/reactive/protective the mare is when she has a foal at her side. 

Red bag delivery is the early detachment of the placenta and the placenta is coming out before the foal. The moment the placenta detaches, the foal starts to suffocate from the lack of oxygen the placenta only have while still attached to the uterus. This is sometimes caused by uterine infections, uterine cultures can help detect infections and the medical treatment to prevent premature placenta detachment will turn the cost of the pregnancy to the hundreds and possibly thousands depending on how long treatment is needed. If there is a red bag delivery, time is not on your side. You have to cut through the very tough placenta, get it out of the way and pull the foal out as fast as possible. This is a rare time to have to pull a foal and it is dangerous to pull foals as they are fragile still (pulling soft loose joints forcefully damages their joints)

As far as pulling a foal, don't do it unless absolutely necessary (like red bag delivery or locked up shoulders that prevent the shoulders from passing through). The way to properly pull a foal is very complicated and easy to do wrong, especially when you are excited to see the foal. If the foal is in the proper position, let the mare do her job. Human interference causes problems including making the mare stop pushing on her own altogether. If mares have the foals pulled, they will stop pushing at a certain point expecting the rest of the work will be done for them. Let the mare clean off her foal unless you have freezing temperatures as this is bonding time for the mare an foal and is very important for them. Sit back and watch, crowding and overhandling the foal at this point can lead to a break in the bond and push the mare to either reject the foal or become aggressive towards people to protect her baby. 

A grassy clean pasture (not mucky or muddy) is the best place to foal, it is the cleanest environment. If that is not possible, a frequently cleaned stall with thick straw is the second best option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Thank you, Sunnydraco. I will look for mare/foal feed at my tack store next time I go. We don't have fescue, so that is one thing I won't have to worry about. So, no to pulling, our pasture is not mucky or muddy, but it's not exactly covered in lush grass either. They eat it down too fast, so it is more like a thin covering. We don't have stalls, so if I need to put her in a stall, I will be taking her to a barn nearby.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

If you don't have stalls, there is very little chance you will be there when she foals. With no complications, the foals are born so fast, sometimes when they are being WATCHED the event gets missed! 

I think the vet should go to the stallions home while she is there to be ultrasounded, otherwise there is no way to know she took until she comes home, unless you have a way to tease her, know she is coming in, then take her to the stallion. 

Good Luck!


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Thanks, Greentree. I will be buying a camera and hooking it up to a tv so I can be inside and watch her all day long as it gets closer. I will have it hooked up in a family area, so even if I'm not watching, someone may walk past and happen to see something out of the ordinary and come get me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think all of my mares foaled in the night or the early hours of the morning.
Even if you opt to have the mare foal outside you need somewhere under shelter with lighting where she can be contained if something does go wrong and you need a vet - they will not thank for if they have to fumble around in the dark in the pouring rain trying to deal with a bad situation


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm for sure going to have lights out there and some kind of shelter specifically for her.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Does anyone care enough for me to start a pregnancy & foaling thread when I send her off to the stud?


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

My dad is thinking about breeding his mare. She has been bred before and has good conformation. Really good attitude as well. Don't know, though. His horse, his decision.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> My dad is thinking about breeding his mare. She has been bred before and has good conformation. Really good attitude as well. Don't know, though. His horse, his decision.


If you meant to post a picture, it didn't show. What about the pedigree? What is he wanting to breed for?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

There is a saying. "Don't count your chickens before they hatch." 

You are letting yourself get carried away with all the palaver. A lot can go wrong before she even gets to foaling.

First off, why leave the breeding until July? If she doesn't get in foal then you are looking at a late foal of she is covered again. 

She needs to be swabbed for cleanliness before she goes to the stallion. E too should be cleanliness tested at the start of his stud season. 
Once covered it is best to have her scanned at the stud. If she is in foal then rescanning at 42 days to check she has held is really all she needs. With the TB mares they were again tested at the end of September because if they had re absorbed or aborted there was no stud fee to pay. With your mare this would be pointless as she would not be so far along. (We aimed for March foals) 

Then it is a matter,of just letting the baby cook. Feed should be balanced but as she is small then she certainly doesn't need extra feed and getting fat. 

As for foaling it is usually best to let them get on with it. Interfering when you know nothing about it can do more harm than good. Most mares dislike people being there. 
Watch from a distance. 

One TB mare I had would foal when no one was around. Even when she was at stud where they had cameras set up, she waited until they had to assist a mare in difficulties and had her colt. No one saw her. 

The idea of breeding is great - however there is much that can go wrong on the way and rearing foals is fine but, they cost to get them to a rideable age.

To many horses bred without thought of what will happen to the foal should you not be able to afford to keep them.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Ebonyisforme said:


> My dad is thinking about breeding his mare. She has been bred before and has good conformation. Really good attitude as well. Don't know, though. His horse, his decision.


 If he is going to breed his mare you might want to think about breeding them both close to the same time. It's nice to have two little ones that can buddy up especially at weaning time. This is IF he is going to do it anyway, breeding two mares just so the foal has a playmate isn't a reason to breed.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

JCnGrace said:


> If he is going to breed his mare you might want to think about breeding them both close to the same time. It's nice to have two little ones that can buddy up especially at weaning time. This is IF he is going to do it anyway, breeding two mares just so the foal has a playmate isn't a reason to breed.


His baby would be way bigger than mine. My girl is 10hh and will be bred to a 9.1hh pony. His is 15hh and would be bred to anywhere from 14-16hh. Would that be a problem? Also, we have the capability to separate into two different pasture/paddocks, but we have 3 horses. So, I was thinking if he was going to breed her maybe to do it a month or two after or before so that when it comes "their time" my pony and his horse will both have their own pasture for a couple months. 
Don't have good conformation pics, but gives you an idea of her markings. We have a thing for black pintos. :lol:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/15yZYo3MwvAjFy8SdxV37VuIQVTSZm-3GMCEpoHEmbJA/edit?usp=sharing

I am breeding in July because she will be out to pasture to foal and I want it to be warm when she does and *hopefully* no risk of a crazy snow storm.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> There is a saying. "Don't count your chickens before they hatch."
> 
> You are letting yourself get carried away with all the palaver. A lot can go wrong before she even gets to foaling.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Answered your question above. I will for sure be getting her ultrasounds at 14 and around 40ish days. I am trying my best to be responsible about this. Figured up the costs so far. From now until July I need to save $50 so that I will have $200, $150 for the stud fee and $50 for her hay for the month. Then, between now and then, will be saving any extra I get (usually $20-$30 in *tips*) so I will have enough for the 14 day ultrasound which costs $100. Then, I will have to save another $100 within a month and a half and after that, it will just be saving in case she needs another exam or something goes wrong.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I would want to also have a minimum of $1000 in savings just in case something went wrong. Vets fees mount up at an alarming rate and I think you'd find it very tough to have to make a decision to have the mare euthanized and maybe risk losing the foal as well as the cheaper option because you couldn't afford the treatment.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I would want to also have a minimum of $1000 in savings just in case something went wrong. Vets fees mount up at an alarming rate and I think you'd find it very tough to have to make a decision to have the mare euthanized and maybe risk losing the foal as well as the cheaper option because you couldn't afford the treatment.


Yeah, I am paying for all the "routine" things. I am saving as much as I can this entire year and have a bit saved up right now. Should something happen and I don't have enough to pay for it, my parents are my "emergency funds" Haha


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I hope they know that!!!
When my old mare was taken ill last year I paid out nearly $4000 in vets fees, I still lost her so another huge chunk of money then to spend on euthanizing and disposing of her body


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Yes, haha, they do. I really have tried to think this through. I know that people on here think I am an immature little girl that is thoughtlessly putting her pony at risk, but I'm not.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> His baby would be way bigger than mine. My girl is 10hh and will be bred to a 9.1hh pony. His is 15hh and would be bred to anywhere from 14-16hh. Would that be a problem? Also, we have the capability to separate into two different pasture/paddocks, but we have 3 horses. So, I was thinking if he was going to breed her maybe to do it a month or two after or before so that when it comes "their time" my pony and his horse will both have their own pasture for a couple months.
> Don't have good conformation pics, but gives you an idea of her markings. We have a thing for black pintos. :lol:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15yZYo3MwvAjFy8SdxV37VuIQVTSZm-3GMCEpoHEmbJA/edit?usp=sharing
> ...


Do you know about frame? If your dad is thinking about breeding, he needs to test his mare for genetic diseases and frame/lethal white. While his mare has tobiano, she also has other white patterns that are not tobiano, could be one or more of the "overo" genes: sabino, splash and/or frame. Last thing anyone wants is to breed two frame carriers together for a 1 in 4 chance of watching a beautiful full term baby die. Test the mare so he knows if he has to find frame tested negative stallions or not, and most stallion owners don't test for frame especially if they think it is impossible for "solid" stallions to carry it and some are misguided or uneducated about frame (thinking horses cannot carry it if they have other patterns like tobiano). 

As far as saving money for breeding/care, you need more than just the bare minimum for the stud fees and ultrasounds. You need emergency funds and not rely on mom and dad to pay, especially if finances are tight. My mom paid over a thousand dollars on one foal in vet fees in the first 48 hours after birth which saved the foal's life. She paid over $500 on another pregnancy when the mare delivered 3 months early and retained the placenta. When problems occur with mares and/or foals, vet bills are very expensive as they are almost always emergency calls and can be at anytime of the day or night. 

Not too surprised by how cheap the stud fee is either, part of the reason why so many minis are backyard bred and sold cheap too, average cost of a mini for sale is $200 with very few exceptions (superb cart training/in hand show jumping or amazing pedigree with amazing color/show record). Advertising horses for sale for my mom, it is amazing how many people want to buy a young horse by trading a handful of minis. As cute as minis are, my mom has no use for them and won't trade one yearling filly for several minis. 

As far as pasture breeding, you greatly increase your risk of uterine infections. Each time a stallion covers a mare, he exposes her to the possibility of getting something foreign in the uterus which is at a greater risk in the pasture. Best would be if the mare was kept seperately and teased by the stallion, when in heat, cover her no more than once a day. Every other day is better. In the pasture, mares can be covered over and over by the stallion and no one is keeping it a clean environment before or after each cover. You may get lucky and not get a uterine infection (infections can prevent pregnancy or kill a viable pregnancy or cause a red bag delivery) but it is a gamble and can be very costly when you lose.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Is there a way to keep it clean? If the stud owner washed her rectal area every day would that help out? I am so nervous because Wisper will be 2 hours away from a month. If something happened...

Does the vet have to test for frame or is it something you can do yourself? Could Wisper have it too? So, even if a stallion is not pinto, could he have it? We will probably look for one that has been tested for frame if my dad does breed her anyway, just to be on the safe side. But, will definitely test them both if needed!


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Why do so many people pasture breed if it is so risky? Not trying to be sassy, just a honest question. Both mares have had at least one foal before. Both were healthy and beautiful! (Both pintos, too ) I know that doesn't mean anything, but they have..


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Oh! Name ideas?

Sire: Ott's Mr. Bojangles
Dam: Desert Winds Wisper

So far, I have come up with 
Desert Wind Jangles and calling him/her Jingle. Of course, barn name will only be Jingle if I like it after seeing the baby. That is the only one I have been able to think of so any suggestions would be great! Want to have a registered name ready so I can get the foal price instead of weanling price on registration!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> Why do so many people pasture breed if it is so risky? Not trying to be sassy, just a honest question. Both mares have had at least one foal before. Both were healthy and beautiful! (Both pintos, too ) I know that doesn't mean anything, but they have..


Because pasture breeding is easy and risks are ignored. Do you know how many people get a new horse and just throw them out into a herd without even introducing them in a controlled environment or one at a time? And then they just let them run around and fight to establish a pecking order. This happens often and with pasture breeding for a month it is likely to be more than just the mare and the stud if they are breeding their own mares or other outside mares at the same time. 

To hand breed horses takes more people and training of the stallion. You also don't know what kind of manners the stallion has towards mares or how your mare will behave towards strange horses/stallion. There is risk of physical injury to both mare and stallion. Some stallion owners only AI because they don't want any risk to their stallion's ability to stay a stud or risk any injury that would cause his death. Yes, stallions have been killed or sterilized by mares during live cover, they expose very sensitive regions to the mare's hindquarters during breeding and all it takes is one kick.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> Is there a way to keep it clean? If the stud owner washed her rectal area every day would that help out? I am so nervous because Wisper will be 2 hours away from a month. If something happened...
> 
> Does the vet have to test for frame or is it something you can do yourself? Could Wisper have it too? So, even if a stallion is not pinto, could he have it? We will probably look for one that has been tested for frame if my dad does breed her anyway, just to be on the safe side. But, will definitely test them both if needed!


Frame tests cost $25 per animal, you pull hairs with roots attached 
Lethal White Overo - Horse Coat Color

Minis, American Shetlands, quarter horses, paints, thoroughbreds are some of the breeds known to carry frame. Some breeds don't have to worry about frame like purebred Arabians.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I already talked to the owner about that because I was kind of nervous about throwing her in with a herd. She says that when there aren't outside mares, she as whatever mares she wants prego in with him, but when outside mares come in, she takes them out so it is just him and her. Said he was gentle. My mare is bigger than him so I don't know whether or not that will be a problem. She isn't a trouble maker, so unless he's just really mean...


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Alright, I will order those and get them both tested!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> I already talked to the owner about that because I was kind of nervous about throwing her in with a herd. She says that when there aren't outside mares, she as whatever mares she wants prego in with him, but when outside mares come in, she takes them out so it is just him and her. Said he was gentle. My mare is bigger than him so I don't know whether or not that will be a problem. She isn't a trouble maker, so unless he's just really mean...


She may not like him though, some mares are very choosy. I know someone years ago who was backyard breeding grade pintaloosas and even pasturing mares with stallions, a few of those mares hated every stallion they had and wouldn't let any of them get near. So while their owner wanted foals out of these mares, the mares never let any stallion get near them. She was really hoping that a new young colt would finally give her this wish as those mares swooned over the yearling but tragically he died first (probably ate something bad as they were frequently fed old bread stores threw out and had lawn mowing services dump huge piles of grass clippings in the pastures, he was one of the three they lost to a sudden death within days of each other and all three were pastured together).


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

That's horrible! I will make sure to stay at the farm for a hour or two and just make sure they are doing well together. I am also going to be texting the owner off and on the entire time they are together.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

About size and turning them out together. When my riding pony had her foal she was out with full sized foals. My mini's on the other hand are never turned out with full sized horses or foals even when they are adults. Just to give you perspective on the size of a mini foal at birth mine were always around 12 inches tall and 18 pounds. So your mare at 40 inches and the stud at 36 1/2 inches is probably not going to produce a foal big enough that a full sized foal will be a good companion for.

You're talking about registering the foal but as what? Unless they've changed it in the past few years even B class mini's have to be 38 inches and under. With the size of your mare there is a strong possibility of the foal exceeding that limit. 

I'm not going to try to talk you out of breeding your mare because that is your business but I do wish you'd seriously reconsider the stallion that you've chosen. You're future pony would be much more useable, even to you, if you picked a stallion that was a little larger than your mare vs so much smaller.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Yeah, I had looked at bigger ponies but all of them were very stocky and would make me nervous to breed her to because she is more of a teeny delicate girl. Not stocky at all. I will be registering as pinto if he/she has the characteristics and possibly the ASPC. <-- That will have to depend on what the specific rules for that association are. Wisper is registered as Pinto and American Show Pony. Thank you for the size approximates, I had been trying to find something about how big hers would most likely be. This stallion has everything I was looking for. He isn't black (I didn't want it to be even more likely for another black pinto, already have two and a black mare..) He is a good size for her, not too big, not terribly small, he is thicker than her but not so much that I will beat myself up about too big of shoulders, he isn't 10 hours away , and the owner is really nice, he has a good attitude, his foals are proven and are GORGEOUS! Many more things, but don't want to take another hour listing them all. The cons: He is long in the back, he is a bit smaller, not so much that it is a problem. Thank you for not trying to tell me not to breed. I am the most excited I have been in a long time and I still have 4 months before I even drop her off.   :/


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

I just had to say my mare was pasture bred but the stallion was also used for hand breeding and he knew how to behave. He covered her a few times and they had more than enough room that if my mare didnt want to be near him she had room to get away. Thankfully my mare came into heat the first week she was there and it was just a waiting game to see if she came back into heat. I also agree with finding a stallion that is a little larger than your mare than one that is that much smaller, especially if you want it as a lesson pony.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> Yeah, I had looked at bigger ponies but all of them were very stocky and would make me nervous to breed her to because she is more of a teeny delicate girl. Not stocky at all. I will be registering as pinto if he/she has the characteristics and possibly the ASPC. <-- That will have to depend on what the specific rules for that association are. Wisper is registered as Pinto and American Show Pony. Thank you for the size approximates, I had been trying to find something about how big hers would most likely be. This stallion has everything I was looking for. He isn't black (I didn't want it to be even more likely for another black pinto, already have two and a black mare..) He is a good size for her, not too big, not terribly small, he is thicker than her but not so much that I will beat myself up about too big of shoulders, he isn't 10 hours away , and the owner is really nice, he has a good attitude, his foals are proven and are GORGEOUS! Many more things, but don't want to take another hour listing them all. The cons: He is long in the back, he is a bit smaller, not so much that it is a problem. Thank you for not trying to tell me not to breed. I am the most excited I have been in a long time and I still have 4 months before I even drop her off.   :/


If you read the PtHA registration rules, you need a stallion report for registration unless registered with another reputable breed registry first. Hardship registration is expensive and doesn't get as accepted in PtHA shows and has little value for the horse other than a paper with no lineage and possibly no age. If you get a pinto with any appy characteristics you won't be able to register with PtHA either. Appy characteristics/patterns are strictly forbidden in their registration books. Read up on the rules for any and every reputable registry (lots of registries that aren't worth the piece of paper you pay to get to say the horse is registered with them). You may find that you are breeding for a grade foal that cannot have a single worthwhile paper on them.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

We mostly just have them as pleasure pets so I don't know if registration will matter all that much, but I will still try to get him/her registered in some association. My dad was looking at a blue roan belgian stallion? He always throws a roan so the possibilities would most likely be a blue roan or blue roan tobiano, both of which we LOVE! Is that a bad idea or a okay one? (It would definitely be way too big to be turned out with Wisper's foal)


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> We mostly just have them as pleasure pets so I don't know if registration will matter all that much, but I will still try to get him/her registered in some association. My dad was looking at a blue roan belgian stallion? He always throws a roan so the possibilities would most likely be a blue roan or blue roan tobiano, both of which we LOVE! Is that a bad idea or a okay one? (It would definitely be way too big to be turned out with Wisper's foal)


What would be the purpose of the cross? The mare looks light boned and lightly built, not a good choice to cross with a heavy boned belgian. You could easily get a foal that had light boned legs and a heavy body which is a disaster that cannot be reversed and serious leg and hoof problems (lifetime lameness). Never breed for color or thinking it would look cool. 

Also remember, that if at any time in the next twenty years or more finances or housing changes that doesn't allow for horses, the foals you created will need to be marketable for more than meat prices. Pleasure pets that are pretty tend to sell for meat prices and hope someone will give them a good home as you won't be able to be choosy about who buys when you can't keep them.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Belle is definitely not light. She is short and stocky, haha. definitely the "thickest" we've had. I don't know if you meant Wisper, or if it is just the pics. We wouldn't breed for color we would breed for size and temperament with color as a plus. My dad can't go on long rides with our horses because they are all shrimps and he is heavier. Belle is like 14.5 and yes, he can ride her, but she is small.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> Belle is definitely not light. She is short and stocky, haha. definitely the "thickest" we've had. I don't know if you meant Wisper, or if it is just the pics. We wouldn't breed for color we would breed for size and temperament with color as a plus. My dad can't go on long rides with our horses because they are all shrimps and he is heavier. Belle is like 14.5 and yes, he can ride her, but she is small.


"Stocky" compared to lightly built ponies but not compared to drafts or heavy built stock horses. Buying a horse he feels more comfortable riding is better than trying to breed for one. Cheaper than breeding as well once you add up all the costs and hope you actually got what you wanted. 

Do you know why there is such a problem with halter bred quarter horses? They have gone so extreme with a fad that the horses no longer function beyond tip toeing around a sandy arena. They break down under saddle or even out at pasture as their heavy muscled body collapses their feet which are too small for the weight and they are leg/joint problem as well from their small legs carrying their own weight. 

Please listen to advice this time and just buy a better built horse for your dad to ride.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

At this point, it's not really my decision. It is his horse and his money. I could call off my breeding of Wisper if I wanted to, but I can't keep him from scheduling for Belle.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Ebonyisforme said:


> At this point, it's not really my decision. It is his horse and his money. I could call off my breeding of Wisper if I wanted to, but I can't keep him from scheduling for Belle.


If your dad doesn't know much about horses and especially breeding, you can give advice. His mare has a weak hind end and is too light for crossing with a draft. Breed like to like unless you have excellent stock for the cross and lots of experience with crossing horses with such drastic differences. There is a huge risk that the foal would not be what he wants as I imagine that he is wanting a happy medium between the two horses. Reality is that you almost never get a happy medium.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Alright, I think it is a no go. May change his mind and go for it, but we decided it probably wouldn't be the best for us to have two foals at the same time that couldn't be turned out together.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

And you can cross out registering with the Pinto registry unless you get a colt who is gelded and doesn't have appy coloring. From their website: The PtHA does not accept any horses with Appaloosa (except solid-bred Appaloosa geldings), draft or mule breeding and/or characteristics or known breeding within the previous four generations, except for utility classified horses.

With an appy patterned sire, only a solid-bred gelding could be registered with the American Pinto Horse Association.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

Thank you for pulling that up. I guess I will have to look at the ASPC rules. I personally don't really care all that much about registration, but I know that if I were to ever sell, it would make him/her way more valuable and easier to sell. Some people around me won't even buy a horse that doesn't have papers even if it can be registered.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

Ebonyisforme said:


> Belle is like 14.5 and yes, he can ride her, but she is small.


First off, you need to learn horse heights. There is no 14.5 >.> That would be 15.1hh and that should be big enough for your dad! Otherwise you'll probably need a 17hh draft which I highly doubt you'll get from your ponies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

On the ultrasound front. Its really fairly difficult to get an ultrasound on a mini. The rectum/pelvis is often very small which limits how far you can reach in and that impacts the probes ability to "read" the uterus. As someone, who has ultra sounded mini's because the doctor's hands were too big to fit. Likewise, body wall ultrasounds are difficult because sometimes the probes don't have enough "depth" to read the the uterus. Ultrasound at 14 days but be prepared to ultrasound again two weeks later. Be aware that due to the small size of a miniature horse if you have a problem during delivery you are putting that mare down. Most vets don't have the hand size to fit into a mini to manipulate a foal live or dead. This is even if the vet could get there in that 45 minute viability window that exists during delivery. 

No way to prevent red bag delivery, you can be prepared with a vet on call and a back hoe. Red bag is premature detachment of the placenta. So basically the foal suffocates before/while its being born. Sometimes they live and become "dummy foals" which are oxygen deprived foals that require intensive 24 hour nursing care and sometimes even that is not enough. I know some folks who have a mini breeding farm and with their high tech video cameras and 24 hour monitoring they still end up with dead foals that they have no clue what happened.

With all due respect this stallion is nothing to write home about. If it wasn't for his color he would not be a stallion. Winning one show is not a big deal or it should not be. This stallion is not dual registered. What is his teeth alignment? What about cryptorchidism (retained testicles)? These are common issues in miniature horses and as a breeder you should be aware of them. Selling foals out of state could easily mean you sold them auction in another state.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

People pasture breed miniatures because you can't really collect them with AI. Its also possible that the registry won't be accepted. Pasture breeding is dangerous for the horses (mares kick and hit stallions, infections happen for the mare), AI is dangerous for the person collecting. I have seen a stallion mounted on the dummy aim a kick at the vets head and miss only by inches, only to tear off the dummy and go after the vet as soon as he was done.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Roman said:


> First off, you need to learn horse heights. There is no 14.5 >.> That would be 15.1hh and that should be big enough for your dad! Otherwise you'll probably need a 17hh draft which I highly doubt you'll get from your ponies.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


where are you getting the idea she'll need a 17hh draft?


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> where are you getting the idea she'll need a 17hh draft?


If a 15hh horse isn't big enough for her dad, a 17hh might do.


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## Ebonyisforme (Oct 23, 2013)

I meant 14 and a half not actually 5 inches, haha. 14.2 if you want to be technical about it.  We have decided against breeding Belle, though.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Roman said:


> If a 15hh horse isn't big enough for her dad, a 17hh might do.


There are a LOT of inches between 15 and 17 hh . . .


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